# Edward Snowden seeks asylum in Russia



## ExoSkel (Jul 1, 2013)

> MOSCOW ? The Kremlin on Monday found itself confronted with a dilemma it had hoped to avoid, after an official revealed that Edward J. Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor wanted by the United States, had submitted a request to Russia for political asylum.
> 
> Kim N. Shevchenko, the consul at Sheremetyevo airport, said that Mr. Snowden?s traveling companion hand-delivered Mr. Snowden?s request late Sunday evening to a Russian consulate in Terminal F of the airport, and that it had been passed to the country?s Foreign Ministry.
> 
> ...




At this point, he doesn't care. All he wants is to get away from the paws of US as much as possible. 

My bet is on Putin will just get sensitive information out of Snowden and send his ass back to 'Murica.


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## Fiona (Jul 1, 2013)

Oh snap


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2013)

>*Snow*den
>In Russia

Lol. Ironic.


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## ExoSkel (Jul 1, 2013)

Snowdenski


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## Chelydra (Jul 1, 2013)

This dude  what a pussy. Sadly he will continue to leak sensitive info to the Russians and live a relatively good life.


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## Mider T (Jul 1, 2013)

lulz
 more lulz

Going to a place with less freedoms than the U.S., colder (he was from Hawaii), and now the world's most watched man.


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## ExoSkel (Jul 1, 2013)

Chelydra said:


> This dude  what a pussy. Sadly he will continue to leak sensitive info to the Russians and live a relatively good life.


Big Brother Putin will give him a lucrative deal for his informations. Then he will make a back deal with US government and send his ass packing back to angry "Murica.


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## ExoSkel (Jul 1, 2013)

Mider T said:


> lulz
> more lulz
> 
> Going to a place with less freedoms than the U.S., colder (he was from Hawaii), and now the world's most watched man.


He worked in DC. That place is a freezing wasteland just like Russia during middle of winter.

He will be fine.


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## Mider T (Jul 2, 2013)

No bro, DC is a tropical island compared to Russian winters.
And Russia doesn't want info.


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## makeoutparadise (Jul 2, 2013)

should have gotten on to that cuba flight


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## Bishop (Jul 2, 2013)

Thought he was in Ecuador...


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## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

"Help me, Darth Vader. You're my only hope."


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## navy (Jul 2, 2013)

I dont know what to think of Snowden. On one end he did good on the other hand he....


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## makeoutparadise (Jul 2, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> >*Snow*den
> >In Russia
> 
> Lol. Ironic.





ExoSkel said:


> Snowdenski



Snowden literally means Snow home


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## Shinigami Perv (Jul 2, 2013)

He doesn't really have a choice with no one offering him asylum. There's conflicting information coming out of Ecuador. Some say the president offered, others saying that he revoked Snowden's pass as a rejection. Apparently there's also the problem of having no direct flights between Russia and Ecuador. 

But the idea "lol Snowden he chose an unfree country" is laughable. He's stuck in Russia due to lack of other options, he didn't choose Russia. They just happen to be one of the handful of countries without an extradition treaty willing to resist US pressure. The other option is to come back to the US. Suicide is preferable to that.


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## ExoSkel (Jul 2, 2013)

makeoutparadise said:


> Snowden literally means Snow home


Snow homeski


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## navy (Jul 2, 2013)

What's the  vegas line he makes it to asylum?


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## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

navy said:


> What's the  vegas line he makes it to asylum?



Why don't you ask Nate Silver.


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## ExoSkel (Jul 2, 2013)

Mider T said:


> No bro, DC is a tropical island compared to Russian winters.


Mean temp in Moscow during winter is usually 20 or below degrees. It can get lower down to 14-10 degrees during average low temperature.

DC can get to 20 below zero and even lower, but usually like 12-30s during winter, 

So no. It's not tropical island compared to moscow. Thats just stupid.


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## makeoutparadise (Jul 2, 2013)

Snowden the Plan could have been much simpler tell the reporter to release the recording and his name long after he got asylum or until he had  changed his name and appearance and joined a secluded  monastery in  the alps or Himalayas


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## Chelydra (Jul 2, 2013)

makeoutparadise said:


> Snowden the Plan could have been much simpler tell the reporter to release the recording and his name long after he got asylum or until he had  changed his name and appearance and joined a secluded  monastery in  the alps or Himalayas



Or you know, not release information about United States operations abroad.


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## navy (Jul 2, 2013)

Blue said:


> Why don't you ask Nate Silver.



Already got him working on something else to make me money$.


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## TasteTheDifference (Jul 2, 2013)

I doubt Snowden ever knew anything that the Russians didn't already know via their own espionage, there also isn't any matter of principle on their part given the current regime's human rights record, Putin's past as a KGB operative and macho patriotism; it's pretty much a given that if a member if a Russian intelligence agency pulled a Snowden retribution would be rather harsher than incarceration.  They're definitely out to thumb their nose at the U.S and why not, it seems if the Obama adminstration wants Ed back pretty badly, how many countries other than Russia and China can withstand the diplomatic and economic pressure that could be brought to bear on them without suffering particularly


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## Doge (Jul 2, 2013)

Question is, will Snowden decide to leak Russian secrets and expose their corruption?


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## Megaharrison (Jul 2, 2013)

Hello I'm a crusader of freedom and civil liberties, here is my dear friend Vladimir Putin.


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## Chelydra (Jul 2, 2013)

kresh said:


> Question is, will Snowden decide to leak Russian secrets and expose their corruption?



Nope, its how these guy roll, they care nothing for the corruption in other countries, corruption that puts all of our government's corruption to shame.



Megaharrison said:


> Hello I'm a crusader of freedom and civil liberties, here is my dear friend Vladimir Putin.



And this. And in case people forget, leaking intel on US foreign operations.


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## makeoutparadise (Jul 2, 2013)

And so Snowden here too pussyed out he now doesn't want to go to Russia


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## Mael (Jul 2, 2013)

kresh said:


> Question is, will Snowden decide to leak Russian secrets and expose their corruption?



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah if he has a bona fide death wish.

But I know you were kidding with this question. 



Megaharrison said:


> Hello I'm a crusader of freedom and civil liberties, here is my dear friend Vladimir Putin.



If irony were made of strawberries we'd all be having smoothies right about now.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 2, 2013)

What do people expect him to do? He's completely out of options.


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## Mael (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> What do people expect him to do? He's completely out of options.



Exile to Greenland.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> What do people expect him to do? He's completely out of options.



Stick to his principles, they are all he has.


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## Yachiru (Jul 2, 2013)

According to the NDAA, Obama can hold Snowden indefinitely without access to legal counsel. Who in their right mind would deliberately go back? Although I admit Russia wasn't the best choice, it is still a good one regardless. Putin at least has the nerve to say "niet" to Obama's demands. 

I'm pretty sure that the NSA leak was the tip of the iceberg.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

Yachiru said:


> According to the NDAA, Obama can hold Snowden indefinitely without access to legal counsel. Who in their right mind would deliberately go back? Although I admit Russia wasn't the best choice, it is still a good one regardless. Putin at least has the nerve to say "niet" to Obama's demands.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the NSA leak was the tip of the iceberg.



I honestly don't get how some of you can be so shortsighted. What makes you think Snowden will live any more comfortably under Putin's eye? They aren't going to let him off like that. This has ceased to be a manner of principle and more about defending a cult of personality figure.


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## Mael (Jul 2, 2013)

Actually guys Putin did tell Snowden to keep a lid on it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/video/idUSBRE9610C520130702?videoId=243705385


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## Reznor (Jul 2, 2013)

America needed someone to call it out on some of its shit, but this guy isn't the hero that everyone makes him out to be.


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## Yachiru (Jul 2, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I honestly don't get how some of you can be so shortsighted. What makes you think Snowden will live any more comfortably under Putin's eye? They aren't going to let him off like that. This has ceased to be a manner of principle and more about defending a cult of personality figure.



I wasn't claiming any of that. But out of all countries that exist and could offer him asylum, they'll sooner or later give into the US demands. Russia, however, will not. That doesn't mean his life will be easier in Russia, but at least he won't have to fear extradition and/or abduction by the CIA.

He is no hero, but he did us all a favour by calling out what many of us have suspected for many years now.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

Yachiru said:


> I wasn't claiming any of that. But out of all countries that exist and could offer him asylum, they'll sooner or later give into the US demands. Russia, however, will not. That doesn't mean his life will be easier in Russia, but at least he won't have to fear extradition and/or abduction by the CIA.
> 
> He is no hero, but he did us all a favour by calling out what many of us have suspected for many years now.



His first ones were, the others are questionable. However if people are going to make him out to be a hero, I'd think he'd be held to task which I see more and more he isn't, ex: "fuck principles". Putin doesn't seem to have any interest in letting him do what he wants, and he will likely always have close eyes on him for as long as he remains there.


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## Yachiru (Jul 2, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> His first ones were, the others are questionable. However if people are going to make him out to be a hero, I'd think he'd be held to task which I see more and more he isn't, ex: "fuck principles". Putin doesn't seem to have any interest in letting him do what he wants, and he will likely always have close eyes on him for as long as he remains there.



We don't know what exactly he leaked to the Russians and Chinese... the only way to find out is if he leaked that stuff to Wikileaks, and even then it's questionable. But at least you have to cut him some slack for fleeing, cus that would defeat his efforts to leak more government atrocities. Russia certainly wasn't his choice, and I agree that his purpose (to leak) will be troubled there. 

We should cease with the superlatives (hero or traitor) and just wait for more leaks to surface, either through Wikileaks or directly by Snowden himself.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

Yachiru said:


> We don't know what exactly he leaked to the Russians and Chinese... the only way to find out is if he leaked that stuff to Wikileaks, and even then it's questionable. But at least you have to cut him some slack for fleeing, cus that would defeat his efforts to leak more government atrocities. Russia certainly wasn't his choice, and I agree that his purpose (to leak) will be troubled there.
> 
> We should cease with the superlatives (hero or traitor) and just wait for more leaks to surface, either through Wikileaks or directly by Snowden himself.



He hasn't revealed any atrocity, although he did reveal a clear violation of citizens' constitutional rights. However I see no point in leaking how we conduct business with other nations, and how we gather intelligence on their issues and disputes; that creates entirely unnecessary disruption.

I agree I don't look at him as a hero, and he's not Manning so I don't call him a traitor. However I do question his principles, and I do think without them he is simply a criminal.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 2, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> His first ones were, the others are questionable. However if people are going to make him out to be a hero, I'd think he'd be held to task which I see more and more he isn't, ex: "fuck principles". Putin doesn't seem to have any interest in letting him do what he wants, and he will likely always have close eyes on him for as long as he remains there.



You have a very warped view of what a principle is. Not everyone is willing to throw his life away just to help others.


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## Brotha Yasuji (Jul 2, 2013)

Can you blame him for trying to do everything possible to keep the US from being able to make an example out of him like they're doing to Bradley Manning?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

Brotha Yasuji said:


> Can you blame him for trying to do everything possible to keep the US from being able to make an example out of him like they're doing to Bradley Manning?



Bradley Manning leaked 750,000 documents with no consideration to what they contained. You're only doing a disservice to Snowden to make that comparison. Also yes I can, as anyone should, based on his own words and stated principles; particularly in why he went to Hong Kong in the first place. There comes a point, and it has reached it already, where more good would be done if he faced his trial in the U.S. than going to whatever country will grant him asylum, particularly if they contrast the reasons he went to HK and the principles he wants to stand up for.

This has become about himself, a cult of personality has developed around him that have become no better than government apologists, and his leaks and motive behind them are becoming more questionable.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> You have a very warped view of what a principle is. Not everyone is willing to throw his life away just to help others.



No I don't, if you're willing to turn your back on them or contradict and compromise them for your own interests then they stop being principles. Or rather, they never were in the first place; it was just bravado. Particularly with the main issue he claimed to make the leaks in the first place.

Once you start saying "fuck principles" you really aren't in a place to complain about attempts to detain him.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 2, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> No I don't, if you're willing to turn your back on them or contradict and compromise them for your own interests then they stop being principles. Particularly with the main issue he claimed to make the leaks in the first place.
> 
> Once you start saying "fuck principles" you really aren't in a place to complain about attempts to detain him.



By that definition there's a only a tiny fraction of mankind with any principles whatsoever.

And stop with the "cult of personality" bullshit, it doesn't get any less ludicrous if you repeat it a lot.


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## Esponer (Jul 2, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> But the idea "lol Snowden he chose an unfree country" is laughable. He's stuck in Russia due to lack of other options, he didn't choose Russia. They just happen to be one of the handful of countries without an extradition treaty willing to resist US pressure. The other option is to come back to the US. Suicide is preferable to that.


Yeah, I don't get this idea that a whistleblower has to choose incarceration over asylum in a country that isn't better than the one he left.

This isn't

"I hate the US, the US is awful, Russia is better, I'll go there"

it's

"I love the US (people) so much I'll basically throw my entire life away to do what I think is right by them, and hopefully be able to make a new life for myself? somewhere"

It's a matter of opinion and debate whether the info he's made public is (significantly) damaging to the safety of US citizens, but unless he's giving out such info solely to the Russian government, I don't see any irony in this. And if he is, well, fuck him.


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## Mael (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> By that definition there's a only a tiny fraction of mankind with any principles whatsoever.
> 
> And stop with the "cult of personality" bullshit, it doesn't get any less ludicrous if you repeat it a lot.



Worked wonders with Assange...the whole cult of personality bit.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> By that definition there's a only a tiny fraction of mankind with any principles whatsoever.
> 
> And stop with the "cult of personality" bullshit, it doesn't get any less ludicrous if you repeat it a lot.



He's taken up a huge pedestal, on a very serious issue and if you are ready to excuse whatever he does, particularly in the name of his own preservation then you aren't any better than government apologists and have no place to complain about them. Really, you have no place to complain about the issue related to him either. People have some basic principles, and if everyone thought like you to "fuck principles" the world would be a far less happy place to live in even moreso than it is now. Particularly if pioneers on rights or crucial issues that affect a great deal of people thought that way we would unlikely get anywhere. Wasn't part of the issue in the first place is the U.S. government deciding to "fuck principles"? Consider that. 

It is, it's rapidly becoming that, so I will refer to it as such when I think it is appropriate.


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## Megaharrison (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> What do people expect him to do? He's completely out of options.



In his own words, he's doing what he's doing completely because of ideology and because he loves the freedoms. If that's true, then violating that ideology by defecting to an authoritarian state for his own personal safety is hypocritical. Especially since everyone praises him for putting his safety in danger by leaking in the first place.


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## Goobtachi (Jul 2, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> In his own words, he's doing what he's doing completely because of ideology and because he loves the freedoms. If that's true, then violating that ideology by defecting to an authoritarian state for his own personal safety is hypocritical. Especially since everyone praises him for putting his safety in danger by leaking in the first place.


Laughable...everyone is praising him because he leaked very important piece of info, nobody wants him to put his life in danger or be a martyr...


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 2, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> He's taken up a huge pedestal, on a very serious issue and if you are ready to excuse whatever he does, particularly in the name of his own preservation then you aren't any better than government apologists and have no place to complain about them. Really, you have no place to complain about the issue related to him either. People have some basic principles, and if everyone thought like you to "fuck principles" the world would be a far less happy place to live in even moreso than it is now. Particularly if pioneers on rights or crucial issues that affect a great deal of people thought that way we would unlikely get anywhere.



Pretty much everyone I know shares my opinion on principles, I've yet to meet someone who would actually throw their life away to help others, because those people tend not to live very long.



> Wasn't part of the issue in the first place is the U.S. government deciding to "fuck principles"? Consider that.



And wasn't part of the holocaust Hitler saying "fuck principles"? Seriously, you can apply that stupid logic to anything and everything.

No, the US government has never had any principles (at least not according to your definition), especially since it's not an individual but a group of many individuals who may or may not have principles themselves.



Megaharrison said:


> In his own words, he's doing what he's doing completely because of ideology and because he loves the freedoms. If that's true, then violating that ideology by defecting to an authoritarian state for his own personal safety is hypocritical. Especially since everyone praises him for putting his safety in danger by leaking in the first place.



Why else would have left his life, family, and friends behind and fled the country? If he only cared for himself and had no principles, he'd have kept his mouth shut.



Nobody except you guys is asking Snowden to be a martyr.


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## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

Esponer said:


> it's
> 
> "I love the US (people) so much I'll basically throw my entire life away to do what I think is right by them, and hopefully be able to make a new life for myself? somewhere"



People actually believe this


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Pretty much everyone I know shares my opinion on principles, I've yet to meet someone who would actually throw their life away to help others, because those people tend not to live very long.



That's some pretty questionable company. 



> And wasn't part of the holocaust Hitler saying "fuck principles"? Seriously, you can apply that stupid logic to anything and everything.



It's not stupid at all, it's pretty basic. 



> No, the US government has never had any principles (at least not according to your definition), especially since it's not an individual but a group of many individuals who may or may not have principles themselves.



Individuals who claim to hold principles and work together to uphold them through government. So, my point stands. If we hold a government to task on its stated principles then so should we for an individual; which you are not. 



> Why else would have left his life, family, and friends behind and fled the country? If he only cared for himself and had no principles, he'd have kept his mouth shut.



It would not be the first time a person has taken a task without fully considering its magnitude. Aside from that, the very fact that he will have no life, and has none, would make it more pertinent to face trial than hopping to whatever nation will grant him asylum, particularly ones that contradict his reason for going to Hong Kong in the first place. 



> Nobody except you guys is asking Snowden to be a martyr.



No, people are simply holding him to task, which people like you refuse to do.


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## Goobtachi (Jul 2, 2013)

Hold him to task?  By putting his life in danger...stupid logic if there is one.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 2, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That's some pretty questionable company.



So you know people who would go to prison forever just to show you that the government is spying on you? That's company of questionable sanity.



> It's not stupid at all, it's pretty basic.



No, it really isn't. First you create a definition of "principle" so microscopically small that barely anyone can actually live up to it and then you revert to using "principle" in its regular definition and applying it to the government.



> Individuals who claim to hold principles and work together to uphold them through government. So, my point stands. If we hold a government to task on its stated principles then so should we for an individual; which you are not.



In that case Snowden also claims to hold principles, which apparently means he has principles.



> It would not be the first time a person has taken a task without fully considering its magnitude. Aside from that, the very fact that he will have no life, and has none, would make it more pertinent to face trial than hopping to whatever nation will grant him asylum, particularly ones that contradict his reason for going to Hong Kong in the first place.
> 
> No, people are simply holding him to task, which people like you refuse to do.



Sorry, I hold him to realistic standards. I don't ask "what would Superman do in his situation", I ask "what would I do in his situation?"

If you think you would've acted more ethical in his situation, do tell us what you'd have done.


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## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> So you know people who would go to prison forever just to show you that the government is spying on you? That's company of questionable sanity.



I don't know anyone who would violate confidentiality, trust, and the law to tell people about legal activities they should have already known about, no.


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## Megaharrison (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Why else would have left his life, family, and friends behind and fled the country? If he only cared for himself and had no principles, he'd have kept his mouth shut.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody except you guys is asking Snowden to be a martyr.



You just said he's a martyr by leaving behind all his stuff. So if he's willing to sacrifice so much for ideology, why defect to an authoritarian regime?


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## Goobtachi (Jul 2, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> You just said he's a martyr by leaving behind all his stuff. So if he's willing to sacrifice so much for ideology, why defect to an authoritarian regime?



He never said that...the army did you no good.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 2, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> You just said he's a martyr by leaving behind all his stuff.





			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, m?rtys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, m?rtyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution *and death* for advocating, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause, usually a religious one.



So yeah, I didn't say that at all.



> So if he's willing to sacrifice so much for ideology, why defect to an authoritarian regime?



You mean if he's willing to sacrifice a lot, why not sacrifice a lot more? Sure, that makes sense.


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## Gunners (Jul 2, 2013)

Attempting to go to Russia shows that he is a hypocrite. I don't exactly fault him for running away from America, but his actions are defeated when he is seeking asylum in a country that is worse than the one he sold out.


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## First Tsurugi (Jul 2, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Attempting to go to Russia shows that he is a hypocrite. I don't exactly fault him for running away from America, but his actions are defeated when he is seeking asylum in a country that is worse than the one he sold out.



No it doesn't. It's not his fault that the only countries that won't immediately cave to US pressure happen to be countries with sketchy human rights records.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 2, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Attempting to go to Russia shows that he is a hypocrite. I don't exactly fault him for running away from America, but his actions are defeated when he is seeking asylum in a country that is worse than the one he sold out.



So what country should he have gone to? All the democratic ones have extradition treaties with the US.


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## ExoSkel (Jul 2, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Attempting to go to Russia shows that he is a hypocrite. I don't exactly fault him for running away from America, but his actions are defeated when he is seeking asylum in a country that is worse than the one he sold out.


Then which country should he go to? Keep in mind that most of Asia, Middle Eastern, Africa, and European countries are out of option, as US has rights to extricate from any of the countries from those continents.

Russia and China are the only nations where US can't wave their dick around when it comes to extricating people of either US nationals or foreign nationals.


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## Gunners (Jul 2, 2013)

I don't know and I don't care, the bottom line is if you hold such strong views against your nations actions, you wouldn't accept the help of a nation that's worse.


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## Mansali (Jul 2, 2013)

Gunners said:


> I don't know and I don't care, the bottom line is if you hold such strong views against your nations actions, you wouldn't accept the help of a nation that's worse.



It was a strategic choice. He isn't in love with Russia or anything. Regardless of what he did afterwards his initial actions were still heroic. If Bradley Manning wasn't tortured , perhaps Snowden may have decided to come back to the US. His father laid out a couple of conditions (many of which were available for people like him in the past) for his return. But the government has not agreed to them.

By your standards you should hate the fact that your country has a diplomatic relationship with Saudi Arabia even though it's a dictatorship.

There were American troops in Saudi Arabia. Protecting a dictatorship doesn't sound too democratic now does it? If no one has problems with this, they should not have any problems with Snowden making a strategic decision also.


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## Madara103084 (Jul 2, 2013)

At least he provided  us with information to know that Big Brother is actually really looking. Which is commendable.


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## First Tsurugi (Jul 2, 2013)

Gunners said:


> I don't know and I don't care



Thanks for admitting you don't know shit.



> the bottom line is if you hold such strong views against your nations actions, you wouldn't accept the help of a nation that's worse.



According to what? Snowden seeking asylum in Russia doesn't mean he inherently supports everything their government does.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jul 2, 2013)

He had a list of applications for asylum to 21 countries. He's in Russia because countries like Iceland, France, Germany, etc turned him down. Here is the complete list:



> Austria
> Bolivia
> Brazil
> China
> ...



So no, he didn't seek Russia specifically, he's just there because no better country wants him. The alternative is of course to go back to the US and get the Bradley Manning treatment. Would he even get a trial? I doubt it, not a fair one. Probably some shit military kangaroo court. Suicide would be preferable.


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## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

> Snowden had already withdrawn his asylum request with Russian authorities after President Vladimir Putin said he would have to "stop his work aimed at harming our American partners" if he wanted to stay in the country.



People ask me what it means to be American

I tell 'em, it's triumph. Triumph, triumph, triumph.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 2, 2013)

Blue said:


> People ask me what it means to be American
> 
> I tell 'em, it's triumph. Triumph, triumph, triumph.



That was already in the opening post, why do people keep pretending it's breaking news?


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## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 2, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> That was already in the opening post, why do people keep pretending it's breaking news?



Gotta keep that good ol' jingoism flowing.

It is nearly the 4th after all.


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## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

MbS said:


> Gotta keep that good ol' jingoism flowing.
> 
> It is nearly the 4th after all.



Yes'm

You celebrating mother's day?


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## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2013)

A man in the desert must take such water as he is offered.

He sacrificed his life with the leaks in a fashion. He shouldn't sacrifice his safety too with guantano bay looking down at the end of a barrel.

Since this is the guy that would know the worse american goverment has to offer to him, I can hardly judge the lengths he would go to escape it


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

OK people need to stop exaggerating all the time...he wouldn't be in Guantanomo, he'd be imprisoned on the mainland. Second, the death penalty doesn't apply to him. Not yet at least, what he faces are charges of espionage which can carry a sentence of around 20 years.

This isn't McCarthyism, This isn't Nazism, this isn't the first time surveillance has happened in this country, this isn't even the worst of it, intelligence gathering wasn't made yesterday, and nations, even allies covertly gather intelligence on one another. We have even caught British and Israeli spies in the past in particular.


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## Goobtachi (Jul 2, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> OK people need to stop exaggerating all the time...he wouldn't be in Guantanomo, he'd be imprisoned on the mainland. Second, the death penalty doesn't apply to him. Not yet at least, what he faces are charges of espionage which can carry a sentence of around 20 years.
> 
> This isn't McCarthyism, This isn't Nazism, this isn't the first time surveillance has happened in this country, this isn't even the worst of it, intelligence gathering wasn't made yesterday, and nations, even allies covertly gather intelligence on one another. We have even caught British and Israeli spies in the past in particular.



So you expect him to simply accept to spend 20 years in jail because?


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 2, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> So you expect him to simply accept to spend 20 years in jail because?



When you break the law, you need to be held accountable. He could have gone about this a different way within the law and he chose not to, compounding the issue is also releasing information that was irrelevant to his goal of informing the American public on the government domestic actions.


----------



## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> So you expect him to simply accept to spend 20 years in jail because?



Because... he broke the law? You fucking bet I do.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> So you expect him to simply accept to spend 20 years in jail because?



He should get 20 years in prison because he broke the law. 

Thats how the law works. 

If i take a bat and destroy my Roommates car with it and the police issue a warrant for my arrest. 

I wont get the option of requesting safety from another country. 

Why should he be allowed to escape jail time?


----------



## baconbits (Jul 2, 2013)

Fiona said:


> He should get 20 years in prison because he broke the law.
> 
> Thats how the law works.
> 
> ...



There is no reason.  I think people are conflating the questions of "did you like hearing the info Snowden released" with "does Snowden deserve to be punished?"

I like some of the info being released, but what Snowden did was close to being treason.  He deserves to be punished.

Also, this man is no idealist.  His actions are showing that he has no idea what he stands for other than damaging the interests of the US.


----------



## Pliskin (Jul 2, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> He had a list of applications for asylum to 21 countries. He's in Russia because countries like Iceland, France, Germany, etc turned him down. Here is the complete list:



Well technically speaking Germany did not turn him down, apparently you cannot apply from the embassy. We told him to come to Germany so we can officially turn him down.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jul 2, 2013)

Fiona said:


> He should get 20 years in prison because he broke the law.
> 
> Thats how the law works.
> 
> ...





Blue said:


> Because... he broke the law? You fucking bet I do.





Chelydra said:


> When you break the law, you need to be held accountable. He could have gone about this a different way within the law and he chose not to, compounding the issue is also releasing information that was irrelevant to his goal of informing the American public on the government domestic actions.



Eventhoguh he did something that is generally accepted as being the right thing to do?

Now imagine you were in germany in the late 30s, and Hitler himself told you to kill jews or whatever...someone who got a brain(or a moral) will prbably say no, escape Germany and seek for Asylum in another country(he'll be regarded as a traitor in Germany, but the whole world will take him as hero)...now that's exactly what's happening in this case, but your huge liberal asses can't see it.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Eventhoguh he did something that is generally accepted as being the right thing to do?
> 
> Now imagine you were in germany in the late 30s, and Hitler himself told you to kill jews or whatever...someone who got a brain(or a moral) will prbably say no, escape Germany and seek for Asylum in another country(he'll be regarded as a traitor in Germany, but the whole world will take him as hero)...now that's exactly what's happening in this case, but your huge liberal asses can't see it.



But thats NOT the case 

He broke the law and deserves to be sent to prison. The law is the law. 

Regardless of how right he felt when he did it. 

People could lose there lives over leaked information. 

So yes he deserves to go to prison


----------



## Goobtachi (Jul 2, 2013)

Fiona said:


> But thats NOT the case
> 
> He broke the law and deserves to be sent to prison. The law is the law.
> 
> ...



Do you think someone who'd have said no to Hitler at the time wouldn't have broken the law?(i'm using extreme examples to make it easier for you to get the point)

And i (and probably many others)  sure don't want someone who informed the world about the stupid shit that's happening in the US to be sent in prison, "eventhough he broke the law"...


----------



## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

Achievement unlocked: Accused of being a liberal

Well, I guess I am, at that.

Anyway you just compared leaking information about a legal, unclassified activity to genocide. Please inquire about having your account deleted.


----------



## Mael (Jul 2, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Do you think someone who'd have said no to Hitler at the time wouldn't have broken the law?(i'm using extreme examples to make it easier for you to get the point)
> 
> And i (and probably many others)  sure don't want someone who informed the world about the stupid shit that's happening in the US to be sent in prison.



Godwin's Law and Bradley Manning.

Good night.


----------



## Madara103084 (Jul 2, 2013)

If he is doing it for the well being of the American populace and being informed of the government breaking the constitution then he is a hero in my eyes, if he was doing it for monetary gain, than he is a criminal. One man's villain could be another hero.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 2, 2013)

> The law is the law.


That's a terrible precedent to set.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Do you think someone who'd have said no to Hitler at the time wouldn't have broken the law?(i'm using extreme examples to make it easier for you to get the point)



Im using the actual facts about the context of the situation to make it easier for you to get the point, but i guess we are both shit out of luck


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2013)

Didn't bradley manning get sent to solitary confinement for almost a year, in a cramped confinement in which he was only allowed to move for like, one hour every day at lunch


Before the proceedings for his trial even began?

Who wouldn't run away from that?


----------



## Mansali (Jul 2, 2013)

Snowden did a good thing by withdrawing his asylum request to Russia. It shows that he is principled and is not going to play ball with Putin. 

*I think he should come back if *the US agrees to treat him the same way they treated Daniel Ellsberg. He should be able to make his case to the American people.


----------



## superattackpea (Jul 2, 2013)

First I'd just like to say

His name is Edward Snowden 

Second, how can what he's done endanger someone's life? The government is keeping track of your activity (you, the person reading this, specifically), indefinitely, with no suspision what so ever of you being  a threat to the country. And Snowmen told us about this. This endangers lives in the same manner having the knowledge of how to shoot a gun endangers lives.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 2, 2013)

superattackpea said:


> First I'd just like to say
> 
> His name is Edward Snowden
> 
> Second, how can what he's done endanger someone's life? The government is keeping track of your activity (you, the person reading this, specifically), indefinitely, with no suspision what so ever of you being  a threat to the country. And Snowmen told us about this. This endangers lives in the same manner having the knowledge of how to shoot a gun endangers lives.


You do realize that the government has a LOT of people under their protection at home and abroad, right? Edward Snowden leaked information about them out.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 2, 2013)

No, that was Manning. Snowden has released a few things on matters separate from NSA surveillance such as surveillance of other western citizens as well; but as of recent he is releasing how we conduct relations with foreign powers, which doesn't serve to do anything but distract and cause disruption to issues such intelligence gathering methods were put in place to understand.


----------



## Mansali (Jul 2, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize that the government has a LOT of people under their protection at home and abroad, right? Edward Snowden leaked information about them out.



Why talk about this when you have no idea what you are even talking about to begin with. I urge you to read about what he actually leaked.

Thanks Mega for cleaning up this thread XD


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Jul 2, 2013)

how convenient a pretense laws are for obama. 

'we want him because he broke the law not because hes got a load of dirt on the corrupt shit I do'


----------



## mlc818 (Jul 2, 2013)

I would be entirely fine with Snowden coming back to face trial, as long as all government officials and employees who have participated in unconstitutional actions are also tried.  I think the American people would be quick to forgive and acquit Snowden for his leaks, once they saw that hundreds of top officials and thousands of government and military employees are guilty of far worse crimes, which Snowden only sought to expose and prevent.

Snowden would be a fool to return to the US, though, because they won't make the mistake they made with Ellsberg again.  And the treatment of Manning, especially, indicates that the US is not above illegally imprisoning and torturing even their own citizens.  (also the illegal assassinations of Awlaki and his completely innocent son, both US citizens)  The saddest lesson from all this is that there is no remaining Western democracy which will stand up to immoral or unlawful actions from the US; truly a shameful time when Western dissidents can only flee to countries like Russia and China, since no other country, regardless of their stated principles, is willing to stand up to US threats.


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 2, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Eventhoguh he did something that is generally accepted as being the right thing to do?
> 
> -snip-.



Releasing details on international operations is NEVER the right thing to do! How many times do I have to say that? *Unless* its *abu greib level shit* the the American public has *NO* right to know what's going on until *long* after its done. If some of the shit that we did to the soviet piplines were leaked to the press there would have been war.(They were ready for it in the 1980s due to Regan and the Able Archer shit, hell they almost launched nukes at us because one of their satellites triggered a launch warning due to the sunlight reflecting off clouds, news of the pipeline sabotage at this time would have set the soviets off.)

I have not once stated that he should have never leaked the info on the NSA ops spying on US citizens. However releasing info to foreign countries on our methods of spying on them, or the fact we are spying on them is wrong. He deserves that espionage charge easily just for that alone.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 2, 2013)

> Unless its abu greib level shit



The government spying on its own citizens and going against the constitution is at that level.


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 2, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> The government spying on its own citizens and going against the constitution is at that level.



Reread my entire post. I believe I had already covered that in sufficient detail....


----------



## Mider T (Jul 3, 2013)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> how convenient a pretense laws are for obama.
> 
> 'we want him because he broke the law not because hes got a load of dirt on the corrupt shit I do'



Obama isn't corrupt


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

> Informs you about the government spying on you
> You say you have no right of knowing what your govermnent is going
> Want to have the guy who released that information in jail, even if what he did is right just because "he broke the law and the law is the law"

Oh_you.jpg


----------



## Saishin (Jul 3, 2013)

*Snowden case: Bolivia condemns jet 'aggression'*



> Bolivia has accused European countries of an "act of aggression" for refusing to allow its presidential jet into their airspace, amid suggestions US fugitive Edward Snowden was on board.
> 
> Bolivia said France, Portugal, Spain and Italy had blocked the plane from flying over their territory.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23158242


----------



## Saishin (Jul 3, 2013)

> *Bolivian president refused landing rights by Portugal*
> 
> The Bolivian government has held an emergency meeting and said it was asking for an urgent meeting of the Union of South American Nations (Unasur), after Portugal denied landing rights to President Evo Morales as it suspected whistle-blower Edward Snowden was on board his plane.
> 
> ...







> *Bolivian ambassador to Italy denounces France, Portugal*
> 
> 'Denying airspace to Morales a treaty violation'
> 
> (ANSA) - Rome, July 3 - Bolivia's ambassador to Italy said Bolivia will press charges in the international community against France and Portugal for denying President Evo Morales access to their airspace on Wednesday. "We will bring (the case) before the international community on the grounds of unfriendly behavior and clear aggression," said Antolin Ayaviri Gomez, calling the instance a "violation of the Vienna Convention". Bolivia's defence minister said earlier Wednesday that Italy too had denied the president's aircraft passage in its skies amid suspicion it was smuggling US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden out of the Moscow airport, where he has been holed up since the US revoked his passport last month for revealing a wide-ranging, secret spying program on telephones and the Internet. The ambassador said that he "could not confirm" whether Italy was also involved, though qualified sources told ANSA that it was.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Unbelievable how low so many countries would sink just to suck Obama's cock.


----------



## Stunna (Jul 3, 2013)

Run Eddy, run.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Unbelievable how low so many countries would sink just to suck Obama's cock.



Triumph, triumph, triumph.


----------



## heavy_rasengan (Jul 3, 2013)

lol @ people posting stupid shit like "the law is the law". A law only goes as far as the merit behind its creation. Snowden definitely does not deserve this type of persecution for the actions that he took no matter what way you look at it.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

You guys think that his only leaks were the initial ones on NSA surveillance of citizens. His other ones have been highly questionable, and one good deed doesn't excuse a list of other questionable ones.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Unbelievable how low so many countries would sink just to suck Obama's cock.



It's called 'international cooperation' genius. You guys are at fault for putting Snowden on a pedestal anyways, and then turning around to be no different from the government apologists you condemn. He's done more than just leak that citizens were being monitored now, many of his leaks have been unnecessary.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It's called 'international cooperation' genius.



Uh-huh, effectively barring the fucking president of a sovereign nation from transatlantic flights is totally international cooperation and not just bullying.



> You guys are at fault for putting Snowden on a pedestal anyways, and then turning around to be no different from the government apologists you condemn. He's done more than just leak that citizens were being monitored now, many of his leaks have been unnecessary.



And the usual, unrelated bullshit. Expected nothing less from you.


----------



## Linkdarkside (Jul 3, 2013)

Bolivia is a shit nation his presidency is worth nothing.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You guys think that his only leaks were the initial ones on NSA surveillance of citizens. His other ones have been highly questionable, and one good deed doesn't excuse a list of other questionable ones.



And you think people give a shit. So what if he leaked information about America spying not just on its citizens but on countries around the planet? Unless you're saying that you support America's right to spy on everyone else, there's really no reason to object to any of his leaks.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jul 3, 2013)

Linkdarkside said:


> *Portugal* is a shit nation his presidency is worth nothing.


Fixed for ya, they'll go bankrupt in no time...


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Uh-huh, effectively barring the fucking president of a sovereign nation from transatlantic flights is totally international cooperation and not just bullying.



Snowden has gone beyond simply revealing monitoring of citizens, he's disrupting international relations, of course other countries would eventually cooperate in his detainment. Particularly considering where it is rumored Snowden's final destination will be. 



> And the usual, unrelated bullshit. Expected nothing less from you.



It's about Snowden genius, which is why the nations are doing this in the first place.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> And you think people give a shit. So what if he leaked information about America spying not just on its citizens but on countries around the planet? Unless you're saying that you support America's right to spy on everyone else, there's really no reason to object to any of his leaks.



If people had half a brain and any idea about international relations they would. You'd have to be a complete idiot to not at least think that countries regardless of allegiance or alliance, covertly gather intelligence on one another for a multitude of reasons. Some of which are not as nefarious as people like to make them out to be. Considering he has pretty much earned ire of nations, it's more than evident he's only served to disrupt their relations with one another. As his leaks evidently have. It is absolutely moronic the idea of nations to be completely transparent with one another, we aren't talking about citizens anymore but entire foreign powers.

Like I said though, a lot of you guys have become no better than one that would excuse the NSA surveillance of citizens in the first place. You're ready to excuse anything Snowden does.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 3, 2013)

Blue said:


> Triumph, triumph, triumph.



Blue could you make a Snowden Mega-thread and condense these threads please?


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

> Like I said though, a lot of you guys have become no better than one that would excuse the NSA surveillance of citizens in the first place. You're ready to excuse anything Snowden does.



That's some insane troll logic right there


----------



## navy (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Unbelievable how low so many countries would sink just to suck Obama's cock.



Regardless of what you think of  Snowden personally, he is a fugitive and violated the law. This  is a fact. We can discuss how heroic and noble he is another time. I actually dont mind what he did.

Now  tell me..why on earth would another country want to help a fugitive from the USA? Is it really worth it? No. His ass will probably be back in the USA sooner or later. We can discuss his fate then.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

Shut up Bolivia, nobody gives a fuck about you


----------



## Mansali (Jul 3, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Shut up Bolivia, nobody gives a fuck about you



Just because you don't, doesn't mean everyone else feels the same way.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Snowden has gone beyond simply revealing monitoring of citizens, he's disrupting international relations, of course other countries would eventually cooperate in his detainment. Particularly considering where it is rumored Snowden's final destination will be.
> 
> If people had half a brain and any idea about international relations they would. You'd have to be a complete idiot to not at least think that countries regardless of allegiance or alliance, covertly gather intelligence on one another for a multitude of reasons. Some of which are not as nefarious as people like to make them out to be. Considering he has pretty much earned ire of nations, it's more than evident he's only served to disrupt their relations with one another. As his leaks evidently have. It is absolutely moronic the idea of nations to be completely transparent with one another, we aren't talking about citizens anymore but entire foreign powers.



So the US spies indiscriminately on friend and foe, but the guy who reveals it is the one disrupting international relations? 

If I take a shit in the mail box of my friend every day and one day someone tells him that it was me, is the guy that told him disrupting relations between me and my friend?



Seto Kaiba said:


> Like I said though, a lot of you guys have become no better than one that would excuse the NSA surveillance of citizens in the first place. You're ready to excuse anything Snowden does.



And like I said, you're talking bullshit again. The US does something wrong, someone exposes that they're doing something wrong and then that person is guilty of the wrong he exposed? No, not buying that.



navy said:


> Regardless of what you think of  Snowden personally, he is a fugitive and violated the law. This  is a fact. We can discuss how heroic and noble he is another time. I actually dont mind what he did.




Regardless of what you think of Snowden personally, this was an aircraft carrying the democratically elected president of a sovereign nation with regular, diplomatic ties to all EU members. Even if for whatever reason they thought the plane was intent on carrying Snowden, they could have refused it passage on the way back. As it stands, they refused to let the Bolivian president passage for no reason whatsoever.



> Now  tell me..why on earth would another country want to help a fugitive from the USA? Is it really worth it? No. His ass will probably be back in the USA sooner or later. We can discuss his fate then.



For the same reason someone would take in political refugees from other countries, I assume.

But now you tell me, what evidence do you have that they wanted to pick up Snowden?


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

The lol is the lol, seriously guys 

I really don't get this mentality and it really seems to be so deeply ingrained in US population, which is why some people see nothing wrong with having a 18 year old guy arrested for having sex with her 17 year old girlfriend. Because "He broke the law."

Are you by any chance since childhood taught that the no matter how stupid it is, no matter the reasons and no matter if your actions were good, bad or neutral, just because you break the law you have to go to prison?

I facepalm so much about seeing the situation, according to the polls, okay the majority thinks (it was a majority by a small margin though) what snowden did is the right thing. Yet the same majority according to the polls thinks he should face criminal charges...... am I the only one who seriously don't see how hillarious is this?

> You got informed that the government is spying on you and other nations including allies.
> You think what he did is right.
> Yet you think that because he broke the law, regardless is what he did is right, he should be imprisoned.

And this is people who think he did the right think, I am not even posting about those who think he did the wrong thing by informing US spy on its own citizens, press and allied nations.



You are aware where this kind of thinking and law fapping is going to get you, right guys? The only thing you are going to accomplish with this is that whistleblowers will reduces if not outright cease to exist.

After all, why should I reveal the people information about what the government is doing on them, let alone other nations if they are going to see me as the bad guy because of informing them and even if they do think that I am doing the right think, the majority thinks I should be facing criminal charges because the law is supreme for them?


----------



## Pliskin (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> The lol is the lol, seriously guys
> 
> I really don't get this mentality and it really seems to be so deeply ingrained in US population, which is why some people see nothing wrong with having a 18 year old guy arrested for having sex with her 17 year old girlfriend. Because "He broke the law."



[YOUTUBE]jnNGIFI36bw[/YOUTUBE]


*Spoiler*: __ 



You have cancer now.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 3, 2013)

baconbits said:


> There is no reason.  I think people are conflating the questions of "did you like hearing the info Snowden released" with "does Snowden deserve to be punished?"
> 
> I like some of the info being released, but what Snowden did was close to being treason.  He deserves to be punished.
> 
> Also, this man is no idealist.  His actions are showing that he has no idea what he stands for other than damaging the interests of the US.


I agree with most of this.

The information that Snowden released give us a lot of reason to mistrust the USA now, and why I currently oppose some of the measures to keep a tighter lid.

But at the same time, Snowden was not a hero anymore than a terrorist that blows up a building that a rapist happened to be in. The benefits of knowing that the US is taken shady measures is good to have, but that is simply a benefit in the "blast radius" of treasonous action.

I'm an apologist for neither. Snowden should get jail time, the US doesn't need to crack down on everyone more.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

Reznor said:


> The information that Snowden released give us a lot of reason to mistrust the USA



This is because the US took measures which made people not trust it. Snowden simply revealed that.

This is like if a girlfriend is spying on my cellphone texts and someone reveals that. Who is the one that is wrong my girlfriend or the guy that exposed her?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Reznor said:


> But at the same time, Snowden was not a hero anymore than a terrorist that blows up a building that a rapist happened to be in. The benefits of knowing that the US is taken shady measures is good to have, but that is simply a benefit in the "blast radius" of treasonous action.
> 
> I'm an apologist for neither. Snowden should get jail time, the US doesn't need to crack down on everyone more.



wat

So you're saying Snowden just leaked a bunch of shit for lulz and there happened to be relevant information about the US administration doing reprehensible shit? What exactly was treasonous about exposing them?


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> wat
> 
> So you're saying Snowden just leaked a bunch of shit for lulz and there happened to be relevant information about the US administration doing reprehensible shit? What exactly was treasonous about exposing them?



Apparently the US has the right to spy on other nations and should not be exposed for that.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> Apparently the US has the right to spy on other nations and should not be exposed for that.


...you do know that espionage and spying is _crucial_ on the world's stage, Orochibuto? And that because of it, the Cold War didn't erupt into World War III, right?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

All nations spy on each other, which is something you guys don't seem to realize. There is a necessity in covert intelligence operations. 



Saufsoldat said:


> So the US spies indiscriminately on friend and foe, but the guy who reveals it is the one disrupting international relations?
> 
> If I take a shit in the mail box of my friend every day and one day someone tells him that it was me, is the guy that told him disrupting relations between me and my friend?



Moronic comparison. Also, they are allies, that is an important distinction to consider. As I told you, to alleviate some of that ignorance, the purposes for gathering intelligence on these countries are not always nefarious. 

Covert doesn't necessarily mean it is done out of ill-intent. 



> And like I said, you're talking bullshit again. The US does something wrong, someone exposes that they're doing something wrong and then that person is guilty of the wrong he exposed? No, not buying that.



Surveillance of citizens was rightly exposed as it should have been. How we gather intelligence on other nations is not, it's completely unnecessary. Because how we gather intelligence is often how we foster better relations with them, or how we understand their inner workings and conflicts to better resolve them. 

You don't buy it because you won't accept any wrongdoing on his part.


----------



## Rawri (Jul 3, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Portugal is a shit nation



How kind of you.


The whole Bolivian situation is embarassing. Denied landing to a president because Snowden _might_ be on the plane? *MIGHT*? Even if he actually _was_ on the plane (no idea about that), we should have given them permission to land. Bowing to the demands of a country who've just been accused of spying on the Union we are part of makes me extremely angry. How low can we get? smh
Expected more from France as well.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> All nations spy on each other, which is something you guys don't seem to realize. There is a necessity in covert intelligence operations.



Not all of them, no. But those that do have no right to complain when their spying is discovered. They have the right to apologize and pretend that they're sorry before rebuilding their spy network. But acting like what they did was okay is just insanely low and it speaks volumes that you would defend such bullshit.



> Moronic comparison. Also, they are allies, that is an important distinction to consider. As I told you, to alleviate some of that ignorance, the purposes for gathering intelligence on these countries are not always nefarious.
> 
> Covert doesn't necessarily mean it is done out of ill-intent.



Fair enough, a turd in the mailbox is something you notice. So how about a camera in someone's shower? They're being watched, I jack off and nobody is hurt. Until the person I spy on finds out that is. Should I then say it's the fault of the person that exposed me or should I admit that what I did was wrong?

As for the "non-nefarious" intelligence gathering: If they're doing nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide. If their spying on allies was benevolent in nature, why not just ask those allies for the information or tell them that their wires are being tapped? Were they conducting social experiments in the name of science that required the test subjects to remain ignorant? Because I can't think of any other non-nefarious reason that would require the US to spy on allies without their knowledge or consent.



> Surveillance of citizens was rightly exposed as it should have been. How we gather intelligence on other nations is not, it's completely unnecessary.



That's you opinion. A shitty, hypocritical opinion, but I doubt I can change it. If you think the US has the right to spy on every human being in existence, *except* its own citizens, then that's just what you believe.



> You don't buy it because you won't accept any wrongdoing on his part.





Repeating the same lie a dozen times doesn't make it any more true.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Rawri said:


> The whole Bolivian situation is embarassing. Denied landing to a president because Snowden _might_ be on the plane? *MIGHT*? Even if he actually _was_ on the plane (no idea about that), we should have given them permission to land. Bowing to the demands of a country who've just been accused of spying on the Union we are part of makes me extremely angry. How low can we get? smh
> Expected more from France as well.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Not all of them, no. But those that do have no right to complain when their spying is discovered. They have the right to apologize and pretend that they're sorry before rebuilding their spy network. But acting like what they did was okay is just insanely low and it speaks volumes that you would defend such bullshit.



Those that don't are usually the ones that simply don't have the means, and it's something that has been revealed before. So this acting like it's something new is something I find born of extreme ignorance of how nations conduct business with one another. 

So you'd rather I pretend to be outraged rather than just tell you this is what nations do to one another since, probably the start of civilization? I know it's a reality and a necessity, and obviously they do to considering this has something that's been going on for centuries. I don't think one who says "fuck principles" should be saying anything at all to me though.



> Fair enough, a turd in the mailbox is something you notice. So how about a camera in someone's shower? They're being watched, I jack off and nobody is hurt. Until the person I spy on finds out that is. Should I then say it's the fault of the person that exposed me or should I admit that what I did was wrong?



Still a stupid comparison. 



> As for the "non-nefarious" intelligence gathering: If they're doing nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide. If their spying on allies was benevolent in nature, why not just ask those allies for the information or tell them that their wires are being tapped? Were they conducting social experiments in the name of science that required the test subjects to remain ignorant? Because I can't think of any other non-nefarious reason that would require the US to spy on allies without their knowledge or consent.



I think this is exactly the problem with some of you guys. You don't know anything about international relations. 

Do you not understand every nation has their secrets, even allied nations don't tell each other everything, or are reluctant to. Even allied nations spy on each other, of which we ourselves have caught in the past, when it comes to developments in military capability or oddly enough, how such nations gather intelligence in the first place and underlying motives or causes in regards to how nations deal with one another most notably. Under-the-table deals, such as imports to Iran...or something of the sort. Allies are not friends necessarily. 



> That's you opinion. A shitty, hypocritical opinion, but I doubt I can change it. If you think the US has the right to spy on every human being in existence, *except* its own citizens, then that's just what you believe.



Except I stated foreign powers at the beginning of the thread, but good job on lacking any reading comprehension. 



> Repeating the same lie a dozen times doesn't make it any more true.



But repeating the truth only reinforces the point. You aren't going to accept or acknowledge any wrongdoing on his part.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...you do know that espionage and spying is _crucial_ on the world's stage, Orochibuto? And that because of it, the Cold War didn't erupt into World War III, right?



It is a necessary evil then. However doesn't make it good, if anything then its like a game them, you know spying is bad, is it necessary?

Okay, but if you get caught don't bitch about it, if you are going to play a dirty albeit necessary game then don't bitch when you the ball is not in your hands and try to beat the shit out of the one that took the ball away from you.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> This is because the US took measures which made people not trust it. Snowden simply revealed that.
> 
> This is like if a girlfriend is spying on my cellphone texts and someone reveals that. Who is the one that is wrong my girlfriend or the guy that exposed her?


 How did your guy know that she was spying on your texts? If he was spying on her, they are both in the wrong here.

Snowden didn't "simply" reveal that. There are other ramifications too, and I don't think you have grounds for him doing this out of heroism.



Saufsoldat said:


> wat
> 
> So you're saying Snowden just leaked a bunch of shit for lulz and there happened to be relevant information about the US administration doing reprehensible shit? What exactly was treasonous about exposing them?


 Yes.
The treason part.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> It is a necessary evil then. However doesn't make it good, if anything then its like a game them, you know spying is bad, is it necessary?
> 
> Okay, but if you get caught don't bitch about it, if you are going to play a dirty albeit necessary game then don't bitch when you the ball is not in your hands and try to beat the shit out of the one that took the ball away from you.



How long have some of you people been alive? Seriously.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

Oh Seto, your allies include a p*d*p**** and Blue. You should really rethink your life.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...you do know that espionage and spying is _crucial_ on the world's stage, Orochibuto? And that because of it, the Cold War didn't erupt into World War III, right?



Okay one more thing, perhaps it is okay for you US citizens. But sorry Saiya, but I will have to this time soundly and utterly disagree with you.

I am not a US citizen and I am not going to say "It is right if US spy on my country", are you proposing or saying I should concede that it is okay if US spy on my country? Sorry I can't agree to that, necessary or not.


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 3, 2013)

Seito knows what he is talking about.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Oh Seto, your allies include a p*d*p**** and Blue. You should really rethink your life.



Ruseman

Stop trying to ruse me


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Those that don't are usually the ones that simply don't have the means, and it's something that has been revealed before. So this acting like it's something new is something I find born of extreme ignorance of how nations conduct business with one another.
> 
> So you'd rather I pretend to be outraged rather than just tell you this is what nations do to one another since, probably the start of civilization? I know it's a reality and a necessity, and obviously they do to considering this has something that's been going on for centuries.



So we shouldn't be outraged? We should accept the US spying on us and do nothing about it, not even complain? I guess you don't care since apparently it's wrong for America to spy on you but the same people spying on me is perfectly fine in your book. Can you say hypocrit?



> I don't think one who says "fuck principles" should be saying anything at all to me though.



I don't think the one that doesn't even know the meaning of the word "principle" should lecture me on principles.



> Still a stupid comparison.



Perfectly accurate comparison, actually. Would it be more to your liking if I installed cameras in some foreign girl's shower? Apparently it's all fair game once it crosses state lines.



> I think this is exactly the problem with some of you guys. You don't know anything about international relations.
> 
> Do you not understand every nation has their secrets, even allied nations don't tell each other everything, or are reluctant to. Even allied nations spy on each other, of which we ourselves have caught in the past, when it comes to developments in military capability or oddly enough, how such nations gather intelligence in the first place and underlying motives or causes in regards to how nations deal with one another most notably. Under-the-table deals, such as imports to Iran...or something of the sort. Allies are not friends necessarily.



"But mommy, all the other kids threw rocks at the cars, too!"



> Except I stated foreign powers at the beginning of the thread, but good job on lacking any reading comprehension.



Sorry, I guess it took me a while to catch on to your extremely hypocritical, jingoistic views.



> But repeating the truth only reinforces the point. You aren't going to accept or acknowledge any wrongdoing on his part.



Because thus far he's done nothing wrong. Call me when he hurts or shames someone innocent, not an administration that's been spying on innocent people around the globe.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> It is a necessary evil then. However doesn't make it good, if anything then its like a game them, you know spying is bad, is it necessary?
> 
> Okay, but if you get caught don't bitch about it, if you are going to play a dirty albeit necessary game then don't bitch when you the ball is not in your hands and try to beat the shit out of the one that took the ball away from you.


Dude, spying _saved the fucking world in the Cold War._ It was due to spying that the USSR and USA would know each other's hands beforehand and didn't make any moves that would destroy the world. Its not even a necessary evil, its a crucial, good force in the world in the long run.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude, spying _saved the fucking world in the Cold War._ It was due to spying that the USSR and USA would know each other's hands beforehand and didn't make any moves that would destroy the world. Its not even a necessary evil, its a crucial, good force in the world in the long run.



Even if we agree to that (for the record: I don't) all you're doing is making a point for spying on enemies, hostile countries. None of this even begins to justify spying on allies or civilians in general.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

> Dude, spying saved the fucking world in the Cold War.



Good, now what does that have to do with the current situation ?
This ain't the cold war , boy.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> Okay one more thing, perhaps it is okay for you US citizens. But sorry Saiya, but I will have to this time soundly and utterly disagree with you.
> 
> I am not a US citizen and I am not going to say "It is right if US spy on my country", are you proposing or saying I should concede that it is okay if US spy on my country? Sorry I can't agree to that, necessary or not.


We do have home grown terrorists. After the bombing in Boston, it is still a necessary thing to stop these bastards in their tracks Orochibuto.

Orochibuto, if Mexico was spying on the drug lords that are tearing your country apart currently when they were weak, wouldn't you say that its a good thing if their efforts managed to stop them before they rose to such a prominent level now?


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 3, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Good, now what does that have to do with the current situation ?
> This ain't the cold war , boy.



Yeah the situation is worse. A lot more hostile nations out there now and with China's antics a new cold war is starting up.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> So we shouldn't be outraged? We should accept the US spying on us and do nothing about it, not even complain? I guess you don't care since apparently it's wrong for America to spy on you but the same people spying on me is perfectly fine in your book. Can you say hypocrit?



Your nation's government will likely beef up their securities, and re-organize how they themselves gather intelligence and classify information. Of course they are going to complain, like they're doing now, and as is happening now things will likely go back to business as usual because all parties realize this is a reality of international relations. 

'hypocrit' 

Also, the governments not the people. As I laid out in my initial post. 



> I don't think the one that doesn't even know the meaning of the word "principle" should lecture me on principles.



Well saying 'fuck principles' would strongly imply not having any at all. 



> Perfectly accurate comparison, actually. Would it be more to your liking if I installed cameras in some foreign girl's shower? Apparently it's all fair game once it crosses state lines.



Nope, still shitty. 



> "But mommy, all the other kids threw rocks at the cars, too!"



I can see this is all going over your head. 



> Sorry, I guess it took me a while to catch on to your extremely hypocritical, jingoistic views.



That's not jingoistic. Don't exaggerate. I just told you other nations, and even our allies do it too, to ourselves even. It's a necessity. 



> Because thus far he's done nothing wrong. Call me when he hurts or shames someone innocent, not an administration that's been spying on innocent people around the globe.



Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Even if we agree to that (for the record: I don't) all you're doing is making a point for spying on enemies, hostile countries. None of this even begins to justify spying on allies or civilians in general.


Allies who are doing some pretty screwed up things right now: giving missile grade nuclear materials to Iran right now. And civilians-which civilians and why? We don't even get the 'why' all you're doing is attacking 'civilians are spied on! How horrid!' You don't even want the 'why' ultimately since you've been on an anti-US tirade for the past few days.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Allies who are doing some pretty screwed up things right now: giving missile grade nuclear materials to Iran right now. And civilians-which civilians and why? We don't even get the 'why' all you're doing is attacking 'civilians are spied on! How horrid!' You don't even want the 'why' ultimately since you've been on an anti-US tirade for the past few days.



You guys have been arming the saudis for ages, what's your point ?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 3, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> You guys have been arming the saudis for ages, what's your point ?


Saudi Arabia hasn't vowed to destroy a nation which only wants peace like Iran has, Elim Rawne. That's the difference. And we don't give them _nuclear weapons_ or the means to create them. So your 'point' is completely null.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 3, 2013)

America builds bases around Russia. "It's cool man, we just need to keep China in check."
Russia builds bases near America. "GET OUT OF HERE, RUSSIA  MONROE DOCTRINE FIST!"


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Saudi Arabia hasn't vowed to destroy a nation which only wants peace like Iran has, Elim Rawne. That's the difference. And we don't give them _nuclear weapons_ or the means to create them. So your 'point' is completely null.



No, they only arm nations like Yemen, who in turn arm groups like AQ. Now zip it, toady


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> We do have home grown terrorists. After the bombing in Boston, it is still a necessary thing to stop these bastards in their tracks Orochibuto.



Even if it means spying on your own citizens?

" The man who would choose security over freedom deserves neither"



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Orochibuto, if Mexico was spying on the drug lords that are tearing your country apart currently when they were weak, wouldn't you say that its a good thing if their efforts managed to stop them before they rose to such a prominent level now?



This can't be done because the government is OWNED by the drug lords, our current president Enrique Pe?a Nieto was elected agaisnt the majority and had support from the media which has largely been pro-state, like when they hid the slaughter in 1968 for example. The druglords and Televisa placed the current government sadly, so I doubt the government would spy on its masters.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Saudi Arabia hasn't vowed to destroy a nation which only wants peace like Iran has, Elim Rawne. That's the difference. And we don't give them _nuclear weapons_ or the means to create them. So your 'point' is completely null.



Saudi Arabia is an untrustworthy nation, Arabian nationals, if not the government have been backing a lot of anti-Israeli actions and it was many Arabian nationals that were involved in 9/11. Though they were technically affiliated with Al Qaida which acted at behest of the Taliban in Afghanistan, it was still very suspicious the numbers that were from Arabia. Their only relevance atm, is that we have a base on the peninsula, they are clearly looking to become a nuclear power in the ME, and their oil exports. Their regime is despotic, but if it ever fell into chaos then that will inevitably spread like wildfire past its borders. Some of the reasons are similar to why nations put up with Pakistan.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Your nation's government will likely beef up their securities, and re-organize how they themselves gather intelligence and classify information. Of course they are going to complain, like they're doing now, and as is happening now things will likely go back to business as usual because all parties realize this is a reality of international relations.
> 
> 'hypocrit'
> 
> Also, the governments not the people. As I laid out in my initial post.



They're complaining? Thus far the silence has been deafening and instead of thanking the man that exposed America's and the UK's reprehensible actions they do their best to prevent him from getting to safety.



> Well saying 'fuck principles' would strongly imply not having any at all.



Not according to your inane definition, no.



> Nope, still shitty.



And the reason you never bother explaining why you mislike the analogy is of course that you can't. Hypocrites gonna hypo.



> I can see this is all going over your head.



No, I can see you having a cynical, jingoistic worldview in which you country can spy on everyone and everything (except yourself of course) and when exposed, your best excuse is "well, everyone's doing it" without offering any evidence whatsoever to support your claim.



> That's not jingoistic. Don't exaggerate. I just told you other nations, and even our allies do it too, to ourselves even. It's a necessity.



No, they don't. The UK spied on everyone. They did even worse shit than the US with TEMPORA, but guess what? They shared all that intel with the US.



> Thanks for proving my point.



Okay, you got me. I'll never admit Snowden did something wrong and there's totally a cult of personality thing going on.

How about that cult of personality around Stephen Hawking then? Nobody will admit that he deserves to go to prison for all he's done, people just pretend he did nothing wrong.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Allies who are doing some pretty screwed up things right now: giving missile grade nuclear materials to Iran right now. And civilians-which civilians and why? We don't even get the 'why' all you're doing is attacking 'civilians are spied on! How horrid!' You don't even want the 'why' ultimately since you've been on an anti-US tirade for the past few days.



Holy fucking shit sandwich, please just stop.

Firstly, no US ally has given any nuclear material to Iran. What happened is that *some ores* which could *potentially *be used to build *missiles* (regular missiles, nothing nuclear until you add a warhead) have been sold by *corporations, not governments*. So if you're quite done embarrassing yourself, can the adults get back to their conversations?

And yes, it is horrid that the US spies on me. I am politically active to prevent my own government from spying on my and thus far we've successfully blocked all such initiatives. So do you really think I'll just let the US do what I actively prevent my own government from doing without complaining?

I'm probably one of the most pro-US Europeans here, but I won't pretend that what they're doing is alright just to save some jingoists the embarrassment.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> They're complaining? Thus far the silence has been deafening and instead of thanking the man that exposed America's and the UK's reprehensible actions they do their best to prevent him from getting to safety.



They're complaining to assuage the gripes of individuals like you. 



> Not according to your inane definition, no.



It's actually a pretty standard definition.



> And the reason you never bother explaining why you mislike the analogy is of course that you can't. Hypocrites gonna hypo.



The analogy is moronic because it's about simple gratification, not necessity. That is the stupidest thing about your comparisons.



> No, I can see you having a cynical, jingoistic worldview in which you country can spy on everyone and everything (except yourself of course) and when exposed, your best excuse is "well, everyone's doing it" without offering any evidence whatsoever to support your claim.



Cynical maybe. Not jingoistic, you people exaggerate too much. On foreign powers, not citizens, as I laid out previously.



> No, they don't. The UK spied on everyone. They did even worse shit than the US with TEMPORA, but guess what? They shared all that intel with the US.



Yes, they do. That's just your naivete crumbling down on itself. You seriously think international relations are anything like how two people can foster friendship? Get real. Why do you think other countries are clamming up? It's not because the U.S. is a bully, it's because they realize covert intelligence gathering is a necessity, a double-edged sword. 



> Okay, you got me. I'll never admit Snowden did something wrong and there's totally a cult of personality thing going on.



The first step to recovery is acceptance...



> How about that cult of personality around Stephen Hawking then? Nobody will admit that he deserves to go to prison for all he's done, people just pretend he did nothing wrong.



...if you ever reach that point. That was pretty desperate.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> Even if it means spying on your own citizens?
> 
> " The man who would choose security over freedom deserves neither"


Yes, even if it means spying on your own citizens since there are homegrown terrorists. There are unabombers. There are paramilitary groups. There are racists militias. 

And Benjamin Franklin never even lived in the age of the telegraph, much less the age of the internet and could never imagine how things have changed and how many threats both within or abroad there are now.


> This can't be done because the government is OWNED by the drug lords, our current president Enrique Pe?a Nieto was elected agaisnt the majority and had support from the media which has largely been pro-state, like when they hid the slaughter in 1968 for example. The druglords and Televisa placed the current government sadly, so I doubt the government would spy on its masters.


...did you miss the point of 'Before' all that?


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 3, 2013)

It seems a lot of people in this thread are unable to separate the foreign aspect of this case and the domestic aspect of the case. Trust me there is a difference between domestic and foreign spying  And both have different legalities and repercussions.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 3, 2013)

Chelydra said:


> It seems a lot of people in this thread are unable to separate the foreign aspect of this case and the domestic aspect of the case. Trust me there is a difference between domestic and foreign spying  And both have different legalities and repercussions.


And Domestic spying is necessary in stopping the likes of another Unabomber or Boston Bomber.


----------



## baconbits (Jul 3, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Oh Seto, your allies include a p*d*p**** and Blue. You should really rethink your life.



Really?  If that is how you're choosing to respond you're definitely not winning this debate.



Chelydra said:


> It seems a lot of people in this thread are unable to separate the foreign aspect of this case and the domestic aspect of the case. Trust me there is a difference between domestic and foreign spying  And both have different legalities and repercussions.



Yeah, a lot of people are bringing up things that don't matter or betraying their naivety.  Let's be realistic here: there is some amount of intelligence gathering that almost every major nation does.  Some in this thread might not like this but this is a given: information provides an advantage, thus it would be stupid not to take it.

Some of what the US is doing is legitimate even if it is troubling to our allies.  But some of it moves far beyond what we'd expect domestically.  When Snowden released the information about the domestic spying he was doing something illegal but releasing information that many of us wanted to hear.  When he released information about foreign spying he was acting in a treasonous fashion and undermining US interests.

In other words, this issue isn't just black or white.  There are bits and pieces of good and bad mixed together in this story.


----------



## Mansali (Jul 3, 2013)

An OP-ED written by Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson. 





> Let's be absolutely clear about the news that the NSA collects massive amounts of information on US citizens ? from emails, to telephone calls, to videos, under the Prism program and other Fisa court orders: this story has nothing to do with Edward Snowden. As interesting as his flight to Hong Kong might be, the pole-dancing girlfriend, and interviews from undisclosed locations, his fate is just a sideshow to the essential issues of national security versus constitutional guarantees of privacy, which his disclosures have surfaced in sharp relief.
> 
> *Snowden will be hunted relentlessly and, when finally found, with glee, brought back to the US in handcuffs and severely punished. (If Private Bradley Manning's obscene conditions while incarcerated are any indication, it won't be pleasant for Snowden either, even while awaiting trial.) Snowden has already been the object of scorn and derision from the Washington establishment and mainstream media, but, once again, the focus is misplaced on the transiently shiny object. The relevant issue should be: what exactly is the US government doing in the people's name to "keep us safe" from terrorists?*
> 
> ...


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes, even if it means spying on your own citizens since there are homegrown terrorists. There are unabombers. There are paramilitary groups. There are racists militias.



It is still unconstitutional to do so and a violation on the privacy of the citizens.

You seem to think that: security > freedom.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...did you miss the point of 'Before' all that?



I assume, you mean before the druglords got so much power right?

Assuming the spying would be limited to druglords then yes. However if such spying would include spying on every citizen, including normal people like you and me, gathering our information, etc and more importantly having control mechanism on the press. then I would no support it.

A mafia owned demagogue is no better or worse than an iron fist state that spy on its citizens. Supporting the state doing so to stop them, would be switching a form of bad goverment to another.

Going back to the topic it seems you think end justify the means, like the spying you provided the ends (avoiding nuclear war) justify the means (spying). While I am not and I repeat I AM NOT necessarily adverse with that, it cross the line when people want to paint it as a *good thing* which is not. Spying may be necessary, it may provide good results at times thus it is a necessary evil, with this I can agree, however one thing is for me to say "Okay, spying its necessary" and another thing entirely is for me to say spying is a good thing.

Furtherome agreeing with some points would need for me to say "It is okay for US to spy on my country" and sorry, but I just can't agree with that, just like I am sure you would not agree with other country spying on US.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> I assume, you mean before the druglords got so much power right?
> 
> Assuming the spying would be limited to druglords then yes.



If you're not American, you're a druglord in our eyes.

Comprende? Good, glad we came to an understanding.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

Blue said:


> If you're not American, you're a druglord in our eyes.
> 
> Comprende? Good, glad we came to an understanding.



Wow..... I seriously want to believe you are trolling, the thought of people like you actually existing frightens me.

It is people like these which push anti-US sentiments. If you are not trolling you are seriously some fucked-up individual with clearly Nazi-like views.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> It is still unconstitutional to do so and a violation on the privacy of the citizens.
> 
> You seem to think that: security > freedom.


Dude, what Benjamin Franklin said doesn't fit this day and age at all. This is the Information Age. He lived before the time of even the telegraph and couldn't know how things have changed.

And again, you think its right for homegrown terrorists to go on like nothing with no surveillance at all?


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And again, you think its right for homegrown terrorists to go on like nothing with no surveillance at all?



I don't at all. What I don't believe is right is said survelliance to encompass even if the target its the terrorists normal citizens, as well as things that were revealed that had NOTHING to do with terrorists, like control over the press. There is no way around it, you just can't justify the government spying and having control mechanisms over the press which was one of the major points.

I am not asking you to say me what Ben would or would not do. However what you say, seems dangerously close to the line of thinking that security is more important than freedom.

Again I am all in for survelliance of terrorists and druglords. I am not however in for the survelliance of normal people and gather information on them, neither on control mechanisms in the press.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

> And again, you think its right for homegrown terrorists to go on like nothing with no surveillance at all?



But its totally okay to treat all your citizens as homegrown terrorist ?

Bellends


----------



## navy (Jul 3, 2013)

I hate when people treat the founding fathers like gods and the constitution like the bible. We are all humans who can make our own judgments. The idea that guns should be okay just because the constitution says so is not an argument and is idiotic ,you must at least use the arguments the founding fathers used to plead their case. 

The same applies here. Why should we be concerned about privacy/security and which one should old more  weight and why. This is the discussion to be had, not quotes by Franklin. 

That being said i support guns, and the _premise _of what Snowden did.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> Wow..... I seriously want to believe you are trolling, the thought of people like you actually existing frightens me.
> 
> It is people like these which push anti-US sentiments. If you are not trolling you are seriously some fucked-up individual with clearly Nazi-like views.



I am trolling, yes, but at the same time there's simply no reason whatsoever for the American government to care what foreigners think about having their e-mails read.

Contrary to this media circus, everyone who matters in the US already knew about this program before Snowden made a big deal of it; it was public knowledge and on the record, and the laws allowing it had the support of the American people.


----------



## baconbits (Jul 3, 2013)

navy said:


> I hate when people treat the founding fathers like gods and the constitution like the bible. We are all humans who can make our own judgments. The idea that guns should be okay just because the constitution says so is not an argument and is idiotic ,you must at least use the arguments the founding fathers used to plead their case.



You're missing the point.  The constitution guarantees some of our rights.  As such you can't take away guns in America constitutionally.  So there is the constitutional argument and then there is a separate moral argument.

Now I can also argue that taking guns away is bad morally, but in America I really don't have to go that route because the constitution already legally guarantees my right to bear arms.  In a larger discussion about guns just generally we cannot use the constitution as an argument; we can only use the arguments the framers used.



navy said:


> The same applies here. Why should we be concerned about privacy/security and which one should old more  weight and why. This is the discussion to be had, not quotes by Franklin.



The reason people keep bringing up Franklin is because the man was brilliant and he correctly analyzed the situation facing us.  There is an unavoidable tension between security and freedom.  Fortunately technology allows us to be less intrusive even as it makes us more secure.  In other words in the past we'd have to search every home to find out the information that we currently know by following people's emails and analyzing them.

But that doesn't mean the tension has ceased to exist.  At some point freedom and security conflict and we must make a choice.  I don't think this is an issue that is perfect, so you'll have to give something to get something.  I'm a big fan of freedom, so I'll take a little more danger for a lot of freedom, but that trade is not absolute.  As we evaluate this issue we must realize that there is a trade off and this trade off means more the more you shift from one side of the paradigm to the other.



navy said:


> That being said i support guns, and the _premise _of what Snowden did.



I think Snowden released information that shows that there is a little bit too much intrusion going on, but the man also undermined his own government and released that information in a way that hurts the nation.


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## Let'sFightingLove (Jul 3, 2013)

Reznor said:


> But at the same time, Snowden was not a hero anymore than a terrorist that blows up a building that a rapist happened to be in. The benefits of knowing that the US is taken shady measures is good to have, but that is simply a benefit in the "blast radius" of treasonous action.



I thought it was more like bomberman where you have to blow up a block to get out of there but unfortunately there are only two places to stand and unavoidably you will get blown up as well. It's either sit there idly forever or pave the way to the future.


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## makeoutparadise (Jul 4, 2013)




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## stream (Jul 4, 2013)

Blue said:


> Contrary to this media circus, everyone who matters in the US already knew about this program before Snowden made a big deal of it; it was public knowledge and on the record, and the laws allowing it had the support of the American people.



So basically, nothing he said was a secret and there is no need to chase him down?


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## Blue (Jul 4, 2013)

stream said:


> So basically, nothing he said was a secret and there is no need to chase him down?



Well... yes.

And no. It was technically classified and he revealed details - like specifically who was being watched. Besides the PR nightmare, it did zero harm, but he still broke the law and you don't get to pick and choose which criminals to prosecute.


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## Elim Rawne (Jul 4, 2013)

> you don't get to pick and choose which criminals to prosecute



Really ? 'Cause Penor Cheney is still up and about


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## KidTony (Jul 4, 2013)

Blue said:


> Well... yes.
> 
> And no. It was technically classified and he revealed details - like specifically who was being watched. Besides the PR nightmare, it did zero harm, but he still broke the law and y*ou don't get to pick and choose which criminals to prosecute*.



Bitch, please.

It's obvious that this is not a case of "well, we can't pick and choose". Obama wants him so bad he is pressuring foreign nations not to give him asylum. They took away his passport! Someone who not only has not been convicted of any crime, he hasn't even been charged! Not even a warrant out for his arrest. Murderers and rapists don't have their passwords taken away, but Snowden does. It's obvious they want to make an example of snowden, because he's hurt them bad politically. I believe in the end Snowden, like Bradley Manning, are/will be political prisoners of the Obama administration.


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## Bishamon (Jul 4, 2013)

Is that Yahtzee

I think it's Yahtzee


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 4, 2013)

KidTony said:


> Bitch, please.
> 
> It's obvious that this is not a case of "well, we can't pick and choose". Obama wants him so bad he is pressuring foreign nations not to give him asylum. They took away his passport! Someone who not only has not been convicted of any crime, he hasn't even been charged! Not even a warrant out for his arrest. Murderers and rapists don't have their passwords taken away, but Snowden does. It's obvious they want to make an example of snowden, because he's hurt them bad politically. I believe in the end Snowden, like Bradley Manning, are/will be political prisoners of the Obama administration.



You don't keep up with stories at all. He has been charged with a crime, espionage, and they want him detained because of it. There is a warrant out for his arrest, hence the cooperation by nations in scouting for him so that he can be detained and extradited. 

Your argument is completely stupid and emotional. There is not a need to take the passports of criminals and rapists unless they are a flight risk. Snowden is a flight risk, which is why they took that actions. Furthermore, Bradley Manning leaked 750,000 classified documents as a military serviceman. He has been charged with the military equivalent of treason. Hardly a political prisoner.


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## Saishin (Jul 4, 2013)

> *Snowden case: France apologises in Bolivia plane row*
> 
> 
> *Bolivian protesters threw stones at the French embassy in La Paz and burned the French and European flags*
> ...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874


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## Let'sFightingLove (Jul 4, 2013)

It was a joke at first but now I think Bill Tapley, third eagle of the apocalypse and co-prophet of the end times might be right


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## Pliskin (Jul 4, 2013)

I think he should just off himself in the most suspicious way possible. His life is fucked anyway, might just make his enemies life a little more uncomfortable for it.

Lol, the Opposition in Germany is trying to milk the case as much as possible, asking for witness protection. 

While I have great sympathy for the guy and he did us a great deed, he simply would not be worth the bad blood with the U.S. and the U.K. So for once I agree with Chancelor Palpatina for playing it down, nothing productive can come out of this mess.

There are however some questions concerning our laws (for example it could be argued and some Idiot sure is gonna try to get arrest warrants on NSA employess for breach of privacy of 80 mil people)   which might get fun in the future.


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## Blue (Jul 4, 2013)

> Chancelor Palpatina


hehehehehehe


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## hcheng02 (Jul 4, 2013)

Funny thing happened in France today.



> France Says 'No' to Snowden After They're Busted for Spying, Too
> AP
> Connor Simpson 2:07 PM ET
> 
> ...


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## Ceria (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't get why he's playing musical chairs, some people were willing to pay for him to come to iceland and accept asylum. 

I wonder how many of us are past the point of caring about this guy.


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## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

> *Russia increasingly impatient over Snowden's airport stay*
> 
> (Reuters) - Edward Snowden should find another country to seek refuge in, a Russian official said on Thursday, signaling Moscow's growing impatience over the former U.S. spy agency contractor's stay at a Moscow airport.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/us-usa-security-russia-idUSBRE9630IV20130704

It's time to come home, Eddie.


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 5, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]-f3q_t7axVc[/YOUTUBE]

From Russia with love! :amazed


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## IchLiebe (Jul 5, 2013)

*Venny and Nicky give Snowy Asylum*





As head of state, the government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela decided to offer humanitarian asylum to the young American Edward Snowden so that he can live (without)  ... persecution from the empire," President Maduro said, referring to the United States. He made the offer during a speech marking the anniversary of Venezuela's independence.  It was not immediately clear if there were any conditions to Venezuela's offer.

Read more:


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## Bishop (Jul 5, 2013)

Good...


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Jul 6, 2013)

The Evo Morales incident was regrettable, however, i don't understand why the South American countries had to have an emergency meeting to discuss this and decide to declare this an attack on *ALL* of South America.


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## Island (Jul 6, 2013)

the_notorious_Z.?. said:


> The Evo Morales incident was regrettable, however, i don't understand why the South American countries had to have an emergency meeting to discuss this and decide to declare this an attack on *ALL* of South America.


Because Americans and Europeans are imperialist pigs, obviously. We're only the good guys when we're giving them stuff.


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## Altron (Jul 6, 2013)

lol if he wanted to seek asylum in a country that won't ship him back to the US, he would have had to move to either North Korea, China, or Bhutan.


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## KidTony (Jul 6, 2013)

the_notorious_Z.?. said:


> The Evo Morales incident was regrettable, however, i don't understand why the South American countries had to have an emergency meeting to discuss this and decide to declare this an attack on *ALL* of South America.



theatrics, though regrettable is too soft a word for it. Evo Morales is the leader of a foreign nation, with inviolable immunity. You simply do not do that without expecting a diplomatic nightmare.


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 6, 2013)

Island said:


> Because Americans and Europeans are imperialist pigs, obviously. We're only the good guys when we're giving them stuff.



I hope that's sarcasm. The US and EU is not imperialist by any sensible standards. Granted, we're not perfect, but at least we're always making an effort to not harm anyone.


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## Island (Jul 6, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> *I hope that's sarcasm.* The US and EU is not imperialist by any sensible standards. Granted, we're not perfect, but at least we're always making an effort to not harm anyone.


It is.

South America is as bad as Africa sometimes when it comes to complaining about the EU and US and then turning around and begging for help later.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 6, 2013)

Island said:


> It is.
> 
> South America is as bad as Africa sometimes when it comes to complaining about the EU and US and then turning around and begging for help later.



Because obviously blocking the president of a nation from flying over your country is just a little something civilized nations do and nobody should complain about it.


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## Mael (Jul 6, 2013)

Russia has been bags of fun over the months amirite?


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## Fiona (Jul 6, 2013)

Mael said:


> Russia has been bags of fun over the months amirite?



I kept trying to read that whole thing from Right to left. 

Manga has ruined me


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## Mael (Jul 6, 2013)

Silly...the Economist is no mango. 

It's srs bzns.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 6, 2013)

Why would Russia arrest Snowden? He hasn't committed any crimes.


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## Island (Jul 6, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Because obviously blocking the president of a nation from flying over your country is just a little something civilized nations do and nobody should complain about it.


Yeah, Bolivia, sure. What about the rest of South America? They only come together when they think the US/Europe has harmed them in some way.


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## Mael (Jul 6, 2013)

Or Jews were declared, Island.  After all, Venezuela declared Jews and the whole region came to his aid.


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## Oldy (Jul 6, 2013)

Island said:


> Yeah, Bolivia, sure. What about the rest of South America? They only come together when they think the US/Europe has harmed them in some way.


And that doesn't strike you as perfectly rational? Most European powers wouldn't and didn't think twice about doing this to Bolivia but if that meant a political and economical reprisal from most of South America then it would be another story.


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## Revolution (Jul 7, 2013)

The sociopath was compared to Kisame leaking information of Naruto and Bee to the Akatsuki by someone close to me.


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## Mansali (Jul 7, 2013)

Sarahmint said:


> The sociopath was compared to Kisame leaking information of Naruto and Bee to the Akatsuki by someone close to me.



I think a better example is someone from ROOT/ANBU leaking to the people of Konoha that Danzo is doing some crazy shit to keep people in Konoha safe. 

How is he a sociopath?


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