# Zoro/Law vs Sanji/Ace



## RF (Feb 18, 2014)

PH
IC
No restrictions
100m 


How does this go?


----------



## thetitansage (Feb 18, 2014)

Law fights ace and holds him off while zoro casually slices sanji in half then zoro and law together take ace. Zoro/law mid diff


----------



## Goomoonryong (Feb 18, 2014)

Zoro and law take this high/extreme diff.


----------



## thetitansage (Feb 18, 2014)

high/extreme? this is in character so you know ace is gonna reckless charge law who can just poke his heart out the same way he did to smoker


----------



## Dellinger (Feb 18, 2014)

Ace is the strongest guy here and by a decent margin in my opinion.

Ace/Sanji win high extreme difficulty.


----------



## Venom (Feb 18, 2014)

Well it depends...
If Law (or Zoro if his sword slash would work in the room the same as Law's does) can slice Sanji immediately in half in his room he would be out of the game pretty fast.
Then it would be 2 on 1 and Law/Zoro would win a fight against Ace I guess.
But I am not really sure.
I would give it 7/10 for Law/Zoro


----------



## convict (Feb 18, 2014)

Ace is the strongest and Sanji is the weakest. The gaps between the middle duo and the other two are equivalent so I am not entirely sure who wins here. Good match. On the one hand the flame combination can be brutal. On the other, Law is a devil in tag team battles with his teleportation and manipulation of the battlespace.

Giving it to the swordsmen with extreme difficulty though I can see the other team winning.


----------



## Shanks (Feb 18, 2014)

Zoro/Law - Wins

Law switches Sanji's heart with an animal before they even intercept. Law then fights a cocky Ace, which may end in a similar fashion to Vergo.


----------



## JoJo (Feb 18, 2014)

I would give it to Zoro/Law more times than not. Mainly due to Law's hax. If he can switch their minds around then it would be mid diff for the swordsman. I don't say low because your abilities are still fully functional and them both being fire based fighters I think they'd get the hang of each other's abilities enough to make the fight mid-diff. And it's not likely Law will be able to switch their minds from the get go to. So they should still be able to use Haki (Sanji at least since it isn't confirmed with Ace). If the battle gets real bad, then Law can remove someone's heart.

Edit: I should mention here, that it'll only go mid-diff if everything goes well for the duo from the beginning of the fight. But it's probably won't go as smooth.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 18, 2014)

Good match RG. Zoro could fight Ace while Law takes out Sanji, then double team. That way, they win extreme diff. If Zoro fights Sanji and Law fights Ace, the fire duo could win this one but I think the swordsman still win.


----------



## JoJo (Feb 18, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Good match RG. Zoro could fight Ace while Law takes out Sanji, then double team. That way, they win extreme diff. If Zoro fights Sanji and Law fights Ace, the fire duo could win this one but I think the swordsman still win.



Zoro vs Ace/Law vs Sanji  are the better match ups, since I think if Ace get's split up he can always reform.


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 18, 2014)

Good match.

Swordsmen should take it on the highest end of difficulty


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 18, 2014)

Law and zoro win with mid difficulty.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 18, 2014)

Zoro and Law win around high diff.

*Spoiler*: __ 







Law was able to manipulate the river in Punk Hazard, so I can see him doing the same to Ace's fire, his hax will give Law and Zoro the edge.


JoJo said:


> Zoro vs Ace/Law vs Sanji  are the better match ups, since I think if Ace get's split up he can always reform.


Law should still be able to use Mes to get Ace's heart like he did Smoker's, and once he does, game over for Ace.


----------



## Sanji (Feb 18, 2014)

I believe Law to be stronger than Ace, and Zoro has always been a bit stronger than Sanji so Team 1 takes it.


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Feb 18, 2014)

_Law is one of the best characters to have in a team fight. If Sanji and Ace manage to stop Zoro and Law from fighting as a team i can see them winning. That would require for Ace to quickly single out Law and fight him while Sanji stalls Zoro. Since this is IC i can see Sanji taunting Zoro and making Zoro focus on him while playing it safe. His mobility and probably superior CoO should make him evasive enough for Ace to have the needed time to defeat Law. If Zoro and Law stay together though and manage to fight properly as a team i see the two of them winning._


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 18, 2014)

JoJo said:


> Zoro vs Ace/Law vs Sanji  are the better match ups, since I think if Ace get's split up he can always reform.



That's true. But he'll still have a cut if hit with haki then it's lights for him


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 18, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Ace is the strongest guy here and by a decent margin in my opinion.
> 
> Ace/Sanji win high extreme difficulty.



I'm going with this


----------



## Fiddlesticks (Feb 18, 2014)

Even with the ability to actually harm Ace, Ace still has the power to just utterly obliterate Law and Zoro, and Sanjis kicks hurt, kinda. 

Ace/Sanji lower end of high-diff.


----------



## Rob (Feb 18, 2014)

Obligatory "Good Match" post  

Zolo one-shots Sanji obviously and then gang-bangs Ace with Law


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 18, 2014)

fire duo extreme diff.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Feb 18, 2014)

I dont think this is a balanced match up at all, Zoro can solo this without being pushed to a high level of difficulty.


----------



## Rob (Feb 18, 2014)

What ZFG said. 

Sanji is a  horrible match up against Zoro, since he's Sanji, and Zoro was around Ace-level Pre-Skip. 

C'mon Sakazuki


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 18, 2014)

I missed you ZFG

My post counts catching up


----------



## tanman (Feb 18, 2014)

Pretty disappointing match-up, in my opinion.

There really is no argument for Ace beating Law. Law has much better CoA feats and his Room is large enough that Ace's fire will never touch him (or Zoro for that matter).  Since Ace can't do anything to him from a distance, Law forces Ace to CQC and obviously the guy who who had a CQC advantage over Smoker and was duking it out with Doflamingo wins when he lands a Knife or a Mes. Ace might be stronger in your tier lists or whatever, but in an actual match up Law has everything going for him. 

*Law and Zoro win this every time.
*
Law and Sanji v. Zoro and Ace would be more balanced. 
But I would still favor Law and Sanji.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 18, 2014)

The vice-president of the OP section has spoken.


----------



## tanman (Feb 18, 2014)

So are you getting at me being pretentious?
I said "in my opinion." Obviously, it's nothing against Sakazuki. He's a very good poster. But that's why I just expected a more balanced fight. Am I not allowed to think that?


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 18, 2014)

^I think Slender was flattering you, and was not patronising 

hmm I was under the impression that Smoker had the CQC advantage over Law as far as hand to hand combat goes

but perhaps you were taking mes and the close ranged usage of his powers into consideration as well?


----------



## tanman (Feb 18, 2014)

If that's the case, I apologize for the hostility.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 18, 2014)

I trolled both of you.   I was talking about ZFG.


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 19, 2014)

I see both Law and Zoro  as > Ace, which means > Sanji too. 

So they win high, extreme maybe.


----------



## Rocktomato (Feb 19, 2014)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> I dont think this is a balanced match up at all, Zoro can solo this without being pushed to a high level of difficulty.



Cool story, bro. 



RobLucciRapes said:


> Zoro was around Ace-level Pre-Skip.


Mhm, sure




So, anyway, Law is pretty overpowered. I'd say he could extreme diff this on his own because of how fast the top supernovas have grown during the timeskip, although dealing with Ace's ranged attacks and Sanji's prowess at the same time would cause problems. Zoro on his own would lose. Zoro & Law win with the upper end of midd-difficulty because Law on his own could almost certainly, in my opinion, beat Ace.


----------



## Extravlad (Feb 19, 2014)

People are talking about Law defeating Sanji in 1 slash, but Ace can easily kill Law with Dai Enkai Entei.
IMO Ace is totally outclassing Law here.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 19, 2014)

Zoro/Law has the advantage here. 

Law is your man for team battles. He could help offset Zoro's relatively low mobility by warping him around and is himself infinitely mobile. Both fighters are exceptionally lethal. There's too much room for either party to land a crippling slash or debilitating hax move, especially with Law being able to distort and manipulate an entire battlefield freely.

Sanji has flight but other than that no particular advantages and is also the overall weakest individual fighter. Going by the vs. Smoker fight, being a Logia seems like it to make Ace less vulnerable to Law's regular slashes, but as we've seen, Zoro has no problems harming Logia users with distance cuts and there's still Scalpel to worry about. Even an exceptionally mobile close range scrapper like Smoker fell to it and in a team battle oneshot moves become more dangerous. Ace may be the strongest individual present, but I don't think it's by much considering that we now know that fighters like Luffy & Law aren't too incredibly far from the likes of Doflamingo.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 19, 2014)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> I dont think this is a balanced match up at all, Zoro can solo this without being pushed to a high level of difficulty.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYZoxY3sawE[/YOUTUBE]


Extravlad said:


> People are talking about Law defeating Sanji in 1 slash, but Ace can easily kill Law with Dai Enkai Entei.
> IMO Ace is totally outclassing Law here.


Tact to redirect Ace's attacks or teleportation, so no, there's no "herp derp Entei ftw" crap here.


Rocktomato said:


> So, anyway, Law is pretty overpowered. I'd say he could extreme diff this on his own because of how fast the top supernovas have grown during the timeskip, although dealing with Ace's ranged attacks and Sanji's prowess at the same time would cause problems. Zoro on his own would lose. Zoro & Law win with the upper end of midd-difficulty because Law on his own could almost certainly, in my opinion, beat Ace.


I'm not too confident that Law could take on both Ace and Sanji at the same time, but I do agree that Law could beat Ace on his own.


----------



## Kishido (Feb 19, 2014)

Because of Ace... I give it to Ace and Sanji with high/extreme dif


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

Ace wouldn't lol entai Law with the amount of time it takes to make it. By the time he's holding the ball is heart will already be on the ground. Teach is super slow, and was charging up his move too. Law wouldn't give such an opening to Ace.


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Sanji beats Zoro high diff.
Ace beats Law high diff.


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 19, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Ace wouldn't lol entai Law with the *amount of time it takes to make it.* By the time he's holding the ball is heart will already be on the ground. Teach is super slow, and was charging up his move too. Law wouldn't give such an opening to Ace.


the amount of time it took in the manga was a single panel. the idea that it takes prep time is the anime's fault.


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 19, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Sanji beats Zoro high diff.


toplel                            .


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Oh, wow, going through the posts I am instantly reminded by how obscene the Zoro fanwank can get around here. It's ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure Sanji takes Zoro on his own with his superior speed, intelligence and agility. It wouldn't be an easy win, but he'd be the last one standing imo, esp. now he has Air Walk.

Law VS Ace? Come the fuck on.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

Are you saying that Sanji can beat Zoro? Just wondering before I say anything.


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Are you saying that Sanji can beat Zoro? Just wondering before I say anything.



Yup. I think I made that pretty clear already.


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't even...


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Halcyon said:


> I don't even...



You can trot out as many 3 word posts sentences as you like.


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 19, 2014)

Sanji beating Zoro is something I only see in the comments section of youtube.

That's really all I need to say about this.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

Now that I know for sure that you think that it's time to smite you. May Stendarr bring mercy to your soul. Pre timeskip, Zoro has always fought stronger opponents than Sanji. Always. Then in TB when both are overworked, Zoro knocks Sanji out and takes multiple pain that if he inflicted on Sanji he'd be gone. At that point of time Zoro showed that he's above Sanji if hardcore Sanji tards couldn't get that through their heads. Post ts we haven't seen enough to gauge them. Let's compare their stats/fields of power. 

Strength: Zoro 
Lethality: Zoro 
Durability: Zoro 
Speed: Sanji 
Mobility: Sanji 
Damage out put: Zoro 

Two of the most least strongest fields is what Sanji beats Zoro in. Zoro would cut Sanji in half. Unless you're going to deny manga proof of fields of power.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 19, 2014)

Luffy > Zoro > Sanji. That's the way it's been since OP started, that's the way it'll end. Sorry.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

And Slender puts the masses to sleep.


----------



## warismydestiny (Feb 19, 2014)

out of everything in this manga the thing that oda has made most clear is that zoro is slightly stronger than sanji how do ppl not see that? i mean he even made it more clear than mihawk not being admiral level


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Now that I know for sure that you think that it's time to smite you. May Stendarr bring mercy to your soul. Pre timeskip, Zoro has always fought stronger opponents than Sanji. Always. Then in TB when both are overworked, Zoro knocks Sanji out and takes multiple pain that if he inflicted on Sanji he'd be gone. At that point of time Zoro showed that he's above Sanji if hardcore Sanji tards couldn't get that through their heads. Post ts we haven't seen enough to gauge them. Let's compare their stats/fields of power.
> 
> Strength: Zoro
> Lethality: Zoro
> ...



One Piece battles are rarely straightforward due to various skills and Devil Fruits. Oda has actually crafted a very balanced universe in this regard. I always look to the Monster Trio in particular as balanced.

Luffy's immune to blunt damage but vulnerable to cuts. Zoro is has strength and durability. Sanji has speed and agility. There's no reason to assume Luffy > Zoro > Sanji as fact. If anything, it's Luffy > Sanji > Zoro > Luffy.

The strongest character doesn't always win. It's more about who has the advantage? Luffy beat Enel because he had the DF advantage. Neither Ace nor Smoker won their exchange because neither of their abilities were stronger. This balance isn't just restricted to DF users. It applies to non DF users VS DF users (e.g. Moriah VS Jibei) and non DF vs non DF (e.g. Zoro VS Sanji).

Zoro is stronger than Sanji, but I believe latter's speed and agility trumps former's abilities.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

You're talking about advantages and that's exactly what Zoro has. Zoro tanks more and delivers more. Sanji not being stronger than Zoro has already been showed loud and clear. If Sanji goes in for a hachis move a daishinkan will cut Sanji's leg off. Zoro being good at COA as stated in an SBS makes this even better for Zoro. Sanji can't win. Show me some facts to show that he will win.


----------



## warismydestiny (Feb 19, 2014)

IMO Law and Zoro take this with extreme dificulty I think it goes like this 
Law>Ace>Zoro>Sanji theyre all really close to each other though.


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> You're talking about advantages and that's exactly what Zoro has. Zoro tanks more and delivers more. Sanji not being stronger than Zoro has already been showed loud and clear. If Sanji goes in for a hachis move a daishinkan will cut Sanji's leg off. Zoro being good at COA as stated in an SBS makes this even better for Zoro. Sanji can't win. Show me some facts to show that he will win.



Zoro has endurance and strength but a kick to his neck will break it just as easily as anyone else's. You severely underestimate Sanji's striking power, like most people tend to do in this particular match up. For someone reason Sanji losing a leg now is a certain outcome even though he's never had a problem with facing swordsmen in the actual manga. _Now_ what Oda says or implies about the two of them being close in strength is the last thing on your mind because swords > legs, even though you'd probably not even consider that if it wasn't Sanji VS Zoro but, say, Sanji VS Vista or any other swordsman but Zoro.

It's a very transparent way out weaselling out, denying probable outcomes because now _real world_ logic is so very important to a world in a fictional setting with fictional abilities where there are characters that can kick cannonballs the size of a small house, etc.

In the real world you put your money on the guy with sword over the unarmed martial artist. One Piece isn't the real world. Sanji has the speed and the agility to take Zoro out, and now he has air superiority to boot.

Zoro, by the way, only has such great endurance because he can't dodge for shit. Every major fight he's been in has resulted with a victory only after taking a great deal of damage. It just shows how much of a fanboy you are that you would so heavily rely on misplaced logic to sidestep that particular fact.


----------



## Fiddlesticks (Feb 19, 2014)

I see intense bloody arguments incoming.

#Zupa Cheef
#ZFG


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 19, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Zoro has endurance and strength but a kick to his neck will break it just as easily as anyone else's. You severely underestimate Sanji's striking power, like most people tend to do in this particular match up. For someone reason Sanji losing a leg now is a certain outcome even though he's never had a problem with facing swordsmen in the actual manga. _Now_ what Oda says or implies about the two of them being close in strength is the last thing on your mind because swords > legs, even though you'd probably not even consider that if it wasn't Sanji VS Zoro but, say, Sanji VS Vista or any other swordsman but Zoro.
> 
> It's a very transparent way out weaselling out, denying probable outcomes because now _real world_ logic is so very important to a world in a fictional setting with fictional abilities where there are characters that can kick cannonballs the size of a small house, etc.
> 
> ...



First paragraph: Sanji hasn't had a major fight of against a swordsman on his level. If Zoro gets a clean cut on Sanji leg, it's coming off. Zoro won't let Sanji kick his head he'd block with his sword.  

Second paragraph: Okay. Swords will still cut through legs if the person using the sword is a master of the way of the kenshi. 

Third paragraph: Sanji has good speed but Zoro is fast too. Against the pacifista they had equal speed. Zoro's reflexes are amazing as this guy was casually bullet timing pre timeskip.  

Fourth paragraph: Instead of using petty insults, read the manga. Zoro can't dodge shit?   I'm sorry what? I'm not using misplaced logic, i'm using proper logic and manga panels while you spout nonsense and insults. Zoro easily dodged that bullet and you just saw it. Concede or leave. You can't make a valid argument with insults and things unhelpful to your argument.


----------



## HaxHax (Feb 19, 2014)

Fire duo.. Probably. I think Ace's showings against an admiral were considerably better than Zoro's. Ace matched Aokiji's attack entirely, while Zoro was on his knees panting after a casual move from fujitora. The admirals had killing intent when attacking Ace, too. Only reason Ace got hit directly by Akainu was because he threw himself in front of the punch to save Luffy's life.

People assume that the difference between Law and Zoro isn't huge - most would put Law below Luffy, even. I'm going with Ace being the stronger one between Law & Ace. By some margin, even, since I'd also expect him to be stronger than current Luffy. That puts at least one main character between the two.

Law won't be able to cheap-shot the opposition, either. He was only able to catch Smoker off guard because Smoker did not fully understand Law's power - and that was by no means a stomp, either. Sanji knows full well the extent of Law's power and will be able to pass this knowledge on to Ace.

Zoro won't really make use of Law's power during combat, for two reasons: Law is caught up fighting a stronger opponent himself, and Zoro isn't clever enough to anticipate moves from a fighter with a power that he isn't used to fight with on his side. Maybe if Law spends his time running away, as against Doflamingo, but that won't win him the battle. So yeah, Law may be able to save Zoro's skin from a few blows, but it's going to create openings for Ace. He's not just going to stand idly by.

Sanji and Zoro are definitely much more closely matched than Law & Ace. Sanji and Ace are also more likely to understand each other's powers quickly and use this to their advantage. Both use fire based attacks and are intelligent fighters. 
Meanwhile, Zoro's fighting revolves around regular swordfighting, while Law's revolves around Devil Fruit manipulation.

What's more, Zoro has never had a real fight that wasn't against a swordsman. Who knows if he'll even be able to deal with the barrages coming from Ace (and Sanji) - he was actually shown being unable to deal with fire on PH, where kinemon had to cut an explosion in order to save himself, Zoro and Brooke.

Grill.




Slenderman said:


> If Zoro gets a clean cut on Sanji leg, it's coming off.





Slenderman said:


> If



By the way, Sanji also trumps Zoro in terms of raw strength. Sanji's kicks lifted one of the biggest giants in the series off the ground. Zoro has no strength feats in the remote vicinity of that. Sanji also has the advantage of fighting with his legs, which contain the strongest muscles in the body.



Slenderman said:


> Zoro won't let Sanji kick his head he'd block with his sword.



But who's faster and better at CoO? You keep assuming that Zoro will be able to hit and dodge, even though he has worse speed and worse reactions. And worse mobility. For all we know, Sanji could be running circles around Zoro all day long, pulling a Rock Lee.



Slenderman said:


> Third paragraph: Sanji has good speed but Zoro is fast too. Against the pacifista they had equal speed. Zoro's reflexes are amazing as this guy was casually bullet timing pre timeskip.



On-screen in PH Sanji outsped Zoro not once, but _twice_ while in Nami's body. That's with a body considerably weaker than his own. Both times being life and death situations. Pacifista destruction, on the other hand, was not.


Also lol @ zoro dodging the shot from a subhuman tier fighter. Remind me when last a strawhat was hit by a bullet.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 19, 2014)

HaxHax said:


> Fire duo.. Probably. I think Ace's showings against an admiral were considerably better than Zoro's. Ace matched Aokiji's attack entirely, while Zoro was on his knees panting after a casual move from fujitora.


Zoro forced Fujitora to stop his gravity by working against the gravity and throwing a flying slash. The only reason Ace's "feat" against Aokiji seemed so successful was because of the elemental matchup, and if the fight had continued, Aokiji would have stomped Ace. It's like comparing Crocodile blocking Mihawk's attack on Luffy. Blocking one attack doesn't mean much. And Law's hax is perfect for dealing with Ace's DF. Zoro and Law have got this.


HaxHax said:


> The admirals had killing intent when attacking Ace, too.


Akainu, yes. Aokiji? Nah. If he did, why didn't Aokiji use something like Ice Ball against Ace? It required less time to charge and froze Whitebeard in an instant.


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 19, 2014)

Zoro wank? I love it when idiots like you all blame it on the fan base when maybe it's  just you idiots not seeing it the way we see it.

Zoro and Luffy passed Ace already. Unless Oda kept Ace's strength a mystery to us and he was weakened by more than half in MF and against Teach.


----------



## HaxHax (Feb 19, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Zoro and Luffy passed Ace already. Unless Oda kept Ace's strength a mystery to us and he was weakened by more than half in MF and against Teach.



Ace fought people that Zoro could not dream of holding a candle to. There's no "zoro solos" where he cuts off teach's head. The guy took a slash and a direct quake to the face from blood-lusted Whitebeard, only to get back up to fight Sengoku and Garp. Dude was _at least_ on the level of Whitebeard's very strongest commanders.



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Zoro forced Fujitora to stop his gravity by working against the gravity and throwing a flying slash.



So was Zoro not on his knees, sweating like hell and breathing heavily after taking a casual attack from Fuji with no killing intent? Or are you just trying to divert attention?



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> The only reason Ace's "feat" against Aokiji seemed so successful was because of the elemental matchup



The only reason why Akainu's "feat" against Ace seemed so successful was because of the elemental matchup.. See how that works?


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 19, 2014)

HaxHax said:


> Ace fought people that Zoro could not dream of holding a candle to. There's no "zoro solos" where he cuts off teach's head. The guy took a slash and a direct quake to the face from blood-lusted Whitebeard, only to get back up to fight Sengoku and Garp. Dude was _at least_ on the level of Whitebeard's very strongest commanders.


While I don't think the gap between the M3  and Ace is too far off, I definitely agree about Blackbeard, I don't think any of the M3 are ready for that monster yet. I laughed when people told me Blackbeard was underrated...then I saw what they were talking about.


HaxHax said:


> So was Zoro not on his knees, sweating like hell and breathing heavily after taking a casual attack from Fuji with no killing intent? Or are you just trying to divert attention?


Ace knew the attack from a non-serious Aokiji was coming. Zoro didn't know what was coming from an equally non-serious Issho until it happened.


HaxHax said:


> The only reason why Akainu's "feat" against Ace seemed so successful was because of the elemental matchup.. See how that works?


So you agree that Ace's feat against Aokiji went so well because of the elemental matchup. Good. And Akainu or Aokiji could roflstomp Ace with BH alone, no DF required.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 19, 2014)

> Dude was at least on the level of Whitebeard's very strongest commanders.



Nope and nope.


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 19, 2014)

> Ace fought people that Zoro could not dream of holding a candle to. There's no "zoro solos" where he cuts off teach's head. The guy took a slash and a direct quake to the face from blood-lusted Whitebeard, only to get back up to fight Sengoku and Garp. Dude was at least on the level of Whitebeard's very strongest commanders.



Ace fought people that zoro could not dream of holding a candle to? Can you give me an example? Because as far as I am concerned, Zoro has been fighting the world's strongest swordsman for two years, or at least trained with him. 

Zoro on his what? 3rd day in the New world ran into arguably the 2nd strongest warlord who would make Ace his bitch, an admiral, and now along with Luffy, facing a person with a very broken fruit in a location suits him best. 

Who did Ace fight? Pre skip Yami Teach? Big deal. Teach took an attack and a quake from a half dead WB. A quake that did not require any arm movement, a quake much weaker to the one Akainu had to endure. Besides, Ace looked super bad comparing to Teach in their fight.

And please stop spouting nonsense, Marco would wiped the floor with Teach just like Magellen.


----------



## HaxHax (Feb 19, 2014)

Downplay all you want. Not worth the effort to answer shit like that. Go ahead, claim your "victory" as you have successfully written dumb enough shit to make me not want to reply to you.



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Ace knew the attack from a non-serious Aokiji was coming. Zoro didn't know what was coming from an equally non-serious Issho until it happened.


Aokiji was in the middle of the biggest war of his time, fighting the strongest pirate force in the world. He was serious.



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> So you agree that Ace's feat against Aokiji went so well because of the elemental matchup. Good. And Akainu or Aokiji could roflstomp Ace with BH alone, no DF required.



Disregarding both means you have an argument for neither. I may as well claim that Ace > Akainu without the DF, then. Akainu was only able to defeat Aokiji after 10 straight days of fighting, with an even better elemental matchup than Ace.. Akainu must've been weak shit compared to Ace. [That's sarcasm, for those of you who are going to take this seriously. I know you're reading.]

Point is that if Akainu couldn't have done the same without his DF advantage, then was puts Ace so far below the admirals? You're rationalizing your way to a foregone conclusion by introducing a DF advantage that has gone unmentioned in the manga..


----------



## Sanji (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah I don't think Zoro is up there with Ace yet.

Then again I think Luffy has jumped further ahead of Zoro/Sanji by a considerable margin post skip, and has also surpassed Ace by a tiny bit.


----------



## tupadre97 (Feb 20, 2014)

Team Ace wins. Zoro and Sanji will stalemate each other when they fight, but Law won't be able to do a thing to ace. He won't be able to overcome the fire spam so after he loses to Ace he will just help Sanji beat Zoro. They'll win high diff.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 20, 2014)

HaxHax said:


> Fire duo.. Probably. I think Ace's showings against an admiral were considerably better than Zoro's. Ace matched Aokiji's attack entirely, while Zoro was on his knees panting after a casual move from fujitora. The admirals had killing intent when attacking Ace, too. Only reason Ace got hit directly by Akainu was because he threw himself in front of the punch to save Luffy's life.
> 
> People assume that the difference between Law and Zoro isn't huge - most would put Law below Luffy, even. I'm going with Ace being the stronger one between Law & Ace. By some margin, even, since I'd also expect him to be stronger than current Luffy. That puts at least one main character between the two.
> 
> ...



Dude you're better than this. Really, comparing some post timeskip data when we haven't even seen Zoro's post timeskip strength feat. You can figure out what's wrong with using that argument yourself.  

Sanji can run around but when he strikes Zoro could choose to block/tank or dodge. He's not lightning. 

You're still disregarding the fact that they had equal speed when attacking. While they were bloodlusted or not is irrelevant and you're using that as a scapegoat from the truth. Could you also show panels of Sanji out speeding Zoro by a lot or in PH? 

The guy I was arguing with said that Zoro can't dodge shit. So I posted Zoro bullet timing. Have you seen Nami, Usopp or Chopper bulletiming. Or anyone not in the M3? No. Don't butt into arguments that you're not even reading just to mindlessly defend Sanji.


----------



## Ajin (Feb 20, 2014)

> A clean daishinkan (great dragon movement) would literally cut Sanji in half if it connects. Generic sword slashes wouldn't take Sanji down but Zoro's named, strong techs will.





Nice fanfiction.  Zoro never will cut someone in half, OP isn't seinen. And certainly Zoro can't one-shot Sanji.

Team 1 win, high-extreme diff.


----------



## TheWiggian (Feb 20, 2014)

Law & Zoro high diff


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 20, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> First paragraph: Sanji hasn't had a major fight of against a swordsman on his level. If Zoro gets a clean cut on Sanji leg, it's coming off. Zoro won't let Sanji kick his head he'd block with his sword.



True, but plenty of fodders use swords. Sanji kicks through concrete buildings, sets his legs on fire, and can sustain pressure several thousand meters under water, but a sword is definitely going to fuck him up, right? Please.



Slenderman said:


> Second paragraph: Okay. Swords will still cut through legs if the person using the sword is a master of the way of the kenshi.



Not in One Piece.



Slenderman said:


> Third paragraph: Sanji has good speed but Zoro is fast too. Against the pacifista they had equal speed. Zoro's reflexes are amazing as this guy was casually bullet timing pre timeskip.



So now you're arguing Zoro's speed is on par with that of Sanji? Tell me how you are not just another fanwanking Zoro fanboy? This shit is embarrassing to read.



Slenderman said:


> Fourth paragraph: Instead of using petty insults, read the manga. Zoro can't dodge shit?   I'm sorry what? I'm not using misplaced logic, i'm using proper logic and manga panels while you spout nonsense and insults. Zoro easily dodged that bullet and you just saw it. Concede or leave. You can't make a valid argument with insults and things unhelpful to your argument.



You're not this desperate, are you? Using a civilian without any skills as proof? Bullet time means nothing in the Pieceverse. Zoro sustains severe damage against every opponent that can actually fight for shit. You better believe Sanji would make him sing.

This is getting too sad to laugh at.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 20, 2014)

Ziomek said:


> Nice fanfiction.  Zoro never will cut someone in half, OP isn't seinen. And certainly Zoro can't one-shot Sanji.
> 
> Team 1 win, high-extreme diff.



Zoro can cut people in half but this is not Bleach. One of Zoro's high end techs could most certainly do that, and it's fine. Vergo and Smoker are on the same level and Vergo one shot Smoker. It's like Zoro vs Ryuuma where the person who got the first blood one the fight.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 20, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> True, but plenty of fodders use swords. Sanji kicks through concrete buildings, sets his legs on fire, and can sustain pressure several thousand meters under water, but a sword is definitely going to fuck him up, right? Please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First paragraph: You clearly didn't analyze what  I said so whatever. 

Second paragraph: This is the OPBD. Anything goes here. It's not a manga fight. 

Third paragraph: Instead of spouting insults like an ignoramus why don't you post panels. Put up or shut up. 

Fourth paragraph: You said Zoro can't dodge shit. Then I countered, now you're switching the goal posts. If anyone's making a sad argument it's you. I destroyed your argument about Zoro can't dodge shit and now you disregard that with another petty insult. Like I said before. Put up or shut up. If you can't post good arguments without flaming you can get yourself banned. This place has enough flamers. Next time actually make an argument instead of trying to act cool and badass.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 20, 2014)

HaxHax said:


> Aokiji was in the middle of the biggest war of his time, fighting the strongest pirate force in the world. He was serious.


Kind of like how he was serious when the Straw Hats were escaping, Enies Lobby (one of the WG's most important locations) was razed to the ground, and he could have gone after the Straw Hats but said "nah, we lost"? Kind of like how he was serious when he could have killed Robin when he reunited with her, who only a short time ago, was with a Warlord who had tried using her to find the Ancient Weapon, but chose not to? Aokiji lost all his motivation to help the WG in full at Ohara.


HaxHax said:


> Point is that if Akainu couldn't have done the same without his DF advantage, then was puts Ace so far below the admirals? You're rationalizing your way to a foregone conclusion by introducing a DF advantage that has gone unmentioned in the manga..


The Admirals are physical monsters and Haki beasts. Ace was a guy who was too reliant on his DF. Once Ace got into a jam where his DF alone couldn't save him, Blackbeard whacked him around like a pinata, and we all know the story with Akainu. And Aokiji could still use his DF to beat Ace, technically with enough ice, you can put out a fire.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Feb 20, 2014)

If Ace is acutally commander level than Oda has some explanations to do . By feats Zoro/Law > Ace/Sanji . By Hype ? Ace/Sanji > Law/Zoro . And I prefer going by feats here since he actually fought .


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 20, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> First paragraph: You clearly didn't analyze what  I said so whatever.
> 
> Second paragraph: This is the OPBD. Anything goes here. It's not a manga fight.
> 
> ...



I clearly did.

This is a match up involving manga characters.

I'm not going to waste my time scouring through the manga to produce evidence for common knowledge. Be wilfully ignorant as much as you'd like, you're not going to convince anyone here Zoro has speed on par with Sanji, outside of other demented Zoro fanboys.


I said major fights. You're using Zoro dodging a bullet from a civilian with no combat ability as proof? Please. This strawman isn't even worth dismantling.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 20, 2014)

Ziomek said:


> Nice fanfiction.  Zoro never will cut someone in half, OP isn't seinen*. And certainly Zoro can't one-shot Sanji.
> *
> Team 1 win, high-extreme diff.



Yes he can actually. 

inbf Zoro wanker. I will just leave this here.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Feb 20, 2014)

Zoro can One shot Sanji ? Bullshit . Zoro > Sanji ? Yes . Zoro and Law win this particular match ? Yeah . Zoro can oneshot Sanji ? Hell no .


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 20, 2014)

So what was Alabasta Sanji more durable and enduring then Mr.1?

If not then Zoro can one shot him, and nothings changed. If anything Zoro has increased the gap between himself and Sanji.


----------



## Etherborn (Feb 20, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> So what was Alabasta Sanji more durable and enduring then Mr.1?
> 
> If not then Zoro can one shot him, and nothings changed. If anything Zoro has increased the gap between himself and Sanji.



More durable? No. More enduring? Yes. Mr. 1 has decent durability, but he has no endurance to speak of. Every time someone's bypassed his durability they took him down in one shot.

I think the gap between them was also bigger in Alabasta. Zoro got a lot of improvement from Alabasta to Skypeia whereas Sanji was lagging behind. He got a pretty huge power up in Ennies Lobby though. Not quite enough to stand on equal grounds with him, but enough so that he isn't going to get beaten without high difficulty.


----------



## Bohemian Knight (Feb 20, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Ace is the strongest guy here and by a decent margin in my opinion.
> 
> Ace/Sanji win high extreme difficulty.



/thread

Really good matchup though. It'd be an awesome fight to see.


----------



## Venom (Feb 20, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> True, but plenty of fodders use swords. Sanji kicks through concrete buildings, sets his legs on fire, and can sustain pressure several thousand meters under water, but a sword is definitely going to fuck him up, right? Please.





> You're not this desperate, are you? Using a civilian without any skills as proof? Bullet time means nothing in the Pieceverse. Zoro sustains severe damage against every opponent that can actually fight for shit. You better believe Sanji would make him sing.



You just complained that Slenderman is using the shot from a fodder as evidence but at the same time consider the sword slashes of fodder as evidence that Zoro can't cut off Sanji's leg.
Please tell me how this works? 

Plenty of fodders and random swordsman =/= Zoro
Concrete Buldings, Heat, Pressure=/= Slash from a master swordsman with 2 2nd class meitos.
Zoro cutting a leg of Sanji is more likely to happen than Sanji being able to break Zoro's neck.

And I don't even want to start with Asura 


> Not in One Piece.


But in the OP Battledome.



> So now you're arguing Zoro's speed is on par with that of Sanji? Tell me how you are not just another fanwanking Zoro fanboy? This shit is embarrassing to read.



Tell me how you are not just another fanwanking Sanjitard?
You are the one who says that Sanji>Zoro



*Spoiler*: __ 










Zoro is actually quite fast and can dodge. He is a pro in blitzing and has short distance outbursts of speed.
Not like Luffy or Sanji where he can run constantly at this speed but for an instant he can.
And the reflexes of each M3 member should be around the same level.



> This is getting too sad to laugh at.



And again...saying that Sanji>Zoro but insulting other people...


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 20, 2014)

My hope for good 2014 posters is decreasing rapidly with guys like him. It's sad really.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 20, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> I clearly did.
> 
> This is a match up involving manga characters.
> 
> ...



I'm not using a straw man. I'm not downplaying Sanji or anything like that. You are using insults as a scapegoat for lack of ability to combat the facts i'm showing you. You didn't put up so you go with what rhymes with that. You said Zoro can't dodge shit. And I showed him dodging something. Now you change the goalposts. Since you cannot form an argument to combat what I said. Concession is the only thing left for you. I showed a panel while you say insults.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 20, 2014)

Sanji would give Zoro high diff but when you're fighting a master kenshi no matter if you're on the same level especially when you're not a tank one shot could end it all.


----------



## tanman (Feb 20, 2014)

*I'm still very confused about why/how people think Ace can defeat Law.* I see no evidence in any of the posts I've read. The only way for that to even make sense is for Ace to have far better CoA or speed than he has shown. Blind faith basically.



oOLawlietOo said:


> Zoro wank? I love it when idiots like you all blame it on the fan base when maybe it's  just you idiots not seeing it the way we see it.



If that's your angle, you really lose the high ground when you call your opponents idiots.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 20, 2014)

In my thread Ace and Law are dead even in the poll.


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 20, 2014)

> If that's your angle, you really lose the high ground when you call your opponents idiots.



oh but it's fine to call others Zorotards and wankers and all that shit?


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 20, 2014)

Ace is on nothing but hype so it's hard to gauge him realistically.


----------



## tanman (Feb 20, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> oh but it's fine to call others Zorotards and wankers and all that shit?



Your missing the point. My post said the exact opposite of that. Thee best way to deal with that is not responding in kind.

As I said, when you do that you lose any high ground you might have had in making your point. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.


----------



## tupadre97 (Feb 21, 2014)

tanman said:


> *I'm still very confused about why/how people think Ace can defeat Law.* I see no evidence in any of the posts I've read. The only way for that to even make sense is for Ace to have far better CoA or speed than he has shown. Blind faith basically.
> 
> 
> 
> If that's your angle, you really lose the high ground when you call your opponents idiots.



Uhh fire and ranged attacks. What is law gonna do when he can't get close and his entire room is filled with fire and he's getting fire atttacks constantly spammed at him?





Slenderman said:


> A clean daishinkan (great dragon movement) would literally cut Sanji in half if it connects. Generic sword slashes wouldn't take Sanji down but Zoro's named, strong techs will.



Lol no. If this is true then a hells memories kick will turn Zoro into ash.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 21, 2014)

1. Yes it can. Sanji is not tanking a slash across his head and chest and it goes through him. 
2. HM takes time to fire up. What's stopping Zoro from just attacking him?


----------



## tanman (Feb 21, 2014)

tupadre97 said:


> Uhh fire and ranged attacks. What is law gonna do when he can't get close and his entire room is filled with fire and he's getting fire atttacks constantly spammed at him?



Get the fire out of his room?
Stop Ace from using his attacks?
I think you're kind of missing the point of the room. Not to mention he can manipulate its size, so if Ace launces an Entei up close at the start (totally out of character, but it's the only way he's going to fill the whole room with fire), Law can just make the Room smaller to protect himself.


----------



## Orca (Feb 21, 2014)

Ace was equal to jimbei level fighters two years before we met him. He should easily be easily above the likes of law.

Plus as far as I remember, law doesn't have better feats than ace as people are claiming.


----------



## Blue Cheese (Feb 21, 2014)

I give it to fire duo, going be hard fight but sanji and ace can prob use better team work. 



tanman said:


> *I'm still very confused about why/how people think Ace can defeat Law.* I see no evidence in any of the posts I've read. The only way for that to even make sense is for Ace to have far better CoA or speed than he has shown. Blind faith basically.



tell us why/how u think law beats Ace rather than sit their confused about other ppls opinions


----------



## HaxHax (Feb 21, 2014)

tanman said:


> Get the fire out of his room?
> Stop Ace from using his attacks?
> I think you're kind of missing the point of the room. Not to mention he can manipulate its size, so if Ace launces an Entei up close at the start (totally out of character, but it's the only way he's going to fill the whole room with fire), Law can just make the Room smaller to protect himself.



Room isn't a barrier.


----------



## Kishido (Feb 21, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Ace was equal to jimbei level fighters two years before we met him. He should easily be easily above the likes of law.
> 
> Plus as far as I remember, law doesn't have better feats than ace as people are claiming.



Are you nuts?

Ace has stopped growing after the fight or Jinbe was able to  or Jinbe was able to grow on the same level as Ace after their fight... Same as he will growth on the same level as the M3 from now on.


----------



## Orca (Feb 21, 2014)

Kishido said:


> Are you nuts?
> 
> Ace has stopped growing after the fight or Jinbe was able to  or Jinbe was able to grow on the same level as Ace after their fight... Same as he will growth on the same level as the M3 from now on.



I completely and utterly disagree with every single pixel of your post. Neither did ace stop growing and neither did jimbei grow at nearly half the speed as ace, if he had any growth whatsoever.

OT: Is jimbei one of your favourite characters?


----------



## Imagine (Feb 21, 2014)

Ace clearly isn't  easily above Law. A bit stronger than maybe.

He did stop growing as Teach and the admirals showed.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 21, 2014)

Luffee said:


> I completely and utterly disagree with every single pixel of your post. Neither did ace stop growing and neither did jimbei grow at nearly half the speed as ace, if he had any growth whatsoever.


It's still unclear how strong both of them grew, but I do agree that both Ace and Jimbei were still growing in strength after that battle, and Jimbei likely grew stronger over the timeskip.


Luffee said:


> OT: Is jimbei one of your favourite characters?


He is for me.


Imagine said:


> He did stop growing as Teach and the admirals showed.


I think Ace at that point in time was focused solely on improving his DF, either because it was easier than honing Haki or other stats, or just that it came more naturally to him. Shanks noted that Ace was strong, but it was too soon for him to fight BB iirc.


----------



## Imagine (Feb 21, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> I think Ace at that point in time was focused solely on improving his DF, either because it was easier than honing Haki or other stats, or just that it came more naturally to him. Shanks noted that Ace was strong, but it was too soon for him to fight BB iirc.


Possibly. 

No point in using anything else when you have a logia. His other stats we're up to par to a certain extent though.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 21, 2014)

Imagine said:


> Possibly.
> 
> *No point in using anything else when you have a logia. His other stats we're up to par to a certain extent though.*


Exactly, it was the jam Luffy faced near the end of Part 1. His DF was powerful (thanks to G2 and 3) and it got him far in Paradise, but that alone wasn't enough as he faced bigger and badder opponents, so he decided to train with Rayleigh for two years. Ace's stats were good, if Caribou were in his place in the BB fight, Caribou would have been dead after the first punch. Just how good Ace's stats were, we don't know. But Oda should show a flashback soon enough, especially since Ace's DF is on the line here.


----------



## Orca (Feb 21, 2014)

> It's still unclear how strong both of them grew, but I do agree that both Ace and Jimbei were still growing in strength after that battle, and Jimbei likely grew stronger over the timeskip.



But you do agree ace was stronger than him preTS right?

As far as I'm concerned, there was a noticeable gap between him and jinbei at MF cuz when they fought two years earlier, God knows how many years jimbei spent out on sea whereas ace was a fresh rookie. So ace's growth rate is far bigger than jimbei's.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 21, 2014)

Luffee said:


> But you do agree ace was stronger than him preTS right?
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, there was a noticeable gap between him and jinbei at MF cuz when they fought two years earlier, God knows how many years jimbei spent out on sea whereas ace was a fresh rookie. So ace's growth rate is far bigger than jimbei's.


I honestly don't know. We have no idea of their growth rates, how much they improved and in what areas, etc. I think it might be something like this (give your honest opinion and thoughts on this):
Pre TS Ace = Post TS Jimbei and Pre TS Ace >= Pre TS Jimbei.


----------



## Orca (Feb 21, 2014)

PreTS Ace > PostTS Jimbei.

PreTS Ace definitely > Jimbei. They can't be equals.

And as far as I'm concerned jimbei is the same as he was pre TS. If he did grow then the difference is negligible.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 21, 2014)

Luffee said:


> PreTS Ace > PostTS Jimbei.
> 
> PreTS Ace definitely > Jimbei. They can't be equals.
> 
> *And as far as I'm concerned jimbei is the same as he was pre TS. If he did grow then the difference is negligible.*


I disagree. Jimbei is likely going to join the crew, so he'll need to keep improving, probably faster than he did before (not as good as the M3 ofc), and the crew *needs* more firepower.


----------



## Orca (Feb 21, 2014)

We'll just agree to disagree here.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 21, 2014)

Luffee said:


> We'll just agree to disagree here.


Yeah, we're likely not going to agree on it, so we'll wait on Oda to prove one of us wrong (which can just as well be me). Sound fair?


----------



## Orca (Feb 21, 2014)

Ok


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Feb 21, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> 1. Yes it can. Sanji is not tanking a slash across his head and chest and it goes through him.
> 2. HM takes time to fire up. What's stopping Zoro from just attacking him?



_Zoro can definitely injure Sanji, but to straight out cut him in half ? Could be possible but i don't see it as a casual feat for him to achieve. For example Doflamingo used his strings to severe one of Oars legs at MF _



_While Sanji was able to take a named attack from him, one that Doflamingo thought would finish him off, with only fairly shallow cuts on his body as result _


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## tupadre97 (Feb 21, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> 1. Yes it can. Sanji is not tanking a slash across his head and chest and it goes through him.
> 2. HM takes time to fire up. What's stopping Zoro from just attacking him?



Lol dude this is not a seinen and op fights don't even work like that. I'm saying that its just as ridiculous to say HM would turn zoro to ash and that zoro can cut thru Sanji. That will never happen in an OP fight against equal opponents. And what makes you think Sanji can't just fly in the air with blue walk and charge up HM out of zoro's range?





tanman said:


> Get the fire out of his room?
> Stop Ace from using his attacks?
> I think you're kind of missing the point of the room. Not to mention he can manipulate its size, so if Ace launces an Entei up close at the start (totally out of character, but it's the only way he's going to fill the whole room with fire), Law can just make the Room smaller to protect himself.



Well first off there's no way Law can manipulate ace's fire if he can't manipulate smoker's smoke. And second he has way more attacks he can spam besides entei, like the fire fist, flame pillar, the fire gun attack, firefly technique, fire lance, cross fire, flame net, mirror flame. There are fuck loads of attacks he can spam to keep Law at bay and if Law can't connect a mes there's no way he can win. I'm not saying Law can't beat him but most likely ace will win.





Kishido said:


> Are you nuts?
> 
> Ace has stopped growing after the fight or Jinbe was able to  or Jinbe was able to grow on the same level as Ace after their fight... Same as he will growth on the same level as the M3 from now on.



Ace stopped growing? Wtf is this shit. If Ace was alive he would be much stronger than he was preskip. He was even said to have the potential to be pirate king. He only stopped that ambition bcuz of WB but he was still obviously stronger than when he fought Jinbe, why would he stop growing?


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Feb 21, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> So what was Alabasta Sanji more durable and enduring then Mr.1?
> 
> If not then Zoro can one shot him, and nothings changed. If anything Zoro has increased the gap between himself and Sanji.



Because growth rate has to be 10 for everyone always, right ? Sanji should be fucked up after a Shishi Sonson . Dead ? Hell, no, he took Dofla's attack head on and it would take way more than Shishi Sonson to finish him . Sanji will lose adventually giving off High-Extreme Difficulty(As currently stands I'm saying Zoro wins with High Difficulty), Zoro will not  one shot him . He can fuck up Sanji if he gets a free shot(Not counting slashing the head off, of course) ? Yes, he will fuck up Sanji in a level that is not even funny with one free shot, but Sanji will still get up and be able to fight .


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 21, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Zoro can definitely injure Sanji, but to straight out cut him in half ? Could be possible but i don't see it as a casual feat for him to achieve. For example Doflamingo used his strings to severe one of Oars legs at MF _
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm glad that  you could see it happening but it really probably is a matter of opinion. As for the second point. I would expect a move like Daishinkan to hurt Sanji more than five coloured strings.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 21, 2014)

tupadre97 said:


> Lol dude this is not a seinen and op fights don't even work like that. I'm saying that its just as ridiculous to say HM would turn zoro to ash and that zoro can cut thru Sanji. That will never happen in an OP fight against equal opponents. And what makes you think Sanji can't just fly in the air with blue walk and charge up HM out of zoro's range?



I'm not saying that it would happen in the manga but here is different. You may think they are equal and that's fine but i'm not repeating what I said to that new guy to you. If Sanji runs up high in the air, Zoro can stay on the ground and spam sword slashes. The second Sanji stops to think about bad memories he'll get a cut. He won't get the chance to activate it. Unless he wants to risk injuries.


----------



## tanman (Feb 21, 2014)

tupadre97 said:


> Well first off there's no way Law can manipulate ace's fire if he can't manipulate smoker's smoke.



1. What gave you the impression that Law couldn't manipulate Smoker's smoke?
2. Smoker makes himself bigger using his smoke while Ace uses his fire in the form of projectiles. These are totally different functions with totally different properties.



tupadre97 said:


> And second he has way more attacks he can spam besides entei, like the fire fist, flame pillar, the fire gun attack, firefly technique, fire lance, cross fire, flame net, mirror flame. There are fuck loads of attacks he can spam to keep Law at bay and if Law can't connect a mes there's no way he can win. I'm not saying Law can't beat him but most likely ace will win.



Nothing besides Entei will fill up the room as you suggested. All of these projectiles can be avoided easily. We are talking about a character that was completely unharmed by Fujitora's meteor. Ace has no choice but to get in close against someone like that.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 21, 2014)

tanman said:


> 1. What gave you the impression that Law couldn't manipulate Smoker's smoke?
> 2. Smoker makes himself bigger using his smoke while Ace uses his fire in the form of projectiles. These are totally different functions with totally different properties.
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe because we have no clue as to how Doflamingo's ability fully works... he may be able to imbue his strings with haki to then place them on smoker's smoke he released from his body but i doubt it'd be possible... maybe, but I am not fully sure..


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 21, 2014)

I wonder, could Law control even intangible objects like a logia?


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 21, 2014)

tanman said:


> Nothing besides Entei will fill up the room as you suggested. All of these projectiles can be avoided easily. We are talking about a character that was completely unharmed by Fujitora's meteor. Ace has no choice but to get in close against someone like that.


The range and size of Ace's fire attacks are _huge_. There's no reason for Ace to ever get in close range with Law and avoiding those flame attacks won't be as simple as you're suggesting.

Fujitora's meteor, while extremely powerful, was avoided by Law because it was still an inanimate object that had no Haki applied to it...so I'm a little unsure why you're using that feat to help Law's case against Ace here.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 21, 2014)

I think tanman is trying to say that projectile attacks like hiken, and the fireflies, and cross fire will be redirected by Law the second they even come close to him. If not correct me tanman.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 21, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> I think tanman is trying to say that projectile attacks like hiken, and the fireflies, and cross fire will be redirected by Law the second they even come close to him. If not correct me tanman.


But saying that would be assuming that Ace won't be applying Haki to his flame attacks (which he definitely will be) in order to resist Law's Room abilities.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 21, 2014)

We cannot say Ace can imbue them with haki especially when he has never showed anything but CotC and we don't even know Ace's level of haki so that shouldn't even be in there. We can only go by things we have seen not what we want to see. We cannot say Ace could block Law with haki imbued in it. Haki doesn't nullify devil fruits. Law has better haki than Ace right now because Ace hasn't shown any other than Cotc. We can't randomly give him something and say it will be good enough to stop Law. That's making things up to suit an agenda.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 21, 2014)

Can ace even apply haki to his flames? A person can apply it to a specific part of their body, usually their limbs, and most character who're experts in wielding and fighting with weapons tend to strengthen their weapons with haki to improve the defensive capability of their weapon and its force for causing more damage than it should normally cause without the use of haki. Reason for this would be because either their limbs or the object they're holding with their hand is making contact with their body which is the primal source of haki that is being imbued to a certain object/body-part. However, these are all of the conventional methods one can use with the use of haki to an object. Logia's being capable of imbuing their element with haki seems kind of confusing to me.  I will be arguing against myself; Argument that is in favor of a person's logia element being a plausible form of matter that can be applied with haki; Haven't seen anyone do it before. But since Kizaru's light is coming off his body which is making contact with "the source of haki" he should be able to imbue it with haki.  Rebuttal to the latter statement; I don't think it can be applied to a logia's long range elemental attack for the purpose of strengthening the attack. Kizaru's lasers that were shot at marco were unable to harm marco's devil fruit zoan form that is normally invincible to conventional attacks but prone to damage with the use of haki, like all other devil fruit defenses. Kizaru would've imbued his lasers with Haki if he would have engaged in a fight against marco because he is aware that marco's phoenix form regenerates from attacks.

If ben beckman can imbue his bullets with haki which are independent objects separating itself from the source of the haki, then why can't logia's do the same? You probably can such as infusing it with guns and bullets to use against Logia users.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 21, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> We cannot say Ace can imbue them with haki especially when he has never showed anything but CotC and we don't even know Ace's level of haki so that shouldn't even be in there. We can only go by things we have seen not what we want to see. We cannot say Ace could block Law with haki imbued in it. Haki doesn't nullify devil fruits. Law has better haki than Ace right now because Ace hasn't shown any other than Cotc. We can't randomly give him something and say it will be good enough to stop Law. That's making things up to suit an agenda.



It looked like i was contradicting myself because i was zealous in disproving why Ace doesn't have haki the other day yet here I am saying whether ace, the person whom i believed to not have haki, can use haki  just using ace as an example like any other logias in order to prove if they can use haki for their long range elemental attacks...


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 21, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> We cannot say Ace can imbue them with haki especially when he has never showed anything but CotC and we don't even know Ace's level of haki so that shouldn't even be in there. We can only go by things we have seen not what we want to see. We cannot say Ace could block Law with haki imbued in it. *Haki doesn't nullify devil fruits*. Law has better haki than Ace right now because Ace hasn't shown any other than Cotc. We can't randomly give him something and say it will be good enough to stop Law. That's making things up to suit an agenda.


First off I never said that Ace's Haki could nullify Law's DF, I said that it would help *resist* against it (similar to how Smoker was using Haki to protect himself against Law).

Second, it really isn't all that far fetched to believe that Ace has CoA. He's an experienced fighter in the NW, he displayed the rarest type when he was a *child*, and literally every other WB commander we've seen fighting used it as well.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 21, 2014)

Prior to being released off to somewhere, the object, like an elemental projectile attack, is attached to the part of the limb that is oozing haki to it. Similar to Ben beckman infusing his haki to his bullets. Ben beckman's bullets are imbued with haki because they're the recipient being fed by haki from the gun that is held by the source of the haki, the limb holding the gun. I believe that if the kuja's can imbue their arrows with haki, kizaru, or any other logias for that matter, can do the same since both the concepts are akin.  Color of armanent cannot be equipped to attacks that are not from one's body except for weapons, or anything generated from one's own body (like Ace's fire, Marco's flames or any other Logia attack). So, a person's attack that derives from their own body can combine their Haki and Devil Fruit powers together to a form a mix of the original attack that is stronger this time.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 21, 2014)

​


Kings Disposition said:


> First off I never said that Ace's Haki could nullify Law's DF, I said that it would help *resist* against it (similar to how Smoker was using Haki to protect himself against Law).
> 
> Second, it really isn't all that far fetched to believe that Ace has CoA. He's an experienced fighter in the NW, he displayed the rarest type when he was a *child*, and literally every other WB commander we've seen fighting used it as well.



Nullify and resist are almost the same in the sense that he is nullifying Law's ability but that's semantics.

 It really doesn't matter what he is. The fact of the matter is that we cannot give him haki and say that he could stop Law from doing whatever he wants with them as we have not seen him use it so we can't just give it to him because we feel like it. Adding in haki won't even make sense as we don't even know his possible level in it and him having high haki is nothing more than speculation. Bottom line is: We can't say he has sufficient haki to do so as he hasn't showed it so we should leave that out of the fight.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 21, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Nullify and resist are almost the same in the sense that he is nullifying Law's ability but that's semantics.


They're not the same. Nullify is literally synonymous with negate (similar to how Blackbeard negates Devil Fruits) and that's not what I'm talking about here at all.



Slenderman said:


> It really doesn't matter what he is. The fact of the matter is that we cannot give him haki and say that he could stop Law from doing whatever he wants with them as we have not seen him use it so we can't just give it to him because we feel like it. Adding in haki won't even make sense as we don't even know his possible level in it and him having high haki is nothing more than speculation.


I'm not saying that having it completely shuts down everything Law can do. I'm saying that Ace can use CoA to resist against Law's DF abilities just like Smoker used it to protect himself against Law. 



Slenderman said:


> Bottom line is: We can't say he has sufficient haki to do so as he hasn't showed it so we should leave that out of the fight.


This is completely ludicrous. By your logic, I can say that Aokiji doesn't have CoA since he's never outright shown it...but clearly he does since he's above the Vice Admiral rank and fought with the likes of Akainu.

The Pirate King's son definitely deserves the benefit of the doubt in regards to having CoA here....especially after considering:


Kings Disposition said:


> He's an experienced fighter in the NW, he displayed the rarest type when he was a *child*, and literally every other WB commander we've seen fighting used it as well.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 21, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> They're not the same. Nullify is literally synonymous with negate (similar to how Blackbeard negates Devil Fruits) and that's not what I'm talking about here at all.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that having it completely shuts down everything Law can do. I'm saying that Ace can use CoA to resist against Law's DF abilities just like Smoker used it to protect himself against Law.
> ...



Your Aokiji example is extremely moot. Attaining the vice admiral rank which is just below admiral isn't easy. To achieve said rank, there are certain prerequisites to be followed; Person must have both mastery over CoO and CoA. Aokiji had haki by virtue of his rank, whereas ace's rank isn't a rank in which you'd need haki to achieve. Therefore, there is no correlation between Aokiji having haki and ace supposedly having it just because he's powerful which does not necessarily translate to a person having haki. Furthermore, aokiji fighting akainu does not mean that he had haki... his powerful fruit alone is more than enough for him to contend with Akainu.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 22, 2014)

Mirage said:


> Your Aokiji example is extremely moot. Attaining the vice admiral rank which is just below admiral isn't easy. To achieve said rank, there are certain prerequisites to be followed; Person must have both mastery over CoO and CoA. Aokiji had haki by virtue of his rank, whereas ace's rank isn't a rank in which you'd need haki to achieve. Therefore, there is no correlation between Aokiji having haki and ace supposedly having it just because he's powerful which does not necessarily translate to a person having haki.* Furthermore, aokiji fighting akainu does not mean that he had haki... his powerful fruit alone is more than enough for him to contend with Akainu.*


Way to completely miss the point of that example.  

And /facepalm @ the bolded.


----------



## Venom (Feb 22, 2014)

@Kings Disposition
Like Mirage already stated there is no way an Admiral can be an Admiral without having Haki.
It is a condition to be one whereas there is nothing for Ace's favour that proves that he also had Haki.
There was never a statement or even a hint that would support this idea.
That he is the son of the PK does not make up for missing facts.

And furthermore I want to say that a clean hit of Shi Shishi Sonson or an Asura would not just "damage" a Sanji. 
Not that Sanji would just let himself hit but *if* it would come to this then there is no way that Sanji could stand up again.
He would either be cut clean in half or lose a limb/head.
You forget that the sheer deadliness of a sword in the hands of a master kenshi is only "rivaled" by abilities like Akainu's magmafist 
so you can't compare Sanji's strongest attack to Zoro's strongest attack.

And here in the OPBD we are not bound to Oda's restrictions like defeat an enemy but not kill him or other stuff like being able to cut things in half but not do it.
I mean Zoro's attack cuts steel in half in the same panel where it only "hurts" his enemies.


----------



## HaxHax (Feb 22, 2014)

Zoro > Whitebeard ez shi shishi sonson to the face. Whitebeard can't even dodge fodders with swords.

Rules of the OPBD. Here we are not bound by formalities such as "never going to happen in the manga I'm talking about".

P.S. have you ever noticed how Zoro never fights opponents that actively dodge? All of his real opponents decide at some point that it's a great idea to tank Zoro's strongest moves head on. 

Maybe you should consider the possibility that Zoro hitting his attacks in the first place is more plot based than Zoro not instantaneously cutting his enemies in half. Since we're just making up the rules as we go along, anyway.


----------



## Venom (Feb 22, 2014)

HaxHax said:


> Zoro > Whitebeard ez shi shishi sonson to the face. Whitebeard can't even dodge fodders with swords.
> 
> Rules of the OPBD. Here we are not bound by formalities such as "never going to happen in the manga I'm talking about".
> 
> ...



Yes the OPBD works under my rules 

I said that Zoro could cut him like this *if* Sanji would let himself get hit by Zoro.
Right after that I said that Sanji in a real fight would not let himself get hit that easily.
So what is the problem? 
Never did i say that Zoro would one shot Sanji. On the contrary I always say that Sanji would give him a High Diff fight.

@BP:
Don't know what your problem with Zoro is or what he did to you that you always downplay him at any given opportunity.
But use this


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 22, 2014)

Venom said:


> It is a condition to be one whereas there is nothing for Ace's favour that proves that he also had Haki.
> There was never a statement or even a hint that would support this idea.
> That he is the son of the PK does not make up for missing facts.



*Literally every other WB commander that we've seen in action has displayed CoA:*

Jozu - Confirmed when he attacked Aokiji
Marco - Confirmed when he attacked both Aokiji and Kizaru
Vista - Confirmed by Akaniu's comment

*Literally every other person that showed CoC has also displayed CoA:*

Luffy - displayed hardening, punched Caesar 
Silvers Rayleigh - kicked Kizaru leg, blocked an elephant's stomp 
Shanks - sword wasn't melted when he blocked Akainu
Boa Hancock - kicked Smoker off Luffy
Don Chinjao - displayed hardening against Luffy
Doflamingo - cut up Smoker, wasn't burned by Sanji's kicks 

(Tashigi has CoA and she isn't even a Vice Admiral. Random Kuja tribe members have CoA and they're freakin fodder for pete's sake).

Ace falls under BOTH of the above categories (CoC _before even becoming a pirate_ + WB Commander), is a veteran in the New World where pirates can't survive just by being a Logia (as Pekoms put it), and has the blood of the strongest man who has ever lived (making him one of the biggest contenders of being Pirate King) yet you say that there aren't any hints of him having the most basics of Haki just because Oda didn't spell it out for you? Come on now.....

What's next? 2nd Division Commander of the Whitebeard Pirates can't even beat the likes of Enel or Caribou since he can't touch them? This is getting ridiculous.


----------



## Venom (Feb 22, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> *Literally every other WB commander that we've seen in action has displayed CoA:*
> 
> Jozu - Confirmed when he attacked Aokiji
> Marco - Confirmed when he attacked both Aokiji and Kizaru
> ...



I am more concerned about your obsession to the view that being the PK's son somehow grants you Haki out of nowhere.
I am sticking to my view. I also believe that he had it but it is not stated and as long as it is not stated or hinted at I won't put it in the list of his abilities. 
But this is just me if you think otherwise it is ok I guess.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 22, 2014)

Venom said:


> I am more concerned about your obsession to the view that being the PK's son somehow grants you Haki out of nowhere.


Cool...ignore everything else I took into account in that entire post.


----------



## tanman (Feb 22, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> The range and size of Ace's fire attacks are _huge_. There's no reason for Ace to ever get in close range with Law and avoiding those flame attacks won't be as simple as you're suggesting.
> 
> Fujitora's meteor, while extremely powerful, was avoided by Law because it was still an inanimate object that had no Haki applied to it...so I'm a little unsure why you're using that feat to help Law's case against Ace here.



Considering the minimum/maximum size of Law's room and what he's been able to do from a distance, I'm going to need a specific example of what it is you think that Ace can do from a distance that Law can't handle.

Are you suggesting that Ace's projectile attacks are alive?
Or that they're imbued with Haki?
I don't see why that comparison would be anything other than concrete.


Saying that Ace probably has CoA is totally different from saying he can imbue it into his projectiles and it's strong enough to impede Law. The latter is just rampant speculation.


----------



## Venom (Feb 22, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Cool...ignore everything else I took into account in that entire post.



I did not ignore it.
I would even agree with you (except the CoC part which is somehow irrelevant)
But nevertheless Ace having CoA is still not stated nor hinted at.


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 22, 2014)

Venom said:


> I am more concerned about your obsession to the view that being the PK's son somehow grants you Haki out of nowhere.
> I am sticking to my view. I also believe that he had it *but it is not stated and as long as it is not stated or hinted at I won't put it in the list of his abilities.*
> But this is just me if you think otherwise it is ok I guess.


so does that mean in a VS. matchup, we can't say mihawk has haki, thus he'll lose to any logia? same goes for people like shiryu.

before burgess showed CoA, people were saying stuff like 'no he doesn't have haki, he was fodder to ace preTS, and he won't have it just because he's a yonkou commander now' and guess what! he has haki, pretty good one too, why? well its obviously because he's a yonkou commander now, they rule the NW for a reason, i mean even pekoms has haki, and he's not a higher up in BM's crew, so why not ace? also i'm willing to bet that not a single one here thinks that any of the top brass of shanks/kaido/BM/BB crew would be lacking haki.


----------



## tanman (Feb 22, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> so does that mean in a VS. matchup, we can't say mihawk has haki, thus he'll lose to any logia? same goes for people like shiryu.



The difference is that Ace was at a much more reasonable level to be lacking in Haki skills. 

Yes. This should be taken into consideration. Particularly when Ace didn't even show the quality of his CoC, let alone other types of Haki, and Jinbe, his rival, didn't have Haki.

As for the rest of your argument, no. I don't necessarily think all of the top five members of every Yonkou crew we meet will demonstrate Haki that can impede Law. And I'll repeat, saying that Ace probably has CoA is totally different from saying he can imbue it into his projectiles and it's strong enough to impede Law. The latter is just rampant speculation.


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 22, 2014)

tanman said:


> The difference is that Ace was at a much more reasonable level to be lacking in Haki skills.
> 
> Yes. This should be taken into consideration. Particularly when Ace didn't even show the quality of his CoC, let alone other types of Haki, and Jinbe, his rival, didn't have Haki.
> 
> As for the rest of your argument, no. I don't necessarily think all of the top five members of every Yonkou crew we meet will demonstrate Haki that can impede Law. And I'll repeat, saying that Ace probably has CoA is totally different from saying he can imbue it into his projectiles and it's strong enough to impede Law. The latter is just rampant speculation.


that doesn't really matter, there's a lot of haki-users that are weaker than non haki-users. and i've seen quite a few people who think that mihawk is not a haki user. anyway, can we or can't, say mihawk is a haki-user, when he neither have shown it, or hinted to have it?

i dunno which section are u replying with this second line, but i have two things to say:
ace > jimbie. ace growth-rate > jimbie's(proven) so ace had around 3 years to surpass jimbie.
jimbie could well be a haki-user, he managed to hurt two logia-users, ace and caribou.

i agree with the last part, out of the WB commanders, i'd say only jozu and marco have haki that can resist law's ability's, although i think haki can be imbued into projectiles.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 22, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> so does that mean in a VS. matchup, we can't say mihawk has haki, thus he'll lose to any logia? same goes for people like shiryu.


That's exactly what these people are saying and it's ridiculous. 

If there was a battledome match up between Mihawk and Enel right now, they'll say Mihawk would lose because "he's never shown CoA, therefore we should leave it out of the fight." If they don't, then they're complete hypocrites. 



tanman said:


> Considering the minimum/maximum size of Law's room and what he's been able to do from a distance, I'm going to need a specific example of what it is you think that Ace can do from a distance that Law can't handle.





Even Law would be hard pressed constantly avoiding attacks with a range + area of effect of that magnitude. 



tanman said:


> Are you suggesting that Ace's projectile attacks are alive?
> Or that they're imbued with Haki?
> I don't see why that comparison would be anything other than concrete.


I'm suggesting that he can imbue Haki into his attacks.

Anyone that uses CoA is able to imbue it to their body. Do agree with this notion? Yes or no?

Hiken for example is literally apart of his body (though it looks like a projectile). And like anything else that's a part of the body, Haki can be imbued to it. 



tanman said:


> Saying that Ace probably has CoA is totally different from saying he can imbue it into his projectiles and it's strong enough to impede Law. The latter is just rampant speculation.


I guess Akainu and Aokiji fought each other for 10 days only using cqc with Haki....I mean with all that Magma and Ice (enough to permanent change the climate) on the island, there's no way that they actually tried hitting each other with vast amounts of their respective elements imbued with Haki...nope no way at all. /endsarcasm


----------



## Venom (Feb 22, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> so does that mean in a VS. matchup, we can't say mihawk has haki, thus he'll lose to any logia? same goes for people like shiryu.
> .



First of all
Mihawk is on a whole league above Ace.

2.
Zoro trained under him for 2 years and learned Haki.
He was the only teacher there and Zoro did not learn it by himself.
Ace in the contrary has nothing which would support the idea of him having Haki.


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 22, 2014)

Venom said:


> First of all
> Mihawk is on a whole league above Ace.
> 
> 2.
> ...


i already said that there are plenty of non haki users that are stronger than haki users. so that doesn't matter
so i guess its confirmed that ivankov is a haki user? cause then i'm sure most people would disagree.

and what about shiryu? does he lose to caribou now?


----------



## Venom (Feb 22, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> i already said that there are plenty of non haki users that are stronger than haki users. so that doesn't matter
> so i guess its confirmed that ivankov is a haki user? cause then i'm sure most people would disagree.
> 
> and what about shiryu? does he lose to caribou now?



I see Shiryu on a level above Ace as well.
On a level where it is necessary. Ace (for me at least) was still not at that level.
But again I already stated that I believe that Ace has it.
Just want it to be stated as the Haki thing was common only after the timeskip and only few people had it pre TS.
And no I actually have no doubts that Ivankov has Haki.

But seriously though I am tired of debating this shit.
Zoro/Law take this for me regardless of whether Ace has Haki or not.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 22, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> That's exactly what these people are saying and it's ridiculous.
> 
> If there was a battledome match up between Mihawk and Enel right now, they'll say Mihawk would lose because "he's never shown CoA, therefore we should leave it out of the fight." If they don't, then they're complete hypocrites.
> 
> ...




I honestly like you as a poster and can understand why you're arguing in favor of ace having haki, but you need to understand the difference between a fact and speculation.  Again, you're talking about your interpretation. If you are familiar with fact in scientific terms, you cannot call it a fact that Ace has haki because it has never been mentioned in the manga. It is your theory, your hypothesis. And only when it is confirmed - not interpreted - can it be called a fact because that is not how facts are deduced. You are simply wrong on this one. You cannot claim it's a fact that Ace can use Color of armanent when the only proof you have is your opinion and his potential to master the CoC. That does not make it a fact. A fact is an objective and verifiable observation, as opposed to a theory or a hypothesis. What you have is a theory. And it can only be called a fact if the theory is confirmed - that is, if you can provide me of a scan stating that Ace has haki. Please don't argue against this.

Your speculations are not needed because they are irrelevant. Only if you provide legitimate scans will people tend to take your more seriously. I'm in no way interested in this thread, I just came here to throw my two cents about your irrational "Opinion"

If you can't put out a decent argument or give proof as to why ace has haki, than I will deliberately assume that you are grasping at straws.


----------



## tanman (Feb 22, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Even Law would be hard pressed constantly avoiding attacks with a range + area of effect of that magnitude.



That's certainly a large attack.
But again, size is a feature that Law's fruit ignores for all intents and purposes. Now if you had a very good speed feat for one of Ace's attacks, I would be singing a different tune.




Kings Disposition said:


> I'm suggesting that he can imbue Haki into his attacks.



Without evidence there's no argument to be had.
Molding and manipulating CoA for practical use is totally different from having it. And there isn't even evidence of him having it. Your speculating on multiple levels.




Kings Disposition said:


> Anyone that uses CoA is able to imbue it to their body. Do agree with this notion? Yes or no?



Yes.



Kings Disposition said:


> Hiken for example is literally apart of his body (though it looks like a projectile). And like anything else that's a part of the body, Haki can be imbued to it.



Firstly, it isn't a part of his body. You can see clearly in the scans that your provided that the attack doesn't make his fist larger. It simply shoots fire from his fist. If it were a part of his body, someone could hurt him by hitting his blast.

*
Also, and it's very important that you understand this part, even if he both has Haki and can apply Haki to his Hiken that doesn't mean his Haki is suddenly strong enough to in anyway prevent Law from cutting in two easily.*




Kings Disposition said:


> I guess Akainu and Aokiji fought each other for 10 days only using cqc with Haki....I mean with all that Magma and Ice (enough to permanent change the climate) on the island, there's no way that they actually tried hitting each other with vast amounts of their respective elements imbued with Haki...nope no way at all. /endsarcasm



Your attempt at sarcasm is very much misguided when I'm clearly not saying that Haki can't be imbued into projectiles. Fujitora can very likely put Haki in his meteors just like Akainu can put Haki in his projectile magma fists.

But *you don't seem to understand that other characters doing something isn't evidence that Ace can do it.*


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 22, 2014)

Shit, i am on my phone, kind of fucked up my post above... damn


----------



## tanman (Feb 22, 2014)

It's also important to understand that not having Haki does not mean you loose to every logia. That's moronic. Luffy beat Crocodile. Franky manhandled Caribou.

If you're much stronger, you'll figure out how to win anyway. 
Also, the primary reason one can get behind Mihawk having Haki is that Zoro learned it under his tutelage.


----------



## Typhon (Feb 22, 2014)

Zoro and Law since I'm in the camp that Luffy surpassed Ace. Plus Law's room is annoying for a fighter like Ace. I don't see why Law can't deal with Entei. It's not like he actually has to switch it with something when he can just cut it down the middle.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 22, 2014)

tanman said:


> That's certainly a large attack.
> But again, *size is a feature that Law's fruit ignores for all intents and purposes*. Now if you had a very good speed feat for one of Ace's attacks, I would be singing a different tune.


Only when it's an inanimate object with no Haki applied to it.  



tanman said:


> Without evidence there's no argument to be had.
> Molding and manipulating CoA for practical use is totally different from having it. And there isn't even evidence of him having it. Your speculating on multiple levels.


And there's no evidence of Law manipulating Haki imbued attacks that are a part of an opponents main body. Hardly anything supports that speculation, while there's _plenty_ that suggests Ace can use Haki (which helps resist against Law's abilities as shown in his fight with Smoker).



tanman said:


> *Firstly, it isn't a part of his body.* You can see clearly in the scans that your provided that *the attack doesn't make his fist larger. It simply shoots fire from his fist.* If it were a part of his body, someone could hurt him by hitting his blast.


Wrong. Everything you just said here is made completely incorrect by the words of Oda himself in this SBS below:




> _R: Question, Odacchi! Ace ate the Mera Mera no Mi so he can...[2]
> 
> (1) "Can turn his body into flame"?
> (2) "Can shoot flame from his body", which one is it?
> *O: The answer is (1). But his secret move "Hiken" (Fire Punch) is a skill where he raises his "firepower" and turns his fist into a huge flame, so it ends up looking more like (2)*._



Hiken is when he turns his fist (a part of his body) into flame and expands it to a gigantic size. It's not to be thought of fully as a projectile (even though it looks like one) that shoots out, but more akin to a huge fist (similar to Gear Third and Dai Funka) that's acts as an extension of his body. 

And since Haki can applied to the body (which is a notion that you just agreed with), it's logical to assume that he can apply Haki to that attack.



tanman said:


> Also, and it's very important that you understand this part, even if he both has Haki and can apply Haki to his Hiken that doesn't mean his Haki is suddenly strong enough to in anyway prevent Law from cutting in two easily.


And the reverse is true to you. If Ace applies Haki to his moves, you can't just assume that Law's Haki is far superior in that he'd be able to "easily avoid" (you're words) all of Ace's attacks.



tanman said:


> Your attempt at sarcasm is very much misguided when I'm clearly not saying that Haki can't be imbued into projectiles. Fujitora can very likely put Haki in his meteors just like Akainu can put Haki in his projectile magma fists.
> 
> But you don't seem to understand that other characters doing something isn't evidence that Ace can do it.


No...the difference between the two is that Akainu's attacks are a direct extension of his body (just like Ace's), while Fujitora's meteors aren't directly connected to his body at all...which means he can't apply Haki to them and it's why they were easily manipulated (despite their destructiveness) by Law's abilities (the same can't be said about Ace's attacks).


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 22, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> They're not the same. Nullify is literally synonymous with negate (similar to how Blackbeard negates Devil Fruits) and that's not what I'm talking about here at all.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that having it completely shuts down everything Law can do. I'm saying that Ace can use CoA to resist against Law's DF abilities just like Smoker used it to protect himself against Law.
> ...



He nullified Law's fruit affects. But whatever that's completely different. Kuzan does have haki as to become a VA you need it. Hence he has it. Is there anywhere in the manga where it says that to become a WB commander you must know haki or being that PK's son you must have COA? No such rule is existent and Ace cannot imbue his flames with haki as he has never shown it. No matter how much you don't want to believe it that's the bottom line. You can't give Ace something that he does have/hasn't shown/hasn't been implied that he has it. Period.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 22, 2014)

Also to all Ace supporters: Don't use the Mihawk topic. Zoro learned from somebody. Hence it's hinted that Mihawk has haki while there's no hints for Ace. *That isn't made off of fan speculation. *


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 22, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Also to all Ace supporters: Don't use the Mihawk topic. Zoro learned from somebody. Hence it's hinted that Mihawk has haki while there's no hints for Ace. That isn't made off of fan speculation.



*Hypocrite confirmed*. We've never seen Mihawk use Haki in the manga. Mihawk teaching Haki to Zoro was never shown in the manga. Yet you give Mihawk the benefit of doubt of having Haki but not to Ace despite all of his hints: 



Kings Disposition said:


> *Literally every other WB commander that we've seen in action has displayed CoA:*
> 
> Jozu - Confirmed when he attacked Aokiji
> Marco - Confirmed when he attacked both Aokiji and Kizaru
> ...


*The manga heavily implies that Ace has it. Stop using hints to support one character while ignoring all the hints for another character.*


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 22, 2014)

Marco, Vista, and Jozu were not the only other commanders.

Also, when Luffy used CoC for the first time he didn't have CoA, which proves that having CoC doesn't automatically imply CoA.

Not saying he didn't have it but damn those are bad examples.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 22, 2014)

1. Ace can use haki. Arguing otherwise makes you look like a joke.

2. Zoro and law wins cause law is hax.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 22, 2014)

Halcyon said:


> Marco, Vista, and Jozu were not the only other commanders.


I specifically stated every other commander _we've seen in action_....



Halcyon said:


> Also, when Luffy used CoC for the first time he didn't have CoA, which proves that having CoC doesn't automatically imply CoA.


Luffy displayed signs of CoC by the end of Paradise and learned Haki in less than 2 years afterwards. Ace displayed signs of CoC when he was a *child* (_before even becoming a pirate_) and later became a New World (where pirates don't survive just by being a Logia as Pekoms put it) veteran. 2 + 2 here...

Furthermore, literally* every other* CoC user has shown CoA once given the chance.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Ace can use haki. Arguing otherwise makes you look like a joke.


This.


----------



## Dae2 (Feb 22, 2014)

As great as Law's ability is, it does have limitations. First, he can only affect things in his room. Second, every use of his power requires a gesture, meaning it can blocked (like Smoker was able to do during his fight with Law) or dodged (like Doflamingo did during their fight). Ace isn't weak and doesn't seem like a dumb fighter, and his powers would make things difficult for Law if he is constantly having to deal with the likelihood of an ever increasing amount of fire. In their battle I believe Ace would come out on top.

That is of course if Law and Ace battle with each other and not with either Sanji or Zoro.

But of course Sanji and Zoro are going to fight each other, how would they not? And their fight wouldn't even matter much, since whoever wins (leaning towards Zoro but it could be either) won't be able to deal with Law or Ace after their fight. 

So all that said...

Law and Zoro would win since their powers gel better and Ace's and Sanji's, allowing the two of them to work better as a team and take out their opponents. The key will be Law moving Zoro around the field to engage with either Sanji or Ace, leaving them unable to defend against Law's power. Given that Ace and Sanji both use a lot of fire, there will be burns and Zoro will probably at one point be taken down, but not before doing enough damage to allow Law to clean up.


----------



## tanman (Feb 22, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Only when it's an inanimate object with no Haki applied to it.



Okay. I don't see what an object's nature as animate has to do with anything. Nor do I see your providing evidence that Ace can use CoA in combination with any ofhis techniques nor that Fujitora wouldn't.




Kings Disposition said:


> And there's no evidence of Law manipulating Haki imbued attacks that are a part of an opponents main body. Hardly anything supports that speculation,



Law v. Smoker
Law v. Vergo

Uhh..what?



Kings Disposition said:


> while there's _plenty_ that suggests Ace can use Haki (which helps resist against Law's abilities as shown in his fight with Smoker).



Ace has no CoA feats at all. How in the world can you compare what he can do to what Smoker can do? Smoker actual has concrete CoA feats and it's a central part of his technique. Just because he "can" (and it's really a "might") do something does not establish that he can do it to any effect.






Kings Disposition said:


> Wrong. Everything you just said here is made completely incorrect by the words of Oda himself in this SBS below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're really butchering what Oda is saying with paraphrasing. He turns his fist into a giant flame. He does not expand his fist to gigantic size. Even if that were the case, it still doesn't provide evidence that he can a) apply Haki to it that would in any way threaten Law's ability to cut it, b) apply Haki to such a large surface area.

The quote by no means suggests that Ace's long range fire, which can disappear in an instant, is as much a part of Ace as Luffy's arms. By that reasoning, Aokiji should be hurt if you hit anything he is currently making cold since he is the cold itself.




Kings Disposition said:


> And the reverse is true to you. If Ace applies Haki to his moves, you can't just assume that Law's Haki is far superior in that he'd be able to "easily avoid" (you're words) all of Ace's attacks.



So feats are totally irrelevant to you?
The reverse is not true for me because I have evidence on my side. 
I'm not assuming anything.



Kings Disposition said:


> No...the difference between the two is that Akainu's attacks are a direct extension of his body (just like Ace's), while Fujitora's meteors aren't directly connected to his body at all...which means he can't apply Haki to them and it's why they were easily manipulated (despite their destructiveness) by Law's abilities (the same can't be said about Ace's attacks).



Wait, what? So you're suggesting that it's impossible to apply Haki to projectiles? So why then is it possible to apply it to swords, axes, and such even when thrown? You're also suggesting that magma fists that disappeared instantaneously upon contact with ice were entirely a part of Akainu's body?

Where are you getting all this from? Is it just an arbitrary viewpoint?



Let me demonstrate to you the problem with your argument.
Far too many assumptions:
 You assume that Ace has CoA. You assume that Ace has CoA of a quality comparable to the likes of Smoker. You assume that Ace can imbue his CoA into his Hiken (and only his Hiken for whatever reason) You assume that Ace can harden his attacks to the point where Law's Room can't affect them.

Arguing with you has actually managed to strengthen my resolve in this matter. If this is the entire counterargument, I am beginning to think that it would take less difficulty than I previously thought.


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 22, 2014)

Venom said:


> I see Shiryu on a level above Ace as well.
> *On a level where it is necessary. Ace (for me at least) was still not at that level.*
> But again I already stated that I believe that Ace has it.
> Just want it to be stated as the Haki thing was common only after the timeskip and only few people had it pre TS.
> ...


what makes u say that? and what about ivankov, is he on a level above ace too? u know, a level where haki is necessary.
being one of the top brass of a yonkou is still not at that level? even when weakass VA's like meynard has it? that's just crazy talk.
weird, u believe he has it, yet ur kinda arguing against it?! i'm confused.
wrong! haki was there, its just that we couldn't tell when it was used. which is why ODA introduced the black-hardening thing to make it visible postTS.
as i said, quiet a lot of people would disagree, and ivankov isn't a confirmed haki-user.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 23, 2014)

tanman said:


> Okay. I don't see what an object's nature as animate has to do with anything. Nor do I see your providing evidence that Ace can use CoA in combination with any ofhis techniques nor that Fujitora wouldn't.


Probably because you selectively read that sentence and ignored the "imbued Haki" part.

Its heavily implied that Ace has Haki and all his attacks come from his body. Therefore, it's safe to assume that he can apply Haki into his attacks just like every other Haki user...

Fujitora can imbue Haki into objects like his sword because it's making direct contact with his body. The same can't be said about random meteors in space. 



tanman said:


> Law v. Smoker
> Law v. Vergo


Huh? I specifically said "there's no evidence of Law manipulating Haki imbued attacks that are a part of an opponent’s main body".....Not once (in either of those fights) did Law manipulate an attack that directly came from Smoker's or Vergo's body.



tanman said:


> Ace has no CoA feats at all. How in the world can you compare what he can do to what Smoker can do? Smoker actual has concrete CoA feats and it's a central part of his technique. Just because he "can" (and it's really a "might") do something does not establish that he can do it to any effect.


So I can't assume that Ace has Haki (when there's plenty hints of him having it) but it's alright for you to assume that Law can manipulate attacks that comes from a user's body (when there's practically nothing to support that notion)?



tanman said:


> You're really butchering what Oda is saying with paraphrasing. He turns his fist into a giant flame.


Why the hell you are copying what I said earlier?

My exact words were "Hiken is when he turns his fist (a part of his body) into flame and expands it to a gigantic size"(I didn't butcher anything).

Earlier, you said that Hiken "isn't a part of his body" and that he "shoots fire" out....which is completely incorrect since Oda's answer to that SBS question was (1) not (2) as shown below:


> _R: Question, Odacchi! Ace ate the Mera Mera no Mi so he can...[2]
> 
> (1) "Can turn his body into flame"?
> (2) "Can shoot flame from his body", which one is it?
> O:The answer is (1). But his secret move "Hiken" (Fire Punch) is a skill where he raises his "firepower" and turns his fist into a huge flame, so it ends up looking more like (2)._



It honestly sounds you're agreeing with me now.



tanman said:


> He does not expand his fist to gigantic size. Even if that were the case, it still doesn't provide evidence that he can a) apply Haki to it that would in any way threaten Law's ability to cut it, b) apply Haki to such a large surface area.


It's one in the same (the attack is called Flaming *Fist* for crying out loud). Ace's fist is fire, he expands it (via being a Logia) to a huge size, and extends it outwards. 

Same with Akainu. His fist is lava, he expands it (via being a Logia) to a huge size, and extends it outwards. (Only difference is that it's in the shape of an actual fist but that's just aesthetics...the end result of the process is the same as Hiken).

Luffy does something similar as well. His fist is rubber, he expands it (via air inflation/hone fussen) to a huge size, and extends it outwards. (If he's able to encoat his G3 attacks with Haki, I'm willing to give Ace the benefit of doubt in regards to doing that as well).



tanman said:


> The quote by no means suggests that Ace's long range fire, which can disappear in an instant, is as much a part of Ace as Luffy's arms. By that reasoning, Aokiji should be hurt if you hit anything he is currently making cold since he is the cold itself.


Again, you're thinking about it as a full on projectile attack that shoots out when it's not (Oda stated that it only *looks* like projectile). Its an extension of his body. And you seem to be forgetting that Logia's can reform back to their natural state under normal circumstances, so it's really not all that strange that it disappears. (Take a look as : Crocodile's entire torso and head disappears yet he reforms back to normal on the very next page because y'know...that's what Logia's do).

That comparison fails (he's an ice man, not a cold man). A better comparison would be using Aokiji's Pheasant Peck attack where he turns his arm into ice and extendeds it outwards in the shape of a bird. And yes, the extended ice (if it isn't protected with enough Haki) would make Aokiji's body vulnerable to attacks just like any other Logia (take a look at the scan below):



Tashigi/Smoker turns her/his arm into smoke, extends it outwards to strike Luffy, Luffy successfully grabs onto the extended smoke and effectively subdues Tashigi/Smoker (which was most likely possible due to Tashigi having weaker Haki).



tanman said:


> So feats are totally irrelevant to you?
> The reverse is not true for me because I have evidence on my side.
> I'm not assuming anything.


Feats of what? Law cutting an object that had no Haki imbued into it? Yea...that reeeally helps his case against Ace here....

And you have evidence of Law manipulating Haki imbued attacks (attached to someone's main body) that are directed at him? Please, do tell.



tanman said:


> Wait, what? So you're suggesting that it's impossible to apply Haki to projectiles? So why then is it possible to apply it to swords, axes, and such even when thrown? You're also suggesting that magma fists that disappeared instantaneously upon contact with ice were entirely a part of Akainu's body?



That's not what I'm suggesting at all. 

Characters can imbue Haki into weapons (swords, guns, arrows, etc) because they're directly connected to (i.e. touching) their bodies. I’m saying the same can't be said about Fujitora's meteors because they're not directly connected to him in any shape or form. He doesn't touch the meteors to imbue Haki into them and the meteors aren't even coming from his body, he's pulling them down from space by nature of his DF. 

And yes to that last part (see above Crocodile example). Akainu turn's his fist to magma, expands it to a huge size, launches/extends said magma fist, completely neutralizes the ice, and reforms his natural body just like every other Logia can. I think the problem here is that you don’t fully understand how Logia’s work....


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 23, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> I specifically stated every other commander _we've seen in action_....


Which means absolutely nothing, considering we only saw the strongest ones.



> Luffy displayed signs of CoC by the end of Paradise and learned Haki in less than 2 years afterwards. Ace displayed signs of CoC when he was a *child* (_before even becoming a pirate_) and later became a New World (where pirates don't survive just by being a Logia as Pekoms put it) veteran. 2 + 2 here...


It's speculation to say the least. Luffy learned it after solely training haki for a year and a half straight with a known master of it. It was never stated that WB trained Ace in it, nor was it ever implied he had it, considering if he did he should've used it on Smoker in Alabasta.


As Coruscation put it in a previous thread regarding the matter,



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> 1st, IIRC, he spent 1 year on his own before meeting Whitebeard. 2nd, as I recall he also spent quite a bit of time trying to kill WB before he finally joined his crew. So he might only have been a member for about a year and a half, which wouldn't really be enough to become notably proficient with it, so maybe he just figured "screw it, my DF is good enough for now".





> Furthermore, literally* every other* CoC user has shown CoA once given the chance.


That doesn't change the fact that simply having CoC doesn't imply CoA mastery or anything of the sort. As we know, CoC is something you don't learn. CoA and CoO are things that you learn through training. We've already seen that it's possible to have one without the other.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 23, 2014)

I imagine that was a while ago as I have to say those words don't quite represent my current stance. I'm almost certain Ace had Haki at this point. But if he didn't I guess something like that would be the reason behind it.

As for the discussion on whether a Logia's long distance attacks are a part of their own bodies or not. I'm pretty sure that Logias never create their element the way that Mr. 3 or Magellan do. That's what Oda is getting at with his answer in that SBS. They don't gain the ability to create their element, they gain the ability to become their element. _But_ the end result is basically the same because they have the ability to effectively separate their body parts freely and immediately grow "new" ones. The practical result of this is that they create their element, even if it's not technically what they do. As long as their real body isn't touched via Haki, seastone, the DF's weakness or the Yami a Logia has very free reins. They can expand their own bodies to massive size if they so please (see Enel) and throw around parts of their bodies as separate projectiles. And if they get hit when their body is expanded they do take damage, again see Enel vs. Luffy. That's the reason why Vergo was lecturing Smoker on how poor a choice it was to expand and spread his body around against a deadly Haki user opponent.

If the question is whether those projectiles are still considered a full fledged body part once they have been separated (e.g. when Akainu sends out dozens of magma fists and they fall as meteors) the answer would most assuredly be no. For example, it's not as if Akainu's body got hurt when Whitebeard skewered a separated magma projectile on his bisento. At that point the connection had been severed. So there is in that way a cut-off point. What has to be determined with respect to Ace vs. Law is when that cut-off point occurs for Ace. This should probably be determined on an individual attack basis. For example, his flame lances are distinctly separated from his body. Hiken on the other hand is literally his fist enlargened. At some point he likely "releases" the fist just like Akainu and then he would no longer get hurt if it was countered.


----------



## Veltpunch (Feb 23, 2014)

Ah, the "Ace doesn't have Haki" arguments. 

For starters, Ace only had what you could barely call a fight with Smoker in the anime only, and even then it was just a tiny little scuffle. Aside from that, the concept of Haki probably wasn't even conceived way back then. At the very least, Armament Haki wasn't thought of back then. We saw the concept flourish only by Saboady, though it had been implied earlier (AH). I doubt that out of the three brothers Oda would choose to leave out one. Also, the "Whitebeard never taught Ace Haki" doesn't hold water simply because Sabo now has Haki. Who trained him? Implying that you have to have been trained in Haki to have it is asinine.

There was something that he said to Blackbeard during their fight that implied that he had AH. I'll try to find the panels for whoever wants them.

On topic: Ace is the strongest here, but I think that Law/Zoro could take this and not because Law can lol manipulate Ace's fire. Being in Law's Room would help his team out immensely. He could actually aid Zoro enough that he defeats Sanji at a lower diff than he normally would. Then they tag team Ace who cannot take the two of them. I didn't really elaborate on how Law could help Zoro because we should all be familiar with Law's ability by now.


----------



## SenZu (Feb 23, 2014)

This is a tough one because Ace has the logia advantage over Law, so his slashes wont be much of an issue. Sanji and Zoro will be fighting for a while, it will be a really long battle, and Law's fights dont last too long he can either cut it or he can't. So yea who ever wins the fight between Law and Ace helps their teammate. Imo Ace wins because of his logia advantage against Laws slashes. One mistake from Law and he takes a lot of damage.


----------



## Canute87 (Feb 23, 2014)

I used to believe that he didn't have it either but it's really coming to light too much these days in other lesser characters waving it around like nothing at all.

I understand that unlocking haki will vary from person to person but ace has new world experience on top of being a rockstar before ,  but i still can't understand why oda didn't show it. Ace must have known the importance of haki at some point after joining the WB pirates and he was plenty strong before so why at the most important fights in his last days did he not have it.

Could it be that he might not have learned the hardening aspect seeing that chances are he wasn't being taught directly by any other haki user in WB's crew it's not like WB was the ONLY person who could have taught him haki.


----------



## SenZu (Feb 23, 2014)

No one used hardening pre skip. Oda did not solidify that aspect of it.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 23, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> As for the discussion on whether a Logia's long distance attacks are a part of their own bodies or not. I'm pretty sure that Logias never create their element the way that Mr. 3 or Magellan do. That's what Oda is getting at with his answer in that SBS. They don't gain the ability to create their element, they gain the ability to become their element. _But_ the end result is basically the same because they have the ability to effectively separate their body parts freely and immediately grow "new" ones. The practical result of this is that they create their element, even if it's not technically what they do. As long as their real body isn't touched via Haki, seastone, the DF's weakness or the Yami a Logia has very free reins. They can expand their own bodies to massive size if they so please (see Enel) and throw around parts of their bodies as separate projectiles. And if they get hit when their body is expanded they do take damage, again see Enel vs. Luffy. That's the reason why Vergo was lecturing Smoker on how poor a choice it was to expand and spread his body around against a deadly Haki user opponent.


I agree with most of this and it's basically what I've been trying to tell Tanman in regards to the reforming + expanding notion that I mentioned about Logia's.



Coruscation said:


> If the question is whether those projectiles are still considered a full fledged body part once they have been separated (e.g. when Akainu sends out dozens of magma fists and they fall as meteors) the answer would most assuredly be no. For example, it's not as if Akainu's body got hurt when Whitebeard skewered a separated magma projectile on his bisento. At that point the connection had been severed. So there is in that way a cut-off point. What has to be determined with respect to Ace vs. Law is when that cut-off point occurs for Ace. This should probably be determined on an individual attack basis.


I see what you're saying but can't that also be seen as another example of WB failing to hurt an admiral possibly due to Akainu encoating his lava fist with a sufficient amount of Haki? We've seen happen twice before with his bisento against Kizaru and Aokiji.

EDIT: Nevermind. I was thinking about the dog lava attack that Whitebeard cut away, not the meteors you were talking about.



Coruscation said:


> For example, his flame lances are distinctly separated from his body.


This is true. Not every attack works exactly like Hiken and since those lances come from Ace's body, it's also safe to assume that he can imbue Haki into those lances as well.



Coruscation said:


> Hiken on the other hand is literally his fist enlargened.


Also what I've been trying to tell Tanman.



Halcyon said:


> Which means absolutely nothing, considering we only saw the strongest ones.


And *every single one* of them showed Haki once given the opportunity. And they're not all exactly equal in combat capabilities so what's you're point?



Halcyon said:


> It's speculation to say the least. Luffy learned it after solely training haki for a year and a half straight with a known master of it. It was never stated that WB trained Ace in it, nor was it ever implied he had it, considering if he did he should've used it on Smoker in Alabasta.
> 
> As Coruscation put it in a previous thread regarding the matter,


I never hinted that WB taught Haki to Ace so I don't even where that came from. The guys a Yonkou, I don't think he has the time to train every single one of his commanders how to use Haki anyways. I'm also fairly certain that most NW pirates (Supernova's included) didn't have Haki trainers either and naturally learned to use it on their own through experience. 

Take X-Drake for example, the guy immediately rushes into the NW, makes a name for himself over the years (just like Kid) possibly by getting into fights constantly, and naturally grows stronger + Haki (we've seen him attack Caribou) as a result.

And again, this is the New World....where the manga explicitly states that Logia users can't survive just by virtue of being a Logia alone. If Ace is a Logia and he successfully became a New World veteran....what does this tell us? _That Haki played a vital role into his success._

Ace was only attempting to cut off him from Luffy and his DF was naturally countering Smoker's so Haki wasn't even needed. Ace - "You may be smoke but I'm fire.....you're powers don't stand a chance against mine."

And that quote is moot as Coruscation himself stated that he has a different stance on the matter and agrees that Ace most likely has Haki. 



Halcyon said:


> That doesn't change the fact that simply having CoC doesn't imply CoA mastery or anything of the sort. As we know, CoC is something you don't learn. CoA and CoO are things that you learn through training. We've already seen that it's possible to have one without the other.


I never denied that its possible to have one without the other. I'm saying is that there's a correlation between having CoC and also having CoA. Literally *every single one* of those CoC users I listed had used CoA once given a opprotunity and I'm fairly certain Ace would've too if he had the same chance.

In addition, CoC cannot be trained and grows naturally as the as the individual does (as Rayleigh states)

Luffy started showing signs of CoC at the _end of Paradise...only after_ all of those fights + experience (including Croc, Enel, Lucci, Moria) and then learned CoA afterwards in less than two years.

Ace showed signs of CoC as a *child and before even getting into a single fight as a pirate*...what does that tell you about his potential of learning CoA? (especially after considering that he's an experienced fighter in the NW where Haki is practically a must for Logia users)


----------



## tanman (Feb 23, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Probably because you selectively read that sentence and ignored the "imbued Haki" part.



Except I specifically addressed that.



Kings Disposition said:


> Its heavily implied that Ace has Haki and all his attacks come from his body. Therefore, it's safe to assume that he can apply Haki into his attacks just like every other Haki user...



Nope. What you're suggesting is that all of a logia's element is their body. This is proven untrue by the countless times logias have suffered no penalty from their long range attacks being stopped and logias have only been hurt by getting been hit in places that are visibly a part of their body.



Kings Disposition said:


> Fujitora can imbue Haki into objects like his sword because it's making direct contact with his body. The same can't be said about random meteors in space.



So why can Amazonian women apply Haki to their arrows despite not making direct contact with them? Fujitora is applying his gravity. I don't see why Fujitora couldn't apply Haki to his gravity abilities to increase "hardness." Just as Aokiji might to increase his ice's resilience.




Kings Disposition said:


> Huh? I specifically said "there's no evidence of Law manipulating Haki imbued attacks that are a part of an opponent’s main body".....Not once (in either of those fights) did Law manipulate an attack that directly came from Smoker's or Vergo's body.



Law manipulated Vergo's entire body and took Smoker's heart out.
I don't understand what you mean.




Kings Disposition said:


> So I can't assume that Ace has Haki (when there's plenty hints of him having it) but it's alright for you to assume that Law can manipulate attacks that comes from a user's body (when there's practically nothing to support that notion)?



Except Law's entire battle experience indicates that he can. And there are no "hints" in Ace's favor, as much as we might want them.




Kings Disposition said:


> Why the hell you are copying what I said earlier?
> 
> My exact words were "Hiken is when he turns his fist (a part of his body) into flame and expands it to a gigantic size"(I didn't butcher anything).
> 
> ...



Nope. Expanding Your Body =/= Turning A Part of Your Body Into Your Element And Firing It

I am by no means agreeing with you.





Kings Disposition said:


> It's one in the same (the attack is called Flaming *Fist* for crying out loud). Ace's fist is fire, he expands it (via being a Logia) to a huge size, and extends it outwards. c



Firefist's fist creates fire. For crying out loud.
It isn't Expanding Fist Ace.




Kings Disposition said:


> Same with Akainu. His fist is lava, he expands it (via being a Logia) to a huge size, and extends it outwards. (Only difference is that it's in the shape of an actual fist but that's just aesthetics...the end result of the process is the same as Hiken).



Now you're saying that Akainu's long range magma fists are also a a part of his body. So you're saying that if someone struck one of those magmafists with a sword coated in high level Haki, Akainu would be hurt by that? Does that make any sense to you?

Akainu being hurt because he shot some magma a kilometer away from his actual body. Yet for whatever reason, he's unaffected by his fist disappearing instantaneously.





Kings Disposition said:


> Luffy does something similar as well. His fist is rubber, he expands it (via air inflation/hone fussen) to a huge size, and extends it outwards. (If he's able to encoat his G3 attacks with Haki, I'm willing to give Ace the benefit of doubt in regards to doing that as well).



G3 is a stretching ability from Gomu Gomu no mi. It has nothing to do with how logias work.

And Ace didn't train in Haki for two years. Benefit of the doubt? I'm talking about actual things that have happened in the manga.




Kings Disposition said:


> (Take a look as : Crocodile's entire torso and head disappears yet he reforms back to normal on the very next page because y'know...that's what Logia's do).



What in the world this has to do with your theory abut Ace having the ability to massively expand his body is beyond me.



Kings Disposition said:


> That comparison fails (he's an ice man, not a cold man).



That would mean hitting any part of Ice Age should hurt him. Which obviously isn't the case.

Instead let's see what unrelated comparison you used...



Kings Disposition said:


> A better comparison would be using Aokiji's Pheasant Peck attack where he turns his arm into ice and extendeds it outwards in the shape of a bird. And yes, the extended ice (if it isn't protected with enough Haki) would make Aokiji's body vulnerable to attacks just like any other Logia [/url]



Ah, yes.
Of course, you can hurt Aokiji by hitting his ice bird. What? Hitting any extended ice can hurt Aokiji? Are you proposing that Aokiji coated an island wide area in Haki and took damage when ever someone broke the ice? This is getting increasingly ridiculous.






Kings Disposition said:


> Tashigi/Smoker turns her/his arm into smoke, extends it outwards to strike Luffy, Luffy successfully grabs onto the extended smoke and effectively subdues Tashigi/Smoker (which was most likely possible due to Tashigi having weaker Haki).



That scan is of Luffy grabbing Smoker's arm. Are you providing unrelated scans so that it looks like your argument has evidence?

That's Smoker's arm not massive blast of smoke that she created. Of course, hurting it would hurt Smoker. _That's the real body._ You don't seem to understand the difference.



Kings Disposition said:


> Feats of what? Law cutting an object that had no Haki imbued into it? Yea...that reeeally helps his case against Ace here....



So are you denying that Law has cut Haki imbued objects more than once? Vergo, Doflamingo, Smoker, and probably Fuji's meteor are irrelevant?

Not to mention, he has dealt with Haki of a level far beyond what anyone can say that Ace is capable of. And considering we can assume most of Ace's attacks wouldn't have Haki since hasn't even demonstrated it or been hinted at having it, yes. Law cutting objects without Haki is very relevant.

Your use of sarcasm seems almost cartoonishly unaware of the irony.



Kings Disposition said:


> And you have evidence of Law manipulating Haki imbued attacks (attached to someone's main body) that are directed at him? Please, do tell.



Literally every encounter Law has had with an opponent that wasn't fodder.
Please reread Law v. Smoker, Vergo, and Doflamingo
Do you have evidence of Ace's Haki and its quality. If so, please do tell.






Kings Disposition said:


> That's not what I'm suggesting at all.
> 
> Characters can imbue Haki into weapons (swords, guns, arrows, etc) because they're directly connected to (i.e. touching) their bodies. I’m saying the same can't be said about Fujitora's meteors because they're not directly connected to him in any shape or form. He doesn't touch the meteors to imbue Haki into them and the meteors aren't even coming from his body, he's pulling them down from space by nature of his DF.



Oh, I see you misunderstand me.
Haki would be used to amplify Fuji's gravity not his meteors.



Kings Disposition said:


> And yes to that last part (see above Crocodile example). Akainu turn's his fist to magma, expands it to a huge size, launches/extends said magma fist, completely neutralizes the ice, and reforms his natural body just like every other Logia can.



The Crocodile example has no relevance because a) Doesn't show Crocodile extending his body and firing it some great distance, b) It doesn't show someone hurting him because of that.

I don't know what you're intention is for that example to represent.

Your explanation, while it reveals the problem in your thinking, is clearly flawed. Logias have never had to reform their bodies after their attacks were neutralized. Logias have never been shown to have multiple parts of their body in separate places while retaining independent autonomy and receptiveness to pain. Logias have never been shown to be completely unaffected by their body parts being subjected to ice and other strenuous conditions.

I think the problem here is that you don't understand how logias...




Kings Disposition said:


> I think the problem here is that you don’t fully understand how Logia’s work...



Funny. I was about to say the exact same thing to you.

The reason I don't "fully understand" probably has something to do with you defining an arbitrary set of rules that works counter to everything we've been shown about logias.

I also find it, _hilarious_, how you managed to cut Coru's post into a shape in which it looked like he agreed with your perception of logias despite him specifically emphasizing that all of these attacks must separate from the logia body at some point. Good work.

EDIT - I do appreciate you however at least admitting that Ace's lances aren't a part of his body. Now if we can just extend that to effectively all of the attacks that these logia characters do that aren't in CQC and aren't specifically treated otherwise that would be great.


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 23, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> And *every single one* of them showed Haki once given the opportunity. And they're not all exactly equal in combat capabilities so what's you're point?


They're the strongest members of WB's crew. That's my point. There are tons of other commanders who didn't demonstrate haki as well because they were weak comparatively. Just like Ace was weak when compared to those top commanders you keep raving on about.


> I never hinted that WB taught Haki to Ace so I don't even where that came from. The guys a Yonkou, I don't think he has the time to train every single one of his commanders how to use Haki anyways. I'm also fairly certain that most NW pirates (Supernova's included) didn't have Haki trainers either and naturally learned to use it on their own through experience.


I didn't say you hinted at anything, though I assumed that was where you were going with it, unless you wanted to make a completely unbalanced argument. Yes, Luffy learned CoA in a year and a half *under the tutelage of the PK's first mate.*

Ace, on the other hand, was only in WB's crew for about a year and a half and spent the majority of it chasing after BB in Paradise.



> Take X-Drake for example, the guy immediately rushes into the NW, makes a name for himself over the years (just like Kid) possibly by getting into fights constantly, and naturally grows stronger + Haki (we've seen him attack Caribou) as a result.


The differences being 
1. Drake actually has feats using CoA
2. Drake spent more time in the NW than we know Ace did
Though this is a better example than the other ones you presented.



> And again, this is the New World....where the manga explicitly states that Logia users can't survive just by virtue of being a Logia alone. If Ace is a Logia and he successfully became a New World veteran....what does this tell us? _That Haki played a vital role into his success._


That was said after an event where an inexperienced logia who thought he couldn't be touched was demolished easily. Do you consider Ace an inexperienced logia?

The manga didn't state that they can't survive, either... it said that logias who believe they're invincible by virtue of their fruit won't survive.



> Ace was only attempting to cut off him from Luffy and his DF was naturally countering Smoker's so Haki wasn't even needed. Ace - "You may be smoke but I'm fire.....you're powers don't stand a chance against mine."


It wasn't countering anything; they nullified each other. Smoker should have been fodder to the "New World Veteran" but instead he settled for just clashing when he could have done more? Please explain how this works.


> And that quote is moot as Coruscation himself stated that he has a different stance on the matter and agrees that Ace most likely has Haki.



That doesn't render anything moot.
I also agree that Ace most likely had haki as well, I was simply stating your examples were bad.




> I never denied that its possible to have one without the other. I'm saying is that there's a correlation between having CoC and also having CoA. Literally *every single one* of those CoC users I listed had used CoA once given a opprotunity and I'm fairly certain Ace would've too if he had the same chance.


This imaginary correlation business is ridiculous. Want to know why everyone who has CoC has CoA? Because this is the NW, where CoA is completely commonplace. In Paradise, it's not, which is where Ace was for the majority of his time.



> In addition, CoC cannot be trained and grows naturally as the as the individual does (as Rayleigh states)
> 
> Luffy started showing signs of CoC at the _end of Paradise...only after_ all of those fights + experience (including Croc, Enel, Lucci, Moria) and then learned CoA afterwards in less than two years.


Are these supposed to be proving something?



> Ace showed signs of CoC as a *child and before even getting into a single fight as a pirate*...what does that tell you about his potential of learning CoA? (especially after considering that he's an experienced fighter in the NW where Haki is practically a must for Logia users)


Why do you have this thought that CoC has a correlation with other types of haki, when it's explicitly stated to be completely different? I don't understand this logic at all; everyone has potential for CoA and CoO. CoC works differently. There is no 'potential' for CoA tied to CoC, nor has it ever been hinted at.


----------



## Orca (Feb 23, 2014)

Halcyon said:
			
		

> I also agree that Ace most likely had haki as well



Why do you think that?


----------



## Lmao (Feb 23, 2014)

Dear lord, Ace having Haki is still controversial? So apparently Roger's son, the man Whitebeard was grooming to become the next Pirate King didn't learn the importance of Haki in a place where everyone and their mother use it?

That aside, don't you think he wondered after many failed attempts how the hell was  Whitebeard hitting his Logia body?


----------



## Orca (Feb 23, 2014)

^Not sure if that post is directed towards me, but incase it is, I'm 99.99% confident that Ace had Haki. Just want to make it clear.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 23, 2014)

> Except he's totally a cold man.



You are wrong here. I don't know why this rumor became slightly widespread but it's completely false and always has been. Aokiji has been clearly stated multiple times, , to be an "Ice Man". His granted ability is to turn his body into ice in exactly the same way as other Logia transform their bodies into fire, magma, light, darkness, sand and so on. The definition of a Logia fruit is one that allows the user to transform their body into an element or natural force. The element in turn has certain properties. Sand is dry. Magma and fire are hot. Ice is cold. That's the point at which "cold" comes in. Aokiji's power to freeze people derives from the fact that cold is a property of his element. It isn't the base power, it's a derived one. A man whose body is made of ice is naturally very cold and can transmit that coldness. It's exactly the same as how Crocodile's sand is dry allowing his right hand to drain moistures.

This may be tangential to the discussion, for which I apologize, but I feel a compulsive need to correct this little falsehood every time I see it. It should be quickly purged as it is not and never was the case.

This should clear up the point of whether hitting Aokiji's ice hurts Aokiji though (however much of a point it was to start with). "Aokiji's ice" is really a result of him transmitting extreme cold to things around him, freezing things already there. We have rarely if ever seen him attack with his own body except in obvious cases like when he freezes someone by putting his hand on or hugging them. The fact that stuff gets really cold and frozen is completely separate from Aokiji's own body. Unlike something like Hiken, Daifunka or hypothesized big smoke fists Aokiji's case isn't really borderline/questionable at all. The separation is clear.


----------



## tanman (Feb 23, 2014)

Okay. Fair enough.
I was just basing that off the fruit's name (Hie Hie no mi, Cold Cold Fruit), which in every other case correlates with the logia's "element." 

However, it does not have any direct bearing on the case that I was making. It just means I used a semantically inaccurate example when a semantically accurate example would make the same point.


----------



## Kanki (Feb 23, 2014)

Of course Ace had bloody Haki ffs. Jesus.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 23, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> *Hypocrite confirmed*. We've never seen Mihawk use Haki in the manga. Mihawk teaching Haki to Zoro was never shown in the manga. Yet you give Mihawk the benefit of doubt of having Haki but not to Ace despite all of his hints:
> 
> 
> *The manga heavily implies that Ace has it. Stop using hints to support one character while ignoring all the hints for another character.*



Bro come on. I'm not a hypocrite. Mihawk trained Zoro. Nobody else did. Hence Mihawk is hinted to have haki. What hints does Ace have? He was a WB commander. Not all have shown haki. Training someone is a better hint than rank and blood line. In most cases.


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 23, 2014)

Doesn't Mera Mera mean spark spark?


----------



## tanman (Feb 23, 2014)

It's an onomatopoeia for fire.

Also, it's important to make a distinction between something being "heavily implied" and something been "very likely."

It's heavily implied that Kaido is currently stronger than Luffy.
It's very likely that Kaido has CoA.

Totally different things.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 23, 2014)

Does it mean that? I thought it was always flame flame.


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 23, 2014)

So did I. It's weird.

@tanman I wasn't questioning the validity of your statement or anything, I just thought it was weird. Some of the fruit names could be simpler.


----------



## tanman (Feb 23, 2014)

Yeah, I know. 
Just trying to provide clarity.
And I don't know why it's that way since the words for fire and flame are both only two syllables in Japanese meaning they would fit.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 24, 2014)

There is a part in the Ace vs. Blackbeard fight where Blackbeard is all "Zehahaha I have a Logia!" and Ace basically replies "...so?". Kinda think that does imply he has Haki. You might say it runs in contrast to his interaction with Smoker but later events take precedence over previous ones and chances are good he was just messing with the man anyway.



> I was just basing that off the fruit's name (Hie Hie no mi, Cold Cold Fruit), which in every other case correlates with the logia's "element."



Actually, the "Goro Goro no Mi" means "Rumble fruit". Which of course refers to the sound of thunder. But Enel is without any question a Lightning man. Then we've got Mr. 1 which although he's not a Logia is an example of the same thing as his fruit name, IIRC, refers to the noise of cutting even though his power is to transform his body into sharp edges. So the fruit names are just closely related in some way and won't necessary directly spell out the element.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 24, 2014)

tanman said:


> Except I specifically addressed that.


You literally ignored the "imbued Haki" part of my sentence when you responded to it by saying "I don't see what an object's nature as animate has to do with anything" without mentioning Haki anywhere in that entire sentence. 



tanman said:


> Nope.


Huh? I specifically said that "its heavily implied that Ace has Haki and all his attacks come from his body. Therefore, it's safe to assume that he can apply Haki into his attacks just like every other Haki user'
......and the first thing you first thing you said to that is "nope"?....Nope to what?

Are you saying that his attacks don't come from his body? Where does it come from then? Thin air? Magic?

Are saying that Logia's can't imbue Haki into their attacks? Why can't they?



tanman said:


> What you're suggesting is that all of a logia's element is their body. This is proven untrue by the countless times logias have suffered no penalty from their long range attacks being stopped and logias have only been hurt by getting been hit in places that are visibly a part of their body.


What.



And I never said every single Logia attack makes the user touchable...only to the ones that are still connected to the body (like the above smoke attack, like Hiken, like Dai Funka, like Pheseant Beak, etc....basically all the attacks that I previously mentioned).



tanman said:


> So why can Amazonian women apply Haki to their arrows despite not making direct contact with them? Fujitora is applying his gravity. I don't see why Fujitora couldn't apply Haki to his gravity abilities to increase "hardness." Just as Aokiji might to increase his ice's resilience.


They're two known ways CoA is applied:
1) It's applied to the body or anything that comes from the body.
2) It's applied into objects (weapons) that are making direct contact (i.e. touching) the body.

Kuja arrows fall under 2 because they're weapons are touching their bodies (and you know exactly what I'm talking about here, don't try saying crap like "well they aren't literally touching the arrows"...that's just asinine).

Fujitora can't apply Haki to the meteors because they don't fall under either category (the meteors aren't touching him and they aren't coming from his body). And he can't transfer Haki into the meteor's via his gravity DF either....we've never even seen Haki applied like that at all. If that were possible, then Law would've been able to transfer his Haki (via his Room DF) into the ground and outright kill Smoker in .



tanman said:


> Law manipulated Vergo's entire body and took Smoker's heart out.
> I don't understand what you mean.


Stop selectively reading what I'm saying then...I specifically said that "there's no evidence of Law manipulating Haki imbued *attacks* that are a part of an opponent?s main body".....Not once (in either of those fights) did Law manipulate an *attack* that directly came from Smoker's or Vergo's body."

Law hasn?t shown to manipulate any of Smokers White Blows (), he didn't manipulate any of Vergo's long range Haki darts (), and he didn't manipulate Overheat (). The only *attack* that he manipulated was Fujitora's meteor and that *attack* didn't have Haki imbued to it (for reasons i stated earlier). So for you say that Law will "easily avoid" Ace's *attack* (imbued with Haki) by using Room is completely baseless.



tanman said:


> Except Law's entire battle experience indicates that he can. And there are no "hints" in Ace's favor, as much as we might want them.


Ace has Haki......it's basically common knowledge at this point.  Stop denying it already. 
And you?re assuming that Ace?s Haki is vastly inferior to Law?s by saying things like 'he can easily avoid? Ace?s attacks. 



tanman said:


> Nope. Expanding Your Body =/= Turning A Part of Your Body Into Your Element And Firing It
> 
> Firefist's fist creates fire. For crying out loud.
> It isn't Expanding Fist Ace.
> ...


_They're one in the same when it comes to Hiken._

Expand literally means to make *bigger* or more *huge*. Logia's can turn into their element and make their bodies bigger + expand themselves in some shape or form. Projectile?s or not, that?s just how their fruits work and we've seen this happen time and time again as shown below: 








Oda's *exact * words are "*turns his fist in to huge flame*". He *did not* pick answer (2) in that SBS and say "his fist produces/creates flame that he then fires/shoots out". *Stop arguing against established facts from the author already.*



tanman said:


> Now you're saying that Akainu's long range magma fists are also a a part of his body. So you're saying that if someone struck one of those magmafists with a sword coated in high level Haki, Akainu would be hurt by that? Does that make any sense to you?
> 
> Akainu being hurt because he shot some magma a kilometer away from his actual body. Yet for whatever reason, he's unaffected by his fist disappearing instantaneously.


I never said magma that isn?t a part of Akainu?s body anymore can still damage him. I?m saying that about attacks that are an extension of his body and still connected to him like Dai Funka as . He turns his fist to lava, makes it bigger/expands it, extends it outward, and the attack remains as a part of his body the entire time until the it?s over. 

Just like Hiken where it destroyed all of those ships and remained connected to the point of origin (his body) the whole way through  (it's originally from the body, it?s not some kind of fireball or Haduken attack that immediately starts separately from the body). 

Same thing with Crocodile when he turns hand into a sandblade, extends the entire blade outwards, and reforms his hand back to normal at the bottom of  (it?s not like a completely seperate projectile slash like Zoro's pound-hou's). 

And why would he would be affected by his fist disappearing instantly under normal circumstances? He?s a Logia, he?s able to naturally reform himself after an attack just like Crocodile did at the bottom of that last page linked.

*Continued next post*


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 24, 2014)

tanman said:


> G3 is a stretching ability from Gomu Gomu no mi. It has nothing to do with how logias work.


The way G3 works (despite not being a Logia) is similar to the mechanics of attacks such as Hiken and Dai Funka. 



tanman said:


> That would mean hitting any part of Ice Age should hurt him. Which obviously isn't the case.


Good thing you conceded about Aokiji being a Cold man as that notion didn't even make a remote amount of sense. Like I said earlier, he's an *Ice* man which means when someone hits him, he breaks into *Ice* not into Cold....

And no, that’s not what it would mean because water/things frozen by Ice Age aren’t an extended part of his body…

Definition of extend: _cause to cover a larger area; make longer or wider. synonyms:	expand, enlarge, increase, make larger, make bigger, widen, broaden_.

When I say extended, I’m talking about attacks like Dai Funka, Hiken and in Aokiji's case Ice Block: Pheasant Peck where he turns his arm into ice and expands/enlarges it outwards in the shape of bird (while still being connected to his body).  



tanman said:


> Of course, you can hurt Aokiji by hitting his ice bird. What? Hitting any extended ice can hurt Aokiji? Are you proposing that Aokiji coated an island wide area in Haki and took damage when ever someone broke the ice? This is getting increasingly ridiculous.


As long as Pheasant Peck remains a part of his body, then he’s just as vulnerable to an attack as Smoker was in that scan earlier.

And to that last part, no…that’s not what I’m suggesting at all. I never said that Aokiji could feel  ice that isn't a part of his body anymore…. 



tanman said:


> That scan is of Luffy grabbing Smoker's arm. Are you providing unrelated scans so that it looks like your argument has evidence?
> 
> That's Smoker's arm not massive blast of smoke that she created. Of course, hurting it would hurt Smoker. That's the real body. You don't seem to understand the difference.


If Smoker’s extended smoke arm (which is connected to his body) was able to be touched, then someone should also be able to touch Akainu’s magma arm (which is also connected to his body) in . _That’s the point I've been making this whole time._



tanman said:


> Oh, I see you misunderstand me.
> Haki would be used to amplify Fuji's gravity not his meteors.


Using Haki to 'amplify" his gravity (if he even does that) doesn't mean that he automatically en-coats the meteor's with his Haki. At best, that could mean the gravitational pull becomes stronger and the meteor drops down faster as a result.  



tanman said:


> I don't know what you're intention is for that example to represent.


I brought that scan up of Crocodile missing parts of his body (in direct response to when you said “disappeared” in that paragraph) because the notion of Logia’s having their body part disappear seemed foreign to you when you say things like....


tanman said:


> The quote by no means suggests that Ace's long range fire, which can disappear in an instant, is as much a part of Ace as Luffy's arms.





tanman said:


> You're also suggesting that magma fists that disappeared instantaneously upon contact with ice were entirely a part of Akainu's body?


…and it' shouldn't be, especially since we see Logia user's body parts disappear and reform all the time in the manga (just like in that Crocodile scan).



tanman said:


> Logias have never had to reform their bodies after their attacks were neutralized.


 -His fist, that's still attached to his body, splatters against Marco.
 -His extended fist, that's still attached to his body, dissipates into the iceberg.  

Yet Akainu is still shown with an arm intact afterwards in both of those cases. Why? _Because he's a Logia and Logia's are capable of reforming their body parts. _



tanman said:


> Logias have never been shown to have multiple parts of their body in separate places while retaining independent autonomy and receptiveness to pain.


When did I ever say this.....



tanman said:


> The reason I don't "fully understand" probably has something to do with you defining an arbitrary set of rules that works counter to everything we've been shown about logias.


What did I state that was arbitrary...



tanman said:


> I also find it, _hilarious_, how you managed to cut Coru's post into a shape in which it looked like he agreed with your perception of logias despite him specifically emphasizing that all of these attacks must separate from the logia body at some point. Good work.


First of all, I never said that Logia attacks couldn't separate from the original body. If you don’t believe me, then provide a quote of me denying that notion or of me saying anything along the lines of “its impossible for Logia attacks to separate from their bodies”. 

Second, I didn’t cut out anything to make it seem that he was agreeing with everything I was saying, though he did mention similar things to what I said…. 


Kings Disposition said:


> Hiken is when he turns his fist (a part of his body) into flame and expands it to a gigantic size. It's not to be thought of fully as a projectile (even though it looks like one) that shoots out, *but more akin to a huge fist* (similar to Gear Third and Dai Funka) that's acts as an extension of his body.





Coruscation said:


> Hiken on the other hand is literally his *fist enlargened*.


…I specially said to him that “I agree with most of this and it's basically what I've been trying to tell Tanman in *regards to the reforming + expanding* notion that I mentioned about Logia's”… as in I agree with the parts of his post where he talked about Logia’s expanding and growing their body back and even said similar things…..  


Kings Disposition said:


> Hiken is when he turns his fist (a part of his *body*) into flame and *expands* it to a *gigantic size*





Coruscation said:


> They can *expand* their own *bodies* to *massive size* if they so please (see Enel) and throw around parts of their bodies as separate projectiles. And if they get hit when their body is *expanded* they do take damage, again see Enel vs. Luffy


...and....


Kings Disposition said:


> Akainu turn's his fist to magma, expands it to a huge size, launches/extends said magma fist, completely neutralizes the ice, and *reforms his natural body* just like every other Logia can.





Coruscation said:


> But the end result is basically the same because they have the ability to effectively separate their body parts freely and immediately *grow "new"* ones.


…earlier. 


tanman said:


> I do appreciate you however at least admitting that Ace's lances aren't a part of his body. Now if we can just extend that to effectively all of the attacks that these logia characters do that aren't in CQC and aren't specifically treated otherwise that would be great.


No….*we definitely can’t* extend that notion to all Logia attack because not every logia attack is exactly the same. 

Flame Spears - Ace turns his hands into fire, expands it in the form of lances, and *throws* it (separate from the body).
Hiken - Ace turns his fist into fire, expands it to large size, and *extends* it ouwards (still connected to the body).

Since Hiken is an extension of the body (that _looks_ like projectile as Oda puts it), he’s still prone to taking damage (as well anyone else whose attack works in a similar fashion) and that’s what I’ve been saying the entire time.


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 24, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> There is a part in the Ace vs. Blackbeard fight where Blackbeard is all "Zehahaha I have a Logia!" and Ace basically replies "...so?". Kinda think that does imply he has Haki. You might say it runs in contrast to his interaction with Smoker but later events take precedence over previous ones and chances are good he was just messing with the man anyway.



Yeah, I agree. It's hard to tell when Oda actually came up with the concept of haki (or at least, had something of the sort in mind) and started easing it into the story... although, admittedly, when I first saw that, I thought it meant something more like "..so? I have a logia too."


----------



## Dunno (Feb 24, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> There is a part in the Ace vs. Blackbeard fight where Blackbeard is all "Zehahaha I have a Logia!" and Ace basically replies "...so?". Kinda think that does imply he has Haki. You might say it runs in contrast to his interaction with Smoker but *later events take precedence over previous ones* and chances are good he was just messing with the man anyway.



Does this apply to Crocodile too, or does it only apply when it's convenient?


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 24, 2014)

I find it hard for a writer as good as Oda to come up with an ability such as logia and does not think of the  necessary means to fight against it (Haki).

Maybe he did not make a clear picture of what Haki is, but a general picture was established in his head for sure.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 24, 2014)

Halcyon said:


> They're the strongest members of WB's crew. That's my point. *There are tons of other commanders who didn't demonstrate haki as well because they were weak comparatively.* Just like Ace was weak when compared to those top commanders you keep raving on about.


That's some flawed thinking there. The other Commander's didn't demonstrate Haki simply because they weren't given a chance to, not because they were "weaker"....



Halcyon said:


> I didn't say you hinted at anything, though I assumed that was where you were going with it, unless you wanted to make a completely unbalanced argument. Yes, Luffy learned CoA in a year and a half under the tutelage of the PK's first mate.
> 
> Ace, on the other hand, was only in WB's crew for about a year and a half and spent the majority of it chasing after BB in Paradise.


What's the point of saying this....are you implying that Ace needs a teacher and/or the same amount of time as Luffy to learn Haki?

And do you have proof about that last part in regards to the number of years? (Not saying you're incorrect but I'm wondering where you're getting all these numbers about Ace from).



Halcyon said:


> The differences being
> 1. Drake actually has feats using CoA
> 2. Drake spent more time in the NW than we know Ace did
> Though this is a better example than the other ones you presented.


@ 2) Not everyone learns Haki at the same rate so saying this is irrelevant. 



Halcyon said:


> That was said after an event where an inexperienced logia who thought he couldn't be touched was demolished easily. Do you consider Ace an inexperienced logia?
> 
> The manga didn't state that they can't survive, either... it said that logias who believe they're invincible by virtue of their fruit won't survive.


And what does all that translate to? Oh, I know..that Ace has Haki because he's a new world veteran that doesn't fall under the "Logia's that don't have Haki and think that they're invincible won't make it in the New World" category....which is exactly what I said earlier.



Halcyon said:


> It wasn't countering anything; they nullified each other. Smoker should have been fodder to the "New World Veteran" but instead he settled for just clashing when he could have done more? Please explain how this works.


Ace's fire was definitely implied to have an advantage over smoke, just like Akainu's lava had an advantage over fire. Why else would Oda depict Ace in a superior light there and have him say "you may be smoke *but I'm fire...you're powers don't stand a chance against mine.*" In addition, his only objective was securing his brother's escape....which exactly what he did. 



Halcyon said:


> That doesn't render anything moot.
> I also agree that Ace most likely had haki as well, I was simply stating your examples were bad.


And what's you're reasoning for why Ace has Haki? (To repeat Luffee's question to you earlier).



Halcyon said:


> This imaginary correlation business is ridiculous. Want to know why everyone who has CoC has CoA? Because this is the NW, where CoA is completely commonplace. In Paradise, it's not, which is where Ace was for the majority of his time.


Huh? You say that they have Haki because it's commonplace in NW, not in Paradise. Then after admitting that Ace has Haki...you turn around and say that he spent most of his time Paradise implying that he doesn't have it...what's the point you're making here? 

And Hancock has CoC and resides in Paradise so that already throw's what you're saying out the window.



Halcyon said:


> Are these supposed to be proving something?


The point of that comparison was to show just how great Ace's potential is in regards to learning Haki. CoC grows equally with the the user and Luffy finally showed it by the end of Paradise after all that experience, while Ace showed it without any pirate experience whatsoever.



Halcyon said:


> Why do you have this thought that CoC has a correlation with other types of haki, when it's explicitly stated to be completely different? I don't understand this logic at all; everyone has potential for CoA and CoO. CoC works differently. There is no 'potential' for CoA tied to CoC, nor has it ever been hinted at.


Fact of the matter is that *every* other CoC user that we've seen has shown CoA once given the opportunity. Same thing with all of the other WB commanders we've seen in action. Ace falls under *both categories*, which is part of the reason for why he deserves the benefit of doubt in regards to having Haki.



Slenderman said:


> Bro come on. I'm not a hypocrite. Mihawk trained Zoro. Nobody else did. Hence Mihawk is hinted to have haki. What hints does Ace have? He was a WB commander. Not all have shown haki. Training someone is a better hint than rank and blood line. In most cases.


You say Mihawk taught Zoro Haki. Was that ever shown in the manga? Did Mihawk ever say "come now young frog, let me teach you the way of Haki and not the Way of the Sword"?

(How we do know that Zoro didn't learn Haki on his own? Sanji spent 2 full years running and it wasn't shown that he had a direct teacher, yet he still knows Haki....)

You say give Mihawk the benefit of the doubt about him having Haki (when he hasn't shown it even once) because you assume that he taught it Zoro (which was also never shown) ...but when assumptions/hints were made earlier for Ace, you said...



Slenderman said:


> We can only go by things we have seen not what we want to see.



and imply that we shouldn't give Ace the benefit of doubt in regards to having Haki. That's what makes you a hypocrite.


----------



## Veltpunch (Feb 24, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> There is a part in the Ace vs. Blackbeard fight where Blackbeard is all "Zehahaha I have a Logia!" and Ace basically replies "...so?". Kinda think that does imply he has Haki. You might say it runs in contrast to his interaction with Smoker but later events take precedence over previous ones and chances are good he was just messing with the man anyway.


There's also the part where he uses his firefly attack I think. Right after Blackbeard said that he was a Logia. Ace said something like "if you were a Logia type then you should have been able to dodge (or phase through) *an attack like that.*" This implies that he might have not imbued that attack in particular with AH. He couldn't have been talking about much else there since all of his attacks are fire based.


----------



## tanman (Feb 24, 2014)

Woah. Massive backtracking on your logia comments. The gist of your entire counterargument from my perspective (since you're telling me to quote you on things I thought were implied) is that: *You're basically suggesting that there are two different real bodies with different constraints. The attached one that enemies can touch and harm. And the unattached one that enemies can't use to harm the logia but are still somehow actively a part of the user's body. *This makes very little sense and muddles a very simple concept.


And now the attacking body part is somehow harder to cut than every other part of the users body (the speed that it's moving is the only legitimate argument I can see there). This makes no sense and is entirely arbitrary. Your moving the goal posts for your argument and my own.

I will respond in full later.


----------



## HaxHax (Feb 24, 2014)

What are you even arguing about? Ace isn't fighting a logia. Besides, we've seen Haki used in several different types of ranged attacks.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 24, 2014)

> Does this apply to Crocodile too, or does it only apply when it's convenient?



No, this isn't about convenience. It's about making the overall most sense out of a given situation. Potential retcons or earlier awkwardness due to the way a series progresses over time are just one part of that to consider. It is relevant in this case because we're discussing something which was never concretely addressed in the story and it's uncertain at which points it was thought up and concretized at all. It's not relevant at all in the Crocodile case because we have a wealth of hard evidence to draw on which more than adequately tells us how to interpret his war "feats" in the most logical way.


----------



## tanman (Feb 24, 2014)

*@ Coruscation*

While Ace and Blackbeard's dialogue can certainly be taken that way and I do ultimately think that Ace has CoA (it's quality, however, is indeterminate), the counterargument is that there are many ways to hurt, fight, and defeat a logia without CoA.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 24, 2014)

tanman said:


> Woah. Massive backtracking on your logia comments. The gist of your entire counterargument from my perspective (since you're telling me to quote you on things I thought were implied) is that: *You're basically suggesting that there are two different real bodies with different constraints. The attached one that enemies can touch and harm. And the unattached one that enemies can't use to harm the logia but are still somehow actively a part of the user's body.*This makes very little sense and muddles a very simple concept.


That's not a quote....



tanman said:


> *And now the attacking body part is somehow harder to cut than every other part of the users body (the speed that it's moving is the only legitimate argument I can see there).* This makes no sense and is entirely arbitrary. Your moving the goal posts for your argument and my own.


What? Where are you getting all of this from???



tanman said:


> While Ace and Blackbeard's dialogue can certainly be taken that way and I do ultimately think that Ace has CoA (*it's quality, however, is indeterminate*), the counterargument is that there are many ways to hurt, fight, and defeat a logia without CoA.


This is so bizarre....you repeatedly ask me to show you evidence of Ace having Haki yet you believed that he actually has it.....

And the bolded is exactly why you can't say that Law "easily avoids" all of Ace's attacks.


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 24, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> That's some flawed thinking there. The other Commander's didn't demonstrate Haki simply because they weren't given a chance to, not because they were "weaker"....


The commanders we have feats for were definitely the strongest of the bunch, there's not a doubt in anyone's mind about that. They were the ones fighting the admirals. If all of the other commanders had haki, why didn't they assist in attacking the admirals with the others?




> What's the point of saying this....are you implying that Ace needs a teacher and/or the same amount of time as Luffy to learn Haki?


Are you saying he doesn't? How about some proof, other than this crazy correlation nonsense.




> And do you have proof about that last part in regards to the number of years? (Not saying you're incorrect but I'm wondering where you're getting all these numbers about Ace from).


It was stated, I don't exactly know in which chapters, but it's on the wiki with references I'm sure.



> @ 2) Not everyone learns Haki at the same rate so saying this is irrelevant.


I understand this. I also understand Luffy learned extremely fast. If you want to provide proof that Ace had a better rate of learning then be my guest.





> And what does all that translate to? Oh, I know..that Ace has Haki because he's a new world veteran that doesn't fall under the "Logia's that don't have Haki and think that they're invincible won't make it in the New World" category....which is exactly what I said earlier.


You can understand you're not invincible as a logia and not have haki; fact of the matter is, most logias do think they're invincible until they leave Paradise.





> Ace's fire was definitely implied to have an advantage over smoke, just like Akainu's lava had an advantage over fire. Why else would Oda depict Ace in a superior light there and have him say "you may be smoke *but I'm fire...you're powers don't stand a chance against mine.*" In addition, his only objective was securing his brother's escape....which exactly what he did.


This is all based on a statement made by Ace himself. OP characters are pretty full of themselves. Smoke and fire nullify each other, Ace didn't overpower Smoker with his fruit alone.





> And what's you're reasoning for why Ace has Haki? (To repeat Luffee's question to you earlier).


My reasoning is that he should still be above current Luffy, and if he didn't have it then the M3 would have far surpassed him by now. It's merely from a narrative stand point, there aren't a whole lot of things that point towards him having it as far as the actual manga goes.





> Huh? You say that they have Haki because it's commonplace in NW, not in Paradise. Then after admitting that Ace has Haki...you turn around and say that he spent most of his time Paradise implying that he doesn't have it...what's the point you're making here?


I didn't admit anything; I said I believe Ace had it before he died. My argument was against your examples, not against your stance on the matter. I've stated this repeatedly, yet you drug it out into a full on back and forth.





> And Hancock has CoC and resides in Paradise so that already throw's what you're saying out the window.


One person residing at the end of paradise who has CoC nullifies it as not being commonplace? 
lolk.




> The point of that comparison was to show just how great Ace's potential is in regards to learning Haki. CoC grows equally with the the user and Luffy finally showed it by the end of Paradise after all that experience, while Ace showed it without any pirate experience whatsoever.


Yes, but you've missed the boat entirely in doing so. There has never been any talk of "potential' to learn haki, you're just making it up as you go.





> Fact of the matter is that *every* other CoC user that we've seen has shown CoA once given the opportunity. Same thing with all of the other WB commanders we've seen in action. Ace falls under *both categories*, which is part of the reason for why he deserves the benefit of doubt in regards to having Haki.


Ace showed CoC as a child and never used it again that we know of. Why does this automatically confirm that he has CoA? As I stated previously, Luffy showed CoC at MF and he didn't know CoA. Knowing CoA isn't tied to CoC in the least.

The WB commanders argument is unbelievable. You know perfectly well that Marco, Jozu, and Vista are the strongest commanders WB had, which is why they have these feats. They were the ones fighting admirals because they were the ones who could hit them. Unless you'd like to prove me wrong, I suggest dropping this argument entirely.

I'm not going to say anything further because frankly, I don't care about this subject.


----------



## Orca (Feb 24, 2014)

Halcyon said:
			
		

> The commanders we have feats for were definitely the strongest of the bunch, there's not a doubt in anyone's mind about that. They were the ones fighting the admirals. If all of the other commanders had haki, why didn't they assist in attacking the admirals with the others?



7 of WB's commanders got Luffy past Kizaru. They couldn't have done it without Haki.


----------



## monkey d ace (Feb 24, 2014)

Halcyon said:


> The commanders we have feats for were definitely the strongest of the bunch, there's not a doubt in anyone's mind about that. They were the ones fighting the admirals. If all of the other commanders had haki, why didn't they assist in attacking the admirals with the others?


dude, these are the admirals, even WB struggled to hit them, the only commanders who have good enough haki to bypass the admirals DFs are marco and jozu.


----------



## tanman (Feb 24, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> You literally ignored the "imbued Haki" part of my sentence when you responded to it by saying "I don't see what an object's nature as animate has to do with anything" without mentioning Haki anywhere in that entire sentence.




You're correct that I didn't respond in that "entire sentence." Instead, I used the rest of the paragraph to address that. Is it alright if I don't respond to everything you say in a single sentence? I wish I could. I think it would save us both a lot of heartache.




Kings Disposition said:


> Huh? I specifically said that "its heavily implied that Ace has Haki and all his attacks come from his body. Therefore, it's safe to assume that he can apply Haki into his attacks just like every other Haki user'
> ......and the first thing you first thing you said to that is "nope"?....Nope to what?



To the entire statement. It isn't heavily implied that Ace has Haki. All his attacks come from his body but that doesn't mean they are actively a part of his body. Therefore, it isn't safe to assume that he can apply Haki into his attacks.



Kings Disposition said:


> Are you saying that his attacks don't come from his body? Where does it come from then? Thin air? Magic?



At no point did I say his attacks didn't come from his body. Don't be silly. You know full well that my denial of your argument didn't suggest a denial to the specific wording you used in only that case.




Kings Disposition said:


> Are saying that Logia's can't imbue Haki into their attacks? Why can't they?



And this is totally out of left field.
You're asking questions that are obvious rather than asking the questions that are actually fundamental to your argument. If you wanted to assert your case you would be saying: Are you saying that a Haki using logia might not be able to put Haki on their projectile attacks?

I have been very specific in saying that Haki users can imbue Haki into projectiles (my point, however, being that it's not a default ability but a practiced one), but you've purposefully misconstrued a single word in my post to suggest I'm saying otherwise.



Kings Disposition said:


> What.
> 
> 
> 
> And I never said every single Logia attack makes the user touchable...only to the ones that are still connected to the body (like the above smoke attack, like Hiken, like Dai Funka, like Pheseant Beak, etc....basically all the attacks that I previously mentioned).



*Please stop posting links that have nothing to do with your argument or my argument as if they are evidence.*



> And yes, the extended ice (if it isn't protected with enough Haki) would make Aokiji's body vulnerable to attacks just like any other Logia (take a look at the scan below)





The problem is that your new "still connected to the body" rule, which failed to mention before, creates an entirely arbitrary and unsupported set of parameters for what is the users body. Considering the above scan, to suggest that the Pheasent made Aokiji vulnerable, despite him being completely unharmed by Ace's fire, is based on basically nothing.

There's no reason to think the user's physical body expanded. And there's no evidence to support it. The same is true for Hiken and Ace's other attacks.



Kings Disposition said:


> Kuja arrows fall under 2 because they're weapons are touching their bodies (and you know exactly what I'm talking about here, don't try saying crap like "well they aren't literally touching the arrows"...that's just asinine).



Yep. Just asinine to suggest a physical connection isn't necessary when Kuja's have done it. Zoro has added Haki to flying slashes (suggesting Haki can be carried through the air). Swordsman, snipers, (and logia) will likely continue to do this throughout the series. Certainly, you must have some explanation.



Kings Disposition said:


> Fujitora can't apply Haki to the meteors because they don't fall under either category (the meteors aren't touching him and they aren't coming from his body). And he can't transfer Haki into the meteor's via his gravity DF either....we've never even seen Haki applied like that at all. If that were possible, then Law would've been able to transfer his Haki (via his Room DF) into the ground and outright kill Smoker in .



As I said later, Haki can be added to his gravity, not necessarily to the meteors themselves. It would have a similar effect of making the meteors seemingly more difficult to stop. The scan would be relevant if Law's ability were telekinesis rather than Room  and Law intended to kill.




Kings Disposition said:


> Stop selectively reading what I'm saying then...I specifically said that "there's no evidence of Law manipulating Haki imbued *attacks* that are a part of an opponent’s main body".....Not once (in either of those fights) did Law manipulate an *attack* that directly came from Smoker's or Vergo's body."



And now the attacking body part is somehow harder to cut than every other part of the users body (the speed that it's moving is the only legitimate argument I can see there). This makes no sense and is entirely arbitrary. Your moving the goal posts for your argument and my own.



Kings Disposition said:


> What? Where are you getting all of this from???
> 
> .



That's where I'm getting all of this from.





Kings Disposition said:


> Law hasn’t shown to manipulate any of Smokers White Blows (), he didn't manipulate any of Vergo's long range Haki darts (), and he didn't manipulate Overheat (). The only *attack* that he manipulated was Fujitora's meteor and that *attack* didn't have Haki imbued to it (for reasons i stated earlier). So for you say that Law will "easily avoid" Ace's *attack* (imbued with Haki) by using Room is completely baseless.



Why would he manipulate Smoker's attacks when it would take a lot less focus for him to avoid such fast CQC Hakified blows?

How could he manipulate Vergo's darts when he was basically K.O.ed at that point and Vergo had his heart.

Again, why manipulate Overheat when it takes a lot less energy and focus to avoid it?

Moving goal posts again. Vergo rushed at Law, and he cut him in half. Smoker went for a seastone hit, and he ripped his heart out. These are attacks well. You can't just say that in these case he didn't do it, so he can't do it when all evidence says otherwise. 

However, intercepting these attacks required an immense amount of focus because these characters are highly experienced in utilizing their Haki. The same can't be said for Ace. That isn't completely baseless. That's based on the basic fact that we don't have a single Haki feat or even the suggestion of a Haki feat from Ace. Law can easily avoid Ace's attack a) because you still haven't demonstrated that Ace can imbue Hiken, a very large surface area, with Haki;  b) because you have no means to compare the quality of Ace's Haki or the speed of his Hiken to someone like Vergo or Smoker's CQC abilities.




Kings Disposition said:


> Ace has Haki......it's basically common knowledge at this point.  Stop denying it already.



You're being absurd.
*Just because we think Ace probably has Haki, that doesn't mean he has Haki. Public opinion is not empirical evidence to where you can state that something "is" or someone "has" unless you're trying to win a fucking popularity contest.

There is no evidence. And there is a believable alternative in the negative.
That's all that's necessary to argue against it. That's all that's necessary to "deny" it.*

Sorry for shouting. But I really needed to get that point across. 



Kings Disposition said:


> And you’re assuming that Ace’s Haki is vastly inferior to Law’s by saying things like 'he can easily avoid” Ace’s attacks.



And that assumption is perfectly natural when he has no Haki feats and there is not a significant enough implication of his Haki abilities. You're assumptions on the other hand are entirely to far of a reach. You must provide evidence if you want to suggest the affirmative in the case of the quality of Ace's Haki. I'm not obligated to provide evidence of the negative because the lack of evidence is evidence enough.


----------



## tanman (Feb 24, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> _They're one in the same when it comes to Hiken._
> 
> Expand literally means to make *bigger* or more *huge*. Logia's can turn into their element and make their bodies bigger + expand themselves in some shape or form. Projectile?s or not, that?s just how their fruits work and we've seen this happen time and time again as shown below:
> 
> ...



I know what the word expand means. Please do not condescend.

You're correct to say that many logias can expand. But to say that  long range attacks are simply an expansion is based on nothing. Also "exact words" isn't a phrase you want to use when referring to a translation.

(2) is obviously not correct. I'm not going against "established facts from the author."  Please. We've seen this. Ace's fist is turned into giant flame. As I've said before, and I feel like I'm going circles here, is that the giant flame is a projection created by Ace's fist but isn't a part of Ace's body. Therefore, you cannot hurt Ace by hitting him in that huge line of flames, and his Haki isn't automatically extended to the massive surface area created by that line of flames.





Kings Disposition said:


> I never said magma that isn?t a part of Akainu?s body anymore can still damage him.



Good to know. 
I thought you might be loosing it because that's what it sounded like.




Kings Disposition said:


> I?m saying that about attacks that are an extension of his body and still connected to him like Dai Funka as . He turns his fist to lava, makes it bigger/expands it, extends it outward, and the attack remains as a part of his body the entire time until the it?s over.



Agreed. Dai Funka is literally his fist expanding. But, of course, it takes an additional mastery of Haki to extend his CoA over that entire surface making it irrelevant to Ace's case.




Kings Disposition said:


> ame thing with Crocodile when he turns hand into a sandblade, extends the entire blade outwards, and reforms his hand back to normal at the bottom of  (it?s not like a completely seperate projectile slash like Zoro's pound-hou's).



Of course, you can't hit Crocodile by hitting him in the sand blade as it isn't a part of the "real body" that Robin discussed. Again, it would take further ability for Crocodile to apply Haki over the sand blades which aren't a part of his arm. So relevance remains quite questionable.



Kings Disposition said:


> And why would he would be affected by his fist disappearing instantly under normal circumstances? He?s a Logia, he?s able to naturally reform himself after an attack just like Crocodile did at the bottom of that last page linked.



It's not his attack disappearing. It's the reason for its disappearance and what's done to it after. When I thought you were extending your logic to separated attacks, this was a point felt it was necessary to make. It would suggest these logias were effectively in constant pain.



Kings Disposition said:


> The way G3 works (despite not being a Logia) is similar to the mechanics of attacks such as Hiken and Dai Funka.



I fundamentally disagree. Logias produce their element. Luffy simply stretches. I think that's where your confusion is coming from.



Kings Disposition said:


> Good thing you conceded about Aokiji being a Cold man as that notion didn't even make a remote amount of sense. Like I said earlier, he's an *Ice* man which means when someone hits him, he breaks into *Ice* not into Cold....



...Okay? Do you have a point to make? I stated that it was inaccurate. His devil fruit's nature was irrelevant to my argument. Do you not have the tact as debater to move on?




Kings Disposition said:


> And no, that?s not what it would mean because water/things frozen by Ice Age aren?t an extended part of his body?
> 
> Definition of extend: _cause to cover a larger area; make longer or wider. synonyms:	expand, enlarge, increase, make larger, make bigger, widen, broaden_.



This is neg worthy. You're really bringing pedantic to entirely new level. 

You made this new rule by which your logic abides and you're now pretending that it's crazy that I don't understand the reasoning that you've come up with on fly.

You're previous comments mentioned nothing of Haki not being automatically applied to separated parts of his body. So please stop pretending as if it did.


----------



## tanman (Feb 24, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> As long as Pheasant Peck remains a part of his body, then he’s just as vulnerable to an attack as Smoker was in that scan earlier.




Smoker's actual arm is completely incomparable to a huge special attack that Aokiji creates in the shape of a bird. No logia has ever been hurt using a massive special attack like that even when it very much would have made sense. Can you provide some case to the contrary?



Kings Disposition said:


> And to that last part, no…that’s not what I’m suggesting at all. I never said that Aokiji could feel  ice that isn't a part of his body anymore….



Again, you changed your rules. But at least what you're saying now is more moderate.



Kings Disposition said:


> If Smoker’s extended smoke arm (which is connected to his body) was able to be touched, then someone should also be able to touch Akainu’s magma arm (which is also connected to his body) in . _That’s the point I've been making this whole time._



Great. But I established earlier that Dai Funka is simply an expansion of Akainu's arm. And Hiken is Ace's fist becoming a huge line of flame (much more similar to the sand blades if anything, it's a transformation not an extension).




Kings Disposition said:


> Using Haki to 'amplify" his gravity (if he even does that) doesn't mean that he automatically en-coats the meteor's with his Haki. At best, that could mean the gravitational pull becomes stronger and the meteor drops down faster as a result.



You are correct. I don't think I said that otherwise. 
It would, in effect, be harder for the meteor to resist gravity making it a more powerful impact upon Fujitora's opponent.



Kings Disposition said:


> I brought that scan up of Crocodile missing parts of his body (in direct response to when you said “disappeared” in that paragraph) because the notion of Logia’s having their body part disappear seemed foreign to you when you say things like....



Oh, so it was just you being pedantic again.




Kings Disposition said:


> …and it' shouldn't be, especially since we see Logia user's body parts disappear and reform all the time in the manga (just like in that Crocodile scan).



You'll notice that the case of Akainu and Smoker is totally different from the case of Crocodile and Ace. Akainu and Smoker's body parts contracted. Crocodile and Ace's body parts disappeared. The example you presented of Crocodile reforming is further indicative of this He reforms rather than "disappearing." Much like Akainu against Marco.

This is again demonstrative of the fundamental difference that I was showing with the word disappear, as foreign and misunderstood as it might have seemed to you.





Kings Disposition said:


> Yet Akainu is still shown with an arm intact afterwards in both of those cases. Why? _Because he's a Logia and Logia's are capable of reforming their body parts. _



You are absolutely correct. 
Thanks for the lesson. 

The point I was obviously making it that their body parts don't disappear unless they teleport.




Kings Disposition said:


> What did I state that was arbitrary...



You're entire stance is based on the idea of "separation." This makes it impossible to accurately determine what is or is not part of the logia's body. The much more simple and factual endorsed concept is that the physical body and its expansions are a part of the "real body." Any of the element created beyond that is not.



Kings Disposition said:


> First of all, I never said that Logia attacks couldn't separate from the original body. If you don’t believe me, then provide a quote of me denying that notion or of me saying anything along the lines of “its impossible for Logia attacks to separate from their bodies”.



The entire first half of our argument was about this.
But you've certainly become more moderate in your stance.



Kings Disposition said:


> Second, I didn’t cut out anything to make it seem that he was agreeing with everything I was saying, though he did mention similar things to what I said….
> 
> …I specially said to him that “I agree with most of this and it's basically what I've been trying to tell Tanman in *regards to the reforming + expanding* notion that I mentioned about Logia's”… as in I agree with the parts of his post where he talked about Logia’s expanding and growing their body back and even said similar things…..
> ...and....
> …earlier.



Umm...okay. Well, this entire part of the discussion is based off of something that you are no longer suggesting so we can drop it.

The important part is the idea that most attacks separate at some point.




Kings Disposition said:


> No….*we definitely can’t* extend that notion to all Logia attack because not every logia attack is exactly the same.



Good thing I didn't say every logia attack.

I've made the single obvious parameter very clear:
1. It must be a physical expansion of the body to be considered a part of the body, rather than a production of the element.



Kings Disposition said:


> That's not a quote....



I wasn't quoting you. 
I was demonstrating your change of opinion.
I don't need to find a quote when anyone who reads the original argument would know what we were talking about.



Kings Disposition said:


> This is so bizarre....you repeatedly ask me to show you evidence of Ace having Haki yet you believed that he actually has it...../QUOTE]
> 
> Because, and hear me when I say this, *opinion is not fact*.
> 
> ...


----------



## Halcyon (Feb 24, 2014)

tanman said:


> Ace hasn't demonstrated the Haki or the speed for all of his attacks not be made subject to Law's room. Haki is not something that we can assume he has a high quality of. Haki is not something we can assume her proficient at utilizing over projectiles, large areas, and complex attacks. Therefore, he is at a severe disadvantage against Law.


I agree with this. Regardless of whether I believe Ace has haki or not, there is insufficient evidence for someone to rule that he has it, much less a proficient use of it, and therefore it shouldn't be assumed he has it in the battledome.


----------



## Slenderman (Feb 24, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> And what does all that translate to? Oh, I know..that Ace has Haki because he's a new world veteran that doesn't fall under the "Logia's that don't have Haki and think that they're invincible won't make it in the New World" category....which is exactly what I said earlier.
> 
> 
> Ace's fire was definitely implied to have an advantage over smoke, just like Akainu's lava had an advantage over fire. Why else would Oda depict Ace in a superior light there and have him say "you may be smoke *but I'm fire...you're powers don't stand a chance against mine.*" In addition, his only objective was securing his brother's escape....which exactly what he did.
> ...



Mihawk trained Zoro and only Zoro. Rayleigh said that he's teaching luffy how to use haki but taught Luffy how to use his df better. What's your point? Haki makes a better kenshi with sword slashes that would be stronger. 

We don't know about Sanji so everything we say is speculation while MIhawk having haki is an inference which is different than speculation.  

If I said Croc had haki because he was in the NW that's being a hypocrite. I said that MIhawk has it and stated a legit inference that Ace doesn't have. He most likely has haki but has nothing to give hints towards it. There's no point of going in circles and arguing semantics. Right now Ace having haki is *likely but not manga fact*. No matter what you say that's the bottom line. And you need to acknowledge this.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 26, 2014)

tanman said:


> All his attacks come from his body but *that doesn't mean they are actively a part of his body.*


Yes it does. Just like Oda states in that SBS....Ace turns his fist, a part of his body, into flame (just like how every Logia turns into their element). He makes said fist/flame gigantic by expanding (making it huge, "raising its firepower") it via being a Logia. Then, he extends (increases in length) the huge fist/flame (which remains connected to him the whole way through) outward as if it was an extension of his body. (I'm a broken record here)

And Smoker (also a Logia) expanding himself to increase the surface area (as Vergo puts it) of his body supports this.



tanman said:


> Please stop posting links that have nothing to do with your argument or my argument as if they are evidence.


That Smoker/Tashigi scan does have to with my argument as shown....



Kings Disposition said:


> If Smoker’s extended smoke arm (which is connected to his body) was able to be touched, then someone should also be able to touch Akainu’s magma arm (which is also connected to his body) in . That’s the point I've been making this whole time.



....with that quote there.



tanman said:


> *The problem is that your new "still connected to the body" rule, which failed to mention before,* creates an entirely arbitrary and unsupported set of parameters for what is the users body. Considering the above scan, to suggest that the Pheasent made Aokiji vulnerable, despite him being completely unharmed by Ace's fire, is based on basically nothing.
> 
> There's no reason to think the user's physical body expanded. And there's no evidence to support it. The same is true for Hiken and Ace's other attacks.


So just because _you_ assumed that all Logia long-ranged attacks play out exactly the same way (judging by your "extend the notion of Flame Spears to all Logia attacks" comment) and/or failed to realize that all the attacks I've been talking about remain attached to Logia's bodies (which is completely obvious and doesn't need any clarification whatsoever since you can clearly see attacks like Hiken/Dai Funka remaining connected to the body the whole way through).....somehow means that I made up "new rules"? 

Now in regards to that scan, I specifically said Aokiji would be "vulnerable to attacks if he isn't *protected* with Haki". Since his target was a Logia (Ace), he obviously applied Haki (which would naturally protect himself from harm) into the attack. 

And there's no need to make arbitrary parameters....expanded parts of the body are touchable as long as they remain connected to the point of origin. This is supported by that Smoker/Tashigi scan + Vergo's explanation about Logia's being able to increase their surface area (i.e. expand their body), which in turn, increases where they're able to be touched. 



tanman said:


> Yep. Just asinine to suggest a physical connection isn't necessary when Kuja's have done it. Zoro has added Haki to flying slashes (suggesting Haki can be carried through the air). Swordsman, snipers, (and logia) will likely continue to do this throughout the series. Certainly, you must have some explanation.


Please provide a quote where I said anything along the lines of "a physical connection isn't necessary" to imbue Haki into arrows. I was literally saying the exact opposite (read my #2 explanation where I said Kuja arrows fall under).



tanman said:


> As I said later, Haki can be added to his gravity, not necessarily to the meteors themselves. It would have a similar effect of making the meteors seemingly more difficult to stop. The scan would be relevant if Law's ability were telekinesis rather than Room  and Law intended to kill.


How will adding Haki into gravity make the meteor harder to stop? It's still just a regular meteor with no Haki imbued into it which makes the attack easy pickings for Law's DF.

And earlier you specifically stated that Fujitora added Haki into the meteors so it sounds like you're contradicting yourself here.



tanman said:


> Why would he manipulate Smoker's attacks when it would take a lot less focus for him to avoid such fast CQC Hakified blows?
> 
> How could he manipulate Vergo's darts when he was basically K.O.ed at that point and Vergo had his heart.
> 
> Again, why manipulate Overheat when it takes a lot less energy and focus to avoid it?


The risk of being in CQC range_ far_ outweighs the risk of manipulating Smoker's long range attacks from the distance. (And how constantly dodging Haki attacks require's less focus then simply manipulating the attacks is beyond me).

Same thing with Overheat, why take a risk of the attack making contact with him if he could've just manipulated it safely from the distance?



tanman said:


> You're correct to say that many logias can expand. *But to say that  long range attacks are simply an expansion is based on nothing*.


Huh? How can you say this when you yourself agree that Dai Funka, a long range Logia attack, expands here:



tanman said:


> Agreed. Dai Funka is literally his fist expanding.



....it honestly sounds like you're contradicting yourself there.



tanman said:


> (2) is obviously not correct. I'm not going against "established facts from the author."  Please. We've seen this. Ace's fist is turned into giant flame. As I've said before, and I feel like I'm going circles here, *is that the giant flame is a projection created by Ace's fist but isn't a part of Ace's body*. Therefore, you cannot hurt Ace by hitting him in that huge line of flames, and his Haki isn't automatically extended to the massive surface area created by that line of flames.


*Yes it is.* The flame isn't created/produced and shot out as a projection.... *his fist is the flame* (in an expanded form just like Dai Funka). Again, Oda's answer to that question was *"(1)Turn his body into flame"* not "(2)Shoot flame from his body". And the fist/flame remains connected to the point of origin (his body) throughout the entire attack until it's over.

So until you provide a scan of Ace using a Hiken that starts off *not* as a part of his fist (like some sort of Haduken projectile that's immediately shot away), you can't say that the attack isn't a part of his body. 



tanman said:


> Good to know.
> I thought you might be loosing it because that's what it sounded like.


You still haven't provided any scans for why you assumed this. 



tanman said:


> Agreed. Dai Funka is literally his fist expanding. But, of course, it takes an additional mastery of Haki to extend his CoA over that entire surface making it irrelevant to Ace's case.


Glad to see that you're finally agreeing with what I've been saying this whole time. And the same thing is happening with Hiken (only difference being that it isn't in the shape of an actual fist) as well.



tanman said:


> Of course, you can't hit Crocodile by hitting him in the sand blade as it isn't a part of the "real body" that Robin discussed. Again, it would take further ability for Crocodile to apply Haki over the sand blades which aren't a part of his arm. So relevance remains quite questionable.


But the sandblade is a part of the body, you can clearly see that it remains connected to him the whole way through as shown in that scan. 

And if he was fighting a Haki user and used Desert Spada to expand (increase the surface area of) his arm outward in the form of a long blade, that Haki user should be able to damage Croc by hitting the blade that's still connected to him. (Refer to Smoker/Tashigi scan and when Vergo talks about Logia's being bigger targets when they expand/increase the surface area of their bodies).



tanman said:


> I fundamentally disagree. Logias *produce* their element. Luffy simply stretches. I think that's where your confusion is coming from.


This is where you're wrong. _Logia's turn their body into their respective element_, they don't produce it. And after they've become their element, they expand/shape themselves as they see fit.

And again I specifically brought up G3 (not Luffy's stretching in general) to say that his fist enlargening is similar to the way Logia's enlargen their body parts. I'm not saying that stretching makes him a Logia.



tanman said:


> ...Okay? Do you have a point to make? I stated that it was inaccurate. His devil fruit's nature was irrelevant to my argument. Do you not have the tact as debater to move on?


My apologies but wanted to state my piece on the matter, that's all.



tanman said:


> This is neg worthy. You're really bringing pedantic to entirely new level.
> 
> You made this new rule by which your logic abides and you're now pretending that it's crazy that I don't understand the reasoning that you've come up with on fly.
> 
> You're previous comments mentioned nothing of Haki not being automatically applied to separated parts of his body. So please stop pretending as if it did.


You said "That would mean hitting any part of Ice Age should hurt him. Which obviously isn't the case."

Then I replied "And no, that’s not what it would mean because water/things frozen by Ice Age aren’t an extended part of his body… " 

I wasn't trying to disagree with you (though that's probably what it looked like when I said "no" and for that I apologize). I was pointing out that the notion where Logia's can get hurt by extending their bodies does not apply to the Ice Age attack. If someone were to damage (with Haki) the sea king that he froze with it for example, the damage shouldn't effect/hurt Aokiji because the sea king was never a part of his own body.  



tanman said:


> Smokers actual arm is completely incomparable to a huge special attack that Aokiji creates in the shape of a bird. No logia has ever been hurt using a massive special attack like that even when it very much would have made sense. Can you provide some case to the contrary?


Smoker/Tashigi extending his arm out as smoke (his Logia ability) is a special attack that's connected to his/her body, which means that it could be touched (which is exactly what Luffy did). Aokiji points his arm at the opponent, turns his arm into ice (his Logia ability), extends it outward in (just in the form of a huge bird), and the ice also remains connected to the body which means that it can be touched as well. 



tanman said:


> Again, you changed your rules. But at least what you're saying now is more moderate.


Care to elaborate on this with some quotes?


----------



## Kings Disposition (Feb 26, 2014)

tanman said:


> Great. But I established earlier that Dai Funka is simply an expansion of Akainu's arm. And Hiken is Ace's fist becoming a huge line of flame (much more similar to the sand blades if anything, it's a transformation not an extension).


Yes this is what I've been saying (good to see that you're no longer using the word the "shoot"). 

And it is an extension (it's basically the same thing as what Akainu is doing with Dai Funka, just replace magma with fire), the word means to make longer/wider and is synonymous with expand, enlarge, increase and that's exactly whats happening with Hiken where he's expanding his fist made of flame.



tanman said:


> You are correct. *I don't think I said that otherwise*.
> It would, in effect, be harder for the meteor to resist gravity making it a more powerful impact upon Fujitora's opponent.


You did say otherwise when you specifically stated that he imbue's Haki into meteors (not gravity) as shown here:


tanman said:


> Fujitora can very likely put Haki in his meteors just like Akainu can put Haki in his projectile magma fists.



...and that last part about "more powerful impact" seems very plausible.



tanman said:


> You'll notice that the case of Akainu and Smoker is totally different from the case of Crocodile and Ace. Akainu and Smoker's body parts contracted. Crocodile and Ace's body parts disappeared. *The example you presented of Crocodile reforming is further indicative of this He reforms rather than "disappearing." Much like Akainu against Marco.*


You're basically repeating what I already said here...


Kings Disposition said:


> His fist, that's still attached to his body, splatters against Marco.
> 
> Yet Akainu is still shown with an arm intact afterwards in both of those cases. Why? Because he's a Logia and Logia's are capable of reforming their body parts.





Kings Disposition said:


> And you seem to be forgetting that Logia's can reform back to their natural state under normal circumstances, so it's really not all that strange that it disappears. (Take a look as : Crocodile's entire torso and head disappears yet he reforms back to normal on the very next page because y'know...that's what Logia's do).



...in regards to the disappearing and reforming parts.



tanman said:


> You're entire stance is based on the idea of "separation."


No...literally since the beginning of our debate, I've been talking about Logia attacks that act as an extension of the body. The "idea of separation" was never even brought up by me (though it can still apply to what I've been saying).



tanman said:


> This makes it impossible to accurately determine what is or is not part of the logia's body. The much more simple and factual endorsed concept is that *the physical body and its expansions are a part of the "real body."* Any of the element created beyond that is not.


Yes the bolded is exactly what I've been saying. Earlier however, you said the following:


tanman said:


> There's no reason to think the user's physical body expanded. And there's no evidence to support it.





tanman said:


> The quote by no means suggests that Ace's long range fire, which can disappear in an instant, is as much a part of Ace as Luffy's arms.



...it honestly sounds like you're the one who's changing opinions.....

And like I said before, there's aren't any elements being "created". That's not how Logia attacks work (even though it looks like it).



tanman said:


> The entire first half of our argument was about this.


No...The first half of the argument consisted of me repeatedly describing attacks like Hiken/Dai Funka/Phseant: Peck as an extension of the body and you misinterpreting that as me saying "Logia's can't separate attacks from their body" and/or "Logia's can feel body parts that are no longer attached to them" for whatever reason. *If you disagree with this, then provide quotes stating otherwise.*



tanman said:


> Umm...okay. Well, this entire part of the discussion is based off of something that you are no longer suggesting so we can drop it.
> 
> The important part is the idea that most attacks separate at some point.


(Just so we're clear)

Since you included the bolded ("reforming + expanding") notions I mentioned in that paragraph you're quoting, I'll have to disagree with you stating "this entire part of the discussion is based off of something that you are no longer suggesting" because I'm most definitely still suggesting the bolded ('reforming + expanding') parts of what you quoted there...just as I've been suggesting them throughout this entire debate.

And in regards to the "separation" part of the quote above, it's more accurate to say "never suggested" (since I didn't in any of my points about Logia's extending themselves) rather than "no longer suggesting" (even though the separation notion, which I never denied or brought up, can still apply to what I've been saying). *If you disagree with this, then provide quotes stating otherwise*



tanman said:


> Good thing I didn't say every logia attack.



You basically did when you said:



tanman said:


> I do appreciate you however at least admitting that Ace's lances aren't a part of his body. Now if we can just *extend that to effectively all of the attacks* that these logia characters do that aren't in CQC and aren't specifically treated otherwise that would be great.



...and like I said before, we can't extend that notion to all Logia attacks because all Logia attacks aren't exactly the same.



tanman said:


> I've made the single obvious parameter very clear:
> *1. It must be a physical expansion of the body to be considered a part of the body*, rather than a production of the element.



There is no "production of the element" when it comes to Logia's. They literally turn into their element and expand/shape themselves as they see fit (to repeat myself earlier).

And I agree with the bolded part. That notion applies to attacks like Hiken since it remains connected to Ace the whole way through (as extension of his body) but not to attacks like Flame Spear (since it's immediately thrown as a projectile apart from his body).



tanman said:


> I was demonstrating your change of opinion.
> I don't need to find a quote when anyone who reads the original argument would know what we were talking about.



You accused me a few times of making “new rules” and now you say “I’m changing my opinion”. *If you cannot provide specific quotes of me doing either of those things, then drop this accusation right now as it's completely baseless*.

Now Tanman. I understand what you're saying about how we can't use feats that were never shown in the manga. But the thing is...._Ace is dead_. He's never going to be given another opportunity to show that he has Haki (despite all of his hints and the fact that most component fighters have it) as proof. And because of this notion, he's forever condemned to being vulnerable to hax 100% of the time (since not having Haki means he has no way of protecting himself) and automatically loses fights in the battledome against opponents that he shouldn't (since he can't even touch the people that even Luffy could beat such as Caeser...who's capable of harming Logia users as  and will be immune from Ace Haki-less attacks thus making him the winner by default)....all because he wasn't given the proper chance to show the necessary feats and that to me is extremely unfair. That's why I'm trying to go through such lengths here in saying that he has Haki. If it's practically universally agreed upon that he most likely has Haki, why can't we just outright say that he does since giving him an opportunity to prove it is literally impossible by this point?

If you choose to ignore the above then that's fine. I'll say the following in hopes of solidifying the notion that he has Haki and will use a scan that I feel is closest thing to Haki evidence for Ace:



Ace angrily strikes Akainu here in an attempt of harming him for mocking his father. If he doesn't have Haki, why would he attempt to strike him knowing full well that his attack will fail? Yes he's enraged but that doesn't suggest that he'd forget that he's up against not only a *Logia* user, but an Admiral to boot. *So the only logical thing to assume here is that Ace deliberately attacked Akainu with full intention of harming him. And the only way to accomplish that would be by applying Haki into his attack*.


----------

