# Heath Ledger (Joker) vs Mark Hammil (Joker)



## Gone (Jul 25, 2012)

1) Which played a better Joker?

2) (So this dosnt get locked) Who wins in a slap fight?


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## Gone (Jul 25, 2012)

IMO Legder gave a better preformance in TDK than any single Hammil preformance. But Hammil is more iconic in the roll, so if you take their entire history Hammil may be better. Hammils laugh is also pretty damn hard to compete with.


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## strongarm85 (Jul 25, 2012)

Hammil's Joker is the definition of Classic Joker for our generation. Although Ledger's joker is fairly original.

I'd give it to Hammil

In a slap fight, easily Hammil's Joker.


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 25, 2012)

Hammil is what made the Joker it is today, for example that Iconic laugh/Personality is what Ledger and the VA who took over Joker from Hammil try to base their own interpretation of the character on.


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## Xiammes (Jul 25, 2012)

I'll pick the one thats still alive.


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## Solar (Jul 25, 2012)

While I did like Ledger's rendition of the Joker, I can't pick against Hammil's solely due to the iconic laugh. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing the Joker portrayed in other shows and movies in a similar fashion to Ledger's. 

In a slap fight: something tells me they wouldn't be hitting each other with just their hands. Toxic gas ball vs a pencil maybe.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 25, 2012)

Heaths Joker does not compare...and is not superior

man died four years ago..the wank should end


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## Violent by Design (Jul 25, 2012)

I enjoy Ledgers Joker more, and lol at Hamill inventing the Jokers laugh. not true at all.


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## Emperor Joker (Jul 25, 2012)

While I greatly enjoyed Ledger's version of the Joker, Hamill is still a good deal better than him in my opinion

in terms of a straight up fight though...probably Hamil Joker


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jul 25, 2012)

This...this is _hard_.

I thought Heath did an excellent job as the maniacal but brilliant version of The Joker, whereas Mark Hammil doing The Joker is Mark Hammil doing The Joker.

I'd say Mark takes both for me simply due to being more of an icon.


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## Fang (Jul 25, 2012)

>        Hammil

Never heard of him


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## DestinyDestroyer (Jul 25, 2012)

Jack Nicholson


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## mali (Jul 25, 2012)

Heath Ledger by far.

Dont know what Mark Hamil did that makes him seem so iconic to yall.


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## Narcissus (Jul 25, 2012)

Hamill's Joker.

Hamill's voice fit the character perfectly, and his version of the Joker's laughter was amazing. Not to mention that that version of the Joker was significantly more dangerous than Ledger's.


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## mali (Jul 25, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> [YOUTUBE]gBWpWwIBKw[/YOUTUBE]



.......and your point is?


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## Xiammes (Jul 25, 2012)

That Ledger did a mediocre job while Mark Hammil will be known forever as the voice as Joker. This shit is etched in stone.


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Jul 25, 2012)

I think mediocre job is going a bit too far.  Didn't he win best actor?  Beyond that I thought his performance was very good, and certainly the best thing about the Nolan trilogy.  I'd say for the first it's tied, and for the second Hammil Joker rapes.  Animated Joker has laughing gas and just in general a more dangerous arsenal.


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## Gone (Jul 25, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Heaths Joker does not compare...and is not superior
> 
> man died four years ago..the wank should end



Your confusing wank with apreciation of quality. I could just as easily say people are wanking Hammil because of childhood nostalgia. People may make a big deal about Ledgers Joker with it happening right before his death. But it was an awesome roll, that he clearly went balls deep in.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2012)

he wont best Actor because he died...because he's attached to Nolans monstrosity.."realistic" naw..no

Marks Joker all the way



Ryjacork said:


> Your confusing wank with apreciation of quality. I could just as easily say people are wanking Hammil because of childhood nostalgia. People may make a big deal about Ledgers Joker with it happening right before his death. But it was an awesome roll, that he clearly went balls deep in.



You aren't qualified to lecture about quality Ryj


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## OS (Jul 26, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> *That Ledger did a mediocre job* while Mark Hammil will be known forever as the voice as Joker.This shit is etched in stone.



Die.

Both are great either way. Hammil praised ledgers performance.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jul 26, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> he wont best Actor because he died...because he's attached to Nolans monstrosity.."realistic" naw..no
> 
> Marks Joker all the way
> 
> ...



Isn't it _extremely_ rare for someone to win Best Actor posthumously?


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## Fang (Jul 26, 2012)

No, only for a supporting role is it rare for an actor or actress. Just like a posthumous promotion is given in respect in the military. Their generally handed out to actors or actresses out of respect and intention then merit, cynical but its a fact. That simple.

 Its not like his acting was THAT good, just the fact that he's the first or at least one of the few to receive it solely for a supporting role in a film.


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## HunterChairmanNetero (Jul 26, 2012)

I like both, but... how can I possibly pick against Hammil? The guy's a LEGEND! 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm_GPkOfVKI&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Isn't it _extremely_ rare for someone to win Best Actor posthumously?



and how many Actors delivered career defining performances before dying? I'm pretty sure that's a small list..

People treated Ledgers performance like it was comparable to Jacks or to Robert Mitchums break out villain role..(IIRC both are on the AFI list) 

it wasn't and I wasn't even sure I was watching the joker..he was an awesome antagonist but that wasn't trail blazing..he made a great movie greater..but too much hype

edit: Fang also makes a good point for a supporting role


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jul 26, 2012)

Fair enough.

Just to clear things up, I wasn't saying Ledger was the better Joker. I had just heard that posthumous awards were very rare.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 26, 2012)

I... I really can't decide. I'd say Ledger's is the better character but Hammil's is the better Joker, although both did very well.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 26, 2012)

Ledger was > Nicholson for me .. though Jack was damn good too


still Hamill ftw


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Heaths Joker does not compare...and is not superior
> 
> man died four years ago..the wank should end



It is not a case of wank  some people prefer the less cartoonish Joker.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 26, 2012)

MH Joker>JD Joker>=Ledger Joker for me. Mark's Joker blows the rest in evil laugh easily. Nicholson Joker was'nt bad either.


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## mali (Jul 26, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> he wont best Actor because he died...because he's attached to Nolans monstrosity.."realistic" naw..no



As much as youd like to right off Ledgers recognition in the role as pity for death, you cant. Stop while your ahead.


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## Gone (Jul 26, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> You aren't qualified to lecture about quality Ryj



Yea caus everything mainstream OBD = quality right? 

No dont make a dumb comment, then when your called out on it say that the person who called you out "isnt quallified". Whos the authority on that, you? Anybody around here? No.

Ledger delivered an awesome preformance, he brought the Joker to life, like nobody ever had before on the live action screen. Maybe Hammils better, but dont call it wank that people still love Ledgers preformance years later. And dont be one of those assholes who says that people only liked it so much because he died right after.


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## Plague (Jul 26, 2012)

I liked Ledger, he was really awesome in that movie, but Hammil will always be my original. Gotta give my vote to him. Plus, I love his laughs lol.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb8fWUUXeKM[/YOUTUBE]


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jul 26, 2012)

it's _*hamill*_ people


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2012)

Gunners said:


> It is not a case of wank  some people prefer the less cartoonish Joker.



I'm sure they do..but Joker proper has kinda always been...mm Cartoonish is probably the nicest way to put it

a scenery chewing over the top massive ham..would be it too even when he's really menacing like in the killing joke

I liked Ledger.. the guy did work but that wasn't the Joker..



Ryjacork said:


> Yea caus everything mainstream OBD = quality right?



well, gee see now I wasn't running in here sporting the usual memes merely pointing out that given your history..ya kinda aren't

but nice going for the hive mind



Ryjacork said:


> No dont make a dumb comment, then when your called out on it say that the person who called you out "isnt quallified". Whos the authority on that, you? Anybody around here? No.



only you never called me out.. you merely ranted




Ryjacork said:


> Ledger delivered an awesome preformance, *he brought the Joker to life, like nobody ever had before on the live action screen*. Maybe Hammils better, but dont call it wank that people still love Ledgers preformance years later. And dont be one of those assholes who says that people only liked it so much because he died right after.



WAHAHAHAHAHAHA

no that'd be Cesar Romero...and then Jack Nicholson



ThanatoSeraph said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Just to clear things up, I wasn't saying Ledger was the better Joker. I had just heard that posthumous awards were very rare.



I know but I was offering some clarification amigo


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## Alten (Jul 26, 2012)

This is defined in the opinion of each one nothing more.

[YOUTUBE]0MrZgZCOUnM[/YOUTUBE]


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 26, 2012)

Every movie Joker and the Adam West Joker had a select few aspects and characteristics of the Joker. Hammil in Batman TAS explored more into the character as the show went on. This is why to me he is more Iconic of them all.


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## BrokenBonds (Jul 26, 2012)

Honestly, it's like what someone said before, Ledger's character was better but he wasn't really the Joker.


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## KaiserWombat (Jul 26, 2012)

What I've learned from this thread:

- Apparently people like to masturbate to the corpse of Heath Ledger
- People cannot spell Mark Hamill's name correctly
- The OBD is a cesspool

2 original facts out of 3, very bountiful reap today!


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## Fang (Jul 26, 2012)

OBD 2012 man


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## mali (Jul 26, 2012)

These "my opinion>your opinion" threads are always a real delight.


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## OS (Jul 26, 2012)

So can everyone agree that Nolan's characters are good characters but they are not like their comic book counterparts. (Most noticeable for me is Bane.)


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm really not sure what to think about movie Bane....


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 26, 2012)

I could barely hear him at times.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 26, 2012)

That was kind of annoying, but his voice was so... awesome.
I don't know, he was a pretty interesting villain, but he sure wasn't Bane. And honestly, I thought this movie clashed heavily with the more realistic (relatively at least) first two movies.


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## RandomLurker (Jul 26, 2012)

Mark Hamill has always been my favorite Joker actor.

Plus you have the extra mindfuck of Luke Skywalker being the Joker


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## Gone (Jul 26, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> well, gee see now I wasn't running in here sporting the usual memes merely pointing out that given your history..ya kinda aren't



Again says who? The fact that Ive had a clashing history with some of the older crowd around here means my opinion of quality dosnt count for as much?

Idk how you can say that then follow it up with that hive mind stuff.



> but nice going for the hive mind



Im so sick of people bringing that up. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not there is such a thing as opinion mypoia in any community, especially on the internet, and the OBD is no exception. Somebody bringing it up dosnt mean there spouting off about this hive mind conspiracy bullshit.



> only you never called me out.. you merely ranted



I didnt rant, I just said that it wasnt wank that people apreciate the quality of Ledgers roll.



> WAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> no that'd be Cesar Romero...and then Jack Nicholson



Neither of them compare. Nicholson delivered an ok preformance, but Ledger blew him out of the water. The only part that I thought were really good with the Burton Joker was the death laugh he gave at the end, and that whole "wait till they get a load of me" line.

And you misread what I was saying. I never said that nobody played the Joker live action before, I said nobody had ever done it on the calibur of what Heath Ledger did with the roll in TDK.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 26, 2012)

Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight ?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Again says who? The fact that Ive had a clashing history with some of the older crowd around here means my opinion of quality dosnt count for as much?[



your clashing with the old guard is as relevant to me as what some random dude on the street had for lunch...no my declaration of your lack of qualification has more do with your at times poor taste and mind numbingly poor judgment


Ryjacork said:


> Idk how you can say that then follow it up with that hive mind stuff.



did you just seriously pull what I think you did?



Ryjacork said:


> Im so sick of people bringing that up. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not there is such a thing as opinion mypoia in any community, especially on the internet, and the OBD is no exception. Somebody bringing it up dosnt mean there spouting off about this hive mind conspiracy bullshit.



you're right..yet your one of the few hold outs who seem to think there is 




Ryjacork said:


> I didnt rant, I just said that it wasnt wank that people apreciate the quality of Ledgers roll.



and Ledgers role was as thin and cardboard as Tomy Hardy's in that they were nothing but thinly veiled mouth pieces for whatever strawman the director wanted to rant about in that movie...

Where as Nicholsons character was a genuinely depraved psychopath who terrorized Gotham and almost gassed the entire city and who's terrorism unlike Ledger actually did reach multiple cities




Ryjacork said:


> Neither of them compare.



you're right they are completely and utterly beyond Ledgers mouth piece




Ryjacork said:


> And you misread what I was saying. I never said that nobody played the Joker live action before, I said nobody had ever done it on the calibur of what Heath Ledger did with the roll in TDK.



and you'd be massively full of shit



Fluttershy said:


> Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight ?



this


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## Gone (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm still utterly amazed that there are still people out there that actually think that Nicholsons Jpker was better than Ledgers. Similarity to canon and writing aside, I don't even think there can be a debate as to who delivered a better performance. Nevermind that the first Batman was stylized shit just like 90% of Tim Burton's other movies.

Anyway subjective opinions aside, what have I ever done or said in the past that makes you say I have bad taste? Nevermind the stupidity of anybody trying to pretend their idea of taste = the authority of quality.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2012)

Nicholson ran circles around Ledger

that however is hardly Ledgers fault man did his best with what he was given..but considering both he and Bane were author mouth pieces for Nolan


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 26, 2012)

They all bow before this guy


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## Gone (Jul 26, 2012)

Way to ignore my question about wtf you think there is in my history that means I have bad taste.

Anyway as far as the other thing goes, it's a subjective matter. A lot of people, including myself think that Nolan's gritty, more realistic, down to earth characters, work better on screen than the originals. Some things in comic books just don't translate well on the big screen.

And this is getting way off topic. This all started because you said appreciation of Ledgers Joker was wank, which I called out as bullshit, and then you started pulling strawman crap, attacking my credibility and taste, and brining up things from the past (which you have yet to back up). Any legit critic who's seen the movie has praised Ledgers/Nolan's Joke. Even Jack Nicholson himself said Ledger did a better job than him, so even if you personally didn't like it, it's not wank.


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## Matta Clatta (Jul 26, 2012)

Well even Nicholson said Ledger was better than him so at the end of the day he's going to be regarded as the best live action portrayal of the joker.
Hamill had his voice down but the cartoon never really had as powerful or as threatening a presence as Ledger's joker. 
To me it comes down to what is more scary about the character. Ledger did a better job of showcasing his sociopath nature vs Hamill just playing him as an obsessed manic villain.

It should be telling that Ledger borrowed nothing from Hamill's performance to bring the character to life. He just did his own thing and has all but defined the joker in pop culture for the last 4 years.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Way to ignore my question about wtf you think there is in my history that means I have bad taste.



it does..



Ryjacork said:


> Anyway as far as the other thing goes, it's a subjective matter. A lost of people, including myself think that Nolan's gritty, more realistic, down to earth characters, work better on screen than the originals. Some things in comic books just don't translate well on the big screen.


\

you and those other people can go and rent Reservoir dogs, or scarface or Shindlers list..if you want dark and psychological and realistic

and stop fucking watching comic book movies..because their primary canon isn't realistic for shit and neither should be the movies.. and the rest of the fandom doesn't need to sit through more "durr hurr realistic/author avatarism" comic book movie reboots..

there's a genre or two out there for you guys..go familiarize yourselves with it



Ryjacork said:


> And this is getting way off topic. This all started because you said appreciation f Ledgers Joker was wank, which I called out as bullshit, and then you started pulling strawman crap, attacking my credibility and taste, and brining up things from the past (which you have yet to back up). Any legit critic who's seen the movie has praised Ledgers/Nolan's Joker, so even if you personally didn't like it, it's not wank.



only because he's a corpse..its the same reason a certain famous and legendary figure is revered a demi god despite being a drug abusing mentally unstable person who may or may not have molested kids...

oh wait no..Micheal Jackson actually deserves his worship..he actually did something impactfull that will forever alter the face of music..for generations

Ledger on the other hand put out a great performance as some menacingly insane bad guy who cosplayed as his favorite batman villain while terrorizing a city





Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> They all bow before this guy




This..seriously Romero is the trend setter even Mark and Jack borrowed elements from him


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jul 26, 2012)

I love Ledger's Joker, but Hamill's is just out of his weight class.

I also liked whoever played Joker in Under the Red Hood, but no name is coming to mind.


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## Gone (Jul 26, 2012)

You still havnt said what you think there is in my history that says I have bad taste. Dont be a pussy dude, you made the comment now back it up or admit your full of shit.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you and those other people can go and rent Reservoir dogs, or scarface or Shindlers list..if you want dark and psychological and realistic
> 
> and stop fucking watching comic book movies..because their primary canon isn't realistic for shit and neither should be the movies.. and the rest of the fandom doesn't need to sit through more "durr hurr realistic/author avatarism" comic book movie reboots..



Oh lord, your probably one of those people who wanted to see this guy on a trapeze or some shit arent you...


EDIT: Thats a comment as to how ridiculas Robins canon origins would be in a movie btw, not a dig at JGL.

I could just eas easily say if you want a goofy showtime Joker, or a giant Roided up Bane go read the comics. Like I said before some things dont translate from the pages to the big screen.

Nolans movies are better than any other comic book movies out there. Possible exception being the new line of movies for The Avengers. And those are tongue in cheek and have the big action sequences so their just *fun*, thats what works for them. Batman isnt that type of hero.

If you want the over the top crap read the comics, watch the animated series, watch the 90s movies. Theres a reason that Nolans versions have been praised so much more by the critics than most other superhero movies. Its because it works, and it fits especially well for Batman. Their good films on their own, they dont have to depend on the popularity of their comics to be a success.



> only because he's a corpse..its the same reason a certain famous and legendary figure is revered a demi god despite being a drug abusing mentally unstable person who may or may not have molested kids...



Thats such a fucking bullshit copout. Nice debating there buddy. Except that first of all its been four years, and the shock of his death has worn off. And it dosnt explain the praise that he got for his other rolls. And the fact that Nolan is praised every bit as much as Ledger is.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 26, 2012)

I prefer Hamil in Batman Beyond Return of The Joker. That was Joker in his Prime. Ledger did phenomenal  job in Nolan's hyper real portrayal of Gotham and Joker, but the cartoon one still takes the cake. Joker in the Under the Red Hood was pretty good also, but still not on Hamil level. Still, Red Hood Joker kind of felt more like you'd expect a "grounded" Joker (not really a good thing most of the time in the first place) to be like as opposed to Nolan's rendition. Edit; I still like Nolan's rendition though...


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## mali (Jul 26, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Oh lord, your probably one of those people who wanted to see this guy on a trapeze or some shit arent you...



And what exactly is wrong with that


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## Gone (Jul 27, 2012)

Mali said:


> And what exactly is wrong with that



1) The circus is dead.
2) Robins origins was written like half a century ago, it dosnt hold up as well in todays society.
3) How do you think a circus would go over in Gotham after the entire city was terrorized by a group of insane clowns?
4) Did I mention how stupid Robins origins are by todays standards?


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## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> 1) The circus is dead.
> 2) Robins origins was written like half a century ago, it dosnt hold up as well in todays society.
> 3) How do you think a circus would go over in Gotham after the entire city was terrorized by a group of insane clowns?
> 4) Did I mention how stupid Robins origins are by todays standards?



My bad I thought you were trying to get at JGL.


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## Gone (Jul 27, 2012)

Mali said:


> My bad I thought you were trying to get at JGL.



Oh no, i thought he was good


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## Matta Clatta (Jul 27, 2012)

While were at it its harder to be an actual actor then just doing voice work anyway. Jack and Heath would be over Mark just by that alone.


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## OS (Jul 27, 2012)




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## Shock Therapy (Jul 27, 2012)

I thought Heath's Joker was even better than Jacks.


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## Shoddragon (Jul 27, 2012)

it's all a matter of opinion although it should also be noted that Mark only did voices for The Joker while Ledger had to actually get up there and do an entire movie performance dedicated around the character, so in that regard, Heath Ledger auto wins since... ya know.... Mark Hamill hasn't done a live action portrayal. so it isn't fair to compare those two in that regard.

I think Mark Hamill did better voice work but Ledger's joker had more "profound" things to say if you will. by that I mean the joker had a main purpose in "The Dark Knight" since it was made to be more realistic, so when his roles came up during the movie it overall had a purpose whether it was having some important dialogue with Batman or doing something as simple as burning money.

I can't believe some people are saying any of these two played "bad" or "mediocre" jokers. I thought both were great. I haven't seen the older movies in a long time so I can't compare anything to them although those aren't part of the topic anyway.

It all comes down to what you prefer:a very well done, Nolan-created joker that steers a bit away from the joker people will know from comics and cartoons who focuses on trying to deliver some type of message and make the audience question choices, OR, a cartoonish psychotic genius with one of the greatest laughs ever.

both are different takes on the whole "Joker" role. I think Hamill's joker takes it for me because he's been doing it for longer, has just an incredibly iconic style and laugh in his voicing of the joker and quite simply is the easiest for completely casually viewing. I can watch a batman cartoon with him in it and thoroughly enjoy it while I''d have to watch a near 3 hour movie to get the full effect of ledger's joker.

sometimes I'm just not in the mood to see joker on the live action screen and go around being a mouthpiece for Nolan and his "OH MY GAWD SUPER REALISTIC PROFOUND MESSAGES EVERYWHERE YO!".


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## Tom Servo (Jul 27, 2012)

hammil's joker by miles whenever i think of the joker his version is immediatley one that comes to mind in my opinion i always had a hard time thinking of heath ledger as the joker don't get me wrong he plays an awesome villain but he always looked to me alot more like a crazy terriost  then the actual joker and i know that's sort of what Nolan wanted since he likes his movies to be realistic but still


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## Shoddragon (Jul 27, 2012)

the guy who voices bender did the voice for joker in "under the red hood"?

damn, no wonder that toon movie was awesome .


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## Uncle Phantom (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't know why some of you are trying to discredit Heath Ledger's performance. People who actually get paid to rate movies and actual actors and actresses have nothing but immense praise for Heath's Joker and The Dark Knight movie as a whole.

Our opinions aside, there has to be some sort of truth of Heath Ledger's greatness as the joker, otherwise serious players in the movie business wouldn't hold the performance and the movie in such a high regard.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> the guy who voices bender did the voice for joker in "under the red hood"?
> 
> damn, no wonder that toon movie was awesome .



You mean you didn't detect a little of Benders trademark Dickishness when he said "I'm gonna need some guys, not these guys they're kinda dead"


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## Shoddragon (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> You mean you didn't detect a little of Benders trademark Dickishness when he said "I'm gonna need some guys, not these guys they're kinda dead"


 I watched it on netflix many many many many months ago so in my memories his voice was immediately substituted by mark Hamill's XD.

I definitely see what you're talking about upon watching the scene in question tho:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC_kYmKXrbY[/YOUTUBE]


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> Well even Nicholson said Ledger was better than him so at the end of the day he's going to be regarded as the best live action portrayal of the joker.
> Hamill had his voice down but the cartoon never really had as powerful or as threatening a presence as Ledger's joker.
> To me it comes down to what is more scary about the character. Ledger did a better job of showcasing his sociopath nature vs Hamill just playing him as an obsessed manic villain.
> 
> It should be telling that Ledger borrowed nothing from Hamill's performance to bring the character to life. He just did his own thing and has all but defined the joker in pop culture for the last 4 years.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JEa71aS3oU[/YOUTUBE]

Mark Hamill Joker is no less sadistic or psychotic. Joker in pop culture is not Ledger Joker, Hamill is the one most famously associated for it in animated form thanks to Batman TAS and DCAU works. Ledger never defined Joker in pop culture, it's like saying Christian Bale defined Batman in pop culture. 

I don't care if you like Ledger Joker more but some things needing correcting.


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## Sephiroth (Jul 27, 2012)

Mark Hamill for everything.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 27, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JEa71aS3oU[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Mark Hamill Joker is no less sadistic or psychotic. Joker in pop culture is not Ledger Joker, Hamill is the one most famously associated for it in animated form thanks to Batman TAS and DCAU works. Ledger never defined Joker in pop culture, *it's like saying Christian Bale defined Batman in pop culture. *
> 
> I don't care if you like Ledger Joker more but some things needing correcting.



That'd go to this guy.



Just like Cesar Romero is for Joker.

Or Linda Carter as Wonder Woman
Or Lou Ferrigno as the Hulk


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## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

You people are not for real. I like how you jump at the idea of people giving Ledgers joker recognition because he died when you can't prove that and I could also play at that game by accusing you guys of appealing to tradition by dick riding the old nostalgia. 

Come at Ledgers joker via his acting skills and his portrayal of the character, but don't try to cop out with a mans fucking death.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Jul 27, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JEa71aS3oU[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Mark Hamill Joker is no less sadistic or psychotic. Joker in pop culture is not Ledger Joker, Hamill is the one most famously associated for it in animated form thanks to Batman TAS and DCAU works. Ledger never defined Joker in pop culture, it's like saying Christian Bale defined Batman in pop culture.
> 
> I don't care if you like Ledger Joker more but some things needing correcting.


There is a definite drop in how threatened I am when I look at Ledger's Joker and how he carries himself vs how I see the cartoon version running around with Harley Quinn. Its a totally different beast

Nobody is quoting any of the lines Mark Hamill delivered as the Joker because the only truly memorable thing he did for the character was his laugh. 
I mean I really don't want to be down on animation right now but a successful live action movie is so much more relevant right now than a cartoon that's over 20 years old and that's what I basically meant when I said Heath defined the character for the last 4 years.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 27, 2012)

Mali said:


> You people are not for real. I like how you jump at the idea of people giving Ledgers joker recognition because he died when you can't prove that and I could also play at that game by accusing you guys of appealing to tradition by dick riding the old nostalgia.
> 
> Come at Ledgers joker via his acting skills and his portrayal of the character, but don't try to cop out with a mans fucking death.



It's a combination of both. Anyone watching the flick at the time would know this.

You know how people tend to be more famous post-mortem? Same shit.


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## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> It's a combination of both. Anyone watching the flick at the time would know this.
> 
> You know how people tend to be more famous post-mortem? Same shit.



A blend of what? Appeal to pit and appeal to tradition?

Fuck no, that doesn't apply here seeing as:
>You cant just assume that his death causes bias in this thread because a famous persons popularity rises once dead
>You cant prove it unless a person hints at it themselves in a post of theirs
>Were debating their ability to a play a role and so because most people have been posting purely opinion based things you can't assume those opinions are an appeal to pity on their part


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> There is a definite drop in how threatened I am when I look at Ledger's Joker and how he carries himself vs how I see the cartoon version running around with Harley Quinn. Its a totally different beast
> 
> Nobody is quoting any of the lines Mark Hamill delivered as the Joker because the only truly memorable thing he did for the character was his laugh.
> I mean I really don't want to be down on animation right now but a successful live action movie is so much more relevant right now than a cartoon that's over 20 years old and that's what I basically meant when I said Heath defined the character for the last 4 years.



You claimed Ledger Joker was psychotic, sociopath and menacing. I pointed out Batman TAS Joker could do all that, him torturing Robin is leagues above how Ledger made Harvey into two face, he broke Robin and damaged him for life plus he still found a way to come back in the future in a disturbing way. You argue appearances?Ledger Joker looks like a drug addict, Harley is a psycho despite her appearances, she is no laughing matter in universe for those she's blasted with a bazooka or killed, she is dangerous in her own right. Your argument was that Heath Ledger made the Joker relevant in pop despite the fact the character has been around for decades and iconic along with the likes of Batman, Superman. Ledger has not defined the Joker in the past 4 years, people still know other incarnations of the Joker such as Nicholson and Hamill. If you want to praise his performance as Joker that's fine, don't have a problem if you like him more than any other Joker but don't overrate it.

What does the signficance of Nolan Batman and the TAS have to do with this?We're arguing who did the better Joker. This thread is now whose more popular or which comes from the more popular work, Twilight is popular is that good?Note I'm not saying Nolanverse is bad, I like it but measuring a character is more than whose more popular. Going off that argument of yours, Hamill Joker has been iconic for a decade atleast despite coming from a cartoon. 

I don't deny Ledger Joker was'nt a good villain who enjoyed wrecking a city and breaking people's spirits. He enjoyed being beaten, was unpredictable, creeped people out with his tales, got under people's skins, tricked the police into almost killing hostages etc. I'm more annoyed at how people overrate him and Nolan's Batman series, when you have people claiming Ledger Joker defined the character for the public despite the fact the Joker is a well known character by many generations dead and alive. Ledger was one of many people who played or voiced the Joker and he is not anymore popular than Nicholson and Hamill or the comicbook version.

Otherwise don't have any problem in which version of the Joker people prefer or which Batman series they like.


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## OS (Jul 27, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> I watched it on netflix many many many many months ago so in my memories his voice was immediately substituted by mark Hamill's XD.
> 
> I definitely see what you're talking about upon watching the scene in question tho:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC_kYmKXrbY[/YOUTUBE]



I didn't like the design or the voice for this guy. I found it too manly for Joker. The guy looks like Jay Leno and a manly voice. His character was good, but I'd have done it differently.


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## crimsonshade (Jul 27, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> Well even Nicholson said Ledger was better than him so at the end of the day he's going to be regarded as the best live action portrayal of the joker.
> Hamill had his voice down but the cartoon never really had as powerful or as threatening a presence as Ledger's joker.
> To me it comes down to what is more scary about the character. *Ledger did a better job of showcasing his sociopath nature vs Hamill just playing him as an obsessed manic villain.*
> 
> *It should be telling that Ledger borrowed nothing from Hamill's performance to bring the character to life.* He just did his own thing and has all but defined the joker in pop culture for the last 4 years.


nicely put.

as for the pop culture thing, is not the internet swamped with ledger joker memes?  i personally have not seen any joker memes other than ledger ones.  others might be out there but can't say i've seen them.  also, do people not quote the movie lines more than the older jokers' lines?  again, AFAIK, ledger lines are far more popular.  so as far as i can tell, pop culture has been greatly affected by the new batman movies.



Uncle Phantom said:


> I don't know why some of you are trying to discredit Heath Ledger's performance. People who actually get paid to rate movies and actual actors and actresses have nothing but immense praise for Heath's Joker and The Dark Knight movie as a whole.
> 
> Our opinions aside, there has to be some sort of truth of Heath Ledger's greatness as the joker, otherwise serious players in the movie business wouldn't hold the performance and the movie in such a high regard.


very good point.  those downplaying i mean voicing their low opinions regarding ledger's version, what say you to this?



Mali said:


> You people are not for real. I like how you jump at the idea of people giving Ledgers joker recognition because he died when you can't prove that and I could also play at that game by accusing you guys of appealing to tradition by dick riding the old nostalgia.
> 
> Come at Ledgers joker via his acting skills and his portrayal of the character, but don't try to cop out with a mans fucking death.


indeed.  very early on in the thread, i could tell this was basically nostalgia joker vs new joker.  the anti ledgers seem to attack ledger's new take on the role and it's independence from the cartoons as if it's a bad thing.  the fact that people give that joker so much acclaim despite having borrowed essentially nothing from the older jokers is amazing.  he wasn't great because he copied something people already liked, he made people like the new version on his own.

plus, cartoon joker is IMO too childish and seems more like a kid who's missing a few screws and is intent on playing with dangerous toys.  the movie's joker role was much deeper and sociopathic.  he wasn't just missing a few screws, he was set out to make the world realize that they're just like him, that they're crazy too.


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## Es (Jul 27, 2012)

> plus, cartoon joker is IMO too childish and seems more like a kid who's missing a few screws and is intent on playing with dangerous toys. the movie's joker role was much deeper and sociopathic. he wasn't just missing a few screws, he was set out to make the world realize that they're just like him, that they're crazy too.


>Obviously hasn't watched return of the Joker
>Or watched Mask of the Phantasm

Who's downplaying again?


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## crimsonshade (Jul 27, 2012)

Es said:


> >Obviously hasn't watched return of the Joker
> >Or watched Mask of the Phantasm
> 
> Who's downplaying again?



AFAIK, the majority of cartoon joker is pretty much like what i described.  there's always exceptions but that doesn't mean i'm downplaying.  that's just how joker was portrayed: demented maniac playing with grown up toys.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jul 27, 2012)

Greatly enjoyed both Jacks and Heaths performances

Heath edges it though

Cant speak for Mark as i've never watched TAS


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Greatly enjoyed both Jacks and Heaths performances
> 
> Heath edges it though
> 
> Cant speak for Mark as i've never watched TAS



Now this is how most posts here should be, fair enough that you prefer Ledger Joker,anyway recommend you watch TAS and other DCAU. 

Also lol at Joker being childish, yes he used stuff like jack in the boxes and what not in keeping with his theme. Won't make him any less chaotic, sadistic, cruel, unpredictable, evilulz that people speak for Ledger Joker. Ledger Joker does'nt do anything that most incarnations of the Joker don't do, you could speak of his scheme but Joker does what he feels like in any given day. DCAU Joker also likes to watch the world burn, comic joker too. Both can get under Batman or even Robin's skin. 

This thread is about who potrayed a character better, not who has the most memes or most public marketing through a recent trilogy that's gotten massive hype especially from the death of an actor. Not hating on Nolan's trilogy, I've watched the first two movies many times and liked the third but the arguments for why Ledger Joker are better don't make sense. It's not that I can't respect someone's opinion/preference or reason but give a decent reason if you really want to give one, otherwise just say "I like _Joker more" and no one will or should attack you.

So the arguments for Ledger Joker are:
-More popular and memetic due to being from a recent trilogy
-Cartoon Joker looks childish and is'nt scary or psychotic enough

Yes because Catwoman's outfit in Nolan's trilogy or a dude wearing a scarecrow mask are very grown up. I could respect someone's preference but if you're doing which is better, stick to their characters.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 27, 2012)

Ledger made TDK movie for me

dat pencil trick 



but the best Joker is in the comics


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## Death Certificate (Jul 27, 2012)

Heath Ledger plays a nice joker for the nolan movies, but to me Mark Hamill is the Joker.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> I watched it on netflix many many many many months ago so in my memories his voice was immediately substituted by mark Hamill's XD.
> 
> I definitely see what you're talking about upon watching the scene in question tho:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC_kYmKXrbY[/YOUTUBE]



honestly he did a pretty decent job I wouldn't mind him replacing Mark it'd be different but it wouldn't be atrocious unlike that dread locked bastard from the Batman

mind you he needs a lot of work..but its there a bit



Tranquil Fury said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JEa71aS3oU[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Mark Hamill Joker is no less sadistic or psychotic. Joker in pop culture is not Ledger Joker, Hamill is the one most famously associated for it in animated form thanks to Batman TAS and DCAU works. Ledger never defined Joker in pop culture, it's like saying *Christian Bale defined Batman in pop culture. *
> 
> I don't care if you like Ledger Joker more but some things needing correcting.



That'd be Adam West and Kevin Conroy

though one could make an argument for Micheal Keaten being that guy too




Mali said:


> You people are not for real. I like how you jump at the idea of people giving Ledgers joker recognition because he died when you can't prove that and I could also play at that game by accusing you guys of appealing to tradition by dick riding the old nostalgia.
> 
> Come at Ledgers joker via his acting skills and his portrayal of the character, but don't try to cop out with a mans fucking death.



Nobodies dick riding Nostalgia here, Or at least I'm not. I didn't grow up with Romero's joker at all and neither did my parents- Hell I never saw Romero's work until The Dark knight movie because I was honestly curious if Ledger really was the greatest joker..so yeah touched up on my Batman lore

and while yeah The first live action movie I saw as a kid was Batman (I was about three years old) I don't really have a nostalgic love for him in fact I don't think I remembered the movie very well until I rewatched it years later..

I did grow up with Marks joker but I also grew up with Dragon BallZ you don't see me drowning every dbz thread in nostalgic wank...naw I tend to be pretty hard assed towards that series and dbz fans as a whole..  so you know..come on dude

my take on it is that Romero and Jack are the guys who defined the role and Hamill is the one who made it what it is and sold it to so many people- their pop culture icons

Ledger did a great performance he was menacing he was chaotic and he was violent..but unfortunately he was more a mouth piece for Nolan (Bane was too sadly) and less the Joker I read about in comics whereas..Jack and the others



Es said:


> >Obviously hasn't watched return of the Joker
> >Or watched Mask of the Phantasm
> 
> Who's downplaying again?



hell even in worlds finest he was pretty menacing seeing as he came closer to killing Superman than anyone else minus Darkseid..and when faced with certain death his laughter came off as genuinely horrific

and yeah Mask of the Phantasm Joker was pretty nightmarish there


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> honestly he did a pretty decent job I wouldn't mind him replacing Mark it'd be different but it wouldn't be atrocious unlike that dread locked bastard from the Batman
> 
> mind you he needs a lot of work..but its there a bit



To be fair I kinda liked the idea of a Joker that is a physical match to Bats. Only thing I liked of that show.


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## Matta Clatta (Jul 27, 2012)

Yeah I mean people do quote Ledger's joker more but that's because BTAS was at the end of the day just a cartoon. There's lot's of things that can explain that like writing or plot.
I don't think that tells you who's better just who is more accepted today.

I mean there aren't any outstanding lines or anything really iconic about DCUA joker aside from his laugh they changed his appearance 3 times in the DCUA and nobody really cared because none of those looks were striking, while with Ledger you have the presence,the danger,and the unpredictable nature all down in one movie. 

I don't care how long the Joker existed as a character you have someone who did something entirely original on screen vs someone who adapted a character to be profoundly toned down.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2012)

> That'd be Adam West and Kevin Conroy
> 
> though one could make an argument for Micheal Keaten being that guy too



Kevin Conroy does Batman in practically all animated or game appearances, he definately defined the voice of Batman atleast.

EDIT Comic books were aimed at children and teens, Nolan's movies don't have anything beyond those. Batman TAS is praised because it took on a darker tone and had great writing because both kids and adults could like it. Animated Joker was not some campy villain, he was down right dangerous and disturbing when the writing called for it. Stop assuming based on his appearance, he could do something even Ledger Joker did'nt at his darkest as Return of Joker shows. You keep going lol it's a cartoon and he's childish when not going "Ledger Joker is more popular". MH Joker is still famous even now despite being from a cartoon and over 10 years ago, it's why they ask him to reprise his role in games or animated works unless he turns it down. Comic Joker despite his cartoony appearances and large ham scares other criminals.

Not to mention at no point was popularity the point of this thread, Twilight is popular and accepted too please consider that before you claim X>Y because it's more popular or accepted. If you want to break down their characters and compare, it's fine.


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## Barioth (Jul 27, 2012)

Mark Hammil wins for the Batman Beyond Movie: Return of the Joker. That satellite feat trumps no?

Question: Is this even a fight?


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## Death Certificate (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't get how anyone can say realism defines a good character, because that shallow way of looking at it.


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## Matta Clatta (Jul 27, 2012)

Death Certificate said:


> I don't get how anyone can say realism defines a good character, because that shallow way of looking at it.




Do you think the joker is the same character he was 70 years ago when he was created?
Do you think Batman is the same?

I wouldn't say different is bad but I would say certain elements of the character detract from the point of the character and that's to be the antithesis of Batman.

Now looking at BTAS and TNBA you have Dumb henchmen,Joker operating with a gimmick, and generally more manic behavior.
I don't think that's bad but it doesn't make me uncomfortable like how Ledger's joker does when he talking casually as he murders someone. Sometimes you don't need to put on a big show for the character to work and that's why you have things like "Why so serious" and "Let's put a smile on that face" being remembered vs laugh being remembered from Hammil. 
You have too many things distracting you from the character in the cartoon and in the movie this isn't the case which is why the performance is so good.

Kevin Conroy voices Batman but I don't think people look at him as defining the character besides having an iconic voice to put to a face. I guess that's how I feel about Hamill too he's just the voice he isn't the character.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jul 27, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Now this is how most posts here should be, fair enough that you prefer Ledger Joker,anyway recommend you watch TAS and other DCAU.



I might someday

Should add that i meant in pure actor performance, not as in who portrayed the comic version of Joker the best (That would go to Jack if the comic version is indeed similar to his portrayal)


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 27, 2012)

As for me, I have yet to come across a Joker I didn't like, and while I loved Burton's Batman (My favorite Batman movie) I'd still say I preferred Heath's Joker performance over Nicholson. 
I think people overlook the Joker from The Batman, he was a lot of fun and had a great voice. He just wasn't as good as Hamill


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## Ulti (Jul 27, 2012)

Pretty pointless thread as it will never reach a conclusion due to being based on opinion

I prefered Ledger's Joker, I grew up watching Hamill however they are both pretty different characters, I found Ledger more menacing, Nolan's films are more...I dunno if I should say dark/gritty but I prefered it like that. Joker is usually a fucking maniacial sociopath however Ledger put a spin on it where he introduced anarchrist/terrorist aspects to the Joker's character and I ended up really liking it, Ledger lived that role and it is what ended up killing him, easily one of the best performances I have ever seen. 

Not to mention he probably still would have recieved the praise he did if he didn't die, Ledger won multiple awards prior to taking on that role (Patriot, Brokeback Mountain, guess what, he didn't die to get them) and there wasn't much to contend with him that year.

I've watched Burton's Batman movies and I couldn't get into them, however Nolan's actually made me like Batman as I don't usually like him. However I prefer Avengers, Thor and X Men first class movie wise.

The Dark Knight got more exposure than the animated series too as is a movie, however that isn't a point against Hamill


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Pretty pointless thread as it will never reach a conclusion due to being based on opinion
> 
> I prefered Ledger's Joker, I grew up watching Hamill however they are both pretty different characters, I found Ledger more menacing, Nolan's films are more...I dunno if I should say dark/gritty but I prefered it like that. Joker is usually a fucking maniacial sociopath however Ledger put a spin on it where he introduced anarchrist/terrorist aspects to the Joker's character and I ended up really liking it, Ledger lived that role and it is what ended up killing him, easily one of the best performances I have ever seen.
> 
> ...



Good post.


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## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Nobodies dick riding Nostalgia here, Or at least I'm not. I didn't grow up with Romero's joker at all and neither did my parents- Hell I never saw Romero's work until The Dark knight movie because I was honestly curious if Ledger really was the greatest joker..so yeah touched up on my Batman lore
> 
> and while yeah The first live action movie I saw as a kid was Batman (I was about three years old) I don't really have a nostalgic love for him in fact I don't think I remembered the movie very well until I rewatched it years later..
> 
> ...



I never directly accused you of dick riding nostalgia (apologies if you saw it that way), I was pointing out the fact that Ledger supporters appealing to pity and Mark supporters appealing to tradition being equivalently baseless arguments and that I could accuse the Mark supporters of appealing to tradition just like how Ledger supporters are being accused of appealing to pity.

Im basing my argument purely on opinion because I dont feel theres any sort of logical debate to be had currently. If people were debating on the difference in acting ability (lets just say, the levels of characterization displayed by both) it would be a different story. But the chances of that happening were shattered with the first 3 letters of the post after the OP.



> IMO


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> To be fair I kinda liked the idea of a Joker that is a physical match to Bats. Only thing I liked of that show.



yeah that would have been an interesting thing to explore  but the way they did it it ended up being as if  they had a creeper then gave him dreads and then painted him in Jokers make up





Matta Clatta said:


> Yeah I mean people do quote Ledger's joker more but that's because BTAS was at the end of the day just a cartoon.



and Matta once again showcases his fantastic ignorance and blind biased in defense of something he believes in..

BTAS was a trail blazing series that handled very dark and adult subject matter, it won at least one Emmy and IIRC was nominated for more. the people who worked on the project many of them went on to animate shows like Cowboy bebop and other trail blazers..it was handled by pros voiced by pros and it took our generation of kids Seriously (no pun intended) . The show was what helped make people see animation seriously (and when the ghetto age of animation rolled along and everything went to shit in the early 00's it was DCAU and anime that kinda carried on its legacy)

I mean damn.. Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel praised the movie was being superior to Batman Returns..other critics hailed the thing as being better than most of the live action Batman films

Returns was one of the darkest, heaviest Batman movies ever made it had some seriously heavy subject matter and it was a mind fuck and a half and the pros yeah they put BTMP over it.

you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about..BTAS not only introduced Batman to a new generation but its influence was felt..across the board..

in fact Matta to show how massively full of shit you are..

*
"After the September 11, 2001 attacks in New York City, Conroy helped out in the relief efforts by volunteering to do cooking duties for officers and firefighters. On the Batman: Gotham Knight DVD's commentary, he told the story about it, and how another cook found out he was the voice of Batman. He asked if he could tell everyone, and Conroy agreed, though he thought no one would even know who he was. At the other cook's urging, Conroy yelled in the voice of Batman, "I am vengeance! I am the night! I... am... Batman!" (a line he had famously delivered in the episode "Nothing to Fear" from Batman: The Animated Series) eliciting cheers from the first responders eating at the relief center. They began telling him what their favorite episodes were, and how they had watched the show with their kids. He said it was the first time he had seen any of them smile or laugh since the attacks a week earlier

...Yeah what the fuck were you saying Matta? Just a Cartoon that's why grown men in the middle of one of the most violent and tragic moments since Viet Nam...were outright inspired by Their*

 Batman declaring himself..that their morale was lifted by that exchange

these are grown fucking men..who had just been through hell..and yet this is the affect BTAS had on them?

What..the fuck are you talking about Matta, seriously you are known for spouting out bullshit at an impressive rate but your absolutely silly and pathetic attempt to dishonestly downplay BTAS  takes the fucking cake

go argue with those people that BTAS was just a cartoon"giogio





Tranquil Fury said:


> EDIT Comic books were aimed at children and teens, Nolan's movies don't have anything beyond those. Batman TAS is praised because it took on a darker tone and had great writing because both kids and adults could like it. Animated Joker was not some campy villain, he was down right dangerous and disturbing when the writing called for it. Stop assuming based on his appearance, he could do something even Ledger Joker did'nt at his darkest as Return of Joker shows. You keep going lol it's a cartoon and he's childish when not going "Ledger Joker is more popular". MH Joker is still famous even now despite being from a cartoon and over 10 years ago, it's why they ask him to reprise his role in games or animated works unless he turns it down. Comic Joker despite his cartoony appearances and large ham scares other criminals.



hell Joker has moments in the series proper that are as Dark as Ledgers, remember the episode about Domestic abuse and how he treated Harley?



Mali said:


> I never directly accused you of dick riding nostalgia (apologies if you saw it that way), I was pointing out the fact that Ledger supporters appealing to pity and Mark supporters appealing to tradition being equivalently baseless arguments and that I could accuse the Mark supporters of appealing to tradition just like how Ledger supporters are being accused of appealing to pity.



No I am sorry for misreading your post and thinking you did, my bad Mali

Are the majority of the Hamill supporters doing that though? There are a few that are putting up some decent arguments...

I think when it comes to Ledger that his performance was fantastic and he cemented he could do villain roles on a level we hadn't seen from his generation of actors..but watching it..that wasn't Joker to me..and there was the mouth piece moments..granted not as severe as Bane

One cannot deny Critics likely were influenced by his death and the average movie goer likely rushed to canonize the guy... but I don't know if its blind biased..he does deserve credit and praise for his performance but as a comic book reader first who got into Batman movies and toons second..its hard for me to take the guy as the Joker



Mali said:


> Im basing my argument purely on opinion because I dont feel theres any sort of logical debate to be had currently. If people were debating on the difference in acting ability (lets just say, the levels of characterization displayed by both) it would be a different story. But the chances of that happening were shattered with the first 3 letters of the post after the OP.



eh I'm basing my argument off the source material..while the Killing Joke..and other stories do support Ledger, he sorta took those incarnations of the joker..then put his own spin on it..that pushed him more into something else entirely

IIRC he seemed to have more in common with Anton Chirgur(SP?) from no country for old men..in some ways


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## Death Certificate (Jul 27, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> Do you think the joker is the same character he was 70 years ago when he was created?
> Do you think Batman is the same?
> 
> I wouldn't say different is bad but I would say certain elements of the character detract from the point of the character and that's to be the antithesis of Batman.
> ...



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKEfoC4tvJg[/YOUTUBE]
Their is alot more from hamil than just a laugh, Hamil mannerism and actions is what you define the joker, from his playfull attitude to his insanity.


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## Gone (Jul 27, 2012)

Death Certificate said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKEfoC4tvJg[/YOUTUBE]
> Their is alot more from hamil than just a laugh, Hamil mannerism and actions is what you define the joker, from his playfull attitude to his insanity.



Theres also this, he did a really good role in the Arkham games, people tend to overlook them.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yB7webqUCA[/YOUTUBE]

Then theres also this scene.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up7jPJXq-RY[/YOUTUBE]

I almost had a tear coming to my eye here. I know its silly with Batman carrying the Joker out instead of Taliah. But this was supposed to be Hamills last Joker role, so it almost fealt like the Joker Ive known since I was a kid watching Batman TAS as a kid on saturday mornings was dead


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Jesus are you fucking retarded? Stop bringing up all this vague crap and give me a real fucking example. I mean I know I said stupid things when I first joined the site, like the Twilight vamps beating sharptooth or DBZ being > Buffyverse. But that was caus I didnt know the power levels of some fictions I wasnt familiar with. I never read Twilight, and thought the vampires were stronger than they were. I was only familiar with the DBZ anime, and never read the Buffy EU.



I just did.. now shut your god damn mouth and go about your business



Ryjacork said:


> And btw, that was all a matter of ignorance, not poor taste. I dont pick a fiction I like the most in a match, i pick the one I generally thought at the time would win.



See I thought so at first but your knee jerk reaction whenever someone brings it up..




Ryjacork said:


> Your right, the ones where Batman takes high school sophmores out over rooftops would make much more sence on the big screen



it's a comic book movie...if you want realism watch something else



Ryjacork said:


> *AND WOULD LOOK ABSOLUTLEY RETARDED ON THE BIG SCREEN.* See I can cap talk too, am I one of the cool kids now?



Really? Because Superman, Batman, Batman Returns, Transformers and The Avengers all fucking disagree with you



Ryjacork said:


> Well the acadamy, the box office, almost every proffessional film critic, many comic writers who have actually written for the Joker, Jack Nicholson, and Mark Hammil all disagree with you. But no Im sure the opinion of a single random fan whos just wanking the source materiel matters a lot more than all of them. Your clearly in the right here



hmmm we resorting to Fallacies now? awww



Ryjacork said:


> First off did you really just try and say that fucking Daredevil is as iconic as Batman?



no you simpleton, what I said was..if you want a gritty realistic comic book movie..go produce Born again.. Because it fucking works with Daredevil..not Batman

nice job at dishonestly misrepresenting my posts though..In fact I'm pretty sure in a few days that'll be against the rules.. Wanna keep this up?



Ryjacork said:


> Second people defend Nolan because he puts out awesome fucking movies, that suppass almost every other mainstream comic book movie out there. Its only butthurt comic wankers like you that like to bitch about it on and on because he brings some of the villians more down to earth.



No he doesn't he puts out mind numbing..acid trips if I wanted that I'd go rent an old lynch or Riddly Scott flick



Ryjacork said:


> Cry all you want but it works, people like it.



hey the vast majority of people like Twilight...just like their taste is idiotically bad..people who want a gritty grounded in real life version of a Dark and brooding Iron man..don't have such fantastic taste



Ryjacork said:


> First of all thats not a comparison, its an excuse



No it's an entirely valid comparison... now stop falling over yourself and showcasing a failure of the basics of vs debating and step..your god damn game up..or get outta this thread before you really blow up and torpedo yourself for good


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yeah that would have been an interesting thing to explore  but the way they did it it ended up being as if  they had a creeper then gave him dreads and then painted him in Jokers make up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair though, The Dark Knight proved to the modern movie goer that Comic Book movies could be serious. It would still be ludicrous to say that TAS  had no influence. I know I don't speak for everyone, but when I think of Batman's voice, its always Conroy.


----------



## OS (Jul 27, 2012)

This thread is shit. You are all acting and posting like shits. It makes me the God of Shit hate this shit. Now stop posting in this shit you pieces of shits.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> *To be fair though, The Dark Knight proved to the modern movie goer that Comic Book movies could be serious.* It would still be ludicrous to say that TAS  had no influence. I know I don't speak for everyone, but when I think of Batman's voice, its always Conroy.



Really because Mask of the phantasm didn't do that? BTAS didn't? Hell Burtons movies didn't?_ What?!_

Dark Knight didn't do that, it took what modern hollywood calls "gritty realism" and made a Batman movie out of it..


----------



## zerothren (Jul 27, 2012)

Wow, I initially would have never guessed all of the Ledger downplaying that would go on.  I feel that both Hamill and Ledger did an amazing job, but for the fact that Ledger acted, no lived the Joker on screen and not just was his voice gives him an edge.  Coupled with that is the nature of the Joker he portrayed.  

Yes, it was a different kind of Joker, still with the laughs and insanity, but he had a more serious insight with ideals.  The fact that Ledger could not only sell a different kind of Joker, but a kind of Joker that is more menacing and terrorizing than the cartoon version needs credit.

He isn't a simple madman or a second-rate villain, he became an idea.  The danger of the joker is not the gas, the knives, or the bombs, its what he might bring out of you, that's the true menace of the Joker.  You fight him, beat him up, try to shoot him up, and when you finally look at his face and kill him, you realize you were looking into a mirror.  That is what Ledger portrayed.


----------



## Death Certificate (Jul 27, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Theres also this, he did a really good role in the Arkham games, people tend to overlook them.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yB7webqUCA[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> ...



I still haven't played Arkham city yet, I do agree the arkham video games do show some hamil's best work. Hopefully their will be a successor to his amazing voice work.


----------



## willyvereb (Jul 27, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> 1) Which played a better Joker?


That's entirely the matter of personal opinion.

Someone liked Hamil's Joker from DCAU
Others liked Ledger's Joker from the Dark Knight movies more.

It's rare to find someone who hated either of these, though.
Both played their assigned character excellently.
The rest is just up to your own tastes.

As for whichever actor hit closer to the original Joker, it'd be Hamil.
Joker is an insane madman who does everything for the evulz, and we love it!
The Dark Knight did a re-imagination of the Batman franchise that has a more gritty and "realistic" feeling.

Heath Ledger's Joker was a twisted figure who grew up in a messed-up family and turned into a psychopath. Unlike the classic Joker, Heath Ledger's character had an agenda. He was an anarchist who opposed any form of order. This Joker was unpredictable by his choice and did everything to spread chaos.

He was a different figure than the one featured in comics. Despite that Heath Ledger's character didn't feel forced or artificial. It kept the that Joker-like feeling while also presenting something else.

Whether you liked him or not is a different matter, though.
Like I said, we're discussing something really subjective here. So there's no point in the debate.

Objectively speaking, both actors did their best and they worth all the praise.


As it shows through my post, I prefer Heath Ledger's Joker but that doesn't mean the other is inferior.
When I was young I always watched DCAU with Hungarian dubs (my own language) so I'm less exposed to Hamil's acting.
That'd be the most likely reason.


----------



## Ulti (Jul 27, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> This thread is shit. You are all acting and posting like shits. It makes me the God of Shit hate this shit. Now stop posting in this shit you pieces of shits.



jesus fucking christ why are you sealed

words of truth


----------



## Matta Clatta (Jul 27, 2012)

Yeah that's pretty pathetic I just told you a fact Immortal you don't need to get bent out of shape like that. 
A cartoon is always going to just reach one audience and that's people who watch television and then you marginalize that audience down again to people who watch cartoons and its even smaller after that. 
A mean seriously my whole point was that you can't judge a movie's popularity or widespread knowledge too much vs Television shows because one medium is incredibly larger than the other. I don't think I sat there and talked down cartoons for you to be whining about how mature you think BTAS is but whatever.

At the end of the day you are comparing a nice shiny apple to a just picked up out of the dirt orange when you compare television to film.
Its the same argument when you compare actual actors to voice actors.
One side is only giving you the voice of the character without the nuance and presentation and at the end of the day that's enough to make it better.


----------



## crimsonshade (Jul 27, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> So the arguments for Ledger Joker are:
> -More popular and memetic due to being from a recent trilogy
> -Cartoon Joker looks childish and is'nt scary or psychotic enough


not sure if this is addressing me but i'll reply.  my comment on the memes was in response to seeing someone contest the recent trilogy's affect on popular culture.  i forget who but i got the impression that they were saying the triology and the actors haven't affected recent popular culture.



> Yes because Catwoman's outfit in Nolan's trilogy or a dude wearing a scarecrow mask are very grown up. I could respect someone's preference but if you're doing which is better, stick to their characters.


haven't seen 3rd one yet so not sure what this is about.

but that's just it, it's precisely what makes their roles more engaging.  the characters act more like a real people, their distorted worldviews are more believable, and the movie becomes more alive and credible because of it.  usually when i watch cartoon joker, i quickly conclude that nobody is actually like that nor is it likely that anyone could be like that.  on the other hand, the new joker's moral dilemmas makes me wonder, am i really like that?  would i or that nice lady down the street be any different if circumstances put us in that position?  when that happens, i actually start believing that someone like that [joker] could actually exist.  it's not just some nutcase character, it's credible person with a twisted philosophy.

cartoon joker just doesn't dig that deep for me.  i don't know if it was because i was a kid when i watched the cartoons and whatnot, but questions like that never crossed my mind.  i'd wager even if i watched them now, i doubt they would invoke any particularly deep thinking on my part.

so yes, the portrayal of the joker in the movie is far deeper as far as i'm concerned.  the new joker wasn't just a nutcase that enjoyed blowing stuff up.  he was a sociopath that had a warped picture of humanity and he was set out to make the world admit that they are twisted like him; that it's not his own twisted opinion but rather a fact.  his destructive character wasn't simply from getting off on destruction and mayhem, it was because he could make you think he's right.  ledger's ability to convey all of that in his role and make it believable even to you (the viewer) just makes it even more mind blowing.

ledger's death had nothing to do with this.  i haven't read exactly what critics said about his acting but i believe they truly acknowledged that he brilliantly played his role.  plus, as i and some others have already said, the fact that he way able to win so much acclaim despite playing a completely new joker is amazing.  he didn't simply gain support from people who already liked classic joker who would then continue to like the joker he did, he won them on his own.

that, is my opinion.  sorry for the wall of text, but you did ask for my opinion and my opinion is long.


----------



## Gone (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I just did.. now shut your god damn mouth and go about your business



No... dumbass... you didnt. You brought up how I was supposidly "raked over the coals" in the past because of my taste? When the Hell did this happen? Wtf are you talking about? Im asking for a specific example to back up what your claiming. I was raked over the coals when I was new, because, as I said I had preconceptions about certain fictions that turned out to be wrong, but nothing that ever had anything to do with my taste.

And even that shit is far in the past, so you bringing it up here as a debate tactic just proves how weak your stance is.



> it's a comic book movie...if you want realism watch something else



Like I said thats your opinon, but the majority of the fans disagree with you and like Nolans movies. Why should teh studios cater to a fringe minority (you) rather than the majority of people who can actually apreciate quality.



> Really? Because Superman, Batman, Batman Returns, Transformers and The Avengers all fucking disagree with you



2/3 of the Transmofrmers movies sucked, I already explained why the Avengers was good. The first two Batman movies were ok, but they got blown out of the water by Nolans trilogy. As for Superman, the same thing is probably going to happen after Snyders/Nolans reboot.



> hmmm we resorting to Fallacies now? awww



Its a falacy that Im pointing out that the majority of the fanbase, all the critics, the acadamy (he won 35 awards for that one roll), as well as many other people who have written for him and played him, praised him for their role?

Mark Hamill said he was on par with Anthony Hopkins Hannibal Lecter, Jack Nicholson said that Ledger did a better job than he did. He won 35 awards for his roll in the movie.

Thats not a fallacy, its facts. Everybody who is in any way proffessionally linked to the film or comic industry praises the roll. So do the majoritu of the fans. Its only hardcore comic/nostalgia wankers like you that bitch about it. Like I said a fringe minority.



> no you *simpleton*



hurp durp, your sthtuuuupiiiid, you thimple toon... 

ni





> ce job at dishonestly misrepresenting my posts though..In fact I'm pretty sure in a few days that'll be against the rules.. Wanna keep this up?



Oh jeez its always the same crowd that starts bitching about that. Its text you paranoid fuck, people misenterperate things, its not dishonesty.

You basically implied that a Dardevil movie would work on the same calibur as Batman. Saying "go watch Daredevil" implies that Daredevil is a replacement for Batman. Its not. Batman is a better hero, more iconic, better story.



> No he doesn't he puts out mind numbing..acid trips if I wanted that I'd go rent an old lynch or Riddly Scott flick



I love people who have a dumb opinion that differs from what most fans, and every critic believe, and continue to defend it.

Quality is subjective, its a matter of opinion. IF somebody wanted to come say that they thought Naruto or Twilight was better than like Tolkien, or HP Lovecraft or something, they wouldnt be wrong, caus its just their opinion. So I cant fault you on that.

But say its your opinion dude, dont try and pass of your skewed preferences as mainstream consensus. Just like most literary consider Lovecraft and Tlkien better than Naruto/Twilight, most fans/critics consider Nolans trilogy to be well done, and in many cases better than what came before it.



> hey the vast majority of people like Twilight



Are you fucking stupid or something? Twilight is world renown as being one of the worst series ever written. 90% of the time Twilight is mentioned, its talking about how bad it is. Most of the actual fans are teenage girls, who its aimed at. And any real book critic will tell you how bad it is. Unlike Nolans movies, which are praised by the actual proffessionals.



> No it's an entirely valid comparison... now stop falling over yourself and showcasing a failure of the basics of vs debating and step..your god damn game up..or get outta this thread before you really blow up and torpedo yourself for good



So should I start brining up irrleivant strawman stuff from teh past and then refuse to actually give an example of what Im talking about as some kind of smokescreen? Or should I just insult everybody intelligence and say taht they only liked Ledger caus he died? Or should I start bringing up Twilight out of nowhere?

I mean thats what youve been doing, rather than actually debating the facts. Is that how I should "step up my game"? Get a fucking clue dude, your just digging yourself deeper and deeper here, making a bigger and bigger ass out of yourself.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> Yeah that's pretty pathetic I just told you a fact



No you didn't you made an ignorant comment.. that wasn't very well researched or informed





Ryjacork said:


> bawwww



You done?


Ryjacork said:


> And even that shit is far in the past, so you bringing it up here as a debate tactic just proves how weak your stance is.



my stance is doing just fine



Ryjacork said:


> Like I said thats your opinon, but the majority of the fans disagree with you and like Nolans movies. Why should teh studios cater to a fringe minority (you) rather than the majority of people who can actually apreciate quality.



appealing to the majority? We using fallacies again? Pretty sure that's against the rules now too

wanna keep going? pretty sure by page eleven I can push you far enough the mods have no choice but to ban you..you're already pretty close to that now



Ryjacork said:


> 2/3 of the Transmofrmers movies sucked, I already explained why the Avengers was good. The first two Batman movies were ok, but they got blown out of the water by Nolans trilogy. As for Superman, the same thing is probably going to happen after Snyders/Nolans reboot.



and yet the first two made a fortune and were fun..as for the Avengers you didn't explain why it was good..you patronized it..

and when Snyder and Nolan reboot Superman and make him realistic..they'll finally experience a nice proper backlash when all the S-shield tards declare a holy jihad against them




Ryjacork said:


> Its a falacy that Im pointing out that the majority of the fanbase, all the critics, the acadamy (he won 35 awards for that one roll), as well as many other people who have written for him and played him, praised him for their role?



Yes, because fuck the majority, this is a verses debate forum the only thing that matters is how well you can argue and when you start leaning on the majority as a crutch the way you have been..you cease to have an argument that's valid



Ryjacork said:


> Mark Hamill said he was on par with Anthony Hopkins Hannibal Lecter, Jack Nicholson said that Ledger did a better job than he did. He won 35 awards for his roll in the movie.



and? Ever since Jackson died people have attributed everything from Live Aide to forever altering music history beyond what The Beatles or Elvis did..

they're categorically wrong- but that hasn't stopped them



Ryjacork said:


> Thats not a fallacy, its facts. Everybody who is in any way proffessionally linked to the film or comic industry praises the roll. So do the majoritu of the fans. Its only hardcore comic/nostalgia wankers like you that bitch about it. *Like I said a fringe minority.*



Really? because in this thread the only people making a very loud very rabid defense are known pariahs who's views have never been taken seriously

the rest of the pro Ledger crowd the ones making quality arguments seemed to have taken off once you dialed up your nerd rage to eleven



Ryjacork said:


> Oh jeez its always the same crowd that starts bitching about that. Its text you paranoid fuck, people misenterperate things, its not dishonesty.



no, coming from you, the way you did it. it's dishonesty



Ryjacork said:


> ]You basically implied that a Dardevil movie would work on the same calibur as Batman. Saying "go watch Daredevil" implies that Daredevil is a replacement for Batman. Its not. Batman is a better hero, more iconic, better story.



Where the fuck did I imply that? Do you not know how to read?

nevermind that Born Again is considered among the best "street level" work ever published and stands up there with some of Batmans best... I mean That hardly was my original point but hey..if you're going to continue to showcase just how utterly ignorant you are, I may as well just do a fact dump 

any way now that I've done that onto my original point: Gritty realism works for Daredevil

Gritty realism does not for someone who has a fucking boom tube and reality altering grenades, in his closet, it does work for a character that has..the vengeance of the lord and a fucking Witch who was powerful enough to reconstruct the rock of eternity..on fucking speed dial..a five minute drive from his fucking house

that's the difference between Batman..and mother fucking Gritty realistic street level guys

One dude agonizes when his plans to neutralize a group of planet killers are hijacked by his immortal arch enemy.. and used to kill them... one dudes greatest enemy is a psychotic clown who can apparently produce machines that can rumble with Superman and Jokerize Doomsday..who's mind is so warped Eldirch abominations end up having to go to therapy after trying to mind rape him

the other dude, is a working class son of a boxer who patrols a neighborhood deals mostly with thugs, human trafficking, prostitution and every now and then gets dragged into large scale meta human plots..who's main enemy is a highly intelligent very powerful mafia boss known as Wilson fisk

Batman = in his purest canon portrayals someone who is incredibly dark and brooding but fanfuckingtastic in its base everyday thing

if you want gritty realism..go watch Sin City, go watch a Terantino movie




Ryjacork said:


> I love people who have a dumb opinion that differs from what most fans, and every critic believe, and continue to defend it.



I love arrogant trolls who think jumping a band wagon and using loaded language and catch phrases like "Gritty and realisitc * (never mind that the that's utterly farcical in and of itself that people think Nolan is gritty or realistic) that they somehow are correct



Ryjacork said:


> Quality is subjective, its a matter of opinion. IF somebody wanted to come say that they thought Naruto or Twilight was better than like Tolkien, or HP Lovecraft or something, they wouldnt be wrong, caus its just their opinion. So I cant fault you on that.



They would be absolutely and objectively wrong 




Ryjacork said:


> Are you fucking stupid or something? Twilight is world renown as being one of the worst series ever written. 90% of the time Twilight is mentioned, its talking about how bad it is. Most of the actual fans are teenage girls, who its aimed at. And any real book critic will tell you how bad it is. Unlike Nolans movies, which are praised by the actual proffessionals.



and yet twilight has a very vocal very loud fanbase willing to watch any of its movies..read any of its books and defend any of its material no matter how poor it is


oh..wait..hey that reminds me of another fanbase



Ryjacork said:


> So should I start brining up irrleivant strawman stuff from teh past and then refuse to actually give an example of what Im talking about as some kind of smokescreen? Or should I just insult everybody intelligence and say taht they only liked Ledger caus he died? Or should I start bringing up Twilight out of nowhere?



and yet you still can't debunk the MJ comparison

don't you think its funny..that I can have a civil discussion with Mali regarding Ledger even though we're on opposite sides? Yet you stand here howling like a timberwolf on Acid with its nuts on fire?

I wonder why that is...hmm 



zerothren said:


> He isn't a simple madman or a second-rate villain, .



So I'm guessing you never read, or watched Batman material until Nolans films?

because that's the only explanation for how utterly wrong the implications of this line come off as


----------



## Es (Jul 27, 2012)

This shit needs to be taken behind the barn


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 27, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> This thread is shit. You are all acting and posting like shits. It makes me the God of Shit hate this shit. Now stop posting in this shit you pieces of shits.


spoken like a true OS 





> "After the September 11, 2001 attacks in New York City, Conroy helped out in the relief efforts by volunteering to do cooking duties for officers and firefighters. On the Batman: Gotham Knight DVD's commentary, he told the story about it, and how another cook found out he was the voice of Batman. He asked if he could tell everyone, and Conroy agreed, though he thought no one would even know who he was. At the other cook's urging, Conroy yelled in the voice of Batman, "I am vengeance! I am the night! I... am... Batman!" (a line he had famously delivered in the episode "Nothing to Fear" from Batman: The Animated Series) eliciting cheers from the first responders eating at the relief center. They began telling him what their favorite episodes were, and how they had watched the show with their kids. He said it was the first time he had seen any of them smile or laugh since the attacks a week earlier
> 
> ...Yeah what the fuck were you saying Matta? Just a Cartoon that's why grown men in the middle of one of the most violent and tragic moments since Viet Nam...were outright inspired by Their
> 
> ...


damn



BTAS is probably the best cartoon I've ever seen


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Really because Mask of the phantasm didn't do that? BTAS didn't? Hell Burtons movies didn't?_ What?!_
> 
> Dark Knight didn't do that, it took what modern hollywood calls "gritty realism" and made a Batman movie out of it..



mask of the phantasm was critically praised, but it wasn't much of a financial success. BTAS isn't a movie. The Burton movies did, but when i said modern movie goers, meant people in the 2000s, who probably still had a bad taste from Batman & Robin.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> spoken like a true OS
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Really its stories like that, that tell you how lucky we were to grow up in the era we did exposed to the fiction we were exposed too. And just how much those who came after us have missed out on



Azrael Finalstar said:


> mask of the phantasm was critically praised, but it wasn't much of a financial success. BTAS isn't a movie. The Burton movies did, but when i said modern movie goers, meant people in the 2000s, who probably still had a bad taste from Batman & Robin.



it was a financial bomb because at the time the average movie goer still struggled with Cartoons being serious, doesn't change that the moment you watch that.. your eyes open

I get what you were saying though


----------



## zerothren (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> So I'm guessing you never read, or watched Batman material until Nolans films?
> 
> because that's the only explanation for how utterly wrong the implications of this line come off as



Yeah, I should have worded that better.  I was not saying that Hamill's Joker was a second-rate villain.  I was making a contrast between Ledger's Joker and other criminal characters as well as Hamill's Joker.  I should have distinguished between the latter two.  I was trying to show that Ledger's Joker brings another level of complexity to the Joker character, but I think I said it wrong.

And I have watched a lot of batman material before the Nolan films, otherwise I wouldn't be commenting on this thread.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

What I am trying to say is that Joker no matter who..has never been a second rate villain


----------



## zerothren (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> What I am trying to say is that Joker no matter who..has never been a second rate villain



I wasn't trying to say that either.  Second-rate villains were in reference to other criminal characters who were not the Joker.  I apologize for the confusion.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

No problem I am sure i misread your intentions too

welcome back by the way


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 27, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> spoken like a true OS
> 
> 
> 
> ...



TAS has an episode where Adam freaking West guest stars as one of the characters. So yeah, Bruce Wayne gets to talk to Bruce Wayne in that episode. Was pretty meta shit.

Anyway when it comes down to it.

Cesar Romero = Silver Age Joker
Jack = Comic book-ish portrayal of Joker but with a Burton style to it
Mark Hamill = Sorta like a combination of Silver Age Joker in terms of wacky, and other half Dark Knight style Joker.
Ledger = Full Dark Knight style, specifically Killing Joke style Joker with a Nolan style to it.


----------



## Whimsy (Jul 27, 2012)

Nicholson Joker being massively overrated I see

He pretty much played himself

Also that film was frankly dogshit looking back at it now, Jack did pretty good but my god, that film is a mess.

Heath's Joker is receiving a typical backlash, but is still much more unnerving and scary than anything short of Morrison comics Joker (who Ledger's performance was almost certainly influenced by).


----------



## Fang (Jul 27, 2012)

Or maybe Ledger just is over-rated considering the dumbass OD'd himself to death and plenty of the positive review comes from courtesy?

Yeah I'll go with that.


----------



## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

Fang said:


> Or maybe Ledger just is over-rated considering the dumbass OD'd himself to death and plenty of the positive review comes from courtesy?
> 
> Yeah I'll go with that.



Yeah, negged -_-.


----------



## Fang (Jul 27, 2012)

Such an edgy morality defender.


----------



## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

Great job ignore-listing me, well done.


----------



## Fang (Jul 27, 2012)

I guess its too obvious to make the implication there that I can click on an ignore post when I see your post come up from being quoted throughout the thread?

Sure, whatever?

Enjoy your actor best known for Broke Back Mountain and recycled 9gag and Reddit memes. Cry me a river. Also nice red herring.

Inb4 15 more one-liner posts.


----------



## Huntring (Jul 27, 2012)

Never knew that people could get so into argueing about subjective tastes.  

And OS actually made a good post.


----------



## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

Why ignore list me if you still want to see any post I make? Kinda asnine.

Oooh, trying to undermine Ledgers recognition while trying reinforce the idea that your serious about debating in this thread. 

Such tact -_-


----------



## Fang (Jul 27, 2012)

Oh hey I'm Nostradamus, my predictions are always true.


----------



## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

Now that's just pitiful.


----------



## zerothren (Jul 27, 2012)

Fang said:


> Or maybe Ledger just is over-rated considering the dumbass OD'd himself to death and plenty of the positive review comes from courtesy?
> 
> Yeah I'll go with that.



Or maybe Ledger is not just overrated considering he overdosed.  Maybe its because of his tremendous skills that the world mourned the lost of a great actor.  Just because he died does not guarantee that he would be praised for his acting skills by the most influential and authoritative figures on the subject matter.  There are plenty of actors who die and don't get  loads of praise for sub-par acting skills, and they certainly aren't awarded if they only have sub-par acting skills.

If it would have made a difference, I would have negged ur post btw.  I almost mistook u for a troll.

Sure, this is about opinion, but make an informed post about the matter.  The matter of his death was already discussed here.  If you personally don't like him, you can say that, but trying to claim that he was given courtesy praise and awards because he died is asinine.  Especially considering that he was getting credit for his acting before he died as well.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and how many Actors delivered career defining performances before dying?



Um... all of them? 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> only because he's a corpse..its the same reason a certain famous and legendary figure is revered a demi god despite being a drug abusing mentally unstable person who may or may not have molested kids...



When I first read this sentence for a second there I thought you were talking about Jesus... :amazed


----------



## Xiammes (Jul 27, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Never knew that people could get so into argueing about subjective tastes.
> 
> And OS actually made a good post.



You would be surprised, people will argue over anything.


----------



## OS (Jul 27, 2012)

derailing this


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 27, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Um... all of them?
> 
> 
> 
> When I first read this sentence for a second there I thought you were talking about Jesus... :amazed


----------



## Fang (Jul 27, 2012)

zerothren said:


> Or maybe Ledger is not just overrated considering he overdosed.



Or you could work on that awful reading comprehension, he's over-rated because of sympathy. You could also try reading my other posts in this thread before jumping the gun so blindly like that.



> Maybe its because of his tremendous skills that the world mourned the lost of a great actor.



Or no.

>Brokeback Mountain
>Patriot

Pick none.



> Just because he died does not guarantee that he would be praised for his acting skills by the most influential and authoritative figures on the subject matter.



Or you can look at Michael Jackson whose death had negative critiscm and the child molestation scandals almost completely sidelined during its run on the news.

So once more wrong.



> There are plenty of actors who die and don't get  loads of praise for sub-par acting skills, and they certainly aren't awarded if they only have sub-par acting skills.



Try looking at A-list stars before making that comment. If Marland Brando died after starring in a shitty movie, forecast and precedent would indicate he would get major recognition for it as a courtesy, Hollywood has always run this way.



> If it would have made a difference, I would have negged ur post btw.







> Sure, this is about opinion, but make an informed post about the matter.



Or you can just deal with the fact that he's a not the next coming of Tom Cruise (per-scientology) or Christopher Lee  who rode his pale horse into an Oscar out of pity, respect, and a high billed summer blockbuster thanks to Nolan's ability to write good dramas. 



> The matter of his death was already discussed here.  If you personally don't like him, you can say that, but trying to claim that he was given courtesy praise and awards because he died is asinine.  Especially considering that he was getting credit for his acting before he died as well.



Or you could stop attempting to project so hard. You might again want to stop making such obscenely dense claims like that as if it means a dime in the world. He died a stupid death and its his fault, this is the internet. Get real.


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## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

>Brings up Ledgers past work as if he was still riding on there waves of recognition
>Fucking Mark Hamill had one of the most iconic roles in film, Luke Skywalker

And yeah Im nit picking.


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## Fang (Jul 27, 2012)

>Wing Commander franchise
>DC animated universe
>still one of the top movies of all time
>still a hero to people everywhere
>recognized as one of the best voice actors, praised by Alec Guiness, Irvin Keshner, amongst others, and universally loved

1/10 for making me post


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## mali (Jul 27, 2012)

Fang said:


> >Wing Commander franchise
> >DC animated universe
> >still one of the top movies of all time
> >still a hero to people everywhere
> ...



Oh great, such high waves.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 27, 2012)

People sure taking things super serial.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU8mj9lid0s[/YOUTUBE]


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## Fang (Jul 27, 2012)

OBD 2012 like I said before


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## willyvereb (Jul 27, 2012)

Alright, I think I allowed this thread to run long enough already.
I'm going to lock it in 10 minutes.


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## Es (Jul 27, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmsuRTcEy5U[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49KjkcPRKNU[/YOUTUBE]


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 27, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Um... all of them?



I should rephrase that "before dying immediately after"




Endless Mike said:


> When I first read this sentence for a second there I thought you were talking about Jesus... :amazed



EM are you implying Jesus did drugs


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 27, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> EM are you implying Jesus did drugs



Wine is still a drug .


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