# Itachi wasn't serious when he used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke.



## Bookworm (Jul 21, 2018)

"We know that Tsukuyomi is able to cause the opponent to perceive 72 hours worth of time in a second. That's why Itachi couldn't have been used Tsukuyomi to its full capacity on Sasuke."

"Let me explain, Tsukuyomi is a jutsu that repeats the same experiences over and over again. It also has black and white imagery. The repeated experience seems to be necessary because, the alternative is impossible for Itachi, to speed up his own perception enough to control everything in a genjutsu with as much time dilation as 72 hours/1 second."

"When Sasuke was supposedly put under Tsukuyomi, Itachi was reacting to what Sasuke did. That means Itachi perception was increased by 72 hours/1 second, if he used Tsukuyomi. That's the only way he could react to Sasuke, assuming he used Tsukuyomi. That's why it's impossible for him to have use a 72 hour Tsukuyomi."


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2018)

Obviously, he loved his brother and planned to lose.


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## Android (Jul 21, 2018)

Sasuke broke a dead-serious Tsukuyomi.

Get over it bro ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> Sasuke broke a dead-serious Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Get over it bro ...


He planned to lose. There's no logic in that assertion.


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## Crow (Jul 21, 2018)

Sasuke did not break a dead-serious Tsukyomi with a base Sharingan because that contradicts part one, and you need a mangekyou to break Tsukyomi. Itachi had no killing intent during their fight and he planned to lose. He did plan on pushing Sasuke to the edge to release Orochimaru, but he never planned on winning. That's why we say Itachi wasn't dead serious or else Sasuke would've been in the hospital again.


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## Android (Jul 21, 2018)

He might've planned to lose, but he also planned to push Sasuke to his absolute limits. 

I mean, this is the same guy who used Tsukuyomi on his few years old brother.

Sasuke did legit counter his Genjutsu, and the DB supports this.


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## Bookworm (Jul 21, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> He might've planned to lose, but he also planned to push Sasuke to his absolute limits.
> 
> I mean, this is the same guy who used Tsukuyomi on his few years old brother.
> 
> Sasuke did legit counter his Genjutsu, and the DB supports this.



Even if you assume Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi it was never hinted or implied that he broke the 72 hour version.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 21, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> He planned to lose. There's no logic in that assertion.



He hit Sasuke with all the jutsu Sasuke could handle. 

Applying logic: he went full force with all the jutsu could handle *including Tsukuyomi*. He didn't even touch Sasuke with the jutsu Sasuke could not handle - Susanoo.


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## Jackalinthebox (Jul 21, 2018)

Itachi more than likely held back when he used Tsukuyomi vs Sasuke at the Uchiha hideout, yes. 

People just like clinging to the databook in this specific instance even though they have no issue discarding what it says in countless other instances


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## Mindovin (Jul 21, 2018)

25-30 years inside Tsukuyomi=1 second in real world as wecan see in the light novel
If Itachi wanted he destroyer Sasuke's mind but Sasuke freed himself with the usage of CS2 as it give him chakra from outside of his own reservers


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 21, 2018)

Even the Databook confirms that Sasuke straight up broke Tsukuyomi, there is nothing to debate here, Sasuke can counter Tsukuyomi. That's all there is to it.


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## Bookworm (Jul 21, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Even the Databook confirms that Sasuke straight up broke Tsukuyomi, there is nothing to debate here, Sasuke can counter Tsukuyomi. That's all there is to it.



The DB never said Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, it said he defeated MS.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He hit Sasuke with all the jutsu Sasuke could handle.
> 
> Applying logic: he went full force with all the jutsu could handle *including Tsukuyomi*. He didn't even touch Sasuke with the jutsu Sasuke could not handle - Susanoo.


Logic: He had no way of knowing whether a 3-toma kid could handle Tsukuyomi and loved his brother more than anything - he weakened it purposely. Wasn't even consistent with what Tsukuyomi is - a torturing Genjutsu - the illusion was a play-out of potential bunshin and weapon exchanges in the battle Sasuke wasn't even hurt in it. 

This is all under the assumption the technique can even be broken. 1 second and Sasuke realizes he's been caught, deals with the damage being done to his brain, and breaks the all-world Genjutsu. All in 1 second... sounds reasonable.

Not.

My argument is backed by the manga. Yours is backed by a fanbook where fans have influence on the publication, and that issues hyperbole and falsities like it's a world-class bullshitter that's been working the streets for 20 years.


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## Zero890 (Jul 21, 2018)

Sasuke broke Itachi's Tsukuyomi, if Itachi did not do what he wanted in the illusion (like stabbing him for 72 hours) not because he did not want to, it was because he could not ... as at the beginning when they have a Genjutsu duel, they could counterattack the other's Genjutsu, Sasuke in this case was clearly resisting the Genjutsu.


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## Sequester (Jul 21, 2018)

Still on things like this? Sasuke broke it, maybe Itachi knew that he could. Yeah we know he wasn't trying to beat Sasuke, which is why he didn't use the stronger forbidden genjutsu. Tsukuyomi is cool, but it is not unbeatable.


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## Zero890 (Jul 21, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> My argument is backed by the manga. Yours is backed by a fanbook where fans have influence on the publication, and that issues hyperbole and falsities like it's a world-class bullshitter that's been working the streets for 20 years.



The Databook is not made by fans.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 21, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> Logic: He had no way of knowing whether a 3-toma kid could handle Tsukuyomi and loved his brother more than anything - he weakened it purposely. Didn't even look like Tsukuyomi, which canonically has the opponent tied to a post taking stabbings indefinitely.
> 
> This is all under the assumption the technique can even be broken. 1 second and Sasuke realizes he's been caught, deals with the damage being done to his brain, and breaks the all-world Genjutsu. All in 1 second... sounds reasonable.
> 
> Not.



Apparently he did hence Sasuke was hit with no more than he could handle. In case you forgot, Tsukuyomi is an Genjutsu, canonically. Genjutsu takes whatever form Itachi wants it to e.g. like he made Sasuke see the Uchiha clan's murder instead of being stabbed with swords indefinitely. 

Itachi himself said the Sharingan provides resistance and that Uchiha can break the jutsu. Foreshadowing that Sasuke would break the illusion. Sasuke was actually able to fight back in the illusion, which indicates resistance. 

What's reasonable is saying Itachi hit Sasuke with all jutsu he could handle except the ones he couldn't e.g. Susanoo.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> The Databook is not made by fans.


The publication is influenced by fans. It's been sold with "Fanbook" on it's title, the same title given to books where the author had no influence in writing.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Apparently he did hence Sasuke was hit with no more than he could handle. In case you forgot, Tsukuyomi is an Genjutsu, canonically. Genjutsu takes whatever form Itachi wants it to e.g. like he made Sasuke see the Uchiha clan's murder instead of being stabbed with swords indefinitely.
> 
> Itachi himself said the Sharingan provides resistance and that Uchiha can break the jutsu. Foreshadowing that Sasuke would break the illusion. Sasuke was actually able to fight back in the illusion, which indicates resistance.
> 
> What's reasonable is saying Itachi hit Sasuke with all jutsu he could handle except the ones he couldn't e.g. Susanoo.


Tsukuyomi is a torture Genjutsu - not an entrapment technique.

It's designed to alter time for a purpose, that purpose is not to play out fabricated exchanges between two opponents - it's purpose is to torture the opponent IMMEDIATELY.

Itachi had no idea of knowing what Sasuke could or couldn't handle. He saw him once in like 10 years, not even Oro knew he had Genjutsu capabilities and he taught him personally, lived in his hideout for years, and headed a massive international spy network harboring the most knowledge of any living shinobi in the world. 

The logical conclusion being he altered the Tsukuyomi and either weakened it to make it breakable by a Uchiha, or deactivated it himself, in which case no one would've known but him.

Everything you're speaking is assumption backed by no logic whatsoever. His plan was to die, he loved his brother more than the universe itself and slaughtered his entire family for him, the presumption he hit his brother with his full powered Genjutsu prowess due to a fanbook entry when the technique completes so fast it's considered unbreakable regardless - is absurd given these circumstances in the actual manga.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jul 21, 2018)

The Jutsu Itachi used, he used to their full extent.

Sasuke's Katon>Itachi's etc

He wasn't holding back the power of his Jutsu's, and the only thing he had that Sasuke couldn't deal with was Susanoo.

Get over it Itachi wankers, Sasuke broke it.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 21, 2018)

Itachi, Zetsu, Sasuke, AND Obito all straight up state Sauce busted that Tsukuyomi

The DB also states Sauce broke it

Nothing indicates Itachi held back any terrible amount with his Tsukuyomi

We also blatantly see Itachi not handle the strain of it well at all...Highly doubt that a notably restrained Tsukuyomi would physically and IMMEDIATELY hinder him for a PROLONGED period of time...Yet thats what ended up happening to him

Theres genuinely 0 debate here

Itachi CLEARLY used the lions share of Tsukuyomis power on Sasuke...Otherwise it wouldn't have been made out to be a massive deal...And it was...


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Itachi, Zetsu, Sasuke, AND Obito all straight up state Sauce busted that Tsukuyomi
> 
> The DB also states Sauce broke it
> 
> ...


What did you think happened prior to the fanbook entry when Obito said Itachi lied to everyone and killed his family for Sasuke, died on purpose and planned the entire battle out?

I'm just curious.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 21, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> What did you think happened prior to the fanbook entry when Obito said Itachi lied to everyone and killed his family for Sasuke, died on purpose and planned the entire battle out?
> 
> I'm just curious.


Why did you base your entire retort on the fact i referenced the DB 

There are several other sources in the canon manga and other reasons i laid out as to why it objectively makes 0 sense for that Tsukuyomi to have been terribly weakened 

Anywho, to answer your question

COnsidering every character present states Sasuke beat Tsukuyomi, it means he beat Tsukuyomi 

...Meaning his strategy to "lose on purpose" accounted for the fact that Sasuke would beat Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu

Itachi would have no reason to hold back as he fully believed Sasuke capable of busting it

How he attained this information i have no fucking idea

But Obito states he somehow knew it 

And that snot in the fanmade databook


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 21, 2018)

Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi not to mention any illusion for that matter from a world class illusionist implied to manipulate the shinobi large groups of them of the Shinobi Alliance Division is in itself asinine. Shouldn't even be taken seriously.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Why did you base your entire retort on the fact i referenced the DB
> 
> There are several other sources in the canon manga and other reasons i laid out as to why it objectively makes 0 sense for that Tsukuyomi to have been terribly weakened
> 
> ...


You didn't answer my question.

What did you think happened before the databook entry?

Because 99.9% of posters thought the Tsukuyomi break was garbage nonsense.

Were you even reading the manga at that stage?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 21, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> What did you think happened before the databook entry?


...

I DID answer your question...Twice now...

It was stated by itachi and zetsu DURING the battle that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi...They gave that whole " a weapon is only as good as its wielder" logic as reasoning and all of that shit as well so its not like it was unfounded in the manga.

And its highlighted again by Obito POST battle that breaking Tsukyomi was still valid...Even with Itachi supposedly "loving" his brother. 




DaVizWiz said:


> Because 99.9% of posters thought the Tsukuyomi break was garbage nonsense


Then 99.9% of posters werent really paying attention


DaVizWiz said:


> Were you even reading the manga at that stage


No need to be condescending about it

Ive been reading the manga since early part 2 (Kazekage arc) on a weekly basis


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> ...
> 
> I DID answer your question...Twice now...
> 
> ...


So? Who cares what they said.

Do you think he broke Tsukuyomi before the databook entry?


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2018)

Sasuke defeated ALL of itachi's jutsu. The only one he couldn't handle is the Susanoo.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> So? Who cares what they said.
> 
> Do you think he broke Tsukuyomi before the databook entry?


That's literally shown in the manga when he broke it.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I DID answer your question...Twice now...



Yeah, @DaVizWiz does that, just did it to me in another thread, you'll address one of his points that he makes several times, then he'll say you didn't address it 

Maybe he's just having an off day idk


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 21, 2018)

Why would Itachi seriously use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke when he was borderline fodder, but then not be serious later on when Sasuke was way deadlier?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 21, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tsukuyomi is a torture Genjutsu - not an entrapment technique.
> 
> It's designed to alter time for a purpose, that purpose is not to play out fabricated exchanges between two opponents - it's purpose is to torture the opponent IMMEDIATELY.
> 
> ...



Tsukuyomi is just Genjutsu, the manga said it and the databook confirms it. As per the laws of Genjutsu the caster can make the target see whatever the caster chooses. 

It does distort the victim's perception of time and can control the target... but it also can be resisted as Itachi himself said.

Itachi had an idea. He knew Sasuke was an Uchiha with more talent than himself and would never dare to challenge Itachi unless he knew specifically that he could beat him. He knew via intel and the Uchiha tablet Sasuke would know about Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, and that Sasuke would have prepared for them. 

So considering all factors *without *omitting anything and actually looking at what happened while accounting for portrayal etc: Sasuke did break Tsukuyomi.

Everything I've put forward considers all the elements you looked at and the ones you've chosen to ignore. Your logic also lies *on a databook and manga HYPERBOLE*. You are in no position to call anyone's points illogical when a hyperbole is the foundation of your whole stance.

If Tsukuyomi was as potent then - incoming controversial point - Killer Bee would have not broken when Sasuke used it. Also Itachi would have used it in top tier battles against Nagato - first to break him mentally then to control him. Before then, he would have been forced to use it on Itachi and Bee to take them out quickly so Kabuto could get hold of them. 
In fact, if it was that potent, Itachi would have used a *Tensha Fuuin: Tsukuyomi *to permanently disable Obito thereby protecting his little brother.

My argument perfectly explains why all those instances happened, yours does not. In fact yours suggest that Sasuke/Itachi/Kabuto would have directly benefited if Tsukuyomi hit thus would make a more conscious effort to use it more. 

Even if you want to discount the Sasuke example, you cannot discount the Itachi and Edo Itachi examples.


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## Bookworm (Jul 21, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsukuyomi is just Genjutsu, the manga said it and the databook confirms it. As per the laws of Genjutsu the caster can make the target see whatever the caster chooses.
> 
> It does distort the victim's perception of time and can control the target... but it also can be resisted as Itachi himself said.
> 
> ...



- Sasuke attacked Madara, without knowing he can beat him and did the same with Danzo (Danzo could of won using Koto on Sasuke if he was at full power. Sasuke didn't know that.)

- He had no reason to use Tensha Fuuin: Tsukuyomi on Tobi when he thought he would be dead with Amaterasu (a flame that doesn't go out for 7 days. As far as Itachi knew Tobi would be deader than dead after being hit with it)?


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## Mindovin (Jul 21, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Tsukuyomi was as potent then - incoming controversial point - Killer Bee would have not broken when Sasuke used it.


Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi,  he used MS Genjutsu.


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## Bonly (Jul 21, 2018)

Sasuke was told that Itachi was holding back by Obito and then Sasuke thought of the MS jutsu when he learned Itachi wasn’t going all out

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Jul 21, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> He might've planned to lose, but he also planned to push Sasuke to his absolute limits.
> 
> I mean, this is the same guy who used Tsukuyomi on his few years old brother.
> 
> Sasuke did legit counter his Genjutsu, and the DB supports this.


How did Tsukuyomi have any bearing on the amount of chakra Sasuke used? That was the whole point of pushing Sasuke to his limits to make him use up his chakra.


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## Djomla (Jul 21, 2018)

Man, screw Itachi.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> The DB never said Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, it said he defeated MS.


Scan?


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## Bookworm (Jul 21, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Scan?



I can't show the scan as every time I try to post an image it doesn't work.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> I can't show the scan as every time I try to post an image it doesn't work.


When you go to edit click on "image" and then add an "s" to the "http" at the start of the image URL and it should work.


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## Bookworm (Jul 21, 2018)

Imgur says we have problem, that's where the scans at.


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## Bookworm (Jul 21, 2018)




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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - Sasuke attacked Madara, without knowing he can beat him and did the same with Danzo (Danzo could of won using Koto on Sasuke if he was at full power. Sasuke didn't know that.)
> 
> - He had no reason to use Tensha Fuuin: Tsukuyomi on Tobi when he thought he would be dead with Amaterasu (a flame that doesn't go out for 7 days. As far as Itachi knew Tobi would be deader than dead after being hit with it)?



- Okay? If this is the re the Tsukuyomi point, then as I said, with Madara its useless. With Danzo it was implied it was used.

- And if Tsukuyomi is as potent as DaWizViz says it is, that would've been a better option.



Mindovin said:


> Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi,  he used MS Genjutsu.



Kagutsuchi came _after _Susanoo. Its obvious what other jutsu he used alongside Amaterasu to obtain Susanoo.


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## Bookworm (Jul 21, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - Okay? If this is the re the Tsukuyomi point, then as I said, with Madara its useless. With Danzo it was implied it was used.


I was referring to what you said about how Sasuke wouldn't challenge Itachi unless he knew he could beat him. Sasuke challenged both Danzo and Madara and didn't know he could beat them. Sasuke was defeated by Madara and Danzo would have beat him to if he had Koto.

 If Itachi was serious Sasuke wouldn't have been able to beat him either.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - And if Tsukuyomi is as potent as DaWizViz says it is, that would've been a better option


Which is more potent causing extreme mental damage to your opponent or burning them to ashes?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> I was referring to what you said about how Sasuke wouldn't challenge Itachi unless he knew he could beat him. Sasuke challenged both Danzo and Madara and didn't know he could beat them. Sasuke was defeated by Madara and Danzo would have beat him to if he had Koto.
> 
> If Itachi was serious Sasuke wouldn't have been able to beat him either.[/QUOTE[
> 
> ...


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## Sapherosth (Jul 22, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> The Jutsu Itachi used, he used to their full extent.
> 
> Sasuke's Katon>Itachi's etc
> 
> ...



Lmao, if it was used to the full extent, why did it look COMPLETELY different to the one that hit Kakashi? Even THEN, it was held back as stated by Kakashi himself. 

Sasuke's katon only > Itachi's because of curse seal, that's it. 3T doesn't > MS just because of curse seal. 

Go read the manga.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sierra117 (Jul 22, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> He planned to lose. There's no logic in that assertion.



Hmmm. When ninja train, they seriously throw kunai and shuriken at one another, and even aim at vital spots. There's no mistake that an error on the target's behalf could result in death. I'm convinced Itachi used an all-out Tsukuyomi, but expected Sasuke to counter it at that point in time just as any basic ninja would expect the other to dodge a deadly, yet simple kunai throw.

I believe itachi cared for his brother deeply, but at the same time I believe he respectfully wanted to test his strength through excessive measures.

I do think that he wanted to lose and foresaw it, but he definitely aimed to kill multiple times.

Obviously Orochimaru didn't want to kill Sasuke in the forest of death. But there's no mistake  would have killed him and Sakura had Sasuke not overcome his fear.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 22, 2018)

Robo said:


> Hmmm. When ninja train, they seriously throw kunai and shuriken at one another, and even aim at vital spots. There's no mistake that an error on the target's behalf could result in death. I'm convinced Itachi used an all-out Tsukuyomi, but expected Sasuke to counter it at that point in time just as any basic ninja would expect the other to dodge a deadly, yet simple kunai throw.
> 
> I believe itachi cared for his brother deeply, but at the same time I believe he respectfully wanted to test his strength through excessive measures.
> 
> ...


Why would he expect him to counter it?

Even Perfect Jins (like Killer Bee) were implied to be hopeless against this technique.


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2018)

I'll just leave it here


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 22, 2018)

Architect said:


> I'll just leave it here


It's just a metaphorical representation of him beating Mangekyou Sharingan in *Zetsu's eyes. *Look at the context image shown where said statement is written. Only times a fact is utmost fact is when it's written in the main center paragraph of the page.


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## Ashi (Jul 22, 2018)

Itachi used Tsukuyomi knowing Sasuke could break it


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## Bookworm (Jul 22, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Itachi, Zetsu, Sasuke, AND Obito all straight up state Sauce busted that Tsukuyomi
> 
> The DB also states Sauce broke it
> 
> ...


- When did Tobi state that Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi?

- The DB said he defeated MS not that he broke out of Tsukuyomi.

- Assuming Sasuke did break Tsukuyomi, that would explain why Itachi was immediately hindered, as you say.

Another explanation is that it was simply his eyes reaching their limit after using the sharingan for so many years.

-  Who made a bid deal out of it and why does that automatically mean Itachi used the lion share of Tsukuyomi's power?


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## kayz (Jul 23, 2018)

Itachi used Amaterasu on Sasuke, Sasuke countered it.
Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, Sasuke countered it.
/Thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Jul 24, 2018)

Ashi said:


> Itachi used Tsukuyomi knowing Sasuke could break it



How did he know Sasuke could break it?


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## Sierra117 (Jul 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> How did he know Sasuke could break it?



Probably had faith in his training and preparation. He knows his brother's talented. So he put it to the test.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 24, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> He planned to lose. There's no logic in that assertion.


It's obvious itachi wanted to lose but  Sasuke got out of that Tsukuyomi even before itachi intended to release it.... And that is a fact, based on how surprised he was. He probably wanted to put Sasuke in it long enough for Oro to show up but Sasuke broke it.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 24, 2018)

Sasuke broke a full Serious Tsukuyomi... No evading that for the fanbois... Itachi wanted to put him in it for an extended time to force orochimaru out, but Sasuke broke it.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> How did he know Sasuke could break it?


He didn't, he probably did it to fuck sasuje up enough so that Orochimaru can surface and he can seal him. But to his surprise, Sasuke broke it before that could happen.


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## Bookworm (Jul 24, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> He didn't, he probably did it to fuck sasuje up enough so that Orochimaru can surface and he can seal him. But to his surprise, Sasuke broke it before that could happen.



Sasuke being fucked up wouldn't release Oro.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Sasuke being fucked up wouldn't release Oro.


Lmao... Read before you post man... Why not?? Sasuke fucked up means orochimaru is fucked... So Oro has to come out Atleast to save his own ass....
Sasuke broke a serious Tsukuyomi... Get over it an move on man.


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## Bookworm (Jul 24, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Lmao... Read before you post man... Why not?? Sasuke fucked up means orochimaru is fucked... So Oro has to come out Atleast to save his own ass....
> Sasuke broke a serious Tsukuyomi... Get over it an move on man.



Oro can't come out unless the chakra that's suppressing him is exhausted.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Oro can't come out unless the chakra that's suppressing him is exhausted.


And a Tsukuyomi Stricken sasuke's Chakra isn't in his control... That is the whole point of a genjutsu. Your opponent controls your Chakra and trying to fight a Tsukuyomi drains your Chakra... So inevitably oro must come out at to save his own ass. .  Jesus...
You know what, I concede...
Have a good night's rest.
It was a Sunday park stroll for itachi that fight... Sunday stroll probably needs more for him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Jul 24, 2018)

Sasuke overcame Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, the DB supports it.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 24, 2018)

Since the DB says he beat the MS while showing Genjutsu being broken, and because several characters note it, it 100% happened. 

No Tsukiyomi does not happen the same way every time. It's a genjutsu so you can control it's form. That's what yin release is all about. 

Yes. Itachi was trying to break Sasuke down as hard as he could and was clearly surprised by Sasuke's power.


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## Bookworm (Jul 24, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Since the DB says he beat the MS while showing Genjutsu being broken, and because several characters note it, it 100% happened.
> 
> No Tsukiyomi does not happen the same way every time. It's a genjutsu so you can control it's form. That's what yin release is all about.
> 
> Yes. Itachi was trying to break Sasuke down as hard as he could and was clearly surprised by Sasuke's power.



Being surprised that Sasuke broke his genjutsu doesn't mean he tried his hardest.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Being surprised that Sasuke broke his genjutsu doesn't mean he tried his hardest.


It certainly does not mean he wasn't trying though, so what it your point?


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## Bookworm (Jul 24, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> It certainly does not mean he wasn't trying though, so what it your point?



I already explained why Itachi couldn't have been using Tsukuyomi to it's fullest against Sasuke, which would be 3 day in 1 second Tsukuyomi. For him to have used that against Sasuke he would also have to increase his perception as much as he did Sasuke's perception.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 24, 2018)

You are mixing up two distinct things together.

A) did Itachi trap Sasuke in Tsukiyomi only to have Sasuke unexpectedly break out? Yes of course he did we saw it and were told it. 

And 

B) Did Itachi try to torture Sasuke for several days to break him? No. Instead Sasuke was forced to believe he was getting eyeballs ripped out. He still broke out. 

You can't say he wasn't trying, when he actively did Tsukiyomi him and use it to cause false anguish


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## Bookworm (Jul 24, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You are mixing up two distinct things together.
> 
> A) did Itachi trap Sasuke in Tsukiyomi only to have Sasuke unexpectedly break out? Yes of course he did we saw it and were told it.
> 
> ...



What am I getting mixed up?

- So you agree that Sasuke didnt use time dilation to the fullest than?

Getting your eye ripped out isn't anywhere near the extent of getting stabbed over and over again by 10+ Itachi.


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## Blaze Release (Jul 24, 2018)

I thought this was obvious.

Tsukuyomi's strength is determined by 2 things.
-The image the caster shows the victim
-The duration of technique

Prior to using Tsukyomi in their fight the image itachi has show sasuke was the slaughtering of the clan and his parents.
However in their final show down he should him a different image.
One were he was having eyes gauged out after lying to sasuke about his real intentions and wanting to become the next madara.
It is obvious that this image served a purpose
Unlike the previous image of slaughtering the clan, this image was not there to break sasuke down, but rather to lift him up. Empower him.
To rile him up even further and give him the strength to overcome the illusion.

After all as we know the angrier an uchiha gets the stronger their eye power becomes.
Or something of that nature.

The second point is simply.
The time duration.
Unlike the times were a time duration has been explicitly stated for example 72 hours for kakashi.
24 For sasuke. But in this instance there was no time duration and that is very important.
Just as important as the first point.

People seem to forget that Tsukuyomi is actually a regular genjutsu.
A genjutsu that can be used casually without a time duration.
For example in the kabuto fight, itachi used it on sasuke to cancel out kabuto's genjutsu.
It is the time duration factor when added that separates Tsukuyomi from the normal sharingan genjutsu.

So taking these factors into consideration, combined with the fact that itachi isn't stupid to hit sasuke with the strongest tsukuyomi he can muster as there are no guarantees that he would overcome this, taking into consideration his true intentions. It makes no sense at all to believe that Sasuke overcome a potent tsukuyomi.

So those arguing whether sasuke overcome tsukuyomi are just as wrong as those arguing that he overcome a strong tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi's potency can be altered. Sasuke did overcome tsukuyomi. Albeit a weak one, where the image was purposely designed to empower him, but also one with no time duration.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Braiyan (Jul 24, 2018)

For a guy who wasn't serious, getting his own genjutsu countered sure did mess Itachi up. Or did he non-seriously take a shuriken to the knee as well?


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## Bookworm (Jul 24, 2018)

Braiyan said:


> For a guy who wasn't serious, getting his own genjutsu countered sure did mess Itachi up. Or did he non-seriously take a shuriken to the knee as well?



Well if Sasuke did break Tsukuyomi that would explain that. As for the shuriken in his leg, he couldn't dodge that, because he was in air.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 24, 2018)

Architect said:


> I'll just leave it here





kayz said:


> Itachi used Amaterasu on Sasuke, Sasuke countered it.
> Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, Sasuke countered it.
> /Thread



Manga says it. Databook confirms it. Itachi fans in denial. 

Itachi wasn't serious about killing Sasuke.... Which is why Susanoo *did not touch Sasuke.*


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## MSAL (Jul 24, 2018)

Sasuke did break Tsukuyomi. That cannot be denied.

He *broke* it with the *amp from his cursed seal*, not solely his own Sharingan.










To further support this, when the illusion was shattered and he came out of it, he was* not in his Cursed Seal mrk II form*;


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 25, 2018)

One thing consistent with Itachi fans is that whenever itachi fails, whatever trick he didn't use is the strongest one, so because he didn't use it, he was holding back. 
The fact that OP thinks 72 hr version Tsukuyomi is the ultimate Tsukuyomi is cute...that reassuring oneself taken to the next level. Everyone sees different stuff in Tsukuyomi. Itachi knows mental trauma regarding his family is more painful to Sasuke than a dozen people stabbing him. But since he didn't use it, it obviously has to be the strongest version of it.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 25, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - So you agree that Sasuke didnt use time dilation to the fullest than?


If you mean Itachi: he never got a chance to find out how long he could stretch that out to because the genjutsu got broken.

The time happens outside instantly, not inside. 

To do what you assume is his fullest use of Tsukiyomi Sasuke would have to not break out for those whole 3 days in his head. 



Trolling said:


> Getting your eye ripped out isn't anywhere near the extent of getting stabbed over and over again by 10+ Itachi.


nor did he have time to do anything else, unlike Kakashi.


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## Bookworm (Jul 25, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> If you mean Itachi: he never got a chance to find out how long he could stretch that out to because the genjutsu got broken.


There's no way it could have been 3 day Tsukuyomi.



Hi no Ishi said:


> The time happens outside instantly, not inside.
> 
> To do what you assume is his fullest use of Tsukiyomi Sasuke would have to not break out for those whole 3 days in his head.


Kakashi implied Tsukuyomi couldn't beaten due to its instant nature.If having 3 days in your mind gave you extra time to break out of it, Kakashi wouldn't have said "If he catches you in his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly. It has nothing to do with whether you can defeat genjutsu or not."


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## hbcaptain (Jul 25, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> whatever trick he didn't use is the strongest one, so because he didn't use it, he was holding back.


That's canon, not an invention, Itachi always fought whilst holding back with Oro flash-back being the one and only exception. Or, are you desagreeing with the manga ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 25, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> That's canon, not an invention, Itachi always fought whilst holding back with Oro flash-back being the one and only exception. Or, are you desagreeing with the manga ?


Yeah.. I agree.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 25, 2018)

MSAL said:


> Sasuke did break Tsukuyomi. That cannot be denied.
> 
> He *broke* it with the *amp from his cursed seal*, not solely his own Sharingan.
> 
> ...



If he used the CS2, you would have seen it when the illusion broke. The CS2 represented his will to fight back. Had he lacked the CS2, then we'd have seen something else e.g. Susanoo if he had the MS.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 25, 2018)

Trolling said:


> There's no way it could have been 3 day Tsukuyomi.
> 
> 
> Kakashi implied Tsukuyomi couldn't beaten due to its instant nature.If having 3 days in your mind gave you extra time to break out of it, Kakashi wouldn't have said "If he catches you in his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly. It has nothing to do with whether you can defeat genjutsu or not."


That does not give us license to ignore that Itachi flat out tells us that some one with the Sharingan and the same blood as him could resist, as part of his discription of the jutsu.

Especially when we see that exact thing happering in the manga. 

So to recap, we have: 

1) Us being shown the jutsu being broken. On panel. 

2) Zetsu and Sasuke confirming this. 

3) Itachi being shown to be affected by this physically, and it's correlation to the jutsu being broken being said by characters on scene.

4) the means to resist being told to is by Itachi the very moment the jutsu is introduced and Sasuke meeting those requirements. Sharingan and the same blood.

5) The databook showing you a literal freaking arrow toward a picture of Tsukiyomi being broken when it tells you he beat the MS with his masterful use of of the Sharingan 

What else do really need?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 25, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> That does not give us license to ignore that Itachi flat out tells us that some one with the Sharingan and the same blood as him could resist, as part of his discription of the jutsu.
> 
> Especially when we see that exact thing happering in the manga.
> 
> ...


Bro.. You are beating the living shit out of a dead horse.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 25, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Bro.. You are beating the living shit out of a dead horse.


It's mostly for cardio


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## Bookworm (Jul 25, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> That does not give us license to ignore that Itachi flat out tells us that some one with the Sharingan and the same blood as him could resist, as part of his discription of the jutsu.
> 
> Especially when we see that exact thing happering in the manga.
> 
> ...



What's your point here? Even if Itachi said someone with the sharingan can resist Tsukuyomi, to some extent, resisting isn't breaking. More importantly, even if Sasuke *can* actually break Tsukuyomi, evidence suggest that he *can't* break it when it's use to the fullest or in other words when time dilation is used to the fullest.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 25, 2018)

Trolling said:


> What's your point here? Even if Itachi said someone with the sharingan can resist Tsukuyomi, to some extent, resisting isn't breaking. More importantly, even if Sasuke *can* actually break Tsukuyomi, evidence suggest that he *can't* break it when it's use to the fullest or in other words when time dilation is used to the fullest.


What evidence suggest that lol? 

Does it outweigh being flat out told a thing repeatedly? 
It's not "if he can" when we see him do it.

Why are you ignoring what the manga and DB tell us?

Is it just cognitive dissonance?


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## Bookworm (Jul 25, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> What evidence suggest that lol?
> 
> Does it outweigh being flat out told a thing repeatedly?
> It's not "if he can" when we see him do it.
> ...



- What kakashi said

- nowhere in the manga or the DB was it ever said that Sasuke broke out of a 3 day Tsukuyomi.


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## cringe lord (Jul 25, 2018)

Crow said:


> Sasuke did not break a dead-serious Tsukyomi with a base Sharingan because that contradicts part one, and you need a mangekyou to break Tsukyomi. Itachi had no killing intent during their fight and he planned to lose. He did plan on pushing Sasuke to the edge to release Orochimaru, but he never planned on winning. That's why we say Itachi wasn't dead serious or else Sasuke would've been in the hospital again.


not it never all it said was you needed someone with the BLOODLINE and mastery of sharingan to escape tsukuyomi, that's why when he said that, Kakashi thought of Sasuke.


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## cringe lord (Jul 25, 2018)

Trolling said:


> "We know that Tsukuyomi is able to cause the opponent to perceive 72 hours worth of time in a second. That's why Itachi couldn't have been used Tsukuyomi to its full capacity on Sasuke."
> 
> "Let me explain, Tsukuyomi is a jutsu that repeats the same experiences over and over again. It also has black and white imagery. The repeated experience seems to be necessary because, the alternative is impossible for Itachi, to speed up his own perception enough to control everything in a genjutsu with as much time dilation as 72 hours/1 second."
> 
> "When Sasuke was supposedly put under Tsukuyomi, Itachi was reacting to what Sasuke did. That means Itachi perception was increased by 72 hours/1 second, if he used Tsukuyomi. That's the only way he could react to Sasuke, assuming he used Tsukuyomi. That's why it's impossible for him to have use a 72 hour Tsukuyomi."


Tsukuyomi imagery doesn't have to be repeated and isn't shown to be limited to only 72 hours. In the manga he put izumi was put in genjutsu for 1 year in reality it was a few seconds.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 26, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - What kakashi said


So your whole argument rest on Kakashi's statement, now? 

That's also easy to squash. 

Kakashi, a person with the Sharingan and no Uchiha blood, says to a group of other people with no Sharingan and no Uchiha blood that they can't break out if a jutsu that requires you to have the Sharingan and the same blood as Itachi. 

Well no shit. 

Now do you see how that has absolutely nothing to do with Sasuke, who has both of those things yet?


Trolling said:


> - nowhere in the manga or the DB was it ever said that Sasuke broke out of a 3 day Tsukuyomi.


He can't keep him for three days if Sasuke breaks out before that point in the genjutsu. This is not complicated.

You are the one who keeps trying to make "3 day Tsukiyomi" a seperate thing when its really just him playing with your perception of time while you are in Tsukiyomi. 
He simply wasn't able to do that because, like every sourceand person keeps telling you, because Sasuke realized it was a genjutsu and broke out.


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## Maverick04 (Jul 26, 2018)

Hard to tell really..In the fight Zetsu says that Sasuke broke the Tsukuyomi and Itachi confirms it as well.

But then after the fight we see Obito say this:

*Spoiler*: __ 









> Sasuke says that it doesnt make any sense and that he came to the brink of death over a dozen times

> Obito infers that Itachi wasnt serious

> Then we see a panel of Itachi using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu right after that  conversation, which shows that Obito was implying Itachi wasnt serious at that point when using those techs


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 26, 2018)

Braiyan said:


> For a guy who wasn't serious, getting his own genjutsu countered sure did mess Itachi up. Or did he non-seriously take a shuriken to the knee as well?


Shurikens could have been dodged by Itachi but he did not because he wanted to appear weak to Sasuke. Making Sasuke think he successfully beat him was and is his original prick of plan. No visible exclamation marks in his head when he acts surprised. Such a detail never is missed had the individual been genuinely serious.


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## Sleepless (Jul 26, 2018)

Lol this is funny. If Itachi hit Sasuke with the same genjutsu he hit Kakashi, Sasuke wouldn't have broken shit he would've been mindfucked and hospitalized. Sasuke broke a Tsukuyomi that lasted like a few minutes in the illusion and a few seconds out. Itachi could've overloaded his brain and used a 100 year Tsukuyomi in a picosecond and killed Sasuke.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 26, 2018)

Maverick04 said:


> Hard to tell really..In the fight Zetsu says that Sasuke broke the Tsukuyomi and Itachi confirms it as well.
> 
> But then after the fight we see Obito say this:
> 
> ...



_That's_ what you got from the page?

> Sasuke says that it doesnt make any sense and that he came to the brink of death over a dozen times

> Obito infers that Itachi wasnt serious

> Sasuke said Itachi used *every Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu he had to try and kill him*

> Then we see a panel of Itachi using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu right after that  conversation.

That does not show that Obito was implying Itachi wasn't serious at that point when using those techs. It shows when Sasuke said Itachi tried to kill him with every MS jutsu he had, Sasuke thought of those jutsu.

Notice how Susanoo wasn't in that list.


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## Sleepless (Jul 26, 2018)

cringe lord said:


> izumi was put in genjutsu for 1 year in reality it was a few seconds.


Wrong. He put her in an illusion that lasted her whole life around 80 years in picoseconds. I don't think it was shown in the manga it happened in the Itachi novels.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 26, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> Lol this is funny. If Itachi hit Sasuke with the same genjutsu he hit Kakashi, Sasuke wouldn't have broken shit he would've been mindfucked and hospitalized. Sasuke broke a Tsukuyomi that lasted like a few minutes in the illusion and a few seconds out. Itachi could've overloaded his brain and used a 100 year Tsukuyomi in a picosecond and killed Sasuke.


Sad part is Sasuke broke it before your Pico second infinity torture fantasy happened. But if it makes you itachi fans sleep better  why not.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 26, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> Lol this is funny. If Itachi hit Sasuke with the same genjutsu he hit Kakashi, Sasuke wouldn't have broken shit he would've been mindfucked and hospitalized. Sasuke broke a Tsukuyomi that lasted like a few minutes in the illusion and a few seconds out. Itachi could've overloaded his brain and used a 100 year Tsukuyomi in a picosecond and killed Sasuke.



Itachi explicitly said that Kakashi's Sharingan would provide him with some resistance... it did. Then he went on to say an Uchiha with the Sharingan could beat him... Sasuke did. 

Sasuke had stronger chakra than Itachi and a strong enough base Sharingan to resist and overcome Tsukuyomi. The CS2 represented Sasuke's hatred/emotions which Tobirama said increases the Uchiha's strength. 

Basically there's a lot for Itachi fans to deny to say Sasuke _didn't _break Tsukuyomi.

Controversially you can cite Killer B breaking it... a non Uchiha?!


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## Bookworm (Jul 26, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> So your whole argument rest on Kakashi's statement, now?


There also the fact that Itachi would have to have the ability to dramatically increase his own perception, if he used 3 day Tsukuyomi on Sasuke and he doesn't have that ability.


Hi no Ishi said:


> That's also easy to squash.
> 
> Kakashi, a person with the Sharingan and no Uchiha blood, says to a group of other people with no Sharingan and no Uchiha blood that they can't break out if a jutsu that requires you to have the Sharingan and the same blood as Itachi.
> 
> ...


Kakashi made a sweeping statement, he didn't just imply they couldn't break it, it implies not only kakashi's group, but others as well. Of course it includes Sasuke. If Kakashi meant that it's just them that couldn't beat it instead of everyone, he could have easily have said this:

"If you're caught in his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly, those methods won't work."

But he said this: "if you're caught in his genjutsu he has you instantly, it has nothing to do with whether you can beat genjutsu or not."


Hi no Ishi said:


> He can't keep him for three days if Sasuke breaks out before that point in the genjutsu. This is not complicated.
> 
> You are the one who keeps trying to make "3 day Tsukiyomi" a seperate thing when its really just him playing with your perception of time while you are in Tsukiyomi.
> He simply wasn't able to do that because, like every sourceand person keeps telling you, because Sasuke realized it was a genjutsu and broke out.


I don't think you're getting this. I know that Sasuke broke the genjutsu before 3 days occurred. The reason I'm mentioning it, is because Sasuke wouldn't have the time to break out Tsukuyomi if Itachi increased Sasuke's perception to the point where he perceives 3 days in one second. That was the whole point of what Kakashi said.


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## Sleepless (Jul 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi explicitly said that Kakashi's Sharingan would provide him with some resistance... it did. Then he went on to say an Uchiha with the Sharingan could beat him... Sasuke did.
> 
> Sasuke had stronger chakra than Itachi and a strong enough base Sharingan to resist and overcome Tsukuyomi. The CS2 represented Sasuke's hatred/emotions which Tobirama said increases the Uchiha's strength.
> 
> ...



Ok I'm not denying he broke the Tsukuyomi, yes he did break that weak ass illusion Itachi did. I'm saying that if Itachi had used a more brutal Tsukuyomi then Sasuke wouldn't have broken out. He can literally do what he wants. And even if Sasuke could break out he could put Sasuke in so much pain he wouldn't even think to break out.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 26, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> Ok I'm not denying he broke the Tsukuyomi, yes he did break that weak ass illusion Itachi did. I'm saying that if Itachi had used a more brutal Tsukuyomi then Sasuke wouldn't have broken out. He can literally do what he wants. And even if Sasuke could break out he could put Sasuke in so much pain he wouldn't even think to break out.



There's no evidence Itachi used a weak illusion. Itachi could have used the most brutal Tsukuyomi he could think of and Sasuke would have still broken out because his hatred for Itachi and the desire to see Itachi dead overshadowed any pain he had.

That and he had Indra's chakra, which had barely awakened, a strong base Sharingan and Uchiha blood. 

Excluding Indra's chakra, Sasuke had enough to overcome Tsukuyomi. Including it, it had more than enough. 

Itachi went full force with all jutsu that Sasuke could handle... except Susanoo which Sasuke could not handle.


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## Sleepless (Jul 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There's no evidence Itachi used a weak illusion. Itachi could have used the most brutal Tsukuyomi he could think of and Sasuke would have still broken out because his hatred for Itachi and the desire to see Itachi dead overshadowed any pain he had.
> 
> That and he had Indra's chakra, which had barely awakened, a strong base Sharingan and Uchiha blood.
> 
> ...



It clear he used a weak illusion.
1. The amount of pain Sasuke felt in the illusion was minimal
2. No extreme torture was used
3. No mindfuck
He could've made Sasuke see that he had won after an intense battle then go back to the village and live his life.
In the illusion he controls everything as stated which would include Sasuke's thoughts. He wouldn't even be able to think to get out if Itachi didn't allow it.

I don't even know why you're mentioning Indra because I'm 100% certain it hadn't even been a concept at that time. Indra chakra didn't help him at all when Sasuke has run out of chakra.

Where is all this full force coming from? Itachi wasn't aiming to kill at all. He could've killed Sasuke many times. Think of the genjutsu, while Sasuke was in it he could impale him. Amaterasu, he intentionally didn't hit any of Sasuke's vitals. All Itachi was doing was trying to make Sasuke think he wasn't holding back and drain Sasuke's chakra so he could bring out Orochimaru. Although I'll admit he wasn't expecting Kirin.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 26, 2018)

Trolling said:


> There also the fact that Itachi would have to have the ability to dramatically increase his own perception, if he used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke and he doesn't have that ability.


Head cannon. 

It's like saying if I don't like a movie and leave after 15 minutes, the movie itself wasn't supposed to be two hours. 

It still is, I'm just not there to watch it.

Even if he wanted to play with Sasuke's perception of time, he would not be able to while sasuke was resisting and eventually breaking the genjutsu.


Trolling said:


> Kakashi made a sweeping statement, he didn't just imply they couldn't break it, he implied it can't be beaten due to time dilation. If Kakashi meant that it's just them that couldn't beat it instead of everyone, he could have easily have said this:
> 
> "If you're caught in his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly, those methods won't work."


I'm starting to think you really are just trolling at this point.

He did say that. The methods they just described for breaking out of Tsukiyomi would not work on it. Nor do they have the requirements to break it.

Stop ignoring context to try to override both what Itachi said about it and what we later see happen, are told happens and have confirmed in the data book. 
Things you keep failing to adress.

Why would he tell them anything else about it, when the means to escape is unrelated to them?
Just to waste time?


Trolling said:


> I don't think you're getting this. I know that Sasuke broke the genjutsu before 3 days occurred. The reason I'm mentioning it, is because Sasuke wouldn't have the time to break out Tsukuyomi if Itachi increased Sasuke's perception to the point where he perceives 3 days in one second. That was the whole point


Again no.

Stop conflating the time. 

If they are in Genjutsu they both perceive the three days as normal time as Itachi is also in the genjutsu doing shit to him. During that normal time Sasuke can just break out. 

It would still seem like it only took a second in the real world.


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## Bookworm (Jul 26, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Head cannon.
> 
> It's like saying if I don't like a movie and leave after 15 minutes, the movie itself wasn't supposed to be two hours.
> 
> ...


- lol, It's not like that, your analogy doesn't work.  Does this 2 hour movie take place in a second? Is it an interactive movie in the same way Tsukuyomi is? Does the one showing the movie have the ability to increase your perception dramatically so you can perceive it in 1 second? Did the one showing the movie react to your vastly increase perception? If he did that means he has to increase his own perception dramatically as well. Does this movie take place in a fraction of a fraction a second?

- So you're saying Itachi wasn't able to mess with Sasuke's perception of time?



Hi no Ishi said:


> I'm starting to think you really are just trolling at this point.
> 
> He did say that. The methods they just described for breaking out of Tsukiyomi would not work on it. Nor do they have the requirements to break it.





No he didn't literally say anything like this: "If you're caught in his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly, those methods won't work." If he did, what he said couldn't be taken mean anything other than what you're saying, but I think you know that.


I think *you* are the one who's trolling. Even in the scan you posted, he literally says "...there is *no* cancelling the effects", yet you somehow take it to mean he was only talking about Chiyo and Co.

- It's not unrelated to them, Kakashi stating that let's them know exactly what their dealing with.

- Explain specifically what it is that I said that overrides, what specific statements.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Again no.
> 
> Stop conflating the time.
> 
> ...


Kakashi implied Tsukuyomi couldn't beaten due to its instant nature. If having 3 days in your mind gave you extra time to break out of it, Kakashi wouldn't have said "If he catches you in his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly. It has nothing to do with whether you can defeat genjutsu or not."


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 26, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> It clear he used a weak illusion.
> 1. The amount of pain Sasuke felt in the illusion was minimal
> 2. No extreme torture was used
> 3. No mindfuck
> ...



It isn't clear he used a weak illusion, it is clear he went all out with that illusion.

1. It doesn't matter, he would've still broken out. Also Sasuke losing his main power... no pain, yeah.
2. His eye was removed...
3. His eye was removed....

It doesn't matter because Sasuke's blood and eyes would've resisted and brokent he illusion.

Sasuke's chakra was noted to have greater potential than Itachi during the FoD, which we later learnt was due to him being a transmigrant. 

Itachi wasn't aiming to kill and he could have killed Sasuke at any time *if he used Susanoo*. Amaterasu was countered and Tsukuyomi was countered. He burnt half of Sasuke's body...

Itachi did hold back *he didn't use Susanoo*.


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## Sleepless (Jul 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It isn't clear he used a weak illusion, it is clear he went all out with that illusion.
> 
> 1. It doesn't matter, he would've still broken out. Also Sasuke losing his main power... no pain, yeah.
> 2. His eye was removed...
> ...


1. He wouldn't have broken out if he felt extreme pain because he wouldn't be able to focus on breaking out
2. Uhhhh ok? Compared to being stabbed thousands of times to the point where you are put into an indefinite coma and you need the world's best medical ninja to heal you?
3. That isn't really a notable mindfuck

Wrong, it does matter. If Sasuke cannot think of a way to get out he cannot resist at all. You're acting as if he has automatic resistance when he needs to make a huge effort to break out of the crappy illusion Itachi put him in.

He could've killed Sasuke with Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi/Genjutsu. He didn't burn Sasuke's vitals he just hit his wing. While Sasuke was in the genjutsu at the start he could've left the chair and killed him easily.

Itachi held back because he didn't use his blatant opportunities to kill Sasuke.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 26, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> 1. He wouldn't have broken out if he felt extreme pain because he wouldn't be able to focus on breaking out
> 2. Uhhhh ok? Compared to being stabbed thousands of times to the point where you are put into an indefinite coma and you need the world's best medical ninja to heal you?
> 3. That isn't really a notable mindfuck
> 
> ...



1. Except Sasuke already broke a full power Tsukuyomi; no matter the illusion, he'd break it.
2. Its just an illusion, which Sasuke had the ability to shatter. 
3. Mindfuck or not, Sasuke's ocular power allowed him to see through and break the illusion. 

CS2 forming wouldn't get him out of his scenario, it signified Sasuke overcoming the illusion which would happen every time Itachi would use Tsukuyomi on that version of Sasuke. 

Itachi tried to kill Sasuke with Tsukuyomi, Sasuke trolled it. Itachi tried to harm Sasuke with Amaterasu, Sasuke trolled it. Vitals... he burned *half of Sasuke's body*. 

You're downplaying Sasuke's abilities, especially when he saw through every Genjutsu and was countering with his own illusions.

The only way Itachi held back was Susanoo, the one jutsu Itachi used in the battle which didn't attack Sasuke.

It probably bothers Itachi fans, but the only differentiate between Hebi Sasuke and Itachi was Susanoo.


----------



## Sleepless (Jul 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. Except Sasuke already broke a full power Tsukuyomi; no matter the illusion, he'd break it.
> 2. Its just an illusion, which Sasuke had the ability to shatter.
> 3. Mindfuck or not, Sasuke's ocular power allowed him to see through and break the illusion.
> 
> ...



1. Again you haven't address the point of Sasuke having to concentrate and use his ocular powers to the fullest to break Tsukuyomi. If he's getting tortured and feeling extreme pain he isn't going to be able to break out because he wouldn't be in the right mind.
2. Again you still haven't address the fact that in Tsukuyomi Itachi controls everything. So if he didn't want Sasuke to even think of breaking out it would happen and as I said before there's no automatic breakout Sasuke himself has to break out.
3. Mindfuck means he wouldn't be in the right mind to break out. So again he cannot break out if Itachi uses a brutal Tsukuyomi

Itachi didn't try to kill Sasuke with the Tsukuyomi. Itachi only put amaterasu on Sasuke's wing. I did a quick search and I did not see half his body engulfed in the flames.

At the start of the fight Sasuke was under genjutsu the whole time and although he saw through it in the end he was still vulnerable while in it which is why I said Itachi could've beaten him using genjutsu.

I'm not underestimating Sasuke's abilities but I'm making it clear that with a sinister Tsukuyomi he could've beaten Sasuke. Sasuke wouldn't break it. 

No. The whole MS which Itachi held back heavily on was the difference of the fight. Firstly he holds back on the Tsukuyomi, then Amaterasu then finally after Sasuke has literally no chakra left he brings out Susanoo to seal Orochimaru. 
I'm not an Itachi fan btw.


----------



## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 26, 2018)

Apparently the only counter argument is Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke ( obviously ), so it automatically deflates all of Sasuke’s fears in the fight.
He didn't hold back in part 1 with the Tsukuyomi  but he does in their destined confrontation.
Itachi didn't want to kill does not mean he did not want to push sasuke's shit to the limit.
And no one is an itachi fan here.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 26, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - lol, It's not like that, your analogy doesn't work. Does this 2 hour movie take place in a second? Is it an interactive movie in the same way Tsukuyomi is? Does the one showing the movie have the ability to increase your perception dramatically so you can perceive it in 1 second? Did the one showing the movie react to your vastly increase perception? If he did that means he has to increase his own perception dramatically as well. Does this movie take place in a fraction of a fraction a second?
> 
> - So you're saying Itachi wasn't able to mess with Sasuke's perception of time?


No it works just fine.

Itachi has an interactive movie to show.
The movie covers three days.
Sasuke watches some of the movie and leaves.
Kakashi, not having the requirements to do shit about it, has to stay and watch the movie. 

Regardless to the outside world the movie only takes a second to watch.


Trolling said:


> No he didn't literally say anything like this: "If you're caught in his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly, those methods won't work." If he did, what he said couldn't be taken mean anything other than what you're saying, but I think you know that.
> 
> 
> I think *you* are the one who's trolling. Even in the scan you posted, he literally says "...there is *no* cancelling the effects", yet you somehow take it to mean he was only talking about Chiyo and Co.


Read the dang chapter please. He is telling them that the methods they just described will not work. A thing we knew already. 
What the Hell does this have to do with how Sasuke got out?

Nothing.


Trolling said:


> - It's not unrelated to them, Kakashi stating that let's them know exactly what their dealing with


Explain to me in what way having a Sharingan and Itachi's blood is related to them. 
They don't have it and thus his statement is true.  There is no canceling the effect
For them.

Not Sasuke.


Trolling said:


> Kakashi implied Tsukuyomi couldn't beaten due to its instant nature. If having 3 days in your mind gave you extra time to break out of it, Kakashi wouldn't have said "If he catches you in his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly. It has nothing to do with whether you can defeat genjutsu or not."


That's because that's true for Kakashi. 
Because he does not get a chance to escape unlike Sasuke.


----------



## MSAL (Jul 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If he used the CS2, you would have seen it when the illusion broke. The CS2 represented his will to fight back. Had he lacked the CS2, then we'd have seen something else e.g. Susanoo if he had the MS.




We've been down this road before Bri.

Call it what you want, physical, mental manifestation, whatever, it was clear he was drawing upon the power of the cursed seal to aid his escape.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 27, 2018)

@Trolling 
1) Chapter 142  
We are flat out told that the two things Sasuke has would allow him to defeat the jutsu 

Please tell us how this is unclear?

2) we are flat out told he broke out and why he was not really hurt by it. 

*Spoiler*: __ 








How is this unclear? Please address what Zetsu is saying 

3) we are told that it's quite plausible and normal for Sasuke to get out of Tsukiyomi if he is simply better than Itachi with the Sharingan. 


4. The DB pointing an arrow at the picture of the Illusion being broken when it says Sasuke defeated the MS. 

Please explain what you think they are telling you given what happened in the chapters they reference?


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 27, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> @Trolling
> 1) Chapter 142
> We are flat out told that the two things Sasuke has would allow him to defeat the jutsu
> 
> ...


Black Zetsu blatantly confirms if hit by Tsukiyomi, it's the end. "He didn't get hit by it..." implies he never thought Tsukiyomi can be broken. He couldn't give a valid explanation to Zetsu, so he said a vague dialogue as "He overcame it.." which doesn't make an iota of sense.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 27, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Black Zetsu blatantly confirms if hit by Tsukiyomi, it's the end. "He didn't get hit by it..." implies he never thought Tsukiyomi can be broken. He couldn't give a valid explanation to Zetsu, so he said a vague dialogue as "He overcame it.." which doesn't make an iota of sense.


If Sasuke was a normal person that would be true. But since he has the means to break out and they said he did repeatedly from multiple sources. It makes perfect sense.


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 27, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> If Sasuke was a normal person that would be true. But since he has the means to break out and they said he did repeatedly from multiple sources. It makes perfect sense.


You're saying Sasuke is a better shinobi than Hagoromo? Cause Zetsu lived in his time-age, and still thought Tsukiyomi was unbreakable.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 27, 2018)

Sage light said:


> You're saying Sasuke is a better shinobi than Hagoromo? Cause Zetsu lived in his time-age, and still thought Tsukiyomi was unbreakable.


And Zetsu also said he broke out, repeatedly in the scans of the post you quoted. 

Why do you not believe him then?

Are _you_ saying he does not know what he is talking about?


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 27, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> And Zetsu also said he broke out, repeatedly in the scans of the post you quoted.
> 
> Why do you not believe him then?
> 
> Are _you_ saying he does not know what he is talking about?


Because it doesn't match with what he said prior.

"He didn't get hit by it..." then "he overcame it.." what kind of contradictory speech is that?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 27, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> 1. Again you haven't address the point of Sasuke having to concentrate and use his ocular powers to the fullest to break Tsukuyomi. If he's getting tortured and feeling extreme pain he isn't going to be able to break out because he wouldn't be in the right mind.
> 2. Again you still haven't address the fact that in Tsukuyomi Itachi controls everything. So if he didn't want Sasuke to even think of breaking out it would happen and as I said before there's no automatic breakout Sasuke himself has to break out.
> 3. Mindfuck means he wouldn't be in the right mind to break out. So again he cannot break out if Itachi uses a brutal Tsukuyomi
> 
> ...



1-4: doesn't matter, Sasuke was good enough to break Tsukuyomi. So nothing Itachi could have done with the illusion would have worked. 

Itachi went all out with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, those jutsu where used with the intent to end things. As to why Amaterasu didn't hit vitals? Itachi wasn't quick enough to keep up with CS enhanced Sasuke; he fell for the trap Sasuke wanted (hitting the CS2 wing). 

Sasuke was aware and used his own Genjutsu. If Itachi physically tried to attack Sasuke while the Genjutsu was going on, Sasuke would've seen through it and ocuntered. 

You're severely underestimating Sasuke's abilities, namely the fact he *prepared *to battle Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi for almost 3 years. You're also ignoring Itachi who sincerely believe the only reason Sasuke wouldn't kill him was because his brother lacked the MS; hence Itachi didn't use the MS' greatest tool, Susanoo. 

Except we saw Itachi go all out with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. We can obviously assume that *the one jutsu which didn't attack Sasuke *was the one Itachi was holding back.



MSAL said:


> We've been down this road before Bri.
> 
> Call it what you want, physical, mental manifestation, whatever, it was clear he was drawing upon the power of the cursed seal to aid his escape.



It isn't "clear" that he was drawing on the power of the CS, otherwise we would have seen the CS in "real time". In the illusion, Itachi can make whatever he wants appear; Sasuke's resistance was so strong that he was able to manifest things in the illusion e.g. his CS and eventually the illusion's collapse.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 27, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Because it doesn't match with what he said prior.
> 
> "He didn't get hit by it..." then "he overcame it.." what kind of contradictory speech is that?


He did not take damage from the Tsukiyomi because he overcame it.

Zetsu is clearly explaining why Sasuke isn't knocked out. 

And since we have zetsu directly saying that he "overcame tsukiyomi making other genjutsu pointless" After this, how many times exactly does the author have to beat you over the head with it, my friend ?


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 27, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He did not take damage from the Tsukiyomi because he overcame it.
> 
> Zetsu is clearly explaining why Sasuke isn't knocked out.
> 
> And since we have zetsu directly saying that he "overcame tsukiyomi making other genjutsu pointless" After this, how many times exactly does the author have to beat you over the head with it, my friend ?


Why wasn't he knocked out? Zetsu's words sounded like, it was impossible to not get knocked out, after being hit by it. One can't simply overcome the Genjutsu, that's rubbish. When Hagoromo theoretically can't.


----------



## Sleepless (Jul 27, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1-4: doesn't matter


Yeah I'm not discussing this anymore I haven't got the time to keep re-posting points you haven't debunked.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 27, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> Yeah I'm not discussing this anymore I haven't got the time to keep re-posting points you haven't debunked.



You're the one going against an established point, and your evidence for why Itachi held back Tsukuyomi is weak at best.


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 27, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> Yeah I'm not discussing this anymore I haven't got the time to keep re-posting points you haven't debunked.


It'd be better for you to not engage that guy on anything Itachi-related. He even thinks Sasuke awakened Amaterasu, that's how far his fanfic goes.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 27, 2018)

Sage light said:


> He even thinks Sasuke awakened Amaterasu, that's how far his fanfic goes.



@EmperorRorepme 

This is who you agree with. 

@Cosmos @Kai @Shark Sasuke didn't awaken Amaterasu.


----------



## Android (Jul 27, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> @Cosmos @Kai @Shark Sasuke didn't awaken Amaterasu.


Huh?

If he didn't awake Amaterasu, and Kagutsuchi was something he "created" then what are his MS abilities ?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 27, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> Huh?
> 
> If he didn't awake Amaterasu, and Kagutsuchi was something he "created" then what are his MS abilities ?



Apparently Itachi gifted Sasuke the Amaterasu.


----------



## Android (Jul 27, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Apparently Itachi gifted Sasuke the Amaterasu.


You mean the single Amaterasu shot he implanted in Sasuke to use against Obito.


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## Sleepless (Jul 27, 2018)

Sage light said:


> It'd be better for you to not engage that guy on anything Itachi-related. He even thinks Sasuke awakened Amaterasu, that's how far his fanfic goes.


Uhhh, I don't agree with the guy on this matter but don't you think it would be illogical for Sasuke to have 1 of the 3 Mangekyo abilities to control the shape of Amaterasu without having it himself? 1 of his abilities is Amaterasu, 1 was Blaze Release and the last one is universally Susanoo. 
Itachi implanted Amaterasu in Sasuke as a 1 time thing to stop Obito from uhhh I don't really remember I think it was corrupting Sasuke or telling him the truth so he wouldn't attack the leaf village most likely the latter.


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 27, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> Uhhh, I don't agree with the guy on this matter but don't you think it would be illogical for Sasuke to have 1 of the 3 Mangekyo abilities to control the shape of Amaterasu without having it himself? 1 of his abilities is Amaterasu, 1 was Blaze Release and the last one is universally Susanoo.
> Itachi implanted Amaterasu in Sasuke as a 1 time thing to stop Obito from uhhh I don't really remember I think it was corrupting Sasuke or telling him the truth so he wouldn't attack the leaf village most likely the latter.


Tobi brought up Amaterasu in his conversation with Pain and on how he sealed his ocular power in his eyes. The attention of the matter was given to him, not to Sasuke. No one praised him for awakening it.


----------



## Sleepless (Jul 27, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Tobi brought up Amaterasu in his conversation with Pain and on how he sealed his ocular power in his eyes. The attention of the matter was given to him, not to Sasuke. No one praised him for awakening it.



So you're saying Obito said that Itachi GAVE the power to Sasuke by sealing it in his eye? If this is true then his 2nd MS ability doesn't make sense. Although I can interpret it differently: 
Obito told Pain that Itachi had tried to kill him by sealing Amaterasu in his eye to attempt to kill him preventing the truth of Itachi being revealed. I remember vaguely something like this (haven't read Naruto in a while) and not the one you're trying to describe. A few scenes of this conversion or a video would be appreciated although I'd prefer manga because it's more authentic.


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 27, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> So you're saying Obito said that Itachi GAVE the power to Sasuke by sealing it in his eye? If this is true then his 2nd MS ability doesn't make sense. Although I can interpret it differently:
> Obito told Pain that Itachi had tried to kill him by sealing Amaterasu in his eye to attempt to kill him preventing the truth of Itachi being revealed. I remember vaguely something like this (haven't read Naruto in a while) and not the one you're trying to describe. A few scenes of this conversion or a video would be appreciated although I'd prefer manga because it's more authentic.


He


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 27, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Why wasn't he knocked out? Zetsu's words sounded like, it was impossible to not get knocked out, after being hit by it. One can't simply overcome the Genjutsu, that's rubbish. When Hagoromo theoretically can't.


He wasn't knocked out because he resisted it.
 It's not unclear at all, unless you just cherry pick that one line and ignore everything else. 

No one brought up Hagaromo but you btw. He was barely in the story at that point so that's also clearly a false equivalence.

What's really rubbish though, is you trying to hold up Black Zetsu as an infallible witness, and then disagreeing with him when it does not fit your arguments even though he says it happened multiple times.


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 28, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He wasn't knocked out because he resisted it.
> It's not unclear at all, unless you just cherry pick that one line and ignore everything else.
> 
> No one brought up Hagaromo but you btw. He was barely in the story at that point so that's also clearly a false equivalence.
> ...


How did he no*t get knocked instantly after getting hit by the illusion? Why was Zetsu surprised he never got knocked out. How come Hagoromo who was a thing at that point wasn't seen capable of breaking the illusion like Sasuke but somehow magically he broke it? The only real fact is he couldn't resist it before it hits. You can't resist a chain before it attaches you. Use your common sense, bud.*


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 28, 2018)

Sage light said:


> How did he no*t get knocked instantly after getting hit by the illusion?*


Because he resisted. A thing he has the requirements to do, as you have known since chapter 142.


Sage light said:


> Why was Zetsu surprised he never got knocked out


Because having the requirements does not mean you have the skill to use them. Sasuke was just very skilled. As black Zetsu also explains in the scans I posted. 

Please stop ignoring them.


Sage light said:


> How come Hagoromo who was a thing at that point wasn't seen capable of breaking the illusion like Sasuke but somehow magically he broke it?


A) he wasn't seen doing anything battle wise at this point so how would this even be a thing lol?

B) who the Hell would have been casting Tsukiyomi on him anyway?

Try answering the questions there, instead of coming up with more false equivalence, please.



Sage light said:


> The only real fact is he couldn't resist it before it hits.


 no there are several facts. 

Fact one, black zetsu out says that Sasuke broke it. Repeatedly and quite clearly he says this.

 Fact 2, You keep trying to cherry-pick one line to ignore him flat out saying that he overcame the Jutsu and you keep refusing to address this because you know exactly what you're doing.

Fact 3 we have known that Sasuke has the requirements a bloody decade or more before he breaks out, making a clear case of foreshadowing and payoff a common narrative trope.

 Fact 4 you brought up black zetsu but are now trying to argue with him.
 since he knows  so much about tsukiyomi and knows it was broken what exactly is the problem besides the fact that it no longer agrees with you like you once thought he did.

Fact 5, odd syntax from a translated language does not override the fact that they are telling you a thing repeatedly making it quite clear what they mean.


Sage light said:


> You can't resist a chain before it attaches you.


You can damn well slap the chain away, yes the chain still hit you but it doesn't mean it hurts you are at all or did anything to you.


Sage light said:


> Use your common sense, bud.


I, like most people who read the manga and answered this thread, am using common sense.

If the manga and Databook repeatedly say something then that's what happened. Common sense. Easy.

He broke out.


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 28, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Because he resisted. A thing he has the requirements to do, as you have known since chapter 142.



Resisted how?



> Because having the requirements does not mean you have the skill to use them. Sasuke was just very skilled. As black Zetsu also explains in the scans I posted.





> Please stop ignoring them.



Sasuke wasn't very skilled. Zetsu knew the jutsu can't be broken and that's all it matters.



> A) he wasn't seen doing anything battle wise at this point so how would this even be a thing lol?


You mean the same Zetsu knowing Hagoromo's feats?


> B) who the Hell would have been casting Tsukiyomi on him anyway


Doesn't matter. By the law of the technique it cannot be broken. Zetsu knew that.



> Try answering the questions there, instead of coming up with more false equivalence, please.


I'm using facts. The page blatantly states he didn't get hit by it.



> no there are several facts.
> 
> Fact one, black zetsu out says that Sasuke broke it. Repeatedly and quite clearly he says this.
> 
> ...





> You can damn well slap the chain away, yes the chain still hit you but it doesn't mean it hurts you are at all or did anything to you.
> 
> I, like most people who read the manga and answered this thread, am using common sense.
> 
> ...


He says he didn't get hit by it. Let alone break it. Blood doing something to Tsukiyomi is something you've to explain. He wasn't extremely skilled. An unbreakable genjutsu was what was in Zetsu's mind. You can't resist a chain before it binds. We clearly see him getting caught. Getting caught yet he somehow still was fine. Zetsu came to a conclusion he did not get hit. Since he knew thier's no twisting back from Tsukiyomi once caught.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 28, 2018)

Android said:


> You mean the single Amaterasu shot he implanted in Sasuke to use against Obito.



Yes, apparently that became the Amaterasu Sasuke used... ignoring the eye patterns, of course.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 28, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Resisted how?
> 
> Sasuke wasn't very skilled. Zetsu knew the jutsu can't be broken and that's all it matters.
> 
> ...


Lol this is crazy.


What does black Zetsu say Sasuke did here?

Why does your opinion outweigh this?


You say Sasuke wasn't skilled now? 

Well the databook disagrees and also says he defeated the Mangekyo while showing Tsukiyomi being broken from chapter 388
 why do you think your opinion counts more than both the manga and DB?

Why do you keep saying that by the laws of the jutsu it can't be broken, when the requirements to break it were given at the same time the jutsu was named?

Why do you think your opinion out weighs what Itachi says about his own jutsu?


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 28, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Lol this is crazy.
> 
> 
> What does black Zetsu say Sasuke did here?
> ...


Databook is irrelevant in this case. You know why. Because it blatantly makes a rigid statement on what we know is the most controversial some-how in the manga. It doesn't have the authority on giving a verdict on something blatantly stated to not hit the target that was Sasuke. Notice the fact he keeps his stance mentioning "overcoming" again. Why'dn't he blatantly say he broke it had he truly pulled off the break? He sounds confused.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 28, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Databook is irrelevant in this case. You know why. Because it blatantly makes a rigid statement on what we know is the most controversial some-how in the manga. It doesn't have the authority on giving a verdict on something blatantly stated to not hit the target that was Sasuke. Notice the fact he keeps his stance mentioning "overcoming" again. Why'dn't he blatantly say he broke it had he truly pulled off the break? He sounds confused.


So it does not count because it's a direct statement, but and Zetsu saying repeating that he got out and explaining it is too vague? 

You are the only one who sounds confused.

For the audience they even explain more on how Sasuke's skills got him out the jutsu
 So you, like Zetsu said, are merely underestimating Sasuke.


And just for people like yourself who need have it said over and over...


Zetsu says a fucking THIRD time that Sasuke got out of it.

So again your opinion does not outweigh, several manga statements AND the databook just because you don't like what it means.


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 28, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> So it does not count because it's a direct statement, but and Zetsu saying repeating that he got out and explaining it is too vague?
> 
> You are the only one who sounds confused.
> 
> ...


He says again "escaping" Tsukiyomi not breaking. Clear cut. He blatantly stays with his stance of previously stating he didn't break out of it. Escaping isn't an issue when we know he believed it cannot be broken. The fact the man stays with his stance should disaprove further speculation correct? And we know of what it's capable of enough to stabilize the fact he couldn't surpass the illusion. At that point of time when he was less skilled.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 28, 2018)

Sage light said:


> He says again "escaping" Tsukiyomi not breaking. Clear cut. He blatantly stays with his stance of previously stating he didn't break out of it. Escaping isn't an issue when we know he believed it cannot be broken. The fact the man stays with his stance should disaprove further speculation correct? And we know of what it's capable of enough to stabilize the fact he couldn't surpass the illusion. At that point of time when he was less skilled.


Again this manga is translated from another language. Hinging your while arguments on semantics is nonsense.

We know Sasuke got caught and we know he over came it. 

And now you are flat out lying by saying that 


Sage light said:


> He blatantly stays with his stance of previously stating he didn't break out of it.


When it clearly says the opposite of that.

You are simply wrong. 
 He never says Sasuke can't escape, and says several times that he escaped and overcame the jutsu.

There is nothing to be confused about, at all, so stop trying to twist an odd translation of one line while ignoring several statements and the DB. 

Provide proof like I have and not just your speculation or drop it.


----------



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 28, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Again this manga is translated from another language. Hinging your while arguments on semantics is nonsense.
> 
> We know Sasuke got caught and we know he over came it.


 
That doesn't change the fact multiple translations say the same exact line of oddity does it?


> And now you are flat out lying by saying that


I copy pasted what your scan said.


> When it clearly says the opposite of that.


It says what I says. It doesn't say he broke it. Just escaped it which's vague.


> You are simply wrong.
> He never says Sasuke can't escape, and says several times that he escaped and overcame the jutsu.


Overcame *without being hit* as I bolded that part. Both are different, escaping and overcoming compared to "breaking".


> There is nothing to be confused about, at all, so stop trying to twist an odd translation of one line while ignoring several statements and the DB.


DB is irrelevant. It blatantly discards context provided in the manga. Him not being hit is nowhere stated in the DB.


> Provide proof like I have and not just your speculation or drop it.


The proof is in your scans so I don't need to provide additional.


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## Baroxio (Jul 29, 2018)

The pages are sequential. Sasuke brings up the times he narrowly avoided death as proof that Obito is lying about his brother wanting to protect him. Obito refutes these points by stating that Itachi's goal was never to kill Sasuke, but to push him to the edge so as to separate him from Orochimaru. He finishes with the idea that every part of their battle was planned out by Itachi.

Pretty hard to believe Itachi was serious when we know for a fact that he had zero killing intent going into this battle. Itachi _needed _Tsukyomi to be broken for his plan to work. Just like he _needed _Sasuke to escape Amaterasu (and didn't just fry him the first time he usee it to snuff out Sasuke's CS2 fireball). To argue otherwise would be to say that Itachi wanted to kill Sasuke, which we know for a fact certainly was not true.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 29, 2018)

Nah Sasuke just broke it, sorry.

But it’s likely that Itachi anticipated Sasuke surviving Tsukuyomi since Kakashi managed to. In that sense, he was going all out with a technique he knew wouldn’t be enough to kill his brother.


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## The_Conqueror (Jul 29, 2018)

I am pretty certain that Sasuke had Itachis MS pattern when he used amatetasu on obito(implanted) .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2018)

Baroxio said:


> The pages are sequential. Sasuke brings up the times he narrowly avoided death as proof that Obito is lying about his brother wanting to protect him. Obito refutes these points by stating that Itachi's goal was never to kill Sasuke, but to push him to the edge so as to separate him from Orochimaru. He finishes with the idea that every part of their battle was planned out by Itachi.
> 
> Pretty hard to believe Itachi was serious when we know for a fact that he had zero killing intent going into this battle. Itachi _needed _Tsukyomi to be broken for his plan to work. Just like he _needed _Sasuke to escape Amaterasu (and didn't just fry him the first time he usee it to snuff out Sasuke's CS2 fireball). To argue otherwise would be to say that Itachi wanted to kill Sasuke, which we know for a fact certainly was not true.



Those pages indicate that Itachi didn't go all out on Sasuke and that Sasuke believed Itachi went all out based on Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu being used to try and kill him... notice which jutsu was left out? The jutsu that Itachi used to separate Oro from Sasuke and the one we later learnt is a big game changer with MS users, Susanoo. 

Tobi said Sasuke was pushed to the edge, not Itachi held back every single jutsu he used. Other translations have it as Sasuke was hit with no more than he could handle. Itachi was serious, until he wasn't: that was when Susanoo was used. 

Read the manga beyond that chapter and you'll see how big of a difference Susanoo makes then read the chapters Edo Itachi appeared and look at his Susanoo skill, the skills he possessed which he could have used to stomp Sasuke. 

Though, Itachi fans would prefer misinterpreting things to make it seem like Itachi was insanely powerful as opposed to believing one jutus could change things i.e. if not for Susanoo, then Hebi Sasuke would be superior to Itachi.


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