# (Excluding Naruto) - Is Tsunade the Strongest Now?



## toshtao (Sep 10, 2014)

Guy has no more power. Kakashi lost his Sharingan. Is Tsunade the strongest in her village now?


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## Hachibi (Sep 10, 2014)

Sasuke


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## Euraj (Sep 10, 2014)

Sasuke should be considered since he declares himself a Konoha affiliate now. Also, there's Sakura who's apparently so damn fast all of the sudden that not even someone with the Byakugan, Rin'negan, Sharingan, and Senjutsu can react to her...


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## Empathy (Sep 10, 2014)

Sakura should have surpassed her, from an authoritative stand-point.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 10, 2014)

yea she is. excluding naruto and sasuke


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## Veo (Sep 10, 2014)

I still can't consider Sakura stronger than Tsunade. While the first has had some feats during the war that have boosted her status in regards of a power ranking, Tsunade is still more experienced and "solid fighter".


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## Arles Celes (Sep 10, 2014)

Sakura is arguably stronger.

And Sasuke obviously.

As for Guy he may still return to full strength and be able to use Gates. Maybe.

All the kages are generally monsters when compared to normal people. Rikudous and Rikudou wannabees are on a god level which no simple mortal can approach.


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## PopoTime (Sep 10, 2014)

Sakura's the strongest, not including naruto and sasuke


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## toshtao (Sep 10, 2014)

PopoTime said:


> Sakura's the strongest, not including naruto and sasuke



Tsunade has more chakra and durability though...


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## StickaStick (Sep 10, 2014)

If you had any doubts on who you might want to read the most recent chapter


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 10, 2014)

Yes, she is clearly the strongest. 

Sakura will surpass her in the matter of a couple years- Shizune confirmed her genius and Hashirama directly compared her to Tsunade. Choji may once she ages considerably, the author gave us the indication that Lee might eventually be as powerful as Gai too. Considering his feats against Madara at age 16, that's not unlikely.

Next generation possibilities are Konohamaru and Asuma's son. Though, surpassing Tsunade is obviously an extremely difficult task considering she is the most knowledgeable and talented Medical Ninja artist in the manga. 

Even Sakura surpassing her is not exactly Sakura's feat, but Tsunade's. She created and mastered chakra enhanced strength, along with the Byakugo seal. Sakura is simply a marginally talented ninja with granted direct instruction from the creator of the techniques she's using, at a very young age. Very few people get 1-on-1 instruction from a Hokage, let alone the person who created and developed the techniques she's training to use. The only other person to be granted such an opportunity was Tsunade's teacher, Hiruzen (taught by Tobirama and Hashirama), and he wasn't exactly a genius with Medical Ninjutsu- which means Tsunade was born with a rare talent. 

All that being said, Sakura will still surpass her because Tsunade has been training her to do such. It's like she's trying to understand a book, but with instruction from the fucking author of said book (Tsunade).


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## SSMG (Sep 10, 2014)

Guy lee sasuke and sakura can all kick her ass.


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## Mercurial (Sep 10, 2014)

Sharingan-less Kakashi still kicks her and other asses. Smarter than everyone, faster, Raiton top notch mastery + high level Suiton and Doton, 1000 jutsu pool with Raiton Kage Bunshin hax etc


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## Bonly (Sep 10, 2014)

No because Sasuke is still around. Otherwise it would be Gai, he was saved by Naruto and nothing was said about him not being able to use the gate when he's fully recovered so yeah


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## Legendary Itachi (Sep 10, 2014)

1010 with Rikudo tools > Disabled Gai, Tsunade and Sakura.


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## JuicyG (Sep 10, 2014)

It doesnt matter, she still isnt the strongest. Why didnt you ask if she was the 2nd strongest or not ?

Oro and sasuke may come back...kabuto


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 10, 2014)

Not while Ino yet draws breath.


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## Thunder (Sep 10, 2014)

Tsunade made a comeback. The Narutoverse has a new queen.


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## Veracity (Sep 10, 2014)

Tsuande| Gai
Sakura 
Kakashi| Lee| Choji
Rest of Konoha rookies and Jounin.

No I don't consider Sasuke still part of the leaf.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 10, 2014)

Gai only becomes top tier when he commits suicide in the process. He can only go eight gates once and then he dies, does that really warrant him as a stronger shinobi than Tsunade, Kakashi etc. ?

Sasuke isn't part of Konoha since he's a rogue ninja, so besides Naruto the only one that's possibly (and probably) stronger than Tsunade right now is Sakura.​​


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## Pocalypse (Sep 10, 2014)

No she ain't the strongest, Gai would annihilate her with the flick of his wrist.


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## Jad (Sep 10, 2014)

If you are gonna make the conclusion Gai is disabled from just a glance, you might as well do the same with Tsunade. Tsunade's jutsu takes away from her life, and the last time we saw her true self, she looked like Chiyo. So she may be at her limit in using the jutsu ever again because her true self maybe biologically 100+ years old. So Tsunade's fate of being a ninja is up in the air, which is a good seegway for her to step down as Hokage.


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## RBL (Sep 10, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Gai only becomes top tier when he commits suicide in the process. He can only go eight gates once and then he dies, does that really warrant him as a stronger shinobi than Tsunade, Kakashi etc. ?
> 
> Sasuke isn't part of Konoha since he's a rogue ninja, so besides Naruto the only one that's possibly (and probably) stronger than Tsunade right now is Sakura.​​



gai doesn't need the eight gates in order to defeat tsunade.


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## toshtao (Sep 10, 2014)

Brandon Lee said:


> gai doesn't need the eight gates in order to defeat tsunade.



Isn't Tsunade unmatched in hand to hand combat? Didn't someone say that in the story?


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## Jad (Sep 10, 2014)

toshtao said:


> Isn't Tsunade unmatched in hand to hand combat? Didn't someone say that in the story?



Put it this way. If Gai knows the difference in lethality between his Evening Elephant (Punch) and Night Gai (Kick) without accessing the 8th Gate. It means he knows a _crapton_ about Martial Arts, and when a deadly punch is being thrown, and when a weak kick is being thrown (vice a versa). Also, Databook says Gai specializes in 'All Taijutsu'. Beyond that, the Databook also mentions Gai is the best Martial Artist in the Konoha village. Beyond that, his design idea is pretty much off of Bruce Lee. Hell, his student is also regarded a 'Master of Taijutsu'. His student! 

Kisame even stated it was very rare for someone like Gai to have such Taijutsu fighting power in the _Naruto universe_. It goes on and on about how great Gai is at close quarters Taijutsu fighting. Tsunade praise starts and ends with the level of strength she can output in her punches and kicks. Always, when it comes to close quarters fighting, Gai is the champion in that field and really no one (excluding freebie power-up Naruto, Sasuke and Kakashi) can go toe-to-toe with him in that area. His speed, strength, even durability, resiliency, knowledge, reflexes, intuitiveness, and most of all, Taijutsu skills and techniques, are just too much for people to go hands in Taijutsu with Gai.

Seriously, when you can push back Madara as the Juubi-Jinchuuriki in the 7th Gate for a short amount of time, whereas others like Minato and Tobirama have failed almost immediately, is an amazing feat that should not be pushed aside. To me, that is clearly portrayal on Kishimoto's part to show once again, Gai's Taijutsu, even in the face of monsters, is nothing short of amazing. Hence, Gaara's and even Minato's reactions.



> 7th Gated Gai that was able to push Juubidara back, notice the impact blows and Madara unable to stop Gai's advance [1], even after being insulted in his eyes by being underestimated [2]. Note this is the same guy who took none of Minato's _shit_ and cut his arm in one swipe without hardly moving [3]. This is the same Juubidara that is so massively more overpowered than the half-assed transformed Obito that indirectly and nonchalantly shattered Sasuke's ribcage Sasuno when he went in to grab him [4].


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## Monna (Sep 10, 2014)

Sakura is still only a chuunin level who can punch good. She's lower on the foodchain than Kiba.


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## OG Appachai (Sep 10, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Gai only becomes top tier when he commits suicide in the process. He can only go eight gates once and then he dies, does that really warrant him as a stronger shinobi than Tsunade, Kakashi etc. ?
> 
> Sasuke isn't part of Konoha since he's a rogue ninja, so besides Naruto the only one that's possibly (and probably) stronger than Tsunade right now is Sakura.​​


isnt Tsunade slowly killing herself every time her jutsu is activated? Isnt her true form that of a old lady that looks 70+ despite her being in her mid fifties?

7th gated gate shits on tsunade that is fact, 7 gated guy pushed back jjmadara, tsunade got shat on by a playful EMS Madara even when she had back up from other kage, that alone says hows far above her he is.


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## ueharakk (Sep 10, 2014)

I guess she is?


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 10, 2014)

Kakashi and Gai>Tsunade. Gai will recover most likely and Kakashi has shown that his stamina is no longer an issue and so even without the Sharingan he still retains all his Jutsu that he physically learned over the years except for Sharingan-related Jutsu.


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## Veracity (Sep 10, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Kakashi and Gai>Tsunade. Gai will recover most likely and Kakashi has shown that his stamina is no longer an issue and so even without the Sharingan he still retains all his Jutsu that he physically learned over the years except for Sharingan-related Jutsu.



I can see Gai but Base Kakashi is never beating Tsunade . He hardly has the arsenal to defeat Katsuyu .


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## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Base Kakashi vs Tsunade is a good matchup, lol don't act like he has zero chance.


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## Veracity (Sep 10, 2014)

He basically has zero chance. It's not a good match up at all. Only a couple of people would vouch for Kakashi and Tsuande is more underrated then he is on these forums. That's how you know it'd be a stomp.


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## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Tsunade cannot stomp Kakashi. Unless it's gaiden kakashi or no sharingan kakashi.


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## ueharakk (Sep 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Tsunade cannot stomp Kakashi. Unless it's gaiden kakashi or no sharingan kakashi.



didnʻt kakashi lose his sharingans?


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## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Idk but when I see Base Kakashi I think him in his best form.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 10, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Tsunade made a comeback. The Narutoverse has a new queen.



Tsunade winning a competition by outlasting opponents is not a new thing for her.


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## OG Appachai (Sep 11, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tsunade winning a competition by outlasting opponents is not a new thing for her.


Yea getting your ass kicked until your opponent gets tired is a really good strategy.


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## Veracity (Sep 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Idk but when I see Base Kakashi I think him in his best form.



I'm talking about no Sharingan Kakashi which is the Kakashi in this thread is it not ? Base Sharingan vs Tsuande would be a pretty good fight I agree. But Kakashi won't out Sharingan gets absolutely raped.


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## Rocky (Sep 11, 2014)

Kakashi without the Sharingan caps at like, Hidan.


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## Dr. White (Sep 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'm talking about no Sharingan Kakashi which is the Kakashi in this thread is it not ? Base Sharingan vs Tsuande would be a pretty good fight I agree. But Kakashi won't out Sharingan gets absolutely raped.



Yeah lol I wasn't thinking, I just saw Base Kakashi gets raped and was put off.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 11, 2014)

Besides the protagonists, I think only the previous Hokages at their peak and Itachi were stronger than the Sannin overall, and they're all dead now.

So Tsunade's the most powerful in the village currently, yes.

I don't think Sakura's going to surpass her unless she diversifies her skill set to make up for the physicality gap first.


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## Rocky (Sep 11, 2014)

I would consider Obito and Madara at their peak to be stronger than the Sannin as well.

Collectively.


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## ueharakk (Sep 11, 2014)

Nagato, Kabuto, Kakashi, Gai, Bee...

unless you were only talking about people of the leaf village, but still the masters at their peak > sannin.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I would consider Obito and Madara at their peak to be stronger than the Sannin as well.
> 
> Collectively.



Madara was around before Konoha and left near the beginning; Obito left Konoha before reaching his peak and he never came back after it.

They don't count.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 11, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> Yea getting your ass kicked until your opponent gets tired is a really good strategy.



It let Madara defeat 8th gate Guy.  

It also worked for Gaara vs 4 gated Lee.  

In fact, I think that strategy is the bane of gates users.   

Might have to bring up Tsunade doing something similar in the next Tsunade vs Guy thread.  Should turn some heads.


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## Jad (Sep 11, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It let Madara defeat 8th gate Guy.
> 
> It also worked for Gaara vs 4 gated Lee.
> 
> ...



That makes your argument look bad, because while Lee and Gai didn't win those fights, they made their opponents look really disadvantaged and very scared for their well being/life. Plus people are going realise those opponents were none other than final bosses for their respective arcs that were always going to be left for the main protagonists to defeat. Which in terms of portayl shows that the gates stand up to the greatest and strongest of foes in the manga at different points in the story, in some instances shown to be tearing apart even final arc bosses. In the case of your point, it will just lead back to *the tired old Tsunade's durability (body toughness) vs. Gai's non-stop assault*.


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## The World (Sep 11, 2014)

With Gai crippled only Lee can contend with her now

Sakura has yet to fully surpass her


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 11, 2014)

Man, what has Konoha come down to.

Tsunade is the strongest in the village


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi without the Sharingan caps at like, Hidan.



Not at all. Base Kakashi still has offensive firepower over Hidan, speed, skill, intelligence, etc.

Base Kakashi is still lethal because he has a few major things going for him. 

1: Silent Killing. In an area with lots of buildings or obstacles to break line of sight, Kakashi jumps up considerably in threat level. You would need to be a literal sensor or have a Dojutsu to sense him.

2: Raiton Clones. Raiton clones give one of the best opening to a surprise attack. Whether it be from the ground below or a simple Shunshin Raikiri attack.

3: Stamina is no longer an issue for him. He used Kamui six times among other Jutsu before he felt any real fatigue. Base Kakashi has literally nothing to worry about. 

Besides that, Kakashi has strong Suiton, solid Doton and of course his Raiton to be able to counter Katon, Suiton and Doton and be able to match Raiton. Fuuton is the only base element that Kakashi theoretically doesn't match up well against. And even then, his Doton wall can probably stop most mid-level Fuuton anyway. 

He still has strong Taijutsu. He doesn't have precog anymore, but he has the experience of copying many Taijutsu styles in Konoha, including the strong fist.


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## -JT- (Sep 11, 2014)

Yes she is.

Sakura is not stronger than Tsunade  In pure striking power, yes, but in everything else, no.

As Godaime Tsunade said, Guy is potentially a lot stronger that Tsunade, but kills himself when he reaches this potential. Tsunade also has a more varied skillset. 
Hiashi potentially comes in third place.


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## Rocky (Sep 11, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Not at all. Base Kakashi still has offensive firepower over Hidan, speed, skill, intelligence, etc.
> 
> Base Kakashi is still lethal because he has a few major things going for him.
> 
> ...



There really aren't many (if any) people stronger than  Hidan that Kakashi can defeat .


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## PopoTime (Sep 11, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes, she is clearly the strongest.
> 
> Yes, she's the strongest.
> 
> ...



You're being horribly unfair to Sakura here.

Shizune stated that achieving Byakugou required "The pinnacle of chakra control" and not even she herself could achieve it.

Hashirama stated that Sakura's strength " Might be worse than Tsuna's"

Regarding Sakura's feat not being hers, thats like saying Gai mastering the 8th gate isnt his feat, because his Dad taught him how to do it.

Surpassing your master doesnt take anything away from the Student at all


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## DavyChan (Sep 11, 2014)

OKay. Let's look at this from a non-bias standpoint shall we.

Naruto has passed jaraiay from QUITE some time now.
Sasuke has passed Orochimaru & Itachi for QUITE some time now.

Sakura should have passed Tsunade by now. I mean i get why some people think she isn't tht strong because she isn't doing all this crazy jutsu sht. But people look, she does exactly what Tsunade does and she is shown to do it just as well. So it's makign it obious they are at least on par. And just like naruto & sasuke have gotten a lot stronger during this arc i think Sakura has too. I think that Sakura was a littke under Tsunade about when she said that she had caught up to naruto  & sasuke when she first revealed yin seal. But the thing is, she activated byakugo for the first time and excelled at it in a way im sure tsuande didnt when she first got it. She was shown to be faster than tsunade (i mean how she chased the juubi is evidence enough) and her chakra control is more on point. i think that Sakura should be a good bit stronger than Tsunade now. I mean if she isn't than it would be quite insane. I look at it as compare naruto & sasuke part ii and sakura part ii. She was a good ways away from them (maybe 1/5 of their strength. I think the same should apply and since naruto & sasuke are on this god tier then sakura should be above tsunade (which would still make tht percentage about equal). Sakura needs to be able to survive on a mission with them and be able to do little things. Someone below tsunade level would get krushed just looking at kaguya.


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## LostSelf (Sep 11, 2014)

Who says Gai has no more power? Unlike the others, Gai has his own power. He doesn't lose it unless he dies. And chances are that he is healed. On top of that, even banning the eight gate, Tsunade is not more powerful than 7th gates Gai. Being a bad matchup (bad matchup that he can defeat) doesn't make her superior. She might at best be in his same league or who knows, even below. Just like Kisame is below Killer Bee.

So... No, she isn't.

Excluding Naruto, Sasuke should be the strongest here. Followed by Gai. If Sasuke lost his Rikudo powers then Gai is the strongest there by a large margin.


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## Jaired Kasai (Sep 11, 2014)

Physically? Guy is. And it was never confirmed kakashi lost his sharingan, it's possible he can deactivate it now.  As far as battle wise, sasuke is 2nd strongest. And i'd arguably say he's still better than tsunade even without his  Sage powers


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## Jaired Kasai (Sep 11, 2014)

dpwater25 said:


> OKay. Let's look at this from a non-bias standpoint shall we.
> 
> Naruto has passed jaraiay from QUITE some time now.
> Sasuke has passed Orochimaru & Itachi for QUITE some time now.
> ...



Sakura in no version is stronger than tsunade. It's said she'll possibly someday surpass her but he hasn't demonstrated anything that would give her a win over  Tsunade.


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## SSMG (Sep 11, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Who says Gai has no more power? Unlike the others, Gai has his own power. He doesn't lose it unless he dies. And chances are that he is healed. On top of that, even banning the eight gate, Tsunade is not more powerful than 7th gates Gai. Being a bad matchup (bad matchup that he can defeat) doesn't make her superior. She might at best be in his same league or who knows, even below. Just like Kisame is below Killer Bee.
> 
> So... No, she isn't.
> 
> Excluding Naruto, Sasuke should be the strongest here. Followed by Gai. If Sasuke lost his Rikudo powers then Gai is the strongest there by a large margin.



I agree prime guy shits on tsunade but guys foot got disintergrated after his eighth gate usage.. chance are hell never fight again.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 11, 2014)

Sakura is the strongest besides Naruto


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## Jaired Kasai (Sep 11, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Sakura is the strongest besides Naruto



I hope to god your trolling. 

Raikage, tsunade, and guy all outclass her.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 11, 2014)

Jaired Kasai said:


> And it was never confirmed kakashi lost his sharingan, it's possible he can deactivate it now.



He said "It looks like Kakashi of the Sharingan ends today".

What do you take that to mean if it isn't a confirmation that he lost his Sharingan?



> As far as battle wise, sasuke is 2nd strongest. And i'd arguably say he's still better than tsunade even without his  Sage powers



Does he even count as part of the village nowadays?


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## PopoTime (Sep 11, 2014)

Jaired Kasai said:


> Sakura in no version is stronger than tsunade. It's said she'll possibly someday surpass her but he hasn't demonstrated anything that would give her a win over  Tsunade.




1 confirmed, 1 debatable speed feat tiers above Tsunade's.

Combine that with a Torsobuster punch and Sakura's got more than enough to put Tsunade away.


It wont be a stomp though, Tsunade does have more combat experience


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## HoseNTricks (Sep 11, 2014)

Guy will return to full health.

Also Lee >>> Tsunade


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 11, 2014)

Guy is only stronger than tsunade if he heals back to full health. Sakura is definitely not stronger


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 12, 2014)

Jad said:


> If you are gonna make the conclusion Gai is disabled from just a glance, you might as well do the same with Tsunade. Tsunade's jutsu takes away from her life, and the last time we saw her true self, she looked like Chiyo. So she may be at her limit in using the jutsu ever again because her true self maybe biologically 100+ years old. So Tsunade's fate of being a ninja is up in the air, which is a good seegway for her to step down as Hokage.





OG Appachai said:


> isnt Tsunade slowly killing herself every time her jutsu is activated? Isnt her true form that of a old lady that looks 70+ despite her being in her mid fifties?



So what? Tsunade's massive life force allows her to spam Byakugou without any repercussions until the stored chakra runs out. She has the potential to, and has before, stored several years worth of chakra inside her seal, which as Sakura proved is like bijuu++ levels. She will rarely kill herself using Byakugou during a battle because it's not likely that she'll run out of chakra, hence her confidence when she said " I can't be killed in battle ". Gai on the other hand will 100% die when he uses the eighth gate.

Jad, you have a point in saying that Tsunade is an old bat now, but she looked just as old during the Pein arc and Sannin arcs respectively, yet she could still use the regeneration. Even if her ability to use Byakugou was gone now, there's still the point that in the past she could spam regeneration without repercussions, while Gai could never do that with the eighth gate.



> 7th gated gate shits on tsunade that is fact, 7 gated guy pushed back jjmadara, tsunade got shat on by a playful EMS Madara even when she had back up from other kage, that alone says hows far above her he is.



Stop exaggerating. The Madara that Seven Gated Gai " pushed back " stood and allowed him to do so, despite the fact that he could use Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei etc. he didn't attempt attacking at all whatsoever until Gai tried to use Hirudora, which failed epicly and exploded in his face, breaking several of his bones. The Madara Tsunade fought was definitely weaker than the one Gai fought, but he was at least using Susano'o, katon, Magatama etc. to defend himself from her attacks.

I don't want to get too concerned with battle specifics since this isn't the battledome but, Tsunade has a slug which can protect her from city busting techniques (Chou Shinra Tensei), high durability (which allowed her to survive Mabui's teleportation without being torn to shreds) and incredibly fast and potent cellular regeneration - Seven Gated Gai's attacks are not going to kill her. 



Thunder said:


> Tsunade made a comeback. The Narutoverse has a new queen.


​​


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## Santoryu (Sep 12, 2014)

No. Even Sakura is stronger than her.

If Kakashi still has the old man's power chakra/energy he's unequivocally superior too considering his arsenal. And even if he doesn't, he'll adapt and improve. He's Kakashi.

As for the Gai matter. It was made pretty darn clear that Gai is not only superior to Tsunade, but any of the Gokage for that matter. Gaara noted that his movements were not "human". Gai held his own against multiple Version 2 Jinjuriki. And what's this about the final gate not being taken into account because it's a "suicide move"; pre dual MS Kakashi implied that Gai was stronger than him after witnessing Gai's final-gate. That's the author's way of saying that we should take the final gate into consideration when evaluating Gai's overall-power. Of course I'm talking about Gai before he got smashed.


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## JuicyG (Sep 12, 2014)

Lmao Are you kidding me right now ? The Fan Tards around here will ignore ALL evidence if it means that their favorite character is not the loser of any battle.

Godaime Tsuande will debate until she dies that Tsunade > Nardo Verse. Thats why I dislike even commenting in certain threads she's in, or those of similar taste with other characters. 

Gai is CLEARLY above Tsuande once he gets to the 7th Gate and above. That much is obvious even to me 3 year old sister. And anyone who believes Tsuande > Gai, please go to the psych ward now because were done with that nonsense


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## OG Appachai (Sep 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Stop exaggerating. The Madara that Seven Gated Gai " pushed back " stood and allowed him to do so, despite the fact that he could use Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei etc. he didn't attempt attacking at all whatsoever until Gai tried to use Hirudora, which failed epicly and exploded in his face, breaking several of his bones. The Madara Tsunade fought was definitely weaker than the one Gai fought, but he was at least using Susano'o, katon, Magatama etc. to defend himself from her attacks.



Allowed him do to so? Madara actually saw fit to back up as fast as he can and block with his hands when he just took care of SM Minato low dificulty. That right there proves how fast Gai's movements were, try to understand that madara probably didnt even have them time to perform these techniques until Gai paused in his combo to perform AT.

im not even gonna go into detail about anything else, these panels were discussing have been analyzed and debated about since them moment they were released and the feats have been proven and yet you deny them because you dont want to admit that Gai is superior?



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't want to get too concerned with battle specifics since this isn't the battledome but, Tsunade has a slug which can protect her from city busting techniques (Chou Shinra Tensei), high durability (which allowed her to survive Mabui's teleportation without being torn to shreds) and incredibly fast and potent cellular regeneration - Seven Gated Gai's attacks are not going to kill her.



"i dont want too get concerned with battle specifics" but you go into battle specifics anyway...

Its always funny that people say katsuyu tanked shinra tensei when in actuality she just survived against falling debris, and the Anbu ninja next to them survived without aid.

I'd take Bijuu mataching Morning Peacock and sussano busting hirudora are more than enough to take her out. But i dont wanna go into battle specifics though.


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## Veracity (Sep 12, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> No. Even Sakura is stronger than her.
> 
> If Kakashi still has the old man's power chakra/energy he's unequivocally superior too considering his arsenal. And even if he doesn't, he'll adapt and improve. He's Kakashi.
> 
> As for the Gai matter. It was made pretty darn clear that Gai is not only superior to Tsunade, but any of the Gokage for that matter. Gaara noted that his movements were not "human". Gai held his own against multiple Version 2 Jinjuriki. And what's this about the final gate not being taken into account because it's a "suicide move"; pre dual MS Kakashi implied that Gai was stronger than him after witnessing Gai's final-gate. That's the author's way of saying that we should take the final gate into consideration when evaluating Gai's overall-power. Of course I'm talking about Gai before he got smashed.



I'm not saying that Gai isn't superior to Tsuande( it's close btw) but those examples aren't really good at all. Eveyone in the Gokage bar Mei can compete with V2 Jin. Onnoki would absolutely obliterate a hoarde of them and Tsuande can severely injure several, while Ay zips around and avoids being hit while landing attacks.

Gaara also took the same approach against PTS Lee but we all know that PTS Gaara > PTS Lee so I don't see how that's any good hype.

If your gonna use feats then use his pressuring of Juubi Madara, or the debatable feat of busting Sussano or his skilled taijustu against Obito . Any other feat is something Tsuande handles casually.


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## LostSelf (Sep 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not saying that Gai isn't superior to Tsuande( it's close btw) but those examples aren't really good at all. Eveyone in the Gokage bar Mei can compete with V2 Jin. Onnoki would absolutely obliterate a hoarde of them and Tsuande can severely injure several, while Ay zips around and avoids being hit while landing attacks.



Those Jins were giving KCM Naruto and Bee troubles. In fact, Gai was keeping up with the same enemies that were giving KCM Naruto troubles. The Jins in any versions sans the full bijuu and Rinnegan Obito.



> If your gonna use feats then use his pressuring of Juubi Madara, or the debatable feat of busting Sussano or his skilled taijustu against Obito . Any other feat is something Tsuande handles casually.



Beating Kisame with said difficulty and in his turf, plus looking for the scroll is not something she can handle, at least, not that easy. But that depends on character match-ups.

Aside from that (Not directed to anybody now), i find quite bad that people say Madara stood there when Gai attacked. First of all, his face expression is something that says otherwise, and second to that, Juudara was not toying around, and that was clear when he destroyed Tobirama, Sasuke and Minato, and third he let Tsunade hit him all over the fight. So it is not like Tsunade did any better. On the other hand, she did way worse, because at least Madara did something to Gai, while Edo Madara just used Susanoo against her sans the part where he blew her off his face without moving an inch.

Bad example is seriously bad.


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## Veracity (Sep 12, 2014)

Naruto without using chakra enhanced shunshin and being exhausted isn't really that fast. I'm pretty sure the Gokage can handle that speed pretty fine.

Tsunade can handle that Kisame without His sword I'm positive it. His feats against Kisame weren't that great. He dispelled 1000 sharks with fireballs then used a taijustu technique that Kisame thought was a Ninjutsu technique to overpower a technique that relies on chakra absorption. And then barely injured him at all.


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## DavyChan (Sep 12, 2014)

I mean Gai IS a lot sronger than Tsunade/Sakura. My thing is Gai should BE DEAD. Because thats the rule when u use 8 gates.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Stupid ass Kishimoto


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## FlamingRain (Sep 12, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Those Jins were giving KCM Naruto and Bee troubles. In fact, Gai was keeping up with the same enemies that were giving KCM Naruto troubles. The Jins in any versions sans the full bijuu and Rinnegan Obito.



That doesn't suddenly place his performance outside of the realm of what the Five Kage are capable of.

They gave Naruto and Bee troubles through indirect means- i.e.- a drive by from one followed by blindsiding from two others, unexpected alkaline fluid excretion after being grabbed, lava plumes from below while Bee is in his hulking Tailed Beast form, etc. Those are means they never used against Kakashi or Gai.

Just as an example, Gai can't strike Utakata and get away with it as his hand or foot is going to burn up. Tsunade could knock Utakata into the next area code with one of her casual strikes and then just Shosen up afterwards while Ay's shroud likely keeps him from making direct contact with the substance. 



> Beating Kisame with said difficulty and in his turf, plus looking for the scroll is not something she can handle, at least, not that easy.



Except Gai _lost_ the scroll.

Apparently he can't handle it either.



> But that depends on character match-ups.



As does the Jinchūriki skirmish.



> First of all, his face expression is something that says otherwise.



His facial expression says otherwise because he wasn't expecting much of the 7th Gate, which is why he made the comment that only someone using Red Steam could face him. Gai eclipsed Madara's initial estimation of what was about to happen. His expression is a reflection of his surprise, not worry.

He _knew_ that Senjutsu could harm him, though, hence his exchange with Minato going down so differently, and he wasn't a Ten Tails Jinchūriki when Tobirama attacked him.



> He let Tsunade hit him all over the fight.



No he didn't. He tried guarding with Susano'o and she broke it, then she caught up to him off panel and blasted his torso apart- in the page where her hit connects you can see surprise, because he wasn't planning on getting hit.

He specifically admitted when he _let_ Ohnoki hit him, but when Tsunade hit him and he had to resort to substituting using her grandfather's Jutsu in order to escape what was his reply? It wasn't "I just let you hit me," it was "Well there are five of you," so this idea that the Kages only accomplished what they did because Madara wanted them to is pitiful.



> At least Madara did something to Gai.



Madara acknowledged Tsunade's might after she broke through his Susano'o, and he was holding her to Senju standards if his earlier sentiments are anything to go by. That's rather telling, especially since he made the acknowledgement _before_ witnessing her ability to regenerate and _without_ seeing her summoning, two abilities that could only make her all the more powerful.

The first one alone foiled Madara's attempt to do something to her by playing sealed and impaling her once her guard was down, and she was able to capitalize on an opportunity to counterattack him because of it, only being unsuccessful because she didn't know Susano'o has no effect on Susano'o. Madara highlighted that he couldn't be hurt by his own powers.

The second one made her the only one capable of not only surviving his off-panel rampage despite being the Kage Madara vowed to kill first, but even going on to sustain the lives of each of the others.


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## LostSelf (Sep 12, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> That doesn't suddenly place his performance outside of the realm of what the Five Kage are capable of.



In their V2? Doubtful of what kages like Mei can achieve against them. 



> They gave Naruto and Bee troubles through indirect means- i.e.- a drive by from one followed by blindsiding from two others, unexpected alkaline fluid excretion after being grabbed, lava plumes from below while Bee is in his hulking Tailed Beast form, etc. Those are means they never used against Kakashi or Gai.



Off panel. They fought the bijus in V2, i expect them using better attacks and more powerful tactics unless they stood there doing nothing.



> Just as an example, Gai can't strike Utakata and get away with it as his hand or foot is going to burn up. Tsunade could knock Utakata into the next area code with one of her casual strikes and then just Shosen up afterwards while Ay's shroud likely keeps him from making direct contact with the substance.



Wich is why i said "A matter of matchups". 



> Except Gai _lost_ the scroll.
> 
> Apparently he can't handle it either.



By that logic, even Naruto cannot handle it. Nor Bee. You know i am talking about the speed of how Gai defeated Kisame, and yes, he got the scroll. Tsunade would not be able to defeat Kisame with such efficiency.



> As does the Jinchūriki skirmish.



Of course.



> His facial expression says otherwise because he wasn't expecting much of the 7th Gate, which is why he made the comment that only someone using Red Steam could face him. Gai eclipsed Madara's initial estimation of what was about to happen. His expression is a reflection of his surprise, not worry.
> 
> He _knew_ that Senjutsu could harm him, though, hence his exchange with Minato going down so differently, and he wasn't a Ten Tails Jinchūriki when Tobirama attacked him.



Ahm no. There is nothing proving that Madara just kicked Minato out of the way because he knew senjutsu could harm him. Because SM Madara was being as aggresive as Juudara was. And Sasuke did not have Senjutsu. Nor Tobirama. So i fail to see why he will take Gai lightly just because Gai.

His expression looks very worried to me. Not an expression of not being able to handle it, but that was a clear "Oh shit" face right there. And logically, Kakashi said that physical attacks can damage him, so by that way, he should have been able to take down Gai like he did to Minato. And we saw physical attacks harming Madara as well.

Madara not being a Jiin does not change his mindset. Nor i have any reason to believe he became playful.



> No he didn't. He tried guarding with Susano'o and she broke it, then she caught up to him off panel and blasted his torso apart- in the page where her hit connects you can see surprise, because he wasn't planning on getting hit.



Surorise has not much to do. You can see surprise in Juudara when Gaara lifts a wall of sand. He looked very calm about it. 



> He specifically admitted when he _let_ Ohnoki hit him, but when Tsunade hit him and he had to resort to substituting using her grandfather's Jutsu in order to escape what was his reply? It wasn't "I just let you hit me," it was "Well there are five of you," so this idea that the Kages only accomplished what they did because Madara wanted them to is pitiful.



I am not debating a Gai vs the Gokage. So please stick to Tsunade-s individual feats before calling an argument pitiful.



> Madara acknowledged Tsunade's might after she broke through his Susano'o, and he was holding her to Senju standards if his earlier sentiments are anything to go by. That's rather telling, especially since he made the acknowledgement _before_ witnessing her ability to regenerate and _without_ seeing her summoning, two abilities that could only make her all the more powerful.



 do not remember Madara praising her before finding about Byakugo. And such a praise was so big that he still kept toying with her. And you mean Katsuyu or Exodia?



> The first one alone foiled Madara's attempt to do something to her by playing sealed and impaling her once her guard was down, and she was able to capitalize on an opportunity to counterattack him because of it, only being unsuccessful because she didn't know Susano'o has no effect on Susano'o. Madara highlighted that he couldn't be hurt by his own powers.



But what good is a feat of almost hitting somebody that does not even know you are still there? Do you remember how Kaguya was hit by Sakura and Jiraiya was hit by Asura Path? Faking death and hitting an opponent that is distracted is no amazing feat. Show me Tsunade being able to hit a Madara that knows she is there and without the need of her kage fellows.



> The second one made her the only one capable of not only surviving his off-panel rampage despite being the Kage Madara vowed to kill first, but even going on to sustain the lives of each of the others.



What rampage? When Madara decided to leave searching for Naruto? When is a good feat being bisected? I mean, it is an amazing resilience feat, but nothing more. It is not like she would have survived without outside help.

Likes boss: Then you say Tsunade would have been able to destroy the thousands of sharks, Kisame, his huge giant wave and get the scroll better or equal to Gai?


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## FlamingRain (Sep 13, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> In their V2? Doubtful of what kages like Mei can achieve against them.



As much as Kakashi and Gai did on panel at the very least.



> Off panel. They fought the bijus in V2, i expect them using better attacks and more powerful tactics unless they stood there doing nothing.



Why?

That's got no more of a basis than the claim that Madara's clones where whipping out giant Mokuton tendrils, boss sized Katons, et al.

On panel the Jinchūriki gained the upper hand using just hand-to-hand(/tail), two then transforming while the others reached out with arm extensions. They went off panel for a very brief time, and when we come back to them we don't exactly see the ground busted up, melted, on fire, or covered in coral now do we? No we don't. There's no reason to assume they went back to using the abilities they did against Naruto and Bee, nor the same tactics considering they were all still standing directly in front of the two sensei.



> By that logic, even Naruto cannot handle it. Nor Bee.



No, they could not.



> He got the scroll.



Then how did Kabuto end up with it?



> Tsunade would not be able to defeat Kisame with such efficiency.



Tsunade would beat him a lot _more_ efficiently.

If we put Tsunade in Gai's situation Kisame would have been finished by that initial blindside. There would not even be a chase, so the scroll would never even go anywhere. Kisame would have just died.



> There is nothing proving that Madara just kicked Minato out of the way because he knew senjutsu could harm him.



It's still the more plausible explanation.

A Senjutsu-powered Rasengan would hurt Madara, so had he merely blocked the Rasengan like he blocked Gai's strikes he'd have probably been injured.

Taijutsu could hurt him too, but only if its actually strong enough would it, and Madara didn't think anything short of the the final gate was powerful enough for that. That is why he didn't stop Gai using the 7th gate as quickly as he did Minato, even if Gai pulled more out of the 7th gate than he initially expected him to.



> And Sasuke did not have Senjutsu. Nor Tobirama.



They didn't have to have it because they weren't attacking the Ten Tails Jinchūriki, they were just attacking normal Madara.



> His expression looks very worried to me. Not an expression of not being able to handle it, but that was a clear "Oh shit" face right there.



Worry is by definition a person dwelling on difficulties or troubles- aka their being able to handle something. So if Madara's facial expression is not one concerned with being able to handle it, then by default he was not showing worry but surprise instead.



> Madara not being a Jiin does not change his mindset. Nor i have any reason to believe he became playful.



It's just that, _by his own admission_, Madara loses grace when he fights knowing that he'll be able to recover, and as the host of the Ten Tails he can heal just like he could when he had Hashirama's ability or when he was an Edo.

You don't really think it was normal for Madara to attempt to commit suicide with meteors or get hit with Jinton for the fun of it when he was alive, do you? Even though he did exactly that when he was revived as an Edo Tensei?

No? Well then there you go then for your reason.



> You can see surprise in Juudara when Gaara lifts a wall of sand. He looked very calm about it.



That has nothing to do with anything I just said.



> I am not debating a Gai vs the Gokage. So please stick to Tsunade-s individual feats before calling an argument pitiful.



You can glean individual feats from team battles.....

I called the argument that I did pitiful because it _is_ pitiful.



> do not remember Madara praising her before finding about Byakugo.



It was right after she kicked open his ribcage Susano'o, which was before he hit her with that sneak attack that she regenerated from so that he'd notice her technique's power, and well before Katsuyu ever made an appearance.



> And such a praise was so big that he still kept toying with her.



He would have kept toying with Gai too were it not for the final gate.



> But what good is a feat of almost hitting somebody that does not even know you are still there?



Your question might have some weight to it if we were discussing speed here, but we're not. The thread is not asking if Tsunade is the fastest now, it's asking if she is the strongest now.

The ability to so convincingly play possum to create an opening using her insane resilience and then capitalize on said opening using her enormous strength is enough to put _a lot_ of people away, and as such it feeds into her general threat level.

That's what good the feat is for.



> What rampage? When Madara decided to leave searching for Naruto? When is a good feat being bisected? I mean, it is an amazing resilience feat, but nothing more. It is not like she would have survived without outside help.



Yes, the one right before that. It's a good feat in the same way the ambush feat is.

Also, I don't know where you're getting the idea that she wouldn't have survived without outside help. Tsunade didn't tell Katsuyu to sacrifice her in order to save the Five Kage, she just told her that she could wait. At the same time, Katsuyu didn't say everyone wasn't recovering because she was weakened, just that it was taking a long time because of it. All we can say would have happened without Orochimaru showing up is that the process would have taken longer; there's no reason to assume that it wouldn't have still been completed.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

Sasuke, and Sakura are stronger than her as well. Gai will destroy her, but he will die as will to do so, so it's a tie.
That's about it.


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## trance (Sep 13, 2014)

7th Gate Gai would be approximately on par with her and I wouldn't say that people who think 7th Gate Gai is stronger than her have unjustified reasons. Just my perspective of things.


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## Jad (Sep 13, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> 7th Gate Gai would be approximately on par with her and I wouldn't say that people who think 7th Gate Gai is stronger than her have unjustified reasons. Just my perspective of things.



In my opinion, technically speaking, 7th Gate is way above her fighting class. I reckon it is more appropriate (definitely not in my opinion) for you to say under your assumption, that Gai  as a whole (including Gate usage limit) is approximately on par with her. Since the 7th Gate as standalone is too much for most opponents, including Tsunade. I mean his moving at inhumane speeds, throwing city sized explosions, pushing back Juubi-Jinchurriki's, and making Sasuno-half humanoid forms look like a chew toys, plus all the other lower gated moves and base technique look even better (e.g. Morning Pecock, Nunchuku play).

As a stand-alone gate. I mean most opponents way of beating Gai in the 7th Gate is to take a defensive measure, because they usually have no way of going toe-to-toe offensively with a 7th Gated Gai. I think most people on this forum would agree, sans. Madara, Hashirama and the like. I mean Minato and Tobirama would be running away in front of a 7th Gated assault, rather being massively beaten when engaging.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> So what? Tsunade's massive life force allows her to spam Byakugou without any repercussions until the stored chakra runs out. She has the potential to, and has before, stored several years worth of chakra inside her seal, which as Sakura proved is like bijuu++ levels. She will rarely kill herself using Byakugou during a battle because it's not likely that she'll run out of chakra, hence her confidence when she said " I can't be killed in battle ". Gai on the other hand will 100% die when he uses the eighth gate.
> 
> Jad, you have a point in saying that Tsunade is an old bat now, but she looked just as old during the Pein arc and Sannin arcs respectively, yet she could still use the regeneration. Even if her ability to use Byakugou was gone now, there's still the point that in the past she could spam regeneration without repercussions, while Gai could never do that with the eighth gate.​​



I think because of our history, you mistook my post completely and immediately hit with an offensive type post. My post had nothing to do with defending Gai using the 8th Gate. My post was merely pointing out that if someone was going to blindly assume that Gai is crippled for the rest of his life, you might as well assume that Tsunade is as well, in the same vein of thought. Since Tsunade has loses her life force for every use of the Creation Rebirth (and similar ability) technique. Hence, she may not be able to use the technique again because one more use may end what life force she has left.

And I'm not here to say you are wrong by saying she can and will return to being a ninja and I was just assuming. But that was my whole point, that you can't confirm that Gai is crippled at the moment, like it isn't confirmed Tsunade can re-use the Creation Rebirth technique again. I was trying to make a point. A point about Gai is not confirmed to be crippled, like many people have already made a *fact*.

And let me just add this, Gai was burnt to a black char. However, after being blessed by Naruto's hand, he has gone back to his white skin colour. That pretty much confirms for the most part, that Naruto's touch has slowly but surely healed the effect of the Gate. So if he was able to be healed THAT MUCH, what's to stop Gai from being healed completely and return to normal? There is more proof he is going to return to normal than being crippled.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 13, 2014)

When did Gai go back to his normal skin color?


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## Jad (Sep 13, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> When did Gai go back to his normal skin color?



the Shukaku was hit


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## Raiken (Sep 13, 2014)

I'm not sure about strongest.

But the most powerful in the Village, excluding Naruto, are likely:

Byakugo Sakura. Byakugo Tsunade. Butterfly Choji. 6th Gate Lee.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 13, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Lmao Are you kidding me right now ? The Fan Tards around here will ignore ALL evidence if it means that their favorite character is not the loser of any battle.
> 
> Godaime Tsuande will debate until she dies that Tsunade > Nardo Verse. Thats why I dislike even commenting in certain threads she's in, or those of similar taste with other characters.
> 
> Gai is CLEARLY above Tsuande once he gets to the 7th Gate and above. That much is obvious even to me 3 year old sister. And anyone who believes Tsuande > Gai, please go to the psych ward now because were done with that nonsense



Your posts only seem to get worse.



OG Appachai said:


> Allowed him do to so? Madara actually saw fit to back up as fast as he can and block with his hands when he just took care of SM Minato low dificulty. That right there proves how fast Gai's movements were, try to understand that madara probably didnt even have them time to perform these techniques until Gai paused in his combo to perform AT.



_He saw Gai activating the seventh gate and did nothing_, he merely boasted of his strength and said that Gai's technique would not be able to kill him, when in reality he had time to fly into the air and drop a giant shinra tensei if he so wished.



> im not even gonna go into detail about anything else, these panels were discussing have been analyzed and debated about since them moment they were released and the feats have been proven and yet you deny them because you dont want to admit that Gai is superior?



Gai is as strong as he is in the eighth gate, I literally wrote that word for word in my original post. He just doesn't possess _superior_ combat strength in the seventh gate, and that's that. 



> "i dont want too get concerned with battle specifics" but you go into battle specifics anyway...



Which is why I said I didn't want to get " too " concerned ie. I don't want to have a giant debate over feats with you in the KL, I was merely pointing out my general stance on his potential to kill her in the seventh gate. 



> Its always funny that people say katsuyu tanked shinra tensei when in actuality she just survived against falling debris, and the Anbu ninja next to them survived without aid.



Really? I find it funny that people actually believe a fodder ANBU could survive a CST and the masses of debris falling on top of him _without_ Katsuyu shielding him off-panel. Fodder ANBU does not have that level of durability whenever Chouza and Kakashi did not. Katsuyu was scattered all around the village, including the center where Deva path aimed for with CST, so she obviously tanked it. 



Jad said:


> In my opinion, technically speaking, 7th Gate is way above her fighting class. I reckon it is more appropriate (definitely not in my opinion) for you to say under your assumption, that Gai  as a whole (including Gate usage limit) is approximately on par with her.



I'm okay with this assertion. I mean as far as tiers go Seven Gated Gai is about as strong as her in the sense that he could take on and defeat about as many different kinds of opponents as she could. They're also both about Mid Kage Tier too, and there is a small discrepancy between their general strength regardless of who you think would beat who. 



> Since the 7th Gate as standalone is too much for most opponents, including Tsunade. I mean his moving at inhumane speeds, throwing city sized explosions, pushing back Juubi-Jinchurriki's, and making Sasuno-half humanoid forms look like a chew toys, plus all the other lower gated moves and base technique look even better (e.g. Morning Pecock, Nunchuku play).
> 
> As a stand-alone gate. I mean most opponents way of beating Gai in the 7th Gate is to take a defensive measure, because they usually have no way of going toe-to-toe offensively with a 7th Gated Gai. I think most people on this forum would agree, sans. Madara, Hashirama and the like. I mean Minato and Tobirama would be running away in front of a 7th Gated assault, rather being massively beaten when engaging.



The seventh gate is by all means too much offensively for most opponents, yes, but having a great defense to protect yourself from it doesn't make you any weaker.



> I think because of our history, you mistook my post completely and immediately hit with an offensive type post. My post had nothing to do with defending Gai using the 8th Gate. My post was merely pointing out that if someone was going to blindly assume that Gai is crippled for the rest of his life, you might as well assume that Tsunade is as well, in the same vein of thought. Since Tsunade has loses her life force for every use of the Creation Rebirth (and similar ability) technique. Hence, she may not be able to use the technique again because one more use may end what life force she has left.



I've already addressed this.



> And I'm not here to say you are wrong by saying she can and will return to being a ninja and I was just assuming. But that was my whole point, that you can't confirm that Gai is crippled at the moment, like it isn't confirmed Tsunade can re-use the Creation Rebirth technique again. I was trying to make a point. A point about Gai is not confirmed to be crippled, like many people have already made a *fact*.



I wasn't even talking about _at the moment_ in my original post, but rather hypothetically. A healthy Gai using the eighth gate, without Rikudou Naruto there to heal him, is 100% going to die from the technique. Tsunade dying from regeneration is up in the air. Before the War arc she definitely  wasn't going to die from regeneration though, whereas Gai was always going to die if he used the eighth gate.​​


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## JuicyG (Sep 13, 2014)

7th Gate Gai kicks Tsunade's head off. Hows that for defense. GG neg diff ^^^^^


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## LostSelf (Sep 13, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> As much as Kakashi and Gai did on panel at the very least.



Kakashi and Gai fought against  Full Bijuus, those Madara said to have comparable power to that of Perfect Susano'o. 



> Why?
> 
> That's got no more of a basis than the claim that Madara's clones where whipping out giant Mokuton tendrils, boss sized Katons, et al.
> 
> On panel the Jinchūriki gained the upper hand using just hand-to-hand(/tail), two then transforming while the others reached out with arm extensions. They went off panel for a very brief time, and when we come back to them we don't exactly see the ground busted up, melted, on fire, or covered in coral now do we? No we don't. There's no reason to assume they went back to using the abilities they did against Naruto and Bee, nor the same tactics considering they were all still standing directly in front of the two sensei.



Madara was toying with them and all of them looked like they were only physically attacking. The Bijuus were going outright for the kill as you can see how they were planning on wipping out Gai and Kakashi of the planet. And unless you think that they upgraded to a stronger version just to use weaker attacks then i don't see what is to debate here.



> No, they could not.
> 
> Then how did Kabuto end up with it?



Because he surprised them, Gai was unable to fight and Naruto and Bee were incompetent. (fucking Bee could've transformed) Gai accomplished his mission by taking the scroll and delivering it.



> Tsunade would beat him a lot _more_ efficiently.



I don't even know what to say here.



> If we put Tsunade in Gai's situation Kisame would have been finished by that initial blindside. There would not even be a chase, so the scroll would never even go anywhere. Kisame would have just died.



Dear, i am talking about their one on one confrontation. Not against a Kisame that was barely even moving due to Samehada.



> It's still the more plausible explanation.
> 
> A Senjutsu-powered Rasengan would hurt Madara, so had he merely blocked the Rasengan like he blocked Gai's strikes he'd have probably been injured.



The only true thing here (or the thing i agree with) is him _letting_ Gai go to the seventh gate. But that doesn't say he just let Gai move as he was clearly surprised afterwards, and nothing is still convincing me about him being playful with Gai. He wasn't playful with anybody after he became serious.

And that doesn't contradict my point either way, because a much weaker version of Madara _let_ Tsunade touch him or his Susano'o when he could've just tossed her aside. Therefore the example provided above is still a horrible one.



> Taijutsu could hurt him too, but only if its actually strong enough would it, and Madara didn't think anything short of the the final gate was powerful enough for that. That is why he didn't stop Gai using the 7th gate as quickly as he did Minato, even if Gai pulled more out of the 7th gate than he initially expected him to.



Just like he knew Tobirama was nothing to him and yet he showed no mercy. Again, his surprised face says that he needed to handle it, but he didn't right away.



> They didn't have to have it because they weren't attacking the Ten Tails Jinchūriki, they were just attacking normal Madara.



This does not change his mindset at all.



> Worry is by definition a person dwelling on difficulties or troubles- aka their being able to handle something. So if Madara's facial expression is not one concerned with being able to handle it, then by default he was not showing worry but surprise instead.



You don't need to be unable to deal with something to worry. When he jumped back was because Gai got too close to him, therefore, he should've been worried, otherwise, he would've taken him out ther. 



> It's just that, _by his own admission_, Madara loses grace when he fights knowing that he'll be able to recover, and as the host of the Ten Tails he can heal just like he could when he had Hashirama's ability or when he was an Edo.



And Juudara can heal, so there is no point of him being worried by Minato.



> You don't really think it was normal for Madara to attempt to commit suicide with meteors or get hit with Jinton for the fun of it when he was alive, do you? Even though he did exactly that when he was revived as an Edo Tensei?
> 
> No? Well then there you go then for your reason.



No, i don't think it's normal that just because he was playful against the kages he considered ants that he would be serious against Sasuke, Tobirama, Minato, Gaara, Bee and not with Gai. Especially after being outright surprised. 



> That has nothing to do with anything I just said.



Claiming a feat because he was surprised is not an amazing feat. The "!" indicator does not mean he was pressured.



> You can glean individual feats from team battles.....



What was Tsunade's individual feat there? Hitting a Madara that was cornered with the help of the other kages in a situation he allowed himself to be put in? If this is your argment to match Gai's _individual_ feats, then you should think better about what is pitiful.



> I called the argument that I did pitiful because it _is_ pitiful.



I should resist the urge to stop replying here. I think that i can consider a feat if me, with Brock Lesnar, hit Mayweather in the face when Lesnar has him dominated. I mean, i would be a fucking badass and better than those who couldn't touch him in a fight by themselves.



> It was right after she kicked open his ribcage Susano'o



Oh, you mean the situation Madara allowed himself to be put in when he saw her running towards him and did nothing when he could've just taken her out or shoot a Katon against her? That situation where if not for Mei, Tsunade would've been outright burned and pushed back, ending in a no kick to Susano'o situation? Yeah, nice individual feat.



> , which was before he hit her with that sneak attack that she regenerated from so that he'd notice her technique's power, and well before Katsuyu ever made an appearance.



Hitting someone that thinks you are dead is not a powerful feat. I can fake death and kill a professional MMA fighter if they really think i am dead and get distracted, higher are the chances if they are not even taking things seriously.

Jiraiya with Fukusaku and Shima were taken out mostly by Asura Path because they thought Pain was dead. But i bet that doesn't mean Asura Path is a monster to Jiraiya. Sneak attacks are just that, sneak attacks. This doesn't give her more credibility as a fighter. It gives credibility to her resilience.




> He would have kept toying with Gai too were it not for the final gate.



Completely agree. But you are missing the whole point of this. My point is that Madara "letting" Gai move towards him being used as an argument to put him below Tsunade when Tsunade got the same treatment. Thus is a bad example. Because not only this happened against two completely different Madara's, but Edo Madara toying with five kages harms her way more than Juubi Jin Madara toying with Gai in a one on one.



> Your question might have some weight to it if we were discussing speed here, but we're not. The thread is not asking if Tsunade is the fastest now, it's asking if she is the strongest now.



Ahm, no. You quoted my post about saying why GT's example is bad using feats that Tsunade accomplished helped by Shinobis of her same caliber. I've never debated about who is the fastest or anything like that. You didn't quote the post that said she was not the strongest, because she is at best, at the same level of Gai in the 7th gates and several tiers below the eight.



> The ability to so convincingly play possum to create an opening using her insane resilience and then capitalize on said opening using her enormous strength is enough to put _a lot_ of people away, and as such it feeds into her general threat level.
> 
> That's what good the feat is for.



That's what good a feat is for if the opponent is cocky and in a determined situation, AND if she survives the blast. Good luck playing dead with Jinton, for example. And if the opponent doesn't get knowledge before hand, etc. Doesn't change a thing but only fucks her a bit more. Because not even with surprise attacks she could scratch a playful Mads. So again, and i bold that part to avoid misconceptions, *damages the example of Gai being below her just because Madara let him attack.*



> Yes, the one right before that. It's a good feat in the same way the ambush feat is.



I see nothing impressed by being bisected by a single opponent that probably never went all out.



> Also, I don't know where you're getting the idea that she wouldn't have survived without outside help. Tsunade didn't tell Katsuyu to sacrifice her in order to save the Five Kage, she just told her that she could wait. At the same time, Katsuyu didn't say everyone wasn't recovering because she was weakened, just that it was taking a long time because of it. All we can say would have happened without Orochimaru showing up is that the process would have taken longer; there's no reason to assume that it wouldn't have still been completed.



Tsunade would've been an old weakened woman if not for Karin. We don't know how much she would've lasted that way.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> Kakashi and Gai fought against Full Bijuus, those Madara said to have comparable power to that of Perfect Susano'o.



they really did nothing against them.


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## LostSelf (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> they really did nothing against them.



What are you talking about? Gai kicked one in the gut and they needed to gather and combine forces to beat them .


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 13, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> 7th Gate Gai kicks Tsunade's head off. Hows that for defense. GG neg diff ^^^^^



The neg you gave me was delicious, I could taste your tears. ​​


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## FlamingRain (Sep 13, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Kakashi and Gai fought against  Full Bijuus, those Madara said to have comparable power to that of Perfect Susano'o.



No Bijū besides Kurama is even comparable to Madara's stabilized final Susano'o, and Kurama is massively ahead of all the others even at 50%.

They repelled a gas cloud from a Tailed Beast and that's it, they did nothing else to any of them. Once the others transformed Kakashi and Gai were just sitting there ruling out all their options- they couldn't achieve anything.

Mei could repel that gas cloud. Mei could also sit there and fail to be able to do anything against a Bijūdama barrage.



> Madara was toying with them and all of them looked like they were only physically attacking.



And in the same light it also looked like the Jinchūriki were only physically attacking.

Madara not using his full power doesn't detract from the fact that he was going for the kill regardless. You don't go skewering people unless you're intending to kill somebody.



> Gai accomplished his mission by taking the scroll and delivering it.



He then lost the scroll, so he failed the mission.



> I don't even know what to say here.



That it's true.



> Dear, i am talking about their one on one confrontation. Not against a Kisame that was barely even moving due to Samehada.



Kisame blocked Gai and hit him with a water shark bomb. That had nothing to do with anyone's interference- it was a one on one interaction.

Gai's failure to stop Kisame there is what lead to the chase; Tsunade would have already ended it though, thus, she would have handled it a lot more efficiently.



> And that doesn't contradict my point either way, because a much weaker version of Madara _let_ Tsunade touch him or his Susano'o when he could've just tossed her aside.



Again no he did not. He let Ohnoki hit him, he did not let Tsunade hit him, which is why he had to provide that excuse.

Madara _could have_ just tossed Gai aside too like he did when he tried Hirudora.



> Just like he knew Tobirama was nothing to him and yet he showed no mercy.



Because Tobirama kept repeating Hiraishin in melee range while aiming for his head. That's not nothing to him without his bolstered durability and perpetual regeneration. Sasuke had been given a technique that would bind him in response to having Hashirama's Senjutsu (which would make regeneration irrelevant), so there's his incentive on that occasion as well.



> This does not change his mindset at all.



It does. The safer he is the more lax he gets. Ten Tails' recovery ability and bolstered durability makes him a lot safter than just sitting around in a Sage Mode prone to being binded, he perceived himself to be safest against Gai as a result.



> You don't need to be unable to deal with something to worry.



You need to be considering whether or not you're able to deal with something to worry. _That's what worry is by its very nature_.



> And Juudara can heal, so there is no point of him being worried by Minato.



It's not the quickest process, and he was trying not to lose Obito to a Kamui (which is the quickest process), so yeah there is a point.



> No, i don't think it's normal that just because he was playful against the kages he considered ants that he would be serious against Sasuke, Tobirama, Minato, Gaara, Bee and not with Gai. Especially after being outright surprised.



The Kages didn't have anything to do with his meteor decision. It simply shows that knowing he has recovery abilities makes Madara care less- i.e.- it changes his mindset accordingly.



> Claiming a feat because he was surprised is not an amazing feat. The "!" indicator does not mean he was pressured.



A common sense interpretation of his face alongside his lack of denial that he was _forced_ to use Hashirama's technique and instead reluctant providing of a numbers excuse, _does_ mean that he was pressured though.



> What was Tsunade's individual feat there? Hitting a Madara that was cornered with the help of the other kages in a situation he allowed himself to be put in?



Forcing Madara to retract his weak woman comment without showing two of her trumps. That feat is hers alone, not the Five Kage's. Otherwise he wouldn't have retracted the statement, because she was already collaborating with the rest before that.



> Oh, you mean the situation Madara allowed himself to be put in when he saw her running towards him and did nothing when he could've just taken her out or shoot a Katon against her? That situation where if not for Mei, Tsunade would've been outright burned and pushed back, ending in a no kick to Susano'o situation? Yeah, nice individual feat.



You're going off on an irrelevant tangent.

I said he acknowledged her might- he _did_. He was speaking specifically to her, _not_ the Five Kage collectively, hence the specification of "woman" at the end of his comment. Woman =/= Five Kage, woman = Tsunade, hence the individuality of the feat.

_*DUH.*_

And Mei didn't know that Tsunade could have simply jumped right through the Katon due to her regeneration, she only realized that Tsunade could regenerate after the Susano'o blade snapping and Yasaka Magatama event.



> Jiraiya with Fukusaku and Shima were taken out mostly by Asura Path because they thought Pain was dead. But i bet that doesn't mean Asura Path is a monster to Jiraiya.



It means _Pain_ is a monster to Jiraiya.

Pain's feint was different but the overarching tactic is the same- because Jiraiya was convinced that Pain had been defeated Pain was able to find an opening that caused everything to go downhill from Jiraiya from thereon out. In a similar way, resilience allows Tsunade set a trap in order to take out her opponents while they're off guard. That's a valid fighting tactic- there is more to battle than simply forcing your way forward.



> My point is that Madara "letting" Gai move towards him being used as an argument to put him below Tsunade when Tsunade got the same treatment. Thus is a bad example.



No, you're simply operating under a bad understanding of the purpose of the example. It's not being used as an argument to put him below Tsunade, it's being used to negate the idea that Gai is so problematic for the man who could immediately retaliate against Sage Mode Hiraishin users and thus should be put above Tsunade.



> You quoted my post about saying why GT's example is bad using feats that Tsunade accomplished helped by Shinobis of her same caliber.



Right, and that's a pitiful argument on your part.



> That's what good a feat is for if the opponent is cocky and in a determined situation



_*1.) *_That still counts.
_*2.) *_You don't need to be cocky to get ambushed.
_*3.) *_It takes more than simply being a medic to pull of that convincing of a feat, because most medics cannot heal such an injury. If she is dealt such an injury earlier in the fight, she could just use _that opportunity_ for an ambush.

The one and only reason she didn't get Madara was because he just so happened to be immune to his own powers and Tsunade was unaware of that. 



> I see nothing impressed by being bisected by a single opponent that probably never went all out.



Then you're missing the point because you're so caught up in power comparisons that you can't appreciate specific traits and how they might turn into a cumulative case for general power. Your gauge for what constitutes an impressive feat is too narrow, because you're too concerned with losing to an opponent that wasn't going all out to acknowledge how astonishing it is to even survive bisection, let alone be worried about others, which is the reason I'm pointing out the feat.

When looking at the full scope of someone's abilities, such a feat just makes one all the more impressive.



> Tsunade would've been an old weakened woman if not for Karin. We don't know how much she would've lasted that way.



Tsunade can live that way just fine, she just needs to hang loose for a bit like she said after the battle with Manda and Orochimaru.


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## JuicyG (Sep 13, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The neg you gave me was delicious, I could taste your tears. ​​




Doesnt change the fact Gai>Tsunade.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 13, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Doesnt change the fact Gai>Tsunade.



Wow. I am utterly blown away by the far-reaching depths of your persuasive argument.​​


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## SSMG (Sep 13, 2014)

Base guy shits on tsunade with no summons hell beat her ten out of ten times and he can one shot katsuyu with an AT. The main reason why giy shits on her is because he can keep up with kcm narutos high end speed.. naruto could casually dodge eis full speed and its been stated how tsunade is slower than raikage.. so in summary guy isnt getting touched by tsunades hits.  Guy is also the only person to counter obitos touch by himself without a s/t. jutsu. not to mention each of guys hits will be bpulder crushing strength n that was cause tsunade to constantly regen. guy has also blocked attacks that have one shotted kcm clones who are no slouch in the tanking departments so he can effectly block her strikes.


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## Butterfly (Sep 15, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Guy lee sasuke and sakura can all kick her ass.



If Guy is able to go to 8th gate or possibly 7th, he has a shot. I'm not sure if the OP is including Sasuke but I agree. Sakura has a chance too (primarily because she's evaded her attacks before). As for Lee? Nope. Not happening. 



Raikiri19 said:


> Sharingan-less Kakashi still kicks her and other asses. Smarter than everyone, faster, Raiton top notch mastery + high level Suiton and Doton, 1000 jutsu pool with Raiton Kage Bunshin hax etc



This isn't surprising from a man who thinks Part 1 Kakashi is superior to her but both received a 5 in intelligence. Raiton is the only thing he has against her. Suitons and dotons? Dotons? Are you effing kidding me? Dotons aren't taking her out and Katsuyu sponges most of these up. 



OG Appachai said:


> isnt Tsunade slowly killing herself every time her jutsu is activated? Isnt her true form that of a old lady that looks 70+ despite her being in her mid fifties?
> 
> 7th gated gate shits on tsunade that is fact, 7 gated guy pushed back jjmadara, tsunade got shat on by a playful EMS Madara even when she had back up from other kage, that alone says hows far above her he is.



Playful EMS Madara would smash on Guy tho, especially if he used full Susanno.  Madara implied that he was fighting Gai for the sake of fighting him and seemed to be let down at the prospect of it ending. Don't get me wrong, Guy would put up quite a fight but he's not shitting on someone that has regeneration and a meat shield in the form of a ridiculously durable slug. 7th gated guy would have to obliterate through regeneration, or, worse, Katsuyu who has no physical limit and can sponge taijutsu attacks like nothing. 

Besides, it's not like Madara wasn't explicitly aiming to kill Tsunade first .



HoseNTricks said:


> Guy will return to full health.
> 
> Also Lee >>> Tsunade



The chances of Lee putting down Tsunade are akin to Taylor Swift getting back together with that guy. 



SSMG said:


> Base guy shits on tsunade with no summons hell beat her ten out of ten times


How is he going to beat an opponent that can regenerate? How is base guy going to take out a slug? How is base Guy going to beat someone that took Susanno's strongest long range attack, as stated by Itachi, close range and came out from it ****flawless. 



> and he can one shot katsuyu with an AT.


Katsuyu has no bones to be crushed by this technique. Katsuyu has taken wind pressure damage before. She survived through Chibaku tensei and she survived through Shinra Village Buster Tensei. 



> The main reason why giy shits on her is because he can keep up with kcm narutos high end speed.. naruto could casually dodge eis full speed and its been stated how tsunade is slower than raikage.. so in summary guy isnt getting touched by tsunades hits.


She can outlast him. She can possibly take advantage of her durability and summon Katsuyu. While he's pounding her face into ninja heaven, she can use any chakra point on her body and pound him in response.



> Guy is also the only person to counter obitos touch by himself without a s/t. jutsu. not to mention each of guys hits will be bpulder crushing strength n that was cause tsunade to constantly regen.


Tsunade took Yasaka Magatama to the face and came out totally clean. She's physically durable, much more so than the average character. If we're looking at this from a physics perspective, the ground will exert equal force on her body when she shatters it meaning her body has to be durable to survive its own impacts. 



> guy has also blocked attacks that have one shotted kcm clones who are no slouch in the tanking departments so he can effectly block her strikes.


He can _block_ Tsunade's strikes? Blocking a strike from Tsunade is nothing short of _death_. This strike busted open Susanoo in two blows, left a gaping hole in the side of Madara, was enough to down a Susanoo clone with a hit, shatter a complete alleyway with a leg, fissured the ground with a single finger, and, most impressively, lifted a skyscraper knife and guided it into Manda's mouth before it could snap its jaws shut. The notion that anyone, let alone Guy, could block a punch from Tsunade and live to tell the tale is ridiculous. Guy tries blocking Tsunade's blow and his arms would be lucky if they weren't turned into bone powder before her fist cruises right through his chest and he meets his father in the next immediate panel.  

Orochimaru, a teammate of Tsunade's for years and an expert on her strength, stated a single hit could kill and, despite the fact that he has physical durability feats Guy couldn't imagine in his wildest dreams, did everything he possibly could to avoid taking a strike from her. A single hit from Tsunade left him unconscious for a period of time before he decided to disengage.


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