# Jiraiya vs MS Sasuke



## Itachі (Dec 23, 2015)

*Location:* Amegakure

*Distance:* 25 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Full for Jiraiya, Manga for Sasuke

*Additional Info:* Sasuke has clear vision


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2015)

Sasuke knows Jiraiya is dangerous but doesn't explicitly know about SM at that point. With that in mind Sauce probably won't Ama off the bat, or use Susano arrow. That will be his downfall. J-man is going to be out using clones, doton, LOS blockers, summon, etc to get the fuck away from Sasuke and use the terrain of Ama to peace out and prep SM. Sauce has no way other than snakes to sense here, problem is their olfactory sensing is mitigated by constant rain, and their temp sensing only works in contained environments (like a cave), or close range. 

Conversely, J-man can hop in a toad inside of a puddle, or hide in Gamabunta inside of some building with sensing barrier to pick up on Sasuke if he gets into his sensing vicinity. With full knowledge, J- Man will know he can't just Odama Rasnegan his way out of this. He'll have the speed/necessary jutsu thanks to Ma an Pa (dust cloud, Fuuton) to avoid ama, and susano arrows, and eventually he should be able to end Sauce with Frog Song.

J- Man wins mid to High diff.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 23, 2015)

That depends. If Sasuke was aware of the fact that Jiraiya was one of the Legendary Sannin, Sasuke would win quite easily as Sasuke respected Orochimaru's power, so he's likely going to take necessary precautions such as Amaterasu or Susano'o, none of which Jiraiya can really handle. 

 With Toad Gourd Prison, I can see Jiraiya managing to prepare Sage Mode, but all of that is useless when Susano'o Arrow comes into play which Jiraiya can't counter as Susano'o Arrow was fast enough to the point where Kakashi barely managed to warp it away with Kamui. Jiraiya's not managing a physical reaction such as performing Hand Seals or Smoke Bombs before Susano'o tags him and Amaterasu is a viable counter against Jiraiya's Summons or Ma and Pa.

 I see Sasuke winning more times than not. He was implied to be on par with SM Naruto (Kage Summit) who already surpassed SM Jiraiya.


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## Duhul10 (Dec 24, 2015)

Of course Sm Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in The sage arts. But Jiraiya has The Sage toads and The speed advantage + agility and versatility, So The fact that Sasuke was on par with that Naruto is not a good argument


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2015)

Lol when has the Ms sasuke that fought Danzo not used susanoo arrow off the bat 
He had no issues using it against kakashi

The arrows however can be evaded by jiriaya . Amaterasu countered by the fire scroll 

Think it's a tough one


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## Duhul10 (Dec 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol when has the Ms sasuke that fought Danzo not used susanoo arrow off the bat
> He had no issues using it against kakashi
> 
> The arrows however can be evaded by jiriaya . Amaterasu countered by the fire scroll
> ...



oh, man.. long time no see


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## Itachі (Dec 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol when has the Ms sasuke that fought Danzo not used susanoo arrow off the bat
> He had no issues using it against kakashi
> 
> The arrows however can be evaded by jiriaya . Amaterasu countered by the fire scroll
> ...



I don't think Jiraiya's evading arrows easily, even Kakashi couldn't avoid an arrow and he was forced to warp it instead.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 24, 2015)

Jiraya doesn't have any Jutsu without mudra that could stop Amaterasu or Susano'o arrow=>He is raped .


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## Duhul10 (Dec 24, 2015)

Itachі said:


> I don't think Jiraiya's evading arrows easily, even Kakashi couldn't avoid an arrow and he was forced to warp it instead.



He surely does not do it easily. But with the sensing  and reactions he has  he would  be able to avoid it. Though I do not think he would be able to survive a susanoo arrow spam, without a trick or some bunshins.
That kakashi is technically the pain arc kakashi and he is nowhere as fast or phisically reactive as Jiraiya.


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## Itachі (Dec 24, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> He surely does not do it easily. But with the sensing  and reactions he has  he would  be able to avoid it. Though I do not think he would be able to survive a susanoo arrow spam, without a trick or some bunshins.
> That kakashi is technically the pain arc kakashi and he is nowhere as fast or phisically reactive as Jiraiya.



If Jiraiya was in SM, I think that he'd be able to dodge them with little problem. Here though, he doesn't start in SM. Pain Arc Kakashi nearly killed Deva Path on a few occassions, I do believe that he has better reflexes than Base Jiraiya.


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## Icegaze (Dec 24, 2015)

Itachі said:


> I don't think Jiraiya's evading arrows easily, even Kakashi couldn't avoid an arrow and he was forced to warp it instead.



Not easily however SM makes jiriaya faster and gives jiriaya better reactions than pain arc kakashi 

Also clones sort of make it hard to hit the real jiriaya considering sasuke must aim a specific target

Base jiriaya can still form seals to summon before the arrow murders him so he should be fine even starting in base against the arrows


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 25, 2015)

Jiraiya traps Susanoo with Gamayudan and then finishes Sasuke off with Frog song.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 25, 2015)

Sasuke obliterates him with ease.

-Can't dodge Amaterasu, but he can block LoS to prevent it. But that doesn't last forever.
-Can't dodge Susanoo Arrows nor can he block them. Not sure what the people above are talking about though. "SM granting speed and sensing"=/=SM Jiraiya having the speed necessary to dodge them. Unless someone has a feat that puts him on Kabuto's level there is no arguing that he does what Kabuto did, and what Kakashi w/ Sharingan's precognition couldn't physically react to.
-Can't penetrate Susanoo.
-Can't survive long enough to use Gama Rinsho.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 25, 2015)

Does Jiraiya start with SM and Ma/Pa summoned? If yes then he may win with hard to extreme difficulty. Ma and Pa are a dangerous duo which combined with Jiraiya limitless supply of SM due to having those two gather energy for him make him potentially even more dangerous than Pain arc SM Naruto even if the latter had greater mastery of SM than his master.

If Jiraiya starts in base then it will be very hard for him to enter SM. Itachi casually Amaterasu'd boss level summons so Sasuke with an even greater skill with Amaterasu than Itachi would deal with someone like Gamaken very easily. Genjutsu ownage of a boss summon and potentially turning it against Jiraiya are also an option. Jiraiya in base doesn't stand much of a chance and he needs plenty of time to enter SM. 

Also if Sasuke tries to use Kirin or can use V4 Susanoo then Jiraiya is even more helpless.


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## Icegaze (Dec 25, 2015)

Lol YN means he don't need to breach susanoo 
Frog call also means he don't need to breach susanoo he by passes it 

Danzo could react to susanoo arrow and form seals jiriaya will do the same no issues


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol YN means he don't need to breach susanoo
> Frog call also means he don't need to breach susanoo he by passes it
> 
> Danzo could react to susanoo arrow and form seals jiriaya will do the same no issues



Yomi Numa is easily evaded, or summoning pushes him right out of the mud. Frog Call is also irrelevant as all hell since it paralyzes the user, not the Susanoo nor do you have any proof of it being able to disable Susanoo like White Rage did.

And Danzo didn't react to Susanoo Arrow. I highly highly _highly_ suggest you read that chapter again because the whole point of Danzo using Mokuton (which only requires mental input) was because he couldn't physically react. So all you've proven is that Jiraiya can mentally react, but not physically. Physically he can't react. He gets hit and dies.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 25, 2015)

Jiraiya can't deal with Sasuke's offense, especially considering that he is extremely trigger happy when it comes to MS.
Susano'o arrows combined with Amaterasu make short work of Jiraiya, whether is in SM or not.



Icegaze said:


> Danzo could react to susanoo arrow and form seals jiriaya will do the same no issues



He actually couldn't. That is why he used Mokuton to save his ass. 

Both Kakashi and Danzo were able to react to Susano'o arrows with seal-less jutsu activation. Jiriaya gets caught in a similar situation and he is dead.


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## Alex Payne (Dec 25, 2015)

If Jiraiya decides to instantly go guerrilla tactics+SM prep abusing location advantage - he wins eventually. If he tries his usual shit with dancing and bravado - he dies. He has full knowledge though but I am not sure what he'd choose to do IC.


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## ARGUS (Dec 25, 2015)

Sasuke wins mid diff 

 -- Susanoo arrow one shots. Jiraiya can't Evade it. And LoS blocking tactics are useless when sasuke can still aim them at jiriayas prior location and just shoot it because jiriayas not moving an inch before the arrow lands and one shots. And he can't form a defense to protect himself from the arrow either 

 -- Mothing in jiriayas Arsenal can counter susnaoo. Raiton counters yomi numa, and all of his attacks are tanked no diff. Until jiraiya eventually gets diced in half by a susnaoo slash. Especially when he's not fast enough to dance around its attacks nor can he form a defense against its attacks


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya can't deal with Sasuke's offense, especially considering that he is extremely trigger happy when it comes to MS.
> Susano'o arrows combined with Amaterasu make short work of Jiraiya, whether is in SM or not.



And how exactly does Sasuke deal with Jiraiya's offenses?

Ōdama Rasengan

Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique



You're acting like Jiraiya is just going to stand there and take hits like a bitch. This is IC, Sasuke isn't going to sprout Susanoo or shoot arrows just when he sees Jiraiya.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 25, 2015)

UnjustNation said:


> And how exactly does Sasuke deal with Jiraiya's offenses?
> 
> Ōdama Rasengan
> 
> ...



He can dodge / tank everything on that list with the exception of frog song. 
And Sasuke is the faster fighter who can access his end game arsenal alot quicker than Jiraiya can access his. Meaning Sasuke will put the pressure on Jiraiya, not the other way around.

It is very likely that this fight ends before Jiraiya can whip out frog song in most cases. And it is very generous to assume that Jiraiya can actually achieve sm against Sasuke. Sasuke is a very agressive fighter.


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## Duhul10 (Dec 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He can dodge / tank everything on that list with the exception of frog song.
> And Sasuke is the faster fighter who can access his end game arsenal alot quicker than Jiraiya can access his. Meaning Sasuke will put the pressure on Jiraiya, not the other way around.
> 
> It is very likely that this fight ends before Jiraiya can whip out frog song in most cases. And it is very generous to assume that Jiraiya can actually achieve sm against Sasuke. Sasuke is a very agressive fighter.



He can't avoid anything listed there But he can tank most of them because of Susanoo.
Jiraiya is actually faster while in Sage mode
Jiraiya only has to use frog call, imobilizing Sasuke, then he can just sink Both him and His susanoo with yomi Numa.


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## Duhul10 (Dec 25, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Sasuke wins mid diff



It is actually The other way Around more times than not


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## Bonly (Dec 25, 2015)

Depends on how Sasuke fights imo, if he spams the MS jutsu right off the bat then chances are Jiraiya is gonna lose more times then not but if Jiraiya manages to get away and keep some distance between him and Sasuke and use the location to his advantage then he should be able to reach Sage Mode and if he does that he should be able to overwhelm Sasuke and beat him more times then not


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## Icegaze (Dec 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya can't deal with Sasuke's offense, especially considering that he is extremely trigger happy when it comes to MS.
> Susano'o arrows combined with Amaterasu make short work of Jiraiya, whether is in SM or not.
> 
> 
> ...



True true 
My bad forgot mouton used didn't require jutsu and Danzo said he had no time to use seals against the arrows 
Jiriaya dies if he doesn't start in SM


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## Canute87 (Dec 25, 2015)

Well jiraiya isn't going to fuck around with an uchiha user.

As long as this is pre Susano-0 jiraiya i.e SM Jiraiya stands a chance with decent tactics.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> True true
> My bad forgot mouton used didn't require jutsu and Danzo said he had no time to use seals against the arrows
> Jiriaya dies if he doesn't start in SM



 Yeah, Danzo only performed seals when Sasuke wasn't prepping Susano'o Arrow. 

 SM Jiraiya could preempt Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow, but Sasuke's Sharingan enables him to read Jiraiya's movements and accurately predict his position before launching the Arrow. Unless Jiraiya has some V2 Raikage speed, he can't move outside of Sasuke's LoS just to dodge it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> He can't avoid anything listed there



Wtf man.

You should post a proper reply if you want to be taken seriously.


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## $Kakashi$ (Dec 25, 2015)

Jiraiya uses Chō Ōdama Rasengan and crushes Sasuke's Susanoo


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 25, 2015)

$Kakashi$ said:


> Jiraiya uses Chō Ōdama Rasengan and crushes Sasuke's Susanoo



 Jiraiya gets tagged by Susano'o if he even attempts to do that.


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## ~M~ (Dec 25, 2015)

This isn't ems sauce he's not going to blitz Jiraiya who surely battled many sharringan before


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 25, 2015)

~M~ said:


> This isn't ems sauce he's not going to blitz Jiraiya who surely battled many sharringan before



 There were only a select few who awakened the Sharingan during his generation. The likelihood of him fighting multiple Sharingan users is very slim.


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## ~M~ (Dec 25, 2015)

He knew of something even rarer than ms, rinnegan


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## Saru (Dec 26, 2015)

I would give this to Sasuke more often than not due to Jiraiya not starting in SM. I don't see his summons being able to pressure Sasuke sufficiently for him to enter SM when can literally OHKO all of his summons with ease. 

Sasuke wins 9/10 times.

Let Jiraiya start out in SM and the result is very different IMO.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 26, 2015)

~M~ said:


> He knew of something even rarer than ms, rinnegan



[414]

 He was only aware of it through stories that people would always tell. He never once had first-hand experience dealing with the Rinnegan as implied in the scan I presented. 

 Him being aware of the Rinnegan does not equate to Jiraiya suddenly having experience in dealing with Sharingan users because again, in his generation, only a select few possessed the Sharingan, so the likelihood of him even fighting one was very slim.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 26, 2015)

25 meters is small but if jiraiya retreats, get into SM and pull of frog song he wins, that's his only hope. If Jiraiya cant run away he loses.

 Doton: Yomi Numa - Sasuke sees it before it happens. he can use chidori current or jump and use fire style to solidify it
Ōdama Rasengan - gets tanks
Senpō: Goemon - sasuke jumps
Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique - split in half by susanoo sword
Gamayudan - countered with fire style
Frog Song

I'll give this to Jiraiya more times than not just because hes at a huge advantage fighting in Amegakure. Its the perfect place for jiraiya to successfully use and hit all his jutsu.


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 26, 2015)

Lord Aizen said:


> Doton: Yomi Numa - Sasuke sees it before it happens. he can use chidori current or jump and use fire style to solidify it


Sasuke has never used lightning style within Susanoo till this point in the manga. This is IC.
Unless your assuming Jiraiya is going to waste YN on Sasuke without his Susanoo armoring him, then your just . He has to deactivate Susanoo first and them use Raiton on YN like . Then Jiraiya can simply take him down with .
Unless you can show me a panel where pre EMS Sasuke is using Raiton while still being protected by Susanoo, it's all just speculation.
I'm not sure if fire can solidify mud, can you show me an example where this happens.



Lord Aizen said:


> Ōdama Rasengan - gets tanks


Chōōdama Rasengan will obliterate Susanoo. Sasuke can't tank something that can easily carve away an entire mountain.



Lord Aizen said:


> Senpō: Goemon - sasuke jumps


Sasuke has to land back on the ground anyway. Preta Path isn't here to absorb the boiling oil and . Sasuke will be boiled alive the instant he touches the ground. The jutsu covers a , Sasuke isn't surviving this with or without Susanoo.



Lord Aizen said:


> Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique - split in half by susanoo sword


LMAO No, Kuchiyose is a space–time technique, it happens in an instant. There is no way Sasuke can see it coming, let alone react fast enough to strike it. If it can put Kurama on its ass then it can certainly put Sasuke's weak ass, vastly smaller & inferior Susanoo out of commission. And also since when does Sasuke's Susanoo have a sword?



Lord Aizen said:


> Gamayudan - countered with fire style


Gamayudan is oil spit out from Jiraiya's mouth, using fire style to counter it is the last thing Sasuke will want to do. 

The fact is once Jiraiya enters Sage mode, Sasuke is basically screwed. 
Jiraiya is way faster and stronger than Sasuke in this state and can use it for an infinite period of time. I mean lets not kid ourselves here, Jiraiya just plain destoys Sasuke the same way any of the five Kage would.


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He can dodge / tank everything on that list with the exception of frog song.
> .



Yeah keep dreaming.


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## LostSelf (Dec 26, 2015)

Sasuke's biggest threat to Jiraiya here is Amaterasu, and with Sage Mode, Jiraiya is sensing it before Ama is even used, and still have enough time to mount a defense, clones, etc.

Susano'o can be counteres with Yomi Numa, and Sasuke is likely to be overwhelmed by Jiraiya's big AoE attacks sooner or later, or he just stalls until he finishes Frog Song.


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## ~M~ (Dec 26, 2015)

Barring end of series sauce no ms user is going to be a threat outside of ama when he's in sage mode. Ama is the series equivilant of Lille Barro almost


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## Bringer (Dec 26, 2015)

Sasuke's only hope is Amaterasu, and Jiraiya has full knowledge. Furthermore Amaterasu causes a change of pressure in the air, so he'll know when it's coming(as if bleeding eyes isn't enough of a warning sign) 

Susanoo is countered with dark swamp. 

Sasuke has no solid counter against food cart destroyer. 

If Jiraiya brings out a boss summon I have no doubt he can enter Sage Mode, but honestly if he plays his cards right I think he can take it base with mid-high difficulty.


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## Ghoztly (Dec 26, 2015)

Did you guys even see MS Sasuke fight at all?

He literally did not give a darn about spamming MS as if he had the EMS already, his state of mind at that point was very much psychotic, he spammed amaterasu and susanoo like they didn't even phase him. If he starts this with full vision Jiraiya is fucked.


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## Cormag (Dec 26, 2015)

jiraiya, as should be obvious.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 26, 2015)

> Did you guys even see MS Sasuke fight at all?
> 
> He literally did not give a darn about spamming MS as if he had the EMS already, his state of mind at that point was very much psychotic, he spammed amaterasu and susanoo like they didn't even phase him. If he starts this with full vision Jiraiya is fucked.


Nah, he ran at a Raikage covered in lightning that just punched through a 5 foot concrete ceiling backed up by bodyguards with a katana twice, and a hand chidori... before using Amaterasu against him. 

Didn't use it on Mei.

Only used Enton against Gaara, to defend himself. 

Exchanged katana with Bee until he got disarmed and fenced across the ground, this is after Suigetsu got disarmed and Jugo got knocked out by dude. Then he ran at him with Chidori katana, got countered, stabbed 6 times without a reaction. Got healed, then he used Genjutsu, then he got his chest blown off, then he got healed a second time from mortal wounds, and then he used Amaterasu after Killer Bee fired a bijuudama nearly obliterating Suigetsu and was in Bijuu Mode in front of him.

Amaterasu is used when his Katana, Chidori and Genjutsu do not succeed against Jiraiya. By that point, Jiraiya has already buried him with Yomi Numa (which Sasuke has no way of getting out of) or is hiding in a water toad undetectable while prepping Sage Mode & Frog Song, comes out, senses his position, and puts him in it.


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## Rocky (Dec 26, 2015)

Your argument seems like a double standard. Jiraiya didn't prepare Sage Mode until he knew he was fighting the Rinnegan, and he didn't use Yomi Numa until much later after all of his Sage techniques failed. Sooooo...neither SM or Yomi Numa will be used.


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## Bringer (Dec 26, 2015)

Jiraiya has full knowledge though. He knows he can't breach Susanoo so his only other options would be to sink Sasuke in dark swamp, use food cart destroyer, or go into Sage Mode to give his Rasengan more firepower. So no matter what as soon as Susanoo comes out those come out, because Jiraiya knows all his other techniques won't have any effect.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Your argument seems like a double standard. Jiraiya didn't prepare Sage Mode until he knew he was fighting the Rinnegan, and he didn't use Yomi Numa until much later after all of his Sage techniques failed. Sooooo...neither SM or Yomi Numa will be used.


Full knowledge here. He knows Sasuke has MS Genjutsu, Susano, Amaterasu etc. You're implying he won't use Yomi Numa or try to enter Sage Mode with this knowledge?

He entered it when facing a relatively weak path, and used Yomi Numa on a weaker summon then what he was facing against Animal Path.


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## Rocky (Dec 26, 2015)

It's a judgement call. He used Sage Mode on Animal Path, but he thought Animal Path was Nagato, who had mastery of all five nature transformations & the eyes of a literal god in the Narutoverse. Does he see Sasuke as _that_ much of a threat? Who knows.


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## Itachі (Dec 26, 2015)

I think he'd see Sasuke as a very valid threat, given that Sasuke took out Orochimaru who Jiraiya regarded quite highly.


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## Rocky (Dec 26, 2015)

He probably regarded the leader of the Akatsuki highly too, but he didn't prepare Sage Mode before hand...


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## Mithos (Dec 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He probably regarded the leader of the Akatsuki highly too, but he didn't prepare Sage Mode before hand...



I think this suggests how powerful Jiraiya is in base. We've never seen him go all out without SM (and we only really saw him fight when he was drugged or in short skirmishes), so I think he gets underestimated and a lot of people here assume he needs SM when he likely wouldn't. 

I don't know if he would immediately resort to SM in a full knowledge scenario, but I don't think he needs to in order to survive. Even in base he has techniques that can circumvent Susano'o, and he can counter Amaterasu with clones, summons, and blocking line of sight using ninjutsu (which he has done canonically).


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 26, 2015)

Jiraiya implied that there was a possibility of him dying. Him not even making the preparations for Sage Mode ahead of time was rather stupid of him.

 He very well knew that he needed Sage Mode and that was implied when he used a highly unusual tactic to counter his Rinnegan and that was fighting as aggressively as he could as opposed to actually analyzing his opponent's abilities.


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## Rocky (Dec 26, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> We've never seen him go all out without SM (and we only really saw him fight when he was drugged or in short skirmishes), so I think he gets underestimated and a lot of people here assume he needs SM when he likely wouldn't.



I'm gonna go ahead and say that Pain was an "all out" type of fight for Jiraiya. Most characters don't get multi-chapter battles like he did...



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Even in base he has techniques that can circumvent Susano'o



He has _maybe_ one, which can in turn be checked by Chidori Nagashi. 



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> He can counter Amaterasu with clones, summons, and blocking line of sight using ninjutsu (which he has done canonically).



Clones & summons do not "counter" Amaterasu. They'd be destroyed by it if Sasuke used it on them instead of Jiraiya, which he doesn't actually have to do unless the Gama Toads are too annoying. Blocking line of sight is an option with sensing like Nagato, but Jiraiya can't do that in base.


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## Mithos (Dec 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm gonna go ahead and say that Pain was an "all out" type of fight for Jiraiya. Most characters don't get multi-chapter battles like he did...



I said without SM. He resorted to SM really quickly, based off his misgivings about his opponent. I don't think he needed SM to defeat Animal Path, and if he had known that the path could only use summonings, I doubt he would have decided to use SM before other paths arrived. 



> He has _maybe_ one, which can in turn be checked by Chidori Nagashi.



I feel like his hair techniques could as well. I think Jiraiya could sneak his hair under Susano'o and yank Sasuke out. 

And what about Toad Flame Bombs? The fire covers such an insane AoE that it's possible the flames would reach under Susano'o, especially if oil lands beneath Sasuke. 



> Clones & summons do not "counter" Amaterasu. They'd be destroyed by it if Sasuke used it on them instead of Jiraiya, which he doesn't actually have to do unless the Gama Toads are too annoying. Blocking line of sight is an option with sensing like Nagato, but Jiraiya can't do that in base.



If Sasuke is constantly using MS against clones, he's going to exhaust his stamina and hurt his eyes. Then Jiraiya will likely find an opening during the pain and win. 

Blocking LoS is an option even without sensing, so long as Jiraiya actively prevents Sasuke from getting close to him. And since Jiraiya has full knowledge, he can work to prevent being in a postion where he is within LoS and Ameterasu's range.

Maybe "counter" was the wrong word. They can "prevent" it from hitting him.


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## Rocky (Dec 26, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> I said without SM.



Oh, sorry, I must have misread.



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> I feel like his hair techniques could as well. I think Jiraiya could sneak his hair under Susano'o and yank Sasuke out. And what about Toad Flame Bombs? The fire covers such an insane AoE that it's possible the flames would reach under Susano'o, especially if oil lands beneath Sasuke.



What do you mean "reach under Susanoo"? There's no opening to reach under. 



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> If Sasuke is constantly using MS against clones, he's going to exhaust his stamina and hurt his eyes. Then Jiraiya will likely find an opening during the pain and win.



I don't know why he'd be "constantly using MS against clones," so that specific aspect shouldn't be much of a problem here. 



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Blocking LoS is an option even without sensing, so long as Jiraiya actively prevents Sasuke from getting close to him. And since Jiraiya has full knowledge, he can work to prevent being in a postion where he is within LoS and Ameterasu's range.



How ambiguous. "Prevent Sasuke from getting close to him" & "work to prevent being in a position where he is within LoS and Ameterasu's range" are vague-as-shit arguments. _How_ does he do that effectively? Why can't Sasuke work to _put him in a position to be hit?_

I've never seen any character stay out of sight for an entire fight. It just isn't happening. Jiraiya's not fast enough to do that.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nah, he ran at a Raikage covered in lightning that just punched through a 5 foot concrete ceiling backed up by bodyguards with a katana twice, and a hand chidori... before using Amaterasu against him.
> 
> Didn't use it on Mei.
> 
> ...



any proof chidori current can't undo YN with no actual feats of doing anything 

Also note against Danzo sasuke used susanoo tjen Amaterasu before any katana exchange 

Ur argument just fell on its face


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 27, 2015)

> any proof chidori current can't undo YN with no actual feats of doing anything


Undo it after he's 100m below the surface?

Uh...not sure what lightning would do other than shocking himself to death in the liquid swamp. 


> Also note against Danzo sasuke used susanoo tjen Amaterasu before any katana exchange


He was bloodlusted. MS Sasuke fighting Danzo would look much different than MS Sasuke fighting Jiraiya. 



> Ur argument just fell on its face


So you have one example of Sasuke starting with Susano against a man he hated more than anyone... gotcha. 

That's called BL mindset.

You know, the kind of mindset that would allocate him putting a Chidori Spear through Karin, someone he's known for years, to land a death blow on the asshole. 

He has IC mindset here, and I have 2+ examples of MS Sasuke starting with his Katana on high levels.


----------



## ~M~ (Dec 27, 2015)

I know it's a>b>c logic but I'm convinced Jiraya > prime itachi if he reaches SM so sauce stands no chance frankly. Ms sauce is mid(low) kage and sanin are high kage


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Undo it after he's 100m below the surface?
> 
> Uh...not sure what lightning would do other than shocking himself to death in the liquid swamp.
> He was bloodlusted. MS Sasuke fighting Danzo would look much different than MS Sasuke fighting Jiraiya.
> ...



Scan of someone being 100m below the surface due to YN. The jutsu isn't instant . Not like he gonna sink 100m in before he can simply channel lightning 

That's fan fic right there

 

Sasuke was simply testing out his new abilities . It had nothing to do with being BL or not . He wasn't BL against Mei in fact he was exhausted yet still opted for susanoo off the bat 

U picking and choosing a situation where u feel jiriaya might survive is all .  Nothing at all stops him from bum rushing with susanoo

The MS sasuke after kage summit was well into testing his abilities unnecessarily . He will do the same here 

Sasuke simply did not use it off the bat against team raikage because he needed to be on the brink to unlock his new abilities which he knew . Hence the suigetsu why are u interfering statement 

Example for u . A was not BL against minato yet off the bat uses his max speed . He is BL to the core against team taka yet starts in V1

Characters can fight how the author chooses . Any jutsu can be used on a whim if it's easy to pull off


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## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)

*@Icegaze*

Quick question? What is a lightning stream going to do to YN? I mean think about it for a minute... Sasuke is in the swamp with Susanoo active, he channels lightning into the swamp. What happens? Does the swamp magically disappear? Does gravity stop working and he stops sinking? Does the swamp turn back to earth and now Sasuke's Susanoo is trapped in the ground? I don't understand this argument, it has no basis besides Raiton>Doton.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Icegaze*
> 
> Quick question? What is a lightning stream going to do to YN? I mean think about it for a minute... Sasuke is in the swamp with Susanoo active, he channels lightning into the swamp. What happens? Does the swamp magically disappear? Does gravity stop working and he stops sinking? Does the swamp turn back to earth and now Sasuke's Susanoo is trapped in the ground? I don't understand this argument, it has no basis besides Raiton>Doton.



Quick question what has YN done in the manga to suggest it can take out Ms sasuke 

The swamp should turn back to normal . Ever tried to heat up mud ?

Again what shocks me is the magical assumption that sasuke starts of submerged . The thing took 2 panels and animal path pushing human path in to sink half of human path body . This was jiriaya in SM 

Amaterasu heat could turn a cave which was alive back to normal 

No reason lighting can't be used to deactivate the swamp which in 700 chapters amounted to doing nothing other than impeding a fodder snake movement


----------



## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Quick question what has YN done in the manga to suggest it can take out Ms sasuke



Is this a trick question? 



> The swamp should turn back to normal . Ever tried to heat up mud ?



Why would I heat up mud 

What do you mean by "normal"? Like does the swamp become dirt, solid ground? 



> Again what shocks me is the magical assumption that sasuke starts of submerged . The thing took 2 panels and animal path pushing human path in to sink half of human path body . This was jiriaya in SM



Because Jiraiya was using a ceiling as a medium for the technique instead of an actual ground. Orochimaru's snakes were submerged quickly. Are you really saying that Sage Mode enhanced YN sinks enemies slower than drugged Jiraiya? 



> Amaterasu heat could turn a cave which was alive back to normal



Jiraiya's swamp isn't alive, so this is not a good comparison. 



> No reason lighting can't be used to deactivate the swamp which in 700 chapters amounted to doing nothing other than impeding a fodder snake movement



No reason why winking can't be used to deactivate the swamp in which 700 chapters amounted to doing nothing other than impeding a fodder snake movement. 

No reason why saying "Mumbo Jumbo" can't be used to deactivate the swamp in which 700 chapters amounted to doing nothing other than impeding a fodder snake movement.

You see why this is a bad argument?


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

Normal ground 
Mud which is heated up will turn solid . 

Zero evidence YN does anytbinf 

It has neither the feats or hype


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## Kai (Dec 27, 2015)

Focusing on what happens to the swamp when the two interact doesn't advance either argument since we can't exactly know what will happen

What is important to focus on is the fact that the swamp, by virtue of being Doton, should be weaker than Chidori, which is a Raiton. We can figure that the swamp will be ineffective due to being an elemental inferior, whatever that nullified process may look like to you. 

My guess would be Yomi Numa reverts to conventional mud.


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## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)

*@IceGaze*

Okay. Next question. How fast do you think the swamp sinks things? The way you're describing it you make it sound like the swamp pulls someone in an inch every 10 years. Sasuke's MS Susanoo isn't as tall as Orochimaru's summoned snakes. 

Also a regular raiton flow isn't going to nullify the entire swamp. The swamp Jiraiya made against the snake was a drugged Jiraiya swamp which Jiraiya referred to as small. This is none drugged Jiraiya. The swamp he makes will be bigger. So Sasuke will need a raiton flow to match the size of the swamp. Plus Jiraiya has more chakra than Sasuke so if it becomes a battle of attrition than Sasuke loses. 

"B-But Raiton>>>Dot-"

It took multiple suiton users to counter Madara's katon. The Third Raikage tanked Naruto's wind style FRS with his raiton shroud active. Mei's water style could only stalemate Madara's katon. Quality>>>Quantity even with an elemental disadvantage.

*@Kai*

Conventional mud or not, it is still meters deep, and gravity still exists. Sasuke is still sinking by that logic.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

As fast as it did in the manga against an actual named character 
Not fast enough for sasuke to be unable to do anything 

Half of animal path body is also much shorter he didn't sink all that quick . Using the ceiling thing as an excuse is just that an excuse 

Quite obviously this is a manga, what works against fodder doesn't necessarily against named character 

Sakura punched a fodder centipede and killed it in 1 hit 

Yet 2 punches and fodder zetsu is still alive . The more relevant the character the less likely jutsu are to work 

Again nullifying a portion of it would nullify the entire jutsu . Samehada merely touched a portion of itachi Katon jutsu yet the jutsu was ineffective 

Same thing here . Flowing his chakra through a swamp which has no reasons to be lake size would be more than enough to nullify it 

Then again pretty sure YN is slower than Amaterasu . Hard to use Yn when u burning alive 

Amaterasu could turn back to normal a jutsu superior to YN in every aspect . Should lightning fail sasuke uses Amaterasu on the swamp 


Again never seen this swamp be a threat to any named character so I don't get the hype


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 27, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Conventional mud or not, it is still meters deep, and gravity still exists. Sasuke is still sinking by that logic.



Sorry to inform you but characters can stand on water in this manga. 
They can stand on conventional mud too. 

Chakra to the feet son.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

Gotta agree with Grimm 
Unlikely a jutsu which has never been hyped would amount to much here 

It's a jutsu used to take out fodder


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## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sorry to inform you but characters can stand on water in this manga.
> They can stand on conventional mud too.
> 
> Chakra to the feet son.



I agree. After it turns to conventional mud Sasuke can walk on it. 

Too bad by the time he makes the raiton flow he and Susanoo will more or less be submerged. You can't walk on water(or mud) if your feet is already inside the water(or mud). Maybe if he's lucky his hands won't be submerged(and that's being generous) and he can hand stand out of the mud...


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

Odd don't remember human  path sinking fast 

What u forget bringer of darkness is if the floor suddenly gives way in the case of YN. The heavier object would sink quicker 

In the same way a buffalo is going to sink quicker in quick sand than a lizard despite the buffalo being so much bigger 

If YN had a suction to it then yes sasuke would sink before he can do that 

Sadly that isn't the case . Sasuke would be able to use lightning flow or Amaterasu long before he is submerged 

Then again after he is who says that kills him ??

Who says the YN doesn't return to normal ground after the jutsu is complete


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## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)

Odd because the snakes sunk fast. 

You're literally saying drugged Jiraiya YN>>>Sage mode Jiraya YN

Jiraiya used a ceiling as a medium so he couldn't be large scale, and furthermore he didn't want to engulf Human Path, he only wanted to immobilize Human Path because he was moments away from being able to use Frog Song. 

Using your analogy, Susanoo is a buffalo. It's giant and will work against Sasuke sinking him even faster. 

IceGaze the ground beneath him literally turns into mud. Let's say it takes Sasuke 3 seconds to use Raiton flow... In those 3 seconds Susanoo will probably be neck deep and still sinking.

If it returns to normal ground, then Sasuke is trapped underground because the jutsu will turn normal around him because he's still submerged after the raiton flow.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 27, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I agree. After it turns to conventional mud Sasuke can walk on it.
> 
> Too bad by the time he makes the raiton flow he and Susanoo will more or less be submerged. You can't walk on water(or mud) if your feet is already inside the water(or mud). Maybe if he's lucky his hands won't be submerged(and that's being generous) and he can hand stand out of the mud...


I don't see why he can't just jump out of the swap if he activates nagashi, and then he can walk on it.

And if Sasuke sees a big pond of chakra forming under his feet(which the sharingan will allow him to), he can simply release chakra from his feet and stand on it and not sink in the first place.

There is a reason why Jiraiya used Yomi numa against Pain in conjunction with other techniques to conceal it. It is a pretty straightforward technique and easy to avoid normally.


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## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)

Hey now, you said "conventional mud" Sasuke can't step on Swamp of The Underworld until he turns it into regular mud with raiton. Also Susanoo(or alternatively just Sasuke) is going to AT THE VERY LEAST be sunken a few feet before raiton flow comes out... And again that's assuming raiton flow can be used on the same scale as swamp of underworld. That would take a lot of chakra for him to cover the whole swamp in raiton to nullify it.

Anyway I dug up this old relic. 



I completely agree with this post and all its points.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 27, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Hey now, you said "conventional mud" Sasuke can't step on Swamp of The Underworld until he turns it into regular mud with raiton.
> 
> Anyway I dug up this old relic.
> 
> ...



Sasuke can chakra walk on Yomi Numa. Yomi Numa's surface isn't like a glue. However if he gets caught when he isn't chakra walking he gets stuck but he can use nagashi to break free.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yomi Numa's surface isn't like a glue.



That's kind of what being _adhesive_ means.


----------



## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)




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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 27, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


>



I think Human realm didn't opt to use chakra until his feet and hands touched the ceilling and it was too late once they did. 
And he didn't see it because it was used before the engagement and paths had their hands ful.
Thats what I meant in my previous post.

If Jiraiya performs the seals in front of Sasuke, Sasuke will know that Jiraiya will target him with a doton and once the chakra forms under his feet he should be able to use chakra to the feet if he reacts fast enough. 




FlamingRain said:


> That's kind of what being _adhesive_ means.


Chakra walking would apply to the swamps surface. It would be a problem once you go in it.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Odd because the snakes sunk fast.
> 
> You're literally saying drugged Jiraiya YN>>>Sage mode Jiraya YN
> 
> ...



Nope ur being dense 

Am simply saying sinking a fodder snake is just that 
Sinking a fodder snake 

That has nothin to do with sinking named characters . Scans of jiriaya implying he couldn't sink human path because he used the ceiling as a medium 

Nagashi will work perfectly . It's raiton all around sasuke body which means every part of his body that touches the mud will deactivate the tech 

Then he waltz out 

YN only got NF hype 

It's crazy how u guys think 

Amaterasu with the feats , DB hype , manga hype on more than one occasion somehow can be prevented with clones and smoke bombs despite jiriaya lacking all speed feats required 

Yet YN neither hyped or even useful in the manga somehow becomes impossible for sasuke to evade all together or counter 

Seriously 

 

Wonder what happened to summoning under ur feet . But hey my bad for pointing out the obvious


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## FlamingRain (Dec 27, 2015)

They don't have to be beneath the surface before they're affected.

If the mud is adhesive and infused with Jiraiya's own Chakra it should be a problem as soon as they step on it, because there's consistently been some measure of displacement at the surface when ninja are standing or walking on water. They're floating at the very top of the water, not hovering just over it.


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## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think Human realm didn't opt to use chakra until his feet and hands touched the ceilling and it was too late once they did.



Well I think Human realm did, and it just didn't work because you can't use chakra to walk on Swamp of Underworld which isn't ordinary mud. 




Icegaze said:


> Nope ur being dense



"People who don't agree with me are dense"



> Am simply saying sinking a fodder snake is just that
> Sinking a fodder snake



This is not an argument. 



> That has nothin to do with sinking named characters . Scans of jiriaya implying he couldn't sink human path because he used the ceiling as a medium



Human Path is a character who he sunk. He just didn't sink him all the way. 

We already know he can sink things bigger than human path... So either he chose to only sink part of Human Path, or the technique being used on a ceiling effected the scale. Those are the only two logical conclusions. Only an idiot would think Jiraiya can't match the scale of part 1 drugged Jiraiya. 

Also your scans thing is annoying. Don't ask for scans you know don't exist. 

 Scans that Sasuke doesn't have a cancer that will kill him in five seconds after this hypothetical battle begins? 


> Nagashi will work perfectly . It's raiton all around sasuke body which means every part of his body that touches the mud will deactivate the tech




Again,  I agree that Raiton will turn the 100 meter deep adhesive, chakra-infused mud into regular mud... But you can still sink in 100 meters of mud. Sasuke's raiton flow is not coming out before he's waist deep. 

I don't think the swamp would turn back to regular land. We can agree to disagree on that, but that's like saying earth flow would dry Kisame's lake or something.



> YN only got NF hype
> 
> It's crazy how u guys think
> 
> ...



So you're argument is "Swamp of Underworld isn't cool enough to do that"


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

My argument is it hasn't done anything in the manga worth mentioning

There is nothing like earth flow but try harder . Ur almost there 

 

I guess Sakura punch which 1 shotted a centipede can now kill anyone she hits . You know on account of it killing the centipede right 

As if 

Anyone could use any jutsu to troll a fodder snake it doesn't suddenly mean that jutsu would be doing anything in a fight 

The Sakura example as stated above


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## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)

Sakura hurt Kaguya with a punch 

She can probably kill anyone with a punch :/

There is a flow for every element nature. What Asuma does with his trench knives is wind flow. What Atsui did with his sword if fire flow. Why would earth and water not have one? 

Again, saying it hasn't done anything worth mentioning is not an argument. We know what it does already.


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## Rocky (Dec 27, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Sakura hurt Kaguya with a punch
> 
> She can probably kill anyone with a punch :/



No, she cannot. Sasuke hurt Jesusdara with a Katana that bounced off of the armor on Raikage's neck.


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## Bringer (Dec 27, 2015)

Are you saying Raikage is more durable than Jesusdara


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## FlamingRain (Dec 27, 2015)

That version of Sasuke would do the same thing to Raikage.


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## Rocky (Dec 27, 2015)

That version of Sasuke and the Sasuke that fought Raikage have the same exact sword.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Sakura hurt Kaguya with a punch
> 
> She can probably kill anyone with a punch :/
> 
> ...



Not the same Sakura am talking about but yes that Sakura would kill dam near everyone with a punch 

Or do u debate that fact ?

Scans of earth flow 

We have seen mizu bun shin as well as other clone based on elements it however doesn't mean there is somethin such as a fire clone 

If so show me 

This doton flow show me . Baseless claim otherwise . Kishi never claimed there is a flow for every element 

Some elements do some specific things . The only thing earth flow as u claim can do is what onoki does weigh a person down or make them lighter on contact. 

This earth flow or any other in kishi Manga would not do anything in this situation 

Regardless 

Scans is how people argue

Or I could just claim Hidan can use MS


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That version of Sasuke and the Sasuke that fought Raikage have the same exact sword.



They don't have the same power though, and it's not like the sword broke on Raikage's Raiton armor.


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## Rocky (Dec 27, 2015)

Sasuke didn't actually swing into Madara. He just swapped places with the blade and Madara ran into it. If A ran into the sword, I'm not sure why it wouldn't just go flying off of him (or shatter).


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## Veracity (Dec 27, 2015)

Wouldn't that mean that Madara just flies that fast ...


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## Rocky (Dec 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Wouldn't that mean that Madara just flies that fast ...



If somebody swings a sword sharp enough to cut metal into my neck and it goes flying, then a lesser blade would go flying if I sprinted into it. If it was held in place, it would shatter. It wouldn't pierce me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 27, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Well I think Human realm did, and it just didn't work because you can't use chakra to walk on Swamp of Underworld which isn't ordinary mud.



I don't think so. Because there is no need for him to preemptively use chakra walking before he comes in contact with the surface. 

Also he was blinded and distracted, it is very likely that he fell for it simply because the jutsu was used beforehand and he didn't expect it to be there.

You can't just assume that someone who sees it coming will fall for it in different circumstances.

I am not saying that Jiraiya can never land it, but Sasuke has nagashi to pretty much tear through the swamp even if he does.
I just don't see Yomi Numa  being much of a factor here.



Likes boss said:


> Wouldn't that mean that Madara just flies that fast ...



It just means that Madara isn't as durable as A.


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## Dr. White (Dec 27, 2015)

lmao didn't a weaker version of that madara survive Night Gai? Sauce serves Ei as crisped quiche.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 27, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> lmao didn't a weaker version of that madara survive Night Gai? Sauce serves Ei as crisped quiche.



Through regen, not durability.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> My argument is it hasn't done anything in the manga worth mentioning
> 
> There is nothing like earth flow but try harder . Ur almost there
> 
> ...


Yomi Numa GGs Sasuke if it lands. He doesn't have 1% of the physical strength of that fodder snake and the fodder snake couldn't escape an incomplete weakened swamp with an innate burrowing ability. 

Chidori Stream results in him shocking himself to death via a liquid swamp increasing the lethal nature of the technique.


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## Dr. White (Dec 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Through regen, not durability.



What? I'm pretty sure it incinerated almost a quarter of his torso along with his arm. He wasn't actively regenerating, meaning he survived the hit. Raikage would be turned into a bunch of molecules if hit with Night Dai.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yomi Numa GGs Sasuke if it lands. He doesn't have 1% of the physical strength of that fodder snake and the fodder snake couldn't escape an incomplete weakened swamp.
> 
> Chidori Stream results in him shocking himself to death via a liquid swamp increasing the lethal nature of the technique.



like how he shocked himself to death when he used chidori nagashi in the manga

or when he used chidori on himself to deactive deidara bomb

the fanfic is strong in u

sadly this fanfic swamp hasn't done anything. u got zero DB or panel evidence

at least I can say ration>doton which was stated in the manga


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 27, 2015)

> like how he shocked himself to death when he used chidori nagashi in the manga


No, he wasn't underwater when he did that. 



> or when he used chidori on himself to deactive deidara bomb


No, he wasn't underwater when he did that. 


> the fanfic is strong in u


No, the logic is weak in you. 



> sadly this fanfic swamp hasn't done anything. u got zero DB or panel evidence


No fanfic, the snake is 100x the size of Sasuke with 100x the muscle definition and innate burrowing (moving through earth) ability, and could not escape a swamp that Jiraiya himself stated was weakened due to his health.

He directly implied the entire snake would've been submerged if healthy. 



> at least I can say ration>doton which was stated in the manga


You're right in one regard, the Chidori would penetrate the swamp with no issue.

Problem being that doesn't help Sasuke here at all.

Raiton > Doton means nothing when he's 100m underneath the swamp. Wouldn't help him if he was on top of the swamp, deflects the swamp back for one second, then he free falls back into it and is drug 100m under instantly. 

The only possible way he avoids death via Yomi Numa is to leap before it's used, summon the hawk in mid-air, and never step on the ground again. And that isn't happening with the knowledge he has.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke didn't actually swing into Madara. He just swapped places with the blade and Madara ran into it.



When was this?


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

QUOTE=DaVizWiz;54950835]No, he wasn't underwater when he did that. [/QUOTE]

jiriaya lacks suiton though . 



> No, he wasn't underwater when he did that.
> No, the logic is weak in you.



 see above 



> No fanfic, the snake is 100x the size of Sasuke with 100x the muscle definition and innate burrowing (moving through earth) ability, and could not escape a swamp that Jiraiya himself stated was weakened due to his health.



and 100X less the legs or the ability to mold chakra. try a lot harder. or the ability to see chakra. 

again try harder 




> He directly implied the entire snake would've been submerged if healthy.



good YN can sink a fodder snake. what named ninja at that level cant down a fodder snake in 1 move. does it mean that that move suddenly cant be countered or is GG to every ninja?



> You're right in one regard, the Chidori would penetrate the swamp with no issue.



good for u



> Problem being that doesn't help Sasuke here at all.



ah I spoke too soon ur back to making mistakes



> Raiton > Doton means nothing when he's 100m underneath the swamp. Wouldn't help him if he was on top of the swamp, deflects the swamp back for one second, then he free falls back into it and is drug 100m under instantly.



sadly no named ninja has been sunk 100m deep. baseless claim. jiriaya hasn't done such



> The only possible way he avoids death via Yomi Numa is to leap before it's used, summon the hawk in mid-air, and never step on the ground again. And that isn't happening with the knowledge he has.


[/QUOTE]

love the fan fic

this uncounterable  swamp best feat is taking out fodder.

odd how this jutsu cant be blocked or negated by sasuke. yet a jutsu hyped for speed in DB and manga several times. with the feats to match can somehow be countered by jiriaya whose best speed feat and reaction feat is what exactly 

oh yh in this fan fic scenario which u created, sasuke wants to rush jiriaya with a sword right. like how he did against Mei, and danzo 

suuure


----------



## Rocky (Dec 27, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> When was this?



[1]


----------



## Veracity (Dec 27, 2015)

Are y'all really reaching this far now ?

He definitely tanked Gais first evening elephant taking only this much damage: 1
Which would obliterate Ay, as well as not being completely obliterated by something much more powerful then a bjuiidama:☻ 1

This was also a weaker version of Madara. EMS madara could already tank Ays blows without taking much damage. Juubidara amped with the god tree is clearly on a different level then ay in literally every aspect. 

He cut through Madara with a combination of enhanced speed, strength, and senjutsu that's all.


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## Itachі (Dec 27, 2015)

I imagine that Raiton flow would render Yomi Numa useless. It destroyed the explosive property of Deidara's bombs so I don't know why it wouldn't negate the swamp-like properties of Yomi Numa. It's not like it's a technique that only penetrates.


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## Dr. White (Dec 27, 2015)

Sasuke stabbing him with the sword was him spatially warping his sword into Madara. There is no momentum with his technique, it isn't telekinesis. This is backed up by Sasuke needing to amy his blade with sage chakra to slice him in half scenes later.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2015)

Itachі said:


> I imagine that Raiton flow would render Yomi Numa useless. It destroyed the explosive property of Deidara's bombs so I don't know why it wouldn't negate the swamp-like properties of Yomi Numa. It's not like it's a technique that only penetrates.



thanks. no reason it shouldn't deactivate the swamp if it could deactivate deidara tech

including the giant C2 dragon when sasuke only touched a portion of it.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> thanks. no reason it shouldn't deactivate the swamp if it could deactivate deidara tech
> 
> including the giant C2 dragon when sasuke only touched a portion of it.



 Are you referring to him piercing it with Chidori Eisou?

 It's not like Deidara infused his Doton (Explosive) Chakra within his C2 Dragon that he actually flew on. That's actually downright retarded, not to mention strange when he summons a C1 bird in which he was able to completely submerge himself within it to catch Sasuke off-guard:

 2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 27, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> What? I'm pretty sure it incinerated almost a quarter of his torso along with his arm. He wasn't actively regenerating, meaning he survived the hit. Raikage would be turned into a bunch of molecules if hit with Night Dai.



Yeah, the part of his body that was directly hit got atomized.
Raikage would probably suffer similar damage, but he would just die because normally you can't survive with half of your body missing unless you are a freak of nature.

Although Raikage is clearly tougher(at least against sharp weapons) based on the fact that he tanked Sasuke's sword while JJ Madz couldn't.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> thanks. no reason it shouldn't deactivate the swamp if it could deactivate deidara tech
> 
> including the giant C2 dragon when sasuke only touched a portion of it.


Are you implying he uses it while Yomi Numa is being manifested below him?

That's a stretch considering he has no knowledge that Jiraiya can do it, what it is, or that it's an earth technique.


----------



## $Kakashi$ (Dec 27, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> Jiraiya gets tagged by Susano'o if he even attempts to do that.



SM Jiraiya should be fast enough to dodge Sasuke's Susano'o


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, the part of his body that was directly hit got atomized.
> Raikage would probably suffer similar damage, but he would just die because normally you can't survive with half of your body missing unless you are a freak of nature.
> 
> Although Raikage is clearly tougher(at least against sharp weapons) based on the fact that he tanked Sasuke's sword while JJ Madz couldn't.



Nah he was clearly inside the humongous AOE of his attack, the attack was only able to injure him that much. Ei would have been vaporized no questions asked.

Ei would be sliced up just like madara was and likely would be susceptible to an S/T weapons plant to boot.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 27, 2015)

$Kakashi$ said:


> SM Jiraiya should be fast enough to dodge Sasuke's Susano'o



 Certainly not fast enough to dodge the Arrow. Even then, considering Susano'o travels much faster than Taka Sasuke does, I wouldn't be surprised if Susano'o could tag SM JIraiya. SM Jiraiya isn't all that fast to be honest.


----------



## Raiken (Dec 27, 2015)

Close fight, hard to decide how this goes. Based on how long this thread as gone on for, average is probably that it is somewhat of an even fight.

Depending on circumstances it could go either way, but with Jiraiya having Full Knowledge, I'd give this to Jiraiya more times than Sasuke.

Jiraiya - Very High Difficulty.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 27, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> Certainly not fast enough to dodge the Arrow. Even then, considering Susano'o travels much faster than Taka Sasuke does, I wouldn't be surprised if Susano'o could tag SM JIraiya. SM Jiraiya isn't all that fast to be honest.


Why can't he?

SM Kabuto did it.

Danzo reacted to an arrow with a jutsu. 

Summit Arc Kakashi reacted to an arrow with a jutsu. 

SM Jiraiya while critically wounded (one arm, no hand seals = virtually no Senjutsu [1]) was avoiding full powered Pain [1] for an extended period  (*Before*) (*After*) in the courtyard, wasn't wounded at any point in it.

I'd imagine that guy could avoid Susano Arrow, when 4/6 of those paths have feats of reacting to & out speeding FRS, a comparable if not superior speed technique to Susano Arrow.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 27, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Doubt it, Sauce just used hax to paste it in Madara. You can't just claim that doesn't happen inthis story lmao.



It doesn't. That's why Sasuke warps in front of Kaguya instead of switching places with the eyeball in her forehead. It's also why Minato & Tobirama don't just teleport their attacks directly into their opponent's mouths.



Dr. White said:


> Obito was only hurt because Sage chakra specifically countered him. He tanked his own Goudama IIRC, and had many other durability feats.



Senjutsu isn't negated, but it isn't super effective or anything. That was what his body takes from a senjutsu Rasengan, which is an astonishing amount.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Why can't he?
> 
> SM Kabuto did it.



 Okay and SM Jiraiya isn't SM Kabuto.



> Danzo reacted to an arrow with a jutsu.



 You mean before Sasuke actually prepared to strike Danzo correct? Danzo couldn't even perform as seal once that Arrow was actually launched. Likewise, Kakashi barely initiated Kamui which is by far, one of the fastest techniques in the entire manga.



> Summit Arc Kakashi reacted to an arrow with a jutsu.



 Kamui is much faster than anything Jiraiya is capable of.



> SM Jiraiya while critically wounded (one arm, no hand seals = virtually no Senjutsu [1]) was avoiding full powered Pain [1] for an extended period  (*Before*) (*After*) in the courtyard, wasn't wounded at any point in it.



 Actually, in all likelihood, he didn't. If that were the case, Kakashi wouldn't have been required to analyze Deva Path's attacks and the fact that Jiraiya was actually tagged by Animal Path suggests that he wasn't even capable of tangoing with all 6 of them in the first place. He even confirmed that fighting 3 Paths alone was too much for him unless he fought them all individually.

 And that After Image you presented is inaccurate as we did see Jiraiya get wounded, by Animal Path's rod that actually disrupted his Chakra.



> I'd imagine that guy could avoid Susano Arrow, when 4/6 of those paths have feats of reacting to & out speeding FRS, a comparable if not superior speed technique to Susano Arrow.



 Susano'o Arrow honestly has far better portrayal in comparison to FRS, speed-wise at least.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 27, 2015)

> jiriaya lacks suiton though .


A swamp is full of water...  

What the fuck 



> and 100X less the legs or the ability to mold chakra. try a lot harder. or the ability to see chakra.
> 
> again try harder


 A snake 100x the size of Sasuke, with 100x the muscle and an innate ability to move through *solid earth* at high speed is less capable of escaping a swamp than pweny little Uchiha Sasuke? 

The ability to mold chakra helps him escape the swamp? 

The ability to see chakra results in him reacting to an instant spawning swamp below his feet which he has no knowledge on? 

Gotcha. 

We're done.

You can address this post, just don't address me again in this thread after that.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 28, 2015)

Jiraiya held his own with no knowledge against a foe a complete tier higher then MS Sasuke. Sure Pain was holding back but I can confidently say Sasuke would have died far quicker then Jiraiya. If Jriaiya gets into SM he wins Mid Difficulty. Also Sasuke is no Itachi he loses his cool and thats when Jiraiya will capitalize.


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## Ghoztly (Dec 28, 2015)

Go reread the battle with SM Kabuto and realize your fucking crazy for thinking Jiraiya is in his tier as far as speed goes.


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## ~M~ (Dec 28, 2015)

Itachi literally did all the work with Kabuto.


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## Ghoztly (Dec 28, 2015)

~M~ said:


> Itachi literally did all the work with Kabuto.




I mean in terms of the arrow and implying Jiraiya is faster than Kabuto.

Not in this goddamn lifetime.


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## Icegaze (Dec 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Are you implying he uses it while Yomi Numa is being manifested below him?
> 
> That's a stretch considering he has no knowledge that Jiraiya can do it, what it is, or that it's an earth technique.



U mean the guy who can tell the nature of a jutsu through the hand seals used 

Yh sasuke would have no idea


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## Icegaze (Dec 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> A swamp is full of water...
> 
> What the fuck
> 
> ...



Kmt look At this cunt 

Since when was functional swamp made out of water 

Scans or shut the fuck up


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## ~M~ (Dec 28, 2015)

Dude swamps are mud which is water and dirt what are swamps where you're from? 

SM Kabuto is faster than Jiraiya but SM Jiraiya is faster than Sauce


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## Icegaze (Dec 28, 2015)

dude applying real world logic to a manga is davizwiz sortta dumb

like when one implies katon in the manga will burn someone insides. never shown or implied therefore cant happen

here chakra based mud is just that chakra based mud. a doton, no suiton in it. 

why one would think someone the mud will conduct the lightning back to sasuke for him to shock himself to death is beyond me

when darui lightning jutsu didn't shock him to death

also If doton can be used in such a manner then the whole ration>doton wouldn't apply which it does


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## Bringer (Dec 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Not the same Sakura am talking about but yes that Sakura would kill dam near everyone with a punch
> 
> Or do u debate that fact ?
> 
> ...



Sometimes common sense can replace the need for scans. Why would there only be fire, wind, and lightning flow but not water or earth flow?  Also why do you space out everything. Also why did you randomly put "regardless".


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## Bringer (Dec 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think so. Because there is no need for him to preemptively use chakra walking before he comes in contact with the surface.
> 
> Also he was blinded and distracted, it is very likely that he fell for it simply because the jutsu was used beforehand and he didn't expect it to be there.
> 
> ...



The ground beneath Sasuke immediately turns into adhesive chakra infused mud. His raiton flow isn't active before it's used, it's coming out after it's used. If he sinks as fast as the snake did, by the time he used raiton flow he'll be waist deep(Again that's being generous)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 28, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Nah he was clearly inside the humongous AOE of his attack, the attack was only able to injure him that much. Ei would have been vaporized no questions asked.


Obviously the direct impact deals more damage than the AOE.

There is a reason why Naruto's YRS left a scar on Madara's belly despite its AOE being big enough to cut down the God Tree.



> Ei would be sliced up just like madara was and likely would be susceptible to an S/T weapons plant to boot.



Well we saw the opposite happen. I also don't see how ST changes anything in regards to the sharpness of a weapon. Madara simply ran into a sword hanging in mid air and got pierced.



BringerOfChaos said:


> The ground beneath Sasuke immediately turns into adhesive chakra infused mud.


If Sasuke uses chakra to the feet before he sinks, then he surely can avoid getting caught by it.
And connsidering that he will see Jiraiya's doton handseals and chakra forming beneath his feet, there is a chance that he can preempt it.



> His raiton flow isn't active before it's used, it's coming out after it's used. If he sinks as fast as the snake did, by the time he used raiton flow he'll be waist deep(Again that's being generous)



I don't see your point. Sasuke can be 100 meters deep and he can escape the swap with chidori nagashi.


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## Bringer (Dec 28, 2015)

Is Sasuke looking at the ground? Also even if he is the technique activates too fast.  He knows a technique is being used from hand seals but he doesn't know which one, and he doesn't even know what element. Also it's still debatable that Human Path wasn't focusing chakra on his feet. Yes he was blind, but he still had a few paths with him, and through them he obviously saw the fire ball coming, and obviously knew a ceiling was above him. 

[506] 

Paraphrasing what I think your argument is(correct me if I'm wrong) "He was waiting for his feet to touch the ceiling before focusing chakra" Why would he wait? Would a ninja not focus chakra in their feet before hand when jumping on a water surface?

edit: Forgot to reply to something. Raiton flow will either turn the swamp into normal mud or back to regular earth. So if Sasuke was 100 meters deep, he'd still be drowning. You can't swim upwards in mud. His only hope is to use it before he's fully submerged.  If it turns into regular earth... Then Sasuke is buried.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 28, 2015)

I always thought Yomi Numa scaled with the opponent it was being used on. Otherwise, I wonder why Jiraiya  only made a man-sized one to sink Human Path, when he could've made a bigger one to sink several paths. At any rate, Sasuke could summon a Hawk or a Snake below himself to escape the swamp, if he really needed to.

Base Jiraiya's only option is to retreat immediately and start prepping Sage Mode, but I'm not sure how far that will get him. Unlike Animal Path, Preta Path and blinded Human Path, MS Sasuke would be able to perceive Jiraiya's Shunshin, cloud of smoke or not, because of his precognition. Therefore escaping the area wouldn't be quite as easy. Plus, Sasuke is faster on his feet, so he could catch up to Jiraiya rather easily if he's running away. Sasuke's summons and fast AOE jutsu also make it difficult for Jiraiya to stall, because his Toads would be preoccupied with boss snakes, and his Bunshin would be killed rather quickly.

But, even if I were to give Jiraiya the benefit of the doubt and assume he could reach Sage Mode .. I'm still not convinced that he can win. Susano'o protects Sasuke from Jiraiya's taijutsu, and the majority of his ninjutsu. Senpō: Rasengan is just about the only thing that would get through Susano'o, but imo Jiraiya isn't fast enough to land one of those without getting hit.

As far as I'm concerned, SM Jiraiya hasn't shown the reactions and movement ability to repeatedly dodge Susano'o arrows. He might do it once or twice, but just barely. Jiraiya's speed didn't seem to be as high as SM Naruto's. 

Plus, there's Amaterasu, which screws Jiraiya over. He does have the Fire Sealing Method, but that takes time, and he'll have sustained pretty severe burns by the time it takes effect. Needle Jizo might be fast enough in Sage Mode to protect him, but only if Jiraiya had anticipated the attack ahead of time.

Finally, Gamarinshou might not even work, because Sasuke could reverse the illusion onto Ma and Pa. Or alternatively he might just break out of it like he did Tsukuyomi, which is probably a more powerful genjutsu anyway.

So, while Jiraiya does give Sasuke difficulty, I think he loses. 

Wasn't MS Sasuke supposed to be on the same level as SM Naruto, who had surpassed Jiraiya?​​


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## Bringer (Dec 28, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I always thought Yomi Numa scaled with the opponent it was being used on. Otherwise, I wonder why Jiraiya  only made a man-sized one to sink Human Path, when he could've made a bigger one to sink several paths. At any rate, Sasuke could summon a Hawk or a Snake below himself to escape the swamp, if he really needed to.



Jiraiya has to use preexisting earth to use the swamp. 



> The more you struggle, the more you sink
> A bottomless swamp from Hell!!
> 
> *By changing the ground into mud and creating a swamp*, the enemy is sunk deep underground...!! The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the enemy's body. It's impossible to recover one's strength and escape from there. The size and depth of the created swamp depend on the user's skill and the amount of chakra used, but if the user is an expert in this technique, it will always be possible to make a fair-sized swamp! When fighting a great number of enemies or having to face gigantic creatures, this is an extremely effective technique.



Against Human Path he had to use the ceiling as a medium. If he could create it without preexisting earth then he could magically make a swamp in the air to fall on top of people. 

Also assuming that you can freely move your limbs in the swamp then yes, Sasuke should be able to summon a giant snake below him to get him out of it if it's big enough(then after jumping to safety he can summon the snake out of the swamp). The hawk ain't doing shit though. One of Pain's paths held and weighed down on Human's Path's hand while he was trapped in the swamp and he didn't slip out. 




> Base Jiraiya's only option is to retreat immediately and start prepping Sage Mode, but I'm not sure how far that will get him. Unlike Animal Path, Preta Path and blinded Human Path, MS Sasuke would be able to perceive Jiraiya's Shunshin, cloud of smoke or not, because of his precognition. Therefore escaping the area wouldn't be quite as easy. Plus, Sasuke is faster on his feet, so he could catch up to Jiraiya rather easily if he's running away. Sasuke's summons and fast AOE jutsu also make it difficult for Jiraiya to stall, because his Toads would be preoccupied with boss snakes, and his Bunshin would be killed rather quickly.



Jiraiya can summon more frogs than Sasuke can summon snakes. Or alternatively he can summon Shima who can then summon the frogs on her own reserves like she did for Naruto. 



> But, even if I were to give Jiraiya the benefit of the doubt and assume he could reach Sage Mode .. I'm still not convinced that he can win. Susano'o protects Sasuke from Jiraiya's taijutsu, and the majority of his ninjutsu. Senpō: Rasengan is just about the only thing that would get through Susano'o, but imo Jiraiya isn't fast enough to land one of those without getting hit.



Yomi Noma



> As far as I'm concerned, SM Jiraiya hasn't shown the reactions and movement ability to repeatedly dodge Susano'o arrows. He might do it once or twice, but just barely. Jiraiya's speed didn't seem to be as high as SM Naruto's.



Danzo intercepted the arrow with wood release. Sage Kabuto avoided it. Kakashi reacted with Kamui(though he couldn't avoid it by movement) I'd say Sage Jiraiya has a good chance to be able to avoid the arrow. Besides Sasuke can't aim properly when Susanoo is being sunk. 



> Plus, there's Amaterasu, which screws Jiraiya over. He does have the Fire Sealing Method, but that takes time, and he'll have sustained pretty severe burns by the time it takes effect. Needle Jizo might be fast enough in Sage Mode to protect him, but only if Jiraiya had anticipated the attack ahead of time.



I actually agree here. Amaterasu can fuck over Jiraiya pretty bad, and he can't avoid it. 



> Finally, Gamarinshou might not even work, because Sasuke could reverse the illusion onto Ma and Pa. Or alternatively he might just break out of it like he did Tsukuyomi, which is probably a more powerful genjutsu anyway.



I was under the impression one of the reasons why Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi is because Itachi let him, just like the only reason Sasuke avoided Amaterasu is because Itachi didn't want to incinerate his brother. 

Also sound based genjutsu works differently, and the effects of it are different from Tsukuyomi. They can't be compared.  



> So, while Jiraiya does give Sasuke difficulty, I think he loses.



I think it's 50/50. 



> Wasn't MS Sasuke supposed to be on the same level as SM Naruto, who had surpassed Jiraiya?



To be fair chapter 631 Sakura was said to be on the same level as Chakra Mode Naruto and EMS Sasuke(Sakura said she caught up in the same chapter, and also the 4th databook says she caught up to them in strength at that point). We both know that Naruto or Sasuke at that point in time would've at worst mid diffed that Sakura. 

While I agree portrayal should always be taken into account, it shouldn't be the sole decider.


----------



## ~M~ (Dec 28, 2015)

Non perfect susanoo would crush under cart destroyer surely, no? It held the nine tails down


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 28, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Sometimes common sense can replace the need for scans. Why would there only be fire, wind, and lightning flow but not water or earth flow?  Also why do you space out everything. Also why did you randomly put "regardless".



Regardless no scans or manga implication of water or earth flow 

Every thought the nature of the element allows it to do things other elements can't do 

Eg: how would u weigh someone down with fire element ??

Why should Earth element be able to do that yet no other element can


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 28, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Is Sasuke looking at the ground? Also even if he is the technique activates too fast.  He knows a technique is being used from hand seals but he doesn't know which one, and he doesn't even know what element. Also it's still debatable that Human Path wasn't focusing chakra on his feet. Yes he was blind, but he still had a few paths with him, and through them he obviously saw the fire ball coming, and obviously knew a ceiling was above him.
> 
> *Minato's praise*
> 
> ...



Yomi Numa was used before the engagement, we didn't even see Jiraiya cast it. I could ask you the same thing, why would he preemptively use chakra walking, as opposed to using it when coming in contact with the surface ?
There is actually no evidence to suggest that the mechanics that allow shinobi to stay on top of the water wouldn't work with Yomi Numa.

Also shinobi can navigate through solid earth : *Minato's praise*
Sasuke can easily swim inside the mud.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 28, 2015)

Are people still using the fucking swamp argument a few days before 2016 like seriously.


----------



## Bringer (Dec 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Regardless no scans or manga implication of water or earth flow
> 
> Every thought the nature of the element allows it to do things other elements can't do
> 
> ...



The weight thing is a technique, not a flow.

Earth and water flow must exist. Remember the paper test? Flowing wind chakra into the paper rips it, fire burns it, earth makes it crumble, lightning makes it crinkle, and water makes it soggy. 





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yomi Numa was used before the engagement, we didn't even see Jiraiya cast it. I could ask you the same thing, why would he preemptively use chakra walking, as opposed to using it when coming in contact with the surface?



Because it makes more sense? Like, if a ninja jumps onto a lake are they going to focus the chakra into their feet midair before they land on the water, or are they going to activate it in the exact moment the soles of their feet touch the water?



> There is actually no evidence to suggest that the mechanics that allow shinobi to stay on top of the water wouldn't work with Yomi Numa.



1. Neither you or I can prove that Human Path wasn't focusing chakra on his feet before hand. My view is just as valid as yours, and your view is just as valid as mine. I personally think my view of Human Path focusing chakra in his feet beforehand makes more sense, but again that's just me. 

2. The databook would have probably mentioned you can walk on it just like it mentioned it for the Starch Syrup Capturing Field. 



> Also shinobi can navigate through solid earth : *Minato's praise*
> Sasuke can easily swim inside the mud.



By the time he reaches the surface Jiraiya is in sage mode  




~M~ said:


> Non perfect susanoo would crush under cart destroyer surely, no? It held the nine tails down



Potentially, yeah. 

*@Donquixote Doflamingo*

It's not like we got any new information on the technique that disapproves the argument


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 28, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Because it makes more sense? Like, if a ninja jumps onto a lake are they going to focus the chakra into their feet midair before they land on the water, or are they going to activate it in the exact moment the soles of their feet touch the water?


But he didn't jump onto the lake 
He was jumping onto the ceilling, it is a solid surface so he didn't have to worry about sinking. He could use chakra after he touched it.




> 1. Neither you or I can prove that Human Path wasn't focusing chakra on his feet before hand. My view is just as valid as yours, and your view is just as valid as mine. I personally think my view of Human Path focusing chakra in his feet beforehand makes more sense, but again that's just me.


The logical explanation is that he wasn't, so thats why his hands and feet sunk in. 



> 2. The databook would have probably mentioned you can walk on it just like it mentioned it for the Starch Syrup Capturing Field.


Databook only mentions its effects after the victim is basically in it : 


> By changing the ground into mud and creating a swamp, the enemy is sunk deep underground...!! The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the enemy's body. It's impossible to recover one's strength and escape from there



Even if the surface is sticky, as long as you use chakra, then you should be able to stand on it or walk on it. It just would be harder than doing it on regular water.



> By the time he reaches the surface Jiraiya is in sage mode


I don't think base Jiraiya has a realistic shot @ standing up to Sasuke more than half a minute if Sasuke is seriously going for the kill anyways. Even less if Sasuke resorts to Amaterasu or Susano'o early on. We've seen his agression against Danzo. SM Jiraiya wouldn't survive that onslaught either.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Are people still using the fucking swamp argument a few days before 2016 like seriously.



Yeah it more akin to the kawarimi argument. 

"Why didn't Itachi dodge Kirin with Kawarimi mang ?"


----------



## ~M~ (Dec 28, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Are people still using the fucking swamp argument a few days before 2016 like seriously.



This is our nindo
Our ninja way 

We are proud warriors of words


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## ~M~ (Dec 28, 2015)

Honestly if Jiraiya could reach sage mode versus Pain, it's pure fanfiction he's blitzed before doing it to Sauce without some limitations. 

Fuck Amaterasu


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 28, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Jiraiya has to use preexisting earth to use the swamp.
> 
> Against Human Path he had to use the ceiling as a medium. If he could create it without preexisting earth then he could magically make a swamp in the air to fall on top of people.



He obviously needs pre-existing earth to create a swamp, but had there been no pre-existing Earth in that tunnel, then he couldn't have used Yomi Numa in the first place. Using the roof as a medium meant that the roof itself was made of earth. So he did make that ceiling into a swamp, its just that it possessed a different consistency to the one he used in Part I, likely because he was using hard earth rather than soil. But there was an entire ceiling's worth of earth, yet only the area around Human Path turned into a swamp.



> Also assuming that you can freely move your limbs in the swamp then yes,



Sasuke would have time to move his arms before he was completely submerged.



> he should be able to summon a giant snake below him to get him out of it if it's big enough(then after jumping to safety he can summon the snake out of the swamp). The hawk ain't doing shit though. One of Pain's paths held and weighed down on Human's Path's hand while he was trapped in the swamp and he didn't slip out.



I'd like to think a Hawk appearing out of nowhere right below him would elevate him upwards, regardless of how strong the swamp's hold is. I think the sudden exertion of force pushing him upwards is greater than Animal Path trying to pull Human Path free. Not that this argument matters though, if you agree a snake could do the same job better



> Jiraiya can summon more frogs than Sasuke can summon snakes. Or alternatively he can summon Shima who can then summon the frogs on her own reserves like she did for Naruto.



True, but then again, even against Pein, Jiraiya relied solely on Gamahiro. He didn't bother summoning anything else. He might change strategy, assuming he realises one toad isn't enough, has the chakra to spare, and hasn't already been hit with an Amaterasu. That's why I said I could give him the benefit of the doubt when it came to reaching Sage Mode, but it's quite a stretch.



> Yomi Noma



Couldn't Sasuke channel raiton through it to mitigate the technique?



> Danzo intercepted the arrow with wood release.



Meh. Danzou just barely reacted to it, and it was by the speed of his Mokuton that he blocked it, which he had no control over. He has Hashirama to thank for that. 



> Sage Kabuto avoided it.



Didn't he blitz Itachi? He seems faster than SM Jiraiya.



> Kakashi reacted with Kamui(though he couldn't avoid it by movement) I'd say Sage Jiraiya has a good chance to be able to avoid the arrow. Besides Sasuke can't aim properly when Susanoo is being sunk.



I do think Jiraiya has a good chance of dodging them for a while, his reactions are probably slightly better than Sharingan Kakashi's, and his movements are maybe Itachi level? Though I'm just estimating, I'm unsure since the extent of Jiraiya's speed was never shown. But I don't think Jiraiya can dance around arrows very easily, he'll be put under considerable pressure, especially if he's already been engulfed in an Amaterasu.



> I was under the impression one of the reasons why Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi is because Itachi let him, just like the only reason Sasuke avoided Amaterasu is because Itachi didn't want to incinerate his brother.



I was never under that impression. I don't think Itachi had any great control over Amaterasu's speed either (it was Sasuke who harnessed that through Enton), so I doubt he optionally used Amaterasu (or Tsukuyomi for that matter) with the intention of his jutsu to fail.



> Also sound based genjutsu works differently, and the effects of it are different from Tsukuyomi. They can't be compared.



Do they? They both seem to do the same things, they just take effect differently. I don't logically see why Sasuke couldn't reverse the effects.



> To be fair chapter 631 Sakura was said to be on the same level as Chakra Mode Naruto and EMS Sasuke(Sakura said she caught up in the same chapter, and also the 4th databook says she caught up to them in strength at that point). We both know that Naruto or Sasuke at that point in time would've at worst mid diffed that Sakura.
> 
> While I agree portrayal should always be taken into account, it shouldn't be the sole decider.



Yeah, but unlike Sakura, I think MS Sasuke has the feats, and not just portrayal, to show that he's noticeably ahead of J-Man.​​


----------



## Bringer (Dec 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But he didn't jump onto the lake
> He was jumping onto the ceilling, it is a solid surface so he didn't have to worry about sinking. He could use chakra after he touched it.



It was an example... If a ninja is going to jump on water, a wall, a ceiling, mud, anything why the fuck would they wait until their feet touches it to focus chakra?





> The logical explanation is that he wasn't, so thats why his hands and feet sunk in.



Or maybe the explanation is that you can't walk on the ensnaring chakra infused swamp. 




> Databook only mentions its effects after the victim is basically in it :



How does this stop it from mentioning that you can walk on it by focusing chakra on your feet? The syrup capturing field went out of it's way to say you can walk on it if you focus chakra on your feet beforehand.




> Even if the surface is sticky, as long as you use chakra, then you should be able to stand on it or walk on it. It just would be harder than doing it on regular water.



This isn't your ordinary sticky surface. 




> I don't think base Jiraiya has a realistic shot @ standing up to Sasuke more than half a minute if Sasuke is seriously going for the kill anyways. Even less if Sasuke resorts to Amaterasu or Susano'o early on. We've seen his agression against Danzo. SM Jiraiya wouldn't survive that onslaught either.



I don't know. Yomi noma can counter Susanoo, Sasuke has no answer to food cart destroyer, Jiraiya has more boss summons than Sasuke, and even if Sasuke does boss summon then Jiraiya could just Yomi noma the boss summons. I agree Sasuke has a shot of winning, but it's going to be a high dif win at best.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 28, 2015)

> Okay and SM Jiraiya isn't SM Kabuto.


They're both Sages...



> You mean before Sasuke actually prepared to strike Danzo correct? Danzo couldn't even perform as seal once that Arrow was actually launched. Likewise, Kakashi barely initiated Kamui which is by far, one of the fastest techniques in the entire manga.


It doesn't matter, they read it's speed and reacted accordingly. 



> Kamui is much faster than anything Jiraiya is capable of.


Susano Arrow isn't. 



> Actually, in all likelihood, he didn't. If that were the case, Kakashi wouldn't have been required to analyze Deva Path's attacks and the fact that Jiraiya was actually tagged by Animal Path suggests that he wasn't even capable of tangoing with all 6 of them in the first place. He even confirmed that fighting 3 Paths alone was too much for him unless he fought them all individually.


Lmao, tagged by Animal Path?

Dude hopped out of a lake of acid and stabbed him in the shoulder. He was taking a rest and let his guard down because he thought the fucking path boiled to death. 



> And that After Image you presented is inaccurate as we did see Jiraiya get wounded, by Animal Path's rod that actually disrupted his Chakra.


No, it's not.

I deliberately said "he wasn't wounded at all in it"

"It" being the courtyard, which he wasn't. 



> Susano'o Arrow honestly has far better portrayal in comparison to FRS, speed-wise at least.


No it does not, no idea where you got this from.

Portrayal means absolutely nothing in the face of feats regardless. 

V3 CS Arrow was the same speed as a BSM Naruto's bijuudama [1]

FRS traveled over the CT crater in a second, 4/6 of the paths reacted and were running at the speed of FRS, and SM Jiraiya *with one arm* was outmaneuvering *all 6* in the courtyard for an *extended period*.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 28, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> It was an example... If a ninja is going to jump on water, a wall, a ceiling, mud, anything why the fuck would they wait until their feet touches it to focus chakra?


Because like I said, if you touch a solid surface, you will have time to focus chakra to your feet, but its obviously not the same with water because you will sink if you don't have channeled chakra already.



> Or maybe the explanation is that you can't walk on the ensnaring chakra infused swamp.


Even if we assume that its too sticky that you can't walk, then he still wouldn't sink. Whatever the magic chakra does to prevent a shinobi from sinking on water would do the same thing for the swap. Mechanically they are the same.


> How does this stop it from mentioning that you can walk on it by focusing chakra on your feet? The syrup capturing field went out of it's way to say you can walk on it if you focus chakra on your feet beforehand.


We know that shinobi can walk on liquid with chakra to the feet. Databook would only mention this if there is an exception to the rule. Meaning it is possible to walk on Yomi Numa with chakra to the feet since it wasn't mentioned. Trapping people on its surface isn't what Yomi Numa does. You can't get out of it once you sink, that is the only part that is highlighted.



> This isn't your ordinary sticky surface.


Whats the difference ? Is there a vacuum on the surface that pulls you in ? The only thing that will sink you in initially is the gravity. The chakra to the feet prevents that from happening.



> I don't know. Yomi noma can counter Susanoo, Sasuke has no answer to food cart destroyer, Jiraiya has more boss summons than Sasuke, and even if Sasuke does boss summon then Jiraiya could just Yomi noma the boss summons. I agree Sasuke has a shot of winning, but it's going to be a high dif win at best.



These all assume that Sasuke just stands there and lets Jiriaya use his arsenal on him without retaliating. 

Sasuke can trade hits all day, Amaterasu and Susano'o arrows are stronger than anything Jiraiya has in his arsenal offensively.


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## ~M~ (Dec 28, 2015)

The ms hype is so real I can't stand it. 

I'm going to forever assume Amaterasu is dodged because of what bullshit defense and offense deus ex machina it is


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## Bringer (Dec 28, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He obviously needs pre-existing earth to create a swamp, but had there been no pre-existing Earth in that tunnel, then he couldn't have used Yomi Numa in the first place. Using the roof as a medium meant that the roof itself was made of earth. So he did make that ceiling into a swamp, its just that it possessed a different consistency to the one he used in Part I, likely because he was using hard earth rather than soil. But there was an entire ceiling's worth of earth, yet only the area around Human Path turned into a swamp.



I don't get what you're implying? Are you saying the jutsu is self aware and only scales to the opponent size against Jiraiya's will? Are you saying that Sage Mode Jiraiya can't replicate drugged Jiraiya's feat? Again, the only explanation is that Jiraiya chose not to sink Human Path all the way, because literally nothing implies that he couldn't. 





> Sasuke would have time to move his arms before he was completely submerged.



Well the snake summon was instantly submerged(Jiraiya said that the swamp wasn't big enough implying that the snake reached the bottom) The snake reached the bottom in a few panels. The swamp used on Human Path wasn't as deep, either because there simply wasn't enough earth in the ceiling, or because Sage Jiraiya chose to. 





> I'd like to think a Hawk appearing out of nowhere right below him would elevate him upwards, regardless of how strong the swamp's hold is. I think the sudden exertion of force pushing him upwards is greater than Animal Path trying to pull Human Path free. Not that this argument matters though, if you agree a snake could do the same job better



A hawk summoning beneath him would only elevate him a few feet, as opposed to a massive snake. 





> True, but then again, even against Pein, Jiraiya relied solely on Gamahiro. He didn't bother summoning anything else. He might change strategy, assuming he realises one toad isn't enough, has the chakra to spare, and hasn't already been hit with an Amaterasu. That's why I said I could give him the benefit of the doubt when it came to reaching Sage Mode, but it's quite a stretch.



*Summon Shima
*Shima has her own chakra reserves
*Shima summons the boss toad trio
*????
*Profit 






> Couldn't Sasuke channel raiton through it to mitigate the technique?



Susanoo is pretty huge, if anything he'd sink way to fast while inside of it. 





> Meh. Danzou just barely reacted to it, and it was by the speed of his Mokuton that he blocked it, which he had no control over. He has Hashirama to thank for that.



He still needed to react to shield himself with wood release, unless you're saying his arm is sentient and used the technique on its own. 





> Didn't he blitz Itachi? He seems faster than SM Jiraiya.



I'll concede to that. But if Kakashi and Danzo can react to an arrow, then so can Sage Jiraiya. 





> I do think Jiraiya has a good chance of dodging them for a while, his reactions are probably slightly better than Sharingan Kakashi's, and his movements are maybe Itachi level? Though I'm just estimating, I'm unsure since the extent of Jiraiya's speed was never shown. But I don't think Jiraiya can dance around arrows very easily, he'll be put under considerable pressure, especially if he's already been engulfed in an Amaterasu.



I agree it won't be easy for Jiraiya. Again I'm saying this fight is a 50/50 toss up for me. 

iyo how does Sasuke counter food cart destroyer? 





> I was never under that impression. I don't think Itachi had any great control over Amaterasu's speed either (it was Sasuke who harnessed that through Enton), so I doubt he optionally used Amaterasu (or Tsukuyomi for that matter) with the intention of his jutsu to fail.



I'll have to 100% disagree with you here. "Oh darn... He was supposed to kill me. Now he's in a coma. Better go get Tsunade" 

"NO! He isn't supposed to be incinerated! He's supposed to dodge Amaterasu!"

Also if MS Sasuke can dodge a serious Amaterasu that opens a window for a bunch of characters to dodge it. I mean as far as we know only Ei speed and above can avoid it, but if Itachi was being serious than anyone in MS Sasuke's speed ballpark could. 




> Do they? They both seem to do the same things, they just take effect differently. I don't logically see why Sasuke couldn't reverse the effects.



A genjutsu that tortures isn't the same as a genjutsu that knocks you unconscious. Also the only time genjutsu was reversed was when Itachi reversed Kurenai's genjutsu. I don't think the same could be done with Frog Song, Tayuya's flute genjutsu, Trollkage's clam genjutsu, etc. 



> Yeah, but unlike Sakura, I think MS Sasuke has the feats, and not just portrayal, to show that he's noticeably ahead of J-Man.



Nagato said Jiraiya would've won had he had full knowledge. Hype wise Jiraiya still stands strong. 





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because like I said, if you touch a solid surface, you will have time to focus chakra to your feet, but its obviously not the same with water because you will sink if you don't have channeled chakra already.



Sorry, I have a hard time believing ninja's wait until the last possible second to focus chakra into their feet. Human Path focused chakra on his feet and still got stuck, he wasn't going to wait until the last possible second to focus chakra on his feet. That's how I see it. We'll have to agree to disagree here. 




> Even if we assume that its too sticky that you can't walk, then he still wouldn't sink. Whatever the magic chakra does to prevent a shinobi from sinking on water would do the same thing for the swap. Mechanically they are the same.



While we're at it we might as well say ninja's can walk on lava. 



> We know that shinobi can walk on liquid with chakra to the feet. Databook would only mention this if there is an exception to the rule. Meaning it is possible to walk on Yomi Numa with chakra to the feet since it wasn't mentioned. Trapping people on its surface isn't what Yomi Numa does. You can't get out of it once you sink, that is the only part that is highlighted.



But the Starch Syrup technique wasn't an exception. The databook said you can walk on it. 

It would've said the same about Swamp of Underworld. 



> Whats the difference ? Is there a vacuum on the surface that pulls you in ? The only thing that will sink you in initially is the gravity. The chakra to the feet prevents that from happening.



Again, assuming you can walk on it, and again, assuming Sasuke will be able to focus chakra on his feet before he starts to sink. 



These all assume that Sasuke just stands there and lets Jiriaya use his arsenal on him without retaliating. 



> Sasuke can trade hits all day, Amaterasu and Susano'o arrows are stronger than anything Jiraiya has in his arsenal offensively.



I agree, I never said Jiraiya stomps, in fact I never said Jiraiya wins. I see this match as 50/50.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> They're both Sages...



 That's like saying 7 yr old Sasuke = VoTE Madara because they're both Transmigrants. You're literally implying that we can use SM Naruto's feats and apply them to SM Jiraiya even though that's entirely illogical.



> It doesn't matter, they read it's speed and reacted accordingly.



 With techniques that have far greater speed than using seals and physically initiating a jutsu.



> Susano Arrow isn't.



 Only option was to warp it with Kamui because it was too fast:

 [No other wound in his back but in that location]

 And that was only initiated at the last minute. Jiraiya gets negged because he has nothing as fast or faster than Kamui. 



> Lmao, tagged by Animal Path?
> 
> Dude hopped out of a lake of acid and stabbed him in the shoulder. He was taking a rest and let his guard down because he thought the fucking path boiled to death.



 There's no implication of that. No exclamation marks are present and no mention of being caught off-guard was made. All that was shown was that Jiraiya was tagged. 



> No, it's not.
> 
> I deliberately said "he wasn't wounded at all in it"
> 
> "It" being the courtyard, which he wasn't.



 I misunderstood you. Regardless, Pain didn't go all-out considering Deva Path never displayed his abilities and even Pain only sent one Path to charge into Jiraiya's barrier which leaves the impression that all of the Paths were left to be used defensively much like how Pain only used Preta Path offensively against SM Naruto with the other paths only providing support when necessary.



> No it does not, no idea where you got this from.
> 
> Portrayal means absolutely nothing in the face of feats regardless.
> 
> V3 CS Arrow was the same speed as a BSM Naruto's bijuudama [1]



 Well, Bijuudamas are pretty fast. 



> FRS traveled over the CT crater in a second, 4/6 of the paths reacted and were running at the speed of FRS, and SM Jiraiya *with one arm* was outmaneuvering *all 6* in the courtyard for an *extended period*.



 Again, FRS's portrayal pales in comparison to Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow.

 His Susano'o Arrow was portrayed as something that couldn't be evaded during the first few times that it was used. Likewise, FRS was easily dodged within the very first time it was displayed and Danzo and Kakashi both possess superior perceptive capabilities due to having Precognition.

 Hell, Deva Path evaded FRS from 2-3 meters after Naruto performed a feint. SM Kabuto who is much faster and reflexive couldn't evade Susano'o Arrow from a much larger distance when placed in a similar situation.

 Susano'o Arrow is by far faster unless you literally think Deva Path is within SM Kabuto's speed tier or even higher than that.


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## Turrin (Dec 28, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> That's like saying 7 yr old Sasuke = VoTE Madara because they're both Transmigrants. You're literally implying that we can use SM Naruto's feats and apply them to SM Jiraiya even though that's entirely illogical.


Actually what's illogical is assuming Naruto and Kabuto reaction is so much better than Jiraiya's. Jiraiya's Base Speed Stat is 4.5 and so is his Taijutsu stat. Naruto's Base Speed Stat is 3.5 and so is his Taijutsu stat. Kabuto's base speed stat is a 3.5 and so his Taijutsu stat. 

That means w/o SM, Jiraiya is 2 Tiers ahead of Kabuto and Naruto in speed and Taijutsu.  

So logically, adding the same power boost (SM) ontop off their original speed and taijutsu, Jiraiya should come out ahead. But wait Naruto and Kabuto are more complete sages, to which I say cool, than please show me where in the manga it's stated that being a more perfect Sage means a greater boost to speed and taijutsu, let alone one that would not only make up the 2 Tiers Jiraiya is ahead of Naruto/Buto, but than create a significant gap in Naruto/Buto's favor. 

-----

Realistically speaking it's being quite generous to say that Jiraiya only performs as well as Buto/Naruto, when it comes to their physical skills and reactions, when Base-Jiraiya is so decisively ahead of both of them to start with. Or to say this another way, to say that slightly less animal features in a SM (not even in Buto's case), makes up 2 Tiers difference in both speed/tai, when there is zero evidence that it provides any additional boosts to those areas whatsoever, is already being extremely bias in Naruto/Buto's favor, but what your view point is demanding, is for someone to not only believe that, but than believe it gives an even further boost making Buto/Naruto faster than Jiraiya to an extent where it makes a believable difference in ability to avoid high-speed attacks, I.E. probably another 2-3 Tier difference in their favor, oh and than of course it has to make up for the increase Jiraiya himself gets in SM, so that's like another 1-2 Tiers. So basically asking someone to believe slightly less animal features equals a 5-7 Tier difference in speed boost.


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## Duhul10 (Dec 29, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Actually what's illogical is assuming Naruto and Kabuto reaction is so much better than Jiraiya's. Jiraiya's Base Speed Stat is 4.5 and so is his Taijutsu stat. Naruto's Base Speed Stat is 3.5 and so is his Taijutsu stat. Kabuto's base speed stat is a 3.5 and so his Taijutsu stat.
> 
> That means w/o SM, Jiraiya is 2 Tiers ahead of Kabuto and Naruto in speed and Taijutsu.
> 
> ...



Great post.
Also, there is a page in the manga, where Fukasaku states that for being able to use senjutsu you need to have a perfect equality between body , nature and spirit. So Jiraiya with the help of fukasaku and shima was able to mantain the equality. Which means that the physical boost is the same for the sages, though looking back at Jiraiya's destroying advantage in base, things do not appear to be the same.


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## Icegaze (Dec 29, 2015)

It's not the same power boost turin

That's like saying rasengan and FRS have the same level of power 

Because both kabuto and naruto SM is perfect they would get a lot more of s boost than jiriaya 

What perfected technique is remotely comparable to its incomplete version ?

Would u compare V4 susanoo to its lower levels 

FRS to its lower levels

Tskuyomi to other itachi genjutsu with his own eyes 

Perfected is just that . PERFECTED!!


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## Icegaze (Dec 29, 2015)

Naruto rasengan is weaker than jiriaya because he is less skilled than jiriaya 

He perfected rasengan by creating FRS 

FRS>>>>> all variants of rasengan jiriaya can muster 

Base skill doesn't matter if u have perfected a technique . Since that perfected technique easily exceeds the imperfect one 

That and Naruto has much better strength and speed and reaction feats than SM jiriaya


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## Duhul10 (Dec 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Naruto rasengan is weaker than jiriaya because he is less skilled than jiriaya
> 
> He perfected rasengan by creating FRS
> 
> ...



The last phrase is bullshit if you refer to pain arc Sm Naruto. It is the opposite.
though war arc Naruto has better feats imo.
Jiraiya gets the same boost with the help of ma & pa. You should reread the pain arc. 
It is clearly stated that IN ORDER TO USE SENJUTSU, ONE HAS TO HAVE PERFECT EQUALITY BETWEEN PHYSICAL CAPACITY, NATURE ENERGY AND SPIRIT => Jiraiya's physical boost = Naruto's physical boost. 
But, then you have the fact that Naruto got a lot of experience in the sage arts in the war arc and the fact that he got involved in many battles in that mode, made him become a better sage in feats as well, not only portrayal compared to Jiraiya.
The difference between perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode was never mentioned, implied, shown in either manga, anime or db to be a difference in stats , so until the contrary this is how it stays.
Actually, Kishi gave even other abilities to Jiraiya, only to show that he was a true sage.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Actually what's illogical is assuming Naruto and Kabuto reaction is so much better than Jiraiya's. Jiraiya's Base Speed Stat is 4.5 and so is his Taijutsu stat. Naruto's Base Speed Stat is 3.5 and so is his Taijutsu stat. Kabuto's base speed stat is a 3.5 and so his Taijutsu stat.



 And Naruto's Base Speed Stat and his Taijutsu Stat is not applicable to the Pain Arc as it only extends upwards to Chapter 402. I also don't see the logic in using Kabuto's Base Speed Stat while making the assumption that having Orochimaru's Chakra (which was emphasized to have very high Physical Energy) suddenly didn't have an impact on Kabuto's Base Speed Stat.  

 As for the rest, I'm simply going to give you my input.

 Naruto and Kabuto are both Perfect Sages, so in a sense, it makes absolutely no sense to compare their Senjutsu boost as Jiraiya's an Imperfect Sage which logically would yield a smaller boost. This is specifically explained here:

 Link removed

 Pa indeed does state that Naruto's Senjutsu likely eclipses Jiraiya's own Senjutsu because Naruto mastered it whereas Jiraiya didn't. But this isn't what I wanted to present to you, it's merely the fact that Pa states that he's drawing out * more * Senjutsu Chakra than he did with the oil which implies that Naruto's own Senjutsu boost is greater as he's using more Senjutsu chakra as he did before.

 Was Naruto a Perfect Sage when he used the Oil? No. I'm not going to present a scan to support this, but Naruto clearly lacked the Dark Pigmentations which represents a True Sage and also inherited some Frog-like Characteristics as well when he did use the oil. Jiraiya also inherited Frog-like characteristics, so his Senjutsu boost was likely less than Naruto's.

 Furthermore, Pa literally states that Naruto surpassed his predecessors:

 Link removed

 Which obviously includes Jiraiya.

 But even then, I find it difficult to believe that we can apply SM Naruto's feats to SM Jiraiya's when SM Jiraiya was literally cock-blocked by Human Path and Human Path even tanked his own kick. If you want to say that SM Naruto's feats are on that level, then fine, but I'm simply not going to believe you. 

 SM Naruto outclassing Deva Path in Taijutsu, dispatching Preta Path in one hit, and moving much faster to intercept and blitz Asura Path from a very large distance outweighs anything SM Jiraiya had done in the manga.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 29, 2015)

There were only a couple days (which were spent training in the use of Senjutsu) between the time of that chapter and Naruto battling Pain, so those stats should be applicable.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 29, 2015)

Kabuto wasn't a perfect sage, he looked like a dragon and grew horns.

No different than Jiraiya growing frog legs and a morphed nose.

I agree with Flaming Rain and Duhul, I'll reply to your other points shortly.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kabuto wasn't a perfect sage, he looked like a fucking dragon and grew horns.
> 
> No different than Jiraiya growing frog legs and a morphed nose.



 Actually, he looked relatively similar to his Base Mode except he grew horns, but still inherited the Dark Pigmentation which is a sign of being a True Sage to Pa's own affirmation.

 Not to mention that Kishimoto literally confirms that Kabuto's a True Sage and Itachi didn't seem to deny that:

 Link removed

 Actually, he seemed to confirm Kabuto's statement.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 29, 2015)

No, he had sharpened teeth, widened mouth and 4 horns.

That's not a perfect sage.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, he had sharpened teeth, widened mouth and 4 horns.
> 
> That's not a perfect sage.



 Though regardless of whether or not you're right, those aren't characteristics of a Snake, those are characteristics of a Dragon. Him inheriting those characteristics emphasizes his ascent to being a True Sage as he's no longer an Imperfect Snake like Orochimaru is, but rather, a Dragon. Last time I checked, Snakes do not have horns.

 Itachi confirming Kabuto's statement of being a True Sage and having the Dark Pigmentations that a True Sage would suggests that you're wrong.


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## LightningForce (Dec 29, 2015)

UchihaX28 is right.

Perfect Snake Sage -> Dragon-like appearance. [1]
Perfect Toad Sage -> No toad-like characteristics. [1]


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2015)

LightningForce said:


> UchihaX28 is right.
> 
> Perfect Snake Sage -> Dragon-like appearance. [1]
> Perfect Toad Sage -> No toad-like characteristics. [1]



 Thank you. Repped for agreeing with me.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 29, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> Though regardless of whether or not you're right, those aren't characteristics of a Snake, those are characteristics of a Dragon. Him inheriting those characteristics emphasizes his ascent to being a True Sage as he's no longer an Imperfect Snake like Orochimaru is, but rather, a Dragon. Last time I checked, Snakes do not have horns.
> 
> Itachi confirming Kabuto's statement of being a True Sage and having the Dark Pigmentations that a True Sage would suggests that you're wrong.


Itachi doesn't know anything about Sage Mode, not sure why you're using him as a source of confirmation. 

Nagato knew virtually nothing of it, and he had a master skilled in it. 

When you grow 4 horns, it's a clear indication you don't have complete control over Senjutsu. This was obvious though when he didn't have the skills needed to constantly gather natural energy himself, especially while moving, or enough at one point so that he could maintain it while fighting for a small period (like Hashirama or Naruto) and required Jugo's ability to fill the void.


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## LightningForce (Dec 29, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> Thank you. Repped for agreeing with me.



No problem, you are literally quoting manga facts and interpreting author's portrayal correctly.

DaWizViz, there is no ambiguity in Kabuto being a perfect Sage. I hope you're not arguing simply for argument's sake.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 29, 2015)

It's not the author's portrayal, it's the monologue of a narcissistic psychopathic liar. 

Kabuto's entire life was a lie and has more bullshit statements than any character in the manga, extending well back into Part 1. 

There's several ridiculous statements in that battle itself. 

"Itachi, you're god!"

"I'm now closer to the Sage of Six Paths than anyone!" 

Are you serious?

Dude was full of himself and completely insane. 

That's not a perfect sage, he's got horns protruding from his skull.


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## LightningForce (Dec 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It's not the author's portrayal, it's the monologue of a narcissistic psychopathic liar.
> 
> Kabuto's entire life was a lie and has more bullshit statements than any character in the manga, extending well back into Part 1.
> 
> ...



But those quotes don't imply he's insane. He's a megalomaniac, sure, but not insane. It is arguable that he was closer to SoSP than anyone at the time (as in Sage-wise), since Nagato was dead and Obito clearly couldn't handle the power of Rinnegan (another attribute of the SoSP). Edo Madara was just an undead tool, so he's not included in the tally.

The reason why he has horns is to portray his evolution from a snake to a dragon, the latter which contains the horns. Kishi took this idea straight from mythological literature, as he often does for other techniques: _"...dragons exist but they are serpents borne of other serpents. Being just born and young, they are small; but when they grow up and get mature, they become big and fat so that exceed the other serpents in length and size."
_ [].

Additionally, he can perfectly balance SM on his own, and can utilize nature sensing much like Naruto can. He can literally fight with his eyes blinded. His senjutsu techniques can transform nature itself. The portrayal is clear.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 29, 2015)

He's insane. He transplanted body parts from a snake man and revived the dead to wage war to illuminate the world in Genjutsu and effectively end it.

The quotes are merely meant to showcase he's full of himself and an emphatic liar, not that he's insane, his actions showcased that. 

The definition of a Perfect Sage is one who undergoes no distinctive physical mutations because they've perfectly balanced the three worldly energies. 

He has 4 horns on his head, sharpened teeth and a widened mouth while in Sage Mode. 

When he's not in Sage Mode, he does not have any of the above. 

Here's a comparison:

He's not a perfect sage.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> And Naruto's Base Speed Stat and his Taijutsu Stat is not applicable to the Pain Arc as it only extends upwards to Chapter 402.


Over the course of a 2.5 Year Time-Skip, Suna Arc, Penis Arc, Immortals Arc, and Uchiha Brothers Arc, Naruto's Spd stat only increased by 1 Tier.  SoI think expecting it to increase by that much over the course of a few chapters or 1 weeks time in-verse, is pretty unfounded; especially when Naruto did not train whatsoever to increase his spd.

At least w/ Taijutsu we saw a more notable increase over the TS and those arcs of 2 Tiers, and Naruto actually trained in Taijutsu w/ Fusaku during the Pain-Arc, so you could make a case for some growth there, but 2 Tiers seems pretty unlikely; and even that would only amount to him matching Base-J-man.



> I also don't see the logic in using Kabuto's Base Speed Stat while making the assumption that having Orochimaru's Chakra (which was emphasized to have very high Physical Energy) suddenly didn't have an impact on Kabuto's Base Speed Stat.


1) Kabuto already had Orochimaru's chakra as of DBIII
2) Orochimaru's chakra was indicated to have powerful life force, not any tangible boosts to Spd or Taijutsu skill

Outside of that again, you can argue he increased his skill in both those areas, but in terms of growth in those areas he's even worse than Naruto. His Spd didn't increase even a single tier from Chunin Exams Arc to Uchiha Brothers arc, and his Taijutsu didn't increase even a single tier from the End of Part II to the Uchiha Brothers Arc. So again expecting a 2 Tier increase in ether stat, is very unlikely.



> as Naruto a Perfect Sage when he used the Oil? No. I'm not going to present a scan to support this, but Naruto clearly lacked the Dark Pigmentations which represents a True Sage and also inherited some Frog-like Characteristics as well when he did use the oil. Jiraiya also inherited Frog-like characteristics, so his Senjutsu boost was likely less than Naruto's.
> 
> Furthermore, Pa literally states that Naruto surpassed his predecessors:


Dude, I never denied once that Naruto is a better Sage than Jiraiya, but I don't think that justifies the assertion that SM-Naruto is significantly faster and more skillful in taijutsu than SM-Jiriaya.

I mean the difference in Naruto's SM and Jiraiya's SM really is not that significant. It's not like Jiraiya is a walking Toad in SM, he only retains very minor animal features in SM. So how far off is Jiriaya's SM from Naruto's PSM, in reality? 95%? 90%? 85%? Whichever it is, is that really making a significant difference in how much Naruto's SM boosts him versus Jiraiya's SM; and even if it is, is it making the monstrous difference that is required to make up for the fact that Base-Jiraiya starts at a point that is already well ahead of Base-Naruto, before we add their individual SM enhancements ontop of it.

I just don't see any evidence for such a small variation making such a huge difference.



> But even then, I find it difficult to believe that we can apply SM Naruto's feats to SM Jiraiya's when SM Jiraiya was literally cock-blocked by Human Path and Human Path even tanked his own kick. If you want to say that SM Naruto's feats are on that level, then fine, but I'm simply not going to believe you.


Dude we've seen characters who should be far stronger physically get cock-blocked by much weaker characters multiple times. For example Itachi cockblocks both KCM-Naruto and SM-Kabuto, both of which should have insanely monstrous strength. 

In Human Realm's case we don't even know how physically strong Human-Realm really was, because we have nothing to base his Str on, besides him catching SM-Jiriaya's punch. So I don't even know how we rate Human Realm, let alone begin to use that example against SM-Jiriaya, when considering the above.



> SM Naruto outclassing Deva Path in Taijutsu, dispatching Preta Path in one hit, and moving much faster to intercept and blitz Asura Path from a very large distance outweighs anything SM Jiraiya had done in the manga.


It really doesn't dude.  SM-Jiraiya blitz'd an off guard Pain Realm when he first entered SM, the same as Naruto (Human Realm). He also kicked the shit out of Animal-Path in Taijutsu, once the other paths were out of the way.

He only struggled to make physical attacks work, when the Paths were on guard and making use of Shared Vision, but than so did Naruto, as HG Realm was able to easily evade Naruto's physical punch, thus requiring Ghost Punches to put down. 

So rather it's the opposite, Naruto and Jiraiya performed very similarly against Pain as far as Spd and
Hand to Hand combat is concerned.


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## Icegaze (Dec 29, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> The last phrase is bullshit if you refer to pain arc Sm Naruto. It is the opposite.
> though war arc Naruto has better feats imo.
> Jiraiya gets the same boost with the help of ma & pa. You should reread the pain arc.
> It is clearly stated that IN ORDER TO USE SENJUTSU, ONE HAS TO HAVE PERFECT EQUALITY BETWEEN PHYSICAL CAPACITY, NATURE ENERGY AND SPIRIT => Jiraiya's physical boost = Naruto's physical boost.
> ...





SM jiriaya gets casually blocked 1 hand by human path 

Naruto 1 shot punches preta 

Naruto kick sends deva flying despite blocking 

Jiriaya when he gets blocked the path doesn't move 

Naruto shit horribly blitzes asura path 

Jiriaya didn't blitz any path in that fashion 

Denial is real with u 

Again feel free to explain why sage mode rules would suddenly be different from other techniques from imperfect versions to their perfected versions

As to DB4 giving jiriaya frog katas it's a retcon am fine with 

A funny one though considering minato who didn't need assistance to use sage mode doesn't have the jutsu 

That's kishi and not really thinking past the next chapter


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 30, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Over the course of a 2.5 Year Time-Skip, Suna Arc, Penis Arc, Immortals Arc, and Uchiha Brothers Arc, Naruto's Spd stat only increased by 1 Tier.  SoI think expecting it to increase by that much over the course of a few chapters or 1 weeks time in-verse, is pretty unfounded; especially when Naruto did not train whatsoever to increase his spd.



 That's a fair point though the gap between the BoS and the Penis Arc () was similar to half a year rather than a weeks time in-verse which I would assume is plenty of time for Naruto to improve considering Naruto displayed immense improvements in a short period of time. Naruto actually being unable to snatch the bells from Kakashi despite having Sakura's aid to literally Kakashi believing that Naruto may have surpassed him.

 That's enough for me to assume that Naruto's improvements outweighed how much he improved during the Time-Skip.



> At least w/ Taijutsu we saw a more notable increase over the TS and those arcs of 2 Tiers, and Naruto actually trained in Taijutsu w/ Fusaku during the Pain-Arc, so you could make a case for some growth there, but 2 Tiers seems pretty unlikely; and even that would only amount to him matching Base-J-man.



 You mean 1 Tier considering Naruto's own Taijutsu ability was a 3.5 whereas Jiraiya's was a 4.5. 

 Though naturally, your Chakra grows stronger through training which is something Sakura emphasized, so it's possible that Naruto's Chakra development enabled him improve his Base stats even if his training wasn't entirely focused around it. It likely explains why Naruto's own Speed jumped from a 2 to a 3 despite his training not being centered around speed.




> 1) Kabuto already had Orochimaru's chakra as of DBIII
> 2) Orochimaru's chakra was indicated to have powerful life force, not any tangible boosts to Spd or Taijutsu skill



 Having a powerful life force is associated with having a very powerful chakra which correlates to an increase in speed.

 Kabuto's entire body never synchronized with Orochimaru's Chakra until after the Kage Summit which extends dozens of chapters after DBIII.



> Outside of that again, you can argue he increased his skill in both those areas, but in terms of growth in those areas he's even worse than Naruto. His Spd didn't increase even a single tier from Chunin Exams Arc to Uchiha Brothers arc, and his Taijutsu didn't increase even a single tier from the End of Part II to the Uchiha Brothers Arc. So again expecting a 2 Tier increase in ether stat, is very unlikely.



 Except his entire body synchronized with Orochimaru's own Chakra which yields an increase in speed due to Orochimaru's powerful Chakra. Though strangely, while you're correct, I can't see how Kabuto didn't improve. Kabuto literally pissed himself at VoTE Sasuke's Chakra yet he was calm and collected against KN3 Naruto. Seems rather strange to handle himself quite well against a much stronger Chakra unless he improved quite a bit.




> Dude, I never denied once that Naruto is a better Sage than Jiraiya, but I don't think that justifies the assertion that SM-Naruto is significantly faster and more skillful in taijutsu than SM-Jiriaya.



 Given Manga statements and how Pa actually believed that Naruto's Sage Mode * eclipsed * Jiraiya's, I think it's a fair assumption.



> I mean the difference in Naruto's SM and Jiraiya's SM really is not that significant. It's not like Jiraiya is a walking Toad in SM, he only retains very minor animal features in SM. So how far off is Jiriaya's SM from Naruto's PSM, in reality? 95%? 90%? 85%? Whichever it is, is that really making a significant difference in how much Naruto's SM boosts him versus Jiraiya's SM; and even if it is, is it making the monstrous difference that is required to make up for the fact that Base-Jiraiya starts at a point that is already well ahead of Base-Naruto, before we add their individual SM enhancements ontop of it.



 Honestly, Kishimoto likely doesn't care. We had multiple ninja improving immensely before the War-Arc with Kakashi making significant improvements in speed and stamina despite there being a very small gap between the Kage Summit and the War Arc. The entire point of Naruto's training was to enable him to defeat Pain which was obviously something Jiraiya couldn't and we have multiple statements supporting the idea that Naruto did indeed surpass Jiraiya.

 Tsunade having faith that Naruto would surpass Jiraiya and Pa even admitting that he surpassed Jiraiya outweighs your interpretation of the manga. Unless you can actually present me a statement that actually contradicts Pa's analysis of Naruto's ability, you have no basis here. That's even excluding the fact that Pa never witnessed Naruto's FRS which naturally puts Pain Arc SM Naruto even higher than he expected.

 But as I already stated, Pa literally thought that Naruto's Sage Mode may have * eclipsed * even Jiraiya's because he literally perfected it and he acknowledged that there was a noticeable improvement in the amount of Senjutsu Chakra Naruto used when he Perfect Sage Mode in-comparison to when he was an Imperfect Sage. You can make assumptions that the gap between Imperfect Sages and Perfect Sages is only 5-15%, but the Pa's statement seems to suggest otherwise.

 Hell, didn't Jiraiya just claim that his Senjutsu paled in comparison to Ma and Pa's:

 2 





> I just don't see any evidence for such a small variation making such a huge difference.



 I don't see anything in the manga that suggests that SM Naruto = SM Jiraiya either when manga clearly indicates that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya.



> Dude we've seen characters who should be far stronger physically get cock-blocked by much weaker characters multiple times. For example Itachi cockblocks both KCM-Naruto and SM-Kabuto, both of which should have insanely monstrous strength.



 Itachi never cock-blocked either of them.

 Itachi and KCM Naruto both clashed as equals and only deflected blows for a rather short period of time It didn't even seem as if KCM Naruto was actually applying much force in those blows.

 Itachi and SM Kabuto stalemated and the clash led to Itachi sliding backwards due to Kabuto's momentum.

 Human Path, however, literally cancelled out all of the momentum within SM Jiraiya's punch with a single hand while still remaining in the same position. Human Path effortlessly blocked it and Jiraiya knew it. The way they were fighting made Jiraiya confirm that Taijutsu was overall useless.



> In Human Realm's case we don't even know how physically strong Human-Realm really was, because we have nothing to base his Str on, besides him catching SM-Jiriaya's punch. So I don't even know how we rate Human Realm, let alone begin to use that example against SM-Jiriaya, when considering the above.



 Yeah, no. Neither of the Paths could block SM Naruto's hits the way they did against SM Jiraiya.



> It really doesn't dude.  SM-Jiraiya blitz'd an off guard Pain Realm when he first entered SM, the same as Naruto (Human Realm). He also kicked the shit out of Animal-Path in Taijutsu, once the other paths were out of the way.



 He never blitzed any of the Paths, but if he did, then provide the scan that supports that.

 SM Jiraiya also only kicked the shit out of Animal Path due to Yomi Numa throwing Pain off and the fact that Frog Song was partially disrupting Animal Path's senses. He seemed relatively unprepared because of that. 



> He only struggled to make physical attacks work, when the Paths were on guard and making use of Shared Vision, but than so did Naruto, as HG Realm was able to easily evade Naruto's physical punch, thus requiring Ghost Punches to put down.



 It was more rather that Shared Vision was required to counter Jiraiya's sneaky tactics. Human Path still cock-blocked SM Jiraiya and Human Path using Animal Path's Rinnegan to his advantage is similar to having only one set of eyes, so I'm not sure how that's entirely comparable to Preta Path's evasion against SM Naruto when all of the Paths were focusing on SM Naruto.

 Even then, SM Naruto already displayed superiority over SM JIraiya by bypassing Pain's Shared Vision whereas SM Jiraiya was unable to. It's interesting how Naruto was also paired up with the strongest Path in that scenario as well and his strategy would've taken out all of the Paths had it been Animal or Human Path as opposed to Deva Path.

 I still don't see how either of SM Jiraiya's feats hold up to SM Naruto's.

 SM Naruto dispatched a Path in one blow whereas SM Jiraiya's flying kicks did nothing to Human nor Animal Path, managed to intercept and blitz Asura Path from a large distance even when Pain's attention was directed towards Naruto, managed to counter Shared Vision when the Strongest of the Paths was present, which was something SM Jiraiya failed to do, and overpowered Deva Path in CQC multiple times who is by far, the most reflexive and strongest of the Paths.


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## Duhul10 (Dec 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> SM jiriaya gets casually blocked 1 hand by human path
> 
> Naruto 1 shot punches preta
> 
> ...



Sm Jiraiya got blocked because of shared vision. Naruto attacked the path face to face and used ghost punches to snap his neck. The two scenes are everything but similar.
Jiraiya blitzed the paths. You are the one denying.
I do not have time to explain that to you. Reread or read the pain arc and Naruto's entire training and you will see, also, give me a proof that there are  differences between imprerfect sage mode and perfect sage mode, other than the time needed to enter the mode, the toad-like appearance ( which actually helps Jiraiya ) and the need of the two great sages ( which actually helps Jiraiya - a lot )
We cannot know if it was retcon, or sensing did not work on the chameleon and why am i saying that ? because Jiraiya sensed Human Path inside the cloud. Also, Ma sensed human path coming at Jiraiya's back.


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## Icegaze (Dec 30, 2015)

Naruto kick gets blocked deva is sent flying 
Jiriaya punch blocked the path doesn't move an inch

Naruto is simply physically stronger 

The whole surpassing jiriaya thing was clearly stated

Go argue with kishi

If u gonna claim based on the counter human path in the cloud as a feat for sensing then itachi is a sensor as well 

He attacked Narito when Naruto came from behind


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## Duhul10 (Dec 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Naruto kick gets blocked deva is sent flying
> Jiriaya punch blocked the path doesn't move an inch
> 
> Naruto is simply physically stronger
> ...



Yes, Naruto surpassed Jiraiya as a sage. He enters faster in sage mode and has the pigmentation. Nothing indicates more.
It was the fact that Jiraiya saw him through the dust cloud, while the rinnegan was barely percieving some shadows.


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## Icegaze (Dec 30, 2015)

They said surpassed 

Scans were they were referring to specifically as a sage

I'll wait 

Being more versatile doesn't suddenly mean jiriaya is better overal


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## Duhul10 (Dec 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> They said surpassed
> 
> Scans were they were referring to specifically as a sage
> 
> ...



Jiraiya was stated to be able to defeat pain. Naruto never got close to that level of hype in that arc.
Yes, he surpassed Jiraiya specifically as a sage. Pigmentation + little time > Toad traits + more time 

Jiraiya is better overall because of ma &pa and because of his feats and hype


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## Turrin (Dec 30, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> That's a fair point though the gap between the BoS and the Penis Arc () was similar to half a year rather than a weeks time in-verse which I would assume is plenty of time for Naruto to improve considering Naruto displayed immense improvements in a short period of time.


 I don't know what BOS is 



> Naruto actually being unable to snatch the bells from Kakashi despite having Sakura's aid to literally Kakashi believing that Naruto may have surpassed him.



Naruto improved dramatically in the wind arc, because of the 1-1,000 style training which allowed Naruto a huge exp multiplier, but it didn't do anything for Naruto physically. So using that as an example is extremely flawed imo. Again I think the more relevant example is what I cited, I.E. the fact that basically over the course of 3 Years (including another major training arc) Naruto did not improve anywhere near as much as your view point is demanding us to believe he improved within a week's time. I just don't find this to be fair.



> You mean 1 Tier considering Naruto's own Taijutsu ability was a 3.5 whereas Jiraiya's was a 4.5.


Each .5 is a tier in the DB, so no I mean 2 Tiers.



> Though naturally, your Chakra grows stronger through training which is something Sakura emphasized, so it's possible that Naruto's Chakra development enabled him improve his Base stats even if his training wasn't entirely focused around it. It likely explains why Naruto's own Speed jumped from a 2 to a 3 despite his training not being centered around speed.





> Having a powerful life force is associated with having a very powerful chakra which correlates to an increase in speed.


The only time we've seen Chakra effected physical stats, is when a shinobi gains a tremendous boost of chakra, like Bijuu Quantities and even than it seems like quality of the chakra also matters, I.E. coming from a special source like a Bijuu. 

In Naruto's case we have zero reason to believe Naruto's chakra quantity increased tremendously during the Pain arc, as a tremendous increase of chakra was never his goal, as he already had the chakra capacity required to become a Sage going in and his Senjutsu training focused on other areas.

As far as Naruto spd increase from Data-Book I to Data-book 2, i'd attribute that to A) it being easier to advance stats when the lower, I.E. it's easier to advance from a 2-3, than a 3 to a 4, B) Naruto physically exerting himself to far greater degree during Rasengan training than he did during Senjutsu training. 



> Kabuto's entire body never synchronized with Orochimaru's Chakra until after the Kage Summit which extends dozens of chapters after DBIII.


Look dude, Sasuke literally absorbed Orochimaru and gained no noteworthy speed increases. Kabuto never once attributes a spd increase to Orochimaru's Chakra, nor does anyone else attribute such. I'd also think if your stance here had any legs whatsoever, that we'd see some increase in Kabuto's spd in DBIII, to show the chakra was enhancing him, even if it wasn't perfectly integrated yet and therefore not offering him as large of an increase as it later would, but we get nothing nada, zip.

And fuck the real Orochimaru himself who has his own chakra in spades and full command over it was never a speed demon because of it to begin with ether. Yamata who had Senju Hashirama's DNA which is integrated with even more absurd life force than Orochimaru's DNA didn't gain a speed increase ether. No one commented on Madara gaining a speed increase w/ Hashirama's DNA ether, not even Hashirama that knew the old Madara. And so.

And in now way should this increase Kabuto's Taijutsu skill.

So I just see zero evidence, let alone compelling enough evidence that would warrant us assuming Kabuto's spd and taijutsu increased 2 or more tiers during that time period.




> Given Manga statements and how Pa actually believed that Naruto's Sage Mode eclipsed Jiraiya's, I think it's a fair assumption.


No it's not, because the Manga Statements and PA never say that means Naruto gains a tremendously greater boost in Spd/Tai, as your stance requires one to believe.



> Honestly, Kishimoto likely doesn't care. We had multiple ninja improving immensely before the War-Arc with Kakashi making significant improvements in speed and stamina despite there being a very small gap between the Kage Summit and the War Arc. The entire point of Naruto's training was to enable him to defeat Pain which was obviously something Jiraiya couldn't and we have multiple statements supporting the idea that Naruto did indeed surpass Jiraiya.
> 
> Tsunade having faith that Naruto would surpass Jiraiya and Pa even admitting that he surpassed Jiraiya outweighs your interpretation of the manga. Unless you can actually present me a statement that actually contradicts Pa's analysis of Naruto's ability, you have no basis here. That's even excluding the fact that Pa never witnessed Naruto's FRS which naturally puts Pain Arc SM Naruto even higher than he expected.





> I don't see anything in the manga that suggests that SM Naruto = SM Jiraiya either when manga clearly indicates that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya.


This literally has nothing to do with spd and taijutsu. Discarding the fact that I maintain Pa was referring exclusively to SM, and assuming Pa meant overall and that was the intent of the arc, Pa also claimed Naruto surpassed Minato, does that mean Naruto is better at Minato than everything, including spd at that point? Obviously not. 



> But as I already stated, Pa literally thought that Naruto's Sage Mode may have eclipsed even Jiraiya's because he literally perfected it and he acknowledged that there was a noticeable improvement in the amount of Senjutsu Chakra Naruto used when he Perfect Sage Mode in-comparison to when he was an Imperfect Sage. You can make assumptions that the gap between Imperfect Sages and Perfect Sages is only 5-15%, but the Pa's statement seems to suggest otherwise.


No it doesn't. 

First off Pa doesn't say eclipsed at all, Fukasaku says is he surpassed Jiraiya:

Pa, "So Naruto-chan has actually become a Sennin surpassing even Jiraiya-chan!"

And I agree he surpassed him, I also agree that  balancing the energies more efficiently could increase Naruto's gains from the mode. But again your view point requires one to believe TREMENDOUS increases, which I still see ZERO evidence for.



> Itachi and KCM Naruto both clashed as equals and only deflected blows for a rather short period of time It didn't even seem as *if KCM Naruto was actually applying much force in those blows*.


Human Path only stopped one blow, and the not applying much force argument can also be applied to SM-Jiraiya then. You must see how your coming up with excuses for Naruto, but not accepting any for Jiraiya; and how that's not a fair way to hold a conversation



> Itachi and SM Kabuto stalemated and the clash led to Itachi sliding backwards due to Kabuto's momentum


Cool, that still shows a much weaker character holding back a Sages blow.



> Yeah, no. Neither of the Paths could block SM Naruto's hits the way they did against SM Jiraiya.


This is based on nothing on your part, considering again Naruto's despite having overwhelmingly greater strength than certain enemies has had his blows blocked in the past.



> He never blitzed any of the Paths, but if he did, then provide the scan that supports that.


pushing Kakashi backwards
pushing Kakashi backwards



> SM Jiraiya also only kicked the shit out of Animal Path due to Yomi Numa throwing Pain off and the fact that Frog Song was partially disrupting Animal Path's senses. He seemed relatively unprepared because of that.


Your making up BS excuses dude. It had zero to do with those factors. All we see is Pain try to react in time and get blitz kicked before he could. And right before that Jiraiya talks about how he's confident he can own the paths 1v1, which is exactly what he ended up doing. 



> It was more rather that Shared Vision was required to counter Jiraiya's sneaky tactics. Human Path still cock-blocked SM Jiraiya and Human Path using Animal Path's Rinnegan to his advantage is similar to having only one set of eyes, so I'm not sure how that's entirely comparable to Preta Path's evasion against SM Naruto when all of the Paths were focusing on SM Naruto.


Shared Vision was clearly highlighted as the reason HG Realm avoided Naruto's physical attack:
pushing Kakashi backwards



> Even then, SM Naruto already displayed superiority over SM JIraiya by bypassing Pain's Shared Vision whereas SM Jiraiya was unable to. It's interesting how Naruto was also paired up with the strongest Path in that scenario as well and his strategy would've taken out all of the Paths had it been Animal or Human Path as opposed to Deva Path


He bypassed it by using Ghost Punches, not by having superior Spd. And apparently Jiraiya also had Ghost Punches according to Kishimoto, so it honestly just seems like PNJ that Jiraiya didn't use them or that Kishi simply didn't think them up at the point of Jiriaya vs Pain. But ether way this has nothing to do with what's being discussed here.



> SM Naruto dispatched a Path in one blow whereas SM Jiraiya's flying kicks did nothing to Human nor Animal Path


Naruto's Ghost Punch one-shotted a Path, while the only Path hit by Naruto's physical blows (Deva) survived the same as Animal and Human survived Jiraiya's physical blows.



> managed to intercept and blitz Asura Path from a large distance even when Pain's attention was directed towards Naruto


His attention was directed towards Tsunade



> overpowered Deva Path in CQC multiple times who is by far, the most reflexive and strongest of the Paths


Based on nothing on your part. The path's likely all have the same reactions, as they all have the same Dojutsu and are all controlled by Nagato. The physical strength of the paths may very on the host body we don't know, but than they all having varying stats, and we don't know which ones are better. Though I'd think clearly CQC oriented paths like Human and Ashura, are probably better than Deva, who relies more on his powerful Gravity based Ninjutsu, but again I totally admit Idk for sure, but than nether do you.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Itachi doesn't know anything about Sage Mode, not sure why you're using him as a source of confirmation.



He knew at least something about Sage Mode, he knew of Ryuchido.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 30, 2015)

^
I can't believe someone would say that... But then, I guess some people don't pay as much attention.

Itachi clearly knew about SM, he even says "I was right" twice. He knew Kabuto was a sage once he heard the phrases"force of nature" and "Ryuchidou."


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Yup, Itachi knew about Sage Mode. In fact, he's the first one to mention Ryuchido outside of Kabuto.


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## EternalRage (Dec 30, 2015)

...

MS Sasuke > SM Naruto > Pein Paths > Jiraiya

IMO Jiraiya could have take 1-3 of the Pein Paths on his own but Sasuke could likely solo all of them. Full knowledge barely helps Jiraiya and I guess Sasuke is on his own so Jiraiya get's the advantage.

Sasuke wins Mid-Mid diff.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

EternalRage said:


> ...
> 
> MS Sasuke > SM Naruto > Pein Paths > Jiraiya
> 
> ...



The prospect of either MS Sasuke or SM Naruto being above Pain is laughable.


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## EternalRage (Dec 30, 2015)

When SM Naruto obliterated Pain? 

And MS Sasuke is above SM Naruto? 

Suusano, that's all.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

EternalRage said:


> When SM Naruto obliterated Pain?
> 
> And MS Sasuke is above SM Naruto?
> 
> Suusano, that's all.



Are you serious? SM Naruto obliterated Pain? He was facing a restricted Pain that only had intent to capture Naruto and he was only saved because of the Kyubi, you're kidding yourself if you think that SM Naruto was above Pain.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 31, 2015)

Just bumping this to let Turrin know that I will refute his post tomorrow.

 I've just been busy with doing College Application shit that I don't really feel like making long rebuttals today.


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Jiraiya was stated to be able to defeat pain. Naruto never got close to that level of hype in that arc.
> Yes, he surpassed Jiraiya specifically as a sage. Pigmentation + little time > Toad traits + more time
> 
> Jiraiya is better overall because of ma &pa and because of his feats and hype





Isn't being hyped as someone who was stated to defeat pain hype enough

Don't be dense 

If ur hyped as the best and I am stated point blank what does that now make me ?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 31, 2015)

Tsunade states Naruto would surpass Jiraiya, and Pa literally confirms that after SM Naruto intercepted and blitzed Asura Path from a very large distance almost instantly.

 I'm not sure how it's debatable.


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## Saru (Dec 31, 2015)

I see people are still trying to use J-Man's hype from Pain to win him arguments. Jiraiya fought a Nagato that couldn't use Chibaku Tensei due to being in Amegakure, and that jutsu would have crushed Jiraiya. Same case for the Konoha-sized Shinra Tensei. 

Also, Kishimoto made it pretty clear that SM Naruto had surpassed Jiraiya in literally every aspect of senjutsu. The only thing Jiraiya has over Naruto is variability, but that's not enough to say that him and SM Naruto are equals. 

Jiraiya is not beating Sasuke here.


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