# Doflamingo vs Vista



## Slenderman (Jul 27, 2013)

Location: Marineford

Intel: manga

Distance: 30 metres

Mindset: bloodlusted


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## Canute87 (Jul 27, 2013)

Oh how will Flamingo stand a chance.  Vista fought Mihawk for a little while


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## Goomoonryong (Jul 27, 2013)

Doflamingo High diff


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 27, 2013)

Vista with mid difficulty


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## Darkberry (Jul 27, 2013)

What the F*.........................
From Marco level dropped to Jozu level dropped to Vista level. What next dropped to Law level 
I feel sad for Dofla


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 27, 2013)

He'll be Sanji level after Luffy smacks him


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## tanman (Jul 27, 2013)

Doflamingo, medium difficulty (since on this forum we seem to consider Zoro v. Kaku and Sanji v. Jyabura to be medium difficulty, in another context I might label it is high difficulty). I'm assuming from his lack of feats and the nature of his one feat that Vista is on Law/Luffy's general level. I would put Doflamingo just above Jozu. I'm sticking to my guns on that since I firmly believe that haxx DFs can't overcome a serious and combat superior opponent. 

I would say Doflamingo and Jozu are both able to medium/high diff Vista. I believe I'm giving Vista a reasonable amount of the benefit of doubt considering he's done next to nothing. It's certainly possible that Vista will far surpass my expectations, but at this point there's nothing to really back that up.


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## trance (Jul 27, 2013)

Doflamingo high difficulty.


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## Rob (Jul 28, 2013)

Canute87 said:


> Oh how will Flamingo stand a chance.  Vista fought Mihawk for a little while



Because Mihawk also clashed with Crocodile, who clashed with Doflamingo 

Doflamingo=Vista=Mihawk=Crocodile


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## Halcyon (Jul 28, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Because Mihawk also clashed with Crocodile, who clashed with Doflamingo
> 
> Doflamingo=Vista=Mihawk=Crocodile


 ?



*Spoiler*: __


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## Lawliet (Jul 28, 2013)

Doflamingo should take this with no doubt.


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## B Rabbit (Jul 28, 2013)

Going with Flamingo.


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## Tiger (Jul 28, 2013)

I am also of those who consider Vista to be slightly below Jozu, but of the two - Vista has a better chance of beating Doffy.

Still though, when I start my post with that - it's obvious who I think has the better chance of winning. When we're sitting around coming up with reasons why Vista _could_ beat Doffy, then the answer is pretty clear that Doffy has the advantage.

Until further notice, I don't see Vista defeating Doffy.

Crocodile clashed with Mihawk for a few panels too, no one thinks he's on that same level. When your greatest feat is *not being dead*, you don't get the benefit of the doubt.


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## RF (Jul 28, 2013)

This can go either way.

Vista received huge hype from Mihawk, anyone who tries to deny it is just flat out stupid.


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## blueframe01 (Jul 28, 2013)

it should be really close IMO. however i just think that Dofla would barely edge it.


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## Lord Melkor (Jul 28, 2013)

It could go either way, but I am giving benefit of the doubt to Doflamingo, but nothing less than high difficulty.


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## Shanks (Jul 28, 2013)

Not many feats from Vista or DD, but since this if DD's arch and he will go down, Vista should be stronger.

Going by feats, Vista took on Mihawk without fear, while DD shit his himself at the voice of Kaido and a causal attack from an admiral.

So Vista wins no matter how you look at it.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jul 28, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> Going by feats, Vista took on Mihawk without fear, while DD shit his himself at the voice of Kaido and a causal attack from an admiral.
> 
> So Vista wins no matter how you look at it.





Just because Doflamingo isn't retarded enough to throw away his life for a stupid cause doesn't mean he's weaker. Nor is the fact he's sensible enough to know who's stronger than him. That's a horrible way of looking at things.

OT, I'm confident Doflamingo will take this. It's pretty much a toss up with him vs Marco and Jozu, so Vista who's a rung below on the ladder shouldn't pose that many problems. Needs to use his haxx to paralyse Vista and ideally get him to stab himself or something along those lines.


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## Akitō (Jul 28, 2013)

tanman said:


> I'm sticking to my guns on that since I firmly believe that haxx DFs can't overcome a serious and combat superior opponent.



This. 

I've no idea why so many people just outright assume that Doflamingo's ability is a cheap one-shot type of thing because he restrained Jozu. 'It bypasses physical strength because his fingers aren't stronger than Jozu' is an awful perspective to take as it doesn't make a lick of sense. Why are we ignoring things like Haki? Why are we assuming that no matter how strong you are, you can't escape once you're restrained (that's what 'bypassing physical strength' entails, after all)? Why are we assuming that it's solely Doflamingo's ability and not where he stands level-wise? 

I mean, the way some people talk about his Devil Fruit, you'd think that if pre-skip Buggy had it, he'd have been able to casually restrain Jozu too. Everyone is so caught up with this 'hax' and 'bypass' nonsense that they're forgetting what usually makes an ability strong at the top-tier level: the user and their Haki level relative to the target's Haki level.


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## Coruscation (Jul 28, 2013)

> Why are we assuming that it's solely Doflamingo's ability and not where he stands level-wise?



Why are you assuming that it isn't BOTH? Since when were DF abilities not about both the user's power and the ability's nature? We are now straight out of an arc where Luffy, Haki and all, was clear-cut owned by someone far weaker than himself because of a very hax DF. The person using it doesn't seem to be able to use Haki at all. Thus proving that you're never safe from one. Yet when it comes to Jozu, a simple brawler much like Luffy, and his opponents Aokiji and Doflamingo, of which at the very least the former is firmly proven to possess a one-shot, hax DF, a lot of people completely lose that perspective and immediately jump to denouncing Jozu instead. It's aggravatingly illogical.

The complete refusal of people sharing your perspective to acknowledge the hax factor and the blatant double standards is partly what causes the backlash you dislike. It always has to be one or the other.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 28, 2013)

Akitō said:


> This.
> 
> I've no idea why so many people just outright assume that Doflamingo's ability is a cheap one-shot type of thing because he restrained Jozu. 'It bypasses physical strength because his fingers aren't stronger than Jozu' is an awful perspective to take as it doesn't make a lick of sense. Why are we ignoring things like Haki? Why are we assuming that no matter how strong you are, you can't escape once you're restrained (that's what 'bypassing physical strength' entails, after all)? Why are we assuming that it's solely Doflamingo's ability and not where he stands level-wise?
> 
> I mean, the way some people talk about his Devil Fruit, you'd think that if pre-skip Buggy had it, he'd have been able to casually restrain Jozu too. Everyone is so caught up with this 'hax' and 'bypass' nonsense that they're forgetting what usually makes an ability strong at the top-tier level: the user and their Haki level relative to the target's Haki level.



Cause Jozu is the best in the world of course. 

His physical strength and haki are so strong he is able to make Aokiji bleed internally.


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## Ghost (Jul 28, 2013)

Going with Dofla extreme diff.


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## ShadowReaper (Jul 28, 2013)

Doflamingo mid-high difficulty. 
Vista wouldn't stand much chance, if Mihawk back then was really serious about the fight and actually bothered using his Haki and more powerful sword moves on him.


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## Shinthia (Jul 28, 2013)

Dofla cuts Vista in half.


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## tanman (Jul 28, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Why are you assuming that it isn't BOTH? Since when were DF abilities not about both the user's power and the ability's nature? We are now straight out of an arc where Luffy, Haki and all, was clear-cut owned by someone far weaker than himself because of a very hax DF. The person using it doesn't seem to be able to use Haki at all. Thus proving that you're never safe from one. Yet when it comes to Jozu, a simple brawler much like Luffy, and his opponents Aokiji and Doflamingo, of which at the very least the former is firmly proven to possess a one-shot, hax DF, a lot of people completely lose that perspective and immediately jump to denouncing Jozu instead. It's aggravatingly illogical.
> 
> The complete refusal of people sharing your perspective to acknowledge the hax factor and the blatant double standards is partly what causes the backlash you dislike. It always has to be one or the other.



Poison and strings are not the same thing at all. Invisible poisonous gas is a tool that anyone can take advantage of. It's not relegated by Haki, but by resistance. Not to mention, Luffy noted it and was willfully breathing it in because he believed himself to have an immunity. Under the same conditions, Ceaser's poison could take out Whitebeard. Let's not lower ourselves to simply shrugging our shoulders and saying that everything else works like that. That's an appeal to ignorance. 

Particular devil fruits have special abilities and effects. These effects are not prevented by Haki as Robin states . By that logic, magma will still burn and ice will still freeze you. However, she also says that it provides the ability to seize immaterial substances. So while a magma punch might burn you, you can still punch it back as if it were not a liquid. The same applies to Aokiji's icy mist. We've already seen Oda actually draw the invisible strings that Doflamingo utilizes . Naturally, Haki treats these strings like a physical substance, making physical power a reasonable means of resistance. Now, in the case of Doflamingo's attacks, that would only be possible had both superior Haki and superior physical strength. 

Instead, we had Doflamingo running rampant without Jozu seeming to give even an inkling of effective resistance. If it could so unilaterally affect people him, then it ceases to follow the above in-verse logic and allows him to become as powerful as the person he catches unawares. Certainly, you don't think this works like poison, right? You don't think that if Whitebeard were inattentive, that Doflamingo would have been riding Whitebeard around like a horsey?


There are haxx abilities in this verse. The ability to poison people. The ability to electrocute people. The ability to slow people down. The ability to freeze people. All of these can be overcome in a variety of ways. However, I refuse to believe the (apparently) insurmountable ability to control people is one of them. Now I'm really not arguing that Doflamingo is stronger than Jozu. What I am arguing is that he doubtlessly surpasses him in some capacity for him to take such full control.


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## Coruscation (Jul 28, 2013)

> Poison and strings are not the same thing at all.



Missing the point entirely. 



> Under the same conditions, Ceaser's poison could take out Whitebeard.



EXACTLY. That's the point being made. A freaking low high tier who is barely more than fodder even to Luffy has a method of attack, thanks to a hax Devil Fruit, that could take out the strongest man in the world if he was well and truly caught off-guard by it. You can NEVER say that a Devil Fruit don't matter. They are a huge part of characters' abilities and unique constitutions in this series. It is much more likely that they do than don't play a significant role in basically any given scene they're in.



> Let's not lower ourselves to simply shrugging our shoulders and saying that everything else works like that. That's an appeal to ignorance.



That's not what's happening. You're missing the point by a country mile. Caesar was brought up to counter the endlessly aggravating implied argument "if Jozu wasn't weaker than Doflamingo he wouldn't have been stopped". You can never make these absolute statements when it comes to DFs. Did you really miss the exclamation that what happened was likely a result of both Doflamingo's own power and his Devil Fruit's nature, in all caps at the start of the post you quoted and wrote a four paragraph reply to? 

I don't know what your remaining paragraphs are even about. Do you think you needed to write a wikipedia entry to explain to me that not all Devil Fruits are the same in functionality? Do you think I was saying that Doflamingo's DF powers are automatically absolute in letting him take control of opponents? None of what you wrote remotely leads to your conclusion which is the same old tired complete refusal to admit that what Doflamingo did likely had something to do with his Devil Fruit powers and not just some general superiority over Jozu. Why are hax magic strings different from hax magic lowering of temperatures? Jozu was caught off-guard by a very powerful opponent using a powerful Devil Fruit very skillfully. That's all that happened and it doesn't make him weaker than that opponent.

You do seem to be operating under the astoundingly common false assumption that Doflamingo was making a playtoy out of Jozu. This is false. Doflamingo was never shown controlling Jozu. He did not do with Jozu what he did with Sarquiss or Atmos. All he was shown to do was hold him in place. 



> Now I'm really not arguing that Doflamingo is stronger than Jozu. What I am arguing is that he doubtlessly surpasses him in some capacity for him to take such full control.



If that's not what you're arguing then it seems you're a bit out of the loop on what this is actually about. If Doflamingo stopping Jozu was _not_ because he caught him off-guard with a hax DF power but simply because of general superiority then how is there any option left but for him to be stronger than Jozu?



> However, I refuse to believe the (apparently) insurmountable ability to control people is one of them.



Why in the world would you do that when it makes no sense whatsoever? Doflamingo's DF is not a dangerous DF power that can be defended against with proper countermeasures, but is extremely dangerous to be caught off-guard by? What? How can it not be _exactly_ that?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 28, 2013)

^Corus to put it simply he is saying DD power is not a one shot skill that anyone can use, he is taking both things into account.

Explanation.

Give buggy say magellans fruit and jozu dies. Give buggy doflamingos fruits, and jozu brakes out of his control and smashes his face in.

Or in other-words if DD was a crap ton weaker then Jozu he would of broken out of Doflamingos restraints fairly quickly.

What a lot of people around here do is say lolhax so that scene does not mean anything. Well its not, that was a massive feat for DD unless your of the opnion that if you replace Jozu with Whitebeard that whitebeard would not be able to break out of Doflamigos control. Which although not impossible it's higher unlikely and he does not believe that to be the case. 

To put it as simply as I can, he is saying that Doflamingos personal skill with his devil fruit and his haki played a part in restraining jozu. It was not the hax doing all the work, otherwise you could give me DD fruit and I could do the same thing. At least that's what I got out of the post


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## tanman (Jul 28, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> -snip-




I'm going to respond to the entire thing en masse since I accidentally deleted my original response.

The entire reason I responded to your post was that you were equating what happened to Luffy with what happened to Jozu. I find that to be a very misleading and false equivalency.  No one was saying that haxx DFs don't matter. If you read the rest of my post, I do specifically discuss haxx in magma, ice, lightning, and other fruits.

The person you were responding to made the specific clarification that both haxx DFs and physical abilities make up a characters power when he said "solely." The issue for me is that Doflamingo's feat is oft dismissed because it's "solely" a DF feat. When you say "Thus proving you're never safe from one," you affirm this myth. 


*That's where my original point ends. This is where my view of how of you interpreted my response begins:*

What you're arguing against is, according to you, an implied statement constructed by false absolutes. And I agree that such absolutes are false, and I also believe that the opposite is the more common falsehood being spread about this forum. Particularly as a result of Doflamingo's most recent appearance and where readers see him going in the future.

To say that I some how concluded with a "same old tired complete refusal to admit that what Doflamingo did likely had something to do with his Devil Fruit powers and not just some general superiority over Jozu" is downright incorrect. That's precisely what I disagreed with. You read it yourself. I say the words "I'm really not arguing that Doflamingo is stronger than Jozu," which directly denies this as a sole reason for a "general superiority" as you put it. I follow that with the statement that he must surpass Jozu in _some_ capacity. Obviously, the devil fruit has everything to do with it. But that simply can't be the only the barrier to entry for a character to be so completely controlled. 

Haxx strings and haxx ice are not different. I never said they were. Obviously, Aokiji, who defended against Whitebeard, has better armaments chops than someone like Jozu. He was by no means "caught off guard" by Aokiji. Unless you're comparing it to Aokiji freezing Whitebeard. In which case, armaments and physical strength are the explanations for his escape in the first place, so it does nothing to concur the "haxxness" of Aokiji.

While the actual application of the devil fruit ability doesn't prove superiority by itself, it certainly supports it. I don't see how that can be denied. Nothing about the incident's portrayal even begins to imply otherwise. We must rely on what's supported, rather than clinging to slim doubts. Essentially, my point is that there is an argument for Doflamingo's superiority, but there isn't an argument for Jozu's superiority. Doubt is all there is. The effectiveness of his devil fruit, despite Jozu's Haki [and the ability to make Doflamingo's strings tangible) and physical power, _is_ an argument. Doflamingo's ability gave him the ability to do that, but his superiority in one of those facets [note: not overall superiority] must have given him the capacity to maintain it.

As far as the whole "playtoy" debacle, I was using hyperbole. So I concede that. I don't think we fundamentally disagree on the canon. However, I do believe our perception of what falsehoods are being spread and how is the subject of debate. 

Sorry for another lengthy response.


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## admiral kenpachi (Jul 28, 2013)

Vista negative diff


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## Coruscation (Jul 28, 2013)

> To put it as simply as I can, he is saying that Doflamingos personal skill with his devil fruit and his haki played a part in restraining jozu



Which was what the first sentence of my first post also stated, in all caps. I'm quite tired of people reading and responding to what they want to see and not what is actually there to be seen.



> you were equating what happened to Luffy with what happened to Jozu.



No, I wasn't. That is simply your completely mistaken reading of it, apparently. What happened to Luffy is brought up as evidence that Haki and being high up on the power ladder does not mean that you can't get put in a moderately to extremely bad position if you get struck by dangerous Devil Fruit abilities. Because people love to deny this when it comes to Jozu, regarding both his incident with Doflamingo and loss to Aokiji.



> No one was saying that haxx DFs don't matter



But they deny that the nature/power of Doflamingo's DF played any part in what happened to Jozu. It's always a certain few people who, whenever anyone points out that being caught off guard by strong people with dangerous DFs can put near enough anyone in a compromising position, then starts flatly denying that Doflamingo's Devil Fruit and the nature of it - a certain ability to inflict heavy damage or cause other troublesome predicaments even against a very strong, often stronger enemy - likely played a significant part in that, as Devil Fruits nearly always do.

It's a double standard. That's the problem. Devil Fruits almost always matter. We have no reason to assume it _didn't_ matter with Jozu/Doflamingo.



> The issue for me is that Doflamingo's feat is oft dismissed because it's "solely" a DF feat. When you say "Thus proving you're never safe from one," you affirm this myth.



I do no such thing. I haven't dismissed Doflamingo's feat at all. What I do is deny that him putting Jozu in a difficult position by virtue of an off-guard attack with a dangerous Devil Fruit suggests Doflamingo > Jozu. Because this is an extremely common event throughout the series and it doesn't really indicate superiority of strength.



> While the actual application of the devil fruit ability doesn't prove superiority by itself, it certainly supports it. *I don't see how that can be denied*. Nothing about the incident's portrayal even begins to imply otherwise. We must rely on what's supported, rather than clinging to slim doubts. Essentially, my point is that *there is an argument for Doflamingo's superiority, but there isn't an argument for Jozu's superiority*.



It can be denied because the incident, contrary to what a lot of people _love_ to pretend, is not an isolated one. It does not exist in a vacuum. It is not the only showing off Doflamingo and Jozu's respective general powers available to us, nor the only one in a series full of similar incidents involving dangerous Devil Fruit abilities. You can't view it all on its own and make claims based off of that. 

The bolded is nonsense. Jozu fought Admiral Aokiji head-on, 1v1, in close combat, for an extended period of time and suffered no injuries. This is a better feat and better portrayal than what Doflamingo has. Doflamingo has to our knowledge never extensively fought someone that powerful and lethal one on one. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt on overall power because of an incident involving a most certainly dangerous and hax Devil Fruit ability that we still do not even know the specifics of.



> Haxx strings and haxx ice are not different. I never said they were.



Then your post was most awkwardly worded, because you named a whole bunch of clearly hax powers and then followed with "*I refuse to believe the (apparently) insurmountable ability to control people is one of them*". How exactly did you expect me to read that if not as a disagreement that Doflamingo's puppet power is another example of a hax and dangerous ability?



> As far as the whole "playtoy" debacle, I was using hyperbole



And if you're truly so concerned about "falsehoods being spread" about as facts as you claim, I'm surprised you would, because the blatantly biased exaggeration of what Doflamingo actually did to Jozu is probably the very most common one in relation to this topic. But I suppose that matters less when it is an exaggerated falsehood that seems to help your cause.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 28, 2013)

^i know that's what you said, I was just saying thats what I think tan was trying to say. So it is really just a misunderstanding for the most part reading both your posts,  you guys are saying the same thing. For the most part anyway lol.

That DD restraining jozu was both the power of his devil fruit and DD overall level.


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## Akitō (Jul 28, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Why are you assuming that it isn't BOTH?



I'm not. I'm addressing those who seem to believe that Doflamingo's ability is so 'hax' that it's able to completely bypass physical strength/Haki and thus restrain anyone regardless of the levels of the user and the target. _That_ is the argument I see so often played in an attempt to dispatch the feat. I can readily acknowledge that Doflamingo's ability is an extremely dangerous one to an off-guard enemy. I cannot readily acknowledge that Doflamingo's ability is so dangerous that it can entirely restrain people who are much stronger than Doflamingo himself. 

I do firmly believe it's a bit of both. This 'completely bypasses physical strength' nonsense has been tossed around this section for far too long, and it's made Doflamingo out to be a relatively weak fighter who's entirely reliant on an ability that works on a league above his own level.


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## Sentomaru (Jul 28, 2013)

OP, please. 

- Pirate King level mustache
- Urouge level grin
- Clashed with an absent-minded Mihawk for 3 panels (= instant top-tier)





Seriously, though...



Honestly, I find Vista to be extremely overrated on this section. He has done jack shit and I really doubt we're supposed to view him as a *top*-tier. All he did during the war was stalling an absent-minded Mihawk for a short amount of time and being a side-kick for Marco against Akainu. What's *top*-tier worthy about this?  
Are people really this delusional that they think only a top-tier can earn Mihawk's respect and fight him for a couple panels? Look at Crocodile... I'm pretty damn sure a high-end high-tier could do exactly the same and you couldn't tell a difference. How are we supposed to tell the difference between a high high-tier and a low top-tier anyways when all we have is a short skirmish in which neither went all-out? All we have is his portrayal and that's clearly below Marco and Jozu's. 

Doflamingo (the guy with actual feats) beats him high diff until proven otherwise.


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## tanman (Jul 28, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> No, I wasn't. That is simply your completely mistaken reading of it, apparently. What happened to Luffy is brought up as evidence that Haki and being high up on the power ladder does not mean that you can't get put in a moderately to extremely bad position if you get struck by dangerous Devil Fruit abilities. *Because people love to deny this when it comes to Jozu, regarding both his incident with Doflamingo and loss to Aokiji.*
> 
> But they deny that the nature/power of Doflamingo's DF played any part in what happened to Jozu. It's always a certain few people who, whenever anyone points out that being caught off guard by strong people with dangerous DFs can put near enough anyone in a compromising position, then starts flatly denying that Doflamingo's Devil Fruit and the nature of it - a certain ability to inflict heavy damage or cause other troublesome predicaments even against a very strong, often stronger enemy - likely played a significant part in that, as Devil Fruits nearly always do.
> 
> It's a double standard. That's the problem. Devil Fruits almost always matter. We have no reason to assume it _didn't_ matter with Jozu/Doflamingo.



Agreed with everything but the bold.
It's semantics. But when reviewing your perspective, it's odd to label one an "incident" and one a "loss." Objectively, Jozu was both times caught off guard by a haxx DF. Either they're both losses or they're both "incidents." I know the difference, of course, is that you would never dispute Aokiji's superiority over Jozu. But you are arguing that they're essentially the same thing. 

Yes. I understand how horribly petty this is.



Coruscation said:


> I do no such thing. I haven't dismissed Doflamingo's feat at all. What I do is deny that him putting Jozu in a difficult position by virtue of an off-guard attack with a dangerous Devil Fruit suggests Doflamingo > Jozu. Because this is an extremely common event throughout the series and it doesn't really indicate superiority of strength.



Again, it's semantics. I agree with every bit of this except "suggests." Prove would be more appropriate. It certainly suggests.





Coruscation said:


> It can be denied because the incident, contrary to what a lot of people _love_ to pretend, is not an isolated one. It does not exist in a vacuum. It is not the only showing off Doflamingo and Jozu's respective general powers available to us, nor the only one in a series full of similar incidents involving dangerous Devil Fruit abilities. You can't view it all on its own and make claims based off of that.
> 
> The bolded is nonsense. Jozu fought Admiral Aokiji head-on, 1v1, in close combat, for an extended period of time and suffered no injuries. This is a better feat and better portrayal than what Doflamingo has. Doflamingo has to our knowledge never extensively fought someone that powerful and lethal one on one. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt on overall power because of an incident involving a most certainly dangerous and hax Devil Fruit ability that we still do not even know the specifics of.



Not nonsense. Direct combat between two characters has always been the most meaningful method of comparison. Jozu could have smacked Whitebeard's head off for all intensive purposes, and it wouldn't have as much bearing on a fight between Doflamingo and Jozu if we had a feat where Doflamingo overcame Jozu. That's just the error in A>B>C logic. (I also don't know how loosing an arm counts as no injuries.) 

The only people above Jozu in strength who were present on the opponent's side were Whitebeard and Marco. Instead of looking at the instance where Doflamingo actually clashed with Jozu, should we instead look at the fact that he didn't clash with Marco and Whitebeard? Again, their actual fight takes precedence over what either character did individually. Don't mistake this for me saying that these feats should be ignored.





Coruscation said:


> Then your post was most awkwardly worded, because you named a whole bunch of clearly hax powers and then followed with "*I refuse to believe the (apparently) insurmountable ability to control people is one of them*". How exactly did you expect me to read that if not as a disagreement that Doflamingo's puppet power is another example of a hax and dangerous ability?



The key word was "insurmountable." Since that's the word that makes the difference from the previous DFs I was listing.That's the only point I was making. 



Coruscation said:


> And if you're truly so concerned about "falsehoods being spread" about as facts as you claim, I'm surprised you would, because the blatantly biased exaggeration of what Doflamingo actually did to Jozu is probably the very most common one in relation to this topic. But I suppose that matters less when it is an exaggerated falsehood that seems to help your cause.



Hey, I conceded the point. 
There really is no need to get accusatory.


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## Coruscation (Jul 28, 2013)

> I'm not.



But you agreed with a statement claiming that a hax DF *can not* overcome a superior opponent? That sure sounds an awful lot like assuming it's all Doflamingo's general strength and not partly the nature of the Devil Fruit. This was clearly an instance where Doflamingo got an advantage over Jozu, how substantial we do not know. If you believe that even with a hax DF it would be impossible for him to do that if Jozu was superior to him, there's only one conclusion left.



> But when reviewing your perspective, it's odd to label one an "incident" and one a "loss." Objectively, Jozu was both times caught off guard by a haxx DF. Either they're both losses or they're both "incidents."



No, no, no. This is exactly what's wrong with how biased people are in their perceptions of what actually HAPPENED in that scene. Jozu did not lose. He did. not. lose to Doflamingo. He didn't get a single scratch on him and he was not made a puppet. He was prevented from moving. That was it. That was all we saw no matter how much you may wish that you could read into it. Against Aokiji he was knocked out and lost an arm. The difference between the two is enormous.



> I know the difference, of course, is that you would never dispute Aokiji's superiority over Jozu.



The difference is that Aokiji 1) has plenty of other things going for him that suggest he is generally stronger than Jozu and 2) actually _harmed and defeated Jozu when he caught him off-guard_.



> Again, it's semantics. I agree with every bit of this except "suggests." Prove would be more appropriate. It certainly suggests.



The semantics are rather important. I do not agree that it even suggests it. We can not make such an inference when we know so little about the specifics of the ability involved and there are other factors that strongly call into doubt the notion that Doflamingo did what he did because he's simply clear-cut superior.



> Direct combat between two characters has always been the most meaningful method of comparison.



Yes, which is why Jozu and Aokiji's *actual direct fight* is the most meaningful point of comparison you can use here. Jozu and Doflamingo did not have a proper fight; Doflamingo snared Jozu in strings unexpectedly and did nothing more. Aokiji and Doflamingo did not have a proper fight; Aokiji gave him a warning shot and Doflamingo buggered off after narrowly escaping it. But Jozu and the Admiral actually did fight, directly, for an extended period of time, and unlike Doflamingo's still mysterious power we have a relatively good grasp on both of their abilities. Hence why that feat is valued highly. It isn't shrouded in uncertainty and it was actually a direct fight.



> The only people above Jozu in strength who were present on the opponent's side were Whitebeard and Marco. Instead of looking at the instance where Doflamingo actually clashed with Jozu, should we instead look at the fact that he didn't clash with Marco and Whitebeard?



I have no idea what argument you're even attempting to make here =/



> The key word was "insurmountable." Since that's the word that makes the difference from the previous DFs I was listing.



What is an insurmountable ability? Sounds like awkward dancing around the point to me. Once Caesar actually has you firmly in the grip of his airless world that's quite "insurmountable" too for someone as much stronger than him as Luffy was, but you have to stop him before it gets to that point. That's the way a hax DF often works. Don't get hit or it becomes insurmountable. How is Doflamingo's ability different from any of the others you brought and claimed that it was dissimilar to in this regard? None of them are actually impossible to fight, assuming proper understanding and preparation. But if you're taken off-guard by one, things can turn sour even if you'd normally be capable of dealing with it. Did I just describe Doflamingo, Caesar or Aokiji's power?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 28, 2013)

^in terms of Doflamingos restraining ability it is not impossible to get out of presumably at least I mean I fully expect luffy or law to get out of it as some point. Which is different from Aokiji or Ceasers. Cause save for a few people with special devil fruit abilitys they can kill you easily if they get a free hit in.

Another way of putting it is that all three are hax(due), but Aokiji(ice time/age) and Ceaser(poison gas) are guaranteed kills regardless of your power level, if Doflamingo gets you in his strings your are not his puppet no matter how strong you are. Whitebeard can have all the muscles he wants Ceasers poison gas will still kill him, Aokijis ice time will still freeze his brain, but wb can presumably get out of doflamingos control.

Although it could easily be the case once he gets you in his strings there is nothing you can do, I'm just not going to assume that's the case just yet.


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## Slenderman (Jul 28, 2013)

Wow the poll is pretty one sided.


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## tanman (Jul 28, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> No, no, no. This is exactly what's wrong with how biased people are in their perceptions of what actually HAPPENED in that scene. Jozu did not lose. He did. not. lose to Doflamingo. He didn't get a single scratch on him and he was not made a puppet. He was prevented from moving. That was it. That was all we saw no matter how much you may wish that you could read into it. Against Aokiji he was knocked out and lost an arm. The difference between the two is enormous.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that Aokiji 1) has plenty of other things going for him that suggest he is generally stronger than Jozu and 2) actually _harmed and defeated Jozu when he caught him off-guard_.



Can you please drop the whole bias thing. I have no particular inclination towards either of these characters. In fact, I thought Jozu was stronger before I went back and reviewed these chapters. I do not "wish" anything upon either of these characters. However, we all have some level of bias, so know that you are not superhuman in this respect. Unless, I've been arguing with a bot this whole time.

I'm just trying to get your opinions straight. As obvious as you may think these opinions are, they are not. The point I was making was that you arbitrarily put a line in the sand for Doflamingo. Gaining control over a fighter is a feat that I believe you are massively underestimating. 






Coruscation said:


> Yes, which is why Jozu and Aokiji's *actual direct fight* is the most meaningful point of comparison you can use here. Jozu and Doflamingo did not have a proper fight; Doflamingo snared Jozu in strings unexpectedly and did nothing more. Aokiji and Doflamingo did not have a proper fight; Aokiji gave him a warning shot and Doflamingo buggered off after narrowly escaping it. But Jozu and the Admiral actually did fight, directly, for an extended period of time, and unlike Doflamingo's still mysterious power we have a relatively good grasp on both of their abilities. Hence why that feat is valued highly. It isn't shrouded in uncertainty and it was actually a direct fight.
> 
> I have no idea what argument you're even attempting to make here =/



Narrowly escaped? >_>
Now that's suggestive language that isn't supported by anything in the manga.


I'm talking about a direct interaction. Again, Doflamingo *seized* him. He obtained control of him. I don't understand how Jozu's feats against whoever are more relevant than that. Would you not find Luffy's interaction with Monet more important than his interaction with Ceaser in determining whether Luffy could beat her? Were we not given a canonical comparison of the characters? Regardless of who you think is stronger, Monet came out on top of her interaction and so did Doflamingo. That interaction _suggested_ her superiority. However, it did not prove it. I think that's an excellent example since it proves that you _can_ be correct. But your position simply can't be the default.




Coruscation said:


> What is an insurmountable ability? Sounds like awkward dancing around the point to me. Once Caesar actually has you firmly in the grip of his airless world that's quite "insurmountable" too for someone as much stronger than him as Luffy was, but you have to stop him before it gets to that point. That's the way a hax DF often works. Don't get hit or it becomes insurmountable. How is Doflamingo's ability different from any of the others you brought and claimed that it was dissimilar to in this regard? None of them are actually impossible to fight, assuming proper understanding and preparation. But if you're taken off-guard by one, things can turn sour even if you'd normally be capable of dealing with it. Did I just describe Doflamingo, Caesar or Aokiji's power?



Luffy took in his poison. He fought Ceaser as if he was immune to it. Ceaser's devil fruit can be defeated. It is surmountable. We saw this. However, you're suggesting that Doflamingo taking control of a superior opponent is as simple as him catching them off guard. That's an entirely different ballpark of ease.


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## Akitō (Jul 28, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> But you agreed with a statement claiming that a hax DF *can not* overcome a superior opponent? That sure sounds an awful lot like assuming it's all Doflamingo's general strength and not partly the nature of the Devil Fruit. This was clearly an instance where Doflamingo got an advantage over Jozu, how substantial we do not know. If you believe that even with a hax DF it would be impossible for him to do that if Jozu was superior to him, there's only one conclusion left.



I'm pretty sure that when tanman said that, he was more referring to the often touted idea that Doflamingo's ability could somehow solely carry him through his scene with Jozu. That's at least what I took from his post, and considering his posts afterwards, I think that's a good assumption to make. We think that it's foolish to label Doflamingo's capture of Jozu as 'hax' because it's extremely unlikely that his DF was the only force at work. 

That scene has to be some sort of testament to Doflamingo's strength. The way he so casually restrained Doflamingo has to be something to consider. It's fine if you think that it doesn't necessarily suggest that Doflamingo's stronger - I don't think it's outright proof of anything either - but I absolutely disagree with those who say that it literally says nothing about where Doflamingo stands. I refuse to believe that if Supernova-level characters had Doflamingo's fruit, they'd be able to do the same thing to Jozu.


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## The Undying (Jul 29, 2013)

Not to take sides in this debate, but I personally find it hilarious that specific people are actually insinuating that a character's level of fighting strength should be separate from their DF ability (assuming they have one). That is an absolutely ridiculous notion, and it's one that I think wholeheartedly goes against the author's intent.

Also, I find myself hating the term "hax" more and more every day.


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## Coruscation (Jul 29, 2013)

> The point I was making was that you arbitrarily put a line in the sand for Doflamingo.



Um, no. I'm not remotely doing that. I've described exactly what happened in both incidents and called one an "incident" and another a "loss". You accuse me of that distinction being arbitrary and that the same thing happened in both instances. I wish I wouldn't have to repeat myself, but here we go. Doflamingo made Jozu stop moving. He did not visibly hurt or control him. Aokiji froze Jozu, broke his arm off and put him down for the remainder of the war. These are VASTLY different outcomes. You have to understand that I accuse you of bias because when you deny the objectively huge difference between the two outcomes and accuse me of being arbitrarily unfair to Doflamingo, that's what it looks like to me. I always give people the benefit of the doubt that they are not incapable of seeing what's objectively there. So in this case, bias was the only thing I could see that would make you say something like that.



> Gaining control over a fighter is a feat that I believe you are massively underestimating.



You say that without knowing the specifics of Doflamingo's DF power? Making your opponent pass out helpless just by being near them seems like an even better feat. How very wrongful conclusions one could have drawn if that scene was viewed uncritically. You can believe whatever you want, anyway. I'm dealing in facts. The facts of this scene are that Doflamingo stopped Jozu from moving and it seemed like Jozu could not break out. He did not control (make him move like a puppet) or hurt him.



> Narrowly escaped?



Yep. His subordinates saying he didn't get frozen all the way through and breathing heavily after the escape, implying significant effort.



> I'm talking about a direct interaction. Again, Doflamingo seized him. He obtained control of him. I don't understand how Jozu's feats against whoever are more relevant than that.



Because Jozu was caught off-guard. All Doflamingo did was seize an opportunity when Jozu was focusing on something else and stopped him from moving (I hope you will cease to use the "took control" description). It was not a fight. A fight is when two people attack each other and try to hurt one another. This did not happen between Doflamingo and Jozu to any of our knowledge. But it DID happen between Jozu and Aokiji, an Admiral who is stronger than Doflamingo for a certainty. Also, because we do not know the specifics of Doflamingo's DF ability. We really don't have a clue how it works yet. We simply can't evaluate the significance of the scene until we do.



> Would you not find Luffy's interaction with Monet more important than his interaction with Ceaser in determining whether Luffy could beat her? Were we not given a canonical comparison of the characters? Regardless of who you think is stronger, Monet came out on top of her interaction and so did Doflamingo. *That interaction suggested her superiority*.



No... no, that's exactly what it didn't. How can you say that the interaction suggested her superiority when Monet was in fact far, far inferior to Luffy? Clearly it did no such thing and most people had no trouble whatsoever seeing that at the time.

I guess we have completely different outlooks on what "suggesting superiority" means. I don't understand why you think that any situation in which any character gains any kind of advantageous position over another, completely regardless of the circumstances, match-ups, abilities involved, mindset etc. _implies superiority_ on that part. That simply doesn't make sense.



> He fought Ceaser as if he was immune to it. Ceaser's devil fruit can be defeated. It is surmountable. We saw this. However, *you're suggesting that Doflamingo taking control of a superior opponent is as simple as him catching them off guard.*



I... what? Luffy -is- immune to Caesar's poison.

Bolded -- why would that make it insurmountable? You simply have to _not get caught off guard_. Or have an ability well suited to dealing with being caught. Jozu, as an extremely strong but simple brawler, perhaps did not. Again the specifics of his Devil Fruit eludes us so none can say. I'm not putting anything forth as definitive. I'm arguing against the inexplicable refusal to admit the DF factor's significance in a series where it is almost always extremely important.



> I personally find it hilarious that specific people are actually insinuating that a character's level of fighting strength should be separate from their DF ability



It is separate and intertwined with it both. Denying that character plays a part in how effective an ability is and denying that certain abilities have powers that others do not, and that these powers can match up in many different ways for different and unexpected results (author intent, you say? Crocodile in Impel Down ring any bells?) by virtue of their nature is equally foolish. It's not black and white.


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## Lawliet (Jul 29, 2013)

To be honest, I'm lazy to read all of your posts, but Coru, are you arguing that Doflamingo is not just simply stronger than Jozu just because he had him stopped from moving using his ability? And abilities do not always determine how strong a person is? if yes, then I'll try making another post regarding all of this.


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## Vengeance (Jul 29, 2013)

Doflamingo with higher difficulty. He won't be pushed to his limits though


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## trance (Jul 29, 2013)

Ahh, the "wall of text" style of debating. Definitely not my style...

Anyway, til Vista gets more feats, DD takes this high difficulty

Also, DD is not stronger than Jozu. He is a cooler character, though...


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## Akitō (Jul 29, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> I guess we have completely different outlooks on what "suggesting superiority" means. I don't understand why you think that any situation in which any character gains any kind of advantageous position over another, completely regardless of the circumstances, match-ups, abilities involved, mindset etc. _implies superiority_ on that part. That simply doesn't make sense.



I think the entire portrayal of the scene vaguely suggested Doflamingo's superiority. Not that it was anything near concrete, but I seriously believe that if anyone objectively looked at that scene and saw Doflamingo effortlessly restrain Jozu, comically climb on top of him, and then not even really acknowledge his presence, they'd come out thinking that Doflamingo was probably stronger than Jozu. 

Obviously, with recent events in mind, it isn't as simple as that because we've feats of Jozu taking on Admirals that Doflamingo seemingly struggled against. But that doesn't take away from the suggestiveness of the Doflamingo vs. Jozu scene: I think of it like two pieces of a pie. Doflamingo vs. Jozu overall implied Doflamingo's superiority, whereas Doflamingo's interactions with the Admirals implied Jozu's superiority. Just because Jozu might turn out to be stronger than Doflamingo doesn't automatically mean that the implication of Doflamingo vs. Jozu changes - it just means that the implication turned out to be incorrect.  

At least that's how I think of it.


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## Shinthia (Jul 29, 2013)

Trance said:


> Ahh, the "wall of text" style of debating. Definitely not my style...
> 
> Anyway, til Vista gets more feats, DD takes this high difficulty
> 
> Also, DD is not stronger than Jozu. *He is a cooler character, though*...



you my friend have good taste


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## Coruscation (Jul 29, 2013)

It's not just a recent thing that calls it into question. It was always like that. Do you think people only recently have started to point out the circumstances of the event that means it doesn't really suggest Doflamingo's overall superiority? I'm guessing you know full well that's not true. Jozu took on Aokiji in an actual, 1v1, direct fight in the war, for an extended period of time. This was always a better feat and portrayal than what Doflamingo had going for him, and many people never "fell" for the simplistic view of their mutual interaction but always took into account the specific circumstances of it.



> Just because Jozu might turn out to be stronger than Doflamingo doesn't automatically mean that the implication of Doflamingo vs. Jozu changes - it just means that the implication turned out to be incorrect.



If Doflamingo isn't stronger than Jozu then obviously it never implied that in the first place. It could be a red herring, sure, but not necessarily even that. It can simply be a scene that people have often read too much into.



> are you arguing that Doflamingo is not just simply stronger than Jozu just because he had him stopped from moving using his ability?



Yes.



> And abilities do not always determine how strong a person is?



DF abilities are never black and white. They are and have always been a major part of this series which makes characters' powers unique and unpredictable. If one is involved, things are rarely straightforward and simple. Match-ups and the nature of different abilities are important. I don't want some "the person makes the DF" type response as that misses the point by a mile.


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## Akitō (Jul 29, 2013)

Well, I've always maintained that that was an odd position to take. Assuming that we're back at the latter stages of the war, I don't think there really were many people outside of the few WB fanboys (I think you know who I'm talking about) who thought that scene meant absolutely nothing because of the specific circumstances. I mean, the threads I've read from that time have the vast majority saying that Doflamingo would win or that the feat was extremely impressive and indicative of Doflamingo's superiority. Only recently have I seen people starting to excuse Jozu's performance, and that makes sense to me because now Doflamingo and Jozu have mutual enemies and Jozu fared better. 

And yes, I would categorize it as red herring. Because honestly, the scene really did portray Doflamingo in a much better light than Jozu. It's not even the fact that Doflamingo took control over Jozu that touched me - it was that he did it with a smile on his face and a complete disregard for Jozu's presence. If Jozu turns out to be stronger than Doflamingo, then the implication of the scene is still there: it's just obviously not correct, so to me either it was a.) a red herring, or b.) a mistake from Oda.


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## Coruscation (Jul 29, 2013)

Well, that's simply not true :/ It's not "only recently". I've been saying this forever and always had support. There are people who go too far on both sides, sure, but both sides also always existed legitimately.

No, honestly, it simply didn't. It _is and was always being way too gullible_ to think that it makes Doflamingo look "much better" than a man who was Whitebeard's bronze crewmember, tanked a slash from Mihawk aimed at Whitebeard without a scratch, was one of the big three on one side of the "war of the best" and fought Aokiji, an Admiral and ostensibly a rather bad match-up for him on top of that, head-on for an extended period of time. What you're doing is looking at the scene in a vacuum, ignoring the big picture. When you actually take everything fairly into account it _doesn't look like that anymore_. You also exaggerate parts of the scene to make it look like a showing of superiority rather than having to do Doflamingo's character traits. A smile on his face? That's kind of _his thing_. "Complete disregard"? How can you possibly tell that? How do you know what kind of effort he put into it, how his DF ability even works? This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's an unwarranted exaggeration and a way of blowing up the scene to something it really isn't.


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## Akitō (Jul 29, 2013)

That's why I said the 'vast majority'. You were obviously in the minority, and frankly I can understand why. 

And the reason I'm looking at the scene in a vacuum is because I'm trying to assess what that scene specifically says about their strengths relative to each other. I'm not trying to assess where they stand relative to each other - I can acknowledge that Jozu might very well be stronger than Doflamingo. But the scene in question specifically is what I'm referring to, so why would I not look at it in a vacuum? Yeah, making a conclusion solely based off of that is faulty because you have to look at the big picture. I agree with that. But we're trying to specifically assess that scene alone and determine whether is suggests a.) Doflamingo was stronger, b.) Jozu was stronger, or c.) their equality, or d.) nothing. In order to judge that scene specifically and not anything else, would it not be unwise for us to taint our interpretation with ideas about who's stronger?

Look, I understand where you're coming from, and in a way I do agree with you. I just think you're misunderstanding my point. I am _not_ arguing that the scene should be looked at in a vacuum to determine who's stronger between Jozu and Doflamingo. I'm arguing that if we're to try to accurately determine what that scene specifically suggests, then we have to look at it in a vacuum. 

It's sort of like the Trayvon Martin vs. Zimmerman case (not sure if you followed it, but whatever). If you look at the incident in a vacuum, most people thought that it was blatant racism at play. The incident specifically suggests that Zimmerman was racially profiling Martin. However, when you look at the entire thing in context and realize that there were several robberies and that Zimmerman in the past had helped out a ton of African Americans, it's easy to see that Zimmerman probably wasn't racially profiling Martin: he was just following someone that happened to be black. 

Similar to that, the Jozu vs. Doflamingo scene _specifically_ does suggest to the vast majority of readers that Doflamingo is stronger. Does that mean Doflamingo is stronger? Hell no. But that scene specifically by itself portrayed Doflamingo in a much better light to most people. That's what I'm arguing for. Looking at the big picture, it's easy to see why it isn't as clear-cut as assessing that scene alone and making a conclusion based off of that. You've got to use the big picture to judge who's stronger between the two. But I'm not trying to argue anything about the big picture right now. I'm simply addressing that one scene. 



Coruscation said:


> A smile on his face? That's kind of _his thing_.



But that's only when he's comfortable with the situation he's in. He was smiling, so logically he must've been pretty damn comfortable. I really doubt that he'd be smiling if he was putting serious effort into restraining Jozu. Also, the fact that there's absolutely no indication that he was exerting himself significantly backs up my underlying point that he probably wasn't trying very hard. 



> "Complete disregard"? How can you possibly tell that?



He didn't mention Jozu at all, he didn't look at him, and he rode on him like a horse. He didn't seem concerned in the slightest by Jozu's presence. Is that the way you treat someone you acknowledge as a serious threat to you?


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## Lawliet (Jul 29, 2013)

> DF abilities are never black and white. They are and have always been a major part of this series which makes characters' powers unique and unpredictable. If one is involved, things are rarely straightforward and simple. Match-ups and the nature of different abilities are important. I don't want some "the person makes the DF" type response as that misses the point by a mile.



I almost 100% agree with you on this. DFs powers are not just black and white. I do agree that Doflamingo is not just simply stronger than Jozu just because he simply stopped his movement during MF. Jozu was caught off guard and they were not having a fight at the first place, but I do believe that Doflamingo is indeed stronger. So, let's go back to the DF thing. These kind of things are not just white and black, it's either this or that, I agree, but let's not forget that depending on the person's strength, the DF itself and capability gets stronger as well. An example would be Law, pre skip, his room was so small, it could only contain bunch of marines you could count using two hands, post skip?  you all saw how big his room became. Now, we should also consider the difference in abilities.Not just because Law's ability works in one way, then it means Dofla's abilities should work the same way, but since we have no idea, a person is free to assume, but not claim.


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## Kid (Jul 29, 2013)

Doflamingo wins.


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## Coruscation (Jul 29, 2013)

> That's why I said the 'vast majority'.



And you're wrong about that too. This topic has been around a long time and never do I recall having been part of some tiny vocal minority fighting tooth and nail against an overwhelming consensus.



> the reason I'm looking at the scene in a vacuum is because I'm trying to assess what that scene specifically says about their strengths relative to each other.



You *can't* do that without looking at the scene in relation to every other scene. You ALWAYS need to have the big picture in mind. Otherwise you _won't see the scene for what it actually is_, because it is not written in and does not exist in a vacuum. Treating it like that is what causes all these misconceptions. I can't say this any clearer. It's simply not the rational way to evaluate the scene to look at it all by itself and not consider the bigger picture. How you view any given scene needs to be impacted by other scenes, events, statements on the same subject. Other scenes with Jozu and other scenes with Doflamingo all matter in evaluating what this scene with them together may mean. Failing to account for them is at best a misguided way of going about it and at worst simply bias.

Look at it this way. D vs. J has variables X and Y. Other scenes have variables A, B and C. Without information given through variables X and Y you _can not fully understand_ variables A, B and C, and vice versa. You will gain only an incomplete understanding of D vs. J if you don't apply the knowledge gained through other related scenes. Looking at it in a vacuum can lend some understanding, it may not even be wrong (i.e. it's possible that Doflamingo > Jozu) but it will still have been a suboptimal way to analyze it.



> But that scene specifically by itself portrayed Doflamingo in a much better light to most people. That's what I'm arguing for.



I'm not arguing about what most people think. I'm arguing about what's the most rational way to view the scene.



> But that's only when he's comfortable with the situation he's in. He was smiling, so logically he must've been pretty damn comfortable.



Like he was "pretty damn comfortable" with being face-to-face with a possibly murderous Aokiji? Smiling _is Doflamingo's thing_. We've only seen the smile seriously wiped from his face in situations where he was very, very concerned. Obviously Jozu is not the kind of threat to him that Kaidou is. Obviously he was comfortable enough to think he can handle himself, and we've no reason to believe he was wrong. This is as much as it means. Not more.



> I really doubt that he'd be smiling if he was putting serious effort into restraining Jozu.



Why? How can you possibly tell one way or another? This guy isn't someone you can imagine smiling on even through blood running down his face? 



> He didn't mention Jozu at all, he didn't look at him, and he rode on him like a horse. He didn't seem concerned in the slightest by Jozu's presence.



He presumably jumped up on his back because he was restraining him, not for shits and giggles. For all you know he had to do that but instead you view it only as an indication of how superior and effortless Doflamingo was. You again completely disregard Doflamingo's personality and character and ignore the fact that you don't know how his ability works at all. He may have had good reason to be confident because he snared Jozu off-guard and had a good position. Caesar Clown had good reason to be confident in standing up and laughing like a maniac after he attacked Luffy with Airless World the first time. All these things make perfect sense. They make _more_ sense than the idea that he is simply that superior to a man of Jozu's enormous stature, power, portrayal, feats and hype and that's what people have been saying for such a long time. The rational way to view the scene, when seen as part of a bigger whole and side by side with all other scenes, IS that Doflamingo got an advantageous position by getting the drop on Jozu. It's not a knock on him. It's a knock on the idea that the scene simply indicates his superiority.


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## Lawliet (Jul 29, 2013)

Urgoue was smiling when he was getting his ass kicked by Kizaru. Smiling is just a type of personality, it got nothing to do with how much effort you're making or how easy it is. Well, to be fair, it was easy getting kicked by Kizaru


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## Akitō (Jul 29, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> And you're wrong about that too. This topic has been around a long time and never do I recall having been part of some tiny vocal minority fighting tooth and nail against an overwhelming consensus.



You're misremembering, then. Not sure about tiny, but you must've definitely been part of a very clear minority. Just a quick search back through the threads proves this: , , . Those are the first three threads that I saw with a google search about Doflamingo vs. Jozu (or something similar to that) before Doflamingo's recent battles. The vast majority used to think Doflamingo was stronger than Jozu: the only logical way that they'd think that is if they took the D vs. J scene at face value. 



> You *can't* do that without looking at the scene in relation to every other scene. You ALWAYS need to have the big picture in mind. Otherwise you _won't see the scene for what it actually is_, because it is not written in and does not exist in a vacuum. Treating it like that is what causes all these misconceptions. I can't say this any clearer. It's simply not the rational way to evaluate the scene to look at it all by itself and not consider the bigger picture. How you view any given scene needs to be impacted by other scenes, events, statements on the same subject. Other scenes with Jozu and other scenes with Doflamingo all matter in evaluating what this scene with them together may mean. Failing to account for them is at best a misguided way of going about it and at worst simply bias.
> 
> Look at it this way. D vs. J has variables X and Y. Other scenes have variables A, B and C. Without information given through variables X and Y you _can not fully understand_ variables A, B and C, and vice versa. You will gain only an incomplete understanding of D vs. J if you don't apply the knowledge gained through other related scenes. Looking at it in a vacuum can lend some understanding, it may not even be wrong (i.e. it's possible that Doflamingo > Jozu) but it will still have been a suboptimal way to analyze it.



You're looking at things too mechanically. The D vs. J scene can suggest that Doflamingo is stronger, but Jozu can still turn out to be stronger than Doflamingo. There was good reason to assume that the D vs. J scene's suggestion was not necessarily accurate - that because Doflamingo took Jozu by surprise, Doflamingo had an unfair advantage. That does not take away from the implication of the scene, and that's what I'm trying to get across. The implication is made from looking at the scene exclusively: whether or not that implication is realistic is judged from looking at the big picture. 

Look, if you honestly don't think that D vs. J suggests that Doflamingo was stronger than Jozu, then that's fine. I think that's incredibly irrational, and I know it's unwise of me to say this, but I will anyway: you were and are in the minority in thinking that. That's a fact. That isn't to say that you're wrong, but clearly the majority of readers think it's rational to view that scene as suggesting that Doflamingo is stronger than Jozu. *Now, that does not mean in any way that the suggestion can't be wrong.* The vast majority would agree with that, and I know several members would go even further and say that it was actually wrong (J > D in reality). But the readers that I've spoken to outside of this forum who have a raw interpretation of the manga that isn't clouded by the various other interpretation on this forum and the vast majority of this forum did and still do believe that D vs. J implicated Doflamingo's superiority. Doflamingo vs. Jozu is a much more heavily debated topic because we have scenes of Doflamingo struggling against Admirals, but again, the suggestion is still there; it just might be wrong. 



> Like he was "pretty damn comfortable" with being face-to-face with a possibly murderous Aokiji? Smiling _is Doflamingo's thing_. We've only seen the smile seriously wiped from his face in situations where he was very, very concerned. Obviously Jozu is not the kind of threat to him that Kaidou is. Obviously he was comfortable enough to think he can handle himself, and we've no reason to believe he was wrong. This is as much as it means. Not more.



You can't just seclude the various parts of the scene and dismantle them one by one. You have to look at them in total: Doflamingo smiling, him seemingly casually restraining Jozu w/o any sweat marks or panting or anything that'd suggest effort, him comically riding on top of Jozu, and him just not even acknowledging Jozu's presence. Sure, Doflamingo always smiles. And sure, we don't _know_ that he didn't put a lot of effort in (although I do think it's pretty reasonable to assume that he didn't considering his mannerisms). You can knock down each of those things, but looking at in total and looking at the situation that they were in, it's pretty damn obvious that Doflamingo wasn't exerting all that much effort (as in, he wasn't going all-out or very close to it), and he wasn't taking it very seriously. 



> He presumably jumped up on his back because he was restraining him, not for shits and giggles.



What, why? He jumped on his back after he had already restrained him, didn't he?


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## The Undying (Jul 29, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> It is separate and intertwined with it both. Denying that character plays a part in how effective an ability is and denying that certain abilities have powers that others do not, and that these powers can match up in many different ways for different and unexpected results (author intent, you say? Crocodile in Impel Down ring any bells?) by virtue of their nature is equally foolish. It's not black and white.




To make myself more clear, I definitely wasn't denying any of that. What I'm saying is that Devil Fruits clearly contribute to the level of a character's overall fighting strength and can't be separated as if the concept is some 'hax' ability that somehow doesn't count whenever we attempt to quantify that strength. Unless I misunderstood some posts here, that's what certain users seemed to be implying.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 29, 2013)

Vista is a low top tier
Doflamingo is a high high tier

Vista easily


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## Coruscation (Jul 29, 2013)

> The vast majority used to think Doflamingo was stronger than Jozu: the only logical way that they'd think that is if they took the D vs. J scene at face value.



You also see plenty of the mindless "Dofla fodderizes" in those threads. I thought we were conscious of the fact that the extremes on either side are wrong and not worth listening to?



> You're looking at things too mechanically. The D vs. J scene can suggest that Doflamingo is stronger, but Jozu can still turn out to be stronger than Doflamingo.



No. If Doflamingo is in actuality weaker than Jozu then the scene was not suggesting that Doflamingo is stronger than Jozu. How is this "too mechanic"? It's *common sense*. It can't be both at the same time. If Oda means for J>D he would not write something that intends to show D>J. Then it would be a red herring at best; which would mean that Oda wrote something that made Doflamingo look stronger than he really is if viewed uncritically, _not_ an actual suggestion that Doflamingo > Jozu.



> There was good reason to assume that the D vs. J scene's suggestion was not necessarily accurate - that because Doflamingo took Jozu by surprise, Doflamingo had an unfair advantage. That does not take away from the implication of the scene, and that's what I'm trying to get across



This doesn't make any sense. If it was an "inaccurate suggestion" then it was rather no suggestion at all. Simply either a red herring or something that people hastily and uncritically read more into than was really there.



> Doflamingo vs. Jozu is a much more heavily debated topic because we have scenes of Doflamingo struggling against Admirals



No, it isn't. These scenes happened *extremely* recently but this isn't a new topic. It's been debated for a long time. The people who saw it as red herring/reading too much into it back then are likely the ones who still do so. If it's taken other people until now to see that they may have read too much into it, why is that an issue anyway? It only means they were reading too much into it all along.



> You can't just seclude the various parts of the scene and dismantle them one by one. You have to look at them in total



I am, and I see *Doflamingo's usual behavior*. A cocky and arrogant way of holding himself that typically only changes when things get extremely serious, such as the prospect of an Emperor coming at him to kill him. He was smiling and looking cocky even after Aokiji froze him. _You_ can't just dismiss the fact that these mannerisms are very much a part of Doflamingo's character and instead pretend that it's no different than if anyone else had been grinning. Because of your insistence on viewing the scene isolated from its proper context you manage to ignore that the actual intent behind it being to suggest Doflamingo is simply that much superior is ridiculously unlikely. On the other hand am I going to pretend that he would have acted no differently if he was trying to mess with Kaidou? Of course not. I'm going to see it for what it is and not read more into than what's really there. I saw a Doflamingo with his usual cocky behavior, which he has no reason to lose because he's near a fighter around his own level, who he on top of that managed to get the drop on and put into a disadvantageous position. He wore the same arrogant smile when he was attacked by Aokiji. Why am I supposed to remotely accept an argument of the sort "he should have looked strained or not smiled if he wasn't stronger than Jozu"?



> He jumped on his back after he had already restrained him, didn't he?



Or he jumped on his back to restrain him. Maybe it's easier the closer he gets. Maybe he couldn't walk around Jozu and still talk to Crocodile. You don't know and neither do I. This is why it's foolish to presume too much when we have so little information about how his ability actually works.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 29, 2013)

The DD and Jozu encounter does suggest DD>Jozu. Any scene where one guy is helpless and the other guy is talking to someone else ignoring your existence  suggests such a thing. evidence to the contrary does not change what the scene suggests. *It was the marine ford war anyway there was red herrings left and right. 
*
but my point is portrayal is just that portrayal, Its not fact by any stretch of the imagination, and should not be taken as such.

Hyouzou being the proclaimed strongest swordsmen of fishman island, blocking a G2 Punch from Luffy, and later on overdosing on drugs which are suppose to double your physical strength with each Pill. Would suggest that he would be quite the fearsome opponent, but he was not in any fashion. He was still built up and portrayed as someone quite strong nothing can change that.

Regardless its to early to call that scene a red herring. Lets just see what happens this Arc with Doflamingo. The hype and portrayal Oda has given him can most certainly be extended to be above Jozu. We will just have to wait and see how Strong Oda makes him.


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## Akitō (Jul 29, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> You also see plenty of the mindless "Dofla fodderizes" in those threads. I thought we were conscious of the fact that the extremes on either side are wrong and not worth listening to?



What are you talking about? That a.) doesn't in any way mean that you weren't wrong about your position (that J vs. D not suggesting that Doflamingo is stronger than Jozu was not a minority opinion) and b.) there are still many more people outside of the extremes that thought it was suggestive of Doflamingo being stronger than Jozu. You can't just ignore a large population of the posters in order to better your position. That's ridiculous. The vast majority thought that D vs. J implied Doflamingo > Jozu. That is a fact. Period. 

I don't care if you want to pretend that most of members are irrational. The fact remains that you were dead wrong.

And also, I don't even see why we should ignore those members in the first place. Is their conclusion weird? Sure. The argument isn't about the conclusion. It's about whether or not D vs. J was suggestive of D>J. The people who say D 'fodderizes' J obviously think the scene was suggestive of D>J. This is simple. You can go on about how that's such a stupid stance to take that their opinions shouldn't count, but it's a fact that their reasoning was that D vs. J implied that Doflamingo > Jozu. 



> This doesn't make any sense. If it was an "inaccurate suggestion" then it was rather no suggestion at all. Simply either a red herring or something that people hastily and uncritically read more into than was really there.



No. The entire premise of a suggestion is that it isn't outright proof. The conclusion the suggestion reaches can be inaccurate. That's the whole point. Implications and suggestions are broader terms than 'proof' - that's the reason we use them instead of saying D vs. J 'proves' that D>J. If something is implied, but that implication actually turns out to be false, then the implication doesn't suddenly disappear. Implications and suggestions are tentative by nature. The conclusions they support are tentative. 



> No, it isn't. These scenes happened *extremely* recently but this isn't a new topic. It's been debated for a long time.



Er, as you saw in the threads I previously posted, the _vast_ majority agreed that Doflamingo vs. Jozu would end up with Doflamingo's victory. It was debated, okay (i.e. around four guys vs. twenty guys). But not nearly to the extent that it is now, nor was it nearly as split as it is now. 



> If it's taken other people until now to see that they may have read too much into it, why is that an issue anyway? It only means they were reading too much into it all along.



They weren't reading into it too much, though. They simply realized that the implication in D vs. J might've been wrong. 



> I am, and I see *Doflamingo's usual behavior*. A cocky and arrogant way of holding himself that typically only changes when things get extremely serious, such as the prospect of an Emperor coming at him to kill him. He was smiling and looking cocky even after Aokiji froze him. _You_ can't just dismiss the fact that these mannerisms are very much a part of Doflamingo's character and instead pretend that it's no different than if anyone else had been grinning. Because of your insistence on viewing the scene isolated from its proper context you manage to ignore that the actual intent behind it being to suggest Doflamingo is simply that much superior is ridiculously unlikely. On the other hand am I going to pretend that he would have acted no differently if he was trying to mess with Kaidou? Of course not. I'm going to see it for what it is and not read more into than what's really there. I saw a Doflamingo with his usual cocky behavior, which he has no reason to lose because he's near a fighter around his own level, who he on top of that managed to get the drop on and put into a disadvantageous position. He wore the same arrogant smile when he was attacked by Aokiji. Why am I supposed to remotely accept an argument of the sort "he should have looked strained or not smiled if he wasn't stronger than Jozu"?



My point is that it clearly took not much effort for him to restrain Jozu. He was laughing, no sweat marks, no nerves, no acknowledgment of Jozu. He stood on top of him like the man was a joke. Yeah, it's typical Doflamingo and that's my entire point. He's only so casual when he's extremely comfortable in the position that he's in. With Aokiji, he was sweating and panting. Yes, he was smiling, but like I said you can't just isolate one thing by itself and target just that. It's the summation of all those things. With Fujitora, we saw Doflamingo grimace as he was trying to get rid of the meteors. With Aokiji, we saw that he was physically straining himself. With Jozu, he had the exact same mannerisms as he did when he embarassed Atmos and the Vice Admirals and Bellamy. Just completely casual, no sign of any effort or strain. 



> Or he jumped on his back to restrain him. Maybe it's easier the closer he gets. Maybe he couldn't walk around Jozu and still talk to Crocodile. You don't know and neither do I. This is why it's foolish to presume too much when we have so little information about how his ability actually works.



He already restrained him before he jumped on his back. Unless of course you're suggesting that while Jozu was moving, Doflamingo jumped over and on top of him in plain view and only then restrained him. And that'd be absolutely ridiculous and would only hype up Doflamingo's speed/reactions even more. Remember that Doflamingo was standing in front of Jozu right next to Crocodile. The logical conclusion to reach is that Doflamingo restrained Jozu, and then jumped on top of him. Of course we don't know for sure that Doflamingo didn't need to jump on Jozu to restrain him afterwards, but I'm not going to assume something like that when no mention was made of it and there's no reason to assume that. This is the first time I'm hearing of something like this, and I think there's a reason for  that. He certainly didn't 'presumably' do it because it helped him.


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## Akitō (Jul 29, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Vista is a low top tier
> Doflamingo is a high high tier
> 
> Vista easily



Here's another dumb idea that's way too often thrown around in this section. Why must every top-tier be able to beat every 'high-high' tier with low-difficulty? These tiers make no sense whatsoever if there has to be such a massive gap between each one.


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## RF (Jul 29, 2013)

Zorofangirl is a troll, don't listen to the bullshit he spews.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Jul 29, 2013)

It seems to me that Coruscation vs Akito debates tend to be very text-heavy.


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## trance (Jul 29, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Vista is a low top tier
> Doflamingo is a high high tier
> 
> Vista easily



Dead wrong. DD is low top tier, Vista is the weakest top tier or the strongest high tier.


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## The Undying (Jul 29, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Here's another dumb idea that's way too often thrown around in this section. Why must every top-tier be able to beat every 'high-high' tier with low-difficulty? These tiers make no sense whatsoever if there has to be such a massive gap between each one.




People seem to be oddly specific with tier lists, to the point that a lot of it seems like little more than baseless speculation. The mindset behind things like "high-high tier" or "low-top tier" also seems to cross a line where individual match-ups aren't even taken into consideration anymore.


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## MayuriKurotsuchisaNazi (Jul 29, 2013)

I see it like this:

Marco beats Doflamingo handily. Doflamingo really can't win.

Jozu beats Doflamingo after a long and difficult fight.

Doflamingo beats Vista without a ton of trouble. Vista can push him, but ultimately has no chance. 

Of course, we really won't know until Doflamingo actually fights someone.


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## Captain Altintop (Jul 29, 2013)

Doflamingo might be Jozu level by hype, he should take this with very high difficulty. Just because he fears  Kaidou and Fujitora, you shouldn't underrestimate him.


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## trance (Jul 30, 2013)

Captain Altintop said:


> Doflamingo might be Jozu level by hype, he should take this with very high difficulty. Just because he fears  Kaidou and *Fujitora,* you shouldn't underrestimate him.



What? He didn't show any fear toward Fujitora. He made some small talk with him and was surprised at his power.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 30, 2013)

Aokiji shits on Doflamingo 
Jozu can give Aokiji a very difficult fight
Vista >= Jozu (top tiers) >>>> Doflamingo (High tier like Luffy)


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## trance (Jul 30, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Vista >= Jozu (top tiers) >>>> Doflamingo (High tier like Luffy)


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## Tiger (Jul 30, 2013)

Trance said:


> What? He didn't show any fear toward Fujitora. He made some small talk with him and was surprised at his power.



What reason would he have for fearing someone who is on his side? As far as he's concerned, he doesn't have to be worried about anyone under the sign of the World Government because he's their dog.



Zorofangirl24 said:


> Aokiji shits on Doflamingo
> Jozu can give Aokiji a very difficult fight
> Vista >= Jozu (top tiers) >>>> Doflamingo (High tier like Luffy)



Aokiji was clearly stronger than Doffy.
Aokiji was clearly stronger than Jozu.
Doffy was clearly stronger than Jozu.

Doesn't tell us much. Not only that, but just because Doffy could manhandle Jozu, and we assume Jozu is stronger than Vista, doesn't automatically mean Doffy could manhandle Vista. Jozu is pure power, brute force, and bludgeoning attacks. Vista is a world-class swordsman. Even if it's 100% true that Jozu would beat up Vista, that doesn't necessarily mean someone who beats Jozu could beat Vista.

That's just not how it works in the world of adults.


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## Shinthia (Jul 30, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Aokiji shits on Doflamingo
> Jozu can give Aokiji a very difficult fight
> Vista >= Jozu (top tiers) >>>> Doflamingo (High tier like Luffy)


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## trance (Jul 30, 2013)

Law said:


> What reason would he have for fearing someone who is on his side? As far as he's concerned, he doesn't have to be worried about anyone under the sign of the World Government because he's their dog.



Well, Fujitora was a bit suspicious of him.

DD also wasn't afraid of Kuzan.


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## Artful Lurker (Aug 3, 2013)

Young Master mid difficulty


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## RF (Aug 3, 2013)

> Doffy was clearly stronger than Jozu.



No he was not. People should seriously stop using that overhyped war scene as some sort of proof of Doflamingo's superiority to Jozu. 

It's basically the same thing as Caesar Clown catching Luffy off-guard and temporarily putting him down due to a hax ability. That's exactly what Do did to Jozu, nothing more, nothing less. Stopped him from moving. That's it. Both were in a mutual struggle, seeing how neither were able to avoid Crocodile's _Sables_. 

This argument retained some kind of relevance when Do was pracitcally featless. But not now.

Aokiji casually freezing Doflamingo with his hands in his pockets, despite the latter being aware of his presence and intentions, and the ice man making him exert himself and retreat with the same said attack gives us a much clearer picture of where he stands.

Jozu on the other hand, interfered in Whitebeard's fight, and Edward left Jozu to deal with the admiral alone. He advanced without even glimpsing back, with full confidence that Jozu can do more than just be a minor nuisance to him. They were clashing equally in close quarters for an entire chapter, before Oda _went out of his way_ to make Jozu lose focus on the fight, leading to the admiral with the most-well suited abilities to get past his defense, by getting a clear opening. 

That, and Jozu's other feats such as blocking and laughing off Mihawk's slash aimed at Whitebeard, and having the best strength feat in this manga, plus his hype of being part of the monster trio of the strongest crew in the world, should be more of importance than a minor scene in a chaotic, and generally inconsistent war.


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## Lord Melkor (Aug 3, 2013)

Good post from Sakazuki. On the other hand, that scene between Jozu and Doflamingo does imply that Jozu shouldn`t be that much stronger than Doflamingo.

I could see this fight going either way depending on how Dofla's fruit interacts with Vista's swordmanship.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 3, 2013)

People assume that Jozu is stronger than Vista. Unfortunately its the other way around, 
so if Doflamingo=Jozu....
then Vista > Doflamingo


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

^Your trolling to predictable bro.

Switch it up a bit.


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## MrWano (Aug 3, 2013)

Giving the master puppeteer this one for now. Neither have gone all out though and with Vista holding off Mihawk, I could see this going either way once we know what both are truly capable of. Though that might never happen with Vista.


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## Mihawk (Aug 3, 2013)

Doffy makes Vista's corpse his puppet.


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## Typhon (Aug 3, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> No he was not. People should seriously stop using that overhyped war scene as some sort of proof of Doflamingo's superiority to Jozu.
> 
> It's basically the same thing as Caesar Clown catching Luffy off-guard and temporarily putting him down due to a hax ability. That's exactly what Do did to Jozu, nothing more, nothing less. Stopped him from moving. That's it. Both were in a mutual struggle, seeing how neither were able to avoid Crocodile's _Sables_.
> 
> ...



You need to stop with that greatest strength feat in the manga BS. It just shows how much you try to hype up the commanders. 

Garp still has the greatest strength feat in this manga to date, not Jozu.


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## RF (Aug 3, 2013)

And why is that ? The canonball Garp threw was slightly larger than a ship. The iceberg Jozu threw made giants look like bugs. Good luck calculating the mass of both objects. Unless you do that, your argument is just as solid as mine.


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## Bitty (Aug 3, 2013)

Omnation said:


> You need to stop with that greatest strength feat in the manga BS. It just shows how much you try to hype up the commanders.
> 
> Garp still has the greatest strength feat in this manga to date, not Jozu.



does it matter? It's still honestly one of the best physical strength feats in the series...a very pinnacle one at that. If not Garp then Jozu...If not Jozu then Garp. They're similar feats & neither one really outclassed the other.  Garp threw a giant iron ball with 1 hand like a baseball & Jozu hurled a near mountain-sized iceberg that took an admiral to come & stop. The feats are arguable at least even if Garp has the better one.


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## Typhon (Aug 3, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> And why is that ? The canonball Garp threw was slightly larger than a ship. The iceberg Jozu threw made giants look like bugs. Good luck calculating the mass of both objects. Unless you do that, your argument is just as solid as mine.



Do you know how heavy iron is in relation to ice? Do you know that Garp picked that thing up with one hand and threw it atleast the distance of the cannon itself. That alone beats Jozu's two handed toss that barely went anywhere in relation.


*Spoiler*: __ 





vs





It's not mountain sized either unless you consider Jozu extremely huge himself.


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## RF (Aug 3, 2013)

You can't properly calculate the distance in those 2 panels because Oda tends to be inconsistent when drawing. The only thing that works for your argument is that Garp did it more casually.

Still then, it doesn't matter whether Garp's feat is better. This is still the second most impressive showing of pure physical strength in the manga.


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## RF (Aug 3, 2013)

> It's not mountain sized either unless you consider Jozu extremely huge himself.



Jozu is nearly as tall as Whitebeard.


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## Lawliet (Aug 3, 2013)

Jozu is huge(wider than a lot of characters) but he's not nearly as tall as Whitebeard, I don't think he's even close.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

He's pretty close.


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## Akitō (Aug 4, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> Good post from Sakazuki. On the other hand, that scene between Jozu and Doflamingo does imply that Jozu shouldn`t be that much stronger than Doflamingo.



This. 

I don't think it's fair to exactly compare Jozu vs. Doflamingo to Ceasar vs. Luffy. Ceasar's ability specifically works in such a way where regardless of how strong you are, if you're caught off guard it'll take you down. From what we know of Doflamingo's ability, it probably doesn't work in such a one dimensional way - he uses strings to control his enemies, so it'd be counter intuitive if his ability worked so that once you're caught in the strings, you're done for no matter who you are and no matter who's using the ability. What kind of strings are entirely strength/Haki resistant? I personally see it as an ability that strengthens as the user strengthens. In contrast, with Ceasar's ability if you're able to get rid of the oxygen in the area, regardless of how strong you are or your enemy is, you'll be able to suffocate him. 

Basically, I just don't think it's fair to say things like, "Doflamingo's encounter with Jozu literally means nothing because we saw Ceasar beat Luffy by catching him off guard". That'd be true if Doflamingo's ability worked in a way that isn't really dependent on the user's strength and is able to catch anyone (regardless of strength) if they're off guard. I really don't think Doflamingo's ability is one of those, though. 

Having said that, I do definitely agree that the action of Doflamingo trapping Jozu isn't proof of Doflamingo being stronger than Jozu. Not even close, actually. No matter what kind of ability you're using, catching someone off guard is a huge advantage; so even though I don't think Doflamingo's ability is the type of ability that's massively overpowered if the enemy is off-guard (unlike Ceasar's gas, which again basically works no matter how strong the opponent is), it's extremely flawed to just look at the end result and declare that Doflamingo's stronger.

The scene itself IMO strongly suggests that they're on the same general level. I seriously doubt Doflamingo would be casually standing atop Jozu if he wasn't near him in strength, and I also seriously doubt that he'd be able to so casually ensnare him - again, I don't think Doflamingo's ability works in a way where it's independent of the user's strength.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 4, 2013)

Vista>>>> Doflamingo
Why is this even a question?
Luffy is Doflamingo level
Vista >>>>> Luffy


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## trance (Aug 4, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> And why is that ? The canonball Garp threw was slightly larger than a ship. The iceberg Jozu threw made giants look like bugs. Good luck calculating the mass of both objects. Unless you do that, your argument is just as solid as mine.



Not sure how much it matters but the OBD did calc the weight of both objects:

Jozu's iceberg came to approximately 13 million tons.

Garp's cannonball came to approximately 10 million tons.

Garp's was considered more casual though...


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