# Prime Rayleigh vs top tiers



## Pirao (Mar 7, 2015)

How would he fare against the following opponents?

Prime Garp
Old WB
Current BB
Aokiji
Kaido
Akainu
Big Mom
Kizaru
Shanks


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## Luke (Mar 7, 2015)

-Prime Garp edges him out. He's got more hype. 
-Old Whitebeard edges him out. I can't possibly imagine Rayleigh going from being stronger than the undisputed WSM to weaker than Borsalino just because he didn't keep in good shape. 
-No idea how strong current Blackbeard is, but I doubt he could beat Prime Ray. 
-Ray wins this, high difficulty. 
-Ray wins this, high difficulty.
-Ray wins this, extreme difficulty.
-Ray wins this, high difficulty.
-Ray wins this, high difficulty. 
-Ray wins this, extreme difficulty.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 7, 2015)

Only prime Garp wins on that list


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## Freechoice (Mar 7, 2015)

Prime Garp - Garp high diff
Old WB - I don't know
Current BB - Rayleigh unknown diff
Aokiji - Rayleigh high diff
Kaido - Rayleigh high diff
Akainu - Rayleigh high/extreme diff
Big Mom - Rayleigh low diff
Kizaru - Rayleigh high diff
Shanks - Rayleigh extreme diff


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## Sherlōck (Mar 7, 2015)

*Prime Garp -* Prime Garp High difficulty
*Old WB -* Old WB edges out 51 to 49.  
*Current BB - *Prime Rayleigh.
*Aokiji - *Can go either . Whoever wins extreme difficulty.
*Kaido - *Can go either . Whoever wins extreme difficulty.
*Akainu -* Post PH Akainu high difficulty.
*Big Mom -* Can go either . Whoever wins extreme difficulty.
*Kizaru -* Can go either . Whoever wins extreme difficulty.
*Shanks -* Can go either . Whoever wins extreme difficulty.


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## Coruscation (Mar 7, 2015)

Prime Garp - 55/45, Rayleigh has lethality, Garp has power & endurance
Old WB - 50/50, WB has power and endurance, Ray has speed and stamina
Current BB - Ray wins high diff
Aokiji - Ray wins high diff 
Kaido - Ray wins high-extreme diff
Akainu - Ray wins high-extreme diff
Big Mom - Ray wins high-extreme diff
Kizaru - Ray wins high diff
Shanks - Ray wins high-extreme diff


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## Amol (Mar 7, 2015)

I consider Prime Ray to as strong as Old WB but just without illness which makes quite difference.
Prime Garp : Prime Garp wins with High(mid) diff. Better hype. Better Portrayal.
Old WB : Prime Ray wins with extreme diff.
Current BB : idk
Aokiji: Prime Ray wins High(mid) diff.
Kaido: Prime Ray wins High(mid) diff. 
Akainu: Prime Ray wins High(mid) diff. 
Big Mom: Prime Ray wins High(mid) diff. 
Kizaru: Prime Ray wins High(low) diff. 
Shanks: Prime Ray wins High(mid) diff.


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## Vengeance (Mar 7, 2015)

Something like this imo:

Prime Garp: Prime Garp extreme difficulty
Old WB: Can go either way
Current BB: Can go either way
Aokiji: Prime Rayleigh very high difficulty
Kaido: Prime Rayleigh very high - extreme difficulty
Akainu: Prime Rayleigh very high - extreme difficulty
Big Mom: Prime Rayleigh very high difficulty
Kizaru: Prime Rayleigh very high difficulty
Shanks: Can go either way


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## Dr. White (Mar 7, 2015)

Pirao said:


> > Prime Garp
> 
> 
> Loses Extreme Diff.
> ...


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 7, 2015)

I personally don't view prime Rayleigh as any superior to current Shanks/Sakazuki tbh. 

Said it before, but I think it'd be OTT if both the PK and his first mate were decisively better than the best of the current generation. 

With that in mind:

1) Prime Garp - Garp Extreme diff
2) Old WB - WB Extreme diff
3) Current BB - Ray Extreme diff (based on current assumptions)
4) Aokiji - Too close to call though lean Rayleigh
5) Kaido - Too close to call though lean Rayleigh
6) Akainu - Too close to call though lean Akainu
7) Big Mom - Too close to call though lean Rayleigh
8) Kizaru - Too close to call though lean Rayleigh
9) Shanks - Too close to call though lean Shanks


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## trance (Mar 7, 2015)

Loses to prime Garp. Edges out old Whitebeard. Beats the rest with high/very high difficulty.


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## Pirao (Mar 7, 2015)

Trance said:


> Loses to prime Garp. Edges out old Whitebeard. Beats the rest with high/very high difficulty.



That's my view as well. I'm surprised so many people consider old WB superior to him, and specially that so many people consider Shanks equal.


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## savior2005 (Mar 7, 2015)

i think shanks and prime akainu should at least be even to prime ray. there should be at least 1 person from that generation as strong as or stronger than ray.


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## King plasma (Mar 7, 2015)

Prime Garp


I don't know, i don't feel Garp is much stronger than him if at all.Goes either way. Benefit of the doubt goes to Garp. 

Old WB - Rayleigh extreme difficulty if it's marineford WB. Toss up if it's a healthy old man WB.

Shanks - Not sure but the benefit of the doubt goes to Rayleigh imo.

Current BB - Rayleigh extreme difficulty.
Aokiji - Rayleigh extreme difficulty.
Kaido - Rayleigh extreme difficulty.
Akainu - Rayleigh extreme difficulty.
Big Mom - Rayleigh extreme difficulty.
Kizaru - Rayleigh extreme difficulty.


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## ShadoLord (Mar 7, 2015)

Prime Garp: Garp wins extreme-diff
Old WB: Rayleigh wins extreme-diff
Current BB: Rayleigh wins high-dif
Aokiji: Rayleigh wins high-diff
Kaido: Rayleigh wins high/extreme-diff
Akainu: Rayleigh wins high/extreme-diff
Big Mom: Rayleigh wins high-diff
Kizaru: Rayleigh wins high-diff
Shanks: Toss up


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## Bernkastel (Mar 7, 2015)

Trance said:


> Loses to prime Garp. Edges out old Whitebeard. Beats the rest with high/very high difficulty.



Exactly this.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 7, 2015)

Rayleigh Prime vs *Garp Prime* = High (high) diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs Old WB = Extreme diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs Yonkou BB = High (low) diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs Aokiji = High (mid) diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs Kaido = High (high) diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs Akainu = High (mid-high) diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs Big Mom = High (low-mid) diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs The Troll = High (mid) diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs Shanks = High (mid-high) diff

Bonus:

*Rayleigh Prime* vs Mihawk = High (high) diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs Dragon = High (high) diff

Rayleigh Prime vs *EoS WSS Zoro* = High (high) diff
Rayleigh Prime vs *EoS PK Luffy* = High (low) diff
*Rayleigh Prime* vs EoS Sanji = High (mid) diff


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## Dunno (Mar 7, 2015)

Prime Garp - Ray extreme diff
Old WB - Ray extreme diff diff
Current BB - Ray high diff
Aokiji - Ray high diff
Kaido - Ray high diff
Akainu - Ray high diff
Big Mom - Ray high diff
Kizaru -Ray high diff
Shanks - Ray extreme diff


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## Bohemian Knight (Mar 7, 2015)

*Prime Garp*/Ray extreme
Old WB/Ray either way
Current BB/*Ray* high
Aokiji/*Ray* very high
Kaido/*Ray* very high
Akainu/*Ray* extreme
Big Mom/*Ray* very high
Kizaru/*Ray* very high
Shanks/*Ray* extreme


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## Gohara (Mar 7, 2015)

1. Garp wins with around high difficulty at most.  That version of Garp is close to Roger's/Prime Whitebeard's level.

2. Whitebeard wins with around high difficulty at most.  Whitebeard is around as powerful as Roger, and I don't think his power has reduced enough in his old age to become weaker than Roger's First Mate.

3. Rayleigh wins with high to extremely high difficulty.  That's basically speculation.

4. Rayleigh wins with around mid difficulty.  Maybe mid to high difficulty.  That version of Rayleigh is around the middle or a little lower than the middle of Yonkou level, IMO.  The Yonkou have received significantly bigger reactions than the Admirals have so far.

5. It can go either way, but if I have to choose I lean towards Kaidou winning with high to extremely high difficulty.  That's basically speculation.

6. If it's pre time skip Akainu, Rayleigh wins with mid to high difficulty for the same reasoning as Rayleigh defeating Aokiji really.  If it's current Akainu, Rayleigh wins with high to extremely high difficulty, although that's basically speculation.

7. Rayleigh wins with high to extremely high difficulty.  That's basically speculation.

8. Rayleigh wins with around mid difficulty.  Maybe mid to high difficulty.  Aside from the reasoning of Rayleigh defeating Aokiji, old Rayleigh fights on par with Kizaru.

9. Shanks wins with around mid difficulty.  I believe Shanks is more powerful than old Whitebeard and may even be around or close to Roger's/Prime Whitebeard's level due to his role in the series.


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## Canute87 (Mar 7, 2015)

King plasma said:


> Prime Garp
> 
> 
> I don't know, i don't feel Garp is much stronger than him if at all.Goes either way. Benefit of the doubt goes to Garp.
> ...



Garp was more worried about the morale of his soldiers. It didn't really have anything much to do with his own power level to Garp  but you saw the effect Garp had on the pirates by simply just punching Marco and standing up.


Whitebeard and Rayleigh together would force akainu to kill far more running marines.

As for the thread

Prime Garp   -  Garp wins  high to borderline extreme.
Old WB        - Rayleigh wins high difficulty.
Current BB   -  Rayleigh wins borderline high difficulty
Aokiji          - Rayleigh
Kaido          - Unsure about kaidou.
Akainu        -  Rayleigh
Big Mom      - Rayleigh
Kizaru          - Rayleigh
Shanks        - Can see Shanks taking this one.


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## Venom (Mar 7, 2015)

I literally can't see how Old WB could fight against a Prime Rayleigh and come out as the winner.
Old WB has the strength and endurance, two things that the "Dark King" in his Prime should already be grasping.
But in no fucking way has old WB the sufficient stamina to fight against a fresh Prime Rayleigh.
Just my opinion.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 7, 2015)

Prime Ray is the strongest on that list

Prime Ray ~ Prime Zoro
Prime Garp ~ Prime Smoker

Zoro >>> Smoker


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 7, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Prime Ray is the strongest on that list
> 
> Prime Ray ~ Prime Zoro
> Prime Garp ~ Prime Smoker
> ...



Smoker can only dream of being that strong LOL


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 7, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> Smoker can only dream of being that strong LOL



yeah maybe I made the wrong comparison...Coby is probably a better example (epilogue after Luffy dies)


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2015)

I would place Prime-Ray at his weakest around Old-WB at his best and at his strongest around Roger, so that's the range of his potential strength. Keeping that in mind Prime-Ray should definitely beat the color trio; the diff will depend on where he falls in that range. Considering Kaidou, Shanks, and Big Mom should all be at least slightly weaker than Old-WB at his best due to WSM, so at the weakest Prime-Ray could be and the strongest these Yonko could be (baring retcon or plot device that somehow enabled them to be stronger than Old-WB) these would be close matches, but at Prime-Ray's highest possible strength he should beat all of them. BB we know nothing about so, who knows there. Prime-Garp is also an unknown, though I think he holds slightly more hype than Ray, so I tend to believe Prime-Ray would have to be at his strongest possible strength level to have a chance to win this, and overall favor Garp.



HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Prime Ray is the strongest on that list
> 
> Prime Ray ~ Prime Zoro
> Prime Garp ~ Prime Smoker
> ...


Considering how Oda powered up Crocodile, I really wouldn't be surprised if when Smoker reappears in the manga he is no longer weaker than Zoro. Don't underestimate the off panel power up. 

With that said I think Coby or Issho have a better chance of being Luffy's Garp.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Considering how Oda powered up Crocodile, I really wouldn't be surprised if when Smoker reappears in the manga he is no longer weaker than Zoro. Don't underestimate the off panel power up.
> 
> With that said I think Coby or Issho have a better chance of being Luffy's Garp.



I'll admit that there is a chance that Smoker does some time in the hyperbolic chamber and comes back strong enough to give Zoro a moderate challenge.

However at this point in the manga he's a complete pushover. We all know Zoro's growth pace is insane as well, so there's never going to be a chance for Smokey to close the gap.

Coby makes sense from a symbolic perspective


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 7, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> yeah maybe I made the wrong comparison...Coby is probably a better example (epilogue after Luffy dies)



I'd peg Smoker as Punk Hazard Zoro level by EOS imo


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> I'll admit that there is a chance that Smoker does some time in the hyperbolic chamber and comes back strong enough to give Zoro a moderate challenge.
> 
> However at this point in the manga he's a complete pushover. We all know Zoro's growth pace is insane as well, so there's never going to be a chance for Smokey to close the gap.
> 
> Coby makes sense from a symbolic perspective



Here's the thing. Luffy and Zoro's growth rate should have been higher than Crocodile's, especially with him stuck in prison, but at Marine-Ford Crocodile seemed more impressive than Luffy. So I really don't think Zoro's growth-rate matters to Oda outside of how much Zoro himself should grow.

I also don't think the gap between Zoro and Smoker is quite that big. Zoro is stronger for sure, but the people smoker lost two aren't really push overs. Law >= Zoro. Vergo, I feel he would have put up a better fight against if not for going for Law's heart. With that said I think Pica > Vergo, and I think Zoro High (Mid) diff'd Pica, so I expect Zoro would High (Mid) to Mid (High) diff Smoker, depending on how much Smoker grew since PH, so there certainly is a gap, but it's not enormous imo.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 7, 2015)

Smoker grew stronger from what getting his ass kicked and sleeping in the bed recovering from said ass kicking.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Here's the thing. Luffy and Zoro's growth rate should have been higher than Crocodile's, especially with him stuck in prison, but at Marine-Ford Crocodile seemed more impressive than Luffy..



That was explained as Croc "rekindling his ambition and rediscovering the power he once had when he was a silver medalist in the NW"

In other words, Croc was always "supposed" to be that strong, but he let himself get weak in alabasta

Smoker doesn't have that.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Smoker grew stronger from what getting his ass kicked and sleeping in the bed recovering from said ass kicking.


So the Straw-Hats are the only ones that grow from island to island?



HisMajestyMihawk said:


> That was explained as Croc "rekindling his ambition and rediscovering the power he once had when he was a silver medalist in the NW"
> 
> In other words, Croc was always "supposed" to be that strong, but he let himself get weak in alabasta
> 
> Smoker doesn't have that.


I agree that's the explanation Oda provided. However it's pretty ridiculous that simply rekindling ambition would allow him to go from loosing to Alabast-Luffy to being notably much more impressive than Marine-Ford-Luffy. If Oda is willing to give such a loose explanation, I don't think him giving an equally contrived explanation for Smoker going from being High (Mid) to Mid (High) diff'd from Zoro, to being able to compete with him somewhere down the road is necessarily unlikely.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So the Straw-Hats are the only ones that grow from island to island?
> 
> 
> I agree that's the explanation Oda provided. However it's pretty ridiculous that simply rekindling ambition would allow him to go from loosing to Alabast-Luffy to being notably much more impressive than Marine-Ford-Luffy. If Oda is willing to give such a loose explanation, I don't think him giving an equally contrived explanation for Smoker going from being High (Mid) to Mid (High) diff'd from Zoro, to being able to compete with him somewhere down the road is necessarily unlikely.



Fair enough but I don't see it. Oda locked himself in with Smoker when it was revealed that he is from East Blue and basically followed Luffy into the grand line.

With Croc it was possible to retcon. With Smoker it's gonna be hard to pull off without making it look like an asspull


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## TheWiggian (Mar 7, 2015)

Gohara said:


> 1. *Garp* wins with around *high* difficulty at most.  That version of Garp is close to Roger's/Prime Whitebeard's level.
> 
> 2. *Whitebeard* wins with around *high* difficulty at most.  Whitebeard is around as powerful as Roger, and I don't think his power has reduced enough in his old age to become weaker than Roger's First Mate.
> 
> ...




Ok. So Prime Rayleigh beats a C3 admiral with mid diff and Shanks beats (while officially being weaker than WSM old WB, as stated by the narrator himself) Prime Rayleigh with mid diff?

So again: Old WB (Worlds Strongest Man stated by Oda) needs high difficulty for Prime Rayleigh and Shanks (stated by Oda is weaker as Old WB) only needs mid diff for Prime Rayleigh? 

Oh and Prime Garp who was on par (or just marginally weaker) with Roger and Primebeard needs the same difficulty as Old WB while Shanks (being weaker than both) just needs mid diff for Prime Rayleigh? 

Oh and back to Prime Rayleigh mid diffing C3 admirals. And Shanks mid diffing Prime Rayleigh, with which difficulty does Shanks beat a C3 admiral? Low? Does he fodderize admirals like Sabo fodderized Bastille? Does he achieve something like this what not even a stronger person as him (WSM Old WB) couldn't do???

I just don't get it.


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## Nox (Mar 8, 2015)

Prime Rayleigh vs *Prime Garp* = (Very High) High Diff
*Prime Rayleigh* vs Old WB = (Very-High) High  Diff
*Prime Rayleigh* vs Dragon = (High) High Diff
*Prime Rayleigh* vs Shanks = High (High) Diff
*Prime Rayleigh* vs Akainu = (Low-High) High Diff
*Prime Rayleigh* vs Aokiji = (Mid) High Diff
*Prime Rayleigh* vs Kaido = (Mid) High Diff
*Prime Rayleigh* vs Fujitora = (Low-Mid) High Diff
*Prime Rayleigh* vs Yonkou BB = (High-Low) High Diff
*Prime Rayleigh* vs Big Mom = (Mid-Low) High Diff


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Fair enough but I don't see it. Oda locked himself in with Smoker when it was revealed that he is from East Blue and basically followed Luffy into the grand line.
> 
> With Croc it was possible to retcon. With Smoker it's gonna be hard to pull off without making it look like an asspull


Fair enough, we'll just have to wait and see.


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## Ruse (Mar 8, 2015)

Loses to Garp, beats the rest of them.


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## Gohara (Mar 8, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> So Prime Rayleigh beats a C3 admiral with mid diff



Maybe mid to high.  Mid to high against pre time skip Akainu I would say (maybe closer to high than mid), and anywhere from around mid to mid to high (closer to mid than high) against the other Admirals.



TheWiggian said:


> Shanks beats (while officially being weaker than WSM old WB, as stated by the narrator himself) Prime Rayleigh with mid diff?



As I said, I believe Shanks is more powerful than Old Whitebeard.  Whitebeard's title isn't confirmed as a title not just given to him during his prime and not taken away due to various possibilities such as lack of verifiable change in status, not including his reduced power out of respect, etc..  "Officially", true, but due to Shanks' status and precedence in Manga/Anime I think Shanks will be revealed (whether directly or indirectly) to be around as powerful as or more powerful than Old Whitebeard.  I can understand why you rank Shanks lower than Old Whitebeard.  It's just my personal opinion.  Yes, though, if Shanks is as powerful as I estimate he is then I think he defeats Rayleigh with around mid difficulty.  Maybe mid to high difficulty.



TheWiggian said:


> Oh and Prime Garp who was on par (or just marginally weaker) with Roger and Primebeard needs the same difficulty as Old WB while Shanks just needs mid diff for Prime Rayleigh?



I don't think Prime Garp is on par with Roger and Prime Whitebeard.  I think he's close to their level, but I think they defeat him with around high difficulty.  So yes.



TheWiggian said:


> Oh and back to Prime Rayleigh mid diffing C3 admirals. And Shanks mid diffing Prime Rayleigh, with which difficulty does Shanks beat a C3 admiral? Low?



Between low difficulty and mid difficulty against pre time skip Akainu and around low difficulty at most against other Admirals, IMO.



TheWiggian said:


> Does he fodderize admirals like Sabo fodderized Bastille?



Nope.  I would say Sabo defeats Bastille with no difficulty.



TheWiggian said:


> Does he achieve something like this what not even a stronger person as him (WSM Old WB) couldn't do???



As I said, I would say Shanks is more powerful than Old Whitebeard.  Also, while I don't think Old Whitebeard defeats an Admiral with as little difficulty as Shanks does, I think he defeats pre time skip Akainu with around mid difficulty at most and the other Admirals with between low difficulty and mid difficulty.  Old Whitebeard bests pre time skip Akainu with around high difficulty at most despite having many disadvantages.


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## Ghost (Mar 8, 2015)

How the fuck is Gohara not section banned yet?


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## Canute87 (Mar 8, 2015)

Because he isn't breaking any rules.


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## Captain Altintop (Mar 8, 2015)

Prime Garp wins extreme diff. 
Old WB loses extreme diff.
Current BB loses high diff
Aokiji loses high diff.
Kaido loses very high diff.
Akainu loses very high diff (Assuming it's FA Akainu)
Big Mom loses high diff.
Kizaru loses high diff.
Shanksloses very high diff.

Only Garp can barely pull of a 51:49 win.


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## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 9, 2015)

_Garp beats him high dif or a bit above.
Shanks beats him with unknown dif.
Could go either way with WB.

He beats everyone else with high dif._


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