# Hashirama vs Team7



## Kaiser (Apr 6, 2013)

*Location:* VOTE
*Restriction:* None
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC but going for the kill

Team 7 = Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi and Sakura

Naruto's BM can last 15minutes

*Scenario2:* If team7 stomps, add Minato to team up with Hashirama


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## Kai (Apr 6, 2013)

Hashirama can use terrain morphing abilities and Mokuton Bunshin to take them all on simultaneously in base, but with Kakashi's intelligence he may be able to use Naruto and Sasuke's powers with his own to force Hashirama into Sage Mode. 

However, from that stage onwards, Sage Mode steamrolls all of their strongest powers effortlessly. Any sort of offfensive Kamui is absolutely useless against _Shinsuusenju_.


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## Kaiser (Apr 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> Hashirama can use terrain morphing abilities and Mokuton Bunshin to take them all on simultaneously in base, but with Kakashi's intelligence he may be able to use Naruto and Sasuke's powers with his own to force Hashirama into Sage Mode.
> 
> However, from that stage onwards, Sage Mode steamrolls all of their strongest powers effortlessly. Any sort of offfensive Kamui is absolutely useless against _Shinsuusenju_.


Nice post but why will kamui be used on Shinsuusenju if kamui can be used on Hashirama? Don't also forget Hashirama is not the only one who can attack here and Naruto can provide tailed beast chakra to Kakashi, Sasuke and Sakura, which means they should be able to spam their most powerful moves, not even mentioning the upgrade in their speed and power


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

Biju Mode Naruto has the feats to contend with Sage Mode Hashirama. Super Bijudama should be able to wipe off the Senju'u off the map or stall it at least after all.


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## PopoTime (Apr 6, 2013)

Kyuubi powered Kamui GG

Enton Spam + Bijuudama spam GG


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> However, from that stage onwards, Sage Mode steamrolls all of their strongest powers effortlessly. Any sort of offfensive Kamui is absolutely useless against _Shinsuusenju_.



Sasuke burns it down.

Literally, the boosts that Naruto provide make him the most ridiculous team player in the Battledome. Hinata could push back the Juubi's attack, quite far actually. Even without the shroud, Kakashi could defeat the likes of the Hachibi with a glance.

Naruto's Chakra would drastically increase the potency of Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyou. I wouldn't rule out the possibly of Enton halting Shinsuusenju. At the very least, Sasuke can buy time for Naruto to devastate Hashirama with power _far_ _beyond_ anything Madara has showcased.


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## Kai (Apr 6, 2013)

Blake said:


> Nice post but why will kamui be used on Shinsuusenju if kamui can be used on Hashirama?


With Shinjuusenju activated, Hashirama is hardly even visible by the human eye on ground level.

Upon fighting it, the striking force of 1,000 hands makes focusing on Hashirama almost impossible. 



			
				SuperSaiyaman12 said:
			
		

> Biju Mode Naruto has the feats to contend with Sage Mode Hashirama.


I'm really hoping this is a bad joke.



Sage Mode Hashirama would pulverize Bijuu Mode Naruto with medium difficulty at _best_.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke burns it down.
> 
> Literally, the boosts that Naruto provide make him the most ridiculous team player in the Battledome. Hinata could push back the Juubi's attack, quite far actually. Even without the shroud, Kakashi could defeat the likes of the Hachibi with a glance.
> 
> Naruto's Chakra would drastically increase the potency of Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyou. I wouldn't rule out the possibly of Enton halting Shinsuusenju. At the very least, Sasuke can buy time for *Naruto to devastate Hashirama with power far beyond anything Madara has showcased.*



the 1st scan is the combined power of the majority of the biju and the 2nd scan was naruto and bees full power bijudama. idk what you were trying to prove, since none of the scans you posted are feats from naruto by himself.


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

Kyuubi enhanced EMS Sasuke most likely gets at least Perfect Susanoo with mountain-busting enton swords.

BM Naruto and Kyuubi enhanced Sasuke are already much stronger than what Madara had at VoTe, Kakashi and Sakura aren't even needed.





Kai said:


> I'm really hoping this is a bad joke.
> 
> 
> 
> Sage Mode Hashirama would pulverize Bijuu Mode Naruto with medium difficulty at _best_.


though I agree BM Naruto loses to SM Hashirama, 

PIS off, BM Naruto fodderizes the mokuton dragon no difficulty with one of five machinegundamas or a guided FRS.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the 1st scan is the combined power of the majority of the biju and the 2nd scan was naruto and bees full power bijudama. idk what you were trying to prove, since none of the scans you posted are feats from naruto by himself.



Naruto matched the combined might of 5 Bijuu. Even if you halve the power or AoE, both attacks are still greater than anything Madara;s done. Kurama's Bijuudama alone have not proven to be as great as Naruto's or even superior to the Bijuudama of the other Bijuu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> I'm really hoping this is a bad joke.
> 
> 
> 
> Sage Mode Hashirama would pulverize Bijuu Mode Naruto with medium difficulty at _best_.


Newsflash-Naruto was able to escape Mokuton Ryu and reform his cloak without any difficulty. This is also the same being which took Jyubi's Bijudama laser with minimum damage.


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## Samehadaman (Apr 6, 2013)

I don't think Hashirama can beat current Naruto, EMS Sasuke and unrestricted Kakashi.

While I understand we are currently in Hashirama wank season, we never even saw him deal with amaterasu, and Sasuke was stated by Itachi to be the superior amaterasu user. Kakashi with Kurama chakra is ridiculous. He warped the entire eight tails! Do people realise how big a deal that is? If it was an enemy, not an ally, it would be gone permanently, just like that! Hashirama has no clue on Kamui. Even with sage mode activated and his giant buda, Hashirama was standing in plain sight next to his golem, Kakashi can kamui him.

In close quarters, Hashirama wankers need to stop wanking. Naruto is a sage too. In KCM mode he's even faster. The other two are taijutsu/kenjutsu masters with sharingan precog and lightning. Against the three at the same time, Hashirama has no chance in CQC, sorry.

Naruto without plot can summon the toad army, and the toad army is a big deal against the large scale stuff. Sasuke's susanoo has ranged attacks. Naruto can pop out a clone army of FRS throwers. I already mentioned Kamui.

Hashirama will be bombarded with ridiculously fast attacks before he even decides to bring out the buda.

It would be a very hard fight, but I favor Naruto + Sasuke + Kakashi more often than not. Those three are among the greatest beasts in the manga, Sasuke and Kakashi are in-battle master tacticians, and the three are former teammates.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto matched the combined might of 5 Bijuu. Even if you halve the power or AoE, both attacks are still greater than anything Madara;s done. Kurama's Bijuudama alone have not proven to be as great as Naruto's or even superior to the Bijuudama of the other Bijuu.


so you're saying that over 10 bijudama combined with over 10 of madaras PS blades that slice through multiple mountains with 1 slash is weaker than a bijudama from naruto? that wank is off the charts.


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## Sans (Apr 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Biju Mode Naruto has the feats to contend with Sage Mode Hashirama. Super Bijudama should be able to wipe off the Senju'u off the map or stall it at least after all.



The Buddha statue laughed at a stream of Bijudama's from 100% Perfect Susano'o Kyuubi, when Naruto only has half that power.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> The Buddha statue laughed at a stream of Bijudama's from 100% Perfect Susano'o Kyuubi, when Naruto only has half that power.


Naruto can equal the might _of five Biju with a single Bijudama._ None of the Bijudama that Pefect Susano'o Kurama shot were anywhere remotely as powerful as that. The manga also makes it clear that a Biju with a host is superior to a Biju without one since their powers are used far better.

Madara has no way of making Bijudama stronger like Naruto can, and Naruto has the Super Bijudama variant.


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## αce (Apr 6, 2013)

ITT: People who think Naruto can beat Hashirama. 
:sanji


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

αce said:


> ITT: People who think Naruto can beat Hashirama.
> :sanji


Naruto has better speed feats, better defensive feats, better destructive feats, possesses Sage Mode as well, its not that hard to guess why.


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## Krippy (Apr 6, 2013)

BM Nardo + Kyubi powered EMS Sasuke with Enton convered PS + Kyubi powered Kakashi spamming Kamui

Hashi's not soloing this, Nardo and Sasuke can keep his summon busy while Kakashi works on sniping a distracted Hashi with Kamui


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## Sans (Apr 6, 2013)

Samehadaman said:


> Kakashi with Kurama chakra is ridiculous. He warped the entire eight tails! Do people realise how big a deal that is? If it was an enemy, not an ally, it would be gone permanently, just like that! Hashirama has no clue on Kamui. Even with sage mode activated and his giant buda, Hashirama was standing in plain sight next to his golem, Kakashi can kamui him.



Compare the Hachibi to Perfect Susano'o, then compare Perfect Susano'o to the Buddha statue. Now ask yourself what you're saying.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Compare the Hachibi to Perfect Susano'o, then compare Perfect Susano'o to the Buddha statue. Now ask yourself what you're saying.


With a V1 cloak, it shouldn't be impossible for Kakashi to warp it away due to the massive power boost.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> so you're saying that over 10 bijudama combined with over 10 of madaras PS blades that slice through multiple mountains with 1 slash is weaker than a bijudama from naruto? that wank is off the charts.



Naruto's showcased continuous Bijuudama as well If i remember correctly. The sword through it makes it more powerful of course, but not anything near the power Naruto's demonstrated at his max. If you want the exact math, check the OBD.



Komnenos said:


> The Buddha statue laughed at a stream of Bijudama's from 100% Perfect Susano'o Kyuubi, when Naruto only has half that power.



The statue took heavy damage from continuous Bijuudama, so I'm not so sure it's standing up to an attack much more powerful.


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## Samehadaman (Apr 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Compare the Hachibi to Perfect Susano'o, then compare Perfect Susano'o to the Buddha statue. Now ask yourself what you're saying.



Read better. I never said he'd warp the buda. He'll warp the Hashirama standing on top of the budda head. And if he misses the first time, he'll keep warping, because that's what Kurama powered Kakashi does.


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## αce (Apr 6, 2013)

Team 7 wins due to Kyuubi chakra sharing but Naruto is not soloing Hashirama. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Base Hashirama was deflecting and tanking bijuu dama's at point blank range and had a Buddha that was already large enough to cause Naruto bijuu dama type damage by simply hauling ass across the terrain. 

Of course this is me assuming that Hashirama's clones won't make short work of the rest of them but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Buddha statue picks up Kyuubi and then proceeds to use it as a toy - just like in the manga.



> If you want the exact math, *check the OBD*.



Alright, I'm out of here.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

αce said:


> Team 7 wins due to Kyuubi chakra sharing but Naruto is not soloing Hashirama. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Base Hashirama was deflecting and tanking bijuu dama's at point blank range and had a Buddha that was already large enough to cause Naruto bijuu dama type damage by simply hauling ass across the terrain.


Said Bijudama's weren't anywhere close to the ones Naruto can dish out and its disingenuous to claim so.


> Of course this is me assuming that Hashirama's clones won't make short work of the rest of them but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Buddha statue picks up Kyuubi and then proceeds to use it as a toy - just like in the manga.


Naruto cancels the cloak, uses his insane speed to get behind Hashirama, and then fires a Super Bijudama or Renzoku Bijudama.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

Has anyone addressed Naruto's speed? The guy moves faster than Ei, who moves faster than Sasuke's Sharingan can follow. Given the opportunity, Naruto can end this with a well timed flicker - one untraceable to Hashirama's Sharingan-less eyes - and a pointblank Rasenshurkien or CMB.


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## Sans (Apr 6, 2013)

Samehadaman said:


> Read better.



MOD TYRANNY



Samehadaman said:


> I never said he'd warp the buda. He'll warp the Hashirama standing on top of the budda head. And if he misses the first time, he'll keep warping, because that's what Kurama powered Kakashi does.



You're giving Kamui a range hundreds of times larger than what it's displayed.


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## αce (Apr 6, 2013)

Maybe this is simply the flawed battle dome logic of using feats only - but I was under the impression we would all use our reading comprehension and figure out what the author is trying to say us about Hashirama and Naruto. 

Although team 7 loses if the Buddha comes out immediately.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

αce said:


> Maybe this is simply the flawed battle dome logic of using feats only - but I was under the impression we would all use our reading comprehension and figure out what the author is trying to say us about Hashirama and Naruto.
> 
> Although team 7 loses if the Buddha comes out immediately.


The author said NOTHING. He implied that Hashirama is superior to a Mind-Controlled Kurama and Madara. Newsflash, Kurama with his MIND and teamed up with NARUTO is a fucking better combination. The manga's shown us time and time again, Jinchuriki and Biju partnerships are better than the Biju on their own.

Stop bashing Naruto.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

αce said:


> Maybe this is simply the flawed battle dome logic of using feats only - but I was under the impression we would all use our reading comprehension and figure out what the author is trying to say us about Hashirama and Naruto.
> 
> Although team 7 loses if the Buddha comes out immediately.




Kishi pretty much told us Naruto was the Ridikou Sennin reincarnate. If the two were to duke it out now, I'm not so sure Kishi would have Naruto loose that fight.


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

αce said:


> Maybe this is simply the flawed battle dome logic of using feats only - but I was under the impression we would all use our reading comprehension and figure out what the author is trying to say us about Hashirama and Naruto.


Hashirama might be depicted as the stronger of the two, but I don't see how that means that Naruto has to have weaker firepower than Kyuusanoo.  Though I can see a case being made for Kyuusanoo having greater firepower.



αce said:


> Although team 7 loses if the Buddha comes out immediately.


How is that so?


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## αce (Apr 6, 2013)

He didn't imply he was simply better. He flat out showed us that he was leagues above him. Even in base the Kyuubi with Madara couldn't do anything. When the Buddha came out the Kyuubi's power was that of a gnat in front of Hashirama. I'm having a hard time coming to the conclusion that the Kyuubi having a conscious say in the mater will bring him to the point where he isn't being picked up casually. Well, maybe not picked up casually. But kicked around ike a soccer ball. Yup.


And of course you would think that an argument against Naruto is bashing him. zzzzzzzzz. Show me where I bashed his character... I was just stating an argument. I'm not sitting around with my secret book of conspiracies trying to bash Naruto at every given moment. The character isn't worth the time.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

αce said:


> He didn't imply he was simply better. He flat out showed us that he was leagues above him. Even in base the Kyuubi with Madara couldn't do anything. When the Buddha came out the Kyuubi's power was that of a gnat in front of Hashirama. I'm having a hard time coming to the conclusion that the Kyuubi having a conscious say in the mater will bring him to the point where he isn't being picked up casually. Well, maybe not picked up casually. But kicked around ike a soccer ball. Yup.


Kurama took the entire barrage after Susano'o was ripped off and stayed standing without any damage. Yet Naruto, whose Biju Mode cloaks have been shown strong enough to TANK THE JYUBI'S BLASTS would be reduced to a gnat, seriously? Show me Kurama there firing anything CLOSE to the combined super Bijudama that the five other Biju used. Come on, show it.

And the manga's gone TIME AND TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN to show 'Jinchuriki + Beast = Stronger than both alone'. Kurama wasn't pumping out Bijudama equal to that of five Biju when Madara controlled him, so why assume that Kurama is stronger? Not to mention the fact that Naruto can fucking use his jutsus in Biju Mode for added oomph. 



> And of course you would think that an argument against Naruto is bashing him. zzzzzzzzz. Show me where I bashed his character... I was just stating an argument. I'm not sitting around with my secret book of conspiracies trying to bash Naruto at every given moment. The character isn't worth the time.


And you're argument's ignoring Naruto's speed. Your argument's ignoring the basic manga fact that a non-mind controlled Kurama is stronger than one that is, and that him and his Jinchuriki together are stronger than they are alone. It is bashing.


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## αce (Apr 6, 2013)

sigh
wheres nikushimi when i need him
not wasting any more time here im getting cancer


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## Sans (Apr 6, 2013)

Hashirama could probably solo by growing wood out of his dick and slapping Team 7 with it, that's how far above them he is.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

αce said:


> sigh
> wheres nikushimi when i need him
> not wasting any more time here im getting cancer


You honestly have no counter arguments when presented manga facts.


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## Kai (Apr 6, 2013)

Rocky said:
			
		

> Naruto's Chakra would drastically increase the potency of Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyou. I wouldn't rule out the possibly of Enton halting Shinsuusenju.


Naruto's chakra may bolster Sasuke's Enton scale to that of Hashirama and Madara, but Sage Mode which amplifies and stacks upon _that_ makes a leap to that level of power not believable.

I'm actually surprised to see the power scaling of Hashirama's Sage Mode to be _underrated_ here.

How does Naruto's chakra believably increase Sasuke's potency by two exponential leaps, not only to Hashirama's terrain morphing scale but to Sage Mode Hashirama's as well?



ueharakk said:


> though I agree BM Naruto loses to SM Hashirama,
> 
> PIS off, BM Naruto fodderizes the mokuton dragon no difficulty with one of five machinegundamas or a guided FRS.


There is no PIS such as that for an in character match. 

Sage Mode, which *enhances all* of the jutsu that are able to defeat Naruto, either sit on those bijuudamas or straight up block them.

Think about that for a second. Sage Mode amplifies all of Hashirama's techniques that were *already* able to have an edge against Naruto. In _base_ Hashirama was able to fend off two bijuudamas from Kurama fused with Perfect Susanoo without noticeable injury. All of Edo Madara's displayed Mokuton jutsu are Hashirama's in base condition.



			
				SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> Newsflash-Naruto was able to escape Mokuton Ryu and reform his cloak without any difficulty. This is also the same being which took Jyubi's Bijudama laser with minimum damage.


He did have difficulty doing so, and if he had trouble doing so in canon we can only assume Naruto will naturally have trouble doing the act of dispersing and reforming his cloak against the Mokuton dragon like his chakra being absorbed or him having to focus and struggle to escape. Ignoring these factors isn't PIS, it's just ignorance.

And if we're talking about SM Hashirama, which for no logical reason people are talking like he has the scale of base Hashirama, Naruto's inferiority becomes devastatingly clear.


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

αce said:


> He didn't imply he was simply better. He flat out showed us that he was leagues above him. Even in base the Kyuubi with Madara couldn't do anything.


base hashirama was running for his life and playing on the complete defensive as soon as kyuusanoo came out.

 By feats, BM Naruto would beat Base Hashirama.



αce said:


> When the Buddha came out the Kyuubi's power was that of a gnat in front of Hashirama.


what?  The kyuubi's SIZE may have been like a large rat compared to the buddah, but it's power most definitely was not so as it destroyed all the arms with less firepower than what BM Naruto had used.



αce said:


> I'm having a hard time coming to the conclusion that the Kyuubi having a conscious say in the mater will bring him to the point where he isn't being picked up casually. Well, maybe not picked up casually. But kicked around ike a soccer ball. Yup.


brotherin, in case you didn't know, BM Naruto =/= Kurama.  BM NAruto has some MAJOR advantages over Kurama.  BM Naruto not only has way better speed than kurama has shown while in full cloak, but if he is ever captured, he can just flash shunshin out of there.  not to mention Naruto can have clones within the avatar firing things like FRS that would destroy the Mokuton buddah's arm.

SM Naruto was beating 50% Kurama, does that mean BM Naruto is would lose to SM Naruto?




αce said:


> And of course you would think that an argument against Naruto is bashing him. zzzzzzzzz. Show me where I bashed his character... I was just stating an argument. I'm not sitting around with my secret book of conspiracies trying to bash Naruto at every given moment. The character isn't worth the time.


It's more of a laziness of argumentation when you adopt the A>B>C mindset of "BM Naruto = Kurama" and "Kurama + EMS Madara >>> BM Naruto".  

Also when you say things like "Kurama and Madara couldn't do anything against Base hashirama" it makes it seem like you are skewing what actually happened in the manga.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

αce said:


> He didn't imply he was simply better. He flat out showed us that he was leagues above him. Even in base the Kyuubi with Madara couldn't do anything. When the Buddha came out the Kyuubi's power was that of a gnat in front of Hashirama. I'm having a hard time coming to the conclusion that the Kyuubi having a conscious say in the mater will bring him to the point where he isn't being picked up casually. Well, maybe not picked up casually. But kicked around ike a soccer ball. Yup.



Shinsuusenju may be big, but all it managed to do was remove the Kyuubi's armor. The Kyuubi did _heavy damage_, and was far from gnat-status. If Hashirama didn't have the suppression ability, he would have lost the match, considering the statue collapsed as soon as Kurama was suppressed. 

Hashirama wasn't very far ahead of Madara, and the statue isn't what won him the duel. A Bunshin feint did...

The statue can't kick around everything because of it's size alone. The Juubi is also smaller, yet it at it's full power could tear Hashirama apart.


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## U mad bro (Apr 6, 2013)

Meh I wouldn't say Harishima is slower than Naruto. If anything outrunning that bijuudama/Susanoo gave him the best speed feat in the series. Until proven otherwise. Though  I think Naruto can Handle him by himself before the Statue comes out. Harishima would curb stomp him by himself with it.But he has impressive backup so Harishima has fight on his hand. Though he should win med-high difficulty. 1000 handss with susanoo level power yeah too much. They would have to kill him before the summoning.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto's showcased continuous Bijuudama as well If i remember correctly. The sword through it makes it more powerful of course, but not anything near the power Naruto's demonstrated at his max. If you want the exact math, check the OBD.
> 
> 
> 
> The statue took heavy damage from continuous Bijuudama, so I'm not so sure it's standing up to an attack much more powerful.



naruto and bees combined full power bijudama didnt make an explosion anywhere near the size of the 100% kyuubis bijudama combined with madara PS swords.

and no, the statue didnt take heavy damage from continuous bijudama. only the hands that hit madara in the exchange got  destroyed and the main body wasnt even damaged.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> He did have difficulty doing so, and if he had trouble doing so in canon we can only assume Naruto will naturally have trouble with the act of dispersing and reforming his cloak against the Mokuton dragon, such as his chakra being absorbed or him having to focus and struggle to escape.


The second Naruto turned off his cloak he bashed the Mokuton Ryu's head in and deactivated it. THen he reformed his full cloak to do another Ultra Bijudama with Bee to destroy the Gedo Mazo, remember?


> And if we're talking about SM Hashirama, which for no logical reason people are talking like he has the scale of base Hashirama, Naruto's inferiority becomes devastatingly clear.


SM Hashirama just creates a REALLY big Statue. There's no reason why Naruto's Super Bijudama can't destroy it given its more powerful than a Bijudama from five other Biju.


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## Samehadaman (Apr 6, 2013)

Notice how nobody (myself included) even remotely gave a thought to Sakura... 

That girl has the kekkei genkai of irrelevance.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> Naruto's chakra may bolster Sasuke's Enton scale to that of Hashirama and Madara, but Sage Mode which amplifies and stacks upon _that_ makes a leap to that level of power not believable.
> 
> I'm actually surprised to see the power scaling of Hashirama's Sage Mode to be _underrated_ here.
> 
> How does Naruto's chakra believably increase Sasuke's potency by two exponential leaps, not only to Hashirama's terrain morphing scale but to Sage Mode Hashirama's as well?



Er.. don't overlook the actual characteristics of the attacks. Pre-Summit Sasuke defeated a "terrain morphor" in Bee. Enton manipulation (mass fire) is already a nice check to Mokuton. How is that Statue going to do it's job when it's ignited by a mass powered Amaterasu? The technique has already shown that size is no obstacle. Normally, the Shinsuusenju could run right through it, but the Kyuubi boost to the technique should at least halt the statue.


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> There is no PIS such as that for an in character match.


of course there is PIS for an in character match.  If naruto opts to wrestle the wood dragon despite being able to simply nuke it with zero difficulty, then it's blatant PIS as his actions are completely contradictory to his goals.  

going by your logic, Edo madara loses to rock lee as he will not do anything as lee comes charging at him and bisects him with a kick.




Kai said:


> Sage Mode, which *enhances all* of the jutsu that are able to defeat Naruto, either sit on those bijuudamas or straight up block them.


What jutsus that are able to defeat Naruto?  Mokuryuu gets easily destroyed by a bijuudama.  Mokujin gets destroyed by 2 or 3 since it only has 2 hands.  a bijuudama clears out 99% of the mokuton within its blast radius.   Triple rashoumon was defeated by a KN4 bijuudama, a single rapidfire bijuudama's blast would encompass all 5 of them.

Base Hashirama has litterally no answer for rapidfire bijuudama and super bijuudama.  

I have no idea where you get "sit on those bijuudamas or straight up block them" when every single one of hashirama's base jutsus are destroyed by simply being within the blast radius of a bijuudama bar the defensive one that hashirama used to survive.



Kai said:


> Think about that for a second. Sage Mode amplifies all of Hashirama's techniques that were *already* able to have an edge against Naruto. In _base_ Hashirama was able to fend off two bijuudamas from Kurama fused with Perfect Susanoo without noticeable injury.


What edge did they have?  Even with massive PIS on Naruto's part, he still busted the wood dragon.  Without PIS or with his current manga knowledge of the tech, he nukes it with zero diff.  Hashirama "fended" off 1 bijuudama from Kyuusanoo, and he did that by changing the course of the dama with his rashoumon gates due to the dama having the PS blade in it.  Had it been a raw dama, it would have exploded on the gates, taking all 5 of them out.  

Rapidfire bijuudama would have killed base Hashirama as he had no answer for that technique, neither does he have an answer for super bijuudama.  

And I'll tell you like I told ace, BM Naruto =/= Kurama, BM Naruto has massive advantages over Kurama.


----------



## Samehadaman (Apr 6, 2013)

Why argue Naruto so much when we have Kurama enhanced amaterasu and kamui...


----------



## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto and bees combined full power bijudama didnt make an explosion anywhere near the size of the 100% kyuubis bijudama combined with madara PS swords.
> 
> and no, the statue didnt take heavy damage from continuous bijudama. only the hands that hit madara in the exchange got  destroyed and the main body wasnt even damaged.



The explosion was alot more powerful than _anything_ Madara has done man. The sheer size of the actual Bijuudama should tell you that.

Shinsuusenju collapsed pretty much right after subduing the Kyuubi. Unless you think Hashirama deactivated it for some reason.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> of course there is PIS for an in character match.  If naruto opts to wrestle the wood dragon despite being able to simply nuke it with zero difficulty, then it's blatant PIS as his actions are completely contradictory to his goals.
> 
> going by your logic, Edo madara loses to rock lee as he will not do anything as lee comes charging at him and bisects him with a kick.
> 
> ...


base hashirama already showed the ability to make 5 mokuton hands at once. 
5 bijudama, 5 mokuton hands but base hashirama gets oneshotted by continuous bijudama?
naruto cant beat base hashirama. BM naruto cant compare to sm hashirama or push him past low diff.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The explosion was alot more powerful than _anything_ Madara has done man. The sheer size of the actual Bijuudama should tell you that.
> 
> Shinsuusenju collapsed pretty much right after subduing the Kyuubi. Unless you think Hashirama deactivated it for some reason.


the explosion from the madara combo covered about 20+ mountains. naruto+bee covered about 6 or 7. lets be realistic here.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

I have to ask: Why isn't Naruto's feat against the Biju Paths considered on Hashirama's level? Curbstomping three outright, using two as ragdolls, and then overpowering a COMBINED Bijudama? Seriously, why wouldn't that be considered on Hashirama's level at all?


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> base hashirama already showed the ability to make 5 mokuton hands at once.
> 5 bijudama, 5 mokuton hands but base hashirama gets oneshotted by continuous bijudama?


only mokujin hands have been shown to catch bijuudamas, suppress a bijuu, and edge-catch a PS sword.

thus in no way do normal mokuton hands have the ability to catch bijuudamas and send them back like mokuryu can.

If hashirama could catch a bijuudama with mere mokuton hands, he wouldn't have needed to use mokujin in order to do it against Kurama.

And of course Hashirama still has no answer for a mountain-sized bijuudama.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto cant beat base hashirama. BM naruto cant compare to sm hashirama or push him past low diff.


Naruto most definitely can beat base Hashirama based on what Hashirama has shown in base.

BM Naruto can't beat SM Hashirama I agree.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I have to ask: Why isn't Naruto's feat against the Biju Paths considered on Hashirama's level? Curbstomping three outright, using two as ragdolls, and then overpowering a COMBINED Bijudama? Seriously, why wouldn't that be considered on Hashirama's level at all?


naruto needs to pull out his trump cards to beat the biju, hashirama tamed the majority of biju just by touching them with mokujin or absorbing their chakra with the mokuryu.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

I'm still not seeing how Hashirama deals with Naruto's Body Flicker. The one quicker than the RnY flicker, which is already capable of shitting on one of the post proficient Sharingan users in this Manga.

All it takes is an opening, and an FRS.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> only mokujin hands have been shown to catch bijuudamas and suppress a bijuu.
> 
> thus in no way do normal mokuton hands have the ability to catch bijuudamas and send them back like mokuryu can.
> 
> ...



the mokuton hands that hashirama summoned against kyuubi/susano are the size of the kyuubi and are many times bigger than the mokujin itself.

the mokujin caught bijudama with only 1 hand manifested. the body wasnt even manifested.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto needs to pull out his trump cards to beat the biju, hashirama tamed the majority of biju just by touching them with mokujin or absorbing their chakra with the mokuryu.


What trump card? How is a Bijudama a trump card when its Naruto's standard move when he can fucking form it with a partial transformation?

Hell even a mind-controlled Kurama made the Mokuryu its bitch and 'oh, Hashirama is stronger since he can do something only a select few people can'!


----------



## Sans (Apr 6, 2013)

How about people stop being bad.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the explosion from the madara combo covered about 20+ mountains. naruto+bee covered about 6 or 7. lets be realistic here.



That explosion was also a combined attack. The continuous Bijuudama along with Shinsuusenju's strikes.

And it still doesn't measure up to the explosion from Naruto's first Bijuudama.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What trump card? How is a Bijudama a trump card when its Naruto's standard move when he can fucking form it with a partial transformation?
> 
> Hell even a mind-controlled Kurama made the Mokuryu its bitch and 'oh, Hashirama is stronger since he can do something only a select few people can'!


stop with the senseless ranting. your post reeks of butthurt. narutos strongest move is the bijudama and that makes it his trump card. hashirama effortlessly tames the biju with a love tap.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

U mad bro said:


> Meh I wouldn't say Harishima is slower than Naruto. If anything outrunning that bijuudama/Susanoo gave him the best speed feat in the series. Until proven otherwise. Though  I think Naruto can Handle him by himself before the Statue comes out. Harishima would curb stomp him by himself with it.But he has impressive backup so Harishima has fight on his hand. Though he should win med-high difficulty. 1000 handss with susanoo level power yeah too much. They would have to kill him before the summoning.


Naruto speedblitzed five Bijudamas and slapped them away with just pure speed and strength. That's superior to any feat Hashirama has.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> stop with the senseless ranting. your post reeks of butthurt. narutos strongest move is the bijudama and that makes it his trump card. hashirama effortlessly tames the biju with a love tap.


Taming doesn't mean Hashirama could beat them all down as easily as Naruto. And its not butthurt when you're failing to acknowledge that 'taming isn't equal to defeating'.


----------



## The Prodigy (Apr 6, 2013)

Hashi's a huge troll man

might pull a moukton bushin outta nowhere n honestly, I wouldn't put it past him


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the mokuton hands that hashirama summoned against kyuubi/susano are the size of the kyuubi and are many times bigger than the mokujin itself.


that's not relevant as only the mokujin hands have been shown to have bijuudama catching, PS edge catching and Bijuu supressing abilities.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the mokujin caught bijudama with only 1 hand manifested. the body wasnt even manifested.


It doesn't matter if the whole body was manifested yet or not, it was the arm of a mokujin and not just a standard wood arm, thus standard wood arms do not get mokujin's bijuudama catching, ps edge catching and bijuu suppressing abilities.

If all of hashirama's wood techs could resist a bijuudama, then mokuryu wouldn't have been shattered by a bijuudama passing through it.


----------



## The Prodigy (Apr 6, 2013)

fuck

if Hashi decided to go balls out and use jutsu he did against Madara, on top of jutsu Madara used against the Gokage

I'm finding it pretty damn hard to see how team 7 takes this


----------



## αce (Apr 6, 2013)

> Naruto speedblitzed five Bijudamas and slapped them away with just pure speed and strength. That's superior to any feat Hashirama has.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That explosion was also a combined attack. The continuous Bijuudama along with Shinsuusenju's strikes.
> 
> And it still doesn't measure up to the explosion from Naruto's first Bijuudama.


madaras combo far surpasses narutos bijudama. the feat you're referring to is a combined attack from the majority of the biju and thus cant be accounted for.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

how is that statement not true?  Naruto speedblitzing the bijuudamas with a flash shunshin is greater than any physical speed or strength feat Hashirama has to date, no?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

Speed. FEAT. Thats what I meant. Dear god are you so against Naruto you can't even admit he has superior speed feats?!


----------



## Sans (Apr 6, 2013)

I think Team 7 might be able to take one Mukoton bunshin if they're lucky.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> madaras combo far surpasses narutos bijudama. the feat you're referring to is a combined attack from the majority of the biju and thus cant be accounted for.



the 'explosion' in the last chapter that you are referring to was created by the combined attack from the Kyuusanoo bijuudamas and moku buddah's jet gattling barrage.  Thus can't be accounted for.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> madaras combo far surpasses narutos bijudama. the feat you're referring to is a combined attack from the majority of the biju and thus cant be accounted for.


No, it doesn't. Naruto's Bijudama's have shown to be far larger and cover a far larger area.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> I think Team 7 might be able to take one Mukoton bunshin if they're lucky.



You can't be serious.


----------



## Sans (Apr 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You can't be serious.



You can't be serious.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> that's not relevant as only the mokujin hands have been shown to have bijuudama catching, *PS edge catching* and Bijuu supressing abilities.



the mokujin never did this. that was hashiramas wood release: hotei technique.



> It doesn't matter if the whole body was manifested yet or not, it was the arm of a mokujin and not just a standard wood arm, thus standard wood arms do not get mokujin's bijuudama catching, ps edge catching and bijuu suppressing abilities.
> 
> If all of hashirama's wood techs could resist a bijuudama, then mokuryu wouldn't have been shattered by a bijuudama passing through it.



i never said that all of hashiramas mokuton techs could resist bijudama. 

you're being ridiculous. hashiramas mokuton hotei technique was portrayed as being able to physically restrain the 100% kyuubi which the mokujin cant do and that would mean that the hands of the mokuton: hotei technique are stronger than the hands of the mokujin.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> You can't be serious.



Touch? **


----------



## Sans (Apr 6, 2013)

OKAY I CONCEDE.

They can beat one clone.

It's just Hashirama that stomps.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the mokujin never did this. that was hashiramas wood release: hotei technique.


The wood arms that edge catched were the arms of the technique hashirama hid in when the bijuudama went off.  They were not the same arms that popped up out of the ground in order to restrain 100% Kurama.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> i never said that all of hashiramas mokuton techs could resist bijudama.


yet you are saying any and all of hashirama's mokuton hands can catch a bijuudama because mokujin can do it.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you're being ridiculous. hashiramas mokuton hotei technique was portrayed as being able to physically restrain the 100% kyuubi which the mokujin cant do and that would mean that the hands of the mokuton: hotei technique are stronger than the hands of the mokujin.


Lol, Mokuryu has been portrayed as being able to physically restrain the 100% kyuubi and BM Naruto, yet what happens when a bijuudama hits it?  It gets obliterated by the dama merely passing through it.

No, Hashirama's mokuton arms do not get the feats of mokujin which has been the only mokuton technique shown to be able to catch a bijuudama and shove it back, in addition to the fact that later we see that it's hands have special bijuusuppressing properties that allow him to tame the kyuubi.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The wood arms that edge catched were the arms of the technique hashirama hid in when the bijuudama went off.  They were not the same arms that popped up out of the ground in order to restrain 100% Kurama.


the construct that hashirama hid in is just a defensive dome, nothing more. hashirama used the same jutsu specific seal to summon the hand that caught the PS sword and the hands that attempted to restrain the kyuubi.



> yet you are saying any and all of hashirama's mokuton hands can catch a bijuudama because mokujin can do it.


no im saying that a bigger and stronger hand can do something that a weaker and smaller hand can do.



> Lol, Mokuryu has been portrayed as being able to physically restrain the 100% kyuubi and BM Naruto, yet what happens when a bijuudama hits it?  It gets obliterated by the dama merely passing through it.


yeah the mokuryu can restrain biju with its long body. mokuton: hotei jutsu was portrayed to be able to restrain the kyuubi just with hands.


> No, Hashirama's mokuton arms do not get the feats of mokujin which has been the only mokuton technique shown to be able to catch a bijuudama and shove it back, in addition to the fact that later we see that it's *hands have special bijuusuppressing properties that allow him to tame the kyuubi.*


no it doesnt. hashirama used the same tech that yamato used to tame the 4 tailed kyuubi:


instead of using pillars, he channeled the technique through the hands of the mokujin.


----------



## The Prodigy (Apr 6, 2013)

Madara's just cruel when it comes to using those Moukton bushin

Hashi is straight devious with those things


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the construct that hashirama hid in is just a defensive dome, nothing more. hashirama used the same jutsu specific seal to summon the hand that caught the PS sword and the hands that attempted to restrain the kyuubi.


Nope, even the hands that caught the PS sword were different and Hashirama did no such seals before the arms popped out of the ground. The arms were clearly part of the mokuton construct that hashirama hid in.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no im saying that a bigger and stronger hand can do something that a weaker and smaller hand can do.


which of course is fallacious if the bigger and stronger hand does not have the specific properties that allows the smaller hand to do what it can do.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> yeah the mokuryu can restrain biju with its long body. mokuton: hotei jutsu was portrayed to be able to restrain the kyuubi just with hands.


yet despite being able to restrain a bijuu, mokuryu gets busted by a bijuudama, thus being able to physically restrain a bijuu is irrelevant to being able to resist or catch a bijuudama.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no it doesnt. hashirama used the same tech that yamato used to tame the 4 tailed kyuubi:
> 
> 
> instead of using pillars, he channeled the technique through the hands of the mokujin.


which makes mokujin and its palm all the more special in that the bijuu taming powers can be channeled through it, and thus in no way does mokujin's bijuu suppressing and bijuudama catching feats apply to wood hands.

Hashirama using mokujin to tame Kurama rather than just having mokuton buddah tame him either with his hand that had already grabbed Kurama or with his left hand goes to show that not even moku budah's giant arms have the same abilities as mokujin's, and so in no way do wood arms get mokujin's bijuudama catching and shoving feats.


----------



## Bonly (Apr 6, 2013)

I'd go with team 7 here. Naruto can give Sasuke and Kakashi some Kurama chakra and get the V1 chakra shroud. Hashi has no knowledge on Kamui, no knowledge on Ama(as well as we know), hasn't shown speed feats to not get hit by either of them. Unless Hashi uses a large amount of wood from the start, he could easily get taken out.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Nope, even the hands that caught the PS sword were different and Hashirama did no such seals before the arms popped out of the ground. *The arms were clearly part of the mokuton construct that hashirama hid in.*


too bad they werent. 
they were made by the hotei technique


> which of course is fallacious if the bigger and stronger hand does not have the specific properties that allows the smaller hand to do what it can do.


the hands of the mokujin have no special properties that allowed it to catch bijudama. thats just you speculating. it has regular hands. the hands that hashirama summoned to restrain the kyuubi are much bigger and stronger.



> yet despite being able to restrain a bijuu, mokuryu gets busted by a bijuudama, thus being able to physically restrain a bijuu is irrelevant to being able to resist or catch a bijuudama.


except you didnt counter what i said and are now grasping at straws. the hands of mokuton hotei jutsu are stronger than the mokujin through author portrayal. 

hands of hotei jutsu>hands of mokujin>bijudama.



> which makes mokujin and its palm all the more special in that the bijuu taming powers can be channeled through it, and thus in no way does mokujin's bijuu suppressing and bijuudama catching feats apply to wood hands.


all that says is biju suppression can be channeled through the mokujin. you're making mountains out of mole hills. the hands of the mokujin are just regular hands unless hashirama channels jutsu through them.


> Hashirama using mokujin to tame Kurama rather than just having mokuton buddah tame him either with his hand that had already grabbed Kurama or with his left hand goes to show that not even moku budah's giant arms have the same abilities as mokujin's, and so in no way do wood arms get mokujin's bijuudama catching and shoving feats.


the mokujins hands are just regular hands until hashirama does jutsu with it.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> too bad they werent.
> they were made by the hotei technique


concession accepted on this point as you have given no evidence that they were made by the hotei technique, you are simply restating a defeated stance and ignoring my argument about the differences in size and appearance of the edge catching hands and the 5 giant hands.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the hands of the mokujin have no special properties that allowed it to catch bijudama. thats just you speculating. it has regular hands. the hands that hashirama summoned to restrain the kyuubi are much bigger and stronger.


Concession accepted as I have given evidence that show the hands do have special properties and your only counterargument is merely restating your defeated stance.  I have given an argument for why the mokuton hands do have special properties while you have just ignored it and simply stated "no they don't"



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> except you didnt counter what i said and are now grasping at straws. the hands of mokuton hotei jutsu are stronger than the mokujin through author portrayal.


concession accepted as once again you ignore my argument and merely re-assert your initial assertion that I have addressed already.  I have shown that bigger and stronger is irrelevant to having the properties necessary to catch and stop a bijuudama.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> hands of hotei jutsu>hands of mokujin>bijudama.


concession accepted as I have already addressed this point and you once again are merely restating your initial assertion that I have countered.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> all that says is biju suppression can be channeled through the mokujin. you're making mountains out of mole hills. the hands of the mokujin are just regular hands unless hashirama channels jutsu through them.


Concession accepted on this point as once again, you are merely restating your initial assertion that I have countered by my argument.  i have shown you that in no way are the mokujin hands regular hands as if they were, Hashirama wouldn't have had to create one in order to send the bijuudama back at kurama and he wouldn't have had to use mokujin to suppress Kurama, he could have used his mokubuda who was already grabbing kurama.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the mokujins hands are just regular hands until hashirama does jutsu with it.


concession accepted on this point as you once again are merely making an assertion backed by no canonical evidence and not addressing my counterarguments for your assertion. 

All of your "counterarguments" have just been ignoring my own arguments and faithfully restating the phrase "they are just regular  hands" despite no argument given for such.  And ignored argument is a tacitly conceded one, and thus you have tacitly conceded all the above arguments.


The fact is that Mokujin arms are the only ones that have caught and sent a bijuudama back at Kurama.  If Hashirama could have done so with a simple wood arm, he would have done so, but instead opts to create the entire mokujin in order to do so.  That phenomina requires an explanation and in order for your argument to work, you would have to ignore that happening entirely which is concessionary ignorance.

Next, Hashirama not only used the hotei technique after he edge caught, but the hands of the hotei technique were not only different sized but were of different form of the hands that edge caught PS's slash. In addition to all of that, that hands that edge caught are perfectly simetrical in regards to the mokuton face he was hiding in which ones again reaffirms the hands are part of the technique that guarded him and not part of the hotei tech.

And finally we have the feat of Hashirama requiring mokujin's hand to suppress Kurama, which is something that not even his giant mokuton buddah could do.  Thus it shows that in no way are mokujin's feats applicable to standard wood arms or even mokubuddah.


If you want to extrapolate Hashirama's feats beyond what the manga canon has given him, then do the same for BM Naruto.  If any of Hashirama's mokuton arms can catch bijuudamas despite the fact that they have not been shown to do so, and evidence suggests that they can't, then Naruto's BM clones can use full Kurama's avatar and do rapidfire bijuudamas and super bijuudamas despite them not not having been shown to do so.  

And thus the result is the same: that BM Naruto beats base hashirama just as easily as if we didn't extrapolate both of their abilities.

The extrapolation of feats works both ways and if you only extrapolate Hashirama's abilities, then it's a blatant double standard and thus a concession on your part.


----------



## blk (Apr 7, 2013)

While powered up, Kakashi was able to use two Kamui, with one being able to warp the entire Hachibi; and this without the cloack.

If he has the cloack, it is a certain that the warped area would be much bigger (and even without the cloack, it is not a stretch to think that Kakashi can warp the entire head of the buddha, for example).
Further, Naruto can continuously recharge and power up Kakashi if he fails in his attempts to warp Hashirama.

I don't know how Hashirama is supposed to deal with such power.




Rocky said:


> The explosion was alot more powerful than _anything_ Madara has done man. The sheer size of the actual Bijuudama should tell you that.
> 
> Shinsuusenju collapsed pretty much right after subduing the Kyuubi. Unless you think Hashirama deactivated it for some reason.



What stops Hashirama from grabbing the Bijuudama and throwing it away?


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> concession accepted on this point as you have given no evidence that they were made by the hotei technique, you are simply restating a defeated stance and ignoring my argument about the differences in size and appearance of the edge catching hands and the 5 giant hands.


all you said is that "its obvious that they were a part of the wood construct that hashirama made". the hand that hashirama made to block the PS blade and the ones that attempted to restrain the kyuubi were made with the same technique specific seal.



> Concession accepted as I have given evidence that show the hands do have special properties and your only counterargument is merely restating your defeated stance.  I have given an argument for why the mokuton hands do have special properties while you have just ignored it and simply stated "no they don't"


you are stating nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument. the hands have never been shown to have special properties unless hashirama channels jutsu through them. you need proof that they do when they havent.



> concession accepted as once again you ignore my argument and merely re-assert your initial assertion that I have addressed already.  I have shown that bigger and stronger is irrelevant to having the properties necessary to catch and stop a bijuudama.


now this is just your pathetic fanfiction. the hands were never shown to have speial properties when hashirama isnt using jutsu through them. when hashirama caught the bijudama, he merely manifested a mokuton hand. nothing more, nothing less.



> concession accepted as I have already addressed this point and you once again are merely restating your initial assertion that I have countered.


no, you just keep changing the subject and stating your opinion. mokujin hands are just regular hands. hashirama channeling jutsu through them have nothing to do with their strength and its irrelevant.



> Concession accepted on this point as once again, you are merely restating your initial assertion that I have countered by my argument.  i have shown you that in no way are the mokujin hands regular hands as if they were, Hashirama wouldn't have had to create one in order to send the bijuudama back at kurama and he wouldn't have had to use mokujin to suppress Kurama, he could have used his mokubuda who was already grabbing kurama.


hashirama using the mokujin to suppress the kyuubi is irrelevant. mokujin doesnt have this ability. its when hashirama channels jutsu through it. mokujin is a simple wood human construct.
hashirama didnt create an entire mokujin to catch bijudama. he merely did it with 1 manifested hand. the mokujin wasnt out yet.



> concession accepted on this point as you once again are merely making an assertion backed by no canonical evidence and not addressing my counterarguments for your assertion.


you're argument isnt backed up by canon evidence. all you're saying is "hashirama can channel jutsu through the mokujin so that somehow affects its physical strength".


> All of your "counterarguments" have just been ignoring my own arguments and faithfully restating the phrase "they are just regular  hands" despite no argument given for such.  And ignored argument is a tacitly conceded one, and thus you have tacitly conceded all the above arguments.


they are just regular hands. you havent given proof to how they're special when hashirama isnt channeling jutsu through them.



> The fact is that Mokujin arms are the only ones that have caught and sent a bijuudama back at Kurama.  If Hashirama could have done so with a simple wood arm, he would have done so, but instead opts to create the entire mokujin in order to do so.  That phenomina requires an explanation and in order for your argument to work, you would have to ignore that happening entirely which is concessionary ignorance.


no, a regular mokuton arm caught bijudama. hashirama did indeed only manifest a mokuton hand to catch bijudama. you basically proved me right.


> Next, Hashirama not only used the hotei technique after he edge caught, but the hands of the hotei technique were not only different sized but were of different form of the hands that edge caught PS's slash. In addition to all of that, that hands that edge caught are perfectly simetrical in regards to the mokuton face he was hiding in which ones again reaffirms the hands are part of the technique that guarded him and not part of the hotei tech.


um no. hashirama can make any wood style jutsu pop out of any mokuton construct he already has out. just like when he manifested a simple mokuton hand from a branch in jukai koutan to catch the bijudama.


> And finally we have the feat of Hashirama requiring mokujin's hand to suppress Kurama, which is something that not even his giant mokuton buddah could do.  Thus it shows that in no way are mokujin's feats applicable to standard wood arms or even mokubuddah.


how is hashirama channeling biju suppression through mokujin relevant to the mokujin merely catching bijudama with brute strength alone and with hands that are smaller and less powerful than the hands of the hotei jutsu?


> If you want to extrapolate Hashirama's feats beyond what the manga canon has given him, then do the same for BM Naruto.  If any of Hashirama's mokuton arms can catch bijuudamas despite the fact that they have not been shown to do so, and evidence suggests that they can't, then Naruto's BM clones can use full Kurama's avatar and do rapidfire bijuudamas and super bijuudamas despite them not not having been shown to do so.


evidence says that hashirama merely manifested a mokuton hand to catch bijudama so stronger and bigger mokuton hands do the same.


> And thus the result is the same: that hashirama beats BM naruto easily.


thanks for agreeing.


> The extrapolation of feats works both ways and if you only extrapolate Hashirama's abilities, then it's a blatant double standard and thus a concession on your part.


nobody is extrapolating feats(except you). i merely stated that a mokuton hand was able to catch bijudama so 5 mokuton hands would catch every bijudama from the continuous bijudama.


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## Stermor (Apr 7, 2013)

full powered kyuubi has larger bijuu dama's then half power kyuubi.. that is not all that weird.. 

but really what has the power of a bijuu dama to with beating hashi.. who can pick them up and throw bijuudamas away.. 

also lol at amaterasu doing jack shit to a statue capable of draining enough chakra for the kyuubi to feel it.. amaterasu even powered by the kyuubi is going to instantly be absorbed.. 

look the only option is beeing able to kamui hashirama.. but even with the cloak.. the statue is way bigger then even the hachibi.. and well you really think kakashi can kamui the statue while also dodging the 1000 hands blocking his vision.. 

hashirama is superior to team 7 by quite a bit..


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## IchLiebe (Apr 7, 2013)

Stermor said:


> full powered kyuubi has larger bijuu dama's then half power kyuubi.. that is not all that weird..



The kyuubi's chakra was sealed in Shiki fujin. As that seal has been broken and everything in it let out, we saw that the kyuubi's chakra wasn't in there. So the kyuubi has had all of it's chakra back for a while.


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## Lurko (Apr 7, 2013)

So much naruto wank in the thread, team 7 wins but with teamwork and it won't be easy.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> all you said is that "its obvious that they were a part of the wood construct that hashirama made". the hand that hashirama made to block the PS blade and the ones that attempted to restrain the kyuubi were made with the same technique specific seal.


in no way is that all I said, debate honestly.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you are stating nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument. the hands have never been shown to have special properties unless hashirama channels jutsu through them. you need proof that they do when they havent.


namecalling my arguments is not an argument.  I have given arguments that you have not countered that provide evidence for the hands having special properties.  You on the other hand just assert that they do not.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> now this is just your pathetic fanfiction. the hands were never shown to have speial properties when hashirama isnt using jutsu through them. when hashirama caught the bijudama, he merely manifested a mokuton hand. nothing more, nothing less.


once again, I have given an argument and yours simply ignores mine and restates your own.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no, you just keep changing the subject and stating your opinion. mokujin hands are just regular hands. hashirama channeling jutsu through them have nothing to do with their strength and its irrelevant.
> 
> 
> hashirama using the mokujin to suppress the kyuubi is irrelevant. mokujin doesnt have this ability. its when hashirama channels jutsu through it. mokujin is a simple wood human construct.
> hashirama didnt create an entire mokujin to catch bijudama. he merely did it with 1 manifested hand. the mokujin wasnt out yet.


Once again, you simply restate your assertion, but ignore the evidence my argument brings to the table.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you're argument isnt backed up by canon evidence. all you're saying is "hashirama can channel jutsu through the mokujin so that somehow affects its physical strength".
> 
> they are just regular hands. you havent given proof to how they're special when hashirama isnt channeling jutsu through them.


blatant strawmanning my arguments and not addressing them like before.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no, a regular mokuton arm caught bijudama. hashirama did indeed only manifest a mokuton hand to catch bijudama. you basically proved me right.


once again, restating an defeated assertion and ignoring my argument.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> um no. hashirama can make any wood style jutsu pop out of any mokuton construct he already has out. just like when he manifested a simple mokuton hand from a branch in jukai koutan to catch the bijudama.


once again, completely ignoring my argument and just stating an assertion without supporting it with any evidence.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> how is hashirama channeling biju suppression through mokujin relevant to the mokujin merely catching bijudama with brute strength alone and with hands that are smaller and less powerful than the hands of the hotei jutsu?


Once again, completely ignoring my arguments for why mokujin can catch a bijuudama and send it back.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> evidence says that hashirama merely manifested a mokuton hand to catch bijudama so stronger and bigger mokuton hands do the same.


once again, completely ignoring my arguments and merely restating an assertion.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> thanks for agreeing.
> 
> nobody is extrapolating feats(except you). i merely stated that a mokuton hand was able to catch bijudama so 5 mokuton hands would catch every bijudama from the continuous bijudama.


And once again, completely ignoring my arguments and restating a defeated assertion.  I have shown via manga evidence that mokujin hands have special properties even compared to mokuton buddah, and since the mokujin is the only mokuton that has been shown to be able to catch a bijuudama and send it back, then normal mokuton arms no matter how big do not get that ability.

thus giving normal mokuton arms the ability to do something that mokujin has only been shown to do is equivalent to giving Naruto's BM clones the abilities that the original has only been shown to do, and thus Hashirama would STILL lose if we play your extrapolation of feats game since he's up against waves of 20 rapidfire bijuudamas instead of only 5.

Every single one of 'responses' has completely ignored my arguments and simply restated a baseless or already countered assertion on your part.

And thus since an ignored argument is a conceded one, I accept your concession in this thread and thus mokujin arms are the only arms that can in fact catch a bijuudama.  Which leads to base Hashirama losing to BM Naruto.

If you seriously were after truth, or an honest debate, you wouldn't simply strawman or ignore my arguments and restate an assertion of yours that I have already countered.  However that's all you have been doing.  If you later on decide you want to debate this topic honestly and objectively, then attack the points that I have made instead of restating arguments that I have already countered because an ignored argument is a conceded one.


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Has anyone addressed Naruto's speed? The guy moves faster than Ei, who moves faster than Sasuke's Sharingan can follow. Given the opportunity, Naruto can end this with a well timed flicker - one untraceable to Hashirama's Sharingan-less eyes - and a pointblank Rasenshurkien or CMB.



It is implied that Hashirama is a sensor via mokuton jutsu, since Zetsu gained his abilities straight from Hashi, and Yamato showed similiar Earth sensing, not to mention his reaction skills are top tier level which should allow him to react(like he did to a Bjuu bomb mid combat, once he goes SM he also gains the leisure of danger sensing.

Hashirama has the abilities to win this fight but I believe it's Naruto's power sharing that gives Team 7 the win.
-Kakashi can kamui atleast 5 times, along with many Raiton jutsu/clones
-Sakura can smash things and heal an injured players. ALL DAY
-Sasuke just shits on things all day with EMS V1 Cloak and can burn the field out of existence, also ama gives him lee way to use Kirin.
-Naruto spams Rasengan's and TBB's at Hashi and this match ends.

The Budhha statue I'm if on, but if Madara could do damage to it and survive I don't see it killing sasuke's susano, and Naruto's Kyuubi bjuu cloak.

Team 7 High Diff


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> It is implied that Hashirama is a sensor via mokuton jutsu, since Zetsu gained his abilities straight from Hashi, and Yamato showed similiar Earth sensing, not to mention his reaction skills are top tier level which should allow him to react(like he did to a Bjuu bomb mid combat, once he goes SM he also gains the leisure of danger sensing.



React in what way?

We saw that a Shadow clone's flicker closed a massive distance and nearly got the best of Madara, who was most likely saved by the precognition of the Sharingan, and his handy gunbai.

This match is going to be chaos. All Naruto needs is a tiny opening to utilize that Shunshin of his and get in close for a game ending Rasenshuriken. Unlike Madara, Hashi doesn't have a Sharingan to help him keep track of Naruto's roof-tier flicker. Even if this pseudo-sensing Base Hashi has helps him somewhat follow Naruto, he doesn't have a fan or Susano'o to reflect Naruto's attack. 

His Mokuton techniques are too slow. Naruto is faster than Madara, and Shodai isn't weaving handseals and erupting Mokuton beasts in response to Naruto's _speedy_ _attacks_. He can't block it with a quick defense like Susano'o or Uchihagaeshi.....because doesn't have any. He could try to dodge, but Naruto can redirect FRS; he's hit faster opponents with the thing that Hashirama.

It's a very quick & efficient way to take Shodai down, preferably before Sage Mode. A distraction, a flicker, and an attack Hashirama can't do anything about from close range.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 7, 2013)

Naruto can make sure Sakura and Kakashi can hold their own by powering them up, whilst increasing Sauske's efficiency.

Wood clones don't work on a Sage who can sense and a Jinchuriki who can sense emotions and chakra. I.E. Naruto will be able to see through any feints. 

I think those are points worth noting when calling the fight.


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## Kai (Apr 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> of course there is PIS for an in character match.  If naruto opts to wrestle the wood dragon despite being able to simply nuke it with zero difficulty, then it's blatant PIS as his actions are completely contradictory to his goals.


Then make fixes on your interpretation because in character is how the character would perform in the manga, and it's canon that Naruto will have to struggle against the Mokuton Dragon.

Maybe Naruto would get countered easier if he opted for bijuudama off the bat. You don't get to decide what difficulties are involved with that.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> going by your logic, Edo madara loses to rock lee as he will not do anything as lee comes charging at him and bisects him with a kick.


Tell us how that makes him lose?



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> What jutsus that are able to defeat Naruto?  Mokuryuu gets easily destroyed by a bijuudama.  Mokujin gets destroyed by 2 or 3 since it only has 2 hands.  a bijuudama clears out 99% of the mokuton within its blast radius.


Hardly. Hashirama has displayed using Mokuton Dragon and Mokuton: Mokujin no jutsu almost simultaneously and his Houdi no Jutsu defended from its point blank shockwave and impact. 

This is _Base_ Hashirama.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> Triple rashoumon was defeated by a KN4 bijuudama, a single rapidfire bijuudama's blast would encompass all 5 of them.


Why are you making implicit associations from triple to five when we have *directly* witnessed Quintuple Rashomon successfully redirect Perfect Susano'o Kyuubi's bijuudama ?



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> Base Hashirama has litterally no answer for rapidfire bijuudama and super bijuudama.


Quintuple Rashomon, Mokuton: Mokujin no Jutsu, Mokuton: Houdi no Jutsu.

Hashirama has caught bijuudama and used it in return, defended from its sheer impact point blank, and redirected a much more powerful and concentrated bijuudama magatama combination.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> I have no idea where you get "sit on those bijuudamas or straight up block them" when every single one of hashirama's base jutsus are destroyed by simply being within the blast radius of a bijuudama bar the defensive one that hashirama used to survive.


He handled those bijuudamas in base.

In Sage Mode using those _same jutsu_, the bijuudamas would be shit on.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> What edge did they have?  Even with massive PIS on Naruto's part, he still busted the wood dragon.  Without PIS or with his current manga knowledge of the tech, he nukes it with zero diff.  Hashirama "fended" off 1 bijuudama from Kyuusanoo, and he did that by changing the course of the dama with his rashoumon gates due to the dama having the PS blade in it.  Had it been a raw dama, it would have exploded on the gates, taking all 5 of them out.


Seriously, enough with your PIS nonsense and gripe just because you can't fathom in character proceedings of the manga.

Do you see anyone complaining about Madara and Tobito's Rinnegan capabilities in the BD anymore? Very rarely do your hopes for Naruto's abilities fall in line with how he performs in the manga. 



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> And I'll tell you like I told ace, BM Naruto =/= Kurama, BM Naruto has massive advantages over Kurama.


And BM Naruto =/= Susano'o Kurama. Susano'o Kurama has massive advantages over BM Naruto.


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