# Prime Rayleigh vs WC Big Mom



## Mad Scientist (Jun 22, 2020)

*Prime Rayleigh vs WC Big Mom*
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*Location*: Broken Marineford
*Distance*: 25 metres
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC
*Restrictions*: None!

​


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## oiety (Jun 22, 2020)

high or extreme in favor of Big Mom, if a much older Rayleigh could temporarily hold off and bleed an admiral (no matter how slight), then in his prime he should be able to make any Yonkou work for it, if not win himself. I'd say

Kaido extreme diffs,
BM extreme diffs,
and Ray beats Shanks extreme diff. 

I think he'd have the attacking power, speed, and haki necessary to keep up, but at some point the additional advantages granted to them (BM and Kaido) by way of their naturally enhanced toughness and superhuman strength, combined with their devil fruits, is too much for him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ruse (Jun 22, 2020)

Could go either way


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 22, 2020)

BM fought equally with the WSC for a day and is a Yonkou in her own right. I don't see Rayleigh being on that level. 
BM extreme diff


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## Ruse (Jun 22, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> BM fought equally with the WSC for a day and is a Yonkou in her own right. I don't see Rayleigh being on that level.
> BM extreme diff



If she needs extreme diff doesn’t that mean Ray is on that level?

Reactions: Like 2


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## oiety (Jun 22, 2020)

wait wait, WC Big Mom?

I'm assuming this is way before she goes on a cake hunt, yeah? If not, then she actually loses as she get's skinnier and skinnier.


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## Fel1x (Jun 22, 2020)

any future or past FM can't win against Yonko

the only exception might be EoS Zoro. and it is only based on becoming stronger than Mihawk

Reactions: Like 1


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## convict (Jun 22, 2020)

I consider him equal to Shanks and Mihawk. If she acts like a dumbass as usual she loses but from a power level perspective I rate her a smidge higher:

Kaido > Meme > Shanks > Teach

If this is her starved form he demolishes her


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## RossellaFiamingo (Jun 23, 2020)

Ray was never Yonko level. At best he is around the level of the Admirals even then he lacks a hax devil fruit which the Admirals have that can close the gap. She beats him Low High Difficulty.


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## Sherlōck (Jun 23, 2020)

Rayleigh smashes her.

I consider Shanks to be currently 2nd strongest Yonko and Prime Ray ~ Shanks >= Meme.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Corax (Jun 23, 2020)

Prime Ray was portrayed as Roger's aibo (equal partner) and Oden's older brother/superior. Oden himself seriously wounded Kaido and almost won (Kaido had to take advantage of hostage situation). Prime Ray is featless,but if portrayal/scaling are allowed he wins.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Dunno (Jun 23, 2020)

Prime Ray takes it easily. Old Ray would win after a hard fight.


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## Geralt-Singh (Jun 23, 2020)

Rayleigh wins very high-extreme diff

Reactions: Like 3


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## Red Admiral (Jun 23, 2020)

people compare Dark King to Shanks while


there is no proof what so ever they have equal CoC
there is more than enough reason to assume Dark King is not a master swordsman ... not having "ONE" sword and using random swords is one of them 

so assuming Big mom ~ Shanks .... he is weaker than them by lacking this amount of power

Big Mom high diff win


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## Draco Bolton (Jun 23, 2020)

Rayleigh mid diff nerfed and clowned BM.

Non nerfed and clowned BM high diff Rayleigh.

Full power Mama is just too strong. 2 indestructible homies, can fly, enormous physical strength, iron skin, swordsman with Napoleon, CoC.  With, of course, CoA ect...Plus if she did cancel (with some kind of hax) Luffy's G4 after they made contact at Tea Party then she's even more dangerous. She was able to fight Kaido with just one Homie for one day without any problem ect...


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## Flame (Jun 23, 2020)

On top of being a powerful swordsman he's also very smart. Going with Ray most times than not.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 23, 2020)

BM wins.
Rayleigh can't beat yonkous.

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Ray shits on her in the Haki department. His only physical stats below her are durability and possibly strenght. 

Ray high - extreme diff 10/10


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## Canute87 (Jun 23, 2020)

Rayleigh loses.


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## Mercurial (Jun 23, 2020)

Pirate King > typical Yonko or typical Admiral

And Ray wasn't just the Pirate King's First Mate. He wasn't like Katakuri to Big Mom or Marco to Whitebeard, or King to Kaido, aka someone strong but massively weaker than the captain. Roger and Rayleigh had a comparabile relationship to Rufy and Zoro, where the captain is stronger but the First Mate is not far below, he is absolutely comparable. Rayleigh was Roger's partner.

And Big Meme is the weakest Top Tier, honestly she had too many too pityful showings. Too many. Too many horrible low end feats. And her best feat is fighting on par with Kaido what was most likely a non serious battle. With her showings and portrayal I cannot see her defeating a single Admiral, or a single Yonko, or someone like Mihawk or Dragon.

Rayleigh in his prime? He can only win this.

Reactions: Like 2 | GODA 1


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## Juub (Jun 23, 2020)

Rayleigh in his prime was one of the closest to the Pirate King.

Don’t get it twisted, Prime Roger would mop the floor with any version of Big Mom. Rayleigh high-diff to extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 5


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## charles101 (Jun 23, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> And Ray wasn't just the Pirate King's First Mate. He wasn't like Katakuri to Big Mom or Marco to Whitebeard, or King to Kaido, aka someone strong but massively weaker than the captain. Roger and Rayleigh had a comparabile relationship to Rufy and Zoro, where the captain is stronger but the First Mate is not far below, he is absolutely comparable. Rayleigh was Roger's partner.



That's pretty much your headcanon. If relationship between crewmembers was so important, Usopp would be as strong as Luffy


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## Beast (Jun 23, 2020)

Ray~ Shanks ~ Mihawk>~ BM

Reactions: Like 2


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## charles101 (Jun 23, 2020)

@MasterBeast

Care to explain...? Since when relationship = power level? Is Mr1 as strong as Crocodile? Is Vergo as strong as Doflamingo? Is Bogart as strong as Garp? Not to mention that there's still huge gap between Luffy and Zoro

Edit: Oh I see, nevermind then


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## Beast (Jun 23, 2020)

charles101 said:


> @MasterBeast
> 
> Care to explain...? Since when relationship = power level? Is Mr1 as strong as Crocodile? Is Vergo as strong as Doflamingo? Is Bogart as strong as Garp? Not to mention that there's still huge gap between Luffy and Zoro


No one said relationships, it’s a matter of potrayal.
There are only 4 characters maybe 5 if you want to be nice, that have any kind potrayal at being close to their captain.
Ray- Roger partner
Zoro - luffy right hand
Oden- WB brother
Ben- Shanks Sun/ Moon
And if you want it be nice to my friend Killer, you could class him as similar to his captain, but Killer is more of a mix between sanji and Zoro rather then just one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 23, 2020)

charles101 said:


> That's pretty much your headcanon. If relationship between crewmembers was so important, Usopp would be as strong as Luffy


Are you trolling? Rufy's partner is Zoro. The first one to be recruited.

Usopp lol


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## Corax (Jun 23, 2020)

Zoro is Luffy's parnter. If Luffy is 100,Zoro is 90/95 or something. Same with Ray and Roger.

Reactions: Like 1


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## charles101 (Jun 23, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> *No one said relationships*, it’s a matter of potrayal.
> There are only 4 characters maybe 5 if you want to be nice, that have any kind potrayal at being close to their captain.
> Ray- Roger partner
> Zoro - luffy right hand
> ...



Do you even read before answering?

That's LITERALLY what he said



Raikiri19 said:


> Roger and Rayleigh had a comparabile relationship to Rufy and Zoro,


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## Red Admiral (Jun 23, 2020)

so many people are butthurt that Dark King is 100% claimless to be a Yonko level fighter

Teach = neg diff all WBP (the crew) with 16 armies

Dark King = in 3 days can't beat much weaker crew 


I mean ... do the math ... if he was Teach level there was NO WAY in hell he wouldn't beat a crew of children and weakling in 3 days

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Jun 23, 2020)

charles101 said:


> Do you even read before answering?
> 
> That's LITERALLY what he said


Ummm... you asked me bruh, I just disagreed with your original post.

@Raikiri19
You meant similar potrayal right 
And don’t laugh at Ussop, that’s Luffys bestfriend.


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## charles101 (Jun 23, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Ummm... you asked me bruh, I just disagreed with your original post.



My "original post" is answer to Raikiri. I asked you because you disagreed with this answer.


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## Beast (Jun 23, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> so many people are butthurt that Dark King is 100% claimless to be a Yonko level fighter
> 
> Teach = neg diff all WBP (the crew) with 16 armies
> 
> ...


arrnt you the same guy, that was matching ray against these so called Yonko in the GV war? 

Fanfic, better come up with some truth. 

More fanfic, Oden> Marco and any other WBP not named WB. 


Lovely of you to forget that Oden was there and they were not fighting in a real war, but yes, Apples and oranges are the same in your world.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Big Mom's only advantage of superior durability isn't even helping her against a superior Haki user who can damage her from below the skin.


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## CaptainCommander (Jun 23, 2020)

Big Mom wins mid diffciulty. Old Ray clashing with an Admiral is proof Yonko>Admiral, not proof Ray=Yonko.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Red Admiral (Jun 23, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> arrnt you the same guy, that was matching ray against these so called Yonko in the GV war?
> 
> Fanfic, better come up with some truth.
> 
> ...



the same Oden that a far from prime Kaido beat?

if Dark King was matched by oden

this thread is over ....

p.s

the old gen > current gen is a toxic hype ... baseless and in need to shut down

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Jun 23, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> the same Oden that a far from prime Kaido beat?
> 
> if Dark King was matched by oden
> 
> this thread is over ....


Far from prime and where was this mentioned? 
Kaidou beat oden? Is this before or after old granny saved him and distracted Oden?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Red Admiral (Jun 23, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Far from prime and where was this mentioned?
> Kaidou beat oden? Is this before or after old granny saved him and distracted Oden?



and Kaido killed her for that ...

Oden endurance = was able to be alive while boiling in oil as hot as magma while have 9 people above him
this is a raw endurance without Haki and DF ... unmatch by any man in the verse as of now

and yet .... the same endurance was done after 1 single attack of Kaido

while




when Akainu attacked a hopeless Whitebeard who could not defend himself at any way ....

Whitebeard was still great to go ...

and for sure whitebeard endurance was weaker than Oden unless you are fooling yourself


so .... Kaido beating Oden like that still is a better feat than Akainu

and Big Mom is equal to that same Yonko ....


Kaido ~ Big Mom > Dark King ~ Oden

it's almost more than proven

p.s

sure


a Kaido from 20 years ago
a Kaido without his hybrid from
a Kaido without his awaking
was all out

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> and Kaido killed her for that ...
> 
> Oden endurance = was able to be alive while boiling in oil as hot as magma while have 9 people above him
> this is a raw endurance without Haki and DF ... unmatch by any man in the verse as of now
> ...




I feel like i missed 90% of what happened in your world


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## Beast (Jun 23, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> and Kaido killed her for that ...
> 
> Oden endurance = was able to be alive while boiling in oil as hot as magma while have 9 people above him
> this is a raw endurance without Haki and DF ... unmatch by any man in the verse as of now
> ...


Wo, Kaidou killed her after she helped him win the fights, so I’m gusssing you went with after Oden was distracted? You could have simply said so.

Oden was able to do that with his dying breath and sacrifice of his body, he would not be able to to do that in battle.
And it wasn’t a 1shot, how many times must I say this?
Oden was already damaged before taking the hit, as well as his mental state... in one, he saving his men from certain death, and in the other, his son that he thought he was going to save... turned into an old ugly granny, 
I wonder what’s so different.



Oooooh, now you want to compare what happened to Oden, with WB and Akainu.... wow, that’s just amazing, I never thought there would be a comparison between the two, I mean yes there’s two top tiers fighting... but are they in any shape or form comparable? No, you’re talking out your ass man, stop it.

I mean, who would be the old granny in the war, that would help distract Akainu from finishing WB, and instead turn around and run towards this distraction? There is no one, most people were comparing fruits, but the difference between WB vs Akainu and Kaidou vs Oden, is unbelievable, and the fact that you tried to compare the two because WB had a heart attack? A freaking heart attack... wow, I mean wow. You just keep surprising me.

And you come on here and tell me, WBs endurance is lower then Oden.... like bro, are you okay?

Standing in hot oil is now a greater feat then taking numerous stabs, gun shots, cannon fire, lasers, frozen and your organs melted by magma and half your face blown off... is... I’m got a long day man, I can’t even take this shit seriously, I might come back and laugh at this for entertainment in the future.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 23, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> and Kaido killed her for that ...


What do you think this proves?

on topic I think mom extreme diffs just can’t see the yonko being so pitiful that the Roger pirates have two people stronger than all of them


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## Red Admiral (Jun 23, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Standing in hot oil is now a greater feat then taking numerous stabs, gun shots, cannon fire, lasers, frozen and your organs melted by magma and half your face blown off... is... I’m got a long day man, I can’t even take this shit seriously, I might come back and laugh at this for entertainment in the future.



I know you can only take bs seriously not logical arguments
I shoot myself with a gun

you go in a +700° oil for 5 sec


I would be wounded ...
you would be dead ...

do you even have any fucking idea who hard it is to tank a +700° heat while having 9 people on your back? 

you need to be smart enough to understand basic logic before you be allowed to have a power level talk with me


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## Red Admiral (Jun 23, 2020)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> What do you think this proves?
> 
> on topic I think mom extreme diffs just can’t see the yonko being so pitiful that the Roger pirates have two people stronger than all of them



this prove that Kaido never wanted her to do that ...

Kaido wanted a fair fight

while some one like Akainu attacked a hopeless Whitebeard who couldn't fight back cause of his heart attack

but while Kaido one shot Oden

Akainu barely effect Whitebeard


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 23, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> this prove that Kaido never wanted her to do that ...
> 
> Kaido wanted a fair fight
> 
> ...


Ok let’s address multiple things but I’ll lead with you are either incredibly disingenuous or have the brain of an infant. Shooting yourself once is not comparable to what happened to whitebeard at MF. If kaido doesn’t know out oden there what happens? Kaido loses. The story necessitates oden being knocked out there so he can be captured.


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Ray shits on her in the Haki department. His only physical stats below her are durability and possibly strenght.
> 
> Ray high - extreme diff 10/10


Based on?

People forget that BM was a Yonkou like WB. He was old? She's older.


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## Big king (Jun 23, 2020)

Rayleigh’s Haki and stats are at a such a high level compared to Linlin that it negates the advantages that Linlin has with her devil fruit/Hax. Ray extreme diff 10/10


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## Red Admiral (Jun 23, 2020)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Ok let’s address multiple things but I’ll lead with you are either incredibly disingenuous or have the brain of an infant. Shooting yourself once is not comparable to what happened to whitebeard at MF. If kaido doesn’t know out oden there what happens? Kaido loses. The story necessitates oden being knocked out there so he can be captured.


I bet I know infants smarter than you ... so let's don't go in the insult round , you won't last long , maybe as much as Dark King dose in front of big Mom or Kaido ... a lose you never forget

but

Kaido was on the heat of the moment
just like when Kata didn't notice what happened to Luffy

for fuck sake read the manga and you see Kaido said he is sorry for what happened ... I'm sure you never heard word sorry much cause civil people use it ... but they often use it when they didn't want something to happen


and what happened to whitebeard at MF was not as equal as Oden godly feat of endurance


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Based on?
> 
> People forget that BM was a Yonkou like WB. He was old? She's older.



Based on his haki feats and portrayal. Who is older than WB? Big Mom is 68, WB died at 72 and Rayleigh is 78 lol


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## Fel1x (Jun 23, 2020)

90% of the guys who voted for Ray are admirals fans

suspicious

Reactions: Like 4


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> 90% of the guys who voted for Ray are admirals fans
> 
> suspicious



100% of the users that voted for Meme are Yonko fans that are afraid she drags the others down with her. Note some don't even believe she can win but they have to do this else they all would look bad.


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## Sherlōck (Jun 23, 2020)

Maybe Rayleigh should let Brook do the fighting while he parties at night clubs.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 23, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> Kaido would beat the shit out fo Oden nonetheless and his feat is greater than admirals even 20 years ago without being all out


This is incoherent. What do the admirals have to do with this? His great feat of getting his ass handed to him while it was 1v1?


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## YonkoDrippy (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Ray shits on her in the Haki department. His only physical stats below her are durability and possibly strenght.
> 
> Ray high - extreme diff 10/10


Cmon wig just admit your boy Rayleigh loses here


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Cmon wig just admit your boy Rayleigh loses here



I doubt that, he exceeds her in everything except durability, especially in haki and you don't seem to have any arguments other than "admit he loses here"


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## YonkoDrippy (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> I doubt that, he exceeds her in everything except durability, especially in haki and you don't seem to have any arguments other than "admit he loses here"


I agree him and Big Mom are on the same level, but Rayleigh would lose to her in a fight. His only stat over her is his Haki and Maybe speed actually. And his Haki isn’t that much stronger than hers. Other than that, she has a hax devil fruit, 2nd best durability in the verse (Kaido #1), and her physical strength from what we’ve seen is > Rayleighs (Unless u think Rayleigh can block a Kong Gun with one arm).


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Based on his haki feats and portrayal. Who is older than WB? Big Mom is 68, WB died at 72 and Rayleigh is 78 lol


Ok I thought she was older. She's still old so WB being old isn't a reason to have her on his level. Which Rayleigh isn't.

His haki feats? Which feats lol using advanced CoA? Being able to touch Kizaru? lol You think BM can't do that and more? Just because she doesn't have those feats doesn't mean she can't do it. And portrayal? She's a freaking Yonkou man, there's no portrayal that makes anyone better than her at anything except Roger himself.


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## Corax (Jun 23, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> I agree him and Big Mom are on the same level, but Rayleigh would lose to her in a fight. His only stat over her is his Haki and Maybe speed actually. Other than that, she has a hax devil fruit, 2nd best durability in the verse (Kaido #1), and her physical strength from what we’ve seen is > Rayleighs (Unless u think Rayleigh can block a Kong Gun with one arm).


How does it really matter?He has force haki wall to stop Zeus and Prometheus attacks if needed. He is at the top of the world considering advanced CoA 2.0 he can wound her easily. He can pierce her heart/brain etc. Also he is faster and has better CoO feats,while she has none. Had she gravity fruit/quake fruit/ darkness fruit/awakened light fruit I would possibly agree,but her fruit isn't enough to stop Ray at all.


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## Fel1x (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> I doubt that, he exceeds her in everything except durability, especially in haki and you don't seem to have any arguments other than "admit he loses here"


in Haki? for example?


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## Soca (Jun 23, 2020)

Keep it civil in here, thanks.


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## YonkoDrippy (Jun 23, 2020)

Corax said:


> How does it really matter?He has force haki wall to stop Zeus and Prometheus attacks if needed. He is at the top of the world considering advanced CoA 2.0 he can wound her easily. He can pierce her heart/brain etc. Also he is faster and has better CoO feats,while she has none. Had she gravity fruit/quake fruit/ darkness fruit/awakened light fruit I would possibly agree,but her fruit isn't enough to stop Ray at all.


Big mom basically stalemated Kaido. The actual strongest creature in the world. I can’t see Ray doing that. Also as a Yonko, her portrayal > Rayleighs. Her feats > Rayleighs. We have no idea how strong a Prime Ray is, and if we use his Old man feats, Big Mom wins Solid Mid Diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 23, 2020)

Corax said:


> How does it really matter?He has force haki wall to stop Zeus and Prometheus attacks if needed. He is at the top of the world considering advanced CoA 2.0 he can wound her easily. He can pierce her heart/brain etc. Also he is faster and has better CoO feats,while she has none. Had she gravity fruit/quake fruit/ darkness fruit/awakened light fruit I would possibly agree,but her fruit isn't enough to stop Ray at all.


If advanced CoA was enough to easily wound BM like piercing her heart/brain, both she and Kaidou would be dead a long time now.


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## Steven (Jun 23, 2020)

Prime Rays feats are crap

BM High-Diffs

Better feats and better portrayal

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> in Haki? for example?



Whatever shade it is Rayleigh is being used as mentor, knowing everything about CoA, CoO, CoC and can use them all. He's shown all advanced forms and hints has been given at FS via flashbacks and him knowing about it, he showed clear advanced haki on the highest level (Roger and WB) and that all considering Rayleigh lost all will to live, his prime should've had all these forms even further reinforced.

What does Big Mom have?



Strobacaxi said:


> Ok I thought she was older. She's still old so WB being old isn't a reason to have her on his level. Which Rayleigh isn't.
> 
> His haki feats? Which feats lol using advanced CoA? Being able to touch Kizaru? lol You think BM can't do that and more? Just because she doesn't have those feats doesn't mean she can't do it. And portrayal? She's a freaking Yonkou man, there's no portrayal that makes anyone better than her at anything except Roger himself.



I don't know why you even brought up the age unless you want to prove her deteriorating in health and psychology which aligns nicely with her negative showings and feats making her weaker.

It's not about what i believe it's about what the debaters can bring up, did she receive the same praise and feats like Rayleigh even in his old age? If the answer is no then we shouldn't even continue on that part since Ray clearly outshines her even in his old age.



YonkoDrippy said:


> I agree him and Big Mom are on the same level, but Rayleigh would lose to her in a fight. His only stat over her is his Haki and Maybe speed actually. And his Haki isn’t that much stronger than hers. Other than that, she has a hax devil fruit, 2nd best durability in the verse (Kaido #1), and her physical strength from what we’ve seen is > Rayleighs (Unless u think Rayleigh can block a Kong Gun with one arm).



I admire your semi-honest answer her but Haki can be split into 3 categories which he all received superior portrayal so far. Alone his superior speed and CoO will make it very hard for her to deliver a blow not to mention his compareable strenght and superior CoA that would still counter her force. Yes i do believe prime Rayleigh can match a kong gun with 1 arm considering Katakuri can, everything else would be denial and downplay. And as it was shown advanced haki can damage individuals from inside which gives Ray a great opportunity to harm her and unlike her she couldn't harm Kaido which would translate in her not being able to do the same. Considering Oden could harm Kaido and she couldn't only throws shade at her overrated strenght and haki.



Strobacaxi said:


> If advanced CoA was enough to easily wound BM like piercing her heart/brain, both she and Kaidou would be dead a long time now.



Or it would mean that neither have it and as we know they didn't face any competent enemies in the last decades as confirmed by their dialogue.



Acno said:


> Prime Rays feats are crap
> 
> BM High-Diffs
> 
> Better feats and better portrayal



Did we see Prime Rayleigh fight or a serious one at that and if yes point me to the chapter i must be reading a different manga.


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## YonkoDrippy (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Whatever shade it is Rayleigh is being used as mentor, knowing everything about CoA, CoO, CoC and can use them all. He's shown all advanced forms and hints has been given at FS via flashbacks and him knowing about it, he showed clear advanced haki on the highest level (Roger and WB) and that all considering Rayleigh lost all will to live, his prime should've had all these forms even further reinforced.
> 
> What does Big Mom have?
> 
> ...



When did Katakuri block a Kong Gun with one arm? From what I remember he was getting pushed back from Kong Gun and was using 2 Arms to block it. Big Mom can casually block a kong gun with one arm without being pushed back or breaking a sweat. No way can Rayleigh do that, at least not with the feats he’s shown.
Just admit it dude Rayleigh loses here until we see more of what his prime can do


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> When did Katakuri block a Kong Gun with one arm? From what I remember he was getting pushed back from Kong Gun and was using 2 Arms to block it. Big Mom can casually block a kong gun with one arm without being pushed back or breaking a sweat. No way can Rayleigh do that, at least not with the feats he’s shown.
> Just admit it dude Rayleigh loses here until we see more of what his prime can do



Old Ray been shown to match Kizaru's strenght who has feats of matching Old WB's strenght and various YC's. You're in denial if you believe Ray even in his prime can't.


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## YonkoDrippy (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Old Ray been shown to match Kizaru's strenght who has feats of matching Old WB's strenght and various YC's. You're in denial if you believe Ray even in his prime can't.


Your using ABC logic and that doesn’t work here. When did kizaru “Match WB’s strength”? YC’s are fodder compared to a Yonko. The only one in denial here is you fam. You have a profile picture of Rayleigh after all, so I guess I can understand why

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> I don't know why you even brought up the age unless you want to prove her deteriorating in health and psychology which aligns nicely with her negative showings and feats making her weaker.


To show you that she is on WB's level. Old WB was stronger than Admirals. BM is on that level. So she is also stronger than Admirals.



TheWiggian said:


> It's not about what i believe it's about what the debaters can bring up, did she receive the same praise and feats like Rayleigh even in his old age? If the answer is no then we shouldn't even continue on that part since Ray clearly outshines her even in his old age.


Praise? She's a Yonkou. You keep forgetting that. That's the most praise a character can be given in the manga.
She doesn't have feats because she hasn't had the chance. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the ability to have better feats than Rayleigh. Unless of course you want to go against everything in the manga and claim BM wouldn't be able to stalemate an admiral for a few seconds.
Roger had literally zero feats until a couple months ago, was he weaker than Rayleigh too?



TheWiggian said:


> Or it would mean that neither have it and as we know they didn't face any competent enemies in the last decades as confirmed by their dialogue.


Yes, of course, 2 yonkous don't have advanced haki... Shutenmaru has it, but BM doesn't LOL Hyoguro has it, but Kaidou doesn't, LOL

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Your using ABC logic and that doesn’t work here. When did kizaru “Match WB’s strength”? YC’s are fodder compared to a Yonko. The only one in denial here is you fam. You have a profile picture of Rayleigh after all, so I guess I can understand why




*Spoiler*: __ 









Kizaru easily matched WB who couldn't even tag him and even holds his bisento down with one leg here. Also it's not ABC logic it's scaling which we do with every fight here that didn't happen in the manga, if you don't the fuck are you posting in the battledome for then? To read bias only?


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Kizaru easily matched WB who couldn't even tag him and even holds his bisento down with one leg here. Also it's not ABC logic it's scaling which we do with every fight here that didn't happen in the manga, if you don't the fuck are you posting in the battledome for then? To read bias only?


Kizaru dodged one attack and countered. He isn't holding down shit, look at his body position he was using the bizento as a "step"


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## YonkoDrippy (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea he matches an Old, Sick, and severely injured WB’s strength. Which would easily be below BM’s physicals. Again, Rayleigh has no feats that put him on Yonko level other than his hype. Big Mom wins until further notice


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> To show you that she is on WB's level. Old WB was stronger than Admirals. BM is on that level. So she is also stronger than Admirals.



Old WB was never clearly shown stronger than any admiral during MF but he been stated to be the ruler of seas and even the other Yonkou admitted him being superior.



Strobacaxi said:


> Praise? She's a Yonkou. You keep forgetting that. That's the most praise a character can be given in the manga.
> She doesn't have feats because she hasn't had the chance. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the ability to have better feats than Rayleigh. Unless of course you want to go against everything in the manga and claim BM wouldn't be able to stalemate an admiral for a few seconds.
> Roger had literally zero feats until a couple months ago, was he weaker than Rayleigh too?



No becoming PK is the highest praise a character can receive in the manga. The MC wants to become the PK not a mere Yonkou as said multiple times by various character's in the manga. Let her break out of the yonkou deadlock before we can imagine her moving onto a higher goal like PK. I believe she could match an admiral for a while so no. This is a battledome thread dude feats are the first source to go by here, Rayleigh has received way superior haki feats and portrayal than her, it's that simple.



Strobacaxi said:


> Yes, of course, 2 yonkous don't have advanced haki... Shutenmaru has it, but BM doesn't LOL Hyoguro has it, but Kaidou doesn't, LOL



When did Shutenmaru display advanced haki? Or Hyoguro who claimed that his Haki is far below Luffy's who was just in the learning phase of advanced CoA? We can assume that Kaido and LinLin have it by scaling but if we put them into direct comparison to Rayleigh's his is clearly superior.



YonkoDrippy said:


> Yea he matches an Old, Sick, and severely injured WB’s strength. Which would easily be below BM’s physicals. Again, Rayleigh has no feats that put him on Yonko level other than his hype. Big Mom wins until further notice



I see the excuses alrdy. Old WB, sick who was still considered the strongest man and Yonkou by the narrative. On wishful thinking yes Big Mom "might" wins this but only if you deeply believe.



Strobacaxi said:


> Kizaru dodged one attack and countered. He isn't holding down shit, look at his body position he was using the bizento as a "step"



Looks more like WB trying to lift the bisento with both arms but Kizaru preventing him from it with his leg and shooting a laser through his torso which stuns the WSM for a moment.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Corax (Jun 23, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Kizaru dodged one attack and countered. He isn't holding down shit, look at his body position he was using the bizento as a "step"


He is. You can even see WB shaking. He was actively trying to unstuck his weapon. Also this feat is supported by Akainu's leg block.


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## Canute87 (Jun 23, 2020)

@TheWiggian 

Here's the thing, I used to believe Rayleigh was all kinds of special,  at the time we saw him he had COC haki which was all kinds of rare and i thought was what separated him from the others.

Fast forward to the current year we are seeing first mates considerably weaker than their captain still have impressive haki showings, and him stalling kizaru for a few minutes doesn't look as impressive because not one time throughout the entire marineford war did we see kizaru actually use his light saber.  

So I don't think Rayleigh being a master swordsman makes kizaru look better when from the looks of it swordsmanship is secondary to Kizaru's seemingly primary fighting style of basically being a kickboxing gunslinger. Had Rayleigh been fighting kizaru in that capacity then I would re-think it.

And what has been even more frustrating is that oda is not showing his strength i guess for some reason of preserving relevance.  

Oden would have been a perfect insight to prime rayleigh's true strength.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> @TheWiggian
> 
> Here's the thing, I used to believe Rayleigh was all kinds of special,  at the time we saw him he had COC haki which was all kinds of rare and i thought was what separated him from the others.
> 
> ...



I disagree. The sword battle delivers the full force of his physical might on the weapon so it's a very good point to base it on. Kizaru was trolling throughout MF without even taking WB serious. There is that panel where his leg strenght is compared to the WSM by preventing the man with the bisento to make more trouble with his weapon which is a clear feat you can take into consideration of physical prowess. The Yonkou fans claim their faves to be far more powerful in physical power when the strongest of them didn't look superior in any single panel over an admiral in a whole war of multiple interactions.

Haki is also a key point especially in the NW but i feel like some monsters in that department don't get enough credit for it. We have Shanks as example who is a Yonkou just based on his haki considering most see him inferior in the physical department but he somehow is still equal or even superior to them according to the same users that state *"Ray's haki is nothing special"* and the *"Yonkou can do the same"*.

Ray doesn't have many physical feats but the comparison to Kizaru and Kizaru's to the WSM is a clear testament that even in his old age he isn't way below them as some here would like to believe. And we talk about Prime Rayleigh who should be a notch above his old self.


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 23, 2020)

Ruse said:


> If she needs extreme diff doesn’t that mean Ray is on that level?


I don't mean they're on different tiers I mean I don't see him fighting equally with the WSC for 2 days until it's shown or suggested that he has the ability to do so.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> I don't mean they're on different tiers I mean I don't see him fighting equally with the WSC for a day until it's shown or suggested that he has the ability to do so.



There is more than enough evidence, suggestions and hints he could achieve something similiar even in his old age you just need to open your eyes and read.


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> There is more than enough evidence, suggestions and hints he could achieve something similiar even in his old age you just need to open your eyes and read.


What is there though?
You most likely have this viewpoint because you see BM as equal to or weaker than admirals meanwhile I believe she could high diff most admirals. Rayleigh's best feat is stalling an admiral for a couple of minutes even though he was huffing and puffing after doing so.

And this is definitely impressive due to his age but it isn't as impressive as fighting perfectly equally with Kaidou, someone who is hyped as the WSC and as a betting favourite in ANY 1on1 fight. Of our knowledge the current strongest character in one piece.

Rayleigh doesn't have any hype greater than being a Yonkou. Being an emperor of the sea is a greater title than being 2nd in command of any crew even if it is the pirate king.

He does have great haki portrayal as he was Luffy's teacher and he's shown advanced CoA but that isn't close to enough to suggest he's stronger than Big Mom.


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## Canute87 (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> I disagree. The sword battle delivers the full force of his physical might on the weapon so it's a very good point to base it on. Kizaru was trolling throughout MF without even taking WB serious. There is that panel where his leg strenght is compared to the WSM by preventing the man with the bisento to make more trouble with his weapon which is a clear feat you can take into consideration of physical prowess. The Yonkou fans claim their faves to be far more powerful in physical power when the strongest of them didn't look superior in any single panel over an admiral in a whole war of multiple interactions.



Kizaru's DF is what propels his attacking power into unprecedented levels.  Most of his most dangerous attacks were augmented by his light powers.  Rayleigh would have had a MUCH, MUCH  harder time dealing with light beam attacks that were destroying mangroves and precise attacks 1000% precision.

WB was sick prior to the fight, got stabbed in the chest, got magma fisted in the chest, got stabbed multiple times, got shot multiple times got cannon balled multiple times and suffered two heart attacks prior to kizaru shooting him ,   WB was in terrible physical condition,  Kizaru still had his deodorant still cooling his armpits.




> Haki is also a key point especially in the NW but i feel like some monsters in that department don't get enough credit for it. We have Shanks as example who is a Yonkou just based on his haki considering most see him inferior in the physical department but he somehow is still equal or even superior to them according to the same users that state *"Ray's haki is nothing special"* and the *"Yonkou can do the same"*.




But there's also the possibility  Shanks could be slightly weaker than Big Mom and Kaidou, but it's not going to matter much because
Kaidou is going down this arc and big mom can be avoided, so it's not as if it's going to be tested.




> Ray doesn't have many physical feats but the comparison to Kizaru and Kizaru's to the WSM is a clear testament that even in his old age he isn't way below them as some here would like to believe. And we talk about Prime Rayleigh who should be a notch above his old self.



Rayleigh holding off Kizaru for a few minutes simply doesn't mean much these days,  Kiji was slightly weaker than Akainu and it took a whole 10 days for Akainu to defeat him. WB and Roger fought for 3 Big Mom and Kaidou fought for 3,  10 days, 5 days, 3 days,  half a day,  These are the times oda seems to be going with to how long a fight is going to last with guys of certain levels.

I can't see Rayleigh holding kizaru for a few minutes as great anymore.  it's just not enough at this point. At least for me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steven (Jun 23, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Whatever shade it is Rayleigh is being used as mentor, knowing everything about CoA, CoO, CoC and can use them all. He's shown all advanced forms and hints has been given at FS via flashbacks and him knowing about it, he showed clear advanced haki on the highest level (Roger and WB) and that all considering Rayleigh lost all will to live, his prime should've had all these forms even further reinforced.
> 
> What does Big Mom have?
> 
> ...


Ray is just the silver medal


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## Seraphoenix (Jun 23, 2020)

Rayleigh implied that if he was younger he would have been able to do more than stalemate Kizaru. I just don't know that that is sufficient to bridge the gap between him and a Yonko.

The only people you might give a slight edge to in a fight against a Yonko are Primebeard, Roger, Xebec and Garp. You get recognised as strongest if you have the potential to beat a Yonko. So as much as I like Ray, he loses.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Kizaru's DF is what propels his attacking power into unprecedented levels.  Most of his most dangerous attacks were augmented by his light powers.  Rayleigh would have had a MUCH, MUCH  harder time dealing with light beam attacks that were destroying mangroves and precise attacks 1000% precision.



You are missing the point entirely. I argue about Kizaru's physical strenght which matched the WSM and Rayleigh. MF also had other Admirals that matched WB pretty equally in different conditions so it's not an outlier either.



Canute87 said:


> WB was sick prior to the fight, got stabbed in the chest, got magma fisted in the chest, got stabbed multiple times, got shot multiple times got cannon balled multiple times and suffered two heart attacks prior to kizaru shooting him ,   WB was in terrible physical condition,  Kizaru still had his deodorant still cooling his armpits.



He still had immense feats like stopping a gigantic ship with 1 arm. So at the very least still compareable. Also the point above ^^



Canute87 said:


> Rayleigh holding off Kizaru for a few minutes simply doesn't mean much these days,  Kiji was slightly weaker than Akainu and it took a whole 10 days for Akainu to defeat him. WB and Roger fought for 3 Big Mom and Kaidou fought for 3,  10 days, 5 days, 3 days,  half a day,  These are the times oda seems to be going with to how long a fight is going to last with guys of certain levels.
> 
> I can't see Rayleigh holding kizaru for a few minutes as great anymore.  it's just not enough at this point. At least for me.



Well idc tbh. As rare as top tier feats are it's still one of the best feats up to date. Holding off an admiral is something very few active pirates can do. WB and Roger was a looting match. Kaido and Mom fought 1 night lol where you n1ggas keep getting 3 days from? And he had to feed her else she wouldn't be able to put up a fight in a hungry state.

Be thankful that One Piece isn't affected that much by power inflation like that naruto garbage. You likely won't see way bigger feats that changing an islands climate or an island lifted. Idk what you expect that Ray is supposed to nuke the moon?



Ezekjuninor said:


> What is there though?
> You most likely have this viewpoint because you see BM as equal to or weaker than admirals meanwhile I believe she could high diff most admirals. Rayleigh's best feat is stalling an admiral for a couple of minutes even though he was huffing and puffing after doing so.
> 
> And this is definitely impressive due to his age but it isn't as impressive as fighting perfectly equally with Kaidou, someone who is hyped as the WSC and as a betting favourite in ANY 1on1 fight. Of our knowledge the current strongest character in one piece.



Why don't you post the next panel where Rayleigh isn't panting anymore?



Kaido has hype and that's it, if i would've bet all my money on Kaido before he started his fight with LinLin i would've been blank now since he didn't win, so much for this rumour.



Ezekjuninor said:


> Rayleigh doesn't have any hype greater than being a Yonkou. Being an emperor of the sea is a greater title than being 2nd in command of any crew even if it is the pirate king.
> 
> He does have great haki portrayal as he was Luffy's teacher and he's shown advanced CoA but that isn't close to enough to suggest he's stronger than Big Mom.



The first is just subjective, fact is we don't know. We know PK >>> Yonkou and PK's right hand or VC at that could very well be equal, better or worse than Yonkou.

His haki hype, feats and portrayal are all above Big Mom's, all 3 shades with perfect mastery and knowledge and feats superior to most characters in the verse currently.



Acno said:


> Ray is just the silver medal



So are the Yonkou who can't become PK they're left wandering this earth as the scum that can't walk in Roger's footsteps no matter how hard they try.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Jun 23, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yes, of course, 2 yonkous don't have advanced haki... Shutenmaru has it, but BM doesn't LOL Hyoguro has it, but Kaidou doesn't, LOL



Katakuri has FS but that doesn’t mean every Yonko and Admiral has it. Haki forms aren't something you can powerscale


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 23, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Katakuri has FS but that doesn’t mean every Yonko and Admiral has it. Haki forms aren't something you can powerscale


Well every Logia admiral has it for sure, they showed it on MF.
I dont see why we wouldn't powerscale haki. It's a power that everyone has and everyone worth mentioning is strong at it. It's an essential tool for every mid tier+. Why would the Yonkous not be the greatest in every way at them?

BM isn't particulary fast, if she doesn't have FS, then she would only be able to tie with Katakuri, as she can't touch him. And that's an absurd idea to contemplate


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## CaptainCommander (Jun 23, 2020)

@Strobacaxi Katakuri literally had to step in cause Big Mom couldn't see the future.

Of course, not scaling Big Mom means we sure aren't going to give it to Ray either.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Jun 23, 2020)

is all I have to say.  Linlin mid diffs Prime Ray. A homie is enough to beat him while she stuffs her face with food and watch him struggle. Old Ray gets neg diffed like Queen.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 23, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> is all I have to say.  Linlin gets mid diffed by Prime Ray. A stolen homie is enough to beat her while Ray drinks booze and watches her struggle. Old Ray high diffs her like Queen did.



You are making progress i see


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## MO (Jun 23, 2020)

Roger's subordinate doesn't stand a chance here. After all, his captain ran away from her himself.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Ray shits on her in the Haki department. His only physical stats below her are durability and possibly strenght.
> 
> Ray high - extreme diff 10/10


ray's portrayal in the fb was pretty bad mate.



Raikiri19 said:


> Pirate King > typical Yonko or typical Admiral
> 
> And Ray wasn't just the Pirate King's First Mate. He wasn't like Katakuri to Big Mom or Marco to Whitebeard, or King to Kaido, aka someone strong but massively weaker than the captain. Roger and Rayleigh had a comparabile relationship to Rufy and Zoro, where the captain is stronger but the First Mate is not far below, he is absolutely comparable. Rayleigh was Roger's partner.
> 
> ...


pk level isnt a thing, neither roger nor wb beat any top tier ever, they may have been a bit stronger by like a 2/5% marging but thats it. Try again, and no way any yonko is losing to rayleigh. 

Dude's portrayal was asscheeks in the fb.



Juub said:


> Rayleigh in his prime was one of the closest to the Pirate King.
> 
> Don’t get it twisted, *Prime Roger would mop the floor with any version of Big Mom*. Rayleigh high-diff to extreme diff.



Surely why BM was reigning over her territory undefeated and undeterred for decades, with roger opting to sneak in and out. With bm having a crew way younger and less powerfull than it is now, and while constantly pregnant. Surely his almost equal Rayleigh and him would’ve mid diffed her or worse instead of playing cops and robbers.



MasterBeast said:


> Far from prime and where was this mentioned?
> Kaidou beat oden? Is this before or after old granny saved him and distracted Oden?


i guess moriha was a top tier backk then since not even 3 years ago kaido was fighting him.
Sengoku said since rocks they grew stronger till now, you may nitpick this one
Then Oden told him to get as strong as he can, now you may still nitpick this but it is now more evidence that he got stronger than not.

Oda saying it before the flashback starts(sengoku) then near its end(Oden) is i believe hints he is putting there for people to see.

I hope youre smart enough to see them, either way im pretty sure im right but if im not thats fine too.



Corax said:


> Zoro is Luffy's parnter. If Luffy is 100,Zoro is 90/95 or something. Same with Ray and Roger.


Whats that got to do with roger in relation to current top tiers ? Shiki was about to kill roger ffs if not for that storm, roger never BEAT any top tier ever. He considers admirals threats. Wake up, there is no pk level. Just strongest top tier.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Jun 24, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Well every Logia admiral has it for sure, they showed it on MF.



When did all Admirals show FS? Aokiji yes, but the other two.



Strobacaxi said:


> I dont see why we wouldn't powerscale haki. It's a power that everyone has and everyone worth mentioning is strong at it. It's an essential tool for every mid tier+. Why would the Yonkous not be the greatest in every way at them?



Just cause you think they should have doesn’t mean they do have. 

Yonko's are strong in their own way. They don’t have to be best at every single thing.          



> BM isn't particulary fast, if she doesn't have FS, then she would only be able to tie with Katakuri, as she can't touch him. And that's an absurd idea to contemplate



BM is fast enough to comfortably react to G4 and fight Kaido who beat G4 Luffy.

So she is sufficiently fast. She also may have some other power that she can use to beat Katakuri.

BTW, I am not saying she doesn’t have it but I wouldn’t say she has it until she shows it.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> You are missing the point entirely. I argue about Kizaru's physical strenght which matched the WSM and Rayleigh. MF also had other Admirals that matched WB pretty equally in different conditions so it's not an outlier either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Akainu despite being stronger than aokiji takes 10 days to win. Wiggian sleeps.

Kaido vs bm ends in a day without a clear winner. Muuuh rumour, why he didn’t mid diff!

The fact that you still believe bm needs to be fed to fight top tiers to continue fighting is appalling. She only gets those when she craves a specific food mate. She fought kaido for more than a day just fine.

Reactions: Like 1


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## VileNotice (Jun 24, 2020)

Gotta give it to BM high diff. A more interesting question to me is where Prime Ray is in relation to Shanks, who seems to have almost the exact same toolset and might be the weakest Yonko.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Corax (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Whats that got to do with roger in relation to current top tiers ? Shiki was about to kill roger ffs if not for that storm, roger never BEAT any top tier ever. He considers admirals threats. Wake up, there is no pk level. Just strongest top tier.


It was stated by Chinjao and Luffy himself that you need to beat yonko and admirals to become PK. Regardless of are you yonko or admiral fan PK is still>them by canon.


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 24, 2020)

Corax said:


> It was stated by Chinjao and Luffy himself that you need to beat yonko and admirals to become PK. Regardless of are you yonko or admiral fan PK is still>them by canon.


That's not literal though. Roger didn't even beat WB to become PK. Roger didn't beat Sengoku and Garp to become PK. They are obstacles on the way but you don't actually have to "beat" them. Also, we've already been told that Roger never beat Big Mom.
Edit: PK is of course stronger than Yonkous though (barring WB) but I doubt he's in a whole other tier than them. He'd require high diff-extreme diff to beat BM/Kaidou and probably shanks too


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 24, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> He'd require high diff-extreme diff to beat BM/Kaidou and probably shanks too


He’d hit another home run like he did to oden


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## MrPopo (Jun 24, 2020)

Big mom wins after a difficult fight


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2020)

Prime Rayleigh was implied to be > Kizaru. Now personally I would favor Kizaru to beat BM, as he was confident he could stop the meeting between BM and Kaidou; and I’m assuming out of those 2 BM would be the easier one to defeat. However depending on how many homies BM has access to or can create this could easily change as with enough Homies I don’t see anyone besides Gura Fruit users beating BM; and possibly Roger / Shanks / Akainu / Joy Boy / Imu


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## TheWiggian (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Akainu despite being stronger than aokiji takes 10 days to win. Wiggian sleeps.
> 
> Kaido vs bm ends in a day without a clear winner. Muuuh rumour, why he didn’t mid diff!
> 
> The fact that you still believe bm needs to be fed to fight top tiers to continue fighting is appalling. She only gets those when she craves a specific food mate. She fought kaido for more than a day just fine.



That doesn't matter, you guys bet everything on him winning in a one on one and then he faces another Yonkou and all of a sudden his rumoured 1on1 king title shouldn't be taken serious?

If you truly are a fan then stay loyal to it. The evidence piles up that he didn't win against anyone worth something in a fair 1on1.

Also their fight lasted a single night and he did feed her before it, if that wasn't necessary why did Oda have to show it explicitly? That further solidifies her gassing out from hunger like shown at least 3 times in the manga.



OniKaido said:


> ray's portrayal in the fb was pretty bad mate.



Bad portrayal is when you fail to injure weak trio characters and get blitzed by a array of people in the verse who shouldn't even be sniffing something on a yonkous level.

Also when you get captured by a gag character that chains you like a warthog and brings you for dinner.


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## Fel1x (Jun 24, 2020)

Old Legends propaganda works great, otherwise only some crazy dudes would vote for Ray

propaganda works so great people unknowingly ignoring Oden confirming Kaido is the strongest person ever


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## yantos (Jun 24, 2020)

Ray wasn't your average first mate he was always lumped in with the top legends, back then when that marine officer wanted to report Rayleigh's residency in shabondy archipelago, grap stopped him and asked "*are you suggesting that marines take on two legends at the same time?*" as they were preparing for marinford war, of course that does not mean he was WB's equal, he is not, but that was garp speaking so it was oda's way to show that ray is up there.
on the other hand despite the constant humiliation from Oda meme was really impressive, and tbh I never felt for a moment that she was outright inferior to kaido himself nor that a fight between them will end in less then extreme diff. so a fight between her and rayleigh is anyone's guess imo.
and the fact that prime ray lacks feats does not help at all, so when all fails you leave it to your inner wanker.
Ray wins .

Reactions: Like 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 24, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> Old Legends propaganda works great, otherwise only some crazy dudes would vote for Ray
> 
> propaganda works so great people unknowingly ignoring Oden confirming Kaido is the strongest person ever


Is oden stronger than whitebeard and Roger?


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## Fel1x (Jun 24, 2020)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Is oden stronger than whitebeard and Roger?


why did you ask?


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 24, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> propaganda works so great people unknowingly ignoring Oden confirming Kaido is the strongest person ever


When did that happen


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 24, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> why did you ask?


Is oden stronger than whitebeard or Roger?


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## Fel1x (Jun 24, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> When did that happen


Oden admitted no one from his era can defeat him. but its only 1 way of understanding what he said. other people found another meaning of his words to be fair


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## TheWiggian (Jun 24, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> Oden admitted no one from his era can defeat him. but its only 1 way of understanding what he said. other people found another meaning of his words to be fair



20 years from his Prime Kaido was alrdy stronger than Roger and WB 

Doesn't even make sense even by Yonko set standarts


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## Fel1x (Jun 24, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> 20 years from his Prime Kaido was alrdy stronger than Roger and WB
> 
> Doesn't even make sense even by Yonko set standarts


yeah, whatever, keep yourself positive before you see Hybrid Kaido
I already want to see all damage control threads from admiral wankers or some members leaving the forum like @Admiral Kizaru

you already damage controlling Kaido oneshotting Luffy with old legend's hype and even hyping your previous mortal enemy WB


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## Gledania (Jun 24, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> Oden admitted no one from his era can defeat him.


No.


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## Fel1x (Jun 24, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> No.


you should quote the whole post


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## Flame (Jun 24, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> Oden admitted no one from his era can defeat him. but its only 1 way of understanding what he said. other people found another meaning of his words to be fair


No.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 24, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> yeah, whatever, keep yourself positive before you see Hybrid Kaido
> I already want to see all damage control threads from admiral wankers or some members leaving the forum like @Admiral Kizaru
> 
> you already damage controlling Kaido oneshotting Luffy with old legend's hype and even hyping your previous mortal enemy WB



Soon Kaido one shotting Luffy will be accepted globally as an outlier and from the day Kaido falls Yonko set will fall apart that is alrdy stitched together like Doffy's organs 

AK has an important job and lives a successful life compared to others who think they scared him off the forums and was actually a top poster unlike you and me


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## Fel1x (Jun 24, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Soon Kaido one shotting Luffy will be accepted globally as an outlier and from the day Kaido falls Yonko set will fall apart that is alrdy stitched together like Doffy's organs
> 
> AK has an important job and lives a successful life compared to others who think they scared him off the forums and was actually a top poster on the forums unlike others once again


how can Yonko set fall apart with Luffy and BB? they are EoS characters unlike admirals. Luffy is MC, BB is pre-FV or Luffy's ally in Final fight against Imu. but there is still a small possibility Akainu will fight with them against Imu though


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## TheWiggian (Jun 24, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> how can Yonko set fall apart with Luffy and BB? they are EoS characters unlike admirals. Luffy is MC, BB is pre-FV or Luffy's ally in Final fight against Imu. but there is still a small possibility Akainu will fight with them against Imu though



Luffy and BB will rise above mere Yonkou and duke it out who will be PK (>>>Yonks). Then Luffy will go and fight the WG which will have their strongest warriors at the front, the admirals

Considering IMU is Mihawk's brother it's only natural that he will pose a bigger challenge than Shanks


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## Fel1x (Jun 24, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Luffy and BB will rise above mere Yonkou and duke it out who will be PK (>>>Yonks). Then Luffy will go and fight the WG which will have their strongest warriors at the front, the admirals
> 
> Considering IMU is Mihawk's brother it's only natural that he will pose a bigger challenge than Shanks


that is some next level headcanon. what can I say? optimistic

also my post more "admiral fan" than yours. because you are just admitting they will be WG's dogs till the end, while I have still hope Akainu will break free from his slave collar

Probably I should lead admiral fans now, sorry


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## Tenma (Jun 24, 2020)

Oden ran a clinic on Kaido, Roger casually swatted him like a bug when he wasn't even trying to hurt him and his clash with WB left Oden in complete disbelief.

There's an obvious distinction between Roger/WB and the current top dogs.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

Corax said:


> It was stated by Chinjao and Luffy himself that you need to beat yonko and admirals to become PK. Regardless of are you yonko or admiral fan PK is still>them by canon.


No its to surpass rogers, to beat yonko/admirals, cause roger never did. Atleast not on screen or that we saw. The man never beat a single top tier. And was about to die from shiki if he didnt get lucky with that storm.

Now riddle me this, why was he about to die against shiki if he had another person almost as strong as him in his crew hmm?
Why did he choose to sneak around a younger constantly pregnant big mom with a younger and less powerfull crew than she has now if he had a person as powerful as him, and some of ya all saying that person would high/extreme bm.



Tenma said:


> Oden ran a clinic on Kaido, Roger casually swatted him like a bug when he wasn't even trying to hurt him and his clash with WB left Oden in complete disbelief.
> 
> There's an obvious distinction between Roger/WB and the current top dogs.


Wheree do i start with this drivel you said, its like you just skim through the manga and dont read the words. 
The Oden that went against roger was much weaker than the Oden that went against Kaido, manga fact as it is litteraly stated. Then. Roger used a NAMED attack against Oden and didnt swat him like a bug as you claim as oden just got knocked back a few but came back running with a bloody lip, thats the weaker version of Oden btw.

Then, a much stronger version of Oden, attacked an arrogant kaido( i saw arrogant because he was shown to be fighting oden just fine in human form back in the castle) who was in dragon form, the same form that was getting knocked around by luffy, kaido got severely hurt. Fell down. Then Oden got distracted and kaido one hit a stronger version of Oden with a nameless strike. And dont bring up the oh he was snuck, akainu was snuck too by an ENRAGED whitebeard and was still able to tank those hits. Getting snuck doesnt magically remove your durability okay? And weve been shown that Oden was quite durable if nothing else him getting dragged by whitebeards ship for days, weathering storms and shit while holding of to that chain.

So where in this does it show this distinction between roger/wb and current top tiers mate? In your dreams maybe?

Not to mention the fact that im positive Kaido got stronger over the 20 years gap after Odens death.

Refer to my previous posts for why i say so,

You may nitpick sengoku's statement as he just said from rocks days to now they got stronger, so you may say oh well maybe he plateaued 20 years ago, which in itself would be weird for oda to have sengoku say that they are much stronger now if he meant for kaido to plateau during odens flashback.

But then Oden himself tells kaido to get as strong as he can, now you can still nitpick it but the fact remains that there is more evidence that he did than not.

Also notice how Oda wrote in those statements right before the flashback, perhaps to prepare the viewers and tell them that whatever they will see from kaido then wasnt him in prime, and also right before the end of the flashback with Oden again reminding us. 

But i may be wrong,though i dont think so, i just feel like closing off so many options is bad for discussion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> He’d hit another home run like he did to oden


Oh yeah and how did that turn out? With Oden runing back instantly with just a bloody lip, thats a weaker version than the one that fought the kaido that not just 3 years agao was fighting his rival moria. I guess moria was yonko lvl too.



TheWiggian said:


> That doesn't matter, you guys bet everything on him winning in a one on one and then he faces another Yonkou and all of a sudden his rumoured 1on1 king title shouldn't be taken serious?
> 
> If you truly are a fan then stay loyal to it. The evidence piles up that he didn't win against anyone worth something in a fair 1on1.
> 
> ...


When tf did i say it shouldnt be taken serious? 
I still say hell win but it takes more than that to determine a winner, him being the 1vs1 king doesnt mean he mid/high diffs people. Thats your problem and the way your perceived it matey. The fact that oda says those guys are around equal and that they are in a deadlock and that he keeps bunching up admirals/yonko together, should tell you that they are all around the same level. 
Not my fault you saw kaidos intro and warped your mind into thinking oh yeah he mid/high diffs people on the same tier as him.

Correction, kaido didnt feed her, his people did. And if you were actually paying attention to the manga, you would know that big mom or Olin was complaining about being hungry from okobore town all the way to udon, she was repeating how hungry she was for multiple chapters, so she was just normally hungry because she hasnt eaten in a while.


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## Tenma (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Wheree do i start with this drivel you said, its like you just skim through the manga and dont read the words.
> The Oden that went against roger was much weaker than the Oden that went against Kaido, manga fact as it is litteraly stated. Then. Roger used a NAMED attack against Oden and didnt swat him like a bug as you claim as oden just got knocked back a few but came back running with a bloody lip, thats the weaker version of Oden btw.
> 
> Then, a much stronger version of Oden, attacked an arrogant kaido( i saw arrogant because he was shown to be fighting oden just fine in human form back in the castle) who was in dragon form, the same form that was getting knocked around by luffy, kaido got severely hurt. Fell down. Then Oden got distracted and kaido one hit a stronger version of Oden with a nameless strike. And dont bring up the oh he was snuck, akainu was snuck too by an ENRAGED whitebeard and was still able to tank those hits. Getting snuck doesnt magically remove your durability okay? And weve been shown that Oden was quite durable if nothing else him getting dragged by whitebeards ship for days, weathering storms and shit while holding of to that chain.
> ...



It doesn't really matter if it was a named attack- Roger was trying to recruit Oden, not kill him, and the 'no-name attack' he reserved for Whitebeard was clearly far stronger. Of course Oden survived that as Roger was literally tryna make nice- but Oden's reaction to WB/Roger's clash pretty much says it all.

I think Kaido did get stronger, but that just means trying to use Oden's statement 20 years ago to argue he's>Roger/WB is silly as he was clearly significantly weaker than those 2 at that point.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

Tenma said:


> It doesn't really matter if it was a named attack- Roger was trying to recruit Oden, not kill him, and the 'no-name attack' he reserved for Whitebeard was clearly far stronger. Of course Oden survived that as Roger was literally tryna make nice- but Oden's reaction to WB/Roger's clash pretty much says it all.
> 
> I think Kaido did get stronger, but that just means trying to use Oden's statement 20 years ago to argue he's>Roger/WB is silly as he was clearly significantly weaker than those 2 at that point.


I never said kaido was > primbeard/roger tf, what ive been arguing is that he and other top tiers of this gen are not that far off. If primebeard/roger were 100 then yonko/admirals should range from 96-98 imo. Of course those two win but itd be a challenge, as roger himself considered admirals a challenge. Nothing indicates that they were far above the rest, and the fb didnt help that notion.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> When tf did i say it shouldnt be taken serious?
> I still say hell win but it takes more than that to determine a winner, him being the 1vs1 king doesnt mean he mid/high diffs people. Thats your problem and the way your perceived it matey. The fact that oda says those guys are around equal and that they are in a deadlock and that he keeps bunching up admirals/yonko together, should tell you that they are all around the same level.
> Not my fault you saw kaidos intro and warped your mind into thinking oh yeah he mid/high diffs people on the same tier as him.
> 
> Correction, kaido didnt feed her, his people did. And if you were actually paying attention to the manga, you would know that big mom or Olin was complaining about being hungry from okobore town all the way to udon, she was repeating how hungry she was for multiple chapters, so she was just normally hungry because she hasnt eaten in a while.



It doesn't matter you hype this dude up for the portrayal of his title that everyone bets on him to win 1on1 fights and when he enters a fight without winning the title is legit being thrown big shade at considering it's alrdy based on an in verse rumour. I get your point that he can't just go and dispatch her in a few hours especially after she been just fed, which he should've been able to do if she went hungry into the fight though.

The guy had 2 true 1on1 fights in the manga, 3 if you count Oden which resulted in 2 of them contradicting his title. Guess we should wait longer but from the way the things are right now it doesn't look too good for him.

It doesn't matter who actually fed her, Kaido, his men, strawhats, the point was that she received food as we know without food she isn't anywhere close to her true strenght. Her stomach needs to be filled every few hours similiar to Luffy, food cravings make these things even worse.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> It doesn't matter you hype this dude up for the portrayal of his title that everyone bets on him to win 1on1 fights and when he enters a fight without winning the title is legit being thrown big shade at considering it's alrdy based on an in verse rumour. I get your point that he can't just go and dispatch her in a few hours especially after she been just fed, which he should've been able to do if she went hungry into the fight though.
> 
> The guy had 2 true 1on1 fights in the manga, 3 if you count Oden which resulted in 2 of them contradicting his title. Guess we should wait longer but from the way the things are right now it doesn't look too good for him.
> 
> It doesn't matter who actually fed her, Kaido, his men, strawhats, the point was that she received food as we know without food she isn't anywhere close to her true strenght. Her stomach needs to be filled every few hours similiar to Luffy, food cravings make these things even worse.


I just told you that it’s your problem if you think his 1vs1 hype means he mid-high diffs people on his tier it’s on you mate. I just brought you the akainu/aokiji example. Fights last a while, even if you are stronger.
I hope you understand this.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Oh yeah and how did that turn out? With Oden runing back instantly with just a bloody lip, thats a weaker version than the one that fought the kaido that not just 3 years agao was fighting his rival moria. I guess moria was yonko lvl too.


Come on now that was to show he was way above oden. Roger is portrayed as the summit in the clouds and kaido got sliced and diced. The flashback did nothing but dehype kaido. He’s still the safest bet for current strongest but there’s a gap between him and the very top of one piece.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> I just told you that it’s your problem if you think his 1vs1 hype means he mid-high diffs people on his tier it’s on you mate. I just brought you the akainu/aokiji example. Fights last a while, even if you are stronger.
> I hope you understand this.



And i alrdy told you that if you consider his standing so high the results of his fights will reflect badly on his rumoured title. I don't expect him to mid diff any admiral or yonkou, iam just saying every fight that ends with him not finishing the job as his victory is bad portrayal.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Come on now that was to show he was way above oden. Roger is portrayed as the summit in the clouds and kaido got sliced and diced. The flashback did nothing but dehype kaido. He’s still the safest bet for current strongest but there’s a gap between him and the very top of one piece.


Your problem is you can not differentiate the different timelines at play during the flashback itself and you also assume kaido didn’t get stronger by a good deal. 
You also overhype the oden roger interaction. The simple fact is he took the attack and was fine with a bloody lip. A way weaker version as per the manga than the one that fought kaido. Another fact for you, kaido was fine fighting against a bloodlusted much more powerful of oden that took Rogers attack and clashed with primebeard 
But you guys ofc disregard that and just take the one where kaido in his dragon form( meaning he can’t block, also the form in which luffy was ragdolling in the current timeline). Kaido made a mistake of overestimating his abilities in dragon form and paid for it.
. Kaido and oden back then were relative to each other in strength imo, oden was wary of him and wanted to kill him in his sleep/drunk.

And all this was oden as much stronger version than the one that took Rogers attack ( however you wanna put it), and then went down to one nameless hit from kaido.

Then he got even stronger .


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> And i alrdy told you that if you consider his standing so high the results of his fights will reflect badly on his rumoured title. I don't expect him to mid diff any admiral or yonkou, iam just saying every fight that ends with him not finishing the job as his victory is bad portrayal.


Not really since again were were shown that fights between top tiers last a long time to determine a winner even if you are stronger. You are the one who wants him to finish the job faster for some ungodly reason.


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 24, 2020)

Tenma said:


> Oden ran a clinic on Kaido, Roger casually swatted him like a bug when he wasn't even trying to hurt him and his clash with WB left Oden in complete disbelief.
> 
> There's an obvious distinction between Roger/WB and the current top dogs.


Oden still got one shot by Kaido. IT was not Oden walking all over Kaidou, Oden got one good hit in, which caused decent damage, but Kaido got up in a couple of seconds. Oden was much stronger when he fought Kaidou than when he "fought" roger. And Kaidou is much much stronger than he was at the time.

Having said that, obviously, Kaidou isn't as strong as Roger.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Oden still got one shot by Kaido. IT was not Oden walking all over Kaidou, Oden got one good hit in, which caused decent damage, but Kaido got up in a couple of seconds. Oden was much stronger when he fought Kaidou than when he "fought" roger. And Kaidou is much much stronger than he was at the time.
> 
> Having said that, obviously, Kaidou isn't as strong as Roger.


I keep saying if roger/wb are 100 then the rest of current top tiers are 96-98


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## Rp4lyf (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Your problem is you can not differentiate the different timelines at play during the flashback itself and you also assume kaido didn’t get stronger by a good deal.
> You also overhype the oden roger interaction. The simple fact is he took the attack and was fine with a bloody lip. A way weaker version as per the manga than the one that fought kaido. Another fact for you, kaido was fine fighting against a bloodlusted much more powerful of oden that took Rogers attack and clashed with primebeard
> But you guys ofc disregard that and just take the one where kaido in his dragon form( meaning he can’t block, also the form in which luffy was ragdolling in the current timeline). Kaido made a mistake of overestimating his abilities in dragon form and paid for it.
> . Kaido and oden back then were relative to each other in strength imo, oden was wary of him and wanted to kill him in his sleep/drunk.
> ...


He was not much stronger than when he fought Roger. He was in his 3rd year of Piracy when he fought Roger. He was only with Roger for 1 year. He then went back to Wano and danced for 5 years doing nothing.


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## Extravlad (Jun 24, 2020)

If Prime Ray is = Mihawk then he wins extreme difficulty


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> He was not much stronger than when he fought Roger. He was in his 3rd year of Piracy when he fought Roger. He was only with Roger for 1 year. He then went back to Wano and danced for 5 years doing nothing.


There is litteraly a panel saying he was much stronger than when he left but if you wanna be nitpicky, have at it.


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## Rp4lyf (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> There is litteraly a panel saying he was much stronger than when he left but if you wanna be nitpicky, have at it.


It said he was a lot stronger than when he left Wano with Whitebeard, but he he was on the sea for 4 years in total. Oden joined Roger's crew when he had been a pirate for 3 years. 

He then only traveled with Roger for 1 year meaning, when Roger fodderized him, he was not that different from when he fought Kaido 5 6 years later, since he spent 5 years in Wano dancing, doing nothing.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> It said he was a lot stronger than when he left Wano with Whitebeard, but he he was on the sea for 4 years in total. Oden joined Roger's crew when he had been a pirate for 3 years.
> 
> He then only traveled with Roger for 1 year meaning, when Roger fodderized him, he was not that different from when he fought Kaido 5 6 years later, since he spent 5 years in Wano dancing, doing nothing.


Pushing him back a bit with a named attack, and doing nothing but a bloody lip on him is him getting fodderized? Damn you guys are so mean spirit and hilarious when it comes to your bias.


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 24, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> It said he was a lot stronger than when he left Wano with Whitebeard, but he he was on the sea for 4 years in total. Oden joined Roger's crew when he had been a pirate for 3 years.
> 
> He then only traveled with Roger for 1 year meaning, when Roger fodderized him, he was not that different from when he fought Kaido 5 6 years later, since he spent 5 years in Wano dancing, doing nothing.


Roger never "fodderized him" he caught Oden off guard with a named attack, Oden didn't have time to counter it with his own named attack and could only block it. Oden blocked the attack and received minimal injury running back to Roger with a bloody lip. Why act like Roger destroyed Oden when in reality most characters wouldn't be able to do much in that situation.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Roger never "fodderized him" he caught Oden off guard with a named attack, Oden didn't have time to counter it with his own named attack and could only block it. Oden blocked the attack and received minimal injury running back to Roger with a bloody lip. Why act like Roger destroyed Oden when in reality most characters wouldn't be able to do much in that situation.


Leave them be, they are obviously biased and delusional it seems.


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## Rp4lyf (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Leave them be, they are obviously biased and delusional it seems.


What Roger did to Oden is similar to What Kong Gun did to Doflamingo, meaning he was fodderized, despite running full speed towards Roger while he was Mid attack with his swords in front of his face. He still got hit, sent to the other side of the island, bleeding internally.

Kaido one shot Oden with a non named attack from behind while Oden was offgaurd.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> What Roger did to Oden is similar to What Kong Gun did to Doflamingo, meaning he was fodderized, despite running full speed towards Roger while he was Mid attack with his swords in front of his face. He still got hit, sent to the other side of the island, bleeding internally.
> 
> Kaido one shot Oden with a non named attack from behind while Oden was offgaurd.


lmfao what? bleeding internally? sent to the other side of the island? What kinda manga are you reading mate?
he got pushed into a tree and was fine with a bleeding lip.

Whitebeard enraged snuk akainu and akainu was fine later, you dont magically lose your durability if you get snuck mate. 
Lay off the headcanon.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Your problem is you can not differentiate the different timelines at play during the flashback itself and you also assume kaido didn’t get stronger by a good deal.
> You also overhype the oden roger interaction. The simple fact is he took the attack and was fine with a bloody lip. A way weaker version as per the manga than the one that fought kaido. Another fact for you, kaido was fine fighting against a bloodlusted much more powerful of oden that took Rogers attack and clashed with primebeard
> But you guys ofc disregard that and just take the one where kaido in his dragon form( meaning he can’t block, also the form in which luffy was ragdolling in the current timeline). Kaido made a mistake of overestimating his abilities in dragon form and paid for it.
> . Kaido and oden back then were relative to each other in strength imo, oden was wary of him and wanted to kill him in his sleep/drunk.
> ...


I can can differentiate it’s about PORTRAYAL you’re over thinking it. Before the flashback kaido looked invincible also lol at equating kaido’s cheap shot, I know I know he wanted a fair fight, to the river scene.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> I can can differentiate it’s about PORTRAYAL you’re over thinking it. Before the flashback kaido looked invincible also lol at equating kaido’s cheap shot, I know I know he wanted a fair fight, to the river scene.


River?

Whitebeard snuck akainu and akainu was fine, you dont magically lose durability if you get snuck. It is a testament to kaido's strength that he down a stronger versio of oden than the one that took rogers attack with just a bloody lip to show for it.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> River?
> 
> Whitebeard snuck akainu and akainu was fine, you dont magically lose durability if you get snuck. It is a testament to kaido's strength that he down a stronger versio of oden than the one that took rogers attack with just a bloody lip to show for it.


Shut up omg lol you live up to the user name that you can’t differentiate the scenes


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Shut up omg lol you live up to the user name that you can’t differentiate the scenes


What scene are you talking about, resorting to insults only shows that you have no argument in the first place.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> What scene are you talking about, resorting to insults only shows that you have no argument in the first place.


The purpose of the flashback is to establish multiple characters chiefly oden but kaido and others as well. Going into it we hear how amazing oden is and many got the feeling somehow kaido fought dirty. How the fight actually went down was to show us oden really was that amazing, kaido didn’t beat him fairly, but we find out that kaido actually wanted to fight it out fair. So we get it so that oden in no way looks bad in the loss and that kaido is honorable, at least in combat, to the point that instead of being grateful to the person who saved his life he executes her. It cheapens the scene and kaido’s characterization if that blow is not decisive so it has to be.


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## Fujitora (Jun 24, 2020)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> The purpose of the flashback is to establish multiple characters chiefly oden but kaido and others as well. Going into it we hear how amazing oden is and many got the feeling somehow kaido fought dirty. How the fight actually went down was to show us oden really was that amazing, kaido didn’t beat him fairly, but we find out that kaido actually wanted to fight it out fair. So we get it so that oden in no way looks bad in the loss and that kaido is honorable, at least in combat, to the point that instead of being grateful to the person who saved his life he executes her. It cheapens the scene and kaido’s characterization if that blow is not decisive so it has to be.


Kaido is not honorable in the japanese sense, more so in the viking sense(might makes right, winning is honorable).
But good post bro.


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## Gianfi (Jun 25, 2020)

Ray is likely just admiral level, so Bm high diffs him

Reactions: Like 2


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## Nox (Jun 25, 2020)

Rayleigh [Prime] > Linlin > Skinnylin ? Rayleigh [Old]. Comparison of Abilities against Old WB > Admission of Abilities inferiority to Old WB. Though, I'd be an interesting match-up between their weakest known versions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 25, 2020)

Mihawk = Prime Ray > Shanks > Big Mom

Prime Ray extreme diffs

Reactions: Like 2


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 25, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Kaido is not honorable in the japanese sense, more so in the viking sense(might makes right, winning is honorable).
> But good post bro.


Slightly disagree, perhaps I’m misunderstanding, idt kaido is the type to let a chance pass by but he wants to win straight up basically


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## Red Admiral (Jun 28, 2020)

people need to understand .... last flash back killed a massive part of Dark King hype ....

weakest Yonko = beat entire WBP to the point Marco admit even in front of Teach alone they were hopeless

Dark king and whole crew behind him .... match a crew of kids and Oden 

Mib Mom > Teach > Dark King


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## Amol (Jun 28, 2020)

Obviously Ray wins.
He is basically EoS Zoro and I think only PK level characters(like EoS Luffy) should be able to beat Zoro. Zoro basically would be in Yonkou level himself .
That obviously means Rayleigh was too. He has great feats for that after all. In his old age when he was rusty he stalemated an Admiral. That is actually better feat that anything Big Mom so far has done.


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## Red Admiral (Jun 28, 2020)

Amol said:


> Obviously Ray wins.
> He is basically EoS Zoro and I think only PK level characters(like EoS Luffy) should be able to beat Zoro. Zoro basically would be in Yonkou level himself .
> That obviously means Rayleigh was too. He has great feats for that after all. In his old age when he was rusty he stalemated an Admiral. That is actually better feat that anything Big Mom so far has done.


ignoring EoS power level

how is that Dark King is equal to EoS

Zoro main power is swordsmanship and he WILL unlock Black Blade

not Only he didn't mange to do that





he don't even had a single sword ... and use random weapons .... (the 2nd one is a fan art but that's indeed is his sword)

so how can he be equal to Prime Zoro when

- he can't unlock Black Blade
- he don't even have a named-fame sword

what type of master swordsman is that?


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 28, 2020)

I thought the Roger pirates versus wbp was cleared up? Also Red Admiral is dumb as all get out


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## Steven (Jun 29, 2020)

Amol said:


> That is actually better feat that anything Big Mom so far has done.


BM fought Kaido on even ground.Thats better than anything Ray ever show´d

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Jun 29, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Ray was never Yonko level. *At best he is around the level of the Admirals* even then he lacks a hax devil fruit which the Admirals have that can close the gap. She beats him Low High Difficulty.




lol what

An old (approx 75 years of age) and _diabetic_ Rayleigh fought evenly with Kizaru and he's at best admiral level?
Prime Rayleigh is easily yonkou level. Particularly if someone like Teach can reach Yonkou level PTS.


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## CaptainCommander (Jun 29, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> Particularly if someone like Teach can reach Yonkou level PTS.



How does this relate to Ray at all?


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## Skaddix (Jun 29, 2020)

I think Rayleigh vs Kizaru is overrated Kizaru is a lazy stoner and probably decided to use a sword for fun. There is nothing to suggest he is primarily a swormaster.


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## Tenma (Jun 30, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> weakest Yonko = beat entire WBP to the point Marco admit even in front of Teach alone they were hopeless
> 
> Dark king and whole crew behind him .... match a crew of kids and Oden



Those aren't really comparable quotients at all. Oden is far stronger than Marco.

Teach only soloed the WB remnants in anime filler anyway, besides that it's pretty logical on a personnel-by-personnel basis why they lost


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## Red Admiral (Jun 30, 2020)

Tenma said:


> Those aren't really comparable quotients at all. Oden is far stronger than Marco.
> 
> Teach only soloed the WB remnants in anime filler anyway, besides that it's pretty logical on a personnel-by-personnel basis why they lost



Marco , Jozu and Vista are able to beat Oden for sure ...

and they still have 10 other vet level and around 1500 solders

but 

they admit they were hopeless to beat Teach

they were capable of match entire Roger Pirates for 3 days

not the same case


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## Tenma (Jun 30, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> Marco , Jozu and Vista are able to beat Oden for sure ...
> 
> and they still have 10 other vet level and around 1500 solders
> 
> ...



Eh, Oden is far enough above Marco that adding weaker guys to his side wouldn't make a difference. He was beating Kaido, was a 'brother', not a son to WB...it makes sense that he is the equivalent of Rayleigh on the WB's side.

Besides, nothing implies those 3 had the luxury to gang up on Teach, who has his own subordinates and commanders that could take care of one-armed Jozu, Vista and the others while he battled Marco. That is what is implied in manga panels where we only see Marco fighting Teach.


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## Red Admiral (Jun 30, 2020)

Tenma said:


> Eh, Oden is far enough above Marco that adding weaker guys to his side wouldn't make a difference. He was beating Kaido, was a 'brother', not a son to WB...it makes sense that he is the equivalent of Rayleigh on the WB's side.
> 
> Besides, nothing implies those 3 had the luxury to gang up on Teach, who has his own subordinates and commanders that could take care of one-armed Jozu, Vista and the others while he battled Marco. That is what is implied in manga panels where we only see Marco fighting Teach.



Jozu and Vista are weaker guys? they are arguably his equals ...
if you doubt make a thread about those 3 Vs Oden ... I really look for that

Besides

Oden was a brother in terms of who he was not power
in terms of power
Roger and Whitebeard fighting full power made Oden lose his shits in wonder ....


Besides

I'm not saying Teach "did" beat all of them ....
I'm saying Marco imply he "could" and that's enough ...

Besides

Dark King wasn't alone in that fight ... he had the King crew on his back ... and yet he wasn't able to win it


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## Tenma (Jun 30, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> Jozu and Vista are weaker guys? they are arguably his equals ...
> if you doubt make a thread about those 3 Vs Oden ... I really look for that
> 
> Besides
> ...



I don't see why it'd be so unbelievable for Oden to beat just the 3 of them when you think Teach can solo the entire WB pirates. And yeah, Marco is stronger than Jozu and Vista, that's pretty obvious.

It's pretty ambiguous what Marco implies through his dialogue, what we do kn9w is that there was a full war between BB's and Marco's full armies...in which Marco lowing was basically commonsense.


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## Captain Altintop (Jun 30, 2020)

My current view, variation with more or less 0.5-1 points possible.

100 Roger, Prime WB
... ... ...
96 Old WB, Prime Garp
95 Prime Ray, Prime Sengoku, Shanks, FA Akainu
94 Kaido (rather 94.5), Kizaru, Aokiji, Old Garp
93 Big Mum, Teach, Fujitora, Greenbull, Prime Oden, Old Rayleigh, Old Sengoku

Prime Ray beats BM 10/10 *with high* (very high) difficulty after 1-2 days at most.
Prime Ray vs Shanks would be a 7 days+ fight extreme diff either way.

People underrate his position and portrayal, he is no Katakuri or Marco or King who seems to have a bigger gap between them and their Captains.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jul 7, 2020)

*Prime Ray mops the floor with Linlin.


Ray makes Linlin's biggest gimmick, her durability, obsolete. Not only does Rayleigh possess the barrier haki, that Ruffy implied was enough to hurt Kaido*

*who has a better dura hype than Linlin, Kaido taking a free fall from 10k meters and takes an onslaught of G4 attacks, without any protection, and ends up being disappointed*

*Spoiler*: __ 








*vs

Linlin falling from a castle and leaning forward putting her body-weight in use, uses hardening, counter force, and it still makes her arm rattle after only one G4 attack*

*Spoiler*: __ 








*but he also possesses the advanced advanced version of COA, the bypassing durability one*

*Rayleigh is someone for whom, in his old age, the navy needs preparations to even attempt to catch him*

*someone who in his old age and without picking up a sword in a long time could keep an Admiral at bay*

*Spoiler*: __ 








*and implied that in his prime he could have successfully helped the strawhats and dealt with Kizaru at the same time*

*And Kizaru is the man who volunteered himself to stop 2 Yonko*

*and was only stopped by Akainu due to the unknown military force in Wano. I stress again Wano, meaning Kizaru was gonna go to Wano, not somewhere along the way but Wano.*


*His fight with Kizaru showed his great COO, as he was able to battle Kizaru in cqc without anyone gaining a particular advantage*

*Spoiler*: __ 












*He was able to sense how many animals present at the island were stronger than Ruffy*


*I wouldn't be surprised if he has FS as well.

At the very least, from the way Ray spoke, *

*His speed was highlighted as well, being able to match Kizaru in CQC


What are Linlin's COO feats again? That's right, being the honorary clown at the wedding party, needing Dogtooth's help.



Even portrayal wise, Rayleigh dwarfs Linlin.

He is the first mate of the RP*

*a notorious pirate known in every book and all over the world*

*Nami, who knows of him had no clue who the yonko are*


*Sanji who knows about Rayleigh, *

*Ray is someone who has their CoC haki in old age compared to a prime Yonko*


*Jimbei mentions that for a man who would be a member of the PK's crew, a mere Yonko is nothing*

*and Ray is not only a member of the PK crew.

*

*He is the* *closest confidant to Roger, a man always depicted next to Roger*

*Spoiler*: __ 














*Ray is a man whom Roger calls partner*

*A man called legend by Garp, similar to WB*





*Prime Ray is not losing against Linlin.


Heck, even Old Rayleigh might beat her 




You may call me Sensei. *​

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 4 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Shanks (Jul 7, 2020)

I don’t know how Big Mom isn’t dead yet tbh. Oda’s given some massive contradictions with her feats and portrayal.

Big Mom have a pretty serious weakness I.e stupidity and hunger. No matter how strong she is, she ain’t winning with such a stamina and intelligent beast like Prime Ray.


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## AmitDS (Jul 8, 2020)

Big Mom. She's an emperor, hasn't been shown past her prime since she's likely some mutant freak of nature and she just stalemated Kaido who is younger and in his prime. Honestly it's not even confirmed that her and Kaido are even really weaker than Roger or WB in their primes since we don't actually know the difference between Shanks, Big Mom and Kaido vs prime WB. If Shanks and WB's clash is between Shanks and WB using his full strength when illness and old age isn't acting up in the moment, I'd say there isn't really a gap to speak about and Big Mom could pull off a win against Prime WB and Roger.


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## VileNotice (Jul 8, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> also my post more "admiral fan" than yours. because you are just admitting they will be WG's dogs till the end, while I have still hope Akainu will break free from his slave collar



Akainu of all people going against the WG? And turn the climax into an imbalanced “everyone against God” scenario? please no. We got that already in Naruto, some villains need to stay villains


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## Fel1x (Jul 8, 2020)

VileNotice said:


> Akainu of all people going against the WG? And turn the climax into an imbalanced “everyone against God” scenario? please no. We got that already in Naruto, some villains need to stay villains


Akainu wasn't a villain from the start. but ok I know what you are talking about

and are you sure Imu will fight alone? Gorosei might be very strong or he simply has some royal guardians party with him


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## VileNotice (Jul 8, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> Akainu wasn't a villain from the start. but ok I know what you are talking about
> 
> and are you sure Imu will fight alone? Gorosei might be very strong or he simply has some royal guardians party with him


I'm sure Imu/WG will have a ton of tricks up their sleeves, but I don't really like the idea of the marines fully going against them because it would require the WG to have Godlike powers to stand a chance vs the Strawhat fleet, revolutionaries, and the marines, in which case why would they even need the marines as their main military force in the first place? 

A marine civil war is more likely I think. There is already a good chance that the members of SWORD, Garp, Fujitora, and Sengoku may turn against the WG, not to mention Kuzan as an ex-admiral. Those guys alone tip the scales a lot against Akainu/Kizaru/Ryogokyu, so any of the latter three turning on top of that would be overkill (and out of character for at least Akainu and Kizaru) in my eyes. Akainu is a ruthless law and order guy, and that is what the WG upholds.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steven (Jul 8, 2020)

IM is most likely the final Villain.Either IM or BB


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## adib mahmud (Sep 2, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> Pirate King > typical Yonko or typical Admiral
> 
> And Ray wasn't just the Pirate King's First Mate. He wasn't like Katakuri to Big Mom or Marco to Whitebeard, or King to Kaido, aka someone strong but massively weaker than the captain. Roger and Rayleigh had a comparabile relationship to Rufy and Zoro, where the captain is stronger but the First Mate is not far below, he is absolutely comparable. Rayleigh was Roger's partner.
> 
> ...


Roger and reyleigh both came to the pirate world at the same time so there cant be a big gape between them..also if oden can beat a guy kaido how cant reyleigh beat big momBig Mom Kaido Wb 3 of them came to the pirate world with Rocks D Xebec there right hands marco katakuri king came after a long time And reyleigh came with Roger so Roger is obviously powerful but there shouldn’t be a big gape between them so its clear that reyleigh would win..i dont know why people so much underestimate Reyleigj he is the dark king man


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## Van Basten (Sep 2, 2021)

Prime Rayleigh obviously. Low to middle end of extreme diff.

I didn’t realize this thread existed. Or maybe I forgot about it. Hmm….


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## Draghensalk (Sep 2, 2021)

Old Rayleigh fucked up Kizaru

I expect a Prime Rayleigh to be able beat BM but he would lose to Kaido

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mihawk (Sep 2, 2021)

Prime Ray cuts her up good.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Sep 2, 2021)

Oda Eiichiro hasn't explained why BM doesn't try to convert the weapons of the enemies she is facing, so I assume it's pis.
BM is the strongest woman in the world and if she leaves Rayleigh without a sword she would overwhelm him with blows.BM wins.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## hajimehipo (Sep 4, 2021)

Ray DOES NOT beat shanks in any universe or alternate reality

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Eustathios (Sep 5, 2021)

Rayleigh very high diff


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## AmitDS (Sep 5, 2021)

Big Mom. She was one of the great pirates of her era with Roger, Shiki & WB, the first emperor according to the novels and someone who those three wouldn't mess with. Rayleigh was Roger's first mate and VC. Portrayal alone gives it to her and by feats she stalemate Kaido while he was exhausted from stalemating Kizaru in his old age. Unless someone believes Admirals =/> Emperors no one should believe that prime Rayleigh is equal to WCI Big Mom (I assume this is her without hunger pangs etc.).

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Sep 5, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> while he was exhausted from stalemating Kizaru in his old age and not having fought in like a decade


There. You left something important off so I helped. No need to thank me.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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