# Who will Itachi find more challenging? Tobirama or Minato



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 25, 2014)

State of Mind: IC
Knowledge: Manga 
Distance: 20m 

All Healthy

*Restriction: *Edo Feats Includes:

Rikudou Mode / Bijuu Mode - Minato never had it in life, he needed to die to seal the bijuu inside his body.
Koto - Obvious why that is banned

My opinion:
Tobirama > or = Itachi > Minato


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

Probably Tobirama, due to the following  :

1 - Being more eager to use bunshins
2 - Being smarter and more tactical overall
3 - Having more experince fighting Uchiha


With that said, I believe both Itachi & Minato to be overall superior to Tobirama, despite the latter being portrayed to be a more intimidating dude than Minato.


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## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

I would also say Tobirama. 

Tobi's pros:

Knowledge of Uchiha
Smarter/ more tactical than Minato
Bunshin usage

Minato's pros:

a bit faster

Imo Itachi beats Minato high/extreme diff and with Tobi it can go either way extreme diff.


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## CatnipAvenger (Sep 25, 2014)

This is a good one. Susano'o would fare better against Minato where Tobirama's water would force Itachi to remain base.

I would say that Itachi should beat Tobirama, that version of the FTG shouldn't be a problem and Tobi is too slow otherwise.

Minato poses a serious challenge because Itachi hasn't been shown to hold his own against someone who rivals his speed+strategic mind. Although I believe Itachi will counter the FTG (probably by slashing near any FTG.kunai si Minato can't teleport in fear of getting hit.)


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## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

How does Minato challenge Itachi's strategic mind? Teen Bee saw through Minato. 

Minato is never gonna land any FTG kunai near Itachi.


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## CatnipAvenger (Sep 25, 2014)

I don't know why I keep assuming minato is a genius, I have a bad habit of that. I still think that Itachi's speed gives Tobirama a bit of trouble. To me, Minato has a decent chance to chakra exhaust Itachi.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 25, 2014)

Unless we are talking about Edo Minato - Tobirama would be more challenging simply because of his vast experience fighting Uchihas and detailed knowledge about them.


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## Rocky (Sep 25, 2014)

What are these beastly tactical feats of Tobirama's? 

To me, he's smart in the same way Orochimaru is...


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 25, 2014)

Tobirama should landslide this poll

Entire lifetime of knowledge fighting the uchiha
Smarter & more tactical
Bunshin Usage
Better Sensor
More chakra
Better Reactions

All Minato has over Tobirama is his slightly overall speed & ease at spreading prepped Kunai 

The knowledge and experience he has on the Uchiha should make this a no brainer...

Edo Minato > Edo Itachi > Tobirama > Minato > Itachi


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

He will lose to both eventually, but anyway...

Edo Minato>>>>>>>Base Minato>>>Edo Itachi> Tobirama>Itachi

The different between Minato with Kurama over base Minato is obvious, so there is no need to talk about that.
The different between base Minato and Tobirama is huge imo, it's the different betweem
1- Who can't deal with 20 fodders when he has back up, and who can destroy thousands by himself. 
2- who can't deal with Kin/Gin with another Kage, and who can deal with A/B by himself.
3- who can teleport several thousands of people, and who can teleport around 2-5.

imo the gap between them, is the different between #20 and #1000
the distance between those 2 numbers is the different between Minato and Tobirama's level.

As for itachi, he was portrayed to be around the Sannin level, slightly weaker, and the same for Tobirama imo as well.
As Oro surpassed him, and Jiraiya is superior to him as well imo.


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## Dominus (Sep 25, 2014)

Not sure why some people are saying "tactics and bunshin usage" for Tobirama. Minato can use clones as well and I don't remember Tobirama being much better when it comes to tactics, though he certainly is a better inventor and has more knowledge than Minato especially when it comes to the Uchiha because he fought them his whole life and also studied the Sharingan.



Complete_Ownage said:


> WTF did I just read...Mother of God *trolling* at it'sbest



The saddest thing about it is that he really thinks that way.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> As for itachi, he was portrayed to be around the *Sannin level, slightly weaker*, and the same for Tobirama imo as well.
> As Oro surpassed him, and Jiraiya is superior to him as well imo.



Next time you see Orochimaru, let him know this.


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol no. He is just trolling. Come on



although sometimes I don't know whether I'm trolling or not. 
but yeah, I do believe that Minato is more powerful than Tobirama with a good gab based
on their feats, hype, and portrayal. Honestly all there is to Tobirama that I see is people actually
giving him Minato's feats.


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Next time you see Orochimaru, let him know this.



You think Itachi can beat Oro with ET? 
and either way, Itachi used his full power to seal Oro, who was not even sealed really, as he was on Anko as well. 
It's more or less like itachi running away from Jiraiya after one jutsu. U_U


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## Dominus (Sep 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I believe the sad thing is actually Tobirama's fans denying the scans in front of them. The funny part, whenever it comes to Tobirama he's always just given Minato's feats and strategies for some God knows reason. lol
> 
> I.E; Minato used a Kunai and teleported above Obito to destroy him ----- Tobirama will just do the same thing.
> 
> ...



Except that you misinterpret pretty much every scan you post.


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Except that you misinterpret pretty much every scan you post.



Enlighten me.... 
what is the correct interpretation of those scans in your opinion, and based on what?


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## crisler (Sep 25, 2014)

I would say Tobirama.

The strength of Tobirama is
- More knowledge about MS
- Bunshin usage
- More chakra (probably than a namikaze)
- ET

Strength of Minato is,
- Faster 
- Rasengan

Now, here's the problem
- Tobirama is already fast enough for Itachi. Minatos' speed is not even needed to have the upper hand in this field, especially when itachi is not "just as fast" as the two. the gap between minato and tobiramas' speed is significant when fighting against "as fast" monsters like obito or raikage, not people like itachi
- you don't need rasengan against itachi. if he doesn't defend himself, then a kunai will kill him. if he has the appropriate defence ready, like susanoo, rasengan isn't enough.

Minato and Tobirama are both smart so I just assumed they were roughly the same, though i gave credit for tobiramas' MS knowledge.

The one thing I do think may be a major factor, is tobirama and minatos' mindset. To me it seems like minato is more cautious, and is more likely to thinki beyond all possibilities, whereas tobirama, perhaps due to experiencing so many things, seems to be  less likely to think beyond what he already knows and might make critical mistakes, such as underestimating itachis' tsukuyomi into believing it's just common ms genjutsu and that he can simply dispell + counter using hiraishin like he did against izuna in the anime. if tobirama chooses this tactic, he's dead, since itachis' tsukuyomi is uniquely powerful.

Overall, I think tobirama would be harder, but in itachis' wining scenarios tobirama might lose more drastically than minato. basically, even if tobirama wins more times than minato against itachi, his losses would be much more swift and one-sided than minatos' loss.


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

crisler said:


> I would say Tobirama.
> 
> The strength of Tobirama is
> - More knowledge about MS
> ...



Minato has clones as well. 
How do you know that Tobirama has more chakra, when Minato is a perfect SM user? 

ET needs sacrifices, and Tobirama's level at it is below Part 1 Oro's ET.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> You think Itachi can beat Oro with ET?
> and either way, Itachi used his full power to seal Oro, who was not even sealed really, as he was on Anko as well.
> It's more or less like itachi running away from Jiraiya after one jutsu. U_U



When did Orochimaru with ET become Sannin level? With ET he is above Sannin level. Unless you believe Jiraiya and Tsunade can beat Orochimaru with ET, do you? Since they don't even have any techniques to seal away ET bodies, whereas Itachi actually does with Totsuka and he can Izanami Orochimaru then proceed to dispel the ET. 

That's what you call being sealed though, he was on Anko, so what? Not like Orochimaru could have come out anytime he wanted, he was trapped. And let's not forget a teen Itachi made Orochimaru run away through Genjutsu from Akatsuki, made Orochimaru even admit that he is weaker than Itachi and longed to gain his eyes.

Yeah...sure. If anything this manga has shown, Itachi is the worst nightmare for any snake duo whether it be Kabuto or Orochimaru. They just can't get a upperhand on him no matter what.


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## crisler (Sep 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Minato has clones as well.
> How do you know that Tobirama has more chakra, when Minato is a perfect SM user?
> 
> ET needs sacrifices, and Tobirama's level at it is below Part 1 Oro's ET.



just generally assuming, since tobirama is a senju and minato is a namikaze. i'm not really sure if minato is a perfect sm user, as stated by himself.

i know minato has clones (every one does...) but he doesn't seem to use it often while tobirama does. and since itachis' style is ohko attacks and clone feints i assumed tobiramas' bunshin tactics would be  a better counter.


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## Dominus (Sep 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Enlighten me....
> what is the correct interpretation of those scans in your opinion, and based on what?



I must truly be bored.



Hussain said:


> 1- Minato
> 
> [sp]
> [/sp]
> ...





> imo the gap between them, is the different between #20 and #1000
> the distance between those 2 numbers is the different between Minato and Tobirama's level.



lolanime

When Minato got there, there were only  and Minato defeated them and like   that attacked Kakashi.

You think that all shinobi that are "fodder" are equal so by that logic beginning of Part II base Sasuke is numerous times stronger than Tobirama.



> 2- Minato
> [sp][/sp]
> 
> Tobirama
> ...



There is no reason to compare things we know nothing about (Tobirama vs. Kinkaku Force/Kinkaku and Ginkaku).



> 3- Minato
> He's even dubbed the invisible man because as Kabuto(the author) mentions, he has no chakra or presence, "yet they must have spotted him."
> 
> Tobirama
> ...



Minato did it with with Kurama's chakra.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

If we are here discussing whether or not Itachi can even beat Tobirama OR Minato, then I assume this is another Itachi wank troll thread. 

Anyways Itachi would lose to both rather quickly, but Tobirama would give him the quicker death because of his past experience dealing with Uchiha and Madara as such. 

Minato kills Itachi under 10 secs. Tobirama kills Itachi under 7 secs


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## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Minato kills Itachi under 10 secs. Tobirama kills Itachi under 7 secs



Only if either of them had shown anything that would make this ridiculous statement even remotely correct.


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## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Like Itachi has shown anything remotely skilled enough to take out two of the top hokages ever to live... Itachi wank at its finest



Sorry, but, Hashirama is the top Hokage, not Minato or Tobirama.

Itachi has shown speed and reactions that allow him comfortably to deal with the Hokages' speed outside of Hiraishin and his unmatched kunai/shuriken skill basically nullify Minato's FTG kunai (in an offensive manner). 

Minato has shown nothing that would suggest he could even deal with Itachi's basic Sharingan genjutsu. For Tobirama I'm giving the benefit of doubt since has a vast experience fighting the Uchiha. Tsukuyomi one shots both of them.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Only if either of them had shown anything that would make this ridiculous statement even remotely correct.




*Minato vs Itachi*

*Spoiler*: __ 



Minato's chances compared to Itachi's skyrocket due to his superiority in stamina. Minato can just...evade everything, while gradually wearing Itachi down through 
repeated blitz attempts. Minato has the necessary reflexes and mobility, as well as general 
skill to employ this strategy imo; he shouldn't fuck up and fall to genjutsu that he knows all about.

He has enough speed to deal with most of Itachi's attacks and Itachi himself and with S/T barrier Minato can protect himself from alot of attacks as well. Clones can carry tagged kunai to further spread around the battlefield where Minato can go as well as the clones being able to tag the surrounding area and with the clones themselves being able to be tagged so Minato can use Goshun Mawashi to help get out of bad situations, they provide Minato will great use on offense and defense. Adding in Minato's stamina compared to Itachi stamina and things are looking well in his favor. Itachi's only shot imo is if he manages to catch Minato with a lucky MS hit. 




*Tobirama vs Itachi*

*Spoiler*: __ 




Tobi wins
He can expand his use of FTG through his KB as well as edos that he has here ITT,, as he can also destroy itachis susanoo variants through GKF as he can also use it through his 2 edos, which would allow tobirama to mark itachi similar to how marked juubito. He can also use FTG to evade all of itachis attacks genjutsu is not happening since tobirama has sensing skillls as well as his FTG being fast enough for him to evade sharingan precog and evade eye contact


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 25, 2014)

Itachi is capable of beating either of them, as I consider the trio to be equals. As for who would give him a harder time, I'd probably say Tobirama due to experience in fighting Uchiha and tactical mindset.


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## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

Itachi doesn't need a "lucky MS hit" since Minato showed no effort in trying to avoid Obito's Sharingan the night he died. Minato is put in a genjutsu within 2 minutes into the fight.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Itachi doesn't need a "lucky MS hit" since Minato showed no effort in trying to avoid Obito's Sharingan the night he died. Minato is put in a genjutsu within 2 minutes into the fight.




Minato knew exactly what he was doing in that fight with Obito.

Itachi's neck is slashed within seconds.



@ CatnipA

I don't hate Itachi. I dislike Sasuke though. The problem is that Itachi fans wank harder than any other fandom around. Itachi > Kaguya because genjutsu GG (it wouldnt be surprising to see that from a few people around here )


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## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Minato knew exactly what he was doing in that fight with Obito.


Doesn't change the fact that against Itachi he will be 5 layers deep in genjutsu if he keeps eye contact. 


> Itachi's neck is slashed within seconds.



Minato gets ripped in half by Susano'o if he goes at Itachi without Hiraishin tags around.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Doesn't change the fact that against Minato, Itachi gets raped






saikyou said:


> Minato rips the Susano'o in half and Itachi gets fucked...hard




I completely agree. Thanks for getting off your knees from Itachi's nuts so you could actually start thinking straight.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> although sometimes I don't know whether I'm trolling or not.
> but yeah, I do believe that Minato is more powerful than Tobirama with a good gab based
> on their feats, hype, and portrayal. Honestly all there is to Tobirama that I see is people actually
> giving him Minato's feats.



I agree that Minato is stronger. Although I don't think there is a gap. If they fought, Minato'd win by a hairs breadth. 
I also think that Tobirama was portrayed as a stronger individual(lifting his finger and making everyone crap his pants). But his feats don't match the hype.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree that Minato is stronger. Although I don't think there is a gap. If they fought, Minato'd win by a hairs breadth.
> I also think that Tobirama was portrayed as a stronger individual(lifting his finger and making everyone crap his pants). But his feats don't match the hype.




Thing is Minato & Tobirama were both hyped and portrayed as higher than Itachi.  If were going to be honest and all ( Not like honesty matters to most fans I suppose )


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Thing is Minato & Tobirama were both hyped and portrayed as higher than Itachi.  If were going to be honest and all ( Not like honesty matters to most fans I suppose )



You know this never ending hatred for a character and the constant baits can get your banned if someone reports you right ? 

Just saying.


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## Kyu (Sep 25, 2014)

Minato is faster & more evasive than Tobirama, plus he has Fūinjutsu hax at his disposal. On the other hand, Tobirama is more experienced in fighting Uchiha.

Either or would give Itachi the fight of his life.


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## Rocky (Sep 25, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Itachi doesn't need a "lucky MS hit" since Minato showed no effort in trying to avoid Obito's Sharingan the night he died. Minato is put in a genjutsu within 2 minutes into the fight.



Now that would be dependent on knowledge. If it is none, then Minato does lose more that he wins, but that's the nature of facing Itachi without knowledge. In a no knowledge scenario, imo Itachi has a chance against Hashirama....

If it's full, Minato will just keep teleporting out of Itachi's sight line...



> and his unmatched kunai/shuriken skill basically nullify Minato's FTG kunai (in an offensive manner).



Except Minato can still warp to Kunai that are deflected, grab them out of the air, and throw them again. Deflection is pointless, because as soon as they're knocked down they'll be back on their way again. 

We know Minato can move between his Kunai pretty quickly because of the whole "killed 50 guys in one blink" thing, so I have no issues believing he can do what I'm saying he can. 

Actually, rapidly jumping from Kunai to Kunai is very likely the concept behind his unrevealed jutsu. I'm speculating now, but his UJ in the new game is probably what he was going to use against Obito, because it looks well within his capability perform this (minus the mountain busting Rasengan):

[youtube]0KDwi2YWxyY[/youtube]


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## Dr. White (Sep 25, 2014)

This is the best Itachi vs Tobirama vs Minato thread ever.


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## Dr. White (Sep 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> > If it's full, Minato will just keep teleporting out of Itachi's sight line...
> 
> 
> I never understood this argument. Itachi literally needs a split second of eye contact to get one in a genjutsu (see diedara, and vs Killer Bee), what's more is Itachi has the hype of controlling multiple from range, so Minato teleporting isn't going to help him escape.
> ...


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## Rocky (Sep 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I never understood this argument. Itachi literally needs a split second of eye contact to get one in a genjutsu (see diedara, and vs Killer Bee), what's more is Itachi has the hype of controlling multiple from range, so Minato teleporting isn't going to help him escape.



Remaining outside of Itachi's vision prevents eye contact from ever occuring, and Itachi has hype of maintaining control from range, not actually ensnaring targets from range.



> Minato had his squad mates dirtibute the Kunai on the enemies side of the field so that he could simply pop and Hirashin V2 everyone and their mom because no one had speed/reactions on his level. He didn't pull an Itachi/Sasuke and simply throw his weapons and teleport mid air while soloing.



The statement involving what happened in the Gaiden was more about how fast he can move between the weapons. The fact that 50 grown men died in the span of an eyelid twitch would indicate that it is pretty fast.

Him actually _throwing_ the weapons while warping that fast was speculation, like I said it was. Though warping rapidly between deflected Kunai and throwing them again wouldn't really take more time then warping rapidly between randomly placed Kunai and slitting some guys throat.

Regardless, I think that game ultimate is more or less his unrevealed jutsu in the manga, minus uber Rasengan at the end there. He even creates the clone, _holds_ the Kunai the same way....I mean, how coincidental could this be.


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## Dr. White (Sep 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Remaining outside of Itachi's vision prevents eye contact from ever occuring, and Itachi has hype of maintaining control from range, not actually ensnaring targets from range.


No it was ensnaring people and controlling them from outside a sensor range. Their whole dihlema was figuring out why people where becoming possessed with no signs of being controlled. Hence why they bring up Itachi as a possible source because
A. He can get you from range (hence the sensors not detecting him ensnaring anyone)

The alternative is to believe Shikaku and AO believed Itachi was walking up to multiple people in a platoon, genjutsui'ing them, and then fleeing from range.
The statement involving what happened in the Gaiden was more about how fast he can move between the weapons. The fact that 50 grown men died in the span of an eyelid twitch would indicate that it is pretty fast.

Him actually _throwing_ the weapons while warping that fast was speculation, like I said it was. Though warping rapidly between deflected Kunai and throwing them again wouldn't really take more time then warping rapidly between randomly placed Kunai and slitting some guys throat.

Regardless, I think that game ultimate is more or less his unrevealed jutsu in the manga, minus uber Rasengan at the end there. He even creates the clone, _holds_ the Kunai the same way....I mean, how coincidental could this be.[/QUOTE]

Will respon to the rest later I'm in class.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Minato's chances compared to Itachi's skyrocket due to his superiority in stamina. Minato can just...evade everything, while gradually wearing Itachi down through 
repeated blitz attempts. Minato has the necessary reflexes and mobility, as well as general 
skill to employ this strategy imo; he shouldn't fuck up and fall to genjutsu that he knows all about.

He has enough speed to deal with most of Itachi's attacks and Itachi himself and with S/T barrier Minato can protect himself from alot of attacks as well. Clones can carry tagged kunai to further spread around the battlefield where Minato can go as well as the clones being able to tag the surrounding area and with the clones themselves being able to be tagged so Minato can use Goshun Mawashi to help get out of bad situations, they provide Minato will great use on offense and defense. Adding in Minato's stamina compared to Itachi stamina and things are looking well in his favor. Itachi's only shot imo is if he manages to catch Minato with a lucky MS hit.


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

> =Authoritah;51815655]I must truly be bored.


Same here. @.@



> lolanime
> 
> When Minato got there, there were only  and Minato defeated them and like   that attacked Kakashi.



He never stated that they are at the same place necessarily, and we know Minato was in several different mission. For example, when Obito asked about him and Zetsu told him that his is in a different mission, and when he fought A/B and then there was another mission or something...


> You think that all shinobi that are "fodder" are equal so by that logic beginning of Part II base Sasuke is numerous times stronger than Tobirama.


Never said they are equal. The point is they get killed easily, and we saw that numerous times. The big threat were Kin and Gin.



> There is no reason to compare things we know nothing about (Tobirama vs. Kinkaku Force/Kinkaku and Ginkaku).



We don't know about A and B's fight against Minato in details either, but we know the result. 



> Minato did it with with Kurama's chakra.


It has nothing to do with chakra. Tobirama said he can support ALL of them, but he can't teleport all of them at the same time as Minato. It was due to Minato's superior skills over Tobirama.


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree that Minato is stronger. Although I don't think there is a gap. If they fought, Minato'd win by a hairs breadth.
> I also think that Tobirama was portrayed as a stronger individual(lifting his finger and making everyone crap his pants). But his feats don't match the hype.



How do you explain that Tobirama couldn't do a fraction of what Minato did?
Even though Kishi put them in similar situations, and kinda similar foes, but Minato's feats far exceeds Tobirama's.


Edit: mmm did I fucked up in this poll?


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Now that would be dependent on knowledge. If it is none, then Minato does lose more that he wins, but that's the nature of facing Itachi without knowledge. In a no knowledge scenario, imo Itachi has a chance against Hashirama....
> 
> If it's full, Minato will just keep teleporting out of Itachi's sight line...
> ]



This "no knowledge" always being in itachi's favour is extremely overrated.  
how is Itachi going to know about the Kunais and how avoid it/counter it,  if he does not no about FTG? 

and since Minato throws the Kunais in a speed faster than Kamui, and can teleport in and out
in a speed faster than 8th Gate Gai, how would itachi even last more than 1 second? 

why do you assume that itachi will have the first move when Minato is several times faster than him?


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## Rocky (Sep 25, 2014)

If Itachi had genjutsu that didn't require eye contact at all, that would have been helpful against Kabuto...


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## Dominus (Sep 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> He never stated that they are at the same place necessarily, and we know Minato was in several different mission. For example, when Obito asked about him and Zetsu told him that his is in a different mission, and when he fought A/B and then there was another mission or something...



If the author wanted us to believe he fought a 1000 of them, those Konoha shinobi would have said there is around 1000 shinobi, not 50. You are again ignoring my points, even if he fought a 1000 shinobi that doesn't mean that he's stronger than Tobirama who died against 20 because by that logic beginning of Part II base Sasuke would be much stronger than Tobirama as well.



> Never said they are equal. The point is they get killed easily, and we saw that numerous times. The big threat were Kin and Gin.



You basically said that Minato is 50 times stronger than Tobirama because Minato defeated a 1000 shinobi and Tobirama lost against 20 ninjas which implies that you think all of them are equal. 

And you did say they were all the same like in the quote bellow. 



Hussain said:


> We saw that from every area those
> canon fodders are always the same







> We don't know about A and B's fight against Minato in details either, but we know the result.



As I said, the battle we don't know about is Tobirama vs. Kinkaku Force/Kinkaku and Ginkaku so its illogical to determine Tobirama's strength based on those fights. 



> It has nothing to do with chakra. Tobirama said he can support ALL of them, but he can't teleport all of them at the same time as Minato. It was due to Minato's superior skills over Tobirama.



That isn't supported by anything, it's implied by Minato when  that teleporting is chakra related.


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## Bonly (Sep 25, 2014)

I'd say Minato could give Itachi more of a challenge in battle. More options with Hiraishin available which can make things a bit easier, an S/T barrier, faster speed, and SM if Minato thought it was needed and got enough time to use it would make it a bit more challenging.


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## Dr. White (Sep 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If Itachi had genjutsu that didn't require eye contact at all, that would have been helpful against Kabuto...



A.) We have to take the scene as it is... The point is Ao and Shukaku stated Itachi could hypnoize and control people from range, we don't know the specifics about it, but nonetheless unless Shikaku (one of the most knowledge Konoha ninja) and AO were lying or completely wrong, it's something Itachi has up his sleeve.

It's possible  his long range genjutsu still requires some visual stimuli, it can just be cast from long range. I don't usually use it it arguments but just thought I'd bring it up since I never liked the idea of Hirashin making one immune to genjutsu.

B.) I don't think any genjutsu under MS Tsukuyomi would affect Kabuto to the point Itachi wanted it too. Kabuto was great at chakra control, and he even thought he could Kai out of Izanami. Tsukuyomi was the one that could completely bypass his mind with ease.


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## Final Jutsu (Sep 25, 2014)

Read the poll wrong and voted wrong.. Itachi can't beat either.  I'd say Tobirama may have better strategies due to his long history battling Uchiha.  With Edo tensei and bunshin, Itachi would have a lot to watch out for.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How do you explain that Tobirama couldn't do a fraction of what Minato did?
> Even though Kishi put them in similar situations, and kinda similar foes, but Minato's feats far exceeds Tobirama's.
> 
> 
> Edit: mmm did I fucked up in this poll?



Thats a bit of an overstatement. Tobirama proved to be as good of a team player as Minato, if not better.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I never liked the idea of Hirashin making one immune to genjutsu.





Attacking the Sharingan's blind spot is supposed to be the go-to method of fighting it. Technically, Minato can have a clone be the diversion, because it won't get caught in genjutsu _and_ it can use Hiraishin, meaning it still has beastly speed.

Unless Itachi can manage to position himself in a way so that he never has his back to one of Minato's marks, Minato can be at his blind spot at the drop of a dime...and since Minato carries like, _80_ Pre-marked Kunai, and can place more marks with his hands throughout a battle, the chances of Itachi managing that are basically not there. 

The only reason Itachi doesn't get beaten in seconds by a barrage of marked Kunai thrown at his blind spot is because of Susano'o's omnidirectional defense and his own clone feints, which is why this fight is extreme difficulty. Minato would have to outlast Susano'o (or warp it and hope to capitilize on the opening), be proactive, and play nearly perfect.

With full knowledge, I see that being possible, because Minato is one of the more efficient and generally competent ninja in the manga. I trust him not to fuck up to the point that he loses to lolclonefeint, and trickery is Itachi's only reliable way or ever laying a hand on Yondaime.

Of course Itachi _can_ win with a lucky Tsukuyomi or Bunshin -> Amaterasu combo, but Minato should be able to predict such...obvious tactics with full Intel. Imo, Susano'o's chakra drain becoming too big a problem leads to Itachi's downfall.


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## Dr. White (Sep 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> > Attacking the Sharingan's blind spot is supposed to be the go-to method of fighting it. Technically, Minato can have a clone be the diversion, because it won't get caught in genjutsu _and_ it can use Hiraishin, meaning it still has beastly speed.
> 
> 
> That isn't what i was referring to. Obviously Kage bushin, and using FTG to not get caught will keep him out. I'm refering to when people say FTG can get Minato out of genjutsu (in which he is ensared).
> ...


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## Blaze Release (Sep 25, 2014)

I personally rate Tobirama as the second strongest hokage after his brother. Unless we are talking edo Minato who is the second strongest in that case. So due to that reason alone Itachi will struggle more agains't Tobirama. But i believe those that keep claiming he has experience dealing with uchiha/genjutsu are overestimating this. Sure he does, but i am certain if he fights itachi, he will fight an uchiha like never before. Those fodder uchiha of the past, shouldn't hold a candle to itachi talent and genjutsu prowess so while he should have this experience i believe he will have greater difficulty dealing with itachi that any uchiha of the past he has faced izuna included. May even see Itachi using this line he used on Naruto on him [1]and casting an illusion somehow on him. So far the only uchiha to have shown genjutsu outside the sharingan is Itachi. Certain those uchiha of the past that Tobirama has info on, also follow this pattern. So Tobirama will most likely be wary of sharingan genjutsu and nothing else.

His arsenal is similar to minato and while edo tensei may tilt this in favour of Tobirama if this is tobirama before he slapped a kinjutsu on the technique and never used it again then, he without doubt is who Itachi will find more challenging even those tbh fodder edo's should get dealt with via the totsuka and as itachi claimed he is the weakness of the technique lol.

He has large reserves and since i buy into his senju hype should have the second greatest reserves amongst the hokage's, this isn't taking into consideration edo minato's jin status. He is also a suiton user and by hype i believe he alone can counter even madara's katon's so should have little trouble with Itachi's though amaterasu is something even with his suiton put out.

All 3 can use the kage bunshin. Dunno why people are mentioning it in Tobirama's case and not Minato's. Minato is overall the better hiraishin user, but also has toad summonings.


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## Rocky (Sep 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> That isn't what i was referring to. Obviously Kage bushin, and using FTG to not get caught will keep him out. I'm refering to when people say FTG can get Minato out of genjutsu (in which he is ensared).



Oh.

I don't think that would work either, mainly because Minato wouldn't know he was in an illusion until a serious Itachi had already killed him.



> Blindisding Itachi is easier said than done. Zetsu implied a serious Itachi would have dodged Sasuke Fuma shuriken with ease (whilst being mid air), Naruto also tried blindsiding him with clones, which Itachi didn't even have to look back to destroy.



Fuma Shuriken & Start of PII Base Naruto aren't exactly comparable to Minato. 

Itachi may have more defined senses than typical Uchiha, but a blind side is a blind side. It's going to be difficult for Itachi to react to thrown Kunai _in time to prevent them from coming anywhere near him_ if Minato literally disappears from his vision (with Hiraishin) and throws fifteen at the back of his head from a random tree somewhere.

That's common sense. Itachi may know that the Kunai are coming, but doing something in time is a different story. The only way he's getting out of that is Susano'o.



> At most he gets out the amount he did vs Ei. Which once again is enough to evade Itachi for most of the fight, but nothing like you are trying to portray by using that feat.



I forgot about his backpack. 

Normally he has at least 30 though, which is enough to cover all directions and accomplish what I said.

He likely carries much more than that, though. Think about how many shuriken Itachi manged to fit in his little weapons pouch. I'm only guessing, but I don't see why Minato wouldn't maximize on the amount of weapons he carries around when they're such an integral part of his fighting style. 

Oh, and his clones get their own Kunai pouches, so the amount of marks Minato could potentially have on the field at any give time is massive.



> Or he isn't Jonin Iwa fodder? Minato isn't fast enough (outside of Hirashin V2) to pressure Itachi as such. With Itachi's speed, sharingan reactions, dexterity and weapon skill I highly doubt Minato is going to be pressuring Itachi as such.



...unless I'm missing something, we are discussing Minato with access to Hiraishin, who is easily fast enough to constantly pressure Itachi.



> base Minato would not beat Itachi in seconds unless it was a no knowledge fight and Itachi was restricted solely to base. Even that (considering his genjutsu skill, bushin feats, and physical skill) is a highly suspect remark.



Base Minato would speed blitz Base Itachi by just throwing Kunai at him until one got close lol. The ability to instantaneously move to his Kunai means that he can just teleport to defected ones, snatch them out of midair, and throw them again. 

Or he can just spread out a bunch of marks, and throw Kunai as he teleports to each one, meaning Itachi's going to get bombarded from all directions. With no Susano'o, I'm not seeing how Itachi survives more than a few seconds unless he can manage to stall with a clone feint.



> I disagree about the clone feints though considering Itachi's ability to feint top tier sensors/sharingan users right in front of their faces.



Minato likely wouldn't be able to track Itachi's clone creation. This is why I said he'd have to be proactive and _expect_ these feints from Itachi so that he doesn't get sniped by Amaterasu from a random bush somewhere.


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## Kaiser (Sep 25, 2014)

With Edo tensei, Tobirama will be more challenging. Without edo tensei, Minato will be more challenging. I don't think experience in fighting Uchihas will play a role considering we've seen that Kage level fighters can easily adapt in fighting without making eye contact with the opponent, not to mention they are both sensors to boot. I feel Minato will be more challenging because outside his superior speed and hiraishin usage, he can have an upgrade(SM) giving him the upper hand any moment especially with his superior summons


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## Dr. White (Sep 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> > Fuma Shuriken & Start of PII Base Naruto aren't exactly comparable to Minato.
> 
> 
> -Naruto's trickery has taken out the likes of Pein, and Kakuzu. I'm not saying those feats are top tier but they showcase Itachi's awareness, and ability to dodge things even in terrible positions.
> ...


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## Cognitios (Sep 25, 2014)

All Itachi needs to do is amaterasu all minato's tags.
If Minato warps to them he catches ama, can't really escape from that.
If Itachi figures this out early he can catch it while minato is still spreading tags.
Or he can use mad shuriken skills to knock all of minato's kunai in one area and then lite them all on fire.
That pretty much makes ftg moot and makes minato useless. If you do anything to remove his tags he is mid kage level, at best.


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## Bonly (Sep 25, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> All Itachi needs to do is amaterasu all minato's tags.
> If Minato warps to them he catches ama, can't really escape from that.
> If Itachi figures this out early he can catch it while minato is still spreading tags.
> Or he can use mad shuriken skills to knock all of minato's kunai in one area and then lite them all on fire.
> That pretty much makes ftg moot and makes minato useless. If you do anything to remove his tags he is mid kage level, at best.



Couldn't Minato simply just teleport his kunai back to him if Itachi tried such a tactic before a few of them caught on fire?


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## Rocky (Sep 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Naruto's trickery has taken out the likes of Pein, and Kakuzu. I'm not saying those feats are top tier but they showcase Itachi's awareness, and ability to dodge things even in terrible positions.



That was a Naruto multiple arcs later, and Itachi is better in that area then Pain.

Dodging the Kunai won't work unless he dodges them _all_ by a couple meters, which he won't be doing if he's in such a terrible position.



> IMO it's akin to me saying Itachi opens up with finger genjutsu + crow clone and overhwlems Minato and gets him genjutsu. Sure both of those things can effect him but Itachi is gonna have to put alot more effort into landing them, likewise with Minato.



No it isn't, because genjutsu is dependent upon Minato looking at Itachi's body, which he doesn't have to do before blitzing with full knowledge. 



> How fast do you think Minato is at throwing? sharingan pre cog not only alerts Itachi Minato will be throwing before he has thrown but he's literally gonna have a trajectory as to where it's going. Itachi's handseal feats, movement speed, and weapon skills really have me doubting what you'r saying.



Do you even know what I'm arguing? 

Minato isn't going to be throwing the majority of these Kunai in Itachi's field of vision. That's the beauty of spreading out tags over a battlefield. They're going to be coming from everywhere. The front, flank, above if there are trees, etc.  And then there's clones...

Sharingan precognition doesn't help against Minato attacking his blind spot. The Sharingan cannot see that, and thus he must rely on his base reflexes.

Against the Yellow Flash. 



> I doubt it, his display vs Ei was vs two high caliber opponents and their team. I place that as his casual encounter limit. Although I don't see a problem with him summoning more should he get down time.



That was just the amount he spread out. We don't know if that was all he was carrying.



> The way I am seeing it you think Minato is gonna pull out his special Naruto Revolutions move where he is bamflashing all around an opponent mid air with all the kunai's floating around the opponent.



All Minato did in the storm game was teleport rapidly between Kunai while throwing them at his opponent.

That is literally the _same exact thing_ he did against those 50 rock ninja, with killing the fodder in place of throwing the Kunai. He apparently did this so fast that his teammates didn't want to *blink* because they might miss it.

What, do you not believe he is fast enough? With all that speed hype? 



> The way I see it actually go down is more akin to Ei vs Minato where they are spead but stationary. Also just saying if Bee was smart enough to predict Minato's Hirashin movement after being tagged with knowledge, I don't see why you think Minato could ever bamflash Itachi from the start.



There will be stationary marks. Itachi won't be bum rushing Minato with v2 flickers though, so Minato can actually go on the offensive here.

B did predict Hiraishin, but Minato teleported behind B and literally said "I won't fail." Which was plotdumb and provided counter attack opportunity. 

If Itachi gets marked, he's more likely to end up like Obito, who didn't even realize what happened until a contract seal was already placed on him.



> Itachi has one of the fastest Jutsu execution speeds/combat speed on Minato's level, I seriously think you are underestmating that aspect of Itachi.



Reflexes ≠ Combat speed. Itachi has reflexes that are comparable to Minato, but his combat speed isn't even close.

Itachi cannot slit 50 throats in less than a second. Nor can he blitz A, or physically strike Obito in his Kamui interval without even using clones.



> Also in a game to see who can land their weapons closer/parry eachother Kunai's; I'm going with the sharingan user who can curve Kunai, and use Kunai to change another Kunai's trajectory.



This is not just Minato standing still and throwing Kunai at Itachi expecting something to happen.

It's like you don't believe Minato can throw Kunai and use Hiraishin at the same time.



> -Katon + Flicker
> -Katon + Clone
> -Replace Suiton with Katon
> -Bushin Explosion
> -Genjutsu deception.



If Itachi goes to block LOS so he can switch with a clone, Minato can just teleport behind him when he's making the seals or drawing in the breath for the elemental jutsu.


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## Rocky (Sep 25, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> All Itachi needs to do is amaterasu all minato's tags.



So Itachi commits suicide?



> If Itachi figures this out early he can catch it while minato is still spreading tags.



Minato spreads tags in one motion, and it's the first thing he'll do.



> Or he can use mad shuriken skills to knock all of minato's kunai in one area and then lite them all on fire.



lol


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## Nikushimi (Sep 25, 2014)

Itachi has a 50/50 shot at beating Minato or Tobirama.

It depends heavily on the circumstances and stipulations of the engagement, although either match is generally going to be close.


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## CatnipAvenger (Sep 25, 2014)

The only question is if Minato will get tricked by a Boom Clone.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi has a 50/50 shot at beating Minato or Tobirama.
> 
> It depends heavily on the circumstances and stipulations of the engagement, although either match is generally going to be close.




I agree, if this alive Minato of course.


Wouldnt u say Tobirama would be the tougher match of the 2 since he's dealt with more Uchiha in the past than the 4th ?


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

> [===Authoritah;51817759]If the author wanted us to believe he fought a 1000 of them, those Konoha shinobi would have said there is around 1000 shinobi, not 50. You are again ignoring my points, even if he fought a 1000 shinobi that doesn't mean that he's stronger than Tobirama who died against 20 because by that logic beginning of Part II base Sasuke would be much stronger than Tobirama as well.


The author stated there are 1000 thousands, and even those in the studio, who have direct contact with Kishi understood it the same exact way.

As for your point, the Sound Village is not even from the 5 Great Nations. We know from the Fan Book that the military power for Iwa and Kumo are relatively the same. (Both have 4) 


> You basically said that Minato is 50 times stronger than Tobirama because Minato defeated a 1000 shinobi and Tobirama lost against 20 ninjas which implies that you think all of them are equal.
> 
> And you did say they were all the same like in the quote bellow.



I told you those 18 fodders are more or less around the same level as the fodders from the different villages, yes, I said that. But I also stated that Kin/Gin are different and they were the main threat. 




> As I said, the battle we don't know about is Tobirama vs. Kinkaku Force/Kinkaku and Ginkaku so its illogical to determine Tobirama's strength based on those fights.


But this thing did not happen only 1 time, but rather it was repeated and it was noticed that Kin/Gin are stronger than Tobirama. The same with Minato and A/B, they did not only have 1 fight, but they were fighting constantly. Sure, people don't give him credit for that for being what they called "feats Whores" (I don't know honestly if there is another term being used here ) 

but the fight happened nevertheless... 
we only have hints and statements from here and there, and I'm basing my opinion on them rather
than pretending that they never existed. Sure, if we know what happened exactly things may have differed, but again, since it's the same for both Tobirama and Minato, I think that's fair enough...



> That isn't supported by anything, it's implied by Minato when  that teleporting is chakra related.


O.K?
Then why Tobirama said he will support all them, but the thing he noticed was supporting them *at the same time.*? 

Unless it's different to teleport them all at the same time, and to teleport them all, but bit by bit. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats a bit of an overstatement. Tobirama proved to be as good of a team player as Minato, if not better.



How was he as good exactly? 
Sorry mate, but Kishi put those 2 in similar situations more or less, and Tobirama has never proved such thing. If we go in the similarities that Kishi put them in, he always made sure that Minato does
the greater feat. 

1- The first comparison Kishi made was about their speed. The thing Tobirama was most proud of according to Madara. 

*Spoiler*: __ 







and the gap was not small either, even though a different in 1 second can change everything like with A and Obito. The different here was big enough to save the world, Minato using the barrier, preparing the Kunais, and having a conversation with his child, before Tobirama could even arrive.

2- The second one.
*Spoiler*: __ 








Tobirama was against inferior Obito who was not in control of his power, yet he lost more than half of his body completely. On the other hand, Kishi putted Minato against a superior foe, yet the damage was much less in Minato's case as he lost only 1 arm. 

3-
*Spoiler*: __ 








Although both of them got fodderized, but again, Kishi putted Minato against a superior madara than the one who fought Tobirama, and again, while Tobirama was shut down completely, Minato lost only 1 arm. I hope you acknowledge that the Juubi's power makes a huge gap in power/speed than without it. 

4-
*Spoiler*: __ 








Kishi made Tobirama teleport 1 Gedu-dama, yet he still made sure to make Minato accomplish greater feat, dealing with 5 without any arms! And the feat that people still don't give Minato credits for, which is outpacing 8th Gate Gai. 

5- 
*Spoiler*: __ 








Once again, Kishi makes sure to show Minato as being the better one.

6-



If you think teleporting 2 people, is any where near proven to be "as good" as teleporting several thousands at the same time, I guess you might want to see deeper in yourself....


And those only in this war. The similarity goes like
Kin and Gin, both are brothers, and both from Kumo, yet the defeated Tobirama with the 2nd Raikage
and the second time, even with his students he wouldn't have made it.

A and B both are brothers, and both from Kumo as well, yet Minato dealt with both of them at the same time, and they both admitted inferiority. Of course, people yet again don't give Minato and credits or even the benefit of doubt or anything at all. 

even in terms of silly thing like Tobirama using 2 fingers to sense his foes, Kishi made Minato use only 1, and even the number was the same "20" lol, and Minato fought more after that in the War. 


Tobirama was fighting an Uchiha with MS (Izuna), and apparently they were close in power with Tobirama being superior at the end of the day. 


Kishi made Minato fight an even greater Uchiha with MS (Obito) even though Obito had all the advantages, and he learned all of MADARA'S jutsus, and yet he still got schooled in no time without a scratch. 


Sure, Tobirama has some "badass" moments here and their, but Minato's feats are just plain better
in everything. All those similer situations, Minato had better results, against greater foes, and harder circumstances. 






Cognitios said:


> All Itachi needs to do is amaterasu all minato's tags.
> If Minato warps to them he catches ama, can't really escape from that.
> If Itachi figures this out early he can catch it while minato is still spreading tags.
> Or he can use mad shuriken skills to knock all of minato's kunai in one area and then lite them all on fire.
> That pretty much makes ftg moot and makes minato useless. If you do anything to remove his tags he is mid kage level, at best.



So, you're suggesting that itachi will drain himself out by wasting so much chakra to burn each Kunai (even though the seals never disappear) and burden the side affect of the Amatersu with each usage? lol


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## Cognitios (Sep 25, 2014)

> So, you're suggesting that itachi will drain himself out by wasting so much chakra to burn each Kunai (even though the seals never disappear) and burden the side affect of the Amatersu with each usage? lol


If you had read the rest of my post besides the first sentence you would know that's not what i suggested at all.
and the seals not disappearing is exactly what itachi's coutning on. Minato teleports to them and gets enveloped in amaterasu. Itachi ribcage susanoo camps or simply walks away from tags and it's gg


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2014)

^

That makes no sense whatsoever. 
First, I don't know how did you assume that itachi knows about the seal, when Obito, who's Minato's student does not know about them (that they don't vanish). Second, Minato teleport near the Kunais, not exactly at them, so the Kunais being in the flames won't hurt him.


Also, even if the falme caught Minato, it really is pointless as he can teleport them away, or teleport himself out
as when Naruto and Sasuke attacked him with the Enton FRS.


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## Cognitios (Sep 25, 2014)

> The makes no sense whatsoever.
> First, I don't know how did you assume that itachi knows about the seal, when Obito, who's Minato student does not know about them. Second, Minato teleport near the Kunais, not exactly at them, so the Kunais being in the flames won't hurt him.


Itachi doesn't need to know they disappear, he just needs to know that Minato will teleport to them to know that minato will get caught on the flame.
Even if its not exactly on them you do realise that flames spread right? Amaterasu does too, look after the sauce battle, it was everywhere. a 1 meter radius will be quickly covered.




> Also, even if the falme caught Minato, it really is pointless as he can teleport them away, or teleport himself out
> as when Naruto and Sasuke attacked him with the Enton FRS.


I'mma need a scan that shows FTG getting out of Amasterasu before i believe it.
Minato can't warp certain parts of his body with ftg like obito can.


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Itachi doesn't need to know they disappear, he just needs to know that Minato will teleport to them to know that minato will get caught on the flame.
> Even if its not exactly on them you do realise that flames spread right? Amaterasu does too, look after the sauce battle, it was everywhere. a 1 meter radius will be quickly covered.
> 
> 
> ...



1- Minato separates his Kunais in a huge distances, and he is fast at it (as Tobirama said), and the Amatersu is a short range jutsu. You just make the assumption that all the Kunais will be near each other,and they will scream to itachi "burn us!"  

2- The flame separates if there is trues or something around them.


_Yes._
Minato teleported out of it without any damage whatsoever.


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

For the 30 Kunais. I believe those are more than 30.


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## Cognitios (Sep 26, 2014)

> 1- Minato separates his Kunais in a huge distances, and he is fast at it (as Tobirama said), and the Amatersu is a short range jutsu. You just make the assumption that all the Kunais will be near each other,and they will scream to itachi "burn us!"


I explained in my original post already how itahci would group the kunai together. Read my post enxt time



> 2- The flame separates if there is trues or something around them.


I'm sorry can you restate that?



> Spoiler:
> 
> [1]
> Minato teleported out of it without any damage whatsoever.


He wasn't every hit by it, at the last second he teleported out of the way and juubito got hit instead.
That's what he did in your fave panel too.


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## Rocky (Sep 26, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> He wasn't every hit by it, at the last second he teleported out of the way and juubito got hit instead.



That's just factually wrong. He was hit by it, and if you look at the panel, that's clear. The flames on the Rasenshuriken normally resemble a standard FRS, yet in that panel, they're pointed back towards Nardo & Sauce. Oh, and Minato's body is clearly responding to being struck.


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I explained in my original post already how itahci would group the kunai together. Read my post enxt time
> 
> 
> I'm sorry can you restate that?
> ...



- the thing is he can't because Minato is WAY faster than he is.
- Basically the Amtersu needs something to separate like the trees. In Itachi's battle with Sasuke the flam burned a part of a tree, and then the tree got burned, and because of that the trees besides it got burned as well...etc

However, if there are no trees or something that can actually get burned, then the flame won't separate. For example, Sauke tried to burn the Juubi but the Juubi got rid of it, and putted the flame on the ground. The fire can't burn the ground, and because of that the Enton did not separate and burn the entire field....

on other words, the flame needs something to continue, like woods or something. Therefore, this scenario you're talking about will depends on the battlefield. It may work at a forest, but it won't work at the sea or a cave for example. 

3- Yes he was. 
if he was not hit by it, he wouldn't have been pushed back because of the impact.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 26, 2014)

You forgot to mention base Jiraiya?


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2014)

I forgot how good Hussain's arguments in a Tobirama/Minato thread are, the first two page gave me the will to skip his post 

OT: One is faster while the other fought many Uchiha in the past. So Tobirama

Inb4 Kin/Gin argument that was retcon'ed


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> I forgot how good Hussain's arguments in a Tobirama/Minato thread are, the first two page gave me the will to skip his post
> 
> OT: One is faster while the other fought many Uchiha in the past. So Tobirama
> 
> Inb4 Kin/Gin argument that was retcon'ed



stay salty. 
everything you don't like got retconned. :rofl

did I mention Madara's power got retconned as well, and he became fodder  below BZ's level? ck


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## Cognitios (Sep 26, 2014)

So that means Itachi invincibility didn't get reconned right?
Don't blame one person for doing the exact same thing you do.


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> stay salty.
> everything you don't like got retconned. :rofl
> 
> did I mention Madara's power got retconned as well, and he became fodder  below BZ's level? ck



Or that BZ could take over Madara due to the Shinju (which had Kaguya) ck

Also, considering the shit he pulled as a Edo,  he is Minato/Itachi tier.


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> So that means Itachi invincibility didn't get reconned right?
> Don't blame one person for doing the exact same thing you do.



He was never one to get retconned. Since the moment he appeared we learned that he's below Jiraiya.



Hachibi said:


> Or that BZ could take over Madara due to the Shinju (which had Kaguya) ck
> 
> Also, considering the shit he pulled as a Edo,  he is Minato/Itachi tier.



- No, JJ madara's got reconned to fodder level that is below Mei's bodyguard's level. ck 
- He's itachi's tiers for sure. But since thousands are way more than couple of things, I can't say the same about Minato. :Hehee


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - No, JJ madara's got reconned to fodder level that is below Mei's bodyguard's level. ck
> - He's itachi's tiers for sure. But since thousands are way more than couple of things, I can't say the same about Minato. :Hehee



-By this logic, Kaguya got retcon'ed to Sakura level, which Sasuke can defeat with a glance ck

-


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

- She got retcon'ed to team 7 level. 
+ isn't that your logic? ck

everything you don't like is a retcon!


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - She got retcon'ed to team 7 level.
> + isn't that your logic? ck
> 
> everything you don't like is a retcon!



I feel pure apathy for this manga except for really good chapter like the Pre-Juubi Madara and Mindless Juubito one. So I don't think you know what a retcon is ck


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

a retcon is everything you don't like that happened in the manga, and you feel so salty about it, so
you always come to me and state that kishi has changed those things that make you salty, and we should
treat it as it never existed.


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> a retcon is everything you don't like that happened in the manga, and you feel so salty about it, so
> you always come to me and state that kishi has changed those things that make you salty, and we should
> treat it as it never existed.



Pretty sure Hashirama strenght was a retcon, same for his God of Shinobi title.


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

I don't know why are you taking us from one point to another each freaking time. 

Tobirama was given the teleportation jutsu (FTG) since chapter 501 (or 502) when Minato stated that he has them.
He was given the ET since chapter like 490 or something when Kabuto stated that to Obito.

Kin and Gin appeared in chapter 525, which means after the information that Tobirama has ET and FTG, and even
when they got revived they knew about ET and it's Tobirama's jutsu, which also means Kishi was talking that in consideration. 

you're just being delusional, sorry, but that's how it is.


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## Veo (Sep 26, 2014)

I voted for Minato, but I actually think Tobirama is more threatening for an Uchiha, definitely. I mean both are stronger than Itachi, but I think Tobirama has a better array of techniques. These 3 are not far in the tier list anyway.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 26, 2014)

To beat Itachi one needs (1) to be highly perceptive in order to avoid his traps (2) have strong offense that will cause Itachi to sustain the use of susano'o and (3) have a great defensive move set

Tobirama is superior to Minato when it comes to battle analysis. He was shown to notice things Minato could not and also come up with strategies Minato did not think of. The fact that he created Kage bunshin will come in handy since one needs to be mindful of Itachi's genjutsu

While both man use hiraishin, Tobirama combination of hiraishin and Edo tensei  explosions affords him the ability to sustain an offensive blitz that would force Itachi to keep up susano'o. 

Finally, when it comes to defense , Minato is slightly superior. Minato has a habit of throwing his kunai around for defensive purposes while Tobirama marks one kunai and uses kage bunshin for mawashi goshun

Overall, Tobirama would be a tougher nut to crack because of his superior battle analytics and his superior ability to pressure Itachi


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

Veo said:


> I voted for Minato, but I actually think Tobirama is more threatening for an Uchiha, definitely. I mean both are stronger than Itachi, but I think Tobirama has a better array of techniques. These 3 are not far in the tier list anyway.



which means you voted in Tobirama's favour because the poll is asking which one of them itachi can beat. So, don't worry about that. 

this poll is so fucked up. :rofl


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> The author stated there are 1000 thousands, and even those in the studio, who have direct contact with Kishi understood it the same exact way.
> 
> As for your point, the Sound Village is not even from the 5 Great Nations. We know from the Fan Book that the military power for Iwa and Kumo are relatively the same. (Both have 4)
> 
> ...



All I remember is Minato's look of surprise when he realized Obito played him by attaching a gudoudama on his shoulder, and Tobirama arriving and saving the day like its just another day @ work. 
Tobirama's swap strategy on Juubito and his quick grasp of his vulberability to sage jutsu.

Minato did what, exactly ?


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> All I remember is Minato's look of surprise when he realized Obito played him by attaching a gudoudama on his shoulder, and Tobirama arriving and saving the day like its just another day @ work.
> Tobirama's swap strategy on Juubito and his quick grasp of his vulberability to sage jutsu.
> 
> Minato did what, exactly ?



- Not sure what does that suppose to prove honestly. 
Minato saved everyone asses, including Tobirama's in the barrier from Obito's 4 TBBs. 

- O.K? 
No one stated that he is not smart, even though Narudo still did it before Tobirama. 

- I dunno, maybe analysed the Gedu-damas better than Tobirama and made them useless completely? And those are the Gedu-damas of Madara who's superior to Obito? 

When Tobirama couldn't think of away to teleport the 4 TBBs, he asked Minato who answered that
they should teleport the entire Tree all at once instead?


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't know why are you taking us from one point to another each freaking time.
> 
> Tobirama was given the teleportation jutsu (FTG) since chapter 501 (or 502) when Minato stated that he has them.
> He was given the ET since chapter like 490 or something when Kabuto stated that to Obito.
> ...



I just telling you what a retcon is, and please, since you know what happened, tell me if Tobirama used ET or pretty much anything that was showed in the war?


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## Dominus (Sep 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> The author stated there are 1000 thousands, and even those in the studio, who have direct contact with Kishi understood it the same exact way.
> 
> As for your point, the Sound Village is not even from the 5 Great Nations. We know from the Fan Book that the military power for Iwa and Kumo are relatively the same. (Both have 4)



We only know that he fought those 50 shinobi and the ones that attacked Kakashi and Rin. 

You said that all of them are the same. That logic is still awful because there are other examples, the Third Raikage isn't 500 times stronger than Tobirama.



> I told you those 18 fodders are more or less around the same level as the fodders from the different villages, yes, I said that. But I also stated that Kin/Gin are different and they were the main threat.



And you have no proof that they were just like the others. You are simply saying that because you want to make Tobirama look worse. 



> But this thing did not happen only 1 time, but rather it was repeated and it was noticed that Kin/Gin are stronger than Tobirama. The same with Minato and A/B, they did not only have 1 fight, but they were fighting constantly. Sure, people don't give him credit for that for being what they called "feats Whores" (I don't know honestly if there is another term being used here )
> 
> but the fight happened nevertheless...
> we only have hints and statements from here and there, and I'm basing my opinion on them rather
> than pretending that they never existed. Sure, if we know what happened exactly things may have differed, but again, since it's the same for both Tobirama and Minato, I think that's fair enough...



Kinkaku and Ginkaku defeated Tobirama once by underhanded means and once with 18 other ninja. So we can't know if just the 2 of them can defeat him.



> O.K?
> Then why Tobirama said he will support all them, but the thing he noticed was supporting them *at the same time.*?
> 
> Unless it's different to teleport them all at the same time, and to teleport them all, but bit by bit.



Not sure what's your point here really, this doesn't prove in any way that Minato could teleport all of them without Kurama's help.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Not sure what does that suppose to prove honestly.
> Minato saved everyone asses, including Tobirama's in the barrier from Obito's 4 TBBs.
> 
> - O.K?
> ...



What it proves is that Minato was useless for the most part when Tobirama was around.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 26, 2014)

Well Itachi loses to both prime or not so it doesn't really matter lol.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What it proves is that Minato was useless for the most part when Tobirama was around.



He was far from useless however he simply took the back seat when Tobirama was around. You know this is what Tobirama was thinking the entire time...


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## Turrin (Sep 26, 2014)

He'd loose to both of them more often than not. As for which he'd have more difficulty with, that depends on Tobirama's Tensei.


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## Ashi (Sep 26, 2014)

One pat on Itachi is GG so he better use MS WISELY!


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## joshhookway (Sep 26, 2014)

Let's see:
Tobirama beat an Uchiha on the same level or even stronger than Itachi.

Minato lost to a 14 year uchiha kid with only one sharingan.


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## JuicyG (Sep 26, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Let's see:
> Tobirama beat an Uchiha on the same level or even stronger than Itachi.
> 
> Minato lost to a 14 year uchiha kid with only one sharingan.




When did Minato EVER lose to a uchiha besides Madara if that even counts ?


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## Ashi (Sep 26, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Let's see:
> Tobirama beat an Uchiha on the same level or even stronger than Itachi.
> 
> Minato lost to a 14 year uchiha kid with only one sharingan.



Tobi would've beaten Itachi too


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## lathia (Sep 26, 2014)

Yeah, Itachi will have a harder time against an opponent who has slower reflexes. Totally agree. When Itachi fans get desperate .


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## StickaStick (Sep 26, 2014)

He'd be fighting an up-hill battle against either of them, so does it really matter 

Edit: Although honestly on paper Tobirama is a better counter to Itachi's fighting style and arsenal, even if he might be < Minato generally.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 26, 2014)

lathia said:


> Yeah, Itachi will have a harder time against an opponent who has slower reflexes. Totally agree. When Itachi fans get desperate .



Reflexes won't make a difference in this fight. Itachi is not a speed demon like Ei


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## lathia (Sep 26, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Reflexes won't make a difference in this fight. Itachi is not a speed demon like Ei



Right. I'm sure slower reflexes and bigger suiton jutsu will pose a much greater threat against an ocular dependent user(s) .

Tobirama was hailed as the "fastest" shinobi of his era. The reason he could beat MS opponents is the same reason why Ei was able to do the same. Ask Sasuke when he awoke his MS .


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## Senjuclan (Sep 26, 2014)

lathia said:


> Right. I'm sure slower reflexes and bigger suiton jutsu will pose a much greater threat against an ocular dependent user(s) .
> 
> Tobirama was hailed as the "fastest" shinobi of his era. The reason he could beat MS opponents is the same reason why Ei was able to do the same. Ask Sasuke when he awoke his MS .



First, Tobirama has shown superior reflexes to Minato. Second, either of them has superior speed and reflexes to Itachi. Reflexes do not decide a fight when your opponent is inferior


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## Killacale85 (Sep 27, 2014)

He'd lose to both. FTG is really OP unless ur a jubbi jinchuriki.( or obito)


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