# Kabuto vs Itachi



## joshhookway (Apr 19, 2013)

Restrictions: izanami, edo tensei
Location: Cave
Knowledge: Manga
SOM: IC
Distance: 30 M

Healthy Itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 19, 2013)

Itachi closes in with Susano'o, tanks hakugeki with Yata no Kagami, sends a couple of Magatama to overload sage sensing and blitzes Kabuto with Totsuka. End of match.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 19, 2013)

If you remove Izanami and Sasuke, then you only get Itachi vs Kabuto. Going by how things, went, I would have to say Kabuto wins very comfortably. This is because without Sasuke to save and provide massive firepower, I don't see Itachi doing as well.

For instance, dealing with Kidomaru's webs at the same time as Kimimaro's bones wouldn't be too easy. And getting caught in Tayuya's Genjutsu would be the end of Itachi given that there's no back up to get him out of it.
Though I do see Kabuto winning with Hakigeki coupled with Muki Tensei.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 19, 2013)

Lmao, Kabuto absolutely takes a dump on his head.

Genjutsu is pointless; Kabuto can fight with his eyes closed.

Amaterasu is pointless; Kabuto can shed his skin

Katon is pointless; Suiton trumps

Itachi's Suiton /= Kabuto's suiton

Susano'o is pointess; Kabuto's enhanced reflexes and perceptional ability allows him to dodge extremely fast projectiles, such as Sasuke's Susano'o arrow, meaning Totsuka is hopeless. Yata cannot help him, as techniques such as White rage go straight through, affecting his hearing. This, as well will be Itachi's downfall, as he has no defence to it.

Taijutsu is pointless; Kabuto has the hydrification technique, Itachi cannot land a hit. He's opening himself up for Kabuto's strikes.

Since the location is a cave as well, you just sealed Itachi's death. Muki tensei is extremely effective here, and Itachi is trapped like no other. He has no where to run. 

Kabuto, with literally low diff.


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## Empathy (Apr 19, 2013)

Kabuto can still summon Edo Nagato, who proved to be too much for Itachi to deal with on his own.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi closes in with Susano'o, tanks hakugeki with Yata no Kagami, sends a couple of Magatama to overload sage sensing and blitzes Kabuto with Totsuka. End of match.



An IC alive Itachi isn't going to spam ms.


Hakugeki completely doesn't even hit yata and I don't see how it would stop it as its light and obviously light can go through Susanoo. Not to mention it puts the user in so much pain that an alive Uchiha couldn't maintain his perfect form of Susanoo.

How do you overload sage sensing? Is there any proof.

Totsuka will do nothing. Kabuto gets hit by it, then liquefies and heals.... Useless


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## Luftwaffles (Apr 19, 2013)

Kabuto completely murderstomps.

There really isn't anyway he loses. Genjutsu? Ninjutsu? Susano'o?
Not even die-hard wankers are going to admit Itachi wins.

Kabuto would play Tayuya's flute against Itachi IC and then proceed to kill him.


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## Trojan (Apr 19, 2013)

I agree with most people here. Kabuto wins without any difficult IMO. 
There is nothing that Itachi can do here, @.@


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## Bonly (Apr 19, 2013)

I'd favor Kabuto more times then not. 

Kabuto has shown a Suiton and the ability to go underground to make Itachi's Katon's useless. Both of their Suitons should cancel each other out.

Kabuto can fight without eye sight which means most of Itachi's available genjutsu won't effect Kabuto. Kabuto also have enough speed to keep up with Itachi can thanks to his healing ability and slowly turn into water, Itachi's taijutsu nor other base jutsu is really going to put down Kabuto. Kabuto on the other hand has already got Itachi with his own genjutsu. 

We've already seen that Sasuke get hit by Ama and get out alright and since Kabuto has Orochi's powers, he can likely do the same. Tsukuyomi won't work. Kabuto can deal with Susanoo via Hakugeki which made Sasuke who had his Susanoo up, put it down. Kabuto also has MukiTensei as well as Kimi's jutsu to attack underneath Susanoo and get Itachi. Kabuto has a counter to most(if not all) of Itachi's arsenal as well as having an arsenal that can take out Itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 19, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> I agree with most people here. Kabuto wins without any difficult IMO.
> There is nothing that Itachi can do here, @.@



Its not an opinion, its a fact.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 19, 2013)

I thought it was pretty clear that Itachi wouldn't defeat Kabuto in a one-on-one.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 19, 2013)

Kabuto starts in base. He gets his face fucked by Amaterasu or Totsuka because Itachi knows he's able to be a threat if he lets him power up to SM or use Edo Tensei.

Though even in SM Kabuto's getting his face fucked by Amaterasu or Totsuka. He's not able to dodge that giant sword perfectly for an infinite amount of time, especially if Itachi lights him up with Amaterasu at any point. Hakugeki and Muki Tensei are his best attacks but the former can't shut Susanoo down while Itachi can react to the latter with Susanoo to defend himself. Tayuya's Genjutsu could be used in conjunction with a fast attack to try and kill Itachi before he breaks out, but Itachi can simply use Amaterasu or Susanoo to prevent Kabuto from using her effectively.

And the rest of Kabuto's Jutsu are useless. Itachi can basically just evade that shit and if he really has to he has Susanoo to save his ass.

Kabuto gets bent over and spanked. His only hope is Edo Nagato who should be able to laugh off Tsukuyomi and more than capable of pushing Itachi back until he dies of exhaustion from MS use.


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## Antos (Apr 19, 2013)

Kabuto with no diff funny It only took the power of 11 special ninja combined to take on 2  poor littile Uchiha's who didn't even use all there power and the 2 weren't permitted to kill him yet the 1 of the 2 made him cry and than patted his head like a child.


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## Luftwaffles (Apr 19, 2013)

Antos said:


> Kabuto with no diff funny It only took the power of 11 special ninja combined to take on 2  poor littile Uchiha's who didn't even use all there power and the 2 weren't permitted to kill him yet the 1 of the 2 made him cry and than patted his head like a child.


Doesn't matter. Funny it took an EMS user and an EDO MS user to take on a poor little snake


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## Trojan (Apr 19, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> Kabuto starts in base. He gets his face fucked by Amaterasu or Totsuka because Itachi knows he's able to be a threat if he lets him power up to SM or use Edo Tensei.
> 
> Though even in SM Kabuto's getting his face fucked by Amaterasu or Totsuka. He's not able to dodge that giant sword perfectly for an infinite amount of time, especially if Itachi lights him up with Amaterasu at any point. Hakugeki and Muki Tensei are his best attacks but the former can't shut Susanoo down while Itachi can react to the latter with Susanoo to defend himself. Tayuya's Genjutsu could be used in conjunction with a fast attack to try and kill Itachi before he breaks out, but Itachi can simply use Amaterasu or Susanoo to prevent Kabuto from using her effectively.
> 
> ...



Didn't Kabuto start in base in the Manga? 

the other stuff I/m pretty sure is just "FAN" opinion for his favorite.


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## Ari (Apr 19, 2013)

itachi-sama was the most powerful ninja in the narutoverse


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## ueharakk (Apr 19, 2013)

Make this edo itachi and he still probably loses to Kabuto.

Hakugeki and Tayuya's genjutsu are still hard counters to Itachi's arsenal.  It's a cave, so if he tries amaterasu, Kabuto senses it and hides out of the LOS behind stalagmites.  Or he could just let himself get hit and oral rebirth.  Tsukuyomi isn't landing with kabuto's eyes closed.

Totsuka gives Itachi a viable way of killing Kabuto, but the chances of him landing that on Kabuto are increadibly low as Kabuto has already dodged the faster susanoo arrows and he can shut down susanoo and force itachi to take time to level it up to its maximum.




Ari said:


> itachi-sama was the most powerful ninja in the narutoverse


...in part 1.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 20, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> An IC alive Itachi isn't going to spam ms.


says who ? 
Itachi is someone who always opts for the quickest win. He does what is necessary, he never holds back.



> Hakugeki completely doesn't even hit yata and I don't see how it would stop it as its light and obviously light can go through Susanoo. Not to mention it puts the user in so much pain that an alive Uchiha couldn't maintain his perfect form of Susanoo.


That was Sasuke, Itachi was able to use susano'O.



> How do you overload sage sensing? Is there any proof.


Yeah, he already did once : 



Itachi distracted Kabuto with magatama's, and Kabuto couldn't dodge the arrow.
It is easy to get around sage sensing if you can send attacks from multiple sources.




> Totsuka will do nothing. Kabuto gets hit by it, then liquefies and heals.... Useless


Totsuka seals whatever it pierces.
Kabuto can't instantly liquify like Suigetsu, even if he could, it wouldn't accomplish anything since he'd get sealed eitherway.



TorJaN said:


> Didn't Kabuto start in base in the Manga?
> 
> the other stuff I/m pretty sure is just "FAN" opinion for his favorite.



Yeah he did. But no one was trying to kill him back then.


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## Krippy (Apr 20, 2013)

If Kabuto starts in base, he gets murderstomped no doubt

but if he starts in SM then Itachi lacks a way to effective way to kill him

Edo Itachi would outlast him, but a "healthy Itachi" will eventually run out of stamina or fall for one of Kabuto's incapacitating techniques


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 20, 2013)

I don't see Kabuto dodging totsuka for a long period of time, avoiding the arrow, is easier as its one shot to avoid, but a sword that's constantly swinging at you is a lot harder to avoid, I see a bushin feint ending this match.


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## Antos (Apr 20, 2013)

Krippy said:


> If Kabuto starts in base, he gets murderstomped no doubt
> 
> but if he starts in SM then Itachi lacks a way to effective way to kill him
> 
> Edo Itachi would outlast him, but a "healthy Itachi" will eventually run out of stamina or fall for one of Kabuto's incapacitating techniques



He has techniques that can kill him its the fact that during there fight he wasn't allowed to kill him as we have seen Amaterasu burns faster than even Cerberus or edo Nagato aren't even able to regen while its burning and Amaterasu seems to always has the upper advantage to elements so even liquifying won't do any good. (we know in life if fire is hot enough it can produce enough heat even while under water it can evaporate the water around it and continue to burn guessing this is what happened when bee tried to put it out by falling into the water.).


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## crisler (Apr 20, 2013)

dunno what kabuto would do against amaterasu

but then again, i think amaterasu is the only way for itachi to win. it's a good tool, but probably the only tool.


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## joshhookway (Apr 20, 2013)

Don't forget Kabuto has oral rebirth and his white snake mode.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 21, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Didn't Kabuto start in base in the Manga?
> 
> the other stuff I/m pretty sure is just "FAN" opinion for his favorite.



And Itachi and Sasuke weren't able to use their killing Jutsu. Itachi outright stopped one of Sasuke's attacks. The whole time they were just buying time for Izanami to kick in and wreck Kabuto's shit.

Do you completely lack reading comprehension?


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## Veo (Apr 23, 2013)

Kabuto already proved to be perfectly suited to fight Uchihas. He'll take this low diff at most.


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## titantron91 (Apr 23, 2013)

If Kabuto starts at base, Itachi erases Kabuto with Amaterasu.

If Kabuto starts in Sage Mode, Itachi beats Kabuto with Totsuka (seals anything with soul ---> Kabuto has soul) since Kabuto will be arrogant enough to let himself get hit.

Itachi haters must have had multiple orgasms after reading most of the posts here.


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## Sans (Apr 23, 2013)

Kakashi warps both of them, along with the Juubi.


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## joshhookway (Apr 27, 2013)

titantron91 said:


> If Kabuto starts at base, Itachi erases Kabuto with Amaterasu.
> 
> If Kabuto starts in Sage Mode, Itachi beats Kabuto with Totsuka (seals anything with soul ---> Kabuto has soul) since Kabuto will be arrogant enough to let himself get hit.
> 
> Itachi haters must have had multiple orgasms after reading most of the posts here.



Kabuto is too fast for Amaterasu though. He can also liquidify or oral rebirth.


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## Trojan (Apr 27, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> And Itachi and Sasuke weren't able to use their killing Jutsu. Itachi outright stopped one of Sasuke's attacks. The whole time they were just buying time for Izanami to kick in and wreck Kabuto's shit.
> 
> Do you completely lack reading comprehension?



- Killing jutsu like what? and how it suppose to hit him? 
and by the way Kabuto wasn't trying to kill sasuke Either, and ITachi already and Edo
and he can't be killed. 

- no one ask you for your opinion in that matter!


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## Dr. White (Apr 27, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If you remove Izanami and Sasuke, then you only get Itachi vs Kabuto. Going by how things, went, I would have to say Kabuto wins very comfortably. This is because without Sasuke to save and provide massive firepower, I don't see Itachi doing as well.
> 
> For instance, dealing with Kidomaru's webs at the same time as Kimimaro's bones wouldn't be too easy. And getting caught in Tayuya's Genjutsu would be the end of Itachi given that there's no back up to get him out of it.
> Though I do see Kabuto winning with Hakigeki coupled with Muki Tensei.



Forgetting that the brothers weren't on the offensive the whole fight, and Kabuto was free to use jutsu the whole time. :Lebron 

Since Itachi will have killing intent here, he engages him like he did to set up Izanami(the only time in the fight Itachi was "attacking") in which he was able to clone feint him, and slice his ass. Kabuto's sage sensing didn't help him much, he gets the same treatment Killer Bee, and KCM Naruto got.

Itachi would most likely try and end this fight as quickly as possible pressing Kabuto, and using Ama to connect. Kabuto may be able to escape a but he can't keep oral rebirthing( he'll leave himself open for an inevitable Totsuka hit) and liquidizing doesn't help vs Ama as it will continue to burn undaunted. Kabuto would have a hard time hitting Itachi in Sage Mode, he has to actively mold the faces of each person he wants to utilize, considering Itachi has already shown he can near blitz Bee, and press KCM Naruto/Sage Kabuto himself, I don't see him successfully utilizing much of his DNa Mods(that aren't passive) especially since he will be concentrating on not getting hit with Ama, or sealed.

Nothing but Tayuya's genjutsu is effecting Itachi with Susano. The only difference would be that since Itachi has killing intent, he can just swing at Kabuto in Susano all day, and eventually hit with totsuka. Susano could literally near destroy the cave with Yagatama/sword slash combos, if ama has been used and is occupying space, the chances decline further of Kabuto escaping.

The only real problem Itachi would face is MS Drawback. Assuming Itachi is healthy he should be able to eclispe his Sasuke showing, which already had him showcasing his whole base arsenal, and all MS techniques for a significant time. I really don't see Itachi being brought to near death here, Id even say Sick Itachi would give Kabuto Hgh-extreme diff, and could win in some scenarios. 

I'm also 50/50 on whether or not Itachi would be OHKO'd by Tayuya's jutsu. Shikamaru was able to break it, and Tayuya's original version required she be in CS2(therefore utilizing a high amount of natural energy): despite this Shikamaru ( who has no noticeable genjutsu feats) was able to escape via Pain. Itachi should be able to pull a kurenai, or use the infamous Jiraiya method to escape. Since he is the king of genjutsu. 

Itachi wins High diff 8/10


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## rubberguy (Apr 28, 2013)

The match says sm kabuto vs itachi not kabuto vs itachi so obviously kabuto start in sage mode. Don't know why some ppl are using that as an excuse for itachi to win.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 28, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Forgetting that the brothers weren't on the offensive the whole fight, and Kabuto was free to use jutsu the whole time. :Lebron



That wans't a key factor in my post because Kabuto's insane regeneration cocktail renders that useless in conjunction with the rest of his augmentations. 
Sasuke is the brother I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt given that we've seen some insanely different quality of fighting when he is on the offensive. This thread, however, is about Itachi. A brother whose fought the same consistently, throughout. The only difference here is he can use Totsuka. However the only drawback to that is while he had that, Kabuto is now allowed to use the many methods to take out Itachi that he couldn't for the sole reason that Sasuke was there.

The rest of your post is Itachi centic without factoring how Kabuto would change, hence the "Itachi has killing intent" notion has very little meaning in my post. More so now that Kabuto needs to focus on one Uchiha, not two. This means that any form of detection, such as sage sensing will be even more effective now.


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## Dr. White (Apr 28, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That wans't a key factor in my post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ImSerious (Apr 28, 2013)

hitting the user hard enough


What more needs to be said really?


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## Dr. White (Apr 28, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> hitting the user hard enough
> 
> 
> What more needs to be said really?



hitting the user hard enough

What more needs to be said really?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> which seemed to have less space within and be less wide.
> 
> What more needs to be said really?



Isolating the statement doesn't help your overall point when we saw Sasuke bail Itachi out more times than Itachi bailed him out.



Dr. White said:


> -How does Kabuto's insane regen help him? If Kabuto gets caught by Ama his while body will be in flames, meaning that transfering puts him at risk of getting caught by the flames(since he has to exit the mouth), it also put him at risk of a follow up attack while he is vulnerable. His other regen won't help him as *Amaterasu burns for a week unless sealed*, and Kabuto doesn't have the sealing jutsu to stop it.


 
How does insane regeneration help... Ponder on that. 

Amaterasu is meaningless here when Sasuke used a jutsu Kabuto has to counter it. 
As Sasuke showed, and as Kabuto showed, you don't need to exit from the mouth. You just leave from any part of the body. 
Kabuto can also sense Amaterasu before it is used, as sensors can, so that can be used to Kabuto's advantage.



> -No you are not getting it. Itachi could not use offensive jutsu, because killing him meant edos forever. Kabuto was free to use offensive jutsu on Itachi(using kill moves vs Itachi would still "injure" Itachi and have a physical effect on him), and incapacive techniques on both brothers: this is the reason in which he could non chalantly showcase all his moveset. The brother had to fight in a way in which they had to set up a hax win. Edo Itachi was the first fight we saw where Itachi wasn't holding back due to being on auto pilot and fighting Nagato. He showed use he was capable of reading through nearly every attack thrown at him, and was on the offensive against Bee.



What you're not getting is Itachi's offensive jutsu are worthless. Confabulate as much as you wish, but you're only touching on a factor which had both brothers there. Especially the brother with far greater fire power (Sasuke), whilst clearly ignoring the fact the Sage in that fight deliberately pulled back. That was done for the sole reason of keeping the more troublesome brother safe.
Sasuke's not here, and Kabuto has no reason to do anything to protect Itachi. You're citing fights which diminish your point, the only thing that showed me is that when super offensive guys (like Bee) get their gear up, as well as while guys like KCM Naruto are starting to... he runs. The Nagato case even more so as it is somewhat comparable to Kabuto's case: Itachi couldn't handle a hindered foe without stronger back up. Itachi is now fighting an unhindered foe with no back up. 



> -Like? He was free to use his whole moveset the first time. Kabuto's literal only restriction was not killing Sasuke. His complete Rikudo like control helped him around this. He used White Rage to virbrate Sauce's eardrums, Cut at Itachi with his scalpel on multiple occassions, threatened with Bone Forest/Web combo, hypnotized them both, used Mukai Tensei perfectly around Sasuke(Kabuto noted that Itachi guarding Sasuke was in vain as he could control where the Stalagmites went:hence why Sasuke isn't near being pierced) how the hell did Kabuto not have the change to showcase offensive jutsu that: barring Itachi's edoness would kill him in a fight?



You're exaggerating the significance of Itahci's restriction whilst diminishing Kabuto's. Not harming the stronger fighter there was a massive restriction. In fact looking at all your cited moments... Remove Sasuke and you have even more times Kabuto could've killed Itachi.



> You say "focus" as if Kabuto was ever really threatened. From the get Itachi made it clear they wouldn't physically harm him, saving him from even shuriken, and scolding Sasuke for trying to Pin Kabuto's skull to the cave wall. Running around casting your moveset, with two people relying on a time lapsed, prepped genjutsu is hardly what I call threatened.



You made no relevance to the point I made at all. 
It is very obvious that Kabuto will fight a lot better when he's aiming to kill one Uchiha, and if he is only having to focus on one Uchiha. 

Obviously it'll be harder to focus on Itachi and another Uchiha, especially a crazy powerful one like Sasuke. In fact Kabuto did it quite well, but now that effectiveness will increase exponentially. 


Your point would be stronger if you focus more on this match (Kabuto vs Itachi) as opposed to trying to scrutinise the other fights e.g. the only Edo Itachi fights. Which doesn't help as healthy Itachi doesn't have limitless chakra.


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## narutoish (Apr 29, 2013)

itachi wasn't even going offensive agaisnt kabuto because he couldn't kill him, while kabuto could attack itachi with all the lethal moves since he was edo, also kabuto has nothing that can get through susano. It also depends on if kabuto knows about tostuka or not, because it could very well end the same way itachi vs oro ended.


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## Dr. White (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > Isolating the statement doesn't help your overall point when we saw Sasuke bail Itachi out more times than Itachi bailed him out.
> 
> 
> Really? So the statment is worthless and you are just going to gloss over the context of that fight which allowed Kabuto to perform as he did? Ok dude.
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

> It would help your arguments if you actually objectively analyzed characters you don't like, and the context around certain manga scenes, instead of blindly looking at panels and judging matchups from them. It was clear from the get that Kabuto needed his handicap to pose a threat, and had a coniving plan up his ass. Kishi flat out potrayed Itachi as the strongest one their schooling both of them talent wise, and being the reason for team Uchiha's arduous victory.



You cannot comment on objectivity if you're already making your mind up on who likes which character. 

You're saying Kabuto required a handicap to be a threat when in actual fact the handicap was... as the name suggests a hindrance. If anything Itachi needed it because Kabuto outright said he wouldn't do anything to harm Sasuke, even then Itachi was hit with attacks he wouldn't survive ITT. 

What objective analysis shows Itachi as the strongest? I ask for what _objective_ analysis because throughout the fight he was calling himself a failure and what not, even before. In fact if you want an objective take on it: Itachi wasn't fit to take on Kabuto alone hence he had back up stronger than himself. 
This considers Itachi's comments of needing comrades to do what can't be done alone (Itachi had a comrade and was repeatedly owned when he acted alone) and Kabuto's handicap. 



> You second point is moot as this is healthy Itachi.
> By feats Sick Itachi could use:
> -Amaterasu(2x, one long enough to burn fire itself, and the other long enough to nearly set the forest on fire, and then hit Sauce.)
> -Tsukuyomi
> ...



What on earth is this? This is pure speculation. All you did was say what Itachi can do when he's sick (which is no different to what he can do when he is healthy*). Then you come out with some unsupported assertion that he can double these feats?

*Unless you have a claim where anybody claimed Itachi's chakra levels were affected, then this point is just your speculation.



> Also fun fact of the day: Sick Itachi used more jutsu(and therefore chakra) then he did in any individual Edo Tensei fight, and maybe even counting both fights combined. Therefore bitching that Edo Itachi couldn't perform his Edo feats due to chakra constraint is pure B.S



Hardly an objective analysis on your point. Here's why: you forgot sick Itachi uses less MS jutsu and more (less taxing) base jutsu. Whilst failing to point out Itachi, as an Edo, used far more chakra taxing MS jutsu. 

There's no "bitching", just an accurate analysis that a healthy Itachi, whose chakra capacity is no different to his sick self, cannot replicate the feats of his infinite chakra counterpart.


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## Dr. White (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > You cannot comment on objectivity if you're already making your mind up on who likes which character.
> 
> 
> Yes I can, I have seen you post multiple time with pathos involved in your words against Itachi. Then I compared with other nuetral comments on other characters and it isn't the same. I can't prove it, but my guess isn't unevidenced. Anyway my point about you being bias against Itachi has nothing to do with the objectivty of my argument concerning this match up.
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Yes I can, I have seen you post multiple time with pathos involved in your words against Itachi. Then I compared with other nuetral comments on other characters and it isn't the same. I can't prove it, but my guess isn't unevidenced. Anyway my point about you being bias against Itachi has nothing to do with the objectivty of my argument concerning this match up.



In other words you simply don't like what a poster posts about Itachi. Well actually that assertion does have to do with your objectivity regarding Itachi with this match up: you felt the need to highlight it. 



> -In the position he was in at the start of the fight yes he would have been dead against both of them had Itachi joined in Sasuke's initial attack. In SM mode even he would not have been leisurely using his new moveset. The fight was set with the precedent that Itachi and Sasuke would be fighting to somehow end ET, not kill Kabuto. Kabuto from the door told Itachi(the smarter brother) that killing him wouldn't end ET. From this point on Itachi is not even going to risk hurting him. as he said he would genjutsu him. Kabuto had to resort to blinding himself because Itachi's genjutsu was that deadly.
> 
> So essentially we have Kabuto arrogantly waiving the fact that he can't be killed in front of Itachi's face: the minute he walked through the door( a clear sign that he quickly wanted to establish that, meaning he knew Itachi could potentially kill him), then after just uttering that phrase jizzing his snake senses to the temperate of Sasuke saying "Oh how my luck has turned". Kabuto, in base form, arrogant as hell, in front of 2 MS users is pleading how lucky he is after uttering the aformentioned precendent set by ET caster conditions....You take 2, add 2, and get 4.



Mostly speculation. Further you're not even analysing the match up in this thread. You're just highlighting how you _believe_ the fight could've gone if certain things were tweeked with little evidence to support it. 

The rest is interpretation which is irrelevant to this thread. Rather you're attempting to paraphrase what happened.



> Ok,
> -there is the preceding evidence I just gave that shows Kabuto acting inferior in telling Itachi from the get that he couldn't kill him to stop ET. If he wasn't concerned about Itachi and could dispatch him easy he wouldn't have told him that especially consideirng it be more beneficial from an enemies presepective that he be killed and have ET run on forever countercaddy to all of Itachi's hardwork. He also wouldn't consider Sasuke arriving "Lucky".
> -Sasuke was looking up to his Nii-chan the whole fight, and called him his vision of perfection. Kabuto himself mistook him for a sensor, and complimented him as being unique genius amongst the Uchiha, and particularly strong multiple times. Itachi completely outperformed Sasuke in the fight saving him from immediate capture in the fight, clone feinting Kabuto to set up izanami, and engaging him in CqC(with Sasuke's sword  ). moreover protecting him even when he was unaware of what was going on(ala Mukai Tensei/thinking up plan to get out of Genjutsu) it was clear that Itachi was still superior in battle efficiency and wisdom despite Sasuke having the better moveset.
> -Itachi also performed better than Kabuto, being able to keep his brother safe from capture and utltimately beating Kabuto without resorting to killing him, and in the end outsmarting him to gain the victory.
> ...



I saw your evidence and that evidence was questionable hence why you've not convinced me. 
I don't want, nor am I interested in your analysis of Kabuto vs the Uchiha bros because that analysis is more of "Itachi was really the strongest one there" whilst you're actually commenting very little on this actual match up. 

Your opinion of Itachi being the strongest guy in that fight isn't enough to imply the outcome on this match up. You've actually got to comment on this particular match, not discuss the details of one fight.

----

Lets just discuss the things with the actual match, not a manga fight which has long sailed with little reference to this match up.


> Healthy Itachi implies the lack of eye deterioration(built up from past use, not in the fight) and terminal disease are stricken from his character.



Eyesight never held Itachi back. Furthermore if you're going to comment on something as big as chakra, provide evidence that Itachi's chakra capacity was affected. Kishimoto highlights these things e.g. like he did when age affected Hiruzen's stamina and when he felt the need to repeatedly state and show Naruto's chakra levels were affected during this war.



> It was made evidently clear that Itachi was in piss poor, deathbed condition vs Sasuke, as pointed out by Tobi's testimony, and Zetsu's fight analysis. Healthy Itachi is much more akin to Edo Itachi just without the infinite(though much more than Sick Itachi) chakra, and regen.



In other words Edo Itachi with the limited stamina Itachi showed in his lifetime, which got a 2.5 out of 5 rating. Bringing in an objective analysis: in life Itachi always made sure to use less chakra draining moves and used the MS when he deemed it necessary. In other words his low chakra levels were being alluded to via his fighting style.


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## Dr. White (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > In other words you simply don't like what a poster posts about Itachi. Well actually that assertion does have to do with your objectivity regarding Itachi with this match up: you felt the need to highlight it.
> 
> 
> Lol no but nice attempt trying to sneak in that non chalant strawman. I was more or less highlighting your constant disdain for Itachi in mutiple threads, and subjective wording in your opinions on him as oppossed to other characters in different matchups showing me objective bias. That it why I am highlighting it as well.
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Apr 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> You are really gonna go down this route? The base sharingan itself requires taxing amounts of chakra and can't even be active all the time for an uchiha.You are telling me sharingan didn't tax pt.1 Kakashi's ability to use chakra/jutsu? MS taxes the user much more than this and Itachi's had it since he was 13: in pt. 1 after using Tsukuyomi once, Kisame told us that using the MS to much is chakra taxing.



Kakashi isn't a Uchiha so that's a moot point. Uchiha's can handle it while non-Uchiha's can't. And even then Kakashi can't deactivate it so yeah a Uchiha can keep it active all the time. And Kisame said it was dangerous to use. He never said it was chakra taxing.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> [
> Lol no but nice attempt trying to sneak in that non chalant strawman. I was more or less highlighting your constant disdain for Itachi in mutiple threads, and subjective wording in your opinions on him as oppossed to other characters in different matchups showing me objective bias. That it why I am highlighting it as well.



However this is getting off topic. Feel free to PM me about this if it interests you so much.



> Labels evidenced arguments "mostly speculations" yet fails to provide how so


 
It was self-explanatory. 
For example it involved heavy speculative ideas of certain statements and certain actions of a 2 on 1 fight. However I'm more interested in this fight, ITT. Any speculation should be geared towards this 1 on 1 fight.



> I already went over how Itachi wins this match up in my first post.



Then stick to that instead of attempting to re-interpret the fight Itachi had Sasuke's assistance with. I simply used aspects of that fight to discredit the idea that Itachi can take Kabuto. 



> Bullshit, you are completely pulling a red herring right now claiming I am talking about irrelevant topics. The point is Kabuto was using offensive jutsu to harm ITachi, and Itachi couldnd't do jackshit but defend and set up a mental winner. Despite this Itachi came out on top with support. I am simply telling you based off of Kabuto's performance, on how he would fair vs an Itachi who can fight.



Of course he was trying to take out Itachi. However Sasuke limited what offensive jutsu Kabuto could use and how he could use them. On top of that Kabuto's regeneration rendered all of base Itachi's jutsu useless; Kabuto's snake jutsu rendered Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu useless; Kabuto's Senjutsu helped him deal with two Susanoo perfectly. 

Here he has all that, minus the Sasuke limiter, to use on Kabuto. For these reasons I find it very unlikely to believe Itachi would win. More so as Itachi lacks the enhancements he had in that fight.




> You are really gonna go down this route? The base sharingan itself requires taxing amounts of chakra and can't even be active all the time for an uchiha.You are telling me sharingan didn't tax pt.1 Kakashi's ability to use chakra/jutsu? MS taxes the user much more than this and Itachi's had it since he was 13: in pt. 1 after using Tsukuyomi once, Kisame told us that using the MS to much is chakra taxing.
> 
> I guess claiming that being terminally ill affects one's health and in turn their chakra usage is speculation, if that is what you wanna label it.



It is a consistent thing with the author, if chakra is an issue he mentions it. He even did the same thing with Obito in regards to why he didn't use Bijuu powers and Rinnegan powers with his Pain Rikudou. 

In other words if Itachi's chakra was affected, then it would've been mentioned. Zetsu had a list of things that was wrong with Itachi in his battle with Sasuke, his chakra capacity was not among those things. 



> -That is as any Uchiha without somekind of power up would do. Sasuke was a dumbass and almost went blind in 3 days, yet you wouldn't consider him low on chakra would you? Itachi stretched his light out for 8 years buddy, all whilst being apart of a terrorist organization. Itachi got a 2.5 when he was 18 in pt. 1 already having MS for 5 years, and most likely being ill although no one truly knows when Itachi gained his illness.



We saw Sasuke's stats, quite noticeably he had a better stamina stat that Itachi. On top of that Sasuke frequently used more chakra taxing moves than Itachi did, another indicator his chakra was greater. 

Itachi for his 2.5 stamina after his death in part 2. I wouldn't treat Itachi specially with the stamina-illness point when a sick Kimimaro (who moved with nothing but will power) scored a 4.5 for stamina. 



> If Sick Itachi and Healthy Itachi have no chakra difference than what the fuck is the difference? Itachi was moving around fast enough to pwn Hebi Sauce in taijutsu, all while throwing the match, so obviously he was soldiering through the pain of disease. The only difference besides that is....wait for it......CHAKRA



To know the difference we look no further than Zetsu's complaints:
Zetsu said Itachi coughed blood. Zetsu also said that Itachi was slower than normal- based on how he dodged a shuriken.

So based on that a healthy Itachi would be like sick Itachi but he wouldn't cough blood, and he would be fast enough to easily dodge Sasuke's rigged shuriken. He'd basically be a weaker Edo Itachi, due to lacking regeneration and infinite chakra.


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## Dr. White (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > Then stick to that instead of attempting to re-interpret the fight Itachi had Sasuke's assistance with. I simply used aspects of that fight to discredit the idea that Itachi can take Kabuto.
> 
> 
> I did..In my first post, you were the one who brought the Kabuto fight into things claiming how Itachi got murked twice in that fight(without explaining context) and using that amongst other things to support Kabuto's win here. I simply argued against your notions using the fight to argue against you.
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm sorry Dr.White but deleting you're comment because,"lol Ichliebe" just hurts you. I saw a ton of problems with EVERYTHING you've said and I pointed out 1 thing because of how funny it was. You're seriously comparing the sharingan tax by using part 1 Kakashi (non-uchiha and out of shape) to an Uchiha. I think everyone would laugh at that comparison because it was established directly in the fight you referred to. And then you don't even have to decency to keep your post up for me to see. But whatever, you probably deleted it because you couldn't counter one thing I said and we all know you're not going to conceed.

If you reply to this, don't delete it and let me atleast see it. If you say not to reply back to the post then I won't. I just want to see what you have to say to it.


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## Dr. White (Apr 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I'm sorry Dr.White but deleting you're comment because,"lol Ichliebe" just hurts you. I saw a ton of problems with EVERYTHING you've said and I pointed out 1 thing because of how funny it was. You're seriously comparing the sharingan tax by using part 1 Kakashi (non-uchiha and out of shape) to an Uchiha. I think everyone would laugh at that comparison because it was established directly in the fight you referred to. And then you don't even have to decency to keep your post up for me to see. But whatever, you probably deleted it because you couldn't counter one thing I said and we all know you're not going to conceed.
> 
> If you reply to this, don't delete it and let me atleast see it. If you say not to reply back to the post then I won't. I just want to see what you have to say to it.



I never claimed that it would affect Kakashi like it does an uchiha  I said that Uchiha's still suffer chakra drainage from the Sharingan hence why Madara couldn't sustain it after fighting Hashirama for a prolonged time, and why Sasuke couldn't sustain it after fighting Itachi.

I deleted my post because dignifying you with a response never turns out beneficial, as I may soon re find out.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> [I did..In my first post, you were the one who brought the Kabuto fight into things claiming how Itachi got murked twice in that fight(without explaining context) and using that amongst other things to support Kabuto's win here. I simply argued against your notions using the fight to argue against you.



An example would've been better, not a debate about how the fight should be interpreted. 
However the context is clear, Kabuto managed to get hits that would kill the Itachi ITT despite being limited by ensuring Sasuke's safety. My point was, now that Sasuke is out of here and Itachi doesn't have the enhancements to recover from Kabuto's hits... I wouldn't say Itachi's chances were great.



> -Once again I ask you how did he limit himself? Mukai Tensei seemed fine to impale Itachi, Kabuto didn't stop using Bone Forest when Sasuke was their, and Kabuto had no problem engaging Itachi in CqC with the scalpel. Kabuto gains absolutely nothing offensive wise in Sasuke's absence in that fight. Itachi has the tools to deal with all of his jutsu, and Kabuto once again won't revel in the time he had vs a passive Itachi.
> 
> 
> Itachi only needs MS to win here, with maybe a few clones. If he doesn't use base moves and conserves chakra he can use susano on gaps much longer than he did vs Sasuke(plus Amaterasu) which was long in itself. He won't have cakewalk but he def has the tools to do it. Also please don't forget that tanking Kirin took a shitload of energy to sustain Susano during. So not tanking Kirin gives him much more energy to work with.




The limitation is quite obvious, Kabuto said he's make sure that Sasuke wasn't harmed. On a practical note, it is very hard to fight whilst you're making sure the stronger of your foes isn't harmed. 
Now he'd be willing to do everything he did on more severe levels, e.g. he can now have the terrain literally crush Itachi without worrying about Sasuke. On top of that he can now use the rest of the Sound 5 abilities he didn't have the chance to use like Kidomaru's arrow (note Kidomaru's third eye on Kabuto's jutsu). Then there's other things like Manda 2 and more uses of snakes, particularly the jutsu Orochimaru used- but in Kabuto's case they're likely to be improved too. 
All of which seem reasonable now that his reason for holding back isn't here.

In fact if he wanted he could literally finish off by attacking right after using White Rage.



> We will have to agree to disagree. I don't understand how a near decade full of similar effects to this and terminal illness don't effect one's chakra but ok.



My basis is the author's consistence to highlight it when a character's chakra capacity has been compromised for one reason or another, the earliest example being Hiruzen and the latest being Obito, iirc.
In conjunction with the fact another terminally ill character (Kimimaro) also didn't have his chakra level compromised as he scored a high level in stamina. Basically if Itachi's chakra level was compromised in anyway that prevented him from fighting in a certain way, it would've been mentioned. Instead he got the Kimimaro treatment wherein apparently his illness didn't affect his chakra capacity.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> You are really gonna go down this route? The base sharingan itself requires taxing amounts of chakra and can't even be active all the time for an uchiha.You are telling me sharingan didn't tax pt.1 Kakashi's ability to use chakra/jutsu? MS taxes the user much more than this and Itachi's had it since he was 13: in pt. 1 after using Tsukuyomi once, Kisame told us that using the MS to much is chakra taxing.






Dr. White said:


> I never claimed that it would affect Kakashi like it does an uchiha  I said that Uchiha's still suffer chakra drainage from the Sharingan hence why Madara couldn't sustain it after fighting Hashirama for a prolonged time, and why Sasuke couldn't sustain it after fighting Itachi.
> 
> I deleted my post because dignifying you with a response never turns out beneficial, as I may soon re find out.



Read the quote above. You're EXACT words are,"you are telling me sharingan didn't tax pt.1 Kakashi's ability to use chakra/jutsu?" You said this to prove that sharingan cripples people, specifically Itachi.

Now, I'll go even further than what I said in my first post. Kakashi never said the sharigan taxed his ability to use chakra/jutsu. He said it took alot of chakra to use, but because he was non Uchiha. So you're point about it damaging Itachi's ability, it never did. It just uses chakra, and to an Uchiha it's almost minimal as their bodies are built for it.

And you're right, it's not beneficial because I make your argument look like shit.


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## Dr. White (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > An example would've been better, not a debate about how the fight should be interpreted.
> > However the context is clear, Kabuto managed to get hits that would kill the Itachi ITT despite being limited by ensuring Sasuke's safety. My point was, now that Sasuke is out of here and Itachi doesn't have the enhancements to recover from Kabuto's hits... I wouldn't say Itachi's chances were great.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Using those feats and applying them here is kinda moot, as Itachi can defend himself, and will be up Kabuto's ass the whole fight, similar to how he fought when he was trying to set up Izanami, only with alot more Amaterasu, and Susnano involved.



I don't doubt Itachi can defend himself. However I'm just doubting it'll help him for long given how Sasuke's mere presence changed a lot of things. 
The Amaterasu would be a waste of chakra given it can be sensed and there is a natural counter for it. Susanoo isn't a super counter because Kabuto managed to deal with two at once. 




> Kabuto was able to use all of his arsenal including two OHKO jutsu's in bone forest, and Mukai Tensei. I would agree with your second point if Sasuke was actually able to utilize his threat potential and attack Kabuto with killing intent but he couldn't. Also Sasuke wasn't stronger, he had more DC and moveset, but Itachi would wax him(getting off topic with the last point)



Having to tailor your jutsu to fight two foes, one of which mustn't be harmed, is an effort. That is what Kabuto went through with the Uchiha fight. However here that isn't the case as he can focus on just one. Now if Itachi found himself in that awkward situation again, he'd have to either try to cut the webs (likely can't as Sasuke resorted to Kagutsuchi) or aiming for the bones.
Then there's the question of the Genjutsu.



> -Once again you are completely forgetting the context in which Kabuto was able to use those moves, without having to worry about dying or being attacked seriously Kabuto could simply do wha he pleased. To use each member of the sound 4 he has to mold their DNA, and summon them from his stomach, this takes time that vs a killing intent Itachi he simply won't have to be casting super fast combo's. Add to that fact that Susano can rearrange the cave, and Ama can occupy most of the space and Kabuto is left with literally little room to work with. Manda 2 is of no use here as we are in the cave and he wouldn't fit, and the snakes proved useless against Susano anyway.



I doubt killing intent Itachi would change, except with more Susanoo. However Kabuto still has counters to two MS jutsu alongside all base Itachi's tricks and has a ton of ways to fight Susanoo. 

That coupled with the factors I outlined earlier are the reasons why I don't think Itachi would win.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> No you have no idea what the fuck you are even arguing right now and as usual make yourself seem ignorant and arrogant two very ironic features.
> 
> Sharingan does tax chakra and I did bring up Kakashi to make the point that shown on a non Uchiha character(specifically an elite jonin like pt.1 kakashi) can even be bed ridden by minimal use. As I specifically stated Uchiha bodies coming with the KKG affinity to sharingan don't face the plights that Kakashi, or a non Uchiha would, but despite this as showcased by fatigued Sasuke, and Madara, Sharingan does tax them chakra and cannot be held up forever.
> 
> ...



I used your exact words. You said it hinders their ability to use chakra/jutsu. I doesn't.

I never saw you use Sasuke or Madara as evidence. I might have missed it and if I did please show me where. All you said was,"The base sharingan itself requires taxing amounts of chakra and can't even be active all the time for an uchiha.You are telling me sharingan didn't tax pt.1 Kakashi's ability to use chakra/jutsu? MS taxes the user much more than this and Itachi's had it since he was 13: in pt. 1 after using Tsukuyomi once, Kisame told us that using the MS to much is chakra taxing." 

Where does that mention Sasuke or Madara. You said it taxed Kaksahi's *ABILITY* to use chakra/jutsu. It doesn't tax that, it does tax chakra but everything does. And to an Uchiha it's literally almost nothing. You're making it way more than what it is.

And ignoring someone in the battledome is quite pathetic. This is what it's meant for. If you're going to post here then learn to take criticism, and not ignore people because you don't know how to deal with someone who has a differing view than you.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 29, 2013)

Itachi with full knowledge and killing/winning intent is just going to run up and fucking stab Kabuto with the Totsuka no Tsurugi. You guys know that, right?

Hakugeki didn't work.

Muki Tensei can be blocked with Susano'o (and now Itachi knows Amaterasu can nullify it).

Sawarabi no Mai can be stopped with Susano'o.

Kumo Nenkin can be burned through with Amaterasu.

Itachi knows Mugen Onsa is dangerous and can try to prevent Kabuto from using it. Kage Bunshin might also work for the Sharingan partner method.

Itachi was able to parry Kabuto with just a regular sword, so he shouldn't have too much trouble hitting him with Susano'o, which is even faster than he is. In fact, we already saw him stab Kabuto with it here.

And we also know that Itachi can execute Karasu Bunshin/Kage Bunshin feints without Kabuto noticing. That would be useful for getting in a decisive cheap shot.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi with full knowledge and killing/winning intent is just going to run up and fucking stab Kabuto with the Totsuka no Tsurugi. You guys know that, right?



Except Kabuto is faster, danger sensing, and can counter totsuka all day.



> Hakugeki didn't work.



It did. It caused Itachi's susanoo to go away. 1 second is all Kabuto needs.



> Muki Tensei can be blocked with Susano'o (and now Itachi knows Amaterasu can nullify it).



Doesn't make it useless.



> Sawarabi no Mai can be stopped with Susano'o.



How? I haven't seen Itachi form any kind of a bottom for susanoo. Scan?



> Kumo Nenkin can be burned through with Amaterasu.



This isn't edo Itachi. He can't just spam MS.



> Itachi knows Mugen Onsa is dangerous and can try to prevent Kabuto from using it. Kage Bunshin might also work for the Sharingan partner method.



TRY, too bad it won't work. And Bunshin partner method, lol. If he can even keep a bunshin out, then he goes in the genjutsu too, and this time Kabuto isn't going to stand around and have a chat.



> Itachi was able to parry Kabuto with just a regular sword, so he shouldn't have too much trouble hitting him with Susano'o, which is even faster than he is. In fact, we already saw him stab Kabuto with it here.



WOW. He blocked Kabuto hand with a sword, he must be amaing . Remember Kabuto dodging Itachi's sword strike MULITPLE times.

How did that show susanoo being faster than him? All it showed was susanoo blocking another susanoo, that's not a speed feat. That's a reaction feat...that Kabuto has beat. Moving your whole body>>>>>blocking with susanoo. You know because there's actual dodging.

And he stabbed him? I saw Kabuto perfectly okay, infact when I go to the next page Itachi's is cut in half. Being dead serious. You know what even funnier, Here's the end result when not only does Itachi catch his snake, Sasuke does too.




> And we also know that Itachi can execute Karasu Bunshin/Kage Bunshin feints without Kabuto noticing. That would be useful for getting in a decisive cheap shot.



Indeed, except it didn't work one time out of 2 or 3. Kabuto dodged everytime.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Except Kabuto is faster, danger sensing, and can counter totsuka all day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude? You do realize Kabuto was in a loop that's why he dodged the sword strike multiple times right


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## IchLiebe (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Dude? You do realize Kabuto was in a loop that's why he dodged the sword strike multiple times right



No he wasn't. Dodging it was what got him put in the loop. And being in the loop means nothing. It was Itachi's genjutsu and it takes nothing away from the feats. If it changed the senses and the world was controlled or something then maybe, but it don't.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> No he wasn't. Dodging it was what got him put in the loop. And being in the loop means nothing. It was Itachi's genjutsu and it takes nothing away from the feats. If it changed the senses and the world was controlled or something then maybe, but it don't.



, dude itachi clipped his horn the very first time, and that was to prep izanami, after the first clip itachi remarked the jutsu had been prepped and now they needed to wait it out.


Double standard much? I see you arguing against itachi's genjutsu feats in every itachi thread, but now these same feats are justifiable when it comes to a different character? I guess it makes sense lol.


It's also pretty much a mute point because itachi couldn't kill him anyway, itachi proved he has the speed to hit Kabuto.


Had itachi been going from the kill, the very first bushing feint would've ended with Kabuto being impaled by the totsuka sword instead of him getting his horn clipped


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## IchLiebe (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> , dude itachi clipped his horn the very first time, and that was to prep izanami, after the first clip itachi remarked the jutsu had been prepped and now they needed to wait it out.



Kabuto said he wasn't used to the horns and that was the only reason it was cut off. And it wasn't prepped. Read how izanami works, you need 1 action to happen twice so it was real until the part after Itachi got cut in half.



> Double standard much? I see you arguing against itachi's genjutsu feats in every itachi thread, but now these same feats are justifiable when it comes to a different character? I guess it makes sense lol.



It's not a double standard. It's Itachi's genjutsu's in all those cases, where he controls what happens. In Izanami, it isn't controlled by anyone and it's all "real" in a sense. 

So basically in tsukiyomi, if Itachi is somewhere and appears behind someone then it's not a feat. If he does it in Izanami, it can be counted as a feat since he can't control anything in the genjutsu.



> It's also pretty much a mute point because itachi couldn't kill him anyway, itachi proved he has the speed to hit Kabuto.



Itachi only cut his horn off, which Kabuto stated why. Kabuto can dodge Itachi all day long, while Itachi gets cut in half.



> Had itachi been going from the kill, the very first bushing feint would've ended with Kabuto being impaled by the totsuka sword instead of him getting his horn clipped



Had it not been 2v1, not an edo, and actually fighting instead of speeches Kabuto would have Itachi worse than he did.

Totsuka means nothing as Kabuto can just liquify out of it. Kabuto has a counter to EVERYTHING Itachi has.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kabuto said he wasn't used to the horns and that was the only reason it was cut off. And it wasn't prepped. Read how izanami works, you need 1 action to happen twice so it was real until the part after Itachi got cut in half.


Read the manga, it was prepped but wasn't active yet, hence them being on the defense the entire match.



IchLiebe said:


> It's not a double standard. It's Itachi's genjutsu's in all those cases, where he controls what happens. In Izanami, it isn't controlled by anyone and it's all "real" in a sense.


Itachi genjutsu's his opponents by simulating real life events, which is why majority of his opponents don't realize there trapped in a genjutsu, he never buffs his own abilities inside the genjutsu.

Kabuto was stuck in a loop,  the loop was clearly repeating the same events I don't understand why you don't get it? 


IchLiebe said:


> So basically in tsukiyomi, if Itachi is somewhere and appears behind someone then it's not a feat. If he does it in Izanami, it can be counted as a feat since he can't control anything in the genjutsu.


Read the context the genjutsu's are being used in, itachi can simulate real life experiences in his genjutsu's  reread the uchiha fight if you don't understand it.


IchLiebe said:


> Itachi only cut his horn off, which Kabuto stated why. Kabuto can dodge Itachi all day long, while Itachi gets cut in half.


Itachi got cut in half to activate izanami, itachi also tagged Kabuto a few times in the match as well.


IchLiebe said:


> Had it not been 2v1, not an edo, and actually fighting instead of speeches Kabuto would have Itachi worse than he did.


Of course he would , it's not like itachi would actually fight back now 


IchLiebe said:


> Totsuka means nothing as Kabuto can just liquify out of it. Kabuto has a counter to EVERYTHING Itachi has. .


 Hold on are you really suggesting Kabuto can liquefy out of a totsuka and not get sealed?


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## IchLiebe (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Read the manga, it was prepped but wasn't active yet, hence them being on the defense the entire match.



Prepped means ready to use, it wasn't ready to use so no it wasn't prepped.



> Itachi genjutsu's his opponents by simulating real life events, which is why majority of his opponents don't realize there trapped in a genjutsu, he never buffs his own abilities inside the genjutsu.



Like stabbing Kakashi for 72 hours, making Naruto see every as Itachi and Sasuke's head attached to his shoulder, Kakashi burning like paper, etc. He never does that, Sasuke does. In his genjutsu he controls what happens so giving him feats from them is stupid.



> Kabuto was stuck in a loop,  the loop was clearly repeating the same events I don't understand why you don't get it?



Except only certain things repeated. In the loop Itachi got his arm bit off, that didn't happen outside the loop. And Itachi used a suiton in the loop, but didn't outside. While it's a loop, different things can happen.0



> Read the context the genjutsu's are being used in, itachi can simulate real life experiences in his genjutsu's  reread the uchiha fight if you don't understand it.



Except ITACHI is controlling the genjutsu so we can't give it to him. If a 3rd party was the one who casted the genjutsu then okay, but Itachi did and giving him feats in a world he has complete control over is stupid.



> Itachi got cut in half to activate izanami, itachi also tagged Kabuto a few times in the match as well.



Activating Izanami had nothing to do with getting cut in half. And he never tagged Kabuto.



> Of course he would , it's not like itachi would actually fight back now



You mean like how Kabuto outright stated he wouldn't lay a hand on Sasuke and how Itachi was an invicible, edo with ifinite chakra and no MS drawbacks. Kabuto was way more handicapped.



> Hold on are you really suggesting Kabuto can liquefy out of a totsuka and not get sealed?



I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it will happen. It times time to seal as seen when used on Oro, and Nagato.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Prepped means ready to use, it wasn't ready to use so no it wasn't prepped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can't debate against someone who blatantly ignores the manga


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## IchLiebe (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> I can't debate against someone who blatantly ignores the manga



So when proved wrong just say that I ignore the manga, LOL. You can't debate because you lost.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> So when proved wrong just say that I ignore the manga, LOL. You can't debate because you lost.



Of course unfortunately I can't liquefy out of the points you made


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## IchLiebe (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Of course unfortunately I can't liquefy out of the points you made



He can liquify. LOL, it's sad when the Itachi side of the debate can't even say anything. I guess when a rape that bad occurs nothing can be said.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Of course unfortunately I can't liquefy out of the points you made



He he Suigetsu's DNA, albeit modified, it doesn't away away from the idea that he can liquify. The whole point of mentioning he had Taka's DNA was to highlight that he has aspects of their powers; Suigetsu only has one ability.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He he Suigetsu's DNA, albeit modified, it doesn't away away from the idea that he can liquify. The whole point of mentioning he had Taka's DNA was to highlight that he has aspects of their powers; Suigetsu only has one ability.



He actually liquify's in the fight.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> He actually liquify's in the fight.



Good find. In addition, the modification seems to make his liquidification more advanced than Suigetsu's. Seeing as he could liquidfy his insides and not everything. 

Nevertheless your find supports the point that Kabuto can choose to liquidfy whenever he pleases. 

Well there are some interesting combos he can utilise actually, especially as he's for the Sound 5's powers and abilities.  
He also took their DNA, and in theory he could use all Juugo and Suigetsu's jutsu in the same way he used Orochimaru and the Sound 5's precise jutsu.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Good find. In addition, the modification seems to make his liquidification more advanced than Suigetsu's. Seeing as he could liquidfy his insides and not everything.
> 
> Nevertheless your find supports the point that Kabuto can choose to liquidfy whenever he pleases.
> 
> ...



Don't forget he can heal himself constantly with Karin's power.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Don't forget he can heal himself constantly with Karin's power.



Actually Kabuto has his old regeneration in part 1 (not limited by chakra not), alongside the white snake healing, and that power you referenced. All of which would be rapidly enhanced by Sage Mode, which in turn provides its own regeneration.


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## narutoish (May 1, 2013)

@ IchLiebe

no degree of liquifying/regenerating will help against tostuka/amertersu. If kabuto doesn't know about tostuka he loses.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 1, 2013)

narutoish said:


> @ IchLiebe
> 
> no degree of liquifying/regenerating will help against tostuka/amertersu. If kabuto doesn't know about tostuka he loses.



Totsuka doesn't seal immediately. There is still a small time frame where it does nothing - usually the victims just talk in that time. That time could be used for efficient counters like Kabuto spitting himself out. 

Amaterasu, Kabuto can sense it and he also has the same jutsu Sasuke used to counter it.


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## Complete_Ownage (May 1, 2013)

Kabuto is simply in another league compared to Itachi and especially one that is not an edo.

Genjutsu - useless via sensing

Amaterusa -useless thanks to kabuto's sensing ability even if set up and caught he can simply liquify or use oral rebirth

Sussanoo - is his only hope however kabuto can easily dodge any of its attacks. Kabuto has also shown the ability to genjutsu through Sussanoo and use sound to weaken or cause the user to weaken its effects

Also as shown with orochimaru and nagato it seems the sealing sword does not seal right away. This is anyones guess however. It could simply be the nature of the sword or it could be user activated since Itachi always lets his victims speak first. If it nature of the sword there is no stopping kabuto from liquifying

Any type of physical damage is useless since kabuto has healing powers that probably make orochimarus seem outdated(well were see what hashiramas dna does for him)


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## IchLiebe (May 2, 2013)

narutoish said:


> @ IchLiebe
> 
> no degree of liquifying/regenerating will help against tostuka/amertersu. If kabuto doesn't know about tostuka he loses.



Except he knows about it from Nagato. Remember that he heard and saw everything that fight.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 2, 2013)

Genjutsu=Useless

Black flames=Useless.

Totsuka blade is never going to hit him.

Itachi dies and rather quickly.


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## narutoish (May 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Totsuka doesn't seal immediately. There is still a small time frame where it does nothing - usually the victims just talk in that time. That time could be used for efficient counters like Kabuto spitting himself out.
> 
> Amaterasu, Kabuto can sense it and he also has the same jutsu Sasuke used to counter it.



if there was anything that could be done about tostuka, oro would've done it. Tostuka seals the soul, and it does it fast, however, in nagato's case, I think itachi let him talk for a while before sealing him, meaning itachi controls the sealing process.


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## Complete_Ownage (May 2, 2013)

narutoish said:


> if there was anything that could be done about tostuka, oro would've done it. Tostuka seals the soul, and it does it fast, however, in nagato's case, I think itachi let him talk for a while before sealing him, meaning itachi controls the sealing process.



The thing is Orochimaru did not know Itachi had the Tostuka sword at the time and did not recognize it until it was to late. He even mentioned to Itachi that his sword attack was pointless against him until Itachi explained other wise

Orochimaru was not sealed immediately and I believe his sealing was just as long if not longer then Nagatos

Like  Munboy and myself mentioned earlier the sealing aspects of the sword remain a mystery. In both instances it did not seal the shinobi right away however in those same instances Itachi let his victims talk first. Who th hell knows


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 2, 2013)

narutoish said:


> if there was anything that could be done about tostuka, oro would've done it. Tostuka seals the soul, and it does it fast, however, in nagato's case, I think itachi let him talk for a while before sealing him, meaning itachi controls the sealing process.



Oro was too busy talking about how a stab does nothing to him. In addition, while being sealed Orochimaru _did_ manage to get a lot of snakes out. 

With Nagato there are several factors to consider:
- Edo Tensei couldn't attack one-another as Muu and Trollkage showed.
- Nagato wouldn't attack anyway.
- Nagato has two powers that could bail him out (Tendo and Gakido) - remember Oro could talk a lot and still get snakes out. 

Itachi doesn't seem to control the sealing process, the Edo Tensei was already breaking apart when Nagato was stabbed. Anything that compromises the ET's soul always causes it to crumble e.g. Shikifuujin. 
So it seems that Totsuka is one of the anti-ET jutsu. 

However this doesn't imply Itachi would be able to seal right away. It is still somewhat of a mystery. However Orochimaru being able to get snakes out, surprisingly late in the sealing process does seem to lean towards the small interim to get out theory.


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## Dr. White (May 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Oro was too busy talking about how a stab does nothing to him. In addition, while being sealed Orochimaru _did_ manage to get a lot of snakes out.
> 
> With Nagato there are several factors to consider:
> - Edo Tensei couldn't attack one-another as Muu and Trollkage showed.
> ...



Totsuka is a fuinjutsu/genjutsu at its roots, you can't just wiggle out of fuinjutsu it doesn't work like that, once stabbed you are sealed. And the way Itachi treated Nagato telling him he was going to seal him and offering him having control.

Also regarding Oro, nothing changed about him after he started talking shit, the sword was in him from the get. If he could have escaped he would have, especially after realizing what the weapon was. There is a reason the weapons are spiritual gifts, and for Zetsu to call them Invinsible straight up tells you how deadly they are. Yet Kabuto somehow liquifies and escapes a fuinjutsu, that liquifies the target itself/?


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## Antos (May 2, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Kabuto is simply in another league compared to Itachi and especially one that is not an edo.
> 
> Genjutsu - useless via sensing
> 
> ...



You see that's why Sasuke said it would be easier to kill him rather than trying to incapacitate him liquify, make almost all hard to pull a blow that would incapacitate him and if they inflicted damage upon him he would just heal and be back to normal so Genjutsu became the best option to incapacitate him without killing him but he made it so itachi could not catch him seeing as he his sensing made Itachi's genjutsu almost impossible to catch him in.

liquifying won't do anything to amaterasu otherwise he could have just used it to bypass it  and based on the fact that he reminded itachi that killing him would not stop edo which pretty much points out that he had powers that could kill him.  I don't think he could sense it coming but rather he felt the heat from it and stopped before stepping on at which point Sasuke spawn-around and made a circle of fire.  and as we know no regenration as yet to stand up to to it.
amaterasu alone would be a problem for anyone obito and madara excluded.



> Sussanoo - is his only hope however kabuto can easily dodge any of its attacks. Kabuto has also shown the ability to genjutsu through Sussanoo and use sound to weaken or cause the user to weaken its effects






> Also as shown with orochimaru and nagato it seems the sealing sword does not seal right away. This is anyones guess however. It could simply be the nature of the sword or it could be user activated since Itachi always lets his victims speak first. If it nature of the sword there is no stopping kabuto from liquifying



And nothing was stopping orochimaru form using oral rebirth but he ended up sealed anyway I think its just if someone or something is trying to seal you it stops the use of jutsu which could explain why Nagato regained control


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## IchLiebe (May 2, 2013)

OROCHIMARU WAS LAUGHING AT ITACHI FOR THINKING A STAB WOULD AFFECT HIM. Note how he could laugh and say a sentence before anything happened. See how Nagato could give a fucking speech. This is Kabuto in battlemode, not speech, speech, speech, attack, speech, speech, attack. NO this is a Kabuto that's going to kill and not talk it out. Seriously he has plenty of time to get out of it by liquifying IF HE GETS FUCKING HIT WHICH ISN'T HAPPENING AS HE'S TIERS ABOVE ITACHI IN SPEED.


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## Bkprince33 (May 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> OROCHIMARU WAS LAUGHING AT ITACHI FOR THINKING A STAB WOULD AFFECT HIM. Note how he could laugh and say a sentence before anything happened. See how Nagato could give a fucking speech. This is Kabuto in battlemode, not speech, speech, speech, attack, speech, speech, attack. NO this is a Kabuto that's going to kill and not talk it out. Seriously he has plenty of time to get out of it by liquifying IF HE GETS FUCKING HIT WHICH ISN'T HAPPENING AS HE'S TIERS ABOVE ITACHI IN SPEED.



What proof do you have that liquefying would work 

You seem to not understand the properties of sealing, and totsuka


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## IchLiebe (May 2, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> What proof do you have that liquefying would work
> 
> You seem to not understand the properties of sealing, and totsuka



Sealing takes time. Get out of the seal before that happens and you're free. Lets look.

Madara is in sand with tag on it. The tag is the seal. But what happens

Darui is being sealed. Almost in. Yeah...he's not.

Hiruzen seals two people with shiki fujin.  He fights for a minute.  And after a while Hiruzen says once it's done you die. But hell he's sealed two people with it thus two seals with his name on them, and he's alive. This shows best that even after the arms being sealed, it takes time for them to become completely useless


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## Remsengan (May 2, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> What proof do you have that liquefying would work
> 
> You seem to not understand the properties of sealing, and totsuka



You're the one misinformed.  Orochimaru actually escaped the initial seal, and his ability to disperse is lesser than Kabuto's, and slower.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> You're the one misinformed.  Orochimaru actually escaped the initial seal, and his ability to disperse is lesser than Kabuto's, and slower.



Orochimaru was in the form of a boss summon sized hydra made up of white snakes. It is also doubtful what that snake would or could accomplish in that form. Escape to recover and return to fight another day ?
That still counts as a defeat.


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## Bkprince33 (May 3, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Sealing takes time. Get out of the seal before that happens and you're free. Lets look.
> 
> Madara is in sand with tag on it. The tag is the seal. But what happens
> 
> ...




Look at your own examples, hiruzen requirement to seal someone is to pull there soul out, Dariu didn't get sealed because his requirement changed right before he went in.


Itachi reuirement to seal you is to pierce you, Kabuto turning into liquid won't changed the fact that he got pierced and hell get sucked up into the bottle weather he's liquid or solid.





Remsengan said:


> You're the one misinformed.  Orochimaru actually escaped the initial seal, and his ability to disperse is lesser than Kabuto's, and slower.



You do realize the hydra is the form off a boss summon, and the only reason oro was almost able to escape was because a piece of his cell's where still in the hydra, it literally had nothing to do with the totsuka taking time, but more with his experimentations, how do you think sasuke revived him threw anko?


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## Remsengan (May 3, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Orochimaru was in the form of a boss summon sized hydra made up of white snakes. It is also doubtful what that snake would or could accomplish in that form. Escape to recover and return to fight another day ?
> That still counts as a defeat.





Bkprince33 said:


> You do realize the hydra is the form off a boss summon, and the only reason oro was almost able to escape was because a piece of his cell's where still in the hydra, it literally had nothing to do with the totsuka taking time, but more with his experimentations, how do you think sasuke revived him threw anko?



And yet it still proves that Totsuka does not instantly seal.  Kabuto is tiers faster, better reactions, better sensing, better regen and better snake jutsu than Orochimaru.  

In fact, he transforms into snakes seamlessly.  And then spawns from them with almost with the same ease.  His collection of abilities greatly increases chance he can escape from Totsuka, assuming he's even hit by it at all.  If Orochimaru can barely escape from it, it's not a far leap to say that Kabuto, with Oro's abilities + SM + Uza regen all combined and enhanced, can escape far easier.


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## IchLiebe (May 3, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Look at your own examples, hiruzen requirement to seal someone is to pull there soul out, Dariu didn't get sealed because his requirement changed right before he went in.Itachi reuirement to seal you is to pierce you, Kabuto turning into liquid won't changed the fact that he got pierced and hell get sucked up into the bottle weather he's liquid or solid.



And he pulled it out. As soon as everything was done, we saw it slowing affecting Orochimaru's arms. And Hiruzen lived long enough for a speech after it despite his soul being sealed which means death. Darui was being sealed, then he wasn't. Kabuto is going to be stabbed and requirement met, then he liquifiy's and it's not met. He won't get sucked up because he will never be hit and if he does then liquifying does escape. Just quit unless you have 100% proof turning into water won't let him escape, and also prove how he gets hit because every speed feat says otherwise.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> And yet it still proves that Totsuka does not instantly seal.  Kabuto is tiers faster, better reactions, better sensing, better regen and better snake jutsu than Orochimaru.
> 
> In fact, he transforms into snakes seamlessly.  And then spawns from them with almost with the same ease.  His collection of abilities greatly increases chance he can escape from Totsuka, assuming he's even hit by it at all.  If Orochimaru can barely escape from it, it's not a far leap to say that Kabuto, with Oro's abilities + SM + Uza regen all combined and enhanced, can escape far easier.



The sealing begins instantly, as evident in Kabuto losing control over Nagato the moment he was stabbed. 

The body being dragged into the gourd takes a couple of seconds. Which obviously depends of different variables, such as distance or size.

Orochimaru's unique physiology allowed him to save 1 snake. 
And it was still a defeat, given he was trying to escape, slip past the radar.

As far as we know, Kabuto doesn't have hydra mode or a body made up of thousands of snakes.
And even if he can do the same thing Orochimaru did, if Itachi is alive by then, he might simply get caught and killed. Loses the match eitherway.


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## Remsengan (May 3, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The sealing begins instantly, as evident in Kabuto losing control over Nagato the moment he was stabbed.
> 
> The body being dragged into the gourd takes a couple of seconds. Which obviously depends of different variables, such as distance or size.



While the sealing begins and takes a couple seconds, Kabuto just instantly disperses.  The fact that the snakes are liquid-ous lends itself to Kabuto escaping far easier.  The fact that Kabuto is smaller and his jutsu is more controlled also helps his cause.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Orochimaru's unique physiology allowed him to save 1 snake.
> And it was still a defeat, given he was trying to escape, slip past the radar.



Yet all it takes is one snake for Kabuto to reform.  His has Oro's regen, plus his own, plus Uzamaki's all enhanced with SM.  It's an entirely higher tier than what Orochimaru has, which is why the results will be far more successful.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> As far as we know, Kabuto doesn't have hydra mode or a body made up of thousands of snakes.
> And even if he can do the same thing Orochimaru did, if Itachi is alive by then, he might simply get caught and killed. Loses the match eitherway.



Last time Kabuto dispersed, the combined Uchiha bros were unable to locate him until he voluntarily resurfaced.


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## Final Jutsu (May 3, 2013)

Kabuto.  Sound gengustu -> gank.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Totsuka is a fuinjutsu/genjutsu at its roots, you can't just wiggle out of fuinjutsu it doesn't work like that, once stabbed you are sealed. And the way Itachi treated Nagato telling him he was going to seal him and offering him having control.



Not all Fuuinjutsu are like that. You're thinking of Fuuinjutsu like Shikifuuinjin which literally extracts the victims soul. Or the ones used to bind weakened Edo Tensei which are specially designed for that. Fuuinjutsu are as different as individual Ninjutsu. 

Once stabbed you are not sealed by Totsuka; Orochimaru and Nagato could give surprisingly lengthy speeches while being sealed. Itachi just said he was getting sealed and asked if they were any last words he wanted to say. It doesn't translate to Itachi controlled the sealing process; he would've said he is going to. 



> Also regarding Oro, nothing changed about him after he started talking shit, the sword was in him from the get. If he could have escaped he would have, especially after realizing what the weapon was. There is a reason the weapons are spiritual gifts, and for Zetsu to call them Invinsible straight up tells you how deadly they are. Yet Kabuto somehow liquifies and escapes a fuinjutsu, that liquifies the target itself/?



Orochimaru _did_ escape. You saw all those tiny snakes. However he had time to give a speech, so that chucks out the "auto-insta-seal" theory. 
Kabuto won't be able to liquify if he too joins the rest and gives a long speech- though like Oro he could be back to strike.

Being called spiritual gifts means nothing in relation to power. Refer to the Kin-Gin items, they were from the Rikudou Sennin himself. Yet a top tier like Obito didn't care about them. 
You're misquoting, he said with the combination of Totsuka and Yata, Itachi is invincible. Not that Yata is invincible.


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## Dr. White (May 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > Not all Fuuinjutsu are like that. You're thinking of Fuuinjutsu like Shikifuuinjin which literally extracts the victims soul. Or the ones used to bind weakened Edo Tensei which are specially designed for that. Fuuinjutsu are as different as individual Ninjutsu.
> 
> 
> No Fuinjutsu seals, there is no way around this. Jiraiya's sealed Ama with Fuinjutsu, Oro fucked with Naruto's seal, and Jiraiya rerouted it, Kakashi temporarily sealed Sasuke's curse mark, and Oro utilized Fuinjutsu to create CS. All Fuinjutsu encompasses the sealing of chakra, or some entity,: yet somehow someone can physically escape this Fuinjutsu? Totsuka does seal the soul, and the body as we saw with Nagato, Oro, and his summon. You have no proof that someone could escape totsuka after being stabbed.
> ...


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## Ivy Haruno (May 4, 2013)

ummm Kabuto (did I spell that right?) vs Itachi. Ummm wow I have no idea. To me it seems like Edo Tense (I can't spell without spell check) is supposed to be like an " all-powerfully jutsu". But, I also feel like that Susanoo is supposed to be like that also.... So I have no idea.... Sorry for disturbing.


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## Seon (May 4, 2013)

Itachi with ease. Kabuto knew he couldn't beat Itachi alone.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> While the sealing begins and takes a couple seconds, Kabuto just instantly disperses.


He can't disperse once sealed.
And when did Kabuto instantly disperse ? 




> The fact that the snakes are liquid-ous lends itself to Kabuto escaping far easier.  The fact that Kabuto is smaller and his jutsu is more controlled also helps his cause.


They can't liqufy instantly either. 




> Yet all it takes is one snake for Kabuto to reform.


Evidence ? 



> His has Oro's regen, plus his own, plus Uzamaki's all enhanced with SM.  It's an entirely higher tier than what Orochimaru has, which is why the results will be far more successful.


We don't know how quickly Orochimaru could form through that snake. Or we don't know if he was capable of casually reforming either.
So this is a moot point.



> Last time Kabuto dispersed, the combined Uchiha bros were unable to locate him until he voluntarily resurfaced.



Because he dispersed into many different snakes and Itachi didn't want Sasuke to go after him without knowing whether it was a trap or not.
And he didn't disperse, it was something else.


----------



## The World (May 4, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Kishi wrote it pretty clear that the brothers would lose one on one

Especially a non Edo Itachi


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 4, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> And he pulled it out. As soon as everything was done, we saw it slowing affecting Orochimaru's arms. And Hiruzen lived long enough for a speech after it despite his soul being sealed which means death. Darui was being sealed, then he wasn't. Kabuto is going to be stabbed and requirement met, then he liquifiy's and it's not met. He won't get sucked up because he will never be hit and if he does then liquifying does escape. Just quit unless you have 100% proof turning into water won't let him escape, and also prove how he gets hit because every speed feat says otherwise.



That was all plot, to give us the explanation of what happened, because he sealed the first and second literally the next panel after the death god cut there soul reread the whole chapter.


Dariu requirement was being met then it changed last minute something you confidently left out your argument.



How will Kabuto liquefying mean the requirement was not ment? Him turning Into a puddle of Poland spring won't change the fact that he was stabbed by the totsuka.


Actually I don't have to prove anything, you made a outrageous claim your going to have to provide proof of it working, which is why I never bothered responding to you the first time, you literally just made your argument up out of nothing.



Itachi kept up with him and hit him various times threw out the whole fight, don't mix sage sensing with speed, something  remsen is obviously doing if he he thinks Kabuto is "tiers" faster.

Sage sensing grants a advantage in terms of dodging and evading, but it can also be overloaded, and he can also be clone feinted like in canon.




The World said:


> I'm pretty sure Kishi wrote it pretty clear that the brothers would lose one on one
> 
> Especially a non Edo Itachi



Kishi made it clear that one on one neither could beat Kabuto, without trying to "kill" him, with killing intent is a entire different story tho.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 4, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> No Fuinjutsu seals, there is no way around this. Jiraiya's sealed Ama with Fuinjutsu, Oro fucked with Naruto's seal, and Jiraiya rerouted it, Kakashi temporarily sealed Sasuke's curse mark, and Oro utilized Fuinjutsu to create CS. All Fuinjutsu encompasses the sealing of chakra, or some entity,: yet somehow someone can physically escape this Fuinjutsu? Totsuka does seal the soul, and the body as we saw with Nagato, Oro, and his summon. You have no proof that someone could escape totsuka after being stabbed.



All Fuuinjutsu act as a sealing agent. However you're wrong in asserting they all go about it the same way. Orochimaru did not tamper with Naruto's seal, he added one of his own; same deal with Sasuke and Kakashi.
However none of these Fuuinjutsu are like Totsuka which gives the victim time to give a long speech before being sealed. In Oro's case, a chance to escape. 

There is proof however that Totsuka doesn't act like the other sealing jutsu you outlined. The "you don't have proof" doesn't work for you because you hinge on other Fuuinjutsu for the case and not enough on Totsuka. 



> Yes you are, once Nagato was stabbed Kabuto immediately lost control(meaning his fuinjutsu on Nagato was cancelled), and auto Nagato was motionless. Had that not been the case Kabuto would have opted for counter measures and Auto Nagato would have reacted to being hit, he didn't he spoke his final words to Itachi and got sealed. Orochimaru as you were pouting earlier was so confident the sword didn't do shit, he then immediately realized that he was fucked as he couldn't escape. For one Oro despite being able to tank the hit, was completely stopped in his speech by being stabbed so the strike no doubt causes severe injury, there is absolutely no reason to believe one could wiggle out of the spiritual sword, none at all.




Kabuto lost control, Nagato did not. Furthermore this entire case falls apart because it fails to acknowledge the Edo Tensei limitation - Edos couldn't attack one-another - and the fact Nagato himself wouldn't have attacked anyway. 

Orochimaru, he realised it was not in the best position because he spent more time talking than escape. Even then he managed to escape. Hence those many snakes. 
There's no way around it, Totsuka didn't do Oro in, Amaterasu did. 

Namesake doesn't mean much. If you're going to hinge on misquotations and myth. Then I must say that Kabuto steamrolls Itachi because the manga said he is closest to the Rikudou Sennin. On top of that, he's not holding anything back now. Even more so, Itachi is weaker ITT and lacks superior back up.



> -Also your example with obito is piss poor. A. It is a horrible argument to bring up different weapons, and a completely irrelevant top tier, and correlate his decision not to utilize them, with Susano's weapons. It makes no sense. Furthermore your assesment fails to incorporate the fact that a top tier like Obito did want spiritual weapons, like the pot he so desperately wanted to gain.



You can't be calling arguments piss poor when your entire case hinges on generalising other Fuuinjutsu to Tosuka and simple names. 

Your stance overall doesn't consider Kabuto's command that under his control, Edos couldn't attack other Edos. Further that we clearly saw Orochimaru's snakes out. 
In other words, Totsuka isn't an instant game ender and Itachi needs another method. 'Cause if he's so reliant on Totsuka, then this fight is as good as lost for him.


----------



## Remsengan (May 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He can't disperse once sealed.
> And when did Kabuto instantly disperse?



I'll repost it here.  Notice the surprise marks from both Sasuke and Itachi.  Kabuto managed to, if not instantly, very quickly disperse in such a fashion that neither of the Uchiha brothers could stop him from doing it even as a Susano'o hand was in mid grasp.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> They can't liqufy instantly either.



Why not?  It takes no seals and Suigetsu could do it even without willing so.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Evidence ?



There are a couple frames whereas his speaking appear to be coming from different snakes.  Also, he says "my" perceptual ability has increased, which is noticeable because all the snakes dodge.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> We don't know how quickly Orochimaru could form through that snake. Or we don't know if he was capable of casually reforming either.
> So this is a moot point.



We could just assume that Orochimaru couldn't, and assert that Kabuto can.  It still shows that Kabuto is in much better shape against Kabuto than Orochimaru was.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because he dispersed into many different snakes and Itachi didn't want Sasuke to go after him without knowing whether it was a trap or not.
> And he didn't disperse, it was something else.



Care to be more specific than 'something else'?  We see him in the robe, and next there are many snakes under that robe.  Either only one of the snakes is "him", or "he" is all the snakes.  Given that Orochimaru was comprised of snakes, and Kabuto is a whole other level on top of that...is it really hard to say that Kabuto dispersed into snakes?  There is more evidence for it than against it.

And if Itachi was weary about pursuing Kabuto as a 2 man team, it just goes to support that he will be yet more cautious by himself, especially since he isn't edo.


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## Dr. White (May 4, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > All Fuuinjutsu act as a sealing agent. However you're wrong in asserting they all go about it the same way. Orochimaru did not tamper with Naruto's seal, he added one of his own; same deal with Sasuke and Kakashi.
> > However none of these Fuuinjutsu are like Totsuka which gives the victim time to give a long speech before being sealed. In Oro's case, a chance to escape.
> 
> 
> ...


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## IchLiebe (May 5, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:
> 
> 
> > -Yes all Fuinjutsu seal, which is why it takes extreme measures to break said seal ala another fuinjutsu, the only direct escape we have from fuinjutsu is Orochimaru(who only escaped because Hiruzen was worn, and had to seal two other souls) and Madara who besides being one of the strongest Top Tiers could only release himself with a specific jutsu to break Et. No one has used a a jutsu that enhances durability to escape a fuinjutsu
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2013)

Dr White, your argument with Totsuka isn't very persuasive for the reason I mentioned in my first response to you: you're generalising the instant-seal nature of _other_ sealing jutsu to Totsuka. Whilst not acknowledging that Totsuka, unlike other sealing jutsu, gave both foes time to make a long speech. In fact no matter how we rationalise it, while being sealed Orochimaru did manage to escape (only to be done in by Amaterasu).

With Nagato, the many factors (limitations on himself vs the trio) that were against him was also the reason that he didn't simply repel or absorb Totsuka. Big factors being Edos can't attack other Edos and he wouldn't attack willingly.

In other words: Itachi has to rely on other things than Totsuka to stand a chance. It Totsuka was more like Sasuke's Enton: Kagutsuchi sword, then I'd agree with you that it is an instant game ender. Seeing as if Kabuto escapes that, Sasuke can simply spatially recompose the flames to get him.


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## The World (May 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I give up because you're arguement is pretty stupid. You say that Totsuka will automaticallly seal anything, and I will quote words from the user of totsuka," Every jutsu has a weakness."




Tell that to Edo Tensei


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2013)

The World said:


> Tell that to Edo Tensei



Madara told us the weakness.


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## Dr. White (May 5, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Dr White, your argument with Totsuka isn't very persuasive for the reason I mentioned in my first response to you: you're generalising the instant-seal nature of _other_ sealing jutsu to Totsuka. Whilst not acknowledging that Totsuka, unlike other sealing jutsu, gave both foes time to make a long speech. In fact no matter how we rationalise it, while being sealed Orochimaru did manage to escape (only to be done in by Amaterasu).
> 
> With Nagato, the many factors (limitations on himself vs the trio) that were against him was also the reason that he didn't simply repel or absorb Totsuka. Big factors being Edos can't attack other Edos and he wouldn't attack willingly.
> 
> In other words: Itachi has to rely on other things than Totsuka to stand a chance. It Totsuka was more like Sasuke's Enton: Kagutsuchi sword, then I'd agree with you that it is an instant game ender. Seeing as if Kabuto escapes that, Sasuke can simply spatially recompose the flames to get him.



So basically I can't logically refute your points individually, so I'm gonna make some general argument that has already been refuted, and try and call the opposing arguments lacking?

Concession accepted.


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## IchLiebe (May 5, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> So basically I can't logically refute your points individually, so I'm gonna make some general argument that has already been refuted, and try and call the opposing arguments lacking?
> 
> Concession accepted.



When you say "concession accepted" and no one conceded, it makes you look like an annoying bitch. Why have so many people started doing this? It's like you're trying to start shit.

We showed why totsuka won't work, you said it's a sealing jutsu so it'll seal him no matter what. Yet Itachi said it had a weakness. No way it will even land and if it does there's a way to escape. No one conceded, no one will so just let this thread end.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2013)

If Kabuto is stabbed with the Totsuka no Tsurugi, it's going to seal him.

He wasn't able to liquify his dick snake in time to melt through Sasuke's Kusanagi and escape Itachi running at him. He would most likely not be able to get away with a bigass spirit sword jammed through his chest.


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## IchLiebe (May 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Kabuto is stabbed with the Totsuka no Tsurugi, it's going to seal him.
> 
> He wasn't able to liquify his dick snake in time to melt through Sasuke's Kusanagi and escape Itachi running at him. He would most likely not be able to get away with a bigass spirit sword jammed through his chest.



You mean when he used it like a swing, and then stabbed Itachi. He had a clear reason why not to then and got out when he wanted.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> You mean when he used it like a swing, and then stabbed Itachi. He had a clear reason why not to then and got out when he wanted.



Except Kabuto wasn't able to get out "when he wanted." That's why he went reaching for Sasuke's sword, so that he could cut himself free.

And he can't exactly cut himself free when his torso is _impaled_.


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## Dr. White (May 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> When you say "concession accepted" and no one conceded, it makes you look like an annoying bitch. Why have so many people started doing this? It's like you're trying to start shit.
> 
> We showed why totsuka won't work, you said it's a sealing jutsu so it'll seal him no matter what. Yet Itachi said it had a weakness. No way it will even land and if it does there's a way to escape. No one conceded, no one will so just let this thread end.



Because I spent time actually refuting his individual points with arguments backed by manga evidence. To this I keep receiving the same old drawn out unsupported answers from MunBoy, he even skips over certain parts he wishes not to respond to that would thwart his whole logic(such as Orochimaru never directly escaping and needing Sasuke to revive him), on top of the fact that he never satisfied the burden of proof as to why Liquificaition could possibly save Kabuto.

Kishimoto in its debut straight out said "anything or anyone it touches or pierces will be sealed via an incredible Fuinjutsu/Genjutsu combo" The only ceonceivable possible way to counter would be via another Fuinjutsu.

Suigetsu's liquidifcation allows him to bypass physical attacks, as it makes his body completely liquid, but this only works against brute force attacks, things like Amaterasu(which will burn for a week) and Totsuka(which seals) will butt fuck him.

This is like you trying to say that because Orochimaru escaped Shiki Fujin(only because Hiruzen died sealing the two hokage Edo) that anyone physically stronger than Oro can ecscape the Death God


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## IchLiebe (May 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Except Kabuto wasn't able to get out "when he wanted." That's why he went reaching for Sasuke's sword, so that he could cut himself free.
> 
> And he can't exactly cut himself free when his torso is _impaled_.



So let me get this right...Itachi gets cut in half and Izanami gets used 7 pages later and he planned it. Kabuto gets an arrow through his snake and goes for the sword and stabs Itachi the next page and no way he planned it. And Kabuto even showed he could liquify through it yet it didn't plan anything. This is the man who tricked Kakashi...let me repeat that, THE MAN THAT TRICKED HATAKE KAKASHI. And yet you think he didn't plan ahead.

Quit with the double standards please, it's fucking annoying.


----------



## IchLiebe (May 5, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Because I spent time actually refuting his individual points with arguments backed by manga evidence. To this I keep receiving the same old drawn out unsupported answers from MunBoy, he even skips over certain parts he wishes not to respond to that would thwart his whole logic(such as Orochimaru never directly escaping and needing Sasuke to revive him), on top of the fact that he never satisfied the burden of proof as to why Liquificaition could possibly save Kabuto.



We said he escaped Totsuka, HE DID. Sasuke had to revive him because of AMATERASU. Come now, don't play stupid.

Liquid...Sword...I wonder how the fuck turning water can ever escape a sword. And yes I was being a smartass.



> Kishimoto in its debut straight out said "anything or anyone it touches or pierces will be sealed via an incredible Fuinjutsu/Genjutsu combo" The only ceonceivable possible way to counter would be via another Fuinjutsu.



Don't leave out part of the sentece, I'll finish what you said. "anyone and anything it pierces will become trapped in a blissful dreamlike genjutsu for all eternity...*OR SO THE LEGEND GOES*." Orochimaru got out so that goes out the boat huh.



> Suigetsu's liquidifcation allows him to bypass physical attacks, as it makes his body completely liquid, but this only works against brute force attacks, things like Amaterasu(which will burn for a week) and Totsuka(which seals) will butt fuck him.



So he can escape totsuka but not the sealing jutsu. Execpt the sword can only seal what's pierced and if it escapes before the seal starts, as we showed it takes time, then they escape.



> This is like you trying to say that because Orochimaru escaped Shiki Fujin(only because Hiruzen died sealing the two hokage Edo) that anyone physically stronger than Oro can ecscape the Death God



I don't understand what you're saying here.


----------



## αce (May 5, 2013)

So basically the argument is that Totsuka _can't_ seal Kabuto because it has a weakness, like all jutsu's - yet you don't specify what that said weakness is, but instead, you assume that Kabuto has the ability to exploit this already unexplained fault in Totsuka's abilities because.... well he can _liquify_ and thus you attribute this ability as something that can overcome Totsuka to suit your original notion.

Yeah, stupid argument. Totsuka will seal anything it cuts. The question isn't whether it can, the question is whether or not it will hit Kabuto.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> So let me get this right...Itachi gets cut in half and Izanami gets used 7 pages later and he planned it.



Getting cut in half had nothing to do with Izanami. Itachi was simply caught off-guard and blitzed because of Snake Bulimia/Oral Rebirth and his convenient deactivation of his own Susano'o when he was about to activate Izanami.



> Kabuto gets an arrow through his snake and goes for the sword and stabs Itachi the next page and no way he planned it.



Pretty much.

Itachi didn't attack Kabuto until the latter reached for the sword and Sasuke blurted out what he was trying to do. Kabuto just took advantage of the opportunity to stab Itachi...which was actually Itachi taking advantage of the opportunity to troll Kabuto into setting-up Izanami (stabbing Itachi's clone was the beginning of the loop).



> And Kabuto even showed he could liquify through it yet it didn't plan anything.



Do we have any indication that Kabuto planned it other than you speculating that he might have planned it? No? Okay then.



> This is the man who tricked Kakashi...let me repeat that, THE MAN THAT TRICKED HATAKE KAKASHI. And yet you think he didn't plan ahead.



Kabuto's tactical capability is wildly inconsistent. His record during the war arc hasn't exactly been stellar, if you catch my meaning.

Incidentally, I don't think any amount of smarts would keep someone from getting tricked by something they simply have no knowledge of. Smart as Kakashi is, he had no idea Kabuto could use Shikon no Jutsu, which is what I'm assuming you're referring to. By that same logic, Itachi tricked Kabuto with Izanami, so he must have been the one planning everything. It doesn't work like that (although Izanami obviously was planned, to some extent).



> Quit with the double standards please, it's fucking annoying.



You're doing most of this to yourself by putting words in my mouth.


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## Dr. White (May 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> > We said he escaped Totsuka, HE DID. Sasuke had to revive him because of AMATERASU. Come now, don't play stupid.
> 
> 
> No he did not directly fucking escape the sword. He was trapped in the bottle, point blank. He needed someone to find some DNA of his(that he had pre stored) to revive him from his slumber. The 2nd party source of awakening him makes it an indirect escape, meaning nobody can directly fucking escape Totsuka....
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Kabuto is stabbed with the Totsuka no Tsurugi, it's going to seal him.
> 
> He wasn't able to liquify his dick snake in time to melt through Sasuke's Kusanagi and escape Itachi running at him. He would most likely not be able to get away with a bigass spirit sword jammed through his chest.



Such a thing is easy to sense. Last I checked, Kabuto was able to react to anything and everything Itachi did due to the sage sensing. Cutting the horn was dismissed by Kabuto saying he simply forgot he had horns.


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## IchLiebe (May 5, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> IchLiebe said:
> 
> 
> > No he did not directly fucking escape the sword. He was trapped in the bottle, point blank. He needed someone to find some DNA of his(that he had pre stored) to revive him from his slumber. The 2nd party source of awakening him makes it an indirect escape, meaning nobody can directly fucking escape Totsuka....
> ...


----------



## IchLiebe (May 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Getting cut in half had nothing to do with Izanami. Itachi was simply caught off-guard and blitzed because of Snake Bulimia/Oral Rebirth and his convenient deactivation of his own Susano'o when he was about to activate Izanami.



I've seen you say he planned it but whatever.



> Pretty much.
> 
> Itachi didn't attack Kabuto until the latter reached for the sword and Sasuke blurted out what he was trying to do. Kabuto just took advantage of the opportunity to stab Itachi...which was actually Itachi taking advantage of the opportunity to troll Kabuto into setting-up Izanami (stabbing Itachi's clone was the beginning of the loop).



Why would he cut off his tail when he can liquify out of it? Tell me please because it sounds pretty fucking stupid.



> Do we have any indication that Kabuto planned it other than you speculating that he might have planned it? No? Okay then.



The him being able to get out of the arrow, him telling Itachi not to fret after stabbing him. 



> Kabuto's tactical capability is wildly inconsistent. His record during the war arc hasn't exactly been stellar, if you catch my meaning.
> 
> Incidentally, I don't think any amount of smarts would keep someone from getting tricked by something they simply have no knowledge of. Smart as Kakashi is, he had no idea Kabuto could use Shikon no Jutsu, which is what I'm assuming you're referring to. By that same logic, Itachi tricked Kabuto with Izanami, so he must have been the one planning everything. It doesn't work like that (although Izanami obviously was planned, to some extent).



I'm saying that there's no way he was going for the sword to cut off his tail when he could liquify out of it at anytime.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Such a thing is easy to sense. Last I checked, Kabuto was able to react to anything and everything Itachi did due to the sage sensing. Cutting the horn was dismissed by Kabuto saying he simply forgot he had horns.



And yet Itachi was able to parry Kabuto's chakra scalpel with an ordinary sword and _stab his dick snake directly with the Totsuka_ right after breaking out of Mugen Onsa. Itachi was also able to surround him and restrict his movement with a Magatama spam, too. Kabuto's ability to evade Itachi is not perfect and that's why he's going to lose; he can only keep dodging for so long before Itachi hits him. It's just a matter of finding the right opportunity.



IchLiebe said:


> I've seen you say he planned it but whatever.



You're either mistaken or I was trolling at the time.

I'm gonna assume the former, because my trolls are more creative than that.

Either way, I'm not espousing that now.



> Why would he cut off his tail when he can liquify out of it? Tell me please because it sounds pretty fucking stupid.



Based on what we saw, Kabuto's ability to liquify is not on the same level as Suigetsu's. He can do it, but he is not as good at it.

Look at the time he attacked Itachi and Sasuke with snakes at the beginning of the fight; Itachi grabbed them with Susano'o and they began to drip through its hands, but they didn't liquify instantly the way Suigetsu does when he is attacked. Kabuto's version of the ability looked more like melting than liquification:

here

It may not even be the exact same ability, since Kabuto states that he created it himself after "researching and altering" the Houzuki clan's liquification Jutsu.



> The him being able to get out of the arrow, him telling Itachi not to fret after stabbing him.



Kabuto wasn't able to get out of the arrow in time and I'm not sure how telling Itachi "not to fret" (which sounds like a bad translation anyway) proves that he planned it.



> I'm saying that there's no way he was going for the sword to cut off his tail when he could liquify out of it at anytime.



Then why go for the sword at all before Itachi even did anything? Why not just slip free and go about his business?


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## IchLiebe (May 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> And yet Itachi was able to parry Kabuto's chakra scalpel with an ordinary sword and _stab his dick snake directly with the Totsuka_ right after breaking out of Mugen Onsa. Itachi was also able to surround him and restrict his movement with a Magatama spam, too. Kabuto's ability to evade Itachi is not perfect and that's why he's going to lose; he can only keep dodging for so long before Itachi hits him. It's just a matter of finding the right opportunity.



Not dick snake and not totsuka.



> You're either mistaken or I was trolling at the time.
> 
> I'm gonna assume the former, because my trolls are more creative than that.
> 
> Either way, I'm not espousing that now.



Okay...



> Based on what we saw, Kabuto's ability to liquify is not on the same level as Suigetsu's. He can do it, but he is not as good at it.
> 
> 
> > Look at the time he attacked Itachi and Sasuke with snakes at the beginning of the fight; Itachi grabbed them with Susano'o and they began to drip through its hands, but they didn't liquify instantly the way Suigetsu does when he is attacked. Kabuto's version of the ability looked more like melting than liquification:
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> And yet Itachi was able to parry Kabuto's chakra scalpel with an ordinary sword and _stab his dick snake directly with the Totsuka_ right after breaking out of Mugen Onsa. Itachi was also able to surround him and restrict his movement with a Magatama spam, too. Kabuto's ability to evade Itachi is not perfect and that's why he's going to lose; he can only keep dodging for so long before Itachi hits him. It's just a matter of finding the right opportunity.



There was Sasuke over there. Furthermore sensing a single foe is more troublesome than focusing all that sensing on one foe. 

The thing is, without Sasuke there the right opportunity may not crop up for Itachi.


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## joshhookway (May 24, 2013)

How Does itachi deal with Kayuyu though?


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## Baroxio (May 24, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> How Does itachi deal with Kayuyu though?


I think you mean Tayuya, and the answer is the thing everybody seems to forget he has access to despite using it in every battle: clones.

If Itachi has a single clone out then he can counter Tayuya's sound genjutsu the way the Uchiha bros countered it in canon.

Senpo: Hakugeki was countered in canon by Itachi with no previous knowledge.

Senpo: Muki Tensei was reacted to by Itachi with no previous knowledge, and here he has nobody to babysit. Plus, the technique is hard countered by Amaterasu, which Itachi now knows.

Sawarbi no Mai was cut up by Itachi's Base Susano sword easily with no damage.

Kidomaru's webs can be burned, as they were in canon.

In other words, Itachi has a canon counter to every one of Kabuto's techniques, and unlike in said canon, now has knowledge on how each techniques is employed and what to do to stop it.

In comparison, Kabuto has yet to canonically deal with Totsuka, or an Amaterasu aimed straight at him, but we can extrapolate that he should be able to deal with the latter using Orochimaru's abilities. Evading the former should also be possible with his reaction speeds, but doing so from close range, repeatedly is not likely possible for anybody, especially considering that unlike an arrow a sword can change direction.

In conclusion, at first it would seem like the battle could go either way, perhaps favoring Kabuto due to his far greater stamina. However, since Itachi has not only canonically reacted to and countered all of Kabuto's techniques _without_ prior knowledge of them, but has shown he can outright *pre-empt* Kabuto when it comes to jutsu execution, with knowledge it is Itachi who can completely control the flow of the battle and get the win.

*tl;dr? *

Itachi has canonically defeated or shown the ability to defeat all of Kabuto's jutsu without knowledge on any of them.
Itachi now has full knowledge on all of Kabuto's jutsu.
Itachi's jutsu can pre-empt and interrupt Kabuto's jutsu.
Itachi controls the match for the win.

As long as knowledge conditions are equal (Both teams have full knowledge/Both teams have no knowledge) and there isn't any "can't kill him or X will happen" bullshit then Itachi is favored to win this match for the reasons I've given above (in the case of no knowledge, genjutsu GG).


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## Grimm6Jack (May 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If you remove Izanami and Sasuke, then you only get Itachi vs Kabuto. Going by how things, went, I would have to say Kabuto wins very comfortably. This is because without Sasuke to save and provide massive firepower, I don't see Itachi doing as well.
> 
> For instance, dealing with Kidomaru's webs at the same time as Kimimaro's bones wouldn't be too easy. And getting caught in Tayuya's Genjutsu would be the end of Itachi given that there's no back up to get him out of it.
> Though I do see Kabuto winning with Hakigeki coupled with Muki Tensei.



Great post. I have nothing more to add here. It was painfully obvious that if Itachi didn't had Izanami and if he wasn't an Edo and didn't had Sasuke, he would've lost to Kabuto.

I don't really see much of a debate here actually.


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## Baroxio (May 25, 2013)

Grimm6Jack said:


> Great post. I have nothing more to add here. It was painfully obvious that if Itachi didn't had Izanami and if he wasn't an Edo and didn't had Sasuke, he would've lost to Kabuto.
> 
> I don't really see much of a debate here actually.





You're totally right you know.

If Itachi didn't have Izanami, Sasuke, or his Edo Tensei body, and if Kabuto came into the battle with full knowledge on Itachi's techniques whereas Itachi had no knowledge on his own techniques, and if on top of that Itachi wasn't allowed to kill him and in fact had to capture him alive as opposed to Kabuto who can use anything available to him, then yeah, Kabuto would definitely win, and Itachi would definitely fail.

There really isn't much debate in that discussion.

...

Except you know, that's not the discussion we're having.


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## joshhookway (May 25, 2013)

Clones don't help as Kabuto's genjutsu affects all that hears it. Amaterasu is useless against White Rage as Itachi can't see anything.


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## Rocky (May 25, 2013)

Nearly all arguments for Kabuto overlook Itachi's Jutsu execution speed. Not just the rapid-paced offense the Mangekyou brings to the table, but his inhuman seal speed.

Now that Itachi has _knowledge_, he won't sit there like an infant in awe as Kabuto launches attack after attack at him. If Kabuto goes to do something, Itachi will read and interrupt with the Sharingan and any Ninjutsu of choice respectively. He even started to do _just this_ while Kabuto was stuck in the Izanami loop.

Kabuto isn't very good up close, so fighting a, armed Susano'o should be fun. At range, Itachi has the faster techniques. If Kabuto tries to go combo happy, Amaterasu would force him to either stop what he's doing and deal with it, or burn to death. 

All Itachi really has to watch for his Mugen Onsa anyway. There's arguments for Kabuto, but with Itachi being able to read his moves and intercept with faster techniques.....well the only good one I see is attrition. Attrition, while viable, isn't exactly a walk in the park to pull off against the super duper efficient Itachi when you don't have a full-proof defense.


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## joshhookway (May 25, 2013)

SM Kabuto is much faster than itachi in close quarters.


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## Baroxio (May 25, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Clones don't help as Kabuto's genjutsu affects all that hears it.



Itachi's clones can cast genjutsu. 

How did Itachi and Sasuke escape Tayuya's genjutsu? By casting genjutsu on themselves. 

Ergo, Itachi and a clone capable of genjutsu can free themselves just as easily as Itachi and Sasuke freed themselves.

That's not difficult to understand, is it?



joshhookway said:


> Amaterasu is useless against White Rage as Itachi can't see anything.



Amaterasu is much faster than White Rage, so White Rage isn't a counter. 

Unless you are saying that a full knowledge Itachi will waste an Amaterasu on a Wite Rage when no knowledge Itachi didn't, then...



joshhookway said:


> SM Kabuto is much faster than itachi in close quarters.



This is kinda blatantly untrue considering how many times they clashed fairly evenly. 

The only time you could even attempt to say that there is a speed gap between them because Kabuto hit Itachi, is when Itachi let down his Susano, and said "I will now activate Izanami" despite knowing full well that Izanami would only activate if Kabuto took Sasuke's sword and stabbed him for a second time.

In other words, Itachi was clearly baiting an attack, as his statement of activating Izanami otherwise completely contradicts what we learned about how Izanami activates.


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## BringerOfCarnage (May 28, 2013)

Not getting into this again 

Just want tmention one thing though-
Tayuya's genjutsu, the ONLY THING IMO that'll get Kabuto a decisive win is something he only used when Itachi retreated. That's not going to happen when they're j
in the midst of battle.
Also, Itachi is more than capable of casting Utakata on himself by looking into his finger to free himself.

As for the others potential threats:

Hakugeki-Only other challenge IMO. Itachi has resisted it though. He's probably going to counter ASAP by attacking Kabuto with Amaterasu.

Muki Tensei-Easily dodged, as by Kabuto's own admission, Itachi was looking out for Sasuke.


As for Itachi attacking Kabuto, it's pretty difficult too, especially since Kabuto tailored his defences to specially counter Uchiha.

However, Itachi can get him with Amaterasu (to the face) or Totsuka.

Just pointing the stuff out. Not commenting on the fight itself.


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## Mithos (May 28, 2013)

Flute genjutsu and/or 'White Rage' = GG

Kabuto wins with low difficulty. Itachi has nothing, bar Totsuka, that can take Kabuto out. Genjutsu is countered because he can fight with his eyes closed; Amaterasu is countered by Oral Rebirth; and Itachi's only hope - Totsuka - will fail because Kabuto has shown he can dodge very fast attacks with his sage sense and reflexes. 

Itachi, however, cannot defend himself against the two forementioned techniques - as we saw in the manga.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 28, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> You're totally right you know.
> 
> If Itachi didn't have Izanami, Sasuke, or his Edo Tensei body, and if Kabuto came into the battle with full knowledge on Itachi's techniques whereas Itachi had no knowledge on his own techniques, and if on top of that Itachi wasn't allowed to kill him and in fact had to capture him alive as opposed to Kabuto who can use anything available to him, then yeah, Kabuto would definitely win, and Itachi would definitely fail.
> 
> ...



It is, however, relevant to this discussion. If without all those augmentations (Sasuke, Izanami and an Edo body -- namely Sasuke) Itachi couldn't take Kabuto... 
It has direct implications for Itachi in this match, who cannot use Izanami, doesn't have the benefits of EMS Sasuke and the benefits of Edo Tensei (unlimited chakra and the ability to use Susanoo without any cost).

So in referencing that we can infer that ITT Itachi, who has a 2.5 out of 5 stamina and no Izanami with no back up, doesn't stand much of a chance against Kabuto ITT.


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## Baroxio (May 28, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is, however, relevant to this discussion. If without all those augmentations (Sasuke, Izanami and an Edo body -- namely Sasuke) Itachi couldn't take Kabuto...
> It has direct implications for Itachi in this match, who cannot use Izanami, doesn't have the benefits of EMS Sasuke and the benefits of Edo Tensei (unlimited chakra and the ability to use Susanoo without any cost).
> 
> So in referencing that we can infer that ITT Itachi, who has a 2.5 out of 5 stamina and no Izanami with no back up, doesn't stand much of a chance against Kabuto ITT.


You've missed the entire point of my post.

Yes, in this match unlike the manga, Itachi does not have Izanami, Sasuke, or an Edo Tensei Body.

However, in this match unlike the manga, he DOES have full knowledge on all of Kabuto's techniques, as well as no restriction on his abilities for fear of killing Kabuto and letting the Edo Tensei run rampant.

You cannot point out that this Itachi is missing "X" from his canon fight without also pointing out that this Itachi has "Y" that he didn't have in his canon fight. Not only is it disingenuous, it misses the point of the discussion in the first place.

The discussion lies amongst the intersection of "X" and "Y".

Now, getting back to the discussion, I believe that Itachi's full knowledge on Kabuto's techniques combined with his canonical ability to *pre-empt* Kabuto's seals, his canonical ability to tango with him physically, and his canonical ability to counter each of Kabuto's techniques (with Tayuya's genjutsu being countered via genjutsu-capable clone ninjutsu) gives Itachi the win in this fight.


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## Chad (May 29, 2013)

Are people here delusional? With PIS/CIS off, DSM Kabuto has the necessary arsenal to solo both Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke. Izanami could have been prevented if Kabuto had kept White Rage on the whole match.


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## Rain (May 29, 2013)

Itachi wins via combination of Bunshin and Finger Genjutsu with minimal effort.


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## joshhookway (Jun 30, 2013)

Does the fact that Itachi is an edo make him alleviate some degree of pain to surive white rage? How does alive Itachi deal with white rage?


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