# Charizard vs Blastoise vs Venusaur



## swandiveLmeistr (Mar 31, 2014)

It's that time again....

This is coming from a Pokemon newb too so maybe this has already been decided.

Anyways, in a battle royale, who wins?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 31, 2014)

someone just did this, in the end most people chose Blastoise because it has the highest chance of defeating what it's weak against by using ice attacks


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## megaman12321 (Mar 31, 2014)

Yeah, Venasaur was pretty much a non-factor, so it was between Blastoise and Charizard.


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## Xiammes (Mar 31, 2014)

Mega Evolutions?

Mega Venusaur resists water and is neutral to fire and ice, it can hit Mega Charizard X with a Earthquake and inflict some massive damage with sludge bomb to Mega Charizard Y.

Mega Blastoise can't hit Mega Veunsaur for super effective damage, and it can only hit Mega Charizard Y for super effective damage. Mega Charizard X is neutral to water stab.

Mega Charizard Y can only hit Mega Venusarus with super effective damage if he uses a flying move, Mega Charizard X can only use dragon attacks against Mega Blastoise.


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

Actually, type matchup aside, Venusaur lacks the effective long range offense to deal with either of the other pokemon before it gets knocked out. Once the battle comes down to Charizard vs Blastoise, Charizard can't close in on Blastoise without receiving heavy damage, so it's just a stall until Charizard runs out of energy from flying and dodging, at which point he gets hydro pumped.


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Actually, type matchup aside, Venusaur lacks the effective long range offense to deal with either of the other pokemon before it gets knocked out.



Why? Sludge Bomb, Leaf Storm, Petal Dance, Solar Beam, Frenzy Plant, a vast myriad of other moves at Venasaur's disposal...none of these has explicitly shorter range than shit like Hydro Pump and Fire Blast.


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## Linkofone (Mar 31, 2014)

Is this using game mechanics?


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## Totally not a cat (Mar 31, 2014)

And don't even get me started with spores, leech seed and synthesis. Venusaur is extremely resilient.


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

Sludge Bomb is relatively useless, Solarbeam requires charge time, Petal Dance is a contact move, and if Venusaur uses Leaf Storm or Frenzy Plant and doesn't one shot Blasoise(which is doubtful), then it definitely loses. Incidentally, even if it does, assuming Charizard hasn't already roasted Venusaur from the start of the match, it now gets an unquantifiable amount of time to do so, since Venusaur either won't be doing damage with the spec.atk drop, or won't be moving at all.


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2014)

Yeah, I don't get where this Venusaur is useless stuff comes from. They're all portrayed on rather equal standing with each other. Only reason I can think of is that Oak describes Charizard as the hardest to train but the most rewarding or whatever. None of this game mechanic crap.


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Sludge Bomb is relatively useless,


Because you say so?



> Solarbeam requires charge time,


Like Bulbasaur had to charge for a significant time against Machamp in the first movie? Like Venusaur isn't bulky enough to take hits while charging?



> Petal Dance is a contact move,


Petal Dance is special.



> and if Venusaur uses Leaf Storm or Frenzy Plant and doesn't one shot Blasoise(which is doubtful), then it definitely loses.


Why does it need to one-shot to do anything in this match?



> Incidentally, even if it does, assuming Charizard hasn't already roasted Venusaur from the start of the match,


If you're gonna go by game mechanics, then tell that to Thick Fat Mega Venusaur.



> it now gets an unquantifiable amount of time to do so, since Venusaur either won't be doing damage with the spec.atk drop, or won't be moving at all.


It's slow, not inept. Might as well write off Machamp, Tyranitar, Steelix, Metagross, Mamoswine, et cetera while you're at it.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 31, 2014)

That being said Venusaur in its base form is the strongest in competitive battling. Chlorophyll + Sun and it rapes everything. Like I said above in general Blastoise wins (Megas aside)


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

)
Petal Dance is a special move that requires contact, which is why it can still be affected by flame body, static, etc. 

Bulbasaur's Solarbeam took a second to charge, and required direct sunlight, one of which is conditional and the other of which Venusaur will not have the luxury of receiving before it eats fire blast/spin. Venusaur is bulky, but don't tell me it can baste in 3000 degree heat for several seconds with no reprecussions

Actually, game mechanics says Venusaur is as fast as Charizard, but literally everything else says otherwise. Whether Thick Fat is a game mechanic or not is still unproven, although it's unlikely.

Whether it's slow or not hardly matters, Frenzy plant specifically requires a rest period, only pseudo legendaries can get away with spamming Hyper beam variants


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> )
> Petal Dance is a special move that requires contact, which is why it can still be affected by flame body, static, etc.


That's fair 



> Bulbasaur's Solarbeam took a second to charge, and required direct sunlight, one of which is conditional and the other of which Venusaur will not have the luxury of receiving before it eats fire blast/spin. Venusaur is bulky, but don't tell me it can baste in 3000 degree heat for several seconds with no reprecussions


A second relative to whom? With what we know about Pokeverse's speed, Solarbeam would become virtually useless if it took that long. We know that it's not.

You're acting as if Venusaur will invariably be helpless against any of Charizard's attacks. Why? Venusaur has the reactions to keep up with its peers and the means to defend itself.

And how the hell do you know how much heat Venusaur can take? It's not a normal plant. It's a Pokemon. Sure it won't appreciate a Fire Blast...the same way the other starters won't appreciate any potent move from the opposition.



> Actually, game mechanics says Venusaur is as fast as Charizard, but literally everything else says otherwise. Whether Thick Fat is a game mechanic or not is still unproven, although it's unlikely.


Thick Fat has the capacity to exists naturally, though, unlike some other abilities. And you can't just use game mechanics when they suit you.



> Whether it's slow or not hardly matters, Frenzy plant specifically requires a rest period, only pseudo legendaries can get away with spamming Hyper beam variants


Why does it need to spam attacks? You keep talking about how bad its attacks are (they're not), but it has so many saboteur and synergistic techniques in its arsenal that it's a formidable combatant in its own right. Not everything here is blitz the fuck out of the opponent and blow them up or you lose.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 31, 2014)

Charizard beats Venusaur beats Blastoise beats Charizard.

Duh.

Whoever realizes this first and goes pure defense/evasion until the one it's strong against has taken down the one it's weak against will win.


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

Every anime appearance with Venusaur in it involves it having to tank attacks due to Solarbeams charge time( against tauros, swellow, heracross, cyndaquil), although it's worth noting the latter two were KO'd instantly afterwards, which makes the attack ridiculously powerful. It's also worth noting that Venusaur has the fastest attack speed out of the starters. It's not a bad pokemon; it just has no effective means of dealing with a Charizard. before the inevitable roasting. Rain Dance would also drive the chance of winning highly in blastoise's favor, enough so that Venusaur has next to no useful moves left. Venusaur would still win in a one vs one, though, mostly since Blastoise lacks the offense to put it down before the solarbeam

As far as saboteur moves go, those are really much more effective in a one vs one


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## Lurko (Mar 31, 2014)

I say charizard due to flight advantage but blastoise comes in second.


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Every anime appearance with Venusaur in it involves it having to tank attacks due to Solarbeams charge time( against tauros, swellow, heracross, cyndaquil), although it's worth noting the latter two were KO'd instantly afterwards, which makes the attack ridiculously powerful. It's also worth noting that Venusaur has the fastest attack speed out of the starters.


Okay...



> It's not a bad pokemon; it just has no effective means of dealing with a Charizard. before the inevitable roasting. Rain Dance would also drive the chance of winning highly in blastoise's favor, enough so that Venusaur has next to no useful moves left. Venusaur would still win in a one vs one, though, mostly since Blastoise lacks the offense to put it down before the solarbeam


I think you misunderstood something. I wasn't arguing that Venusaur would take Charizard. I just don't see how anyone is going to consider it a non-factor among its peers. I can deal some heavy damage to Blastoise which directly affects how well Charizard does in this thread, it's got very respectable capacity as a tank, it can counter Rain Dance with its own weather move, it has a myriad of options for status, et cetera, et cetera.

My point wasn't that it'd win. My point was explaining its worth, which you seem to agree with.





> As far as saboteur moves go, those are really much more effective in a one vs one


Why not? Nothing here will appreciate being poisoned/paralyzed/put to sleep.


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## Xiammes (Mar 31, 2014)

Thick fat shouldn't be disregarded as game mechanics, its ability that removes Mega Venusaurs fire and ice weaknessm. No ability should be disregarded imo, but most are unquantifiable. 

Sludgebomb is going to hit very hard against Charizard, and Blastoise is leech seed/gigadrain bait. Venusaur is very much in contention with this fight, Venusaur is more then bulkly enough to survive a fire blast, the same can't be said for Charizard being hit with a hydro pump.


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2014)

That's another thing; Venusaur is the only one here with access to several methods of instant recovery.


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## Totally not a cat (Mar 31, 2014)

First of all, Petal dance doesn't really involve contact outside of game mechanics, it's a sebonsakura kind of thing


Then we have Venusaur's spore and seed attacks which can turn the zone into a No-flight area, like jumpluff did in the manga


Venusaur isn't winning any race but it's reaction speed is just as good as it's peers, and it gets advantage from status and seed moves, then theres synthesis abuse and if is MegaZardY is here then it only further boosts Synthesis, Solar beam and Growth.

Venusaur isn't losing unless they gang up on him from the very begining.


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> No ability should be disregarded imo, but most are unquantifiable.



Certain abilities just don't make sense. Solar Power is great as a game mechanic, but the idea that  a species of fire lizards can't be exposed to sunlight without dying is a little far fetched. Likewise, Shadow tag is an ability that only makes sense from a game perspective.


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## Hyperion1O1 (Mar 31, 2014)

Solar Power+Sunny Day+Belly Drum

RAAWWWR


*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, I am a Charizard lover


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## Regicide (Mar 31, 2014)

Charizard is overrated.


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Venusaur isn't losing unless they gang up on him from the very begining.



Venusaur is not beating a Charizard. Unless Venusaur can instantly put Charizard down, there is nothing to stop Charizard form turning the entire battlefield into molten slag. Also, if we're using the manga here, remember drought was hot enough to instantly evaporate trees. Venusaur might not die, but there will definitely not be spores anywhere on that battlefield


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## Hyperion1O1 (Mar 31, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Charizard is overrated.



You take that back


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 31, 2014)

Mega Venusaur would win, but that's not the argument here. Also Groudon drought =/= Charizard Y drought, you can't really compare the two


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## Xiammes (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Certain abilities just don't make sense. Solar Power is great as a game mechanic, but the idea that  a species of fire lizards can't be exposed to sunlight without dying is a little far fetched. Likewise, Shadow tag is an ability that only makes sense from a game perspective.



The idea is that it is over charging.



> Venusaur is not beating a Charizard.



 What is sleep powder? Venusaur has nothing to fear from Blastoise, especially after it leech seeds the sleeping Charizard. It will take a 2vs1 to take Venusaur down, sleep powder, still gives it a chance.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 31, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> What is sleep powder? Venusaur has nothing to fear from Blastoise, especially after it leech seeds the sleeping Charizard. It will take a 2vs1 to take Venusaur down, sleep powder, still gives it a chance.



Sleep Powder isn't very accurate and if it focuses on Charizard for two turns Blastoise can just use Yawn


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

Except Sleep Powder doesn't spread instantly, and certainly not fast enough to the point where it can't burned out or blown away. Air advantage makes this worse; Charizard flies out of range and nukes the battlefield into glass.
Also heat wave for days.


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> *Unless Venusaur can instantly put Charizard down*, there is nothing to stop Charizard form turning the entire battlefield into molten slag.



You keep acting like it has to. Attrition is a hugely effective strategy, especially with Venusaur's proclivity for it. You also act like Blastoise isn't even in this thread and won't occupy Charizard in the slightest. The biggest obstacle for Venusaur is Charizard's flight, not its firepower.

And Venusaur also has access to Grass Whistle, IIRC.


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## Regicide (Mar 31, 2014)

Hyperion1O1 said:


> You take that back


Just saying it like it is.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 31, 2014)

SuperTacocat said:


> You keep acting like it needs to instantly win. Attrition is a hugely effective strategy, especially with Venusaur's proclivity for it. You also act like Blastoise isn't even in this thread and won't spell trouble for Charizard. The biggest obstacle for Venusaur in this thread is Charizard's flight, not its firepower.
> 
> And Venusaur also has access to Grass Whistle, IIRC.



sleep powder > grasswhistle because it's accuracy isn't as shitty.


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

SuperTacocat said:


> You also act like Blastoise isn't even in this thread and won't spell trouble for Charizard. The biggest obstacle for Venusaur in this thread is Charizard's flight, not its firepower.
> And Venusaur also has access to Grass Whistle, IIRC.



There appear to be people who believe Venusaur is beating Charizard in a one-on-one.


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> There appear to be people who believe Venusaur is beating Charizard in a one-on-one.



You're acting like it is a one-on-one


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 31, 2014)

Honestly you could make an argument for all of them winning, but the one I see winning the least is Charizard even if it has flight advantage.


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## Xiammes (Mar 31, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Sleep Powder isn't very accurate and if it focuses on Charizard for two turns Blastoise can just use Yawn



Fire Blast isn't that much more accurate, Venusaur can also hold Charizard down with his vines to keep it from running away.



> There appear to be people who believe Venusaur is beating Charizard in a one-on-one.



It can, just as Charizard can beat Blastoise, the nature of this three way mixes things up, Venusaur has no chance if both Blastoise and Charizard target it first turn. Charizard is the least likely to survive a attack from his weakness due to how frail it is, Blastoise ice beam helps when fighting Venusaur, but won't win when Venusaur gigadrains it.


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## Totally not a cat (Mar 31, 2014)

Blastoise has flight too, and Venusaur doesn't even need it. I dare Charizard to try and hurt Venusaur through Synthesis, Ingrain and Leech seed while having to deal with spores and Venusaur's attacks themselves.

Honey Venusaur don't care.


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

Charizard with the flight advantage, superior movement speed, and AOE attacks? Honestly, i'm going to say this depends on distance: Venusaur wins close range, Charizard wins long range


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## Totally not a cat (Mar 31, 2014)

Standard distance is 20m, go figure.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Charizard with the flight advantage, superior movement speed, and AOE attacks? Honestly, i'm going to say this depends on distance: Venusaur wins close range, Charizard wins long range



How would Charizard win like that? All Blastoise needs to do is use Rain Dance and it's screwed. Blastoise's attacks can also hit it before it even gets into the air


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

>Assuming Blastoise is fast enough to tag Charizard before it gets in the air
>Assuming Charizard will either die from rain or lose the ability to use other attacks, such as Dragon Pulse, rage, etc
>Assuming Charizard can't use sunny day
>Assuming Rain Dance doesn't take unnecessary time


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## Totally not a cat (Mar 31, 2014)

>Assuming Charizard can somehow make Blastoise flinch in the meantime

Charizard's got the bigger guns, but the other starters are bad match ups for it.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> >Assuming Blastoise is fast enough to tag Charizard before it gets in the air
> >Assuming Charizard will either die from rain or lose the ability to use other attacks, such as Dragon Pulse, rage, etc
> >Assuming Charizard can't use sunny day
> >Assuming Rain Dance doesn't take unnecessary time



> Blastoise's Water Spout is more than fast enough to hit it. 
> Blastoise uses Smack Down which is a rock move that knocks it out of the air and negates it's flying type
> Sunny Day would take at least as long as Rain Dance


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> >Assuming Blastoise is fast enough to tag Charizard before it gets in the air



Flying is an extremely cumbersome activity, particularly the takeoff segment. Throw in Charizard's physique and it's not going to have an easy time getting into the air with two other fully evolved starters on its case.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 31, 2014)

Venosaur is the most versatile imo, pretty much can attack at all ranges, has a decent amount of hax compared the two, and is pretty tanky.
Probably less than blastoise(? I am not too sure), but he can definitely heal himself with various techniques within his skillset.


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## Volt manta (Mar 31, 2014)

The odds that a single rock thrown from a Blastoise would actually hit a flying Charizard is debatable. Rock types being super effective to Charizard is also debatable.
It's not like Charizard can do anything to Blastoise anyways, it just has a better chance of leaving the field before any damage can be done. Water Spout would have the same problems hitting Charizard that Hydro pump would, unless it has better vertical velocity than Charizard


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 31, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> The odds that a single rock thrown from a Blastoise would actually hit a flying Charizard is debatable. Rock types being super effective to Charizard is also debatable.
> It's not like Charizard can do anything to Blastoise anyways, it just has a better chance of leaving the field before any damage can be done. Water Spout would have the same problems hitting Charizard that Hydro pump would, unless it has better vertical velocity than Charizard



Something it's got a x4 weakness to's effectiveness is debatable? Charizard isn't fast at all on the ground and takes a good pause and a few flaps to fly into the air which is all the time Blastoise needs (I mentioned Water Spout instead of Hydro Pump because it's a good deal stronger when Blastoise is at full health)

In regards to Venusaur, it is indeed the most versitile, it's defenses are weaker than Blastoise's (Blastoise also has its shell) but are decent, Charizard's defenses are actually comparable, but it's typing hurts it however Venusaur has nothing to put Charizard down unless it spams moves while it's asleep (Venusaur could also get a speed boost in the sun)


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 1, 2014)

Pretty sure elemental weakness is just game mechanics.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

They really aren't, they've been applied and mentioned in every media of Pokemon


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Most are, a few of them make logical sense. As for takeoff:
[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]
takeoff starts at 2:25. Aside from stretching to show off, please tell me exactly where Charizard lags when getting air.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

Not much lag there other than that pause, but it looked kind of like it jumped right up interestingly enough similarly to it's B^ in Smash Bros.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 1, 2014)

Blastoise uses rain dance and preceds to take care of bussiness.


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## Tacocat (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> [YOUTUBE]CizjFxRHHVk[/YOUTUBE]
> takeoff starts at 2:25. Aside from stretching to show off, please tell me exactly where Charizard lags when getting air.



The issue is you're insisting that it's going to be faster than Blastoise's high-pressure, high velocity water cannons when they can tag equivalent Pokes from a distance just fine. Like saying Usain Bolt who's pushing off with his non-dominant foot can dodge a bullet from 20 meters by virtue of being pretty damn fast.


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Show me when Blastoise has managed to tag a pokemon moving as fast or faster than Charizard


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## Tacocat (Apr 1, 2014)

Dude, are you serious right now?


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

No, i'm curious, show me one and i'll give this whole damn thing up.


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## Tacocat (Apr 1, 2014)

That's the most immediate one that comes to mind, albeit it's not from 20 meters. There are other cases (I watched through the entirety of Kanto, Johto, and Hoenn last Summer and Pikachu's been tagged by Water Guns from freaking Lotads and the like many-a-time) that I really just couldn't be fucked to look for.

And even if Charizard were to dodge, what difference does it make? The situation occurred in Gary's battle with Ash, and Charizard couldn't do a damn thing. They both have sufficiently ranged attacks, and despite appearances Blastoise is no slouch in movement speed.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

^ Blastoise's water powered tackles (I assume this got turned into Aqua Jet) are supposed to be quite fast if we're talking speed


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

Pretty sure Blasty tagged ZapMolCuno in the manga.


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Eh, works for me. Venusaur's got enough hax to tie Blastoise down for days after the fact, so I guess he takes it relatively easy at that point.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

But he can't do much to Charizard (without Sun, but he'd be beaten by then) so it's still at an impasse. 

Also...


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 1, 2014)

Status ailment inflicting abilities do wonders sometimes.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

True, but most of the grass ones are fairly inaccurate and Charizards should be able to at least blow the powders away


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

accuracy is a game mechanic, and this should be an argument about what's likely to happen, since their are too many variables to go with otherwise.


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

Your Hydro Pump is the Hydro Pump that will pierce the heavens!


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## DreamySunday (Apr 1, 2014)

I like this debate because these three are so evenlly matched that you could debate for hours and still not get anywhere


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## Tom Servo (Apr 1, 2014)

Has anyone made a Venustoise joke yet?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

Blastsaur is a better name than Venustoise, so I don't know why they went with that


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## strongarm85 (Apr 1, 2014)

If Mega-evolutions come into play, Charizard Y mega-evolves, causing  a sunny day effect, and proceeds to OHKO mega-Blastoise with a Sun-Boosted Solar Beam before Blastoise can even do anything due to A.) Being faster, and B.) Having a highly boosted Special Attack.

Mega-Charizard Y would then be in excellent condition to beat down Mega-Venusaur using Super Effective Flying type attacks, like Air-slash.

Charizard Y clearly has the advantage.


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## Xiammes (Apr 1, 2014)

Your scenario doesn't count Venusaurs option, Charizard Y will get put to sleep or get leach seeded, an air slash isn't goint to OHKO Mega Venusaur either, I'm rather doubtful solar beam will OHKO without stab. 

If Charizard Y focuses on Mega Venusaur, he will have to deal with Mega Blastoise on his back. Water Pulse is going to hurt even in the sun.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

Venusaur will probably win if this turns into a battle of Mega Evolutions due to Thick Fat. Also Solar Beam only skips its build up in the Sun, it doesn't get boosted and Mega Charizard Y doesn't get STAB, Blastoise has strong defenses and won't go down in one hit from that, then will use Rain Dance


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

You're overestimating thick fat, drought cancels out the neutrality anyways. A wild Charizard is also unlikely to know Solarbeam, though. If we discount all the things that are unlikely(Blastoise having smack down,etc.), it's Charizard's Y's game unless it gets sleep powdered. If it's Charizard X, Venusaur wins.


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## Tsubori (Apr 1, 2014)

Realistically, Charizard is going to take flight quickly, using that advantage to bombard Blastoise and Venusaur with Flamethrowers. With Venusaur not much being a fan of that, he'd be forced to use Giga drain on the only pokemon he can reach, Blastoise. Blastoise's moveset is... Actually not very combat based, with more moves based on buffing his defence (Going by what they learn naturally). Hydro Pump and Solar beam are the only attacks with a chance of hitting Charizard up there, but Hydro pump only has five shots and is fairly inaccurate. In addition, Blastoise will be left with the status nightmare of Poison powder, stun spore, and sleep powder. Overall, Charizard only needs to use his far superior speed (With scary face to HALVE either of the others' speed) and he should be able to make it out with minor injuries. He has a trap attack (Fire spin) aerial domination, a dual type advantage making it so that solar beam, with a base damage of 120 does a mere 30 base, less than an attack like Ember or water gun. In addition, let's not ignore the fact that Zard has been in the spotlight a lot more. He's battled legendaries, and Blastoise and Venusaur have done actually quite little.


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

Tsubori said:


> Realistically, Charizard is going to take flight quickly, using that advantage to bombard Blastoise and Venusaur with Flamethrowers. With Venusaur not much being a fan of that, he'd be forced to use Giga drain on the only pokemon he can reach, Blastoise. Blastoise's moveset is... Actually not very combat based, with more moves based on buffing his defence (Going by what they learn naturally). Hydro Pump and Solar beam are the only attacks with a chance of hitting Charizard up there, but Hydro pump only has five shots and is fairly inaccurate. In addition, Blastoise will be left with the status nightmare of Poison powder, stun spore, and sleep powder. Overall, Charizard only needs to use his far superior speed (With scary face to HALVE either of the others' speed) and he should be able to make it out with minor injuries. He has a trap attack (Fire spin) aerial domination, a dual type advantage making it so that solar beam, with a base damage of 120 does a mere 30 base, less than an attack like Ember or water gun. In addition, let's not ignore the fact that Zard has been in the spotlight a lot more. He's battled legendaries, and Blastoise and Venusaur have done actually quite little.



Blastoise has flight too, and they con both be dragged and tied down by vines, because they have the same attack speed, mind you.
PP, Power and stat increase/decrease are game mechanics; and they have about the same firepower, they're calced at 30 gigatons and that's pretty much it, neither has a calc higher than that.
Spores/leech seed are eventually hitting them both.


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Spores are not surviving in the inferno that's going to take place on that battlefield. Drought allows Charizard to survive any random water type move, at which point it nukes the battlefield. Also, Blastoise flying was due to Green's abilities as a trainer, the majority of Blastoise will not know how to fly.


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## Xiammes (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> You're overestimating thick fat, drought cancels out the neutrality anyways. A wild Charizard is also unlikely to know Solarbeam, though. If we discount all the things that are unlikely(Blastoise having smack down,etc.), it's Charizard's Y's game unless it gets sleep powdered. If it's Charizard X, Venusaur wins.



Drought doesn't cancle out thick fat. Thick fat makes Venusaur only take 50% total damage from fire and Ice, negatating the super effective damage. That means Charizard only has STAB and drought, which mean fire moves are going to hit like a non stab super effective move, so it will still hurt but Venusaur can take the hit. 

Also even with thick fat, fire blast will be out damaging any flying move thanks to drought,


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Spores are not surviving in the inferno that's going to take place on that battlefield. Drought allows Charizard to survive any random water type move, at which point it nukes the battlefield. Also, Blastoise flying was due to Green's abilities as a trainer, the majority of Blastoise will not know how to fly.



Composite Blastoise and Aqua jet say otherwise. Also, spores and seeds are going to be raining nonstop, they're eventually going to land somewhere during the fight, they can't carelessly take off when there's going to be vines everywhere


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Which is nice, but Venusaur's options are limited now, since even if Venusaur can survive the attacks, any grass type moves it's using short of Solarbeam and Vine Whip are lighting up. Pollen is not floating through the air in a furnace, so powder moves and leech seed are useless.
Charizard Y has no issues taking off since Hydro Pump is not koing it, there's no reason it can't nuke.


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## Xiammes (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Which is nice, but Venusaur's options are limited now, since even if Venusaur can survive the attacks, any grass type moves it's using short of Solarbeam and Vine Whip are lighting up. Pollen is not floating through the air in a furnace, so powder moves and leech seed are useless.



You keep saying this but when has Charizard ever lit up a arena? Let alone from high up in the air, Charizard's range isn't that good. 

Not counting the fact Charizard won't have a chance to escape in any scenario, he doesn't just fly up, he needs to gain lift off, mean while he has to dangerous adversaries.

Don't count out Mega Blastoise, water pulse still gets Megalauncher boost and STAB , Water pulse is still going to hurt reguardless.


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

In the battle with gary, a few flamethrowers from Charizard aimed at the field melted the entire stage. I already posted a video showing the fact that Charizard needs less than a second for takeoff, he literally just lifts up. As far as range is concerned, Charizard doesn't need much; just far enough that it can dodge any attacks that would be aimed at it, at which point it can either melt the field or wait until Venusaur deals with Blastoise, then melt the field.


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

You're forgetting about petal dance and sludge bomb, which would hit Charizard much harder. Charizard is as fast as Blastoise and Venusaur, which means neither will have the chance to run away and blast from afar.
He's not getting away as Venusaur can drag it down and Blastoise can chase it.


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## Xiammes (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> In the battle with gary, a few flamethrowers from Charizard aimed at the field melted the entire stage. I already posted a video showing the fact that Charizard needs less than a second for takeoff, he literally just lifts up. As far as range is concerned, Charizard doesn't need much; just far enough that it can dodge any attacks that would be aimed at it, at which point it can either melt the field or wait until Venusaur deals with Blastoise, then melt the field.



>few flamethrowers 

More then one, and yes range is important, it doesn't get mentioned much but aim is incredible important. Charizard hasn't been shown to hit anything for more the a couple off meters. The range your are talking about requires alot of accuracy. 

I don't see how Charizard plans on getting away before he is either dragged down by Mega Venusaur or attacked by Blastoise.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

Blastoise on the other hand can hit objects accurately from 160 feet away and in Mega form its main cannon has a range of over 6 miles. It's not to slow to hit Charizard and definitely won't miss


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Blastoise... isn't chasing anything. Venusaur grabbing Charizard is nice, but it wouldn't accomplish anything even if it were possible in the time frame before Charizard Y takes off. Sludge bomb is not killing, and once Charizard is high enough, it's not connecting at all, at which point Charizard melts the battlefield with fire blast, flamethrower, inferno,heat wave,etc.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

Blastoise doesn't even need to move (if it does it can move at high speeds like it does for tackles( I assume propelled by water), it'll just destroy Charizard from a distance either before or after it takes off and if it tries to melt the field it'll just cool it off


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Charizard Y is surviving at least one Hydro Pump, If Mega Blastoise can learn it, which is all it needs. Blastoise is only getting one or two shots; Venusaur is going to be on the on the only remaining pokemon on the fieilds ass like white on rice. If it can Hydro Pump through Solarbeams and giga drains and sleep powders that are covering the field after Charizard hits the sky, that's one very resilient pokemon


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

Are you sure? 


No, but seriously, sunlight is giving Venusaur a bunch of advantages too and Blastoise can rain dance at any moment, it also learns aqua jet and has cannonly being shown to fly via hydro pump.
Worst case scenario, Hydro cannon and Frenzy plant can go at least 50km into the air, Charizard is not safe.


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## Xiammes (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Blastoise... isn't chasing anything. Venusaur grabbing Charizard is nice, but it wouldn't accomplish anything even if it were possible in the time frame before Charizard Y takes off. Sludge bomb is not killing, and once Charizard is high enough, it's not connecting at all, at which point Charizard melts the battlefield with fire blast, flamethrower, inferno,heat wave,etc.



Sludge bomb is still going to hurt. Venusaur grabbing Charizard before he flies off does matter, he isn't going anywhere. Mega Venusaur can easily sleep powder his ass or Mega  Blastoise could decide to do something if it doesn't focus on Mega Venusaur.


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Except with the apparently now equal reactions, and Charizard being 20m away, Venusaur isn't grabbing shit before Charizard takes off. Green's Blastoise was specially taught to learn to use hydro pump to fly, you're going to have to find another example that suggests this happens before I even begin to accept the possibility of flying Blatoise.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> No, but seriously, sunlight is giving Venusaur a bunch of advantages too and Blastoise can rain dance at any moment, it also learns aqua jet and has *cannonly* being shown to fly via hydro pump.
> Worst case scenario, Hydro cannon and Frenzy plant can go at least 50km into the air, Charizard is not safe.



I see what you did there


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Except with the apparently now equal reactions, and Charizard being 20m away, Venusaur isn't grabbing shit before Charizard takes off. Green's Blastoise was specially taught to learn to use hydro pump to fly, you're going to have to find another example that suggests this happens before I even begin to accept the possibility of flying Blatoise.



With reactions equal, Charizard gets a hole through it's body courtesy of Blastoise's cannons which can easily go through steel before it takes off


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I see what you did there






MusubiKazesaru said:


> With reactions equal, Charizard gets a hole through it's body courtesy of Blastoise's cannons which can *easily go through steel* before it takes off



These pokemon have island dc/dura, so that's kinda moot. But a terribly accurate Hydro pump isn't going to be very well appreciated.


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Or Charizard instantly evaporates everything water based  on the battlefield since it's breath is hot enough to melt a 10,000 ton glacier. Pokedex entries, what can you say?
Joking aside, previous point still stands.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 1, 2014)

This thread is stupid. Their level up move pools are terrible to the point they're uber fucked against the one that resists them. If you toss in TMs egg moves and tutors there is far too many variables to track.


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

We're really just arguing who goes down first, since their resists are pretty much going to win regardless.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 1, 2014)

But it isn't regardless. Any of them can win depending on the circumstances once you toss in TMs egg moves and tutors.


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## Tacocat (Apr 1, 2014)

What's this bullshit about Charizard having such a decisive speed advantage, anyway?


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

If you're assuming Mega Venusaur or Mega Blastoise can run as fast as Charizard X/Y can fly, then I don't know what to say. Overall, Venusaur actually has best attack reactions based on canon sources, whereas Blastoise is best defensively.


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

They scale from each other, so not quite.
Also Venusaur is the best defensively because of recovery abuse, Blastoise is the best tank and Charizard is stronger, all of these to unquantifiable levels


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## Tacocat (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> If you're assuming Mega Venusaur or Mega Blastoise can run as fast as Charizard X/Y can fly, then I don't know what to say. Overall, Venusaur actually has best attack reactions based on canon sources, whereas Blastoise is best defensively.



We've seen Blastoise be plenty nimble when using shit like Rapid Spin. Its reaction, attack, and combat speed are not to be trifled with, regardless of its footspeed. Venusaur's attack and reaction speeds are also formidable. How, exactly, is Charizard's flight speed so decisively advantageous?


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Which,quite frankly, doesn't change anything. Charizard flies out of attack range, wait's for Venusaur to deal with Blastoise, then fire spins/infernos/heat waves. I think Charizard's durability is being misrepresented here; it's taken pretty ridiculous attacks in base form, I don't think a now neutral Hydro Pump(thanks to drought) is going to be putting it down


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

Think again


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

It doesn't need one; it just needs time to get into the air, which it has enough speed and durability to do so, since Drought's running and Charizard isn't a glass cannon by any stretch.


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## Tacocat (Apr 1, 2014)

You keep assuming Charizard is going to have an easy time of getting up and staying in the air with two of its peers on its case. In Ash's battle with Gary, it could barely deal with one grounded starter. What makes you think it'll have free-reign from the sky with two?


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Two? Are you assuming that once Charizard is in the air, Venusaur and Blastoise will stand 20m apart from each other and take potshots at Charizard until he goes down? Once it's out of the "easy to tag" range, Venusaur turns on Blastoise, and Charizard comes back to mop up whatever's left.


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## Tacocat (Apr 1, 2014)

Why? Charizard would be the most imposing threat to both of them from a predatory standpoint. And Blastoise was pressuring Charizard just fine from the ground.


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Two? Are you assuming that once Charizard is in the air, Venusaur and Blastoise will stand 20m apart from each other and take potshots at Charizard until he goes down? Once it's out of the "easy to tag" range, Venusaur turns on Blastoise, and Charizard comes back to mop up whatever's left.



You got it backwards, they're not going to sit and contemplate Charizard soaring through the skies, if your enemy is trying to escape you're not supposed to let him go, you drag him back and then you slap it.
 Also, I don't think Charizard can get out of range even if they let it fly freely, unless you think Charizard can fly to the thermoshpere and somehow attack from there, very few pokemon besides Rayquaza can move freely through the stratosphere and above;  and you want charizard to go higher than that?


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## Volt manta (Apr 1, 2014)

Occam's razor; it's much more likely Venusaur will attack the pokemon it has the best advantage over, rather than stand a relatively small distance away from that pokemon and attack the one it has disadvantage against, especially when said pokemon is leaving the battlefield.


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 1, 2014)

No, it's much more reasonable to attack the giant dragon trying to get away. Also, can you prove Charizard can even leave the battlefield? because Venusaur and Blastoise's attacks can go up to the stratosphere/mesosphere, as seen  (that gigantic water Kyogre is 44km up in the air).

And even if you're playing that game then Blastoise would knock Charizard with hydro pump/follow up with aqua jet.

EDIT:
Come to think about it, isn't that also the greatest of all pokemon speed feats? what with a couple Pikachus and a Pichu crossing multiple kilometres before the kyogre lost any noticeable height (they volt tackled it). Emerald arc suddenly doesn't suck anymore


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## Tacocat (Apr 1, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Occam's razor; it's much more likely Venusaur will attack the pokemon it has the best advantage over, rather than stand a relatively small distance away from that pokemon and attack the one it has disadvantage against, especially when said pokemon is leaving the battlefield.



They're animals...with instincts and all that. They're going to go after the threat, what they feel has the most capacity for predation. Charizard isn't generally portrayed as a gentle soul. It's aggressive and offensive. The sky is not somewhere you want something like a bloodlusted Charizard to be.

That's not Occam's Razor at all, that's assuming Pokemon prioritize strategic subterfuge over the instinct to defend themselves. That's not even strategic, anyway; Blastoise is a valuable asset to Venusaur.


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## Volt manta (Apr 2, 2014)

SuperTacocat said:


> They're animals...with instincts and all that. They're going to go after the threat, what they feel has the most capacity for predation.



Which is why rabbits attack foxes that are walking by them. Attempting to attack the creature that is capable of doing the most damage to you when said pokemon is fleeing the scene would make Venusaur stupid. This also goes both ways; Blastoise is unlikely to assist the pokemon that will be handing it its ass after the fight with Charizard. We also don't know the dietary habits of any of these pokemon, so we can't make that claim.


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## Tacocat (Apr 2, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Which is why rabbits attack foxes that are walking by them. Attempting to attack the creature that is capable of doing the most damage to you when said pokemon is fleeing the scene would make Venusaur stupid. This also goes both ways; Blastoise is unlikely to assist the pokemon that will be handing it its ass after the fight with Charizard. We also don't know the dietary habits of any of these pokemon, so we can't make that claim.



The fuck? Dietary habbits be damned, Charizard is attacking them. It doesn't have to eat them for them to be threatened by it.

Also, this:



> They're going to go after the threat, what they feel has the most capacity for predation. Charizard isn't generally portrayed as a gentle soul. It's aggressive and offensive. The sky is not somewhere you want something like a bloodlusted Charizard to be.



They're fighting, not engaging in some chance encounter. Rabbits are feeble compared to foxes. That's not exactly an apt analogy.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 2, 2014)

ITT: what happens when you don't set a scenario for a battle.


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## Volt manta (Apr 2, 2014)

Fine, it's me shouting at the masked gunman while he's walking down the hall, it still calls Venusaur's intelligence into serious question. If i'm correct, you're basis for Charizard being ganged up on is Venusaur and Blastoise thinking "big teeth" and double teaming Charizard from the start of the match, even though Blastoise, who could handle Charizard, would logically see Venusaur as the bigger threat. This most certainly does call dietary habits into question,or at least an explanation of why Blastoise would help its counter to beat its weakness


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 2, 2014)

Not necesarily double teaming, just not killing each other and letting Charizard do as it pleases. A stray shot is knocking Charizard off the sky or at least slow him down, and he's not invulnerabe even in the sky so in the end it doesn't matter that much if Charizard flies up or not.


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## swandiveLmeistr (Apr 2, 2014)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> ITT: what happens when you don't set a scenario for a battle.



If ya knew WHY I made this thread, then ya'd know I have as much of clue outside of a three-way Poke-fuck fest as y'all do.

Soooo......was there any sort of consensus on any part of the battle?

Besides Charizard>Venusaur>Blastoise>Charizard>Venusaur>Blastoise etc ad infinitum?


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 2, 2014)

Longstoryshort: No.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 2, 2014)

Shit isn't as straight forward as typing or who can fly. What moves they know and what abilities that have are hugely important.


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## Volt manta (Apr 2, 2014)

Agreed regular pokes ends up with Venusaur winning, still working on Megas
We eliminated extraneous moves to prevent a clusterfuck, although that... didn't quite work as well as I hoped.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 2, 2014)

Regular pokes doesn't end with Venusaur winning with its ridiculous mono grass base move pool. It goes rock-paper-scissors like you'd expect. Once you start including other moves beyond the base you have to account for shit like Dragon Dance on Charizard which is why it turns into a clusterfuck.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 2, 2014)

You could make an argument for any of them winning really. I'm leaning towards Blastoise for base and Venusaur for Megas.


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 2, 2014)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Regular pokes doesn't end with Venusaur winning with its ridiculous mono grass base move pool. It goes rock-paper-scissors like you'd expect. Once you start including other moves beyond the base you have to account for shit like Dragon Dance on Charizard which is why it turns into a clusterfuck.



Elemental resistances equal to shit when you have things like Venusaur OHKOing three forretresses with a single _vine whip_ (20 base power) in the manga, which are supposed to be physical walls so we better leave game mechanics aside, and it gets moves such as leech seed, all spores and synthesis in it's level up movepool, even some normal type attacks if that's such a bother.

We'd better leave this as not definable because of too many variables without a set scenario, because one can make an argument and strategy for either to win.


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## Volt manta (Apr 2, 2014)

I'm somehow totally okay with calling this undefinable...


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 2, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Elemental resistances equal to shit when you have things like Venusaur OHKOing three forretresses with a single _vine whip_ (20 base power) in the manga


Skill level differences are a bitch, everyone knows this. Unless you're assuming Venusaur is somehow massively more skilled than the other participants this is irrelevant and you should feel bad for bringing it up. A Charizard on the same skill level without plot BS involved is going to laugh at any grass attacks.



> and it gets moves such as leech seed, all spores and synthesis in it's level up movepool, even some normal type attacks if that's such a bother.


Okay pick 4 moves that it's going to beat them both with. I'll wait. BTW it doesn't learn Stun Spore and the only normal type attacks it learns are recoil moves unless you want to count Tackle which would just be retarded.



> We'd better leave this as not definable because of too many variables without a set scenario, because one can make an argument and strategy for either to win.


That's the real problem isn't it? Everyone's been acting like their favorite is somehow massively smarter than the others with the perfect move pool to beat them.


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 2, 2014)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Skill level differences are a bitch, everyone knows this. Unless you're assuming Venusaur is somehow massively more skilled than the other participants this is irrelevant and you should feel bad for bringing it up. A Charizard on the same skill level without plot BS involved is going to laugh at any grass attacks.



It happens all over the time, like Emerald's Sceptile tanking a Blizzard from Ruby's Mimi just fine, or Ash's swellow tanking Pikachu's thunder. It matters, but it's not a earth shattering advantage.



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Okay pick 4 moves that it's going to beat them both with. I'll wait. BTW it doesn't learn Stun Spore and the only normal type attacks it learns are recoil moves unless you want to count Tackle which would just be retarded.



Wait, are you actually suggesting we pick only 4 moves, and those moves have to belong to their level up movepools? 



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> That's the real problem isn't it? Everyone's been acting like their favorite is somehow massively smarter than the others with the perfect move pool to beat them.



Kind of


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 2, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> It happens all over the time, like Emerald's Sceptile tanking a Blizzard from Ruby's Mimi just fine, or Ash's swellow tanking Pikachu's thunder. It matters, but it's not a earth shattering advantage.


I know it happens and it usually represents a large skill difference unless its Ash pulling BS plot hax at which point it should be ignored.



> Wait, are you actually suggesting we pick only 4 moves, and those moves have to belong to their level up movepools?


Just proving my point. Their level up move pools are terrible especially when you're restricted to the standard 4 moves and it will end up in a rock-paper-scissors scenario. That is, after all, how a wild one would be restricted.





> Kind of


For shame.


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## swandiveLmeistr (Apr 2, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Longstoryshort: No.



Welp, better than nothing!

Oh wait...


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## Volt manta (Apr 2, 2014)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Skill level differences are a bitch, everyone knows this. Unless you're assuming Venusaur is somehow massively more skilled than the other participants this is irrelevant and you should feel bad for bringing it up. A Charizard on the same skill level without plot BS involved is going to laugh at any grass attacks.
> 
> 
> Okay pick 4 moves that it's going to beat them both with. I'll wait. BTW it doesn't learn Stun Spore and the only normal type attacks it learns are recoil moves unless you want to count Tackle which would just be retarded.
> ...



This battle is more dependent on the physical actions and attitudes of the pokemon in this battle than the stats, so an argument could be made for any of them. They really are just too evenly balanced.
(...Also, Charizard's my second, i'm really pro Blastoise...)


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## swandiveLmeistr (Apr 6, 2014)

Not really sure if this changes anyone's opinions:


Skip to the end for analysis.

The tally was 4-1-1 for Blastoise.


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## swandiveLmeistr (Apr 11, 2014)

Well, Blastoise won, and I think they gave a good reasoning.

Basically it boiled down to superior defense outlasting the other two combined with Rain Dance being effective against both.

There's more (along with another obnoxious Deadliest Warrior-style math run-down that I guess is fine) to it, and I'd suggest watching the video.

In any case FUCK YEAH BLASTOISE WOOOOOO!!!


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## Vivi Ornitier (Apr 11, 2014)

Could care less about this match; I hear Fulgore will be in the next episode though, who is his opponent? Fulgore is my favourite Killer Instinct character, I hope he gets pit against Cyrax.
-Proto


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 12, 2014)

this thread needs to be locked


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## shade0180 (Apr 12, 2014)

^ I second this.


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## Totally not a cat (Apr 12, 2014)

^ I agree with that.


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