# Tsunade VS 4th Raikage



## IzayaOrihara (Nov 19, 2015)

Location: Sannin Battlefield
Distance: 100 Metres
Conditions: Kill to Win
State of Mind: IC
Knowledge: They know of each other's reputations
Restrictions: None

I know people will say Raikage but 3 things
1) Its been stated Tsunade > Raikage
2) I don't see what Raikage can do to Katsuyu
3) Ranshinshō GG


----------



## Shanal (Nov 19, 2015)

I don't think Tsunade can survive her head being crushed via shunshin blitz, can she?


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 19, 2015)

Tsunade will need to be inside Katsuyu all the fight, or almost all of it. Because she can't do a thing to avoid V2 Ei, who'll just outright blitz her and cut her in half like Trunks cut Frieza.

She has a shot with Rashinsho. But her normal touch is not bypassing Ei's shroud. It's not going to touch Ei's system.


----------



## Ghost (Nov 19, 2015)

Raikage blitzes and one shots.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Ranshinshō is doing fuck all to Raikage.



			
				Ranshinshō said:
			
		

> As soon as strike of the hand lands, electricity is poured into the enemy's nervous system, severing the signals.





			
				Raiton Mode said:
			
		

> The user wraps their body in a layer of lightning chakra which, instead of being used offensively, is used to electrically stimulate the user's nervous system.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 19, 2015)

Fuck, then Ei better go V2 and kill her before she touches him. I still see it under his realm of possibility, considering she won't be able to land a hit on him before she's dead.

But that something that depends on Ei's behaviour.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

Tsunade summons.  
Katsuya melts.
Ei can't run on slug floor.  
Tsunade punches him.
Ei becomes slug fertilizer.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 19, 2015)

Raikage dodges Tsunade's attacks and has the ability to directly attack Tsunade, Tsunade cannot dodge Ei's attacks or engage him in CQC. But even against Tsunade, Ei's not blitzing from 100 metres..


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Ninja can walk on water, right? Regardless, if Tsunade does slug-floor, then she can't run either...


----------



## Ghost (Nov 19, 2015)

Itachі said:


> But even against Tsunade, Ei's not blitzing from 100 metres..



The distance will obviously change once the fight starts. Both fight in CQC.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

Katsuya sticks to people and absorbs them.  It would be slurping Ei, but not Tsunade.  Sort of like , which caught Kakuzu.  

What you said might be a counter, but much like how Kotetsu knew the right way to run on his life partner's syrup and Kakuzu didn't, I think Tsunade would know how to fight with her summon in ways Ei wouldn't.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> What you said might be a counter, but much like how Kotetsu knew the right way to run on his life partner's syrup and Kakuzu didn't, I think Tsunade would know how to fight with her summon in ways Ei wouldn't.



That logic works both ways. This is Raikage. All Raikage does is run. He's likely figured out ways to run over multiple surfaces, because when he cannot run, he's Jirōbō. Like, Gai figured out how to run on the sky.  

Maybe if there's something special about liquid slug that stops chakra walking, it'd stop Raikage, but if Tsunade can run on it, then there probably isn't something special about it. So Raikage is Gucci.  

There's also the lightning armor thing. I dunno if Katsuyu can stick to lightning.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

Katsuya can change her consistency and is selectively permeable.  She's sucked in people, while at other times she's solid enough to lay on.  That's somewhat unique, and quite different from water or any surface Raikage would normally encounter.  Tsunade would know all of this, and her summon wouldn't be trying to hinder her.  

I grant Raikage the ability to run on a lot of surfaces, but I also don't think Raikage has ever run on carnivorous jello before.  He's not Dr. Slugs.  

Besides that, say you're right, and neither can run.  If neither of them can run, speed is equalized, and even if we grant them equal taijutsu, Tsunade hits harder and regenerates.  She'd win in a slugfest, so to speak.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> speed is equalized



Not being able to run is _not_ the same as speed being equalized. Yeah, A wouldn't be able to just lop her head off from 10 meters away before she sees him move, but slug soup isn't slowing down A's perception of movement and taijutsu reflexes. Sasuke did not need to run to see Naruto going in _slow-mo_. Tsunade going in super slow-mo to Raikage. 

On the flip side, Tsunade cannot really see Raikage's taijutsu in time to do anything about it. Unlike Summit Sasuke, Tsunade is not "_wat_" fast. Also unlike Summit Sasuke, Tsunade does not have super Sharingan bullet-time perception. Also also unlike Summit Sasuke, Tsunade does have _psychic _vision. 

What we would have, in this scenario of no running, is Chef Raikage vs Vegetables Tsunade. She cannot hit him, and her fists are not as good as his lightsabers. I also don't want to hear about anticipation. I could beat Floyd Mayweather if I could punch at 200mph and I saw his boxing at 5% speed.


----------



## Guybot2 (Nov 19, 2015)

Well raikage was hesitant to fight tsunade.. That should say something.. 
And when raikage v2 tried to tag naruto.. It look like to me Tsunade could see raikage'a movement..

Tsunade have speed feats people chose to ignore.. It's literally almost impossible to blitz her.. 
Tsunade have insane reaction times and movement speed.. 
She tank pain's "you need to know pain" blast.. In that split second she activated her summoning to save the entire village in one second.. That shit is fast..  She exhausted all her reserve chakra.. Let me tell you that.. She was mile away from pain and naruto.. She show up in middle of naruto and pain without both expert sensors noticing till few seconds later.. All that on low battery.. 

In battle against Marada.. She is keeping up with raikage V2 with onoki powered his speed up.. She is like few seconds slower than raikage.. im not hyping anything but I can say for sure that she is in raikage speed tier.. 
Her healing speed is insane.. She don't really need yin seal to heal herself up.. Just look at how fast she heal shikimari with one finger..  She's h2h monster with medic skills and summon.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

No. To all of that.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Not being able to run is _not_ the same as speed being equalized. Yeah, A wouldn't be able to just lop her head off from 10 meters away before she sees him move, but slug soup isn't slowing down A's perception of movement and taijutsu reflexes. Sasuke did not need to run to see Naruto going in _slow-mo_. Tsunade going in super slow-mo to Raikage.
> 
> On the flip side, Tsunade cannot really see Raikage's taijutsu in time to do anything about it. Unlike Summit Sasuke, Tsunade is not "_wat_" fast. Also unlike Summit Sasuke, Tsunade does not have super Sharingan bullet-time perception. Also also unlike Summit Sasuke, Tsunade does have _psychic _vision.
> 
> What we would have, in this scenario of no running, is Chef Raikage vs Vegetables Tsunade. She cannot hit him, and her fists are not as good as his lightsabers. I also don't want to hear about anticipation. I could beat Floyd Mayweather if I could punch at 200mph and I saw his boxing at 5% speed.



Tsunade was able to act out of the teleport, so her perceptions should be fine.

She also isn't as fast as Madara, but she was fast enough using byako that Madara bubbled in Susano instead of dodging.  Err, if you didn't catch it, Madara uses Susano when he's forced, and not for the lolz.  Evidenced by him not using it against the Alliance until the Onoki/Naruto oodama combo, dodging Mei's lava until he was knocked into it, and normal blocking Ei until his speed was upped.

Ei's actual arm speed, or taijutsu speed outside of crashing his fist through you mid shunshin, never really came across as fast, so much as powerful.  Big punches, wide outstretched chops, big suplexes, that kind of stuff.  Tsunade wasn't drawn that much differently, since her punches and attacks were still full to emphasize her power, but I don't think they'll be imperceptible to either party.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 19, 2015)

Guybot2 said:


> Tsunade have speed feats people chose to ignore.. It's literally almost impossible to blitz her..
> Tsunade have insane reaction times and movement speed..
> In battle against Marada.. She is keeping up with raikage V2 with onoki powered his speed up..
> she is in raikage speed tier..



What the hell?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Tsunade was able to act out of the teleport, so her perceptions should be fine.



I am not sure how that feat has anything to do with visual perception. 

I also don't think you should argue this unless you plan on taking the stance that Tsunade sees things as well as (or anywhere close to) Sharingan Sasuke. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> She also isn't as fast as Madara, but she was fast enough using byako that Madara bubbled in Susano instead of dodging.



I didn't think I'd here the "Tsunade blitzed Madara" thing from you. 

What you said is contradictory anyway. If she's not as fast as Madara, then she can't cross a distance and punch Madara before he steps to the side. Or jumps. Or starts running the other way (she'd never catch him because she's slower). 

...which is _hard_ proof that he used Susanoo for the lolz.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Ei's actual arm speed, or taijutsu speed outside of crashing his fist through you mid shunshin, never really came across as fast, so much as powerful.



I beg to differ. What he did against Zetsu in base (ie. Zetsu's reaction) should imply that he's pretty quick without lightning bolt body flickers.

Maybe his taijutsu would have came across as faster if he wasn't fighting another speedster with psychic vision. His taijutsu is, _ at the very least_, even with v1 B's. That is >>> Tsunade.

It's not so much that she can't see his taijutsu movements at all, mind you. It's that she can't see them _in time to do anything about them. _


----------



## rubberguy (Nov 19, 2015)

Tsunade cannot touch raikage in this fight. The speed n reaction is world apart it's not even funny. And i have never seen tsunade use katsuyu to fight like people do here (sometimes i wonder if tsunade is the summon or the summoner lolz). They might be on the same general level but raikage is just a bad match up.


----------



## Matty (Nov 19, 2015)

I don't see her summoning Katsuyu right away so the distance gets closed and it becomes a CQC match. From there A won't let her even breathe he will constantly put pressure on her. She can't avoid it so she gets obliterated. Not a good matchup for her honestly.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

Meh.  Raikage did the same thing in base.  I don't think it's unreasonable, or that I need to say base Ei and base Tsunade have better perceptions than MS Sasuke.

I don't really consider bubbling to be the same as blitzing.  He obviously reacted, and he wasn't concerned.  It's also possible he just let her punch his ribcage to see what she could do, or Kishi made him use it for the plot, because if he reacted like his did to her kick out of teleport or to Raikage's punch he'd explode and then we wouldn't get a cool combo.

But it puts me in a weird situation if I start completely writing off every feat as an outlier or plot induced jank, because she doesn't have a plethora of feats to choose from, and the narrative purpose of those feats was to give her hype and credit and focus, and she's supposed to have a high standing both within the universe, and among her peers.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I am not sure how that feat has anything to do with visual perception.



Considering how fast Tenso no Jutsu is (lightspeed) she wouldn't have seen Madara until _after_ she and Ay appeared in front of Madara and Mu, at which point they were _already_ close to each other and still closing in fast, yet she _still_ threw a kick in time instead of just colliding with him.

There's also Tsunade moving before Raikage's punch landed on Naruto...Sasuke probably could have done that, too.

In most cases it just wouldn't matter because Ay is so durable and freakishly strong that he'd kill the enemy anyway, unless they could get out of his reach (which most can't).


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 19, 2015)

A keeps killing her until Tsunade can't regen anymore.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Considering how fast Tenso no Jutsu is (lightspeed) she wouldn't have seen Madara until _after_ she and Ay appeared in front of Madara and Mu, at which point they were _already_ close to each other and still closing in fast, yet she _still_ threw a kick in time instead of just colliding with him.



Yeah, it's a good reaction feat. She's not a turtle to normal ninja (talking elites). I'm not sure what it means in comparison to A, though. Minato constantly does the same thing out of teleportation, and he has feats that poop all over Tsunade's in that regard. Minato's "nerve transmission speed" is supposedly on par with A's in _base_, so....



FlamingRain said:


> There's also Tsunade moving before Raikage's punch landed on Naruto...Sasuke probably could have done that, too.





I don't know if you're talking about the v2 Shunshin, but by the time Sasuke turned to look for A, the flash-step was over and A was behind Sasuke winding up for a decapitation blow. Sasuke _didn't follow _the movement. 

I doubt that the disparity between Naruto/Sakura & Tsunade (Naruto & Tsunade share a Databook score for what it's worth) in perception is so great that Tsunade can see A when Sakura & Naruto _can't see_ Sasuke. 'Cause remember, Sasuke can't see A even with mega-visual perception.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> There's also Tsunade moving before Raikage's punch landed on Naruto...Sasuke probably could have done that, too.



I don't think Kishi puts much thought into that. Sasuke moved his arm before KCM Minato touched his right shoulder.

But... Minato in KCM should be lightyears above Sasuke in hand-speed.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

He's talking about this.

Ei goes to punch Naruto, and Tsunade starts moving before Naruto does anything.  Then Bee shows up.  Everyone said it was a tragedy.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Look where B was standing too. I'm okay with this; v3 base B confimed.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> He's talking about this.
> 
> Ei goes to punch Naruto, and Tsunade starts moving before Naruto does anything.  Then Bee shows up.  Everyone said it was a tragedy.



But isn't this the same as this?

Sasuke's arm is in an L position, Minato desperately goes to grab the black sphere, Sasuke stretches his arm, Minato still hasn't reached his opposite shoulder.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yeah, it's a good reaction feat. I'm not sure what it means in comparison to A, though.



I was pointing out what it had to do with visual perception.



> I don't know if you're talking about the v2 Shunshin



Here I was talking about Ay's arm speed specifically.

It's Ay's direct movement speed (and huge power) that gets people, Tsunade can react to his fist being thrown at her.



Rocky said:


> Look where B was standing too..



We don't know how soon Bee started moving. It may very well have been before he actually threw the punch.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It's Ay's direct movement speed (and huge power) that gets people, Tsunade can react to his fist being thrown at her.



It is _all three_ my man. His super Raiton Shunshin speed is going to be something most people can't even see. Sasuke's Shunshin in early Part II was nearing that level. Tsunade can probably see his taijutsu, but I don't see why she'd fair any better than Sasuke did against Part I Naruto before he further increased his perception. 

It takes more than barely seeing something (or seeing it at the last second) to respond to it. There's a reason Kishimoto stressed the necessity of the Sharingan when Sasuke was fighting these _cloaked_ _beasts. _ Sasuke is faster and more responsive than Tsunade _without _magic eyes giving him further accelerated perception, let alone with it.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

Evidently Tsunade could see the fight between Naruto and Ei since she could comment on it.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade can probably see his taijutsu, but I don't see why she'd fair any better than Sasuke did against Part I Naruto before he further increased his perception.



Sasuke was probably just more affected by being underwater than Naruto being boosted by the Nine Tails, since on land he _could_ block that same Naruto's swipe. If Tsunade is Sasuke and Raikage is Naruto, Tsunade could throw a strike instead of blocking thanks to her regeneration ability.

In which case she'd be better off than Ay.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Evidently Tsunade could see the fight between Naruto and Ei since she could comment on it.



She was surprised that Naruto could keep up, and you can draw that conclusion from seeing where they end after their flash-steeping stops.

I also don't care too much about spectator feats, because we start breaching 9th Gate Minato territory, and nobody wants that.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> But isn't this the same as this?
> 
> Sasuke's arm is in an L position, Minato desperately goes to grab the black sphere, Sasuke stretches his arm, Minato still hasn't reached his opposite shoulder.



No, because Sasuke's thing happened after the manga became an unsalvageable mess.

What's more interesting is that he could activate Susano, but the manga was already insane by that point.  Sasuke and Naruto being the two worst offenders, most notoriously with speed, but also with every other form of consistency.  If we want to have a conversation that includes both me and reason, we can't talk about Sasuke past the Kabuto fight.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Sasuke was probably just more affected by being underwater than Naruto being boosted by the Nine Tails, since on land he _could_ block that same Naruto's swipe.



Sasuke could block on land because Naruto had to first close the distance. Make no mistake; the problem was his perception of Naruto's movement. Sasuke said this himself.  



FlamingRain said:


> If Tsunade is Sasuke and Raikage is Naruto, Tsunade could throw a strike instead of blocking thanks to her regeneration ability.



One, it's quicker to block than it is to wind up and punch somebody. Two, his strike would get there first and send her flying.

...three, Raikage is not Naruto & Tsunade is not Sasuke, because the gap in visual perception between 2-tome Preskip Sasuke and Tsunade (both rockin' 3.5 btw, which includes no Sharingan) is _astronomically_ smaller than the taijutsu-speed gap between Preskip KN0 and *LIGHTNING SYNAPSE RAIKAGE.*


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> She was surprised that Naruto could keep up, and you can draw that conclusion from seeing where they end after their flash-steeping stops.
> 
> I also don't care too much about spectator feats, because we start breaching 9th Gate Minato territory, and nobody wants that.



What you were talking about was Ei without his V2 flicker having arms swings that are imperceptible to someone who exploited an opening when Madara tilted his head back.  That I disagree with.

If you want to say Tsunade would have a hard time perceiving which direction an attack is coming from when V2 A doing his ring-around-the-rosie shunshin dance, that I'm okay with that.  That's when he's most dangerous, and that's when he moves too fast for Sasuke to swivel his head.  My argument has been that he won't be able to do that on a floor that wants to drag him down, and below that speed, he'll be fast; faster even, but he won't be untouchable, and certainly not imperceptible.  That, I don't feel, is unreasonable.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> What you were talking about was Ei without his V2 flicker having arms swings that are imperceptible to someone who exploited an opening when Madara tilted his head back.  That I disagree with. If you want to say Tsunade would have a hard time perceiving which direction an attack is coming from when V2 A doing his ring-around-the-rosie shunshin dance, that I'm okay with that.



Maybe Rock Lee vs Gaara is still too fresh in my mind after doing the speed breakdown, but why I come off as so asinine is beyond me. 

Databook

*Exams Rock Lee*: 4 

*Exams Gaara:* 2 

*Tsunade:* 3.5 

*Lightning Mode Raikage:* 5++

You don't want to use the Databook? Fine. _What would have happened_ to Sasuke without the Sharingan? He didn't need the super duper perception and clairvoyance? Was it unnecessary? I doubt that it was, and Sasuke's, who is actually fast, doesn't need his Sharingan to see things better than Tsunade. 

I am not quite sure why Raikage needs to become a lightning bijū and use speeds that naturally quick Mangekyō users cannot track to deal with characters that _aren't speedsters at all._ V2 speeds are speeds that blitz characters with MEGA reflexes. Tsunade is not one of those characters.

What is with this misconception that A's natural speed is normal? Is Minato's natural speed normal? How do you think Tsunade would've faired _against a character_ that doesn't even compare to the speed legends?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> imperceptible



By the way, this wasn't even my argument to begin with. His Shunshin is imperceptible. You know, the thing he uses to leave people's vision? 





His fast-taijutsu may or may not be (she should at least be able to see him), but regardless, it is too fast for non-speedsters to actually fight against.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke could block on land because Naruto had to first close the distance.



Raikage will have to do that too if he wants to hit somebody.



> One, it's quicker to block than it is to wind up and punch somebody.



Barely, and since Tsunade can afford to actually take the hit a difference like that shouldn't stop her. Plus she hits hard enough that she could probably skip the wind up and still seriously hurt Ay.



> Two, his strike would get there first and send her flying.



Idk. Madara can move his arms fast enough to block a punch from Ay, yet when he put up a guard once the Kages appeared Tsunade kicked under it. Later Ohnoki-enhanced Ay hit an airborne Susano'o and his hand was still making contact with it when Tsunade kicked it. So...since Tsunade will probably not be airborne, and she is a lot stronger than Ay, she could probably hit him before they're parted by the impact.



> ...three, Raikage is not Naruto & Tsunade is not Sasuke



They're who you brought up, though.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 19, 2015)

Wasn't Madara blinded by the light coming?

I dunno, i think we're underestimating Ei's top speed. When people like Minato cannot physically counter attack without Hiraishin and Kishimoto basically made clear that not everybody can react or dodge Ei.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 19, 2015)

because its IC tsunade wins because of summoning. bloodlusted she gets blitzed


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 19, 2015)

tsunade gets her head chopped off

also l o fucking l at people citing tsunade 'moving' before raikage finished his punch

do people realize that raikage's striking speed IS NOT his movement speed

and how can you tell how far tsunade moved, the only panel is *her bending forwards*


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> No, because Sasuke's thing happened after the manga became an unsalvageable mess.
> 
> What's more interesting is that he could activate Susano, but the manga was already insane by that point.  Sasuke and Naruto being the two worst offenders, most notoriously with speed, but also with every other form of consistency. * If we want to have a conversation that includes both me and reason, we can't talk about Sasuke past the Kabuto fight*.



Hard to argue with that. Especially have to agree with the bolded .


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

So if Kishi ever drew the Tsunade vs Ei fight, do you guys really think he'll draw Ei blitzing Tsunade and killing her in one hit as you guys are saying?


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 19, 2015)

does that matter

when people pull that excuse it's pretty hilarious


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> does that matter
> 
> when people pull that excuse it's pretty hilarious



Yeah sort of. You can come up with certain feats people say aren't possible, but then they happen especially in a story like kishi's which isn't very consistent and then they look silly.

But it doesn't matter one way or the other because tails nardo nearly killed jiraiya


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

It depends on the context of the fight. Why are they fighting?

I don't see Kishimoto drawing Raikage blitzing Exams Naruto and punching his head to nothingness in the actual story, for example.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 19, 2015)

ok so we use the feats we're given

and given the feats ay cuts her in half

to be perfectly honest i don't think even kishi could write a chapter where tsunade actually reacts to v2 ay 

and i don't get your nardo/jiraiya reference

your cleverness is lost on me


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> ok so we use the feats we're given
> 
> and given the feats ay cuts her in half
> 
> ...



Ehh you know, when naruto while training with jiraiya nearly killed him accidentally in his 4 tails form or something (i don't remember lol) and then the tails naruto was wrecking orochimaru later


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 19, 2015)

um

i'm not getting the contradiction?

4-Tails Nardo was wrecking two Sannin who are purported to be equal

that sounds fairly consistent tbh

plus both sannin weren't using their strongest moves (sage mode, hydra)


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

I'm curious about another thing, since my memory is Fuzzy. How do you guys see Hiruzen sarutobi doing against Ei/A/4th raikage



ATastyMuffin said:


> um
> 
> i'm not getting the contradiction?
> 
> ...



Yeah I'm saying it's consistent, but if the senin were losing at that level of speed (even in base) I felt they'd lose to raikage as well


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Jiraiya would get blitzed, but Orochimaru can regenerate.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 19, 2015)

old hiruzen sarutobi? he gets raped

well as i said, they weren't using their strongest moves, so it's hard to tell how they would've performed against kn4 in sage mode, in hydra mode, etc.

imo sm jiraiya defeats kn4 with a combination of frog song and cho odama rasengans

the one feat of hydra is it getting massacred by susanoo so lol

imo sm jiraiya is > orochimaru anyways, though probably not by a terrible amount

but the point is, i wouldn't let their performance against kn4 dictate how they'd do against raikage

they were handicapped, majorly so in jiraiya's case

for me personally, sm jiraiya is >= ay, orochimaru is weaker tho


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Versatile ninja-ish characters like Hiruzen, Jiraiya, and 6th Hokage need unsusual thread setup. Full knowledge, a never-ending forest, 1000m, no line-of-sight. Raikage doesn't stand a chance. Normal conditions like "Sannin Battlefield, 20m" results in characters like that getting ran over. A is a better "tournament-style" fighter.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

So basically Hiruzen types need every advantage given to them or less they lose in a neutral setting. 

Even though hiruzen was considered god of shinobi and the strongest kage while he was alive by a data book he gets stomped by ei if he's in their line of sight? Also, do you guys use the speed stats from the databooks?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

GOS Hiruzen was retconned. Canon Hiruzen gets murdered by A. He has no counter to super speed that we know of. He's one of the slower characters. 

I use Databook stats, but with a grain of salt. It's still a good indicator of general ability in a stat.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> GOS Hiruzen was retconned. Canon Hiruzen gets murdered by A. He has no counter to super speed that we know of. He's one of the slower characters.
> 
> I use Databook stats, but with a grain of salt. It's still a good indicator of general ability in a stat.


I thought his speed, stamina and strength declined with age. Compared to members of his family like Asuma (who in his prime was at a 4.5 in speed, 4.0 in strength).

Edit: Prime Hiruzen I expect to be like 5's all around


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The scenario I was discussing with PoW was when they're both stuck in place (already in melee range).



Oh.

I thought you guys just meant inside the pool of Katsuyu period, which would be way wider than melee range.



> Lightspeed travel did squadoosh to Raikage in _base._ Grazing blows aren't do anything to him, especially if he's wearing armor.



A grazing blow is all it takes for CES to work, but what I actually said was that she could _skip the wind up._



> I'm not quite sure what you see playing out here, but if Raikage puts his fist into Tsunade's forehead, she isn't responding by swinging into him with any kind of meaningful force.



I don't think his swings are so fast, or would send her flying so fast, that she couldn't hit him when it's happening. So what I see playing out here is:

Raikage charges Tsunade across Katsuyu.
Raikage swings and so does Tsunade.
They end up trading shots.



> If she punches towards him before he swings into her.



She needn't do it _before_ he gets there.



> According to the Databook, VotE Sasuke's reflexes are above Tsunade's reflexes because of the 2-tome Sharingan (they have the same speed stat).



I doubt it.

The Sharingan predicts incoming movements by analyzing slight muscle tensions with the enhanced clarity of vision. There is no slo-mo, it only works on things that go at a speed the user can already register to some extent. It's not _that_ different than what Sakura was doing with Sasori's fingers. Tsunade should be able to register more things to some extent to begin with than that Sasuke could, while she also easily trumps him in Taijutsu, anatomical intuition and general intelligence.

Tsunade's perception of movement and timing of her maneuvers > VoTE Sasuke's Sharingan (2 _or_ 3 tomoe) and the timing of his. 

At the same time, Raikage's movement speed and Shunshins _going across Katsuyu_ < Raikage's movement speed and Shunshins on normal ground.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Raikage charges Tsunade across Katsuyu.
> Raikage swings and so does Tsunade.
> They end up trading shots.



Yeah no. They don't have comparable speed. A moves to the side of her punch and chops her arm off the moment she tries. 

You are acting as if A cannot _see and adjust_ to Tsunade's attempted counter-punches. His nervous system is being sped up by lightning, which would include the transmission of visual information from the ocular nerves to the brain. 

Seriously, this is the guy that could see Amaterasu manifest onto his chest with enough time to activate Shunshin. Tsunade will do no better against Lightning Raikage than Sage Mode Minato did against Madara.  



FlamingRain said:


> The Sharingan predicts incoming movements by analyzing slight muscle tensions with the enhanced clarity of vision. There is no slo-mo, it only works on things that go at a speed the user can already register to some extent.



No, that is wrong. Sasuke describes two abilities. First this: 



Notice how there _aren't_ yet projected images of the future. It's the bullet-time slow-mo effect, or in other words, accelerated perception. Sasuke all but confirms this with his very next words:



"I can now see movement that I couldn't see before." 

Moreover, last time I checked, the Curse Seal doesn't predict images of the future. What the Juin _would do_ is accelerate his perception of movement like every other super form in the manga does. A Sharingan user's visual perception gets faster with every new evolution. The 3-tome is no exception.

After that, Sasuke goes on to explain the psychic vision, and we get the panel of the image-projecting power in play. It was something extra. Naruto's movement is slowed _and_ the images are projected, allowing for Sasuke to counter with offense.   



FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade's perception of movement and timing of her maneuvers > VoTE Sasuke's Sharingan (2 _or_ 3 tomoe) and the timing of his.



Only if you completely throw out the Databook score.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> So if Kishi ever drew the Tsunade vs Ei fight, do you guys really think he'll draw Ei blitzing Tsunade and killing her in one hit as you guys are saying?



this is the battledome where characters go all out and the fights are realistic. Theres no plot, no character induced stupidity, no kishimoto to nerf or boost characters.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Tbh, the slow-mo perception thing has shown up outside of VotE. Minato vs Obito portrayed it pretty well, with Minato seeing Obito's hand go slow enough so that he knew exactly when to activate Hiraishin.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

Oh well. Thank god the one piece battledome isn't like this. It'd so weird to see people saying gear 2/4 luffy or kizaru speed blitz whitebeard and he won't be able to do shit


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

Whitebeard is faster than both of them. Unless you mean Lightspeed Kizaru, but that's like teleportation iirc.


----------



## trance (Nov 20, 2015)

Ei blitzes.


----------



## Amol (Nov 20, 2015)

OT : Raikage wins after a High diff fight. He can't one shot Tsunade her due to her freakish endurance and regeneration. Tsunade may or may not manage to land counter attack on him(like when his hand is inside her). She has enough strength to make that one attack count.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Oh well. Thank god the one piece battledome isn't like this. It'd so weird to see people saying gear 2/4 luffy or kizaru speed blitz whitebeard and he won't be able to do shit


Ikr.
But to be honest Naruto powerlevels are fucked up in 100 different ways. Frankly Kishi stopped caring about logic when he wrote those fights. Not to mention shitloads of retcons.
In One Piece stats are linear. If character A and character B are in same tier(regardless who is stronger) then they have comparable stats in every single category especially *reflexes*. No one one shots other.
Otherwise Kizaru would have solo'd rest of the OPverse by himself.  


Rocky said:


> Whitebeard is faster than both of them. Unless you mean Lightspeed Kizaru, but that's like teleportation iirc.



He is not . Whitebeard is a stationary fighter. He doesn't move around much in his fight. He does however has great reflexes.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Maybe Rock Lee vs Gaara is still too fresh in my mind after doing the speed breakdown, but why I come off as so asinine is beyond me.
> 
> Databook
> 
> ...



This gets into what I said about the sharingan advantaged dimishing in comparison to other high tiers.  Onoki was re-actively changing Ei's weight pre-strike, which means perceiving the world at V3 speeds.  If you have to ask me how he did that without sharingan slow mo and precog, or experience with natural speeds close to that, I'll have to say it's just because he's an experienced kage who specializes in ninjutsu.  Or experienced high tier ninja can have perceptions and reflexes to act within their specialty that far exceed their other physical movements.  So Onoki can react with weight jutsu faster than he can move, and Mei can react with ninjutsu faster than she can otherwise move to time lava shots between Ei's flickers, and Tsunade can react with and read taijutsu faster than she can otherwise run.

On movement, we also have to take into account byako being super enhancing chakra, and that there's the "Sakura method," no doubt learned from Tsunade, of using chakra to enhance your body movements mentioned by F/R in another thread.  With regular chakra Tsunade should be able to move well past her 3.5, and with byako's super enhancing chakra, she should shoot very far up in speed.  If we accept that, a lot more of her feats, and aspects of the manga make sense.  Even some of the wonkier things later in the war arc, which I won't get into because it's still crazy, become somewhat more tolerable.



Rocky said:


> It depends on the context of the fight. Why are they fighting?
> 
> I don't see Kishimoto drawing Raikage blitzing Exams Naruto and punching his head to nothingness in the actual story, for example.



Naruto would be saved by someone right before Ei's fist crashes through his head.  The same way he was saved by Bee right before Ei's fist crashed through his head when Ei said he'd kill Naruto, or how Jiraiya summoned a frog to block Kisame's strike.



> You are acting as if A cannot see and adjust to Tsunade's attempted counter-punches. His nervous system is being sped up by lightning, which would include the transmission of visual information from the ocular nerves to the brain.



Well, except that Sasuke ducked under him and poked him with chidori, and he didn't adjust his missed punch that crushed a boulder, and he didn't adjust to get around Juugo's guard, and he didn't adjust to avoid Suigetsu's defence of Sasuke, and he didn't adjust to get under Madara's guard, or adjust to bypass Naruto's guard, try to shift his momentum after he whiffed against Minato either time.  His attacks are always heavy and dedicated, and aim to crush whatever intercepts while his durable body and armor guard against reprisal.  If he's capable of doing what you say, he doesn't ever do it, and that's a good enough reason to assume he won't.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 20, 2015)

Well , Iam pretty sure that Kishi will never draw fights as MS Sasuke vs Tsunade , Hiruzen , and so because they will be blized in one shot du to extrem speed . 
And Raikage is on the same situation , Tsunade can't handle his super V2 Shunshin and she can't touch hi in V1 , she is naturally slower than Sasuke and doesn't have Sharingan to predict his moves nor advanced Taijutsu skills . This fight is really one sided .


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 20, 2015)

I keep saying it. Raikage was on Minato's face and the man only could respond with Hiraishin.

I seriously don't see Tsunade counter attacking at all. Especially considering Ei won't dash, stop in front of her to ask her for the time, and then punch knowing reputation. He'd try to dash through like he did to Minato, Obito and Naruto.

Three guys massively faster and reflexive than her who couldn't respond with physical movement. Aside from Naruto's shunshing, and him dodging the Raikage was like a "_Holy sh*t!_" moment Not a "_Meh, a 3.5 speedy character can do the same, nothing special, Naruto_".


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> This gets into what I said about the sharingan advantaged dimishing in comparison to other high tiers.



That's just an excuse. You can say the psychic vision hasn't been illustrated consistently, but I don't know how many times Kishimoto has to stress the Sharingan being essential in seeing high speeds for people to realize you cannot do it because lolkage. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> If you have to ask me how he did that without sharingan slow mo and precog, or experience with natural speeds close to that, I'll have to say it's just because he's an experienced kage who specializes in ninjutsu.



Hey, have you ever heard of plot? 

How about we stop bringing up spectator or team-attack combination feats. You want to use those, we end up with: V1 Darui, 9th Gate Kunai & Minato, 6th Gate Kakashi, Kamui-level Sand Wall, and Above-Jesus Sakura. 

I want statements from the manga that suggests Tsunade sees as well as Sharingan speedsters, not team-attack feats which can be used to argue that Gaara blocks 8th Gate Gai.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> If he's capable of doing what you say, he doesn't ever do it, and that's a good enough reason to assume he won't.



What is the difference between everyone that Raikage has punched and Tsunade? What if A, who typically _doesn't_ care about evading counters _because_ of his superior strength and durability, _wanted_ to evade Tsunade _because_ she can overpower him?

How about this; Show me Tsunade "trading hits" (while being struck) with somebody as fast as A.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yeah no. They don't have comparable speed.



They don't have to have comparable speed in order for Tsunade to be able to strike when Ay does. Ay and Taka Sasuke didn't have comparable speed that time they ran at each other and _Ay was the one who took the hit_, neither did A3 and Dodai when he cast that Yoton and pulled Naruto through it.

Here unlike in most cases Ay is trying to move through boss slug to even get to his target (he would also be doing that if he tried to get away), so he will not be going nearly as fast as is normally possible, and on top of that Tsunade will also have less moving to do than Sasuke (or Dodai) did since she can actually afford to take Ay's blow in order to land her own.

It does not matter if Raikage can see Tsunade or not because it is not physically possible for him to _both_ advance towards Tsunade (necessary to attack) and move away from her at the same time, especially when he's being carried by the force of his own heavy strike being thrown (which, again, is the moment I'm seeing Tsunade time her response to, not before). He's not stopping himself, avoiding Tsunade's strike, and then slicing her arm off when atop Katsuyu.



> Notice how there _aren't_ yet projected images of the future.



Those _are_ projected images into the future, which is why right after the panel you cropped Sasuke says _"When he moves, with the subtle way the power enters his whole body. The image of his next movement appears clearly before my eyes."_

These are not separate powers, he is starting to apprehend what is actually going on (he did not initially know why he was able to see Naruto so much better, which is why the thing about that Curse Mark was a _question_). You see three Narutos _here_ with only one shaded and Sasuke is still talking about seeing images predicting Naruto's moves up to a certain point. He's still talking about anticipation once Kn_1_ emerges, because that is what's happening. There is no slow-motion effect. Sasuke still saw Naruto moving normally, he could just tell what Naruto was trying to do beforehand.



> "I can now see movement that I couldn't see before."



So did Sakura's perception suddenly accelerate when she said she could now see the direction of Sasori's attacks? No. She could just anticipate what she couldn't before, as is the case with Sasuke whose eyes could more clearly see Naruto's slight muscle tensions.



> Only if you completely throw out the Databook score.



The databook score is fine. Everything I said can be true even while they both score a 3.5. Especially since Sasuke probably just breaches that range, given that he still had a 3 at the time of the Chūnin Exams.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Are we still talking about seeing Ei's arms if his feet are glued to the floor?

Sharingan has been rather consistently portrayed as giving diminishing returns, from Sasuke to Madara.  Like I've said before, I consider the sharingan a substitute for proper experience and skill and taijutsu.  It still gives an advantage, but it's value is diminished facing opponents who have the speed skill and taijutsu naturally greater than yours.  That's why Sasuke gets dumped on by both Bee and Ei.  Bee wasn't nearly as fast as Ei, but his attacks per second and skill left Sasuke unable to keep up despite his sharingan telling him where to go in advance.  Ei wasn't as graceful as Bee, but he had more speed to make up for that.

We saw the same thing happen again with Danzo vs Sasuke, where despite being much slower, he was more experienced and had better movements, so he tagged Sasuke in the throat with a seal mid-blitz.  He didn't have his sharingan eye either.  Then later when he did, he casually sidestepped Sasuke's chidori and took Karin hostage.  That happened because with sharingan equalized, Sasuke was no match for his skill and taijutsu, despite him still being slower than Sasuke, and definitely not having V2 Ei's speed.

here

here

The first one is a hit trade.  Somewhat.  We saw those swords stabbed hard enough to flagpole Tsunade, and we saw that several of them hit hard enough to break Gaara's sandshield.  Rather than be ragdolled, she fought through and punched him.  Madara could keep up with Ei's speed, as stated.

The second is one of her best speed feats is intercepting Madara's katons before Mei could finish her handseals.  

here

We also get her dodging Madara's sword.  Granted, I don't know if that was Tsunade dodging after she got a refill, or Dan piloting her mecha, but it's still her body dodging an attack by a dude who sees her moving in slow motion and has psychic visions of where her body is going to move next.  It's also base Tsunade, which is weird.  

Of course, you're in the position where you can say, "I'm not satisfied," or, "Those are also plot," and I'm not in the position where I can point to more fights.  But if you do that, you'll have said every last one of Tsunade's feats and all corroborating evidence was simply plot and inconsistencies, and you should think that's a problem.

I also think you're misinterpreting Tsunade's attacks.  One of her tactics is to utilize a burst of speed when an opponent is distracted or has their guard down.  We saw it vs Kabuto, and Orochimaru, and we saw it in the Madara fight.  In principle it's identical to Tobirama's hiraiashin-giri, as explained by Madara, just as her possum tactic is identical to Hashirama's infamous clone feint, and so is her brawler type taijutsu.  Hiraishin-giri and such should be treated as different from wonky interception feats that give you V90x Suigetsus and 9th gate kunai, because they're a valid tactic that's consistent in both 1v1 and fly by assassinations, and explicitly stated in universe to be speed.



> What is the difference between everyone that Raikage has punched and Tsunade? What if A, who typically doesn't care about evading counters because of his superior strength and durability, wanted to evade Tsunade because she can overpower him?



Yo, Tsunade and Ei are both hammers.  Ei is a hammer with a blade attachment.  That doesn't suddenly make him a scalpel.

If you want me to grant you precision surgery finesse fighter Ei without scans, while not granting Tsunade the ability to see Ei's hands move at a keyboard when he's sitting at his desk typing angry reviews, I'm going to have to say no.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm on a phone, so I cannot do some massive reply:

*FlamingRain*

I have a problem with the "Tsunade uses her attack in response to v1 Raikage and they trade" thing we have going on. If there's a fist in her face, like there was with Madara, CS2 Jugo,  KCM Naruto, and whoever, we have _zero_ reason to believe she'll be able to do anything other than throw up a _last second_ block like all of those characters, _if that._ She is not Sharingan Sasuke.

Further, regarding the VotE...no. The image-projections don't start until the bottom panel. You can see there difference. With the slow-mo, there's like five Narutos in that panel and they all look the same. In the image-projecting panel, there are two Narutos, and _one is transparent._ This is canon, and it is obvious, and like I said, the Curse Seal can't determine the future from muscle tensions. Sasuke's perception was accelerated upon awakening the 3-tome, just as it was when he first used the Sharingan against Haku, when he used it to counter no-muscle sand spikes during Chidori, and when he used the Curse Seal. EMS Sasuke is not able to see Obito flying around at super speeds because of muscle tensions. 

*PoW*

The Sharingan is not a substitute for skill, because perception of movement is not Taijutsu skill. 

If Sasuke traded his EMS for Killer B's super duper sword skills, he wouldn't have been able to see Jesusbito. If Madara traded Jesus Mode for decades of Taijutsu knowledge, he wouldn't be able to see 8th Gate Gai. If base Naruto was an Iron Fist master, he wouldn't have seen Sasuke any better at the start of Part II.  

Remember how Haku's attacks were largely imperceptible to the wave rivals? Then Sasuke activated his Sharingan, and boom; he can see Haku. Naruto didn't even know what was going on, but then he went angry fox mode, and boom; he can see Haku.

You don't see speed by getting better at Taijutsu. You see speed by getting super perception. Raikage can cross a room and put a fist in Super Jugo's face leaving only enough time for a last second block, yet Tsunade can see thiat guy's Taijutsu and _trade fucking shots with it_ from point blank range? Please. If super Raikage and Tsunade are standing a meter from each other, and Raikage throws a punch, Tsunade either:

A) Does not see that punch.

B) Sees a blur that she is in no way fast enough to defend against.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2015)

Taijutsu is muscle reflex. 
You can see someone's shoulder move and anticipate what kind of a punch he will bring forth and you can counter/dodge/block accordingly, without even needing to see the punch.

Sharingan precog artificially creates a similar opportuntiy, your body may not know how to react but since you see the trajectory clearly, you can anticipate it.  But if you lack the muscle memory(taijutsu skill), even if you see the attack, then you may not be able to respond properly.

For example, a slower but highly proficient taijutsu master may actually match/defeat a less skilled but faster opponent.

I'm talking in general btw, not specifically about the match up.

In the case of this match up, Raikage is likely to be equally skilled, comprably strong, alot more durable and fuckloads faster.
He simply destroys Tsunade.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Yo, Tsunade and Ei are both hammers.  Ei is a hammer with a blade attachment.  That doesn't suddenly make him a scalpel.



Hammers don't see their chest light on fire and leave an afterimage behind for the fire to stick to.

Watch the arm-wrestling match between Tsunade and A in the anime, and you'll see why I think Tsunade is screwed.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

here

He is almost literally bringing down the hammer.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2015)

That scan made me realize how powerful A is.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> He is almost literally bringing down the hammer.



[YOUTUBE]D9GlGZD5BXc[/YOUTUBE]

Non-canon, but it shows the general concept. He's not the Hulk with a button (Shunshin) he presses to occasionally go fast. He's always fast. He's got exceptional taijutsu speed and _even more exceptional_ Shunshin speed.

Yeah, there are going to be low-end feats. Yeah, sometimes Darui & Mei are going to be able to keep up with him when they're working together. There is _far _more focus on speed during actual 1v1 matches. Sakura can keep up with the flow of battle between two Jesuses and a Christ, but put Sakura against Mega Sage Naruto, and _*nobody*_ is going to bring up what happened with Kaguya.  

This is getting ridiculous. Minato doesn't need Hiraishin to engage Tsunade and slice her without getting no-diff-counter-punch obliterated like a scrub. What I'm reading is that Tsunade is going to wait for A to punch her, pull a fucking 6th Gated Gai, and hit Raikage before he or as he's cleaning her clock. 

_No._


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

To me that illustrates that he won because Tsunade made a bet.

Minato needs hiraishin if he fights on a floor that wants to eat him.  But hiraishin avoids that issue in a way Ei's speed can't.  I also think Minato's hands are faster than Ei's, because Ei's thing is punching and Minato break dances and slaps on seals after rasengans and that kunai behind the back feat combined with stripping bombs off a baby.

What I'm reading from you is that if Ei stands still and does helicopter arms in front of Tsunade, she won't be able to perceive the motion without mangekyo, and that's a no.  I'll say it again.  If Ei's speed is hindered, and he can't repeatedly shunshin into Tsunade's blind spots, he's not going to turn invisible.  He's not going to suddenly become slugs PHD because he runs one mile everyday, and he's not going to turn into a precision fighter because his style is a bad fit for his opponent.  The only precedent for a taijutsu fighter having a back up style in case their central style is shut down, comes oddly enough from Tsunade.  My conclusion isn't even that Ei will be too slow or helpless, only that he'll be brought within a manageable gap.

You're asking me to accept multiple things supported with only your conjecture, while demanding of my hard feats for Tsunade fighting Ei.  That's not fair or reasonable, and I think I've tried to be accommodating.  If I point out that Tsunade saw the pace of Ei and Naruto, and said she's coming too, and the very fact that Raikage asked her to help him fight two people keeping up with his speed, that all parties expected she could cognitively process the fight.  Otherwise she'd get the Kakashi to genin treatment, where he told them to stand there and let him handle it, while Sakura commented that she couldn't even see what was happening.  But you can say that everyone wrongly thought she had sharingan, and she bluffed, and ask me for feats of her fighting the Raikage or KCM Naruto knowing I can't show that.  That's not cool, and you shouldn't say that.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 20, 2015)

Tsunade summons Katsuya, and from there I don't see how Ei can Win. At 100 m she is far enough to be safe from blitz, and given his immense looking strength and the rep of his father it's safe to say she'll atleast be pre -empting with Yin Seal. Ei's only chance is decapitation but Katsuya's AOE with Acid, and ability to spatially buffer Ei while tanking all of his attacks, I don't see how he can win.

It should be clear though that in CQC Tsunade has little chance at doing anything to Ei. Base Ei could go on a 10 year hiatus of jacking it in San Diego, and never even be concerned about getting touched by someone like pre skip Kabuto in CqC. Tsunade may be able to react and possibly aim counter Ei, but she's gonna have very few oppurtunities to do so, and V2 is absolute overkill. Ei doged Ama, and completely rounded Sasuke who barely mounted a mental defense with Ama. 

I see it going down like:
- Ei blitzes in her range with a Base Lariat, she dodges and goes to counter and they exchange light blows. Then Ei goes V1 and attempts a Blitz chop which Tsunade barely dodges, as she tries to aim dodge again Ei anticipates this, and counters by rounding her before she can mount a physical defense. 
- Tsunade's only hope from here is hoping Ei doesn't mortally (in tsunade's context) wound her and is caught off guard from her not being dead.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> What I'm reading from you is that if Ei stands still and does helicopter arms in front of Tsunade, she won't be able to perceive the motion without a mangekyo Sharingan, and that's a no.



Oh? When Sasuke was standing in front of A trying to hit him with Chidori, did Sasuke _not_ need his mega perception to slow down Erubō enough so that he could duck under it? Was Kishimoto just fucking with us? Is Sasuke's taijutsu skill so bad that he can't anticipate a linear elbow thrust?

Do you mean to tell me that Tsunade is soooo much better than Super Jūgo that she can block A from _point-blank range_ when that Jūgo _barely _manged to block A from across a room? I don't care if his taijutsu is too fast for her to see or isn't too fast for her to see. She's not fast enough to _respond to it_ from melee range. 

The "trading hits" thing is utter bullshit, because you can't trade hits with something you can barely react to. Minato can trade hits with MS Obito. Tsunade cannot trade hits with lightning nervous system Raikage. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> If Ei's speed is hindered, and he can't repeatedly shunshin into Tsunade's blind spots, he's not going to turn invisible.



I'm going to say right now that this "Katsuyu soup" thing has never held anything down even that was even _remotely_ as powerful as A is, but whatever; _we aren't talking about Shunshin to begin with._

With super lightning Shunshins, Raikage can decapitate _speedsters_ before they can move. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> a precision fighter because his style is a bad fit for his opponent.



What _is_ a precision fighter? What is it? Is the Raikage a "precision fighter" if he dodges a strike and counters?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Precision in terms of he's adjusting his strikes and swatting down strikes with scalpel chops like some kind of Edward Scissorhands perfect parry outboxer.

[YOUTUBE]Lq1ey4-ewyQ[/YOUTUBE]

Ei is not Ryu.  (Nor is Chun Li Tsunade.  That's Tenten's mom.)

For me trading hits comes just as a bonus to them clashing.  If she shunshins at him ala Madara punch, and he counters, they could trade.  If he rushes at her with his less than V2 speed, she can throw out an attack, and if she hits, great.  If she misses, she'll regen.  Significantly slower people have been able to trade blows with much faster opponents.

I'm also not super worried because Ei's in close style is wrestling, rather than a striking style like Guy or Neji.  Tsunade's in close specialty is actually striking.  It doesn't make sense that being a fast wrestler makes you a better boxer.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2015)

Raikage is precise enough to dodge Amaterasu. He performs open heart surgery on Tsunade before she realizes whats going on.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> If she shunshins at him ala Madara punch, and he counters, they could trade.



Why are they trading?

Why is she not getting dismembered in this scenario like Sage Mode Minato against Madara? 

Or decapitated like Sasuke would have been without the Sharingan on Gaara's sand spike?  



Sadness on Wheels said:


> If he rushes at her with his less than V2 speed, she can throw out an attack, and if she hits, great.





Why does he need the fucking _v2 Shunshin_ to avoid getting an attack thrown back at his face mid-blitz? The v2 Shunshin is for fighting Sasuke and his instant forever-fire that goes wherever his magical eyes look.

A's stock v1 speed is enough. Remember what happened to Jugo from across the room? Think Tsunade could have traded with A there? Think she could have traded with A going that fast from point-blank distance?  



Sadness on Wheels said:


> I'm also not super worried because Ei's in close style is wrestling, rather than a striking style like Guy or Neji.  Tsunade's in close specialty is actually striking.  It doesn't make sense that being a fast wrestler makes you a better boxer.



A is _very_ fond of lightsaber chops, which counts as a strike to me...


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 20, 2015)

In regards to the CqC situation it should also be of note that Ei pretty much grew up learning and specializing in Decapitation


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Spot the difference:





Yeah..

I really do doubt that Tsunade is even as quick as Super Jūgo, and how'd he do at trading with Raikage's taijutsu? Oh yeah:


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

I pretty much think anything Juugo can do Tsunade can do way better.  He's really low on my respect scale, and I only remember he exist when you put him in your sig.  That doesn't help the respect.

Ei's never really been imperceptible outside of V2.  V1 is like, yeah, he's faster than Sasuke, but it's nothing he can't handle.  I'd quantify it as 5.0 speed.  V2 is 5.5/6.0.  It's enough to get an edge on even other top speedsters, and tier gap jr. speedsters like Sasuke.

Brah Juugo's trash.

Juugo vs a single 1/25th Madara wood clone.

Oneshotted or laughed at to death?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I pretty much think anything Juugo can do Tsunade can do way better.



Tsunade being able to rip Jūgo to shreds doesn't make him slower than her, especially given he was in a "huge chakra" super form that increases physical stats..



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Ei's never really been imperceptible outside of V2.





With v1 taijutsu, he's about as fast or slightly faster than v1 B. V1 B is fast enough to blitz most characters. Hell, fucking v1 _Naruto_, with like _one tail _ ran up to Orochimaru and punched him before he could do anything.

With v1 Shunshin, Raikage was faster than Nine-Tails Naruto, who was imperceptible in his debut with the form. V1 A is going to be imperceptible to pretty much every character without super speed if he uses Shunshin. It takes a certain level of imperceptibility to completely leave a character's vision when you are standing, _literally_, with your arm in their chest.

Furthermore, even BoPII Sasuke had a Shunshin that was imperceptible to characters that share a speed score with Tsunade, for what that's worth. Sasuke Shunshin << v1 Shunshin, so ya. 

With v2 Shunshin, he's imperceptible to speedsters drastically accelerating their perception with magic eyes...which means imperceptible to everyone not Yellow-Flash or above. 

I don't think there's a _drastic_ gap between the v1 & v2 Shunshins. The gap is between lightning taijutsu speeds and Shunshin speeds in general. That said, lightning taijutsu speeds are still enough to take most people apart, just as Killer B would with a v1 cloak.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

You mean the Orochimaru who later blitzed 4 tailed Naruto?

Orochimaru lets himself get hit all the time.  He let genin hit him, and he let Kabuto slice his face off.  He doesn't care about damage.

Rusty Tsunade is probably faster than Juugo. Dude's best hype is getting no-diffed by a dude who's best hype is no-diffing a group that gave it 300% to take two exhausted special jonin with extreme diff.  Juugo only ever goes wild to get bodied by whatever opponent in any attempt to be relevant.

Naruto clearly wasn't imperceptible to Bee, since Bee perfectly described what happened.  

Naruto was probably imperceptible when he turned into a literal lightening bolt and flung away bijuudama.  But that was the stupidest thing to happen until the next time Naruto did something.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Orochimaru lets himself get hit all the time.



Fine, don't use that feat then. Scroll back through the VotE.

You've got a character, that shares a speed tier with Tsunade, using clairvoyant vision & super enhanced perception to _barely_ keep up with _Preskip_ v1 Naruto. 

So how wrong is the Databook? Tsunade shares a tier with somebody who _cannot see_ VotE KN1 without the Sharingan.

VotE v1 Naruto (one tail) < Part II v1 Naruto (one tail) <<< [...] <<< v1 Killer B (eight tails) < v1 Raikage < v1 Shunshin < v2 Shunshin.

If she is indeed a 3.5 in speed, the gap between her and Raikage is *ASTRONOMICAL.*

*ASTRONOMICAL.*

Even if you say Tsunade's reflexes are better than her score indicates, there is no feasible way she's closing that gap.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Rusty Tsunade is probably faster than Juugo.



Did Rusty Tsunade ever dodge a v1 Lariat? 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Naruto clearly wasn't imperceptible to Bee, since Bee perfectly described what happened.



Yamato went "huh?", Kisame went "!!?", and B said he only saw a yellow flash.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Yeah, it's wrong enough that Kishi didn't bother giving scores in the last one.  Think about it for a second.  Would the Tsunade that had a hard time catching a running Kabuto actually be able to contribute the Madara fight at all ever?  Would she be able to capitalize on Madara in any circumstances?  Would she have been able to dodge anything pre-byako boost?  No she and that Sasuke would have been sidelined along with Temari and Dodai and all those other jonin fodder who could barely hold off the 50% inured Muu that Kabuto was for some stupid reason still directly controlling during the Brother's fight.

Push her up to some reasonable number.  Then tack on a super boost.  Keep that number below all out Raikage.  Then drag Raikage down a bit.  Now it's pretty fair.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 20, 2015)

Awww shit Godaime is up in this bitch, I haven't seen this in years 
Edit: nvm


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

...why does Bee get fangs?

Oxen don't have fangs.  Octopus don't have vampire fangs.





You call it dodged, I call it getting blown up.  

Sasuke though, Sasuke dodged.  He was not getting tossed into the dirt with the rubble.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Someone edit this to say, 

I vant 
to suck 
your 
blood!


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 20, 2015)

He does look vampish, good call PoW


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

ty Sadzuki.

dodge

How come we don't give Karen feats of "dodging" the bijuudama?  Could she blitz PI Kabuto!?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Would the Tsunade that had a hard time catching a running Kabuto actually be able to contribute the Madara fight at all ever?







In case it wasn't clear:



...and honestly, Tsunade's contribution to the Madara fight was healing, boosting, _and getting hit repeatedly but surviving because of *regeneration.*_ She is no speedster, let alone "World's Fastest Man" tier. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Push her up to some reasonable number.  Then tack on a super boost.  Keep that number below all out Raikage.  Then drag Raikage down a bit.  Now it's pretty fair.



Super Creation Rebirth does not increase speed, and even if you want to powerscale her up to Part II KN1 (which is *tiers* faster than 3.5), that is _nowhere near_ Version 1 B, who imo is "a bit down" from Lightning Synapse Raikage.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> You call it dodged, I call it getting blown up.
> 
> Sasuke though, Sasuke dodged.  He was not getting tossed into the dirt with the rubble.


That's being disingenuous. Killer Bee was literally in v1 dashing towards Juugo who had not even grabbed anyone yet (as they didn't know they'd be targeted.), meaning he outpaced Bee in reaction speed enough to grab them and burst away from the plateua busting AOE of the Kinetic energy.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> ty Sadzuki.
> 
> meaning he outpaced Bee in reaction speed enough to grab them and burst away
> 
> How come we don't give Karen feats of "dodging" the bijuudama?  Could she blitz PI Kabuto!?


Yeah because Suigetsu didn't clear their path by sacrficing himself and a shit ton of water. Clearly Karin, via speed is dodging the Bjuu beam.

None of it changes Rusty tsunade getting tagged by Kabuto.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Her contribution was healing.  It was also jumping away from all the bad things Madara threw at all of them.  She did about as well as every other kage at that, be they speedster, flyers, sand riders, or that one chick that got punched by Susano a lot.  ...okay everyone did better than her.

Super booster boosts everything because Kishi sucks and things do things they're not originally supposed to, or it does something it was originally supposed to do in a poorly thought out way.  (hate eyes chakra makes you faster, and see literally everything about the Sannin and their super modes)

Your page is either proof that byako gives you a _significant_ boost, proof that Kishi cares more about _very_ relative tiers than who has super eyes to track god speeds, or just another thing from the unsalvageable mess we can't actually analyze and should discard in favor of stuff we can.  Take your pick.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> That's being disingenuous. Killer Bee was literally in v1 dashing towards Juugo who had not even grabbed anyone yet (as they didn't know they'd be targeted.), meaning he outpaced Bee in reaction speed enough to grab them and burst away from the plateua busting AOE of the Kinetic energy.
> 
> 
> Yeah because Suigetsu didn't clear their path by sacrficing himself and a shit ton of water. Clearly Karin, via speed is dodging the Bjuu beam.
> ...



Juugo avoided a direct hit by super boosting away.  He didn't escape the blast zone, and Bee probably didn't care too much precisely because he wasn't _going_ to escape the blast zone.

Kabuto kills Juugo.  Berzerker vs one the smartest and most indirect Kakashi compared fighters in the universe?  Dude dotons and cuts off his ankles before dissection, or knocks him out with a reverse shosen.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Someone go make Juugo vs PI Kabuto.  Full knowledge for Kabuto, none for Juugo.  Sannin Battlefield, 15 meters.  I've never seen that match done.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Juugo avoided a direct hit by super boosting away.  He didn't escape the blast zone, and Bee probably didn't care too much precisely because he wasn't _going_ to escape the blast zone.
> 
> Kabuto kills Juugo.  Berzerker vs one the smartest and most indirect Kakashi compared fighters in the universe?  Dude dotons and cuts off his ankles before dissection, or knocks him out with a reverse shosen.



No that isn't how it works. Juugo did escape the blast zone which is why he is flying next to the shrapnel from the blast. Had Juugo not got them out of that zone they would have been violently fragmented just like the rock you see in that picture. And he was able to move and grab them without boost, and used it to amp his movement speed. 

Had Bee accomplished what he wanted they would have been painted in the rubble of the section of rock they were originally standing there.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

> That's being disingenuous. Killer Bee was literally in v1 dashing towards Juugo who had not even grabbed anyone yet (as they didn't know they'd be targeted.), meaning he outpaced Bee in reaction speed enough to grab them and burst away from the plateua busting AOE of the Kinetic energy.



Actually, more to Rocky's point.  Assume that's true.  How did Juugo even perceive Bee's VI movement without Sharingan?  Sasuke made a point of saying that Bee was fast, but thankfully he had his sharingan.  The same statement he made against VI Ei, who according to Rocky can't be seen by anyone without Mangekyo.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 20, 2015)

This one is hard to determine.
Ei is going to really feel Tsunade's strikes. At the same time, however, he's fast enough to parry them in V1 or V2. Byakugou enables her to regenerate from his attacks for varying amounts of time, depending on how much chakra is stored in her seal. Katsuyu's acid can also hinder Ei's movements. And she has Raiton to possibly even negate Ei's own cloak.

So it comes down to Tsunade being able to land a few hits or not. Personally, I don't see Ei tanking more than two of Tsunade's concentrated strikes.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> No that isn't how it works. Juugo did escape the blast zone which is why he is flying next to the shrapnel from the blast. Had Juugo not got them out of that zone they would have been violently fragmented just like the rock you see in that picture. And he was able to move and grab them without boost, and used it to amp his movement speed.
> 
> Had Bee accomplished what he wanted they would have been painted in the rubble of the section of rock they were originally standing there.



Check out where the debris originates.  It's near the epicenter.  Check out what they're flying with.  The debris.  Check out how they're flying.  Like the debris.  It's how you fly when you're kicked up like debris, with debris, from the blast that caused the debris.  

As of last post I'm officially arguing a point against my favor to disrespect Juugo.  This is not smart.  Wait, it's super smart, because if you argue against me, you're also arguing against yourselves.  So when I admit defeat, it is my victory.  I'll warn you now.  Should you strike me down, I'll become exactly as powerful as outlined in this paragraph.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

I like how Dr. White's an my avi have a complimentary purple theme.  It makes to page look pretty when we post after each other.  We should always aspire to have such beautiful conversations.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Actually, more to Rocky's point.  Assume that's true.  How did Juugo even perceive Bee's VI movement without Sharingan?  Sasuke made a point of saying that Bee was fast, but thankfully he had his sharingan.  The same statement he made against VI Ei, who according to Rocky can't be seen by anyone without Mangekyo.



V1 is not some set in stone level. While they should be on the same general level it's very well possible Ei's is faster. Either way the feat is the feat.

You don't need sharingan to react to V1. Juugo could perceive him because his reactions were good enough and luckliy Bee was coming from very far(as they weren't his original targets). Sharingan obviously helps but it isn't a pre req to dodging. The problem is dodging consistently. Juugo would have been fucked in a 1v1 fight where Bee can use that speed all match. My point was Juugo's got better actual reaction feats than Rusty Tsunade who you claimed is faster than Juugo.

Minato was able to mentally react to V2 speed, Hashi/Tobi should be able to as well, etc... Tsunade just isn't on that level of reactions is all, or physical speed for that matter.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Check out where the debris originates.  It's near the epicenter.  Check out what they're flying with.  The debris.  Check out how they're flying.  Like the debris.  It's how you fly when you're kicked up like debris, with debris, from the blast that caused the debris.
> 
> As of last post I'm officially arguing a point against my favor to disrespect


Nope, you can see the debris wave arising from the whole plateau (you know that stage in the Naruto games? yeah he leveled that), and the debris is violently fragmented in multiple directions. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> I like how Dr. White's an my avi have a complimentary purple theme.  It makes to page look pretty when we post after each other.  We should always aspire to have such beautiful conversations.


Purple Power  , although I never what obscure anime your characters are from


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> V1 is not some set in stone level. While they should be on the same general level it's very well possible Ei's is faster. Either way the feat is the feat.
> 
> You don't need sharingan to react to V1. Juugo could perceive him because his reactions were good enough and luckliy Bee was coming from very far(as they weren't his original targets). Sharingan obviously helps but it isn't a pre req to dodging. The problem is dodging consistently. Juugo would have been fucked in a 1v1 fight where Bee can use that speed all match. My point was Juugo's got better actual reaction feats than Rusty Tsunade who you claimed is faster than Juugo.
> 
> Minato was able to mentally react to V2 speed, Hashi/Tobi should be able to as well, etc... Tsunade just isn't on that level of reactions is all, or physical speed for that matter.



I don't care how screwed Juugo is, my point is that Juugo can see the attack that's going to screw him, and try to do something before it screws him over.  Which it will.  Because he's garbage.  But he'll know what he's garbage to, and how he feeble his attempts were to stop it.  Just like when Ei punched a hole in him.

Tsunade doesn't need to be Minato to react to VI anymore than Juugo does.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

You all were too weak.  

I am the only one who can end Rocky's Raikage rampage.



Someone edit this to be slightly more relevant.

Hehe.  Rocky the Raikage.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> That's wasn't a multi-man friendship battle, it was a, "Look how awesome the Hokage is," battle.







Sadness on Wheels said:


> You're the one saying her ability to participate in high level fights does not mean she can participate in a high level fight.



Straw man. I said participating in a climactic 5-on-1 showdown with a jobbing Madara _in no way means _that the Timeskip took her from chasing around Part I Kabuto to trading hits with fucking Raikage. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> We can relate this Tobirama's gotcha methodology of attack. That was credited to having an analytical mind, good observation, and speed..



You're comparing Tsunade to Tobirama? 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> I posted this last page.  omgggggggggg



You're posting Spirit Dan carrying an unconscious Tsunade as a Tsunade speed feat? 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> "starting to get sloppy"



Yes, she survived against the clones off-panel. Such a feat does not grant one "keeping up with Raikage" speed & reflexes. Mei did it. _Gaara_ did it.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 20, 2015)

Honestly, I've agreed with Rocky on most accounts, I'm going to tear him out of the frame for that Minato/Gaara/Oonoki thread though, that's for sure


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Go read the post a few pages back.  I explained all of it.  I'm not doing it again because you don't feel like reading.  ....Rocky.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Actually I could copy paste for 1% effort.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Honestly, I've agreed with Rocky on most accounts, I'm going to tear him out of the frame for that Minato/Gaara/Oonoki thread though, that's for sure



I actually gained a much lower opinion of Raikage re-reading his fight with Sasuke.  He dodged one Ameterasu and then shunshined behind Sasuke once.  Two shunshins aren't as many or as impressive as I remembered.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Go read the post a few pages back.  I explained all of it.  I'm not doing it again because you don't feel like reading.  ....Rocky.



...



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Push her up to some reasonable number.



Now she's Asuma speed.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Then tack on a super boost.



Now she's base Gai speed.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Then drag Raikage down a bit.



Now he's v1 B speed.



			
				Sadness on Wheels;54757536E said:
			
		

> Now it's pretty fair.



Base Gai vs v1 B fair confirmed. 

...yeah no, and she isn't base Gai anyway. This isn't any different than Lee vs Gaara. Yes, the speed gap between Tsunade & fucking Raikage is that big.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

*shakes off all rust*

"Alright Raikage, where you at?"


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

That's so not-canon it....actually I don't mind that too much.  I liked PI anime.



> Base Gai vs v1 B fair confirmed.



If Base Guy can punch a mountain half and auto-regens from all damage, yeah.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Preskip Kabuto.

_Kabuto. _


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Somehow my GIFs don't work like Rocky.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

srsly though using Kabuto feats for War Arc Tsunade is like using Edo feats for Hashirama and Tobirama level stupid. 



Am I doing it right?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

I don't feel like we're interesting enough to warrant this level of attention.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ...
> Now she's Asuma speed.
> Now she's base Gai speed.
> Now he's v1 B speed.
> ...



If a huge boost to you is .5 speed V2's not all that special.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Tsunade summons.
> Katsuya melts.
> Ei can't run on slug floor.
> Tsunade punches him.
> Ei becomes slug fertilizer.



I liked this one better.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> srsly though using Kabuto feats for War Arc Tsunade is like using Edo feats for Hashirama and Tobirama level stupid.



I didn't say Rusty Tsunade = Not-rusty Tsunade. I said that the gap between them is in no way comparable to the gap between Part I Kabuto & v1 Raikage.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

I wonder why Sage Minato didn't trade hits with Madara.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

_Pro Raikage:  No one can perceive V1 Ei even when he's not even using using shunshin, unless you have Mangekyo.  Ei can run on anything because he's good at running.  Raikage will fight in brand new never before displays ways because it'd be better here.  Tsunade is unchanged from when she fought Kabuto.  Everything else she did is plot._

_Pro Tsunade:  Tsunade knows how to fight with her summon.  A melted slug gives her field control.  Goo can slow down Ei.  Tsunade's regen gives her lots of chances._

I can do it too.  Except the gifs.  That's decidedly your thing.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> *Supposedly Bad Raikage Arguments*: Raikage will fight in brand new never before displays ways because it'd be better here
> 
> _*Supposedly Good Tsunade Arguments:* A melted slug gives her field control.  Goo can slow down Ei._


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I wonder why Sage Minato didn't trade hits with Madara.



Sage Minato had the biggest wind up to his rasengan in the history of rasengans FOR NO REASON.  So annoyed.  Against Obito he hiraishin'd with the rasengan two inches away from his neck.  Against the fodder he warped with the kunai on the neck.  Against Juubidara he and Tobirama warped with the enton rasenshuriken making contact.  Against Obito he warped mid-kunai slash to stop the jutsu.  

Against Madara he warps with his body between the rasengan and Madara, and holds his arm as far away as possible.  SO DUMB.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Btw, if your whole argument is predicated on Katsuyu goo slowing down Raikage, I think there is a problem.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

I could go a few different ways.  For example they could be on normal Katsuya, or there could be a bunch of little Katsuya's cluttering the field, or a bunch of mid sized ones shooting acid, or just making acid pools so Ei can't run around willy-nilly, or the goop could could give some bad shosen, which are both canonically possible, or a combination of everything.  I could even go crazy and say some stuff about how the Katsuya have shared vision and we know how effective that is at countering speed, but I chose suction jelly.  I will live and die by my carnivorous jello, because this is the way the battle goes that present the most appealing drawn out battle in my mind.

She could also camp in Katsuya but that's so lame I've never believed in it.  It's as lame as the argument that Ei run away forever and outlasts opponents.  Come on, the two bruiser kages wouldn't hide from each other.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 20, 2015)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the curse mark granting any considerable boost to reaction speed? It made users move faster and increased their chakra levels. As just one example: Against KN1 Naruto, base Sasuke was barely able to evade his attacks, and once he went CS2, he relied on blocking with his wings and got smashed into a wall, as opposed to evasion. 

Yet base Juugo doesn't really possess any incredible reaction speed, to my knowledge. He got owned by Base Killer Bee. And I don't think he's as good at taijutsu as Tsunade either, so it's not like his anticapatory skill is any better than hers is.

Plus, Tsunade was swift enough to attack in tandem with Base Ei when she got thrown out of a lightning bolt, and was the first one to react to Madara's Katon when she batted it away with her fists. Not to mention, she could perceive his attacks both during the Madara fight and in his fight against Naruto, where he was in V2 (to the point that she could move before the attacks were landed). Then there's the fact that she could throw her arms up in front of her face when Preta Path flew at her, and she was about to collapse at that point.

So really, all that considered, I don't think the prospect of Tsunade hitting Ei, or even just _grabbing_ his arm or another body part (), as soon as he hits her in face, to be an impossible scenario. And given her durability, resilience and then regeneration, it's not like a punch or slice to the face will kill her anyway. Alternatively, she could just block like Jugo did (assuming he's not in V2 and coming at her from like 5 meters), fly backwards, and wait for him to attack her in mid-air, where he can neither dodge nor out-power her. 

Ei's lack of knowledge hurts him too. He won't expect Tsunade to be able to survive one of his hits, let alone attack him immediately afterwards. 

And finally there's the fact that they're fighting at 100 meters, and she knows his reputation as a physical monster because all the Raikage are. And she's ICly summoned Katsuyu at the beginning of fights before, as she did against Orochimaru. Once Katsuyu is out Ei is just going to die, because sooner or later he's gonna have to jump into the air, where Acid blast hits him and gradually impedes his combat power, as Amaterasu would have done had he not chopped his own arm off.

So yeah, Tsunade wins, and is superior to Ei, as she was conveyed to be throughout the Madara fight.​​


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2015)

It does actually. 

When Sasuke awakened the 3rd tomoe, he noted that his speed was just like when it was influenced by cursed seal. Cursed seal probably boosts both reaction and body speed.

edit : 

Sasuke also used CS1 to dodge Itachi's Amaterasu.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the curse mark granting any considerable boost to reaction speed?



Sasuke compared the boost in perception he gained from the matured Sharingan to that of curse seal, and it was a pretty significant difference. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Plus, Tsunade was swift enough to attack in tandem with Base Ei when she got thrown out of a lightning bolt



Oh no...



Godaime Tsunade said:


> and was the first one to react to Madara's Katon when she batted it away with her fists.



Please, oh god no...



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Not to mention, she could perceive his attacks both during the Madara fight and in his fight against Naruto, where he was in V2 (to the point that she could move before the attacks were landed).



I'm begging you, please!



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Then there's the fact that she could throw her arms up in front of her face when Preta Path flew at her







Godaime Tsunade said:


> where Acid blast hits him and gradually impedes his combat power, as Amaterasu would have done had he not chopped his own arm off.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Tsunade (3.5) has reflexes worse than VotE Sasuke's (3.5 with Sharingan).

She can't even see A, let alone grab him. gg #databookdontlie


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

What's Raikage's databook score again?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

I didn't think I'd ever see people vouching to throw out the Databook in a Tsunade thread.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It does actually.
> 
> When Sasuke awakened the 3rd tomoe, he noted that his speed was just like when it was influenced by cursed seal. Cursed seal *probably* boosts both reaction and body speed.



Exactly.



> edit :
> 
> Sasuke also used CS1 to dodge Itachi's Amaterasu.



What evidence is there that he couldn't have reacted to it without CS2? He used it to increase his body/foot speed, not necessarily his reaction speed.​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

This thread has made me realize that Tsunade has no legitimate speed feats. Pretty much all team-attack feats on par with v3 kunai. People just want to use them to make her fast.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke compared the boost in perception he gained from the matured Sharingan to that of curse seal, and it was a pretty significant difference.



But did he specifically mention his perception being enhanced by CS2? I mean he could have done, I just don't recall it.



> Oh no...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not the facts GT, anything but the facts! ​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> But did he specifically mention his perception being enhanced by CS2?



...why would it not do the same thing?



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Not the facts GT, anything but the facts!



You're basically telling me Tsunade can see A when MS Sasuke couldn't see A.

"Facts"


----------



## Ersa (Nov 20, 2015)

I mean, in a rusty state she was struggling to consistently tag Part I Kabuto. No one who could be considered fast would have any issue doing that. Even after the timeskip and her getting back in shape, Kishimoto gave her a 3.5 speed in the DB. Speed and Tsunade should not be in the same sentence.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> What evidence is there that he couldn't have reacted to it without CS2? He used it to increase his body/foot speed, not necessarily his reaction speed.​​



Just common sense on my part.

Why would it only increase body speed ? Is there any evidence that it doesn't increase reaction speed ?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ...why would it not do the same thing?



Because the curse seal isn't a sharingan.



> You're basically telling me Tsunade can see A when MS Sasuke couldn't see A.
> 
> "Facts"



Tsunade canonly saw Ei. That is a fact. I'm sorry you don't like it.

MS Sasuke couldn't see Ei when he was shunshining all over the show, like behind him, and throwing attacks at different angles. Neither will Tsunade. But if and when he does his usual linear punch at her, head on, that's different. MS Sasuke could see and actively react to that.​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade canonly saw Ei. That is a fact. I'm sorry you don't like it.



[x]

A has reflexes on par with him. In base. G.G. #canon #sorrynotsorry



Godaime Tsunade said:


> But if and when he does his usual linear punch at her, head on, that's different.



No, it isn't. Yamato & B, who have better reflexes than Tsunade, couldn't see Naruto's Shunshin. A was faster than Naruto until the final flicker. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> MS Sasuke could see and actively react to that.



No, he couldn't. When you can't see movement, you can't see movement.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This thread has made me realize that Tsunade has no legitimate speed feats. Pretty much all team-attack feats on par with v3 kunai. People just want to use them to make her fast.



Tsunade was never to have speed feats of the type you'd like because she was never to be a speed based character.  She was only ever to be fast enough to land her powerful blows, and attacked with weapons capable of hurting her enough to showcase her regeneration, because those are her most impressive points... and she wasn't given a lot of fights to show off in.  Her summon was barely even infodumped before the world was put into genjutsu.  Her growth, much like Sakura's, was passed on to Byako, which was a poorly explained and unintuitive super mode.  Raikage and Tsunade were set to be comparable, but different.  Ei takes no damage from the teleport, Tsunade takes some but heals.  Madara intentionally notes that she isn't as fast as Raikage, but is stronger.  The relationship is that Ei is faster and tougher, but weaker and can't heal, while Tsunade is stronger and regenerates, but doesn't have the same durability or speed.  Though in all categories they were meant to at least be somewhat comparable.  Ei not being as strong, for example, doesn't mean that he still doesn't hit hard enough to break KCM Naruto with one direct punch.  Tsunade not being as fast as Ei, doesn't mean she can't perceive his movements.  At the same time I say her speed was never to be hyped, her speed and reactions were never once mentioned in the pejorative.  Whether her opponents were Kabuto, Orochimaru, or Madara, her speed was never once mentioned as a detriment, even when faster characters failed where she succeeded.  I don't think it ever occurred to Kishi that people would think Tsunade would be helpless before V1.


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

"Seeing" or perceiving someone when you're not the one actually fighting them isn't an indicator of their in-battle reflexes at all.  Kakashi (as well as Gaara) "saw" 8th Gate Guy fight Madara.  Sharingan-less Kakashi "saw" Rikudo-enhanced Sasuke and Naruto fight Madara and Kaguya.  That doesn't give them the reflexes to actually react to those characters if they were actively being attacked by them.  It's the same as an interception feat - when you're coming from the outside, it is never the same.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I don't think it ever occurred to Kishi that people would think Tsunade would be helpless before V1.



Then he'd have given her some speed hype. 

A got _tons_ of strength hype, but even more speed hype. If we had characters saying "wow, she sure is fast" like they say "wow, he's so powerful," then I'd entertain that. You guys are conveniently ignoring all these examples of faster-that-Tsunade characters being helpless against slower-than-Lightning Raikage speeds.

Why Tsunade magically becomes Summit Sasuke when Kishimoto told us her speed tier (SoPII Naruto & VotE Sasuke without the Sharingan) in a _canon_ stat sheet is beyond me. When C said _"A is basically Minato but with lightning nerves, so the Sharingan can't even follow him!",_ you think Kishi was thinking "except for 3.5 Speed Tsunade"..?

Please..


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2015)

Yoko said:


> "Seeing" or perceiving someone when you're not the one actually fighting them isn't an indicator of their in-battle reflexes at all.  Kakashi (as well as Gaara) "saw" 8th Gate Guy fight Madara.  Sharingan-less Kakashi "saw" Rikudo-enhanced Sasuke and Naruto fight Madara and Kaguya.  That doesn't give them the reflexes to actually react to those characters if they were actively being attacked by them.  It's the same as an interception feat - when you're coming from the outside, it is never the same.



This guy gets it.

Did you guys ever watch boxing or MMA or K1 or some shit ?

Was there any kick or punch you couldn't see ? Or did you ever get surprised when one of the guys get hit by an obvious punch ? 

Being the observer is different than being the subject. 
That is why characters easily intercept shit that they otherwise have no chance of reacting.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

PoW said:
			
		

> Tsunade not being as fast as Ei, doesn't mean she can't perceive his movements.





"Oh and every kage too. 'Cause kage."

This is what I hear when I read portrayal arguments for Tsunade following WFM speeds.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then he'd have given her some speed hype.
> 
> A got _tons_ of strength hype, but even more speed hype. If we had characters saying "wow, she sure is fast" like they say "wow, he's so powerful," then I'd entertain that. You guys are conveniently ignoring all these examples of faster-that-Tsunade characters being helpless against slower-than-Lightning Raikage speeds.
> 
> ...



She was decidedly given the advantage over the speed focused member of the Sannin at the same time she was given that 3.5.  Orochimaru, who blitzed KN4, and who's "White Snake," inheritance was hyped by the databook to be a reason for so much of Sasuke's speed.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2015)

When did Oro blitz Kn4 ?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

@PoW

Orochimaru likely "blitzed" KN4 for the same reason (you say) that KN1 blitzed Orochimaru. 

I'm also not sure what your point is. Tsunade wasn't given the advantage in speed over Orochimaru. Those scores are Part II scores as well.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 20, 2015)

By that logic, KN1 blitzed Orochimaru.

Orochimaru has a 4.5 in speed anyway, he's faster then Tsunade.


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

Tsunade was never given an advantage over Orochimaru outside of the realm of posters trying to force the Japanese tradition of "Slug > Snake > Frog" and turning it into some sort of twisted canon.  Tsunade punching an ill, armless Orochimaru in the face when she had Jiraiya on her side as well isn't an indicator of her strength relative to Orochimaru.  And even if we go with the idea that she has an "advantage" over Orochimaru, how does that even begin to relate to speed? It just seems like an unsubstantiated attempt at associating her with a faster speed tier.

It's a problem that I've seen in posts even from times preceding Tsunade's battle with Madara.  The DB is tossed aside (or at the very least, heavily marginalized) when it comes to discussing her lackluster speed, but is flaunted to no end when discussing her Taijutsu stat.  Tsunade has below average / mediocre speed - she isn't reacting to someone capable of pressuring Mangekyo Sharingan precognition when she is the one being actively being targeted.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> "Oh and every kage too. 'Cause kage."
> 
> This is what I hear when I read portrayal arguments for Tsunade following WFM speeds.



It's as you so complained about.  You think speed should be utterly broken, but it isn't.  Raikage was not the king of all kage, and Tobirama was not the strongest Senju, and Itachi was not the greatest Uchiha, despite all of them holding some title or another for the fastest.  Kishimoto didn't set up a world where speed reigned supreme, and whenever it got out of hand, he toned it down so it wouldn't dominate.  Much like when Sasuke got ameterasu and susano, ninjas meant to be above him suddenly got counters to it.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When did Oro blitz Kn4 ?



When he slithered up and punched it in the face.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

PoW said:
			
		

> Kishimoto didn't set up a world where speed reigned supreme



Oh? What powers did Gai get to "surpass that of the five kage tens of times over"..?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

We're also starting to delve into plot territories.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Yoko said:


> Tsunade was never given an advantage over Orochimaru outside of the realm of fans trying to force the Japanese tradition of "Slug > Snake > Frog" and turning it into some sort of twisted canon.  Tsunade punching an ill, armless Orochimaru in the face when she had Jiraiya on her side as well isn't an indicator of her strength relative to Orochimaru.  And even if we go with the idea that she has an "advantage" over Orochimaru, how does that even begin to relate to speed? It just seems like an unsubstantiated attempt at associating her with a faster speed tier.
> 
> It's a problem that I've seen in posts even from times preceding Tsunade's battle with Madara.  The DB is tossed aside (or at the very least, heavily marginalized) when it comes to discussing her lackluster speed, but is flaunted to no end when discussing her Taijutsu stat.  Tsunade has far below average / mediocre speed - she isn't reacting to someone capable of pressuring Mangekyo Sharingan precognition when she is the one being actively being targeted.



Jiraiya fights Orochimaru in the past.  He loses.

Orochimaru notes he never fought Tsunade before.

Jiraiya fights Orochimaru in the Deadlock.  Jiraiya loses.

Orochimaru fights Tsunade.  Orochimaru loses.  

The narrative need not be pushed by anyone.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 20, 2015)

Does this mean the Sannin are equal?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

If Kishimoto wasn't big on speed, would he have made the mythical 4th Hokage (and most plot-relevant Hokage) a speed-focused character?


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

It is being pushed when you heavily marginalize the disadvantageous predicament Orochimaru was in.

And trying to associate it to speed is an even longer stretch.  I don't understand why it's always in threads like these where the whole debate turns into trying to equalize speed when the opposing character is very clearly eons faster.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If there's a fist in her face, like there was with Madara, CS2 Jugo,  KCM Naruto, and whoever, we have _zero_ reason to believe she'll be able to do anything other than throw up a _last second_ block like all of those characters, _if that._ She is not Sharingan Sasuke.



She _does not need to be_ Sharingan Sasuke.

As I pointed out earlier Tsunade tried to move before Ay's punch landed on Naruto, Madara can move his arms fast enough to block a punch from Ay yet when he put up a guard once the Kages appeared Tsunade kicked under it, and later Ohnoki-enhanced Ay hit an airborne Susano'o and his hand was still making contact with it when Tsunade kicked it.

So this:



Rocky said:


> Tsunade either:
> A) Does not see that punch.
> B) Sees a blur that she is in no way fast enough to defend against.



is simply wrong as far as I'm concerned, and again, Tsunade is not ducking and then striking like Sasuke did, she is also not blocking like the others- the time they took to block Tsunade is going to be using striking at Ay, and she is resilient and strong enough to keep going even as she is being hit _without_ flying away before she ever touches him. His swings themselves are not so quick that she will not be able to do even that, and his approach itself (which I reiterate is what really gets people in my view) will be slower than normal because he’s having to run through Katsuyu to reach her.

So I still see what I said earlier happening. Even if one were to bring up that Raikage could see her too, because the force of his swings carry him for a bit, meaning he still wouldn't be retreating before they ended up clashing with each other.



> The image-projections don't start until the bottom panel. You can see there difference. With the slow-mo, there's like five Narutos in that panel and they all look the same. In the image-projecting panel, there are two Narutos, and _one is transparent._ This is canon, and it is obvious, and like I said, the Curse Seal can't determine the future from muscle tensions.



It doesn't matter if the Curse Mark can do that or not. Sasuke just asked a question while still trying to apprehend just what was going on. He realized something must've changed because he could read Naruto now. In the Viz he goes:  It is speculation about what caused the change. The following  is still how and why he could keep up with Naruto then unlike before. That is what he actually sees. _That is how the Sharingan works_.

Sasuke’s clarity of vision was enhanced, his perception was not accelerated. Sasuke never said _"oh snap Naruto just slowed the crap down"_. He could keep up with Naruto’s movements _because_ he could read his muscle tensions (and thus next moves) more clearly than before, hence anticipation being what is repeatedly mentioned afterward and not "slow-mo Naruto".

So, like I stated before, Tsunade should be able to register more things to some extent to begin with than that Sasuke could (Sasuke probably just scrapes the tier since he still had a 3 by the Chūnin Exams), and she also easily trumps him in Taijutsu, anatomical intuition and general intelligence. Tsunade > VoTE Sharingan Sasuke 2 _or_ 3 tomoe.

At the same time Raikage moving across Katsuyu < Raikage moving across normal terrain.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Oh? What powers did Gai get to "surpass that of the five kage tens of times over"..?



Space/time taijutsu and air pressure.



Rocky said:


> We're also starting to delve into plot territories.



To be honest, this is the way to argue against Raikage.  I did the other way first, knowing it wouldn't go anywhere because it's the Battledome, and I operate under the assumption you have to.  But you can never argue strict feats for a person who lacks them, or is geared for something else, against another character's forte.  Strict feats are also a terrible way to argue, especially for someone like myself who's interpretation of the manga is almost 100% narrative.  Alas, my obsession with slug goop knows no bounds.  The other way is to go the AP route, but I completely didn't pay enough attention to his arguments to remember them, and they're all the way in another thread.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

FR said:
			
		

> Sasuke never said "oh snap Naruto just slowed the crap down"





"Woah, before I couldn't keep up with him, but now..."

If that doesn't mean Sasuke's perception is accelerated, then I don't know what does.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 20, 2015)

It means that he could read his moves.

Sakura said something similar during the fight with Sasori.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Slow-Mo Vision



"I couldn't keep up before, but now, I can keep up." 

Psychic Vision



"I can see what's he's going to do next, but if I could barely see him to begin with, this would be useless "

....

---------

The Sharingan accelerates perception. It's one of the more obvious abilities in the manga, and it's why it works on things that have no muscles tensions to read.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Ersad said:


> Does this mean the Sannin are equal?



At different points.  Rust=bad chakra control=no arms.

When Tsunade regened, she bumped past the other two and cleaned up.

When Jiraiya was healthy and had sage mode, he was stronger than Tsunade and Armless Oro.

When Tsunade got Byako and Jiraiya was dead, and Orochimaru was sealed, she was the strongest, as mentioned by Dan.  

When Orochimaru got Hashirama body and all the edo kage, he was the best.

Each of them are equal in the sense that they all have a senjutsu based super mode, they all have roughly equivalent boss summons, and they're all ultimately imperfect sages to be surpassed by their students.  They also carry out their key trait to a fault.  Jiraiya's guts and determination are enough to bring him back to life and worked the hardest to gain his power, Tsunade's indomitable will of fire and refusal to die meant she was the only one of the Sannin to never be killed, and her super mode made her impossible to kill, and Orochimaru's notion of eternal life and rebirth meant that despite being killed and sealed, he always returned, and his snake senjutsu focused on that.  Though there's a lot of 2/3 things because Kishimoto isn't fantastic with translating his idea to paper.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 20, 2015)

It wouldn't be useless if the clarity of your sight increased, Rocky.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It means that he could read his moves.
> 
> Sakura said something similar during the fight with Sasori.



She was anticipating the directions of his attacks based on his fingers, which were never particularly too fast for her to follow in the first place. She learned his patterns. That was not a matter of speed.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 20, 2015)

And Sasuke was seeing Naruto's next moves based on Naruto's muscle tensions.

Anticipation, in both cases, allowing them to respond more appropriately than before.

In both cases it was overcome by throwing something their anticipation skills didn't work on- the randomly spreading Satetsu Kaihō for Sakura (no finger reading helping there), and the Chakra arm for Sasuke (no muscle tensions there).


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Yoko said:


> It is being pushed when you heavily marginalize the disadvantageous predicament Orochimaru was in.
> 
> And trying to associate it to speed is an even longer stretch.  I don't understand why it's always in threads like these where the whole debate turns into trying to equalize speed when the opposing character is very clearly eons faster.



How would you debate for Tsunade against Ei?

Don't say you wouldn't.  I know you've got some gems hiding in your hat.  

(Oro had a 1v1 with Jiraiya on a big snake, while Kabuto was fighting Shizune and Tsunade was TKO'd.  Perceiving speeds you can't move at isn't equalizing speed to me, but I want the top shelf served first last and only.)


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It wouldn't be useless if the clarity of your sight increased, Rocky.



There is a clear difference of illustration in those two panels. The future Narutos are transparent.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> And Sasuke was seeing Naruto's next moves based on Naruto's muscle tensions.



Yeah, and he was seeing Naruto's _initial_ movement more comfortably because of the accelerated perception.



FlamingRain said:


> Anticipation, in both cases, allowing them to respond more appropriately than before.



If Sakura could barely see Sasori's fingers, then she wouldn't be determining any patterns.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Ersad said:


> Does this mean the Sannin are equal?



They are all equally chunin.

Raikage and Tsunade is my favorite mid-chunin couple.


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> How would you debate for Tsunade against Ei?
> 
> Don't say you wouldn't.  I know you've got some gems hiding in your hat.



If I _*had*_ to debate for Tsunade, I would probably resort to some of the arguments you and several others have rehashed in this thread.  I'd have to equalize a massive speed gap while simultaneously trying to make an Exodia out of a slug that has done nothing of significance to  suggest it could accomplish half the things being proposed here.

That doesn't mean I find any of that feasible whatsoever, just that there is nothing better to use, which is why I would never actually debate for Tsunade in this scenario.  



> (Perceiving speeds you can't move at isn't equalizing speed to me, but I want the top shelf served first last and only.)



Equalizing speed, marginalizing speed, it's really the same concept.

Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed.  That is significantly below average.  We know that the Raikage is far above average, so much so that he was capable of actively pressuring an established speedster armed with a tool specifically tailored for reacting to high speeds.  

There is nothing that even begins to suggest that Tsunade can perceive the Raikage, be it DB stats or in manga feats.  KCM Naruto vs. Raikage is irrelevant when she isn't a participant, because as I've noted before, the manga is littered with examples of slower characters perceiving faster characters when they're looking in from the outside.  

That has no bearing on how the characters would actually fare if they were the targets of aforementioned speedster.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Your answer was surprisingly boring.


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

Sorry for being boring, but just to try and help you empathize with my position here . . . how unreasonable would you think I was being if I suggested someone with pretty average physical power like Itachi could catch / block one of Tsunade's punches (without having an arm torn off)? It's literally the same thing here. You're trying turn the Raikage's forte into "not that big of a deal" despite the manga having beaten us over the head multiple times that it _is_ a big deal.

I mean, what has Tsunade done to justify putting her anywhere close to the reflexive ballpark of a Mangekyo Sharingan-wielding speedster?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Yoko said:


> how unreasonable would you think I was being if I suggested someone with pretty average physical power like Itachi could catch / block one of Tsunade's punches (without having an arm torn off)? It's literally the same thing here. You're trying turn the Raikage's forte into "not that big of a deal" despite the manga having beaten us over the head multiple times that it _is_ a big deal.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 20, 2015)

I don't like people denying Gai pressuring Juudara in the 7th gate but allowing Tsunade to hit Ei here.

I mean. The speed difference between Juudara and 7th gated Gai should be smaller than the one between V2 Ei and Tsunade.

I'm disappointed already 

My apologies. Sometimes i can't resist the urge of bringing Gai to a thread.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky- Black dude

Yoko- White dude


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Tsunade, come with me!  I don't expect you to do anything because you can't process my and my brother's mighty base speed, I just want to go on a walk with you

We came to stop you!  We won't let you take a single step!  And by we I just me because Tsunade can't cognate the speeds we'll be moving.

Hokage, help me out already!  I don't know why I'm asking you.  I know you can't possibly fight or contribute with your shoddy 3.5 speed, and nothing else in your arsenal matters.

As usual, you won't listen.  But this time I'll be fighting as well!  I hope he doesn't see through my bluff.  We all know he would lop off my head before I even know it's gone.

I'm heading out!  I just said we're doomed without grandfather, Hashirama, whose abilities I know intimately, but my Chunin level speed should come in handy.

Augh, if only I could process the world around me!  Sadly, this does not count.

These other kage are going to find out pretty quick what a fraud I am.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 20, 2015)

Rocky can't answer now. He's dancing with Yoko in a basketball uniform.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Yoko said:


> Sorry for being boring, but just to try and help you empathize with my position here . . . how unreasonable would you think I was being if I suggested someone with pretty average physical power like Itachi could catch / block one of Tsunade's punches (without having an arm torn off)? It's literally the same thing here. You're trying turn the Raikage's forte into "not that big of a deal" despite the manga having beaten us over the head multiple times that it _is_ a big deal.
> 
> I mean, what has Tsunade done to justify putting her anywhere close to the reflexive ballpark of a Mangekyo Sharingan-wielding speedster?



Ehhh, you're fine.  

I don't want to deny anyone their strengths, but at the same time, I don't want to have to read the manga like my hyperlinked post.

Saying a character needs a life-shortening super mode in conjunction with a boss summon along with further life shortening regeneration to fight evenly with just someone's speed isn't something they would believe is necessary to contend with something that's "not a big deal," to them.  

What I would never do in your example, is say that there's no possible counter Tsunade's strength, and that it can't be mitigated or diminished or otherwise made manageable by people with lesser strength.  Or that the only way to beat her strength is to be shown greater strength feats of other characters.  That would be the most unreasonable of all.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Rocky can't answer now. He's dancing with Yoko in a basketball uniform.



I wish them well in their future together.


----------



## Jad (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm a little confused. Wouldn't Tsunade just go flying into the opposite direction every time A hit her. How would she grab his arm or block than counter in time if she is flying backwards.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> When he slithered up and punched it in the face.



I wouldn't consider that blitzing. Naruto had his arms underground, and Orochimaru restrained one of his arms with hidden snake hands and used oral rebirth to close in.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> What I would never do in your example, is say that there's no possible counter Tsunade's strength, and that it can't be mitigated or diminished or otherwise made manageable by people with lesser strength.



Counters to super speed:


Instant-Armor
Teleportation 
Super (AAA) Durability
Intangibility
Better Super Speed

...and the reflexes to use all of that stuff. Speed is far more difficult to deal with than strength. Ask the OBD.


----------



## Jad (Nov 20, 2015)

This manga is probably the biggest offender when it comes to speed. Kishimoto abused it too much. Hence why in other fictional stories, people like night crawler are weaker than most.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Faster than Chūnin ≠ Raikage.



Jad said:


> Hence why in other fictional stories, people like night crawler are weaker than most.



Ever heard of The Flash?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2015)

Well, this was fun. 

_*See you space ninjas.*_


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 20, 2015)

Jad's got a point, if you break down the physics of it, half the things Minato can do shouldn't actually happen, considering his swapping is instant. It's an excellent defensive move but for offense it needs to be carefully planned and I don't think Kishimoto did an accurate job portraying it whatsoever.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Btw, ya'll know what I think of the alliance: 



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Turrin said:
> 
> 
> > So your basically calling Onoki a moron who had no understanding of his own power?
> ...


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Tsunade, come with me!  I don't expect you to do anything because you can't process my and my brother's mighty base speed, I just want to go on a walk with you
> 
> We came to stop you!  We won't let you take a single step!  And by we I just me because Tsunade can't cognate the speeds we'll be moving.
> 
> ...



There is no evidence that the Raikage knew Tsunade is slow.  He had no knowledge on Byakugo.  Why would he have precise knowledge on her speed?  Then, there is always the possibility hat he brought her along for support purposes (which is what she has consistently been highlighted to excel at).

You're trying to link a bunch of these instances directly to speed when there is no indication it was even a factor being considered.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Well, this was fun.
> 
> _*See you space ninjas.*_



*See you space sadness *


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

so can someone summarize the last 6 pages

i'm seeing glimpses of tsunade's '_chunin-level speed_'

tsunade isn't really slow per se, she's considerably faster than your average jonin but still quite a bit slower than the likes of say, kakashi, base guy, itachi, let alone actual speedsters like sm naruto, v1 ay, v1 bee, and definitely not mega-speedsters like kcm naruto and v2 ay

anyone with a dojutsu, sage mode, or lightning chakra mode, would smack her around in cqc fairly easily, problem is tsunade can take a hit and if she happens to catch your punch/kick it's pretty much game over

tho it's not happening in this fight lol

tsunade sees ay charge up to v2, DOESN'T summon katsuyu right off the bat like some posters weirdly think bc that's not even close to IC for her, and gets her head chopped off


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 20, 2015)

Huh.

_ATastyMuffin_ has seemed different the past couple weeks...




Or maybe it's just the red text.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

It's his grammar. He's adapted the cellphone-style.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

what do u mean

ya looking back the red text was dumb af lol


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 20, 2015)

I use green text. Does that mean i'm dumb as fuck?


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

nah lostself you're perfect just the way you are


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 20, 2015)

Yoko said:


> There is no evidence that the Raikage knew Tsunade is slow.



POW's point is that she isn't slow, though.

If she was slow, he'd have already figured it when they went to go intercept the Jinchūriki, since they had incentive to hurry.

Like:

_"Hokage! Pick up the pace!"_

_"I am!"_

...

Her regeneration technique wouldn't be so easy to discover.


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

In a scan where the Raikage just ragdolled his brother, "help" could mean capitalizing on the floored Bee.  It isn't a green light to go ahead and assume Tsunade can keep up with KCM Naruto and Killer Bee battle speeds.

Him telling her to pick up the pace implies he had to slow down on her behalf.  She is trying to pick up the pace, confirmed by "I am", and the Raikage still finds it slow.  I don't see how that suggests she is anywhere near that ballpark of speed.

We've seen slower characters travel with faster ones, anyway.  Unless we want to talk about Old Hiruzen having comparable speed to Hashirama and Tobirama (the fastest man alive during his time).


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

I want everyone to remember that Gaara assisted 8th Gate Gai.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

tbh yoko why do you have tsunade lower than kakuzu on your tier list lol


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 20, 2015)

Because Tsunade would lose in the fight against Kakuzu


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> tbh yoko why do you have tsunade lower than kakuzu on your tier list lol



Because I treasure combat versatility.

Tsunade is a one-dimensional fighter reliant solely on landing physical hits.  She lacks the speed to actually hit most competent characters on her tier and lacks a unique fighting style to outmaneuver her enemies.  Her one claim to fame is super strength, but its superfluous as most characters can emulate super strength with nigh unblockable attacks like Chidori and Rasengan.  She's got Byakugo, but any semi-intelligent character can opt for headshots to reduce the benefit the jutsu provides.

Against most enemies, I see Kakuzu posing a bigger threat.  He is effective at all ranges and needs to be killed multiple times.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

lol no

she blocks elemental attacks by uplifting giant boulders with punches, and the moment kakuzu fires his jiongu, he catches it, pulls him in, and one-shots him


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

I said "*against most enemies, I see Kakuzu posing a bigger threat.*"  Not that he beats Tsunade, which is another discussion that will divert the topic of this thread.

I wasn't aware that Tsunade is capable of generating boulders from thin air either, or catching Jiongu threads that a Sharingan user was unable to react to.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

I was talking to Sadzuki

and look at Sakura's punch, the one that 'might've' been worse than Tsunade's best

Tsunade could replicate even just a little less of that environmental damage and any thing Kakuzu throws at her is blocked

Yeah, Jiongu can _catch_ her or bind her, but the point is, Tsunade uses that opportunity to reel Kakuzu in, ending the game


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 20, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> lol no
> 
> she blocks elemental attacks by uplifting giant boulders with punches, and the moment kakuzu fires his jiongu, he catches it, pulls him in, and one-shots him



He chops her in half with Gian, Byakugo or not, shes half dead on the ground like she was against Madara. She can't fight multiple enemies all at once without sustaining serious injuries, she got off lucky with the Susano'o's because they were only use taijutsu based attacks. Kakuzu has actually prowess with Atsugai and Gian.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 20, 2015)

> In a scan where the Raikage just ragdolled his brother, "help" could mean capitalizing on the floored Bee.



That'd still be progress.

I'd have expected _"Tsunade is way too slow to do that"_, especially considering how fast Bee recovered from Nagato's Shinra Tensei and whacked him.



> Him telling her to pick up the pace implies he had to slow down on her behalf.



You're doing that thing again...

They had somewhere they needed to be and Raikage is not exactly a patient man. They'd have naturally been trying so move quickly, so if that had happened _he'd have known of her speed_.

Which is the point.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

I wonder if people think Raikage is incapable of changing direction while fighting like Genin Lee. 

You know. Tsunade punches- he sidesteps and cuts off the arm. She kicks out at him- he is suddenly behind her. She tries to turn- he chops off her head then splits her body in two. V2 isn't necessary for this. V2 is only necessary for magical eye speedsters.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

Tsunade took a Susanoo sword the width of her waist..._through_ her waist

I think she'll do just fine against Gian lol, which hasn't cutting feats apart from matching the *energy output* of two Raikiri, not the cutting power

that's a key detail I think a lot of people miss about Gian

in any case, she's not getting hit by it, that thing was slow enough for fucking Shikamaru to pull a scroll against lmao

Atsugai isn't doing shit to Tsunade when it couldn't exactly bifurcate Hidan with a direct hit

In any case, Tsunade launches one blow to the floor, and the masks are all sent flying, she takes that time to close in and one-shot them at her discretion


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 20, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Tsunade took a Susanoo sword the width of her waist...[_through_ her waist
> 
> I think she'll do just fine against Gian lol, which hasn't cutting feats apart from matching the *energy output* of two Raikiri, not the cutting power
> 
> ...



Gian would chop her in half.

Atsugai Kakashi only survived because of his sharingan, Tsunade taking that head on won't kill her but a couple of those from mid-air would incapacitate her.

Atsugai + Zukuko would be the equivalent of Goeman without the oil, so yeah, she'll get baked there.

Domu would protect Kakuzu from her punches.

This is all besides the point, she cannot handle multiple enemies without getting hurt, she's going to be slowed down even more after taking those attacks from the beasts. They stay out of her range and shoot her down effortlessly.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

prove that Gian would. I already explained how its cutting power is still unknown because it only matched the energy output of the Raikiri, so we've no idea what kind of damage it inflicts

can you read? my point was that *Hidan* survived the direct Atsugai with little to no injuries 

Tsunade will undoubtedly do the same

As for Atsugai + Zukoku, she punches the ground and blocks it with a launched big-ass boulder

Everything from there is easy

EDIT: @rocky, if tsunade reacts to v1 ay the way jugo did, which I can see happening, she catches ay's punch, doesn't let go, and punches a hole through his stomach


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Tsunade wasn't portrayed as slow. She was portrayed as average. Raikage just murks speedsters..._without v2._


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 20, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> prove that Gian would. I already explained how its cutting power is still unknown because it only matched the energy output of the Raikiri, so we've no idea what kind of damage it inflicts
> 
> can you read? my point was that Hidan survived the direct Atsugai with little to no injuries
> 
> ...



Gian took 2 Raikiri to nullify, that proves it will and the databook describes them as spears that are capable of piercing it's targets. Tsunade isn't durable, she'll get cut in half thinking she can tank it. 

BUAHAHHAHAHAHA @ the Bold though, really. Tasty, don't be dense, it's a not a random Katon, it's multiple elements, she ain't punching shit down.

Tsunade at best is as fast as Hidan or Base Naruto (pre-SM training), once she gets hits shes going to be Ino level in terms of speed


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> That'd still be progress.
> 
> I'd have expected _"Tsunade is way too slow to do that"_, especially considering how fast Bee recovered from Nagato's Shinra Tensei and whacked him.



Raikage asking for help does not translate into Tsunade actually being able to keep up with Bee or successfully capitalize on the Raikage's attack.



> You're doing that thing again...
> 
> They had somewhere they needed to be and Raikage is not exactly a patient man. They'd have naturally been trying so move quickly, so if that had happened _he'd have known of her speed_.
> 
> Which is the point.



So basically, Tsunade has comparable speed to the Raikage because they traveled alongside one another in an instance where the Raikage was rushing, potentially using his higher levels of speed?

Because making that leap, as I've said already, ignores the numerous scenarios in the manga where characters pace themselves to travel alongside one another.  Old Hiruzen and Tobirama being one.

He could have capped himself to a speed just slightly above hers.  Suggesting she was keeping up with him when he was using anything close to his top speed has no basis whatsoever.



Rocky said:


> Tsunade wasn't portrayed as slow. She was portrayed as average. Raikage just murks speedsters..._without v2._



I disagree.  

As far as the Jonin and Kage tier is concerned, she is below average according to the DB you have cited multiple times in this thread.  The only Kage that have lower speed than her are Gaara (an immobile fighter that doesn't need speed), and Hiruzen (an emaciated old man).  Kisame and Kakuzu have 4's.  Deidara, Neji, Asuma, Sasori, Part II Kakashi, Hebi Sasuke, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Kiba, and Rock Lee all have 4.5's.  Then you've got the occasional 5's in Guy and Itachi.

The status quo for people with whom she is commonly pitted against here is above a 3.5.  The only way a 3.5 would be "average" is if we account for people who have no business fighting her, like Part I characters.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 20, 2015)

Yep. You're doing that thing again.

I do not have the patience, at the moment, to keep responding to you (and others) attacking things I haven't suggested.

So I'm not going to even bother unless you guys learn how to read.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> she catches ay's punch, doesn't let go, and punches a hole through his stomach





Jūgo did not catch A's punch. 

Assuming Tsunade did catch A's punch (she can't), A would _immediately_ use his free hand to sever her arm and then decapitate her before she can do _anything_, let alone swing back into him.

Somebody with Minato-level reflexes further amplified by lightning is going to dismantle anyone with tier 3.5 speed in close combat.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Gian took 2 Raikiri to nullify, that proves it will and the databook describes them as spears that are capable of piercing it's targets.



2 raikiri nullfying it doesn't mean gian cuts equally to raikiri lmao, that doesn't even make sense

that's like saying a rectangular piece of wood blocking a knife means they cut equally

the fact that those techniques met and cancelled out means they had *equal energy output*

now gian could very well have good cutting power, but the raikiri feat doesn't prove it all

its piercing power is unproven

in any case tsunade dodges it with ease lol. the way shikamaru reacted to it, it's like a chunin throwing shuriken at a jonin




> BUAHAHHAHAHAHA @ the Bold though, really. Tasty, don't be dense, it's a not a random Katon, it's multiple elements, *she ain't punching shit down*.



do 

you

read

i didn't say she's punching the technique down, i said she hits the floor and the rock unearthed blocks it 

christ man 



> Tsunade at best is as fast as Hidan or Base Naruto (pre-SM training), once she gets hits shes going to be Ino level in terms of speed



i don't think someone who has auto-regen and lasted hours against *Madara* clones is going to slow down to fucking Kakuzu's techniques lol


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 20, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> 2 raikiri nullfying it doesn't mean gian cuts equally to raikiri lmao, that doesn't even make sense
> 
> that's like saying a rectangular piece of wood blocking a knife means they cut equally
> 
> ...


Tsunade hasn't shown any super-human durability, so I expect her to get cleaved like the next guy.




ATastyMuffin said:


> do
> 
> you
> 
> ...


At which point, she's going to still be recovering/regenerating and Gian cuts her in half. 

GG Tsunade.



ATastyMuffin said:


> i don't think someone who has auto-regen and lasted hours against *Madara* clones is going to slow down to fucking Kakuzu's techniques lol


She will because Kakuzu's techniques cause more upfront damage than the Susano'o did and can attack autonomously, something she's going to have difficulty against.


----------



## Yoko (Nov 20, 2015)

Of course you suggested it.  

You flat out said "they'd have naturally been trying so move quickly" and proceeded to highlight the Raikage's impatience in that same sentence.  The implication you made is that the Raikage is trying to move fast, and your previous posts have you trying to chain that implication with Tsunade apparently keeping up with an impatient Raikage that is trying to move fast.

But if calling me illiterate does it for you, go right ahead.  I immediately lose interest in any discussion when you start taking personal jabs at me.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

ya because hidan got cleaved right

because hidan just has amazing durability LOL

recovering/regenerating from what? heck that one punch launches all of the masks in the air, do you remember the AOE of Sakura's? all of Kakuzu's attacks are rendered null


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Yoko said:


> As far as the Jonin and Kage tier is concerned, she is below average according to the DB you have cited multiple times in this thread.



Average among all characters, not just kage, and many kage don't have Databook scores. We have to use it for Tsunade though, because her speed feats are all team attacks, which have been consistently shoddy at depicting speed. 

Her Part I showing, while not _as_ bad as some people think it is, is still nothing that should be used to suggest she's keeping up with _any_ speedsters, let alone the motherfucking Raikage.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Tsunade hasn't shown any super-human durability



That isn't true. She tanked Magatama and wasn't destroyed by Heavenly Transfer, indicating superhuman durability. It's just not A-people levlels.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2015)

just curious rocky what level do you consider A to be

like, this is my tier list for kages in a previous thread:



> :Here's the ranking:
> 
> *Low-Kages*
> Sakura (_War Arc_)
> ...



where does ay go for u


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> where does ay go for u



Assuming standard distance & manga knowledge?

Mid-Kages
Pain Arc Sage Naruto *(Runs base Naruto over)*
Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke *(Either or)*
Sage Jiraiya/Sick Itachi *(Kills Jiraiya, loses to Itachi)*
3rd Raikage Ā/Ōnoki *(Either or against his father, Murders Ōnoki)*
Mū *(Lariat gg)*
Gaara (desert) *(^)*
Gengetsu *(Lightning > Sukia jutsu)*
Hebi Sasuke *(Liger Bomb gg)*
Tsunade *(You know my views)*

High-Kages
Nagato *(A dies)*
Kyūbi Chakra Mode Naruto *(A dies worse)*
Killer Bee/Pain *(Eventually loses to B, Pain requires further thought).*
Tobirama *(A gets there this time; Tobirama isn't quite as quick as Minato)*
Minato* (Minato and A never killed each other, but obviously leaning Minato)*
War Arc Sage Naruto/Healthy Itachi (*Runs base Naruto over, loses badly to Itachi)*
Danzo (Kotoamatsukami) *(Kotoamatsukami gg..?).*

Top-tier Kages

*(Loses no diff to everyone)*


----------



## Rocky (Nov 20, 2015)

Everyone here dies horrifically. said:
			
		

> Sakura (War Arc)
> Base Naruto (War Arc)
> Kakuzu
> Sasori
> ...





			
				Undecided said:
			
		

> Might Guy (Seven Gates)


----------



## Jad (Nov 21, 2015)

Come on man. Bee destroyed A's armor in base.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2015)

Yoko said:


> Of course you suggested it.



I'm going to try this once more, and if you still don't get it I'm just going to acknowledge that you have a reading comprehension problem.


That implication _doesn't_ arise from me saying _"they'd have naturally been trying so move quickly"_.

You said there was no evidence Raikage knew about Tsunade's speed.

I cited them going to stop the Jinchūriki, then elaborated:

They had somewhere they needed to be, and Raikage is an impatient man. Naturally they'd have been trying to move quickly.

Now, when I said that I assumed you had the sense to also account for the fact that Raikage also intended to get there _with Tsunade_, so it meant _he'd have been rushing Tsunade_ as implied in my first response to you, which in turn means _he should know about her speed_.



So now we'll see...


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 21, 2015)

tbh rocky i was asking for a placement in the tier list lol, not a comprehensive listing, but s'all good

based on your 1v1 matchings i'm seeing a placement next to the 3rd raikage for you?

oh and for sm naruto match-ups assume he starts in sage mode lol


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That isn't true. She tanked Magatama and wasn't destroyed by Heavenly Transfer, indicating superhuman durability. It's just not A-people levlels.



She gets cut just as easily as the next person, she regenerated from Magatama  and the Heavenly Transfer left her cut up too.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

Jad said:


> Come on man. Bee destroyed A's armor in base.



A tanked Lariat repeatedly before that (rather magical) feat happened, and Lariat still ended up doing fuck all to A anyway.


----------



## Jad (Nov 21, 2015)

I didn't see much difference between what Mabui said and what happened to Tsunade.

Her flesh was shredded and was bloody. Also did Mabui send some poor fodder through tenso jutsu? Fodder durabity may have made Mabui exagerrate a bit.


----------



## Jad (Nov 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A tanked Lariat repeatedly before that (rather magical) feat happened, and Lariat still ended up doing fuck all to A anyway.



Proof...send me scans lol.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 21, 2015)

from what i remember, Ay tanked the first Lariat from Bee, then cue flashback, then Bee does it again and poof goes his armor

and tbh I can't see Ay's armor working like a rock wall, which breaks down from repeated damage; his lightning armor strikes me as something continuously maintained and reformed (if damaged) via chakra

so Bee probably did disperse it with one attack


----------



## Jad (Nov 21, 2015)

Also Rocky don't say A's armor turned off magically. You can clearly see Kishimoto showed the lightning from the armor diffusing into the air with sparks coming off him.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> based on your 1v1 matchings i'm seeing a placement next to the 3rd raikage for you?



He beats more people than AAA does thanks to super duper speed being > the  additional power from Nukite. 

He's at the top of mid or the bottom of high. He'd be about even with Gai.



ATastyMuffin said:


> oh and for sm naruto match-ups assume he starts in sage mode lol



Naruto is getting murdered regardless in open combat. He cannot handle lightning Shunshins or lightsabers. Or v2. In ninja combat like a 100m forest with no LOS, Naruto rapes.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

Jad said:


> Proof...send me scans lol.



Lariat-tank I
Lariat-tank II (this one is dubious though)
Successful Lariat still doing fuck all 

His armor isn't what is super durable. His body is...


----------



## Jad (Nov 21, 2015)

You may think this is overrating, but i think Gai diwns A pretty casually in the upoer Gates ( 7th ). If this was pre War Gai, even pre Juubi Madara incident. Then Ok. But Gai showed that he has a ton of stamina and relisence to use more 7th Gated techniques than what we (not me personally) thought he could.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 21, 2015)

sm naruto is going to be hard-pressed to deal with V2, but v1? with his level of sensing, he'll easily perform better than sasuke, let alone jugo; if he goes toe-to-toe with v1 ay with a senpo: rasengan in hand, ay's going to get a LOT more damage than just a inch-long pierce in his chest

no, his whole chest will be flattened. as far as i see it, sm naruto rapes v1 ay

v2 is a different story, but I can see naruto throwing up a guard before a punch at least, if his sensing is apparently > kcm's. from there, sm naruto realizes what he's up against and throws smoke bombs to block LOS


----------



## Jad (Nov 21, 2015)

Those first two scans are the literal definition of tanking attacks. The third lariat was Bee super serious after an emotional flash back which knocked A on his ass, of which he felt. But didn't show any lasting damage. A is durable without his raiton armor. But many people thought with his armor he takes less damage or none at all agaibst Gai. But with my proof, armor against Gai is non factor in terms of durability since Gai hits muuuuuuuuch harder in gates than base Bee.

Also yes, I believe 7th Gate Gai pushed Juudara physically back in his combo and Hirudora. Because of that, base A durability will get killed against Gai (with hype backing from Data book and on top if Lee's movie feat )


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

Jad said:


> You may think this is overrating, but i think Gai diwns A pretty casually in the upoer Gates ( 7th ). If this was pre War Gai, even pre Juubi Madara incident. Then Ok. But Gai showed that he has a ton of stamina and relisence to use more 7th Gated techniques than what we (not me personally) thought he could.



If this is Hirudora-spamming Gai then of course he wins. I'm not going to argue on whether or not Hirudora spamming Gai is canon though, because that would be amazing if he was. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> with his level of sensing, he'll easily perform better than sasuke



Sasuke performed terribly. He had that one hit trade, but A didn't think Sasuke was capable of hurting him to begin with. Then he got liger bombed. 

If A goes overt Erubō without caring about what Naruto does, and Naruto goes Rasengan with the intent to counter-punch, then yes, A will probably lose (depending on what Rasengan does).

If A actually knows anything about what Naruto's Sage techniques are capable of, then he starts actually trying to not get hit, and that is gg Naruto. He was literally Shunshin battling KCM Naruto while tanking Lariats from B and throwing him into those KCM Shunshins. That is > SM Naruto.



ATastyMuffin said:


> v2 is a different story, but I can see naruto throwing up a guard before a punch at least



No. _Hell no._ MS Sasuke _couldn't even see_ A. Naruto would get bisected before he could do much of anything. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> if his sensing is apparently > kcm's.



SM has enhanced perception over_ base _ lol. He ran out of KCM, and after doing all this speed analysis I've been doing, I'm almost _positive_ that Naruto was comparing SM to base.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If this is Hirudora-spamming Gai then of course he wins. I'm not going to argue on whether or not Hirudora spamming Gai is canon though, because that would be amazing if he was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



even if ay _does_ know about sage power, he's going to have to close in eventually

and anytime he closes in, he's going to end up punching a senpo: rasengan or getting feinted into one

and if we're talking the combatants actually know each other's power? how is ay going to cope with a knowledgeable sm naruto who launches smoke bombs right off the bat? sm naruto can sneak right behind up and implant rasengans in his skull

I'm positive that he _wasn't_. He said his sage mode allows him to *better sense* the enemy

key word being better, because base naruto cannot sense at all.

hence he was comparing it to *another* form of sensing, which can only be kcm


----------



## Jad (Nov 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If this is Hirudora-spamming Gai then of course he wins. I'm not going to argue on whether or not Hirudora spamming Gai is canon though, because that would be amazing if he was. .



Gai used his most intensive Taijutsu move, Night Guy, with little chakra in his body....in a state where his body started to go charcoal.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

Btw, Sage Mode users could also have some "sixth sense" that they use to perceive things, but the perception of that thing is accelerated regardless. Naruto may not have used his eyes. I'm not sure of the specifics yet.

Base Naruto still has senses though, five of them to be exact. He just couldn't perceive AAA's taijustu well (ie. slow) enough to dodge so that he could aim at his arm.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 21, 2015)

Sage sensing the user as to when there constitution is in danger and the more traditional sensing part alerts them to their spatial orientation. Although same thing with sharingan, if you're too slow you're fucked.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

Yes, you need the reflexes to evade. Sage Sensing does the same exact thing as the Sharingan: accelerates perception of movement. You still need the body speed to react to what you perceive though. That's usually not a problem, but it theoretically can be in some cases.  

I think this is clear cut. "Sense" doesn't always mean chakra sense. Naruto would not have issues sensing Godbito's chakra.  He _would_ have issues perceiving Godbito's rapid movement, but eventually, both Sasuke & Naruto adjusted with their respective tools for using super perception.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 21, 2015)

Rocky is literally beating the shit out of you guys with izaya level wank


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

I haven't said that Raikage beats Minato (yet).


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 21, 2015)

What the hell did this thread turned into...

Raikage vs Tsunade is the Itachi vs Jiraiya of the modern age confirmed.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What the hell did this thread turned into...
> 
> Raikage vs Tsunade is the Itachi vs Jiraiya of the modern age confirmed.



The Itachi vs Jiraiya of the modern age is Tsunade vs any shinobi she's paired.

I once put a gif of "what happens when you say Tsunade loses to another mid-kage". It was for fun, but it was also true. You'd see Tsunade managing to defeat any mid-kage . Bar maybe Kamui Kakashi being the exception.

But what's surprising is that who backups Tsunade are quite good posters, though. (Not Yata MIrror as a surfboard or having copied Raiton somewhere in his life comments (?).  But yeah, i also don't see Tsunade perceiving Ei's speed. He's a terrible matchup for her, as the tanking maneuver she can try to use to outlast her enemies is negated badly by karate chops that can cut her in half, or severed arms, like ROcky said, when she tries to attack him.
------------------------------------------------------

On a side note, why can't Gai use more than 1 Hirudora, if, let's say, after using one, he used the 8th gate and busted multiple EE and one Night Guy? Shouldn't those attacks be more taxing than Hirudora?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 21, 2015)

Tsunade is a poorly handled character.
She doesn't have a proper 1v1 fight against anyone, except for part 1 Kabuto. 
It is really hard to evaluate her based on feats alone, and the portrayal argument doesn't fly in BD. Even if it did, then her portrayal wasn't good either. Compared to her sannin peers or other shinobi who are supposedly in that ballpark.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 21, 2015)

The problem is that she is more support oriented. You can see that with even Sakura, who, instead of causing havoc in the battlefield, like she showed she could, decided just to heal and not more.

But the thing is, if someone doesn't have a way to kill her, they're likely going to lose (Mei, Orochimaru and Sasori comes to mind. And the last two are solid mid-tiers. I could include there Hebi Sasuke and Gaara, but both have ways to get around her regen, however, i wouldn't put them above.) And the high-tier kages all have means to kill her bypassing her regen, or dealing so much damage that it outruns Byakugo.

But that's just me. People like FlamingRain can convince quite a lot with pretty good arguments in her favor. POW too.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 21, 2015)

The thing is, she can't kill those people either. I mean, her only means of offense is running up to her opponent and punching or kicking them. I am not sure if there are any kage levels who can't avoid such straight forward offense.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

People turn Katsuyu into Godslug. I am okay with the occasional theory, but lesbihonest: Gamabunta & Manda are considered borderline fodder by the consensus.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> People turn Katsuyu into Godslug.



She already is 

Ask Bonly


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

Her acid was compared to Amaterasu in this thread.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> People turn Katsuyu into Godslug. I am okay with the occasional theory, but lesbihonest: Gamabunta & Manda are considered borderline fodder by the consensus.



By some.

I saw Manda beating 8th Gated Gai.

Even Manda has his own exaggerated supporters.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> By some.
> 
> I saw Manda beating 8th Gated Gai.
> 
> Even Manda has his own exaggerated supporters.



You may not know this, but latter on, he said that JJ Mad was an normal human, thus Oro could survive Red Gai


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

Was it izaya, cause he doesn't count. The Katsuyu wank (imo) is coming from very good posters.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> People turn Katsuyu into Godslug.



Gamabunta, Manda, and boss-sized Katsuyu each represent a threat within the Kage level.

The summons being used by their summoners > the summons fighting by themselves.

Katsuyu's abilities are practically tailor-made to complement Tsunade.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

I agree. Considering I think they all solo Asuma, they'd have to be threats to kage-levels. 

The theories just seem to be more..colorful when discussing Tsunade.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2015)

Maybe I've missed something but the things I've suggested before are each based on things we've already seen them do.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 21, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> You may not know this, but latter on, he said that JJ Mad was an normal human, thus Oro could survive Red Gai



I thankfully left the thread before that or casually didn't read that. For my own sake .



Rocky said:


> Was it izaya, cause he doesn't count. The Katsuyu wank (imo) is coming from very good posters.



That's true, it was him.

With Katsuyu, i don't know. I mean, i've seen her being a threat to Akatsuki members by herself (but those akatsuki were soloing Bijuus, and Gamabunta himself said he was no match for Shukaku).

We can take that. What i've been disagreeing is with the acid. 1000 miniclones spitting acid while at the same time Tsunade attacks, when something called friendly fire exists and she could be hit with acid too.

But maybe it's just me. I don't see the acid's speed being a checkmate to Kages, nor i see viable Tsunade attacking while Katsuyu spits acid. Imagine Katsuyu does that and Tsunade charges against Kakuzu, and he responds with a huge Katon that pushes Tsunade back and she meets acid that's supposed to kill Orochimaru The Honest.

That'd not look good.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2015)

Katsuyu doesn't need to spit acid near Tsunade.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

Not the concept, but the extent to which it works. Katsuyu swamp holding down powerhouses. Acid affecting durability freaks. Etc...


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 21, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Katsuyu doesn't need to spit acid near Tsunade.



(I like how the thread became about Katsuyu. That god slug is truly something).

I meant in a position where Katsuyu is behind Tsunade, and both do it that way. Considering i doubt that Katsuyu would spit acid when her enemy is between her and Tsunade, either way, Tsunade should dodge that as well.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2015)

Well yeah I don't think Katsuyu would spit acid when she's positioned behind Tsunade either.

The clones might if it's the enemy between Tsunade and Katsuyu, though. I imagine they would spray a smaller amount, and towards the spot the target is standing.



Rocky said:


> Not the concept, but the extent to which it works. Katsuyu swamp holding down powerhouses. Acid affecting durability freaks. Etc...



She is boss summon strong. That's why she's able to cushion powerful impacts without the people inside her just being pushed out the other side.


I don't think either I or POW said powerhouses would be _stuck_ inside her, just that they'd be slowed down.

Like, I think if Jiraiya caught Tsunade with Yomi Numa she could swim out, but since it could hold that giant snake it wouldn't be like she was just in somebody's pool.

If you get what I'm saying.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

I do, but Katsuyu-pond hasn't even held down a giant snake....


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> [x]
> 
> A has reflexes on par with him. In base. G.G. #canon #sorrynotsorry



I thought it was only when he amped up into his Lightning Shroud that he got Minato-level reflexes? In base his reflexes didn't seem to be anything astounding. I could be wrong of course, but from what I remember base Ei's reflexes were never that hyped. Even if his reactions were God-level in base, more so in V2, that still doesn't make him any more likely to win, because as it is his reactions are enough to trump Tsunade's attacks in an up-front fist fight anyway.



> No, it isn't. Yamato & B, who have better reflexes than Tsunade, couldn't see Naruto's Shunshin. A was faster than Naruto until the final flicker.



"All I could see was a yellow flash"

So they did see his Shunshin. They just didn't see what he did, mostly because they weren't even anticipating that he was going to attack. In a battle scenario, they might have actually been looking at him more closely. That said, Naruto moved faster than what he was capable of perceiving himself, hence got stuck in the earth afterwards. He didn't have that problem when he fought Ei, suggesting he wasn't moving as quickly. 

Yamato doesn't possess as good anticipatory skills as Tsunade either, imo. I think taijutsu factors stuff like that into its stat.

There's also the ambiguity of the speed stat: does it represent an average of both reactions and movement speed? Or an accurate representation of both (but many characters can move faster than they can perceive). Or does it factor in things like Shunshin, even though it's a ninjutsu, and if so, does it get averaged in too? If Yamato moves faster than he reacts, then he might not necessarily possess faster reactions than Tsunade despite his overall .5 advantage.



> No, he couldn't. When you can't see movement, you can't see movement.



Apart from when you do see movement, and you dodge said movement, and then stab your opponent in the shoulder with a Chidori.​​


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2015)

> I do, but Katsuyu-pond hasn't even held down a giant snake....



Tis why I pointed to people not being knocked out of her during _things like this_.

There's still boss summon strength to overcome, so even though a powerhouse may not be stuck they wouldn't be going at their usual speed either.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I thought it was only when he amped up into his Lightning Shroud that he got Minato-level reflexes? In base his reflexes didn't seem to be anything astounding. I could be wrong of course, but from what I remember base Ei's reflexes were never that hyped.







Godaime Tsunade said:


> "All I could see was a yellow flash". So they did see his Shunshin.



Not sure if serious, but a "yellow flash" isn't perception of movement. You're perceiving it as a flash of light...



Godaime Tsunade said:


> That said, Naruto moved faster than what he was capable of perceiving himself, hence got stuck in the earth afterwards.



He got stuck because he slammed down too hard...not because he was going too fast to perceive himself, as shown by him having no problem punching Kisame during the flash-step.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> There's also the ambiguity of the speed stat



The multiple types of super speed & super perception can muddy the Databook stats, but Tsunade doesn't possess either of those powers. Anticipation alone doesn't help one see objects that go faster then their eyes can see.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Apart from when you do see movement, and you dodge said movement, and then stab your opponent in the shoulder with a Chidori.



Indeed, Sasuke with the Sharingan was capable of seeing A's standard, taijutsu-speed well enough to duck it. Lightning taijutsu < v1 Shunshin < v2 Shunshin. Sasuke could not see the v2 Shunshin.  

Tsunade is not even remotely comparable to Sharingan Sasuke, so A's lightning taijutsu is going to appear a blur to her from point blank distance, let alone Shunshin.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2015)

I always thought Naruto went faster that first time than he did the next few times after that, and then managed to get control of that speed we initially saw by the time Raikage went at him with V2.

Otherwise it seems strange that Tsunade and Bee would only comment on just seeing a yellow flash _then_ when Naruto had already been zipping around.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2015)

I think they may have been comparing him to _the_ Yellow Flash, aka Minato...because of the parallels. He was "reaching Minato's level." Yamato did say that Naruto wasn't yet there after seeing it the first time. Though it is admittedly confusing, and I've gone back and forth on it.

Naruto's Shunshin always being imperceptible matches what C said about v1 A being "too quick for the Sharingan to keep up with." Naruto & A should have been going _way_ too fast for normal people to see _before_ v2 & Hirai-Shunshin. Especially so given what Sasuke was accomplishing with his Shunshin on characters who aren't particularly slow (Shippuden Sakura & Naruto).


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 22, 2015)

Not that I speak Japanese, but nonetheless I don't think that translation is totally accurate, or at least, it is misleading. If Ei's reaction speed in base were anywhere near the same level as Minato's, he would surely have reacted to Madara here long before the other Kage did. Likewise, he didn't appear to be the first to react or do anything against Madara's katon. And he surely would have reacted to Muu/Madara long before Tsunade did when they were flung out of a lightning bolt, yet they both attacked at exactly the same time. 



> Not sure if serious, but a "yellow flash" isn't perception of movement. You're perceiving it as a flash of light...



Right, and Yamato and Bee didn't actually see what Naruto's movement was partially because of how fast he went, but they were still aware that he moved because of the flash he left behind, and would have been more aware had they anticipated that he was going to attack in the first place.



> He got stuck because he slammed down too hard...not because he was going too fast to perceive himself, as shown by him having no problem punching Kisame during the flash-step.



I disagree, if he had been going at a speed he was able to control he wouldn't have crashed. It's akin to Kakashi moving too quickly with his Raikiri before he got the sharingan. He could still charge and aim his Raikiri, but when his attack failed he was fucked because he couldn't react quick enough to adjust his own movement speed. Anyway, is it even possible to attack mid-Shunshin? Shunshin carries you from A to B, iirc characters Shunshin and _then_ attack.



> The multiple types of super speed & super perception can muddy the Databook stats, but Tsunade doesn't possess either of those powers. Anticipation alone doesn't help one see objects that go faster then their eyes can see.



But clearly he doesn't throw strikes faster than her eyes can see, because her eyes canonically saw him, she moved in accordance with his attack (trying to help Naruto) and she was fully aware of everything that was happening in his fight. Otherwise it would have gone down like Rock Lee vs Gaara, where no one could follow what was happening, and he wouldn't have asked her to help him fight Naruto and Bee either, had she been that incapable.



> Indeed, Sasuke with the Sharingan was capable of seeing A's standard, taijutsu-speed well enough to duck it. Lightning taijutsu < v1 Shunshin < v2 Shunshin. Sasuke could not see the v2 Shunshin.



But Ei always uses his 'standard, taijutsu-speed', Shunshin or no Shunshin. After he Shunshins he throws a punch. The difference with Shunshin is that he can prep a punch before he moves and then unexpectedly appear in front of his opponent, which is what makes his strikes so much harder to avoid. His actual strikes themselves aren't faster after a Shunshin though, why would they be? 



> Tsunade is not even remotely comparable to Sharingan Sasuke, so A's lightning taijutsu is going to appear a blur to her from point blank distance, let alone Shunshin.



Most likely, yet that doesn't make her border-line retarded either, to the point that she isn't aware that this 7 foot buff Raikage moving in blurring images is trying to attack her. And we know canonically that she can see his strikes, even if she can't see him mid-Shunshin. When he smacks her, he slows down signicantly upon impact too, and he lets his guard down as he assumes she will be incapable of retaliating.​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 22, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Not that I speak Japanese, but nonetheless I don't think that translation is totally accurate, or at least, it is misleading.



The general consensus between nearly every translator I've seen is that A and Minato are equal prior to A further enhancing himself with lightning. There's nothing contradicting it.  

The examples you go on to list as supposedly being contradictory are dramatic interceptions involving multiple characters & feats involving two or more characters working together. You need to take all of those _and just throw them out_. Throw 'em out. 

They are _consistently horrid_ at correctly determining speed. Minato cannot activate Hiraishin, catch a bunch of truth seekers, and activate Hiraishin again before 8th Gate Gai moves a few inches. Darui cannot run & punch as fast as Raikage. Sakura's fist cannot fly into Kaguya before Naruto & Sasuke go anywhere.

If you want to go "feats-only" and claim "oh it happened so deal with it," then you have fun arguing with logic that leads to 9th Gate Minato, v1 Darui, and Jesus Sakura. That logic can be stopped with "prove x character was going as fast as possible" anyway, which I will now use for the rest of this post. 





Godaime Tsunade said:


> but they were still aware that he moved because of the flash he left behind



No, B saw the yellow flash _after the movement was over._ Yamato just went "huh?". They didn't see it bro. If you're seeing a flash of light, then you aren't seeing the movement in my book.  



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Anyway, is it even possible to attack mid-Shunshin?



Some of the most clear examples that I haven't shown you yet:

[1][2][3]



Godaime Tsunade said:


> But clearly he doesn't throw strikes faster than her eyes can see, because her eyes canonically saw him, she moved in accordance with his attack



Prove he was punching as fast as he could there. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> But Ei always uses his 'standard, taijutsu-speed', Shunshin or no Shunshin. After he Shunshins he throws a punch.



_No...?_ I don't know where you got that. He tried to attack Obito, Naruto, and Minato mid flash-step (Shunshin).



Godaime Tsunade said:


> When he smacks her, he slows down signicantly upon impact too, and he lets his guard down as he assumes she will be incapable of retaliating.



She is incapable of retaliating, because she's going to be flying the other way. 

Even if she _somehow_ did not go flying, he's got the reflexes to see her movements and evade them with no difficulty. His reflexes are better than Minato's, who could see the v2 Shunshin. Tsunade's taijutsu is quite literally ten tiers slower than that. 

Tsunade will never hit him _EVER_ if he does not want to be hit. Everything will be sidestepped, and if he's ever in an awkward position, he'll just evade with Raiton Shunshin.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 22, 2015)

I don't understand how this is even debatable, this fight is basically the equivalent of "*not hearing the gunshot that kills you*" threat.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The examples you go on to list as supposedly being contradictory are dramatic interceptions involving multiple characters & feats involving two or more characters working together.



I think what ought to be thrown out is the idea that team battle and/or interception feats aren’t speed feats, because we’ve seen that they’re still considered such _in-verse_.

The requirements to pull them off still exist, so they still count. That’s why Gai saving Naruto with an interception during the Chūnin Exams got his speed pointed out, Jiraiya didn’t have time to intercept Orochimaru attacking Naruto, Kimimaro noted that Lee must be pretty good after intercepting him, Sakura’s interception was seen through by Sasori, Naruto intercepting Pain to protect Tsunade resulted in Fukasaku and Gamabunta seeing that he had surpassed his predecessors, C noted that it was impressive for Taka to be keeping up with Raikage, Kakashi wasn’t able to make it over to battle-worn Sasuke before he slashed Sakura due to untimely Mangekyō recoil slowing him down, Tsunade wasn’t able to get from where she was over to where Ay and Naruto were before Ay punched Naruto, Kabuto/Mū wasn’t able to react to Tsunade and Ay popping out of Tensō no Jutsu, _Gaara explicitly pointed out that his sand was too slow to avoid Madara's attacks before Minato stated he would take care of that_, etc.

It seems to me like people cite them as horrid or contradictory because they don't bother to consider how they could have possibly happened.

Case in point:



> 9th Gate Minato, v1 Darui, and Jesus Sakura.



Ever consider that maybe Gai when kicking off of the air isn't as fast as when he can run across the ground? Or that maybe Darui actually moved before Raikage did and they still ended up at their destination at the same time because Raikage is faster?

Sakura didn't hit Kaguya before Naruto or Sasuke could go anywhere either. Kaguya jumped up (towards Sakura) to avoid Naruto and Sasuke, _then_ Sakura hit her. Naruto and Sasuke turned and hit her after that.




Though that doesn't mean I think anything C said was necessarily contradicted.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 22, 2015)

Heh, nobody is saying that dramatic interception feats or team combo feats cannot be used to illustrate general speed _at all_, but if that is the author's intention, _he will let us know._ What you're suggesting we do here:



> Ever consider that maybe Gai when kicking off of the air isn't as fast as when he can run across the ground? Or that maybe Darui actually moved before Raikage did and they still ended up at their destination at the same time because Raikage is faster?



...is the _same thing_ as throwing them out. It is unsupported speculation for the purpose of _rationalizing_ an odd feat. Minato kept up with 8th Gate Gai _because Gai was going slower_, so Minato didn't _really_ keep up with Gai. Darui kept up with A because _Darui moved first_, so Darui didn't _really_ keep up with A. I even suggested such a way of thinking in my post you quoted.

If you want to say that Tsunade and A punched at the same speed out of Heavenly Transfer, I can say that A didn't think he needed to strike at blazing speeds because he had the advantage of the attack being an ambush. If you want to say that Tsunade was the only one to react to the fireballs, I can say that A didn't feel he needed to evade them because of his freakish durability. 

I just don't see a point in doing that, because it leads us to the same place: Team attacks & interception feats are not an accurate depiction of character speed. They _can_ imply that a character is generally fast (depending on the example), but if anyone proposes an instance where X saw or kept up with the _far_ faster Y during this one attack – and Kishimoto didn't put anything in the text to draw attention to X's speed – then I will tell them that I don't give a shit about that feat.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 22, 2015)

Even if Gai was going slower in the air, there's no logical way for Lee to throw a Kunai there. Not if we remember that Gai pressured Juudara _in_ the air.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 23, 2015)

Lee was closer to the orbs than Gai when he threw the kunai.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 23, 2015)

Madara flew highter than this:

_Link_

Gai was this far from Madara:

_Link_

But even if after the other three EE attacks we say Gai positioned himself farther (something not logical to do, considering he's supposed to be hitting him Melee range...) Gai was this close from the TSB:

_Link_

And Lee still didn't throw the Kunai, Wich had to get in the middle of a 8th gated user coming from one side and double Kamui pressuring TSB coming from the other.

I don't think he was closer.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 23, 2015)

That shadow you can see in the corner of the panel is Lee.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 23, 2015)

Are you telling me fucking Lee jumped there before Gai and TSB reached a point in opposite directions, and had enough time to throw a Kunai? That's even more crazy than 9th gated Minato.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 23, 2015)

We just know Lee is there by the time Madara launches the orbs, and closer to them than Gai was.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 23, 2015)

Yeah, and the gap should've been crossed somewhere after the EE blasts. But even if he were there, he had to to outspeed two fast entities coming from opposite directions. And notice Lee is not _that_ much closer than Gai.

Lee had still to move his arm faster and throw the kunai faster (or extremely fast) because Gai's speed is too far from Lee's arm movement. I mean, Gai should've been much more than capable of crossing that distance before Lee was able to finish his arm swing (it's Juubi jin pressuring speed). ANd to make it worse, like i've pointed out, Lee didn't have to put it in front of a moving Gai, he had to put it between two incredibly fast entities in a distance not favorable for him.

Maybe it's just me, but i take it as interception feat, or, like Rocky said, Kishi doesn't care much about spectators or teamwork. Especially the latter, as we have examples of that. (Bee and Naruto vs Ei, Ei and Onoki moving like nothing inside the thick mist, Gaara lifting his sand before Kamui fully manifestated, and.... this.)

Something to notice too, is that Lee looks to be in the floor, not the air, because cracks on the floor. Nothing of that is shown with Gai and Madara in the air.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 23, 2015)

He didn't have to outspeed anything because he was throwing the kunai in another direction.

If Kishi didn't care about it he wouldn't have written Gaara admitting that his sand was too slow and Minato saying he would cover it, or that Lee had nice timing on his throw.

The dust was floating in the air, and we can see the ground because the panel depicts Lee _from above_. That does not mean he was on the ground. We know he wasn't because Madara and Gai weren't that close to the ground.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Heh, nobody is saying that dramatic interception feats or team combo feats cannot be used to illustrate general speed _at all_.



Oh. My bad then. 

That was just how this:



You said:


> You need to take *all* of those _and just throw them out_. Throw 'em out.



came off to me.



> What you're suggesting we do here is the _same thing_ as throwing them out.



It isn't. There's a difference between _"they couldn't actually do that"_ and _"they could do that probably because"_. The latter at least faces the fact that it did happen. Which is the way it ought to be since, as I pointed out earlier, Kishimoto _doesn't_ just up and neglect the concept of speed in those events. The ability levels of the characters involved are still considered by the author.

Minato _can_ Hiraishin twice to remove the orbs from in front of Gai (and also teleport Kakashi out of danger) because he did just that. C also stated that Taka was keeping up with Raikage, so Darui ought to really be able to keep up with him, too.

The thing with Darui and Ay would only be odd had they started at the same moment and still gotten there at the same time, _which itself is unsupported speculation_. Gai moving slower while kicking off of the air than he does on the ground where he can actually sprint makes sense, especially when we have Gai touching down and crouching before using the faster Yagai.



> If you want to say that Tsunade and A punched at the same speed out of Heavenly Transfer, I can say that A didn't think he needed to strike at blazing speeds because he had the advantage of the attack being an ambush. If you want to say that Tsunade was the only one to react to the fireballs, I can say that A didn't feel he needed to evade them because of his freakish durability.



Well these are different than the points I used, but...

It's not like Raikage would have known what he'd appear in front of when they got there himself, until they arrived.

So basically: Raikage- *Pops out of Tensō no Jutsu.* "Here we- oh, _it's just Mū_, never mind then, I don't need to strike fast at him like I do everybody else and their mother". It's unlikely that's how it went imo.

The other Kage reacted because Mei tried casting a Suiton. I would say either Tsunade realized Mei's Suiton wouldn't make it in time first, or she grasped where the fireballs where going to be when first.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 23, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> He didn't have to outspeed anything because he was throwing the kunai in another direction.
> 
> If Kishi didn't care about it he wouldn't have written Gaara admitting that his sand was too slow and Minato saying he would cover it, or that Lee had nice timing on his throw.
> 
> The dust was floating in the air, and we can see the ground because the panel depicts Lee _from above_. That does not mean he was on the ground. We know he wasn't because Madara and Gai weren't that close to the ground.




Go try to throw a rock between two formula 1 coming at full speeds in the same distance Gai and the TSB balls were. You need to outspeed because you're throwing something in x point before said fast thing gets there. Sure, with enough distance it's possible. But not at the distance Gai was.

Not only that, but somewhere in time Lee had to get there. And that was after Gai rushed towards Mads.

Kishi says Gaara's sand is slow. But suddenly lifts his arm as well before Gai reached Juudara in such a small distance.

I know it was a coordinated attack, and coordinated attacks doesn't mean outspeeding nor countering said speed in a versus. But that applies to everybody. (Going back to Rocky's point that i hope i didn't get wrong).


----------



## Rocky (Nov 23, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> C also stated that Taka was keeping up with Raikage, so Darui ought to really be able to keep up with him, too.



C said that not the Sharingan would be able to keep up with A when he was in Raiton Mode, so no. Keeping up also does not have to mean going as fast as, as none of Taka were moving as fast as A.



FlamingRain said:


> Gai moving slower while kicking off of the air than he does on the ground where he can actually sprint makes sense



Gai was still running circles around Jesusdara in the sky, so what Minato did would still be an absolutely insane feat that if used would essentially lead to him being untouchable. He'd have the reflexes to react to everything. 



FlamingRain said:


> So basically: Raikage- *Pops out of Tensō no Jutsu.* "Here we- oh, _it's just Mū_, never mind then, I don't need to strike fast at him like I do everybody else and their mother". It's unlikely that's how it went imo.



Of course you don't think that's how it went. I don't find any of this "let's guess what happened" stuff _likely._ But, because Tsunade isn't as fast as A, it is clear he didn't use exceptional speed there, for whatever reason. 



FlamingRain said:


> The other Kage reacted because Mei tried casting a Suiton. I would say either Tsunade realized Mei's Suiton wouldn't make it in time first, or she grasped where the fireballs where going to be when first.



Mei is not A. Tsunade can have better reflexes than Mei; both of them are tiers behind _base_ A.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> C said that not the Sharingan would be able to keep up with A when he was in Raiton Mode, so no.



And then Sasuke's did more than just keep up with him.

I also know keeping up with somebody doesn't have to mean going as fast as, however, what you said was that Darui didn't really _keep up_ with Raikage. He ought to have been able to because he outplayed one of the people that _C was impressed were keeping up with him_.



> Gai was still running circles around Jesusdara in the sky, so what Minato did would still be an absolutely insane feat that if used would essentially lead to him being untouchable. He'd have the reflexes to react to everything.



That means Gai was still really fast, not that he was too fast for what happened to have happened. He wasn't or Kishi wouldn't have done it, just like he didn't let Gaara move his sand fast enough to keep Kakashi safe.

Gai clearly wasn't moving too fast for Madara because we're shown Madara following Gai's movements fine until he uses an _opaque_ shield to block the initial Sekizō strike, and if Gai needed their support he must've not been kicking through the air much, if any, faster than the orbs were traveling- the same orbs which we already knew the others could follow because it was explicitly stated earlier, and which the interception was timed to.

There is no issue there.



> Of course you don't think that's how it went.



You shouldn't either. If Unruly Ay were the type to do that sort of thing C wouldn't have found anything impressive about Taka keeping up with him as well as they were at the Kage Summit, because there Raikage attacked after C had used a Genjutsu on them.

That, and Mū is a sensor. Gaara had the element of surprise after Rasa stopped his initial sand wave. How'd that work out for him in the link you quoted?



> But, because Tsunade isn't as fast as A, it is clear he didn't use exceptional speed there, for whatever reason.



Umm...the argument being posed is that Ay's swinging speed isn't so great that Tsunade couldn't react to it- that the real threatening thing about his speed is getting from his position to his opponent so quickly.

Saying _"well the fact that Tsunade could act when he struck means he wasn't trying to go fast"_ is just assuming what is to be proved- that Tsunade couldn't do anything when he does that.


Somebody- "They could trade shots"
Rocky- "Nuh-uh cuz Raikage punches so fast Tsunade isn't capable of doing anything when he is striking."
Somebody- *cites instances where that happened*
Rocky- "Well the fact that Tsunade was able to do anything obviously means Ay wasn't trying to strike fast, because Tsunade isn't capable of doing anything when Ay is striking".



> Mei is not A. Tsunade can have better reflexes than Mei; both of them are tiers behind _base_ A.



What does this have to do with what I said?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 24, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The argument being posed is that Ay's swinging speed isn't so great that Tsunade couldn't react to it- that the real threatening thing about his speed is getting from his position to his opponent so quickly.



Dog, the speed at which A runs is the speed at which A punches. 

He didn't run over to Jūgo at super speeds and then slow down to punch him. If Raikage can run a dozen meters and swing before Super Jūgo can even begin to respond, then Tsunade isn't reacting to him at point blank distance. 

Seriously, _Sasuke_ needed magic eyes to see Erubō. Tsunade isn't even Sasuke _without_ his accelerated perception of fast-moving objects.



FlamingRain said:


> Somebody- *cites instances where that happened*



The instance that was cited is irrelevant. It's a dramatic interception (and combo attack) with no mention of 3.5/5 Tsunade's sudden ability to keep up with the 5+ A.

Kakashi does not go as fast as 6th Gate Gai or KCM Minato. Also, Darui does not strike at the same speed as A, and I can legit prove that. Partially transformed Jūgo was able to _move in front of_ Darui's *point-blank* swing on Sasuke and block it. Fully transformed Jūgo could _barely get his arms up_ in time to block A..._from across the room._

So yeah, nobody cares about Tsunade and Raikage punching at the same speed this one time.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Dog, the speed at which A runs is the speed at which A punches. He didn't run over to Jūgo at super speeds and then slow down to punch him.



He starts his punches before he gets there, though.

And what I was saying was that Raikage is dangerous because of how fast he gets close, considering that once there his target being able to react to his punch would be inconsequential in most cases.



> The instance that was cited is irrelevant. It's a dramatic interception (and combo attack) with no mention of 3.5/5 Tsunade's sudden ability to keep up with the 5+ A.



It wasn't a combo attack because they aimed at two different targets, and like I said earlier interceptions still require the person intercepting to be able to move during what's going on, so it isn't irrelevant.



> Kakashi does not go as fast as 6th Gate Gai



That's a panel of Gai _just_ opening the gate _as_ they go that you've got there...



> or KCM Minato.



Minato's hand is _in front of_ Kakashi's kunai...



> Partially transformed Jūgo was able to _move in front of_ Darui's *point-blank* swing on Sasuke and block it. Fully transformed Jūgo could _barely get his arms up_ in time to block A..._from across the room._



Jūgo didn't start blocking while Ay was still across the room.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 24, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> He starts his punches before he gets there, though.



And those punches are at super speeds.



FlamingRain said:


> And what I was saying was that Raikage is dangerous because of how fast he gets close, considering that once there his target being able to react to his punch would be inconsequential in most cases.



It is _both._

His strength doesn't make him slower. He still has legendary super speed, meaning that most characters aren't going to be able to react to him.



FlamingRain said:


> It wasn't a combo attack because they aimed at two different targets



Why would that matter? 



FlamingRain said:


> That's a panel of Gai _just_ opening the gate _as_ they go that you've got there...



Yeah, and Raikiri was the first thing to contact a v2 jin, despite Gai being _massively_ faster than Kakashi.



FlamingRain said:


> Minato's hand is _in front of_ Kakashi's kunai...



One, Minato was kneeling while Kakashi was standing, two, Minato was closer to Zetsu (which is where they were going) to begin with, and three, the gap between KCM Minato & Kakashi is bigger than inches anyway...



FlamingRain said:


> Jūgo didn't start blocking while Ay was still across the room.



What, you think Jūgo _chose_ to block at the absolute last second? 

Jūgo didn't block until A was across the room because that was the limit of his reflexes.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> And those punches are at super speeds.



Yet apparently not to the point where acting during them is ruled out.



> He still has legendary super speed, meaning that most characters aren't going to be able to react to him.



He's legendary for his Shunshin, which is the distance closing thing I'm talking about. That doesn't mean most characters couldn't react to him throwing a strike. The issue for most in the high tiers is that reacting alone isn't enough, not that they can't do it. Usually, they wouldn't be able to hurt him and any defense they tried to erect could be smashed through.



> Why would that matter?



Because there's no reason for them to coordinate with each other if they're not even after the same target.



> Yeah, and Raikiri was the first thing to contact a v2 jin, despite Gai being _massively_ faster than Kakashi.



Okay?



> One, Minato was kneeling while Kakashi was standing, two, Minato was closer to Zetsu (which is where they were going) to begin with, and three, the gap between KCM Minato & Kakashi is bigger than inches anyway...



Zetsu was next to Obito's face. Minato and Kakashi were both right across from each other near his legs.

A gap more sizable than a few inches isn't going to become apparent when the thing they were reaching for got to safety so quickly, as a result of which they stopped.



> What, you think Jūgo _chose_ to block at the absolute last second?



He could have. It wasn't like he was going to be outrunning Raikage or anything. Everyone there saw Raikage coming, as Suigetsu commented during Raikage's approach. Jūgo still hadn't moved his arms yet. If he could still bring his arms up in time to block at that point he'd have been able to move them further had he acted when Raikage was still across the room.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 24, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Yet apparently not to the point where acting during them is ruled out.



If you're the target of that punch, then you're going to need super speed to react to it from point blank. SM-lite speed is good enough from ten meters.

That isn't even counting Shunshin.



FlamingRain said:


> He's legendary for his Shunshin, which is the distance closing thing I'm talking about. That doesn't mean most characters couldn't react to him throwing a strike.



No, he's legendary for his speed, period. His Shunshin is faster than his regular speed, but his regular speed is still too fast from melee range for those without super speed or super perception (or both).



FlamingRain said:


> Because there's no reason for them to coordinate with each other if they're not even after the same target.



Characters don't keep up because they're adjusting their speeds. Gai wasn't going slower to keep pace with Kakashi. A wasn't going slower to keep pace with Darui. If that were the case, the author would say so in the text.

They keep up because of the plot. Just ignore it.  



FlamingRain said:


> Okay?



Is that you conceding the point or no?



FlamingRain said:


> A gap more sizable than a few inches isn't going to become apparent when the thing they were reaching for got to safety so quickly, as a result of which they stopped.



Let me put it this way: if whatever KCM Minato was reacting to was "too quick" for him to get to, then Kakashi shouldn't have been able to react to it at all.



FlamingRain said:


> Everyone there saw Raikage coming, as Suigetsu commented during Raikage's approach. Jūgo still hadn't moved his arms yet.



Yeah, because his reflexes weren't good enough to respond to A until the last second. Suigetsu & Jūgo saw some sort of blue blur coming at them, and Jūgo managed to block that blur from ten meters out. Yay.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The general consensus between nearly every translator I've seen is that A and Minato are equal prior to A further enhancing himself with lightning. There's nothing contradicting it.



Then I guess I disagree with the general consensus. I think Base Ei's actual feats contradict it.



> The examples you go on to list as supposedly being contradictory are dramatic interceptions involving multiple characters & feats involving two or more characters working together. You need to take all of those _and just throw them out_. Throw 'em out.



Feats of characters working in tandem and "dramatic interceptions" are neither invalid nor to be sneered at, especially since there is literally no reason to treat given feats as such.



> They are _consistently horrid_ at correctly determining speed. Minato cannot activate Hiraishin, catch a bunch of truth seekers, and activate Hiraishin again before 8th Gate Gai moves a few inches. Darui cannot run & punch as fast as Raikage. Sakura's fist cannot fly into Kaguya before Naruto & Sasuke go anywhere.



No, the feats you just described are inconsistent, there's no reason to assume the ones I listed are. If it was just one feat that made Base Ei's reactions less impressive, I might be able to agree with you, but there are multiple.



> If you want to go "feats-only" and claim "oh it happened so deal with it," then you have fun arguing with logic that leads to 9th Gate Minato, v1 Darui, and Jesus Sakura. That logic can be stopped with "prove x character was going as fast as possible" anyway, which I will now use for the rest of this post.



v1 Darui?



> No, B saw the yellow flash _after the movement was over._ Yamato just went "huh?". They didn't see it bro. If you're seeing a flash of light, then you aren't seeing the movement in my book.



I probably wouldn't buy your book then. He went "huh" cus he knew Naruto had moved, despite not even anticipating him to do so. He didn't know what said movement was ie. He couldn't tell if he'd moved his arms/head/penis/whatever, but there was still an indication that he knew he had moved (hence seeing him as a flash of light), and as I already explained, I think he was trying to move faster there than he was actually able to. Bee was able to perceive the nature of Naruto's movements in the fight against Ei (up until he moved as a flash again), when he was actually anticipating Naruto to move. And then so was Tsunade, but that's being overlooked for some reason. 



> Some of the most clear examples that I haven't shown you yet:
> 
> 1[2][3]



What evidence do you have that these were Shunshin, and not just fast physical movements?



> Prove he was punching as fast as he could there.



I don't need to. As per canon, Ei isn't going to attack her as fast as he can each time he attacks. If he does, she gets hit, but she doesn't die and she can still retaliate, either immediately afterwards, or when she's on the ground.



> _No...?_ I don't know where you got that. He tried to attack Obito, Naruto, and Minato mid flash-step (Shunshin).



No he didn't, he appeared in front of them with his fist raised. Minato didn't even seem to see Ei until he reappeared. If Ei had punched mid-Shunshin then Minato would've been hit. I don't think it's physically possible for him, or pretty much any character, to throw attacks inside of a shunshin, because it's just a flash-step from A to B.



> She is incapable of retaliating, because she's going to be flying the other way.



In which case, when he treats her like a ping-pong ball while she's airborne he gets grabbed/hit at some point because he can't dodge in mid-air. Or she flies into a wall, plays dead and grabs him as he tries to finish her off with a drop-kick/vertical chop/power-bomb.



> Even if she _somehow_ did not go flying, he's got the reflexes to see her movements and evade them with no difficulty. His reflexes are better than Minato's, who could see the v2 Shunshin. Tsunade's taijutsu is quite literally ten tiers slower than that.



No one is arguing that she'd defeat a shrouded Ei in a straight taijutsu brawl. Not without Byakugou tactics or creating openings, at least. 



> Tsunade will never hit him _EVER_ if he does not want to be hit. Everything will be sidestepped, and if he's ever in an awkward position, he'll just evade with Raiton Shunshin.



Unless said awkward position is mid-air, where nothing is going to save him. In the case of Juugo, he was still clearly conscious, his attack had a further distance to travel than one of Tsunade's arms did, it was slower to prep than a fist/grab would be, and Ei thus had time to actually anticipate it. Even then, his allies were worried that it might have caught him.​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 28, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Then I guess I disagree with the general consensus. I think Base Ei's actual feats contradict it.



We have two comments on A's base speed. There's that C statement, and Zetsu calling him "super fast." That's enough evidence.  I don't know why I should care about your opinion when you're disagreeing with actual translators, including the viz.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Feats of characters working in tandem and "dramatic interceptions" are neither invalid nor to be sneered at, especially since there is literally no reason to treat given feats as such.



Drama itself is a reason. There are plenty of dramatic interceptions that create consistency issues because Kishimoto isn't always thinking about speed (or any singular attribute). You can just call them outliers if you'd like. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> He went "huh" cus he knew Naruto had moved, despite not even anticipating him to do so



He went "huh" because Naruto suddenly had his fist in Kisame.  



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Bee was able to perceive the nature of Naruto's movements in the fight against Ei



Oh, where?



Godaime Tsunade said:


> What evidence do you have that these were Shunshin, and not just fast physical movements?



Sasuke's quick blitzes were noted to be Shunshin by Tobi. No reason to think this one was different. 

The A scan could probably be either, but the air-punch thing looked like what happened with Madara, which was Shunshin. Obito's reaction to it is also what I think it would be against a v1 flicker. 

Kaguya didn't even react until her arm was off. She's wondering how she was hit, indicating by the "!!?". Naruto's normal taijutsu speed wasn't too much for her, so...



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't need to. As per canon, Ei isn't going to attack her as fast as he can each time he attacks.



As per canon? 

I must've missed A fighting Tsunade.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> He appeared in front of them with his fist raised. Minato didn't even seem to see Ei until he reappeared.



No he didn't. Why the _hell _would he do that?



Godaime Tsunade said:


> In which case, when he treats her like a ping-pong ball while she's airborne he gets grabbed/hit at some point because he can't dodge in mid-air.



Just like Gaara grabbed Lee when he was getting batted around like a ping-pong ba...oh wait. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Unless said awkward position is mid-air, where nothing is going to save him.



Sasuke, who is slower than A, can dodge B in midair. A can just flip right over her.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 28, 2015)

Byakugou Tsunade waits until Raikage Shunshin blitzes her and grabs him instead, and throws him up into the Stratosphere. 

 Haha jk, should've ended at Shunshin blitz.


----------



## Bringer (Nov 28, 2015)

I can't believe I read through the entire thread... It was hilarious

Anyway I'm of the opinion that kage level opponents can react to each other. Sure Ei is faster, but there is no lolblitz if he were to face Onoki or Gaara or Mei or Tsunade. 

I also have the opinion that movement speed isn't necessarily the same as fighting speed. An extreme example, you know how all those comic book character battle threads people always say "just because a character can fly/move at light speeds doesn't mean they can fight at light speeds". That's how I feel. Sure, if they were running Ei would lap other kages easy, but in a fight it's a different story. 

Also do people actually think that end of part 1 gated Rock Lee and curse mark sharingan Sasuke can speed blitz Tsunade? 


However if you want to take portrayal off the table and go Ei casually low diffs other kages with MUH SPEED, then Tsunade simply jumps into the air and summons 5% Katusyu on top of Ei. Both Gai and inexperienced part 1 Naruto have used summoning jutsu midair with no platform, so Tsunade should be able to do it. Bootleg food cart destroyer good game.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 28, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Anyway I'm of the opinion that kage level opponents can react to each other.



Well, then you're wrong. 



Mei is kage-level, and you think she can react to that ^, but you are _really_ wrong. 



BringerOfChaos said:


> However if you want to take portrayal off the table and go Ei casually low diffs other kages with MUH SPEED, then Tsunade simply jumps into the air



And gets chopped in half because A jumped up there too, only at super speeds.

By the way, the 100% portrayal argument is a god awful one. Minato beat Obito in under a minute and those characters aren't worlds apart in portrayal _at all._

Portrayal also flies both ways. A was "portrayed" to be too fast for the Sharingan to keep up with, and that's _before_ v2. Ōnoki & Tsunade don't have Sharingans or super speed, so they can't keep up. gg


----------



## trance (Nov 28, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Anyway I'm of the opinion that kage level opponents can react to each other. Sure Ei is faster, but there is no lolblitz if he were to face Onoki or Gaara or Mei or Tsunade.



Ei can outpace Sasuke's Sharingan in spite of all of its perception and precognition abilities.


----------



## Bringer (Nov 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Well, then you're wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Mei is kage-level, and you think she can react to that ^, but you are _really_ wrong.



So do you really think Ei can low diff the Mizukage of the Mist Village in under ten seconds? 



> And gets chopped in half because A jumped up there too, only at super speeds.




Sorry, jumping is physical strength, and Tsunade is stronger than Ei. She'll propel higher up than him, and faster than him because she can exert more force into the jump. You're better off arguing she gets cut in half before she can jump 



> By the way, the 100% portrayal argument is a god awful one. Minato beat Obito in under a minute and those characters aren't worlds apart in portrayal _at all._
> 
> Portrayal also flies both ways. A was "portrayed" to be too fast for the Sharingan to keep up with, and that's _before_ v2. Ōnoki & Tsunade don't have Sharingans or super speed, so they can't keep up. gg



If I remember correctly, Minato vs teenage Obito was mid-high difficulty win. Just because a battle is short doesn't mean it was easy. 

Ei can't low dif any of his fellow kage. Just like Sakura can't speed blitz Ei because she blitzed Kaguya and temporarily avoided the... Hand thingies that god mode Naruto called fast(and at that point god mode Naruto was pretty much faster than any character)


----------



## Rocky (Nov 28, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> So do you really think Ei can low diff the Mizukage of the Mist Village in under ten seconds?



Yes. What the fuck? If Minato had Mei's reflexes, does an angel descend from the heavens and stop A from hitting him?



BringerOfChaos said:


> Sorry, jumping is physical strength



No, it isn't.



BringerOfChaos said:


> If I remember correctly, Minato vs teenage Obito was mid-high difficulty win. Just because a battle is short doesn't mean it was easy.



Minato vs MS Obito would classify as _no diff_ in most people's definition of "difficulty." He used Hiraishin three times, Rasengan once, and left the fight uninjured. What about that screams "mid-high"? Mid-high is like what Pain had with Sage Jiraiya. 



BringerOfChaos said:


> Ei can't low dif any of his fellow kage.



Yes, he can. This 101% portrayal shit doesn't fly. 

Sasori would have paneled Sakura & Chiyo, but no, they gave him extreme-dif and ended up _winning_ because he threw the fight.

Obito would have shut Konan down with Killing Intent like Orochimaru did to Kakashi back in Part I, but no, Konan gave Obito extreme diff by knowing how to counter Kamui.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> We have two comments on A's base speed. There's that C statement, and Zetsu calling him "super fast." That's enough evidence.  I don't know why I should care about your opinion when you're disagreeing with actual translators, including the viz.



Zetsu's comment is about Ei's movement speed, which isn't being disputed. That said, Zetsu's comment would weigh more significance if it wasn't being stated by White Zetsu, who gets blitzed by just about everyone. You should care because the Viz translation contradicts the author's actual writing. If he wanted Base Ei to be that fast, he would've shown those kind of feats, which he never did.



> Drama itself is a reason. There are plenty of dramatic interceptions that create consistency issues because Kishimoto isn't always thinking about speed (or any singular attribute). You can just call them outliers if you'd like.



Well, I personally don't categorise an entire genre (if you can even call them one) of feats as outliers just because I find some of said feats invalid. I'm certain that speed was being heavily considered in at least two of those examples, where Mei noted that she "wouldn't make it in time" to counter Madara's Katon, yet Tsunade jumps the distance and bats them away before anyone has time to do anything. Speed was actually cited in that occurence. And everyone's race to save Tsunade from being stabbed was likewise, very obviously speed-focused, nor was it a "dramatic interception".



> He went "huh" because Naruto suddenly had his fist in Kisame.



And because he disappeared in a flash of light. This argument is pretty redundant though, whenever saw Tsunade canonically saw Naruto and Ei's movements.  



> Oh, where?



Here, when he went at Ei only to get smacked away. Though, I think if Tsunade was following his movements, it only stands to reason that Bee was too.



> Sasuke's quick blitzes were noted to be Shunshin by Tobi. No reason to think this one was different.



Sasuke can move ridiculously fast without the Shunshin. And when he used the Shunshin against Obito, he moved from A to B, and _then_ attacked, it didn't happen mid-Shunshin. So there's your reasoning.



> The A scan could probably be either, but the air-punch thing looked like what happened with Madara, which was Shunshin. Obito's reaction to it is also what I think it would be against a v1 flicker.



Obito didn't anticipate Ei to attack so suddenly, and Ei moves quickly without Shunshin anyway. So he could easily have been surprised by Ei racing at him, even without Shunshin. Though, that scan is unclear. Ei could have Shunshin'd and then thrown his punch.



> Kaguya didn't even react until her arm was off. She's wondering how she was hit, indicating by the "!!?". Naruto's normal taijutsu speed wasn't too much for her, so...



That doesn't necessarily make it a Shunshin. Pouring chakra into your feet and exploding off the ground makes you move hella fast, and correct me if I'm wrong, but up until that point Naruto never launched himself at her at all, he was just throwing attacks at her either from a range, or in the air with his slower moving KB, where his attack speed was mostly dependant on the attacks themselves anyway, rather than his own physical movement speed. The one time Naruto did visibly Shunshin at Kaguya, there was a puff of smoke, and he attacked afterwards.



> As per canon?
> 
> I must've missed A fighting Tsunade.



I meant in every fight Ei has ever had canonically.



> No he didn't. Why the _hell _would he do that?



Because he isn't some kind of wizard that can overcome the limitations of his own jutsu.



> Just like Gaara grabbed Lee when he was getting batted around like a ping-pong ba...oh wait.



As if Part I Gaara is even remotely comparable to Tsunade. 



> Sasuke, who is slower than A, can dodge B in midair. A can just flip right over her.



Are you talking about this? Because that was a completely different scenario. Sasuke hadn't been hit, Bee knew he was still capable of retaliating, and he had both his own and Bee's sword underneath him to use as momentum for a flip.  I should add, Bee was playing around with Taka at that point. Ei probably won't have any of those luxuries if he goes airborne after hitting and sending her flying.​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 29, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> If he wanted Base Ei to be that fast, he would've shown those kind of feats, which he never did.



The Zetsu comment is about A's hand suddenly being around his throat, which is more than just foot speed. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> If he wanted Base Ei to be that fast, he would've shown those kind of feats, which he never did.



He had Zetsu call A's "super fast" in base for a reason. If you are going to argue against the official translation and nearly every fan translation, then I'm going to ignore you. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm certain that speed was being heavily considered in at least two of those examples, where Mei noted that she "wouldn't make it in time" to counter Madara's Katon, yet Tsunade jumps the distance and bats them away before anyone has time to do anything.



Before _Mei_ had time to do anything. Tsunade didn't need to form seals like Mei, so she could just jump in front of the fireballs. No one else tried to do anything.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade canonically saw Naruto and Ei's movements.



She was there watching the fight. That doesn't mean she could trace the Shunshin speed of the characters. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> And when he used the Shunshin against Obito, he moved from A to B, and _then_ attacked



It is unclear what he stopped the Shunshin against Obito, but it's pretty clear against the Curse Seal fodder. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I meant in every fight Ei has ever had canonically.



He attacked Minato as fast as he could right away, but regardless, I don't care about the other fights because nobody he's ever fought has a skillset similar to Tsunade. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Because he isn't some kind of wizard that can overcome the limitations of his own jutsu.



The body is vitalized, but you can only run? 

Show me where it's stated that punching is not allowed during the body flicker. These "limitations" are make-believe.  



Godaime Tsunade said:


> As if Part I Gaara is even remotely comparable to Tsunade.



As if Part I Lee is even remotely comparable to Raikage...



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Are you talking about this?



No, when he flipped over v1 B.


----------



## Bringer (Nov 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yes. What the fuck? If Minato had Mei's reflexes, does an angel descend from the heavens and stop A from hitting him?



No. What I'm saying is that while Ei and Minato are physically faster than other kages, I think that all the kages have similar reaction speeds. Mei wouldn't have been able to time her ninjutsu in tandem with Ei if she couldn't even keep up with Ei as he was attacking Madara. 



> No, it isn't.



So Minato can jump higher than Tsunade?



> Minato vs MS Obito would classify as _no diff_ in most people's definition of "difficulty." He used Hiraishin three times, Rasengan once, and left the fight uninjured. What about that screams "mid-high"? Mid-high is like what Pain had with Sage Jiraiya.



So the fact that he used four *S rank* techniques throughout the fight and walked out with no injuries means no diff? Low diff is Tsunade vs Part 1 Naruto. Low diff is Kakashi while reading a book vs Part 1 Naruto. 



> Yes, he can. This 101% portrayal shit doesn't fly.



So Ei can casually merk the other kages. I'm not saying 100% portrayal, but look at your position for a second. If we discard portrayal, you think that Ei's fellow kage would instantly be killed in battle. If that's the case, we've been reading different manga. I'm gonna refer to an old point in the thread. Why would Ei ask Tsunade to accompany him if Tsunade would be unable to even keep up with Bee, KCM Naruto, or Ei himself? 




> Sasori would have paneled Sakura & Chiyo, but no, they gave him extreme-dif and ended up _winning_ because he threw the fight.



What gave you the impression that Sakura and Chiyo would've been paneled? We didn't even see what Chiyo or Sakura were capable of in that point of the story. Thus far Sakura's training had only shown her cure poison and punch the ground once. Chiyo had only the small skirmish with Naruto. Hell we barely even knew what Sasori was capable of. He only had no diffing Kankaro. All three of them were pretty much featless. 



> *Obito would have shut Konan down with Killing Intent like Orochimaru did to Kakashi back in Part I*, but no, Konan gave Obito extreme diff by knowing how to counter Kamui.



What on earth made you think that


----------



## Rocky (Nov 29, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I think that all the kages have similar reaction speeds.



God no. Reread the Summit fight between Kumo & Taka. One of the Raikage's lieutenants compared his speed & reflexes to Minato's, who himself is renowned for them alongside his use of Hiraishin. A then takes that speed to a new level with Raiton Chakra Mode. Regular kage aren't comparable to the manga's premier speedsters. 



BringerOfChaos said:


> So Minato can jump higher than Tsunade?



I have no idea. I do know that he jumps faster than her, because he's faster than her. 



BringerOfChaos said:


> So the fact that he used four *S rank* techniques throughout the fight and walked out with no injuries means no diff? Low diff is Tsunade vs Part 1 Naruto. Low diff is Kakashi while reading a book vs Part 1 Naruto.



Rank has nothing to do with it. Hiraishin is a technique Minato can use casually. Whether you want to call it no or low, Minato didn't struggle with Obito. How could you say he did with any sort of confidence? 



BringerOfChaos said:


> Why would Ei ask Tsunade to accompany him if Tsunade would be unable to even keep up with Bee, KCM Naruto, or Ei himself?



That is a fantastic question, because truthfully, Tsunade did _fuck all_ in that encounter. When she _did_ decide to get involved, it was to stop A from harming Naruto. 

Guess what? A ignored her and nearly took Naruto's head off.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If you're the target of that punch, then you're going to need super speed to react to it from point blank.



The  actual punch would not be any faster at point-blank than it would be from a distance. The only difference between the two is that the performer needs to also close-in so that the strike thrown can actually land.



> No, he's legendary for his speed, period. His Shunshin is faster than his regular speed, but his regular speed is still too fast from melee range for those without super speed or super perception (or both).



Being legendary for his speed doesn't mean _every_ facet of his speed is just _that_ high. Minato was celebrated as _the_ fastest in the world, but that doesn't mean he was beyond V2 Raikage _even when teleportation wasn't considered_. Raikage is legendary for his speed, but he may not be so _legendary_ for it _if his Shunshin speed isn't being factored in anymore_.

Opponents being able to respond to his swings without Sage Mode or the Sharingan doesn?t contradict Raikage being legendary for his speed.



> Characters don't keep up because they're adjusting their speeds. Gai wasn't going slower to keep pace with Kakashi. A wasn't going slower to keep pace with Darui. If that were the case, the author would say so in the text.
> 
> They keep up because of the plot. Just ignore it.



?

I don't use the _"it was plot"_ excuse to ignore things, primarily because everything in the manga is motivated by plot, but in neither case was Tsunade acting when Ay struck actually necessary for the plot to move forward (the Kakashi and Darui instances weren't either) so that excuse wouldn't fly anyway.



> Is that you conceding the point or no?



No.



> Let me put it this way: if whatever KCM Minato was reacting to was "too quick" for him to get to, then Kakashi shouldn't have been able to react to it at all.



But Kakashi wouldn't even need to since it moved _in response to them moving_.



> Yeah, because his reflexes weren't good enough to respond to A until the last second.



You have to respond in order to comment about something. Try moving your arm while saying _"he's fast"_ quickly and you wouldn't finish the words before your arm was already in motion if not in place. Suigetsu saw Raikage coming and _said_ (not just _thought_) _"he's fast"_ while Raikage was still at a distance, so Jūgo could have at least started moving his arms by that point had he actually chosen to, but he did not.

Also, Raikage would be , not blue.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 30, 2015)

Here is my favorite rebuttal to the talking argument:

Sasuke begins maximum-speed dash towards Gaara at weightless Lee speeds.

*Gai:*_ "I see, so that's why you only trained in taijutsu and had him raise his speed."_

*Kakashi:* _"Yep."_

*Sasuke still running*

*Part I Sakura:* _"Incredible...you can clearly see the chakra in his hand. What's going on?"_

*Gaara's thoughts:* _"I'm gonna rip his head open and drink his blood from his brain cavity with my mother."_

*Sasuke still running*

*Naruto:* _"What is...that!?"_

*Sasuke still running*

*Part I Sakura:* _"What is this technique? And this sound..."_

*Gai:* _"A simple stab."_

*Part I Sakura:* _"Huh?"_

*Sasuke still running*

*Gai:* _"But it is..the Leaf's number one technician, Copy Ninja Kakashi's sole original technique. It's a technique specifically for assassination. The speed of the stab and the great amount of chakra creates the heightened flesh. Because the chakra is concentrated in the hand, with the speed of the us_–*Sasuke is still fucking running by the way*..._"user, you hear 'chi chi chi chi chi'. It produces a special sound like a thousand birds running towards you. Thus that technique is called..."_

SASUKE STOPS RUNNING.

WHAT THE FUCK


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 30, 2015)

Talking in manga is a free speech.

Except for that one time Naruto didn't have enough time to talk when Roshi was charging him.


----------



## Jad (Nov 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Here is my favorite rebuttal to the talking argument:
> 
> Sasuke begins maximum-speed dash towards Gaara at weightless Lee speeds.
> 
> ...



Mind if I use this beauty Rocky?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 30, 2015)

It's public property my man.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

Here's two Itachi examples FR:


Interruption 1 panel


Attacked while speaking


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Nov 30, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> So do you really think Ei can low diff the Mizukage of the Mist Village in under ten seconds?


Of course he cannot. Only a fanboy would say he can.


> Sorry, jumping is physical strength, and Tsunade is stronger than Ei. She'll propel higher up than him, and faster than him because she can exert more force into the jump. You're better off arguing she gets cut in half before she can jump


The woman that jumped higher than Gamabunta's head (a Bijuu sized toad) while holding his sword. 


> If I remember correctly, Minato vs teenage Obito was mid-high difficulty win. Just because a battle is short doesn't mean it was easy.


Exactly. Itachi defeated Orochimaru (albeit severly handicapped may i remind you all) in 2 seconds but he needed the strongest technique and weapon in his arsenal to do it.





> Ei can't low dif any of his fellow kage. Just like Sakura can't speed blitz Ei because she blitzed Kaguya and temporarily avoided the... Hand thingies that god mode Naruto called fast(and at that point god mode Naruto was pretty much faster than any character)


Exactly BringerOfChaos. Ex-fucking-xactly. If fanboys want to argue Ei blitzes Mei then i'll just keep telling them that Sakura is faster than the Raikage and speed blitzes him cos i'm sure they'd love to hear that. Raikage is on the same tier as Mei. He's a Low Kage. He's just Rusty Tsunade without any form of Medical Ninjusu or Slug Summonings, albeit a bit faster. Lol i forgot this was even a Tsunade thread i didnt even look at the title beofre i clicked. In fact, i'm the guy that made this thread lol. Also, she blitzed Kabuto before he knew what was happening, blitzed Naruto and had enough leg strength to jump to a height higher than a Bijuu can raise its head to. With that leg strength, he jumps towards Raikage and chakra scalpels his brain. If that doesnt work, she calls Katsuyu, amplifies Zesshi Nensan like she did Jinton, and calls it a day.

<snip> Just read these three scans, especially the third one. Let all the words sink in, and then just call it a day.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 30, 2015)

I'm going to try and shorten this.



FlamingRain said:


> When Ay used his top power shroud against Naruto he said Naruto was the second to ever _outrun_ that punch, not _just respond_ to it.



The fact that A's fist was inches away from Minato's face before he had moved is evidence enough that no character that had ever faced it had ever responded to it. Characters the don't have Minato's reflexes get hit there, and characters that don't have Minato's perception of movement probably don't even see A to begin with. 



FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade has less moving to do and more time than 99% of the cast would because she can actually take the hit.



If we assume that Tsunade's instinctively trained herself to swing out at her foe upon the slightest hint of movement, that isn't going to work against the Raikage. Normally she can ignore enemy blows because of her herculean strength, but she isn't just going to run through an Erubō to her nose. She'd be sent flying the other way. 

A is also bigger than most ninja, so she might not even be able to reach him without ducking under him like Sasuke. Moreover, A has the reflexes to _see_ whether or not her fist is going to connect with him. If, for whatever reason, the force of his blow didn't impede her from striking out at him, he could quickly activate Shunshin and reposition himself behind her before her fist got to him. 

Even if they _somehow_ traded, he's durable and resilient enough to withstand things that would kill normal men so he's not going down to one blow anyway. Then he activates v2 and absolutely speed-blitzes her to death with Shunshin after Shunshin that she can't even follow, let alone fight against. 



FlamingRain said:


> The member of the Sannin whose assistance was requested by Raikage himself and whom herself challenged Raikage following that would get more credit than the former henchmen of another Sannin.



I'm going to remind you that even though she tagged along, Tsunade did a whole lotta' nothing during the actual confrontation. Even when she asserted that A'd have to go through her, she never actually stopped Naruto from taking off _or_ A from attempting to run Naruto down. 

Tsunade's superiority over the members of Taka has nothing to do with her speed and reflexes anyway. That isn't her focal point, and going by the Databook statistics, _it's her biggest weakness._ That is easily exploitable by somebody as quick as A.



FlamingRain said:


> Okay one, I'm gonna ask you to refrain from calling me that from this point onwards.



I apologize.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 30, 2015)

Tsunade gets plastered by V2 and can barely keep up with V1 speed. Even base Ei is much faster than her if scaled to Bee's base speed. Tsunade's secondary skills need to stop being wanked.


----------



## A Optimistic (Nov 30, 2015)

Tsunade has the power to one shot him, but she is way to slow to ever touch him.

Raikage blitz and one shots.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 30, 2015)

How this ever made it to 339 posts is beyond me.

But at least we got there.

Raikage does one-shot and effortlessly too.





FlamingRain said:


> He didn't have to outspeed anything because he was throwing the kunai in another direction.
> 
> If Kishi didn't care about it he wouldn't have written Gaara admitting that his sand was too slow and Minato saying he would cover it, or that Lee had nice timing on his throw.
> 
> The dust was floating in the air, and we can see the ground because the panel depicts Lee _from above_. That does not mean he was on the ground. We know he wasn't because Madara and Gai weren't that close to the ground.



Gaara's sand was also a whole lot faster due to Oonoki lightening it at the beginning of the war too.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 1, 2015)

Tsunade wins this discussion is pointless. The manga stated Tsunade was better and that statement was made not even taking into accoutn chakara scalpels, ranshinshou, katsuyu, all which Tsunade was plot-restricted from using in the Madara fight so they could make her look equal to the other kages but even then she was still the strongest Gokage.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 1, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Tsunade wins this discussion is pointless. The manga stated Tsunade was better and that statement was made not even taking into accoutn chakara scalpels, ranshinshou, katsuyu, all which Tsunade was plot-restricted from using in the Madara fight so they could make her look equal to the other kages but even then she was still the strongest Gokage.



Tsunade gets blitz'd the moment the match starts and she loses her head. Kisame who is faster than her got his head removed, the same thing happens to Tsunade a much slower, less durable shinobi.


----------



## IcyTouch (Dec 1, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Tsunade gets blitz'd the moment the match starts and she loses her head. Kisame who is faster than her got his head removed, the same thing happens to Tsunade a much slower, less durable shinobi.



This. Also if Sasuke didn't have susanoo when he fought Raikage he would've been murdered at that time, and Sasuke is leagues faster then Tsunade.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 1, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Tsunade gets blitz'd the moment the match starts and she loses her head. Kisame who is faster than her got his head removed, the same thing happens to Tsunade a much slower, less durable shinobi.


That was white zetsu, and it was a literal set-up death for Kisame's infiltration plan.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 1, 2015)

I've admittedly not read many of the arguments past the first page outside of a moderator's point of view, but I'd like to say that while the Raikage is substantially faster than Tsunade, I'd be hard pressed to believe that he could just 'speedblitz' a kunoichi of her caliber.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 1, 2015)

Dog, he nearly blitzed MS Sasuke, KCM Naruto, and Minato. Without their instant-defense ninjutsu, he would have. They are _tiers_ faster than Tsunade.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 1, 2015)

MS Sasuke tiers faster than Tsunade?

Definitely not the case. Killer Bee was jobbing him while dealing with Suigetsu & CS1 Jugo all simultaneously, and blitzed him with 6 blade stabs 1 on 1. He needed Susano & Amaterasu to keep killing Danzo, and Danzo avoided his Susano attacks twice (moved faster than his perception allowed the Susano to re-direct while the attack was in motion). 

I'd argue comparable shunshin speed, with MS Sasuke having slightly better perception, which aides his instant susano defense and last split second maneuvers (V1 Kirabi flip dodge, ducting V1 Ei's elbow).

All in all, they're within the same speed tier.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 1, 2015)

You are out of your mind.

Sasuke blitzed Naruto and was too much for Deidara to stay on the ground. He didn't even use Shunshin against Killer B (who would slice Tsunade to pieces anyway). 

On the other hand, Tsunade hasn't pressured a single relevant character with Shunshin. She hit a Madara clone and got stabbed for it because it was a feint. 

In perception, it isn't even close. Sasuke's faster than Tsunade to begin with and has a matured Sharingan on top of that.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 1, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> That was white zetsu, and it was a literal set-up death for Kisame's infiltration plan.


Yeah, but Zetsu makes perfect copies of their bodies down to their chakra-signature, he even replicated Kisame's Kisamehada mode very well. I doubt he would have trouble doing anything that Kisame could.


DaVizWiz said:


> MS Sasuke tiers faster than Tsunade?
> 
> Definitely not the case. Killer Bee was jobbing him while dealing with Suigetsu & CS1 Jugo all simultaneously, and blitzed him with 6 blade stabs 1 on 1. He needed Susano & Amaterasu to keep killing Danzo, and Danzo avoided his Susano attacks twice (moved faster than his perception allowed the Susano to re-direct while the attack was in motion).
> 
> ...


Pre-Hebi Sasuke was rated in the same category as Kakashi (Tier 4.5) I believe, I don't think it has changed since then (even after losing Hebi powers). I put Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi at a full tier ahead of Tsunade, with the additional precoginition from the sharingan, I don't see either Sasuke or Kakashi ever having difficulty following Tsunade's movements.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 1, 2015)

The Raikage was an inch away from Minato's face and only Hiraishin helped.

Tsunade doesn't have Minato's reflexes.
Tsunade won't react to Raikage.
Or being more generous, even if she sees him, she won't touch him.

Even Sharingan precog Sasuke couldn't keep a track on him. I see this too simple to have 18 pages, with all respect.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 1, 2015)

I don't know why people keep harping on about Tsunade being a speedster. 

3.5 speed =/= speedster.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 1, 2015)

But guys she can use here Byakugo chakra and move faster because I want her to


----------



## Shanal (Dec 1, 2015)

Also, it's fun how some people claimed that head smashing is too OOC for Ei when he clearly went for a head smash against Minato


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 2, 2015)

People say the same thing about Kakashi, even though he went clearly for the head against Pain on multiple occasions.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2015)

> You are out of your mind.


Bro, you put MS Sasuke in the same line as Raikage & Minato when referring to speed. You don't have a mind. 



> Sasuke blitzed Naruto and was too much for Deidara to stay on the ground. He didn't even use Shunshin against Killer B (who would slice Tsunade to pieces anyway).


Sasuke blitzed Pre-wind training Naruto, while he was in base?

Congrats... I guess?

Deidara was blitzed by Sai's ink bird.... 



> On the other hand, Tsunade hasn't pressured a single relevant character with Shunshin. She hit a Madara clone and got stabbed for it because it was a feint.


She punched Orochimaru in the face several times.... 

No one has blitzed Tsuande in the manga....



> In perception, it isn't even close. Sasuke's faster than Tsunade to begin with and has a matured Sharingan on top of that.


I wouldn't say that. He has a small percentage advantage on her at best as it pertains to perception.

He couldn't perceive V2 Ei, so we know his cap. The fastest he perceived was V1 Killer Bee, and Kisame was countering that...

*Kisame*. 



> Yeah, but Zetsu makes perfect copies of their bodies down to their chakra-signature, he even replicated Kisame's Kisamehada mode very well. I doubt he would have trouble doing anything that Kisame could.


Highly unlikely white zetsu cloning Minato = reactions on par with Minato. 

Zero difference as it pertains to cloning Kisame. 

Kisame previously reacting to V1 Killer Bee's attacks, and then failing to react to his V1 lariat (as that white zetsu clone) is a direct indication that was white zetsu's reactions, not Kisame's. 



> Pre-Hebi Sasuke was rated in the same category as Kakashi (Tier 4.5) I believe, I don't think it has changed since then (even after losing Hebi powers). I put Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi at a full tier ahead of Tsunade, with the additional precoginition from the sharingan, I don't see either Sasuke or Kakashi ever having difficulty following Tsunade's movements.


Databook stats mean nothing to me, you should have realized that by now.

Neji, the dude who hasn't shown a Ninjutsu in the entire manga, was ranked higher than Pre-wind arc Naruto (1,000 Shadow Clones, Rasengan, Boss Summoning, Odama Rasengan) in Ninjutsu. 

There is a laundry list of ridiculous scoring that contradicts the manga, it's unreliable and largely idiotic to reference on here.

I know for a fact Darui reacted to him and spit a multi-element ninjutsu that hit him without a reaction. I know for a fact Base Killer Bee stabbed him six times without a reaction. I know for a fact Base Killer Bee was clowning him, CS1 Jugo & Suigetsu simultaneously in close quarter combat while unarmed. I know for a fact Danzo put his arm on his neck. I know for a fact Danzo ran around him while critically wounded (torn off arm, previous blade through the stomach) and exhausted (10 Izanagi, boss summon, several wind variants, Mokuton tree) while Sasuke was trying to land Chidori on him, fresh after biting Karin and recovering. I know for a fact he couldn't perceive V2 Ei. 

He may be faster than her, but he isn't in a different speed tier than her.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 2, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> She punched Orochimaru in the face several times.



Interesting definition of blitz. My turn: Part I Tsunade was struggling to tag Kabuto, who quite literally _got a Rasengan slammed into his chest a few chapters later by BASE PART UNO NARUTO *WITH A BROKEN FUCKING LEG.*_ 

gg

Part I Orochimaru couldn't blitz Old Hiruzen, by the way. I don't remember any speed feats from him, except having his movements perceived by Forest of Death Sasuke. 



DaVizWiz said:


> No one has blitzed Tsuande in the manga.



I don't really care, Nobody has blitzed Moegi either. Tsunade barely fought anybody. She fought Kabuto, who literally admitted to being a scrub in taijutsu, and she still wasn't fast enough to run him down. She didn't engage Pain until she was ready to collapse into a coma, and thus got blitzed by Asura Path. Madara was jobbing the entire time and _still_ hit her with nearly every attack he threw at her. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Deidara was blitzed by Sai
> 
> V1 B was perceived by Kisame



What do they have to do with Tsunade?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2015)

> Interesting definition of blitz. My turn: Part I Tsunade was struggling to tag Kabuto, who quite literally _got a Rasengan slammed into his chest a few chapters later by BASE PART UNO NARUTO *WITH A BROKEN FUCKING LEG.*_


Kabuto who was enhanced with a solider pill.

She then got over her fear of blood, and clobbered Orochimaru several times without a reaction. 



> Part I Orochimaru couldn't blitz Old Hiruzen, by the way. I don't remember any speed feats from him, except having his movements perceived by Forest of Death Sasuke.


Part I Orochimaru literally blitzed behind him and put a kunai to his neck.

After that point, stood there, summoned Edo Tensei to block shuriken technique, literally stood in the same spot for remainder of the battle. 



> I don't really care, Nobody has blitzed Moegi either. Tsunade barely fought anybody. She fought Kabuto, who literally admitted to being a scrub in taijutsu, and she still wasn't fast enough to run him down. She didn't engage Pain until she was ready to collapse into a coma, and thus got blitzed by Asura Path. Madara was jobbing the entire time and _still_ hit her with nearly every attack he threw at her.


>Tsunade blitzes Kabuto out of double chakra scalpel slapping his bitch ass down
>Conducts herself, clobbers the shit out of Orochimaru several times temporarily knocking him unconscious
>Didn't fight Pain
>Blindsided her once with a Susano Blade phasing out of a tree below her 
>Destroyed his clone previously
>Reacted to his shunshin & katon variant prior to any of the Gokage, slapping the flames away
>Leaped a kilometer into the air and kicked the Susano without a reaction from Madara before Flying Ei could reach him from 20m
>Kicked him out of light travel
>Reacted to Manda spewing out of the ground, leaped 200m into the air with Gamabunta's Blade, slammed it into Manda's head before he could move his head 30m to eat Gamabunta, before Gamabunta reacted 

>In the same speed tier as Hebi Sasuke



> What do they have to do with Tsunade?


....because his best speed feat was against KN1 Killer Bee


----------



## Rocky (Dec 2, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kabuto who was enhanced with a solider pill.



Yeah, Soldier Pill Kabuto is like tiers faster than Normal Kabuto.



DaVizWiz said:


> Clobbered Orochimaru several times without a reaction. Part I Orochimaru literally blitzed behind him and put a kunai to his neck.



Since we're calling everything a blitz, Tsunade couldn't blitz Kabuto (he ran out  of breath before taking the soldier pill), who was blitzed by Part I Naruto.



DaVizWiz said:


> Reacted to Madara's katon



This is the only thing you listed that can be considered a speed feat, and all it does is tell us that Tsunade can jump into something and swat before Mei can weave seals and use ninjutsu.

That is more damning for Mei than it is good for Tsunade...



DaVizWiz said:


> ....because his best speed feat was against KN1 Killer Bee



What do _Sai & Kisame_ have to do with Tsunade..?



DaVizWiz said:


> Reacted to Manda spewing out of the ground, leaped 200m into the air with Gamabunta's Blade, slammed it into Manda's head before he could move his head 30m to eat Gamabunta, before Gamabunta reacted



That reminds me. 

_After_ Deidara used C0, Sasuke summoned Manda, made eye contact, put Manda in a genjutsu, jumped in Manda's mouth, and reverse summoned before C0 obliterated him from like five meters away.

Dem interception feats.


----------



## Shanal (Dec 2, 2015)

Pills don't even boost speed...

Also, these blitz examples


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2015)

> Yeah, Soldier Pill Kabuto is like tiers faster than Normal Kabuto.


....why would he eat it if it didn't enhance his ability... 





> Since we're calling everything a blitz, *Tsunade couldn't blitz Kabuto* (he ran out  of breath before taking the soldier pill), who was blitzed by Part I Naruto.








> This is the only thing you listed that can be considered a speed feat, and all it does is tell us that Tsunade can jump into something and swat before Mei can weave seals and use ninjutsu.




Clobbered 



Clobbered 



Reacted 




Reacted 



Clobbered 

Kinrin Tensei Baku

Clobbered 

Link removed

Sent Packin'

Link removed

Reacted 


Link removed

Sent Packin'


----------



## Rocky (Dec 2, 2015)

I stopped when Kabuto closed his eyes. 

I do wonder what any of these characters have to do with Sasuke to begin with.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2015)

>Eyes open prior to being struck
>Failed to counter 9 other speed feats
>Concession accepted

Goodnight.


----------



## Shanal (Dec 2, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> ....why would he eat it if it didn't enhance his ability...



Reread Asuma's explanation about pills, they don't physically boost your stats. 


>



Well, he closed his eyes and she was next to him on her knees, obviously he would get hit before realizing, and it's not like she could do any considerably damage. Kabuto underestimated her.


> Clobbered
> 
> 
> 
> Clobbered



How... are all these speed feats...? She literally grabbed his tongue, pulled him and landed a hit. And then got blitzed and stabbed and then when Orochimaru tried to hit Naruto, she crawled over his body. Big deal.

How in the world does it put her anywhere good in speed to not get blitzed by Ei?


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 2, 2015)

Tsunade got behind Kabuto when he had his eyes closed. Wich is why he opens them and is surprised that she's not there, and the next panel shows her hitting him from behind. 

There's no way Tsunade without damage would fail to blitz Kabuto, but a stabbed one would.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 2, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Reread Asuma's explanation about pills, they don't physically boost your stats.



-snip- Choji's pills are not the same as Medical Ninja pills.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 2, 2015)

Who cares anyway. Reverse Shosen kills Ei. If that doesnt work two or three punches kills him. If that doesnt work Katsuyu kills him. If that doesnt work, Ranshinsho and Chakra Scalpel to the neck.

GG

Raikage wankers should just read this scan ten times over and shut their mouths and go to bed.


----------



## Shanal (Dec 2, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> -snip-. Choji's pills are not the same as Medical Ninja pills.





You do realize that Asuma was describing Kiba's military pills at first place. And that Kabuto was never stated to use nothing else but military pills which boost a person's stamina/chakra reserves to allow them to fight on for days without getting tired and such.

As a matter of fact, unlike normal military pills, Chouji's pills DO boost speed, so I have NO idea why you even bring it up.

What you're saying here is like saying Sasuke's fireball jutsu has hotter fire than Itachi's fireball jutsu even though there's no proof of that and they are, as a matter of fact, both _fire._



> Raikage wankers should just read this scan ten times over and shut their mouths and go to bed.



Madara stated that she is physically stronger than Raikage while telling us that Raikage is faster.

Don't know why you bring it up, every single person here in this thread agrees that Tsunade is physically stronger, but that doesn't mean she wins. Jirobu is physically stronger than Kakashi given feats and DB entries, but does that mean JIrobu can beat Kakashi.

Either way, I am not into this thread much,but I just wanted to point out your biasness here.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The fact that A's fist was inches away from Minato's face before he had moved is evidence enough that no character that had ever faced it had ever responded to it. Characters the don't have Minato's reflexes get hit there, and characters that don't have Minato's perception of movement probably don't even see A to begin with.



The surprise factor might've had something to do with it considering how different Minato's expression is the next time Ay comes at him. Minato still had the time to flick up his kunai before he was smashed and was already about to strike before Ay ever stopped himself or Shunshin’d off again, though.

Tsunade and Bee only commenting about just seeing a yellow flash once Naruto used his quicker-than-Raikage Shunshin, even though Ay also wears a yellow shroud, kind of implies they could see more than just that flash of yellow when Ay Shunshin’d.



Rocky said:


> A is also bigger than most ninja, so she might not even be able to reach him without ducking under him like Sasuke. Moreover, A has the reflexes to _see_ whether or not her fist is going to connect with him. If, for whatever reason, the force of his blow didn't impede her from striking out at him, he could quickly activate Shunshin and reposition himself behind her before her fist got to him.



If her arm isn't long enough her leg ought to be, and if he uses the elbow either one should be long enough.

IIRC we debated this before, but...I don’t think Shunshin works like that where the user can just completely put on the breaks of one motion instantaneously and then zoom somewhere else, since we see things like Sasuke flying _past_ Tobi (who was already standing _behind_ Deidara), Raikage _skidding_ before Kagutsuchi and skidding _again_ alongside Naruto when trying to block him off, etc.

When Raikage swings the momentum from that action should still carry him forward for a bit, like it did against Obito (flew into a wall even though he already noticed his fist phase through Obito), Minato (was still moving by the time Minato teleported back to him even though he already saw Minato dodge), and Naruto (hit another wall). That might also explain why he didn’t just go around to Jūgo’s side and strike him instead of being blocked and why he didn’t Shunshin around Sasuke’s Chidori. If Tsunade timed her attack to the moment Ay attacks, that wouldn’t allow time for Raikage to hit her and then evade the strike she threw as well.



Rocky said:


> Even if they _somehow_ traded, he's durable and resilient enough to withstand things that would kill normal men so he's not going down to one blow anyway.



Raikage might not _die_ from one blow, but considering that Tsunade broke the same Susano’o which could withstand the chops that Ay used to take his arm off he probably wouldn’t be in any condition to actually beat her afterwards either.

Pity that Ay doesn't use Sōzō Saisei...



Rocky said:


> I'm going to remind you that even though she tagged along, Tsunade did a whole lotta' nothing during the actual confrontation.



She reacted to his punch, as opposed to just thinking to herself _“so fast I can’t even tell what’s going on”_ like the other Genin did during Lee vs Gaara.

Tsunade not actually fighting there doesn’t somehow detract from my point. What I’m addressing is where you said _“if there was something in the text that highlighted Tsunade's speed”_. We don’t need anything more in the text because what we already have implies she would have at least been able to hold her own on that field, and that is in and of itself already more than what the members of Taka had going for them before they actually had the opportunity to fight (the only reason _Tsunade_ didn’t was that Naruto believed she shouldn’t have to fight his fights for him).

If speed was her weakness and she were truly so slow that she couldn’t have even kept up, and would have in actuality been screaming _“fudgemonkeys, I’m too slow to even react to do anything”_ we probably wouldn’t have read what we did. We would have read them admitting that she was useless and a liability because she couldn’t even follow anything instead.



Rocky said:


> I apologize.



I know you weren't intending to offend.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 2, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> *Kisame*.
> 
> Highly unlikely white zetsu cloning Minato = reactions on par with Minato.
> 
> ...


According to the manga they are supposed to be perfect copies right down to the chakra signature (e.g. hence why no one could tell the difference except Naruto). I don't expect their reaction times or other physical attributes to be inherently skewed because of it.

Kisame never truly reacted to Killer Bee, he was cut up/injured and if not for Samehada, then he would be dead in the multiple skirmishes they had. Samehada did most of the heavy lifting by absorbing chakra from his Super Vibrato and V1/V2 forms.



> Databook stats mean nothing to me, you should have realized that by now.


It should because in the case of Kisame, it's actually dead on. [1][2][3][4][5]

The entire bout all Kisame did was just stick by Samehada and let it absorb as much chakra as possible and that doesn't prove or disprove his speed at all. You could make the argument that Base Killer Bee is probably in the same tier group of speed as Kisame. But the moment he dawns the V1 cloak, he has a considerable advantage and the same goes for the V2 cloak.



DaVizWiz said:


> Neji, the dude who hasn't shown a Ninjutsu in the entire manga, was ranked higher than Pre-wind arc Naruto (1,000 Shadow Clones, Rasengan, Boss Summoning, Odama Rasengan) in Ninjutsu.
> 
> There is a laundry list of ridiculous scoring that contradicts the manga, it's unreliable and largely idiotic to reference on here.


The difference is the manga isn't about Neji but it did go out of it's way to state that he reached "jounin" level, which implies that he should be able to use at the very least 2 elements, which is further supported by his ability to use three different elemental natures (earth, fire and water) in the 4th Databook. More to the point, Neji's apart of a squad that specializes in taijutsu alone, so it makes sense that Neji would opt to use what he's comfortable with as opposed to reverting to ninjutsu. The same could be said about all the other rookies as well, we only saw Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura's progression throughout Part 2, but according to their statistic charts in Databook 3, all of the rookies improved considerably. Kishimoto just didn't have enough time to highlight their improvements, but then again they aren't the main characters but something should have been given.



DaVizWiz said:


> I know for a fact Darui reacted to him and spit a multi-element ninjutsu that hit him without a reaction.


Darui is a kekkai-genkia user, this was as natural for him to do as Yamato with his earth/water demonstration. More to the point, Sasuke wasn't even going for a blitz, it was just a charge to draw out the opponent.



DaVizWiz said:


> I know for a fact Base Killer Bee stabbed him six times without a reaction. I know for a fact Base Killer Bee was clowning him, CS1 Jugo & Suigetsu simultaneously in close quarter combat while unarmed.


This has more to do with KB's taijutsu and kenjutsu skill than it does with his speed as well as Sasuke's lack of experience in taijutsu/kenjutsu. In the databook Sasuke was rated at a 3.5 in taijutsu which is barely above average at the time. Killer Bee who has had war-experience, training with swords (effectively creating his own new style) is on another level in comparison. Base Killer Bee probably wasn't faster than him in pure body speed but his taijutsu/kenjutsu is distinctly higher. Tsunade, who is an expert at close-range combat would probably emasculate Sasuke.

Another perspective worth looking at is Itachi vs. Killer Bee, Itachi was rated to be in the same taijutsu tier as Kakashi, Kisame, Hidan, Neji (Tier 4.5) and his analysis pushed him into a defensive approach, whereas Sasuke attempted an offensive style while using his swords. It's easy to conclude that Sasuke's inexperience/lack of skill here is the reason why he got shat on Killer Bee not that he was slower or faster than him.



DaVizWiz said:


> I know for a fact Danzo put his arm on his neck. I know for a fact Danzo ran around him while critically wounded (torn off arm, previous blade through the stomach) and exhausted (10 Izanagi, boss summon, several wind variants, Mokuton tree) while Sasuke was trying to land Chidori on him, fresh after biting Karin and recovering.


To be quite fair, Danzo had multiple body modifications and using Hashirama's cells, we saw that Obito negated the drawbacks of MS of using said body. I don't think Danzo's a good example of demonstrating perfect speed tiers and even in that example of being tagged by Danzo, Sasuke was going to slice through his arm anyway, so it didn't matter in the end except for the seal, which is something I don't think he saw coming.



DaVizWiz said:


> I know for a fact he couldn't perceive V2 Ei.


He dodged V1 Ei who is technically supposed to the fastest in comparison to the rest, at that point, I do believe Sasuke is in the 4.5 tier group and likewise Kakashi. 



DaVizWiz said:


> He may be faster than her, but he isn't in a different speed tier than her.


He (4.5) is in another speed tier than her, same with Kisame (4.0). Tsunade is rated among a group consisting of Hidan and Pre-SM Naruto.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 2, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Don't know why you bring it up, every single person here in this thread agrees that Tsunade is physically stronger, but that doesn't mean she wins. Jirobu is physically stronger than Kakashi given feats and DB entries, but does that mean JIrobu can beat Kakashi.



The difference is Kakashi is physically weaker yet can take him out with Kamui or some other jutsu

All the Raikage has is taijutsu. Tsunade has better taijutsu plus even more medical ninjutsu etc.

If all Kakashi had was taijutsu he would lose to Jirobo.

Does my point make sense now?

And tell me how Raikage counters the following:
- Chakra Scalpel to the neck (can kill anyone, has even put down Orochimaru before)
- Body Pathway Derangement (Kabuto is a bookworm so could adapt, as opposed to Raikage who has a void of angry thoughts where his brain should be)
- Reverse Shosen (Kabuto knocked Kiba out cold. Tsunade has Bijuu reserves and if she injects that into Ei he dies. Especially since it can even kill Orochimaru,)
- Zesshi Nensan (another attack thats been implied to be able to neg diff Orochimaru, whose way more resilient and durable and just overall more powerful than Raikage)

Because besides a couple of punches, all of these moves mean GG for Raikage. The best thing about it is they are all CQC. CQC is Raikages only fighting style and even if that doesnt work Katsuyu can create a distance and fight from there. Its like Drugged Jiraiya VS Sealed Orochimaru. Orochimaru is a ninjustu specialist and can beat Jiraiay without any jutsu. Tsunade is a medical specialist and she could beat Raikage with just punches alone due to the fact shes stronger. They will have a boxing match and Tsunade will win. But on top of that she has the 4 instant GG moves i listed above which can easily be injected into her CQC fighting style. She low diffs Raikage. Thats my final post in this thread, at least for the time being.


----------



## Ghost (Dec 2, 2015)

>Kamui is what allows Kakashi to beat Jirobo

Sure buddy.


----------



## Shanal (Dec 2, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> All the Raikage has is taijutsu. Tsunade has better taijutsu plus even more medical ninjutsu etc.
> 
> If all Kakashi had was taijutsu he would lose to Jirobo.



No, Kakashi would blitz Jirobu and chop his head off with a Raikari, something similar to how Ei can do with stronger but slower opponents.



> And tell me how Raikage counters the following:
> - Chakra Scalpel to the neck (can kill anyone, has even put down Orochimaru before)
> - Body Pathway Derangement (Kabuto is a bookworm so could adapt, as opposed to Raikage who has a void of angry thoughts where his brain should be)
> - Reverse Shosen (Kabuto knocked Kiba out cold. Tsunade has Bijuu reserves and if she injects that into Ei he dies. Especially since it can even kill Orochimaru,)
> ...



I already said it, I am not here to debate the entire outcome and I don't disagree with you overall, too tired. I just wanted to point out that you were wrong with Tsunade winning only because she is stronger physically.

Or Kabuto's pills somehow boost his speed for I don't know what bizarre reasons


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 2, 2015)

Ghost said:


> >Kamui is what allows Kakashi to beat Jirobo
> 
> Sure buddy.



Kakashi could beat him with a C Rank Katon but i was just using an example so dont shade me


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 2, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> If all Kakashi had was taijutsu he would lose to Jirobo.



This might the single dumbest thing you've said.

*Jirobo:* 
Ninjutsu: 3
Genjutsu: 1
Taijutsu: 4
Intel: 2
Speed: 2
Seal: 2.5
*Strength: 5
Stamina: 4*

*Kakashi:*
*Ninjutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 4
Taijutsu: 4.5
Intel: 5
Speed: 4.5
Seal: 5*
Strength: 3.5
Stamina: 3

I don't see how Kakashi loses, especially if he's using a weapon.

You can't beat an opponent that trumps you in not only speed, skill but intelligence as well. It's almost never happened where.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 2, 2015)

Shanal said:


> No, Kakashi would blitz Jirobu and chop his head off with a Raikari, something similar to how Ei can do with stronger but slower opponents.


Raikiri isnt Taijutsu its a Ninjutsu but im not surprised as when do you ever have an idea of what youre talking about?





> I already said it, I am not here to debate the entire outcome and I don't disagree with you overall, too tired. I just wanted to point out that you were wrong with Tsunade winning only because she is stronger physically.


Thats not why she wins but that alone makes her Raikage's equal. She has Regen meaning nothing Raikage does is relevant but he has speed so i can say the same for him. But with Chakra Scalpel, Ranshinsho and Reverse Shosen, Tsunade tips the advantage to her in CQC. 

Thats just one side. The other side is Katsuyu, who Raikage can only commit suicide or be melted by acid once she appears on the battlefield.



> Or Kabuto's pills somehow boost his speed for I don't know what bizarre reasons





> Military Rations Pills (兵糧丸, Hyōrōgan) are special pills that replenish one's chakra and nourish the body. It is made up of powerful stimulants and nutrients, said to allow the user to keep fighting for three days and three nights without rest. At the end of the three days effect, the shinobi is brought to the point of complete and utter exhaustion.



I doesnt even matter as Tsunade doesnt need to be fast to beat Raikage. Having speed doesnt mean you win a battle.
Raikage didnt beat Sasuke
Killer B didnt beat Sasuke
Gai didnt beat Madara
Lee didnt beat Kimimaro
Jiraiya didnt beat Hanzo
Mifune didnt beat Hanzo
Itachi didnt beat Sasuke
Hidan didnt beat Shikamaru
*Suigetsu didnt beat Darui* (yeah exactly Shanal so stop wanking him as Kimimaro would beat Darui)
Kakuzu didnt beat any one that was slower than him i.e. Kakashi, Yamato, Naruto, Ino, Choji


----------



## Shanal (Dec 2, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Raikiri isnt Taijutsu its a Ninjutsu but im not surprised as when do you ever have an idea of what youre talking about?



Raikage can chop things off as neatly as cutting them, don't see how it's much different. Just because one is physically stronger that doesn't mean Ei's punches won't smash their heads. Ei is strong himself (Note, I am not referring to Tsunade). 






> Thats not why she wins but that alone makes her Raikage's equal. She has Regen meaning nothing Raikage does is relevant but he has speed so i can say the same for him. But with Chakra Scalpel, Ranshinsho and Reverse Shosen, Tsunade tips the advantage to her in CQC.
> 
> Thats just one side. The other side is Katsuyu, who Raikage can only commit suicide or be melted by acid once she appears on the battlefield.



I said I am not talking about them, but you're spam posting the image of Madara claiming Tsunade is stronger physically, I don't know why, everyone agreed to that.



> Raikage didnt beat Sasuke



Sasuke had sharingan and perfect defense, plus wasn't that slower.


> Killer B didnt beat Sasuke


He did, Sasuke was about to die but Suigetsu saved him, then he was healed by Karin.



> Gai didnt beat Madara



Madara had those god powers. And Gai was PHYSICALLY STRONGER too, and yet he didn't beat Madara. Plus, Madara could REACT to Gai, so he was fast.


> Lee didnt beat Kimimaro


Kimimaro was faster than injured Lee :/



> Jiraiya didnt beat Hanzo


Base Jiraiya is not fast feat-wise, we don't know if Jiraiya could go SM back then.


> Mifune didnt beat Hanzo


Yeah, Hanzo suicided 


> Itachi didnt beat Sasuke


Itachi wasn't faster, really, not that much, they were almost equal, plus Itachi was sick with sloppy movements.



> Hidan didnt beat Shikamaru



Not 1 vs 1.


> Kakuzu didnt beat any one that was slower than him i.e. Kakashi, Yamato, Naruto, Ino, Choji[



Same reason as above.

Speed isn't everything, but is more critical than pure power. Specially if the speedy one himself has decent strength.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 2, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The surprise factor might've had something to do with it considering how different Minato's expression is the next time Ay comes at him.



There's going to be a degree of surprise in every Shunshin, though. The technique can be used pretty much without forewarning, and it isn't as if A didn't get close to Minato the second time at all. 



FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade and Bee only commenting about just seeing a yellow flash once Naruto used his quicker-than-Raikage Shunshin.



I believe they were commenting on the fact that he evaded A's punch just like Minato (_The_ Yellow Flash) did. Tsunade was supposedly finishing B's thought. 

The Shunshin Naruto used on Kisame was the one he was using on A the entire time. B compared him to Minato there too, but Yamato then said that Naruto hadn't actually reached Minato's level of skill (for getting stuck).



FlamingRain said:


> IIRC we debated this before, but...I don’t think Shunshin works like that where the user can just completely put on the breaks of one motion instantaneously and then zoom somewhere else.



I do remember discussing it a bit with somebody. 

They can, or at least they've shown the ability to before. When Naruto was dashing in one direction away from Tsunade, and A suddenly flickers at him while he's in mid-sprint (his left foot is still raised), he suddenly pops up behind A's right shoulder. You also have A planning into instantly change direction after forcing Minato to jump to one of his Kunai so that he could meet him there.

Shunshin isn't your standard sprint. Hell, have you ever seen somebody accelerate to sprint speeds while moving _directly to their left_ like A did against Amaterasu?



FlamingRain said:


> When Raikage swings the momentum from that action should still carry him forward for a bit [...] That might also explain why he didn’t just go around to Jūgo’s side and strike him instead of being blocked and why he didn’t Shunshin around Sasuke’s Chidori.



A's momentum would have been carrying him forward when he swung out at Minato the second time, but he still thought he could Shunshin in whatever direction was necessary to meet Minato at his Kunai. Naruto's momentum would've been carrying him forward, and he _did_ Shunshin back the other way.

I'm of the opinion that A could have evaded Chidori with Shunshin if he wanted to, but considering that A didn't think Chidori was going to do anything to him (and it really didn't) and Sasuke was going to be right there for a subsequent liger bomb, there was no need. 

He probably could have gone around Jūgo's shield too. Lee & Sasuke were doing something similiar when they were going around Gaara's sand, and they didn't even need to use Shunshin. A punched and put a hole through Jūgo despite the block though, so there was no need. Quick change of direction isn't the most difficult thing in the world for a _ninja._ 

A's not going to ignore Tsunade's fist when he sees it on his way to him. He knows how strong she is, so that would be stupid. She's not exactly a speed demon, so her counter-punch isn't going to surprise him or anything. Even if he's already swung out at her, he can still use his legs to quickly leap to the side so she misses, or activate Shunshin if necessary to essentially teleport behind her.  



FlamingRain said:


> Raikage might not _die_ from one blow, but considering that Tsunade broke the same Susano’o which could withstand the chops that Ay used to take his arm off he probably wouldn’t be in any condition to actually beat her afterwards either.



A wasn't covered in his armor when he took his own arm off.



FlamingRain said:


> If speed was her weakness and she were truly so slow that she couldn’t have even kept up, and would have in actuality been screaming _“fudgemonkeys, I’m too slow to even react to do anything”_ we probably wouldn’t have read what we did



Katsuyu said that in the anime. 

Seriously though, Tsunade isn't a "welp I'm useless" type of person to begin with. Tsunade didn't just ?\_(ツ)_/? when Mabui told her she'd be torn to pieces inside of Heavenly Transfer. Tsunade didn't just ?\_(ツ)_/? when Madara used Perfect Susanoo, even though that could take care of all five kage. I don't know why you expected her to act any differently here.

Her speed _is_ her biggest weakness because it's her lowest stat in the Databook. It is wishful thinking to assume that she'd keep up with one of the quickest characters in the story. If Tsunade can "keep up", then mostly everyone could "keep up", which contradicts the "Sharingan cannot keep up" thing.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 3, 2015)

We’re going to keep disagreeing Rocky, so I may or may not decide to come back and edit this post by responding to your other quotes.

I’m still not sold on Tsunade simply being unable to keep up since she was shown reacting before Raikage’s punch landed on Naruto on-panel, and in light of the fact that she was asked by Raikage to assist and then decided to challenge him afterward, _that makes sense_. There is no more attention than that necessary. If she couldn’t have even kept up, Kishimoto would have just written her being unable to tell what the mess was even going on like he has done numerous times before, or left her at the HQ.

The ones doing the wishful thinking are the people claiming that that last sentence is what would actually happen even though it didn’t when it should have (if it would have, that is), and we just need to pretend the aforementioned details actually there weren’t even there.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 3, 2015)

I wonder... Can Onoki kill Gai with Jinton while he charges Night Guy? Because...Kakashi had a lot of time to day dream when Gai was charging it.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 3, 2015)

I would guess so since Gai wasn't moving around when charging it.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 3, 2015)

So, Gai developed his ultimate technique, that can be countered by a simple katon or a Kunai throw.

Let's put it better: Haku can appear behind Gai while he charges (or at a reasonable distance) and put a senbon in his throat, killing him?


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 3, 2015)

Charge times exist, bro.

Bee threw a sword at Itachi while he was charging the Mangekyō and didn't move.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 3, 2015)

Flamey, so you believe that Tsunade could keep up RCM A & KCM Naruto, even though Naruto was surprised that _one of the five Kage_ could keep up, and A is supposedly too quick for the Sharingan to keep up with?

I am certainly not wishfully thinking here. Gaara (3) could not keep up with Sasuke (3.5), and even if you want to take Databook stats with a grain of salt, RCM A would have like a 6 in the Databook. Tsunade is sitting at 3.5.

Tsunade being able to see A punch does not mean she can keep up with him, just like Preskip Sakura seeing Sasuke's Chidori does not mean she can keep up with him.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Charge times exist, bro.
> 
> Bee threw a sword at Itachi while he was charging the Mangekyō and didn't move.



Then Haku can beat Gai.

We always go to technical wen it comes to Tsunade, but this time we're abusing, bro. (talking about her talking in a fight she was not).

Bee managed that because Nagato sensed him. I actually expected an answer like "No, Gai can move while charging" or something. But we're going too far to prove a point.

My apologies for interrupting your conversation with Rocky, but there's another point i noticed, and is Tsunade saying she will fight Ei.

I mean, that doesn't explain much. Tsunade near coma went to fight Pain. And look how she was about to end.


----------



## Alex Payne (Dec 3, 2015)

Gaara had 2.0 Speed when he fought 3.0 Sasuke.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 3, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Gaara had 2.0 Speed when he fought 3.0 Sasuke.



I thought the second Databook was from before the exam finals, but regardless, there's a giant disparity between enhanced A & Tsunade, even if we're generous to her. If you bump Sasuke up to equal Lee but keep Gaara at 2.0, you get:

*Gaara:* 2.0

*Sasuke:* 4.0

*Tsunade:* 3.5

*RCM A:* 5+

It's a comparable gap, and that isn't even factoring in Raikage's excellent Shunshin speed.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Gaara had 2.0 Speed when he fought 3.0 Sasuke.



 To be honest, that'd still be illogical for a 1 tier gap to result in a blitz.

 Kakashi couldn't even blitz Hidan even with a 1.0 speed gap.


----------



## Alex Payne (Dec 3, 2015)

1st Databook covered everything up Orochimaru fighting Sarutobi. Proof - entry about Suna Bunshin with an example of Sasuke smashing it. CE Sasuke was rated 3.0(equal to Lee's 4.0 indeed). CE Gaara was rated 2.0. 2nd Databook covered everything up the end of Kakashi Gaiden. So its stats are from SRA. 

Tsunade's 3.5 speed stat is before Pain Invasion. She might have improved for all we know. We have no means of learning her War Arc "stats".

Either way, guys. I think you understand now why I don't like using DB stats at all.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 3, 2015)

"For all we know," A has like a 7.0 in the Databook. My _main_ point is that speed was her weakest asset, and it is A's strongest one. Not a good combination. It's going to be the same as weightless Lee vs Gaara. Just replace Gaara's sand with Tsunade's attempts to trade hits.


----------



## Ghoztly (Dec 3, 2015)

I don't think it's unreasonable to say Tsunade can react to the Raikage.

Mentally anyways.

She is still getting powerbombed through the earth though. 20 pages for no goddamn reason at all. She is nowhere near fast enough physically.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Then Haku can beat Gai.
> 
> We always go to technical wen it comes to Tsunade, but this time we're abusing, bro. (talking about her talking in a fight she was not).
> 
> Bee managed that because Nagato sensed him. I actually expected an answer like "No, Gai can move while charging" or something. But we're going too far to prove a point.



When I answered your question I was imagining that we placed Ohnoki there with everybody else as they were, and had him try to use Jinton. Haku could have thrown a senbon, too.

Bee throwing the sword because Nagato alerted him to Itachi charging the Mangekyō is irrelevant- there was still time for Bee to throw that sword when he tried to.



> My apologies for interrupting your conversation with Rocky, but there's another point i noticed, and is Tsunade saying she will fight Ei.
> 
> I mean, that doesn't explain much. Tsunade near coma went to fight Pain. And look how she was about to end.



Tsunade is the woman who tried suppressing Jiraiya?s power by slipping him a powder when she was considering preparing sacrifices for Dan and Nawaki, called _Naruto_ back when she found out Pain was in the village, who told Shikaku that _Ohnoki_ should be the one to face Mū, and who told Shikaku they ought  to use Hiraishin to get _Mei_ to the battlefield because of Madara's Katons.

Raikage and Tsunade both intending for her to get involved in the encounter is still something that on balance suggests it is more probable than not that Tsunade would at least be able to keep up on that field. It's more than Suigetsu and Jūgo had going for them, and unlike Tsunade they aren't in Raikage's competitive range to begin with.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 3, 2015)

Tsunade > Raikage
The manga supports this
thread/


----------



## Rocky (Dec 3, 2015)

Tsunade's presence didn't dissuade A from knocking B out of the way and amplifying to full power so that he could go at Naruto. To me, that didn't look like he expected her to be capable of stopping him.

What's more, Taka never really "kept up". Suigetsu blocked a coordinated strike with Darui and then get his arms torn off. Jūgo blocked one punch and received a hole in his chest to show for it. He tried counter-attacking point blank with A stuck in his chest, but he missed anyway and got blindsided by Erubō. 

Sasuke could only evade A with his Sharingan, and he could only hit A when the Raikage made no effort to avoid him in the first place. Without Susanoo, he'd have been killed by Liger Bomb, and when Sasuke began using abilities that A knew he had to evade, even the "unavoidable" Amaterasu wasn't quick enough to land.


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 3, 2015)

Why is this thread still alive


----------



## Alex Payne (Dec 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> "For all we know," A has like a 7.0 in the Databook. My _main_ point is that speed was her weakest asset, and it is A's strongest one. Not a good combination. It's going to be the same as weightless Lee vs Gaara. Just replace Gaara's sand with Tsunade's attempts to trade hits.


This is a rather weak argument. Speed was Part 1 Lee's strongest asset. Wouldn't help against Tsunade. Then there are people who while not having exceptional speed have high reactions(SRA Naruto). Then there are supplementary/defensive abilities that allow slower people to counter superior speed. Speed alone is very rarely the sole deciding factor. Shocking, I know.

Like - how many canon fights there where speed alone was the reason behind one side's victory? Minato vs Obito? You had your first speed-beats-all fight in Lee vs Gaara. Which you use as an example even. Problem is - Lee lost to a defensive build and a well-timed bunshin feint. First fight Raikage was in? Struggles against defensive moveset and loses an arm. Speedy Kimimaro choses bulky and slower CS2 to try and use brute force against Gaara because superior speed wasn't working. CE Sasuke needed a high-grade ninjutsu to use against Gaara because speed alone wasn't enough. 8th Gate Gate - _the_ Speed Demon of Narutoverese lost to a significantly slower regenerator while still needing outside help with his defensive moveset. KN4 was a good deal above Oro in physical stats. Orochimaru was perfectly fine with his defensive moves before his crappy body reminded about itself.  

I don't know about you but to me the track record of Speedsters vs Defensive Builds/Moves isn't favoring the speedy side...


----------



## Rocky (Dec 3, 2015)

...the entire argument is not "Tsunade loses because she cannot keep up." The argument is "Tsunade loses because she cannot keep up _and A has the ability to tear her body apart in one blow."_

A's speed isn't on a time limit like Lee's or Gai's, and Tsunade doesn't have a shield made of fire that burns for a week or a shield that outright erases you upon contact. If Madara just had regeneration like Tsunade, and Gai could keep going without turning into a pile of ash after a few minutes, what happens?


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Flamey, so you believe that Tsunade could keep up RCM A & KCM Naruto, even though Naruto was surprised that one of the five Kage could keep up



Obviously, or I wouldn't have bothered going back and forth with you for as long as I have already.

_"Keep up"_ is a colloquialism. Naruto was surprised that one of the Five Kage could _straight up match his direct movement speed with his own_, not that they could react to him, and Tsunade is also one of the Five Kage. Raikage telling Tsunade to get in there to help him and Tsunade challenging Raikage both happened _after_ that, too, meaning I do not particularly care.

Tsunade making a move when Raikage threw his punch means she can make a move when he swings like I've been suggesting, as opposed to not even being able to see it or do anything like you'd suggested. As far as I'm concerned the latter notion is out of line with what the characters involved in the manga seemed to anticipate, and the former not so much. If she couldn't have even reacted and held her own either she'd have been left at HQ or it would have been expressed once they got there (prior to the seeing a yellow flash) and they wouldn't have still intended for her to get involved.

But like I said, we would just keep going back and forth if I were to decide to continue. So you can disagree if you want to and like I know you will, but in the absence of that _I_ remain unconvinced that somebody at least the same competitive range as Raikage would be unable to even keep up as in react.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 3, 2015)

I thought I already went with your belief that Tsunade is capable of reacting. I just said that A could go around her leg regardless of whether or not he was in the middle of striking her, just like Sasuke went around Gaara's sand when it responded to his first.

The only thing I maintain is Tsunade not being able to follow A's "Teleportation Jutsu" Speed, otherwise known as Shunshin, because the entire point of that jutsu is to be imperceptible to fellow shinobi.


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 3, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> This is a rather weak argument. Speed was Part 1 Lee's strongest asset. Wouldn't help against Tsunade.


This in of itself is a rather weak argument. Lee's speed pre skip is no where near top tier in the verse, and likewise Lee's other stats are low mid tier at best. Raikage via scaling and hype has better reactions in base than Tsunade, and better Durability (he was not even scratched IIRC during light trans jutsu). His other stats are atleast high tier barring not having any ninjutsu. So when you have someone with those stats and the overwhelming speed advantage in his raiton cloak, it becomes a whole different ballpark to Tsunade.



> Then there are people who while not having exceptional speed have high reactions(SRA Naruto). Then there are supplementary/defensive abilities that allow slower people to counter superior speed. Speed alone is very rarely the sole deciding factor. Shocking, I know.


Except in Ei's case the author made it one hundred percent clear that speed is going to be the deciding factor in his fight, especially if he goes all out off the bat. Mi-freaking-nato was millimeters from a caved in face. Top Tier reactions, with sensing to boot. MS Sasuke could not track V2 Ei, and could barely mentally react. Tsunade get's hogtied by 3 tomoe Itachi, let alone any MS user in regards to reactions. Tsunade has abosuletly no perception enhancing techniques, or passive abilities. 



> Like - how many canon fights there where speed alone was the reason behind one side's victory? Minato vs Obito? You had your first speed-beats-all fight in Lee vs Gaara. Which you use as an example even.


- Haku was fucking people up solely based on his speed technique which even scared Kakashi with sharingan.
- Lee vs Sasuke was literally an *author highlighted fight which outlined a weakness to sharingan perception being that you need the physical speed to mount a reaction. *Why would this not apply double to people without sharingan or perception enhancing abilities?
- Gai showed superiority over several deadly Genin such as Gaara by intercepting them from very far distances, as well as the other special jounin/jounin when Neji tried to kill Hinata.
-Sasuke relied on his superior speed/skill to beat Oro's chakra absorbing fodder. Which was his lesson learned from Lee.
- Lee vs Gaara.
- Sasuke vs Gaara
- Naruto was hardpressed to fight both Kiba and Neji because they were bot faster and more skilled in taijutsu. Naruto in particular couldn't really do much against neji (who relied less on outright speed rather than with skill/reactions, and speed.) until he went fox mode for the speed boost.
- Kimmimaro outsped, and outskilled Naruto and his clones.
- KCM Naruto forced Sasuke to buff his stats at VOTE by relying on natural energy boost.
- Hebi Sasuke's speed allowed him to nearly solo Yamato, Naruto, Sakura, and Sai. He literally blitzed naruto and had his sword drawn with Naruto still looking at his original position.
- Hebi Sasuke would have soloed Diedara in one shushin had Sasuke not attempted to stab Tobi first before moving on to Diedara who barely managed to jump back.
- SM Jiraiya went from struggling heavy, to straight up being able to blitz paths with his speed (their advantage being having numerous paths to compensate.)
etc.




> First fight Raikage was in? Struggles against defensive moveset and loses an arm.


Except you mean he "struggled" against Sasuke randomly awakening one of the most hax defenses in the manga seconds before his demise? Also MS is not a defensive build, it's all around hax with offensive amaterasu (which is what lost Ei his arm), autowin genjutsu, and defense/offense of Susano-o.

Even if we agreed that was a counter to Ei, Tsunade would get mid diff'd by MS Sasuke with her feats at that time (and that's being generous.) and she has nothing comparable to generic MS build.





> I don't know about you but to me the track record of Speedsters vs Defensive Builds/Moves isn't favoring the speedy side...


All of those other examples show people who could compensate with other battlefield advantages and similar ranking stats in other fields. Like Gaara who had tsunami's worth of sand to work with/auto defense not reliant on his reactions. 

Orochimaru is as versatile as they come and specializes in escaping brute force death blows. 

Tsunade can regenerate and throw a hefty punch, but Ei's speed is too much over a long term battle for her, and V2 completely eclipses her. Ei can just blitz in and out getting in small skirmishes in V1 cutting her up, and all it will take his one head through the skull, or cutting her head off, which is more likely to happen given Ei's speed and reaction advantage.

One punch is also not going to knock Ei out for the count, and Tsuande's chances of landing strikes are lower. So if Ei hasn't already gone V2, once he gets smacked by her strength he's going to end the fight in a wait for it....Flash.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I thought I already went with your belief that Tsunade is capable of reacting. I just said that A could go around her leg regardless of whether or not he was in the middle of striking her, just like Sasuke went around Gaara's sand when it responded to his first.



Oh.

You said _"if the force of his blow didn't impede Tsunade"_, so I took that as you saying he would be able to _actually hit_ her _and then_ Shunshin away before she ever touched him. But I still think that if the strike were thrown in response to his, it'd get him while the force of that swing was still taking him forward.

Sasuke didn't have that to first stop like Raikage would since all he'd done was step forward after palm striking that sand clone.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> You said _"if the force of his blow didn't impede Tsunade"_, so I took that as you saying he would be able to _actually hit_ her _and then_ Shunshin away before she ever touched him.



Er, that would happen. Not only is he faster, she is _reacting_ to him, so he's going to get there first. 

So when he punches her, if that somehow does not stop her leg from continuing to move towards him, then he's _going_ to flicker away before it gets to him.

The only way she'd be able to hit him at the same time he hits her is if she begins to swing at him while he tries to close a distance, ala Mahiru vs Kakashi's Chidori. 

Thing is, A's going to see her try that and adjust appropriately, just like Kakashi would have if he'd had the Sharingan. Or rather, just like Minato adjusted to Obito upon seeing Obito's hand nearly get him.



FlamingRain said:


> But I still think that if the strike were thrown in response to his, it'd get him while the force of that swing was still taking him forward.



If that were the case, then A wouldn't have been able to use Shunshin as soon as Minato got to his Kunai so that he'd meet him there. If A had to wait for his momentum to stop, it'd defeat the purpose. 



FlamingRain said:


> Sasuke didn't have that to first stop like Raikage would since all he'd done was step forward after palm striking that sand clone.



He was still moving forward, was he not? There's still momentum involved.


----------



## A Optimistic (Dec 3, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Tsunade > Raikage
> The manga supports this
> thread/



Don't know what manga you've been reading.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> When I answered your question I was imagining that we placed Ohnoki there with everybody else as they were, and had him try to use Jinton. Haku could have thrown a senbon, too.
> 
> Bee throwing the sword because Nagato alerted him to Itachi charging the Mangekyō is irrelevant- there was still time for Bee to throw that sword when he tried to.



I meant putting Onoki in Madara's place. Being that technical, i don't see Kishimoto drawing Haku appearing behind Gai while they fight (Gai vs Haku) and killing him with a Senbon. It's different from outside intervention or speaking, that doesn't mean said character can do it in a one on one confrontation.

Rocky posted some pages a while ago. Sakura, Gai, Lee and Kakashi held a long conversation before Sasuke even managed to run off the wall. And that's being Chidori, whose mechanics needed sharingan, due to the huge speed one is running.

How then could Sakura and the others have a long conversation? I say that, doing this, has no impact on the fight itself, and it doesn't mean Sakura can have all that time in the world if she were there in Gaara's place.


> Tsunade is the woman who tried suppressing Jiraiya’s power by slipping him a powder when she was considering preparing sacrifices for Dan and Nawaki, called _Naruto_ back when she found out Pain was in the village, who told Shikaku that _Ohnoki_ should be the one to face Mū, and who told Shikaku they ought  to use Hiraishin to get _Mei_ to the battlefield because of Madara's Katons.
> 
> Raikage and Tsunade both intending for her to get involved in the encounter is still something that on balance suggests it is more probable than not that Tsunade would at least be able to keep up on that field. It's more than Suigetsu and Jūgo had going for them, and unlike Tsunade they aren't in Raikage's competitive range to begin with.



That also can be translated to contend with Ei when you're backed up by two other powerful kage levels. Thing is, that when something needs to be done, and there's no better way, Tsunade jumps in. She's not a coward, and's not affraid to die, doing so against Pain (who should be above the Gokage individually) while almost fainting is a good demostration of courage.

Now, that doesn't mean she thought or could beat Pain in that state.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 4, 2015)

Ava said:


> Don't know what manga you've been reading.



this one


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 4, 2015)

I know you know what Madara means here.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 4, 2015)

Tell me how Raikage gets out of Zesshi Nensan (amplified like Onoki's big jinton)


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 4, 2015)

I'm not here to still debate about who wins, underrating V2 speed and overrating her 3.5, let alone the acid who has never hit anybody but is going to hit the freaking Raikage. I just said you know what Madara meant in the panel you provided.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 4, 2015)

I domt care about speed
Zesshi Nensan is hitting Raikage
You say it didnt hit anyone, it was used against the fastest summon in the world so no
Give me a panel proving Raikage can evade it


LostSelf said:


> I'm not here to still debate about who wins, underrating V2 speed and overrating her 3.5, let alone the acid who has never hit anybody but is going to hit the freaking Raikage. I just said you know what Madara meant in the panel you provided.


So you agree Tsunade wins?


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 5, 2015)

Manda is faster than the Fourth Raikage... Acid will hit the Fourth Raikage... That's laughable.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 5, 2015)

> Not only is he faster, she is _reacting_ to him.



She'd be reacting to him throwing his strike, not to actually being hit by it, meaning at the point in which he actually hits her her own hit is already going to be right there.



> If that were the case, then A wouldn't have been able to use Shunshin as soon as Minato got to his Kunai so that he'd meet him there.



He wasn't able to, or Minato would have died before the Nine Tails attack. 

Raikage was going to watch the order at which Minato appeared at certain kunai to see if it was fixed and then try to meet him there if it was. Since Raikage'd only seen Minato teleport once and was still asking himself which place he’d pop up at, he didn’t intend to do it once he’d thrown that second attack.

Raikage planning to anticipate which Kunai Minato would appear at doesn’t mean he’d stop himself completely when he strikes and then zoom somewhere else; he could have simply Shunshin’d off in another direction as soon as he wasn’t being carried by his first swing anymore, or just continued the motion towards the next Kunai and then attacked.



> He was still moving forward, was he not? There's still momentum involved.



He was, but the foot the panel zooms in on landing was the one still in the air before that. He took one step. It’s non-comparable to Raikage's charge, as is Minato _teleporting_ against Obito before he was touched.



> I meant putting Onoki in Madara's place. It's different from outside intervention or speaking, that doesn't mean said character can do it in a one on one confrontation.



It means they would be able to if the opponent continued as they had been. The reason Ohnoki (and Haku) wouldn't be able to do it in a one-on-one is that Gai would obliterate him without even resorting to Yagai.



> Sakura, Gai, Lee and Kakashi held a long conversation before Sasuke even managed to run off the wall.



I'm not sure what this has to do with characters being able to act during charge times. 



> That also can be translated to contend with Ei when you're backed up by two other powerful kage levels.



That isn't what Naruto thinking Tsunade _"shouldn't fight my fights"_ implies.


I ought to remember this...


----------



## Rocky (Dec 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> She'd be reacting to him throwing his strike, not to actually being hit by it, meaning at the point in which he actually hits her her own hit is already going to be right there.



The time it takes for her to perceive and begin responding to his strike is time that A is _already using to move his fist towards her._ Then you've got to account for the difference in their speeds. A is definitely going to get there first, and if his punch doesn't stop her from continuing on to attempt to hit him, he's got the Raiton reflexes to see her and evade with Shunshin, if not his regular speed. 



> He wasn't able to, or Minato would have died before the Nine Tails attack.





I know his plan never worked, but I assume that was because he underestimated Minato's reflexes, not his own ability to change direction. 



> Raikage was going to watch the order at which Minato appeared at certain kunai to see if it was fixed and then try to meet him there if it was.



I don't actually think this was in the viz. I'm on a phone so I can't check right now, but I _think_ his plan was to try and meet Minato at the Kunai right then and there. Minato just went to B instead. 



> Raikage planning to anticipate which Kunai Minato would appear at doesn?t mean he?d stop himself completely when he strikes and then zoom somewhere else; he could have simply Shunshin?d off in another direction as soon as he wasn?t being carried by his first swing anymore, or just continued the motion towards the next Kunai and then attacked.



Well he was glancing behind him, so if he was planning to take off in that direction at his top speed, he couldn't have continued the first motion. He'd be going the wrong way. 

He wasn't going to wait for his momentum to stop either, because that'd give Minato more time to react, which defeats the purpose of the entire plan, imo. Wouldn't ramming into Tsunade stop his momentum anyway?



> He was, but the foot the panel zooms in on landing was the one still in the air before that. He took one step. It?s non-comparable to Raikage's charge, as is Minato _teleporting_ against Obito before he was touched.



Isn't A going to be "taking one step" too? If he's charging at Tsunade from a distance, he's not just going to swing blindly into her in the first place. Unlike the others he's tried that with, she can hurt him and regenerate. 

As I said before, he'd see her counter and adjust with his super reflexes so that he's no longer in her line of fire to begin with. It's the same thing Sasuke & Kakashi do with Chidori/Raikiri, and we don't see built momentum ruining that. 

Minato was just being used as an example of seeing an attack and using Jutsu to evade at the last minute. Even if you don't think A can do that with his foot speed, Shunshin (_Teleportation Jutsu_ ) is fair game, for reasons already stated. It isn't normal running, which is why he can instantly accelerate to v2 speeds going directly to his left to dodge Amataerasu.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Dec 5, 2015)

Why is this thread still continuing?

Raikage fucking destroys her with v2. Has any actual sane pro-Tsunade supporter addressed how she deals with that level of speed?


----------



## Rocky (Dec 5, 2015)

As soon as A swung at Minato, he was scanning back & forth between Kunai to see where Minato would pop up at. I'm not sure he would have done that if he weren't planning to try and run at Minato right then and there.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The time it takes for her to perceive and begin responding to his strike is time that A is _already using to move his fist towards her._



I know. I still think it's enough for her to do it though because Raikage's punch didn't actually land on Naruto before she began responding. If Tsunade started in response to Raikage's strike then once he actually hit Tsunade her own hit should already be right there.

It'd get him in that case imo. Like I pointed out earlier, Raikage had the reflexes to see Minato before he was hit, but he still didn't just Shunshin away again. I also don't think that he'd have hit as many walls as he did even if hitting them wouldn't hurt him, but oh well.



> I don't actually think this was in the viz.



_"If I can figure out which one he'll pop up at"_ still sounds like anticipating when he'd appear at a certain Kunai.



> Well he was glancing behind him, so if he was planning to take off in that direction at his top speed, he couldn't have continued the first motion. He'd be going the wrong way.



I meant he might've kept going and just curved around toward the intended Kunai. That's what Naruto seemingly did when he outran Ay- he looped around- as evidenced by how he's positioned facing the right of the panel (he'd be facing directly towards us if he'd just gone straight behind Raikage).



> Minato was just being used as an example of seeing an attack and using Jutsu to evade at the last minute.



My response to which was that the techniques in question aren't comparable so the example doesn't seem contradict anything I'm saying.

Minato uses actual teleportation, so he can just negate the momentum factor altogether. Raikage can't, because all using a Shunshin does is up the speed of the user. If it could negate that factor altogether we wouldn't see the skidding I've mentioned earlier, and again I don't think Ay would have hit as many walls as he did.


----------



## Marik Swift (Dec 5, 2015)

I'm bored (and this thread seems eternal - what the fuck are going on mods?), so I'm going to form a rebuttal for Tsunade against Ei's "lol blitz".

I still see Tsunade losing since there is nothing she has that can actually really hit Ei, but unlike others, I actually see her avoiding a Shunshin blitz, especially from 100 meters. She knows what Ei's capable of and from the very beginning of the fight she'll prep herself to Shunshin as well in order to open the distance between them. His Shunshin will activate first because he has better reflexes to act first, but shunshin has never been instant (otherwise Hiraishin would be pretty redundant).

In the time it takes Ei to cover 100 meters, she would have initiated her own Shunshin and open the distance between them since she'll be activating her own shunshin from the get go. From there, it is a simple matter of playing keep away with him. Alas, that's where the problem begins since, as I said, while she can avoid him, aside from her strength, she doesn't actually have anything to hurt him. And if she actually tries to land a punch on him then he would blitz her easily, since shunshin =/= taijutsu/combat speed.

God, haven't posted in the BD in forever.​


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 5, 2015)

I find it interesting how Tsunade only claimed that KCM Naruto's speed appeared to be a flash whereas V2 Ei's wasn't.

 Also, can't believe Kai is leaving this shit thread open.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I know. I still think it's enough for her to do it though because Raikage's punch didn't actually land on Naruto before she began responding. If Tsunade started in response to Raikage's strike then once he actually hit Tsunade her own hit should already be right there.



All she did was lean forward & shout. It takes longer to throw a punch or kick. What we know is that she'd be able to begin the process of kicking him before he hits her, but where exactly she is when he gets there is a judgement call. His movements are swifter then hers to begin with, so I don't see how she'd even be able to still swing into him after getting hit. She'll be flying the other way.



> Like I pointed out earlier, Raikage had the reflexes to see Minato before he was hit, but he still didn't just Shunshin away again. I also don't think that he'd have hit as many walls as he did even if hitting them wouldn't hurt him, but oh well.



A was surprised that Minato had evaded him. When The Yellow Flash is suddenly right above him in the midst of an attack, I'm not going to hold it against A for not evading him back, assuming he even tried (it was only a Kunai). 

I'm not sure what the wall thing has to do with anything. A's only ever hit a wall when his Shunshin punch unexpectedly fails to connect, which would result in a moment of surprise. He's likely thinking "how did that happen?" while continuing into the wall, because the wall doesn't hurt him. 

If A runs at Tsunade like that, she isn't going to suddenly dodge him at the last second. He'd either hit her and send her flying, or read any preemptive counter and adjust, like I've been saying for a while now. The Chidori users exemplify the concept. 



> If it could negate that factor altogether we wouldn't see the skidding I've mentioned earlier, and again I don't think Ay would have hit as many walls as he did.



Shunshin (flash-step) users can control their momentum. If you've got an instant acceleration superpower (anyone who uses Shunshin does), you probably have instant deceleration too. That'd be why Sasuke didn't crash into Naruto when he flickered right on top of him, or why Gai could pop up behind Team 7 without needing to skid to a stop, or suddenly appear in front of Kisame & Madara without crashing into them, as if he had just...teleported.

This isn't relevant though, because Tsunade cannot physically respond to A's Shunshin anyway. The question is whether or not he could activate Shunshin (or just use foot speed) to dodge an incoming kick right after throwing a standard punch at melee range, like the one he used on Naruto that Tsunade actually reacted to. That is a yes, going off of what Sasuke did to Gaara.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It means they would be able to if the opponent continued as they had been. The reason Ohnoki (and Haku) wouldn't be able to do it in a one-on-one is that Gai would obliterate him without even resorting to Yagai.



Yes, i meant that. I'm assuming Gai just decides he'll use Yagai instead of killing them with other means. Do you see it happening in the manga?



> I'm not sure what this has to do with characters being able to act during charge times.



Maybe i missed the point, but i was refering to Tsunade talking or moving while Ei was charging against Naruto. Sakura could've moved and take a tea with Kakashi and co. if she wanted, with all the time it passed with that talk. It's just something that only happens outside of the fight.



> That isn't what Naruto thinking Tsunade _"shouldn't fight my fights"_ implies.



Tsunade was going to fight Naruto's fight implying that . She basically said she would join Naruto and Bee as well, not only that she was going to take Naruto's fight to herself.



> I ought to remember this...



I didn't use that gif. Either way, if this forum were a place that made me mad or angry, i wouldn't even be here. It's dumb to get mad with fictional characters.

But don't ever dare to say something bad about Gai, _ever_ .


----------



## Ghost (Dec 6, 2015)

21 pages? Ei still stomps.

And jfyi Ei was not in his prime when he fought against Minato back in the day.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 6, 2015)

Ghost said:


> 1) 21 pages? Ei still stomps.
> 
> 2) And jfyi Ei was not in his prime when he fought against Minato back in the day.



1) How biased. You just ignored my entire post. I accept your concession. Tsunade wins.

2) How was he not in his prime? At least he stood a chance against Minato back then. Current Ei cant even beat a Sannin but really i dont even care.

Tsunade mid diff.
The Raikage doesn't compare to this calibre of shinobi.


----------



## Ghost (Dec 6, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> 2) How was he not in his prime?



Look at the difference in Shippuden Ei's body and the one during Minato days. There's a huge difference. On top of a stronger body Ei has more experience. Just like the Sannin Ei was in his prime during Shippuden.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 6, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Look at the difference in Shippuden Ei's body and the one during Minato days. There's a huge difference. On top of a stronger body Ei has more experience. Just like the Sannin Ei was in his prime during Shippuden.



Thats nice now actually counter my earlier post instead of ignoring it. In fact, i'll delete it and post it again.


ATastyMuffin said:


> Why is this thread still continuing?


Due to extreme ignorance (and possibly, i say again, possibly, some traditional Shōnen manga misogyny). Tsunade has up to five moves that can one-shot Raikage.
1) Chakra Scalpel to the neck (which Tsunade stated would be enough to kill herself)
2) Reverse Shosen no jutsu (which is powerful enough to put down Orochimaru)
3) Ranshinsho (this won't defeat Raikage but it will set him up for defeat)
4) Chakra Enhanced Strength (Orochimaru said, "One hit will kill you")
5) Zesshi Nensan (Raikage isnt dodging it in the first place, but if it is amplified like Onoki's Jinton it will reach Rokubi levels)
These are mostly CQC moves so while Raikage can dodge at a distance easily, its harder for him to get out of these, especially when Tsunade uses terrain manipulation and shunshin evasion to her advantage.

Madara said, "*Tsunade is slower than the Raikage*, but she's stronger than him". Being slower than one of the fastest people in the world is nothing to be ashamed of. Plus, there are several instances where slower people do not lose to faster adversaries. Kisame defeated Killer Bee, Madara didnt lose to Gai, Sasuke overcame Killer Bee, Suigetsu intercepted Bee and Raikage, Orochimaru won against Hiruzen, Rusty Tsunade initially outperformed Kabuto, Tsunade landed hits on Edo Madara, Deidara dodged Hebi Sasuke, Tsunade soloed the Sannin fight, Pein ultimately overcame and defeated Sage Mode Jiraiya, Sasori landed hits on Sakura (who is specialised to evading all his attacks), Deidara won against Gaara, Madara stomped Ei, Pain initially stomped Sage Mode Naruto, Kimimaro owned Lee. Its not always the faster person that wins the fight. If anything, it's hardly ever the faster person that wins the fight.

*I don't see why Tsunade should have any problem landing hits on Raikage. She landed hits on Edo Madara who reacted to V2 Raikage. See the scans below.*



LOOK HOW QUICKLY SHE CLOSED THAT DISTANCE




That is mainly due to the leaping she was doing when she attacked. Thats like jumping. Her jumping power can get her across great distances in timeframes shorter than Raikage (WHOSE SPEED WAS ENHANCED BY ŌNOKI'S KEIJŪGAN/CHŌKEIJŪGAN NO JUTSU) is able to do anything. This is the kind of height Tsunade can reach.

Gamabunta is the size of a Bijuu. Manda's mouth was twice of that 'height' above him. If two Bijuu's stood on one another's head they would reach the height the top of Manda's jaw was at. And Tsunade was another 'height' above that. Imagine 3 Bijuus stacked on top of each other. Thats how high up Tsunade was. What is stopping her from jumping up and summoning Katsuyu midair like how Jiraiya uses Food Cart Destroyer/Bring Down the house. Also, Tsunade summoning Katsuyu is equal to other boss summons. Jiraiya and Orochimaru have the chakra to use summoning at least 3 times in a fight. Tsunade could summon that same portion of Katsuyu 3 times (from the main body at Shikkotsu Forest, where the supply is virtually endless due to 100% Katsuyu being so massive). What would Raikage do then? Now lets get back to speed.
And by the way

*Spoiler*: __ 



TSUNADE IS SO UNDERRATED AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY



_She also outperformed V3 Susanoo Clones in terms of movement, manoeuvrability, dexterity and attack speed, while Raikage could not even dodge one. The smart / in character thing for him to have done would have been to dodge, but their attack speed was too fast for him. That same speed was no problem for Tsunade, yet again. See the scan below._


At the end of the day, people should f*cking stop talking about speed like its the sole deciding factor of the outcome of every single battle. That argument is getting old now. Raikage's speed and feats are old school talk now. Please get real it's 2015. Speed is way less important than Ninjutsu and Taijutsu, Genjutsu and Stamina.

She also arrived on the battlefield at the same time as Raikage, showing she can keep up. See the scan below.


Now for the most intelligent Battledome post of all time.


matty1991 said:


> *Deidara VS Sasori thread*
> I have already given you multiple ways he can win. You happen to choose to ignore everything anyone says that doesn't uphold with your narrow minded opinion
> 
> He can shoot down C3 or create a barrier similar to what Kankuro used with his puppet to shield him from falling rocks. He can try and snipe Deidara, he can also use 100 puppets instantly and chase after him. The only thing Deidara can do is fly as high as possible and C3 him. Guarantee if this is Itachi vs Deidara right now everyone would be saying "amaterasu snipe GG" with no proof he would hit him at all. Just goes to show that some characters are wanked while others are ignored





> TSUNADE IS SO UNDERRATED I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY


Well now I do understand



Rocky said:


> As soon as A swung at Minato, he was scanning back & forth between Kunai to see where Minato would pop up at. I'm not sure he would have done that if he weren't planning to try and run at Minato right then and there.



Stop using Prime Ei's feats.



> Raikage fucking destroys her with v2. Has any actual sane pro-Tsunade supporter addressed how she deals with that level of speed?



Since you asked nicely ...

A) She evades it. Medical ninjas are trained in evasion.
B) She tanks it. Byakugo has no problem with that.
C) She intercepts by attacking. Her physical strength is higher so we know who comes out of that exchange better.
D) She jumps up (like she did when she carried Bunta's sword) and summons Katsuyu in mid air (like when Naruto summoned Bunta and Orochimaru summoned Kyodaija) and drops it on Raikage's head.
E) She Shunshin's at the last second, gets behind him, and hits him with Ranshinsho]
F) She punches the ground for terrain manipulation, which slows Raikage down. Followed by Chakra Scalpel/Reverse Shosen.

*At the end of the day, people argue so hard for Raikage. But would he beat any other ninja on the High Kage tier? Meaning people like Prime Orochimaru, Sage Jiraiya, Alive Minato, Pein Rikudo, Prime Nagato, Prime Hiruzen, Tobirama Senju? Yeah. I don't f*cking think so.*
_
End of thread._

Until someone counters this post this is the end of the thread. If people ignore it i'll just keep deleting and reposting it i don't even care.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 6, 2015)

This thread should be closed.

Not only Ei can beat Tsunade without much of a problem due to his huge speed advantage even in V1 - the only Sannin who can beat him is Orochimaru.

And no - Tsunade has never, ever, landed any shot at Madara. He blocked that kick. The one she hit with her fist was a mokuton clone, not the real Madara.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> This thread should be closed.
> 
> Not only Ei can beat Tsunade without much of a problem due to his huge speed advantage even in V1 - the only Sannin who can beat him is Orochimaru.
> 
> And no - Tsunade has never, ever, landed any shot at Madara. He blocked that kick. The one she hit with her fist was a mokuton clone, not the real Madara.





StarWanderer said:


> This thread should be closed.
> 
> Not only Ei can beat Tsunade without much of a problem due to his huge speed advantage even in V1 - the only Sannin who can beat him is Orochimaru.
> 
> And no - Tsunade has never, ever, landed any shot at Madara. He blocked that kick. The one she hit with her fist was a mokuton clone, not the real Madara.



Why should it be closed. Thats just cowardly because you can't face a good argument.

Tsunade wins as no one has countered my post. You just keep saying Raikage wins with no explanation while i have given one.

Seriously some of you people are very stupid. And curse you for your misogyny. Thats the only reason why you fail to answer my post. Fools


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 6, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Why should it be closed. Thats just cowardly because you can't face a good argument.
> 
> *Tsunade wins as no one has countered my post.* You just keep saying Raikage wins with no explanation while i have given one.
> 
> Seriously some of you people are very stupid. And curse you for your misogyny. Thats the only reason why you fail to answer my post. Fools


Raikage is leagues faster than Tsunade, to the point where he chops her head off in the first blitz (circa Kisame vs. Raikage). She's not only going to get one-shotted but she's not even going to perceive it happening, especially if Raikage is starting out with V2.

There is no misogyny at play here, no chauvinistic agenda working in the background; Tsunade's just slow as shit and has much weaker durability by comparison. There are no scans you can provide that will change that, because that shit doesn't exist in the manga. 

Tsunade gets rag-dolled.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2015)

If I have time, I'm actually going to shit all over Izaya's argument.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 6, 2015)

Don't waste your time, it's probably someone's dupe


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Dec 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> If I have time, I'm actually going to shit all over Izaya's argument.



Just try it


Ryuzaki said:


> Don't waste your time, it's probably someone's dupe



Fuck you

Your opinions don't even matter at the end of the day because i know Tsunade is stronger than Raikage.

I just wanna ask y'all one last thing.
- Who had the best performance against Edo Madara out of all five Gokages?
- Do you think Raikage can defeat the Six Paths of Pain?
Give me honest answers please.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 6, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Fuck you


Fuck me? No thanks, I'll pass. I'm already spoken for, plus I'd rather do without the jailbait advances, last thing I need is Chris Hansen popping at my front door.


IzayaOrihara said:


> Your opinions don't even matter at the end of the day because i know Tsunade is stronger than Raikage.


Oh so that makes it so? If only I had known that you were the be all, end all power behind Naruto, I would have never questioned your integrity 


IzayaOrihara said:


> - Who had the best performance against Edo Madara out of all five Gokages?


Oonoki by a clear stretch had the best and most impressive feats while fighting Madara, coming in at a close second is Gaara.





IzayaOrihara said:


> - Do you think Raikage can defeat the Six Paths of Pain?


He takes out more bodies than Tsunade, if that's what you're asking.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Give me honest answers please.


If you're already going to assume I'm lying...then omg I can't.


IzayaOrihara said:


> I just wanna ask y'all one last thing.


That's 3 things...can you even count?


----------



## Mithos (Dec 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> This thread should be closed.
> 
> Not only Ei can beat Tsunade without much of a problem due to his huge speed advantage even in V1 - the only Sannin who can beat him is Orochimaru.
> 
> And no - Tsunade has never, ever, landed any shot at Madara. He blocked that kick. The one she hit with her fist was a mokuton clone, not the real Madara.



Actually, I think she did hit the real Madara. 

Look at the paper flakes coming off of his body when he's hit [1] [2] - this is consistent with what it looks like when Edo Tensei are damaged. 

Now let's compare that to when Juubito blitzed Tobirama and Hashirama's Mokuton clone [3] : Hashirama's Mokuton clone clearly turns into wood immediatley upon destruction - something that Madara's body didn't do when hit by Tsunade - while the destruction of Tobirama's Edo Tensei body looks almost exactly the same as Madara's.

I think Madara had a wood clone laying in wait and quickly switched it out with his real damaged body to avoid being sealed.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 6, 2015)

> Why should it be closed. Thats just cowardly because you can't face a good argument.
> 
> Tsunade wins as no one has countered my post. You just keep saying Raikage wins with no explanation while i have given one.
> 
> Seriously some of you people are very stupid. And curse you for your misogyny. Thats the only reason why you fail to answer my post. Fools



I've just read that the distance is 100 meters. Well, it's obvious for what purpose this thread has been done.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 6, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Actually, I think she did hit the real Madara.
> 
> Look at the paper flakes coming off of his body when he's hit [1] [2] - this is consistent with what it looks like when Edo Tensei are damaged.
> 
> ...



So he switched bodies with his clone? Wat? Realy? Some sort of space-time ninjutsu or something? 

And why his body restored so fast after such a punch which destroyed half of his body?


----------



## Idiopodivny (Dec 6, 2015)

I think Tsunade wins. Don't underestimate the queen haha


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Dec 6, 2015)

Tsunade doesn't even come close to winning, and it's hilarious how twisted the mental gymnastics of her supporters are.

'oh she'll react to it last-minute and hit Raikage when she gets hit'

the fuck?


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Tsunade doesn't even come close to winning, and it's hilarious how twisted the mental gymnastics of her supporters are.
> 
> 'oh she'll react to it last-minute and hit Raikage when she gets hit'
> 
> the fuck?



The distance is 100 meters. Ei is for sure capable of speedblitzing her, but not from such a distance. She has a chance of summoning Katsuyu, or turning on her Byakugou seal.


----------



## Hachibi (Dec 8, 2015)

22 pages.

*22*

What is this madness?

Also lol at Izaya not realising Madara means physically.

Reactions: Like 1


----------

