# Tobirama vs Jiraiya



## Luftwaffles (Jan 17, 2014)

Location: Forest of Death
Distance: 30 meters
Knowledge: Manga for Jiraiya, Current and generic Sage knowledge for Tobirama
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Base Jiraiya may only summon either Gamaken or Gamabunta, once he reaches SM fusion with Ma and Pa, he may not summon any other Boss summon.

Tobirama gets a Part 1 nerfed-Hashirama Edo Tensei.

Jiraiya starts in base and Tobirama has sensing activated. Who wins?


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## Ersa (Jan 17, 2014)

Waffle said:


> Location: Forest of Death
> Distance: 30 meters
> Knowledge: Manga for Jiraiya, Current and generic Sage knowledge for Tobirama
> Mindset: IC
> ...


Spite threads aren't allowed. 

Jiraiya stomps hard in base with city-sized Yomi Numa, if he enters Sage Mode he gets blitzed and one-shotted.


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## Bonly (Jan 17, 2014)

Unless Jiraiya goes to summon Ma+Pa for SM right off the bat I see him losing more times then not. Tobi can deal with with Jiraiya's Katons with his Suitons and Tobi can get out of harms way of most(if not all) of Jiraiya's attack by using Hiraishin. Now add in clones which can help with Goshun Mawashi and what not, Tobi's good reflexes+speed, his brother and Gojō Kibaku Fuda and Jiraiya should get overwhelmed eventually. I find it unlikely that he would be able to make it to SM if runs into Tobi while in base.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2014)

Why would you feel the need to nerf J-man? Tobirama is stronger than him to begin w/. Luckily for J-man the location itself is extremely beneficial to him as it offers him a myriad of places to hide while he enters SM. Though still his ability to achieves SM would come down to whether J-man is aware of Tobirama's ability to track him w/ chakra sensing; if he is than he can use Gamagakuru no Jutsu to prevent his chakra being tracked and escape from Tobirama achieving SM. If he doesn't and Tobirama finds him, J-man's chances of being able to achieve SM against someone as fasts and aggressive as Tobirama who can also pull out Edo Hashirama are pretty slim and without SM Jiraiya is completely outclassed.

So for the sake of argument and this not becoming onesided  I'll assume that Jiraiya does achieve SM. W/ SM J-man could probably keep up to a certain extent w/ Tobirama, but ultimately adding Hashirama (w/ Tandem Explosive Tags) in here still makes it so even SM J-man is going to be quickly overwhelmed


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 18, 2014)

Waffle said:


> *Jiraiya starts in base.*



There's your answer.

Tobirama can't win unless Jiraiya starts in SM.


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Jiraiya wins. 

He can use the Barrier as he did against Pain so he would know about anyone who enters it. If Tobirama does that, Jiraiaya would know right away about it, just like how Madara knew about Tobirama with his sensing when Tobirama teleported behind him. When that happened, he can either protect himself with his hair, or try to dodge the attack. 

Now, taking in consideration Jiraiaya's Yami Nami attack, and Tobirama's lack of feats for striking his 1 Kunai
and cover a huge area like Minato, Jman can actually sink those Kunais or the seals on the ground and thus trolling Tobirama. 

As for the Water jutsus that Tobirama has, it's useless against Jiraiya's Fire Release: Toad Oil Flame Bullet.
1- The jutsu is much bigger, that there is no way that Tobirama's weak water jutsus can do anything.
2- The jutsu has* OIL* in it, who's in his right mind think the water can be used to take that down? there is
this whole thing about density and stuff, the oil will always come on on top, and thus the fire with it. 

As for the ET, Tobirama will need to focus to control them, so he won't be able to fight and control them at
the same time, as we saw with Oro & Kabuto who are both better than him at that. Either way, Jiraiya in base
has 3 ways to deal with them IMO.

1- 


> Isolated from the outside world by a barrier, the space inside the Gourd Toad's stomach is far larger than the surface size of the Gourd Toad itself.



2- 

They will stuck or sink, thus they will be useless.

3- 

If Jiraiya did enter SM, then Tobirama's chance will get even worst. He will be outclassed in almost everything.


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## richard lewis (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> Jiraiya wins.
> 
> He can use the Barrier as he did against Pain so he would know about anyone who enters it. If Tobirama does that, Jiraiaya would know right away about it, just like how Madara knew about Tobirama with his sensing when Tobirama teleported behind him. When that happened, he can either protect himself with his hair, or try to dodge the attack.
> 
> ...



I agree with most of this except the part about the edo's, the edo once summoned can fight on it's own will. and I'm pretty sure that if summoned hashirama would opt to help his own brother over helping hashirama. With hashirama helping him tobirama stomps.


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> I agree with most of this except the part about the edo's, the edo once summoned can fight on it's own will. and I'm pretty sure that if summoned hashirama would opt to help his own brother over helping hashirama. With hashirama helping him tobirama stomps.



This Edo Hashirama from Tobirama's ET. So, he's actually extremely weak. 

Edo Hashirama was fodder enough to not be able to even overcome old Hiruzen's clone. Tobirama's ET is even more sucks than Oro's in part 1, therefore, Hashirama would be even more sucks  than how he was during part 1. 

If old Hiruzen's clone defeated Oro's Hashirama, I'm sure Jiraiya would stomp Tobirama's Hashirama who's even weaker.


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## richard lewis (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> This Edo Hashirama from Tobirama's ET. So, he's actually extremely weak.
> 
> Edo Hashirama was fodder enough to not be able to even overcome old Hiruzen's clone. Tobirama's ET is even more sucks than Oro's in part 1, therefore, Hashirama would be even more sucks  than how he was during part 1.
> 
> If old Hiruzen's clone defeated Oro's Hashirama, I'm sure Jiraiya would stomp Tobirama's Hashirama who's even weaker.



OP says hashirama gets part 1 edo feats!

thousand explosions obliterates jiraiya's boss summons, and makuton will be a bitch for him to deal with w/o it. Also jiriaya has no sealing jutsu so hashirama will just keep coming forever. Throw on top of that tobirama with FTG and it's wayyy to much for jiraiya to deal with. If he could enter SM he could probably take it with frog song but I just don't see him getting the chance.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 18, 2014)

Jiraiya sinks the forest, along with Tobirama.

He has no knowledge of Yomi Numa.


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## ARGUS (Jan 18, 2014)

Tobirama beats SM Jiraiya as of now due to FTG 
this nerfed Jiraiya gets stomped


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> OP says hashirama gets part 1 edo feats!
> 
> thousand explosions obliterates jiraiya's boss summons, and makuton will be a bitch for him to deal with w/o it. Also jiriaya has no sealing jutsu so hashirama will just keep coming forever. Throw on top of that tobirama with FTG and it's wayyy to much for jiraiya to deal with. If he could enter SM he could probably take it with frog song but I just don't see him getting the chance.



- Well, even his part 1 feats are still sucks honestly. U_U

1- He will need someone to hold the summons first, as what happen to obito. Otherwise, they
can escape easily, even Hiruzen's speed was more than enough to get to a safe place. 

2- Hashi's woods can all be burn down with the oil and fire jutsus. As for the sealing jutsu, as I put in may first post, Jiraiya can send Hashi to the barrier inside the frog, or use his Yami Nami. Since Hashirama in part 1 is not all that fast or impressive with dodging or speed, 

3- Tobirama want use FTG at the same time while using Hashirama to blow himself up. 
it's either he will use FTG to attack Jman, or the explosion jutsu, if he used them at the same time he would die as well. U_U


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 18, 2014)

Regarding doton: yomi numa, 

I don't think it would prove to be of much use here against Tobirama. The location and distance are gracious towards Jiraiya and his guerilla-esque fighting style, but that doesn't really help when Tobirama has shown the capability of sensing chakra miles away as well as being able to implement it in_ actual combat_  unlike most others. Like so many other shinobi can do, I don't doubt Tobirama would be able to sense the build up of chakra Jiraiya will have as he activates the jutsu, and react accordingly. 

Madara's words in the latest chapter would also suggest that, in their living primes, Tobirama was faster than him. His statement of "but there's a gulf in our skills _now_" implies that he's only now surpassed Tobirama in speed. It's worth noting that edo Madara, who is apparently weaker than the living incarnation was able to react to a cloaked Naruto. Obviously, shinobi now are probably a lot stronger than the shinobi of the old generation, but Hashirama, Tobirama, Madara and Izuna are obvious exceptions to that rule. 

Even discounting the possibility of Tobirama dodging it, he has multiple other methods. Like Minato, he's now adapted hiraishin so that it's usable with projectiles and can use it more or less exactly like him. He could probably just throw a kunai, and then warp there to avoid the jutsu. Alternatively, he can just have Hashirama cast mokuton hijutsu: jukai kōtan to mitigate it and provide a leverage for Tobirama to use.

The problem here is that I don't t think some of you understand how yomi numa works. Against a high tier opponent like Tobirama, it isn't a jutsu Jiraiya can use on the spot and seal Tobirama down; it's going to require an opening and an element of surprise, which he'll be hard pressed to find against someone as seasoned and perceptive as the Nidaime Hokage. If it was easy as slapping his hands down on the ground and instantly trapping his enemies, Jiraiya probably wouldn't have lost against Pain.

As for whether or not Tobirama can defeat Jiraiya, I probably think he could. I've already addressed yomi numa, and the rest of his base ninjutsu repertoire likely wouldn't do much good either. As a hailed master of suiton techniques and speedster, I doubt that katons would do much good against Tobirama. Likewise, ranjishigami likely wouldn't be able to catch him either.

His best bet here is to rely on summons and a rasengan to finish him off. But consider for a moment what sort of techniques Tobirama has at his disposal:

Hiraishin, which allows him to teleport to anything he touches.
A really big explosion jutsu he can use infinitely.
Realistically, how much good would summons do here? Assuming Tobirama doesn't use Hashirama to blow them up, he can use them as hiraishin hubs instead to evade any jutsu Jiraiya might try to fire off at him. They're probably more of a liability if anything, since Tobirama can destroy them more or less at his leisure and can use them to add onto the range of his teleportation.

Then consider Hashirama's presence, and their abilities to use clones. Part I edo Hashirama was pretty weak and likely miniscule in comparison to Jiraiya's power, but his mokuton is still a very useful terrain changer and can provide a good distraction. With all these clones as well, Tobirama has _more_ possible hiraishin targets to teleport to - especially given that he can use _at least_ three clones who can also use that jutsu to supplement the Hokage. They're weak, but clones are rarely actually used for direct fighting. 

Rasengan requires physical contact to actually land, and is really the only jutsu Jiraiya has that can put Tobirama down here. Or at least, efficiently do so. Tobirama is cunning and shrewd, and is more than likely able to notice and exploit this. He's far more intelligent, and his repertoire allows for far more tricks than Jiraiya does and the Sannin would probably have an extremely difficult time landing the attack on him.

What's also being neglected here is the fact that rasengan also gives Tobirama a huge potential opening. Take Sasuke and Naruto's enton enhanced rasenshuriken against Obito. Replace them with the slower Jiraiya. Then take away Minato and put Tobirama in his stead, and finally place Hashirama where Obito is. Except this time, instead of getting blown away, Hashirama instead explodes and incinerates Jiraiya.


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## richard lewis (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> - Well, even his part 1 feats are still sucks honestly. U_U
> 
> 1- He will need someone to hold the summons first, as what happen to obito. Otherwise, they
> can escape easily, even Hiruzen's speed was more than enough to get to a safe place.
> ...



I dont recall hiruzen ever getting to a "safe place" in their fight. he was pretty much constantly getting smacked around until he activated shiki fujin.

Anyway bringer of darkness can blind jiriaya and his summons, jiriaya can probably counter this with his detection barrier but his summons can't. and even if they could the genjutsu should buy tobirama a few seconds to toss his kunai at jiraiya and then have a clone jump to him with hashirama and detonate thousand explosions similar to how to birama sent obito's BD back at him.

Eh hashirama was and his bro where stomping hiruzen in CQC "who has a 5 in taijutsu BTW" up until enma came out. I'd say he's still solid elite jounin lvl he was just as if not more impressive than the likes of kabuto, kakashi, and zabuza back in part 1. I don't see jiriya being able to transform high lvl ninja at close range and even if he could if tobirama marks hashirama "which im sure he would" he can suprise blitz jiraiya at any moment if he was to get to close to hashirama so using such a jutsu would be dangerous for him. If jiraiya was to trap hashirama with yomi numi or with a toad barrier as long as tobirama has him marked he just places an FTG seal on the ground, jumps to hashirama and then taakes them both back to the seal he placed.

btw hashirama's makuton was quick enough to grab hiruzen in mid air b4 he could use his summoning 5 5 and It's still pretty massive b/c hiruzen is the size of an ant in comparison.


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 18, 2014)

1 word: Hiraishingiri. Jiraiya won't have time to use Hari Jizo to protect him. Tobirama wins this low diff.


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## Rob (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm not understanding here.... 

Tobirama loses to Base Jiraiya.... but beats SM Jiraiya? 


wut :sanji


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## Kai (Jan 18, 2014)

What's the point of using Yomi Numa against an S/T user?


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Kai said:


> What's the point of using Yomi Numa against an S/T user?



If his marks were on the ground, and Yomi Numa make those marking sink, will Tobirama be
able to teleport to anywhere else?


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## Kai (Jan 18, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



As per latest chapter, Tobirama can teleport through his kunai. A ground level jutsu won't be able to stop him from escaping.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 18, 2014)

What's Yomi Numa's best feats? Partially sinking a brainless Gian snake? 

Tobirama wins this. I don't feel like explaining why.


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Kai said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> As per latest chapter, Tobirama can teleport through his kunai. A ground level jutsu won't be able to stop him from escaping.



But, Tobirama use that Kunai with his hand, so will be only above the ground for a second or so, then where is he planing to go? He does not separating Kunais, or a lot of them around the failed, no?


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## Mercurial (Jan 18, 2014)

Jiraiya has worse reflexes than a granny, fight against an Hiraishin user and one with the skill and smartness of Tobirama is simply impossible for him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> But, Tobirama use that Kunai with his hand, so will be only above the ground for a second or so, then where is he planing to go? He does not separating Kunais, or a lot of them around the failed, no?



Nothing says Tobirama can't mark other areas, or that he can't throw his marked kunai to a safe location then warp to it.

Tobirama showed that it is possible to mark _anything_, so why can't he mark anything and warp to it?


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nothing says Tobirama can't mark other areas, or that he can't throw his marked kunai to a safe location then warp to it.
> 
> Tobirama showed that it is possible to mark _anything_, so why can't he mark anything and warp to it?



-I thought people use feats.  

- the problem is not marking, but the location, the underworld swamp is just so huge. U_U
Also, regardless of dodging Jiraiya's attack, Jiraiya is just more powerful than Tobirama, how is
he going to take him down?


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm not seeing why it's hard to believe Tobirama can't mark other areas. He's marked Minato before, and the only difference between their versions seems to be that Minato has just made it so he uses kunai along with it whereas Tobirama just relies on his hands to mark stuff. 

I'd like you to address my post also, Elia. I talked about doton: yomi numa quite a lot, and you've just been saying the same thing again and again after that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> -I thought people use feats.
> 
> - the problem is not marking, but the location, the underworld swamp is just so huge. U_U
> Also, regardless of dodging Jiraiya's attack, Jiraiya is just more powerful than Tobirama, how is
> he going to take him down?



- Tobirama did tag a kunai, did he not? He also managed to tag Minato's coat, right?

- What would Minato do in that situation?

How is Jiraiya more powerful than Tobirama? Hiraishin really helps Tobirama out, especially coupled with Tobirama's speed and other jutsu. Lets not forget that he's got the held back Hashirama that he can make explode.


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

> =Atlantic Storm;49546710]Regarding doton: yomi numa,
> 
> I don't think it would prove to be of much use here against Tobirama. The location and distance are gracious towards Jiraiya and his guerilla-esque fighting style, but that doesn't really help when Tobirama has shown the capability of sensing chakra miles away as well as being able to implement it in_ actual combat_  unlike most others. Like so many other shinobi can do, I don't doubt Tobirama would be able to sense the build up of chakra Jiraiya will have as he activates the jutsu, and react accordingly.



Even if he sensed the build up chakra, how would he know what's coming next? 


> Madara's words in the latest chapter would also suggest that, in their living primes, Tobirama was faster than him. His statement of "but there's a gulf in our skills _now_" implies that he's only now surpassed Tobirama in speed. It's worth noting that edo Madara, who is apparently weaker than the living incarnation was able to react to a cloaked Naruto. Obviously, shinobi now are probably a lot stronger than the shinobi of the old generation, but Hashirama, Tobirama, Madara and Izuna are obvious exceptions to that rule.



1- Madara meant that Tobirama is the fastest during his area. Madara is still not faster than
Tobirama, and he did not meant that he became faster, or else who would talk about speed,
not skills. 

2- The Gap between BM Naruto and Tobirama IS enormous. Also, I really don't like when people
act as if every move for Naruto in his KCM and/or BM means he was using his full speed. 
When Naruto use his speed Kishi does point out that, like here, and here.


> Even discounting the possibility of Tobirama dodging it, he has multiple other methods. Like Minato, he's now adapted hiraishin so that it's usable with projectiles and can use it more or less exactly like him. He could probably just throw a kunai, and then warp there to avoid the jutsu. Alternatively, he can just have Hashirama cast mokuton hijutsu: jukai kōtan to mitigate it and provide a leverage for Tobirama to use.



Although it's true that Tobirama used a Kunai, but
1- in the last chapter it helped him to dodge madara and go above him.
2- He has no strike feats, but lets assume he can throw it far enough, he still has only one.
So, Jiraiya would know about it. 

Also, he would have to attack sooner or later, and won't just dodge all the time. 


> The problem here is that I don't t think some of you understand how yomi numa works. Against a high tier opponent like Tobirama, it isn't a jutsu Jiraiya can use on the spot and seal Tobirama down; it's going to require an opening and an element of surprise, which he'll be hard pressed to find against someone as seasoned and perceptive as the Nidaime Hokage. If it was easy as slapping his hands down on the ground and instantly trapping his enemies, Jiraiya probably wouldn't have lost against Pain.


1- Jiraiya was against Pain inside a building. 
2- he did a small one of it and it did work against Pain even though the Rinnegan can see the chakra as well. 


> As for whether or not Tobirama can defeat Jiraiya, I probably think he could. I've already addressed yomi numa, and the rest of his base ninjutsu repertoire likely wouldn't do much good either. As a hailed master of suiton techniques and speedster, I doubt that katons would do much good against Tobirama. Likewise, ranjishigami likely wouldn't be able to catch him either.



So, you think Tobirama's weak water jutsu can do much against this? 
 small one of it and it did work against Pain
Please, remember that thing has OIL in it. U_U
Also, so how big that thing is! If tobirama has marks in a huge area (which he does not) again
he only can dodge, but to how long? 


> His best bet here is to rely on summons and a rasengan to finish him off. But consider for a moment what sort of techniques Tobirama has at his disposal:
> 
> Hiraishin, which allows him to teleport to anything he touches.
> A really big explosion jutsu he can use infinitely.



Even Hiruzen was able to go to safe Place, and Jiraiya is faster than him. To do that jutsu
he would need to pin Jiraiya down somehow. 


> Realistically, how much good would summons do here? Assuming Tobirama doesn't use Hashirama to blow them up, he can use them as hiraishin hubs instead to evade any jutsu Jiraiya might try to fire off at him. They're probably more of a liability if anything, since Tobirama can destroy them more or less at his leisure and can use them to add onto the range of his teleportation.


What? 
Those frogs has even greater feats with elemental jutsus than Tobirama does. Also, they
have the sound jutsus, how can Tobirama get ride of this? Yes, he may mark them, but
what is he going to do?

It's not like his ET will recover in one second after he used the explosion tags! Even Oro's
more advance ET, it took Tobirama 2 chapters to recover. 


> Then consider Hashirama's presence, and their abilities to use clones. Part I edo Hashirama was pretty weak and likely miniscule in comparison to Jiraiya's power, but his mokuton is still a very useful terrain changer and can provide a good distraction. With all these clones as well, Tobirama has _more_ possible hiraishin targets to teleport to - especially given that he can use _at least_ three clones who can also use that jutsu to supplement the Hokage. They're weak, but clones are rarely actually used for direct fighting.



1- you talk about the explosion tags, then you mentioned Hashirama! If he want to use that
he will need to sacrifice Hashirama, he can have both at the same time! Hashi will take time
to regenerate! 

2- His wood can be burn down, also what do you mean "with all these clones"? Can't we
say the same to Jiraiya? He has clones as well, so does not that make him able to use more
swamps? 

3- Actually, in that link it was 2 clones, the other one was the real deal. U_U
As for the FTG, it's too slow when it's used by the clones. 


> Rasengan requires physical contact to actually land, and is really the only jutsu Jiraiya has that can put Tobirama down here. Or at least, efficiently do so. Tobirama is cunning and shrewd, and is more than likely able to notice and exploit this. He's far more intelligent, and his repertoire allows for far more tricks than Jiraiya does and the Sannin would probably have an extremely difficult time landing the attack on him.



1- Actually Jiraiya has tons of jutsus. 
2- He did land a lot of attacks on Pain even though they have far better abilities than Tobirama.
There shared vision is greater than what a sensor can do. 
There shared vision is greater than what a sensor can do. 


> What's also being neglected here is the fact that rasengan also gives Tobirama a huge potential opening. Take Sasuke and Naruto's enton enhanced rasenshuriken against Obito. Replace them with the slower Jiraiya. Then take away Minato and put Tobirama in his stead, and finally place Hashirama where Obito is. Except this time, instead of getting blown away, Hashirama instead explodes and incinerates Jiraiya



1- Again, when you want to put Hashirama, you should take in regard the explosion tags. 
not assuming that Tobirama will use it, then acting as if there is nothing will happen to Hashi
from it, or if he is going to regenerate immediately

2- You can't compare Minato to a clone. 
Tobirama already admitted that the clone's FTG is too slow.  



Atlantic Storm said:


> I'd like you to address my post also, Elia. I talked about doton: yomi numa quite a lot, and you've just been saying the same thing again and again after that.



Sorry, I did not read it at first because it seemed so huge for me. U_U



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - Tobirama did tag a kunai, did he not? He also managed to tag Minato's coat, right?
> 
> - What would Minato do in that situation?
> 
> How is Jiraiya more powerful than Tobirama? Hiraishin really helps Tobirama out, especially coupled with Tobirama's speed and other jutsu. Lets not forget that he's got the held back Hashirama that he can make explode.


- Yeah? 
- Minato can cover much more area than Tobirama from his feats like the area around the Juubi.

- How is he not? O,K the FTG is great and all, but he got his ass beaten, not only by madara, but
by Kin & Gin who are by feats much slower and less powerful than Jiraiya, so I don't see how, and why Jiraiya won't be able to defeat him! Especially that Tobirama's attack with his FTG give
you a window to react or defend yourself, and Jiraiya has the barrier to immediately know about
anything inside, and has his hair to protect himself from Tobirama's slash. 

Also, Jiraiya has better and greater chakra than Tobirama (since he couldn't learn SM) so if he
is only going to run away he will still lose eventually.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 18, 2014)

> 2- He did land a lot of attacks on Pain even though they have far better abilities than Tobirama.



The fact that you think this leads me to believe our opinions on Tobirama are far too different for this debate to come to any proper fruition. I'll probably respond to the rest of your post anyway, though.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> - Yeah?
> - Minato can cover much more area than Tobirama from his feats like the area around the Juubi.
> 
> - How is he not? O,K the FTG is great and all, but he got his ass beaten, not only by madara, but
> ...



- Why can't he teleport to things he tags then?

- Minato does that by throwing marked kunai around... why can't Tobirama do the same?

- Who said Kin and Gin beat Tobirama? Tobirama suggested that several highly skilled people were the ones who killed him. We don't even know the details of that battle. 
Though a not at full power Tobirama was still able to compete with a greater than base Minato during the war. That says a lot.

Tobirama could use his Suiton to slice Jiraiya's hair, the same thing that sliced Shinju branches. With well timed Hiraishin, he could take Jiraiya. Like he almost got Maara.

He only needs to worry about the swamp. Plus his main tool is Hiraishin, if he's got that he could beat Jiraiya for the same reason Minato could. Then there's the Edo Tensei he's got ITT that you've completely ignored.


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> The fact that you think this leads me to believe our opinions on Tobirama are far too different for this debate to come to any proper fruition. I'll probably respond to the rest of your post anyway, though.



lol, no. What I meant is that Tobirama's fan/s are talking as if he is some sort of untouchable
or something! 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - Why can't he teleport to things he tags then?
> 
> - Minato does that by throwing marked kunai around... why can't Tobirama do the same?
> 
> ...



1- When did I say that to begin with? 
2- Are you serious? 
I told you Minato cover more area in short time, and he has more Kunais, if Tobirama does that
or if he fight the same as Minato, then please bring manga scans, and don't ignore this as you always do, *MANGA SCANS.* 

3- Tsunade. 


> Though a not at full power Tobirama was still able to compete with a greater than base Minato during the war. That says a lot.



That does not say a lot since it's bullshit based on nothing. 

4- lol no, even simple swords cut throw the tree, so that's not such an impressive feat.

5- Base Minato is better than him stated by his own mouth, and Minato also has been portrayed greater than Tobirama, so saying Tobirama can do that because Minato can is rather nonsense.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> 1- When did I say that to begin with?
> 2- Are you serious?
> I told you Minato cover more area in short time, and he has more Kunais, if Tobirama does that
> or if he fight the same as Minato, then please bring manga scans, and don't ignore this as you always do, *MANGA SCANS.*
> ...



1. So we're in agreement. Tobirama could get out of the swamp using the same method Minato would use. 

2. Tobirama is a fast shinobi, why can't he do the same? His kunai are lighter and he can mark them by touching them, I don't see why he can't spread them around. Also how do you know that Minato has more kunai?
From what we've seen, Tobirama is basically a diversified Minato whose a bit slower, we are allowed to assume he would use his own jutsu the way someone else has copied it. In terms of fighting style, of course. Plus going by his comments (refer to Juubito being hit with Rasengan) and other comments, he fights similar to Minato. 

You've got to tell me why a Hiraishin user, won't fight like a Hiraishin user should. Should we assume Sharingan users like Itachi won't fight like other Sharingan users?

3. Tsunade said nothing about it.

Tobirama [SPOILERS=661 spoilers] and Madara [/SPOILER] said he isn't at full power, so the "bullshit" you refer to is the manga itself. 

4. Cutting the Shinju tree is an amazing feat, Minato (who cut the Hachibi's tentacle) didn't even attempt to do anything like that, so it is worth noting. Plus if this Suiton is the mainstream Suiton that Yahiko used, then it is more than capable. 
Unless you're willing to assert that Jiraiya's hair is harder to cut than the Shinju tree?

5. Don't neglect facts: Tobirama merely said Minato (KCM?) can teleport more people than himself and is faster. That is it, nothing about being better overall. What portrayal? Battle-wise it is hard to say, but it is slightly leaning towards Tobirama given he is not at full power whereas Minato has greater power than he did when he was alive. So yes, Tobirama keeping up with current Minato *is* something worth noting.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

> =Munboy Dracule O'Brian;49551678]1. So we're in agreement. Tobirama could get out of the swamp using the same method Minato would use.


Yes, depends if he did that first. U_U


> 2. Tobirama is a fast shinobi, why can't he do the same? His kunai are lighter and he can mark them by touching them, I don't see why he can't spread them around. Also how do you know that Minato has more kunai?


No feats. As for the Kunais because Tobirama only took Minato's idea currently, and he only
made one. Also, the manga never showed otherwise. 


> From what we've seen, Tobirama is basically a diversified Minato whose a bit slower, we are allowed to assume he would use his own jutsu the way someone else has copied it. In terms of fighting style, of course. Plus going by his comments (refer to Juubito being hit with Rasengan) and other comments, he fights similar to Minato.



1- By feats Minato is more diversified. 
2- By feats Minato is the faster one. 


> You've got to tell me why a Hiraishin user, won't fight like a Hiraishin user should. Should we assume Sharingan users like Itachi won't fight like other Sharingan users?


Again, Minato has more Kunais, and he attack immediately, unlike Tobirama. We just saw that!
and Jiraiya has a barrier to tell him about any thing inside it! So why he won't be able t protect himself? 


> 3. Tsunade said nothing about it.


You read another manga then. Reared the chapter about Kin & gin. she clearly said they
made him almost dead. 


> Tobirama [SPOILERS=661 spoilers] and Madara [/SPOILER] said he isn't at full power, so the "bullshit" you refer to is the manga itself.


So? He is almost at full power, what does that have to do with Minato? 
who by the way just lost almost all of his nenjutsu and sealing jutsu? 


> 4. Cutting the Shinju tree is an amazing feat, Minato (who cut the Hachibi's tentacle) didn't even attempt to do anything like that, so it is worth noting. Plus if this Suiton is the mainstream Suiton that Yahiko used, then it is more than capable.
> Unless you're willing to assert that Jiraiya's hair is harder to cut than the Shinju tree?


-How would he do that without Ninijutsu? 
- Actually by feats, yes. 
Jiraiya hair was strong enough to defeat a boss summon. 


> 5. Don't neglect facts: Tobirama merely said Minato (KCM?) can teleport more people than himself and is faster. That is it, nothing about being better overall. What portrayal? Battle-wise it is hard to say, but it is slightly leaning towards Tobirama given he is not at full power whereas Minato has greater power than he did when he was alive. So yes, Tobirama keeping up with current Minato *is* something worth noting.



I did not say that Tobirama said he's better overall, even though all Tobirama does is about FTG,
so since Minato is better than him in that and speed, it does say a lot actually. 

- lol, Yes, Minato without ninjutsu and sealing jutsus.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 18, 2014)

30 meters is not a large distance for a space time user, and someone hailed as a ninja faster than Madara and Hashirama that uses themselves as a benchmark against Minato.  

Jiraiya can attempt to hold distance using long ranged attacks, which he is very good at doing, however Tobirama's suitons will defeat his katons, and his yomi numa can be escaped via the kunai tagging and throwing.  I personally think that ninja, with their superior strength and extensive training, can throw a kunai incredibly far, and anyone of the famously strong bodies Senju clan even farther, so I'm not concerned about the tag being unable to escape the field of swamp.  That's ignoring that Tobirama could always warp to the kunai and then throw it again to move about and across the swamp terrain.

This leaves Jiraiya with summoning, and I have to say that Tobirama giant slicing suiton, as well as the water dragons - a jutsu whose size and power are dependent on the amount of chakra used to create them, and which at least the smaller variety Tobirama can fling as casually as shuriken, could readily handle large targets.  At least, for Gamaken.  Gamabunta might be another beast entirely, but given his size and the speed of Tobirama, and his ability to make clones and use hiraishin, I think it's certainly possible that he'll at least reach some part of Gamabunta, at which point he can do as Minato did to the Kyuubi, and warp him away somewhere.

If any of those things happen, and Tobirama gets close, Jiraiya, even if not taken with a hirashin or hiraisin-giri the likes that blitzed Izuna, who was again, the equal to Madara, that Jiraiya would be too hard pressed to maintain his ritual and need to put all his attention into fighting Tobirama with what he has.  That fight, with Jiraiya at less than his full power, and Tobirama's intelligence, hiraishin, superior speed and reflexes, will make it a short one, despite the defensive nature of Jiraiya's hair techniques and overall skill and experience as an exemplary shinobi.  Base Jiraiya, or even Sage Jiraiya is, simply put, not someone who could run against Madara, and by his own admission, his student Minato, who essentially shares Tobirama's speedster style.

The best thing I could see Jiraiya doing are immediately casting Yomi Numa across he field, and summoning Gamabunta to perform their toad oil/katon on top of it to try and make the battlefield a sinking and burning hell before Tobirama shunins and hiraishins to close to make that a viable tactic, and if he pulls that off I can certainly think he can win, but otherwise he really needs Sage Mode to keep up with the level of the past legends.

As you might have noticed, I excluded a number of conditions in this match that were favorable to Tobirama, such as the artificial limitations on his summons, and having his edo brother.  The prior didn't concern me, for as I see it, Jiraiya isn't going to have time to perform multiple summons before Tobirama is on top of him, and the latter of which would open up too many attacks and defences, and an entire set of Edo Tensei tactics like the infinite exploding tags jutsu and suicide tagging that Tobirama developed around the jutsu.  Even Hashirama's Mokuton tree he used against Hiruzen would be more than sufficient to defend against the toad oil combo, and grow a base in the swamp to avoid being drug to the bottom, and that wouldn't even make the match worth explaining.  Judging by the number of posters who said they couldn't be bothered, I don't seem to be alone in that sentiment.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

Tobirama absolutely dominates Jirayia. FTG level 2 just straight blitzes and ends him. Base Jirayia is around the speed if not slower the Tsuande so he does horribly.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama absolutely dominates Jirayia. FTG level 2 just straight blitzes and ends him. Base Jirayia is around the speed if not slower the Tsuande so he does horribly.



Jiraiya is slower than Tsunade or around her speed? 
yeah, right.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> Jiraiya is slower than Tsunade or around her speed?
> yeah, right.



Base Jirayia speed feats ?


----------



## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Base Jirayia speed feats ?



I won't go search all the manga to bring you his speed, you can do that by yourself.

but, as a start 

Jiraiya's speed = 4,5.
Tsunade's speed = 3,5.

and just so you don't start with "DB is garbage blah blah blah", I don't care. U_U


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Base Jirayia speed feats ?



*Since he can beat all of the Akatsuki, that in turn means he can easily dodge and react to...*

_Mangekyō Obito
The Six Paths of Pain
Sick Itachi
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu_

*...simultaneously.*


----------



## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> I won't go search all the manga to bring you his speed, you can do that by yourself.
> 
> but, as a start
> 
> ...



Shikamaru - 2.5
Kakuzu - 4.0
Yet Shikamaru dodged a point blank assault.

Kisame - 4
V1 Bee- 5+
Yet Kisame blocked a frontal linear shunshin no problem.

Hidan - 3.5
Kakashi- 4.5 + Sharinagn Pre Cog
Yet Hidan reacted just fine.

Tsunade - 3.5
Shizune - 4
Oro- 4.5
Yet she blitzed both of them.

Btw, 3.5 Tsunade is not War Arc Tsunade so it can't be used.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 18, 2014)

Jdawg wins this if he can activate SM which he can.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> No feats. As for the Kunais because Tobirama only took Minato's idea currently, and he only
> made one. Also, the manga never showed otherwise.



How do you know he took Minato's idea and didn't think to tag his own kunai when he invented the jutsu?



> 1- By feats Minato is more diversified.
> 2- By feats Minato is the faster one.



We've seen just Hiraishin and Rasengan. Tobirama has shown sensing, Hiraishin _and_ Suiton Ninjutsu. Also there are jutsu such as Edo Tensei.


> Again, Minato has more Kunais, and he attack immediately, unlike Tobirama. We just saw that!
> and Jiraiya has a barrier to tell him about any thing inside it! So why he won't be able t protect himself?



How do you know he has more kunai? How do you now he cannot attack immediately? Perhaps not as fast as Minato, but jutsu like Hiraishingiri suggest he can attack quick.

So Hiraishin no longer becomes an option because of the barrier? By that logic Jiraiya>base Minato because Hiraishin is no longer an option due to the barrier.


> You read another manga then. Reared the chapter about Kin & gin. she clearly said they
> made him almost dead.



Tobirama said there were more shinobi than just two. 


> So? He is almost at full power, what does that have to do with Minato?
> who by the way just lost almost all of his nenjutsu and sealing jutsu?
> -How would he do that without Ninijutsu?
> - Actually by feats, yes.
> Jiraiya hair was strong enough to defeat a boss summon.



Because if he can perform on par with an enhanced Minato, it says a lot about his skills, given that Tobirama isn't at full power.
What Ninjutsu? We know he lacks sealing jutsu, but he still has Rasengan the only Ninjutsu he seems to use other than Hiraishin.

That doesn't answer the question: are you telling me Jiraiya's hair is harder to cut than the Shinju branches?



> I did not say that Tobirama said he's better overall, even though all Tobirama does is about FTG,
> so since Minato is better than him in that and speed, it does say a lot actually.
> 
> - lol, Yes, Minato without ninjutsu and sealing jutsus.



You said Tobirama said Minato is better than him without specifying in what aspects. Tobirama obviously has more than FTG, we've seen it in the manga.

It just says base Minato moves faster than Tobirama, overall abilities, it does not say too much. 

Ninjutsu is your speculation, sealing jutsu is the only point you have. Though we know next to nothing about Tobirama's full capabilities. Yet given his known abilities and the fact he's able to fight alongside the likes of a super enhanced Minato, Naruto and Sasuke... it is safe to say he can take Jiraiya.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

> =Munboy Dracule O'Brian;49552642]How do you know he took Minato's idea and didn't think to tag his own kunai when he invented the jutsu?


Because the manga showed it this way? 


> We've seen just Hiraishin and Rasengan. Tobirama has shown sensing, Hiraishin _and_ Suiton Ninjutsu. Also there are jutsu such as Edo Tensei.


Really? 
Minato's jutsus:
1- Chakra Transfer Technique 
2- Contract Seal 
3-Dead Demon Consuming Seal 
4-Eight Trigrams Sealing Style 
5-Flying Thunder God Technique 
6-Four Red Yang Formation
7-Four Symbols Seal 
8-Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique 
9-Rasengan 
10-Shadow Clone Technique 
11-Space–Time Barrier 
12-Spiralling Flash Super Round Dance Howl Participate Formula 
13-Summoning Technique (Shinigami, Toads) 
14-Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique 

Note: We know he has elemental jutsus, sealing jutsus as well. we also can say he has 
FTG giri sense it's only FTG with a slash, which he did twice. U_U
and we also know he can use some barriers because he wanted to do so against Kurama.

Tobirama's:-
1-Chakra Sensing Technique 
2-Flying Thunder God Slash
3-Four Red Yang Formation
4-Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique
5-Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags  
6-Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation 
7-Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique 
8-Water Release: Water Formation Wall 
9-Water Release: Water Severing Wave 
10-Shadow Clone Technique 
11-Flying Thunder God Technique 

As you can see, even if we took his jutsus in Kurama's mode he still has more jutsus than
Tobirama and more powerful as well. U_U


> How do you know he has more kunai? How do you now he cannot attack immediately? Perhaps not as fast as Minato, but jutsu like Hiraishingiri suggest he can attack quick.



1- I already told you that what the manga shows, if you have a scan shows otherwise, please
bring it, let us see with you. 

2- I know because that's what happen? I'm not sure why are you asking obvious questions honestly, but anyways! Here



> So Hiraishin no longer becomes an option because of the barrier? By that logic Jiraiya>base Minato because Hiraishin is no longer an option due to the barrier.


Seriously? 
I told you that there is a different in speed. Also, Jiraiya made it clear in his statements about
Minato! 


> Tobirama said there were more shinobi than just two.


that was in the second round. 


> Because if he can perform on par with an enhanced Minato, it says a lot about his skills, given that Tobirama isn't at full power.


So, you think Gai, kakashi, and B...etc
are on par with BM Naruto because they preformed well with him? Oh great! 

Do you also think Tobirama is as strong as Hashirama because they preformed well together
as he stated? Pleas don't be shy, if you think Tobirama is on par with Hashi because of that go
a head and say it! 


> What Ninjutsu? We know he lacks sealing jutsu, but he still has Rasengan the only Ninjutsu he seems to use other than Hiraishin.


Because he use something more often that does not mean he does not have others!
Have you seen Kakashi use 1000 jutsu? 

reading comprehension 101. 


> That doesn't answer the question: are you telling me Jiraiya's hair is harder to cut than the Shinju branches?


Yes. Depending on the chakra he put in his hair. 



> You said Tobirama said Minato is better than him without specifying in what aspects. Tobirama obviously has more than FTG, we've seen it in the manga.



What does he have other than FTG? 
count with me

clones and 4 suns barrier = Minato has those as well. 

ET summoning = Minato has frogs summoning. 

Water jutsus = Minato has greater sealing jutsus + reasengan. 


> It just says base Minato moves faster than Tobirama, overall abilities, it does not say too much.


 When both characters rely on speed and that specific jutsu, then, yes it does. 

you might say Tobirama has more chakra, stronger body blah blah blah
but, A has greater chakra, body, and Taijutsu than Tobirama, did that help him against Minato?
No! Even with B with him. U_U 


> Ninjutsu is your speculation,


lol, give me a break please. 

"He is a shinobi with uncommon talent...with the talent to invent many jutsu in his own style "

Jiraiya:" Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind. He was overflowing with talent for jutsu and intelligence....He was socially popular...And well, he was quite a looker, just like me."

1
We don't even know what element does he have. 
are you going to tell me all of them are wrong, and YOU are right? :amazed


> sealing jutsu is the only point you have. Though we know next to nothing about Tobirama's full capabilities.



Well, Tobirama is done for as of now, and Minato is still fighting. Also, it's not like if kishi is
willing to show us Minato's full capabilities either, since he nerfed him that's badly, unlike
Tobirama who is almost at his full power with no nerfs! 


> Yet given his known abilities and the fact he's able to fight alongside the likes of a super enhanced Minato, Naruto and Sasuke... it is safe to say he can take Jiraiya.



- You can't tell me "unknown", because we are talking about what we know. Especially that
there is nothing to suggest that Tobirama has some thing else that's so powerful or something.

Finally, I don't bay this " fight alongside " I mean seriously you are using this? 
Do I need to explain that to you again?


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2014)

the logic that tobirama can only tag one kunai at a time is completely foolish beyond reason. 
Elia your dumb founding logic is like saying naruto has always used rasengan before FRS therefore he cannot use FRS in battle till he uses a rasengan. 
or itachi always started with genjutsu therefore he will always start that way. These are childish outright foolish ways of thinking. 
A ninja has a skill set and will fight with it depending on the enemy. Best example to nourish ur tardism. minato fought differently when facing Ei and obito the first time. Why ??? he knew Ei was ridiculously fast and adapted to it. 

only tagging one kunai as he showed against madara is because he only needed 1. in cqc you dont need more than 1 hirashin kunai. he got behind madara by just letting go of that 1 kunai 

also madara>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>obito in every form minato pawned him in. so Elia stop the nonesense 

*minato is faster no doubt!! we all agree. because he has better reactions and better physical speed. you cannot have faster hirashin. eg: sakura with hirashin based on her slow reactions and physical speed wont be avoiding Ei and probably wont b of any threat to him. 
*

I also agree neither minato or tobirama will pawn jiraiya on the first hit. 

However yomi numa GG etc is a pure joke. a technique so lame would have to be bigger than the distance tobirama can throw his kunai or create a clone. Lots of chakra to waste while tobirama would b wasting less. 

summons= hirashin hubs they arent hitting him. 

jiraiya needs SM till he gets there honestly he is dying


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Jan 19, 2014)

Jiraiya gets Hiraishingiri'd.

Seriously, nobody thinks Jiraiya > Minato, and yet Tobirama who has the same moveset... along with Suiton + Edo Tensei is gonna get stomped?

Tobirama blitzes.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2014)

> =Icegaze;49555334]the logic that tobirama can only tag one kunai at a time is completely foolish beyond reason.
> Elia your dumb founding logic is like saying naruto has always used rasengan before FRS therefore he cannot use FRS in battle till he uses a rasengan.


WTF? 
When did I say Tobirama can only tag one Kunai? Please quote that!
I don't even know what that example is for? Where did I say that he has to do his jutsus in order? 
----


> or itachi always started with genjutsu therefore he will always start that way. These are childish outright foolish ways of thinking.
> A ninja has a skill set and will fight with it depending on the enemy. Best example to nourish ur tardism. minato fought differently when facing Ei and obito the first time. Why ??? he knew Ei was ridiculously fast and adapted to it.


---- 


> only tagging one kunai as he showed against madara is because he only needed 1. in cqc you dont need more than 1 hirashin kunai. he got behind madara by just letting go of that 1 kunai



oh dear God! 


> also madara>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>obito in every form minato pawned him in. so Elia stop the nonesense


you stop your nonsense!
1- I don't even know what the hell does this have to do with what I said!
2- Madara stomped Tobirama within 2 seconds, so I'm not sure how is that relevant to Tobirama's power as well? 

If you want to response to me quote me so I can know what the hell are you talking about! 


> *minato is faster no doubt!! we all agree. because he has better reactions and better physical speed. you cannot have faster hirashin. eg: sakura with hirashin based on her slow reactions and physical speed wont be avoiding Ei and probably wont b of any threat to him.
> *



I DO NOT care about what people believe, I do CARE WHAT THE MANGA STATED.
you think FTG cannot be slower, that's your own! I don't give two shits! Tobirama himself said
otherwise, whether it makes sense to you or not, I could CARELESS. 

you said you can't have faster FTG, then PROVE it from the manga! This baseless statements
of yours means NOTHING without a proof, simple! 


> I also agree neither minato or tobirama will pawn jiraiya on the first hit.


Good. 


> However yomi numa GG etc is a pure joke. a technique so lame would have to be bigger than the distance tobirama can throw his kunai or create a clone. Lots of chakra to waste while tobirama would b wasting less.


Where did I say Yomi Numa GG? 
I only pointed out some things that Jiraiya could do! 


> summons= hirashin hubs they arent hitting him.


I don't even know what are you talking about exactly! 


> jiraiya needs SM till he gets there honestly he is dying


Or that what you think. U_U


----------



## Veracity (Jan 19, 2014)

@elia. As in a Kage Bunshin is naturally slower then the original ? This was specifically shown when Tobirama was getting beat by a casual Madara, but was confirmed by Madara to be faster then himself.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 19, 2014)

I don't think anybody legitimately thinks base Jiraiya can defeat Tobirama. He's nowhere near weak, but the manga has portrayed the edo tensei Hokages (save for Sarutobi) and Madara as being far above most normal shinobi in both feats and literary intent. You're more or less ignoring clear parallels and scaling if you genuinely believe base Jiraiya can defeat someone like Tobirama. Sage mode is arguable, but base?


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @elia. As in a Kage Bunshin is naturally slower then the original ? This was specifically shown when Tobirama was getting beat by a casual Madara, but was confirmed by Madara to be faster then himself.



The point is, if something CAN be slower, you can't say it CANNOT be slower!
or as they say what has be seen, it can't be unseen. (or something like that)



Atlantic Storm said:


> I don't think anybody legitimately thinks base Jiraiya can defeat Tobirama. He's nowhere near weak, but the manga has portrayed the edo tensei Hokages (save for Sarutobi) and Madara as being far above most normal shinobi in both feats and literary intent. You're more or less ignoring clear parallels and scaling if you genuinely believe base Jiraiya can defeat someone like Tobirama. Sage mode is arguable, but base?



Base Jiraiya was able to deal with 4tails Naruto even though he did not want to kill him. He did
not use his SM. I think it's funny that people always assume that Jiraiya for some reason can
never enter SM! 

IF tobirama has the portrayal, Jiraiya has also some of the best, it's not like if he does not have
but people just want to ignore them

*Spoiler*: __ 











There is also Minato's statement. I don't think Kishi portrayed Tobirama to b superior to
itachi and Kisame, no?


----------



## Veracity (Jan 19, 2014)

The technique is confirmed instantaneous Elia. It cannot be faster. Nobody can react to the Initial teleportation because it is impossible to do so. Even Juubito could not react to the teleportation rather the attack speed. And that's that. FTG is dependent on the users attack speed. Tobirama meant that a Kage Bunshin would strike slower, therefore making the FTG attack slower.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 19, 2014)

It could also mean that a kagebunshin would be slower at activating the FTG technique.  Either way it wouldn't effect the speed of the warp.


----------



## Kai (Jan 19, 2014)

By the way Elia, when Itachi says "If *we* fought, we might end up killing each other" he is referring to only himself and J-man, not him and Kisame vs. J-man. 

That's all.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2014)

Kai said:


> By the way Elia, when Itachi says "If *we* fought, we might end up killing each other" he is referring to only himself and J-man, not him and Kisame vs. J-man.
> 
> That's all.



That's the wrong translation, I put it because by mistake, also it helped to not have a headache
with itachi's fanboys. 

the Raw stated


but as you may know, if I put that, then the stupidity will start "Jiraiya solos the entire Akatsuki blah blah blah"  but, anyways, regardless of that, they stated that and they don't even know about his SM.
so, even if you want it that way, it's still a great hype despite how high people rank itachi, even though he's weaker than Jiraiya.


----------



## Kai (Jan 19, 2014)

Of course J-man can solo Akatsuki. It was confirmed he's even above Juubito  Only Base J-man though. In SM he wasn't Pain level.

Seriously though, I think you're misinterpreting what Tobirama stated in that scan and that the translation can be reworded. Just look at the scene - they were trying to position Naruto and Sasuke to be right in front of Obito and a clone wouldn't have been able to carry that out. They relied on the Hiraishin _Swap_ instead.


----------



## Ersa (Jan 19, 2014)

Well if you legitimately believe that statement to imply Base Jiraiya is stronger then Itachi and Kisame then also you have to accept that Base Jiraiya is stronger then the Akatsuki. Disregarding the fact that Itachi had ample reason to lie, that Kisame thought Itachi could have beaten Jiraiya alone after witnessing his power and that statement was not a statement of power levels (A > B) but rather a statement of a potential result such as how Pain stated that Jiraiya could've beaten them when a stronger SM Naruto lost to Pain under much better circumstances with near full knowledge. 

As for the thread, Tobirama wins. He's portrayed at a higher level, FTG hard counters most of Jiraiya's arsenal and opens him up for Suiton counterattacks/Explosive S/T tag jutsu. He's basically a slower Minato with vastly improved firepower so yeah considering Minato shits on Jiraiya, Tobirama does too but to a lesser extent.


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## Baroxio (Jan 19, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> I'm not understanding here....
> 
> Tobirama loses to Base Jiraiya.... but beats SM Jiraiya?
> 
> ...


It's somewhat of a running gag.

A few unreasonable people put a lot of stake in Itachi's quote about him and Jiraiya tying, and how no amount of backup would change that. This allows Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters to say that Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya on the basis of that statement alone, and completely ignore all of Itachi's far superior feats and hype.

However, if you take the quote to it's logical conclusion, the only "backup" Itachi could have been referring to is the rest of Akatsuki, so to take that statement as true would be to say that Base Jiraiya (since Itachi presumably didn't know about Sage Mode at the time) is greather than or equal to the combined forces of Itachi, Kisame, Nagato, MS Obito, Kakuzu, Deidara, Hidan, Konan, and Zetsu, simultaneously.

Hence the "Base Jiraiya" wank.

What people say about SM Jiraiya is normally what people honestly think about his chances.

And now that I've explained the joke to you, feel free to joke about Base Jiraiya being stronger than Itachi and the rest of Akatsuki as well!

Because we all know that the statement was bullshit.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 19, 2014)

After last chapter we can see tobirama can use FTG just like minato on top of everything else jman doesn't stand a Chance


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## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2014)

Elia your silly belief that FTG can be faster than another has already been answered. 
i will just throw salt to your wounds and say original>>clone hence why tobirama decided to swap with minato instead of a clone. based on the obvious fact that an original stats is in every way superior to a clones stats
3 hashi and 3 tobirama clones couldnt do shit to madara sitting down real hashi vs  EMS madara was actually a battle.   

minato is quicker than tobirama better reactions quicker strike speed after hirashin. however doesnt = minato hirashin faster than tobirama hirashin. What you can say is minato can strike quicker after hirashin therefore is harder to counter. *Even though he was countered by bee *

*Also note hirashin is massively hyped on this forum.* hirashin has been anticipated and countered on more than 1 occasion. juubito, killer bee and madara all at quite different levels. 

so i am not saying hirashin is an auto win for tobirama but it does make him quite difficult to beat also ensures that jiraiya isnt going into CQC with him cuz from there he wont survive.


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## Krippy (Jan 20, 2014)

Edo hashi kills both these jokers for the sake of quality.








Nah, tobirama blitzes him.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 20, 2014)

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Tobrama is among the top tier only behind the manga gods such as naruto, hashirama, madara and etc

Do not know why people sitll continue to quote Elia on anything related to Tobirama when hes obviously one of the biggest haters on this forum, if not the biggest. It's just like certain Minato and Itachi threads..you just ignore those certain people


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> That's the wrong translation, I put it because by mistake, also it helped to not have a headache
> with itachi's fanboys.
> 
> the Raw stated
> ...



Do you legitimately believe that base Jiraiya could take on both Itachi and Kisame?


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## luminaeus (Jan 20, 2014)

I want to root for Jiraiya.. but he'll never win against Tobirama.


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## Dominus (Jan 20, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Do you legitimately believe that base Jiraiya could take on both Itachi and Kisame?



Don't be surprised, when it comes to his favorite characters... 



Elia said:


> Not even in madara's best dream that he could defeat or take Kurama from Naruto.


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## Unilife (Jan 20, 2014)

If Jiraiya could outdo Tobirama's FTG, Jiraiya has a plausible chance of winning,

given that Jiraiya has a well-verse nature of fire techniques and SM, and Tobirama, who is accredited for his water techs and supposed sensing abilities.


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