# MS Madara vs MS Itachi



## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

location : Sasuke vs Itachi
Distance : 30 metres
Knowledge : Full
Ristrections : nothing

Feats for MS Madara :
- can use all Uchiha Kinjutsu (izanami , izanagi)
- Same Katon mastery as EMS Madara
- Same Taijutsu , Kenjutsu , Speed , and physical states as EMS Madara
- less precog than EMS Madara
- Chakra and Stamina scaled down from EMS Madara
- Madara has his Gunbai and Kama


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> - Chakra and Stamina scaled down from EMS Madara


To be fair why would we have less chakra and stamina

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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> To be fair why would we have less chakra and stamina


No Izuna's eyes ???


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No Izuna's eyes ???


I don't think EMS gives you more chakra. If you mean the limits on MS usage? Then I guess since Madara had special chakra, he should have MS usage for longer than Sasuke did (Sasuke who used Amaterasu x 5, Enton x 2, MS Genjutsu x 5, Susanoo against Raikage (V1), Gaara (V2), Mei (V1), Danzo (V1 - V3) and Kakashi (V4) ) or maybe same since they were both Indra's Transmigrant.


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I don't think EMS gives you more chakra. If you mean the limits on MS usage? Then I guess since Madara had special chakra, he should have MS usage for longer than Sasuke did (Sasuke who used Amaterasu x 5, Enton x 2, MS Genjutsu x 5, Susanoo against Raikage (V1), Gaara (V2), Mei (V1), Danzo (V1 - V3) and Kakashi (V4) ) or maybe same since they were both Indra's Transmigrant.



Madara should have more chakra level than Sasuke or Itachi , a lot more i might add 
He was able to control Kurama with 3TS only , while someone like Obito needed Hashirama's cells to do so

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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Madara should have more chakra level than Sasuke or Itachi , a lot more i might add
> He was able to control Kurama with 3TS only , while someone like Obito needed Hashirama's cells to do so


Exactly. Sasuke even had much more chakra than Itachi. Even if he didn't, his MS lasted longer on panel. Even when you take Itachi's Part 1 MS Usage into account.

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## Jay2016 (Jul 1, 2016)

Madara. Itachi seemed to nnot have the chakra capabilities to spam susanoo like Madara.


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Exactly. Sasuke even had much more chakra than Itachi. Even if he didn't, his MS lasted longer on panel. Even when you take Itachi's Part 1 MS Usage into account.


Keep in mind , Itachi still has a susanoo with legendary weapons , and Amaterau which is > any Katon


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## Jay2016 (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm just going off EMS madara bc we have no inntel on Ms madara. I'm pretty sure the legless susanoo is his Ms version which looks far stronger but the legendary weapons could be a problem. Don't think Amaterau will be mucch of a problem bc it will be a susanoo battle and he doesn't have the ability to manipulate it.

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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Keep in mind , Itachi still has a susanoo with legendary weapons , and Amaterasu which is > any Katon



*Spoiler*: __ 







> Amaterasu produces black flames at the focal point of the user's vision.[3] In most situations, this makes Amaterasu impossible to avoid. However, if the target can move fast enough to prevent being focused on, Amaterasu will miss them when it's cast.[4] Once created, it can continue burning for seven days and seven nights. The flames cannot be extinguished with water or any other normal methods;[5]only the user can put the flames out.[6] Said to be "the fires from hell" and to burn as hot as the sun itself,[1] Amaterasu burns basically any material — other flames included — until nothing but ash remains.[7] However, the flames cannot burn through chakra or materials infused with chakra, as they failed to burn into Naruto's chakra cloak,[8] or through Gaara's chakra-infused sand.[9]
> 
> Amaterasu does not ordinarily require hand seals to be performed, though Sasuke Uchiha once used the Tiger hand seal, which is common for fire techniques.[10] This technique can also be within the Sharingan of another person.[11] Beyond mere offence, Amaterasu's flames can be used as a deterrent, with users surrounding themselves in its flames to discourage physical attacks.[12]
> 
> Use of this technique puts a great deal of strain on the user, usually causing their eyes to bleed. For all its lethal potential, Amaterasu burns fairly slowly, allowing targets to remove burning clothes before their body is caught ablaze or, if it's too late for that, remove the burning body part(s) before it spreads.[13] Other defensive options are ,[14] ,[15] certain ,[16] or being the  of the .[17] While impractical as a defence, Amaterasu can also be .






The battle probably goes like this:
Madara opens with Fire Style: Great Fire Annihilation (as he did in canon - Link removed), and Itachi (who needed Amaterasu to counter a much smaller Katon - Link removed) neutralises it with Amaterasu (Link removed), as per canon, and as per canon, he fires another burst, but Madara, upon seeing the fabled eternal flame of Amaterasu, realises this is going to be a Mangekyo Battle, so activates Susano'o, and when Itachi recovers from MS drawbacks and fires a second burst (which "took a lot out of him" in his battle with Sasuke), it hits Susanoo, which it cannot burn through, and fails to hit Madara (who maybe would have had the speed to dodge it anyway or just remove his armour), and while Itachi is on the ground (Link removed), Madara uses his speed (which allowed him to blitz War Arc SM Naruto, one faster than the version that was messing Pain {who is faster than Itachi} about Link removed and react to V1 Raikage Link removed to get over to Itachi and attempt to grab him with Susano'o (which forced V1 Ei on the defensive Link removed and caught him Link removed and crush him. If Itachi has recovered enough to use Susano'o by then, then he blocks of course, and then it becomes a battle of attrition, in which Madara wins due to having a stronger Susano'o with more chakra. Even if you wanted to argue Totsuka could pierce Susano'o (no proof - people use the argument "Totsuka is ethereal and has no physical form", yet it cut a snake's head off, so does have physical form, and is just a chakra blade, with no feats to suggest it can pierce a Susano'o Byakugo Tsunade [whom was much, much, much stronger than Byakugo Sakura by virtue of Hashirama's statement] could not put a scratch on, but only knock down), Madara can still move out of his Susano'o and use the Susano'o as a decoy so that when Itachi is sealing it (both times Totsuka was used, it took 4 whole manga pages for the sealing to complete), he can make another Susano'o and attack. But Madara's Susano'o (which used Shunshin like movements Link removed - Link removed alongside pressuring and catching the Raikage) is fast enough to dodge that sword anyway (which has only hit immobilized opponents on panel). Plus, Madara evaded Jinton twice on panel, so Totsuka is useless. Itachi's done for already and that's without taking Uchiha Gaeshi (which turned back a Tailed Beast Bomb Rasengan - Link removed) and Gunbai Barrier Jutsu (which deflected giant chakra rods thrown by the Hachibi - Link removed) into account. Totsuka is not touching him but even if it did, he even has two eyes to use Izanagi (Madara showed Izanagi on panel Link removed) with if Totsuka some how touched him in this battle. And we know he needs no eyes to use Susano'o (because he is Madara, or Asspulldara I should say) and Tsukuyomi is easily broken as Madara is a Sharingan possessing ninja with Uchiha blood running in his veins, and is a competent Shinobi, with more willpower than Part 1 Kakashi, more years of experience under the belt, Genjutsu-mastery of a level to subdue Kurama (albeit he did this with EMS) and probable knowledge on the technique (he knew Amaterasu and could even use Kamui, with even Tobirama having knowledge on Enton), not that this would even become a CQC + Genjutsu battle, as Madara favours ninjutsu, and being the stronger, more versatile (somewhat) fighter with more options, is the one that will get to make the choice on how they battle and control the fight. Yata Mirror makes this slightly problematic, but with a battle of attrition, Madara wins Mid-High Diff. Probably Mid Diff. Honestly there is not much difference between EMS Madara and MS Madara. The only difference is EMS Madara would be able to use Susano'o for longer, has better precognition, and Perfect Susano'o of course.

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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Madara opens with Fire Style: Great Fire Annihilation (as he did in canon - Link removed), and Itachi (who needed Amaterasu to counter a much smaller Katon - Link removed) neutralises it with Amaterasu


Do you , know how how larg is Madara's Great fire annihilation ??
It's as big as the JUUBI !
Itachi would die of exauhstion if he try to cover the huge AOE of Madara's Katon with Amaterasu , he needs Susanoo here


IzayaOrihara said:


> which allowed him to blitz War Arc SM Naruto,


Wasn't exactly a blitz , Naruto was able to Shield his body with his arms before Madara reach him , but still !


IzayaOrihara said:


> albeit he did this with MS)


Pretty sure he only used 3TS for that


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 1, 2016)

3TS to control Kyuubi?

Anyway: I've never really thought much about this fight, but you have to restrict Madara to make it fair. Restrict Mangekyo and he still beats Itachi.

Tsukuyomi: he is an Uchiha with Sharingan + he has Genjutsu mastery + he has knowledge on the technique + his willpower is more competent than Part 1 Kakashi's.
Amaterasu: reacted to Ei who dodged Amaterasu, so can put his Gunbai up to block the flame with a chakra barrier or absorb and return it with Uchihagaeshi. Can even dodge it since he outsped SM Naruto and could remove his armour if it hits.
Susano'o: Totsuka is easily side-stepped as not only is it not as fast as Raikage or Tobirama, who Madara also reacted to, but Madara is not immobile like Yamata, a big target also, or Edo Nagato, so he dodges it and even has precog. After realising Yata Mirror isn't going to let Katon through, he dances around Susano'o using his SM Naruto/Tobirama/Raikage/SM Hashirama level speed and reactions until Itachi is exhausted and blind like what happened when Kakashi faced Sasuke under the bridge after the Danzo fight.
And then he roasts Itachi with Katon.
Honestly, I never realised how strong Madara was, even without the Mangekyo. Even 3TS Madara can beat Itachi. Maybe its cos he's designed to counter him who knows. Would 3TS Madara beat Kisame or Deidara? Or even one of the Sannin?

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## Bonly (Jul 1, 2016)

So basically this is EMS Madara with scaled down chakra(to what lvl I've got no clue), no legged+PS, less pre-cog(to what lvl I've got no clue), Kurama restricted(I'm assuming) and the added bonus of Izanami? If so then this is basically gonna come down to a stamina contest eventually upon which I'd favor Madara


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## Sapherosth (Jul 2, 2016)

Madara should win because he has larger chakra reserves and can outlast Itachi. 

Tsukuyomi shouldn't be able to do much to Madara because of MS and Uchiha Blood. 
Amateratsu may prove to be a problem, but as long as Madara has Susano it should protect him long enough to end the fight or he can just turn it off. 

Tosuka/Yata will give Itachi's Susano the edge in terms of defense and offense, with the addition of V4 Susano which Madara hasn't showed yet, but I am sure he has access to it. 

All in all, Madara should take this more times than not, but if he messes around he'll get Tosuka stabbed or get himself in Izanami loop.


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## Android (Jul 2, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> All in all, Madara should take this more times than not, but if he messes around he'll get Tosuka stabbed or get himself in Izanami loop.


Yep , this is smart note , if Madara is dicking around , he gets low diffed


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 2, 2016)

Madara should win, his physical prowess is superior in all aspects and he has a stronger Susanoo. He should be able to resist Tsukuyomi, block Amaterasu with his Susanoo, and deal with Itachi's Susanoo with his own.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 2, 2016)

Madara Mid Difficulty at best.

He is quite superior to Itachi in most ways,bar Genjutsu probably.


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## KiNGPiN (Jul 3, 2016)

damn it @cctr9 , I was about to make this thread :[


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 4, 2016)

When they dump their bullshit and start using their Susano, Itachi will win due to Totsuka.


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## Raiken (Jul 4, 2016)

This is MS Madara's best feat.

He's mostly featless haha.

But to be fair, he's still probably stronger than MS Itachi with downscaling.
If Adult EMS Madara >>> Teen EMS Sasuke
Maybe Young Adult EMS Madara > Teen EMS Sasuke

It's probably something like this:

VotE EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi >> Clan Era EMS Madara > MS Madara = EMS Sasuke = MS Edo-Itachi => Healthy MS Itachi => MS Sasuke = Ill MS Itachi

Madara wins High Diff


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## Android (Jul 4, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> MS Madara = EMS Sasuke


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2016)

Based off of what MS Madara had displayed prior to obtaining the EMS, Itachi should be noticeably superior. While Blind and on his Deathbed, he could manifest a V4 Susano'o whereas Madara upon obtaining the EMS could only manifest a V3 Susano'o. I think that alone implies that there's a noticeable gap between the two and I'd reckon that Itachi could defeat MS Madara based on how well he performed against a Rinnegan user (Nagato) with the Rinnegan being a superior Dojutsu of course.


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## ARGUS (Jul 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Based off of what MS Madara had displayed prior to obtaining the EMS, Itachi should be noticeably superior. While Blind and on his Deathbed, he could manifest a V4 Susano'o *whereas Madara upon obtaining the EMS could only manifest a V3 Susano'o. *I think that alone implies that there's a noticeable gap between the two and I'd reckon that Itachi could defeat MS Madara based on how well he performed against a Rinnegan user (Nagato) with the Rinnegan being a superior Dojutsu of course.


bold is baseless 
Itachi obtained V4. Sasuke obtained V4 in MS 
Madara does it too 
And his V4 >> Itachi or sasukes given the sheer size and strength difference


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Based off of what MS Madara had displayed prior to obtaining the EMS, Itachi should be noticeably superior. While Blind and on his Deathbed, he could manifest a V4 Susano'o whereas Madara upon obtaining the EMS could only manifest a V3 Susano'o. I think that alone implies that there's a noticeable gap between the two and I'd reckon that Itachi could defeat MS Madara based on how well he performed against a Rinnegan user (Nagato) with the Rinnegan being a superior Dojutsu of course.


 Not at all sure where you got that idea from. The only real difference between MS Madara and EMS Madara is that he would go blind with continued MS usage and would have slightly lesser ocular prowess. Other than that, he's still much stronger in every aspect except for Genjutsu which he can counter and see through. He'd also have a V4 Susanoo, which based on what we've seen is significantly larger and stronger than any other. As for the last part, he literally was only able to do that due to Kabuto not being aware that Nagato was a sensor and thus his sensing was conveniently turned off.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> bold is baseless
> *Itachi obtained V4. Sasuke obtained V4 in MS *
> Madara does it too
> And his V4 >> Itachi or sasukes given the sheer size and strength difference



The bold is not baseless. The rest is baseless. His V4 Susano'o was only superior to Itachi's and Sasuke's based on Madara's training and increased chakra potency resulting from his Eternal Mangekyo. Think of it like this, if Adult EMS Sasuke was implied to be able to surpass EMS Madara, then that obviously means that EMS users can improve leagues beyond what they were initially capable of upon awakening the EMS. Madara could only manifest a V3 Susano'o upon awakening the EMS from what was shown, so his feats that you're listing was done from EMS Madara who improved significantly since then which aligns perfectly to EMS users being able to improve significantly much like what was implied for Sasuke.

Aside from that, EMS Madara, * upon awakening the EMS * was only shown to be able to use a V3 Susano'o to fight Hashirama at the time. This isn't baseless, that's exactly what was shown.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Not at all sure where you got that idea from. *The only real difference between MS Madara and EMS Madara is that he would go blind with continued MS usage and would have slightly lesser ocular prowess. *Other than that, he's still much stronger in every aspect except for Genjutsu which he can counter and see through. He'd also have a V4 Susanoo, which based on what we've seen is significantly larger and stronger than any other. As for the last part, he literally was only able to do that due to Kabuto not being aware that Nagato was a sensor and thus his sensing was conveniently turned off.



Really? So you also think the difference between MS Sasuke and EMS Sasuke is that he will not go blind with continuous MS Usage and have * slightly lesser * ocular prowess? C'mon, let's not resort to such silly arguments. We all know that EMS users are far stronger than MS users, this isn't even up for debate. 

As for the rest, you're listing feats solely exclusive to EMS Madara who not only had enhanced chakra potency, but also significant training. Both Madara and Hashirama displayed vast improvements during their battle at the VoTE, so I'm confused why you're using what Madara displayed with his V4 Susano'o to prove that MS Madara is superior to MS Itachi.

As for the last part, no, this is such a baseless argument that I won't entertain it. Nagato's sensing wasn't conveniently turned off and I still fail to see how Kabuto not having knowledge on it would prevent Nagato from being able to use it. All Edo Tensei does is have the controlled bodies function based on a command that Kabuto inputs to the talisman, but it doesn't restrict any of the fighter's from using their full power. Either way, Kabuto admitted that Shared Vision was the only way Nagato could win due to lack of mobility, something that Itachi dispatched of very quickly, so Itachi for the most part, could handle Nagato's Rinnegan just fine outside of Chibaku Tensei.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Really? So you also think the difference between MS Sasuke and EMS Sasuke is that he will not go blind with continuous MS Usage and have * slightly lesser * ocular prowess? C'mon, let's not resort to such silly arguments. We all know that EMS users are far stronger than MS users, this isn't even up for debate.


 Yeah, because they can now freely spam MS because they no longer go blind and the chakra consumption is significantly reduced.



> As for the rest, you're listing feats solely exclusive to EMS Madara who not only had enhanced chakra potency, but also significant training. Both Madara and Hashirama displayed vast improvements during their battle at the VoTE, so I'm confused why you're using what Madara displayed with his V4 Susano'o to prove that MS Madara is superior to MS Itachi.


 Enhanced chakra potency? Significant training? Where are you getting this from? There was no indication that EMS enhances your chakra and that Madara trained a whole lot within that time spam. We barely even saw their battles beforehand, so I'm not sure what you're basing this on.



> As for the last part, no, this is such a baseless argument that I won't entertain it. Nagato's sensing wasn't conveniently turned off and I still fail to see how Kabuto not having knowledge on it would prevent Nagato from being able to use it. All Edo Tensei does is have the controlled bodies function based on a command that Kabuto inputs to the talisman, but it doesn't restrict any of the fighter's from using their full power. Either way, Kabuto admitted that Shared Vision was the only way Nagato could win due to lack of mobility, something that Itachi dispatched of very quickly, so Itachi for the most part, could handle Nagato's Rinnegan just fine outside of Chibaku Tensei.


 That's simply stupidity on Kabuto's part then, he did completely ignore Itachi to begin with. Nagato's one of the best natural sensors in the Manga, and he very clearly was not aware of Itachi in both situations when he got the jump on Nagato. Stop lying to yourself, the only reason Itachi was not trashed by Nagato is because of plot-induced stupidity.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah, because they can now freely spam MS because they no longer go blind and the chakra consumption is significantly reduced.



And you haven't addressed the idea of MS users having * slightly lesser * ocular prowess than EMS users. You know that's simply not true given what EMS Sasuke was capable of compared to MS Sasuke. This is something you still failed to address.



> Enhanced chakra potency? Significant training? Where are you getting this from? There was no indication that EMS enhances your chakra and that Madara trained a whole lot within that time spam. We barely even saw their battles beforehand, so I'm not sure what you're basing this on.



Dojutsu is a reflection of the user's chakra. A Superior Dojutsu would obviously reflect a superior Chakra and that's literally the case because EMS users not only have their own chakras, but also their brother's chakra as well which would yield a greater quality of chakra as opposed to having their own chakra to work with.

Aside from that, EMS Madara at VoTE has far superior feats than he did prior to the establishment of Konoha, so it's certainly a reasonable assumption that he partook in significant training, not to mention that it's ridiculousto believe that he was sitting on his ass when he had a grudge against Konoha and wanted to fight Hashirama all out. You're correct that we barely saw their battles before-hand, but we cannot use VOTE Madara's feats for MS Madara based on the fact that not only are EMS users far superior to MS users, but the fact that EMS Madara could only manifest a V3 Susano'o upon awakening it.



> That's simply stupidity on Kabuto's part then, he did completely ignore Itachi to begin with. Nagato's one of the best natural sensors in the Manga, and he very clearly was not aware of Itachi in both situations when he got the jump on Nagato. Stop lying to yourself, the only reason Itachi was not trashed by Nagato is because of plot-induced stupidity.



Actually it's not because even some of the best sensors in the entire manga have skimmed over things that they clearly shouldn't have. Itachi managed to do what he did simply because he was capable of doing so.

Let me ask you, did Kishimoto ever downgrade Itachi's feat in any sort of way? Quite the contrary actually. Kishimoto had Kabuto highlight the fact that Itachi's ability to counter Shared Vision was the reason Nagato lost the match. You can try to make up baseless assumptions such as Nagato lacking his sensing capabilities, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Kishimoto highlighted Itachi's feat rather than downgrade it the way you're doing.

The only reason why you think Itachi was not trashed by Nagato was because you're so biased against Itachi, not being of plot-induced stupidity. Quite frankly, I won't entertain that logic, especially when you use that same logic to challenge established facts in the manga such as Itachi's superiority over Orochimaru. I simply won't entertain it if you literally think it was chalked down to plot-induced stupidity.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> And you haven't addressed the idea of MS users having * slightly lesser * ocular prowess than EMS users. You know that's simply not true given what EMS Sasuke was capable of compared to MS Sasuke. This is something you still failed to address.


 I was referring to their lack of Choku Tomoe, and no longer going blind. What EMS Sasuke was capable of in comparison was due to him no longer going blind and having stronger eyes, like I said before. 





> Dojutsu is a reflection of the user's chakra. A Superior Dojutsu would obviously reflect a superior Chakra and that's literally the case because EMS users not only have their own chakras, but also their brother's chakra as well which would yield a greater quality of chakra as opposed to having their own chakra to work with.


 The difference is negligible though at best, it's not even significant.



> Aside from that, EMS Madara at VoTE has far superior feats than he did prior to the establishment of Konoha, so it's certainly a reasonable assumption that he partook in significant training, not to mention that it's ridiculousto believe that he was sitting on his ass when he had a grudge against Konoha and wanted to fight Hashirama all out. You're correct that we barely saw their battles before-hand, but we cannot use VOTE Madara's feats for MS Madara based on the fact that not only are EMS users far superior to MS users, but the fact that EMS Madara could only manifest a V3 Susano'o upon awakening it.


  But like I said, how do you know this? He has next to no feats from before Konoha's establishment and him gaining EMS, so how the hell do you use that as the basis of your argument. As far as we know, there was no indication that he or anyone partook in any significant training at the time so they did not. 





> Actually it's not because even some of the best sensors in the entire manga have skimmed over things that they clearly shouldn't have. Itachi managed to do what he did simply because he was capable of doing so.
> 
> Let me ask you, did Kishimoto ever downgrade Itachi's feat in any sort of way? Quite the contrary actually. Kishimoto had Kabuto highlight the fact that Itachi's ability to counter Shared Vision was the reason Nagato lost the match. You can try to make up baseless assumptions such as Nagato lacking his sensing capabilities, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Kishimoto highlighted Itachi's feat rather than downgrade it the way you're doing.
> 
> The only reason why you think Itachi was not trashed by Nagato was because you're so biased against Itachi, not being of plot-induced stupidity. Quite frankly, I won't entertain that logic, especially when you use that same logic to challenge established facts in the manga such as Itachi's superiority over Orochimaru. I simply won't entertain it if you literally think it was chalked down to plot-induced stupidity.


 He actually also highlighted that his lack of mobility was also an important factor.  But the main reason I am arguing this is because most things involving Itachi are plot-induced stupidity and simply bullshit, Kishimoto is an Itachi wanker and makes up excuses to make him look better than he actually is. Nagato is so good at sensing that even while he is critically ill and controlling the Six Paths of Pain in combat, he could detect other sensors trying to sense him and alter his signature so that they could not sense him. Upon being reincarnated, he could seemingly with no effort sense Naruto's approach, sense Itachi building up chakra in his eye, and out of the entire Edo Tensei Army and Shinobi Alliance was the only one who could sense Kabuto's exact location through a sensor-proof barrier. Yet, when he is pit up against Naruto, B, and Itachi. He forgets that Itachi is there and thus Itachi is allowed to leap in to save the day, and is then the one that puts Nagato down through a simple smokescreen. Then there is his fight against Kabuto, when Kabuto can literally easily troll his whole goddamn arsenal but he conveniently has a Jutsu we never heard of that is the perfect counter to Kabuto. If you cannot see the problem here, then you're clearly lost to Itachi's wanking syndrome. But anyway, this is MS Madara vs. Ms Itachi, so I'll focus more on that.


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Nagato's sensing wasn't conveniently turned off and I still fail to see how Kabuto not having knowledge on it would prevent Nagato from being able to use it


What the fuck ? 
Kabuto did not even know how to freaking control Nagato , the idiot did not even know what a Chibaku tensei was called .
I laughed my ass off when he said : " oh yeah , he has that moon making jutsu " 
We know for a fact that Nagato is a super sunsor , when he wasn't controlled he could sense Naruto and Bee , and Kabuto's secret place , and Itachi's amaterasu . All in one chapter .
Where the fuck was his sensing when Kabuto took control over him ? 
Kabuto , controlling A the 3rd was fooled by a freaking rubber ball from Dodai .
A freaking rubber ball 
Kabuto , via Nagato was focusing on Naruto and Bee most of the time , he didn't even give any attention to Itachi .
Without :
- Kabuto's stupidity .
- Naruto and bee distracting Nagato .
- Naruto's FRS and Bee's TBB , Itachi would've been Nagato's bitch .


Isaiah13000 said:


> he could detect other sensors trying to sense him


Not only this but he could hide his chakra signatures that even a sensor like Naruto , who has a country level sensing had to pierce himself with a Black Receiver to sense him .
Not only this but he was also able to troll all of Konoha's secret force , that consists of bunsh of byakugan users and Yamanaka jounin, all were desperately trying hard for chapters to find Nagato's secret place with no good

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)

Also , a Blind Madara can use legged Susanoo with no eyes at all , but MS Madara can't even use a V4 ?


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> What the fuck ?
> Kabuto did not even know how to freaking control Nagato , the idiot did not even know what a Chibaku tensei was called .
> I laughed my ass off when he said : " oh yeah , he has that moon making jutsu "
> We know for a fact that Nagato is a super sunsor , when he wasn't controlled he could sense Naruto and Bee , and Kabuto's secret place , and Itachi's amaterasu . All in one chapter .
> ...


Thank you, finally someone who understands and isn't making up more excuses for Itachi.

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## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Also , a Blind Madara can use legged Susanoo with no eyes at all , but MS Madara can't use a V4 ?





 Blind Madara was revived in the same state as he was in his Prime meaning that he retained his Chakra Potency that he had at the VoTE which was all that was needed to use his Legged Susano'o. Does MS Madara have the same chakra potency as VoTE Madara? No, so why are you bringing this up?


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Blind Madara was revived in the same state as he was in his Prime meaning that he retained his Chakra Potency that he had at the VoTE which was all that was needed to use his Legged Susano'o. Does MS Madara have the same chakra potency as VoTE Madara? No, so why are you bringing this up?



First of all , what the hell have you done to my post ? 
Second of all , Susanoo is a Dojutsu .
Do you know what a Dojutsu means ? it means " eye technique " .
Which means it comes from the eye .
By your logic , No Dojutsu Madara can use legged Susanoo .
But MS Madara who has two freaking Mangekyo can't use V4 Susanoo


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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> and Kabuto's secret place


Good post, overall, just wanted to point out that all Edo Tensei can sense the location of the caster. This is why Itachi was able to locate Kabuto easily, and a statement about this was made as well.


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> Good post, overall, just wanted to point out that all Edo Tensei can sense the location of the caster. This is why Itachi was able to locate Kabuto easily, and a statement about this was made as well.


He was lying when he said that 
And where was it stated that all EDO can sense their caster ??? , i don't remember any EDO doing that except for Nagato .
If that was the case , then why didn't any EDO speak and tell the SA where was Kabuto ?


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## Sapherosth (Jul 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> What the fuck ?
> Kabuto did not even know how to freaking control Nagato , the idiot did not even know what a Chibaku tensei was called .
> I laughed my ass off when he said : " oh yeah , he has that moon making jutsu "
> We know for a fact that Nagato is a super sunsor , when he wasn't controlled he could sense Naruto and Bee , and Kabuto's secret place , and Itachi's amaterasu . All in one chapter .
> ...







For Kabuto being "so stupid", he managed to subdue both Bee and Naruto with relative ease and Naruto even stated that it was even stronger than PAIN.

Anyways, Nagato did not lose because his "sensing" was turned off, he lost because Itachi took away Nagato's vision and Nagato lacked mobility. Kishi pretty much stated it. Stop trying to make excuses when nothing was even implied.

Oh yeah, sensing Amateratsu is nothing special at all..lmfao. It changes the surrounding temperature. Doesn't take a top-tier sensor to feel the weather, does it?

Naruto and Bee wasn't distracting Nagato at all, they were getting fucked in the ass. Oh yeah, you talk as if Itachi would've been fucked by the CT without Naruto/Bee, I beg to differ. Without Itachi being there to tell them what to do, both Bee and Naruto would've been dead already. Stop acting like Naruto and Bee were Itachi's savior because that is not true at all. Kishi even implied as much, when Naruto was thanking Itachi and Bee complimenting him.

There's also nothing to suggest that Itachi can't just send multiple Yasaka beads at the core before it manages to gather layers of rocks. Itachi wasted valuable time explaining and educating Naruto and Bee when he himself could've destroyed the core when it was just the black ball. There's nothing to suggest that the ball is durable at all, so the Yasaka bead could've destroyed it solo.

Just because they sent all 3 does not mean it was the requirement at all, it could've been OVERKILL.

For example, It took Sakura and Chiyo to break Naruto out of finger genjutsu, does that mean it was the requirement to break it? You know...needing 2 top class medic ninja's to inject their chakra in yours to disrupt the flow (They probably didn't need two of them, but it was overkill).

If you want to play it that way, I can also play along...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> For Kabuto being "so stupid", he managed to subdue both Bee and Naruto with relative ease and Naruto even stated that it was even stronger than PAIN.
> 
> Anyways, Nagato did not lose because his "sensing" was turned off, he lost because Itachi took away Nagato's vision and Nagato lacked mobility. Kishi pretty much stated it. Stop trying to make excuses when nothing was even implied.
> 
> ...


This post is so stupid , so full of idiotic wank , so full of rubbish , i don't even know where to start from


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## Sapherosth (Jul 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> This post is so stupid , so full of idiotic wank , so full of rubbish , i don't even know where to start from




You don't even know where to begin because you don't have any counter arguments and you know that I am right. ck


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## ARGUS (Jul 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> The bold is not baseless. The rest is baseless. His V4 Susano'o was only superior to Itachi's and Sasuke's based on Madara's training and increased chakra potency resulting from his Eternal Mangekyo.


EMS Madaras V4 >>> EMS sasukes V4 >= Edo Itachis V4 
Remove the EMS buff and we get the same conclusion 
Training won't improve madaras Susanoo strength. Atleast not to the ridiculous extent you're talking about which is from a level below sasukes to a level far above EMS sasukes 



> Think of it like this, if Adult EMS Sasuke was implied to be able to surpass EMS Madara, then that obviously means that EMS users can improve leagues beyond what they were initially capable of upon awakening the EMS.


No, Sasuke surpassing Madara had nothing to do with him surpassing him in his EMS form. 
It was just a statement about potential, and the circumstances were never as specific as you think 

The statement was sasuke Eventually surpassing Edo Madara. _Not EMS Sasuke _ surpassing Edo Madara 

There's a big difference 



> Madara could only manifest a V3 Susano'o upon awakening the EMS from what was shown,


This is absolutely baseless 
The whole fight was off panelled 
Madara used V3 initially and Hashirama just used a regular mokuton 
Then we see them down on the ground 

Chances are that Madara would have used PS and Hashirama mokuton 
Especially when Madara is pushed to that extent. He would have awakened PS just how Sasuke did 



> Aside from that, EMS Madara, * upon awakening the EMS * was only shown to be able to use a V3 Susano'o to fight Hashirama at the time. This isn't baseless, that's exactly what was shown.


This is absolutely baseless. 
You are basing this claim off a fight that was completely off panelled all off just one panel 

By that logic, hagoromo doesn't have TSB because he wasn't shown to have those when he fought Kaguya


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I was referring to their lack of Choku Tomoe, and no longer going blind. What EMS Sasuke was capable of in comparison was due to him no longer going blind and having stronger eyes, like I said before.



Which doesn't refute that there was a massive disparity between EMS users and MS users. In fact, you actually proved it due to the fact that MS users inability to maintain their Dojutsu is why they're far weaker than they're capable of with the EMS. You're under the assumption that I was arguing for an MS Madara downscaled from EMS Madara which was clearly what I wasn't arguing. I was arguing that MS Madara prior to Izuna's death was inferior to MS Itachi.



> The difference is negligible though at best, it's not even significant.



That's being intellectually dishonest when Sasuke boasts about how Itachi's Power is flowing through his entire body implying that there was quite a boost. It's actually a reasonable boost and why EMS Sasuke easily keeps up with KCM Naruto in the first place while his Dojutsu was still undeveloped.



> But like I said, how do you know this? He has next to no feats from before Konoha's establishment and him gaining EMS, so how the hell do you use that as the basis of your argument. As far as we know, there was no indication that he or anyone partook in any significant training at the time so they did not.



So basically, you're arguing that because he has next to no feats before Konoha's establishment that he must have the feats that he did have at the VoTE. I'm not going to entertain such an argument because I'm going off of what the manga had displayed. Aside from that, him partaking in significant training is a reasonable conclusion one could make given that Madara had engaged in multiple battles, not only did he fight both Onoki and Muu, but Databook highlights him attacking the village multiple times and failed likely due to Hashirama. In order to accomplish his goal, he would have to be powerful enough to fight Hashirama in the first place. That's not even debatable. What you're essentially implying that Madara did not partake in any training at all even though that's a ridiculous assumption, thinking Madara would actually charge in against Hashirama with no training at all, the man he acknowledged the most.



> He actually also highlighted that his lack of mobility was also an important factor.  But the main reason I am arguing this is because most things involving Itachi are plot-induced stupidity and simply bullshit, Kishimoto is an Itachi wanker and makes up excuses to make him look better than he actually is. Nagato is so good at sensing that even while he is critically ill and controlling the Six Paths of Pain in combat, he could detect other sensors trying to sense him and alter his signature so that they could not sense him. Upon being reincarnated, he could seemingly with no effort sense Naruto's approach, sense Itachi building up chakra in his eye, and out of the entire Edo Tensei Army and Shinobi Alliance was the only one who could sense Kabuto's exact location through a sensor-proof barrier. Yet, when he is pit up against Naruto, B, and Itachi. He forgets that Itachi is there and thus Itachi is allowed to leap in to save the day, and is then the one that puts Nagato down through a simple smokescreen. Then there is his fight against Kabuto, when Kabuto can literally easily troll his whole goddamn arsenal but he conveniently has a Jutsu we never heard of that is the perfect counter to Kabuto. If you cannot see the problem here, then you're clearly lost to Itachi's wanking syndrome. But anyway, this is MS Madara vs. Ms Itachi, so I'll focus more on that.



Sure, mobility was a factor, but Kishimoto still highlighted Itachi's feat with Kabuto admitting that losing Shared Vision was shifted the battle in Itachi's favor. No amount of Rinnegan techniques could've prevented Nagato from recovering from that, so essentially, what Itachi did was an extraordinary feat and not attributed to Nagato lacking sensing in the least. That's clearly not what Kishimoto depicted. You can claim that it was plot-induced stupidity, but every one of Itachi's feats have been shown to be extraordinary, so there's honestly no reason to believe that Itachi was capable of what he was doing simply because he's a powerful genius and not because of plot-induced stupidity. If there was an inconsistency in what Itachi did, then yes, plot-induced stupidity would be a reasonable conclusion, but not when Itachi's feats have been depicted as being extraordinary ever since Part 1. Since there's a consistency in Itachi's feats, there's no reason at all why it's plot-induced stupidity at all. Kishimoto gave Itachi proper feats and portrayal throughout the entire series that it's difficult to imagine that it's just plot-induced stupidity in the way that you're implying.

As for the rest, that shows that Nagato's a great sensor, but how does that represent how Nagato uses his sensing in combat? Even Konan is capable of masking her presence as shown when she formed a tower full of her own chakra-infused papers that none of Konoha's sensor ninja could detect, so the feats that he did have in the Pain Arc to suggest that he was "nerfed" in the War Arc isn't a good argument considering Konan isn't a skilled sensor in the first place yet is capable of doing what Nagato can accomplish. Furthermore, you're under the assumption that skilled sensors can hone in on every little detail, but that's clearly not the case. SM Naruto, who could hone in on every person's chakra signatures within the entirety of Konoha still couldn't perceive Preta Path somehow being resuscitated and intercepted Naruto's FRS as a result, so again, assuming that Nagato should've been able to sense Itachi's attack just because he's a skilled sensor is false.

The only thing that's a valid argument is Itachi suddenly having Izanami, but the rest of your argument isn't valid at all. Itachi used everything he had against Nagato that had already been established and emphasized already since Part 1 and Beginning of Part 2 whereas Izanami was something that came about during his battle with Kabuto. That's such a fallacious comparison you made there.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You don't even know where to begin because you don't have any counter arguments and you know that I am right. ck


OMG !
And here i am , hopping that you would have some shame , but no ! 
- Nagato not sensing amaterasu , but instead sensing the weather is 100 % idiotic argument . because amaterasu wasn't cast yet , if he sensed the weather , then naruto and bee should've sensed it as well .
- he sensed the chakra builed up for it you fool .
- sensing the weather , the fuck am i reading !!!!!!!!?????????????????????? 
- Itachi needed naruto and bee to destroy the core of CT .
without them , Itachi would've been fucked like a fuck toy 
This is so stupid , the reason Nagato lost , was because he was distracted by bee and naruto , and not having his sensing , he was blindsided .
- Kabuto did not even know what chibaku tensei was , untill naruto talked about it , and he did not even know that Nagato is a fucking sensor , untill Itachi told him 
- And he was never after Itachi in that fight , he didn't even pay any attention to him .
what the fuck 
- in a 1 on 1 fight , Nagato would rape Itachi so hard in the ass , he would revive the whole uchiha clan in one month 
- My god , that Itachi wank is so up your ass you can't even objectively read a simple piece of a fiction

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jul 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> OMG !
> And here i am , hopping that you would have some shame , but no !
> - Nagato not sensing amaterasu , but instead sensing the weather is 100 % idiotic argument . because amaterasu wasn't cast yet , if he sensed the weather , then naruto and bee should've sensed it as well .
> - he sensed the chakra builed up for it you fool .
> ...





Hahahaha, go sit in a corner buddy.

Did you read what I wrote at all? 

Amateratsu changes the surrounding temperature. It's pretty fucking obvious, mate. Go re-read the Itachi/Sasu fight. 
The reason why Naruto/Bee didn't sense it was because they were far away and Nagato was close so he could feel the pressure changing. Honestly, it's common sense. How did you not even know that? 


The rest of your post is just repetitive nonsense that I've already addressed. Anyone capable of reading and those who've read the manga will understand.


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)




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## Sapherosth (Jul 5, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> EMS Madaras V4 >>> EMS sasukes V4 >= Edo Itachis V4
> Remove the EMS buff and we get the same conclusion
> Training won't improve madaras Susanoo strength. Atleast not to the ridiculous extent you're talking about which is from a level below sasukes to a level far above EMS sasukes
> 
> ...




I am pretty sure training has everything to do with it. MS Sasuke only managed to obtain V4 Susano when he was on the verge of blindness. Without EMS, he would never have the chance to perfect it or have his legged Susano. It also gave him new techniques because of it, such as enton arrows and so on. Obviously we don't know what Madara gained, so we can only speculate, but can scale it to how much Sasuke improved after obtaining EMS.

The gap between MS Sasuke and EMS Sasuke is quite large. No reason to suggest Madara's wouldnt be either, including chakra.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)

@Sapherosth 
When Juubito sensed Sasuke's amaterasu , did he said " i can sense the surrounding temperature " ?
Or did he said " i can sense the chakra build up in your eye " ? 
How the hell can the temperature change when the flames aren't even out yet ? 
Yeah , it's very clear who's the troll who needs to read the manga . See ya .


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## Sapherosth (Jul 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> @Sapherosth
> When Juubito sensed Sasuke's amaterasu , did he said " i can sense the surrounding temperature " ?
> Or did he said " i can sense the chakra build up in your eye " ?
> How the hell can the temperature change when the flames aren't even out yet ?
> Yeah , it's very clear who's the troll who needs to read the manga . See ya .




Juubito's a fucking god, lmao. He's on an entirely different level to all the other people.


What part of "This pressure" don't you understand?


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Juubito's a fucking god, lmao. He's on an entirely different level to all the other people.



If Itachi who's a fucking shit compared to Juubito could feel this " temperature change " , why can't Juubito ?
Are you saying it would take a Rikudou Senjutsu level sensing just to sense a shitty jutsu like amaterasu ? 


Sapherosth said:


> What part of "This pressure" don't you understand?


So your ass understood " the pressure " as in the change of the temperature 
He was referring to the chakra build up .
@Sapherosth retarded logic is this :
- Amaterasu is not even out yet .
- the heat is so on .
What the fuck

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Which doesn't refute that there was a massive disparity between EMS users and MS users. In fact, you actually proved it due to the fact that MS users inability to maintain their Dojutsu is why they're far weaker than they're capable of with the EMS. You're under the assumption that I was arguing for an MS Madara downscaled from EMS Madara which was clearly what I wasn't arguing. I was arguing that MS Madara prior to Izuna's death was inferior to MS Itachi.


 But what I've been trying to say is that your conclusion is incorrect. Yes, there is a big difference in ability between the EMS and MS. However, MS Madara being below Itachi is both baseless and ridiculous. He is literally superior in every single department except for Genjutsu which is entirely useless on him.





> That's being intellectually dishonest when Sasuke boasts about how Itachi's Power is flowing through his entire body implying that there was quite a boost. It's actually a reasonable boost and why EMS Sasuke easily keeps up with KCM Naruto in the first place while his Dojutsu was still undeveloped.


 It's a decent boost, but not so much that you can get some insane conclusion like EMS Madara >>> EMS Sasuke >>> MS Itachi > MS Madara. 





> So basically, you're arguing that because he has next to no feats before Konoha's establishment that he must have the feats that he did have at the VoTE. I'm not going to entertain such an argument because I'm going off of what the manga had displayed. Aside from that, him partaking in significant training is a reasonable conclusion one could make given that Madara had engaged in multiple battles, not only did he fight both Onoki and Muu, but Databook highlights him attacking the village multiple times and failed likely due to Hashirama. In order to accomplish his goal, he would have to be powerful enough to fight Hashirama in the first place. That's not even debatable. What you're essentially implying that Madara did not partake in any training at all even though that's a ridiculous assumption, thinking Madara would actually charge in against Hashirama with no training at all, the man he acknowledged the most.


 Even if what you're saying is true, training has little barring on the development of Susanoo. It's more an innate and subconscious ability that advances during battle and emotional turmoil. Look, Sasuke, who had only recently awakened the MS and was in only a total of approximately three battles during it's possession had already advanced his Susanoo to V4. Itachi, at some unknown point in time had done the same. Madara and Izuna awakened their MS at a young age and kept them well into adulthood, the idea that Madara Uchiha who was the strongest of the Uchiha Clan during their peak who constantly engaged in battles against the Senju Clan at their peak and against their strongest fighters somehow did not have a formidable V4 Susanoo when significantly weaker people who had experienced significantly lesser battles did is complete ludicrous. 





> Sure, mobility was a factor, but Kishimoto still highlighted Itachi's feat with Kabuto admitting that losing Shared Vision was shifted the battle in Itachi's favor. No amount of Rinnegan techniques could've prevented Nagato from recovering from that, so essentially, what Itachi did was an extraordinary feat and not attributed to Nagato lacking sensing in the least. That's clearly not what Kishimoto depicted. You can claim that it was plot-induced stupidity, but every one of Itachi's feats have been shown to be extraordinary, so there's honestly no reason to believe that Itachi was capable of what he was doing simply because he's a powerful genius and not because of plot-induced stupidity. If there was an inconsistency in what Itachi did, then yes, plot-induced stupidity would be a reasonable conclusion, but not when Itachi's feats have been depicted as being extraordinary ever since Part 1. Since there's a consistency in Itachi's feats, there's no reason at all why it's plot-induced stupidity at all. Kishimoto gave Itachi proper feats and portrayal throughout the entire series that it's difficult to imagine that it's just plot-induced stupidity in the way that you're implying.


 Yes, and a large amount of his "consistently extraordinary feats" are results of PIS is what I'm saying because he should have never been able to do some of the shit he's done. 



> As for the rest, that shows that Nagato's a great sensor, but how does that represent how Nagato uses his sensing in combat? Even Konan is capable of masking her presence as shown when she formed a tower full of her own chakra-infused papers that none of Konoha's sensor ninja could detect, so the feats that he did have in the Pain Arc to suggest that he was "nerfed" in the War Arc isn't a good argument considering Konan isn't a skilled sensor in the first place yet is capable of doing what Nagato can accomplish. Furthermore, you're under the assumption that skilled sensors can hone in on every little detail, but that's clearly not the case. SM Naruto, who could hone in on every person's chakra signatures within the entirety of Konoha still couldn't perceive Preta Path somehow being resuscitated and intercepted Naruto's FRS as a result, so again, assuming that Nagato should've been able to sense Itachi's attack just because he's a skilled sensor is false.


 Because he was engaged in combat while using his sensing? Konan's abiliti is an entirely separate thing, so that doesn't count. But, this isn't a little detail. He could sense Itachi's Amaterasu beforehand yet cannot sense him activating Susanoo? A gigantic mass of chakra? Are you really arguing this? The in-universe explanation for his sensing not being active is because Kabuto didn't know he was a sensor, but the real reason is because Kishi had to remove it or else Nagato would've sensed Itachi coming and murked him in a second. 



> The only thing that's a valid argument is Itachi suddenly having Izanami, but the rest of your argument isn't valid at all. Itachi used everything he had against Nagato that had already been established and emphasized already since Part 1 and Beginning of Part 2 whereas Izanami was something that came about during his battle with Kabuto. That's such a fallacious comparison you made there.


  If you say so.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> @Sapherosth
> When Juubito sensed Sasuke's amaterasu , did he said " i can sense the surrounding temperature " ?
> Or did he said " i can sense the chakra build up in your eye " ?
> How the hell can the temperature change when the flames aren't even out yet ?
> Yeah , it's very clear who's the troll who needs to read the manga . See ya .




Juubito's a fucking god, lmao. He's on an entirely different level to all the other people.


What part of "This pressure" don't you understand?


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## Android (Jul 5, 2016)

Did you just double posted ???


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> But what I've been trying to say is that your conclusion is incorrect. *Yes, there is a big difference in ability between the EMS and MS*. However, MS Madara being below Itachi is both baseless and ridiculous. He is literally superior in every single department except for Genjutsu which is entirely useless on him.



There you go, so why are you using feats from VoTE Madara when he was in his Prime to suggest how MS Madara prior to Konoha's establishment would beat MS Itachi? You stated how MS Madara was literally featless and now you're boasting about how he's superior to Itachi in every single way. You're literally contradicting yourself here.




> It's a decent boost, but not so much that you can get some insane conclusion like EMS Madara >>> EMS Sasuke >>> MS Itachi > MS Madara.



Actually, why not? EMS Users are far superior to their MS counterparts, so why isn't this conclusion possible?



> Even if what you're saying is true, training has little barring on the development of Susanoo. It's more an innate and subconscious ability that advances during battle and emotional turmoil. Look, Sasuke, who had only recently awakened the MS and was in only a total of approximately three battles during it's possession had already advanced his Susanoo to V4. Itachi, at some unknown point in time had done the same. Madara and Izuna awakened their MS at a young age and kept them well into adulthood, the idea that Madara Uchiha who was the strongest of the Uchiha Clan during their peak who constantly engaged in battles against the Senju Clan at their peak and against their strongest fighters somehow did not have a formidable V4 Susanoo *when significantly weaker people who had experienced significantly lesser battles did is complete ludicrous.*



Actually, Susano'o is the manifestation of chakra and thus, any sort of significantly training and experience is going to strengthen Susano'o considering that it'll strength the user's chakra potency. The only reasons why it advances during emotional turmoil is due to the Uchiha's natural response to the feeling of "hatred" and when experienced, causes the user's chakra to grow stronger as a result. Emotion Turmoil was shown to be more effective, but both battling and experience yield the same result.

MS Sasuke being able to advance his Susano'o in three battles doesn't necessarily imply that Madara would be capable of doing so and still doesn't prove how Madara had a V4 Susano'o prior to awakening the EMS. Madara and Izuna never awakened MS at a young age, that's something you merely made up and while Madara Uchiha was the strongest in the clan and engaged in more battles, that doesn't indicate that Madara had a V4 Susano'o. We have literally no idea what circumstances Madara encountered whereas we witnessed what circumstances Sasuke was in. Not only was Sasuke driven by plot to grow substantially stronger within a short period amount of time, but he suffered far greater emotional turmoil than Madara had ever experienced. All Madara had to be was strong enough to battle Hashirama which could've very well required a V3 Susano'o from what was shown.

The bold is another baseless assumption and at that point, we cannot boldly claim how Madara was significantly stronger than Sasuke and Itachi, that's entirely baseless and hypocritical, getting on my case how it's baseless to assume MS Itachi > MS Madara yet you're making complete and utter baseless assumptions as well, not to mention that we have no idea how many battles Itachi was involved in.



> Yes, and a large amount of his "consistently extraordinary feats" are results of PIS is what I'm saying because he should have never been able to do some of the shit he's done.



No they're not. He was depicted as extraordinary, get over it. You're basically telling me that his feats are a result of PIS because you refuse to believe Itachi was extraordinary even though that's always shown to be the case ever since he was debuted.




> Because he was engaged in combat while using his sensing? Konan's abiliti is an entirely separate thing, so that doesn't count. But, this isn't a little detail. He could sense Itachi's Amaterasu beforehand yet cannot sense him activating Susanoo? A gigantic mass of chakra? Are you really arguing this? The in-universe explanation for his sensing not being active is because Kabuto didn't know he was a sensor, but the real reason is because Kishi had to remove it or else Nagato would've sensed Itachi coming and murked him in a second.



Yeah, being engaged in combat while using his sensing doesn't mean he's effective at using it in combat. He only used it to sense chakra build-up which is something every skilled sensor should be capable of doing. Karin was actively focused on sensing other people's chakras while in the midst of Sasuke's battle against the Gokage, but her sensing when it comes to battle isn't impressive by any means and Nagato's feat was done as a result of being on top of his Bird Summon while KCM Naruto was preoccupied with Cerberus which didn't require him to react to any attacks in any sort of way.

Why is Konan's ability irrelevant? She has methods to mask her chakra signature like Nagato, but isn't a skilled sensor. That feat in itself clearly doesn't imply that just Nagato's a skilled sensor in battle even if he can mask his chakra signature.

Fair point, but take into consideration how SM Naruto couldn't see a large mass of chakra that Naraka Path used to revive Preta Path. Apparently, he couldn't despite the fact that he can sense everyone's chakra signatures within the entirety of Konoha, but I guess you're literally going to imply that he was nerfed by plots.

There's literally multiple logical reasons for Nagato to be incapable of reacting to Itachi despite being a sensor such as:

1. Nagato sensed it yet was incapable of reacting.
2. Nagato was thrown off by the fact that his Shared Vision was cut off and enabled Itachi to react accordingly.
3. Not every sensor can hone in on every detail in battle as SM Naruto has shown and Itachi's ability to react efficiently enabled him to blindside Nagato before Nagato could sense what was going on.

Honestly, I believe it was a combination of #2 and #3 and it makes more sense than chalking it up to Nagato suddenly being nerfed while Itachi was buffed up.

Your in-universe explanation doesn't even make sense and is automatically an assumption on your part. Kabuto knew Nagato had sensing, he literally saw Nagato sense Itachi's Amaterasu. Just what're you implying exactly here? Along with that, everything Kishimoto depicted in that situation showed that Itachi was capable of doing what he did because he was incredibly strong unlike some situations where Kishimoto makes it clear that the weaker fighter beat the stronger fighter based on certain circumstances as was the case with Sasuke's fight with Itachi, Sasuke's fight with Orochimaru, Sasori's fight w/ Chiyo & Sakura, or how about Kimimaro's fight with Gaara & Lee? No indication that Itachi managed to outplay Nagato because Kishimoto had to restrict Nagato. If that was the case, then that would've clearly been stated.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> EMS Madaras V4 >>> EMS sasukes V4 >= Edo Itachis V4
> Remove the EMS buff and we get the same conclusion
> Training won't improve madaras Susanoo strength. Atleast not to the ridiculous extent you're talking about which is from a level below sasukes to a level far above EMS sasukes



I have no issues with that given how much EMS Sasuke improved from MS Sasuke within a very short period of time.



> No, Sasuke surpassing Madara had nothing to do with him surpassing him in his EMS form.
> It was just a statement about potential, and the circumstances were never as specific as you think
> 
> The statement was sasuke Eventually surpassing Edo Madara. _Not EMS Sasuke _ surpassing Edo Madara
> ...



Orochimaru outright stated that based on his observations, Sasuke displayed potential that can surpass even Madara and Tobirama even cements that after witnessing how Sasuke used his Susano'o before fighting Juubito. It was clearly referencing what he can do with his Eternal Mangekyo and it's literally the pinnacle of the Uchiha's strength. What exactly are you implying here?



> This is absolutely baseless
> The whole fight was off panelled
> Madara used V3 initially and Hashirama just used a regular mokuton
> Then we see them down on the ground
> ...



What I'm stating is absolutely baseless and you're claiming that "Madara would have used PS"? Based on what exactly? I'm actually going by how Kishimoto depicted them at the time which was Madara only being able to use a V3 Susano'o. It's not baseless, that's really the only thing we can go by. If you want to use his VoTE feats, then go right ahead, but I simply won't buy that argument.



> This is absolutely baseless.
> You are basing this claim off a fight that was completely off panelled all off just one panel
> 
> By that logic, hagoromo doesn't have TSB because he wasn't shown to have those when he fought Kaguya



And you're basing the claim that Madara can use PS based off of no panel at all. From where I'm standing (or sitting in this case), my argument is much more credible than your's. Aside from that, Indra and Ashura's fight was clearly only represented based on only one panel yet it still signified how they fought at full power, so I fail to see why a panel in this case wouldn't be indicative of Madara's strength. After all, he is manifesting a Susano'o, literally his highest technique obtained from the MS.

As for Hagoromo, there's multiple explanations for why that could be the case and I fail to see why that matters. At least in that panel, we have every right to assume that Hagoromo/Hamura were capable of far more considering the Juubi wasn't exactly using its full power either. At least with Madara's fight w/ Hashirama, it's a valid representation of Madara's strength based on Kishimoto depicting how they fought every time.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> There you go, so why are you using feats from VoTE Madara when he was in his Prime to suggest how MS Madara prior to Konoha's establishment would beat MS Itachi? You stated how MS Madara was literally featless and now you're boasting about how he's superior to Itachi in every single way. You're literally contradicting yourself here.


 Because EMS Madara is superior to Itachi in every single way, and I'm downscaling from EMS Madara to MS Madara. So even though there is a big difference between them, it is not large enough to put him below Itachi.






> Actually, why not? EMS Users are far superior to their MS counterparts, so why isn't this conclusion possible?


 Because he's fucking Madara.





> Actually, Susano'o is the manifestation of chakra and thus, any sort of significantly training and experience is going to strengthen Susano'o considering that it'll strength the user's chakra potency. The only reasons why it advances during emotional turmoil is due to the Uchiha's natural response to the feeling of "hatred" and when experienced, causes the user's chakra to grow stronger as a result. Emotion Turmoil was shown to be more effective, but both battling and experience yield the same result.


 That is a basic logical conclusion, but that doesn't change the fact that the main way Susanoo has been shown getting stronger is through battle and emotional turmoil. Madara has experienced far more battles and emotional turmoil, and thus, logically, should have already awakened V4 Susanoo if Sasuke and Itachi have.



> MS Sasuke being able to advance his Susano'o in three battles doesn't necessarily imply that Madara would be capable of doing so and still doesn't prove how Madara had a V4 Susano'o prior to awakening the EMS. Madara and Izuna never awakened MS at a young age, that's something you merely made up and while Madara Uchiha was the strongest in the clan and engaged in more battles, that doesn't indicate that Madara had a V4 Susano'o. We have literally no idea what circumstances Madara encountered whereas we witnessed what circumstances Sasuke was in. Not only was Sasuke driven by plot to grow substantially stronger within a short period amount of time, but he suffered far greater emotional turmoil than Madara had ever experienced. All Madara had to be was strong enough to battle Hashirama which could've very well required a V3 Susano'o from what was shown.


 Yes it does, because Madara is significantly stronger than Sasuke in every way imaginable. Itachi himself when describing the past about Madara and Izuna depicted them both as having awakened the MS at a young age, for someone who is such a fan of the Uchiha you should know that.



> The bold is another baseless assumption and at that point, we cannot boldly claim how Madara was significantly stronger than Sasuke and Itachi, that's entirely baseless and hypocritical, getting on my case how it's baseless to assume MS Itachi > MS Madara yet you're making complete and utter baseless assumptions as well, not to mention that we have no idea how many battles Itachi was involved in.


 Are you fucking trolling? Madara was born and raised in an era where children died all the time in constant warfare and the average life expectancy was approximately 30 years old (check the wiki) due to all of the constant battles and bloodshed. As a child, he could already kill several adult Senju before he had even awakened his Sharingan. Later, he and his brother Izuna constantly trained and honed their abilities together and were hailed as the strongest of their clan during it's possible peak. They eventually awakened the MS at a young age and took over the clan due to their unrivaled power. He was stated to have been born with extremely powerful chakra and was hailed as the strongest Uchiha in the clan's history before he had even gotten his EMS. His entire life was literally non-stop training, fighting, and death. Yet, somehow, to you, it is more logical that MS Itachi and Sasuke can have V4 Susanoo and be stronger than him when they were born in a much more peaceful time and their amount of training, battles, and emotional despair doesn't even compare. Do you hear yourself?





> No they're not. He was depicted as extraordinary, get over it. You're basically telling me that his feats are a result of PIS because you refuse to believe Itachi was extraordinary even though that's always shown to be the case ever since he was debuted.


 Not as extraordinary as you make him out to be.






> Yeah, being engaged in combat while using his sensing doesn't mean he's effective at using it in combat. He only used it to sense chakra build-up which is something every skilled sensor should be capable of doing. Karin was actively focused on sensing other people's chakras while in the midst of Sasuke's battle against the Gokage, but her sensing when it comes to battle isn't impressive by any means and Nagato's feat was done as a result of being on top of his Bird Summon while KCM Naruto was preoccupied with Cerberus which didn't require him to react to any attacks in any sort of way.


 Again, did you completely overlook my comment when I said what he could due in terms of sensory prowess while engaged in combat against Naruto with Pain?!



> Why is Konan's ability irrelevant? She has methods to mask her chakra signature like Nagato, but isn't a skilled sensor. That feat in itself clearly doesn't imply that just Nagato's a skilled sensor in battle even if he can mask his chakra signature.


 Because she uses an entirely separate ability to reach the same result, it has nothing to do with sensory prowess in her case. But in Nagato's, it does as shown by Karin.



> Fair point, but take into consideration how SM Naruto couldn't see a large mass of chakra that Naraka Path used to revive Preta Path. Apparently, he couldn't despite the fact that he can sense everyone's chakra signatures within the entirety of Konoha, but I guess you're literally going to imply that he was nerfed by plots.


 Nagato is not Sage Mode Naruto, his sensory perception is superior in all regards except for the pseudo-precognition it provides based on feats.



> There's literally multiple logical reasons for Nagato to be incapable of reacting to Itachi despite being a sensor such as:
> 
> 1. Nagato sensed it yet was incapable of reacting.
> 2. Nagato was thrown off by the fact that his Shared Vision was cut off and enabled Itachi to react accordingly.
> ...


 Which is all bullshit, since he had absolutely no problem reacting to people who are all stronger than Itachi on multiple occasions. He had no problem reacting to SM Jiraiya, SM Naruto, KCM Naruto, and Killer B yet he cannot react to Itachi? 



> Your in-universe explanation doesn't even make sense and is automatically an assumption on your part. Kabuto knew Nagato had sensing, he literally saw Nagato sense Itachi's Amaterasu. Just what're you implying exactly here? Along with that, everything Kishimoto depicted in that situation showed that Itachi was capable of doing what he did because he was incredibly strong unlike some situations where Kishimoto makes it clear that the weaker fighter beat the stronger fighter based on certain circumstances as was the case with Sasuke's fight with Itachi or Sasuke's fight with Orochimaru. No indication that Itachi managed to outplay Nagato because Kishimoto had to restrict Nagato. If that was the case, then that would've clearly been stated.


 Except, when Kabuto confronted Itachi and he clearly didn't know he was a sensor based on his reaction?


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## ARGUS (Jul 6, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I am pretty sure training has everything to do with it. MS Sasuke only managed to obtain V4 Susano when he was on the verge of blindness. Without EMS, he would never have the chance to perfect it or have his legged Susano. It also gave him new techniques because of it, such as enton arrows and so on. Obviously we don't know what Madara gained, so we can only speculate, but can scale it to how much Sasuke improved after obtaining EMS.
> 
> The gap between MS Sasuke and EMS Sasuke is quite large. No reason to suggest Madara's wouldnt be either, including chakra.


[/QUOTE]
Dude, im not debating thhat EMS Sasuke is the same as MS sasuke. 
Im saying that the buffs madara got from MS to EMS are same as what Sasuke got from MS to EMS.  
Training isnt just automatically going to increase your chakra potency.

Uchihax28 is seriously wrong for claiming that MS madara only had V3 susanoo, and that his V3 would be the same as MS sasuke, when that is definietly wrong given that EMS madaras susanoo are far above EMS sasuke. 
removing the buff of EMS would just yeild the same result. 

Claiming that MS Madara doesnt have V4 or that early EMS madara only had V3 doesnt make any sense at all when he fought hashirmaa for a whole day. He would have deffinitely been pushed to PS just how sasuke was.


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## ARGUS (Jul 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I have no issues with that given how much EMS Sasuke improved from MS Sasuke within a very short period of time.


Then why are you arguing that early EMS Madara only has V3?




> Orochimaru outright stated that based on his observations, Sasuke displayed potential that can surpass even Madara and Tobirama even cements that after witnessing how Sasuke used his Susano'o before fighting Juubito. It was clearly referencing what he can do with his Eternal Mangekyo and it's literally the pinnacle of the Uchiha's strength. What exactly are you implying here?


Im implying that tobirama/orochimaru stated that sasuke had the potential to gain MORE POWER. 
Staying in EMS wont grant more power. therefore it is wrong to state that EMS sasuke is going to surpass madara. especially when madara himself was deliberately stated to be above sasuke because he himself gained hashiramas mokuton and a rinnegan 




> *
> What I'm stating is absolutely baseless and you're claiming that "Madara would have used PS"? Based on what exactly? I'm actually going by how Kishimoto depicted them at the time which was Madara only being able to use a V3 Susano'o. It's not baseless, that's really the only thing we can go by. If you want to use his VoTE feats, then go right ahead, but I simply won't buy that argument.*


 
 

bruh, are you kidding me? 
We saw ONE PANEL and then it was stated that they fought for a whole day, till madara fell down 
Sasuke awakened PS within a few hours after using EMS. and he awakened V4 through MS as well.  *Yet youre saying that MADARA WITH EMS CANT USE V4?  *
lol that is the pinnacle of baseless. 

Madara had the talent, he had the requirements (EMS) and he had the chakra to use PS let alone V4.  and he was pushed to his absolute limits. therefore we will go by common sense and state that madara would have easily pulled V4. 
infact madara would have pulled that out in MS form, just how MS Sasuke and MS itachi easily pulled that out. 

using VOTE feats is also wrong becuase hashirama showed NO SURPRISE when he saw PS at VOTE. and the fight they had before VOTE was when madara just awakend EMS. therefore he had PS during that fight too. let alone not have V4. 

and there is also no way in hell that mere V3 susanoo could stand a whole day against hashirama, 





> And you're basing the claim that Madara can use PS based off of no panel at all. From where I'm standing (or sitting in this case), my argument is much more credible than your's.


i have addressed most of this above 
your argument is this. 
''during the fight against early EMS madara, we only saw hashirama use a mokuton branch, so all he had was one mokuton branch in his arsenal'' 
yeah its as retarded as it sounds. 
MS madara has V4 just like MS Sasuke 
EMS madara was pushed to PS just like EMS Sasuke 



> Aside from that, Indra and Ashura's fight was clearly only represented based on only one panel yet it still signified how they fought at full power, so I fail to see why a panel in this case wouldn't be indicative of Madara's strength. After all, he is manifesting a Susano'o, literally his highest technique obtained from the MS.


Except we only saw their avatars  we diidnt see their full power, because indras full power as we know is his arrow, 
we didnt seee madara and hashirmas full power there however, 
because by that logic, edo madara initiated hashirama wiht a V3 susanoo, yet we clearly know thats not his full power 



> As for Hagoromo, there's multiple explanations for why that could be the case and I fail to see why that matters. *At least in that panel, we have every right to assume that Hagoromo/Hamura were capable of far more considering the Juubi wasn't exactly using its full power either.* At least with Madara's fight w/ Hashirama, it's a valid representation of Madara's strength based on Kishimoto depicting how they fought every time.


the bold is seriously contradicting your whole argument. 
the only time we actually saw madara and hashiramas full power battle was their final VOTE clash.  thats it


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## Sapherosth (Jul 6, 2016)

Dude, im not debating thhat EMS Sasuke is the same as MS sasuke.
Im saying that the buffs madara got from MS to EMS are same as what Sasuke got from MS to EMS. 
Training isnt just automatically going to increase your chakra potency.

Uchihax28 is seriously wrong for claiming that MS madara only had V3 susanoo, and that his V3 would be the same as MS sasuke, when that is definietly wrong given that EMS madaras susanoo are far above EMS sasuke.
removing the buff of EMS would just yeild the same result.

Claiming that MS Madara doesnt have V4 or that early EMS madara only had V3 doesnt make any sense at all when he fought hashirmaa for a whole day. He would have deffinitely been pushed to PS just how sasuke was.[/QUOTE]



I am pretty sure training does have something to do with it. I mean, if we look at what Sasuke managed to achieve at the end of his MS, he barely made it to V4 Susano and he's only managed to perfect it by gaining EMS.


EMS Madara's Susano isn't far above EMS Sasuke's Susano at all....because with training/time, Sasuke also achieved PS just like Madara. 

Additionally, we don't know at which point MS Madara took Izuna's eyes, so we can only speculate at which point of MS mastery Madara achieved prior to obtaining EMS.

I still think MS Madara has V4 Susano purely because he's Madara. But V4 Susano alone isn't going to suffice. He's going to be outlasting Itachi to get the win.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 6, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Additionally, we don't know at which point MS Madara took Izuna's eyes, so we can only speculate at which point of MS mastery Madara achieved prior to obtaining EMS.
> 
> I still think MS Madara has V4 Susano purely because he's Madara.* But V4 Susano alone isn't going to suffice. He's going to be outlasting Itachi to get the win.*



Madara's V4 Susanoo is literally gigantic and almost the same size as his Perfect Susanoo, his V4 Susanoo would trash Itachi's V4 Susanoo in a second. His Yata Mirror hype is ambiguous and from a source who didn't know what a Susanoo was and was not intended to be Kaguya's will at the time; whilst his Totsuka Blade has only ever pierced two immobile targets: one who was a giant stationary target who was taken by surprise and another who was immobile, had their sensing off, and was blinded by a smokescreen. I also doubt the Totsuka Blade is strong enough to completely pierce his Susanoo anyway so Itachi really has nothing going for him the Susanoo vs. Susanoo argument.

Excluding that, Madara is literally better in every department. His physical prowess and taijutsu is way better (he also has his Gunbai to deflect attacks), his stamina and chakra reserves are much stronger and larger, he is more intelligent, his ninjutsu completely shits on all of Itachi's aside from Amaterasu (which he counters with the Susanoo ribcage), his own MS can counter Tsukuyomi, and his Sharingan mastery in general is so great that he can distinguish between Kage or Mokuton Bunshin and the original so all of Itachi's Bunshin Kawarimis are rendered useless. He can create Kage Bunshins too and logically, he himself should also know how to use Izanami and be fully aware of how it works. So really, I'm not at all seeing how any of you can think that Itachi can beat him. He is just flat-out vastly superior.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> *Madara's V4 Susanoo is literally gigantic and almost the same size as his Perfect Susanoo,* his V4 Susanoo would trash Itachi's V4 Susanoo in a second.* His Yata Mirror hype is ambiguous and from a source who didn't know what a Susanoo was and was not intended to be Kaguya's will at the time*; whilst his Totsuka Blade has only ever pierced two immobile targets: one who was a giant stationary target who was taken by surprise and another who was immobile, had their sensing off, and was blinded by a smokescreen. I also doubt the Totsuka Blade is strong enough to completely pierce his Susanoo anyway so Itachi really has nothing going for him the Susanoo vs. Susanoo argument.
> 
> Excluding that, Madara is literally better in every department. His physical prowess and taijutsu is way better (he also has his Gunbai to deflect attacks), *his stamina and chakra reserves are much stronger and larger, he is more intelligent*, his ninjutsu completely shits on all of Itachi's aside from Amaterasu (which he counters with the Susanoo ribcage), his own MS can counter Tsukuyomi, and his Sharingan mastery in general is so great that he can distinguish between Kage or Mokuton Bunshin and the original so all of Itachi's Bunshin Kawarimis are rendered useless. He can create Kage Bunshins too and logically, he himself should also know how to use Izanami and be fully aware of how it works. So really, I'm not at all seeing how any of you can think that Itachi can beat him. He is just flat-out vastly superior.




The first bold - Wtf? Scan? I don't remember this.

2nd bold - If it was shown that he knew about Susano, we as readers would've guessed that Black zetsu wasn't who he say he was. It was plot related reason. We already know that he witnessed Madara v Hashirama battle and probably the battle of SOT6P's sons as well. It's clearly bullshit that he wouldn't know about Susano. Given how he's the longest living thing with arguably the most knowledge, I'd hardly call him an unreliable source regarding spiritual weapons. If it wasn't good, why would Orochimaru search for it all his life?

Third bold - His stamina and chakra reserves are much stronger/larger only due to EMS upgrades. MS Sasuke was more or less equal to Itachi in chakra/stamina, but as soon as EMS came the gap was clear. Madara is a careless fighter. He likes a challenge and likes to play around, that much is clear. Intellect wise there's nothing to suggest Madara is superior.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 6, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The first bold - Wtf? Scan? I don't remember this.


  
*Spoiler*: __ 






 Yes, surely Itachi's V4 Susanoo is competing with that thing. 



> 2nd bold - If it was shown that he knew about Susano, we as readers would've guessed that Black zetsu wasn't who he say he was. It was plot related reason. We already know that he witnessed Madara v Hashirama battle and probably the battle of SOT6P's sons as well. It's clearly bullshit that he wouldn't know about Susano. Given how he's the longest living thing with arguably the most knowledge, I'd hardly call him an unreliable source regarding spiritual weapons. If it wasn't good, why would Orochimaru search for it all his life?


 I didn't say that the Sword of Totsuka and Yata Mirror weren't special and powerful weapons but they sure as hell do not make his Susanoo invincible by any means. Also no he did not know what Susanoo was based his reaction and his statement that would indicate he had very limited knowledge. 



> Third bold - His stamina and chakra reserves are much stronger/larger only due to EMS upgrades. MS Sasuke was more or less equal to Itachi in chakra/stamina, but as soon as EMS came the gap was clear. Madara is a careless fighter. He likes a challenge and likes to play around, that much is clear.


 No, it's larger in general due to him being an Indra incarnate who had reached adulthood and had reached most of his potential. He fought Hashirama, Tobirama, and the whole Senju Clan for a full day and just look at the scale of the Jutsu that he used during the War. Attributing that all to EMS is foolish, he was clearly stated by Itachi to have been born with powerful chakra even for an Uchiha and that was abundantly clear. MS Sasuke was a teenager and no he was not, he had superior chakra, Itachi simply had much better control over his. Itachi won't pose much of a challenge to Madara, so he'll go down pretty quickly.



> *Intellect wise there's nothing to suggest Madara is superior. *


 
Honestly, I don't feel like typing up multiple paragraphs so I won't bother to respond to this.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 6, 2016)

I don't understand why that Susanoo is considered a V4. 

It's essentially an unstabilized variant of his PS.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 6, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I don't understand why that Susanoo is considered a V4.
> 
> It's essentially an unstabilized variant of his PS.


Because it strongly resembles Itachi and Sasuke's V4 more than any other variant of Susanoo, and is the only form between hsi V3 and Perfect form.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 6, 2016)

Itachi wins , Totsuka is an immaterial sword , so any kind of defenses are pretty useless not to mention Madara was much weaker , nothing compared to his Prime EMS version and his level was close to 24 years old Tobirama . I sinserly doubt he was as strong as Itachi .


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## Blu-ray (Jul 6, 2016)

Madara wins. He can see through both genjutsu and clone feints, and those are are Itachi's go to means of fighting outside of relying on Susano'o. When it comes to down to the inevitable Susano'o battle, Itachi's just gonna get outlasted.

It's kinda one sided since Madara both hard counters his usual tactics and outclasses him in everything else.



hbcaptain said:


> Itachi wins , Totsuka is an immaterial sword , so any kind of defenses are pretty useless not to mention Madara was much weaker , nothing compared to his Prime EMS version and his level was close to 24 years old Tobirama . I sinserly doubt he was as strong as Itachi .



Simply dodging it seems like more than good enough of a defense, and Totsuka isn't immaterial. It can be held by the material Susano'o and it physically cuts as well. It isn't Kamui that phases through things. If it can't physically pierce something, then sealing it is out of the question, and it hasn't shown the ability to pierce something as durable as Susano'o.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 6, 2016)

MS Madara <<<< War Madara n both speed and reflexes , he isn't dodging Totsuka plus Itachi is notably smarter than him .



> It isn't Kamui that phases through things.


It's like a ghost yet it can slice, any kind of defense is useless .


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