# Cloud vs Sora from Kingdom Hearts II



## Kai (Sep 26, 2006)

Cloud(mastered all skills) vs Sora in Final Form from Kingdom Hearts II.

Discuss.


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## ZergKage (Sep 26, 2006)

Sora is on a whole nother level.


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## escamoh (Sep 26, 2006)

Which Cloud is this?


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 26, 2006)

(AC)Cloud rips Sora a couple hundred new ones


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Sora is the new undisputed reversal king. The majority of what Cloud does WILL get dodged or reversed by Sora.

However, Sora has LOADS of ways to get to Cloud.

Simply put. Sora wins.


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## Nexas (Sep 26, 2006)

KH Cloud<Sora<<FF7 Cloud


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Nexas said:
			
		

> KH Cloud<*KH I* Sora<<FF7 Cloud<*KHII Sora*



Thought I'd fix that for you.


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## Nexas (Sep 26, 2006)

No I got it right the first time. Sora is indeed strong but he can't compete with Cloud with all mastered skills.


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## Shizor (Sep 26, 2006)

Could someone refresh my memory of the extent of Sora's powers? I haven't played KH2 in a while, and I overwrote my saved game that was right before the Xemnas fight.


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 26, 2006)

With Final form, Sora has a good chance of winning


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## Nexas (Sep 26, 2006)

Shizor said:
			
		

> Could someone refresh my memory of the extent of Sora's powers? I haven't played KH2 in a while, and I overwrote my saved game that was right before the Xemnas fight.


Chopping up buildings and stuff like that. In terms of sword skills he and Cloud are around the same level. Its Cloud's magic that makes him superior to Sora. I mean whats Sora gonna do when Cloud summons a giant metalic space dragon? I tell what he's gonna do, He gonna die.


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## Moondoggie (Sep 26, 2006)

So I am guessing something like Sora Prime vs. Cloud Prime? heh
I think I am going to go with Sora, he may be young but he is right up there with the best, dodging, gliding, enough power block just about anything coming his way even elements, he has 3 other power sources Valor, Wisdom, Master, and Final{If Donald and Goofy are allowed to at least be in the area}.

Cloud's no push over, but I believe Sora will definitely give him a fight has seen in Kh1 and Kh2(*).

Also Sora > 1,000 Heartless. heh


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Nexas said:
			
		

> No I got it right the first time. Sora is indeed strong but he can't compete with Cloud with all mastered skills.



Cloud with all skills mastered isn't any different from Cait Sith with all skills mastered... 

Are you going to tell me that Cait Sith can beat Sora?


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Nexas said:
			
		

> Chopping up buildings and stuff like that. In terms of sword skills he and Cloud are around the same level. Its Cloud's magic that makes him superior to Sora. I mean whats Sora gonna do when Cloud summons a giant metalic space dragon? I tell what he's gonna do, He gonna die.



Sora and Cloud aren't equal in sword skills. Sora's a bit above him.

As for summons... giant beast haven't been given Sora trouble since Kingdom Hearts 1.


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## Nexas (Sep 26, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Cloud with all skills mastered isn't any different from Cait Sith with all skills mastered...
> 
> Are you going to tell me that Cait Sith can beat Sora?


With something like KOTR yes.


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 26, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Sora and Cloud aren't equal in sword skills. Sora's a bit above him.
> 
> As for summons... giant beast haven't been given Sora trouble since Kingdom Hearts 1.



Explain. What makes you think that?


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## Nexas (Sep 26, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Sora and Cloud aren't equal in sword skills. Sora's a bit above him.
> 
> As for summons... giant beast haven't been given Sora trouble since Kingdom Hearts 1.


I said they are around the same level not they are equal. And I wouldn't put summons on the same level as your regular monster. Bahamut Zero manages to hit its target from space, or was it Neo Bahamut? Hell I can't remember.


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Nexas said:
			
		

> With something like KOTR yes.



Ah yes. The most overused retort when debating with Cloud. And I'll add yet again...

How proficient do people really believe Cloud is in summoning magic? Do one belive he's Yuna, Rydia, or any more porminent summoner in the FF world?

People need to stop treating Cloud like he can automatically pull summons out his ass. Even grade A summons in most ANY media has proven that it isn't that easy.


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 26, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Ah yes. The most overused retort when debating with Cloud. And I'll add yet again...
> 
> How proficient do people really believe Cloud is in summoning magic? Do one belive he's Yuna, Rydia, or any more porminent summoner in the FF world?
> 
> People need to stop treating Cloud like he can automatically pull summons out his ass. Even grade A summons in most ANY media has proven that it isn't that easy.



why do you think he will lose? Explain.


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## Emery (Sep 26, 2006)

If cloud is equipped with Final Attack+Revive and KOTR then he wins. XD  

He also needs at least 500 MP.


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## Nexas (Sep 26, 2006)

> People need to stop treating Cloud like he can automatically pull summons out his ass. Even grade A summons in most ANY media has proven that it isn't that easy


Kadaj managed to perform a high level summoning in seconds what makes you think Cloud could do any less.


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## Shizor (Sep 26, 2006)

Moondoggie said:
			
		

> Also Sora > 1,000 Heartless. heh



1,000 heartless of like 2 different types, each with the most effective reaction commands out there...

that fight was kinda underwhelming once you actually did it. seemed like it was going to be much more interesting.


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 26, 2006)

Keollyn, why is Cloud's swordplay weaker than Sora's? I would like a anwser.


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## Nexas (Sep 26, 2006)

Shizor said:
			
		

> 1,000 heartless of like 2 different types, each with the most effective reaction commands out there...
> 
> that fight was kinda underwhelming once you actually did it. seemed like it was going to be much more interesting.


Indeed the heartless came at you ten at time and all it took was reaction commands. Great job SE 

Oh well off to play FF9 some more. That game rocks


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 26, 2006)

What makes Sora win? Valid question.


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Nexas said:
			
		

> I said they are around the same level not they are equal. And I wouldn't put summons on the same level as your regular monster. Bahamut Zero manages to hit its target from space, or was it Neo Bahamut? Hell I can't remember.



Same level isn't that different from equal though. You could have just simply stated who's where and not do such a weak comparison if you really didn't mean that.

Regular monsters? Are you sure I'm just talking about regular monsters? Was Cerberus, Genie Jafar, Hades, Ursula, Dragon Maleficent, and the Titans just regular monsters? Heck, even Darkseid Heartless proved that Sora can't be outclassed by just any giant beast (especially when he was just starting out and beat him). Bahamut Zero going into space to fire a blast would just be an call for KH*2* Sora to dodge/reverse.

I'm not a big fan of Sora, but even I have to take a look back at his profolio and say "Damn!"


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> Explain. What makes you think that?



Which part? The swordplay or the "Sora not having trouble with giant beast" part?


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 26, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Same level isn't that different from equal though. You could have just simply stated who's were and not do such a weak comparison if you really didn't mean that.
> 
> Regular monsters? Are you sure I'm just talking about regular monsters? Was Cerberus, Genie Jafar, Hades, Ursula, Dragon Maleficent, the Titans just regular monsters? Heck, even Darkseid Heartless proved that Sora can't be outclassed by just any giant beast (especially when he was just starting out and beat him). Bahamut Zero going into space to fire a blast would just be an call for KH*2* Sora to dodge/reverse.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of Sora, but even I have to take a look back at his profolio and say "Damn!"



Keollyn, How would Sora dodge/deflect Bahamut Zero's attack?



			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> Which part? The swordplay or the "Sora not having trouble with giant beast" part?



that Sora's swordplay>>Cloud's swordplay


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Nexas said:
			
		

> Kadaj managed to perform a high level summoning in seconds what makes you think Cloud could do any less.



And what makes you think Cloud shares Kadaj's summoning ability? Have you actually seen Cloud counter that summon with a summon?


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> Keollyn, How would Sora dodge/deflect Bahamut Zero's attack?
> 
> 
> 
> that Sora's swordplay>>Cloud's swordplay



In the *first* fight Roxas had, he reverses a blast being shot at him from few meters away WHILE being binded. Why would Sora get hit by a blast ALL the way from space when end of game Sora is leagues better than Roxas (especially when TC allowed Final Form Sora)

About sowrdplay? Well, this will be an opinion... so I'm not sure I should share it.


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## Shizor (Sep 26, 2006)

Sora can't dodge Bahamut Zero's attacks unless he can move out of the gigantic blast radius in time.

which he can't.


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Shizor said:
			
		

> Sora can't dodge Bahamut Zero's attacks unless he can move out of the gigantic blast radius in time.
> 
> which he can't.



And praytell... what is this blast radius? From what I recall.... it wasn't gigantic...


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 26, 2006)

Bahammut Zero's attack

Eureka Seven OP 4 - "Sakura"

Enjoy.


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## Moondoggie (Sep 26, 2006)

Shizor said:
			
		

> 1,000 heartless of like 2 different types, each with the most effective reaction commands out there...
> 
> that fight was kinda underwhelming once you actually did it. seemed like it was going to be much more interesting.


 
Actually it was, but for some reason Nomura removed the Behemoths from the army. heh

SideNote: Even with Reaction commands we are talking about the characters, and though it's a just a button press to us, it's actual work for Sora. Which does reflect on his skills imo.


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## Keollyn (Sep 26, 2006)

Yeah, I've seen it already. Played FF7 four times and the moves are still relatively fresh in my mind. It still isn't a blast that Sora wouldn't be able to dodge. For one, it takes a VAST amount of time to even begin. Heck, if I may be so bold... Cloud may be in serious trouble with Sora down on Earth by the time Bahamut shot it (Cloud does have summoning lag as depict in FF7... god I hate using game mechanics..)

Simply put. The blast isn't big enough, it takes far to long to perform, the distance is to vast and Sora will have free reign on Cloud for a short period of time before and during the summon. Bahamut Zero isn't the best move Cloud could use against Sora.


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## Kai (Sep 27, 2006)

Emery said:
			
		

> If cloud is equipped with Final Attack+Revive and KOTR then he wins. XD



I said with all skills mastered.


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## ZergKage (Sep 27, 2006)

Cloud: *Summons Bahamut*
Sora: *Summons Genie*
Genie: SOOOOOOOORRRRRRAAA i love you!! what can i do for you today remake this town? make the sun blue? 
Sora: Just get rid of this Bahamut so i can beat Cloud again.

Seriously if you wanna play the summon game Genie will beat any summon you can think of.

Secondly Sora's Reflect spell blocks all forms of magic/physical attacks so thats useless. Not to mention that if you try going physical your in range of the reflected amplfied damage

Hes faster and stronger and thats in base form. In Final form his stats increase so much that it wont be a match. It will be a slaughter.


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## Keollyn (Sep 27, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Cloud: *Summons Bahamut*
> Sora: *Summons Genie*
> Genie: SOOOOOOOORRRRRRAAA i love you!! what can i do for you today remake this town? make the sun blue?
> Sora: Just get rid of this Bahamut so i can beat Cloud again.
> ...



I couldn't have put it any better.


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## Emery (Sep 27, 2006)

You're forgetting that Cloud can cast Wall, Haste, all that kind of shit...and he has teh Omnislash.  Not to mention, how the fuck will the keyblade really damage cloud?  Cloud has actual swords..that are..you know..sharp. =|


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## Shizor (Sep 27, 2006)

How the hell is Sora faster and stronger than Cloud?


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## Keollyn (Sep 27, 2006)

Have you actually been hit with a keyblade before? Blunt objects swung at great force STILL hurt. And if I'm not mistaken... some of Sora's keyblade have sharp edges.

Besides, Sora's attack are arguably an attack of the heart/soul. But this was just some speculation I heard from some Sora fanatic.


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## escamoh (Sep 27, 2006)

Alrightey then.

Game Cloud would win this easily with materia and stuff.

AC Cloud would also beat the crap out of Sora.

So....Cloud wins.


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## Keollyn (Sep 27, 2006)

Yeah, you saying it and not giving ANY reason to how will surely make your statement automatically true.


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## Keollyn (Sep 27, 2006)

Oh yeah... I kind of forgot I'm in the OBD....


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## Moondoggie (Sep 27, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Have you actually been hit with a keyblade before? Blunt objects swung at great force STILL hurt. And if I'm not mistaken... some of Sora's keyblade have sharp edges.


 
Personally I have always looked at it(Especially after Sora's feats in KH2), has a blade or sword, but the shape just has the appearance of a key. One thing that comes to mind is that you never see anyone even attempt to grab or pick up the key from anything other then the key's handle. 

Something like a solid illusion powered by magic.
This is just my look on it though. ^^


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## escamoh (Sep 27, 2006)

The Keyblade isn't blunt. You can see the sharp edge it has if you look closely during some cutscenes.


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## Moondoggie (Sep 27, 2006)

Hmm, really?



Maybe my eyes aren't has good as they use to be. heh


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## ZergKage (Sep 27, 2006)

Emery said:
			
		

> You're forgetting that Cloud can cast Wall, Haste, all that kind of shit



Wall will be useless as Sora would rather just beat him with the Keyblade. Haste gives you a 50% increase in speed which i still dont think he'd be able to keep up with Sora. But when Sora goes Final form his Stats double so really he would be alot faster. And hell if Sora went Anti-Sora(the fastest form in the game) Cloud wouldnt know what hit him



			
				Emery said:
			
		

> ...and he has teh Omnislash.



Sora has many abilities too. Omnislash was cool looking but that doesnt mean Sora will just stand there and let it happen  



			
				Emery said:
			
		

> Not to mention, how the fuck will the keyblade really damage cloud?  Cloud has actual swords..that are..you know..sharp. =|



Please pretend you've atleast played the game, if your gonna say something this ignorant theres no reason to go any further




			
				Shizor said:
			
		

> How the hell is Sora faster and stronger than Cloud?



Stronger- Taking hits from Hercules(when he did this he was only at 50% also), Lifting and throwing the Fire/Ice Genies, Getting hit with buildings, Hitting buildings back at people, cutting threw whole buildings not just pieces

Faster- Blocking hundreds of lasers coming from omnidirectional ways, Dodging Laser shots from Xigbar, fast enough to run up a building, kicking back laser shots from Xigbars nobodies multiple times, 

This is only what i can think of off the top of my head

Not to mention he has already beaten Cloud/Sephiroth in each game. He also beats Cloud/Yuffie/Tifa/Leon Solo. Not to mention he has the better looking win record beating anything from genies to frost giants


There ya go


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## Kai (Sep 27, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Cloud: *Summons Bahamut*
> Sora: *Summons Genie*
> Genie: SOOOOOOOORRRRRRAAA i love you!! what can i do for you today remake this town? make the sun blue?
> Sora: Just get rid of this Bahamut so i can beat Cloud again.
> ...



Have you ever played FF7? Sora doesn't stand a rat's ass of a chance against Cloud in base form. Cloud(with all skills mastered) could take Sora on with one arm while he's in Valor form.

Also, I didn't specify what keyblade he's using. He doesn't have to use the Kingdom Key, he can use Oblivion or Ultima.


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## ZergKage (Sep 27, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> Have you ever played FF7? Sora doesn't stand a rat's ass of a chance against Cloud in base form. Cloud(with all skills mastered) could take Sora on with one arm while he's in Valor form.
> 
> Also, I didn't specify what keyblade he's using. He doesn't have to use the Kingdom Key, he can use Oblivion or Ultima.



No, who the hell has played ff7, maybe you can explain what Cloud will do instead of just saying baseless stuff like you just did.


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## Kai (Sep 27, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> No, who the hell has played ff7,





> saying baseless stuff like you just did.


Seem relevant to you?

To answer your question, Knights of the Round Table. You probably don't know what that does, so he summons 13 knights and they do various brutal attacks on the enemy. You say that Sora > Cloud while he's in base form which is unbelievable foolish talk. There's no way he stands a chance against Cloud there. Without Donald or Goofy, it's already been tough on Sora from the beginning.


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## ZergKage (Sep 27, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> Seem relevant to you?
> 
> To answer your question, Knights of the Round Table. You probably don't know what that does, so he summons 13 knights and they do various brutal attacks on the enemy. You say that Sora > Cloud while he's in base form which is unbelievable foolish talk. There's no way he stands a chance against Cloud there. Without Donald or Goofy, it's already been tough on Sora from the beginning.





Again name something that Cloud has done that Sora hasnt done better. 
(Tifa doesnt count)

And Genie > KotR


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## escamoh (Sep 27, 2006)

Moondoggie said:
			
		

> Hmm, really?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe my eyes aren't has good as they use to be. heh


Not the pole part of it >.>

The part where crown thingy sticks out. It's sharp and capable of cutting stuff.



> *Wall will be useless as Sora would rather just beat him with the Keyblade*. Haste gives you a 50% increase in speed which i still dont think he'd be able to keep up with Sora. But when Sora goes Final form his Stats double so really he would be alot faster. And hell if Sora went Anti-Sora(the fastest form in the game) Cloud wouldnt know what hit him


Wall...Barrier...whatever. Thing is Cloud has something that'll protect him from Sora's magic and physical attacks.

And in speed, jumping to the top of Shin-Ra building in seconds seems a lot faster than anything Sora's done. With the exception of that warp snipe thing but he can't use that here so whatever.



> Sora has many abilities too. Omnislash was cool looking but that doesnt mean Sora will just stand there and let it happen


Same goes for Cloud  



> Stronger- Taking hits from Hercules(when he did this he was only at 50% also), Lifting and throwing the Fire/Ice Genies, Getting hit with buildings, Hitting buildings back at people, cutting threw whole buildings not just pieces


Don't bring game mechanics and shit into this. Cloud took damage from fucking Supernova which blasted through most of the planets in the solar system. Yet both Cloud and Sora can be killed by a weak enemy if they are low on health.

So...don't bring game stuff in here. It'll make everything more confusing.



> Faster- Blocking hundreds of lasers coming from omnidirectional ways, Dodging Laser shots from Xigbar, fast enough to run up a building, kicking back laser shots from Xigbars nobodies multiple times,


Cloud has some of the same feats. He dodged gunfire from Yazoo and did all the crazy stuff when he fought Sephiroth. 



> Not to mention he has already beaten Cloud/Sephiroth in each game. He also beats Cloud/Yuffie/Tifa/Leon Solo. Not to mention he has the better looking win record beating anything from genies to frost giants


FF characters in KH =/= FF characters in their own universe.

That should be obvious if you've played both games.


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## Kai (Sep 27, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Again name something that Cloud has done that Sora hasnt done better.
> (Tifa doesnt count)
> 
> And Genie > KotR



How about summoning Phoenix? Or Neo Bahamut? Summoning disney characters is no way in hell better.

I'm not saying that Cloud wins this fight. I made it because I don't know(well against Sora in Final Form, that's unbelievable)


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## Keollyn (Sep 27, 2006)

That was a really weak retort Esca... You're saying not to use game mechanics when KH's mechanics work on a whole different mechanics than FF (key difference is turn based VS. real time)

And the majority OF Sora's feats come from substantial cutscenes that are incorporated INTO the gameplay and vice versa. 

So you saying Supernova in relation to buildings is hardly justifiable... especially when one is vastly MORE believable than the other.


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## escamoh (Sep 27, 2006)

> That was a really weak retort Esca... You're saying not to use game mechanics when KH's mechanics work on a whole different mechanics than FF (key difference is turn based VS. real time)


I was using Advent Children  You know it's not hard to apply everything in the game to AC. 



> And the majority OF Sora's feats come from substantial cutscenes that are incorporated INTO the gameplay and vice versa.


Examples?



> So you saying Supernova in relation to buildings is hardly justifiable... especially when one is vastly MORE believable than the other.


I'm saying getting hit by Supernova is a more impressive feat then getting hit by a building.


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## Shizor (Sep 27, 2006)

Sora doesn't even hit people with the crown part of the key. He hits with the other side.


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## ZergKage (Sep 27, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> Wall...Barrier...whatever. Thing is Cloud has something that'll protect him from Sora's magic and physical attacks.



Sora has barrier type spells also so.....



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> And in speed, jumping to the top of Shin-Ra building in seconds seems a lot faster than anything Sora's done. With the exception of that warp snipe thing but he can't use that here so whatever.



Huh are you kidding me, That wasnt just one jump but many jumps to reach the top, not to mention he was near the top to began with. Sora has jumping feats just like that. 



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Don't bring game mechanics and shit into this. Cloud took damage from fucking Supernova which blasted through most of the planets in the solar system. Yet both Cloud and Sora can be killed by a weak enemy if they are low on health.
> 
> So...don't bring game stuff in here. It'll make everything more confusing.



Then what are you supposed to use? Ingame mechanics are things for Classic RPG's not games like KH. Ingame mechanics would be like Cloud strikes first because he has the pre emptive strike materia or that Cloud can do 9999 damage while Sora cant. The things i listed happened and in a believeable formatt. There not ingame mechanics, there things that Sora did. 

And if your really that deperate to say Cloud can take supernova than so be it. Sora uses Genie and Genie ends this faster than you can say nimbus




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Cloud has some of the same feats. He dodged gunfire from Yazoo and did all the crazy stuff when he fought Sephiroth.



blocking a few shots coming from the same direction holds no water to blocking hundreds of shots from lazers coming from everywhere.




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> FF characters in KH =/= FF characters in their own universe.
> 
> That should be obvious if you've played both games.



Why because they lost to someone better than them? Hmmmm i wonder what company made both of these games.....


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## escamoh (Sep 27, 2006)

> Sora has barrier type spells also so.....


He only has Reflect. And I never said he doesn't have any kind of defense.



> Huh are you kidding me, That wasnt just one jump but many jumps to reach the top, not to mention he was near the top to began with. Sora has jumping feats just like that.


When Sephiroth first appears Cloud jumps all the way back up the building. 



> Then what are you supposed to use? Ingame mechanics are things for Classic RPG's not games like KH. Ingame mechanics would be like Cloud strikes first because he has the pre emptive strike materia or that Cloud can do 9999 damage while Sora cant. The things i listed happened and in a believeable formatt. There not ingame mechanics, there things that Sora did.


You said Final Form Sora is much faster than normal Sora. But when you use him in-game he's slow. That's why I said it's better to use stuff from cutscene's.



> And if your really that deperate to say Cloud can take supernova than so be it. Sora uses Genie and Genie ends this faster than you can say nimbus


First, Cloud CAN take Supernova. He's done so in the game. Second, Genie?? Wtf is this shit? In case you forgot Cloud can also summon.



> blocking a few shots coming from the same direction holds no water to blocking hundreds of shots from lazers coming from everywhere.


True. But at the same time, Cloud was fighting 2 people at once and dodging gunfire and attacking them while moving around. Sora was sitting in one spot blocking the lasers with Riku's help.



> Why because they lost to someone better than them? Hmmmm i wonder what company made both of these games.....


Um no.

Cloud and the rest were in the game because they're famous. And Sora beat them because he was stronger than the game versions. And it's not like Sora was gonna lose, he's the main character for gods sake.

And I just realized...Sephiroth in KH2 was toying with Sora the whole time. He even said Cloud is the only one who can beat him.


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 27, 2006)

Sora beat them because he was the main character. 

End of Story


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## Moondoggie (Sep 27, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> First, Cloud CAN take Supernova. He's done so in the game. Second, Genie?? Wtf is this shit? In case you forgot Cloud can also summon.


 
True Cloud can summon, but you gotta admit Genie's power is very high in the tier. A snap of the fingers and Cloud's summon is halfway across the world doing no help for Cloud.

Cheap much? Yes.
But it is a fight. heh


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## Giovanni Rild (Sep 27, 2006)

What version of cloud are you using?


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## ZergKage (Sep 27, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> He only has Reflect. And I never said he doesn't have any kind of defense..



Aeroga




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> When Sephiroth first appears Cloud jumps all the way back up the building.



Wrong. When Seph first appears Seph attacks him twice the second time Clound parried the attack and that sent him flying. Much how it did when he got hit into the building. Try again.




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> You said Final Form Sora is much faster than normal Sora. But when you use him in-game he's slow. That's why I said it's better to use stuff from cutscene's.



FF Sora isnt not slower than regular Sora so what are you taking about. again thats not ingame mechanics its the facts. 




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> First, Cloud CAN take Supernova. He's done so in the game. Second, Genie?? Wtf is this shit? In case you forgot Cloud can also summon.



Yes you know Alladins Genie, he snaps his fingers and Insert happens to Cloud



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> True. But at the same time, Cloud was fighting 2 people at once and dodging gunfire and attacking them while moving around. Sora was sitting in one spot blocking the lasers with Riku's help.



Even using 2 people there were so many lasers coming at a time that its still very impressive. Even if you say 20 at a time(which it was more) thats 10 a piece to block in under/close to a second. Running up buildings(which Cloud cant do). Sora is faster. 




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Um no.
> 
> Cloud and the rest were in the game because they're famous. And Sora beat them because he was stronger than the game versions. And it's not like Sora was gonna lose, he's the main character for gods sake..



He beat them whether you like it or not. Hes stronger than any version of Cloud



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> And I just realized...Sephiroth in KH2 was toying with Sora the whole time. He even said Cloud is the only one who can beat him.



Sure, So when he wanted the Keyblade because he knew how powerful it was he must have meant that he was just going to play around and get beat right.


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## superbatman86 (Sep 28, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Aeroga
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do know that KH isn't cannon as far as all the disney and Sqaure co-stars go right?


----------



## Kai (Sep 28, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Aeroga



No, I said Sora from KH2. He doesn't have Aeroga.


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> No, I said Sora from KH2. He doesn't have Aeroga, I don't think.



So then its also only Cloud from FF7 or both FF7/AC?


----------



## Kai (Sep 28, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> So then its also only Cloud from FF7 or both FF7/AC?



I would include both.


----------



## Chatulio (Sep 28, 2006)

Nexas said:
			
		

> Kadaj managed to perform a high level summoning in seconds what makes you think Cloud could do any less.



You forget Kadaj is infused with Jenova cells and embraces the power which gives him teh ability to summon faster. 

Cloud vs. Sora hmm. If this is AC Cloud he can keep up with Soras acrobatics. Sora would be the faster swordsman but Cloud would have more strength in his attacks.  If Sora gains his form abilities he wins against cloud. Otherwise i see it as a close fight.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> He only has Reflect. And I never said he doesn't have any kind of defense.



"Only" reflect...you do realize that reflect costs a rather small amount of mp, and that *it can completely block and return damage from any attack right*?  Reflect could protect Sora from Meteor if he used it as it started to hit him.

Not to mention that mp hastega means that Sora only has a small window of time where he can be hit by powerful attacks like summons or magic.  I'd say Cloud would either run out of mp, or die from the reflected damage beforehand though.


----------



## Shizor (Sep 28, 2006)

Kage no Yume said:
			
		

> Reflect could protect Sora from Meteor if he used it as it started to hit him.



     

Got any proof that it can repel meteor? No? I thought so.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Sep 28, 2006)

Shizor said:
			
		

> Got any proof that it can repel meteor? No? I thought so.



Sora's reflect can block everything.  

It doesn't matter how strong the attack is, as long as Sora times it right he can null all damage and send it back at any opponents within his range.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 28, 2006)

Kage no Yume said:
			
		

> Sora's reflect can block everything.
> 
> It doesn't matter how strong the attack is, as long as Sora times it right he can null all damage and send it back at any opponents within his range.



Can you say "No - limits fallacy"?


----------



## superbatman86 (Sep 28, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Says?......


Common sense?


----------



## Leader G Zer0 (Sep 28, 2006)

tie. cloud has mastereed all skills and so has sora with final form.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

> Aeroga


Read the title of the thread.



> Wrong. When Seph first appears Seph attacks him twice the second time Clound parried the attack and that sent him flying. Much how it did when he got hit into the building. Try again.


You're right.



> FF Sora isnt not slower than regular Sora so what are you taking about. again thats not ingame mechanics its the facts.


He seemed a lot slower to me when I was controlling him. All he does is hover around.



> Yes you know Alladins Genie, he snaps his fingers and Insert happens to Cloud


Genie had that attack in the game? Then how come we couldn't wish all the enemies away??



> Even using 2 people there were so many lasers coming at a time that its still very impressive. Even if you say 20 at a time(which it was more) thats 10 a piece to block in under/close to a second. Running up buildings(which Cloud cant do). Sora is faster.


When did I say it wasn't impressive?

And yeah Cloud can run up buildings. If he can jump that fucking high I don't see how he wouldn't be able to run up one. And Sora wasn't exactly moving fast when he ran up that building....



> He beat them whether you like it or not. Hes stronger than any version of Cloud


 nice argument.



> Sure, So when he wanted the Keyblade because he knew how powerful it was he must have meant that he was just going to play around and get beat right.


In case you didn't know, Sora and the Keyblade are not the same being.

Re-watch the cutscene on Youtube.



> Says?......


That should be obvious 



> Reflect could protect Sora from Meteor if he used it as it started to hit him.


I stopped reading there.


----------



## Piekage (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> Genie had that attack in the game? Then how come we couldn't wish all the enemies away??



Cause that would make the game even easier. Assuming there are no game mechanics, then Sora could have Genie teleport Cloud to the moon or something, since they're pals and all.

Regarding the match, I can't say.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Can you say "No - limits fallacy"?



Technically, by game standard, Sora DOES reverse damn near everything. That's why he's crowned the reversal king.

And yes, I know there's a limit... I'm just making a statement.

Edit: My fault... he was talking about a spell. I was talking about Sora's innate ability to just "Get the fuck out the way"


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

^ Just because he can reverse the attacks of some people in KH2 doesn't mean he can do it to anyone.


----------



## Moondoggie (Sep 28, 2006)

Heh, well I guess Cloud was given the advantage from the very first post.
Cloud with all skills from the games and movie....Sora just from KH2 and can't have his attacks from COM and Kingdom Hearts?

But it's Space's thread and he/she makes the rules in it. So I respect that.
But I still believe Sora could give Cloud a fight. Even with just KH2, Sora has done similar feats to Cloud. Cloud jumped up a building, Sora jumped from a piece of building about a mile to the get to where the final boss was. Sora's keyblade no matter what the shape _can _cut, and has shown to be able to withstand many attacks. In no way do I see Cloud dominating the fight.

But this is just my opinion.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

Yeah he'll give Cloud a fight...but I don't think he can win.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> ^ Just because he can reverse the attacks of some people in KH2 doesn't mean he can do it to anyone.





			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> Technically, by game standard, Sora DOES reverse damn near everything. That's why he's crowned the reversal king.
> 
> *And yes, I know there's a limit... I'm just making a statement.*
> 
> Edit: My fault... he was talking about a spell. I was talking about Sora's innate ability to just "Get the fuck out the way"



I guess you missed the bold part, huh?


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

Moondoggie said:
			
		

> Heh, well I guess Cloud was given the advantage from the very first post.
> Cloud with all skills from the games and movie....Sora just from KH2 and can't have his attacks from COM and Kingdom Hearts?
> 
> But it's Space's thread and he/she makes the rules in it. So I respect that.
> ...



Allowing one character access to more than one of his incarnations and restricting the other to just one.

Thread creators who start out biased....

I respect YOU (Moon) for actually respecting something like that.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

^ There's only one version of Sora 



> I guess you missed the bold part, huh?


It wasn't bold in your post lol.

But refer to this:



> Sora is the new undisputed reversal king. The majority of what Cloud does WILL get dodged or reversed by Sora


----------



## Moondoggie (Sep 28, 2006)

@Keollyn: Well thank you. ^^

@esca3: If you want to use appearance has versions, I believe I could easily say KH1 and KH2 Sora look completely different. heh

But otherwise Sora has a completely different move set in the different games. There are a bunch of attacks Sora could use to help from COM, Final Mix, and the original KH.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

And there's only one version of Cloud (at least from FF7 and AC) yet he's allowed to mix and mingle... but yet Sora can't use skills from KH1 because he doesn't use them in KH2? Are you hearing yourself?

About the quote... Well you should have made that known. Don't reply to a post I made on the FIRST page when my reply came from something you said on page FOUR.

And as for that post... I guess you missed the part when I said MAJORITY. You just keep missing things, huh?


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

> And there's only one version of Cloud (at least from FF7 and AC) yet he's allowed to mix and mingle... but yet Sora can't use skills from KH1 because he doesn't use them in KH2? Are you hearing yourself?


AC Cloud and FFVII Cloud are definetly different versions. And then there's KH Cloud and Ehergeiz Cloud though I don't know shit about him.

And....read what the thread starter said. Looks like you're the one who keeps missing stuff 



> About the quote... Well you should have made that known. Don't reply to a post I made on the FIRST page when my reply came from something you said on page FOUR.


Ok.



> And as for that post... I guess you missed the part when I said MAJORITY. You just keep missing things, huh?


No I knew it was there.

But majority means almost everything. Which means, almost all of Cloud's attacks. Which is total bullshit.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

Keollyn, can Sora defend/Deflect Omnislash?


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Can you say "No - limits fallacy"?



It blocks everything in the game including Sephiroths Meteor. 



			
				Shizor said:
			
		

> Got any proof that it can repel meteor? No? I thought so.



Like i said it blocks everything including Sephiroths Meteor



			
				superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Common sense?



So your saying you have no proof?




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Read the title of the thread.



Its a continuing story....Sora in KH2(atleast to me) implies that your using KH1/KH2




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> You're right.



I know




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> He seemed a lot slower to me when I was controlling him. All he does is hover around.



Then you need to replay the game




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Genie had that attack in the game? Then how come we couldn't wish all the enemies away??



Genie has alot of attacks in the game. Do you forget after Genie Jafar destoryed the town he fixed everything with the snap of his fingers. The reason he didnt just wish away everyone is because nobody wants to play Kingdom Genie 2 where he just wishes everyone away and games over.




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> When did I say it wasn't impressive?
> 
> And yeah Cloud can run up buildings. If he can jump that fucking high I don't see how he wouldn't be able to run up one. And Sora wasn't exactly moving fast when he ran up that building....



So Cloud can do something he hasnt been shown to do. WOW. Can he fly too? Grow 50ft tall? Sora ran up a building. Fact. Cloud cant. Fact. Guess which person would be faster.




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> nice argument.



The truth hurts doesnt it.




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> In case you didn't know, Sora and the Keyblade are not the same being.
> Re-watch the cutscene on Youtube.



Why should i watch it again. I actually played it quite a few times myself. Sephiroth wanted the keyblade for himself and he took a beating for it. Just because you dont kill him doesnt mean you cant. 




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> That should be obvious



If its so obvious then you should be able to get proof right?




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> I stopped reading there.



Does it pain people so much that you block meteor with reflect



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> ^ Just because he can reverse the attacks of some people in KH2 doesn't mean he can do it to anyone.



And just because Cloud can jump doesnt mean he can run up a wall


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> Keollyn, can Sora defend/Deflect Omnislash?



Can Sora Defend/Deflect Omnislash?


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> Keollyn, can Sora defend/Deflect Omnislash?



Depends. Which one are we talking about. I mean, people have the notion that FF7 Cloud means "AC Cloud with all his materia obtained in Final Fantasy"


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> Can Sora Defend/Deflect Omnislash?



Reflect blocks Physical and Magic attacks.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> AC Cloud and FFVII Cloud are definetly different versions. And then there's KH Cloud and Ehergeiz Cloud though I don't know shit about him.
> 
> And....read what the thread starter said. Looks like you're the one who keeps missing stuff
> 
> ...



AC Cloud and FF7 Cloud are, by no means, different Clouds. I mean, unless you're telling me that AC isn't a sequel to FF7? 

Actually, majority means the greater of two numbers. I could be talking about 60 percent of his moves, you know.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Depends. Which one are we talking about. I mean, people have the notion that FF7 Cloud means "AC Cloud with all his materia obtained in Final Fantasy"



AC is a canon sequal to FF7. They have a point.


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> AC is a canon sequal to FF7. They have a point.



AC Cloud also has no materia so to combine both is the best of both worlds.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> AC is a canon sequal to FF7. They have a point.



Wait, am I to understand that KH2 isn't a sequel to KH1? Because denying Sora Aeroga, but allowing AC Cloud materia sounds JUST like that.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

That's the Rockman/Zelda Effect. their powers change every game.

It would seem unfair and pointless to Give Megaman every Maverick power and armor ever.

Even though people give Link the skills and powers of all Links


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

Why do I even bother replying to you 



> It blocks everything in the game including Sephiroths Meteor.


Wow. Just wow.

>.>



> Like i said it blocks everything including Sephiroths Meteor


Sephiroth never used Meteor in KH2 >.>



> So your saying you have no proof?


Are you seriously saying that KH2 is canon in the FF universe?

Then what the fuck is Aeris doing there?



> Then you need to replay the game


No. You're the one that needs to re-play the game.

After that you have to play FFVII. And then you have to watch FFVII:AC.



> Genie has alot of attacks in the game. Do you forget after Genie Jafar destoryed the town he fixed everything with the snap of his fingers. The reason he didnt just wish away everyone is because nobody wants to play Kingdom Genie 2 where he just wishes everyone away and games over.


In other words Genie has never used those powers in combat. So I'm not gonna expect him to suddenly start doing that stuff.



> So Cloud can do something he hasnt been shown to do. WOW. Can he fly too? Grow 50ft tall? Sora ran up a building. Fact. Cloud cant. Fact. Guess which person would be faster.


LOL. You're saying Sora is faster because he can run up a building?  Nice.


> The truth hurts doesnt it.


You're stupidity is the only thing that's hurting me here >.>



> Why should i watch it again. I actually played it quite a few times myself. Sephiroth wanted the keyblade for himself and he took a beating for it. Just because you dont kill him doesnt mean you cant.


So you missed the whole point of my post. 



> If its so obvious then you should be able to get proof right?






> Does it pain people so much that you block meteor with reflect


GO FUCKING PLAY FFVII. 



> And just because Cloud can jump doesnt mean he can run up a wall


Why the hell did you quote my post for that? I was talking about something completely different.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

Sepi did use metor in KH 1. and we are not limiting the fighters by game rules. They are IC


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

> AC Cloud and FF7 Cloud are, by no means, different Clouds. I mean, unless you're telling me that AC isn't a sequel to FF7?


Same Cloud but their move were much different. Different weapon, no materia, and fighting in a completely different way than in FFVII.



> Actually, majority means the greater of two numbers. I could be talking about 60 percent of his moves, you know.


Which is still bullshit.



> Sepi did use metor in KH 1. and we are not limiting the fighters by game rules. They are IC


No he didn't.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> Same Cloud but their move were much different. Different weapon, no materia, and fighting in a completely different way than in FFVII.
> 
> Materia exsisted in AC. Cloud never used any.








			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> No he didn't.



He did when he was about to die


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> That's the Rockman/Zelda Effect. their powers change every game.
> 
> It would seem unfair and pointless to Give Megaman every Maverick power and armor ever.
> 
> Even though people give Link the skills and powers of all Links



Regardless, using AC Cloud feats and then saying he got materia only obtainable in FF7 is a double standard. FF7 Cloud doesn't have AC Cloud feats and therefore, should not be used AT ALL... 

But you know what... personally I don't care. Using AC Cloud WITH materia is pretty much harder for the supporters of Cloud to debate. I mean, have we seen the more melee style Cloud incorporate materia in his fighting in AC? With Sora and having a real-time battle.. we see that. Much more easier to debate with.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

> He did when he was about to die


That attack was not Meteor.

@Keollyn, Space already said we're using both FFVII and AC Cloud. Don't try to change the rules.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Regardless, using AC Cloud feats and then saying he got materia only obtainable in FF7 is a double standard. FF7 Cloud doesn't have AC Cloud feats and therefore, should not be used AT ALL...
> 
> But you know what... personally I don't care. Using AC Cloud WITH materia is pretty much harder for the supporters of Cloud to debate. I mean, have we seen the more melee style Cloud incorporate materia in his fighting in AC? With Sora and having a real-time battle.. we see that. Much more easier to debate with.



KH Cloud is a weakling compared to the other Clouds. AC cloud didn't use materia but we know he can use it.

I say use AV/FF7 Cloud because KH cloud would get destroyed by Sora. He's no match for Sora.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> Same Cloud but their move were much different. Different weapon, no materia, and fighting in a completely different way than in FFVII.
> 
> 
> Which is still bullshit.



Same Sora, but he just ignored a few of his skills from his older games. Does that automatically mean he's NEVER done it before? 

Not really. This is one of Sora's TRAITS. This is one of his main fighting style. If you care to deny that Sora is gifted with inhumane reflexes that allow him to reverse NIGH-irreversible scenarios... than you're basically allowing me to do the same for Cloud. 

So which should I deny today? Hmm? I think I'll deny him on something that's actually close to true... his lack of summoning skill.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> That attack was not Meteor.
> 
> @Keollyn, Space already said we're using both FFVII and AC Cloud. Don't try to change the rules.



I don't give a damn about biased rules. Besides, I once again, address this to you.



			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> But you know what... personally I don't care. Using AC Cloud WITH materia is pretty much harder for the supporters of Cloud to debate. I mean, have we seen the more melee style Cloud incorporate materia in his fighting in AC? With Sora and having a real-time battle.. we see that. Much more easier to debate with.



Mix and match would be much more harder on the Cloud supporters. I mean... do you think he's going to melee, melee, melee, bust out a summon from his ass?


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> Why do I even bother replying to you



Because your on a debating forum would be my best guess



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Sephiroth never used Meteor in KH2 >.>



I'll just post this once microchipped 
Time around 4:39 GG



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Are you seriously saying that KH2 is canon in the FF universe?
> 
> Then what the fuck is Aeris doing there?




So bring Aeris in the game means its not canon???




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> No. You're the one that needs to re-play the game.
> 
> After that you have to play FFVII. And then you have to watch FFVII:AC.



Did you even fight Sephiroth? Did you finsh the game? Saying Seph didnt do Meteor is pretty ignorant




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> In other words Genie has never used those powers in combat. So I'm not gonna expect him to suddenly start doing that stuff.



So your saying Genie cant do anything in combat???



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> LOL. You're saying Sora is faster because he can run up a building?  Nice.



No, not just because he can run up a building.....i've listed other reasons too but you seem to think that jumping is the fastest thing know to man



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> You're stupidity is the only thing that's hurting me here >.>



Ah you know what happens when someone is losing a debate^^



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> So you missed the whole point of my post.



No he beat him. That is the point that you cant grasp.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3, you're acting illogical and arrogant, you need to listen to the opinions of others.

You're making me look downright hospitable.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

> I'll just post this once Link removed
> Time around 4:39 GG


That is not fucking Meteor for the love of god. Maybe if you had actually played FFVII you'd know.



> So bring Aeris in the game means its not canon???


Yeah. Because you know...she's dead.



> Did you even fight Sephiroth? Did you finsh the game? Saying Seph didnt do Meteor is pretty ignorant


Have you ever even played FFVII?



> So your saying Genie cant do anything in combat???


What is this?



> No, not just because he can run up a building.....i've listed other reasons too but you seem to think that jumping is the fastest thing know to man


Compare Cloud's movement in AC and Sora's and it's obvious Cloud is faster.



> Ah you know what happens when someone is losing a debate^^


You're the only one who would know.



> No he beat him. That is the point that you cant grasp.


KH Cloud =/= FFVII Cloud.

Get this through your fucking head.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

> esca3, you're acting illogical and arrogant, you need to listen to the opinions of others.
> 
> You're making me look downright hospitable.


Yeah I'm listening to their opinions and then I'm responding to them.

You know...that's what you do in a debate >.>


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

I'd say AC Cloud is a bit slower than Sora



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Yeah I'm listening to their opinions and then I'm responding to them.
> 
> You know...that's what you do in a debate >.>



You're ignoring the facts being presented to you.


----------



## Shizor (Sep 28, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> It blocks everything in the game including Sephiroths Meteor.
> 
> 
> 
> Like i said it blocks everything including Sephiroths Meteor



Sephiroths meteors from the KH series are space pebbles compared to the one in FF7.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 28, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> It blocks everything in the game including Sephiroths Meteor.



Just because it can block anything in - universe doesn't mean it could block anything out - of - universe.

Could it block Darkseid's Omega Effect?

Could it block the Light Hawk Wing Sword?

Could it block Lina Inverse's Giga Slave?

Could it block the Ultimate Nullifier?


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

Shizor said:
			
		

> Sephiroths meteors from the KH series are space pebbles compared to the one in FF7.



What does it matter? Does Cloud have access to the Black Materia? Heck, even if he does... would this be even admissible in the fight? What with it taking ages to desend...


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> That is not fucking Meteor for the love of god. Maybe if you had actually played FFVII you'd know.



Maybe you mean its not Supernova because that move is called Meteor



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Yeah. Because you know...she's dead.



So that means what? That everything that happened in KH is not true?



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Have you ever even played FFVII?.



I've played just about everything that has Cloud in it. From FF7 to Ehrgeiz to KH to FFT



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> What is this?.



You said Genie doesnt do anything in combat. I'm asking you what you mean. Whatever he has been shown to do is good to go.



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Compare Cloud's movement in AC and Sora's and it's obvious Cloud is faster..



No its not and plenty of people have stated otherwise 




			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> You're the only one who would know.



If you say so



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> KH Cloud =/= FFVII Cloud.
> 
> Get this through your fucking head.



I can accept that. Doesnt change the fact that Sora is still stronger and faster



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Just because it can block anything in - universe doesn't mean it could block anything out - of - universe.
> 
> Could it block Darkseid's Omega Effect?
> 
> ...



Considering what has blocked the OE before i dont doubt it. As far as the others go i have no clue what they are. Not that it matters, Cloud has nothing on the calibur of those attacks.

Oops i do know what the UN is.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Just because it can block anything in - universe doesn't mean it could block anything out - of - universe.
> 
> Could it block Darkseid's Omega Effect?
> 
> ...



He couldn't block it, but he sure can reverse it  

[/joke]


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Just because it can block anything in - universe doesn't mean it could block anything out - of - universe.
> 
> Could it block Darkseid's Omega Effect?
> 
> ...



Real cheap way to make a point. 

One attack is from The Presence

One attack is summinong a God


The spell can't block everything.  If it can block Cloud's attack is left up to assumption because that the best that you can do.

You can't prove it defends against cloud's attack or not.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

> Maybe you mean its not Supernova because that move is called Meteor


It's not the same Meteor from FFVII. 



> So that means what? That everything that happened in KH is not true?


Not true in the FF universe. As in Cloud, Sephy and everyone else being defeated by Sora can't really be canon for obvious reasons.



> I've played just about everything that has Cloud in it. From FF7 to Ehrgeiz to KH to FFT


And yet you still said that Reflect was capable of blocking Meteor.



> You said Genie doesnt do anything in combat. I'm asking you what you mean. Whatever he has been shown to do is good to go.


I never said that >.>

Genie never did things like wish enemies away in battle so why should I assume he's allowed to in this fight?



> No its not and plenty of people have stated otherwise


>.>



> If you say so


Ok.



> I can accept that. Goesnt change the fact that Sora is still stronger and faster


<.<


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

KH1 fire bolt looks different from KH2. That doesnt mean its different. It was incorperated into a realtime game. Doesnt make it different.

Again why not? If you say that then it would be the same for every world they went to and therefore the game wouldnt be canon at all. 

I'm sorry you cant tell that that was Meteor but it was. Go read the offical strat guide and see what they call that attack

What Genie does in the game is canon. and Can be used in a fight


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

> KH1 fire bolt looks different from KH2. That doesnt mean its different. It was incorperated into a realtime game. Doesnt make it different.


What the hell does this have to do with anything?



> Again why not? If you say that then it would be the same for every world they went to and therefore the game wouldnt be canon at all.


Um what? You're saying that since Sora beat Cloud in KH he can beat AC Cloud which is not true. The FF character's in KH are not canon. Dunno about the Disney people but I could care less.



> I'm sorry you cant tell that that was Meteor but it was. Go read the offical strat guide and see what they call that attack


Sephiroth summoning Meteor in FFVII

Sephiroth using Meteor attack in KHII



> What Genie does in the game is canon. and Can be used in a fight


Says who? He never used it in battle so like I said a million times already he's not using it here imo.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 28, 2006)

Truth be told... Meteor in KH > Meteor in FF7. At least in my opinion. 

Smaller, weaker and faster (about a few seconds) VS. Larger, stronger and slower (days?) is a curbstomp in my eyes (in favor of the first one)


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> Says who? He never used it in battle so like I said a million times already he's not using it here imo.




Who says you make that choice? He used it, that's all that matters and Genie is capable of so much more.


----------



## Kai (Sep 28, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> Who says you make that choice? He used it, that's all that matters and Genie is capable of so much more.



But he hasn't. Which concludes that you don't know 100% for sure that he can.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> But he hasn't. Which concludes that you don't know 100% for sure that he can.



I'm sayin that we should use anything that KH Genie has ever done as canon.


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> Um what? You're saying that since Sora beat Cloud in KH he can beat AC Cloud which is not true. The FF character's in KH are not canon. Dunno about the Disney people but I could care less.



So everyone else is canon besides the FF crew. Care to explain why?



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Sephiroth summoning Meteor in FFVII
> 
> Sephiroth using Meteor attack in KHII.



Well both are meteor. The one that Seph uses in KH1/2 and the one used in majority of FF games is meteor. That one there is a meteor, that the black materia allows him to summon, which takes what days??. What would be the point of even bring'n that up? Can Cloud even do that? No. Ok.



			
				esca3 said:
			
		

> Says who? He never used it in battle so like I said a million times already he's not using it here imo.



Feats are feats and him doing anything is canon. Cutscenes and ingame feats are all the same when its an adventure/RPG


You still have yet to show how Cloud is faster or stronger than base Sora or how he could win.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

Are we clear on these things?

KH Genie as well as any other KH characters is canon. 

Sora only has his KH 2 magic. Reason? Merlin tells Sora that he forgot all his 
spells while in deep sleep

Meteria are like items, so what Meteria does Cloud have?

Hope I settled the KH magic thing.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

> So everyone else is canon besides the FF crew. Care to explain why?


Omfg are you serious? I can answer this with one word: Aeris. She's dead, therefore her appearence in KH is non-canon.



> Well both are meteor. The one that Seph uses in KH1/2 and the one used in majority of FF games is meteor. That one there is a meteor, that the black materia allows him to summon, which takes what days??. What would be the point of even bring'n that up? Can Cloud even do that? No. Ok.


 THEY ARE 2 DIFFERENT ATTACKS WITH THE SAME NAME!

And I didn't bring Meteor up. Kage no Yume did when he said Reflect could block Meteor. And then YOU elaborated on his post and then I responded to you.



> Feats are feats and him doing anything is canon. Cutscenes and ingame feats are all the same when its an adventure/RPG


Whatever...it's not like we're gonna change each others mind's here. I'm just going by what Geinie actually DID while fighting...



> You still have yet to show how Cloud is faster or stronger than base Sora or how he could win.


KotR = dead Sora >.>


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

Cutsence should be used as feats. The characters are fighting, not two gamers


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

I never said cutscene's shouldn't be used as feats.

Genie though never used magic like that to win in a fight so I don't see why he should be allowed to now. We should just use the attacks he actually USES in the game.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> I never said cutscene's shouldn't be used as feats.
> 
> Genie though never used magic like that to win in a fight so I don't see why he should be allowed to now. We should just use the attacks he actually USES in the game.



But we know KH Genie is capable of most of the things Disney genie is. Playing story mode tells you that


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

You forgot to change your font!


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> You forgot to change your font!



There, fixed but Genie does amazing crap in the story.


----------



## Moondoggie (Sep 28, 2006)

In Kingdom Hearts 1 and COM Genie just wished away the attacking Heartless in a cutscene.
That would be considered a fight, but no KH or COM so I guess Genie suddenly forgot how to do that in KH2. hehe


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

Sora summons Genie KotR vanishes or Sora just dodges the attack


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

@Rild, Yes he does. But whatever...I don't think it should be applied in a fight but that's my opinion.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Sora summons Genie KotR vanishes



That's another argument. Can Genie's Magic work on a magical being of equal or greater power I'm assuming?


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> That's another argument. Can Genie's Magic work on a magical being of equal or greater power I'm assuming?



Equal or greater power, i'd say no. But KotR is not a magical being of = or > Genie.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

^ Proof??

Btw, did you guys like the pic of the lamb/sheep whatever I posted


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 28, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> ^ Proof??
> 
> Btw, did you guys like the pic of the lamb/sheep whatever I posted



I thought it was tasteless.


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 28, 2006)

The proof would be on you. You have to prove they are on par with Genie.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 28, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> I thought it was tasteless.


You must be vegetarian.


----------



## Kai (Sep 29, 2006)

Why do I have the feeling this battle is becoming Cloud vs Genie?


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 29, 2006)

Because Sora already beat Cloud....


----------



## escamoh (Sep 29, 2006)

^ In your head.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 29, 2006)

I would hope so. I cannot type "Because Sora already beat Cloud" without it processing there first...


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 29, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> Why do I have the feeling this battle is becoming Cloud vs Genie?



Its already been established that Sora is faster and stronger than Cloud so the only way for Cloud to try and win is to cast a Summon. If he does this then Sora cast Genie. Its not Cloud vs Genie its _Insert Summon Here_ vs Genie


----------



## Kai (Sep 29, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Its already been established that Sora is faster and stronger than Cloud so the only way for Cloud to try and win is to cast a Summon. If he does this then Sora cast Genie. Its not Cloud vs Genie its _Insert Summon Here_ vs Genie



Alright then. New rule: No summons allowed. 

Re-discuss.


----------



## Pink Floyd (Sep 29, 2006)

Cloud.

He's older, more experienced, killed Sephy single handedly.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 29, 2006)

The Unforgiven said:
			
		

> Cloud.
> 
> He's older, more experienced, killed Sephy single handedly.



Older? Yes. More experienced? How so? Killed Sephiroth single handedly? Is that really a feat that puts him above Sora? Hardly.

Please try again.


----------



## Zack_Strife (Sep 29, 2006)

If Sora can use Geni to wish shit away that's pretty broken. There's no one that can beat that.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 29, 2006)

People who can resist manipulation, can. Genie, as great as he is, is still a Jinn. Jinn aren't that high in the cosmic tier considerably (Granted, they are there)


----------



## Zack_Strife (Sep 29, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> People who can resist manipulation, can. Genie, as great as he is, is still a Jinn. Jinn aren't that high in the cosmic tier considerably (Granted, they are there)



Indeed. Well the issue is then how easy are summons and Cloud to manipulate?
To the best of my knowledge Cloud overcame his whipping boy to Sephiroth status in FF7, which was a result of a broken mind and Jenova Cells but other than that we've seen nothing to suggest Cloud is easy or impossible to manipulate.
I dunno if summons are even have minds that can be manipulated either. 
A little help anyone?


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 29, 2006)

Summons have been banished in the Final Fantasy verse already, and to someone under Genie in terms of power (Seymour, FFX) and Cloud isn't beyond manipulation. Afterall, he was mind manipulated quite easily and that's not even similar to what a wish from a Jinn could do.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 29, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> Alright then. New rule: No summons allowed.
> 
> Re-discuss.


Pwned lol.

Cloud still wins.


----------



## ZergKage (Sep 30, 2006)

Hehehehe a switch in the matrix when it doesnt favor you eh? Sora outclasses Cloud.


----------



## Zack_Strife (Sep 30, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Summons have been banished in the Final Fantasy verse already, and to someone under Genie in terms of power (Seymour, FFX) and Cloud isn't beyond manipulation. Afterall, he was mind manipulated quite easily and that's not even similar to what a wish from a Jinn could do.




Those where special circumstances. Cloud was totally gaga infuckingsane at the time, he had buried his real memories and basically made himself out to be Zack because he couldn't handle the shit Hojo put him through. His abundance of Jenova Cells also made it easy for Sephiroth to manipulate him. Getting into Cloud's mind at that point was easier than walking through an open door for Sephiroth. Even then he succesfully resisted when it matter, he didn't kill Aeris.
So by then end of the game his mind was healed and he sent Sephiroth packing. That's the only time he's been shown as easy to manipulate. When Cloud is on his game (in his own universe at least) he's unstoppable. He stopped being emo and single handly fucked up Bahamut, then he proceeded to rampage all over Loz and Yazoo while he still had his Geostigma. That says a lot about his willpower to me. However, I'm not at all knowledgable about the full extent of Sora's or Geni's powers because I've yet to even complete KH1.


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 30, 2006)

But that doesn't help disprove a cosmic entity the ability to wisk you away. Cloud is not beyond manipulation of that sort. Unless your telling me that Cloud has some type of cosmic power hidden within him...


----------



## ~Shin~ (Sep 30, 2006)

Without summons i go with Cloud with omnislash ftw.


----------



## tanukibeast (Sep 30, 2006)

reflect could still handle omnislash.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Sep 30, 2006)

^WHAT?
Can u pls explain how reflect even affects omnislash?


----------



## Keollyn (Sep 30, 2006)

I'd like to know how Omnislahs will affect Sora to begin with.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 30, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> I'd like to know how Omnislahs will affect Sora to begin with.



I guess with the cutting and the maiming and the slashing.


----------



## Falco-san (Oct 2, 2006)

Firemind said:
			
		

> Without summons i go with Cloud with omnislash ftw.




Sure, with cloud running up to sora screaming, sora will just stand there and eat the Omnislash?

Sora would just, you know, step outa the way?


----------



## Kai (Oct 2, 2006)

I just unlocked Final Form in my game.... it's crazy.


----------



## Zack_Strife (Oct 2, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> But that doesn't help disprove a cosmic entity the ability to wisk you away. Cloud is not beyond manipulation of that sort. Unless your telling me that Cloud has some type of cosmic power hidden within him...



You only mentioned being able to resist manipulation as being needed to stop from being wished away to begin with.


----------



## Keollyn (Oct 2, 2006)

And you thought I was implying to just the mind? That would mean that only Cloud's brain will not get wisked away.

Obviously, there's more to manipulation resist than just mental...


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Oct 2, 2006)

what did Sephy say in KH2? You are good, but you cannot defeat me...

the only one that could is Cloud...


----------



## Keollyn (Oct 2, 2006)

Sephiroth didn't fight Final Form Sora, that's why...


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 2, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> I just unlocked Final Form in my game.... it's crazy.



Cool  What do you think about it?

Also means your nearing the end, have you beaten it yet?


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 2, 2006)

This is stupid.

Cloud is unbeatable with all 3 complete sets of MM's combined with Final attack, W-Summon and Omnislash, please...he would eat Sora for breakfast.


----------



## hao_asakura (Oct 2, 2006)

sora in final form? i guess he could defeat cloud

i defeat cloud in kh1 with sora


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 2, 2006)

[Uchiha]Madara said:
			
		

> This is stupid.
> 
> Cloud is unbeatable with all 3 complete sets of MM's combined with Final attack, W-Summon and Omnislash, please...he would eat Sora for breakfast.



What would he have for lunch and dinner?


----------



## Shizor (Oct 2, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> What would he have for lunch and dinner?



For lunch he would have Sephiroth, and for dinner he'd have Tifa


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 2, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> What would he have for lunch and dinner?



Emerald and Ruby weapon, Sephiroth for dessert

Edit: So it's this order =>

Sora - breakfast
Emerald - lunch
Ruby - dinner
Sephiroth - dessert


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 2, 2006)

*ahem* Tifa is DESSERT!!!! 

In all seriousness Madara, W-Summon and Final Attack are ingame mechanics and dont work in a fight. You need to come up with another way


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 2, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> *ahem* Tifa is DESSERT!!!!



lol okeoke but what about Aeris then? double dessert perhaps?


----------



## Keollyn (Oct 2, 2006)

[Uchiha]Madara said:
			
		

> This is stupid.
> 
> *Cloud is unbeatable* with all 3 complete sets of MM's combined with Final attack, W-Summon and Omnislash, please...he would eat Sora for breakfast.



Oh really?


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 2, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> *ahem* Tifa is DESSERT!!!!
> 
> In all seriousness Madara, W-Summon and Final Attack are ingame mechanics and dont work in a fight. You need to come up with another way



Ok look, I never played KH 2 so I can't say much about Sora's FF, but I did play the 1st part and he was just a stupid kid running with a key, it's not realistic to compare him to Cloud wich has experience in sword skills and assassination.

You say all those things are ingame mechanics, well that may be true, but what about Sora's FF then? Also the threadstarter included Cloud with all skills mastered wich I understand with all Mastered Materia...

Generally speaking I can't say much about that, but seeing that realistically I would say that Cloud would win easy...

And it's difficult to compare those 2 things, for example: Sora would win vs. Cloud in KH game but would get ass kicked by Cloud in FF, see my point?


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 2, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Oh really?



In FF he is


----------



## Keollyn (Oct 2, 2006)

You mean FF*7*?


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 3, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> You mean FF*7*?



That's what I meant.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 3, 2006)

W-Summon + Mimic + Knights of the Round

Never fails me against the weapons and Sephiroth. Master Materia makes it sweeter.

Haven't got around playing KH though. . . gameplay doesn't interests me much. I usually watch the cutscenes when my brother plays.


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 3, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> W-Summon + Mimic + Knights of the Round
> 
> Never fails me against the weapons and Sephiroth. Master Materia makes it sweeter.
> 
> Haven't got around playing KH though. . . gameplay doesn't interests me much. I usually watch the cutscenes when my brother plays.



The best thing I liked in KH is that you get to fight vs. Cloud, Squall and Sephiroth and Sephiroth is the Ultimate optional boss, pretty cool, but once you figure it out how to beat him it's easy, but still...his voice and skills are always nice to see, after all...he's the Chosen One


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Oct 3, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> W-Summon + Mimic + Knights of the Round
> 
> Never fails me against the weapons and Sephiroth. Master Materia makes it sweeter.
> 
> Haven't got around playing KH though. . . gameplay doesn't interests me much. I usually watch the cutscenes when my brother plays.



I like live action RPG's. That why one of my favorite RPG's are KH and the Tales series. Final Fantasy bores me and I don't like then at all. I love Dragon Quest, Suikoden, and others RPG.


----------



## superbatman86 (Oct 3, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> W-Summon + Mimic + Knights of the Round
> 
> Never fails me against the weapons and Sephiroth. Master Materia makes it sweeter.
> 
> Haven't got around playing KH though. . . gameplay doesn't interests me much. I usually watch the cutscenes when my brother plays.


If you ever played Devil May Cry or God of War you'd crush this game.


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 3, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> If you ever played Devil May Cry or God of War you'd crush this game.



Not true, DMC 1st part is good because it's hard, especially on "Dante Must Die" mode but all the rest sux, it's too easy, GoW has good graphics and gameplay but dunno, somehow I liked DMC more and also those games aren't considered real RPG, it's rather action-adventure, sort of TR style...

Nothing beats FF when it comes to storyline and gameplay


----------



## Shizor (Oct 3, 2006)

[Uchiha]Madara said:
			
		

> Nothing beats FF when it comes to storyline and gameplay



Storyline, I agree.

Gameplay... well, they do have great gameplay for a traditional RPG, but let's face it, it's not for everyone.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Oct 3, 2006)

i still dont think this is a contest...Sephiroth himself stated that Sora couldnt beat him...and that means a fully powered KH2 Sora just made sephy laugh and brush off some dust...and you may be able to beat Cloud, but in canon material(as in the Manga) Cloud whoops your ass...


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 3, 2006)

BladeofTheChad said:
			
		

> i still dont think this is a contest...Sephiroth himself stated that Sora couldnt beat him...and that means a fully powered KH2 Sora just made sephy laugh and brush off some dust...and you may be able to beat Cloud, but in canon material(as in the Manga) Cloud whoops your ass...



1. Sora never wanted to kill/hurt Sephiroth. Cloud told him before if he ran into Sephiroth to get him. Sephiroth started the fight and Sora only defended himself. If Sora had wanted to he could have killed him.

2. You beat Sephiroth in KH1 

3. It was not a fully powered Sora that beat Sephiroth in KH1 and it was not a fully powered Sora that beat Sora in KH2

4. The game is Canon since it came first and the manga is based off the game.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Oct 3, 2006)

the manga is canon, you cant count optional bosses as story relevant...


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Oct 3, 2006)

I don't think optional boss fights are canon most of the time.


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 3, 2006)

No its not. The original material is canon. The game is the original material


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Oct 3, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> No its not. The original material is canon. The game is the original material



Even KH1 sepi fight, which had nada to do with the story?


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 3, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:
			
		

> Even KH1 sepi fight, which had nada to do with the story?



There was a point to it. He was fighting in the Coliseum so he could become a hero instead of Jr hero


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Oct 3, 2006)

but it was only optional, it had nothing to do with the story...


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 3, 2006)

Yes it does. In KH1 the whole reason the Coliseum is there is to test Sora's abilities and for him to become a hero instead of a jr hero. He is being tested by Phil that is the point. Sephiroth was apart of that test, and he lost for it.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Oct 3, 2006)

but its not apart fo the main story, Sephiroth wasnt even i the first version of the game, he was only later added to the American release...


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 3, 2006)

So what if its not apart of the main story. It's still apart of the story and happened. Not to mention hes beaten cloud plenty of times and Cloud > Sephiroth


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 3, 2006)

Sephiroth is an optional boss and NOT a part of the game. Same goes for the Ice Golem, Phantom and that stupid robot in the desert (forgot the name).

Shizor I agree in your last part of sentence, but in the end, every1 got his own opinion, some like it some don't. It also has great influence based on wich game people started 1st, those that started with FF and followed are more likely to stick to it more than with others. My fav. RPGs so far are FF and Baldur's gate. Both have excellent storyline and gameplay.

Basically Sora would have no chance vs. neither Cloud nor Sephiroth. It's like this Sephiroth>Cloud>Sora. Cloud was also infused with Jenova cells (2000 year old specie) just like Sephiroth though Sephiroth much more, I really doubt Sora would win.


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 3, 2006)

I've already proved why Sora is faster, stronger, more durable, but yet you keep say Sephiroth/Cloud wins with out mentioning how. Magic wont work since Sora will simply reflect it. In FinalForm he is stronger, faster, more durable(than base Sora) and has 2 swords.


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 3, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> I've already proved why Sora is faster, stronger, more durable, but yet you keep say Sephiroth/Cloud wins with out mentioning how. Magic wont work since Sora will simply reflect it. In FinalForm he is stronger, faster, more durable(than base Sora) and has 2 swords.



lol your including ingame features of KH, well if that's the case then how about including those of FF7 as well? Like putting Final Attack combined with Phoenix then W-Summon with KOTR, that way Cloud cannot die...

At least put it a fair fight, either both with 'games' feature or both without, either way Cloud wins with eyes closed...


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 3, 2006)

Yes KH is an action/adventure RPG. In A/A RPG's things they do in the game are consider canon. In Classic/turn based RPGs, you have things like final attack,pre-emptive strike which in a fight where you dont take turns doesnt matter because if you die you dont get last strike. <---Are called ingame mechanics. FF Sora is like SS Goku and the topic starter said its ok and as well Cloud knows all magic from the game.

Do you kinda understand what i'm saying? Maybe i can put this better but i'm not that great with words.


----------



## Shizor (Oct 3, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Yes KH is an action/adventure RPG. In A/A RPG's things they do in the game are consider canon. In Classic/turn based RPGs, you have things like final attack,pre-emptive strike which in a fight where you dont take turns doesnt matter because if you die you dont get last strike. <---Are called ingame mechanics. FF Sora is like SS Goku and the topic starter said its ok and as well Cloud knows all magic from the game.
> 
> Do you kinda understand what i'm saying? Maybe i can put this better but i'm not that great with words.



How is FF sora anything _close_ to SS goku? 

You guys are overrating final form waaaaaay too much. So what, Sora floats and his keyblades hover around him, so what? Cloud can make his swords float, as seen in AC.

Final form is not even close to Goku right after training with King Kai.


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 3, 2006)

Shizor said:
			
		

> How is FF sora anything _close_ to SS goku?
> 
> You guys are overrating final form waaaaaay too much. So what, Sora floats and his keyblades hover around him, so what? Cloud can make his swords float, as seen in AC.
> 
> Final form is not even close to Goku right after training with King Kai.



I'm not comparing is to SS that is silly. I'm saying its a power boost like SS. And not ingame mechanics


----------



## Keollyn (Oct 3, 2006)

CLoud made his sword float in AC?


----------



## Shizor (Oct 3, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> CLoud made his sword float in AC?



he made like 5 of them float, did you not see his omnislash on Sephy?


----------



## Keollyn (Oct 3, 2006)

Oh wow... he did it with a limit. I'm thinking you're talking about during NORMAL circumstances such as Final Form Sora. You know, where the swords float REGARDLESS of what he does.


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 3, 2006)

Shizor said:
			
		

> he made like 5 of them float, did you not see his omnislash on Sephy?



I think that wasn't Omnislash, the original Omnislash is done with 1 Sword and does 15 hits. The move "limit break" in AC is a new one that doesn't show up in the game.

ZergKage I understand what you mean but as Shizor said the best thing to see how Cloud strong is, is to watch AC, he's also floating around, has much strenght, speed, stamina and special moves like those "flying swords".

In the end Sora is just a kid running around with Disney characters with a key lol.


----------



## Shizor (Oct 3, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Oh wow... he did it with a limit. I'm thinking you're talking about during NORMAL circumstances such as Final Form Sora. You know, where the swords float REGARDLESS of what he does.



Floating weapons are floating weapons. What's your point?


----------



## Keollyn (Oct 3, 2006)

Shizor said:
			
		

> Floating weapons are floating weapons. What's your point?



That you mentioning Cloud sword float also (trying desperately to have Cloud equal Sora in any way you can) was kind of pathetic.


----------



## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 3, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> That you mentioning Cloud sword float also (trying desperately to have Cloud equal Sora in any way you can) was kind of pathetic.



It's not pathetic, it's a fact. Cloud can fly and make his swords fly.


----------



## Piekage (Oct 3, 2006)

[Uchiha]Madara said:
			
		

> I think that wasn't Omnislash, the original Omnislash is done with 1 Sword and does 15 hits. The move "limit break" in AC is a new one that doesn't show up in the game.
> 
> ZergKage I understand what you mean but as Shizor said the best thing to see how Cloud strong is, is to watch AC, he's also floating around, has much strenght, speed, stamina and special moves like those "flying swords".
> 
> In the end Sora is just a kid running around with Disney characters with a key lol.



That was Omnislash. A new version of it, but Omnislash nontheless.

And Sora isn't just 'some kid running around' as you put it. And that key is one of the most powerful weapons in the KH verse. Even Sephiroth wanted it. That kid cuts building into pieces and jumps skyscrapers with ease.

Is anyone going to make a case in Cloud's favor? Most of what I've heard from Cloud supporters is Cloud wins easily...

EDIT:Keollyn, what's up with your sig? I could have sworn it was different in another thread.


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## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 4, 2006)

Uhm yeah your probably right that Sephiroth would change his legendary Masamune sword wich only him can use for a key. Sure...right on.

Most of what you heard "Cloud wins easly", k...same with Sora supporters so you gotta come up with something too. Look at AC again "final battle" and I'm sure you'll change your mind. Also if you tell me that Sora could kill Sephiroth then it's funny because when you look at AC you'll see Sephiroth's essence wich contains of his true power 1/1000. Cloud has beaten Sephiroth of his full power, Sora can't even compete...

Also how can you be sure that it was Omnislash?!


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## Piekage (Oct 4, 2006)

> Uhm yeah your probably right that Sephiroth would change his legendary Masamune sword wich only him can use for a key. Sure...right on.
> 
> Most of what you heard "Cloud wins easly", k...same with Sora supporters so you gotta come up with something too. Look at AC again "final battle" and I'm sure you'll change your mind. Also if you tell me that Sora could kill Sephiroth then it's funny because when you look at AC you'll see Sephiroth's essence wich contains of his true power 1/1000. Cloud has beaten Sephiroth of his full power, Sora can't even compete...
> 
> Also how can you be sure that it was Omnislash?!



Ah sarcasm. Gotta love it. Before you fight Sephiroth, he says "You must be it's chosen wielder. I would if it will change it's mind when I defeat you?" From that it seems obvious that Sephiroth is intrested in the Keyblade. What's more, who said he'd discard his Masamune? And Sephiroth's Masamune is far from legendary.

I never said Sora could beat Cloud. Or Sephiroth for that matter, so were did you get that? I was curious if Cloud supporters were all stream and no engine. Plenty of Sora supporters have come up with cases for Sora.  



> when you look at AC you'll see Sephiroth's essence wich contains of his true power 1/1000. Cloud has beaten Sephiroth of his full power, Sora can't even compete...



What are you talking about? Sephiroth's essence was divided between Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, that's all. Do you have any proof to back up that Sephiroth was at 100% during AC? 

And I'm sure it's Omnislash because Square Enix says it is.


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## Keollyn (Oct 4, 2006)

Piekage said:
			
		

> That was Omnislash. A new version of it, but Omnislash nontheless.
> 
> And Sora isn't just 'some kid running around' as you put it. And that key is one of the most powerful weapons in the KH verse. Even Sephiroth wanted it. That kid cuts building into pieces and jumps skyscrapers with ease.
> 
> ...



Randomize signature. It changes at every page refresh. Basically you'll see a new picture everytime a new page laods


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## Piekage (Oct 4, 2006)

Damn. That's pretty fuggin' cool.  

Mind if I ask how it's done?


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## Keollyn (Oct 4, 2006)

Using a random code generator. The one I'm using potentially has no limit to the amount of images that can be generated. Sadly, they're not accepting new members.

But there are some other scripts around.


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## Piekage (Oct 4, 2006)

Oh well. I'll be looking then. Thanks.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 4, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> Cloud(mastered all skills) vs Sora in Final Form from Kingdom Hearts II.
> 
> Discuss.



Cloud can take a Supernova level blast. They did in FF7.
Cloud with all skills means he has all enemy skills, all materia and all summons.
Cloud's base speed could be extrapulated from Advent Children: 
Cloud can easily dodge bullets like they're a joke.
Cloud dealt with someone who could easily out move highpowered bikes that were clearly going at max speed.
Cloud with the materia of Haste + Slow means him being slower, or Sora being faster doesn't matter.
AdC Cloud had pretty superhuman strength.

--
Now I don't actually know the extent of Sora because I didn't play the second KH, or that much of the first, but the above is just to say what level Cloud is at. So, basically, unless Sora can: dish out more damage then a supernova attack, fight/counter against self effecting magics, fight/counter against overpowered magics, fight/counter against Gods, has way faster then sound speed and can exhaust Clouds materia, Sora is pwned.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 4, 2006)

You mean the so - called 'supernova' that didn't even damage the earth?

The most logical explanation is that it was all an illusion.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You mean the so - called 'supernova' that didn't even damage the earth?
> 
> The most logical explanation is that it was all an illusion.



Did you even see the attack annihalating planet after planet? 

and 

prove it's an illusion. Show me/ tell me when this illusion was cast. 
---


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## Endless Mike (Oct 4, 2006)

The Chaucer Boo said:
			
		

> Did you even see the attack annihalating planet after planet?
> 
> and
> 
> ...



When he did the attack. There's absolutely no way something like that could happen and leave earth and 4 humans on it unharmed.

Besides, can't he use it multiple times? That's kind of proof it's an illusion right there, unless you want to argue he recreated all that stuff to destroy it again.

Not to mention that whole animation was added only for the American version, in the original Japanese version it only showed some stars and a weird blue light.


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## Giovanni Rild (Oct 4, 2006)

[Uchiha]Madara said:
			
		

> I think that wasn't Omnislash, the original Omnislash is done with 1 Sword and does 15 hits. The move "limit break" in AC is a new one that doesn't show up in the game.
> 
> ZergKage I understand what you mean but as Shizor said the best thing to see how Cloud strong is, is to watch AC, he's also floating around, has much strenght, speed, stamina and special moves like those "flying swords".
> 
> *In the end Sora is just a kid running around with Disney characters with a key lol.*


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> When he did the attack. There's absolutely no way something like that could happen and leave earth and 4 humans on it unharmed.
> 
> Besides, can't he use it multiple times? That's kind of proof it's an illusion right there, unless you want to argue he recreated all that stuff to destroy it again.
> 
> Not to mention that whole animation was added only for the American version, in the original Japanese version it only showed some stars and a weird blue light.



...
Summons can be summonned multiple times. For instances, Ifrit when summonned tears up the ground. This occurs each time and is done to the same ground. Moreover, this same recreation happens for each and every summon or materia, wherever applicable. The recreation then is just a means of reshowing the attack and has no basis upon the "supposed ridiculouslyness of it's reapplying effects". (That is the mecanics of the game, presumming you actually care to bring into question the recreation part.) So, basically, unless you actually believe and can prove that each time the attacks used in FF7  where recreation occurs is an illusion, there really is no basis for your wild assumptions. 

Conclusion: The reshowing/ recreation of the attacks infers nothing about the attacks strength. *It is the actual sequence of the attack which is the proof of the scale and power or ability.* How you wish to reason said recreation, or whatever, is up to you. But honestly, the true lies in one thing: *game mecanics*.


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## Keollyn (Oct 4, 2006)

Supernova..... truly an illusion cast on the FF7 supporters...


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## Endless Mike (Oct 4, 2006)

The Chaucer Boo said:
			
		

> ...
> Summons can be summonned multiple times. For instances, Ifrit when summonned tears up the ground. This occurs each time and is done to the same ground. Moreover, this same recreation happens for each and every summon or materia, wherever applicable. The recreation then is just a means of reshowing the attack and has no basis upon the "supposed ridiculouslyness of it's reapplying effects". (That is the mecanics of the game, presumming you actually care to bring into question the recreation part.) So, basically, unless you actually believe and can prove that each time the attacks used in FF7  where recreation occurs is an illusion, there really is no basis for your wild assumptions.
> 
> Conclusion: The reshowing/ recreation of the attacks infers nothing about the attacks strength. *It is the actual sequence of the attack which is the proof of the scale and power or ability.* How you wish to reason said recreation, or whatever, is up to you. But honestly, the true lies in one thing: *game mecanics*.



Let's use Occam's Razor here:

What is a more logical, simpler explanation?

A. Sephiroth destroyed the solar system, then recreated the solar system, only to destroy it again, and no matter how many times he does this, it still doesn't harm the earth or anyone on it, and after he's defeated, the earth and the solar system are fine, as if it never happened.

OR

B. It was all an illusion.

The answer is obviously B.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Let's use Occam's Razor here:
> 
> What is a more logical, simpler explanation?
> 
> ...



 What you are basically suggesting with this post is that ever single attack that has ever been shown in FF7, where some land or whatever was being recreated was an illusion. No, that is simply ridiculous. Please take your own advice: Game mecanics is the simplest explanation. Game mecanics dictates the recreation. The attacks power/ability is shown in the attack by the attack.

edit: At present, all you have is a wild assumption that the game recurringly disapproves with game mecanics.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 4, 2006)

Can you posit a more logical explanation, one that is consistent with the laws of physics and logic?


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## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Can you posit a more logical explanation, one that is consistent with the laws of physics and logic?



Hmm illusion you say? Did you even watch the end senquence of FF7? Seems like you didn't since Holy materia was activated in crisis to safe the planet from Meteor (Black materia). All the deaths of so many people and Shin-ra, it sure is an illusion, definetly is...


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## Endless Mike (Oct 4, 2006)

[Uchiha]Madara said:
			
		

> Hmm illusion you say? Did you even watch the end senquence of FF7? Seems like you didn't since Holy materia was activated in crisis to safe the planet from Meteor (Black materia). All the deaths of so many people and Shin-ra, it sure is an illusion, definetly is...



Then explain why the "planets" crumbled in a way completely inconsistent with what the laws of gravity and kinetic energy would predict.

Explain why the "comet" kept changing sizes (one shot it was only the size of Pluto, two shots later it was 1/3rd the size of Jupiter).

Explain why Jupiter exploded for no reason (if the comet already passed it by, it wasn't recieving extra energy and would logically collapse back in on itself, not explode. Especially not first shoot out faster - than - lightspeed energy beams randomly from its surface before exploding).

Explain why the debris in Saturn's rings doesn't explode until a few seconds after the comet passes it.

Explain why the sun bubbled and expanded, faster than the speed of light. (It takes light 8 minutes to reach earth).

Explain how the expanding sun actually cast light on the planets it did before it hit them, meaning that light would have be travelling faster than light. How can light travel faster than itself?

Explain how the earth was completely undamaged, and this attack was able to be activated multiple times (re - destroying everything over and over again each time).

If only a few of these problems existed, we might be able to overlook them, but all of them combined (especially the last one) kind of give credence to the fact that what we are seeing didn't actually happen.

Just for reference, here is the original Japanese version:

Link removed


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Can you posit a more logical explanation, one that is consistent with the laws of physics and logic?



Are you even being serious? Do you actually think ever single attack in FF7 where something is recreated is an illusion? Because that is what your are saying!
- Realize in this case I don't need to post shit except to show you the damn obvious doctorine of the game mecanics of FF7: given that it is shown of literally in every single attack where recreation occurs. This isn't dbz where there isn't some random ass scruposuly contradictory data. For FF7 every attack of said type has the reconstruction/recreation occuring. You want a "logical explanation, one that is consistent with the laws of physics and logic", then you need to get off it and realize the simple truth of the matter for anything fictious. The Writer> everything. In this case the Writer created Game mecanics. (The Game mecanics and their function is supported by every single body of data in the game, which segments a principal operation behind there creation.)You're just whinning about the impossibility of it in accordance with science, but that doesn't mean shit when the author bluntly puts in a big I don't care on purpose- in this instance it was Game mecanics. The Writer can do whatever then wish, or don't you get that, and that it was purposely done here?
I repeat-YOU DON'T HAVE AN AOTA OF EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT WAS AN ILLUSION IN THE GAME. It is the opposite. This discuss is over, until you provide evidence from FF7 to that shows it was an illusion.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 4, 2006)

So then you admit it is completely inconsistent with the laws of science?


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 4, 2006)

So then you are saying a writer has no control over their own work?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 4, 2006)

The Chaucer Boo said:
			
		

> So then you are saying a writer has no control over their own work?



Answer the question.

Is it, or is it not, consistent with the laws of science?


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## ZergKage (Oct 4, 2006)

Ingame Mechanics. After the fight in the cutscense is the only Meteor he can summon. And that took a while.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 4, 2006)

Game mechanics cannot be used in a vs. debate.


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## Keollyn (Oct 4, 2006)

Some can. Just not all.


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## ZergKage (Oct 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Game mechanics cannot be used in a vs. debate.



I'm saying your right. Also, Keollyn is right. Some can. You cant use Supernova as an attack survived without asking why didnt it kill off earth when it clearly gained the power of the sun also. What does work is the Meteor he summoned before/after the fight that threaten the planet. But again that takes days(maybe weeks) to arrive to Earth and a vs fight would be over by then


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## Piekage (Oct 4, 2006)

The Chaucer Boo said:
			
		

> --
> Now I don't actually know the extent of Sora because I didn't play the second KH, or that much of the first, but the above is just to say what level Cloud is at. So, basically, unless Sora can: dish out more damage then a supernova attack, fight/counter against self effecting magics, fight/counter against overpowered magics, fight/counter against Gods, has way faster then sound speed and can exhaust Clouds materia, Sora is pwned.



Others already covered my say on Supernova, but even if it were creditable, it's not as if Cloud has super endurance or something to that extent. Sephiroth has proven that Cloud can be stabbed or maimed. Sora has cut things with the Keyblade, so he could lop his head off, or knock him unconscious.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, can you actually prove that Supernova was real? It could have just as easily been an illusion, and all evidence and logic points to it being just that. Your only arguement is that the creators > all, which is true, but they could have easily wanted it to be an illusion.


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## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 4, 2006)

Well many things are not realistic. For example a true fight between Sephiroth and Cloud, Cloud would NEVER EVER be able to win alone and also he actually never beat Sephiroth alone, he did it with his friends but because he's the "Main Character in FF7" it reffered to as if he alone did it.

As for SuperNova, I also don't think it's completely real, BUT after the Final Battle the true Meteor (or Nova) DOES hit the earth wich would destroy it easy if the Holy Materia wasn't activated by the last Planets power. I previously meant about that Meteor not the one in battle.

Nevertheless, Cloud still survived that hit, not something to take lightly. I also thought Sora's key can only hit and is blunt, but I might be wrong since it's been quite a long time that I played KH, in that case he can chop Clouds head off of course just like everyone else that uses a sword/blade or w/e that's sharp enough, the question is, will he be able to do that? Is he capable to catch up to Clouds superhuman strenght and speed?


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## Jun'ichi (Oct 4, 2006)

This battle victory goes to Sora. ALthough Cloud is strong he can't beat Sora on equal grounds.


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## [Uchiha]Madara (Oct 4, 2006)

I'm done posting here, this thread became garbage...


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## Keollyn (Oct 4, 2006)

^ Emo much?


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## Shiron (Oct 4, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> ^ Emo much?


Well, I do agree with him on the thread being garbage part, what with people saying Supernova really did what it showed and all (and this comming from someone who thinks that Cloud will win).


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## Kai (Oct 11, 2006)

So I suppose that concludes the fight with Sora the victor. His Final Form is way to fast for Cloud. His skills are unmatched.

GG.


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## Shiron (Oct 11, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> So I suppose that concludes the fight with Sora the victor. His Final Form is way to fast for Cloud. His skills are unmatched.
> 
> GG.


 The fight really wasn't concluded; the thread just died temporarily. =/


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## UzumakiNarutoKyubbi (Oct 11, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Thought I'd fix that for you.



You had it right the first time you posted it, not the 2nd time cause Cloud is the undisputed master of all swordsman/FF characters.


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## 2D (Oct 12, 2006)

ff7 cloud > *


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## Red (Oct 12, 2006)

has anyone watched advent children?


> Cloud is the undisputed master of all swordsman/FF characters.


sephiroth pwns all...


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## TheStoryMaster (Oct 12, 2006)

Cloud wins cuz he has Tifa.  What does Sora have?  a little girl?


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## Art of Run (Oct 12, 2006)

TheStoryMaster said:
			
		

> Cloud wins cuz he has Tifa.  What does Sora have?  a little girl?


What do want him to have?  

Anyway at the end of KH2 Sora would win.


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