# Aokiji vs The Thing (Benjamin Jacob Grimm)



## Hakan Erkan (Jul 16, 2012)

Bloodlusted
No CIS/PIS

Who wins?


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## AfterGlow (Jul 16, 2012)

ICE AAAAAAAGE!


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 16, 2012)

Aokiji better not let Ben get a hand on him

though he shouldn't be that fast

but regular ice will be easily broken


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 16, 2012)

Ben bulldozes through the guys Ice and gets into melee 

really Aokiji can't do much to him conversely I'm not sure if Ben can perm put down Aokiji maybe KO  or something


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## AfterGlow (Jul 16, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Ben bulldozes through the guys Ice and gets into melee
> 
> really Aokiji can't do much to him conversely I'm not sure if Ben can perm put down Aokiji maybe KO  or something



How does he bulldoze something when his cells are frozen solid?


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## Chuck (Jul 16, 2012)

Aokiji should keep the ice coming to make sure


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 16, 2012)

he's made of rock

and Aokiji needs physical contact for Ice Time

yep


*Spoiler*: __


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jul 16, 2012)

It's clobbering time.

ck


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## Zihawk (Jul 16, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Ben bulldozes through the guys Ice and gets into melee
> 
> really Aokiji can't do much to him conversely I'm not sure if Ben can perm put down Aokiji maybe KO  or something



The ice itself isn't the problem, Aokiji sucks heat out of a system which is what makes it so deadly and is the reason why he can remove a gigaton of energy from an ocean and freeze it. I have no doubt that Ben would rip him a new one if he got close enough, but he's not a speedster, and Aokiji is more than fast enough to play keep away and keep using ice age until his body shuts down and he freezes. Does Ben have any cold resistance feats?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 16, 2012)




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## eaebiakuya (Jul 16, 2012)

I think Ben have a feat against absolute 0.

Aokiji cant hurt or froze Ben, imo. BUT, he can win via spamming ice in his mouth.Ben needs to breathe.

Aokiji is much faster than the thing imo.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 16, 2012)

AfterGlow said:


> How does he bulldoze something when his cells are frozen solid?



lol why are his cells Frozen solid? What makes you think he can affect someone as tough as Ben easily?

are you from the OP battledome?




Zihawk said:


> The ice itself isn't the problem, Aokiji sucks heat out of a system which is what makes it so deadly and is the reason why he can remove a gigaton of energy from an ocean and freeze it. I have no doubt that Ben would rip him a new one if he got close enough, but he's not a speedster, and Aokiji is more than fast enough to play keep away and keep using ice age until his body shuts down and he freezes. Does Ben have any cold resistance feats?



Ben isn't a speedster? What? The guys T clapped ICBM's out of the sky blown away rockets... Ben isn't a speedster? He may not be a speeding brick in the traditional Thor/Superman sense but the guy is more than fast enough to react to HST characters- at least in terms of reaction time

He's also got an AOE thunderclap that Aokiji is absolutely not tough enough to tank..he'll be blasted into tiny fragments


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 16, 2012)

how fast are Ben's reactions ? I thought he's like supersonic at best lol


if he's hypersonic+ reactions then he shouldn't have much problems here


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## Zihawk (Jul 16, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> lol why are his cells Frozen solid? What makes you think he can affect someone as tough as Ben easily?
> 
> are you from the OP battledome?
> 
> ...




How powerful is that thunderclap? Cause Aokiji has city level durability due to taking a quake from WB and he fought evenly with Akainu for 10 days, another character with city level durability. I don't care how durable the Thing is, unless he's got some great freezing resistance, he's getting frozen.


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## the box (Jul 16, 2012)

Aokiji eventually tires and freezes ben. this is the man that froze a tsuname is ben grimm really that physically strong?


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 16, 2012)

It is fucking clobbering time.

Before you even argue jack shit Ben is resistant to extreme temperatures.

So unless Aokiji can conjure up some Adamantium or suddenly hit as hard as the Hulk he gets clobbered.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 16, 2012)

> is ben grimm really that physically strong?


yes he   is


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## Glued (Jul 16, 2012)

Ben Grimm broke out of an ice prison by some guy named Paibok the Power Skrull. Anyways Paibok was approaching temperatures of Absolute Zero. Ben broke out.

Anyways, goodbye to you all (Maybe), I have to start my new life in Grad school. I must resist my addiction to this forum.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 16, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Ben Grimm broke out of an ice prison by some guy named Paibok the Power Skrull. Anyways Paibok was approaching temperatures of Absolute Zero. Ben broke out.
> 
> Anyways, goodbye to you all (Maybe), I have to start my new life in Grad school. I must resist my addiction to this forum.


 but who's gonna smack da Hulk if you're gone ?


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 16, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Ben Grimm broke out of an ice prison by some guy named Paibok the Power Skrull. Anyways Paibok was approaching temperatures of Absolute Zero. Ben broke out.
> 
> Anyways, goodbye to you all (Maybe), I have to start my new life in Grad school. I must resist my addiction to this forum.



You will be back. You cant resist my charm .


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 16, 2012)

Zihawk said:


> How powerful is that thunderclap? Cause Aokiji has city level durability due to taking a quake from WB and he fought evenly with Akainu for 10 days, another character with city level durability. I don't care how durable the Thing is, unless he's got some great freezing resistance, he's getting frozen.



powerful enough to bust Doom up and his shields too as in too much for any HST character

besides that he's got his bare hands and his durability and damage soak is top notch

Aokiji can;t put him down before Ben starts trying to punt him into orbit




Fluttershy said:


> how fast are Ben's reactions ? I thought he's like supersonic at best lol
> 
> 
> if he's hypersonic+ reactions then he shouldn't have much problems here



even if he isn't hypersonic it doesn't matter Aokiji can't hurt him bad enough to stop Ben from clapping his hands



the box said:


> Aokiji eventually tires and freezes ben. this is the man that froze a tsuname is *ben grimm really that physically strong?*



yes



Ben Grimm said:


> Ben Grimm broke out of an ice prison by some guy named Paibok the Power Skrull. Anyways Paibok was approaching temperatures of Absolute Zero. Ben broke out.
> 
> Anyways, goodbye to you all (Maybe), I have to start my new life in Grad school. I must resist my addiction to this forum.



You will be missed..your knowledge and your love of the 80's and 90's of animation was vital to this place


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jul 16, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> powerful enough to bust Doom up and his shields too as in too much for any HST character



Doom took a mountain busting projectile without a scratch in Secret Wars too


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 16, 2012)

I'm going to go with the guy that can defeat S class Demons (albeit, after a long fight apparently).

He's a durable fuck apparently with a fuckton of endurance.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 16, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Doom took a mountain busting projectile without a scratch in Secret Wars too



Ben punching above mountain busting? not bad

I can just taste the butthurt from the "durr hurr it's biased when Ben rolfstomps Naruto guys" camp



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I'm going to go with the guy that can defeat S class Demons (albeit, after a long fight apparently).
> 
> He's a durable fuck apparently with a fuckton of endurance.



expert in h2h as well


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## Lina Inverse (Jul 17, 2012)

In b4 Worthy Thing


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## eaebiakuya (Jul 17, 2012)

A Thunderclap destroy Dr. Doom force field is PIS. The Thing would need punch it several times, to MAY destroy.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 17, 2012)

Ben has resisted absolute 0. Ben Grimm crushed Reed's machine which generated the force of a small mountain, he's gotten stronger since. Aokiji's ice is not cold enough to stop Ben, so if the temperature won't do it, itcomes down to whether it's a strong enough prison to hold someone of Ben's strength or not because if not, Ben can take it.


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## Estrecca (Jul 17, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Ben has resisted absolute 0. Ben Grimm crushed Reed's machine which generated the force of a small mountain, he's gotten stronger since. Aokiji's ice is not cold enough to stop Ben, so if the temperature won't do it, itcomes down to whether it's a strong enough prison to hold someone of Ben's strength or not because if not, Ben can take it.



The Thing has been incapacitated by being encased in ice a number of times, back in the day, though the only incident for which I have readily available scans is Basilisk vs The Thing (from either Marvel Team-Up or Marvel Two-in-One). 



Shortly after this image, Basilisk starts generating heat with his body and that unfreezes Ben (who wasn't harmed by the icing, but couldn't break out with his strength). I reckon that Aokiji could do the same, at least against pre-pineapple incarnations of Grimm.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Yeah, not seeing Aokiji winning this if the fucker can defeat characters that solo the fucking HST.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

I reaaaaaally don't see how a mountain+ T+ guy can't break out of something like Ice Ball


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 17, 2012)

Estrecca said:


> The Thing has been incapacitated by being encased in ice a number of times, back in the day, though the only incident for which I have readily available scans is Basilisk vs The Thing (from either Marvel Team-Up or Marvel Two-in-One).
> 
> 
> 
> Shortly after this image, Basilisk starts generating heat with his body and that unfreezes Ben (who wasn't harmed by the icing, but couldn't break out with his strength). I reckon that Aokiji could do the same, at least against pre-pineapple incarnations of Grimm.



Nice to see you back and active Estrecca

and Bens gotten a bit beefier and tougher since then and as other have pointed out has better resistance feats


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## Estrecca (Jul 17, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and Bens gotten a bit beefier and tougher since then and as other have pointed out has better resistance feats



Hence pre-pineapple, which if memory serves was Ben's first big upgrade. I am not sufficently informed about pineapple and post-pineapple Thing up to the present to weigh about stuff there.


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## Edward Newgate (Jul 17, 2012)

Aokiji freezes to the bone. I don't see how The Thing is going to survive that.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 17, 2012)

Edward Newgate said:


> Aokiji freezes to the bone. I don't see how The Thing is going to survive that.



reread the thread he's resisted near absolute zero before


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

What exactly will melee do against ice?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 17, 2012)

I'm calling tie, they both can't really hurt each other.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> I'm calling tie, they both can't really hurt each other.



Aokiji's never tanked a blow on the level ben grimm can produce.

If he can, not seeing how Ben's ever going to hurt Yusuke Mike.

Yes, that's kind of relevant, given I'm constantly told he can defeat characters that flatten the HST.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

lawlogias immune to physical/punching damage (maybe up to something like at least ~mountain+ for the solid Aokiji, but much higher for Kizaru, since the man is made of light after all)


that's how it is these days Chaos


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## Endless Mike (Jul 17, 2012)

Well unless the punch is strong enough to send every fragment of his body so far away from each other that they can't reform...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Well unless the punch is strong enough to send every fragment of his body so far away from each other that they can't reform...



So Ben doesn't have that sort of firepower?

Because from the sounds of it, he should.

So, not seeing how Ben Grimm can't scatter his ass.

Let's also consider the fact he could break aokiji into particles small enough that he hasn't been shown to regen from (which, given the level of energy Ben should be exerting, would easily happen)


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## eaebiakuya (Jul 17, 2012)

Guys, if it is a tie(about phisical damage), why AoKiji cant win via spamming Ice in the Thing mouth and lungs ???


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Well unless the punch is strong enough to send every fragment of his body so far away from each other that they can't reform...



Which still doesn't make much sense because the punch wouldn't cover a surface area big enough to affect every fragment. Especially in logia, who's bodies have large surface areas in elemental form.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> What exactly will melee do against ice?



Are you implying WW Hulk couldnt crush Aokiji?


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Are you implying WW Hulk couldnt crush Aokiji?



My thoughts were expressed more correctly in the post that followed mine (regarding the ice logia, anyway)


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

eaebiakuya said:


> Guys, if it is a tie(about phisical damage), why AoKiji cant win via spamming Ice in the Thing mouth and lungs ???



Because Mike's talking out his ass and wrong here in this case, barring the possibility he's exaggerated all The Things feats in representation to me in the past?



Black Leg Sanji said:


> Are you implying WW Hulk couldnt crush Aokiji?



Who knows right?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Are you implying WW Hulk couldnt crush Aokiji?


WWH vs the admirals

a fair match


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

It's over Naruto and Bleach fans. 

Logia can know survive country busting punches.

Kizura can even survive a plant buster because light can't be hit.


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> It's over Naruto and Bleach fans.
> 
> Logia can know survive country busting punches.
> 
> Kizura can even survive a plant buster because light can't be hit.



Can it be hit? Am I missing something here?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

why stop at planet


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Can it be hit? Am I missing something here?



Light are made up of photons........... how many characters in fiction can hit photons?



Fluttershy said:


> why stop at planet



And what do you say the upper limit is?


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Light are made up of photons........... how many characters in fiction can hit photons?



Only characters that have some sort of ability that lets them hit intangible things. Of course this includes reality warpers and the sort.


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Only characters that have some sort of ability that lets them hit intangible things. Of course this includes reality warpers and the sort.





And do you have any idea how limited characters that can hit intangibles are?  Let's not even get into the amount of reality warpers in fiction.

What your basically implying here is that Kizaru can stalemate a end of series DBZ character or even higher depending on the verse.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Which still doesn't make much sense because the punch wouldn't cover a surface area big enough to affect every fragment. Especially in logia, who's bodies have large surface areas in elemental form.



This is also what I was getting at


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> This is also what I was getting at



Where the fuck do you think the rest of the energy will go? 

Of course the rest of the body is going to get fucked over


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## eaebiakuya (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Because Mike's talking out his ass and wrong here in this case, barring the possibility he's exaggerated all The Things feats in representation to me in the past?
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows right?



You said sometimes here: the Thing beat guys who can destroy the HST. Right, but he alredy lost a fight against Narutoverse in OBD.

Thing is powerfull but he dont have any versatibility. 

Some guy weaker than the Thing, but who can attack with big energy blasts could beat Aokiji...


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> And do you have any idea how limited characters that can hit intangibles are?  Let's not even get into the amount of reality warpers in fiction.
> 
> What your basically implying here is that Kizaru can stalemate a end of series DBZ character or even higher depending on the verse.



What I'm getting at is... yeah, OBD puts limitations so people don't whine...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

eaebiakuya said:


> You said sometimes here: the Thing beat guys who can destroy the HST. Right, but he alredy lost a fight against Narutoverse in OBD.



Don't see how.



> Thing is powerfull but he dont have any versatibility.



That's nice.

Aokiji's going to have a bitch of a time freezing a guy that's handled far colder temperatures without issues.



> Some guy weaker than the Thing, but who can attack with big energy blasts could beat Aokiji...



The Thing is packing enough energy to pulp Aokiji, regardless of logia bullshit.

How energy is transferred doesn't differ from attack to attack.

He won't enjoy a punch from the thing, for he'll be in chunks so small, he can't reform, or he'll be scattered to the winds.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> What I'm getting at is... yeah, OBD puts limitations so people don't whine...





Wow... that's hilarious that you seem to genuinely confuse a no limits fallacy for arbitrary limitations.

Feats or gtfo shouldn't be that hard for you cunts to grasp.


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> What I'm getting at is... yeah, OBD puts limitations so people don't whine...



What your doing is going straight into no-limits fallacy.  

Logias have never been shown to regen from anything above mountian busting much less a planet buster.

And I find it absolutely hilarious how you implied that logia's were intangible in your previous post.  

Also your a dumb enough cunt to think that me questioning your statement is whining.  Wow, but what can you expect from someone that can't grasp that pedos are bad.


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## eaebiakuya (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Don't see how.


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Wow... that's hilarious that you seem to genuinely confuse a no limits fallacy for arbitrary limitations.
> 
> Feats or gtfo shouldn't be that hard for you cunts to grasp.



Let me um... give you an analogy. 
_A birth is flying in the air and suddenly an earthquake strikes. What is going to happen to the bird? Nothing. How much damage is it going to take? 0. Now a second earthquake strikes, but this one is 10 times stronger than the last. What is going to happen to the bird? Nothing. How much damage is it going to take? 0._

EDIT: Huntring, seriously? How old are you? You are seriously going to bring up a complete different topic, one that has already been settled, just to decrease my credibility? 

I never said you were whining, and I never said all logia were intangible. _Light_ is intangible.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> _Light_ is intangible.



His feats don't really suggest much in the way that he's real light.

Until he behaves like real light, he's far from "intangible"


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> His feats don't really suggest much in the way that he's real light.
> 
> Until he behaves like real light, he's far from "intangible"



He said he was a "light man", in the sense that Aokiji is an "ice man" and Smoker is a "smoke man" and Enel is a "lightning man", and that has yet to be contradicted. 

But I see you've changed your argument from "Things will eventually damage light" to "Kizaru isn't really light".


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> EDIT: Huntring, seriously? How old are you? You are seriously going to bring up a complete different topic, one that has already been settled, just to decrease my credibility?



Considering part of debating is to decrease the oppositions creditability, yes I think I will bring that up.  

Plus you accused me of whining which while a rather weak insult, is still a insult non the less.  



> I never said you were whining, and I never said all logia were intangible. _Light_ is intangible.



You clearly said that I was whining:



			
				Zengetto said:
			
		

> What I'm getting at is... yeah, OBD puts limitations so people don't *whine*...



And light isn't as intangible as you might think.  It can still be blocked or even trapped.


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## eaebiakuya (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Aokiji's going to have a bitch of a time freezing a guy that's handled far colder temperatures without issues.



He cant freeze Bem Grimm. But he can spam ice in his mouth. The Thing needs to breathe. He can stand without oxygen for 6 - 8 minutes.


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Considering part of debating is to decrease the oppositions creditability, yes I think I will bring that up.



No. Debating is about debunking the opponent's argument. What you're doing is called Ad Hominem (I believe).



Huntring said:


> Plus you accused me of whining which while a rather weak insult, is still a insult non the less.
> 
> 
> 
> You clearly said that I was whining:



Yeah, clearly I said "Huntring is whining." That wasn't even directed to anyone in this thread. Besides, it was more to say that people will whine if characters from comparable verses (in power) have a trait that puts them way out of other's league.




Huntring said:


> And light isn't as intangible as you might think.  It can still be blocked or even trapped.



in?tan?gi?ble   [in-tan-juh-buhl]  Show IPA
adjective
1.
not tangible; incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch, as incorporeal or immaterial things; impalpable.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> He said he was a "light man", in the sense that Aokiji is an "ice man" and Smoker is a "smoke man" and Enel is a "lightning man", and that has yet to be contradicted.



The fact any attacks at all have caused him to need to be reconstructed at all prove otherwise. 

From characters that haven't proven to possess Haki.



> But I see you've changed your argument from "Things will eventually damage light" to "Kizaru isn't really light".



Nah, that's always been part of my argument.

It comes in 2 parts buddy, its just not relevant here.

And whether it changes or not is irrelevant anyway, so why bother pointing it out.



eaebiakuya said:


> He cant freeze Bem Grimm. But he can spam ice in his mouth. The Thing needs to breathe. He can stand without oxygen for 6 - 8 minutes.



Because the thing will let him?


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## Xaosin (Jul 17, 2012)

Decisive question, what's the upper limits to a logias regeneration and circumstances surrounding it. Like if Ben mountain punched aokijis head into space, you'd assume he would just grow a new head. But what about if everything above his waist was punched apart? How about his kneecaps? And like people have said, if every bone in his body is shattered and blown miles apart, where is he regenerating from? Also what kind of AoE of affect can ben do with his herculean strength?

Also kizaru has been blown up before. Hes somewhat tangible, unless light can be physically blown up somehow.


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> From characters that haven't proven to possess Haki.



You mean the one time, from the one attack, from the one character that we are still completely unsure of the properties of his fruit? Apoo? That attack?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> You mean the one time, from the one attack, from the one character that we are still completely unsure of the properties of his fruit? Apoo? That attack?



Its sound you stupid fuck.

you know, vibrations that travel through the fucking air?

You're all kinds of dense aren't you?

guess what shouldn't be interacting with him if he were made of photons?


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> No. Debating is about debunking the opponent's argument. What you're doing is called Ad Hominem (I believe).



Ad Hominem would be if I was insulting you on the basis that I can't refute your arguement.  And part of debunking the opponent's arguement is destroying their creditability.  



> Yeah, clearly I said "Huntring is whining." That wasn't even directed to anyone in this thread. Besides, it was more to say that people will whine if characters from comparable verses (in power) have a trait that puts them way out of other's league.



Considering that you were quoting me, yes I think anyone would get the impression that you were referring to me.  



> in?tan?gi?ble   [in-tan-juh-buhl]  Show IPA
> adjective
> 1.
> not tangible; incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch, as incorporeal or immaterial things; impalpable.



And light isn't incorporeal or immaterial so thanks for proving me right.


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## Xaosin (Jul 17, 2012)

He was also intercepted by silver. And marco and vista.So unless were going. With the LOLHAKI argument every time,  there have been multiple instances where hes been hurt or attacked.


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Its sound you stupid fuck.
> 
> you know, vibrations that travel through the fucking air?
> 
> ...



And sounds has been shown to cause random explosions? Obviously he isn't just sending sound at people. Last I heard sounds doesn't slice people's limbs off either. The insults were completely uncalled for. Here we are having a seemingly meaningful argument and all of a sudden you call me a stupid fuck.



Huntring said:


> Ad Hominem would be if I was insulting you on the basis that I can't refute your arguement.  And part of debunking the opponent's arguement is destroying their creditability.



Not really, who told you that? 
Even if it was, you bringing up me defending low lives is the completely wrong way to do it.



Huntring said:


> Considering that you were quoting me, yes I think anyone would get the impression that you were referring to me.



Well you were wrong to assume that I was accusing you of whining. Let's leave it at that.



Huntring said:


> And light isn't incorporeal or immaterial so thanks for proving me right.



That really wasn't the part I wanted you to focus on. "incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch," " impalpable."


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> The insults were completely uncalled for. Here we are having a seemingly meaningful argument and all of a sudden you call me a stupid fuck.
> 
> Not really, who told you that?
> Even if it was, you bringing up me defending low lives is the completely wrong way to do it.



Quit the whining and take your whiping like a man


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## eaebiakuya (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Because the thing will let him?



Since he is faster and can attack from distance, i cant see why he cant.

Also Thing alredy fighted a guy called Sandman (spider man villan) in comics and was unable do hurt him via punches.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> And sounds has been shown to cause random explosions?



Nope, but the sound is the basis for where the explosion begins (though he shouldn't be effected by a spontaneous combustion at all if he were made of real photons regardless, that seems to be eluding you).

He's tangible enough to be effected by a hakiless ability, he's not real light.



> Obviously he isn't just sending sound at people.



Not particularly relevant.



> Last I heard sounds doesn't slice people's limbs off either.



He shouldn't be effected by a hakiless ability at all, the fact we know jack about the ability is irrelevant.



> The insults were completely uncalled for. Here we are having a seemingly meaningful argument and all of a sudden you call me a stupid fuck.



I can't say that I'm sorry, that'd kind of be a lie.

I can get a bit heated in debates, it happens, just move on with your life.

Seriously, don't bother mentioning it, just report it if it bothers you so much.


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## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Quit the whining and take your whiping like a man



This "whiping" you speak of, it's complete irrelevant and has no place in the debate.


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:
			
		

> Not really, who told you that?
> Even if it was, you bringing up me defending low lives is the completely wrong way to do it.



Considering that I haven't ripped on you nearly enough you should be rather thankful.  



> Well you were wrong to assume that I was accusing you of whining. Let's leave it at that.



Word it better next time.  



> That really wasn't the part I wanted you to focus on. "incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch," " impalpable."



Except the other parts are in the definition to so in order for light to be intangiable it has to fulfill every part of the definition.  You can't just conviently ignore one part of the definition in favor of the other parts just so it can suit your ends.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

eaebiakuya said:


> Since he is faster and can attack from distance, i cant see why he cant.



He's faster?

how so?

I don't know the thing, but hearsay says this isn't true.



> Also Thing alredy fighted a guy called Sandman (spider man villan) in comics and was unable do hurt him via punches.



Irrelevant.

Just because one author doesn't take the laws of physics into account, doesn't mean we don't when applicable.

his punches are energetic enough to shatter mountains apparently, that's more than Aokiji's ever hoped to tank until now.

and something about a thunder clap.


----------



## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> And light isn't incorporeal or immaterial so thanks for proving me right.





Huntring said:


> Except the other parts are in the definition to so in order for light to be intangiable it has to fulfill every part of the definition.  You can't just conviently ignore one part of the definition in favor of the other parts just so it can suit your ends.



Considering the words incorporeal and immaterial are concepts used to describe concepts, they don't really apply to things in the physical world and are not traditionally used in the description of an intangible thing in the physical world. The definitions of those two words that do apply to the physical world also apply to light.


----------



## eaebiakuya (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> He's faster?
> 
> how so?
> 
> I don't know the thing, but hearsay says this isn't true.



From OBD Wiki: The God Of High School

The God Of High School

Thing: peak human
Aokiji: hypersonic +

You may find some "reactions" feats or he punching someone with super speed, PIS, imo), but i think he dont have any feats about moviment speed(only some jumps).


----------



## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Considering the words incorporeal and immaterial are concepts used to describe concepts, they don't really apply to things in the physical world and are not traditionally used in the description of an intangible thing in the physical world. The definitions of those two words that do apply to the physical world also apply to light.



So basically you'll ignore two key words in the official definition because they don't suit your definition of intangibility.

Ok.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

eaebiakuya said:


> From OBD Wiki: The God Of High School
> 
> The God Of High School
> 
> ...



The comic entries are down right deceitful about stats to my knowledge.

Don't bother referencing them.

and I don't care about your opinion, just the argument.


----------



## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> So basically you'll ignore two key words in the official definition because they don't suit your definition of intangibility.
> 
> Ok.



I don't think you understood what you just quoted, but please don't tell me that you think light is tangible.


----------



## Gomu (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> So basically you'll ignore two key words in the official definition because they don't suit your definition of intangibility.
> 
> Ok.



Ben Grimm wins. However I didn't really come here for that.

Hunt. You need to watch your language. Zen hasn't cursed at you and you haven't shown feats all you've been doing is agreeing with everyone else. Just watch your language. You're not a little kid, you shouldn't have to curse like you're trying to be a man. Show the feats to prove him wrong.

But yes. Benn Grim wins, anyone that is capable of holding there own against the Hulk for even a moment when he's angered should have a large degree of physical force and power w/ endurance and damage soak.


----------



## Es (Jul 17, 2012)

> Hunt. You need to watch your language. Zen hasn't cursed at you and you haven't shown feats all you've been doing is agreeing with everyone else. Just watch your language. You're not a little kid, you shouldn't have to curse like you're trying to be a man. Show the feats to prove him wrong


Lol Gomu                .


----------



## Amae (Jul 17, 2012)

Stop using bad words, people.



> The comic entries are down right deceitful about stats to my knowledge.



Exactly how fast is Ben?


----------



## Gomu (Jul 17, 2012)

Es said:


> Lol Gomu                .



Got something to say. Please say it.


----------



## Es (Jul 17, 2012)

It's all that is needed for one as pathetic as yourself


----------



## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> I don't think you understood what you just quoted, but please don't tell me that you think light is tangible.




Can light phase through walls? No.

Can light be trapped by a solid surrounding it from all sides? yes.

What do you infer from what I just said, what I think?



			
				Gomu said:
			
		

> Hunt. You need to watch your language. Zen hasn't cursed at you and you haven't shown feats all you've been doing is agreeing with everyone else. Just watch your language. You're not a little kid, you shouldn't have to curse like you're trying to be a man. Show the feats to prove him wrong.



I don't have to prove him wrong on anything.  He's the one trying to prove that Kizaru can survive a planet buster.  Burden of Proof is on him.

And I found it incrediably ironic that you of all people is telling me to watch my language.  And why don't you tell of Chaos considering that he's been cussing at Zengetto far more than me?


----------



## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Well I guess Kizaru isn't a light man as he said he was. Could have fooled me... 

EDIT: Huntring, can you touch light? Can you grab it? Since when does something have to phase through walls to be intangible? And how do you go about trapping it inside something?


----------



## Gomu (Jul 17, 2012)

Es said:


> It's all that is needed for one as pathetic as yourself



I'm pathetic now. Huh. Is that all you had to say instead of adding in constructive criticism? You call yourself a person that thinks he can judge others as good or bad. To be called pathetic by you is to hear the voice of a useless echo in the wind. A nobody? What are you? All I've seen from you are short posts with no substance often trying to humiliate others. You may want to reexamine the word "pathetic".



> I don't have to prove him wrong on anything.  He's the one trying to prove that Kizaru can survive a planet buster.  Burden of Proof is on him.
> 
> And I found it incrediably ironic that you of all people is telling me to watch my language.  And why don't you tell of Chaos considering that he's been cussing at Zengetto far more than me?



Chaos has been cursing yes. He also has given a standing on how and why it would be idiotic for Zengetto to think otherwise of the power from Benn Grim. All you've done again is agree with other people, using the weight of their words as your own instead of showing your own thesis of why you consider Aokiji not surviving a strike from Benn Grimm.

Just saying what your language if you're not going to show your work, don't just agree with people unless you also understand the character in question.


----------



## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> EDIT: Huntring, can you touch light? Can you grab it? Since when does something have to phase through walls to be intangible? And how do you go about trapping it inside something?



It's true that light is can't be touched by humans, but that doesn't mean that it's intangible by any stretch of the word.

Considering that part of the definition of intangible is being immaterial, yes a thing will have to phase through the wall for it to be intangible.  

Put lightbulb that's on in a box.  Then seal the box with ducktape.  See if any light comes out.





Gomu said:


> Chaos has been cursing yes. He also has given a standing on how and why it would be idiotic for Zengetto to think otherwise of the power from Benn Grim. All you've done again is agree with other people, using the weight of their words as your own instead of showing your own thesis of why you consider Aokiji not surviving a strike from Benn Grimm.
> 
> Just saying what your language if you're not going to show your work, don't just agree with people unless you know also understand the character in question.



Where I'm I agreeing with people?  I'm disputing Zengetto's claims.  That's all.


----------



## Es (Jul 17, 2012)

> I'm pathetic now. Huh. Is that all you had to say instead of adding in constructive criticism? You call yourself a person that thinks he can judge others as good or bad. To be called pathetic by you is to hear the voice of a useless echo in the wind. A nobody? What are you? All I've seen from you are short posts with no substance often trying to humiliate others. You may want to reexamine the word "pathetic".


One post is more then enough to point out your shit seeing how emotional your getting.  Instead of playing innocent victim why don't you try improving?


----------



## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Hell the OBD wiki page for the definition of intangibility even specifically adresses logias here:

Link removed


----------



## Gomu (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Where I'm I agreeing with people?  I'm disputing Zengetto's claims.  That's all.



Whatever you say just dumb it down. You've proven your point correct? If it's correct you shouldn't have to say much else. It's not a war it's a debate. You won't die if you leave the topic alone.



> One post is more then enough to point out your shit seeing how emotional your getting. Instead of playing victim why don't you try improving?



I've improved a lot actually. It's you who've been doing the same old stuff. You've done this a lot in the past. Came into a debate posted one-liners about how "someones so terrible" and laughed at them. You're not much of a debater though so I understand that you follow instead of lead debates which I also understand. Again. You should really "re-evaluate pathetic". Criticize me all you wish, but you're still gonna be the same person before or after the post. The same one that follows instead of leads.


----------



## eaebiakuya (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> and I don't care about your opinion, just the argument.



Im another thread you posted : _There's also something called consistency and outliers dude._

Thing was blitzed by guys with super speed many times. He was blitzed by a quicksilver who had nothing more than 150 mph. He never was portayed as a guy with super speed. If in one or two issues he hit someone with SP, because of PIS, is a outlier, dont ?

The funny thing is : If  Aokiji fights against Spider-man, no one will say Peter is faster. And in comics he is MUCH faster than the Thing. But in OBD Thing > Peter in speed and reactions ???


----------



## Zeno (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> It's true that light is can't be touched by humans, but that doesn't mean that it's intangible by any stretch of the word.
> 
> Considering that part of the definition of intangible is being immaterial, yes a thing will have to phase through the wall for it to be intangible.



Light does not occupy space. You cannot feel, taste, hear, smell or touch it. You can only see it. In a battle, Kizaru, for all intents and purposes, is practically intangible.



Huntring said:


> Hell the OBD wiki page for the definition of intangibility even specifically adresses logias here:
> 
> Here



The wiki addresses logias in a general term, but fails to recognize the exceptions, such as Kizaru, and to some degree Enel. 

You earlier mentioned that intangible things phase through solid objects, but so does light, so long as the object is translucent.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 17, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Quit the whining and take your whiping like a man



You're asking the impossible




eaebiakuya said:


> Since he is faster and can attack from distance, i cant see why he cant.
> 
> Also Thing alredy fighted a guy called Sandman (spider man villan) in comics and *was unable do hurt him via punche*s.



low end showing considering his T clap busted up Dooms defenses once




Zengetto said:


> This "whiping" you speak of, it's complete irrelevant and has no place in the debate.



Umm no this whipping he is speaking of *is* the debate seeing as your being brutally beaten on here and have no defense




Zengetto said:


> What exactly will melee do against ice?



...Hulk verses Aokiji



Endless Mike said:


> Well unless the punch is strong enough to send every fragment of his body so far away from each other *that they can't reform*...



Don't see why he shouldn't be able too given some of his better feats




Zengetto said:


> Only characters that have some sort of ability that lets them hit intangible things. Of course this includes reality warpers and the sort.



,,,that's retarded you just claimed only reality warpers can handle OP characters

get out 




eaebiakuya said:


> You said sometimes here: the Thing beat guys who can destroy the HST. Right, but he alredy lost a fight against *Narutoverse in OBD.*



You mean the thread where FireEel bawwed? This is the same guy who argued  Lee would beat a chimp out of nationalistic pride and his companion was a rep abusing former phenom brigade member who should have been perm sectioned banned from the obd years ago



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Don't see how.
> 
> 
> .



he's talking out of his ass as per usual




Zengetto said:


> What I'm getting at is... yeah, OBD puts limitations so people don't whine...


\

You have officially lost your credibility now and forever more in this section and I will make sure..this moment is not lived down until you atone for it.

The Logia no limits Fallacy bullshit is discounted here because this is a feat based debate system dude...We go by what's shown and nothing more

no Logia has shown it can withstand the force Ben can dish out unless you care to prove otherwise


eaebiakuya said:


> From OBD Wiki: Link removed
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



and just like the last time this came up you were told under no uncertain terms to stop using the wiki as if it was scripture

you have shown a repeated history of biased in this topic and are not qualified nor credible.. enough to continue



Huntring said:


> So basically you'll ignore two key words in the official definition because they don't suit your definition of intangibility.
> 
> Ok.



So we can add being a total liar to his list of charges too huh?



Gomu said:


> Ben Grimm wins. However I didn't really come here for that.
> 
> Hunt. You need to watch your language. Zen hasn't cursed at you and you haven't shown feats all you've been doing is agreeing with everyone else. Just watch your language. You're not a little kid, you shouldn't have to curse like you're trying to be a man. Show the feats to prove him wrong.
> .



take your white knighting ass out of this thread



Es said:


> What                                ?



translation = ES exposed me as a petulant emotional cripple who has to take up pet causes and white knight against perceived abuses (when the alleged victims are doing much, much worse and more overall damage to the forum) and made me look like an utter fool, so now I have to type a convoluted post to try and snipe at him from a position of (faux) moral superiority 

Gomu, look I'm not one of the movers and shakers of this forum,  Hell I'm probably not even the best of the mid tier debaters- but what I am is experienced I've been all over the damn vs debate community and seen a lot of stupid and crazy shit (any one who's seen some of my posts in the LOL thread can attest to this)and some quality too. I've been a mod, I've been a "rabble rousing regular" I've been at the receiving end of the same treatment you've been receiving...I've been on all sides of then coin..so why don't you sit down and listen to some words of..maybe not wisdom but experience.

You think your disliked because you are provoking the in crowd, the clique, that you are doing a service to the forum and the memberbase by trying to fight what you perceive to be the cruelty or malice or whatever you wanna call it of the "lolhivemind" you like to sit there..and talk down to your detractors and claim that you are coming from a position of moral superiority and that you're somehow the one who's doing the right thing and you can try and rationalize their contempt of you away as "oh well you people are just bullies being put in their place"

The problem with that is, you have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA, none whatsoever about whats right or wrong in this situation, on this forum on this section, in this tumultuous time. That complete and utter lack of experience or "_situation awareness_" coupled with the fact that you are retaliating for minor and ultimately utterly meaningless slights against you..make you completely unable to rationally see things for what they are.

People don't give you flak because you're doing the right thing, they give you flak because you're a clueless frustrated petty debater who is coat tailing the mods in an extremely sensitive and dangerous time when your brand of blind and utterly reckless white knighting can do more harm to this entire section then the people you think are the real threats, and has absolutely no business complaining in the first place because honestly..you got off god damn easy and it seems like you were given plenty of slack.

TLDR: your the problem not the solution..shut your mouth, lurk a little more learn a little bit and calm down and come back with a fresh perspective..and if you can't do that.. take the OBD off your favorite list and enjoy the myriad of other sections on this forum...because you've proven yourself to be a hindrance  not an asset


----------



## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Light does not occupy space. You cannot feel, taste, hear, smell or touch it. You can only see it.



Whether or not light occupies space is actually controversial and since I'm not that big on science I won't bother debating that.  



> In a battle, Kizaru, for all intents and purposes, is practically intangible.



And Chaos already adressed this.  You didn't refute him.  



> The wiki addresses logias in a general term, but fails to recognize the exceptions, such as Kizaru, and to some degree Enel.



The wiki also makes it clear what intangiblity is defined as in the OBD.  Kizaru doesn't fit that definition.



> You earlier mentioned that intangible things phase through solid objects, but so does light, so long as the object is translucent.



Know your just grasping at straws.  Light can go through translucent objects, just fine.  That's true.  But that still doesn't change the fact that light cannot phase through a solid wall for example hence light isn't intangible.


----------



## Zeno (Jul 18, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Umm no this whipping he is speaking of *is* the debate seeing as your being brutally beaten on here and have no defense



What are you talking about? This has absolutely nothing to do with the debate.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ...Hulk verses Aokiji



I wasn't trying to be witty. Believe or not, I actually didn't know what exactly melee would do to ice. I wasn't trying to say "lol logia".




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ,,,that's retarded you just claimed only reality warpers can handle OP characters
> 
> get out



No I didn't. Where the hell did you read that? Where was it even implied?



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> You have officially lost your credibility now and forever more in this section and I will make sure..this moment is not lived down until you atone for it.
> 
> The Logia no limits Fallacy bullshit is discounted here because this is a feat based debate system dude...We go by what's shown and nothing more
> 
> no Logia has shown it can withstand the force Ben can dish out unless you care to prove otherwise



Do I need to post my analogy about the bird and the earthquake again?




			
				Huntring said:
			
		

> The wiki also makes it clear what intangiblity is defined as in the OBD. Kizaru doesn't fit that definition.





			
				OBD wiki said:
			
		

> Intangible is defined as "unable to be perceived by the senses", but most commonly attributed to merely touch. This is a property certain characters have where they can make themselves immaterial, like a ghost, causing all enemy attacks to simply pass through them.



So far so good I would say.



			
				Huntring said:
			
		

> But that still doesn't change the fact that light cannot phase through a solid wall for example hence light isn't intangible.



You're missing my point. If light is able to pass through an object, how can it occupy space? How can it be grabbed?


----------



## eaebiakuya (Jul 18, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> You're asking the impossible
> low end showing considering his T clap busted up Dooms defenses once



You are saying : Thing is capable of bust Dr.Doom defenses with a Thunder clap. If you put that in any Comic versus forum, they will laugh at you.

That is cleary PIS. Maybe one of worst low showing of Dr.Doom.

Probably not even a Hulk T clap could destroy Doom defenses.



> Also Thing alredy fighted a guy called Sandman (spider man villan) in comics and was unable do hurt him via punches.



And its not low ending. In Marvel, Sandman just cant be hurted by punches, at least punches by Thing level.



> You mean the thread where FireEel bawwed? This is the same guy who argued Lee would beat a chimp out of nationalistic pride and his companion was a rep abusing former phenom brigade member who should have been perm sectioned banned from the obd years ago



No, i mean the thread where Tranquil Fury, Charcan and others respectable members said Narutoverse should beat the Thing. 

FireEel said Gaara should solo The Thing or something like that.

The link is here, and even you posted "everyone agreed Thing lose because soul fuck", and now you act like a naruto wanker said Narutoverse > Thing... weird, what i saw in the thread was a consensus.

And someone can explain this to me :

The funny thing is : If Aokiji fight against Spider-man, no one will say Peter is faster. And in comics he is MUCH faster than the Thing. But in OBD Thing > Peter in speed and reactions ???


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 18, 2012)

eaebiakuya said:


> You are saying : Thing is capable of bust Dr.Doom defenses with a Thunder clap. If you put that in any Comic versus forum, they will laugh at you.
> 
> That is cleary PIS. Maybe one of worst low showing of Dr.Doom.
> 
> Probably not even a Hulk T clap could destroy Doom defenses.



Low end showing and PIS because you say so?



Zengetto said:


> And its not low ending. In Marvel, Sandman just cant be hurted by punches, at least punches by Thing level.



all that proves is he's above logia 



Zengetto said:


> No, i mean the thread where Tranquil Fury, Charcan and others respectable members said Narutoverse should beat the Thing.



via soul rape and the like


Zengetto said:


> FireEel said Gaara should solo The Thing or something like that.
> 
> The link is here, and even you posted "everyone agreed Thing lose because soul fuck", and now you act like a naruto wanker said Narutoverse > Thing... weird, what i saw in the thread was a consensus.



given your intention and dishonesty 



Zengetto said:


> What are you talking about? This has absolutely nothing to do with the debate.



yes it does.. because it's a description of the debate



Zengetto said:


> No I didn't. Where the hell did you read that? Where was it even implied?





Zengetto said:


> Do I need to post my analogy about the bird and the earthquake again?



considering it has fuck all to do with the outcome of this match or your conduct


----------



## Zeno (Jul 18, 2012)

Come again? I think I misunderstood something...


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jul 18, 2012)

Are we using Standard Thing or can we use the strongest version? I can end this if its the latter.



.


----------



## Huntring (Jul 18, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> So far so good I would say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you have selective reading comprehansion or something?  Once again light isn't immaterial.





> You're missing my point. If light is able to pass through an object, how can it occupy space? How can it be grabbed?



And your once again instead of refuting my arguement your deflecting it with a question.  

Here's a fact.  Light can't phase through a solid wall.  You can't refute that.  Therefore light isn't intangible.  It's that simple.  Unless you want to argue something stupid like light has selective intangibility.  In which case I have no words.


----------



## eaebiakuya (Jul 18, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Low end showing and PIS because you say so?



No, because Dr. Doom force field had withstand against attacks far stronger than Thing Thunder Clap. And the Thing T-Clap dont have any others feats in that level (if it have, please post here).

Thing T-clap > Dr.Doom force field = massive PIS

I really would like to see if others guys with a good knowledge in comics book agree with you in this one ( Thing t-clap > Doom Shields).

In a thread here in OBD, people are arguing the Doom shield could stand against some Superman punches...

1 Superman punch >>>>>>>(infinite)>>>> Thing T-Clap





> via soul rape and the like
> given your intention and dishonesty



No, i just pointed to Chaos he alredy lost against narutoverse, since he was saying " he beat someone who can solo HST". 

I never said it was by brute force and i never said Aokiji could win via brute force.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 18, 2012)

Because Doom never upgrades his shielding or armor right?  the shielding that Ben fucked up clearly is the same as the one which can withstand Supermans blows right?

Come now


----------



## LazyWaka (Jul 18, 2012)

For the "intangible Kizaru debate", I believe we got "splash effects" from him when hit by un-hakified physical attacks during the war. Once when Luffy smashed bits of, iirc, pieces of a pole at him, and the other being when Whitebeard Slashed him with his Bisento (it didn't look like he was using haki).


----------



## Omnirix (Jul 18, 2012)

IIRC, didn't Ben and the Hulk created a nuclear explosion just by arm wrestling?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 18, 2012)

that may have been a gag feat but him doing stuff like mountain busting just by grappling iron man too hard near one lends credence to him generating that type of force


----------



## Zeno (Jul 18, 2012)

Huntring said:


> And your once again instead of refuting my arguement your deflecting it with a question.
> 
> Here's a fact.  Light can't phase through a solid wall.  You can't refute that.  Therefore light isn't intangible.  It's that simple.  Unless you want to argue something stupid like light has selective intangibility.  In which case I have no words.



Alright, have it your way. Kizaru isn't intangible. That still doesn't mean jack in the face of conventional attacks.



HachibiWaka said:


> For the "intangible Kizaru debate", I believe we got "splash effects" from him when hit by un-hakified physical attacks during the war. Once when Luffy smashed bits of, iirc, pieces of a pole at him, and the other being when Whitebeard Slashed him with his Bisento (it didn't look like he was using haki).



I don't know about the Luffy thing (might have an artistic thing?), but If WB slashed at Kizaru there is no doubt he was using haki.


----------



## LazyWaka (Jul 18, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> I don't know about the Luffy thing (might have an artistic thing?)



Link removed
Link removed

Yeah no, you cant sugar coat this. There were clearly pieces of him missing.


----------



## LazyWaka (Jul 18, 2012)

*DBL post*

Unless Poles in the HST just have built in anti-intange. Goes along nicely with chad wacking an "intangible" hollow.


----------



## Zeno (Jul 18, 2012)

HachibiWaka said:


> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> Yeah no, you cant sugar coat this. There were clearly pieces of him missing.



I see. Well wipe my ass with sandpaper and call me Jesus fucking Christ, I give up.


----------



## Huntring (Jul 18, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Alright, have it your way. Kizaru isn't intangible. That still doesn't mean jack in the face of conventional attacks.



And didn't Chaos already refute this whole Kizaru=light thing?  And didn't you conceed?  

Aw, whatever not that I really care about that.  This Kizura arguement will likely come up again but it doesn't really matter know.


----------



## Zeno (Jul 18, 2012)

Huntring said:


> And didn't Chaos already refute this whole Kizaru=light thing?  And didn't you conceed?
> 
> Aw, whatever not that I really care about that.  This Kizura arguement will likely come up again but it doesn't really matter know.



No I'm done. This shitstorm has been brewed one too many times, I've got nothing. Probably Gomu will start the next one, probably.


----------



## eaebiakuya (Jul 18, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Because Doom never upgrades his shielding or armor right?  the shielding that Ben fucked up clearly is the same as the one which can withstand Supermans blows right?
> 
> Come now



When you say : Thing can destroy Doom Shields with a T-Clap, ofc i consider the actual Dr.Doom Shield.

You should say : Thing T-Clap destroyed a old and weaker Dr.Doom Shield. Still, someone said Dr.Doom tanked a mountain buster in a old story with his shields.

I dont know WHEN this t-clap feat happen. Can someone say? 

Because look those feats(only old storys):

Stronger than Sue force field:



Tank Iron man blast:


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 18, 2012)

Soo besides nit picking and using very old and dated comics do you have something tangible and relevant to offer?


----------



## eaebiakuya (Jul 18, 2012)

lol.

First you said : The thunderclap feat is valid because it was against a old Dr.Doom. Now he have better shields.

Then i post old feats and you say that is a very old and dated comics ?



Im waiting you prove the T-Clap feat is not a PIS. I posted 2 scans showing his shield > thing t-clap. I cant see it destroying Doom shield(any version). 

Or you can prove Thing Thunder Clap > Sue storm shield and iron man blast.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 18, 2012)

Yes I said the T clap very could be valid because it could be against shields not on Superman level..of course it hardly matters even Dooms weakest shields would be beyond even Gold D Roger to breach..so it again renders your original pointa kinda invalid

now you wanna go put out..decades old scans from a time when Ben..to my knowledge wasn't even a fraction of the power level he's been at the last twenty or so years..be my guest..but it hardly makes you have a valid point


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 18, 2012)

cool stories bros





Zengetto said:


> I see. Well wipe my ass with sandpaper and call me Jesus fucking Christ, I give up.





dem poles


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## eaebiakuya (Jul 18, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Yes I said the T clap very could be valid because it could be against shields not on Superman level..of course it hardly matters even Dooms weakest shields would be beyond even Gold D Roger to breach..so it again renders your original pointa kinda invalid



What ? My only point is show the Thunder Clap feat is just PIS.

Ben can win via Thunder Clap? Ok, but then, dont use this feat, because it is just PIS.



> now you wanna go put out..decades old scans from a time when Ben..to my knowledge wasn't even a fraction of the power level he's been at the last twenty or so years..be my guest..but it hardly makes you have a valid point



We all know that is said he get stronger with the years. Still, the best feats of Ben are from old years. 

I was justing pointing out he never had the power to break Dooms Shields. I posted only Doom feats.

I didnt posted any scan to downplay Ben.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 18, 2012)

The only best feat from Ben from back then was eating a punch in the liver from Gladiator..which incidentally puts Ben lightyears above any HST characters offensive might

but that being said the Doom feat being PIS it would have to be if he breached the guys magic amped shields or some such


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## Blαck (Jul 18, 2012)

Ok, I skimmed over a few pages and I must have missed something but what did Kizaru have to do with this argument? I saw a bit on Kizaru not being a "light man" and such but what is the general consensus on that? Because I'm confused as fuck on the matter, are we treating him as something other than light? 

Or is it something about his intangibility?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 18, 2012)

Ben Grimm's strength has been around small mountain+ to mountain level(Reed has a machine that he designed specifically to work out for Ben, Ben damaged the machine when it hit small mountain level). He has also taken hits from characters like Champion, Namor, Hulk and others thanks to sheer willpower(he ends up hurting a lot after the fights or barely stand after his pummeling but impressive enough), he's a Rocky Balboa homage. He did resist absolute 0 from the Skrull Paibok. He has also survived the gravity and heat deep inside Ego the living planet while carrying a bomb to his core. 

Ben Grimm at his absolute best is around the level of Bijuu or S class demons in YYH(low ones). So yes certain HST characters and S class Demons from YYH can beat him, it will simply take many hits of those mountain busters to down him barring some H4X. He can't solo any HST verse but one on one he'd go far in a pure stats battle. 

Whether Aokiji can do it or not, won't comment outside the fact temperature of the ice will not do anything,since I have not read OP in a long while and need to catch up. Aokiji also would have a speed advantage over Ben(heard he'd be around double digits?), worst case scenario is a stalemate. Otherwise if Aokiji can't trap him then Ben just waits till he tires out and it comes down to how far he can disperse Aokiji


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Jul 18, 2012)

WTF is this "light is intangable" rubbish? It's only intangible to transparent things, and the thing isn't transparent.


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## I3igAl (Jul 18, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> WTF is this "light is intangable" rubbish? It's only intangible to transparent things, and the thing isn't transparent.



Well the Photons it consists of are kinda impossible to damage and can kinda pass through matter. Though some of them might be absorbed and some Ionisation etc. 
None of this has anything to do with the enemies striking force therefore it should matter how hard Kizaru is punched, he won't be scattered. 
I might be ignorant of some other factors here though.


But what has this to do with an Aokiji thread?


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Jul 18, 2012)

I3igAl said:


> Well the Photons it consists of are kinda impossible to damage and can kinda pass through matter. Though some of them might be absorbed and some Ionisation etc.
> None of this has anything to do with the enemies striking force therefore it should matter how hard Kizaru is punched, he won't be scattered.
> I might be ignorant of some other factors here though.
> 
> ...



Photons are not impossible to damage. I am full on destroying them now with my black jumper. So it's kind of obvious that in that aspect at least, kizaru acts like a normal logia rather than a light being, because otherwise, throwing a black sheet at him would kill him.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 18, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Photons are not impossible to damage. I am full on destroying them now with my black jumper. So it's kind of obvious that in that aspect at least, kizaru acts like a normal logia rather than a light being, because otherwise, throwing a black sheet at him would kill him.



Black jumper Vs. Kizaru?


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## I3igAl (Jul 18, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Photons are not impossible to damage. I am full on destroying them now with my black jumper. So it's kind of obvious that in that aspect at least, kizaru acts like a normal logia rather than a light being, because otherwise, throwing a black sheet at him would kill him.



They won't be destroyed just most of them absorbed and the Rest still pass through. Since he can control them he probably could avoid that. He could also dodge. Since he can create massive amounts of light from his body(just look at his attacks), the amount of black paper you would need, would just be insane...

I looked through his fights and at least that Dj-supernova Captains explosion blew him in half. Also his lasers and energy parts seem to pack some velocity so he might be tangible like the others.

this


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## eaebiakuya (Jul 18, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> The only best feat from Ben from back then was eating a punch in the liver from Gladiator..which incidentally puts Ben lightyears above any HST characters offensive might



The feat when he destroy a mountain in a fight with iron man is very old.

The reed richards machine who says he have strengh of a small mountain + is old.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Jul 18, 2012)

eaebiakuya said:


> The feat when he destroy a mountain in a fight with iron man is very old.
> 
> The reed richards machine who says he have strengh of a small mountain + is old.



Kind of depends on what you call "very" old.


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## Soledad Eterna (Jul 18, 2012)

The Thing thunderclaps Aokiji.


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## Zeno (Jul 18, 2012)

BlackniteSwartz said:


> Ok, I skimmed over a few pages and I must have missed something but what did Kizaru have to do with this argument? I saw a bit on Kizaru not being a "light man" and such but what is the general consensus on that? Because I'm confused as fuck on the matter, are we treating him as something other than light?
> 
> Or is it something about his intangibility?



At this point I guess most people are saying that his light isn't technically real light, since it was scattered by poles (fuck you Oda) and he was affected by Apoo's attack. Though I still haven't heard from GM on the matter.



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Photons are not impossible to damage. I am full on destroying them now with my black jumper. So it's kind of obvious that in that aspect at least, kizaru acts like a normal logia rather than a light being, because otherwise, throwing a black sheet at him would kill him.



Not only are photons not destroyed, but a black sheet wouldn't do jack shit. He is a light source himself you know. To be able to absorb all the light he emits would require to deplete the power of the fruit itself. Plus he can always go into solid form. Of course.... this is all IF he was normal light, which is commonly disputed.


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