# Kakashi vs Nagato



## Santoryu (Aug 1, 2013)

Knowledge: full
State of mind: IC
Distance: 20 metres
Location: Konoha
This is just Nagato; no pain dolls.

Akatasuki's ex leader vs the Copy Ninja who defeated the mastermind behind Akatasuki.

By the way, you guys should check this video out:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57CFtFCslkc[/YOUTUBE]


O:16-0:18


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## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 1, 2013)

We are talking about Edo Tensei Nagato, then Nagato stomps Kakashi.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 1, 2013)

This starts & ends with a boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ and Kakashi a red smear across the landscape


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## ImSerious (Aug 1, 2013)

Kakashi took out the akatsuki leader, the one who was using nagato as a puppet.


Nagato stands no chance really, Kakashi  is on another level.


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## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 1, 2013)

Kakashi couldn't even take out one of the paths of Pain... imagine him against the real deal.


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## Hamaru (Aug 1, 2013)

DemonFoxSlayer said:


> Kakashi couldn't even take out one of the paths of Pain... imagine him against the real deal.



Is that really your argument? 

The Kakashi who fought against Pain was much, much, weaker; Moreover, Kakashi and Gai stated that they prepared to fight against the different paths of Pain when they were fighting against Obito and the Jins. 

As of right now, Nagato has no counter for kamui, which would be the death of him.


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## bleakwinter (Aug 1, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Is that really your argument?
> 
> The Kakashi who fought against Pain was much, much, weaker; Moreover, Kakashi and Gai stated that they prepared to fight against the different paths of Pain when they were fighting against Obito and the Jins.



Likewise, Pain is much weaker than Nagato, so it goes both ways. Kakashi might have been prepared to fight the paths of Pain's abilities, but Nagato himself is capable of using the techniques on an entirely different scale other than what Kakashi knew about when he made that satement.



> As of right now, Nagato has no counter for kamui, which would be the death of him.



Nagato would easily sense Kakashi building up Chakra to his eye, similar to how he was able to sense Amaterasu before it even occurred (1). He could either respond with the same Shinra Tensei that ripped through the forest, or preemptively activate the Preta path barrier.


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## Hamaru (Aug 1, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Likewise, Pain is much weaker than Nagato, so it goes both ways. Kakashi might have been prepared to fight the paths of Pain's abilities, but Nagato himself is capable of using the techniques on an entirely different scale other than what Kakashi knew about when he made that satement.
> 
> 
> 
> Nagato would easily sense Kakashi building up Chakra to his eye, similar to how he was able to sense Amaterasu before it even occurred (1). He could either respond with the same Shinra Tensei that ripped through the forest, or activate the Preta path barrier.



Blocking Amaterasu isn't close to being the same as blocking Kamui. Nagato has NEVER shown a defense to S/T jutsu. Obito's actions also indicate that raw power isn't enough to stop kamui since he protected GM against it, and felt that he needed to take Kakashi off the battle-field against Juubi.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 1, 2013)

The only argument for Nagato is an immediate ST variant to nullify the chance of a kamui headshot.

Some of the dome would argue Kamui gets off first, I would argue that Kakashi Kamuis himself to the opposing dimension before taking damage from the ST, warps back behind Nagato and warps him.

Problem for Nagato is he has no idea this is possible, especially not for Kakashi, and as such, loses his head before knowing it.

The very fact that Kakashi was confident in engaging Edo Jinchuriki Paths with Rinnegan, further commenting that he had counters in place for the Path's attacks, suggests that a ST from 20m isn't going to be a problem even without the use of Kamui.

However, the fact that bleakwinter is actually suggesting Nagato reacting to Kamui with S/T or Preta Path _after_ detecting chakra buildup kinda makes this debate pointless. That level of ignorance speaks for itself. Nobody in the verse can react to Kamui after it begins initiating short of Minato's FTG- and that was a grapple warp- the one that takes longer because it sucks shit into the tiny wormhole in Obito's eye, requires touching the opponent and is completely harmless. Kakashi's appears on sight, is nearly instant, is larger than Obito's grapple wormhole and begins warping matter (Tearing shit apart) as soon as it's initiated.


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## UchihaSasukeSama (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm assuming this is the crippled, weakened Nagato (Nagato before his death). If so, Nagato can't dodge a Kamui nor can he outlast Kakashi.

Regarding the Kamui headshot, it's not happening. I've seen fucktons of people in this forum ignoring the whole IC thing. When creating a strategy, you should make sure said strategy doesn't contradict the character's fighting style. Kakashi will be using Kamui to cut a small part of Nagato's body (arm or leg) or send Nagato's entire body or objects to the Kamui dimension.


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## Marsala (Aug 1, 2013)

UchihaSasukeSama said:


> I'm assuming this is the crippled, weakened Nagato (Nagato before his death). If so, Nagato can't dodge a Kamui nor can he outlast Kakashi.
> 
> Regarding the Kamui headshot, it's not happening. I've seen fucktons of people in this forum ignoring the whole IC thing. When creating a strategy, you should make sure said strategy doesn't contradict the character's fighting style. Kakashi will be using Kamui to cut a small part of Nagato's body (arm or leg) or send Nagato's entire body or objects to the Kamui dimension.



Kakashi did try to head-shot Gedou Mazou, so he's at least familiar with the concept. And he was probably aiming for Deidara's head, too.


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## bleakwinter (Aug 1, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Blocking Amaterasu isn't close to being the same as blocking Kamui.



Both are eye techniques. Both are Ninjutsu. Both have some sort of latency period between when they can actually hit their target (Ex. Kakashi was worried that Kamui wouldn't make it in time to stop juubi's Bijuudama). They aren't exactly the same, but they parallel well enough to suggest that Nagato can stop Kamui before it initiates. 



> Nagato has NEVER shown a defense to S/T jutsu.



Just claiming that assertion isn't an adequate rebuttal. You have to actually explain why Nagato (Who can sense eye techniques ahead of time), wouldn't be able to use Shinra Tensei to repel Kakashi before he gets a chance to use Kamui, when he had little difficulty anticipating Amaterasu. The point is that Kakashi needs to build Chakra up in his eye (Much like Amaterasu users do) and that is why Nagato will be able to predict it ahead of time. 



> Obito's actions also indicate that raw power isn't enough to stop kamui since he protected GM against it, and felt that he needed to take Kakashi off the battle-field against Juubi.



Juubi's Bijuudama fits the definition of  'raw power', yet Kakashi's Kamui could not react to it in time (1). Kitsuchi to had off-balance Juubi in order to save everyone (Kakashi included) from being killed. Raw power is an adequate counter, especially from an opponent who not only has full knowledge on Kamui, but can sense it ahead of time.


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## Hamaru (Aug 1, 2013)

UchihaSasukeSama said:


> I'm assuming this is the crippled, weakened Nagato (Nagato before his death). If so, Nagato can't dodge a Kamui nor can he outlast Kakashi.
> 
> Regarding the Kamui headshot, it's not happening. I've seen fucktons of people in this forum ignoring the whole IC thing. When creating a strategy, you should make sure said strategy doesn't contradict the character's fighting style. Kakashi will be using Kamui to cut a small part of Nagato's body (arm or leg) or send Nagato's entire body or objects to the Kamui dimension.


Kakashi went for the head shot against GM, likely Deidara, and kamaui was the first jutsu he went to when he first seen Tobi and Zetsu. In this war, he has shown the willingness to use it a lot more, now that he has a hang of it. He isn't going to have a problem resorting to kamui against someone like Nagato.



bleakwinter said:


> Both are eye techniques. Both are Ninjutsu. Both have some sort of latency period between when they can actually hit their target (Ex. Kakashi was worried that Kamui wouldn't make it in time to stop juubi's Bijuudama). *They aren't exactly the same, but they parallel well enough to suggest that Nagato can stop Kamui before it initiates.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The only thing similar between Amatsu and Kamaui is that it gathers chakra into the eye before being used. The type of the attack is completely different. You can't claim that Nagato can block a S/T attack when it has never been shown. 

Kakashi didn't have a problem with Juubi's power, it had nothing to do with him being able to use kamui. It was him being able to land kamui in time, which could have easily been a problem due to all of the fighting he was doing ahead of time. Fact is that Nagato has shown nothing to counter kamui, and Kakashi has a way around everything Nagato has to offer.


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## UchihaSasukeSama (Aug 1, 2013)

Marsala said:


> Kakashi did try to head-shot Gedou Mazou, so he's at least familiar with the concept. And he was probably aiming for Deidara's head, too.



He tried to headshot the Gedo Mazo because it was too big for him to teleport entirely.



Hamaru said:


> Kakashi went for the head shot against GM, likely Deidara, and kamaui was the first jutsu he went to when he first seen Tobi and Zetsu. In this war, he has shown the willingness to use it a lot more, now that he has a hang of it. He isn't going to have a problem resorting to kamui against someone like Nagato.



He tried to Kamui headshot one thing (not human), and it is the Gedo Mazo. As I have said, Kakashi attempted to send Gedo Mazo's head to the Kamui dimension because it was too big for him to teleport. As for Deidara, Kakashi Kamui'd his right arm.

I'm not denying the fact that Kakashi is going to use Kamui to send an object, Nagato's entire body or a small part of it, I'm just saying that Kamui *headshot* isn't happening.


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## trance (Aug 1, 2013)

Nagato takes this...


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## Hamaru (Aug 1, 2013)

Also, claiming Nagato can do something that he has never done is a no limits fallacy.


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## LostSelf (Aug 1, 2013)

Nagato senses the build up of chakra in Kamui and sends him flying to another manga. Calling it manga knowledge or full knowledge, he knows what Kamui is. 

Kakashi gets Shinra Tensei'd and everything is over.


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## Hamaru (Aug 1, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Nagato senses the build up of chakra in Kamui and sends him flying to another manga. Calling it manga knowledge or full knowledge, he knows what Kamui is.
> 
> Kakashi gets Shinra Tensei'd and everything is over.





As we seen when Kakashi used kamui on Naruto's clone, the build up of chakra doesn't take very long...at all. Also, Kakashi can teleport if Shinra Tensei is used.


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## LostSelf (Aug 1, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> As we seen when Kakashi used kamui on Naruto's clone, the build up of chakra doesn't take very long...at all. Also, Kakashi can teleport if Shinra Tensei is used.



Kamui, and any MS jutsu has been stopped before. Obito knew Kakashi was going to use Kamui and stopped him saying it wouldn't work.

There's also the fact that Shinra Tensei's activation is faster than Kamui, because it doesn't need an eye upgrade in orde rto be used, something Kakashi has to do here, and Nagato being a sensor will make him anticipate that move when he senses it.

Unless Kamui now is magically faster than Amaterasu, Kakashi is not using Kamui before Nagato kicks him out of the way.

And not even thousands of "lmaos" will make your argument more credible.


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## Quab (Aug 1, 2013)

Kakashi would probably use Kamui from the get-go.  Meaning he'd beat Nagato.

And plus Kamui is a little different than Amaterasu.  Pein couldn't see the chakra building up from Kamui, when he sucked up the nail.  And sensors can't sense Obito when he uses Kamui to send him or his parts into another dimension.


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## LostSelf (Aug 1, 2013)

Pain is not a sensor, Nagato is. And Obito is diferent. He erases his presence from the dimension. It has nothing to do with chakra building.


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## bleakwinter (Aug 1, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> The only thing similar between Amatsu and Kamaui is that it gathers chakra into the eye before being used.


...And for this reason, Nagato will be able to react with an intensely-powerful Shinra Tensei (A technqiue which also appears to fires near-instantaneously, as it's never been dodged before) during this pre-initiation period (Knocking Kakashi away and subsequently flaunting Kamui's aim)



> The type of the attack is completely different. You can't claim that Nagato can block a S/T attack when it has never been shown.


Obviously the physical characteristics of Amaterasu and Kamui are different, but as you even admitted, the act of gathering Chakra to the eye is identical in both cases. All I'm claiming is that Nagato will capitalize on the build-up period that Kamui requires, similar to how he did against the build-up period of Amaterasu.




> Kakashi didn't have a problem with Juubi's power, it had nothing to do with him being able to use kamui. It was him being able to land kamui in time





> which could have easily been a problem due to all of the fighting he was doing ahead of time.



That certainly can't be the case. Even before the war, Kakashi was able to use and land a Kamui even in a near-death state (1), so exhaustion wouldn't be a plausible reason for Kakashi failing to land Kamui in time. The scan I posted had _everything_ to do with the Bijuudama being too fast for Kakashi to gather Chakra quickly enough to use Kamui.



> Fact is that Nagato has shown nothing to counter kamui



You still haven't explained why Nagato cannot Shinra Tensei Kakashi before it happens. Nagato is initiating the fight with full knowledge as well, and he can also sense the build-up of Chakra. Kamui requires a brief moment to gather Chakra to the eye, while Shinra Tensei requires no time at all. With this fact in mind, Shinra Tensei will land first, scrambling Kakashi's aim and gravely injuring him.   



> , and Kakashi has a way around everything Nagato has to offer.



Barring Kamui, he has almost nothing that could compete with Nagato's arsenal. Nagato had comfortably juggled Killer Bee and aKyubi Chakra Naruto clone quite comfortably until Itachi came into play.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 1, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Is that really your argument?
> 
> The Kakashi who fought against Pain was much, much, weaker; Moreover, Kakashi and Gai stated that they prepared to fight against the different paths of Pain when they were fighting against Obito and the Jins.
> 
> As of right now, Nagato has no counter for kamui, which would be the death of him.


nagato can sense chakara so he would know when kakashi will do it either way nagato crushes kakashi


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## Quab (Aug 1, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Pain is not a sensor, Nagato is. And Obito is diferent. He erases his presence from the dimension. It has nothing to do with chakra building.



Of course Pein isn't a sensor but I surely believe the Rinnengan can see chakra and it's build-up (much like the Sharingan and Byakugan).  And plus Obito *"has to activate/use Kamui"* to erase his presence into the other dimension.  When he uses Kamui to send his parts, sensors don't even know he's using it (as with Ao, Fuu, and Hinata).  Which further indicate that it's undetectable.


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## joshhookway (Aug 1, 2013)

Kamui is faster than that Shinra Tensei Nail. Kamui destroys Nagato.


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## LostSelf (Aug 1, 2013)

Quab said:


> Of course Pein isn't a sensor but I surely believe the Rinnengan can see chakra and it's build-up (much like the Sharingan and Byakugan).  And plus Obito *"has to activate/use Kamui"* to erase his presence into the other dimension.  When he uses Kamui to send his parts, sensors don't even know he's using it (as with Ao, Fuu, and Hinata).  Which further indicate that it's undetectable.



Seeing chakra has not seen to work. Sensing it yes. It has been proven twice already. You don''t see the chakra building up in the eye, you sense it. Byakugan is the only doujutsu that lets you effectively see the chakra network of a person, Rinnegan has not shown such thing.

They did try to sense his chakra, but Obito using Kamui on himself erased his presence. They knew he was using Kamui [1} so they might have sensed him using chakra and erasing his presence after.

Kakashi is focusing chakra on a target, to create a hole and suck it inside, much like Amaterasu focusing on a target to create black flames. Obito just teleports himself, wich is different. But the sensors could tell that Obito was using some kind of ninjutsu to disappear and erase his presence.

Kakashi's Kamui's mechanics are still equal to Amaterasu.


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## Quab (Aug 2, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Seeing chakra has not seen to work. Sensing it yes. It has been proven twice already. You don''t see the chakra building up in the eye, you sense it. Byakugan is the only doujutsu that lets you effectively see the chakra network of a person, Rinnegan has not shown such thing.



Yes, but that still doesn't make sense.  If Kakashi is supposed to amp up chakra (just like Amaterasu to Sasuke and Itachi) to his eye to use it, any Dojutsu should be able to see it.  As chakra is being amped up for usage.    

And when Hinata had the Byakugan (she was clearly looking at his chakra inside the insect nest) [1], she didn't even know Obito was using Kamui [2].  This definitely should explain that Kamui isn't sensible, as Hinata should have been able to feel "any amount of chakra being built up".  But she just saw him vanish and that was it.



> They did try to sense his chakra, but Obito using Kamui on himself erased his presence. They knew he was using Kamui [1} so they might have sensed him using chakra and erasing his presence after.



Thanks for the scan, but it doesn't contribute to anything about sensing.  It was just an analysis by *BOTH* Fuu and Torune.  I'm sure Torune is not a sensor and he explains a little about Kamui.  And though Fuu can sense his presence can vanish, he doesn't know exact point when Obito is using Kamui to phase through his attack or he wouldn't have gotten hit by the nano-bugs [1].  Fuu can sense chakra and when Obito used Kamui to phase through Torune's attack then Fuu would have dodged it. 

Even in a scan with Karin, she didn't even know Obito came in with Kamui to save Sasuke [1].



> Kakashi is focusing chakra on a target, to create a hole and suck it inside, much like Amaterasu focusing on a target to create black flames. Obito just teleports himself, wich is different. But the sensors could tell that Obito was using some kind of ninjutsu to disappear and erase his presence.



Yes, the applications of the techniques are the same but their buildup and effects are quite different.  Obito teleporting himself and phasing is the same as Kakashi sucking up things into the other dimension.  It's the *same jutsu*, with many applications.   

But yes the sensors know Obito can disappear but they don't know where he is coming from until he turns tangible or done teleporting.  Which clearly leans to the side of Kamui not being sensible, before it is being used.



> Kakashi's Kamui's mechanics are still equal to Amaterasu.



Mechanics are the same, but buildup, effects, and after effects are quite different between the two jutsus.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 2, 2013)

You know what's getting on my nerves is how people are treating Kakashi's latest feats as his complete own. He'd be dead if it wasn't chakra handouts. It wasn't until then that Kakashi was having recognizably better results with his Kamui. Unless I see "Kakashi has" x " large source of chakra"  I'm not counting those feats. I'm thinking of the Kakashi that has to take time to activate his MS, then struggles to aim it at someone, and is highly fatigued afterwards. 

  Nagato would arguably notice Kamui charging up. If so he will easily ST him first people. Don't "nuh uh" me and act like Kakashi is too fast, Nagato doesn't even need a hand sign to do this. You have to understand that when he isn't using Pein he's stronger, and has displayed some other abilities. 

  Kakashi is not "on another level". Just because you like him doesn't mean you need to go against what's reasonable. I like Kakashi too, but I don't even consider him top ten, because he simply isn't. Kamui isn't the jutsu of gods people.

By the way, don't use Obito's feats to support Kakashi's Kamui, Obito's Kamui >>>>>> Kakashi's Kamui.


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## Hamaru (Aug 2, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Kamui, and any MS jutsu has been stopped before. Obito knew Kakashi was going to use Kamui and stopped him saying it wouldn't work.
> 
> There's also the fact that Shinra Tensei's activation is faster than Kamui, because it doesn't need an eye upgrade in orde rto be used, something Kakashi has to do here, and Nagato being a sensor will make him anticipate that move when he senses it.
> 
> ...




You poor child. Since when was it ever noted that Amaterasu was faster or as fast as kamui? Did you not notice that Kakashi's kamui has constantly gotten faster throughout time? Nagato may be able to sense a MS jutsu coming; however, he isn't going to know the type. Also, you have no idea ST is faster, because NOTHING in the manga says so. 

There is also the fact that Kakashi knows about the 5 second opening. He can easily create a clone to get the opening and then end it from there. Your basis on why Nagato would win stand on the imaginary ground that you know how long each jutsu takes to use. 


Now then, @ bleakwinter


> ...And for this reason, Nagato will be able to react with an intensely-powerful Shinra Tensei (A technqiue which also appears to fires near-instantaneously, as it's never been dodged before) during this pre-initiation period (Knocking Kakashi away and subsequently flaunting Kamui's aim)


This logic is based on what? How long do you actually think the build up for kamui is? Kakashi was able to use it so fast that Obito didn't notice, and it is Obito's jutsu. The build up time for the jutsu, based on how it is portrayed in the manga, is extremely low. Also, how close do you think Kakashi is going to be to Nagato so that he is knocked back by ST? He was ready to use a clone to create an opening against two paths, why would he not do the same against Nagato himself? 



> Obviously the physical characteristics of Amaterasu and Kamui are different, but as you even admitted, the act of gathering Chakra to the eye is identical in both cases. All I'm claiming is that Nagato will capitalize on the build-up period that Kamui requires, similar to how he did against the build-up period of Amaterasu.


Okay, and if Kakashi fires his kamui, then what? 



> That certainly can't be the case. Even before the war, Kakashi was able to use and land a Kamui even in a near-death state (1), so exhaustion wouldn't be a plausible reason for Kakashi failing to land Kamui in time. The scan I posted had everything to do with the Bijuudama being too fast for Kakashi to gather Chakra quickly enough to use Kamui.



Big difference. In the near death state, the object that he was using kamui on was much smaller, and much closer. In terms of gathering chakra, we know that it has only been seen to take a good amount of time when he is using kamui against huge objects. That isn't the case with Nagato. 



> *You still haven't explained why Nagato cannot Shinra Tensei Kakashi before it happens*. Nagato is initiating the fight with full knowledge as well, and he can also sense the build-up of Chakra. Kamui requires a brief moment to gather Chakra to the eye, while Shinra Tensei requires no time at all. With this fact in mind, Shinra Tensei will land first, scrambling Kakashi's aim and gravely injuring him.


To put simply, Kakashi is to smart. If they both have full knowledge of each other, it would only give Kakashi the advantage as one of the best tacticians in the manga. He would take advantage of the 5 second opening with clones, his raikiri wolf, his raikiri kunai, back to back kamui (like he did to land the first hit on Obito), etc. Kakashi also has the advantage of being able to snipe from long range. There are more ways for Kakashi to play this out that Nagato. If Nagato decides to use one of his large scale attacks, the gathering time would be MUCH to long, as we seen when he fought Naruto. 

*Barring Kamui, he has almost nothing that could compete with Nagato's arsenal. Nagato had comfortably juggled Killer Bee and aKyubi Chakra Naruto clone quite comfortably until Itachi came into play.*
Naruto has Kyuubi, Madara has Perfect Susanoo, Tobi and Kakashi have Kamui. It doesn't matter if it is one or 10 jutsu that allows someone to compete against another person, all that matters is that they have a means to do so.


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 2, 2013)

First Shinra Tensei will end this.


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## Hamaru (Aug 2, 2013)

ShadowReaper said:


> First Shinra Tensei will kill this pathetic loser.



Except for the fact that Kakashi was hit by it before and not critically injured.


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 2, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Except for the fact that Kakashi was hit by it before and not critically injured.



He can increase its power, as seen when he sent 3 toads flying and they were severely injured afterwards.


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## Hamaru (Aug 2, 2013)

ShadowReaper said:


> He can increase its power, as seen when he sent 3 toads flying and they were severely injured afterwards.



Yeah, he can increase it's power and hope that it is the real Kakashi. Which, if it isn't, would leave him wide open for kamui.


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 2, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Yeah, he can increase it's power and hope that it is the real Kakashi. Which, if it isn't, would leave him wide open for kamui.



He won't have that opportunity, as ST's AoE will still be enough to kill him.


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## Hamaru (Aug 2, 2013)

ShadowReaper said:


> He won't have that opportunity, as ST's AoE will still be enough to kill him.



The AoE varies. If Nagato goes for a large scale attack, the time it would take would be long enough for Kakashi go fire his kamui, easily. We seen in the manga that it took time. If he uses a small to mid sized one, once again, he would have to hope that he isn't hitting a clone. If he misses, he is wide open for 5 seconds.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 2, 2013)

I don't get why people think all of the sudden Kakashi can kamui entire people by himself now.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 2, 2013)

> The AoE varies. If Nagato goes for a large scale attack, the time it would take would be long enough for Kakashi go fire his kamui, easily. We seen in the manga that it took time. If he uses a small to mid sized one, once again, he would have to hope that he isn't hitting a clone. If he misses, he is wide open for 5 seconds.



Wow, just wow. He takes prep for CST, he didn't show he needed prep for any size of ST. He doesn't even need a hand sign, and guess what, Kakashi takes time to get MS ready. Again I repeat Kakashi's latest feats aren't on his own, without help his MS still takes time.


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## Hamaru (Aug 2, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> I don't get why people think all of the sudden Kakashi can kamui entire people by himself now.





Augustus Haugerud said:


> Wow, just wow. He takes prep for CST, he didn't show he needed prep for any size of ST. He doesn't even need a hand sign, and guess what, Kakashi takes time to get MS ready. Again I repeat Kakashi's latest feats aren't on his own, without help his MS still takes time.



What the hell are you talking about? What help does Kakashi need for kamui? He was using kamui just fine, and with good speed before he got the 9-tails chakra, so what are you babbling about?


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## Ennoia (Aug 2, 2013)

With full knowledge I cannot see Pain losing this simply because Nagato has the superior ability and I dont think Kakashi can overcome that with just intelligence; It will essentially be exactly what happened when he fought just Deva but much worse. Deva has already experienced Kakashi's clones and experience as well as being able to counter Kamui by seeing the chakra build up. Animal is a huge factor and every other path can hang with Kakashi in CQC. I dont see this ending well for him.

His eye power is useless against such a number of opponents


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## Hamaru (Aug 2, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> With full knowledge I cannot see Pain losing this simply because Nagato has the superior ability and I dont think Kakashi can overcome that with just intelligence; It will essentially be exactly what happened when he fought just Deva but much worse. Deva has already experienced Kakashi's clones and experience as well as being able to counter Kamui by seeing the chakra build up. Animal is a huge factor and every other path can hang with Kakashi in CQC. I dont see this ending well for him.
> 
> His eye power is useless against such a number of opponents



1) Kakashi has an answer to all of Nagato's abilities, Nagato has no answer to kamui other than, try and hit Kakahsi before it is fired. 

2) Kakashi and Gai already made preparations for the different paths of Pain. Nagato is the paths all put into one person, so the counters Kakashi came up with would still work. 

3) In CQC, only Animal and Deva stand a real chance. The rest would get murdered. Kakashi made easy work of Asura, Konohamaru beat one of the paths, hungry ghost has no showings against S/T jutsu, etc.  

4) Gai's comment doesn't mean much for this fight considering Nagato is one person (this isn't the paths of Pain); moreover, the targets Kakashi were going to use kamui against were multiple Bijuu, not human sized enemy.


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## UchihaSasukeSama (Aug 2, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Nagato senses the build up of chakra in Kamui and sends him flying to another manga. Calling it manga knowledge or full knowledge, he knows what Kamui is.
> 
> Kakashi gets Shinra Tensei'd and everything is over.



Kamui is near-instantaneous, whereas Shinra Tensei isn't. Even if Nagato managed to use Shinra Tensei at the beginning of the fight and before Kakashi Kamui's him, Kakashi will Kamui him while being sent flying.

That's assuming Nagato can perform a Shinra Tensei powerful enough to kill Kakashi, before the latter uses Kamui.


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## Ennoia (Aug 2, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> 1) Kakashi has an answer to all of Nagato's abilities, Nagato has no answer to kamui other than, try and hit Kakahsi before it is fired.
> 
> 2) Kakashi and Gai already made preparations for the different paths of Pain. Nagato is the paths all put into one person, so the counters Kakashi came up with would still work.


Individually not collectively. Its easy to name off how Kakashi does X of Deva does Y but not if Deva, Animal, and Asura do ABC. Its simply too much at one time. Majority of Kakashi's arsenal revolves around CQC which is suicide in this situation because Asura pops hands out of nowhere and if he gets caught with Human its over. Nagato has shown the ability use multiple paths at once.



> 3) In CQC, only Animal and Deva stand a real chance. The rest would get murdered. Kakashi made easy work of Asura, Konohamaru beat one of the paths, hungry ghost has no showings against S/T jutsu, etc.


Human caught Jiraiya's punch, was capable of running to Animal and tossing him before FRS hit and blitzed Shizune surrounded by ANBU, Asura intercepted Kakashi I think twice and crossed the distance from Pain to Tsunade before the ANBU could land as well as his strength feats, Preta dodged a blow from Naruto and Nakara dodged FRS. What you call easy work happened only with help and he was not with 3 other paths. Kamui is easily avoidable when you can see chakra.



> 4) Gai's comment doesn't mean much for this fight considering Nagato is one person (this isn't the paths of Pain); moreover, the targets Kakashi were going to use kamui against were multiple Bijuu, not human sized enemy.


Summons, and a lot of them.


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## Veracity (Aug 2, 2013)

UchihaSasukeSama said:


> Kamui is near-instantaneous, whereas Shinra Tensei isn't. Even if Nagato managed to use Shinra Tensei at the beginning of the fight and before Kakashi Kamui's him, Kakashi will Kamui him while being sent flying.
> 
> That's assuming Nagato can perform a Shinra Tensei powerful enough to kill Kakashi, before the latter uses Kamui.



How is he going to Kamui AFTER being gravity pushed strong enough to shatter bones? He's not freaking Bullseye.


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## Hamaru (Aug 2, 2013)

> Individually not collectively. Its easy to name off how Kakashi does X of Deva does Y but not if Deva, Animal, and Asura do ABC. Its simply too much at one time. Majority of Kakashi's arsenal revolves around CQC which is suicide in this situation because Asura pops hands out of nowhere and if he gets caught with Human its over. Nagato has shown the ability use multiple paths at once.


Kakashi has knowledge, he obviously isn't going to make this a CQC fight. 



> Human caught Jiraiya's punch, was capable of running to Animal and tossing him before FRS hit and blitzed Shizune surrounded by ANBU, Asura intercepted Kakashi I think twice and crossed the distance from Pain to Tsunade before the ANBU could land as well as his strength feats, Preta dodged a blow from Naruto and Nakara dodged FRS. What you call easy work happened only with help and he was not with 3 other paths. Kamui is easily avoidable when you can see chakra.


Kakashi had Asura path done for before "help" arrived. The clone tactic he used would have easily won the fight for him if he had the amount of chakra that he has now, in which case he would have used kamui instead of Raikiri. You say kamui is easily avoidable? Show me a scan of someone avoiding it at it's current level. 



> Summons, and a lot of them.


Even with summons, Kakashi just has to get to Nagato's body.


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## Antos (Aug 2, 2013)

There is on thing kamui and ama seems to have in common that they won't hit there target if line of sight is blocked as shown by Obito when he used that shield so Kakashi couldn't remove it's head.


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## Senkou (Aug 2, 2013)

Sad to say but Kakashi would get rocked.

We already seen him die fighting the paths. He'd get murked by Nagato at full strength.

I like Kakashi too but kamui means nothing when you get force pulled and chakra absorbed. Summon a animal. That gets warped instead and then force pull Kakshi in, then chakra absorb and force push away before he can do anything.

Kakashi has no chance.


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## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> You poor child. Since when was it ever noted that Amaterasu was faster or as fast as kamui? Did you not notice that Kakashi's kamui has constantly gotten faster throughout time? Nagato may be able to sense a MS jutsu coming; however, he isn't going to know the type. Also, you have no idea ST is faster, because NOTHING in the manga says so.
> 
> There is also the fact that Kakashi knows about the 5 second opening. He can easily create a clone to get the opening and then end it from there. Your basis on why Nagato would win stand on the imaginary ground that you know how long each jutsu takes to use.



First of all, Amaterasu is instantaneous as well. Kakashi's Kamui was sensed by Obito (or at least, he knew he was going to use it) and stopped Kakashi even before he used it. Nagato sensed a build of chakra in Itachi's eyes and had enough time to warn Naruto about said Jutsu. Of course he has enough time to flatten Kakashi with ST.

Shinra Tensei, unlike Kamui/Amaterasu can be activated faster than those two, without handseals and without focusing chakra on the target. The moment Nagato senses the build of chakra in Kakashi's eyes is the moment Kakashi will find himself talking with his dad again.

Nagato is a sensor, no clones will surprise him.

And he isn't going to know the type? Nagato has full knowledge here and he has seen Kamui before .

At least bother to read the stipulations.


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## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2013)

UchihaSasukeSama said:


> Kamui is near-instantaneous, whereas Shinra Tensei isn't. Even if Nagato managed to use Shinra Tensei at the beginning of the fight and before Kakashi Kamui's him, Kakashi will Kamui him while being sent flying.



Amaterasu is instantaneous as well, and Nagato sensed it long before Itachi used it. He has enough time to use Shinra Tensei on Kakashi.

I seriously doubt Kakashi will aim properly when he's hit badly in the face.



> That's assuming Nagato can perform a Shinra Tensei powerful enough to kill Kakashi, before the latter uses Kamui.



Nagato can one shot three gigantic summons much more durable than Kakashi, And 1/6 Deva one shotted him, Chouza (Who is more durable as well) and the others with Shinra Tensei.

Of course he can kill Kakashi with one.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 2, 2013)

Kamui needs LOS, ST doesn't

BT has all the same properties/mechanics as ST

ST grossly disrupts space, Kamui is a S/T jutsu

ST dispels ninjutsu

FK absorbs ninjutsu

 im gon make some assertions now...

ST would stall, if not fully dispel Kamui before its wave even reaches kakashi.

a BT_vaccuum would make any LoS_kamui attempt end in vain
**
a FK_barrier would stalemate kamui indefinitely(no matter how cheap is sounds :S)


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## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> Kamui needs LOS, ST doesn't
> 
> BT has all the same properties/mechanics as ST
> 
> ...



Going with the safest one to avoid some "prove it or not happening", Kamui being a ninjutsu is helpless against Preta's barrier as well.

Doesn't matter how, it's chakra, and will be meaningless in front of Preta's barrier.

That is if the hole it opens is chakra based, though.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 2, 2013)

^yeah, the kamui ''void'' shouldn't be able to encroach upon the FK/preta ''wall''.

but neither should immediately disappear from whats been shown; kamui would lose its vacuum power and perpetually stall when contacting the barrier...kakashi would be wasting chakra in futility at that point.

the ''boundary'' of the kamui 'void-hole' is indisputably chakra-based.
the chakra is being applied to the opening of said void, hence the focusing lots of chakra & LoS elements of the jutsu

the void itself, is obviously the interior of Kishimotos' studio desk-drawer...


.


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## Icegaze (Aug 2, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Blocking Amaterasu isn't close to being the same as blocking Kamui. Nagato has NEVER shown a defense to S/T jutsu. Obito's actions also indicate that raw power isn't enough to stop kamui since he protected GM against it, and felt that he needed to take Kakashi off the battle-field against Juubi.



why wont preta path work against kamui, which is a ninjutsu
No reason at all, 
amaterasu and kamui, same mechanics 
nagato easily counters kamui and murders kakashi with a disappointed look on his face


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## Empathy (Aug 2, 2013)

The argument basing Nagato losing to Kakashi is that _Kamui_ is a jikukan ninjutsu and thus can't be absorbed or else it's a no limits fallacy since Nagato's never absorbed one before? He's never had the opportunity to absorb that type of ninjutsu. _Kamui_ is a ninjutsu and like any other it's composed of chakra. Unless there's some reason it can't be absorbed, it can be like any other ninjutsu. I don't think it matters if _Kamui_ could be countered either way. There's no good supportive evidence for Kakashi opening with _Kamui_ and Nagato can kill Kakashi much sooner with something far less drastic. 

A _Shinra Tensei_ strong enough to send three boss summons far away from the village would easily kill Kakashi, though much less is required to kill someone with no substantial durability. I also can't believe that Kakashi's battle with Obito is being used as evidence to say he's in another league as Nagato. An Obito without bijuus, _Gedo Mazo_, and _Kamui_ would be demolished by Nagato. Kakashi has never been portrayed anywhere near someone who can threaten RM Naruto, Bee, and Itachi in unison; his rival, Gai, greatest battle was against Kisame for some power-scaling perspective.


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## Ersa (Aug 2, 2013)

As much as I like Kakashi he stands absolutely no chance here.

Nagato is clearly on another level, with full knowledge he'll opt for ST off the bat to get out of LOS. I don't believe Kakashi will consider spamming MS faster then Nagato will spam Rinnegan as the latter has chakra to burn. From there summons can keep Kakashi busy while Nagato nukes him with CST/CT/BT + Soul Rip. The dude manhandled Killer B/Naruto (KCM/weakened) with ease, both who'd I consider on Kakashi's level. Kamui or not, portrayal and feats suggest this ends with the Copy Ninja as red paste.

Kamui is the only thing that stops this being an absolute stomp.

Nagato, low difficulty.


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## Grimm6Jack (Aug 2, 2013)

Nagato was never following Obito because he was stronger than him lel...

And Santoryu, at least give no knowledge to Nagato, that way Kakashi can likely win with Kamui hax. With full knowledge he gets utterly stomped.


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## Ersa (Aug 2, 2013)

Rinnegan Obito > Edo Nagato > MS Obito > Pein Rikudo >=< Wheelchair Nagato.

Technically Obito was superior in my opinion, then both parties received their respective power-ups and the chain holds. Nagato is a beast though


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## TheDestroyer (Aug 2, 2013)

Grimm6Jack said:


> Nagato was never following Obito because he was stronger than him lel...
> 
> And Santoryu, at least give no knowledge to Nagato, that way Kakashi can likely win with Kamui hax. With full knowledge he gets utterly stomped.



Even with no knowledge Nagato would still win due to Kakashi probably not using Kamui immediately. Nagato would immediately use summons first and then he'd camp in the chameleon which the sharingan can't detect. Summons would overwhelm Kakashi as he doesn't have the physical strength or Ninjutsu bar Kamui to take the summons down.


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## Ennoia (Aug 3, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Kakashi has knowledge, he obviously isn't going to make this a CQC fight.


Almost all of his abilities revolve around CQC except Kamui; he has little choice.



> Kakashi had Asura path done for before "help" arrived. The clone tactic he used would have easily won the fight for him if he had the amount of chakra that he has now, in which case he would have used kamui instead of Raikiri. You say kamui is easily avoidable? Show me a scan of someone avoiding it at it's current level.


Dont change the subject, you said Kakashi made easy work of Asura and yet did not put him down and in fact admitted it would require a ton of chakra; that is not easy work. We dont even know if that plan would have worked as it was a back up in the first place. He only fought 2 paths and at that point showed nothing that says he would have won to say he can take on Nagato after basically gaining a chakra boost.

To use Kamui Kakashi has to build chakra in his eye, we all know Nagato can sense and see chakra, he has multiple options from ST to summoning. Bad legs Nagato was even capable of getting behind B after using a large ST, he may even be capable of outrunning the eyesight of Sharingan like Sasuke did to Amaterasu except Kamui wont follow him; he needs to only dodge once.



> Even with summons, Kakashi just has to get to Nagato's body.


Explain to me how he does this when majority of his abilities revolve around getting close. Nagato summons the dog and Kakashi has no means to kill it but Kamui, same with any summon. Your telling me he is going to somehow get past all of these summons and take out Nagato without Taijutsu, Genjutsu, and most of his Ninjutsu? I cant believe that.


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## Icegaze (Aug 3, 2013)

people kamui is ninjutsu therefore it doesnt matter when kakashi uses it or if he uses it. 
nagato preta path absorbs it casually while wondering why the likes of kakashi stood to battle him in the first place
it is ridiculous to think preta path which absorbs ninjutsu somehow cant absorb kamui

*what is kamui?? ninjutsu people. This battle is sooo one sided it is not even fair. *

Make it kakashi+Gai to make it somewhat fair


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## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 3, 2013)

Guys think about this sensibly. Nagato is on a WHOLE different level. I mean... considering Naruto is stronger than Kakashi, and he struggles with the Deva path of Pain, I don't think Kakashi will beat the real deal Nagato. Kamui off the bat doesn't even sound right. Can you really imagine the battle starting and Kakashi using Kamui and that's the end? Nagato lost in 3 seconds? No. Nagato is something else when he's fully healthy. He has the strongest dojutsu, the Rinnegan... I can't imagine Kakashi taking out someone as strong as Nagato. Sorry.


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## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

people kamui isnt even a factor here why the hype
?
would it somehow bypass preta path and forget that it is a ninjutsu???

kakashi is a least a whole tier behind nagato, adding gai might not even secure the masters victory 

this is a comic relief thread. kakashi!! lool outside the overhyped kamui which wont do squat kakashi has absolutely nothing that is a threat to nagato. Kamui is the only reasons kakashi isnt 2 to 3 tiers below nagato.


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## Rios (Aug 4, 2013)

It surprises me how dense people are. Arguments like "he is on a different level" and "Kakashi couldnt win against one path" do not work. 

He was a threat for the fucking Juubi and clearly the second strongest and most useful fighter after Naruto(thats before the edo hokages came of course). 

Talking about levels and past fights is irrelevant


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## MYJC (Aug 4, 2013)

Rios said:


> It surprises me how dense people are. Arguments like "he is on a different level" and "Kakashi couldnt win against one path" do not work.
> 
> He was a threat for the fucking Juubi and clearly the second strongest and most useful fighter after Naruto(thats before the edo hokages came of course).
> 
> Talking about levels and past fights is irrelevant



War Kakashi had the nine-tails chakra and so he could spam the crap out of Kamui - I'm assuming we're talking about normal Kakashi here, so that's different. Normal Kakashi is basically the one that lost badly against deva path.

If we're talking war Kakashi than I guess he can just whore out Kamui until he catches Nagato, but Kakashi with his normal chakra will only get a few tries and isn't able to catch an active opponent that easily (as we saw against Deidara). 


The only plausible argument for Kakashi is if he IMMEDIATELY uses Kamui at the start of the match and Nagato can't avoid it. Considering his many options for dealing with it (Shinra Tensei, absorbing Ninjutsu, having a summon tank it, etc.) I don't really buy that Nagato would go down that easily. And once Nagato calls one of his summons to give him some mobility, the match is basically over.


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## Ennoia (Aug 4, 2013)

Rios said:


> It surprises me how dense people are. Arguments like "he is on a different level" and "Kakashi couldnt win against one path" do not work.
> 
> He was a threat for the fucking Juubi and clearly the second strongest and most useful fighter after Naruto(thats before the edo hokages came of course).
> 
> Talking about levels and past fights is irrelevant



Actually its not because the only thing he really gained is some chakra and some random jutsu like lightning chain if we leave out Kamui. We all know Kakashi is smart, he always has been, but nothing he has really shown gives any indication that he has drastically improved as a ninja except Kamui and chakra levels which I still question because he is on a field with medical ninja that can heal him.

He has zero means of defeating Nagato, I cant wait for you to try to refute this.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 4, 2013)

Why is this thread still going 

Nagato has feat wise and hype wise has been potrayed and shown to be in a completely different pantheon of power to Kakashi, unless we are giving Kakashi the aid of 2-3 kage levels to give him a window/distraction for _Kamui_.... 

he has absolutely nothing that poses anything even resembling a threat to Nagato


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## ueharakk (Aug 4, 2013)

Kakashi isn't even on the same level as nagato.

Full knowledge (or even manga) means any kamui attempt gets sensed and pre-empted by a shinra tensei.  He actually doesn't need sensing to stop it with shinra tensei since he can see the dimension distort around himself.  Kakashi has never shown the ability to use kamui while having clones out, and even if he does have the clones out, nagato has shared vision which would have to be taken out first in order for a surprise attack/feint to work.  The chameleon is another answer to kamui as itachi couldn't see it until it turned visible. Kakashi ended up beating the akatsuki leader while that leader didn't have access to the majority of his combat strength (kamui) and had been fighting for hours controlling full bijuus, gedo mazou, and holding a barrier, all without rest or external restoration.  

Other than kamui, kakashi has nothing he can really do to nagato as all of his ninjutsu are absorbed by preta path (unless he's fast enough or clever enough to bypass it) or flattened by shinra tensei, and going taijutsu against nagato is suicide due to asura realm, human realm, and black chakra receivers.


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## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

the kakashi hype is strong!!! 
he gets flattened so quick


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## joshhookway (Aug 4, 2013)

Doesn't what hype or some shit. Nagato supporters have not address the fact that Kakashi can instantly warp Nagato's head to a different dimension.


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## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Doesn't what hype or some shit. Nagato supporters have not address the fact that Kakashi can instantly warp Nagato's head to a different dimension.



sensing abilities to see it coming +preta path 
or i dont know 7 summons coming at kakashi might make it a little hard to kamui nagato thats just me pointing out the obvious. Or the chibaku tensei drawing kakashi towards his death. 

There are just sooooooooo many ways nagato is a threat to kakashi, yet all i hear kakashi supporters saying is kamui, kamui, kamui 

*nagato can GG kakashi with every single technique he has. Kakashi only sole hope you desperately cling on to is kamui. 1 vs at least 15 shown techniques so far from nagato, the disparity is sooo huge i wonder why you decided to troll yourself on this thread *


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## Joakim3 (Aug 4, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Doesn't what hype or some shit. Nagato supporters have not address the fact that Kakashi can instantly warp Nagato's head to a different dimension.



Just like Kakashi supporters have not addressed Nagato sensing the _Kamui_ chakra buildup and turning Kakashi into red paste by _Shinra Tensei_?


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## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

^thank you 
because they cant address it 
people are so short sighted on this forum it aint funny 

how does one even compare kakashi or itachi to nagato, he slaughters both of them 

kakashi or itachi cannot stand up to 7 summons running their way, evade all summons and then finish off nagato 
who btw can bring himself back to life at least 5000 times

so good luck to either of them or both of them. 4 kakashi's still couldnt beat nagato. Who actually can just for fun get himself killed a 5000 times and bring himself back to life thus exhausting kakashi then he can waltz away. 

ps: all 4 kakashi died of exhaustion in that scenario. We all know nagato chakra level>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kakashi by far 

why do i think nagato can bring himself back to life that often?? because he revived all of konoha after slaughtering the lot and you think 1 ninja in that village can compete with someone who fought and entire village

smh


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## joshhookway (Aug 4, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Just like Kakashi supporters have not addressed Nagato *sensing the Kamui chakra buildup* and turning Kakashi into red paste by _Shinra Tensei_?



Give me the panels that show where Nagato could sense Kamui.

Kakashi's kamui will activate by the time shinra tensei drags Kakashi to Nagato.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 4, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Give me the panels that show where Nagato could sense Kamui.



I said the *CHAKRA BUILDUP* of _Kamui_...... not _Kamui_ itself, there is a difference



joshhookway said:


> Kakashi's kamui will activate by the time shinra tensei drags Kakashi to Nagato.



Nagato will sense the buildup *BEFORE* Kakashi actually uses _Kamui_, just like he sensed the buildup before Itachi used _Amaterasu_, whats so hard to understand? 

By feats _Shinra Tensei _activates just as fast if not quicker then _Kamui_, so we can end that argument


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## Nikushimi (Aug 4, 2013)

Full knowledge?

Kakashi attempts Kamui.

Nagato turns him into a stain with Shinra Tensei.

GG.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2013)

Didn't Nagato already beat Kakashi using only a little bit of the God Realm and Demon Realm powers?


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## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Give me the panels that show where Nagato could sense Kamui.
> 
> Kakashi's kamui will activate by the time shinra tensei drags Kakashi to Nagato.



 troll poster
Nagato is a sensor therefore he sees the chakra build up and simply preta path knowing full well it's incoming ninjutsu 
also good luck using kamui when you have 8 summons headed your way


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 4, 2013)

What the fuck though? Nagato is a couple of notches above kakashi when it comes to power/ability. Top tier sensing+Unavoidable boss summon fodderizing ST ends this quickly. Kakashi could not even teleport the juubi's BB in time and if the alliance was counting on him they would be dead. Please stop wanking kamui speed before we get naruto vs kakashi, madara vs kakashi, obito vs kakashi etc.

You know there is a problem when people gotta depend and savagely argue over one technique getting the job done. It is cheap and let people know that character does not belong in the arena with higher tier characters i am sorry.


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## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

^^thank you 
So much truth in one post

Next I bet they will say because kakashi can compete with hashirama


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Give me the panels that show where Nagato could sense Kamui.
> 
> Kakashi's kamui will activate by the time shinra tensei drags Kakashi to Nagato.



Give me panels showing that Kamui isn't a another chakra attack. Like all offensive MS jutsu, Kamui is entirely composed of chakra. In other words it can be absorbed or repelled.
In Nagato's case he can sense the chakra build up, then choose to absorb or repel the jutsu with a Shinra Tensei powerful enough to do that and crush Kakashi.


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## joshhookway (Aug 4, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> I said the *CHAKRA BUILDUP* of _Kamui_...... not _Kamui_ itself, there is a difference
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kamui activates instantly.

The nail pein threw was extremely fast. Yet, Kakashi responded and kamui'd it instantly.

Kakashi destroys Nagato with Kamui.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 5, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Kamui activates instantly.
> 
> The nail pein threw was extremely fast. Yet, Kakashi responded and kamui'd it instantly.



Josh... you still are failing to prove it activates instantly, give me a scan or characters statement that states it's instant like _Hirashin_ or _Amaterasu_

Again Kakashi was building chakra like any other MS ninjutsu knowing what Tendo was planning. Kakashi reacted to the physical object (the nail) not the actual _Shinra Tensei_ as thats invisible and untraceable



joshhookway said:


> Kakashi destroys Nagato with Kamui.



Until you explain how Kakashi counters Nagato's sensing of MS chakra build up, this "debating" with you is going to get nowhere so we are going to just have to agree to disagree


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## Santoryu (Aug 5, 2013)

I'm on a really slow computer at the moment so excuse the lack of links, however, my points are supported by the manga. 

*Kamui vs The Rinnegan
*
Nagato being able to counter Kamui with the Rinnegan is wishful-thinking; Kamui is a space time ninjutsu and if it could be countered by the Rinnegan, why was it necessary for Obito to engage Kakashi in the other dimension despite* two Rinnegan users *being present on the battlefield. Kamui is a space time-jutsu, so advanced that Kakashi *noted that he hadn't heard of anyone who could stop it after it was countered by Obito's Kamui. *Nagato would not only have no way of telling when Kakashi will use it, but he also has no way of actually stopping or evading the attack. Even a *pre-war arc Kakash*i instantly absorbed Pain's fast moving-nail despite being on the verge of death-Deva was standing r*ight in front of him*-he was looking right at him, but he did not notice a thing despite his sensing abilities. Wait, is somebody going to say that was only because the nail was small? Not a problem, even by if some miracle Shinra-tensei could counter Kamui, Kakashi can activate it even faster, so fast that he is capable of instantly warping a full-sized body (Naruto) who was moving at high-speeds, that Obito, who possesses a very powerful Sharingan and Rinnegan could not even comprehend a body was warped until it was too late. Essentially, even if the Rinnegan is capable of somehow countering Kamui, the speed Kakashi can take out his target makes the latter's ability useless. Nagato resorts to the core? Not only can Kakashi easily warp it, he can also travel through dimensions to evade any incoming attacks with great clarity, albeit this is sort of a last resort. 

*Kakashi vs the Deva and Asura*

A pre-war arc Kakashi was preparing  to take out the Deva path before Chouza and Chouji arrived; his own comrades hindered his own surprise attack. Nagato blatantly stated that Kakashi is far too dangerous to keot alive, and as such he must be killed, otherwise he would pose a threat to Akatasuki in the future-and as evidenced by the manga, Nagato was right. The Kakashi we see currently is much stronger than the Kakashi compared to the one who fought Deva and Asura.

Tactics/Intellect

Kakashi

Physical stats

Kakashi in base is capable of contending with version-two Jinjuriki and even dojutsu overlords like Obito; Nagato doesn't rely on this form of combat, but from what we've seen, it'd be safe to assume Kakashi has the edge here.

Portrayal

Nagato's main advantage is in destructive power and numbers; he's more suited to take on multiple ninja's compared to Kakashi, but in aone vs one battlee? Anything is possible. Nagato was one of the most powerful members in the Akatasuki, there is no doubt, and he handled Naruto and Bee efficiently, but let's observe that fight-Bee rushed in like a idiot without having knowledge about Nagato's abilities-Naruto forgot that Nagato can use his own abilities....

Basically, the two were being idiots and needed saving. A resourceful  character like Kakashi will not make the same mistakes. Kakashi has mastered his version of Kamui and is even a match for Akatasuki's mastermind, the argument that Nagato automatically win soley based on his standing in the Narutoverse is flawed.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> I'm on a really slow computer at the moment so excuse the lack of links, however, my points are supported by the manga.
> 
> *Kamui vs The Rinnegan
> *
> ...



 its ninjutsu therefore, preta path>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kamui
nagato is a sensor 
and you cannot prove kamui can reach a target quicker than amaterasu can 
it isnt instant nor could it ever be. Minato dodged it just fine, *by throwing a kunai* that by definition doesnt make it instant. Deidara noticed the distortion
When he used it on naruto, naruto wasnt trying to escape it. It was a team effort. So lets not make it seem as if suddenly kakashi can also defeat BM naruto because that is what you might be implying

Also if kamui is so GG like you like to claim, then why do you not think kakashi can defeat hashiarama, surely i would think being a sensor and having a jutsu that makes all ninjutsu useless would give you a better chance of defeating the techique. Like nagato is and hashirama is not 

So you urself use standing in the narutoverse, otherwise by your ridiculous  exaggeration of kamui. Kakashi is the strongest ninja, dead or alive

if kamui can defeat nagato then 
kakashi>>madara and hashirama and every other ninja who themselves have shown no better defense against kamui by your own interpretation


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## Pein (Aug 5, 2013)

Kamui GG. 

Kamui's activation speed is too fast for a cripple like Nagato, if he had speed on par with Ei or minato then I would say Nagato wins, but he's too slow so he loses.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

^^more ridiculousness
by some posters estimate kakashi is also stronger than hashirama and madara who havent shown any better reactions towards avoiding kamui 
so  to that


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## Santoryu (Aug 5, 2013)

You've stated nothing that refutes my post.


> its ninjutsu therefore, preta path>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kamui


Did you actually read my post?




> nagato is a sensor


And?



> and you cannot prove kamui can reach a target quicker than amaterasu can
> it isnt instant nor could it ever be





. 





> Minato dodged it just fine, *by throwing a kunai* that by definition doesnt make it instant.


I wasn't aware that Kakashi attempted to use a full-powered Kamui against Minato? But unlike Nagato, Minato is one of the few characters whi can actually evade Kamui.



> Deidara noticed the distortion


Kakashi blatantly stated himself that was unable to control the size and location of the barrier limiting the area of the jutsu back then; you're referencing a Kakashi who took a full chapter to prep the technique, never mind actually use it.  In fact, even back then Deidara noted it was a dojutsu technique that was comparable to Itachi's.



> When he used it on naruto, naruto wasnt trying to escape it. It was a team effort. So lets not make it seem as if suddenly kakashi can also defeat BM naruto because that is what you might be implying


Err....you do realise that Naruto attacked Obito off his own accord, right? Kakashi was wallowing around, and Gai was trying to snap him out of it, so your point is mute. And even then, whether or not Naruto was cooperating is irrelevant, because you know, well, see for yourself:


*Spoiler*: __ 










> Also if kamui is so GG like you like to claim, then why do you not think kakashi can defeat hashiarama, surely i would think being a sensor and having a jutsu that makes all ninjutsu useless would give you a better chance of defeating the techique. Like nagato is and hashirama is not



Ah, the classic A>B>C logic.  First of all, Nagato is a child in terms of power and stature compared to Hashirama and Madara, your comparison is flawed; since when are  Nagato's sensing abilities as potent as Hashirama's? Since when does being able to better Nagato equate to defeating Madara and Hashirama?



> So you urself use standing in the narutoverse, otherwise by your ridiculous  exaggeration of kamui.



No, no, no; it's not me who is exaggerating Kamui, it's the author that has hyped it up to that level.



> Kakashi is the strongest ninja, dead or alive


If that's how you have interpreted my post where I have been referencing the manga for all of my points? Good for you. There is no need for me to further preach the power of Kakashi, or Kamui for that matter, when the author has essentially spoon-fed it to the readers-.



> if kamui can defeat nagato then
> kakashi>>madara and hashirama


Since when? Where was this stated? 

If Itachi takes out Nagato out with Izanami, does that mean he can also defeat Madara and Hashirama?

There is no need to be so irritated by Kakashi's divine-power; with a little boost the dude was a threat to the Juubi itself, hence Obito engaging Kakashi into the other dimension. You say Kakashi can't beat Nagato because he's "not on his level" but I guess your understanding of power-levels wasn't too accurate when Kakashi convincingly defeated Obito? 

Take it easy mate.


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## Magicbullet (Aug 5, 2013)

This is Nagato real body but which version? The crippled one?

Anyhow, I see him overwhelming.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> You've stated nothing that refutes my post.
> 
> Did you actually read my post?
> 
> ...



*read mine and take your time kamui is ninjutsu *which is by no means instant, that panel your provided first off i cant even read it and secondly seeing the pics i know what your talking about and that translation is inaccurate 
kamui isnt instant. Minato avoided obito kamui which hasnt been said to be slower than kakashi. 
Minato was attacked from behind yet still had time to react and  throw a kunai and get out of it. Minato isnt a sensor like nagato

You havent addressed how nagato wont sense the obvious chakra build up. Any ninjutsu requires chakra build up regardless of how fast you think it is. Preta path>>>ninjutsu

Also its clear this battle is sooo one sided seeing that any kakashi tard simply hangs on to kamui which is still a ninjutsu to bail him out, meanwhile nagato has 10 or more jutsu which flatten kakashi

   
hashirama hasnt shown any sensing abilities nor has madara so your the one with the very flawed logic 

again by your flawed logic please explain why you dont think kakashi can kamui EMS madara head right off yet you think he can do that to nagato. So please address how it isnt just hype your using to say hashirama cant be defeated by a technique he has shown no actual defense against yet nagato who isnt all that much weaker who actually has a defense against it gets killed by it.  Your the one using hype here not me. 

Last i checked nagato was the sensor with a ninijutsu *WHICH CANCELS NINJUTSU*

I give up any other poster your welcome. 

till anyone can show or explain with common sense ( please dont say kamui is instant, nothing is. I can say preta path is instant to. disprove that) how kamui doesnt get negated by preta path nagato obviously trolls. 

Also 8 summons running at you makes kamui GG quite impossible seeing that nagato can summon and use preta path at the same time.

ps: if kamui is instant, kakashi is the strongest ninja in the manga, which we all know isnt true 
so there you go, not instant!!!


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## Jizznificent (Aug 5, 2013)

the manga (and even the databook if you want to include it) states that kamui creates a barrier around the target, which is what creates the warp hole. assuming that the barrier is made of chakra - which is likely the case since it is a ninjutsu - then kamui definitely won't be GG'ing nagato. 

regardless, nagato would be too strong for kakashi to handle on his own.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Jizznificent said:


> the manga (and even the databook if you want to include it) states that kamui creates a barrier around the target, which is what creates the warp hole. assuming that the barrier is made of chakra - which is likely the case since it is a ninjutsu - then kamui definitely won't be GG'ing nagato.
> 
> regardless, nagato would be too strong for kakashi to handle on his own.



my thoughts exactly, the charkra creates the barrier which opens up kamui land
nullify barrier no being sent to kamui land. 

Going by DB, feats, portrayal, any and everything kamui cannot be instant because that implies it cannot be avoided. Which it can, see minato. Even hirashin isnt instant however because it requires no physical movement its the closest thing to instant anyone can achieve. 

And we already know hirashin>>kamui in terms of speed, therefore kamui cannot be instant and has been portrayed to be at amaterasu level speed, since both require the same mechanics


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 5, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> why was it necessary for Obito to engage Kakashi in the other dimension despite* two Rinnegan users *being present on the battlefield



Obito didn't use the Rinnegan for reasons unknown. Obito could've absorbed FRS, and Madara could've used ST on Lee... does this means those two jutsu could beat the God and Preta Paths (link)?

That is one of many examples where the Rinnegan wasn't used in a situation where it could've helped. As such, you can't make a airtight case for Kamui's immunity against the God/Preta Paths with that citation.

Using examples can be turned against you: why did Kakashi not attempt to use Kamui on God Realm after learning he could repel jutsu?


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 5, 2013)

^^ which is why Deva ST would work even better than preta fujutsu kyuuin.


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## copydog123 (Aug 6, 2013)

*20 meters?*

Nagato uses shurado realm power to grab and rip apart kakashi in half. Or in three parts depending on how many hands he uses. 


*F A T A L I T Y!!!!!!*


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## Empathy (Aug 6, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> Nagato being able to counter Kamui with the Rinnegan is wishful-thinking; Kamui is a space time ninjutsu and if it could be countered by the Rinnegan, why was it necessary for Obito to engage Kakashi in the other dimension despite* two Rinnegan users *being present on the battlefield.



What exactly is wishful thinking about it? What reason do we have to believe that _Kamui_, a ninjutsu, would interact differently to Nagato than any other ninjutsu? It's wishful thinking to assume Nagato couldn't absorb the chakra from it or repel it just because it's a space time ninjutsu. Madara and Obito haven't displayed the ability to use _Shinra Tensei_ probably because they can't. Madara can absorb ninjutsu but he and Kakashi barely acknowledged each other. 



> Kamui is a space time-jutsu, so advanced that Kakashi *noted that he hadn't heard of anyone who could stop it after it was countered by Obito's Kamui.*



Yes, he hadn't seen it fail before. But _Kamui_ never interacted with Nagato's jutsu in order for it to fail. There's literally no reason why _Kamui_ wouldn't fail. Seriously why would it work? 



> Even a *pre-war arc Kakash*i instantly absorbed Pain's fast moving-nail despite being on the verge of death-Deva was standing r*ight in front of him*-he was looking right at him, but he did not notice a thing despite his sensing abilities.



Deva or any of the Path have never been noted to possess the ability to sense. That's only Nagato. Kakashi created a tiny portal for the nail to fly into. It was a good feint, but that doesn't make _Kamui_ undetectable. A nail sized portal won't kill Nagato.



> Not a problem, even by if some miracle Shinra-tensei could counter Kamui,



Why exactly would it be considered a miracle that a jutsu that's shown to disperse chakra compositions would disperse another ninjutsu composed of chakra? It would be miracle if _Shinra Tensei_ couldn't counter _Kamui_, because there's no reason why it couldn't.



> Kakashi can activate it even faster, so fast that he is capable of instantly warping a full-sized body (Naruto) who was moving at high-speeds, that Obito, who possesses a very powerful Sharingan and Rinnegan could not even comprehend a body was warped until it was too late. Essentially, even if the Rinnegan is capable of somehow countering Kamui, the speed Kakashi can take out his target makes the latter's ability useless.



Kakashi cannot use _Kamui_ instantly; nigh-instantly at it's fastest. Obito's bout with Minato proved such when Minato won the battle of speed by a hair with his literally instantaneous jutsu. Naruto at his top speed becomes an instantaneous yellow flash just like Minato. Because he wasn't moving at such speeds at the time, Naruto was not moving at instantaneous speeds. Obito did notice Kakashi's _Kamui_ and even made a comment on it. It looked like the stake destroyed the bunshin, but it was actually warped a fraction of a second before. 

The stake definitely wasn't moving at instantaneous speeds either. It was more of a lucky feint than Obito being unable to comprehend the speed of Kakashi's _Kamui_. You can also consider the speed of that fast-moving Naruto you were talking about. Naruto moved into the portal. It's like saying Kakashi warped Sasuke's arrows at supersonic speeds when the arrows that were moving at supersonic speeds flew into the portal Kakashi created in front of them.



> Nagato resorts to the core? Not only can Kakashi easily warp it, he can also travel through dimensions to evade any incoming attacks with great clarity, albeit this is sort of a last resort.



Why would Nagato need to resort to _Chibaku Tensei_ just to kill Kakashi. I'm sorry but Kakashi is a man of unremarkable durability. Nagato wouldn't need to use a move that can capture bijuus and level mountain ranges just to kill Kakashi. That would be drastic overkill. Santoryu, what would stop Nagato from killing Kakashi with just a _Shinra Tensei_? Kakashi is not a man of augmented durability. Deva was able to send three boss summons far away from the village. Surely Nagato would require much less force just to kill Kakashi. That's the much more likely outcome long before Kakashi even thinks of _Kamui_ becoming a factor. 



> A pre-war arc Kakashi was preparing  to take out the Deva path before Chouza and Chouji arrived; his own comrades hindered his own surprise attack.



Any proof Kakashi was going to kill Deva? That just seems like bad writing.



> The Kakashi we see currently is much stronger than the Kakashi compared to the one who fought Deva and Asura.



I've never understood the vast discrepancy between pre-war arc Kakashi and current Kakashi. In manga time the difference is literally a day. War arc Kakashi is literally just Kakashi pushing himself further with _Kamui_ against his dead childhood friend Obito in order to save the world. It's something Kakashi should've been capable of the day before the war if it came down to it. Kakashi would not fight as hard if it were any other battle. Besides the new stuff he learned from Obito like entering his dimension (which isn't tier transcending) the other stuff he displayed like _Raiden_ he should already have been capable of. 

Realistically Santoryu, you should know this match only comes down to if Kakashi can kill Nagato with _Kamui_ and nothing else. You've already made it vehemently clear that you're adamant there's no way Nagato could ever stop _Kamui_ (it would be a miracle, remember?). So what exactly would stop Kakashi during the Pain arc from defeating Nagato with his _Kamui_? I'm afraid I don't see the difference.



> Kakashi in base is capable of contending with version-two Jinjuriki and even dojutsu overlords like Obito; Nagato doesn't rely on this form of combat, but from what we've seen, it'd be safe to assume Kakashi has the edge here.



You just said that Nagato doesn't rely on this form of combat so why even include it as a category to give Kakashi a point in? If Kakashi even tried to get close enough to punch Nagato in the face, he'd be sent flying. Nagato was strong enough to restrain Naruto and Bee. Kakashi would get torn apart.



> Kakashi has mastered his version of Kamui and is even a match for Akatasuki's mastermind, the argument that Nagato automatically win soley based on his standing in the Narutoverse is flawed.



Kakashi was a match for Obito due to circumstance. Obito without _Kamui_, bijuus, or _Gedo Mazo_ wouldn't be a match for Nagato. If Kakashi were truly a match for Obito then this wouldn't even be a discussion because Obito's stronger than Nagato. And what exactly is flawed about saying Kakashi was portrayed clearly weaker than Nagato? If it's false I'd like to hear the counterargument.


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## Icegaze (Aug 6, 2013)

^ loved reading that post !!!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 6, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Kamui activates instantly.



Just like Amaterasu. 



> Kakashi destroys Nagato with Kamui.



Possibly if Nagato decides not to sense it, or respond with God Realm, or Preta Realm. That's the only way Kakashi destroys Nagato with Kamui.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 7, 2013)

regardless nagato would destroy him


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