# Gekko Moria vs. Crocodile



## Rob (Feb 17, 2014)

Location: Upper Yard
Distance: Start at 30m
S.O.M.: Blood-lusted, Intent to Kill

*Scenario 1:* No Knowledge
*Scenario 2:* Full Knowledge
*Bonus: *
-Full Knowledge
-Fight takes place in Alabasta
-Moria starts in Asgard

Some buddies and I were talking about the weakest Shichibukai, after Buggy's Bitch-ass of course... so these two came up. I feel that either of them could be argued for, unless a Knowledge-condition is given. 

Discuss.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 17, 2014)

You didn't restrict Logia intangibility, so Croc murders Moria.


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

we haven't seen moria to have any haki feats right? so until his giant ass starts to sweat or bleed he can't touch croc who sits there dehydrating moria and then poison hook so croc wins

with full knowledge moria cuts his knuckles to get some blood and the pounds crocodile to a pulp


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 17, 2014)

I would say Pre-skip and Post Skip Moria is stronger then Croc. 

But i see Croc becoming stronger eventually.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 17, 2014)

Because Moria starts in Asgard which is his most powerful form seen to date, a single one of his punches on crocodiles body would shatter the latter. He was able to keep up with a Gear 2 luffy that is an impressive feat in itself, especially when you're being pitted against someone who lost against the same character, luffy, but a weaker incarnation of luffy who had no Gear 2 at that time and was extremely slow. Moriah's island splitting punch are severely overpowered here and I see no glimpse of hope for crocodile to surviving his punches. Moriah takes this with mid difficulty at best.


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## JoJo (Feb 17, 2014)

Without any knowledge Croc might able to pull a win since Moria has literally no way of hurting of him. Question, are his scissors a mandatory requirement for him to remove the shadow of someone?

However with Knowledge, Moria should be able to win fairly easily since he has such massive offensive abilities while in Shadow Asgard mode and he's able to hurt croc.


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## Rob (Feb 17, 2014)

@HakiTards

Albasta Luffy didn't have Haki either 

Let's use our brains here.


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> @HakiTards
> 
> Albasta Luffy didn't have Haki either
> 
> Let's use our brains here.



and what happened to luffy the first 2 times he fought croc?


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## Rob (Feb 17, 2014)

Who cares? 
What happened the last time he fought Croc? 

His weakness was liquid the first time, and it was still liquid the last time. 

Doesn't change.


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

But without knowledge moria has no idea thats his weakness and also you stuck him in the desert so not only does moria have no idea how to hurt him but he's also in crocs element he can literally just drop moria into a giant pit of quick sand and be done with it


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## Rob (Feb 17, 2014)

Re-read the OP dude... 

In Upper Yard he has no knowledge. 

The Bonus Scenario, which takes place in the Desert, has Full Knowledge for both sides.


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

it still doesn't change anything with this fight without knowledge moria is fucked without any kind of moisture on him so all croc has to do is dehydrate moria when he tries to punch him fight over... again without haki or knowledge fighting croc is a difficult thing to do because of his dehydration move


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## Rob (Feb 17, 2014)

It's not like Moria is a complete idiot, and can't learn anything throughout the fight...


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## Forcer (Feb 17, 2014)

Moria steals shadow
fight ends


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

he won't have time to learn anything all croc has to to is touch moria which shouldn't be hard since moria in asgard will just be trying to blitz the fuck outta him and smash him. theres no reason to believe that after the first time croc disperses into sand that moria will just suddenly think "oo i have to be covered in liquid to hit him"


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 17, 2014)

thetitansage said:


> it still doesn't change anything with this fight without knowledge moria is fucked without any kind of moisture on him so all croc has to do is dehydrate moria when he tries to punch him fight over... again without haki or knowledge fighting croc is a difficult thing to do because of his dehydration move



He wouldn't be able to if he does not carry the necessary speed to hit moriah. Moriah kept up with a gear 2 luffy, whereas crocodile was getting hit by a base alabasta luffy. How does moriah lack moisture within him?


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

Mirage said:


> He wouldn't be able to if he does not carry the necessary speed to hit moriah. Moriah kept up with a gear 2 luffy, whereas crocodile was getting hit by a base alabasta luffy. How does moriah lack moisture within him?



Does moria just ooze juices? moria is enormous yes he's quick but if he throws one punch at crocodile croc just disperses around moria where he can just lay a hand on him and dehydrate him


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## Lmao (Feb 17, 2014)

thetitansage said:


> and what happened to luffy the first 2 times he fought croc?


Let's be frank, Luffy isn't known for being the intellectual type and it's not that hard to figure out Croc's weakness.


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

moria only fought luffy in g2 when he was in asgard form which the op only has for the bonus fight.

how can you say its not that hard to figure out crocs weakness?? Its easy to say that when you were specifically told in a story that thats his weakness


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## Rob (Feb 17, 2014)

What Lmao said. 

Also, Moria has set foot into the New World. Chances are that he has far better Battle-Knowledge than Alabasta Luffy...


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## monkey d ace (Feb 17, 2014)

croc > moria IMO, they're showings in MF shows that clearly, moria gets one-shotted by jinbie, croc survives a BP from jozu, and managed to save luffy from mihawk, by stopping his attack.


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> What Lmao said.
> 
> Also, Moria has set foot into the New World. Chances are that he has far better Battle-Knowledge than Alabasta Luffy...



yeah and after kaidou slaughtered his crew he became a fatass that decided the way to fight was to stop fighting battles for himself so his lack of actually fighting people has a chance of reducing his battle knowledge instead of him having a better battle knowledge


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## Rob (Feb 17, 2014)

I didn't realize making use of your Devil Fruit made you senile...


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## Lmao (Feb 17, 2014)

thetitansage said:


> Its easy to say that when you were specifically told in a story that thats his weakness


Not quite, water is a known effective counter against DF users in OPverse even more so against Suna Suna no Mi. 

It doesn't have to happen directly either, if Crocodile uses that last move (forgot its name) he did against Luffy which was apparently meant to act as a cutting technique against Moria and he gets blood in his hands then his punches will have no problem connecting with Croc's real body.

Of course this is just hypothetical talk but 'Moria doesn't have Haki therefore Croc wins by default cause Logia' is silly when there _are _viable alternatives to getting past his Logia intangibility.


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> I didn't realize making use of your Devil Fruit made you senile...



No but becoming a lazy fatass does which is exactly what moria did.

And lmao I'm not saying that the only reason croc wins is because of the intangibility its just that without knowledge it gives him quite the advantage of fighting a hakiless person and one who is shown to be a lazy fuck most of the time at that


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## Slenderman (Feb 17, 2014)

@Monkey D Ace Bro, Mihawk stopped Croc. Post the panel or look at it and i'm sure you'll see it. Even if he did, Tashigi stopped Zoro, yet Zoro would beat her easily.


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

Lmao said:


> Not quite, water is a known effective counter against DF users in OPverse even more so against Suna Suna no Mi.



 so in order to fight against aokiji one just needs to wet his hands?


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## Slenderman (Feb 17, 2014)

Without knowledge I could see Croc sneaking in a victory. With knowledge Moria wins quite easily.


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## Lmao (Feb 17, 2014)

thetitansage said:


> so in order to fight against aokiji one just needs to wet his hands?


Not sure how that comparison makes any sense but no, it's not the attacker that needs to be exposed to water but rather the DF user.


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

Lmao said:


> Not sure how that comparison makes any sense but no, it's not the attacker that needs to be exposed to water but rather the DF user.


actually only when a devil fruit user is exposed to sea water or anything that carries the "energy of the sea" like the seastone cuffs there is nowhere that states throwing a tub of fresh water on a df user would do anything, and since croc is affected by any liquid be it sweat or blood this is irrelevant in the fight anyway


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 17, 2014)

Moria wins the first two scenario's for one reason only: Doppleganger. If Moria constantly switches back and forth with his shadow, Croc would have an extremely hard time landing a one-shot since his sand attacks aren't extremely fast and he doesn't have CoO to predict Moria's next switch. In addition, Moria can use his Doppleganger to instantly appear behind Croc (once he finds an opening) to grab his shadow for an insta k.o. 

As for the bonus round, Croc wins since his quicksand attack is instantaneous in the desert and he can camouflage himself in the sand whenever he needs to.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 17, 2014)

thetitansage said:


> Does moria just ooze juices? moria is enormous yes he's quick but if he throws one punch at crocodile croc just disperses around moria where he can just lay a hand on him and dehydrate him



It's clear to me that you don't know a thing of the concerns of logia intangibility and the impossibilities a non haki user has to injure a logia consumer. Normally, the Op needs to specify why logia intangibility is off. The necessity of turning logia intangibility off for a logia fruit consumer is a relevant things that needs to be considered, otherwise the match would end rather quickly. You keep on ignoring the facts here. You haven't addressed to anything I wrote in my previous post; Moriah kept up with a gear two luffy who is vastly superior to alabasta luffy in terms of speed and power. Crocodile lost to an alabasta luffy which speaks a lot about which end of the spectrum of power he's at. Crocodile wouldn't be capable to react fast enough before the punch makes contact with his body.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 17, 2014)

Mirage said:


> *Moriah kept up with a gear two luffy* who is vastly superior to alabasta luffy in terms of speed and power. Crocodile lost to an alabasta luffy which speaks a lot about which end of the spectrum of power he's at. Crocodile wouldn't be capable to react fast enough before the punch makes contact with his body.


This isn't entirely true. Luffy was consistently dodging Moria's attacks and only got hit because the sheer magnitude of Asgard Moria's Brick Bats managed to overwhelm + catch him in a Shadow Cage. And don't forget that Croc can camouflage himself in the sand.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 17, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> This isn't entirely true. Luffy was consistently dodging Moria's attacks and only got hit because the sheer magnitude of Asgard Moria's Brick Bats managed to overwhelm + catch him in a Shadow Cage. And don't forget that Croc can camouflage himself in the sand.



He was dodging a few of his attacks but even then moriah was pressurizing luffy and made it hard for him to dodge his attacks. What? Moriah's shadow bats were able to catch luffy if I recall correctly, which is still a decent feat that crocodile would be incapable of replicating. Pretty sure crocodile camouflaging himself within his surroundings is irrelevant. Moriah has good enough reactions to counter any surprise attacks of crocodile's.. The sheer magnitude of moriah's bats just proves how hard it was for luffy to dodge moriah's attacks. It doesn't mean that the bats catching luffy had to do with the size of the cage, although the fact that moriah's continuous streams of attacks on a dodging luffy was what depleted luffy's strength, which will be the cause of crocodile's fatigue during his fight against moriah. Crocodile was getting tagged by an alabasta luffy who's drastically improved in terms of speed and power. He was tanking a plethora of jet bazooka's and was still capable of fighting despite his drastic injuries. Crocodile was rendered unconscious after getting pummeled by a few of luffy's gum gum pistol which are a lot weaker as far as causing damage to a matter goes than a jet bazooka.


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## monkey d ace (Feb 17, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> @Monkey D Ace Bro, Mihawk stopped Croc. Post the panel or look at it and i'm sure you'll see it. Even if he did, Tashigi stopped Zoro, yet Zoro would beat her easily.


yeah, i've seen it, mihawk is swinging his sword, attacking luffy, corc blocks it. mihawk stops, and luffy flees
yes, i know, i don't think that croc=mihawk or anything, just saying that croc's MF feats are > moria's feats. also i don't think that croc is fodder compared to mihawk, otherwise we would've seen him getting the same treatment as DAZ, but we saw him later on, with no visible injuries. atleast that's my take on that scene.


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## tanman (Feb 17, 2014)

Moriah wins this assuming a fresh Moriah can keep his shadows within him a little better. If so, his New World quality strength and knowledge of Crocodile's weakness gives him the win.


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## Orca (Feb 17, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> @Monkey D Ace Bro, Mihawk stopped Croc. Post the panel or look at it and i'm sure you'll see it. Even if he did, Tashigi stopped Zoro, yet Zoro would beat her easily.



No actually croc stopped Mihawk and not the other way around.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 17, 2014)

Mirage said:


> He was dodging a few of his attacks but even then moriah was pressurizing luffy and made it hard for him to dodge his attacks. What? *Moriah's shadow bats were able to catch luffy* if I recall correctly, which is still a decent feat that crocodile would be incapable of replicating.


I never denied this (even said the bolded in my post). I was only pointing out that it isn't entirely accurate to say Moria was able to keep up with G2 Luffy. His attacks were consistently missing and he only managed to tag Luffy after focusing a ridiculous amount of brick bats on a single point around him for Black Cage. How is Moria going to focus a plethora of bats on Croc (who'll be camouflaged in sand) if he has no idea where he is?



Mirage said:


> Pretty sure crocodile camouflaging himself within his surroundings is irrelevant. Moriah has good enough reactions to counter any surprise attacks of crocodile's.. The sheer magnitude of moriah's bats just proves how hard it was for luffy to dodge moriah's attacks.


Huh? Croc being able to camouflage himself in sand so that he's 100x harder to detect is most definitely not irrelevant and should be taken into consideration.

In mere seconds he can literally appear behind Moria foot, tickle him once with a poison hook, go back into hiding while reading a newspaper, and there isn't a damn thing Asagrd Moria can do about it while he slowly dies looking for him. And that's not even the worst Croc can do on his home turf *cough*DesertSunflower*cough*

And there's no way someone the size of Oz (which makes him a bigger target) is nimble enough to spin around, find Croc (let alone predict where Croc is going to emerge from next), and launch an attack all before Croc takes a split second to go back into hiding in sand. 



Mirage said:


> It doesn't mean that the bats catching luffy had to do with the size of the cage,


Never mentioned anything about the size of the cage.



Mirage said:


> although the fact that moriah's continuous streams of attacks on a dodging luffy was what depleted luffy's strength, which will be the cause of crocodile's fatigue during his fight against moriah.


Croc won't have to dodge a single thing. All he needs to do is hide in the sand (while Moria randomly thrashes about looking for him) and use Desert Sunflower for the win. It's literally that simple.



Mirage said:


> He was tanking a plethora of jet bazooka's and was still capable of fighting despite his drastic injuries.


How much he can tank is irrelevant if Croc can poison him, dehydrate him, or instantly trap him in quicksand(best option).



Mirage said:


> Crocodile was rendered unconscious after getting pummeled by a few of luffy's gum gum pistol which are a lot weaker as far as causing damage to a matter goes than a jet bazooka.


A "few" gomu gomu pistols made Croc unconscious??? You should probably go look at that Gomu Gomu no Storm attack again.....I promise you that it's not just a few hits and does waaay more damage than Jet Bazooka.


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## Magician (Feb 17, 2014)

Crocodile got stronger during Marineford due to author magic.

He should win this handily.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 17, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> I never denied this (even said the bolded in my post). I was only pointing out that it isn't entirely accurate to say Moria was able to keep up with G2 Luffy. His attacks were consistently missing and he only managed to tag Luffy after focusing a ridiculous amount of brick bats on a single point around him for Black Cage. How is Moria going to focus a plethora of bats on Croc (who'll be camouflaged in sand) if he has no idea where he is?
> 
> 
> Huh? Croc being able to camouflage himself in sand so that he's 100x harder to detect is most definitely not irrelevant and should be taken into consideration.
> ...




Regardless if he didn't clearly tag gear 2 luffy, we know for a fact that because he was able to pressurize a moving gear 2 luffy and made tired him afterwards, Gecko moria is far faster than crocodile. You can't compare a character whose attacks tagged a moving gear 2 luffy to a character who was getting his ass handed by a base, alabasta luffy. You're assuming that he'll camouflage himself with the surrounding sand but that doesn't play out with crocodile's tactics of defeating his opponents. Asgard moriah's punches would inflict so much raw force onto the ground that crocodile will have no other choices but to reveal himself as Logia users should not transform into their element against people who can inflict damage on their physical form, since the increased body volume also increases the area where crocodile is more susceptible to damage. As such, given the portion of ground moriah's island splitting punches affect, it'd turn crocodile to paste.

Despite crocodile having a somewhat good chance of winning,  Gecko moriah takes this, though it's tough to say. I assume Gecko has no shadows to consume, but even so he has techniques like Tsuno Tokage, which could be problematic for Croc. Gecko also has a strong almost-intangible-like ability where he switches with his shadow. Furthermore, if he puts his shadow in Croc's, he can contort Croc's body. I don't think his brick bats/black box will be very useful, but it's possible he could do some damage. I think if Moria can manage to dodge Croc with his shadow warp, he'll eventually win. 

Regardless if he's much harder to be detected, moriah's reactions are much better than his. Crocodile will try to leap out of the ground filled with sand in which he camouflaged himself in and try to ambush moriah. However, because crocodile has concealed him, moriah is aware that an instant hit from crocodile's dehydration ability on him would spell doom for him, thus he'll believe that it would only be customary for him to use a Doppelganger in every side of his body as body guards that will prevent crocodile from getting a surprise attack on him.

You're kidding me with this, right? Size isn't a detrimental factor for moriah from reacting to crocodile's slow attacks and moriah wouldn't even need to utilize his doppelgangers to protect himself from a concealed crocodile's incoming attack because a simple island busting punch on a specific area of the ground where crocodile has blended in will cause more than enough damage to destroy crocodile.

My mistake then. Still, the bats were quick enough to get to luffy. Normally, something moving towards luffy at slow speed would have given luffy enough time to distance himself from it.

How many ways crocodile has to kill moriah is irrelevant if he can't react to him and weaker.

Yes, they were only a few punches that landed on crocodile. Are you seriously trying to make the claim that luffy's gum gum storm is superior to his jet bazooka when it comes to which attacks causes more destruction to a matter? This is batshit asinine and believe me, if that were the case, then blueno would have been injured by the incarnation of luffy at water 7 that is stronger than his alabasta form that used his gum gum storm against him, yet he felt absolutely no damage at all. The same blueno that tanked base luffy's gatling gun was rendered unconscious immediately after he was hit by a jet bazooka. Why is it that lucci was able to easily tank a gum gum gatling fun from a stronger version of luffy yet was still critically damaged by luffy's gear 2 attacks? It's simple, gear 2 is an improvement of luffy's base attacks that derives from his Gum Gum fruit. Moria easily destroys Crocodile. He was able to react to Luffy's Gattling Gun while half asleep, a weaker version was able to defeat Crocodile. Moria is clearly out of Crocodile's league. Moriah has experience in the new world and although experience in the new world doesn't guarantee a win against certain opponents, it still is an asset of moriah's that will be beneficial for moriah.


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## Fiddlesticks (Feb 17, 2014)

Moria is almost as useless as fucking Urouge..

No, I take that back, hes not _that_ bad.


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## Bohemian Knight (Feb 17, 2014)

Gotta go with Croc. He gets shit for losing to pre-gears Luffy, and understandably so. I feel like his portrayal (he lacked a substantial on-panel battle, yes, but also didn't look too shabby) at MF was better than Moria's. I've never been a big fan of Moria, so I guess I'm biased, but I've always viewed him as being that strong outside of his Asgard form.

Anyway, Moria hasn't shown Haki. His chances are stealing Croc's shadow or taking Luffy style. Don't see either of those happening. Croc wins


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## thetitansage (Feb 17, 2014)

Asgard Moria dodged G2 luffy, base Moria never did if I'm recalling correctly and in the op the first fight is base moria vs croc not asgard moria


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 17, 2014)

thetitansage said:


> Asgard Moria dodged G2 luffy, base Moria never did if I'm recalling correctly and in the op the first fight is base moria vs croc not asgard moria



Sorry, I never read the first scenario... ye, I'd be willing to give crocodile the win for the first scenario but not for the 2nd


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## Guybot2 (Feb 17, 2014)

LOL at you guys " Moria went to NW.. he should take this" 

what make you think Croco havent went to NW? 

it was implied that he fought WB.. Guess where WB reside in? NW..

When he read the newspaper about luffy show up to ring the bell.. He was smiling as he told Daz bone "we are going to NW".. he is obviously NW veterans.. 

We will see prime moria and Stronger Croco when they show up later in the story.. we are more likely to see moria again in kaido arc..  

Croco's sand is pretty fast.. it took him to throw sands to stop the executioners right front of sengoku's face.. or the surprise attack to keep akainu at bay...


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 17, 2014)

@ Mirage 

Ok just so we're clear, everything I responded to you so far has been specifically in regards to Asgard Moria. 



Mirage said:


> Regardless if he didn't clearly tag gear 2 luffy, we know for a fact that because he was able to pressurize a moving gear 2 luffy and made tired him afterwards, Gecko moria is far faster than crocodile. You can't compare a character whose attacks tagged a moving gear 2 luffy to a character who was getting his ass handed by a base, alabasta luffy. You're assuming that he'll camouflage himself with the surrounding sand but that doesn't play out with crocodile's tactics of defeating his opponents.



Like I said before, Asgard Moria was consistently missing and only tagged Luffy because of Shadow Cage. How is he going to concentrate all of his bats on Croc to trap him in Shadow Cage if he has no idea where he is?



Mirage said:


> Asgard moriah's punches would inflict so much raw force onto the ground that crocodile will have no other choices but to reveal himself as Logia users should not transform into their element against people who can inflict damage on their physical form, since the increased body volume also increases the area where crocodile is more susceptible to damage. As such, given the portion of ground moriah's island splitting punches affect, it'd turn crocodile to paste.



All of that power doesn’t mean jack if you have no idea where your opponent is. 

And "increased body volume"...what the hell are you talking about? Croc using the desert to conceal himself from sight doesn't mean that he merges with the sand to increase his body mass. No idea where you're getting that from. 


Mirage said:


> Regardless if he's much harder to be detected, moriah's reactions are much better than his. Crocodile will try to leap out of the ground filled with sand in which he camouflaged himself in and try to ambush moriah. However, because crocodile has concealed him, moriah is aware that an instant hit from crocodile's dehydration ability on him would spell doom for him, thus he'll believe that it would only be customary for him to use a *Doppelganger in every side of his body as body guards* that will prevent crocodile from getting a surprise attack on him.


Nothing in the manga even remotely supports the bolded. You're just making stuff up now.



Mirage said:


> You're kidding me with this, right? Size isn't a detrimental factor for moriah from reacting to crocodile's slow attacks and moriah wouldn't even need to utilize his doppelgangers to protect himself from a concealed crocodile's incoming attack because a simple island busting punch on a specific area of the ground where crocodile has blended in will cause more than enough damage to destroy crocodile.
> 
> How many ways crocodile has to kill moriah is irrelevant if he can't react to him and weaker.


Croc being weaker than Asgard Moria doesn't matter....instant Desert Sunflower will bury him alive. 

And Croc will have no trouble touching Asgard Moria just once, the guy is just way too big to miss. If anything, Moria's the one that'll have trouble reacting to Croc due his gigantic size + the fact Croc can use hit and run tactics (one touch is all he needs) from any direction while hiding in sand.



Mirage said:


> Yes, they were only a few punches that landed on crocodile. Are you seriously trying to make the claim that luffy's gum gum storm is superior to his jet bazooka when it comes to which attacks causes more destruction to a matter? This is batshit asinine and believe me, if that were the case, then blueno would have been injured by the incarnation of luffy at water 7 that is stronger than his alabasta form that used his gum gum storm against him, yet he felt absolutely no damage at all. The same blueno that tanked base luffy's gatling gun was rendered unconscious immediately after he was hit by a jet bazooka. Why is it that lucci was able to easily tank a gum gum gatling fun from a stronger version of luffy yet was still critically damaged by luffy's gear 2 attacks? It's simple, gear 2 is an improvement of luffy's base attacks that derives from his Gum Gum fruit. Moria easily destroys Crocodile. He was able to react to Luffy's Gattling Gun while half asleep, a weaker version was able to defeat Crocodile. Moria is clearly out of Crocodile's league. Moriah has experience in the new world and although experience in the new world doesn't guarantee a win against certain opponents, it still is an asset of moriah's that will be beneficial for moriah.



Wow…where to even begin. First of all, Luffy at W7 was significantly weaker than his normal self. Second, Crocodile went to the new world as well so that doesn’t mean anything. Lastly…if you seriously think that Jet Bazooka does more damage + has more destructive capabilities than Gomu Gomu no Storm.....the *city block buster* attack that defeated a Shichibukai with a *shit-ton of hits* (not a "few" hits like you keep saying)...I have nothing else to say to you.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 17, 2014)

Guybot2 said:


> LOL at you guys " Moria went to NW.. he should take this"
> 
> what make you think Croco havent went to NW?
> 
> ...



First of all, your first sentence consists of a Straw man. No one ever made the claim that moria adventuring in the new world makes him stronger than Crocodile. I even included details explaining that that doesn't automatically imply that he'd win against crocodile. Your mistake of not having read my post properly.

You can make the claim that Crocodile went to the new world but you cannot claim it as a fact. Facts need to be proven either by the author showing Crocodile roaming the new world or the author explicitly stating that he did. Opinions don't need to be tested because they aren't necessarily truthful, nor are they wrong, although you can't take your opinion as a fact if the only thing your opinion's basis depends on is your belief of a certain subject.. Furthermore, don't assume only one theory to one  interpretation as there are far more likely answers to that statement and not just one; It was implied that Crocodile had confronted whitebeard but we have no evidence to suggest that they fought in the new world and nowhere else. For all we know, they could have fought in any other parts of the world in the one piece world. The responsibility of proving why crocodile has been to the new world lies on you to establish that the environment in which they had their fight was in the new world. You base your claims of crocodile going to the new world of circumstantial evidence which is not the ideal method one should try to handle a statement on validating it as a fact.

Wait, because he had planned on going to the new world, that automatically refers to him having been there before?  That's just wrong, it's a fallacy of composition mind you. That's like me buying a plane ticket to spain, a country which I have never visited before, and you come up to me and tell me that because I am planning to visit spain, I've therefore already been to Spain before... the person does not take in consideration that this might be my first visit to Spain and his assumption of me having been to spain before is extremely illogical. In other words, your analogy is horribly wrong.

How is his sand fast? He simply controlled the sand that was on the execution platform beneath the executioner's feet and whipped it at them prior to their swords making contact with ace's neck.

You're saying that a surprise attack to an akainu that didn't even know crocodile was behind him because Akainu's CoO was somehow "Off" was a good feat?  Kept him at bay? Don't make it seem like crocodile was the only one keeping akainu at bay. It was the combined effort of both he and the combined whitebeard pirates.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2014)

Moria beats Croc no matter what. He'd cut his shadow bypassing the Logia intangibility.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 17, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> @ Mirage
> 
> Ok just so we're clear, everything I responded to you so far has been specifically in regards to Asgard Moria.
> 
> ...





Not necessarily. The reason for which he was able to tag him wasn't because of the cage. It mostly had to do with the fact that his bats were fast enough to tag a gear second luffy, a feat crocodile wouldn't even come close to doing. That same crocodile was tagged by a base luffy's attacks. By that fact alone, I suppose you can come to the conclusion that the luffy crocodile fought at that time was hilariously weaker and slower than his thriller bark incarnation.

This is a nice red hearring. You're continuously dodging my points in an attempt to save face from the truth. Crocodile blending in with his surroundings will only give him Moriah more chances of defeating him because the increased body volume also increases the area where crocodile will be more prone to injuries. What am I talking about? It seems you forgot to read the manga properly; In smoker's fight against vergo, the latter had  demonstrated that Logia users should not transform into their element against people more proficient in the use of Haki than them. When a logia is in their elemental state, their specific element outwardly disperses, leaving the haki user (logia intangibility is off so it's the same thing) more chances of affecting their body as their haki imbued attacks on the element attached to the user forcibly renders the part of the element that was attacked into their physical body. Therefore hurting the logia. With crocodile's intangibility off, his tactic of blending within the sand will only give moriah a better chance of inflicting critical damage on him since the increased body volume of crocodile's sand will increase the area where crocodile can be attacked. An island splitting punch on the ground where crocodile concealed himself in will crush him.

I love how you were ignorant of what Oda explicitly stated. Take vergo's fight against smoker; Smoker transforms one of his hands in smoke, making his used to be physical hand transform in the form of smoke for a temporary amount of time. Vergo, a haki user, can use haki which is used as a medium for a person to injure the invincible logias decides to target the smoke that is linked with one of smoker's hands or a specific part of his body. The haki attack from vergo on one of the parts of smoker's body that is transformed in smoke will alter the smoke into smoker's physical form which will result in injuring smoker. The increased body volume also increases the area where the Logia user can be attacked. 

No, it will not. Crocodile does not have the ability to control sand that does not stem from his logia ability. His sand ability does not carry the power to engulf a giant such as moriah himself. His only chances of winning against moriah is using his dehydration ability to absorb all of the moisture in moriah's body. Still, moriah wouldn't let that happen. He'll create a shadow on the ground that extends towards the distance of crocodile and will slide with his shadow and arrive at the ending point of the shadow that is close to crocodile. He'll grab crocodile and crush him and pummel him with one of his hands. The force that split an entire island in two will be channeled through crocodile's body, thus killing him. After moriah sets up his shadows, he can always switch his shadows with his body and surprise crocodile with a strong punch. Well, when Luffy found out about Croc's weakness, Luffy and Croc were basically even with each other. (Croc won rounds 1 and 2, then Luffy finally beat him the 3rd time). Croc is pretty strong but I don't think he's amazing or anything. He is one of my personal favorite villians in the series.  From what we can tell, Moriah used to be very strong. Strong enough to take on the Emperor, Kaidou, in fact. After his defeat and destruction of his crew, he basically sat on his lazy bum and let everyone else do the work while he sat and did nothing. So his strength really decreased over that time. It took luffy gear second to put down moriah, whereas for crocodile, it only required luffy his base form that is leagues below the incarnation of luffy that fought against moriah in thriller bark.

You're in denial here. Even after proving to you how you were wrong by which I referenced a scene in the manga that showed blueno outright tanking base punches from luffy but remained unscathed and contrasted that scene with another scene that depicted that same blueno being unable to keep up with luffy's speed in gear second and the brute force of his punches in that mode, you deny my facts and spew out utter nonsense. It's clear to anyone that a jet pistol from a gear second luffy far outclasses anything the alabasta incarnation of luffy has to offer as far as damaging a matter goes. The fact that Lucci felt nothing from a base luffy's punches yet felt the need to go in his leopard form which in turn improves his speed, defense and attack attests to my arguments of jet bazooka being superior to base luffy's punches. You want more proof since i doubt you'd give up and accept the truth; A jet bazooka put multiple attempts of a base luffy's attacks for the purpose of putting blueno down in one shot! It nearly took luffy a dozens of punches to barely injure blueno yet one single jet bazooka ended blueno rather quickly. Ergo, Jet bazooka is far superior to Gum Gum storm. You can't deny this all you want, but the facts repudiate anything you have to say.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Moria beats Croc no matter what. He'd cut his shadow bypassing the Logia intangibility.



^ this finnaly, a glimpse of intelligence in this thread


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 18, 2014)

Mirage said:


> Not necessarily. The reason for which he was able to tag him wasn't because of the cage. It mostly had to do with the fact that his bats were fast enough to tag a gear second luffy, a feat crocodile wouldn't even come close to doing. That same crocodile was tagged by a base luffy's attacks. By that fact alone, I suppose you can come to the conclusion that the luffy crocodile fought at that time was hilariously weaker and slower than his thriller bark incarnation.


Who gives a flying crap whether or not Crocs attacks are fast enough to replicate the feat of tagging G2 Luffy. His opponent in the bonus round (what we've been talking about this whole time) is Asagrd Moria. Someone with that size won't be dodging any of Crocs attacks whatsoever. And no, I never even hinted that Alabasta Luffy is as strong or fast as G2 Luffy in Thriller Bark.



Mirage said:


> This is a nice red hearring. You're continuously dodging my points in an attempt to save face from the truth. Crocodile blending in with his surroundings will only give him Moriah more chances of defeating him because the increased body volume also increases the area where crocodile will be more prone to injuries. What am I talking about? It seems you forgot to read the manga properly; In smoker's fight against vergo, the latter had  demonstrated that Logia users should not transform into their element against people more proficient in the use of Haki than them. When a logia is in their elemental state, their specific element outwardly disperses, leaving the haki user (logia intangibility is off so it's the same thing) more chances of affecting their body as their haki imbued attacks on the element attached to the user forcibly renders the part of the element that was attacked into their physical body. Therefore hurting the logia. With crocodile's intangibility off, his tactic of blending within the sand will only give moriah a better chance of inflicting critical damage on him since the increased body volume of crocodile's sand will increase the area where crocodile can be attacked. An island splitting punch on the ground where crocodile concealed himself in will crush him.
> 
> I love how you were ignorant of what Oda explicitly stated. Take vergo's fight against smoker; Smoker transforms one of his hands in smoke, making his used to be physical hand transform in the form of smoke for a temporary amount of time. Vergo, a haki user, can use haki which is used as a medium for a person to injure the invincible logias decides to target the smoke that is linked with one of smoker's hands or a specific part of his body. The haki attack from vergo on one of the parts of smoker's body that is transformed in smoke will alter the smoke into smoker's physical form which will result in injuring smoker. The increased body volume also increases the area where the Logia user can be attacked.


I'm the one dodging points? I asked you a question twice now and you still haven't answered. How the hell will Moria even land a punch or focus all of his bats on Crocodile for Shadow Cage if he's _using the entire desert to conceal himself from sight_? And I'm still waiting for proof about Moria being able to make "bodyguards" around himself. 

All this pointless drivel about Logia's  expanding themselves and being more prone to damage is completely irrelevant to what I've been saying. I specifically stated that Croc being able to blend/camouflage in the sand *does not mean* that he's somehow capable of merging his body and becoming one with the desert to increase his "body volume". It just means that his body is hidden in sand and Moria won't be able to detect him to land any hits. That's it.



Mirage said:


> *No, it will not. Crocodile does not have the ability to control sand that does not stem from his logia ability.* His sand ability does not carry the power to engulf a giant such as moriah himself. His only chances of winning against moriah is using his dehydration ability to absorb all of the moisture in moriah's body. Still, moriah wouldn't let that happen. He'll create a shadow on the ground that extends towards the distance of crocodile and will slide with his shadow and arrive at the ending point of the shadow that is close to crocodile. He'll grab crocodile and crush him and pummel him with one of his hands. The force that split an entire island in two will be channeled through crocodile's body, thus killing him. After moriah sets up his shadows, he can always switch his shadows with his body and surprise crocodile with a strong punch. Well, when Luffy found out about Croc's weakness, Luffy and Croc were basically even with each other. (Croc won rounds 1 and 2, then Luffy finally beat him the 3rd time). Croc is pretty strong but I don't think he's amazing or anything. He is one of my personal favorite villians in the series.  From what we can tell, Moriah used to be very strong. Strong enough to take on the Emperor, Kaidou, in fact. After his defeat and destruction of his crew, he basically sat on his lazy bum and let everyone else do the work while he sat and did nothing. So his strength really decreased over that time. It took luffy gear second to put down moriah, whereas for crocodile, it only required luffy his base form that is leagues below the incarnation of luffy that fought against moriah in thriller bark.


 

The attack is virtually instant and all Croc has to do is increase the area of effect and Asgard Moria (who hasn't shown anything that suggests he'll be able to avoid that attack) is as good as dead.  

"It took G2 to take down Moria." Riiight......lets just completely ignore Luffy receiving an insane power boost (100x shadows), gear stacking, having the help of his crew to deal with Oz beforehand, and the gigantic mast that landed on Moria's stomach.



Mirage said:


> You're in denial here. Even after proving to you how you were wrong by which I referenced a scene in the manga that showed blueno outright tanking base punches from luffy but remained unscathed and contrasted that scene with another scene that depicted that same blueno being unable to keep up with luffy's speed in gear second and the brute force of his punches in that mode, you deny my facts and spew out utter nonsense. It's clear to anyone that a jet pistol from a gear second luffy far outclasses anything the alabasta incarnation of luffy has to offer as far as damaging a matter goes. The fact that Lucci felt nothing from a base luffy's punches yet felt the need to go in his leopard form which in turn improves his speed, defense and attack attests to my arguments of jet bazooka being superior to base luffy's punches. You want more proof since i doubt you'd give up and accept the truth; A jet bazooka put multiple attempts of a base luffy's attacks for the purpose of putting blueno down in one shot! It nearly took luffy a dozens of punches to barely injure blueno yet one single jet bazooka ended blueno rather quickly. Ergo, Jet bazooka is far superior to Gum Gum storm. You can't deny this all you want, but the facts repudiate anything you have to say.



Gomu Gomu no Storm, *an attack that completely obliterated an entire city block*, is much stronger and far more destructive than Jet Bazooka. I can't believe that you're even trying to argue against this and using freaking Blueno of all people to support your claim. 

And Blueno wasn't one-shotted by Jet Bazooka. He took two punches, a Rifle, a Jet Pistol, and a Jet Stamp all before that. In addition, the W7 Luffy that fought Blueno was significantly weaker than EL Luffy. At W7, base Luffy hits Blueno's Tekkai and he barely moves an inch. At Enies Lobby, base Luffy breaks through his Tekkai and Blueno even says something along the lines of "this isn't the same man that I fought at the mansion!"

Earlier you said "a few Gomu Gomu pistols made Croc unconscious". This isn't even close to being true because Gomu Gomu no Storm was what knocked out Croc and that attack is *far* from just a few hits, yet you repeated that same nonsense anyways. The only one in denial here is you.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 18, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Who gives a flying crap whether or not Crocs attacks are fast enough to replicate the feat of tagging G2 Luffy. His opponent in the bonus round (what we've been talking about this whole time) is Asagrd Moria. Someone with that size won't be dodging any of Crocs attacks whatsoever. And no, I never even hinted that Alabasta Luffy is as strong or fast as G2 Luffy in Thriller Bark.
> 
> 
> I'm the one dodging points? I asked you a question twice now and you still haven't answered. How the hell will Moria even land a punch or focus all of his bats on Crocodile for Shadow Cage if he's _using the entire desert to conceal himself from sight_? And I'm still waiting for proof about Moria being able to make "bodyguards" around himself.
> ...




You have no evidence to suggest this, thus you aren't eligible to make such a claim. If you have evidence that proves how crocodile can tag moria, then for the sake of this thread, bring it. Since you have not done this, you cannot conclusively rule crocodile out on being faster than moria. The only thing you're spouting is your opinionated beliefs of crocodile supposedly having the speed to tag moria but his portrayal of feats in the manga entirely suggest otherwise. Are you kidding me? Someone with that size was able to pressurize a gear 2 moving luffy and made it hard for Luffy to dodge his attacks. Afterwards, Luffy was showing signs of fatigue that stemmed from moria forcing him to dodge his attacks. Had it been crocodile that fought a gear 2 luffy, Luffy would have whizzed past him, rendering crocodile unconscious before he knew what had hit him.

This is funny, because since your first reply to my argument, none of what you've written had even been addressing to any of my claims my post were about. Crocodile won't be able to blend in with his surroundings much faster than the bats get to him. Of course, you'd object to this but you cannot argue against a fact. The fact still stands that Luffy was tagged by moriah's brickbats which theoretically implies that they'd have no problem tagging crocodile because he is slow as evidenced by the fact that he was getting tagged by an alabasta version of luffy. As to the body guard argument? Have you been skimming through the alabasta arc without paying any attention to what was going on? With his shadow ability, moriah is able to create doppelgangers of himself. We know that this is true because we saw him create several doppelgangers in thriller bark, specifically while he was sleeping on the corridor floor, he created 1 shadow clone against luffy and it was able to effortlessly stop his Gatling gun (note, that version of luffy's gatling gun is much superior to anything the incarnation of luffy in alabasta had). By virtue of having consumed the shadow shadow fruit, It allows Moriah to manifest and control shadows as physical beings. It is this fruit that allowed him to build his zombie army. We notice throughout the entity of his fights during thriller that he is loathe of fighting 1 on 1 against an opponent so he prefers to avoid fighting altogether, or at least fighting his enemy indirectly, either making his shadow fight or ordering one of his zombies to do so. With the power of his Shadow fruit, he is able to duplicate his own body but in the form of his shadows which are the figures he manifests to life for them to fight against his opponents. Remember, if moria can no longer has crocodile in his sight and is worried that he'll surprise attack him, he can create multiple shadows that'll surround him and protect him in case crocodile surprise attacks him...  Crocodile's attack will be to no avail because the shadows were in the way of his attacks. They'll be the one's to suffer damage but the shadow cannot be destroyed and will continue to reform. Moriah is able to switch his location with his shadow's location, which can also be used to dodge attacks mind  you so he's got a lot at his disposition to avoid crocodile's attacks. Not that it'll matter anyways, since one island splitting punch on the ground will shatter crocodile.

It is not irrelevant. You simply are aware that my counter argument to your point was a success but you're now making up an arbitrary excuse to not have to deal with my argument. Accept when your argument has been touched and show some respect for your opponent. Don't whine, but be responsible for the arguments you've made. Okay, to get back to the matter, Crocodile will blend in with his surroundings to try to confuse Moriah and to find a good opportunity within the elapse time in which he is hidden  to strike moriah in a vehement manner... This is a good tactic but crocodile is essentially allowing himself to get hit as his hidden presence conveys to moriah that since he is tangible and blended in with his surroundings, the increased body volume also increases the area where the Logia user can be attacked. Therefore, one island cracking punch on the ground will be enough to kill him.

It's not instant. The island busting punch, if it fails, will impact the ground with enough force to destroy everything in its way making tons of rubble fly off towards Crocodile at high velocities. It is the impediment to crocodile's attempt at using his ability at Moriah.

It never destroyed a city block. It simply destroyed a few bed rocks which still isn't nearly as powerful as a jet bazooka. Replace the attack that a gear 2 luffy used against moriah with the gum gum no storm and make it a direct hit on moriah, and you'll witness a noticeably large difference in damage. The gum gum storm won't be nearly as powerful as a couple of jet bazookas. 

Crocodile cannot control sand that does not belong to him. Oda even stated this. Stop contradicting what Oda has established for the rules concerning a logia's manipulation of other substances that are similar to their own. Yes, moriah was pummeled and hit with consecutive attacks of gum gum no storm from Luffy's shadow form yet he was still able to withstand the attacks and continue to fight. The Gum Gum storm attack that the version of Luffy who consumed 100 shadows was a lot of a heck stronger than the Gum Gum no storm attack Luffy used on crocodile back  in the alabasta arc. My latter sentence proves why a jet bazooka causes more damage to a matter, or a person, than gum gum no storm 

That is all irrelevant, however. Blueno suffered a few Gear 2nd variant attacks but that isn't the impetus that made him fall unconscious immediately after he was hit by a jet bazooka. The only reasonable explanation for which he was rendered unconscious had to do with the power the jet bazooka had behind it that was too much for blueno to handle. Of course, the attacks Luffy used against Blueno prior to having dealt the final damage to him with his jet bazooka were all a contributed add of damage that were gradually pushing blueno to his limits but even if those attacks weren't used on him, he would have still fallen unconscious after one simple jet bazooka on his torso. You must also understand that a Gum Gum Bazooka is several times stronger in causing damage to a matter than a Gum Gum pistol so it reinforces the notion that Blueno would have been finished after one jet bazooka notwithstanding the attacks he was hit with before.. The fact that Luffy's attacks in base form did no noticeable damage to either blueno or rob Lucci kind of proves my point that a jet bazooka would do more damage to a matter than a Gum Gum no Storm. Hence why Lucci started to feel damage after he was getting pummeled by Luffy attacks in his gear 2nd more although felt no damage in Luffy's endeavors to injure lucci with his attacks in his base form. 

It's true. A few of Luffy's punches from his Gum Gum storm was what made Crocodile go unconscious. I am interpreting what I in the manga, so I must be correct. Either way, this isn't really all that important to the topic we're discussing because we all know how crocodile would react after getting hit by a jet bazooka  would fall unconscious. His durability isn't as good as blueno's. He spent way too much time using his devil fruit during the entity of his life than training his body to withstand devastating blows. That is the difference here and that contrast between the two characters must at least give you a hint as to whether Crocodile would survive a jet bazooka or not.


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## BlueDemon (Feb 18, 2014)

Moria takes this.


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## RF (Feb 18, 2014)

Moriah is hilariously above Crocodile, he obviously wins this match.


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## punisher223 (Feb 18, 2014)

S1:  Moriah is a dangerous opponent to have no knowledge on, so I can see him possibly slipping a win in
S2: Croc wins low diff with intangibility on / Croc wins mid diff with intangibility off
Bonus: Croc stomps 1. Croc is in his element 2. Full knowledge 3. minimal water if any 4. Moriah is a huge target ( Moriah would probably be better off without asgard)


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 18, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Moriah is hilariously above Crocodile, he obviously wins this match.



Exactly, he's simply too much for him to handle.


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## Rocktomato (Feb 18, 2014)

Ryuuma said:


> Moria is almost as useless as fucking Urouge..
> 
> No, I take that back, hes not _that_ bad.


Yeah, he's so useless.

*Spoiler*: __ 








OT, Moria probably wins unless Croc gets really lucky.


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## Rob (Feb 18, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Moriah is hilariously above Crocodile, he obviously wins this match.


Not that I'm chosing sides here, as I feel both could be argued... But... Jimbei one-shotted Moria while Croc clashed with Mihawk and Dofla, on top of taking a hit to the face from Jozu. 


Rocktomato said:


> Yeah, he's so useless.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Fodderouge sucks ass dude


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## Unclear Justice (Feb 18, 2014)

You don?t have to kill your enemy to win a fight.

Moria beats Croc by caging him with Black Box.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 18, 2014)

punisher223 said:


> Bonus: Croc stomps 1. Croc is in his element 2. Full knowledge 3. minimal water if any 4. Moriah is a huge target ( Moriah would probably be better off without asgard)


This guy gets it.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 18, 2014)

@ Mirage 

You do realize that I already said Moria beats Croc in the first 2 scenarios right? The only thing I've been arguing with you over this entire time is the bonus round involving Asgard Moria fighting Croc in the desert and I'm getting the vibe that you're not fully aware of this. 



Mirage said:


> You have no evidence to suggest this, thus you aren't eligible to make such a claim. If you have evidence that proves how crocodile can tag moria, then for the sake of this thread, bring it. Since you have not done this, you cannot conclusively rule crocodile out on being faster than moria. The only thing you're spouting is your opinionated beliefs of crocodile supposedly having the speed to tag moria but his portrayal of feats in the manga entirely suggest otherwise. Are you kidding me? Someone with that size was able to pressurize a gear 2 moving luffy and made it hard for Luffy to dodge his attacks. Afterwards, Luffy was showing signs of fatigue that stemmed from moria forcing him to dodge his attacks. Had it been crocodile that fought a gear 2 luffy, Luffy would have whizzed past him, rendering crocodile unconscious before he knew what had hit him.


This is getting ridiculous. You seriously need to stop arguing against claims that I never even made. I never said that Croc was faster than Moria and I sure as hell don't need to provide evidence for Croc being able to hit someone who's practically the size of Oz.



Mirage said:


> This is funny, because since your first reply to my argument, none of what you've written had even been addressing to any of my claims my post were about. Crocodile won't be able to blend in with his surroundings much faster than the bats get to him. Of course, you'd object to this but you cannot argue against a fact. The fact still stands that Luffy was tagged by moriah's brickbats which theoretically implies that they'd have no problem tagging crocodile because he is slow as evidenced by the fact that he was getting tagged by an alabasta version of luffy.


For the last time, how will Asgard Moria tag an opponent that he can't find? His attacks could be extremely strong or fast, but all of that doesn't mean anything if he's unable to see an opponent that's capable of one- shotting him in mere seconds while being hidden in the desert.



Mirage said:


> As to the body guard argument? Have you been skimming through the alabasta arc without paying any attention to what was going on? With his shadow ability, moriah is able to create doppelgangers of himself. We know that this is true because we saw him create several doppelgangers in thriller bark, specifically while he was sleeping on the corridor floor, he created 1 shadow clone against luffy and it was able to effortlessly stop his Gatling gun (note, that version of luffy's gatling gun is much superior to anything the incarnation of luffy in alabasta had).


Gonna need to see manga scans on Moria creating "several Dopplegangers of himself". And the attack that blocked Luffy's Gattling Gun was Brick Bats, something different altogether. 



Mirage said:


> Remember, if moria can no longer has crocodile in his sight and is worried that he'll surprise attack him, he can create multiple shadows that'll surround him and protect him in case crocodile surprise attacks him...  Crocodile's attack will be to no avail because the shadows were in the way of his attacks. They'll be the one's to suffer damage but the shadow cannot be destroyed and will continue to reform. Moriah is able to switch his location with his shadow's location, which can also be used to dodge attacks mind  you so he's got a lot at his disposition to avoid crocodile's attacks. Not that it'll matter anyways, since one island splitting punch on the ground will shatter crocodile.


-If you're implying that Asgard Moria can create a ton of Brick Bats around himself as a form of defense, it won't work. Not only is there way too much area to cover around himself (which will leave tons of openings and is probably why he didn't use that tactic against G2 Luffy), Croc will be able to easily pass through them being a logia n'all. 

-You mean the same way Asgard Moria used his shadow to dodge Jet Rocket, multiple Jet Bazookas, and two Gigant Jet Shells? Oh wait....

-Asgard Moria can't shatter something he's incapable of seeing....



Mirage said:


> It is not irrelevant. You simply are aware that my counter argument to your point was a success but you're now making up an arbitrary excuse to not have to deal with my argument. Accept when your argument has been touched and show some respect for your opponent. Don't whine, but be responsible for the arguments you've made.


/facepalm

The "point" that you supposedly "countered" was never even made by me. I'm not the one who brought up anything about Croc being able to expand to his "body volume" so that he's susceptible to extra damage, that was literally all you. The only thing I stated was that Croc can blend in with the desert to remain hidden from sight and that has *absolutely nothing* to do with any of the pointless drivel that *you* brought up about Logia's increasing their "body volume".



Mirage said:


> Okay, to get back to the matter, Crocodile will blend in with his surroundings to try to confuse Moriah and to find a good opportunity within the elapse time in which he is hidden  to strike moriah in a vehement manner... This is a good tactic but crocodile is essentially allowing himself to get hit as his hidden presence conveys to moriah that since he is tangible and blended in with his surroundings, the *increased body volume also increases the area where the Logia user can be attacked*. Therefore, one island cracking punch on the ground will be enough to kill him.


To repeat myself...once again....

Croc concealing himself in the desert  =\=  increases his body volume. _These two things are completely unrelated._

In other words, camouflaging himself within the desert doesn't mean that he combines with the sand to increase his body volume like you keep on suggesting, it just means that he's hidden...nothing more, nothing less. Why is this basic concept is so difficult for you to understand? 



Mirage said:


> It's not instant.


We can clearly see that Desert Sunflower is instantaneous in the desert. Nothing you said or what Asgard Moria has shown suggests that he's capable of avoiding that attack.



Mirage said:


> The island busting punch, if it fails, will impact the ground with enough force to destroy everything in its way making tons of rubble fly off towards Crocodile at high velocities. It is the impediment to crocodile's attempt at using his ability at Moriah.


You mean the same way Asagrd Moria's island splitting punch sent rubble flying at "high velocities" towards every single person that stood nearby the attack on Thriller Bark? Wait nvm, that never happened. Even if it did, flying rubble won't do a damn thing to Croc. 



Mirage said:


> It never destroyed a city block. It simply destroyed a few bed rocks which still isn't nearly as powerful as a jet bazooka. Replace the attack that a gear 2 luffy used against moriah with the gum gum no storm and make it a direct hit on moriah, and you'll witness a noticeably large difference in damage. The gum gum storm won't be nearly as powerful as a couple of jet bazookas.






Wanna stop ignoring the manga now? Jet Bazooka (while a powerful attack) hasn't shown anything close to this level of power and destruction. 



Mirage said:


> That is all irrelevant, however. Blueno suffered a few Gear 2nd variant attacks but that isn't the impetus that made him fall unconscious immediately after he was hit by a jet bazooka. The only reasonable explanation for which he was rendered unconscious had to do with the power the jet bazooka had behind it that was too much for blueno to handle. Of course, the attacks Luffy used against Blueno prior to having dealt the final damage to him with his jet bazooka were all a contributed add of damage that were gradually pushing blueno to his limits but even if those attacks weren't used on him, he would have still fallen unconscious after one simple jet bazooka on his torso. You must also understand that a Gum Gum Bazooka is several times stronger in causing damage to a matter than a Gum Gum pistol so it reinforces the notion that Blueno would have been finished after one jet bazooka notwithstanding the attacks he was hit with before.. The fact that Luffy's attacks in base form did no noticeable damage to either blueno or rob Lucci kind of proves my point that a jet bazooka would do more damage to a matter than a Gum Gum no Storm. Hence why Lucci started to feel damage after he was getting pummeled by Luffy attacks in his gear 2nd more although felt no damage in Luffy's endeavors to injure lucci with his attacks in his base form.


There's absolutely no reason to assume that Jet Bazooka would've instantly defeated Blueno without him taking all those hits beforehand. By saying that, you're basically insinuating that the two base punches that sent Blueno flying, the base Rifle that broke through his Tekkai, the Jet Pistol that sent him flying, and the Jet Stamp that smashed his face into the ground are all vastly inferior to Jet Bazooka and hit like wet noodles in comparison....and that notion is blatantly incorrect.



Mirage said:


> It's true. *A few of Luffy's punches from his Gum Gum storm was what made Crocodile go unconscious*. I am interpreting what I in the manga, so I must be correct. Either way, this isn't really all that important to the topic we're discussing because we all know how crocodile would react after getting hit by a jet bazooka  would fall unconscious. His durability isn't as good as blueno's. He spent way too much time using his devil fruit during the entity of his life than training his body to withstand devastating blows. That is the difference here and that contrast between the two characters must at least give you a hint as to whether Crocodile would survive a jet bazooka or not.


Sweet Jesus...

I don't know what make believe world you're living in or if you're just being intentionally obtuse, but *Gomu Gomu no Storm is not just a few hits and it's superior to Jet Bazooka. This isn't even disputable and I'm not repeating this again just because you choose to ignore what's shown in the manga.*

The fact that you can look Gomu Gomu no Storm and say that it's just a "few hits", seriously makes me question if you're being serious.


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## Dunno (Feb 18, 2014)

Crocodile is stronger than Moria. Even with intangibility off, Croc takes this handily. Just looking at how they fared at MF, it's clear that Moria is weaker. Just look at their portrayal, Crocodile was doing all kinds of irritating stuff to top tiers while Moria was basically one-shot by Jinbei. Their interactions with Doflamingo also paints a clear picture.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

@king's disposition (can't quote cause of character limit)

Why does it matter? It’s not like I stated that I concurred with you on all the other points or the last scenario. I am simply arguing against what you believe for the bonus scenario and if you cannot take on any of my points, then I am afraid you really shouldn't be debating here. Of course you are. Your posts are clear indication of your belief of crocodile being faster than moria since you're arguing for crocodile to win here. Moria was able to tag a gear 2nd luffy that is roughly 10 times faster than his alabasta incarnation that was able to land multiple blows on crocodile. Theoretically, your endeavors to prove how crocodile will win against moriah translate to you believing that he is faster than moria otherwise you wouldn't be arguing for him to win here. 

Simple, Crocodile blending in with the surrounding sand will be irrelevant to moriah. A simple island splitting punch on the ground before crocodile surprise attacks him will cause enough harm to Crocodile and will actually harm his body because Logia intangibility is off. The increased body volume also increases the area where the Logia user can be attacked. Crocodile merging with a portion of the ground will increase the area in which he can be hit. Therefore, one hit from Moriah on the ground where crocodile has hidden himself will do enough damage to critically injure him. 

As I said before, you exploit your weaknesses to me each and every single time you post. You're honestly trying to argue against a shown fact in the manga and you're trying to make it seem as though I am lying to you because the claim I made doesn't seem to be the truth. Moriah created a doppelganger during his fight against Luffy and the Strawhats. It's only logical to believe that he can create multiple doppelgangers that are created for the purpose of protecting Moriah against crocodile's surprise attack.

You have no evidence for the claim you made of which you stated that crocodile can find an opening in even the most constricted places. Either show me proof that he can or concede. Your proof, as seen by your post, is that crocodile can get through and find an opening despite being encased in Moriah's shadow box yet you've shown me no evidence that validates your claim as a fact. Crocodile is a logia and can transform into sand, but he hasn't demonstrated the ability of going through them. He's never made any use with his devil fruit of passing through objects that he is encased in. Your justification for this is that he is plain and simple a "Logia" on what basis are you trying to infer that he can get through encased object? Your answer to that is blatantly wrong; Because his ability to transform into sand seems to be a believable ability that'll let him past through enclosed areas? Either show me panel proof of Crocodile doing such, or concede.

It does not matter if he was unable to dodge any of those aforementioned attacks from a gear luffy. The fact that he was able to more or less keep up with a gear 2 luffy that crocodile would have had absolutely no chance of mimicking a feat of that caliber kind of proves why he is faster than Crocodile. Crocodile will not be able to hide within his surroundings before the bats get to him and form a box that encases his body in and what follows is several punches of strength to split an island in two...

Logia intangibility is off... Moriah isn't known to be an analytic fight so his patience for crocodile not showing himself will run thin that will be the catalyst for his continuous streams of island splitting punches on the ground that will result in Crocodile getting destroyed. Again, all that smashing will only be rendered much easier to injure crocodile because the area in which crocodile hid himself in the ground increases his body volume which isn't intangible by default of the Op's rules and so the attacks will be a success.

Crocodile blending in won't matter and his attempts of surprise attacking Moriah is useless if there are multiple shadow clones guarding each side of moriah's body. By the time crocodile surprise attacks Crocodile, moriah can switch with his shadows and effortlessly dodge any of crocodile's attacks. Crocodile is hilariously overpowered.

How are they unrelated? Crocodile will merge with the sand so his Body volume of his sand will only make him a much easier target for moriah and he will be susceptible to physical attacks because intangibility is off. Moriah will capitalize on the opportunity instantly after he notices that Crocodile's body has dispersed all over the ground.

Even if he does not meld with the surrounding sand and just blends in with the sand by virtue of his sand ability, The rubble's of the earth that will be flying towards crocodile at fast velocities because of the island splitting punch will be more than enough damage to critically injure crocodile and by that time, crocodile's presence will be revealed which the only thing left for Moriah to do is smash him with another punch that'll put an end to Crocodile once and for all.

His desert sunflower won't be applied prior to Moriah releasing his bats towards Crocodile which will shape a box several times the size of Crocodile and engulf him within its restrictions..   His bats were able to hold up with a Gear second Luffy and even catch him, something leagues above anything crocodile has shown in the speed section. Moriah also had a decent enough reaction and movement speed to pressurize a gear second Luffy. That is more than enough evidence to make the claim that he will get out of the way of Crocodile's Desert sunflower.

It is Kind of hard to believe that you are not able to cope with common sense and beginner level physics. When a force of that magnitude that is capable of splitting an island is applied to the ground, rubble will evidently fly towards the direction closest to it for a short amount of time until gravity finally does its job and makes the objects lose momentum. Crocodile concealing himself to which he will be gradually moving towards Moriah to surprise attack him will only give moriah the suspicion that he's beneath him trying to find a good enough distance that is not too far away from him to strike him. All this will result in Moriah striking the ground with the force to split an island and accidentally, Crocodile was in the way of the attack and dies from it.

It doesn't matter what it destroys, as long as it was able to completely render a person unconscious after one simply strike to said person's torso which other attacks from luffy's base form were unable to apply that same amount of damage, then it is hereby viewed as stronger. You keep ignoring this easily recognizable fact because you're too afraid that your argument will  be refuted. Jet bazooka causes more damage to a matter than a Gum Gum storm. The former was able to render blueno unconscious after one simple strike to his torso and prior attacks that were landed on blueno are irrelevant to testifying if it was those contributed damage that was what finally pushed blueno to his limit after a jet bazooka to his torso.. Each and every base attacks of Luffy were barely injuring either Blueno or Lucci yet Luffy's attacks in his gear second more were...

Even an enhanced form of Gum Gum no storm from a luffy that consumed a plethora of shadows weren't nearly as critical in injuring moriah as a jet bazooka from luffy's gear second mode. Nevertheless, the attacks Luffy used on Blueno moments after he entered his Gear 2 mode and baffled Blueno weren't the decisive contributed damaged that finally decided that another attack from Luffy would put an end to Blueno regardless of which form of attack he utilizes on blueno. Luffy's Bazooka ability far exceeds his most popular attacks called Gum Gum pistol so it's only logical to assume that a jet bazooka would have supplied the finishing blow to blueno regardless if other attacks were used before. Gum gum no storm is not more potent than Jet bazooka. I honestly cannot fathom how and why you came up with this idea. Surely you are joking and I already denied your arguments by proving why the claims you've made for your arguments were all wrong. Eichiro Oda even put emphasis for his readers as to which form of attacks from which mode of Luffy is more ideal for delivering devastating blow on a matter; when he showed Blueno effortlessly tanking Luffy's base form attacks but was annihilated after one jet bazooka. More so, we can even get a good grasp of why jet bazooka is stronger than a gum gum storm when we go back to the time where Lucci was feeling absolutely no damage at all from luffy's attacks in his base form yet felt a great deal of pain from Luffy's jet pistol, jet bazooka et cetera.. 

A few can mean almost any number of punches in this context. I am outright saying that luffy's punches consisted of a few sets of hits on crocodile. You have a problem? I don't care.

Please don't dispute against a fact.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 19, 2014)

@ Mirage I'm responding to all of your points but I won't be quoting every single thing that you wrote.



Mirage said:


> Of course you are. Your posts are clear indication of your belief of crocodile being faster than moria since you're arguing for crocodile to win here. Moria was able to tag a gear 2nd luffy that is roughly 10 times faster than his alabasta incarnation that was able to land multiple blows on crocodile. Theoretically, your endeavors to prove how crocodile will win against moriah translate to you believing that he is faster than moria otherwise you wouldn't be arguing for him to win here.


*Please provide a quote where I directly stated that Croc was faster than Moria. That's not what I've been insinuating at all and if you cannot provide said quote, drop this point immediately because you're straw mans are getting ridiculous.* I'm not even the one who brought up speed as a factor, you're the one that did....yet you have the gall to accuse me of saying that Croc is faster than Moria? How does that crap make any sense???

Crocodile (who has multiple one-shot options) can't miss any attack whatsoever on Asgard Moria...the guy is a gigantic target dummy. It's next to impossible to miss someone that huge (Croc's speed has nothing to do with it...it's a nonfactor + I never brought it up) and you asking for evidence that he can is completely ludicrous. 

Moria's target (who's capable of trapping him in quicksand *instantly*) on the other hand is extremely small in comparison and can turn (NOT MERGE WITH) into his element in a *split second* to hide from sight in the desert. Therefore Asgard Moria (doesn't mater how fast or strong he is) can't touch Croc because he has no freakin clue where the sandman is. It's not rocket science....



Mirage said:


> Simple, Crocodile blending in with the surrounding sand will be irrelevant to moriah. A simple island splitting punch on the ground before crocodile surprise attacks him will cause enough harm to Crocodile and will actually harm his body because Logia intangibility is off. The increased body volume also increases the area where the Logia user can be attacked. Crocodile merging with a portion of the ground will increase the area in which he can be hit. Therefore, one hit from Moriah on the ground where crocodile has hidden himself will do enough damage to critically injure him.


Like I said earlier...*Croc concealing himself in the desert  =\=  increases his body volume. These two things are completely unrelated.*

Read what I said above again....One more time...Stare at it if you need to...and get it through you're head.

*Now please provide manga scans of a Logia user merging with their element in the environment to increase their "body volume".* Croc, or any logia user for that matter, has never shown to be capable of becoming one with their element that wasn't produced by them. In addition, when I say that Croc camouflages himself in the desert, it *does not* mean that he expanded himself like Smoker did (which is something different altogether) *or* that he somehow fuses his body with the desert sand to increase his "body volume" like you keep on suggesting. 

It simply means that he's hidden. Concealed from sight. Virtually invisible. Turning into his element to hide in the desert has absolutely nothing to do with increasing "body volume". Nothing. Nada. Zip. Stop bringing it up, it isn't what I'm saying Croc is doing, and it's completely irrelevant.  



Mirage said:


> As I said before, you exploit your weaknesses to me each and every single time you post. You're honestly trying to argue against a shown fact in the manga and you're trying to make it seem as though I am lying to you because the claim I made doesn't seem to be the truth. Moriah created a doppelganger during his fight against Luffy and the Strawhats. It's only logical to believe that he can create multiple doppelgangers that are created for the purpose of protecting Moriah against crocodile's surprise attack.


*Please provide manga scans of Moria creating "multiple Dopplegangers".*

And you're trying to use base Moria feats, not *Asgard* Moria's which is who we've been talking about the entire time. If Moria was capable of using his Doppleganger while in *Asgard mode*, then he would've used it to dodge Jet Rocket, multiple Jet Bazooka's, and two Gigant Jet Shells........but he didn't...I'm sure you get the hint.



Mirage said:


> You have no evidence for the claim you made of which you stated that crocodile can find an opening in even the most constricted places. Either show me proof that he can or concede. Your proof, as seen by your post, is that crocodile can get through and find an opening despite being encased in Moriah's shadow box yet you've shown me no evidence that validates your claim as a fact.


*Please quote where I directly said that Croc can pass through Shadow Cage if he was ever encased by it.* The attack won't even capture Croc in the first place because he'll be hidden and Asgard Moria won't know where to focus all if his bats for the cage.

In regards to the passing through part, it sounded like you were implying that Asgard Moria can use Brick Bats to surround himself as a form of defense (if it isn't, then ignore the rest of this paragraph). I said that it wouldn't work because Croc's a Logia and he can easily find openings to pass through the Bats because there's just way too much ground to cover around Asgard Moria. *Nothing to do with a Shadow Cage...didn't even mention the attack in that paragraph.*



Mirage said:


> Logia intangibility is off...


*Please point to me where it says that Crocs intangibility is off anywhere in the Op.*



Mirage said:


> The rubble's of the earth that will be flying towards crocodile at fast velocities because of the island splitting punch will be more than enough damage to critically injure crocodile and by that time, crocodile's presence will be revealed which the only thing left for Moriah to do is smash him with another punch that'll put an end to Crocodile once and for all.







That's funny....I don't see *a single person* (and there's crapton of people standing nearby) getting hit by "rubble flying at high velocities" in either of those scans. *Stop making stuff up and read the damn manga.* Crocs intangibility isn't even off in the bonus round so rubble wouldn't do anything to him anyways.



Mirage said:


> Jet bazooka causes more damage to a matter than a Gum Gum storm. The former was able to render blueno unconscious after one simple strike to his torso and prior attacks that were landed on blueno are irrelevant to testifying if it was those contributed damage that was what finally pushed blueno to his limit after a jet bazooka to his torso.


So you honestly think that the two regular punches that sent Blueno flying, the base Rifle that broke through his Tekkai, the Jet Pistol that sent him crashing, and the Jet Stamp that smashed his face into the ground are all vastly inferior to Jet Bazooka and hit like wet noodles in comparison....and that Jet Bazooka practically one shotted Blueno despite the several hits that he took beforehand? Yea....that's a load of bullcrap.



Mirage said:


> Each and every base attacks of Luffy were barely injuring either Blueno






Clearly those base punches barely injured Blueno....clearly. /endsarcasm

I'm starting think we don't read the same manga or that you're just plain delusional....probably both.



Mirage said:


> Even an enhanced form of Gum Gum no storm from a luffy that consumed a plethora of shadows weren't nearly as critical in injuring moriah as a jet bazooka from luffy's gear second mode.


You must be trolling. You do realize that Nightmare Luffy is literally 100x stronger then regular Luffy right? Jet Bazooka doesn't even compare to anything that NM is capable of. 

Not to mention that a significantly less amount of punches from NM Luffy's Storm were hitting Moria and a large portion of the attack was hitting Oz, yet Moria was still critically injured, could barely stand, and had to resort to Shadow Asgard as a desperation attack (as Zoro put it) just to have a chance of winning. You seriously need to stop downplaying one Luffy's best attacks seen to date.



Mirage said:


> A few can mean almost any number of punches in this context. I am outright saying that luffy's punches consisted of a few sets of hits on crocodile. You have a problem? I don't care.


This is unbelievable.....like...you're actually trying to change the definition of "a few" so that it suits you're argument. A few means _two to three_ or a _small number of_. *THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT DISPUTABLE*. 

You say Gomu Gomu no Storm is just a "few hits"...anyone with eyes and a pulse can clearly see that it's many many many many hits. You say "it just destroyed a few bedrock" yet anyone can clearly see (in the scans that I provided) an entire city block being destroyed and crumbled. I keep proving you wrong yet you continue to spew nonsense and ignore what's shown in the manga. What's next? You gonna say that Luffy's attacks don't require him to stretch now? 

*If you decide to respond without providing the quotations AND manga evidence for everything I specifically asked for in all the bolded parts above, then don't even bother because I won't read it and I'm getting sick of you arguing against claims that I never even made.

In addition, I'm making a separate topic to settle this dispute about Gomu Gomu no Storm vs Jet Bazooka (the former is most definitely stronger than the latter) because it's off topic.*


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 19, 2014)

@King's disposition 


Theoretically, because you believe that the crocodile who lost against moriah can surprise attack Moriah and get a direct hit on him before the latter will react to his attack, you are therefore implying that he is faster than Moriah. There is no denying to this. IT's clearly been written in your posts and the context of your post firmly suggests this. You want to deny what you said, okay, but it isn't a good debating tactic mind you. When you pit two characters to fight against each other and one of the characters is faster than the other, and you're vouching for the slow one to win, from there on, you believe that the slower character is faster than him. I am in no way beating a strawman. Your excuses to dodge my points are frankly the only ridiculous things here.

You're making it seem like moriah is simply one gigantic dummy who cannot move at all, although his portrayal in the manga suggests otherwise.. Your judgement of him being large that is the catalyst for your preconceived notion of him being slow based off his physical appearance is totally wrong because you shouldn't solely judge him by his size. The facts repudiate anything you have to say as to him being slow. He was able to pressurize a gear second luffy who is leagues above Crocodile in terms of speed and his brick bats got to Luffy before he had the chance to move. The bats that got to Luffy formed a box that encased Luffy within it much faster than Luffy could react.

Not true. Well, it is partially true. Crocodile is capable of merging with his sand but that will only prove to be useless for him to injure Moriah as he no longer has his intangibility and will get hit by Moriah's island splitting punch that destroyed a large portion of the ground, a force which crocodile has never seen tanking. The sheer vibration of an attack of that magnitude would annihiliate Crocodile. Moriah will not have to scrutinize the ground to discern the location of a hidden crocodile, he'll simply bash the ground with multiple punches that are able to split an island in half and accidentally reveal Crocodile's location because of the force of an island splitting punch that was transferred to the ground. Its sheer force will open up a gap on the gap, revealing a dead crocodile. And if that doesn't kill him, the rubble on the ground moving towards crocodile at high velocity will be the cause of his death. You have to remember that crocodile merging with the surrounding will only increase his body volume, since the increased body volume also increases the area where the Logia user can be attacked. How does "Trapping" moriah within the sand prove anything?  Moriah has many options in his arsenal to defeat Crocodile; His brick bats will get to him and form a box that will encase Crocodile in the box, virtually closing every chances of escape Crocodile has to get out of harm's way. Following what I just wrote, he'll repeatedly bash the box in which Crocodile has been trapped in, until moriah has comprehensively recognized that Crocodile has died. Furthermore, Crocodile never demonstrated the ability to get through the gaps of certain enclosed spaces. You've made that up in an attempt to make it seem as though crocodile can get through Crocodile's box. 

They're not relevant. How are they relevant? Crocodile won't be able to conceal himself in the first place because of his clothes, and if he merges in with the sand deep below the above ground, he'll increase his body volume and thus make himself an easier target for Moriah to kill.

You're simply not understanding the concept of an established fact from Oda himself who put emphasis on this several times. A logia user who emits large amounts of their element that derives from the fruit they consumed that is still connected to their main body make themselves an easier target for specifically haki users to injure them. The element that they oozed from a specific part of their body that is connected to a certain part of their body ( which is entirely dependent on which part of the body the logia consumer released his element on) can be hit by an attack imbued with haki which as we know forcibly reverts the logia user's  transformed body part to its physical form. Thus causing damage to the logia user. Take smoker's fight against vergo; During his battle with Smoker, Vergo demonstrated that Logia users should not transform into their element against people more proficient in the use of Haki than them. When smoker released a large amounts of smoke that expands several times the size of his body to blind vergo's sight, vergo was able to grab the smoke smoker emitted out of his body as if the matter was tangible because of his haki and hit the smoke with haki that caused smoker pain.

Like I stated in one of my earlier posts, even if the tactic in which crocodile conceals himself within the sand has absolutely nothing to do with Crocodile expanding his body volume that'll increase the area where moriah can hit crocodile, it does not change the fact that Crocodile will get hit and die the instant moriah transfers the force capable of splitting an island on the below ground. If the attacks fails to directly make contact with his body or crocodile is simply too far away from the attack's range, which I doubt, tons of rubble will fly towards Crocodile and injure him and will actually cause him damage because he nolonger has his logia intangibility.

Since you ignored my last point, I will fixate my attention on this part of the argument; Moriah can  use his Shadow Shadow fruit to create one or several doppelganger. If he was able to create a multitude of brick bats, he should be able to create multiple shadow clones as body guards that will surround him in order to protect him from crocodile's surprise attacks. Not like it'll matter since a punch to the ground would suffice in killing Crocodile.

Nice display of selective reading. I never made this claim. You need to understand what the opposition says and reply to what he or she has written in his or her post. Please don't use a straw man arguments. It automatically makes you concede defeat. I never made this claim. I said that Moriah can switch himself with the shadow's he's placed on the ground that extend from his distance to the distance at which crocodile is at promptly after crocodile attacks him. Furthermore, he can switch himself with his shadow faster than any of crocodile's attacks. Ultimately, after he gets behind crocodile, he'll alter the form of his shadow to that of multiple small bats and direct them towards Crocodile to form a black-box that will encase crocodile within it. 

First of all, it was in no way nearby as what you're suggesting it to be. Please learn when to recognize when an object or a person is either nearby or far away. Obviously it was purposely intended by the author of the manga One piece to not make any of the Straw-Hat pirates suffer any critical damage from the blast of moriah's punch on the ground. I will reiterate on the basis of explaining to you proper physics; When an energy of the magnitude to split an island in half is directly transmitted to the priming, the cause of a massive influx of rubble arbitrarily flying towards certain locations towards far away distances has to make out with the fact that Moriah's punch was powerful enough to carve up an island in half that was the cause for tons of rocks flying at high speeds to long distances.

I never made this claim. I simply said that a shadow consuming luffy's gum gum no storm that is roughly hundreds of times stronger than his alabasta incarnation used the same move the alabasta incarnation used to deal the final damage to crocodile on moriah, yet moriah did not face defeat in the hands of that Luffy. The attack that made him suffer more damage on his Body was a Gum Gum no jet bazooka on his body. This proves why a jet bazooka is stronger than base luffy's gum gum storm.

Those attacks that contributed a few damage to blueno's body weren't the cause for which he was instantly rendered unconscious after Luffy's Gum Gum jet bazooka hit his body. Luffy's jet bazooka comes second to only his Gum Gum jet gatling in terms of causing damage to a matter so the contributed attacks luffy used on blueno moments after he entered his gear second mode and just prior to using his jet bazooza on blueno  were irrelevant factors that amounted to nothing. They don't prove why Blueno receiving the damage from those attacks were the cause for his instant loss the second he was hit by a jet bazooka. Yes, those attacks were only "A FEW" sets of punches. Have no clue why you are throwing a tamper tantrum over me describing his gum gum no storm as only a few punches. Luffy's gum gum no storm simply teared through a few bedrocks and his punches lifted the below ground on which palm trees and small houses were standing on. All of his attacks from his base form weren't causing any harm to either blueno or Lucci, although his attacks in his gear 2 second mode was the factor that led to his victory against them. Simply put; Jet bazooka is far superior to Gum Gum no storm.


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## Sanji (Feb 19, 2014)

Moriah wins.

MF really fucked up everyone's perception of Croc, half of the feats during the war make no goddamn sense.


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## tupadre97 (Feb 20, 2014)

Moria casually fought G2 Luffy and took his shadow easily. Croc doesn't stand a chance against Moria, he gets raped.





TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> You didn't restrict Logia intangibility, so Croc murders Moria.



Moria blitzes him and one shots with shadow steal, zero difficulty.





JoJo said:


> *Without any knowledge Croc might able to pull a win since Moria has literally no way of hurting of him. *Question, are his scissors a mandatory requirement for him to remove the shadow of someone?
> 
> However with Knowledge, Moria should be able to win fairly easily since he has such massive offensive abilities while in Shadow Asgard mode and he's able to hurt croc.



 Why does everyone forget moria can one shot him with a shadow steal. Shit Croc is the one who can't hurt Moria. Moria can his whole body or even individual body parts with his shadow pratically making him a logia. And he is obviosly much faster than Croc seeing how he can react to *G2* *TB* Luffy while Croc got his shit pushed in by just Alabasta Luffy.





RobLucciRapes said:


> Re-read the OP dude...
> 
> In Upper Yard he has no knowledge.
> 
> The Bonus Scenario, which takes place in the Desert, has Full Knowledge for both sides.



Oh i didn't see the bonus scenario taking place in the desert. That will give Croc a major advantage but still he won't be able to do a thing to Moria, it'll just prolong the inevitable.





Lmao said:


> Let's be frank, Luffy isn't known for being the intellectual type and it's not that hard to figure out Croc's weakness.



Well it was really pell who helped him find his weakness but that doesn't matter in this fight. Shadow steal gg.





monkey d ace said:


> croc > moria IMO, they're showings in MF shows that clearly, moria gets one-shotted by jinbie, croc survives a BP from jozu, and managed to save luffy from mihawk, by stopping his attack.



Jinbe getting one shot by Jinbe was bcuz of his fishman karate being the natural weakness of his df. Also stop with this Croc surviving brilliant punk nonsense. It literally proves nothing. Luffy survived a light speed kick from kizaru and it doesn't mean shit, just like with Croc. Hell it even proves how much of a bitch he is bcuz he was trying to run away after that even though it didn't hurt him that much. Mf Croc is literally the same Croc from Alabasta just in a different setting doing different shit, thats it.





Kings Disposition said:


> This isn't entirely true. Luffy was consistently dodging Moria's attacks and only got hit because the sheer magnitude of Asgard Moria's Brick Bats managed to overwhelm + catch him in a Shadow Cage. And don't forget that Croc can camouflage himself in the sand.



It doesn't matter. The fact is, is that Moria could fight with a version of Luffy who was far faster and superior to the one that fought Croc. Meaning that he is also far superior to Croc when it comes to those stats. So it doesn't matter if Croc is gonna hide in the desert when they fight bcuz he will never land an attack. The same way he couldn't land an attack when he fought Luffy the third time and Moria is much faster than that Luffy so he'll easily be able to react to anything Croc does. He can also just swap out individual body parts to make sure he never hits. Croc doesn't stand a chance no matter what situation he's in.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 20, 2014)

tupadre97 said:


> It doesn't matter. The fact is, is that Moria could fight with a version of Luffy who was far faster and superior to the one that fought Croc. Meaning that he is also far superior to Croc when it comes to those stats. So it doesn't matter if Croc is gonna hide in the desert when they fight bcuz he will never land an attack. *The same way he couldn't land an attack when he fought Luffy the third time* and Moria is much faster than that Luffy so he'll easily be able to react to anything Croc does. He can also just swap out individual body parts to make sure he never hits. Croc doesn't stand a chance no matter what situation he's in.


Yes I'd agree with you under normal circumstances and even said that Moria beats Croc in the first two scenarios.

In the bonus round that takes place in the desert however, Asgard Moria is way too big of a target to miss. Croc can *instantly* trap him in quicksand with Desert Sunflower or scratch the back of his heel with a poison hook all while being concealed from sight.

And the bolded is false.


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## tupadre97 (Feb 21, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Yes I'd agree with you under normal circumstances and even said that Moria beats Croc in the first two scenarios.
> 
> In the bonus round that takes place in the desert however, Asgard Moria is way too big of a target to miss. Croc can *instantly* trap him in quicksand with Desert Sunflower or scratch the back of his heel with a poison hook all while being concealed from sight.
> 
> And the bolded is false.



Oh why is he in asgard form when he can just beat him normally? That's weird but Moria still wins, he's just better than him.

Also you need to reread the Luffy vs Croc round 3. Croc barely grazed him with his poison hook in the beginning of the fight then proceeded to get his shit pushed in. He didn't land one single hit after that besides a heavy sandstorm which Luffy tanked no problem. Once Luffy found his weakness and learned all of his techniques and fighting style he assraped him, Croc didn't stand a chance in hell. And ppl are trying to say that Croc can beat a guy who didn't even take G2 Luffy serioiusly in a fight? Yeah right you guys need to stop.


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## Dunno (Feb 21, 2014)

Yeah, Moria is defintely stronger than Crocodile.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 21, 2014)

tupadre97 said:


> Oh why is he in asgard form when he can just beat him normally?


Did you even bother reading the OP?



tupadre97 said:


> That's weird but Moria still wins, he's just better than him.


Normally I'd put him above Croc as well but Asgard Moria gets buried alive by Desert Sunflower (which is virtually instant) in the bonus round. 

Not to mention that Croc has access to other one-shot options and can use _the entire desert_ to conceal himself from sight. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, Asgard mode is actually working _against_ Moria in that scenario and he'd be better off without it. 



tupadre97 said:


> Also you need to reread the Luffy vs Croc round 3. Croc barely grazed him with his poison hook in the beginning of the fight then proceeded to get his shit pushed in. He didn't land one single hit after that besides a heavy sandstorm which Luffy tanked no problem. Once Luffy found his weakness and learned all of his techniques and fighting style he assraped him, Croc didn't stand a chance in hell.


Uh...I think you're the one that needs to re-read the fight again. That graze was all he needed to effectively poison Luffy. As far as Croc was concerned (looking from his perspective), he had already won the match at that point. 

Crocodile - "_Thrusted, buried alive, and dried up. You've been through all that and still stand up. But this time you won't!....The match is set. And the poison is spreading throughout your body!_"

Then after successfully finding an opening and poisoning him, Croc played it defensively where he only focused on dodging and didn't even bother trying to hit Luffy again with his poison hook. After all...why would he? All he needed was a single scratch (which he had already achieved) and continuing to look for openings to attack Luffy again would be pointless since the poison was already running its course.

*After poisoning Luffy*:




(In the above scans, Croc avoids all of his Luffy's attacks and doesn't even attempt to hit Luffy again like he tried doing earlier as shown below).

*Before poisoning Luffy*:



(In these scans, Croc actually tries to hit Luffy's limb with his hook in an attempt to poison him).

And don't forget...had Robin not have been there, Luffy's death would've been ensured the second he was touched by Croc.



tupadre97 said:


> And ppl are trying to say that Croc can beat a *guy who didn't even take G2 Luffy serioiusly in a fight?* Yeah right you guys need to stop.


What? He was critically injured, Oz was just defeated, all the shadows that he worked to gather _over years_ were about to be lost, and he was forced into using a last-resort desperation tactic just to have a fighting chance ....all thanks to Luffy and his crew. 

If there was ever a time for Moria to take him seriously, it was *most certainly* during their last fight.


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## Imagine (Feb 21, 2014)

Holy fucking walls of text.


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## Rob (Feb 21, 2014)

These TL;DR's are almost Doflamingo level.

I'm on my phone, so the text is scrunche up and looks even longer...


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## tupadre97 (Feb 21, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Yeah, Moria is defintely stronger than Crocodile.



Can't even see those pics...but yeah he is.


Kings Disposition said:


> Did you even bother reading the OP?
> 
> 
> Normally I'd put him above Croc as well but Asgard Moria gets buried alive by Desert Sunflower (which is virtually instant) in the bonus round.
> ...



Lol still trying to grasp at straws for Croc. He definitely tried to attack Luffy again (as shown in these panels) 
*Spoiler*: __ 









 and he was completely outclassed. Where are his amazing dodging skills here? He knows that he's shit when it comes to cqb so he compensates with a cheap poison hook and even that gets beaten. It couldn't stop Luffy from beating his ass, even he wondered . Even with his cheap poison hook he can still get his ass beat after he poisons someone but he'd never even land something like that on Moria.

And when it comes to Moria v Luffy i was obviously talking about when they first met and not after he got destroyed by Nightmare Luffy.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 21, 2014)

tupadre97 said:


> Lol still trying to grasp at straws for Croc. He definitely tried to attack Luffy again (as shown in these panels)
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


First off I never said that Croc had amazing dodging skills, don?t put words in my mouth. I said that right after he poisoned Luffy, he then focused on dodging?..which is exactly what he successfully did against many of Luffy?s attacks as shown in those scans in my last post. He only made that  attempt at finishing off Luffy (in your first scan) _after_ this had happened...




....where he was _under the impression_ that Luffy could barely move and when finding an opening was no longer necessary (though to his surprise, Luffy was miraculously regaining his strength and that's when the tables started to turn on Croc). 



tupadre97 said:


> Even with his cheap poison hook he can still get his ass beat after he poisons someone but he'd never even land something like that on Moria.


Like I said before, Luffy would've died (which would've made their last fight practically a tie) if Robin wasn't there to give him an antidote. 

And Asgard Moria is the size of OZ...no one can miss an attack on someone that big.



tupadre97 said:


> And when it comes to Moria v Luffy i was obviously talking about when they first met and not after he got destroyed by Nightmare Luffy.



You specifically said that Moria "wasn't taking G2 Luffy seriously"?..Luffy only went G2 in their last fight (not when they first met) where absolutely everything was on the line.


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