# Itachi takes on all the Kage



## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2013)

I know the title sounds bad, but it isn't really.

This is one-on-one with full restoration for each match, guys. Chill.

*Location:* Bridge in the Land of Iron (Sasuke vs. Danzou)
*Distance:* 5m
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Itachi is alive with good health and eyesight.
-Itachi can summon Dat Crow, but cannot use Kotoamatsukami.
-All the Kage are alive.

Itachi fights:

Hashirama
Tobirama
Hiruzen (old)
Minato
Tsunade
Sandaime Kazekage
Gaara's Dad
Gaara
Muu
Oonoki
Trollkage
Yagura
Mei
Sandaime Raikage
A

Who does he beat? Who beats him? A little explanation for each would be appreciated.


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## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 7, 2013)

I'd prefer to see him face the Gaikage Good Sir


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## tanman (Jul 7, 2013)

Full knowledge in-character? That's very much to Itachi's disadvantage.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 7, 2013)

Hashirama - Gets brutally stomped
Tobirama - Not enough feats but imo hes stronger then Itachi but not by much
Hiruzen (old) - Itachi stomps
Minato - Minato wins
Tsunade - Itachi stomps
Sandaime Kazekage - Itachi stomps
Gaara's Dad - Itachi stomps
Gaara - Not as easy as one thinks but Itachi comes out the victor
Muu - I honestly think muu can win this if played right
Oonoki - Itachi wins
Trollkage -  Don't think Trollkages genjutsu is good enough to beat Itachi at his own game but how does itachi stop steam imp?
Yagura - Itachi stomps
Mei _ Itachi stomps
Sandaime Raikage _- Itachi stomps
A - Itachi wins eventually


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2013)

> [=Nikushimi;47773496]
> 
> Itachi fights:
> 
> Hashirama


Hashi stomp. 


> Tobirama


Tobi stomps. 


> Hiruzen (old)


Itachi wins. 


> Minato


Minato stomps. 


> Tsunade


it can go either way.


> Sandaime Kazekage
> Gaara's Dad


Itachi wins. 


> Gaara
> Muu
> Oonoki


Itachi loses. 





> Trollkage
> Yagura
> Mei
> Sandaime Raikage
> A


Itachi loses against most of them, and he can win against Yagura
and his battle with Mei depends if she used her mist, she'll win. If not she loses.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 7, 2013)

Hashirama: I know I'm in th extreme minority but I took being a "better" ninja as him believing Itachi could somehow defeat him in combat, We never really saw Madara use anything outside of Susanoo or Kyuubi which Hashirama the ability to control, Madara's Susanoo was stronger than Itachi's but Itachi has the legendary items which should be capable of sealing Hashirama if it connects, see Madara in my opinon is an easy matchup for Hashirama because he's unintelligent in battle and he mainly relies on Kurama which Hashirama's powers are able to nullify ,

What could Hashirama do to counter Itachi's MS genjutsu he must be susceptible as Madara seemed to fool him with a lower class genjutsu "we know it's not Iznagi Becuase he had 
both eyes for Rinnegan"


He also hasn't shown what he would do if hit by amaterasu, I think Itachi is in another league when it comes to battle tactics and genius , and seeing as he has full Knoweldge he'll get the drop on Hashirama and defeat him with extreme difficulty.


Itachi defeats Tobirama just based off how the characters have been presented

Itachi defeats Old Hiruzen


Minato is basically a more powerful version of Itachi , Itachi loses


The rest of them he defeats

To me the only characters I can see defeating Itachi with full knowledge 


Are Minato, Naruto, EMS Sasuke(potentially), Rinnegan Madara, and Rinnegan Obito, and maybe Prime Hiruzen

Itachi would find a way to defeat the rest of the characters in the manga


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 7, 2013)

He takes them all out bar Hashirama, who curbstomps him.


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## ImSerious (Jul 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama
> Tobirama
> Minato



He beats them all except these 3.


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## Pein (Jul 7, 2013)

*Hashirama* Hashi wrecks Itachi, its not even a question. 
Tobirama, Itachi takes it, don't have enough feats from him Tobirama to give itach a good fight. 
Hiruzen (old) same as above. 
Minato Minato takes this, Itachi isn't tagging him with totsuka and once his susanoo runs out, Minato slits his throat. 
Tsunade, ltachi takes this. 
Sandaime Kazekage, Itachi takes it
Gaara's Dad, Itachi takes it
Gaara, Garra wins, he can deal with amaterasu and could just rip itachi out of susanoo. 
Muu, atomizes itachi
Oonoki, atomizes itachi
Trollkage, Itachi defeats him. 
Yagura, I doubt susanoo can deal with Bijuudamas, Itachi probably takes it though. 
Mei, itachi wins
Sandaime Raikage lights him on fire with itachi. 
A, Itachi loses the same way he did against minato for me, he can't tag A with amaterasu or totsuka so itachi gets dusted once his susanoo is down.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 7, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hashirama: I know I'm in th extreme minority but I took being a "better" ninja as him believing Itachi could somehow defeat him in combat



How is this even remotely _possible_ given that Hashirama has never, ever, seen Itachi in his life much less be qualified to judge his strengths and compare them to this own? 

Even if Hashirama did 'believe' that, it wouldn't be a valid statement in any shape or form.



> but Itachi has the legendary items which should be capable of sealing Hashirama if it connects,



Um, right. Kinda hard to connect with Hashirama considering he can summon a giant wooden statue *several kilometres tall*, upon which he stands on, no? 



> see Madara in my opinon is an easy matchup for Hashirama because *he's unintelligent in battle *and he mainly relies on Kurama which Hashirama's powers are able to nullify ,



He is? He was quite smart in protecting the fox from its own Tailed Beast Bomb using Perfect Susano'o.



> What could Hashirama do to counter Itachi's MS genjutsu he must be susceptible as Madara *seemed to fool him with a lower class genjutsu *"we know it's not Iznagi Becuase he had
> both eyes for Rinnegan"



This was confirmed? Besides, what I think you're referring to is that panel of Madara's eye focused on Hashirama in this page?

What leads you to believe that it's a lower-class genjutsu than Itachi's own? Note that Madara was using his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan in that panel; it could very well be much more powerful than Itachi's calibur.



> and seeing as he has full Knoweldge he'll get the drop on Hashirama and defeat him with extreme difficulty.



? Both have full knowledge. Hashirama claps his hands together and Wood Style: Laughing Buddha Jutsu emerges from right under Itachi and pulverizes the Uchiha before he can even begin to charge his Amaterasu.



> Itachi defeats Tobirama just based off how the characters have been presented



Pray tell, how exactly have the characters been presented? I see Tobirama being powerful enough to make the entire Team Hebi, including Sasuke, shit their pants by flexing one finger, on the other hand I see Sasuke having surpassed Itachi eons ago with his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. 



> Itachi would find a way to defeat the rest of the characters in the manga



This is the laziest argument I've ever heard in my life.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2013)

This thread is a riot.

So far, it has everything from Itachi beating Hashirama to Itachi losing to Mei. From one extreme all the way to the other. 



tanman said:


> Full knowledge in-character? That's very much to Itachi's disadvantage.



No it isn't; it applies to everyone. That means Itachi gets full knowledge as well. In-character mindset isn't even a disadvantage for anyone here because they are all highly-experienced, highly-intelligent shinobi and Itachi is among the best even in this class.



Complete_Ownage said:


> Gaara's Dad - Itachi stomps
> Gaara - Not as easy as one thinks but Itachi comes out the victor





How does Itachi stomp Gaara's dad if Gaara is "not as easy as one thinks"?

They have like the same exact abilities; Gaara is just slightly better.



> Trollkage -  Don't think Trollkages genjutsu is good enough to beat Itachi at his own game but how does itachi stop steam imp?



Amaterasu's heat spread over the entire battlefield might mess-up Jokey Boy's state change.

Other than that, I'd think defeating the Mizukage would stop the Jutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2013)

Someone is also going to have to explain to be how the fuck Oonoki is supposed to beat Itachi.

It's not like with Muu, where you construct something resembling an argument based on the possibility that Itachi may not be able to see him (Despite having Sharingan? Yeah, okay.); there is literally nothing stopping Itachi from locking onto Oonoki, dodging his Jinton, and filling him with kunai or whatever the fuck else he decides to use.

By the way, Mei is not beating Itachi at a 5m distance. Mist? She won't even get a chance to use it, to say nothing of the poor likelihood of it doing anything to impede Itachi's ability to kill her in the slightest.


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## Jagger (Jul 7, 2013)

Itachi beating Hashirama with full intel? Well, that's hilarious.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2013)

Hashirama - Itachi loses. Hashirama's raw power is beyond Itachi. Full knowledge removes any possiblity of Tsukiyomi GG which is probably Itachi's only chance here.

Tobirama- Lacks feats. Itachi casually destroys him. 

Hiruzen (old) - Itachi probably wouldn't need Ms here. Easy win.

Minato - Can go eitherway. Hard to call this one. Especially with full knowledge. Neither of them are prone to making mistakes, so I can't imagine who'll fuck up first.

Tsunade - Itachi wins easy. MS is probably needed with Tsunade's recent regeneration feats.


Sandaime Kazekage - Hmm, with what he has shown so far, Itachi dances around him and floors him with a punch.

Gaara's Dad -  Without favorable terrain this guy won't cause much trouble.

Gaara - Same as above. Probably puts up a better fight though.

Muu - The difficulty depends on whether Sharingan ca see through his invisibly or not. IF it does, then Muu would be dispatched fairly easily. Otherwise, Itachi would probably have to work for it. But still, he is open to counter attacks.

Oonoki - This is more or less the same fight as above minus the invisibility. Getting close to Itachi would be suicide so the weight altering technique won't even  be used. Itachi with mid diff.

Trollkage - Itachi sees through his genjutsu with sharingan and then proceeds to beat the crap out of him. Low difficulty.

Yagura - I don't remember his abilities. Itachi'd probably just blitz him.

Mei - Easiest win of Itachi's life. Mei is probably the weakest Kage and Itachi wouldn't rely much on MS. Maybe ribcage susano'O here and there to protect himself from acid mist.

Sandaime Raikage - Forces Itachi to use Amaterasu, with the assumption that he somehow manages to get around Tsukiyomi.

A - Itachi'd need Susano'o to protect himself from V2 blitz. But after that the fight goes downhill for A. He can't get through Susano'o and he can't dodge Itachi's onslaught forever. Itachi mid diff.



ImSerious said:


> He beats them all except these 3.



Tobirama ? based on what ?


As far as their display goes, Itachi wouldn't even need MS.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2013)

Am I the only one who thinks a Kage Bunshin feint followed by a blindside attack with MS would be Itachi's best shot at defeating A? 

A isn't a sensor-type and Itachi can easily block LOS long enough to swap out with a fake; as soon as A goes to attack that, he gets hit from behind with Amaterasu or the Totsuka no Tsurugi. Can't dodge what you can't see, and Itachi has proven to be more intelligent/level-headed in battle than the Raikage by leaps and bounds.

Gfg.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A - Itachi'd need Susano'o to protect himself from V2 blitz. But after that the fight goes downhill for A. He can't get through Susano'o and *he can't dodge Itachi's onslaught forever*. Itachi mid diff.



Why not? He has far more stamina than Itachi and can just continue whaling away at Susano'o while Itachi exhausts himself constantly in attempting to tag him. Once the Uchiha's out of chakra, A beheads him with Lightning Horizontal Chop.

EDIT: Not saying that he can't, but do we have any proof that Itachi can react to someone as fast as A, who casually blitzed Sasuke with the Mangekyo Sharingan?


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## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Why not? He has far more stamina than Itachi and can just continue whaling away at Susano'o while Itachi exhausts himself constantly in attempting to tag him. Once the Uchiha's out of chakra, A beheads him with Lightning Horizontal Chop.
> 
> EDIT: Not saying that he can't, but do we have any proof that Itachi can react to someone as fast as A, who casually blitzed Sasuke with the Mangekyo Sharingan?



Itachi demonstrated significantly better reaction time than Sasuke when the brothers were faced with Kabuto's Muki Tensei, when Itachi protected Sasuke with Susano'o before Sasuke could protect himself (or Itachi). We saw this again with Kabuto's basic Suiton Ninjutsu; Itachi dodged, Sasuke got hit, and then Itachi even pre-empted Kabuto with his own Suiton the next time.

And besides that, Sasuke was able to defend from A with Susano'o. Whether or not Itachi can react to A is one thing, but protecting himself should be no sweat if his little bro and Madara could do it.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Am I the only one who thinks a Kage Bunshin feint followed by a blindside attack with MS would be Itachi's best shot at defeating A?
> 
> A isn't a sensor-type and Itachi can easily block LOS long enough to swap out with a fake; as soon as A goes to attack that, he gets hit from behind with Amaterasu or the Totsuka no Tsurugi. Can't dodge what you can't see, and Itachi has proven to be more intelligent/level-headed in battle than the Raikage by leaps and bounds.
> 
> Gfg.



A's not breaking through anything above the Susano'o rib cage on his own, so Itachi has plenty of time to outsmart him and break him in Tsukuyomi or hit him with ninjutsu. Plus since the only time Itachi would even need to activate Susano'o is in the brief instances where A is using his v2 shunshin. 

Most of the forum seems to forget what a shunshin is and assumes A is just going to perpetually move at v2 speeds for twenty minutes until Itachi dies.

I'd say Itachi defeats any Kage except for Hashirama. Minato's the second strongest Kage, but I still dont' think he would beat Itachi if both individuals were alive, although that is debatable.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi demonstrated significantly better reaction time than Sasuke when the brothers were faced with Kabuto's Muki Tensei, when Itachi protected Sasuke with Susano'o before Sasuke could protect himself (or Itachi). We saw this again with Kabuto's basic Suiton Ninjutsu; Itachi dodged, Sasuke got hit, and then Itachi even pre-empted Kabuto with his own Suiton the next time.



Good point. Then as it stands, A cannot blitz Itachi as the former's best speed feat was escaping Sasuke's reactions.



> And besides that, Sasuke was able to defend from A with Susano'o. Whether or not Itachi can react to A is one thing, but protecting himself should be no sweat if his little bro and Madara could do it.



Sasuke managed to defend himself using Blaze Release to enhance his Susano'o ribcage. He knew that using it would make A reconsider charging in, and perhaps even slow him down long enough for Sasuke to see him again, but knowing A's bloodlust, he struck the chakra construct anyways.

Itachi doesn't have such mastery of Amaterasu. He can utilize all levels of Susano'o, but unfortunately, none of his attacks are nailing Raikage so long as he continues dodging with his top-speed. He's going to have to keep up at least the ribcage to avoid being pummeled into paste, and as we've seen with Mangekyo Sharingan users, Susano'o takes an *enormous* toll.

Which is why I see A outlasting Itachi and eventually winning.


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## Vice (Jul 7, 2013)

Tobirama has no feats? Hasn't he already casually beaten an MS user?


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## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2013)

Vice said:


> Tobirama has no feats? Hasn't he already casually beaten an MS user?



Everything except the finishing blow was off-panel.

And that MS user evidently didn't have or just wasn't using Susano'o.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Why not? He has far more stamina than Itachi and can just continue whaling away at Susano'o while Itachi exhausts himself constantly in attempting to tag him. Once the Uchiha's out of chakra, A beheads him with Lightning Horizontal Chop.




A needs to be on the move constantly to avoid all of Itachi's moveset, in which case he won't be able to attack. Once he does, his momentum will come to an halt, which will give Itachi the opportunity to counter attack.



> EDIT: Not saying that he can't, but do we have any proof that Itachi can react to someone as fast as A, who casually blitzed Sasuke with the Mangekyo Sharingan?


Itachi is faster than Sasuke.
Also Sasuke was able to react with his Enton activation.



Vice said:


> Tobirama has no feats? Hasn't he already casually beaten an MS user?



He defeated a featless Ms user after an off panel battle.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 7, 2013)

Vice said:


> Tobirama has no feats? Hasn't he already casually beaten an MS user?



We don't know the context of the battle, if Izuna even had similar Mangekyō jutsu, or if he had any Mangekyō jutsu. Sasuke didn't have any actual Mangekyō jutsu until after his third fist-bump with death, courtesy of Killer Bee. 

So if you took the below image and concluded that Killer Bee casually beat a Mangekyō user comparable to Itachi, you'd be mistaken, because Killer Bee tricked Sasuke (with no Mangekyō jutsu) there. He didn't overwhelm him.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 7, 2013)

What is your problem. You put people he could obviously defeat(not all of them but most).


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *A needs to be on the move constantly to avoid all of Itachi's moveset, in which case he won't be able to attack. *Once he does, his momentum will come to an halt, which will give Itachi the opportunity to counter attack.



Why is that? It's not as if Itachi will be constantly attacking. Amaterasu is the only technique that has a remote chance of even getting near him, and the Uchiha won't be using that more than a few times. In addition to that, the Fourth Raikage doesn't have to stop to attack, throwing a punch or Lightning Horizontal Chop whilst moving is something he's always done.



> Also Sasuke was able to react with his Enton activation.



No, he didn't.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2013)

Kazekage94 said:


> What is your problem. You put people he could obviously defeat(not all of them but most).



All I did was list all of the known Kage.


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## trance (Jul 7, 2013)

Hashirama and Minato are the only ones who beat him no question; Hashirama due to his Mokuton and Minato due to his unmatched speed and sensing abilities. Ei can possibly win if he doesn't go full retard like he did against Sasuke. Mū also has a chance due to his sensing abilities. Everyone else gets beat.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2013)

In case anyone wants to know my opinion:



Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama
> Tobirama
> Hiruzen (old)
> Minato
> ...



Green=Definitely beats Itachi.
Gray=Could go either way.
Red=Definitely loses to Itachi.
Dark Red=You would have to be mental to even consider this a fight.

For the record, I do think Itachi can see Muu with his Sharingan and see through the 2nd Mizukage's mirage Genjutsu with it as well.


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## Jagger (Jul 7, 2013)

Vice said:


> Tobirama has no feats? Hasn't he already casually beaten an MS user?


An MS user with no feats. Go figure. Besides, we're using feats, not hype.


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## Turrin (Jul 7, 2013)

Hashirama - He stomps, really no explanation needed

Tobirama - Tobirama does not have sufficient feats for us to call a victor, however given what we do know about his move-set (KB, FTG, Large Chakra Supply, Sensing, Edo Tensei), the fact that he has full knowledge here, and his general level as a Hokage one has to assume that there is no way Itachi is winning with anything short of extremely high difficulty, if he he is in-fact able to win at all.

Hiruzen (old) - Hiruzen's only option would be to use KB to hold off Itachi's attacks, but in his old state he can only make so many & full knowledge means Itachi is not getting taken off guard by Death God, so Itachi wins for sure. 

Minato - With full knowledge + FTG + KB there is no way Itachi is landing a blow on Minato, at best Itachi could turtle up with Susano'o (assuming Minato can't get around it, something I personally doubt) and than it just becomes a stamina contest, which while we're not 100% sure on Healthy Itachi's stamina levels I still think Minato would probably win as his defense is far less taxing than Itachi's Susano'o. If this is Minato w/ KCM than Itachi stands absolutely no chance.


Tsunade - Tsunade gets done in by Amaterasu or Totsuka Sword, from what she's shown.

Sandaime Kazekage - If the extent of his powers are what Sasori showed than Iron Sand gets tanked with Susano'o and Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi takes him out.

Gaara's Dad - He could be a bitch with full knowledge for Itachi to handle if he just turtles up with a Golden sand orb around him and using Golden sand eye to avoid Genjutsu. The battle comes down to whether Totsuka Sword or Magatama could pierce the gold dust defense, something I don't know.

Gaara - Same as above, but with an even better defense we can expect this to be even harder for Itachi.

Muu - Mu could be a bitch if he just plays to outlast Itachi by staying invisible and forcing Itachi to spam Susano'o, however I don't know if that's IC for Mu or any ninja in this manga. If not than the match basically becomes can Susano'o tank Mu's strongest dust release. If it can than Itachi wins, if not than it's Mu.

Oonoki - Same thing as the Mu scenario it comes down to if Susano'o can tank Onoki's Dust Release, just in Onoki's case his large dust release makes his odds of busting Susano'o better.

Trollkage - Itachi see's through the Genjutsu and proceeds to own him

Yagura -  Comes down to if Sanbi can counter Amaterasu, if Totsuka Sword can seal a Bijuu
Mei, and if Susano'o can tank Sanbi's strongest Bijuu Bomb. No answers to these questions so it's hard to say.

Sandaime Raikage 
A

In the case of both Raikage's while they'd be a bitch to take down with full knowledge, Susano'o can tank their attacks (unless Hell bringer is just that F'd up) and I think eventually Itachi would KB feint or trick them in some way to land Totsuka Sword or Amaterasu.


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## αce (Jul 7, 2013)

> Tobirama has no feats? Hasn't he already casually beaten an MS user?



Don't know what manga you're reading. We only saw the panel of Izuna dying, not the actual fight. Considering that Tobirama and Izuna have fought more than once and have known about each other for several different years, it's clear that Izuna was not a casual win for Tobirama.

Otherwise he would have killed him a long time ago. This post is also seems to be implying that all Mangekyou users are the same strength wise.


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## Vice (Jul 7, 2013)

I read a manga where Tobirama beat an MS user yet somehow doesn't count as a feat.


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## Frawstbite (Jul 7, 2013)

Itachi fights:

Hashirama
Itachi loses. 

Tobirama:
It could go either way. We know for a fact that Tobirama can handle high level Uchiha, and he definitely has experience fighting sharingan users. Avoiding genjutsu should be something that's within his skill set. Hirashingiri plus a clone or two should give him the edge in close quarter. I'd imagine his water techniques can rival Mei's at least, and are so massive that they have the potential to topple Susanoo, this map has a massive amount of water for him to work with. Though the idea that his suitons are that powerful is just speculation.

Hiruzen (old):
Itachi should win. Still waiting on Hiruzen to show us what he can do.

Minato:
I give this to Minato. Taijutsu is ruled out because Minato needs only to touch Itachi in CQC to get that seal on him. Fireballs are useless, water attacks are useless, amaterasu and totsuka are generally avoided. A single clone makes it easier, rather than one man that's near impossible to hit, you now have a 50% chance to do any damage on top of that as you may popl the clone. 

It'll be no walk in the park, but Minato needs only to touch Itachi. At that point Itachi must keep up a constant guard via. susanoo or Minato can port in at any time. With this tactic Minato can focus on avoiding Itachi's attacks while Itachi's chakra is sapped via. susanoo. Should Itachi try to conserve chakra and remove susanoo will he be able to react to hirashin?

Tsunade:
Itachi takes it. Tsunade's only crutch would be that a taijutsu exchange would be deadly for Itachi. Itachi has full knowledge and has no reason to get that close and can by all means take her out at a distance via. genjutsu, amaterasu, or totsuka. He can even casually handle the slug.

Sandaime Kazekage
Itachi. I don't think he used poison, rather it was Sasori that applied it to the sand. The small chance he might have had to scratch Itachi is non-existant. Either way, it was a slim chance.

Gaara's Dad:
Itachi. No desert, nothing to talk about. Gold sand is a good defense, but he certainly can't camp in it. Itachi would likely just light it up if he can't get him out and then they play the waiting game. Additionally, the man has no gourd to speak of, and he isn't on his own terrain. This location gives him a bridge and some water, so there isn't a rich source to get more materials. 

Gaara:
Itachi. Same as above, only Gaara naturally has more sand due to the gourd. With full knowledge Gaara will be on the lookout for genjutsu and Itachi will have the means to defend against sand. if this comes down to pure tactical advantage, I'm giving it to Itachi. 

Muu:
Don't know. Assuming he can't see Muu then a sneaky pivotal dust release attack can sweep the area. If Itachi can't leap over it in time, or have Yata in that immediate direction then he's obliterated.

Oonoki:
Same as above, only we can say with certainty that Onoki can't conceal his appearance. I'd give this to Itachi. You'd need a surprise dust release to capitalize on the yata mirror. As long as Itachi keeps Onoki in his sights then he can attempt amataerasu whenever Onoki attempts dust release. 

Trollkage:
Itachi. Trollkage can troll all he wants. Any serious offense he decides to bring forth has nothing on Itachi's arsenal/ He brings out Joki boy and then what? Blows up Susanoo?

I don't see that happening.

Even if Itachi couldn't see through the illusion, it doesn't even matter. I believe he can see through it just fine.

Yagura:
I believe that the hard shell of the beast can withstand amaterasu for quite some time. It really depends on the effect Totsuka has on the turtle. Can Itachi tank the beast ball? It really depends on these factors.

Mei:
Mei is defeated, she can obstruct Itachi's vision, but Itachi can light her up as soon as she performs the seal. He has full knowledge, and the sharingan literally can't miss it. I'm not sure how she answers this. Using amaterasu is faster than performing seals. 

Sandaime Raikage
A
Itachi eventually tags these two one way or another. We know Raikage can't break Susanoo and with full knowledge Itachi is going to keep it up.

I'd say Muu, Yagura (tailed beast form) and Tobirama are debatable. Itachi more often than not.

Minato is more often than not.

Hashirama is a definite victor.


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## ImSerious (Jul 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tobirama ? based on what ?
> 
> 
> As far as their display goes, Itachi wouldn't even need MS.



Portrayal.

He made Sasuke piss his pants by lifting his finger.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 7, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Portrayal.
> 
> He made Sasuke piss his pants by lifting his finger.



Sasuke didn't activate his Mangekyō, so he wasn't _that_ intimidated.


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## ImSerious (Jul 7, 2013)

he was shitting bricks.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Someone is also going to have to explain to be how the fuck Oonoki is supposed to beat Itachi.
> 
> By the way, Mei is not beating Itachi at a 5m distance. Mist? She won't even get a chance to use it, to say nothing of the poor likelihood of it doing anything to impede Itachi's ability to kill her in the slightest.


It is possible. He knows to avoid eye contact and Itachi's genjutsu range is limited. And he can only hit one at a time. So bunshins, avoid eye contact, and keep the battle mid-long range. 3 counters for genjutsu right there. Amaterasu would have to chase someone as fast as Oonoki down and with bunshins he could hit the wrong target. Base arsenal is useless here. Jinton very well take down his Susano from the rear. Oonoki has ways to win. But it is not a guarantee.

Itachi killing the Mizukage with full knowledge before she can do anything sounds ridiculous. Will he end up winning? I'm pretty sure. Can he obliterate a Kage effortlessly with full knowledge in the blink of an eye? Of course not. Mist screws over genjutsu and amaterasu and she can still launch attacks. He still has a fight on his hands whether you want to believe it or not.


As for others on the list of course Hashirama and Minato take it.

Tobirama has the tools to win. Suitons take his katons and his speed/sensing/Kage Bunshin usage can null Itachi's kage bunshin feints. Too much experience fighting sharingan users for me to think he can't actually deal with genjutsu. Whether it be avoid eye contact, breaking it, using Kage bunshins, sensing, etc, I am sure he can deal with it. Applies to tsukiyomi as well (not breaking it I suppose). Teleporting can avoid amaterasu along with using it in conjunction with his sensing and bunshin feints. Susano is Itachi's saving grace, but teleporting inside might be possible and I have not even seen any of Tobirama's big guns. I want to give it to Tobirama since he could win without even having much knowledge on his abilities and he has beaten a Mangekyou user considered Madara's equal before EMS (thus likely had Susano).

Gaara could win as he can defend against amaterasu and stay out of genjutsu range. Sand bunshins help against genjutsu and amaterasu as well. Susano might be able to be defeated the same way he got Madara out of his. 

Both Raikages could win. Avoid genjutsu and tank/dodge amaterasu and just live with it on you (in Sandaime's case). Continue the match and potentially break Susano with Hell Bringer.

A lot of them could win it just depend.


----------



## Ersa (Jul 7, 2013)

Healthy Itachi operates on the higher end of the Kage spectrum. So I honestly think only Minato and Hashirama can defeat him. Tobirama needs more feats.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 7, 2013)

Hashirama beats Itachi. Hashirama has the sheer raw power which Itachi cannot simply outsmart like he did against Nagato, his jutsu are a scale above even Nagato and his ability with Moukton bushin will also pose a big problem. Hashirama with mid difficulty at best.

Tobirama loses, given lack of feats and Itachi's feats are on par with Minato's who seems to be an inferior copy of Minato. Only thing Tobirama has to suggest he'd give Itachi a tough fight is his win over Izuna.

Hiruzen loses, this shouldn't really have to be explained. 

Minato vs Itachi. Idk, this can go either way, both are tremendously skilled and both have counters to each other it's simply one of those battle of attrition fights in which both are equally skilled in.

Tsunade forces Itachi to use MS, but I suspect sharingan genjutsu would work, however I'm going to give Tsunade the benefit of the doubt. However Itachi still wins.

Saindaime Kazekage loses to Itachi fairly easy and possibly without MS use, of course its debatable. 

Gaara loses since he's a copy of his dad, but a bit stronger. I could imagine Gaara falling for Tsukuyomi or sharingan genjutsu since he seems like he LOVES steering Uchiha's in the eyes  (see him cornering Sasuke at kage summit and looking at Madara Uchiha for the first time).

Muu should be detectable given he has the sharingan and the Yata mirror should be capable of holding its own against Jinton, though this is subjective on whether or not sharingan can detect Muu, I don't see why it shouldn't be able to, quite honestly and Itachi's sword of Totsuka's range should not be underestimated. 

Onoki dies. He isn't a sensor IIRC, plus can't go undetectable unlike Muu who is basically Onoki's stronger counterpart. Itachi takes this mid - high diff. But this depends since he did look Madara in his EMS when he was telling the others about it, or maybe he wasn't? Either ways he's done if he makes that mistake against Itachi.

Mei doesn't really stand a chance, she was barely a match for an inexperienced MS Sasuke, chances of her giving Itachi a fight are slim. Itachi low difficulty. 

Yagura? Need feats to say, don't remember too much of his fighting style. Doubt he could beat Itachi, but need feats to judge the difficulty Itachi has. But I'd say Itachi wins with mid - high difficulty (probably change this if I can seeYagura feats). 

Trollkages genjutsu won't affect Itachi, if at all. Joki boy will be the only problem and AMeterasu/Susano'o should be fully capable of beating this. Itachi with mid difficulty depending on Joki boy mechanics, of course a clone feint to the real body (which Itachi is more than smart enough to figure out) should give Itachi a somewhat easy win here. 

Saindaime Raikage will get tagged eventually by Susano'o and I'm not too sure if he's fast enough to dodge Ameterasu or not. But Itachi takes this with mid difficulty. 

Sasuke was able to tag A and Sasuke is a bit slower than Itachi and doesn't have shushin as good as his (when using karasu bushin and such). Itachi can easily trick A into a trap and get him with a blindside attack. Itachi with mid - high difficulty.



Vice said:


> Tobirama has no feats? Hasn't he already casually beaten an MS user?



Not really. Casually would imply that Izuna was fodder compared to Tobirama and it did take a long portion of Tobirama's life before he could put him down. Plus we don't know the stipulations or conditions of this battle (considering it is war, sneak attacks/helping others/or being handicapped/overused of MS, maybe going blind - the list is really too long to categorize Tobirama's win over Izuna as "casual").


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2013)

Hashirama stomps of course.

I honestly don't see Itachi outsmarting Minato of all people, and that's what he would need to do to actually hit the guy. Honestly, because of their comparable intelligence, the suggestion that Itachi tricks Minato and blindsides him with a Mangekyou technique is about as valid as one claiming _Minato tricks Itachi_ and blindsides him with Hiraishin. 

If he's alive, spaming the Mangekyou to no end isn't an option, so one can't even make the argument that Itachi has basically infinite time to do so. He has very limited time, considering Stamina has been a weak point for him.

Tobirama is interesting. He's Hashirama's Senju brother, the 2nd Hokage, and has grown up fighting Uchiha his entire life. He even seemed confident in taking Madara. There's just a presence to him that makes me doubtful normal Uchiha hax would fodderize him so easily. The debate to me is more along the lines of how he would deal with things specific to Itachi, like Genjutsu mastery. I can't really decide who I favor.


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## Jagger (Jul 7, 2013)

Vice said:


> I read a manga where Tobirama beat an MS user yet somehow doesn't count as a feat.


Maybe because the techniques used on the fight or the conditions of it. It's a war, mate. Everything is allowed there, for all we know, Izuna could have been gangbanged by the whole Senju clan and Tobirama dealt the final blow.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Why is that? It's not as if Itachi will be constantly attacking.



He can attack rapidly, with magatama, Amaterasu and Totsuka.



> Amaterasu is the only technique that has a remote chance of even getting near him, and the Uchiha won't be using that more than a few times.


Madara's susano'o clone was able to grab A in a short window of opportunity.
With enough distraction, any of Itachi's attacks have a chance of getting near him.



> In addition to that, the Fourth Raikage doesn't have to stop to attack, throwing a punch or Lightning Horizontal Chop whilst moving is something he's always done.


What do you think is going to happen when he connects with Susano'o ? 



> No, he didn't.


He pretty much did.
Shikigami no Mai 



Vice said:


> I read a manga where Tobirama beat an MS user yet somehow doesn't count as a feat.



Its a hype not a feat. Learn the difference.



ImSerious said:


> Portrayal.
> 
> He made Sasuke piss his pants by lifting his finger.



Portrayal doesn't work in BD.


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## Ersa (Jul 8, 2013)

Itachi will definitely beat A, TastyMuffin.

He can deal with V1 A's speed pretty well if we scale him to Sasuke (whom has inferior reflexes to Itachi as shown through Muki Tensei) or if we consider the tajitsu bout between KCM Naruto (no Shunshin) and Itachi. The only thing he won't be able to match is A's V2 which means Amaterasu is useless but he can use ribcage/skeletal Susanoo to guard against most of A's attacks. From there it's a matter of tricking A with a Bushin feint and catching him like Madara did then Tsukiyomi. That is within Itachi's shown stamina limits.

Feats and portrayal put Itachi much higher then A.


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## ImSerious (Jul 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Portrayal doesn't work in BD.



Its kind of our only option when the guy has so little feats. You either dont include him in the thread or you have to go by portrayal.


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Portrayal doesn't work in BD.




This a written rule, or some nonsense you made up?


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## Jagger (Jul 8, 2013)

It's just me or I'm seeing someone arguing that Hashirama can beat Itachi?


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## Nikushimi (Jul 8, 2013)

Vice said:


> I read a manga where Tobirama beat an MS user yet somehow doesn't count as a feat.



As people keep pointing out to you, and as you apparently keep ignoring, the fight happened off-panel. We don't know how strong the MS user was or how Tobirama beat him.



Rosencrantz said:


> It is possible. He knows to avoid eye contact and Itachi's genjutsu range is limited.



They are within Itachi's Genjutsu range. And because Itachi can cast Genjutsu from his fingers as well, Oonoki will have to avoid looking at his entire upper-body.

Which means it's going to be impossible to read any of Itachi's Ninjutsu if Oonoki is averting his gaze.



> And he can only hit one at a time. So bunshins, avoid eye contact, and keep the battle mid-long range. 3 counters for genjutsu right there.



Sure; he just has to avoid looking at Itachi, make clones, and get outside of Itachi's range before Itachi does anything at the 5m starting distance.



> Amaterasu would have to chase someone as fast as Oonoki down and with bunshins he could hit the wrong target. Base arsenal is useless here. Jinton very well take down his Susano from the rear.



Amaterasu chased down someone faster than Ooboki (Sasuke with the Juin). Itachi shouldn't have to worry about open clone feints given the Sharingan's ability to read Jutsu in advance.



> Oonoki has ways to win. But it is not a guarantee.



I'm not seeing it.

Even if Oonoki somehow doesn't get caught in Genjutsu at the start, which I personally find unlikely even with intel, how is he supposed to deal with Amaterasu? It's not like he can see it coming if he is avoiding eye-contact.



> Itachi killing the Mizukage with full knowledge before she can do anything sounds ridiculous. Will he end up winning? I'm pretty sure. Can he obliterate a Kage effortlessly with full knowledge in the blink of an eye? Of course not. Mist screws over genjutsu and amaterasu and she can still launch attacks. He still has a fight on his hands whether you want to believe it or not.



Considering the short starting distance and Itachi's obvious physical superiority over her, I don't see anything stopping him from blitzing the Mizukage, avoiding her Yoton Ninjutsu, and proceeding to beat her down.

Mei won't get a chance to hide in her mist if Itachi is already on top of her before then.



Jagger said:


> It's just me or I'm seeing someone arguing that Hashirama can beat Itachi?



I know; it's just crazy.


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## Vice (Jul 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its a hype not a feat. Learn the difference.





Nikushimi said:


> As people keep pointing out to you, and as you apparently keep ignoring, the fight happened off-panel. We don't know how strong the MS user was or how Tobirama beat him.



Are you fucking serious? He did it on panel.


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## αce (Jul 8, 2013)

Tobirama is probably stronger than Itachi, but your reasoning is fucking retarded. I don't know why I'm surprised considering all your posts are terrible. We only saw the finishing blow. We have no idea how hard Tobirama had it in that fight and your comment that he killed him casually (another retarded statement, surprise) is indication enough that you are just fucking bias against Itachi considering all the years Tobirama put into trying to put down the Uchiha bro's.


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## Unknown (Jul 8, 2013)

Have you taken in consideration regarding Muu and Oonoki, that they can fly?

Flying is a big advantage, they can stay out of Susanoo's range as much as they want, and they only need to keep cautious about Magatamas, Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu.

Infact, Oonoki should be able to fly far from Itachi, as Oonoki can keep his high flying speed, pick a mountain size rock, and drop it where Itachi is...


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## Vice (Jul 8, 2013)

αce said:


> Tobirama is probably stronger than Itachi



Then you should probably just shut the fuck up then, I'd assume.


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## αce (Jul 8, 2013)

I like how you take quotes out of paragraphs and attempt to make witty responses. All your posts are terrible and your grasp on this manga is mediocre at best. It's not healthy to hate a manga character as much as you do. Get some help.

And no, when I see stupid reasoning I call it out, no matter what side of the argument I'm on. Your reasoning sucks and you haven't even addressed all the people calling you out for your faulty logic. You just post one sentence responses ignoring all of the content.


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## Vice (Jul 8, 2013)

No, the retarded logic is saying that beating an MS user doesn't count as a feat in a topic concerning fighting an MS user.

I don't give a rat's ass about any of the other bullshit you're spewing now as your opinion means absolutely dick to me.


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## αce (Jul 8, 2013)

Yes, it doesn't count as a feat because you seem to be under the impression that all Mangekyou users possess the same abilities, when the manga has made it blatantly clear that Itachi's Susano-o is unique (as is every fucking Susano-o) and that several Mangekyou's (Shisui, Obito, Sasuke) differ in abilities in comparison to Itachi's without even taking Susano-o into account. Obito and Shisui don't have amaterasu. Obito, Shisui and Sasuke don't have Tsukiyomi and none of them have the same items that Itachi's final form of Susano-o possesses. To say that Izuna's would, despite the trend that has been laid out, would be reaching. Although I wouldn't be surprised. 

Your analogy would have made sense if your grasp on Uchiha abilities wasn't absolute horse shit. Not all Mangekyou users have the same abilities. This would basically be equivalent to me saying that Tobirama could beat any Mangekyou user, since he already beat one on panel, not taking into account the fact that there are differences.


Again, your manga knowledge sucks.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 8, 2013)

Vice said:


> Are you fucking serious? He did it on panel.



No he didn't.



Unknown said:


> Have you taken in consideration regarding Muu and Oonoki, that they can fly?
> 
> Flying is a big advantage, they can stay out of Susanoo's range as much as they want, and they only need to keep cautious about Magatamas, Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu.
> 
> Infact, Oonoki should be able to fly far from Itachi, as Oonoki can keep his high flying speed, pick a mountain size rock, and drop it where Itachi is...



Sure, they just have to

1. Get outside of Itachi's range before he catches them at 5m

and

2. Attack Itachi from outside his range faster than he can dodge.



Vice said:


> No, the retarded logic is saying that beating an MS user doesn't count as a feat in a topic concerning fighting an MS user.



1. We don't know how strong that MS user was relative to Itachi. Comparing them because they have the same Doujutsu is like comparing 3-tomoe Sharingan Itachi to those three Uchiha police he casually romper-stomped when he was a kid.

2. We don't know the specific Jutsu of that MS user.

3. We didn't see the entire battle leading up to Tobirama's finishing blow or how he was able to do that.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 8, 2013)

Vice said:


> No, the retarded logic is saying that beating an MS user doesn't count as a feat in a topic concerning fighting an MS user.



The thing is about this though, is that  we don't know the stipulations, conditions, or how it went down and/or finished. We saw Tobirama delivering the finishing blow, yes. But to say Tobirama killed Izuna "casually" when he couldn't do so for so many years isn't plausible. 

The possibility that Izuna was jumped is quite high, or that perhaps Izuna went blind - Tobirama saw this weakness and took the opportunity to kill his rival and at the same time cripple the Uchiha's hierachy (as Madara, and others of those war eras clearly knew that numbers mean something, and qaulity in numbers can make such a difference [like when Tazuna asked him if he's up to take on the Senju, Madara said they'd lose cause Hashirama is stronger]). Or perhaps Izuna was defending someone and attacked or fell off balance in attacking/defending against others and Tobirama caught him. 

There are simply too many variables when it comes to war to say the fight was kept clean, and definitely isn't plausible to say Tobirama beat Izuna casually.

Also Itachi > an inexperienced MS Sasuke so clearly something so vuage as saying Tobirama already beat a MS user before doesn't matter much. It'd be like saying because Naruto beat Tendo that he can solo Nagato (another Rinnegan user) or Madara.


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## Vice (Jul 8, 2013)

αce said:


> Yes, it doesn't count as a feat because you seem to be under the impression that all Mangekyou users possess the same abilities, when the manga has made it blatantly clear that Itachi's Susano-o is unique (as is every fucking Susano-o) and that several Mangekyou's (Shisui, Obito, Sasuke) differ in abilities in comparison to Itachi's without even taking Susano-o into account. Obito and Shisui don't have amaterasu. Obito, Shisui and Sasuke don't have Tsukiyomi and none of them have the same items that Itachi's final form of Susano-o possesses. To say that Izuna's would, despite the trend that has been laid out, would be reaching. Although I wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Your analogy would have made sense if your grasp on Uchiha abilities wasn't absolute horse shit. Not all Mangekyou users have the same abilities. This would basically be equivalent to me saying that Tobirama could beat any Mangekyou user, since he already beat one on panel, not taking into account the fact that there are differences.
> 
> ...



No, I took Susanoo into account, I'm just not wanking it as the end-all, be-all technique you seem to think it is.

First of all, this is _living_ Itachi, not _edo_ Itachi so his Susanoo time is already limited. Second of all, Tobirama can use FTG which means all he has to do is tag Itachi and it's done. Not only that, but Itachi has NEVER, in his entire run in the manga, ever pulled out Susanoo from the very beginning of a fight. So yeah, let's just pretend that Itachi pulls out Susanoo and can sustain it forever while his opponent stands there and drools on himself despite having a superior speed and jutsu advantage because he's fighting Itachi and we have to wank him.

My knowledge of the manga is just fine, by the way. Get over it.


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## Vice (Jul 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> No he didn't.





This is not hype. This is not conjecture. This is not opinion. This is an on-panel, canon feat.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 8, 2013)

Vice said:


> This is not hype. This is not conjecture. This is not opinion. This is an on-panel, canon feat.



...So was this, but lets not fool ourselves into thinking Hashirama casually landed a final blow on Madara.


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## αce (Jul 8, 2013)

> No, I took Susanoo into account, I'm just not wanking it as the end-all, be-all technique you seem to think it is.
> 
> First of all, this is living Itachi, not edo Itachi so his Susanoo time is already limited. Second of all, Tobirama can use FTG which means all he has to do is tag Itachi and it's done. Not only that, but Itachi has NEVER, in his entire run in the manga, ever pulled out Susanoo from the very beginning of a fight. So yeah, let's just pretend that Itachi pulls out Susanoo and can sustain it forever while his opponent stands there and drools on himself despite having a superior speed and jutsu advantage because he's fighting Itachi and we have to wank him.



Not only is your manga knowledge terrible, but now you're giving me reasons for Tobirama's victory when I already agreed that he would beat Itachi. You (once again) ignored the rest of my post calling out your shitty initial reasoning, which was simply Tobirama beating Izuna, not the rest of this stuff you just posted.

Also, I'm not sure why you assumed I would think Itachi would pull out Susano-o at the start. Quote the exact post where I said that would occur. I simply took into account Itachi's Susano-o in the match, because not taking it into account would be retarded. I said nothing about the point at which it comes into the fight. And I never argued that Tobirama would be drooling like an idiot. And who's wanking Itachi? Not me. The only thing sad here is your obsessive hate for a fictional character. 

Not only are you a terrible poster, but now you put words into other peoples mouths to suit your own argument. Great. 



> My knowledge of the manga is just fine, by the way. Get over it.



No it isn't. It's terrible. As are all of your posts. I was calling you out for your reasoning, which was sub-par. Not on the outcome of the match. _Equating Izuna to Itachi merely on the fact that both possess the Mangekyou is a terrible argument._ And you should feel bad. 

Be gone with you.


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## Vice (Jul 8, 2013)

Well I don't, and I'm right and you admit I'm right and I could care less what you think of me so get the fuck over it or put me on ignore. Either way, I don't give a darn.


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## αce (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm probably done with this argument. I don't know why I started.



> and* I could care less* what you think of me



Le sigh.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 8, 2013)

Vice said:


> This is not hype. This is not conjecture. This is not opinion. This is an on-panel, canon feat.



It's a feat that can't be quantified because we don't know how strong Izuna was or what Jutsu he could use, and we have no idea how Tobirama managed to land that final blow because we didn't see.

You now have two options:

1. Admit I have a point and drop it.

or

2. Ignore what I said (again) and keep going back to Tobirama defeating an MS user of unknown strength after an unseen fight, which will just lead to me pointing out to you that Izuna's strength is unknown and that we didn't see how Tobirama managed to land his finisher (again).

I hold your destiny in my hands, but you are the one who will decide it.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 8, 2013)

Vice said:


> Well I don't, and I'm right and you admit I'm right and I could care less what you think of me so get the fuck over it or put me on ignore. Either way, I don't give a darn.



You are right inasmuch as Tobirama defeated an MS user.

That just doesn't mean anything because we have no idea how strong the MS user was or how Tobirama did it.


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## Vice (Jul 8, 2013)

You started it because you're vehement in trying to get one over on me because, for reasons beyond me, you just absolutely cannot stand that I dislike Itachi. You follow me around desperately trying to insult me like I even give you or your posts a second glance.

Get over it.


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## αce (Jul 8, 2013)

What's even funnier is that Itachi is higher than Tobirama on his tier list, who is right above Izuna.

:sanji



> S+
> Hashirama
> Madara
> Kyuubi
> ...


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## Vice (Jul 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It's a feat that can't be quantified because we don't know how strong Izuna was or what Jutsu he could use, and we have no idea how Tobirama managed to land that final blow because we didn't see.
> 
> You now have two options:
> 
> ...



Yeah, we didn't see the context of the Orochimaru/Itachi encounter yet you have no problem counting it as a feat either.


----------



## Unknown (Jul 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sure, they just have to
> 
> 1. Get outside of Itachi's range before he catches them at 5m
> 
> ...



I'm not saying that they win. I'm just pointing that they have an advantage.

Also Muu could react to RM Naruto's surprise attack just fine, and he was the only Kage to be able to dodge Gaara's sand...

They are faster than you think. Imo Oonoki (old) is just a little below Itachi's overall level, while Muu might be on his level  or slightly above.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 8, 2013)

Vice said:


> Yeah, we didn't see the context of the Orochimaru/Itachi encounter yet you have no problem counting it as a feat either.



We know Kasegui is a visual Genjutsu and we at least have a basic understanding of how that works.

There is also a lack of discernable injury or fatigue on both sides, no Mangekyou Sharingan, no Kuchiyose, and no environmental damage.

This suggests (note: does not prove) that little, if _any_ fighting took place prior to Itachi subduing Orochimaru with Genjutsu. Orochimaru's remark that he "couldn't believe" he was caught suggests that he at least had the presence of mind going into the encounter to feel comfortable that he wouldn't be. There were also no other combatants present (that we know of). We also know the primary Jutsu used by both Itachi and Orochimaru, what they are capable of, and when they clearly haven't been used.

In contrast, we don't even know what Hiraishingiri does, we don't know what Izuna was capable of at all, there were other Senju on the battlefield, and both Tobirama and Izuna looked visibly dissheveled. We have evidence that a difficult, protracted battle occurred and that other combatants were available to assist/interfere on both sides, yet we don't see anything up until Tobirama finally cuts Izuna down (or, to be more accurate, moments AFTER that has happened).



Unknown said:


> I'm not saying that they win. I'm just pointing that they have an advantage.
> 
> Also Muu could react to RM Naruto's surprise attack just fine, and he was the only Kage to be able to dodge Gaara's sand...



Muu is a sensor-type shinobi. When Naruto attacked him directly, he managed to blitz Muu with his Go Go Gadget Chakra Arms.



> They are faster than you think. Imo Oonoki (old) is just a little below Itachi's overall level, while Muu might be on his level  or slightly above.



Oonoki and Deidara had the same flight speed.

Kakashi and base Naruto closely tracked a flying Deidara for what was probably several kilometers and eventually caught up to him.


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## Octavian (Jul 8, 2013)

Itachi beats everyone except Hashirama and Minato. Tobirama is a toss-up at this point in time as we have no concrete idea of his combat style. Based on his portrayal and hype, however, it should be a close match, regardless of who wins.


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## LostSelf (Jul 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It's a feat that can't be quantified because we don't know how strong Izuna was or what Jutsu he could use, and we have no idea how Tobirama managed to land that final blow because we didn't see.
> .



Izuna might have been able to use Amaterasu if we consider that he was Tobirama's oponent [1].

He could've been refering to Madara as well. So who knows... Anyway we know that Tobirama should be experienced in fighting the black flames.


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## Ennoia (Jul 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Muu is a sensor-type shinobi. When Naruto attacked him directly, he managed to blitz Muu with his Go Go Gadget Chakra Arms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be fair, Deidara was not trying to lose Naruto and Kakashi because he was trying to capture Naruto. I would not say Naruto and Kakashi were keeping up or tracking Deidara because Deidara was not trying to flee.


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## Unknown (Jul 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Muu is a sensor-type shinobi. When Naruto attacked him directly, he managed to blitz Muu with his Go Go Gadget Chakra Arms.
> 
> Oonoki and Deidara had the same flight speed.




Muu is still a sensor for this fight isn't it?, then his speed feats that depend on his sensing skill are as valid as any other.

Also RM Naruto's chakra claws didn't blitz Muu. 
1- Muu was performing a jinton, and jinton users can't move while they are preparing the jinton.
2- Muu reacted to RM Naruto's chakra claw and divided himself just in time to trick R Naruto, a sensor, Oonoki and Gaara.

Many people still think that RM Naruto+Oonoki+Gaara's combo defeated Muu, while the truth is that Muu was one of the Edos that weren't defeated till Itachi made Kabuto cancel the Edo Tensei.

Muu has a reaction speed high enough to deal with Itachi's combat speed with easy.

Oonoki's normal flying speed is equal to Deidara's, which is fast enough to avoid CS2 Sasuke, which should be faster than MS Sasuke or EMS Sasuke. But Oonoki can make himself even faster with his weight changing technique.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> This a written rule, or some nonsense you made up?



Its called common sense, something you are not familiar with.



ImSerious said:


> Its kind of our only option when the guy has so little feats. You either dont include him in the thread or you have to go by portrayal.



Or just go by feats instead, or even use hype if you like, and state that Itachi annihilates the outdated version of minato.

Portrayal is even more ambigious than hype, there is no way to rely on it in BD.


----------



## Ƶero (Jul 8, 2013)

He beats everyone except Minato, Tobirama and Hashirama. Tobirama is 50/50 and Minato doesnt really need KCM to beat Itachi, KCM Minato would murderstomp Itachi.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jul 8, 2013)

Rasant said:


> or if we consider the tajitsu bout between KCM Naruto (no Shunshin) and Itachi



I'm fine with Itachi dealing with Raikage in his initial Lightning Shroud activation, but this is *not* the reason for it. There are an absolute multitiude of ways the encounter between Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto and Itachi are completely moot in regards to feats and speed scaling.



> The only thing he won't be able to match is A's V2 which means Amaterasu is useless but he can use ribcage/skeletal Susanoo to guard against most of A's attacks.



Ribcage Susano'o is useless against A, I guarantee you that.



> From there it's a matter of tricking A with a Bushin feint and catching him like Madara did then Tsukiyomi. That is within Itachi's shown stamina limits.



Is the Raikage simply going to stop in his tracks the moment he hits a Shadow Clone and it disperses? He has _insanely_ fast reaction time, he's not going to sit there thinking, 'duh, what just happened?' He'll realize in a split-second and continue to move at high speeds. 

That proposition isn't likely anyways; A's combat style effectively combines both strength and speed, which means he'll puncture through the Clone and continue zipping by; there'll be no resistance to his motion (it's a goddamn Shadow Clone). Furthermore, I can't see Itachi 'catching him like he did Madara', A was virtually *stuck *under the weight of Susano'o and talking to Tsunade intently before Madara managed to tag him with genjutsu. Those are factors that won't occur in this match-up with Itachi, especially the first one.



> Feats and portrayal put Itachi much higher then A.



Portrayal? What extraordinary portrayal does Itachi have that puts him over A?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He can attack rapidly, with magatama, Amaterasu and Totsuka.



Yeah, and watch his stamina decrease by absolutely *enormous *proportions. I hope you understand that Itachi is _not _Sasuke in regards to stamina and from what we've seen, he used each Mangekyo technique once (with the exception of Amaterasu) before dropping dead. 

Fact of the matter is, Itachi isn't nearly as versatile as Sasuke is with his Mangekyo techniques and his relatively low chakra capacity ensures that A has plenty of time to avoid each one. Conclusion? 

He isn't hitting A.



> Madara's susano'o clone was able to grab A in a short window of opportunity.
> With enough distraction, any of Itachi's attacks have a chance of getting near him.



When A was flat-out yelling at Tsunade, concerned for her safety, and not paying attention to his surroundings at all. It doesn't help that he was basically stuck under the weight of Susano'o whilst talking. 

The only way I see Itachi pulling a hit from six o'clock is through Kage Bunshin feints, but then, I question his capacity to continue using Mangekyo Sharingan techniques if he does so.



> What do you think is going to happen when he connects with Susano'o ?



Against Yata Mirror? Perhaps little. 

Against the back? If A continues zipping by, striking the rear of the chakra construct and powered by his top-speed levels (he broke through Sasuke's ribcage in a stationary position), I don't see Itachi's defense lasting very long. And that's not what I'm trying to contest; I'm arguing that A will win through sheer attrition, not sheer force.



> He pretty much did.
> [6]



That's not reacting, Grimmjowsensei.

We not only have on-screen panels of A _completely_ vanished from the battlefield, but also Karin's direct statement that Sasuke could not follow A's top-speed movements, at all. If you're going to suggest Sasuke somehow reacted just because he activated his Blaze Release you're also going to have to explain his 'knowing' A was there despite clearly not looking at him.

Is Sasuke a sensor now, Grimmjowsensei?



Eliyua23 said:


> We don't know how much discussed , but from what he concluded about Itachi he was overall a better ninja , if you told me Kobe Bryant scored 81 pts on an NBA level, I wouldn't have to see him play to conclude he's a better basketball player than me.



What kind of god-awful analogy is this? 

How the _fuck_ did Sasuke's little anecdote about Itachi even denote any sort of indication about the latter's combat skill or power? It was shoved in our face that that entire story was talking about Itachi's nobility, not how fucking strong he was in eliminating a bunch of unsuspecting Uchiha that Hashirama wouldn't have trouble with in the _least._

Good Christ.



> How wouldn't it be a valid statement he knows himself better than you or I



Because, dear Eliyua, that statement wouldn't make sense. It's like Naruto saying a Mangekyo-less, blind, half-dead Sasuke was 'stronger' than him despite the implication that the former wasn't speaking about sheer strength at all.

Hashirama has no idea how strong Itachi is and it is the dumbest claim ever to suggest he does off Sasuke's words.  

Holy shit.



> We know the Totsuka is ethereal and we don't know If the fight would even get that far, It's not something Hashirama doesn't pull off automatically IC



Ethereal says nothing about it; it still has to pierce the target in order for it to work. And from we've seen, the most durable thing we've seen it pierce is Nagato.

_Sage Art: Several True Thousand Hands_ is leagues more durable than the Rinnegan user.



> He made no adjustments against a man he's fought hundreds of times, *why would you use Kurama against a man known to control tailed beast,* he's a brute whose shown no intellect ,certainly not on the level of Itachi, Minato, Kakashi



No adjustments? I just *gave *you one. 

Are you seriously asking why Madara used Kurama? 

Really?

You're questioning the wisdom in controlling a 100-meter tall fox whose physical blows are strong enough to destroy entire towns and whose attacks can vaporize entire mountain ranges.

Really, now? 



> Izanagi loses an eye and he had both eyes when he achieved the Rinnegan



That's not what I'm asking. How do you know he even used genjutsu at Hashirama?



> Look at the panel when he was killed his EMS was deactivated


 
... what?

You're saying Madara used genjutsu on Hashirama even without his Sharingan?



> He hits an exploding clone and is temporarily placed under Itachi's MS genjutsu and before he breaks is hit with amaterasu



Do you even have any *clue* how utterly enormous a hand from Wood Style: Laughing Buddha Jutsu is?

It's the size of the Nine-Tails.

Yeah, tell me what's faster, Eliyua: Hashirama clapping his hands together or Itachi forming an exploding clone and somehow travelling three hundred meters out of range before the hand gets him. Tell me, if Itachi even manages to evade six gigantic wooden hands diving for his ass, how he then manages to get back to Hashirama without being crushed along the way and kill him.

Cannot _believe_ I'm have this debate.



> Where is confirmation he's surpassed Itachi, it was a panel used to hype or do you think based upon what has been shown Tobirama>Orochimaru, Sasuke Becuase nothing he's shown has indicated that, Minato didn't get any hype and he's by far stronger than Tobirama
> 
> Itachi is a benchmark for one of the main characters a benchmark he hasn't been said to surpass, you think that Itaci will be surpassed without Kishi telling the reader.



I asked you how Itachi was portrayed to be stronger than Tobirama.

Saying he's a 'benchmark' for Sasuke when by all intents and purposes Sasuke's beaten him in terms of feats when Tobrama's level of strength is a complete unknown is the very definition of a baseless claim.



> Most with common knowledge of the manga would understand other than the Minato's, Naruto's Obito's of the world most other characters shouldn't even be discussed unless you create a hypothetical scenario that reduces each character to a game of tekken or street fighter.



Um, yes there are far more. I could argue Muu, Onoki, Nagato, A, and a variety of others.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> They are within Itachi's Genjutsu range. And because Itachi can cast Genjutsu from his fingers as well, Oonoki will have to avoid looking at his entire upper-body.
> 
> Which means it's going to be impossible to read any of Itachi's Ninjutsu if Oonoki is averting his gaze.
> 
> ...


Or just avoid looking at his eyes. He also has to activate his sharingan mind you. His finger genjutsu honestly has no feats. He caught one of the worse genjutsu fighters in the manga. This tells me nothing about it working on anyone else. Oonoki was able to fight by just not looking directly into a sharingan user's eyes. And Oonoki can move out of the range. He can't fly after all.

Hyping up finger genjutsu based on nothing.

He doesn't have to do all of this. He doesn't have to look at his eyes. Not Itachi as a whole. Then he quickly flies out of his range. Itachi can't fly. He can also make clones. So basically genjutsu fails miserably here.

CS2 Sasuke is faster than Base Sasuke? Didn't know that. Scans please? And Sasuke was injured when he was running. So a tired Sasuke  outran amaterasu for a while. And Oonoki has shown to be faster than Sasuke in flight especially a tired one. He fell for Kakashi's bunshin feints twice. Sharingan does not help see through bunshin feints. Byakugan, sharingan, and rinnengan users have ALL fallen for them. Oonoki can make 5 bunshins. It does not matter if Itachi watches him make them. He still does not know which is the real one.

Of course you aren't. You want Itachi to just genjutsu/blitz anyone he comes across. That's why your opinion around here isn't worth much.

Already told you he knows to avoid eye contact per the manga. So he avoids it. Finger genjutsu has no legit feats. So that is useless. What more do you want? Oonoki can fly while Itachi can't so he can also get out of range. He can also make bunshins. Pick your poison. Onooki has 3 solid counters to genjutsu. I already said he has bunshins. Itachi will have to pick a target with amaterasu. In every case, Itachi has to focus on a single target and go for it.  If one bunshin is behind Itachi, one is in front, one is to the left, one is to the right, and one is above, Itachi has to pick which one he wants to hit. As he showed against Nagato and against Sasuke, he has to pick one target at a time. Even when he had unlimited chakra lawl. Oh and these targets aren't slow. They are fast so while he takes the few seconds to focus and chase down a clone, he has 4 more flying in on him to jinton him to hell. He could use Susano, but that could lose to jinton and will just drain him even more. And with bunshins on the field and when he is out of range, he can look at his eyes again because genjutsu is of no concern.

Suigetsu and Juugo reacted to V1 Raikage. Kurenai reacted to Itachi's kunai slash and kick when she was coming out of a genjutsu. Mei was coordinating attacks with V1 Raikage. It doesn't take a genius to realize she can react to his attacks. She can react to him just fine and perform the seals and get the mist up. I know it probably blows your mind that Itachi can't just beat down the Mizukage with taijutsu before she can do anything, but that is the truth.

Again, operating under the assumption that Mei can not just dodge and form the seals. Which is what she does here. Itachi is not infallible. It does not take a genius to realize that Kakashi/Kurenai could react to his taijutsu ability/speed, amaterasu can be avoided through blocking LoS, speed, and/or bunshins, genjutsu can be avoided through avoiding eye contact, bunshins, and/or getting out of range, and Susano kills Itachi. He just isn't as strong as you want to believe.


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## Vice (Jul 8, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> that just shows how inconsistent and full of shit the anti itachi brigade is



Or I just haven't updated it in a while.


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## Turrin (Jul 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It's a feat that can't be quantified because we don't know how strong Izuna was or what Jutsu he could use, and we have no idea how Tobirama managed to land that final blow because we didn't see.


Both you and Vice are wrong. The feat doesn't prove that Tobirama is stronger than Itachi, since we don't know how powerful Izuna was in comparison to Itachi. Personally I struggle to imagine Izuna who has such little significance in the plot being stronger than Itachi, but that's just my opinion.

However the feat is quantifiable to a certain extent. We know Tobirama defeated an MS user who had been training since childhood and even sparred with Madara growing up. Tobirama defeating an MS user is certainly a impressive feat that should tell us a decent amount about Tobirama's capabilities in this fight. For instance we can Tobirama knows how to combat Sharingan Genjutsu and Uchiha's enhanced reactions with Sharingan prediction.We also know he can handle some level of MS techniques, as otherwise we'd have to assume Izuna was the first MS user to never get his own unique technique, which is just a silly assumption. Also if he moved fast enough where he was able to blitz Izuna, that probably means that Amaterasu isn't landing on the dude easily. 

So Tobirama beating Izuna should prove even back than he could handle himself well against Sharingan/MS. 

Also in terms of arguments for who would win this match, I think perhaps the best argument someone could make for who'd win at this point is taking a look at the fact that Tobirama beat an MS user many years  before he became Nindaime Hokage and eventually died. So while I agree we can't tell Izuna's exact strength in relation to Itachi's & heck I'd even go so far as saying Itachi is probably > Izuna, but at the same time I can't imagine Itachi is THAT much stronger than Izuna. So to me it seems unlikely that with many more years to hone his craft Tobirama would not be able to at least have a good shot of defeating any MS user, even if they are stronger than Izuna to a certain extent.

Barring Kishi revealing a twist where Tobirama became rustier like Hanzo.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I know the title sounds bad, but it isn't really.
> 
> This is one-on-one with full restoration for each match, guys. Chill.
> 
> ...



The Kage... _without_ restrictions, or special conditions attached? 



> Hashirama



Hashirama absolutely destroys Itachi. He handled a stronger version of Susanoo (Perfect Susanoo), and arguably a stronger more efficient version of Amaterasu (Kagutsuchi).

Plus the sheer versatility of Hashirama's Mokuton is insane, he can simultaneously defend himself and attack Itachi. Given Hashirama uses actual tree roots for his jutsu (as per se the third databook, with some support from a pre-skip page), he can probably send Mokuton beneath Susanoo and probably end Itachi quickly. Itachi will be forced to jump, no doubt, but just simple Mokuton gives him trouble, so when you toss in things like his Genjutsu in the mix... it becomes impossible to say 'Itachi wins'. 

I don't think Sage Mode is even needed.



> Tobirama



Given what we've got from the manga and databooks. I've got reason to believe Tobirama is very skilled with Suiton, has at least the untagged version of Hiraishin and to a degree the tagged version of Hiraishin. Obviously the latter isn't to the standard Minato can use, but good enough for battle. 
Also I've got reason to believe he's a pretty decent Shunshin user, given we're told that it is a big deal his Shunshin is surpassed... by one of thee greatest Shunshin users in the manga. 

With this skill set, you can make a case for him to win. 
Anything without Susanoo is basically suicide seeing as Tobirama can just randomly use Suiton or use Hiraishin to get an advantage, or even Hiraishingiri.

With Susanoo things become a complex for Tobirama. The only argument you can make is he would've marked Itachi prior Susanoo. But with full knowledge, Itachi would use Susanoo right away. So you can say Itachi. However that depends on if you think a 'tag-less' Hiraishin can teleport within Susanoo or not. I refer to Itachi's highest Susanoo form ("lvl 4"), btw.



> Hiruzen (old)



Possibly a draw. With full knowledge, and the feats we've got to work with you can say Hiruzen would opt for the Shikifuujin. But then you can argue Hiruzen has nothing to get past Susanoo lvl 4.
With hype you can infer something considering his reputation as the "professor".



> Minato



Minato stomps. Basically the Tobirama argument, minus the Suiton and Hiraishingiri. More so considering we're currently being led to believe that Minato is a superior Tobirama. We know for a fact Minato can tag the environment, redirect attacks and is very quick on his toes. So Itachi will have a hard time keeping up with Minato, and very easily could fall for a clone trick... a Hiraishin trick too (even with Susanoo, lvl 4) if he walks over a marked location. Its really a matter of time for Minato to beat Itachi.

But that time is drastically cut considering that KCM Minato is an even more superior version of Minato. So whatever you could argue KCM Naruto can do to get past Susanoo (except mentioning the mini Bijuu-bomb), you can generalise to Minato. You can also factor in the fact that KCM will increase Minato's already insane physical speed. 

You can also factor in the toad summoning contract, thus the Ni Dai Sennin-- but that's overkill.



> Tsunade



Itachi wins. Tsunade hasn't given anyone reason to think she can beat Itachi.



> Sandaime Kazekage



A bit hard to call considering the nature of Jiton. Though due to the fact Itachi's Susanoo lvl 4 exists, Itachi will eventually land a decisive hit with Totsuka whilst Yata protects him. I don't think the iron sand can get through this Susanoo's exterior.



> Gaara's Dad



Same as the above. The only difference is Gaara's dad uses gold dust instead of iron sand.



> Gaara



He'll put up a better fight than his predecessors. However if he can't spawn enough sand, than Susanoo will beat him. If he can spawn a lot of sand like he did with Kimimaro, then he can arguably use it in a similar fashion like he did against Madara. Though without Oonoki backing him up, Gaara would have to focus on other tactics, like using Suna Bunshins to distract Itachi whilst the real Gaara yanks Itachi out.

Without Susanoo, I doubt Itachi is a threat to Gaara. Don't bother saying "Tsukuyomi" as it is unlikely Itachi will get too close to Gaara.



> Muu



I think Muu would stomp. With full knowledge, Muu would obviously go invisible, take find a good angle then Jinton the hell out of Itachi. 



> Oonoki



Given Oonoki can't become invisible, he can't ninjastomp Itachi. But becoming extremely light (his weight altering jutsu) allows him to move pretty quick. It is possible to argue that with this he'll eventually Jinton the hell out of Itachi, or make Itachi heavy then Jinton him. 

I reckon Oonoki will win more times than not.



> Trollkage



I don't see Itachi getting out of his mirage at all. 



> Yagura



I guess I have to assume he had a Killer Bee style mastery over the Sanbi. 
With that premise you can argue he can take this with version two, using his Suiton to reflect attacks and using the mini-Bijuu-dama attacks a version 2 Naruto used. Allowing with that arms shiz Han/Naruto did too.

But the case isn't so strong that you can't say Itachi won't eventually Totsuka him. 



> Mei
> Sandaime Raikage
> A



I have no reason to believe these three can get the job done.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 8, 2013)

> Hashirama



Hashirama beats the _Susano’o_ off of Itachi and proceeds to smear him across the ground no difficulty because he's Hashirama and he can do that.



> Tobirama



Tobirama might be able to create a couple _Kage Bunshin_ as soon as he senses _Amaterasu_ building, but then I’m sure they all get taken out and he follows. Suitons won't budge a higher leveled _Susano'o_ and Tobirama isn't as hard to hit as Minato.

Itachi mid difficulty.



> Hiruzen (old)



In straight up close-quarters I'm still feeling a slight edge goes to Hiruzen. He's dealt with an enemy noticeably faster than him while extremely tired already, he should be able to deal with Itachi before he exhausts himself at least, and Itachi certainly doesn't want to take a hit from Enma when he has no particularly impressive durability. The added fact that Enma can quickly sprout additional limbs to attack Itachi is also a great bonus- not that Itachi won't see him transforming, but it's still dangerous when it's that close. But imo, the true game-breaker here is _Karasu Bunshin_. I don't see how Hiruzen would extinguish it from a typical _Kage Bunshin_, and if he attacks one head on in hopes of conserving chakra the explosion might take him out of the fight, if not it will definitely hinder him too much to win afterwards.

Itachi wins with likely low difficulty.



> Minato





Minato's offense isn't going to be effective in getting through the "ultimate defense" of _Susano'o_, but Itachi's offense isn't going to be effective in tagging a Minato that's warping around the field with _Hiraishin_. Minato knows he is going to need to evade until Itachi depletes his chakra reserves while keeping seals somewhere near him at all times so he doesn't chance deactivating _Susano'o_. I don't think there's much Itachi could do to avoid such a tactic unless he tried to encircle himself in _Amaterasu_ or something, but while that keeps Minato away for fear of burning it keeps him out of Itachi's attack range as well, which wouldn't do anything for him. Perhaps Itachi could accomplish something if he manifested _Amaterasu_ and immediately used maybe two _Karasu Bunshin_ behind the line of sight shield, then hope Minato stabs one and takes an explosion to the face.

Could go either way imo, but I guess I lean toward Minato ever so slightly.



> Tsunade



Itachi isn't going near her for a Taijutsu exchange. Tsunade's ability to automatically regenerate without handseals is great but the _Mangekyo Sharingan_ can effectively bypass that. He has full knowledge, meaning he should go straight to _Amaterasu_ and then take off in the other direction to avoid Tsunade's ensuing _Amaterasu_ hugs. _Totsuka no Tsurugi_ works, too, and she can't chase him anywhere if she's sealed. Even if Katsuyu miraculously comes out before Itachi's use of one of those two jutsu, he uses _Amaterasu_ a few times since she'll try to split off the burning parts but the result is pretty much the same. Literally her only hope would be to _Shunshin_ into him during his MS refractory period- which I'm having a lot of trouble picturing since he wouldn't want to be anywhere in her range in the first place (and she would still die from _Amaterasu_ later).

Itachi wins with mid difficulty.



> Sandaime Kazekage
> 
> Gaara's Dad
> 
> Gaara



I think these three can go together. It's not unreasonable to think that the use of a _Kekkei Genkai_ through indirect and unnatural means could be inferior to the capabilities of the original user, so I'd say the 3rd KK would be noticeably superior to what we've seen in Sasori, which would be stomped. Still, I'd say all three should erect a sand defense against _Amaterasu_ during its brief (but long enough) build up with full knowledge, but they can't put up anything that would stop the _Totsuka no Tsurugi_ from stabbing through and sealing them anyway without favorable environmental conditions.

Itachi wins mid-difficulty again for every Kazekage.



> Muu
> 
> Oonoki



I'm not really sure if Muu's invisibility will work against the Sharingan. _Jinton: Genkai Hakuri no Jutsu_ has a charge time that Itachi can beat at this distance. If either Tsuchikage tries to create a golem to keep him away I can still see Itachi simply maneuvering around it and following up with _Katon: Hosenka Tsumabeni_, though if that doesn't work _Susano'o_ could quickly knock it down and end either right after.

Itachi wins likely low difficulty.



> Trollkage



I don’t believe Nidaime Mizukage’s got the time to both summon the clam and then let the hallucinogenic mist take effect or get Joki Boy going before he gets finished off, and he doesn't really have any quicker jutsus to use other than _Mizudeppo no Jutsu_ which should hardly be any sort of threat. I believe Itachi could see through the genjutsu regardless, though.

Itachi should win almost no difficulty.



> Yagura



Itachi should hardly have any trouble at all defeating him while he's in human form from what we’ve seen of him.

Itachi wins almost zero difficulty against his human form, if Yagura turns into Isobu Itachi downs him with mid-difficulty using _Amaterasu_, I guess.



> Mei



. . . Mei’s offense functions as her defense, but Itachi’s jutsu execution speed outweighs her own (impressive as it is), so at this distance he should take her out rather quickly. She could be an issue with _Kirigakure_/_Komu no Jutsu_ layering if they were further apart, but this close. . .

Itachi wins with virtually no difficulty.



> Sandaime Raikage



Will _Totsuka_ even pierce this guy? He’s in a similar situation to Tsunade with _Amaterasu_, though, and Itachi knows it.

Itachi wins with mid difficulty.



> A



They start fairly close, if Ay opens with his max _Shunshin_ he might win, and if Itachi manages to get _Susano'o_ up in time to defend Ay's best bet is through attrition, but I'm not sure how well that will work out since he can't keep applying pressure outside of melee range.

It could go either way really.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 8, 2013)

I love when people argue that Clam > Itachi in genjutsu.


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## Darkberry (Jul 8, 2013)

Hashirama - Yeah...Hashi stomps. 

Tobirama - This guy has done jack but wins if we allow powerscaling and hype

Hiruzen (old) - Itachi wins. He's faster than him. Probably Susaano wuldn't be needed.too much haxx

Minato - ahhhhhh.... the never ending debate  . Tagging him would be very difficult but eventually Minato wins or could go either way, you never know with 

Tsunade - Itachi stomps

Sandaime Kazekage - Itachi stomps

Gaara's Dad - Itachi stomps

Gaara - Amaterasu + Tsukuyomi GG

Muu - could go either way. Depends if Itachi can see him if he's invisible 

Oonoki - Itachi again. This guy is too haxxed but Oonoki would put up a fight

Trollkage - Itachi stomps. You can's beat the king in his own game

Yagura - Itachi stomps unless the Bijuu is included 

Mei - Otachi stomps for obvious reasons 

Sandaime Raikage - Can raikage destroy Final form Sussano? I dont think so. Itachi can win with Totsuka or Tsukuyomi 

A - same as the above pretty much. A can's get past Final Sussano and he can's lolblitz him because RM Nardo couldn's. Itachi wins with spamming Tostuka + Amaterasu genjustu help alot too, A should be careful


And also HELLO to Naruto Battledome  !!!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Yeah, and watch his stamina decrease by absolutely *enormous *proportions.



Based on what ? Itachi is not sick here.


> I hope you understand that Itachi is _not _Sasuke in regards to stamina and from what we've seen, he used each Mangekyo technique once (with the exception of Amaterasu) before dropping dead.


Read above.




> Fact of the matter is, Itachi isn't nearly as versatile as Sasuke is with his Mangekyo techniques and his relatively low chakra capacity ensures that A has plenty of time to avoid each one. Conclusion?


He is smarter than Sasuke which became evident during Kabuto vs Bros fight, taking the position as the "brains" of the team.

I don't know what you are trying to get at but Sasuke @ the time he fought A didn't even have a proper Susano'o, and he certainly didn't have Tsukiyomi.



> He isn't hitting A.


He is hitting A, alot easier than you think.




> When A was flat-out yelling at Tsunade, concerned for her safety, and not paying attention to his surroundings at all. It doesn't help that he was basically stuck under the weight of Susano'o whilst talking.



Its not like A dropped his pants and bend over for Madara to fuck him.
He was aware that he was fighting Madara, he just turned his attention to Tsunade for a split second and boom, he was caught.




> The only way I see Itachi pulling a hit from six o'clock is through Kage Bunshin feints, but then, I question his capacity to continue using Mangekyo Sharingan techniques if he does so.


You probably shouldn't, even sick Itachi was capable of using those.



> Against Yata Mirror? Perhaps little.



He'll just flat out bounce back off Yata mirror.
A couldn't even damage Madara's ribcage armor properly.




> Against the back? If A continues zipping by, striking the rear of the chakra construct and powered by his top-speed levels (he broke through Sasuke's ribcage in a stationary position), I don't see Itachi's defense lasting very long. And that's not what I'm trying to contest; I'm arguing that A will win through sheer attrition, not sheer force.


He can get behind Itachi once, next time Itachi will anticipate his move and react accordingly. 
Besides, no matter how fast A is, once he hits a target that he can't just mow down, he'll have to stop and then regain his movement. During that time, he can be hit by Amaterasu, or Totsuka or Magatama.






> That's not reacting, Grimmjowsensei.



That is reacting.
Or maybe you don't know what reacting means ? 




> We not only have on-screen panels of A _completely_ vanished from the battlefield, but also Karin's direct statement that Sasuke could not follow A's top-speed movements, at all. If you're going to suggest Sasuke somehow reacted just because he activated his Blaze Release you're also going to have to explain his 'knowing' A was there despite clearly not looking at him.


Sasuke reacted @ A disspearing. Because he clearly noticed dude escaped his vision and activated blaze release.
Karin confirmed this by saying "Sasuke can't follow raikage, so he activates a defense that can protect from all sides."




> Is Sasuke a sensor now, Grimmjowsensei?


Who said he was ? 

edit : 



Turrin said:


> Both you and Vice are wrong. The feat doesn't prove that Tobirama is stronger than Itachi, since we don't know how powerful Izuna was in comparison to Itachi. Personally I struggle to imagine Izuna who has such little significance in the plot being stronger than Itachi, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> However the feat is quantifiable to a certain extent. We know Tobirama defeated an MS user who had been training since childhood and even sparred with Madara growing up. Tobirama defeating an MS user is certainly a impressive feat that should tell us a decent amount about Tobirama's capabilities in this fight. For instance we can Tobirama knows how to combat Sharingan Genjutsu and Uchiha's enhanced reactions with Sharingan prediction.We also know he can handle some level of MS techniques, as otherwise we'd have to assume Izuna was the first MS user to never get his own unique technique, which is just a silly assumption. Also if he moved fast enough where he was able to blitz Izuna, that probably means that Amaterasu isn't landing on the dude easily.
> 
> ...




there are lots of assumptions in there, and all of them favor Tobirama, I wonder why 

.

For all we know, Izuna could be less skilled than Itachi in base attributes(ninjutsu/taijutsu), could be slower, less intelligent and less proficient in genjutsu.
He might also have inferior MS jutsus.

TBH there is a possibility that Izuna could be much weaker than Itachi.


He could be around the same level as well. That is also a possibility.

However even if you assume that he is around Itachi's level, that alone can't designate how a fight between Itachi and Tobirama could go down, because Itachi and Izuna are two different people. 
Unless they have the exact same skillset, exact same intelligence, you can't make a healthy argument just by looking @  the finishing blow Tobirama delivered on Izuna.


----------



## ImSerious (Jul 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> IOr just go by feats insteadp



If we go by feats when it comes to someone like Tobirama we wouldnt we stayingfaithful to the manga. We'd be putting one of the ''strongest soldiers'' below the level of peeps like Tsunade.

Or better, Rikudo's sons vs konohamaru. You still wanna go by feats?



> or even use hype if you like, and state that Itachi annihilates the outdated version of minato.



As a joke?



> Portrayal is even more ambigious than hype, there is no way to rely on it in BD.



If anything portrayal is the most reliable thing we can go on.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 8, 2013)

Vice said:


> Are you fucking serious? He did it on panel.


So I guess the last panel of a fight we didn't see at all counts as the whole fight, right? Going by such kind of logic Hashirama casually landed a final blow on Madara (sorry for copying the example, but I couldn't find another one) means Hashirama shitstomped on Madara? You're indeed wrong, good sir.

First, you're implying all MS users share the same level of skills and raw power, which is wrong. We don't know how powerful Izuna is to a MS Itachi, heck, we don't even tons of Tobirama's feats by now. Second, there ways of beating your enemy through strategy and maybe Izuna was too tired to dodge?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 8, 2013)

Jagger said:


> So I guess the last panel of a fight we didn't see at all counts as the whole fight, right?



Chiyo casually solos Sasori. (No way Itachi can do that.)



Base Naruto casually solos Pain. (No way Itachi can do that.)



Lee casually solos Madara. (No way Itachi can do that.)


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 8, 2013)

Dude! And how'd I forget Itachi casually soloing Nagato! 

(You know Vice appreciates this out of context panel.)


----------



## Jagger (Jul 8, 2013)

No need to anger him, but thanks for the examples.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Jul 8, 2013)

If Izuna was said to be essentially Madara's equal before EMS was gotten, then I am sure Izuna got Susano and since they were brothers probably similar Mangekyou abilities. He has abilities that can get around sharingan genjutsu, amaterasu, and even potentially Susano in the form of precision sensing, experience, Kage Bunshins, and teleportation. He has defeated a MS user per the canon someone who appeared to be a rival to him.. He has experience fighting the sharingan and the Mangekyou. Without even seeing him in a a full fight, Tobirama has the hype and feats to suggest he could beat Itachi at the very least hold his own. Tobirama is likely above him since without even knowing much about him it is already debatable.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 8, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> If Izuna was said to be essentially Madara's equal before EMS was gotten



That was right before Itachi told Sasuke about how Madara ripped the eyes out of Izuna's face, which was a lie... there's no real credibility to the story, and even if there were, we don't know if they remained equals.

I say that because, if I remember correctly, the narrative about them being equals ended with them achieving the Mangekyō together. Their progression from that point wasn't covered. I'll go and check now though.

*Edit:* Actually, the statement about them being equals preceded them even awakening their Sharingan, let alone the Mangekyō Sharingan. After awakening their Mangekyō Sharingan, Madara became the leader, indicating superiority.

So, as many have pointed out, the panel in which Tobirama landed a successful hit on Izuna was one where no Susano'o was shown, so there's no reason to assume Izuna is equal to 463-Sasuke with only the Susano'o rib cage.

Let alone Itachi, who has stronger abilities and is significantly more skilled overall. If we're going to hype Tobirama, then it's best to stick to him moving his finger, but even then, Sasuke didn't think that merited the Mangekyō.


----------



## αce (Jul 8, 2013)

Izuna was never Madara's equal. When Madara claimed that Hashirama was stronger than him, Izuna was shocked that someone was stronger than his older brother, implying he was inferior to him all along.


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## Jagger (Jul 9, 2013)

I still don't know why you guys still believe at this point anything of what Itachi said. It was full of bs to confuse Sasuke and make him hate him more and hate on "Madara" (Obito at the moment), the only piece of truth inside that speech was how to get EMS and the real reason behind the Kyuubi's attack.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> That was right before Itachi told Sasuke about how Madara ripped the eyes out of Izuna's face, which was a lie... there's no real credibility to the story, and even if there were, we don't know if they remained equals.
> 
> I say that because, if I remember correctly, the narrative about them being equals ended with them achieving the Mangekyō together. Their progression from that point wasn't covered. I'll go and check now though.
> 
> ...


Wasn't the only lie told that Kurama attacking was an accident? Thought everything else was true. I could be wrong of course. OOOOOHHHH!!! Itachi says that. Ha my bad thought this was part of Obito's conversation. Even the part about them being equals. Yeah Itachi says that not Obito.

Well if Itachi said that then I suppose it could be wrong. But that seems like one part of the story that wasn't inaccurate. I mean the story was based in truth. Just not really the stealing eyes part.

The story encompasses those abilities. They were constantly competing even after their sharingans developed and their quest to outdo each other led to them both unlocking the Mangekyou. Both were considered the strongest of the clan. If we believe this aspect of the story to be true, then both were on some similar standing of strength. Before getting their sharingans, after they got them, and once they got their Mangekyous.

Susano could have been down due to exhaustion. Tobirama and Izuna seemed to be rivals thus roughly equals and for Tobirama to land such a blow they were likely at the end of their battle. Logically someone with a Mangekyou and was able to compete with Madara Uchiha is likely superior to Sasuke with just a rib cage Susano.

Itachi has stronger abilities and is significantly more skilled than who exactly? That logic is flawed whether you are talking about Sasuke, Tobirama, or Izuna. And Sasuke didn't think using his Mangekyou on zombies bound to Orochimaru's control was necessary? I think you can tell why that doesn't matter here. And for the record, Sasuke didn't think the sharingan was necessary on Killer Bee either. And even when he did use it, he got run through. Super arrogant gentleman.



αce said:


> Izuna was never Madara's equal. When Madara claimed that Hashirama was stronger than him, Izuna was shocked that someone was stronger than his older brother, implying he was inferior to him all along.


Itachi's story appears to say something different. Being surprised that someone is so strong is not indicative of anything. Kakashi was impressed by Lee's speed but was still faster. Being impressed/surprised says nothing about superiority or inferiority unless a statement comparing strengths comes after it. He could easily be surprised that someone is stronger than his brother because that means he is stronger than Izuna himself. Also they were going back and forth. This could just be a time early in their sibling rivalry where Madara had the advantage. Again, this is implying Itachi was telling the truth concerning this part of the story.


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 9, 2013)

He loses to all of the male hokage (hype hirzen and tobirama > itachi).

He probably wins against Oonoki, Muu, Sandaime Raikage, Ei, and Yagura but they would all push him, maybe beat him.

He decisively beats the rest.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> He loses to all of the male hokage (hype hirzen and tobirama > itachi).



You sexist pig. 



ueharakk said:


> Sandaime Raikage



The Sandaime Raikage was beat by a Sage Naruto clone's basic Rasengan but is going to push Itachi to the limit? Shame on you. With that sort of scaling, Itachi makes him stab himself with normal Sharingan genjutsu.


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## ueharakk (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The Sandaime Raikage was beat by a Sage Naruto clone's basic Rasengan but is going to push Itachi to the limit? Shame on you. With that sort of scaling, Itachi makes him stab himself with normal Sharingan genjutsu.



if we powerscale sandaime raikage, then that makes a single sage Naruto clone > hachibi. 

If we have enough feats from both candidates, then scaling or a hype-based comparison is not needed.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> if we powerscale sandaime raikage, then that makes a single sage Naruto clone > hachibi.
> 
> If we have enough feats from both candidates, then scaling or a hype-based comparison is not needed.



Even from that angle, Itachi would panel the Hachibi with Amaterasu, right? Or wreck it with the Totsuka? I'm just not seeing the 3rd Raikage stacking up...


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Even from that angle, Itachi would panel the Hachibi with Amaterasu, right?



wait hold on, if we are arguing portrayal, then you can't bring in a 1 vs 1 feat-wise comparison, you've got to simply stick to portrayal.  And of course depending on the distances and if the hachibi has full knowledge it could very well one-panel itachi with a bijuudama.

Finally, if you are going to use a featwise itachi vs hachibi argument, then you'd have to explain by feats how SM Naruto's clone beats the Hachibi if it's in fact > Sandaime raikage.  Else it's a double standard.

So you'd end up with itachi > Hachibi > SM Naruto clone > Sandaime raikage = Hachibi.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> And of course depending on the distances and if the hachibi has full knowledge it could very well one-panel itachi with a bijuudama.



I think if the beast bomb couldn't kill the Sandaime Raikage, then it's not going to work against Susano'o, let alone the Yata Mirror.



ueharakk said:


> Finally, if you are going to use a featwise itachi vs hachibi argument, then you'd have to explain by feats how SM Naruto's clone beats the Hachibi



Fair point.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> So you'd end up with itachi > Hachibi > SM Naruto clone > Sandaime raikage = Hachibi.



I see no fault in this  


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Bonly (Jul 9, 2013)

I can only see Hashi and Minato being able to beat Itachi more times then not. The rest don't have the feats+portrayal over Itachi's feats+portrayal to win more times then not.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 9, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> He takes them all out bar Hashirama, who curbstomps him.



this.

only other possible victors are minato and tobirama which I doubt


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> If we go by feats when it comes to someone like Tobirama we wouldnt we stayingfaithful to the manga. We'd be putting one of the ''strongest soldiers'' below the level of peeps like Tsunade.


Going by feats he is.



> Or better, Rikudo's sons vs konohamaru. You still wanna go by feats?


Rikodou's sons don't have a display on screen. So they are banned in BD.





> As a joke?


As the truth.



> If anything portrayal is the most reliable thing we can go on.


Portrayal isn't reliable. It is not quantifiable. It is not substantial.
Even hype can be substantial at times (X is stronger than Y). 
Portrayal is utterly useless.


Just because Tobirama intimidated Oro & Co doesn't mean anything in regards to a hypotethical match up.

Suigetsu is scared shitless of Orochimaru even when he doesn't have his arms. Yet he has shown no concern over Raikage or Hachibee.

Get that shit out of here now.



ueharakk said:


> if we powerscale sandaime raikage, then that makes a single sage Naruto clone > hachibi.
> 
> If we have enough feats from both candidates, then scaling or a hype-based comparison is not needed.




SM Naruto was able to defeat Sandaime Raikage with full intel(which he normally wouldn't have access to). He also did it through trickery.

This is a matter of a match up. 
The human sized wound Sm Naruto could inflict on Sandaime Raikage would be useless against Hachibee.

This is like conveniently ignoring knowledge you have on the subject.


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## Deadking (Jul 9, 2013)




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## ImSerious (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Going by feats he is.



I know, which is why im saying we wouldnt be staying faithful to the manga.



> Rikodou's sons don't have a display on screen. So they are banned in BD.



Are they actuallt banned or is no one simply dumb enough to create a thread about them(which further proves my point)?



> As the truth.







> Just because Tobirama intimidated Oro & Co doesn't mean anything in regards to a hypotethical match up.



That means very much in regards to a hypothetical match up.



> Suigetsu is scared shitless of Orochimaru even when he doesn't have his arms. Yet he has shown no concern over Raikage or Hachibee.
> 
> Get that shit out of here now.



Maybe because Oro is a pedobear.


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## Turrin (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> there are lots of assumptions in there, and all of them favor Tobirama, I wonder why
> .


I don't know how you got any of the things you said from my post, when I specifically said Tobirama beating Izuna doesn't mean he'd be able to defeat Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

> CS2 Sasuke is faster than Base Sasuke? Didn't know that. Scans please?



In case you forgot, the CS a watered down SM. The CS2 is a little closer to SM. That in itself suggests that it provides a speed boost, chakra quality boost... just like SM, albeit weaker.



Strategoob said:


> I love when people argue that Clam > Itachi in genjutsu.



There's no reason to dispute it. Itachi isn't a sensor, so he can't track the clam.

The only Itachi arguments against the clam are "the KINGGGGG" or "he reverses it". The former is obviously a silly argument to make. Whereas the latter, though it is obviously more feasible than the former, you've got to prove Itachi can actually reverse a Genjutsu of that level. Further, that he can stop the clam from casting the Genjutsu; if the clam is in a mirage it will still cast the illusion... Itachi stays trapped in the illusion waiting for Trollkage to one-shot him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> I know, which is why im saying we wouldnt be staying faithful to the manga.



Without feats there is no way to debate who'd defeat who in BD.
Tobirama in Bd is Tobirama who fought against Hiruzen.




> Are they actuallt banned or is no one simply dumb enough to create a thread about them(which further proves my point)?


Go ahead and create a thread with RS sons vs anyone.

And see how long it will take a mod to trash it with the reason being "RS sons have no feats."



*Spoiler*: __ 












> That means very much in regards to a hypothetical match up.



It wouldn't if you hadn't cropped the rest of my post.



> Maybe because Oro is a pedobear.


Or maybe because it means shit.



Turrin said:


> I don't know how you got any of the things you said from my post, when I specifically said Tobirama beating Izuna doesn't mean he'd be able to defeat Itachi.



You are right, I gotta give you credit. This was one of your better posts about Itachi.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In case you forgot, the CS a watered down SM. The CS2 is a little closer to SM. That in itself suggests that it provides a speed boost, chakra quality boost... just like SM, albeit weaker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sharingan will allow him to see through the genjutsu, he doesn't need to sense the clam, he will see it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sharingan will allow him to see through the genjutsu, he doesn't need to sense the clam, he will see it.



Yes: it allows Itachi to see he is within Genjutsu.

No: he won't see the clam. Everyone within the illusion couldn't see the clam, only a sensor could detect the clam when he was far away from the location it initially cast the illusion.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 9, 2013)

The Sharingan allows one to see _through_ genjutsu not just see that you are in one. If the only effect of the genjutsu is to create false images, then that suffices to defeat the illusion.


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## Vice (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Dude! And how'd I forget Itachi casually soloing Nagato!
> 
> (You know Vice appreciates this out of context panel.)



You guys take it out of context all the time anyway, what's the point of using this example ironically now?


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jul 9, 2013)

Only Ppl that beat Itachi full knowledge or not is 

Hashi & Tobirama.

Oonoki has never fell to a Genjutsu via manga and faired the best against Madara.  Itachi gets turned to dust.

Everybody else puts up a fight trying to avoid being caught in a Genjutsu, but is either caught anyway or Susanoo owns with Yata Shield & Totsuka sword.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> The Sharingan allows one to see _through_ genjutsu not just see that you are in one. If the only effect of the genjutsu is to create false images, then that suffices to defeat the illusion.



Sasuke could see he was in C's Genjutsu. Though you could call that "seeing through" the Genjutsu too.

It suffices to defeat the illusion _normally_. Except with the clam, it is constantly casting the Genjutsu- until it stops to defend itself.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Further, that he can stop the clam from casting the Genjutsu; if the clam is in a mirage it will still cast the illusion... Itachi stays trapped in the illusion waiting for Trollkage to one-shot him.



So... the clam solos? 


*Spoiler*: _Contraindicatory data_ 






			
				databook said:
			
		

> Kekkei Genkai: Sharingan
> Users: Hatake Kakashi, Uchiha Sasuke
> Support, Short, Mid, Long ranges. Rank: none.
> 
> ...



But really, portrayal should be sufficient for the clam not soloing Itachi with genjutsu. It never trumped any genjutsu masters, or Sharingan, or both. It's hard to take the argument seriously, but maybe it's just me.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 9, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> Oonoki has never fell to a Genjutsu via manga and faired the best against Madara.  Itachi gets turned to dust.



Oonoki had backup, Madara wasn't fighting him seriously anyway, and it's still not confirmed if Madara possesses the same MS Jutsu as Itachi or not.



> Everybody else puts up a fight trying to avoid being caught in a Genjutsu, but is either caught anyway or Susanoo owns with Yata Shield & Totsuka sword.



I see no reason Oonoki would be exempt from this at 5m.



Turrin said:


> Both you and Vice are wrong. The feat doesn't prove that Tobirama is stronger than Itachi, since we don't know how powerful Izuna was in comparison to Itachi. Personally I struggle to imagine Izuna who has such little significance in the plot being stronger than Itachi, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> However the feat is quantifiable to a certain extent. We know Tobirama defeated an MS user who had been training since childhood and even sparred with Madara growing up. Tobirama defeating an MS user is certainly a impressive feat that should tell us a decent amount about Tobirama's capabilities in this fight. For instance we can Tobirama knows how to combat Sharingan Genjutsu and Uchiha's enhanced reactions with Sharingan prediction.We also know he can handle some level of MS techniques, as otherwise we'd have to assume Izuna was the first MS user to never get his own unique technique, which is just a silly assumption. Also if he moved fast enough where he was able to blitz Izuna, that probably means that Amaterasu isn't landing on the dude easily.
> 
> ...



The feat is unquantifiable.

Can you tell me how strong Izuna was? Can you tell me what Jutsu he had?

No?

Did we see how Tobirama managed to get into a position to kill him?

No?

Then the significance of Tobirama landing the finishing blow is unknown at this point.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Possibly a draw. With full knowledge, and the feats we've got to work with you can say Hiruzen would opt for the Shikifuujin. But then you can argue Hiruzen has nothing to get past Susanoo lvl 4.
> With hype you can infer something considering his reputation as the "professor".



Hiruzen has a 3 in speed and admitted probably inferiority to Orochimaru, who admitted certain inferiority to Itachi. How on Earth he is supposed to execute Shiki Fujin on Itachi successfully is beyond my ability to understand.

Even if he did, I see no reason he'd be able to seal Itachi completely if he couldn't do so to Orochimaru.



> I think Muu would stomp. With full knowledge, Muu would obviously go invisible, take find a good angle then Jinton the hell out of Itachi.



At what is Itachi doing at 5m while Muu does this? Sitting on his hands?



> Given Oonoki can't become invisible, he can't ninjastomp Itachi. But becoming extremely light (his weight altering jutsu) allows him to move pretty quick. It is possible to argue that with this he'll eventually Jinton the hell out of Itachi, or make Itachi heavy then Jinton him.
> 
> I reckon Oonoki will win more times than not.



Oonoki would have to physically touch Itachi to manipulate his weight; that isn't going to happen. And since he isn't invisible, there's no argument anymore that Itachi would be unable to target him. Jinton can be dodged; Amaterasu cannot.



> I don't see Itachi getting out of his mirage at all.



Why not? It's Genjutsu. Itachi has a high-level Doujutsu and arguably the best skill we've seen in that area. The Mizukage's only hype is that he is naturally a Yin-style user.



LostSelf said:


> Izuna might have been able to use Amaterasu if we consider that he was Tobirama's oponent [1].
> 
> He could've been refering to Madara as well. So who knows... Anyway we know that Tobirama should be experienced in fighting the black flames.



Possibly, but the bottom line is that we don't know.



Ennoia said:


> To be fair, Deidara was not trying to lose Naruto and Kakashi because he was trying to capture Naruto. I would not say Naruto and Kakashi were keeping up or tracking Deidara because Deidara was not trying to flee.



Fair point, although you'd think Deidara could at least get out of their sight and come back to ambush them if he were capable.



Unknown said:


> Muu is still a sensor for this fight isn't it?, then his speed feats that depend on his sensing skill are as valid as any other.



Muu's speed doesn't increase either way; that said, he is no faster than Itachi.



> Also RM Naruto's chakra claws didn't blitz Muu.
> 1- Muu was performing a jinton, and jinton users can't move while they are preparing the jinton.
> 2- Muu reacted to RM Naruto's chakra claw and divided himself just in time to trick R Naruto, a sensor, Oonoki and Gaara.



1. Says who? I don't even see a logical reason for this; it's not like a Jinton user's feet are tied or their levitation ability deactivates.
2. Muu split after Naruto's attack connected. And if he splits, he won't be able to use Jinton or even his invisibility, apparently.



> Many people still think that RM Naruto+Oonoki+Gaara's combo defeated Muu, while the truth is that Muu was one of the Edos that weren't defeated till Itachi made Kabuto cancel the Edo Tensei.



Yeah, and by that point, he was running away from fodder.



> Muu has a reaction speed high enough to deal with Itachi's combat speed with easy.



Again, Muu is no faster than Itachi; if Itachi attacks him, it'll connect at this range.



> Oonoki's normal flying speed is equal to Deidara's, which is fast enough to avoid CS2 Sasuke, which should be faster than MS Sasuke or EMS Sasuke. But Oonoki can make himself even faster with his weight changing technique.



Oonoki uses his weight-changing technique to levitate in the first place. His top speed was equal to Deidara's.


----------



## Kai (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke could see he was in C's Genjutsu. Though you could call that "seeing through" the Genjutsu too.
> 
> It suffices to defeat the illusion _normally_. Except with the clam, it is constantly casting the Genjutsu- until it stops to defend itself.


What is meant by "seeing through" a genjutsu is that by Oboro's genjutsu, for example, this is what Sasuke saw instead with his Sharingan.


It's no different. Itachi may see conglomerates of chakra but the mirage is not going to fool the Sharingan.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> But really, portrayal should be sufficient for the clam not soloing Itachi with genjutsu. It never trumped any genjutsu masters, or Sharingan, or both. It's hard to take the argument seriously, but maybe it's just me.[/spoiler]



Genjutsu master is a title you can also grant the Mizukage. Especially as Itachi's only unique Genjutsu feats are long range control and finger Genjutsu. Everything else is what any strong Uchiha with the Sharingan and Mangekyou Sharingan can do. 

You can post a link and flaunt the portrayal card all you like, but unless you make it relevant. Its going to be hard to readily agree with your approach. 



Nikushimi said:


> Hiruzen has a 3 in speed and admitted probably inferiority to Orochimaru, who admitted certain inferiority to Itachi. How on Earth he is supposed to execute Shiki Fujin on Itachi successfully is beyond my ability to understand.
> 
> Even if he did, I see no reason he'd be able to seal Itachi completely if he couldn't do so to Orochimaru.



Hiruzen won't be speed blitzed if that is what you're implying. Unless Itachi moves at serious KCM speed or beyond.

Its easy, if Hiruzen knows he can't do much to Susanoo. Shikifuuinjin is the only logical choice. Itachi was outsmarted by the likes of Kakashi, so I don't think he'll be able to easily stop Hiruzen from casting the Shikifuuinjin seal. 

He was unable to seal Orochimaru completely as he'd used a lot of chakra on Kage Bunshins. 



> At what is Itachi doing at 5m while Muu does this? Sitting on his hands?



He could try and attack. But against Jinton, Itachi can only retreat to using Susanoo, or get out of Muu's ideal Jinton range. Once Itachi's gone, going invisible should be easy.



> Oonoki would have to physically touch Itachi to manipulate his weight; that isn't going to happen. And since he isn't invisible, there's no argument anymore that Itachi would be unable to target him. Jinton can be dodged; Amaterasu cannot.



I doubt Itachi moves insanely fast, at least not faster than Deidara can fly. He might be able to react, possibly. But it'll be hard to make that argument seeing as Itachi isn't a sensor. Itachi's chances dramatically reduce if Oonoki starts making clones who all start using Jinton.



> Why not? It's Genjutsu. Itachi has a high-level Doujutsu and arguably the best skill we've seen in that area. The Mizukage's only hype is that he is naturally a Yin-style user.



Itachi's only best Genjutsu skill has been a finger Genjutsu that works on Chuunin levels and long range Genjutsu. Itachi's main Genjutsu hype comes from something _all_ Sharingan and Mangekyou Sharingan users can do.
Whereas the Mizukage's hype is that he's actually mastered the chakra nature which Genjutsu relies on. Couple that with a clam that just keeps on casting, and you've got a decent case for Trollkage.




Kai said:


> What is meant by "seeing through" a genjutsu is that by Oboro's genjutsu, for example, this is what Sasuke saw instead with his Sharingan.
> 
> 
> It's no different. Itachi may see conglomerates of chakra but the mirage is not going to fool the Sharingan.



Sasuke saw through C's Genjutsu too. But it didn't help him notice the two men in front of him ready to batter and cut him. Furthermore Danzo didn't immediately see a bunch of chakra when he was within Sasuke's Genjutsu.

Looking at your citations and mine, it seems Itachi wouldn't notice the mirage given it is obviously a very high level Genjutsu relative to Oboro's Genjutsu.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke could see he was in C's Genjutsu. Though you could call that "seeing through" the Genjutsu too.
> 
> It suffices to defeat the illusion _normally_. Except with the clam, it is constantly casting the Genjutsu- until it stops to defend itself.



Sasuke saw through Shi's genjutsu and that was the end of it so yeah, not seeing your point there. It doesn't matter if it's constantly cast provided the Sharingan user maintains their focus they will constantly see through it. I mean sure, maybe not every Sharingan user ever, but any highly skilled one.

P.S. Ei and Darui got to Sasuke because it took him a moment too long for him to decipher the genjutsu. But Itachi is even more skilled than Sasuke in genjutsu, and thus should uncover the illusion faster. In any case, the Danzo bit is irrelevant because he had no Sharingan to see through Sasuke's illusion with. Shisui's eye was bandaged up and the others were not connected to the optic nerve. Even if they saw through the illusion, Danzo wouldn't, because if he could see through the eyes on his arm, he wouldn't constantly be looking down to check if they were closing.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Sasuke saw through Shi's genjutsu and that was the end of it so yeah, not seeing your point there. It doesn't matter if it's constantly cast provided the Sharingan user maintains their focus they will constantly see through it. I mean sure, maybe not every Sharingan user ever, but any highly skilled one.



Sasuke wasn't aware of his surroundings. Seeing through an illusion which is constantly cast makes no difference, no matter how many times you see through it, if you cannot be aware of your surroundings.
In the time Itachi will spend seeing through the illusion over and over again. The Trollkage could be done with Itachi.



> P.S. Ei and Darui got to Sasuke because it took him a moment too long for him to decipher the genjutsu. But Itachi is even more skilled than Sasuke in genjutsu, and thus should uncover the illusion faster. In any case, the Danzo bit is irrelevant because he had no Sharingan to see through Sasuke's illusion with. Shisui's eye was bandaged up and the others were not connected to the optic nerve. Even if they saw through the illusion, Danzo wouldn't, because if he could see through the eyes on his arm, he wouldn't constantly be looking down to check if they were closing.



Well I've got to stop you right there. Itachi isn't more skilled than Sasuke in Genjutsu. The only Genjutsu skill Itachi has has that Sasuke lacks is being able to control people from long distances and a finger Genjutsu that works on Chuunin level shinobi. 
So unless you've got something which shows me that Sasuke is inferior to Itachi in Genjutsu - other than those two skills I cited - then we're led to believe they're the same. Especially as the whole thing with Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu (during the Shouten arc) was something that hyped the entire Uchiha clan, not Itachi alone. 
As such I have no reason to believe Itachi will figure out the illusion even faster. 

The Danzo point, I'll concede as I missed that detail.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 9, 2013)

Sasuke became aware of his surroundings the moment he saw through the illusion. But as Ei and Darui said, he was just a moment too late. They had already close on him. You also mistake continuous casting for _re_casting. The genjutsu is maintained, so using Kai wouldn't work because the genjutsu would come back the moment you broke it. But if you see through the illusion, you see through it in the literal sense of words. The illusion is still effecting you, so you still see the chakra, but you see it for what it is.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 9, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Or just avoid looking at his eyes. He also has to activate his sharingan mind you.



Why is this a problem?



> His finger genjutsu honestly has no feats. He caught one of the worse genjutsu fighters in the manga. This tells me nothing about it working on anyone else.



Genjutsu works the same on everyone unless they are able to break out of it.

And don't sell Naruto short; he did know how to perform Kai by that point. It just failed.



> Oonoki was able to fight by just not looking directly into a sharingan user's eyes. And Oonoki can move out of the range. He can't fly after all.



Oonoki had backup. And Itachi's range with Susano'o is 15m+, whereas the starting distance is 5m (also the prescribed range for Amaterasu ignition); Oonoki's gonna have to pull off something spectacular to pull out of that alive considering Jinton is the only thing he can use to block LOS and Amaterasu will probably just burn right through that.



> Hyping up finger genjutsu based on nothing.



The fact is that Itachi can cast Genjutsu from his fingers; you are the one arbitrarily deciding it will have no affect, for reasons you have not explained beyond "Naruto was crappy at Genjutsu."

Refresh my memory: What feats of cancelling Genjutsu does Oonoki have?



> He doesn't have to do all of this. He doesn't have to look at his eyes. Not Itachi as a whole. Then he quickly flies out of his range. Itachi can't fly. He can also make clones. So basically genjutsu fails miserably here.



You are assuming Oonoki will get a chance to do all of this even though Itachi is clearly the faster shinobi.



> CS2 Sasuke is faster than Base Sasuke? Didn't know that. Scans please?



Are you seriously asking me this or are you just being difficult?

done

done

^Even the Juin's first form offers a huge speed boost. Sasuke even said that having the three-tomoe Sharingan put his body in a condition comparable to having the Juin's first stage activated:

done

done

done

What did you think the Juin was for in the first place? It's a "super form." We even have confirmation that it is a kind of "false Sage Mode," because it uses Jugo's ability to draw in natural energy:

done

done

done

done



> And Sasuke was injured when he was running. So a tired Sasuke  outran amaterasu for a while.



You just arbitrarily made-up that Sasuke was slower because he was "tired"... There is no evidence of that. For that matter, Sasuke started running before Itachi cast Amaterasu and there isn't really a quantifiable timeframe for the pursuit that followed.



> And Oonoki has shown to be faster than Sasuke in flight especially a tired one.



My turn: Scans?



> He fell for Kakashi's bunshin feints twice. Sharingan does not help see through bunshin feints. Byakugan, sharingan, and rinnengan users have ALL fallen for them. Oonoki can make 5 bunshins. It does not matter if Itachi watches him make them. He still does not know which is the real one.



Itachi only fell for Kakashi's clone feints when his line of sight was blocked off; if Oonoki tries to perform the Jutsu right in front of Itachi, Itachi will read his seals and know that he made clones. Then he will just attack them all.



> Of course you aren't. You want Itachi to just genjutsu/blitz anyone he comes across.



...Which is why I explicitly said he loses to Hashirama and possibly Minato and Tobirama as well. 

I don't even remember saying "Genjutsu/blitz" was going to happen in most of these matches.

You are just projecting. That's entirely your fault.



> That's why your opinion around here isn't worth much.



>Implying your opinion is worth something to anyone.



> Already told you he knows to avoid eye contact per the manga. So he avoids it.



Anyone knows how to avoid eye-contact.

The catch is, he won't be able to see Amaterasu coming if he does. Or, like...any of Itachi's other attacks.



> Finger genjutsu has no legit feats. So that is useless.



That is just something you decided for yourself; you have yet to actually provide any evidence that Oonoki would be capable of breaking the Genjutsu easily if caught. Your only argument seems to be "Naruto isn't the greatest at dealing with Genjutsu" to the complete exclusion of showing that Oonoki is any better.



> What more do you want? Oonoki can fly while Itachi can't so he can also get out of range. He can also make bunshins. Pick your poison. Onooki has 3 solid counters to genjutsu. I already said he has bunshins.



And while he is worrying about all that, Itachi just blasts him with Amaterasu. Fight over.



> Itachi will have to pick a target with amaterasu. In every case, Itachi has to focus on a single target and go for it.



Amaterasu can be sweeped over a wide area, you know; it isn't fixed on a single target.



> If one bunshin is behind Itachi, one is in front, one is to the left, one is to the right, and one is above, Itachi has to pick which one he wants to hit.



And because I know I didn't start the match like that, what you're implying is that Oonoki will have a chance to do this before Itachi has a chance to lay a stream of Amaterasu across him.

Which is hilarious but false.



> As he showed against Nagato and against Sasuke, he has to pick one target at a time. Even when he had unlimited chakra lawl.



Itachi actually set two of the Cerberus summon's heads on fire at the same time with a single Amaterasu.

To say nothing of Sasuke making an entire ring of flames just by pivoting on his heel when he fought Kabuto.



> Oh and these targets aren't slow. They are fast so while he takes the few seconds to focus and chase down a clone, he has 4 more flying in on him to jinton him to hell.



Can Oonoki use Jinton while his chakra is split among clones?



> He could use Susano, but that could lose to jinton and will just drain him even more. And with bunshins on the field and when he is out of range, he can look at his eyes again because genjutsu is of no concern.



So I like how Oonoki has time to do all of this yet the guy who can form seals faster than Kakashi's Sharingan can track can't do anything to stop him.

I think this is the part where I just tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about.

By the way: Itachi can also use clones.



> Suigetsu and Juugo reacted to V1 Raikage. Kurenai reacted to Itachi's kunai slash and kick when she was coming out of a genjutsu. Mei was coordinating attacks with V1 Raikage. It doesn't take a genius to realize she can react to his attacks. She can react to him just fine and perform the seals and get the mist up. I know it probably blows your mind that Itachi can't just beat down the Mizukage with taijutsu before she can do anything, but that is the truth.



Why would you cite coordinating attacks with the Raikage as an impressive feat right after pointing out that Suigetsu and Jugo actively intercepted him?

Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Mei has feats replicated by Suigetsu and Jugo, who got owned in a physical match by Killer B, who Itachi traded attacks with evenly.



> Again, operating under the assumption that Mei can not just dodge and form the seals. Which is what she does here.



How? Itachi is faster than her, can weave signs faster than her, and can cast Jutsu faster than her.



> Itachi is not infallible.



You don't need to be infallible to beat Mei.

You pretty much have to be Kage-level and stronger than old Hiruzen to beat Mei. Although Hiruzen could probably do it, too.



> It does not take a genius to realize that Kakashi/Kurenai could react to his taijutsu ability/speed,



Why do you keep treating Kakashi and Kurenai like they're slow?

Since when was Mei faster than either of them?



> amaterasu can be avoided through blocking LoS,



Sure, Mei just has to see it coming while she's not looking at his eyes. 



> speed,



Sure, you just have to be capable of pumping Bijuu-level amounts of chakra into your Shunshin.



> and/or bunshins,



That's not going to stop Amaterasu from sweeping.



> genjutsu can be avoided through avoiding eye contact, bunshins, and/or getting out of range,



Which works for Genjutsu *by itself*...until you start factoring in Itachi's ability to do other things, like cast Amaterasu, attack with Susano'o, or even simply blitz/clone feint and attack from a blind spot like he did to Killer B before KCM Naruto intercepted him.



> and Susano kills Itachi.



Susano'o kills Itachi because it's an incredibly powerful, effective Jutsu. It's completely idiotic to only point out the drawbacks of a technique and act like it doesn't do anything else; if that's really all Susano'o did, Itachi would have no reason to use it, ever.



> He just isn't as strong as you want to believe.



You would have to be a complete idiot to believe Itachi isn't stronger than Mei.

That, or just in complete denial of the obvious.

You accuse me of overhyping Itachi, yet in all these examples, what your entire argument boils down to is that he is too slow to hit his opponents while they can just keep spamming him into submission without limit, even though neither Oonoki nor Mei have given us any reason to believe they are faster than the likes of Kakashi or possess enough stamina to beat Itachi by attrition (something Sasuke failed to do). You just arbitrarily throw out Itachi's feats (finger Genjutsu) because they aren't good enough for you or you reinterpret them in a way that is decidedly damaging to his chances (claiming Sasuke "outran" Amaterasu even though it hit him). You basically ignore everything Itachi is capable of outside of what Mei and Oonoki *might possibly* be equipped to handle on a move-by-move basis, while giving them both attack priority and denying Itachi's ability to advance. And then, when I point out how completely retarded and hypocritical your line of thinking is, you have a fit and resort to making personal attacks instead of supporting any of the outrageously ignorant claims you've made.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Well I've got to stop you right there. Itachi isn't more skilled than Sasuke in Genjutsu. The only Genjutsu skill Itachi has has that Sasuke lacks is being able to control people from long distances and a finger Genjutsu that works on Chuunin level shinobi.
> So unless you've got something which shows me that Sasuke is inferior to Itachi in Genjutsu - other than those two skills I cited - then we're led to believe they're the same. Especially as the whole thing with Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu (during the Shouten arc) was something that hyped the entire Uchiha clan, not Itachi alone.



Itachi has a higher DB score for genjutsu and has way more hype. Itachi was able to build three layers of illusion into his genjutsu when battling Sasuke while Sasuke only managed one. Itachi can manipulate perception of time within his illusions while Sasuke can't.

Not all Sharingan genjutsu is created equal. Otherwise, why would Ei be shocked that he was defeated by "mere" Sharingan genjutsu? Never, not even once, was it suggested that just because it is cast with the Sharingan, all skill with genjutsu goes out the window. Never.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 9, 2013)

"*Itachi takes on all the Kage"

*And gets punked out and raped mercilessly.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Itachi has a higher DB score for genjutsu and has way more hype. Itachi was able to build three layers of illusion into his genjutsu when battling Sasuke while Sasuke only managed one. Itachi can manipulate perception of time within his illusions while Sasuke can't.
> 
> Not all Sharingan genjutsu is created equal. Otherwise, why would Ei be shocked that he was defeated by "mere" Sharingan genjutsu? Never, not even once, was it suggested that just because it is cast with the Sharingan, all skill with genjutsu goes out the window. Never.



You mention the databook but miss two key factors: [1] it includes Kekkei Genkai and [2] the databook explicitly said with the MS Sasuke's scores would improve. 

Itachi hasn't gotten "way more hype". The Sharingan's Genjutsu ability has gotten a lot of hype. The only individuals whose overall Shraingan Genjutsu ability has gotten hype were Madara, Obito and Shisui. You can also argue Sasuke - against Kabuto he used normal Genjutsu to accomplish what Itachi needed Tsukuyomi to accomplish.
Aside from long range controlling and finger Genjutsu, Itachi doesn't have anything on Sasuke's Genjutsu.

Itachi built layers, but Sasuke saw through them all. Sasuke is able to manipulate a victim's perception of time through Genjutsu too - an ability granted by the MS ability: Tsukuyomi. Sasuke did so against Killer Bee, and unlike Itachi he's shown he can tone down the illusion's power to make more subtle illusions e.g. how he made Danzo think he still had time within his illusion. Meaningful as Danzo suggested normal Genjutsu doesn't work on him.

Not all Sharingan Genjutsu is created equal, true. The superior illusions tend to have names like Kotoamatsukami or Tsukuyomi. Whereas others' ability have actually been outwardly commented e.g. Madara. 
No-one said that no skill is involved with Sharingan Genjutsu. I am merely saying that aside from two minor abilities, Itachi's Genjutsu still is no different to any average elite Uchiha. Obviously that standard is outclassed by the Obito, Madara and Shisui types.

With that in mind, given that I have no reason to believe Itachi's Genjutsu skill is particularly above Sasuke's, I'm still with the notion that he'd not be able to see through illusions faster than Sasuke.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Genjutsu master is a title you can also grant the Mizukage. Especially as Itachi's only unique Genjutsu feats are long range control and finger Genjutsu.



On the contrary, the 2nd Mizukage hasn't shown any ability with genjutsu whatsoever... he can use the C-rank kuchiyose though.

One could argue that the Mizukage and his clone have to see through the genjutsu to be effective, and this could correlate with skill, but that's something Itachi would easily be able to do as well if that were the case.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 9, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> "*Itachi takes on all the Kage"
> 
> *And gets punked out and raped mercilessly.



I love it when people are too lazy/careless to even read the opening post before they respond.

Hell, you could've read even just the first two sentences and you wouldn't have made this mistake.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You mention the databook but miss two key factors: [1] it includes Kekkei Genkai and [2] the databook explicitly said with the MS Sasuke's scores would improve.



And even with the Mangekyo, the difference between Itachi and Sasuke's genjutsu was likened by Danzo to be like the difference between heaven and earth. 


> Itachi hasn't gotten "way more hype". The Sharingan's Genjutsu ability has gotten a lot of hype. The only individuals whose overall Shraingan Genjutsu ability has gotten hype were Madara, Obito and Shisui. You can also argue Sasuke - against Kabuto he used normal Genjutsu to accomplish what Itachi needed Tsukuyomi to accomplish.
> Aside from long range controlling and finger Genjutsu, Itachi doesn't have anything on Sasuke's Genjutsu.



Much longer range
Genjutsu through different methods
Time control
Multiple layered genjutsu
Genjutsu reversal
Subtle control of individuals so they aren't aware (think Deidara)

Looking at all of Itachi's advantages in genjutsu, I am hard pressed to see how you don't think Itachi is generally superior to Sasuke in genjutsu. He got the hype from Danzo. He got the Alliance hyping how he alone could have accomplished anything even resembling the Zetsu infiltration, which strikes me as more than just hyping a specific skill with genjutsu but suggesting that Itachi in general was a really skilled genjutsu user. And I say that because their talk about Itachi specifically being able to control multiple people at long ranges like that seemed like speculation; it's unlikely that any of them had ever personally known Itachi to do that. It strikes me that it was a comment on Itachi being more skilled than others with genjutsu. Incidentally, Itachi is likely an Inton type. Sasuke is a Raiton type. But Itachi's strongest elemental skill has always been with genjutsu. 

Btw, Itachi using Tsukuyomi was probably to give him the time to explain to Sasuke how they were going to execute the Izanami, given that it's execution depended on Sasuke reacting correctly.


> Itachi built layers, but Sasuke saw through them all.



Yes, he did. But not immediately. It took him a couple moments to see through each layer. And had Itachi been trying to kill Sasuke as Sasuke thought, then any one of those moments could have allowed Itachi to strike in real life. If Sasuke had been able to build layer upon layer of genjutsu for himself, would he not have done so in order to force Itachi into more disadvantageous positions? 





> Sasuke is able to manipulate a victim's perception of time through Genjutsu too - an ability granted by the MS ability: Tsukuyomi.



Which Sasuke has never had. His MS powers are Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Kagutsuchi.


> Sasuke did so against Killer Bee, and unlike Itachi he's shown he can tone down the illusion's power to make more subtle illusions e.g. how he made Danzo think he still had time within his illusion. Meaningful as Danzo suggested normal Genjutsu doesn't work on him



Sasuke never manipulated time against Kirabi. He simply used a powerful paralyzing genjutsu with the Mangekyo. That is it. And I knew you would bring up the Danzo bit. That is a common misconception. Sasuke simply create the false image that Danzo's last eye was still open when it had already closed. That is how he through off Danzo's sense of time. He didn't slow down or speed it up directly like Tsukuyomi does. And I know you are going to point to Sasuke clutching his eye or the black and white aspect against Kirabi to say he uses Tsukuyomi, but it was never called that, and the DB description for Tsukuoyomi says it exercises complete control over time within the illusion. Sasuke hasn't and can't do that so its not Tsukuyomi.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 9, 2013)

It's pretty evident that Itachi is more skilled at Genjutsu than Sasuke.

You say all he can do is cast Genjutsu from a finger or control someone from outside the range of sensors, but actually stop and consider the significance of the fact that he can do these things while Sasuke can't.

When Zetsu began attacking the allied forces at night, Itachi was the go-to shinobi that Shikaku (Shikamaru's father and intellectual peer, if not superior) speculated was behind it. Literally no one else, in all of history, could believably do it- not even the 2nd Mizukage, the professed Yin-style Kage.

And even though Danzou's hype was directed exclusively at Itachi's Tsukuyomi, I don't see why you would discount it; that's an explicit statement that Itachi is better with Genjutsu because of his capabilities.

And then you have Itachi's ability to use Izanami...

If the question is "What evidence is there that Itachi is more skilled with Genjutsu?", I really don't see the sense in saying "His skill isn't any better except for this, and this, and this too."

It's just easier and more obvious to acknowledge that Itachi's skill with Genjutsu is better instead of isolating all of the instances where this is proven and then demanding proof.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I am merely saying that aside from two minor abilities, Itachi's Genjutsu still is no different to any average elite Uchiha.



This is just objectively wrong.

Itachi is far beyond the level of "any average elite Uchiha"; most elite Uchiha don't even have Mangekyou Sharingan. Yet Itachi proved to be stronger than three of his fellow "elites" simultaneously, even without it.

He's also got a perfect score for Genjutsu in the third databook, something that isn't terribly common.

It goes beyond a leap of faith to assume that there were many- if any -Uchiha who possessed Genjutsu skill comparable to Itachi's, aside from the obvious four (Sasuke, Obito, Madara, and Shisui).

Now, some of them might have been able to use the same techniques as Itachi as part of their Kekkei Genkai, but that still doesn't put their skill or their power up to par with his.



> Obviously that standard is outclassed by the Obito, Madara and Shisui types.



It's outclassed by Itachi and Sasuke as well. Most Uchiha "elites" don't even reach their level.


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## Jagger (Jul 9, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> "*Itachi takes on all the Kage"
> 
> *And gets punked out and raped mercilessly.


The only Kage that makes him a bitch is Hashirama, no one else. 

Maybe Tobirama, but if he shows more feats.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> On the contrary, the 2nd Mizukage hasn't shown any ability with genjutsu whatsoever... he can use the C-rank kuchiyose though.
> 
> One could argue that the Mizukage and his clone have to see through the genjutsu to be effective, and this could correlate with skill, but that's something Itachi would easily be able to do as well if that were the case.



Mizukage is obviously using the clam's mist as a medium for his genjutsu. 

Itachi can't "see" through genjutsu.



Nikushimi said:


> I love it when people are too lazy/careless to even read the opening post before they respond.
> 
> Hell, you could've read even just the first two sentences and you wouldn't have made this mistake.



Your list started with Hashirama, so it doesn't matter. 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> And even with the Mangekyo, the difference between Itachi and Sasuke's genjutsu was likened by Danzo to be like the difference between heaven and earth.
> 
> 
> Much longer range
> ...



Danzo was comparing MS genjutsus, Itachi's Tsukyomi can alter the perception of time while Sasuke could not. 

We've never seen Itachi put anyone in a genjutsu from long distance. 
Sharingan genjutsu and normal genjutsu, which may had been retconned. 
Through Tsukiyomi- only.
No such thing as layered genjutsu. 
Sharingan ability. 
Rookies like chibi Deidara, subtle manipulation is a generic genjutsu trick. 



Nikushimi said:


> This is just objectively wrong.
> 
> Itachi is far beyond the level of "any average elite Uchiha"; most elite Uchiha don't even have Mangekyou Sharingan. Yet Itachi proved to be stronger than three of his fellow "elites" simultaneously, even without it.



Itachi beating up some Uchihas in a taijutsu contest does not correlate to genjutsu prowess though.


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## ImSerious (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Without feats there is no way to debate who'd defeat who in BD.
> Tobirama in Bd is Tobirama who fought against Hiruzen.



Im not saying we shouldnt use feats, but if you ignore portrayal when it comes to top tiers who lack feats you wont be staying faithful to the manga. You wouldnt really be discussing the canon tobirama.



> Go ahead and create a thread with RS sons vs anyone.
> 
> And see how long it will take a mod to trash it with the reason being "RS sons have no feats."



Whatever, your missing the point. If i created a thread RS's sons vs konohamaru, would you still ignore portrayal and say konohamaru stomps? Its the same thing.



> It wouldn't if you hadn't cropped the rest of my post.



No it still would. Portrayal is the way Kishi sees things, you just need some common sense and you should be fine telling who's generally on what level.



Jagger said:


> The only Kage that makes him a bitch is Hashirama, no one else.
> 
> Maybe Tobirama, but if he shows more feats.



Your right, Minato has already made him his bitch


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## Turrin (Jul 9, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The feat is unquantifiable.
> 
> Can you tell me how strong Izuna was? Can you tell me what Jutsu he had?
> 
> ...


Why does it matter if we didn't see Tobirama get into position, we know he landed the final blow and Kishi did not give any excuse for Izuna's loss. The two were rivals the same as Hashi and Madara, the Senju brother winning out yet again is hardly a surprise.

As for the not quantifiable part, it seems to me that you just blatantly ignored a great majority of my previous post because I already answered your question.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> On the contrary, the 2nd Mizukage hasn't shown any ability with genjutsu whatsoever... he can use the C-rank kuchiyose though.
> 
> One could argue that the Mizukage and his clone have to see through the genjutsu to be effective, and this could correlate with skill, but that's something Itachi would easily be able to do as well if that were the case.



Now you're going with showings? Before you were relying on portrayal. Whatever you rank the summon, its still a Genjutsu effective enough to get Itachi. You've yet to give me reason to think otherwise.

You could argue that the Mizukage has to see through the Genjutsu. But you'd have to say why this is the case. Users seem to have immunity to their summons' Genjutsu e.g. why Jiraiya wasn't paralyzed with Pain after Fukasaku and Shima did their thing.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> And even with the Mangekyo, the difference between Itachi and Sasuke's genjutsu was likened by Danzo to be like the difference between heaven and earth.



Danzo didn't compare skill at all. He compared normal Genjutsu (Sasuke) to Tsukuyomi (Itachi).



> Much longer range
> Genjutsu through different methods
> *Time control
> Multiple layered genjutsu
> ...


 
The bolded are things that aren't unique to Itachi. Time control is there for anyone who has Tsukuyomi yo use. Sasuke played the same layering game as Itachi did, with Itachi. The Genjutsu reversal you cite is a universal Uchiha jutsu according to the databook. Subtle control of individuals... what happened with Sasuke and Deidara?

Look closer:
- Danzo didn't say what you're claiming he did.

- The Alliance didn't say he _couldn't_ accomplish what Zetsu did. It just told us he can control people from a longer range than others. His general skill with Genjutsu was emphasised when his shouten form faced team 7... but that hyped the Uchiha clan.

- Itachi can't be an Inton type. Inton and Youton are chakra types anyone can choose to use and master; the 'type' shinobi are are always one of the five elements. It was said the Uchiha clan tended to be fire types, so that's what Itachi likely is.

- Except Sasuke didn't know Izanami was cast till Itachi manage to land it. In other words, Itachi didn't exchange any messages through Tsukuyomi. He did what the panel showed, freed Sasuke. Obviously if you're going to go to "who has stronger Genjutsu skill" then it will be easy to say Sasuke given Itachi actually did need Tsukuyomi to do what Sasuke did with base Genjutsu.
We really don't have anything to suggest Itachi could've done the same with normal Genjutsu; he jumped to his strongest Genjutsu.​


> Yes, he did. But not immediately. It took him a couple moments to see through each layer. And had Itachi been trying to kill Sasuke as Sasuke thought, then any one of those moments could have allowed Itachi to strike in real life. If Sasuke had been able to build layer upon layer of genjutsu for himself, would he not have done so in order to force Itachi into more disadvantageous positions?



They were just standing still and neither attacked the other. If Sasuke was really behind seeing each layer, then Itachi would've capitalised and attack. However consistently Sasuke saw through and beat every Genjutsu Itachi used; even Tsukuyomi.
The whole "Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke" doesn't fly with any case other than when it was actually the case: when Susanoo came out; additionally the lack of Susanoo. So I wouldn't give Itachi the benefit of the doubt just because he didn't want to kill Sasuke, in regards to his Genjutsu skill. 

As for forcing Itachi to disadvantageous positions... didn't Itachi stop the Genjutsu fight first? That was done in response to all his illusions failing. Then he tried Tsukuyomi, then ceased using illusions as it was apparent to Itachi, Sasuke, Zetsu and the readers that Itachi's illusions aren't strong enough to get Sasuke. Unless it is a special type of Genjutsu like Izanami.



> Which Sasuke has never had. His MS powers are Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Kagutsuchi.



Except his fight with Danzo, his run in with the Kumo ninja and his fight with Bee prove otherwise. Kagutsuchi is an improvement on Amaterasu. No matter how many times he uses his Kagutsuchi, it doesn't un-write what Sasuke did in two battles with his left eye. But more on that on the next bit of this post.



> Sasuke never manipulated time against Kirabi. He simply used a powerful paralyzing genjutsu with the Mangekyo. That is it. And I knew you would bring up the Danzo bit. That is a common misconception. Sasuke simply create the false image that Danzo's last eye was still open when it had already closed. That is how he through off Danzo's sense of time. He didn't slow down or speed it up directly like Tsukuyomi does. And I know you are going to point to Sasuke clutching his eye or the black and white aspect against Kirabi to say he uses Tsukuyomi, but it was never called that, and the DB description for Tsukuoyomi says it exercises complete control over time within the illusion. Sasuke hasn't and can't do that so its not Tsukuyomi.



A paralysing Genjutsu that looks like Tsukuyomi, comes from the eye Tsukuyomi would come from and had the artwork which represented Tsukuyomi... but it also ended with Sasuke holding his eye. Just like Itachi did when Tsukuyomi was overcome. There are too many Tsukuyomi signs to dismiss it being Tsukuyomi. 

He kept Danzo at one point in time. Obito's evaluation even focused on the Tsukuyomi eye, and even used the classic inverted coloured panels to explain the situation. Not to mention that in response to Danzo's question (how Izanagi failed), Obito quotes Danzo's comment on Tsukuyomi. There's also the fact Danzo showed and suggested normal Genjutsu isn't effective on him. Like the Bee case, there's a lot of strong stuff to simply brush it under the rug and slap a "normal Genjutsu" sticker on it. 

You claim Sasuke hasn't and can't control time within his illusion. What do you so readily say this without assuming Sasuke may've already demonstrated this?
Last I remember the user chooses how time flows within the illusion. You can pack a lot of time and cause your foes to fall down, like Itachi did with Kakashi and what Sasuke did with Bee. Or you can keep your victim thinking they're one minute in the past... like Sasuke did.
_That_ is having complete control over time within the illusion.

Given that all this links to why I don't think Itachi would see through high leveled Genjutsu faster than Sasuke... you can already see that I still stand with Itachi not seeing through Trollkage's illusion so swiftly.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 9, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Mizukage is obviously using the clam's mist as a medium for his genjutsu.



If it's so obvious then you'll have no trouble providing evidence.

For all we know, the mist could actually be some kind of chemical with hallucinogenic effects that the Mizukage can manipulate with his chakra. Or it may not even be relevant to the Genjutsu at all.



> Itachi can't "see" through genjutsu.



Anyone with Sharingan can see through Genjutsu.



> Your list started with Hashirama, so it doesn't matter.



And this is where I tell you to go back and read the opening post.

Itachi is fully restored for each match; he doesn't stop even if he loses. The point of this thread is to see who he can beat and who he can't, which you would know if you had read my OP in the first place instead of posting out of ignorance like a total dingus.



> No such thing as layered genjutsu.



Whatever you want to call it, we have seen Genjutsu appear to be cast within Genjutsu; whether it is an actual layering effect or something else isn't really clear or important.



> Itachi beating up some Uchihas in a taijutsu contest does not correlate to genjutsu prowess though.



True. What I meant to point out was that not all Uchiha are created equal; their Taijutsu prowess wasn't equal so there's no reason to expect that their Genjutsu prowess would be, particularly knowing Itachi's abnormal skill/power in that area.



Turrin said:


> Why does it matter if we didn't see Tobirama get into position, we know he landed the final blow and Kishi did not give any excuse for Izuna's loss. The two were rivals the same as Hashi and Madara, the Senju brother winning out yet again is hardly a surprise.
> 
> As for the not quantifiable part, it seems to me that you just blatantly ignored a great majority of my previous post because I already answered your question.



I ignored your post because you're mistaken. 

1. We don't know how strong Izuna was.

2. We don't know what techniques Izuna could use.

3. Tobirama beating Izuna doesn't tell us anything about his chances of beating Itachi or how he would do it.

Tobirama's feat was unquantifiable. If you really want to prove me wrong, then quantify it. Show me how strong Izuna was. Show me his Jutsu. Show me how Tobirama countered them. Then show me how that applies to Itachi.

What you are doing is _speculating_; it is different from actually _quantifying_, where you can observe and measure something and say with demonstrable accuracy what value it has.

I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you and Vice to grasp, but you both seriously need to learn to admit when the answer is simply "I don't know." It seems like you are treating it the same as me telling you you're wrong, but it isn't.

What you are wrong about is your notion that the feat is quantifiable, but that's a little further from the point.

Izuna, as of this point in the manga, is featless. Tobirama beating him doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know (like the fact that he can slash open an Uchiha's body with a sword). We didn't even get an explanation of what the space-time Ninjutsu could do and only saw the moments _after_ Tobirama landed his attack.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Now you're going with showings?



At your insistence. I say Itachi wins from both angles.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Whatever you rank the summon, its still a Genjutsu effective enough to get Itachi. You've yet to give me reason to think otherwise.



I gave statements that the Sharingan counters illusions. "Reading through countless illusions in an instant. The jutsu's fundamentals, chakra amount and the like: those eyes will reflect matters in their entirety!!"



UltimateDeadpool said:


> Mizukage is obviously using the clam's mist as a medium for his genjutsu.



When was this said?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> At your insistence. I say Itachi wins from both angles.



Unfortunately for you, I'm not simply just going to take your word for it. You've got to show me why Itachi wins. Why Itachi beats someone who actually mastered the chakra type Genjutsu relies on and why he beats a clam that's shown that it can constantly cast Genjutsu.



> I gave statements that the Sharingan counters illusions. "Reading through countless illusions in an instant. The jutsu's fundamentals, chakra amount and the like: those eyes will reflect matters in their entirety!!"



Make it relevant to this discussion; why will the clam be stopped? Why would the clam possibly stop if its under a mirage and when it has a user that can snap it out of the illusion?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes: it allows Itachi to see he is within Genjutsu.
> 
> No: he won't see the clam. Everyone within the illusion couldn't see the clam, only a sensor could detect the clam when he was far away from the location it initially cast the illusion.



Clams genjutsu is it creates fake images and hides its location.

With sharingan, Itachi will know which are the fake(genjutsu generated) and which are the real ones.

Its not rocket science dawg.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Clams genjutsu is it creates fake images and hides its location.
> 
> With sharingan, Itachi will know which are the fake(genjutsu generated) and which are the real ones.
> 
> Its not rocket science dawg.



If it was really that simple, then many shinobi wouldn't have fallen for it and it wouldn't have required a sensor to find the thing. 

Itachi will see chakra, but no clam. Seeing as, like I said to you before, *the clam is constantly casting the Genjutsu*. Itachi will spend more time breaking out then he will looking for it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Im not saying we shouldnt use feats, but if you ignore portrayal when it comes to top tiers who lack feats you wont be staying faithful to the manga. You wouldnt really be discussing the canon tobirama.



Ok, lets use portrayal.

How does Tobirama defeat Itachi ? 




> Whatever, your missing the point. If i created a thread RS's sons vs konohamaru, would you still ignore portrayal and say konohamaru stomps? Its the same thing.


No I would say that Konohomaru is chuunin level and those guys are complete mysteries so there is nothing to talk about.







> No it still would. Portrayal is the way Kishi sees things, you just need some common sense and you should be fine telling who's generally on what level.


If portrayal was so important for Kishi, Sakura & Chiyo would never defeat Sasori.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If it was really that simple, then many shinobi wouldn't have fallen for it and it wouldn't have required a sensor to find the thing.


Who had Sharingan among Konoha ranks ? 



> Itachi will see chakra, but no clam. Seeing as, like I said to you before, *the clam is constantly casting the Genjutsu*. Itachi will spend more time breaking out then he will looking for it.



Thats a very complex explanation which makes no sense.

Its more like the genjutsu won't even work on him, because sharingan will allow him to see through the genjutsu.
Itachi will always see through the genjutsu generated images.


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## ImSerious (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok, lets use portrayal.
> 
> How does Tobirama defeat Itachi ?



I dont know, im just saying hes being portrayed on a higher level than itachi, so if they fought tobirama would probably be the victor.



> No I would say that Konohomaru is chuunin level and those guys are complete mysteries so there is nothing to talk about.



What do you mean there's nothing to talk about. Which one would you say wins?



> If portrayal was so important for Kishi, Sakura & Chiyo would never defeat Sasori.



Sasori let them beat him, he gave up.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Who had Sharingan among Konoha ranks ?



We know a shinobi who is arguably at, or above, Itachi's level of Genjutsu skill (Sasuke) wasn't aware of his surroundings after an inferior Genjutsu (Shii's) caught him. 



> Thats a very complex explanation which makes no sense.
> 
> Its more like the genjutsu won't even work on him, because sharingan will allow him to see through the genjutsu.
> Itachi will always see through the genjutsu generated images.



By that logic Genjutsu shouldn't have worked on Sasuke, or Itachi, during their battle because they had the Sharingan. But it worked, and they had to release themselves. Same deal with Kakashi and Obito.

Itachi can see through the Genjutsu, sure. However given the clam keeps producing that mist which the Trollkage uses to make the mirage... Itachi's pretty much going to always be within the illusion.

Till Trollkage gets him with the magic finger. :ho


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 9, 2013)

If Itachi is in good health with eyesight, he either doesn't have MS or  is still a novice with it like Sasuke was at the Kage summit. 

Hashirama - Itachi loses
Tobirama - Itachi loses
Hiruzen (old) - Itachi wins
Minato - Itachi loses
Tsunade - Itachi wins
Sandaime Kazekage - Itachi loses
Gaara's Dad - Itachi loses
Gaara - Itachi loses
Muu - Itachi loses
Oonoki - Itachi loses
Trollkage - Itachi loses
Yagura - Itachi loses
Mei - Itachi wins
Sandaime Raikage - Itachi loses
A - Itachi loses 



Nikushimi said:


> If it's so obvious then you'll have no trouble providing evidence.
> 
> For all we know, the mist could actually be some kind of chemical with hallucinogenic effects that the Mizukage can manipulate with his chakra. Or it may not even be relevant to the Genjutsu at all.
> 
> ...



Trollkage said he's an Inton user, then proceeds to use genjutsu. The clam is the medium that he uses to spread his illusion over the whole battlefield, the clam itself is never stated to be a genjutsu user. Also, the clam wouldn't perfectly imitate Trollkage and tell everyone how to kill itself. 

A Sharingan user can see "through" a genjutsu in the context that they realize they are in one, not that it's not there. We have many instances of Sharingan users being 100% effects by genjutsu, even Itachi. 

What we have seen is a genjutsu that didn't end. A "dream within a dream" is still just the same dream, it just hadn't ended yet, genjutsu is the same way. The user is able to manipulate what the opponent sees, so until the opponents counters it or loses, the user is able to change the illusion. And apparently it is important if it's a key point being made. 

I wouldn't call Itachi's skill "abnormal," you're just overhyping him.

Izuna was as strong as MS Madara.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> the clam itself is never stated to be a genjutsu user.









Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We know a shinobi who is arguably at, or above, Itachi's level of Genjutsu skill (Sasuke)



This is based on Itachi wanting to lose to Hebi Sasuke, I guess?


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


>



Good finds, but it's ambiguous and/or contradictory information, like how Hiraishin keeps getting called a "Shunshin." Since it's a combo, the clam could of course get credit for it. 



He is the genjutsu user, his clam is just his support. 

His mirage was thinking, talking, and acting just like him, it even used his jutsus. Why would the clam do that?


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## joshhookway (Jul 9, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I know the title sounds bad, but it is really.



Fixed 

Itachi fights:

Hashirama: Guanyin gg

Tobirama: S/T and Edo Tensei along with giant ass water gg

Hiruzen (old): Totsuka gg

Minato: FTG tags gg

Tsunade: Totsuka

Gaara's Dad: Gold sand drags Itachi out of Susanoo and sand crush

Gaara: see above

Muu: Jinton obliterate Itachi

Oonoki: jinton

Trollkage: Joki boy destroys Itachi. Also has a better genjutsu than Itachi. Itachi won't be able to have eye contact with the real Mizukage.

Yagura: Yagura uses ice mirror to reflect Totsuka and wins with Bijuudama

Mei: totsuka

Sandaime Raikage: runs circles around itachi till Itachi dies from exhaustion

A: see above


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> This is based on Itachi wanting to lose to Hebi Sasuke, I guess?



Sorry, but the "Itachi wanted to lose" only applies when you talk about his use of Susanoo. Nothing else i.e. Itachi's actual Genjutsu skill was canonically around, or beneath, Sasuke's level. 

The implications it has ITT are clear.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sorry, but the "Itachi wanted to lose" only applies when you talk about his use of Susanoo. Nothing else i.e. Itachi's actual Genjutsu skill was canonically around, or beneath, Sasuke's level.





Silly me. I must have misread that to say "It wasn't until the last moment, with Susano'o, that Itachi decided he wasn't trying to kill you." So I guess it makes sense that Itachi was going at him 100% with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.


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## Ersa (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy I'm sorry but that is incredibly shoddy reasoning.

Sasuke is not equal to Itachi in genjutsu in any way or form; he's superior at ninjutsu.
- Danzo claims Sasuke's genjutsu is a far cry from Itachi's.
- When the Zetsus start turning on the Alliance, HQ suspects Itachi of controlling them. That alone speaks volumes of how good his genjutsu is.

Also Kishi clearly put Tobi's words of Itachi holding back and being on death-bed to show us that MS Itachi >>> Hebi Sasuke. Why else would he have it there? To intrepret that as only no Susanoo is honestly considering Sasuke himself said he used Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi and was not holding back *but Tobi refuted it and said he was holding back. Think of what the author is trying to portray here*


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Silly me. I must have misread that to say "It wasn't until the last moment, with Susano'o, that Itachi decided he wasn't trying to kill you." So I guess it makes sense that Itachi was going at him 100% with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.



The flaw with your argument is you're looking too much into it. When Itachi held back it was clear (the lack of Susanoo). 
Kishimoto intended for us to believe Itachi didn't use his strongest jutsu to harm Sasuke. Obviously as it wasn't used to harm Sasuke.

However you've taken the more out of context approach and focus on this fabricated "100% Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi". 

As such I doubt Itachi has some secret level of Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi we don't know about that'll help him _destroy _a lot of the combatants here.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The flaw with your argument is you're looking too much into it.



"Itachi planned everything about that fight for you" is enough to conclude that Itachi was holding back prior to using Susano'o, because _everything_ is the operative word. It's straightforward.

This:



Means this:



			
				Munboy said:
			
		

> Sorry, but the "Itachi wanted to lose" only applies when you talk about his use of Susanoo.



Was patently incorrect. This was the original point of contention.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Good finds, but it's ambiguous and/or contradictory information, like how Hiraishin keeps getting called a "Shunshin." Since it's a combo, the clam could of course get credit for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It wasn't ambiguous or contradictory... I showed the clam receiving credit for the jutsu twice. In your scan, the Mizukage talks about his jutsu, then uses a _kuchiyose_. The clam is in his arsenal, but the mirage is the clam's jutsu.

The Mizukage says his affinity is Yin, and we can thus assume that he is a skilled genjutsu user, but the fact remains that he's never actually been given credit for a genjutsu, which is why I inititally brought up the point:



			
				Munboy said:
			
		

> Genjutsu master is a title you can also grant the Mizukage. Especially as Itachi's only unique Genjutsu feats are long range control and finger Genjutsu.



Seeing as the Mizukage has no unique genjutsu feats, or any genjutsu feats. But Munboy's interpretation has more interesting mismatches with my own, which is what I'm focusing on discussing at the moment.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 9, 2013)

Itachi is a genjutsu user capable of using crows as a medium to cast genjutsu as well


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## ueharakk (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I think if the beast bomb couldn't kill the Sandaime Raikage, then it's not going to work against Susano'o, let alone the Yata Mirror.


Itachi takes time to manifest his lvl4 susanoo, if he's putting up a defense in response to the hachibi charging a TBB, it's going to be a lvl3 at most.

It was never implied that sandaime raikage was directly hit by a TBB.  The opposite was actually portrayed considering FRS did damage him despite being far weaker than a TBB.


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## Sans (Jul 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sorry, but the "Itachi wanted to lose" only applies when you talk about his use of Susanoo. Nothing else i.e. Itachi's actual Genjutsu skill was canonically around, or beneath, Sasuke's level.
> 
> The implications it has ITT are clear.



This is patently false. 

Zetsu throughout the entire fight was surprised and confused that Itachi was performing less effectively than usual. To the point he contemplated if Itachi was seriously injured or not.

After the fight when Itachi's holding back is discussed, it flashes back to the genjutsu contest and multiple other occurrences. Obito than states that Itachi was planning the entire fight.

Sasuke's genjutsu has never been placed on Itachi's level. Itachi's mastery of the art has been expounded upon continuously by multiple people. The only direct comparison was by Danzou, who placed them on entirely different levels. Sasuke is a proficient genjutsu user, but it is merely another tool in his arsenal.


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## Ghost (Jul 10, 2013)

Defeats everyone but Hashi. Some matches can go either way though.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> "Itachi planned everything about that fight for you" is enough to conclude that Itachi was holding back prior to using Susano'o, because _everything_ is the operative word. It's straightforward.
> 
> This:
> 
> ...



With my take on it, we actually see what happened. Itachi hit Sasuke with jutsu he could handle; Itachi's all of Itachi's jutsu. Except two jutsu: Susanoo and Izanami.
Makes sense as well after this fight we saw just what a difference Susanoo and Izanami could make.

However with your stance we need to speculate heavily that Itachi held every little thing back.

Given your stance relies on more speculation based on pages (in your case a panel or two) taken out of context. As opposed to actual facts... It is pretty clear why I wouldn't share your view. 

Really, if your take on this actually had a shred of validity, you would actually be able to link the comment to aspects of the fight. However you only rely on one panel (atm) to suggest Itachi held back _everything_.



Komnenos said:


> This is patently false.
> 
> Zetsu throughout the entire fight was surprised and confused that Itachi was performing less effectively than usual. To the point he contemplated if Itachi was seriously injured or not.
> 
> ...



Zetsu was specific about how 'off' Itachi was. It it wasn't as general as you believe.

Obito said that, but you're not citing it right. Sasuke remembered all of Itachi's attacks. Obito said Itachi held back... indeed. Now did Itachi use Susanoo? Surely not using the most powerful jutsu in his arsenal is considered holding back. 

Itachi's main 'level' is a finger Genjutsu and long range control. Everything else was all Uchiha Genjutsu i.e. something Itachi, Sasuke and every other strong Sharingan user could replicate. 
I can never take the Danzo comment used in this case seriously, the way you presented it. This is because he compared _Tsukuyomi_ to normal Genjutsu. Not Itachi's Genjutsu skill.


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## Turrin (Jul 10, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I ignored your post because you're mistaken.
> 
> 1. We don't know how strong Izuna was.
> 
> ...


You still seem to be missing the point of my post. Of course we don't know exactly how strong Izuna is and that is why I agree with you so far as Tobirama beating Izuna doesn't guarantee a victory against Itachi. However at the same time to completely discount Tobirama's feat of beating Izuna, just because we don't know the exact level of his strength is also wrong as it ignores the general hype of Sharingan/MS/Clan Leader that Izuna possesses. Izuna could be the weakest MS users we've seen to date, but common senses dictates  it would still be quite a feat for someone to defeat him. Look at Sasuke he was a total newb with MS against Killer B and even still injured by his fight with Itachi, but was B not hyped when he nearly killed Sasuke wiith Lariate after countering Sasuke's MS Genjutsu? Not that I think it's wise to assume Izuna was such a newb with MS as Sasuke was during the B fight, but you should see my point that simply defeating any level of Sharingan/MS is notable hype in this manga. 

Also like I said beating an MS users does tell us some basic stuff about Tobirama. He obviously has a-lot of experience handling skilled Three Tome users and at least knows how to handle basic MS Genjutsu. Though I also think the suggestion is strong that he had handled Amaterasu & Enton before due to him showing knowledge of Enton in this battle.


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## Jagger (Jul 10, 2013)

The problem with people using Tobirama's feat of beating Izuna is that people assume the level of skill between all users are the same which is obviously wrong. What Vice was trying to say is that because Tobirama beat a MS user means it's a feat enough to put up a fight against Itachi (or, at least, that's what I understood, I could be wrong).

1. Not all MS users are equal, they don't have the same level of skill or raw power.
2. We don't know how Tobirama won that fight, maybe he caught Izuna off-guard, maybe it was a fair battle.

Yes, it's impressive he beat the second strognest Uchiha of Madara's generation, but how is that Uchiha compared to the current generation (Itachi, Sasuke and others)? He could have been weaker or stronger, we just don't know. Heck, we will probably never know how exactly powerful Izuna was.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 10, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Danzo was comparing MS genjutsus, Itachi's Tsukyomi can alter the perception of time while Sasuke could not..



He compared Sasuke's MS genjutsu to Itachi's. Had Sasuke been able to use Tsukuyomi, why not use it then? How could Danzo have escaped if the genjutsu had all been compressed to a single instant? 


> The bolded are things that aren't unique to Itachi. Time control is there for anyone who has Tsukuyomi yo use.



Only Itachi has shown it. Although I would expect Madara to be able to use it.


> Sasuke played the same layering game as Itachi did, with Itachi.



No, he didn't. He only created one layer of genjutsu, which dematerialized when his body collapsed into snakes (like Itachi does with crows). Seeing through an illusion is not the same as creating said illusion. Don't conflate the two. Sasuke only created one layer of genjutsu and then just saw through Itachi's illusions.


> The Genjutsu reversal you cite is a universal Uchiha jutsu according to the databook.



No it isn't. Itachi is cited as the only user.


> Subtle control of individuals... what happened with Sasuke and Deidara?



He created a false image of him dying while concealing his true self. Kinda like the Mizukage's illusion. It didn't control Deidara's actions.


> - The Alliance didn't say he _couldn't_ accomplish what Zetsu did. It just told us he can control people from a longer range than others. His general skill with Genjutsu was emphasised when his shouten form faced team 7... but that hyped the Uchiha clan.



Like Niku said, you are isolating all the areas where he is said to be better and then just acting as though they don't add up to something.


> - Itachi can't be an Inton type. Inton and Youton are chakra types anyone can choose to use and master; the 'type' shinobi are are always one of the five elements. It was said the Uchiha clan tended to be fire types, so that's what Itachi likely is.



Anyone can choose any type. Did you not see the entire alliance use Doton without training to try to stop the Juubi's Bijuudama? Itachi is much better with genjutsu than Katon (he never did anything more than a C ranked Katon). You said that the Mizukage specialized in Inton, which is one of the reasons you think he can beat the Sharingan. Which is it? Either you can specialize in Inton or you can't. If you can, then it is obvious that this is Itachi's speciality. 


> - Except Sasuke didn't know Izanami was cast till Itachi manage to land it. In other words, Itachi didn't exchange any messages through Tsukuyomi.



He didn't know it was cast...that doesn't mean Itachi didn't direct him on how to help him cast it. Unless you think it was sheer coincidence that Sasuke played a critical role in arranging matters. 
They were just standing still and neither attacked the other. If Sasuke was really behind seeing each layer, then Itachi would've capitalised and attack. However consistently Sasuke saw through and beat every Genjutsu Itachi used; even Tsukuyomi.


> The whole "Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke" doesn't fly with any case other than when it was actually the case: when Susanoo came out; additionally the lack of Susanoo. So I wouldn't give Itachi the benefit of the doubt just because he didn't want to kill Sasuke, in regards to his Genjutsu skill.



You are ignoring what we know happened. How did we first find out that Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke? Answer: Obito told Sasuke. He specifically referenced the fact that Itachi never tried to kill Sasuke, and that means outside of Susano'o. It is completely absurd to claim that Itachi, who didn't want to kill Sasuke, was trying his best to kill him at every point up until Susano'o. What kind of backwards logic is that? Now I am not saying that Itachi would have succeed in killing Sasuke in those instances, but he could have at least tried, or maybe even wounded him. 


> As for forcing Itachi to disadvantageous positions... didn't Itachi stop the Genjutsu fight first?



No, actually, Sasuke saw through his last illusion.


> That was done in response to all his illusions failing. Then he tried Tsukuyomi, then ceased using illusions as it was apparent to Itachi, Sasuke, Zetsu and the readers that Itachi's illusions aren't strong enough to get Sasuke. Unless it is a special type of Genjutsu like Izanami.



You realize that people who aren't as skilled at genjutsu can break the genjutsu of people who are more skilled, right? Sakura broke Kabuto's genjutsu. Onoki broke Madara's genjutsu on Ei. Deidara broke Sasuke's genjutsu. None of them can match their opponent in genjutsu skill, but defeating genjutsu is easier than casting, or else genjutsu users would be invincible since the only people who could ever defeat their genjutsu are people just as skilled at them at it. 


> Except his fight with Danzo, his run in with the Kumo ninja and his fight with Bee prove otherwise. Kagutsuchi is an improvement on Amaterasu. No matter how many times he uses his Kagutsuchi, it doesn't un-write what Sasuke did in two battles with his left eye. But more on that on the next bit of this post.



Except Kagutsuchi isn't an improvement on Amaterasu. We know for a fact that each ability comes from a different eye. Both use Enton, but Kagatsuchi simply does something different. Amaterasu materializes Enton on a target that they see. Kagatsuchi manipulates the flames into different shapes to use as weapons. It is no better Amaterasu. 


> A paralysing Genjutsu that looks like Tsukuyomi, comes from the eye Tsukuyomi would come from and had the artwork which represented Tsukuyomi... but it also ended with Sasuke holding his eye. Just like Itachi did when Tsukuyomi was overcome. There are too many Tsukuyomi signs to dismiss it being Tsukuyomi.



You are repeating the same point twice (about the black and white art) to make it look like you have more reasons. He used the right eye against the Kumo shinobi, and against Kirabi, and he used the left eye against Shi (the one he was clutching), and his right eye against Danzo. And for Itachi, Tsukuyomi came from the left eye, so what do you mean Tsukuyomi would come from? It doesn't follow any prior pattern, so you can't say that. Kagatsuchi is consistently from the right eye and Amaterasu from the left. That is consistent. Those are his abilities. 

Clutching an eye can simply be a sign of straining the eye. His most powerful genjutsu would strain his eye even if his most powerful genjutsu isn't as powerful as Tsukuyomi; which controls time, and is only Tsukuyomi if it controls time, because that is the DB and manga description of it. Color effects like that didn't occur in all cases so it isn't consistent. 


> He kept Danzo at one point in time.



No, he didn't. He simply created a false image, just like the Mizukage does, that the eye was open when it was really closed.


> Obito's evaluation even focused on the Tsukuyomi eye,



Like I have already shown, there is no such thing for Sasuke. It isn't consistent, and even if it was, you are trying to prove he does have Tsukuyomi (despite it never being stated), which means you can't say as proof that he has Tsukuyomi that it comes from the eye you say he casts Tsukuyomi from. If it came from the same eye Itachi used, there would be a pattern worthy of attention. But it wasn't the same eye as Itachi used.


> and even used the classic inverted coloured panels to explain the situation.



Because he was comparing the trick (he called it a trick) to controlling time, not because he was saying it did control time.


> Not to mention that in response to Danzo's question (how Izanagi failed), Obito quotes Danzo's comment on Tsukuyomi.



Yes, because he was commenting on Sasuke's trick. He even said, in very clear terms, "It's a weak genjutsu that doesn't last very long". You have to be joking if you think that is a description of Tsukuyomi.  For starters, Tsukuyomi traps the victim inside their own mind; never have we seen Tsukuyomi allow the victim to move about in the real world. Third, it's not a weak genjutsu. 





> There's also the fact Danzo showed and suggested normal Genjutsu isn't effective on him. Like the Bee case, there's a lot of strong stuff to simply brush it under the rug and slap a "normal Genjutsu" sticker on it.



Except you are wrong on this. Because Danzo showed that he was vulnerable to genjutsu earlier. You keep quoting Obito's commentary, well why don't you read the whole thing rather than cherrypicking. He specifically said that Sasuke used the genjutsu earlier to test whether Danzo could be affected by genjutsu. And he could.


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## Rain (Jul 10, 2013)

Itachi beats Hashirama with Amaterasu, Minato with Tsukuyomi and Tobirama with Totsuka.

The rest get demolished by a basic genjutsu and kunai.


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## Jagger (Jul 10, 2013)

Rain said:


> Hashirama tears Itachi to a new one, Minato with a bamflash attack and Tobirama with a non-panel feat.
> 
> The rest get demolished by a basic genjutsu and kunai.


Fixed it for you.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 10, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama



Hashirama trumps him. Although I'm of the belief that Itachi is considerably faster than the Shodai, Hashirama is generally accepted to be on another level entirely. With Sage Mode, mokuton branches, and Flower World pollen at his disposal, he has the perfect tools to shatter Susano'o, drag Itachi out of it, or perhaps even put him to sleep even through the barrier. With the body of a Senju I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume he's fairly durable and resilient, and with instant regeneration he faces no immediate threat from the likes of Amaterasu. Hashirama appreciated that Itachi was a strong ninja, so I would not be surprised if he could give Hashirama some difficulty here and there, but ultimately he's just a significantly weaker version of Madara, who Hashirama defeated many times.



> Tobirama



Tobirama doesn't seem on the same level as his brother. I don't doubt he has Kisame or Mei level talent with suitons but, at the end of the day, its just water. Unless his techniques deal Shinsuusenju levels of blunt force trauma, then these attacks won't be of any use outside of extinguishing Itachi's katon, and maybe repelling Itachi from close range. He has fairly fast shunshin, and can use the Hiraishingiri. He also has shadow clones, so he could at least pull of some speedy feints. However, he ultimately cannot break past through Itachi's defenses, nor does he have the same level of hype that his brother has. I don't think he would be able to win.



> Hiruzen (old)



Hiruzen gets destroyed, obviously. If we power-scale there's a possibility that he wouldn't be blitzed and die right away but, he's certainly outclassed regardless. He could probably combat katons with his own katons, and certainly with dotons as well. Enma means he may be able protect himself against Amaterasu, or clash with Itachi in CQC for a while. Still, even if on some fluke that ninjutsu or taijutsu doesn't kill him, genjutsu will screw him over for sure, he can't win.



> Minato



Hands down Minato. Hiriashin fucks up Itachi's ability to hit him, KCM cloak gives him huge stamina and more potent ninjutsu. His shunshins probably exceed Itachi's in swiftness as well. Itachi's defenses will annoy Minato, and genjutsu might be a tricky bastard to handle initially, though with an extra source of chakra from the Kyuubi, and a boss summon to help him out, Minato has a good enough resistance to it. 



> Tsunade



Itachi wins, though he doesn't do so without some difficulty. Knowledge is key in a Tsunade match-up, and luckily Itachi knows of Tsunade's super strength and resilience/regeneration, so he probably won't try to engage her in CQC much, and with clones and higher speed, escaping from CQs will not be difficult. More likely, he'll suit up a Susano'o, or try and blast her with an Amaterasu. Likewise, Tsunade's knowledge of Itachi will mean she prepares herself adequatly against his arsenal. If caught in a genjutsu, or worse yet, in Tsukuyomi, Katsuyu clones can channel the Godaime's medical chakra through her body to aid her in recovering from the effects. Given how much resilience and longevity Tsunade has, she would surely survive to tell the tale. Prolonged Amaterasu will burn her up though, and Susano'o is too fast for her to dodge continually. She dies.



> Sandaime Kazekage



Eh . . Sasori struggled to defeat him, but at least, if Sasori was able to defeat him at all, we can see the power level between the two is sizeable. Iron sand can't penetrate Susano'o, nor is it quick enough to blitz Itachi. It serves as quick and efficient defenses but, thats about it. Itachi will catch him in an illusion if all else fails.



> Gaara's Dad



Gold dust isn't quick enough to catch Itachi. He may be able to sweep him out of Susano'o, but things like Amaterasu, and genjutsu especially, will mess him up. Orochimaru could kill Yondaime Kazekage without a whole lot of trouble, after all. Itachi should win quite handily.



> Gaara



Gaara can probably defend himself from Amaterasu with sand shields and clones, he can pull Itachi out of Susano'o with sand, and uh . . maybe he can take out shadow clones with sand waves. But that's about his limit.



> Muu



Muu wins. With full knowledge he goes invisible and erases his chakra signature off the bat. Onoki's jinton destroyed Edo Madara's lower stages of Susano'o, I'd guess that a few blasts of Muu's would do a lot of damage to Itachi's. Itachi dies eventually, I'd guess.



> Oonoki



The old man is too vulnerable, and starts far too close to Itachi. His jinton could do damage but it would take too long. Itachi wins.



> Trollkage



Battle of the genjutsu, though since Itachi can reverse illusions, I wonder if the Mizukage's would work? He presumably has the talent to counter Itachi's katons with suitons, and his explosions would at least keep Itachi on the defense, but ultimately I find it hard to place him above Itachi, especially at such a close distance.



> Yagura



I'm assuming Yagura has the Sanbi at his disposal. Bijuu blasts kill Itachi, but if he can end Yagura before that (which as an Akatsuki member, he's pretty equipped to do) then he will win. Itachi wins more times than not.



> Mei



Acid mist would take too long to burn through Susano'o, lava wouldn't work either. Suitons extinguish katons, and her reaction speed is fairly high but, starting at 5 meters just messes Godaime Mizukage up. Itachi has this in the bag.



> Sandaime Raikage



He isn't winning this unless he can seal the Sandaime with the Totsuka blade. The Sandaime's speed would make this difficult however, and with his immense stamina he could easily outlast Itachi. Gejutsu could equally mess the Sandaime up, though. I'd place this at a 50/50. 



> A



Ei is essentially just a weaker version of his father. He lacks the raw power to do much damage to Susano'o, and while very fast, alone it won't be enough to trump Itachi's highly diverse arsenal.

Hashirama, Minato, Muu, and Sandaime Raikage are the few who can defeat him.​​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We know a shinobi who is arguably at, or above, Itachi's level of Genjutsu skill (Sasuke) wasn't aware of his surroundings after an inferior Genjutsu (Shii's) caught him.


Sasuke was strated to be masively inferior to Itachi in genjutsu skill, which is backed up by databook stats.

Shi's genjutsu was different, we actually saw Sasuke get pummeled by Raikage, not sure if it was Sasuke's or Juugo's point of view though.If it was Sasuke's point of view, then his mind was being altered, not just his vision.
The thing is, Sasuke saw through the genjutsu immediately.

Don't know what your point is.


> By that logic Genjutsu shouldn't have worked on Sasuke, or Itachi, during their battle because they had the Sharingan. But it worked, and they had to release themselves. Same deal with Kakashi and Obito.


Different types of genjutsu.
Specific types of genjutsu  make people picture stuff, which aren't happening in real time. When Sasuke & Itachi were using genjutsu on each other, they were standing still in real world.

In Mizukage's case, his genjutsu doesn't capture people's minds. Whatever is happening is happening in real world.

His genjutsu projects false imagery, sort of like a hologram.
Sharingan will see which is real and which isn't. Just like here: Mist Shinobi 



> Itachi can see through the Genjutsu, sure. However given the clam keeps producing that mist which the Trollkage uses to make the mirage... Itachi's pretty much going to always be within the illusion.


Like I said, false imagery won't work on sharingan. Itachi sees chakra. When he sees an image not radiaiting with chakra he'll understand that it is not real.




> Till Trollkage gets him with the magic finger. :ho



Why won't Itachi casually dodge that ?



ImSerious said:


> I dont know, im just saying hes being portrayed on a higher level than itachi,


No he isn't.
Like I said, your example is worthless.
If there was any merit in that, then he is portrayed on a higher level than Minato or Nagato as well.
Noone gave such reaction to Minato or Nagato either.




> so if they fought tobirama would probably be the victor.


Well ok, state your reasoning. What will he do against Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi or Susano'o ? Hell whats he going to do against Itachi's bunshin feints and taijutsu ? 




> What do you mean there's nothing to talk about. Which one would you say wins?


I'd say RS's sons probably, but there is no way to say how they'll win. So there is nothing to talk about.
And this is an extreme example. 
99% of Narutoverse defeats Konohomaru anyways.






> Sasori let them beat him, he gave up.


He lost in the end. And he was almost defeated @ that point, that last "lol I gave up" bit doesn't even redeem him.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 10, 2013)

Some things people are forgetting about the 3rd and 4th Kazekages are, aside from being able to wrap Itachi/Susanoo in metal, is their ability to impale Itachi with his own kunais/shurikens in his pouch. 

Also, people are forgetting that Susanoo has a time-limit and slows the user down. 



Strategoob said:


> "Itachi planned everything about that fight for you" is enough to conclude that Itachi was holding back prior to using Susano'o, because _everything_ is the operative word. It's straightforward.
> 
> This:



Itachi did plan that fight for Sasuke... the outcome, not the events of the fight. Itachi wanted to lose to receive his poetic justice. He also had to push Sasuke to draw Orochimaru out, so he couldn't fight with kiddy gloves on. Hell, he even whipped out Amaterasu and crossed his fingers that Sasuke could deal with it. It wasn't until he used Susanoo against a chakraless Sasuke that we actually saw Itachi hold back. 



Strategoob said:


> It wasn't ambiguous or contradictory... I  showed the clam receiving credit for the jutsu twice. In your scan, the  Mizukage talks about his jutsu, then uses a _kuchiyose_. The clam is in his arsenal, but the mirage is the clam's jutsu.
> 
> The Mizukage says his affinity is Yin, and we can thus assume that he is  a skilled genjutsu user, but the fact remains that he's never actually  been given credit for a genjutsu, which is why I inititally brought up  the point:
> 
> ...



I can understand your argument. However, Jiraiya was also given  credit for Frog Song though, and not only that but I don't believe that  Kishimoto would point out that he's a genjutsu master only for his  genjutsu to not be his. 

On that note, I don't believe the clam would be capable of  an Izanagi-like genjutsu either... which apparently all the clams would be  capable of if you're correct, since Muu killed one 50-some odd years ago.

I must also reiterate how, if you're correct, as soon as the mirage started that everything "Trollkage" did was actually the clam, everything that was said and done. Because of that, it's nearly impossible for me to believe that the clam would tell them how to kill itself, or that it was able to use Trollkage's abilities, even if it's capable of impeccable impersonations.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 10, 2013)

Hashirama- Mokuton dragon solos, Flower tree world, bringer of darkness, buddha.
Tobirama-Blitzs Itachi, cannon that sharingan can not keep up.
Hiruzen (old)-Itachi
Minato- FTG
Tsunade- Itachi
Sandaime Kazekage- Kazekage-Iron sand rain.
Gaara's Dad-Look above replace Iron with gold
Gaara-Look above replace gold with sand
Muu-Look above replace sand with jinton.
Oonoki-same as muu.
Trollkage- Jokey boi, clam, watergun.
Yagura- Itachi due to lack of feats.
Mei- Mei, mist abscures vision and melts through Susanoo.
Sandaime Raikage-Raikage, to fast and 1 finger pierces Susanoo.
A- Liger bomb

And the fight against Sasuke, Itachi was pushed to his limits, he died due to chakra exhaustion. You can say this is healthy Itachi, but we have never seen a healthy Itachi except maybe the first time he invaded Konoha. What does healthy Itachi have over regular Itachi besides brand new eyesight which deteriorates quite fast? He would die of chakra exhaustion before going blind.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 10, 2013)

Turrin said:


> You still seem to be missing the point of my post. Of course we don't know exactly how strong Izuna is and that is why I agree with you so far as Tobirama beating Izuna doesn't guarantee a victory against Itachi. However at the same time to completely discount Tobirama's feat of beating Izuna, just because we don't know the exact level of his strength is also wrong as it ignores the general hype of Sharingan/MS/Clan Leader that Izuna possesses. Izuna could be the weakest MS users we've seen to date, but common senses dictates  it would still be quite a feat for someone to defeat him. Look at Sasuke he was a total newb with MS against Killer B and even still injured by his fight with Itachi, but was B not hyped when he nearly killed Sasuke wiith Lariate after countering Sasuke's MS Genjutsu? Not that I think it's wise to assume Izuna was such a newb with MS as Sasuke was during the B fight, but you should see my point that simply defeating any level of Sharingan/MS is notable hype in this manga.
> 
> Also like I said beating an MS users does tell us some basic stuff about Tobirama. He obviously has a-lot of experience handling skilled Three Tome users and at least knows how to handle basic MS Genjutsu. Though I also think the suggestion is strong that he had handled Amaterasu & Enton before due to him showing knowledge of Enton in this battle.



The "point," as it were, is that we have no idea how strong Izuna was or what he could do.

So Tobirama beating him tells us absolutely nothing.

It is unquantifiable.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> If Itachi is in good health with eyesight, he either doesn't have MS or  is still a novice with it like Sasuke was at the Kage summit.



I didn't impose the condition that Itachi loses his experience or his MS. Itachi is healthy with good eyesight and at the same age as when he died, with his eye powers intact.

This is basically Edo Itachi minus regen and infinite chakra. Quit being a wet blanket.



> Hashirama - Itachi loses
> Tobirama - Itachi loses
> Hiruzen (old) - Itachi wins
> Minato - Itachi loses
> ...



Not surprising you would troll.

Not even a little bit surprising.



> Trollkage said he's an Inton user, then proceeds to use genjutsu. The clam is the medium that he uses to spread his illusion over the whole battlefield, the clam itself is never stated to be a genjutsu user. Also, the clam wouldn't perfectly imitate Trollkage and tell everyone how to kill itself.



We have seen summoners rely on the Jutsu of their summons before; you like that piece of shit Jiraiya, don't you? He did that a lot.

It doesn't really matter, as I'm pretty sure the Mizukage controls the Genjutsu either way. That said, your description of the mechanism behind it was unproven; that's all I was trying to say.



> A Sharingan user can see "through" a genjutsu in the context that they realize they are in one, not that it's not there. We have many instances of Sharingan users being 100% effects by genjutsu, even Itachi.



Back in the Forest of Death, Sasuke was able to recognize that the "clones" he and Naruto were fighting were actually just Genjutsu. So, on some level, yes- the Sharingan IS able to see through Genjutsu.

I don't know why this would even be called into question after Sasuke explicitly stated his Sharingan could see through Itachi's Genjutsu (after doing so).



> What we have seen is a genjutsu that didn't end. A "dream within a dream" is still just the same dream, it just hadn't ended yet, genjutsu is the same way. The user is able to manipulate what the opponent sees, so until the opponents counters it or loses, the user is able to change the illusion. And apparently it is important if it's a key point being made.



Yet the "layer" terminology comes from the observation that a part of the Genjutsu was seemingly controlled by Sasuke. To say it was all simply one, big Genjutsu ignores the fact that both brothers were casting it and both gained the upperhand at different points in the "dream." That would have been totally unnecessary if one of them had controlled the entire thing from the outset.

I don't know if there were any actual "layers" going on or if control of the Genjutsu was just shifting back and forth, but I find both of those explanations a lot more credible than the assumption that it was all just a single illusion progressing without change.



> I wouldn't call Itachi's skill "abnormal," you're just overhyping him.



Itachi was the one ninja in all of shinobi history Shikaku could think of who might be capable of controlling the Alliance forces to sabotage them from outside the range of their sensors. Orochimaru called his eye power "magnificent." He's repeatedly touted-

Wait, why am I even debating this with you? Anyone who denies that Itachi's Genjutsu skill was something special is an idiot. He's shown more in that area than anyone else in the series, and while he may not have the most power, it's undeniable that he excells in that respect too.

It is not "overhyping"; it's called "objectively looking at the difference between what Itachi has shown and what the average ninja has shown," which you would be able to do if you weren't so obstinate in your refusal to acknowledge that Itachi had any kind of talent whatsoever.



> Izuna was as strong as MS Madara.



How strong was MS Madara?



joshhookway said:


> Fixed



If you don't like it, don't post here.


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## ImSerious (Jul 10, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say RS's sons probably, but there is no way to say how they'll win. So there is nothing to talk about.
> And this is an extreme example.
> 99% of Narutoverse defeats Konohomaru anyways.



Ah, so you'd be willing to look at portrayal to decide a victor because if you looked at feats strictly you wouldnt be getting an accurate answer?


I rest my case


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 10, 2013)

Hashirama - *Hashirama with zero difficulty*. From this distance, he uses Bringer of Darkness Technique to blind Itachi, speedblitzes him, and uses Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kōtan to smash the disoriented Itachi away.
Tobirama - *Tobirama mid-difficulty*. From this distance, he can use Hiraishin to tag Itachi. Even if Itachi manages to erect Susano'o, Tobirama can just teleport inside and use Hiraishingiri to stab him fatally.
Hiruzen (old) - *Itachi mid-difficulty.* Hiruzen is a very tough opponent, but he isn't really equipped to fight Itachi. Genjutsu would be ineffective for either, and Hiruzen doesn't have the stamina to outlast Itachi due to his old age. He'll get tagged by Amaterasu and die in the flames.
Minato - *Minato no difficulty*. Even his _shunshin_ is enough to blitz Itachi, being faster than three Hokages. He uses Shunshin, tags Itachi, scatters his kunai around and zips from place to place as Itachi tries tagging him. Like Tobirama, since Itachi'd been tagged, even if he bunkers down in Susano'o Minato would just _teleport inside_ and smash Itachi with a Rasengan to the back before he could react due to the strain on his body.
Tsunade - Itachi high difficulty. Itachi needs to be in Susano'o in the higher levels for most of this fight to win. He can't speedblitz her (several Susano'o's weren't able to do so), she's superior to him in sheer CQC, When he gets into Susano'o's higher levels, he effectively is immune to damage unless Tsunade hits a weakpoint. Thus Itachi would win.
Sandaime Kazekage - *Itachi should win*. Sandaime Kazekage has zero feats.
Gaara's Dad - *Itachi wins.* The Yondaime Kazekage hasn't shown not nearly enough to be put on Itachi's tier. 
Gaara - *Gaara should win.* Once he's airborne, which he can do very quickly, he's out of Itachi's range and he can swamp the battlefield with his sand. Thus, he could yank Itachi out of Susano'o and then crush him. Or he could bury him under a wave. *However, if he's left on the ground, Itachi should win.* Though Gaara is more likely to get into the air at this distance.
Muu - *Mu should win*. His Invisibility Technique erases his chakra, thus would be invisible to Itachi's Sharingan. Thus he can sneak on Itachi's blindspot and blast him with a Jinton. 
Onoki - Onoki should win. Again, aerial advantage. Once in the air, he can blast Itachi with leisure with his Jinton. Even with Susano'o, Jinton tears through it and Itachi would die. Hell before hand, he can even weigh Itachi down with a tap thus slowing his movements and reactions.
Trollkage - *Second Mizukage wins*. His genjutsu operates in the same principle as the Kirigakure no Jutsu, which blinds the Sharingan since it is just a mass of chakra. Itachi can't find the clam due to this even if he could break the genjutsu, and he's eventually left open for Joki Boi or Mizudeppō no Jutsu through the skull.
Yagura - *Yagura wins.* Perfect Jinchuriki means he's immune to Itachi's genjutsu. If Itachi brings out Susano'o, Yagura fully transforms and blasts away with Bijudama which Itachi's Susano'o can't survive.
Mei - *Itachi wins with ease.* Mei did the worse against Madara's Susano'o Clones, and while her Suiton may counter Itachi's Katon with ease, she doesn't have the reflexes to deal with what Itachi brings to the table. 
Sandaime Raikage - *Sandaime Raikage wins.* Tanks everything Itachi can dish out, outspeeds Itachi, and can shove his Nukite through Itachi's Susano'o and impale him. Itachi's only chance is Amaterasu, which given Itachi's charge time for it, won't be able to hit (even Sasuke when using no special speed or even Shunshin could avoid). 
A -*A wins.* Again, he's just a bad matchup for Itachi. He's more than fast enough to speedblitz him, can tank Itachi's lesser jutsus even if they hits, A can avoid Amaterasu with a quicker charge time, and if Susano'o is put up A can tear through the ribcage or just continually avoid the slashes and attacks until Itachi exhausts himself, and then A can Raiga Bombu him.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 10, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I didn't impose the condition that Itachi loses his experience or his MS. Itachi is healthy with good eyesight and at the same age as when he died, with his eye powers intact.
> 
> This is basically Edo Itachi minus regen and infinite chakra. Quit being a wet blanket.
> 
> ...



Sooo... fanfiction Itachi then. Yeah, that'll give you an accurate assessment. lol. Of course though, Edo Itachi performed as well as living Itachi did. 

How am I trolling? 

Hashirama - Itachi loses, obviously.
Tobirama - He eats MS, he's powerful, he has FTG and zombies. 
Hiruzen (old) - Itachi wins, I gave you that. 
Minato - Minato is too fast to touch and he's powerful. 
Tsunade - I gave you this.
Sandaime Kazekage - Itachi gets trapped/crushed/impaled. Might be a draw. 
Gaara's Dad - Itachi gets trapped/crushed/impaled. Might be a draw. 
Gaara - Itachi gets trapped/crushed. Gaara has auto-defense.
Muu - Invisibility, Jinton
Oonoki - I gave you this, although it might be a draw.
Trollkage - Mirage, Jouki Boi, Water Gun, Hydrification. 
Yagura - A perfect Jin that could give KCM Naruto trouble. 
Mei - I gave you this, although it's possible for her to win. 
Sandaime Raikage - Too fast, can't be harmed, destroys everything. 
A - Too fast, outlasts Itachi.

Jiraiya has 3x more jutsus than Itachi, without summons, and he didn't need Sharingan to be as good as he is. Oh, and Itachi uses his crows a lot too, so don't be a hypocrite. 

Sasuke realized they were in a genjutsu, but was still affected by it. 

It doesn't ignore anything, the genjutsu user can change the imagery until the genjutsu ends. It's like Sasori can control his puppets however he wants with his puppet strings, he isn't limited to just one motion. 

And he was wrong, Itachi was immediately eliminated as a suspect. You're using speculation, which was regarded as false, as proof. 

Itachi has relied on genjutsu more than anyone else, that's all. It failed against Kurenai, it failed against Naruto, it failed against Kakashi, it failed against Sasuke, it failed against Bee, it failed against Orochimaru; the only one it has been successful against is Deidara, and he was 9. That is of course not counting Tsukiyomi, which is a super genjutsu provided by MS (which worked one time, and semi-worked the other). Otherwise yes, he's highly skilled in genjutsu, but he's not the only one and genjutsu is overrated. It's really just a plot device Kishimoto uses. 

You know damn well how much credit I give to Itachi's abilities. Don't be a wet blanket. The facts are that he isn't perfect, his abilities are relative in the series, he has his strengths and _weaknesses_. He's high-tiered but there are others in the same tier, and there are others higher than them. 

MS Madara was strong enough to beat Muu and Onoki at the same time.


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## Big Mom (Jul 10, 2013)

Where the hell is Danzo on that list?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 10, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Hell, he even whipped out Amaterasu and crossed his fingers that Sasuke could deal with it.



This is the implicit conclusion that makes me think Munboy and yourself are wrong about rejecting the statement that Itachi had planned everything about the fight. I mean, really? He rolled the dice with Amaterasu?


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## Nikushimi (Jul 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tobirama - *Tobirama mid-difficulty*. From this distance, he can use Hiraishin to tag Itachi. Even if Itachi manages to erect Susano'o, Tobirama can just teleport inside and use Hiraishingiri to stab him fatally.



How does Tobirama tag Itachi with Hiraishin if Itachi puts Susano'o up?

For that matter, what evidence is there that Tobirama can do this in the first place?



> Sandaime Kazekage - *Itachi should win*. Sandaime Kazekage has zero feats.
> Gaara's Dad - *Itachi wins.* The Yondaime Kazekage hasn't shown not nearly enough to be put on Itachi's tier.
> Gaara - *Gaara should win.* Once he's airborne, which he can do very quickly, he's out of Itachi's range and he can swamp the battlefield with his sand. Thus, he could yank Itachi out of Susano'o and then crush him. Or he could bury him under a wave. *However, if he's left on the ground, Itachi should win.* Though Gaara is more likely to get into the air at this distance.



Why would the Sandaime and Yondaime Kazekages be unable to win if Gaara can? They should be able to float on their Jiton particles, too.



> Muu - *Mu should win*. His Invisibility Technique erases his chakra, thus would be invisible to Itachi's Sharingan. Thus he can sneak on Itachi's blindspot and blast him with a Jinton.



The match starts at 5m; how does Muu do this before Itachi attacks him?



> Onoki - Onoki should win. Again, aerial advantage. Once in the air, he can blast Itachi with leisure with his Jinton. Even with Susano'o, Jinton tears through it and Itachi would die. Hell before hand, he can even weigh Itachi down with a tap thus slowing his movements and reactions.



Several problems with this:

1. How is Oonoki going to escape Itachi's range before Itachi attacks him?

2. How is Oonoki going to "tap" Itachi without getting killed?

3. If Oonoki puts distance between himself and Itachi, he is increasing the distance his attacks have to travel and increasing the time Itachi has to dodge or counter them.



> If Itachi brings out Susano'o, Yagura fully transforms and blasts away with Bijudama which Itachi's Susano'o can't survive.



Susano'o can survive Bijuudama. The Hachibi survived Bijuudama; the Raikage successfully cut its horn off while he failed to cut all the way through Sasuke's mini-Susano'o.



> Mei - *Itachi wins with ease.* Mei did the worse against Madara's Susano'o Clones, and while her Suiton may counter Itachi's Katon with ease, *she doesn't have the reflexes to deal with what Itachi brings to the table.*



If find it strange that you believe Mei is the only Kage for whom this holds true.

Gaara, Gaara's Dad, the 3rd Kazekage, Tsunade, Hiruzen, and Trollkage don't strike me as being noticeably faster than her.



> Sandaime Raikage - *Sandaime Raikage wins.* Tanks everything Itachi can dish out, outspeeds Itachi, and can shove his Nukite through Itachi's Susano'o and impale him. Itachi's only chance is Amaterasu, which given Itachi's charge time for it, won't be able to hit (even Sasuke when using no special speed or even Shunshin could avoid).



But Sasuke did not avoid it; it hit him.

And I wouldn't call running for his life "using no special speed."



> A -*A wins.* Again, he's just a bad matchup for Itachi. He's more than fast enough to speedblitz him, can tank Itachi's lesser jutsus even if they hits, A can avoid Amaterasu with a quicker charge time, and if Susano'o is put up A can tear through the ribcage or just continually avoid the slashes and attacks until Itachi exhausts himself, and then A can Raiga Bombu him.



So what happens if Itachi clone feints and gets A from a blind spot?



UltimateDeadpool said:


> Sooo... fanfiction Itachi then. Yeah, that'll give you an accurate assessment. lol. Of course though, Edo Itachi performed as well as living Itachi did.



There are some people who don't agree with that; it's just one more needless debate I didn't want to have.



> How am I trolling?



Your list is even worse than SSM12's. Yeah, you are trolling.



> Hashirama - Itachi loses, obviously.



Granted.



> Tobirama - He eats MS, he's powerful, he has FTG and zombies.



This should be a "maybe" given that we don't know that much about Tobirama.



> Hiruzen (old) - Itachi wins, I gave you that.



Yeah, you admitted Itachi could beat the guy who was weaker than the guy who admitted he was weaker than Itachi. How generous of you.



> Minato - Minato is too fast to touch and he's powerful.



I'm not touching this one with a 40-ft. Totsuka Blade.



> Tsunade - I gave you this.



Another bottom-five Kage; generous.



> Sandaime Kazekage - Itachi gets trapped/crushed/impaled. Might be a draw.
> Gaara's Dad - Itachi gets trapped/crushed/impaled. Might be a draw.
> Gaara - Itachi gets trapped/crushed. Gaara has auto-defense.



None of these guys can stop Susano'o with the limited quantity of Jiton particles available on their person by default (assuming Gaara's dad can spit out a quantity comparable to the 3rd's). They are also well within range of Genjutsu, and if they are avoiding that, they are at risk of taking Amaterasu.

Or Itachi can just obscure LOS with a Katon, clone feint, and then shank them from a blindspot.

The 3rd lost to Sasori and the 4th lost to Orochimaru. There's absolutely no reason Itachi'd be unable to beat them if those two could- particularly an SK-less Sasori.



> Muu - Invisibility, Jinton



Itachi- Genjutsu (including finger and Tsukuyomi), Katon, Suiton, clones, Amaterasu, Susano'o, Magatama...

Listing off techniques doesn't mean anything, and even if we just go by that, Itachi has far more options.

Muu doesn't turn invisible instantly; if he tries, and if the Sharingan really can't see him, Itachi won't let him go without desperately trying to land an attack. I really don't think Jinton is stopping Amaterasu, either; more like the opposite.



> Oonoki - I gave you this, although it might be a draw.



You said Itachi loses this one.



> Trollkage - Mirage, Jouki Boi, Water Gun, Hydrification.



Again, you are just randomly naming Jutsu without explaining how they are going to be employed before Itachi kills the everloving shit out of the user. The Mizukage has to summon his clam and the clam has to release its mist or whatever the fuck before the Genjutsu takes effect. What is Itachi doing while this is all going on? What is saving the Mizukage's ass from Genjutsu, Amaterasu, or Susano'o? His emeffing water pistol? I don't think so.

Jokey Boy can simply be blocked with Susano'o as-needed until Itachi gets a chance to clone feint out of there and go hide. Amaterasu may even destroy it.

But it's pretty much immaterial at this point, because the likelihood of the Mizukage even getting his Genjutsu in effect before Itachi roadhauls him is extremely poor.



> Yagura - A perfect Jin that could give KCM Naruto trouble.



...With Sharingan's perceptual boost and Rinnegan's shared vision (with the other Jinchuuriki), and controlled manually by Obito.

I don't know about you, but I don't find the prospect of Yagura giving KCM Naruto any trouble on his own (minus Bijuu transformation) too terribly likely based on what he showed.



> Mei - I gave you this, although it's possible for her to win.



Arguably the weakest Kage; only Hiruzen challenges her for that title.



> Sandaime Raikage - Too fast, can't be harmed, destroys everything.



Wasn't too fast for Naruto (in KCM or Sage Mode), Amaterasu can harm him, and Itachi can evade his attacks with Sharingan or block/deflect with Susano'o.



> A - Too fast, outlasts Itachi.



Itachi can clone feint really fast, which could allow him to get to A's blindspot if LOS is blocked and he times it right.



> Jiraiya has 3x more jutsus than Itachi, without summons, and he didn't need Sharingan to be as good as he is.



Which is totally irrelevant to what I said, but noted.



> Oh, and Itachi uses his crows a lot too, so don't be a hypocrite.



Itachi's crows don't have Jutsu and Itachi doesn't really use them for anything other than distractions or clones (which is his Jutsu, not theirs).



> Sasuke realized they were in a genjutsu, but was still affected by it.



And then he broke out of it and nearly stabbed Itachi in the face with Eisou to make his point.



> It doesn't ignore anything, the genjutsu user can change the imagery until the genjutsu ends. It's like Sasori can control his puppets however he wants with his puppet strings, he isn't limited to just one motion.



Why would Itachi change the imagery to make it look like Sasuke Genjutsu'd him? It's not like Sasuke is going to be fooled into thinking that he cast Genjutsu on Itachi if he didn't.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 10, 2013)

> And he was wrong, Itachi was immediately eliminated as a suspect.



But it's still telling that Itachi was the specific person Shikaku thought was potentially responsible for it.

He didn't even say "This might be Madara's doing" or "This might be Shisui's doing."

Itachi was the one who came to mind.

That's a pretty clear indication that Itachi's Genjutsu skill was something special. And if it's not clear enough, you can go check out his stats in the third databook, which gives him a 5 in Genjutsu (the maximum score), something only four other shinobi up to that point in the manga had managed to achieve.



> You're using speculation, which was regarded as false, as proof.



Where's the speculation?



> Itachi has relied on genjutsu more than anyone else, that's all. It failed against Kurenai,



Itachi reversed Kurenai's Genjutsu on her; it didn't just "fail." Kurenai was the one who failed and she only managed to escape using the method of inflicting pain to disspell the illusion, which has nothing to do with skill or power (even though she is one of those special ninja with a 5 in Genjutsu).

Sasuke used the same trick to cope with Orochimaru's bloodlust in the Forest of Death; that doesn't mean it simply failed to affect him.



> it failed against Naruto,



?

No it didn't. Point-blank.

I don't even know how to address this other than simply telling you you're wrong; Naruto was helpless until Chiyo and Sakura broke him out of it and he was helpless again when he ran into Itachi's crow clone in the woods.



> it failed against Kakashi,



Tsukuyomi didn't. And Kakashi is no amateur at Genjutsu.



> it failed against Sasuke,



Sasuke has Sharingan, Uchiha blood, and a high level of skill himself; even then, he didn't break Tsukuyomi without visible difficulty and even that was pretty dubious given the circumstances of the fight.



> it failed against Bee,



B is a perfect Jinchuuriki; if he hadn't been, it would've worked just fine.



> it failed against Orochimaru;



It worked well enough to give Itachi a shot at attacking him physically.

Orochimaru complimented his eye power, too, btw.



> the only one it has been successful against is Deidara, and he was 9. That is of course not counting Tsukiyomi, which is a super genjutsu provided by MS (which worked one time, and semi-worked the other). Otherwise yes, he's highly skilled in genjutsu, but he's not the only one and genjutsu is overrated.



You are underrating Genjutsu based entirely on the fact that he didn't just end all his fights with it; that does not define success or failure.

It especially bugs me that you go and say this shit next with a clear conscience:



> It's really just a plot device Kishimoto uses.



Bingo.

That's every Jutsu in the manga, pretty much.

It's not that Itachi's Genjutsu failed repeatedly; it's just that shinobi have had ways to escape or resist them in some capacity without taking Itachi on in Genjutsu itself.

So how you could say something like this right after criticizing Genjutsu for being escaped a majority of the time is beyond me. This is the same biased treatment Amaterasu gets; the reality is, most Jutsu don't have a stellar success rate. For all the hype Jinton has received, it hasn't killed a single damn person yet. Does that mean it is not extremely dangerous? Hell no.

Genjutsu is hax as fuck and Itachi is one who far outperforms most shinobi in that area; the fact that there are ways to get around it does not diminish this.



> You know damn well how much credit I give to Itachi's abilities. Don't be a wet blanket. The facts are that he isn't perfect, his abilities are relative in the series, he has his strengths and _weaknesses_. He's high-tiered but there are others in the same tier, and there are others higher than them.



You have Itachi losing to every Kage except for Hiruzen, Tsunade, and Mei.

For a guy who is supposed to be stronger than Orochimaru, you are definitely not giving him enough credit.



> MS Madara was strong enough to beat Muu and Onoki at the same time.



Was that MS Madara or EMS Madara? I thought it was EMS Madara.

Either way, I wouldn't put it past Itachi to do the same; he can do all the same things Madara can with comparable speed and probably superior intelligence; he just doesn't match up to Madara's power or stamina, which is totally irrelevant against Jinton (because Madara couldn't withstand that, either).

By the way, if we're treating Muu like he was the same back then, I find it rather telling that he was defeated by *a Sharingan user*.

Frankly, there's no reason the whole "Go invisible -> kill with Jinton" strategy wouldn't work on Madara, if indeed the Sharingan cannot see Muu. The fact that it didn't leads me to suspect that Muu's invisibility does not fool the Sharingan (or any Doujutsu, probably).

I would dearly like to see Muu fight Nagato and not get torn inside-out in a matter of seconds.


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## Jad (Jul 10, 2013)

When Itachi casts Tsukuyomi, can he do anything in that world? Like make your eyes melt and your brain explode? OR can he only do that 72 hour stabbing?


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## ueharakk (Jul 10, 2013)

Jad said:


> When Itachi casts Tsukuyomi, can he do anything in that world? Like make your eyes melt and your brain explode? OR can he only do that 72 hour stabbing?



Itachi used tsukuyomi on kid sasuke to make him relive his parent's death over and over again.  He also used tsukuyomi on hebi sasuke to make him experience itachi chocke slaming him into a wall and picking out one of sasuke's sharingans.

he theoretically can do anything, but definitely is not limited to just 72 hour stabbing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 11, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Ah, so you'd be willing to look at portrayal to decide a victor because if you looked at feats strictly you wouldnt be getting an accurate answer?
> 
> 
> I rest my case



If you are comparing possibiliy the strongest characters outside RS to the weakest one then yeah.

But neither Tobirama is the strongest nor Itachi is the weakest.
Tobirama being portrayed stronger than Itachi is solely your opinion and based on your argument Tobirama is portrayed on a higher level than anyone except Hashirama and Madara.

If you want to make a power scaling based on portrayal, go to Konoha library. 
BD is for matches where substantial arguments can be to used to determine the winner.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 11, 2013)

At 5 meters, Itachi has a ridiculous advantage within this match-up.

Excluding Hashirama/Minato, Itachi destroys nearly all of them. The Yondaime Raikage could *potentially* survive - due to his evasive nature - but the possibility that he fails to amplify his chakra is rather high (before Amaterasu connects). In order to prevent Tsukuyomi and other illusions, such knowledge indicates the opponents will avoid eye contact; this isn't a good idea against someone like Itachi, though, unless you happen to be a sensor with top-tier reflexes/worthy defense. That said, there are a few people who can escape the initial onslaught unscathed - on an equal footing, that is - and the list is comprised of Ei, Hashirama, Minato, Mū and Tobirama (perhaps). However, the stipulations are geared toward Hashirama/Itachi/Minato, which is why the others don't stand a chance.

To the group claiming Tobirama is superior to Itachi:
Such people have misinterpreted the manga and its overall direction. Under favorable circumstances, he can fight through reincarnated shinobi to outlast Itachi, but it has been made clear that his version of Edo Tensei wasn't perfected; Minato has a better Shunshin (probably FTG, too); and I don't think his Suiton variants are comparable to what Kisame portrayed, considering the latter boasts a chakra reservoir akin to Jins. Regarding portrayal, Hashirama trumps a majority of the characters, whereas Itachi and Minato are placed on a similar level.

All in all, Hashirama shouldn't be discussed, while the way I feel about a fight between Itachi and Minato is too ambiguous; there are many factors to consider.


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## Kai (Jul 11, 2013)

Itachi should be above all of the Kages except Hashirama and Minato, who are both above him clearly. Tobirama is by no means a given, but the possibility is very real that he is stronger than Itachi. 

Onoki and Muu would probably give Itachi the highest degree of difficulty if you expand on the starting distance. Onoki has the greatest firepower bar Hashirama to obliterate Susano'o, and Muu nullifies even the Sharingan's extrasensory vision (stated to erase his own chakra signature).


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## ImSerious (Jul 11, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you are comparing possibiliy the strongest characters outside RS to the weakest one then yeah.



Like i said, its the same thing. In both cases you wouldnt be staying faithful to the manga if you didnt take portrayal into consideration.



> But neither Tobirama is the strongest nor Itachi is the weakest.



Thats why i said Tobirama probably wins, instead of tobirama murderrapestomps(as in RS sons vs konohamaru). Its still the same thing.



> Tobirama being portrayed stronger than Itachi is solely your opinion and based on your argument Tobirama is portrayed on a higher level than anyone except Hashirama and Madara.



And Minato, dont forget him 

And Naruto and Obito. But yeah, thats about it.



> BD is for matches where substantial arguments can be to used to determine the winner.



Then OP shouldnt have included Tobirama.


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## Alita (Jul 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I know the title sounds bad, but it isn't really.
> 
> This is one-on-one with full restoration for each match, guys. Chill.
> 
> ...



He's definately not beating hashi, tobirama(Via powerscaling), muu, and minato. If he fights the kazekages in the desert they can beat him too.

Restrict genjutsu and the raikages along with possiblly onoki and trollkage could beat him too.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> This is the implicit conclusion that makes me think Munboy and yourself are wrong about rejecting the statement that Itachi had planned everything about the fight. I mean, really? He rolled the dice with Amaterasu?



However intelligent Itachi may be, he's not psychic. It is not possible for him to know the extent of Sasuke's skills over 3 years, to know all the Raitons and Katons that he had learned, his mastery of the Curse Seal, or even that he reversed the soul transfer and was actually able to use some of Orochimaru's abilities. Beyond that, it would had been impossible to determine what moves Sasuke would use in the fight and when. 

And he actually _made_ it hit Sasuke when he clearly had the chance not to. There's no other way around it. Itachi really did roll the dice with Amaterasu.





Nikushimi said:


> There are some people who don't agree with  that; it's just one more needless debate I didn't want to have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are people that agree with which part?

You don't like opinions where characters may actually be a threat to Itachi. 

Then why include him on the list? 

Orochimaru didn't say he was weaker than Itachi. 

Then we'll avoid that debacle. 

Why include her on the list if you think it's insulting?

3rd  and 4th Kazekage were shown to possess a great quantity of metal,  easily enough to bind Susanoo which isn't really that large in itself.  Gaara's dad was able to make enough to stop a tidal wave of sand, hold  it down, and still have a lot more to fight with. 
Genjutsu is  avoidable, and Amaterasu is really the only way I see Itachi being able  to win if they don't keep some of their metal on the defensive; Gaara's  dad at least can completely encase himself for protection while using  his Third Eye jutsu to watch what's going on. Also though, Itachi  carries weapons with him and the Kazekages can just make his weapons  explode out of his pouch and tear him apart. 
Sasori and Orochimaru  are not Itachi, they possess vastly different abilities; Sasori probably  stalled until his poison killed the 3rd Kazekage, and Orochimaru is  unkillable so the 4th's jutsus aren't going to do anything to him  anyway. 
Gaara also showed to stop Madara's Susanoo and rip him out  of it with a smaller amount of sand than he usually uses. The other  Kazekages should be capable of the same. Not only that, but if Susanoo's  just restrained, then Itachi's screwed in a waiting game. 

Muu  can render himself into a stealth bomber with his abilities, his sensing  is even incredibly powerful. He can turn himself invisible fast enough,  and with his impressive speed and flight, Itachi wouldn't know which  way he ducked off in. Why would Amaterasu stop Jinton? It destroys  molecules, it would erase Amaterasu from existence. Even if you're right  and Amaterasu is super magical, then it doesn't really matter since Muu  can use more Jinton than Itachi can use Amaterasu. 

My mistake,  although thinking about it, it's hard to call a winner. Onoki can stay  out of Itachi's range and bomb him, make clones to bomb him even more,  and also create Golems to keep Itachi busy on the ground. Itachi could  only really win if: A. he can manage to keep Onoki nearby somehow, or B.  if Itachi can somehow defend until Onoki runs out of chakra. It'll be a  hard fight for both of them. 

Trollkage has to pretty much let  Itachi use genjutsu on him, Susanoo has a limited range and takes a few  moments to fully form itself, Amaterasu is your best argument here but  it's hard to say what would happen for sure, first of all Amaterasu  takes a moment itself to use and we don't know what Trollkage's speed  is, and Trollkage could have a means to expunge Amaterasu off of him  since he is made of water. He could even kick start Jouki Boy, this  could have any number of results, such as Trollkage and Jouki Boi  reforming Amaterasu-free or even Itachi being showed by burning water. I  could also say though that Itachi using MS right away is OOC. Trollkage  can seep into the ground with Hydrification and find a hiding place to  get the ball rolling. It would definitely be trolling if he seeped  inside Susanoo and summoned his clam, lol. 
Trollkage could also just  start the fight with Jouki Boi, then reform in a safe location and use  the mirage, giving Itachi a double-whammy. 

Yagura only had a  small spotlight, but he was impressive. He was fast enough to use Water  Mirror (which is a vague ability) before Naruto's attack reached him and also cover him in coral  which he couldn't break even with his super strength. Then there are his  tails which can be used for various purposes in battle, his protective  Bijuu shroud with his strength/speed enhancing abilities and Bijuudamas.  

Don't dis Hiruzen, and you probably shouldn't dis her either.  Skilled Mist, Melting Apparition, Hidden Mist, Water Dragon Missile,  Water Encampment Wall; she has a formidable combination. I just don't  know if she's a master of silent killing like Zabuza is to make full use  of Hidden Mist. 

KCM Naruto only gets a speed boost when using  Body Flicker, and Sage Mode has super speed so that's not surprising.  How long will it take Amaterasu to harm him, IF hit? Itachi may be able  to defend but he should eventually get overwhelmed by 3rd Raikage's  speed if he doesn't fall back quick enough. And 3rd Raikage uses a  kumite through Susanoo, as well as use black lightning to fill distance  gaps and keep Itachi on the defensive. 

Itachi can plot hax  really fast, but he can't use that here. Ei is superbly fast and  superbly durable, he was even stopping Susanoo swords with his hand. 

One  of the crows have Koto Amatsukami, lol. That's besides the point  though, the fact is that Itachi relies on summons too, whatever their  purpose is. 

Sasuke didn't break anything, it was a genjutsu  battle that they mutually ended. Sasuke just knew it was a genjutsu, but  that Itachi was an illusion too. 

...What? They were having a  genjutsu battle with each other, Itachi didn't change anything to look  like Sasuke was whatever, blah-blah.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 11, 2013)

Jad said:


> When Itachi casts Tsukuyomi, can he do anything in that world? Like make your eyes melt and your brain explode? OR can he only do that 72 hour stabbing?



Courtesy of Gottheim (bold/emphasis added):


Databook 2 p.252

NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI: Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. *But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!*

Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, *the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible*. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.

Captions

-An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one's heart and soul!!

-The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.

Picture comments

-The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they've never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, *the world's principles themselves obey the caster's beck and call*.

-Since attacks in the spiriutual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.

-Only those of Uchiha blood... Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?

-*The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.*

*阿鼻叫喚 (abikyoukan) translates as "agonizing cries", or "pandemonium". It's also a specific name for a couple of hellish realms in Buddhism. Try Wikipedia or Onmark Productions for better info.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 11, 2013)

Cont...



Nikushimi said:


> But it's still telling that Itachi was the   specific person Shikaku thought was potentially responsible for it.
> 
> He didn't even say "This might be Madara's doing" or "This might be Shisui's doing."
> 
> ...



I clap my hands for Itachi in that regard, but the range was the  only  thing being discussed remember, not the strength of the genjutsu. 

Itachi's genjutsu failed against Kurenai. That's what happened. 

Itachi tried to put Naruto to sleep, Naruto resisted. It failed. 

Tsukiyomi  is a super genjutsu, which Kakashi resisted. Kakashi also  said it  wouldn't work twice and he later used a clone feint which  tricked Itachi  the second time.

How can Itachi trust Sasuke to stop Tobi if he  can't break Tsukiyomi?  Sharingan can't stop Tsukiyomi either, as stated  by Itachi. 

The point is he broke it, and even if it wasn't Bee, Kishimoto wouldn't had let genjutsu beat Naruto either. 

But it failed, even if Itachi was a step away from him. 

What's funny is that you're in the boat that thinks he can just end all of his fights with genjutsu. 

You  say genjutsu is hax as fuck and Itachi's better at it than everyone   else, which is what spurred me to say what I said with a clear   conscience. I'm stressing the fact that it's not actually haxxed as   fuck, it's just a vague and poorly defined ability, that's not rare,   which Kishimoto uses for shock value and plot. If it were anywhere near   as hax as you think it is, Kurenai and Shii would be Kages and would be   almost invincible. Hell, SM Naruto would had stood no chance against  MS  Sasuke by virtue of genjutsu alone, yet they were stated to be  equals.  Within the context of the manga, genjutsu isn't a broken  ability. 

Those people are powerful and have ways of combating Itachi's abilities, and many of them would also give Orochimaru trouble for different reasons. The fact is that Itachi could probably beat them, but they also have a decent chance of beating Itachi as well. It really depends on how the fight is played out, which is really just all speculation. There are no guarantees. Each character has different strengths and weaknesses, those strengths and weaknesses may be another characters' weakness and strength, and there are also other factors such as the battlefield, strategy, and such. That's really why I hate tier lists. 
You  should have said "supposedly" stronger than Orochimaru. Orochimaru   never said Itachi was more powerful, he was saying that he couldn't  take  Itachi's body. He tried before and failed, Itachi resisted it, he  was  too strong to take over. Sasuke was also too strong to take over,  but  was physically no match for armless Orochimaru. With his arms back,   Orochimaru was deemed a threat to EMS Sasuke. We really don't know how   Itachi and Orochimaru compare, but Sasuke must be more powerful than   Itachi by now since we're near the end of the manga and Itachi was his   benchmark.

It was EMS Madara, but he only used his minimum power, and never used anything like Perfect Susanoo. 

Madara  is treated on a different scale than other characters, people didn't  even know his true power and thought he was still powerful enough to do whatever he wanted. You can't compare him to Itachi at all. 

He was defeated by the Uchiha god. 

I  don't know how Madara won, just like I don't know how Hanzo beat the  young Sannin. Kishimoto is just telling us what he wants us to know.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 11, 2013)

I swear... Itachi threads in the BD, KL, or KT are always filled with overwhelming wank, or unrelenting hate. And more often than not, a combination of the two...

FInd it kinda funny actually


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## Nikushimi (Jul 11, 2013)

UD, you really need to start multi-quoting like a normal person. It'll be easier for you, it'll be easier for me, and it'll be easier for everyone else.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> There are people that agree with which part?



There are people who think living Itachi could not replicate Edo Itachi's Taijutsu feats because of his illness. I felt that argument was a complete waste of time, so I just said "healthy Itachi blah blah blah."



> You don't like opinions where characters may actually be a threat to Itachi.



Is it possible to have an "opinion" that Itachi loses to every Kage except Mei, Tsunade, and Hiruzen? Is that not just objectively wrong? 



> Then why include him on the list?



Personal opinion.

I actually don't fault you for this one; I was just saying how I felt about it.



> Orochimaru didn't say he was weaker than Itachi.



the same way



> Why include her on the list if you think it's insulting?



Based on results, there are actually several people who are dumb enough to think she can beat Itachi here.

Besides, it wouldn't be a complete list of the known Kage without her; just because Itachi stomps her doesn't mean she should be excluded. By that reasoning, Hashirama shouldn't be here, either, because he stomps Itachi. And 90% of everyone these days feels the same way about Minato.

Yet I included them anyway.



> 3rd  and 4th Kazekage were shown to possess a great quantity of metal,  easily enough to bind Susanoo which isn't really that large in itself.  Gaara's dad was able to make enough to stop a tidal wave of sand, hold  it down, and still have a lot more to fight with.



Satetsu showed way more power than Gaara's sand or the 4th's gold dust and Sakura was able to knock it away casually. It isn't doing anything to Susano'o in the limited quantities available here; Itachi's held off the Yamata no Jutsu, which was much more massive.

Also notice how Gaara wasn't able to do anything to Madara except remove him from Susano'o with Oonoki's help; none of this "overpowering Susano'o with tidal waves" crap you are convinced of for some strange reason.

For that matter, Sakura and Chiyo were both able to just dodge Satetsu and block its high-speed attacks with chakra shields that only cover from one direction.



> Genjutsu is  avoidable,



Sure, but at the cost of being able to see Itachi execute Ninjutsu.



> and Amaterasu is really the only way I see Itachi being able  to win if they don't keep some of their metal on the defensive; Gaara's  dad at least can completely encase himself for protection while using  his Third Eye jutsu to watch what's going on.



However, as Gaara pointed out and as you seem to forget, gold is an excellent conductor of heat. That's how Gaara was able to stop Jokey Boy with it. If the Kazekage encases himself in a gold room with no windows, he's going to be baked alive by Amaterasu.



> Also though, Itachi  carries weapons with him and the Kazekages can just make his weapons  explode out of his pouch and tear him apart.



The ability doesn't work like that, or else Sakura and Chiyo would've been killed effortlessly. I'm pretty sure the weapons have to actually be brought into the range of the Kazekages' magnetic fields in order to be manipulated.



> Sasori and Orochimaru  are not Itachi, they possess vastly different abilities;



They possess vastly inferior abilities; there is NOTHING they bring to the table that Itachi cannot trump by an entire order of magnitude with his Mangekyou Sharingan. He has the better Genjutsu, the better Ninjutsu, he's faster, and he's got the benefit of a defensive Jutsu the Kazekage can't breach. What could Sasori or Orochimaru do to the Kazekage that Itachi couldn't? If they are even able to HIT the Kazekage at all, there goes your entire argument against Itachi's chances.



> Sasori probably  stalled until his poison killed the 3rd Kazekage,



If Sasori could physically hit the Kazekage at all, what is stopping Itachi from blitzing and chopping his head off, let alone using a faster/stronger method of attack like Amaterasu or Susano'o?



> and Orochimaru is  unkillable so the 4th's jutsus aren't going to do anything to him  anyway.



Pretty sure suffocation would kill Orochimaru, as would being crushed to a pulp. Orochimaru also has limited stamina, so constantly healing himself with Oral Rebirth would render him exhausted in no time if the Kazekage could simply overwhelm him.

Also, the Kazekage being unable to kill him would be one thing, but that doesn't explain how Orochimaru could've KILLED the Kazekage. There is no way for Orochimaru to kill the Kazekage that Itachi could not do better. Kusanagi? Totsuka. Snakes? Susano'o. Genjutsu? Lol.



> Gaara also showed to stop Madara's Susanoo and rip him out  of it with a smaller amount of sand than he usually uses. The other  Kazekages should be capable of the same.



Gaara's sand was lightened by Oonoki to increase its speed. Without that, Madara- or Itachi -could just dodge.



> Not only that, but if Susanoo's  just restrained, then Itachi's screwed in a waiting game.



The Kazekage do not have the power to physically restrain Susano'o; all Gaara did was hold it down while he pulled Madara out of it. Madara's Susano'o broke through Gaara's sand AND Oonoki's stone at the same time.



> Muu  can render himself into a stealth bomber with his abilities, his sensing  is even incredibly powerful. He can turn himself invisible fast enough,  and with his impressive speed and flight, Itachi wouldn't know which  way he ducked off in.



Muu does not turn invisible instantly. Itachi will have a chance to see him fade and react accordingly (and this is still assuming Sharingan can't see Muu, which I find incredulous).



> Why would Amaterasu stop Jinton? It destroys  molecules, it would erase Amaterasu from existence. Even if you're right  and Amaterasu is super magical, then it doesn't really matter since Muu  can use more Jinton than Itachi can use Amaterasu.



The problem is that Itachi only needs one sustained Amaterasu and Muu is toast along with his Jinton.



> My mistake,  although thinking about it, it's hard to call a winner. Onoki can stay  out of Itachi's range and bomb him, make clones to bomb him even more,  and also create Golems to keep Itachi busy on the ground. Itachi could  only really win if: A. he can manage to keep Onoki nearby somehow, or B.  if Itachi can somehow defend until Onoki runs out of chakra. It'll be a  hard fight for both of them.



Oonoki has not shown the ability to use Jinton with his clones. That might be too demanding on his chakra.

I also don't see stone golems giving Itachi any trouble, given how easily Madara shattered them.



> Trollkage has to pretty much let  Itachi use genjutsu on him, Susanoo has a limited range and takes a few  moments to fully form itself, Amaterasu is your best argument here but  it's hard to say what would happen for sure, first of all Amaterasu  takes a moment itself to use and we don't know what Trollkage's speed  is, and Trollkage could have a means to expunge Amaterasu off of him  since he is made of water. He could even kick start Jouki Boy, this  could have any number of results, such as Trollkage and Jouki Boi  reforming Amaterasu-free or even Itachi being showed by burning water. I  could also say though that Itachi using MS right away is OOC. Trollkage  can seep into the ground with Hydrification and find a hiding place to  get the ball rolling. It would definitely be trolling if he seeped  inside Susanoo and summoned his clam, lol.
> Trollkage could also just  start the fight with Jouki Boi, then reform in a safe location and use  the mirage, giving Itachi a double-whammy.



You have Muu going invisible right away and people avoiding eye-contact right away and you are complaining about MS being OOC? Okay.

Overlooking that, Trollkage is not "made of water"; he can liquify his body, but it is still his body. Unless he uses the water source at the base of the bridge, he can't afford to lose large pieces of himself.

Also, Susano'o hardly takes any time to activate at all. Look at what happened to Danzou:

the same way

We have seen this kind of instantaneous partial activation of Susano'o many times. Sasuke's nearly grabbed Itachi with a sudden activation and then Itachi deflected it with his own. Itachi used this trick to protect Sasuke from Kabuto twice. He and Sasuke both used it to grab Kabuto.

Susano'o is a lot faster than anything the Mizukage can use, and despite its tell-tale warning sign, so is Amaterasu.



> Yagura only had a  small spotlight, but he was impressive. He was fast enough to use Water  Mirror before Naruto's attack reached him and also cover him in coral  which he couldn't break even with his super strength. Then there are his  tails which can be used for various purposes in battle, his protective  Bijuu shroud with his strength/speed enhancing abilities and Bijuudamas.



This is another one I don't really hold against you due to lack of info, but still. Amaterasu GG.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 11, 2013)

> Don't dis Hiruzen, and you probably shouldn't dis her either.  Skilled Mist, Melting Apparition, Hidden Mist, Water Dragon Missile,  Water Encampment Wall; she has a formidable combination. I just don't  know if she's a master of silent killing like Zabuza is to make full use  of Hidden Mist.



She has nothing to stop Itachi from activating Susano'o, grabbing her, and ripping her apart. Nothing.

She has nothing to stop Amaterasu.

And while she's avoiding Genjutsu, Itachi blitzes, beats her down with Taijutsu, and then Genjutsus her anyway.

She is grossly outmatched, and not just by Itachi. Virtually every Kage on this list would dismantle her with hardly any difficulty, even guys like Muu and Trollkage who I am 100% positive Itachi would stomp.



> KCM Naruto only gets a speed boost when using  Body Flicker,



Not true; Kyuubi chakra gives a passive speed boost, as we have seen every time Naruto entered a tailed state.

Look at Rock Lee. He can't even use Shunshin and he blitzed Madara thanks to that chakra. And Naruto has way more of it in KCM.



> and Sage Mode has super speed so that's not surprising.



Sage Naruto's speed was matched by Tendou's. Tendou's speed was matched by Kakashi's. I shouldn't need to tell you that Itachi could match Kakashi's speed.



> How long will it take Amaterasu to harm him, IF hit? Itachi may be able  to defend but he should eventually get overwhelmed by 3rd Raikage's  speed if he doesn't fall back quick enough. And 3rd Raikage uses a  kumite through Susanoo, as well as use black lightning to fill distance  gaps and keep Itachi on the defensive.



I don't think the Raikage will be doing anything if he's on fire. He might manage a Nukite, but I bet it'll be awfully hard to achieve anything remotely resembling accuracy with black flames obscuring his LOS and making it hard for him to breathe. The Raikage just might asphyxiate before he actually burns to death...

If he got off easy and it only caught on one of his extremities (like what happened to A), then sure, I could buy your scenario. But I don't think the Raikage would hold out for very long before the flames killed him. A was fine because he chopped his arm off right away and had a medical ninja stop the bleeding.



> Itachi can plot hax  really fast, but he can't use that here. Ei is superbly fast and  superbly durable, he was even stopping Susanoo swords with his hand.



Clone feinting is a legitimate strategy that you don't seem to have any problem with when it benefits shinobi other than Itachi.



> One  of the crows have Koto Amatsukami, lol.



Itachi could not use Kotoamatsukami, or have the Itachitards used it on you?



> That's besides the point  though, the fact is that Itachi relies on summons too, whatever their  purpose is.



A lot of shinobi do. My point was, if the Genjutsu was the clam's Jutsu and not the Mizukage's, it wouldn't really make any difference so long as he can call on it whenever he wants.



> Sasuke didn't break anything, it was a genjutsu  battle that they mutually ended. Sasuke just knew it was a genjutsu, but  that Itachi was an illusion too.



If it was a Genjutsu "battle" then it wasn't just one Genjutsu, hence the "layer" terminology.

You can call it something different if you like, but you're just arguing semantics at that point.



> ...What? They were having a  genjutsu battle with each other, Itachi didn't change anything to look  like Sasuke was whatever, blah-blah.



Exactly.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> I clap my hands for Itachi in that regard, but the range was the  only  thing being discussed remember, not the strength of the genjutsu.



And I was talking about skill, not strength; controlling shinobi from such a range is evidence of Itachi's skill.

Madara and Obito obviously have more powerful Genjutsu than Itachi, but I wouldn't say they are more skilled.



> Itachi's genjutsu failed against Kurenai. That's what happened.



Actually, it was Kurenai's Genjutsu that failed against Kurenai; Itachi's Genjutsu to reverse her Genjutsu succeeded. 

And Kurenai didn't even break her own Genjutsu with Genjutsu skill; she bit her lip to induce pain.



> Itachi tried to put Naruto to sleep, Naruto resisted. It failed.



Naruto was about to choke himself out. It didn't fail.



> Tsukiyomi  is a super genjutsu, which Kakashi resisted.



Kakashi failed. Funny how you only say that for Itachi, though.



> Kakashi also  said it  wouldn't work twice and he later used a clone feint which  tricked Itachi  the second time.



Itachi never used it on Kakashi again.



> How can Itachi trust Sasuke to stop Tobi if he  can't break Tsukiyomi?



Obito couldn't use Tsukuyomi.

That said, I don't remember Itachi dumping the burden of assassinating "Madara" on Sasuke, either; I'm pretty sure he wanted to keep that p*d*p**** as far away from his brother as humanly possible.



> Sharingan can't stop Tsukiyomi either, as stated  by Itachi.



Sharingan and Uchiha blood can break Tsukuyomi with sufficient power/skill. I thought that was made pretty clear, considering we saw it pay off like that.



> The point is he broke it, and even if it wasn't Bee, Kishimoto wouldn't had let genjutsu beat Naruto either.



Weren't you the one saying plot has no bearing here?

Your double-standards have really gotten old. 



> But it failed, even if Itachi was a step away from him.



It took effect and successfully impeded Orochimaru enough for Itachi to capitalize. On its own? Yeah, it would not have been enough. But what you don't seem to realize is that Itachi is not restricted to using only Genjutsu; it is just one extremely valuable asset he can rely on in conjunction with his other abilities. 

That said, the fact that it is often insufficient by itself does not mean it isn't valuable, high-level, or that Itachi isn't abnormally skilled at it. How many other shinobi can even put Orochimaru in Genjutsu in the first place? Probably not many unless you look only at the Kage level.



> What's funny is that you're in the boat that thinks he can just end all of his fights with genjutsu.



You decided this for me. I said no such thing, ever.

Now, Genjutsu _and a kunai or some other finisher_ is a different story. And if we're talking about Tsukuyomi, that's endgame by itself for most shinobi. But these things can be avoided by simply not looking at Itachi's upper-body.

The trade-off is the inability to anticipate his Ninjutsu, though. As an alternative, that may be better, but the lesser of two evils is still evil.



> You  say genjutsu is hax as fuck and Itachi's better at it than everyone   else, which is what spurred me to say what I said with a clear   conscience.



Me telling the truth spurred you to lie and troll with a clear conscience? Okay.



> I'm stressing the fact that it's not actually haxxed as   fuck, it's just a vague and poorly defined ability, that's not rare,   which Kishimoto uses for shock value and plot. If it were anywhere near   as hax as you think it is, Kurenai and Shii would be Kages and would be   almost invincible. Hell, SM Naruto would had stood no chance against  MS  Sasuke by virtue of genjutsu alone, yet they were stated to be  equals.  Within the context of the manga, genjutsu isn't a broken  ability.



Yes it is broken; Genjutsu can do everything from create false images to control minds. And all it takes is eye-contact, or sound, or the wiggle of a finger.

What's vague or poorly defined about it? If you look in Itachi's eyes, he will make you see, feel, and hear whatever he wants. The only way to break it (if you don't have a Doujutsu and comparable skill/power) is to hurt yourself. That's pretty straightforward.

As for Kurenai and Shii, they are both Jounin, even though all they can use offensively is Genjutsu and physical combat.



> You  should have said "supposedly" stronger than Orochimaru. Orochimaru   never said Itachi was more powerful, he was saying that he couldn't  take  Itachi's body.



No, he said he couldn't take Itachi's body _because Itachi was stronger than him_.



> He tried before and failed, Itachi resisted it, he  was  too strong to take over. Sasuke was also too strong to take over,  but  was physically no match for armless Orochimaru.



Sasuke completely dominated armless Orochimaru, albeit due to his condition at the time.

Also, Itachi never resisted Fushi Tensei because Orochimaru never got the chance to use it on him. Itachi took his hand off and sent him packing before he could.



> With his arms back,   Orochimaru was deemed a threat to EMS Sasuke.



No he wasn't; he explicitly stated he didn't have the power to take Sasuke's body yet.



> We really don't know how   Itachi and Orochimaru compare, but Sasuke must be more powerful than   Itachi by now since we're near the end of the manga and Itachi was his   benchmark.



We know exactly how Itachi and Orochimaru compare:

the same way

Itachi is stronger.


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The "point," as it were, is that we have no idea how strong Izuna was or what he could do.
> 
> So Tobirama beating him tells us absolutely nothing.
> 
> It is unquantifiable.



The point i'm giving you totally valid points and your just straight up ignoring them time and time again. It really is impossible to discuss anything rationally with you when it comes to Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The point i'm giving you totally valid points and your just straight up ignoring them time and time again. It really is impossible to discuss anything rationally with you when it comes to Itachi.



He's better than I am though. Hi, Turrin! Long time no see!


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> However intelligent Itachi may be, he's not psychic. It is not possible for him to know the extent of Sasuke's skills over 3 years, to know all the Raitons and Katons that he had learned, his mastery of the Curse Seal, or even that he reversed the soul transfer and was actually able to use some of Orochimaru's abilities. Beyond that, it would had been impossible to determine what moves Sasuke would use in the fight and when.
> 
> And he actually _made_ it hit Sasuke when he clearly had the chance not to. There's no other way around it. Itachi really did roll the dice with Amaterasu.



I can respect this interpretation, but I think Itachi knew Sasuke fled to Orochimaru, and also knew about Orochimaru's jutsu. If he knew about the Eight Branches, then he likely knew about Oral Rebirth. 

As for everything else about the fight being planned, I think it's possible, particularly because Itachi was given hype about reading and predicting his opponent's actions in battle. Combined with _knowledge_, it'd be very potent.


*Spoiler*: __ 









I at least find that more likely than Itachi "rolling the dice with Amaterasu" given how much he cared about Sasuke and the fact that he intended to die against Sasuke, not kill him because of overestimation or  bad luck.

So in the case of Amaterasu, I think Itachi purposefully made it obvious that he was using the jutsu, giving Sasuke time to run, and then made sure to only hit Sasuke's wing so Sasuke could spit a new body out.

Zetsu even noted that Itachi was being careful "to not damage his eyes," so there's more evidence towards that, right?


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## Santoryu (Jul 11, 2013)

Itachi can beat any of these guys bar Hashirama and Minato. The battles against Tobirama/
Hiruzen are difficult to accurately gauge, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Itachi prevailed in battle.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 11, 2013)

I once assembled a really long list of the things about the fight that would be really strange if Itachi was not manipulating the fight to minimize risk to Sasuke.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I once assembled a really long list of the things about the fight that would be really strange if Itachi was not manipulating the fight to minimize risk to Sasuke.



I think that in the instance where Itachi's clone jumped out to throw weapons at Sasuke's face, if Itachi had curved those kunai through Sasuke's  like he did against Nagato's summons, then that would have been that.



But I love wanking Itachi because of his skill with the fundamentals.


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## Rocky (Jul 11, 2013)

I dunno about some who survived Deidara's explosive bombardment falling to "lol clone fient shuriken".


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I dunno about some who survived Deidara's explosive bombardment falling to "lol clone fient shuriken".



And this is why I'm at eternal odds with the forum. Itachi was described as superhuman in those fundamental skills, and yet nobody acknowledges them compared to flashy jutsu.

Itachi can beat people with basic genjutsu, weapons, clones, etc. because he's just that good. His individual talents are underestimated because he has so many. 

For example, if Mifune only had Itachi's shuriken feats, then he'd be worth more than he is now, because being able to throw shuriken that fast really is quite broken if you take a step back.

Hebi Sasuke, with his Sharingan, prepared a  to deflect Itachi's shuriken-throwing speed, and even then, Itachi was able to do other thigns at the same time while pressuring Sasuke.

And logically, that dictates that any character with reflexes less than Hebi Sasuke, or even equal to Hebi Sasuke but no special supplementary jutsu, are gonna' get hit by shuriken. 

... from sick Itachi, while Itachi makes a clone to get in their blindspot. This is why I wank Itachi, not Madara. Flashy jutsu are awesome, but the real lure is basic feats transcending flashy jutsu.​


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## Santoryu (Jul 11, 2013)

the kunai is grossly underestimated

kakashi held of v2 jins with kunai's 
kakashi used a kunai to take out obito 

itachi is good too though.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 11, 2013)

I actually don't think that kunai instance was one of them because the snake wrapped all the way around Sasuke so there were no blindspots. And curving the kunai must necessarily push back time until impact because they are traveling a longer distance to the target.


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## Rocky (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> And this is why I'm at eternal odds with the forum. Itachi was described as superhuman in those fundamental skills, and yet nobody acknowledges them compared to flashy jutsu.​




Itachi is very advanced in Shuriken-play, but Deidara is very advanced in blowing shit up. 

Nobody's overlooking Itachi's skill with a Kunai, but I doubt he can throw it in a way that Sasuke cannot defend, or dodge.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> the kunai is grossly underestimated
> 
> kakashi held of v2 jins with kunai's
> kakashi used a kunai to take out obito
> ...



There's a reason Kishimoto kept Itachi, Kakashi, and their kunai away from the Ten-Tails. Itachi would blind it in between panels, and Kakashi would finish it off. It'd be too anticlimactic.​


Rocky said:


> Itachi is very advanced in Shuriken-play, but Deidara is very advanced in blowing shit up.
> 
> Nobody's overlooking Itachi's skill with a Kunai, but I doubt he can throw it in a way that Sasuke cannot defend, or dodge.



Throwing it from a blindspot is not something that can be defended or dodged, as they aren't seen. They blindside the target. That's what Kabuto said when commenting on Itachi's kunai skill.​


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## Santoryu (Jul 11, 2013)

Okay, where are those people who were adamant that Kishi would never let Kakashi defeat Obito in combat in the manga? :lbl

Where are the people that claimed Tobirama is significantly superior to Kakashi in terms of portrayal?
>Kakashi spanks Akatasuki's leader
>Tobirama is spanked by Akatasuki's leader 
*Spoiler*: __ 



I know it's not over






all i hear is pis/pnj excuses but i'd like a medal for my correct predictions


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## Nikushimi (Jul 11, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The point i'm giving you totally valid points and your just straight up ignoring them time and time again. It really is impossible to discuss anything rationally with you when it comes to Itachi.



Valid as they may be, there is a difference between validity and factuality.

While you may raise a lot of valid points, you are ultimately unable to quantify Izuna (and, by extension, Tobirama).

There are definitely some things we can infer from Tobirama beating Izuna, such as Genjutsu probably not being that big a deal for him, but anything beyond that is pretty dubious without knowing what Izuna's MS could do.

It might be worth pointing out that Izuna could apparently use Tsukuyomi, since Madara intended to use that for the Moon's Eye Plan after obtaining Izuna's eyes, but that neglects to account for Amaterasu and Susano'o.

And even that is not the limit of what Itachi can do. Aside from that, it is ultimately fallacious to equate shinobi simply because they possess the same abilities, as there are other important considerations like power, skill, and intelligence that can make a big difference.

Izuna may have been able to use literally every Jutsu in Itachi's arsenal and there is still no guarantee he would be as strong.


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## ? (Jul 11, 2013)

Beats all except Hashirama and Minato.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 11, 2013)

Does having someone's eyes give you access to their jutsu in the case of Uchiha to Uchiha eye exchange? I know I made the point about Sasuke having Kagutsuchi instead of Tsukuyomi, but his Susano'o isn't the same as Itachi's either since he doesn't have the special weapons.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Does having someone's eyes give you access to their jutsu in the case of Uchiha to Uchiha eye exchange? I know I made the point about Sasuke having Kagutsuchi instead of Tsukuyomi, but his Susano'o isn't the same as Itachi's either since he doesn't have the special weapons.



It's possible Sasuke hasn't revealed the extent of his new eyes. I think it makes sense for him to have the capacity to use both Tsukuyomi and the special items, as well as a much larger Susano'o. 

Also, is the special jutsu of the Eternal Mangekyō Perfect Susano'o, or something else? Kishimoto skipped over the development of the Eternal Mangekyō, and Madara's other Mangekyō jutsu...​


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## Santoryu (Jul 11, 2013)

Seriously though, Itachi has a fluid mastery over the fundamentals; even if we exclude his Sharingan he's a well balanced ninja; I canlt think of too many characters who are proficient in every area; Kakashi is another one of the manga's great prodigies, using something that isn't part of his genetic makeup to such an extent that the original user of his eye is unable to better the Copy Ninja in combat. Take a bow son, take a bow.

Okay. Hebi Sasuke was no near Itachi's level during that fight, read what Obito says after the battle concluded.


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## Rocky (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Throwing it from a blindspot is not something that can be defended or dodged, as they aren't seen. They blindside the target. That's what Kabuto said when commenting on Itachi's kunai skill.​




But Sasuke saw the Kuani leave Itachi's hand, no? No matter how he altered it's trajectory, Sasuke knew to defend.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> But Sasuke saw the Kuani leave Itachi's hand, no? No matter how he altered it's trajectory, Sasuke knew to defend.



I was referring to the bunshin, as it conspicuously came out of Sasuke's blindspot to throw kunai, which Sasuke blocked with a transformation (because Itachi was holding him Kakashi-style.)

Had the clone thrown the kunai from Sasuke's blindspot instead of revealing itself to do so, then Sasuke would never have used the transformation to defend, because he'd be caught unaware.

But just in general, think about all the ninja with slower reflexes than Hebi Sasuke w/ the Sharingan. They're barely going to react to Itachi whipping shuriken at them, if at all.

Even someone like Killer Bee used a partial transformation instead of dodging, presumably because there wasn't time. It otherwise doesn't make sense to block pointy metal when he still felt pain. 

And against both Hebi Sasuke and Bee, Itachi was simultaneously doing other actions while throwing shuriken at those speeds (because of his fast hands.) He was casting genjutsu or clones.

So ninja with reflexes less than Sharingan Sasuke or Killer Bee are going to be in serious trouble from that ability, even if they could evade Deidara's bombs with shunshin.

It's because Deidara's _execution_ is much slower and also much more conspicuous than Itachi's style. His bombs aren't going to catch ninja unaware as easily as Itachi's skills would.​


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 11, 2013)

And like I said, Sasuke defended his entire body by wrapping the snake around it. And if Itachi tried to target the hardest place to defend, that would mean the kunais have to travel a greater distance. Furthermore, curving the kunai takes them off a straight path, which would mean they travel a greater distance. That kind of shruiken jutsu is effective, but it sacrifices speed for trickery. Which isn't much use in a straight forward battle with someone with Sasuke's level of skill.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> And like I said, Sasuke defended his entire body by wrapping the snake around it. And if Itachi tried to target the hardest place to defend, that would mean the kunais have to travel a greater distance. Furthermore, curving the kunai takes them off a straight path, which would mean they travel a greater distance. That kind of shruiken jutsu is effective, but it sacrifices speed for trickery. Which isn't much use in a straight forward battle with someone with Sasuke's level of skill.



I think Itachi curved the kunai in such a way specifically to get around the much more ecompassing angles of Rinnegan shared vision, particularly as he was aiming for the eyes themselves. 

In Sasuke's case, if the clone was in Sasuke's blindspot, then throwing them straight at the back of his head would be just as fast and just as effective, as Sasuke doesn't have shared vision...

Besides, Sasuke had planned to spam kuchiyose just to keep up with Itachi's throwing speed, and Sasuke was already one of the fastest and best with throwing weapons in the manga. 

Also, I thought I saw you arguing about Itachi's layered genjutsu against Sasuke being able to give him a lethal opening? Why would genjutsu be able to do so and not Itachi's other hyped, basic talent?​


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 11, 2013)

But there was no way for the kunai to strike from a blindspot. They could be thrown from a blindspot, but the moment they emerged from behind Itachi, they would have to travel the distance on a curve (which increases the distance, and hence pushes back time until impact) to hit Sasuke. And Sasuke isn't blind; he would see the kunai once they emerged just like he saw the Karasu Bunshin when it emerged. If he reacted in time to wrap a snake all the way around his body before the kunai hit, then he even more easily could have just had a cursed seal wing emerge. The situation was not equivalent to what we saw with Nagato, And one of the biggest differences is that what Itachi is targeting is not a slow moving giant summon, but Sasuke.


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## Rocky (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I was referring to the bunshin, as it conspicuously came out of Sasuke's blindspot to throw kunai, which Sasuke blocked with a transformation (because Itachi was holding him Kakashi-style.)
> 
> Had the clone thrown the kunai from Sasuke's blindspot instead of revealing itself to do so, then Sasuke would never have used the transformation to defend, because he'd be caught unaware.




It would've been anticlimactic. I do see what you mean, and typically, that's what clone users do. Base Naruto plowed Kakuzu with a point blank Rasenshurkien by striking from a blindspot. I tend to shy away from thinking a fight would end like that, but you are right. The reason Itachi came out of that hinding spot is the same reason Naruto doesn't implode the skull of his opponents with Rasengan after leaving their vision with a D-Rank Jutsu.



> But just in general, think about all the ninja with slower reflexes than Hebi Sasuke w/ the Sharingan. They're barely going to react to Itachi whipping shuriken at them, if at all.




Most Shinobi have some sort of Ninjutsu they could use to push Shuriken away. Let's look at the Gokage, a group of Mid-Tier Shinobi.

Raikage activates the Raition cloak and tanks, Kazekage blocks with sand, Mizukage water walls, Tsuchikage erects a rock golem, and Hokage tanks and heals.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> But there was no way for the kunai to strike from a blindspot. They could be thrown from a blindspot, but the moment they emerged from behind Itachi, they would have to travel the distance on a curve (which increases the distance, and hence pushes back time until impact) to hit Sasuke. And Sasuke isn't blind; he would see the kunai once they emerged just like he saw the Karasu Bunshin when it emerged. If he reacted in time to wrap a snake all the way around his body before the kunai hit, then he even more easily could have just had a cursed seal wing emerge. The situation was not equivalent to what we saw with Nagato, And one of the biggest differences is that what Itachi is targeting is not a slow moving giant summon, but Sasuke.



When the kunai emerge? Sasuke was being held down by Itachi's clone, remember? Itachi literally jumped out directly in front of Sasuke. He purposefully emerged so he could be blocked.

And the summons didn't fail to react because they were slow, but because they never saw the attacks coming. Nagato, Bee, Naruto, nobody saw it. That's the sole benefit of striking from a blindspot.

You said the curving kunai sacrifices speed for trickery, but curving isn't necessary if throwing from the blindspot of an opponent that lacks ubiquitous vision like the Rinnegan or Byakugan.

Neji used a special method to protect his blindspot by extending his chakra out into a field to detect things approaching through it. Sasuke never showed such an inclination.​


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Raikage activates the Raition cloak and tanks



Yes, the cloak protects him.​


Rocky said:


> Kazekage blocks with sand



Only if he's aware of the attack beforehand. His defense is not automatic, so if he is unaware of kunai travelling through his blindspot (think Neji and Kidōmaru) then he will not block.​


Rocky said:


> Mizukage water walls



I don't even think she's fast enough to use a jutsu before the shuriken land. Itachi's hand speed outpaces her by far, and like Gaara, she needs to be aware of the kunai coming at her.​


Rocky said:


> Tsuchikage erects a rock golem



He's in the same boat as Gaara.​


Rocky said:


> and Hokage tanks and heals.



Unless a kunai in the brain knocks her unconscious. Natural cell regeneration would not push a kunai out by itself, and until the kunai was pulled out, the regeneration would not occur.​


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## Rocky (Jul 11, 2013)

> Only if he's aware of the attack beforehand (not a blindspot.) His defense is not automatic, so if he is unaware of kunai travelling through his blindspot (think Neji and Kidōmaru) then he will not block.​




I could've sworn his defense was automatic, but nevertheless, that's not what I was arguing. It's if Itachi was rapid-firing Shuriken at them in the open, not from a blindspot.



> Only if she's aware of the attack beforehand (not a blindspot.)​




^



> Only if he's aware of the attack beforehand (not a blindspot.)​




^^



> Unless a kunai in the brain stops her. Natural cell regeneration would not push a kunai out by itself, and until the kunai was pulled out, the regeneration would not occur. So if Tsunade's unconscious, she stays that way.​




She survived being "ripped to shreds" by that transfer technique before she activated her regeneration, so being knocked out by a Kunai doesn't seem likely.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I could've sworn his defense was automatic, but nevertheless, that's not what I was arguing. It's if Itachi was rapid-firing Shuriken at them in the open, not from a blindspot.



I could be wrong, but I thought it was said that Shukaku's awareness was providing the automatic defense, so upon having the beast extracted, Gaara does so manually. 

If this is just Itachi rapid-firing, then I'd consider him to be around Mifune. So I'd argue that he could potentially beat Tsunade and Mei with speed and a short staring distance. Not the others.​


Rocky said:


> She survived being "ripped to shreds" by that transfer technique before she activated her regeneration, so being knocked out by a Kunai doesn't seem likely.



Until I see her tank a kunai to the brain, or especially one of the big-ass shuriken Itachi used on Bee, which imo could definitely decapitate, then I'm not going to grant it to Tsunade.​


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## Rocky (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I could be wrong, but I thought it was said that Shukaku was providing the automatic defense, so upon having the beast extracted, Gaara does so manually.​





There hasn't really been a change in his fighting style to really know that his auto-defense is gone. Also, I though it was attributed to his mother, not the 1-Tails?




> Until I see her tank a kunai to the brain, or especially one of the big-ass shuriken Itachi used Bee, then I'm not going to grant it to Tsunade. Head-gouging is serious business.​




Fair enough, but consider this: Tsunade continued to smack around Susano'o clones with gigantic swords stuck in her mid-section. Wounds like that should have paralyzed her immediately, as those blades severed her spine, yet she appeared unaffected.​


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> There hasn't really been a change in his fighting style to really know that his auto-defense is gone. Also, I though it was attributed to his mother, not the 1-Tails?



If his mother's spirit is providing the automatic awareness and sand-control, then Gaara's well-covered. It makes more sense to me if Shukaku had been doing so, but you know, Kishimoto.​


Rocky said:


> Fair enough, but consider this: Tsunade continued to smack around Susano'o clones with gigantic swords stuck in her mid-section. Wounds like that should have paralyzed her immediately, as those blades severed her spine, yet she appeared unaffected.



Yes, that's definitely a strong point, but still not the same level as her being stabbed through the face imo. I acknowledge that it's completely possible though.​


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## Rocky (Jul 11, 2013)

> Yes, that's definitely a strong, but still not the same as her being stabbed through the face imo. I acknowledge that it's completely possible, but I'm just not seeing it.​




What problems would you expect Tsunade to face of she was hit in the head with a Kunai?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What problems would you expect Tsunade to face of she was hit in the head with a Kunai?



What can I say? I think kunai in the forehead is ickier, worse.



I don't think she'd be fine. Especially since Itachi has some bigger tools:


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## Sans (Jul 11, 2013)

Kirabi had to use partial transformations to block both Hiraishin and Itachi's shurikenjutsu. Clearly, they are in the same tier of speed.

*Edit:* The shurikenjutsu is actually superior if we factor in Kirabi's growth as a shinobi over time.


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## Rocky (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Which do you think is worse?




I can't say. Having your spine bisected and having a sharp metal knife lodged into your skull are both pretty bad.


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## Sans (Jul 11, 2013)

Itachi's Hiraishin level shurikenjutsu means it's going to be more like five hundred kunai in her head though.


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Valid as they may be, there is a difference between validity and factuality.
> 
> While you may raise a lot of valid points, you are ultimately unable to quantify Izuna (and, by extension, Tobirama).
> 
> ...


The bold is quantifying the feat in certain aspects. Beyond that like I said we can also quantify another aspect of the feat, that being that it's impressive Tobirama took down a MS users no matter how powerful compared to other MS users that person is, because it speaks towards general level to some degree. It's the same reason why we consider Itachi beating Orochimaru in the flashback a good feat regardless of the fact that we don't know how strong Orochimaru was back then compared to Part I or Part II. I mean come on I have heard you Itachi-fans for years wank the shit out of feats of Itachi which are not completely quantifiable (beating Orochi, beating Shisui before it was found it was not true -- same with Uchiha clan before that wasn't totally found out to be true, beating those 3 Uchiha police force members, & even beating flashback Deidara). 

Though again of course we can't say Tobirama beating Izuna means he could beat Itachi, but that is something I agreed with from the get go.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Itachi's Hiraishin level shurikenjutsu means it's going to be more like five hundred kunai in her head though.



It's not Hiraishin level, but it might as well be as far as Tsunade's concerned.


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## Sans (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It's not Hiraishin level, but it might as well be as far as Tsunade's concerned.



I notice you could't refute my arguments.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> I notice you could't refute my arguments.



Why would I do that?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 11, 2013)

The problem is that Tsunade's been hyped to be unkillable. I completely hands down appreciate that it seems ridiculous for her to have a kunai lodged in her brain, and for her to survive to tell the tale, but it seems _equally_ as ridiculous for her spine to be severed on several occasions, and for her to continue fighting. Being vertically bisected and left for several hours to bleed out seems just as wtfish, as does travelling at light speed and coming out with nothing but a few cuts.

If those feats are achievable, then whose to say her brain being stabbed should be any different? Yes, the brain is a more vital organ that should kill her instantly, but having a spine or abdomen severed for any prolonged period of time should kill her too . . but it didn't. Tsunade pulling the kunai out, regenerating and making Itachi jaw-drop is something we need to readily accept as a possibility.​​


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The problem is that Tsunade's been hyped to be unkillable. I completely hands down appreciate that it seems ridiculous for her to have a kunai lodged in her brain, and for her to survive to tell the tale, but it seems _equally_ as ridiculous for her spine to be severed on several occasions, and for her to continue fighting. Being vertically bisected and left for several hours to bleed out seems just as wtfish, as does travelling at light speed and coming out with nothing but a few cuts.
> 
> If those feats are achievable, then whose to say her brain being stabbed should be any different? Yes, the brain is a more vital organ that should kill her instantly, but having a spine or abdomen severed for any prolonged period of time should kill her too . . but it didn't. Tsunade pulling the kunai out, regenerating and making Itachi jaw-drop is something we need to readily accept as a possibility.​​



Yeah, I think you're being completely reasonable. I just don't _quite_ find the two situations to be _equally_ ridiculous. I feel like if a person were to get run through like that, they might be conscious for a bit. 

And with kunai in the brain, it's less likely. However, I definitely acknowledge the hype and the possibility. On the other hand, I think it's fair to acknowledge the contrary possibility.

**​


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## ZE (Jul 11, 2013)

The kages would need rinnegan's chakra rods to counter amateratsu. So they get obliterated. Not counting SSJ2 Minato of course. As for Hashirama, I know I know. The dude is super strong and all, but what has he shown that can counter amateratsu? Does he have chakra rods? No. 

Shit, I forgot he's a bushin spammer. Well, in that case you'd have to restrict that to make it more interesting. So in short, if there's no restrictions on the kages, Itachi would beat them all save for Minato and Hashirama. Muu is a toss up.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Yeah, I think you're being completely reasonable. I just don't _quite_ find the two situations to be _equally_ ridiculous. I feel like if a person were to get run through like that, they might be conscious for a bit.
> 
> And with kunai in the brain, it's less likely. However, I definitely acknowledge the hype and the possibility. On the other hand, I think it's fair to acknowledge the contrary possibility.
> 
> **​



We'll never know for sure until she actually takes a blow to the head, I just don't think she ever will. Kage levels getting stabbed in the head or decapitated is a rare thing in this manga, especially whenever said Kage level excels in close range combat. It may always just be up for interpretation, though since she's been continually hyped to be unkillable, I'll probably always lean towards her chances of her survivial rather than the opposite.​​


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> We'll never know for sure until she actually takes a blow to the head, I just don't think she ever will. Kage levels getting stabbed in the head or decapitated is a rare thing in this manga, especially whenever said Kage level excels in close range combat. It may always just be up for interpretation, though since she's been continually hyped to be unkillable, I'll probably always lean towards her chances of her survivial rather than the opposite.​​



Yesh, but I don't think it would kill her, only incapacitate her. If the kunai were pulled out while the jutsu was active, then the injured area would heal and she'd regain function.

So I'm not _technically_ going against the hype. ​


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## Veracity (Jul 11, 2013)

People that think Tsunade would get killed by a kunai to the brain are just absolutely ridiculous. Like Godaime surname said, she's easily a Kage level ninja(who excel at close range combat), but to add on to this she's fucking Tsunade. Shes in the top tier category for taijustu. She has honed her taijustu skills to the absolute peak. She's not just gonna get decapitated or even have a kunai lodged in her brain. When does that ever happen to a Kage? To make matters worse, that's literally the only way people see her losing. So instead of actually using reasoning, & actually coming up with a sound argument, people just say" He just decapitates her." Or " he hits her with a kunai to the brain. It's literally the dumbest argument I have ever seen. Unless this Ninja is Minato,Naruto,Obito, Hashirama, or Madara, they are not killing her with a fucking Kunai.

I'm gonna start saying " well he just blitzes Minato. Or well he just overpowers the 3rd Raikage, since people like to deprive Tsunade of her best skills.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 11, 2013)

If Tsunade has Byakugo active while getting stabbed in the brain, she laughs it off.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 11, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> People that think Tsunade would get killed by a kunai to the brain are just absolutely ridiculous.



"Kunai to the brain" sounds serious enough, no?


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## Frawstbite (Jul 11, 2013)

Any ninja has the ability to lose their head provided the situation is right. That's like me saying, [insert name] is not going to lose a leg because how often does that ever happen in this manga?  If it is within someone's power to set up a maneuver to take someone's head then it is _possible_ by all means, regardless of who it is. Kage level has _nothing to do with it_.

If Asura didn't pop up to save Deva, Deva's head would have been obliterated, as it is exactly what Kakashi was aiming for, and the radius of lightning blade is head sized a least. Zabuza with the strength of his _neck_ took a man's head. Asuma took Hidan's head. It's not a thing of strength, Zabuza's instance tell us that. It's a thing of tactics.

The only reason why it's so rare is because relevant characters are relevant, and the immortal ones have the luxury of showing us how severe attacks can be. We've seen "kage level" edo zombies lose arms, we've seen them get kicked in half, sliced in half, we've seen Obito crush a man's skull by merely closing his hand. That doesn't mean the relevant characters have more skill, that's just how it is written. As long as the reasoning behind the tactic is right, then it can be done.



Likes boss said:


> To make matters worse, that's literally the only way people see her losing.



This is false. She's in many threads losing in many other ways. I can name many from multiple characters.


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## Veracity (Jul 11, 2013)

Frawstbite said:


> Any ninja has the ability to lose their head provided the situation is right. That's like me saying, [insert name] is not going to lose a leg because how often does that ever happen in this manga?  If it is within someone's power to set up a maneuver to take someone's head then it is _possible_ by all means, regardless of who it is. Kage level has _nothing to do with it_.
> 
> If Asura didn't pop up to save Deva, Deva's head would have been obliterated, as it is exactly what Kakashi was aiming for, and the radius of lightning blade is head sized a least. Zabuza with the strength of his _neck_ took a man's head. Asuma took Hidan's head. It's not a thing of strength, Zabuza's instance tell us that. It's a thing of tactics.
> 
> ...


Lol give me examples right now. Kunai to the brain, decapitation, BjiuuDama, FRS, or Genjustu come to mind. & the funny part are those literally are the only ways to kill her( with the first two being most likely false), other then outlasting her Miotic regen( which is laughable in a battle)

So go ahead, enlighten me with these examples.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 11, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The bold is quantifying the feat in certain aspects.



It isn't quantifying it at all because it doesn't actually tell us about Izuna's capabilities relative to anybody else.



> Beyond that like I said we can also quantify another aspect of the feat, that being that it's impressive Tobirama took down a MS users no matter how powerful compared to other MS users that person is, because it speaks towards general level to some degree.



Again, this still doesn't quantify anything because we have no idea how strong Izuna was; he could still be weaker than Itachi and Tobirama could still end up getting owned by Itachi.



> It's the same reason why we consider Itachi beating Orochimaru in the flashback a good feat regardless of the fact that we don't know how strong Orochimaru was back then compared to Part I or Part II.



That's actually because we know Orochimaru's capabilities and there are some things we can actually prove about his power at that time (such as the fact that he definitely had Fushi Tensei).



> I mean come on I have heard you Itachi-fans for years wank the shit out of feats of Itachi which are not completely quantifiable (beating Orochi, beating Shisui before it was found it was not true -- same with Uchiha clan before that wasn't totally found out to be true, beating those 3 Uchiha police force members, & even beating flashback Deidara).



Beating flashback Deidara is easily quantifiable since it was basically C1 Deidara indoors (probably with inferior physical stats, though it's not like the older Deidara would ever stack up to Itachi in that regard).

Orochimaru is not unquantifiable, either; besides seeing how Itachi beat him (twice), we also have confirmation from Oro himself that Itachi is stronger.

People may have jumped the gun in the past, but that doesn't make those people right.  Case in point: Shisui volunteered himself for death.

As for the Uchiha police, they may be unquantifiable, but they had three-tomoe Sharingan and were hyped in the second databook as the clan's strongest squad (serving directly under Fugaku). Like Izuna, we know they are strong; we just don't know how strong or what they can do, which makes them worthless for comparison with shinobi that pose a serious threat to Itachi.



> Though again of course we can't say Tobirama beating Izuna means he could beat Itachi, but that is something I agreed with from the get go.



Which brings us full-circle to the fact that Tobirama beating Izuna doesn't tell us anything about what he can do to Itachi.


----------



## Frawstbite (Jul 11, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Lol give me examples right now. Kunai to the brain, decapitation, BjiuuDama, FRS, or Genjustu come to mind. & the funny part are those literally are the only ways to kill her( with the first two being most likely false), other then outlasting her Miotic regen( which is laughable in a battle)
> 
> So go ahead, enlighten me with these examples.



Dust release. Destroys on a molecular level. Sasuke disappearing was supposed to happen. You can't heal form an attack that more or less wipes you from existence, obviously.

FRS isn't false, it attacks the chakra circulatory system, which cannot be repaired by any form of medical ninjutsu, which is why Naruto was asked to stop using it. The complete version has the ability to tear an enemy into nothingness, in addition to destroying their chakra network. No chakra network, no healing. 

Hell Stab. In an instant it explodes rocks much thicker than the third Raikage and  much larger than the entire size of Tsunade's upper body If you want go back two pages to see how thick the rocks are, you can see that they are much wider than her. Tearing through bone and flesh is nothing compared to that. It's a chest shot, abdomen shot, heart shot, and head shot all in one attack. Raikiri to the head is not necessary here. The AOE is so strong that a blow to the chest destroys the upper and lower body entirely, with the exception of the legs of course. Third Raikage is a big man, so anything smaller would suffer worse.

Amaterasu, burns for for much longer than her chakra will ever allow. It will literally sap it until she is gone. She doesn't have chakra for 7 days. In any fight where she is hit, her entire body is severely crippled in addition to  her sight with black flames clouding her entire body. The user follows up however they like, as their advantage is now massive in every way imaginable.

Kirin is self explanatory, I believe. It casually shatters terrain, so if it hits a person, then it's game over. Itachi needed susanoo to _barely survive_. What destroys the entire surrounding area in 1/1000 of a second will completely overrule a healing ability, it's far too fast.

A swipe of Samehada can disable her technique, or severely cripple it. Whatever the user follows up with is up to them, of course. It can take biiju level chakra in one swipe. It is within the user's power to stop her technique with the sword.

Kamui is a candidate for obvious reasons. With the precision to warp a nail, Kakashi could take her head. Whether or not she can avoid kamui (lol) is not the point. It absolutely can take her head.

C4, will attack from the inside out. Countless micro bombs will make the target disintegrate. Tsunade does not heal that fast, as we've seen wounds closing on panel. 

Land-mine punch also caused any enemy to blow up, leaving no remains. This is something that you can't heal from for obvious reasons. I don't believe that chump can hit her with it, but again, not the point.

These techniques, with the exception of land mine punch, are generally the ones people speak of. And they are generally the ones that people can agree can kill her. It's been discussed countless times, and this is what it more or less comes down to. 

Anyway, this isn't a Tsunade thread, and I don't want to get this thread locked so If you want to keep going I can drop my next reply on your page if you want. Just let me know.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> When the kunai emerge? Sasuke was being held down by Itachi's clone, remember? Itachi literally jumped out directly in front of Sasuke. He purposefully emerged so he could be blocked.
> 
> And the summons didn't fail to react because they were slow, but because they never saw the attacks coming. Nagato, Bee, Naruto, nobody saw it. That's the sole benefit of striking from a blindspot.
> 
> ...



Uh, what are you talking about. There was no way for Itachi to have the kunai hit Sasuke from outside his field of vision without first passing through his field of vision. Itachi and his Bunshin were both in front of Sasuke. The kunai could be thrown from behind Itachi but then they would have to curve around Itachi and then back inwards towards Sasuke, which is a slower attack.


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It isn't quantifying it at all because it doesn't actually tell us about Izuna's capabilities relative to anybody else.


Really now a Top Uchiha with MS and we can't safely conclude he's more capable than most Genjutsu users in this manga? I strongly disagree.



> Again, this still doesn't quantify anything because we have no idea how strong Izuna was; he could still be weaker than Itachi and Tobirama could still end up getting owned by Itachi.


Niku why can't you get off the idea of relating it to Itachi specifically and look at in terms of the Narutoverse. If Kishi is having Tobirama beat a MS Uchiha well before he even took the mantel of Second Hokage that shows he's up their strength, which is all i'm saying.



> That's actually because we know Orochimaru's capabilities and there are some things we can actually prove about his power at that time (such as the fact that he definitely had Fushi Tensei).


We don't know Orochimaru's exact power and as for proving somethings he had, we'll we can do that in the case of Izuna as well. Such as the basic Sharingan and MS traites.



> Beating flashback Deidara is easily quantifiable since it was basically C1 Deidara indoors (probably with inferior physical stats, though it's not like the older Deidara would ever stack up to Itachi in that regard).


It's funny because I have always seen Itach-fans run around saying that feat is worth more than that. And actually though we can probably prove he didn't have C3, Genjutsu Counter-Eye, or C4, we can't prove all he had was C1, just like one can't prove all Izuna had were the basic traites of MS/Sharingan. So again it's the same deal.




> Orochimaru is not unquantifiable, either; besides seeing how Itachi beat him (twice), we also have confirmation from Oro himself that Itachi is stronger.


I fail to see what confirmation from Orochimaru proves as it does not indicate the strength of Orochimaru in the flashback. Sure we know Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru (at least up until his recent improvements), but that's not the issue i'm speaking towards.



> People may have jumped the gun in the past, but that doesn't make those people right.  Case in point: Shisui volunteered himself for death.


Of course it doesn't which is why I'm not suggesting anything as extreme as the Itachi-fans ever did, such the assertions that Itachi could own current Deidara as badly as he did in the flaashback or own any Sannin Part I or Part II with Three Tome Sharingan + Kuni in a single panel. Though I do find it funny how Itachi-fans change their tune so quickly when the shoe is on the other foot.

Again all i'm saying is Kishi having Tobirama beat a MS Uchiha well before he even took the mantel of Second Hokage that shows he's up their strength



> As for the Uchiha police, they may be unquantifiable, but they had three-tomoe Sharingan and were hyped in the second databook as the clan's strongest squad (serving directly under Fugaku). Like Izuna, we know they are strong; we just don't know how strong or what they can do, which makes them worthless for comparison with shinobi that pose a serious threat to Itachi.


Yes, but is it still not a good feat considering Itachi's age at the time and is it not quantifiable as a good feat than? 



> Which brings us full-circle to the fact that Tobirama beating Izuna doesn't tell us anything about what he can do to Itachi.


And it also brings us full circle to the fact that this was not my point to begin with and for the probably the fifth time in this thread I agree with you so far as that point. Where I disagree is that there are no aspects of this feat that are quantifiable.


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## Veracity (Jul 11, 2013)

Frawstbite said:


> Dust release. Destroys on a molecular level. Sasuke disappearing was supposed to happen. You can't heal form an attack that more or less wipes you from existence, obviously.
> 
> FRS isn't false, it attacks the chakra circulatory system, which cannot be repaired by any form of medical ninjutsu, which is why Naruto was asked to stop using it. The complete version has the ability to tear an enemy into nothingness, in addition to destroying their chakra network. No chakra network, no healing.
> 
> ...



FRS could kill her, I never said it couldn't. Dust Release would kill her, but people don't put her up against Onnoki for obvious reasons.. I also agree with Amaterasu and C4(debatable due to her possibly having the lighting affinity)

I don't agree with the others however. Itachi did not barely survive Kirin because if is power input, he barely survived it due to him barely activating Sussano. One swipe of Samehada isn't killing her. It wouldn't suck up ALL her chakra. Head shotting Tsunade isn't going to kill her. It's highly debatable and you have absolutely no proof. She already has survived injuries that would have instantly killed a regular ninja. The problem is Tsunade is NOT normal. Having a giant Sword impeded through all of her organs and through her spine would have instantly killed a human. Did it kill her? Having Kabuto cut the intercostal muscles around her lungs far exceeds the attempt of drowning, & would again kill the average ninja in seconds. Did it kill Tsunade? Didn't even immobilize her. 

Land mine punch? Uhh no. Her regen is far to quick for that, & her durability could help a lot in this circumstance. Unless a ninja has a Justu that instantly kills or warps someone into a different dimension, then Tsunade is most likely gonna survive.


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## Frawstbite (Jul 12, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> FRS could kill her, I never said it couldn't. Dust Release would kill her, but people don't put her up against Onnoki for obvious reasons.. I also agree with Amaterasu and C4(debatable due to her possibly having the lighting affinity)



I know, it was just a part of my list. Even if she had lightning affinity she'd need a chidori level of charge to get rid of the bombs. If you were to argue that she can run a technique with powerful and visible lightning that big through her body, then it is no longer body disturbance. You're giving her an entirely new technique that she'd simply never have. A big lightning charge defeats the very purpose of body disturbance.  She'd have to recognize the earth seal to be able to do it, and she'd have to run similar tests like Sasuke to be absolutely certain she could diffuse the bombs. She can't hurl lightning attacks ab the bombs she'd have to literally touch them. 

Simply put, there is no way she can test this theory. Whether or not she'd recognize the earth seal while Deidara is flying high is debatable. 



> I don't agree with the others however. Itachi did not barely survive Kirin because if is power input, he barely survived it due to him barely activating Sussano. One swipe of Samehada isn't killing her. It wouldn't suck up ALL her chakra. Head shotting Tsunade isn't going to kill her. It's highly debatable and you have absolutely no proof. She already has survived injuries that would have instantly killed a regular ninja. The problem is Tsunade is NOT normal. Having a giant Sword impeded through all of her organs and through her spine would have instantly killed a human. Did it kill her? Having Kabuto cut the intercostal muscles around her lungs far exceeds the attempt of drowning, & would again kill the average ninja in seconds. Did it kill Tsunade? Didn't even immobilize her.
> 
> Land mine punch? Uhh no. Her regen is far to quick for that, & her durability could help a lot in this circumstance. Unless a ninja has a Justu that instantly kills or warps someone into a different dimension, then Tsunade is most likely gonna survive.



Land mine punch It blew up an enemy _faster than C4_. We got the luxury of seeing Sasuke get torn apart. This was a one panel attack, that obliterated the enemy. _These are both explosion release techniques_, there is no reason to downplay that power. They are attacks of the same nature. Deidara's basic bombs have never been shown to have the power to completely wipe someone out of existence.

How does hell stab fail? We've seen her impaled, which left a hole in her body imagine her being impaled by a sword with a diameter larger than her entire upper body. There is no healing from that, it just takes your upper body. No more, no less. Her body doesn't have more resistance than a _two stage chakra infused earth wall_. Especially considering a basic chidori can rip through any flesh.

Samehada is a means to and end, with every swipe the duration of her technique gets that much weaker. Let's not forget that it can steal an entire biiju cloak in an instant. That's why I said you'd have to follow up. 

How does she heal from Kirin shredding her entire body in a fraction of a second? Or are her bones, skin, and organs more durable than thick stone? She heals this collosal damage in fraction of a second? Because that's all it needs to attack every part of her body and tear it apart, like the landmass around it.

I could bring up paper ocean, chibaku tensei, soul rip, ghost transformation, mind transfer, (fu/ao method) nano insects (torune), gentle fist, etc. for example, but those are obviously going to work.

So if those were "the only ways you see here losing" then you should dig a little deeper, perhaps. There are many ways.

Anyway to avoid going in circles you get the idea. These are not the only attacks and tactics that can bring her down and they are all debatable at least. If you wanted more ways, rather than Headshot/Beheading Genjutsu, Beastball, and FRS (from your initial post) you got them. Anyway, I'm tired of talking about Tsunade. If you still want to keep going, you can reply here and I'll get back to you in a PM later or something. It's time to get back on topic.


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## Saru (Jul 12, 2013)

Comments placed alongside quoted text (I can't be bothered to bold).



Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama - Itachi loses, probably in not as an embarrassingly short match as some people would imagine.
> Tobirama - Itachi wins with some difficulty (Tobirama did beat Izuna and fight Uchiha on a regular basis).
> Hiruzen (old) - Itachi wins with ease.
> Minato - Itachi wins if Tsukuyomi connects. Fair chance of winning.
> ...


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## The Prodigy (Jul 12, 2013)

From what I read from that quote Astral tagged...I agree on all except Gaara. It's not that I don't believe Itachi won't win against him. But it has been proven before that Gaara's defense can stop Ameterasu.

However, given the evidence. I sincerly agree that Gaara will be caught either by sharingan genjutsu or Tsukyomi since he does just seem to love looking Uchiha's in the eyes.


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## Saru (Jul 13, 2013)

I'm blushing. 

But the way I saw it, Gaara's sand blocked an Enton at the summit (which is logically slower), not Amaterasu. I think Gaara's sand and reaction time is fast (it stopped A's kick), but not quite on that level.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> UD, you really need to start multi-quoting like a normal person. It'll be easier for you, it'll be easier for me, and it'll be easier for everyone else.



I've done it before and I find it harder, actually, but I'll try it again. 



> There are people who think living Itachi could not replicate Edo Itachi's Taijutsu feats because of his illness. I felt that argument was a complete waste of time, so I just said "healthy Itachi blah blah blah."



I know you will disagree with me, but I didn't find his taijutsu as an Edo to be anything more impressive than what he accomplished while alive. He didn't even beat Naruto or Bee in taijutsu, in fact he backed off twice. 
I also don't think the disease effected his physical performance. Kimimaro was only being kept alive by life support, without that it was just his staunch will to serve Orochimaru one last time, and he would had beaten Gaara and Lee if not for running out of time. 
There's also my view of the origin of Itachi's illness...



> Is it possible to have an "opinion" that Itachi loses to every Kage except Mei, Tsunade, and Hiruzen? Is that not just objectively wrong?



Might be subjectively wrong, but not objectively. He could possibly lose, it's within their ability to beat him. Honestly, I do hate saying for sure who would win, if you ever notice I mostly come into the BD to defend points and come up with strategies using their abilities, not say that they would win or lose for sure. This is the first that I've done it in a long time, and it's not something I really like doing. You think he would win, I think either could win, and that's another reason why I hate debating guarantees, as I said before, anything could happen in a fight and people are torn between logic and personal feelings to determine a winner. 



> Personal opinion.
> 
> I actually don't fault you for this one; I was just saying how I felt about it.


Which kinda relates to some of the points I'm trying to make. 



> his first attack cracked it.


The context of that is "I couldn't take Itachi's body." Sasuke has the same feat, and he was far weaker than Itachi back then. 
Years later, an armless Orochimaru believed he could kill Itachi, not knowing that Itachi was dying. That right there disproves any feelings of overall inferiority you believe Orochimaru was expressing. 




> Satetsu showed way more power than Gaara's sand or the 4th's gold dust and Sakura was able to knock it away casually. It isn't doing anything to Susano'o in the limited quantities available here; Itachi's held off the Yamata no Jutsu, which was much more massive.
> 
> Also notice how Gaara wasn't able to do anything to Madara except remove him from Susano'o with Oonoki's help; none of this "overpowering Susano'o with tidal waves" crap you are convinced of for some strange reason.
> 
> For that matter, Sakura and Chiyo were both able to just dodge Satetsu and block its high-speed attacks with chakra shields that only cover from one direction.


Sakura was able to knock it away "casually"? Do you not remember Sakura having Tsunade's super-strength jutsu? The iron sand also had enough force of it's own to pierce solid rock, and I think Susanoo's defense is given too much hype. Honestly, it really hasn't been used to block too many attacks, perhaps the strongest ninjutsu it has taken and withstood was Naruto's Oodama Rasengan, but we weren't shown how much damage it did before Madara made Susanoo reach stage 2. 
Yamata no Orochi =/= Iron Sand, also Susanoo nostly blocked with Yata and then chopped off Yamata no Orochi's heads while they were pressed against the shield... wow, really makes me think about how rushed that was and how much better it could had been. 

That's all Gaara was trying to do. I also didn't say Gaara did that, although he could. 

Yes, most attacks can be dodged, and the chakra shield blocked small marble-sized iron sand. 



> Sure, but at the cost of being able to see Itachi execute Ninjutsu.


Not true. You don't have to look at his face to see him make handseals, and you don't even have to look at his face to notice him closing one of his eyes or bloody tears. 

Let's do an experiment. I'm going to post a picture of a person under a spoiler tag, and I want you to stare at their torso and tell me what expression their face is making. 


*Spoiler*: __ 





You're welcome, lol.




What you're using is peripheral vision. Check out this brief video as well, if you'll humor me here.


*Spoiler*: __ 



[youtube]vtXPV_u_YMA[/youtube]






> However, as Gaara pointed out and as you seem to forget, gold is an excellent conductor of heat. That's how Gaara was able to stop Jokey Boy with it. If the Kazekage encases himself in a gold room with no windows, he's going to be baked alive by Amaterasu.


Excellent point, that had slipped my mind. Although, there would be time to compensate for that in a match that may work against Itachi, that is if the 4th Kazekage expelled the outer layer of his golden room and used them to attack Itachi... then again, now that I think about it, I recall that heat weakens magnetic fields, so it may be possible that the outer layer of gold will just fall off since he may lose the ability to hold it up. 



> The ability doesn't work like that, or else Sakura and Chiyo would've been killed effortlessly. I'm pretty sure the weapons have to actually be brought into the range of the Kazekages' magnetic fields in order to be manipulated.


That does seem too powerful, doesn't it? So there must be a weakness to it (hint-hint, lol). That would lead to an interesting discussion though... what is the range of the magnetic field? The Kazekages could control their metal when pass the range of the opponents, does that mean the field extends that far or just that once it's magnetized that they have greater range?



> They possess vastly inferior abilities; there is NOTHING they bring to the table that Itachi cannot trump by an entire order of magnitude with his Mangekyou Sharingan. He has the better Genjutsu, the better Ninjutsu, he's faster, and he's got the benefit of a defensive Jutsu the Kazekage can't breach. What could Sasori or Orochimaru do to the Kazekage that Itachi couldn't? If they are even able to HIT the Kazekage at all, there goes your entire argument against Itachi's chances.


You're starting to fangasm, watch out. 
First of all, genjutsu is a wild card and their ninjutsu is better than Itachi's, perhaps barring MS but even then it's still sufficient to compete against MS. Unless you're superhumanly fast like Ei, speed is typically a minor factor against the higher-ups. And also, it's highly debatable how unbreachable Susanoo is to the Kazekages, though they do have other strategies they can employ a war of attrition to get Itachi to burn out his Susanoo since there's a time limit. 
You're kinda changing the topic, but I'll poke at that a little. I really have no idea how Sasori could had beaten the 3rd Kazekage unless he used his poison gas. Deidara also seems more powerful than Sasori, but the Word of God said that Sasori can beat both of them. It's hard to argue with that. 
As for Orochimaru, he has major tanking abilities, a surplus of tricky abilities, not to mention that we have no idea how powerful healthy Orochimaru is; aside from jutsus like Summoning, Edo Tensei, Great Breakthrough, and that fire jutsu he used to burn Team 7's scroll, 90% of what we know of his abilities comes from an armless Orochimaru that had to rely on his body mods to fight. 



> If Sasori could physically hit the Kazekage at all, what is stopping Itachi from blitzing and chopping his head off, let alone using a faster/stronger method of attack like Amaterasu or Susano'o?


The fact that you assume that Sasori is slow and/or that you think Itachi is faster than Ei makes me take this question less seriously. 
Amaterasu is a tough one, but it can be dealt with. Susanoo isn't winning the fight simply by merit of being Susanoo either. 



> Pretty sure suffocation would kill Orochimaru, as would being crushed to a pulp. Orochimaru also has limited stamina, so constantly healing himself with Oral Rebirth would render him exhausted in no time if the Kazekage could simply overwhelm him.


Suffocation, possibly; being crushed to a pulp won't work because Orochimaru has the ability to make his body malleable, he even tanked punches from Tsunade. Orochimaru has rapid healing thanks to his white snake abilities, and can reattach limbs. He only really needs Oral Rebirth for severe damage, like when KN4 obliterated his arm. 
But wait, this is really going off topic and I'm on time restraints and this conversation is getting WAY too extensive. 



> Also, the Kazekage being unable to kill him would be one thing, but that doesn't explain how Orochimaru could've KILLED the Kazekage. There is no way for Orochimaru to kill the Kazekage that Itachi could not do better. Kusanagi? Totsuka. Snakes? Susano'o. Genjutsu? Lol.


You're fangasming again, and Orochimaru has a ton of abilities that Itachi does not. 



> Gaara's sand was lightened by Oonoki to increase its speed. Without that, Madara- or Itachi -could just dodge.


I don't see how that helped Gaara, his sand was already incredibly fast and so far only two characters have managed to outspeed it: Gated Lee and Jokey Boy. Itachi should be able to keep pace, for a while at least, but he'll eventually get overwhelmed by it's swarming effect. 



> The Kazekage do not have the power to physically restrain Susano'o; all Gaara did was hold it down while he pulled Madara out of it. Madara's Susano'o broke through Gaara's sand AND Oonoki's stone at the same time.


And your proof of this is, what exactly? The 4th Kazekage's sand could hold down a Bijuu, Susanoo is _*NOT*_ as strong as a Bijuu. Gaara's sand was able to wrestle against 4th Kazekage's gold, and he noted how much stronger Gaara had gotten with it since he was younger. 

Madara's Susanoo didn't physically break through their barrier, his Yasaka Magatama pierced it, but not completely.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 13, 2013)

Cont..



> Muu does not turn invisible instantly. Itachi will have a chance  to see him fade and react accordingly (and this is still assuming  Sharingan can't see Muu, which I find incredulous).


Pretty fast  against Onoki, and he had no idea where Muu went despite knowing his  fighting style. 



> The problem is that Itachi only needs one sustained Amaterasu and Muu is toast along with his Jinton.


How so?



> Oonoki has not shown the ability to use Jinton with his clones. That might be too demanding on his chakra.
> 
> I also don't see stone golems giving Itachi any trouble, given how  easily Madara shattered them.


Hmm, perhaps you are right. 

Wait, when did Madara shatter them? And yes, they can give Itachi  trouble. They are large, strong, and durable; even if slow, Itachi will  have to deal with them and Onoki at the same time which can make things  harder as a whole. 



> You have Muu going invisible right away and people avoiding eye-contact  right away and you are complaining about MS being OOC? Okay.


How  are those OOC? Especially against an Uchiha? Muu also had a Jinton clash  with Onoki and then went invisible. 



> Overlooking that, Trollkage is not "made of water"; he can  liquify his body, but it is still his body. Unless he uses the water  source at the base of the bridge, he can't afford to lose large pieces  of himself.


That's hard to say, Kabuto seemed to imply Suigetsu  is since he used his D.N.A. to get his power, not a jutsu. Also,  Suigetsu has been hit by surprise before and instantly liquified. Then  there's Onoki's comment here. If not naturally made out of water, then turning into water seems to be a reflex to stimuli. 



> Also, Susano'o hardly takes any time to activate at all. Look at what happened to Danzou:
> 
> his first attack cracked it.
> 
> We have seen this kind of instantaneous partial activation of Susano'o  many times. Sasuke's nearly grabbed Itachi with a sudden activation and  then Itachi deflected it with his own. Itachi used this trick to protect  Sasuke from Kabuto twice. He and Sasuke both used it to grab  Kabuto.


A part of Susanoo takes almost no time, like an arm or  ribs, but forming more of Susanoo does take time. 



> Susano'o is a lot faster than anything the Mizukage can use, and  despite its tell-tale warning sign, so is Amaterasu.


Water Gun  would beat Amaterasu in a draw. Just sayin'. 



> This is another one I don't really hold against you due to lack  of info, but still. Amaterasu GG.


How convenient. Okay, Bijuu  Shroud > Amaterasu. The chakra comes from underneath Yagura's skin,  so it will push Amaterasu off as it emerges since two things cannot  occupy the same space. That's a pretty good counter.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 13, 2013)

Astrαl said:


> I'm blushing.
> 
> But the way I saw it, Gaara's sand blocked an Enton at the summit (which is logically slower), not Amaterasu. I think Gaara's sand and reaction time is fast (it stopped A's kick), but not quite on that level.



I don't understand why people consider Enton stronger than Ameterasu, maybe the manipulation factor? Its simply more useful than Ameterasu, but I do agree with you there. Ameterasu is indeed faster. 

I know I might've been confusing the way Iworded it last time hahahhaa but this is what I meant.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Not true; Kyuubi chakra gives a passive speed boost, as we have seen every time Naruto entered a tailed state.
> 
> Look at Rock Lee. He can't even use Shunshin and he blitzed Madara thanks to that chakra. And Naruto has way more of it in KCM.



Then how come Naruto's speed doesn't give anyone any kind of trouble unless he uses Body Flicker? 

Lee can use the gates which is even faster. 



> Sage Naruto's speed was matched by Tendou's. Tendou's speed was matched by Kakashi's. I shouldn't need to tell you that Itachi could match Kakashi's speed.


What's funny is that Base Naruto _also_ matched Deva's speed, and that we're told Sage Mode gives a speed boost and he used that to beat 3rd Raikage. 



> I don't think the Raikage will be doing anything if he's on fire. He might manage a Nukite, but I bet it'll be awfully hard to achieve anything remotely resembling accuracy with black flames obscuring his LOS and making it hard for him to breathe. The Raikage just might asphyxiate before he actually burns to death...
> 
> If he got off easy and it only caught on one of his extremities (like what happened to A), then sure, I could buy your scenario. But I don't think the Raikage would hold out for very long before the flames killed him. A was fine because he chopped his arm off right away and had a medical ninja stop the bleeding.


That's assuming he'd ever get touched by Amaterasu. Anyway, Amaterasu is still effected by wind and would then be blowing out of the way of his vision while running and allow him to breathe. He can also hold his breathe. 

Ei's hand was only one fire because he was in rage mode over Bee and bitchslapped Sasuke anyway, knowing his hand would get caught on fire.  



> Clone feinting is a legitimate strategy that you don't seem to have any problem with when it benefits shinobi other than Itachi.


I didn't say that, I was just referring to the speed in which you suggest Itachi will do it with. 



> Itachi could not use Kotoamatsukami, or have the Itachitards used it on you?


I'm glad we agree.



> If it was a Genjutsu "battle" then it wasn't just one Genjutsu, hence the "layer" terminology.
> 
> You can call it something different if you like, but you're just arguing semantics at that point.


I think you're just trying to confuse me now. If it was layered because there were two people using genjutsu, then why did you credit Itachi with using layered genjutsu alone?



> Actually, it was Kurenai's Genjutsu that failed against Kurenai; Itachi's Genjutsu to reverse her Genjutsu succeeded.
> 
> And Kurenai didn't even break her own Genjutsu with Genjutsu skill; she bit her lip to induce pain.


Actually, what Itachi did was copy the genjutsu with his Sharingan and then cast that genjutsu back onto her with his eyes, which is why he needed eye contact with her. So it was his genjutsu.

Right, because that is a counter to genjutsu. 



> Naruto was about to choke himself out. It didn't fail.


There were panting effects, he wasn't choking. Naruto couldn't break the genjutsu, he's a novice in that area, but he was still able to stop what Itachi was attempting to do. 



> Kakashi failed. Funny how you only say that for Itachi, though.


I don't get what you're saying. 



> Itachi never used it on Kakashi again.


The clone, but you're point is made. However, I could say that Kakashi wouldn't let Itachi use it again. 



> Obito couldn't use Tsukuyomi.
> 
> That said, I don't remember Itachi dumping the burden of assassinating "Madara" on Sasuke, either; I'm pretty sure he wanted to keep that p*d*p**** as far away from his brother as humanly possible.


My point is that if Sasuke can't handle himself against Itachi, how could he handle himself against Obito, Nagato, and Akatsuki in general? 

If Itachi had it his way, yes, Sasuke wouldn't have went with Obito. However, he was trying to make Sasuke scoff Akatsuki knowing they'd try to gain him as an ally, and he wanted Sasuke to fight for Konoha, both of which would lead Sasuke into direct confrontation with Obito, Nagato, and Akatsuki. He should had known that, and I don't think Itachi would had left his little brother without being able to protect himself. 



> Sharingan and Uchiha blood can break Tsukuyomi with sufficient power/skill. I thought that was made pretty clear, considering we saw it pay off like that.


No it cannot. Itachi said that Tsukiyomi is unbreakable, but said that only someone with the same blood and eyes as him can beat him, not Tsukiyomi. I think that was a sarcastic comment at Kakashi having the Sharingan, but not having Uchiha blood or MS. 



> Weren't you the one saying plot has no bearing here?
> 
> Your double-standards have really gotten old.


Noted, but yours have gotten old as well, lol. 

Anyway, I forget what provoked me to add that. 




> It took effect and successfully impeded Orochimaru enough for Itachi to capitalize. On its own? Yeah, it would not have been enough. But what you don't seem to realize is that Itachi is not restricted to using only Genjutsu; it is just one extremely valuable asset he can rely on in conjunction with his other abilities.
> 
> That said, the fact that it is often insufficient by itself does not mean it isn't valuable, high-level, or that Itachi isn't abnormally skilled at it. How many other shinobi can even put Orochimaru in Genjutsu in the first place? Probably not many unless you look only at the Kage level.


I will say that genjutsu is useful for distractions and tricks. And yes, I do understand that about Itachi. He really is a very skilled and powerful character, you're not going to see me to say otherwise. I have a lot of respect for what he's capable of. That said, a lot of things look better on paper than they do in practice, and for all his strengths there are also flaws and weaknesses that come with them, flaws and weaknesses that are intrusive to the outcome of a battle, depending on how the opponent can exploit them. I don't hold this just against Itachi, it goes for all characters. 

I question the overall effectiveness of genjutsu in battle. Genjutsu isn't a rare ability, even regardless of the varying levels of ninjas out there, without the capability of handling genjutsu then these high-tiered and legendary characters would had died the first time they encountered a genjutsu user, especially in the Chuunin exams. These ninjas must had encountered many genjutsu users, where detecting and adapting/breaking it as quickly as possible was necessary. It's like the point you made with Orochimaru, it gave Itachi the time he needed, so why wouldn't that be true for any other genjutsu user? And I like I said, these ninjas didn't start off high-tiered or legendary, they got that way. 
That said, genjutsu can be good for misdirection and some tricks, but I wouldn't argue that it would win a fight (unless it's a super genjutsu) since it's so questionable.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 13, 2013)

Cont...



> You decided this for me. I said no such thing, ever.
> 
> Now, Genjutsu _and a kunai or some other finisher_ is a different  story. And if we're talking about Tsukuyomi, that's endgame by itself  for most shinobi. But these things can be avoided by simply not looking  at Itachi's upper-body.
> 
> The trade-off is the inability to anticipate his Ninjutsu, though. As an  alternative, that may be better, but the lesser of two evils is still  evil.


How does that correct what I said? "Genjutsu GG" must mean  genjutsu + attack.

You can still look at his upper body, and you really don't even have to  see handseals to react to ninjutsu. There are ninjutsu out there that  only require one, if any, handseals, and not even all handseals are  going to be seen anyway if your vision is obscured or distracted. These  are problems that ninjas should be experienced at dealing with. 



> Me telling the truth spurred you to lie and troll with a clear  conscience? Okay.



How did I lie in regards to your  embellishments? 



> Yes it is broken; Genjutsu can do everything from create false  images to control minds. And all it takes is eye-contact, or sound, or  the wiggle of a finger.
> 
> What's vague or poorly defined about it? If you look in Itachi's eyes,  he will make you see, feel, and hear whatever he wants. The only way to  break it (if you don't have a Doujutsu and comparable skill/power) is to  hurt yourself. That's pretty straightforward.
> 
> As for Kurenai and Shii, they are both Jounin, even though all they can  use offensively is Genjutsu and physical combat.


Not really  control minds, more like deceive minds into acting out a false scenario.  As powerful as genjutsu can be, it's balanced out. Remember what I said  about things being more powerful on paper than in practice? More  experienced ninjas can feel their chakra being messed with, notice  things that around right about the situation, etc. This alerts them to  genjutsu usage. Then from there they need chakra control to break it,  this works in one of three ways: 1. alter your flow of chakra. If that  doesn't work, then 2. stop your flow of chakra. 3. Another alternative  is to push your chakra out. There are other ways to counter genjutsu,  such as with pain, a partner method, attacking the genjutsu user, or  even using a genjutsu of your own. 

Right, that is straightforward, which really gives genjutsu a small  window of opportunity to work. And really, that can be replicated by  other non-genjutsu means, like Zabuza could use her Hidden Mist, in  substitution for genjutsu, and then stab you in the face with a kunai.  Semantics, same but different. Hidden Mist however can't be broken  unless Zabuza is defeated. 

Also, Itachi didn't just wiggle a finger, he did handseals first and  then you had to look at his finger. Kurenai did some handseals and  everyone nearby was caught in her genjutsu. 



> No, he said he couldn't take Itachi's body _because Itachi was stronger than him_.


Right, not defeat Itachi, take his body. 



> Sasuke completely dominated armless Orochimaru, albeit due to his condition at the time.
> 
> Also, Itachi never resisted Fushi Tensei because Orochimaru never got  the chance to use it on him. Itachi took his hand off and sent him  packing before he could.


I don't know why you're mentioning the  physical encounter, particularly since we're in agreement about the  circumstances being in Sasuke's favor, it's the spiritual battle that's  the issue here. Sasuke was too strong for Orochimaru to take over, same  with Itachi.

How do you know? All we saw was the "end" of their encounter. When  Sasuke used the stakes genjutsu to combat against Fushi Tensei,  Orochimaru instantly remembered Itachi doing the same when he tried to  take his body. History was repeating itself. 
And also, Sasuke chopped Orochimaru up into pieces and he still used  Fushi Tensei on him, so what was losing a hand supposed to do to stop  Orochimaru from using Fushi Tensei on him? After all these years, I  still can't fathom how some people actually think that cutting off  Orochimaru's hand really means anything. He's an immortal regenerating  freak, he laughs at getting sliced to pieces... literally, and he keeps  going. 



> No he wasn't; he explicitly stated he didn't have the power to take  Sasuke's body yet.


Right, "yet." That means he would. And what  did he do? He got his arms back. If "yet" hasn't happened yet, I'm eager  to see when it does. 



> We know exactly how Itachi and Orochimaru compare:
> 
> his first attack cracked it.
> 
> Itachi is stronger.


You keep throwing that page around using it out of context.

Edit: Shit, it really took me 4 hours to respond to all of this?


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jul 13, 2013)

Hashirama - Hashirama stomps.  He uses eternal darkness genjutsu and wood rapes Itachi in the dark.  No sage mode needed.

Tobirama - Tobirama wins. Hashirama died before him, so he ET hashirama and rapes Itachi to end a debatable match.

Hiruzen (old) - Itachi wins this one.  Amaterasu ends this quickly.

Minato -  Minato wins.  Minato secretly tags one of his kage bunshin.  Minato's kage Bunshin rushes in and either blitzes Itachi or hits a bunshin feint(giving itachi credit).  If it's a kage bunshin, then Minato's bunshin proceeds to the real Itachi  Once there, Itachi will engage, and then get his throat slit by the real Minato from behind.  Remember, Minato's clone was tagged.  If Itachi somehow managed to pop susanoo, he still dies because of Hiraishin's teleportation radius.  As long as Minato's mark is near Susanoo, he can go inside.  That, or one of them hiraishin's the Susanoo away, then they both kill Itachi.  No KCM needed, or it would just be a huge stomp.

Tsunade - Itachi. Amaterasu ends this.

Sandaime Kazekage - Amaterasu should win this.

Gaara's Dad - This guy got killed by Orochimaru.  I don't care what his abilities are.  Itachis stomps.

Gaara - Itachi wins.  I give it to Itachi due to the location.  On that bridge Gaara doesn't really have that much terrain to work with.  Due to perhaps limited sand, Itachi should take with with Susanoo.  That, or make some karasu bunshins and rush Gaara.  Gaara's sand got faster, but Itachi is ranked a 5 in speed.  With clones, it'd be harder for Gaara to defend.  

Muu - Muu wins.  Muu wins due to having full knowledge.  Muu flies up to the sky out of Amaterasu and genjutsu range, then spams jintons.  Itachi can attempt to knock him down with Shuriken(sasuke vs deidara), but Muu has some incredible evasion feats, and is a sensor.  Magatama spam also fails because of this.   Itachi needs Susanoo to effectively counter close Jintons.  His mobility will be limited by every jinton Muu throws at him, due to the terrain being destroyed.  Edo Itachi would take it, but living Itachi runs out of chakra.

Oonoki - Oonoki wins. He uses Muu's strategy.  With clones it would make it more difficult for Itachi.

Trollkage - I am not sure If Itachi can counter his clam genjutsu.  If not, troll wins.  If so, itachi wins.

Yagura - Itachi.  Amaterasu.

Mei - Itachi.  Amaterasu.

Sandaime Raikage -  Sandaime wins.  I had Itachi first, ill post why I thought so, but now I changed it.  Raikage wins due to full knowledge.   Raikage blitzes Itachi, Itachi pops susanoo, and Raikage keeps moving until Itachi runs out of stamina because Susanoo.  Once it's down, it's over.

had itachi to beat Sandaime and A(Ei) first because this: 

*Spoiler*: __ 



 Amaterasu or genjutsu lands. He isn't a sensor, so he needs to look at Itachi to predict Amaterasu.  If he does, then gets genjutsu owned.  

Itachi vs Ei.  Same as above.  Canon proved it.  He looked directly at Sasuke's eyes  for some time to predict Amaterasu.  Itachi would Tsukiyomi him the  moment he did it.




A - Ei wins.  Due to full knowledge.  Same strategy as sandaime.  Full on blitz, and run from Susanoo


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## Sadgoob (Jul 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Uh, what are you talking about. There was no way for Itachi to have the kunai hit Sasuke from outside his field of vision without first passing through his field of vision. Itachi and his Bunshin were both in front of Sasuke. The kunai could be thrown from behind Itachi but then they would have to curve around Itachi and then back inwards towards Sasuke, which is a slower attack.



But the area behind Itachi was shown. Itachi was behind Sasuke while the clone held him in place, and the only motivation he had in flickering in front of Sasuke to throw kunai _was to be blocked_.

Which is why I'm saying Itachi wouldn't need to curve his kunai to hit Sasuke's blindspot, because he was already in it. It's essentially the same stunt he did here, except Sasuke hadn't prepared a bunshin.​


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 13, 2013)

Hashirama - Hashi stomps
 Tobirama - Itachi wins for now, though that may change once/if Tobirama gets some feats
 Hiruzen (old) - Itachi stomps
 Minato - KCM Minato stomps. Base Minato wins with high difficulty
 Tsunade - Itachi mid difficulty
 Sandaime Kazekage - Itachi wins
 Gaara's Dad - Itachi stomps
 Gaara - Itachi wins, though it'll be with high difficulty (Gaara is a nightmare match up for most Uchiha)
 Muu - Tough one. I'll give the nod to Itachi, but it's a very tough match
 Oonoki - Itachi with high difficulty
 Trollkage - Itachi mid difficulty
 Yagura - Itachi mid difficulty
 Mei - Itachi stomps
 Sandaime Raikage - Itachi mid difficulty
 A - Itachi mid difficulty


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 13, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Tobirama - Itachi wins for now, though that may change once/if Tobirama gets some feats


Tobirama defeated a MS using Izuna who was said to be Madara's equal. I think that safely puts him above Itachi.


> Minato - KCM Minato stomps. Base Minato wins with high difficulty


...Minato's base Shunshin is greater than three Hokages. Itachi gets speedblitzed without even knowing it, then tagged, then he's at Minato's mercy the entire fight.


> Tsunade - Itachi mid difficulty


More like high difficulty, given Tsunade's performance against Madara's Susano'o using Wood Clones.


> Gaara - Itachi wins, though it'll be with high difficulty (Gaara is a nightmare match up for most Uchiha)


...how? If restricted to the ground, Itachi would eventually win, but Gaara can FLY. How does Itachi win in that scenario?


> Muu - Tough one. I'll give the nod to Itachi, but it's a very tough match


Itachi can't see him when he's using his invisibility technique, Mu can fly on top of that, and Jinton can obliterate Susano'o. How does Itachi win again?


> Onoki - Itachi with high difficulty


Onoki can fly, can break MS genjutsu, can weigh Itachi down with a tap and his Susano'o too, and obliterate Susano'o with Jinton. How does Itachi win again?


> Trollkage - Itachi mid difficulty


Second Mizukage's genjutsu functions like the Kirigakure no Jutsu, that means Itachi can't see through it due to just seeing a mass of chakra. Not seeing how Itachi wins.


> Yagura - Itachi mid difficulty


Yagura's a perfect Jin, not seeing how Itachi wins.


> Sandaime Raikage - Itachi mid difficulty


...HOW? Nothing, absolutely NOTHING Itachi has can touch, much less hurt him. Even Itachi's best chance, Amaterasu, has too long of a charge time to even be affective. Sandaime Raikage also has the speed, strength, and power advantage. 


> A - Itachi mid difficulty


Like above, how? A can effectively dance around Itachi's attacks and speedblitz him before Itachi can react.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 13, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> But the area behind Itachi was shown. Itachi was behind Sasuke while the clone held him in place, and the only motivation he had in flickering in front of Sasuke to throw kunai _was to be blocked_.
> 
> Which is why I'm saying Itachi wouldn't need to curve his kunai to hit Sasuke's blindspot, because he was already in it. It's essentially the same stunt he did here, except Sasuke hadn't prepared a bunshin.​



The area behind both of them was shown and there was no Bunshin and Itachi never had a chance to have a Bunshin circle around Sasuke, unlike with Kakashi when he used Suijenhiki. 

The Bunshin was clearly produced _after_ that point. Itachi probably did the seals as he dashed at Sasuke and he executed the jutsu when he stopped moving.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> The area behind both of them was shown and there was no Bunshin and Itachi never had a chance to have a Bunshin circle around Sasuke, unlike with Kakashi when he used Suijenhiki.
> 
> The Bunshin was clearly produced _after_ that point. Itachi probably did the seals as he dashed at Sasuke and he executed the jutsu when he stopped moving.



The area behind Sasuke's right isn't shown at all, and I'm assuming that's where the clone was. A much larger area behind Itachi was shown after the two had locked arms.

Plus Sasuke indicates that Itachi had made the clone while throwing shuriken, so I think my interpretation is perfectly valid in this case.​


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 13, 2013)

Minato stomps? Minato stomps. 



Ohhh dat yondaime


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 13, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The area behind Sasuke's right isn't shown at all, and I'm assuming that's where the clone was. A much larger area behind Itachi was shown after the two had locked.
> 
> Plus Sasuke indicates that Itachi had made the clone while throwing shuriken.​



Sasuke indicated that he did it during "all that". That, referring to the action. The action includes all moments started with the first shruiken thrown up until the grapple.

In any case, there was no opportunity for the clone to circle behind Sasuke.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> In any case, there was no opportunity for the clone to circle behind Sasuke.



Itachi flanking a distracted Sasuke with a flicker at such a close range (and leaving a clone) is perfectly possible given his feats against Bee, Kabuto, and Kakashi. His clone feints are remarkable.​


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 13, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi flanking Sasuke with a flicker at such a close range is perfectly possible given his feats against Bee, Kabuto, and Kakashi. He's very sneaky with his clones.​



In every other instance, there was an obstruction to LOS or a substantial distraction. Sasuke was staring directly at Itachi with only shruiken in the way. You think that Itachi is so fast that his Shunshin would completely elude Sasuke's Sharingan (Sasuke at least registered Ei's Shunshin even though he couldn't keep up) as he circled all the way around him?And then decided to just wait there for several seconds to circle back around and do a fake attack, but one which wasn't really impressive or necessary to sell his act? 

My proposed explanation requires no such questionable assumptions. Itachi did the seals the moment he was darting towards Sasuke, and the moment after the clash, he executed the jutsu. Sweet and simple.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> In every other instance, there was an obstruction to LOS or a substantial distraction.



We've disagreed about this before. Reading this right to left then down clearly indicates that flames had cleared. So unless Itachi was suspended in the air, there was no distraction.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Sasuke was staring directly at Itachi with only shruiken in the way.



No, his eyes were tracking the shuriken and predicting their trajectory as well. He was reasonably distracted. And I maintain that Itachi wouldn't necessarily need that distraction.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> (Sasuke at least registered Ei's Shunshin even though he couldn't keep up) as he circled all the way around him?



Sasuke didn't register A's shunshin at all until A planted his foot behind him to strike, and Sasuke wasn't nearly as occupied or distracted at the time. So this comparison is lacking IMO. 

Itachi's clone feints are fast neough to not require distractions, as shown with Bee, and his flicker speed is sufficient to scratch Sage Kabuto when even Sasuke's Susano'o arrow couldn't.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> And then decided to just wait there for several seconds to circle back around and do a fake attack, but one which wasn't really impressive or necessary to sell his act?



Several seconds? I'd say _a_ second. Not that staying out of sight while the enemy focuses on a bunshin for several seconds is out of the ordinary for ninja anyway.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> My proposed explanation requires no such questionable assumptions. Itachi did the seals the moment he was darting towards Sasuke, and the moment after the clash, he executed the jutsu. Sweet and simple.



Your explanation doesn't account for the fact that they were shown with arms locked and the area behind Itachi being clear. The clone wasn't generated behind Itachi at the last second.​


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## Alita (Jul 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tobirama defeated a MS using Izuna who was said to be Madara's equal. I think that safely puts him above Itachi.
> 
> ...Minato's base Shunshin is greater than three Hokages. Itachi gets speedblitzed without even knowing it, then tagged, then he's at Minato's mercy the entire fight.
> 
> ...


It's funny how your arguing that itachi would lose to onoki, muu, 3rd raikage, trollkage, etc. but in your tier list you have him above those same people.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 13, 2013)

Alita54 said:


> It's funny how your arguing that itachi would lose to onoki, muu, 3rd raikage, trollkage, etc. but in your tier list you have him above those same people.


Heh, I gave Itachi a bit of credit on the tier list. 

Edit: Itachi can still be _stronger_ than them, but they have abilities that are either better than his, are stronger and faster than him, or can counter him. Itachi against the Kages...he's facing a LOT of opponents he wouldn't do well against.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 13, 2013)

Alita54 said:


> It's funny how your arguing that itachi would lose to onoki, muu, 3rd raikage, trollkage, etc. but in your tier list you have him above those same people.



He only placed Itachi that high because he placed Jiraiya that high, and he is under the impression that they are somehow equal.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Heh, I gave Itachi a bit of credit on the tier list.



Because Jiraiya's the one who did all the heavy-lifting actually getting your approval and Itachi is stuck to him in your headcanon like a neglected piece of chewing gum on the bottom of his clogs.



> Edit: Itachi can still be _stronger_ than them, but they have abilities that are either better than his, are stronger and faster than him, or can counter him. Itachi against the Kages...he's facing a LOT of opponents he wouldn't do well against.



That's all bogus. Itachi has plenty of ways to fight the Kage as he is far more versatile than they are, faster than most of them, probably smarter than all of them, and possesses greater offense and defense than all of them.

The discrepancy is due to the following reasons:

1. You don't even seem to acknowledge the possibility that Sharingan trolls Trollkage and Muu. Which, knowing Kishi, should not be hard to believe at all. Doesn't help that Muu lost to a Sharingan user in the past; you just assume Itachi can't see through his and the Mizukage's Jutsu because a bunch of fodder sensors couldn't.

2. Itachi can simply kill Trollkage, Muu, and Oonoki before they have a chance to get away from him. Especially Trollkage; even if he summons his clam, Itachi will at least have a chance to attack that before the mirage takes effect. The Tsuchikage need large Jinton to block Amaterasu and it may still go through and hit them anyway if it eats Jinton like it does Katon; Oonoki isn't a sensor, so unlike Muu, he could get taken out by a well-timed clone feint from Itachi. There are a lot of ways for Itachi to beat them that you don't even acknowledge.

3. You overrate Sandaime Raikage's speed. He is fast, but it's questionable if he is even faster than Itachi at all; Itachi is also fast. Neither of them had trouble with KCM Naruto's speed. You will say Naruto wasn't trying when he fought Itachi, using the weak excuse that he was talking even though Itachi was talking as well and- by your own adamant belief -fighting all-out (which proves it is possible to do both). Your entire argument for the Raikage is "He's too fast for Itachi to hit," which is based entirely on nothing; even if there is a speed gap, there's no way it is that large. Tsunade could hit Madara. Hiruzen could hit Orochimaru. Hidan could hit Asuma. Itachi can damn sure hit the 3rd Raikage, and he has Jutsu that can strike faster than his body. I won't hold it against you for thinking that the Raikage is faster, but thinking that Itachi can't even put a bloody hit on him with all his Jutsu and cunning is just an insult. It's completely indefensible.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. You don't even seem to acknowledge the possibility that Sharingan trolls Trollkage and Muu. Which, knowing Kishi, should not be hard to believe at all. Doesn't help that Muu lost to a Sharingan user in the past; you just assume Itachi can't see through his and the Mizukage's Jutsu because a bunch of fodder sensors couldn't.



Although I disagree with SuperSaiyaMan12's opinion on who Itachi can and can't beat, this isn't a very good counter argument. 

You're essentially saying that Itachi can do all this simply because he's Itachi and because Kishi wanks him, which in the end does very little to help your argument and simply isn't a valid argument in the BD. SuperSaiyaMan12 is right. There is no proof Itachi could see through the 2nd Mizukages genjutsu and thus there's no reason to assume he can. Does that mean he can't? No, but to say it's fact that he can would be to suggest there's proof of the sharingan doing it, which thus far, there isn't. 

The 2nd issue in your post comes when mentioning that since Muu lost to an Uchiha then he must not stand a chance against Itachi. That's fallible logic and you know it. Muu lost to Madara, a shinobi far superior to Itachi and thus that fight has no bearing on how a fight would play out between Itachi and Muu.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tobirama defeated a MS using Izuna who was said to be Madara's equal. I think that safely puts him above Itachi.



Without knowing how strong MS Madara was, there is nothing "safe" about it.

You are blindly assuming at Itachi's loss, as usual.



> ...Minato's base Shunshin is greater than three Hokages. Itachi gets speedblitzed without even knowing it, then tagged, then he's at Minato's mercy the entire fight.



You make it sound like three Hokage using Shunshin somehow adds up. It doesn't.

Minato is faster than any of the Hokage; that does not make him more than 3x faster than the Hokage.

There is nothing about his Shunshin speed so far that gives us any reason to believe Itachi could not keep up. If you take KCM into account and scale from Naruto, then I would agree with you, but you said "base," which is just nonsense; Killer B in base form could have stabbed Minato.



> ...how? If restricted to the ground, Itachi would eventually win, but Gaara can FLY. How does Itachi win in that scenario?



Gaara runs out of chakra from spamming sand defense + sand offense + flying sand constantly. Seriously, he has good stamina, but what you are demanding of him is too much; fighting grounded enemies from the air is OOC for Gaara, anyway.



> Itachi can't see him when he's using his invisibility technique, Mu can fly on top of that, and Jinton can obliterate Susano'o. How does Itachi win again?



Well first, you are assuming Itachi can't see him even though that is not proven.

Second, Jinton is visible even if Muu isn't. It basically turns him into a human lighthouse.



> Onoki can fly, can break MS genjutsu, can weigh Itachi down with a tap and his Susano'o too, and obliterate Susano'o with Jinton. How does Itachi win again?



Oonoki cannot break MS Genjutsu. I don't even know where that came from; are you talking about when he broke the Raikage out of it? Yeah, the partner method is not the same as doing it for yourself; nice try.

Oonoki is also not tapping Itachi without getting his teeth punched through the back of his head; Itachi is too fast and Sharingan makes CQC suicide for the old man.

Itachi can just dodge Jinton if there is enough distance or maybe burn it away with Amaterasu.



> Second Mizukage's genjutsu functions like the Kirigakure no Jutsu, that means Itachi can't see through it due to just seeing a mass of chakra. Not seeing how Itachi wins.



We don't know how the Genjutsu functions, so comparing it to Kirigakure no Jutsu is jumping the gun (which you seem to do a lot with Itachi).

Also, Itachi wins easily by taking out the Mizukage before the clam even gets summoned. Or he destroys the clam after it's summoned. Or Sharingan might just see through the Genjutsu and allow Itachi to troll at his own pace.



> Yagura's a perfect Jin, not seeing how Itachi wins.



Clone feint and blitz Yagura like he almost did to B, another perfect Jinchuuriki of markedly greater physical prowess than Yagura. Or just wait 'til he goes Bijuu and then unleash Amaterasu or the Totsuka on him.

Of course, then you will tell me those things don't work. Why? No particular reason; "they aren't strong enough" is always the gist of your answer (even though the Hachibi and Nagato would disagree).



> ...HOW? Nothing, absolutely NOTHING Itachi has can touch, much less hurt him. Even Itachi's best chance, Amaterasu, has too long of a charge time to even be affective. Sandaime Raikage also has the speed, strength, and power advantage.



So I guess we're just pretending that Itachi can't do clone feints, right?

Sandaime isn't dodging Amaterasu even if he sees it coming, though; he has no way to block it and he doesn't have A's speed to make an after-image against the Sharingan. He might outrun it for a while like Sasuke did, but it will hit him when Itachi's eye catches up.

Or Itachi can just clone feint and hit him from behind.



> Like above, how? A can effectively dance around Itachi's attacks and speedblitz him before Itachi can react.



Sasuke hit A with a head-on Chidori and you are seriously saying Itachi will get speedblitzed?

Again, Itachi nullifies the speed gap with the use of clones and hits the Raikage from a blindspot.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 13, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Although I disagree with SuperSaiyaMan12's opinion on who Itachi can and can't beat, this isn't a very good counter argument.
> 
> You're essentially saying that Itachi can do all this simply because he's Itachi and because Kishi wanks him, which in the end does very little to help your argument and simply isn't a valid argument in the BD. SuperSaiyaMan12 is right. There is no proof Itachi could see through the 2nd Mizukages genjutsu and thus there's no reason to assume he can. Does that mean he can't? No, but to say it's fact that he can would be to suggest there's proof of the sharingan doing it, which thus far, there isn't.



You misread my post in your haste to correct me.

I was admonishing SSM12 for making assumptions and not even considering the alternatives. I didn't say any of those things were true; if you actually read what I said, I said SSM12 did not even entertain these possibilities when he considered the outcome.

I can make a much more thorough case for why SSM12 is probably wrong, but I have done so in the past and all he ever does is ignore it. So it's easier just to keep reminding him that his assumptions are not the only option on the table and let the pressure of public scrutiny do the rest.

But not once did I actually get behind any of those statements and claim "This is irrefutable fact." That was not my intention.



> The 2nd issue in your post comes when mentioning that since Muu lost to an Uchiha then he must not stand a chance against Itachi. That's fallible logic and you know it. Muu lost to Madara, a shinobi far superior to Itachi and thus that fight has no bearing on how a fight would play out between Itachi and Muu.



Except that isn't what I said. Again, you misunderstood me; I was pointing out that Muu had been defeated in the past by another Sharingan user, indicating that the Sharingan could be a good counter to his abilities (especially with the way Kishimoto has used it to deconstruct so many other Jutsu based on its insight). Madara doesn't really have any other special means of detecting an invisible man, and we could see that he didn't just raze the entire battlefield indiscriminately, so it was either Sharingan or something else completely that we haven't seen or heard of yet.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You misread my post in your haste to correct me.
> 
> I was admonishing SSM12 for making assumptions and not even considering the alternatives. I didn't say any of those things were true; if you actually read what I said, I said SSM12 did not even entertain these possibilities when he considered the outcome.
> 
> ...



Fair enough.



> Except that isn't what I said. Again, you misunderstood me; I was pointing out that Muu had been defeated in the past by another Sharingan user, indicating that the Sharingan could be a good counter to his abilities (especially with the way Kishimoto has used it to deconstruct so many other Jutsu based on its insight). Madara doesn't really have any other special means of detecting an invisible man, and we could see that he didn't just raze the entire battlefield indiscriminately, so it was either Sharingan or something else completely that we haven't seen or heard of yet.



We know nothing of the fight between Muu and Madara, so it's impossible to know what even went down during it let alone determine what jutsu were used. So again, the outcome of that fight has no bearing on how a fight would go between Muu and another Uchiha, especially since the Uchiha he fought was Madara, an Uchiha above any other Uchiha.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 14, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> We know nothing of the fight between Muu and Madara, so it's impossible to know what even went down during it let alone determine what jutsu were used. So again, the outcome of that fight has no bearing on how a fight would go between Muu and another Uchiha, especially since the Uchiha he fought was Madara, an Uchiha above any other Uchiha.



But the facts are, Muu fought a Sharingan user and Muu lost. Sharingan having the ability to see Muu is an explanation that would hold water here. It's not the only explanation, but it IS the only explanation that doesn't require 1) the introduction of some new means of detecting Muu or 2) the complete and yet-unexplained absence of Muu's invisibility technique.

While this doesn't show that Sharingan is able to see Muu, it is a noteworthy coincidence that the one who defeated Muu happened to possess Sharingan- the bane of many, many other techniques throughout shinobi history.


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## trance (Jul 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> But the facts are, Muu fought a Sharingan user and Muu lost. Sharingan having the ability to see Muu is an explanation that would hold water here. It's not the only explanation, but it IS the only explanation that doesn't require 1) the introduction of some new means of detecting Muu or 2) the complete and yet-unexplained absence of Muu's invisibility technique.
> 
> While this doesn't show that Sharingan is able to see Muu, it is a noteworthy coincidence that the one who defeated Muu happened to possess Sharingan- the bane of many, many other techniques throughout shinobi history.



IIRC, Kabuto or Mū himself explained that Mū's invisibilty erases his chakra signature and prescence.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 14, 2013)

Trance said:


> IIRC, Kabuto or Mū himself explained that Mū's invisibilty erases his chakra signature and prescence.



For sensor-type shinobi, yes. That seems to be the case.

For Doujutsu users? And the Sharingan in particular? Not verified.

Sharingan sees chakra even inside of peoples' bodies. Unless Muu ceases to have chakra at all- which means he dies -the Sharingan _should_ be able to see him.

There was another shinobi from the same village as Muu who could turn invisible. Remember what happened to him? Shanked by Obito with newly-activated Sharingan.

It may not have been the same Jutsu, or it may have been a lesser version of the same Jutsu, but come on. That's another uncanny coincidence.

At the very least, there's nothing outright confirming that Sharingan would fail to see Muu.


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## Weapon (Jul 14, 2013)

*Win / Lose
*
Hashirama
Tobirama
Hiruzen 
Minato
Tsunade
Sundaime Kazekage
Gaara's Dad
Gaara
Muu
Oonoki
Trollkage
Yagura
Mei
Sandaime Raikage
A


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## Sadgoob (Jul 14, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Muu lost to Madara, a shinobi far superior to Itachi and thus that fight has no bearing on how a fight would play out between Itachi and Muu.



Itachi's perception was hyped by Kabuto to be above and beyond other Uchiha, so if Madara wasn't ganked by Mū's invisibility then it stands to reason that Itachi would trump Mū's stealth as well.

It was also stated that Madara was holding back against Mū and Ōnoki, and it's highly possible that Itachi is stronger than Madara toying around, prior to Madara using his Perfect Susano'o.​


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## ZE (Jul 14, 2013)

Years you?ve been using the fact that a genjutsu worked on Pain to say that Pain was weak to genjutsu, or that he was susceptible of being defeated by any illusion without being capable of fighting back. 

Years you?ve been using the fact that Pa said that genjutsu was the only way to defeat Pain as proof that genjutsu was Pain?s weakness. 

And now that it was demonstrated on two different occasions that Itachi is as susceptible to being put in a genjutsu as anyone else, you want to drop the argument?



-Itachi fell for genjutsu
Conclusion: the second Mizukage can defeat Itachi with genjutsu 

-The manga said the only way to defeat Madara is taijutsu
Conclusion: Madara is weak to taijutsu. EI>Madara

Both of these two examples are true, or at least should be, for those that in the past used these same arguments against Pain.


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## Kai (Jul 14, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi's perception was hyped by Kabuto to be above and beyond other Uchiha, so if Madara wasn't ganked by Mū's invisibility then it stands to reason that Itachi would trump Mū's stealth as well.​



Muu is stated to completely erase his chakra signature when he goes incognito. What is there to perceive? The only real way to find Muu is either through physical detection, smell (prep) or when he launches his attack - I fail to see any other way.

Kabuto praised Itachi's ability to seemingly read other people's emotions and peer into their potential thoughts. Might have wanted to lay down those specifics to not be confused with other areas of visual insight, as Itachi is no greater than Sasuke, Tobi, Madara, or any Uchiha with at least a 3 tomoe in that regard.

And for the record I do believe Itachi would defeat Muu in a fight.​


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sandaime isn't dodging Amaterasu even if he sees it coming, though; he has no way to block it and he doesn't have A's speed to make an after-image against the Sharingan. He might outrun it for a while like Sasuke did, but it will hit him when Itachi's eye catches up.


I strongly disagree with this assertion considering Sandaime has full knowledge here. Amaterasu has a charge up time, which was long enough where Killer B was able to throw a sword at Itachi and Nagato was able to use Shinra Tensei, before Itachi's was able to finish the charge up for Amaterasu. The moment Sandaime Raikage see's blood or strain in Itachi's MS he'll know that Amaterasu is coming and he can ether uses Shunshin to escape Itachi's field of view or interrupt Itachi by Shunshin blitzing him with Hell Bringer. Ether way Sandaime Raikage should be able to handle your typical Amaterasu.

Not saying Itachi couldn't come up with a clever plan using Bushin Feints to land Amaterasu or something like that, but if Itachi is just using a straight forward Amaterasu it's not going to be all that effective hear when his enemies are both Kage Class and have full knowledge. Also I tend to think Itachi would win this match as well just not through a casual Amaterasu.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 14, 2013)

Sharingan has the ability to see chakra

Muu has the ability to completely erase his chakra, which is why physical sensing had to be used to find him.

Muu > Sharingan


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## Sadgoob (Jul 14, 2013)

It's funny how we only acknowledge one part of the hype. Mū was stated to completely erase his presence in the same breath, but people ignore that because it would make him undetectable.

Basically, you've accepted just enough to screw over the Sharingan, which is hyped to see through jutsu and whatnot, but not enough to screw over far less advanced sensory organs. 

The fact is Mū couldn't be tracked by a bunch of fodder sensors, but his stealth wasn't able to defeat a Sharingan user. So the argument that the Sharingan can see through his jutsu is perfectly legitimate.

We've also seen the Sharingan see through a similar invisibility jutsu from a ninja in the same village. Maybe Mū's more adept at it just like Minato's more adept at the shunshin. ​


> Kekkei Genkai: Sharingan
> Users: Hatake Kakashi, Uchiha Sasuke
> Support, Short, Mid, Long ranges. Rank: none.
> 
> ...





> NINJUTSU; Meisaigakure no jutsu (Bewildering Warpaint Dissimulation technique*)
> User: Taiseki
> Supplementary; Rank: A
> 
> ...



A similar technique says *only* the Sharingan and Byakugan can see thorugh it. A bunch of sensors failing to detect somehting is beside the point since all ninja can hide their chakra from sensors.

So dōjutsu are on the top tier of perception, and until Mū shows otherwise, the speculation that he trumps elite Sharingan or Byakugan users is bad conjecture.​


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## Sadgoob (Jul 14, 2013)

And before I hear the really bad argument of "so that means any schlub dōjutsu can see Mū" let me remind everybody that dōjutsu is rare, and their perception advances with skill.

Everybody and their mom seems to be a sensor lately. We've got C, Fū, Ao, Ino, Karen, and the herds of other fodder using it in the war. It's not nearly as rare or coveted as dōjutsu.

Kakashi also said he couldn't see well in Zabuza's initial mist because he hadn't mastered the Sharingan. Sasuke's eyes advanced far enough to see nanoscopic chakra-bombs in his blood.

Neji's eyes advanced enormously in terms of the distance they could perceive. So yeah. Skill is a factor, and on that note, I'd bet that Mū and Taiseki are using the same jutsu. Mū's just better at it.
​


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## Puppetry (Jul 14, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> A similar technique says *only* the Sharingan and Byakugan can see thorugh it.​



That part of the sentence only concerns eyesight, which is why _dōjutsu_ are specifically highlighted as a capable detector - they grant super eyesight. It says nothing about other types of perception.


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## Kai (Jul 14, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The fact is Mū couldn't be tracked by a bunch of fodder sensors, but his stealth wasn't able to defeat a Sharingan user. So the argument that the Sharingan can see through his jutsu is perfectly legitimate.


Except Muu reveals himself when he goes on the offensive anyways; we have never seen Muu use ninjutsu while invisible so the Sharingan doesn't need to be a carrier of hype for Muu's invisibility to be defeated.

Madara may have defeated Muu when the latter revealed himself.



			
				Strategoob said:
			
		

> A similar technique says *only* the Sharingan and Byakugan can see thorugh it. A bunch of sensors failing to detect somehting is beside the point since all ninja can hide their chakra from sensors.


The databook states Meisaigakure no jutsu uses *chakra reflections* to control how light is reflected on one's body, allowing the Sharingan to see that energy and color.

Muu is stated to completely erase his chakra signature while he is invisible.

The Sharingan will be able to see through 2nd Mizukage's battlefield genjutsu for reasons you have established; Muu is a different case entirely and his technique is nothing like an illusion.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 14, 2013)

Kai said:


> Except Muu reveals himself when he goes on the offensive anyways; we have never seen Muu use ninjutsu while invisible so the Sharingan doesn't need to be a carrier of hype for Muu's invisibility to be defeated.
> 
> Madara may have defeated Muu when the latter revealed himself.



I agree, that's definitely possible, but I also stand by the legitimacy of the contrary interpretation.​


Kai said:


> The databook states Meisaigakure no jutsu uses *chakra reflections* to control how light is reflected on one's body, allowing the Sharingan to see that energy and color.
> 
> Muu is stated to completely erase his chakra signature while he is invisible.



Yes, the jutsu invokes chakra to manipulate reality. That's how all ninjutsu works, including even Mū's technique. He's definitely using chakra and he's definitely manipulating the physical world.

I'm also hesitant about the context of erasing his chakra signature. We know ninja can become undetectable to sensors. We've seen that plenty of times. In that sense, they erase their chakra signature. 

And if Mū is not manipulating light with his chakra, then by what hypothetical method is he becoming invisible and why would that be undetectable to dōjutsu that can perceive microscopic details?​


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## genii96 (Jul 15, 2013)

Why do people think itachi would have a harder time against gaara than against sandaime kazekage?,that dude is said to be the strongest kazekage by far.

Itachi keeps several shurikens with him,3rd or 4th kazekages can just magnetize them from a distance ahnd have them impale itachi before he an get them all out.

4th kazekage dosent use sand,he uses gold dust,which means he does not need a terrain to activate  his jutsu.

With full intel,and in character,itachi looses to:
the kazekages,hashirama,muu,maybe onoki,maybe tobirama,minato.

He beats:
mei,tsunade,old hiruzen,raikages,maybe 2nd mizukage,if yagura isnt a jin he beats yagura if not he looses


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 15, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> We've disagreed about this before. Reading this right to left then down clearly indicates that flames had cleared. So unless Itachi was suspended in the air, there was no distraction.​



And I've covered this before. No Shunshin cloud looks like that and Itachi never leaves Shunshin clouds. That was a Bunshin. That and the Katon were together the distraction. Evidently he created the Bunshin under the Katon's cover and moved prior to Kirabi and Naruto's LOS being cleared.


> No, his eyes were tracking the shuriken and predicting their trajectory as well. He was reasonably distracted. And I maintain that Itachi wouldn't necessarily need that distraction.​



Yes, because you think that Itachi moves faster than Ei. Got it. Problem is, if it was true, it would have been hyped. And Sasuke can't track and predict the shruiken except by looking at Itachi. 


> Sasuke didn't register A's shunshin at all until A planted his foot behind him to strike, and Sasuke wasn't nearly as occupied or distracted at the time. So this comparison is lacking IMO.
> 
> Itachi's clone feints are fast neough to not require distractions, as shown with Bee, and his flicker speed is sufficient to scratch Sage Kabuto when even Sasuke's Susano'o arrow couldn't.​



Sasuke had just used Amaterasu, which strains the eye, and was maintaining Susano'o. He was plenty occupied. And yet he absolutely did notice Ei's Shunshin. His head jerked in the direction Ei moved.

Also, you haven't adequately made your point about Kirabi, and your point about Kabuto is moot. Kabuto intercepted his Bunshin's Shunshin and it was only the distraction from the crows exploding in his face and knocking the sword from his hand that let Itachi hit him. Furthermore, he made clear he could have completely dodged had he remembered he had horns.


> Several seconds? I'd say _a_ second. Not that staying out of sight while the enemy focuses on a bunshin for several seconds is out of the ordinary for ninja anyway.​



Focusing on the length of time I threw out there is a red herring. It is a convoluted explanation for a move that he didn't need to perform to sell his act. 
[





> INDENT]Your explanation doesn't account for the fact that they were shown with arms locked and the area behind Itachi being clear. The clone wasn't generated behind Itachi at the last second.
> [/INDENT]



You assert the final point without any evidence. The clone could have been generated the moment after they clashed.


Strategoob said:


> Yes, the jutsu invokes chakra to manipulate reality. That's how all ninjutsu works, including even Mū's technique. He's definitely using chakra and he's definitely manipulating the physical world.
> 
> I'm also hesitant about the context of erasing his chakra signature. We know ninja can become undetectable to sensors. We've seen that plenty of times. In that sense, they erase their chakra signature.
> 
> And if Mū is not manipulating light with his chakra, then by what hypothetical method is he becoming invisible and why would that be undetectable to dōjutsu that can perceive microscopic details?​



Except what can erasing one's chakra signature mean? How does one do it? You insist that it is completely separate from the visibility of one's chakra, but I don't see why that is the case. So far as I can tell, the generalized idea of erasing one's chakra signature should mean what the words say: _erasing_. His chakra signature should be _invisible_.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> And I've covered this before. No Shunshin cloud looks like that and Itachi never leaves Shunshin clouds. That was a Bunshin. That and the Katon were together the distraction. Evidently he created the Bunshin under the Katon's cover and moved prior to Kirabi and Naruto's LOS being cleared.



Yes, yes, and Nagato and Itachi waited until the last minute to mention it? And the clone, which had been hiding elsewhere in your interpretation, chose to approach from directly in front? I remember.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Problem is, if it was true, it would have been hyped. And Sasuke can't track and predict the shruiken except by looking at Itachi.



Itachi's jutsu speed, specifically his clone feinting speed, was one of the very first skills of Itachi to ever be hyped. Sasuke hyped the ability in Itachi's second match. Then Bee was blind to it in the third.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Sasuke had just used Amaterasu, which strains the eye, and was maintaining Susano'o. He was plenty occupied. And yet he absolutely did notice Ei's Shunshin. His head jerked in the direction Ei moved.



Sasuke wasn't distracted by alternate visual stimuli, and your link only shows him noticing that there was no clone left behind. One is speedy trickery and the other is a raw demonstration.

The Samurai burning means if a clone was left behind, Sasuke's eyes would have focused on it. It was only after the Samurai lit up that Sasuke jerked his head, realizing A had moved out of sight.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Also, you haven't adequately made your point about Kirabi, and your point about Kabuto is moot. Kabuto intercepted his Bunshin's Shunshin and it was only the distraction from the crows exploding in his face and knocking the sword from his hand that let Itachi hit him. Furthermore, he made clear he could have completely dodged had he remembered he had horns.



The point about Kabuto stands. Even if he had dodged cleanly, which he didn't, his reaction was still a closer call than the Susano'o arrow, and being in any way comparable to a Susano'o arrow is plenty.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Focusing on the length of time I threw out there is a red herring. It is a convoluted explanation for a move that he didn't need to perform to sell his act.



You brought up the exaggeration about time, so me commenting on it isn't a red herring. And ninja have been lying in wait while clones die since the first arc. Calling it convoluted changes little IMO.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> You assert the final point without any evidence. The clone could have been generated the moment after they clashed.



So, you mean after their hands had locked, and remained locked in the same position after Itachi revealed himself? Why would you assume that the seal was made when his hands were indisposed?​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Except what can erasing one's chakra signature mean? How does one do it? You insist that it is completely separate from the visibility of one's chakra, but I don't see why that is the case. So far as I can tell, the generalized idea of erasing one's chakra signature should mean what the words say: _erasing_. His chakra signature should be _invisible_.



Chakra is _already_ invisible to humans' visible spectrum. Eye techniques are used _specifically_ to see through invisible jutsu. So Kabuto talking about the more common gift of sensing is plausible. 

​


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 15, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Yes, yes, and Nagato and Itachi waited until the last minute to mention it? And the clone, which had been hiding elsewhere in your interpretation, chose to approach from directly in front? I remember.[/INDENT​




Itachi dropped from a very steep angle, which shows that his initial leap must have also been at a very steep angle. I wouldn't say being "in the air" is "hiding". precisely. He is just overleaping his own attack. Also, we haven't the faintest idea how long they were talking for, since conversation moves at incredible rates of speed in Naruto as evidence by all the conversation that has taken place in high speed battles before and after this incident. And there is no indication that Nagato even knew Itachi had moved. He was focused on Kirabi and Naruto. And if you think that he can blitz Kirabi without a distraction, you should have no trouble believing that he might not be noticed by someone who isn't focused on him at all.

(ps, before you say "Nagato is a sensor", we don't even know if Nagato had started molding chakra; I have pointed out before that even Tobirama misses things when he isn't focused on them; and of course, Itachi has escaped the detection of sensors up until the last second before)


> Itachi's jutsu speed, specifically his clone feinting speed, was one of the very first skills of Itachi to ever be hyped. Sasuke hyped the ability in Itachi's second match. Then Bee was blind to it in the third.​



You are confusing the issue. I agree that Itachi's Bunshin feinting skills are impressive. But in my estimation, they involve less speed (still considerable speed, of course) and more distraction. So to say "his clone feinting speed was hyped" is to answer my challenge to your interpretation by reiterating your interpretation. There is no raw speed hype comparable, much less superior to Ei. 


> Sasuke wasn't distracted by alternate visual stimuli, and your link only shows him noticing that there was no clone left behind. One is speedy trickery and the other is a raw demonstration.
> 
> The Samurai burning means if a clone was left behind, Sasuke's eyes would have focused on it. It was only after the Samurai lit up that Sasuke jerked his head, realizing A had moved out of sight.​



You are again confusing the issue. I said that Itachi relies on distraction. I never specified "alternate visual stimuli" as the only type of distraction, so saying that there was none there does not constitute a rebuttal of my position. The simultaneous use of Amaterasu, which requires Sasuke's eye to focus on it is a distracting element. And when you say "Sasuke was noticing there was no clone left behind", you are making a completely unsupported conjecture on what Sasuke was noticing. There is nothing even suggesting that Sasuke was even thinking about clones. It is not logical to assume that was his thought process, whereas my reasoning makes sense given the context.

Ei, to this point, had always used sheer speed so Sasuke would be expecting that, and not clones. Furthermore, he moved his eye in exactly the direction Ei had moved. It is a clear indication that his eye could just barely follow Ei's movement, but his body couldn't keep up, even in time to turn his head. 


> The point about Kabuto stands. Even if he had dodged cleanly, which he didn't, his reaction was still a closer call than the Susano'o arrow, and being in any way comparable to a Susano'o arrow is plenty.​



But Kabuto only got to defend himself from Itachi once he was already at point blank range. Against the arrow, he had good distance to dodge. Against Itachi, he was being buffeted by crows. It isn't a demonstration of raw speed. If it was, then Itachi's Bunshin should have been able to reach him without getting stabbed. It is a quick maneuver, yes, and an impressive demonstration of speed. But the distracting element is a serious mitigating element which does makes it not comparable to Kabuto dodging the Susano'o arrow. 


> You brought up the exaggeration about time, so me commenting on it isn't a red herring. And ninja have been lying in wait while clones die since the first arc. Calling it convoluted changes little IMO.​



It makes it a completely bizarre movement on Itachi's part. It reduces the credibility of your argument if you are having Itachi do something that is not only ineffective (which in this case is fine), but also unnecessary. Why not just have the clone hide behind him? 


> So, you mean after their hands had locked, and remained locked in the same position after Itachi revealed himself? Why would you assume that the seal was made when his hands were indisposed?​



I have repeated this point several times now. In my opinion, he made the seal the moment before contact and the clone appeared a moment after contact. You just pointed out that you believe that probably not much more than a second passed between when Itachi created the clone (by your interpretation) during the midst of the shruiken clash, the end of the shruiken clash, the charge at each other, the clash, and the Bunshin appearing. So if Itachi formed the seal a moment before the clash, and the clone appeared a moment after the clash, then that should be a split second. 


> Chakra is _already_ invisible to humans' visible spectrum. Eye techniques are used _specifically_ to see through invisible jutsu. So Kabuto talking about the more common gift of sensing is plausible.
> 
> ​ [



It also isn't easily detectable to a human's "sense". When he erases his presence to sensors, how does one do it? I mean, the chakra is still flowing. How does it stop "emitting"? I stand by the interpretation that gives full meaning to the word "erase", which is that it in shutting down chakra, it is rendered truly invisible. Normally, it just operates outside the visual spectrum of a human.​


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 15, 2013)

Full knowledge is boring, take that away and Itachi clears.


----------



## JPongo (Jul 15, 2013)

Itachi loses to all of them.

He just can't hang long enough; his eyes can only bleed for so long.

He's always had support except against Kurenai, pre-MS Sasuke, pre-SM/KCM/BM Naruto.

He cheated against Kakashi, Deidara and Oro.

He ran away from Jiraiya and Gai w/jounins.

And he wasn't even worth a thought against Nagato.

Do we need to explain what SM Kabuto did to this guy in edo version? lol.

CS Sasuke fireball > MS Itachi fireball, requiring Itachi to switch to amaterasu.

And also all this time he kept his mouth shut against Obito only to plan a failed post-mortem ambush.

Hashirama and Minato are not debatable.  They stomp HARD while KCM Minato stomps hardest.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 15, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> > You are confusing the issue. I agree that Itachi's Bunshin feinting skills are impressive. But in my estimation, they involve less speed (still considerable speed, of course) and more distraction. So to say "his clone feinting speed was hyped" is to answer my challenge to your interpretation by reiterating your interpretation. There is no raw speed hype comparable, much less superior to Ei.
> 
> 
> Itachi's bunshin feints have been hyped off of pure speed. In his first encounter vs Konoha Jounin, Itachi was able to create a shadow bushin right in front of Kurenai's face without her knowing: vs Sasuke: who has a sharingan, Sasuke didn't even know Itachi made seals, or was casting a jutsu as we saw in the panel it seemed to seemingly appear from his body, almost as if it were a passive ability: the second time Itachi was able to out speed a sharingan execution wise(also id so vs Kakashi, and hell even Nagato)
> ...


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jul 15, 2013)

Doujutsu can't see Muu unless the manga says so.  Too much speculation.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 16, 2013)

Wait, are people really saying Mei beats him?


----------



## Seon (Jul 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> In case anyone wants to know my opinion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Second this.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2013)

Final Jutsu said:


> Doujutsu can't see Muu unless the manga says so.  Too much speculation.



It is just the otherway around.

Muu can't hide from Dojutsu unless it is stated that he can.


----------



## genii96 (Jul 16, 2013)

Kazekages beat him


----------



## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Jul 16, 2013)

Hashi stomps and Minato wins. Tobirama has a good chance because of his vast knowledge on sharingan/MS users. 3th/4th Raikage and Muu stand a small chance. Gaara has counters for all Itachi's Ms jutsu but I still dont see him winning.


----------



## genii96 (Jul 16, 2013)

the_symbol_of_rebirth said:


> Hashi stomps and Minato wins. Tobirama has a good chance because of his vast knowledge on sharingan/MS users. 3th/4th Raikage and Muu stand a small chance. Gaara has counters for all Itachi's Ms jutsu but I still dont see him winning.



if gaara has counters for all itachi's techs,then why cant you see him winning?:|


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jul 16, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is just the otherway around.
> 
> Muu can't hide from Dojutsu unless it is stated that he can.



Nope.  Manga said Muu can't be detected.  He erases his entire presence.  This isn't the same jutsu as the fodder in kakashi gaiden.  It's same course you Itachi fans take in demanding evidence of being able to counter or fight against his gengutsu.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 16, 2013)

JPongo said:


> Itachi loses to all of them.



Good one


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2013)

Final Jutsu said:


> Nope.  Manga said Muu can't be detected.  He erases his entire presence.  This isn't the same jutsu as the fodder in kakashi gaiden.  It's same course you Itachi fans take in demanding evidence of being able to counter or fight against his gengutsu.



You don't even know what "erasing his presence" means. No one does tbh. Its all speculation.

Nothing was said in regards to dojutsu, though.

There isn't enough information on invisiblity, but we know for a fact that sharingan sees through ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu.
As of now, there is no reason to overlook that.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jul 16, 2013)

Damn I love dem posts... Can't believe people actually believe Itachi can defeat Hashirama and with full knowledge at that.

Anyway, he defeats them all with the *possible* exceptions being Tobirama(needs feats), A and Minato. I'm assuming this is normal Minato, not KCM Minato.

Needless to say Hashirama recks him.


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 16, 2013)

Itachi should be able to beat most of them with low to mid difficulty (blue). Some with mid to high difficulty (purple). Personally, I only see Hashirama and Minato as posing a true problem (red).


*Spoiler*: _Explanation on the difficult/controversial fights_ 



Hashirama is definitely stronger than Itachi, but, as Kabuto said, Itachi's true power was his ability to read his opponents, so he might be one step ahead of Hashirama's techniques so that he isn't overwhelmed by their immense power. Hashirama is likely capable of evading Tsukuyomi because of his SM sensing, so Itachi will be forced to finish the fight with Totsuka or Amaterasu, because Izanami isn't likely to succeed either. Itachi's only option is to feint Hashirama like what happened to Madara at VotE and then quickly go for a killing blow. So I can see Itachi winning despite being weaker, but then it is easier to see Hashirama win with his overwhelming might. But then, it is evident that it is easier to see a win using simple strength rather than one requiring an intelligent strategy.. otherwise the strategy would be too obvious and fail.

Minato is quick, but it'll be hard for him to avoid Genjutsu altogether. He is one stare away from defeat. On the other hand Itachi is also one touch away from defeat, because getting tagged is (almost) certain death. So this one could go either way especially since Minato has shown to be highly intelligent and skilled as well.




Hashirama
Tobirama
Hiruzen (old)
Minato
Tsunade
Sandaime Kazekage
Gaara's Dad
Gaara
Muu
Oonoki
Trollkage
Yagura
Mei
Sandaime Raikage
A​


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 16, 2013)

Green = Definitely beats Itachi.
Gray = Could go either way.
Red = Definitely loses to Itachi.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama
Tobirama
Hiruzen (old)
Minato
Tsunade
Sandaime Kazekage
Gaara's Dad
Gaara
Muu
Oonoki
Trollkage
Yagura
Mei
Sandaime Raikage
A


----------



## Veracity (Jul 16, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Green = Definitely beats Itachi.
> Gray = Could go either way.
> Red = Definitely loses to Itachi.
> 
> ...



Please say I'm bad at picking up on sarcasm, or just please say your joking.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 16, 2013)

I _never_ joke when it comes to Itachi.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 16, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> I swear... Itachi threads in the BD, KL, or KT are always filled with overwhelming wank, or unrelenting hate. And more often than not, a combination of the two...
> 
> FInd it kinda funny actually



I was right, after all


----------



## JPongo (Jul 16, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I _never_ joke when it comes to Itachi.



Then u sir are sadly and pathetically mistaken on your picks


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 16, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You don't even know what "erasing his presence" means. No one does tbh. Its all speculation.



No, Grimmjowsensei. The context makes it crystal clear what it meant. Muu got impressed that a sensor was actually able to find him. Then Kabuto goes on to say that Muu erases his presence i.e. his chakra. Hence the moniker the "invisible man". 



> Nothing was said in regards to dojutsu, though.
> 
> There isn't enough information on invisiblity, but we know for a fact that sharingan sees through ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu.
> As of now, there is no reason to overlook that.



Don't overlook the facts. Itachi showed us the Sharingan isn't able to see past high tier invisibility (he didn't even see Nagato's summon in front of him).

So if Muu erases his chakra, then the Sharingan obviously can't see it.


----------



## Chess Master (Jul 16, 2013)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand a troll thread 

People actually thought that Hashirama would lose lol ? Seriously? The guy broke out of ET like it was his little bitch...

Bottom line is, all the others smoke weed while watching Hashirama lolstomprapeitachi'sass to oblivion


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 17, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Green = Definitely beats Itachi.
> Gray = Could go either way.
> Red = Definitely loses to Itachi.
> 
> ...







Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No, Grimmjowsensei. The context makes it crystal clear what it meant. Muu got impressed that a sensor was actually able to find him. Then Kabuto goes on to say that Muu erases his presence i.e. his chakra. Hence the moniker the "invisible man".



A chakra sensor is different from a Doujutsu user, though.



> Don't overlook the facts. Itachi showed us the Sharingan isn't able to see past high tier invisibility (he didn't even see Nagato's summon in front of him).



This was not shown at all; this is something you have assumed.

We have no idea if Itachi saw the chameleon or not.



> So if Muu erases his chakra, then the Sharingan obviously can't see it.



The question is "Does Muu actually erase his chakra from his entire body or does he just erase the chakra signature emitting _from_ his body?"

Because the difference would determine whether or not Sharingan can see him.

I tend to think it's the latter, because not having chakra means you die.



Chess Master said:


> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand a troll thread
> 
> People actually thought that Hashirama would lose lol ? Seriously? The guy broke out of ET like it was his little bitch...
> 
> Bottom line is, all the others smoke weed while watching Hashirama lolstomprapeitachi'sass to oblivion



Looks like you didn't even read the thread.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 17, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Itachi should be able to beat most of them with low to mid difficulty (blue). Some with mid to high difficulty (purple). Personally, I only see Hashirama and Minato as posing a true problem (red).
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Explanation on the difficult/controversial fights_
> ...



I don't want to sound rude, but. No. Itachi is not defeating Hashirama here. Hashirama is winning 10-10. Not even Kishi's love for him would be so big as to make Itachi defeat Hashirama. This guy is just out of his league. And i seriously doubt he will be one step ahead of this guy.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 17, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Itachi should be able to beat most of them with low to mid difficulty (blue). Some with mid to high difficulty (purple). Personally, I only see Hashirama and Minato as posing a true problem (red).
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Explanation on the difficult/controversial fights_
> ...


How about you get out and stop posting?


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jul 17, 2013)

I forgot whether I posted in this thread, so I'm gonna say it (again?)

**SPOILER**

Minato rapes, and it's going to be an even bigger rape when he shows his new jutsu next week. Kishi has set Minato up for the grand rescue. 

Alright, see you later lads.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 17, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Really now a Top Uchiha with MS and we can't safely conclude he's more capable than most Genjutsu users in this manga? I strongly disagree.



We can't safely conclude anything relevant to Tobirama vs. Itachi.

Give it up already. IT IS *UNQUANTIFIABLE*. Do you know what that word means? It means you can't prove how strong Izuna was and you can't show how Tobirama got the final blow on him, so you can't say how Tobirama would handle Itachi based on either of those things.



> Niku why can't you get off the idea of relating it to Itachi specifically and look at in terms of the Narutoverse. If Kishi is having Tobirama beat a MS Uchiha well before he even took the mantel of Second Hokage that shows he's up their strength, which is all i'm saying.



And it's unquantifiable, because MS users can vary greatly in power (look at the difference between the likes of Sasuke and Madara, for example).



> We don't know Orochimaru's exact power and as for proving somethings he had, we'll we can do that in the case of Izuna as well. Such as the basic Sharingan and MS traites.



Sharingan and MS by themselves don't do much. Even in that case, you are neglecting things Izuna might be capable of, such as specific MS Jutsu.

Why can't you just agree with me and drop it? If you knew how strong Izuna was, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.



> It's funny because I have always seen Itach-fans run around saying that feat is worth more than that. And actually though we can probably prove he didn't have C3, Genjutsu Counter-Eye, or C4, we can't prove all he had was C1, just like one can't prove all Izuna had were the basic traites of MS/Sharingan. So again it's the same deal.



Eh, not really, because we still saw HOW Itachi beat Deidara.



> I fail to see what confirmation from Orochimaru proves as it does not indicate the strength of Orochimaru in the flashback. Sure we know Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru (at least up until his recent improvements), but that's not the issue i'm speaking towards.



We know how Sharingan Genjutsu works, so there isn't really a mystery here; Orochimaru looked into Itachi's eyes and that was when Itachi gained the upperhand. Orochimaru's Jutsu don't really matter because he didn't get a chance to use them while Itachi had him under control.



> Of course it doesn't which is why I'm not suggesting anything as extreme as the Itachi-fans ever did, such the assertions that Itachi could own current Deidara as badly as he did in the flaashback or own any Sannin Part I or Part II with Three Tome Sharingan + Kuni in a single panel. Though I do find it funny how Itachi-fans change their tune so quickly when the shoe is on the other foot.
> 
> Again all i'm saying is Kishi having Tobirama beat a MS Uchiha well before he even took the mantel of Second Hokage that shows he's up their strength



Again, the difference is we have no idea how strong that Uchiha was or what he could do.



> Yes, but is it still not a good feat considering Itachi's age at the time and is it not quantifiable as a good feat than?



What does Itachi's age have to do with it? We saw how he did it.



> And it also brings us full circle to the fact that this was not my point to begin with and for the probably the fifth time in this thread I agree with you so far as that point. Where I disagree is that there are no aspects of this feat that are quantifiable.



There are no aspects of this feat that are quantifiable. That's because we don't know how strong Izuna was or what Jutsu he could use.

Derp.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> I've done it before and I find it harder, actually, but I'll try it again.



...Thank you.



> I know you will disagree with me, but I didn't find his taijutsu as an Edo to be anything more impressive than what he accomplished while alive. He didn't even beat Naruto or Bee in taijutsu, in fact he backed off twice.



I don't disagree with you.

I didn't add that condition for myself; I added it to avoid people like SSM12 coming in and denying everything Edo Itachi did because Itachi isn't an Edo Tensei here, which is excactly what he does.



> I also don't think the disease effected his physical performance. Kimimaro was only being kept alive by life support, without that it was just his staunch will to serve Orochimaru one last time, and he would had beaten Gaara and Lee if not for running out of time.
> There's also my view of the origin of Itachi's illness...



I could care less about that, but I will disagree with you here; being sick did affect Itachi's movement/coordination, as Zetsu observed.



> Might be subjectively wrong, but not objectively. He could possibly lose, it's within their ability to beat him. Honestly, I do hate saying for sure who would win, if you ever notice I mostly come into the BD to defend points and come up with strategies using their abilities, not say that they would win or lose for sure. This is the first that I've done it in a long time, and it's not something I really like doing. You think he would win, I think either could win, and that's another reason why I hate debating guarantees, as I said before, anything could happen in a fight and people are torn between logic and personal feelings to determine a winner.



With all the hype and importance Itachi has received within the manga, how you could you possibly deny that he's upper-tier among the Kage? Most of them don't have half the on-screen battle record, the Jutsu, or praise that he does.



> The context of that is "I couldn't take Itachi's body." Sasuke has the same feat, and he was far weaker than Itachi back then.



Uh, no; you're confusing context with consequence. Orochimaru couldn't take Itachi's body BECAUSE Itachi was stronger than him.

Also, Sasuke resisted Fushi Tensei, which is something Itachi was never shown interacting with; had he done the same thing, he would've consumed Orochimaru. Duh.



> Years later, an armless Orochimaru believed he could kill Itachi, not knowing that Itachi was dying. That right there disproves any feelings of overall inferiority you believe Orochimaru was expressing.



What the hell are you talking about? Anyone with eyes could see how banged-up Itachi was. Besides that, we also know that Orochimaru keeps his awareness of the outside world when he is trapped inside the Juin:

this scan

He was likely watching the Uchiha brothers fight as well. Even Minato was able to watch Naruto fight Pain.



> Sakura was able to knock it away "casually"? Do you not remember Sakura having Tsunade's super-strength jutsu?



Susano'o has super-strength, too.



> The iron sand also had enough force of it's own to pierce solid rock, and I think Susanoo's defense is given too much hype. Honestly, it really hasn't been used to block too many attacks, perhaps the strongest ninjutsu it has taken and withstood was Naruto's Oodama Rasengan, but we weren't shown how much damage it did before Madara made Susanoo reach stage 2.



Susano'o saved Itachi from getting killed by Kirin, which is far beyond anything Satetsu (or Sakura) could do.



> Yamata no Orochi =/= Iron Sand, also Susanoo nostly blocked with Yata and then chopped off Yamata no Orochi's heads while they were pressed against the shield... wow, really makes me think about how rushed that was and how much better it could had been.



Susano'o was holding the Yata no Kagami with one hand.



> Yes, most attacks can be dodged, and the chakra shield blocked small marble-sized iron sand.



Wrong. It also blocked the giant Satetsu spikes that were creating sonic booms.



> Not true. You don't have to look at his face to see him make handseals, and you don't even have to look at his face to notice him closing one of his eyes or bloody tears.
> 
> Let's do an experiment. I'm going to post a picture of a person under a spoiler tag, and I want you to stare at their torso and tell me what expression their face is making.
> 
> ...



First of all, gross.

Second of all, why would Genjutsu not work on peripheral vision? We saw that Sakura had to remove Itachi's head completely from her field of vision:

this scan

And if you'll bother to notice, she says it's really difficult to do, which would not be the case if you could just use your peripheral vision. 



> Excellent point, that had slipped my mind. Although, there would be time to compensate for that in a match that may work against Itachi, that is if the 4th Kazekage expelled the outer layer of his golden room and used them to attack Itachi... then again, now that I think about it, I recall that heat weakens magnetic fields, so it may be possible that the outer layer of gold will just fall off since he may lose the ability to hold it up.



Gold isn't even magnetic in the first place.

That aside, Kishimoto did acknowledge in the manga that it conducts heat well, so my point stands that the Kazekage would get baked inside a golden enclosure. He can't afford to rely on an omnidirectional gold shield, which gives Itachi openings to target.



> That does seem too powerful, doesn't it? So there must be a weakness to it (hint-hint, lol). That would lead to an interesting discussion though... what is the range of the magnetic field? The Kazekages could control their metal when pass the range of the opponents, does that mean the field extends that far or just that once it's magnetized that they have greater range?



It's not even clear why they can seemingly only control one element at a time in the first place; it could be a limit of their chakra nature, but that hardly matters when we don't have feats for them doing such outrageous things.

That said, Itachi stomps with Genjutsu, which they have no reasonable way to counter without exposing themselves to death from above.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> A chakra sensor is different from a Doujutsu user, though.



A sensor can actually feel chakra. I the Sharingan hasn't shown us that it rivals sensors in terms of detecting chakra.


> This was not shown at all; this is something you have assumed.
> 
> We have no idea if Itachi saw the chameleon or not.



Itachi was hit with a Shinra Tensei; there was focus on _only_ Naruto when Nagato's summon appeared. It is evident Itachi didn't see it.



> The question is "Does Muu actually erase his chakra from his entire body or does he just erase the chakra signature emitting _from_ his body?"
> 
> Because the difference would determine whether or not Sharingan can see him.
> 
> I tend to think it's the latter, because not having chakra means you die.



I agree its the latter. However if Itachi hasn't seen through one form of advanced invisibility from a summon. Then he's unlikely to see through one from a Kage.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No, Grimmjowsensei. The context makes it crystal clear what it meant. Muu got impressed that a sensor was actually able to find him. Then Kabuto goes on to say that Muu erases his presence i.e. his chakra. Hence the moniker the "invisible man".


It doesn't. 
He isn't literally erasing his presence.
He is making himself undetectable for sensors. He probably blocks the chakra emitting from his body.
That doesn't mean he won't be seen by a sharingan user. 




> Don't overlook the facts. Itachi showed us the Sharingan isn't able to see past high tier invisibility (he didn't even see Nagato's summon in front of him)


.
When did this happen ? 
As far as I know, Itachi wasn't shown after Kabuto took control of Nagato.

Besides, Sharingan doesn't have the chakra vision "on" all the time. It is something that needs to be activated by users will.
So even if we assume that Itachi didn't see the chamelon, it doesn't mean Sharingan couldn't see through it, it means that Itachi just wasn't searching for anything @ that point.



> So if Muu erases his chakra, then the Sharingan obviously can't see it.


Like I initially said, the context which "erasing his chakra" is unclear. 
Although going with evidence @ hand, sharingan should be able to see him.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 17, 2013)

> You're starting to fangasm, watch out.
> First of all, genjutsu is a wild card and their ninjutsu is better than Itachi's, perhaps barring MS but even then it's still sufficient to compete against MS. Unless you're superhumanly fast like Ei, speed is typically a minor factor against the higher-ups. And also, it's highly debatable how unbreachable Susanoo is to the Kazekages, though they do have other strategies they can employ a war of attrition to get Itachi to burn out his Susanoo since there's a time limit.



This is insane. There's no way they can force Itachi into a battle of attrition of their Jutsu can be overpowered by Orochimaru's and Sasori's; those two have NOTHING that compares to Susano'o, NOTHING.



> You're kinda changing the topic, but I'll poke at that a little. I really have no idea how Sasori could had beaten the 3rd Kazekage unless he used his poison gas. Deidara also seems more powerful than Sasori, but the Word of God said that Sasori can beat both of them. It's hard to argue with that.



This is hilarious and frustrating at the same time, given that Word of God has also said Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru.



> As for Orochimaru, he has major tanking abilities, a surplus of tricky abilities, not to mention that we have no idea how powerful healthy Orochimaru is; aside from jutsus like Summoning, Edo Tensei, Great Breakthrough, and that fire jutsu he used to burn Team 7's scroll, 90% of what we know of his abilities comes from an armless Orochimaru that had to rely on his body mods to fight.



And yet Itachi trumps that offensively with Amaterasu and Susano'o; in terms of "tanking abilities," the latter Jutsu makes Orochimaru look like tissue paper.



> The fact that you assume that Sasori is slow and/or that you think Itachi is faster than Ei makes me take this question less seriously.



I didn't say Sasori was slow nor did I say Itachi was faster than A (Where did that even come from?); Itachi is simply faster than Sasori.



> Amaterasu is a tough one, but it can be dealt with.



It needs to be seen coming, and that opens the Kazekage up to Genjutsu.



> Susanoo isn't winning the fight simply by merit of being Susanoo either.



You're right, it's winning by plowing through everything the Kazekage throw at it and smashing them like flies.



> Suffocation, possibly; being crushed to a pulp won't work because Orochimaru has the ability to make his body malleable,



That won't stop his body from being ripped to shreds.



> he even tanked punches from Tsunade.



He was stunned by a tired Tsunade.

He didn't do so well against 4-tailed Naruto, either; his body was ripped in half. He also lost an arm to 3-tailed Naruto.



> Orochimaru has rapid healing thanks to his white snake abilities, and can reattach limbs. He only really needs Oral Rebirth for severe damage, like when KN4 obliterated his arm.



Yeah, and I'm saying the Kazekage can do that with what they've shown, and far more if they can really muster enough power to fight Susano'o like you are suggesting.



> You're fangasming again, and Orochimaru has a ton of abilities that Itachi does not.



Itachi is also stronger than Orochimaru.

"All your Jutsu are useless against these eyes."

That's because Itachi can stop them from happening *and he can do better*.



> I don't see how that helped Gaara, his sand was already incredibly fast and so far only two characters have managed to outspeed it: Gated Lee and Jokey Boy. Itachi should be able to keep pace, for a while at least, but he'll eventually get overwhelmed by it's swarming effect.



The fact remains that Gaara's feat of catching Madara was performed with a speed boost from Oonoki. He wasn't able to just catch Sasuke so easily.



> And your proof of this is, what exactly? The 4th Kazekage's sand could hold down a Bijuu, Susanoo is _*NOT*_ as strong as a Bijuu.



The Kazekage mixed his gold dust with Shukaku's body to WEIGH it down, like he did with Gaara's sand. Susano'o is not made of seperable particles that can be mixed with gold dust.



> Madara's Susanoo didn't physically break through their barrier, his Yasaka Magatama pierced it, but not completely.



Which means nothing because Gaara's barrier was made of sand; you can't "weaken" a lump of sand.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> Cont..
> 
> Pretty fast  against Onoki, and he had no idea where Muu went despite knowing his  fighting style.



Oonoki is was tired and did nothing to stop Muu:

this scan

Notice the transition to invisibility, though.



> How so?



He just needs to eat up the Jinton with Amaterasu like he did to Sasuke's Katon and then either send it through or fire off another one if he needs to. Muu will probably try to dodge and he'll get hit, just like Sasuke was.



> Hmm, perhaps you are right.
> 
> Wait, when did Madara shatter them? And yes, they can give Itachi  trouble. They are large, strong, and durable; even if slow, Itachi will  have to deal with them and Onoki at the same time which can make things  harder as a whole.



Madara broke through with his Magatama and his Susano'o sword, even with Gaara's defense blocking it. Also, Oonoki actually has to make this damn thing before Itachi just runs around it and puts a kunai in his brain.



> How  are those OOC? Especially against an Uchiha? Muu also had a Jinton clash  with Onoki and then went invisible.



Exactly; Muu did not go invisible right away when he fought Oonoki.

Not that Itachi couldn't deal with it if Oonoki could. Oonoki used clones to look out for Muu:

this scan

Itachi can use crows.



> That's hard to say, Kabuto seemed to imply Suigetsu  is since he used his D.N.A. to get his power, not a jutsu. Also,  Suigetsu has been hit by surprise before and instantly liquified. Then  there's Onoki's comment here. If not naturally made out of water, then turning into water seems to be a reflex to stimuli.



Kabuto gained a lot of Jutsu through DNA- not just Suigetsu's. Mugen Onsa, Kumo Nenkin, Oral Rebirth...



> A part of Susanoo takes almost no time, like an arm or  ribs, but forming more of Susanoo does take time.



What difference does it make? All Itachi needs is an arm and he can crush them like bugs. 



> Water Gun  would beat Amaterasu in a draw. Just sayin'.



The last time I made an Itachi vs. Mizukage thread, I restricted both to Taijutsu and gave the Mizukage his water gun; most people still said Itachi would blitz and stomp him.

Personally, I do think Itachi could just dodge the water pistol.



> How convenient. Okay, Bijuu  Shroud > Amaterasu. The chakra comes from underneath Yagura's skin,  so it will push Amaterasu off as it emerges since two things cannot  occupy the same space. That's a pretty good counter.



Bijuu don't have a chakra shroud.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> Then how come Naruto's speed doesn't give anyone any kind of trouble unless he uses Body Flicker?



Because he has consistently fought Kage-level shinobi who are at such a high level.

Itachi, Muu, the 3rd Raikage... They can keep up with that kind of speed.



> Lee can use the gates which is even faster.



Lee was not shown opening any Gates when he blitzed Madara using the Kyuubi's chakra. 



> What's funny is that Base Naruto _also_ matched Deva's speed, and that we're told Sage Mode gives a speed boost and he used that to beat 3rd Raikage.



Tendou outran base Naruto from 100m away with a single jump... Naruto held him off for a few seconds in a Taijutsu exchange, but he nearly took a rod to the face before Sage Mode kicked in.

We also saw that Pain was able to fight Sage Naruto, so whatever speed advantage the latter has is not something shinobi of Pain's speed can't compensate for.



> That's assuming he'd ever get touched by Amaterasu. Anyway, Amaterasu is still effected by wind and would then be blowing out of the way of his vision while running and allow him to breathe. He can also hold his breathe.



Yeah, he's going to asphyxiate even quicker if he holds his breath.

And why wouldn't he get touched by Amaterasu? He's not as fast as A.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 17, 2013)

God damn it; half my post got deleted. I swear I copied it all... 

Fucking internet or whatever.

Well, there's really only one important thing I needed to say, anyway: Orochimaru said Itachi was stronger. That's a fundamental fact. You say it was contextual, but the context doesn't really matter; rather, it's a product of Orochimaru's inferiority. He couldn't take Itachi's body *because he was weaker*.


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## Turrin (Jul 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> We can't safely conclude anything relevant to Tobirama vs. Itachi.


And once again your stuck on Itachi and can't read my post properly 



> And it's unquantifiable, because MS users can vary greatly in power (look at the difference between the likes of Sasuke and Madara, for example).


We never saw MS Madara....



> Sharingan and MS by themselves don't do much. Even in that case, you are neglecting things Izuna might be capable of, such as specific MS Jutsu.
> 
> Why can't you just agree with me and drop it? If you knew how strong Izuna was, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.


MS and Sharingan aren'y capable of much, this coming from the person who constantly argued Thee Tome Genjutsu could solo a Sannin. And we still don't know how strong Orochimaru was. 




> Eh, not really, because we still saw HOW Itachi beat Deidara.


So what, we still don't know how strong Deidara was.



> We know how Sharingan Genjutsu works, so there isn't really a mystery here; Orochimaru looked into Itachi's eyes and that was when Itachi gained the upperhand. Orochimaru's Jutsu don't really matter because he didn't get a chance to use them while Itachi had him under control.


Orochimaru's strength matters considering all Itachi did was cut Orochimaru's hand off & we know Part II Orochi would laugh that shit off. 




> Again, the difference is we have no idea how strong that Uchiha was or what he could do.


And we don't have any clue how exactly strong Orochimaru, Deidara, and Shisui were, it didn't stop you from using these feats to hype Itachi for years.



> What does Itachi's age have to do with it? We saw how he did it.


Because it's more impressive that he did i at a young age.



> There are no aspects of this feat that are quantifiable. That's because we don't know how strong Izuna was or what Jutsu he could use.


The aspect that is quantifiable is that it's a good feat and speaks to Tobirama's general leve. Even if Izuna was the weakest MS users ever it would still be impressive that Tobirama beat him, because he was an MS user. It's the same thing with Itachi beating Orochimaru, even if he was weaker than Part I Orochimaru it's still impressive that he defeated a someone who earned the title of Sannin at a relatively young age. 

Which again is all i'm saying, yet you fail to acknowledge something basic and just want to throw the feat away.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A sensor can actually feel chakra. I the Sharingan hasn't shown us that it rivals sensors in terms of detecting chakra.



Sharingan doesn't "feel," it sees chakra as color. Different process.



> Itachi was hit with a Shinra Tensei; there was focus on _only_ Naruto when Nagato's summon appeared. It is evident Itachi didn't see it.



We didn't see Itachi; there is no evidence in the absence of evidence. We don't know what his reaction was or if he got hit at all.



> I agree its the latter. However if Itachi hasn't seen through one form of advanced invisibility from a summon. Then he's unlikely to see through one from a Kage.



1. We don't know that the invisibility techniques are the same. They probably aren't, because the chameleon could be detected by a chakra sensor (Shima).

2. We don't know that Itachi was unable to see the summon in the first place.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 17, 2013)

Turrin said:


> And once again your stuck on Itachi and can't read my post properly



I'm stuck on the objective reality that Izuna is featless.



> We never saw MS Madara....



I meant EMS vs. EMS.



> MS and Sharingan aren'y capable of much, this coming from the person who constantly argued Thee Tome Genjutsu could solo a Sannin.



I have always said that requires Itachi's exceptional Genjutsu power/skill and some means of a finisher; otherwise, I would've said pre-Hebi Sasuke could replicate the same thing, which I never have.



> And we still don't know how strong Orochimaru was.



We know how strong he IS, which is more than we can say of Izuna.



> So what, we still don't know how strong Deidara was.



We saw him fight, so yeah we do; he was fast enough to corner Itachi with C1 (in Genjutsu) and he could use basic C1 at least.



> Orochimaru's strength matters considering all Itachi did was cut Orochimaru's hand off & we know Part II Orochi would laugh that shit off.



It disabled Orochimaru from using Jutsu, which kept him stuck in Itachi's Genjutsu; that would happen again no matter which Oro you're talking about.



> And we don't have any clue how exactly strong Orochimaru, Deidara, and Shisui were, it didn't stop you from using these feats to hype Itachi for years.



We have some idea of Deidara and Orochimaru because we saw how they were defeated. Shisui is another matter, and I never really used him to hype Itachi anyway (given that even I thought it was probably an ambush, since Shisui died of drowning with what were [at the time, presumably] no apparent signs of a struggle).



> Because it's more impressive that he did i at a young age.



I'm confused. Itachi would logically be stronger as an adult, so why isn't the feat transferrable?



> The aspect that is quantifiable is that it's a good feat and speaks to Tobirama's general leve. Even if Izuna was the weakest MS users ever it would still be impressive that Tobirama beat him, because he was an MS user. It's the same thing with Itachi beating Orochimaru, even if he was weaker than Part I Orochimaru it's still impressive that he defeated a someone who earned the title of Sannin at a relatively young age.
> 
> Which again is all i'm saying, yet you fail to acknowledge something basic and just want to throw the feat away.



It's unquantifiable.

Period.

If you want to prove me wrong, show me Izuna's techniques and some evidence of how strong he was and then show me how Tobirama fought him. That's all I'm saying.


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## Turrin (Jul 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm stuck on the objective reality that Izuna is featless.


He's not featless, he achieved Three Tome & MS, sparred with Madara, and was at a time co-leader of the Uchiha Clan alongside Madara.



> I meant EMS vs. EMS.


That's EMS not MS.



> I have always said that requires Itachi's exceptional Genjutsu power/skill and some means of a finisher; otherwise, I would've said pre-Hebi Sasuke could replicate the same thing, which I never have.


You said it requires Binding Genjutsu and Kunai slice to the throat. Any Top notch Uchiha can do that, which Izuna is.



> We know how strong he IS, which is more than we can say of Izuna.


So what it doesn't apply to back then. 



> We saw him fight, so yeah we do; he was fast enough to corner Itachi with C1 (in Genjutsu) and he could use basic C1 at least.


That doesn't tell us how strong he is, try again.



> It disabled Orochimaru from using Jutsu, which kept him stuck in Itachi's Genjutsu; that would happen again no matter which Oro you're talking about.


It kept Orochimaru stuck long enough for Itachi to chop of his hand that's it. Something which would be laughed off by Part II Orochi. Also you can't say for sure Part I Part II Orochi couldn't counter binding Genjutsu, that is an assumption just as much as anything specific with Izuna is an assumption. 



> We have some idea of Deidara and Orochimaru because we saw how they were defeated. Shisui is another matter, and I never really used him to hype Itachi anyway (given that even I thought it was probably an ambush, since Shisui died of drowning with what were [at the time, presumably] no apparent signs of a struggle).


We have some idea with Izuna, doesn't mean we know for sure the exact strength in any of these cases. So yeah I still find it incredible hypocritical that you refuse to acknowledge Tobirama gaining any sort of hype from defeating Izuna.



> I'm confused. Itachi would logically be stronger as an adult, so why isn't the feat transferrable?


It is lol, i'm saying it's more impressive specifically because Itachi would be stronger as an adult



> If you want to prove me wrong, show me Izuna's techniques and some evidence of how strong he was and then show me how Tobirama fought him. That's all I'm saying.


I already did show you evidence. Top Uchiha in the Clan alongside Madara, Sparred/competed with Madara, and had MS/Three Tome Sharingan. From that we can determine he was a very powerful Uchiha. We don't need to know his exact level to simply say it's impressive that Tobirama beat him. 

And I honestly find this whole thing pretty ignorant of common sense, since Common sense would dictate the Izuna was incredibly strong given his role and Dojutsu.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sharingan doesn't "feel," it sees chakra as color. Different process.



You can't see something that's been 'erased'.



> We didn't see Itachi; there is no evidence in the absence of evidence. We don't know what his reaction was or if he got hit at all.



If Itachi actually countered, Kishimoto would've given some panel time to Itachi. After all, he provided Naruto the panel time to sense Nagato.

There is honestly *nothing* for us to assume he foresaw the jutsu; saw the chameleon _in front of him_ and did so alongside Naruto. 
Now if Itachi had some Gaara style way of finding invisible people, then he's good to go.



> 1. We don't know that the invisibility techniques are the same. They probably aren't, because the chameleon could be detected by a chakra sensor (Shima).
> 
> 2. We don't know that Itachi was unable to see the summon in the first place.



1. Shima didn't sense the chameleon's chakra; she used a technique that senses biological lifeforms. A type of sensing, but nothing related to seeking chakra. [link] 


*Spoiler*: _Databook_ 



Fighting Tongue* Bind (舌戦縛, Zessenbaku)
Ninjutsu, Senjutsu, No rank, Offensive, Supplementary, All ranges
Shima

A sticky acid that dissolves all detected creatures
A tongue binding that makes it impossible to move!!

By using senjutsu chakra, Shima's tongue has grown to its utmost limit and has been shaped like a face. *It then scents out the peculiar stink released by living beings.* When the target's location has been discovered, the tongue extends with terrifying speed. With it whip-like flexibility, it ties up the target and dissolves it with a highly acidic mucus released from the warts.​
[]




2. If he was, Kishimoto would've shown us that was the case. Instead he had us see that only one person out of the trio (Naruto) was able to 'see' the chameleon. In other words, we've nothing to say that Itachi could see invisible jutsu used by high levels such as the one used by Muu; or ones used by Rinnegan users.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 18, 2013)

The Chameleon's technique is not S-rank, so it's not above Taiseki's A-rank (Kage level, guys) invisibility jutsu in any factual sense, which Obito saw through with a 2-tomoe Sharingan. 

Even if Mū's jutsu were S-rank, it doesn't mean Itachi wouldn't see through it because Itachi's skill with the Mangekyō Sharingan and percpetion in general is much higher than that of kid Obito.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The Chameleon's technique is not S-rank, so it's not above Taiseki's A-rank (Kage level, guys) invisibility jutsu in any factual sense, which Obito saw through with a 2-tomoe Sharingan.
> 
> Even if Mū's jutsu were S-rank, it doesn't mean Itachi wouldn't see through it because Itachi's skill with the Mangekyō Sharingan and percpetion in general is much higher than that of kid Obito.​



When you can prove rank means anything other than the difficulty to acquire a jutsu, then your rank point will have some standing. 

Actually if Itachi couldn't see through a chameleon in front of him, it means he won't be able to see a jutsu of a guy whose known for erasing his entire presence (except his body).


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## Sadgoob (Jul 18, 2013)

Eh, if a 2-tomoe Sharingan saw through a Kage-ranked invisibility jutsu, then I think that's enough of a precedent right there.

Not to mention the databook and manga say the Sharingan reads through ninjutsu without restriction, and is above the crowd even by dōjutsu standards in that area.

As for the Chameleon, it had freaking chakra-rods vitalizing it, so you arguing that its camouflage is invisible to the Sharingan based on a negative proof is similarly ridiculous.

Anyway, I don't mind the belief that Mū's invisibility trumps a mastered Sharingan, but let's not pretend that it's the better supported option from any angle.​


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## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When you can prove rank means anything other than the difficulty to acquire a jutsu, then your rank point will have some standing.
> 
> Actually if Itachi couldn't see through a chameleon in front of him, it means he won't be able to see a jutsu of a guy whose known for erasing his entire presence (except his body).



No it's the difficulty required to perform the jutsu: which in turn coincides with its effectiveness and overall usefulness in battle. Hence why Genin level Naruto spanked on a chunin level ninja after learning the A- Ranked Taju Kage bushin. Without that technique Naruto would have gotten spanked. There is a reason we have only seen A- Ranks been pulled out as pretty powerful moves.

Comparing the Chameleon and Mu is like Apples and Oranges. The chameleon(playing off of its IRL ability) can blend out of sight: hence why Jiraiya couldn't see him but could sense him. Mu turns invisible by de-stabilizing at a molecular level, effectively erasing a chakra signature hence why he cannot be sensed. We have seen Kakashi with 3 - tomoe able to see Muscles rip, and Sasuke with 3 tomoe able to trace Diedara's microscopic Bugs despite being to small to be seen. 

Also Itachi is not a sensor, and thought Nagato had been downed by Amaterasu. Nagato blitzed in Mid conversation with only Naruto knowing via intention sensing, it isn't like Nagato had been sitting their mid fight vs Itachi and got him.

Seeing as Madara was able to whoop on Prime Mu, and Young adult Onooki at the same time: I doubt Sharingan, let alone MS would have a significant problem.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Eh, if a 2-tomoe Sharingan saw through a Kage-ranked invisibility jutsu, then I think that's enough of a precedent right there.
> 
> Not to mention the databook and manga say the Sharingan reads through ninjutsu without restriction, and is above the crowd even by dōjutsu standards in that area.
> 
> As for the Chameleon, it had freaking chakra-rods in it, so you arguing that its camouflage is invisible to the Sharingan based on a negative proof is similarly ridiculous.​



You're assuming its Kage ranked. Its merely an A-Ranked jutsu, which means the jutsu is pretty hard to learn. That's a false precendent you're citing. Furthermore considering a three tomoe Sharingan couldn't see an invisible creature in front of it: it means it can't see stronger invisibility jutsu. 

Early on in the series when we didn't know about more powers, sure. However the current results show different i.e. what happened with Itachi and the chameleon. 

You can call it ridiculous all you like. It still does not defeat the fact that there is absolutely nothing to say Itachi could see the chameleon in that instance. 
Using the chakra rods is a weak point given that sensors couldn't sense the location of the controller. The Bygakugan couldn't see anything like that either - it surpasses the Sharingan's insight.

The only ridiculous thing would be to suggest the the Sharingan can see what the Byakugan cannot.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 18, 2013)

B-rank jutsu were explicitly stated to be of a Jōnin-level difficulty. A-rank jutsu therefore dip into Kage territory in terms of the difficulty or skill required in using them. 

So I think the precedent stands. Taiseki was using invisibility requiring a Kage's level of ability. It was impressive: he erased his scent and was dominating the battle, but the Sharingan saw it.

The Byakugan surpasses the Sharingan in some ways―it sees physical details that are smaller or further―but definitely not overall involving taijutsu (prediction,) ninjutsu (seals,) or genjutsu.

So, err, yeah. The Sharingan can see things the Byakugan can't. But Mū didn't trump the Byakugan so it's sort of a moot point. He just trumped sensors, which Karin did too, so...

And Inoichi could sense the rods and the Sharingan can obviously see chakra conductors. He just said he couldn't trace where the source was because Nagato kept changing the "frequency."​


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 18, 2013)

Did someone say Minato up in dis?


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 18, 2013)

I hold that Muu can become invisible to the Sharingan, but there is no indication that the chameleon has Muu level stealth.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 19, 2013)

I was just about to say  Individually he can beat every single one of 'em, not simultaneously. And why can't dat crow use Koto  

No matter, Genjutsu is still enough.


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## Vice (Jul 19, 2013)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> I was just about to say  Individually he can beat every single one of 'em



Only in fanfiction could Itachi do shit against Hashirama.


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## ZE (Jul 19, 2013)

Because he has the sharingan as an argument completely ignores some events in the manga such as:

-sharingan not helping Obito seeing through Killerbee?s henge
-sharingan not helping Sasuke seeing through Bee?s henge
-sharingan not helping Kakashi seeing through mist
-a superior dojutsu like the rinnegan not seeing through Naruto?s henge 
-rinnegan not seeing through smoke 
-the sharingan failing to recognize a kage bushin from the real one

Muu?s jutsu is better than any jutsu present in the examples above 




Strategoob said:


> The Chameleon's technique is not S-rank, so it's not above Taiseki's A-rank (Kage level, guys) invisibility jutsu in any factual sense, ​



Where did that come from? 
Three options:
a)your ass
b)the databook
c)the manga

Two of these options I know are wrong. You should know which one is it.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> > Because he has the sharingan as an argument completely ignores some events in the manga such as:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> Where did that come from?
> Three options:
> a)your ass
> b)the databook
> c)the manga



Info about Taiseki's jutsu was in the databook, obviously. Or are you insinuating that the Chameleon _is_ busting out an S-rank jutsu? Because that sounds more like the burden of proof is on you.​


Vice said:


> Only in fanfiction could Itachi do shit against Hashirama.



Hashirama said Itachi put him to shame in terms of being a shinobi. Itachi has multiple, very fast techniques that could kill Hashirama if they landed. That seems solid enough to me.​


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## ZE (Jul 19, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> ZE said:
> 
> 
> > Madara was able to detect Wood clones from Hashirama with sharingan activated. Sharingan showed Sasuke Diedara's microscopic bug bombs, and Kakashi could watch Lee ripping his muscles. Mu dematerializes erasing a strong signature, not literally erasing his atoms.
> ...


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## ZE (Jul 19, 2013)

A kunai can kill Hashirama if it lands. 
Could that mean any ninja with a kunai can beat Hashirama?
Thought so.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> The burden of proof is on me to show that of the three options I gave, only the first one is possible given the fact that neither the databook nor the manga attributed a rank to the chameleon’s invisibility.



So you are assuming that the Chameleon's jutsu is S-rank then? Kay.​


ZE said:


> A kunai can kill Hashirama if it lands.
> Could that mean *any ninja* with a kunai can beat Hashirama?
> Thought so.



Itachi's not just 'any ninja.' Hashirama said he was better. Your reasoning here could apply to Hashirama finishing Madara with a sword. Could any ninja with a sword beat Madara?​


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## Veracity (Jul 19, 2013)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> I was just about to say  Individually he can beat every single one of 'em, not simultaneously. And why can't dat crow use Koto
> 
> No matter, Genjutsu is still enough.



I have never seen anything like this? Minato and Hashirama spank that ass with ease. Hashirama makes Itachi look like an advanced Genin. Quite seriously.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> Dr. White said:
> 
> 
> > > Madara is a special case. He had EMS, Itachi doesn't.
> ...


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## genii96 (Jul 19, 2013)

Gaara beats him O_o


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## ZE (Jul 19, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> ZE said:
> 
> 
> > Dr. White said:
> ...


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## Vice (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Hashirama said Itachi put him to shame in terms of being a shinobi. Itachi has multiple, very fast techniques that could kill Hashirama if they landed. That seems solid enough to me.​



Just stop          .


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> The only argument here that was supported by false info was yours. No one knows the rank of the chameleon’s ability, so using its rank to argue one thing or another is, should I say, incomprehensible for someone who knows very well that the jutsu wasn’t ranked. It would be comprehensible if you didn’t know of it. But I find that hard to believe.



Yeah, but the argument was one based on probability, maybe common sense, as the Chameleon _most likely_ wasn't using a jutsu as difficult as Edo Tensei, Hiraishin, etc.​


Vice said:


> Just stop.



If Minato had Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, the Totsuka, etc. he'd be able to beat Hashirama due to the surprise-factor Hiraishin enables. Itachi can conceivably do so with clone feints. 

Since he's the better ninja. ​


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Yeah, but the argument was one based on probability, maybe common sense, as the Chameleon _most likely_ wasn't using a jutsu as difficult as Edo Tensei, Hiraishin, etc.​




Well, the chameleon is a product of the Rinnegan. It's possible.


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## Vice (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If Minato had Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, the Totsuka, etc. he'd be able to beat Hashirama due to the surprise-factor Hiraishin enables. Itachi can conceivably do so with clone feints.
> 
> Since he's the better ninja. ​



Clearly you're trolling and I'm not going to fall for the bait.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> Dr. White said:
> 
> 
> > ZE said:
> ...


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

^ Which is why Obito had his Pain reap the benefits of the two dōjutsu.


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## ZE (Jul 19, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> ZE said:
> 
> 
> > Dr. White said:
> ...


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## ZE (Jul 19, 2013)

Madara’s hostility when he heard Shodai’s name, and the fact that the leaf already existed by the time Madara fought Onoki are proof Madara already had the EMS at that point.

Madara: "There is no alliance. From here on, you’ll obey the leaf."
Madara had the EMS even before the leaf was formed.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> Dr. White said:
> 
> 
> > ZE said:
> ...


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## ZE (Jul 19, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> ZE said:
> 
> 
> > Dr. White said:
> ...


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## Matty (Feb 12, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> I know the title sounds bad, but it isn't really.
> 
> This is one-on-one with full restoration for each match, guys. Chill.
> 
> ...



He beats everyone but hashirama


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## ImSerious (Feb 12, 2016)

what year is it


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## Clowe (Feb 12, 2016)

YOOOooooo Dat hardcore Necromancer!! 

Anyway..

Hashirama - Itachi gets the wood up the ass.
Tobirama - Could go either way, But I'd favor Tobi here
Hiruzen (old) - Itachi wins, mid diff
Minato - Minato wins this
Tsunade - Itachi wins
Sandaime Kazekage - Itachi wins, iron sand can't penetrate Susanoo
Gaara's Dad - Itachi wins, same reason as above but with gold dust
Gaara - Itachi wins, though Gaara's defense would be solid against him, and he can get him out of Susanoo possibly,  depending on the location
Muu - Itachi wins with moderate diff
Oonoki - Itachi wins
Trollkage - Itachi wins
Yagura - Itachi wins
Mei - Itachi wins
Sandaime Raikage - Itachi wins - mid/high diff? Totsuka? Maybe?
A - Itachi wins, he's stronger than MS Sasuke.


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## Saru (Feb 12, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> I know the title sounds bad, but it isn't really.
> 
> This is one-on-one with full restoration for each match, guys. Chill.









> *Location:* Bridge in the Land of Iron (Sasuke vs. Danzou)
> *Distance: 5m*






***​
*Tobirama:* Could go either way, but I'm gonna side with Itachi here. Tobirama's fought the Sharingan but not Itachi's Sharingan. Itachi eventually catches him in a genjutsu.
*Minato:* Could go either way.
*Muu:* Genjutsu, GG.
*Oonoki:* Amaterasu, GG.
*Sandaime Raikage:* Eh, it'll be tough with Papa Raikage darting around everywhere, but Itachi should be able to get him with finger genjutsu and Amaterasu.
*A:* Itachi should be able to get A with Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, especially with the starting distance being so close. It'd be difficult with full knowledge, but I think that Itachi would be able to land genjutsu and follow up with Amaterasu/Totsuka for the W.


*Spoiler*: _Hashirama_


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## Turrin (Feb 12, 2016)

Hashirama - Itachi gets stomped for obvious reasons

Tobirama & Minato - Pretty hard for me to see Itachi landing a death blow on ether of these characters when they have full knowledge of Itachi's capabilities and are extremely skilled with sensing & Hiraishin. And even if Itachi is able to defend himself from them w/ full knowledge, which i'm not sure he can, especially in Tobirama's case if he has Edo Tensei w/ Tandem Explosive Tags, he still looses out in an attrition war where he's forced to spam Susano'o for defense. So overall I see these the two Hiraishin users taking it much more often than not.

Hiruzen (Old) - Hiruzen will probably opt for Shiki Fuujin early on due to full knowledge, but than Itachi has full knowledge to prevent being hit by it, so I see Itachi taking this more often than not, but Hiruzen isn't completely out of options if he's clever enough w/ his massive arsenal combined with the raw hax of Shiki Fuujin.

Tsuande - Tsunade w/ full knowledge can defend against all of Itachi's Jutsu w/ Byakugo and Katsuya, except Totsuka Sword, and that's basically what I see the match coming down to Susano'o vs Byakugo Enchanted Katsuya, and Itachi sealing them, and than sealing Tsunade. So I see Itachi taking this due in part to being Tsunade's worst nightmare w/ high diff.

The Kazekage - I've always been of the opinion that the Kazekage's counter MS users pretty well. Their strong omnidirectional defenses can keep them safe from Amaaerasu and Totsuka, and there defensive turtle style strategies are well suited for wearing down MS users, as well as their ground based attacks exploiting the weakness of Susano'o and there Third eye being a good counter to Genjutsu (no I don't think Genjutsu will work through the third Eye). We didn't see much from Sandaime-Kazekage, but since these seem to be general Kazekage types skills I could easily see him having them. So I could see the Kazekage's all beating Itachi, due to being excellent match ups, though by portrayal Itachi is clearly above Yondaime-Kazekage and Sandaime-Kazekage. Gaara in the war being a bit harder to quantify as we don't know what he's capable off outside the desert. So i'm not exactly sure how'd the match go down, though I could see him at least tricking Rasa w/ Izanami fairly consistently

Mu - If Sharingan can't see Mu, than Itachi looses hands down. If Sharingan can see Mu, than the match can ether way, as Jinton is very dangerous to Itachi, but MS Techs are very dangerous to Mu.

Onoki - Basically same as Mu (in the scenario where Sharingan can see Mu)

Troll - If Sharigan can't see through the Clam Genjutsu than Itachi likely looses (I don't think it can) high diff after being outlasted. If it can than Itachi should win w/ Totasuka Sword/Tsukuyomi eventually high diff.

Mei - W/ Full knowledge she could put up a better fight then one would suspect w/ Demonic and Acidic Mist to keep her distance, and attacking Itachi from Long-Range w/ Suitons. Actually not too sure what Itachi would do against that, besides turtle w/ Susano'o, at which point it becomes an attrition war, which I'm not sure Itachi wins. Though Itachi could also win if he has a Fuuton that is able to blow away the Mist, which I think is a fairly safe bet. Or if he could trick her w/ Izanami, so no hard to see how he could pull a win

Sandaime Raikage - Fell like this comes down to if Sandaime-Raikage can evade Amaterasu, w/ his speed. If he can than Itachi looses, if he can't than Itachi as the superior strategist w/ a more versatile style should eventually be able to trick Sandaime-Raikage into getting into a position where he can land Amaterasu. He may also be able to trick him into falling for Izanami due to his simplistic style much easier than most opponents.

Ei - I mean if Ei really just played it super smart and evaded everything he could perhaps outlast Itachi, but I don't think Ei is smart enough to avoid being tricked into eating Amaterasu or Izanami, even w/ full knowledge, and Ei's extremely simplistic style doesn't help things. So I see Itachi's odds as being better.


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## Saru (Feb 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Tsuande - Tsunade w/ full knowledge can defend against all of Itachi's Jutsu w/ Byakugo and Katsuya, except Totsuka Sword, and that's basically what I see the match coming down to Susano'o vs Byakugo Enchanted Katsuya, and Itachi sealing them, and than sealing Tsunade. So I see Itachi taking this due in part to being Tsunade's worst nightmare w/ high diff.





>Tsunade's *worst nightmare*
>*high diff* win for Itachi


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## FlamingRain (Feb 12, 2016)

Is matty drunk or something?


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## Turrin (Feb 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> >Tsunade's *worst nightmare*
> >*high diff* win for Itachi



Yeah Tsunade's defense is tough to crack even for someone who is ideal suited to doing so. So rarely is a match between Tsunade and someone who isn't God Tier, w/ full knowledge, going to end w/o it being High-Extreme Diff


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Is matty drunk or something?



Because I think he beats all but hashirama!? I can see him losing to Tobirama and Minato actually. So maybe not everyone. But I'd say he has a chance to beat everyone besides hashirama.

Or do you mean because I posted on a thread from 3 years ago 

I was gonna do EMS Madara vs Prime Nagato but it was locked  it had like 1000+ posts


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## FlamingRain (Feb 13, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Because I think he beats all but hashirama!?
> 
> Or do you mean because I posted on a thread from 3 years ago



The second one.


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## Itachi san88 (Feb 13, 2016)

How old is this topic? 

However, Itachi beats everyone except Hashirama and maybe Minato/Tobirama... I would say 50/50.


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## Vice (Feb 13, 2016)

Wow. Reading back through this topic, I was being a total dick for no reason.


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