# Kidd vs Zoro: Who was stronger at the end of the Wano Arc?



## Chip Skylark (Jan 3, 2023)

Seems we're due for a new updated poll.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 3, 2023)

Kidd, but Zoro will catch up.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

Eustass Kidd

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

The one who unlocked the haki power-up which was hyped to transcend all fruit powers.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> The one who unlocked the haki power-up which was hyped to transcend all fruit powers.


Proven incorrect


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Proven incorrect



As long as it's not by Oda i couldn't care less


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> As long as it's not by Oda i couldn't care less


Of course you'd ignore canon materiel with context.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Of course you'd ignore *my headcanon* materiel with context.



Absolutely, no reason to trust your headcanon.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Absolutely, no reason to trust your headcanon.


Where does haki alone nullify the entire usage of a devil fruit and not just one certain ability other than the sick sick fruit.


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## Fanta09 (Jan 3, 2023)

The war has gotten so intense it’s bananas.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Where does haki alone nullify the entire usage of a devil fruit and not just one certain ability other than the sick sick fruit.



No idea what you're babbling, i only know that Roger overcame every other pirate with nothing but willpower which Kaido once again confirmed not long ago. Just like zoro he had nothing else to rely on other than his determination and haki.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 3, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Where does haki alone nullify the entire usage of a devil fruit and not just one certain ability other than the sick sick fruit.


He didn't say Haki could nullify a fruit, but that it could overcome it.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> He didn't say Haki could nullify a fruit, but that it could overcome it.


Okay.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> No idea what you're babbling, i only know that Roger overcame every other pirate with nothing but willpower which Kaido once again confirmed not long ago. Just like zoro he had nothing else to rely on other than his determination and haki.


Still couldn't surpass Whitebeard or Xebec


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## Eustathios (Jan 3, 2023)

The one with the power of the very strongest.

Reactions: Winner 6


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Still couldn't surpass Whitebeard or Xebec



Primebeard could only stalemate a deathbed Roger after 3 days  

And why would he need to surpass Rocks if his rival Garp destroyed the guy?



Even worse if you stupidly believe Garp is weaker than Roger

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Jan 3, 2023)

not sure why there is a thread for something we already know. There’s been many threads and Zoro stopped winning these battles as soon as we got off the rooftop and Kidd actually started doing something.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Primebeard could only stalemate a deathbed Roger after 3 days
> 
> And why would he need to surpass Rocks if his rival Garp destroyed the guy?
> 
> ...


Garp is weaker than Roger.


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## Beast (Jan 3, 2023)

Didnt Oda name Kidd Wisdom King and Zoro name himself king of hell?



That there is the difference

Reactions: Funny 3


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Garp is weaker than Roger.



How can current Garp who is alive be weaker than a corpse?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Eustathios (Jan 3, 2023)

Kid was left speechless when injured Zoro stopped Hakai.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Beast (Jan 3, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Kid was left speechless when injured Zoro stopped Hakai.


Looool hakai is what injured Zoro 

These guys and their fanfic. Amazing stuff.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> How can current Garp who is alive be weaker than a corpse?


Okay, you beat me

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ludi (Jan 3, 2023)

Kid would win by current feats and portrayal, via being probably still comparable to current Law, who seems a lot stronger than before. By end of Wano Zoro had the better feats in a vacuum though. So it's a tough one to call, definitely not undeniable either way imo


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## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 3, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> The one with the power of the very strongest.


It's a mistranslation

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Beast (Jan 3, 2023)

Ludi said:


> Kid would win by current feats and portrayal, via being probably still comparable to Law. By end of Wano Zoro had the better feats in a vacuum though. So it's a tough one to call, definitely not undeniable either way imo


And what feats did Zoro have above Kidd?
Slowing down Hakai for a split second before being almost collapsed on the floor?

Or do you mean scaring Kaidou without even able push him back?

neither suggests better feats then Kidd, Luffy with more then enough panel time and feats did not scar Kaidou… Luffy did not jump infront of Hakai And slow it down for a split second, does that mean Zoro got better feats then Luffy too?

Zoro being close to wisdom kings is fanboy behaviour.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Primebeard could only stalemate a deathbed Roger after 3 days
> 
> And why would he need to surpass Rocks if his rival Garp destroyed the guy?
> 
> ...


You're trolling.
Roger was never weakened and only had pain which crocus was able to lessen.
Garp and Roger+pirates fought the entire rocks crew and nearly lost.

Garp is weaker than alive Roger.


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## Beast (Jan 3, 2023)

How quickly Ztards loving moving goal post and bring up different characters to change the topic altogether


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

Beast said:


> How quickly Ztards loving moving goal post and bring up different characters to change the topic altogether



 He's just so good at baiting people.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 3, 2023)

Ludi said:


> Kid would win by current feats and portrayal, via being probably still comparable to current Law, who seems a lot stronger than before. *By end of Wano Zoro had the better feats in a vacuum though*. So it's a tough one to call, definitely not undeniable either way imo


What do you mean?


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## Ludi (Jan 3, 2023)

Beast said:


> And what feats did Zoro have above Kidd?
> Slowing down Hakai for a split second before being almost collapsed on the floor?
> 
> Or do you mean scaring Kaidou without even able push him back?
> ...



Zoro getting these feats before his latest PU at least makes the topic debatable yea, especially as with his latest PU he comfortably defeated a character he otherwise thought to be impossible to beat for him 

Of course that doesn't make Zoro comparable to Luffy. After Luffy final PU he actually beat Kaido 1v1. 

Neither wano Kid nor Wano Zoro is close to end of Wano Luffy


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Kid was left speechless when injured Zoro stopped Hakai.



Rightfully so. Despite having awakening at that time he was powerless to do anything against that attack. Kid knows his limit and was glad Zoro saved him because otherwise they would've been doomed. He thanked zoro for it, which is a very honest admission of inferiority especially when you consider Kid was never really shown to respect someone. And this was a zoro prior to his AdvCoC power-up.



Unresponsive said:


> You're trolling.
> Roger was never weakened and only had pain which crocus was able to lessen.
> Garp and Roger+pirates fought the entire rocks crew and nearly lost.
> 
> Garp is weaker than alive Roger.



Yeah no, you need to do better than that to convince someone. Not even a casual would buy that. Roger was at deaths door, Crocus managed to delay his disease for about 365 days.



Garp on the other hand battled Roger multiple times throughough his career:



_Roger: They'll find and kill her! However, a child who is yet to be born bears no sin, Garp! You and I have nearly killed each other tens of times now... you could say we're buddies, right? If it's you we're talking about, then I can trust you like my own crew! Protect my kid!! Garp: Nonsense! Roger: Nah... I'm sure you will. I leave my kid in your hands!_

And not just once a stalemate against dying Roger, whom he couldn't overpower despite being in his prime. 



Unresponsive said:


> He's just so good at baiting people.



Funny you mention that since you were the one to move the goalpost.



Unresponsive said:


> Where does haki alone nullify the entire usage of a devil fruit and not just one certain ability other than the sick sick fruit.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mihawk (Jan 3, 2023)

I’ll give it to Kidd man.

Zoro awakened Advanced Conqueror’s Haki, but Kidd is the one with at least somewhat of an extended period of a clash against a Yonko in single combat.

I don’t think having aCoC alone is enough to put one above someone who doesn’t or isn’t confirmed to have it yet. Kaido said it was the power among the very strongest, but Zoro has yet to master it to its fullest extent, and it’s not like I necessary place someone like Sky-Split Luffy equal to or even above say, Akainu or Aokiji just because they don’t have it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


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## Beast (Jan 3, 2023)

Ludi said:


> Zoro getting these feats before his latest PU at least makes the topic debatable yea, especially as with his latest PU he comfortably defeated a character he otherwise thought to be impossible to beat for him
> 
> Of course that doesn't make Zoro comparable to Luffy. After Luffy final PU he actually beat Kaido 1v1.
> 
> Neither wano Kid nor Wano Zoro is close to end of Wano Luffy


A character that is miles and miles weaker than who Law and Kidd fought and beat. Are you suggesting that Kidd or Law couldn’t beat King or would have the same troubles as Zoro?
 Zoro literally went extreme diff against him. Zoro had unlocked AdCoC against Kaidou not king, he just started using the Enma correctly aka fuck the swordsmanship of just cutting what you want and just cut everything.

so, what feats then? Because the only time Zoro up staged Kidd was on the roof, where he was going all out and kidd wasn’t as we came to find out.

you clearly didn’t get what I said at all. not surprising considering you still haven’t said what feats, when directly asked.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

Mihawk said:


> I’ll give it to Kidd man.
> 
> Zoro awakened Advanced Conqueror’s Haki, but Kidd is the one with at least somewhat of an extended period of a clash against a Yonko in single combat.
> 
> I don’t think having aCoC alone is enough to put one above someone who doesn’t or isn’t confirmed to have it yet. Kaido said it was the power among the very strongest, but Zoro has yet to master it to its fullest extent, and it’s not like I necessary place someone like Sky-Split Luffy equal to or even above say, Akainu or Aokiji just because they don’t have it.



Well considering that i might place Kinemon above Zoro and Kid then since he was a punching bag for Kaido over a prolonged period of time than both of them combined.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jan 3, 2023)

Kidd is clearly but not significantly stronger than zoro.

Zoro cant fight at his level for long, and kidd has superior stats all around bar AP.

This is not including kidds matchup advantage.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mihawk (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Well considering that i might place Kinemon above Zoro and Kid then since he was a punching bag for Kaido over a prolonged period of time than both of them combined.



A fair argument.

Kinemon is probably more durable than luffy considering Kaido killed his ass but still needed a knife to finish off Kinemon yet still couldn’t kill him

Reactions: Funny 2 | Friendly 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Yeah no, you need to do better than that to convince someone. Not even a casual would buy that. Roger was at deaths door, Crocus managed to delay his disease for about 365 days.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You tried making it seem as if he was somehow weakened from this illness which he wasn't.
Roger was still in his prime even with that illness, there's no evidence that it weakened him.

Roger fought Primebeard, Prime Garp, Prime sengoku, and other old legends in his prime before he had gotten that disease. He was still in his prime as I mentioned before.


Prove I was trying to bait people.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

Mihawk said:


> A fair argument.
> 
> Kinemon is probably more durable than luffy considering Kaido killed his ass but still needed a knife to finish off Kinemon yet still couldn’t kill him


Kinemon has more endurance than fraudger. Once you realized Loger died by fodder from weak spears but Kin is surviving acoc level attacks. You realize that Roger was nothing more than a Buggy v2.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## The crazy hacker (Jan 3, 2023)

Kidd extreme diffs for now. This can change with new feats.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

Mihawk said:


> A fair argument.
> 
> Kinemon is probably more durable than luffy considering Kaido killed his ass but still needed a knife to finish off Kinemon yet still couldn’t kill him



Kinemon is a beast, i always supported that notion. Kaido should be lucky Kinemon didn't awaken during their fight. 



Unresponsive said:


> You tried making it seem as if he was somehow weakened from this illness which he wasn't.
> Roger was still in his prime even with that illness, there's no evidence that it weakened him.
> 
> Roger fought Primebeard, Prime Garp, Prime sengoku, and other old legends in his prime before he had gotten that disease. He was still in his prime as I mentioned before.



I merely state the fact that the best Primebeard did was stalemate a deathbed Roger once, Garp nearly murdered Roger multiple times which is far better than a single stalemate   



Unresponsive said:


> Prove I was trying to bait people.



Why? Is your account not enough as evidence?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> I merely state the fact that the best Primebeard did was stalemate a deathbed Roger once, Garp nearly murdered Roger multiple times which is far better than a single stalemate
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Is your account not enough as evidence?


They're stated to be equals, but Garp isn't.
Deathbeard Roger=Prime Roger
Roger and garp fight to a stalemate...and sometimes a standstill...they will nearly kill each other sometimes when fighting.
Of course it's not because I don't bait people anymore unless I am talking to anti lightspeed agenda bros.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 3, 2023)

Kidd without a shadow of a doubt

Reactions: Like 5


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## Aldren (Jan 3, 2023)

You could maybe make an argument for Kid beating Zoro due to matchup advantage.

But Zoro > Kid overall is pretty obvious.

Reactions: Winner 5 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 6


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 3, 2023)

Aldren said:


> You could maybe make an argument for Kid being stronger then Zoro due to matchup advantage.
> 
> But Zoro > Kid overall is pretty obvious.


Zoro will just prevent Kidd from using his powers on his swords via Haki.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2023)

Midd mid-diffs Zoro

Reactions: Winner 3 | Dislike 1


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## Aldren (Jan 3, 2023)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Zoro will just prevent Kidd from using his powers on his swords via Haki.


That's true, I don't actually see Kid being able to take his swords, unless Zoro is caught off guard. I'm just saying, you can make then argument that Kid beats Zoro due to the DF advantage.

Still won't change the fact that Zoro is overall stronger then Kid.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sanji (Jan 3, 2023)

The one that was drawn fighting and defeating a yonko while the other was barely conscious after his go at a yonko commander

Reactions: Winner 5 | Optimistic 1


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## verified (Jan 3, 2023)

Zoro > Kidd stat wise and Haki wise

only thing Kidd has over him is his fruit that won't even work the way people are suggesting, haki will not allow Kidd to snatch Zoro's blades

only arguments for Kidd winning is his fruit which shouldn't be too troublesome for Zoro to dodge anyway

Big Mom is a very stationary fighter and never even bothered using advanced Conq in their fight, and the law/kidd duo still needed bombs and teamwork to win

Zoro wins insane diff 7/10 times, could still go to Kidd if Zoro slips up


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## Oda Report (Jan 3, 2023)

Beast said:


> Didnt Oda name Kidd Wisdom King and Zoro name himself king of hell?
> 
> 
> 
> That there is the difference



Zoro is a far superior Conquerer so it's only fitting Oda gives Kid and Law "wisdom" king even tho Kid and Luffy lack wisdom.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jan 3, 2023)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Zoro will just prevent Kidd from using his powers on his swords via Haki.


And then zoro passes out due to exhaustion while kidd keeps out of his range

Reactions: Optimistic 3


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 3, 2023)

I say Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 3, 2023)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> And then zoro passes out due to exhaustion while kidd keeps out of his range


Yeah maybe until he can handle Emma properly


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## Eustathios (Jan 3, 2023)

Zoro is a top tier. If Luffy is on Shanks' lvl, Zoro is on Beckman's. He's no mere commander. The fact that he took down someone like King (who had previously defeated the WSM's FM) in just three hits, without even using Nine Swords Style, speaks volumes of his strength.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Van Basten (Jan 3, 2023)

Kid = Law > Zoro

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 3, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> The fact that he took down someone like King (who had previously defeated the WSM's FM)


Embellished big time. King never took down Marco by himself. In fact, Marco was fending off both King & Queen simultaneously for a considerable amount of time.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Eustathios (Jan 3, 2023)

Chip Skylark said:


> Embellished big time. *King never took down Marco by himself. *In fact, Marco was fending off both King & Queen simultaneously for a considerable amount of time.


King fought Marco from 1007 onwards and took him down with minimal injuries.

Reactions: Like 2


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## verified (Jan 3, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro is a top tier. If Luffy is on Shanks' lvl, Zoro is on Beckman's. He's no mere commander. The fact that he took down someone like King (who had previously defeated the WSM's FM) in just three hits, without even using Nine Swords Style, speaks volumes of his strength.


I agree that Zoro is near top tier but he isn't Beckman level yet

and Marco did not lose to King lol


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## Eustathios (Jan 3, 2023)

BroIy said:


> I agree that Zoro is near top tier but he isn't Beckman level yet
> 
> and Marco did not lose to King lol


If Luffy is a Yonkou, so more or less on Shanks' lvl, why can't we assume the same about their FMs? They have a similar dynamic.

Marco was down in 1022 and in chapter 1007 we see that Queen is fighting Chopper, which goes on for 30 mins.

Reactions: Like 1


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## verified (Jan 3, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> If Luffy is a Yonkou, so more or less on Shanks' lvl, why can't we assume the same about their FMs? They have a similar dynamic.
> 
> Marco was down in 1022 and in chapter 1007 we see that Queen is fighting Chopper, which goes on for 30 mins.


just because they're Yonkos doesn't mean their first mates have to be relative

King is to Kaido what Zoro is to Luffy yet Zoro beat King handily

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Eustathios (Jan 3, 2023)

BroIy said:


> just because they're Yonkos doesn't mean their first mates have to be relative
> 
> King is to Kaido what Zoro is to Luffy yet Zoro beat King handily


King and Kaido don't share the same dynamic as Luffy and Zoro. Luffy and Zoro have always been portrayed close to each other.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## Oda Report (Jan 3, 2023)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> And then zoro passes out due to exhaustion while *kidd keeps out of his range*



Kid doesn't fight that way.

The fact that you got Kid fighting in such a way that is vastly out of his chracter. Exposes alot about the group that feels Zoro is vastly weaker then Kid.

Reactions: Winner 5


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## verified (Jan 3, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> King and Kaido don't share the same dynamic as Luffy and Zoro. Luffy and Zoro have always been portrayed close to each other.


close but not remotely on the same level

King has a singular stat advantage over Kaido while Luffy outstats Zoro in essentially everything


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## Ludi (Jan 3, 2023)

Beast said:


> A character that is miles and miles weaker than who Law and Kidd fought and beat. Are you suggesting that Kidd or Law couldn’t beat King or would have the same troubles as Zoro?



Getting a PU within the fight to defeat an enemy you couldn't defeat before, afterwards only with a few hits is rather hard to exactly scale. EoW Zoro is significantly above King but it's hard to point exactly how much and if EoW Kid is significantly above that. I don't think it's undeniable either way. 



Beast said:


> Zoro literally went extreme diff against him. Zoro had unlocked AdCoC against Kaidou not king, he just started using the Enma correctly aka fuck the swordsmanship of just cutting what you want and just cut everything.



The complete fight was extreme diff indeed. But end of wano Zoro would be able to start with the latest PU, so that's rather irrelevant. 



Beast said:


> so, what feats then? Because the only time Zoro up staged Kidd was on the roof, where he was going all out and kidd wasn’t as we came to find out.



Well, I agree with you he did in that instance indeed. This was before Zoro got stronger against King as well. 

All in all, I'm just saying it isn't undeniable either way.


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## Sanji (Jan 3, 2023)

I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention that Zoro's power-up clearly puts him above King but it doesn't change that Kid and Law are blatantly portrayed as stronger given who they are compared to and matched up against.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Soba (Jan 3, 2023)

So absolutely every fandom is saying Kidd while only the Region is saying Zoro

Do I smell bias


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## Oda Report (Jan 3, 2023)

The only "improvement" Zoro gained during wano was getting enma and even that came with throwing Zoro off. 

Zoro vs King there wasn't no power up gained for Zoro what are you guys on? Unless you feel Zoro *not* holding back his haki is a power up in itself then wow that's some extreme nitpicking to even have an argument.


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## fenaker (Jan 3, 2023)

still waiting for Kid tards to post panels of how Kid would hurt King when he couldn't even penetrate meme's skin .

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 3


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## Bash24 (Jan 3, 2023)

Soba said:


> So absolutely every fandom is saying Kidd while only the Region is saying Zoro
> 
> Do I smell bias




It's always been the forces of evil vs the forces of good. Zoro fans are the good guys


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jan 3, 2023)

It's funny watching people preemptively meme the whole "luffy rivals>Zoro" in every of these threads and then proceed to be unable to make a reasonable argument for it. 

The fear for Zoro is at an all time high.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## verified (Jan 3, 2023)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> It's funny watching people preemptively meme the whole "luffy rivals>Zoro" in every of these threads and then proceed to be unable to make a reasonable argument for it.
> 
> The fear for Zoro is at an all time high.


But wait, can't Kidd take his swords???

(never heard of haki before)

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jan 3, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Kid doesn't fight that way.
> 
> The fact that you got Kid fighting in such a way that is vastly out of his chracter. Exposes alot about the group that feels Zoro is vastly weaker then Kid.


Weve seen kidd fight once. And hes always floating on his steel golem.

You dont know much about sample size do you?


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## Incognitos (Jan 3, 2023)

BroIy said:


> But wait, can't Kidd take his swords???
> 
> (never heard of haki before)


Kids magnetic ability worked on taking away big moms sword who has vastly superior haki to zoro.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Incognitos (Jan 3, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Kid doesn't fight that way.
> 
> The fact that you got Kid fighting in such a way that is vastly out of his chracter. Exposes alot about the group that feels Zoro is vastly weaker then Kid.


Kid is a mid range fighter. Always has been.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 3, 2023)

BroIy said:


> But wait, can't Kidd take his swords???
> 
> (never heard of haki before)



Kid needs Awakening to affect the weapon of someone noteworthy which he can't spam else he would've done it to Big Mom more often and never even attempted to against Kaido. At least he can disarm fodder without it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## verified (Jan 3, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Kids magnetic ability worked on taking away big moms sword who has vastly superior haki to zoro.


Was Big Mom even holding Napoleon at the time


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## Incognitos (Jan 3, 2023)

BroIy said:


> Was Big Mom even holding Napoleon at the time


Yes


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## Oda Report (Jan 3, 2023)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> Weve seen kidd fight once. And hes always floating on his steel golem.
> 
> You dont know much about sample size do you?



Most of Kid's style is still up close and personal not really a long range fighter as much as you'd like em to be.

You talking about that steel golem that got low diffed wrecked by a dragons twister? How is floating in that going to be enough to keep out of Zoros range? 



Incognitos said:


> Kid is a mid range fighter. Always has been.



I knew you couldn't stay away from me.



Mid range is still dangerous for Kid vs someone like Zoro.


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## Incognitos (Jan 3, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Most of Kid's style is still up close and personal not really a long range fighter as much as you'd like em to be.
> 
> You talking about that steel golem that got low diffed wrecked by a dragons twister? How is floating in that going to be enough to keep out of Zoros range?
> 
> ...


Kid dealt with big mom at mid range. He can deal with zoro.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Oda Report (Jan 3, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Kid dealt with big mom at mid range. He can deal with zoro.



You mean getting smacked around sure will.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 3, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> You mean getting smacked around sure will.


He outmaneuvered her on multiple occasions and overpowered her on multiple occasions as well with survived her most powerful attacks which are well above zoros.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Aldren (Jan 3, 2023)

Kid and Law were getting destroyed against BM.

Even when they broke her arm, it was after BM was turned her back to them. It's the only reason Law managed to hit her with his awakening, and Kid followed up on that.

It's wild that so many people actually believe Kid+Law >= BM

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 3, 2023)

Aldren said:


> Kid and Law were getting destroyed against BM.
> 
> Even when they broke her arm, it was after BM was turned her back to them. It's the only reason Law managed to hit her with his awakening, and Kid followed up on that.
> 
> It's wild that so many people actually believe Kid+Law >= BM


Granted, Kidd and Law were handicapped a bit more going into that fight thanks to Hawkins and the damage they accumulated against Kaido.

Also think people are factoring in their Post-Wano gains. Prior to the Big Mom fight their awakening was a last resort, but Current Law was comfortable enough with his awakening to open up with it against Teach.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Incognitos (Jan 3, 2023)

Chip Skylark said:


> Granted, Kidd and Law were handicapped a bit more going into that fight thanks to Hawkins and the damage they accumulated against Kaido.
> 
> Also think people are factoring in their Post-Wano gains. Prior to the Big Mom fight their awakening was a last resort, but Current Law was comfortable enough with his awakening to open up with it against Teach.


People sure factor in zoro being post king fight. But not kid and law. Its because the only way it's a debate is if it's pre bm fight kid vs post king fight zoro

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Oda Report (Jan 3, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> He outmaneuvered her on multiple occasions and overpowered her on multiple occasions as well with survived her most powerful attacks which are well above zoros.



Big Moms not really a speedy chracters to begin with espically in a 2v1. Also nope dragon blaze had Big Mom a shook one while that's not even Zoros most powerful attack.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Aldren (Jan 3, 2023)

Chip Skylark said:


> Granted, Kidd and Law were handicapped a bit more going into that fight thanks to Hawkins and the damage they accumulated against Kaido.
> 
> Also think people are factoring in their Post-Wano gains. Prior to the Big Mom fight their awakening was a last resort, but Current Law was comfortable enough with his awakening to open up with it against Teach.


The problem is quite a lot of Midtards believe Wano Kid+Law >= BM.

They put Kid > Zoro on the basis that Kid is around 50% of BM. Duo were getting destroyed for most of the fight. Most of the big hits they landed on her were when she was distracted. Kids attack was not even doing much damage to her. 

And unlike Zoro vs King, they didn't get some power up mid fight, that allowed them to defeat BM.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 3, 2023)

Zoro started fight with Bozo King with magic heal yet still needed extreme diff .
Kidd & Law did not had any break or heal mid fight . On top of that howkins shit fked Kidd up too .

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Oda Report (Jan 3, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Zoro started fight with Bozo King with magic heal yet still needed extreme diff .


You talking about the fight where Zoro had to overcome himself to dust king?



o0Shinthi0o said:


> Kidd & Law did not had any break or heal mid fight . On top of that howkins shit fked Kidd up too .



Well Zoro did carry those wisdom kings around more then once on the Rooftop. No surprise they weren't as damaged as Zoro.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Fel1x (Jan 3, 2023)

Kidd puts Zoro in a metal coffin 10 times of 10
DFless Kidd with a metal arm vs Zoro is a closer match-up

Reactions: Winner 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Oda Report (Jan 3, 2023)

Fel1x said:


> Kidd puts Zoro in a metal coffin 10 times of 10
> DFless Kidd with a metal arm vs Zoro is a closer match-up




Man then Kid should have performed better on the Rooftop.

That Must of been a powerful fanfic you read before posting.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Kids magnetic ability worked on taking away big moms sword who has vastly superior haki to zoro.


headcanon , he didn't take her sword from her hands , Law's SW hurt Big Mom internally that she let her sword out from her hands


And While BM was focusing on Law after that sneak attack , Kid came sneaking and used assign 

BM couldn't react in time and she couldn't understand shit since her brain was all about Law at that time and got hit by punk crash 


Kid tards trynna spreading misinformations, that's the advantage of having 2 vs 1 .

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

If Kidd can do that to BM head on and make BM lose grip of her sword then Kidd can do the same to Zoro too .

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

Gigachad


Bash24 said:


> It's always been the forces of evil vs the forces of good. Zoro fans are the good guys


The Nazzis thought they were the good guys as well   

Anyway Widd stomps Loro. Maybe Zoro should learn how to win his fights with pure grit and determination and not just pure nonsensical asspulls before he faces Widd


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## MrPopo (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> The one with the power of the very strongest.


Katakuri bros we're the strongest

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> headcanon , he didn't take her sword from her hands , Law's SW hurt Big Mom internally that she let her sword out from her hands
> 
> 
> And While BM was focusing on Law after that sneak attack , Kid came sneaking and used assign
> ...


I'm pretty sure the misinformation started when someone said kid couldn't affect zoros swords. 

I was wrong on this point, that big mom wasn't holding Napoleon. 

However like someone above posted it doesn't quite matter. Kid is able to disarm big mom on his own as he showed and disarming big mom is a lot easier than disarming zoro considering he lost his swords to King on multiple occasions. I can go search on GPs post if you're that insistent on it. 

This isn't some gotcha moment for you because its one battle and you've lost the war.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

MrPopo said:


> Katakuri bros we're the strongest


When he unlocks AdCoC sure


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)



Reactions: Winner 2


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

74 to 26     

Rationality finally won

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fel1x (Jan 4, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Man then Kid should have performed better on the Rooftop.
> 
> That Must of been a powerful fanfic you read before posting.


cringe

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> I'm pretty sure the misinformation started when someone said kid couldn't affect zoros swords.


I don't give a shit about that tbh , but since yesterday i saw ppl here saying this shit which in itself a headcanon that is a game changer here when you talk about Zoro vs Kidd .


Incognitos said:


> I was wrong on this point, that big mom wasn't holding Napoleon.


Nice we agreed now .


Incognitos said:


> However like someone above posted it doesn't quite matter. Kid is able to disarm big mom on his own as he showed and disarming big mom is a lot easier than disarming zoro considering he lost his swords to King on multiple occasions. I can go search on GPs post if you're that insistent on it.


Kidd didn't disarm anyone relevant so far , he didn't disarm Kaido's club , he didn't disarm Big Mom's Napoleon instead Killer did but needed to engage in 2 vs 1 .
What's funny is Law himself was in the range of Punk Crash :





Assign attracted any metals around it uncontrollably To Big Mom, and while Law with his sword in the range but he still had it and didn't get his sword attracted at all with his firm grip after he just attacked with it .

And this is Law after punk crash grabbing his sword :



Law's fodder ass ain't even known for his raw strength , funny isn't it ?

Reactions: Winner 6


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> If Kidd can do that to BM head on and make BM lose grip of her sword then Kidd can do the same to Zoro too .





fenaker said:


> I don't give a shit about that tbh , but since yesterday i saw ppl here saying this shit which in itself a headcanon that is a game changer here when you talk about Zoro vs Kidd .
> 
> Nice we agreed now .
> 
> ...


He very clearly made big mom lose her sword in the above sequence you seem to have ignored for some reason.


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

i do not believe Kaido is a fraud anymore.

thus, I choose to believe his words that only a handful of the very strongest can use advCoC


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> i do not believe Kaido is a fraud anymore.
> 
> thus, I choose to believe his words that only a handful of the very strongest can use advCoC


So some of the very strongest don't use it?


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> So some of the very strongest don't use it?


Idunno but I do know Kaido confirmed Zoro as a handful of the very strongest in the world.


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## Empathy (Jan 4, 2023)

Zoro is stronger, because he gained superior Haki and that’s the most important stat. For the record, I voted for Kid in Beast’s thread, expecting Kid to be stronger at the end of Wano, but I was wrong.

Reactions: Winner 6 | GODA 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> Idunno but I do know Kaido confirmed Zoro as a handful of the very strongest in the world.


Yeah he's probably in the top .000001% but so is everyone in the top 100 or so people. Kid's in that realm too


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Yeah he's probably in the top .000001% but so is everyone in the top 100 or so people. Kid's in that realm too


Nope.

until Kid shows advCoC, he doesn’t get that rank applied to him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Ludi said:


> Getting a PU within the fight to defeat an enemy you couldn't defeat before, afterwards only with a few hits is rather hard to exactly scale. EoW Zoro is significantly above King but it's hard to point exactly how much and if EoW Kid is significantly above that. I don't think it's undeniable either way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The amount of hits it takes to finish a fight that already been going for quite some time after better mastery of AdCoC and a power up in KoH swordsmanship. King was still able to keep up with him, dodge and counter and his best attack was beaten by Zoros best attack when he could have just easily let Zoro wear himself out completely and he was given after that attack he collapsed and saw the grim reaper. And again, King doesn’t match up BM in any shape or form even with that fake durability wank.

and bar currently Luffy, when did characters ever use their strongest attacks and modes which kills their stamina… straight out of the gate? It seems to me, you want to give double credit to Zoro for winning his fight, you do understand that King was caught with CIS, to go CQC when he is a better long range fighter then Zoro, given his laser like shit, fire attacks and ability to freely fly and Zoro was literally almost out of juice to carry on fighting. Same thing with Queen being distracted instead of you know… taking the best position as to not get combo’d up by Sanji but the good guys gotta win and Oda was running out of time, hence everything was rushed to finish the fights including BM Vs Kidd and law.


Zoro did get stronger during his fight with King to overcome him as you clearly said he started off weaker and of course he gets another boost after winning the fight as well call it exp whatever but the same can be said for Kidd and law, both were talking about how limited the awakening is and how they couldn’t use it much but after being forced into a situation that didn’t let allow them to stay down, of course they got some boost during the fight and after beating a freaking yonko, hurting anyone shouldn’t be a problem for them no matter who they fight be it prime Roger.

I was wondering about your mention of Zoro having better feats… because getting flung around by king first and then finally beating extreme diff is not a feat that matches up to beating BM.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> Nope.
> 
> until Kid shows advCoC, he doesn’t get that rank applied to him.


is Katakuri among them too ? cause Ray said the same about FS users

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 2


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## MrPopo (Jan 4, 2023)

Empathy said:


> Zoro is stronger, because he gainer superior Haki and that’s the most important stat. For the record, I voted for Kid in Beast’s thread, expecting Kid to be stronger at the end of Wano, but I was wrong.


Do you have  Zoro stronger than the admirals?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bash24 (Jan 4, 2023)

Mid's awakening is not on par with his rival's Luffy and Law.

He doesn't have any advanced form of haki (infusion, internal destruction, future sight)

It's ridiculous to even assume Mid can disarm Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

People still looking for excuses as if Kidd didn’t disarm BM 1v1.
AdCoC really helped Zoro put Kaidou on his back…. Ooh wait.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

it really baffles me that , even after seeing Kidd in 1v1 situation disarmed BM ,a fkin Yonkou , yet still Z legion hold on to their head canon of "Kidd cant disarm Zoro "

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

So Kidd disarms BM and overpowers her in a head to head confrontation yet he can't do the absolute same thing to Loro   

Has the @Dunno - 19 virus spread so much that even the cool regionaires think Loro> BM


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> it really baffles me that , even after seeing Kidd in 1v1 situation disarmed BM ,a fkin Yonkou , yet still Z legion hold on to their head canon of "Kidd cant disarm Zoro "


Zoro is a pure swordsman with top tier haki. Magnetic shenanigans won't work here, especially with Zoro's half-sentient swords.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> it really baffles me that , even after seeing Kidd in 1v1 situation disarmed BM ,a fkin Yonkou , yet still Z legion hold on to their head canon of "Kidd cant disarm Zoro "


Bruh, @fenaker literally ignored your post and tried to argue Kidds original awakening scene

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro is a pure swordsman with top tier haki. Magnetic shenanigans won't work here, especially with Zoro's half-sentient swords.


Half sentient? Loooool you do know BMs sword is fully sentient and she’s a top tier haki user?  

Literally BMs dura comes from her constant haki and this silly person wants to claim it’s different… why cause Zoro has green hair?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro is a pure swordsman with top tier haki. Magnetic shenanigans won't work here, especially with Zoro's half-sentient swords.




So they won't work here but they somehow worked against top tier and emperor of the sea for decades BM with her fully sentient sword

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro is a pure swordsman with top tier haki. Magnetic shenanigans won't work here, especially with Zoro's half-sentient swords.


why cause Pure swordsmans body is 100% resistive of magnet ? or Mr. needextremediffforbozo haki ( who btw disarmed Zoro , a manga fact ) is way above a fkin Yonkou BM ?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Oooh Zoros a swordsmans that’s why magnetism doesn’t work on him


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro is a pure swordsman with top tier haki. Magnetic shenanigans won't work here, especially with Zoro's half-sentient swords.


Big Mom was a sword user with better haki and a fully sentient sword. Kidd’s magnetism still worked.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Both king and Kaidou were disarmed by fucking scabbards and Kaidou got FS


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Half sentient? Loooool you do know BMs sword is fully sentient and she’s a top tier haki user?
> 
> Literally BMs dura comes from her constant haki and this silly person wants to claim it’s different… why cause Zoro has green hair?





Soba said:


> So they won't work here but they somehow worked against top tier and emperor of the sea for decades BM with her fully sentient sword





o0Shinthi0o said:


> why cause Pure swordsmans body is 100% resistive of magnet ? or Mr. needextremediffforbozohaki ( who btw disarmed Zoro , a manga fact ) is way above a fkin Yonkou BM ?


Zoro has better CoC feats. He could break through Lunarian durability. BM's main strength is her fruit and brute strength. She used CoC only once on panel.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

if only Sanji was a swordsman so he wouldn't have to deal with that vegapunk magnetism bullcrap

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro has better CoC feats. He could break through Lunarian durability. BM's main strength is her fruit and brute strength. She used CoC only once on panel.


So, Zoros haki is even above BM now ?


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro has better CoC feats. He could break through Lunarian durability. BM's main strength is her fruit and brute strength. She used CoC only once on panel.


Zoro got better AdCoC than BM?  

Zoro can split the sky with Kaidou guys… run for your lives!!!!


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> So, Zoros haki is even above BM now ?


With Nine Swords Style, for sure.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Zoro got better AdCoC than BM?
> 
> Zoro can split the sky with Kaidou guys… run for your lives!!!!


 Zoros advCoC is better than Kaido too cause BM with weaker than Zoros haki clashed equally with Kaido .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro has better CoC feats. He could break through Lunarian durability. BM's main strength is her fruit and brute strength. She used CoC only once on panel.




BM split the skies with Kaido. Not to mention even mere remnants and leaks from her CoC were knocking out fooders left and right from a mile away

But Zoro somehow has better CoC


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Zoros advCoC is better than Kaido too cause BM with weaker than Zoros haki clashed equally with Kaido .


Oh my god that actually makes sense if that's the case 

It's over kidbros we lost

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

Soba said:


> BM split the skies with Kaido. *Not to mention even mere remnants and leaks from her CoC were knocking out fooders left and right from a mile away*
> 
> But Zoro somehow has better CoC


Same thing happened when Zoro unlocked CoC.


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> With Nine Swords Style, for sure.


Ooh shit, imagine 18 sword style zoro


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

Soba said:


> BM split the skies with Kaido. Not to mention even mere remnants and leaks from her CoC were knocking out fooders left and right from a mile away
> 
> But Zoro somehow has better CoC


the fodders that got KOed by Zoros CoC got up after few sec to have a meaningful conversation with King


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Zoros advCoC is better than Kaido too cause BM with weaker than Zoros haki clashed equally with Kaido .


BM is still somewhat stronger overall. As I said, her main weapons are her fruit powers and brute strength. 

G5 Luffy ~ Bigger Meme >~ 9 Sword Style Zoro > regular CoC Zoro


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> BM is still somewhat stronger overall. As I said, her main weapons are her fruit powers and brute strength.


You should have said Zoro is only somewhat weaker than BM.
Kidd had no chance, he barely 2v1 her


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Same thing happened when Zoro unlocked CoC.





Eustathios said:


> BM is still somewhat stronger overall. As I said, her main weapons are her fruit powers and brute strength.


They were right next to him and he was using the full power of his CoC. BM's leaks were literally doing the same thing only a ton more impressive

Dude you cannot seriously be arguing Zoro's Haki> Sky splitter BM


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> BM is still somewhat stronger overall. As I said, her main weapons are her fruit powers and brute strength.
> 
> G5 Luffy ~ Bigger Meme >~ 9 Sword Style Zoro > regular CoC Zoro


nah man 9 sword CoC Zoro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 Sword CoC Zoro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G5 Luffy = BM= Kaido

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Can’t lie, @Eustathios vote for Zoro goes to Kidd by default, such stupidity should be punished and mocking him is not enough.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jan 4, 2023)

Zoro has an entire fight  with infusion haki, Big mom is dead and used it sparingly and not at all in her last fight.
But her haki is better because of yonkou status. LMAO.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Oda Report (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> So, Zoros haki is even above BM now ?



Big Mom was the one who was sure afraid of Zoro haki based attack in dragon blaze. 



o0Shinthi0o said:


> Zoros advCoC is better than Kaido too cause BM with weaker than Zoros haki clashed equally with Kaido .



Splitting the sky doesn't mean much in that instant since kaidou wasn't using coating like he did vs Luffy.

and Zoro out right was able to create an opening to permanently scar kaidou while being in a weakened state thanks to both of the Yonkous combination attack.



Soba said:


> Dude you cannot seriously be arguing Zoro's Haki> Sky splitter BM



That doesn't even make sense since for one to split the sky on that level two Powerful CoC user attack each other. Kaidou was holding back obviously when it came to that haki clash.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Kaidou was holding back obviously when it came to that haki clash.


Ooh shit Kaidou was holding back against BM?
Tell us more of this Zoro piece


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## Oda Report (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Ooh shit Kaidou was holding back against BM?
> Tell us more of this Zoro piece



Reading is tough for you.

Just look at the pretty pictures and see that kaidous clash with Luffy > Big Moms haki clash vs Kaidou.


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Reading is tough for you.
> 
> Just look at the pretty pictures and see that kaidous clash with Luffy > Big Moms haki clash vs Kaidou.


Yes. After all one did split the sky while the other... Split the sky?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

@Eustathios just out of curiosity,  do u think Earth is flat by any chance ?

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Reading is tough for you.
> 
> Just look at the pretty pictures and see that kaidous clash with Luffy > Big Moms haki clash vs Kaidou.


How much was Kaidou holding back?


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> @Eustathios just out of curiosity,  do u think Earth is flat by any chance ?


I have seen the great ice barrier myself.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

Also the skysplitter argument is a weak one. Zoro hasn't fought any AdCoC user. Luffy could split the skies yet was still far behind Kaido.


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Also the skysplitter argument is a weak one. Zoro hasn't fought any AdCoC user. Luffy could split the skies yet was still far behind Kaido.


So Zoro's Adv.CoC was equal to Luffy's


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Lived as equals
> 
> They fought as equals
> 
> ...



I… I thought Kaidou had to hold back against BM?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

Soba said:


> So Zoro's Adv.CoC was equal to Luffy's


We don't know. Luffy should be above. The gap is hard to gauge.


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

@Chip Skylark 
Nah, you’re gonna have to disqualify them or something. 
my head is starting to hurt.


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## Oda Report (Jan 4, 2023)

Soba said:


> Yes. After all one did split the sky while the other... Split the sky?



Willful ignorance or you failed to see the massive difference in haki displayed via haki clash in kaidou vs Luffy compared to Big Mom and kaidou.

This is not complicated. 



Beast said:


> I… I thought Kaidou had to hold back against BM?



Man another reach. 

Just because kaidous CoC haki > greater then Big Moms CoC doesn't mean they weren't overall equals.


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## Great Potato (Jan 4, 2023)

Aldren said:


> The problem is quite a lot of Midtards believe Wano Kid+Law >= BM.
> 
> They put Kid > Zoro on the basis that Kid is around 50% of BM.



Characters aren't generally threatened by two people half their strength, or say four fighters a quarter of their strength. Fights aren't some math equation where 50 + 50 = 100, if you are at that bad of a stat deficit you are getting rolled. Case in point, Nightmare Luffy would have annihilated the sum of his parts that made him. 

When you say they are 50% Big Mom do you mean to say that she is twice as fast as Eustass Kid? Doesn't appear to be the case here.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Perhaps, you mean that Kid only has half as much physical strength as BM? Though that would seem to contradict him overpowering her Cognac in a physical struggle, not something that typically happens to someone half your strength.


*Spoiler*: __ 








I suppose when Law nuked a crater that dwarved surrounding mountains in radius and reached the magma far below the surface of Wano that attack was only 50% of Big Mom's max capacity? I'm sure she could have easily doubled that output.



Though if she had twice their firepower then it would of course be tough to explain them eating all of her attacks and bouncing back time and time again with only half her durability, where she was having her bones broken and requiring healing from their attacks.



The reality is the "midtards" aren't actually making this 50% argument as a basis, but it's rather a strawman you've assigned to them that turns out to not really mean anything under closer scrutiny.

The argument for Kid is based not on some arbitrary percentage, but upon the feats he performed. Being able to react and keep up with Emperors in a contest of speed, having the strength to physically grapple with Emperors, having the stamina and durability to soak insane amount of punishment over 40 chapters of fighting against Yonko, and having the attack power to bloody up and break bones of arguably the most durable character in One Piece.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 4 | GODA 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> is Katakuri among them too ? cause Ray said the same about FS users


What did he say?


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Just because kaidous CoC haki > greater then Big Moms CoC doesn't mean they weren't overall equals.


Did BM have to hold back her strength to balance it out or increase DF usage?  

This Zoro piece is kinda getting interesting.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> What did he say?


i posted the panel few post back


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> He very clearly made big mom lose her sword in the above sequence you seem to have ignored for some reason.





Beast said:


> Bruh, @fenaker literally ignored your post and tried to argue Kidds original awakening scene


I thought ur legions said Midd would disarm Zoro because of magnetic force and bad match up here and there ? 

Now that match up and ur headcanons about that died after i exposed them Huh ? 


Congratulations to disarming fat ass static mode BM by sticking her to a wall by assign, disarming her indirectly 

Killer could do that easily by engaging in a direct battle , No assign or whatever




What's funny is BM got disarmed from Zeus by Nami .



even Kaido got disarmed




But no where magnetic force is disarming Zoro because bad match ups

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 3


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## Oda Report (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Did BM have to hold back her strength to balance it out or increase DF usage?



Doesn't matter they are equals.

Big Moms haki isn't better then kaidous that's a fact doesn't make them any less equals tho.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Doesn't matter they are equals.
> 
> Big Moms haki isn't better then kaidous that's a fact doesn't make them any less equals tho.


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## Oda Report (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


>


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> I thought ur legions said Midd would disarm Zoro because of magnetic force and bad match up here and there ?
> 
> Now that match up and ur headcanons aboyt that died after i exposed them Huh ?
> 
> ...


But Zoro can’t be disarmed


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

Looking at capabilities and character (Midd would be stupid enough to try and tank some hits), I would give it to Zoro. Though Midd has a very strong case for portrayal. 

I just don't see Oda drawing a fight between these two without Kidd winning atm.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Looking at capabilities and character (Midd would be stupid enough to try and tank some hits), I would give it to Zoro. Though Midd has a very strong case for portrayal.
> 
> I just don't see Oda drawing a fight between these two without Kidd winning atm.


By portrayal Zoro destroys kid.
Kidd's feat are the better argument.

Oda made it clear Luffy is leaps above Kid and Law by feat and portroyal.
He never has characters with trash hype come close to Zoro. To the point his opponents can outshine Yonkou in their qualities. (King's durability over Kaido)

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> By portrayal Zoro destroys kid.
> Kidd's feat are the better argument.
> 
> Oda made it clear Luffy is leaps above Kid and Law by feat and portroyal.
> He never has characters with trash hype come close to Zoro. To the point his opponents can outshine Yonkou in their qualities. (King's durability over Kaido)


Zoro was portrayed as lower than the 3 wisdom kings


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Zoro was portrayed as lower than the 3 wisdom kings


The "3 wisdom kings" were not portrayed as equals or close to each other.
Kidd and Law were both in shocked by pre power up Zoro.
Kaido and Big mom were both in shocked by pre power up Zoro. Both by power output and defense. Zoro has the best defensive feat in all of Wano.

You're suffering from acute headcanon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Firo (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> I thought ur legions said Midd would disarm Zoro because of magnetic force and bad match up here and there ?
> 
> Now that match up and ur headcanons aboyt that died after i exposed them Huh ?
> 
> ...


2023 and Niggas still using outliers as feats.


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## God sl4yer (Jan 4, 2023)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> By portrayal Zoro destroys kid.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Danyboy (Jan 4, 2023)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> By portrayal Zoro destroys kid.


But, but Kid and Law appear on the same panel w Luffy

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> The "3 wisdom kings" were not portrayed as equals or close to each other.
> Kidd and Law were both in shocked by pre power up Zoro.
> Kaido and Big mom were both in shocked by pre power up Zoro. Both by power output and defense. Zoro has the best defensive feat in all of Wano.
> 
> You're suffering from acute headcanon.


So we're scaling by shocked faces?  

It was pretty clear that Kidd and Law were holding back their strongest moves on the rooftop. Zoro's best was to give a papercut to Kaido. Meanwhile, Kidd and Law put BM down with theirs. Totally different levels.  

While Luffy is stronger than Kidd or Law, they are portrayed as being on the same level by Oda.


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## Sablés (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> It was pretty clear that Kidd and Law were holding back their strongest moves on the rooftop. *Zoro's best* was to give a papercut to Kaido. Meanwhile, Kidd and Law put BM down with theirs. Totally different levels.


Zoro got a whole ass powerup after that, fam.
Law and Kidd didn't put BM down. Plot bombs did.
@Beast need not reply.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## verified (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> It was pretty clear that Kidd and Law were holding back their strongest moves on the rooftop. Zoro's best was to give a papercut to Kaido. Meanwhile, Kidd and Law put BM down with theirs. Totally different levels.


Papercuts don't leave permanent scars, nor do they elicit praise from somebody lol


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

Sablés said:


> Zoro got a whole ass powerup after that, fam.
> Law and Kidd didn't BM downs. Plot bombs did.
> @Beast need not reply.


Yeah, he got a power-up and looking at current Law, he got the ability to use awakening out of the gate. So they both got some gains from their fights   

Law and Kidd were breaking bones while Zoro could only give a papercut to Kaido, and when he got his Yamato-tier power-up, he still had to wait for the flames to be off.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

verified said:


> Papercuts don't leave permanent scars, nor do they elicit praise from somebody lol


It was so inconsequential compared to Oden's that it might as well be a papercut. If that's what you count as praise then do you lol.


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## Sablés (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yeah, he got a power-up and looking at current Law, he got the ability to use awakening out of the gate. So they both got some gains from their fights


Current Law and Kidd beat Zoro's ass. Ain't doubting that, especially if Zoro doesn't clash with Kizaru in Egghead.
I'm talking about Wano.



> Law and Kidd were breaking bones while Zoro could only give a papercut to Kaido, and when he got his Yamato-tier power-up, he still had to wait for the flames to be off.


Yamato is stronger than Law and Kidd too.
If Zoro could cut Kaido, but couldn't cut King even after the powerup, then that just means King is way more durable.
Perfectly understandable. Seraphims survived BB without a scratch.


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Looking at capabilities and character (Midd would be stupid enough to try and tank some hits), I would give it to Zoro. Though Midd has a very strong case for portrayal.
> 
> I just don't see Oda drawing a fight between these two without Kidd winning atm.


BM got free hits while Killer and Hawkins did too and Kidd wasn’t even able to clench his ass cheeks to take the hits but Zoro alone apparently can put him down with one or two open hits


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Sables tryna use my name to gain momentum. 
I won’t break you down anymore guys.
I was doing it for a few pages already, you deserve a break, get all the dupes together and attack.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

Sablés said:


> Current Law and Kidd beat Zoro's ass. Ain't doubting that, especially if Zoro doesn't clash with Kizaru in Egghead.


Okay.


Sablés said:


> Yamato is stronger than Law and Kidd too.


Fair.


Sablés said:


> If Zoro could cut Kaido, but couldn't cut King even after the powerup, then that just means King is way more durable.
> Perfectly understandable. Seraphims survived BB without a scratch.


I think if Kaido made an effort to defend with haki he would be more durable than King. 


Beast said:


> BM got free hits while Killer and Hawkins did too and Kidd wasn’t even able to clench his ass cheeks to take the hits but Zoro alone apparently can put him down with one or two open hits


None of those people has Zoro's lethality with the blade. Unless it's something like Ikoku, which Kidd conveniently never got to experience because he would be obliterated.


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## Oda Report (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Zoro was portrayed as lower than the 3 wisdom kings



No he wasn't.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> No he wasn't.


Zoro doesn't get to sit at the big boy table when they discuss captain matters. It's as simple as that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> I don't give a shit about that tbh , but since yesterday i saw ppl here saying this shit which in itself a headcanon that is a game changer here when you talk about Zoro vs Kidd .
> 
> Nice we agreed now .
> 
> ...



That's actually crazy because Vergo managed to disarm Law. Vergo's powers > awakened Kid's magnetism??


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> None of those people has Zoro's lethality with the blade. Unless it's something like Ikoku, which Kidd conveniently never got to experience because he would be obliterated.


Ikoku is literally stronger then 99% of all Zoros attacks and just as lethal and that didn’t do shit but break some scrap.
BM literally hits Kidd with Ikoku but what… Zoro one shots?

t

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oda Report (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Zoro doesn't get to sit at the big boy table when they discuss captain matters. It's as simple as that.



Yet Zoro was at the table out performing Kid and Law.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> None of those people has Zoro's lethality with the blade. Unless it's something like Ikoku,* which Kidd conveniently never got to experience because he would be obliterated.*

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Zoro doesn't get to sit at the big boy table when they discuss captain matters. It's as simple as that.



Buggy can sit at the same table as Shanks yet you would never equate them


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

they wanna change what portrayal means now.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Ikoku is literally stronger then 99% of all Zoros attacks and just as lethal and that didn’t do shit but break some scrap.
> BM literally hits Kidd with Ikoku but what… Zoro one shots?
> 
> t


You spoke about Kidd himself tanking attacks. Not Kidd's junk.

TBH, based on his attacks against Apoo and Kaido, how does Zoro not oneshot Midd if he is serious?


Oda Report said:


> Yet Zoro was at the table out performing Kid and Law.


That's very easy when Law and Kidd were holding back and Zoro blew his load. Which makes sense I guess. The weakest has to bring out his strongest moves first. 
Did Kidd tank it or did his junk take the attack?


TheWiggian said:


> Buggy can sit at the same table as Shanks yet you would never equate them


We all know Shanks and Mihawk would be doing the talking there.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> We all know Shanks and Mihawk would be doing the talking there.



But Buggy has the title not Mihawk


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> So we're scaling by shocked faces?
> 
> It was pretty clear that Kidd and Law were holding back their strongest moves on the rooftop. Zoro's best was to give a papercut to Kaido. Meanwhile, Kidd and Law put BM down with theirs. Totally different levels.
> 
> While Luffy is stronger than Kidd or Law, they are portrayed as being on the same level by Oda.


Scaling by everyone concededing the feat was insanity.
or
scaling by jumping off a waterfall.

That's a hard one. I think the feat and reaction to the feat are moe indicative of power than a gag, but that's just me.
I can see how you could see it differently if..you're irrational? I suppose.

"Put big mom down with theirs"  Lol. No, they didn't. The fight is based around them not being able to.


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## GreenEggsAHam (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Did Kidd tank it or did his junk take the attack?


Kidd tanked it, since his fruit can do that.


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

This is literally the next time we see them after Kidd had to be nerfed by plot aka Hawkins and BM got a free hit with a combo’d homies.


Seraphoenix said:


> You spoke about Kidd himself tanking attacks. Not Kidd's junk.
> 
> TBH, based on his attacks against Apoo and Kaido, how does Zoro not oneshot Midd if he is serious?


so… you’re basically asking… did Zoro slow down the attack or did his swords?

man’s junk isn’t stopping BMs full Ikoku, so he just as we can see as the suit is blown off his body, the attack did indeed hit him as you can see by the scale of it.
Or is Kidd limited and can’t use his suits?
Shit, if Kidd is being nerfed out here then I see why Zoro would win.

Apoo literally gets up and is attacking with literally nothing but a few panels in between. He didn’t do shit to Kaidou… are you moving the goal post now?
first it’s a paper cut, now it’s something that would one shot Kidd. BM couldn’t one shot Kidd even while he was nerfed heavily by outside interference, so this fanfic that Zoro could drop him with one or a few attacks is fanfic.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> But Buggy has the title not Mihawk


Yes, I’m sure in your world the interaction between Luffy, Kidd and Law mirrors the hypothetical meme interaction between Buggy and Shanks. 


Beast said:


> This is literally the next time we see them after Kidd had to be nerfed by plot aka Hawkins and BM got a free hit with a combo’d homies.
> 
> so… you’re basically asking… did Zoro slow down the attack or did his swords?
> 
> ...


Zoro attacks faster than BM. Also why do you assume Kidd already has his junk suit? Not that it matters much. Zoro was already cutting Pica level structures a while ago. Midd’s little toy won’t last long.

Kaido is much more durable than Midd. If he could give a paper cut to Kaido then it cleaves Kidd in half.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yes, I’m sure in your world the interaction between Luffy, Kidd and Law mirrors the hypothetical meme interaction between Buggy and Shanks.



You're the one that brought up the titles as measuring contest here but now you want to discard your own argument because it doesn't support your narrative in another case?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Zoro attacks faster than BM. Also why do you assume Kidd already has his junk suit? Not that it matters much. Zoro was already cutting Pica level structures a while ago. Midd’s little toy won’t last long.
> 
> Kaido is much more durable than Midd. If he could give a paper cut to Kaido then it cleaves Kidd in half.


Looool, BM grabs Marco with a choke, same Marco chokes king and Queen, that same king was faster and slapping Zoro around for majority of their fight and lost in a clash. 
ummm maybe the because he uses those suits to fight… are you going to ask me why I would assume Law would be in his room?
You keep writing fanfics, BM and Kaidou weren’t able to just put down Kidd but somehow Zoro does. So, either come with facts or go back to talking shit about admiral and shanks. Clearly you’re coming out of your depth.

BM couldn’t cleave Kidd while Kidd was taking free hits from killer and Hawkins, same killer while nerfed almost chopped Zoro in half.
So unless you want to make some stupid takes about BM not be able to cut Kaidou because she for sure couldn’t cleave Kidd even while nerfed. Go ahead and go take a seat with Ztards in the stupid corner.


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> But Zoro can’t be disarmed


I thought Kidd tards were saying Zoro was getting disarmed because of magnetic force and bad match up bluh bluh ? what happened to that ? instead ur legions started posting assign feat which INDIRECTLY disarmed BM , Midd needs to make contact with / touch his opponents to disarm them ?   

Kidd Legions down bad 

If what Kidd tards after all those headcanons of << match up and magnetic force disarming swordmen because meh metals >>  started posting assign feat , it's in itself destroys the headcanon of Match Up since assign doesn't just include swordmen , but any fighter who uses a kind of weapon including pistols ..... ; If Kidd could touch Benbeckman he is getting disarmed with the attraction force towards the object he is attracted towards .

But what's funny is you tier F powerscalers not thinking about how Kid would assign competent fighters than BM , No brain dead powerscaler would assume after Kid assigned BM he would do that to shanks , Kaido , Mihawk , Benbeckman , Law himself ; they aren't ur static mode fat ass one like BM who you can't find anyone in the alliance didn't touch her .


Nami could touch her and disam her from Zeus :





- Jinbei threw her down , Robin sent her down , Franky hit her with his motorcycle , Queen one shotted her , King sent her down ; That's how ass she is ....................


- Zoro could move before even Law used shambles and halted Hakai not even RT5s could react in time but Zoro could , he could block speed mode King and counter attack simultaneusly ; these feats are far above Midd's paygrade in speed ; keep thinking he would assign top tiers just because including Zoro who King couldn't even touch without enma's drawback

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> You're the one that brought up the titles as measuring contest here but now you want to discard your own argument because it doesn't support your narrative in another case?


It was about how the titles were portrayed with the characters. Luffy, Law and Kidd had the same portrayal as captains and wisdom kings. They were clearly not portrayed as the same as a random captain like Barto.

you’re the one who wanted to try and meme it by bringing up Buggy when we can very clearly see that Oda takes the Kidd, Law and Luffy trio seriously enough to do it on more than one occasion.

Zoro had to give input from a distance like the lackey and underling he is. Complain to Oda not me.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Looool, BM grabs Marco with a choke, same Marco chokes king and Queen, that same king was faster and slapping Zoro around for majority of their fight and lost in a clash.
> ummm maybe the because he uses those suits to fight… are you going to ask me why I would assume Law would be in his room?
> You keep writing fanfics, BM and Kaidou weren’t able to just put down Kidd but somehow Zoro does. So, either come with facts or go back to talking shit about admiral and shanks. Clearly you’re coming out of your depth.
> 
> ...


Kaido and BM kept up with each other for days. Granted Kaido was probably holding back. Zoro blitzed Kaido multiple times. He would do the same to BM and by extension, a slowpoke like Kidd.

He first has to gather the junk. He doesn’t just walk around in it. I do understand why you already want him in it. You know it’s a one page fight if he isn’t hiding in his toy.

Kaido and BM didn’t really target Kidd that much. They recognised the bigger threats were his superiors, Luffy, Law and Zoro.

let’s not go off topic with Shanks and admirals. No need to bring other characters that are also above Kidd. That list of characters is too big for one thread.

You keep making these weird comparisons as some attempt at transitive logic? Zoro cut Kaido’s scales and gave him a permanent scar. Those attacks would cut Kidd in half as he doesn’t have Kaido’s durability. Stop whining about Killer and BM when you know Kidd isn’t taking attacks that Kaido got cut by.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Granted Kaido was probably holding back.


Looooooooool what did I say?

Now go, stand in the stupid corner with @Eustathios


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Looooooooool what did I say?
> 
> Now go, stand in the stupid corner with @Eustathios


Concession accepted.

You’re a Midd fan, buddy. You’re in the dummy corner by default.


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## Oda Report (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> That's very easy when Law and Kidd were holding back and Zoro blew his load. Which makes sense I guess. The weakest has to bring out his strongest moves first.



Very easy for Kid and Law to hold back when Zoro and Luffy are carrying them.

Zoro was taken out because of Yonkou Combination attack, his best wasn't showcased outside of a weakened state.

Stop da cap..

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> It was about how the titles were portrayed with the characters. Luffy, Law and Kidd had the same portrayal as captains and wisdom kings. They were clearly not portrayed as the same as a random captain like Barto.



Yes and by titles Buggy shares the same portrayal with Teach, Luffy and Shanks.



Seraphoenix said:


> you’re the one who wanted to try and meme it by bringing up Buggy when we can very clearly see that Oda takes the Kidd, Law and Luffy trio seriously enough to do it on more than one occasion.



Can Oda portray Buggy becoming a yonko multiple times? He portrayed Shanks and Buggy as rivals in the past and now he reinforced it again by making Buggy an emperor too. Oda does take Shanks and Buggy's rivalry serious and portrays it more than on one occasion aswell, so by your own definition the argument stays strong.



Seraphoenix said:


> Zoro had to give input from a distance like the lackey and underling he is. Complain to Oda not me.



I suppose you should'nt cry about Buggy being Shanks rival and in a stalemate with him as fellow yonko then. Not to mention that he also has superior portrayal over the wisdom kings with a higher bounty.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Concession accepted.
> 
> You’re a Midd fan, buddy. You’re in the dummy corner by default.


Hey, How much did Kaidou hold back by?

20%, 25% or you think it’s drastic like 50% power held back 
There’s a reason I brought up the admirals, you stay in your corner, you’ve actually been looking pretty decent with the Ls the admirals are racking up.


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Concession accepted.
> 
> You’re a Midd fan, buddy. You’re in the dummy corner by default.


Sera , u have brain dead powerscalers in this forum F tier if i speak , WG Forum is the place for S tier Powerscalers ; This forum is down bad they spread headcanons that i would be embrassed to even believe i understand now why Ndule ran away to here

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Hey, How much did Kaidou hold back by?
> 
> 20%, 25% or you think it’s drastic like 50% power held back
> There’s a reason I brought up the admirals, you stay in your corner, you’ve actually been looking pretty decent with the Ls the admirals are racking up.


You’re jumping to my Kaido comment as you know there is no defence for the mauling you received regarding Kidd 

I think a better thread is Kidd vs Sanji. Midd fans need to prove h can get past the cook first,


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> Sera , u have brain dead powerscalers in this forum F tier if i speak , WG Forum is the place for S tier Powerscalers ; This forum is down bad they spread headcanons that i would be embrassed to even believe i understand now why Ndule ran away to here


It’s funny how some of them just make up things and then like 5 of them repeat it for months on end

Ndule gets shit here too though tbf


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Kidd Bois i'm still waiting for panels of magnetic force disarming swordmen of Zoro's caliber because meh bad match up

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3


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## Eustathios (Jan 4, 2023)

Lol AdCoC goes brrrr


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> You’re jumping to my Kaido comment as you know there is no defence for the mauling you received regarding Kidd
> 
> I think a better thread is Kidd vs Sanji. Midd fans need to prove h can get past the cook first,


Loool you wrote the fanfic not me. Mauling using fanfic  

Looool, you already said you can’t see Oda having Zoro beat Kidd but of course when you are start freestyling your shit, it can happen, a man’s dream shall never die.


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> It’s funny how some of them just make up things and then like 5 of them repeat it for months on end


Dude named incognito said since november :
<<  Kidd disarmed BM because of Magnetic force despite her great haki he is for sure a bad match up >>

I just posted panels showing his beliefs being headcanons , he started :
Oh meh , i thought i was right my mistake  

Kidd tards went from Magnetic force would disarm weapon users because of bad matchup to Kidd would just touch the opponent , who would get attracted to the object he is assigned to and he would let lose of his weapons like Big Mom 

They forgot how ass BM is since everyone and their mothers tagged her including Nami who stole zeus from her hands easily

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Oda Report (Jan 4, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Lol AdCoC goes brrrr



maybe Kid will catch up at the end of elbaf.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> If Kidd can do that to BM head on and make BM lose grip of her sword then Kidd can do the same to Zoro too .


Kidd didn’t disarm BM using magnetism.
But… but how?
@fenaker literally just proved everyone wrong.
Oda how can you do this!!!!


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

impossible!!!!!

BM actually threw the sword at Kidd!

That’s what happened right guys!!!??


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> impossible!!!!!
> 
> BM actually threw the sword at Kidd!
> 
> That’s what happened right guys!!!??




She did throw it away vs Franky too, so it's not the first time

Reactions: Funny 2


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Kidd didn’t disarm BM using magnetism.
> But… but how?


How Kidd didn't disarm BM's weapon directly using magnetic force since meh bad match up against Weapons users ? 
But How now ?

Funnily enough :


fenaker said:


> Kidd tards went from Magnetic force would disarm weapon users because of bad matchup to Kidd would just touch the opponent , who would get attracted to the object he is assigned to and he would let lose of his weapons like Big Mom


and what's even funny :


fenaker said:


> They forgot how ass BM is since everyone and their mothers tagged her including Nami who stole zeus from her hands easily


more than funny :


fenaker said:


> But what's funny is you tier F powerscalers not thinking about how Kid would assign competent fighters than BM , No brain dead powerscaler would assume after Kid assigned BM he would do that to shanks , Kaido , Mihawk , Benbeckman , Law himself ; they aren't ur static mode fat ass one like BM who you can't find anyone in the alliance didn't touch her .
> 
> 
> Nami could touch her and disam her from Zeus :
> ...


That's how ass powerscalers in Kidd legion are

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sanji (Jan 4, 2023)

When you start bringing Buggy into it you know there’s some barrel scraping going down.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## verified (Jan 4, 2023)

Kidd's best "feats" in fighting Big Mom don't even matter that much because Big Mom never used adv Conq, just sucks at fighting in general, got blitzed by essentially everybody, and still needed random ass bombs to finish her + Law's help


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Sanji said:


> When you start bringing Buggy into it you know there’s some barrel scraping going down.



What does a Sanji fan want in a big boy thread?

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> She did throw it away vs Franky too, so it's not the first time


Wait… how… how did Franky use magnetism so perfectly?!??




fenaker said:


> How Kidd didn't disarm BM's weapon directly using magnetic force since meh bad match up against Weapons users ?
> But How now ?


wait…are you saying prom is harder to magnetise then Bm herself? 
wait… are we playing football? When did the goal post move so suddenly?!??

now prom and Enma have better haki then Zoro and BM to resist Kidds DF ability?


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## Ars?ne (Jan 4, 2023)

Kid is clear. Hope they do fight though. I'd love to see Zoro getting flung across an island again.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Wait… how… how did Franky use magnetism so perfectly?!??



Not as perfect as Vergo with his spoon on the cheek but he pulled it off

Reactions: GODA 1


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## verified (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Wait… how… how did Franky use magnetism so perfectly?!??


He must've inserted them over the timeskip

Reactions: Informative 1


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Zoro was portrayed as lower than the 3 wisdom kings


That only means something if Law or Kid can back up that wisdom king title or whatever. They’re not. Luffy is stronger than either of them.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

From Kidd can’t disarm Zoro or BM, to Zoro can’t be disarmed or magnetised because of haki to Kidd can’t use magnetism to disarm anyone of Zoros calibre to now using magnetism on the sword to disarm them only


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Seraphoenix said:


> Zoro doesn't get to sit at the big boy table when they discuss captain matters. It's as simple as that.


Zoro can boss around Law to get him to teleport and get a beer for him at the deli.

lets not kid ourselves here


Kid will say thanks bro.

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Zoros got better haki then BM and Kaidou was holding back against BM have been by far my walk away statements from this thread so far.


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## Sanji (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> What does a Sanji fan want in a big boy thread?



To sit back and watch you flounder

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Zoros got better haki then BM and Kaidou was holding back against BM have been by far my walk away statements from this thread so far.


I dont know about Kaido but Big mom…its not too high a standard…


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> now prom and Enma have better haki then Zoro and BM to resist Kidds DF ability?



That's natural since Enma uses Oden's haki:



Beast said:


> Wait… wait a damn minute, so you mean to tell me, when the scabbards are talking about *Odens haki and Kaidou supports it*… it happened and *makes sense.*
> 
> 
> But Zoros uses Enma and Kaidou recognises Odens sword and haki, NOPE not how haki works… welp.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Sanji said:


> To sit back and watch you flounder



Oh you're welcome then. As Kid would say:

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> ait…are you saying prom is harder to magnetise then Bm herself?
> wait… are we playing football? When did the goal post move so suddenly?!??
> 
> now prom and Enma have better haki then Zoro and BM to resist Kidds DF ability?


Nice progression tbh with Kidd legions , we went from Magnetic force and bad match up meh metals are what needed to disarm weapons users  to posting assign feat which needs Kidd to touch his opponents to disarm them 

So Midd needs to touch his opponents to assign them so he could disarm them , waiting for Midd's Speed Feats that would let him touch his opponents including Zoro , Luffy , Law , Yamato and Top Tiers 

Bonus for Midd's reaction speed :

Midd couldn't react to a gifter attack and needed saving from base Luffy

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> That's natural since Enma uses Oden's haki:


Great thing Kidd can just go for the weak link and magnetise Zolo


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Great thing Kidd can just go for the weak link and magnetise Zolo


 
He could but what would protect him from Enma in the meantime?


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> Nice progression tbh with Kidd legions , we went from Magnetic force and bad match up meh metals are what needed to disarm weapons users  to posting assign feat which needs Kidd to touch his opponents to disarm them
> 
> So Midd needs to touch his opponents to assign them so he could disarm them , waiting for Midd's Speed Feats that would let him touch his opponents including Zoro , Luffy , Law , Yamato and Top Tiers
> 
> ...


Looool just say you can’t even follow pictures bruh


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> He could but what would protect him from Enma in the meantime?


Enma fights on its own?

Zolo piece is getting hectic, I haven’t gotten that far yet


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Enma fights on its own?
> 
> Zolo piece is getting hectic, I haven’t gotten that far yet



Of course it does, at the very least Oden's haki that leaks out of it twerks around freely and cuts down people left and right


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> So Midd needs to touch his opponents to assign them so he could disarm them ,


loooooool you guys are too much man.
You came all out with the jokes today.


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Of course it does, at the very least Oden's haki that leaks out of it twerks around freely and cuts down people left and right


The mighty twerking?!??!!
You know that’s unfair, it’s a forbidden technique!!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> The mighty twerking?!??!!
> You know that’s unfair, it’s a forbidden technique!!!



Didn't stop Raizo from edo tensei'ing him

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Didn't stop Raizo from edo tensei'ing him


Kidd gotta get Kanjuro by default.
Kidd, Kanjuro, slime and bombs Vs Enma, Zoro and raizou!!

Reactions: Funny 2


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Looool just say you can’t even follow pictures bruh


U sure about this ? I know Kidd tards in this forum have Low IQ that they can't read 

- Kidd had exclamations , he didn't know what's up

- the second panel shows that Kid just reacted to what's happening but it was late since base Luffy saved him .

- Fourth Panel shows how upset Kid was after he knew that Luffy saved him and he couldn't handle that alone 



Understood Midd fan ?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> loooooool you guys are too much man.
> You came all out with the jokes today.


Post panels of midd disarming opponents of Zoro's caliber with magnetic force because of bad match up and metals that ur legions spread around instead of midd needing to touch them , another assign Feat


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> U sure about this ? I know Kidd tards in this forum have Low IQ that they can't read
> 
> - Kidd had exclamations , he didn't know what's up
> 
> ...


Could it be… no impossible… if @fenaker confjrmed it then it must be True. Kidd didn’t actually react to Luffy but he actually didn’t see the attack coming at all.


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> Post panels of midd disarming opponents of Zoro's caliber with magnetic force because of bad match up and metals that ur legions spread around instead of midd needing to touch them , another assign Feat


Wait… so you’re reconfirming that BM was actually not disarmed using magnetism?
Or is that Zoro is stronger and got better haki than BM?

which one was it again?


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

o0Shinthi0o said:


>


Zolo piece can’t be better then this… no way!!


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Could it be… no impossible… if @fenaker confjrmed it then it must be True. Kidd didn’t actually react to Luffy but he actually didn’t see the attack coming at all.


it must hurt since midd stans until now down bad , no arguments just the usual cope


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> it must hurt since midd stans until now down bad , no arguments just the usual cope


Loool you still think Kidd needs to physically touch someone to assign them


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

@fenaker i know you’re a good sport, come back with that Crop piece man!!


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Wait… so you’re reconfirming that BM was actually not disarmed using magnetism?
> Or is that Zoro is stronger and got better haki than BM?
> 
> which one was it again?


No panel of Kid disarming opponents of Zoro's caliber because metals are attracted to magnetic force ? 

Kidd playing the game of touch me if you want to disarm me 

The magnetic force is so great that u need to touch ur opponents to get attracted to disarm them instead of disarming weapons by pulling them off using attraction force 

Match up and metals pulling Feats down bad


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Loool you still think Kidd needs to physically touch someone to assign them


show panels of Midd not needing to touch them to assign them


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> @fenaker i know you’re a good sport, come back with that Crop piece man!!


down bad midd stans with no arguments


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> No panel of Kid disarming opponents of Zoro's caliber because metals are attracted to magnetic force ?


Now, not only does he have to disarm them using magnetism… he has to magnetise using the metal only to disarm them?


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> show panels of Midd not needing to touch them to assign them


The panels been posted a good 5 times  




fenaker said:


> down bad midd stans with no arguments


You can’t even follow pictures bruh, nothing I can do but do as they do in scho, abuse you for your stupidity!


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## Empathy (Jan 4, 2023)

MrPopo said:


> Do you have  Zoro stronger than the admirals?



No, but I think Zoro and Kid are very comparable physically. A clear edge in Haki is a huge advantage.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> show panels of Midd not needing to touch them to assign them

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


>


@fenaker likes crop piece, crop each panel. He needs them one at a time. You’re going to fast, that picture is too big for him to concentrate!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> not only does he have to disarm them using magnetism


Panels of disarming Opponent on Zoro's caliber , Funnily enough he couldn't even with Law .


fenaker said:


> What's funny is Law himself was in the range of Punk Crash :
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Beast said:


> he has to magnetise using the metal only to disarm them?


Midd doesn't disarm Competent Opponents using magnetic force in a direct pull like what ur legion spread instead he uses the attraction that brings the opponent to the object he is attracted to and with the shock he let his weapon off and to do that funnily enough he needs to get as close as possible to his opponent face to face so he could put the assign mark on them .

that would work on static mode fat ass BM or Teach , but let me see if he would still have his hand after he gets close to competent ones when his speed and reaction speed are ass

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> Panels of disarming Opponent on Zoro's caliber , Funnily enough he couldn't even with Law .
> 
> 
> Midd doesn't disarm Competent Opponents using magnetic force in a direct pull like what ur legion spread instead he uses the attraction that brings the opponent to the object he is attracted to and with the shock he let his weapon off and to do that funnily enough he needs to get as close as possible to his opponent face to face so he could put the assign mark on them .
> ...


 

I’m sorry I broke you like this man but life’s not fair!


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> that would work on static mode fat ass BM or Teach , but let me see if he would still have his hand after he gets close to competent ones when his speed and reaction speed are ass


So do you at least agree that he doesn't need physically contact to assign people.

...you mean the same big mom who managed to chase the entire strawhats and nearly killed them by running alone. I guess base luffy is a slow too...


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


>


Thanks for confirming my points , No panels of attracting and pulling weapons against Top tiers and Zoro tiers instead reposting assign feat 

Nice we could see midd getting in as close as he could to the opponent so he could send assign mark to the opponent's body, face to face with Big Mom and face to face with the object assigned , midd legion down bad


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> I’m sorry I broke you like this man but life’s not fair!


sorry to break u and ur fandom since match up and metals and all those headcanons got exposed that ur legion still couldn't prove them


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> Thanks for confirming my points , No panels of attracting and pulling weapons against Top tiers and Zoro tiers instead reposting assign feat
> 
> Nice we could see midd getting in as close as he could to the opponent so he could send assign mark to the opponent's body, face to face with Big Mom and face to face with the object assigned , midd legion down bad


You do understand that was because his bull attack is a close combat attack, that was moving while he was...

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> sorry to break u and ur fandom since match up and metals and all those headcanons got exposed that ur legion still couldn't prove them


You’ve turned into a broken jukebox man, shit. Good luck with your healing.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 4, 2023)

I have what I call the ‘Strong People Checklist’ (coined this term 3 minutes ago), basically I look at what powerups the strongest people have and apply it across the board to everyone in the series.

What powerups did Roger have? ACoC, ACoA and ACoO most likely is it. That tells me those are the only powerups one really _needs_ to reach the top. I’m sorry, but awakening isn’t there.

Now, between Kidd and Zoro who is closest to having all 3 of those powerups? Zoro

Who do I believe will single-handedly defeat a Yonkou level opponent first? Zoro

There’s more to that but this is generally how my thought process goes about most tier list related things.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Neutral 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

Also literally in the same page we see her sword being pulled by the bull...


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> So do you at least agree that he doesn't need physically contact to assign people.


i didn't mean to* physically make contact* , he needs to touch them in the sense of getting as close as he has to face to face with the opponent to throw the assign mark on their body which btw wouldn't happen just because he got closer to fat ass static BM , i'm still waiting for panels of ur legions's claims about Magnetic force and bad match up


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> You do understand that was because his bull attack is a close combat attack, that was moving while he was...


Kidd reach is unlike anything seen before. With it, he could slap BM then the wall behind her all the while in the air Kidd manages to land back in the bull infront of BM.


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Also literally in the same page we see her sword being pulled by the bull...


show me Midd disarming BM's weapon using magnetic force and bad match up that u midd legion spread around


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> show me Midd disarming BM's weapon using magnetic force and bad match up that u midd legion spread around


Why would BM be a bad match up for Kidd like Zoro?


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> You’ve turned into a broken jukebox man, shit. Good luck with your healing.


Don't worry i broke u to the point , u started hallucinating ; in this thread we got midd's ass reaction speed , headcanons of bad match up ...


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

I said I was gonna leave you guys for a few, I LIED!


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> Why would BM be a bad match up for Kidd like Zoro?


weapon user , didn't midd - SNIP - say he is bad match up because he attracts metals with his magnetic force and he could disarm opponents by that , changing ur words when BM with a metalic weapon around but midd didn't achieve what u claimed


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

Dudes absolutely every fandom outside the legion is telling you Kidd is stronger. Enough is enough, you fought well. Time to move the debate to Zoro vs Sanji again

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> You do understand that was because his bull attack is a close combat attack, that was moving while he was...


> post panels of midd assigned from far away :
he needs to get as close as he should face to face with his opponents to assign opponents .

> No panels of bad match up and whatever the fuck midd - SNIP - spread .


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> weapon user , didn't midd tards say he is bad match up because he attracts metals with his magnetic force and he could disarm opponents by that , changing ur words when BM with a metalic weapon around but midd didn't achieve what u claimed


BM can use her own DF on metal loooooooool


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 4, 2023)

Looks like Kidd won the poll decisively


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Chip Skylark said:


> Looks like Kidd won the poll decisively


You got play referee too! 
What’s the verdict as far as this laughable debates have been?


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 4, 2023)

Soba said:


> Dudes absolutely every fandom outside the legion is telling you Kidd is stronger. Enough is enough, you fought well. Time to move the debate to Zoro vs Sanji again


Every other group is getting this completely wrong.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Soba said:


> Dudes absolutely every fandom outside the legion is telling you Kidd is stronger. Enough is enough, you fought well. Time to move the debate to Zoro vs Sanji again



Fr i'm waiting for Kidd to show feats of beating King , the last time he couldn't even do shit to BM's skin which is less durable than King, he couldn't penetrate it 




Middo played on targetting  the place that law attacked / nerfed previously using Puncture wille, so he could draw more blood from the internal injury 

Law was right all along

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Soba (Jan 4, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Every other group is getting this completely wrong.


of course the unbiased guys are less objective than the biased guys

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

@fenaker for some reason you've spent four pages on this thread beating about a point that's already been conceded and failed to address the fact that kid actually did disarm big mom in ways without magnetism. You're arguing in bad faith, this is why no one concedes points here because of people like you. 

Several times you've stated incognitos says that you can magnetically disarm after the fact I've recanted that statement. This makes you the liar now not me. You're dominating the conversation with a giant lie and getting circle jerked for it by 3 or 4 other people. 

The conversation should be switched to can zoro he disarmed by kid when king has been able to disarm him half a dozen times and kid was able to disarm big mom in a panel you for some reason have ignored 4 times by my count.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> Fr i'm waiting for Kidd to show feats of beating King , the last time he couldn't even do shit to BM's skin which is less durable than King, he couldn't penetrate it


You mean the same durability that was overpowered by Zoro, and Marco.
But couldn't even overpower Big moms.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jan 4, 2023)

Oda Report said:


> Big Moms not really a speedy chracters to begin with espically in a 2v1. Also nope dragon blaze had Big Mom a shook one while that's not even Zoros most powerful attack.


Zoro is not a speedy character either.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 4, 2023)

Soba said:


> of course the unbiased guys are less objective than the biased guys


Exactly. Like I said, all the strongest pirates in the story use a specific set of powerups. We’ve seen Zoro use them and not Kidd.

People can think what they want for now, but this truly isn’t rocket science.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1 | Disagree 1


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> BM can use her own DF on metal loooooooool


So he couldn't attract that metal by using his magnetic force ? isn't that the reason for why the bad match up headcanon is there ? why when he assigned BM all metals around got attracted that midd needed saving since he couldn't control it 


Law still had his grip on his sword with the magnetic range around them






Headcanon of bad match up died badly


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> So he couldn't attract that metal by using his magnetic force ? isn't that the reason for why the bad match up headcanon is there ? why when he assigned BM all metals around got attracted that midd needed saving since he couldn't control it
> 
> 
> Law still had his grip on his sword with the magnetic range around them
> ...


Yes. Law is able to teleport things including his sword.


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> So he couldn't attract that metal by using his magnetic force ? isn't that the reason for why the bad match up headcanon is there ? why when he assigned BM all metals around got attracted that midd needed saving since he couldn't control it
> 
> 
> Law still had his grip on his sword with the magnetic range around them
> ...


Looooool it’s a marvel that you’re this special.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> > post panels of midd assigned from far away :
> he needs to get as close as he should face to face with his opponents to assign opponents .
> 
> > No panels of bad match up and whatever the fuck midd tards spread .


Actually you may be right about the 1st part.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jan 4, 2023)

I think liking Zoro gives you more objectivity since his fighting style is strictly based on sequencing and is one of the most well represented throughout the manga.

It's crazy how others don't understand the most basic element of what supposedly is their favorite character.

This is just like how Law's people claimed Law had a "tip nuke" and puncture willie "didn't go throw Onigashima" because it would've destroyed the island.

Now they're just fantasizing about Kidd having disarming abilities vs a much much stronger haki user than him for no reason, lmao.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> @fenaker for some reason you've spent four pages on this thread beating about a point that's already been conceded and failed to address the fact that kid actually* did disarm big mom in ways without magnetism*. You're arguing in bad faith, this is why no one concedes points here because of people like you.


So he couldn't disarm in the means Kidd legion mentioned about ? Bad match up against weapon users since Kidd would disarm them by attracting them using magnetic force ? 

Now we are using No magnetic means or at least using and playing on attracting opponents to disarm them 

Nice progression i said and i will resay it :

Now about ur points :



fenaker said:


> Congratulations to disarming fat ass static mode BM by sticking her to a wall by assign, disarming her indirectly
> 
> Killer could do that easily by engaging in a direct battle , No assign or whatever
> 
> ...





fenaker said:


> If what Kidd tards after all those headcanons of << match up and magnetic force disarming swordmen because meh metals >> started posting assign feat , it's in itself destroys the headcanon of Match Up since assign doesn't just include swordmen , but any fighter who uses a kind of weapon including pistols ..... ; If Kidd could get as close as he should face to face to Benbeckman , the latter is getting disarmed with the attraction force towards the object he is attracted towards .
> 
> But what's funny is you tier F powerscalers not thinking about how Kid would assign competent fighters than BM , No brain dead powerscaler would assume after Kid assigned BM he would do that to shanks , Kaido , Mihawk , Benbeckman , Law himself ; they aren't ur static mode fat ass one like BM who you can't find anyone in the alliance didn't touch her or even get close to her .
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Now they're just fantasizing about Kidd having disarming abilities vs a much much stronger haki user than him for no reason, lmao.


Trying to compare loros haki to big moms after his silly rant of "kidd fans wanking"

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> I think liking Zoro gives you more objectivity since his fighting style is strictly based on sequencing and is one of the most well represented throughout the manga.
> 
> It's crazy how others don't understand the most basic level element of what supposedly is their favorite character.
> 
> ...


For your last point. That's not the case you're making up literal strawman arguments. The only person who said kid can disarm while holding swords is me. Which I then was proven wrong and recanted the statement. When the conversation switched to using magnetic powers on swords not being held (which kid has shown he can do) and whether kid can disarm a swordsman (which he's able to disarm big mom and zoro was disarmed by king multiple times) for some reason the people in this thread are unable to do. It's like a purgatory of bad faith actors here.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> I think liking Zoro gives you more objectivity since his fighting style is strictly based on sequencing and is one of the most well represented throughout the manga.
> 
> 
> Now they're just fantasizing about Kidd having disarming abilities vs a much much stronger haki user than him for no reason, lmao.


loooooool all in the same post 
Being a Zoro fan makes a better reader of the manga is definitely in my top 3 statements of this thread.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

I'm sorry @fenaker I'm not longer going to debate with someone who is unable to accept when others concede points.


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

Beast said:


> loooooool all in the same post
> Being a Zoro makes a better reader of the manga is definitely in my top 3 statements of this thread.


Also fenaker seems like an alt. 300 posts and like half are in this thread. Seems like someone's banned and uses an alt in kid or law threads as a bad faith actor.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

Why can't Kidd just assign Zoro's swords to a wall? If king could disarm Zoro why can't Eustass kidd with a stronger awakening ability.
Zoro isn't as strong or heavy enough to not get pulled to the wall so if he were to keep holding on, he would just set himself up in an area where kidd is at his best.


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## Beast (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Also fenaker seems like an alt. 300 posts and like half are in this thread. Seems like someone's banned and uses an alt in kid or law threads as a bad faith actor.


I told you all these ztards, it’s only 5 fat fucks behind screens, maybe 10 if we are being generous  but I hate to believe there’s 10 sad ducks like that.


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> You mean the same durability that was overpowered by Zoro, and Marco.


Zoro after he used Onigiri ,He drew more blood than Marco's attack who gave King a droplets of blood , 


Zoro after he used a far stronger attack than Marco's and Onigiri including Shi shishi sonson :



Zoro after that : No blood , 

While Midd couldn't even make Kaido bleeding whose defence is below King 


Unresponsive said:


> But couldn't even overpower Big moms.


BM needed Haki for a regular Kong Gun

While Kaido tanked Kong organs as a massage without haki , Damn the durability of monsters in Kaido and King


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Why can't Kidd just assign Zoro's swords to a wall? If king could disarm Zoro why can't Eustass kidd with a stronger awakening ability.
> Zoro isn't as strong or heavy enough to not get pulled to the wall so if he were to keep holding on, he would just set himself up in an area where kidd is at his best.



Because Zoro could create a huge ass armament barrier which prevented even someone with feats of disarming him previously from disarming him post haki upgrade is my guess while in Kidd's case it's just an assumption so far.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> Zoro after he used Onigiri ,He drew more blood than Marco's attack who gave King a droplets of blood ,
> 
> 
> Zoro after he used a far stronger attack than Marco's and Onigiri including Shi shishi sonson :
> ...


Zoro uses an attack that seems to be stronger than shi shi son son, but marco uses a knee attack and makes him bleed.
Shishi son son does 0 damage to king, yet his rengoku onigiri does damage.
Rengoku onigiri>Shishi son son


Kaido has a defense that's superior to king...

But prove big mom's durability is weaker than kings like you claim it is.


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

I'll see you all at the great debate. This isn't a debate. This is a schoolhouse yard brawl.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Because Zoro could create a huge ass armament barrier which prevented even someone with feats of disarming him previously from disarming him post haki upgrade is my guess while in Kidd's case it's just an assumption so far.


King uses physical contact, kid doesn't need to use physical contact. Plus that seems like a barrier technique and not armament haki, maybe he used no contact advcoc.

I mean kidd was shown to assign big moms sword onto her and an entire building so it doesn't seem like it's impossible. And he did assign big mom to a building.


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> I'm sorry @fenaker I'm not longer going to debate with someone who is unable to accept when others concede points.


the irony is after discussing here , all of u got no points ; U all started the Kid > Zoro debat with headcanons that u think they are perceived as facts when there is no fucking panel that shows what u all dream about , and we went point by point to get to see u all saying Oh Kidd would disarm others using No magnetic tactics or at least play on the opponent attracted which in ur legion should be perceived as a good progression but u all still in the bottom of the well , to get to make Kidd disarming opponents , he needs assign mark , to do that he needs to get as close as he has to *face to face* to put that mark , u got two issues here :

1/ this disarming method wouldn't only work on weapon users also snipers like yasopp and all of any weapon user no matter what it is , So the idea of bad match up against bladed weapons dies here since this method isn't directed to a single team .

2/ To achieve that Kidd needs to be faster than the opponent , Now let's see Kidd 's speed Feats ? any relevant speed Feat ? who is this mf who would wait for Kid to get as close as he wants ?

Kaido ? thunder bagua goes burrrr
Shanks ? a swordman with ranged slashes , u want a death wish if u get closer to a swordman
Killer ? a Death wish
Zoro ? King who is faster than Kidd couldn't hit Zoro instead got blocked and slashed in a counter attack
Luffy ? FS says Hi
Law ? Shambles goes Burrrr
...................

It isn't just because Kidd got closer to assign BM that he would do that to others when Meme got blitzed , touched , hurt by all mfs of the alliance from the slow one to the fast one .

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> King uses physical contact, kid doesn't need to use physical contact. Plus that seems like a barrier technique and not armament haki, maybe he used no contact advcoc.



It's the same application as the admirals used against WB's quake and Ray demonstrated against the elephant.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> It's the same application as the admirals used against WB's quake and Ray demonstrated against the elephant.


I don't know about that, because it's also the same thing advcoc was shown to use too.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> I don't know about that, because it's also the same thing advcoc was shown to use too.



Pretty inconsistent in terms of art I agree. AdvCoC is more of a boost to your stats and haki instead of being a separate layer of armament.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## fenaker (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Zoro uses an attack that seems to be stronger than shi shi son son, but marco uses a knee attack and makes him bleed.
> Shishi son son does 0 damage to king, yet his rengoku onigiri does damage.
> *Rengeoku onigiri>Shishi son son*




Onigiri did more damage than Marco's hit , shishi sonson is one of the strongest attack :




Clown , Zoro used onigiri and couldn't do shit to Mr 1 while shishi sonson one shotted him , guess which one is stronger



fenaker said:


> > I saw Law wankers spreading misinformations around here while majority of the fandom knows that : King > Kaido > BM in durability
> 
> > Let's start with King and Kaido and BM  :
> 
> ...


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

fenaker said:


> Onigiri did more damage than Marco's hit , shishi sonson is one of the strongest attack :
> 
> 
> 
> Clown , Zoro used onigiri and couldn't do shit to Mr 1 while shishi sonson one shotted him , guess which one is stronger


The lies you say to try to prove a point I misspelled.
Marco used his knees while Zoro is using an attack over Death Lion Strike

Purgatory onigiri=Rengoku onigiri
The meaning of れんごく(means purgatory) SO it's the same attack if you were trying to mock me. 

But purgatory onigiri is different from a regular onigiri.


Lack of context, he says this after he used "black rope tatsumaki" which king blocked.

Zoro used haki unknowingly somehow. He used both observation haki and armament haki.














Shishi son son with haki> Onigiri which is weaker than pugatory onigiri without haki.


Lack of context, proceeded to lie and use statements that had nothing to do with it. Then called me a clownTry it again


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Pretty inconsistent in terms of art I agree. AdvCoC is more of a boost to your stats and haki instead of being a separate layer of armament.


AdvCoC does have the same ability with no contact, even if it isn't a haki clash.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> AdvCoC does have the same ability with no contact, even if it isn't a haki clash.



Which isn't exclusive to it since AdvCoA had it before AdvCoC was even a thing. AdCoC had those haki tentacle trails but it's not exclusive to it either so it's extremely hard to depict which one it is when you see it. 

I solely base AdvCoC being a boost of stats and own haki applications on Luffy and Zoro getting physically much stronger upon unlocking it and started to use massive armament emission barriers. 

Which makes sense with Rayleighs explanation of Haoshoku haki.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

Now for the "durability thing".
It is already established in the manga itself that Big Moms external durability is superior to everyone that we have currently saw.
Kaido didn't "block" anything, all he did was tank the shots. He didn't even move while in base form until he was sober again.

Big mom was clashing with Luffy, that doesn't mean she requires haki to defend against him. She was trying to fight him...and only used armament haki.


Yes her durability comes from her skin and that's why many consider her to have the greatest external durability.
Kaido was in base form so the scales don't count for him and even if that was the case that's still a part of his durability. Just like how flame mode and lunarian body is apart of kings durability.

Now that statement could mean many things. But in this context he seems to be replying to the "So between the Dragon and Dinos, you guys soak up damage like nobody's business" statement. Kings response could be because his durability in a way is special since it comes from his race rather than his actual devil fruit or the brute/bizarre nature that Kaido and Big mom have.  It doesn't imply or seem to say that he is calling his durability superior to Kaidos or Big moms even though the manga shows otherwise lol.

Spreading misinformation and hiding context lol

*Spoiler*: _Comparison.1_ 



Kaido facing an Tatsumaki that's using enma's power and not blocking vs King facing a weaker version while Blocking.

if you do not know what enma's power is


*Spoiler*: _Enma's power_ 








Now this is something that's actually factual and proves a point. Here is a purgatory onigiri(implied to have enma's power but not enough)Chapter 1001 vs purgatory onigiri with no statement or showcase of enma's power chapter 1022




Does absolutely 0 damage against a base KAIDO with no haki imbued or any dragon scales yet it a purgatory onigiri with absolutely no enma power used somehow damaged the man who's supposed to have better external durability than Kaido and Big mom

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Bash24 (Jan 4, 2023)

Zoro beat a Lunarian right hand of a yonko while having sword control issues, no knowledge and being on borrowed time after getting fucked up on the roof top. 

The big mom fight has to be the most overrated fight in the series. You had Law and a yonko wannabe tag teaming the most incompetent yonko in the series and they only ended up winning because of nukes.  

Luffy on the other hand flat out beat what was likely the strongest yonko in a 1 vs 1. 

If you put everything in context i don't see what Mid did as being more impressive than Zoro. At best you can say mid had slightly better showings. 
"ohh but Mid and Law are portrayed as close to Luffy" please....

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 4 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

Bash24 said:


> Zoro beat a Lunarian right hand of a yonko while having sword control issues, no knowledge and being on borrowed time after getting fucked up on the roof top.
> 
> The big mom fight has to be the most overrated fight in the series. You had Law and a yonko wannabe tag teaming the most incompetent yonko in the series and they only ended up winning because of nukes.
> 
> ...


Didn't luffy also have Yamato, zoro, the 9 scabards, momo, Marco, Kid, and law and the the fact kaidou was holding up an entire island also contribute to this?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

TheWiggian said:


> Which isn't exclusive to it since AdvCoA had it before AdvCoC was even a thing. AdCoC had those haki tentacle trails but it's not exclusive to it either so it's extremely hard to depict which one it is when you see it.
> 
> I solely base AdvCoC being a boost of stats and own haki applications on Luffy and Zoro getting physically much stronger upon unlocking it and started to use massive armament emission barriers.
> 
> Which makes sense with Rayleighs explanation of Haoshoku haki.


I don't know about that because Big mom and Kaido who seem not to know about Emission Haki were somehow able to make barriers with AdvCoC same with Yamato. 

I believe it's advcoc


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

But I agree @Bash24 zoro wasn't able to contribute much at all to fighting a yonko despite going all out and using his best moves. It practically did nothing and isn't even a factor in kaidous gauntlet. Meanwhile kid and law were the majority of the equation in beating big mom.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> But I agree @Bash24 zoro wasn't able to contribute much at all to fighting a yonko despite going all out and using his best moves. It practically did nothing and isn't even a factor in kaidous gauntlet. Meanwhile kid and law were the majority of the equation in beating big mom.


According to the swordmunchers paper cut>Internal destruction and an attack that harmed big mom badly.


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> According to the swordmunchers paper cut>Internal destruction and an attack that harmed big mom badly.


Unfortunately even when pushing their agenda the legion when looking at the bigger picture doesn't even have zoro registering on the yonko stage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> But I agree @Bash24 zoro wasn't able to contribute much at all to fighting a yonko despite going all out and using his best moves. It practically did nothing and isn't even a factor in kaidous gauntlet. Meanwhile kid and law were the majority of the equation in beating big mom.


So you think Luffy solo fresh Kaido from start to end? Cuz Zoro’s attack ranks 2nd in terms of damage after Luffy’s.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> So you think Luffy solo fresh Kaido from start to end? Cuz Zoro’s attack ranks 2nd in terms of damage after Luffy’s.


That papercut scar is nothing compared to the internal destrution caused by Killer and Law.


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> That papercut scar is nothing compared to the internal destrution caused by Killer and Law.


Not enough blood.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> Not enough blood.


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


>


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> So you think Luffy solo fresh Kaido from start to end? Cuz Zoro’s attack ranks 2nd in terms of damage after Luffy’s.


I never said the first part. In fact I argued that he couldn't. Bash24 was the one who argued he could.


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## Bash24 (Jan 4, 2023)

@Incognitos Yes I think luffy would beat kaido again if he was fresh. The results wouldnt change. That final exchange is all we needed to see. Luffy overpowered kaidos best attack and knocked him out. That's what it would come down to.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> So you think Luffy solo fresh Kaido from start to end? Cuz Zoro’s attack ranks 2nd in terms of damage after Luffy’s.


Proof it hurt more than yamatos

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

Bash24 said:


> @Incognitos Yes I think luffy would beat kaido again if he was fresh. The results wouldnt change. That final exchange is all we needed to see. Luffy overpowered kaidos best attack and knocked him out. That's what it would come down to.


Glad we agree that zoro was inconsequential in the fight against kaidou.


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> Proof it hurt more than yamatos


More blood


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> More blood


Kiku AP is greater than g5 luffy?


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## ShadoLord (Jan 4, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Kiku AP is greater than g5 luffy?


luffy made him cough more blood


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## Incognitos (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> luffy made him cough more blood


There were attacks from luffy that didn't make kaidou cough blood or bleed. Are those > yc4 kiku?


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> Zoro can boss around Law to get him to teleport and get a beer for him at the deli.
> 
> lets not kid ourselves here
> 
> ...


Touché, I can't come back from that

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bash24 (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Glad we agree that zoro was inconsequential in the fight against kaidou.


yep pretty much. None of the RT5 played any meaningful role in beating Kaido. Not the scabbards and not Yamato. It's was all Luffy.

Zoro and Law show cased they can hurt Kaido with moderate effort without the need of AdvCoC or awakening. Mid's portrayal on the rooftop was shit and even worse his right hand man was able to damage kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

Bash24 said:


> yep pretty much. None of the RT5 played any meaningful role in the downfall of Kaido. Not the scabbards and not Yamato. It's was all Luffy.
> 
> Zoro and Law show cased they can hurt Kaido with moderate effort without the need of AdvCoC or awakening. Mid's portrayal on the rooftop was shit and even worse his right hand man was able to damage kaido.


Kids fight was always with BM on the Rooftop. He's the one who was in charge of getting her off. He set the bait for the plan to work, he was able to do half the work while zoro and law each did a quarter of it. Saying kids portrayal was shit with the Rooftop is like saying zoros portrayal was shit with his fight with big mom.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Germa 66 (Jan 5, 2023)

Zoro is clearly better and like others have mentioned nobody voting Kid can even post an actual argument to how he wins

“hurr durr Luffy rival”

That little awakening that he exhausted using on Big Mom just twice won’t do a thing to Zoro someone’s who’s constantly leaking out even more haki than she is and his Armament is good enough to withstand attacks stronger that what Kid can dish out

At best he catches Zoro offguard once with his awakened attack, but from there you will see Zoro power through with an overwhelming King of Hell Asura. Kid could only dream of fighting with Kaido, he had to sneak attack slow ass Linlin throughout his battle

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Disagree 2


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## Bash24 (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Kids fight was always with BM on the Rooftop. He's the one who was in charge of getting her off. He set the bait for the plan to work, he was able to do half the work while zoro and law each did a quarter of it. Saying kids portrayal was shit with the Rooftop is like saying zoros portrayal was shit with his fight with big mom.



That's incorrect. The rt5 had their attention focused on Kaido the entire time not BM. She was cherry picking who to attack while they were landing attacks on him.

They decided to split because they couldn't beat two yonko working as a team.

Mid was the only one who couldn't harm Kaido. I think we need to let that sink in a little bit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

Bash24 said:


> That's incorrect. The rt5 had their attention focused on Kaido the entire time not BM. She was cherry picking who to attack while they were landing attacks on him.
> 
> They decided to split because they couldn't deal with two yonko working as a team.
> 
> Mid was the only one who couldn't harm Kaido. I think we need to let that sink in a little bit.


There was a period that was true. And at that period zoro didn't do anything more impressive than Kid. 

And who was the one who was determined to be enough to handle a yonko? Was it zoro? Law? No kid and killer, while luffy, zoro, and law stayed up top with kaidou. 

And his punk vice harmed kaidou.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bash24 (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> There was a period that was true. And at that period zoro didn't do anything more impressive than Kid.


That period started with Luffy showing up on the rt and ended with hakai. They only started targeting BM after that hakai moment.

Zoro cut Kaido twice and launched attacks that forced him to dodge when he normally prefers to just tank.

Mid was just tickling Kaido in comparison. How can you say Mid was just as impressive?


Incognitos said:


> And who was the one who was determined to be enough to handle a yonko? Was it zoro? Law? No kid and killer, while luffy, zoro, and law stayed up top with kaidou.


All of them were complaining about facing two yonko so Mid took it upon himself to separate BM with help from Zoro, Law and Killer.

Despite his cockiness he still didn't have any realistic chance of beating any yonko.


Incognitos said:


> And his punk vice harmed kaidou.


I don't believe that. It would have been explicitly shown like the other rt5 when they harmed kaido.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

Bash24 said:


> That period started with Luffy showing up on the rt and ended with hakai. They only started targeting BM after that hakai moment.
> 
> Zoro cut Kaido twice and launched attacks that forced him to dodge when he normally prefers to just tank.
> 
> ...


I won't be able to add images until a few days from now but reread 1002. Kaidous reaction to killers, luffys, and laws attack is almost the exact same. In kids case he yells in pain twice, in luffys not at all, in laws once and in killers once. I'm not sure where you're getting that his reaction was different from because it wasn't. 

Also remember that on the Rooftop zoro was using his strongest moves. Kid wasn't. Kid was playing the long game so he wouldn't pass out in the first round like luffy.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

A lot y’all don’t have a clear ‘Template’ for what makes someone strong in this series. So your tier lists are chaos based on either headcannon or what characters you like/prefer.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ShWanks (Jan 5, 2023)

Kid & Zoro won't catch-up till Epilogue or Eos if Kid gets bodied in Elbaf by Shanks

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Kidd doesn’t use ANY of the powerups that the strongest people in the world use. ANY whatsoever.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kidd doesn’t use ANY of the powerups that the strongest people in the world use. ANY whatsoever.


Awakening?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## bil02 (Jan 5, 2023)

Left this thread 2 days ago and it was no more than 15 posts,2 days later,it's a banging 3000 posts lol,leave it to zoro to generate forum discussion.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

bil02 said:


> Lseft this thread 2 days ago and it was no more than 15 posts,2 days later,it's a banging 3000 posts lol,leave it to zoro to generate forum discussion.


I believe you mean kid. A law vs zoro thread wouldn't get this much attention. A kid vs law would. A kid vs zoro would. One common factor

Reactions: Funny 1


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## bil02 (Jan 5, 2023)

Tbh i've always abstracted myself from discussing kid vs zoro threads because i had no idea who'd win.

I still think it goes either way as kid sure as hell has the matchup advantage but with coc coating barriers,i'm pretty sure if strong enough,they can counter df hax,just need to know if zoro's are powerful enough to overcome punk crash and assign.


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## bil02 (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> I believe you mean kid. A law vs zoro thread wouldn't get this much attention. A kid vs law would. A kid vs zoro would. One common factor


lol you've been around here long enough to know kidd is the last reason this thread goes over 3000 posts,only zoro or shanks/Mihawk/admirals/yonkou can generate so much traffic here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

bil02 said:


> Tbh i've always abstracted myself from discussing kid vs zoro threads because i had no idea who'd win.
> 
> I still think it goes either way as kid sure as hell has the matchup advantage but with coc coating barriers,i'm pretty sure if strong enough,they can counter df hax,just need to know if zoro's are powerful enough to overcome punk crash and assign.


If it works on BM it can work on zoro. It's pretty much accepted that if zoro isn't holding or loses grip of his swords then kid can use assign and make them stick to him. 

Kid has shown to be able to make big mom lose grip of her sword with no assistance. Zoro was shown to lose his swords on multiple occasions against king. 

If kid can do it to big mom it's safe to say he can do it to zoro.


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

bil02 said:


> lol you've been around here long enough to know kidd is the lqst reason this thread goes over 3000 posts,only zoro or shanks/Mihawk/admirals/yonkou can generate so much traffic here.


Not since me and beast have been on our crusade.

Reactions: Funny 1 | GODA 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Not since me and beast have been on our crusade.



About beast bro... And no it got nothing to do with me lol


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Awakening?


Nope. Certainly isn’t requirement among all of the strongest people. Roger, Shanks and Garp don’t have awakening but still reached the top.

What powers do you think it’s likely that all three are using?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Nope. Certainly isn’t requirement among all of the strongest people. Roger, Shanks and Garp don’t have awakening but still reached the top.
> 
> What powers do you think it’s likely that all three are using?



You forgot to add Rayleigh, Mihawk... Oh wait Mihawk is only there because he discovered the recipe for black paint while the others didn't.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Nope. Certainly isn’t requirement among all of the strongest people. Roger, Shanks and Garp don’t have awakening but still reached the top.
> 
> What powers do you think it’s likely that all three are using?


You didn't say that tho. 

Kidd doesn’t use ANY of the powerups that the strongest people in the world use. ANY whatsoever

Is luffy not one of the most powerful people in the world and does he not use awakening?


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

Akainu also applies.


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

In fact awakening is the powerup that allowed him to beat kaidou. Not advcoc.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> In fact awakening is the powerup that allowed him to beat kaidou. Not advcoc.


Not entirely true. Kaido actually put more emphasis on the haki himself. Very unlikely Luffy would’ve been able to win with just his awakening. It was the cherry on top that pushed Luffy over the edge in that fight, but not the predominant reason for his victory.

That said, Zoro isn’t exactly a master of CoC. It’s pretty egregious of the legion to try and put him alongside the strongest when he’s not even proficient enough in the ability to use it without overexerting himself to the point of quick exhaustion.


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## Ludi (Jan 5, 2023)

It seems Beast certainly is good at speedrunning FanVerse Banned%


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> You didn't say that tho.
> 
> Kidd doesn’t use ANY of the powerups that the strongest people in the world use. ANY whatsoever
> 
> Is luffy not one of the most powerful people in the world and does he not use awakening?


That’s exactly what I meant. When you make a list of all the strongest people dead or alive, it starts to become clear what powers are a requirement and which ones are not. Awakening isn’t a requirement.

The fact that Kidd and Law could combine their awakenings and take down Big Mom with a ton of luck and chance is cool. But if Kidd had awakened ACoC during the battle I think it’s likely that he would individually look to be on Yonkou Level. Kidd not having ACoA and ACoC speaks volumes to how strong I think he is.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 5, 2023)

Chip Skylark said:


> Not entirely true. Kaido actually put more emphasis on the haki himself. Very unlikely Luffy would’ve been able to win with just his awakening. It was the cherry on top that pushed Luffy over the edge in that fight, but not the predominant reason for his victory.
> 
> *That said, Zoro isn’t exactly a master of CoC.* It’s pretty egregious of the legion to try and put him alongside the strongest when he’s not even proficient enough in the ability to use it without overexerting himself to the point of quick exhaustion.



This is a pretty interesting point, someone who has no emphasis on CoC and didn't even knew he got it, unlocked the same power-up in the same arc as a CoC specialist and arguably even used it unconciously before the CoC specialist.

Zoro is not a master of AdvCoC haki, no one claimed that here, he just belongs to the handful of characters that is confirmed to wield it which are all world renowned at this point.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Empathy (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> In fact awakening is the powerup that allowed him to beat kaidou. Not advcoc.



He used both.


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## Fanta09 (Jan 5, 2023)

AdCoC gave luffy a far bigger buff than g5 did. It really just makes g5 more effective. And kaidos speech on haki is further proof on that.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Disagree 1


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## Incognitos (Jan 5, 2023)

Empathy said:


> He used both.


Yes but g5 was what put him over the edge. He was equal with kaidou without g5 and kaidou wasn't using everything in his toolbox then as he showed when he went fire dragon mode against g5.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

Fanta09 said:


> AdCoC gave luffy a far bigger buff than g5 did. It really just makes g5 more effective. And kaidos speech on haki is further proof on that.


Yeah because the thing that allowed him to keep up with kaido then get folded is above the thing that made him stronger by laughing, gave him multiple hax, and actually allowed him to defeat kaido with ryou haki.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

Empathy said:


> He used both.


He used awakening far more and hardly even used acoc.


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## fenaker (Jan 5, 2023)

It was around 18 , now it's 25 probably my debate yesterday woke up some members


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Fanta09 said:


> AdCoC gave luffy a far bigger buff than g5 did. It really just makes g5 more effective. And kaidos speech on haki is further proof on that.


This is 100% correct.

People really want devil fruits to be superior to haki despite all evidence pointing to the contrary and I’m unsure exactly why that is.




Unresponsive said:


> He used awakening far more and hardly even used acoc.


This is absolute madness.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShadoLord (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> This is 100% correct.
> 
> People really want devil fruits to be superior to haki despite all evidence pointing to the contrary and I’m unsure exactly why that is.


Wisdom king agendas

when kid gets advCoC, they’ll ditch and bash the shit out of Law.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> Wisdom king agendas
> 
> when kid gets advCoC, they’ll ditch and bash the shit out of Law.


I won't, awakenings>haki.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> I won't, awakenings>haki.


Haki > All


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Haki > All


Devil fruit>Haki


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Devil fruit>Haki


No, fruits are largely irrelevant in the fact of Haki and training.


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## Steven (Jan 5, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Kid was left speechless when injured Zoro stopped Hakai.


Zorro stopping Hakai was nothing but a outlier

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## MrPopo (Jan 5, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Kid was left speechless when injured Zoro stopped Hakai.


Big mom and Kaido were speechless when Luffy damaged Kaido with the red roc

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Steven (Jan 5, 2023)

OT: Kidd was stronger.

Zorro was left with a YC1 while Kidd fought a Yonkou

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Steven said:


> Zorro stopping Hakai was nothing but a outlier


Was him scarring Kaido also an outlier? And then mastering ACoC & ACoA?

Let’s use our thinking caps: ACoC and ACoA are the MAIN combat foundation of every single one of the strongest pirates in the series. Only in the case of Zoro should we believe that it doesn’t matter for some reason.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Was him scarring Kaido also an outlier? And then mastering ACoC & ACoA?
> 
> Let’s use our thinking caps: ACoC and ACoA are the MAIN combat foundation of every single one of the strongest pirates in the series. Only in the case of Zoro should we believe that it doesn’t matter for some reason.


Did he have ACoA...


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## Steven (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Was him scarring Kaido also an outlier?


Nobody cared about that papercut,not even Kaido himself


MartyMcFly1 said:


> And then mastering ACoC & ACoA?


Zorro can use both of this things for like 2 minutes.Top-Tiers can spam that shit for days


MartyMcFly1 said:


> ACoC and ACoA are the MAIN combat foundation of every single one of the strongest pirates in the series.



DF>Haki
Kaidos strongest attack was his Magmadragon Susanoo,made via his DF


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## Pimp of Pimps (Jan 5, 2023)

For something to be an outlier, a characters feats and portrayal afterwards have to point towards that feat being something he'd be unable to do again. Not the case here.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Steven said:


> Nobody cared about that papercut,not even Kaido himself
> 
> Zorro can use both of this things for like 2 minutes.Top-Tiers can spam that shit for days
> 
> ...


Kaido screamed in pain, complimented Zoro and then lamented that he wouldn’t join him…but he “didn’t care” cause of agenda.

Kaido fought Luffy prior to awakening and after he awakened and his opinion was still that Haki>Devil fruits. Luffy didn’t start stomping Kaido when he awakened, it looked very much the same as before.

If Zoro didn’t have a time limit, would you put him above Law and Kidd?

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Empathy (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> He used awakening far more and hardly even used acoc.



That’s not true at all. Kaidou specifically said that G5 Luffy was overflowing with aCoC and aCoA.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Empathy (Jan 5, 2023)

Incognitos said:


> Yes but g5 was what put him over the edge. He was equal with kaidou without g5 and kaidou wasn't using everything in his toolbox then as he showed when he went fire dragon mode against g5.



Luffy wouldn’t have won without using aCoC + G5, so it’s wrong to say one was more integral than the other. Comparing Luffy’s awakening to anybody else’s is a moot point anyway, since Luffy’s awakening is legendary god being reincarnated and it of course is more special than any other regular DF awakening.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

Empathy said:


> That’s not true at all. Kaidou specifically said that G5 Luffy was overflowing with aCoC and aCoA.


Where, he hardly used any acoc attacks.


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## ShadoLord (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Where, he hardly used any acoc attacks.


Just cuz his awakening whitened everything doesn’t mean he’s not using black haki

Kaido said he was armored with both coc and coa.


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## Empathy (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Where, he hardly used any acoc attacks.



You need to re-read the fight. Almost every attack was overflowing with aCoC. Luffy was knocking people out on the floors below just from being passively exposed to it.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> Just cuz his awakening whitened everything doesn’t mean he’s not using black haki
> 
> Kaido said he was armored with both coc and coa.


Bro whatKaido says that when he get's punched in the face and like I previously said he hardly used any acoc or haki attacks.


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## ShadoLord (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Bro whatKaido says that when he get's punched in the face and like I previously said he hardly used any acoc or haki attacks.


Did you just respond to me with the same thing I originally quoted you for


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

Empathy said:


> You need to re-read the fight. Almost every attack was overflowing with aCoC. Luffy was knocking people out on the floors below just from being passively exposed to it.


1044 he reflects an attack, sumo slams kaido, and plays with him.
1045-Punches him only once with acoa and acoc
1046-Punches him 4 times
1047-Lightning and goes for a named knee attack but get's hit
1048-1050 only one big punch

He only used acoc 6 times while the entirety of the fight was luffy either playing with kaido, messing around, or using wrestling moves


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> Did you just respond to me with the same thing I originally quoted you for


yes


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## ShadoLord (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> yes


Well, Empathy explained it. I shan’t bother with this.


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## Empathy (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> 1044 he reflects an attack, sumo slams kaido, and plays with him.
> 1045-Punches him only once with acoa and acoc
> 1046-Punches him 4 times
> 1047-Lightning and goes for a named knee attack but get's hit
> ...



The awakened aCoC attacks are what put Kaidou in the first place.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

ShadoLord said:


> Well, Empathy explained it. I shan’t bother with this.


He said almost every attack was using acoc, that was only 3 attacks...the other attacks didn't use it.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

Empathy said:


> The awakened aCoC attacks are what put Kaidou in the first place. G5 was knocking people out when not even attacking. ACoC was on at all times.


What's "awakened aCoC" attacks? He used it when he went to the form and you could see the lightning, but he wasn't using it the entirety of the fight because there was 0 lightning.


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

This Haki vs. DF debate feels premature when we haven't been given a good demonstration of how applicable it is for Zoro versus his actual combat capacity. I don't think simply possessing ACoC should make us give him the benefit of the doubt when Haki is heavily dependent on how capable one is at using it—both as a matter of its usage as a Haki-based skill and in the application of it through non-Haki techniques/attributes. It may highlight Zoro's potential/capacity to reach the Top Tiers but it doesn't in and of itself prove he's there without some actual evidence.


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## Empathy (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> What's "awakened aCoC" attacks? He used it when he went to the form and you could see the lightning, but he wasn't using it the entirety of the fight because there was 0 lightning.



I’m not going to post every single example of black lightning surrounding Luffy or people getting knocked out from being passively exposed even when Luffy wasn’t attacking. There are too many numerous examples to post. Kaidou says that Luffy is constantly coated in it. It’s on at all times and was used to deliver the finishing blows to Kaidou. There’s no point in comparing Luffy’s awakening to Kid’s anyway, as Luffy is the reincarnation of a god and Kid’s is just a regular DF awakening like Doflamingo, or anybody else’s.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

Empathy said:


> I’m not going to post every single example of black lightning surrounding Luffy or people getting knocked out from being passively exposed even when Luffy wasn’t attacking. There are too many numerous examples to post. Kaidou says that Luffy is constantly coated in it. It’s on at all times and was used to deliver the finishing blows to Kaidou. There’s no point in comparing Luffy’s awakening to Kid’s anyway, as Luffy is the reincarnation of a god and Kid’s is just a regular DF awakening like Doflamingo, or anybody else’s.


That is false...you're only mentioning the few times he used it.  You don't have to post the panels, but if this were the case every single panel should be covered with aCoC being exerted out of his body just like what happened when he activated it.

Kaidou never said that...



Plus I wasn't talking about comparing their awakenings, I was talking about the fact that you claim he was using it at all times. Luffy only used it for punching attacks and when he went into the form...he has no reason to coat himself in acoc at all times because it wouldn't save him from anything. He can only attack with it..and one last thing if he's exerting coc why doesn't he have black lightning every panel?


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## Steven (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kaido screamed in pain, complimented Zoro and then lamented that he wouldn’t join him…but he “didn’t care” cause of agenda.


Cool,the scar was never mentioned again.Law throwed stones at Kaido and the screamed.


MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kaido fought Luffy prior to awakening and after he awakened and his opinion was still that Haki>Devil fruits. Luffy didn’t start stomping Kaido when he awakened, it looked very much the same as before.


God-Punch is the strongest attack in the verse and its a DF stuff.Ruffys whole gear tech is his DF.Fuck,JoyBoy/G5 is some god stuff.Take away Ruffys DF and he loses all his amps,Kaido loses his scales,Hybridform and Dragonform


MartyMcFly1 said:


> If Zoro didn’t have a time limit, would you put him above Law and Kidd?


Law was and will always be stronger as Zorro,timelimit or not dose not change that

And Midd is a diehard counter.Take away Zorros swords and hes done


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> This Haki vs. DF debate feels premature when we haven't been given a good demonstration of how applicable it is for Zoro versus his actual combat capacity. I don't think simply possessing ACoC should make us give him the benefit of the doubt when Haki is heavily dependent on how capable one is at using it—both as a matter of its usage as a Haki-based skill and in the application of it through non-Haki techniques/attributes. It may highlight Zoro's potential/capacity to reach the Top Tiers but it doesn't in and of itself prove he's there without some actual evidence.


I disagree. There has been plenty of information given that should have long settled this debate. The knowledge that Shanks, Mihawk, Rayleigh and Roger don’t have devil fruits, also the fact that Kaido fought Luffy before ACoC and before Awaken should have settled it but here we are.




Steven said:


> Cool,the scar was never mentioned again.Law throwed stones at Kaido and the screamed.
> 
> God-Punch is the strongest attack in the verse and its a DF stuff.Ruffys whole gear tech is his DF.Fuck,JoyBoy/G5 is some god stuff.Take away Ruffys DF and he loses all his amps,Kaido loses his scales,Hybridform and Dragonform
> 
> ...


Why would the scar need to have been mentioned again? Kaido praised him and he left a permanent scar. The idea that it needs to be mentioned AgAiN is insane.

You don’t remember Luffy thinking about his haki knowledge while using Bajrang Gun? You don’t believe ACoC and ACoA had anything to do with why Bajrang Gun was as strong as it was? Insane.

Lawbros will definitely get a humbling soon and it is much needed tbh. You believe ONLY Law and Kidd don’t need haki feats or abilities. EVERY SINGLE OTHER TOP PIRATE uses ACoC and ACoA, but to support your head cannon, those abilities don’t matter when it comes to Kidd and Law. Even though they are the MOST IMPORTANT AND STRONGEST ABILITIES IN THE STORY. Whatever you say.


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> I disagree. There has been plenty of information given that should have long settled this debate. The knowledge that Shanks, Mihawk, Rayleigh and Roger don’t have devil fruits, also the fact that Kaido fought Luffy before ACoC and before Awaken should have settled it but here we are.


??? None of these characters are Zoro. It is supremely lazy powerscaling to point at their existence as if it is proof of Zoro's strength against a character with comparable (if not superior) feats and generally higher portrayal just because he shares an ability with them.

Katakuri might as well be one of those Top Tiers too since he shares FS with Kaido. Nevermind that the characters are inequal in almost every other way.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> ??? None of these characters are Zoro. It is supremely lazy powerscaling to point at their existence as if it is proof of Zoro's strength against a character with comparable (if not superior) feats and generally higher portrayal just because he shares an ability with them.
> 
> Katakuri might as well be one of those Top Tiers too since he shares FS with Kaido. Nevermind that the characters are inequal in almost every other way.


You don’t think noticing trends among every top pirate and then applying them to weaker pirates is an effective way to gauge Pirate levels?

There’s a reason why after watching Shanks & Whitebeard, Kaido & Big Mom and Roger & Whitebeard split the sky that we began expecting Luffy to be able to do the same.


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> You don’t think noticing trends among every top pirate and then applying them to weaker pirates is an effective way to gauge Pirate levels?
> 
> There’s a reason why after watching Shanks & Whitebeard, Kaido & Big Mom and Roger & Whitebeard split the sky that we began expecting Luffy to be able to do the same.


A trend is a trend. Evidence is evidence.

Zoro may share an ability with Top Tiers. Kid has proof of being able to meaningfully fight them (Law vs. BB further supports this). The latter _should_ outweigh the former in any reasonable analysis.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> A trend is a trend. Evidence is evidence.
> 
> Zoro may share an ability with Top Tiers. Kid has proof of being able to meaningfully fight them (Law vs. BB further supports this). The latter _should_ outweigh the former in any reasonable analysis.


Kidd and Law certainly don’t have evidence of being able to beat them one on one. Why is Zoro blocking Hakai and permanently scarring Kaido while gravely injured not evidence of the same thing?

The most meaningful ‘Yonkou Level feat’ we’ve been shown in the story is splitting the skies. There’s a lot of evidence that ACoC + ACoA is what causes that to happen. Zoro gained mastery over those abilities the last time we saw him fight and quickly dispatched of a ‘YC1’.

I expect that Zoro will be able to do that very soon. It wouldn’t surprise me if Kidd and Law never do that within the story.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jan 5, 2023)

Zoro has more yonkou level feat than Law and Kid combined.

Dragon Blaze power output
Ashura
Acoc and all of its derivatives. (Which goes from CQC, to king of hell techs)
Hakai block
Dragon twister

Vs
Punk Willie
Corno dio
Damn punked
Kid CQC Big mom

Law in particular suffers from anti-yonkou feat, in that he's explictly unable to compete with yonkou 1 v 1, even while using his ultimate tech. (Vs Bb)

Notice Zoro can match Kid and Law's feat, but his top of the line feat completely outshines the other two.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kidd and Law certainly don’t have evidence of being able to beat them one on one. Why is Zoro blocking Hakai and permanently scarring Kaido while gravely injured not evidence of the same thing?


Kid and Law have evidence of being able to meaningfully fight them. They both consistently dish out enough damage to hurt Big Mom and they both consistently continue fighting while taking severe damage from Big Mom. Zoro has evidence of neither.

One-off feats that heavily depend on the context in which they were performed do not measure up to an actual drawn-out (literally) battle.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> The most meaningful ‘Yonkou Level feat’ we’ve been shown in the story is splitting the skies. There’s a lot of evidence that ACoC + ACoA is what causes that to happen. Zoro gained mastery over those abilities the last time we saw him fight and quickly dispatched of a ‘YC1’.
> 
> I expect that Zoro will be able to do that very soon. It wouldn’t surprise me if Kidd and Law never do that within the story.


The most meaningful "Yonko Level feat" is _fighting a Yonko_. Which Zoro has never done. And, per his performance against King, likely could not do during Wano. He may have the AP to hurt them. He may have the endurance to survive some of their attacks. But no evidence supports the notion that he would be a realistic threat to a serious Yonko.

Whether Kid or Law ever replicate sky-splitting, we have direct evidence of them being realistic threats to a serious Yonko.


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## Fanta09 (Jan 5, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Yeah because the thing that allowed him to keep up with kaido then get folded is above the thing that made him stronger by laughing, gave him multiple hax, and actually allowed him to defeat kaido with ryou haki.


I’m not saying g5 didn’t help him that much, maybe I worded what I said a bit wrong. All I’m saying is that at the end of the day advCoC is a big part of what’s putting luffy in the top tier lineup.


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## Fanta09 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> This Haki vs. DF debate feels premature when we haven't been given a good demonstration of how applicable it is for Zoro versus his actual combat capacity. I don't think simply possessing ACoC should make us give him the benefit of the doubt when Haki is heavily dependent on how capable one is at using it—both as a matter of its usage as a Haki-based skill and in the application of it through non-Haki techniques/attributes. It may highlight Zoro's potential/capacity to reach the Top Tiers but it doesn't in and of itself prove he's there without some actual evidence.


I don’t think it’s much of a debate really when kaido, someone who has one of the strongest DF (and highest tier haki), agrees and confirms it’s more effective.


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

Fanta09 said:


> I don’t think it’s much of a debate really when kaido, someone who has one of the strongest DF (and highest tier haki), agrees and confirms it’s more effective.


I wasn't talking about Haki vs. DF as a concept; that was only as a reference to the conversation.

My post was about Zoro. And applicable evidence of his usage of the aforementioned Haki.

I don't think that's settled at all, considering we're on the 14th page here.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Fanta09 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> I wasn't talking about Haki vs. DF as a concept; that was only as a reference to the conversation.
> 
> My post was about Zoro. And applicable evidence of his usage of the aforementioned Haki.
> 
> I don't think that's settled at all, considering we're on the 14th page here.


Ah my bad

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Eustathios (Jan 5, 2023)

The problem is people downplay Zoro because he's "just" a FM. He could very well be a Supernova captain on his own and be one of the strongest ones at that. If he had his own crew, people would be much more inclined to rate him higher than he currently is.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> Kid and Law have evidence of being able to meaningfully fight them. They both consistently dish out enough damage to hurt Big Mom and they both consistently continue fighting while taking severe damage from Big Mom. Zoro has evidence of neither.
> 
> One-off feats that heavily depend on the context in which they were performed do not measure up to an actual drawn-out (literally) battle.
> 
> ...


Did you forget the portion of the story where Zoro, Law and Kidd were all fighting the Yonkou at the same time and Zoro actually had a better performance than either of the other two? He had both of their jaws on the ground prior to his ultimate powerup. It’s widely referred to as ‘Roof Piece’.

No. The most meaningful Yonkou feat is splitting the sky. It’s shorthand for confirmed ‘Yonkou Level’.

Your last paragraph is hilarious. People call us the legion, but will actually COMPLETELY IGNORE any and every feat that goes against their desire to downplay Zoro. Zoro _*DID*_ fight the Yonkou, what are you saying? In fact, he protected everyone on the roof from the Yonkou and still had a better performance than the rest.

Reactions: Like 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 5, 2023)

G5 putting Luffy over the top isn’t evidence that awakening>acoc. At most it’s G5>acoc and G5 is special amongst awakening anyway.


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Did you forget the portion of the story where Zoro, Law and Kidd were all fighting the Yonkou at the same time and Zoro actually had a better performance than either of the other two? He had both of their jaws on the ground prior to his ultimate powerup. It’s widely referred to as ‘Roof Piece’.


A large team battle isn't the place where anyone proved they were able to meaningfully fight a serious Yonko. It's pretty much explicitly pointed out that Luffy wants to fight Kaido alone in order to prove that.

Zoro's performance was impressive but is often overrated. His Flying Dragon Blaze was casually dodged by Kaido, blocking Hakai would have killed him without Law, and his Asura was ultimately irrelevant to Kaido beyond proving his high AP. Without the context of all the other contributions by others on the rooftop, Zoro didn't accomplish much.

Law and Kid meanwhile performed to par while on the rooftop and then went to prove themselves further by facing Big Mom. While Zoro was relegated to fighting King in a difficult battle—the same King who is completely outmatch by Greenbull, who himself is outmatched by Kaido and Big Mom.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> No. The most meaningful Yonkou feat is splitting the sky. It’s shorthand for confirmed ‘Yonkou Level’.


No. The most meaningful Yonko feat is fighting a Yonko. Luffy was able to sky-split long before he was actually at Kaido's level. It was only through continued combat and Awakening that he actually proved he was "Yonko Level".



MartyMcFly1 said:


> Your last paragraph is hilarious. People call us the legion, but will actually COMPLETELY IGNORE any and every feat that goes against their desire to downplay Zoro. Zoro _*DID*_ fight the Yonkou, what are you saying? In fact, he protected everyone on the roof from the Yonkou and still had a better performance than the rest.


Zoro exclusively performed in a team battle wherein he was pretty much never the actual target for their attacks (barring AoEs like Hakai and Indra). Asura, the only real case where he was facing a Kaido who was also facing him, was completely dismissed by Kaido moments after. Which is perfectly in line with the idea that he would go on to have a difficult battle with King. And also makes sense in the context of Luffy also being able to hurt Kaido but being completely outclassed for the majority of their fight.

In a serious battle, Zoro wasn't a realistic threat.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> A large team battle isn't the place where anyone proved they were able to meaningfully fight a serious Yonko. It's pretty much explicitly pointed out that Luffy wants to fight Kaido alone in order to prove that.
> 
> Zoro's performance was impressive but is often overrated. His Flying Dragon Blaze was casually dodged by Kaido, blocking Hakai would have killed him without Law, and his Asura was ultimately irrelevant to Kaido beyond proving his high AP. Without the context of all the other contributions by others on the rooftop, Zoro didn't accomplish much.
> 
> ...


There’s a lot to unpack here. So a team battle means nothing, but Law and Kidd who won in a team battle does mean something because…what?

Kaidos flying dragon blaze was dodged by Kaido out of necessity. He was willing to tank the attack until Big Mom warned him against it. She didn’t warn Kaido to dodge any of Kidd or Laws attacks.

Zoro was injured saving Kidd and Law. Once Zoro got ACoC, he defeated King in one chapter. I personally consider being able to quickly/easily defeat a YC1 a Yonkou level feat or close to it.

You keep saying that being able to fight a Yonkou is a Yonkou level feat, but Zoro was able to directly overpower and even permanently damage one (while injured). Splitting the sky is a much better metric because we’ve seen every Yonkou do this aside from Blackbeard (and he probably will soon). The first time we ever saw Yonkou in combat that is what we saw, that has been a metric as early as part 1 of the story, definitely not whatever you’re talking about.

A lot of Roof Piece was off paneled. Zoro saved everyone on the roof at least one time, and directly overpowered and scarred Kaido while injured. NOW he has full mastery over ACoC and ACoA and you’re trying to allege that he couldn’t fight a Yonkou. Absurd. He’s already done it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> There’s a lot to unpack here. So a team battle means nothing, but Law and Kidd who won in a team battle does mean something because…what?


A 5v2 where the Yonko are mostly fooling around, taking hits on purpose, focusing on AoE attacks, explicitly underestimating their opponents, etc. isn't the same as a 2v1 where there's a meaningful back and forth between a serious Yonko and the combatants that are actually able to hurt her/keep fighting while taking direct hits from her.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kaidos flying dragon blaze was dodged by Kaido out of necessity. He was willing to tank the attack until Big Mom warned him against it. She didn’t warn Kaido to dodge any of Kidd or Laws attacks.


1. It doesn't matter whether the attack is dangerous if Zoro can't land it. Especially when Kaido didn't even make the effort to dodge until Big Mom warned him.

2. It might mean something that Law and Kid could actually consistently land their attacks at all, even on the rooftop.

3. Kid and Law didn't use their Awakenings, so they were obviously holding back in this situation.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> Zoro was injured saving Kidd and Law. Once Zoro got ACoC, he defeated King in one chapter. I personally consider being able to quickly/easily defeat a YC1 a Yonkou level feat or close to it.


Zoro also got healed. Zoro also unlocked the ability that is tailored to overcome King's gimmick (compared to the incompatibility it would have with someone like Katakuri). In every other way, King was a real threat to Zoro and potentially could've won anyways if he had just tried to outlast Zoro's small Haki reserves instead of senselessly doing a direct clash after Zoro proved he could actually hurt him.

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## Eustathios (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> A 5v2 where the Yonko are mostly fooling around, taking hits on purpose, focusing on AoE attacks, explicitly underestimating their opponents, etc. isn't the same as a 2v1 where there's a meaningful back and forth between a serious Yonko and the combatants that are actually able to hurt her/keep fighting while taking direct hits from her.
> 
> 
> 1. It doesn't matter whether the attack is dangerous if Zoro can't land it. Especially when Kaido didn't even make the effort to dodge until Big Mom warned him.
> ...


Kaido was entirely serious when he fought Zoro 1v1. He used Hybrid and tried to smash him, but got overpowered in the clash.


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Kaido was entirely serious when he fought Zoro 1v1. He used Hybrid and tried to smash him, but got overpowered in the clash.


I don't think that proves he was serious. He was _in_ Hybrid already and nothing indicates he didn't go for a casual attack and was overpowered by Zoro's more serious one.

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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

Missed your edits:


MartyMcFly1 said:


> You keep saying that being able to fight a Yonkou is a Yonkou level feat, but Zoro was able to directly overpower and even permanently damage one (while injured). Splitting the sky is a much better metric because we’ve seen every Yonkou do this aside from Blackbeard (and he probably will soon). The first time we ever saw Yonkou in combat that is what we saw, that has been a metric as early as part 1 of the story, definitely not whatever you’re talking about.


Overpowering a single casual attack with your own high AP one =/= fighting a Yonko.

After all the damage Luffy put Kaido through where Kaido was still fully superior up until G5, what does Zoro's feat mean if he actually had to seriously fight a Kaido that wanted to kill him?



MartyMcFly1 said:


> You keep saying that being able to fight a Yonkou is a Yonkou level feat, but Zoro was able to directly overpower and even permanently damage one (while injured). Splitting the sky is a much better metric because we’ve seen every Yonkou do this aside from Blackbeard (and he probably will soon). The first time we ever saw Yonkou in combat that is what we saw, that has been a metric as early as part 1 of the story, definitely not whatever you’re talking about.


Sky-splitting is a feat of Haki. Even if it correlates, it is not a real measurement of strength in actual combat.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> A lot of Roof Piece was off paneled. Zoro saved everyone on the roof at least one time, and directly overpowered and scarred Kaido while injured. NOW he has full mastery over ACoC and ACoA and you’re trying to allege that he couldn’t fight a Yonkou. Absurd. He’s already done it.


Aside from his high AP, which Kaido proved he could casually dodge, Zoro was an afterthought to the Yonko. Him acting as a great support in that fight in no way equates to being able to meaningfully battle a Yonko that was seriously trying to kill him.

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## TrolonoaZoro (Jan 5, 2023)

5 vs 2 and yet Zoro got more clean hits on a yonkou by himself than Law in the entire fight Big mom fight.
5 vs 2 was also explicitly said to be a more difficult battle.  So it's not even a debate.
(This is evidenced by that fact that Law actually saved Big Mom as she was about to die by transporting Zoro)

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## Eustathios (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> I don't think that proves he was serious. He was _in_ Hybrid already and nothing indicates he didn't go for a casual attack and was overpowered by Zoro's more serious one.


Why would he hold back?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Why would he hold back?


Because, aside from the high AP to damage him (which Kaido proved he could tank regardless while fighting Luffy), Zoro is a nobody to him. Literally the only notable thing about him to Kaido was using Enma. 

Arguably his CoC as well but Kaido seemed to be commenting more broadly about the new generation versus Zoro himself being remarkable for it (see: other CoC users like Doflamingo who are trash to Kaido).


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## Eustathios (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> Because, aside from the high AP to damage him (which Kaido proved he could tank regardless while fighting Luffy), Zoro is a nobody to him. Literally the only notable thing about him to Kaido was using Enma.
> 
> Arguably his CoC as well but Kaido seemed to be commenting more broadly about the new generation versus Zoro himself being remarkable for it (see: other CoC users like Doflamingo who are trash to Kaido).


Kaido was willing to give even the Scabbards a good fight (albeit they didn't rise up to his expectations). Zoro was literally the last man standing from the new generation that came to topple him. The thought of a maniac like Kaido who goes full force against his own offspring suddenly deciding to step off the throttle just because it's Zoro he's against is really weird. My man was crying because he went too hard against Luffy the first time and threw him off the island. Kaido knows little moderation. Especially in what would be a war ending attack.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> A 5v2 where the Yonko are mostly fooling around, taking hits on purpose, focusing on AoE attacks, explicitly underestimating their opponents, etc. isn't the same as a 2v1 where there's a meaningful back and forth between a serious Yonko and the combatants that are actually able to hurt her/keep fighting while taking direct hits from her.
> 
> 
> 1. It doesn't matter whether the attack is dangerous if Zoro can't land it. Especially when Kaido didn't even make the effort to dodge until Big Mom warned him.
> ...


Why would you believe the Yonkou were ‘mostly fooling around’? Neither of their demeanors changed at all, they were using powerful attacks and Kaido was in hybrid form.

Kaido as a rule takes a bunch of attacks just because. It would have never occurred to him to dodge had Big Mom not warned himself the point is that Zoro even back then was capable of seriously harming a Yonkou.

Law and Kidd were landing attacks by distracting Big Mom and opening her up for attacks. One on one they both would have lost. Even with what they showed, they got extremely lucky that the bombs came into play.

Kidd and Law didn’t use their awakenings, and Zoro didn’t have full mastery of his ACoC until his fight with King. Even with knowledge of their awakenings, they were both extremely impressed with pre-ACoC mastery Zoro.

Zoro unlocked the ability that does more than simply ‘overcome King’s gimmick’. Zoro _mastered_ the ability that splits the heavens and creates Pirate Kings/Yonkou, the ability that had all of Marineford wary of Luffy’s potential, the ability that cements you as a king, that only a handful of the very strongest people can use, the ability that made Roger, Shanks, Kaido, Big Mom, Whitebeard and Rayleigh who they ultimately ended up becoming. Thinking ACoC is just some negligible, unimportant powerup goes against all the themes of the story and nearly everything we’ve been shown. Luffy and Zoro both learned it at the same time, against the same opponent. It’s no coincidence that the people they’re chasing after happen to be direct rivals. This is simple.

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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

Eustathios said:


> Kaido was willing to give even the Scabbards a good fight (albeit they didn't rise up to his expectations). Zoro was literally the last man standing from the new generation that came to topple him. The thought of a maniac like Kaido who goes full force against his own offspring suddenly deciding to step off the throttle just because it's Zoro he's against is really weird. My man was crying because he went too hard against Luffy the first time and threw him off the island. Kaido knows little moderation. Especially in what would be a war ending attack.


Kaido's whole schtick is that he _doesn't_ go full force against everyone. He tanks attacks unnecessarily and allows opponents to recover. If he's a maniac, it's of the masochistic kind.

But beyond that, this is all speculation on your question. I'd still argue based on the panels that nothing indicates it wasn't a casual attack from Kaido. I mean, moments afterward he Thunder Bagua's Zoro and Law both. Why wouldn't he have done that against Zoro's Asura if he was being serious? And Thunder Bagua itself is still basically his casual serious attack. Just raising his club above his head to smash Zoro doesn't rise to that level IMO.


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## Eustathios (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> Kaido's whole schtick is that he _doesn't_ go full force against everyone. He tanks attacks unnecessarily and allows opponents to recover. If he's a maniac, it's of the masochistic kind.


He went head on against the strongest attack he'd ever faced. He straight up tried to tank Oden's Togen Totsuka. Saying he's not going full force becase he chooses to tank attacks doesn't really work with Kaido. It's like saying Kata didn't go full force against Luffy because he didn't choose to tank attacks and instead dodged. Different fighters have different styles based on their strength.


Darkmaiar said:


> But beyond that, this is all speculation on your question. I'd still argue based on the panels that nothing indicates it wasn't a casual attack from Kaido. I mean, moments afterward he Thunder Bagua's Zoro and Law both. Why wouldn't he have done that against Zoro's Asura if he was being serious? And Thunder Bagua itself is still basically his casual serious attack. Just raising his club above his head to smash Zoro doesn't rise to that level IMO.


Someone using casual attacks doesn't mean they're not serious. It's shounen. Characters save their final attacks for last. Doesn't mean Kaido and Luffy were not serious when they threw hundreds of random attacks against each other for 95% of the fight simply bc they finished with the strongest attacks clashing.

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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Why would you believe the Yonkou were ‘mostly fooling around’? Neither of their demeanors changed at all, they were using powerful attacks and Kaido was in hybrid form.


Kaido initially told Linlin to stay out of it, highlighting his disregard for the RT5. Big Mom explicitly points out that they were initially underestimating them. They used one combination move to see how many would survive and never made an attempt to follow up on it or repeat it. They were laughing and saying they were having fun. These are not marks of characters that are seriously trying.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kaido as a rule takes a bunch of attacks just because. It would have never occurred to him to dodge had Big Mom not warned himself the point is that Zoro even back then was capable of seriously harming a Yonkou.


I never contested Zoro could hurt a Yonko. My contention is whether he could manage to meaningfully do so in serious combat. All signs point towards him not being able to. Let alone that both Big Mom and Kaido proved they could take that damage and keep going far beyond what Zoro's shown to output anyway.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> Law and Kidd were landing attacks by distracting Big Mom and opening her up for attacks. One on one they both would have lost. Even with what they showed, they got extremely lucky that the bombs came into play


Absolutely Big Mom is stronger than both. But she did seriously fight them. She did seriously attack them. They did seriously harm her in return. And this went on for an extended period of time.

Even after finally using their Awakenings, with both having suffered damage from the rooftop (+ Kid being damaged by Hawkins), they fought with their Awakenings against the powered up Big Mom offscreen while Sanji and Zoro fought Queen and King respectively, and still managed to use their "ultimate" moves (Kid twice) before finally succumbing to exhaustion.

Big Mom being a durability monster doesn't disqualify the clear portrayal that they were serious threats to her with their capacity to damage and to stay in combat while taking damage. Zoro doesn't match up.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kidd and Law didn’t use their awakenings, and Zoro didn’t have full mastery of his ACoC until his fight with King. Even with knowledge of their awakenings, they were both extremely impressed with pre-ACoC mastery Zoro.


And I'm sure Zoro would be impressed by their Awakenings and their damage output and their ability to sustain damage. Them being impressed doesn't really mean anything.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> Zoro unlocked the ability that does more than simply ‘overcome King’s gimmick’.


The point is that, outside of that ability allowing him to actually hurt King, in most other metrics they were still pretty evenly matched. King was still competitive in speed and endurance. ACoC allowed him to overcome King's biggest advantage (durability) but it didn't magically make him 10x stronger like a Kaio-ken.



MartyMcFly1 said:


> Zoro _mastered_ the ability that splits the heavens and creates Pirate Kings/Yonkou, the ability that had all of Marineford wary of Luffy’s potential, the ability that cements you as a king, that only a handful of the very strongest people can use, the ability that made Roger, Shanks, Kaido, Big Mom, Whitebeard and Rayleigh who they ultimately ended up becoming. Thinking ACoC is just some negligible, unimportant powerup goes against all the themes of the story and nearly everything we’ve been shown. Luffy and Zoro both learned it at the same time, against the same opponent. It’s no coincidence that the people they’re chasing after happen to be direct rivals. This is simple.


Great. Show me some evidence of Zoro using it meaningfully in Top Tier combat. Until you can, he's still lagging behind Kid and Law actually meaningfully fighting Big Mom.



Eustathios said:


> He went head on against the strongest attack he'd ever faced. He straight up tried to tank Oden's Togen Totsuka. Saying he's not going full force becase he chooses to tank attacks doesn't really work with Kaido. It's like saying Kata didn't go full force against Luffy because he didn't choose to tank attacks and instead dodged. Different fighters have different styles based on their strength.
> 
> Someone using casual attacks doesn't mean they're not serious. It's shounen. Characters save their final attacks for last. Doesn't mean Kaido and Luffy were not serious when they threw hundreds of random attacks against each other for 95% of the fight simply bc they finished with the strongest attacks clashing.


I'm not interested in a long semantical debate about what technically counts as serious.

In my eyes, a generic club strike from Kaido does not constitute an appreciable feat for Zoro to overcome with his own strongest move. Whether it's technically "serious" or not, knocking aside a generic swing just doesn't measure up to anything in serious combat. Especially when Thunder Bagua is itself basically Kaido's casual serious attack and he didn't deign to use it.

Just saying Zoro attacked a serious Kaido (per whatever definition you choose) doesn't outweigh what we actually see on panel. Which isn't much from Kaido.

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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> Great. Show me some evidence of Zoro using it meaningfully in Top Tier combat. Until you can, he's still lagging behind Kid and Law actually meaningfully fighting Big Mom.


So you want me to provide you with evidence that Zoro can meaningfully fight a Yonkou however I’m not allowed to reference instance of Zoro overpowering and permanently scarring the most durable character in the entire series (with a body full of broken bones)?

Fascinating.

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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> So you want me to provide you with evidence that Zoro can meaningfully fight a Yonkou however I’m not allowed to reference instance of Zoro overpowering and permanently scarring the most durable character in the entire series?
> 
> Fascinating.


If we have a different definition for "meaningfully fight", then I apologize. But it is what it is.

We saw what a meaningful fight with Kaido was with Luffy. And it's so far beyond the single instance of Zoro facing him 1 on 1 that I can't reasonably reconcile them.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> If we have a different definition for "meaningfully fight", then I apologize. But it is what it is.
> 
> We saw what a meaningful fight with Kaido was with Luffy. And it's so far beyond the single instance of Zoro facing him 1 on 1 that I can't reasonably reconcile them.


So Zoro can scar Kaido permanently, overpower/deflect him and several of his attacks, survive against him in a combat situation for an extended period of time, and even save several people from him multiple times, however he can’t meaningfully fight him? What sense does that make?

What you’re _actually_ saying is that you don’t care what evidence I present, if I can’t show you unseen manga panels of Zoro fighting Kaido for an extended period of time you’re comfortable outright dismissing any of Zoro’s feats. That’s fine, but be a bit more transparent about that if that’s the case.

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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> So Zoro can scar Kaido permanently, overpower/deflect him and several of his attacks, survive against him in a combat situation for an extended period of time, however he can’t meaningfully fight him? What sense does that make?
> 
> What you’re _actually_ saying is that you don’t care what evidence I present, if I can’t show you unseen manga panels of Zoro fighting Kaido for an extended period of time you’re comfortable outright dismissing any of Zoro’s feats. That’s fine, but be a bit more transparent about that if that’s the case.


If we have a different definition for "meaningfully fight", then I apologize. But it is what it is.

We saw what a meaningful fight with Kaido was with Luffy. And it's so far beyond the single instance of Zoro facing him 1 on 1 that I can't reasonably reconcile them.

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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darkmaiar said:


> If we have a different definition for "meaningfully fight", then I apologize. But it is what it is.
> 
> We saw what a meaningful fight with Kaido was with Luffy. And it's so far beyond the single instance of Zoro facing him 1 on 1 that I can't reasonably reconcile them.


If you can overpower and permanently scar someone while gravely injured, you can meaningfully fight them. Regardless of how you contort yourself to reject that.


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 5, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> If you can overpower and permanently scar someone while gravely injured, you can meaningfully fight them. Regardless of how you contort yourself to reject that.


We see that scene differently. There's nothing more to say about it.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jan 5, 2023)

This a man that thinks bypassing Big Mom's durability after an opening gets created by a different char as "meaningful"
Zoro's ability and power translates a 1000% better than a conditional ultimate tech.

Zoro merely uses his haki and strength to become a quantifiable threat to a yonkou. Explicitly said multiple times.
Law's ultimate tech gets slapped to the side by basic abilities of yonkou.

The disparity is gigantic.

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## God sl4yer (Jan 6, 2023)

Sablés said:


> Law and Kidd didn't put BM down. Plot bombs did.
> 
> @Beast need not reply.


yes after they did 95% of the work, and lets not forget hawkin's stab.


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## God sl4yer (Jan 6, 2023)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> So Zoro can scar Kaido permanently, overpower/deflect him and several of his attacks, survive against him in a combat situation for an extended period of time, and even save several people from him multiple times, however he can’t meaningfully fight him? What sense does that make?
> 
> What you’re _actually_ saying is that you don’t care what evidence I present, if I can’t show you unseen manga panels of Zoro fighting Kaido for an extended period of time you’re comfortable outright dismissing any of Zoro’s feats. That’s fine, but be a bit more transparent about that if that’s the case.


serious/FP Kaido >>>>> Kaido who wasn't going all out. Like there's 2 tier gap between a serious kaido and the one who zoro fought.

Kaido from G5 luffy fight > drunken kaido from G4 luffy fight > G2/G3 luffy >  kaido holding back (the one zoro fought)


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## verified (Jan 6, 2023)

God sl4yer said:


> Kaido from G5 luffy fight > drunken kaido from G4 luffy fight > G2/G3 luffy > kaido holding back (the one zoro fought)


completely headcanon

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## Six (Saturday at 1:40 AM)

>This poll
There is hope for the OL


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## God sl4yer (Saturday at 2:05 AM)

verified said:


> completely headcanon


thats how the fight went...

G2/3 luffy had the upper hand against kaido but then kaido was beating G4 and G5. How tf is this headcanon?


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## MartyMcFly1 (Saturday at 2:15 AM)

God sl4yer said:


> thats how the fight went...
> 
> G2/3 luffy had the upper hand against kaido but then kaido was beating G4 and G5. How tf is this headcanon?


It’s complete and utter headcannon. The most logical explanation is that ACoC gave Luffy a larger boost than G4 or G5.

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## God sl4yer (Saturday at 2:30 AM)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> It’s complete and utter headcannon. The most logical explanation is that ACoC gave Luffy a larger boost than G4 or G5.


uh what? I am talking about adCoC G2/3 luffy beating hybrid kaido but then advCoC G4 luffy losing to hybrid kaido. Its all in the manga, what headcanon? 

what are you even arguing here? kaido wasn't using FS and his strongest attacks against zoro and we saw what he can do once he does, why is this so hard to comprehend for you?


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## MartyMcFly1 (Saturday at 2:34 AM)

God sl4yer said:


> uh what? I am talking about adCoC G2/3 luffy beating hybrid kaido but then advCoC G4 luffy losing to hybrid kaido. Its all in the manga, what headcanon?
> 
> what are you even arguing here? kaido wasn't using FS and his strongest attacks against zoro and we saw what he can do once he does, why is this so hard to comprehend for you?


Everything you’ve said so far has been headcannon. I know exactly what you’re talking about, you’re confused why Luffy was doing so well against Kaido using only G2 and G3. Rather than conclude that ACoC makes any form of Luffy of threat, you come up with some crazy theory about how Kaido simply wasn’t trying, even though we see him use several of the same attacks against base Luffy that he used against G4 and G5 Luffy and Luffy handled them just fine.

How was Roger so strong without a G4 or G5? How about Garp? Or Shanks? Kaido himself said that haki surpasses all, but here you are, confused, because you don’t pay attention to the story.

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## God sl4yer (Saturday at 2:37 AM)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Everything you’ve said so far has been headcannon. I know exactly what you’re talking about, you’re confused why Luffy was doing so well against Kaido using only G2 and G3. Rather than conclude that ACoC makes any form of Luffy of threat, you come up with some crazy theory about how Kaido simply wasn’t trying, even though we see him use several of the same attacks against base Luffy that he used against G4 and G5 Luffy and Luffy handled them just fine.
> 
> How was Roger so strong without a G4 or G5? How about Garp? Or Shanks? Kaido himself said that haki surpasses all, but here you are, confused, because you don’t pay attention to the story.


bruh kaido literally started using his high end attacks and FS* after drinking*, once luffy was giving him serious trouble. and ater that kaido was ragdolling luffy..


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## MartyMcFly1 (Saturday at 2:47 AM)

God sl4yer said:


> bruh kaido literally started using his high end attacks and FS* after drinking*, once luffy was giving him serious trouble. and ater that kaido was ragdolling luffy..


It’s so strange to me that you’ll try to tell me how hard Kaido was trying, but outright dismiss the fact that Kaido fought each form of Luffy and at the very end of their fight mentioned that haki surpasses all.

Why do you think he said that? Was he lying? Did Roger secretly have a devil fruit and Kaido is mistaken about this? If there’s one character I expect to get something like that correct, it’s Kaido. And he’s right. The strongest thing about Kaido and Luffy isn’t their devil fruits, it’s their overwhelming haki.

Kidd hasn’t come close to mastering haki to the degree Zoro has. NOT. EVEN. CLOSE. And no matter how much you seethe and cope and misrepresent facts, haki is the strongest power. Zoro has mastery of the strongest power and Kidd does not. Simple.

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## God sl4yer (Saturday at 2:58 AM)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> It’s so strange to me that you’ll try to tell me how hard Kaido was trying, but outright dismiss the fact that Kaido fought each form of Luffy and at the very end of their fight mentioned that haki surpasses all.
> 
> Why do you think he said that? Was he lying? Did Roger secretly have a devil fruit and Kaido is mistaken about this? If there’s one character I expect to get something like that correct, it’s Kaido. And he’s right. The strongest thing about Kaido and Luffy isn’t their devil fruits, it’s their overwhelming haki.
> 
> Kidd hasn’t come close to mastering haki to the degree Zoro has. NOT. EVEN. CLOSE. And no matter how much you seethe and cope and misrepresent facts, haki is the strongest power. Zoro has mastery of the strongest power and Kidd does not. Simple.


lmao what? bruh thats not even my point. All this started when you said zoro fought a serious yonko 1v1 and managed to scar him and all i did was prove that kaido wasn't even serious/going all out.

And you are wrong. Yamato had adCoC but she isn't > current law, kidd or even admirals so having adCoC doesn't make you a top tier lmao...mastering it like yonko, rayleigh, oden etc makes you a top tier, zoro's adCoC isn't on that lvl yet. As for the topic right now I have kidd/law > zoro feats and portrayal wise, but eos zoro > law/kidd due to his full potential.

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## MartyMcFly1 (Saturday at 3:06 AM)

God sl4yer said:


> lmao what? bruh thats not even my point. All this started when you said zoro fought a serious yonko 1v1 and managed to scar him and all i did was prove that kaido wasn't even serious/going all out.
> 
> And you are wrong. Yamato had adCoC but she isn't > current law, kidd or even admirals so having adCoC doesn't make you a top tier lmao...mastering it like yonko, rayleigh, oden etc makes you a top tier, zoro's adCoC isn't on that lvl yet. As for the topic right now I have kidd/law > zoro feats and portrayal wise, but eos zoro > law/kidd due to his full potential.


Zoro got Kaido’s attention, engaged him one on one, overpowered him and permanently scarred him, all while gravely injured. To just say “Kaido wasn’t trying!!!” In order to downplay that is a joke. Kaido himself gave Zoro props for that moment.

Yamato didn’t permanently damage Kaido, but I also think it’s crazy to assert that Kidd and Law are somehow significantly above her. Also, Yamato can’t use ACoA. The strongest people in the world all use ACoA & ACoC. Kidd uses neither.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## God sl4yer (Saturday at 3:11 AM)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Zoro got Kaido’s attention, engaged him one on one, overpowered him and permanently scarred him, all while gravely injured. To just say “Kaido wasn’t trying!!!” In order to downplay that is a joke. Kaido himself gave Zoro props for that moment.


yes he did get kaido's attention because he used aCoC, but that doesn't mean he can fight FP yonko 1v1 for an extended period of time.

kaido wasn't using FS and higher end attacks, agree or disagree? 



MartyMcFly1 said:


> but I also think it’s crazy to assert that Kidd and Law are somehow significantly above her.


never said that


MartyMcFly1 said:


> Also, Yamato can’t use ACoA. The strongest people in the world all use ACoA & ACoC.


kaido can't use ACoA 


MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kidd uses neither.


doesn't matter....his awakening is far above average awakenings. Law is taking on a yonko right now 1v1 and looks good. I did state that zoro has the highest potential and will surpass law/kidd because of haki but right now i don't see him beating law or kidd.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Saturday at 3:23 AM)

God sl4yer said:


> yes he did get kaido's attention because he used aCoC, but that doesn't mean he can fight FP yonko 1v1 for an extended period of time.
> 
> kaido wasn't using FS and higher end attacks, agree or disagree?
> 
> ...


If you can overpower and permanently scar someone, why couldn’t you also fight them?? Zoro accidentally used ACoC against Kaido while gravely injured. You don’t think a fresh Zoro who has fully mastered ACoC could fight Kaido one on one? Why?

Zoro fought the Yonkou significantly more than he’s getting credit for. There’s a large gap between chapter 1003 and chapter 1008 where all the Rooftop 5 has accumulated more damage.

PRIOR to unlocking ACoC Zoro overpowered and cut Kaido. You’re basically trying to argue that ACoC is a meaningless powerup in Zoro’s hands.

Kaido can definitely use ACoA.


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## God sl4yer (Saturday at 3:30 AM)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> If you can overpower and permanently scar someone, why couldn’t you also fight them??


because kaido could have dodged it with FS or overpowered asura with TB/RTB.


MartyMcFly1 said:


> Zoro accidentally used ACoC against Kaido while gravely injured. You don’t think a fresh Zoro who has fully mastered ACoC could fight Kaido one on one? Why?


ofcourse he can


MartyMcFly1 said:


> Zoro fought the Yonkou significantly more than he’s getting credit for. There’s a large gap between chapter 1003 and chapter 1008 where all the Rooftop 5 has accumulated more damage.
> 
> PRIOR to unlocking ACoC Zoro overpowered and cut Kaido. You’re basically trying to argue that ACoC is a meaningless powerup in Zoro’s hands.


no i am not

all i am saying is that there are lvl to adCoC, luffy when first unlocked it he was nowhere near sky splitting lvl.


MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kaido can definitely use ACoA.


proof?

he never used it on panel


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## MartyMcFly1 (Saturday at 3:34 AM)

God sl4yer said:


> because kaido could have dodged it with FS or overpowered asura with TB/RTB.
> 
> ofcourse he can
> 
> ...


Kaido could have also had someone posted up shooting poison darts at everyone. This is coulda woulda shoulda. Kaido meets attacks head on with strength, that’s his entire character. This line of thinking is _very_ flawed. During Roof Piece, the only characters whose attacks Kaido decided to dodge was Luffy and Zoro.

“Of course he can”
Lmao then what are we even arguing about? You just agreed with me.

When Luffy first unlocked ACoC he was definitely near sky splitting level. Look at Luffy and Kaido’s clash in chapter 1011. That’s pretty damn close to a sky splitting clash.

Kaido mentioned Ryuo several times while on the rooftop and has a deep reverence for haki. He’s definitely using ACoA and ACoC. When Luffy clashed Bajrang Gun against Kaido, he discussed how Hyogoro taught him how to fight without touching opponents. The mechanism behind ACoA and ACoC is the same. That’s why Kaido is able to attack Luffy without touching him and also why Zoro was able to create a barrier between his swords and King’s sword in chapter 1035. The strongest people are using both simultaneously.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Informative 1


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## God sl4yer (Saturday at 3:59 AM)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kaido could have also had someone posted up shooting poison darts at everyone. This is coulda woulda shoulda. Kaido meets attacks head on with strength, that’s his entire character. This line of thinking is _very_ flawed. During Roof Piece, the only characters whose attacks Kaido decided to dodge was Luffy and Zoro.


1) kaido was dodging attacks from G4 luffy because they hurt and were much stronger than G2/3 luffy's attack so its not _very flawed_.

2) how does zoro scarring non-serious kaido with his strongest attack prove that he can take on FP kaido in a 1v1? RT joro can only use adCoC once and kaido can even block that with FS.


MartyMcFly1 said:


> “Of course he can”
> Lmao then what are we even arguing about? You just agreed with me.


well you said RT zoro can fight a FP yonko for an extended period of time and thats 100% bs.

current zoro is a different story tho.


MartyMcFly1 said:


> When Luffy first unlocked ACoC he was definitely near sky splitting level. Look at Luffy and Kaido’s clash in chapter 1011. That’s pretty damn close to a sky splitting clash.


thats not the only thing, luffy's adCoC was also getting weaker.


MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kaido mentioned Ryuo several times while on the rooftop and has a deep reverence for haki. He’s definitely using ACoA and ACoC. When Luffy clashed Bajrang Gun against Kaido, he discussed how Hyogoro taught him how to fight without touching opponents. The mechanism behind ACoA and ACoC is the same. That’s why Kaido is able to attack Luffy without touching him and also why Zoro was able to create a barrier between his swords and King’s sword in chapter 1035. The strongest people are using both simultaneously.


ok


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## TheWiggian (Saturday at 6:42 AM)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Kaido could have also had someone posted up shooting poison darts at everyone. This is coulda woulda shoulda. Kaido meets attacks head on with strength, that’s his entire character. This line of thinking is _very_ flawed. During Roof Piece, the only characters whose attacks Kaido decided to dodge was Luffy and Zoro.
> 
> “Of course he can”
> Lmao then what are we even arguing about? You just agreed with me.
> ...



I support that notion. Haki is supreme and this been established by Oda since the time skip. It is all about it and improving it to reach your goal since it directly translates to willpower. Here and there he threw in Awakening but to truly overcome your adversary you need guess what...?? 

This been shown to be quite real when he created a clear distinction in ability and fighting prowess between. Luffy and Law during Dressrosa and now it's the same with Kid. 

Kid wankers like to point out that he got this limitless willpower to overcome everything but where is it shown? 

He has no showings of achieving anything on his own, he bites off more than he can chew and usually eats an L afterwards. RHP, Snack, Big Mom.... 

He was really lucky that Law came to aid him and still his best feat was pushing her off the island with no hope of defeating in a pure brawl despite the help.

Reactions: Agree 3


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