# king vs katakuri (Definitive edition)



## Bobybobster (Dec 17, 2021)

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Corax (Dec 17, 2021)

King high diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 17, 2021)

Corax said:


> King high diff


This

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## convict (Dec 17, 2021)

Why do I always have to make the polls for every vs thread in the telegrams you know you guys can do that right?

Reactions: Funny 12 | Winner 1


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## Great Potato (Dec 17, 2021)

@xenos5 when he discovered King has to sacrifice his durability if he wants to be fast enough to keep up with Katakuri

Reactions: Funny 27


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## Bobybobster (Dec 17, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> @xenos5 when he discovered King has to sacrifice his durability if he wants to be fast enough to keep up with Katakuri


to be fair he still endured a couple of adv.coc attacks in that mode


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## ShadoLord (Dec 17, 2021)

Kat don't have the attack power to wound King. He's yet to show anything on par with aCotC.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 6


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## maupp (Dec 17, 2021)

What with all these Katakuri threads?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Kishido (Dec 17, 2021)

What about DoFla vs King

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kylo Ren (Dec 17, 2021)

Katakuri extreme diff or its stalemate or can go either way.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Grimsley (Dec 17, 2021)

Katakuri is stronger from all the feats we have. And when he appears again as the new leader of the Big Mom pirates it will be pretty obvious if it isn’t already.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 3


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## Whimsy (Dec 17, 2021)

Legit think it's a 50/50 toss up

Katakuri has the most obvious upgrade in the world if Oda wants to push him up a level when he returns though

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Bobybobster (Dec 17, 2021)

Kishido said:


> What about DoFla vs King


it's like that toy story meme, doflamingo is the toy no one wants to play with anymore

Reactions: Funny 2


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

What Kata lacks in natural durability compared to King he makes up for with the Hardened Mochi + Armament combo that is Block Mochi and Power Mochi. It's not getting melted by King's flames easy either considering even a basic attack from Katakuri could match Red Hawk, and Kata explodes his own Block Mochi arm to shoot it like a rocket on fire with Grilled Mochi. So Kata can use Power Mochi to punch through King's flame attacks to hit King (or block them especially with multiple Power Mochi forming a wall/barrier) and with no danger to himself since it's not connected to his body.

Kata's ability to win really depends on how quickly he can figure out King's weakness. Kata definitely figures it out at some point though considering the intelligence and willingness to target weapoints Kata displayed when he prevented Luffy from going into G4, or when he stopped him from throwing punches by preemptively hitting his shoulders.

Extreme diff either way, but i'll bet on Kata as the smarter fighter with the range to hit King from anywhere on the battlefield with awakening.

Reactions: Agree 8


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 17, 2021)

FS + CoC + Awakening

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Mariko (Dec 17, 2021)

Whimsy said:


> Legit think it's a 50/50 toss up
> 
> Katakuri has the most obvious upgrade in the world if Oda wants to push him up a level when he returns though


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## Brian (Dec 17, 2021)

when we get to Elbaf we'll get a Katakuri vs Loki thread

ofc some will jump the gun and say Kat loses mid diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kamisori (Dec 17, 2021)

Close fight. I bet Oda would make them equal if they fought. I think King has the edge.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 17, 2021)

One YC1 has AdvCoA , AdvCoO , CoC and Awakenning  and other one does not . So, i dont know

Reactions: Funny 5 | GODA 1


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## Bernkastel (Dec 17, 2021)

Katakuri...King was unimpressive and basic for a FM...just a typical stoic fire user...Katakuri and every other FM tbh are far more interesting and special.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Baroxio (Dec 17, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Kat don't have the attack power to wound King. He's yet to show anything on par with aCotC.


Didn't Katakuri beat Gear 3 with Block Mochi + Peerless Donuts? And then, didn't he manage to equal Gear 4 later on? I wouldn't say that these attacks are weak by any stretch. Even with King's enhanced durability, I don't see Katakuri as being "unable" to wound King. Especially now that we know that King's durability is related to his fire ability.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## oiety (Dec 17, 2021)

King with much difficulty.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Tenma (Dec 17, 2021)

Kata is still the best FM but in a fight he really gets fucked over by Kuri and Rooftop powercreep

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Bash24 (Dec 17, 2021)

I have King at 100 and Katakuri at 99.9. 

Just because someone has CoC and Awakening doesn't make them stronger than someone who does not. Doffy would get his ass smacked around by King.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Corax (Dec 17, 2021)

Brian said:


> when we get to Elbaf we'll get a Katakuri vs Loki thread
> 
> ofc some will jump the gun and say Kat loses mid diff


To be fair by scaling Loki might be even above King. In each arc opponents grow stronger and so do SH.


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

Another point I just thought of. King's trick sword shouldn't work on Kata's trident not just due to the size of the trident, but the way Kata uses it with Mochi Thrust (spinning at super speed like a drill).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amol (Dec 17, 2021)

It can go either way extreme diff.
King is more durable while Kata is faster.
Rest is more or less the same.

These threads would be fun when we finally see Beckman.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bobybobster (Dec 17, 2021)

honestly this feels like a battle of attrition, kata's coo or kings endurance

I think king has a slight edge due to his df.


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## LaniDani (Dec 17, 2021)

Katakuri has advance coo,better coa,awekening,coc.Other guy is just lunarian.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ShadoLord (Dec 17, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> Didn't Katakuri beat Gear 3 with Block Mochi + Peerless Donuts? And then, didn't he manage to equal Gear 4 later on? I wouldn't say that these attacks are weak by any stretch. Even with King's enhanced durability, I don't see Katakuri as being "unable" to wound King. Especially now that we know that King's durability is related to his fire ability.


Those physical attacks are not doing anything to King. Zoro prior to awakening his aCotC was failing to deal damage to King. That’s beyond Kat’s paygrade.


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## Bash24 (Dec 17, 2021)

LaniDani said:


> Katakuri has advance coo,better coa,awekening,coc.Other guy is just lunarian.



Yes he's got better CoO no doubt. CoA should be comparable, Kat's CoA wasn't highlighted to be special for a YC1. CoC is a non factor if he cant use coating. Being a Lunarian and an ancient zoan means King is more than likely stronger, faster, and more durable than Kat.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Draffut (Dec 17, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Kat don't have the attack power to wound King. He's yet to show anything on par with aCotC.



Not when his defenses are up.  But as soon as he goes fast to keep up with Katakuri, he is done.

And if he never does, Katakuri wins the endurance slugfest.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Grinningfox (Dec 17, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> What Kata lacks in natural durability compared to King he makes up for with the Hardened Mochi + Armament combo that is Block Mochi and Power Mochi. It's not getting melted by King's flames easy either considering even a basic attack from Katakuri could match Red Hawk, and Kata explodes his own Block Mochi arm to shoot it like a rocket on fire with Grilled Mochi. So Kata can use Power Mochi to punch through King's flame attacks to hit King (or block them especially with multiple Power Mochi forming a wall/barrier) and with no danger to himself since it's not connected to his body.
> 
> Kata's ability to win really depends on how quickly he can figure out King's weakness. Kata definitely figures it out at some point though considering the intelligence and willingness to target weapoints Kata displayed when he prevented Luffy from going into G4, or when he stopped him from throwing punches by preemptively hitting his shoulders.
> 
> Extreme diff either way, but i'll bet on Kata as the smarter fighter with the range to hit King from anywhere on the battlefield with awakening.


Sums up my thoughts on it perfectly

Reactions: Like 2


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## Typhon (Dec 17, 2021)

This thread makes me so happy

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 2


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## Grimsley (Dec 17, 2021)

Typhon said:


> This thread makes me so happy


It’s just funny seeing some of these posters claiming King would win being the same ones who used to claim Queen would beat Katakuri too. Their delusion is on another level. It would be an extreme diff fight but honestly Katakuri is stronger and he has more potential to return in the future and be even stronger.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> honestly this feels like a battle of attrition, kata's coo or kings endurance
> 
> I think king has a slight edge due to his df.


Kata's stamina/endurance did also get a retroactive boost though from Kidd and Law revealing how much of a toll DF awakening takes on the user 

Like it's kinda crazy how they see it as an absolute last resort but Kata can spam it for 12+ hours and continue using it just fine even after stabbing himself.

Reactions: Like 3


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## ShadoLord (Dec 17, 2021)

Draffut said:


> Not when his defenses are up.  But as soon as he goes fast to keep up with Katakuri, he is done.
> 
> And if he never does, Katakuri wins the endurance slugfest.


He took aCotC without his flames so it’s still beyond Kat.

Kat can come back when he beats someone on Marco’s caliber before fighting aCotC user.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Draffut (Dec 17, 2021)

Zoro said:


> He took aCotC without his flames so it’s still beyond Kat.
> 
> Kat can come back when he beats someone on Marco’s caliber before fighting aCotC user.



You mean when Marco was 2v1 while simultaneously healing 2 entire armies?  And dealing with pedopedo, BM, chopper, and getting Zoro to the roof?  King couldn't even figure out how to hurt him, Marco just tired himself out from carrying the entire alliance at once.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

Zoro said:


> He took aCotC without his flames so it’s still beyond Kat.


A basic aCoC strike is different from a named move though. Do you think Luffy right after he learned aCoC would instantly KO pre aCoC Zoro with one punch? King receiving heavy damage from an unnamed aCoC slice from Zoro doesn't mean he completely tanks anything that doesn't have aCoC even in speed mode. 

Page One also while KOd likely didn't die from Big Mom's aCoC strike despite the vast disparity between them. 


Zoro said:


> Kat can come back when he beats someone on Marco’s caliber before fighting aCotC user.


Except Marco had already used up stamina from his skirmish with Big Mom, healing a bunch of people and fought King and Queen together for a decent amount of time before King fought him 1v1. And Marco's already bounced back and is flying around again. You can't really ignore all those caveats.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 6


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 17, 2021)

Katakuri extreme diffs

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 17, 2021)

King one shots in speed mode


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 17, 2021)

Grimsley said:


> It’s just funny seeing some of these posters claiming King would win being the same ones who used to claim Queen would beat Katakuri too. Their delusion is on another level. It would be an extreme diff fight but honestly Katakuri is stronger and he has more potential to return in the future and be even stronger.


Queen would beat Katakuri because Katakuri has no way of hurting him. Even his mother couldn't put the guy down without her full strength.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## LaniDani (Dec 17, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Queen would beat Katakuri because Katakuri has no way of hurting him. Even his mother couldn't put the guy down without her full strength.


Katakuri beats Queen without awakening.Stop joking.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 17, 2021)

LaniDani said:


> Katakuri beats Queen without awakening.Stop joking.


How?

let me guess i should read the manga


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## RayanOO (Dec 17, 2021)

Kata extreme diff

Marco => Kata => King

Reactions: Winner 1 | Neutral 1


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## Sablés (Dec 17, 2021)

Even without his flames, King was taking direct blows from Zoro who eclipses WCI G4. Katakuri loses a battle of attrition. If King keeps his flames up, Kata can't even harm him.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ludi (Dec 17, 2021)

Very high diff fight, either way. I expect Katakuri to be stronger EoS.


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## Captain Quincy (Dec 17, 2021)

King because the powercreep is real.

But it would be a hard fight because of Kata's abilities.


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## LaniDani (Dec 17, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> How?
> 
> let me guess i should read the manga


Yes, and you wouldn't ask how it would be if you read it.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 17, 2021)

I lean Katakuri on this one still. While it is posited that Katakuri can't damage King when his fire is up and is slower when the fire is out, that's conjectural. Katakuri has the strength and Buso Haki to match Gear Fourth Boundman, and the speed to fight evenly and press Gear Fourth Snakeman without requiring any transformation. I also think the opposite is equally challenging. Hitting Katakuri is the first challenge as the only way to get around his mochi shape shifting defense is with Future Sight.

With Future Sight Katakuri would be able to analyze King's defense a lot faster than Zoro could and while taking less damage.

Any fight at that level is eventually going to turn into a war of attrition but I think Katakuri can outlast King's secret then wear him down.

Reactions: Like 12


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## Draffut (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Even without his flames, King was taking direct blows from Zoro who eclipses WCI G4. Katakuri loses a battle of attrition. If King keeps his flames up, Kata can't even harm him.



If he keeps his flames up, neither one can hurt the other.  And Katakuri can fight like that for a long ass time, as we saw with Luffy.

Reactions: Like 2


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## RossellaFiamingo (Dec 17, 2021)

Katakuri wins highest ends of high difficulty or low extreme difficulty. Despite Kata having way more tools to work with, King's limited tools are very strong

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Sablés (Dec 17, 2021)

Draffut said:


> If he keeps his flames up, neither one can hurt the other.


Don't know about that. King's endurance is a natural state of being, and even if he swaps flames, he gets faster while still being durable enough to take Katakuri's hits without much trouble. Imagine this for a protracted battle that lasts some hours. FS isn't inviolable, Katakuri can and has made mistakes. Especially as King has ranged attacks that were likened to Magma.

I'd also bet that continuous use of CoO would be more tiring than King just fighting normally. It'll be a long one but there's no reason that King should lose. G4 firepower is obsolete due to powercreep.


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## icyBankai (Dec 17, 2021)

King appears to be stronger due to fighting Zoro but that could be recency bias + power scaling.

Although YC1s should all be in the same 'ballpark' or the yonkou structure wouldn't have lasted for decades.

King has high AP and impressive speed, durability, endurance.

Katakuri has adv coa haki w block mochi, FS, tricky paramecia that allows shape-shifting, CoC.

It'd be a damn good fight for sure. I don't think anyone has a definite answer to this.

Oda wants us to speculate after-all.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Canute87 (Dec 17, 2021)

Bernkastel said:


> Katakuri...King was unimpressive and basic for a FM...just a typical stoic fire user...Katakuri and every other FM tbh are far more interesting and special.


Katakuri could use fire too by the way.


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## Sablés (Dec 17, 2021)

Also, I'm not sure if it's me forgetting but Katakuri can't fly right? That'd be a notable disadvantage.


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## Grimsley (Dec 17, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Queen would beat Katakuri because Katakuri has no way of hurting him. Even his mother couldn't put the guy down without her full strength.


Thank you for being the newest edition to my ignore list.

If I have to explain to you why Katakuri confidently beats Queen then I’m not going to waste my time.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 17, 2021)

How the Beast Pirates feel right now

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 17, 2021)

Grimsley said:


> Thank you for being the newest edition to my ignore list.
> 
> If I have to explain to you why Katakuri confidently beats Queen then I’m not going to waste my time.


explain to me. maybe i can see a new perspective.


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## Mylesime (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Also, I'm not sure if it's me forgetting but Katakuri can't fly right? That'd be a notable disadvantage.



This is where awakening comes into play.
Summoning Giant limbs freely from thin air means range is not an issue for the sweet commander.

Reactions: Like 4


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Don't know about that. King's endurance is a natural state of being, and even if he swaps flames, he gets faster while still being durable enough to take Katakuri's hits without much trouble. Imagine this for a protracted battle that lasts some hours. FS isn't inviolable, Katakuri can and has made mistakes. Especially as King has ranged attacks that were likened to Magma.


The mistakes Kata made were things like plot forcing him to have his Merienda in the middle of the fight so he got angry when Luffy discovered him and couldn't use FS. Something he wouldn't do here as he knows he's up against another first mate. 

Most importantly Kata adapted against a trickier harder to predict style of fighting than King's when he dodged his way through Black Mamba, a high-speed rapidly shifting barrage of attacks. And that was after Luffy got his own FS. If Kata's serious about not getting hit King will have to pull more tricks up his sleeve than we saw from him to have a chance of confusing him the way Snakeman initially did. Linear attacks even if fast, aren't enough on their own to overcome Kata's speed and FS and Kata showed that when he easily sidestepped Jet Culverin's initial strike.  


Sablés said:


> I'd also bet that continuous use of CoO would be more tiring than King just fighting normally. It'll be a long one but there's no reason that King should lose. G4 firepower is obsolete due to powercreep.


You know what it isn't obsolete? Superior/denser armament haki. Block Mochi/Power Mochi could make Boundman Luffy cough up blood and make Luffy's fists throb in pain even in Snakeman, Speed Mode King is definitely feeling hits from it. He's so reliant on his natural durability he never really got to show much with his own armament haki after all. 


Sablés said:


> Also, I'm not sure if it's me forgetting but Katakuri can't fly right? That'd be a notable disadvantage.


Kata had no problems hitting Boundman Luffy while he was flying with Power Mochi. Helps that it can be spawned in mid-air anywhere around the opponent. And that the amount Katakuri can control at once is especially good with Mochi Ginchaku.

Reactions: Winner 12


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## Sablés (Dec 17, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> This is where awakening comes into play.
> Summoning Giant limbs freely from thin air means range is not an issue for the sweet commander.


What's the maximum distance here? Does Katakuri have the feats to summon arms as far away as King is in the sky?

And supposing he could, would he? Awakening's also exhaustive so Katakuri will be wasting more energy than normal doing it and he can't really hurt King from the beginning. Katakuri has to play a completely defensive strategy here and that only delays the inevitable. Between a fighter who can tank whatever comes at him and another who needs to dodge repeatedly to stay in the game, I'll always back the former. It's simply the safer bet.


xenos5 said:


> The mistakes Kata made were things like plot forcing him to have his Merienda in the middle of the fight so he got angry when Luffy discovered him and couldn't use FS. Something he wouldn't do here as he knows he's up against another first mate.


No. The mistakes he made was underestimating Luffy's tenacity. He got tagged when Base Luffy punched through rocks as a smokescreen to get to him.


xenos5 said:


> Most importantly Kata adapted against a trickier harder to predict style of fighting than King's when he dodged his way through Black Mamba, a high-speed rapidly shifting barrage of attacks. And that was after Luffy got his own FS. If Kata's serious about not getting hit King will have to pull more tricks up his sleeve than we saw from him to have a chance of confusing him the way Snakeman initially did.


King doesn't need tricks. He has more AoE/DC than Luffy and is harder to reach for Katakuri to counter attack.

Seriously, FS just fails to wide-spread attacks. All it does is give Katakuri predictions. He still has to be able to dodge/block.


xenos5 said:


> Speed Mode King is definitely feeling hits from it. He's so reliant on his natural durability he never really got to show much with his own armament haki after all.


Proof? What does WCI Luffy have to do with King's durability, who is massively stronger in that regard?


xenos5 said:


> Kata had no problems hitting Boundman Luffy while he was flying with Power Mochi. Helps that it can be spawned in mid-air anywhere around the opponent. And that the amount Katakuri can control at once is especially good with Mochi Ginchaku.


See my response above.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mylesime (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> What's the maximum distance here? Does Katakuri have the feats to summon arms as far away as King is in the sky?
> 
> And supposing he did, would he? Awakening's also exhaustive so Katakuri will be wasting more energy than normal doing it and he can't really hurt King from the beginning. Katakuri has to play a completely defensive strategy here and that only delays the inevitable. Between a fighter who can tank whatever comes at him and another who needs to dodge repeatedly to stay in the game, I'll always back the former. It's simply the safer bet.



King is not beating Katakuri by simply keeping his distance in order to avoid a counter attack.
Katakuri has future sight and his devil fruit allows him to shape morph, as well as awakening.
The further King is from Katakuri the easier dodging or parrying would be. The character has been showcased avoiding gattling bullets at close range ( Capone) or Snakeman luffy's blackmamba......
There is a reason King had to close the distance in order to hurt Zoro. Firing from far away was not going to cut it.

He fought Luffy for 12 hours, betting on his exhaustion in  order to win a fight doesn't look very plausible.

It would not be easy for Katakuri to put down King, the same way it would be very difficult for King to put down Katakuri.

The sweet commander 's AP is also underrated. Mogura was effective vs Luffy hence why he barely used it.
And Luffy survived some attacks by means he's the only one able to use. Eating his way out of Mochi buildings is not an option for everyone. Awakening can be used to burry an opponent.....
Not saying that it could be done easily against someone as strong as King (mobility, firepower, AoE,etc,erc) . But he could try to suffocate him.

Each of them as  means to counter the other and be dangerous potentially.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> What's the maximum distance here? Does Katakuri have the feats to summon arms as far away as King is in the sky?
> 
> And supposing he did, would he? Awakening's also exhaustive so Katakuri will be wasting more energy than normal doing it and he can't really hurt King from the beginning. Katakuri has to play a completely defensive strategy here and that only delays the inevitable. Between a fighter who can tank whatever comes at him and another who needs to dodge repeatedly to stay in the game, I'll always back the former. It's simply the safer bet.


Except Kata used awakening for 12+ hours. And used it just fine after stabbing himself too.

The stamina cost for it seems negligible to Katakuri, perhaps because of the time he’s had to master it 


Sablés said:


> No. The mistakes he made was underestimating Luffy's tenacity. He got tagged when Base Luffy punched through rocks as a smokescreen to get to him.


He was focused on regenerating his arm after shooting it off with Grilled Mochi in that instance. That was also after Luffy had got his own FS, 


Sablés said:


> King doesn't need tricks. He has more AoE than Luffy and is harder to reach for Katakuri to counter attack.


Kaido had AOE with Boro Breath but at the beginning of Wano Luffy easily dodged it in base. Kata’s heat resistant Power Mochi arms (given Kata could clash with Red Hawk with just his normal armament and has his own fire based move with Block Mochi) can also block the flames from hitting Kata or punch through the flames to hit King.


Sablés said:


> Proof? What does WCI Luffy have to do with King's durability?


My proof is Kata’s feats with armament Haki and King’s lack of feats in that same area. 

Even Zoro’s base armament (not coating his swords and blocking) let him take a point blank explosion from King that he said would’ve killed him if he took it without armament.

Kata’s armament causing that throbbing effect on Luffy’s armament is something we haven’t seen except for when Luffy tried to block Kaido’s club.

Speed Mode King being immune to that effect with no armament feats of his own wouldn’t really make sense.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 17, 2021)

Draffut said:


> Not when his defenses are up.  But as soon as he goes fast to keep up with Katakuri, he is done.
> 
> And if he never does, Katakuri wins the endurance slugfest.



Katakuri wins the endurance slugfest? 

Thats CAP


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## Great Potato (Dec 17, 2021)

Flight is a big advantage, but it's not King's nature to just try camping out of range in some war of attrition.

It was explicitly pointed out that he could have done so against Zoro, but King refused because he didn't want to pass up the opportunity of a good duel. If Big Mom's finest is standing in front of him then King is going to want to get in and have a piece of him to test his might against a worthy opponent.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Neutral 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 17, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Katakuri wins the endurance slugfest?
> 
> Thats CAP


I don't think King is fighting for 3 plus hours using awakening with a hole in his stomach.


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## Bobybobster (Dec 17, 2021)

i don't remember adding a poll, googling symptoms...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Empathy (Dec 17, 2021)

Fight is a lot closer with clearer information on King’s powers. Before it seemed like Katakuri would struggle to deal lasting damage on him, but with future sight, Katakuri should be able to react to King’s speed and counteract when he’s vulnerable/not as durable. Future sight is really the perfect counter to King’s abilities. I’d say it could honestly go either way, but I want to favor King slightly with extreme difficulty, just because he’s the FM on a stronger crew.


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## Bobybobster (Dec 17, 2021)

king lost so quickly due to plot reasons, but we can compare him to an another ancient zoan, jack the dragdown. I think he should have the edge in endurance.


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## Sablés (Dec 17, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> King is not beating Katakuri by simply keeping his distance in order to avoid a counter attack.


King is beating Katakuri by letting him waste his energy on doing nothing but defending. King has no reason to go up close unless he wanted to, and he doesn't have to "avoid" anything. He's impervious to any and all of Katakuri's attacks. Fighting at a distance is just insult to injury as the most expedient way to make Katakuri waste stamina.


Mylesime said:


> The further King is from Katakuri the easier dodging or parrying would be. The character has been showcased avoiding gattling bullets at close range ( Capone) or Snakeman luffy's blackmamba......


Who said anything about bullets? You saw King's giant flame dragon or the attacks that were blowing away chunks of Onigashima right? Or the literal explosion from King's own body?


Mylesime said:


> There is a reason King had to close the distance in order to hurt Zoro. Firing from far away was not going to cut it.


King spends his (presumably) final moments in that fight at a distance, because he realized that fighting Zoro up close was too dangerous. If he decides that Katakuri is as threatening, he will make the same choice.
He fought a much weaker Luffy for hours. You are insinuating that Katakuri would use awakening to tag King. He does that and he is expending far more energy than he did against Luffy.



Mylesime said:


> The sweet commander 's AP is also underrated. Mogura was effective vs Luffy hence why he barely used it



This is my problem with Katakuri arguments. Just a general statement that doesn't take into account comparisons. If of his feats are centered around performance against luffy, they become dependent on Luffy at that point in time. King and current Wano mains are operating above that class.



xenos5 said:


> Except Kata used awakening for 12+ hours. And used it just fine after stabbing himself too.


_Consistently_? Well, he'll need to do so for longer here. Because King is much tougher than Luffy.


xenos5 said:


> He was focused on regenerating his arm after shooting it off with Grilled Mochi in that instance.


And? If FS was so perfect, this wouldn't have mattered and he would have known the hit was coming.


xenos5 said:


> That was also after Luffy had got his own FS,


You don't even know if Luffy used FS here since he just attained it. I don't see why it would have worked against Katakuri's FS either.


xenos5 said:


> Kaido had AOE with Boro Breath but at the beginning of Wano Luffy easily dodged it in base.


Boro Breath has AoE when it detonates, otherwise it's a linear beam.


xenos5 said:


> Kata’s heat resistant Power Mochi arms (given Kata could clash with Red Hawk with just his normal armament and has his own fire based move with Block Mochi) can also block the flames from hitting Kata or punch through the flames to hit King.


Key word: "resistant" and that is only relevant to what's been resisted. King's flames are much stronger than anything involving Luffy and Katakuri's battle by powercreep. I feel like a broken record here, but you guys just don't seem to get it. Any argument that slaps WCI Luffy's name on it falls flat.


xenos5 said:


> My proof is Kata’s feats with armament Haki and King’s lack of feats in that same area.


Why is King's haki relevant here where he outperforms Katakuri without it? Haki is a supplementary skill. Katakuri having better haki does not make him a better or stronger fighter. King's in-born characteristics are over-the-top by comparison.


xenos5 said:


> Even Zoro’s base armament (not coating his swords and blocking) let him take a point blank explosion from King that he said would’ve killed him if he took it without armament.


And how would you compare Katakuri's haki to Zoro's full body haki?


xenos5 said:


> Speed Mode King being immune to that effect with no armament feats of his own wouldn’t really make sense.


Except for the fact that Speed Mode King was taking hits that would make _Kaido _bleed. Not that I know why King would ever need Speed Mode or why we're comparing Katakuri to Zoro in the first place. They have no relation.


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## Mylesime (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> King is beating Katakuri by letting him waste his energy on doing nothing but defending. King has no reason to go up close unless he wanted to, and he doesn't have to "avoid" anything. He's impervious to any and all of Katakuri's attacks. Fighting at a distance is just insult to injury as the most expedient way to make Katakuri waste stamina.



Katakuri could avoid King's long ranged attacks for hours.
I don't think that King is impervious to all Katakuri's attacks, just like i don't think that Katakuri could avoid everything King throws at him......  No limit fallacy.
King trades speed in exchange of durability.
Fighting off awakening all over the place is not an easy task imo.
Specially since i've just seen what it did to Big Mom (Kidd). Luffy ate his way out of it, don't think it would be that easy for King.
Luffy is incredibly resistant to blunt damage and had an insatiable appetite.



Sablés said:


> Who said anything about bullets? You saw King's giant flame dragon or the attacks that were blowing away chunks of Onigashima right? Or the literal explosion from King's own body?


Avoiding Capone's blank ranged fire shots is a feat.
I've seen Katakuri avoid Snakeman's attacks.
Zoro has been avoiding must of those attacks, he even protected himself from the explosion thanks to CoA
Katakuri is better at avoiding and dodging, anticipating (shape morphing + Future Sight+ awakening for blocking).
Zoro overwhelms with insane AP/advanced CoC.



Sablés said:


> King spends his (presumably) final moments in that fight at a distance, because he realized that fighting Zoro up close was too dangerous. This is nothing but your speculation.


King could land techniques, it's true.
Katakuri could also avoid it or disturb King's aim just like he did several time vs Luffy.
Awakening is also a mean to block.
Those characters have not the same skillsets.



Sablés said:


> He fought a much weaker Luffy for hours. You are insinuating that Katakuri would use awakening to tag King. He does that and he is expending far more energy than he did against Luffy.


Oda wasted the characters stamina by having him punch a rubber ball for hours.
King is not forcing Katakuri to use awakening constantly for hours.
You're also ignoring that King recognized himself that he exhausted himself vs Zoro.
He would use stamina too, he's not firing those dragons or moving at that speed/tanking those hits cost free.....



Sablés said:


> This is my problem with Katakuri arguments. Just a general statement that doesn't take into account comparisons. If anything of his feats are centered around performance against luffy, they are much less useful here because King _outclasses _Luffy.



Katakuri also outclassed Luffy.
The only moment Luffy could compete was after gaining Future sight and with Snakeman.
We're speculating here anyway, since this is an hypothetical fight.  The question is whether it is plausible or not.
Luffy dealt with some attacks in ways King could not. Eating through mochi buldings was such a thing, just like how he kept eating Crakers biscuit.
The fight vs Luffy was one sided anyway. Plot is the only reason Luffy won.

Reactions: Like 6


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## convict (Dec 17, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> i don't remember adding a poll, googling symptoms...



You didn’t

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Draffut (Dec 17, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Katakuri wins the endurance slugfest?
> 
> Thats CAP



The guy who fought Luffy forever while using his stamina draining awakening and FS? Even after skewering himself?

Absolutely.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bernkastel (Dec 17, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Katakuri could use fire too by the way.


My point was about the typical fire badass sroic guy...not specifically fire as an element...I mean everyone and their mother use fire now and King's whole powerset revolves around it which for me is boring af..at least for a FM where I expect to see something special...


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## Sablés (Dec 17, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Katakuri could avoid King's long ranged attacks for hours.


Good for him. He'll get tired more easily though if he wants to win.


Mylesime said:


> I don't think that King is impervious to all Katakuri's attacks, just like i don't think that Katakuri could avoid everything King throws at him...... No limot fallacy.


It is the exact opposite of a NLF. NLF would be assuming Katakuri can harm King without the feats for it. King has tanked blows that bled Kaido. The difference in what King has withstood/tanked compared what Katakuri has dished out by feats is obscenely in King's favor.

YOU have to provide evidence that Katakuri can harm him, not the other way around.



Mylesime said:


> I've seen Katakuri avoid Snakeman's attacks.


Snakeman isn't relevant to King.
Katakuri/Luffy aren't relevant to Zoro.

There is no correlation between any of them and it is clear that all your arguments demand that be the case.


Mylesime said:


> Katakuri also outclassed Luffy.


No he didn't. Physically, he and Luffy were in the same league, and Katakuri's endurance was probably worse.

I have nothing more to say on the matter. Katakuri's attack power/durability/endurance aren't enough to keep pace here, and even speed/reactions is a supposition from hype. Sucks but this what powercreep and Luffy shenangians does.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Also, I'm not sure if it's me forgetting but Katakuri can't fly right? That'd be a notable disadvantage.


Actually I'd be shocked if Katakuri couldn't use Geppo like many of his siblings do.

Additionally, Peerless Donuts allow Katakuri an impressive ranged attack.

Katakuri fought off Gear Fourth Luffy who can fly and Zoro also can't fly. It's an advantage, but not a notably insurmountable one even if Katakuri is ground bound.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 17, 2021)

Draffut said:


> The guy who fought Luffy forever while using his stamina draining awakening and FS? Even after skewering himself?
> 
> Absolutely.



98 percent of the fight was luffy running away.

King is a Ancient Zoan his endurance is significantly higher then katakuris stop the cap


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## Sablés (Dec 17, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Actually I'd be shocked if Katakuri couldn't use Geppo like many of his siblings do.


Has he shown it though? Having a capacity to learn something doesn't mean he did. Otherwise sky walk would be a lot more common for all fighters in the setting.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Additionally, Peerless Donuts allow Katakuri an impressive ranged attack.


We've been talking about this move for a while already. There's no evidence that Katakuri's range extends to King's flight range.  It's not outlandish though so I can accept it. The real issue is the relatively weak AP.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Katakuri fought off Gear Fourth Luffy who can fly and Zoro also can't fly. It's an advantage, but not a notably insurmountable one even if Katakuri is ground bound.


This is an awkward comparison. Luffy can  fly but he majorly fights in CQC, and this was a closed room. King can fly _and _take advantage of it in ways Luffy can't/doesn't. He was drawn to a sword battle with Zoro because he likes swords/duels apparently, but even that took a backseat to fear.


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## Conxc (Dec 17, 2021)

I like extreme diff either way in respect to the gridlock the Yonkou have been in. If one Yonkou crew was decisively stronger than another, they’d overtake them. We know the Yonkou themselves are or should be extreme diff in any matchup, so the real variance has to be within the crew, commanders and Ministers/Toni Roppo equivalents.

With that said, *IMO*, this fight depends on Smoothie. I think just referencing Beast Lirates vs BMP, Cracker and Jack are very comparable overall. Smoothie is a question mark in comparison to Queen. If she’s weaker than Queen decisively then I feel like Katakuri has to carry more of a load meaning he *should *be stronger than King. If Smoothie is decisively stronger then King should be stronger than Katakuri. There are a few things wrong with this reasoning like the fact that the Yonkou crews are probably not *dead *even, but I kinda don’t agree with the island to island does necessarily getting stronger here in reference to Yonkou crews specifically. That would mean that tha later Yonkou crews that the SHs will face should be decisively stronger than the former Yonkou crews. That doesn’t really work IMO. I think King vs Kata would be a hell of a fight and I do think King edges him out because of his durability, but Kata with FS should be able to tell when King switches before he does. The issue would be reacting. If he isn’t IC being his calm collective self his FS isn’t as potent and he’s vulnerable. I would love to see Oda draw that fight in depth tbh.


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> _Consistently_? Well, he'll need to do so for longer here. Because King is much tougher than Luffy.


It’s not as though King doesn’t use up stamina with his own attacks as well. How do you know for example that he can spam the flame dragon he only used at the end of his fight against Zoro as an ultimate attack? If you were to assume that he could spam it for hours when he hasn’t shown the stamina or ability to do that, than I could also assume Kata can spam Diced Mochi and his Mochi Donut Mode that let him blitz Snakeman Luffy. And that only makes King’s prospects of actually hitting Katakuri worse as well as increasing Katakuri’s prospects of landing a devastating blow on King in Speed Mode.


Sablés said:


> And? If FS was so perfect, this wouldn't have mattered and he would have known the hit was coming.
> You don't even know if Luffy used FS here since he just attained it. I don't see why it would have worked against Katakuri's FS either.


Why would Luffy not have used FS? That entire portion of the fight was dedicated to showing Luffy could finally use it properly before he went into Snakeman. And moreover it’s the combination of factors. Kata having been focused on regenerating his arm, Luffy jumping out from behind the pillar and using FS. Luffy wouldn’t have caught Kata off guard if his own FS didn’t him help compensate so he could capitalize on a moment of distraction he wouldn’t otherwise be able to capitalize on.


Sablés said:


> Boro Breath has AoE when it detonates, otherwise it's a linear beam.


In sheer size Boro Breath is perfectly comparable if not bigger than King’s flame dragon even before it explodes. In fact why don’t you try directlub the distance Boro Breath crossed to destroy that mountain to the gap between King and Zoro when King used his flame dragon?


Sablés said:


> Key word: "resistant" and that is only relevant to what's been resisted. King's flames are much stronger than anything involving Luffy and Katakuri's battle by powercreep. I feel like a broken record here, but you guys just don't seem to get it. Any argument that slaps WCI Luffy's name on it falls flat.


And so what? It doesn’t matter if Power Mochi eventually gets melted from sustained flames it having that resistance will still let it last long enough to hit King before that or block the flames from hitting from Katakuri until it naturally dissipates like most attacks do



Sablés said:


> Why is King's haki relevant here where he outperforms Katakuri without it? Haki is a supplementary skill. Katakuri having better haki does not make him a better or stronger fighter. King's in-born characteristics are over-the-top by comparison.


Supplementary how? Does Rayleigh saying this about FS  sound at all to you like he believes high levels of Haki don’t let you compete at all with those who are naturally tougher? Heck Shanks being a Yonko despite having no DF and there not being any hints of him having a special body or anything should also go to show how much Haki proficiency makes a difference.


Sablés said:


> And how would you compare Katakuri's haki to Zoro's full body haki?


You can compare it by Katakuri saying there are levels to armament Haki immediately after he started using Block Mochi. Kaido using his Kanabo being the only other time Luffy’s hand/arm throbbed through his armament. And there’s also the flame pattern armament Kata displayed with Dice Mochi that we only saw elsewhere with Big Mom and G4 Luffy.

Zoro’s base armament doesn’t have any of that hype. Where his Haki hype does come in is when coating his swords and with Enma especially.


Sablés said:


> Except for the fact that Speed Mode King was taking hits that would make _Kaido _bleed. Not that I know why King would ever need Speed Mode or why we're comparing Katakuri to Zoro in the first place. They have no relation.


Except that’s again ignoring the difference between basic attacks and special attacks. King didn’t take the Tornado attack Zoro used to slice Kaido in his speed mode. His flame was on and he blocked with his wings. Zoro isn’t making Kaido bleed with an unnamed sword swing. But he can damage speed mode King with unnamed attacks.

And what do you mean why would King need speed mode? Are you claiming King with flames on his back is comparable to Snakeman in speed and trickiness? Cause I sincerely doubt that.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Mylesime (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Good for him. He'll get tired more easily though if he wants to win.


King would get tired too firing techniques at an opponent from far away. An opponent known for his ability to dodge and avoid.



Sablés said:


> It is the exact opposite of a NLF. NLF would be assuming Katakuri can harm King without the feats for it. King has tanked blows that bled Kaido. The difference in what King has withstood/tanked compared what Katakuri has dished out by feats is obscenely in King's favor.
> 
> YOU have to provide evidence that Katakuri can harm him, not the other way around.



You're assuming that Katakuri can't harm King by any means, even if he suffocates him, if i follow you correctly that is NLF.
Luffy getting out after being burried does not translate to everyone.
I'm not saying that it would be easy.
But Katakuri's ability to harm King is obvious imo, just like King's ability to tag the Kat' doesn't suffer any doubt either.
I've seen Marco hurt King with blunt force and velocity, i've seen his durability decreases in exchange of speed,etc
I've seen blunt force and velocity effective VS Big Mom.
Luffy miraculously surviving with PIS/CIS , and through unique means doesnt mean King would get out unscathed from such a fight.
Sure Zoro's AP is far superior, but katakuri is above in terms of speed, CoO, AoE, etc.
He would harm King , the more time the fight last= the more damages accumulated.
And again Kings skills are not cost free he recognized it himself this chapter.







Sablés said:


> Snakeman isn't relevant to King.
> Katakuri/Luffy aren't relevant to Zoro.


Disagree.
Speedwise specially.
Luffy made massive progress in terms of AP since WCI. Speedwise and reflexe wise, in terms of CoO? Not so much.
Relevant imo.



Sablés said:


> There is no correlation between any of them and it is clear that all your arguments demand that be the case.



Disagree. We're making assumptions.
Comparisons, using transitivity, etc , since those two never fought.
We might reach different conclusions which is fine.




Sablés said:


> No he didn't. Physically, he and Luffy were in the same league, and Katakuri's endurance was probably worse.



False, if it was the case Katakuri should have been outclassed by Snakeman Luffy who learned Future sight. Just like he dominated Doflamingo.
Katakuri was far superior to base Luffy who needed Gear 4 to reach that level momentarly.



Sablés said:


> I have nothing more to say on the matter. Katakuri's attack power/durability/endurance aren't enough to keep pace here, and even speed/reactions is a supposition from hype. Sucks but this what powercreep and Luffy shenangians does.


Let's agree to disagree.
Our stance and disagreements are clear.
Powercreep was focused on specific areas depending on the characters concerned.
We will clearly not agree , if Katakuri's superiority in terms of speed and reaction is dubious according to you.

Reactions: Like 2


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## VileNotice (Dec 17, 2021)

Imo they are clearly the same level. Extreme diff either way.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Has he shown it though? Having a capacity to learn something doesn't mean he did. Otherwise sky walk would be a lot more common for all fighters in the setting.


I don't think it's unreasonable, Katakuri was described as the most capable of all of Linlin's children I doubt that his younger siblings would be able to do something that he couldn't. Frankly I'm surprised it isn't more common. Hell physically Nami can do it.



Sablés said:


> We've been talking about this move for a while already. There's no evidence that Katakuri's range extends to King's flight range.  It's not outlandish though so I can accept it. The real issue is the relatively weak AP.


I think the weak AP argument is overstated, Katakuri was demolishing Rubber Man Luffy with blunt force trauma, his attack power is plenty high. He's pushed Buso Hardening to its limit. Now if Haohshoku Infusion is required to damage King with his flame off then so be it. But Katakuri was already stronger than Gear Fourth



Sablés said:


> This is an awkward comparison. Luffy can  fly but he majorly fights in CQC, and this was a closed room. King can fly _and _take advantage of it in ways Luffy can't/doesn't. He was drawn to a sword battle with Zoro because he likes swords/duels apparently, but even that took a backseat to fear.


That's fair, but I don't think he'll gain much traction fighting Katakuri at range, as Future Sight would give him an amazing ability to avoid such attacks.


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## Corax (Dec 17, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> A basic aCoC strike is different from a named move though. Do you think Luffy right after he learned aCoC would instantly KO pre aCoC Zoro with one punch? King receiving heavy damage from an unnamed aCoC slice from Zoro doesn't mean he completely tanks anything that doesn't have aCoC even in speed mode.
> 
> Page One also while KOd likely didn't die from Big Mom's aCoC strike despite the vast disparity between them.
> 
> Except Marco had already used up stamina from his skirmish with Big Mom, healing a bunch of people and fought King and Queen together for a decent amount of time before King fought him 1v1. And Marco's already bounced back and is flying around again. You can't really ignore all those caveats.


Well basic aCoC attack is still a major attack (named or not). Kaido fell down and was coughing blood after a single strike,while Luffy was in his pure base form (non gears form).


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## TheWiggian (Dec 17, 2021)

Yep. King lost to Zoro of course he is weaker than Katakuri. In fact he has to be the weakest YC1/YRH.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Draffut (Dec 17, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 98 percent of the fight was luffy running away.
> 
> King is a Ancient Zoan his endurance is significantly higher then katakuris stop the cap



What are you talking about?  Jack is an Ancient Zoan therefor he has more endurance than Akainu?

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

Corax said:


> Well basic aCoC attack is still a major attack (named or not). Kaido fell down and was coughing blood after a single strike,while Luffy was in his pure base form (non gears form).


surviving but still taking heavy damage from a basic aCoC attack (King got sliced all the way up his torso) shouldn’t mean you take literally no damage from other attacks though. If that were the case Queen (someone with weaker AP feats than Katakuri, less hype, lower YC rank, etc…) rather than being high or mid diffed would be straight up low diffed by King which doesn’t seem reasonable.

The scabbards doing even superficial damage to Kaido also would make even less sense than it does already considering none of them have CoC let alone aCoC.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sablés (Dec 17, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I think the weak AP argument is overstated, Katakuri was demolishing Rubber Man Luffy with blunt force trauma, his attack power is plenty high. He's pushed Buso Hardening to its limit. Now if Haohshoku Infusion is required to damage King with his flame off then so be it. But Katakuri was already stronger than Gear Fourth


I'd say this is the crux of the matter. We've seen G4 Luffy match Katakuri's haki-clad punches and we saw Base Luffy take his  a barrage of his punches _without _haki. Luffy had better endurance. Everywhere else, I don't think there was much difference. G4 just stopped mattering when Kaido could no-sell it. The attacks Zoro launched while still developing Enma harmed Kaido but did nothing to King later on when his flames was out. CoC infused-blades from Zoro definitely hurt King without the flames, but it wasn't enough to end the fight or even close to it from the looks of things.

Being somewhat stronger than G4 doesn't cut it here.


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## Corax (Dec 17, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> surviving but still taking heavy damage from a basic aCoC attack (King got sliced all the way up his torso) shouldn’t mean you take literally no damage from other attacks though. If that were the case Queen (someone with weaker AP feats than Katakuri, less hype, lower YC rank, etc…) rather than being high or mid diffed would be straight up low diffed by King which doesn’t seem reasonable.
> 
> The scabbards doing even superficial damage to Kaido also would make even less sense than it does already considering none of them have CoC let alone aCoC.


King was cut 3 times in his speed form by nameless aCoC attacks (one cut his face and mask,another cut his torso and one cut his leg). Also I think it is much more dangerous to take aCoC nameless sword attack than nameless punch attack. So overall he isn't Kaido,but he has good endurance and durability even in speed form.


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

Corax said:


> King was cut 3 times in his speed form by nameless aCoC attacks (one cut his face and mask,another cut his torso and one cut his leg). Also I think it is much more dangerous to take aCoC nameless sword attack than nameless punch attack. *So overall he isn't Kaido,but he has good endurance and durability even in speed form.*


I’m not saying he doesn’t. I’m saying he shouldn’t be invulnerable to Katakuri’s attacks in that form. And in a long fight (which Kata’s shown he can do) that damage will add up over time.


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## Corax (Dec 17, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> I’m not saying he doesn’t. I’m saying he shouldn’t be invulnerable to Katakuri’s attacks in that form. And in a long fight (which Kata’s shown he can do) that damage will add up over time.


Well Kata accumulated around 100 punches or even more on Luffy. In the end it wasn't enough. I seriously doubt he would be even able to land 30 on speed version of King. And speed version of King is more durable than base Luffy (for the most part Luffy was in base vs Kata) and has more endurance.


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## xenos5 (Dec 17, 2021)

Corax said:


> Well Kata accumulated around 100 punches or even more on Luffy. In the end it wasn't enough. I seriously doubt he would be even able to land 30 on speed version of King. And speed version of King is more durable than base Luffy (for the most part Luffy was in base vs Kata) and has more endurance.


Even in Luffy’s fastest form (Snakeman) and AFTER obtaining his own FS he was still getting hit plenty of times by Kata (and that was also after Kata stabbed himself). Speed Mode King doesn’t have the trickiness of Jet Culverin constantly shifting or FS for his own counter attacks to not be avoided while he keeps getting hit.

King doesn’t have plot armor like Luffy as well.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Lmao (Dec 17, 2021)

It warms my heart that Katakuri is finally getting some respect around these parts 

King wins with very high difficulty, not quite extreme diff but not neg diff either (which used to be the norm whenever Kata's name would be mentioned).


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## Etherborn (Dec 17, 2021)

Future Sight is a hard counter to King’s ability tbh. Kata will know whenever King is about to switch modes in advance.

Reactions: Agree 11


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## convict (Dec 17, 2021)

Lmao said:


> It warms my heart that Katakuri is finally getting some respect around these parts
> 
> King wins with very high difficulty, not quite extreme diff but not neg diff either (which used to be the norm whenever Kata's name would be mentioned).



Kata vs King has had 3 other vs threads in the past few months and results have actually been surprisingly consistent at King winning 60% of votes.

The people who vote for Kats or who vote King never wavered


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## Bobybobster (Dec 17, 2021)

so now that we know king has a defence and speed mode, is his durability better than dragon scales in def mode?


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## OG sama (Dec 17, 2021)

Told people not to overreact over King, imagine thinking that Oda was going to have Luffy fight and beat the weakest FM, everything that went into that battle, what it meant for Luffy going forward, never facing a YC1 opponent ever again after his fight with Katakuri, after Luffy finally beat Kata, a guy he really should have lost ten times over to, was enough for Oda to have him go straight to fighting Yonkos after as the main big bosses , if there was some noteworthy gap in strength between Kata and King, Oda wouldn’t have done this.

With that being said, this fight is a complete toss up. Kata has his weaknesses and King has his for each other to exploit and it’s obvious, King being an ancient Zoan on top of being a lunarian has incredible durability as expected, taking at least two AdvCoC attacks straight up without being KOed.  King can be beaten when his durability is off if Katas intelligence and FS has any say so, which it does. Zoro was countering attacks from King and allowing him to land kicks so he could counter and this is a skill that we have seen Kata utilize on WCI when he was able to redirect G4 attacks. Those dragon flames aren’t hitting Kata easily, Zoro dodged the smaller one relatively easy, the scale of those dragon flames isn’t as big as I thought, they come with some very easy openings that Kata is going to easily see right through. King is going to have trouble landing hits, and the hits he’s probably fast enough to land won’t do as much damage as they won’t be enhanced by the fire as he can’t use the fire in speed form.

Oda knew exactly what he was doing by keeping things balanced between the two by  allowing King to have many weaknesses and have no AdvCoC of his own on top of super durability which would give him the undeniable advantage.

Toss up battle clearly, if this was written by Oda it’s a stalemate. If Kata transcends then he unlocks AdvCoC of his own and King loses. Two very powerful fighters who have earned the YC1 position if you ask me, no need to downplay one or the other. King has a fantastic design, cool powers, very strong, Kata too though I want to say it’s a fact that Kings design is a lot cooler and might just be the best on in the entire series imo.

Reactions: Like 12


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 17, 2021)

Draffut said:


> What are you talking about?  Jack is an Ancient Zoan therefor he has more endurance than Akainu?



Jack has higher endurance then Vista, Yassop, and Cracker, i would bet my balls on that

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Eustathios (Dec 17, 2021)

King high-very high diff.


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## Virus (Dec 17, 2021)

I'll give it to Katakuri tbh. More impressive than King. Future sight wins.


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## Draffut (Dec 17, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Jack has higher endurance then Vista, Yassop, and Cracker, i would bet my balls on that


Vista who matched Mihawk?  Cracker who fought a perpetual motion G4 Luffy for an entire night?  Yasoop in the crew that "everyone here is a monster with no weak links"?  Jack who just takes lines of L's every time he's on panel?

Come on now.  Lets be serious.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Dec 17, 2021)

Sablés said:


> I'd say this is the crux of the matter. We've seen G4 Luffy match Katakuri's haki-clad punches and we saw Base Luffy take his  a barrage of his punches _without _haki. Luffy had better endurance. Everywhere else, I don't think there was much difference. G4 just stopped mattering when Kaido could no-sell it. The attacks Zoro launched while still developing Enma harmed Kaido but did nothing to King later on when his flames was out. CoC infused-blades from Zoro definitely hurt King without the flames, but it wasn't enough to end the fight or even close to it from the looks of things.
> 
> Being somewhat stronger than G4 doesn't cut it here.


Enma and Zoro have one true cut on Kaido, and that was from Deadman's Game. He cut him with his Tatsumaki attack, but those cuts were about equivalent in effectiveness to the Scabbard's attacks. A swordsman of a certain level of skill, that knows the correct technique, can cut Kaido, but they can't cut him deep enough that it would overwhelm his durability and regen.

Which is the other crux. Kaido and King have insane durability and regen. Kaido is actually tougher on the durability, King has higher regen. King had to block Zoro's attacks with his wings, Kaido just face tanks everything because he's effectively invincible. It's difficult to make any kind of reasonable assessment of how tough or effective attacks against King really are because he just regens everything, even moreso than it is with Marco. But King's regen and durability has a limit. If you catch him with his flame out he can be harmed. There's a difference between harming either of them and doing meaningful damage. King is kind of like an inverse Cracker in a way. Cracker can be taken out with a single hit, King almost *has* to be taken out with a single hit or he'll regen.

But, there's no evidence that you *need* to use Haoshoku Infusion to do meaningful damage to King, it just happened to be the specific method that Zoro used to boost his strength. The fact that King had been weakened speaks to that. He wasn't losing strength because Zoro attacked him with one Haoshoku Infused attack, but because he had been fighting Marco and Zoro with his Buso Haki for all this time.

On the subject of Gear Fourth, I think calling it irrelevant is ridiculous. It was the wrong tool for the job. My observation is that Luffy can only use up to Barrier Buso Haki in Gear Fourth. Why? Because Luffy uses his Buso Haki to move in Gear Fourth, the higher level Buso Haki abilities use left over Buso Haki from around the body to generate their effect. In Gear Fourth there isn't enough left over Haki to go above barrier. Gear Third a more basic ability can use the Internal Destruction Buso Haki and that was able to damage Kaido. That isn't a mark for or against Gear Fourth's actual strength. You could hit Kaido with all of Onigashima and if it doesn't have at least Internal Destruction Haki or Haoshoku Infusion it's not going to leave a mark.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zouma (Dec 17, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> King high-very high diff.


Only if Zoro can beat Katakuri in 15 minutes which only exists in fan fiction. Replace Katakuri with King and Katakuri would blitz Zoro and would take more than several hours for Zoro to beat Katakuri.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 17, 2021)

Draffut said:


> Vista who matched Mihawk?  Cracker who fought a perpetual motion G4 Luffy for an entire night?  Yasoop in the crew that "everyone here is a monster with no weak links"?  Jack who just takes lines of L's every time he's on panel?
> 
> Come on now.  Lets be serious.



I feel like you trolling bro. 

All the Minks jumped Jack got clapped, then he fought Cat and Dog and got clapped. Then he fought dog again. 

Like Vista and Mihawk were fucking around and fought for like 3 mintues where mihawk did zero damage. Its a good fight of overall strength but nothing crazy endurance wise.

Yassop is a sharpshooter by default hes gonna have less endurance then a cqc fighter like jack let alone a Ancient Zone  

Cracker was one shot by Luffy bro stop plZ


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## blueframe01 (Dec 18, 2021)

If anything, this chapter pretty much puts King as the other side of the same coin as Katakuri. For weeks King was taunted by OL as someone even more durable than Kaido. Turns out that was OL head canon. King's incredible durability came with a caveat, one that makes him all too similar to Katakuri. where Katakuri was untouchable with his supreme CoO, King was the same with his durability. similarly, both of them had weakness that once exploited, made them beatable (albeit with some effort). 

Also, between both of them, I'd argue that it's harder to exploit Katakuri's weakness than King's. The birdman's weakness can be exploited by being a observant enough. whereas  Katakuri's weakness was exploited by pure happenstance. Its not often you'll end up seeing Katakuri's other personality and piss him off enough that he loses his ability to channel his FS. Also, it's not often that Katakuri ends up fighting with someone that reminded him so much of his old self that made him unnecessarily prolong his fight so much in the first place. 

More times than not, a fighter on equal standing will figure out King's weakness faster than Katakuri's IMO. But I'll consider both of them pretty much equal at this point

Reactions: Winner 1


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## convict (Dec 18, 2021)

blueframe01 said:


> If anything, this chapter pretty much puts King as the other side of the same coin as Katakuri. For weeks King was taunted by OL as someone even more durable than Kaido. Turns out that was OL head canon. King's incredible durability came with a caveat, one that makes him all too similar to Katakuri. where Katakuri was untouchable with his supreme CoO, King was the same with his durability. similarly, both of them had weakness that once exploited, made them beatable (albeit with some effort).
> 
> Also, between both of them, I'd argue that it's harder to exploit Katakuri's weakness than King's. The birdman's weakness can be exploited by being a observant enough. whereas  Katakuri's weakness was exploited by pure happenstance. Its not often you'll end up seeing Katakuri's other personality and piss him off enough that he loses his ability to channel his FS. Also, it's not often that Katakuri ends up fighting with someone that reminded him so much of his old self that made him unnecessarily prolong his fight so much in the first place.
> 
> More times than not, a fighter on equal standing will figure out King's weakness faster than Katakuri's IMO. But I'll consider both of them pretty much equal at this point



Except it is completely King's choice if he wants to stay in Durability mode so it isn't really a weakness. Even in full flame mode he has shown to be plenty fast and hit plenty hard. The reason he actually chose speed against Zoro is because even in super durability mode he started getting concerned that Zoro's top tier attack potential was a danger for him. Katakuri's attacks definitely will not be a threat to him in that mode so if King chooses to spam his magma and explosions while remaining durable Katakuri simply doesn't have a chance in hell as he can't hurt him back.

Additionally he has the option of choosing to go super speed mode against Katakuri in which case he will likely be so fast that he will indeed tag Katakuri at some point and even though his "weakness" is that he loses his durability he still is a first mate of a Yonkou who is an ancient Zoan and even then he withstood 2 advanced conqueror sword strikes from Zoro and remained standing. Attacks that are far stronger than anything Katakuri can dish out.

Katakuri is simply outclassed and King is too versatile and he has absolutely all the tools he needs to take Katakuri down. It is not a matter of if but when.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Optimistic 5


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## Quipchaque (Dec 18, 2021)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> FS + CoC + Awakening



Something he has in each battle yet if we were to ask you if he beats Mihawk for example you would say low or mid-diff for Mihawk..



blueframe01 said:


> For weeks King was taunted by OL as someone even more durable than Kaido. Turns out that was OL head canon. King's incredible durability came with a caveat,



so in other words we were right and he is more durable than Kaido. This is just you trying to sidestep the truth by shifting goal posts.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 18, 2021)

Katakuri is not a good match up for king.

Only Reason King ever needs to go speed mode is if someone has the attack power to hurt him in durability mode.

Which katakuri does not. Diced mochi is doing jack shit to King. He eats katas attack like nothing and wears him down over time.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Dec 18, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Katakuri is not a good match up for king.
> 
> Only Reason King ever needs to go speed mode is if someone has the attack power to hurt him in durability mode.
> 
> Which katakuri does not. Diced mochi is doing jack shit to King. He eats katas attack like nothing and wears him down over time.


He won’t even land hits on Kata in that form, everything he has gets dodged easily, King doesn’t have Snakemans speed + unpredictability, and even then Kata still managed to dodge a lot of attacks from Black Mamba as well.

Don’t sleep on Kata, only Zoro fans are downplaying Katakuri and everything it took for him to lose to Luffy, Oda found Katas strength acceptable enough for Luffy to never have to fight another YC1 again, that says a lot and people around here don’t realize that.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## convict (Dec 18, 2021)

Anyway because feats always favored King one of the biggest arguments against him was that he wasn't really "special" within his crew like Katakuri who was the de facto leader of the crew and one who clearly had portrayal above his peer commanders. That King was just another calamity albeit the strongest one. In fact, some arguing that he shared leadership with Queen.

But guess what? King is the only one between the two who is confirmed to be the right hand man and Katakuri is merely the unofficial second  so the portrayal aspect supporting Kats over King also goes down the window.

I think Oda made it pretty clear via bounties that lesser commanders like WW/Sasaki are inferior to their WCI counterparts. In those circumstances we all go by bounties but when the calamities surpass the SC's by 100s of millions then we start talking about how their "danger" is the only reason for that. It is pretty clear who Oda is pushing to be portrayed as stronger between King and Katakuri in pretty much every way. Feats, recognition, opponent (King's opponent would obliterate Katakuri's) etc.

I will shortly also talk about how King's offensive arsenal is far superior as well (defense doesn't need to be said).

Reactions: Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Dec 18, 2021)

My boy King was reaching his limit at the beginning of this chapter if the fan translation is correct. He's back on that Katakuri level certainly. I don't care who is stronger though, so I'll say theyre equal.


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## convict (Dec 18, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> My boy King was reaching his limit at the beginning of this chapter if the fan translation is correct. He's back on that Katakuri level certainly. I don't care who is stronger though, so I'll say theyre equal.



I think that is a translation issue it will be cleared up in viz.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (Dec 18, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Enma and Zoro have one true cut on Kaido, and that was from Deadman's Game. He cut him with his Tatsumaki attack, but those cuts were about equivalent in effectiveness to the Scabbard's attacks. A swordsman of a certain level of skill, that knows the correct technique, can cut Kaido, but they can't cut him deep enough that it would overwhelm his durability and regen.


Yeeah, that doesn't make sense. If they cut him, they passed his durability. Zoro and Killer couldn't even scratch Kaido at the beginning. So you either leave off with the Scabbards being strong enough for the task or their feats were an outlier. Regardless, the damage Kaido sustained was real and more impressive than not being able to hurt him at all.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Which is the other crux. Kaido and King have insane durability and regen. Kaido is actually tougher on the durability, King has higher regen. King had to block Zoro's attacks with his wings, Kaido just face tanks everything because he's effectively invincible. It's difficult to make any kind of reasonable assessment of how tough or effective attacks against King really are because he just regens everything, even moreso than it is with Marco. But King's regen and durability has a limit. If you catch him with his flame out he can be harmed. There's a difference between harming either of them and doing meaningful damage. King is kind of like an inverse Cracker in a way. Cracker can be taken out with a single hit, King almost *has* to be taken out with a single hit or he'll regen.


King was taking Zoro's attacks without damage with his flames on and that was his body, not just his wings. And  he was only wounded with them off. Zoro's final attack withstanding anyway.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> But, there's no evidence that you *need* to use Haoshoku Infusion to do meaningful damage to King, it just happened to be the specific method that Zoro used to boost his strength. The fact that King had been weakened speaks to that. He wasn't losing strength because Zoro attacked him with one Haoshoku Infused attack, but because he had been fighting Marco and Zoro with his Buso Haki for all this time.


I don't believe it's necessary either. You can hurt King if you're strong enough to or you can get passed his regeneration by depleting his stamina. My issue is the assumption that Katakuri can do this at all.

Speed mode or not speed mode, King can easily hurt Katakuri (if his attacks land) but would take irrelevant damage. King can just stay with his flames on and fight like that for the entire battle. There's nothing Katakuri would be able to do and he would just get worn over time


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## Ren. (Dec 18, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> *Spoiler*: __


This smells like the GTA pack ... yuck


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## Saitama (Dec 18, 2021)

I can’t answer this question. I will wait for the legacy remastered definitive edition DLC.


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## charles101 (Dec 18, 2021)

People keep saying that Katakuri was keeping up with G4 but that's kinda not true. Katakuri was dodging his atracks and i'm pretty sure Luffy hadn't dodged anything from him. Whenever their fists clashed Luffy ended up screaming or at least obviously hurt while there's no indication of pain on Katakuri's face. He even said "I'm faster and stronger than you." and it was after he saw Snakeman in action. Katakuri should've won this fight so saying now he's losing because WCI Luffy beat him doesn't add up. At least for me


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## Corax (Dec 18, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Even in Luffy’s fastest form (Snakeman) and AFTER obtaining his own FS he was still getting hit plenty of times by Kata (and that was also after Kata stabbed himself). Speed Mode King doesn’t have the trickiness of Jet Culverin constantly shifting or FS for his own counter attacks to not be avoided while he keeps getting hit.
> 
> King doesn’t have plot armor like Luffy as well.


Problem here isn't King's speed but his durability. Even in speed mode he was wounded only by aCoC attack. Base Luffy took the majority of Kata's attacks (likely 60 or 70 of 100) and still it wasn't enough to completely take him down. Obviously Kata won't be able to take down even speed mode by feats. Durability mode is outright immune to his attacks.


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## Perrin (Dec 18, 2021)

Have u seen Katakuri’s mouth?
He rips Kings throat out with his teeth

Reactions: Funny 4


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## charles101 (Dec 18, 2021)

Corax said:


> Problem here isn't King's speed but his durability. Even in speed mode he was wounded only by aCoC attack. Base Luffy took the majority of Kata's attacks (likely 60 or 70 of 100) and still it wasn't enough to completely take him down. Obviously Kata won't be able to take down even speed mode by feats. Durability mode is outright immune to his attacks.


People were saying same thing about Sanji vs Queen. Turned out Sanji was hurting him just fine. Katakuri doesn't have to oneshot him. Just dealing some damage is enough

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Corax (Dec 18, 2021)

charles101 said:


> People were saying same thing about Sanji vs Queen. Turned out Sanji was hurting him just fine. Katakuri doesn't have to oneshot him. Just dealing some damage is enough


Pre DNA he wasn't hurting him fine. I think Sanji even stated this several times. Post DNA he had to chain his finisher and use 10-chain Ifrite  attack to finish him.


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## charles101 (Dec 18, 2021)

Corax said:


> Pre DNA he wasn't hurting him fine. I think Sanji even stated this several times. Post DNA he had to chain his finisher and use 10-chain Ifrite  attack to finish him.


Thing is, he said that before that finisher. Meaning he was talking about fight before


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## Corax (Dec 18, 2021)

charles101 said:


> Thing is, he said that before that finisher. Meaning he was talking about fight before


He was referring to post DNA part of it. Pre DNA he commented 2-3 times  on how his attacks were overall ineffective.


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## gunchar (Dec 18, 2021)

Even not wanked King might still win, but the idea that Katakuri can't even hurt Speed Mode King is utterly ridiculous(King wouldn't get Luffy's thick plot armor).

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Eustathios (Dec 18, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> My boy King was reaching his limit at the beginning of this chapter if the fan translation is correct. He's back on that Katakuri level certainly. I don't care who is stronger though, so I'll say theyre equal.


King didn't really start fresh to be fair. He had to deal with Marco and the entirety of the Live Floor later on.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kanki (Dec 18, 2021)

I think it's a stalemate for large parts with King struggling to hit Katakuri, who does figure out King's abilities (he seems very smart) but perhaps lacks the fire power to put him out. 

Ultimately, King likely wins after an epic struggle.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Dec 18, 2021)

Corax said:


> He was referring to post DNA part of it. Pre DNA he commented 2-3 times  on how his attacks were overall ineffective.


He commented once, and that's only because Queen was pretending like he was fine and laughing at him. However, we the readers clearly saw that Sanji's kicks were hurting him; Sanji just realized his game and called him out on it.
He only landed Hells Memories post upgrade which doesn't align with the "we've been fighting for a while" line.

Everything we know now suggests that this was baloney ->


------------------------------------

The rough and clean scans suggest that King cannot continue much longer, but I'll wait for the Viz on that convo. Regardless, these are fucking King up even through his fire defense since Marco's knee drop could:

(large) Power Mochi


Mochi Thrust


Spike Mochi

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


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## The crazy hacker (Dec 18, 2021)

And exactly what makes Katakuri so impressive? he was comparable to a Luffy who was one shot by Kaido. King mid diffs.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> And exactly what makes Katakuri so impressive? he was comparable to a Luffy who was one shot by Kaido. King mid diffs.


what makes u think Kaido wount do that same to Zoro or King ?


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## The crazy hacker (Dec 18, 2021)

The fact that Zoros rooftop feats are better than Katas feats, King is stronger than that Zoro and now Zoro is stronger than King.

Zoro>King>RT Zoro>Kata.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Zouma (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> And exactly what makes Katakuri so impressive? he was comparable to a Luffy who was one shot by Kaido. King mid diffs.


Prove Luffy who was 1 shot by Kaido can even beat Cracker? That Luffy only spammed G4 didn't use FS.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 18, 2021)

@The crazy hacker better as in Zoro dodge a TB from Kaido ?


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## Zouma (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> The fact that Zoros rooftop feats are better than Katas feats, King is stronger than that Zoro and now Zoro is stronger than King.
> 
> Zoro>King>RT Zoro>Kata.


Zoro molested King in 15 minutes. Katakuri tied to FS+Snakeman Luffy. Zoro needs 2 days to beat Katakuri


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## The crazy hacker (Dec 18, 2021)

King was beating RT Zoro who has better feats than Kata.


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## Zouma (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> King was beating RT Zoro who has better feats than Kata.


Shusui Zoro low diffs King. Enma nerfed Zoro and Zoro only has to figure out King's weakness to beat him. ACoC Zoro needs 2 days to beat katakuri


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## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 18, 2021)

@The crazy hacker u said "And exactly what makes Katakuri so impressive? he was comparable to a* Luffy who was one shot by Kaido*. King mid diffs."
so, i am asking u again . What feat made RT Zoro immune to suffer the same fate as Luffy did vs TB ?


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## The crazy hacker (Dec 18, 2021)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> @The crazy hacker better as in Zoro dodge a TB from Kaido ?


scarring Kaido, and blocking hakai even for a second is better than anything Kata has done. RT Zoro>Katakuri.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Zouma (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> scarring Kaido, and blocking hakai even for a second is better than anything Kata has done. RT Zoro>Katakuri.


Scarring Kaido doesn't translate he has Snakeman speed and FS to hit Katakuri. Neko damaged Kaido yet he can't beat Pero within the time limit in sulong. With sneak attack advantage he got he got washed by Pero.


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## The crazy hacker (Dec 18, 2021)

So you think he can hit Kaido and King but not Katakuri?


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## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> scarring Kaido, and blocking hakai even for a second is better than anything Kata has done. RT Zoro>Katakuri.


again , u fail to give me the ans . U think Kata is weak cause Kaido one shooted Luffy with TB ? Right ?
So, show me were Kaido failed to one shot Zoro or King ( a YC1 just like Kata) with his TB .


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## Zouma (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> So you think he can hit Kaido and King but not Katakuri?


Pretty much. King and Kaido have pathetic CoO. Katakuri is the only YC1 who can dance with TB proven by Luffy dodging TB. You need TB speed to hit Katakuri. If your speed is lower than that then good luck hitting Katakuri.


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## Empathy (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> The fact that Zoros rooftop feats are better than Katas feats, King is stronger than that Zoro and now Zoro is stronger than King.
> 
> Zoro>King>RT Zoro>Kata.



Rooftop Zoro could’ve beaten King w/ Ashura.


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## Breadman (Dec 18, 2021)

Katakuri.

No I will not elaborate.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mrdude (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> And exactly what makes Katakuri so impressive? he was comparable to a Luffy who was one shot by Kaido. King mid diffs.


Don’t compare King to Kaido. It makes you look foolish. Thunder Bagua is Kaido’s signature move and his strongest attack which has taken out almost every person hit by it.  With the exception of Law who only survived it because Zoro took the hit first.

Kaido Vivre Card:


> _*“A full swing of the Kanabou/metal rod with black lightning. That's the power of a one-hit kill. (a picture of Kaidou one-shotting Luffy in Kuri)”*_

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## ClannadFan (Dec 18, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Don’t compare King to Kaido. It makes you look foolish. Thunder Bagua is Kaido’s signature move and his strongest attack which has taken out almost every person hit by it.  With the exception of Law who only survived it because Zoro took the hit first.
> 
> Kaido Vivre Card:


People gotta start putting some respect on Law's name. He tanked that shit, stop acting like he took some watered down version of it. It'd be one thing if Zoro was literally blocking it or something but nothing suggest his 2nd TB hit was weaker than the 1st one. If someone hits me with a bat, then runs over and hits you with a bat, both hits should hurt the same.

On topic I got King winning extreme diff. As many have said Kata doesn't have the AP to make him get out of his durability mode.


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## The crazy hacker (Dec 18, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Don’t compare King to Kaido. It makes you look foolish. Thunder Bagua is Kaido’s signature move and his strongest attack which has taken out almost every person hit by it.  With the exception of Law who only survived it because Zoro took the hit first.
> 
> Kaido Vivre Card:


The rooftop fighters where all capable of not being fodderised by Kaido which puts them at least as strong as Kata,(except maybe Killer) and Zoro the 2nd most impressive one was getting beaten up by King.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## blueframe01 (Dec 18, 2021)

convict said:


> Except it is completely King's choice if he wants to stay in Durability mode so it isn't really a weakness. Even in full flame mode he has shown to be plenty fast and hit plenty hard. The reason he actually chose speed against Zoro is because even in super durability mode he started getting concerned that Zoro's top tier attack potential was a danger for him. Katakuri's attacks definitely will not be a threat to him in that mode so if King chooses to spam his magma and explosions while remaining durable Katakuri simply doesn't have a chance in hell as he can't hurt him back.
> 
> Additionally he has the option of choosing to go super speed mode against Katakuri in which case he will likely be so fast that he will indeed tag Katakuri at some point and even though his "weakness" is that he loses his durability he still is a first mate of a Yonkou who is an ancient Zoan and even then he withstood 2 advanced conqueror sword strikes from Zoro and remained standing. Attacks that are far stronger than anything Katakuri can dish out.
> 
> Katakuri is simply outclassed and King is too versatile and he has absolutely all the tools he needs to take Katakuri down. It is not a matter of if but when.



Except, he is still forced to go into speed mode as its part of his fighting style. He isn't beating anyone his level by staying in Durability mode alone. if you check back the whole fight, it clear that every time King blows Zoro through walls, and even off the island (almost), it was all through his speed mode. the only time we was in his durability mode was when he was in close quarters sword fighting with Zoro (which Zoro handled rather well), or when he blocked 2 of Zoro's range attack (pound canon & dragon twister). So no, King isn't dealing any damage to Katakuri in durability mode just the same as Kata wont be able to deal much to King in that mode. 

In his Speed mode, Katakuri's FS and flexibility with his fruit will give him more ways to counter King than Zoro had IMO. Sure he doesn't have Zoro's firepower, But unlike Zoro, Katakuri doesn't have to take a hit before ditching out one to King. He can simply use his Power Motchis that he creates around him to hit King even before King reaches him. This will not only wear him out, but significantly reduces the damage Katakuri will take (at least compared to Zoro) in the fight. Also Katakuri may not have Zoro's overall lethality, but remember, he still used unrefined COC punches, which will definitely still damage King (in anything other than his durability mode). Sure, King withstood 2 stronger Coc strikes from Zoro, but how many strikes did Katakuri ditched out to a similar speedster with FS in Luffy? 

if anything, its Katakuri that has more tools to take down King as he is arguably the most versatile fighter in the series to date (Luffy usually is the  most versatile fighter, but even he got hard countered so badly by Katakuri). 

I'd maintain my stand that this will eventually go either way as both of them have the same standing in their crew, with opposite superiority (speed vs durability). But if I have to pick either, it's the guy with the most potential (CoC, CoA, CoO++, Awakening, and a super versatile fruit).


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2021)

even outside of the his lunarian OP durability mode which is the second coming of daz bones, king is still an ancient zoan so his speed mode durability and endurance should be assumed higher than katakuris. if not a lot higher.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## xenos5 (Dec 18, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> even outside of the his lunarian OP durability mode which is the second coming of daz bones, king is still an ancient zoan so his speed mode durability and endurance should be assumed higher than katakuris. if not a lot higher.


Feats > Assumptions though.

Kata using awakening for 12+ hours (and one of those hours after stabbing himself) when Law and Kid are massively winded after using their awakenings just once is a testament to Kata's stamina/endurance regardless of how you want to explain it. Especially when you consider that constantly infusing said awakening with armament haki like Kata did should only have increased the stamina cost. 

You'd pretty much have to assume there was a retcon and that awakening used practically no stamina previously for it to not be a massive feat for Kata to use awakening for so long. And there's no proof of such a retcon.

And like has been brought up earlier for defense Kata has Block Mochi/Power Mochi so he doesn't need to be as naturally durable. Blocking an attack with Power Mochi should stop it from ever reaching Katakuri so none of the force is reaching him that way as well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Feats > Assumptions though.
> 
> Kata using awakening for 12+ hours (and one of those hours after stabbing himself) when Law and Kid are massively winded after using their awakenings just once is a testament to Kata's stamina/endurance regardless of how you want to explain it. Especially when you consider that constantly infusing said awakening with armament haki like Kata did should only have increased the stamina cost.
> 
> You'd pretty much have to assume there was a retcon and that awakening used practically no stamina previously for it to not be a massive feat for Kata to use awakening for so long. And there's no proof of such a retcon.


nah. kings an ancient zoan and at least as powerful as katakuri.


xenos5 said:


> And like has been brought up earlier for defense Kata has Block Mochi/Power Mochi so he doesn't need to be as naturally durable. Blocking an attack with Power Mochi should stop it from ever reaching Katakuri so none of the force is reaching him that way as well.


didnt block mochi get overpowered by g4 luffy? as long as you have strong enough haki and are more powerful than g4, power mochi shouldnt be an issue.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Draffut (Dec 18, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> All the Minks jumped Jack got clapped, then he fought Cat and Dog and got clapped. Then he fought dog again.
> 
> Like Vista and Mihawk were fucking around and fought for like 3 mintues where mihawk did zero damage. Its a good fight of overall strength but nothing crazy endurance wise.
> 
> ...



Jack beat normal form minks? That's amazing. He must be Yonko tier.

Snipers in the real world have some of the best endurance out there. They can wait in hiding for days straight in the wild to take a shot. In the OPverse they would have significantly higher endurance. Especially one from the crew of "all monsters"

Cracker was "one shot" after his amazing endurance feat.  That doesn't mean the endurance feat never happened.


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## xenos5 (Dec 18, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> nah. kings an ancient zoan and at least as powerful as katakuri.


You can't give King stamina feats he doesn't have though. His specialization is durability with the back flames not in using his power efficiently to not waste energy. Marco despite being of a higher rank than Jozu doesn't have defense quite on the level of Jozu's diamond defense (he just more than makes up for that with his regen). King has just never fought an opponent while using a highly draining technique (awakening) and expending massive amounts of Haki for many hours the way Kata has.

And like I said before even if we were to generously assume King can spam his flame dragon (despite it seeming to be his ultimate technique) the same assumption would have to go to Katakuri being ale to spam his own ultimate technique. so he'd be spamming the Donut Mochi Mode and Diced Mochi that let him blitz Snakeman Luffy and has the same flame pattern haki as G4 and Big Mom (as well as Mochi Armament Spikes covering it that add to its lethality).



Shunsuiju said:


> didn't block mochi get overpowered by g4 luffy?


Kata's arm strength got overpowered but his Block Mochi arms never so much as cracked from the strikes either. And when clashing with Snakeman Luffy's fist the throbbing effect still occurred. The density of Block Mochi is no joke, the only other time we've seen the throbbing effect on armament since Katakuri being when Luffy tried to block Kaido's Kanabo is a testament to that.


Shunsuiju said:


> as long as you have strong enough haki and are more powerful than g4, power mochi shouldnt be an issue.


King has no feats really showing whas his haki can do though. It's practically an unknown compared to his other abilities. And Power Mochi on top of being a much larger version of Block Mochi shoots out at high speeds like a piston adding to its striking power.

It's worth bringing up the end of the fight is not the only time Luffy was KOd. Luffy was also KOd when he got hit by a barrage/gatling of Power Mochi (Mochi Ginchaku). Had Kata not been honorable (and focused on dealing with Flampe's interference) he could've killed Luffy right after KOing him then and there.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 18, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> The rooftop fighters where all capable of not being fodderised by Kaido which puts them at least as strong as Kata,(except maybe Killer) and Zoro the 2nd most impressive one was getting beaten up by King.


Not a single one of them was in a 1v1 fight with Kaido tho like Luffy was . So, anyone ( except may b Law ? ) Could have been one shooted by TB , we don't know that .

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ~Avant~ (Dec 18, 2021)

Katakuri would immobilize King with mochi and use future sight to counter him like Zoro but even more efficiently


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## The crazy hacker (Dec 19, 2021)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Not a single one of them was in a 1v1 fight with Kaido tho like Luffy was . So, anyone ( except may b Law ? ) Could have been one shooted by TB , we don't know that


Them being foderised based on what? If they were that weak they all would have gotten wrecked by Kaido and BM.

They are not as strong as AdCoC Luffy but strong enough to give him low diff at least.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 19, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> Them being foderised based on what? If they were that weak they all would have gotten wrecked by Kaido and BM.
> 
> They are not as strong as AdCoC Luffy but strong enough to give him low diff at least.


Luffy was the one who kept Kaido in check , he took all hybrid/human Kaidos 1on1 agro alone and Zoro took 0 . Zoro did not had to deal with TB cause Luffy was tanking that . So, I am not giving Zoro benefit of doubt specially considering he needed extreme diff to beat a YC1 1v1 .

Reactions: Agree 7


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## Mr. Black Leg (Dec 19, 2021)

Katakuri is the better fighter and more versatile. His Mochi can do literally anything and his Observation is no fucking joke, he's leagues beyond anything showed in the entirety of Wano in terms of Observation, it is generally accepted by us One Piece fans that the Yonko FM generally can have one thing that they are Yonko level and maybe even better than their captains, Katakuri's thing is his Observation no doubt. And he's not only smarter than Zoro by a pretty big margin, his Observation also helps him with figuring shit out (Remember that he caught on to Luffy's Snakeman punch in the third time it was used with his CoO, and Luffy was actively going for the blitz).

HAVING THAT SAID ... As much as I hate to say, King has the better stats all around, some of them are a little bit different (Speed, I'd say it's slightly above for King) and some of them there's just a massive difference (Durability), except for DC/Offensive capabilities in which I think they are generally in the same area. 

I'd say this is a 50/50 toss up and I'd give King a slight edge because of his impressive stats.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Etherborn (Dec 19, 2021)

Zoro did get hit by a Thunder Bagua at the same time Law did, and it was instant lights out for him. But that was when he was heavily injured already. He's never actually tanked any of Kaido's attacks when he was fresh or even in fighting condition, so we have no way of knowing if he could or couldn't. He blocked some of them mind you, but we need to recognize that this is not the same thing. His sword's durability is not his own. 

Zoro being able to damage Kaido but never having tanked one of his attacks successfully does not translate to King > Pre-Udon Luffy or King > Katakuri. It proves that Rooftop Zoro's attack power >> Pre-Udon Luffy's. But that's it. This is why focusing on single feats against an opponent whose attention was on someone else at the time is misleading. A 1v1 will always go much differently than a tag team. 

Also, Zoro's main issue during his fight with King was that it took a long time figuring out that King essentially has two "stat modes." He spent too much time attacking King in full durability mode and getting punished for it because he didn't know what was going on. Zoro himself acknowledged midway through that figuring out King's trick would be key to beating him. Katakuri will be able to do that without actually tanking those attacks, because he'll be able to visualize how his clashes with King will proceed before it happens, and react accordingly. He's going to figure it out a LOT faster than Zoro did, and from then on it's just a matter of using Future Sight to predict when King will switch.

Not even saying Kata wins here. King's durability in speed mode is still pretty impressive, and his attack power is all around superior to Kata's. King's biggest obstacle here is going to be landing hits on Kata, even when he's in speed mode, while Kata's biggest obstacle is going to be wracking up enough damage on King while he's vulnerable. When King is in his durability mode, the two are essentially in a stalemate; one won't be able to hit the other and one won't be able to damage the other. King has the advantage of deciding when this dynamic changes. Kata has the advantage of knowing when it will happen beforehand and being prepared for it. 

Could go either way imo.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 5 | Winner 1


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## convict (Dec 19, 2021)

blueframe01 said:


> Except,



I am not going to reply specifically to your every point as I don't plan to debate this anymore. This is pretty much my concluding thoughts on the topic now that the chapter is officially out.

There is no way Katakuri has any chance with all the tools King has at his disposal.

Firstly, look at durability. This was Gear 4 Luffy landing a hit on Katakuri despite Katakuri *even blocking that attack*:



He sent him flying:



And notably wounded after a couple of those:



And guess what? This is how Kaido tanked that version of G4 Luffy *in Human form* without even utilizing Haki:



He got up like nothing happened and oneshotted.

And this is what Zoro *before* *his powerup* was able to do to Kaido in *dragon* form:



And this is what Zoro says *after* *his powerup* about King:



So what is the conclusion? King in flame mode has notably superior durability to dragon Kaido and much more than human Kaido and he would laugh of WCI G4 attacks or Katakuri attacks just like Kaido did without need for Haki or anything. Katakuri absolutely cannot touch him. This is how strong Katakuri's power Mochi is:




Even with *G3 WCI Luffy.* Is that going to touch King even in speed mode who tanked AdvCoC Zoro multiple times? I know it is not his strongest attack as diced Mochi is but it is still a high end attack of his as it is his awakening.

Katakuri getting hurt even from base WCI Luffy:



After seeing how King manhandled Rooftop Zoro can you even imagine this exchange against base Luffy?

On the other hand for King's offense he has island level explosions that Zoro stated would have killed him if he didn't block. He can create giant magma dragons that will demolish Katakuri's mochi and are huge enough where dodging is difficult. Additionally, Katakuri has shown he can get flustered and doing 0 damage to King will get him flustered.

Even in speed mode King tanked attacks that are far far stronger than anything WCI G4 Luffy and Katakuri can dish out so he has that option to utilize to assist against Katakuri.

He has wind blades far stronger than Kaido's that send Zoro flying back. The same Zoro who temporarily held off Hakai. His flying winged attack overwhelmed post-Enma Zoro's tiger hunt:



Strength to send RT Zoro flying back in a swordclash:



Fast whip attacks that Zoro doesn't even bother defending etc.

It is not a matter of if he defeats Katakuri but when. With the difficulty coming from finally tagging him and putting him down. He will be completely unscathed after the fight even if it takes an hour which it might not. It won't be easy or anything but he has everything he needs. Blistering offense, crazy AoE, speed, and pretty much invulnerability to Katakuri's attacks in both modes.

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## ~Avant~ (Dec 19, 2021)

I honestly don’t think it’s a stretch to equate post Ryuo Luffy’s attack power to Katakuri using his trident.

And any speed advantage King might have will be negated by Awakened mochi. Hell, Katakuri could use mochi to stop King mid swing and take advantage to attack.

King has better durability for sure, but stamina and endurance both go to Katakuri.


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## Typhon (Dec 19, 2021)

Not only has dragon Kaidou jobbed the entire arc, notably weaker characters then Luffy have managed to injure him as well. Its borderline trolling to insist Katakuri doesn't have the AP to to injure King when it's been spelled out for you now that Kaidou and the All stars feel every hit, they just act like they haven't been taking damage.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## convict (Dec 19, 2021)

Typhon said:


> Not only has dragon Kaidou jobbed the entire arc, notably weaker characters then Luffy have managed to injure him as well. Its borderline trolling to insist Katakuri doesn't have the AP to to injure King when it's been spelled out for you now that Kaidou and the All stars feel every hit, they just act like they haven't been taking damage.



Ignore manga panels all you want to suit your needs. I pretty much gave all the evidence needed, as I said I won't go into it in detail more unless I see a good argument otherwise.


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## Typhon (Dec 19, 2021)

convict said:


> Ignore manga panels all you want.


Pot meet kettle

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## TheNirou (Dec 19, 2021)

King low diff, maybe mid at worst. 

The dude has AdvCoC, far better AP, far better durability and fought a far stronger opponent and can counter mochi with his own fire/magma. 

There is nothing Katakuri can doing here outisde stalling him with FS.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 6


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## MO (Dec 19, 2021)

convict said:


> Except it is completely King's choice if he wants to stay in Durability mode so it isn't really a weakness. Even in full flame mode he has shown to be plenty fast and hit plenty hard. The reason he actually chose speed against Zoro is because even in super durability mode he started getting concerned that Zoro's top tier attack potential was a danger for him. Katakuri's attacks definitely will not be a threat to him in that mode so if King chooses to spam his magma and explosions while remaining durable Katakuri simply doesn't have a chance in hell as he can't hurt him back.
> 
> Additionally he has the option of choosing to go super speed mode against Katakuri in which case he will likely be so fast that he will indeed tag Katakuri at some point and even though his "weakness" is that he loses his durability he still is a first mate of a Yonkou who is an ancient Zoan and even then he withstood 2 advanced conqueror sword strikes from Zoro and remained standing. Attacks that are far stronger than anything Katakuri can dish out.
> 
> Katakuri is simply outclassed and King is too versatile and he has absolutely all the tools he needs to take Katakuri down. It is not a matter of if but when.


you guys are always on about how king is super durability and how katakuri attacks can't do shit like that's a win condition? king is not in a million years landing on hit on katakuri.  He speed form isn't near fast enough if Zoro can react to that shit. He can stay in durability mode if he wants but he isn't doing anything to katakuri either. And getting through kings durability will be easier for katakuri than king getting through katakuri's Coo.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Disagree 3


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## LaniDani (Dec 19, 2021)

King doesn't have even coc,let alone advance coc.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Dec 19, 2021)

Katakuri has ACoO and CoC advantage, but alas we are gonna wank King to hype up Zoro.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Chronophage (Dec 19, 2021)

Kishido said:


> What about DoFla vs King


Stop making Doflamingo fans look more terrible than they actually are. I get Doffy vs. Cracker or Jack threads to some degree but Doffy vs. Any FM is neg + permaban worthy.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mylesime (Dec 19, 2021)

Claiming that King is invulnerable against Katakuri because the latter doesn't possess advanced CoC is as ridiculous as claiming that King can't lay a finger on Katakuri because the former doesn't possess advanced CoO.
We're talking about two first mates here, none of them is getting out of a confrontation unscathed.......

Reactions: Agree 4


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## xenos5 (Dec 19, 2021)

TheNirou said:


> King low diff, maybe mid at worst.
> 
> *The dude has AdvCoC,* far better AP, far better durability and fought a far stronger opponent and can counter mochi with his own fire/magma.
> 
> There is nothing Katakuri can doing here outisde stalling him with FS.


I can respect someone who thinks King wins. This is honestly a debatable matchup.

What I can’t respect is blatant dishonesty in an argument. King never showed even basic CoC let alone the advanced version. So don’t try to lie about something so obvious.

Reactions: Agree 9 | Funny 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 19, 2021)

TheNirou said:


> King low diff, maybe mid at worst.
> 
> The dude has AdvCoC, far better AP, far better durability and fought a far stronger opponent and can counter mochi with his own fire/magma.
> 
> There is nothing Katakuri can doing here outisde stalling him with FS.


Who wants to bet that the guy who liked this shit didn't even read the rest of the post?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Baroxio (Dec 19, 2021)

convict said:


> I am not going to reply specifically to your every point as I don't plan to debate this anymore. This is pretty much my concluding thoughts on the topic now that the chapter is officially out.
> 
> There is no way Katakuri has any chance with all the tools King has at his disposal.
> 
> ...


Chapter 923 Pre-Udon Luffy made Dragon Kaido's eyes go white with Gear 3 Elephant Gun and Elephant Gatling knocked his ass out the sky. Freaking Momo can damage Dragon Kaido; it's easily his weakest form (or at the very least, the form in which he jobs the most). Blood slashes don't mean much either, since we know from Kaido that it didn't even leave a scar (only Ashura did). The same thing actually happens with King, where we visually see Zoro inflict some blood slashes on King, only to be told later that Zoro dealt zero damage.

As for Gear 4 vs Human Kaido, do note that Kaido had just gotten up prior to this, and was knocked back onto the ground from Kong Organ. It's not like the attack didn't affect him at all (on the contrary, it put him back on the ground), it just didn't inflict serious enough damage.

Also notable is that this is the form he transformed into after Luffy beat up his Dragon form with Gear 3, suggesting once again that Human Kaido >> Dragon Kaido. Luffy subconsciously acknowledges this by shifting out of Gear 3 and into Gear 4 immediately as Kaido shifts out of Dragon form and into human form, which also suggests that Human Kaido is a bigger threat than Dragon Kaido.

I don't give a darn about Katakuri or King either way, I just wanted to set the record straight. You made the assumption that Dragon Kaido's durability is greater than Human Kaido's durability (_"King in flame mode has notably superior durability to dragon Kaido *and much more* than human Kaido"_), and I'm just here to tell you that it's a shit assumption not backed up by the manga.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 19, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> Chapter 923 Pre-Udon Luffy made Dragon Kaido's eyes go white with Gear 3 Elephant Gun and Elephant Gatling knocked his ass out the sky.


Ch 1023 Death Lion song also made King's eyes go white, but we know for a fact that it did literally 0 damage to him. 
White eyes =// = damage taken. Both Kaido and Luffy said that Pre-udon Luffy did 0 damage to Kaido. It's not up to debate. Dragon Kaido no-sold G4.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 19, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> I don't give a darn about Katakuri or King either way, I just wanted to set the record straight.* You made the assumption that Dragon Kaido's durability is greater than Human Kaido's durability* (_"King in flame mode has notably superior durability to dragon Kaido *and much more* than human Kaido"_), and I'm just here to tell you that it's a shit assumption not backed up by the manga.


That's a perfectly normal assumption to make. Beast forms are most similar to the animal or creature, human forms are the least similar and hybrid's are combining the best elements of each. The beast form of a dragon user should have the highest durability and strength and the lowest mobility due to it's size.


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## Typhon (Dec 19, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> That's a perfectly normal assumption to make. Beast forms are most similar to the animal or creature, human forms are the least similar and hybrid's are combining the best elements of each. The beast form of a dragon user should have the highest durability and strength.


Kaidou isn't human though and has tanking feats just as good if not better then his dragon form.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 19, 2021)

Typhon said:


> Kaidou isn't human though


His durability comes from his scales.


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## AmitDS (Dec 19, 2021)

It's just so funny to me that after all the stupid King wanking and people placing him above Katakuri and even Marco (EVEN close to Kaido), that now, like every other sword boi FOTM hot take, this is the outcome weeks after. 

Anyone with a brain could have told you all, and yes most of us did, that the YC Zoro and even Sanji fight will never be above the one Luffy fought, struggled with and bonded with, but nooo. 

Now look at what we got. Katakuri got to have CoC and awakening while King hasn't even shown us any good haki skills with basic stuff like armament lol he doesn't even have the qualities of a conqueror it seems. His Lunarian lineage was a dud exposition wise because his flashback was just about following and wanking Kaido lol.

Now, whether you want to admit it or not, subconsciously, Katakuri is looking better and people don't know what to do about it. 
It's not coincidence that so many posts about Katakuri being his equal or superior are popping up now here, and all over the net. 

Dies*

On _their_ thrones, Katakuri _and_ Marco remain. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




And I'm not even claiming that King < Katakuri like how others were claiming that King > Katakuri & Marco. You're welcome.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Tenma (Dec 20, 2021)

man people really dropped doffy like a sack of bricks the moment cracker could be even _somewhat_ scaled above him,

but with kata in spite of him being thoroughly powercrept on the rooftop y'all got really attached huh 

Not sure how King got 'exposed' last chapter as well- in the end Zoro required a huge powerup- on top of his powerup entering Onigashima- to overcome him, and he still put up a valiant struggle.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sablés (Dec 20, 2021)

Typhon said:


> Not only has dragon Kaidou jobbed the entire arc


A blatant lie in attempt to downplay.
Dragon Kaido has bad showings for 1 vs 1 but its durability is not beneath human Kaido, who has shrugged off multiple blows and gears from Luffy. The first time he genuinely showed interest in Luffy as an opponent was when Luffy made him bleed with Red Rock.


Typhon said:


> notably weaker characters then Luffy have managed to injure him as well.


Which ones? Can you back this up with evidence that their AP was below Luffy's?


Typhon said:


> Its borderline trolling to insist Katakuri doesn't have the AP to to injure King when it's been spelled out for you now that Kaidou and the All stars feel every hit, they just act like they haven't been taking damage.


Non-argument. Katakuri has no feats to suggest he can harm Kaido, and putting the "all stars" in the same bracket as if King's durability doesn't tower over his peers is asinine.

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## Tenma (Dec 20, 2021)

It's also weird as hell how the same people dissing King for not having CoC or Awakening also have no problem exulting Marco and the WBP in other threads as the strongest.

I myself place Marco decisively above King and of course Katakuri, 'cause I have no problems accepting his superior feats in spite of his lacking haki/DF feats, so I don't get why people are so much more obtuse when it comes to King. It can't be that difficult to maintain a consistent position.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Typhon (Dec 20, 2021)

Sablés said:


> A blatant lie in attempt to downplay.
> Dragon Kaido has bad showings for 1 vs 1 but its durability is not beneath human Kaido, who has shrugged off multiple blows and gears from Luffy. The first time he genuinely showed interest in Luffy as an opponent was when Luffy made him bleed with Red Rock.


So you call me a liar and agree with me in the same post lol



Sablés said:


> Which ones? Can you back this up with evidence that their AP was below Luffy's?


Kawamatsu pulled off the same cut and leave Kaido coughing up blood that Zoro did. Kiku and Izo drew blood as well. The only two Scabbards you could even argue have greater AP then Luffy at that time is the Sulong Minks


Sablés said:


> Non-argument. Katakuri has no feats to suggest he can harm Kaido, and putting the "all stars" in the same bracket as if King's durability doesn't tower over his peers is asinine.


I see you're just looking to argue since that had nothing to do with the point I made.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 20, 2021)

Whimsy said:


> Katakuri has the most obvious upgrade in the world if Oda wants to push him up a level when he returns though


If Oda gave him acoc because he leveled up his leadership by becoming the true head of one of the world’s great pirate crews I wouldn’t be mad now that you put it this way


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## Baroxio (Dec 20, 2021)

Sablés said:


> A blatant lie in attempt to downplay.
> Dragon Kaido has bad showings for 1 vs 1 but its durability is not beneath human Kaido, who has shrugged off multiple blows and gears from Luffy. The first time he genuinely showed interest in Luffy as an opponent was when Luffy made him bleed with Red Rock.
> 
> Which ones? Can you back this up with evidence that their AP was below Luffy's?
> ...


Name a _single_ attack that Dragon Kaido has taken better than Human Kaido. 

Go on. I'll wait.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sablés (Dec 20, 2021)

Typhon said:


> So you call me a liar and agree with me in the same post lol


Nah, I'm calling you a liar because your post is simply disingenuous. Dragon Kaido has poor feats for 1 vs 1. The mode is mainly for environmental destruction, which it actually accomplished in the fights against the Scabbards and the R5. You are extrapolating its usefulness to durability (or lack thereof), where...it has absolutely every reason to be tougher than human Kaido. And certainly nothing implies that it _isn't._


Typhon said:


> Kawamatsu pulled off the same cut and leave Kaido coughing up blood that Zoro did. Kiku and Izo drew blood as well. The only two Scabbards you could even argue have greater AP then Luffy at that time is the Sulong Minks


You talking about the same scabbards who _also _made Human Kaido bleed with casual attacks? Maybe you should have thought this through and considered that they may just be that strong instead of this non-sequitur.






Baroxio said:


> Name a _single_ attack that Dragon Kaido has taken better than Human Kaido.


Spare me this attempt at wrangling the argument in a preferable direction for you.

Dragon Kaido's toughness comes from its scales, which was the most pronounced aspect of Kaido's durability in the rooftop battle and later in Zoro vs King. Luffy made Human Kaido bleed with Red Rock. He was throwing G4 techniques front and center, while combo-ing with his allies, and none of them did anything more than superficial damage until Luffy spent every bit of haki into downing Kaido. Then Zoro managed to damage Kaido's scales, which surprised both Killer and Big Mom despite everything Kaido had taken up until that point.

For a more direct comparison, the above. Kaido can get pierced by ordinary Scabbard attacks in base. Dragon Kaido was taking techniques and Sulong moves for the same minor injury, if not less. They replicated Oden's signature move and all it did was "barely" reopen the old scar.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Typhon (Dec 20, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Nah, I'm calling you a liar because your post is simply disingenuous. Dragon Kaido has poor feats for 1 vs 1. The mode is mainly for environmental destruction, which it actually accomplished in the fights against the Scabbards and the R5. You are extrapolating its usefulness to durability (or lack thereof), where...it has absolutely every reason to be tougher than human Kaido. And certainly nothing implies that it _isn't._


_Except the fact that Oni Kaido has taken just as bad if not worse attacks then Dragon Kaidou including a combo from Luffy & Yamato and was still good to go, but I'm being disingenuous   _


Sablés said:


> You talking about the same scabbards who _also _made Human Kaido bleed with casual attacks? Maybe you should have thought this through and considered that they may just be that strong instead of this non-sequitur.


So basically what I'm taking from this is that the crux of your argument is trying to imply the Scabbards are stronger then WCI Luffy and I don't feel I have to go that in depth with how ridiculous you sound when Kaido jobbing is just more likely. Even Zoro couldn't just sink his swords into base Kaidou with a signature move and he did a combo attack with Killer...


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## Sablés (Dec 20, 2021)

Typhon said:


> Except the fact that Oni Kaido has taken just as bad if not worse attacks then Dragon Kaidou including a combo from Luffy & Yamato and was still good to go, but I'm being disingenuous


Kaido fought Yamato in hybrid nearly the entire time.
Not sure what point you're trying to make with Luffy.


Typhon said:


> So basically what I'm taking from this is that the crux of your argument is trying to imply the Scabbards are stronger then WCI Luffy and I don't feel I have to go that in depth with how ridiculous you sound when Kaido jobbing is just more likely. Even Zoro couldn't just sink his swords into base Kaidou with a signature move and he did a combo attack with Killer...


Man, are you listening to your clown antics?

I didn't bring up the Scabbards, *you did* as an argument against Dragon Kaido


Typhon said:


> Kawamatsu pulled off the same cut and leave Kaido coughing up blood that Zoro did. Kiku and Izo drew blood as well. The only two Scabbards you could even argue have greater AP then Luffy at that time is the Sulong Minks



Why are you now pretending it doesn't count when it turns out they can harm Human Kaido with ease and your entire argument falls flat on its face? This is why I called you disingenuous. There's no integrity in your claims.

Either accept the Scabbards' AP are that high  (and above Luffy/Zoro by feats), that Dragon Kaido's durability is at minimum comparable to human form, and likely tougher by all accounts, or drop the argument completely. In which case, you're left with the same dilemma - No proof whatsoever that DK is less durable.  You don't get to cherry-pick.

My stance? It happened. The narrative makes a big deal out of them being able to cut Kaido. Same narrative made a deal of the R5 being incapable of cutting or wounding Kaido in the initial phases of the battle, discounting  Post-Udon Luffy. It is no outlier, so deal with it.


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## Typhon (Dec 20, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Kaido fought Yamato in hybrid nearly the entire time.
> Not sure what point you're trying to make with Luffy.
> 
> Man, are you listening to your clown antics?
> ...




I've been consistent from the start. I said notably weaker characters hurt Kaidou, i.e he was jobbing and shouldn't be used as some baseline for what it would take to injure King.  And the only counter you could try and make is that the Scabbards are all basically top tiers as an attempt to downplay Luffy and Katakuri.

You keep ducking arguments to focus on what you think is right, but I'm being disingenuous

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (Dec 20, 2021)

Typhon said:


> I've been consistent from the start. I said notably weaker characters hurt Kaidou, i.e he was jobbing and shouldn't be used as some baseline for what it would take to injure King.  And the only counter you could try and make is that the Scabbards are all basically top tiers as an attempt to downplay Luffy and Katakuri.
> 
> You keep ducking arguments to focus on what you think is right, but I'm being disingenuous


Nothing says notably weaker characters lack the power to harm stronger ones or can't have more AP than stronger ones. It all depends on the individual. You used the Scabbards as evidence of Dragon Kaido specifically jobbing, but the same applied to Human Kaido who got hurt even more easily. There's no sidestepping this. Dragon form is tougher. Scabbards had more AP than Zoro and Luffy initially. That simple and your argument from belief does nothing against it.

So how about actually using Katakuri's feats that supposedly prove he has as much firepower as the characters who have actually managed to harm Kaido at this point. Probably a more honest approach compared to engaging in mental gymnastics and cherry-picking of feats to align with your selective powerscaling. It ain't hard

Reactions: Winner 4


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## AmitDS (Dec 20, 2021)

I find it ironic that in the same arc that Oda emphasized the importance of haki (AdCoA & AdCoC) he also failed to give the main villain's top fighters any noteworthy haki feats/hype lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Baroxio (Dec 20, 2021)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kaido explicitly mention that the reason the Scabbards were able to hurt him was due to them being able to connect with some of Oden's Haki left in his old wound? 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Or does that just get ignored because it might diminish/dehype Zoro's feats with Oden's sword, Enma?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (Dec 20, 2021)

Nothing of the sort was said, so you're extrapolating, wrong, and corrected.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Baroxio (Dec 21, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Nothing of the sort was said, so you're extrapolating, wrong, and corrected.






Guess I stand correct, not corrected.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (Dec 21, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> Guess I stand correct, not corrected.


Please tell me where it's "explicitly" stated in that text that the Nine Scabbards "connected with Oden's Ryou"  and used that to harm Kaido? As if there is such a thing as lingering haki that lasts 20 years and makes characters easier to harm. But I guess these mental gymnastics are easier for you people to stomach than the scabbards literally just being taught it by Oden as we saw in the flashback scene and Kaido reacting to the familiar power.

Somehow I also know you're going to try to sell the nonsense that Enma draws out Oden's haki instead of Zoro's.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Sablés (Dec 21, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> _explicitly_


You don't know the meaning of the word. Write out the explicit line where Kaido says that Oden's lingering Ryou let them hurt him.  Mixing up headcanon with the facts, m8?


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## Baroxio (Dec 21, 2021)

Sablés said:


> You don't know the meaning of the word. Write out the explicit line where Kaido says that Oden's lingering Ryou let them hurt him.  Mixing up headcanon with the facts, m8?


*Kaido*: My wound from Oden? 
*Kaido*: Pain...?! Why? Why are the blades piercing through?! Are those bastards...using Oden's Ryou? 

I post the actual manga panels, and you have the audacity to tell me that I'm mixing up headcanon with facts. I literally don't see how it gets any more explicit than this. Are you a special needs child? If not, then I'm curious. What exactly is _*your*_ interpretation of Kaido's words here? Words are hard, I know. But please do try to read them. Look, there are even pretty pictures next to them!

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sablés (Dec 21, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> *Kaido*: My wound from Oden?
> *Kaido*: Pain...?! Why? Why are the blades piercing through?! Are those bastards...using Oden's Ryou?
> 
> I post the actual manga panels, and you have the audacity to tell me that I'm mixing up headcanon with facts. I literally don't see how it gets any more explicit than this. Are you a special needs child? If not, then I'm curious. What exactly is _*your*_ interpretation of Kaido's words here? Words are hard, I know. But please do try to read them. Look, there are even pretty pictures next to them!


I repeat: you have no idea what the word explicit means, so I'll tell you what it means. An explicit statement leaves no room for ambiguity. It says exactly what you claim it does, without any further interpretation.

Akainu saying that his magma burns hotter than fire and using that advantage to kill Ace, is an explicit statement.
Akainu saying Kizaru shouldn't enter Wano because the samurai could be too strong for the admirals to deal with, is an extrapolation of what the man actually said.

Your claims are in the latter group, an interpretation. Breaking it down.

Kaido gets PTSD before he's even freaking hit.



And why wouldn't he? These are the vassals and remnants of the man who still gives Kaido nightmares to this day. This has nothing to do with the 9 scabbards interconnecting with some bullshit remnant of Ryou that is never stated to exist, nor can it be explained to have enhanced their attacks. This is Kaido's own trauma coming into play because they are symbols of Oden and use the same power as him. You extrapolated that obvious point to suit your improbable agenda, but even that falls flat on its face too.

If Kaido somehow gets easier to harm (he doesn't) then all this means is that the Scabbards Ryou had additional effects against Kaido. Both forms of Kaido. So this would not change the fact that Dragon Kaido still took far more impressive technique than Human Kaido for the same piddling amount of damage.

TLDR: Scabbards aren't using "Oden's Ryou inside Kaido's scar" to harm him. They use Oden's Ryou and that caliber of technique was able to harm Kaido.


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## Baroxio (Dec 21, 2021)

Sablés said:


> I repeat: you have no idea what the word explicit means, so I'll tell you what it means. An explicit statement leaves no room for ambiguity. It says exactly what you claim it does, without any further interpretation.
> 
> Akainu saying that his magma burns hotter than fire and using that advantage to kill Ace, is an explicit statement.
> Akainu saying Kizaru shouldn't enter Wano because the samurai could be too strong for the admirals to deal with, is an extrapolation of what the man actually said.
> ...


So, after talking shit about mixing headcanon and facts, you bring this bullshit. 

"Kaido gets PTSD," "This is Kaido's own trauma coming into play!"

 A.) Where is this _*explicitly*_ stated, Mr. Explicit?  

B.) Even if we assume your premise is true, so what? Are you honestly arguing here that Oden PTSD is decreasing his durability? And that said PTSD is only coming into play with his men as symbols of Oden...but not his own fucking sword that he used to inflict said trauma? Is that your argument here? Is that your excuse to differentiate Zoro from the rest of the Scabbards? 

Moving forward, with one breath you say "[The Scabbards] use the same power as [Oden]" and "[The Scabbards] use Oden's Ryou", but then with the next you say that Oden's remnant of Ryou is never stated to exist. Do...do you just not know what the fuck Ryou is? Cuz if you did, you'd realize that these are fucking contradictory terms. Ryou isn't a technique; Ryou is just another term for Haki. Are you honestly suggesting that the Scabbards are *generating* Oden's Haki? Seriously? 

Occam's Razor, dude. Kaido wonders how the Scabbards can hurt him, the page points to his scar, and he connects it to The Scabbards using Oden's Ryou. Saying that there's remnants of Oden's Ryou in Kaido's scar is a lot less of a jump than saying that the Scabbards are _generating_ Oden's Ryou. 

As for the last point, no Dragon Kaido did not take their attacks better than Human Kaido. In the above image, they barely manage to pinprick him, stabbing about an inch deep. In Dragon Form, they leave a full X mark on his fucking chest, same as Oden did. Now at the end of the day, neither dealt a shit ton of damage to Kaido. And in honesty, Pre-Udon Luffy's Gear 3 attacks didn't deal a shit ton of damage to Dragon Kaido either. But it's insane to look at the amount of damage dealt and ever say that Dragon Kaido took the attacks better. That's just a fucking lie. 

It's obvious who the one with the Agenda is here, and it ain't fucking me.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sablés (Dec 21, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> A.) Where is this _*explicitly*_ stated, Mr. Explicit?


More like where it's "explicitly" shown and that's the constant references he has to Oden, before and after getting stabbed. Including his obsession throughout the arc with the man. But hey, try to deflect all you want. The one claiming "explicits" here is you, not me 



Baroxio said:


> Are you honestly arguing here that Oden PTSD is decreasing his durability?


No, I'm not. I'm arguing that Kaido's trauma is just that, a trauma. It has no influence on his durability. Ryuou gives off the same aura as Oden's and that, in addition to the return of his old enemies, triggered Kaido's memories.


Baroxio said:


> Oden's remnant of Ryou is never stated to exist,


You might want to pay attention then.

You claimed that the scabbard's ryuou somehow made Kaido easier to hurt by connecting to the scar. Bullshit that was stated nowhere. The Scabbards have their own Ryyou that was taught by Oden , a type of haki that gives off that aura, and that was able to hurt Kaido. Not some lingering aura that's inside Kaido that nerfs his durability whenever external Ryuou hits his body.




Baroxio said:


> As for the last point, no Dragon Kaido did not take their attacks better than Human Kaido.


Yes he did.

Kaido got pierced, put on his knees by casual attacks, even gripping the wounds so they clearly affected him. Dragon Kaido was taking  those minor injuries from Sulong transformations and named techniques, which always dominate casual/base movements. So yes, DK is tougher than human Kaido. Because he has fucking dragon scales on top of that body.


Baroxio said:


> It's obvious who the one with the Agenda is here, and it ain't fucking me.





Baroxio said:


> Or does that just get ignored because it might diminish/dehype Zoro's feats with Oden's sword, Enma?


No, it's fucking you.


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## GiantForehead (Dec 21, 2021)

After the latest chapter, it's clear that King has *no way* of beating Katakuri. King seems no faster than Snakeman, a form which Katakuri kept up with. I honestly doubt he's faster than Boundman, since Zoro is no speedster yet kept up with moderate difficulty.

The most important thing shown is that King has no way of getting past FS. I admit I thought he would have AdCoA or Coc, but he seems to have neither.

Katakuri takes him cleanly

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 21, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> After the latest chapter, it's clear that King has *no way* of beating Katakuri. King seems no faster than Snakeman, a form which Katakuri kept up with. I honestly doubt he's faster than Boundman, since Zoro is no speedster yet kept up with moderate difficulty.
> 
> The most important thing shown is that King has no way of getting past FS. I admit I thought he would have AdCoA or Coc, but he seems to have neither.
> 
> Katakuri takes him cleanly


Kaido could get around FS. Why couldn't King?


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## GiantForehead (Dec 21, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Kaido could get around FS. Why couldn't King?


Why could he? He isn't Kaido to be fair


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## xenos5 (Dec 21, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Kaido could get around FS. Why couldn't King?


King’s fastest technique (imperial stake I think the name was) was still dodged by Zoro the very first time it was used despite Zoro having no FS. So either that technique was way too telegraphed that Zoro didn’t need high level CoO to see it coming, or it just wasn’t fast enough that you even need FS to dodge it.

So King’s fastest move still pales in comparison to Kaido’s Thunder Bagua. Thunder Bagua is the move Kaido uses to blitz, and one Luffy couldn’t completely dodge even when using FS.

King in Speed Mode is at best as fast as Snakeman Luffy (though not really any proof for that) who rather than being able to blitz Katakuri could only land his attacks by confusing Kata with Jet Culverin’s acceleration at each turn. The trickiness of Snakeman AND Luffy having his own FS by that point was just as if not more essential than the sheer speed of the form.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Chronophage (Dec 21, 2021)

Extreme diff either way. Leaning towards King.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 21, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> King’s fastest technique (imperial stake I think the name was) was still dodged by Zoro the very first time it was used despite Zoro having no FS. So either that technique was way too telegraphed that Zoro didn’t need high level CoO to see it coming, or it just wasn’t fast enough that you even need FS to dodge it.
> 
> So King’s fastest move still pales in comparison to Kaido’s Thunder Bagua. Thunder Bagua is the move Kaido uses to blitz, and one Luffy couldn’t completely dodge even when using FS.
> 
> King in Speed Mode is at best as fast as Snakeman Luffy (though not really any proof for that) who rather than being able to blitz Katakuri could only land his attacks by confusing Kata with Jet Culverin’s acceleration at each turn. The trickiness of Snakeman AND Luffy having his own FS by that point was just as if not more essential than the sheer speed of the form.


So then my next question is, how does King fight Katakuri?


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## xenos5 (Dec 21, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> So then my next question is, how does King fight Katakuri?


By trying to overwhelm him with AOE attacks like the flame dragon I guess. Though that could end up draining his stamina more than fighting normally, and it’s still possible to dodge them or counter them even thought it may take more effort than against a normal attack.

Or in the early part of the fight when Kata still hasn’t figured out King’s weakness yet I’ll admit it would be possible for Kata to go in close for a Melee attack (though it’s more likely for him to just stretch his arm rather than getting that close), and get countered when King in Back Flame Mode endures it and fires off his own attack before Kata can retract his arm. But Kata endured attacks from Boundman Luffy so taking a hit or two in the early stages of the fight due to King exploiting the lack of knowledge Kata would have of his invulnerability with the flame is not game-breaking in any way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 21, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> By trying to overwhelm him with AOE attacks like the flame dragon I guess. Though that could end up draining his stamina more than fighting normally, and it’s still possible to dodge them or counter them even thought it may take more effort than against a normal attack.
> 
> Or in the early part of the fight when Kata still hasn’t figured out King’s weakness yet I’ll admit it would be possible for Kata to go in close for a Melee attack (though it’s more likely for him to just stretch his arm rather than getting that close), and get countered when King in Back Flame Mode endures it and fires off his own attack before Kata can retract his arm. But Kata endured attacks from Boundman Luffy so taking a hit or two in the early stages of the fight due to King exploiting the lack of knowledge Kata would have of his invulnerability with the flame is not game-breaking in any way.


It's the classic strength guy vs speed guy argument. King hits harder, is more durable but Katakuri is way harder to hit and connects way more frequently.


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## xenos5 (Dec 21, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> It's the classic strength guy vs speed guy argument. King hits harder, is more durable but Katakuri is way harder to hit and connects way more frequently.


Sure. But there are other factors like Kata having control of the entire battlefield with awakening. And Kata having a weapon (his trident) that he spins like a drill and should do decent damage if hits speed mode King.   I mentioned it earlier in the thread but in regards to weapons King’s trick sword that’s good for disarming swordsman is a bad match for a rapidly spinning trident as it’s not going to catch on the “rake” the way a normal blade would.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 21, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Sure. But there are other factors like Kata having control of the entire battlefield with awakening. And Kata having a weapon (his trident) that he spins like a drill and should do decent damage if hits speed mode King.   I mentioned it earlier in the thread but in regards to weapons King’s trick sword that’s good for disarming swordsman is a bad match for a rapidly spinning trident as it’s not going to catch on the “rake” the way a normal blade would.


Yeah I'm not taking sides here.

The result of this fight is like one thousand cuts vs a dozen slash wounds. It comes down to a battle of endurance.


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## Eustathios (Dec 21, 2021)

I think King wins, but if Oda drew it he'd portray them as equals IMO.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 21, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> I think King wins, but if Oda drew it he'd portray them as equals IMO.


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## Eustathios (Dec 21, 2021)

Yeah, pretty much. Story comes first.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## GiantForehead (Dec 21, 2021)

Katakuri hits quite hard tbf. Had luffy's hands throbbing everything they clashed, even as snakeman

Reactions: Agree 1


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## hajimehipo (Dec 21, 2021)

Katakuri:awakening, future sight, CoC, Future captain of the exBM piates

King : not even a single form of adv haki

mmmh I wonder whose portrayal is better

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## BenMazino01 (Dec 24, 2021)

Honestly, Kata outclassed King in terms of Haki, Speed, Agility and DF mastery.. King's durability is better however we all know how powerful Kata's armament is.. He can deal damage to King.. Kata take the W high diff..



GiantForehead said:


> Katakuri hits quite hard tbf. Had luffy's hands throbbing everything they clashed, even as snakeman


Yeah haha .. His normal armament is super strong. I think it can easily bypass King's toughness..



Sablés said:


> Also, I'm not sure if it's me forgetting but Katakuri can't fly right? That'd be a notable disadvantage.


Zorro couldn't fly as well yet he defeated King

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shanks (Dec 26, 2021)

Interesting that lots of people on YouTube still think Katakuri wins.


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 26, 2021)

Shanks said:


> Interesting that lots of people on YouTube still think Katakuri wins.


It's normal. What interesting is if people who think King who lost in 4 hits without his fire on in 15 minutes can beat Katakuri who lost in 13 hits in 10 hours.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 26, 2021)

Shanks said:


> Interesting that lots of people on YouTube still think Katakuri wins.


I used to think the One Piece community couldn't powerscale to save their lives, but I'm glad to see that this is only an OL affliction


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## TheWiggian (Dec 26, 2021)

King wins after a good fight high diff+

Reactions: Agree 1


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