# This section needs a chunk of Edo Tensei



## Deleted member 73050 (Sep 11, 2015)

I'm your overlord. Bow down to me.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Sep 11, 2015)

I think maybe we could change the banner already. At first I suggested making it for SotW 550, but maybe it could be done sooner. 

Also, not sure how it could be done, but something Kitsune said before, people find it hard to navigate the contests. She suggested a contests FAQs. Maybe that could be done too and added to the quick links. 

And tutorials for beginners. Like, simple stuff like how to use photoshop. Or even tutorials with your popular work.

Not sure yet, and just a random idea I thought right now, I should have to discuss this with Trin too, but do we need an Art 101 subsection? Maybe it's time we merge these two


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## Arcuya (Sep 11, 2015)

Just need more members to push activity really since there's not a ton of active gfxers and some newer to gfx are probably shy(I can think of a couple from the latter)

so imo the best thing to start with would be tutorials to either start to learn photoshop in general or specifically gfx type work(since people love making them avas) 
preferably more immersive tutorials then people would be more inclined to post in general tbh 
I was going to make a GFX help thread where anyone can just post a sig or something they're stuck on and anyone can help, immersion like that I think is better rather than generic_devianart_tutorial.png although something like that will be needed to give people an idea on how to start I guess 

then after all that ruckus there should be just a higher memberbase of gfxers = more people that _can_ actually post here

i'm rambling, but my 2 cents


edit: I just realised I'm a lot more focused on gfx rather than other types of art, but it's the easiest and probably most wanted to pick up and learn.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Sep 11, 2015)

Yeah, Jolyne, I actually wanted to start making tutorials for people here cause not a lot of people participated in my contest and that might be because of the lack of shoppers on this forum. 

Your help thread might be handy, but it also needs people to post in it in order to help. I dunno, it might work.


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## Arcuya (Sep 11, 2015)

Pretty much
although that thread idea sparked because I have a couple people that generally ask for tips and what not, they'd easily be enough to start.
But I agree, tutorials and the like first; I can help make a tutorial or something, though probably after yours if you were to make some as to not to conflict in stuff.


ane said:


> Not sure yet, and just a random idea I thought right now, I should have to discuss this with Trin too, but do we need an Art 101 subsection? Maybe it's time we merge these two


I've never liked the idea of galleries being alongside discussion threads but I'd imagine that there'd be very few active galleries anyway.
I say it might be a good idea tbh


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## Deleted member 73050 (Sep 11, 2015)

Well yes. It depends though, on what level the tutorials should be? like how to use Photoshop or advanced ones telling you how to shoop?


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## Arcuya (Sep 11, 2015)

Vino said:


> Well yes. It depends though, on what level the tutorials should be? like how to use Photoshop or advanced ones telling you how to shoop?



The latter imo
although the basic of advanced, if that makes sense
I mean, if someone is interested in PS then they should put some initial minimal effort into just looking at what most of the tools do 

Like if I were to make a gfx based one, knowing how layers or brush/move tool works would only be  _really_ required. And things like that I'd imagine are self-explanatory or take a slim amount of time to look up


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## Deleted member 73050 (Sep 11, 2015)

Well Jolyne I just made a tutorial that shows people how to shoop one character in a picture to another picture. I hope it will help them since I made it as basic as possible


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## Robin (Sep 13, 2015)

I notice what makes people excited about creating something is where they do something forum-related. Creating banners for sections, participating in forum-wide contests, ect. Those get a lot of publicity, people talk about them, and we get many entries. The secret santa one is also popular. 

I think we need something big to happen periodically. Otherwise the section seems like a provincial village where nothing of note happens.

Also we can add regular contests (long-term and short-term) like: 
Manga colorings contest (no weekly theme, just regular contest, or maybe with an occasional theme)
Create a character 
Shoop regular contests
And we desperately need art practice contests that have the goal of getting better at drawing. The current SkotW is not very good for that imo. The topics should be picked by staff (following the topics in an art book for example) and not by the participants. Examples: hands, feet, hair, animals, cartoon-ized animals, realistic still life, etc. We aren't an art forum, but I think it'll help those that like drawing practice. It's just my opinion, though. But I've met a lot of people who can draw but they are too timid to participate in SkotF, and I think would rather participate in something like art practice contest that's for art noobs. Maybe we won't make it a contest, just a no-prize weekly thread with a prompt to practice drawing something. People can post as many images as they like, and the rest critique them. 

More regular (weekly, byweekly and monthly) contests=more activity, because you have more options. 

Also, Vino, I think photo manipulation is relatively easy to do, compared to other things, so it's a nice addition to what we already have.


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## Demetrius (Sep 13, 2015)

Nico Robin said:


> I notice what makes people excited about creating something is where they do something forum-related. Creating banners for sections, participating in forum-wide contests, ect. Those get a lot of publicity, people talk about them, and we get many entries. The secret santa one is also popular.
> 
> I think we need something big to happen periodically. Otherwise the section seems like a provincial village where nothing of note happens.
> 
> ...



yes to all of this


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## Deleted member 73050 (Sep 13, 2015)

Nico Robin said:


> I notice what makes people excited about creating something is where they do something forum-related. Creating banners for sections, participating in forum-wide contests, ect. Those get a lot of publicity, people talk about them, and we get many entries. The secret santa one is also popular.
> 
> I think we need something big to happen periodically. Otherwise the section seems like a provincial village where nothing of note happens.
> 
> ...



This


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## Robin (Sep 13, 2015)

I also propose a regular monthly manga/anime fan art contest. This is purely because I'd love to participate in one. Not sure about other ppl  

The themes for the contests have to be not bound to a specific series cuz not everyone follows or even likes every anime etc. The themes should be something that encompasses all anime. For example, draw a pairing, a fav tsundere, a crack pairing (pairing-related stuff can be repeated once in a while cuz it's popular and gets a lot of people excited), friends, a date, fav scene, a character in the rain, facial expressions of a fav character, draw a character as a bug/animal, etc. Maybe this can have a couple of categories like not only drawing so more people can participate (ideas?)

Advertise the beginning of each monthly contest in the announcements, as well as voting. Everyone can vote. Give bigger prizes for winning, like 10 points or something. 



And I think I'll start an art practice thread myself, and will try to host them weekly in the general art contest area. It'd be nice if it could be advertised as well, maybe just when it started. 


These are just things I myself wish were here and I'd gladly participate in.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Sep 13, 2015)

That's a good idea. I'd also suggest a contest of coloring manga pages, it doesn't have to be a specific series, you could colour whatever you want as long as it fits the bill. I dunno if it should be monthly or weekly but it could work. That will spark the return of the manga pages colouring, an aspect that I really liked of this site back years ago. 

Well I dunno if advertising will help tbh. They advertised my contest for like almost a week and I barely got a few participants, the others were asked to join (you for instance). I think the best thing to do is move the art section a chunk of places upwards so people could take notice. Merge the Naruto/Bleach/One Piece avenue's fan art sections and make it fit for all the other series. 

Also I remember Reznor or Kira Yamato hosted a contest and rewarded the user with his very own section, which was pretty neat. Now I'm not saying a prize on that global size, but something similar. 

Keep the ideas coming :33


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## Robin (Sep 13, 2015)

Yeah the manga coloring shouldn't be attached to any specific series, but a regular theme (sort of like the fan art themes) might be nice. 

I dunno if we should merge the Naruto/Bleach/OP fan art sections, but we can put them under the Art avenue as subsections. And also add a new subsection for general anime/manga related. 

And yes to rising the art avenue higher.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Sep 13, 2015)

Vino said:


> Also I remember Reznor or Kira Yamato hosted a contest and rewarded the user with his very own section, which was pretty neat. Now I'm not saying a prize on that global size, but something similar.



I love this idea. If enough people are interested, I will discuss with other staff members, since it wouldn't be up to just us in this case.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Sep 13, 2015)

Going through both threads, and I got main ideas that we could try:

Make it more newbie friendly: more tutorials, encourage the Giveaways and the General Requests, make sketch practice threads and try to get more specific SkotF topics, reward people who follow the tutorials, encourage more people to vote
More variety: try banner, Secret Santa, Manga colouring, Fanart. Shoops contest is ongoing right now
More awareness: move the section, make it a subsection of Downtown Konoha
More resources: a thread where we can recommend sites for stocks
More prizes: a temporal subsection as prize


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## Deleted member 73050 (Sep 13, 2015)

Ideas for prizes:

-Slashed username 

-Image as username just like the smod Naruto

-Masked name while still retaining your username, like Vino as Kenshin but you will still see Vino 

-Bigger sig sizes


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## Robin (Sep 13, 2015)

Downtown Konoha would be a nice place to get popularity. But moving the whole HvoA there? Is that possible? 

Maybe even just moving HvoA up one avenue, above the Outskirts. And change the name. Hidden village of Art is nice, but the word "hidden" is off putting, subconsiously. I've been researching marketing strategies over the years for my business, and imo the avenue needs a more appealing name. But again that's just a hunch, it doesn't have to happen.

and what Vino said on the prizes. 


but all these changes mean more work for you, ane


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## Deleted member 161031 (Sep 13, 2015)

Vino said:


> Ideas for prizes:
> 
> -Slashed username
> 
> ...



Not up to me, but there was an old prizes debate. I should start a new one.

What about new animations on usernames? Not sparkles but different staff like sparkles.



Nico Robin said:


> Downtown Konoha would be a nice place to get popularity. But moving the whole HvoA there? Is that possible?
> 
> Maybe even just moving HvoA up one avenue, above the Outskirts. And change the name. Hidden village of Art is nice, but the word "hidden" is off putting, subconsiously. I've been researching marketing strategies over the years for my business, and imo the avenue needs a more appealing name. But again that's just a hunch, it doesn't have to happen.
> 
> ...



Sure. Do you have any idea for names?
Maybe it's time we change it.

Don't worry about the extra work. Just share your ideas.


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## Robin (Sep 13, 2015)

ane, think of whatever edits that can make our NF face different from mere pleb.. I mean from non-privile.. pardon from non-participating members is game. User name/title/ava/ect animation? cool, flashing colors? cool, a birdy flying through it and pooping on the ava? awesome. We love being different, whatever that may entail. So the possibilities are endless. 



Sorta like a "creative hub" or something like that


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## Rapidus (Sep 14, 2015)

I don't know if suggested yet, but perhaps starting up the NF Resource Pack thing that happened a year or so ago. I think it could really help the new GFXers who need a push in the right direction.  We could include PSDs, tutorials, our favorite resources, and all sorts of cool stuff.


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## Robin (Sep 23, 2015)

So I started and also


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## Loni (Sep 25, 2015)

Maybe you should *change the name of this thread* to "learn drawing thread" or something like that and post it in Art 101.  

I also* don't *think you should use *random prompts on people*.  Teach them to draw what they want, like hands and faces or manga characters (something fun).

Although most of us use photo reference, myself included, it is *best to start with something real* not a photo.

*There are books worth reading too* and I could name a few if any beginners are interested.


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## Demetrius (Sep 25, 2015)

I agree and disagree. If you want to better your skills, you're not always going to want to draw what you want. Some of it will be monotonous. Some of it will make you want to smash your head against the wall. Some of it will be fun. Some of it won't be. And that's what refining your skills are.

For instance, I drew the cube many times in order to learn proper shading and lighting techniques. And by many, this was constant, nonstop, repetitive. It's eerily similar to mathematics - to get good or to understand the concepts well in order to pass an exam,  you're going to have to practice. You're going to have to practice on memorizing things you don't want to memorize. You're going to have to practice equations or whatever you find unnecessary, and absolutely ludicrous, in order to get where you want to be - in order to pass your exam.

Which is probably why I would stick to anatomy, and life-like things. Not at random, either.*

 Nor should they practice manga or anime quite yet. Actually,_ never_ start with manga and anime because it  distorts logical proportions in the face and body. It distorts your view of how the human face works, how anatomy works. Never, ever. It fucks up artists that later on want to develop a more realistic style. It takes them years to recover what they already damaged. It takes them years to develop a more precise style rather than an  impracticable one.

*Stick to a refined list, a basic list. No abstract concepts like grass, yet. Once you start with the basics: i.e, cubes, shapes, to human characteristics and to nature, then I recommend going with a random, automated topic. Just as a precaution. 

I also would suggest going with a creative approach also. Let them draw something from their imaginations instead of reference to increase and promote ingenuity.

I can make a list for you.


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## Big Bοss (Sep 25, 2015)

Quick question, is there a thread with the past SotW winners?


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## Demetrius (Sep 25, 2015)

There's an SotW Hall of Fame.


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## Big Bοss (Sep 25, 2015)

Oh fuck, I meant SkotW, but thanks.


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## Demetrius (Sep 25, 2015)

We have that, too.


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## Big Bοss (Sep 25, 2015)

Thanks a lot         .


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## Demetrius (Sep 25, 2015)

**


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## Robin (Sep 26, 2015)

Loni said:


> Maybe you should *change the name of this thread* to "learn drawing thread" or something like that and post it in Art 101.
> 
> I also* don't *think you should use *random prompts on people*.  Teach them to draw what they want, like hands and faces or manga characters (something fun).
> 
> ...



It's a thread for those who are determined to get better but need that extra kick in the butt to do it. It is for those who already know how to draw basic things, but wanna hone their skill. The main objectives of the thread are: to upgrade your observation skills, your drawing technique, the mastery of the medium, and the mastery of your style. 

I understand that making it fun the thread will have more participants, but it's not about popularity. 

There is a resource section in the Art 101 with books and stuff. And honestly, it is a practice thread, not a learn how to draw from stick figures to a master thread. You gotta have some kind of experience, however minimal, for this thread. And it says in the rules that you can either use photos or real life objects. 



Trinity said:


> I agree and disagree. If you want to better your skills, you're not always going to want to draw what you want. Some of it will be monotonous. Some of it will make you want to smash your head against the wall. Some of it will be fun. Some of it won't be. And that's what refining your skills are.
> 
> For instance, I drew the cube many times in order to learn proper shading and lighting techniques. And by many, this was constant, nonstop, repetitive. It's eerily similar to mathematics - to get good or to understand the concepts well in order to pass an exam,  you're going to have to practice. You're going to have to practice on memorizing things you don't want to memorize. You're going to have to practice equations or whatever you find unnecessary, and absolutely ludicrous, in order to get where you want to be - in order to pass your exam.
> 
> ...



I agree 100% with everything you said before the things with the *. I didn't wanna make it that basic such as drawing cubes and stuff. A lot of people on these boards already have some kinda experience with copying things from photos or from life. When I started drawing, I would draw flowers and roses and birdies from photos or looking at live flowers or cut flowers in vases. So I believe anyone who wants to be an artist, even as a hobby, has a natural desire to put things that are 3D into a 2D paper. 

What I could do instead is create a tutorial teaching how to do that, and namely drawing simple shapes and getting the proportions right, and about perspective and light and color, some very basic stuff. And people can use the Drawing Practice Thread as a practice for that tutorial.

We already have SkotW where people can draw from imagination, and it's actually encouraged there. In the Drawing Practice Thread, you gotta practice your observation skills, learn how objects behave, the dynamics of light, and learn how to reflect that in your 2D drawing.


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## ~M~ (Sep 26, 2015)

can I get a tl ; dr


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## Deleted member 161031 (Sep 26, 2015)

Robin said:


> It's a thread for those who are determined to get better but need that extra kick in the butt to do it. It is for those who already know how to draw basic things, but wanna hone their skill. The main objectives of the thread are: to upgrade your observation skills, your drawing technique, the mastery of the medium, and the mastery of your style.
> 
> I understand that making it fun the thread will have more participants, but it's not about popularity.
> 
> ...



I am going to say I love your thread, Nico. I understand completely that it's just for certain practices. It doesn't need to be for beginners or anyhing. We have other threads like the Daily Sketch and the SKotF


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## Robin (Sep 26, 2015)

Trin, sweetheart, imma be blunt and unoriginal, but ain't nobody got time fo' dat 

I'm a hobby artist, and yes I may have some medium level skill, but I just don't have experience teaching art, so this stuff doesn't come rolling off my tongue like the nutrition stuff which I do educate people about on a regular basis. I'm a grad student and just can't dedicate a whole lot of time and energy devising a big fat NF art school over here. I gotta have to sort through books and learn to teach this stuff. If we do it your way, then it's gotta become a whole class with a plan and goals, and that takes effort that right now I just don't have the brain juices to spare. I'm also opening a business and getting ready to open a physical location. So I got my priorities, too. This thread is absolutely the most I can do. I even set it to every two weeks because I'm not sure I'll be able to keep up with it every week. And sure I can throw in a few body parts in there. But you know what? I know how to draw the human body pretty well (all those nekkid menz dude) without reference because I've only practiced the human body. I'm terrible at everything else, and even clothes. So this thread is supposed to break that habit of only wanting to draw the human figure and be bored drawing anything else. Ah yeah I'm also good at metal. Gotta love dat shiny metal. Mmmmm  Ah did I mention that we're also building a house?  

bruh 




Ane 




Em-chan: sorry to disappoint


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## Loni (Sep 27, 2015)

Where do we keep the books list for Art 101?  I want to add to it.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Sep 27, 2015)

Well Svet, it's her thread, let her do what she wants, as long as she doesn't break the rules. I can see where you're coming from and how it's kind of insulting but people have other ways of teaching. Any thread that is meant to help any individual is welcome in my eyes.


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## Demetrius (Sep 27, 2015)

i understand that

there are different ways of teaching, but to be interpreted wrongly kind of leaves me wounded and rather impatient and far more agitated than before, but oh well

my stance is you can help them with so much more, but then again, we're also assuming we know what the artists that want to participate in this want, not really taking them into consideration 

we'll see how it goes

i'm not trying to berate her, but i'm also trying to see her end of things too, even though i don't share the exact sentiments unable to reach an actual conclusion w/ her

fuck it


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## ~M~ (Sep 27, 2015)

pls respect her freedoms


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## Demetrius (Sep 27, 2015)

em quit shitposting and tell us what you think

you're an artist, what would you like to see for hvoa


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## Deleted member 73050 (Sep 27, 2015)

Trinity said:


> i understand that
> 
> there are different ways of teaching, but to be interpreted wrongly kind of leaves me wounded and rather impatient and far more agitated than before, but oh well
> 
> ...



I understand. I too get interpreted wrongly at times and thus it makes me want to prove that it wasn't what I meant, but that's how things flow around here. 

Yes, she can help them with so much more but as she said, she's quite limited and can only do certain things at time. She just opened her thread, when the time comes, people who actually take interest will say what they want. 

No one saw it that way, it's cool.


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## Demetrius (Sep 27, 2015)

this was a very heartwarming response, i appreciate it

as for time restraints 
>not knowing i don't have a life
nico if you need help just say so


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## Deleted member 161031 (Sep 27, 2015)

Em, I agree. Share your ideas or shut up, please. 

And yes, Trin, don't worry. It's just a thread. There can be more if we have more ideas. It's just different persons thinking differently. No big deal


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## Demetrius (Sep 27, 2015)

it's a community centered thing and it'll garner far more attention than here 

post, enter your favorite pieces you've done or a newer work you're proud of


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## ~M~ (Sep 27, 2015)

Trinity said:


> em quit shitposting and tell us what you think
> 
> you're an artist, what would you like to see for hvoa



I already asked for a tl ; dr, I don't feel like going through all of this personally charged stuff for one or two points. 

It's not even shitposting, I saw vino mention something something nico isn't breaking any rules so I'm serious, back off if that's true.


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## Demetrius (Sep 27, 2015)

> you're an artist, *what would you like to see* for hvoa


 _ em_.

my question had nothing to do with the previous posts, and moreso asking you


> *what would you like to see* for hvoa


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## ~M~ (Sep 27, 2015)

I'd like to know what the three pages have already proposed to spark some ideas, I don't have any personal complaints


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## Demetrius (Sep 27, 2015)

uh

selective reading is handy for me, particularly on the first page



> Manga colorings contest (no weekly theme, just regular contest, or maybe with an occasional theme)
> Create a character
> Shoop regular contests


+art mag

prob missing some stuff but these are the ideas that stuck out most


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## Robin (Sep 29, 2015)

Trinity said:


> i understand that
> 
> there are different ways of teaching, but to be interpreted wrongly kind of leaves me wounded and rather impatient and far more agitated than before, but oh well
> 
> ...



Oh no Trin I didn't mean for this to happen  
I'm sorry I don't want you to be upset   




Trinity said:


> it's a community centered thing and it'll garner far more attention than here
> 
> post, enter your favorite pieces you've done or a newer work you're proud of



I like this  
Post it in the CB, see what other ideas people might have/get exposure.
But where are you gonna host it?


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## Demetrius (Sep 29, 2015)

naw fam u gud  i'm just shit at  articulating my thoughts elegantly 

i'm gonna host the thing on a webpage
more info in the op


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## Robin (Sep 29, 2015)

see if Reznor can spare you a domain name, even a subdomain


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## Robin (Sep 29, 2015)

Trin, does  help your cause even a little 


I also wanna do a Manga coloring contest. But I do need ideas here. Vino's getting all the points for the shoop contest, can't be left behind 
so I'm thinking to post 3 manga panels/pages from popular manga, in spoiler tags, enumerating the chapter so people don't get spoiled if they don't want to. A fourth option of doing their manga panel/page of choice which they will have to state name and chapter number. So people have to choose between the 3 panels and the 4th option, color it in two weeks, post it in the thread, and then we all vote and then $$$. The only problem is voting might be hindered by spoilers. So we gotta choose panels that pretty much everyone already read.


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## ~M~ (Oct 13, 2015)

There really is a major internal problem to the staff that's been becoming apartent lately, they have a tendency of promoting from within and really have gathered a lot of people who show minimal levels of care for the forum as a whole. Their overall actions for change seem soulless and their reaction to everything on the whole is always very very empty feeling.

I'm sure some of the newer mods still feel invested in the forum but look at Trinity. It's been what, less than a year? We barely see her active in any thread that isn't shitposting and egocentric, and when it comes to competitions her attitude has become "do it yourself". Yeah, she's made a push with Vino's encouragement to 'improve the art section', but it feels so SOULLESS to me. Frankly, shoop contests? I'm not interested. SOTW? Yeah I love it it's my passion, but it's become SOULLESS. No one gives constructive criticism and it's people just scraping by a few points for a possible prize eventually.

Frankly I think the staff needs to be more focused on ACTUALLY BEING MEMEBERS instead of ironic aloofiarchy posters. One win in the art section should get you a prize. Period. The old system was set up to make regulars keep coming but that is DEAD. But would I personally enter if every time I won I could change my custom usertitle or renew my month long big ava/sparkles? Hell yeah. Would others enter? YES. Because new people know they're not going to win 7 times for a prize but will be encouraged to try ONCE and win ONCE and be rewarded. That's how you reward both old and new participants.

And oh, how about a contest for art appreciation???? We post a painting/whatever the topic of the week is, and then vote who posted the best one. That way you don't even have to be an artist. WE ALL LIKE ART. If we can't make it, this is still a way of being engaged. And it's also a lesson in art because it tells us artists what people appreciate the most.

Finally, Krory has NO RIGHT to complain about sotw and other art contests being dead. Why?? Because every other damn section has contests like Character of the month that give a prize for ONE WIN that people are now entering instead.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 13, 2015)

em senpai said:


> There really is a major internal problem to the staff that's been becoming apartent lately, they have a tendency of promoting from within and really have gathered a lot of people who show minimal levels of care for the forum as a whole. Their overall actions for change seem soulless and their reaction to everything on the whole is always very very empty feeling.
> 
> I'm sure some of the newer mods still feel invested in the forum but look at Trinity. It's been what, less than a year? We barely see her active in any thread that isn't shitposting and egocentric, and when it comes to competitions her attitude has become "do it yourself". Yeah, she's made a push with Vino's encouragement to 'improve the art section', but it feels so SOULLESS to me. Frankly, shoop contests? I'm not interested. SOTW? Yeah I love it it's my passion, but it's become SOULLESS. No one gives constructive criticism and it's people just scraping by a few points for a possible prize eventually.
> 
> ...




Forum doesn't feel empty to me. There are still mods here who give their time here and try to make this section a bit better. True, the activity has lessened but I plan to bring a few more ideas to the table in order to make it more lively. 

Constructive criticism isn't given because you don't ask for it perhaps? maybe if you went "hey guys I did this, I need pointers on how to improve and stuff" it could spark some decent replies. 

Your suggestion has a few flaws though. If we do it your way/old system, then we'll have to toss away the point system that we currently use and use the more simplistic one. The new one will cause more workload for admins cause mods/smods don't have the powers to give members prizes. I also think it will bring activity, but on the other hand people just enter the contest and then leave, and we don't aim for this kind of activity. We want actual regular members here, not one at a time members. 

I'll look into it. I plan to bring a few more ideas for contests to the section, so I'll check with the mods bout your idea.


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## ~M~ (Oct 13, 2015)

> Constructive criticism isn't given because you don't ask for it perhaps? maybe if you went "hey guys I did this, I need pointers on how to improve and stuff" it could spark some decent replies.



This happened from the mods THEMSELVES before you came active here like 2 months ago, didn't fly  



> If we do it your way/old system, then we'll have to toss away the point system that we currently use and use the more simplistic one. The new one will cause more workload for admins cause mods/smods don't have the powers to give members prizes. I also think it will bring activity, but on the other hand people just enter the contest and then leave, and we don't aim for this kind of activity. We want actual regular members here, not one at a time members.


The point system is pointless. Regulars are GONE. People like me and Ultear aren't interested in the rat race of entering consistently because it's a ton of effort compared to other contests that reward immediately. 

Furthermore, if the people who CONSTANTLY win no longer have to constantly be in the contest, it leaves room for the inexperienced people to have a chance which has been a major complaint from the start. 

More work for the admins = them going into the admin cp, typing in a members name, and changing his or her usergroup. It's less work than the mods do. Why are they admins if they want to do less work than mods? 

Pls


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## Big Bοss (Oct 13, 2015)

> Furthermore, if the people who CONSTANTLY win no longer have to constantly be in the contest, it leaves room for the inexperienced people to have a chance which has been a major complaint from the start.




I don't have problems with the one win get a prize thing, but people saying they don't enter because the keep losing to the experienced ones is just weak on their part, I mean if you want to be good just keep trying until you are, I for one like to enter because I like drawing, I don't care about the points or prizes.

Care to note this is not directed at you, but to the people who don't enter because of that reason.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 14, 2015)

My personal opinion, I can't remember why I started taking part in contests. Winning was a reason, of course, but it was mostly because I was surprised such a place existed in the forum and I like photography. When I was new Hollie won a section and she made it about photography and, being new and all, I wondered where it went since I had no idea it was just temporal, so I was kinda glad to have found something where I could just post photos. At some point I realized I could get a prize out of this, sparkles or big avatar, so I wanted to pursue it. That lasted until I got it for the first time, then I realized I didn't care as much as I thought I did and kept taking part just because I enjoyed it. 

With that said, that's only my case, and I understand people wanting to get prizes and the frustration when you don't win. It doesn't have to be that you get frustrated because of prizes but only because you put effort into something and in the end people don't value it as much as you thought it should. It's shitty, I know, but it's also the way to encourage yourself to do better next time. 
As for newbies, I really don't know what to do to encourage them to post more. More feedback? Encourage people to ask in the discussion threads to ask for it might help, not sure.


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## ~M~ (Oct 14, 2015)

Big Boss, to be fair, it is weak for someone not to enter knowing they will lose to the big guns. But why are they weak? Because they haven't had their confidence strengthened by ANYONE paying true attention to their work and instead people will rave about popular artist X who made this gorgeous piece and that's all the current week will talk about. 

If they could enter in an off week, when popular artist X won't enter, maybe their own piece will get noticed and they will have a confidence boost for once to strengthen their resolve and eventually compete against the big guns. You don't get strong by entering a ten kilometer race when you've never trained before, you'll feel like crap. But if you enter a kiometer dash and actually make maybe second place, you'll keep going and get stronger. 

That's why I think one win should equal perhaps a 2 week prize. And maybe save a couple wins for a name change, like 3-4.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Big Boss, to be fair, it is weak for someone not to enter knowing they will lose to the big guns. But why are they weak? Because they haven't had their confidence strengthened by ANYONE paying true attention to their work and instead people will rave about popular artist X who made this gorgeous piece and that's all the current week will talk about.
> 
> If they could enter in an off week, when popular artist X won't enter, maybe their own piece will get noticed and they will have a confidence boost for once to strengthen their resolve and eventually compete against the big guns. You don't get strong by entering a ten kilometer race when you've never trained before, you'll feel like crap. But if you enter a kiometer dash and actually make maybe second place, you'll keep going and get stronger.
> 
> That's why I think one win should equal perhaps a 2 week prize. And maybe save a couple wins for a name change, like 3-4.



Em, that's not true. SasuNaru (a user I didn't know about until recently) joined my shoop contest and basically blew my entry away. She's really good and she pretty much never joined any contests. I really don't see anyone raving bout Corsair (ok maybe bout his looks, I'm a fan too) or Ul (aside from his shop). Everyone has their own style and are welcomed. I'd also not classify people as "weak", anyone can learn and become good, so I think it's a bit of an unfair statement. 

Again, it is pointless to enter a contest just because someone who's good will not enter. What's the point of entering if you aren't challenging the strong and showing them what you got? 

I don't think your idea could work. Here's why. We work with the point system and we won't ditch it for instant prizes. People still own their points and can still use them. We can't throw them away and tell people "sorry the old system doesn't work anymore OuO". A better compromise in my opinion would be to reduce the amount of points needed for each prize and increase the points you get in each contest. 

Instant prizes COULD be used for special contests, like holiday theme or monthly contests.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 14, 2015)

Vino said:


> I don't think your idea could work. Here's why. We work with the point system and we won't ditch it for instant prizes. People still own their points and can still use them. We can't throw them away and tell people "sorry the old system doesn't work anymore OuO". A better compromise in my opinion would be to reduce the amount of points needed for each prize and increase the points you get in each contest.
> 
> Instant prizes COULD be used for special contests, like holiday theme or monthly contests.



I agree. What do you guys think of this?


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## ~M~ (Oct 14, 2015)

> I'd also not classify people as "weak", anyone can learn and become good, so I think it's a bit of an unfair statement.


Big Boss said that, not me. 



> Again, it is pointless to enter a contest just because someone who's good will not enter. What's the point of entering if you aren't challenging the strong and showing them what you got?


So then why are there different leagues in sports? There's varsity, and club level. People don't want to play against people they're certain they'll lose against. Sure it's an encouragement to 'try your best'. But it's also a morale decrease. 



> We work with the point system and we won't ditch it for instant prizes. People still own their points and can still use them. We can't throw them away and tell people "sorry the old system doesn't work anymore OuO". A better compromise in my opinion would be to reduce the amount of points needed for each prize and increase the points you get in each contest.


If we asked people 

"You can continue working towards getting a prize, winning 4 more times against people that usually come in first or second, or you could get lucky once and win a prize the first time you win and enjoy the surprise" 

I have a feeling the second option will be chosen. 



> Instant prizes COULD be used for special contests, like holiday theme or monthly contests.


There's already a monthly contest in EVERY big anime/manga section that gives a prize to the winner once they win. Why would they ever come here to win points. To get better? They get better competing with those other people going for the easy prize. That's why sotw is dying.


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## Arcuya (Oct 14, 2015)

I started using photoshop at the end of last year and came back to this forum in like february, to which I started entering sotws
and i didn't win a single comp for months
but i wasn't expecting to
 i knew people were way better, I just tried each week to win and each week i probably improved a little to where now I can safely say I've won a few. People have to put in bloody effort to get better, anyone who's new to gfx/drawing/whatever and are expecting to get all these prizes instantly don't deserve them.
I suppose a super beginners contest could be a thing to encourage genuinely only weeks in level people to improve but even then they shouldn't be getting the same rewards as the full sotw.

Also, cotm isn't a great way to win prizes consistently em, if i wanted to keep my big ava permanently(and I LOVE my big ava) I'd have to win cotm every month, that ain't happening. If anything the cotm's are like beginner contests, they are leagues below in technical ability and tbh i haven't seen people improving, just trying to get a lucky win in, that's not the kind of regulars I'd want.


and I think it's dying because people are just losing interest in gfxin in general just like most sections on nf where people are just losing interest, was sotw ever about the prizes? I've spoken to sayaka a bit and from conversations with her and people she was friendly with it was mainly about the graphics.



overall; maybe a beginner contest with low-end rewards to encourage starting out in gfx(maybe limit an amount of times one can enter to not take advantage?) would encourage people who are "intimidated" by random regulars


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> There's already a monthly contest in EVERY big anime/manga section that gives a prize to the winner once they win. Why would they ever come here to win points. To get better? They get better competing with those other people going for the easy prize. That's why sotw is dying.



As someone who runs one of these monthly contest and lurks all the main anime/manga sections, I respectfully disagree with this point. The contest's decline has no relation with it being 'easier' (which is a completely subjective thing—different contests have different specifications that can't just be measured like that) to participate elsewhere; contests across the board are receiving less footfall, not just this one. A lot of the old active participants have left, and we're just not getting enough new blood to replace them.

If you ask me, I don't think activity will be boosted just by making it easier to win prizes. Large avatars and the like _are_ a big motivator, yes, but the crux of the problem is that the community has gradually gotten smaller. Besides that, making it easier to win prizes would only makes participation more lucrative for those who had graphics skills to begin with, and that's already a somewhat shallow pool. I think you'd have better success with a 'revival' by drawing in new members from outside the forum. 

That's just the opinion of someone who used to lurk the section, though. I'll freely admit that the rest of you will probably know better about the issue than I do; I just wanted to pitch in and clear up what I saw as a misconception.


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## ~M~ (Oct 14, 2015)

You know one person who didn't care about prizes, I know one person who does care about prizes, Krory. The sample sizes here are irrelevant and not going to go anywhere. 

The forum isn't an art school. Obviously a person has to put in effort to get better. But when that effort is rewarded, you're encouraged to keep trying. If all of the 'regulars' entered every week, and you get 0 votes every week, are you going to feel as good as if when the regulars are on break and your work gets attention, actually getting votes even if you don't win? Yeah, you are. Back when this competition had actual hard hitters like YK people wouldn't even bother to enter. I have experience seeing all of this. 



> Also, cotm isn't a great way to win prizes consistently em, if i wanted to keep my big ava permanently(and I LOVE my big ava) I'd have to win cotm every month, that ain't happening. If anything the cotm's are like beginner contests, they are leagues below in technical ability and tbh i haven't seen people improving, just trying to get a lucky win in, that's not the kind of regulars I'd want.


So the contest is below you... And you can't consistently win one? Something is off between point A and B here kiddo. 



> and I think it's dying because people are just losing interest in gfxin in general just like most sections on nf where people are just losing interest, was sotw ever about the prizes? I've spoken to sayaka a bit and from conversations with her and people she was friendly with it was mainly about the graphics.


SOTW was always about winning and when people like fraj and gallic rush were here things were constantly intense and salty because victory and points mattered a lot. 



> overall; maybe a beginner contest with low-end rewards to encourage starting out in gfx(maybe limit an amount of times one can enter to not take advantage?) would encourage people who are for "intimidated" by random regulars


Giving the best people prizes for winning, removing them from the contests for periods effectively as they have what they want, creates gaps in which beginners will be the only ones entering. There would be no need for a beginner contest. And if the beginners wanted to compete against people who consistently win, then they would still be free to. 

If a veteran won all possible prizes, they should just enter again and get a different custom usertitle. Or they could simply work on more things for themselves or in their shop. Regardless, people voiced an explicit opinion that the competitions aren't newbie friendly. Well I believe newbies will feel more welcome without the same hawks clawing for points every week. That's just a simple proposal of mechanics that changes things without adding more competitions which I doubt will prove effective in any long run, if the forum is losing interest as a while, as you claim. 

Not to mention Trinity is no longer here to host more competitions so if that's done at least add her.



> As someone who runs one of these monthly contest and lurks all the main anime/manga sections, I respectfully disagree with this point. The contest's decline has no relation with it being 'easier' (which is a completely subjective thing—different contests have different specifications that can't just be measured like that) to participate elsewhere; contests across the board are receiving less footfall, not just this one. A lot of the old active participants have left, and we're just not getting enough new blood to replace them.
> 
> If you ask me, I don't think activity will be boosted just by making it easier to win prizes. Large avatars and the like are a big motivator, yes, but the crux of the problem is that the community has gradually gotten smaller. Besides that, making it easier to win prizes would only makes participation more lucrative for those who had graphics skills to begin with, and that's already a somewhat shallow pool. I think you'd have better success with a 'revival' by drawing in new members from outside the forum.
> 
> That's just the opinion of someone who used to lurk the section, though. I'll freely admit that the rest of you will probably know better about the issue than I do; I just wanted to pitch in and clear up what I saw as a misconception.


The problem has been diagnosed repeatedly and it's not as if I don't understand it, it's obvious, there are fewer people here. 

That's an astute observation with no contextual significance to changing anything at all. How do you address the fact there are fewer people? Not caring and letting things dwindle? I'm fine with that. 

However our current policy of adding more competitions? With fewer people around? So the same people will enter more contests? That seems like a backwards solution to thin out interest further.

More lucrative prizes are more lucrative for everyone. Of course it's more lucrative for the talented. Do we want the old blood to just drain out like it has done, do we suddenly not care for the regulars or do we? There's no coherent approach to this schizophrenic grab for the new and disregard for the old.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> The problem has been diagnosed repeatedly and it's not as if I don't understand it, it's obvious, there are fewer people here.



I didn't mean to imply you weren't aware of what the problem is, that was just a standalone observation on my part without knowledge that others had already addressed it. The only posts I've read in this thread are the opening post and the one from you that I quoted. 



> That's an astute observation with no contextual significance to changing anything at all. How do you address the fact there are fewer people? Not caring and letting things dwindle? I'm fine with that.
> 
> However our current policy of adding more competitions? With fewer people around? So the same people will enter more contests? That seems like a backwards solution to thin out interest further.



I didn't suggest any of these things, though. My suggestion was to draw in talent from outside the forum; art sites, other forums, real life friends interested in the field, for example.


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## ~M~ (Oct 14, 2015)

I didn't mean to sound hostile at you AS I was just upset about something someone else told me. 

Yes drawing members from outside the forum would be a good idea but it's very hard to do. I wish it weren't.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> I didn't mean to sound hostile at you AS I was just upset about something someone else told me.
> 
> Yes drawing members from outside the forum would be a good idea but it's very hard to do. I wish it weren't.



It's definitely not easy, no. I think the key problem here—or at least part of it— is that we, the forum, haven't established any links outside our community. We used to be able to coast on Naruto's brand image for activity, but ever since its decline in popularity and eventual end, things have slowly fizzled out. Lack of leadership presence from Tazmo and Mbxx hasn't helped matters, either. 

I admittedly am not sure how you could draw in people from outside, but I think visiting other art-related sites and quietly dropping in the HVoA's name might be a good idea.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Big Boss said that, not me.
> 
> 
> So then why are there different leagues in sports? There's varsity, and club level. People don't want to play against people they're certain they'll lose against. Sure it's an encouragement to 'try your best'. But it's also a morale decrease.




My bad.

You're comparing two different fields that are vastly different. I dunno which sport team you played at, but when I was practicing soccer and the club was giving us an opportunity to play against the big players many years ago, I was thrilled. There was no fear in me, I wanted to show them what I had. Now with gfx, while it may be different, same point could be applied. I remember when manga colorings were the best thing in the forum and newbies kept coloring Naruto pages because they wanted to compete with people like Pokefreak and Amaretti. 



em senpai said:


> If we asked people
> 
> "You can continue working towards getting a prize, winning 4 more times against people that usually come in first or second, or you could get lucky once and win a prize the first time you win and enjoy the surprise"
> 
> I have a feeling the second option will be chosen.



You're forgetting bout the people that will go "hey! where are my points?!"



em senpai said:


> There's already a monthly contest in EVERY big anime/manga section that gives a prize to the winner once they win. Why would they ever come here to win points. To get better? They get better competing with those other people going for the easy prize. That's why sotw is dying.



There's a sheer diversity in those contests, and we could apply the same thing here but in a different way. Like I said, the points system will stay, but I'm looking into a way to make this work. Not promising though.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 14, 2015)

I am going to say, Em, that I agree. We can't just get rid of the points. The system has been going on for seven years. It would be very unfair now telling people all that effort was for nothing.


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## ~M~ (Oct 14, 2015)

Why not give everyone points if there has to be some kind of point system 

if there's 5 entries 

1st place gets 5 
2nd place gets 4 
3rd gets 3 
4th gets 2 
5th gets 1 

everyone is rewarded for entering, veterans are rewarded by beating out large numbers of entries meaning it was a harder fought one


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## Big Bοss (Oct 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Big Boss said that, not me.



Hey I said the reason they choose not to enter was weak, I was actually saying the same thing that anyone can learn and become good, so just enter even if you think you are not going to win.


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## ~M~ (Oct 14, 2015)

I don't disagree with that, people have just explicitly said they wouldn't before. Not that it can't change, just it's been said.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Why not give everyone points if there has to be some kind of point system
> 
> if there's 5 entries
> 
> ...



Then it wouldn't be called a contest.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 14, 2015)

No, no participation points. 
There's no point in them.


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## ~M~ (Oct 14, 2015)

It's a contest because there's a winner, you can't do anything with 1 point  

And if you guys don't want to reward participation, I don't know what you want. For it to just happen? 

Trust me, shoop contest numbers went down last week, they'll go down next week, etc. etc. No one knows what art trivia is, no one knows what the HVOA magazine is. 

I'll stop suggesting ideas. You have it handled


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> It's a contest because there's a winner, you can't do anything with 1 point
> 
> And if you guys don't want to reward participation, I don't know what you want. For it to just happen?
> 
> ...



Well yeah, that's how contests happen, they get going. 

Don't worry, I'll try to maintain the activity. The art trivia is still being discussed, we need more ideas though, would be happy if you suggest some 

No, you can keep on suggesting, I'm just saying what I think can be done and what cannot.


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## ~M~ (Oct 14, 2015)

Why can't I host an avatar of the week contest where everyone gets participation points 

More people make avatars than anything else. If you suck but still get participation points you'll enter next week 

= activity


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 14, 2015)

I dislike participation points. It's lame in the end. There's no competition because everybody gets something, and people won't put effort since in the end they all get something, it won't matter if they work or not on their entries.

Sorry, Em. 

As for Avatars, more than Avatar of the Week, maybe it could be something like an Avatar battledome. It looks more exciting to me, at least, than another contest.


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## ~M~ (Oct 14, 2015)

mediocre effort is more activity than no activity 

and current activity is still mediocre because you get participation points when only 3 people enter. Why not only give points to the winner when there's three entries, with this logic?


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## Krory (Oct 15, 2015)

I propose a nude carwash to garner attention for the section.

I volunteer.


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## ~M~ (Oct 15, 2015)

Thanks krory


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## ~M~ (Oct 15, 2015)

No comments? 

I think I kind of got you by the balls about 'participation points' when we give them when there's 3 entries already.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 15, 2015)

There's nothing else to comment, Em. I dislike giving points just for participation. It's true we do that when there are just three persons, but that's not something that happens every week, since we expect more people taking part.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 15, 2015)

Hey, Corazon. Are you staying in the section?


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## ~M~ (Oct 16, 2015)

It's happening more often than not there's 3 or fewer entries a week than before, by far, the past was never a struggle to get entries. 

EXACTLY what is it you don't like about participation points.



> It's lame in the end.


So is low turn out and sitting around waiting for more entries  



> There's no competition because everybody gets something, and people won't put effort since in the end they all get something, it won't matter if they work or not on their entries.


How are you seeing this??? If someone puts in effort, and beats 5 people, he should get 5 poiints. Do you really think someone has the consistency to make a terrible entry to get 1 point for 15 weeks to get a prize?? No one would do that. This ONLY rewards people who are consistently trying to improve their art skills, and FURTHER rewarding people who win.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 16, 2015)

i like the idea of easier-to-get prizes


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## Krory (Oct 16, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Do you really think someone has the consistency to make a terrible entry to get 1 point for 15 weeks to get a prize??



Considering roughly 98% of people enter for prizes now, yes.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Oct 16, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> i like the idea of easier-to-get prizes



Religion of PRIZES


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## ~M~ (Oct 16, 2015)

God damn this schizophrenic section do we want quality or do we want activity??? 

I'm just trying to put bodies in the seats, people

edit: and krory look back a page and read about ultear's saint -ike integrity about not prizes, the love of the online challenge 

If someone has the tenacity to make 15 terrible entries over the course of 4 months to get a prize and they have entered every damn week, they deserve a prize, end of story. That's dedication to art, or dedication to trolling, who gives a shit.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 16, 2015)

Em, we want a bit of both. We want members to come here for the art itself first and then for the prizes. Naturally, there are people who want to earn big avatars/sparkles or whatnot so we've decided to reduce the amount of points to win a prize, thus we get a balance of activity and quality. 

We appreciate you dishing ideas though, so please keep them coming.


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## ~M~ (Oct 16, 2015)

Kory and Luc are echoing what I'm saying, more rewards. More rewards = more performance that's a basic psychological principle. 

So I don't get this hostility towards participation points when A) participation is in the name, we want people participating, and B) we still have a point system


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## Krory (Oct 16, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Kory and Luc are echoing what I'm saying, more rewards. More rewards = more performance that's a basic psychological principle.
> 
> So I don't get this hostility towards participation points when A) participation is in the name, we want people participating, and B) we still have a point system



I have not said this at all. In fact, I'm quite against the concept of more prizes because the art section basically *is* the "prize/contest" section right now. I've been saying that since this thread and the one in the Shitterbox came up. Though the shoop contest is a nice idea and it has sparked some interest (at least the first one did, I admittedly didn't look in on the second one). But I was saying it needs more legitimate art appreciation, which is why I suggested the art magazine and all. Thankfully, at least Trin picked up on that. And of course the tutorials bit but everyone was too hung up on asking, "Hey, what tutorials do YOU want to see?" or the very select few complaining when someone makes a tutorial and asks why _they_ weren't asked or consulted about tutorials.

Then again, anything not-prize-related will likely not garner attention because, again... people come for the prizes primarily anymore. This is true for any section. But I in no way am echoing your cry for more prizes, permanent prizes, or participation points. Whether it draws more activity or not, I don't like the idea.

But we all know I ain't no artist. 

Though I might say... people were asked specifically for suggestions on improving, but they were never really asked flat-out why they never come to the art section, or why some never come back. It could be something as simple as a lack of activity on part of the members in general, but y'never know... maybe that could shed some light. Simple-minded and inane suggestion, yes, but sometimes simple works.


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## Krory (Oct 16, 2015)

Though knowing my luck, if you were to ask people why they don't come it'll be, "Because it's too hard to win prizes."


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## ~M~ (Oct 16, 2015)

So what I'm gathering is that you recognize people want prizes you just don't want them to have them 

Son this isn't art school though. But I can start to select SOTW, SKOTF and POTF winning entries, make a thread, and write about their formal, conceptual, aesthetic qualities that make them successful pieces and maybe that can spark discussion but I doubt it will because people tend not to talk negatively about gfx work done here for some reason and when there's nothing to contest, the discussion ends at "I like it. It's nice." 

And I highly doubt there's a lot of artistic conception to delve into to discuss over with most gfx pieces


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 16, 2015)

Em we have discussed what you've suggested and came up with a compromise. A user who enters a contest (sotw, skotw, potw and Psotw) 4 times a month, will be rewarded 4 points by the end of that month. So if you joined sotw, skotw, potw and sotw again, then you will get 4 points because you have entered. It can also stay strictly sotw, you don't have to venture into other contests which aren't your virtue. However, if you don't enter 4 times, you won't get any points. That's the best we can do.

Oh and the entry has to be a good entry, not a half finished one.

Edit 2: 

I'd like to point out that we'll start doing that only next month (November)


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## Robin (Oct 16, 2015)

Vino said:


> Em we have discussed what you've suggested and came up with a compromise. A user who enters a contest (sotw, skotw, potw and Psotw) 4 times a month, will be rewarded 4 points by the end of that month. So if you joined sotw, skotw, potw and sotw again, then you will get 4 points because you have entered. It can also stay strictly sotw, you don't have to venture into other contests which aren't your virtue. However, if you don't enter 4 times, you won't get any points. That's the best we can do.



wait, really? I haven't heard of this. 



You know, guys, I actually agree with Em.
Doing art is hard, it takes patience, extra brain juices to come up with something, and plus we are all busy doing other things, etc. So if I'm a random NF member with some art skills, why would I wanna contribute to activity? I didn't create this section, I'm not a mod, and I come to NF to have fun and hone my dorky social skills. The art section has nothing to do with me._ Just because I have art skills doesn't oblige me to participate_. I didn't come here to work hard. If you want me to contribute, you better give me something in return. 
The bottom line is that the prizes are too hard to win. 
Also I doubt that rising activity would reduce quality, on the contrary, it would boost quality significantly just from the increased entries.

The most logical compromise here imo is giving short-term prizes. A big ava or sparkly name for a month. Us humans can't work well long term unless the goal is worth it. So having a big ava for three months after working your butt off in competitions is not cost effective for a lot of people. So, breaking up the goal into smaller goals is a textbook time management strategy. Therefore if you can give people instant gratification like a big ava for a month for 7 points (a third of 21 points, I believe that's the price of prizes), then you'll see a lot more people getting excited over it. Leave the option of having the big avas for 3 months after collecting 21 points if that's what people want. 

I may be wrong on the number of points, but my point is give them something quick and short-term that they can get after winning like a first place plus a second place. 

Besides, since the art section is mostly circled around contestd, why would you expect people to _not_ expect prizes? The system itself makes them desire payment for work. The "doing art" part is just a fun bonus.




haha that was slightly more than one sentence


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## Krory (Oct 16, 2015)

How can you say the "doing art" part is a fun bonus when you're saying it needs to be given a prize?  Apparently it's not THAT fun if simply sharing your art, getting comments, compliments, and/or critiques aren't enough.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 16, 2015)

Actually, as it is now, it isn't that hard to get a big avatar for three months. There are many contests after all and, with even participation points and since the prizes are cheaper now, it wouldn't take long for anyone to get a prize. It is also less work for everyone involved, as we must have to also take into account admins to add or remove the prizes, and I must note the prize and request it in HR, and keep track of it to remove it.


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## Robin (Oct 16, 2015)

Lara Croft said:


> How can you say the "doing art" part is a fun bonus when you're saying it needs to be given a prize?  Apparently it's not THAT fun if simply sharing your art, getting comments, compliments, and/or critiques aren't enough.



it's a basic psychological trick. 
They illustrate it in psychology with a little story. 
There was one owner of a retail shop. In front of his shop every day a bunch of rowdy teenagers gathered with their motorbikes and scared customers away with the way they looked. So he decided to do a little trick to get rid of them. One day he came out and said: "I'll pay you 50$ a day for staying here, you guys are keeping the other gangs away and it helps my shop from robbers". The teenagers agreed. After a month of paying them he said: "You know, my business is not doing so well, and I can't pay you anymore, I'm sorry". The teenagers left and never came back again.

When you start getting paid for something fun it stops being fun so you don't wanna continue unless you're paid. 




ane, I think I need to take a look at the prize rules again.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 16, 2015)

Robin, I don't think that's gonna work since people might get pissed that they have to put so much effort to get a month only big avatar/sparkles/bold username or whatnot so the current system will stay. Besides, all the prizes have been reduced so it's easier to get them now. Here's the list:

Bold usertitle - 5 points
Colored/moving custom usertitle - 7 points
Sparkles on your username - 9 points
Picture in custom usertitle - 12 points
Extra Big avatar (175x250) - 15 points
Extra Name Change - 18 points


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## Robin (Oct 16, 2015)

oh thanks, Vino

I guess we only need to let people know. Remind them of the changed prizes rules when doing advertised contests.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 16, 2015)

Robin said:


> oh thanks, Vino
> 
> I guess we only need to let people know. Remind them of the changed prizes rules when doing advertised contests.



Working on it.


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## Krory (Oct 16, 2015)

So as it stands, with the Participation Point consideration, you could literally get a three-month picture-in-user-title with _only_ three months of participation.

Which is cool for lazy people like me, but yeah.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 16, 2015)

Lara Croft said:


> So as it stands, with the Participation Point consideration, you could literally get a three-month picture-in-user-title with _only_ three months of participation.
> 
> Which is cool for lazy people like me, but yeah.



Yeah, but only if you join 4 contests a month, nothing less. We're starting to initiate that on November tho so you can stay lazy if you want.


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## Krory (Oct 16, 2015)

Vino said:


> Yeah, but only if you join 4 contests a month, nothing less. We're starting to initiate that on November tho so you can stay lazy if you want.



Is it more for more?  Though this will mean I have to cross-wander since now technically we only get like two or three SotWs a month if it stays like this.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 16, 2015)

You get 4 points for entering 4 contests in a month. So if you like SotW and enter 4 times a month then you will get 4 points.


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## ~M~ (Oct 17, 2015)

That's a happy compromise  

How about we have section moderators from now own in their character of the month threads have it be a redirect to a new subsection in the HVOA called "Characters of the Month" where each anime/mange gets it's own thread. This way the members are made aware of the HVOA and it's contests and the current regulars are made aware of the characters of the month contests.


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## Krory (Oct 17, 2015)

So no Halloween set thing this year?


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 17, 2015)

Lara Croft said:


> So no Halloween set thing this year?


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 17, 2015)

em senpai said:


> That's a happy compromise
> 
> How about we have section moderators from now own in their character of the month threads have it be a redirect to a new subsection in the HVOA called "Characters of the Month" where each anime/mange gets it's own thread. This way the members are made aware of the HVOA and it's contests and the current regulars are made aware of the characters of the month contests.



Em, we can't do that. We can't steal other section activities, and it's related to OP after all. I can't tell other mods to host their activities in this section because that would be unfair to them. They are working for it after all.


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## Krory (Oct 17, 2015)

Pumpkin carving != Set exchange


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 17, 2015)

Lara Croft said:


> Pumpkin carving != Set exchange



It's still Halloween based. Maybe give it a chance?


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## ~M~ (Oct 17, 2015)

ane said:


> Em, we can't do that. We can't steal other section activities, and it's related to OP after all. I can't tell other mods to host their activities in this section because that would be unfair to them. They are working for it after all.



So... We can't give instant prizes or participation points and other sections, as the art section, but non art sections can? :faceplam 

The section mod would still choose the topic. They will just make a redirect thread and it's less work for them to manage. 

Also I was under the impression naruto and bleach have a COTM contest too. 

Plus we treat section banners in the same way. Isn't the HVOA supposed to host all NF related activities in the first place?


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## Kitsune (Oct 18, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Isn't the HVOA supposed to host all NF related activities in the first place?



No. Where did you get that idea?


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## Krory (Oct 18, 2015)

And if you really thought that, why were you so adamant about Flash Fiction and Book Club not being here?


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## ~M~ (Oct 18, 2015)

Because it's silly to host graphics contests outside the art section  

That's like a guitar contest in naruto avatar.

Yeah it's related to naruto but it makes more sense to put in the music section. Not to mention actually USING these dying sections seems to be the goal but I can never tell right now.


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## ~M~ (Oct 18, 2015)

Lara Croft said:


> And if you really thought that, why were you so adamant about Flash Fiction and Book Club not being here?



Because we have a literature section. I didn't think they needed to be merged. Your comparison makes no sense


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 18, 2015)

Other sections can have the contests that they want to organize and they think that they fit in their sections. Not our place to tell them how to run their contests, and you are agreeing that CotM is related to the manga, after all.


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## ~M~ (Oct 18, 2015)

It would be nice of them to support the art section


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## GIORNO (Oct 18, 2015)

Vino said:


> Em we have discussed what you've suggested and came up with a compromise. A user who enters a contest (sotw, skotw, potw and Psotw) 4 times a month, will be rewarded 4 points by the end of that month. So if you joined sotw, skotw, potw and sotw again, then you will get 4 points because you have entered. It can also stay strictly sotw, you don't have to venture into other contests which aren't your virtue. However, if you don't enter 4 times, you won't get any points. That's the best we can do.
> 
> Oh and the entry has to be a good entry, not a half finished one.
> 
> ...



What is deemed a good entry though?

Like for me I'm not that great with the stuff you'd see Ul make but that doesn't mean my sig is unfinished, it just means I did all I could do to make it look acceptable.


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## Krory (Oct 18, 2015)

There'd be lots of nice things for the art section, but clearly not all of that is happening.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 18, 2015)

Ares said:


> What is deemed a good entry though?
> 
> Like for me I'm not that great with the stuff you'd see Ul make but that doesn't mean my sig is unfinished, it just means I did all I could do to make it look acceptable.



The ones where it's obvious you didn't put any effort into them. 

You know those are easy to spot so don't worry.


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## GIORNO (Oct 18, 2015)

ane said:


> The ones where it's obvious you didn't put any effort into them.
> 
> You know those are easy to spot so don't worry.



Yeah true enough. 

I'll probably start entering SOTW more frequently with that 4-point rule thing 'cause otherwise it's too depressing to display my inexperienced stuff in public.


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## GIORNO (Oct 18, 2015)

Have you seen the shit I made when it's not just colour adjustments?


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 19, 2015)

Ares said:


> Yeah true enough.
> 
> I'll probably start entering SOTW more frequently with that 4-point rule thing 'cause otherwise it's too depressing to display my inexperienced stuff in public.



This wasn't meant to discourage folks from entering. It was only made to prevent users of entering with a pretty bad entry just so they could abuse the points gain. I think your stuff are alright as is.


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## Krory (Oct 19, 2015)

Ares said:


> Have you seen the shit I made when it's not just colour adjustments?



Have you seen the shit I make?! Lol. But I see your shop stuff and you're good. As Blunt put it, I just do the same thing over and expect different results.  And then whine about it.


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## GIORNO (Oct 19, 2015)

Vino said:


> This wasn't meant to discourage folks from entering. It was only made to prevent users of entering with a pretty bad entry just so they could abuse the points gain. I think your stuff are alright as is.



Well I'm pretty demotivated to begin with so no worries.

Though thanks, I wish I had the patience to try and get better. 



Lara Croft said:


> Have you seen the shit I make?! Lol. But I see your shop stuff and you're good. As Blunt put it, I just do the same thing over and expect different results.  And then whine about it.



Yeah but all I ever do is colour adjusts and whatnot so I guess we're in the same boat.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Oct 19, 2015)

You know, Ares. I think that what you do is fine enough. You do colour modifications but the result looks beautiful, so that means you have a good eye for it. Maybe you can take SotW to try new things, if you feel like it


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## Brian (Oct 20, 2015)

Pretty hard to move the art department up in the forum but some circle jerk section with no purpose is at the top of the forum now

Bravo!


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 24, 2015)

Testing


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## Mider T (Oct 24, 2015)

Brian said:


> Pretty hard to move the art department up in the forum but some circle jerk section with no purpose is at the top of the forum now
> 
> Bravo!



You mean the joke section that's now gone?


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## Big Bοss (Oct 24, 2015)

Reply 4 days later


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## Deleted member 73050 (Oct 27, 2015)

The staff and I were working on integrating new prizes for the contests winners. So far we have added 3 new "sparkles" that are now available for you to choose from. 

Here are the previews: 







You can get them with the same amount of points for sparkles 

Ah and for those who are interested, the effects are from Mortal Kombat


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## ~M~ (Nov 10, 2015)

So can we talk about the state of the contests? 

Why are the participation rates so abysmal atm? Or is this just a lull


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## Deleted member 161031 (Nov 10, 2015)

Yes, we need to bring more people to the section. We are trying, linking them to it, trying new prizes... What do you suggest? :/


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## ~M~ (Nov 10, 2015)

lmao we should punish people for not entering  I don't know why Ul hasn't entered in forever but it might just be the change in time for the end? 

Personally, I'll try to ask more people to enter occasionally. Not to be pushy 

This may be an odd proposal but I think our forum should try to form alliances with other, small forums perhaps, especially maybe some gfx oriented ones? A lot of forums, I haven't visited any in a long time so this is off my memory, have 'partners' or such that they link to in a way and we link to them so there's a bit of advertisement for both of us. That would require admin involvement, being the main problem 

I just don't understand why oldfags are leaving... 

It's hard to attract newcomers. Maybe creating a usergoup for new artists(and old) with a subforum only they can see for spam and fun talk, with the bonus as simple and stupid (but maybe alluring) of *Artist * as userrank or user title. Maybe if we all had a chill place to talk and socialized more we would all be more involved 

I'll think more about things later these are my first thoughts


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## Robin (Nov 10, 2015)

An "artist" usergroup would be cool  
like regular artists, even those who don't win, are granted membership in a group and given some designation like a user title with a brush stroke or something of the sort. Maybe even a different image for rep.


I think my drawing practice thread has been a flop. It's been over a month and no participants. I think it's best to merged it with my drawing tutorial thread  And I myself don't have time to practice


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## ~M~ (Nov 14, 2015)

Vino said:
			
		

> Anyways, this thread doesn't help one bit.


Hey, I think that's a little rude. I made my thread in the chatterbox to get attention from people that don't come here. In a much shorter span of time it got bigger than this thread and yeah there was some spam but there was a lot of contribution posts 

It could even be merged into this thread


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## Deleted member 73050 (Nov 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Hey, I think that's a little rude. I made my thread in the chatterbox to get attention from people that don't come here. In a much shorter span of time it got bigger than this thread and yeah there was some spam but there was a lot of contribution posts
> 
> It could even be merged into this thread



- I already made the same thread but worded differently 

- Thread basically turned into "why I'm lazy" and "Why art is not inspiring to me" instead of actually trying to help

I appreciate the gesture, but no.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Nov 14, 2015)

Getting awareness to the section is good but  that thread reached a point where it was better talking among ourselves about ideas of how to improve it.


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## ~M~ (Nov 14, 2015)

I understand


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## Shinobu (Nov 15, 2015)

Hmm, here are my thoughts:

1. What about the event planer I suggested here:  for a better survey and information for beginners. I'd help organizing/writing it if needed.
(Probably also mentioning there for what you get points: "winning, entries, giveaways etc."

2. The main question seems to be: How to attract new people/beginners? So what about an Art Section Event organized as a contest with a jury where everyone except for the jury members can enter and win an instant prize.
For example:
Make an avatar - a jury out of the Art section mods and regulars/good artists will pick the top 3.
If you win you'll get an instant prize and your avatar gets uploaded as common NF ava. 2. + 3. place get a decent amount of points to be motivated to join more contests.
Like this you'll also avoid the frustration that artists like Em and Ul may cause.  Let's be honest: I _love_ Ul's work, but you can pretty much forget winning anything if he enters. Same goes for Em and JayJay. 

3. I've been watching the contests overall and it seems like for example the Akihabara contests get more entries, even though it is just "make an ava, banner, sig" too. Others like the cooking challenge for example get a ton of entries.
So how about making the art section more popular by merging all contests section under the art section and probably moving the art section higher on the front page?
As an idea:



> *Hidden Village of Art Section*
> 
> *Art Exihibit*
> 
> ...



Like this it'll be still possible for the sections to have their own point system, but you may draw more attention to the art section itself + a better survey for everyone who doesn't know the contest system or never paid attention to it.

4. Prizes  Not sure about that. You can always attract more people with better prizes, but the problem is how to make them stay after they won a prize. Not sure how to solve this problem tbh. A super special prize for a high amount of points seems to be an idea to begin with.


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## ~M~ (Nov 15, 2015)

> 2. The main question seems to be: How to attract new people/beginners? So what about an Art Section Event organized as a contest with a jury where everyone except for the jury members can enter and win an instant prize.
> For example:
> Make an avatar - a jury out of the Art section mods and regulars/good artists will pick the top 3.
> If you win you'll get an instant prize and your avatar gets uploaded as common NF ava. 2. + 3. place get a decent amount of points to be motivated to join more contests.
> Like this you'll also avoid the frustration that artists like Em and Ul may cause.  Let's be honest: I love Ul's work, but you can pretty much forget winning anything if he enters. Same goes for Em and JayJay.


i like this idea and would gladly sit on a judge panel for a special contest, perhaps there can even be full tournaments. We'll call the contest "Artist Idol" or "Gold Cup Mode". The judges will do short paragraphs about why they vote the way they vote 

I would support an instant prize but the muds here are strictly opposed to this idea (despite other section's set competitions instant prizes??) so I don't see that happening.

What would the judges get in exchange? Points or what about a permanent custom title/big ava 



> . I've been watching the contests overall and it seems like for example the Akihabara contests get more entries, even though it is just "make an ava, banner, sig" too. Others like the cooking challenge for example get a ton of entries.
> So how about making the art section more popular by merging all contests section under the art section and probably moving the art section higher on the front page?
> As an idea:


I proposed this and Ane said she 'didn't want to intrude into other moderators teritories, they may run their sections as they please'. Which is a fair enough reason but I side with you I think it would be beneficial for all, more organization, more temptation to join other contests, and access to shops/giveaway for more casual members. 

There's also the matter however that this will require more moderation. Perhaps trinity could rejoin or another mud could be added.



> You can always attract more people with better prizes, but the problem is how to make them stay after they won a prize. Not sure how to solve this problem tbh. A super special prize for a high amount of points seems to be an idea to begin with.


Lol give us a colored name like advisors and make the title Artist


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## Shinobu (Nov 15, 2015)

> What would the judges get in exchange? Points or what about a permanent custom title/big ava




I admit I didn't think about getting something for this, but an artist custom title if you're a regular and invest your time in this section would be fair anough. 




> I proposed this and Ane said she 'didn't want to intrude into other moderators teritories, they may run their sections as they please'. Which is a fair enough reason but I side with you I think it would be beneficial for all, more organization, more temptation to join other contests, and access to shops/giveaway for more casual members.




Was thinking about this and I understand it, that's why I'd only suggest a "front page cosmetic for the art section". I'd say the mods can still stay and organize everything in their section contest subforum.


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## ~M~ (Nov 15, 2015)

Well for a contest you need to make a convo thread, an entry thread, and a voting thread, and that can be a lot of work especially for a section mod. 

If we had another mud who could take on work, when sections want a contest they can just tell this new person to hold the event for them. This does two things, lightens the workload of section mods (100% as they want done), and may mean that section mods can be encouraged to hold more contests perhaps even weekly or section mods who normally wouldn't do this work can pass it on to someone new. 

Then again, will we just reach 'contest overload' this way? I suppose not since these contests are already going on.. Damn there's a lot of art contests for some reason


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## Shinobu (Nov 15, 2015)

Yeah, I know it's a lot of work.

But how the mods want to organize it is their business and choice in the end.

I'd say leave the contests for every section as they are, with their mods and their own point system, just merge all of them on the front page for a better survey and a chance to get the art section more popular.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Nov 15, 2015)

Holding all contests here have a number of perks but its nothing we can do of it. We cant tell other mods what to do.

Vino and I can manage for now. Dont worry anout that. We wont stop trying things because of mod coverage. For now us two can do pretty well


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## ~M~ (Nov 15, 2015)

Oh I know I  was only saying IF we adopted those 6 new contests 

That would be a lot of work no  and as I said I know you already said no to the idea before


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## ~M~ (Nov 16, 2015)

I have a contest idea 

We have a lottery. For every signature/shoop you make, you get a 'lottery ticket' 

Then when the thread closes for the week/fortnight/month, you list out every 'lottery ticket earned' and randomly generate a number. Wherever on the list that number lands, that member is the winner! 

This would be a great way for new people to earn points, practice, and have a little fun of never knowing who will win. And people will want to make quality stuff, to put in the giveaway if it doesn't win... Veterans can have some fun too by making entries in their downtime of shop/giveaway/finished with other contest. 

It could be 1-3 points, I think 3 points will attract the most members though.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm gonna address those offers:



Shinobu said:


> Hmm, here are my thoughts:
> 
> 1. What about the event planer I suggested here:  for a better survey and information for beginners. I'd help organizing/writing it if needed.
> (Probably also mentioning there for what you get points: "winning, entries, giveaways etc."
> ...



1) Thanks for the offer, but I don't think we need any events managing, especially when we have a fixed schedule.

2) Jury voters? I don't think that's gonna work, since we work with the democracy system. Things like these can get messy too, especially when you can get accused for being biased.  As for attracting beginners, I think the AotW and PSotW are rather okay for new artists. An avatar doesn't have to be complex nor a shoop. 

3) They are more popular because it's about something else. Akihabara for example is about anime series and there are many people who go there and discuss stuff. Here it's minimum art and that's about it. Merging contests to HVOA? I don't think other mods would like the idea that their contests will boost popularity to a section that isn't theirs. 

4) I'm actually working on that part. Visual prizes are very limited due to the software we're currently on. Trust me, the other sparkles (besides lightning) were meant to look much better than what we have now. 




em senpai said:


> i like this idea and would gladly sit on a judge panel for a special contest, perhaps there can even be full tournaments. We'll call the contest "Artist Idol" or "Gold Cup Mode". The judges will do short paragraphs about why they vote the way they vote
> 
> I would support an instant prize but the muds here are strictly opposed to this idea (despite other section's set competitions instant prizes??) so I don't see that happening.
> 
> ...



Thanks for offering to be one of the Jury but as I said above the idea won't work.

Instant prizes is a big no, especially when we work with a system called points. 

We won't get anything. 

As I said above, I doubt other mods would like to have their contests sticked to HVOA and not their section. 



em senpai said:


> Well for a contest you need to make a convo thread, an entry thread, and a voting thread, and that can be a lot of work especially for a section mod.
> 
> If we had another mud who could take on work, when sections want a contest they can just tell this new person to hold the event for them. This does two things, lightens the workload of section mods (100% as they want done), and may mean that section mods can be encouraged to hold more contests perhaps even weekly or section mods who normally wouldn't do this work can pass it on to someone new.
> 
> Then again, will we just reach 'contest overload' this way? I suppose not since these contests are already going on.. Damn there's a lot of art contests for some reason



I may sound arrogant, but I think I'm managing with ane fine so far. I don't think an extra mod is necessary for this, unless someone runs me over and I die. 



em senpai said:


> I have a contest idea
> 
> We have a lottery. For every signature/shoop you make, you get a 'lottery ticket'
> 
> ...



Uhm, I don't get it. You mean people will post their entry, and will be given a random number/ticket and thus the winner will be determined by rolling the generated numbers and the winner will be picked?

uhh.... I don't think this idea is that good...maybe we should stick to simple concepts.


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## ~M~ (Nov 16, 2015)

> I may sound arrogant, but I think I'm managing with ane fine so far. I don't think an extra mod is necessary for this, unless someone runs me over and I die.


I was only throwing out the fact that DOUBLING the number of contests, like shinobu's proposal is, would double the work. 

I'm not questioning you currently  It's that I like shinobu's idea and if you guys wouldn't mind DOUBLE work that's fine I was just proposing trinity could come back to help with that. 



> Uhm, I don't get it. You mean people will post their entry, and will be given a random number/ticket and thus the winner will be determined by rolling the generated numbers and the winner will be picked?
> 
> uhh.... I don't think this idea is that good...maybe we should stick to simple concepts


You enter as many sigs as you would like, and at the end of the week, to choose a winner, a list will be made. Your name will be on the list for the number of sigs/shoops. 

example: 

em
em
em
ane
ane
ane
ane
vino
vino
trinity 

And then using an online random number generator: 8 is the number picked 
so 8th on the list wins 
In this case it's Vino 

This would allow people who 'feel like they can't compete' really participate in the contests because there's no competition besides effort! Newbies get to practice and make lots of entries, and veterans may enter a couple but they're usually busy with something else.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Nov 16, 2015)

But we can't just doubling contests for the sake of it. We need to think of what contests, they should make sense, and not hurt other contests. Other mods don't want to take their activity to this section so that is not an option either. Still, both Vino and I can manage right now and we are talking of new contests and activities that we can manage too.

As for the lottery, while it might be a fun idea, we already have participation points for people who take part in contests, and both giveaways and shops are not contests. We value all work that is posted, it's not a competition, so I don't really see the point.


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## ~M~ (Nov 16, 2015)

> Still, both Vino and I can manage right now and we are talking of new contests and activities that we can manage too.


I've known, and we all told Shinobu, I was just thinking through if it had been a thing. 



> As for the lottery, while it might be a fun idea, we already have participation points for people who take part in contests, and both giveaways and shops are not contests. We value all work that is posted, it's not a competition, so I don't really see the point.


I think the participation points aren't encouraging enough for newbies... It's participation in 4 weeks in a row, right? Not 4 contests entered? I just hope newbies can stick it out and not get discouraged. I think my contest idea would be different from the other competitions because it would reward practicing (every sig you enter has to be somewhat different) and posting. 

I'll try to think of another way of newbie encouragement.


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## Deleted member 161031 (Nov 16, 2015)

It's four contests in a month. We have five scheduled contests. It is not difficult to enter four contests, I think


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## ~M~ (Nov 16, 2015)

Fair enough. 

I had merely had the idea suddenly and wanted to get it out before I forgot. Maybe other members will find it a good idea, maybe stupid


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## Deleted member 161031 (Dec 14, 2015)

*Shop workers Reward*

To show our appreciation for all the work that shop workers do for the forum and to adjust it to the points we give to people who post in the Giveaways, we have increased the amount of points we reward shop workers with ~


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## Robin (Dec 14, 2015)

Build something with your hands contest. Can use cardboard, clay, wood, paper, etc.


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