# (Strongest Edo) Minato takes on the Edo-lot



## DaVizWiz (Dec 17, 2014)

Minato is Edo with all of his Edo feats, however, his injuries do not heal until specified heal rounds, he does, however, receive the other benefits of being an Edo. ~This is a gauntlet. 

*Location*: Deidara vs. Sauce opening 
*Distance*: 45m
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Restrictions*: Izanagi, CT
*Stipulations*: *Edo Chiyo* starts with her 14 puppets out and stringed. *Edo Sasori* has all of his puppets prepped for summon. *Edo Zabuza* can summon all of the swords. *Edo Hiruzen* starts with 5 bunshins on the battlefield and Enma Staff in-hand. *Edo Tobirama* has 2 Iwagakure Jounin ET (with Shikamaru's speed) that can use Kakashi-level Doton walls and Hiding like a mole technique. Every Edo opponent carries a sealing scroll that must be wrapped around Minato to seal him, otherwise they have to completely obliterate him. *Edo Minato* can seal opponents by touching their Edo bodies with the Eight Trigrams or Four Symbols Seal, neither of which require a ritual for the purpose of this gauntlet. He is armed with 50 pre-tagged kunai at the beginning of this gauntlet, each [*HEAL/HALF HEAL*] round his kunai are replenished (if they were destroyed or are not on him before the end of a previous round, he does not have those kunai for the current round). *Edo Minato* can be poisoned, just as Edo Hanzo was. 

*1. Monsters of the Mist*: 
Edo Zabuza & Edo Haku & Edo Mangetsu  
*2. Legends of Old*: 
Edo Hanzo & Edo Chiyo
*3. Muscle of the Akatsuki*: 
Edo Kakuzu & Edo Sasori & Edo Deidara
[*HEAL*]
*4. Those who once Ruled*: 
Edo Rasa & Edo A & Edo Genjetsu & Edo Mu
*5. Murderers with a Cause*: 
Edo Itachi & Edo Nagato
*6. His Predecessors*: 
Edo Tobirama & Edo Hiruzen 
[*HEAL*]
*7. Transmigrant of Asura; Senju King of Konoha and Unifier of Enemies, Shinobi no Kami*: 
Edo Hashirama 
[*HALF HEAL*]:
*8. Transmigrant of Indra; Uchiha Mastermind and Immortal Seeker of Power, Kono Yo no Kyūseishu*: 
Edo Madara​


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## Trojan (Dec 18, 2014)

So, this is BM Minato.. 



> 1. Monsters of the Mist:
> Edo Zabuza & Edo Haku & Edo Mangetsu


Minato fodderstomps. 


> 2. Legends of Old:
> Edo Hanzo & Edo Chiyo


Minato fodderstomps them extreme low difficult.



> 3. Muscle of the Akatsuki:
> Edo Kakuzu & Edo Sasori & Edo Deidara


Still, he fodderstomps.



> [HEAL]
> 4. Those who once Ruled:
> Edo Rasa & Edo A & Edo Genjetsu & Edo Mu



TBB GG. 


> 5. Murderers with a Cause:
> Edo Itachi & Edo Nagato


TBB GG. 



> [HEAL]
> 6. His Predecessors:
> Edo Tobirama & Edo Hiruzen


Minato fodderstomps. They can't even scratch the avatar, like everyone else so far. 



> [HEAL]
> 7. Transmigrant of Asura; Senju King of Konoha and Unifier of Enemies, Shinobi no Kami:
> Edo Hashirama


Minato wins, high difficult probably. 



> [HALF HEAL]:
> 8. Transmigrant of Indra; Uchiha Mastermind and Immortal Seeker of Power, Kono Yo no Kyūseishu:
> Edo Madara



Minato wins as well. Especially after conforming that PS's attack cannot even scratch 1 or 2 tails, and that's
the strongest he has as an Edo.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 18, 2014)

Keep in mind any injuries he receives he won't heal from until specified heal rounds, and he starts in base in each scenario.


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## Veracity (Dec 18, 2014)

Doesn't get passed EDO Itachi and Nagato .


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## Ersa (Dec 18, 2014)

Without healing he should fall to the dojutsu duo, he is stronger then either but not enough to take both down with injuries. Yata's Mirror and ST will allow them to weather weaker TBB and the two have enough hax and intelligence to figure him out and put him down.


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## ARGUS (Dec 18, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> *1. Monsters of the Mist*:
> Edo Zabuza & Edo Haku & Edo Mangetsu
> *2. Legends of Old*:
> Edo Hanzo & Edo Chiyo
> ...


Each of these are obliterated with extreme ease, no explantions needed


> [*HEAL*]
> *4. Those who once Ruled*:
> Edo Rasa & Edo A & Edo Genjetsu & Edo Mu


Minato wins this mid diff at most 

 - Fourth kazekage and THird Raikage are marked right off the bat and eradicated by TBB barrages immediately, as neither of them could scratch the kurama avatar 

 - Muus jinton is evaded ON FOOT, and his invisiblity attacks are also garbage infront of minatos avatar, as he gets bltized, marked and then finished

 - Mizukages clam genjutsu is alos not doing shit when minato can blow away the mist with the kurama roar, and with the AOE of his TBB, means that the clam along with the mizukage are vaporised completely 



> *5. Murderers with a Cause*:
> Edo Itachi & Edo Nagato


Minato wins this mid/high diff, 

 - None of their attacks are sufficient enough to breach the avatar that tanked even the juubi beam, CST is tanked, and CT is fodderised by continous TBB, 

 - Preta is countered by the kurama roar as minato bombards nagato with continous TBB and vaporises him completely, and preta absorbing anything more than 2 TBB is a no limits fallacy

 - Minato can also engage nagato at CQC, and through his clones and himself haviing far superrior speed and reactions, he can mark nagato as once that happens he is done for

 - Itachi is not doing shit here, his susanoo and himself are vaporised by a single TBB, nothing else is needed, and he has no way of tracking his speed, which only makes things worse


> *6. His Predecessors*:
> Edo Tobirama & Edo Hiruzen


Minato wrecks them, why is this after even round 4? 

 - Hiruzen is finished off by a single BM clone, especially when he has no way of reacting to BM shunshin from Minato aidded wtih FTG, where mInato marks him and finishes him off right off the bat, a TBB from minato is just a GG for him here

 - GKF is tanked by the kurama avatar with little to no problems meaning that anything that tobirama has, gets laughed at completely, and with minato firring continous TBB, that bypasses tobiramas FTG range, means that he gets vaporised as well 



> [*HEAL*]
> *7. Transmigrant of Asura; Senju King of Konoha and Unifier of Enemies, Shinobi no Kami*:
> Edo Hashirama


Hashirama wins this, 

 - Minato doesnt have a counter for SS, especially when it can slam all of minatos TBB right back at him through its large arms, and with chojo kobetsu here, means that his avatar gets breached completely, and then hes done for, 

 - With SS being able to backfire minatos offense added with its own powerful offense, means that none of minatos attacks are cutting it here, and the onslaught of the kurama avatar and SS just bypasses FTG completely,

 - Blitzing is also not happening,  not when hashiramas mokutons constructs prevent him from getting marked, and when madara managed to react to an FTG attack after gaining a portion of hashiramas SM 

 - Minato having a time limit for his BM only makes things worse for him 



> [*HALF HEAL*]:
> *8. Transmigrant of Indra; Uchiha Mastermind and Immortal Seeker of Power, Kono Yo no Kyūseishu*:
> Edo Madara


Minato wins this mid/high diff, why is this after hashirama? 

 - PS slashes are blocked by the tails of the avatar, followed by minato firing off continous TBB to eradicate his PS and mark madara, and blitz him off,

 - Minato being able to telepot madara out of his PS, and the fact that madara cant even react to his shunshin only makes things worse 

 - Base mokutons are not doing shit here when FTG lets him evade them completely,, or when minatos TBB fodders them with ease, and preta is not doing shit either when madara cant even use it when hes inside his susanoo, and without it he gets blitzed, 

 - Tengai Shinsei is also garbage when a single PS slash was able to eradicate it, and with minatos firepower, means that he laughs at it by vaporising it with a single TBB


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

I'll left my opinion about the list later, but i have a quastion - is there at least 1 proof that teleportation/very fast movement speed techniques can be used in a combination with Kurama Avatar? Naruto never used those techniques while being in Kurama Avatar, the same with Minato.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 18, 2014)

> *1. Monsters of the Mist*:
> Edo Zabuza & Edo Haku & Edo Mangetsu



Minato Stomps



> *2. Legends of Old*:
> Edo Hanzo & Edo Chiyo



Minato Stomps



> *3. Muscle of the Akatsuki*:
> Edo Kakuzu & Edo Sasori & Edo Deidara



Minato Stomps



> *4. Those who once Ruled*:
> Edo Rasa & Edo A & Edo Genjetsu & Edo Mu



Minato wins



> *5. Murderers with a Cause*:
> Edo Itachi & Edo Nagato



Probaly Minatos toughest fight and could go either way



> *6. His Predecessors*:
> Edo Tobirama & Edo Hiruzen



Dont understand why this match is after Itachi & Nagato. We have already seen that Edo Minato is superior to Edo Tobirama and what is Hiruzen going to do besides wet his pants




> *7. Transmigrant of Asura; Senju King of Konoha and Unifier of Enemies, Shinobi no Kami*:
> Edo Hashirama



Hashirama is still superior



> *8. Transmigrant of Indra; Uchiha Mastermind and Immortal Seeker of Power, Kono Yo no Kyūseishu*:
> Edo Madara



Don't understand why this match is after Hahirama. Minato wins


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

Nobody is gonna answer my quastion? Ok, nevermind. 

Well, in OP, Minato has all his edo feats but its not Minato with Kurama's chakra. Am i right?

If its BM Edo Minato:

1. Minato stomps.

2. Minato stomps.

3. Minato stomps.

4. Minato wins.

5. Team wins.

6. Minato wins.

7. Hashirama wins.

8. Edo Madara wins.



If its base Edo Minato:

1. Minato stomps.

2. Minato stomps.

3. Minato wins mid-diff.

4. Team wins.

5. Team stomps.

6. Team stomps.

7. Hashirama slaughters.

8. Madara slaughters.


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## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Doesn't get passed EDO Itachi and Nagato .



hmmmm.......


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## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

Considering a one battle at a time i believe minato is capable of winning any of these but as a gauntlet its too much..


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## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Each of these are obliterated with extreme ease, no explantions needed
> 
> Minato wins this mid diff at most
> 
> ...



Its funny that against hashirama you believe minato is the same matchup as bm naruto....the utility of ftg is ridiculous..especially when its in character for minato to spam seals and to put markers miles away as safe spots..a simple shunshin from a kcm clone means minato has a tag several miles away as a charging spot and recouperation point...not to mention that minatos use of spacetime barrier and ftg to position the bijudama is completely forgotten...one mark on shin sensenju and minato teleports a superbijudama point blank on it or even seals around its it there is no time to catch anything.. while using markers from clones spamming markers in in all directions to keep distance.. not to mention hashirama has no answer to frog song..and how is shinsensenju suppsoed to close the distance on bm minato...his shunshin in base was ridicuous he far outpaced the hokage in shunshin ..and hashirama was dancing around kyuubisussano.. to land his fist barrage why in gods name would minato let him get into punching range..sm hashirama was pumped full of black rods by edo madara dont give him madaras feats..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Considering a one battle at a time i believe minato is capable of winning any of these but ass a gauntlet its too much..



Minato doesnt have a chance against aither Hashirama, or Madara. It has been proven already.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2014)

I don't even see what there is to discuss here. There's a very definite gap between Edo Minato and the other Edo Tensei up until Hashirama and Madara. And then there's another very definite gap between Edo Minato and those two.

Bijuu Mode with Hiraishin and KCM = Warpable Bijuudama-spamming with Raikage-level movement speed, which ought to casually wipe the floor with any Edo Tensei up until Hashirama, who makes even the complete Kyuubi look like a Paris Hilton purse dog. Edo Madara is stronger still, and with only a "half-heal" following the engagement with Hashirama (which Minato has zero chance of winning outside of a fluke, anyway), the level of rape is almost comical.

So Minato pretty much curbstomps his way down the list to Hashirama and then gets shamed utterly by chakra-sapping Wood Jutsu, with the best probable outcome being a mutual seal with Shiki Fujin (which could also go completely to waste on one of Shodai's Wood Clone feints). Edo Madara can wipe any Hiraishin tags off the map with his Perfect Susano'o, then real Minato in with Bansho Tenin, rip the Kyuubi out of him, and shove it up his zombie asshole before ripping his soul out as well.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't even see what there is to discuss here. There's a very definite gap between Edo Minato and the other Edo Tensei up until Hashirama and Madara. And then there's another very definite gap between Edo Minato and those two.
> 
> Bijuu Mode with Hiraishin and KCM = Warpable Bijuudama-spamming with Raikage-level movement speed, which ought to casually wipe the floor with any Edo Tensei up until Hashirama, who makes even the complete Kyuubi look like a Paris Hilton purse dog. Edo Madara is stronger still, and with only a "half-heal" following the engagement with Hashirama (which Minato has zero chance of winning outside of a fluke, anyway), the level of rape is almost comical.
> 
> So Minato pretty much curbstomps his way down the list to Hashirama and then gets shamed utterly by chakra-sapping Wood Jutsu, with the best probable outcome being a mutual seal with Shiki Fujin (which could also go completely to waste on one of Shodai's Wood Clone feints). Edo Madara can wipe any Hiraishin tags off the map with his Perfect Susano'o, then real Minato in with Bansho Tenin, rip the Kyuubi out of him, and shove it up his zombie asshole before ripping his soul out as well.


50% perfect Jinchuuriki Kurama >>>>> 100 full Kurama. Much stronger.

How can Hashirama sap Minatos chakra when he can teleport out of any bind. That's a useless tactic against minato.

The tactic you used for Madara is so flawed. First of all, I didn't know Madara had bansho tenin. And minato can mark anything that he touches. If Madara tries to grab minato, he'll get marked just for being too close to minato. It's so easy to mark Susanoo, because it's so big. Minato can make shadow clones which he can use. 

Minatos shadow clones also produce their own kunai. KCM clones easily create more markings for minato. Not to mention minato can teleport to his own clones. It's impossible for Madara to eliminate all of Minatos escape and teleportation options. He can even plant a jutsu formula on the ground, on trees, on rocks. Madara trying to grab minato is his own suicude, because he will get marked and defeated. The marking on Madara's body means minato always has a place to teleport to.


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## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't even see what there is to discuss here. There's a very definite gap between Edo Minato and the other Edo Tensei up until Hashirama and Madara. And then there's another very definite gap between Edo Minato and those two.
> 
> Bijuu Mode with Hiraishin and KCM = Warpable Bijuudama-spamming with Raikage-level movement speed, which ought to casually wipe the floor with any Edo Tensei up until Hashirama, who makes even the complete Kyuubi look like a Paris Hilton purse dog. Edo Madara is stronger still, and with only a "half-heal" following the engagement with Hashirama (which Minato has zero chance of winning outside of a fluke, anyway), the level of rape is almost comical.
> 
> So Minato pretty much curbstomps his way down the list to Hashirama and then gets shamed utterly by chakra-sapping Wood Jutsu, with the best probable outcome being a mutual seal with Shiki Fujin (which could also go completely to waste on one of Shodai's Wood Clone feints). Edo Madara can wipe any Hiraishin tags off the map with his Perfect Susano'o, then real Minato in with Bansho Tenin, rip the Kyuubi out of him, and shove it up his zombie asshole before ripping his soul out as well.



Wow hyperbole is real..first of all kcm naruto was faster then raikage ..this is kcm minato who was trolling raikage in base and leaving guys like tobirama in the dust in shunshin.....stop trying to treat bm minato the same as bm naruto jesus...how exactly are those wood sapping jutsu supposed to land when a simple bijudama explosion blows all the mokuton except shinsensenju away....and how da hell is shinsensenju supposed to catch bm minato when base minato has shunshin which can cross konoha and blitz kurama...his shunshin eclipses hashirama who was dancing around kyuubisussano..ftg tags never dissapear...and wont get destroyed...and stop giving edo madara imaginary feats....ur wank is showing..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't even see what there is to discuss here. There's a very definite gap between Edo Minato and the other Edo Tensei up until Hashirama and Madara. And then there's another very definite gap between Edo Minato and those two.
> 
> Bijuu Mode with Hiraishin and KCM = Warpable Bijuudama-spamming with Raikage-level movement speed, which ought to casually wipe the floor with any Edo Tensei up until Hashirama, who makes even the complete Kyuubi look like a Paris Hilton purse dog. Edo Madara is stronger still, and with only a "half-heal" following the engagement with Hashirama (which Minato has zero chance of winning outside of a fluke, anyway), the level of rape is almost comical.
> 
> So Minato pretty much curbstomps his way down the list to Hashirama and then gets shamed utterly by chakra-sapping Wood Jutsu, with the best probable outcome being a mutual seal with Shiki Fujin (which could also go completely to waste on one of Shodai's Wood Clone feints). Edo Madara can wipe any Hiraishin tags off the map with his Perfect Susano'o, then real Minato in with Bansho Tenin, rip the Kyuubi out of him, and shove it up his zombie asshole before ripping his soul out as well.



Where are you getting that from? Where is a proof he can use space-time barrier in a combination with Kurama Avatar state? Where is a proof it is possible to use FTG while being in Kurama state?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> 50% perfect Jinchuuriki Kurama >>>>> 100 full Kurama. Much stronger.



But Madara > Minato, and 100% Kyuubi > 50% Kyuubi; and Hashirama > Madara+100% Kyuubi.



> How can Hashirama sap Minatos chakra when he can teleport out of any bind. That's a useless tactic against minato.



Hashirama can spam Mokuton all over the battlefield and completely overgrow any Hiraishin seals. His pollen covers the whole area, too.



> The tactic you used for Madara is so flawed. First of all, I didn't know Madara had bansho tenin.



He has the Rinnegan and demonstrated use of some of its paths; it's a reasonable expectation that he can use it, if he can use Chibaku Tensei of all things...



> And minato can mark anything that he touches. If Madara tries to grab minato, he'll get marked just for being too close to minato. It's so easy to mark Susanoo, because it's so big. Minato can make shadow clones which he can use.



Edo Madara can make more clones than Minato, has more brute power than Minato, and has the speed to react to Minato. Hiraishin marking is useless, especially if he marks Madara; that is the last thing he wants to teleport right into.



> Minatos shadow clones also produce their own kunai. KCM clones easily create more markings for minato. Not to mention minato can teleport to his own clones. It's impossible for Madara to eliminate all of Minatos escape and teleportation options. He can even plant a jutsu formula on the ground, on trees, on rocks. Madara trying to grab minato is his own suicude, because he will get marked and defeated. The marking on Madara's body means minato always has a place to teleport to.



One swing of PS and all Minato's Hiraishin marks are blown to dust. One more swing and Minato is dust. Then Madara casually soul-rips.



sabre320 said:


> Wow hyperbole is real..first of all kcm naruto was faster then raikage ..this is kcm minato who was trolling raikage in base and leaving guys like tobirama in the dust in shunshin.....stop trying to treat bm minato the same as bm naruto jesus...how exactly are those wood sapping jutsu supposed to land when a simple bijudama explosion blows all the mokuton except shinsensenju away....



Hashirama caught and threw back a Bijuudama from the complete Kyuubi with his wood golem in base form. Bijuudama from half the Kyuubi is doing fuck-all.



> and how da hell is shinsensenju supposed to catch bm minato when base minato has shunshin which can cross konoha and blitz kurama...



Only an idiot would even think of Minato avoiding Shinsuusenju with Shunshin no Jutsu. That is retarded.



> his shunshin eclipses hashirama who was dancing around kyuubisussano..ftg tags never dissapear...and wont get destroyed...and stop giving edo madara imaginary feats....ur wank is showing..



Take your 12-year-old internet trashtalk back to Call of Duty, scrub.



StarWanderer said:


> Where are you getting that from? Where is a proof he can use space-time barrier in a combination with Kurama Avatar state? Where is a proof it is possible to use FTG while being in Kurama state?



There's no reason I can think of why Minato's space-time Jutsu would be unusable with BM or KCM. I mean, he explicitly used Hiraishin while in one of those modes (I don't recall which; he wasn't in giant Bijuu form, but it might've been a human Bijuu Mode like Naruto's) and he teleported the entire shinobi alliance army by connecting to the chakra Naruto gave everyone.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> There's no reason I can think of why Minato's space-time Jutsu would be unusable with BM or KCM. I mean, he explicitly used Hiraishin while in one of those modes (I don't recall which; he wasn't in giant Bijuu form, but it might've been a human Bijuu Mode like Naruto's) and he teleported the entire shinobi alliance army by connecting to the chakra Naruto gave everyone.



He wasnt in Kurama Avatar state and he did it because of Naruto. And i highly doubt he can use Guiding Thunder in his Kurama Avatar state because of a huge amount of chakra he needs to control (Kurama's chakra). 

And realy - how many Bijuu Bombs he created throughtout the series?


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> There's no reason I can think of why Minato's space-time Jutsu would be unusable with BM or KCM. I mean, he explicitly used Hiraishin while in one of those modes (I don't recall which; he wasn't in giant Bijuu form, but it might've been a human Bijuu Mode like Naruto's) and he teleported the entire shinobi alliance army by connecting to the chakra Naruto gave everyone.



And what Raikage level? Young, Body Flicker-less, tailed beast chakra level-less Raikage level?


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## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> But Madara > Minato, and 100% Kyuubi > 50% Kyuubi; and Hashirama > Madara+100% Kyuubi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Edo Madara can wipe any Hiraishin tags off the map with his Perfect Susano'o, then real Minato in with Bansho Tenin, rip the Kyuubi out of him, and shove it up his zombie asshole before ripping his soul out as well.....you think madara stomps bm minato low diff thats wank...his ps is outmatched handily by bm avatar in both offense and defense..one tail can block a ps sword strike..hirashin seals remain,....seals planted will not be destroyed...you believe shinsensenju is faster then bm minato....base hasirama was dancing around kyuubisussano and bm minato cant...


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 18, 2014)

Yeah, Minato has Kurama, I didn't restrict it. 

Not sure everyone is aware that Minato is healed during the gauntlet, and that I gave certain characters special advantages in the gauntlet. 

Someone asked why Tobirama and Hiruzen were after the ocular duo, I gave them special advantages if you read the OP, which is why I believe they're a more difficult challenge than Itachi & Nagato, I also restricted Chibaku Tensei.

I also don't know if everyone is aware that Kurama isn't an Edo, he's sealed into an Edo, thus his chakra doesn't instantly replenish, thus Minato cannot just stay in BM throughout the entire gauntlet, Kurama can run out of chakra~ it's happened.


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## ARGUS (Dec 19, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yeah, Minato has Kurama, I didn't restrict it.
> 
> Not sure everyone is aware that Minato is healed during the gauntlet, and that I gave certain characters special advantages in the gauntlet.
> 
> Someone asked why Tobirama and Hiruzen were after the ocular duo, I gave them special advantages if you read the OP, which is why I believe they're a more difficult challenge than Itachi & Nagato, I also restricted Chibaku Tensei.


Doesnt matter whether yu restricted CT or not for Nagato, 
edo itachi and nagato as a group are well above tobirama  and hiruzen, 
bm, minato one shots tobirama and hiruzen whilst nagato alone can still somewhat put up a better fight compared to those 2, regardless of CT which is garbage to BM minato anyways 


> I also don't know if everyone is aware that Kurama isn't an Edo, he's sealed into an Edo, thus his chakra doesn't instantly replenish, thus Minato cannot just stay in BM throughout the entire gauntlet, Kurama can run out of chakra~ it's happened.


Yes



sabre320 said:


> Its funny that against hashirama you believe minato is the same matchup as bm naruto....the utility of ftg is ridiculous..especially when its in character for minato to spam seals and to put markers miles away as safe spots.a simple shunshin from a kcm clone means minato has a tag several miles away as a charging spot and recouperation point...not to mention that minatos use of spacetime barrier and ftg to position the bijudama is completely forgotten...one mark on shin sensenju and minato teleports a superbijudama point blank on it or even seals around its it there is no time to catch anything.. while using markers from clones spamming markers in in all directions to keep distance.. not to mention hashirama has no answer to frog song..and how is shinsensenju suppsoed to close the distance on bm minato...his shunshin in base was ridicuous he far outpaced the hokage in shunshin ..and hashirama was dancing around kyuubisussano.. to land his fist barrage why in gods name would minato let him get into punching range..sm hashirama was pumped full of black rods by edo madara dont give him madaras feats..


Minato is either forming the markings or he is fighting hashirama, hes not doing both at a time, especially when the sheer magnitude of the onslaught between the duo would eradicate all the surrounding clones completely, before they do shit, 
If he decides to form the markings then he gets overwhelmed by SS 
And if he decides to combat SS, then his only offense (TBB) are just backfired at his face

and what good is forming markings at a further location going to do?
furthermore minato still has no way of attacking SS at all, when the construct just slams back all of his TBB right back at his face, hell even Mokuton Hotei haands are large enough to slam it back at Minato,  and coming close to it is even worse when Chojo Kobetsu would pulverise him completely, ,or when hes in the risk of being put to sleep by Kakuan Nitten Suishu though that is unlikely, 

and whats this about frog song?,, there is no way minato is summoning the frogs here, not to mention that does he even know the ritual of summoning ma and pa? when even naruto doesnt know that,  
Does minato even know what frog song is? when even jiraiya was unaware of it, ?, 
and Lol Frog  Song is not doing shit anyways when hashirama would be out of its range anyways, 
unless ur telling me that frog songs range is multi kms which it certainly isnt


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 19, 2014)

Agree with niku, edo madara and edo Hashirama stomp via moukuton suppressing the bm avatar and there megazords casually destroying the battlefield along with any ftg markers


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## Sorin (Dec 19, 2014)

He wrecks everyone up until Hashirama and Madara. He gets beat by both with mid to high difficulty. Minato's base speed is already above both Hashirama's and Madara's. Now with half of Kurama's chakra he should be able to shunshin like a friend left right and center. Gonna be a pain in the ass for both to actually catch Minato. Because that's what they have to do to sap out his Kurama chakra. 

Eventually Madara's versatility and Hashirama's long range and massive wood techs would prevail though. So yeah mid to high diff.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

Sorin said:


> He wrecks everyone up until Hashirama and Madara. He gets beat by both with mid to high difficulty. Minato's base speed is already above both Hashirama's and Madara's. Now with half of Kurama's chakra he should be able to shunshin like a friend left right and center. Gonna be a pain in the ass for both to actually catch Minato. Because that's what they have to do to sap out his Kurama chakra.
> 
> Eventually Madara's versatility and Hashirama's long range and massive wood techs would prevail though. So yeah mid to high diff.



Minato's base speed is nowhere near Madara's, or Hashirama's level. And even BM Minato isnt as fast as both Hashirama and Madara.


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## Sorin (Dec 19, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Minato's base speed is nowhere near Madara's, or Hashirama's level. And even BM Minato isnt as fast as both Hashirama and Madara.



How do you reckon? 

Tobirama was called by Madara the fastest man in his time. Meaning that he was faster than both Hashirama and Madara. 

Minato reached the battlefield first before Tobirama, Hashirama and Hiruzen.

He constantly gained hype as the fastest men. Likewise with reactions. 

I don't mean that he is league faster than them. I think the difference in base is negligible between them but Minato has the slight edge still. 

BM Minato not being faster than Madara and Hashirama is quite silly. We say how much was Naruto augmented by Kurama's chakra. No reason to think that didn't happen to Minato also. 

I mean you can call him weaker than both because he is is, but slower in BM mode? Yeah no.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

> How do you reckon?



Both Madara and Hashirama have better feats.



> Tobirama was called by Madara the fastest man in his time. Meaning that he was faster than both Hashirama and Madara.



He told Tobirama was *praised* as the fastest of his time. Praise proves nothing at all. But even if he was, so what? He still was faster than BM Minato.



> Minato reached the battlefield first before Tobirama, Hashirama and Hiruzen.



Because his Hiraishin was better than that of Tobirama. Which means he can teleport there faster than the others. His travel speed is the fastest among the Kage, but his combat speed and reflexes isnt. Also, that was a part of their battle preparation.



> He constantly gained hype as the fastest men. Likewise with reactions.



Hype and praise means nothing at all. Facts and feats are the things to deside who is faster/stronger/better etc.



> I don't mean that he is league faster than them. I think the difference in base is negligible between them but Minato has the slight edge still.



Madara can wreck base Minato in taijutsu only, especially with his Gunbai. 

Edo Madara easily duplicated Minato's feat of dodging Ei, but Madara's duplication was better, since it was Raikage Ei, not a young Ei. Young Ei wasnt as fast, didnt have Body Flicker, didnt have tailed beasts level chakra. Overall, Ei became much faster/stronger during those years before he became Raikage. Young Ei wasnt in his prime.

Edo Madara's *clones* could react to Raikage. 

Edo Madara easily reacted to Gaara's sand that saved Raikage from Sasuke's Enton.

Edo Madara, in general, had no problems of reacting to 5 Kage.

Edo Madara easily reacted to BM Naruto's clone.

And that was Edo Madara. Alive EMS Madara is, overall, more powerfull than his Edo self. Alive Madara can use his full potential and body's capability.

Alive *aye-less* Madara wrecked both SM Naruto and Sai effortlessly.

And what base Minato did? Defeated Ei and Obito, when both of them were far below their prime? Had problems with young Obito, who almost sucked him in Kamui demention?

None of those is on the same level as Madara's feats.

And Edo Hashirama, not in his overall full power because of his Edo state, weakened by clones he created, was able to fight Edo Madara on equal terms. Plus, alive Hashirama outran Bijuu Dama from full Kurama.

Hashirama also can wreck base Minato in taijutsu only, especially with his Sage Mode.


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## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Sorin said:


> He wrecks everyone up until Hashirama and Madara. He gets beat by both with mid to high difficulty. Minato's base speed is already above both Hashirama's and Madara's. Now with half of Kurama's chakra he should be able to shunshin like a friend left right and center. Gonna be a pain in the ass for both to actually catch Minato. Because that's what they have to do to sap out his Kurama chakra.
> 
> Eventually Madara's versatility and Hashirama's long range and massive wood techs would prevail though. So yeah mid to high diff.



Edo madara has no case for winning his base mokuton is destroyed with one bijudama..and his greatest power ps is handily outmatched by bm avatar..meteors are destroyed with a simple bijudama...one tail from bm avatar matches ps sword strike...he can make super bijudamas several times the bm avatars size..bm tanked the juubis laser that ploughed through 11 bijudama and ploughed through a mountain range..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Edo madara has no case for winning his base mokuton is destroyed with one bijudama..and his greatest power ps is handily outmatched by bm avatar..



Wrong, fanboy who is always ignoring me. Wood Dragon was enough to suppress Kurama Avatar, and it was destroyed by *Full Kurama's* Bijuu Dama. Highly doubt it will be easy for half Kurama Avatar to destroy Wood Dragon.

PS withstood a Bijuu Dama from full Kurama without even a scratch. And that Bijuu Dama was about the same size as half Kurama's biggest Bijuu Dama's. Minato's BM Avatar cant do anything to PS and can be simply outlasted by PS.


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## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Doesnt matter whether yu restricted CT or not for Nagato,
> edo itachi and nagato as a group are well above tobirama  and hiruzen,
> bm, minato one shots tobirama and hiruzen whilst nagato alone can still somewhat put up a better fight compared to those 2, regardless of CT which is garbage to BM minato anyways
> 
> ...



What markings are u taking about ...he can use multiple clones to place marking seals....ur acting as if marking is some long drawn out process where he has to stand still and charge sm he can literally lay markings while shunshining around he has to touch a object the ground or ect with his hand or foot.....base hashirama was dancing around kyuubisussano this is someone with about the same firepower as shinsensenju ..strongest Kazekage
Link removed
Link removed
stop acting like minatos clones will be eradicated....kcm and bm clones far outstrip hashirama in shunshin and they can use ftg....base minato far eclipses hashirama in shunshin...what part of teleporting bijudama are u missing...minato can teleport bijudama directly onto targets through ftg or spacetime barrier leaving no time for catching and redirecting...
space time barrier..
Link removed
ftg
Link removed


Link removed hashirama needs to close the distance to use chojo kobetsu he covered the distance at the same speed as kyuubisussano do u think bm minato using shunshin is slower then dat??? and why in gods name would a genius ninja like minato rush headon against shinsensenju when his strongest attacks are ranged?

Placing a marking miles away gives him massive tactical advantage where he can charge superbijudamas without ay danger...recoupertae his bm..charge frogsong and teleport back to unleash said attacks..

Minato can summon all the frogs the ritual jirayia used was for sage mode...kishi confirmed minato can summon all the frogs in both interview and databook..minatotrained in senjutsu knows of frog mountain and only fukaksu has been shown as teaching sage mode and knew minato..its ma and pa that use frogsong and the have knowledge...madara could hear hashirama on top of kyuubisussano and hashirama could hear madara on top of shinsensenju ...im coming madara!!! come hashirama! remember...frog song is a long range technique that uses senjutsu enhanced sound...why wouldnt the sound reach when madaras and hashiramas reached?not to mention the frogs are safe in bm avatar and are amped by kyuubi chakra..

Minato likes to spam markings and almost always likes to place marking in a location faraway to teleport attacks and to recouperate
Link removed


He placed a marking hundreds of miles into the sea considering the size of juubidams blast
through his shunshin placed markings for the hokage barrier and teleported the juubidama while no one even registered his presence all the while hashirama didnt even make it to the battle quite a bit later even though they did none of the afromentioned tasks....this was in base

He makes clones in bm or kcm clones 1 clone shunshins away and places a marking a miles away like was the case in the sea...he others place markings all over the battlefield..if we assume minatos bm runs out he can teleport to the seal the clone placed miles away for kurama to put bm back..why are you assuming it will be miraculous for minato to place a marking against shinsensenju it is a huge target a mark can be made by sacrificing a kcm clone tagging it through shunshin or ftg kunai..

Minato was capableof teleporting an attack much larger then the juubi in base...shinsensenju is about the same size as the juubi Link removed he can teleport the buudha to the marker placed by the earlier clone miles away thus rendering hashirama vulnerable..

Worst comes to worse minato summons ma and pa keeps his distance through ftg and shunshin and waits for frog song to charge up then he uses frogsong hashirama gets caught in frogsong and its a gameender.

To act like minato is bm naruto is fallacious he is a top tier ninja without bm with one of the most hax utility jutsu in the manga..

Link removed
an emiciated kurama running on empty was able to make a bijudama this size in a sec thats multi mountain range...a fresh bm is capable of making one atleast 3 times that..that teleported onto or near shinsensenju is cauing massive damage..


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## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Wrong, fanboy who is always ignoring me. Wood Dragon was enough to suppress Kurama Avatar, and it was destroyed by *Full Kurama's* Bijuu Dama. Highly doubt it will be easy for half Kurama Avatar to destroy Wood Dragon.
> 
> PS withstood a Bijuu Dama from full Kurama without even a scratch. And that Bijuu Dama was about the same size as half Kurama's biggest Bijuu Dama's. Minato's BM Avatar cant do anything to PS and can be simply outlasted by PS.



Theres a reason i ignore you...you provide fallacious arguments and ur hate for characters is blatant..u are stubborn and have very little knowledge on the manga... i have not mentioned you in a comment nor have i called you a fanboy nor have my posts been directed towards you so dont spew trollish shit about me for no reason..


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## Sorin (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Both Madara and Hashirama have better feats.



Which are those feats? 

Minato crossing all of Konoha in one shunshin and dropping a toad on Kurama's head before Kurama shot an already completed BD is better than anything they've pulled seriously.





> He told Tobirama was *praised* as the fastest of his time. Praise proves nothing at all. But even if he was, so what? He still was faster than BM Minato.


Praise means nothing? What the hell. That's the author telling you directly that Tobirama was the fastest man alive. You mean to tell me that people would take Tobirama's side against Hashirama and Madara? Because he was praised by people. The same people that praised Hashirama as being strongest man. 

Tobirama faster than BM Minato? You must be jocking. If you really believe that than i have nothing to discuss further with you.





> Because his Hiraishin was better than that of Tobirama. Which means he can teleport there faster than the others. His travel speed is the fastest among the Kage, but his combat speed and reflexes isnt. Also, that was a part of their battle preparation.





Hype and praise means nothing at all. Facts and feats are the things to decide who is faster/stronger/better etc. Luckily enough Minato has both of them in spades.





> Madara can wreck base Minato in taijutsu only, especially with his Gunbai.


No.  



> Edo Madara easily duplicated Minato's feat of dodging Ei, but Madara's duplication was better, since it was Raikage Ei, not a young Ei. Young Ei wasnt as fast, didnt have Body Flicker, didnt have tailed beasts level chakra. Overall, Ei became much faster/stronger during those years before he became Raikage. Young Ei wasnt in his prime.


When has Madara duplicated Minato's feat? 

Raikage praised Naruto for being the second person who dodged his max shunshin. That's straight from the horses mouth. Apparently now A doesn't know shit about his powers. Being in his prime has nothing to do with being better in every aspect of being a shinobi. He is definitely stronger in his later years. Doesn't mean he is faster. Experience is very important here. 





> Edo Madara's *clones* could react to Raikage.
> 
> Edo Madara easily reacted to Gaara's sand that saved Raikage from Sasuke's Enton.


Nice. Why wouldn't Minato be able to do that again? Jokey boy reacted to Gaara's sand for fuck's sake. Now don't tell me Jokey boy is faster than Minato.



> Edo Madara, in general, had no problems of reacting to 5 Kage.


He was outmaneuvered several times. Sure it didn't work but not because his speed allowed him to react as you say. He just cocooned inside his Susano'o and waited for the kages to make their moves. Or relied on his EDO perks to ignore their attacks. That means that their puny attacks were not a match for his raw superior power and versatility. I remember Madara being "plowed" by Raikage's and Onoki's combined attack. I remember Madara's getting a hole trough his chest from Onoki's jinton, I remember him getting outmaneuvered just before busting out PS by the kage's combined attack.  That was worth shit but not because his speed was something else. Just so much more powerful than them.  



> Edo Madara easily reacted to BM Naruto's clone.


Kakashi reacted to Naruto's clone attack on Obito. Means Kakashi is as fast BM Naruto. Nice logic. 



> And that was Edo Madara. Alive EMS Madara is, overall, more powerfull than his Edo self. Alive Madara can use his full potential and body's capability.
> 
> 
> Alive *aye-less* Madara wrecked both SM Naruto and Sai effortlessly.


EMS Madara is in no way superior to his EDO form. Kabuto said that he  was brought back in an improved form. I don't remember EMS alive Madara being  augmented by Hashi's dna or having a superior doujutsu or ignoring meteors in base. Do you? 

Hashi dna helped Danzou spam Koto several times a day when w/o it the charge was as much as 10 years. Hashi dna helped Obito spam his MS for years w/o experiencing the side effects like the other Uchihas, which included the boss of all Uchihas, Madara. Do i need to keep going with this? 

Not to mention Hashi juice directly improves physical stats. 

My point. It's foolish to compare these version of Madara because they are very very different. 





> And what base Minato did? Defeated Ei and Obito, when both of them were far below their prime? Had problems with young Obito, who almost sucked him in Kamui demention?


See my point about the diffrence between prime and speed. You can be much stronger and yet have the same speed you know.



> None of those is on the same level as Madara's feats.
> 
> And Edo Hashirama, not in his overall full power because of his Edo state, weakened by clones he created, was able to fight Edo Madara on equal terms. Plus, alive Hashirama outran Bijuu Dama from full Kurama.


That's nice and dandy. We're talking about speed here. I never argued that BM Minato wins. Hell i gave both EDO Madara and Hashi the win with mid diff. With FTG and a superior speed BM Minato can prolong this fight beyond his capabilities that's what i am arguing.

Minato also outmaneuvered and blitzed full Kurama twice. How about that huh? Full Kurama didn't even have the time to charge a bijuudama before Minato shunshined across Konoha while also summoning a toad on his head. Looks to me as they have pretty comparable speeds. Just like i said hat the difference is quite negligible in base. I just believe that Minato has a slight edge because being fast is his shtick and Kishi beat that horse more than once. 



> Hashirama also can wreck base Minato in taijutsu only, especially with his Sage Mode.


With SM and its benefits there is no doubt that SM Hashi beats Minato in taijutsu. Never argued otherwise.


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## ARGUS (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> What markings are u taking about ...he can use multiple clones to place marking seals....


a clone evenly divides ur chakra, 
minato using multiple clones and fiiring off TBB at the same time is fanfic at its finest, 


> ur acting as if marking is some long drawn out process where he has to stand still and charge sm...base hashirama was dancing around kyuubisussano this is someone with about the same firepower as shinsensenju ..Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> stop acting like minatos clones will be eradicated....kcm and bm clones far outstrip hashirama in shunshin and they can use ftg....


Marking is a waste of time, since it leaves minato wide open for SS to attack 
minato is either forming markings or,hes fighting hashirama, he cant do both at a time, 

1. if he decides to form markings, then he needs clones, which divide his chakra evenly, however minato spamming TBB with his clones out is just fanfic, and leaves his large kurama avatar wide open for SS  to attack, meaning that he dies, 

2. if he decides to fight Hashirama, he needs TBB, which are just thrown back at his face, with the hands of SS, hell even mokuton hotei hands are sufficient enough to do that, and the AOE of the TBB along with their firepower are damaging minato and eradicating all the marked locatinons and the clones along with it, so everything that minato has done up till now is moot  

and just because i stated that clones are eradicated, doesnt mean that i claimed that hashirama is faster than BM Minato, so half of ur post is irrelevant,
when a characters attacks have such a vast magnitude, added to minatos own firepower which he would need to use, 
means that all the cloens are eradicated on the process, 



> *base minato far eclipses hashirama in shunshin..*


You have to prove this, actually you need to prove this, since feats strongly state otherwise 
blind madara who has speed on par with Base Hashirama nigh blitzed SM naruto,, whereas Base Hashiraam outran even the PS-infused TBB which travelled the entire sea within a second, 
this feat is far above anything that minato has done, 

now add SM to hashirama added to the fact that madara was able to react to FTG with hashiramas SM, goes to the clear conclusion that hashiramas shunshin is superior 

claiming that minatos shunshin is superior just because he is known for his fast speed due to FTG (not shunshin) isnt valid enough, 



> .what part of teleporting bijudama are u missing...minato can teleport bijudama directly onto targets through ftg or spacetime barrir leaving no time for catching and redirecting...
> space time barrier..
> Link removed
> ftg
> Link removed


Minato is not teleporting multiple TBB, when he clearly said he couldnt even teleport 2 TBB from juubito, 
furthermore the S/T barrier only teleports the bomb towards a marked location, 
if there are no marked locations, at a safe location then minato is just hurting himself more  than hes hurting hashirama,



> Link removed hashirama needs to close the distance to use chojo kobetsu he covered the distance at the same speed as kyuubisussano do u think bm minato using shunshin is slower then dat??? and why in gods name would a genius ninja like minato rush headon against shinsensenju when his strongest attacks are ranged?


Do you have any idea how large and long is the arm span for SS? 
the structure dwarves mountains themselves, and its hands span kms in distance, so minato is likely to be in Chojo Kobetsus range throughout the battle 
hashirama uses Chojo Kobetsu and minato gets wrecked 
he is not evading multiple mountain ranges whilst hes in the kurama avatar, 

and like i said, when he uses his ranged attacks  then they are just thrown back at minatos face,,and he gets overwhelmed,  so either way he has no way of combatting SS, and he dies, 
if he tries to run away like a bitch, then his 5min limit of BM runs out, and he dies, 

so whatever you say that minato could do, its not workign here, 



> Minato can summon all the frogs the ritual jirayia used was for sage mode...*kishi confirmed minato can summon all the frogs in both interview and databook*..


Scans or source?, and read above and my previous post why its garbage anyways, 



> minatotrained in senjutsu knows of frog mountain and only fukaksu has been shown as teaching sage mode and knew minato..its ma and pa that use frogsong and the have knowledge...


yeah the same senjutsu that took him several chapters to charge up and minato ended up running out after using only one rasengan, lmao its not doing shit here, 
minato incorporating SM into BM is even more of a fanfic 




> madara could hear hashirama on top of kyuubisussano and hashirama could hear madara on top of shinsensenju ...im coming madara!!! come hashirama! remember...frog song is a long range technique that uses senjutsu enhanced sound...why wouldnt the sound reach when madaras and hashiramas reached?not to mention the frogs are safe in bm avatar and are amped by kyuubi chakra..


if Minatos not in SM, (which he would never get the time to knead the chakra) nor would minato even get to use the ritutal (granted if he could even use it,)
Frog Song is never even getting prepped its just taking him far too long to knead the senjutsu chakra, and its just wasting his time 
Lol if he stays still to enter SM, he is left wide open and would be wasting his time limit to stay in BM, so minato gets raped by Chojo there,  
getting SM to a level of BSM is just fanfic for minato, and if he enters SM just in his base formm then he is getting fodderised by even base hashirama let alone ssomething on the level of SS 
and without SM for minato he is getting affected by frog song much worse for hashirama, 
so either way this whole strategy is a waste of time and effort 



> He* placed a marking hundreds of miles into the sea *considering the size of juubidams blast
> *through his shunshin placed markings for the hokage barrier and teleported the juubidama while no one even registered his presence all the while hashirama didnt even make it to the battle quite a bit later even though they did none of the afromentioned tasks....this was in base
> *


marking to the sea was prior to his death, 
no way in hell is minato placing a marking at an ocean several several kilometres away through his mere shunshin, 
lol thats even too much for 8G guy or RSM naruto, let alone someone of base minato, 

others are just off panel feats and thhe radius of the  markings would be lucky to be sufficient for even 2 TBB Lol 


> He makes clones in bm or kcm clones 1 clone shunshins away and places a marking a miles away like was the case in the sea...he others place markings all over the battlefield.


>he makes clones 
>clones divides his chakra 
>the more he makes the less chakra the original has,meaning that he wont be able to attack at all, 
>with that being said minato dies, 



> .*if we assume minatos bm runs out he can teleport to the seal the clone placed miles away for kurama to put bm back*..


This is BFR at its finest
if minato does that then he automatically loses


> why are you assuming it will be miraculous for minato to place a marking against shinsensenju it is a huge target a mark can be made by sacrificing a kcm clone tagging it through shunshin or ftg kunai..


I didnt say that minato cant do it,
just that its still not helping him, and he dies, 


> Minato was capableof teleporting an attack much larger then the juubi in base...shinsensenju is about the same size as the juubi Link removed he can teleport the buudha to the marker placed by the earlier clone miles away thus rendering hashirama vulnerable..


how many tims do i have to tell you, its all meaningless
iif minato attemppts to come close, he gets slammed by chojo kobetsu (CK), which has the same speed as PS-infused-TBB something thats still faster than the kurama avatar, 

and if miinato attempts to come close in human formm then hes defenseless and hes not evading the AOE of SS attacks either so he would die, 

teleporting something the size of SS is just taking more of his chakra, 
and again, if he teleports him further away , thne minatos only hope of attacking which is TBB, is just slammed back at his face 

so again, whatever you  say that minato could do,  is still not helping him 



> Worst comes to worse minato summons ma and pa keeps his distance through ftg and shunshin and waits for frog song to charge up then he uses frogsong hashirama gets caught in frogsong and its a gameender.


Nope, you're repeating urself alot now, 
already explained why this is the biggest stupidity of all 


> To act like minato is bm naruto is fallacious he is a top tier ninja without bm with one of the most hax utility jutsu in the manga..


look at my tier list and then talk,
i am well aware of the difference between BM minato and BM naruto,
however FTG is still not helping minato much here, and hashirama is still superior to him 



> Link removed
> an emiciated kurama running on empty was able to make a bijudama this size in a sec thats multi mountain range...a fresh bm is capable of making one atleast 3 times that..that teleported onto or near shinsensenju is cauing massive damage..


again, TBB is moot when it can be caught by SS hands, or  mokujin hands, 
Lol at a single TBB cuasing ''massive damage'', Lol one TBB is not causing any damage to SS at all, its durability feats are above the kurama avatars, 
and hashiramas mokutons being an absolute nightmare for minato as well as SS just means that minato loses this, 

any logical person can understand that Hashirama is superior to BM minato, its not too hard to understand this


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> Which are those feats?
> 
> Minato crossing all of Konoha in one shunshin and dropping a toad on Kurama's head before Kurama shot an already completed BD is better than anything they've pulled seriously.



Was it Shunshin, or Hiraishin? Scan please.

Anyway, Hashirama, who is on par with Madara, outran TBB. 



> Praise means nothing? What the hell. That's the author telling you directly that Tobirama was the fastest man alive. You mean to tell me that people would take Tobirama's side against Hashirama and Madara? Because he was praised by people. The same people that praised Hashirama as being strongest man.
> 
> Tobirama faster than BM Minato? You must be jocking. If you really believe that than i have nothing to discuss further with you.



He was praised by characters. Characters can be wrong. Thats why praise proves nothing at all. And Hashirama is the most powerfull shinobi ever aside from 8 gates Guy because of his feats, not because of his praise. 

I can explain why Tobirama has better combat speed and reflexes than BM Minato. I have a proof of that. You, on the other hand, have nothing at all except wanking.



> Hype and praise means nothing at all. Facts and feats are the things to decide who is faster/stronger/better etc. Luckily enough Minato has both of them in spades.



No he doesnt.



> No.



Yes. Because if his superior reflexes and combat speed + EMS precognition. He can knock Minato out in a taijutsu only. 



> When has Madara duplicated Minato's feat?
> 
> Raikage praised Naruto for being the second person who dodged his max shunshin. That's straight from the horses mouth. Apparently now A doesn't know shit about his powers. Being in his prime has nothing to do with being better in every aspect of being a shinobi. He is definitely stronger in his later years. Doesn't mean he is faster. Experience is very important here.



Minato dodged Raikage's punch with his Hiraishin. Madara blocked it with his hands. Raikage even commented that Madara can counter him even with his speed.

So what? Later, Madara blocked his punch.

He is faster. It is logical. He has better feats when he is older (young Raikage is featless). His chakra is bigger. And he has V2 Lightning Armor.

Yep, and 4 Shinobi World War arc. Ei has much more experience than his former, young self.



> Nice. Why wouldn't Minato be able to do that again? Jokey boy reacted to Gaara's sand for fuck's sake. Now don't tell me Jokey boy is faster than Minato.



Because Jokey boy was that fast. Gaara even commented on its speed. And Minato's speed is overrated.



> He was outmaneuvered several times. Sure it didn't work but not because his speed allowed him to react as you say. He just cocooned inside his Susano'o and waited for the kages to make their moves. Or relied on his EDO perks to ignore their attacks. That means that their puny attacks were not a match for his raw superior power and versatility. I remember Madara being "plowed" by Raikage's and Onoki's combined attack. I remember Madara's getting a hole trough his chest from Onoki's jinton, I remember him getting outmaneuvered just before busting out PS by the kage's combined attack. That was worth shit but not because his speed was something else. Just so much more powerful than them.



He was* toying* with them, not fighting at his *full power*. And he also outmaneuvered them more than once.

And raikage was much lighter, thus much faster, because of Oonoki. And he wanted to be hit by Oonoki's Jinton to show 5 Kage Hashirama's DNA face to demoralise them.

And Kage to make a combine attack on them? Again, Madara was toying with them. He knew they cant beat him. He even commented that 5 kage are nothing compared to him.



> Kakashi reacted to Naruto's clone attack on Obito. Means Kakashi is as fast BM Naruto. Nice logic.



Well, Kakashi is very fast indeed.



> EMS Madara is in no way superior to his EDO form. Kabuto said that he was brought back in an improved form. I don't remember EMS alive Madara being augmented by Hashi's dna or having a superior doujutsu or ignoring meteors in base. Do you?
> 
> Hashi dna helped Danzou spam Koto several times a day when w/o it the charge was as much as 10 years. Hashi dna helped Obito spam his MS for years w/o experiencing the side effects like the other Uchihas, which included the boss of all Uchihas, Madara. Do i need to keep going with this?
> 
> ...



He is superior. Kabuto never knew about his prime. And Hashirama commented on his strength that he "regains his full power" after being ressurected. Also, if Madara was beyond his prime, why Hashirama, not at his full power because he also was Edo, with clones around battlefield that also weakened him, was able to fight on par with him and even immobilise him? You have yet to prove Kabuto improved his physical traits. Kabuto could just improve his Hashirama's cells, thats all. 

And Hashriama's DNA has *nothing to do* with speed and reflexes.



> See my point about the diffrence between prime and speed. You can be much stronger and yet have the same speed you know.



Show me young Obito and young Raikage's speed feats. Than we can talk. And it is obvious they improved throughout those years.



> That's nice and dandy. We're talking about speed here. I never argued that BM Minato wins. Hell i gave both EDO Madara and Hashi the win with mid diff. With FTG and a superior speed BM Minato can prolong this fight beyond his capabilities that's what i am arguing.
> 
> Minato also outmaneuvered and blitzed full Kurama twice. How about that huh? Full Kurama didn't even have the time to charge a bijuudama before Minato shunshined across Konoha while also summoning a toad on his head. Looks to me as they have pretty comparable speeds. Just like i said hat the difference is quite negligible in base. I just believe that Minato has a slight edge because being fast is his shtick and Kishi beat that horse more than once.



BM Minato cant defeat Madara, or Hashirama. EMS Madara, Edo Madara, alive Hashirama, Edo hashirama - all of them are superior to any Minato, BM or not.

I dont remember him blitzing Kurama, but i remember Hashirama easily reacting to Kurama and *outrunning* his Bijuu Dama. Kishi made a point Minato has the ebst Shunshin. Thats all. But in fact, he doesnt have feats to compete with aither Hashirama, or Madara in combat speed and reflexes department. 



> With SM and its benefits there is no doubt that SM Hashi beats Minato in taijutsu. Never argued otherwise.



Minato wont even land a hit on SM Hashirama because of his superior speed and reflexes. 

The same thing is with Madara. Those two are on another level.


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## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Minato cant make 4clones with bm and kurama...naruto made 9 kcm clones while in bm..ur making fanfic at its finest..naruto with only the chakra he stole from kurama was able to make 13 kcm clones..markings are so far from a waste of time jesus....;laying markings is not some time consuming process while keeping distance he has to touch the ground to lay marking seals...he can do it while running.....he was praised by tobirama for his quick marking..he laid markings 100 miles into the sea and around juubi before hashi even caught up to him..

base hashirama was dancing around kyuubisussano...bm minato is tiers above in speed.....stop acting like shinsensenju is some speed monster...he blitzed the kyuubi in base from across konoha...he can keep his distance just fine ...you are forgetting he can use ftg too....get this through bm minato has kuramas reserves ..kurama is a constant chakra battery... my point of a clone laying a mark miles away was specifically for the purpose of kurama recoupertating..was base hashirama eradicated against kyuubisussano please enlighten me
minato was blitzing the same kurama from across konoha.. Link removed  he can cross distances as big as villages in an instant with ftg and can blitz around giant constructs...kcm clones arent going to be eradicated ...
base hashirama was dancing around kyuubisussano and have you forgotten the clones can teleport to with ftg  back to bm avatar for safety? so why would they mark the area close to each other they need to put markers at great distance to each other and considering minatos  tactical genius he will do so..
Regarding shinsensenjus durability i was talking about this bijudama a emaciated kurama was able to make one this size..
Link removed
Not to mention bm avatar tanked the juubis laser that ploughed through 11 bijudama and a mountain range same as shinsensenju while that attack was much more concentrated..

Okay seals arent getting destroyed...the ground would get shattered around.. but the seal remains...

Minato couldnt teleport more then two because he had one arm and couldnt utilise spacetime barrier read the manga..space time barrier hasnt been shown to need a marking teleporting an attack with simple ftg does..

what in flying fuck... its in canon that minatos shunshin in base is far above hashirama....tobirama who was known as the fastest man in hahiramas time admitted that his shunshin paled in comparison to minato...minato used shunshin went out to 100 miles to sea layed a kunai...came back laid markings aroun the juubi and teleported the juubidama and after some time hashirama and the hokage made it to the battelefield....this is canon then add bm on top of that ....bm is a much larger power up to speed then sm...and please stop giving sm hashirama sm madaras feats...sm hashirama was full of blackrods stabbed into him by edo madara..edo madara outperformed him in cqc..

Link removed
Link removed

Fact is shinsensenju needs to get in range to use his fist barrage its canon....and its speed is about the same as the kyuubi...
Link removed
 minato was blitzing kyuubi across konoha in base minato is more then capable of keeping distance using bm...shinsensenju is not faster then him..

Now ur just being unreasonable....how da fk is minato supposed to premark a rock in the sea in the middle of fkn nowhere...while the much more likely scenario is sensing the juubis chakra minato shunshined out and lay a marker in the sea as is his tactics..

shinsensenju is a giant target all minato needs is to lad one mark on it through clones or an ftg kunai...the giant bijudama will then be teleported directly onto shinsensenju likes the juubidama.. no time to catch anything..it will hit him and explode get it...he is using his clone after the match to lay a marker miles away.. after the battle starts he is not teleporting home to some prepped tag//...do u count use of kamui bfr? kurama can quickly recouperate the bm avatar while teleporting to the marker miles away..not to mention ontce bm avatar goes he is still in kcm..and he is more then capable of keeping his distance using ftg and shunshin considering base hashi was dancing around kyuubisussano..

If shinsensenju is teleported hashirama is not summoning another one considering he was so exhausted after that he fought madara in cqc..he teleported the giant juubidama in base casually...if he summons the woodgolem after a simple bijudama explosion eradicates that and wooddragon..which bm avatar can easily tank..
Link removed
Link removed
not to mention minato can still use this..
Link removed

without shinsensenju hashirama is very much vulnerable to bm minatos basic speed and attacks..


Read my post learn reading comprehension i did not once say he go,s into sage mode...he has no need to go into sage mode summoning ma and pa do not require going into sagemode....the ritual jiraiyia used was for gathering natural energy to enter sage mode...he was an imperfect sage..minato while in bm has massive reserves easily capable of summoning ma and pa...so once frog song is used its a game ender..kishi confirmed that minato can summon all the toads here.. pa knew minato and said that naruto had surpassed minato and jirayia in sage mode why do u think that is?maybe because he taught minato senjutsu?

Kishi himself solidified this in an interview..not to mention its in the databook..
Q. How do you choose the characters' names?
A. I think about Japanese nouns and decide which ones might be good as names.

Q. What character would you like as your girlfriend?
A. No one. It's characters I create, after all...

Q. If you were a girl, who would you like as your boyfriend?
A. Shikamaru. He's smart and looks like he might be successful in life.
--------------------
--------------------
**About the characters**

Q. Do members of Akatsuki pairs sleep somewhere at night?
A. They get two single rooms.

Q. Now that Gaara doesn't have the Ichibi anymore he's unable to use the sand, right?
A. Both the sand and the rings around his eyes are there for good, they can't be taken away.

Q. If a Hyuuga and an Uchiha had a child together, what eyes would s/he get?
A. His right eye would be a Sharingan. Meaning that the left one would be a Byakugan!

Q. If I drank Suigetsu would I get diarrhea?
A. He would just come out from your bottom.

Q. Why is Naruto able to summon Gamakichi if he signed the contract with Gamabunta?
A. Because signing a contract with Gamabunta means that he's able to summon not only him but any toad.

Q. What is Naruto's "new erotic ninjutsu"...?
A. I'd like to draw it one day. I can do it anytime, I just need the editor's approvali.
reveal 

Any reasonable person who actually looks at minatos skillset and realises that minato without bm is a toptier ninja much superior to base naruto and has a very real shot at beating hashirama ..a the threat of ateleporting kurama is greatly understated..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Minato cant make 4clones with bm and kurama...naruto made 9 kcm clones while in bm..ur making fanfic at its finest..naruto with only the chakra he stole from kurama was able to make 13 kcm clones..markings are so far from a waste of time jesus....;laying markings is not some time consuming process while keeping distance he has to touch the ground to lay marking seals...he can do it while running.....base hashirama was dancing around kyuubisussano...bm minato is tiers above in speed.....stop acting like shinsensenju is some speed monster...he blitzed the kyuubi in base from across konoha...he can keep his distance just fine ...you are forgetting he can use ftg too....get this through bm minato has kuramas reserves ..kurama is a constant chakra battery... my point of a clone laying a mark miles away was specifically for the purpose of kurama recoupertating..was base hashirama eradicated against kyuubisussano please enlighten me
> minato was blitzing the same kurama from across konoha.. and have you forgotten the clones can teleport to with ftg  back to bm avatar for safety? so why would they mark the area close to each other they need to put markers at great distance to each other and considering minatos  tactical genius he will do so..
> Regarding shinsensenjus durability i was talking about this bijudama a emaciated kurama was able to make one this size..
> Link removed
> ...



So much stupidity that i dont know if i will comment that or not.


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## Sorin (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Was it Shunshin, or Hiraishin? Scan please.
> 
> Anyway, Hashirama, who is on par with Madara, outran TBB.



So how was it hiraishin?  He needs a marker for that. He appeared 100 meters in the air. If he teleported to a mark then he would a lot closer to the ground. 

So tell me what is the logical conclusion. Did Minato use hiraishin, appeared in front of Kurama, then shunshined 100 meters in the air, used food cart destroyer before Kurama's bd had time to fully charged? Occam's razor says that we must accept the most simple explanation in this case. He shunshined.

Actually, scratch that. That's even more impressive. Reactions must be crazy to process all of that in such short time. 

BTW can you show me what has this bijuudama done that is so impressive speed wise? because you keep bringing that feat and i don't really recall anyone being blitzed. You like to bring feats into discussion and yet you haven't provided any proof that bd is such a fast attack that character like Minato or Raikage can't do such things. 




> He was praised by characters. Characters can be wrong. Thats why praise proves nothing at all. And Hashirama is the most powerfull shinobi ever aside from 8 gates Guy because of his feats, not because of his praise.







> I can explain why Tobirama has better combat speed and reflexes than BM Minato. I have a proof of that. You, on the other hand, have nothing at all except wanking.



No, i have proof. Again coming form the horses mouth. Tobirama admitted several times that Minato was better than him at everything speed related. He complimented him on his use of hiraishin and he even outright stated that his shunshin is superior to his.

Before you accuse someone of wanking, please provide your proof 






> Yes. Because if his superior reflexes and combat speed + EMS precognition. He can knock Minato out in a taijutsu only.



Base taijutsu only Madara defeats alive or BM Minato with all of his jutsu? 

So basically Minato would just die like the fodders at the beginning of the fight between him Gaara and Onoki?  You accuse people of wanking and yet you make claims like these. 

I won't even continue replying to your post since your opinion of Minato is so low that you put him at the level of nameless fodders. 

Let's just agree to disagree. I don't care enough about Minato or Madara or Hashirama here to try to make you change your mind.

Wish you a nice day.


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## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> So much stupidity that i dont know if i will comment that or not.



..............dont talk about stupidity the irony is too severe...


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> So how was it hiraishin? He needs a marker for that. He appeared 100 meters in the air. If he teleported to a mark then he would a lot closer to the ground.
> 
> So tell me what is the logical conclusion. Did Minato use hiraishin, appeared in front of Kurama, then shunshined 100 meters in the air, used food cart destroyer before Kurama's bd had time to fully charged? Occam's razor says that we must accept the most simple explanation in this case. He shunshined.
> 
> ...



I remember that. Well, is full Kurama so fast? Does he have an impressive speed and reflexes? 

What was so impressive about Kurama's speed and his TBB's when he fought Minato? 

I dont know. Its up to you to write what's so impressive about that. And TBB that Hashirama outran was fast enough to travel great water distances. But thats not his main speed feat. He fought *alive EMS Madara* on par and beat him 2 times. That is why he is superior to base Minato in combat speed and reflexes.



> No, i have proof. Again coming form the horses mouth. Tobirama admitted several times that Minato was better than him at everything speed related. He complimented him on his use of hiraishin and he even outright stated that his shunshin is superior to his.
> 
> Before you accuse someone of wanking, please provide your proof



Why so many people continue to bring that up when Tobirama *NEVER* told *ANYTHING* about his *SPEED *compared to Minato's? He admitted Minato was better at Hiraishin and Shunshin. So what? Tobirama still has better combat speed and reflexes. 

And now my proof. Tobirama put a FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito when they were close enough. BM Minato did nothing, was easily blitzed and lost his arm. And that was *BM* Minato. 



> Base taijutsu only Madara defeats alive or BM Minato with all of his jutsu?
> 
> So basically Minato would just die like the fodders at the beginning of the fight between him Gaara and Onoki? You accuse people of wanking and yet you make claims like these.
> 
> ...



Base taijutsu EMS Madara can beat base Minato with taijutsu only, not BM Minato. 

And i never stated he will die like a fodder. Minato is not a fodder at all. He is a kage-level shinobi.

But Madara can definetely knock him out. He is better in taijutsu, has better combat speed and reflexes, has EMS precognition and knows about Hiraishin technique. 



> ..............dont talk about stupidity the irony is too severe...



You replied to me second time. Thats cool.


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## ARGUS (Dec 20, 2014)

@Sabre - i suggest you to read my post, and properly counter what exactly i said, 
because ur repeating the same things over and over again which i have already countered, and it seems that ur in denial now,


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> @Sabre - i suggest you to read my post, and properly counter what exactly i said,
> because ur repeating the same things over and over again which i have already countered, and it seems that ur in denial now,



I suggest you read my post carefully and not the first two lines.. I have read your post carefully and countered ur arguments to the pinpoint im afraid ur in denial... for someone to claim that hashirama has superior shunshin then minato is straight up denial of massive porportions....


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

@Sabre - man, you are wanking too much. Your arguements were countered countless times.

Prove that Minato puting markings in the sea as a *BATTLE PREPARATION* is a legit speed feat. Prove that his speed feats as BM are good enough to put him higher than Hashirama, who can fight eqully with Madara.

Because up to this time, you proved nothing. Puting marks as a battle preparation (by the way, they could have been there for a long time since Minato was alive) is such a good speed feat? LOL. Geting ass-whooped by Juubito on whom Tobirama put FTG mark and explosive tags is such a good speed feat? Teleporting a Bijuu Dama that was already *slowed down drastically* by 8 Tails is such a cool speed feat? 

Edo Hashirama beats Edo Minato. Plain and simple.


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> @Sabre - man, you are wanking too much. Your arguements were countered countless times.
> 
> Prove that Minato puting markings in the sea as a *BATTLE PREPARATION* is a legit speed feat. Prove that his speed feats as BM are good enough to put him higher than Hashirama, who can fight eqully with Madara.
> 
> ...



Mate im gonna take the advise of many people here and im gonna ignore you as the others have done debating with you hurts ones intelligence..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Mate im gonna take the advise of many people here and im gonna ignore you as the others have done debating with you hurts ones intelligence..



And it seems you lost this debate.


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## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> And it seems you lost this debate.



Yup u win all ur debates not by providing facts decent arguments or through manga knowledge through....its because us poor souls have to think of the preservation of our sanity..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Yup u win all ur debates not by providing facts decent arguments or through manga knowledge through....



I provided more than enough facts and decent arguements in our debates.


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