# Ryogi Shiki Vs Saint of Killers



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 29, 2010)

Two people that can kill nigh anything decide they've had enough and will compete to determinewho is the best killing machine. 

So here we go, the bullets that never miss and kill anything against someone who can kill even concepts Who will win?


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## zenieth (Jun 29, 2010)

There's a reason they say never bring a knife to a gun fight.


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## skiboydoggy (Jun 29, 2010)

I'd say Shiki speedblitzes. She can blitz somebody who has no trouble bullet timing.


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## Neelon (Jun 29, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> I'd say Shiki speedblitzes. She can blitz somebody who has no trouble bullet timing.



I don't know anything about that Saint killer guy , but he it seems speedblitz won't work against him...
Going by his obdwiki profile he won against FTL characters .


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## Ulti (Jun 29, 2010)

probably because said FTL characters couldn't kill him. I'm not well versed on the two characters but Ryougi has some wacky power that allows her to cut concepts and stuff.

Make of that what you will.


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## Cypher0120 (Jun 29, 2010)

They kill each other's ability to kill anything.

Now they can finally live normal lives...Right?


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## Fenix (Jun 29, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> They kill each other's ability to kill anything.
> 
> Now they can finally live normal lives...Right?



Not really, being dead isn't exactly fun for normal living.


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## Agmaster (Jun 29, 2010)

They don't kill each other, just the way for their opponent to kill them.  Then go off and drink.


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## Raigen (Jun 29, 2010)

SoK shoots auto-kill bullets, Ryouga negates existence of bullets by cutting them. SoK freezes Hell with his hate. Ryouga destroys the concept of Hell itself. I'd say Ryouga wins. It's one thing to not die, but Ryouga doesn't kill you, she erases your very existence.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

SoK weapons cancels out any effects that would negate them, ergo reality warping.
They were created by God, and you can't bend the absolute laws of God, they overrule everything since he's omnipotent (as long as he sits on his throne, hyuck).

SoK is Death in a physical form.


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## skiboydoggy (Jun 29, 2010)

Ryouga.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> SoK weapons cancels out any effects that would negate them, ergo reality warping.
> They were created by God, and you can't bend the absolute laws of God, they overrule everything since he's omnipotent (as long as he sits on his throne, hyuck).
> 
> SoK is Death in a physical form.



So is Ryougi Shiki. Her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception kills anything short of God. Not sure if feesible through her 3rd Personality but she stated that destroying reality would be trivially easy.


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## Raigen (Jun 29, 2010)

Actually SoK's guns were created by the Devil and God in preacher-verse is useless when off his throne, which was when SoK killed him. Also, _Chokushi no Magan_ (aka Mystic Eyes of Death Perception) are in fact gifted by God. Preacher-verse is full of inconsistent plot-holes. And from what I'm seeing, Ryougi with a katana has an effective range of 9m (27ft). And apparently Ryougi's 3rd persona, Akasha, can remake reality.

But again, like I said, SoK just kills you, Ryougi makes you not exist.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Actually SoK's guns were created by the Devil and God in preacher-verse is useless when off his throne, which was when SoK killed him. Also, _Chokushi no Magan_ (aka Mystic Eyes of Death Perception) are in fact gifted by God. Preacher-verse is full of inconsistent plot-holes. And from what I'm seeing, Ryougi with a katana has an effective range of 9m (27ft). And apparently Ryougi's 3rd persona, Akasha, can remake reality.
> 
> But again, like I said, SoK just kills you, Ryougi makes you not exist.



1: I am well aware that the Devil made the guns, but who do you think made the sword which was melted down? The Devil didn't equip the Angel of Death with his authority, God did.

2: God on his throne is omnipotent, which meant not even Him could change the kill everything-rule he had created for them when he was off the throne, and you seriously think some third rate Type-Moon character has powers greater than God?

3: If were talking about reach, Guns > Sword, effortlessly. As soon as the bullet is fired, it's game over. They *never* miss their mark, no matter what.

Reality warping from somebody who isn't omnipotent < Absolute rules made by an omnipotent.

The equation is simple.
Ryougi would have to be able kill death to defeat SoK.


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## Raigen (Jun 29, 2010)

There is no evidence of SoK being omnipotent. Just because God on Throne was, doesn't make SoK's pistols equal to that. MEoD is gifted directly by Nasu-verse God, who is omnipotent so your entire argument is moot to begin with. Shiki Nanaya can tangle with the likes of Arcrueid and Ryougi makes Nanaya look like a joke. Your argument fails.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Derr, having troubles reading I see.

GOD is OMNIPOTENT, not SoK.
GOD who is OMNIPOTENT have created ABSOLUTE RULES that not even HE can change without access to his OMNIPOTENCE.

Stating that some douche who's nowhere close to omnipotent could change these rules is completely retarded, since it would be the same as saying that Ryougi's reality warping abilities are greater than Gods.

The only person who's failed here is you, probably because of the aforementioned problems with reading.


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## Riverlia (Jun 29, 2010)

> God on his throne is omnipotent


He's about as omnipotent as Thanos with IG aka not really
If you have to sit on something to be 'virtually omnipotent', you are not really omnipotent, otherwise he can make himself still omnipotent when off the throne.


> third rate Type-Moon character has powers greater than God?


She's first rate, mind you, just not absolute highest tier. And that's due to her human body, not her power, which is powered by the Akashic Record


> If were talking about reach, Guns > Sword, effortlessly. As soon as the bullet is fired, it's game over. They never miss their mark, no matter what.


lowest vampire in Nasu verse can see bullet after it is fired and walk out of the way. Ryougi can kill them.
She can kill even the concept of 'distance'


> Reality warping *from somebody who isn't omnipotent*  < Absolute rules made by an *omnipotent.*



Ryougi is not omnipotent, sure
her power come never came from her though.
lurk more
and look at the beginning of my post about Preacher god's omnipotence



> GOD who is OMNIPOTENT have created ABSOLUTE RULES that not even HE can change without access to his OMNIPOTENCE.


That's quite fail omnipotence
and CAPS don't make him more omnipotent, patience, friend, patience.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Proof that the Christian God is omnipotent?
Yeah, it's called the Bible.

The throne limit was just PIS.

And anything from Type-Moon is third-rate shit.
Kiniko Nasu is a terrible author.

Go read Preacher before you're going to try and debate SoK.
God is omnipotent when he sits on his throne.
God has created absolute rules for the Guns.
He needs omnipotence to change these rules, hence anyone who isn't omnipotent can change the rules made for obvious reasons.

God > any random human.

Doesn't matter if you're a bullet timer, you can't dodge something that *never* misses no matter what. It's hax on a grand scale. Not even God could dodge it.

He could fire the bullet in any direction and no matter what you did, it would hit you.


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## Cypher0120 (Jun 29, 2010)

How is that God omnipotent if he can't dodge it?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2010)

I see this becoming one of the worst threads ever


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## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

Does saint even have mortality?


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## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I see this becoming one of the worst threads ever



When you put Nasu characters in a thread, what do you expect?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

Knight said:


> When you put Nasu characters in a thread, what do you expect?



Actually it's more like when After Glow comes in. This is the same guy who said Bleach characters can tank nukes.


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## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Actually it's more like when After Glow comes in. This is the same guy who said Bleach characters can tank nukes.


Oh him?  He was always like that since his days on MVC. It will grow on you. 

But still anything with Nasu involve=derailment.


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## Riverlia (Jun 29, 2010)

> Proof that the Christian God is omnipotent?
> Yeah, it's called the Bible.


He is Preachverse God
Just a fictional god referring Christan God, and does not have the honor of auto-omnipotent. 
He has at least one known limit, and thus his omnipotence is disproved.


> And anything from Type-Moon is third-rate shit.
> Kiniko Nasu is a terrible author.


Your opinion is noted, It's not a proof for the debate however


> God is omnipotent when he sits on his throne.
> God has created absolute rules for the Guns.
> He needs omnipotence to change these rules, hence anyone who isn't omnipotent can change the rules made for obvious reasons.


Omnipotent character that cant make himself omnipotent = fail omnipotence, and by definition omnipotent character cant fail, the end



> God > any random human.


Yeah, and Shiki Tohno is a normal high schooler....
"Normal High Schooler is quite something these days"


> Doesn't matter if you're a bullet timer, you can't dodge something that never misses no matter what. It's hax on a grand scale. Not even God could dodge it.


Except if you can see it and kill it with similar grand scale hax.



> But still anything with Nasu involve=derailment.


This is... true O.o


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

Knight said:


> Oh him?  He was always like that since his days on MVC. It will grow on you.
> 
> But still anything with Nasu involve=derailment.



Nasuverse, derailing threads since 1998.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2010)

I derailed a Nasu thread with Charles Barkley


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## zenieth (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I derailed a Nasu thread with Charles Barkley



The big man has the answers


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> He is Preachverse God
> Just a fictional god referring Christan God, and does not have the honor of auto-omnipotent.
> He has at least one known limit, and thus his omnipotence is disproved.
> 
> ...



I am well aware of the logical fallacies of omnipotence, still it doesn't mean that the rules that were made by God when he is supposed to be omnipotent are moot, and the limit was added because, well, it's a comic book, there has to be certain limits for the plot. 
I'll just put it as God is omnipotent but has limited his own powers for certain reasons, cancelling out his own omnipotence. An easy feat for somebody who is omnipotent. It's like when God was put in a coma in Dogma; he, or she, had limited her powers.

God's absolute rules overrules any reality warper.
Not even he can effect them after he has limited his own powers.

And no, you can't counter the shots fired by the SoK's guns.
It's impossible.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

@After Glow

Tell that to the woman who can kill Ghosts and magic because she can see and cut death. And SoK ain't God so your whole arguement is moot.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I derailed a Nasu thread with Charles Barkley



With Charles Barkley you don't derail a thread you bring wisdom to it


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## Riverlia (Jun 29, 2010)

> God's absolute rules overrules any reality warper.


Chokushi no Magan is not a reality warping power originate from any human, it's a power granted by the Root/Akashic Record, the system that control the multiverse, aka a multiversal (virtually so far, possibly literally) omnipotent and and the mechanism is based on real time - direct interaction with said entity.


> Charles Barkley


Who is Charles Barley?? O.o


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

basch71 said:


> @After Glow
> 
> Tell that to the woman who can kill Ghosts and magic because she can see and cut death. And SoK ain't God so your whole arguement is moot.




Killing ghosts, lmao I'm sooo impressed. 
SoK Kills the Devil, the entire angelic host as well as God himself.

Killing SoK is the same thing as killing *DEATH*, as in the eternal. SoK is an avatar of death.

His weapons are made by an omnipotent who made the rules absolute, a shitty reality warper can't do anything against that, not even God can.


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## God (Jun 29, 2010)

Please let's not get into a debate about omnipotence. Akasha who created a multiverse and was stated to be omnipotent still only counts as nigh-omnipotent here. God should too.



basch71 said:


> So is Ryougi Shiki. Her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception kills anything short of God. Not sure if feesible through her 3rd Personality but she stated that destroying reality would be trivially easy.



Yes, but she's never done it before. Even if we considered that, SoK killed God. Shiki can supposedly destroy reality. SoK has the better feat.



Raigen said:


> Actually SoK's guns were created by the Devil and God in preacher-verse is useless when off his throne, which was when SoK killed him.



Um proof he's "useless"? He's a nigh-omnipotent Cube Being despite it, based on what I've heard.



> Also, _Chokushi no Magan_ (aka Mystic Eyes of Death Perception) are in fact gifted by God. Preacher-verse is full of inconsistent plot-holes. And from what I'm seeing, Ryougi with a katana has an effective range of 9m (27ft). And apparently Ryougi's 3rd persona, Akasha, can remake reality.
> 
> But again, like I said, SoK just kills you, Ryougi makes you not exist.



Void Shiki isn't even in this.



Raigen said:


> There is no evidence of SoK being omnipotent. Just because God on Throne was, doesn't make SoK's pistols equal to that.



I dont see AfterGlow making such a claim 



> MEoD is gifted directly by Nasu-verse God, who is omnipotent so your entire argument is moot to begin with.



By this logic everything in a verse with an omnipotent gets their gift from God, therefore they have powers equal to SoK? What are you trying to say? Because it was strictly Void Shiki that was said to be able to destroy reality, not Ryogi.

MEoD are still broken as shit.



> Shiki Nanaya can tangle with the likes of Arcrueid and Ryougi makes Nanaya look like a joke. Your argument fails.



What does that have to do with anything?



Riverlia said:


> He's about as omnipotent as Thanos with IG aka not really
> If you have to sit on something to be 'virtually omnipotent', you are not really omnipotent, otherwise he can make himself still omnipotent when off the throne.



Excellent logic, I was waiting for someone to point this out.



> She's first rate, mind you, just not absolute highest tier. And that's due to her human body, not her power, which is powered by the Akashic Record



Still, it was said that Saber could kill her so I sympathize with the skeptics.



> lowest vampire in Nasu verse can see bullet after it is fired and walk out of the way. Ryougi can kill them.
> She can kill even the concept of 'distance'



As seen in aforementioned posts, God off his throne couldnt do anything to SoK's bullets. So Shiki would have to have power greater than him to kill SoK's bullets (which never miss anyway and kill FTL characters).

Plus, she'd have to be able to react to it, which she cant.



> Ryougi is not omnipotent, sure
> her power come never came from her though.
> lurk more
> and look at the beginning of my post about Preacher god's omnipotence



God on his throne is still a near-omnipotent though which is considered basically the second highest tier of power (in the right hands ofc)


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## Riverlia (Jun 29, 2010)

> God on his throne is still a near-omnipotent though which is considered basically the second highest tier of power (in the right hands ofc)


Didn't SOK said that if God was on his throne, he cant kill him either?


> As seen in aforementioned posts, God off his throne couldnt do anything to SoK's bullets. So Shiki would have to have power greater than him to kill SoK's bullets (which never miss anyway and kill FTL characters).
> 
> Plus, she'd have to be able to react to it, which she cant.


Is the bullet FTL or FTL character cant stop it?
If it's FTL then yes, Ryougi get killed. She cant even win against an average Servant due to her human body's limits


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## zenieth (Jun 29, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> Who is Charles Barley?? O.o


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> Didn't SOK said that if God was on his throne, he cant kill him either?



If on his throne, he would be able to change the rules for the guns, like an admin at his computer.




Riverlia said:


> Is the bullet FTL or FTL character cant stop it?
> If it's FTL then yes, Ryougi get killed. She cant even win against an average Servant due to her human body's limits



The bullets are hax. If they're faster than light or not doesn't matter, their properties makes then unable to block or dodge. They adapt to the person they're fired towards, most likely.


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## God (Jun 29, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> Didn't SOK said that if God was on his throne, he cant kill him either?



On his throne he's omnipotent (in Vetrigo's Preacher title). Obviously this doesnt take into account omnipotence's logic, but in-universe he technically is omnipotent. That's why he couldnt kill him on his throne.

Just for clarification though, God on his throne wouldn't count as an omnipotent in the OBD.



> Is the bullet FTL or FTL character cant stop it?
> If it's FTL then yes, Ryougi get killed. She cant even win against an average Servant due to her human body's limits



I believe it's FTL since FTL character couldnt dodge it. Either it's FTL or it's hax simply prevents characters from being able to react to it.


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## Riverlia (Jun 29, 2010)

!!! Enlightenment!!!



> The bullets are hax. If they're faster than light or not doesn't matter, their properties makes then unable to block or dodge. They adapt to the person they're fired towards, most likely.



A problem is 
If it's FTL, then Ryougi has no chance
If it's just the hax though, with normal bullet speed, this will devolve into an argument about which hax will prevail between two nigh-omnipotent powered hax.
Although if Void Ryougi isn't counted then yes, the bullets may win.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2010)

Someone once posited an interesting theory that it was the Throne itself that was God, the being known as God was just using its power.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> !!! Enlightenment!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, it did kill someone FTL, so what chance would someone who is below FTL stand?


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## Agmaster (Jun 29, 2010)

If she can cut death, then by your own admission she can cut SoK.  And she CAN cut death.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Agmaster said:


> If she can cut death, then by your own admission she can cut SoK.  And she CAN cut death.



Proof that she has killed death?


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## Cypher0120 (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Well, it did kill someone FTL, so what chance would someone who is below FTL stand?



Again, it depends on the mechanics of that bullet. Is it the bullet moving fast enough to tag the FTL character, thereby making sure that no matter what speed you go, it will hit you, or is it a special hax of sorts that doesn't even factor in speed and distance?


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## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> *Proof that the Christian God is omnipotent?
> Yeah, it's called the Bible.
> *
> The throne limit was just PIS.
> ...




yea, its called "omnipotent god doesn't know what the only two people on earth did, couldn't immediately find the only two people living on earth, didn't know one person killed his brother, etc". lack of omniscience= not omnipotent.

also, what you are using is called an association fallacy. A graphic novel's or comics or books, etc, interpretation of bible god doesn't mean bible god= all those, thats why its an interpretation. THe presence from DC is a direct rip off of Bible God, yet he isn't omnipotent. you can't say  Bible God= DC interpretation of bible god, because they are two different things.

God from wherever SoK is from ( preachersverse?) is nigh omnipotent on his throne at best, IF he was omnipotent, he could make himself ALWAYS omnipotent.


that is like saying goku from a dragonball Z fanfiction who destroys galaxies by farting= the same amount of power goku possess from canon dragonball. which is obviously false. one person's interpretation of a source doesn't mean they are the same.


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## Cypher0120 (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Proof that she has killed death?



If death is a concept, she can kill it. As far as I know, the rules of death there is that she just wipes out the origin of anything from physical forms to laws that govern the universe, therefore causing 'death' through non-existence.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Proof that she has killed death?


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## zenieth (Jun 29, 2010)




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## God (Jun 29, 2010)

Shoddragon said:


> lack of omniscience= not omnipotent.



This statement isn't true, in and of itself.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

Tap it. Tap that ass this instant! LOL


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Killing death itself, that's rich.
It's an oxymoron.


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## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2010)

Cubey said:


> This statement isn't true, in and of itself.





howso? if a being is omnipotent by definition is should have omniscience.


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## Cypher0120 (Jun 29, 2010)

Shoddragon said:


> howso? if a being is omnipotent by definition is should have omniscience.



Not exactly. An omnipotent being has the capacity to make itself omniscient anytime. It doesn't have to be omniscient all the time though.

(So I heard.)


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## God (Jun 29, 2010)

Shoddragon said:


> howso? if a being is omnipotent by definition is should have omniscience.



No they shouldn't, where are you getting this from. Simple and plain, omnipotent means being able to do anything. If an omnipotent doesnt want omniscience, they dont need to have it, or automatically or otherwise.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Killing death itself, that's rich.
> It's an oxymoron.





I know you ain't just downplay Shiki. 

And for the record, it's fiction.


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## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Not exactly. An omnipotent being has the capacity to make itself omniscient anytime. It doesn't have to be omniscient all the time though.
> 
> (So I heard.)



except by being omnipotent, you would automatically have omniscience, by default, since you can do ANYTHING and everything,.

what did bible god just come out of nowhere and say " I don't wanna be omniscient no more" lol? besides, Bible God's omnipotence has been disproven a lot.


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## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2010)

Cubey said:


> No they shouldn't, where are you getting this from. Simple and plain, omnipotent means being able to do anything. If an omnipotent doesnt want omniscience, they dont need to have it, or automatically or otherwise.




omnipotent also means being ALL POWERFUL. so an omnipotent being should have omniscience.


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## zenieth (Jun 29, 2010)




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## God (Jun 29, 2010)

Shoddragon said:


> omnipotent also means being ALL POWERFUL. so an omnipotent being *should* have omniscience.



That's right, they SHOULD. Unfortunately for you, this is just a subjective view and not an actual refutation. You previously stated that omnipotence by definition means you automatically become omniscient like some sort of requirement, which is you something you pulled out of nowhere.

Ok this is getting off-topic, let's get back to SoK vs Shiki. I still think SoK wins.


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## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

We are totally on topic.


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## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2010)

Cubey said:


> That's right, they SHOULD. Unfortunately for you, this is just a subjective view and not an actual refutation. You previously stated that omnipotence by definition means you automatically become omniscient like some sort of requirement, which is you something you pulled out of nowhere.
> 
> Ok this is getting off-topic, let's get back to SoK vs Shiki. I still think SoK wins.




well, this was more towards afterglow's claim that bible god= omnipotent and biblegod= God from preachersverse( or wherever Sok is from). I mean, its simply an association fallacy, but whatever. I guess boredom tends to drive me off topic.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2010)

If anyone here has actually read the Bible, they would realize that it portrays Yahweh as being far from omnipotent[/stirring up the hornet's nest]


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## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> If anyone here has actually read the Bible, they would realize that it portrays Yahweh as being far from omnipotent[/stirring up the hornet's nest]



the problem is, many people who read the bible religiously do it like a DBZtard watches dragonball Z. they act like everything 100% happened and that there are no plot holes and everything counts even if they totally contradict each other.

or they bring it beliefs from totally outside of the bible and try to analyze it using religious beliefs.

Personally, when I read the whole thing, I thought " and people follow this inconsistent piece of shit as a religion, LOL noobs".

but to each his own....


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## God (Jun 29, 2010)

Oh man        .


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## Ulti (Jun 29, 2010)

Jedah Dohma solos


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2010)

Jedah then makes them vote for KR Spirits


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## Ulti (Jun 29, 2010)

Jedah and Kick Hopper clean house


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Jedah then makes them vote for KR Spirits



Why? It's complete and utter shit.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2010)

shut the fuck up


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## Ulti (Jun 29, 2010)

Oh my motherfucking god


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2010)

Cubey level post


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## Ulti (Jun 29, 2010)

no that kind of post makes cubey look like the best poster ever


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Why? It's complete and utter shit.



Negged


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## zenieth (Jun 29, 2010)

Did he just laugh at kamen rider?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Did he just laugh at kamen rider?



I think he just did.

And my Kamen Rider Kabuto wallpaper is not amused with this faggotry.


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## Riverlia (Jun 29, 2010)

> Why? It's complete and utter shit.


D: WTF is this shit?
I demand an ultimate kick for the heretic


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

You seriously like that stupid, uninspired, badly drawn, badly written, cliché of a manga?
LMAO what a bunch of connoisseurs we've got here...

What's next, you think the pacing of Bleach is great or Hitman Reborn is original?


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## Riverlia (Jun 29, 2010)

KR is only a manga?
Lurk moar


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## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

On topic or get out. Enough this trivial faggotry


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## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> KR is only a manga?
> Lurk moar



Kamen Rider *SPIRITS* is a manga and it sucks, plain and simple.
I'm not dissing the franchise, just the manga which quality leaves a whole lot else to be desired...

Unless you're some die-hard fanboy unable to judge the quality of something, it's not good.


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## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

Here's a news flash for everyone. Everyone's opinions on a certain genre is different, learn to  *tolerate it.*


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

Knight said:


> Here's a news flash for everyone. Everyone's opinions on a certain genre is different, learn to  *tolerate it.*



Not if the majority of OBD regulars are hardcore KR fans its not. It's the same as saying "please shoot me".


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## Xelloss (Jun 29, 2010)




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## Bilaal (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> You seriously like that stupid, uninspired, badly drawn, badly written, clich? of a manga?
> LMAO what a bunch of connoisseurs we've got here...
> 
> What's next, you think the pacing of Bleach is great or Hitman Reborn is original?



Considering you're the same person that considers GANTZ a quality manga, your opinion is laughable.


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## Raigen (Jun 29, 2010)

Hey, I like Gantz....and Tsukihime...and Tokyo Mew Mew......wha?


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## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Not if the majority of OBD regulars are hardcore KR fans its not. It's the same as saying "please shoot me".



Not everyone has the same likes and dislikes, It will be a borning place to be if this was true.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

Knight said:


> Not everyone has the same likes and dislikes, It will be a borning place to be if this was true.



Less to do with likes and more to do with flamebaiting.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Ryougi Shiki wins if she can react to the bullets.

otherwise, SoK wins.


----------



## Neelon (Jun 29, 2010)

Stalemate. They get married and live happily for the eternity.
Close this asap.


----------



## lambda (Jun 29, 2010)

The first thing we should ask is whether the SOK can even die, because that's what the MEOPD use to do is job, the mortality of its target.


----------



## Xelloss (Jun 29, 2010)

lambda said:


> The first thing we should ask is whether the SOK can even die, because that's what the MEOPD use to do is job, the mortality of its target.



Thats Tohno Mystic eye, he sees the father dead, while Ryogi negates the existance.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

lambda said:


> The first thing we should ask is whether the SOK can even die, because that's what the MEOPD use to do is job, the mortality of its target.



Actually with MEoDP you can see the death of even immortals.


----------



## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Actually with MEoDP you can see the death of even immortals.



That doesn't even make since, then they are techinically not even immortal to begin with. Though does sound like Odinforce. 

What can stop it?


----------



## skiboydoggy (Jun 29, 2010)

Knight said:


> That doesn't even make since, then they are techinically not even immortal to begin with. Though does sound like Odinforce.
> 
> What can stop it?


Very few things are immortal to the point that Mr. Immortal is. Wolverine or Deadpool would be considered immortal by most standards, what with being incapable of dying from natural causes and somewhat prohibitively hard to kill off with any kind of permanence.

Hell, even Mr. Immortal will eventually die, after he becomes the new Galactus when the end of the universe comes and he becomes the core of the universe after that, providing the energy for the Big Bang. According to one theory at least.


----------



## lambda (Jun 29, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Thats Tohno Mystic eye, he sees the father dead, while Ryogi negates the existance.


Doesn't change a thing. She still need her target to be able to die.



basch71 said:


> Actually with MEoDP you can see the death of even immortals.


Lol no.


----------



## Xelloss (Jun 29, 2010)

lambda said:


> Doesn't change a thing. She still need her target to be able to die.
> 
> Lol no.



it does change a lot, basically Tohno need the enemy to have a fated end, while Ryogi need a start.

And the rpg is calling you ;_;


----------



## skiboydoggy (Jun 29, 2010)

Ryougi Shiki's power is actually cutting away the origin of the target, negating their very existence in the first place. Killing is a bit of a misnomer.

Although even Tohno Shiki can kill people who are essentially immortal in the first place, as long as he can understand what he's trying to kill. Ciel and Arcueid would be considered immortal by most standards.


----------



## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> Very few things are immortal to the point that Mr. Immortal is. Wolverine or Deadpool would be considered immortal by most standards, what with being incapable of dying from natural causes and somewhat prohibitively hard to kill off with any kind of permanence.
> 
> Hell, even Mr. Immortal will eventually die, after he becomes the new Galactus when the end of the universe comes and he becomes the core of the universe after that, providing the energy for the Big Bang. According to one theory at least.



Wolverine can still die from being beheaded longer than 10 seconds.  The keyword they are biologically immortal which isn't a pure form of immortality. Deadpool I don't even think he can die period due to his immunity from death(if he still has it). Mr. Immortal seems to be a contradiction to his name if that was the case.


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## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

What if she fought a opponent like Dr. Paradox who exist outside of time and technically doesn't have a beginning anymore?


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## skiboydoggy (Jun 29, 2010)

Knight said:


> Wolverine can still die from being beheaded longer than 10 seconds.  The keyword they are biologically immortal which isn't a pure form of immortality. Deadpool I don't even think he can die period due to his immunity from death(if he still has it). Mr. Immortal seems to be a contradiction to his name if that was the case.


You can kill Deadpool. If you can overpower Thanos' curse on him. But he's still considered one of the most immortal characters in fiction, short of straight out cosmics.

And Mr Immortal will survive two universes and most cosmics if the theory is true. Pretty damn immortal.


----------



## Raigen (Jun 29, 2010)

Tohno can neg existence of living, non-living and immortal creatures. Ryougi takes that several tiers higher and can neg concepts and other things. She makes Tohno look infantile.


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## Rene (Jun 29, 2010)

What kind of immortality were the Mystic Eyes capable of bypassing?

That should be their upper limits.


----------



## Raigen (Jun 29, 2010)

Anything that exists, _Chokushi no Magan_ can remove it. From what I understand, Ryougi's is far more powerful than Tohno's and she can neg even things that don't exist and/or can't touch, ie energy, abstracts, etc.


----------



## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Anything that exists, _Chokushi no Magan_ can remove it. From what I understand, Ryougi's is far more powerful than Tohno's and she can neg even things that don't exist and/or can't touch, ie energy, abstracts, etc.


Sounds like a no limit fallacy.


----------



## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Tohno can neg existence of living, non-living and immortal creatures. Ryougi takes that several tiers higher and can neg concepts and other things. She makes Tohno look infantile.


Someone on here said he needs an origin or a fated to die.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Knight said:


> Sounds like a no limit fallacy.



Not really, since those were shown. For intangibles, she has killed ghost. For powers, she killed someone's TK powers. She even managed to kill a disease. She also killed Araya Souren's barriers.


----------



## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Not really, since those were shown. For intangibles, she has killed ghost. For powers, she killed someone's TK powers. She even managed to kill a disease. She also killed Araya Souren's barriers.



Killing a ghost isn't nothing special, the same with the person with TK. what special about these barriers? And does she have a weakness?


----------



## Raigen (Jun 29, 2010)

Everything that exists eventually dies, thus all things have a fated time of death. All Tohno must do is see your *Point of Death* and strike it. Only a few things don't have this, one of them being a 100% Arcrueid.


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## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Knight said:


> Killing a ghost isn't nothing special, the same with the person with TK. what special about these barriers? And does she have a weakness?



The ghosts were intangible. You cannot touch them normally.

She killed the powers while they were being used on her, meaning she casually nullified the powers.

Each layer of his barriers holds s a power.

Her weakness is that she has a human body.


----------



## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Everything that exists eventually dies, thus all things have a fated time of death. All Tohno must do is see your *Point of Death* and strike it. Only a few things don't have this, one of them being a 100% Arcrueid.



Not everything that exist eventually dies or that defeats the term immortals. I mean even Clark from smallville had a girl that predicted deaths saw none in his fate. Or some else I'm forgetting.


----------



## Knight (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> The ghosts were intangible. You cannot touch them normally.
> 
> She killed the powers while they were being used on her, meaning she casually nullified the powers.
> 
> ...


I was referring in terms of fiction most low characters in their relative universe that have them can kill them.  Now the TK thing is something new.

I guess I stop here for now, not sure how the fight is going to go.


----------



## God (Jun 29, 2010)

How does she kill abstract concepts? Things like death dont have a start point.



Knight said:


> That doesn't even make since, then they are techinically not even immortal to begin with. Though does sound like Odinforce.
> 
> What can stop it?



I believe he meant existence negation, not actual death. Since the eyes can "kill" inanimate objects as well.



skiboydoggy said:


> Very few things are immortal to the point that Mr. Immortal is. Wolverine or Deadpool would be considered immortal by most standards, what with being incapable of dying from natural causes and somewhat prohibitively hard to kill off with any kind of permanence.
> 
> *Hell, even Mr. Immortal will eventually die, after he becomes the new Galactus when the end of the universe comes and he becomes the core of the universe after that, providing the energy for the Big Bang. According to one theory at least. *



Where did this come from?



skiboydoggy said:


> You can kill Deadpool. If you can overpower Thanos' curse on him. But he's still considered one of the most immortal characters in fiction, short of straight out cosmics.
> 
> And Mr Immortal will survive two universes and most cosmics if the theory is true. Pretty damn immortal.



I believe Lobo is more immortal than Deadpool (if that's even possible)


----------



## Raigen (Jun 29, 2010)

> Not everything that exist eventually dies or that defeats the term immortals. I mean even Clark from smallville had a girl that predicted deaths saw none in his fate. Or some else I'm forgetting.



Smallville is crap. MEoDP can perceive even the death/destruction of inanimate things. If Tohno could focus enough he could make a building collapse to pieces with a single knife jab in the right place.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Good luck predicting the Death of Death itself


----------



## God (Jun 29, 2010)

That's Tohno's MEoDP. Shiki's negates existence, so it's possible.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

Knight said:


> What if she fought a opponent like Dr. Paradox who exist outside of time and technically doesn't have a beginning anymore?



Regular Ryougi would have trouble perceiving his death. Void Shiki straight up rapes him.



> Killing a ghost isn't nothing special, the same with the person with TK. what special about these barriers? And does she have a weakness?



The only weakness is human limitations on the concept of death. Her 3rd Personality which is a link to Akasha, eliminates those limitations and she sees death perfectly.



> How does she kill abstract concepts? Things like death dont have a start point.



From what's stated, all things in the universe are fated to die. Whether it's humans, molecules, etc. She can perceive your death and trace those lines. If you're immortal, the lines of death are thiner and fainter like Arcueid during the full moon or Araya Souren since he has lived such a long time. But, no matter how immortal you're, you can still die.


----------



## God (Jun 29, 2010)

basch71 said:


> *From what's stated, all things in the universe are fated to die.* Whether it's humans, molecules, etc. She can perceive your death and trace those lines. If you're immortal, the lines of death are thiner and fainter like Arcueid during the full moon or Araya Souren since he has lived such a long time. But, no matter how immortal you're, you can still die.



Ok, you guys just said that it was Tohno who relies on the end point of all things. Ski, I believe said Shiki manipulates the origin of everything, cutting it from existence. Since death has no origin, it cant be negated.



Xelloss said:


> *it does change a lot, basically Tohno need the enemy to have a fated end, while Ryogi need a start.*
> 
> And the rpg is calling you ;_;





skiboydoggy said:


> *Ryougi Shiki's power is actually cutting away the origin of the target, negating their very existence in the first place. Killing is a bit of a misnomer.*
> 
> Although even Tohno Shiki can kill people who are essentially immortal in the first place, as long as he can understand what he's trying to kill. Ciel and Arcueid would be considered immortal by most standards.



That's why Tohno's power counts as death, since he's bringing his target to its end, while Shiki is canceling its start in the first place. So she cant kill death.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

> Ok, you guys just said that it was Tohno who relies on the end point of all things. Ski, I believe said Shiki manipulates the origin of everything, cutting it from existence. Since death has no origin, it cant be negated.



Tohno Shiki eliminates existence while Ryougi Shiki eliminates origins. And death does have an origin, who is the person or thing dying is the origin.



> That's why Tohno's power counts as death, since he's bringing his target to its end, while Shiki is canceling its start in the first place. So she cant kill death.



She does kill them. Fodder enemies, Ghosts, and Araya Souren are sure as hell dead. Slicing the lines is still killing. Stabbing the point of death does everything at once, eliminating you body & soul because the universe corrected the inconsistency. So in short, your very being is erased from the universe.


----------



## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2010)

I must say congrats to everyone arguing for both sides ( for the most part anyway). this is actually one of the most interesting matches I have seen in a long while.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

Shoddragon said:


> I must say congrats to everyone arguing for both sides ( for the most part anyway). this is actually one of the most interesting matches I have seen in a long while.



Considering it got derailed earlier, it's a damn miracle.


----------



## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2010)

well its interesting because you have someone who can supposed erase abstract and other things out of existence vs someone who's bullets never miss and can pretty much kill anything.

I know it go de-railed earlier but still.


----------



## God (Jun 29, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Tohno Shiki eliminates existence while Ryougi Shiki eliminates origins. And death does have an origin, who is the person or thing dying is the origin.



What the hell? Has Tohno ever killed inanimate objects before?

Death, the abstract concept, does not have an origin, therefore she cant kill it.



> She does kill them. Fodder enemies, Ghosts, and Araya Souren are sure as hell dead. Slicing the lines is still killing. Stabbing the point of death does everything at once, eliminating you body & soul because the universe corrected the inconsistency. So in short, your very being is erased from the universe.



Still though, that power depends on the opponent's ability to die, or form.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Cubey said:


> What the hell? Has Tohno ever killed inanimate objects before?
> 
> Death, the abstract concept, does not have an origin, therefore she cant kill it.
> 
> ...



Yes. 

He killed a part of a building. He killed a disease. He even kill a part of the planet.

She actually may be able to, as everything originates from Akasha. 

It's more of erasing their existence. Them dying is just a side effect.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

> What the hell? Has Tohno ever killed inanimate objects before?



Multiple times, such as slicing a bed with his fruit knife and killing the entire hallway of his school in Arc's path when he fought Roa. And killed poison already flowing in Kohaku's body during the Good ending in Hisui's path.



> Death, the abstract concept, does not have an origin, therefore she cant kill it.



MEoDP says she can.



> Still though, that power depends on the opponent's ability to die, or form.



Which is difficult unless you have a great concept of death. The death of human beings isn't the same such as rocks or molecules. Human limitations on the concept of death only has you grasp on things you know vs things you can't understand.



> He even kill a part of the planet.



Technically the Leyline but same difference.


----------



## God (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Yes.
> 
> He killed a part of a building. He killed a disease. He even kill a part of the planet.
> 
> ...



Ok then, although diseases are biological.

So what if she was up against Death from Marvel, which doesn't originate from  Akasha?  I really doubt she could negate her.



basch71 said:


> Multiple times, such as slicing a bed with his fruit knife and killing the entire hallway of his school in Arc's path when he fought Roa. And killed poison already flowing in Kohaku's body during the Good ending in Hisui's path.



Poison is just foreign bacteria and other biological bs that attacks the body. It's cells are living though. But the others are sound feats.



> MEoDP says she can.



Link?

If you mean that the MEoDP justify it, no they dont, since death does not have an origin outside of Nasuverse, where it comes from Akasha.



> Which is difficult unless you have a great concept of death. The death of human beings isn't the same such as rocks or molecules. Human limitations on the concept of death only has you grasp on things you know vs things you can't understand.



I thought the entire point of the MEoDP was to eliminate those limitations. So that you can PERCEIVE death.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Ok then, although diseases are biological.
> 
> So what if she was up against Death from Marvel, which doesn't originate from  Akasha?  I really doubt she could negate her.



I'm wondering if that would fall under equivalency.

Wouldn't erasing Death work since Shiki can erase concepts?


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Yes.
> 
> He killed a part of a building. He killed a disease. He even kill a part of the planet.
> 
> ...



So?

Buildings witter and "die" from age.
Diseases are made out of microbes, which die.
Planets "die" as well, from outer factors.

It's not the same thing as actually killing Death.
If death would be killed and negated, so would the death of death, creating an oxymoron. There can be no death without death.

Also, claiming that death originates from Akasha is just ridiculous and has no place in a discussion. It's just as easy to claim that "the Loving God" created death.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> blub blub blub



Hello, Who are you? You're not Cubey, so I obviously wasn't talking to you. Perhaps you should stop using red herrings and learn how to debate.


----------



## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Ok then, although diseases are biological.
> 
> So what if she was up against Death from Marvel, *which doesn't originate from  Akasha?*  I really doubt she could negate her.
> 
> ...



I thought such a thing would be equalized like haruhi's powers working outside or her own universe and things like that?


----------



## Cypher0120 (Jun 29, 2010)

I think I can liken the MEODP between the two Shiki's to this:

Shiki Tohno's eyes makes sure the eventual death of something happens. Akin to fast-forwarding a tape so that it won't be able to do anything anymore and thus 'dies.'

Ryougi Shiki's eyes doesn't fast forward the tape. She just gets rid of the tape reel in the first place so that the tape can't exist anymore.

Or something like that. I dunno.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Jun 29, 2010)

While I don't think Ryougi Shiki can kill the phenomena known as "death", (Tohno Shiki couldn't kill the phenomena of "TATARI" either,) I believe Nasu has stated that Ryougi Shiki's powers are at the level where she can kill certain futures, so long as their concept is strong enough, bringing up the example of killing a future of Shiki getting gored by Gae Bolg. She should be able to kill the future of her getting hit by the SoK's bullets and dying if that's the case.

Of course, assuming SoK's bullets are actually bullets of course. It's never made clear whether or not they're homing magic cosmic bullets or that you automatically die after he pulls the trigger or what.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

> So what if she was up against Death from Marvel, which doesn't originate from Akasha?  I really doubt she could negate her.



Akasha is still the origin of the universe and Ryougi's 3rd Personality is still linked to Akasha. So unless Death is higher than the universe then it's unlikely.



> If you mean that the MEoDP justify it, no they dont, since death does not have an origin outside of Nasuverse, where it comes from Akasha.



Death is still a universal concept, irregardless of fiction.



> I thought the entire point of the MEoDP was to eliminate those limitations. So that you can PERCEIVE death.



Seeing death is one thing. UNDERSTANDING the concept is a different story. A person's knowledge of death is limited. It's not like you can walk up and slay an omnipotent being. Different rules apply for different things. Tohno Shiki would fry his brain trying to see death in things he doesn't understand. Base Ryougi Shiki would take a while to understand it on the other hand.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Hello, Who are you? You're not Cubey, so I obviously wasn't talking to you. Perhaps you should stop using red herrings and learn how to debate.



You're the person claiming that someone can kill death because he can kill a building.

Maybe you're the one who should learn to debate and keep your posts relevant?


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Seeing death is one thing. UNDERSTANDING the concept is a different story. A person's knowledge of death is limited. It's not like you can walk up and slay an omnipotent being. Different rules apply for different things. Tohno Shiki would fry his brain trying to see death in things he doesn't understand. Base Ryougi Shiki would take a while to understand it on the other hand.



I think Ryougi Shiki doesn't have to understand the death.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> You're the person claiming that someone can kill death because he can kill a building.
> 
> Maybe you're the one who should learn to debate and keep your posts relevant?



Hm. I see you need to learn to read first.



			
				Cubey said:
			
		

> What the hell? Has *Tohno* ever killed inanimate objects before?





			
				me said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> *He* killed a part of a building. He killed a disease. He even kill a part of the planet.






> Death, the abstract concept, does not have an origin, therefore *she* cant kill it.





> *She* actually may be able to, as everything originates from Akasha.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Jun 29, 2010)

Tohno SHIKI hasn't killed inanimate objects before. 

Tohno Shiki though.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Hm. I see you need to learn to read first.



Death is, like whoever it was that pointed it out, a universal concept which did not originate from Akasha. Claiming so in a battle with a being from another comic universe is hilariously stupid. According to Preacherverse, everything was created by the loving God, hence akasha was also created by him.
Or maybe we should keep such statements which only applies to the specific comic in question to their respective universes?

Killing inanimate objects and then making the leap to killing death is ridiculous.
Also, would it be hard to destroy/"kill" inanimate objects you mean?

You don't even need any super powers to do it.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> I think Ryougi Shiki doesn't have to understand the death.



Actually she still has to understand it. She took a while before she could kill magecraft mid battle. And she couldn't slice Araya easily since his lines were very faint.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Death is, like whoever it was that pointed it out, a universal concept which did not originate from Akasha. Claiming so in a battle with a being from another comic universe is hilariously stupid. According to Preacherverse, everything was created by the loving God, hence akasha was also created by him.
> Or maybe we should keep such statements which only applies to the specific comic in question to their respective universes?
> 
> Killing inanimate objects and then making the leap to killing death is ridiculous.
> ...



Akasha is multiversal. Death is a universal concept.


----------



## God (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> I'm wondering if that would fall under equivalency.
> 
> Wouldn't erasing Death work since Shiki can erase concepts?



Concepts in the Nasuverse, which come from Akasha, whereas in other fictions they dont. I really dont know how that can be applied to matches at all actually, or if it can even be equalized, but ask Mike about it as I'm open to the possibility of it 

For an easier assessment, has she ever actually destroyed concepts?



Shoddragon said:


> I thought such a thing would be equalized like haruhi's powers working outside or her own universe and things like that?



I have no idea how to equalize that since it's not only a matter of Shiki, but the concept on which the attack is on. Possible, though I really dont know.



basch71 said:


> Akasha is still the origin of the universe and Ryougi's 3rd Personality is still linked to Akasha. So unless Death is higher than the universe then it's unlikely.
> 
> Death is still a universal concept, irregardless of fiction.



The point though, is whether or not it has an origin. In Nasuverse it does, but it doesn't in real life so she can beat her own death, but not ours? There's a conundrum.



> Seeing death is one thing. UNDERSTANDING the concept is a different story. A person's knowledge of death is limited. It's not like you can walk up and slay an omnipotent being. Different rules apply for different things. Tohno Shiki would fry his brain trying to see death in things he doesn't understand. Base Ryougi Shiki would take a while to understand it on the other hand.



I dont think base Shiki could do it, but Void probably can.


----------



## Cypher0120 (Jun 29, 2010)

Cubey said:


> For an easier assessment, has she ever actually destroyed concepts?



Well, the concept of distance between her and target. Then there's the part where she was 'absorbed' by Araya and taken...somewhere and she cut her way out through self-suggestion. I think. Actually, that part confused me so i can't be too sure.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Concepts in the Nasuverse, which come from Akasha, whereas in other fictions they dont. I really dont know how that can be applied to matches at all actually, or if it can even be equalized, but ask Mike about it as I'm open to the possibility of it
> 
> For an easier assessment, has she ever actually destroyed concepts?



It would be strange if her powers didn't work in matches. I was thinking all powers would work or else it would be pretty stupid. "Hey look! No chakra here! Naruto you're screwed. again." 


Let me look through the novel and movies. I'll try to find something for you.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Jun 29, 2010)

Void Shiki has killed distance before, giving her the ability to teleport. 

Base Shiki has also killed her own fear for maximum badassitude.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Akasha is multiversal. Death is a universal concept.





Yeah, so akasha is dicking around in the Marvel multiverse?
Is Askasha dicking around in the DC multiverse?
In any other multiverse outside of type-moon?

Of course not, the notion is retarded,

Do you even know the difference between the meaning of the word universal and universe? Death applies to every fiction as well as the real world, Akasha does not.

Stop failing.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

> For an easier assessment, has she ever actually destroyed concepts?



During the 2nd fight against Araya Souren, Void Shiki killed the distance between her and Araya and completely blitzed him. She never done something on that level before.



> The point though, is whether or not it has an origin. In Nasuverse it does, but it doesn't in real life so she can beat her own death, but not ours? There's a conundrum.



Then put it like this. MEoDP is her ability which allows her to erase things in the universe but with death as a side effect. Meaning guys like Goku can still get one shotted by someone with MEoDP irregardless how durable he is. 



> I dont think base Shiki could do it, but Void probably can.



Void Shiki has no limitations, definitely. Her whole statement about being able to destroy reality easily in the Epilogue is more believable based on how her powers work and what impossible feats she performed.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Yeah, so akasha is dicking around in the Marvel multiverse?
> Is Askasha dicking around in the DC multiverse?
> In any other multiverse outside of type-moon?
> 
> ...



Why are you bringing the real world into this?

So you take someone out of their universe and their power automatically stops working? 

You're the only one failing here.


----------



## Cypher0120 (Jun 29, 2010)

standard practice


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

> Yeah, so akasha is dicking around in the Marvel multiverse?Is Askasha dicking around in the DC multiverse?
> 
> In any other multiverse outside of type-moon?Of course not, the notion is retarded,





Akasha is a multiversal phenomena in Nasuverse dumbass. In a match up, it's powers still apply. LURK MOAR



> Do you even know the difference between the meaning of the word universal and universe? Death applies to every fiction as well as the real world, Akasha does not.
> 
> Stop failing.



Lern2read & LURK MOAR


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 29, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> Void Shiki has killed distance before, giving her the ability to teleport.



I think I read somewhere that actually she didn't do that but I can't remember where


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 29, 2010)

this

this

Yep here it is.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> I think I read somewhere that actually she didn't do that but I can't remember where



It's the Beast Lair forums. The translation was "Ryougi Shiki with only one step covered a space of four meters"

Which is impossible even for a tall person.

Then later, she was able to appear outside the building and cut Araya Souren when he appeared there. True she jumped out, but it would have taken at least a few seconds for her to reach the bottom and get up to reach up. She was able to cut him pretty much the second he appeared. I'm sure sticknig your hand out takes less than a second. That was the only action he took before Shiki sliced him.


It's probable she is killing the distance.
Also, this has me on the ground:



> The katakana was swung.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 29, 2010)

Gr?hf said:


> this
> 
> this
> 
> Yep here it is.



Damn, that was a while back.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> It's probable she is killing the distance.



Probably but that looks a lot like Soujiro's Shukuchi.

You can't assure she was killing the distance.


----------



## God (Jun 29, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Well, the concept of distance between her and target. Then there's the part where she was 'absorbed' by Araya and taken...somewhere and she cut her way out through self-suggestion. I think. Actually, that part confused me so i can't be too sure.



Oh right, I forgot about that.



Crimson King said:


> It would be strange if her powers didn't work in matches. I was thinking all powers would work or else it would be pretty stupid. "Hey look! No chakra here! Naruto you're screwed. again."
> 
> 
> Let me look through the novel and movies. I'll try to find something for you.



Lol. But I'm not saying her powers shouldn't work, just what extent they go to though, and not a no-limits fallacy. For concepts where there are no beginnings for in other verses, there is a beginning in Akasha, but that only applies in her fiction since it's Nasuverse death that has a beginning but not anything else.



skiboydoggy said:


> Void Shiki has killed distance before, giving her the ability to teleport.
> 
> Base Shiki has also killed her own fear for maximum badassitude.



Right, forgot.



basch71 said:


> During the 2nd fight against Araya Souren, Void Shiki killed the distance between her and Araya and completely blitzed him. She never done something on that level before.



Oh, ok.



> Then put it like this. MEoDP is her ability which allows her to erase things in the universe but with death as a side effect. Meaning guys like Goku can still get one shotted by someone with MEoDP irregardless how durable he is.



I know already. It's way hax, that's the point.



> Void Shiki has no limitations, definitely. Her whole statement about being able to destroy reality easily in the Epilogue is more believable based on how her powers work and what impossible feats she performed.



Agreed.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Probably but that looks a lot like Soujiro's Shukuchi.
> 
> You can't assure she was killing the distance.



IIRC it's the mvoe that makes him invisible right? 

This is just her taking one step though. Even if I did the splits and tried to jump, I wouldn't cover 4 meters with one step.


There's also the part where she was able to get to Araya in the Garden. 

At most sticking your hand out would take a second. Shiki was able to reach him from the 10th floor and cut him.

She was already badly wounded and didn't die from the jump.


----------



## Cypher0120 (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm just looking at CK's sig. 

Air, intent, and time?


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> IIRC it's the mvoe that makes him invisible right?
> 
> This is just her taking one step though. Even if I did the splits and tried to jump, I wouldn't cover 4 meters with one step.



The wiki has a good explanation and this is only the first stage of Shukuchi.

*Soujiro's Shukuchi:* This utilizes such powerful speed that, to an observer, it appears that the distance between the two fighters has shrunk.




> There's also the part where she was able to get to Araya in the Garden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This part seems more like Precog than her killing the distance.

It even says she jumps.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> The wiki has a good explanation and this is only the first stage of Shukuchi.
> 
> *Soujiro's Shukuchi:* This utilizes such powerful speed that, to an observer, it appears that the distance between the two fighters has shrunk.
> 
> ...



That sounds more like optical illusion.


She still would need to get down to him though. He disappeared in front of her before she jumped down the building.

And if Shiki has precog, she just got alot more powerful.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> That sounds more like optical illusion.



He is just so fast that it seems he only took one step and he already is where you are, and that is only the first stage.

not even Kenshin could see him in the final stage.



> She still would need to get down to him though. He disappeared in front of her before she jumped down the building.
> 
> And if Shiki has precog, she just got alot more powerful.



Don't know about that.

But like the interviews of Nasu say if she had precog she wouldn't have problems against servants which she has because IIRC she can't beat them.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> He is just so fast that it seems he only took one step and he already is where you are, and that is only the first stage.
> 
> not even Kenshin could see him in the final stage.
> 
> ...



The key word here is seems. That doesn't mean he only took one step.


I would say the main problem with servants is that they're too strong for her because she's restricted to a human body. Sure she could kill them, but they can kill her as well, and they have more ways of doing that. Even Fake Assassin could kill her with Tsubame Gaeshi as it's three cuts at once, and she could probably at most death with one of them.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 29, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> The key word here is seems. That doesn't mean he only took one step.
> 
> 
> I would say the main problem with servants is that they're too strong for her because she's restricted to a human body. Sure she could kill them, but they can kill her as well, and they have more ways of doing that. Even Fake Assassin could kill her with Tsubame Gaeshi as it's three cuts at once, and she could probably at most death with one of them.




I agree but this is more proof because just imagine if she could actually kill the distance that in a fight against a servant would give her the edge and with her power she would destroy them with ease too.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 29, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> I agree but this is more proof because just imagine if she could actually kill the distance that in a fight against a servant would give her the edge and with her power she would destroy them with ease too.



Again, there's the limitation of her human body. Servants can move and react many times faster than her. Even if she can see their attacks coming, she can do nothing about it if she can't move fast enough to stop it.

And of course, when she swings her weapon at them, they can avoid it due ot being much faster.


----------



## Rene (Jun 30, 2010)

Wasn't it stated that MEoDP would be overloaded if they killed powerful concepts such as Noble Phantasms, even traced Noble Phantasms?


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Rene said:


> Wasn't it stated that MEoDP would be overloaded if they killed powerful concepts such as Noble Phantasms, even traced Noble Phantasms?



For Tohno Shiki yes. Ryougi Shiki doesn't have that limitation.


----------



## Riverlia (Jun 30, 2010)

> Wasn't it stated that MEoDP would be overloaded if they killed powerful concepts such as Noble Phantasms, even traced Noble Phantasms?


nope, fannon at best, no official statement. 

'Ignoring point of overload' was mentioned by Nasu in Shiki vs Shirou, but it's more likely due to the number (there's no point saying Shiki will be the winner if he die right off the bat or after only a few projected NPs, he'd just say Shiki has no chance in such cases), and 'overload' happen to both sides, not one (as in, the match also ignore Shirou frying his circuits by projecting NP). 

Somehow ppl start to interpret it as 'Tohno automatically die when he try to kill even a single NP'


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> nope, nothing of that effect was mentioned. Overload was mentioned in Shiki vs Shirou, but it's more likely due to the number, and 'overload' happen to both sides, not one. Somehow ppl start to interpret it as 'Tohno automatically die when he try to kill even a single NP'
> Fannon at best, no official statement



However Word of God says Tohno Shiki will totaly own Shiro in his prime (Arm + Broken Phantasm) if they ever fought. And Shiro traces Noble Phantasms for weapons. And Shiki still wins.


----------



## Riverlia (Jun 30, 2010)

> However Word of God says Tohno Shiki will totaly own Shiro in his prime (Arm + Broken Phantasm) if they ever fought. And Shiro traces Noble Phantasms for weapons. And Shiki still wins.


I think we are talking about the same piece of Words of God
Arara derailment derailment


----------



## Rene (Jun 30, 2010)

> "If powers are at max and we ignore the point of self-destruction caused from overflow then Shiki will win. No matter how much Shirou makes swords, Shiki will keep 'killing' them. It's a different story if it's possible to use a 'Mana Burst' like Excalibur."



So with overflow it's a draw? As Shirou kills himself when he uses Archer's arm and that's pretty much Shirou's strongest form.

It's obvious there was some penalty for Shiki destroying the weapons that Shirou traced. Wasn't there a similar argument being made with Shiki's theoretical capability of destroying the moon? Since Shiki needs to understand the thing that he's going to kill using his eyes and there are just somethings humans won't be capable of understanding.

It's like saying Shiki could kill Avalon.

Anyways, not gonna get into this argument and I've seen the shitstorms that Fate characters vs Tsukihime characters can turn into. :<


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 30, 2010)

SOK
 Saint of Killers weapons were forged from the Angel of Death,'s sword?, and then used to kill the Devil and God off his throne. God on his throne is supposedly "omnipotent", but off it he is no higher than Marvel's mumbo jumbo  Universal wtv. I could be mistaken there though, as I don't remember Preacher exactly. In any case, the reason that is important is because Jesse, with the word of God, a power Above God off his throne, was able to MAKE SOK BULLETS MISS. This proves SOK can miss his targets, and it's just a question of having the required wtv' to do so.  

Ryogi
I don't know too much about Ryogi Shiki, as I ain't someone who reads any of dem notes and just played some of the games + watched the animes/read the mangas, but  if Ryogi is challening the power of an Akasha, why would it mean she can defeat anything under the sun just because?  Further, even if da author goes and states she can, well, fine, but what's the strongest stuff that exist in her own verse, and what's the strongest or wildest stuff she has taken down? To kill a concept is one thing, but to kill SOK seems like another all together. I mean, while his guns embody death, I don't remember wtf he embodies. It's probably death, but I don't remember preacher exactly. But even if it's death, that saint done and killed death as well, so  

-------
 comparing "omnipotents" = _All you can have to confirm their existence in the end is a statement they are omnipontent, coupled with 'feats' superior to that which is below; that is to say, the non-omnipotents. But then, as Dem fools below weren't the real shit to begin with anyway, all ya gots when it's all said and done is the word of the author through dem chars. Author>>>>> anything
------------------------

Fight
I was thinking Ryogi could perhaps make SOK miss, but less sure if she could kill him. Further, though it's not being brought up, I was figuring SOK insane raw strength might factor into the fight if it gets into close range. SOK kicked a tank away...


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

> Further, even if da author goes and states she can, well, fine, but what's the strongest stuff that exist in her own verse, and what's the strongest or wildest stuff she has taken down?



The strongest person she took down was a Magus named Araya Souren, mainly do to him having such a long ass life span, the lines of death that were shown were faint. 

The strongest beings in Nasuverse are the Aristoteles (aka Ultimate Ones, aka the Types). MEoDP can't perceive their deaths due to them having no concept of death.



> Beings that don't mix well with the (common sense) rules of this planet; no mind, no concepts comparable with "death", hence "destroyed" ones haven't truly "died". Will continue to operate until objective is complete.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> The strongest person she took down was a Magus named Araya Souren, mainly do to him having such a long ass life span, the lines of death that were shown were faint.
> 
> The strongest beings in Nasuverse are the Aristoteles (aka Ultimate Ones, aka the Types). MEoDP can't perceive their deaths due to them having no concept of death.




His origin was also "stillness". And he had the remains of a saint in his left arm.

Tohno Shiki can't see them. Ryougi Shiki probably can due to her eyes being better and able to see the lines of death without having to understand them first.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

What a bunch of failing fucktards.

Shit, you bastards are really fucking stupid.

You can't fucking claim that Akasha has created death when death is something found in every fucking fiction out there, with a mutltitude of origins. Claiming Death was created by Akasha is contradicted by the fact that Death was created by the loving God, like everything else. Hence, Akasha has no fucking authority over anything outside the shitty type-moon fiction, and only a fucking retard would claim this.

Get the fuck out and take your dumbass fucking fail with you.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> SOK
> Saint of Killers weapons were forged from the Angel of Death,'s sword?, and then used to kill the Devil and God off his throne. God on his throne is supposedly "omnipotent", but off it he is no higher than Marvel's mumbo jumbo  Universal wtv. I could be mistaken there though, as I don't remember Preacher exactly. In any case, the reason that is important is because Jesse, with the word of God, a power Above God off his throne, was able to MAKE SOK BULLETS MISS. This proves SOK can miss his targets, and it's just a question of having the required wtv' to do so.
> 
> Ryogi
> ...



Wrong, Jesse never got the Saint to miss.
He told him to walk away however.

Also, SoK tanked a nuke, without as much as a scratch.


----------



## Knight (Jun 30, 2010)

Come on can't we leave the name calling out of the thread?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I see this becoming one of the worst threads ever



I'm a prophet


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Knight said:


> Come on can't we leave the name calling out of the thread?



Apparently not, when people are trying to pat someone on the head in a pathetic attempt to use master suppression techniques, shit will hit the fan.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> What a bunch of failing fucktards.
> 
> Shit, you bastards are really fucking stupid.
> 
> ...





lern2read & LURK MOAR

And nobody is claiming death originates from Akasha, genius. It's the origin of the universe and a place where all souls go after they die. It's power spreads through a multiverse.

Stop failing and do some research like the rest of us. Your opinions don't mean shit without cold hard facts.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> lern2read & LURK MOAR
> 
> And nobody is claiming death originates from Akasha, genius. It's the origin of the universe and a place where all souls go after they die. It's power spreads through a multiverse.
> 
> Stop failing and do some research like the rest of us. Your opinions don't mean shit without cold hard facts.



Cold hard facts?

So Death in Marvelverse originated from Akasha?
Death in DCverse originated from Akasha?

Because that's what your claiming; one entitity from a shitty fiction his claimed to over-rule other fictions even though it contradicts them.

This is complete BS, and claiming Shiki would automatically hold domain over SoK because Akasha created death in type-moon multiverse is retarded.

I'll just turn it around and claim that Akasha was created by the loving god, and hence any authority dispersed by Akasha is automatically below the authority of the loving God.

Don't use contradicting shit in a debate is what I'm saying.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Cold hard facts?
> 
> So Death in Marvelverse originated from Akasha?
> Death in DCverse originated from Akasha?
> ...



The pot calling the kettle black. 

If you don't like the fact that there's fictional characters out there that can out h4x your favorite characters then tough shit.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH I DUNNO WAT IM TALKING ABOUT



standard practice


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Except she clearly can't.


----------



## Shoddragon (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Cold hard facts?
> 
> *So Death in Marvelverse originated from Akasha?
> Death in DCverse originated from Akasha?*
> ...



its called universal equivalence. its made so that nothing will majorly hinder an actual battle. otherwise haruhi's powers do nothing outside of her own universe nor do shaman king hao's and other people as such. you are applying one thing and attempting to suggest that because it doesn't apply to the STORY and PLOT of another, power simply don't work.

noone is saying akashi is the origin of death in marvel or DC, but in a battle, it would be equalized as such. JUST for the purposes of battle, so a character can fight at his or her or its maximum capabilities. 

now you can understand why debate on MvC is so shitty. they keep these things out and they turn more into wankfests and shit.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> standard practice



Yeah, I read that, you fucking dumbass meathead, and what the fuck has that got to do with this?

NOTHING.

If one thing contradicts another, you don't use either.
Or we could sit around here and argue about who's power over-rides who's.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> I still don't know what I'm talking about.




Ability Overlap/Universe Equivalence:

This is where things become even more unclear.

I still see the odd new member say something along the lines of "that won't work because they have no reiatsu/reishi/chakra/ki/yoki/spiritual power/etc..."

To make it fair for all combatants, any ability that they have which is prevalent upon their opponent having the same type of power, that everyone in their universe has, is still usable. You may wonder "why is that?"

It's simple, not only does it give everyone a fighting chance, but it's also because all of the above mentioned forms of power are at least somewhat based on the same principle. Spirit.

Also, just because one character lives in a universe where there is no magic, that doesn't mean that all magical attacks from the other combatant aren't usable.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Shoddragon said:


> its called universal equivalence. its made so that nothing will majorly hinder an actual battle. otherwise haruhi's powers do nothing outside of her own universe nor do shaman king hao's and other people as such. you are applying one thing and attempting to suggest that because it doesn't apply to the STORY and PLOT of another, power simply don't work.
> 
> noone is saying akashi is the origin of death in marvel or DC, but in a battle, it would be equalized as such. JUST for the purposes of battle, so a character can fight at his or her or its maximum capabilities.
> 
> now you can understand why debate on MvC is so shitty. they keep these things out and they turn more into wankfests and shit.



How the hell can you fucking claim that two contradicting things are in play at the same time?

That's fucking retarded.

The shitheads in this thread is claiming that the shitty type-moon universe automatically over-rides Preacherverse, because hurr-durr, akasha is multiversal and thus has created death, even though it contradicts the origins of SoK.

Use equal powers if you have to, but don't fucking try to over-wank one side with it.


----------



## Shoddragon (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> How the hell can you fucking claim that two contradicting things are in play at the same time?
> 
> That's fucking retarded.
> 
> ...




what two contradicting things are you actually talking about per say?


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Wrong, Jesse never got the Saint to miss.
> He told him to walk away however.
> 
> Also, SoK tanked a nuke, without as much as a scratch.



...
Are you definetly sure Jesse made him walk away and not miss? Because damn, when I made the fight, I was banking on that memory. With that, in that I thought SOK had been made to miss, I felt the winner was uncertain.  Dammit, are you sure it was just making him walk away?


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Shoddragon said:


> what two contradicting things are you actually talking about per say?



Akasha created Death, and it works this and that way.
The Loving God has created death, and it works in another way.

How can you claim one sides automatically over-rides the other?

Derr, SoK power doesn't work, because Akasha's powers over-rides the Loving Gods.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> I still don't know what I'm talking about.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> ...
> Are you definetly sure Jesse made him walk away and not miss? Because damn, when I made the fight, I was banking on that memory. With that, in that I thought SOK had been made to miss, I felt the winner was uncertain.  Dammit, are you sure it was just making him walk away?



Yeah, he said walk away, and the Saint complied. I've read Preacher like four times.

The next time they met, he said something about he'd shoot him before he'd even open his mouth.

Also, since the guns never miss, Jesse would have to hold domain over inanimate objects and command the guns themselves not to miss.

He could tell the Sok not to fire them, though.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Akasha created Death, and it works this and that way.
> The Loving God has created death, and it works in another way.
> 
> How can you claim one sides automatically over-rides the other?
> ...



Looks like someone's butthurt. 

Not that i'm surprised, or care for that matter.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

hahaha this is a new one hahaha


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 30, 2010)

@Ck
Did you just find that image, or did you use coral or some other more covinent progam to make it?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Except she clearly can't.



The bullet that kills vs a woman who sees and touches death, and enough h4x to destroy reality and concepts. Hmmm....


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> @Ck
> Did you just find that image, or did you use coral or some other more covinent progam to make it?



I found that one a few years ago. I just remembered I had it.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)




----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> The bullet that kills vs a woman who sees and touches death, and enough h4x to destroy reality and concepts. Hmmm....



Nothing about the versus but you are making the SoK look like he was some random dude which he isn't.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Looks like someone's butthurt.
> 
> Not that i'm surprised, or care for that matter.



Except you're backing the side contradicting the equivalent rule.

The Saint's guns never miss, this is a rule set in stone from Preacherverse, created by an omnipotent being. Hence, it's in play.

That's when dumbass up there's starts to claim that they would miss, because Akasha holds domain over death and for some reason, Akasha's power automatically overrides the loving God's rules.

Why the hell would one side be able to cancel out things from the other side, but not vice versa?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

Gr?hf said:


> Nothing about the versus but you are making the SoK look like he was some random dude which he isn't.



I have no problem with SoK, I just hate fail logic.


----------



## Shoddragon (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Except you're backing the side contradicting the equivalent rule.
> 
> The Saint's guns never miss, this is a rule set in stone from Preacherverse, created by an *omnipotent being*. Hence, it's in play.
> 
> ...



like I said before. you need to prove this.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Except you're backing the side contradicting the equivalent rule.
> 
> The Saint's guns never miss, this is a rule set in stone from Preacherverse, created by an omnipotent being. Hence, it's in play.
> 
> ...



Because that's how OBD works genius. Don't like it? Tough.

And SoK ain't God, so stop wanking.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> The bullet that kills vs a woman who sees and touches death, and enough h4x to destroy reality and concepts. Hmmm....



The woman who sees and touches death, versus death itself.
But derr, it's ok, because death has different properties in type-moon verse than in Preacherverse, so type-moon would automatically win.

But it's ok, because Preacherverse contradicts that, so they automatically win.


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Because that's how OBD works genius. Don't like it? Tough.
> 
> And SoK ain't God, so stop wanking.



Wrong, you're just a butthurt type-moon hentain wanker who uses a logical fallacy to wank one side while denying the properties of the other.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> I clearly don't know what i'm talking about but I'll fruitlessly try anyway



The story of your life.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> blub blub blub


Ah, you want to go into the whole "universe" thing. ok.

Akasha is multiversal. "God" is universal.

There you go.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Wrong, you're just a butthurt type-moon hentain wanker who uses a logical fallacy to wank one side while denying the properties of the other.





I like my new pic.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

You know this fight is interesting.

here

and this post:

here

And he lost only to this dude:

here

And I have a question would Shiki be able to kill the LHW?


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Ah, you want to go into the whole "universe" thing. ok.
> 
> Akasha is multiversal. "God" is universal.
> 
> There you go.



No, God is multiversal if a multiverse exists.
It falls under "Alpha and Omega", the beginning and the end.

God has created everything, including other dimensions.
Heaven and Hell for instances, are examples of other dimensions.
In a multiverse, every reality is a separate dimension existing alongside each other.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> You know this fight is interesting.
> 
> here
> 
> ...




If she's in Void mode, yes.

Not sure for normal. Ryoma said the LHW can be overcome. And if they have a beginning, Shiki techically should be able to kill them.

Should would get killed in a fight of course, as Z and Tenchi can planet bust and is faster.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

Gr?hf said:


> You know this fight is interesting.
> 
> here
> 
> ...



No, cuz IIRC the LHW are multiversal. You might want to ask Mike on this one. He knows Tenchi better than I do.


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> No, God is multiversal if a multiverse exists.
> It falls under "Alpha and Omega", the beginning and the end.
> 
> God has created everything, including other dimensions.
> ...



So God created pocket dimensions. Still not a multiverse.

Akasha on the other hand, created everything withing Nasuverse. Word of God also has every ending in all the VN to be canon, just that they happen in different universes. 

There's also the Gem sword Rin used, which was pulling prana from different universes.

And then there's Zelretch who travels through different universes.

That makes Akasha multiversal.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> If she's in Void mode, yes.
> 
> Not sure for normal. Ryoma said the LHW can be overcome. And if they have a beginning, Shiki techically should be able to kill them.
> 
> Should would get killed in a fight of course, as Z and Tenchi can planet bust and is faster.





basch71 said:


> No, cuz IIRC the LHW are multiversal. You might want to ask Mike on this one. He knows Tenchi better than I do.



Ok but if SoK won against Z why is it that he can't beat Shiki?

I really haven't been paying attention


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Ok but if SoK won against Z why is it that he can't beat Shiki?
> 
> I really haven't been paying attention



I think it's because Z doesn't have the brute force to kill SoK and his LHW can be overcome by enough power.

Shiki can win because she does not rely on power, but hax.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> I think it's because Z doesn't have the brute force to kill SoK and his LHW can be overcome by enough power.
> 
> Shiki can win because she does not rely on power, but hax.



Ok but what about the speed issue Z is FTL and SoK still won.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> I think it's because Z doesn't have the brute force to kill SoK and his LHW can be overcome by enough power.
> 
> Shiki can win because she does not rely on power, but hax.



Nasuverse run..BREATHES h4x.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

The entire argument is that Death in Nasuverse has an origin, while death in Preacherverse has not.

They are clearly two different entities then, and the properties of one does not apply to the other. Or maybe death in nasuverse is a nuke-level durability cowboy with a pair of walker-colts, walking around a shooting people?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

Gr?hf said:


> Ok but what about the speed issue Z is FTL and SoK still won.



It's the bullets. It's like the gun version of MEoDP but with less h4x. Ryougi's a little more flexible thanks to Akasha.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

And another thing is this post:

here

Only a true Omnipotent can overcome SoK now god die because he wasn't in his throne which makes him Omnipotent.

That is if Ryoma is right.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> It's the bullets. It's like the gun version of MEoDP but with less h4x. Ryougi's a little more flexible thanks to Akasha.



Ok FTL bullets how is Shiki going to react to that?


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> And another thing is this post:
> 
> here
> 
> ...



If you have to be on a throne to be omnipotent, then you aren't omnipotent in the first place.

Ryoma was just answering if TOAA could beat SoK anyways.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> If you have to be on a throne to be omnipotent, then you aren't omnipotent in the first place.
> 
> Ryoma was just answering if TOAA could beat SoK anyways.



For what I read the throne makes you omnipotent hence out of the throne = killed by SoK in the Throne Sok get's killed.

and that is my point of Only a true Omnipotent can overcome SoK with the TOAA question.

And you still have the FTL bullets well that is if they are FTL but they have to be because he beat Z who is FTL.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Ok FTL bullets how is Shiki going to react to that?


here


> Speed: Peak human, though he can evidently draw his guns at superhuman speeds.



I can't find anythnig about bullets being FTL.

And if he's only peak human, Shiki has the speed advantage.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> It's the bullets. It's like the gun version of MEoDP but with less h4x. Ryougi's a little more flexible thanks to Akasha.



Less hax?

Yeah, because bullets that *never* miss and kills *anything* isn't enough hax to take out 99% of everything.


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

Wow some people in this thread are confused.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> For what I read the throne makes you omnipotent hence out of the throne = killed by SoK in the Throne Sok get's killed.
> 
> and that is my point of Only a true Omnipotent can overcome SoK with the TOAA question.



IF you have to sit on it, it probably makes you nigh-omnipotent as best. Like the infinity gauntlet.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> here
> 
> 
> I can't find anythnig about bullets being FTL.
> ...



then why did he beat Z who is FTL? 

meh I agree I am confused.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Less hax?
> 
> Yeah, because bullets that *never* miss and kills *anything* isn't enough hax to take out 99% of everything.



Turn intangible. Bullets can't hit you.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

Gr?hf said:


> And another thing is this post:
> 
> here
> 
> ...



God himself isn't omnipotent BUT the Throne IS. It's CIS on God's part.



> Ok FTL bullets how is Shiki going to react to that?



She fucks with reality and blitzes him before he can fire. The whole "killing the distance" bit is probable thanks to her h4x.

Base Shiki would get shot.


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Turn intangible. Bullets can't hit you.



They still kill you. That's how the powers work, since he's an agent of death.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> then why did he beat Z who is FTL?
> 
> meh I agree I am confused.




I'm guessing it's because Z can't do anything about the bullets that will kill him and he doesn't have enough power to kill SoK.

Speed is important, but it isn't everything.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> For what I read the throne makes you omnipotent hence out of the throne = killed by SoK in the Throne Sok get's killed.
> 
> and that is my point of Only a true Omnipotent can overcome SoK with the TOAA question.
> 
> And you still have the FTL bullets well that is if they are FTL but they have to be because he beat Z who is FTL.



Exactly.

God, in his physical form is just part of God. He needs to be connected to the throne to access the full spectrum of his powers, and change the absolute rules he himself has created.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> God himself isn't omnipotent BUT the Throne IS. It's CIS on God's part.



Ok so how is Shiki going to deal with bullets that can only be tanked by Omnipotents?



> She fucks with reality and blitzes him before he can fire. The whole "killing the distance" bit is probable thanks to her h4x.
> 
> Base Shiki would get shot.



And I still don't think se can "kill the distance"


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> She fucks with reality and blitzes him before he can fire. The whole "killing the distance" bit is probable thanks to her h4x.
> 
> Base Shiki would get shot.



The concept of distance needs to have an origin for that to work. It doesnt though, unless this fight is taking place in Ryogi's world where its origin is Akasha.

Also, Grahf explained why she didnt actually kill distance.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> I'm guessing it's because Z can't do anything about the bullets that will kill him and he doesn't have enough power to kill SoK.
> 
> Speed is important, but it isn't everything.



I agree in some parts but supersonic to FTL is a huge gap in speed.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Less hax?
> 
> Yeah, because bullets that *never* miss and kills *anything* isn't enough hax to take out 99% of everything.



Her MEoDP kills on a deeper level than just physical beings. She can kill improbable shit like concept through origins in things.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Her MEoDP kills on a deeper level than just physical beings. She can kill improbable shit like concept through origins in things.



And the SoK can kill unkillable eternals through extreme hax, such as God and the Devil.

Also, to kill something with that, it has to have an origin.
God doesn't have an origin.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> I agree in some parts but supersonic to FTL is a huge gap in speed.



You'll have to ask EM then. I'm not too familiar with that.


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

About Z, it was probably because Z had no way of killing SoK. Whereas all SoK had to do was shoot and it would one-shot Z.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

> And I still don't think se can "kill the distance"





> The concept of distance needs to have an origin for that to work. It doesnt though, unless this fight is taking place in Ryogi's world where its origin is Akasha.
> 
> Also, Grahf explained why she didnt actually kill distance. Today 04:08 PM



I said it was probable. 



> Ok so how is Shiki going to deal with bullets that can only be tabked by Omnipotents?



Meaning only omnipotents can tank it. She can still kill the bullet itself. It's in her power.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> You'll have to ask EM then. I'm not too familiar with that.



Ok, because this are the victories that SoK has:

- Dark Schneider (Bastard!!) 
- Haruhi Suzumiya 
- Vegito (Dragon Ball Z) 
- Z (Tenchi Muyo!) 

Now put Shiki against them and she won't be able to beat any of them.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

She could probably kill Haruhi.

She loses to the others due to speed difference.

Speed is not an issue here though.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

Cubey said:


> About Z, it was probably because Z had no way of killing SoK. Whereas all SoK had to do was shoot and it would one-shot Z.



I see, so the dude just shoots and done deal.



basch71 said:


> Meaning only omnipotents can tank it. She can still kill the bullet itself. It's in her power.



This is the issue saying she can kill the bullet.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> And the SoK can kill unkillable eternals through extreme hax, such as God and the Devil.
> 
> Also, to kill something with that, it has to have an origin.
> God doesn't have an origin.



MEoDP allows you to kill immortals.

And if God didn't have an origin then he never existed.


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm sensing no-limits fallacy here.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> MEoDP allows you to kill immortals.
> 
> *And if God didn't have an origin then he never existed*.



How so?

I mean how do you know this?


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## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> MEoDP allows you to kill immortals.
> 
> And if God didn't have an origin then he never existed.



God always existed, he is beyond time and space.
Everything originates from God, since he is the beginning and the end.
Or well, he would've been the end, if he hadn't been killed.

He even states he created humans because he was lonely and wanted to be loved.


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> I see, so the dude just shoots and done deal.



Yes. He cannot shoot his guns without inflicting a sure-fire fatal wound on someone. As Z was the only one, there it hit him.

It's like Gae Bolg without the causality manipulation and intead of canceling regen, it just kills you straight-up.



basch71 said:


> MEoDP allows you to kill immortals.
> 
> *And if God didn't have an origin then he never existed.*



Not true. Some things are just always there. Like concepts such as time. And for that reason, Shiki's powers will not work on them, unless ofc it's Void Shiki.


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## AfterGlow (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> She could probably kill Haruhi.
> 
> She loses to the others due to speed difference.
> 
> Speed is not an issue here though.



Except the speed of the bullets is an issue.

She would have to cut the bullets before they hit, meaning she would have FTL reflexes and speeds to match SoK spamming bullets that are fast enough to hit FTL characters.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

> This is the issue saying she can kill the bullet.



She gone as far as killing magecraft, which is technically impossible. Or another impossible feat with the MEoDP for example is Tohno Shiki killing the Leyline in Ciel's route or killed off Roa's possession of Akiha in Kohaku's route.



> I'm sensing no-limits fallacy here.



Ryougi Shiki is a walking no-limits fallacy. I'm not gonna deny that.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> She gone as far as killing magecraft, which is technically impossible. Or another impossible feat with the MEoDP for example is Tohno Shiki killing the Leyline in Ciel's route or killed off Roa's possession of Akiha in Kohaku's route.



Ok but this is a bullet that never miss and kills anything ( and I think it has feats to support that claim) that > anything shiki has killed so far.




> Ryougi Shiki is a walking no-limits fallacy. I'm not gonna deny that.



A problem indeed.


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Ryougi Shiki is a walking no-limits fallacy. I'm not gonna deny that.



So what? Is she another Haruhi or something?  We should stick to what she's shown to be able to do, and not wank her out of proportion.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

AfterGlow said:


> Except the speed of the bullets is an issue.
> 
> She would have to cut the bullets before they hit, meaning she would have FTL reflexes and speeds to match SoK spamming bullets that are fast enough to hit FTL characters.



Or she kills him before he fires. Wiki has his speed at peak human.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

> Not true. Some things are just always there. Like concepts such as time. And for that reason, Shiki's powers will not work on them, unless ofc it's Void Shiki.



Concepts ALWAYS begin from somewhere. It's like which came first, the chicken or the egg?

And I've been talking about Void Shiki the entire time. She's the most h4x.



> Yes. He cannot shoot his guns without inflicting a sure-fire fatal wound on someone. As Z was the only one, there it hit him.
> 
> It's like Gae Bolg without the causality manipulation and intead of canceling regen, it just kills you straight-up.



Yeah, and we all know Gae Bolg doesn't care about speed.



> God always existed, he is beyond time and space.Everything originates from God, since he is the beginning and the end.Or well, he would've been the end, if he hadn't been killed.He even states he created humans because he was lonely and wanted to be loved.



Cuz he's on his Throne. If not, he's killable.


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Concepts ALWAYS begin from somewhere. It's like which came first, the chicken or the egg?



That's not true at all. Where are you getting this from, concepts have been around forever. They're abstract.



> And I've been talking about Void Shiki the entire time. She's the most h4x.



Still though, she's never shown things on that level. We know she's shown SOME ability of this, but aside from word of moth we have nothing else from her.



> Yeah, and we all know Gae Bolg doesn't care about speed.



THis I dont get.



> Cuz he's on his Throne. If not, he's killable.



He could also kill the Devil IIRC.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

> So what? Is she another Haruhi or something?
> 
> We should stick to what she's shown to be able to do, and not wank her out of proportion.



Something like that except with reality killing instead of reality warping.



> Or she kills him before he fires. Wiki has his speed at peak human.



This is possible. 



> Ok but this is a bullet that never miss and kills anything ( and I think it has feats to support that claim) that > anything shiki has killed so far.



OK but my point is what's protecting the bullet from being killed beside speed? It's not a matter of defense since MEoDP doesn't care about durability.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Concepts ALWAYS begin from somewhere. It's like which came first, the chicken or the egg?



I still don't get where are you getting this from.



> Yeah, and we all know Gae Bolg doesn't care about speed.



Yeah but for example Gae Bolg won't get past the LHW.




> Cuz he's on his Throne. If not, he's killable.



Ok so is clear only a Omnipotent dude can escape from SoK and Shiki isn't one.

Really I give this to SoK.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> OK but my point is what's protecting the bullet from being killed beside speed? It's not a matter of defense since MEoDP doesn't care about durability.



The concept of never miss and kill anything, shiki hasn't kill anything like that does she?


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

How is she going to kill the bullet? Can she even react to it? Besides, it's powered by a nigh-omnipotent being.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Cubey said:


> How is she going to kill the bullet? Can she even react to it? Besides, it's powered by a nigh-omnipotent being.



I don't see anything about the bullet being faster than normal ones on the wiki page.


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> I don't see anything about the bullet being faster than normal ones on the wiki page.



I didnt say it was, I said how is she going to react to it?


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

Ok lets say she reacts then what?

the bullet never misses and kills anything so?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

> That's not true at all. Where are you getting this from, concepts have been around forever. They're abstract.



Let me put it like this. Besides being able to see and touch death, how is she able to understand the concept of death other than through her near-death experience? How does one understand the concept of death of magic or immortals?



> Yeah but for example Gae Bolg won't get past the LHW.



Granted



> THis I dont get.




As the lance has pierced the heart even before it is thrust, it is impossible to dodge or block it once this result has been determined. To dodge Gae Bolg, one does not need high AGI (agility), but instead the ability to change this fate before Gae Bolg is executed, LCK (luck) is most important. It is the most efficient Noble Phantasm, as it requires little magical energy to activate, and each activation is a sure kill.


Better?


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## zenieth (Jun 30, 2010)

cause this discussion isn't even about anything anymore going to say Lain is awesome.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2010)

Cubey said:


> I didnt say it was, I said how is she going to react to it?



She can react to it easily, as she speedblitzed someone who can dodge bullets.


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## Shoddragon (Jun 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Let me put it like this. Besides being able to see and touch death, how is she able to understand the concept of death other than through her near-death experience? How does one understand the concept of death of magic or immortals?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so the TL;DR version is basically you can only dodge it if you can:

reality warp
change fate itself
manipulate luck ( Like Luckyman from Tottemon: Luckyman)?
or essentially have universe level power ( control over a universe)?


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## Big Bοss (Jun 30, 2010)

Hey Ryoma you know about SoK what do you think?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

> so the TL;DR version is basically you can only dodge it if you can:
> reality warp
> change fate itself
> manipulate luck ( Like Luckyman from Tottemon: Luckyman)?
> or essentially have universe level power ( control over a universe)?



That or have some sort of divine shield or armor like Wonder Woman's bracelets or something along those lines.



> How is she going to kill the bullet? Can she even react to it? Besides, it's powered by a nigh-omnipotent being.





> The concept of never miss and kill anything, shiki hasn't kill anything like that does she?



OK, that's the bullet's killing power. But what about it defensively? Has anyone tried to destroy it itself?


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## God (Jun 30, 2010)

It cant be destroyed. A single bullet cant be fired from his guns without killing a person.



basch71 said:


> Let me put it like this. Besides being able to see and touch death, how is she able to understand the concept of death other than through her near-death experience? How does one understand the concept of death of magic or immortals?



Those things have origins though. Things that dont are unaffectd by her MEoDP.



> -snip-
> As the lance has pierced the heart even before it is thrust, it is impossible to dodge or block it once this result has been determined. To dodge Gae Bolg, one does not need high AGI (agility), but instead the ability to change this fate before Gae Bolg is executed, LCK (luck) is most important. It is the most efficient Noble Phantasm, as it requires little magical energy to activate, and each activation is a sure kill.
> 
> 
> Better?



Yeah like that but way more no-limits.



Crimson King said:


> She can react to it easily, as she speedblitzed someone who can dodge bullets.



Ok, that makes sense


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

I'll step down for now since this is just getting foggier and foggier. I don't mind SoK winning or not, I just wanted some questions answered first.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 30, 2010)

Cubey said:


> I
> 
> Yeah like that but way more no-limits.



A weapon that combines MEoDP insta-kill and Gae Bolg's sure kill accuracy. Jesus tapdancing Christ...


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## Nehilith (Jul 11, 2010)

SoK beats Female Shiki.
Void Shiki beats SoK.

My logic is this:
Female Shiki CAN’T dodge/destroy the bullets.
Bloodlusted Void would nullify the bullets and blitz SoK.

In the first fight it’s a matter of physics and particularly speed. In the second this barrier is removed and it comes down to a battle of concepts, in which SoK would get destroyed. Even if the bullets were faster than light as long as Void Shiki goes all out and straight for the kill it would be over in less than a second.


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## God (Jul 11, 2010)

Nehilith said:


> SoK beats Female Shiki.
> Void Shiki beats SoK.
> 
> My logic is this:
> ...



Prove      it.


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## Nehilith (Jul 12, 2010)

This isn’t a regular match like Naruto versus Naraku where we can have a clear debate with a clear winner because their abilities aren’t as ambiguous and more of the smash smash variety. In this thread there will always be a large degree of uncertainity but nonetheless I’ll try to explain my point of view.

SoK no matter how haxed has the speed and reflexes of a regular human and his strength and durability are a non-factor in this combat. Basically if he can shoot Shiki then it’s a win, if Shiki manages to close the distance then it’s a loss.

Female Shiki has no real way to defend herself against SoK; she is a casual bullet timer but doesn’t have the skills to cleave a bullet mid-air even if they travelled at the speed of regular bullets. Maybe she could at best manage to deal with the first salve but she would quickly become overwhelmed.

Third Shiki has ways to deal with SoK.

There are two schools of thoughts concerning this Shiki; the first that she has a total mastery over her link with Akashi and is basically a quasi-omnipotent being limited by a human body (basically fanwank), the second that she is a human being with human limits but with a direct access to a large inventory of hax. I prefer to limit myself to feats and maybe a bit of extrapolation from the various comments scattered across the books.

Her most known speech is: “Everything in creation has a flaw. Humans don’t even need not to be mentioned. Air, intent and even time… my eyes here can see the Death of things.” In the epilogue she asked Mikiya to make a wish, any wish, and she would make it come true. I don’t know if she truly had that ability but these comments amongst others entail that she can bend reality to some extent.

Now if I remember well at a specific moment of the book Araya teleported and Shiki jumped off a building, there was a swift scene change and Shiki basically appeared behind Araya and bisected him the moment he appeared. She killed the distance between them and cut him before he had the time to react.

This would not be nearly enough to deal with most of the top tier but SoK like Shiki is limited by a human body with human reflexes and his gun as long as it exists falls under the judiriction of Akasha, which Shiki can manipulate.

These are some of the arguments that can be used to argue in Shiki’s favor. There are more but this post is starting to become way too long.


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## hammer (Jul 12, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> Who is Charles Barley?? O.o



negged


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## Riverlia (Jul 12, 2010)

hammer said:


> negged


I'm an Asian, does that worth a pardon?


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## hammer (Jul 12, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> I'm an Asian, does that worth a pardon?



depends if you are an asian WOMEN i will rep you to fix my neg


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## Riverlia (Jul 12, 2010)

dream on, Tarzan~


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