# Tobirama vs The Raikage



## Kyu (Aug 15, 2014)

*Scenario One*

The Second Hokage vs The Fourth Raikage

*Restrictions:* ET
*Mindset:* IC
*Location:* Minato vs Ei & Bee
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Distance:* Minato vs Ei & Bee
*Conditions:*

Ei has both arms

*Scenario Two*

The Second Hokage vs The Third Raikage

*Restrictions:* None
*Mindset:* IC
*Location:* Datclone vs Sandaime Raikage
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Distance:* Datclone vs Sandaime Raikage
*Conditions:*

Tobirama can revive up to 4 leaf jonin/anbu fodder
Tobirama has a sword


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## Hachibi (Aug 15, 2014)

Tobirama win mid-high difficulty against Ei. Hiraishingiri can go though his Raiton imo
Could go either way against Third Raikage, tho I favor Raikagenaut more


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## Trojan (Aug 15, 2014)

Tobirama loses both.

The battle might start the same as with Minato, but since Tobirama is inferior in term of shunshin, FTG, and reaction speed, he will get his head cut off probably. Even if not, he still can't really damage A with what we have seen from him except with his explosion tags jutsu, which will need him to pin A down first, which I don't see happening. 

A also has greater chakra, body, and Taijutsu than Tobirama.

Against the 3rd Raikage, more or less the same, but hurting the 3rd will be much more difficult.


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## Turrin (Aug 15, 2014)

Tobirama vs Ei goes the same way that Ei vs Minato did, with Ei getting blitz. Tobirama probably wouldn't finish off Ei in the first blitz, but he'd at least FTG tag him and from there repeated FTG blitzs will eventually make Ei submit. 

Tobirama would also beat Sandaime-Raikage given these conditions. He FTG tag Sandaime, and from there he'd  teleport his Edo-Tensei into Sandaime-Raikage to go boom with Tandem-Explosive Tags. I don't see even Sandaime Raikage survived x4 Tandem-Explosive Tags used against him multiple times.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 15, 2014)

Tobirama doesn't have Hashirama to restrain his target here, I don't see how he's going to hit either of the Raikage with an attack that doesn't seem any faster than a thrown kunai (his explosive tags).

Furthermore, he's not an edo tensei. As with any Tobirama match ups, using that technique in the first place is going to be incredibly difficult because he has to get out of it's range first. As long as the Raikage can mitigate whatever distance Tobirama tries to create between them (by running after him), he's never going to be able to detonate those tags without blowing himself up too. There's a reason Tobirama created that technique for his Edo Tensei zombies and not for himself.

That being said, Tobirama's Edo Tensei zombies were significantly weaker than Kabuto's, and even Orochimaru's (which were already pretty weak). If he revives 4 Jounin fodder, the Sandaime can all but ignore their attempts at attacking him and continue to focus his attention on Tobirama while he attempts to run off to a distance.

With that out of the way, Tobirama's only other methods of inflicting damage are via his suiton and his sword. Naturally, both are extremely ineffective.  In fact, if they were to make contact with either of them while their raiton cloaks were active he would be electrocuted. I don't see what " FTG blitzes " are going to do either, because Tobirama still can't injure ether of them even if he could out-speed them.

That said, because of Tobirama's speed advantage (over the Sandaime at least), his Kage Bunshin feints and FTG, I don't see the Raikage landing many hits on Tobirama all too quickly. I'd say Tobirama has enormous chakra reserves too, so it probably isn't likely that Ei or Sandaime Raikage will win by virtue of their attrition. 

Generally speaking, Tobirama is a little bit stronger than either of these Kage, but they aren't a good match-up for him, and I would say sooner or later one of them will hit him by virtue of their speed (Ei) or by the AoE of their attacks (Sandaime's Nukite). That might weaken him enough for a follow up blow to end the match, but it's a hard match to call.​​


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## J★J♥ (Aug 15, 2014)

Tobirama shits on A, you can add Minato on As side they still get shitted on.


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## Cognitios (Aug 15, 2014)

inb4 hussain saying minato fodderstomps tobirama and ei at once


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 15, 2014)

tobirama vs Ei: Tobirama defeat Ei over a long drawn out fight

Tobirama vs Sandaime Raikage:  50/50

It all depends IF the sandaime raikage can tank multiple blasts of Tandem-Explosive Tags.


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## Veracity (Aug 15, 2014)

Tobirama rapes Ay. And to the person that said Tobirama will have trouble touching Ay, you have no idea what you are talking about. A simple Kage Bunshin trick can tag Ay every single time. And tagged surfaces result in Ay's max powered shunshin being avoid casually. A Kage Bunshin is sent out which gets lighting chopped, but FTG tags Ay like 15 times. From there on it's, Warped FTG slashes and pressurized water beams into Ay's jugular which will kill him eventually.

Tobirama against Sandiame is weird. He is tiers above him, but he really doesn't have the offensive output to kill him. Read OP. Against Sandiame , Tobirama warps 5 infinite explosions into his forehead. Tobirama wins both battles low difficulty. Both Minato and Tobirama are tiers above these guys. EMS Madara mentioned that his power was always close to Tobirama and he was able to rape the 5 Kage. Ay and Sandaime don't do shit.


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## Mercurial (Aug 15, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> EMS Madara mentioned that his power was always close to Tobirama.


When did he? I agree that tobirama wins though.


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## Veracity (Aug 15, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> When did he? I agree that tobirama wins though.



Saying " call it confidence, call it fate... but there's a gulf between our skills now ." Pushes the notion that there skills were once very close before the Sage enhancement. : HERE


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 15, 2014)

Tobirama and Madara seemed as convinced his sword would kill Juubi Jin Madara, as Minato, Bee, and Raikage were that Minato's kunai would kill Ei.  

Whether any of us are as convinced is a key to this match.


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## Rocky (Aug 15, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Saying " call it confidence, call it fate... but there's a gulf between our skills now ." Pushes the notion that there skills were once very close before the Sage enhancement. : HERE



He was talking about both brothers, but Tobirama wasn't on Hashirama and Madara's level.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 15, 2014)

Don't see how the tags are placed on a lightning infused body regardless- they're destroyed the moment it touches his body- for both Raikage. The explosives wouldn't kill the 3rd Raikage, and it's debatable whether it'd kill Ei. 

Other than that technique he has no options in killing them, Ei tanked Chidori, withstood Enton splash on his arm without a burn mark and tanked light travel without a head ache, the 3rd Raikage's Edo body wasn't destroyed by Naruto's FRS and the dude lasted against 10,000 versatile ninja spamming who knows what onto his body for three days, he also tanked all of Temari's wind attacks- these techniques and feats are superior to any damage variant Tobirama possesses. 

They can both outlast him as well. Ei has "bijuu" level reserves, his father already has a feat of lasting three days outnumbered 10,000 to 1, and their bodies are the perfect shell to create a god out of stamina-wise.


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## egressmadara (Aug 15, 2014)

Can't see him losing to A at all, although he'd probably lost to his father


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## Veracity (Aug 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He was talking about both brothers, but Tobirama wasn't on Hashirama and Madara's level.



What ? Explain. Doesn't really matter anyway as Tobirama with Edo can defeat both of these opponents at the same time.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 15, 2014)

Ay runs circles around him. FTG isn't running speed.


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## Veracity (Aug 15, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Ay runs circles around him. FTG isn't running speed.



Yet you forget that Tobirama has a shunshin around the speed of Minato's, and reactions superior to Ay? He also haz a Justu that instantaneously teleports him around the field, and Riduko level handspeed . Lol your just hating cause Tobirama would fuck on Gaara.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 15, 2014)

Tobirama's shunshin was noticeably behind Minato's in speed, to the point that he even commented on it. Minato's shunshin was not any higher than V2 Ei's either, only his reaction speed was. Ei can't " run circles around " Tobirama, no, but to suggest that Ei would be repeatedly blitzed is equally as unlikely.​​


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## Veracity (Aug 15, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tobirama's shunshin was noticeably behind Minato's in speed, to the point that he even commented on it. Minato's shunshin was not any higher than V2 Ei's either, only his reaction speed was. Ei can't " run circles around " Tobirama, no, but to suggest that Ei would be repeatedly blitzed is equally as unlikely.​​



Viz translation says his teleportation is better which makes sense considering at that time Tobiramas PIS didn't allow him to use FTG lvl 2 on conventional battle up until Sage Madara Arc.

? Nobody said Minato or Tobirama shunshin was superior to Ay's. Only was his reactions being superior to Ays has been mentioned.
? If Ay gets tagged then yes he gets casually and constantly blitzed considering he cannot react to Tobiramas handspeed( FTG slash) and Tobirama can just teleport to his area and land already charged Suiton.


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## Kyu (Aug 15, 2014)

> Viz translation says his teleportation is better



'Better teleportation' meaning Minato's reactions are better(which is what FTG activates upon) or Minato has superior range to were he can teleport?


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## Veracity (Aug 15, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tobirama's shunshin was noticeably behind Minato's in speed, to the point that he even commented on it. Minato's shunshin was not any higher than V2 Ei's either, only his reaction speed was. Ei can't " run circles around " Tobirama, no, but to suggest that Ei would be repeatedly blitzed is equally as unlikely.​​





Kyu said:


> 'Better teleportation' meaning Minato's reactions are better(which is what FTG activates upon) or Minato has superior range to were he can teleport?



Not at all. Better teleportation as in Minato was far more efficient with FTG considering he had pre-made FTG level 2 tagged Kunai he could use at his disposal.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 15, 2014)

50/50 on him beating A since tobirama's movement speed and reactions are lower than minato's which is the minimum to be far enough above A to totally outclass him. Not to mention A has bigger reserves of chakra going off showings and character hype. However tobirama is smarter and more tactical if he could make distance to lay tags, set up bunshins and sneak a tag on A he would win. Being able to reach him anytime, somewhat safe mid range suitons and clone game is nothing to scoff at.

I don't not see him beating third raikage however seeing as sword strikes or suitons won't dent someone who could fight the hachibi they both collapsed(hint: third raikages stamina threshold peaks around 3 days and nights....yeah imagine that). So long as the third is not a complete dumbass the tag explosion jutsu won't kill him(even sarutobi could evade it once casually and considering the thirds tanking ability it would take multiple times to do the trick). Having fodder edo's lowers the effectiveness even more when you seriously take into account the thirds speed.

So yeah 50/50 on A and he is not beating the 3rd that's my opinion.


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## ARGUS (Aug 16, 2014)

Tobirama wins this because of the conditions, 

--4 edos would mean that tobirama can fire off GKFx4 which will easily bypass A's raiton armor and kill him, and with tobirama being able to mark the edos alongside A not having a sealing jutsu, as well as tobirama being able to enhance his use of FTG through KB and kunais, A is not winning this,


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 16, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Viz translation says his teleportation is better which makes sense considering at that time Tobiramas PIS didn't allow him to use FTG lvl 2 on conventional battle up until Sage Madara Arc.



Minato wasn't using any teleportation _here_, he was using a shunshin. If that really is what the viz translation said, then the translation is surely wrong. Hiruzen even attributes Minato's feat to his speed, and FTG is not speed because it is instantaneous, further implying that it wasn't used in that situation. Besides anything else, Minato had no markings on Naruto's battlefield, so I don't see how he could have teleported there.



> • Nobody said Minato or Tobirama shunshin was superior to Ay's. Only was his reactions being superior to Ays has been mentioned.



What proves that his reactions are better than V2 Ei's? 



> • If Ay gets tagged then yes he gets casually and constantly blitzed considering he cannot react to Tobiramas handspeed( FTG slash) and Tobirama can just teleport to his area and land already charged Suiton.



You realise that FTG slash is going to inflict zero damage, right? I mean, it literally won't even scratch Ei. This is the man who went through Mabui's Lightning Transfer Technque and came out completely unharmed, even without his RNY activated. He will laugh at Tobirama's feeble attempts to maim him. And no, Tobirama repeatedly hitting him with it is still going to inflict virtually no damage.

We've never seen Tobirama charge a technique like a suiton, then make the handseal for FTG and teleport, and then actually use the suiton. That would mean he's gathering chakra for two techniques simultaneously and there are practically no shinobi who can do that. 

Also, for Ei to get constantly and casually blitzed in the first place, Tobirama would have to actually hit him . . which is a) really unlikely, and b) Ei could destroy whatever part of his skin the seal has been attached to if he so wished, mitigating Tobirama's FTG altogether.​​


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## Kyu (Aug 16, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama wins this because of the conditions,
> 
> --4 edos would mean that tobirama can fire off GKFx4 which will easily bypass A's raiton armor and kill him, and with tobirama being able to mark the edos alongside A not having a sealing jutsu, as well as tobirama being able to enhance his use of FTG through KB and kunais, A is not winning this,



Read the opening post, ET is restricted versus Ei.


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## SSMG (Aug 16, 2014)

Tobirama should win against ei as he has better reaction feats than kcm minato who shits on eis speed. 
against his father iunno if tobirama has anything that would put him down n.iunno of the raikage is gunna ever hit him. Third wins imo a battle of attrition.


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## Veracity (Aug 16, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Minato wasn't using any teleportation _here_, he was using a shunshin. If that really is what the viz translation said, then the translation is surely wrong. Hiruzen even attributes Minato's feat to his speed, and FTG is not speed because it is instantaneous, further implying that it wasn't used in that situation. Besides anything else, Minato had no markings on Naruto's battlefield, so I don't see how he could have teleported there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do you even know Minato wasn't using FTG there ? He could have easily used FTG to distance the gap and get to the battle field faster then eveyone else which explains why later on the battle Tobirama could react to certain attacks even faster then KCM Minato. I'm not going to sit here and believe that A) base Minato has a faster shunshin then Tobirama despite Tobirama fighting in conjunction along side KCM Minato and B) I'm not going to believe Tobirama, Hirzuen( LOL) , and Hashirama all posses the EXACT same shunshin speed considering they arrived at the battlefield the same time? You can believe that the Viz translatation I wrong that's on you . But your " teleportation is better "leads me to believe that he was talking about FTG, and I'm not going to sit here and agree with the inconsistent other translations.

His reactions are better then V2 Ay's considering he was able to Tag Juubito. Simple as that.

I honestly don't really care what impressive feats you think Ay has. Facts are,  Sasukes Chidori pierced 3 inches into Ay's chest; _here_, 
And if that technique had been aimed towers his jugular, Spinal cord, or temple he would have killed Ay on the spot. The damage Chidori deals is sometimes paralleled to what a sword slash does, I'm  under the impression that he could equal the Damage output of Chidori with like 6 sword strikes. You realize that well placed jabs to the temple could severely injure or kill a human being. So 6 FTG strikes to the temple wouldn't kill Ay ? Lol, I'm not arguing against you if you think he survives that. 

I wasn't under the impression Tobirama needed to cast a seal to teleport: _here_
_here_
And want Minato able to charge a resengan then teleport and use it against Obito ?

Lol let me break this down to you sense you don't even know what im talking about lol. There is no way Ay can stop himself from getting hit, unless you assume he goes 100% defense and physically does nothing offensively. Which is completely against his character btw. But anyway, the moment Ay lands a hit on a clone, he gets tagged about 10-15 times . Let me Introduce you to the reason Tobirama handspeed shits on eveyone else's: 

Link removed
Being able to tag Juubito 5 times with one arm before he got out the AoE of his arm mid shunshin . Mind you, Juubitos shunshin absolutely shits on Ay's. This is the reason Tobirama will be able to tag Ay so many times even before his Kage Bunshin is dispursed, he even has the reactions to tag and warp away from Ay before he even hits him. Ay gets shitted on. 

A) How would Ay destroy the tags ?
B) Would Ay in character going do so ?
C) Is Tobirama going to sit there and watch him do so ?
D) What happens when Tobirama starts tagging vital parts like his neck or face ?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 16, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> How do you even know Minato wasn't using FTG there ? He could have easily used FTG to distance the gap and get to the battle field faster then eveyone else which explains why later on the battle Tobirama could react to certain attacks even faster then KCM Minato.



Because we never saw him use FTG, it was never implied that he used FTG, and we have no reason to believe that he used it. Basically, if you were to argue that he used FTG there it would be a baseless argument centred around your own opinion rather than on canon fact. Also reaction speed is completely independent to movement speed. Even if Tobirama did react to certain attacks before KCM Minato (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here), that doesn't mean he _moves_ faster.



> I'm not going to sit here and believe that A) base Minato has a faster shunshin then Tobirama despite Tobirama fighting in conjunction along side KCM Minato and B) I'm not going to believe Tobirama, Hirzuen( LOL) , and Hashirama all posses the EXACT same shunshin speed considering they arrived at the battlefield the same time?



There are several problems with your argument here.


 You're assuming that Hashirama, Tobirama and Hiruzen all shunshin'd at the same time. If Hiruzen shunshin'd before the other two did, for example, then it makes sense that he might arrive on the battlefield at the same time as they did if they shunshin'd after him.
 You're also assuming that Kishimoto was actually trying to imply that they moved at the same speed. In reality it was just a dramatic entry (many dramatic entries are not an accurate reflection of speed), and one where we have actual reason to believe that the fighters who arrived together are not at the same level of speed as one another.



> You can believe that the Viz translatation I wrong that's on you . But your " teleportation is better "leads me to believe that he was talking about FTG, and I'm not going to sit here and agree with the inconsistent other translations.



This translation evidently is no more accurate than the others, so you can look at the translation, or you can look at the specifics of the situation and then apply common sense. That is entirely up to you.



> His reactions are better then V2 Ay's considering he was able to Tag Juubito. Simple as that.



He tagged Juubito while he was being cut in half. Tobirama's body took the impact of the blow, naturally reducing the speed behind Juubito's blow. . Even then Tobirama only landed a _glancing_ blow. It wasn't just his speed that was involved, it was his clever use of waiting until his opponent was unsuspecting and let his guard down. It is akin to Sakura smashing Sandaime Kazekage puppet, or Tsunade punching over a Susano'o clone. It wasn't just because they moved swiftly, it was because they waited until their opponents didn't expect them to be able to retaliate and let their guards down. Ei - who could dodge an Amaterasu at point blank range, should surely be capable of the same thing.



> I honestly don't really care what impressive feats you think Ay has. Facts are,  Sasukes Chidori pierced 3 inches into Ay's chest; Link removed,
> And if that technique had been aimed towers his jugular, Spinal cord, or temple he would have killed Ay on the spot. The damage Chidori deals is sometimes paralleled to what a sword slash does,



I implore you to prove that. The Chidori's cutting power is significantly greater than that of a sword's. There's a reason Base Ei moving at the speed of a lightning bolt failed to cut him at all whatsoever, yet Chidori managed to impale him n V2. 



> I'm  under the impression that he could equal the Damage output of Chidori with like 6 sword strikes.



In that case, Ei is going to destroy whatever part of his skin that has been hit with a FTG tag, or else cover his weak spot with an arm. Besides that, Tobirama has the problem of actually tagging Ei in the first place, which is going to be incredibly difficult.



> You realize that well placed jabs to the temple could severely injure or kill a human being. So 6 FTG strikes to the temple wouldn't kill Ay ? Lol, I'm not arguing against you if you think he survives that.



Tobirama's sword is just a regular sword. Ei literally moved inside of a lightning bolt with his skin being repeatedly pulled apart at rapid speeds, and yet he came out unharmed. You just need to accept that Sasuke's Chidori >>> Tobirama's sword in cutting power. Tobirama is never going to land 6 hits to Ei's head either . . ever.



> I wasn't under the impression Tobirama needed to cast a seal to teleport: Link removed
> Link removed
> And want Minato able to charge a resengan then teleport and use it against Obito ?



No, he wasn't. He teleported behind Obito, then charged the Rasengan and threw it on top of him. And I'm not sure what that scan proves, all we see is that Tobirama placed FTG tags, not that he teleported.



> Lol let me break this down to you sense you don't even know what im talking about lol. There is no way Ay can stop himself from getting hit, unless you assume he goes 100% defense and physically does nothing offensively. Which is completely against his character btw.



Please don't try to patronise me. 

Tobirama would need to be physically faster than Ei to hit him with  FTG tag, which he isn't, so he isn't going to repeatedly blitz him.



> But anyway, the moment Ay lands a hit on a clone, he gets tagged about 10-15 times .



No he doesn't . Tobirama's use of Kage Bunshin will certainly be vital if he is to ever win the match-up, but don't try to act like they give Tobirama some kind of guaranteed win and allow him to wtf blitz Ei over and over and make the match a stomp in Tobirama's favor. The reality is that Ei is faster than him physically, and won't be blitzed. He might get surprise attacked if he hits Tobirama, who then uses the opportunity to plant explosives on Ei while he's unsuspecting. However, that is not a blitz, nor is it something he can do over and over because Ei will catch on.



> Link removed
> Being able to tag Juubito 5 times with one arm before he got out the AoE of his arm mid shunshin . Mind you, Juubitos shunshin absolutely shits on Ay's. This is the reason Tobirama will be able to tag Ay so many times even before his Kage Bunshin is dispursed, he even has the reactions to tag and warp away from Ay before he even hits him. Ay gets shitted on.



. . really? How many explosive tags do you actually think that Tobirama has? He probably only has a bout 5-10, and 5-10 explosive tags are not doing jack shit to V2 Ei. The sooner you accept that the better. 



> A) How would Ay destroy the tags ?



Why would he need to destroy them? He casually tanks the damage they inflict.



> C) Is Tobirama going to sit there and watch him do so ?



Yes.



> D) What happens when Tobirama starts tagging vital parts like his neck or face ?



With explosives? He tanks them and continues on as if nothing happened.​​


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Tobirama should win against ei as he has better reaction feats than kcm minato who shits on eis speed.
> against his father iunno if tobirama has anything that would put him down n.iunno of the raikage is gunna ever hit him. Third wins imo a battle of attrition.



agains a slower, mindless obito

against faster, in control obito




Likes boss said:


> Yet you forget that Tobirama has a shunshin around the speed of Minato's


just curious, but has Tobirama ever shown any shunshin that is not FTG?


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## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> agains a slower, mindless obito
> 
> against faster, in control obito
> 
> ...


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

> =Godaime Tsunade;51485718]
> 
> Minato wasn't using any teleportation _here_, he was using a shunshin. If that really is what the viz translation said, then the translation is surely wrong. Hiruzen even attributes Minato's feat to his speed, and FTG is not speed because it is instantaneous, further implying that it wasn't used in that situation. Besides anything else, Minato had no markings on Naruto's battlefield, so I don't see how he could have teleported there.​




Hiruzen was saying Minato is fast as ever, his speed is mainly from FTG

and as you may see in this same scan FTG is obviously speed
"his high speed movement" 
and A, Madara...etc consider it as speed as well...

besides the fact that Minato had marking on Naruto obviously





> You realise that FTG slash is going to inflict zero damage, right? I mean, it literally won't even scratch Ei. This is the man who went through Mabui's Lightning Transfer Technque and came out completely unharmed, even without his RNY activated. He will laugh at Tobirama's feeble attempts to maim him. And no, Tobirama repeatedly hitting him with it is still going to inflict virtually no damage.


He also tanked Sasuke's sword that powered up by his chidori 




> Also, for Ei to get constantly and casually blitzed in the first place, Tobirama would have to actually hit him . . which is a) really unlikely, and b) Ei could destroy whatever part of his skin the seal has been attached to if he so wished, mitigating Tobirama's FTG altogether.


​
in addition to the fact that regardless of the FTG speed, it also depends of the user's physical speed
like even though Juubiless Madara is slower than the FTG itself, he was able to dodge Tobirama and defeat him, just like Juubi's host Madara counterattack Minato, even though he is still slower than the
FTG itself... U_U


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## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

How could one FTG be slower than an other when they're both instant? :sanji


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

this not shunshin though. 
it's like when Taka saved Sasuke from A's attack. 

I mean shunshin like in this for example


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## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> this not shunshin though.
> *it's like when Taka saved Sasuke from A's attack.*
> 
> I mean shunshin like in this for example



Image doesn't show.
Since when Taka have FTG?


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> How could one FTG be slower than an other when they're both instant? :sanji



like this


or how the Anime presented it (even in the manga actually)


Tobirama teleported first



Minato arrived first

or in the manga
_here_

they teleported, then Minato was shown first, then Hiruzen (who was teleported by Minato)
then Tobirama then Hashirama who was teleported by Tobirama...


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Image doesn't show.
> Since when Taka have FTG?






They don't. 
but, here
_here_

A was going to strike Darui

then
_here_

I suspect Suigetsu is actually way faster than A. 
and there are some other examples... U_U


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## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> like this
> 
> 
> or how the Anime presented it (even in the manga actually)
> ...



Doesn't really mean anything, it's just Kishi presenting them for the most recent Hokage (Minato) to the "oldest" (Hashirama) and shunshin=/=FTG


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## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> They don't.
> but, here
> _here_
> 
> ...



Intercepting feat are taken with a grain of salt because there are inconsistent as fuck (because Base B made a joke out of Suigetsu and he's slower than Ei)


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Doesn't really mean anything, it's just Kishi presenting them for the most recent Hokage (Minato) to the "oldest" (Hashirama) and shunshin=/=FTG



it does, otherwise he would have shown Hashirama first since he it the first Hokage. 



> shunshin=/=FTG


Well, Tobirama, and all the other characters have to disagree
1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]



Hachibi said:


> Intercepting feat are taken with a grain of salt because there are inconsistent as fuck (because Base B made a joke out of Suigetsu and he's slower than Ei)



Yup, which is the same as Tobirama's feat in the scan you posted...


----------



## Veracity (Aug 16, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Because we never saw him use FTG, it was never implied that he used FTG, and we have no reason to believe that he used it. Basically, if you were to argue that he used FTG there it would be a baseless argument centred around your own opinion rather than on canon fact. Also reaction speed is completely independent to movement speed. Even if Tobirama did react to certain attacks before KCM Minato (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here), that doesn't mean he _moves_ faster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He don't need to explicitly see him using FTG for one to use such are you serious?
In exerting that Minato used FTG considering Tobirama is able to accomplish shunshin feats like Shunshining in to catch TBB balls before Minato could even move his finger tips. Would it not be illogical for base Minato would be ridiculously slower then KCM Minato to be faster then Tobirama.

Tobirama did not only react to certain attacks faster then Minato but his movement speed trumped his KCM arm speed at times which atleast makes me believe that his regular shunshin is atleast equal to base Minato's.

Then you could clearly make the assumption that Minato shunshined before them all. He also clearly used FTG lvl 2 while the others were using shunshin: 12

If anything Kishi is trying to imply that Minato's teleportation is better then Tobiramas considering that's what was directly said. If anything you are assuming here while I have direct evidence of Tobirama talking about teleportation lol.

There is really no reason for you to play the common sense card here considering both the stipulations we are presenting here are clearly not concrete and we have no panel evidence of what really happened.

 You are under the impression that Minato used shunshin considering FTG was never shown being used
 I'm under the impression that be used FTG considering BASE Minatos shunshin isn't >>>> Tobiramas and the viz translation says teleportation. 
Don't sit here and pull some you aren't using common sense bullshit. We both have equal amount of evidence here.

Are you freaking kidding me now ? The impact of Tobirama body didn't slow down shit considering:
A) Hashirama who has a flicker that can blitz Sage Naruto, outpaces ocean crossing TBBS, and reacts to EMS + His mountain sized PS casually couldn't even move.
B) Naruto, Sasuke, Hiruzen, and KCM Minato weren't even able to register the fact that Juubito even moved. He pushed through both Tobirama and Hashirama before anyone could even move an inch.

So yeah you have no argument present here at all. Juubitos flicker is still>>>>>>>>>>> V2 Ay and Tobirama was still able to react and land attacks on him while eveyone on the battlefield couldn't even move.

Tobirama didn't land a fucking glancing blow  .

He was able to tag Juubito 5 times with one freaking arm in completely different places. What the hell is a glancing blow to you might I ask ? He was also able to tag the fucker that many times before he got to Hashirama which was probably in the fastest time frame ever considering he was able to cross more then 15m before KCM Minato , Hashirama , KCM naruto , and EMS Sasuke could perceive his movements. 

It had nothing to do with his cunning skill and Juubito not noticing.., he did so DURING A shunshin. That's pure handspeed. Juubito wouldn't have time to react to that shit anyway considering it was between a shunshin.

The Sakura and Tsuande examples are extremely bad. Not even going to consider them . 

Amaterasu is much slower then Juubito.. And Tobiramas handspeed is able to make Juubito look like a Genin.

Yes Chidori's piercing power is greater then a sword strike but 6 well placed sword strikes should atleast equal the same result. Especially when Tobirama is not only faster but physically stronger then Sasuke and can add momentum to his FTG strikes. I feel as if The teleportation technique you speak of is hyped more then it's actual effect is. Light speed travel should in fact turn any Naruto character into meat dust. Tsuande could survive such and she is pretty freaking durable but I see no reason why Tobirama couldn't easily behead her with a chakra flowed sword strike.

Please explain how Ay can destroy these FTG seals( they stay forever. Minato vs OBito) cause you haven't done so yet. Also explain what he does to destroy such without injuring himself if Tobirama was to say tag his jugular.

If Ay covers his weakspot with an arm that's going to reduce his fighting capability drastically. Not only this but he cannot cover his Face, Throat, temple and the back of his neck with one arm.  Tobirama can tag Ay easily. In the EXACT SAME MANNER HE TAGGED JUUBITO. Ay runs through a clone and appears on the other side tagged 10 times.

I know that Chidori >>>>>> Tobirama sword slash. But 6 sword slashes should probably equal the same amount of damage. And once Ay's been FTG seal tagged. Blizting him is no more then warping to the seal attacking with Juubito
Blitzing handspeed and warping away. Simple as that.

Why ignore the first example ? Tobirama clearly warped Naruto and Minato away without creating a seal considering both his arms were touching them.

Resengan was charged before he warped: 12
Meaning he simultaneously did both Resengan and FTG at the same time.

That's the thing though. Tobiramas hand speed is WAYYYYYY faster then Ay. On a Completely different tier. It's ridiculous. All he has to do is sit in one place and have Ay V2 charger through him and sacrifice a clone to FTG tag Ay. Simple as that.

That's the SOLE reason Tobirama beats Ay and most people. KB are the reason he can be ran through Juubito style and still manage to attack his opponent. He could do so as a Edo because he could regenerate. As a human he simple uses KB as a substitute .

Tobirama can easily blitz Ay based on his fighting style. He charges through his opponent lol. He can charge through KB all day but it only results in his ass getting FTG tagged a million times. Which later results in the real Tobirama casually warping to the placed tag and sword slicking his jugular 6 times.

You are mistaken. When I say " tag" Ay I don't mean explosive tags. Those don't do anything. I mean , he Places let's say 10 FTG tags on his body( even though he only needs one) just because he can.

A) I'm not taking about explosive tags lol.
I'm talking bout FTG placement. And infinite explosion would kill Ay.

B) Tobirama is not sitting and watching anywhere when he can instantly warp to Ay casually.


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> it does, otherwise he would have shown Hashirama first since he it the first Hokage.



It's illogical, because they have the same technique (granted, used differently) so unless it's stated that this isn't the same technique, they have the same speed (instant)



> Well, Tobirama, and all the other characters have to disagree
> 1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]



It's not because it's called Shunshin that they aren't S/T technique, unless a FRS is a normal rasengan 



> Yup, which is the same as Tobirama's feat in the scan you posted...



It isn't far-fetched considering he could mark Juubito while being with half of his body blown unlike suigetsu


----------



## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51490610]It's illogical, because they have the same technique (granted, used differently) so unless it's stated that this isn't the same technique, they have the same speed (instant)


it's already stated that they don't have the same speed, and it's already shown as well, but whatever...


> It's not because it's called Shunshin that they aren't S/T technique, unless a FRS is a normal rasengan



O.K, I think you know more than them then... 


> It isn't far-fetched considering he could mark Juubito while being with half of his body blown unlike suigetsu[




Suigutse's body is made of water, and that's why he was not crushed, and even he noted that. 
Tobirama was lucky because Kishi did not apply that Gedu-dama being able to kill the ET to Tobirama
like he did to Minato...


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> it's already stated that they don't have the same speed, and it's already shown as well, but whatever...



Minato > Tobirama in shunshin which is with the Edo-Hokage got in the battlefield in the first place since they neither had any Kunai marked here.



> O.K, I think you know more than them then...



Never said that, just said that because it's called shunshin, doesn't mean it is.(Granted, they are similar)




> Suigutse's body is made of water, and that's why he was not crushed, and even he noted that.
> Tobirama was lucky because Kishi did not apply that Gedu-dama being able to kill the ET to Tobirama
> like he did to Minato...



Proof that Suigetsu can use water to move faster in a area where they're isn't water (inb4 the water is in the air) 

That's because Obito's body was controlled by the Juubi at the time


----------



## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51490703]Minato > Tobirama in shunshin which is with the Edo-Hokage got in the battlefield in the first place since they neither had any Kunai marked here.


already posted the scans for Minato having a seal on Narudo. 



> Never said that, just said that because it's called shunshin, doesn't mean it is.(Granted, they are similar)



but it does mean that the characters refer to it as such. It appears to be the highest level of the "shunshin" since Kishi referred to it as such constantly... 



> Proof that Suigetsu can use water to move faster in a area where they're isn't water (inb4 the water is in the air)
> 
> That's because Obito's body was controlled by the Juubi at the time [



- lol what?  
12
Can you tell me what happened in the first panel?  

- still a lame excuse to save them. Poor Minato..


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> already posted the scans for Minato having a seal on Narudo.



It isn't fair since Tobirama didn't have one  and better doesn't always mean faster btw.



> but it does mean that the characters refer to it as such. It appears to be the highest level of the "shunshin" since Kishi referred to it as such constantly...



Only for Hiraishin and Rinnegan Teleport. It's weird Kamui or Kaguya's Dimension'ing didn't get called that. 



> - lol what?
> 12
> Can you tell me what happened in the first panel?



He said that he would lose his arm if he wasn't made of water. 



> - still a lame excuse to save them. Poor Minato..



Since when it is a lame excuse? Tobirama has better reaction than Minato.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51490799]It isn't fair since Tobirama didn't have one  and better doesn't always mean faster btw.


He must have teleported to Madara with seal-less FTG then. 
12

the event was about who arrived first, and it was to establish the fastest one. 



> Only for Hiraishin and Rinnegan Teleport. It's weird Kamui or Kaguya's Dimension'ing didn't get called that.


and we are debating the FTG, and it what matters here. 
and Kaguya's jutsu was not even giving an official name yet as far as I know...


> He said that he would lose his arm if he wasn't made of water.


Yeah, which I told you that, and it's the point of posting that scan...
I think you might want to reread the debate... 


> Since when it is a lame excuse? Tobirama has better reaction than Minato.



Tobirama turned into ashes, against a slower opponents,and suffered more damage.
Minato's reaction speed is at least a tier or two superior to Tobirama's, otherwise Obito would have
been able to completely destroy him.


anyway, that does not matter, What can Tobirama do to defeat A exactly?


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> He must have teleported to Madara with seal-less FTG then.
> 12
> 
> the even was about who arrived first, and it was to establish the fastest one.



Tobirama didn't know the Kunai Trick back then.



> and we are debating the FTG, and it what matters here.
> and Kaguya's jutsu was not even giving an official name yet as far as I know...



Agree to Disagree then.



> Yeah, which I told you that, and it's the point of posting that scan...
> I think you might want to reread the debate...



Nah, the point of the debate is that Suigetsu intercepting A is a outlier considering he couldn't track Base Bee speed, someone who's slower than V1 Ei



> Tobirama turned into ashes, against a slower opponents,and suffered more damage.
> Minato's reaction speed is at least a tier or two superior to Tobirama's, otherwise Obito would have
> been able to completely destroy him.



Minato and his clone got kicked by V1 Juubito's lower part when he was at his weakest (ie fat)




> anyway, that does not matter, What can Tobirama do to defeat A exactly?



Already posted my thought on the first page. I'm just passing time with you


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51490941]Tobirama didn't know the Kunai Trick back then.


What does the Kunai have to do with him teleporting to Madara?





> Minato and his clone got kicked by V1 Juubito's lower part when he was at his weakest (ie fat)


Yeah, when he turned around to try to save Naruto and Sasuke.
and actually he blocked it, see his arm closely...


> Already posted my thought on the first page. I'm just passing time with you


ok then....

See you later, I'm kinda bored...


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> What does the Kunai have to do with him teleporting to Madara?



Make it easier to hit him.




> Yeah, when he turned around to try to save Naruto and Sasuke.
> and actually he blocked it, see his arm closely...



He still got pushed back, kind of like Revived Madara vs SM Naruto.



> ok then....
> 
> See you later, I'm kinda bored...



Have fun.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 16, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yet you forget that Tobirama has a shunshin around the speed of Minato's, and reactions superior to Ay? He also haz a Justu that instantaneously teleports him around the field, and Riduko level handspeed . Lol your just hating cause Tobirama would fuck on Gaara.



And Ay doesn't? 
Bring up Gaara why?

Gaara could beat Tobiramain a desert. Shut the fuck up and kiss my white ass.


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## Ashi (Aug 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Tobirama managed to mark Juubito  (granted, he lost half of his body doing so)
> 
> Also LelTensa



Obito wasn't as fast as A





So the same will happen

Only he will have a thick meaty black lodged in him


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## Hachibi (Aug 16, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Obito wasn't as fast as A
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Must be why V1 Juubito blitzed both KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke at the same time.


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## joshhookway (Aug 16, 2014)

Tobirama destroys the Raikage at the same time. He's on the speed of Juubito. Raikages are too slow to land anything. Tobirama can also teleport if he's in any trouble.

Tobirama's water gun cut the god tree and it would cut the Raikage's heads easily.


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## Turrin (Aug 17, 2014)

Tobirama's reaction time may not be quite as quick as Minato's, but that doesn't mean he'll be blitz'd. Ei came close to Minato's face with his punch, but Minato also took time to place a FTG-Kunai next to Ei. That's why the second time Ei attempts a blitz, despite Minato's back being turned he teleported away before Ei's fist go as close to him as the first time. Ei may prevent Tobirama from placing that first FTG-marker, but he won't hit him. From there Tobirama can out match him by simply teleporting between FTG-markers and even utilizing KB as warp points. Raiton no Yoroi may be tough, but Tobirama is a physical beast; he cracked a wall by just touching it, his Hiraishingiri slash should at least do some minor damage to Ei and eventually damage will accumulate through successive Hiraishingiri; even Ei will die to blood-loss at a certain point


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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama's reaction time may not be quite as quick as Minato's, but that doesn't mean he'll be blitz'd. Ei came close to Minato's face with his punch, but Minato also took time to place a FTG-Kunai next to Ei. That's why the second time Ei attempts a blitz, despite Minato's back being turned he teleported away before Ei's fist go as close to him as the first time. Ei may prevent Tobirama from placing that first FTG-marker, but he won't hit him. From there Tobirama can out match him by simply teleporting between FTG-markers and even utilizing KB as warp points. Raiton no Yoroi may be tough, but Tobirama is a physical beast; he cracked a wall by just touching it, his Hiraishingiri slash should at least do some minor damage to Ei and eventually damage will accumulate through successive Hiraishingiri; even Ei will die to blood-loss at a certain point



regardless of Tobirama does not use a lot of marks in his fights as far as we know, but again, since
Minato was almost hit, and he is superior to Tobirama in speed, reaction, reflexes...etc chances he's going to get Tobirama is very high, especially that his reflexes are on par with Minato (which means superior to Tobirama's) 

- Hiruzen and Oro kinda did the same with their chakra as well, still not comparable to A's.



> his Hiraishingiri slash should at least do some minor damage to Ei and eventually damage will accumulate through successive Hiraishingiri; even Ei will die to blood-loss at a certain point



Why do you think his slash is stronger than Sasuke's legendary sword which was powered up by
lightning? Which did not even scratch A.


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## The World (Aug 17, 2014)

Wait are people seriously thinking that Tobirama would lose to Raikage?



Tobirama the same dude who took out an MS uchiha, Mads brother in one blow?

Same dude who isn't suppose to be that far behind his brother?


----------



## Ghost (Aug 17, 2014)

^ Taking out featless Izuna is not much. And Tobirama is not even close to his brother's strength. 

We saw that Minato is not able to dodge Ei with his shunshin and Tobi is even slower. The Hokage also doesn't have much that can hurt the Raikage.


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## Veracity (Aug 17, 2014)

These feats itself should tell you that Tobirama should have no problem reacting to things BASEEEEEEEE MINATO could react to. KCM Minato and Juubito are on completely different tiers then Ay or base Minato. Even if it's an interception feat I mean reacting to KCM Minato who is logically tiers above base Minato( I mean look at Base Naruto to KCM Naruto), and not only reacting to something KCM Minato did but OUTDOING him leads me to believe that Tobirama is atleast equal to base Minato in reactions. Simple as that.

[1]
 [1]


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 17, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Hiruzen was saying Minato is fast as ever, his speed is mainly from FTG
> 
> and as you may see in this same scan FTG is obviously speed
> "his high speed movement"
> ...



That translation is probably just wrong then. Shunshin no jutsu is different to Hiraishin, and had nothing to do with the seal placed on Naruto. Also, the databook says _" flight across space and time completed in a flash-like instant "_ and that _" it is not comparable to the movement speed of shunshin "_, instead it notes that Minato's high-speed movement is IN ACTUALITY a _" space-time movement "_. Essentially, it isn't speed, because it is instant. Ei, Madara etc. considered Minato to be so fast because of his incredibly high reactions which allowed him to teleport in the first place.



Likes boss said:


> He don't need to explicitly see him using FTG for one to use such are you serious?
> In exerting that Minato used FTG considering Tobirama is able to accomplish shunshin feats like Shunshining in to catch TBB balls before Minato could even move his finger tips. Would it not be illogical for base Minato would be ridiculously slower then KCM Minato to be faster then Tobirama.
> 
> Tobirama did not only react to certain attacks faster then Minato but his movement speed trumped his KCM arm speed at times which atleast makes me believe that his regular shunshin is atleast equal to base Minato's.
> ...



This is a massive TLDR, and seeing as how you didn't actually quote anything that I wrote and just haphazardly made a clusterfuck of points that don't ascertain as to what they are actually in response to, I have no time nor energy to reply to you. I also don't care enough about this argument to invest so much time in it.​​


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## Veracity (Aug 17, 2014)

I post all my shit from my iphone meaning it's impossible for me to quote every single one of your posts directly as much as I would want to.


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## Turrin (Aug 17, 2014)

Hussain said:


> regardless of Tobirama does not use a lot of marks in his fights as far as we know, but again, since
> Minato was almost hit, and he is superior to Tobirama in speed, reaction, reflexes...etc chances he's going to get Tobirama is very high


Like I said, when Minato did not place a FTG-Kunai he much more casually evade Ei. Tobirama is not that much slower than Minato, that he'd get blitz'd by someone that Minato can evade casually. In-fact I doubt that Hashirama-SM-Rinnegan-Madara is slower than Ei and he evaded Madara's attack just fine; and that was a Tobirama who speed Madara specifically remarked had decreased. Tobirama also reacted to Juubito, and while he got hit by Juubito's attack, he still had enough time to place multiple explosive-tags and a FTG-marker on Juubito; if he didn't do that he most likely could have evaded Juubito, and even if he couldn't it would have been very close and again we're talking about a Tobirama whose speed had decreased against an entity whose much faster than Ei.

The best Ei could do is prevent Tobirama from placing as many FTG-Markers as Minato had time to place, but even still it would simply result in Tobirama eventually doing this to him:
[2]

The difference being that Minato specifically waited till Ei was in close range to warp-away so he could place a FTG marker near him



> especially that his reflexes are on par with Minato (which means superior to Tobirama's)


Ei's reflexes are vastly superior to Minato's. It's Base-Ei who has reflexes that are equivalent to Minato, but Raiton no Yoroi than enhances Ei's reflexes even further beyond that "level". So Ei having superior reflexes really has little to do with Tobirama's ability to evade his attack, just like they didn't in the case of Minato.



> Why do you think his slash is stronger than Sasuke's legendary sword which was powered up by
> lightning? Which did not even scratch A.


Why was Minato's Kunai slash very clearly presented as a threat to Ei, despite Ei having his shroud fully amped?


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## Ashi (Aug 17, 2014)

Shunshin is just another word for teleport


Why is this so hard to grasp


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## Bonly (Aug 17, 2014)

Only thing Tobi has that might hurt A is Suiton: Suidanha so depending on how much damage it does Tobi might have a shot at being A though without ET I'd favor A more times then not.  As for the Sandaime Tobi should win more times then not with repeated use of Gojō Kibaku Fuda


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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2014)

> =Turrin;51493395]Like I said, when Minato did not place a FTG-Kunai he much more casually evade Ei. Tobirama is not that much slower than Minato, that he'd get blitz'd by someone that Minato can evade casually. In-fact I doubt that Hashirama-SM-Rinnegan-Madara is slower than Ei and he evaded Madara's attack just fine; and that was a Tobirama who speed Madara specifically remarked had decreased. Tobirama also reacted to Juubito, and while he got hit by Juubito's attack, he still had enough time to place multiple explosive-tags and a FTG-marker on Juubito; if he didn't do that he most likely could have evaded Juubito, and even if he couldn't it would have been very close and again we're talking about a Tobirama whose speed had decreased against an entity whose much faster than Ei.



Pretty sure Rinnegan-SM Madara is slower. As a matter of fact the Rinnegan has nothing to do with
the speed to begin with, and even Hashirama himself was not shown to be that fast either...

- I don't call losing half of his body reaction honestly. He reacted to his as much as the ANBU reacted to obito when he killed them I suppose...

- mmm, what do you mean his speed had decreased? 



> The best Ei could do is prevent Tobirama from placing as many FTG-Markers as Minato had time to place, but even still it would simply result in Tobirama eventually doing this to him:
> fast guided lasers


why would that matter even if it happened? It won't scratch A. 



> The difference being that Minato specifically waited till Ei was in close range to warp-away so he could place a FTG marker near him


ok... 



> Ei's reflexes are vastly superior to Minato's. It's Base-Ei who has reflexes that are equivalent to Minato, but Raiton no Yoroi than enhances Ei's reflexes even further beyond that "level". So Ei having superior reflexes really has little to do with Tobirama's ability to evade his attack, just like they didn't in the case of Minato.



let's say that for the sake of the argument, it's still won't make it any better for Tobirama's case. 
and reflexes are important to attack, otherwise he will just get counterattacked no matter how much faster he it...


> Why was Minato's Kunai slash very clearly presented as a threat to Ei, despite Ei having his shroud fully amped?


1- Minato's Kunai is different and heavier.
2- we saw Minato's feat of cutting B's tail.

Tobirama showed none of that, In addition, from their off-panel fights, we just have to assume that Minato used different things like for example the sealing jutsus since A talked about them, and those 
kinda of stuff.

We don't know how much damage would that attack do to him had it landed... @>@



TensaXZangetsu said:


> Shunshin is just another word for teleport
> Why is this so hard to grasp



I know right!  
even if kishi repeats that a billion time, it's still not enough.


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## Seraphiel (Aug 18, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Shunshin is just another word for teleport
> 
> 
> Why is this so hard to grasp



Yeah when they say teleportation in the translations  the raw is talking about Shunshin not Hirashin.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 18, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Shunshin is just another word for teleport
> 
> 
> Why is this so hard to grasp



Not really.

Teleportation is instant and crosses space/time, like hiraishin does.  Shunshin is just high speed movement.  When it's translated as "teleport," in a world with mechanically different teleportation, it's misleading.

Ex.  You can hiraishin out of a sealed room.  You cannot shunshin out of a sealed room without bulldozing through a wall.

No, I didn't read any other post in the thread.


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## The World (Aug 18, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Not really.
> 
> Teleportation is instant and crosses space/time, like hiraishin does.  Shunshin is just high speed movement.  When it's translated as "teleport," in a world with mechanically different teleportation, it's misleading.
> 
> ...



You can if you're moving fast enough for your molecules to vibrate through it 

I'm glad you clarified that for all the ignoramuses doe


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## Turrin (Aug 18, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Pretty sure Rinnegan-SM Madara is slower. As a matter of fact the Rinnegan has nothing to do with
> the speed to begin with, and even Hashirama himself was not shown to be that fast either...


Actually pretty sure he is faster. Even a blind Madara showed tremendous speed:
 he can canonly only open the 6th Gate
 he can canonly only open the 6th Gate

In the first instance he is faster  than (or at least equally as fast as) SM-Naruto, who was faster than Ei's father. 
In the second instance he is equally as fast as EMS-Sasuke who was able to react to Juubito

This is before he even got his Sharingan/Rinnegan back.



> I don't call losing half of his body reaction honestly. He reacted to his as much as the ANBU reacted to obito when he killed them I suppose...


And in the moment where Juubito hit him with 1 attack, Tobirama hit Juubito with 5 attacks. 



> mmm, what do you mean his speed had decreased?


All the Edo-Tensei are not at full power. In Tobirama's case Madara directly references his speed not being what it once was:
 he can canonly only open the 6th Gate



> why would that matter even if it happened? It won't scratch A.


If Minato's Kunai Slash was dangerous for Ei; Hiraishingiri would also be dangerous for Ei.



> let's say that for the sake of the argument, i


No sake of argument, it's fact Hussain:

Gottheim
" C
雷影様の体内の神経伝達…反射のスピードは黄色い閃光に劣らない
Raikage-sama's nerve impulse transmission and reflexes fall nothing short of those of the Yellow Flash in speed.
こいつらよくついてきてるほうだ　
These guys are doing a pretty good job of keeping up.
しかし反射を活性化するための雷遁チャクラをまとった以上　写輪眼でも追いつけない
But once he puts on his reflex-enhancing Raiton chakra [shroud] even the Sharingan can't follow.[tn: C doesn't say "shroud", it's a personal addition.]
それにまだ…

And that's not the end of it...
It's actually pretty clear. Base Raikage is as fast as Minato (presumably Minato was a notorious speedster, even without that Hiraishin thing), but the Raiton Shroud gives him disgustingly superhuman speed to top even that.

ShounenSuki, "I won't. I agree with Gottheim's interpretation."



> it's still won't make it any better for Tobirama's case.
> and reflexes are important to attack, otherwise he will just get counterattacked no matter how much faster he it...


Reflexes relies on you actually perceiving an attack coming and reacting to it. Ei is not a sensor or have any tracking abilities outside of his eyes. So the moment an attack is coming from outside Ei's LOS, his reflexes don't matter. This is the same reason why Minato blitz'd him despite Ei's reflexes being drastically superior to Minato's; Minato attacked outside of his LOS.



> Minato's Kunai is different and heavier.


 I would love to see the proof of Minato's Kunai being heavier than Tobirama's Katana



> we saw Minato's feat of cutting B's tail.


So basically what your saying if someone's striking power is high enough they can damage Ei through Raiton no Yoroi. Well Tobirama has a better strength feat than Minato.



> In addition, from their off-panel fights, we just have to assume that Minato used different things like for example the sealing jutsus since A talked about them, and those
> kinda of stuff.


When did Ei talk about that? And if were going to speculate on unseen Jutsu (or Jutsu application); Tobirama also is clearly a Fuuinjutsu expert and he could potentially turn Ei into fodder for Edo-Tensei, by warping him into the seal formula. There is also no reason he couldn't use Tandem Explosive Tags w/o Edo-Tensei ether.



> We don't know how much damage would that attack do to him had it landed..


Say it's just a wound like the one Sasuke's Chidori gave him. Eventually that's going to add up to Ei dying.


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## SharinganKisame (Aug 18, 2014)

in terms of speed(including ftg) I'd say that the order goes like this: Minato, Tobirama, Ay , Hashirama/Gai/Madara and I'm obviously not including any god tier. Now the thing is that FTG is *INSTANTANEOUS!!* it doens't matter if minato is better at using hiraishin or not than tobi.. if you're an FTG user you are instantly in the god speed tier. 
So, FTG users > Raikages. (in speed indeed)
Now some people say that a kunai slash or a katana slash from tobi won't be enough to beat Ay and they're right. But I believe that multiple hiraishingiri would kill him, RnY or not. Chidori did little damage to Ay only because his raiton armor negated the raiton effect of chidori, so basically it was just sasuke trying to pierce him with a normal hand.. 
Since ET is restricted in this matchup, the other offensive jutsu tobirama has would be suiton suidanha but I doubt he would be able to hit Ay, especially in his V2 form. 
So Tobirama assures his victory by making 3 or 4 KB then proceeds to hiraishingiri the shit out of Unruly Ay. Is it so hard to believe that Tobirama Senju, the fastest shinobi of his era, Hashirama's brother, hiruzen's teacher, and konoha's second Hokage would lose to someone slower than him?? btw i'm not a Raikage hater he's an extremely strong shinobi, but he's not above Tobirama.


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