# Konoha vs. US Army



## strongarm85 (Oct 11, 2007)

The Entire US army right down the lowest secretary shows up at Konoha to burn the place down. Can the Ninjas stop them? Or are Gun and M1-A2 Tanks and Apache Helecopters > ninjas.


----------



## Ulfgar (Oct 11, 2007)

1 airstrike does the job nicely. Nothing else required.


----------



## strongarm85 (Oct 11, 2007)

Army doesn't do airstrikes. Thats the Air Force, they're not involved. The only airborn vehicles the army supports are Helecopters and C-130s and have no jets or bombers to speak of.


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

Army gets most of Konoha, but the high Jounin kill them all.


----------



## Ulfgar (Oct 11, 2007)

They don't need aircraft all they need is 5-10 apaches to take down Konoha, and that counts as an airstrike, of sorts. The point is this is a massive rape, there is no way Konoha has any chance of winning.


----------



## Ulfgar (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> Army gets most of Konoha, but the high Jounin kill them all.



No Just no. Konoha cannot hurt any of the vehicles , The attack helicopters alone rape Konoha. You do know how big the Army is right?


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

They definitely do destroy the village, but the stronger ninjas will have their revenge. 

Think about it: A ninja runs away a good number of miles, and makes a Kage Bunshin. The KB henges into a Army soldier. It gets close enough and then lets its biggest katon go, deep frying hundreds of them in their tents. 

Rinse. Repeat.


----------



## strongarm85 (Oct 11, 2007)

Somewhere close to 300,000 I havn't checked the numbers in the last couple of years but its probably 300,000 + or - 50,000.


----------



## ez (Oct 11, 2007)

the ninjas surviving an assault on the village is very sketchy


----------



## Ulfgar (Oct 11, 2007)

strongarm85 said:


> Somewhere close to 300,000 I havn't checked the numbers in the last couple of years but its probably 300,000 + or - 50,000.



Its actually slightly over 1 million. and blue they may kill a couple of soldiers but they have these things called _vehicles_ and _aircraft_ which the ninjas will be unable to deal with.


----------



## strongarm85 (Oct 11, 2007)

slightly over 1 million is our COMBINED armed forced Army+Navy+Air Force+ Marines = just over 1 million.


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

ezxx said:


> the ninjas surviving an assault on the village is very sketchy



Why? Do you know how many dozens of miles out you can hear an armored column? Konoha would attack first, since they don't have to move a shitton of trucks, tanks, artillery and whatnot around. They'd kill a buncha buncha of soldiers (but there's like half a million in the army, so a buncha buncha wouldn't cut it) realize they can't stop the army, retreat, and do what they do best.

Not to mention it would take hours to raze Konoha, even if they were right outside.


----------



## Ulfgar (Oct 11, 2007)

strongarm85 said:


> slightly over 1 million is our COMBINED armed forced Army+Navy+Air Force+ Marines = just over 1 million.



NO you are wrong the Army alone is over 1 million .

edit: Blue the army has Attack helicopters which alone could Solo Konoha. And razeing Konoha won't take long Its called MLRS and Self propelled artillery combined with air support from attack helicopters. Konoha is not a city it is a small village. it will take maybe at most an hour.


----------



## Vance (Oct 11, 2007)

_Army wins this in a CURBSTOMP.

Seriously, one tank could decimate half of the village, adding in hundreds of more is rape._


----------



## Vandal Savage (Oct 11, 2007)

Konoha would be lucky to have a large number of people survive the initial attack. Army wins this.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Oct 11, 2007)

Army launches an artillery volley long before they're in hearing range.

Game over.

(Joke Battledome is down the hall, to the left)


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

You guys would make extremely shitty ninjas. :I


----------



## strongarm85 (Oct 11, 2007)

All National Guard, including Army National Guard, is seperate from the Army. They are a state militias. The US army and the feds don't even write their checks. They're paid by the state they live in. They don't even attend the same basic training. Whoever reported that on Wiki is mistaken.

The Reserves count though.


----------



## Ulfgar (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> You guys would make extremely shitty ninjas. :I



Who needs ninjas when you have nukes.


----------



## ez (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> Why? Do you know how many dozens of miles out you can hear an armored column? Konoha would attack first, since they don't have to move a shitton of trucks, tanks, artillery and whatnot around. They'd kill a buncha buncha of soldiers (but there's like half a million in the army, so a buncha buncha wouldn't cut it) realize they can't stop the army, retreat, and do what they do best.
> 
> Not to mention it would take hours to raze Konoha, even if they were right outside.



How can Konoha attack first, and why would that be a wise choice? Apache helicopters can cover more ground than any nin and are equipped with powerful enough weapons wipe out any advancing ninja crew. The army also has its fair share of snipers and reconnaissance units, if this is an actual invasion, they'd be well prepared for the enemy moving out first. Anyways, say the ninjas actually do get past snipers and the helicopters, how can they hope to take down hundreds of thousands of soldiers with weapons that can attack faster than the ninjas can move? Sure they make take out a few, but defeating the army or retreating is out of the question. They simply lack the numbers and technology. There's no fodder ninja that can bring down tanks, and I doubt even the highest class jounins can pierce a tank's armor...it would just be like lambs to the slaughter. 

Konoha would not take very long to overtake, remember Orochimaru's invasion? His force was hardly comparable to the one the Army would come with and konoha had their hands full(albeit circumstances were different) Even if ninjas were able to run away and hide, there's infrared devices, satellites, and other scoping devices to eventually find the ninjas. And it's not like, say if your strategy works for the first few tries, that the Army would just sit there and let things continue. 

They just don't have the man power and technology to compare against an entire army. A unit they might survive against.


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

Ulfgar said:


> Who needs ninjas when you have nukes.


They have nukes? That's something you neglected to mention.

Oh, and no, the Army does not have control over nuclear ordinance. That's strictly Air Force/SAC business. But if you say so. 
Army takes it with nukes.


----------



## Arishem (Oct 11, 2007)

The US Army has has 6315 Abrams tanks.


----------



## Aokiji (Oct 11, 2007)

bullets>ninjas. 8)


----------



## Flamefang (Oct 11, 2007)

Guns > Ninjas Can(n)on. But really, we got assault. Guns > kunai, assault rifles > guns. Or we can snipe a lot of them. Konohona stands no chance against the infantry alone, adding in machinery is complete rape. What has the average ninja displayed to counter a tank? Nothing. Katon won't do shit. Its either hellswamp, futon resengan or hell swamp. But we can snipe jiraya/naruto/sasuke/kakashi easily so it doesn't matter. Make it narutoverse, but it still doesn't change things except for garra and deidara factors...


----------



## Ulfgar (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> They have nukes? That's something you neglected to mention.
> 
> Oh, and no, the Army does not have control over nuclear ordinance. That's strictly Air Force/SAC business. But if you say so.
> Army takes it with nukes.



Never said that what I mean is why would we need ninjas since we have powerful weapons. the answer is we do not.


----------



## Arishem (Oct 11, 2007)

Doesn't the army have a tac nuke that can be launched from a howitzer?


----------



## Ulfgar (Oct 11, 2007)

Trick Shot said:


> Doesn't the army have a tac nuke that can be launched from a howitzer?



Was abandoned but yeah they did. they also had a thermonuclear rocket launcher.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Oct 11, 2007)

Don't need to worry about nuclear ordinance, conventional artillery rounds are more than sufficient to vaporize Konoha before any ninja even know what's going on.


----------



## Darklyre (Oct 11, 2007)

The Davy Crockett says hi.


----------



## Cerō2 (Oct 11, 2007)

U.S. Army in a butt rape.


----------



## Arishem (Oct 11, 2007)

The Davy Crockett was one of the most awesomely retarded weapons evar made.

Edits: Wow, three people posted at the same time.


----------



## Ulfgar (Oct 11, 2007)

EvilMoogle said:


> Don't need to worry about nuclear ordinance, conventional artillery rounds are more than sufficient to vaporize Konoha before any ninja even know what's going on.



Speak the truth, this one does.

^ So true


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

ezxx said:


> How can Konoha attack first, and why would that be a wise choice?


I told you why Konoha attacks first. It takes days to start moving a single armored division. The entire Army would move like a slug 50 miles across.
Meanwhile, ninjas can eat a bowl of ramen and run out any time they want. 
And it might not be a wise choice, but when a ninja village is faced with a large group of threatening personnel moving towards them, their first response is going to be to stop them before they can damage the village. 


> Apache helicopters can cover more ground than any nin and are equipped with powerful enough weapons wipe out any advancing ninja crew. The army also has its fair share of snipers and reconnaissance units, if this is an actual invasion, they'd be well prepared for the enemy moving out first. Anyways, say the ninjas actually do get past snipers and the helicopters, how can they hope to take down hundreds of thousands of soldiers with weapons that can attack faster than the ninjas can move? Sure they make take out a few, but defeating the army or retreating is out of the question. They simply lack the numbers and technology. There's no fodder ninja that can bring down tanks, and I doubt even the highest class jounins can pierce a tank's armor...it would just be like lambs to the slaughter.


This is going to take a bit of explaining. >_< 
Try to think of yourself as Konoha and ask what you'd do.
Apache helicopters are anti-vehicle tools - they're not designed to wipe out people on foot. Of course they can, but not in large numbers. The machine guns fire and the targets are going to seek cover. You can use the missiles on  buildings and thick forest, but your chances of killing more than one or two people firing blindly into cover like that is minimal.
Now if you were in Konoha, what would you do when the Apaches start lighting things up? Would you
1. get shot 
or
2. Run to cover, stick an explosive note to a kunai, and show the Apache what's up? Helicopters are extremely vulnerable to explosive ordinance from infantry. Which is why they stay over the horizon and hit tanks with missiles, not chase down people on foot and risk getting a stinger up their ass.
Moving on, Konoha is in a thick forest. The snipers would do great in the city, but in the forest, they'd get slaughtered. Especially with Hyuugas around.

Next, no, the army would NOT be prepared for the enemy to move first. Army doctrine states that the Air Force bombs the living shit out of the enemy so they can't possible mount an offensive before the Army even considers moving. Without the Air Force, the Army has very little first-strike capability or defense against attack. 

As for the guns - the "weapons that attack faster than the ninjas can move." - I think I explained this. Yeah, a ton of ninja would get shot. They'd take Konoha, eventually, after suffering hideous casualties.
But think of yourself as a jounin who has seen all his friends get shot. It's pretty obvious the enemy has devices that fire small kunai, to devestating effect. What do you do?
1. Run out and get shot
or!
2. Come up with a plan that doesn't involve exposing yourself to enemy fire?

With Kage Bunshin, any jounin has access to an infinite number of suicide bombers - suicide bombers with perfect disguises. Who can shoot 30 foot balls of fire more than capable of cooking a tank crew in it's cockpit, more than capable of killing hundreds of exposed soldiers. Not only that, but they're undetectable - if a soldier gets anywhere close to you, turn into a log and stay that way for as long as necessary.

When the Army soldiers don't know whether the dude next to them is their friend or death waiting to happen, do you really think they'll maintain discipline? They won't - they'll scatter, and it'll be rape time. The tanks (which, by the way, would be largely useless in the dense forest surrounding Konoha) require something like 600 GALLONS of fuel a day. Even assuming there's plenty of it around, you need crews to move the gas up and fuel the tanks. They're prime targets. Same story with all the vehicles. 



> Konoha would not take very long to overtake, remember Orochimaru's invasion? His force was hardly comparable to the one the Army would come with and konoha had their hands full(albeit circumstances were different)


Circumstances were VERY different. Ninja are used to the tricks they use on one another. The Army simply has no defense against henge'd kage bunshin or any of a number of other nasty things.
Yes, Konoha would probably fall, since the nin won't be expecting guns and they'll have half a million dudes shoved down their throats. But in the end, the ninja will win. 



> Even if ninjas were able to run away and hide, there's infrared devices, satellites, and other scoping devices to eventually find the ninjas. And it's not like, say if your strategy works for the first few tries, that the Army would just sit there and let things continue.


What satellites? Vandenberg AFB isn't in the Sand Country. 



> They just don't have the man power and technology to compare against an entire army. A unit they might survive against.


The army doesn't have the infrastructure or the support to survive against Konoha. Add the Air Force and they'd take this.

In fact, you know what? Tsunade's Katsuyu solos. The thing is fast enough to run right around behind the Army and just fucking run over all of them. One or two tank shells aren't going to hurt it, and when you have a 200000 ton slug bearing down on you at 100mph, you don't have time to hop in your tank and turn the turret. You don't have time to hop in your Apache (which would get acidified anyway) and bullets are lol against something that big.


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

EvilMoogle said:


> Don't need to worry about nuclear ordinance, conventional artillery rounds are more than sufficient to vaporize Konoha before any ninja even know what's going on.



That's not true. Artillery bombardment is completely insufficient to destroy an opposing force. It's for weakening their position, not destroying it.


----------



## strongarm85 (Oct 11, 2007)

Hmm, I think Tsunade's slug is no match for Napalm though... But yeah tanks would be almost useless in the dense forest, they'd have to stick to roads, which are narrow.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> That's not true. Artillery bombardment is completely insufficient to destroy an opposing force. It's for weakening their position, not destroying it.



Artillery's good against two things:

Destroying structures.
Killing Infantry.

Konoha's "army" is Infantry, so Artillery's ideally suited to handle it.

And if the entire Army's forces were deployed against Konoha (as stipulated in the first post) they'd have enough artillery forces to destroy the city and every living thing in it many many times over.

This is a curbstomp fight.  Reduce the attacking force to a sane level and there could be a fight.  But against the whole army it's a slaughter.


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

strongarm85 said:


> Hmm, I think Tsunade's slug is no match for Napalm though... But yeah tanks would be almost useless in the dense forest, they'd have to stick to roads, which are narrow.


What's going to drop napalm on it? And how are they going to hit it? It's not a stationary target, and it's not 1960's era Godzilla that just kinda lumbers in like it just woke up off a hangover. The thing is fast.



EvilMoogle said:


> Artillery's good against two things:
> 
> Destroying structures.
> Killing Infantry.
> ...


Killing exposed infantry. The ninjas are in no way exposed, and moreover (outside of Konoha) are as mobile as a mechanized division on open ground, or more so. They easily hit paved road speeds, on foot, through dense forest.

And yes, they would destroy the city many many times over. But parking enough artillery to just flatten a city in a few minutes within range without being detected in ludicrous. The bombardment would be light at first, and then intensify. Either that or they'd spend weeks moving it into position, and Konoha DOES have some idea of what's going on around it. This is in a forest, remember. For hundreds of miles around. 

It is not a curbstomp. Both sides will end up mostly destroyed.


----------



## Flamefang (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> I told you why Konoha attacks first. It takes days to start moving a single armored division. The entire Army would move like a slug 50 miles across.
> Meanwhile, ninjas can eat a bowl of ramen and run out any time they want.
> And it might not be a wise choice, but when a ninja village is faced with a large group of threatening personnel moving towards them, their first response is going to be to stop them before they can damage the village.
> 
> ...



1 Small groups are absolute garbage to an army, headshot anyone? They will get killed in 5, no 2 minutes right after they expose themselves. 

2 No ninja can throw a kunai that a heli can't dodge. And these are fuckin explosive tags, they are not real explosives, they cannot take down a heli. And the helis can just bombard the city's buildings with rockets.

3 How will konohona predict the army's advancement? Oh right, their non existent satellites and air support.

4 It doesn't matter what they come up with, its not enough.

5 Kakashi was said to be able to generate how many clones? 30? Kakshi is most likely the strongest jounin in konohona, im willing to say the average jounin (jounin are also the only ones who have the technique btw) could probably make 5-15 copies. Now, how many jounin do you think konohona has? No wear near enough. Nins don't turn themselves in to logs, they replace their body with a log. Its nothing more than a ninja quickly putting down a log and then running away. Where have katons killed anyone in the manga? When has a katon melted steel? For all we know, a katon might as well have the intensity of a bonfire. 

6 What? You think tanks are that badly made that they need constant refueling? Tanks are machines of war, thus they need to be efficient. If you see a unknown person, you shoot. If you see a guy doing strange stuff, you shoot. Theres nothing nin can do. 

7 How were the circumstances that different? In fact, the borders were even more secure at that time. All we need to do is snipe the border patrol. How will they know? Oh right, konohona has non existent satellites which TOTALLY prevented the sound from marching right in... Oh wait... 

8 Katsuaya is very slow. Where did you get 100 m/ph? And we have bazookas, tanks, helis, anti-tank missiles. If we have weaponry which can pierce tanks, a giant slug's skin is no probs. For all we know its skin is as durable as a regular slug's, meaning it is much less dense than a human's, let alone steel. The size just makes it an easier target. Or we can easily snipe tsunade


----------



## EvilMoogle (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> Killing exposed infantry. The ninjas are in no way exposed, and moreover (outside of Konoha) are as mobile as a mechanized division on open ground, or more so. They easily hit paved road speeds, on foot, through dense forest.



As per the opening post, the Army comes to attack Konoha.  So presumably the defending forces of Konoha start in the city.

Let's review a moment:


The "Paladin" M109A6.  If Wikipedia's to be trusted they can shoot 18.5 miles and the US has nearly 1000 of them.


The M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System.  Around 1300 of them were produced for NATO, I don't think it's unrealistic to think the US has half of them.  They've got a firing range of up to 186 miles depending on ammunition.


Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) Block II Missile.  Range of about 80 miles and fires a 500lb warhead.

So, Konoha's in their village plotting to attack the Atasuki or whatever they are doing.  They hear a whistling outside.  A few seconds later, several thousand missiles and explosive rounds start raining down on the city.  Less than a minute later volley two hits.  Then volley three, four, etc.

Even if we assume one or two Jounin manage to escape unscathed, do you honestly think that two Jounin Ninja can kill 400,000 trained soldiers?


----------



## ZE (Oct 11, 2007)

I can easily point something that would dissolve lots of tanks, tsunade summons the slug and tells her to spam acid everywhere. Can bullets kill the slug? Nop, the slug can survive like it was showed when manda was crushing her. Other thing, gamabunta and jiraiya´s katon>bullets or tank bullets. For example, Deidara was someone closer to be an harrier, it can fly, fire bombs and it has C4, but still it would have problems destroying konoha, just like it had problems destroying the sand village. With that said I still thing konoha loses but with the summons the ninjas can cause massive damage.


----------



## Haze is Dreamin' (Oct 11, 2007)

Army wins this easily. Why? Because the ninjas cannot out manuever a bullet. This has even been said by Kishi.


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

Flamefang said:


> 1 Small groups are absolute garbage to an army, headshot anyone? They will get killed in 5, no 2 minutes right after they expose themselves.


Why are they exposing themselves? 



> 2 No ninja can throw a kunai that a heli can't dodge. And these are fuckin explosive tags, they are not real explosives, they cannot take down a heli. And the helis can just bombard the city's buildings with rockets.


A helicopter dodge something? 
And those are real honest to goodness fucking explosives, you bet your boots. More than one person has had the living shit blown out of them by a tag. 



> 3 How will konohona predict the army's advancement? Oh right, their non existent satellites and air support.


Hyuugas?
Henge'd ninja/kage bunshin?
Sandaime's crystal ball? (Toomegane no Jutsu, to be precise)
Just fucking go look? The army is going to be moving in a column dozens of miles wide.




> 4 It doesn't matter what they come up with, its not enough.


Please don't respond to this post, I don't want to have to argue against this kind of "logic" any more. =___=


> 5 Kakashi was said to be able to generate how many clones? 30? Kakshi is most likely the strongest jounin in konohona, im willing to say the average jounin (jounin are also the only ones who have the technique btw) could probably make 5-15 copies.


 Naruto can generate 2000 on the fly, and he's not even a jounin. 


> Where have katons killed anyone in the manga? When has a katon melted steel? For all we know, a katon might as well have the intensity of a bonfire.


Dude. It's a ball of fire. It burns. Ninja are a lot more durable than humans from our world, and several have been killed or disabled by katons (the chuunin exam stadium, Naruto at VotE, etc)


> 6 What? You think tanks are that badly made that they need constant refueling? Tanks are machines of war, thus they need to be efficient. If you see a unknown person, you shoot. If you see a guy doing strange stuff, you shoot. Theres nothing nin can do.


o_O
What?
Dude, an M1A1 Abrams tank weighs 50 fucking tons. Of course it needs refueling. Every few hours.



> 8 Katsuaya is very slow. Where did you get 100 m/ph?


Re-read Sannin battle plz.



> And we have bazookas, tanks, helis, anti-tank missiles. If we have weaponry which can pierce tanks, a giant slug's skin is no probs. For all we know its skin is as durable as a regular slug's, meaning it is much less dense than a human's, let alone steel. The size just makes it an easier target. Or we can easily snipe tsunade


Handheld rockets are not designed to destroy something as big as Katsuyu. They're designed to put small holes in armored vehicles and kill the crews inside or destroy its engine. It would be as if someone fired a pin at you. It would hurt, but not much more.
Katsuyu is the size of a building. For that, the US military has 2000lb bombs. 

The Army does not.
Tanks and helicopters would be quite worthless - this isn't some monster movie, where they all line up in cute little rows waiting for the enemy to pop out right where they expect it. They're all destroyed before the engines even turn over.



EvilMoogle said:


> As per the opening post, the Army comes to attack Konoha.  So presumably the defending forces of Konoha start in the city.
> 
> So, Konoha's in their village plotting to attack the Atasuki or whatever they are doing.  They hear a whistling outside.  A few seconds later, several thousand missiles and explosive rounds start raining down on the city.  Less than a minute later volley two hits.  Then volley three, four, etc.
> 
> Even if we assume one or two Jounin manage to escape unscathed, do you honestly think that two Jounin Ninja can kill 400,000 trained soldiers?


And all these artillery batteries get their targeting information from... what, exactly? 
It won't be anywhere near accurate until dozens of ranging shots have been fired. A certain number will be advanced enough to share their targeting data electronically, but most will have to calibrate manually.


----------



## Taellon (Oct 11, 2007)

Tsunade flicks the tanks away. Konoha wins.


----------



## Flamefang (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> Why are they exposing themselves?
> 
> 
> A helicopter dodge something?
> ...



1 Has it ever penetrated real honest to goodnes fucking military grade steel? I shit not. And it never will.

2 Huh? Huygas can see more than 1 km? Where!?
Henged ninjas know someone is invading in the first place?
And this is a perma jitsu which is always active and does not need to be done?
Fucking look a few miles away and not get shot? I shit not, again

3 Proof of any ninja surviving a head shot? What can their little plan do besides annoy the army? 

4 Are you on crack dude? Are you comparing naruto's chakara and that of a regular juoning when it was ACTUALY SAID IN THE MANGA THAT KAKASHI CAN'T MAKE ANYWHERE NEAR THE AMOUNT OF CLONES NARUTO CAN?!?!? And, where in shipoden has naruto made 2000 clones? Huh? Pulling it out of your arse? 

5 And ninjas are more durable becaaaaauseeee... Proof of the attacks being as powerful as they seem? Proof of any non filler character being severely injured/killed by a katon? For all we know the katon can be 50 degrees.

6 And where are you getting the numbers of refualing from? From your ass again? This is a military vehicle, you don't see guys running around and refelling their tanks on the battlefield do you? 

7 Proof of it going 100 m/ph pl0x, kthbie  

8 Someone's post of mobile lock-on missiles/that mini-nuke launcher thing. Or headshot to tsunade, since, you know, she is just standing on top of the thing

9 No, its not a monster movie where they are all lined up for the monster to tank down nicely. These things are firing. Before tsunade says "wtf is tha" she gets a headshot, bie katsuya. 

10 On board maneuvering systems? Well, a better question would be "How the fuck does the leaf know about the invasion"? For all we can speculate, the army could just waltz in and every nin would be like wtf, followed by a shot to the head and then raping of their women



Taellon said:


> Tsunade gets a cannon up her arse. Konoha weeps from the pain inside their arse that the army is putting in. In other words, its anal time


 Fixed for jo


----------



## EvilMoogle (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> And all these artillery batteries get their targeting information from... what, exactly?
> It won't be anywhere near accurate until dozens of ranging shots have been fired. A certain number will be advanced enough to share their targeting data electronically, but most will have to calibrate manually.



Actually all of the units I specified above have interlinked targeting.  Assuming they know where Konoha is (which is inferred by the fact that they're attacking Konoha) they can share targeting data and fire to blanket the city.

This isn't WWII era artillery, they're not going to "miss" a city.  And there's enough redundant shooting that even if there's a small degree of error in the first shot it would amount to nothing more than statistical noise.

Unless I missed the chapter where the Jounin hang out in the Konoha-fortified-underground-bunker....


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

So basically what you're saying is the Army spawns with all it's artillery in range, in place, and ready to fire? Because moving 4000 artillery pieces through dense forest isn't gonna happen. 

And if so, can I start all the ninja outside Konoha?


----------



## Flamefang (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> So basically what you're saying is the Army spawns with all it's artillery in range, in place, and ready to fire? Because moving 4000 artillery pieces through dense forest isn't gonna happen.
> 
> And if so, can I start all the ninja outside Konoha?



Yes and no. Unless stated otherwise by the OP. Leaf has no prior knowledge to the U.S army, they are sitting ducks. When they hit though, they will hit hard and fast (the army i mean)


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

That's a _little_ unfair. 

But whatever, I guess sneak attack fist of the heavens takes it. :\


----------



## Flamefang (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> That's a _little_ unfair.
> 
> But whatever, I guess sneak attack fist of the heavens takes it. :\



All that the OP said is that the U.S invades. The distants is not given. There is no reason that they would start far, im guessing he meant a plain old full out assault. And we all know who gets raped in that one


----------



## EvilMoogle (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> So basically what you're saying is the Army spawns with all it's artillery in range, in place, and ready to fire? Because moving 4000 artillery pieces through dense forest isn't gonna happen.
> 
> And if so, can I start all the ninja outside Konoha?



The artillery can shoot 18 - 186 miles depending on type.  This isn't right on the border of Konoha (hell, 186 miles may be beyond the border of the Fire Country).  This isn't asking them to spawn right on the edge of the city.

Setup time on the artillery ranges from 30 seconds to a few minutes.  Since they're outside of seeing (and hearing) range, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they'd have this time to set up.

And the "dense forest" has some sizable roads going through it.  Modern mechanized vehicles would have no problem driving on dirt roads (at least none of the units I specified would have problems with it).

Now just how many ninja do you think are in Konoha?

9 graduated with Naruto, assuming that's an average year and assuming all the ninja from 12-60 are fighting that gives us 441 ninja (assuming _none_ of them have died before "retirement").

That puts the ninja outnumbered around 1000:1 at the start.  Considering the number of "cannon-fodder" ninja the odds are going to be much worse than that.


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

EvilMoogle said:


> Now just how many ninja do you think are in Konoha?


I'm so glad you asked. 

here
I don't even remember what figure we arrived at, but I remember it was a fun thread.

Also, Flamefang, I didn't pull anything out of my ass. You're just pretty much completely wrong. It just wasn't worth it to bother with you when everyone knows it.


----------



## Flamefang (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> Also, Flamefang, I didn't pull anything out of my ass. You're just pretty much completely wrong. It just wasn't worth it to bother with you when everyone knows it.



No, your just making up figures. You have no proof of them, so they might as well be much greater than the actual thing. You are wrong


----------



## Psysalis (Oct 11, 2007)

Ok well i see the village getting destroyed but the ninjas have a good fighting chance.

simple jutsu like transfom , the replacement jutsu , the basic clone jutsu could throw soilders off easily. Transformed shadow clones disguised as soilders could cause alot of havoc also. 

Also , i know that Ninjas cant dodge bullets but they can dodge the attackers line of fire, Very fast moving targets are hard to hit with a gun and ninjas are pretty damn fast so the soilders arent guaranteed to hit one with every shot because i highly doubt they would stand there like sitting ducks to take the bullets.

The ninjas in Konoha arent dumbasses either , after seeing that guns can do or if they see how they work whats to stop them from getting a hold of them after taking out a couple soilders ? Hell imagine the Anbu squad and jounin's rollin with AK's + powerful jutsu at their disposal. 

I can see the village being lost , but i can see the fight ending in the ninjas favor.

Will make another post in a bit


----------



## EvilMoogle (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> I'm so glad you asked.
> 
> here
> I don't even remember what figure we arrived at, but I remember it was a fun thread.



See, there's a problem here:



> So: Assume that 20 students become Genin each year, with an average graduation age of 11. Let's further assume that the average age of promotion to Chuunin is 16. And let's say that a third of all Genin die on missions or during a Chuunin exam.



In Naruto's class 27 "passed" but they sent 2/3rds of them back to be students again (or to wash up), and only 9 really became Genin.

And the number you came up with was 140, which makes this fight more like 2800:1 rather than the 1000:1 I speculated above.  To me this seems insanely beyond what Konoha should be able to survive.

Though for fun here's how I'd calculate it:

*Spoiler*: _Calculations_ 




Assuming Naruto's class is typical and we get 9 new ninja a year.  To make life easy I'm also going to assume 9 random ninja die or retire each year so that we have a constant population.

Given a graduation age of 11 and a retirement age of 60 that would give us 450 total ninja.

We know the chuunin exam is held twice a year.  We also know that _very_ few ninja pass the chuunin exam.  Even assuming one Konoha ninja passes at each chuunin exam, that would be 100 of the 450 that would become chuunin at some point.

Assuming the passing rates are similar for the Jounin rank as the Chuunin rank that would give us about 22 of the 100 that become chuunin would become jounin.

Again assuming a constant population this gives us: 350 Genin, 78 Chuunin, and 22 Jounin in the villiage at any given point in time.




Either way though the numbers seem to be against Konoha tragically.


----------



## ez (Oct 11, 2007)

my god, it's even more rape than I originally thought. 140 ninjas taking on the entire millitary? I mean it's not like they're all high tier ninjas either, there's perhaps 10 of those...who could very well die in bombardment or random rounds. Well anyways, the guerrilla warefare strategy can only go on for so long (if they some how live) before being annihilated.


----------



## Hana (Oct 11, 2007)

To clarify something, the National Guard/Coast Guard fight with us (heck I even had a couple with me in Basic/AIT), and most of them are over in Iraq same as the Reserve and Regulars.

I'm in the medical department so I don't know a lot about artillery and weapons beyond the weapons I had to qualify with at Basic and within my unit, but don't underestimate the Army's technology.


----------



## Sky is Over (Oct 11, 2007)

uh, people who actually think konoha can win, do you realize the U.S. Military Force is the second largest in the world right now and that they have armor and gunships?


----------



## Isuzu (Oct 11, 2007)

King Leonidas said:


> uh, people who actually think konoha can win, do you realize the U.S. Military Force is the second largest in the world right now and that they have armor and gunships?



you forget the tsunade and sakura smashysmashy ability. 

i'm neutral, they'd tie


----------



## Sky is Over (Oct 11, 2007)

Isuzu said:


> you forget the tsunade and sakura smashysmashy ability.
> 
> i'm neutral, they'd tie



but they can direct towards the sky now can they, where 30mm Bullets would rain down and tear them to shreds. 

*fuck, we could just have the intelligence arm Danzou with modern weapondry to do the job themselves.*


----------



## Morpheus (Oct 11, 2007)

Modern Technology> Ninjas
Not to mention the extremely high numerical advantage the army has.
I give this to the army.

The only ninjas that can deal with tanks are Tsunade and maybe Sakura.
Also maybe Kakashi with his Mangekyou.
The army is simply too HUGE for Konoha to win.

What's next, The Sith vs Konoha?


----------



## Darklyre (Oct 11, 2007)

Unlike the Narutoverse's exploding tags, Claymore mines don't have chakra. Those will be one nasty surprise for anyone thinking of guerilla tactics.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 11, 2007)

Rambo


GG Konoha


----------



## Sky is Over (Oct 11, 2007)

> Modern Technology> Ninjas



indeed so; in the next decade, 1/3 of the military is going to be composed of robotic weapons.



> Unlike the Narutoverse's exploding tags, Claymore mines don't have chakra. Those will be one nasty surprise for anyone thinking of guerilla tactics.



qft, even though I think the comparison to the exploding tags is the the 40mm grenade that can be fired while being attached to an M-16 *and is part of every Army Squad.*



> Rambo



ah, but what was Rambo before he went mad?


----------



## Blue (Oct 11, 2007)

At least read the thread. =___=

Modern technology does not pwn ninjas. Huge massive fuckload of army sneak attacking pwn ninjas.


----------



## Sky is Over (Oct 11, 2007)

Blue said:


> At least read the thread. =___=
> 
> Modern technology does not pwn ninjas. Huge massive fuckload of army sneak attacking pwn ninjas.



which america's best is for, the green and black berets.  

And it isn't like the Army can't create counter-intelligence and give them false info, or that the 101st/82nd Airbourne could paradrop into their village and infiltrate it while Armor and Gunships attack the perimeter and meet up with the forces inside.



> The Army wins, but how easily depends on how far they are willing to go



in all honesty, they really wouldn't have to go that far...


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Oct 12, 2007)

*The Army wins, but how easily depends on how far they are willing to go. *


----------



## Wuzzman (Oct 12, 2007)

you should make US army bloodlust...right now the fucking CNN news channel owns the US army more then terriorist...that and liberal courts. sad day in american politics when there is a major political party that _benfiets_ from America losing a war.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 12, 2007)

Blue said:


> At least read the thread. =___=
> 
> Modern technology does not pwn ninjas. Huge massive fuckload of army sneak attacking pwn ninjas.



No, modern technology does pwn ninjas.

It's just in this case the OP has given the army a huge advantage, but if all our technology was allowed that wouldn't even be needed.


----------



## Blue (Oct 12, 2007)

Havoc said:


> No, modern technology does pwn ninjas.
> 
> It's just in this case the OP has given the army a huge advantage, but if all our technology was allowed that wouldn't even be needed.



That's true. Add in satellites and the Air Force and that would be that.


> which america's best is for, the green and black berets.
> 
> And it isn't like the Army can't create counter-intelligence and give them false info, or that the 101st/82nd Airbourne could paradrop into their village and infiltrate it while Armor and Gunships attack the perimeter and meet up with the forces inside.


Counter-intelligence? This isn't Afghanistan. 
If you think the Berets are going to win against a single jounin, you haven't really read Naruto. Or weren't paying attention.

You've seen Predator? Like that. Except an average chuunin is stonger, at least 10 times faster, and has a much larger bag of tricks.

Also ... crap, where's the rtfm smilie when you need it? -_-


----------



## master bruce (Oct 12, 2007)

army loses unless this is isolated area with no u.s. bystanders then konoha nin get nuked(ever heard of m.o.a.b. its a city buster and the army has like 1000 of them dude no joke.) repeatedly til just ashes left.



but without nukes/m.o.a.b. konoha wins.

even a random fodder nin can probably take out 5 or 10 army guys with m-16's,
thats without using jutsu.

if a normal human can move out of the way(before trigger is pulled) and dodge a bullet, then a superhuman damn sure can especially if that superhuman can take out 2 or 3 dudes before the other ones even realize to point and shoot the guns.
 not to mention the nin is moving so fast that the army guy can't see what to shoot at and is probably just either standing there looking around or is just shooting wildy around hitting their own men out of pure fear of fighting such a frightening enemy.




think about if, if you and ten of your friends all had ak's and you saw a guy on the street and you were just about to raise your guns, then suddenly he vanishes and 2 of your friends are killed instantly, then you heard more screaming as your other friends are getting speedblitz slaughtered,you can't see what to shoot at, even if you shoot randomly, nin can read your(in their superhuman eyes) slow motion movements and move out of the way before your finger ever pulls the trigger plus you'd probably only be hitting either air or your own friends by mistake(the army likes to call that friendly fire what chance would you really stand?........... 0 chance.


----------



## Morpheus (Oct 12, 2007)

The OP says THE ENTIRE US ARMY.
How the hell are the ninjas going to win? Do you realise how big the entire US army is?

It's like the 300 Spartans vs the Persians. The 300 were stronger, but in the end they got defeated due to their numerical disadvantage.


----------



## Nice Gai (Oct 12, 2007)

Only Gai survives. Kakashi kills two soldiers then fall asleep and someone shoots him. Ninja cant dodge bullets right?


----------



## Morpheus (Oct 12, 2007)

I doubt they can dodge the THOUSANDS of bullets the entire US army throws at them.
At least one will hit right?


----------



## K I S K E (Oct 12, 2007)

Hm... Well, lesse... The US Army currently has 1,200,000 members.
They will have pretty high success with Mechanized infantry units, along with field artillery.  Air assault would do okay, but airborne may be to slow... 
I need to think about this one...


----------



## master bruce (Oct 12, 2007)

*what good is field artillaery if you are shooting into your own men, dropping bombs dead on your own men, plus the nin (almost all of them) have super or inhuman speed and are moving around with superagility zagging and moving all over the place killing soldiers who( for the most part) can't even clearly see them and are just either freezing up fear as hell or just wildy shooting around and praying to hit something. And oh yes, 9 times out of motherf#$king 10 they will be hitting each other(friendly fire) or nothing at all.

this fight is integrated its not like the army on one side and konoha on the other.


there will be mixing fighting going on everywhere and mass chaos as superhumans moving at superspeed and superagile with powerful(some scary) jutsu run a muck.

oh and the 300 were like kindergardners compared to even fodder chunin in narutoverse, so that is bad analogy dude.



like I said only way army wins is to sneak attack and nuke konoha before the nin spread out.*


----------



## K I S K E (Oct 12, 2007)

master bruce said:


> *what good is field artillaery if you are shooting into your own men, dropping bombs dead on your own men, plus the nin (almost all of them) have super or inhuman speed and are moving around with superagility zagging and moving all over the place killing soldiers who( for the most part) can't even clearly see them and are just either freezing up fear as hell or just wildy shooting around and praying to hit something. And oh yes, 9 times out of motherf#$king 10 they will be hitting each other(friendly fire) or nothing at all.
> 
> this fight is integrated its not like the army on one side and konoha on the other.
> 
> ...



Well, first off, people tend not to kill their own people with artillery. It does happen, though. Yes, there will be mixed fighting, and that is how artillery works. Not to mention, it can also assault villages, and the like of that. That is how people win wars, by attack structures, and the ninja will have to go on the defense at that point, because you know... they don't have artillery. And why they may miss their targets, they probably won't hit each other. That actually doesn't happen very often...

But, I think the ninja would take it. There is probably alot of them, but if the Army can attack the home land, which they can, they may have a chance. Seriously, the 101st will fuck some shit up. Air assault is to fast even for them to keep up with.


----------



## Morpheus (Oct 12, 2007)

> oh and the 300 were like kindergardners compared to even fodder chunin in narutoverse, so that is bad analogy dude.



I wasn't comparing them in POWER. I was comparing the fights.
It's like the 300 vs the Persians, Konoha is stronger but loses because it is MASSIVELY OUTNUMBERED.


----------



## Birkin (Oct 12, 2007)

Gamabunta
Katsui

solos


----------



## K I S K E (Oct 12, 2007)

Man, do they even count? They are like, from scrolls, or something.


----------



## Blue (Oct 12, 2007)

Mr Bad Guy said:


> Man, do they even count? They are like, from scrolls, or something.


I didn't want to include Bunta, since there's a good chance Jiraiya won't even be in Konoha when it goes down, but yes, Katsuyu counts, if Tsunade lives long enough to summon her. In Moogle's scenario, she probably wouldn't.


----------



## K I S K E (Oct 12, 2007)

Now, real quick, I have been going on the assumption that this is the ENTIRE Army, including reserve and guard. True?


----------



## Morpheus (Oct 12, 2007)

It does say the ENTIRE US army.


----------



## K I S K E (Oct 12, 2007)

That can be taken two different ways. The US Army is the active component, while the reserve and guard are well... reserve components.


----------



## Blue (Oct 12, 2007)

The reserve, but not the guard, which isn't actually US Army at all.

I don't think it really matters anyway - 300000 more guys with outdated equipment isn't going to make a difference one way or the other.


----------



## K I S K E (Oct 12, 2007)

The Army National Guard is a part of the Army. And ah, jokes on you, this year the OKARNG got refitted. Although, they still use artillery pieces from 'nam.


----------



## ShangDOh (Oct 12, 2007)

The ENTIRE US Army. so I'm guessing that means...

Regular Army + Reserves + National Guard

Konoha would fall in an hour, if that...but seriously that's about 1 million soldiers give or take, 6000 or so(forgot the exact number, but it's within this range) M1A1/M1A2 tanks in service, Hundreds of Apache Attack Helicopters, and not to mention all those nice IFVs and artillery pieces. The Army doesn't even have to use infantry at first, they can just arty Konoha into a parking lot, then send in the infantry to mop up whatevers left. As for summons, I would love to see how long they last while sustaining fire from a mechanized division.

The Guard and Reserves are part of the Army. The ARMY National Guard gets the vast majority of its funding from the Feds, also Guard officers are recognized by the Federal Government and are to be treated with the same respect as Regular and Reserve officers. Guardsmen can be federalized and shipped overseas to fight with other Army units. They are part of the Army, states have their own defence forces seperate from the Guard.


----------



## master bruce (Oct 12, 2007)

you said konoha this should mean every alive nin who is currently a memeber of the leaf village or has a direct roll in leaf village politics.


jajriaya is not a rogue nin, he is memeber of the village even though he is hardly ever there, he is there sometimes, he plays a direct role in leaf village politics from death of 3rd on into shipuuden.


So why not include jairaya?

give me one good reason not to?


----------



## ShangDOh (Oct 12, 2007)

It doesn't matter he's only one man, other than his summons which are easy targets for armor and attack helicopters anyways.


----------



## maximilyan (Oct 12, 2007)

US army gets owned by summons.


----------



## ShangDOh (Oct 12, 2007)

Sorry but if Deidara can kill Manda with his wannabe MOAB, the army will have no trouble dealing with the summons.


----------



## Sky is Over (Oct 12, 2007)

Blue said:


> That's true. Add in satellites and the Air Force and that would be that.
> 
> Counter-intelligence? This isn't Afghanistan.
> If you think the Berets are going to win against a single jounin, you haven't really read Naruto. Or weren't paying attention.
> ...


ultimately ask yourself this, why didn't MK put guns and eventually phased out motorized vehicles in Naruto?


----------



## Wuzzman (Oct 12, 2007)

geez good to know alot of people with no military understanding are saying how much konoha owns because of movies like the predator. Makes me feel warm inside.


----------



## K I S K E (Oct 12, 2007)

ShangDOh said:


> The ENTIRE US Army. so I'm guessing that means...
> 
> Regular Army + Reserves + National Guard
> 
> ...



For more information about the guard! 
The 45th ID in WWII was said to be the greatest division in American history of arms, but LT GEN. Patton. It's a guard unit in Oklahoma now. 

THE MOAR YOU KNOW! 



King Leonidas said:


> ultimately ask yourself this, why didn't MK put guns and eventually phased out motorized vehicles in Naruto?



And you, stop being General Schloesser.


----------

