# Tsunade vs Base Itachi



## joshhookway (May 17, 2013)

Restrictions: MS
Location: Itachi vs Kuranai
Distance: 30 Meters
SOM: Itachi is pretending to be BL, Tsunade is IC
Knowledge: Manga


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## FlamingRain (May 17, 2013)

I thought you made this same thread not long ago. 



joshhookway said:


> SOM: Itachi is pretending to be BL





Regardless: Itachi is going to need the _Mangekyo Sharingan_ to defeat someone of Tsunade's caliber. She can make herself invulnerable to any of his offenses with _Byakugo no Jutsu _and she has a summon that likely can't be put in a genjutsu that she can rely on for the partner method.

Itachi may be a more fluent fighter, but he won't dare to try and hit her when he has to focus on avoiding being even so much as scratched by her, and she can trade shots with him should he ever come close.

. . . . . . . . . . . . .Wait, would he even attempt desperately dodging her strikes? Or would be block? It's easier to pull a cover-punch than it is to evade, and if he doesn't know about her herculean strength, he'll think he can block instead. . .and he can't without finding himself short half of a body.


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## Ersa (May 17, 2013)

Itachi wins.

While Tsunade knows not to look into his eyes, that's easier said then done as evidenced by Asuma claiming only Gai could pull off such a feat without practice. Furthermore she has no knowledge of finger genjutsu, while she could break out unlike Naruto I feel, images of Dan and Nawaki could make it take several seconds in which Itachi has ample time to send several kunai through her brain.

There's also a clear speed difference, Tsunade is not slow but DB pegs Itachi much faster and he could keep up with KCM Naruto without Shunshin which is means he can dodge Tsunade's hits all day. Especially if she's avoiding eye contact.

Katsuyu can be controlled with Sharingan and is not an IC move anyway. Tsunade will not bring out her big guns quickly but all Itachi needs is some genjutsu.


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## FlamingRain (May 17, 2013)

KCM Naruto wanted to _talk_ with Itachi. . .what good would he be doing if he was smacking him around.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Itachi wins.
> 
> While Tsunade knows not to look into his eyes, that's easier said then done as evidenced by Asuma claiming only Gai could pull off such a feat without practice. Furthermore she has no knowledge of finger genjutsu, while she could break out unlike Naruto I feel, images of Dan and Nawaki could make it take several seconds in which Itachi has ample time to send several kunai through her brain.
> 
> There's also a clear speed difference, Tsunade is not slow but DB pegs Itachi much faster and he could keep up with KCM Naruto without Shunshin which is means he can dodge Tsunade's hits all day. Especially if she's avoiding eye contact.



1- That's cool, but Tsunade can heal even the Tsukumi the other crap won't effect her. 
2- Yeah, that's also cool, but you forget that Itachi cannot run away all the day, on the other
hand Tsunade can play with him as much as she want thanks to her chakra.


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## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

Tsunade gets put in a genjutsu and gets kunai in head eyes and head.


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## Ersa (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> KCM Naruto wanted to _talk_ with Itachi. . .what good would he be doing if he was smacking him around.


KCM's Naruto movement speed alone is vastly superior to Tsunade so I don't see your point. 

Was Naruto at max speed? No.

Is KCM Naruto faster then Tsunade? Yes and by an enormous amount and so is Itachi.

I love how people think Byakugo is a IC move and Tsukiyomi can be tanked. TorJan I'm not going to reply to your idiotic nonsense, even hardcore Tsunade fans would not say she stomps.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

Rasant said:


> I love how people think Byakugo is a IC move and Tsukiyomi can be tanked. TorJan I'm not going to reply to your idiotic nonsense, even hardcore Tsunade fans would not say she stomps.





like this



I know, it hurts. Sorry.


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## Ersa (May 18, 2013)

So Tsunade is going to do that while being tortured in a different dimension? Or after she's been mindfucked to oblivion? Kakashi who had dojutsu defense was in a coma for a week, Tsunade without Sharingan is not going to be any better. How do you think Tsunade will fare being stabbed and watching Dan and Nawaki die for 72 hours? Regardless that doesn't matter as MS Itachi is leagues above Tsunade.

Itachi wins here as well


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Rasant said:


> KCM's Naruto movement speed alone is vastly superior to Tsunade so I don't see your point.
> 
> Was Naruto at max speed? No.
> 
> Is KCM Naruto faster then Tsunade? Yes and by an enormous amount and so is Itachi.



Of course Naruto's movement speed is superior, which doesn't mean anything here because Itachi does not rival KCM Naruto's speed.

Itachi's speed is not so enormous that it becomes an insurmountable edge.



> I love how people think Byakugo is a IC move and Tsukiyomi can be tanked. TorJan I'm not going to reply to your idiotic nonsense, even hardcore Tsunade fans would not say she s]tomps.



Byakugo was designed for medics to fight. . .why the crap is it not an IC move?

Tsukuyomi's psychological trauma _can_ be withstood. It took seconds to get Kakashi and Sasuke over it, and Tsukuyomi didn't instantly knock out Kakashi so it won't knock  out Tsunade before she can tap her forehead.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

Rasant said:


> So Tsunade is going to do that while being tortured in a different dimension? Or after she's been mindfucked to oblivion? Kakashi who had dojutsu defense was in a coma for a week, Tsunade without Sharingan is not going to be any better. How do you think Tsunade will fare being stabbed and watching Dan and Nawaki die for 72 hours? Regardless that doesn't matter as MS Itachi is leagues above Tsunade.
> 
> Itachi wins here as well



her seal is automatically heal her. Also, Itachi does not have MS here. 
Only the foolish who think he can win. and to make that even more pathetic 
she fought 5 of Madara's clones who they have EMS and V3 Sasanoo, yet they
weren't able to take her down. 

and you want me to believe this child who called Itachi without his MS
will take her down? Yeah right, that's so childish with the only reason 
"My favorite character must win no matter what!" Keep that's up. 

Tsunade maybe will be generous and fight him with 1 finger as she did to Naruto.
If she didn't make her summon fight instead of her, because this is not worthy for her
to move.


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## Ersa (May 18, 2013)

Itachi tangos with SM Kabuto, B and KCM Naruto, sports a 5 in Speed. He has speed comparable to Base Gai which is >> Tsunade. Yes it is an insurmountable edge, she's not getting a hit on him, especially when trying to avoid his eyes. 

Because she didn't activate it against Madara until things went south and that was Madara frickkin Uchiha. You think she's going to begin the fight with Byakogou? Not to mention Itachi can just trap her in Sharingan genjutsu and have her de-activate it like he made Kabuto de-activate Edo Tensei.

@TorJan: If you think Itachi is comparable to Part I Base Naruto then I know you're just trolling.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

> @TorJan: If you think Itachi is comparable to Part I Base Naruto then I know you're just trolling.



No, but I don't see what Itachi can do to Tsunade's summon. 

Oh by the way Itachi's fans themselves think that Naruto in part 1 > Itachi & Kisame. 
when they try to make Itachi at Jman's level. lol


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Itachi tangos with SM Kabuto, B and KCM Naruto, sports a 5 in Speed. He has speed comparable to Base Gai which is >> Tsunade. Yes it is an insurmountable edge, she's not getting a hit on him, especially when trying to avoid his eyes.
> 
> Because she didn't activate it against Madara until things went south and that was Madara frickkin Uchiha. You think she's going to begin the fight with Byakogou? Not to mention Itachi can just trap her in Sharingan genjutsu and have her de-activate it like he made Kabuto de-activate Edo Tensei.



Itachi got sliced in half by Kabuto. . .lol

KCM Naruto wasn't going all out, they were trying to talk to him, if he were trying to talk with Tsunade she'd have tango'd with him as well. Besides, Naruto's movement speed is hyped, not his striking speed. Because they were in close quarters, Naruto's movement speed was rendered. . .irrelevant.

A 5 in speed does not make him impossible to hit. And what kind of BS is this that base Gai is >> Tsunade? Base Gai has not a single feat that puts him above her in the speed department.

And before you go back to Tsunade's 3.5, keep in mind that her 3.5 does not account for her Shunshin- a ninjutsu that falls into a category she herself has a 5 in.

As far as reactions and striking speed go: 20 years rusty, exhausted Tsunade can react well to surprise attacks from underground when they are mere inches away from her, and current Tsunade can get shot to the battlefield at lightspeed and still register her surroundings quick enough to quickly strike and get her kick _under_ freaking Madara Uchiha's block.

There is by no means an insurmountable gap.

She activated Byakugo as soon as she was going to actually fight. She's actually fighting here- she will activate it.

And Tsunade isn't getting caught in Itachi's genjutsu when she has knowledge. People overestimate what it requires not to look into somebody's eyes. I'm a former martial artist myself irl, you do not look your opponents in the face when you fight, you're focusing on their body.


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## Thunder (May 18, 2013)

Itachi is a speedy character who also possesses a great "defense" in Sharingan, but I wouldn't argue that he avoids _every_ attack in the event this becomes a prolonged fight. As a battle drags on the likelihood of taking a hit increases; especially if this is sick Itachi (the OP didn't specify, so I will assume he is for now). Either way, the Senju / Uzumaki obviously beats out the Uchiha stamina wise.

And it's not like Itachi only has to deal with Tsunade lunging at him with fists here. The terrain is going to be in a constant state of upheaval, plus there's the nigh indestructible, acid spitting slug to worry about. Genjutsu isn't really a solid counter because of the partner method. Tsunade can easily break her out.

If we are to assume a kunai drilled into the brain is enough to bypass Sōzō Saisei / Byakugō, then yes, Itachi has the tools to win this. I'm of the opinion that a head shot wouldn't down Tsunade for good considering how hyped her regeneration is, but there's no way to be completely sure. Just my two cents.


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## Sans (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> KCM Naruto wanted to _talk_ with Itachi. . .what good would he be doing if he was smacking him around.



That's why he leaped up into the air to confront Itachi.

Let's also disregard that conversations haven't impeded combat in any comic or manga ever.

EDIT: I do agree with Thunder though.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Exactly. So he could hear him better, duh.


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## Mithos (May 18, 2013)

Itachi doesn't have the tools to take Tsunade down with MS restricted. 

She is going to regenerate whatever he throws at her and eventually tag him. She is a master of chakra control so I don't buy his non-Sharingan genjutsu taking her down - and she knows not to look into his eyes. She avoided being put under a genjutsu against Madara's Susano'o clones. The fact that Madara put A under as soon as he was open suggests he would have done the same to the other Kage had he been able.

Katsuyu also can protect her while she breaks out. If Katsuyu is put under, Tsunade can channel her chakra through her remotely and break it.  

Itachi is going to be tough to hit, but Tsunade is more skilled in CQC than him, doesn't have to worry about being hit by his attacks, has attacks that destroy the terrain and can mess up balance, has a giant summon to assist offensively and defensively, and a much much larger stamina pool to wear him down with.

Itachi needs MS to beat the Sannin.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 18, 2013)

Thunder said:


> Itachi is a speedy character who also possesses a great "defense" in Sharingan, but I wouldn't argue that he avoids _every_ attack in the event this becomes a prolonged fight. As a battle drags on the likelihood of taking a hit increases; especially if this is sick Itachi (the OP didn't specify, so I will assume he is for now). Either way, the Senju / Uzumaki obviously beats out the Uchiha stamina wise.
> 
> And it's not like Itachi only has to deal with Tsunade lunging at him with fists here. The terrain is going to be in a constant state of upheaval, plus there's the nigh indestructible, acid spitting slug to worry about. Genjutsu isn't really a solid counter because of the partner method. Tsunade can easily break her out.
> 
> If we are to assume a kunai drilled into the brain is enough to bypass Sōzō Saisei / Byakugō, then yes, Itachi has the tools to win this. I'm of the opinion that a head shot wouldn't down Tsunade for good considering how hyped her regeneration is, but there's no way to be completely sure. Just my two cents.





Matto-sama said:


> Itachi doesn't have the tools to take Tsunade down with MS restricted.
> 
> She is going to regenerate whatever he throws at her and eventually tag him. She is a master of chakra control so I don't buy his non-Sharingan genjutsu taking her down - and she knows not to look into his eyes. She avoided being put under a genjutsu against Madara's Susano'o clones. The fact that Madara put A under as soon as he was open suggests he would have done the same to the other Kage had he been able.
> 
> ...



These. 

I don't know why people are arguing about Tsukuyomi when MS is restricted, but Tsunade has healed it effortlessly, and considering her ability to heal herself is far greater than her ability to heal others...


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## Bkprince33 (May 18, 2013)

Sharingon, precognition, and being slightly faster then Kakashi and sasuke basically make itachi extremely hard to hit, even bee and naruto had trouble trying to open him up, so I doubt tsunade would be able to land a decisive blow, before she is place into a genjutsu, the fact that she can't make eye contact with itachi also greatly hinders her taijutsu ability, so I see itachi taking this with mid to high difficulty.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> These.
> 
> I don't know why people are arguing about Tsukuyomi when MS is restricted, but Tsunade has healed it effortlessly, and considering her ability to heal herself is far greater than her ability to heal others...



What about me 


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Jk


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## αce (May 18, 2013)

Seeing as how Itachi's genjutsu is much stronger than Sasuke's, a genjutsu in base would be enough to grant him a victory in this situation. Sasuke's base genjutsu has paralytic effects, god knows what Itachi's can do.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

I thought that it was Itachi's Tsukuyomi that was much stronger than Sasuke's. Nevermind that we've seen what Itachi's base genjutsu do already, and they don't make people collapse on the floor like C. Genjutsu specialist or not, C is fodder, and Itachi is fighting a legendary ninja here. 

Assuming he puts her in a genjutsu. . .then what? What is he going to do to her? Try to cut her like he did Orochimaru? She'll recover whatever damage is done. Katon? Lol.


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## Rocky (May 18, 2013)

αce said:


> Seeing as how Itachi's genjutsu is much stronger than Sasuke's, a genjutsu in base would be enough to grant him a victory in this situation. Sasuke's base genjutsu has paralytic effects, god knows what Itachi's can do.




She can probably heal from it man. She can neutralize the effects of Tsukuyomi by putting her hand on her head. Itachi's lesser Genjutsu would suffice to create openings, but not outright floor her.


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## Bkprince33 (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I thought that it was Itachi's Tsukuyomi that was much stronger than Sasuke's. Nevermind that we've seen what Itachi's base genjutsu do already, and they don't make people collapse on the floor like C. Genjutsu specialist or not, C is fodder, and Itachi is fighting a legendary ninja here.
> 
> Assuming he puts her in a genjutsu. . .then what? What is he going to do to her? Try to cut her like he did Orochimaru? She'll recover whatever damage is done. Katon? Lol.



He could decapitate her, kunai her eyes out, cut off her hand like oro, the options are vast with what he can do with a opening, so yeah she can take stuff but for how long?


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## tanman (May 18, 2013)

Itachi has the speed advantage, clones to make sure she never even comes close to hitting him, quickly acquired knowledge of her strength, and five different genjutsu that she has to avoid.  As soon as she's under genjutsu, he can take off one of her hands. Suddenly, she has no regen and this is a stomp.

She would only take this if the distance were more like 5 meters. Even then...


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> He could decapitate her, kunai her eyes out, cut off her hand like oro, the options are vast with what he can do with a opening, so yeah she can take stuff but for how long?



Assuming decapitation would kill her, it's very unlikely to happen. Raikage's Raigyaku Suihei didn't take Sasuke's head off despite taking his own arm off, Killer Bee's shrouded Lariat also doesn't decapitate unless combod up with Ay's.

Itachi is physically weaker than Ay and Bee, Tsunade is more durable than Sasuke.

Her hand would. . .grow back.

Her stamina is also vastly beyond his. The longer the fight goes on the more dangerous it becomes for Itachi, not for Tsunade.


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## tanman (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Assuming decapitation would kill her, it's very unlikely to happen. Raikage's Raigyaku Suihei didn't take Sasuke's head off despite taking his own arm off, Killer Bee's shrouded Lariat also doesn't decapitate unless combod up with Ay's.
> 
> Itachi is physically weaker than Ay and Bee, Tsunade is more durable than Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Manga knowledge Tsunade has no reason to immediately enter Byakugo.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 18, 2013)

If Kusanagi could barely cut a few inches into Tsunade, what makes you think a simply kunai would chop off her entire hand?

And like FlamingRain said, even if decapitation would work, it's simply not going to happen. If it were her weakness, I'm pretty sure she would make sure she defends it too - it's not hard to defend a headshot, which is why most ninjas don't tend to go for it.

And as for Sharingan precognition allowing Itachi to dodge every single one of Tsunade's attacks...

this
this

Madara disagrees.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

@tanman

Except that Byakugo was designed for medics to fight.

Except that she knows she's facing a prodiguous Uchiha and may take a hit somewhere along the line.

Heck, do you guys think she believes him weak or something? She knows why Sasuke left the village, and that Sasuke only went after Itachi _after_ he was capable of killing Orochimaru.


Yeah. . .with what narut0ninjafan is saying: the Madara fight showed that mid-air is not where you want to be against Tsunade, and seeing as her strikes commonly force her foes into the air, that could prove a problem here as well.


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## Bkprince33 (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Assuming decapitation would kill her, it's very unlikely to happen. Raikage's Raigyaku Suihei didn't take Sasuke's head off despite taking his own arm off, Killer Bee's shrouded Lariat also doesn't decapitate unless combod up with Ay's.
> 
> Itachi is physically weaker than Ay and Bee, Tsunade is more durable than Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Well the problem is we don't know how much force he used against sasuke so I think its a bad example, like I think raikage's forearm is more durable then sasuke's head yet, he was able to cut his own for arm off pretty easily.


That much is certain but a kunai is sharp.



I never seened the extend of her regeneration, I didnt know she could grow back her limbs.



Well that's true but look at what effort itachi would have to use compared to tsunade.

Basic genjutsu, taijutsu, kunai's and that's about it.



Tsunade would have to constantly keep healing herself where itachi would just need to dodge and stick to the basics, thus she would end up burning more chakra then he would making the stamina advantage mute.


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## αce (May 18, 2013)

I just said the sharingan produces paralytic genjutsu's. She can't simply put her hand on her head if her movement is highly impaired. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on how stupid Itachi's genjutsu is. The main reason that the partner method and genjutsu immunity was invented is because genjutsu is simply broken.

Itachi can already alter your perception of reality without the mangekyou. 

And remember what happened with Sasuke? After he saw through the initial genjutsu that Itachi had placed on him, Itachi simply layered it over another genjutsu the moment he broke out. _That's exactly what's going to happen to Tsunade_. She's going to spend one moment breaking out of a genjutsu and the next moment breaking out of another because she has no way to stop Itachi from simply placing an endless amount of genjutsu's over her the entire battle. Break sharingan genjutsu? Nope, here's a finger genjutsu. Okay, you can break out of that, no problem, here's another goddamn genjutsu. Break out of that? Okay here's another sharingan genjutsu.



This argument that Itachi has nothing to kill her can also be applied to Orochimaru had we not had his admission that capturing Itachi was "an impossible dream". Katon's, bunshins and Kunai are not in any way going to put Orochimaru down. He's nigh immortal in battle. Yet he still admitted massive inferiority to Itachi. And there's no indication that Itachi ever needed his mangekyou to make that happen. 

She's going to be fighting the air for most of this fight and then she'll take a kunai to the face. If Minato's kunai was strong enough to the point where it was able to threaten A's life with raiton shroud on, then it is strong enough to take Tsunade's life. 



> And as for Sharingan precognition allowing Itachi to dodge every single one of Tsunade's attacks...
> 
> alter
> alter


Those are both wood clones. Let's not sit here and pretend that Tsunade is going to catch Itachi in a CQC, which he normally avoids anyways.


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## αce (May 18, 2013)

That alter panel was the wrong thing by the way. I was referring to Naruto tripping on acid in that fight. Disregard that part.


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## αce (May 18, 2013)

It also happened with Deidara as well.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 18, 2013)

αce said:


> I just said the sharingan produces paralytic genjutsu's. She can't simply put her hand on her head if her movement is highly impaired. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on how stupid Itachi's genjutsu is. The main reason that the partner method and genjutsu immunity was invented is because genjutsu is simply broken.
> 
> Itachi can already alter your perception of reality without the mangekyou. Despite the fact that Kakashi is experienced with genjutsu and has the sharingan he was still caught in the technique. It would take Tsunade longer than Kakashi would to break out of it.
> 
> ...



The first one is the real Madara, since his chest starts regenerating. He even admits he had no choice but to use a clone because he was so cornered.

As for the second one, it doesn't change the fact he still has the Sharingan precognition.

Itachi could potentially avoid her attacks for some time, but to say he would never get hit is going too far.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Well the problem is we don't know how much force he used against sasuke so I think its a bad example, like I think raikage's forearm is more durable then sasuke's head yet, he was able to cut his own for arm off pretty easily.



. . .you think a bloodlusted Raikage decided to hold back on Sasuke?




> That much is certain but a kunai is sharp.



So were the attacks that hit Sasuke.



> I never seened the extend of her regeneration, I didnt know she could grow back her limbs.



Sozo Saisei's description says that she can grow back even lost organs and limbs if necessary; Byakugo is the amped up Sozo Saisei, and honestly with all the damage to her internal organs that she's healed, as well as the apparent ability to reattach her halves even while in base, I think it'd be really, really silly to assume her hand wouldn't come back.



> Well that's true but look at what effort itachi would have to use compared to tsunade.
> 
> Basic genjutsu, taijutsu, kunai's and that's about it.



Seems like Itachi's putting in _more_ effort than Tsunade, which would just drain him even faster.

Her genjutsu defense is good enough to deal with anything he'll dish out, especially with Katsuyu- and since they're thousands of independent slugs, I don't think they can even be genjutsu'd.

Itachi cannot enter taijutsu without putting himself in Tsunade's reach, and he doesn't hit hard enough to even force her to regenerate seeing as she tanked Madara's mini Magatama, which shattered huge boulders just by sending her into them (meaning the initial impact that she actually got hit with was > than what shattered the boulders, as none of the force had been lost on her body like the boulders).

He's faster yes, but being faster doesn't make you capable of hitting someone and dodging at the same time. She'd trade shots with him and he'd explode.

His safest bet would be sending a clone, but halving his chakra against a Senju/Uzumaki is a very, very bad idea as well.



> Tsunade would have to constantly keep healing herself where itachi would just need to dodge and stick to the basics, thus she would end up burning more chakra then he would making the stamina advantage mute.



That's not what it looks like to me.


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## αce (May 18, 2013)

No the first one is a clone since they seal it in a sand tomb and Madara pops out of the ground immediately after they think had ended the fight.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 18, 2013)

αce said:


> No the first one is a clone since they seal it in a sand tomb and Madara pops out of the ground immediately after they think had ended the fight.



Clones don't regenerate though, and he had time to switch out before being sealed, as the sealing isn't instant.


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## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

αce said:


> No the first one is a clone since they seal it in a sand tomb and Madara pops out of the ground immediately after they think had ended the fight.



Don't bother, he believes that was the real Madara that managed to switch out with a clone with a second or two, you'd never come to agree.


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## αce (May 18, 2013)

No it was a clone. Not that it matters though. 5v1 is not comparable to 1v1. And Madara never attempted to use genjutsu that fight on account of him only testing Hashirama's abilities making it an even less relevant comparison.


Also I forgot to add that Itachi's crows can cast genjutsu. He did it against Sasuke when he told him to come meet him. That was a Karasu bunshin but it still caught a sharingan user in a genjutsu for a moment of time.

Tsunade's going to be fighting air this entire battle.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

αce said:


> This argument that Itachi has nothing to kill her can also be applied to Orochimaru had we not had his admission that capturing Itachi was "an impossible dream". Katon's, bunshins and Kunai are not in any way going to put Orochimaru down. He's nigh immortal in battle. Yet he still admitted massive inferiority to Itachi. And there's no indication that Itachi ever needed his mangekyou to make that happen.



He has nothing to kill Orochimaru in base. Orochimaru was aware that Itachi had the Mangekyo Sharingan, which is restricted here, when he said that.



> She's going to be fighting the air for most of this fight and then she'll take a kunai to the face. If Minato's kunai was strong enough to the point where it was able to threaten A's life with raiton shroud on, then it is strong enough to take Tsunade's life.



Once again assuming a headshot would kill her, and ignoring that Minato may very well be physically stronger than Itachi. . .how about we explain to me how Killer Bee would have known the kunai would threaten Ay's life? A kunai is not stronger than Sasuke's Raiton flowed katana, which bounced right off of Ay. So we can say that, 1. Minato was flowing Futon chakra into his blade (which would explain the size of the cut on the Hachibi's tentacle), 2. Killer Bee was just playing the better-safe-than-sorry game, not necessarily determining the kunai a threat to Ay's life, or 3. Ay was significantly less durable back then.



> Those are both wood clones. Let's not sit here and pretend that Tsunade is going to catch Itachi in a CQC, which he normally avoids anyways.



Wood clones don't regenerate like the Madara Tsunade hit.

Madara could have had a clone swap with him while the sand was blocking their line of sight. And we know clones can be used to maneuver in the air because base Naruto was doing it as early as the first chapters of part 2. We also saw that other bodies can be used as stepping stones in mid-air through Gai and his turtle.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 18, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Don't bother, he believes that was the real Madara that managed to switch out with a clone with a second or two.



This is a manga about ninjas, who can move and react and use techniques at insane speeds, and you're judging whether something is possible or not based on if it's possible in real life? 

I mean, clones don't regenerate. Clones turn back into wood. Madara claimed he was cornered so used a clone. That sounds more to me like he was cornered after he was hit, since them breaking Susanoo isn't really what I would call "cornering" him. Madara broke out of the seal using PS, so he can still move while being sealed. What makes it impossible for him to have switched with a clone and escape?



αce said:


> No it was a clone. Not that it matters though. 5v1 is not comparable to 1v1. And Madara never attempted to use genjutsu that fight on account of him only testing Hashirama's abilities making it an even less relevant comparison.



alter

Dude...


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Nothing makes it impossible. He is freaking hypersonic+ Madara Uchiha, who is far more skilled than base Naruto in the begining of part 2 who himself was able to maneuver with clones.


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## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> This is a manga about ninjas, who can move and react and use techniques at insane speeds, and you're judging whether something is possible or not based on if it's possible in real life?
> 
> I mean, clones don't regenerate. Clones turn back into wood. Madara claimed he was cornered so used a clone. That sounds more to me like he was cornered after he was hit, since them breaking Susanoo isn't really what I would call "cornering" him. Madara broke out of the seal using PS, so he can still move while being sealed. What makes it impossible for him to have switched with a clone and escape?



Who said I based this on if its possible in real life?

Thats pretty neat but we have discussed this for a damn near almost full 20 post, if not more. You believe it was the real Madara and I believe it was a clone, nothing we say will change the other opinion so might as well drop it, which is what I was telling Ace. Why let him get into a circle cycle of this when I know you nor Flamming Rain will see otherwise and vice versa?


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Who said I based this on if its possible in real life?
> 
> Thats pretty neat but *we have discussed this for a damn near almost full 20 post*, if not more. You believe it was the real Madara and I believe it was a clone, nothing we say will change the other opinion so might as well drop it, which is what I was telling Ace. Why let him get into a circle cycle of this when I know you nor Flamming Rain will see otherwise and vice versa?



 What thread was this!?


EDIT: Oh. . .I thought that said 20 pages, whoops.


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## αce (May 18, 2013)

> > Dude...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## narut0ninjafan (May 18, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Who said I based this on if its possible in real life?
> 
> Thats pretty neat but we have discussed this for a damn near almost full 20 post, if not more. You believe it was the real Madara and I believe it was a clone, nothing we say will change the other opinion so might as well drop it, which is what I was telling Ace. Why let him get into a circle cycle of this when I know you nor Flamming Rain will see otherwise and vice versa?



Then what are you basing it on?

Your original post could have done without the passive aggressiveness, by the way, if all you were telling ace was that we disagree on the matter.



αce said:


> I'm sorry. I must have missed the part where he was actively using genjutsu throughout the whole fight on Tsunade continuously.
> 
> I'm well aware of that page. It's pointless. It wasn't even on Tsunade.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Wouldn't actively layering genjutsus throughout the whole fight wear out Itachi's stamina?


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## αce (May 18, 2013)

With a base sharingan? No. I really doubt it. He won't be able to go forever but it would be childs play for a long time.



>



Yeah, I'm done responding to you.


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## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Then what are you basing it on?
> 
> Your original post could have done without the passive aggressiveness, by the way, if all you were telling ace was that we disagree on the matter.



Go read the thread with the old generation of kages vs Madara to see what I'm basing it on, not getting into this with you again.

There was no passive aggressiveness.


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## Bkprince33 (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> . . .you think a bloodlusted Raikage decided to hold back on Sasuke?


That's the  only way we would be able to explain the inconsistency, we know he is def more durable then sasuke, how is it he could cut his own forearm off, but not sasuke's head? Either way it's a inconsistent example that we really shouldn't apply here.



FlamingRain said:


> So were the attacks that hit Sasuke.


I really don't think sasuke is more durable then the raikage like I said I think it's a inconsistency that has nothing to do with this match up anyway.


FlamingRain said:


> Sozo Saisei's description says that she can grow back even lost organs and limbs if necessary; Byakugo is the amped up Sozo Saisei, and honestly with all the damage to her internal organs that she's healed, as well as the apparent ability to reattach her halves even while in base, I think it'd be really, really silly to assume her hand wouldn't come back.


I never said she couldn't I actually stated I didn't know the extent so I didn't challenge your statement on this.


FlamingRain said:


> Seems like Itachi's putting in _more_ effort than Tsunade, which would just drain him even faster.



You think a taijutsu exchange and a base sharingon genjutsu takes more chakra then regeneration and tsuande's seal?


FlamingRain said:


> Her genjutsu defense is good enough to deal with anything he'll dish out, especially with Katsuyu- and since they're thousands of independent slugs, I don't think they can even be genjutsu'd.


Based off what feats? Oro has a 5 in genjutsu and still couldn't break out of itachi's base genjutsu before getting his hand cut off.

itachi could just genjutsu Katsuya it worked on manda so I don't see why it wouldn't work on Katsuya 



FlamingRain said:


> Itachi cannot enter taijutsu without putting himself in Tsunade's reach, and he doesn't hit hard enough to even force her to regenerate seeing as she tanked Madara's mini Magatama, which shattered huge boulders just by sending her into them (meaning the initial impact that she actually got hit with was > than what shattered the boulders, as none of the force had been lost on her body like the boulders).


Of course itachi couldn't harm tsunade with his bare hands, but a kunai, with a genjutsu follow up would be a entirely different story, it would actually end the match if he could genjutsu her before she activates her seal.


FlamingRain said:


> He's faster yes, but being faster doesn't make you capable of hitting someone and dodging at the same time. She'd trade shots with him and he'd explode.


Itachi sparred with Kcm naruto and killer bee, tsunade will have extreme difficulty hitting him, when bee decided to use his seven sword style, itachi simply backed up out of range despite being a edo, he isnt the type to trade blows and keep in mind genjutsu is always viable so for tsunade to attempt taijutsu it's a great risk on her part as well.


FlamingRain said:


> His safest bet would be sending a clone, but halving his chakra against a Senju/Uzumaki is a very, very bad idea as well.


Actually no, he could just dodge her attacks and land a genjutsu.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 18, 2013)

αce said:


> With a base sharingan? No. I really doubt it. He won't be able to go forever but it would be childs play for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm done responding to you.



Same here. I mean, the fact you think Madara never wanted to use genjutsu in the fight, then you backtrack after I prove you wrong to say he wasn't shown to try and use it on Tsunade meaning its pointless despite the fact it proved your assertion wrong... You need to stop the damage control/trolling.



Bonly said:


> Go read the thread with the old generation of kages vs Madara to see what I'm basing it on, not getting into this with you again.
> 
> There was no passive aggressiveness.



You attempted to make my claims seem stupid just because they wouldn't be possible in real life. That's pretty passive aggressive if all you were trying to say is that we won't agree on the matter, but it doesn't matter I guess.


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## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> You attempted to make my claims seem stupid just because they wouldn't be possible in real life. That's pretty passive aggressive if all you were trying to say is that we won't agree on the matter, but it doesn't matter I guess.



No I didn't, don't make your assumption of what I did a fact. Madara was up in the air for a second or two before his clone got sealed. You believe Madara was in the air and then made a clone and got out in within of those few seconds do you not? So how am I trying make your claims seem stupid if I just said what you believe happened? I fail to see the passive aggressiveness if I said a fact and said "you'd never come to agree." in the same post but ok.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 18, 2013)

Bonly said:


> No I didn't, don't make your assumption of what I did a fact. Madara was up in the air for a second or two before his clone got sealed. You believe Madara was in the air and then made a clone and got out in within of those few seconds do you not? So how am I trying make your claims seem stupid if I just said what you believe happened? I fail to see the passive aggressiveness if I said a fact and said "you'd never come to agree." in the same post but ok.



You edited that in afterwards, but the way you said originally implied you found it stupid, but again, it doesn't matter.


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## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> You edited that in afterwards, but the way you said originally implied you found it stupid, but again, it doesn't matter.



So I list a fact and you make an assumption that I implied it stupid so it is? Grade A thinking there but it must matter to you since you keep replying after I made it clearly what I meant in my first reply to you and you'll likely(but hopefully not) reply to this post.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 18, 2013)

Bonly said:


> So I list a fact and you make an assumption that I implied it stupid so it is? Grade A thinking there but it must matter to you since you keep replying after I made it clearly what I meant in my first reply to you and you'll likely(but hopefully not) reply to this post.



You implied you found it stupid, not that it means that it's stupid. I know you like putting words in other people's mouths but that's not what I said. I don't see why it's so hard for you to admit your original post was passive aggressive. I don't particular care that you disagree with my point, but the fact that you challenge the notion your original post was passive aggressive when you were called out on it, despite the fact you edit your original post to make it seem less passive aggressive, is baffling to say the least.

Anyway, I'm done responding to you since you insist on using strawmen arguments, refuse to own up to being passive aggressive when your editing of posts suggests otherwise, and again resort to attempts to insult my intelligence.


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## tanman (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> @tanman
> 
> Except that Byakugo was designed for medics to fight.
> 
> ...



Madara was stronger and she had just as much knowledge on him. She new the entire scope of Orochimaru's power, yet she still chose to hold off on it. "May take a hit somewhere along the line" has as of yet not been adequate reason. She's hardly trigger happy with it.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

@tanman

I said it already to someone else, I think. She didn't use it against Madara to start because she wasn't fighting, she was in the back healing the others. When she actually _fights_, which she is doing here, she uses Byakugo. That is what Byakugo is for.



Bkprince33 said:


> That's the  only way we would be able to explain the inconsistency, we know he is def more durable then sasuke, how is it he could cut his own forearm off, but not sasuke's head? Either way it's a inconsistent example that we really shouldn't apply here.



It isn't inconsistent because Killer Bee's attack failed to take off his head as well. All it means is that it's hard to take someone's head off. It isn't something that can be achieved simply by having a speed advantage and picking up a kunai. At most Itachi will make a cut into her neck that she'll be able to heal from regardless.



> You think a taijutsu exchange and a base sharingon genjutsu takes more chakra then regeneration and tsuande's seal?



Yes. She's got a natural chakra reserve easily superior to his, and a second one on top of that thanks to her seal.

Look at it percentage wise, Itachi's going to take more off of his total than Tsunade will.



> Based off what feats? Oro has a 5 in genjutsu and still couldn't break out of itachi's base genjutsu before getting his hand cut off.
> 
> itachi could just genjutsu Katsuya it worked on manda so I don't see why it wouldn't work on Katsuya.



Not feats, because she's never been placed in a genjutsu, I'm using logic. Orochimaru having a 5 in genjutsu reflects his ability to cast it, not break it. As far as breaking it goes, Orochimaru was caught in a Sharingan genjutsu and still about to break out, so I'd think he'd have successfully broken out of any base genjutsu. Still, _Tsunade_ should be better at breaking genjutsu, seeing as her chakra control is more precise than his, and she can slap a mini-Katsuyu on her shoulder for the partner method if for some reason she can't just Kai out of it.

The reason I don't believe Katsuyu could be (at least conventionally) genjutsu'd is because, unlike Manda, Katsuyu is thousands of indepentent, hive-minded slugs. I don't think it would affect her, much in the same way genjutsu don't affect clones (Which we know because Kakashi's clone withstood Tsukuyomi while the actual Kakashi collapsed as soon as it was over).



> Of course itachi couldn't harm tsunade with his bare hands, but a kunai, with a genjutsu follow up would be a entirely different story, it would actually end the match if he could genjutsu her before she activates her seal.



Yeah. . .no, see below.



> Itachi sparred with Kcm naruto and killer bee, tsunade will have extreme difficulty hitting him, when bee decided to use his seven sword style, itachi simply backed up out of range despite being a edo, he isnt the type to trade blows and keep in mind genjutsu is always viable so for tsunade to attempt taijutsu it's a great risk on her part as well.



He never hit and dodged at the same time though. . .that's the problem. If Itachi backs up out of her range he can't hit her with the kunai. If he hits her with the kunai he'll be in her range. Itachi isn't trading blows with Tsunade, Tsunade's trading blows with Itachi.

Keep in mind that counter-attacking like this will be made easier by the fact that, in addition to Tsunade constantly altering the terrain, there will be thousands of human sized slugs on the field tthat limit Itachi's space to evade to. It's incredibly easy to picture Itachi leap back to avoid one of her shockwaves, trip over a slug, and be wide open to obliteration via melee-nuke. . .or just a slug spitting acid on him. Kishi seems to have had this slug _geared towards_ helping Tsunade hit troublesome opponents.

If Itachi wants to back up and shoot a Katon at her he'd better be prepared for her to punch it right back at him.

The reason genjutsu isn't a risk to Tsunade is the same reason trading blows isn't a risk to her: his offense cannot kill her.

He won't wear her out before he himself wears out, and if you think Itachi can magically go on forever without taking a hit in close-quarters, I don't see what stops Tsunade from simply summoning Katsuyu _on top of_ Itachi when she gets tired of him evading.


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## Butterfly (May 18, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Sharingon, precognition, and being slightly faster then Kakashi and sasuke basically make itachi extremely hard to hit, even bee and naruto had trouble trying to open him up, so I doubt tsunade would be able to land a decisive blow, before she is place into a genjutsu, the fact that she can't make eye contact with itachi also greatly hinders her taijutsu ability, so I see itachi taking this with mid to high difficulty.



Tsunade doesn't need to so much look at her opponents eyes. When Sakura, her student, fought Sasori, she was constantly looking and fighting him whilst looking at his hands and other features of his puppets. Perfect, constant, eye contact is irrelevant in taijutsu - especially when you're moving around and fighting. The only time when eye contact is needed is during TNJ to make sure those litlte shits are looking at you in the eyes. 

even then, how is Itachi going to kill her? He has no knowledge of her natural resilience, and isn't likely to icly opt for a headshot. This is a woman that woke up before her colleagues even though she's been chopped in half and pressed under a tree. A kunai through the brain doesn't even seem likely, as the amount of force it'd need to pass through the skull would be monumental and I don't know if Itachi's strength could produce such a thing. Even neuroscientists have to use specialized medical _drills_ to get into the brain, so suggesting a kunai can do it is sort of lol. Especially when headbutts in this manga have, alone, created substantial impact (Gaara vs. Naruto, Naruto vs. Tobi). 



Bkprince33 said:


> He could decapitate her, kunai her eyes out, cut off her hand like oro, the options are vast with what he can do with a opening, so yeah she can take stuff but for how long?


Decapitating isn't likely to work. If she was able to survive while sliced in half, I'm doubting severing her head could produce a decent result. Her eyes are regenerable, her hands are regenerable and it's not like Itachi knows she can regenerate anyways, so it's not like he's going to attempt decapitation. 

Additionally, if Tsunade summons, which she might, knowing Itachi's a specialist and Katsuyu can access the partner method with her chakra control/chakra, then anything that's sliced off is just going to be reattached. 



tanman said:


> Itachi has the speed advantage, clones to make sure she never even comes close to hitting him, quickly acquired knowledge of her strength, and five different genjutsu that she has to avoid.  As soon as she's under genjutsu, he can take off one of her hands. Suddenly, she has no regen and this is a stomp.
> 
> She would only take this if the distance were more like 5 meters. Even then...


She can match his clones with nigh invulnerable slugs who can access and prevent genjutsu from being passed. Also, regeneration is futile if she has katsuyu out because she can just reattach her hand. 



Bkprince33 said:


> Well that's true but look at what effort itachi would have to use compared to tsunade.
> 
> Basic genjutsu, taijutsu, kunai's and that's about it.


Taijutsu? Against Tsunade? He has some of the best intelligence feats in the manga. Are you really suggesting he'd go CQC against her? Please. From the moment the bridge beneath them drops from a casual blow from Tsunade, he's going to know to stay away from that shit. 





> Tsunade would have to constantly keep healing herself where itachi would just need to dodge and stick to the basics, thus she would end up burning more chakra then he would making the stamina advantage mute.


Byakugo lasts for an incredible amount of time. As seen against her fight with Madara, she allowed it to last from daytime into a transition into night time, and, even then, she still had enough chakra left over to summon Katsuyu, supercharge Onoki, etc.


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## Bkprince33 (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I said it already to someone else, I think. She didn't use it against Madara to start because she wasn't fighting, she was in the back healing the others. When she actually _fights_, which she is doing here, she uses Byakugo. That is what Byakugo is for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well it could also have something to due with the momentum and pace of the battle, either way we can both agree kishi wouldn't let a main character get his head cut off, so we can conclude sasuke is protected by plot as well, regardless if itachi decapitates her or even slices her neck, if he follows up with a genjutsu it pretty much a game ender.



FlamingRain said:


> Yes. She's got a natural chakra reserve easily superior to his, and a second one on top of that thanks to her seal.



Look at it percentage wise, Itachi's going to take more off of his total than Tsunade will.

Not really because regeneration takes a higher percentage off of tsuande's chakra, yes she has a bigger chakra pool but her moves also cost more chakra then itachi's taijutsu and base genjutsu.


FlamingRain said:


> Not feats, because she's never been placed in a genjutsu, I'm using logic. Orochimaru having a 5 in genjutsu reflects his ability to cast it, not break it. As far as breaking it goes, Orochimaru was caught in a Sharingan genjutsu and still about to break out, so I'd think he'd have successfully broken out of any base genjutsu. Still, _Tsunade_ should be better at breaking genjutsu, seeing as her chakra control is more precise than his, and she can slap a mini-Katsuyu on her shoulder for the partner method if for some reason she can't just Kai out of it.


I'm pretty sure his 5 reflects his all around ability in the area, hence he was starting to break it because he's a skilled genjutsu user.

That's like saying a 5 in taijutsu displays your ability to punch and kick but not to dodge and defend yourself.


FlamingRain said:


> Does she have better chakra control? Yes but she also has less skill in the department and no feats to suggest she would break out, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and I believe she can break out, but not before damage is sustained.



The mini Katsuya, is something entirely diff and aside from that I would think its a bit ooc because I never seen tsunade resort to Katsuya against a single opponent that didn't also posses a boss summon.


FlamingRain said:


> The reason I don't believe Katsuyu could be (at least conventionally) genjutsu'd is because, unlike Manda, Katsuyu is thousands of indepentent, hive-minded slugs. I don't think it would affect her, much in the same way genjutsu don't affect clones (Which we know because Kakashi's clone withstood Tsukuyomi while the actual Kakashi collapsed as soon as it was over).


Kakashi's clone was never hit with tsukiyomi but I get your point, the thing is what if she gets caught before she disperses into a bunch of slugs?


FlamingRain said:


> Yeah. . .no, see below.



He never hit and dodged at the same time though. . .that's the problem. If Itachi backs up out of her range he can't hit her with the kunai. If he hits her with the kunai he'll be in her range. Itachi isn't trading blows with Tsunade, Tsunade's trading blows with Itachi.

If he backs up, he has Katons, and kunai's to throw at tsunade, will she be ko'ed by these ? No, but constantl healing and regenerating will take its toll eventually.


FlamingRain said:


> Keep in mind that counter-attacking like this will be made easier by the fact that, in addition to Tsunade constantly altering the terrain, there will be thousands of human sized slugs on the field tthat limit Itachi's space to evade to. It's incredibly easy to picture Itachi leap back to avoid one of her shockwaves, trip over a slug, and be wide open to obliteration via melee-nuke. . .or just a slug spitting acid on him. Kishi seems to have had this slug _geared towards_ helping Tsunade hit troublesome opponents.


Agree here but to a degree, as I said before I think it's kind ooc, and beside that if Katsuya gets hit with a genjutsu before she disperses, this whole plan is null and void.

But if she did somehow get this off I see her trapping itachi eventually.


FlamingRain said:


> If Itachi wants to back up and shoot a Katon at her he'd better be prepared for her to punch it right back at him.



Fire isn't a solid object, so I don't see how she would just punch it back.


FlamingRain said:


> The reason genjutsu isn't a risk to Tsunade is the same reason trading blows isn't a risk to her: his offense cannot kill her.




If he deals a fatal blow and follows it with a genjutsu, how will she activate the seal or regenerate? Surely she would die if she doesn't heal herself from a fatal blow in a timely matter.


FlamingRain said:


> He won't wear her out before he himself wears out, and if you think Itachi can magically go on forever without taking a hit in close-quarters, I don't see what stops Tsunade from simply summoning Katsuyu _on top of_ Itachi when she gets tired of him evading.



If he constantly forces her to heal and regenerate that will take a toll, and it's not about magically going on without getting hit, look at the ridiculous speed advantage and he has sharingon pregoc to boot, along with the fact she wouldn't be able to make eye contact it will be hard for tsunade to land a hit.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Well it could also have something to due with the momentum and pace of the battle, either way we can both agree kishi wouldn't let a main character get his head cut off, so we can conclude sasuke is protected by plot as well, regardless if itachi decapitates her or even slices her neck, if he follows up with a genjutsu it pretty much a game ender.



Slicing her neck when she's lived through being split in half _without_ her regeneration isn't going to kill her. 

You could also say that Kishi wouldn't let Tsunade die from a headshot when she's hyped to be immortal with Sozo Saisei/Byakugo, so she should be "protected by plot" as well. 



> Not really because regeneration takes a higher percentage off of tsuande's chakra, yes she has a bigger chakra pool but her moves also cost more chakra then itachi's taijutsu and base genjutsu.



Hardly. Again, she can heal off things of this level with her regular medical techniques. She's healed thousands of people simultaneously after having summoned Katsuyu. Taijutsu and genjutsu will take off more than a thousandth, or even hundredth, of Itachi's chakra reserves.



> I'm pretty sure his 5 reflects his all around ability in the area, hence he was starting to break it because he's a skilled genjutsu user.
> 
> That's like saying a 5 in taijutsu displays your ability to punch and kick but not to dodge and defend yourself.



It's more akin to saying a 5 in taijutsu displays your skill but not your speed and power to go along with it. . .which would be correct.



> The mini Katsuya, is something entirely diff and aside from that I would think its a bit ooc because I never seen tsunade resort to Katsuya against a single opponent that didn't also posses a boss summon.



She was summoning Katsuyu against an armless Orochimaru who couldn't summon (she thought Kabuto, the only other opponent and the person providing Orochimaru with a way to summon, was out after collapsing from the Rasengan).



> Kakashi's clone was never hit with tsukiyomi but I get your point, the thing is what if she gets caught before she disperses into a bunch of slugs?



Yes it was, when he, Naruto, Sakura, and Chiyo were intercepted by Shoten Itachi.

I think it's always a bunch of little slugs, that are just sticking together when she's in her biggest form.

But she shares some sort of mental link with Tsunade, so if something goes out of whack with her chakra it will be noticed and nullified.



> If he backs up, he has Katons, and kunai's to throw at tsunade, will she be ko'ed by these ? No, but constantl healing and regenerating will take its toll eventually.



Thrown kunai that probably won't even dig that deep into her considering Kusanagi didn't go far. She can probably heal that crap off with her standard medical ninjutsu.



> Agree here but to a degree, as I said before I think it's kind ooc, and beside that if Katsuya gets hit with a genjutsu before she disperses, this whole plan is null and void.
> 
> But if she did somehow get this off I see her trapping itachi eventually.



It isn't really OOC for Tsunade to summon. Meanwhile, it _is_ IC for Katsuyu to assist Tsunade of her own accord/without Tsunade's active command. If Tsunade's not having luck hitting Itachi she will try to get in his way and trip him up after splitting.



> Fire isn't a solid object, so I don't see how she would just punch it back.



The same way she punched away Madara's.



> If he deals a fatal blow and follows it with a genjutsu, how will she activate the seal or regenerate? Surely she would die if she doesn't heal herself from a fatal blow in a timely matter.



Considering how long she can survive being split in half before healing herself, I'm going to go ahead and say that she'll be just fine until she can heal herself.



> If he constantly forces her to heal and regenerate that will take a toll, and it's not about magically going on without getting hit, look at the ridiculous speed advantage and he has sharingon pregoc to boot, along with the fact she wouldn't be able to make eye contact it will be hard for tsunade to land a hit.



Considering she's hard to damage anyway, it won't take a toll on her before it takes a toll on him. Tsunade's consistency is higher than Itachi's, he can't fight for hours, especially while wasting chakra on other Kages, but Tsunade can- and she'll last even longer when she isn't giving her chakra to others.

He'll gradually start slowing down as the match drags on and with the terrain constantly being altered and slugs his size jumping everywhere, so yeah it will take a miracle for him to never get hit while trying to outlast a chakra monster even amongst Kages.

There is a clear speed difference, but once again, it is not an insurmountable one. And, simultaneously once again, I'm a former martial artist myself- you don't typically look your opponents in the eyes when you're fighting, you focus on their bodies, where you'll have a view of a good part of both arms and legs, thus allowing you to see if they start moving quicker than you would looking somewhere else. It won't be difficult to avoid eye contact.


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## Okodi (May 19, 2013)

Tsunade wins this. Without MS, Itachi won't have enough assets to defeat Tsunade. Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Susano'o (Totsuka + Yata mirror) are needed to deal with her. A katon won't stop her and a genjutsu won't either. Though Tsukiyomi might be hard/impossible to dispel from the inside a regular one will be no problem. If you add the fact that Naruto managed to clap his hands together when Itachi (30% Kisame chakra) placed him in a genjutsu, then Tsunade is going to be able to release herself. And if her hand reaches her head then arguably NO GENJUTSU will have a continued effect.

And with that said, Itachi without any MS would ultimately lose. If the fight goes the distance then Tsunade will beat him considering her larger arsenal of attacks and chakra reserves compared to Itachi.

Itachi might be able to dodge in the beginning but will eventually run out of chakra.


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## LostSelf (May 19, 2013)

I don't agree with this logic of "Madara never attempted to put Tsunade in genjutsu so she's hard to be put in". First of all, if he wanted, he would've put her in genjutsu with ease. And second, by that logic, we can say that he never tried to genjutsu Gaara or Mei, so they both are hard to put in genjutsu as well.

Or that he never cut Gaara in half with a log, so Gaara should be very hard to cut. I don't find sense in this. He just never chose to put Tsunade in genjutsu and since she pales in comparison to him (The five Kages together are nothing to him) it's very clear that Madara never put her in gejutsu because he couldn't. It was because he didn't want to.

That said, Itachi is someone as fast as Gai, has Sharingan precog, is more inteligent and a better tactical fighter so it would not be easy to hit him either and he will deal tremendous amount of damage dodging her attacks and forcing her to take hits.

And since she is not skilled fighting like Gai does against Uchihas, it will be harder for her to keep up with Itachi since he can jump or move out of her sight and following only his feets will be harder for her to try to locate him as she avoid genjutsu.

But i don't know what base Itachi can do to kill her. His best bet is killing her before Byakugo comes in or outlast her damaging her (If this is not sick Itachi, the chances are not bad since his jutsus will not be taxing) and forcing her to waste chakra regenerating. Aside from that i don't know so i give the majority to Tsunade with very high diff.


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## BD Itachi (May 19, 2013)

shunshin blitz and kunai decapitation

with sharingan and izanami, base itachi is muu/oonoki level; they are far stronger than tsunade.

adding mangekyou turns it into an epic rape...


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## k2nice (May 20, 2013)

Mid to low difficulty for Itachi

I hate to say it but all Itachi has to do is hinder her in a genjutsu and either burn her to a crisp, send some kunai to the right spots, or use his sword and cut her. Eye contact will be made and Itachi is no amature at catching people in genjutsu, he's arguably the best in the entire manga. His genjutsu isnt for the weak either, what makes you think that Tsunade would be able to get out or mentally survive the bombardment of genjutsu he will throw at her. Do you guys remember when Sasuke entered the Uchiha Hideout, that whole battle was just genjutsu. Do you guys really expect Tsunade to not get caught in Genjutsu?? The closer she gets, the easier it is for itachi to get her into one and Tsunade is a close range fighter.


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## Hero (May 20, 2013)

tanman said:


> Manga knowledge Tsunade has no reason to immediately enter Byakugo.



Manga knowledge, Tsunade knows enough about Itachi to know he is an uchiha, powerful, an S class criminal and thus highly dangerous.

Tsunade _WILL_ activate Byakugo upon entering battle. She made that very apparent during the Madara fight.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 20, 2013)

I feel like TLDRing you all today 


*→ Location, Knowledge and Distance*

I feel like a sensible start to this analysis would be to look at the location. The narrow walkway is effective for allowing Tsunade to go all smashy smashy, and the narrow spaces between the collection trees makes this all the more apparent should Itachi retreat or place clones into the foliage [1] On the other hand, the water adjacent to the railings is useful for Itachi to flee onto should Tsunade's smashy smashy tactics get out of hand - (though it also serves as great cover for evading his katons). The initial distance means Itachi will using a lot of projectile ninjutsu initially, though once Tsunade closes the distance it will be a game of tag, imo.

Manga knowledge means Itachi knows Tsunade is a Sannin, Hokage and skilled medic. She's was revered in the Second Great War as being the ' Slug Princess ' as well, so he probably knows she uses slugs in battle. Though, he doesn't know any of her actual specific skills outside that of the generic _shosen no jutsu_ and _chakra no mesu_. On the other hand, Tsunade knows Itachi is an Uchiha and thus skilled at Katons. She knows he's a skilled a genjutsu user as she would have _reports_ of Team 7's battle against him, and that he possesses the _sharingan_. This is something I'm certain she has knowledge of since she battled Madara Uchiha, and has data files on Sasuke and probably other ex-Konoha Uchiha as well. Generally speaking, Tsunade has more knowledge of Itachi than he does of her.

*→ Taijutsu, Ninjutsu and Genjutsu*

*I. Taijutsu*

Starting off, lets look at the speed difference. Tsunade's best feats in this area include attacking in co-ordinance with Base Ei, outpacing Onoki in mid air, and deflecting all five of Madara's katon projectiles before her Kage peers could react. On the other hand, Itachi can (iirc) tango with Killer Bee in CQC and at least keep up with KCM Naruto's movements. There's a 1.5 speed difference between the two, though that doesn't leave Tsunade _totally_ incapable of keeping up with Itachi: her reactions sufficient enough to _register the movements of foes_ notably faster than her. There are also other shinobi who had 1.5 speed differences and still kept up with one another, even if only briefly eg. Sakura vs Ino, Shikamaru vs Kakuzu, Ino vs Asuma, Hiruzen vs Orochimaru . . etc. Often times a high enough taijutsu stat can make up for a lack of speed, and in this case Tsunade has the edge in that regard (though only by a .5). Tsunade will definitely struggle to connect hits, thats for sure.

*II. Ninjutsu*

The real question is though, can they actually do damage to each other? Looking at Itachi, his ninjutsu consist of generic projectile katon and explosive clones, which an evasion specialist like Tsunade would effortlessly dodge or fall beneath the surface of the water to avoid. He can produce shadow clones  in abundance but, trying to out-number her is meaningless whenever she can summon thousands of tiny Katsuyu clones to the field. Even on the off chance that he makes a bunch of clones and manages to hit her with a katon/explosive, she's durable, highly resilient, and can if needed be healed by Katsuyu while she continues to throw blows. On the other hand, Tsunade needs only a poke or graze to inflict significant damage, and even if one of these brief hits didn't kill him, they would certainly be enough to slow him down to the point that a follow-up strike _would_. Tsunade has a higher taijutsu stat, and although slower than Itachi, there is still a chance that she will land just _one_ hit. Challenging her in taijutsu is very risky, and I'm of the belief that Itachi would try and avoid doing so. 

*III. Genjutsu*

As for Genjutsu, Tsunade has a lot of counters for it. Many of his genjutsu can easily be recognised as such, and so she can put her high chakra control to use and break out of it with a _Genjutsu: Kai_. More subtle illusions may be harder for her to break, but even subtle genjutsu can be seen through provided one is intelligent enough [1+2] [3] Tsunade happens to have a 5 in intelligence, and as far as feats go she's a medical shinobi (the greatest one in the world at that), meaning she's a recognised highly intelligent individual - just as real life doctors are. There's every chance she will be able to see through Itachi's illusions, even if they are similar/the same as the ones he used against Sasuke. She can break herself out of more powerful illusions by releasing her Yin seal - the huge burst of chakra flowing into her body would definitely break Itachi's control of her chakra system.

*→ The Deciding Factor? *

What I believe allows Tsunade to ultimately trump this however, is Katsuyu. Even in the event that taijutsu doesn't work, Itachi will have spent so much stamina dodging her attacks, using his sharingan, throwing high-level ninjutsu and trying to catch her in genjutsu, that by the time Katsuyu is brought out he'll have an awfully hard time dodging her enormous acid blasts, which she can spray all over the battlefield. He could hide underwater to escape damage if he wanted, but he still has no way of actually putting the slug down. Either he'll come out of hiding and try and approach Tsunade in close combat - at which stage she and Katsuyu will kill him, or he'll run out of energy and die.

Tsunade wins this, with medium difficulty.​​


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## FlamingRain (May 20, 2013)

GT, do you think Tsunade can send Itachi's fireball back at him? Seeing what she did to Madara's and all. . .


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 20, 2013)

Quite possibly, if she can do it with other chakra-based projectiles then I don't see why not. Though she has no reason to burn her arms like that whenever she can easily dodge it.​​


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## FlamingRain (May 20, 2013)

I think she could do it for the purpose of potentially catching Itachi off guard and getting him that way.

If he jumps over it like Kakashi's team did, she might catch him before he lands and end his life.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 20, 2013)

Taking him in mid-air is no good whenever he can make handseals for Kage Bunshin mid-brawl. He can make a clone to take the hit for him if she tries that.​​


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## FlamingRain (May 20, 2013)

That is true. 

Wasn't thinking about that.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 20, 2013)

Rookie mistake ​​


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## Butterfly (May 20, 2013)

k2nice said:


> Mid to low difficulty for Itachi
> 
> I hate to say it but all Itachi has to do is hinder her in a genjutsu and either burn her to a crisp, send some kunai to the right spots, or use his sword and cut her. Eye contact will be made and Itachi is no amature at catching people in genjutsu, he's arguably the best in the entire manga. His genjutsu isnt for the weak either, what makes you think that Tsunade would be able to get out or mentally survive the bombardment of genjutsu he will throw at her. Do you guys remember when Sasuke entered the Uchiha Hideout, that whole battle was just genjutsu. Do you guys really expect Tsunade to not get caught in Genjutsu?? The closer she gets, the easier it is for itachi to get her into one and Tsunade is a close range fighter.



Tsunade's not going to be burned to a crisp. This is a manga where Katons are as useful as condoms with holes poked in the middle. He doesn't have a sword, as far as memory goes, either. Tsunade has also tanked hits in locations that have proven otherwise fatal for other ninja (her chest, which killed Asuma and Sarutobi, in the latter case, it was with the same person). 

Itachi's only option is to harm Tsunade once she's in a genjutsu, and that will come at quite an expense since she has a huge damage soak. Even then, if she has the partner method, Katsuyu will be able to snap her out of a genjutsu by injecting her with some of her own chakra. Her amazing chakra control and intelligence will be able to help her out of a genjutsu and she possesses a great knowledge on the human mind and psyche - as seen with her healings of Kakashi and Sasuke from the mental damage. 

So, he gets her in a genjutsu but then what? He has no way to permanently put her down.


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## Fifth Hokage (May 21, 2013)

Tsunade should win with mid difficulty to be honest.
Itachi's only chance is a strong Genjutsu.However it  should be countered by Tsunade's great chakra control.His Ninjutsu arsenal isn't powerful enough to defeat Tsunade,when she is using Byakugo.Furthermore he can't counter Ranshinsho  and her great Taijutsu skills.
He could control Katsuyu with his Sharingan,but even his Sharingan is useless against Katsuyu's
great division.On top of that Tsunade doesn't lack speed ,because she can overcome a huge distance in seconds.


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## Jad (May 21, 2013)

I quickly skimmed GT's post, just wanted to note the three things that stood out to me (quite honestly I read it at a glance). Firstly, you listed the 'sharingan' as if it was something that would drain his stamina. Itachi is an Uchiha, Kakashi is not, that's why it's a problem for him. Secondly, "register the movements of foes", that scan, what use does it have? Can you explain that in more detail, sort of looks like you just randomly slapped a scan and added your own words to it. Lastly, what do you mean attacking in co-ordinance with Base Ei? I've seen you always post that but never follow it up with a reference. Mind explaining?

Anyways, what is stopping Itachi slamming a Kunai into her forehead with his fast hands, 1-sec genjutsu stalling, sharingan analysing and speedy edge? I mean Sharingan Kakashi couldn't even follow Itachi's hand speed and was acting on instinct (I believe) to dodge Itachi's attacks back in Part-1, which he is canonically able to do.



FlamingRain said:


> GT, do you think Tsunade can send Itachi's fireball back at him? Seeing what she did to Madara's and all. . .



Come on dude, of course they are going to say yes 

Just because she was able to punch those particular Katon's, does not mean she can randomly punch away every single other Katon variant. This is why we use feats, on-panel showings etc... You can't assume everything and consider it fact then and there.


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## FlamingRain (May 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> Lastly, what do you mean attacking in co-ordinance with Base Ei? I've seen you always post that but never follow it up with a reference. Mind explaining?



I think she's referring to when Tsunade and Ay both attacked Madara and Mu after the same time after being zapped to the field at lightspeed.

High end taijutsu users' striking/reaction speed exceeds their movement speed. Tsunade striking simultaneously with Ay (and managing to get her kick _under_ Madara's block) is just one example of many.

Another would be that _Hirudora_ is the fastest punch in the manga, faster than any of Ay's despite Ay's movement speed being greater than Gai's.



> Anyways, what is stopping Itachi slamming a Kunai into her forehead with his fast hands, 1-sec genjutsu stalling, sharingan analysing and speedy edge? I mean Sharingan Kakashi couldn't even follow Itachi's hand speed and was acting on instinct (I believe) to dodge Itachi's attacks back in Part-1, which he is canonically able to do.



I thought that was because of Itachi's hand _seal_ speed, which would be harder to follow than Itachi actively striking someone.

And wasn't part of that because of Itachi prepping things while his hands were still in his sleeves? Or could that have just been the anime? 



> Just because she was able to punch those particular Katon's, does not mean she can randomly punch away every single other Katon variant. This is why we use feats, on-panel showings etc... You can't assume everything and consider it fact then and there.



I know she wouldn't punch away any Katon variant. But Itachi's fireball is more "solid" than the one Sasuke used against Kakashi, for example, and it explodes on contact- like the technique Madara used is supposed to.

An example of a Katon she couldn't punch away would be the one Madara used on the trees after knocking the Kage down, because it wasn't being manipulated into any solid looking shape.

I was just asking how she saw it.


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## Jad (May 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I think she's referring to when Tsunade and Ay both attacked Madara and Mu after the same time after being zapped to the field at lightspeed.
> 
> High end taijutsu users' striking/reaction speed exceeds their movement speed. Tsunade striking simultaneously with Ay (and managing to get her kick _under_ Madara's block) is just one example of many.
> 
> Another would be that _Hirudora_ is the fastest punch in the manga, faster than any of Ay's despite Ay's movement speed being greater than Gai's.



Ei's striking speed isn't that great. He got intercepted by Suigetsu when striking Sasuke at point blank, and was intercepted by Base Bee when striking Naruto at point blank. Sort of the reason why Ei's main attacking style is coupled with his movement speed.



> I thought that was because of Itachi's hand _seal_ speed, which would be harder to follow than Itachi actively striking someone.
> 
> And wasn't part of that because of Itachi prepping things while his hands were still in his sleeves? Or could that have just been the anime?



I don't know man, his hands look pretty quick here. Sasuke had to resort to summoning Kunai's to keep up with Itachi.



> I know she wouldn't punch away any Katon variant. But *Itachi's fireball is more "solid"* than the one Sasuke used against Kakashi, for example, *and it explodes on contact*- like the technique Madara used is supposed to.
> 
> An example of a Katon she couldn't punch away would be the one Madara used on the trees after knocking the Kage down, because it wasn't being manipulated into any solid looking shape.
> 
> I was just asking how she saw it.



The first bolded part, please explain. The second bolded part, never seen his Katon explode.


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## FlamingRain (May 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> Ei's striking speed isn't that great. He got intercepted by Suigetsu when striking Sasuke at point blank, and was intercepted by Base Bee when striking Naruto at point blank. Sort of the reason why Ei's main attacking style is coupled with his movement speed.



It's got to be something special if it can also catch Killer Bee off guard without a running start, and send Mu flying when Mu was the only one of the Edo Kages to react to Gaara's sand trying to grab him.



> I don't know man, his hands look pretty quick here. Sasuke had to resort to summoning Kunai's to keep up with Itachi.



I'm certain TenTen could have replicated that feat, given the fight with Temari seemed to be over as soon as it started but there were loads of weapons scattered all over the floor.



> The first bolded part, please explain. The second bolded part, never seen his Katon explode.



Well. . .Itachi's seems as if it's been compressed into an actual sphere here.

Jiraiya's, Sasuke's, and Madara's normal katons just look like big waves here.

So Tsunade might be able to knock away the first for the same reason she knocked away Madara's dragons, because it's. . .idk how to word it. . ."harder"? Tangible?

The other ones her hand could just go through it and not help much.

We see that Itachi's explodes here here.


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## Jad (May 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> It's got to be something special if it can also *catch Killer Bee off guard* without a running start, and send Mu flying when Mu was the only one of the Edo Kages to react to Gaara's sand trying to grab him.



The bolded, what do you mean? As for catching Muu off guard, wasn't he under Kabuto's control at the time whereas when he dodged Gaara's sand he wasn't?



> I'm certain TenTen could have replicated that feat, given the fight with Temari seemed to be over as soon as it started but there were loads of weapons scattered all over the floor.



Who knows. The scroll may have spammed the attacks, not Tenten.



> Well. . .Itachi's seems as if it's been compressed into an actual sphere shock.
> 
> Jiraiya's, Sasuke's, and Madara's normal katons just look like big waves shock.
> 
> ...



Just because it has a spherical shape, doesn't mean it's solid. But the scan below shows me it's solid anyways, considering it was cracking the ground beneath it. If you want to go with Databook explanation of the Katon though, it says _"The massive flame engulfs and vaporizes everything!!"_. 



> We see that Itachi's explodes here shock.



Itachi's Katon didn't explode...there wasn't even a "Boom" or anything. As you can see, it was just moving across the ground.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> Ei's striking speed isn't that great. He got intercepted by Suigetsu when striking Sasuke at point blank, and was intercepted by Base Bee when striking Naruto at point blank. Sort of the reason why Ei's main attacking style is coupled with his movement speed.



Suigetsu was never noted to be a speedster, where as even _base_ Ei was noted to be very quick [1] Suigetsu's interception feat is probably an inconsistency, especially since Ei had been pumped up into his _V1 form_ during that feat. Arguing that a V1 Ei's striking speed _isn't that great _ holds even less validity since Ei is the fastest moving character in the entire manga after Naruto.

What FlamingRain said is correct also - for Muu to be outright blitzed by base Ei despite being able to react to Gaara and Onoki, means he's pretty fast even in Base.



> you listed the 'sharingan' as if it was something that would drain his stamina. Itachi is an Uchiha, Kakashi is not, that's why it's a problem for him.



Fighting a prolonged fight with the sharingan active would definitely drain his chakra reserves since using the sharingan uses chakra. Granted Itachi is an Uchiha and wouldn't be effected to the same extent that Kakashi is, but that doesn't mean his stamina doesn't suffer at all. 



> Secondly, "register the movements of foes", that scan, what use does it have? Can you explain that in more detail, sort of looks like you just randomly slapped a scan and added your own words to it.



Actually, that scan was an error. I meant to show _this one_. _This one_ works too. Being able to follow the speed of foes faster than her means that in the event that Itachi throws fast attacks at her she won't be blitzed; where blitzing is throwing an attack so fast that the recipient has no time to react at all, Tsunade can see the attack coming and at least block or move her body enough to prevent a critical hit. 



> Anyways, what is stopping Itachi slamming a Kunai into her forehead with his fast hands, 1-sec genjutsu stalling, sharingan analysing and speedy edge? I mean Sharingan Kakashi couldn't even follow Itachi's hand speed and was acting on instinct (I believe) to dodge Itachi's attacks back in Part-1, which he is canonically able to do.



There are perfect explanations to all of your queries in my OP, if you read it. ​​


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## Jad (May 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Suigetsu was never noted to be a speedster, where as even _base_ Ei was noted to be very quick [1] Suigetsu's interception feat *is probably an inconsistency*, especially since Ei had been pumped up into his _V1 form_ during that feat. Arguing that a V1 Ei's striking speed _isn't that great _ holds even less validity since Ei is the fastest moving character in the entire manga after Naruto.




For the bolded, may I throw that word around as well for scans I don't like? Come on, I was talking about Ei's striking speed, not his movement speed. Movement speed =/= striking speed. He was intercepted by Suigetsu fact. Was intercepted by Base Bee from a distance, fact. Jugo was also even able to put up a guard before Ei punched him successfully. Can't play the 'it was inconsistent' card.



> What FlamingRain said is correct also - for Muu to be outright blitzed by base Ei despite being able to react to Gaara and Onoki, means he's pretty fast even in Base.



I re-looked at the scan, Muu was under Kabuto's control. Muu =/= Kabuto.
guard
guard

He never switches back pretty much.



> Fighting a prolonged fight with the sharingan active would definitely drain his chakra reserves since using the sharingan uses chakra. Granted Itachi is an Uchiha and wouldn't be effected to the same extent that Kakashi is, but that doesn't mean his stamina doesn't suffer at all.



Never been stated that Sharingan takes up chakara from Uchiha's. I know that Byakugan does after a whole day. That's all.



> Actually, that scan was an error. I meant to show _this one_. _This one_ works too. Being able to follow the speed of foes faster than her means that in the event that Itachi throws fast attacks at her she won't be blitzed; where blitzing is throwing an attack so fast that the recipient has no time to react at all, Tsunade can see the attack coming and at least block or move her body enough to prevent a critical hit.



Just because you can see an attack, doesn't mean you can dodge it. Pretty sure Lee covered this in Part-1, and Sasuke against Kyuubi Naruto. Your body has to move faster than the attack to dodge it or react to it in a way that is favorable. I can clearly sit and watch Muhammed Ali box, I can see his hands flying, does that give me the ability to dodge them or block the attacks if I were to fight him?

Plus they weren't moving as fast as you would like to think. To me they were outpacing Base Bee's level of speed and not by much. Which is fast, don't get me wrong.

The second scan you provided...Don't understand it. She was already concerned for Naruto before he even threw his punch, let alone during. Again though, his punches aren't that fast.



> There are perfect explanations to all of your queries in my OP, if you read it.



Not really.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> For the bolded, *may I throw that word around as well for scans I don't like*? Come on, I was talking about Ei's striking speed, not his movement speed. Movement speed =/= striking speed. He was intercepted by Suigetsu fact. Was intercepted by Base Bee from a distance, fact. Jugo was also even able to put up a guard before Ei punched him successfully. Can't play the 'it was inconsistent' card.



No, you may not  

If there's no reason to assume a feat is inconsistent or stupid, then use it. However in this case there is reason to believe that that feat was an inconsistency since V1 Ei's striking speed is such that Sasuke had to rely on his sharingan to _evade_ his attacks, and yet Suigetsu, who was never revered for his speed, was able to perform a significantly more impressive feat. Jugo was in his CS2 form where he is significantly faster, and even then all he could manage was to block - what does that imply? He couldn't even evade or jump out of the way, and yet Suigetsu apparently jumps a large distance, throws himself in front of Raikage and puts his sword in front of Sasuke whenever he's throwing a strike from an even closer distance? Yeh, its just an inaccurate interception feat.



> I re-looked at the scan, Muu was under Kabuto's control. Muu =/= Kabuto.
> _evade_
> _evade_
> 
> He never switches back pretty much.



Kabuto controlled all of his Edo Tensei, the only difference is he used Muu to speak through. 



> Never been stated that Sharingan takes up chakara from Uchiha's. I know that Byakugan does after a whole day. That's all.



Yes it has. Itachi was absolutely exhausted after using Tsukuyomi, and even Kakashi noted the chakra exhaustion Sasuke would go through if he used Raikiri and sharingan at the same time continually [1] 



> Just because you can see an attack, *doesn't mean you can dodge it*. Pretty sure Lee covered this in Part-1, and Sasuke against Kyuubi Naruto. Your body has to move faster than the attack to dodge it or react to it in a way that is favorable. I can clearly sit and watch Muhammed Ali box, I can see his hands flying, does that give me the ability to dodge them or block the attacks if I were to fight him?



Never did I state that Tsunade could dodge his attacks, read what I _actually_ said. You could probably block one of Muhammed Ali's blows if you were able to see it coming and physically strong enough, and hey, Tsunade is both of those things when it comes to Itachi.



> Plus they weren't moving as fast as you would like to think. To me they were outpacing Base Bee's level of speed and not by much. Which is fast, don't get me wrong.



Not far off Itachi's speed level at all.



> The second scan you provided...Don't understand it. She was already concerned for Naruto before he even threw his punch, let alone during. Again though, his punches aren't that fast.



Ei throws a punch. Tsunade moves forward and shouts " Wait! ". She had time to react. 



> Not really.



There are plenty of explanations in it for why genjutsu wouldn't work and for why his speed isn't enough to put her down. There are entire paragraphs on it. . .​​


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## BringerOfCarnage (May 23, 2013)

Assuming that decapitation or a kunai to the brain successfully kills Tsunade, I'm going to give it to Itachi mid-high diff.

How does Itachi intend to achieve this, you ask?

*Genjutsu*
Now it's pretty well established that Itachi's normal Sharingan genjutsus are capable of affecting Sannin level shinobi (Orochimaru falling under the paralysis illusion pretty quickly).
Yes, I know that Orochimaru was attempting to break it, but it did give Itachi enough time to hack his hand off.

Anyway, even assuming that Tsunade can break illusions faster than Orochimaru, chances are that Itachi is going to opt for a subtle genjutsu, like the ones he used against Deidara and Bee, and a more diluted version on Naruto (Gaara Rescue arc).

The advantage of such an illusion is that it's not going to be detected unless Tsunade is checking for it. Noting the effects on Deidara and Bee, and also Itachi's genjutsu hype, it's safe to assume that it shall not be detected at the time of application.

Yes, Tsunade will probably be able to figure out whether or not she is under an illusion, but it'll definitely take her time and concentration. If I'm not mistaken, she'll have to observe the surroundings, and probably the pattern of her own chakra. 
Unfortunately for Tsunade, her fighting style causes enormous disruptions in both, so unless she ceases to attack and ignores Itachi for a few moments, she's not going to detect the presence of a genjutsu until it's too late (10 seconds is more than enough time)

There's also the added pressure of the mind games Itachi could play concerning illusions. Not only can he layer multiple genjutsus, hence making it very difficult for Tsunade to detect and break all of them, but if the situation calls for it, he can simply _not_ cast one for the first few minutes, and let Tsunade's paranoia fester (though this does increase the chance of Tsunade landing a hit, which would pretty much be fatal)

Finally, through the "_every jutsu has a weakness_" thinking, Itachi could probably figure out a weakness in Byakugou.

In any case, it won't be an easy victory, and Itachi will have to bring his A-game as far as genjutsus and strategy are concerned, but he'll pull through.


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## Kennypow (Dec 1, 2013)

Itachi low-no difficulty


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## Thunder (Dec 1, 2013)

You revived a great thread. You should feel proud.


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## Mercurial (Dec 1, 2013)

Itachi is tiers faster and more skilled in CQC and general in everything about the fighting than Tsunade is, he has Sharingan precog and could troll as he wishes with genjutsu and Karasu Bunshin / Kage Bunshin etc executing ninjutsu with top notch handseal speed. He would easily put Tsunade in a genjutsu, or blitz / outskill her and put a kunai between her eyes.


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 1, 2013)

BringerOfCarnage said:


> Assuming that decapitation or a kunai to the brain successfully kills Tsunade, I'm going to give it to Itachi mid-high diff.
> 
> How does Itachi intend to achieve this, you ask?
> 
> ...



Firstly, it has already been addressed that Katsuyu will be able to break Tsunade out of Itachi's genjustsu in the unlikely instance that she falls under it. Katsuyu can do this indefinitely, however, if Itachi repeatedly attempts this, it will ultimately exhaust him. 

Secondly, Orochimaru was careless and arrogant when he confronted Itachi, not at all cautious about getting caught in a genjustu. He was also preparing to use Fushi Tensei, leaving him more vulnerable.



> Anyway, even assuming that Tsunade can break illusions faster than Orochimaru, chances are that Itachi is going to opt for a subtle genjutsu, like the ones he used against Deidara and Bee, and a more diluted version on Naruto (Gaara Rescue arc).
> 
> The advantage of such an illusion is that it's not going to be detected unless Tsunade is checking for it. Noting the effects on Deidara and Bee, and also Itachi's genjutsu hype, it's safe to assume that it shall not be detected at the time of application.
> 
> ...



I don't think Katsuyu will just stand there and watch Tsunade get stabbed in the head. 



> There's also the added pressure of the mind games Itachi could play concerning illusions. Not only can he layer multiple genjutsus, hence making it very difficult for Tsunade to detect and break all of them, but if the situation calls for it, he can simply _not_ cast one for the first few minutes, and let Tsunade's paranoia fester (though this does increase the chance of Tsunade landing a hit, which would pretty much be fatal)



Why would Tsunade be under the genjustu in the first place? As previously stated Tsunade was able to fight 25 madara clones which were fully capable and wiling to use genjutsu if the opportunity presented itself. Yet this didn't happen,



> Finally, through the "_every jutsu has a weakness_" thinking, Itachi could probably figure out a weakness in Byakugou.



When Itachi does figure out Byakugō no Jutsu's weakness he would realise that he would need to decapitate Tsunade to kill her. Base Itachi does not have the fire power to do this with ease. He does not have a jutsu in his arsenal that can decapitate her from a distance in base. This would mean that he would need to engage her in CQC at which point we will get obliterated. 

Knowledge does not automatically equate to execution.


It has already been stated previously how she would land a hit, despite the speed gap. She can also utilise her strength to make it difficult for him to evade. For example, she can click her heel and create a fissure, making him lose his grounding. It must also be noted that she does not have to land a direct hit to severely injure Itachi. For example, she can utilize her chakra scalpels to cut his muscles. 



> In any case, it won't be an easy victory, and Itachi will have to bring his A-game as far as genjutsus and strategy are concerned, but he'll pull through.



Itachi cannot defeat any of the Sannin without his full arsenal.


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## kyla1718 (Dec 1, 2013)

Unrestricted Itachi destroys Tsunade, but Base Itachi vs unrestricted Tsunade sets him up for failure. 

Both parties only have manga knowledge, which puts BASE Itachi at a disadvantage. He may move quicker then Tsunade, and because of it assume he can end it quickly, but he is not aware of her self healing abilities such as Bak, or 100 healings. When he thinks he has ended it and attacks hand to hand combat he gets crushed.

I feel like if base Itachi had FULL knowledge on Tsunade he could win with high difficulty because he would know better than to get in range of Tsunade at ANY point in the battle, but only having manga knowledge on her puts him at a huge disadvantage, because chances are he will make the mistake of engaging her hand to hand, also to be noted, while Itachi may be faster than Tsunade she is by no means slow. Her debut of 100 healings has only been recently witnessed by the other 4 kage.  

Itachi knows nothing about Katysu. Itachi has everything to lose. It will only take one mistake on his part to cost him his life, whereas Tsunade has the luxury of making mistakes and still living. Her healing feats, stamina feats, and ability to perform despite having two susanno blades sticking through her are matched by no one. 

I think it is silly that people think BASE Itachi can defeat the Hokage/Legendary Sannin. Yes Itachi unrestricted would lay her flat. I have noticed battle dome highly OVER estimates Itachi and the uchihas while Highly UNDER estimating Tsunade. Yes I recognize Tsunade is not in the same playing field as unrestricted Itachi and the current power houses of the manga, but she is by no means a weakling................


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## fior fior (Dec 1, 2013)

> Restrictions: MS
> Knowledge: Manga




This isn't even a fight. Tsunade completely destroys him.


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## Ersa (Dec 1, 2013)

My stance on this fight has not changed.

I'm doubtful on how much Tsunade would be willing to summon Katsuyu 1v1, the only times she's done it is to combat someone else's boss summon or for support. It didn't come out vs Kabuto nor Madara. Also the location has water and is Konoha so it might make her more reluctant to summon her boss summon in fear of collateral damage to her village.

If Tsunade summons Katsuyu she can probably take this high difficulty with her support for genjutsu, however if she doesn't Itachi eventually outmaneuvers, clone-feints and puts her under Sharingan genjutsu. Since he has shown the capacity to control people, he can force her to disable regeneration then kunai to the brain. So yeah this match hinges on Katsuyu's support and whether Tsunade brings it out before it's too late.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> I'm doubtful on how much Tsunade would be willing to summon Katsuyu 1v1, the only times she's done it is to combat someone else's boss summon or for support.



Tsunade was _the instigator_ of the summoning stage of the Sannin's battle; Orochimaru and Kabuto brought out Manda _in response to *her*_ starting to summon. And of course, Katsuyu can always support Tsunade in combat whether she's in a one-on-one fight or not.



> It didn't come out vs Kabuto nor Madara. Also the location has water and is Konoha so it might make her more reluctant to summon her boss summon in fear of collateral damage to her village.



She had hemophobia against Kabuto. Remember summoning requires you to bite your thumb to draw blood, while she froze when Orochimaru bit his finger in their initial reunion. In the Five Kage vs. Madara battle Tsunade already had healing covered until she reached the point of going on the offensive and Katsuyu couldn't get through _Susano'o_ but was susceptible to Mokuton rape, so there would have been no logic in wasting Chakra summoning her there.

Plus Tsunade can destroy Konoha without hesitation. Yamato can rebuild it later.


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## Ersa (Dec 1, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade was _the instigator_ of the summoning stage of the Sannin's battle; Orochimaru and Kabuto brought out Manda _in response to *her*_ starting to summon. And of course, Katsuyu can always support Tsunade in combat whether she's in a one-on-one fight or not.


Damn it, you're right. Although she did need Katsuyu to take care of Naruto but I'll grant you this point.



> She had hemophobia against Kabuto. Remember summoning requires you to bite your thumb to draw blood, while she froze when Orochimaru bit his finger in their initial reunion. In the Five Kage vs. Madara battle Tsunade already had healing covered until she reached the point of going on the offensive and Katsuyu couldn't get through _Susano'o_ but was susceptible to Mokuton rape, so there would have been no logic in wasting Chakra summoning her there.
> 
> Plus Tsunade can destroy Konoha without hesitation. Yamato can rebuild it later.


Conceded on the hemophobia part too 

Well I still don't think she'd want to wreck part of Konoha, if she absolutely had to then I have no doubt she would but I question if her opening move would be Katsuyu in the middle of her village. If Itachi rushes her with _Shunshin _she might opt for regeneration and CQC (her forte).

So yeah I feel it's a matter of whether Itachi can catch her in genjutsu before she summons the slug. I'd favour Tsunade honestly; the distance is a huge advantage for her. If it was 15-10m I'd probably say Itachi could interrupt the summoning and clone feint her in CQC for genjutsu.


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## Bonly (Dec 1, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Remember summoning requires you to bite your thumb to draw blood



Actually this isn't outright true, it just seems that most people chose to do this for whatever the reason they have. Hanzo only made a handsign and then summoned Ibuse(at least I think that's how you spell it's name). He didn't take off his mask to bit his thumb to draw some blood. We also see Nagato using Animal path clap his hands to bring out a summoning and he didn't need to draw any blood. From the same fight we see Jiraiya clap his hands to bring out GamaKen to the battle field. Itachi also only made a handsign when he went to summon some crows without bringing out some blood. So people can use the summoning jutsu without drawing some blood.


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 1, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade was _the instigator_ of the summoning stage of the Sannin's battle; Orochimaru and Kabuto brought out Manda _in response to *her*_ starting to summon. And of course, Katsuyu can always support Tsunade in combat whether she's in a one-on-one fight or not.
> 
> She had hemophobia against Kabuto. Remember summoning requires you to bite your thumb to draw blood, while she froze when Orochimaru bit his finger in their initial reunion. In the Five Kage vs. Madara battle Tsunade already had healing covered until she reached the point of going on the offensive and Katsuyu couldn't get through _Susano'o_ but was susceptible to Mokuton rape, so there would have been no logic in wasting Chakra summoning her there.
> 
> Plus Tsunade can destroy Konoha without hesitation. Yamato can rebuild it later.



You beat me to it!
Well except the destroying Konoha part 



> So yeah I feel it's a matter of whether Itachi can catch her in genjutsu before she summons the slug. I'd favour Tsunade honestly; the distance is a huge advantage for her. If it was 15-10m I'd probably say Itachi could interrupt the summoning and clone feint her in CQC for genjutsu.



I still find it unlikely that Tsunade will be caught by genjutsu. She's extremely perceptive of her environment and does not necessarily need to see her opponents to graze them. For example, she was able to hear the change in pace of Orochimaru's heartbeat in Part 1 prior the Sannin Showdown, and leap in the air even before or immediately coinciding Kabuto emerging from the underneath her. 

Note: this was when she was still rusty from her 2 decade hiatus.

She is also telepathically linked to Katsuyu, which means that she can use her as her eyes or as a sensor.


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