# Raikage is overrated



## joernyA the white flasch (Mar 12, 2011)

That Guy is the most one dimensional fighter we know

So how can people compare him to the likes of Itachi and Minato
after we already saw that MS Sasuke(how hadn't full powered Susanno) would be an even match for him
In my opinion Raikage has no chance against pure long range fighter like Gaara
i don't say that he's weaker than him but if he can't punch trough his sand(remember when gaara stopped sasukes and raikages fight)
he hs nothing on him
KillerBee is also way above his borhter


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## joernyA the white flasch (Mar 12, 2011)

If i think about it
Gaara(most underrated Kage) is stronger than Raikage


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## WT (Mar 12, 2011)

I totally agree with what you say, Raikage is most definitely overrated within these forums. First and foremost, unlike his brother, Raikage isn't immune to genjutsu, all that we have seen from him so far is speed and strength. A long range fighter with speed could easily fare against him.


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## Vergil642 (Mar 12, 2011)

Ei's absurdly durable with his Raiton Armour on, able to punch pretty much anything in half in one go and fast enough that most can't keep up with his attacks.

Then he's got the ability to amp these abilities further with his V2 Raiton Armour and blitz someone as fast as Sasuke despite his Sharingan.

Very few characters can counter the raw speed and power he has in his attacks. He's not really overrated at all, or underrated, he's reckoned as a high Kage and quite rightly too.


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## SenSensei (Mar 12, 2011)

Overrated by some, underrated by some.
You also have to take into account that he maxed out on some areas, so some focus on that part and others don't think his speed and strength will be an important advantage in battles.

It goes like this:
Person 1 - A is super fast, he roflstomps.
Person 2 - A is dumb, he gets his ass handed to him.


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## hitokugutsu (Mar 12, 2011)

Agreed. He has raw strength/speed/taijutsu to the max. But then again so has Gai, and he can also up this with Gates
I was also caught by Raikage hype when he was kicking Sasuke's ass, but in hindsight he isnt that well developed in other areas. (now wtach DB4 reveal that he also is quite skilled in genjutsu )


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## Bart (Mar 12, 2011)

SenSensei said:


> Person 2 - A is dumb, he gets his ass handed to him.



Even if that was an example, he isn't stupid; he was emotionally compromised into thinking _Bee_ was dead.


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## Brickhunt (Mar 12, 2011)

Considering that his base reflexes are on par with Minato and he can outspeed Amateratsu, I say that I don't see anything wrong comparing him to Itachi and Minato, it took combining Amateratsu and Susanoo'o to stop V2 A from murdering him (a trick that as far as we know Itachi didn't possess), but that's not the point.

Because we only saw Raikage fighting at close range doesn't mean he doesn't have any long range jutsu, it's unlikely someone who developed a powerful Nintaijutsu doesn't have at least one lightning ranged attack, we can't really tell Raikage is a one trick pony because his only fight was at a closed space and wasn't long range, the guy is the Kage of Kumo and the supreme leader of the shinobi alliance, I'm sure he has some other techniques we didn't saw (like Darui that surprised us with Black Lightning)

By the way, I find interesting that he can activate Raiton Armor even after losing one of his hands, he's either a one handed seal prodigy like Haku or maybe the shuriken tatoo has something to do with it (I think it's a seal like Bee's Iron Armor and Darui's Black Lightning tatoo)


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## Bart (Mar 12, 2011)

Brickhunt said:


> By the way, I find interesting that he can activate Raiton Armor even after losing one of his hands, he's either a one handed seal prodigy like Haku or maybe the shuriken tatoo has something to do with it.



Who said that Jutsu needs handseals?

For example, Neji's _Kaiten_ or Sasuke's _Chidori Nagashi_ :WOW


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## memocay (Mar 12, 2011)

The Raikage overrated ?

No sir !

He is Overraged 

But srsly that man has Bijuu-lvl Chakra, Gen.Jutsu immunity, insane reflexes and speed !


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## nadinkrah (Mar 12, 2011)

Or... A simply bypasses the sand and stomps Gaara.


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## PainHyuuga (Mar 12, 2011)

hes a super saiyan, so far from overrated.


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## sadino (Mar 12, 2011)

Raikage is an specialist he doesn't need to be a jack of all trades,come on,who can say this guy is weak to genjutsu?He freaking glare at Sasuke's eyes and nothing happens to him.


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## Agony (Mar 12, 2011)

he is indeed overrated at times.if the battle started off in long range,long range fighters could have defeated him.

ninjas like deidara and gaara will have no problem with him if they battle on air.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 12, 2011)

A has not shown his ace card. Until he does....suck it. Youd'd be suprised how being fast as a bullet would put you infront of many ninja. He can tank Chidori so kenjutsu = FAIL on him. Taijutsu = FAIL on him. NINJUTSU = 80% fail on him since:
1. He can just doge or run away from it
2. He might tank it depending on the ninjutsu
For crying out loud, he's a walking Lighting blade. Pain struggled to dodge Kakashi...what wouldve happened if it was A? And I'll say it one more time....HE HASNT SHOWN HIS ACE.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 12, 2011)

Agony said:


> he is indeed overrated at times.if the battle started off in long range,long range fighters could have defeated him.
> 
> ninjas like deidara and gaara will have no problem with him if they battle on air.



He'd just run away from them both, lol.


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## Egotism (Mar 12, 2011)

Overrated? The guy dodged a point blank Amaterasu. Also the reason why he was acting so call "Dumb" when he went against Sasuke was because he was Blood Lust. Seriously who in the hell in Naruto can keep up with this guy when he enters R1 or R2? Other than Minato and Tobi.


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## Dashido (Mar 12, 2011)

He's extremely strong, durable , fast ...his physical attributes are so fucking incredible that he kills most people without anything else but physicality. He's like a  juggernaut , I don,t even think range matters when your that fast lol. And i doubt he's shown everything he can do. He's not under rated u guys just fail to realize how dangerous he is.


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## G (Mar 12, 2011)

Just because he's strong as hell, he's not the best Kage around.


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## Egotism (Mar 12, 2011)

So far he proved he is.


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## Kisame (Mar 12, 2011)

Well I know Kisame is stronger than him


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## Purchase (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm pretty sure A has more to show us and I doubt seeing as he's in his early 50's that he survived two Wars and has been a Kage for a decent amount of times, and has never had to face a long ranged opponent. I'm pretty sure he'll show us more in his incoming fight.

I assumed he would fall somewhere in between Orochimaru and Jiaiya power levels.


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## sadino (Mar 12, 2011)

I think u guys aren't getting much of the point.

Why Sasuke used that defensive Susano+Amaterasu combo?Cause everything else would result in him being pwned.Why he leave his front exposed?To force A to come at his line of sight.Also,Amaterasu is kinda understimated since it was the only thing Sasuke had that could've gone throug Raiton no Yoroi with sure,since the flames consume everything,even raiton chakra.Yeah,we're not ewven sure if Susano weapons couldn't be deflected by Raikage too.

If u analyze the fight it was quite a feat from Sasuke to remain conscious after getting hit(C states this),even with Susano cushioning the hit. 

Think about all Sasuke jutsu Arsenal,if his strongest piercing Chidori couldn't do much shit what the other variations could do?Even less.That excludes a great ammount of other jutsu from being effective too,aside from futon.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Mar 12, 2011)

Vergil642 said:


> Ei's absurdly durable with his Raiton Armour on, able to punch pretty much anything in half in one go and fast enough that most can't keep up with his attacks.
> 
> Then he's got the ability to amp these abilities further with his V2 Raiton Armour and blitz someone as fast as Sasuke despite his Sharingan.
> 
> Very few characters can counter the raw speed and power he has in his attacks. He's not really overrated at all, or underrated, he's reckoned as a high Kage and quite rightly too.



Agreed. 

It's hard to hit Ei, his speed allows him to dodge most attacks and allows him to close gaps quickly. He also completely dominates in close range combat, most would be injured or killed instantly if (or rather when) he gets close. And with his durability, if he does get hit, he'd brush most things off. And he doesn't really lack ranged attacks, he can hurl things at you like cannonballs. And he does have a genjutsu defense.

Although, he's not so impossibly fast that people can't keep up with him at all. Juugo, Suigetsu, and Sasuke all managed to counter one of his attacks. But his speed would eventually be overwhelming.


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## Jiraiya4Life (Mar 12, 2011)

Ifthe Raikage lands one good hit on you, your dead.

His Strength and Speed are all he needs to kick your ass, if you hadn't noticed, Sasuke would have been killed in that battle, and Ei would have only lost a leg.


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## Forlong (Mar 12, 2011)

One fight does not necessarily tell us everything about a character's fighting abilities.

If you want to start a shitstorm with Sasuke vs. A, fine.  Sasuke was no match for A.  Who was on the defensive the entire time?  Sasuke.  Who got hit more times and more severely?  Sasuke.  Who put himself through more pain than he could stand?  Sasuke.

Sasuke had his ass handed to him.  He only scored one hit that did superficial damage.  A's hits didn't do much damage either, but he managed to hit Sasuke twice, and both times damaged his protection.  Also, A would have scored two more hits, had not they been blocked by other people.  I should note that no one blocked a harmful attack toward A.  The Amaterasu flames were the closest thing to that, and those can't even kill fodder so that doesn't count.  And let's talk about the help they had.  A took Jugo out of the picture in five seconds and Durai did the same to Sugetsu.  Shi could have healed injuries to A, but Durai would have captured or killed Karin if she tried to do the same to Sasuke.

A clearly had the advantage.  Though I will say that Sasuke would do a lot better if he fought him again.


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## 24 Hours (Mar 12, 2011)

Raikage's reaction and speed is on par with Minato, while his has incredible durability and strength (which means he's better than Minato at taijutsu lol), it is arguable that he can beat Minato. 
It's also arguable that he can defeat Itachi. Itachi's only jutsu work on him is Susano'o. Amaterasu and genjutsu can be easily avoid by raikage. 

If anything, I would say raikage is underrated, just like Onoki and Mei, all the non-hokages are underrated.


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## Mist Puppet (Mar 12, 2011)

I don't get how A being a one-dimensional fighter means anything. 

So what?


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## 24 Hours (Mar 12, 2011)

Forlong said:


> One fight does not necessarily tell us everything about a character's fighting abilities.
> 
> If you want to start a shitstorm with Sasuke vs. A, fine.  Sasuke was no match for A.  Who was on the defensive the entire time?  Sasuke.  Who got hit more times and more severely?  Sasuke.  Who put himself through more pain than he could stand?  Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Amaterasu and genjutsu does not work against raikage due to his superhuman speed. Susano'o is his only hope, that's why he's being defensive all these time. If MS sasuke fought raikage again, he will lose horribly, raikage is sharingan's worst nightmare.


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## Judecious (Mar 12, 2011)

He is indeed overrated, Sasuke was keeping up and Bee said Sasuke was the strongest guy he ever fought.  We know him and A fight all the time so Sasuke who had not even Mastered the MS>Raikage


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## 24 Hours (Mar 12, 2011)

Bee was toying with Sasuke all the time. 
Again, with raikage's speed, he can dodge all Itachi's attacks. If Itachi fought raikage, he will be force to activate Susano'o. I am pretty sure raikage can dodge Susano'o as well, since he dodged amaterasu at point blank and having the speed on par with Minato.


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## 24 Hours (Mar 12, 2011)

Mist Puppet said:


> I don't get how A being a one-dimensional fighter means anything.
> 
> So what?



What the OP said is retarded, since many kage tier shinobi are one-dimensional fighters


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## seastone (Mar 12, 2011)

Not really Raikage can fight on par with most if not all Kages. His speed is overwhelming and allows him to the close the distance with long range fighters. Once in close range, he can decimate a lot of people. 

The only problem with Raikage's fighting style might be if he fights someone like Onoki who fly high into the sky.


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## Judecious (Mar 12, 2011)

24 Hours said:


> Bee was toying with Sasuke all the time.
> Again, with raikage's speed, he can dodge all Itachi's attacks. If Itachi fought raikage, he will be force to activate Susano'o. I am pretty sure raikage can dodge Susano'o as well, since he dodged amaterasu at point blank and having the speed on par with Minato.



Bs, Sasuke had base sharingan for 99% of that fight and once he activated 1 MS jutsu he one shotted bee


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 12, 2011)

Raikage pretty much equals MS sasuke after he mastered it of course, but since sasuke is way more versatile. I put him higher then Ei.


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## Judecious (Mar 12, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Raikage pretty much equals MS sasuke after he mastered it of course, but since sasuke is way more versatile. I put him higher then Ei.



Sasuke that fought raikage was already on par with him without even a full susanoo.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 12, 2011)

I know that but making statements like that will only cause a shit storm.


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## Skywalker (Mar 12, 2011)

Overrated?

Pain is overrated, A is just a beast.


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## Han Solo (Mar 12, 2011)

Judecious said:


> Bs, Sasuke had base sharingan for 99% of that fight and once he activated 1 MS jutsu he one shotted bee



You mean Sasuke got duped? Yeah he did, and he got his life saved 3 times in a row prior to that.


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## principito (Mar 12, 2011)

Morning Tiger pple.... Morning Tiger....

(or was it Afternoon Tiger?).... well, that Tiger thing that Gai Sensei does would rip him a new bottom


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## 24 Hours (Mar 12, 2011)

Judecious said:


> Bs, Sasuke had base sharingan for 99% of that fight and once he activated 1 MS jutsu he one shotted bee



That's V1 Bee and he didn't saw that coming. V1 Bee focus on raw power. V2 Bee has speed, if its V2 Bee, no MS user will stood a chance.


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## Divinstrosity (Mar 12, 2011)

Why is he overrated?

He seemed to be pretty bad-ass until Skeletor-Susanoo made him hide behind a column.


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## DremolitoX (Mar 12, 2011)

lol. A one dimensional fighter would stomp minato.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 12, 2011)

Raikage is almost overrated. As long as people rate him as mid-tier kage in the same tier with Kakuzu and Kisame and lower than Orochimaru, I am fine. 

The dude is an imbecile. He has shown ZERO strategy when fighting. A simple KB feint will take care of his strength and speed. He is not a ranged fighter. He has zero genjutsu feats, no summons for support. Relies entirely on raiton, which can be blown away with fuuton. Dude is overrated if anyone believes he is in the same tier as Itachi and please do not even think of comparing this guy to Minato


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## Judecious (Mar 12, 2011)

24 Hours said:


> That's V1 Bee and he didn't saw that coming. V1 Bee focus on raw power. V2 Bee has speed, if its V2 Bee, no MS user will stood a chance.



Overrated. Sasuke with one MS jutsu one shotted him, with 3 bee won't last long. He has no way around Susanoo yet alone Tsukoyomi


Han Solo said:


> You mean Sasuke got duped? Yeah he did, and he got his life saved 3 times in a row prior to that.



That sasuke didn't even activate susanoo yet and when he did Raikage was hiding behind Shi. He was saved because he didn't only fight Raikage.


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## 24 Hours (Mar 12, 2011)

Judecious said:


> Overrated. Sasuke with one MS jutsu one shotted him, with 3 bee won't last long. He has no way around Susanoo yet alone Tsukoyomi



Bee broke Tsukuyomi with an ease, did you even read the whole fight? Susano'o is slow, with Bee's speed he can easily avoid most of its attacks. Bee has bijudama to destroy Sasuke or Itachi.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 12, 2011)

Judecious said:


> Overrated. Sasuke with one MS jutsu one shotted him, with 3 bee won't last long. He has no way around Susanoo yet alone Tsukoyomi
> 
> 
> That sasuke didn't even activate susanoo yet and when he did Raikage was hiding behind Shi. He was saved because he didn't only fight Raikage.



You know samehada sucks chakra and susano'o is chakra, right? So what if Sasuke had not yet activated susano'o, Bee had not acquired samehada yet. Sasuke one-shot Kirabi? Last time I checked, he was duped. Plus, Kirabi would have killed Sasuke twice if not for Team Taka.


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## DremolitoX (Mar 12, 2011)

Judecious said:


> Overrated. Sasuke with one MS jutsu one shotted him,



LOL.

I can't believe I just read that.

*Spoiler*: _Sasuke, 1 shotting The Raikage_


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## Deadway (Mar 12, 2011)

24 Hours said:


> Bee broke Tsukuyomi with an ease, did you even read the whole fight? Susano'o is slow, with Bee's speed he can easily avoid most of its attacks. Bee has bijudama to destroy Sasuke or Itachi.



That wasn't Tsukuyomi. Either way, E can kill pretty much anyone just because he doesn't have limits. He will lose an arm or a leg if that results in your death.


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## Judecious (Mar 12, 2011)

DremolitoX said:


> LOL.
> 
> I can't believe I just read that.
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Sasuke, 1 shotting The Raikage_



 learn to read, he one shotted Bee once he activated his MS jutsu




24 Hours said:


> Bee broke Tsukuyomi with an ease, did you even read the whole fight? Susano'o is slow, with Bee's speed he can easily avoid most of its attacks. Bee has bijudama to destroy Sasuke or Itachi.



That wasn't tsukutomi and you are talking about Itachi susanoo, sasukes is mobile and bee isn't dodging all those arrows.

Bijudama can be easily dodged


@senjuclan
What feat does bee have with it? He said sasuke with 1 MS was the strongest guy he ever fought and you think Bee can beat sasuke with all 3 jutsu. Lol


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## Soul (Mar 12, 2011)

I don't see how he is overrated.


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## machiavelli2009 (Mar 12, 2011)

i agree with the thread outside hidan and deidara every akatsuki member can take him on and might win. depending on how they play things out. 

jugo could react to raikage v1 so i assume every akatsuki member could react to him as well. 
sasori could use iron world order to limit his movement once he has seen how fast raikage is.
konan could mix paper bombs with her paper, and spread them round the entire area making the battlefield a mine field.  

with 5 hearts kakuzu can attack from 5 different angles though this isnt the same as the rinnegan simply moving away from kakuzu line of sight does not mean the other hearts cant see Ei. kakuzu might not be able to react but the hearts not being attacked should be able to.

itachi being much smarter than sasuke could use amateratsu in a more intelligence fashion. yata mirror will repel Ei a la shinra tensei and send him flying. 

orochimaru depending on who he resurrects he could give Ei a very tough time. also Ei has no way shown so far of killing orochimaru, and kusanagi might be able to go through the shroud. 

pain eats him alive. 

kisame with his unique fighting style should be able to win. Ei will get his chakra absorbed in a few swings. the more chakra samehada eats the hungrier it gets. Ei will feed it good.


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## Shadow050 (Mar 12, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> I totally agree with what you say, Raikage is most definitely overrated within these forums. First and foremost, unlike his brother, Raikage isn't immune to genjutsu, all that we have seen from him so far is speed and strength. A long range fighter with speed could easily fare against him.



wrong... he is VIRTUALLY IMMUNE to genjutsu. he breaks it _so fast_ it's a complete waste of time to even use.

the only "better" genjutsu defense to be witnessed it the "reflecting" ability the sharingan has shown at times.

his speed is quite serious, as is his strength, and his armor (which can be amplified) gives him extremely high resistance to attacks - both taijutsu and ninjutsu alike. 

that's part of the reason kishi took his arm away lol.

what's "overrated" is being versatile.
yes, it has it's merits but it doesn't mean a versatile ninja is stronger than a "not-as-versatile" ninja.

and calling raikage one dimensional another crass assumption to add to an already overcrowded list. 

his SHOWINGS and PORTRAYALS *seem* "one-sided"
_just like that of the hyuuga_... who some people stupidly will claim "can't use ninjutsu" meanwhile people like Neji have a 4.5 in ninjutsu... how the hell they get ratings like that while not being able to use ninjutsu is beyond me... nah screw it,  *IT'S IMPOSSIBLE*.

and more than likely raikage will fall into the same boat - that being that he's only _shown_ using taijutsu (or nin-tajutsu) even though he has good ninjutsu ratings and such. (only thing working against him, is that he can no longer make seals, obviously, unless he can magically pull of haku's one-handed seals lol.)



machiavelli2009 said:


> i agree with the thread outside hidan and deidara every akatsuki member can take him on and might win. depending on how they play things out.
> 
> jugo could react to raikage v1 so i assume every akatsuki member could react to him as well.
> sasori could use iron world order to limit his movement once he has seen how fast raikage is.
> ...



c'mon... all these scenarios are tweaked against raikage to begin with, and some wouldn't even play out like that. for instance, i couldn't imagine raikage destroying hiruko and then then actually giving sasori time to do various summons or whatever. and sasori not only keeping up, but his attacks keeping up with raikage would be hard to believe...

konan will get annihilated unless she has all this apparently assumed intel and prep time...

Itachi would fair better than sasuke, but he would not "eat him alive" at all. don't even know if he'd win. it'd be interesting, but i can assure you if he doesn't use susano'o he'll be in some deep shyt indeed.

not gonna go too much further with this though. inany case, raiakge isn't invincible, no, but he's VERY strong. 



Judecious said:


> learn to read, he one shotted Bee once he activated his MS jutsu
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sasuke didn't "one shot" bee with amaterasu... didn't he use it like twice? and bee used the opportunity to flee from the fight... in actually sasuke "one (or two) shotted" just a bunshin kawamiri... 
we know "bee and hachibi" are "one in the same" so when bee was in that tentacle, so was hachibi, meaning that hachi and bee had _been escaped amaterasu_ lol.

and it's also not really fair to say that a flame that doesn't go out properly, and can spread when touched, "one shotted" someone, IMO. it's technically true i guess, but still lol... it's misleading like crazy lol.

and raikage can definitely dodge sasuke's susano'o arrows. methinks he can move faster than danzou can sprout a tree from his arm lol. and i KNOW he "processes what he perceives" fast enough to.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 12, 2011)

Isn't minato just as one dimensional?  Offensively as well?

Raikage one deminsional or not, has proven to be able to hold his own at least moderately well against someone as versatile as Sasuke.


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## DremolitoX (Mar 12, 2011)

Judecious said:


> learn to read, he one shotted Bee once he activated his MS jutsu



whoops. My bad. Still, bee one shotted sasuke twice, and amaterasu was overcome fairly easily as well.

Edit: I didn't really read the quote, or the rest of what you posted as I thought this thread was still about The Raikage.


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## machiavelli2009 (Mar 12, 2011)

@ Shadow050 
kid ur inane. 
konan shouldnt need prep time to fill the area with explosive tags. considering she is mostly paper and raikage is close range she can simply make a 5m radius of explosive tags around her so that if Ei comes close he steps on one or she can spread round him  using a bunshin with explosive tags mixed with her paper.  shouldnt be hard at all for someone with her particular skill. 

in sasori case after he jumps out of hiruko, i doubt very much raikage would blindly chase him down. 
puppet users specialize in traps, anyone with a brain would think its careless to rush in. iron world order is perfect for slowing him down, i neva said anything about the attack actually hitting him. but with all the iron sand weaved around the battlefield it would be hard for Ei to reach top speed.


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## Sasuke` (Mar 12, 2011)

I hope Edo Itachi Roflstomps him .

I don't think he is either one on these forums.. He seems pretty much where he should be. He's pretty much just... well... Rated.


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## Nfpsouljah (Mar 12, 2011)

I don't think he's overrated. He completely rape stomped Sasuke in their little scuffle and if it wasn't for Gaara, Sasuke would of been snapped in half in the end.


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## Jiraiyaaa- (Mar 12, 2011)

Gaaras sand couldnt keep up with Lee, what makes you think its gonna keep up with a Kage lvl speed??


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## C-No (Mar 12, 2011)

joernyA the white flasch said:


> That Guy is the most one dimensional fighter we know
> 
> So how can people compare him to the likes of Itachi and Minato
> after we already saw that MS Sasuke(how hadn't full powered Susanno) would be an even match for him
> ...



While he may be overrated, Sasuke is in no way an even match for him. He barely even managed to scratch his chest. Lol. And Gaara's long range won't stop Ei from getting in close. Lack of speed always seemed to be Gaara's achillies heel. I doubt his sand could keep up with Ei's body and remember that Ei didn't see the sand he was trying to hit Sasuke and then let it go after Gaara stopped him. He never actually tried to force it through.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 12, 2011)

Nfpsouljah said:


> I don't think he's overrated. He completely rape stomped Sasuke in their little scuffle and if it wasn't for Gaara, Sasuke would of been snapped in half in the end.



You see this page 464-06? You see the big blimp of text starting with "If you"
what does it say?

Who was the only one confirmed to have come out seriously harmed in that exchange?

Who was the only one confirmed to have come out seriously harmed in the previous exchange?

Who is the only one still missing their arm?

Do people really hate Sasuke this much to TWIST REALITY. Are people this blind? Sasuke DOMINATED that battle from the start. He was making an utter full of him. Raikage traded HIS ARM, for a love tap (in comparison), and was about to trade his leg/legs as well.

That fight was as one sided as you can get in the top tier. Raikage is missing an arm, yet people claim he raped?

Each day I lose more hope for some of the individuals on this board.


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## Nfpsouljah (Mar 12, 2011)

Losing an arm is like a flesh-wound to the Raikage, he barely even realized that he was on fire. 

Manga fact = Gaara stopped Sasuke from getting flattened into a pulp.

I think it's fairly obvious that the Raikage would gladly trade his limbs to flatten an inferior ninja, he clearly had no care in the world for it. Dominating Sasuke like he did is just not enough, he needed to smash his face into little pieces which should of happened if not for Gaara = FACT


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 12, 2011)

Nfpsouljah said:


> Losing an arm is like a flesh-wound to the Raikage, he barely even realized that he was on fire.


"Stop the bleeding!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/511/10/

You sure you want to put all your stock in that sentence????????????




> Manga fact = Gaara stopped Sasuke from getting flattened into a pulp.


I know a trolling effort when I see it, that is my Q to just stop trying.

"If you had continued the attack, the black flames would have harmed you even more"

Who is this sentence referring too?

Does Sasuke have a similar statement?

Don't worry you don't need to respond, we both know you are going to avoid responding directly to my points. We both know you are not going to answer my question with a straight answer. 



> I think it's fairly obvious that the Raikage would gladly trade his limbs to flatten an inferior ninja, he clearly had no care in the world for it. Dominating Sasuke like he did is just not enough, he needed to smash his face into little pieces which should of happened if not for Gaara = FACT


Except for the fact that he failed to do so, or even remotely come close. He traded his arm for a bruise and unlike your silly analysis, mines is actually supported on panel by the manga.

Dominating? When did he actually manage to harm Sasuke besides the blow that cost an arm, and almost a leg?

You are really not even trying to come up with a reasonable argument.

Edit:Barely a triple digit post count in almost 4 years? Must be a troll account, with the purpose of trolling. Looks like I just made someones day.


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## Nfpsouljah (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm not a troll, my post count just reflects how much i use the internet, i'm a very busy person but I still contribute to this forum with my intelligent posts every now and then when the time calls.

More harm for the Raikage, tis' nothing, he'd gladly take "more harm" of it mean Sasuke would of been killed which was most definitely going to happen. A beast like the Raikage doesn't care about his arm or his legs, it's fairly obvious he would of got the job done.

Would he have lost more limbs, for sure, but being he straight up nightmaric beast that he is, he doesn't give a flying _____, because that's what he does, he plays God on people's asses just like he would of done right there if not for Goody Goody Gaara. Obviously Gaara did not want to see the Raikage lose another limb, but he also did not want to see Sasuke die so easily and embarrassingly like that either. You only just had to see the look in Sasuke's eyes when Gaara stopped it, the relief and pure terror was just unfathomable, he knew right then that he was about to die.


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## DremolitoX (Mar 12, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> snipped



You see this page?

*Spoiler*: __ 








gaara's implying sasuke would have been splattered. Meaning, he wouldn't have been able to talk to him if he hadn't stopped that kick.


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## Nfpsouljah (Mar 12, 2011)

Well said DremolitoX, that is clear proof that Gaara, along with everyone else in that room(including Sasuke), knew that the Raikage was about to beast him.

There is no possible way you can denounce that fact and even if you try to contemplate making a comeback to this, you must be 100% trolling as we have just shown you irrefutable fact that Sasuke was most definitely going to get owned by the Raikage, but I don't expect you to make a reply since you know you just got beasted anyway


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 12, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> You see this page 464-06? You see the big blimp of text starting with "If you"
> what does it say?
> 
> Who was the only one confirmed to have come out seriously harmed in that exchange?
> ...



The damage Raikage received is damaged he CHOSE to receive. Pleaseeeeeeeee do remember this.


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## Sesha (Mar 12, 2011)

Every major or semi-important character in this puerile series is overrated.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 12, 2011)

Nfpsouljah said:


> I'm not a troll, my post count just reflects how much i use the internet, i'm a very busy person but I still contribute to this forum with my intelligent posts every now and then when the time calls.


Sure.



> More harm for the Raikage, tis' nothing, he'd gladly take "more harm" of it mean Sasuke would of been killed which was most definitely going to happen. A beast like the Raikage doesn't care about his arm or his legs, it's fairly obvious he would of got the job done.


You avoided my questions just like I predicted you would. 

Most definitely going to happen? How do you reach this conclusion good sir? What logic are you using to derived such a conclusion? Surely nothing from the manga depicts such. Considering he failed in his previous TWO attempts, correlation doesn't imply the third would have done the deed.

Fairly obvious? Maybe of my hatred for a character blinded me into believing such. But correlation, and the manga does not support you. Your only evidence to support Raikage killing Sasuke, is your own blind unsupported beliefs. 



> Would he have lost more limbs, for sure, but being he straight up nightmaric beast that he is, he doesn't give a flying _____, because that's what he does, he plays God on people's asses just like he would of done right there if not for Goody Goody Gaara. Obviously Gaara did not want to see the Raikage lose another limb, but he also did not want to see Sasuke die so easily and embarrassingly like that either. You only just had to see the look in Sasuke's eyes when Gaara stopped it, the relief and pure terror was just unfathomable, he knew right then that he was about to die.


Yes and we know he would have lost more limbs, based on Gara statement, and the previous correlation. 

Notice how we have some kind of leeway some kind of evidence to support this conclusion. 

The look in Sasuke's eyes? Really now?

I honestly don't know how to respond to such a paragraph, as I can no longer tell if it is a serious response, or a something posted in order to deduce a laugh. I am going to assume the later, as I did laugh.

You see the look on Raikage's face. Is it me or does it look like terror? It doesn't help that he is hiding behind a pillar.

Sasuke was making Raikage look like a fool throughout that entire battle. 

face

Durai beats himself up at the fact that he let a 16 year old, disfigure the person writing his checks.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 12, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> The damage Raikage received is damaged he CHOSE to receive. Pleaseeeeeeeee do remember this.



If this is your argument, then Raikage still got bested as he didn't damage Sasuke at ALL, while Sasuke did.

No matter how you slice it, Sasuke was embarrassing that man. How embarrasing must it be for the Raikage to leave to fight Sasuke with two arms, and come back with one?


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## DremolitoX (Mar 12, 2011)

Less embarrasing than having to resort to cowering in a shield and having your opponent come to you because you realize you can't contend with His power, I imagine.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 12, 2011)

DremolitoX said:


> You see this page?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Where DremolitoX?

Wasn't Raikage hiding behind a shield?

face

Didn't the shroud function as a shield as well?

Raikage would have been dead twice without it, so why are you being such a hypocrite?


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 12, 2011)

When asked about why he interfered, Gaara didn't only state that Raikage would receive even more damage but he also said "*BESIDES i want to talk with Uchihaha Sascake..* " implying he wouldn't have the chance if Raikage's kick connected.




> You see the look on Raikage's face. Is it me or does it look like terror? It doesn't help that he is hiding behind a pillar.



Oh yeah, A is so damn terrified:

this sheer amount of distance with either pure speed or a shunshin.


And A clearly didn't give a *rats ass* about his hand so stop using that as desperate attempt to make Sascake look better.

And one hand less A still wanted to kill Sascake but yeah he was so fucking scared.. right..


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## DremolitoX (Mar 12, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Where DremolitoX?
> 
> Wasn't Raikage hiding behind a shield?
> 
> ...



That's different though. The Raikage never relied on having his opponent come to him. Once The Raikage got serious, sasuke did so because 

1. He had no other alternative
2. (the reason for #1,) He's weaker

Shields are fine, and you can use them, but you're going to be degraded as a combatant if you have to resort to the same cowardice sasuke did.

If The Raikage had resorted to the same thing sasuke did, all we would have had in that encounter would have been two cowards huddled in fear on two opposite ends of the room (no fight, as they would need to compromise their safety to attack.)


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## k2nice (Mar 12, 2011)

The Raikage is not overrate. He is incredibly fast, reflexes greater then minato, and strong enough to cut off a bijuu's horn. He is also very durable and laughs at pain. He can break your neck in base with his bare hands. He can punch holes in objects, living or nonliving.

We can easily put him on up with itachi and minato. For all we know, Minato doesn't have any genjutsu resistance either, and itachi doesn't have the speed to keep up with him. 

I doubt ranged jutsu's matter due to the fact that he dodged jugo's chakra cannon while his fist was still stuck in jugo and amasteru at point black range.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 12, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> When asked about why he interfered, Gaara didn't only state that Raikage would receive even more damage but he also said "*BESIDES i want to talk with Uchihaha Sascake..* " implying he wouldn't have the chance if Raikage's kick connected.


Because Gara could have talked to Sasuke from inside the meeting center?

Wanting to talk to Sasuke could be argued as his very reason for leaving the center in the first place. 

Your interpretation of the events, is no more than baseless speculation, an attempt to spin the situation into something that supports your position.

Gara coming off as a smart ass towards the Raikage basically mocking him, for questioning his decision for interfering with the initial response of "Injury" and giving his real reason with the later. 

If Kishi wanted to tell us Sasuke would have died in the exchange who would have flat out told us. 






> Oh yeah, A is so damn terrified:
> 
> this sheer amount of distance with either pure speed or a shunshin.
> 
> ...


Narutoantaratard, why do you bother to try to argue with me, when you knwo you are going to look foolish. 


Yes indeed Raikage did look confident with another Kage + additional set of body gaurds backing him. You have to come with a better comeback than that good sir. 



> And one hand less A still wanted to kill Sascake but yeah he was so fucking scared.. right..


Read the above response. He wasn't looking so confident when it counted. 
Chapter 144

I don't care what A emotion depict after this event, as he no longer was fighting alone, he had additional support to help him.

This is like that a person talking shit when he is with he has his posse with him. Narutantaratard you really have to think of a better arguments before posting.


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 12, 2011)

Oh i can't possibly win repeating the same crap over and over again i should try embarrassing him by calling his arguments stupid and what not and he will cry and go away  wow that doesn't work either  Ok i give up.. Next time.. same strategy..

WOW i think after failing for the billionth time with the lame personal attacks you would finally learn but.. wow just wow :rofl Sorry but im not the one who looks foolish 


Kishi made it clear enough for the people who are not blinded by love for Sascake.

Spin it all you want but it's not gonna do you any good against me. Gaara stated that in response of A's question "Why you interfered?" Not "why are you here?" 

I'm not the one who needs better comebacks.I doubt Raikage is foolish enough to think his subordinates will help him much against Susano and later said that HE wanted to kill Sascake!If you are terrified of someone you try to avoid them not chase after them wanting to kill them .

And btw next personal attack im just gonna laugh off but feel free to waste your time and look even more foolish


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## Senjuclan (Mar 12, 2011)

Judecious said:


> @senjuclan
> What feat does bee have with it? He said sasuke with 1 MS was the strongest guy he ever fought and you think Bee can beat sasuke with all 3 jutsu. Lol



I don't need feats to know that samehada sucks chakra and susano'o is chakra. Furthermore, the number of Ms jutsu he has is irrelevant, it is the match-up that matters. susano'o would be sucked by samehada and tsukuyomi will be cancelled by the bijuu


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 12, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Oh i can't possibly win repeating the same crap over and over again i should try embarrassing him by calling his arguments stupid and what not and he will cry and go away  wow that doesn't work either  Ok i give up.. Next time.. same strategy..


Reiterating ones claim, is a smart position to take, as to avoid contradiction. You would know if you ever decided to even remotely read a book on good debating, or take a class in the shit.

Your argument is what it is. It doesn't make sense and cannot be supported by the manga. And instead of going back to the drawing board, and actually correcting ones post, or a least provide a better example. You opt to change the discussion or the topic in general. 

Maybe if you actually tried to use more manga, and yes spin you would compose a decent argument. 



> WOW i think after failing for the billionth time with the lame personal attacks you would finally learn but.. wow just wow :rofl Sorry but im not the one who looks foolish


Personal attack? Where good sir? As I am simply speaking on behalf of your post. What you place on the white screen and press the send button too, is fare game good sir. 

You do the same thing essentially every time we argue, you do not take into consideration any manga evidence. You instead opt to go off topic, or provide irrelevant panels to support your claim. Your response is clearly a depiction of someone who cannot argue the subejct, rather they are simply responding to save face.

Your response here is essentially wasting bandwidth as it doesn't even remotely relate to your previous response, rather it sound like a silly attempt to play victim.






> Kishi made it clear enough for the people who are not blinded by love for Sascake.


Clear? Where is it clear? Is Sasuke name and injury even mention in the same sentence. Raikage and injury, however was.

And I love how you resort to my character preference, instead of opting to argue the points. You are a hater of Sasuke, but I never fault you for it neither do I use as a reason to discredit your opinion. 



> Spin it all you want but it's not gonna do you any good against me. Gaara stated that in response of A's question "Why you interfered?" Not "why are you here?"


It's not spin. What was Gara's purpose for leaving the meeting place. He was not aware of Sasuke's or Raikages abilities, he had no personal ties to really none of them. Talking to Sasuke is the only logical conclusion, and again if Kishi wanted to state or even imply Sasuke fate in that exchange he would have directly mentioned it. 




> I'm not the one who needs better comebacks.I doubt Raikage is foolish enough to think his subordinates will help him much against Susano and later said that HE wanted to kill Sascake!If you are terrified of someone you try to avoid them not chase after them wanting to kill them .


Obviously you do, as that was clearly your intention with posting the later pic of your post. 

Obviously you felt the need to justify why Raikage was hiding behind the pillar, although you failed to do that. 

He said he wanted to kill Sasuke, yet he nutted up when it was his time to shine. It is easy to say I want to fight mike tyson, when I have a former heavy weight fighter behind me, his body guards and am in another state.





> And btw next personal attack im just gonna laugh off but feel free to waste your time and look even more foolish


Says the guy, who is trying to interpret a simple sentence as "Wanting to talk to Sasuke" as it meaning him dying. 

Let me discredit your little interpretation. How does Gara know Sasuke would have been killed in the first place? He doesn't know what Susano does, he doesn't know the details of the battle. All he can go by is what he saw, and clearly Raikage was injured, Sasuke not so much.

You are really up a creek without a paddle with this one.

And considering the fact, one doesn't understand the definition of a personal attack the only one looking silly is you.


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## Divinstrosity (Mar 12, 2011)

I only like the Raikage because he is Afro-Japanese. 

Other than that, he is pretty much a chocolate covered Gai with an attitude.


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 13, 2011)

> Reiterating ones claim, is a smart position to take, as to avoid contradiction. You would know if you ever decided to even remotely read a book on good debating, or take a class in the shit.



Not when your argument is bullshit 



> Your argument is what it is. It doesn't make sense and cannot be supported by the manga. And instead of going back to the drawing board, and actually correcting ones post, or a least provide a better example. You opt to change the discussion or the topic in general.



 




> Personal attack? Where good sir? As I am simply speaking on behalf of your post. What you place on the white screen and press the send button too, is fare game good sir.






			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> *Narutoantaratard, why do you bother to try to argue with me, when you knwo you are going to look foolish.*







> You do the same thing essentially every time we argue, you do not take into consideration any manga evidence. You instead opt to go off topic, or provide irrelevant panels to support your claim. Your response is clearly a depiction of someone who cannot argue the subejct, rather they are simply responding to save face.




Oh that's actually you.I don't know what you hope to accomplish by this considering how easy is for me to quote you from last time you ignored manga evidence, pretend certain manga pages never happened and tried to change the topic when those pages were shoved in your face or just didn't respond to them.

 But yeah i took the bait.Next time i really am gonna laugh it off unless you want me to quote you.





> Clear? Where is it clear? Is Sasuke name and injury even mention in the same sentence. Raikage and injury, however was.



A:Why you interfiered?

Gaara: You would've been harmed even more.Besides i want talk with Sascake.

He gave it as a reason for why he interfered.It's as clear as it gets for me.



> You are a hater of Sasuke, but I never fault you for it neither do I use as a reason to discredit your opinion.



Actually i do remember such an occasion but i don't remember when it was and i can't quote you on it so i'll give you that.I do apologize although im not completely sure..



> It's not spin. What was Gara's purpose for leaving the meeting place. He was not aware of Sasuke's or Raikages abilities, he had no personal ties to really none of them. Talking to Sasuke is the only logical conclusion,



Yeah he came to talk with him and?Doesn't prove me wrong.For him to talk with Sascake he needs him in a condition in which they can have a normal conversation.And Gaara gave that as a reason for why he stopped the attack.



> and again if Kishi wanted to state or even imply Sasuke fate in that exchange he would have directly mentioned it.



He didn't because he though he made it clear enough.And for me and other people he did 



> Obviously you felt the need to justify why Raikage was hiding behind the pillar, although you failed to do that.



Actually no.I simply objected to the fact that A was terrified but if you want me to defend him for hiding ok..

He was shocked and needed a moment to think.You don't just jump in and fight something like that seeing it for the first time.Not saying he can't fight Susano.Sascake was scared of Naru's tailed forms but he still bested him.



> He said he wanted to kill Sasuke, yet he nutted up when it was his time to shine.



He still came after him and wanted to kill him, *HIMSELF*.




> It is easy to say I want to fight mike tyson, when I have a former heavy weight fighter behind me, his body guards and am in another state.



I also assume you have the strength to fight him yourself and you are way stronger than those accompany you? 

Great example and all but doesn't change the fact that A's friends wouldn't have been of much help against Susano and A should know that.



> Let me discredit your little interpretation. How does Gara know Sasuke would have been killed in the first place? He doesn't know what Susano does, he doesn't know the details of the battle. All he can go by is what he saw, and clearly Raikage was injured, Sasuke not so much.



You failed to discredit shit and actually helped my case.

Yes Gaara can only go by what he sees and what he knows.He knows A's strength can easily kill a person.What he knows about Sascake's strength at that moment?He is just gonna assume Sascake will survive, lol

And he sees Sascake, coughing blood, doesn't try to move out of the way and Gaara is just gonna assume Sascake is not injured?Right..



> And considering the fact, one doesn't understand the definition of a personal attack the only one looking silly is you.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 13, 2011)

i agree...awesome speed and raw power is not enough to define a truely strong character, he has it but then again...what more? and how wisely does he use it? its useless to be strong if you are dumb enough to run into amaterasu for example


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## BassGS (Mar 13, 2011)

Read the title.


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## Dark Red Z (Mar 13, 2011)

BassGS said:


> Read the title and felt like posthing this. Didn't read anything in the thread.



I saw those gifs and thought. "OP, I am disappoint."

Who's to say Raikage can't super jump to, and/or speedblitz to reach a long-range opponent?


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## Egotism (Mar 13, 2011)

Until someone tell me a current Naruto character that can dodge A's R2 speed (Exluding Tobi and Naruto) this thread is a fail


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## Skywalker (Mar 13, 2011)

Egotism said:


> Until someone tell me a current Naruto character that can dodge A's R2 speed (Exluding Tobi and Naruto) this thread is a fail


Tobi's intangibility doesn't count.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 13, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Not when your argument is bullshit


But that is the problem good sir, you have failed to provide details of why my argument is BS, considering you never bothered to argue with them at all.



> Oh that's actually you.I don't know what you hope to accomplish by this considering how easy is for me to quote you from last time you ignored manga evidence, pretend certain manga pages never happened and tried to change the topic when those pages were shoved in your face or just didn't respond to them.


When have I done any of this? I try to the best of my abilities to stay on topic. I actually provide you with manga details that is back up by the manga to a T. So please do not get it twisted good sir. 



> But yeah i took the bait.Next time i really am gonna laugh it off unless you want me to quote you.


Again responding to save face. You are not even trying to argue my points, rather you reside in to simply taking the argument  somewhere else, and derailing the discussion in the process.









> A:Why you interfiered?
> 
> Gaara: You would've been harmed even more.Besides i want talk with Sascake.
> 
> He gave it as a reason for why he interfered.It's as clear as it gets for me.


Yes and it doesn't imply what you are trying to pass it off as. I see nothing of Sasuke being injured. I see no hint even being remotely hinted to be injured out of the exchange. You are simply trying to pull stuff out of thin air, in order to argue.

Also the name is Sasuke, Sascake sounds kind a of off, ON YOUR PART, by the way. 





> Actually i do remember such an occasion but i don't remember when it was and i can't quote you on it so i'll give you that.I do apologize although im not completely sure..


In other words, I never did it. Thank you very much good sir. 





> Yeah he came to talk with him and?Doesn't prove me wrong.For him to talk with Sascake he needs him in a condition in which they can have a normal conversation.And Gaara gave that as a reason for why he stopped the attack.


Exactly. It does prove what you are stating wrong, as it cannot be used in the context you are trying to use it as.

And yes he does need to be in a condition in which they could have a normal conversation, that is common sense. However the statement doesn't imply that wouldn't be possible if the attack went through. As we agreed, Gara came/ left the meeting to talk to Sasuke POINT BLANK period.







> He didn't because he though he made it clear enough.And for me and other people he did


He didn't because that is not his intention, nor did he imply it to be such. If he left the meeting place to talk to Sasuke, then his response is simply uttering the truth right? 

Your responses gets more outrageous with each new entry, I am curious as to how you plan to respond next. 





> Actually no.I simply objected to the fact that A was terrified but if you want me to defend him for hiding ok..


His face depicted terror good sir at that particular time. Sasuke long sense left the building when, his courage returned. He wasn't opting to get at Sasuke in that panel, which is all that matters.



> He was shocked and needed a moment to think.You don't just jump in and fight something like that seeing it for the first time.Not saying he can't fight Susano.Sascake was scared of Naru's tailed forms but he still bested him.


Sasuke didn't run or hid from Naruto tailed form though. 

Raikage didn't even opt to engage nor, is there any indication he planed to do so. In fact in that same panel C opts for the team to retreat, and Raikage gives no objective to the plan.

Chapter 144

Raikage wanted no part of Sasuke ON HIS OWN ACCORD, thus is why he wasn't against others attempting to take his life, after he failed to do so.





> He still came after him and wanted to kill him, *HIMSELF*


Of course he wanted to kill him, Sasuke was responsible for bee's disappearance(as he thought). And considering Sasuke just took his arm as well, of course he still wants him dead, but he is not against other helping. 

Link removed

In fact he seems to be rallying the team to go after Sasuke together. 






> I also assume you have the strength to fight him yourself and you are way stronger than those accompany you?


But that is not under the same condition Raikage was in. He was not stronger than Sasuke, in fact Sasuke was holding back, and still making him look like a fool. 

Raikage is also not way stronger than Gara, so your argument is mute. 





> Great example and all but doesn't change the fact that A's friends wouldn't have been of much help against Susano and A should know that.


However they do provide distraction, and capable of saving A's ass if he is need of it. Jugo, Suigestu, Karin have proven this, the war has proven this, the Kage summit has proven this.

Raikage couldn't do much against Susano either, as twice his attacks were either totally thwarted, or reduced significantly because of it. And Sasuke was no longer, letting him get free shots. If Raikage wanted to try his luck against Susano, he was going to pay with limbs. Sasuke's tactic was pure genius; granted I would admit; I don't think Sasuke expected him to attack.

The point is Sasuke placed Raikage into a position where he could attack and lose limbs, or back the fuck up. He chose the former, and Sasuke capitalized. In fact he like the results of the first exchange so much, he was willing to try it twice. 





> You failed to discredit shit and actually helped my case.


How so? You failed to present any thing that is supported by the manga facts.



> Yes Gaara can only goes but what he sees and what he knows.He knows A's strength can easily kill a person.What he knows about Sascake's strength at that moment?He is just gonna assume Sascake will survive, lol


He knows A's strength can easily kill a person? How did he know that? Had he actually see Raikage fight? 

The fact is nothing implicates anything being harmed in the exchange but Raikage. Narutoantartard I don't why I even bother; I do not get payed to teach you the manga, nor does besting your argument even fun anymore. 





> And he sees Sascake, coughing blood, doesn't try to move out of the way and Gaara is just gonna assume Sascake is not injured?Right..


His coughing of blood, was not significant enough to stop him from battling now was it? It was not significant enough for him to require immediate medical attentions, like a certain Kage was. Sasuke doesn't seem hindered by Raikage's blow.

Link removed

Their was no long term lingering affects. Sasuke's future battles is not affected by the Raikage's injury. In fact didn't he go on to beat Danzo? 

Gara assuming he is not injured isn't even the argument, it is his assessment on who would have received what had that exchange not went down. 

You accredit his comments "Of wanting to talk to Sasuke" as evidence to support Sasuke dieing, but isn't this essentially his true reason for coming there? Why can't him wanting to talk to Sasuke, just mean him wanting to talk to Sasuke? If you agree that this is the truth, than how does one gather duel meaning from it. As I stated before if Kishi wanted Gara to imply, Sasuke coming of that exchange badly, he would as clearly provided CRYSTAL CLEAR evidence as he did Raikage. 

You my friend do not understand why your argument is flawed, and I do not have the time or patients to teach you. 

If you respond back with half of your post consisting of smiles, I am not or half ass explanation I am not going to even bother responding.


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## Egotism (Mar 13, 2011)

Depends if Deidara can make it in the sky before A reacts. I doubt it. Long range or Short A will likely catch you


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 13, 2011)

Back on topic. No he is not overated, and has the potential to beat many of the top Akatasuki on that list including Pain. 

His arsenal is bare bones, and his move set is not flashy, however his style presents match up problems for many individual. He outmatches almost all physically, which is a problem with his incredible speed, thus ability to close the distance.

Pain would have a hard time keeping in front of him, or keeping him at a distance. Kisame would have a hard time keeping Raikage from injuring that ass, and Itachi without Susano on stand by, better hope his genjutsu takes hold. 

Raikage down fall comes in the lack of versatility, and letting his anger cloud his judgment. Raikage's actions against Sasuke was stupid, point blank period. The only reasons why certain individuals are not as hard on him, because he manage to hit Sasuke's mug, which few have done in a while.

That action has basically cost him, his career as a front line fighter. A pure taijutsu user that has lost his hand, is essentially gimped.


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## jimbob631 (Mar 13, 2011)

I think it depends, when people say he's as strong as characters like Minato, Itachi, Pain, his brother, etc, then yeah he's overrated.  People need to remember Kabuto said to Orochimaru that Hiruzen was the strongest of the current kages even in his old age.  This means that he's not only weaker than an old Hiruzen but also Orochimaru and Jiraiya.  

At the same time I'm 100% positive he is the strongest person in the Shinobi alliance (aside from Naruto and Bee).  Almost all the edos are preoccupied now and shonen manga almost always saves the strongest fighters for last.  People might argue Onoki has more hype now and while we can't judge until we see him fight, I feel like the fact that Raikage and Tsunade are the only people in the alliance not fighting is because they're being saved for the strongest edos.  They will likely fight Itachi and Nagato and while they aren't as strong as either, I'm sure they'll put up a great fight.  

Kishi wouldn't have taken off his arm if it would severely weaken him.  While conventional wisdom might tell us the Raikage has gotten a lot weaker, this is still a manga and his power will likely be unaffected by this.


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## ANBUONE (Mar 13, 2011)

I love garra and tend to feel he gets underrtaed, but really raikiage lighting shroud could bust throw any sand trap and lest be honest , gaara is not the fastest


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 13, 2011)

> If you respond back with half of your post consisting of smiles, I am not or half ass explanation I am not going to even bother responding.



Is that you defense mechanism so you don't look foolish when i laugh at you?For you to earn a post which is not filled with smiles, you have to stop with the laughable statements .I will laugh at you otherwise 




I agree, beating you is no longer fun 



> When have I done any of this? I try to the best of my abilities to stay on topic. I actually provide you with manga details that is back up by the manga to a T. So please do not get it twisted good sir.




Remember how 12 is more than 12?Remember how Sascake never had help except in his fight with Bee?

And there is more.Keep playing dumb.I will post the links in a vm.





> Your responses gets more outrageous with each new entry, I am curious as to how you plan to respond next.



I don't need to because you didn't prove me wrong.Sorry but statements like 

"However the statement doesn't imply that wouldn't be possible if the attack went through.", "Yes and it doesn't imply what you are trying to pass it off as." don't deserve better than 

I'll need better than because you say so, because you think..



> He face depicted terror good sir at that particular time.



No it didn't.If it did Kishi would've stated as such.I see zero implication 

On a serious note i really don't see him as terrified.He looks more like angry to me.



> He wasn't opting to get at Sasuke in that panel which is all that matters.



A minute later he was.That's all that matters 



> Sasuke didn't run or hid from Naruto tailed form though.



It's not under the same condition  If Sascake needed to receive medical attention and in the mean time have someone replace him in the fight im sure he wouldn't jump right back in when he sees the fox mode 




> Raikage didn't even opt to engage nor, is their any indication he planed to do so. In fact in that same panel C opts for the team to retreat, and Raikage gives no objective to the plan.
> 
> Chapter 144
> 
> Raikage wanted no part of Sasuke ON HIS OWN ACCORD, thus is why he wasn't against others attempting to take his life, after he failed to do so.



A didn't gave an objection to the plan and your point is what?He wanted to retreat?Good sir you really deserve no better than smiles.

Did they retreat or A told them to go after him a moment later?Maybe he was just too busy looking at the Susano to pay attention to what C was saying or caught in his own thoughts but you've again failed to prove me wrong.



> But that is not under the same condition Raikage was in. He was not stronger than Sasuke, in fact Sasuke was holding back, and still making him look like a fool.



WTF is this crap?First of all i never said A was stronger.I meant strong enough to fight Sascake.And second what fucking manga are you reading?What does it matter who is stronger than who?Don't you see what happens with the Edos and who are they defeated by?

So A is weaker than Sascake's Susano, who cares?Do you have to be stronger than all the jutsus in you opponents arsenal because otherwise you stand no chance?Everyone should be able to tank Rasen Shuriken otherwise they are weaker than Naru and they loose?

If Hidan is in his circle and and has already taken Sascake's blood, he stabs himself and Sascake dies, Hidan>Sascake?

If Naru's newest rasengan can destroy Susano, that automatically means Naru>Sascake and Sascake doesn't stand a chance in hell?

Did Sascake need to break Izanagi so he can kill Danzo or did he just had to outlast it?

Well A can outlast Susano and considering what happened a few moments after Sascake retreated to look for Danzo, A wouldn't have to avoid Susano's attacks for long if they are even any attacks at all to avoid.




> Raikage is also not way stronger than Gara, so your argument is mute.



 Remember what Lee did to Gaara?Now you are gonna tell me, A is not stronger than Lee?


The rest of the crap is fucking irrelevant.Whatever A would've had help or not is irrelevant.You know what happened in the manga.After he left A and co, Sascake was stuck defending and didn't attack anyone even once.And look in what condition Sascake was in:

*Chapter 487*

He couldn't even stay on his fucking feet and couldn't sustain the larger form.All A has to do is trow huge ass rocks at him until Sascake passes out.




> He knows A's strength can easily kill a person? How did he know that? Had he actually see Raikage fight?



No he didn't see A fight but saw A do this:


*Chapter 487*



> The fact is nothing implicates anything being harmed in the exchange but Raikage. Narutoantartard I don't why I even bother. I do not get payed to teach you the manga, nor does besting you an argument even fun anymore.



I don't get paid either and it's damn annoying having to post and post the pages you pretend do not exist to better suit your complete failure of an argument!

*Chapter 487*

And if it's not enough just looking at what condition Sascake is in , Mei flat out states it:

"Looks like *the fight with Raikage* really wore you out"



> His coughing of blood, was not significant enough to stop him from battling now was it?



And Gaara knew that how?Gaara knew Sascake wasn't badly hurt HOW?



If you continue to ignore manga pages and continue with the same fucking bullcrap, i'll be the one who stops responding to your ridiculous posts, because proving you wrong for the billionth time and you acting like it didn't happen in a desperate attempt to save face, is just not that fun anymore, and i don't have the time anyway  (but i will laugh)

So congratulations if boring me to death is your idea of beating me


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## ?_Camorra_? (Mar 13, 2011)

Raikage isnt overrated and we havent seen his full battle arsenal,he cracked Susanoo with a single blow if Sasuke wasnt saved by Gaara Raikage would have made short work of him.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Mar 13, 2011)

Waiting for Raikage to have a spammable version of Kirin. 

"b-b-b-but if he had that jutsu he would have used it against Sasuke in the fight and not give up an arm"

Obviously he couldn't use it against Sasuke because it would have destroyed everyone at the summit


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## Shin - Zangetsu (Mar 13, 2011)

OK, the argument that Raikage would lose to ranged combat is the dumbest ever. What's the single greatest disadvantage that range presents? The time it takes for the attack to traverse the distance. So the guy that can didge amaterasu at point bllank range would be weak in ranged combat? Come on....coooome oooon.

If anything ranged dudes can at the absolute best, hope for a stale mate in that he won't attack them, but that dude knows how to close distance like all raiton users do including Sasuke and Bee.


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## burstorm (Mar 13, 2011)

Everyone gets overrated at some point by someone. Just some food for thought.............


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## Spanktastik (Mar 13, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Isn't minato just as one dimensional?  Offensively as well?
> 
> Raikage one deminsional or not, has proven to be able to hold his own at least moderately well against someone as versatile as Sasuke.



Versatility is the most overrated aspect in the whole manga, many fighters like Naruto, KB, tobi, Gai and Raikage are quite 1 dimensional. 

I think he is overrated in the sense that he would ROFL stomp any shinobi with great ease cause he was fast enough to blitz Sasuke. So far he has been significantly slower in his striking speed then movement speed.

Also good luck on him beating Pain.... 

Sasuke couldnt keep up with him yet you argue Sasuke had the upper hand...  Raikage decided the pace and going of that fight, he choose to sacrifice his arm. Just lol and you are the one making people look stupid and want to teach them stuff? I am afraid people actually listen to you're bullshit and turn into the ones you fear them to be. 

Guys note the uchiha wank: Raikage could beat pain ( strongest figher in the manga) yet Sasuke ( inferior to Pain) dominated their clash. Just lol.


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That action has basically cost him, his career as a front line fighter. A pure taijutsu user that has lost his hand, is essentially gimped.



I think that was Kishi's cunning way of telling us that there's more to Ei than simple hand to hand combat. Don't be surprised if he has a mega ninjutsu attack or even genjutsu. The dude is the raikage!


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## Momentum (Mar 13, 2011)

That's Racist!


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## cry77 (Mar 13, 2011)

Jiraiyaaa- said:


> Gaaras sand couldnt keep up with Lee, what makes you think its gonna keep up with a Kage lvl speed??



because this isnt a fucking genin with zero skill at controlling sand 

its a fucking kage


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## Momentum (Mar 13, 2011)

cry77 said:


> because this isnt a fucking genin with zero skill at controlling sand
> 
> its a fucking kage


Doesn't Lightening beats ground


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## hitokugutsu (Mar 13, 2011)

^ Raikage V2 Lighning Shroud kick AND Amaterasu from Sasuke were both stopped by Gaara's Sand.

His Sand is not just Doton. He can increase the pressure by mixing it with his own chakra.


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## SharinganRinnegan (Mar 13, 2011)

*raikage is not overrated*

THE MOMENT PAIN DIED.... *excluding naruto and madara* RAIKAGE WAS THE STRONGEST NINJA ALIVE. 

why?
*1.* genjutsu doesnt work against him
*2.* no one can land a hit on him (*he is too fast*, how can u lose a fight if u never get hit?)
*3.* he can break through *any defense *(if *genin sasuke *can break though gaara sand, so can A)
*4.* he has *bjuu level *chakra! meaning he is durable, and has great stamina so he will outlast most
*5.* has armor! chidori, *one of the strongest piercing attacks*, barely poked him

CURRENTLY

only a few people can beat or put up a decent fight with him

naruto
sasuke
killer bee
madara
kakashi (-_-)

i have stated nothing but facts.... *raikage cannot be hit physically, nor with genjutsu*... thats all i need to know. *how can someone that cant be HIT or INJURED be overrated?*


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## SenSensei (Mar 13, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That action has basically cost him, his career as a front line fighter. A pure taijutsu user that has lost his hand, is essentially gimped.


That's what one might think, but if you look at his jutsu list, all of them except his Liger Bomb require one hand/arm.
Not to mention that there are so many wrestling moves that only require one arm/hand, so losing one arm to the Raikage is insignificant.
And in terms of hand seals, there jutsus that don't require them and one-handed seals are available if he needs to use jutsus that require seals.


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## Forlong (Mar 13, 2011)

Judecious said:


> learn to read, he one shotted Bee once he activated his MS jutsu



Please tell me you're joking.



> @senjuclan
> What feat does bee have with it? He said sasuke with 1 MS was the strongest guy he ever fought and you think Bee can beat sasuke with all 3 jutsu. Lol


Katon: Ryuuka no Jutsu
Not quite.  Also, Hachibi made it quite clear that Bee didn't need him to win.  Nice how the manga makes it so clear how far above Sasuke this guy is.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> "Stop the bleeding!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> Link removed
> 
> You sure you want to put all your stock in that sentence????????????


Interesting.  A, how do you feel about losing that arm?
"I have no regrets."

_You're_ the only one that wants to pretend that injury is anything but superficial to A.



> I know a trolling effort when I see it, that is my Q to just stop trying.
> 
> "If you had continued the attack, the black flames would have harmed you even more"
> 
> ...


Why would anyone in that room care if Gaara prevented Sasuke from getting hurt?  There was no reason for Gaara to bring it up either way.



> Except for the fact that he failed to do so, or even remotely come close. He traded his arm for a bruise and unlike your silly analysis, mines is actually supported on panel by the manga.
> 
> Dominating? When did he actually manage to harm Sasuke besides the blow that cost an arm, and almost a leg?


Sasuke caused exactly no damage that wasn't superficial.  A took his own arm.  He was the one that went into the Amaterasu.  Don't give me that crap about Sasuke planning that.  If he were thinking ahead that far, he would have _ducked_ and made A's sacrifice completely pointless.  Sasuke's move was a clever one, but he was to arrogant to think it might not work.  Thus, he ended up on the floor bleeding all over himself.  And that is pathetic.


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## Dboy2008 (Mar 13, 2011)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> THE MOMENT PAIN DIED.... *excluding naruto and madara* RAIKAGE WAS THE STRONGEST NINJA ALIVE.
> 
> why?
> *1.* genjutsu doesnt work against him



So umm....why exactly does genjutsu not work on the Raikage?


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## T-Bag (Mar 13, 2011)

Overrated cuz he's black right?


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 13, 2011)

Shin - Zangetsu said:


> OK, the argument that Raikage would lose to ranged combat is the dumbest ever. What's the single greatest disadvantage that range presents? The time it takes for the attack to traverse the distance. So the guy that can didge amaterasu at point bllank range would be weak in ranged combat? Come on....coooome oooon.
> 
> If anything ranged dudes can at the absolute best, hope for a stale mate in that he won't attack them, but that dude knows how to close distance like all raiton users do including Sasuke and Bee.



This guy put up a very good argument, Hope you guys arent overlooking it.


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## supersaiyan146 (Mar 13, 2011)

Momentum said:


> That's Racist!





Aari said:


> Overrated cuz he's black right?



 

Are these comments even necessary?


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 13, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> If this is your argument, then Raikage still got bested as he didn't damage Sasuke at ALL, while Sasuke did.
> 
> No matter how you slice it, Sasuke was embarrassing that man. How embarrasing must it be for the Raikage to leave to fight Sasuke with two arms, and come back with one?



Why do you fail so hard? Sasuke was on the defensive. If A was on the defensive too NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO one would be hurt. But A is a boss and doesnt cower behind his shield and collapse roofs and run away from fights.


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## cry77 (Mar 13, 2011)

Momentum said:


> Doesn't Lightening beats ground



sand is not doton..



sasuke is a piece of shit..

he didnt beat bee..


when bee managed to dodge the amaterasu..what would sasuke have done if he returned to kick his ass?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 13, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Is that you defense mechanism so you don't look foolish when i laugh at you?For you to earn a post which is not filled with smiles, you have to stop with the laughable statements .I will laugh at you otherwise


Once again you respond addressing pointless arguments. Where is the substance in your post? Are you spending more time arguing the manga, or witty come backs. 






> I agree, beating you is no longer fun


Yes, because you have provided a clear response, that not only argues my points, but successful thwarts them. Two stanza's in and I have yet to see something that even resembles responses to on topic points.  






> Remember how 12 is more than 12?Remember how Sascake never had help except in his fight with Bee?


3 stanza in, and one doesn't seem to be on topic.



> And there is more.Keep playing dumb.I will post the links in a vm.


4







> I don't need to because you didn't prove me wrong.Sorry but statements like


5. Are you ever going to address something related to the thread. 



> "However the statement doesn't imply that wouldn't be possible if the attack went through.", "Yes and it doesn't imply what you are trying to pass it off as." don't deserve better than
> 
> I'll need better than because you say so, because you think..


6. You failed to address any point relating to the discussion. You are avoiding the points because you know that you lost good sir. Thus is why you refuse to elaborate on them.







> On a serious note i really don't see him as terrified.He looks more like angry to me.


His actions does not depict an angry man. He is hiding behind a pillar, his jaw is dropped, and he gives no hint or sign he intends to engage Sasuke. Nor does he disagree with his comrade suggesting on retreating. Raikage face, actions were not that of an angry man.

We've seen what Raikage does when he is angry. He engages the enemy no matter what, with no disregard for his personal health. That was no angry Raikage good sir. 





> A minute later he was.That's all that matters


Sasuke was gone a minute later.





> It's not under the same condition  If Sascake needed to receive medical attention and in the mean time have someone replace him in the fight im sure he wouldn't jump right back in when he sees the fox mode


Sasuke didn't need medical attention against the Raikage. And against Bee, when he did, his fans couldn't hear the end of it. Still to this day, they point to an injured, toddler MS Sasuke needing help to compete against the second the strongest Jinchuuriki(at that time), who had full mastery of the second strongest Biju.

Sasuke dominated that fight, from start to finish. The one blow Raikage had throughout the battle, came at the cost of his arm and ended up doing jack shit to Sasuke in comparison. 






> A didn't gave an objection to the plan and your point is what?He wanted to retreat?Good sir you really deserve no better than smiles.


I give up, you are not even trying to compose a decent argument. You are responding for the sake of just saving face. You have no point, and you are no longer even trying to compose one.



> Did they retreat or A told them to go after him a moment later?Maybe he was just too busy looking at the Susano to pay attention to what C was saying or caught in his own thoughts but you've again failed to prove me wrong.


You failed  to make any points to prove wrong, and the few you did I proved wrong, thus is why you are omitting them from your responses.

I have yet to see you address how gara's statement "I want to talk to Sasuke" implies Sasuke dying. In fact you agreed with me, that this was his reason for leaving the meeting place. Thus how does this = Sasuke dying. 

You failed to actually disprove my analysis of the Raikage being scared, rather you opt to just give a new opinion rather than thwart mine. 







> WTF is this crap?First of all i never said A was stronger.I meant strong enough to fight Sascake.And second what fucking manga are you reading?What does it matter who is stronger than who?Don't you see what happens with the Edos and who are they defeated by?


You implying too such, in response to my example.

"I also assume you have the strength to fight him yourself and you are way stronger than those accompany you?"

Raikage did not have the strength to fight Sasuke himself long term, thus is why Kishi introduced Gara and the gang.

The rest of your assessment is off topic, as with almost half of your comeback thus far. 




> So A is weaker than Sascake's Susano, who cares?Do you have to be stronger than all the jutsus in you opponents arsenal because otherwise you stand no chance?Everyone should be able to tank Rasen Shuriken otherwise they are weaker than Naru and they loose?


He is weaker than Sasuke period, as Susano is apart of Sasuke's arsenal. And once again the rest of your assessment is off topic. Or is not even coherent. 



> If Hidan is in his circle and and has already taken Sascake's blood, he stabs himself and Sascake dies, Hidan>Sascake?
> 
> If Naru's newest rasengan can destroy Susano, that automatically means Naru>Sascake and Sascake doesn't stand a chance in hell?
> 
> Did Sascake need to break Izanagi so he can kill Danzo or did he just had to outlast it?


I don't understand what point you are trying to make.



> Well A can outlast Susano and considering what happened a few moments after Sascake retreated to look for Danzo, A wouldn't have to avoid Susano's attacks for long if they are even any attacks at all to avoid.


He cannot outlast Susano, if A doesn't attack Sasuke wont activate much like Danzo's Itzunagi. And clearly that wasn't A's plan A, as he was willing to injure himself seriously in his attempts to even remotely scratch Sasuke. 






> Remember what Lee did to Gaara?Now you are gonna tell me, A is not stronger than Lee?


That was like the first part of part 1 good sir.

And didn't lee lose that battle. In fact he was handicapped and required medical attention after that fight. Much like like Raikage vs. Sasuke. 




> The rest of the crap is fucking irrelevant.Whatever A would've had help or not is irrelevant.You know what happened in the manga.After he left A and co, Sascake was stuck defending and didn't attack anyone even once.And look in what condition Sascake was in:
> 
> http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-240/page017.html


He was left to defending, as their were more than one person assaulting him. It's like when a person if being jumped, by a grouo. They are going to ball up, and try to mitigate the damage.

The Kage's wasn't Sasuke's goal and Danzo's location was known, thus Sasuke had no reason to expend chakara attacking the Kage's anyway. Thus is why he left, once Karin found their location. Their was nothing to gain in killing the Kage's. 

And Sasuke used several jutsu's after battling the Raikage. Enton, Susano stage 2, chidori sword, Susano. 

Sasuke's condition was primarily do to the effects of Susano, and Amaterasu. Sasuke coughed up blood utilizing Susano in the Danzo battle. 

Link removed

Sasuke was only hit twice twice at the Kage summit, and none of them were serious. MS jutsu, is what was causing him harm in the Kage battle. Yes, Raikage attacking is somewhat responsible for the damage caused by MS, bo so where the other Kage's and their jounin counter parts. 

Every time, Sasuke had to expend energy, or utilizng MS to block an incoming attack by someone non Raikage it was costing him. Sasuke did not battle just the Raikage but the entire summit. Everyone outside of select few, took a cheap shot at Sasuke.  


> He couldn't even stay on his fucking feet and couldn't sustain the larger form.All A has to do is trow huge ass rocks at him until Sascake passes out.



Couldn't stay on his feet?
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Looks like he is standing of just fine to me good sir.

Throw a rock at Sasuke? It would seem he would rather throw his limbs at Sasuke.






> No he didn't see A fight but saw A do this:
> 
> 
> http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-240/page017.html


Does this transpire to what you are suggesting. You are suggesting he knew Raikage could kill Sasuke in single blow, when in fact he did not. That belief doesn't even make sense considering he arrive their well after the initial exchange. If his belief was that Raikage could one shot with a single blow, why isn't Sasuke long dead. He however saw the black flames on Raikage arm, and was well aware what that meant. He also saw the black flames about the injure his leg and he knew exactly what that meant.

The point is, is that he noted Raikage would have been injured, and did no such thing neither did he imply it to be the case. 





> I don't get paid either and it's damn annoying having to post and post the pages you pretend do not exist to better suit your complete failure of an argument!
> 
> http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-240/page017.html


Mizukage is words isn't far from the truth, however we know it isn't the entire truth. The entire summit contributed to the condition of Sasuke, including Sasuke. She does not know that Sasuke had to battle samurai's before, she does not know that Sasuke was fighting more than just the Raikage. She does not know that Sasuke has thwart off attacks from Gara and his squad, she does not know that the MS jutsu, especially Susano is taxing to the individual.

Please stop ignroing panels.
Link removed

Read Sasuke's assessment as to why he is truly in that condition. Sasuke's assessment > mei's. As he would know more about his body than she does. The effects of Susano, on top of depleting chakara reserves was the result of that condition. Several individuals including Raikage assisted in Sasuke having to push himself that far. 



> And if it's not enough just looking at what condition Sascake is in , Mei flat out states it:
> 
> "Looks like *the fight with Raikage* really wore you out"


Link removed

Sasuke accredit a different reason for his condition. We've as a reader seen the fight, and are well aware that Raikage did no serious harm to Sasuke. We as the reader are aware that Sasuke faced far more than just the Raikage before battling Mei. We as the reader are aware just how taxing MS jutsu are. Why do you do this? You know I am going to catch you in your attempt at trolling.

You my friend are closing your ears to the truth, and instead opt to rely on a characters opinion who is first and for most clueless; instead of actually analyzing everything that happened. 





> And Gaara knew that how?Gaara knew Sascake wasn't badly hurt HOW?


I was referring to the final exchange between Gara and Raikage. And Gara simply applied common sense. He see the Raikage seriously injured, and opts to prevent to keep him from injuring himself even more. Gara doesn't note Sasuke's condition, and neither is their implication that he cared if Sasuke was hurt. Given the fact that tried to off Sasuke himself after, Sasuke would not turn back with his decision.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 13, 2011)

Icegaze said:


> I think that was Kishi's cunning way of telling us that there's more to Ei than simple hand to hand combat. Don't be surprised if he has a mega ninjutsu attack or even genjutsu. The dude is the raikage!



And don't be surprised if Raikage never has a battle on the front lines again. 

However you could be right, but that wouldn't change a thing. Raikage losing his arm, is like a Uchiha losing an eye. Sure they could adjust and learn other things to compensate. However the fact that they were hindered by an injury so much so, that they had to compensate by changing their fighting style still makes the injury relevant.



SenSensei said:


> That's what one might think, but if you look at his jutsu list, all of them except his Liger Bomb require one hand/arm.
> Not to mention that there are so many wrestling moves that only require one arm/hand, so losing one arm to the Raikage is insignificant.
> And in terms of hand seals, there jutsus that don't require them and one-handed seals are available if he needs to use jutsus that require seals.



You are absolutely right on everything minus losing an arm to the Raikage not being significant. He is a taijutsu fighter, his harm is equivalent to an Uchiha's sharingan. Nagato lost the usage of his legs, and that affected his entire approach to battle. Sure he found a way to adjust, but to say that losing a limb is not significant is silly. 

Losing a hand would affect Raikage just as much as it would affect any person. It affects him in his every day life, just as it would affect any human, as well as combat. Could Raikage use the Raiga bomb without both arms, or produce the same impact as before? Could Raikage hit an opponent with his left arm at all? 

If one arm is occupied via object or being utilized blocked, could Raikage captilize with the other arm.

Yes Raikage incorporates wrestling moves in his arsenal, but the majority of his offense have been blows dealt by his arms.  

Link removed
This is no longer a smart move, as Raikage only has one arm now. If he charges is opponents, and the right hand gets blocked does he have the left to fire back?

This is no longer possible
Link removed

No left hand to support the right, and brace impact.

There are many moves in fighting, wrestling that requires the use of two arms. Without two arms Raikage is limited in his move selection, and must adjust to only having one harm to use in combat.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 13, 2011)

Forlong said:


> Interesting.  A, how do you feel about losing that arm?"I have no regrets."


And I am sure Sasuke, has no regrets in taking it. His feelings on the situation is irrelevant what is done, is done. It is not as if him sulking about it, is going to reattach it to his arm? It is not as if sulking is going to allow him to pull a piccolo. 



> _You're_ the only one that wants to pretend that injury is anything but superficial to A.


Oh it is good sir, and anyone with common sense would realize this. Raikage never stated that the injury did not affect him, he only mentioned that he has no regret in his actions(as stupid as they may be, especially given that Bee is alive and Sasuke is not dead). 

Ask yourself would losing an arm affect you? Would it affect your everyday life? Would it affect what you use in your spare time? Considering the fact you are typing on this message board on a regular bases I would shut the F up.

Raikage is a taijutsu fighter, part brawler/part wrestling and you mean to tell me that losing an arm is irrelevant to him? Once again you do not seem to be thinking before posting.




> Why would anyone in that room care if Gaara prevented Sasuke from getting hurt?  There was no reason for Gaara to bring it up either way.


You are absolutely right, however it would help the Author establish to the reader that Sasuke would have also fared badly in the exchange. Considering he didn't do a good job with the previous exchange, as Sasuke was barely injured by the blow, while Raikage was visually and in longer term fully affected by the exchange.

It would also help prove your argument good sir, as of right know you having nothing to support your assessment. 

If you agree that Gara didn't didn't bring it up, than have no point and no reason to respond to my assessment. You have nothing to support Raikage even producing something more than a bruise, or even breaking through susano + Kasgutchi. Remember his first attempt failed , and his second attempt accounted to nothing more than a bruise. How does one conclude Sasuke's death without purely bias? No manga statement, the correlation does not support it, the correlation is outright against it. 




> Sasuke caused exactly no damage that wasn't superficial.  A took his own arm.  He was the one that went into the Amaterasu.  Don't give me that crap about Sasuke planning that.  If he were thinking ahead that far, he would have _ducked_ and made A's sacrifice completely pointless.  Sasuke's move was a clever one, but he was to arrogant to think it might not work.  Thus, he ended up on the floor bleeding all over himself.  And that is pathetic.



But he caused damage, while Raikage failed to produce none. A arm was the price he paid to land a single blow to Sasuke. If you do not want to count Amaterasu to Raikage's arm, then don't count Raikage's single blow to Sasuke.

Sasuke still would be the winner of that fight. As he  manage to damage injure Raikage enough to draw blood. 

You are right ,there is no evidence nor do I think Sasuke would think Raikage would attack. However he did set up the conditions that if he did, it would cost him. He essentially placed himself in a win, win situation. Much like tic tac toe, where the the common strategy is to set up a win, win sitatuion. Much like checkers where, a common strategy is usually to trap an opponent forcing him into a lose, lose sitation.

Sasuke made a shield surrounded by fire, that could only produce to results that would benefit him. A backing the fuck up, allowing Sasuke time to come up with a strategy A la breathing room, or make him pay if he continue to assault him.

Raikage chose the later, and Sasuke rolled with it. Notice him trying the same trick twice the following chapter.

Link removed

Sasuke could have easily used the chakara to form a bigger Susano, instead he wanted to end to take Raikage out of the fight right then in their. If Raikage was going to blindly throw away his life, sasuke was did not object to assisting. 

This battle was one sided, and had their been anyone but Sasuke in that situation. Their would be no debate as to who the winner was. Had the situations been reverse their would be no discussion as to who dominated that battle. 

Raikage's sole hit in the fight costed him his arm. Raikage's sole hit in the fight was Sasuke's second hit, and was much, much, much more serious. Sasuke made Raikage a handicap. Yet the haters argue a tie. That was domination.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 13, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And I am sure Sasuke, has no regrets in taking it. His feelings on the situation is irrelevant what is done, is done. It is not as if him sulking about it, is going to reattach it to his arm? It is not as if sulking is going to allow him to pull a piccolo.
> 
> 
> Oh it is good sir, and anyone with common sense would realize this. Raikage never stated that the injury did not affect him, he only mentioned that he has no regret in his actions(as stupid as they may be, especially given that Bee is alive and Sasuke is not dead).
> ...



God dammit Tom Cruise, your still arguing about this arm? GET OFF THE SASCAKE'S HUBA-HUBA!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. How can someone who was on the DEFENSIVE be dominating anything? 
2. Why the fish are you talking about the arm loss affecting his everyday life? FFS..............
3. GET OFF SASUKE'S....aw nvm, said it already...
4. If I have to come back and see you talking about an arm loss any longer I'll have to go cook my dog. Seriously...the dude can shoryuken a big falling stone still...I think this arm lost reallyyyyyyyyyyy isnt a bother to him. HE CAN STILL ELBOWWWWWWW SHIT!(which is a legit move he does) Now what can you say to that?


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## Reisorr (Mar 13, 2011)

A stomped Sasuke. Sasuke was protected by plotsiheld. All the feats in that fight show that Raikage is MANY times stronger than Sasuke.

He has nothing but unlimited duration and unlimited strength Susanoo on Raikage.

What the fuck are you guys smoking ? 

He kills people with 1 punch and he suprasses Sharingan with speed.


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## KiddLaw92 (Mar 13, 2011)

Being honest Sasuke was winning that fight for a while until he underestimated A's resolve to win thus that Laiga Bomb would have finished him, unless he could activate his giant susanoo which I doubt. Despite this however the injuries that Raikage received would have probably killed him or left him unable to continue as a ninja.


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## Superstars (Mar 13, 2011)

Tell me, how can anyone in the narutoverse with reflexes on par with the fourth hokage, can not be seen by one of the legendary eyes of all time and physically ran through one of the most powerful jutsu's in Naruto [Amataretsu] be overrated?


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## machiavelli2009 (Mar 13, 2011)

yh now that i think about it the title of the thread is a little off. 
he isnt really overrated i think what Op was trying to point out is that there are at least a dozen shinobi would could put up a very good fight against Ei and half of them could actually win. 
his fighting style actually makes ninjutsu look silly, opponent forms seals he runs at them and punches them in the face the end. 
but also based on what he has shown so far, techniques such a toad gourd barrier and others at that level will put him in difficulty


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 13, 2011)

*IpHr0z3nI*, so you've gone from "lol i've never ignored manga evidence for realz  ", "you always look foolish when arguing with me" (continuing to waste my time with someone as hopeless as you are really looks bad on my part) to "Stay on tooooooooooooooooooooooooopic "


Newsflash you should've stayed on topic the first time and not resort to such desperate measures as to call me foolish for arguing with you and acting like im the one who always ignores manga evidence.

And i can count the times you were off topic as well.You do realize that when we count you loose miserably right?But than again im not that desperate 


And btw genius whatever A lost to Sascake or not, whoever was stronger and who made the other look more foolish is not on topic either.


-Repeating the same crap as ever i see?It's ok i will just laugh it off.You really think  "nothing implies it" is a valuable argument?It was made more than clear.You think that i give a crap if in your biased opinion it never meant that Sascake would've been killed?Sorry repeat as much as you want that Gaara didn't mean that until you believe it yourself but doesn't accomplish a damn thing.And please repeat  that i didn't address any of your points and then wonder why i laugh at you.Fair warning though i will laugh at you.You are clearly asking for it at this point.*I already said all i have to say on Gaara's words and you've failed to counter a damn thing so..*

 


-A's face expressions are same as always.And i already addressed why he was hiding behind the pillar and why he didn't object to the plan so please don't force me to repeat myself for the billionth time.

-You are more than obvious trying to save face here.Your counters are lame at best.Keep loosing credibility, you are doing a great job so far  I can't wait for your next "Stay on topic waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah", "you are not responding to my points! doesn't matter that you are responding to my personal attacks", "Don't laugh at me "

You do realize im not taking you seriously right?But suit yourself and keep on wasting your time.



> We've seen what Raikage does when he is angry. He engages the enemy no matter what, with no disregard for his personal health. That was no angry Raikage good sir.



REALLY?One hand is one thing but + other limbs is some else entirely.One more limb and he won't be able to fight Sascake.Even he had to think for a moment.There is a limit to one's recklessness unless you are suicidal.And yeah maybe A wanted to kill Sascake that badly, but if he knows that he will only be sacrificing himself and won't be able to take Sascake with him.. maybe thats why he was angry.Because he couldn't kill Sascake at that moment and he hates waiting.



> Sasuke was gone a minute later.:gigio




And A was right after his ass.



> And against Bee, when he did, his fans couldn't hear the end of it. Still to this day, they point to an injured, toddler MS Sasuke needing help to compete against the second the strongest Jinchuuriki(at that time), who had full mastery of the second strongest Biju.



First of all that has nothing to do with me and with the topic at hand 

Should i bring up all the ridiculous claims Uchihaha tards come up with in our argument to better suit mine?

And A didn't want to rush in to pointlessly loose other limbs to something as strong as full form Susano, without being able to finish Sascake in the process.



> Sasuke dominated that fight, from start to finish. The one blow Raikage had throughout the battle, came at the cost of his arm and ended up doing jack shit to Sasuke in comparison.



Sascake dominated the fight?Don't you get it you don't deserve anything better than smiles.No matter how many posts about me not addressing your points you write you can't dig yourself out.But just in case you are retarded enough to try i'll bold it all just in case:

*-A's first attack blocked by Suigetsu:

"And there's a limit to the chakra you manage to pull away from him"

-Next time they meet Sascake tries to sneek behind A, but fails.. miserably:

"And there's a limit to the chakra you manage to pull away from him"

-Sascake manages to avoid A's elbow and connect with chidori :

"And there's a limit to the chakra you manage to pull away from him"


-anyway A tanks and counterattacks but Sascake tanks as well and has a counter on his own:

"And there's a limit to the chakra you manage to pull away from him"
"And there's a limit to the chakra you manage to pull away from him"
Link removed


-A avoids Amaterasu with ease:

Link removed

-Sascake tries to protect himself with amaterasu but failes miserably:

Link removed
Link removed





A lost a hand?Nobody gives a crap but you.You are just trying to save face.

A received more damage in comparison? A wasn't gonna get killed because of a hand he didn't give a shit about.Sascake on the other hand was done fore if it wasn't for Zetsu and Faildara.



Should we count?We've been in argument like this before.You know damn well how it will go.*




> Raikage did not have the strength to fight Sasuke himself long term, thus is why Kishi introduced Gara and the gang.




When was it implied as such good sir where?Where is the fucking proof good sir?



> The rest of your assessment is off topic, as with almost half of your comeback thus far.
> 
> 
> He is weaker than Sasuke period, as Susano is apart of Sasuke's arsenal. And once again the rest of your assessment is off topic. Or is not even coherent.
> ...



ahhhahhahha..   Honestly.. 

My god you can't argue to save your life  

My point was as clear as day good sir.You don't need to be stronger than certain opponents jutsu to defeat them.You don't need to be able to destroy it.If certain justu is stronger than you doesn't mean SHIT (you still can beat the one using it by avoiding his attack at least and simply outlast it).



> He cannot outlast Susano, if A doesn't attack Sasuke wont activate much like Danzo's Itzunagi.





A can trow kunais, can trow rocks large enough to kill Sascake.And if Sascake is retarded enough to not use Susano to protect himself and tries to just dodge (not that he could.He couldn't even stand on his feet when he faced Mei) A can just slap him around.



> That was like the first part of part 1 good sir.
> 
> And didn't lee lose that battle. In fact he was handicapped and required medical attention after that fight. Much like like Raikage vs. Sasuke.



Part one, so what?Gaara has showed something in part two that would make him fair better against Lee's speed?

Lee was in that condition because of the gates.And Lee wasn't anywhere near as strong as A.First of all A doesn't need gates to be faster than Lee and second he only needs one or two hits max to deal with Gaara.




> He was left to defending, as their were more than one person assaulting him. It's like when a person if being jumped, by a grouo. They are going to ball up, and try to mitigate the damage.



Are you the king of the lamest excuses?Sascake blocked one attack from Mifune *ALONE* (and he wasn't even using Susano at that point).Then Sascake tried to chase after Danzo but Mei stopped him and  Chojuro attacked but after that it was just  Mei and him until Zetsu showed up.As Mei stated:

Link removed

*Now we are all alone.*


NOBODY GANG UP ON HIM AT THAT POINT, NOBODY!





> Sasuke was only hit twice twice at the Kage summit, and none of them were serious. MS jutsu, is what was causing him harm in the Kage battle. *Yes, Raikage attacking is somewhat responsible for the damage caused by MS*,



Glad we agree.



> bo so where the other Kage's and their jounin counter parts.



However A is responsible for the most of it.Tanking attacks doesn't take that much from Sascake as using Amaterasu while in Susano.



> Every time, Sasuke had to expend energy, or utilizng MS to block an incoming attack by someone non Raikage it was costing him. Sasuke did not battle just the Raikage but the entire summit. Everyone outside of select few, took a cheap shot at Sasuke.



Oh, please.A didn't just fight Sascake but Juugo as well.Darui didn't just get to hit Sascake (once or twice was it?) but he also had to fight Suigetsu, so it's all fair.

You have a point with Gaara and co's attack (cause they didn't fight anyone else)However they didn't accomplish anything A couldn't on his own.After all Sascake had what?A minute left to be able to stand on his feet?

And cheap shots?Then what you call Sascake trying to attack A from behind?



> Couldn't stay on his feet?



Oh my god.. i was referring to the page where he was alone with Mei..




> Throw a rock at Sasuke? It would seem he would rather throw his limbs at Sasuke.



Good one, however i can trow a brick at someone's face *with one hand* and take them out, yet i can only dream to be in A's league.



> Does this transpire to what you are suggesting. You are suggesting he knew Raikage could kill Sasuke in single blow, when in fact he did not. That belief doesn't even make sense considering he arrive their well after the initial exchange. If his belief was that Raikage could one shot with a single blow, why isn't Sasuke long dead. He however saw the black flames on Raikage arm, and was well aware what that meant. He also saw the black flames about the injure his leg and he knew exactly what that meant.
> 
> The point is, is that he noted Raikage would have been injured, and did no such thing neither did he imply it to be the case.



Are you fucking kidding me?This is the best you can do?Gaara knows, Sascake was already injured.Nothing suggest he wasn't at that point in time and if you have common sense and see what condition Sascake was in (not even trying to move.Blood on his face and looking worn out ) you would  assume he was injured.




The fuck is this crap?I never said it was A's hits that did the job.I never even suggest that it wasn't because of Sascake's Susano usage.It was still a result of his fight with A right?Granted he had to defend himself with Susano from Gaara and co but his fight with A is what wore him out the most.

Again with you trying to save face by turning the argument in a different direction.Did you or didn't you state that * nothing* suggest Sascake was harmed in his fight with A?Too bad we have that manga page right?


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## Dashido (Mar 13, 2011)

You guys saying strategy can take care of him are missing something. LOL he can react to just about anything, don't put him in the same tier with Itachi? how would itachi stop him ameterasu? genjutsu? CQC(ROFL!!) Susano'o? i'm willing to bet it'll kill itachi before it can even scratch raikage. Raiton blown away by Fuuton the hell WHAT fuuton is gonna hit him?! DOn't compare him to Minato? tich don't make me throw up, what Minato gonna kill him with rasengan?. No strategy you say? and imbecilic you say? Tell that he the countless lives in the war he just saved by preparing Amber pot . 

You people know he was blinded by rage an not in his right mind when he fight sasuke right? Just checking,.....His Right hand men know him beater then most likely anyone their and even they were shocked at his actions. Implying that he doesn't normally act in such a reckless way in combat, simple interpretation of character is all it takes to see that. Looks like some people are lacking in it .

How will Deidara ever hit the raikage? Will the explosive clay even affect him seeing as how hes covered in raiton armor, i know C4 ain't doing shit lol. I think he'll just jump and kill Deidara with a kick in the neck.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 13, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> God dammit Tom Cruise, your still arguing about this arm? GET OFF THE SASCAKE'S HUBA-HUBA!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 1. How can someone who was on the DEFENSIVE be dominating anything?


Sasuke was not anymore on the defensive than Raikage. Please read the fight. 
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Why do people half read the manga?


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## Paranoid Android (Mar 13, 2011)

A is pretty good. he has minato level speed with good defense. i still put him slightly below minato though because of the lack of variety of his attacks.

he's like... gai 6th gate power but all the time, which is pretty freakin impressive.


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## lathia (Mar 13, 2011)

Did you guys see how the anime ruined everything about Raikage?

-His voice sucks, he sound's like a testicle-less pirate. 
-His SSJ shroud is freaking ugly and is poorly animated .

I wish they paid more attention to these details... Ok, I contributed to this argument!


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## Setsuna00 (Mar 13, 2011)

The Raikage is fast as heck. Plus he is impulsive and unpredictable for how much they chatter so much during battles, you can't win if you don't have time to talk. Therefore he is elite.


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## jimbob631 (Mar 13, 2011)

I hope he still has a few skills he hasn't shown.  Maybe he'll be able to open gates, someone other than Gai and Lee should be able to do it.


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## Skywalker (Mar 13, 2011)

lathia said:


> Did you guys see how the anime ruined everything about Raikage?
> 
> -His voice sucks, he sound's like a testicle-less pirate.
> -His SSJ shroud is freaking ugly and is poorly animated .


It's not a big deal.


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## SaVaGe609 (Mar 13, 2011)

At this point you could make an "overrated" thread AND an "underrated" thread for every character, as long as you can back it up. Every character is both, so there will always be counter arguments. 

So yes, he is most certainly overrated in the forums. I'm sure he is, to a lesser extent, underrated. The fact that he defeated the most plot-shielded character is enough to win me over


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## Paranoid Android (Mar 13, 2011)

SaVaGe609 said:


> At this point you could make an "overrated" thread AND an "underrated" thread for every character, as long as you can back it up. Every character is both, so there will always be counter arguments.
> 
> So yes, he is most certainly overrated in the forums. I'm sure he is, to a lesser extent, underrated. The fact that he defeated the most plot-shielded character is enough to win me over



it was a tie, although sasuke was the one who was exhausted and withdrew.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 13, 2011)

Dashido said:


> You guys saying strategy can take care of him are missing something. LOL he can react to just about anything, don't put him in the same tier with Itachi? how would itachi stop him ameterasu? genjutsu? CQC(ROFL!!) Susano'o? i'm willing to bet it'll kill itachi before it can even scratch raikage. Raiton blown away by Fuuton the hell WHAT fuuton is gonna hit him?! DOn't compare him to Minato? tich don't make me throw up, what Minato gonna kill him with rasengan?. No strategy you say? and imbecilic you say? Tell that he the countless lives in the war he just saved by preparing Amber pot .
> 
> You people know he was blinded by rage an not in his right mind when he fight sasuke right? Just checking,.....His Right hand men know him beater then most likely anyone their and even they were shocked at his actions. Implying that he doesn't normally act in such a reckless way in combat, simple interpretation of character is all it takes to see that. Looks like some people are lacking in it .
> 
> How will Deidara ever hit the raikage? Will the explosive clay even affect him seeing as how hes covered in raiton armor, i know C4 ain't doing shit lol. I think he'll just jump and kill Deidara with a kick in the neck.



This dude got the right shit in mind.


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## SenSensei (Mar 13, 2011)

lathia said:


> Did you guys see how the anime ruined everything about Raikage?
> 
> -His voice sucks, he sound's like a testicle-less pirate.
> -His SSJ shroud is freaking ugly and is poorly animated .
> ...


His voice doesn't fit, it sounds a bit lolzy, not something you would imagine. I agree with that.
However, his shroud is badass, it looks good.


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Mar 13, 2011)

Overrated? ......Sasuke would have been dead had it not been for a Susanoo/Amaterasu combo.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Going to shorten this response, and only respond to the points relating to the thred.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 14, 2011)

> *Your points are not coherent and when proven wrong, you seem to make up knew points. The battle was about Sasuke vs. Raikage. Not Sasuke vs. the Summit.
> *



You are the one who brought it up good sir after i showed you a page in which Mei states that Sascake was wore out because of his fight with A so please stop wasting my time with such silly claims.If someone is trying to change the subject it's you.



> Raikage did shit to Sasuke point blank period. While Raikage lost his arm.



You have no argument worth responding to point blank period.




> Think for a moment? He sure wasn't thinking when he decided to this
> 
> Your excuses you keep pulling for the Raikage doesn't make sense.
> 
> *Raikage was indeed suicidal, and it was only Gara's words that he began to use his noggin. It's sad that your argument is contradicted by the manga. *




Actually they are not good sir.I never said A was thinking clearly before Gaara interrupted.I only said that he was thinking when behind the pillar.



> With his crew behind him right.



You are not even trying are you?A had his crew with him when he was behind the pillar as well.



> He wasn't.
> this
> 
> The panel doesn't support your claim.
> ...



 keyword in my quote "full form Susano"




> But the difference is Sasuke's blow connected, Raikages didn't. Thus Sasuke 1-0.



 

Link removed

Sascake: "OOH"

Sascake's pathetic chidori didn't even accomplish that much 

I don't know what the hell is this bullcrap you are wasting my time with.Doesn't matter if Sascake planed it all along, A willingly sacrificed his arm to be able to finish Sascake and he damn sure would have if not for Gaara.

But lets count:

Sascake manages one hit with chidori that doesn't do much and A connects with a powerbomb that doesn't do much either.1-1

A sacrifices an arm he doesn't give two shits about to hit Sascake 1-1

But because of that A was gonna finish Sascake even though he wold've received even more damage but the important thing is that Sascake would've been dead!

And please spare me the pathetic responses like "not such thing is implied waaaaaaaaaaaaah" cause i don't give a crap anymore and im just gonna ignore it.



> So, this is how desperate we have become. You are now involving others, into the conversation. I thought we were focusing on Sasuke vs. Raikage.
> Zetsu and Faildara intervention, is only fair given Raikage had intervention as well. I love this double standard you ignore.




Oh my god  You are beyond desperate."It's only fair waaaaaaaaaaaah" what the fuck does this have to do with my argument?


Im not bashing Sascake for receiving help genius.The argument is about who receieved more damage out of A and Sascake not who got more help..   jesus christ



> You even imply this yourself. By stating Sasuke needed Madara/Zetsu help. It was certainly not solely from the Raikage.



Oh my god  Did you even see what you write?



> Raikage certainly not planning to outlast the attack, so your point doesn't relate to the discussion.



Yes it's easy to say that now after loosing the argument although in one of your previous posts you stated no such thing and instead said that A can't outlast it.



> You are basically admitting Raikage couldn't handle Sasuke on his own, thus is why you are using feats performed by others. Please stop arguing, as you are wasting my time and yours.
> 
> Yes, because Sasuke was at maximum health at that point? Please stop selective reading good sir.




Keep loosing whatever credibility you have left  

Do you even know what you are responding to?What are you on?


The argument dear sir was that Sascake was stuck defending because more than one person was attacking him the whole time.Please stop embarrassing yourself.



> Vs. Others
> Chodori sword against Samurai
> MS genjutsu vs. Shi
> Enton Gara
> ...



Chidori sword really?You can't be that desperate.Eye techniques is what wore him out the most and he used them the most against A.




> Blood on his face doesn't mean shit. Only the Raikage was noted to be in serious condition. You continue to post irrelevant shit, and omit key points that is made by me.






A loosing his hand doesn't mean *SHIT* either but you continue and continue to use it as an argument.




> You are not even a decent challenge anymore(although you never were).



Yes you aren't.You even start pwning your own pathetic arguments.


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## joernyA the white flasch (Mar 14, 2011)

narutotantaratard wrote: A sacrifices an arm he doesn't give two shits about to hit Sascake 1-1

--> So you really belive A didn't give a damn about his arm? he wanted to kill sasuke and was bloodlusted but you make it seem like he just doesn't care about his arm




Thread is getting shitstormed the recent disucission has nothing to do with with the topic
Narutotard and the other guy are discussing this like two damn children
stop saying how desperate or dumb the other is and stick to facts
Raikage and Sasuke would both have been dead so it was a draw
raikage wouldn't have survive another amaterasu and sasuke wouldn't have survived another hit 

on Topic
He is overrated in the sense that he isn't on Ueber Kage Level like Itachi,Minato,Hashirama,Madara, (or even Bee) as some people see him

Besides that he is an incredible strong shinobi but i wouldn't put him on another level than Gaara(watch him in the next fight) or Onoki (Dust release!)


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## joernyA the white flasch (Mar 14, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> A loosing his hand doesn't mean *SHIT* either but you continue and continue to use it as an argument.



of course losing an arm means something

A can't regenerate it like Madara did


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## Forlong (Mar 14, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> He is weaker than Sasuke period, as Susano is apart of Sasuke's arsenal.


Sorry, but as A knows to listen and take the advice of others, he's a greater shinobi than Sasuke by default.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> And I am sure Sasuke, has no regrets in taking it. His feelings on the situation is irrelevant what is done, is done. It is not as if him sulking about it, is going to reattach it to his arm? It is not as if sulking is going to allow him to pull a piccolo.


Sasuke didn't take the arm.  It's quite clear he wasn't thinking that far ahead otherwise he would have ducked.
"I have no regrets."
If he were planning on that possibility, like anyone who isn't an idiot, he would have ducked and let the flames above his head take A's arm in an attack that did nothing.  However, the attack did connect and Sasuke was on the floor bleeding all over himself.  I didn't see that happen to A, the "loser".



> Oh it is good sir, and anyone with common sense would realize this. Raikage never stated that the injury did not affect him, he only mentioned that he has no regret in his actions(as stupid as they may be, especially given that Bee is alive and Sasuke is not dead).
> 
> Ask yourself would losing an arm affect you? Would it affect your everyday life? Would it affect what you use in your spare time? Considering the fact you are typing on this message board on a regular bases I would shut the F up.
> 
> Raikage is a taijutsu fighter, part brawler/part wrestling and you mean to tell me that losing an arm is irrelevant to him? Once again you do not seem to be thinking before posting.


Apparently, expecting you to figure it out yourself wasn't realistic.  A became Kakuro's superior officer that day.  He knew Kakuro was a puppet master.  Even if he didn't know about limb replacement, Gaara would have told him.  He would need to know what his army is capable of and it would make sense to offer a replacement for a lost limb to the Supreme Leader.  Yet, despite having over a week, A has not taken a replacement.  And, even with one arm, he was still quite confident that he could take two Jinchuriki at the same time.  Sasuke can't even handle one.  Compared to A, Sasuke is a frickin' joke.

_What_ about A's behavior after the fact shows that losing his arm was anything but minor?  Answer: nothing.  You're just making shit up to make Sasuke look better.  And why do you feel you need to do that.  I get it.  You like Sasuke, but that doesn't mean Sasuke can never lose or fail.



> You are absolutely right, however it would help the Author establish to the reader that Sasuke would have also fared badly in the exchange. Considering he didn't do a good job with the previous exchange, as Sasuke was barely injured by the blow, while Raikage was visually and in longer term fully affected by the exchange.


"I have no regrets."
Sasuke is clearly suffering from internal bleeding.  I'm also positive that the blood flooding his brain kept him from thinking straight.  Because I don't think he'd be stupid enough not to think to roll out of the way of that attack unless he was mentally impaired in some fashion.  But hey, if you want to believe Sasuke is dumber than a sack of hammers, be my guest.

Also, if you read the manga, you'd see that after Gaara's interference, Sasuke was on his hands and knees.  It took probably a minute (rough estimate) for him to be able to stand up again.
"I have no regrets."
Yet A was hardly slowed down from losing his arm.  I'd hate to be as "barely injured" as Sasuke.  You either have to believe that it was an internally severe injury or that Sasuke is a complete wimp.  Pick one!



> It would also help prove your argument good sir, as of right know you having nothing to support your assessment.


Basic logic.

Fact 1: The Susano'o was partly broken and A was aiming for the hole.  It wouldn't have done anything.

Fact 2: Fire Jutsu has two states: burning and concussive.  A concussive blast could have, in theory, slowed A down and lessened the damage.  However, a concussive blast would be an explosion, _not_ what Sasuke was forming.  Those were basic flames meant to cause harm.  Once again, I do have to stress that Sasuke's injury was probably keeping him from thinking clearly, because I'm sure he's not that stupid.

Fact 3: If a big guy lands on your chest, you're not getting back up.



> Sasuke still would be the winner of that fight. As he  manage to damage injure Raikage enough to draw blood.


Sasuke didn't win.  A didn't win.  The fight was interrupted.  Also, if you want to be technical, A won.  Because Sasuke technically ran away.  However, it doesn't matter because the fight was interrupted.  It doesn't matter how much either of them bleed or who struck first.  That's not how it works.  This isn't a Mortal Kombat game.



> You are right ,there is no evidence nor do I think Sasuke would think Raikage would attack. However he did set up the conditions that if he did, it would cost him. He essentially placed himself in a win, win situation. Much like tic tac toe, where the the common strategy is to set up a win, win sitatuion. Much like checkers where, a common strategy is usually to trap an opponent forcing him into a lose, lose sitation.
> 
> Sasuke made a shield surrounded by fire, that could only produce to results that would benefit him. A backing the fuck up, allowing Sasuke time to come up with a strategy A la breathing room, or make him pay if he continue to assault him.


He didn't think to duck, thus he wasn't thinking that far ahead.  He was just thinking "I've got to keep him from hitting me".  To bad his plan didn't work.  Come on, I don't even have to read "The Art of War" to know that's a flawed strategy.  You should always expect the worst from your opponents, so you won't be surprised when they do their worst.  Sasuke _should_ have prepared himself for A sacrificing part of his body for victory.  Especially since Sasuke was doing the _exact same thing_.



> Raikage chose the later, and Sasuke rolled with it. Notice him trying the same trick twice the following chapter.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> Sasuke could have easily used the chakara to form a bigger Susano, instead he wanted to end to take Raikage out of the fight right then in their. If Raikage was going to blindly throw away his life, sasuke was did not object to assisting.


And Sasuke would have had a big flaming hole in his chest.  General Paton, he is not.



> This battle was one sided, and had their been anyone but Sasuke in that situation. Their would be no debate as to who the winner was. Had the situations been reverse their would be no discussion as to who dominated that battle.


No it wasn't.  Also, Naruto could have done fathom better.  I'm just sayin'.



> Raikage's sole hit in the fight costed him his arm. Raikage's sole hit in the fight was Sasuke's second hit, and was much, much, much more serious. Sasuke made Raikage a handicap. Yet the haters argue a tie. That was domination.


Sasuke used jutsu that caused him to go blind.  But I guess needlessly sacrificing body parts is only stupid when people who aren't Sasuke do it.


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## Liverbird (Mar 14, 2011)

Actually....I thought he's underrated.


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 14, 2011)

*joernyA the white flasch
*


Link removed

A:

"HMPH"

That's how much he cared about his arm.

and look this page as well:

Link removed



> Narutotard and the other guy are discussing this like two damn children
> stop saying how desperate or dumb the other is and stick to facts



But it's so much fun 

If it'll do any good i apologize.



> Raikage and Sasuke would both have been dead so it was a draw
> raikage wouldn't have survive another amaterasu and sasuke wouldn't have survived another hit



A would of lost another limb but survived.






*
Spoiler:  





Forlong said:



			Sorry, but as A knows to listen and take the advice of others, he's a greater shinobi than Sasuke by default.


Sasuke didn't take the arm.  It's quite clear he wasn't thinking that far ahead otherwise he would have ducked.
"I have no regrets."
If he were planning on that possibility, like anyone who isn't an idiot, he would have ducked and let the flames above his head take A's arm in an attack that did nothing.  However, the attack did connect and Sasuke was on the floor bleeding all over himself.  I didn't see that happen to A, the "loser".


Apparently, expecting you to figure it out yourself wasn't realistic.  A became Kakuro's superior officer that day.  He knew Kakuro was a puppet master.  Even if he didn't know about limb replacement, Gaara would have told him.  He would need to know what his army is capable of and it would make sense to offer a replacement for a lost limb to the Supreme Leader.  Yet, despite having over a week, A has not taken a replacement.  And, even with one arm, he was still quite confident that he could take two Jinchuriki at the same time.  Sasuke can't even handle one.  Compared to A, Sasuke is a frickin' joke.

What about A's behavior after the fact shows that losing his arm was anything but minor?  Answer: nothing.  You're just making shit up to make Sasuke look better.  And why do you feel you need to do that.  I get it.  You like Sasuke, but that doesn't mean Sasuke can never lose or fail.


"I have no regrets."
Sasuke is clearly suffering from internal bleeding.  I'm also positive that the blood flooding his brain kept him from thinking straight.  Because I don't think he'd be stupid enough not to think to roll out of the way of that attack unless he was mentally impaired in some fashion.  But hey, if you want to believe Sasuke is dumber than a sack of hammers, be my guest.

Also, if you read the manga, you'd see that after Gaara's interference, Sasuke was on his hands and knees.  It took probably a minute (rough estimate) for him to be able to stand up again.
"I have no regrets."
Yet A was hardly slowed down from losing his arm.  I'd hate to be as "barely injured" as Sasuke.  You either have to believe that it was an internally severe injury or that Sasuke is a complete wimp.  Pick one!


Basic logic.

Fact 1: The Susano'o was partly broken and A was aiming for the hole.  It wouldn't have done anything.

Fact 2: Fire Jutsu has two states: burning and concussive.  A concussive blast could have, in theory, slowed A down and lessened the damage.  However, a concussive blast would be an explosion, not what Sasuke was forming.  Those were basic flames meant to cause harm.  Once again, I do have to stress that Sasuke's injury was probably keeping him from thinking clearly, because I'm sure he's not that stupid.

Fact 3: If a big guy lands on your chest, you're not getting back up.


Sasuke didn't win.  A didn't win.  The fight was interrupted.  Also, if you want to be technical, A won.  Because Sasuke technically ran away.  However, it doesn't matter because the fight was interrupted.  It doesn't matter how much either of them bleed or who struck first.  That's not how it works.  This isn't a Mortal Kombat game.


He didn't think to duck, thus he wasn't thinking that far ahead.  He was just thinking "I've got to keep him from hitting me".  To bad his plan didn't work.  Come on, I don't even have to read "The Art of War" to know that's a flawed strategy.  You should always expect the worst from your opponents, so you won't be surprised when they do their worst.  Sasuke should have prepared himself for A sacrificing part of his body for victory.  Especially since Sasuke was doing the exact same thing.


And Sasuke would have had a big flaming hole in his chest.  General Paton, he is not.


No it wasn't.  Also, Naruto could have done fathom better.  I'm just sayin'.


Sasuke used jutsu that caused him to go blind.  But I guess needlessly sacrificing body parts is only stupid when people who aren't Sasuke do it.
		
Click to expand...




*


*Mothefucking great post!Absolute beast!*


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 14, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> *joernyA the white flasch
> *
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed................................


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## Agony (Mar 14, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> A would of lost another limb but survived.


no.susanoo activates in an instant.sasuke could have survived if he activates susanoo.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

joernyA the white flasch said:


> narutotantaratard wrote: A sacrifices an arm he doesn't give two shits about to hit Sascake 1-1
> 
> --> So you really belive A didn't give a damn about his arm? he wanted to kill sasuke and was bloodlusted but you make it seem like he just doesn't care about his arm


Silly 






> Thread is getting shitstormed the recent disucission has nothing to do with with the topic


That would be the other guy, in which half of his post consist of shit unrelated to the discussion. 


> Narutotard and the other guy are discussing this like two damn children
> stop saying how desperate or dumb the other is and stick to facts
> Raikage and Sasuke would both have been dead so it was a draw
> raikage wouldn't have survive another amaterasu and sasuke wouldn't have survived another hit


But their is no evidence to support Sasuke dieing. If you have it then please present it. To call it a mere tie is a cop out, and a disservice to Sasuke. Correlation doesn't support Sasuke to be dead out the exchange, bigger Susano if necessary also supports it.


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## Klue (Mar 14, 2011)

joernyA the white flasch said:


> That Guy is the most one dimensional fighter we know
> 
> So how can people compare him to the likes of Itachi and Minato
> after we already saw that MS Sasuke(how hadn't full powered Susanno) would be an even match for him
> ...



The Raikage is overrated because your imagination says he can't do this or that?

Right.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Mar 14, 2011)

raikage is pretty darn durable and fast too, he has a good defence with the use of his raiton armour which can also be used as offence for his nintaijutsu.

however saying that its pretty clear that KB would smash him to smitherines in a 1v1 fight.

i would also say that gaara's regular shield of sand Chapter 436

will stop the majority of raikage's attacks, however when gaara decides to use his hardered sand defence Chapter 436 im pretty sure the raikage punches straight through it.


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## Spanktastik (Mar 14, 2011)

About the whole Sasuke vs Raikage thingie.... Raikage was quite willingly ( if its a smart choice is a second) about giving up his arm in other to finish Sasuke quick. 

Raikage dominated the match, if some diluted Sasuke fans wanna interpretent it as a win of Sasuke, I agree with a smile.


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## sinjin long (Mar 14, 2011)

LOL @ ^ totally Agree,i'm still roflmao at the explanation that it wasnt the blunt force trauma that raikage inflicted,but rather now susanno causes internal bleeding.

i could've swore it consumed life force,don't remember reading anything about causing bleeding? i believe the rose colored evidence was Itachi coughing up blood,not that he had a disease or was infact at death's door, only still alive thru drugs or anything,it was susanno the whole time,apparently.

who knew? lol


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

Spanktastik said:


> Versatility is the most overrated aspect in the whole manga, many fighters like Naruto, KB, tobi, Gai and Raikage are quite 1 dimensional.


I apologize for the late response, but you obviously want the attention.

I do not disagree with your analyze here good sir. 



> I think he is overrated in the sense that he would ROFL stomp any shinobi with great ease cause he was fast enough to blitz Sasuke. So far he has been significantly slower in his striking speed then movement speed.



I think you ignore it isn't just his super speed, but essentially his super strength and his fighting style in general. His abilities are not of that of a ninja, more akin to a low level DBZ hybrid he is in the wrong manga. 




> Also good luck on him beating Pain....


He has the potential as it is not an argument of who is stronger, but how they match up. 





> Sasuke couldnt keep up with him yet you argue Sasuke had the upper hand...  Raikage decided the pace and going of that fight, he choose to sacrifice his arm. Just lol and you are the one making people look stupid and want to teach them stuff? I am afraid people actually listen to you're bullshit and turn into the ones you fear them to be.


And Raikage couldn't touch Sasuke without losing a limb. Raikage decided nothing. He wasn't actually able to outpace Sasuke, until well into the fight. Sasuke countered the inability to keep up, with making himself untouchable.
Chapter 436

He may have chosen to punch Sasuke, but it was Sasuke's jutsu that cost Raikage his arm. It was Sasuke's tactic that placed Sasuke in the win, win position, and Raikage in the lose, lose.

Yes, the arguments(the same arguments being reiterated by haters) are rather silly all together.

Raikage chose to lose his arm? Yes. Because he decided to attack a Sasuke surounded by Susano. If you count Raikage's attack against Sasuke, you must count Sasuke's attack against Raikage. They traded blows essentially. I doubt Sasuke would coat Susano with Amaterasu, if that wasn't one of it's functions. Just like police are not equip with guns just to deter suspects from resisting. 

You argue that my points are bullshit, yes you never took the liberty to explain why. As I clearly showed you. It is only bullshit because you disagree, not because it doesn't make sens. 




> Guys note the uchiha wank: Raikage could beat pain ( strongest figher in the manga) yet Sasuke ( inferior to Pain) dominated their clash. Just lol.


Once again you prove just how illogical of the manga you are. You are essentially trying to pull the ABC logic when time, and time again individuals have proven that such doesn't work in the top tier levels. Does Sasuke and Pain possess the same abilities? Do they have the same approach to battle? Does Pain have the same advantages over Sasuke, as he does with the Raikage. In other words PLEASE UNDERSTAND THE MANGA. ABC logic doesn't work in any manga where a battle is decided by more than just power levels. 

You seem not to be able to comprehend Naruto, maybe you need something with define power levels such as DBZ to understand.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> LOL @ ^ totally Agree,i'm still roflmao at the explanation that it wasnt the blunt force trauma that raikage inflicted,but rather now susanno causes internal bleeding.
> 
> i could've swore it consumed life force,don't remember reading anything about causing bleeding? i believe the rose colored evidence was Itachi coughing up blood,not that he had a disease or was infact at death's door, only still alive thru drugs or anything,it was susanno the whole time,apparently.
> 
> who knew? lol



Oh really?

Chapter 436

What is coming from Sasuke's mouth good sir.

Surely that is not spit, or the orange juice Sasuke had for breakfast.

More orange juice top right panel.
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

It's funny how it is so easy to make someone look foolish with the click of a button. "READ THE MANGA BEFORE RESPONDING' 

Sinjin Long how many times must I teach you this?


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 14, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Listening to advice of others, is big part of why he is currently the man he is today. Itachi: "You lack hatred"..................
> 
> Well Itachi, I think Sasuke has you beat in that department now.
> 
> ...



I didnt bother to read this no-life ish post of yours but Im sure somewhere in here you're still saying Raikage losing his arm is a big deal or something, lol.  Lord........Guess I gotta go cook my cat afterall :/


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> I didnt bother to read this no-life ish post of yours but Im sure somewhere in here you're still saying Raikage losing his arm is a big deal or something, lol.  Lord........Guess I gotta go cook my cat afterall :/



That would explain. Why your responses looks silly.
And losing an arm is not a big deal? Really.

Cut your arm off right now, and judge if it's a big deal. 

Lol. 

And you claim that I have no life, yet you reside to involve yourself in something you obviously have no interest in. Isn't that not having any life by it's very definition. 

You obviously have no intentions other than, just to annoy. As you give no opinion, nor do your take the time to read others opinion before responding. Thus comes to question? Why are you here?


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 14, 2011)

P.S
A only lost 1/4 of his arm...he may replace it with something in the future 
Anyway...wanna know how A wouldve defeated a amaterasu engulfed Susanoo Sasuke? Uhm....by OUTLASTING HIM? People act like Susanoo and Amaterasu are things that can be maintained indefinitely and would not falter at anytime....
Newsflash! It pains like shit! It will weaken from time to time creating something called OPENINGS. Geez...


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2011)

I actually think Raikage is rather underrated on these forums. Raikage is nearly untouchable considering that he is capable of evading attacks even as fast as Amaterasu and even if you land a hit on him you have to be able to pierce his Raiton Armor, which possess a great enough defense to protect Raikage from Sasuke's Chidori [which is one of the best piercing techniques in the manga]. Also because Raikage's attacks are exceedingly difficult to evade, even Sasuke who is remarked to be very fast and has Sharingan Prediction was incapable of evading Raikage's attacks when Raikage used his higher speeds. 

Finally Raikage's attacks are very powerful, considering his incredible physical strength which is given extra piercing qualities via his Raiton Armor. Raikage with a single punch pierced through CS2 Juugo's Shield and his body like it was nothing, and we know CS2 provides pretty high defense [Example: CS2 Sasuke block KN1's Chakra Claw Attack and Deidara's C2 Missile]. We also saw Raikage break through Mini Susano'o's ribs like they were nothing with his attacks as well and we know even Mini Susano'o is fairly durable [Example: Blocking Choujiro's sword attack and Mei's Youton].

There isn't much a Shinobi can do against Raikage when all of their attacks can be easily evaded or tanked and they can't evade Raikage's own attacks which would KO most Shinobi in one hit.

When it comes to Raikage vs Sasuke. Raikage was not in his right mind during that battle, he was bloodlusted over the fact that the man he assumed killed or at least captured his brother was standing before him. It was even remarked on in the manga, that Raikage's hot headed nature would lessen once he found out his brother was okay:

_The Raikage will likely be able to contain himself better than before. // My earlier words may have been spoken in haste... I ask that you forgive me. // Furthermore, the Raikage-dono has been taking control of the situation effectively for a while now... / ...and was also quick to propose a solution_.

So the way Raikage fought Sasuke is not the way he would typically fight and thus we can assume the battle between Sasuke and Raikage would have gone differently, if Raikage's mind-set was normal going into that battle. However admittedly whether or not Raikage would do any better against Sasuke with a normal Mind-set could be debated ether way based on personal opinion. 

But at least in my opinion I would think [or rather hope that a man put in charge of a village and alliance of the 5 great nations is intelligent enough] that  when not bloodlusted he would realize that all he needed to do is out last Sasuke while evading his attacks, rather than needing to actually pierce through Sasuke's Susano'o/Enton defense. Because of this I see him winning with a normal mind-set with Mid difficulty, in-fact I can see Raikage defeating even the Sasuke that faced Danzo, simply because he can evade all of his attacks and outlast him. 

When it comes to how Raikage stacks up to Minato and Itachi. They are all fairly strong Kage Class Shinobi, so i'd say they are in the same general tier and no matter who won it would be a difficult battle ether way.


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## Reddan (Mar 14, 2011)

Raikage is not overrated in my opinion. He is the supreme commander of the joint shinobi alliance. This alone should speak volumes for his power. When judging his power I would place him around the level of the Sannin. He is around their age group and imagine he maybe slightly weaker or slightly stronger, but overall a fight between any of the four could go either way. He is still weaker than his brother Bee, Sasuke, Itachi, Danzo, Nagato, Minato and Madara. However, stronger than the likes of Hanzo, Gaara, Ohnoki, Mifune and Mei.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 14, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That would explain. Why your responses looks silly.
> And losing an arm is not a big deal? Really.
> 
> Cut your arm off right now, and judge if it's a big deal.
> ...



*Maximum FACEPALM*
Look here my child. Go to the top of your post....and scroll down to the bottom of your post and just admire its length and how no-life ish it is. Just...go do it.
And why are you trying to compare my resiliance to................Raikage's? Seriously? I would scream like a bitch if I lost a finger. But you keep missing the point. IT WASNT A BIG DEAL TO HIMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!! I will break it down for you some more. When something isnt important to you...its not a problem if you lose it e.g a new pair of shows  Yup, so now one day you are walking and......oh no!!!!! You fall into quicksand! :amazed What do you do? You take off this new pair of shoes to slip out of the quick sand and escape!  YAY! Get it now? And I have contributed to this thread to a great and sensible degree...but there just seemed to be one person who seems to keep bringing back the same point even though over 10 persons have clearly have shown them that they are wrong about something...even though the facts they have presented are manga frikin facts. Im sure you can guess who that person is


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## sinjin long (Mar 14, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh really?
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



perhaps you should take off your uchiha colored glasses and UNDERSTAND the manga,before you post. any fool can read it. understanding it,not so much apparently.

i notice you posted a scan of "full" susanno,so im assuming that your claiming that "full" susanno is what is causing the bleeding. well then,IIRC sasuke did not use this against raikage,good sir. 

so what now? every version of susanno causes it? even tho every other instance of the partial form doesn't show it? or could it be,that is was due to damage raikage inflicted? or in the case of danzo fight, could it be from that fight? or could it be he was injured by raikage and his other skirmishes,and wasnt fully healed by karin and his scuffle with danzo re-aggravated that injury?

b/c incase you don't know first hand, that is EXACTLY what happens with internal injuries. for instance,your in an accident,your spitting up blood. the doctor clears you says take it easy for a little while. you decide to play some light ball,and lo and behold guess what??? you start spitting up blood again!!! 

amazing i know. taking into account the force of raikage's powerbomb and chop.adding to it the physical stress of mizu and the hit from hiramekarai(which was shaped like a hammer and knocked sauce thru a wall)
and the strain of those successive fights on sasuke and the relatively short time karin had to heal him. i find it highly more likely that it was all that then just susanno and susanno only.

hell,susanno may have even contributed to the above. but i understand,this doesn't support your slanted view of sasuke "dominating" the kage summit virtually un touched. so you turn off the old brain and let your passion for sasuke(as a fan,not as you love him or anything)color your evidence and twist static panels to support your theories.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> P.S
> A only lost 1/4 of his arm...he may replace with something in the future
> Anyway...wanna know how A wouldve defeated a amaterasu engulfed Susanoo Sasuke? Uhm....by OUTLASTING HIM? People act like Susanoo and Amaterasu are things that can be maintained indefinitely and would not falter at anytime....
> Newsflash! It pains like shit! It will weaken from time to time creating something called OPENINGS. Geez...



Okay then cut off 1/4 of your arm, and tell me does it make a difference.
Tell me if it's a big deal or not. As I said before Raikage may not have had any regrets about losing it, but to say he doesn't care is a lie. I would care about losing my pinky toe, yet alone "1/4" of my arm. 

I think you are missing my point jaknblak(as apparent as you didn't bother to read hardly anything I've posted). It's not that Raikage didn't have other options, it's that he didn't take the time to consider other options, and acted as if he didn't.

Sasuke didn't expect Raikage to attack the first time. But he damn well was intending to capitalize on it. 

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Thus is why he didn't try to dodge, thus is why he didn't try to utilize Susano stage 2. Sasuke felt no need, even after the previous exchange to utilize the bigger Susano. His later actions Forlong(this is specifically for you), wasn't out of stupidity, but out of analyzing the situation and adjusting accordingly.

You are right, jaknblak the battle of attrition was not in Sasuke's favor. Thus is why Sasuke was probably happy Raikage did go through with the attack, and instead of wasting chakara to build a bigger defense, he opt to use it to create something that would likely perform lesser defensively but gravely offensively.

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

The only manga cannon, certified fact is that Raikage would have been done if this attack went through along with his ninja career. 

The point I am trying to make is, that Sasuke was thinking in spite of his anger. Raikage wasn't.

It was not until Gara came along, and knocked some sense into Raikage did he start to think with a clear head.

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Notice he started utilizing his advantages to fight Sasuke. Rallying the team, 
and using the number advantage to go after Sasuke.

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Raikage was clearly no match for Sasuke alone. Thus is why Kishi had Sasuke battle the SUMMIT. Just like the battle was Pain vs. Konoha, before Pain vs. Naruto.


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## Icegaze (Mar 14, 2011)

Turrin speaks the truth, once again.

Case closed.


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## C-No (Mar 14, 2011)

I didn't care to read the whole long drawn out debate, but there is alotta of doubt in my mind, the fan of Sasuke, that he would've beaten Ei had he not been saved by Gaara. unless that amaterasu would've stopped the foot from going through his chest.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Raikage was clearly no match for Sasuke alone.


Raikage clearly was a match for Sasuke alone. Base Sasuke's strongest piercing attack did effectively nothing to Raikage Which means all Sasuke had in his arsenal that could even hurt Raikage was Amaterasu/Enton, Kirin, and maybe Susano'o's Sword. But Raikage dodged Amaterasu, which is Sasuke's fastest attack, which means Sasuke is incapable of landing any attack on Raikage. 

While on thee other hand Raikage is capable of blitzing Sasuke and easily landing his blows on him.

Sasuke's only defense against this was to simultaneously stack Mini-Susano'o and an Enton Flame Shield. Stacking two MS Techniques takes a-lot out of Sasuke, thus its unlikely he could have held such a combination for a very long time. Even if Sasuke used his Large Susano'o to defend, he still can't hold it very long. Raikage's defense on the other hand can be held for a very long time considering his Bijuu Chakra levels. 

Raikage clearly was a match for Sasuke alone, since he forced Sasuke to use so many MS Techniques and beat the shit out of Sasuke. Perhaps Raikage would have lost that fight, had things continued on their natural course, but Sasuke would be in horrible condition after having taken a direct leg drop to the chest [I.E. not in a condition to fight more Kages or Skilled Jonin]. Certainly the difference between them wasn't large enough to suggest Raikage was no match for Sasuke, in-fact Sasuke most likely heavily benefitted from Raikage's mind-set and other wise probably would not have won.


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## sinjin long (Mar 14, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Raikage clearly was a match for Sasuke alone. Base Sasuke's strongest piercing attack did effectively nothing to Raikage Which means all Sasuke had in his arsenal that could even hurt Raikage was Amaterasu/Enton, Kirin, and maybe Susano'o's Sword. But Raikage dodged Amaterasu, which is Sasuke's fastest attack, which means Sasuke is incapable of landing any attack on Raikage.
> 
> While on thee other hand Raikage is capable of blitzing Sasuke and easily landing his blows on him.
> 
> ...



^WTF???? LOGIC???? don't try to be bringin no logic up in here!!!

that is not what the panels of sasuke/raikage showed good sir!

its manga fact,sasuke dominated,raikage lost his hand,and sasuke was completely fine!!!!

in fact the only reason sasuke looked like he was in a battle at all was b/c he used susanno,good sir!

so if anything,sasuke>sasuke!!!!!


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> ^WTF???? LOGIC???? don't try to be bringin no logic up in here!!!
> 
> that is not what the panels of sasuke/raikage showed good sir!
> 
> ...


The thing is it doesn't even matter if Sasuke was damaged by Raikage's blows, Susano'o, or if one did more damage than thee other, since all that damage was caused by Raikage anyway, since Raikage was the one who forced Sasuke to use Susano'o to survive. 

So saying Susano'o did more damage would actually be worse for Sasuke, considering it would make it easier for Raikage to outlast him.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> perhaps you should take off your uchiha colored glasses and UNDERSTAND the manga,before you post. any fool can read it. understanding it,not so much apparently.


Yet you seem to come off as you don't do either.



> i notice you posted a scan of "full" susanno,so im assuming that your claiming that "full" susanno is what is causing the bleeding. well then,IIRC sasuke did not use this against raikage,good sir.


No I am saying that usage of Susano in general causes the affect, after a prolong usage. 

This has been shown. You look at the post, but do not comprehend the words. To read, is to comprehend not just regurgitate letter sounds that mimic words.

Sasuke didn't have a Full Susano until his battle with Kakashi and only briefly. 

Susano affects are apparent no matter the form, so for me to associate the side effect to one form or another is not logical. Again comprehend before you post. 



> so what now? every version of susanno causes it? even tho every other instance of the partial form doesn't show it? or could it be,that is was due to damage raikage inflicted? or in the case of danzo fight, could it be from that fight? or could it be he was injured by raikage and his other skirmishes,and wasnt fully healed by karin and his scuffle with danzo re-aggravated that injury?


Does every version of Susano cause pain?
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Nagato seemed to internally bleed from just using too much chakara.
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Sasuke bleeding could be do to a number of reasons.

And considering Raikage didn't attack any area, with major internal organs(usually what happens when internal bleeding occurs).

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

An attack in that area, would only likely lead to a busted lip, more so than internal bleeding.

But you have missed my point, as the cause of it is irrelevant to my point. The multiple scans was just to show, that internal bleeding is not that serious in this manga or any anime, much less a busted lip.

But it is irrelevant, as Raikage's blow was insignificant, the fact that Kishi sought to reward him with more opponents, without medical attention or help is proof of this.

Raikage received the worsen injury in that exchange of blows, and would likely receive the worsen injury in the second attempt to attack Sasuke Amaterasu shield.

Sasuke was obviously happy at the results, thus is why he tried the same trick twice, rather than expend the chakara for the bigger defense. 





> b/c incase you don't know first hand, that is EXACTLY what happens with internal injuries. for instance,your in an accident,your spitting up blood. the doctor clears you says take it easy for a little while. you decide to play some light ball,and lo and behold guess what??? you start spitting up blood again!!!


But Sasuke wasn't spitting up blood. Coughing it up or anything of that nature.

Sasuke continued to fight, short after. In fact he start5ed fighting even, before Raikage was finished treatment. Internal bleeding or not, it was irrelevant, as much as that blow. 



> amazing i know. taking into account the force of raikage's powerbomb and chop.adding to it the physical stress of mizu and the hit from hiramekarai(which was shaped like a hammer and knocked sauce thru a wall)
> and the strain of those successive fights on sasuke and the relatively short time karin had to heal him. i find it highly more likely that it was all that then just susanno and susanno only.


Using chakara/jutsu in general could cause internal bleeding. Once again Nagato attested to this. The Uchiha's believe it or not, have limits in their chakara. 

Sasuke used a large amount of chakara during the Raikage fight, and used some chakara prior to it as well.

Internal bleeding or not, Raikage causing it or not is irrelevant. Because the these factors are irrelevant. Did it force him to stop battling? Did he need to seek medical attention. It seems like people are trying to convince themselves Raikage's attack being worth it, whether than actually reading the manga. If I was a Raikage fan, I would be livid that the fact that Sasuke was still capable of fighting, despite Raikage sacrificing a limb to land the blow.

The idea is no different than Sasuke losing an eye in exchange for a punch, that produces no long term affects. 



> hell,susanno may have even contributed to the above. but i understand,this doesn't support your slanted view of sasuke "dominating" the kage summit virtually un touched. so you turn off the old brain and let your passion for sasuke(as a fan,not as you love him or anything)color your evidence and twist static panels to support your theories.


Sasuke dominated, because Raikage never got off an uncontested shot. Sasuke seem in control the entire time, especially if one takes into account the fact that he had a bigger Susano.

Much like Sasuke seemed in control vs. Deidara.

Sure Raikage momentarily gain the upper hand much like Deidara, but never do you get the sense that Sasuke is in mortal danger.

Raikage single blow in the fight came at the cost of his arm, and was irrelevant. 

The only the positive you could argue for the Raikage in that fight. Was the fact that Sasuke was forced to use so much, against what seems to be so little. Ironically this is in fact makes him worthy of the hype. This is exactly why his approach to battle presents match up problems against a number of individuals.

People who argue Raikage didn't lose, or was dominating are simply banking on the amount of effort administered and outright ignoring the injuries, or number of blows landed, or the cannon evidence of the Raikage coming out bad in that exchange.

As I said before this is because person he was against is Sasuke. Sasuke has too work twice as hard to receive the same type of acknowledgment from certain individuals.

Effort was never used to determined the winner of the Minato/Madara battle. As Minato certainly put in more effort than Madara.

Minato landed more blows, and manage to cause sever Madara's hand(no matter how irrelevant it is). Minato is considered almost unanimously the winner of that battle, is he not.

It seems to me, that people who dislike Sasuke would go out of their way, sometimes even ignoring common sense to discredit him.

Thus is why they come up with silly irrelevant barriers such as "Raikage took his own arm" despite the fight that it was Sasuke's jutsu.

Or Raikage would have only been injured; Sasuke dead "Which is outright a bias conclusion"

Or my favorite Bee planned to escape from Kumo, thus is why he got hit by Amatearsu(Despite him wanting to kill Sasuke earlier, despite him needing Sasuke's assistance to escape Amaterasu in the first place)

Does one have to work this hard to discredit a character? And most of the people who reiterate it, did not even come to that assumption themselves. They heard it from another individual who was obviously devoid of common sense, and adopted that belief without even considering if it is logical.


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## sinjin long (Mar 14, 2011)

did i ever mention any thing about KB wanting a vacation? or sasuke dieing and raikage limping?or who lost or won? minato and madara?nagato?sasuke vs deidara?

no try to stay on topic instead of going all over the place in an effort to veer the subject off course.

did it ever say anywhere that susanno usage causes internal bleeding?

could itachis internal bleeding be due to his disease and the battle vs just susanno usage?

could sasuke's internal bleeding be due to being slammed into the ground with enough force to create a fairly sized crater and not just susanno usage?

does pain = bleeding?

oh and BTW sasuke took raikage chop in the neck area not his lip. this is clearly shown in the manga.

my argument isn't who won or lost,its with the assumption that sasuke took no damage vs raikage,as you clearly believe. for you it was all susanno,even tho all of your examples can be equally disproven by other causes.you just will not admit it is even a possibility. B/c then your beliefs and arguments on the matter would be proven incorrect. 

that is why this one detail is completely relevant.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Raikage clearly was a match for Sasuke alone. Base Sasuke's strongest piercing attack did effectively nothing to Raikage Which means all Sasuke had in his arsenal that could even hurt Raikage was Amaterasu/Enton, Kirin, and maybe Susano'o's Sword. But Raikage dodged Amaterasu, which is Sasuke's fastest attack, which means Sasuke is incapable of landing any attack on Raikage.


That is not what Kishi depicted. I don't even care about battle dome logic, as I am not even using it.

Notice Raikage in his clear mind set, was rallying the team to go after Sasuke.
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Add to the fact that Sasuke was holding back, and this becomes further evident.  

The fact that Kishi brought others ninjas into the equations, the fact that Kishi rewarded Raikage's effort with a medic, and Sasuke with more opponents is what I am using to conclude this.

But I do admit Turrin I embellished a little and need to correct myself. In that fight, Raikage was clearly inferior. In that fight, Sasuke was clearly getting the better of the Raikage. 





> While on thee other hand Raikage is capable of blitzing Sasuke and easily landing his blows on him.


Raikage manage to land a blow on him, but it wasn't easy as it came at a cost.

Sasuke could not keep up with Raikage at certain points you are absolutely right, but he adjusted and gained the advantage in battle anyway. Sasuke was using his noggin(despite his anger), Raikage was not and their fight showed it.

If you are going to acknowledge Turrin Raikage blow, please acknowledge Sasuke's Turrin. Double standards please people.





> Sasuke's only defense against this was to simultaneously stack Mini-Susano'o and an Enton Flame Shield. Stacking two MS Techniques takes a-lot out of Sasuke, thus its unlikely he could have held such a combination for a very long time. Even if Sasuke used his Large Susano'o to defend, he still can't hold it very long. Raikage's defense on the other hand can be held for a very long time considering his Bijuu Chakra levels.


But boy was it effective was it not? 

As I told the other poster, the battle of attrition was not the case of this fight.And the large Susano wasn't necessary, and wasn't utilized.

We are arguing THAT FIGHT, not future fights Turrin, so please do not use battle dome logic.

In that fight Sasuke was able to cope better, as he was more versatile, opposed to Raikage. In that fight. No doubt Turrin, I agree with what you are trying to imply, and Raikage theoretically should be able to compete with that Sasuke.

However THAT fight was not close. 





> Raikage clearly *is* a match for Sasuke alone, since he forced Sasuke to use so many MS Techniques and beat the shit out of Sasuke. Perhaps Raikage would have lost that fight, had things continued on their natural course, but *Sasuke would be in horrible condition after having taken a direct leg drop to the chest [I.E. not in a condition to fight more Kages or Skilled Jonin].* Certainly the difference between them wasn't large enough to suggest Raikage was no match for Sasuke, in-fact Sasuke most likely heavily benefitted from Raikage's mind-set and other wise probably would not have won.


Corrected with IS.

That fight was not even close. Raikage was letting his anger cloud his judgment, and was not thinking with a clear head. 

Sasuke uses MS techniques on fodder, and in situation where he may not need it. Trying to judge a fight on effort is unfair, as I reiterated in my last post. No. one has their fight judged on effort. The fact that this is all the Raikage has, as he did not give Sasuke any relevant injuries(in comparison), nor did he land any attack other than the one that came at the cost of his arm.

When did he beat the shit out of Sasuke? 
When did he actually manage to touch Sasuke, outside of the blow that again came at the cost of his arm?

That is a comment, out of fustration, as I doubt even you yourself believe that. Was Raikage's attack any more affected than Sasuke's chidori? 

Both drew blood, and Sasuke did fly back, but again what was the long term affects? Was Sasuke even noted to be injured by the injury, or did are bias for a character or against a character cloud are judgement?

Turrin, turrin, turrin, turrin.
How did you come to the conclusion in bold? What evidence did you use to assess that? Is it sheer common sense? No it can't be. As common sense would require something other than ass pull as evidence, to make such an assumption. Is it correlation? Can't be as that doesn't agree with you either.

Look at the statistics I posted in another post.

Raikage's success rate of breaking through Susano 50%

Considering Sasuke was forming SPIKED ENTON(that may have or may not have change properities) that percentage would only go done.

Sasuke's success rate of being seriously injured- ZERO.
Raikage's previous attack neither produced a injury that affected Sasuke in the short term, much less long terms. Nor was it any signs of hindrance from the attack. 

Sasuke had bigger Susano, if need be, but he didn't feel the need to utilize it. This should tell you well how confident Sasuke was in his ability to tank Raikage's next attack. Sasuke has shown to be very good in making adjustments to situations. If he felt that current Susano was not strong enough he would have placed a bigger one.

Raikage success rate of being seriously injured by Susano-100%.

So you cannot be using statistics to argue your point.

Manga per say? 
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Nope the only confirmed person to be injured in that exchange is Raikage.

So your assessment in bold could only logically have come from ass pull. 

But you are absolutely right, about befitting from Raikage's mind set. Raikage made the battle a war of jutsu, than one of attrition. Raikage made the battle end quicker, allowing Sasuke to conserve more chakara for the Danzo the rest of the Kage's.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> did i ever mention any thing about KB wanting a vacation? or sasuke dieing and raikage limping?or who lost or won? minato and madara?nagato?sasuke vs deidara?


Never implied you did, and you seem to not know me well at all. I don't make threads, thus I tend to pour my thoughts in one post. I have long sense responded to your point, thus I have rambled on into a totally different subject, although the trend is related to this.

I am simply using those as examples to show case how the bars for judgment alters and twist when discussing Sasuke. How certain individuals seems to go out of their way to discredit him. 



> no try to stay on topic instead of going all over the place in an effort to veer the subject off course.


I am on topic, as I have essentially dealt with your point. I am simply posting a knew idea, without breaking off the response. I always do this, thus is why post are often REALLY LOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGG.

I love how you ignored half of my post, and dropped points all together that disproved with your previous ideas. 



> did it ever say anywhere that susanno usage causes internal bleeding?


There is a correlation, between it's usage and internal bleeding good sir.

There is a pattern between coughing up blood, and using Susano.

Now the true question is where does it state anywhere that Sasuke was internally bleeding? 

He certainly wasn't coughing up blood. Is bleeding from the mouth sufficient evidence to support internal bleeding? Now this is the million dollar question.



> could itachis internal bleeding be due to his disease and the battle vs just susanno usage?


No it could very well be, however correlation shows that Susano usage could cause similar side effects. Along with too much chakara being used.



> could sasuke's internal bleeding be due to being slammed into the ground with enough force to create a fairly sized crater and not just susanno usage?


Susano prevented the impact from ever reaching Sasuke. And if such was the case.

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Surely this caused more impact that any than the later. And look.
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

No internal bleeding.



> does pain = bleeding?
> 
> oh and BTW sasuke took raikage chop in the neck area not his lip. this is clearly shown in the manga.


No major internal bleeding in the kneck, so my point still suffice. 



Read the wikipedia entry on internal bleeding. (and don't give me you are quoting wiki, because I'm sure A. the person posting the info has more knowledge on the shit than you, and B. I'm sure they used sources to support their argument)



> my argument isn't who won or lost,its with the assumption that sasuke took no damage vs raikage,as you clearly believe. for you it was all susanno,even tho all of your examples can be equally disproven by other causes.you just will not admit it is even a possibility. B/c then your beliefs and arguments on the matter would be proven incorrect.


He took zero damage that was relevant. Just like Sasuke manage to injure the Raikage with a chidori, but it did not hinder Raikage. Raikage manage to successfully hit Sasuke, but it was irrelevant. 

How does one disregard Sasuke's chidori, but fap to Raikage's blow? Apart from knockback, didn't they have the same effect?

Hell Killerbee was hit, multiple times by Taka but the only time it truly counted was Amaterasu. My position 

For me whether it was all Susano is irrelevant, as Turrin said it doesn't matter Raikage forced him to use it so it is irrelevant. 
My issue was what did it do? Did it hinder Sasuke ability to get up and fight at all? 

I think this is the case, of the attack looking more painful than it actually was. Internal bleeding, is all fanfiction and spin on things to make you and others feel better. 

I frankly if it was internal bleeding, external bleeding, bleeding of the ear, heart, etc. etc. it doesn't matter. All that matters is that it was it wasn't serious in comparison to what the Raikage received. 

Sasuke realized this, thus is why he tried the same trick twice. He must have been a good trade off. 

that is why this one detail is completely relevant.[/QUOTE]


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## Skywalker (Mar 14, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Raikage was clearly no match for Sasuke alone. Thus is why Kishi had Sasuke battle the SUMMIT. Just like the battle was Pain vs. Konoha, before Pain vs. Naruto.




A was raping him, Sasuke couldn't do anything to protect himself besides spam MS.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That is not what Kishi depicted. I don't even care about battle dome logic, as I am not even using it.


What do you mean its not what Kishi depicted? Did Raikage not easily tank Chidori? Did Raikage not dodge Sasuke fastest attack? 



> Notice Raikage in his clear mind set, was rallying the team to go after Sasuke.
> http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/


Who says Raikage was in his clear mind? Besides that I don't even really see what your point is here. 



> Add to the fact that Sasuke was holding back, and this becomes further evident.


What makes you say Sasuke was holding back? 



> The fact that Kishi brought others ninjas into the equations, the fact that Kishi rewarded Raikage's effort with a medic, and Sasuke with more opponents is what I am using to conclude this.


Other Ninja were always in the equation, its just that Sasuke's team got decimated, while Raikage's remained in fighting condition. The whole thing was a team battle right from the jump.



> Raikage manage to land a blow on him, but it wasn't easy as it came at a cost


It was very easy for Raikage to land a blow on Sasuke. Landing the blow cost Raikage, but that has nothing to do with how easy it was to actually hit Sasuke with his attack.



> Sasuke could not keep up with Raikage at certain points you are absolutely right, but he adjusted and gained the advantage in battle anyway. Sasuke was using his noggin(despite his anger), Raikage was not and their fight showed it.


I fully acknowledge Sasuke's blow on the Raikage, however I don't see how that shows Raikage couldn't match Sasuke in that battle.



> However THAT fight was not close.


How was that fight not close? Had Gaara not stop the final blow from Raikage, what condition do you think Sasuke would be in after being hit by a leg drop.  



> Sasuke uses MS techniques on fodder, and in situation where he may not need it. Trying to judge a fight on effort is unfair, as I reiterated in my last post. No. one has their fight judged on effort. The fact that this is all the Raikage has, as he did not give Sasuke any relevant injuries(in comparison), nor did he land any attack other than the one that came at the cost of his arm.


Effort doesn't matter if were just talking about the victor of the match, however effort does matter when your making statements like "that fight was not close at all".



> When did he beat the shit out of Sasuke?
> When did he actually manage to touch Sasuke, outside of the blow that again came at the cost of his arm?


When he Smashed him into the Ground and Karate Chopped his neck. Also the very fact that he forced Sasuke to us MS, means that he was causing Sasuke to damage himself.



> That is a comment, out of fustration, as I doubt even you yourself believe that. Was Raikage's attack any more affected than Sasuke's chidori?


It was way more effective. Chidori caused a minor flesh wound. Raikage's Karate Chop caused Sasuke's neck to twist around, him to cough up blood, and land on his ass. 



> How did you come to the conclusion in bold? What evidence did you use to assess that? Is it sheer common sense? No it can't be. As common sense would require something other than ass pull as evidence, to make such an assumption. Is it correlation? Can't be as that doesn't agree with you either.


Sasuke was already exhausted and damaged from his fight with Raikage, when Gaara stopped the leg drop, had it been successful, Sasuke would have been even more damaged. Do you honestly think he would be able to effectively take on the Kages or their guards after that? Hell he couldn't effectively take them on even w/o being hit by the leg drop he was so exhausted/damaged.



> Look at the statistics I posted in another post.


Listen I'm not arguing its impossible that Sasuke could tank Raikage's next attack and survive, what i'm arguing is that Sasuke would be in bad condition after being hit by an Amaterasu Coated Leg Drop. 



> Nope the only confirmed person to be injured in that exchange is Raikage.


Sasuke was also injured in that exchange. Using Amaterasu/Enton damages Sasuke's eyes, using Susano'o damages his eyes and body, and he got hit by a very powerful Karate chop to the neck [see the blood coming from Sasuke's eyes and mouth].

Now you could argue Raikage was more damage, but to say Sasuke wasn't damage at all is just silly.



> But you are absolutely right, about befitting from Raikage's mind set. Raikage made the battle a war of jutsu, than one of attrition. Raikage made the battle end quicker, allowing Sasuke to conserve more chakara for the Danzo the rest of the Kage's.


Glade we agree on that


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> A was raping him, Sasuke couldn't do anything to protect himself besides spam MS.





Just like Itachi

Just like Nagato/Pein

Just like Naruto

Lol MS,Genjutsu,Rinnegan abiliteis, they are all the same. 


I don't know whether your post was a poor attempt to mock me, or a poor attempt at sarcasm. 

Either way it fails.

And raping someone would imply one making contact. Considering Raikage only landed one contested shot, I assume you are just trolling.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 14, 2011)

I just realized. Doesnt using Susanoo hurt the user? So in technicality Sasuke was forced to hurt himself just to survive. So in simpler terms..........A hurted Sasuke? *gasp* ...I own


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## ? (Mar 14, 2011)

In regards to the Sasuke vs. Ei fight...


I think it was made pretty clear that Sasuke had the upperhand in that confrontation. Everything Raikage did to Sasuke barely did anything. His Liger Bomb was ineffective because of Susanoo, and his forearm strike to Sasuke didn't do anything because of Susanoo. So based on Sasuke surviving the previous assaults what makes people so sure Ei's leg drop would do much? On the other hand, when Sasuke's black flames touched Ei, it caused him a limb. What do you think would happen if he took a direct hit from the Kagatsuchi that was about to hit him? Gaaras comment makes it seem as though Ei would have been seriously hurt, while not implying Sasuke would be hurt. Killer Bee also said Sasuke was his strongest opponent, and guess what; Killer Bee fought Ei. So IMO, Sasuke would have won the fight.

As far as Raikage being overrated: I completely agree. I think he is one of the most overrated characters on the forums.


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 14, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI  said:
			
		

> That would be the other guy, in which half of his post consist of shit unrelated to the discussion.



That would be you  as well good sir because i was responding to parts of your posts that were off topic, but then again you already know that and simply try to save face. 

*Anyway on to the discussion:
*


*1.* I love how you use the fact that Sascake was able to continue fighting like he didn't have any serious injury as evidence that he didn't but the same does not apply to A?And you have the nerve to call on others hypocrisy?

*A was perfectly fine *and would've been perfectly fine taking on Sascake.



*2.* Using the fact that Sascake didn't receive medical help while at the same time A did?OH.MY.GOD. Gaara, A and co would just sit back and tell Sascake and Karin to take their time, right?

And considering what happened like a minute later, Sascake damn sure could've used Karin.A on the other hand () would not fall on his knees, crying like a pussy about how much pain he is in.



*3.* I love how you are as desperate as to tell one guy "Cut your arm off right now, and judge if it's a big deal. "   

In real life you can't cut your hand with your other hand and be perfectly fine right after with only needing to stop the bleeding.That's how A felt about loosing his arm:

He was apparently stabbed by a sword directly through the chest, yet still managed to get up

A-"HMPH"

For A it was simply nothing more than an annoyance.



*4.* I love how you are always crying about how the manga doesn't suggest this, doesn't suggest that.. NEWSFLASH the manga is nowhere suggesting that A gave a crap about his arm.It suggests the exact opposite but nowhere does it support your claim.

In a manga where you can turn your whole body into a puppet and let go of all your organs except the heart, you can't replace an arm?Yeah sure.. the only explanation is that A simply *DOES NOT GIVE A CRAP!*




*5. * I love how when i give an example you say it's not under the same condition and yet you give "Minato-Faildara"? 

-A didn't run away almost right after he was caught in Amaterasu but continued attacking and was gonna finish Sascake.

-A didn't completely abandon the fight after the fact and still chased  Sascake.*IT DOES NOT MATTER IF A HAD HIS FRIENDS WITH HIM!HE ALSO HAD THEM WHEN HE WAS HIDING BEHIND THE PILLAR, GENIUS!
*
-Faildara can't do shit to Minato, A can outlast Susano.


But if you are stupid enough to use the logic that is applied there to better suit your argument.. Remember how Sascake run away from Gaara and co?


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## Skywalker (Mar 14, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Just like Itachi
> 
> Just like Nagato/Pein
> 
> ...


Oh you caught me, I'm totally trolling. 

Look, hop off Sasuke's cock why don't you? If he was as good as you said, he could've done more then simply jump right to Susano'o when things got tough and sit in it gloating, even so, A still could've killed him.


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## Ejenku (Mar 14, 2011)

I agree he is overrated but he does have some of the best speed feats though.


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## Hiroshi (Mar 14, 2011)

Keep it cool guys, and don't get too much into Battledome territory. (i.e. Sasuke v. Raikage)


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## sadino (Mar 14, 2011)

I think some people here just found a new religion.Sasukeism or whatever.


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## Dashido (Mar 14, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> A was raping him, Sasuke couldn't do anything to protect himself besides spam MS.



This. Is what trolls, uchihatards, sacue fans and raikage haters seem to ignore. Sasuke had no options or say in the flow of the battle he was getting wtfpawned so hard all he could do is find new ways to keep himself alive.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

Turrin said:


> What do you mean its not what Kishi depicted? Did Raikage not easily tank Chidori? Did Raikage not dodge Sasuke fastest attack?


Did Sasuke not just as easily tank Raikage's attack? Raikages attack apart from knocking Sasuke back was just as ineffective. 

Both attacks drew blood, so please do not try to distinguish this. 

Sasuke went on to battle other opponents. Raikage not only had to be saved, but had to recieve medical attention, while Sasuke had to go and handle other business. 

ALL WHILE HOLDING BACK. 




> Who says Raikage was in his clear mind? Besides that I don't even really see what your point is here.


He wasn't charging in head first, and was clearly thinking before acting. He recognized he didn't need to go on his own. 

Raikage actions were clearly more thought out than, prior showings. As he was willing to rely on his team to to kill Sasuke, rather than trying to perform a solo act.





> What makes you say Sasuke was holding back?


http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

What is this Turrin? 




> Other Ninja were always in the equation, its just that Sasuke's team got decimated, while Raikage's remained in fighting condition. The whole thing was a team battle right from the jump.


No before it was a fair fight fight. Sasuke in Taka, vs. Raikage vs. his guards..

Raikage's was no longer fighting with his team, good sir. Clearly Gara, Konkuro, Temari, Mei, Mifune, Choujuro, were not part of Raikage's team.

Please do not play dumb Turrin, as I shouldn't have to teach someone who your experience with the manga, the manga. 




> It was very easy for Raikage to land a blow on Sasuke. Landing the blow cost Raikage, but that has nothing to do with how easy it was to actually hit Sasuke with his attack.


It has everything to do with it. 




> I fully acknowledge Sasuke's blow on the Raikage, however I don't see how that shows Raikage couldn't match Sasuke in that battle.


Was the trade off worth Turrin? 

Did both fighters suffer equal consequence in that exchange? Did both fighters suffer equal consequences long term? Did both fighters receive an equal amount of landed blows? Was both fighters noted to have died in that last exchange?

Every measure you can judge the fight by, falls into Sasuke's favor. Kishi didn't give Raikage anything in this battle, not even a clean hit. 




> How was that fight not close? Had Gaara not stop the final blow from Raikage, what condition do you think Sasuke would be in after being hit by a leg drop.


Because nothing falls into Raikage's favor as I mentioned before. Even the final comment only denotes Raikage being injured. 

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

It's not what about what condition Sasuke would be in, as that is speculation. USING CORRELATION, I could easily argue Sasuke not being seriously injured in that exchange, but as I said before it is still speculation. However what's confirmed Turrin? What's confirmed by both correlation and Manga cannon?

Raikage not fairing to well in that exchange that is what. 




> Effort doesn't matter if were just talking about the victor of the match, however effort does matter when your making statements like "that fight was not close at all".


It was not. Sasuke administer half of his chakara and would have killed the Raikage. 

It was not, considering how Kishi depicted Raikage. It was not considering Raikage didn't hit Sasuke roughly once prior to losing his arm, and Sasuke went on to give an encore presentation. 




> When he Smashed him into the Ground and Karate Chopped his neck. Also the very fact that he forced Sasuke to us MS, means that he was causing Sasuke to damage himself.


Which amounted to what exactly Turrin? Sasuke being forced to use MS means nothing. Sasuke is battling a Kage. 

So did with this fodder.
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

You seem to spewing shit that is irrelevant, and avoiding the main question in all this what did it do? 

The chop, being sent to the ground what did it do? Using the MS, AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT, what did it do. 

With your logic a fodder army forced Minato to use Harashin. 




> It was way more effective. Chidori caused a minor flesh wound. Raikage's Karate Chop caused Sasuke's neck to twist around, him to cough up blood, and land on his ass.


That is anesthetics, that is a petty argument. 
And Chidori produces blood as well.

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

What is that on Raikage's chess. 






> Sasuke was already exhausted and damaged from his fight with Raikage, when Gaara stopped the leg drop, had it been successful, Sasuke would have been even more damaged. Do you honestly think he would be able to effectively take on the Kages or their guards after that? Hell he couldn't effectively take them on even w/o being hit by the leg drop he was so exhausted/damaged.


Being exhausted does not equal a drop in inefficiency in Susano, or in Sasuke's jutsu.

You have no assessment to make that statement. Nothing to use to support that argument. Essentially ass pulling, something I will no longer tolerate. 

Yes I fucking honestly do. Why would ask such a stupid question? Correlation supports him being able to either.

A. Stop the attack completely Raikage only has a 50% success rate.

B. Get up and continue fighting, in which Sasuke has a 100% success rate.

call me a tard all you want to, but at at least I am pointing to something that clearly makes sense. 

Your shit is entirely ass pulled. Nothing in the manga supports your assumption. Correlation, doesn't support your shit neither. You are essentially arguing he would have broken through, because I want him too. 




> Listen I'm not arguing its impossible that Sasuke could tank Raikage's next attack and survive, what i'm arguing is that Sasuke would be in bad condition after being hit by an Amaterasu Coated Leg Drop.


And what I am arguing is that you have nothing to fall back on to support your claim.

The previous TWO trial runs had Sasuke either completely mitigate the attack, or mitigated so much that it becomes ineffective. The fact that Sasuke had a bigger Susano to call upon, but didn't deem it necessary is more evidence. 

Either way you look, anyway you look at it using the manga stand point, the fact is SASUKE'S fate cannot be determined. And if you want to try to predict it, you must take into account the previous exchanges in which Sasuke came out A OK. 

This is not rocket science people, nor is it bias. It is common sense. I am telling exactly what I am using to derive my assumption. I am telling you why Sasuke dominated THAT battle. 

Never once have I seen individuals bring up so many points to try to discredit what transpired. Effort has never played a role in any of the fights, neither has a person been given leeway in a battle that was visually, and concluded in on a one sided outcome.






> Sasuke was also injured in that exchange. Using Amaterasu/Enton damages Sasuke's eyes, using Susano'o damages his eyes and body, and he got hit by a very powerful Karate chop to the neck [see the blood coming from Sasuke's eyes and mouth].


Blood from his eyes does not mean squat. That is aesthetically the signature of Amaterasu. Kishi has never noted it be a hindrance in ones health. Seriously Turrin are you this desperate. It sounds like you are reaching for something and trying to grasp anything you can get your hands on.

Sasuke was bleeding from the mouth, which may as well be equivalent to simply anesthetic as it did not produce any long or short term hindrances. 

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Sasuke drew blood first, yet that hit is not counted or recognized by most as it was irrelevant. Raikage's hit is equally as irrelevant, the only reason why people consider it, is it is the only blow Raikage has no matter how futile it was. The only reason people consider it, is only because it was against Sasuke.

Susano damages his body but many have forced him to use Susano. Sasuke doesn't care about that. Sasuke doesn't seem to be be suffering because of it, or at least enough to stop him from spamming it. Where does the slippery slope stop Turrin? She we start counting chakara exertion now as well?

You are trying to invent reasons to judge the fight differently from the others, because you know judging it like the others = Sasuke domination.

Injuries Sasuke wins

Number of hits Sasuke wins

Final exchange results- Sasuke - unclear(correlation in his favor to survive with no serious injury) Raikage-(Confirmed to be seriously injured by manga cannon and correlation) thus winner Sasuke.

Who needed medical attention first? Raikage

Who was rewarded with back up? Raikage

Who was rewarded with additional opposition?Sasuke

Who still has all the limbs attached to their bodies? Sasuke





> Now you could argue Raikage was more damage, but to say Sasuke wasn't damage at all is just silly.


He wasn't any more damaged by that attack than Raikage here
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Bee here
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Naruto here
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

I could go on but I think you get my point.

Damage that is irrelevant = irrelevant in discussion WITH THE EXCEPTION of Sasuke apparently.

Raikage did no serious injury, Sasuke did. Sasuke was noted to be harmed in the final exchange, Raikage was. 

Sasuke went on to have several serious battles, Raikage didn't. 




Glade we agree on that [/QUOTE]


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## Skywalker (Mar 14, 2011)

Dashido said:


> This. Is what trolls, uchihatards, sacue fans and raikage haters seem to ignore. Sasuke had no options or say in the flow of the battle he was getting wtfpawned so hard all he could do is find new ways to keep himself alive.


Exactly, thank you for understanding.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 14, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> Oh you caught me, I'm totally trolling.
> 
> Look, hop off Sasuke's cock why don't you? If he was as good as you said, he could've done more then simply jump right to Susano'o when things got tough and sit in it gloating, even so, A still could've killed him.



He is as good as I said. If he wasn't so good, would people go this far to downplay him or his feats? They do not want to argue wants on panel, they don't to use the typical way we judge a fight, they want argue the arbitrary.

Why do people even bring hiding behind Susano into the discussion. Wasn't Raikage hiding behind his shroud? Sasuke would have made short WORK, of Raikage in without his shroud.

Why is Sasuke's action so criticized, as I seen people claim he was being dominated because he resort to such a tactic.

How long did Sasuke actually hide behind Susano? Do people know how long the battle lasted in actuality? Between Sasuke and Raikage not much over a chapter. 

Sasuke used Susano to block Raikages power bomb just like, Raikage used his shroud to guard against Sasuke's chidori variants. 

Sasuke couldn't match Raikage in speed TOWARDS THE END OF THE FIGHT. So he came up with a viable tactic all together to at least keep Raikage from attacking. It's not Sasuke's fault Raikage is an idiot. 

It's like they criticize Sasuke for making the right call. Do we criticize anyone else for come up with a viable strategy to cope with an opponent. 

It was the  same situation with the end of the Diedara fight, back then they could blame it on PNJ. This time they just criticize Sasuke for thinking smart.


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## kisame123 (Mar 15, 2011)




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## silenceofthelambs (Mar 15, 2011)

What I found especially funny in the shitstorm fight between the Raikage and Sasuke is the Sauce's counter to A's lethal leg drop. He does realize that putting Amaterasu in front of his facial features to stop the attack would only bring A's Amaterasu-coated leg down on his face in epic fury, thereby burning and smashing it in at the same time?


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> What I found especially funny in the shitstorm fight between the Raikage and Sasuke is the Sauce's counter to A's lethal leg drop. He does realize that putting Amaterasu in front of his facial features to stop the attack would only bring A's Amaterasu-coated leg down on his face in epic fury, thereby burning and smashing it in at the same time?



You are right, damn even i always forget about that.. have some rep love


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## Forlong (Mar 15, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Listening to advice of others, is big part of why he is currently the man he is today. Itachi: "You lack hatred"..................
> 
> Well Itachi, I think Sasuke has you beat in that department now.


Yeah, he did take that advice.  So I wasn't technically correct.



> Just like any situation in which a deterrent is used. Police use guns/tazers etc. etc. with the same intent. It is a deterrent but the outcomes are the same.
> 
> A. You surrender peacefully and allow us to apprehend you
> 
> B. You do something stupid and get shot the fuck up


Yeah, while police hope for suspects to take "Option A", they prepare for them to take "Option B".  They have to be ready for that sort of thing.  Sasuke is a ninja, he should plan for a _ninja_ to pull unbelievable stunts.



> However the fact that he did, the secondary function kicked in. Thus anyway you slice it, Sasuke is responsible for A losing a hand. Durai seems to believe Sasuke is responsible certainly.
> 
> Onoki's implied statement that if he were at full power, he could have soloed the Five Kage summit with what looks like medium difficulty


Funny, the link you posted has Durai claiming it was _his_ fault.  Maybe you should read the pages before using them to back up your argument.  Just in case they don't.



> What does this have to do with my point. Konkuro? How is he involved in this. Huh typical avoiding a point by changing the subject.


That still wasn't simple enough for you!?

Kakuro could _make_ A a puppet arm to replace the one he lost.  Did...you...get...that!?  Okay, A has NOT pursued a replacement for his right arm, yet he's still sure that he could take on two Jinchuriki at the same time.  This doesn't make the loss of his arm seem like a severe handicap.



> What this doesn't even make sense. Losing a limb would be major to anyone, why would it not. Of course Raikage isn't crying over spilled milk. However to say it doesn't affect him is silly. Use common sense people. Would losing an arm affect you? If your answer is yes, than please sees this silly argument.


Exhibit A: Zabuza
Exhibit B: Zaku
Exhibit C: Orochimaru
Exhibit D: Deidara
Exhibit E: Chioyo
Exhibit F: Kakuzu
Exhibit G: Jiraiya
Exhibit H: Madara (twice in fact)
Exhibit I: Danzo

Everyone and his mother has lost an arm and not one of them even flinched.  What happens when a character is blinded in some way?  Oh yeah, frickin' Sakura is able to sneak on them.  Gotta say, sacrificing an arm isn't as foolhardy as sacrificing eyes.



> Didn't we go over this before.
> 
> Susano forces internal bleeding.
> Onoki's implied statement that if he were at full power, he could have soloed the Five Kage summit with what looks like medium difficulty
> ...


Ah, might not have quite been what I thought.  But Sasuke was still knocked to the ground by A's strike.  It had to be enough to knock him over, which made him vulnerable to another attack.  Yes, it is likely A's hit didn't damage him as much as I thought, but it was hardly superficial.



> You are positive that the blood to the brain kept him from thinking straight? How did you figure this?


It's called a stroke.



> Why would he roll out the way of the attack? He like the previous result, why not end shit right then and there. After all he had bigger fish to fry.


It would have ended with a flaming hole in his chest making that a dumb idea.  Considering A broke through his armor before, it would make the most sense not to risk another connection.



> Why rolled out of the way, he had a bigger Susano if need be.


Took him a few minutes before he was able to do that.  It might be that his body hadn't adapted yet.  We don't know, but we sure know that Sasuke couldn't bring it up at will.  Madara made that quite clear.  So Sasuke had no idea how to activate Sage 2.  Which would make depending on it then stupid.



> How do you make the assumption of him not being able to stand up?


Him _not_ standing up was a clue.  This is Sasuke we're talking about.  He wouldn't want to be on his knees before anyone.  He would see that as demeaning.

I also love how A telling Shi to stop the bleeding _he_ caused is a sign he was in a weakened state, but Sasuke staying _on the floor_ isn't.  Yeah, that's totally not bias.




> Sasuke has done this a number of times now.


Only when he has to.  Which proves that he has to push his limits more than anyone else.  I mean, you can't argue A was having trouble standing up or keeping up with Sasuke.  Sasuke had the shit knocked out of him and A looked like he was just warming up.



> Raikage's attack didn't hit his lower body, thus their was no logical reason to suggest he shouldn't be able to stand up.


But a stroke or every cell in your body burning with pain could do that.



> And considering internal bleeding is obviously not a serious injury in the Naruto verse or any anime for that much, you are essentially arguing a mute point. Sasuke was still able to keep fighting, while the Raikage could not. Sasuke is not being affected by the Raikage's blow, while Raikage is.


Losing your frickin' arm isn't a severe injury in this manga either, but I don't see you saying that.



> The gaps in susano is irrelevant. The Aura protects the wielder just as well as the bones.
> 
> Thus is why mist attack didn't harm Sasuke.
> Onoki's implied statement that if he were at full power, he could have soloed the Five Kage summit with what looks like medium difficulty
> ...


Sorry, but if you _looked_ at the pages you linked, you would have seen that Sasuke was trying to activate Stage 2, but it was melting before it could form completely.  Also, the _solid_ parts of the Susano'o sure didn't stop A.



> Sasuke also may have been relying on Kasugutchi to stop him, as he performed spikes to catch him in mid air.


Fire isn't solid, thus couldn't do that.  There is a certain logic to this manga.  Fire jutsu has never shown signs of solidity, so it makes very little sense to assume that one jutsu would be that way.  Unless you have definitive proof that it could have done anything to actually protect Sasuke, your argument is largely pointless.



> Or a solid object could potentially stop a target from falling period or at least hinder the momentum. Much like falling from the sky on to a pole or power line. All the momentum gather would be either all precipitate or at least be mitigated. Sasuke was forming spikes for a reason, I doubt it was simply to set on Fire before reaching him.


Problem: Fire is a chemical reaction.  Not a solid object.  At least when wind jutsus cut, they're dealing with actual matter.



> Ah but will he make it to his chest that is the problem? If he does would it be enough to kill Sasuke or at least keep him from fighting?


Even if Sasuke managed to keep from getting his chest crushed, it would still be on fire.  And A would still be on top of him and be able to hit more blows that would be near impossible to dodge.



> Sasuke has a 100% in not only surviving Raikage's attack but being in the state to continue fighting.


Raikage has a 100% in surviving Sasuke attacks without slowing down.  So I don't see the advantage.



> So how does one deduce Raikage killing Sasuke, if the correlation falls in Sasuke's favor? How does one deduce Raikage killing Sasuke if the attacked was not stop by Gara, without a manga sentence to support it.


3rd Law of Physics: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

If A would have been hurt, logic dictates that Sasuke would be as well.  The problem is that Sasuke's chest would take the blow, while A would feel it in just his foot.



> The only FACTS. (You know what can be proven)


Said the man that thinks fire is a solid. 



> Isn't this how Minato is considered winner against Madara.


No.  It's because Madara retreated.  Now what is the logical reason to retreat?  The risks outweigh the gain.  That heavily implies that Madara could have lost.



> Isn't this how you traditional school/local fights are settled? Rarely do they ever conclude, in most cases they are broken up. However the number of attacks, and injuries suffered determines the winner.


What are you?  Frickin' six!  That's not how it works.  Remember what Sasuke said about the fight he had with Naruto that Kakashi interrupted?  Did he say "I won because I landed more blows"?  NO!  He said it was interrupted.  That's what real martial artists do.  If two are in a fight and it's interrupted, the result is considered inconclusive.



> Sasuke is the winner of this fight under those condition. The fact that A needed medical attention and Sasuke was rewarded with additional fights by Kishi should imply who the winner was.


But under the conventions of reality, the fight itself was interrupted.  A only needed medical attention from chopping his own arm off.  He could have gone without it while ripping Sasuke's head off.

Also, did you tell Gaara that he beat Deidara?  Because Deidara had one less arm after that fight!



> The fact that multiple Kage's + body guards had to step in, should decide who the winner was. The fact that amiss all that Sasuke was holding back should determine who the winner was.


Sasuke would have died five times, if not for Jugo, Sugetsu, Zetsu, Madara, and Karin.  Exactly zero of the Kages even came close to dying.  Maybe A, but that's the only one that even came close.  Please, Sasuke was nothing but raped.



> Kishi was depicting Sasuke as above any individual shinobi at the summit. Thus is why he had to fight a series of them. Pain was given that same treatment when he came to Konoha. He fought a few, retreated against a few, and was ultimately brought down with the combine help from multiple individuals, but primarily Naruto.


No.  This was the reason Sasuke was sent to the summit:
"I have no regrets."
If Sasuke had confronted Naruto at that point, he would have been down in no time flat.  Just like Madara said, Sasuke had to control the MS more and Sasuke had to realize he needed the EMS.  Him fighting the Kages with Madara making sure he stays alive was the best way.  It also gave a chance for the Kages to show what they could do.  Sasuke was nothing but a joke in comparison.  He wasn't impressive again until fighting Danzo.  That was when I could believe he was able to take Naruto.



> As I said before the only reason why Sasuke is not considered universally the winner of this fight, is because of haters. A's hit didn't do much to Sasuke, and certainly wasn't worth the cost of an arm, but his fans/haters would never admit it.


You must have missed the 100 or so polls where it's roughly 50-50.  Don't believe me?  Go on and start another one, if you want.



> He didn't duck, because he never fathom Susano would fail. Just like he used Amaterasu initially because he didn't think it could be dodge. Please think about your post before hitting the send button.


Right, and because of that oversight, he ended up on the floor.  It doesn't matter how it happened, but that it did.  Sasuke was knocked down by A, which is not a superficial blow.



> Because the fanficiton in your head plays it out that way.


Once again, said the guy who thinks fire is a solid.  You're hardly one to claim someone is laboring under delusions.



> What does Naruto have to do with my post?


You said that no one could have done as well against the Kages as Sasuke.  Naruto could have done better.

/point



> Blind>>>>>>>>>>> Death. IN ALL CASES.


If you loss an arm, you can still fight.  If you lose your eyes, you can't fight at all.


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## LostSelf (Mar 15, 2011)

I agree with everyone in Raikage's side. The guy showed he deserves all the hype he needed.

Also, he stomped the most overrated guy in THIS forum AND the manga.

Raikage overrated? I don't think so, he is a monster, not unbeatable but he is a very hard oponent.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Did Sasuke not just as easily tank Raikage's attack? Raikages attack apart from knocking Sasuke back was just as ineffective.


What does this have to do with anything? You said, _"That is not what Kishi depicted."_ In response to me saying Raikage tanked Chidori and dodged Amaterasu. So i'll ask again, how is that not what Kishi depicted.



> Raikage actions were clearly more thought out than, prior showings. As he was willing to rely on his team to to kill Sasuke, rather than trying to perform a solo act.


I agree that Raikage did regain some of his composure, but there was nothing saying he was completely in his right state of mind. Besides that I'll ask again what does this have to with anything?



> What is this Turrin?


Would that be more effective against Raikage than the combo of Enton and Mini-Susano'o?



> Raikage's was no longer fighting with his team, good sir. Clearly Gara, Konkuro, Temari, Mei, Mifune, Choujuro, were not part of Raikage's team.


Raikage wasn't fighting with these individuals ether. You don't see Raikage ordering Gaara, Kankuro, etc... around do you?



> It has everything to do with it.


How so?



> Every measure you can judge the fight by, falls into Sasuke's favor. Kishi didn't give Raikage anything in this battle, not even a clean hit.


Even if the fight fell into Sasuke's favor, it doesn't mean that Raikage was incapable of matching Sasuke and that the battle wasn't even close. 



> Raikage not fairing to well in that exchange that is what.


All Gaara says is that Raikage would have worsened his injuries, he doesn't say Raikage would loose. So your also speculating on the outcome of the fight, if your saying Sasuke would have won. So if your going to speculate towards that end, than I am going to speculate on how damaged Sasuke would be by the leg drop. 

With that aside, Gaara says he stopped Raikage's attack for two reasons:

Raikage would injure himself more
He wanted to talk to Sasuke

The second implies that Sasuke would not been in a condition to talk if, Raikage's attack had landed. So Gaara's words are not all in favor of Sasuke.



> It was not. Sasuke administer half of his chakara and would have killed the Raikage.
> 
> It was not, considering how Kishi depicted Raikage. It was not considering Raikage didn't hit Sasuke roughly once prior to losing his arm, and Sasuke went on to give an encore presentation.


​
In order for Sasuke to gain the advantage he had to stack MS Techniques damaging his eyes and body and intentionally take Raikage's blow. Sasuke was in the above condition from doing this once. In-order to have a chance at winning Sasuke would have to do this yet again and intentionally take an even more devastating blow from Raikage [the leg drop]. Which means he would be even more damaged than in the above picture

If Sasuke has to intentionally damage himself and take blows from the Raikage to the point where he would be more damaged than in the above picture, than that counts as a close battle.



> Which amounted to what exactly Turrin? Sasuke being forced to use MS means nothing. Sasuke is battling a Kage


It amounts to a-lot actually, as you can see in the above Picture Sasuke was heavily injured from his battle with Raikage. 



> That is *anesthetics*, that is a petty argument.


That is, _"a drug that causes anesthesia?reversible loss of sensation."_ lol

With that aside its clear that Raikage's Karate Chop clearly caused more damage than Sasuke's chidori.

This is Raikage after the Chidori:
​
Sasuke's face and neck before Karate Chop:
​
Sasuke after Karate Chop:
​
Raikage's injury is barely even visible, Sasuke on the other hand is coughing up blood. 



> Yes I fucking honestly do. Why would ask such a stupid question? Correlation supports him being able to either.


Well thats a silly belief you have there considering, from the damage/exhaustion he actually accumulated against Raikage he already couldn't fight the Kages effectively after that battle, hence Sasuke needing Madara and Zetsu to save his life.

If the leg drop had gone through Sasuke would have been even more damaged.



> And what I am arguing is that you have nothing to fall back on to support your claim.


I think the problem here is that, you are some how not realizing how damaged Sasuke was from the fight with Raikage. How damaging it is on Sasuke's eyes, body, etc... to take hits from Raikage and survive. Sasuke didn't come out of any of Raikage's attacks A ok. 

To survive Raiger Bomb, Sasuke had to use Susano'o, which damages his eyes, shortens his life span, and causes great pain/physical damage:
_"Every cell in my body hurts... So this is the risk that Susanoo carries.."_

To counter Raikage's Karate Chop, Sasuke had to use Amaterasu, Enton, and Mini Susano'o. He had his eyes damaged by all three Jutsu, had his body damaged and life span shortened by Susano'o, and was damaged by Raikage's Karate Chop itself.

To counter Raikage's Guillotine Sasuke had to once again stack Enton and Mini-Susano'o damaging his eyes, life span, body, etc... and once again would have had to endure being hit by one of Raikage's powerful blows.

So clearly Sasuke was not coming out of Raikage's attacks A okay and thus I am having trouble reconciling this fact with your view point.



> Blood from his eyes does not mean squat. That is aesthetically the signature of Amaterasu. Kishi has never noted it be a hindrance in ones health.


Yes Kishi has indicated that Blood from his eyes/using MS Techniques damages ones eyes:

_"The more they are used, the further they seal themselves, moving ever closer towards inescapable darkness. // For that is the fate of the Mangekyou Sharingan. // In return for this great power... that same power destroys itself, until the light is lost forever"_



> Sasuke was bleeding from the mouth, which may as well be equivalent to simply anesthetic as it did not produce any long or short term hindrances.


When an author writes a Manga he uses pictures to indicate to readers what's going on. The aesthetic choice on the author's part to have blood dripping profusely from Sasuke's eyes and mouth was to show readers that Sasuke was damaged by the fight with Raikage. 

And the damage Raikage caused Sasuke did produce long term and short term hinderances. In the short term Sasuke was getting heavily damaged and in the long term the damage/exhaustion caused by his fight with the Raikage prevented him from fighting any of the other Kages effectively and is why Mei and Onoki were able to easily kill him and he need his life saved by Zetsu/Madara. 



> You are trying to invent reasons to judge the fight differently from the others, because you know judging it like the others = Sasuke domination


This is how I would judge any fight, if we were discussing how close of a battle it was. 



> Damage that is irrelevant = irrelevant in discussion WITH THE EXCEPTION of Sasuke apparently.


None of those pictures you posted, have any of those people being injured to the same extent as Sasuke. And the Damage and exhaustion Sasuke recieved against the Raikage was not Irrelevant, if it was than Sasuke wouldn't have been so tired/damaged that he couldn't do anything to Mei/Onoki.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> What I found especially funny in the shitstorm fight between the Raikage and Sasuke is the Sauce's counter to A's lethal leg drop. He does realize that putting Amaterasu in front of his facial features to stop the attack would only bring A's Amaterasu-coated leg down on his face in epic fury, thereby burning and smashing it in at the same time?



You sir...you are intelligent, lol. This guy just made alot of sense.


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## supersaiyan146 (Mar 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> What I found especially funny in the shitstorm fight between the Raikage and Sasuke is the Sauce's counter to A's lethal leg drop. He does realize that putting Amaterasu in front of his facial features to stop the attack would only bring A's Amaterasu-coated leg down on his face in epic fury, thereby burning and smashing it in at the same time?



This panel disagrees with you sir


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## vagnard (Mar 15, 2011)

Funny because this is the same forum that considers Gai god among ninjas despise he is far more limited than Raikage. Gai needs to focus his power in a single attack (Morning Peacock, Hirutora, etc) and he still wasn't capable to kill someone like Kisame with it. Raikage's regular punches are strong enough to pierce Juugo's CS2 skin in shield mode and Sasuke's first stage Susano. 

Raikage's armor is so strong that one of the strongest attacks of the series in terms of piercing power barely scratched him. So most elemental jutsus by default would fail against him... and he can evade the rest with raw speed. (he was fast enough to speedblitz a 3-tomoe sharingan user... something even 3 tailed Killer Bee couldn't do it).

Raikage isn't overrated... far from it... and it was confirmed further when we learned young A was capable to cut Hachibi's horn with his armor.


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## C-No (Mar 15, 2011)

Why are people actually arguing about this. Ei is not overrated until on of the kage shows to be on his level aside from Onoki. Sasuke got murked end of story /thread.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 15, 2011)

Turrin said:


> What does this have to do with anything? You said, _"That is not what Kishi depicted."_ In response to me saying Raikage tanked Chidori and dodged Amaterasu. So i'll ask again, how is that not what Kishi depicted.


"Did Sasuke not just as easily tank Raikage's attack? Raikages attack apart from knocking Sasuke back was just as ineffective.

Both attacks drew blood, so please do not try to distinguish this.

Sasuke went on to battle other opponents. Raikage not only had to be saved, but had to recieve medical attention, while Sasuke had to go and handle other business.

ALL WHILE HOLDING BACK."

I'm not going to waist time typing the same response for the same question. Read everything before you respond and you'll clearly see I gave you an exact answer to your point. 








> I agree that Raikage did regain some of his composure, but there was nothing saying he was completely in his right state of mind. Besides that I'll ask again what does this have to with anything?


It was a response to your assessment.

"Who says Raikage was in his clear mind?"




> Would that be more effective against Raikage than the combo of Enton and Mini-Susano'o?


Defensively yes, offensively no. 




> Raikage wasn't fighting with these individuals ether. You don't see Raikage ordering Gaara, Kankuro, etc... around do you?



He doesn't?
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Looks like imperative sentence to me. He doesn't appear to speaking to anyone specifically either. 





> Even if the fight fell into Sasuke's favor, it doesn't mean that Raikage was incapable of matching Sasuke and that the battle wasn't even close.


That battle wasn't close. How much damage did the Raikage do in comparison? How many hits did Raikage land in comparison?

How much damage did Raikage get in comparison? 





> All Gaara says is that Raikage would have worsened his injuries, he doesn't say Raikage would loose. So your also speculating on the outcome of the fight, if your saying Sasuke would have won. So if your going to speculate towards that end, than I am going to speculate on how damaged Sasuke would be by the leg drop.


That's all I said he said. That is the key difference. Raikage is the only one confirmed to have come out of that exchange scathe.

No. good sir. My speculation has a ground to stand on, it has logical base and not just pulled out of my ass. Just like predicting stocks, you use pass correlation and statistic to predict future outcome.

What are you exactly using to way your judgement? 

You downright ignore half of my points or omit them all together, when it is clear you do not have a legitimate response.

I ask you a question I expect an answer. 





> With that aside, Gaara says he stopped Raikage's attack for two reasons:
> 
> Raikage would injure himself more
> He wanted to talk to Sasuke
> ...



"Because Gara could have talked to Sasuke from inside the meeting center?

Wanting to talk to Sasuke could be argued as his very reason for leaving the center in the first place.

Your interpretation of the events, is no more than baseless speculation, an attempt to spin the situation into something that supports your position.

Gara coming off as a smart ass towards the Raikage basically mocking him, for questioning his decision for interfering with the initial response of "Injury" and giving his real reason with the later.

If Kishi wanted to tell us Sasuke would have died in the exchange who would have flat out told us."

This is my response from a previous post.

Gara wanting to talk to Sasuke was the very reason he left the summit, why can't "wanting to talk to Sasuke" really mean wanting to talk to Sasuke.

Gara's statement implies nothing other than what he stated.

The only fate clearly addressed in that statement remains the Raikage. 





> ​
> In order for Sasuke to gain the advantage he had to stack MS Techniques damaging his eyes and body and intentionally take Raikage's blow. Sasuke was in the above condition from doing this once. In-order to have a chance at winning Sasuke would have to do this yet again and intentionally take an even more devastating blow from Raikage [the leg drop]. Which means he would be even more damaged than in the above picture


Sasuke never intentionally took anything.

He was hoping it would keep Raikage at bay as Karin noted. 
http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

Once again you speak of piss and shit Turrin. Sasuke was just adjusting to the situation, I doubt he would expect the Raikage to go that far in order to attack him. 

Sasuke decided to pull the same tactic twice, because the Raikage was pulling the same shit twice. If the same play worked once, and the defense is giving you a chance to do it again, why not?








> If Sasuke has to intentionally damage himself and take blows from the Raikage to the point where he would be more damaged than in the above picture, than that counts as a close battle.


Sasuke never intended to get hit, thus is why he summoned susano and remained behind it for the remainder of the battle. After the previous exchange and the realization that Susano ribs may not be enough, he reinforced it with Amaterasu to prevent Raikage from even attempting to attack, thus keeping the battle at mid range in Sasuke's favor. 

And you bet your ass off Sasuke was not only surprised with Raikage still attacked, but when he manage to hit him as well. Trading blows was the Raikage's tactic, not Sasuke's.

Sasuke utilized enton Kasugutchi, to further support Susano. 

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/





> It amounts to a-lot actually, as you can see in the above Picture Sasuke was heavily injured from his battle with Raikage


He wasn't.
Sasuke before Raikage's only hit

*Spoiler*: __ 








Notice he still has all the scruffles, including the eye bleeding.

Sasuke after Raikage's hit

*Spoiler*: __ 








With the addition of the blood from the mouth, their was no further injuries.

The blood drawn from the eye is simply the utilization of Amaterasu. It doesn't implicate nor imply injury. 

The scruffles, are drawn for aesthetic reasons. Notice Sasuke was never actually hit prior to Raikage's chop, but maintains most of those marks, and scuffles.

The only wounds produces by the Raikage is the bruise to the kneck and the blood from the mouth. Both are anesthetic, and produce no learn term injuries. 

How does one argue about Sasuke being heavily injured in the battle, when he goes on to fight additional Hokage, and utilize a bigger Susano.

If a person is seriously injured, they don't go on to fight additional Kage level opponents. They don't then, pop out extremely taxing jutsu's left and right. 

Sasuke after the Itachi battle, has to be hospitalized. Naruto after the Kakuzu/Pain needed to be carried or hospitalized.

Sasuke goes on to fight additional Kage's and pull out more trumps.
Yet you have the nerve to call him seriously injured. Please read the manga Turrin, as you are making me sad with some of the BS in your post. 






> That is, _"a drug that causes anesthesia—reversible loss of sensation."_ lol


Meant Aesthetic, I'm a math/chem major not English.

Meaning it is something done to entirely for detail/visually. 





> With that aside its clear that Raikage's Karate Chop clearly caused more damage than Sasuke's chidori.




This is Raikage after the Chidori:
​
Sasuke's face and neck before Karate Chop:
​
Sasuke after Karate Chop:
​[/QUOTE]

There is no difference apart from the blood from his mouth, and the bruise on his neck.

Link removed

Raikage's wound is still their as well.

I don't think you checked those pictures thoroughly before posting them. 

Here are better pictures of Sasuke before the chop.
Link removed

http://www.mangaday.com/Naruto/489/14/

All the scuffles on the face were there prior, the blood from the eye prior as well.

Again they have no real difference. 



> Raikage's injury is barely even visible, Sasuke on the other hand is coughing up blood.


Sasuke is coughing up blood or bleeding from the mouth. 

There is a difference.




It appears to only be the later. 



coughing up blood implies internal bleeding, which implies the wounding of a major organ. Raikage attacked the neck/face area. I don't see any major arteries organs in there. Turrin why do you reside to use the same shitty, tired arguments I disputed awhile ago?

Bleeding from the mouth could occur from a busted lip or a number of things.








> Well thats a silly belief you have there considering, from the damage/exhaustion he actually accumulated against Raikage he already couldn't fight the Kages effectively after that battle, hence Sasuke needing Madara and Zetsu to save his life.


Sasuke wasn't exhausted, thus is why he gave us an encore presentation.



> If the leg drop had gone through Sasuke would have been even more damaged.


Proof. Oh that's right you have none. 




> I think the problem here is that, you are some how not realizing how damaged Sasuke was from the fight with Raikage. How damaging it is on Sasuke's eyes, body, etc... to take hits from Raikage and survive. Sasuke didn't come out of any of Raikage's attacks A ok.


I think the problem is, you are trying to place conditions and variables to Sasuke you do not apply to other individual. 

Sasuke wasn't exhausted, as he goes on to use a bigger Susano, more enton jutsu's, chidori. 

Sasuke body was only feeling the effects of Susano which was noted.
Link removed

Who made him utilize Susano more, the other Kage's or Raikage? Who made Sasuke utilized the stronger Susano, the other Kage's or Raikage?

Their is no etc. good sir.

Sasuke did not require medical attention after the Raikage, nor did he need much of a breather. Zetsu/Madara was watching Sasuke the entire time, and was going to get him out of their if it looked like Sasuke couldn't save himself. But this did not happen against the Raikage. 

Sasuke didn't take HITS from the Raikage. He took a hit, and it was insignificant. Thus is why it did not hinder him going on to take on additional battles. 

I think you are mistaken, I never claimed the battle was easy. I claimed the battle was lopsided, and Sasuke dominated. He did. Raikage traded an arm for a bruise. 

Where is the bruise for the rest of the summit?
Link removed

Fuck that where is the blood from the lip?

And to top it off Kishi only bothers to hint Raikage being injured in the final exchange.

Link removed

Kishi gave Raikage nothing in that fight. Hell basically spit on Raikage's sacrifice by disposing of the bruise to his kneck and blood from his mouth, in the same battle.

Yet you have the nerve to claim it was close? 




> To survive Raiger Bomb, Sasuke had to use Susano'o, which damages his eyes, shortens his life span, and causes great pain/physical damage:
> _"Every cell in my body hurts... So this is the risk that Susanoo carries.."_


What's your point? You are scrapping the the bottom of the barrel, because you know Raikage gained nothiing.

Yet Sasuke wasn't feeling none of this here.
takes a-lot out of Sasuke,

All these points are irrelevant because he continued to fight and persue Danzo. 

All these points are irrelevant because he pulled out bigger, more life shortening, more painful, more taxing to the eye overall jutsu.

All these points are irrelevant because he continued to span the same shit it was doing in the Raikage battle. 

As I said before Raikage went to the doctor, Sasuke stayed in the ring. 






> To counter Raikage's Karate Chop, Sasuke had to use Amaterasu, Enton, and Mini Susano'o. He had his eyes damaged by all three Jutsu, had his body damaged and life span shortened by Susano'o, and was damaged by Raikage's Karate Chop itself.


Lol fanfiction.

Read my old point. Sasuke never expected Raikage to even go through with the attack.





> To counter Raikage's Guillotine Sasuke had to once again stack Enton and Mini-Susano'o damaging his eyes, life span, body, etc... and once again* would have had to endure being hit by one of Raikage's powerful blows.*


That wasn't just to counter, that was to end the battle. He was going to put that raging bull down for good, and Garra had to fuck it up. 

And once again you have no proof of the bold.



> So clearly Sasuke was not coming out of Raikage's attacks A okay and thus I am having trouble reconciling this fact with your view point.


Because you have provided shit to support it. Manga does imply Sasuke being hurt, and Correlation doesn't even imply outright, Raikage breaking through, but it does imply Sasuke surviving with little to no damage.

You seem to be ignoring my points outright. Raikage has nothing to argue his worth in this battle. Sasuke delivered more, did more, outsmarted, was able to endure more(meaning before seeing a medic), all while holding back.

I don't even care about the final exchange, but the only person who was CONFIRMED GUARANTEED not to come out OK was the Raikage.  




> Yes Kishi has indicated that Blood from his eyes/using MS Techniques damages ones eyes:
> 
> _"The more they are used, the further they seal themselves, moving ever closer towards inescapable darkness. // For that is the fate of the Mangekyou Sharingan. // In return for this great power... that same power destroys itself, until the light is lost forever"_


No that quote just indicates using MS in general. Blood from MS is the "Aesthetic" signature of Susano. 

Amaterasu damages his eye in general, the blood does not indicate anything but Amaterasu emerging. 




> When an author writes a Manga he uses pictures to indicate to readers what's going on. The aesthetic choice on the author's part to have blood dripping profusely from Sasuke's eyes and mouth was to show readers that Sasuke was damaged by the fight with Raikage.


And when he takes it off a few panels laters and has person continue fighting.
takes a-lot out of Sasuke,

Indicates that it is not serious.

It is not profusely dripping from his mouth(eyes is irrelevant it means nothing).

It is not flowing in excess, it is not a large ammount. No different than this
takes a-lot out of Sasuke,

Please stop trying to embellish Raikage's feats, as it really it was not that big of a deal. 




> And the damage Raikage caused Sasuke did produce long term and short term hinderances. In the short term Sasuke was getting heavily damaged and in the long term the damage/exhaustion caused by his fight with the Raikage prevented him from fighting any of the other Kages effectively and is why Mei and Onoki were able to easily kill him and he need his life saved by Zetsu/Madara.


Heavily Damage? Where did you get a crazy idea like that. I'm done you, if you are going to make up crazy fanfiction. 

Exhaustion? Sasuke was so exhausted that he want on to use even more MS jutsu , even more chidori variants, take on even more Kage's + bodyguards.

Prevented him from fighting any other Kage's effectively? He fought Gara and the gang very effectively. The Kage's were not his targets, and Karin found Danzo. Their was no need for him to stay and continue a pointless battle, that he didn't even want in the first place.

Did you not forget that he used chakara against multiple people not named Raikage? Did you forget, that he used a bigger Susano against individuals not named Raikage? Sasuke couldn't put up a fight against Mei, because of lack of chakara. Chakara expended from performing multiple things not just the Raikage. Please do not play dumb with me, as I am very aware of the events that has happened. 

He needed his life saved because the fight has long stop being Sasuke vs. Raikage. It was a Kage summit vs. Sasuke from the beginning.

The Samurai, Mifune, Raikage group, Gara's group, 2/3 of mei group, and Tsuchikage all contributed in Sasuke's defeat.

Notice Raikage is just a single name in that group.

As I said before you sound desperate, and almost sound as if you are not even trying to think through your points.


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## silenceofthelambs (Mar 15, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> This panel disagrees with you sir



No, actually it disagrees with you.  Raikage's bitchslap connected with the Sauce, even though he lost his arm; the same would have happened with the leg drop. He would have killed Sasuke, but lost his leg in the process.

SuperMinato146, are you a Sasutardke fan?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> No, actually it disagrees with you.  Raikage's bitchslap connected with the Sauce, even though he lost his arm; the same would have happened with the leg drop. He would have killed Sasuke, but lost his leg in the process.
> 
> SuperMinato146, are you a Sasutardke fan?



How do you know Raikage would have only lost a leg? What logic are you using to back that up?


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## silenceofthelambs (Mar 15, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> How do you know Raikage would have only lost a leg? What logic are you using to back that up?



Logically speaking, IpHr0z3nI, tell me why the Raikage would have lost more than a leg as he prepared to finish Sasuke off, as according to the implication in your statement. He was attacking with nothing more than his left leg, don't see why he would lose any other body part.

Besides, even if Raikage lost something else in the process, he wouldn't care at all. He already openly told Darui he has no regrets about his arm. I'm pretty sure he would also have no regrets about a leg if it meant killing the person who harmed his brother. Point is, Sasuke would have died and A would've been a cripple for the rest of his life.  Who wins?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Logically speaking, IpHr0z3nI, tell me why the Raikage would have lost more than a leg as he prepared to finish Sasuke off, as according to the implication in your statement. He was attacking with nothing more than his left leg, don't see why he would lose any other body part.


No, no, no. My friend the better question is how do you figured Sasuke would have been seriously injured, much less died?

Sasuke was preparing to finish of the Raikage as well. 

Link removed
Actually the spikes were aimed at more than his left leg but entire lower section.

Link removed

The Raikage would be lucky to just lose his left leg.


You have mistaken my intention. I am questioning your logic used to derive Raikage only losing his left leg, but Sasuke dying. 

I am trying to understand the reasoning behind your assumption.

Two previous attacks by the Raikage produced a bruise on the neck.

Two previous attacks failed to even cause Sasuke very little harm.

The logic that the third would even cause a severe injury, much less kills Sasuke is illogical. In fact one can only come to that conclusion if they were purely biased.

Was the leg drop noted to be any more powerful than the previous attacks? What variables have change from the previous placebo? 

Kishi doesn't even hint Raikage would be able to successful break through Kasagutchi + Amaterasu much less harm Sasuke, as that in itself has a 50% success rate.

Why does no body respond to these points. Out of the 5 individuals I have layed out these KEY FACTS too none of them have had any sort of response.

I'm not even making the assumption Sasuke would be okay, I am just stating the facts that statistically Sasuke has a good chance of coming out of that attack in good condition.

I am stating the manga only indicates Raikage being harmed in that attack.
Gara's "wanting to talk to Sasuke" does not mean anything, it is the sole reason he left the meeting place to begin with. But a person trying can spin it to mean anything.

Sasuke having bigger Susano  but not using it, should indicate he felt Susano + Enton Kasagutchi was enough to counter the Raikage. 

I have spent hours in this debate, so this is now going be more response to any future responses.


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## Forlong (Mar 15, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The logic that the third would even cause a severe injury, much less kills Sasuke is illogical. In fact one can only come to that conclusion if they were purely biased.


The perfect example of bias.  You ask for logic to why A's attack could have been lethal, when you claim that the Amaterasu could have killed him.  That makes no sense is it has failed to harm ANYONE.  Not even fodder have died from it.  So, by your own logic, it makes no sense to assume that jutsu would have done jack crap.

As for why Sasuke was more likely to sustain injury, the Susano'o was obviously damaged and that makes an injury more likely.


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## sinjin long (Mar 15, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> No, no, no. My friend the better question is how do you figured Sasuke would have been seriously injured, much less died?
> 
> Sasuke was preparing to finish of the Raikage as well.
> 
> ...



OMG dude you're killin me. please for the LOVE OF GOD take off your sasuke rules glasses and please,PLEASE at least TRY to look at this unbiased. simple exercise: defend the opposing POV. if you can do that perhaps you will not be viewed as completely biased. if you notice i have never degraded sasuke only those outlandish claims of sasuke fans. you know me,you've seen my posts.hell i've even +repped you when admiring your points. 

but any way i will try to address these posts of yours and perhaps help explain the communication breakdown that your just not recognizing.(i hold you in high esteem as a regular debating opponent and would much rather believe you just dont see it,rather than your just ignoring it or you acting tardish,which is below you.)

the spikes aimed at lower half vs left leg- it could be either one honestly,it depends on POV,some see left leg,you come from a sasuke POV see whole lower body.

previous attacks- you see only a bruise,others see the cumulative effect of everything ,the bruise the bloody mouth,the visible wear/tear,being forced to relying on his strongest defense,not being able to keep up/react to opponent speed or power,relying on strongest jutsu to survive,etc.,not to mention you give sauce major credit for the chidori and the smallest acknowledgement for raikage's damage to him. its uneven good sir  the hand should be a draw ,yes sasuke flame damaged the hand,but not b/c of sasuke,it as basically self inflicted,so really if sasuke is as great as you claim,doesn't claiming this kinda look ...pathetic?

leg drop killing/severly injuring sasuke- raikage has already proven to be able to injurs sauce thru susanno,and to be able to break it. logic and physics agree that he had a fair shot and doing both in this instance,and catching sasuke aflame with his own amaterasu to boot.

statistics are only good for vague statements of context. they lay out facts,but you twist them to try and make sasuke out as the better,w/o any context of what exactly was happening,as some sort of justification. we all read the same chapter,statistics only are a false representation of the whole story. again,this kinda of thing is below you.

key facts- AS YOU SEE THEM with a obvious sasuke tilt- which is fine your a big fan, nothing wrong with that. the prob is when you just refuse to recognize that perhaps your fanaticism is leading you to see what you want to see,and your stubbornness is not allowing you to see the other side.

gaara's statement about raikage- of course he would be further injured,but the absence of a stement about sasuke means nothing. its merely an absence of a statement. there is a thing as common sense and LOGICAL inference.

nothing leads to believe that sasuke at the time was capable of accessing or using the full susanno. later yes,but that may of only been possible due to his mastery of the lower stages from this fight, not to mention this is also after having his chakra replenished and karin healing him. these may be a factor. the leap you take to assume he could is exactly equal to the opposing leap that he could not.

raikage got medical attention- so did sasuke just later at the 1st oppurtunity  he had,and a chakra replenishment,and a save,and he ran from gaara,raikage and company,he didnt fight them,he tried amaterasu,gaara blocked it,he used susanno to escape. you see it as ++++ for sasuke,others see as --------- for him. who's right whos wrong? we dont know,but can you at least admit that you may be incorrect?not that you are,hell you may 100%,I dont think so but who knows?


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## joshhookway (Mar 15, 2011)

he's not overrated, he's sterotypical


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## Skywalker (Mar 15, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> He is as good as I said. If he wasn't so good, would people go this far to downplay him or his feats? They do not want to argue wants on panel, they don't to use the typical way we judge a fight, they want argue the arbitrary.
> 
> Why do people even bring hiding behind Susano into the discussion. Wasn't Raikage hiding behind his shroud? Sasuke would have made short WORK, of Raikage in without his shroud.
> 
> ...


Sasuke is a pansy and couldn't handle _any_ of Kages without hiding behind Susano'o the whole fight, end of story, and he still almost died without being saved by Madara. 

A actually deserves all the hype he gets, atleast he's a good character, Sasuke is just annoying to see, Itachi should've just killed him off when he had the chance.


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## supersaiyan146 (Mar 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> No, actually it disagrees with you.  Raikage's bitchslap connected with the Sauce, even though he lost his arm; the same would have happened with the leg drop. He would have killed Sasuke, but lost his leg in the process.
> 
> SuperMinato146, are you a Sasutardke fan?



That panel disagrees with you saying that Amaterasu was gonna burn his handsome face 
Ans also had he attempted the leg drop chances are high that Amaterasu could spread to other parts of his body thereby killing him .
I agree that Sasuke may be killed in the process too.

No .infact I am a Sasuke hater


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 15, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> OMG dude you're killin me. please for the LOVE OF GOD take off your sasuke rules glasses and please,PLEASE at least TRY to look at this unbiased. simple exercise: defend the opposing POV. if you can do that perhaps you will not be viewed as completely biased. if you notice i have never degraded sasuke only those outlandish claims of sasuke fans. you know me,you've seen my posts.hell i've even +repped you when admiring your points.


Look at it unbiased? Couldn't I say the same for you. I am well aware of your history as well good sir.

The counters you and others have presented is one in the same BS. Look at my post through out this thread. I posted the same damn argument to the say damn silly points. I have yet to see a response to many of my points. As the common tactic seems to be select and choose what an individual wants to respond too. You would have been better off getting down to the niddy griddy, as calling me bias etc. etc. does not faze me whats so ever. 

The points I presented in the post you are responding too is not bias. It is strictly what the fucking manga has showed. I am not putting any spin in the last post, nor am I placing any interpretation. I am presenting the key statistics of the god damn fight. So please spare me fanboy BS. I have heard it all before. 



> but any way i will try to address these posts of yours and perhaps help explain the communication breakdown that your just not recognizing.(i hold you in high esteem as a regular debating opponent and would much rather believe you just dont see it,rather than your just ignoring it or you acting tardish,which is below you.)


Please jump right into it. There is no need to delay. If you can counter them than you wouldn't have taken this long to answer the post. 





> the spikes aimed at lower half vs left leg- it could be either one honestly,it depends on POV,some see left leg,you come from a sasuke POV see whole lower body.


This is what I am talking about. You are not arguing what I am arguing. You present a different question. I different point all together. It's awfully disrespectful to not respond directly to the points presented by a debater before presenting your own. 

I don't care where it was aimed at, I am not even contesting Raikage's injuries. I am questioning your reasons for believing in Success from Raikages third attack.

I agree with you here it is debatable. 



> previous attacks- you see only a bruise,others see the cumulative effect of everything ,the bruise the bloody mouth,the visible wear/tear,being forced to relying on his strongest defense,not being able to keep up/react to opponent speed or power,relying on strongest jutsu to survive,etc.,not to mention you give sauce major credit for the chidori and the smallest acknowledgement for raikage's damage to him. its uneven good sir  the hand should be a draw ,yes sasuke flame damaged the hand,but not b/c of sasuke,it as basically self inflicted,so really if sasuke is as great as you claim,doesn't claiming this kinda look ...pathetic?


Cumulative effects of what? Susano does not waiver not falter because of Sasuke's condition. This is a mute point.

It is damn well irrelevant.

The blood from his mouth doesn't not equal serious injuries I a have argued this same shit before. The fact that he was able to get up and continue to push himself indicates it was a none factor. 

You continue with this babble that leads to no where, clearly dancing around my points like a ballerina at a disco.

This in fact has nothing to do with my post, and I have already argued this before so my response is somewhere between page  4-11.

What you and others do not seem to understand is Sasuke, kept fighting.

For all the talk, for all the BS you and others are trying to argue about fatigue, bodily injury, wear-tear apparently it wasn't enough to keep Sasuke from his continued assault.

He used Susano bones on Raikage, he didn't even see his attacks, big enough to bring about stage two.

Sasuke using MS means nothing. Sasuke has shown continuously that he does not shy away from MS usage. It's become implemented into his fighting style, just like CS.

Sasuke is not his brother that is what you and others fell to understand. MS are a first option, much like he incorporated CS into his fighting style.

Look at all of part two. Sasuke has used his wings continuously to block, even if he was in a position to dodge. Remember what MS replaced. Remember how much Sasuke relied on the merits of the CS and snakes.  

What you people want to do is give Raikage browny points for things others have did as well. 

Gara forced Ssauke to rely on Susano, so did Mei. Do they get praise too? They forced Sasuke to utilize MS jutsu do they get praise too.

Hell Sasuke Sasuke utilized MS on this fodder, and got blind further etc. etc.

Link removed

I think the presumption is that individuals do not understand my argument, or they don't want to understand my argument. Or the obvious case they don't want to acknowledge it. 

Never once did I claim the Raikage was weak, I claimed Sasuke just dominated. 

You argue that Sasuke wasn't able to react, as an argument to claim what? What does Sasuke not able to react equate? Sasuke was also unable to kill Danzo for the longest, unable to hit K0 Naruto for the longest, Unable to compete with K1 for the longest etc. etc.

Sasuke made adjustments, in order to compete. 

And read my response I don't give Sas credit for anything other than adjusting, and making the right calls against Raikage. Sasuke started off with the advantage, Raikage did gain the advantage, and then Sasuke regained the advantage. 

Raikage didn't even get much of an opportunity to utilize his need found speed advantage, as Sasuke immediately adapted. 

I simply pointed to the chidori, as comparable to Raikage's blow to Sasuke. 

This is the problem with the boards, people read what they want to read or they do not comprehend what they are reading.

Sasuke's chidori s irrelevant, as with Raikage's chop. Both drew blood, but with no long term penalties so it was irrelevant. 

Sasuke is making the better adjustments than Raikage, is the reason I think he dominated the fight. 

The fact that Raikage is permanently disfigured, while Sasuke went unscathed is why I believe he dominated.

The fact that Kishi gave the Raikage no obvious bright spots, that it is up to interpretation as we are currently doing is the reason why I think the battle was one sided.

If the roles were reverse and Sasuke was missing an eye, while Raikage gained a bruise on his kneck, and was confirmed to be in a worse condition had the battle continued I doubt we would be having this discussion, as Raikage would unanimously be declared the winner.  







> leg drop killing/severly injuring sasuke- raikage has already proven to be able to injurs sauce thru susanno,and to be able to break it. logic and physics agree that he had a fair shot and doing both in this instance,and catching sasuke aflame with his own amaterasu to boot.


He has also proven to not be able to as well.

He has a 50% success rate at it. And Sasuke has a 100% success rate in surviving. 

Susano does not waiver in defense do to chakara's condition on anything but chakara, but we know from his post feats, that he had plenty of gas left in the tank.

Sasuke has a bigger Susano, but didn't bother to put it up, should be the KEY IDEA, that you and others seem to overlook. Sasuke has showed, that he is very capable of making adjustment, he has seen the Raikage break through the rib cage, yet didn't whip out a bigger Susano, instead he opted to reshape Amaterasu.

I think people are overlooking, the fact that he reshaped Amatearsu into a spike formation. Their has to be a purpose for doing this, over forming the bigger Susano. Susano has shown to form instantly so time was not a factor.

All these variables can be applied to other statistics that already favor Sasuke. And this is not bias, but pure plain logic. 



> statistics are only good for vague statements of context. they lay out facts,but you twist them to try and make sasuke out as the better,w/o any context of what exactly was happening,as some sort of justification. we all read the same chapter,statistics only are a false representation of the whole story. again,this kinda of thing is below you.


Statistics is all we have, sense Kishi gave us no room to waiver on Sasuke's condition. He didn't emphasize his condition either favorably or non favorably.

I don't twist shit. What have I twisted? The only one twisting is you and others in Garra's statement. Twisting implies one doing additional work in order to interpret something.

Laying out statics is not twisting anything. It is a analysis of facts.

What twisting is involve here. 
*Spoiler*: __ 




"
Two previous attacks by the Raikage produced a bruise on the neck.

Two previous attacks failed to even cause Sasuke very little harm.

The logic that the third would even cause a severe injury, much less kills Sasuke is illogical. In fact one can only come to that conclusion if they were purely biased.

Was the leg drop noted to be any more powerful than the previous attacks? What variables have change from the previous placebo? "




What am I twisting here? It's because it sounds bad for pro Raikage arguers right?

The fact is I can state Sasuke would not only survive, but survive unharmed and point to the statistics to argue my point.

You can state Sasuke would be dead or in critical condition, but you have nothing to support this view. You statistics do not agree with it, and their is no manga statement to confirm it.

That is the difference between my view and others. 

I love it how one can claim one persons biased,  but ignore that one could easily reverse that same argument. This despise this argument the most, thus is why I go out of my way to give examples and explain exactly how, what I used, and why I came to my opinion. You would rarely see any post of mine with an opinion that doesn't.






> key facts- AS YOU SEE THEM with a obvious sasuke tilt- which is fine your a big fan, nothing wrong with that. the prob is when you just refuse to recognize that perhaps your fanaticism is leading you to see what you want to see,and your stubbornness is not allowing you to see the other side.


How is reiterating manga cannon bias? I did not state anything that isn't supported by the manga. It's because they heavily do not favor Raikage. 

You cannot refute them so you call me bias. This is a noobish response, and I rarely use that term. It's easy to call someone bias and dismiss their points. I've been a member of this board for almost 4 years, so I pretty much know all the regulars poster favorite character, but rarely do I use they are bias to dismiss their points. I use manga cannon.

How is those statics bias? Thoroughly explain this to me and you win the argument. 

Did I place a spin on any of those facts. 

Is Raikage not 50% in breaking though Susano?

Is Sasuke not a 100% in coming out in battle ready condition? Wear and Tear, blindness, etc. etc. means nothing as we are not arguing what he suffered in total damage. We are simply using what he gain from Raikage's chop.

I never declared how Sasuke would fair, but the fact that you call me bias for posting the statistics. Your mind easily comes to comes to that conclusion, implies that you too reach that conclusion when reading those statistics. 








> gaara's statement about raikage- of course he would be further injured,but the absence of a stement about sasuke means nothing. its merely an absence of a statement. there is a thing as common sense and LOGICAL inference.


Did I say it didn't? I simply sated their is no evidence to assume either way. THUS is why I argue statistics is the only NON BIASED way to predict the outcome.

We use the same logic allot, but no one ever acknowledges.

If Sasuke released another Amaterasu, we utilize statistics to say he would dodge it.

If Sasuke use statics to say if another fight between Oro and Itachi would break out, Itachi would win.

These are just small examples how we use statistics. 



> nothing leads to believe that sasuke at the time was capable of accessing or using the full susanno. later yes,but that may of only been possible due to his mastery of the lower stages from this fight, not to mention this is also after having his chakra replenished and karin healing him. these may be a factor. the leap you take to assume he could is exactly equal to the opposing leap that he could not.


The full Susano? I mean the second stage, and Jugo does infact hint that he had it before the summit.

Link removed
Link removed

So your first sentence is dis proven thus your entire paragraph is.  




> raikage got medical attention- so did sasuke just later at the 1st oppurtunity  he had,and a chakra replenishment,and a save,and he ran from gaara,raikage and company,he didnt fight them,he tried amaterasu,gaara blocked it,he used susanno to escape. you see it as ++++ for sasuke,others see as --------- for him. who's right whos wrong? we dont know,but can you at least admit that you may be incorrect?not that you are,hell you may 100%,I dont think so but who knows?



He had a chakara replenishment, but that was only half the problem.
Link removed

Sasuke's main injuries, Sasuke's only injuries came from the over usage of Susano. We've seen the effects of Susano used in excess in the Danzo battle.

Link removed
Link removed

This is not to say Raikage wasn't a cause of it, but he wasn't the only cause.

Raikage actual attack didn't do any significant damage, point blank period. 
The fact that zetsu/Madara didn't come to his rescue is proof of this. The fact that Sasuke still went on to unleash additional jutsu, including a stronger Susano.

You argue on the issue of bias, but being bias towards a character has it's merits. As you can clearly see, I am more details in the facts about Sasuke, than yourself. I person can be more passionate about the argument, thus leading to better discussion. A person can also be stagnant on alternative views from the opposition; this is why I go out of my way to explain in detail my thought process and how I arrived at that my opinion.

None of my opinion in nor my points are baseless. We may not see eye to eye on the issue of injuries, but one cannot make the argument of pointing the statistics bias, as it is just a reiteration of what the manga has presented.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> "Did Sasuke not just as easily tank Raikage's attack? Raikages attack apart from knocking Sasuke back was just as ineffective.


Again this has nothing to do with what I said. I said Raikage dodged Amaterasu and tanked Chidori. You argued the author didn't portray him as doing such, but he clearly did since I can get manga scans and show you Raikage doding Amaterasu and tanking chidori. What Sasuke did has nothing to do with this.



> It was a response to your assessment.


I known what it was in response to, but I fail to see how you proved Raikage was in his normal state of mind. You just proved he cooled down a bit, nothing more and nothing less



> Defensively yes, offensively no.


It doesn't matter if it would have been better defensively since Sasuke could have never won the battle through using Stage 2 Susano'o since he would have no way of landing an attack on Raikage. His best option was to use the Enton Shield and Mini-Susano'o combo, it had nothing to do with him holding back. 



> He doesn't?
> Link removed
> 
> Looks like imperative sentence to me. He doesn't appear to speaking to anyone specifically either.


So you posted a scan of him saying "after him" with the only one beside him being C to prove that he was giving in battle tactical commands and fighting alongside Gaara, Kankuro, etc...

Simply put what your saying never happened in the manga. While Gaara and the others were engaging Sasuke, Raikage was off doing his own thing and never once did he work together with the Suna Shinobi.



> That battle wasn't close. How much damage did the Raikage do in comparison? How many hits did Raikage land in comparison?
> 
> How much damage did Raikage get in comparison?


Raikage did a-lot of damage to Sasuke. Sasuke did more, but its not by such a huge margin that the battle wasn't even close.



> What are you exactly using to way your judgement?


Here is my criteria

The Last time Sasuke countered R2 Raikage's attack, he stacked Enton and Susano'o, which heavily damages his eyes, body, and life span and he also received a good amount of damage from Raikage's attack.

So if history repeats, which it was going to since Sasuke once again was using Enton and Mini Susano'o to counter the attack, Sasuke would have been even more damaged after that exchange. 

Pretty simple



> Your interpretation of the events, is no more than baseless speculation, an attempt to spin the situation into something that supports your position.


Raikage asked Gaara *his reasoning* for stopping his attack, part of Gaara's *response* was that he wanted to talk with Sasuke. 

IF Sasuke was going to be perfectly fine after the leg drop, than why would Gaara need to stop the attack just to talk to him? Why couldn't Gaara talk to him after the attack had gone through?



> Sasuke decided to pull the same tactic twice, because the Raikage was pulling the same shit twice. If the same play worked once, and the defense is giving you a chance to do it again, why not?


You believe Sasuke could have used Stage 2 Susano'o to defend Raikage's attacks at any point if he wanted to correct? If thats the case, than when Raikage used Leg Drop, Sasuke could have used Susano'o Stage 2 defend, right?

If he had the choice and picked Mini-Susano'o + Enton, than he was indeed choosing to take Raikage's attack in order to land one of his own.



> With the addition of the blood from the mouth, their was no further injuries.


So why exactly are you ignoring all the self imposed damage that Sasuke caused himself in his battle with Raikage? Like Damaging his eyes, body, and life span with MS spamming? 



> There is no difference apart from the blood from his mouth, and the bruise on his neck.


Yes and thats more damage than what Sasuke accomplished with Chidori.



> coughing up blood implies internal bleeding, which implies the wounding of a major organ. Raikage attacked the neck/face area. I don't see any major arteries organs in there. Turrin why do you reside to use the same shitty, tired arguments I disputed awhile ago?


There are major arteries in the neck the: Carotid Arteries. 

But overall I don't care what is causing him to blood to poor from his mouth. All I care about is the fact that the attack clearly did more damage than Sasuke's Chidori.



> Sasuke wasn't exhausted, thus is why he gave us an encore presentation.


Sasuke was also given Chakra by Zetsu, healed by Karin, and had some downtime between fights. If Sasuke wasn't in horrible condition he wouldn't have been so useless against Mei and Onoki



> Sasuke wasn't exhausted, thus is why he gave us an encore presentation.


The fact that a lesser attack from R2 Raikage did damage to Sasuke through the same exact defense, is proof enough for any anyone to come to this conclusion



> Sasuke wasn't exhausted


So you think 100% Sasuke would perform that badly against the Kages, man you must think he is incredible weak.



> As I said before Raikage went to the doctor, Sasuke stayed in the ring.


Sasuke stayed in the ring, but would have died because of it. Raikage went to the doctor and survived. Sasuke should have done the same. 



> Read my old point. Sasuke never expected Raikage to even go through with the attack.


Its fanfiction that Sasuke used Mini-Susano'o and Enton to counter Raikage's attack. Lets ask the author:

Karin: _(Brilliant!! A shield of black flames! // The Raikage's Shunshin speed is on a whole different level! Since he can't keep up with it with his eyes, he instead creates a shield that cannot be touched! That should stop him from being able to attack Sasuke carelessly!)_



> That wasn't just to counter, that was to end the battle. He was going to put that raging bull down for good, and Garra had to fuck it up.
> 
> And once again you have no proof of the bold.


Its funny how hypocritical this is. 



> I don't even care about the final exchange, but the only person who was CONFIRMED GUARANTEED not to come out OK was the Raikage.


So to you Sasuke having caused permanent damage to his eyes, shortened his life span, and also having accumulated several wounds, came out of things A OK lol. This is just getting ridiculous.



> No that quote just indicates using MS in general. Blood from MS is the "Aesthetic" signature of Susano.
> 
> Amaterasu damages his eye in general, the blood does not indicate anything but Amaterasu emerging.


The Blood indicates the eyes being damaged, I could ask a 4 year old to read the manga and they would know that.

Aside from that, why does it even matter? My point is that he was damaging his eyes.



> Prevented him from fighting any other Kage's effectively? He fought Gara and the gang very effectively. The Kage's were not his targets, and Karin found Danzo. Their was no need for him to stay and continue a pointless battle, that he didn't even want in the first place.


Sasuke did absolutely nothing to Gaara. He would have died against Mei and Onoki if not for Zetsu/Madara. So no he was not able to combat any Kages effectively after his duel with Raikage. 

If your going to pretend that Raikage did absolutely nothing to Sasuke and that the battle wasn't even close despite the fact that Sasuke had to intentionally take one of Raikage's strongest attacks just to have a chance at defeating him, than I'm done here.


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## Gabe (Mar 15, 2011)

he is not overrated he is a great taijutsus fighter and even gai would have trouble with him


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## Forlong (Mar 16, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Look at it unbiased? Couldn't I say the same for you. I am well aware of your history as well good sir.
> 
> The counters you and others have presented is one in the same BS. Look at my post through out this thread. I posted the same damn argument to the say damn silly points. I have yet to see a response to many of my points. As the common tactic seems to be select and choose what an individual wants to respond too. You would have been better off getting down to the niddy griddy, as calling me bias etc. etc. does not faze me whats so ever.
> 
> The points I presented in the post you are responding too is not bias. It is strictly what the fucking manga has showed. I am not putting any spin in the last post, nor am I placing any interpretation. I am presenting the key statistics of the god damn fight. So please spare me fanboy BS. I have heard it all before.


Dude, the reason we say you're bias is because you apply certain rules to everyone in the manga _but_ Sasuke.

"Sasuke took A's arm, that means he won."
Does that apply to when Gaara took Deidara's arm?  When Fuu and Tirune took Madara's?

"Sasuke did more damage, so he won."
Does that apply to Naruto when he fought Orochimaru?  When Deidara fought Sasuke?



> I don't care where it was aimed at, I am not even contesting Raikage's injuries. I am questioning your reasons for believing in Success from Raikages third attack.


The first attack did no damage because of the Susano'o.
"I have no regrets."
However, you can see that it damaged the Susano'o as well.

The second attack worked somewhat.  It didn't kill Sasuke, but it broke his defense and damaged him in some way.
"I have no regrets."

So it makes perfect sense to assume that an attack aimed at the opening he made would do more damage.  The Amaterasu already showed that it could do absolutely nothing and this BS about Sasuke keeping Stage 2 in his back pocket, DBZ style, is just ludicrous.  If he could do that, why didn't he bring it out and destroy the pillars right away rather than listen to Gaara talk?

But the rules of logic don't apply to Sasuke, because that's not bias.



> Cumulative effects of what? Susano does not waiver not falter because of Sasuke's condition. This is a mute point.


"I have no regrets."
The manga disagrees.



> The blood from his mouth doesn't not equal serious injuries I a have argued this same shit before. The fact that he was able to get up and continue to push himself indicates it was a none factor.


Be sure to tell that to everyone that has ever vomited blood. 

Also, if Sasuke coughing up blood isn't serious because he could keep fighting, the same applies to A!  Oh, sorry, applying those rules to A is bias.  We have to hold Sasuke to a lower standard than everyone else, because that's fair.



> What you and others do not seem to understand is Sasuke, kept fighting.


"I have no regrets."
"I have no regrets."
"I have no regrets."
So could A, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Besides, what did Sasuke do after that?  Held off five shinobi for a few seconds (okay, that's pretty good), nearly got killed by Mei in five seconds (um...well that's totally lame), and nearly got killed by Onoki _after having his chakra replenished_ in two seconds (FAIL!).  The majority of the attack on the summit was Sasuke's fight against A, and that wore him out.  Sasuke was far from better off than A in that fight.



> Sasuke is not his brother that is what you and others fell to understand. MS are a first option, much like he incorporated CS into his fighting style.


Sasuke's lack of being able to use his jutsu effectively is part of the issue.  A used his jutsu more wisely.  He ended up losing an arm, but look how long it took before he took a major risk?  A lot longer than it took Sasuke.



> Gara forced Ssauke to rely on Susano, so did Mei. Do they get praise too? They forced Sasuke to utilize MS jutsu do they get praise too.


Yes.



> Never once did I claim the Raikage was weak, I claimed Sasuke just dominated.


Which is complete BS.  At first, it seemed like an even match-up.  However, once A dodged the Amaterasu, the balance tipped in his favor.  Sasuke had to be on the defensive, because none of his attacks were working.  A then knocked him down and was executing a major strike when Gaara stopped him.  Regardless of who you expect would have won, neither actually dominated the fight, though A had the advantage when it was interrupted.



> Sasuke's chidori s irrelevant, as with Raikage's chop. Both drew blood, but with no long term penalties so it was irrelevant.


Gee, who was saying "Sasuke did more damage, so he won!"?  Sure wasn't me!



> The fact that Raikage is permanently disfigured, while Sasuke went unscathed is why I believe he dominated.


Deidara was permanently disfigured after his fight with Gaara, so did Gaara win?  Oh, sorry, I'm applying things fairly again.  Gotta stop that.

Also, this is not unscathed:
"I have no regrets."
He has injuries and spent most of his chakra.  He was in no state to fight anyone else, yet he did.  So being stupid is reason to give him praise?



> He has also proven to not be able to as well.
> 
> He has a 50% success rate at it. And Sasuke has a 100% success rate in surviving.


Statistics don't work like that.  You can't use statistics to prove how effective repeated attacks are going to be.  Susano'o has and can break, so if the defense is weakened, it's possible for attacks to do more and more damage.



> Sasuke has a bigger Susano, but didn't bother to put it up, should be the KEY IDEA, that you and others seem to overlook. Sasuke has showed, that he is very capable of making adjustment, he has seen the Raikage break through the rib cage, yet didn't whip out a bigger Susano, instead he opted to reshape Amaterasu.


Once again, I point out that's BS.  If that was the case, why not bring out Stage 2 _and_ use the Amaterasu?  A just broke through both the Amaterasu and Stage 1 Susano'o.  Wouldn't it make sense do improve the defense?  But if you want to believe Sasuke is a complete moron, be my guest.  And why not pull it out and take down the pillars rather than listen to Gaara talk?



> I think people are overlooking, the fact that he reshaped Amatearsu into a spike formation. Their has to be a purpose for doing this, over forming the bigger Susano. Susano has shown to form instantly so time was not a factor.


And you're overlooking the fact that fire isn't solid.  It isn't even matter!  You can't even use the "this is manga" argument because fire has not shown such properties in this manga.  You accuse us of assuming Sasuke would be hurt under no basis, but say that the Amaterasu would slow A when that _defies logic_.  Yeah, not applying the logic of the Narutoverse to Sasuke.  That's totally not bias.

Also, look at a flame for five seconds:

The shape is similar to a spike.  If Sasuke were directing it, it would form into that shape as it moves.



> And this is not bias, but pure plain logic.


Fire=solid is logical?




> Two previous attacks failed to even cause Sasuke very little harm.


"I have no regrets."
Link removed
If you _looked_ at Sasuke, you'd see the chop gave him a nasty bruise on his neck and shoulder.  Failed to cause him a little harm...yeah.  Not paying attention to what's in the manga to continue to labor under a preconceived conclusion?  Could that be bias?



> You can state Sasuke would be dead or in critical condition, but you have nothing to support this view. You statistics do not agree with it, and their is no manga statement to confirm it.


Fire is a chemical reaction and wouldn't have done anything but make A's attack worse for Sasuke.  You have nothing to support the contrary.  Believing it would do something it logically couldn't is: B-I-A-S!



> You cannot refute them so you call me bias.


No.  We call you bias because you _are_.



> The full Susano? I mean the second stage, and Jugo does infact hint that he had it before the summit.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...


No, Jugo was wondering if that was what Sasuke was talking about, implying that he _didn't_ have it.  Thanks for proving yourself wrong.  Saves us a lot of trouble.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 16, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Again this has nothing to do with what I said. I said Raikage dodged Amaterasu and tanked Chidori. You argued the author didn't portray him as doing such, but he clearly did since I can get manga scans and show you Raikage doding Amaterasu and tanking chidori. What Sasuke did has nothing to do with this.


"Did Sasuke not just as easily tank Raikage's attack? Raikages attack apart from knocking Sasuke back was just as ineffective."

This addresses your second sentence to a T.

"Sasuke went on to battle other opponents. Raikage not only had to be saved, but had to recieve medical attention, while Sasuke had to go and handle other business. "

This was your original point was it not

*Spoiler*: __ 




"Raikage clearly was a match for Sasuke alone. Base Sasuke's strongest piercing attack did effectively nothing to Raikage Which means all Sasuke had in his arsenal that could even hurt Raikage was Amaterasu/Enton, Kirin, and maybe Susano'o's Sword. But Raikage dodged Amaterasu, which is Sasuke's fastest attack, which means Sasuke is incapable of landing any attack on Raikage."




And my response

*Spoiler*: __ 




"That is not what Kishi depicted. I don't even care about battle dome logic, as I am not even using it.

Notice Raikage in his clear mind set, was rallying the team to go after Sasuke.
Link removed

Add to the fact that Sasuke was holding back, and this becomes further evident.

The fact that Kishi brought others ninjas into the equations, the fact that Kishi rewarded Raikage's effort with a medic, and Sasuke with more opponents is what I am using to conclude this.

But I do admit Turrin I embellished a little and need to correct myself. In that fight, Raikage was clearly inferior. In that fight, Sasuke was clearly getting the better of the Raikage."





Does my post not reflect an adequate response to my post? If not why so? 








> I known what it was in response to, but I fail to see how you proved Raikage was in his normal state of mind. You just proved he cooled down a bit, nothing more and nothing less


Would you agree he was more rational, and more aware of his options?
Would you agree, that he was more patent in his continued assault against Sasuke? 

I would say.

He waited thoroughly for C to heal him, before continuing his assault. 

He wasn't so foolish is challenging Sasuke's second stage Susano. And coincidentally remember he had support.

I would say he was thinking more clearly than he was prior.  




> It doesn't matter if it would have been better defensively since Sasuke could have never won the battle through using Stage 2 Susano'o since he would have no way of landing an attack on Raikage. His best option was to use the Enton Shield and Mini-Susano'o combo, it had nothing to do with him holding back.


Never won the battle using second stage Susano? What proof did you utilize to support that claim?

But that is irrelevant, and straying away from the discussion, which seems to be your aim. My incorporation of stage 2, was merely to argue that Sasuke had a stronger defense in that final exchange and if he felt that Susano ribs + Enton Kasugtuchi was not adequate enough he could simply form a stronger defense.





> So you posted a scan of him saying "after him" with the only one beside him being C to prove that he was giving in battle tactical commands and fighting alongside Gaara, Kankuro, etc...


The panel does highlight who he is talking too. 

But we can utilize a little common sense now can we Turrin?

If he was specifically talking to C, why wouldn't he call his name.

That statement has exclamation points behind and indication it is exclamatory, which implies excitement. Thus it was something that could be heard by all, and without any specific names to specify the conversation to we can assume that he is talking to the entire shinobi body.

The fact that he emerged at the same time as everybody else
Link removed

Despite being much faster than everyone in that unit, further indicates that he had no intentions to pull off any solo acts.





> Simply put what your saying never happened in the manga. While Gaara and the others were engaging Sasuke, Raikage was off doing his own thing and never once did he work together with the Suna Shinobi.


Simply put it what I am saying is exactly implied by the manga, and can be deduced from the panels presented and logic. 

By doing his own thing you mean "Off getting healed" I agree, but that is irrelevant to my point.






> Raikage did a-lot of damage to Sasuke. Sasuke did more, but its not by such a huge margin that the battle wasn't even close.


Been their done this.

Losing an arm equates to a bruise? What ever you say Turrin.



> Here is my criteria
> 
> The Last time Sasuke countered R2 Raikage's attack, he stacked Enton and Susano'o, which heavily damages his eyes, body, and life span and he also received a good amount of damage from Raikage's attack.


Heavily damage is eyes? As you stated towards me, what manga evidence are you using to derive this? 

His eyes were fine during and after that battle. Thus is why your assessment is irrelevant. His life span is also an irrelevant factors especially given that it is Sasuke. None of those are immediate injuries, affecting Sasuke's ability to continue to fight. Those are just long term cost, as me listening to loud music through my I pod.

Wasn't it stated that using the Kyubi shortens Naruto's life span? But we have never used that as a merit against him.

Your whole argument is petty Turrin, and sounds like scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Especially given who Sasuke is. Affecting Sasuke's life span is as irrelevant, as the curse seal eating away your personality. It was an idea that was dropped for Sasuke out right.

And Sasuke never recieved any significant damage from Raikage's blow, there is no proof of it, and in fact the manga omits it outright. Blood is not a indication of serious injuries. And internal bleeding cannot be proven, and is rather extreme giving the area hit, and the fact Sasuke did not cough it up.

The difference between the injuries of Sasuke and the Raikage. Is that Sasuke could then go on and battle Danzo. "But Iphr0z3nI Sasuke had a chance to heal" two out of the three injuries you listed cannot be healed by a medic. Blindness/Shortening of life span did not affect his battle against Danzo shortly after, thus they are irrelevant. 

Raikage on the other hand injuries will always affect him. Sure one can adjust to having one arm, but that is the difference between Raikage and Sasuke's injuries. Raikage has to alter his previous approach to battle, as well as everyday life. You cannot tell me losing a arm isn't a life changing experience. Because what you are doing right now, is most efficient with two hands. 

The fact that Raikage is a primarily taijutsu fighter, who uses his arms to attack allot more than his legs; makes this injury even worse.







> So if history repeats, which it was going to since Sasuke once again was using Enton and Mini Susano'o to counter the attack, Sasuke would have been even more damaged after that exchange.


Listen to the statistics, instead trying to be a smart ass.

Raikage's success getting through Susano is only 50%

Sasuke has lowered down that statistic with the acquisition of Enton Kasagutchi.

But more damage in that exchange is irrelevant. Because if in fact if history does repeat itself wouldn't, Sasuke still be able to walk away and continue fighting? That two is apart of history Mr. genius. Nice try, but I am better. 



> Pretty simple
> 
> 
> Raikage asked Gaara *his reasoning* for stopping his attack, part of Gaara's *response* was that he wanted to talk with Sasuke.


Raikage asked Gaara's reason for interfering, the term could be related to the fight, or Gara's present in the affair in general. He had no reason to leave the summit, as he had no personal Beef with Sasuke. 

As I stated before what was his reasons for leaving the summit. 

Once again I am better. 



> IF Sasuke was going to be perfectly fine after the leg drop, than why would Gaara need to stop the attack just to talk to him? Why couldn't Gaara talk to him after the attack had gone through?


It doesn't implicate he needed to stop the attack to talk to him, you are trying to implicate that. Talking to Sasuke, was the reason Gara left in the first place. As I stated before he did not have the knowledge to assess any of the fighters capabilities. Nor was he aware of the outcome. 

Considering his response to Sasuke, was to go back to the way he was. He had every reasons to stop that attack before talking to Sasuke. 
Link removed


Would Gara's words even makes sense if he the Raikage was critically injured or worse in that exchange.

Your interpretation doesn't make sense, it didn't make sense when the troll who created it spewed it out, and I am surprise someone with your history would rely on such a statement. But of course you are desperate right now. Thus is why you are just searching for anything right about now to back up your claim.

Why is it I must work hard to reach that conclusion for Sasuke, but not about the Raikage? 

You know their is a saying the most simplest explanation is often the right one. And I am simply going to take Kishi/Gara by his word "I want to talk to Sasuke" means just that "I want to talk to Sasuke".

If you can agree that Gara left the summit to talk to Sasuke. Then response to Raikage is simply, the truth with no meaning as you are trying to impose.  






> You believe Sasuke could have used Stage 2 Susano'o to defend Raikage's attacks at any point if he wanted to correct? If thats the case, than when Raikage used Leg Drop, Sasuke could have used Susano'o Stage 2 defend, right?
> 
> 
> If he had the choice and picked Mini-Susano'o + Enton, than he was indeed choosing to take Raikage's attack in order to land one of his own.


It's not about taking ones attack. Sasuke was seeking to utilize the same tactic as before. 

Link removed

Amaterasu was still surrounding Susano good sir. Their was not need to utilize Enton Kasagutchi if he simply intended on trading blows.

Sasuke was likely looking to kill the Raikage, if give Susano further support with Kasagutchi. 

Sasuke is very good about making adjustments, even you must admit that Turrin, do you think he would rely on on the exact same tactic twice? Chances on those spikes was formed for a reason, and I certainly believe Sasuke, was confident his his answer to the leg drop. Thus is why he opted to use Kasutsuchi instead of the  stronger second tier Susano.






> So why exactly are you ignoring all the self imposed damage that Sasuke caused himself in his battle with Raikage? Like Damaging his eyes, body, and life span with MS spamming?


I am not ignoring, I merely called it irrelevant. Those so called self imposed damage never altered Sasuke future abilites in that fight, nor in the following fight. 

I am ignoring it because they are not immediate injuries.

I am ignoring it because one of them, will never be relevant for a main character.(shortening of life)

I am ignoring them because they seem like scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I am ignoring them because it is not a factor used to judge any of the fights.

Does Sasuke indicate shown signs of loss in eyesight post that battle? 

Does Kishi even indicate that it deteriorated?

The loss of an arm is the opposite of all of the above. It is immediate, it's affects in the short as well as long run. And wasn't worth it.

Raikage traded his arm for a blow, whose effects was erased the next chapter.

Link removed 

You want me to believe that they were equals, if their wounds wasn't even in the same stratosphere. Raikage didn't even get a full fight against Sasuke and suffered a very significant injury.

Deep down you know this to be true, thus is why you argue you scrap the bottom of the barrel for more.





> Yes and thats more damage than what Sasuke accomplished with Chidori.


No it wasn't thus is why they are treated the same way. Raikage's wounds to Sasuke are erased.

and Sasuke's chidori wound to Raikage is.............................

Link removed
Link removed

Wait a minute that shit is still there







> There are major arteries in the neck the: Carotid Arteries.


And if they were ruptured, wouldn't the bleeding be a constant thing?

Would Sasuke be able to continue battle?



> But overall I don't care what is causing him to blood to poor from his mouth. All I care about is the fact that the attack clearly did more damage than Sasuke's Chidori.


Because it was a silly point to begin with. 

You have no argument. The attack clearly did not do anything, as you having to judge it by. Both produce blood so the point is mute. Both left marks(Raikage's still being there ), so apparent from Sasuke flying back their effects are identical. 

You have lost this argument Turrin, your response of "Because it did" does not cut it.




> Sasuke was also given Chakra by Zetsu, healed by Karin, and had some downtime between fights. If Sasuke wasn't in horrible condition he wouldn't have been so useless against Mei and Onoki


Sasuke had chakara after battling the Raikage. Gara and the gange, Mifune, Mizukage, and the skirmish with the samurai's at the start contributed to that.

So he was healed by Karin and had downtime immediately after the Raikage fight. I'm pretty sure Gara started attacking the minute is 30 second conversation was over(how long do you think he took to deliver that statement).

He was out of chakara first and foremost and was hurting from Susano.
Link removed

Link removed

The continued attack from the rest of the Kage's + rest of the summit contributed to one or the other, and some both.

Turrin I expect a person with your experience to not be so desperate. I should not have to point out the continued assistance of the summit. You knew this, before I even whipped up the chapter.

Sasuke still had all this post the raikage battle. Gara + Mizukage's + others ALONG with the Raikage is what brought him into that state.

The battle was the Summit's victory, not the Raikage's.




> The fact that a lesser attack from R2 Raikage did damage to Sasuke through the same exact defense, is proof enough for any anyone to come to this conclusion


What does that have to do with this?


"Sasuke wasn't exhausted, thus is why he gave us an encore presentation."




> So you think 100% Sasuke would perform that badly against the Kages, man you must think he is incredible weak.


We are referring immediatly after the raikage battle. Stop trying to behave like a troll Turrin just because you are losing an argument.

Sasuke wasn't exhausted prior to his skirmish against Gara.






> Sasuke stayed in the ring, but would have died because of it. Raikage went to the doctor and survived. Sasuke should have done the same.


But my friend, but the combine efforts of many additional efforts. Sasuke could have fled the summit after he fended off Gara's attack, and would have been A OK.

Sasuke didn't have too IMMEDIATELY AFTER his battle with Raikage.






> Its fanfiction that Sasuke used Mini-Susano'o and Enton to counter Raikage's attack. Lets ask the author:
> 
> Karin: _(Brilliant!! A shield of black flames! // The Raikage's Shunshin speed is on a whole different level! Since he can't keep up with it with his eyes, he instead creates a shield that cannot be touched! That should stop him from being able to attack Sasuke carelessly!)_


I didn't say he countered it.[/QUOTE]
I never stated it was to counter his attack. I said it was to counter his boost in speed. Listen to Karin statement that you save me the time in linking.

Since he couldn't see the Raikage, much less match him, he created a tactic in which Raikage couldn't attack. The only failure in the maneuver, is that he did, but that's when the second function kicked in. 






> Its funny how hypocritical this is.


How so? The Raikage being injured in that exchange is confirmed. Raikage losing a limb from the previous time Sasuke landed Amaterasu equal lose of a limb, so it could be assumed that what ever body part touched Amaterasu would have been loss as well. The fact that Raikage's leg/lower half was about to hit Amaterasu confirms this.

If Raikage's lower leg/mid section was caught on fire. How is he supposed to continue the fight?

Notice how I applied common sense, and more importantly previous showings to discuss my point.

Something you and others have failed to do.




> So to you Sasuke having caused permanent damage to his eyes, shortened his life span, and also having accumulated several wounds, came out of things A OK lol. This is just getting ridiculous.


Proof that Sasuke eye sight was diminished immediately after that exchange?
Life span is pointless, and irrelevant it has no immediate consequence, and none we will ever see anyway.

What are these several wounds? Please describe them? 

How does one receive several wounds from being hit one time, in a selected area?

Does the several wounds have any obvious effects of Sasuke? They must not because they were erased the next chapter. 

Now I am certain you are desperate.  






> The Blood indicates the eyes being damaged, I could ask a 4 year old to read the manga and they would know that.


Proof.

Because the 4 year old wouldn't know that eye bleeding, is the signature sign of Amaterasu.

Nothing indicates it to be more, you are desperate and I will no longer continue to argue with someone who is scraping the bottom of the barrel 



> Aside from that, why does it even matter? My point is that he was damaging his eyes.


Proof? Their was no indication that Sasuke's eyes sight was in less post Raikage than before. This is something you scrapped up, to find something positive to give Raikage. 




> Sasuke did absolutely nothing to Gaara. He would have died against Mei and Onoki if not for Zetsu/Madara. So no he was not able to combat any Kages effectively after his duel with Raikage.


And Garra did absolutely nothing to him. Considering Gara initiated the attack, I would say he was the aggressor not Sasuke.

He would have died against Mei and Onoki, and he wasn't able to battle those battles effectively, for the do to the several battles before arriving INCLUDING THE RAIKAGE, including the samuri, including Gara's sqaud, including Mifune. 

I'm sure Sasuke's attention wasn't focused on offing any of the Kage's once Karin got Danzo's location, thus is why he was gunning directly for him.

After Mizukage sealed the exist, Sasuke focus simply shifted to survival, and when Zetsu gave him chakara to GTFO.

Sasuke could have easily Amaterasued Mei, when Zetsu supplied him with chakara, but he simply headed from the nearest exist. 

Danzo left the building so Sasuke was going to opt to do the same.  





> If your going to pretend that Raikage did absolutely nothing to Sasuke and that the battle wasn't even close despite the fact that Sasuke had to intentionally take one of Raikage's strongest attacks just to have a chance at defeating him, than I'm done here.


You were done here the minute you started scraping the bottom of the barrel. Please stop replying because this is embarrassing. 

Sasuke never intentionally took anything, Raikage gave him much of a choice.


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## silenceofthelambs (Mar 16, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> That panel disagrees with you saying that Amaterasu was gonna burn his handsome face
> Ans also had he attempted the leg drop chances are high that Amaterasu could spread to other parts of his body thereby killing him .
> I agree that Sasuke may be killed in the process too.
> 
> No .infact I am a Sasuke hater



You seem not to understand. I'll number the courses of action taken by A and Sasuke, and tell you their effects.

1. Raikage breaks through Amaterasu and Susanoo 1.0 barrier, bitchslaps the Sauce who has no idea what just happened.
2. *Amaterasu's flames, however, are all over the lower part of A's arm as a result of this attack*. <---- [IMPORTANT]
3. Raikage declares that Sasuke is at the end of the line, and prepares to smash his face in with a fatal leg drop.
4. Sasuke utilizes Amaterasu once more to stop the Raikage's attack, but before A can deliver the killing blow, Gaara intervenes.

Now, those were the steps executed by A and Sasuke during their fight. Let's examine them to determine what the possible effects may be.

Firstly, answer these questions for me:
1. Amaterasu is by no means a solid, so Raikage's attack would actually connect, correct?
2. We've already seen A's immense tolerance to pain; it is true that he can fight without an arm, yes? How much more injury is he capable of sustaining?
3. When A delivered a blow to Sasuke's head, thereby coming into contact with Amaterasu's black flames, *did the flames spread to other parts of his body*?

Just want to make sure we're on the same page. Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but they are meant to illustrate your fallacious assumption that Amaterasu would spread to other parts of the Raikage's body when we've already seen, canonically, that this isn't the case. Why would the leg drop cause Amaterasu to spread over parts of A's body when that vicious blow with the hand executed by him did no such thing?

Notice how I placed the second statement in bold face. Let me ask you another question pertaining to that bold text.

1. Let's take a hypothetical situation; the Raikage's arm is covered in flames, yet it still remains attached to his body. If he were to attack Sasuke in this identical fashion one more time, *his arm coated in Amaterasu*, would you expect some of those black flames to transfer over to Sasuke?
2. If you answered yes, then why can this not be the same for the leg drop, which would also be covered in Amaterasu's flames? If you answered no, at the very least would it cause Sasuke second or third degree burns, just from his skin touching Amaterasu?
3. If you answered "yes" to the second part of the second question, where you answered no to the first, can we agree that A's, either leg or arm, would cause added damage when combined with searing Amaterasu flames?
4. If you answered "no" to the third question, quantify your reasoning.

The questions, I believe, have made my point. But the assumption you have made, I would like to reiterate, that the flames would somehow "spread" to other parts of the Raikage's body is wild speculation with absolutely no supporting evidence from the manga. The fact that you stated the chances of this happening are high undermines your claim even further. All you have are mere assertions, undeveloped and crippled due to lack of evidence. Assertions that are themselves nothing more than rationalizations, or as we might call them "damage control."

I should think to mention Gaara's intervention in the fight as well. After sand safely deflected A's final blow, Raikage questioned Gaara's reasons for interfering and stopping his attack. Part of Gaara's response was that he wished to talk to Sasuke, in hopes of getting through to him. Now, if Sasuke was going to remain uninjured after A's attack, then for what prupose would Gaara halt the forceful blow just to exchange a few words with him? He could have waited until A and Sasuke duked it out till the end, then proceeded to talk to Sasuke. But he didn't. Why?


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 16, 2011)

*IpHr0z3nI*, i gotta admit that you repeating the same crap over and over again has a plus.. i almost don't need to add anything new since i can just quote myself from the previous times i argued those same points 

1. A was match for Sascake as he would've finished Sascake if not for Gaara.But this was already addressed in Forlong and silence's latest posts so i don't need to go any further into it.



> the fact that Kishi rewarded Raikage's effort with a medic,





> *Using the fact that Sascake didn't receive medical help while at the same time A did?OH.MY.GOD. Gaara, A and co would just sit back and tell Sascake and Karin to take their time, right?
> 
> And considering what happened like a minute later, Sascake damn sure could've used Karin.A on the other hand () would not fall on his knees, crying like a pussy about how much pain he is in.
> *






> and Sasuke with more opponents is what I am using to conclude this.




Let me use the Bee example against you 


Sascake needed to receive medical attention against Bee while Bee had to pwn Suigetsu and Sascake and co tried to run away from him.This means Sascake stood no chance?This means he couldn't have done shit to Bee?Oh wait..


As i stated before Sascake had a minute left and A can outlast Susano.






> Been their done this.
> 
> Losing an arm equates to a bruise? What ever you say Turrin.




Been there done that myself and you provided *ABSOLUTE ZERO PROOF FOR THE OPPOSITE!*



			
				narutotantaratard said:
			
		

> Link removed
> 
> A-"HMPH"
> 
> ...







> Raikage on the other hand injuries will always affect him. Sure one can adjust to having one arm, but that is the difference between Raikage and Sasuke's injuries. Raikage has to alter his previous approach to battle, as well as everyday life. You cannot tell me losing a arm isn't a life changing experience. Because what you are doing right now, is most efficient with two hands.
> 
> The fact that Raikage is a primarily taijutsu fighter, who uses his arms to attack allot more than his legs; makes this injury even worse.




As pointed out like a zillion times before if it was such a big deal, A could have easily replaced it.





> Once again I am better.



Please stop embarrassing yourself 


Whatever Gaara wanting to talk with Sascake was the reason he came down there in the first place is irrelevant.How in the blue hell does it disapprove a god damn thing? 


Let me give you an example:


Link removed

Link removed

Naruto:

"Kakashi sensei are you gonna kill Sascake?"

Kakashi:

"Leave!" -and look at Naru's face expression during this.They tell all that needs to be told!

*Naruto stops Kakashi*



> As I stated before he did not have the knowledge to assess any of the fighters capabilities. Nor was he aware of the outcome.



As i mentioned before Gaara witnessed A's strength and how easy he broke Zetsu's neck.

Gaara didn't know much about Sascake's strength at that point and neither did Naru.

Naruto didn't know the conditions of the fight either yet he thinks Kakashi can kill Sascake.

The reason he came there in the first place was to talk with Sascake.





> Your interpretation doesn't make sense, it didn't make sense when the troll who created it spewed it out, and I am surprise someone with your history would rely on such a statement.



*My god, don't you realize you are digging your own grave?*



*Spoiler*: __ 



Every frigging time you accused *me* of something like: going off topic, ignoring manga evidence, noit addressing your points and trying to derail from the topic at hand i called you on the ton of times you did the same fucking thing and not just here!But ill just limit myself to the trolling you've done here:

1. You state that Sascake's Susano is stronger than A like it means a god damn thing.

-I say that its irrelevant, that you don't need to be stronger than certain jutsu to defeat the person using it and A can simply out last it 

-You say he can't.

-I prove you wrong and than instead of you addressing my points you say im off topic 


2. You state that nothing suggest Sascake was harmed in his fight with Bee.

-I provide you with Mei's statement.

-Instead of admitting that you were wrong you go on to say that A was not the solely responsible and list the people who also had finger in it.And later you say that im the one derailing from the topic and the argument is not about Sascake vs The Kage summit but A vs Sascake.

3. You state that whatever damage Sascake received pales in comparison to the damage A got.

-I remind you that A wouldn't have gotten killed because of the damage he received unlike Sascake who surely would be dead right now if not for Zetsu and Faildara. 

-You tried to switch the argument to whatever the help Sascake had was justified or not 

4.



There is more but that's enough for now.






> The loss of an arm is the opposite of all of the above. It is immediate, it's affects in the short as well as long run. And wasn't worth it.



How many times are you gonna repeat essentially the same crap in a single post?

NOBODY FUCKING CARES ABOUT A'S ARM!You honestly can't be that desperate.

If it was such a big deal A wouldn't have disposed of it so casually.If it was such a big deal he would've found a FUCKING REPLACEMENT BY NOW!

As for Sascake..


Using his main character status as an excuse?Talk about desperate.. 

Every time u use MS techniques you are damaging your eye sight.What manga are you fucking reading?


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2011)

*@IpHr0z3nI*
I don't have it in me to respond to such a large post again when I'm going to get the same answers from you over and over again. However I do find it funny that you just ignore Manga Cannon that states Susano'o shaves the users life away and using MS in general shaves the users eyesight away. Sasuke used 4 MS Techniques against Bee and was already having vision issues. He used 4 MS Techniques against Raikage [one of them for an extended period of time], obviously this would cause further damage as per what Itachi, the author, and prior showings in the manga have indicated. 

I also find it funny that your arguing the blood is a signature to Amaterasu and has nothing to do with his eyes being damaged. The reason the blood is a signature is because its caused by the great strain that Amaterasu puts on the users eyes. Like I said before even a 4 year old could tell that something bleeding = that area being injured/damages in some fashion. 

Your in such denial that your acting like people bleeding massive amounts of blood out of their eyes is no big deal. When your able to admit that Sasuke did indeed damages his eyes and life span during his fight with Raikage as per what the DB and Managa state, than maybe we can come back to this debate at some future time.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 16, 2011)

Forlong said:


> Dude, the reason we say you're bias is because you apply certain rules to everyone in the manga _but_ Sasuke.
> 
> "Sasuke took A's arm, that means he won."
> Does that apply to when Gaara took Deidara's arm?  When Fuu and Tirune took Madara's?
> ...



Cheers to this post


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## DremolitoX (Mar 16, 2011)

I think Iphroseni is arguing this strongly in favor of sasuke because he's still butthurt about the fact that cripple Nagato would stomp him.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 16, 2011)

I thought the library was going to change since Hiro came back and she wanted to enforce new rules. I see old habits die hard, same shit, different day. Y'all keep on trolling, the rest of us will enjoy


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## supersaiyan146 (Mar 16, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> You seem not to understand. I'll number the courses of action taken by A and Sasuke, and tell you their effects.
> 
> 1. Raikage breaks through Amaterasu and Susanoo 1.0 barrier, bitchslaps the Sauce who has no idea what just happened.
> 2. *Amaterasu's flames, however, are all over the lower part of A's arm as a result of this attack*. <---- [IMPORTANT]
> ...



tl;dr .. 

Dude you could've easily replied to my post in 3 lines instead of posting all these redundant BS 

My points :

*Spoiler*: __ 








1) Raikage punched through the Susanoo coated with Amaterasu . (Result : His hand was covered with Amaterasu flames . *Only his hand and it did not spread quickly enough* )
2) Sasuke got owned and fell on his back . ( But he was not affected at all inspite of being with contact with the flames )


3) Raikage attempts the leg drop . There you can clearly see the surface area of the Enton compared to Raikage's leg . Had Gaara not interrupted , Raikage's entire body below hos waist would've been caught in the flames ( The fuck..his privates would've been on fire) and Sasuke would've been most probably killed by the impact .
Now I don't really know how Raikage will be able to deal with that damage .

Amaterasu isn't doing shit to Sasuke . 

I agree that I may have been wrong about the flames spreading to other parts of his body quickly enough before raikage can take care of it .


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## principito (Mar 16, 2011)

Sasuke tried to fight Raikage... he brought all his big guns and so did Raikage...

Raikage lost one arm and got aid to stop the bleeding (prolly could've done that himself or not), Sasuke got his ass handed to him with a couple of moves from Raikage and used his ultimate weapon susano'o as a last resort to save himself. All his other attacks worked shit on Raikage

In the end the fight ended there but Raikage looked in a much better shape to continue the fight than Sasuke. I don't see how could we appreciate this in any different way


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## BrickStyle (Mar 16, 2011)

Raikage would just call his brotherhood of G's, and they would double glock sauce to death.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 16, 2011)

Forlong said:


> Dude, the reason we say you're bias is because you apply certain rules to everyone in the manga _but_ Sasuke.


How so? Please give details.



> "Sasuke took A's arm, that means he won."
> Does that apply to when Gaara took Deidara's arm?  When Fuu and Tirune took Madara's?


It's not just him taking him arm. Deidara/Gara actually finished their battle, so did Madara vs. Fuu Tirune. 

Automatically your point fails, with just that extra details. 



> "Sasuke did more damage, so he won."
> Does that apply to Naruto when he fought Orochimaru?  When Deidara fought Sasuke?


Because damage is the only assessment we have. The fight was interrupted was it not? Much like your high school fights are decided, much like boxing fights are decided.

Sasuke landed more blows, and dealt more damage. Even Kishi didn't even hint on him winning if the fight had continued is the reason why Sasuke won.

Raikage got trolled, and if he had a bigger fanbase they would be angry at his treatment. The only reason why people are patting his back and screaming good job, because he actually manage to give them fuel to diminish Sasuke, no matter how petty it is, no matter how insignificant it was. 




> The first attack did no damage because of the Susano'o.
> Link removed
> However, you can see that it damaged the Susano'o as well.


Exactly



> The second attack worked somewhat.  It didn't kill Sasuke, but it broke his defense and damaged him in some way.
> Link removed


It not only didn't kill him, it failed to even hinder him. It was a blow that amounted to nothing. Look at Sasuke's entrance to the summit, and see if they are still their.

It's like me playing against you in madden and beating you 56-0 and we play again and I beat you 56-7.

Sure you made progress, but you were still not even close to producing the desired results of winning are you? 

You have failed to prove that Raikage's blow amounted to anything but aesthetic injuries.

How is Raikage's blow any more damage than Sasuke's chidori which produce the same thing? 

Internal bleeding, is cannot be proven. In fact it is damn well disproven as Sasuke never coughed it up, as Sasuke doesn't seem to be profusely bleeding. 

Sure it looked more painful, but looks can be deceiving, and doesn't attest to truth of the injuries. 






> So it makes perfect sense to assume that an attack aimed at the opening he made would do more damage.  The Amaterasu already showed that it could do absolutely nothing and this BS about Sasuke keeping Stage 2 in his back pocket, DBZ style, is just ludicrous.  If he could do that, why didn't he bring it out and destroy the pillars right away rather than listen to Gaara talk?


What opening Forlong? Haven't I already address this shit before?

At least it looked like this
At least it looked like this
At least it looked like this

What opening?

You do not that the bones are not just protecting Sasuke right, but the entire Aura is?

Thus is how Sasuke blocked Mizukage's mist/liguid attack?

Which would have certainly seeped through the cracks had the entire Aura not just the bones protected him. 

So again what opening? 

Did you just create this idea in your head, without looking at the manga as usual. 

Amaterasu that was not good sir. That was Enton Kagutsuchi, whose details we have no info about. Amaterasu was already on Susano, if Sasuke intended to merely pull the same stunt as before that would be no reason for him to counter with Enton Kagutsuchi.

He had it before the summit this is Kishi not me.

At least it looked like this
At least it looked like this

Sasuke: There is something I want to try out.

Jugo: Is this the technique Sasuke wanted try out.

Manga evidence that disproves your point.





> But the rules of logic don't apply to Sasuke, because that's not bias.
> 
> 
> Link removed
> The manga disagrees.


Wasn't that because of his eyes? Did Sasuke have that problem in his fight with the Raikage? So isn't your point irrelevant.



> Be sure to tell that to everyone that has ever vomited blood.


Sasuke *VOMITED* blood? I've seen to have missed that page.





> Also, if Sasuke coughing up blood isn't serious because he could keep fighting, the same applies to A!  Oh, sorry, applying those rules to A is bias.  We have to hold Sasuke to a lower standard than everyone else, because that's fair.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Skywalker (Mar 16, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> I thought the library was going to change since Hiro came back and she wanted to enforce new rules. I see old habits die hard, same shit, different day. Y'all keep on trolling, the rest of us will enjoy


Did you honestly think this section would change? It's already been tainted, it's going to stay that way.


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## Yakkai (Mar 16, 2011)

Raikage has, with Bee, inserted much needed manliness into this limp wristed emo manga. For that, he can do no wrong. His sheer manliness overpowers lesser characters with better jutsu arsenals.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 16, 2011)

Turrin said:


> *@IpHr0z3nI*
> I don't have it in me to respond to such a large post again when I'm going to get the same answers from you over and over again. However I do find it funny that you just ignore Manga Cannon that states Susano'o shaves the users life away and using MS in general shaves the users eyesight away. Sasuke used 4 MS Techniques against Bee and was already having vision issues. He used 4 MS Techniques against Raikage [one of them for an extended period of time], obviously this would cause further damage as per what Itachi, the author, and prior showings in the manga have indicated.


It was confirmed that MS in general shaves Sasuke's eye sight. But you failed to prove that Sasuke's eye sight was any different per and post Raikage. 

Your argument essentially is trying to give sole credit to the Raikage, for something achieved by multiple individuals.

Sasuke's deteriorating eye sight started the minute he gained the MS, thus even before the Raikage Sasuke's eye sight were already diminishing.

However the deterioration in his eyes may not be proportionate. 

Turrin he used 3 MS techs, at the rest of the summit, including A BIGGER SUSANO. And judging from Madara's comment.
At least it looked like this

Susano could be assumed to biggest contributor to blindness.

Who did he use the bigger Susano against?

He used Susano far longer against the Gara + Mei than vs. Raikage.

The Raikage vs. Sasuke fight was not that long, and Sasuke only brought about Susano the last portion of the fight. 

This is the flaw of you bringing this into the argument. As multiple people force Sasuke to use MS, as multple people force Sasuke to use chakara.

Raikage's cannot take sole credit for the "conditional" arguments you are presenting is the problem. Sasuke after his battle with Raikage, was still in good shape. 

His eye sight was noted to have deminished, and his chakara reserves/health was still intact. It wasn't until the the others continuing to press Sasuke that he showed signs of Wear and Tear as you are arguing.

The problem is I think people are overlooking how long the Raikage vs. Sasuke battle was. And how much Sasuke was able to pull post the Raikage battle.

Amaterasu against Raikage was the lost time Sasuke ever took the offense. 

Sasuke used Amatearsu vs. Susano as a defensive maneuver first. 

Enton Kasgutchi could be argued as both.

The enton/Amatearsu against Gara was for defense

The Susano was for defense

The chidori through Sasuke sword against Mifune was defense.

Susano agaisnt Mizukage defense.

Sasuke was placed on the defense at the end of the end of the Raikage battle, and maintained that position for the rest of the summit.

After all what was his purpose for coming to the summit? Was it to kill Kage's?

The databook states that Susano affects his life force. 

Many individuals have forced him to use Susano, so I guess they are all just on the same level as Raikage?

Is this manga going to last long enough for us to see, the affects of Raikage's and OTHERS hard work?

Sasuke in 80 years: Damn it if not for the Raikage forcing me to use Susano some 64 years ago, I would have survived to reach 82. 





> I also find it funny that your arguing the blood is a signature to Amaterasu and has nothing to do with his eyes being damaged. The reason the blood is a signature is because its caused by the great strain that Amaterasu puts on the users eyes. Like I said before even a 4 year old could tell that something bleeding = that area being injured/damages in some fashion.


It doesn't, as the manga doesn't provide a detail explanation of the bleeding. And considering that all MS jutsu damages the eye, but all MS jutsu does not force the eye to bleed. The only logical argument for this is simply an aesthetic signature.
At least it looked like this
Turrin if you can agree that all MS jutsu causes damage to the eye. 

Turrin if you can agree that all MS jutsu does not call bleeding.

Then you must agree that.

That eye bleeding is Aesthetic because it isn't required, as we know that all MS jutsu causes blindness.

You are trying to give it meaning, when you have no foundation to do so.
You are trying to give it meaning, when their is no reason to do so.

We know that Sasuke's eye descends into blindness with each use. The reason why I dismissed it because it because Sasuke shows no signs of discomfort before using them and after. 

Yes Turrin this does not prove they are there, and I agree with you they probably were. But the reason why I say they are irrelevant, is it doesn't affect Sasuke ability to battle. 

It an injury that is not immediate, and in fact a injury that would take several more exposure to take effect. That is like trying to blame a decrease in vision, on one experience sitting too close to the TV.

Raikage cannot get sole credit, for the consequences to Sasuke. As it requires several doses, Sasuke would have to fight several other opponents, use the same taxing jutsu on many other occasions. 







> Your in such denial that your acting like people bleeding massive amounts of blood out of their eyes is no big deal. When your able to admit that Sasuke did indeed damages his eyes and life span during his fight with Raikage as per what the DB and Managa state, than maybe we can come back to this debate at some future time.


I am in denial? More like you are trying to embellish shit, as always. He was bleeding from his eyes because that is the requirement from Susano.

Blood does not indicate that a wound = serious. Blood from his eye is entirely from the usage of Amaterasu. I came it wasn't big deal, because Kishi treats it as not a big deal. When Sasuke bleeds from the eye, no oohs and awws are made. When Sasuke bleeds from the eye, the fight doesn't stop. When Sasuke bleeds from the eye, his battle tactic does not change from before.

It is no big deal, just like the blood on Raikage's chest. Just like the blood on on Sasuke's mouth and eye.

I never said he didn't only it is irrelevant, learn the difference Turrin.

You don't need to comeback to this debate their is nothing to debate about about.

Answer this question. Is their any indication of deterioration between of Sasuke before his battle with Raikage, and *immediately *after?

That means before fending off Gara's group?

The injuries you argue cannot be healed thus, thus time and recovery does not matter. Did they affect him in his battle with Danzo?

You are arguing the loss of a limb, to something that requires years and years and continuous replication to take effect.

And you wounder why I claim the fight between Raikage and Sasuke was one sided?


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## BrickStyle (Mar 16, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> Overrated?
> 
> Pain is overrated, A is just a beast.



Hell Yea !


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 16, 2011)

BrickStyle said:


> Raikage would just call his brotherhood of G's, and they would double glock sauce to death.



Word homie, WORD


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 16, 2011)

> Or my favorite? You are biased. An argument that is always pulled out by someone who is losing an argument.



You mean like you when you told me i was butthurt because Naruto lost after your embarrassing defeat when i pointed out that "12=12" 



> The sad part is you knew I was a Sasuke fan from jump, yet you proceeded to try to argue your points anyway.



Funny thing is you called Forlong bias before.You told me that im always ignoring manga evidence and derailing from the topic before (i exposed your hypocrisy every time but that's irrelevant. ).Yet you proceeded to argue with me and him anyway?




> The response are not even being posted to prove me wrong anymore, as you cannot prove someone wrong using the same points they are refuted or embellishing the irrelevant, or down right ignoring the manga.



Oh the fucking irony  



> Instead the responses is often to save face. If you look at my post. The same 75% tired arguments in the current page is the same 75% pulled in the start of the discussion.




Funny im repeating the same points i had since the start which you completely failed to counter, ignored or just tried to turn the argument in a different direction.

I'll keep bringing them up when you keep repeating the same ~snip~arguments already crushed by me time ago 




> You are trying to give it meaning, when you have no foundation to do so.
> You are trying to give it meaning, when their is no reason to do so.



A's left arm says hi 



> It's not just him taking him arm. Deidara/Gara actually finished their battle, so did Madara vs. Fuu Tirune.
> 
> Automatically your point fails, with just that extra details.



Actually your points automatically fail.In case you forgot need i remind you that you used the fact that A needed to stop the bleeding as prove the injury was serious.Did Dei need to recieve such a quick intervention?Is he more durable than A?



> Gaara died imagine that. Gara did not also get up and continue fighting other Akatsuki members. Please get the fuck out with these ridiculous arguments.




And Dei didn't need to receive an almost immediate medical attention and continued fighting.Point?



> How serious must they be, if Sasuke could still fight as effectively after, as before. *Howe serious must they be, if Kishi gives no mind to them.*



Kishi gives no mind to A's arm either but lets just ignore that show we?





> Some of you even go as far as to down play it? Oh Raikage didn't care. A stupid argument. Would you care if you loss an arm? I'm pretty sure you would.




Stupid argument?Because you have absolutely zero way of countering it?Would i care if i lost an arm?No ill be pretty busy shooting fireballs.. oh wait.. we are talking *real life*   :rofl 

Im sure in real life those who care about loosing their arms chop them off while going "HMPH"?No?You have no argument whatsofuckingever!

Im still waiting for the proof that A cared!Where is it?WHERE IN THE BLUE HELL IS IT?WHY HASN'T HE REPLACED HIS FUCKING ARM IF HE ACTUALLY GIVES A CRAP?



> It is no big deal, just like the blood on Raikage's chest. Just like the blood on on Sasuke's mouth and eye.



Raikage's left arm is no frigging big deal


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## Oldy (Mar 16, 2011)

'Tis but a scratch.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 16, 2011)

anyone who thinks that the raikage would not have died against the amaterasu if gaara had not stopped the fight is fucking biased .


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 16, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> You mean like you when you told me i was butthurt because Naruto lost after your embarrassing defeat when i pointed out that "12=12"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've called him biased, just like I called you. But never once have I used it as a reason to descredit your post have I?


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## TheWon (Mar 16, 2011)

The Raikage has one thing going for him that most in the manga haven't shown at all. A real killer instinct. With his speed and strength he is going to come at you 112%! Until you kill him or he kills you! None of this feeling the opponent out that everyone seems to do when fighting. The Raikage is going to hit you hard and fast from the jump! Not everyone has a full body chakra shield to protect them.
There has to be something to him to still be alive. All the other so called great ninjas all seem to be dead!


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2011)

*IpHr0z3nI*
Your entire argument is based around belittling the damage that Raikage caused Sasuke based on the fact that Sasuke didn't care or that Sasuke could still fight, the same can be done in the case of the injuries Sasuke caused to Raikage. Raikage didn't give a shit he lost an arm and he could still fight on as well. 

I agree with what others are saying, your argument just sounds bias, considering your applying a standard to Sasuke, that your not applying to Raikage. I don't really know what to say beyond that since its impossible to debate with some one who using such a double standard to evaluate the battle.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 16, 2011)

> *Raikage's left arm is no frigging big deal*



And this is what that ~snip~ fails to understand. I just gave up trying to make 'em get it. So should you


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## TheUnkow (Mar 16, 2011)

Fact is HE IS VERY STRONG.

If Killerbee was to go mad and lose its control over the biju then who was going to be there to guarantee harm would not come to anyone in the village?
With reflexes on par with the forth and to almost escape one of the 3 best eyesights in the world ... It speaks for itself, we don't have to write or read how badass that is.

On the other hand I remember Nagato destroying almost whole of Konoha with one Shinra Tensei and Onoki being stopped by Akatsuchi just before blowing the whole giant turtle island.

So my point is they're all strong and have certain powers that are advantageous against someone but disadvantageous against someone else.


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## Z (Mar 16, 2011)

A isn't overrated at all


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 16, 2011)

Turrin said:


> *IpHr0z3nI*
> Your entire argument is based around belittling the damage that Raikage caused Sasuke based on the fact that Sasuke didn't care or that Sasuke could still fight, the same can be done in the case of the injuries Sasuke caused to Raikage. Raikage didn't give a shit he lost an arm and he could still fight on as well.


Your entire argument is based on overhyping the damage. It is a two way street. You are ignoring my points, as I already proven how silly your petty arguments are. 

The argument is never simply Sasuke doesn't care, it's the fact that Sasuke is not immediately affected by them, and they do not alter his approach/capabilities in battle. Meaning Sasuke could fight just as efficiently post Raikage battle, as he could pre.


Raikage was affected by his injuries immediately, and had to stop to be patch up. Also I dare you to say that he would be just as efficient post as he was pre. I dare you to argue that the loss of an arm would not alter his approach to battle.

With one arm, could he pull all the moves he did in that fight? If your answer is no, then we have nothing to talk about. 





> If
> 
> I agree with what others are saying, your argument just sounds bias, considering your applying a standard to Sasuke, that your not applying to Raikage. I don't really know what to say beyond that since its impossible to debate with some one who using such a double standard to evaluate the battle.



No one is applying standards good sir. The same standards could be set for Sasuke. Learn to understand my points, and you would see why Raikage's injuries are much, much worse than Sasuke.

His injury affects his future fights, Sasuke's did not.

His injury forces him to alter his approach to battle(He cannot pull off all the moves he did in that battle)

Sasuke's does not.

You are and others are ignoring my points all together, due to laziness or inability to counter. I would argue the later.


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## Forlong (Mar 17, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> It's not just him taking him arm. Deidara/Gara actually finished their battle, so did Madara vs. Fuu Tirune.


Which is why A losing an arm is completely irrelevant.  How a victor in a fight is ascertained is if the other gives up or is unable to continue fighting.  _Neither_ A or Sasuke were unable to fight, so there was no real victor.  Deidara and Gaara's fight proves that the loss of a limb is hardly capable of telling us who would have won.  If you want to be technical, A won because Sasuke retreated.  However, I'm not giving him that one, because _I'm not bias_.  I'm not going to state that Sasuke lost unless I know that he did.  Sasuke retreated because he would rather be going for Danzo, not because he thought he was losing.  I have personal feelings about how the fight went, but I admit that there was no clear winner.



> Because damage is the only assessment we have. The fight was interrupted was it not? Much like your high school fights are decided, much like boxing fights are decided.




You don't know any of the rules in boxing, do you?  To win, you do one of two things: knock your opponent down and he is unable to get back up for 10 seconds or knock your opponent down three times (TKO).  Where did you get all this shit about amount of damage?  I'm no fan of boxing and those are the only rules to the game I know.  I repeat: THE ONLY RULES I KNOW!



> Sasuke landed more blows, and dealt more damage. Even Kishi didn't even hint on him winning if the fight had continued is the reason why Sasuke won.


Sasuke: 1
Link removed

Raikage: 1
Link removed

Raikage: 2
Sasuke: 2?
Link removed

So where'd you get this shit about Sasuke landing more blows?  Also, that second blow was only made when A _deliberately_ went right into it.



> It not only didn't kill him, it failed to even hinder him. It was a blow that amounted to nothing. Look at Sasuke's entrance to the summit, and see if they are still their.


Being knocked down isn't nothing.  Do you know what the first thing I learned in my karate class was?  How to stand!  Because being knocked down is a _bad thing_.  So it did hinder him and it did amount to something.  If Sasuke hadn't fallen over, he could have dodged A's next attack more easily.



> What opening Forlong? Haven't I already address this shit before?
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...


The magic ether aura sure did a nice job stopping A's attack before then.  No, if the SOLID BONES weren't able to stop him, there was no way the aura would.  That's ~snip~ you made up because for some reason you can't stand the idea of Sasuke not winning that fight. ~snip~



> Thus is how Sasuke blocked Mizukage's mist/liguid attack?
> 
> Which would have certainly seeped through the cracks had the entire Aura not just the bones protected him.


Link removed
If you actually looked at the page, you would see that Sasuke was trying to bring up Stage 2, but it melted before it could form.  And how did that magic ether aura help?
Link removed
Ignoring manga pages so you can continue to labor under a preconceived conclusion?  Why should I expect anything less from you?



> Did you just create this idea in your head, without looking at the manga as usual.


See above links and you'll who created an idea in his head without looking at the manga.



> He had it before the summit this is Kishi not me.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...


How is that proof that he used the jutsu before?  He was told about the Susano'o before then and knew that it was possible for him to do it, so what about that implies that he could do it before?



> Wasn't that because of his eyes? Did Sasuke have that problem in his fight with the Raikage? So isn't your point irrelevant.


No, it was yours that was irrelevant.  _You_ said that the Susano'o was never effected by Sasuke's condition, and that was incorrect.



> Sasuke *VOMITED* blood? I've seen to have missed that page.


Well that's nothing new:
Link removed
That's not blood that's been coughed up.  That's to much for it to be that.  It's most likely he vomited it.  Maybe it coughed up blood, but neither is a day at the beach to deal with.



> And didn't Raikage need to recieve medical attention before jumping back into the fray? And that injury would still hinder him, as it is a loss of a limb good sir.
> Link removed
> 
> Please strive to debate better in the future, and utilize actual panels that support your claim.


He only did that for Gaara.  Despite what you wish happened, he didn't seek medical help because he needed it.  He got medical help so that Gaara could settle his emotions and to get rid of something that could become a problem if he didn't deal with it.



> What immediate injury did Sasuke suffer again?


When did risking blindness stop being a risky move?  I must have missed the memo.



> Raikage is the one who didn't use what he had to his advantage, including man power. Durai with a long range jutsu was still up for the count, he could have easily set back and assess the situation. Instead he opted to lose his arm, in exchange for a bruise. Instead he he opted to lose an arm for an injury that is no longer visible the second half of the next chapter.


Wow!  For a fan of Sasuke, you sure don't know jack shit about his techniques.  Sasuke has the Sharingan, which is able to predict an opponent's moves to the point of precognition.  Now tell me why you think _long range_ attacks would be useful against that?  What A was doing was the smartest thing: getting as close as he could and moving to fast for him to predict your movements and attack outside his field of view.



> Raikage dodged Amaterasu, how does that harm Sasuke?


The Amaterasu ignites what the user is looking at instantly.  It's Sasuke's fastest and most powerful attack, and he couldn't hit A with it unless he went into it deliberately.  This is yet another example of you not knowing anything about Sasuke's techniques.



> What did the Raikage produced? Something you and others seem to be ignoring.


The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter.  Because only ~snip~ would use "amount of damage" to calculate who the victor is.  There is no victor because the fight was interrupted.  I don't see why that such a sticking point for you.



> Gaara died imagine that. Gara did not also get up and continue fighting other Akatsuki members. Please get the fuck out with these ridiculous arguments.


However, that does prove that the loss of a limb didn't matter in that fight.  So why does it matter in Sasuke vs. A?  Oh, because it allows you to pretend that Sasuke won.


No you can't, because it does.  I'm not even going to bother with a link.  Read the _entire Kage Summit arc again_.  You have missed so much in it that it's not even funny.



> You do know that Raikage wasn't his reason to come to the summit?


Way to dodge the question.  That isn't the point.  The point was that I think Sasuke was smart enough to try everything he could to keep from dying.  Why he fought A is beside the point.



> You are overlooking the fact, that this is a fictional world good sir. And fire has never stuck out and pointed like this. Your argument of why I can't use it isn't even sound because lots of things haven't been done until someone did it. Their has to be a first to be a second good sir.
> 
> Sasuke was the first to push lightning through a sword.
> 
> ...


See, you didn't read _why_ I said you can't use that argument.  Yeah, this is fiction, but in fiction "magic A equals magic A".  A fictional world has it's own rules.  NONE of the rules in this manga makes your claim that the fire spikes could have been anything but fire.

Also, the reason Sasuke can push lighting through a sword is because _metal conducts electricity_.  And he wasn't the first.  It's implied that Bee had been doing it for much longer.



> The picture in your post does not match the EXTREMELY UNIFORM shape of Sasuke's Kasagutchi.


Yeah, but that's where I accept the fact that it's fictional.  Sasuke is pyrokinetic.  No one in the real world is, so we can't be sure how the fire will act.  The default state of fire is a central form with flames flickering up.  So, you could argue that someone dragging fire up will get a spike-like shape out of it.



> Yes, it is bias to say Sasuke would be hurt, as you have nothing to arrive at that argument on than your position in the debate. How you arrived at your assumption cannot be explained in any other way than "Because he will" or "Because I say so".


However, that is not how I arrived at that conclusion.  A's attacks kept doing more damage to the Susano'o and Sasuke, so it's logical to assume the damage would continue to increase in severity.



> You fail at basic chemistry/physics good sir good job.


Once again, said the man that can't accept that fire isn't solid.  I'm not going to get over that because you have NO REASON to think it's solid.  I told you that NO fire jutsu, not even using the Amaterasu, has been known to have properties that can distort solids or liquids it comes in contact with.



> Fire burning fire = logical?
> Living with only a heart = logical?
> Walking on water using chakara=logical?
> 100 foot toads = logical?


The first one is an analogy to real life.  There was a time when people fight forest fires with small fires that deprived it of fuel.  You know what they called those fires?  "Black fire".

The second two can be excused because the manga actually explained how that's supposed to work.  You know what the manga never explained?  That fire jutsu could stop solids or liquids.
The last one is just dumb because giant toads could logically exist.  The lack of something existing doesn't automatically make it illogical.



> And if you look here.
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> They are gone. So how serious are they if Kishi decides to erased them next chapter?


More likely a continuity error.  Those do happen.



> Sasuke wasn't coughing up blood? Made up point
> Sasuke wasn't bleeding profusely?Made up point


Then why was blood coming out of his mouth?



> Some of you even go as far as to down play it? Oh Raikage didn't care. A stupid argument. Would you care if you loss an arm? I'm pretty sure you would.


How I would feel about losing my arm is irrelevant.  Fact is, _like Sasuke_, he was able to continue fighting.  It doesn't matter how we would feel if that happened to us because _he_ was largely unaffected.



> You are biased. An argument that is always pulled out by someone who is losing an argument.


And eventually you say that about me.  So are you admitting to losing the argument?



> Fire is a chemical reaction, but that has nothing do with the physical property the issue we are discussing. The property of fire is plasma, which is the state that doesn't have a definite shape. Kasagutchi had a definite shape, so it has already defied the laws of physics. So why couldn't it be solid.


Fire does have a definite shape, since we can see it.  People claim to see shapes in fire all the time, but you're the only one I heard argue that makes it magically solid.



> You have no history of liking of Raikage, but you do have a history of hatred for Sasuke.
> 
> I presumed this is the case for almost all, minus Turrin I argued against.
> 
> You have no true interest in this argument other than just desire to succeed in bashing sasuke. Doesn't that make you just as biased?


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0[/YOUTUBE]
How many Sasuke bashes do you recall in my posts?  I don't think I made any.  I did my best to ignore my personal feelings about Sasuke.  In fact, I _gave Sasuke credit_.  I thought depending on the Susano'o and Amaterasu jutsu alone to protect him was foolish, but would rather believe A induced a stroke in Sasuke.  I did that because _I cannot believe Sasuke would normally be that foolish_.  Does that sound like bashing to you?  I said that believing Sasuke still had Stage 2 Susano'o in his back pocket was ridiculous because I thought he was smart enough to use it against A if he could.  I may hate Sasuke, but that doesn't stop me from giving him credit when it is due.



> Link removed
> 
> How does that imply that he didn't have it? Does it not in fact confirm it. Seriously sometimes base off your statements forlong, I don't think you really believe what you type.


No it doesn't.  Jugo isn't sure if that's what Sasuke wanted to try out.  And isn't "trying out" something implying that you haven't used it before?  I'm just sayin'.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 17, 2011)

*IpHr0z3nI*
Really you honestly think that Sasuke's fight with Raikage had absolutely no effect on Sasuke abilities/capabilities and that permanent damage to Sasuke's eyes had no effect on future battles? This is why I say your holding Sasuke to a different standard than Raikage, you say Raikage was effected because of the loss of his arm, but fail to address how Sasuke was effected.

If you want to say Raikage was effected more its one thing, but to say Sasuke wasn't effected at all, just ignores manga cannon and makes you seem bias.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Mar 17, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> tl;dr ..
> 
> Dude you could've easily replied to my post in 3 lines instead of posting all these redundant BS
> 
> ...



This is all good, but I can't understand why you think Amaterasu would have spread to other parts of A's body other than the place it originally came into contact with, his leg. It is Sasuke's own control of Amaterasu that causes the flames to spread; they themselves do no such thing. And I really don't think the Sauce would be processing much of anything when he finds that the Raikage smashed his face in like a pimp.  

And if the Raikage was able to amputate part of his own arm by himself, I'm pretty sure he can do the same for his leg. Or maybe even have Temari use wind to decrease the amount of damage, though that may not be applicable in this instance. Case in point, A has ways of dealing with Amaterasu. Sasuke would have died, this is without a doubt, while the Raikage would have suffered a fair amount of bodily damage, but remain alive in the end.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Mar 17, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> *This is all good, but I can't understand why you think Amaterasu would have spread to other parts of A's body other than the place it originally came into contact with, his leg*. It is Sasuke's own control of Amaterasu that causes the flames to spread; they themselves do no such thing. And I really don't think the Sauce would be processing much of anything when he finds that the Raikage smashed his face in like a pimp.
> 
> And if the Raikage was able to amputate part of his own arm by himself, I'm pretty sure he can do the same for his leg. Or maybe even have Temari use wind to decrease the amount of damage, though that may not be applicable in this instance. Case in point, A has ways of dealing with Amaterasu. Sasuke would have died, this is without a doubt, while the Raikage would have suffered a fair amount of bodily damage, but remain alive in the end.



I've already admitted that I may be wrong about the flames spreading to other parts of Raikage's body quickly. But from the scan that I've provided its just not only his leg but there are also other parts that may've been affected .

Other than than : Sasuke will most probably die and Raikage will end up with serious injuries .

Also why am I taking sasuke's side here


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 17, 2011)

Forlong said:


> Which is why A losing an arm is completely irrelevant.  How a victor in a fight is ascertained is if the other gives up or is unable to continue fighting.  _Neither_ A or Sasuke were unable to fight, so there was no real victor.  Deidara and Gaara's fight proves that the loss of a limb is hardly capable of telling us who would have won.  If you want to be technical, A won because Sasuke retreated.  However, I'm not giving him that one, because _I'm not bias_.  I'm not going to state that Sasuke lost unless I know that he did.  Sasuke retreated because he would rather be going for Danzo, not because he thought he was losing.  I have personal feelings about how the fight went, but I admit that there was no clear winner.


Tired of this thread, going to make it short.

Losing an arm is not completely irrelevant, it is all we have. 

Compare the fights similar to boxing matches. Diedara vs. Gara, Torun an fuu vs. Madara. Both of those fights have a knock out, it did not have to go to the score card.

However Sasuke vs. the Raikage didn't have a knockout. Thus the score cards must be looked at.

You also ignore that Deidara and Madara, got replacement arms. Something Raikage has not received yet. 


[QUOTE[You don't know any of the rules in boxing, do you?  To win, you do one of two things: knock your opponent down and he is unable to get back up for 10 seconds or knock your opponent down three times (TKO).  Where did you get all this shit about amount of damage?  I'm no fan of boxing and those are the only rules to the game I know.  I repeat: THE ONLY RULES I KNOW![/QUOTE]
You can also win in boxing by score card can you not?




> Sasuke: 1
> Link removed
> 
> Raikage: 1
> ...


Raikage's power bomb failed. You don't count block shots in boxing. 




> Being knocked down isn't nothing.  Do you know what the first thing I learned in my karate class was?  How to stand!  Because being knocked down is a _bad thing_.  So it did hinder him and it did amount to something.  If Sasuke hadn't fallen over, he could have dodged A's next attack more easily.


Your Karate class, does not equal fight to the death. And of course you do not have a shield of bones surrounding you now do you?

Sasuke was going to maintain a steady position regardless of being up right or not. Raikage could have landed a blow just as easily if Sasuke was upright or on the ground. Susano could easily guard just as efficiently if upright or on the ground. 

So his position does not matter. 




> The magic ether aura sure did a nice job stopping A's attack before then.  No, if the SOLID BONES weren't able to stop him, there was no way the aura would.  That's BS you made up because for some reason you can't stand the idea of Sasuke not winning that fight.  Are you really that insecure?


Yes it did.

given the fact that it either totally prevented damage, or reduced it's effects down to a bruise.

The magic aura was never noted, to be any less defensive wise than the bones, but again I don't know. Kishi has never laid out the specific details. 

The point is, their is no opening good sir.




> Link removed
> If you actually looked at the page, you would see that Sasuke was trying to bring up Stage 2, but it melted before it could form.  And how did that magic ether aura help?
> Link removed
> Ignoring manga pages so you can continue to labor under a preconceived conclusion?  Why should I expect anything less from you?


Actually his chakara prevented him from accessing stage 2. 
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

Thus is why once Zetsu supplied him chakara he was easily out of their.
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone







> See above links and you'll who created an idea in his head without looking at the manga.


~snip~




> How is that proof that he used the jutsu before?  He was told about the Susano'o before then and knew that it was possible for him to do it, so what about that implies that he could do it before?


It's not proof he used it before, but it is implied he had it.

He never used Susano bones before neither, but he was able to call upon it. I suggest you accept manga cannon and move on. 




> No, it was yours that was irrelevant.  _You_ said that the Susano'o was never effected by Sasuke's condition, and that was incorrect.


It was affected by his chakara, not his physical condition.






> Well that's nothing new:
> Link removed
> That's not blood that's been coughed up.  That's to much for it to be that.  It's most likely he vomited it.  Maybe it coughed up blood, but neither is a day at the beach to deal with.


He vomited it? I don't see that in your link. Your point fails Forlong

Sasuke was bleeding any harder than Naruto in this panel

Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

Blood does not necessarily indicate a serious injury.








> He only did that for Gaara.  Despite what you wish happened, he didn't seek medical help because he needed it.  He got medical help so that Gaara could settle his emotions and to get rid of something that could become a problem if he didn't deal with it.


Do you even believe that shit?

He needed medical help, because he asked for it. 




> When did risking blindness stop being a risky move?  I must have missed the memo.


Was Sasuke affected by blindness IMMEDIATELY AFTER? Hell did Sasuke's eyes shows signs of being less effective visually before and after the raikage fight? What NO? Thus your point is irrelevant.





> Wow!  For a fan of Sasuke, you sure don't know jack shit about his techniques.  Sasuke has the Sharingan, which is able to predict an opponent's moves to the point of precognition.  Now tell me why you think _long range_ attacks would be useful against that?  What A was doing was the smartest thing: getting as close as he could and moving to fast for him to predict your movements and attack outside his field of view.



I don't think Sasuke was in a position to have that kind of mobility while Susano is active. 

It it couldn't hurt Forlong. 

It's not like Raikage's chop got Sasuke any closer to deaths door.

And Raikage would still have two arms. 






> The Amaterasu ignites what the user is looking at instantly.  It's Sasuke's fastest and most powerful attack, and he couldn't hit A with it unless he went into it deliberately.  This is yet another example of you not knowing anything about Sasuke's techniques.



I failed to see, how this addresses my point.




> The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter.  Because only a childish goof would use "amount of damage" to calculate who the victor is.  There is no victor because the fight was interrupted.  I don't see why that such a sticking point for you.


There is a victor, just like your high school fight. How were they judged forlong? I doubt any battle in high school were to the death.

I had plenty of fights in my younger days, and I won some and lost some. All got broken up at some point or another. The usual winner was determined by who landed more hits, who did more damage.

The battle between Sasuke and Rocklee of part one was interrupted. But it is unanimously considered rock lee being the winner of that fight, do to the same factors I am using to judge this one.






> However, that does prove that the loss of a limb didn't matter in that fight.  So why does it matter in Sasuke vs. A?  Oh, because it allows you to pretend that Sasuke won.


Because the fight had a conclusion genius. And Deidara fate paled in comparison to Garra that is why Deidara won. 

We are talking about a fight that was interupted, thus the same rules of measuring doesn't apply. We must assess the injuries received in the battle, the hits landed and pick out a winner. 

Rock lee again is considered the unanimous winner of that bought, despite it being interrupted. Due to the same factors I am giving Sasuke. 



> No you can't, because it does.  I'm not even going to bother with a link.  Read the _entire Kage Summit arc again_.  You have missed so much in it that it's not even funny.


You not going to bother with a link because you have no proof. 




> Way to dodge the question.  That isn't the point.  The point was that I think Sasuke was smart enough to try everything he could to keep from dying.  Why he fought A is beside the point.



He wasn't planning on dying which is the point good sir. 




> See, you didn't read _why_ I said you can't use that argument.  Yeah, this is fiction, but in fiction "magic A equals magic A".  A fictional world has it's own rules.  NONE of the rules in this manga makes your claim that the fire spikes could have been anything but fire.


Yea I did I addressed it.

Their is no rules for for a fictional world. If their are we certainly do not know them. 





> Also, the reason Sasuke can push lighting through a sword is because _metal conducts electricity_.  And he wasn't the first.  It's implied that Bee had been doing it for much longer.


But that is the thing he is generating electricity through his body, to create such an effect. Can someone do that in real life? Can I insert lighting into my care battery and super jump start it?






> Yeah, but that's where I accept the fact that it's fictional.  Sasuke is pyrokitetic.  No one in the real world is, so we can't be sure how the fire will act.  The default state of fire is a central form with flames flickering up.  So, you could argue that someone dragging fire up will get a spike-like shape out of it.


And in a fictional word they're are no rules, one could break/bend the laws of physics and logic. I'm stop trying to figure out how does Sasori survive with just a heart.

However flickering was something that entons Kagtusuchi was not doing. 
It had shape
takes a-lot out of Sasuke,

A property normal fire even Amaterasu doesn't have.

If it had shape, then it wouldn't be outrageous to say it had volume/density as well.

After all one is associated with another. One cannot have a definite shape without having a definite volume. Thus is the property of a solid.



> However, that is not how I arrived at that conclusion.  A's attacks kept doing more damage to the Susano'o and Sasuke, so it's logical to assume the damage would continue to increase in severity.


But their are other variables involved in that deduction as well. Were they the same attacks? Were they targeting the same area's? Is some parts of Susano stronger than others.

All of these are possible factors you must take into an account in your assessment. 








> Once again, said the man that can't accept that fire isn't solid.  I'm not going to get over that because you have NO REASON to think it's solid.  I told you that NO fire jutsu, not even using the Amaterasu, has been known to have properties that can distort solids or liquids it comes in contact with.


Fire also doesn't have definite shape. Kagutsuchi has shape, thus it already doesn't behave like fire. We do not know the mechanics of the jutsu.

Solid is the only property of matter with definite shape good sir. With definite shape comes the property of density/volume which is in fact exactly what a sold is. Mass of matter with definite shape and volume/density thus it occupies space.

I'm not even saying it is guaranteed, but your reasoning for saying it cant is flawed as it already defies the mechanics of normal fire. 






> The first one is an analogy to real life.  There was a time when people fight forest fires with small fires that deprived it of fuel.  You know what they called those fires?  "Black fire".
> 
> The second two can be excused because the manga actually explained how that's supposed to work.  You know what the manga never explained?  That fire jutsu could stop solids or liquids.
> The last one is just dumb because giant toads could logically exist.  The lack of something existing doesn't automatically make it illogical.


The manga explained how Sasori manage to pull this off? Please find me the page.

~snip~, at this point because you are saying it cannot because that defies the mechanics of fire seen in the magna. But no katon, not even Amaterasu has ever had a definite shape, Kagutsuchi has therefore it already behaves differently than the other katons in the manga.








> More likely a continuity error.  Those do happen.


Too bad it didn't happen for the Raikage's arm.

If it a continuity error, it means it is insignificant. As it is a detail that was easily overlooked.  




> Then why was blood coming out of his mouth?


Bleeding from the mouth does not mean you coughed it up.
Bleeding from the mouth does not mean it is profusely(As in excess)

He is bleeding because he was hit there. 

Just like this
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone 
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

None of those hits by Sasuke were game breaking, but they did draw blood.

If you are hit in the mouth heard enough you could be bleed from the mouth, just like the nose, just like the eye.

It doesn't indicate that the wound was serious or critical, just that it was enough to cause bleeding.









> How I would feel about losing my arm is irrelevant.  Fact is, _like Sasuke_, he was able to continue fighting.  It doesn't matter how we would feel if that happened to us because _he_ was largely unaffected.


It is, because you are saying he doesn't care, when in fact he didn't. He only stated he had no regrets about his actions. 

He was not able to continue fighting, without a patch up from doctor C.
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone
Or maybe even have Temari use wind to decrease the amount of damage

Losing an arm can lead to death, if not treated as excessive blood loss is serious business. He always was not be able to fight just as efficient as before, meaning he couldn't execute, repeat all the moves in that fight with one arm.

It's like Sasuke losing an eye, he could still technically fight, but his move pull would be reduced, he couldn't carry out all the maneuvers he pulled when he had both eyes. 

Sasuke was able to continue to fight for a prolong period, with no medical assistance. 

~snip~






> Fire does have a definite shape, since we can see it.  People claim to see shapes in fire all the time, but you're the only one I heard argue that makes it magically solid.


Good god you are slow, because you can see it doesn't mean it has shape. Do you know what a definite shape is? It means it doesn't change.

Look at a shoe does it alter in shape when you are not looking or is it stable? Your bed, your pc, your car etc. etc. all have fixed shapes they do not alternate on their own.

Water, gas, and especially plasma do not have definite shape. Water and gas take the shape of their container fire flickers and is constantly changing shapes.

You can see it, because you can see the brightly lit particles, not all fires can be seen as easily depending on the material that is burning, and what is emitting.

You can see a shape in fire, but does make it DEFINITE AS IN FIXED. Kagutsuchi was in a fixed shape. Not only was it in a fixed shape, but it was in complete uniform symmetry, as if it was froze solid/condensed. 

Look at the Amaterasu on Raikage's arm
Or maybe even have Temari use wind to decrease the amount of damage
Notice it is chaotic, as with water, as with gas

Their is no symmetry involved no uniform pattern
Vs. Kagutsuchi
Or maybe even have Temari use wind to decrease the amount of damage

Which is symmetrical from both sides, including the spikes. It has a pattern as it is symmetric. 

The fact that it has shape doesn't mean it has volume/density it doesn't make it a solid. However it does disprove your ridiculous notion, that it is not possible do to Katons/Amaterasu not behaving this way. As Enton Kagutsuchi has already distinguished itself form the others. 






> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0[/YOUTUBE]
> How many Sasuke bashes do you recall in my posts?  I don't think I made any.  I did my best to ignore my personal feelings about Sasuke.  In fact, I _gave Sasuke credit_.  I thought depending on the Susano'o and Amaterasu jutsu alone to protect him was foolish, but would rather believe A induced a stroke in Sasuke.  I did that because _I cannot believe Sasuke would normally be that foolish_.  Does that sound like bashing to you?  I said that believing Sasuke still had Stage 2 Susano'o in his back pocket was ridiculous because I thought he was smart enough to use it against A if he could.  I may hate Sasuke, but that doesn't stop me from giving him credit when it is due.


Several good sir. Considering you have never once praised him or acknowledge his feats, considering you have only criticize him, you have infact bashed him.

Calling it silly/foolish is your opinion. Stage 2 Susano requires additional chakara, remember Sasuke came for Danzo not Raikage. You do not eat a heavy breakfast if you plan to go out to eat for lunch.

You do not run a marathon before you have a basket ball game. Sasuke chakara unlike Naruto, has finite chakara. 

I disagree with you I believe Susano + Amaterasu was an admiral defense, look at the outcome. Sasuke was also pleased with the outcome thus is why he didn't go panic mode and summon Stage 2 Susano, just simply modify the support for Susano.






> No it doesn't.  Jugo isn't sure if that's what Sasuke wanted to try out.  And isn't "trying out" something implying that you haven't used it before?  I'm just sayin'.


It is a rhetorical question. 


~snip~

He hasn't used the Susano bones before neither, neither did he use Enton Kasugutchi, enton etc. etc.. 



He had it in his back pocket, thus the reason he was able to pull it out like he did, with no explanation. 

In fact Kishi even had Sasuke hint something, to warn fans Sasuke would have a knew attack. You have been proven wrong good sir, just face the facts. And I said this was going to be short.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 17, 2011)

Turrin said:


> *IpHr0z3nI*
> Really you honestly think that Sasuke's fight with Raikage had absolutely no effect on Sasuke abilities/capabilities and that permanent damage to Sasuke's eyes had no effect on future battles? This is why I say your holding Sasuke to a different standard than Raikage, you say Raikage was effected because of the loss of his arm, but fail to address how Sasuke was effected.


You tell me if it did Turrin. 

Answer my damn questions.

Is their a there a different between pre and post Sasuke's abilities? 
Has his approach to battle change?
Has his so called injuries against Raikage affected his post fights?
Does post Raikage Sasuke, appear any more blind than pre?

Their is no discrepancies between pre Sasuke and post Sasuke, that is way I say his injuries are irrelevant.

For Raikage there is. As the loss of an arm will certainly.
Change his approach to battle.
There is a difference between pre Sasuke fight Raikage and post Raikage fight Sasuke.

These are not different standards Turrin, they are the same. You are ignoring my argument, out right. 

You agreed already that theses are not equal injuries. 

You would have a point if Sasuke's eye sight suddenly dropped post Raikage battle, but their isn't any indication of such. As Sasuke did not shows signs of it, and if he did please show me the page.

You have been bested, and are dropping points left and right. First you drop the blow, once I proven that it wasn't any different than Sasuke's chidori. And equally as irrelevant.

Next you drop shortening of life span, when I showed you how irrelevant that is. Shortening of life span would only affect Sasuke, if he lives to die of natural causes. If he dies in battle like 99% of the Naruto population, then shortening ones life is irrelevant. 

Now you are just holding on the blindness card for dear life, and sadly that is even more irrelevant, as Sasuke didn't go blind from fighting the Raikage. In fact their isn't any signs of a deterioration in eye sight.

You are essentially comparing the VERY OBVIOUS wounds of the Raikage to the NOT SO OBVIOUS, IT MAY BE THERE wounds of Sasuke.

As I said before if Sasuke lost an eye, and Raikage only gained a bruise this argument would be useless. 



> If you want to say Raikage was effected more its one thing, but to say Sasuke wasn't effected at all, just ignores manga cannon and makes you seem bias.


I didn't say he was effected by more than one thing. I simply stated his wounds were SEVERELY more serious than Sasuke's to the point of being one sided. 

Sasuke suffered no immediate negative consequences for battling the Raikage. Raikage's injuries would not and did not impact his future fights.


Sasuke did not have to alter his approach to battle in later fights, and can still pull the same exact jutsu's displayed in the Raikage fight if he wants too.

Raikage cannot do this. His suffered immediate negative consequences, as he had to take a break from fighting to see patch adoms C.

Raikage future battles will be affected by this injury, as with his everyday life.

Raikage can no longer utilize all the moves shown in his fight against Sasuke, and any thing else that requires the use of two arms. Yes he can easily make adjustments, but the thing is Sasuke doesn't have too.

Raikage injuries was unfair by Kishi, as the battle wasn't that serious. Gara/Mei was allowed to skirmish Sasuke, thus displaying a few of their abilities and leave unscathed why not Raikage?

Raikage was not in the wrong, in the fight yet he seem to have been treated as if he was. You can argue that losing an arm is not that big of a deal, while ignoring that Raikage is primarily a taijutsu fighter and a wrestling one at that, but that couldn't be further from the truth. 

I personally think that Raikage having one arm, was the reason Kishi is working overtime to keep him out of fights. He was made commander, to avoid being placed on a field. And Kishi cleverly came up with a good explanation to keep him from heading out on the field against Genkaku/Kenkaku.

Yes people have loss limbs, but they have always got them replaced, Raikage has yet to do so, thus it is a big deal period.

Even Sasuke's eventual blindness from a CONTINUOUS USAGE OF MS was a big deal, thus is why he obtain Itachi's eyes. 

This isn't about downplaying up playing etc. etc. As it is clear as day to see that both and Raikage and Sasuke did not suffer even remotely near the same consequences from that battle.

Sasuke was place in a battle BY KISHI IMMEDIATELY AFTER. Raikage MAY HAVE WANTED TO FIGHT, HE MAY HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN ABLE TO FIGHT. But Kishi didn't allow him too.

That is the difference Turrin. That is the is the cold hard truth.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 17, 2011)

> He was not able to continue fighting, without a patch up from doctor C.
> Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone
> Link removed
> 
> Losing an arm can lead to death, if not treated as excessive blood loss is serious business.


~snip~Too fucking bad it didn't bother Deidara and he was able to finish up without medical care and and wasn't in a hurry to get it once the battle was over.*AGAIN!*Is Dei more durable than A?

Someone like A will no doubt be able to not just survive but be *perfectly fine* as well, at the very least as long as Dei without receiving medical attention, which is very bad news for Sascake considering he will be long dead before A receives treatment 




> Sasuke was able to continue to fight for a prolong period, with no medical assistance.



A would've been able to continue without medical assistance as well but he just decided to do something productive while Gaara wastes his time talking with Sascake.

And Sascake didn't actually "fight".He just blocked attacks.And for how long before he had to receive help from Zetsu??2 minutes max?




> Yes people have loss limbs, but they have always got them replaced, Raikage has yet to do so, thus it is a big deal period.



As mentioned a zillion times before, A could have easily replaced it but that would require him to actually give a damn about it


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 17, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Your entire argument is based on overhyping the damage. It is a two way street. You are ignoring my points, as I already proven how silly your petty arguments are.
> 
> The argument is never simply Sasuke doesn't care, it's the fact that Sasuke is not immediately affected by them, and they do not alter his approach/capabilities in battle. Meaning Sasuke could fight just as efficiently post Raikage battle, as he could pre.
> 
> ...



Ma'am. A took medical attention because it was available and he had the time to. Sasuke and any other human with a brain would take medical attention but it wasnt IMMEDIATELY needed as you make it seem or that there was no chance A could tolerate/dont give a darn about the bleeding. 

He couldnt pull off all the moves he could cuz of the arm loss? Maybe, maybe NOT. One-arm powerbombs have been done ya know (Google it) There are many variants of the powerbomb which dont require both arms....so in simpler terms....he would just have to ADJUST. Doesnt mean his world is gonna end or the same moves arent possible. e.g I break my left arm which I use to hold my spoon with just cuz I could do so....but my right arm is just as efficient at holding my spoon regardless. HURRAY! . Like in Zabuza's case, he lost his arms' function so no more Kenjutsu right?....he lost, no hope.....or so you BELIEVE!?  The dude stuck a kunai in his mouth and killed everyone...in short, what did he do? HE ADJUSTED. And Raikage, he still has 3/4 of his arm left. He can still elbow punks to death and if he attaches a spear there shit just got worse!  (joke, lol) Anyway...

Deidara lost his arm but he got the job done. Same thing A was gonna do....GET THE JOB DONE. Way of the ninja kinda thing here. Sacrifice is all part of the game girl....even if it means death, ninjas dont give a shit as long as the mission is complete, right? GOOD. I saw a pic somewhere in one of these post of Sasuke before the blow and after. The dude started bleeding from the mouth, thats an injury. 1-up for A then cause that was A's attack and HIS ALONE. Also about the chidori hit you might obviously bring up. He was expecting to tank it 100% but he ended up tanking the attack 99% and just said to himself," Aw, whats this bull? Come here boy!" Powerbombs and one-shots Sasuke. Its kinda similar to Sasuke expecting to tank Raikage with the AMASUSANO. 

But Sasuke had NOOOOOOOO hope against a well-minded Raikage. He had absolutely nothing in his arsenal to counter A's speed. Sure....bring up Susanoo....but seriously...I'm just gonna say this one more time. Please listen carefully. You listening? OK......YOU SURE? Ok....ready....? Good. 
*SUSANOO DOESNT LAST FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* Im done 
So if Raikage didnt decide to hurt himself....Sasuke would be....hopeless? Oh no sorry...he would dominate 'cuz Sasuke was landing 10,000 blows on A right? Yup...I totally agree.........................................*Sarcasm*


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2011)

*IpHr0z3nI*
I'm going to make this as simple as possible.

Against Bee Sasuke used MS Four times: Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and to extinguish the flames on Karin and Bee's Kwarimi

This caused Sasuke's eyes to be damaged and hurt his depth perception:

​
Sasuke against Raikage used MS Four times: Susano'o, Amaterasu, Enton Flame Shield, and Enton Kagutsuchi

And he was even stacking MS Techniques, using Amaterasu/Enton at the same time as Susano'o, which we are told is even more damaging. 

So the manga cannon dictates that Sasuke did receive lasting damage from his battle with Raikage, since eyesight should decay just as badly as it did from his fight with Bee, if not worse. Both Sasuke and Raikage came out of that fight with lasting damage, Raikage lost and arm and Sasuke lost a portion of his eyesight. 

If your going to say that such damage didn't stop Sasuke from fighting on, this applies to Raikage too, since getting hit with Amaterasu flames on his arm did not stop Raikage from fighting on ether. It was Gaara who stopped Raikage, not the damage.

If your going to say that Sasuke didn't care about the damage he received from his fight with Raikage, this also applies to the Raikage who did not care about losing his arm. In-fact Raikage seemed to care less than Sasuke, since he didn't even go out of his way to replace his arm [which he could have], while Sasuke did go out of his way to replace his eyes, even going back on his pledge to not take Itachi's eyes. 

You also say losing life span is irrelevant, but it is relevant because it shows the damage that Raikage caused Sasuke during their battle. You belittle the effect of Raikage cuasing Sasuke to lose a portion of his life span, but if I lived in the Naruto world I would take losing my arm, which can be easily replaced as we saw with Deidara, over losing years of my life which can ether never be recovered or its at least FAR harder to do so.

You can say that Sasuke didn't care about losing a portion of his life span, but Raikage didn't care about losing his arm, so once again you would be applying a double standard. Thus what were left with is Sasuke lost a portion of his life span and eyesight, while Raikage lost an arm.

As for the effects of the Raikage battle not effecting Sasuke in his other battles in the Kages arc, that once again goes against Manga Cannon:

​
If you say that Sasuke could pull the same jutsu after the Raikage fight, that he could before, once again this can be said about the Raikage as well. The only Jutsu Raikage has been shown to use is his Raiton Armor and we clearly see him using this Jutsu after his fight with Sasuke:

​
So once again this assertion goes against Manga Cannon. 

Than You say Raikage's injuries were more severe because they are more visually obvious, but such an argument is based on aesthetics, which you have already said is a _"petty argument"_, so now that your turning around and using an aesthetic based argument in favor of Sasuke, once again shows your double standards.

This is not to mention the fact that losing ones arm does not mean, that they are going to loose the fight or even lost the Initiative in that specific fight. For example see Deidara vs Gaara [1]. So Raikage losing his arm doesn't mean jack squat about who the victor of that fight would have been or who would have come out of that fight best, if there was a real conclusion.

Finally you suggest that Kishi keeping Raikage from fighting Sasuke again, means Sasuke had the advantage over Raikage, unless you can read the author's mind there is no way you can possibly know this. Keeping Raikage out of the fight may have been more for Sasuke's benefit than Raikage's, since that way Sasuke didn't have 2 Kages and 4 Jonin to contend with at once. Really there is no way to tell what the author had in mind. Though you just assuming its something in favor of Sasuke is another example of your double standards. 

There you go IpHr0z3nI I have answered all your questions with direct scans form the manga and your own words. You can deny it all you want, but its right there in black and white.


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## Forlong (Mar 17, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Losing an arm is not completely irrelevant, it is all we have.
> 
> Compare the fights similar to boxing matches. Diedara vs. Gara, Torun an fuu vs. Madara. Both of those fights have a knock out, it did not have to go to the score card.


Thing is: THEY AREN'T BOXING MATCHES!  Real life does not have the same rules as a sporting event.  You know, I looked up that score card rule and you know how the winner is determined?  By whatever the judge decides.  So who was the judge of that fight?  Oh, no one, because _it was a real fight_.  In _real_ combat, the loser is determined by who can no longer fight or gives up.  In competitions, their have to be more rules to prevent serious injury and death from occurring.  You might as well go all Calvinball on us and make up the rules as you go.  ~snip~



> You also ignore that Deidara and Madara, got replacement arms. Something Raikage has not received yet.


Irrelevant.  A is _able_ to get a replacement, but has chosen not to.  I take that choice as evidence that he doesn't feel seriously hindered by the loss.  Thus, you can't pretend that it was serious, unless you find evidence contrary.



> You can also win in boxing by score card can you not?


I did check that rule, and it is not determined by amount of damage or who made the most hits.  It can be either of those, if that's what the judge chooses to do, but he has no set guidelines to follow.  So not only are you applying boxing rules to a real fight, but non-existent ones.



> Raikage's power bomb failed. You don't count block shots in boxing.


As I said, the rules of boxing don't apply to real fights.  Besides, Sasuke's chidori failed as well.  It's supposed to go completely through the body, and it didn't.



> Your Karate class, does not equal fight to the death. And of course you do not have a shield of bones surrounding you now do you?
> 
> Sasuke was going to maintain a steady position regardless of being up right or not. Raikage could have landed a blow just as easily if Sasuke was upright or on the ground. Susano could easily guard just as efficiently if upright or on the ground.
> 
> So his position does not matter.


Apparently, you don't know the reason to learn martial arts is to be able to defend yourself.  And that includes a fight to the death.  I'll explain it to you, so read carefully.  When you're knocked down, your movements are limited and you are very unlikely to get back up.  This is why in BOXING, knocking down an opponent is a primary goal.  Logically, when knocked down, it would be difficult to win a fight.  Not impossible, but that does mean that someone is at a disadvantage when they hit the floor.  A's attack didn't kill Sasuke, as I'm sure he intended, but it did put Sasuke to a disadvantage.  That is not nothing.



> Yes it did.
> 
> given the fact that it either totally prevented damage, or reduced it's effects down to a bruise.
> 
> ...


The "magic aura" wasn't brought up because it does nothing.  If the aura is enough to protect him, what's the point of forming the bones?  Or any of the other stages of Susano'o?  The aura is nothing but Sasuke's chakra coming out of his body.  The bones were made of his compressed chakra into a solid from (which was SHOWN) and are capable of protecting him because of that.  However, they are able to be damaged in some fashion, which would mean that hitting through a break in them would damage Sasuke.



> Actually his chakara prevented him from accessing stage 2.
> Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone
> 
> Thus is why once Zetsu supplied him chakara he was easily out of their.
> Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone


Way to not know jack crap.  Karin was _assuming_ that Sasuke's depleting chakra was because he overdid it.  However, Sasuke was using his chakra to keep the Susano'o up when it was melting, thus it was really what Mei was doing that was sapping his chakra.  Also, if you actually _read the manga_, you'd know that Zetsu replenished Sasuke's chakra so that he could reach Stage 2 again and break a well.  Sasuke did the smart thing and got away from the poison so that it wouldn't damage his protection anymore.  ~snip~


> It's not proof he used it before, but it is implied he had it.
> 
> He never used Susano bones before neither, but he was able to call upon it. I suggest you accept manga cannon and move on.


So you admit to being wrong in saying that it was proof that Sasuke had used the Susano'o before?



> It was affected by his chakara, not his physical condition.


Sasuke was going blind, thus the Susano'o disappeared.  That was due to physical condition.



> He vomited it? I don't see that in your link. Your point fails Forlong
> 
> Sasuke was bleeding any harder than Naruto in this panel
> 
> ...


Then how is losing an arm?  I've listed people who lost arms in fights and only one of them lost the fight afterwords.  Two of them retreated rather than risk continuing.  The point is, you're arguing that bleeding out the mouth isn't serious, but the lose of an arm is despite the constant usage of lost limbs.  This makes no sense.



> Do you even believe that shit?
> 
> He needed medical help, because he asked for it.


Believing what's in the frickin' manga!?  What crazy thing will I do next!?
Link removed
A got medical attention because it was convenient.  Gaara could hold Sasuke's attention, so why not try to heal wounds that could become a problem?  Isn't that smart fighting?  To continue your boxing analogy, it's like a boxer taking a drink of water, toweling off, or something like that.  It's done to make things easier.  A wasn't about to bleed to death.  He got medical help because it would make things a bit easier for him.  ~snip~


> Was Sasuke affected by blindness IMMEDIATELY AFTER? Hell did Sasuke's eyes shows signs of being less effective visually before and after the raikage fight? What NO? Thus your point is irrelevant.


It's an example that you're not getting.  Sasuke didn't show signs of being immediately affected by the risk to his eyes, but did A show signs of being immediately affected by the loss of his arm?  Nope.  So what's the point?  You want to believe whatever crap you can to believe that Sasuke won an inconclusive fight.  What, has Sasuke just not won enough fights for your taste?



> I don't think Sasuke was in a position to have that kind of mobility while Susano is active.


Baseless statement.  Unless you have evidence that it does that, you're just making stuff up.



> I failed to see, how this addresses my point.


~snip~

The Amaterasu is Sasuke's best attack, so it's NOT a good thing for him if it's not doing jack crap.  ~snip~



> There is a victor, just like your high school fight. How were they judged forlong? I doubt any battle in high school were to the death.
> 
> I had plenty of fights in my younger days, and I won some and lost some. All got broken up at some point or another. The usual winner was determined by who landed more hits, who did more damage.
> 
> The battle between Sasuke and Rocklee of part one was interrupted. But it is unanimously considered rock lee being the winner of that fight, do to the same factors I am using to judge this one.


This isn't a high school brawl.  This is a real fight.  The reason kids determine a winner through stupid methods like "number of hits" or "amount of damage" is because they haven't developed an understanding of inconclusive events.  MOST of us realized that there are times when there is no definitive answer before reaching adulthood.  Sasuke and A's fight was interrupted so there is no clear winner.  ~snip~
The same is actually true about Sasuke vs. Rock Lee.  However, ~snip~ is saying Lee won because he had the advantage, not because he scored more hits.  Number of hits and amount of damage is irrelevant because one hit could kill you.  If someone punches five times and isn't able to knock a guy out, how is that good for them?



> Because the fight had a conclusion genius. And Deidara fate paled in comparison to Garra that is why Deidara won.


But a fight without a conclusion doesn't have a winner. ~snip~


> We are talking about a fight that was interupted, thus the same rules of measuring doesn't apply. We must assess the injuries received in the battle, the hits landed and pick out a winner.


The same rules apply to all fights.  ~snip~  Yeah, more people from the North died in that war.  However, General Lee had a grasp on reality and admitted defeat because his loses were to great for him.  So you're measurement for victory is based on a complete lack of logic.  A's loss doesn't matter.  Sasuke being able to continue fighting doesn't matter.  None of that matters because Gaara _stopped_ the fight from concluding, thus it has no conclusion.  Get over it.



> Rock lee again is considered the unanimous winner of that bought, despite it being interrupted. Due to the same factors I am giving Sasuke.


Thing is, those factors you're applying to Sasuke were NOT applied to Lee.  I still don't think it's correct, but it's at least based off something that makes sense.



> You not going to bother with a link because you have no proof.


Link removed
Link removed
See the Susano'o deteriorating?  Of course you don't, because that disproves your preconceived notion.



> Yea I did I addressed it.
> 
> Their is no rules for for a fictional world. If their are we certainly do not know them.


WOW!  It's been a long time since I've read something that stupid.  There are rules to this fictional world.  Here's the proof, not that you'll read it:




> If it had shape, then it wouldn't be outrageous to say it had volume/density as well.


Yes, because we can see shapes in fire when it has no mass.  Unless you are able to explain where the mass comes from.  I excuse a lot of crazy things in this manga because they are explained.  "Solid fire" requires an explanation.



> Solid is the only property of matter with definite shape good sir.


Wrongo.  Liquids have a definite shape: the sphere.



> You sound silly, at this point because you are saying it cannot because that defies the mechanics of fire seen in the magna. But no katon, not even Amaterasu has ever had a definite shape, Kagutsuchi has therefore it already behaves differently than the other katons in the manga.


Link removed
See the sphere of fire above his head?  ~snip~


> It doesn't indicate that the wound was serious or critical, just that it was enough to cause bleeding.


Then why do you pretend that the loss of an arm is critical, when evidence contrary has been shown?  Oh yeah, you wouldn't be bias if you didn't.



> He was not able to continue fighting, without a patch up from doctor C.
> Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone
> [1]
> 
> Losing an arm can lead to death, if not treated as excessive blood loss is serious business. He always was not be able to fight just as efficient as before, meaning he couldn't execute, repeat all the moves in that fight with one arm.


He only lost the arm because HE cut it off.  If he didn't have time for medical help, he would have continued with the flaming fist.  So you're already admitting that A did more damage to himself than Sasuke did to him.



> Sasuke was able to continue to fight for a prolong period, with no medical assistance.


And look what happened to him?  A did the smart thing an got medical aid when he could.  A is not weaker than Sasuke when he fights _smarter_ than Sasuke.  That has no effect on their fight, because A could have gone on in his state and chose not to.



> I say that about you, when it's obvious you came up with that idea out of sheer bias, which means you have nothing to support your assessment.
> 
> And I often bring it up, only after you use the bias argument.


You say Sasuke won because of "amount of damage" and "number of hits".  However, I say that, despite Sasuke retreating technically amounting to a loss, it was an inconclusive battle.  How is not counting Sasuke _deliberately retreating_ as a loss for him bias against him?  That's bullshit.  I don't give Sasuke that as a loss because he wasn't retreating because of the conditions of the fight.  In other words: I'm giving him a fair chance to fail or impress.  _You_ say that damage to Sasuke was minor, however ignore proof that the damage to A was also minor.  In other words: you _didn't_ give A a fair chance to fail or impress.  You go by a preconceived conclusion and ignore all evidence contrary.



> Their is no symmetry involved no uniform pattern
> Vs. Kagutsuchi
> [1]


Really?  So that one still image shows us that it remained fixed in that shape?



> Several good sir. Considering you have never once praised him or acknowledge his feats, considering you have only criticize him, you have infact bashed him.


Fight with Deidara and the fight with Danzo.

In _both cases_ I have given Sasuke credit for winning and impressing me.  That's a far cry from "never".  Also, you fail to give any examples on _this thread_.  I said that Sasuke did foolish things, but tried to explain it because I believe he's smarter than he came out to be in those cases.  Just because I hate him doesn't mean I don't understand his abilities and expect him to function effectively.



> Calling it silly/foolish is your opinion. Stage 2 Susano requires additional chakara, remember Sasuke came for Danzo not Raikage. You do not eat a heavy breakfast if you plan to go out to eat for lunch.


That's a whole different issue.  When A attacked him, Sasuke's focus became survival.  You're arguing that he wasn't doing his best because he was saving energy for Danzo.  However, if that was the case, he should have avoided fighting A altogether.  _You_ are the one insulting Sasuke's intelligence.  I'm saying that he must have been impaired in some way, because I'm sure he's not that stupid. ~snip~


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## Naruko (Mar 17, 2011)

Some folks are getting overboard with personal commentary. State your case and move on; refute an argument civilly, don't get into personal attacks about the quality of the person/poster you're talking to. Stay on topic and be nicer, guys.


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## spiritmight (Mar 17, 2011)

Oh look the attack that dealt absolutely no damage to Sasuke


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 17, 2011)

spiritmight said:


> Oh look the attack that dealt absolutely no damage to Sasuke



And not suprisingly....it has PLOT NO JUTSU WRITTEN ALL OVER IT! Lemme break it down for you....
Raikage's "chop" was able to break through Susanoo bones but the frigin' LIGER BOMB didnt do anything....WHERE'S THE LOGIC IN THAT??????????!!!!!!!!!!!  

PLOT
NO
JUTSU


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## spiritmight (Mar 17, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> And not suprisingly....it has PLOT NO JUTSU WRITTEN ALL OVER IT! Lemme break it down for you....
> Raikage's "chop" was able to break through Susanoo bones but the frigin' LIGER BOMB didnt do anything....WHERE'S THE LOGIC IN THAT??????????!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> PLOT
> ...



Typical.

Sasuke gets out of a sticky situation/avoids injury: PLOT NO JUTSU KISHI IS A ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) FOR SAUCEGAY

HAX 
UCHIHA EMO 
SAUCEGAY

I try to stay neutral to the character, but come on.


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## M a t t h e w (Mar 17, 2011)

Raikage's a pussy!


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## Superstars (Mar 17, 2011)

spiritmight said:


> Oh look the attack that dealt absolutely no damage to Sasuke



Raikage controlled much of the fight.


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## Judecious (Mar 17, 2011)

Superstars said:


> Raikage controlled much of the fight.



Vs a sasuke who didn't even have a complete MS yet he would have killed Raikage if gaara didn't block Amaterasu.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 17, 2011)

spiritmight said:


> Typical.
> 
> Sasuke gets out of a sticky situation/avoids injury: PLOT NO JUTSU KISHI IS A ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) FOR SAUCEGAY
> 
> ...



What the hell, LOL
Calm down my friend, you see me dissing Sasuke as a character? Nope, I dont think so.
I brought some logic to you and this is all you could do? C'mon....and its the anime that made me realize how much plot no jutsu had to do with this bro. Before when all I had was manga I didnt look into it....but after I saw how devastating the Liger bomb was.......I just couldnt believe the nonsense. 

Liger bomb> a..............chop....seriosuly just look at it. A DAMN CHOP GOT THROUGH THE BONES! And Liger bomb couldnt...... screw that madness!


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## Brawnie (Mar 17, 2011)

This whole discussion is based on people who don't read the manga well..
A was obviously stronger then sasuke during there fight.
Sasuke couldn't follow one single movement of A even with his sharingan, this is why sasuke resorted to his susano'o/amaterasu combi. A could have waited to try and find a way to hit sasuke in the front, but since he was so pissed he decided to simply knock sasuke over so he could directly hit the front where there was no susano'o. 
So A chose to do what he did and after he did, gaara stopped the attack because he said: '' I still want to talk to sasuke'' , 
This means that sasuke would be dead if raikage managed to hit sasuke.
At this point though, with a complete susano'o and after that even an EMS, Raikage obviously doesn't stand a chance against sasuke anymore.
but during there fight, A was obviously the winner.
A had the upper hand 95% of the time..
Not even worth a discussion


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## Superstars (Mar 17, 2011)

Judecious said:


> Vs a sasuke who didn't even have a complete MS yet he would have killed Raikage if gaara didn't block Amaterasu.



Hold on, the same Amateratsu Raikage punched through and clobbered Saskue?


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 17, 2011)

Im beginning to find it funny now that when we have to discuss Sasuke's strength it practically becomes his Mangekyo's strength/capabilities instead of his own strength. Like my homie Deidara once said....that boy confuses his blessed genes for his own strength...but no hate ....hehe


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## BrickStyle (Mar 17, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> spiritmight said:
> 
> 
> > Typical.
> ...



Dunno bout you, but i gave the guy some reps.


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## sinjin long (Mar 17, 2011)

just watched the anime for this fight,and after seeing it its blatently obvious raikage had the upper hand the entire time.

cracked susanno's ribs in multiple places multiple times.

 too fast for even sharingan to keep up with.

the very fact sasuke had to use susanno and amaterasu in tandem is proof he was on the defensive the entire time.

chidori was largely negated

raikages hand was a self inflicted wound,that amounted too nil,he was completely willing & able to keep going 

chopped sasuke thru susanno so hard he cracked it again, multiple times with one blow, and even with his "absolute"defense protecting him,sasuke still violently coughed up blood.

look at them afterwards,raikage has a lil cut on his massive chest,not counting the hand as it was basically self inflicted,sasuke on the other hand is all sorts of fd up,spitting up blood,cant hardly stand,clothes all fd up and dirty,bruises,visual wear and tear on his face and arms,not counting the blood from sauces eye as that too is self inflicted damage from amaterasu.

love the anime episodes of manga canon. you can only glean so much info from static one shot manga panels,often misinterpreted by bias,but with fluid movement and continuity, in addition to sound,and taken together with the actual manga,it often sheds more light on what actually occurred

case in point- enton:kagesuchi,in the manga people have argued that the flames took solid form,but seeing it in motion and not just a snapshot,they actually retain the flame charecteristic of non solid form and still undulate like normal amaterasu flames.


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## Uchihα Itαchi (Mar 17, 2011)

People can both underrate him, and overrate him. He's underrated by some, and overrated by many.
I'm currently waiting for him to show his full power until I label him weak or strong.
Though, seeing how underrated Gaara is, I'm saying that Gaara is stronger than him. Could just be an opinion as well.


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## tgm2x (Mar 17, 2011)

ItachiGaara said:


> People can both underrate him, and overrate him. He's underrated by some, and overrated by many.
> I'm currently waiting for him to show his full power until I label him weak or strong.



This


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## BlinkST (Mar 17, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> too fast for even sharingan to keep up with.


That's not exactly true.



sinjin long said:


> the very fact sasuke had to use susanno and amaterasu in tandem is proof he was on the defensive the entire time.


Conversely, shouldn't the fact that Raikage was using chakra to enhance his reflexes, speed, and defenses prove he was on the defensive the entire time as well?



sinjin long said:


> chidori was largely negated


Conversely, Susanoo negated Liger bomb.



sinjin long said:


> raikages hand was a self inflicted wound,that amounted too nil,he was completely willing & able to keep going


Conversely, the chop Sasuke received didn't exactly prevent him from getting up and running off. The same chop he used to decapitate himself.



sinjin long said:


> case in point- enton:kagesuchi,in the manga people have argued that the flames took solid form,but seeing it in motion and not just a snapshot,they actually retain the flame charecteristic of non solid form and still undulate like normal amaterasu flames.


Using the anime is misleading in this case. The flames were depicted as bits like actual fire fire, where as in the manga Amaterasu consistently has a "solid" form consisting of lines sprung from a single orb. It's a very unique and distinct design. The difference between the two isn't negligable.


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## sinjin long (Mar 17, 2011)

Blinx said:


> That's not exactly true.
> 
> 
> Conversely, shouldn't the fact that Raikage was using chakra to enhance his reflexes, speed, and defenses prove he was on the defensive the entire time as well?
> ...



the part about amaterasu you stated ,is probably only due to the medium in which its presented,in a still manga panel,there are only so many ways to depict movement,either changing shape or using movement markers(lines,actual depictions of different location) but it has been pretty consistent in the anime ,where it is not limited to stills and can be drawn with fuid movement.

cmon,sasuke didnt get rite up and bounce away,you know what i meant.

ok i see what you mean about the shroud, but in this instance raikage was the initiator,sasuke the reactor.

only thing sasuke initiated was amaterasu,with 0 effect due to raikage's speed,and excluding the mutual elbow/chidori clash,raikage was the offensive fighter the rest of the time taking the fight to sasuke,sasuke was forced to only reacting.
therefore sasuke was the one forced to defend,and raikage the aggressor,that is what i meant,perhaps i should of explained it better


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## BlinkST (Mar 17, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> the part about amaterasu you stated ,is probably only due to the medium in which its presented,in a still manga panel,there are only so many ways to depict movement,either changing shape or using movement markers(lines,actual depictions of different location) but it has been pretty consistent in the anime ,where it is not limited to stills and can be drawn with fuid movement.


I don't think that's the case where we're working with the design of a jutsu. The anime makes it look like fire as we know it, while the manga consistently presented it as an orb with lines spread from it. It looks more like Kakuzu's threads than fire. I also don't understand why people are hung up on trying to portray Amaterasu as limited to the physics of real world fire. It's chakra, something design to mimic an element. It's the same with lightning nature and the others.



sinjin long said:


> cmon,sasuke didnt get rite up and bounce away,you know what i meant.


He pretty much got up immediately after the attack when he started talking to Gaara. He didn't run off because he was going try Amaterasu on him.



sinjin long said:


> ok i see what you mean about the shroud, but in this instance raikage was the initiator,sasuke the reactor.


It doesn't really matter when who did what if the battle was a stalemate for the most part. Sasuke tries Chidori and fails thanks to the armor. Raikage tries his most powerful attack and fails thanks to Susanoo. Sasuke tries Amaterasu and fails thanks to his reflexes. Raikage tries his chop and fails thanks to Sasuke's reflexes.


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## jimbob631 (Mar 17, 2011)

Wait, are people actually saying Sasuke's amaterasu was solid?  So not only does Sasuke have a whole different set of rules applied to him, his fire also gets to be solid when he's about to die?  Hopefully I read that wrong.


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## sinjin long (Mar 17, 2011)

how does cracking susanno,driving sasuke to the ground,coughing up blood= failing thanks to sasuke's reflexes?

and the drawing of amaterasu? its is still fire,special fire with special conditions,but fire just the same


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 17, 2011)

Blinx said:


> Using the anime is misleading in this case. The flames were depicted as bits like actual fire fire, where as in the manga Amaterasu consistently has a "solid" form consisting of lines sprung from a single orb. It's a very unique and distinct design. The difference between the two isn't negligable.



If anything would be misleading, it would be the manga itself cuz....nothing is moving. So everything is still. I could mistake water for a solid floor TBH if the artist does a bad job, lol. Tsk tsk tsk...


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## BlinkST (Mar 17, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> how does cracking susanno,driving sasuke to the ground,coughing up blood= failing thanks to sasuke's reflexes?


Look at it as how Sasuke ended up in harm's way when he used Chidori. Regardless of the outcome, Raikage couldn't hit Sasuke _before_ he ignited the Susanoo, which is obviously what he _intended_, otherwise he wouldn't have _paused_ for a second. For that reason I consider the attack a rather obvious failure, and why I reference Sasuke's reflexes. Presuming he was slower, the attack would have succeeded faster than he could ignite and distribute Amaterasu across Susanoo's bones.



sinjin long said:


> and the drawing of amaterasu? its is still fire,special fire with special conditions,but fire just the same


It's chakra, something mimicing fire, but the same rules don't exactly apply. Same with Raikage's lightning armor, which boosts his reflexes and becomes a shield instead of killing him. 

Note that fire can't really exist without something to burn in the first place. Amaterasu on the other hand was casually defying gravity with nothing to burn, and thus no fuel.


----------



## sinjin long (Mar 17, 2011)

are you equating susanno/amaterasu activation during the chop to sasukes reflexes?

after its been pretty much established that its instant ala itachi and a bolt of lightning????

sorry,doesn't count as a+ for sasuke in my book,thats just how it is,pretty much instant one the decision is made mentally

besides if you notice sasuke activated it as soon as he lost tracking of raikage even BEFORE raikage approached from the side,he stopped b/c of amaterasu,NOT he stopped AND then sasuke put up amaterasu


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## BlinkST (Mar 17, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> are you equating susanno/amaterasu activation during the chop to sasukes reflexes?
> 
> after its been pretty much established that its instant ala itachi and a bolt of lightning????


I consider it to be indicative of Sasuke's reflexes because he actually has to trigger it in time. It's not a tailed beast or something of that sort, that it manifests on it's own accord. 

However, I was talking to you about Sasuke igniting Susanoo and spreading out Amaterasu before Raikage could attack, and thus why the attack was a failure.



sinjin long said:


> besides if you notice sasuke activated it as soon as he lost tracking of raikage even BEFORE raikage approached from the side,he stopped b/c of amaterasu,NOT he stopped AND then sasuke put up amaterasu


I don't believe so. This parallels the VoTE situation, where Sasuke rather clearly, sees that Naruto will circle behind him and moves out of the way in time. 

are told is even more damaging
are told is even more damaging

The gray image is the prediction while the lighter image is Naruto actually catching up. I presumed the same thing happened in his situation with Raikage, where he saw that Raikage would circle behind him and chose to ignite the Susanoo so he doesn't touch him.


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## sinjin long (Mar 17, 2011)

i disagree, sasuke was trying to track raikage,but couldn't follow and due to not knowing where the attack would come from,then activates amaterasu,Karin pretty much attests to this,then raikage appears opposite of where sasuke is looking,pauses at the realization that sauce has shrouded susanno in amaterasu,THEN proceeds to chop.


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## BlinkST (Mar 17, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> i disagree, sasuke was trying to track raikage,but couldn't follow and due to not knowing where the attack would come from,then activates amaterasu,Karin pretty much attests to this,then raikage appears opposite of where sasuke is looking,pauses at the realization that sauce has shrouded susanno in amaterasu,THEN proceeds to chop.


It was explictly shown that contrary to Raikage's beliefs, Sasuke could see him just fine and dodge attacks, even though he was supposed to be slower.



Sasuke as I demonstrated with the Naruto example, would have knew exactly where Raikage would strike and what course of action to take. Remember: Raikage was _circling_ Sasuke just like Naruto did. Even if someone moves out of his vision, he will still see the images predicting their movements. 

Makes no sense to me that the moment Raikage is ready to swing and mentally says his attack, Sasuke ignites Susanoo and spreads out the flames by sheer coincidence and looks in his direction, just as what happened when Naruto tried the same tactic. Whether he is seeing him or hearing him of course, his reflexes have to be roughly on the same level to react the way he did.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 17, 2011)

Turrin said:


> *IpHr0z3nI*
> I'm going to make this as simple as possible.
> 
> Against Bee Sasuke used MS Four times: Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and to extinguish the flames on Karin and Bee's Kwarimi
> ...



Was that a temporary problem or a permanent one? 

Kishi has never elaborated on such, and Sasauke never behaved as if it was a permanent problem.





> Sasuke against Raikage used MS Four times: Susano'o, Amaterasu, Enton Flame Shield, and Enton Kagutsuchi


And still showed no signs of the deterioration in eye sight at that particular moment, even using it 4 times against Bee didn't affect Sasuke until several days later.

Sasuke fought several individuals and used MS, several times post Raikage. 
So your best argument is that Raikage was a contributor in the the deterioration of Sasuke's vision.

Remember he fought Raikage + Gara + Mei + Danzo + Kakashi all of which Sasuke used MS against. Thus Raikage is merely a small fraction in the deterioration of MS. And judging from Madara's comment again.

Enton Kagutsuchi

It was the constant use of Susano that was the main contributor to his quick decent into blindness.

Gara, Mei, Danzo, Kakashi all bared witness to stronger variations of Susano. 







> And he was even stacking MS Techniques, using Amaterasu/Enton at the same time as Susano'o, which we are told is even more damaging.


He did the same vs. Gara as well. 

Enton Kagutsuchi

Again Raikage did nothing special.




> So the manga cannon dictates that Sasuke did receive lasting damage from his battle with Raikage, since eyesight should decay just as badly as it did from his fight with Bee, if not worse. Both Sasuke and Raikage came out of that fight with lasting damage, Raikage lost and arm and Sasuke lost a portion of his eyesight.


No manga dictates that the efforts against Raikage was merely a fraction of what lead to the lasting damage. Arguably the smallest at that. 

Sasuke's eyes sight doesn't diminish immediately after  using a MS jutsu, you proved that with Bee. Sasuke fought multiple individuals within the same window. Thus Raikage lasting damage, is simply a fraction in the cumulative total that led to Sasuke's blindness.

Sasuke's decay in eye sight post Bee, was never confirmed to be a Permanent or temporary thing. The problem with you Turrin, as you like to jump into deep waters with your argument without out a flotation device. You want to argue the arbitrary, the details that only the author could/would known. 

You provided a panel that shows a hinder in Sasuke's vision, yet their is no signs that is a permanent one, you want me to take what you say at your word when I could easily bring up variables to refute your points. 

I don't argue speculation because it cannot be thoroughly proven in fine detail by the manga. 

But even if Sasuke's eye did diminish in some degree, it pales in comparison to Raikage injury. Raikage loss an arm, at best Sasuke vision dropped slightly. My vision is extremely poor, my prescription gets stronger and stronger with each visit to the eye doctor, but it pales in comparison to the loss in function of a limb.

The adjustment to the loss of an arm, is a lot longer and harder than the deterioration of vision. That's because vision loss is easily corrected, Sasuke has already fixed his problem.

Raikage's arm situation has not been fixed, and shows no future sign of ever being fixed. Raikage's arm situation, is most likely the reason Kishi has kept him out of battle. 



> If your going to say that such damage didn't stop Sasuke from fighting on, this applies to Raikage too, since getting hit with Amaterasu flames on his arm did not stop Raikage from fighting on ether. It was Gaara who stopped Raikage, not the damage.


No it doesn't, as Raikage needed medical attention to continue fighting. You are ignoring this Turrin.

Raikage had to pause amputate his arm, and get it patched up.

Has Raikage ever been seen in a serious battle sense then?

Has Sasuke? Yes, in fact immediately after battling Raikage, he was placed against Gara and the gang, and soon after Mizukage. 





> If your going to say that Sasuke didn't care about the damage he received from his fight with Raikage, this also applies to the Raikage who did not care about losing his arm. In-fact Raikage seemed to care less than Sasuke, since he didn't even go out of his way to replace his arm [which he could have], while Sasuke did go out of his way to replace his eyes, even going back on his pledge to not take Itachi's eyes.


I didn't say he did or didn't, you are just reading what you want at this point, and I will no longer continue to respond if you continue in this manner. You are not reading my post thoroughly just is why your responses have not been accurate on anything I'm saying outright.

It is not the issue of Sasuke caring or not, it's the fact that they did not appear to hinder him. Sasuke was still just as proficient before as after, for the 100 time. 

Sasuke replaced his eyes, because he had shit to take care off, it their is actually away to replace his eyes.

Raikage has show no signs to actually be able to replace his arms, so your point is mute. Replacement of of limbs have all been done in arbitrary ways, and only the villain side has ever accomplished it.

Sasuke eyes was also not in that condition immediately after Raikage fight so your point is mute. 

You want to give credit to the Raikage for shit, that several peoples had a contribution in doing. You Ironically are proven my point that Kishi depicts the Raikage vs. Sasuke as one sided. 







> You also say losing life span is irrelevant, but it is relevant because it shows the damage that Raikage caused Sasuke during their battle. You belittle the effect of Raikage cuasing Sasuke to lose a portion of his life span, but if I lived in the Naruto world I would take losing my arm, which can be easily replaced as we saw with Deidara, over losing years of my life which can ether never be recovered or its at least FAR harder to do so.


It is irrelevant, because things such as life span only come into play if a person actually lives his life span. Raikage's arm effects him RIGHT NOW. He does not have to wait to see with his injuries.

If Ssauke lives to die of natural causes, your point would have some relevancy as of now it doesn't. 





> You can say that Sasuke didn't care about losing a portion of his life span, but Raikage didn't care about losing his arm, so once again you would be applying a double standard. Thus what were left with is Sasuke lost a portion of his life span and eyesight, while Raikage lost an arm.


Again I didn't say he did or didn't care. I am simply saying that it is an irrelevant factor. For this injury to take effect Sasuke would have to live and die in a particular way.

Just like the negative effects of smoking is irrelevant if a person is shot to death is it not? 



[QUOTE[As for the effects of the Raikage battle not effecting Sasuke in his other battles in the Kages arc, that once again goes against Manga Cannon:

​[/QUOTE]
Actually their are clauses that Mizukage doesn't know which makes that statement invalid.

She is unaware of the side effects of Susano
we saw with Deidara

She is also unaware that Sasuke is low on chakara.
we saw with Deidara

She is also unaware of the events that took place in the Raikage vs. Sasuke battle.

You already know here assessment is invalid, but out of desperation you decided to pull the actions of a troll thus wasting my time outright. 

It would be like saying Sasuke killed Zabuza because of this
we saw with Deidara

When statements such as these are made they are presumed invalid, as they are simply reiterating on what they know. However we as the overseers of the manga, we have all the key details of of all the major events that took place on panel.

In other words Turrin, nice try.



> If you say that Sasuke could pull the same jutsu after the Raikage fight, that he could before, once again this can be said about the Raikage as well. The only Jutsu Raikage has been shown to use is his Raiton Armor and we clearly see him using this Jutsu after his fight with Sasuke:
> 
> ​


we saw with Deidara
He could pull the same liger bomb, which requires two hands? He could performed the same chop with the same hand?


You forget that Raikage, is primarily a Taijutsu fighter right? His hand to hand game has severely diminished with one arm. 



> So once again this assertion goes against Manga Cannon.


No. once again you are dead wrong.



> Than You say Raikage's injuries were more severe because they are more visually obvious, but such an argument is based on aesthetics, which you have already said is a _"petty argument"_, so now that your turning around and using an aesthetic based argument in favor of Sasuke, once again shows your double standards.


Sasuke can mimic to a T every move he pulled off in that fight, Raikage couldn't.

You post a pic of Raikage after he is all patched up and say his injury wasn't more severe.
we saw with Deidara

An "Aesthetic" wound would require it to be only added for visual purpose. Losing an arm is not.

Losing an arm is a significant handicap, especially for a taijutsu fighter. Raikage would have to alter his approach to battle, and exclude any maneuvers that required to use of two hands. 
No more of this
we saw with Deidara

No more of this
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

No more of this
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

No more of this
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

No more of this
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

And especially no more of this
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

Clearly it is not only visually obvious, it impacts his approach to battle, and everyday life greatly. 

You lost this battle Turrin, and you post starts to make less and less sense with each new entry.



> This is not to mention the fact that losing ones arm does not mean, that they are going to loose the fight or even lost the Initiative in that specific fight. For example see Deidara vs Gaara [1]. So Raikage losing his arm doesn't mean jack squat about who the victor of that fight would have been or who would have come out of that fight best, if there was a real conclusion.


The fight is irrelevant it was interrupted, but just like the Rock lee vs. Sasuke was judged in lee favor. Sasuke vs. Raikage is judged in Sasuke's favor.

He landed more, did more damage, and the odds are in his favor to come out A ok if the fight were not interrupted.

Don't use the same tired argument another post did, especially Forlong of all people as it has already been refuted. Gara vs. Deidara had a conclusion. Deidara may have lost an arm, but Gara lost his life. 


I also don't see Gara going on to take on several Akatsuki members.

The fight heavily favored Sasuke end of story good sir. 



> Finally you suggest that Kishi keeping Raikage from fighting Sasuke again, means Sasuke had the advantage over Raikage, unless you can read the author's mind there is no way you can possibly know this. Keeping Raikage out of the fight may have been more for Sasuke's benefit than Raikage's, since that way Sasuke didn't have 2 Kages and 4 Jonin to contend with at once. Really there is no way to tell what the author had in mind. Though you just assuming its something in favor of Sasuke is another example of your double standards.


No. good sir. This part of my post had nothing to do with my argument. It was merely to point out the unfair treatment of Raikage IMO. It wasn't that big of a fight to warrant a loss of a limb(especially to a taijutsu fighter).

Mizukage/Gara/Durai etc. etc. all got to skirmish against Sasuke, while revealing their abilities with no bad consequences.

It didn't matter if they contended him at once or not, Sasuke would have still manage to escape.
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

Remember both Raikage + Gara + 4 Jounins were caught in the debris. 

Lol I can't get over the fact that you argue the Raikage did good, yet you can not seem to avoid adding other Kage's, or ommitting them when it doesn't suit you.

The fact are this. 

Sasuke IMMEDIATELY AFTER RAIKAGE BATTLE, did not need medical attention, and showed no signs of diminish in eye sight (YET), nor does he show that he is hindered by fighting the Raikage.

Raikage on the other hand, had to seek medical attention IMMEDIATELY after his battle with Sasuke. And had to stand idle, while others fight his battle for him.

How embarrassing must it be for Raikage to leave the summit with two arms, and come back with one.





> There you go IpHr0z3nI I have answered all your questions with direct scans form the manga and your own words. You can deny it all you want, but its right there in black and white.


To bad your scans do not support your argument or are damn well false information.

But that is irrelevant anyway as the only can that matters is this.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Where's Raikage?


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## sinjin long (Mar 17, 2011)

WHAT? # 1 we're not talking part 1 vote nar/sas. we are talking raikage/sasuke- so you are going against manga depiction,manga dialog,and anime reaffirmation??!!

that scan is of V1 shroud raikage,once raikage amped it up,it was over,no sharingan sight for sasuke.

its already a fact,manga and anime both that sasuke was NOT looking at raikage,and had no idea where the attack would come from,only that one would come.

THATS THE WHOLE REASON OF COVERING SUSANNO W/AMATERASU!!!

its shown in both mediums,Karin states the reason for the viewer/reader in both mediums!!

raikage goes shroud v2,sasuke tries amaterasu-fails,raikage shunshins faster than sharingan can follow,to the left from sauce POV,due to this amaterasu covers susanno,raikage appears from behind/side coming from the right,STOPS/PAUSES,

THEN sasuke looks over to the right (from the looking position all the way to the left),raikage announces attack name and proceeds with chop.

how the hell from that^ do you come up with sasuke COULD track the whole time,and KNEW exactly where raikage was the whole time.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 17, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> just watched the anime for this fight,and after seeing it its blatently obvious raikage had the upper hand the entire time.


You do know that this is the Konoha library right? That means only the manga is allowed. But I am going to humor your point anyway.



> cracked susanno's ribs in multiple places multiple times.


And how does this equal upper hand? I doubt Sasuke cares if his Susano got broken, as long as he didn't get broken.



> too fast for even sharingan to keep up with.


And what did he did with that increase in speed? 

The minute he got the upper hand in speed, the battle was basically over.

Raikage dodges Amaterasu.

Sasuke then sets up Amaterasu to surround Susano, but Raikage manage to blitz and chop through it.

Really he didn't get a chance to utilize his new found speed much, Sasuke countered/adjusted to quickly. 



> the very fact sasuke had to use susanno and amaterasu in tandem is proof he was on the defensive the entire time.


So Sasuke wasn't on the offense here

Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

Or here

Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

Or here

Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

Or here

[1]

I'm sure these are present in the anime as well. Are these not considered offensive maneuvers? Considering they were made with the intention to cause harm to the Raikage I would argue they are.



> chidori was largely negated


What a concidence so was BOTH OF THE RAIKAGE'S ATTACKS.




> raikages hand was a self inflicted wound,that amounted too nil,he was completely willing & able to keep going


You cannot do this. You cannot give Raikage credit for landing a hit on Sasuke, without giving credit to Sasuke for taking his arm.

That was the cost of business good sir. Just like you have to give up 60 bucks in order to purchase the new call of duty game. 

If you refuse to give credit to Sasuke for taking his arm, then Raikage gets no credit for striking Sasuke, it's as simple as that. 



> chopped sasuke thru susanno so hard he cracked it again, multiple times with one blow, and even with his "absolute"defense protecting him,sasuke still violently coughed up blood.


Yet, the damage he did was comparable to the chidori by Sasuke.

What 
[1]

is

the 

difference

[1]

Both caused blood? check

Both left marks? Check

Both didn't affect the other much? Check

I also find it funny again how you give credit to Raikage for his chop, but don't give credit of the wound inflected by Sasuke, in order to land that chop.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either you are going to count the Raikage's chop, and Sasuke taking his arm. Or you are going to disregard both.



> look at them afterwards,raikage has a lil cut on his massive chest,not counting the hand as it was basically self inflicted,sasuke on the other hand is all sorts of fd up,spitting up blood,cant hardly stand,clothes all fd up and dirty,bruises,visual wear and tear on his face and arms,not counting the blood from sauces eye as that too is self inflicted damage from amaterasu.


That is not a little cut.

Half of Sasuke's fingers are embedded in the Raikage's chest. Look at the your hand right now, and see what half of your fingers is. That is about a two INCH deep wound. That is a stab wound, not a cut.

And the icing on the cake came with the loss of the arm not the stab in the chess.

Sasuke was spitting up blood? What page was this? Could hardly stand? Thus is why he continued to fight more Kage's. Oh I love how we people select reading.

His clothes being dirty = nothing. How often does Sasuke change clothes again?  

And dirty clothes compared to a nub on Raikage's left arm? I take dirty clothes.



> love the anime episodes of manga canon. you can only glean so much info from static one shot manga panels,often misinterpreted by bias,but with fluid movement and continuity, in addition to sound,and taken together with the actual manga,it often sheds more light on what actually occurred



Too bad this is the Library, which only counts the manga good sir.



> case in point- enton:kagesuchi,in the manga people have argued that the flames took solid form,but seeing it in motion and not just a snapshot,they actually retain the flame charecteristic of non solid form and still undulate like normal amaterasu flames.



Once again the anime is not cannon. I think the anime has it's own personal section.


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## BlinkST (Mar 17, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> WHAT? # 1 we're not talking part 1 vote nar/sas. we are talking raikage/sasuke- so you are going against manga depiction,manga dialog,and anime reaffirmation??!!


Try a little harder to put it in perspective. At the valley situation, we saw Sasuke having a tough time keeping up with Naruto's movements. This represents Raikage with the minimal shroud.

After which, Sasuke can begin to see Naruto's movements and even predict them. Naruto then gets faster with the fox shroud, equivalent to Raikage's "beast level" chakra. Yet still, Sasuke could still see Naruto's movements. 



sinjin long said:


> that scan is of V1 shroud raikage,once raikage amped it up,it was over,no sharingan sight for sasuke.


There's more evidence of the contrary.



sinjin long said:


> its already a fact,manga and anime both that sasuke was NOT looking at raikage,and had no idea where the attack would come from,only that one would come.


I'm not sure what you're talking about; Sasuke doesn't have to be constantly staring at a target to know it's movements as was shown when he was still tracking Naruto.



sinjin long said:


> its shown in both mediums,Karin states the reason for the viewer/reader in both mediums!!


See states he can't "keep up" with his shunshin speed in that he can't land a hit i.e Amaterasu, but he was still keeping up.


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## RosenWitch (Mar 17, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The fight is irrelevant it was interrupted, but just like the Rock lee vs. Sasuke was judged in lee favor. Sasuke vs. Raikage is judged in Sasuke's favor.
> 
> He landed more, did more damage, and the odds are in his favor to come out A ok if the fight were not interrupted.


See, that's not exactly a valid comparison. Of course Lee vs Sasuke was judged in the former's favour; the gap in skill was undeniable, and there was really nothing Sasuke could've done to best Lee. Not similarly, A had dealt out more damage; it was his recklessness that did him in: he chose to thrust past Amaterasu, and showed minimal exertion thereafter even after losing his arm, only taking a backseat to Gaara and the others' appearances.

Sasuke was _barely_ managing to stay in the race. His ''victory'' over A was handed to him on a silver platter and should by no means be discrediting A's feats, which had Sasuke on the defensive for the most part.


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## sinjin long (Mar 17, 2011)

love how now you're forced to hide behind the forum,what did i say 2 months ago?

that perhaps your POV and interprtation were incorrect good sir. what you think happened/interpreted is NOT what the manga depicted good sir. its what YOU THOUGHT it depicted,only seeing what you wanted to see. the anime confirms this good sir.
and don't go crying the anime isn't canon,this ain't no filler episode,it simply the animated version of MANGA CANON.

that why dont we both lets wait till the anime is released and then in conjuction with the manga we can perhaps settle the disagreements on what actually happened.

now that time has come,and the majority of your facts and your POV have been proven wrong,but rather than admit your mistake,or incorrect interpretation you have to resort to hide behind "this is the manga section" "this is the library" LOL

PATHETIC

be a man and show some maturity,and just admit you were mistaken. i would actually respect that.its not the end of the world,you could be just like naruto,and eat a little crow,just imagine its from Itachi and itll prolly be easier for you to swallow.

but okay,tell me which section you would like to discuss it in,or just PM me and we'll get to the bottom of it.

please watch the latest episode,que it up along with the relevant manga scans, and come with it.

im anxiously waiting... so we'll see, are you truly bias or is there hope for you yet....

cant wait to see the "this is library/manga section" "i'm right, the animators depicted it different" excuses


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 17, 2011)

RosenWitch said:


> See, that's not exactly a valid comparison. Of course Lee vs Sasuke was judged in the former's favour; the gap in skill was undeniable, and there was really nothing Sasuke could've done to best Lee. Not similarly, A had dealt out more damage; it was his recklessness that did him in: he chose to thrust past Amaterasu, and showed minimal exertion thereafter even after losing his arm, only taking a backseat to Gaara and the others' appearances.
> 
> Sasuke was _barely_ managing to stay in the race. *His ''victory'' over A was handed to him on a silver platter and should by no means be discrediting A's feats, which had Sasuke on the defensive for the most part.*



Amen, you said the best shid, lol


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 17, 2011)

RosenWitch said:


> See, that's not exactly a valid comparison. Of course Lee vs Sasuke was judged in the former's favour; the gap in skill was undeniable, and there was really nothing Sasuke could've done to best Lee. Not similarly, A had dealt out more damage; it was his recklessness that did him in: he chose to thrust past Amaterasu, and showed minimal exertion thereafter even after losing his arm, only taking a backseat to Gaara and the others' appearances.



No. in fact it is a very good comparison. 

Both fights were interrupted however judging from the amount of damage delivered, and who had the advantage before the interruption.  One could easily call Rock lee the winner.

You are right in the fact they both fights are not exactly the same, but then again what fights are.

However Sasuke definitely outclassed the Raikage not necessarily it skill like with rock lee, but in being the better ninja.

Forget all the injuries delivered and what not, as I already argued that.

Both Raikage and Sasuke were not having one of their better days, in the being jolly department.

The difference is Sasuke, never let his anger get the better of him.

The difference is Sasuke, made the better adjustments.

When Raikage got the advantage in speed, he did not panick. Instead just like the top class ninja he is, he devised a plan to make the Raikage speed advantage null and void.

By combining Amatearsu + Susano the Raikage only had one of two choices.

Continue to press and attack sasuke, risking being harmed by Amaterasu, or back back up and essentially give Sasuke time to devise a strategy to land an attack.

Sasuke showed quick thinking on two occasions. 

The final attack was also where Sasuke showed that his level head, and ability to think of on his feet made him the better ninja.

here you go.

The only one to be confirmed coming out that attack badly was Raikage.

here you go.

I don't understand why the Raikage gets a pass for letting his anger get the best of him. 

Didn't in that Lee battle, the battle vs. Bee, arrogance got the better of Sasuke? And he received no pass for that .

Raikage's actions were stupid,  and his anger very well got the better of him. But isn't that part of being a ninja? Isn't that the first rule they teach you in the ninja academy? 




> Sasuke was _barely_ managing to stay in the race. His ''victory'' over A was handed to him on a silver platter and should by no means be discrediting A's feats, which had Sasuke on the defensive for the most part.


I don't understand this thinking either. Are people really going to knock him for using Susano? Didn't Raikage have a shroud, that served the same function as Susano? Sasuke would have killed him twice before Raikage even got the chance to ever pull of the liger bomb, if not for his shroud.

Raikage barely did anything, and when he did something it came out the cost of his arm.

A's feats? What feats dodging Amaterasu? Or blitzing the sharingan? I don't think anyone can take those feats away from him. I often stated he was the fastest none S/T jutsu person in the manga.

However I don't condone his decision making vs. Sasuke. 

Sasuke was holding back, and still making the Raikage look like an udder fool. How embarrassing must it be for him to return to the Kage summit, short handed and find out his brother is still alive thus making the loss of his arm in vane.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 17, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> love how now you're forced to hide behind the forum,what did i say 2 months ago?


Because I don't watch the anime.

Because the only cannon, is the manga. I was once like you, and often asked the other members, why the manga cannot be considered cannon, then I proceeded to watch the filler arcs, etc. etc. and had my answer.

The anime is not made by the Arthur, thus the extra they add isn't manga cannon.



> that perhaps your POV and interprtation were incorrect good sir. what you think happened/interpreted is NOT what the manga depicted good sir. its what YOU THOUGHT it depicted,only seeing what you wanted to see. the anime confirms this good sir.


Couldn't the same be said of you? Or anybody.

But as I told you two months ago; I am sure I have more knowledge on this manga than you good sir.

As I told you two months ago, the evidence, as in what we've seen from the manga points in my favor good sir; as I don't argue speculation, or try to steer away from it.

My points are derived from the panel, and are based off what we see in the panel.




> and don't go crying the anime isn't canon,this ain't no filler episode,it simply the animated version of MANGA CANON.


It is filler. Everything that is not shown in the manga is filler. Thus is how they actually manage to extend the fights, thus is how they actually manage to keep it interesting.

They must elaborate on what is essentially stilll page. If you want to get an example of this, look at the Sasuke vs. Killerbee sword scene, or the Hinato vs. Deva path seen. Or the Deva vs. the Kyubi scene.

That is all filler, using manga cannon as a foundation.

As I said before this is the Konoha library, in which one of the descriptions under the heading is. "Come here to discuss the Japanese Managa"

Does the anime count as a Manga? 

The Anime has its own personal forums, and I happily posted there once. I was in an argument, and I tried to use the manga as evidence to support my claim. Then 3 kind gentlements/ladies kindly pointed out what section I was in, and told me that this section only takes into account the anime. Thus in my new found knowledge I sent a thank you before leaving, and never went back sense.

I am simply giving you that same fundamental fact. This section only incorporates is intended entirely to discuss manga facts. 



> that why dont we both lets wait till the anime is released and then in conjuction with the manga we can perhaps settle the disagreements on what actually happened.


Because the anime is cannon? I think you need to understand what the anime is; it is a show based of the manga, not the other way around.

You don't use the anime to support the manga, you use the manga to support the anime. The manga is written by the Aurthur, using entirely the Author's/editor's ideas. The anime is not.





> now that time has come,and the majority of your facts and your POV have been proven wrong,but rather than admit your mistake,or incorrect interpretation you have to resort to hide behind "this is the manga section" "this is the library" LOL


What has been proven wrong? 

And certainly not by you of all people.






> PATHETIC
> 
> be a man and show some maturity,and just admit you were mistaken. i would actually respect that.its not the end of the world,you could be just like naruto,and eat a little crow,just imagine its from Itachi and itll prolly be easier for you to swallow.


About what good sir. 

What have you proven wrong? 





> but okay,tell me which section you would like to discuss it in,or just PM me and we'll get to the bottom of it.


PM me, and I would be happy to school you there as well, just like usual.



> please watch the latest episode,que it up along with the relevant manga scans, and come with it.



What does the episode at to what is already in the manga? I failed to see how it supports your point. 

If the episode is based off the manga, then shouldn't I be able to reach the same conclusion from the manga?

The only way I could not is if it is filler, which ironically proves my point. 

Is the battle in motion supposed to sway my opinion?

Maybe is the sight of Raikage's massive biceps in motion?

I don't see how an episode could change ones view from the manga, without the addition of filler.



> im anxiously waiting... so we'll see, are you truly bias or is there hope for you yet....


Or it would prove you are in Aw of filler, thus already a lost cause.



> cant wait to see the "this is library/manga section" "i'm right, the animators depicted it different" excuses


As I said before I don't see how one can get a knew opinion of the fight after watching the anime, without the addition of fillers.

If something is depicted differently than it is a filler. As the manga is cannon, the anime is it not?

Edit: Watched it, and I do not see too much difference from the actual fight in the manga, but there are some key differences. The anime doesn't depict Raikage breaking through Susano at least not well. They seem to show him coughing blood, but omit the bruise out right.

They omitted a few things and FILLED in a few things. As I said before prior to watching it, if something is depicted different than it is filler. In the manga Raikage clear broke through Susano, in the manga he clearly left a mark. In the manga Sasuke never coughed up blood.

In the manga Sasuke's chidori had more of an impact, and the manga showed more details as how much Sasuke's raiton actually got through the shroud, and even drawing out blood. 

The fight was a bit rushed too me, and seems to be nothing more than a skirmish as I stated before. The problem is Raikage lost an arm in that skirmish.

The anime also depicts Raikage's blows as being less powerful, and the final leg drop of the Raikage never had a chance, as he seemed to not have any momentum going into the final exchange.

Kasagutchi spikes in the anime are more like stubs, less pointy than in the manga. But it seems to be more stubs, and more flames than it actually was. This portion of my post as nothing to do with my argument I am just rambling about the difference.

Overall the manga did a much better job of this fight than the anime. Which is a first, as the anime had a perfect record of improving fights.
The Raikage vs. Sasuke fight seem kind of rushed. And who ever did animation work for Raikage's shroud needs to be fired. 

I've long sense given up hope with the anime, and this fight doesn't compel me to become a fan again. Which is ironic considering I started Naruto with the anime. In fact the first time I read the manga was around the Jiraiya vs. Pain fight.


----------



## RosenWitch (Mar 18, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> No. in fact it is a very good comparison.
> 
> Both fights were interrupted however judging from the amount of damage delivered, and who had the advantage before the interruption.  One could easily call Rock lee the winner.
> 
> ...


The difference lies in how Lee vs Sasuke would've had a clear winner; there was no debating Sasuke's chances. Here, members are more or less arguing ''A vs Sasuke'' because the outcome was left largely ambiguous.

I'm not undermining Sasuke's brains. As a matter of fact, I was saying the Raikage's emotions had gotten the best of him. Had he fought tactfully, I'm sure A could've worn Sasuke out; Susanoo + Amaterasu is a formidable combination, but it wasn't about to defeat A; he quite literally threw himself into the fire.



> I don't understand this thinking either. Are people really going to knock him for using Susano? Didn't Raikage have a shroud, that served the same function as Susano? Sasuke would have killed him twice before Raikage even got the chance to ever pull of the liger bomb, if not for his shroud.
> 
> Raikage barely did anything, and when he did something it came out the cost of his arm.


Where have I ever made allusions to Susanoo? I find it just as part of Sasuke's arsenal as Raikage's shroud, too. However, you're sorely overestimating Sasuke if you believe A _*barely did anything*_ to the guy. You have to account for a few things, here: he may not have directly _damaged_ Sasuke a great deal, but he did _exert_ him. In the battle of attrition this should've turned out to be, that's a step below just as good.


> A's feats? What feats dodging Amaterasu? Or blitzing the sharingan? I don't think anyone can take those feats away from him. I often stated he was the fastest none S/T jutsu person in the manga.
> 
> However I don't condone his decision making vs. Sasuke.
> 
> Sasuke was holding back, and still making the Raikage look like an udder fool. How embarrassing must it be for him to return to the Kage summit, short handed and find out his brother is still alive thus making the loss of his arm in vane.


Sacrificing a whole limb to get a blow in was a poor choice. However, it goes to show that a single strike managed to shake Sasuke up fairly bad; I stand by my opinion that he was _not_ playing, and personally cannot fathom how he had been.

Mind you, I'm not here to argue whether or not the Raikage would've been able to powerhouse through Kagutsuchi had Gaara not interjected.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 18, 2011)

> No it doesn't, as Raikage needed medical attention to continue fighting. You are ignoring this Turrin.





This again?Seriously?  



> Raikage had to pause amputate his arm, and get it patched up.




Was A the one who stopped the fight?Chopping his arm took what?Half a sec?You need to stop the fight for that?


How much time was it before Deidara needed to patch his arm?Is Dei more durable than A?


I don't think Turrin is the one doing the ignoring.



> His ''victory'' over A was handed to him on a silver platter



I agree with this.If A doesn't give up *willingly * his limbs there is *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING *Sascake can do to him.Only thing he can do is drop on his knees and cry like a pussy about how much pain he is in!

Yes Sascake was handed the victory.This is not debatable!



> How embarrassing must it be for Raikage to leave the summit with two arms, and come back with one.



Lets ask Raikage:

"HMPH", "I have no regrets!"

?Thank you for your time 

And he doesn't even seek to replace it!He doesn't even try to hide it!What a man, so admirable 





> M a t t h e w said:
> 
> 
> > *Spoiler*: __



You mean the same way Amaterasu spread when A slapped that bitch Sascake?Oh wait..


:rofl


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 18, 2011)

RosenWitch said:


> The difference lies in how Lee vs Sasuke would've had a clear winner; there was no debating Sasuke's chances. Here, members are more or less arguing ''A vs Sasuke'' because the outcome was left largely ambiguous.


And Sasuke vs. Raikage would have had a clear winner as well.

With all the back and fourth argument about Sasuke's fact, the fact remains that Susano had a bigger stronger Susano if he felt his life was in danger.

We have seen this type of ambiguous clash before between A and Sasuke.
are told is even more damaging

And we both know who won that clash.

Isn't this similar to the chidori vs. elbow just repainted?
Just a different attacks.

The fact that the manga confirms Raikage's fate, and not Sasuke.

The fact that the previous exchanges were in Sasuke's favor

The fact that Raikage is not a 100% vs. breaking Susano.

The fact that Raikage is trying the same trick twice, and Sasuke is modifying his approach.

The fact that Sasuke had a bigger Susano at that point, but didn't feel the need to use it.

All these points are in Sasuke's favor.

Sure the final attack is still very much ambiguous, but the Sasuke coming out okay argument as a pillar to stand on, the other argument does not.

Apart of the "He would have died because he would" argument I've seen from  few individuals. 





> I'm not undermining Sasuke's brains. As a matter of fact, I was saying the Raikage's emotions had gotten the best of him. Had he fought tactfully, I'm sure A could've worn Sasuke out; Susanoo + Amaterasu is a formidable combination, but it wasn't about to defeat A; he quite literally threw himself into the fire.


I'm sure A could have worn him out as well, but the point is he didn't. He let his emotions get the better of him, something Sasuke hasn't let happen since part 1.

You are right Susano + Amateasu wasn't about to defeat A? Maybe, however Susano + Kusugutchi  was certainly about too.

are told is even more damaging

That was Raikage's leg, that would have been the end of Raikage's fight/ninja career at the very least.

I would have to disagree with you. In the emotional state Raikage was in, Susano + Amaterasu was working quite admirably. You have to think about it like this, if A is going to keep attacking, he is going to pay with each body part that connects. Their is only so many limbs you could sacrifice, and another arm, or a leg would have been the end of Raikage vs. Sasuke.

I would agree with you that Susano + Amaterasu wouldn't be enough for a thinking A. But a Thinking A was not, who was fighting Sasuke ,now was it?





> Where have I ever made allusions to Susanoo? I find it just as part of Sasuke's arsenal as Raikage's shroud, too. However, you're sorely overestimating Sasuke if you believe A _*barely did anything*_ to the guy. You have to account for a few things, here: he may not have directly _damaged_ Sasuke a great deal, but he did _exert_ him. In the battle of attrition this should've turned out to be, that's a step below just as good.




The battle of attrition as you are trying to highlight was not what this fight was. Sasuke proved post Raikage that he had lots of fuel left in the tank.

Sasuke still manage to pull on a Susano stage 1, an enton, Susano stage 2, Susano 1, chidori variant, Susano 1/2 and hold it.

Sasuke used more chakara fighting the other Kage's + Jounins + Samurai's than the Raikage.

This is what you and others are omitting. You are assuming that Sasuke only fought the Raikage at the summit, he did not. In fact if he would have left immediately after the Raikage, he would have been just fine. 

He slowed down, when he started abusing the higher states of Susano, as noted. And Mizukage was basically diminishing his chakara reserves by forcing him to maintain Susano or else.

You also must take into account that we are typical fatigue to amputation.

Raikage losing an arm, wouldn't be a big deal if his if he was not PRIMARILY A TAIJUSTU fighter. Raikage losing an arm, is the equivalence of Sasuke losing an eye. 

You cannot equate the loss of Raikage's arm to the loss of Madara's/Deidara's because for one they never went long without missing limbs. And two they were ninjutsu fighters not taijutsu fighters. Taijutsu is Raikage's first and only option in combat. 




> Sacrificing a whole limb to get a blow in was a poor choice. However, it goes to show that a single strike managed to shake Sasuke up fairly bad; I stand by my opinion that he was _not_ playing, and personally cannot fathom how he had been.


It didn't. The blow look moor serious than it actually was. In fact Raikage's blow was no different than Sasuke's chidori.
Sasuke's face already hand the marks and blood from his eye prior to the hit
are told is even more damaging
The only thing that was gained after the hit was the blood on the mouth and the bruise on the kneck
are told is even more damaging

The chidori to Raikage's chest
are told is even more damaging
Both drew blood 

and both
left a mark

Naruto took a hit from part 1 Sasuke that left a mark
are told is even more damaging
are told is even more damaging


Susano basically reduced the Raikage's attack tremendously. Sasuke being shaken up is a myth, as he was actually able to form a counter for Raikage's leg drop.

are told is even more damaging

But whether he was shaken up or not is irrelevant because the bottom line is.

The loss of an arm hurt much worse, produced more blood, and is a much bigger wound than anything Sasuke received in exchange. 


For me it's not just the injury Raikage gained, it's the lack of stategy that bothers me. He is a Kage much, much older, with much, much more experience than Sasuke. But Sasuke looked like the more mature/seasoned fighter. 

He seen the results of hitting Susano + Amaterasu, why would he try the same trick twice? 

If he and others deem him superior to Sasuke, than he wouldn't be willing to commit the equivalent of Suicide to kill him.

I herd individuals say that all Sasuke could do is hide behind Susano, but all A could do is trade limbs for pot shots.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 18, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> This again?Seriously?


You again seriously?

I don't understand your approach to an argument. You try to prove someone point wrong not with words but with humor and sarcasm.







> Was A the one who stopped the fight?Chopping his arm took what?Half a sec?You need to stop the fight for that?


But getting it patched up took a whole HOUR.

No I'm kidding, but it did require some down time in order to assess "The bleeding,oh the bleeding" "C stop the bleeding!!!!!!!!!!!"

are told is even more damaging

"So you can get back to slaughtering Sasuke" Raikage really????

Well here is your chance

are told is even more damaging

Oh wait Raikage what are you doing? 

Your arm has long sense been patched up, why aren't you returning to slaughter Sasuke?

I'm willing to bet, the only reason he hasn't joined that battle is because of that pillar right?

Sasuke is lucky that pillar is holding him back.




> How much time was it before Deidara needed to patch his arm?Is Dei more durable than A?


Apparently he was, as he didn't need someone too "Stop the bleeding"

are told is even more damaging

I don't know you tell me. Maybe Raikage is just a big baby who likes to throw temper tantrums?

Maybe losing arm might teach him to control his anger. 








> I don't think Turrin is the one doing the ignoring.


Considering he is ignoring points, like Wesley snipes avoided paying uncle sam, I would say he is.

He has yet to give a response to my question.

As far as ignoring your post, I have not. As chances are I already answered and addressed your points before either directly or through another poster. The ideas have not been unique and I pretty sure I repeated myself on almost 5 different occasions.

Just like a calculator, you enter the same question, and I am going to give you the same answer. This is to avoid contradiction, this is for literary consistency. 





> I agree with this.If A doesn't give up *willingly * his limbs there is *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING *Sascake can do to him.Only thing he can do is drop on his knees and cry like a pussy about how much pain he is in!



I don't understand this logic. Couldn't the same be said for the Raikage? Wasn't he the one giving up his limbs? Does this not imply that he could do *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE* surely if their was another option that didn't involve a third party, he would have taken it. 

Raikage is a taijutsu fighter, and Sasuke simply pulled a play out of Kimimaru's book. Kimimaru exploited Lee's lack of other options, by basically becoming a human cactus.

Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone
Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

Sasuke simply pull that same tactic only it was more advance.

You don't know what other tactics Sasuke could have came up with, you are essentially just saying that to make yourself feel better.

In fact despite the arguments of this being off topic, this debate generally highlights the weakness of Raikage.

It's not just the lack of quick thinking/adjusting, or letting his emotions get the better of him, but the lack of diversity.

He only has one trick to his arsenal, and if an opponent discovers away to negate that speed, just like Sasuke they could potentially beat Raikage.

Yes Sascake was handed the victory.This is not debatable!





> Lets ask Raikage:
> 
> "HMPH", "I have no regrets!"
> 
> ...


Having no regrets Raikage? That's great

but how do plan on performing the liger bomb in the future?

Raikage:??????????????


Having some Wood on Wood action with Hashirama's plant clone

The fact that Durai was beating himself over it, implies it was more serious than you are trying to admit.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 18, 2011)

> You again seriously?








> I don't understand your approach to an argument. You try to prove someone point wrong not with words but with humor and sarcasm.



Forgive me but didn't i address it by bringing up Deidara?

Ok lets try this again.. Where is it implied that A necessarily needed medical attention to be able to continue fighting?Deidara suggest the exact opposite!




> "So you can get back to slaughtering Sasuke" Raikage really????
> 
> Well here is your chance
> 
> ...



here you go.

here you go.

Damn you A!How dare you wait a moment before going after Sascake's ass?Inexcusable!




> *Apparently he was, as he didn't need someone too "Stop the bleeding"*
> 
> are told is even more damaging
> 
> ...




Yeah sure.. 




			
				narutotantaratard said:
			
		

> A would've been able to continue without medical assistance as well *but he just decided to do something productive while Gaara wastes his time talking with Sascake.*









> As far as ignoring your post, I have not. As chances are I already answered and addressed your points before either directly or through another poster. The ideas have not been unique and I pretty sure I repeated myself on almost 5 different occasions.



ORLY?A friendly reminder, what happened to "A is not stronger than Gaara?" 

btw i don't count you addressing some of my points that defend A with "You are off topic!Stop it!" as you addressing them properly!Especially since you were willing to argue them before 





> I don't understand this logic. Couldn't the same be said for the Raikage? Wasn't he the one giving up his limbs? Does this not imply that he could do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE surely if their was another option that didn't involve a third party, he would have taken it.



For the billionth time, A can trow kunais and bricks at Sascake till Sascake passes out.Sascake on the other hand can't do shit to A if A doesn't allow him!

^

btw that's another argument i presented before which you have failed to address properly.



And please enlighten me, what can Sascake do that A can't dodge with ease?




> Yes Sascake was handed the victory.This is not debatable!



Glad we agree 



> Having no regrets Raikage? That's great
> 
> but how do plan on performing the liger bomb in the future?
> 
> ...



If A wants to do "Liger Bomb" so much, he can easily replase his arm


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 18, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Forgive me but didn't i address it by bringing up Deidara?
> 
> Ok lets try this again.. Where is it implied that A necessarily needed medical attention to be able to continue fighting?Deidara suggest the exact opposite!


When he requested for it? 

You don't request for it if you don't need it?

Maybe he just wanted C, to put a band aid on it?

Or better yet kiss it to make it feel better?








> here you go.
> 
> here you go.
> 
> Damn you A!How dare you wait a moment before going after Sascake's ass?Inexcusable!



Add a boy Raikage pretending to big and brave after the big bad 16 year old has left the building.

No one would think any less of your ability to play hide and seek. 

But you are probably right, Raikage probably needed to some down time before going after Sasuke. To change his underwear, get lunch, gather his team, etc. etc.

Which would explain why someone who could dodge Amaterasu at point blank, manage to arrive at the summit at the same time as someone with a 3 in the speed department?
Link removed

But I'm pretty sure Raikage had a good explanation to explain his tardiness? 









> Yeah sure..


So you agree? I think this is the first time we actually agreed on something.







>


A has shown he is a man who makes the most of his time.

Thus is why he decided to waist time hiding behind that pillar. 







> ORLY?A friendly reminder, what happened to "A is not stronger than Gaara?"



Did you state that? Because I am sure I didn't.



> btw i don't count you addressing some of my points that defend A with "You are off topic!Stop it!" as you addressing them properly!Especially since you were willing to argue them before


Off topic about what?

I answered all your post thoroughly before adding on a new idea, thus is why all my responses are extremely LONG.









> For the billionth time, A can trow kunais and bricks at Sascake till Sascake passes out.Sascake on the other hand can't do shit to A if A doesn't allow him!
> 
> ^



Yea I'm pretty sure Raikage was in temper tantrum mode, and I don't think he was in the best position to think clearly.


What can you say, he wanted to hold to his promise

Link removed

He tried to become a hero far to quickly, just like a certain Danzo. And just Like Danzo he paid for it.

Besides Raikage is a man of action

Link removed







> btw that's another argument i presented before which you have failed to address properly.


Maybe because it's pointless. He did not take that approach, so their no need to even argue against it. Raikage made his bed, and now he must lie in it.







> And please enlighten me, what can Sascake do that A can't dodge with ease?


Apparently coat Susano with Amaterasu, and take his arm.

He certainly didn't dodge that one now did he?





> If A wants to do "Liger Bomb" so much, he can easily replase his arm


Do you think the Narutoverse has good prosthetics?

No. but serious I am sure, Raikage has already ordered it and is now just waiting on it in the mail. He should have payed that extra fee for air shipping.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 18, 2011)

> When he requested for it?
> 
> You don't request for it if you don't need it?
> 
> ...



I meant that he *necessarily * needed to attend to it as quickly as if otherwise he is screwed.Nothing suggest that.

"Oh i hurt my finger whaaaaaaaaaaa" "Oh noes there is a little blood?!?"

It's a good idea to take care of it but is it really a problem?Hell no!

Yes loosing an arm is serious in the real world but not in this manga.

A should be able to survive at least as long as Deidara or Jiraiya (who also had to suffer through this:
Link removed  and still it was not enough to take him out until the rest of the paths ganged up on him!) without his left arm being attended to which is very bad news for Sascake 



> Which would explain why someone who could dodge Amaterasu at point blank, manage to arrive at the summit at the same time as someone with a 3 in the speed department?
> Link removed
> 
> But I'm pretty sure Raikage had a good explanation to explain his tardiness?




Maybe Gaara yelled at A to wait for him? A is just a very understandable person and feels sorry for the slow 


This is all on Kishi.He wanted Mei, Tsuchikage and Chōjūrō to have their time in the spotlight.



> So you agree? I think this is the first time we actually agreed on something.



 Wait.. you serious?:rofl




> Did you state that? Because I am sure I didn't.



Has anyone ever told you that you have really bad memory?Don't you worry!Your dear pal narutotantaratard is coming to the rescue!



			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> narutotantaratard said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Off topic about what?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Just one example:



			
				narutotantaratard said:
			
		

> You state that Sascake's Susano is stronger than A like it means a god damn thing.
> 
> -I say that its irrelevant, that you don't need to be stronger than certain jutsu to defeat the person using it and A can simply out last it
> 
> ...














> Yea I'm pretty sure Raikage was in temper tantrum mode, and I don't think he was in the best position to think clearly.
> 
> What can you say, he wanted to hold to his promise
> 
> ...



I dunno what to say.. Thanks?I guess.. for pointing out that A handed Sascake the victory by acting irrational.. Yeah.. Thanks for agreeing with me 




> Apparently coat Susano with Amaterasu, and take his arm.
> 
> He certainly didn't dodge that one now did he?



Funny and all but my point was: "*If A doesn't allow him*, Sascake can't do shit!"

If A doesn't willingly sacrifice his arms just to slap Sascake, Sascake's screwed!




> Do you think the Narutoverse has good prosthetics?



Remember that this is the same manga where you can turn your hole body into a puppet except the heart?Sasori says hi 

Or a better example would be Chiyo?Who turned only her right arm into a puppet?


Kankuro can replace A's left arm.




> No. but serious I am sure, Raikage has already ordered it and is now just waiting on it in the mail. He should have payed that extra fee for air shipping.



Gotta admit that at least you are funny


----------



## Tobirama Senju (Mar 18, 2011)

i'd rather not compare raikage to gaara, the difference between their fightin styles is rather amazing. its like comparin hmm... lets say deidara to kisame, deidara has the advantage of cause he's a long rage fighter while kisame MOSTLY has to engage in melee combat, or use water techniques which wont rly work that well against an opponent flyin in the sky.
he's not weak, thats for sure. but he's not the strongest out there either. i say raikage's decent enough


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Mar 18, 2011)

Raikage lost his arm against sasuke.. if he continued he would lose his other arm.. so apparently people think raikage>sasuke with no hands.

with no hands he is not like deidara a long range fighter.. he is a clown low brainer.. and people said karin had to help, lmao raikage cried for help to heal his arm after only losing his 1 arm.. imagine if he lost both arms.. he would cry for his mom.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 18, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> Raikage lost his arm against sasuke.. if he continued he would lose his other arm.. so apparently people think raikage>sasuke with no hands.
> 
> with no hands he is not like deidara a long range fighter.. he is a clown low brainer.. and people said karin had to help, lmao raikage cried for help to heal his arm after only losing his 1 arm.. imagine if he lost both arms.. he would cry for his mom.



Loose his other arm?Yeah keep dreaming  A won't do the same stupid shit twice.And crying?Like Sascake when he dropped on his knees a minute later?

Sascake:

"Oh im in so much paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaain, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa "


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 18, 2011)

He's a badass MOFO.


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Mar 18, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Loose his other arm?Yeah keep dreaming  A won't do the same stupid shit twice.And crying?Like Sascake when he dropped on his knees a minute later?
> 
> Sascake:
> 
> "Oh im in so much paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaain, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa "




A constantly break through walls and crush things even at samurais place.. what makes you think he wont loose another arm? LMAO, he dumb for real

and when sasuke was exhausted, raikage was no match for sasuke so he needed help from 2 other elite jonin + kazekage lmao and they had to hide behind pillars.. and sasuke was fuck this, they are not worthy opponents, hiding behind pillars. i go run into 3 other kages cuz raikage was disgrace.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 18, 2011)

Hiding behind pillars and asking for help just means he is no longer in reckless mode, which is bad news for Sascake.A will no longer slap him through Amaterasu.

Is not that A is no match for Sascake.It's Sascake that is no match for A  What can Sascake do if A keeps his distance and trows rocks and bricks at him?Drop on his knees and cry like a bitch about how much pain he is in?


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Mar 18, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Hiding behind pillars and asking for help just means he is no longer in reckless mode, which is bad news for Sascake.A will no longer slap him through Amaterasu.
> 
> Is not that A is no match for Sascake.It's Sascake that is no match for A  What can Sascake do if A keeps his distance and trows rocks and bricks at him?Drop on his knees and cry like a bitch about how much pain he is in?



So A agrees that sasukes dark epic presence is too much for him so he ran behind pillars and try to throw rock like lil bitch ok.

How is sasuke no match for A when he run like lil bitch and retreat and needz heal.. sasuke was like yea just hide lil bitchez i go hunt other kages, raikage too much disgrace..


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 18, 2011)

How is Sascake match for A considering he dropped on his knees a minute later, couldn't maintain the second Susano anymore and cried like a bitch in pain?

What will he do to A in that state?Make A feel sorry for him? There is no attack Sascake can try that A can't avoid!


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Mar 18, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> How is Sascake match for A considering he dropped on his knees a minute later, couldn't maintain the second Susano anymore and cried like a bitch in pain?
> 
> What will he do to A in that state?Make A feel sorry for him? There is no attack Sascake can try that A can't avoid!



couldnt maintain the second susano thats why he left and went for 3 other kages? nice try tho.

A will do nothing, continue to throw rocks "LMAO" like a bitch behind those pillars.

after shee healed raikage, he said he would attack sasuke again = loose another arm = die. So he realized sasukes epic presence and shat his pantz and hide... sasuke was disappoint


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 18, 2011)

Nice try bro but better read the manga before trying against me 

Link removed

Sascake: i'll show you Mei!Second Stage Susan.. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Link removed

Second Stage-*FAIL
* 

Yeah trow rocks and kunais and bricks.. What can Sascake do to A on the other hand besides kneel and cry before him?


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Mar 18, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Nice try bro but better read the manga before trying against me
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Read again, she said so the fight with raikage really wore you out.. and then he was lol i dont need second stage to pwn you.

sasuke can chose to pwn kazekage and raikage and 4 other elite jounin at once or go to more challenge and go pwn 3 kages and other elite jounins.

so he ran to other kages and raikage was like, shit we to weak, how is this uchiha looking down on us.. its becuz we play safe and throw rocks and we weak? LMAO


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 18, 2011)

Sascake pwnd Gaara?Pwnd Mei?Pwnd Tsuchikage?When? And as i remember it he needed to be saved from the last two 

Gaara doesn't trow rocks.He attacks with sand.

Mei eats Susano with acid mist.

Tsuchikage solos with the jutsu that would've destroyed the turtle island.

Yeah A will need to trow rocks and kunais while laughing off Susano's pathetic attacks


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 18, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Wait, are people actually saying Sasuke's amaterasu was solid?  So not only does Sasuke have a whole different set of rules applied to him, his fire also gets to be solid when he's about to die?  Hopefully I read that wrong.



Dude...that's what you heard. Sad aint it...lol...


----------



## BrickStyle (Mar 18, 2011)

ItachiGaara said:


> People can both underrate him, and overrate him. He's underrated by some, and overrated by many.
> I'm currently waiting for him to show his full power until I label him weak or strong.
> Though, seeing how underrated Gaara is, I'm saying that Gaara is stronger than him. Could just be an opinion as well.



If you judge like this (which would be correct to do for any character), then none of us can possible even make up a third of the power that itachi had. Since he didn't even show a glimpse, just one time showed godly power, when with susanoo activated, walking towards an entirely frozen (of fear) Sauce. In that moment we saw a true god.


----------



## Mael (Mar 18, 2011)

I fear the heresy of Uchiha wank.

Heresy begets retribution.

And besides, Raikage is pretty much on the level of Raoh in terms of strength and durability.  Only Bigwig (Thlayli) could solo Raikage and win.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 18, 2011)

*AHEM*
1. As a previous poster said, Sasuke "taking" Raikage's arm was handed to him on a silver platter.
2. I know this is manga and all...but Im just gonna throw this out there even though it happened in anime. Raikage chopped AMASUSANOO Sasuke from 4: 51- 6:21 seconds. HIS HAND WAS ON FIRE FOR 1 MINUTE AND THIRTY SECONDS(On average) and that is a flame that burns "anything"...........Chopping off his hand/the flames on his hand was not even on his mind. If Gaara said,"Ok, I helped you from hurting yourself to a unnecessary degree, you may now continue killing Sasuke." RAIKAGE WOULDVE JUMPED RIGHT BACK INTO BATTLE RIGHT THEN AND THERE!
3. Sasuke couldnt just "get up" from the chop. If he could....he wouldve done it because it was seen that he got up from the Raikage bomb! So the chop did F' him up...*plus the coughing up of blood which made it obvious*
4. If Raikage wanted to, he could've just ran circles around Sasuke until Susanoo wore off and he becomes hopeless like he did against Mei and Oonoki.
5. Don't make it seem that Raikage was "crying" for medical attention...that makes you sound like a hater, plain and simple. The exclamation mark was used to show him demanding/commanding C to heal him up. (If you look at the anime just to hear his voice...you can do it with you eyes closed, just listen to the sound. You can clearly HEAR that he was COMMANDING instead of..........crying...).
6. Chidori didnt hurt. Raikage's chop hurted Sasuke though. Raikage wins right then and there, point blank.
7. As I stated earlier....Sacrifice is all part of the game when you're a ninja. As long as the enemy is defeated...no matter YOUR loss, you win/complete your task. Same thing Raikage was gonna do before he was interupted...he was GONNA GET THE JOB DONE!( Killing Sasuke for the slow ones.)

And all of you are constantly running in circles. If one person says Sasuke took A's arm and gives an example of why that should be a 1-up for him...another person gives an example of why it is not a 1-up for Sasuke. And then its that but DIFFERENT EXAMPLES....but the POINTS any of you are trying to make ARENT CHANGING. Stop giving examples for you both have gotten oneanother's points...so screw the different examples if the main POINT you're trying to make is gonna stay the same! THANK YOU.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 18, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> I meant that he *necessarily * needed to attend to it as quickly as if otherwise he is screwed.Nothing suggest that.



That may or may not be true, Raikage's arm is a lot bigger than Diedara, meaning it was alot more blood pumping through that arm. Diedara arm was crushed, which may have sealed the wound, or the very least reduced the bleeding.

Raikage's arm was cut smooth off, the fact that he told C to stop the bleeding implies it was in excess. It implies he couldn't simply just shrug it off.

You have no proof to support your argument, besides look at that character. 

You neglect to realize that A is not Diedara.

They do not have the same body type, they do not have the same genetic structure, etc. etc.. Deideara prove just like Madara, that the loss of arms are not enough to affect him, just like Oro.


Raikage has not proven to have that kind of body structure (it has nothing to do with durability), and his built requires much more blood to be pumping through that gigantic body structure than little Deidara.




> "Oh i hurt my finger whaaaaaaaaaaa" "Oh noes there is a little blood?!?"
> 
> Couldn't be as he asked nurse C to stop the bleeding.
> 
> It's a good idea to take care of it but is it really a problem?Hell no!



These are ninja's for god sakes, but you agree that Raikage is the equivalent of a big baby? 

Considering nobody else stops and ask for a band aid, if they are bleeding a little. 

Also is it me or does Raikage seem to be in a panic about his arm?

Link removed




> Yes loosing an arm is serious in the real world but not in this manga.


This is a rather silly notion, as don't the individuals in the Naruto verse use their arm for exactly the same purpose?

How does one not equate one being serious in one world, and not the next.

Considering that in real life their is more substitutes I would say you are wrong.  



> A should be able to survive at least as long as Deidara or Jiraiya (who also had to suffer through this:
> Link removed  and still it was not enough to take him out until the rest of the paths ganged up on him!) without his left arm being attended to which is very bad news for Sascake


A is not = to Deidara/Jiraiya. That is like someone arguing that Sasuke and Itachi are brothers, with identical MS, and almost identical MS jutsu.

Thus if Itachi was able to prolong complete blindness for 7/8 years why not Sasuke.

Their is a number of reasons one could argue why not; usage, Sasuke vision not being as durable, plot etc. etc. but at the end of the day it didn't.

And Sasuke is not Itachi, therefore that assumption is invalid.

Raikage is not Jiraiya or Deidara. He does not have the same body structure, nor genetic make up.

Sasuke was able to absorb 7 stab wounds and not die, yet Haku died with just one chidori.

50 cent was shot 9 times, by your logic everyone should be able to survive 9 bullets. 

Raikage is not none of those individuals, and needed medical treatment for his arm, thus this is the way Kishi wrote it.

I get the feeling your issue is not with me, but with how Kishi depicted the Raikage. As twice you essentially asked the question of why Raikage had to do this....

First with being patched up, the second with his decision to trade limbs. 






> Maybe Gaara yelled at A to wait for him? A is just a very understandable person and feels sorry for the slow


Or maybe A yelled to Gara, to wait why he gathers his courage and a new pair of underwear. 

A wasn't willing to wait on anything or anyone before, not even someone with long range jutsu to hit Sasuke's shield or the eventual low chakara reserves for Sasuke. So why the sudden change in behavior? Why seem to have changed Raikage recent approach to battle?


Or maybe................

Raikage wanted Gara to walk him to the summit, much like a child wants his mother to walk him to class on the first day of school, because he is a wee bit scared. This goes very much in line with Raikage's child like antics, and inability to control his emotions like 12 year old "Sascake". 








> This is all on Kishi.He wanted Mei, Tsuchikage and Chōjūrō to have their time in the spotlight.



He wanted A to have time in the spotlight as well, to bad it almost cost him an arm and a leg to do it.

You are though it is all on Kishi; but it makes no sense for Raikage to lose an arm to essentially get the same thing Tsuchikage, Mei, Gara, etc. etc. had.

Sasuke vs. Raikage was not a long or serious fight, look at how many manga pages it took up, better yet look at how short the fight was in the anime.

Maybe this is Kishi's punishment to the Raikage. As a mother would punish a child for having a temper tantrum. 

On that note, how do you think the loss of an arm, has affected the Raikage's training regiment?

Yea I am pretty sure this is no longer part of his work out.

How would Raikage keep those rage biceps on his left nub arm rock solid now.

Wow I am really getting the hang of your sarcastic/humorous response.







> Wait.. you serious?:rofl


Just when I thought we were becoming friends.

Narutotantaratard you are breaking my heart.






> Has anyone ever told you that you have really bad memory?Don't you worry!Your dear pal narutotantaratard is coming to the rescue!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn't my post state what you said?

*
YOUR STATEMENT
"A is not stronger than Gaara?" 
*

"Raikage is also not *way* stronger than Gara, so your argument is mute."

I believe the word *WAY* implies Raikage being much, much better than Gara. 

I simply disagreed to that assumption of A being *much, much* stronger than Gara, not that he isn't stronger.

Seriously did anyone ever tell you that you have really bad, bad reading comprehension skills?










> Funny and all but my point was: "*If A doesn't allow him*, Sascake can't do shit!"


And apparently Raikage couldn't do shit either, because he is the one that gave up his arm.

You don't get the slippery slope you are on when you make that statement, as that could applied to anything or anyone giving the situation.

You essentially use this same argument about Naruto indecision to summon Gamabunta at VOE, and I basically gave you the same argument.

You only say that, because you are unhappy with the results of Naruto/Raikage's actual decision.

I could essentially make the same argument about, how dumb Sasuke was to try to sword fight with Bee, or how dumb he was to think genjutsu would work on a perfect Jinchuriki. But the fact is one doesn't know their current decision doesn't work until it happened.

It is easy for me to say I should have the winning 6 numbers in the lottery instead of my 6. 




> If A doesn't willingly sacrifice his arms just to slap Sascake, Sascake's screwed!


Yes because A not attacking Sasuke, would actually produce Sasuke's death?

Did your forget, that Sasuke idea was to keep Raikage from attacking with his fist?

He never wanted, nor did he expected A to attack. However as you and others are so quick to point out, A controlled that battle. And what did he do with that control good sir? Traded his arm for a wound that would go away the following chapter? 

The ability to not use his head, is what cost him his arm. 



> Remember that this is the same manga where you can turn your hole body into a puppet except the heart?Sasori says hi


Yes I am sure this was done with some kind of forbidden jutsu, now we just have to wait for A to do the same thing.



> Or a better example would be Chiyo?Who turned only her right arm into a puppet?


Or become a puppet master.

Or even better a pirate, with a giant hook.






> Kankuro can replace A's left arm.


Yea, why hasn't Konkuro been on the job then?

Someone needs to do something, so A could finally leave the house.

Then finally Kishi could stop making excuses as to why he cannot come out to play.

Do you think his fellow Kage's laugh at him for returning short handed?

Why does he hide his new paw? Is he ashamed? Would his Kage peers look at him any different?

Do you think they notice? I mean Raikage is a master of deception.

He manage to almost completely fade from sight in this panel
Chapter 144

And with C's scarf covering the wounds pretty well, maybe the other Kage's ever realized that something was missing.


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## Turrin (Mar 18, 2011)

Its amazing how much manga cannon is being ignored here. Its stated Sasuke was ran ragged by Raikage and some how that equals, Sasuke coming out of that battle A OKAy. Its stated that Sasuke couldn't follow R2 Raikage's movements, but that some how equals he can.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 18, 2011)

Lets just call it quits now. This is getting nowhere.


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## RosenWitch (Mar 18, 2011)

> And Sasuke vs. Raikage would have had a clear winner as well.
> 
> With all the back and fourth argument about Sasuke's fact, the fact remains that Susano had a bigger stronger Susano if he felt his life was in danger.


Okay, Sasuke hides behind Susanoo. Then what? At least the Raikage can shunshin himself some scones and tea while Sasuke stays stationary and unable to harm him.

Better yet, he could stay right where he is while Sasuke wastes even more chakra proportionately, really...


> We have seen this type of ambiguous clash before between A and Sasuke.
> Sasuke saying that Itachi could make a Kage Bunshin even during them throwing kunais at each other.
> 
> And we both know who won that clash.
> ...


It was resolved next page. That's not ambiguous at all; nothing was left to interpretation; both lunged, Sasuke ducked and got his Chidori in, point.


> The fact that the manga confirms Raikage's fate, and not Sasuke.
> 
> The fact that the previous exchanges were in Sasuke's favor
> 
> ...


The manga _confirmed_ nothing. Naught was in Sasuke's favour before A willingly palmed him through the Amaterasu. That's like me sacrificing a Bishop for a Pawn in chess: the disadvantage in value in there, but it could lead to a favourable position nevertheless. 

Yes, I'm not necessarily saying it was favourable for the Raikage, but I'll be damned if he didn't hit Sasuke good and pull off one of the manliest moments in the whole damn manga.


> Sure the final attack is still very much ambiguous, but the Sasuke coming out okay argument as a pillar to stand on, the other argument does not.
> 
> Apart of the "He would have died because he would" argument I've seen from few individuals.


Define ''okay''. In the long run, maybe, though the loss of an arm hasn't been troubling A all that much. He definitely had more colour in him than Sasuke after the fight. _Even after losing his arm._


> I'm sure A could have worn him out as well, but the point is he didn't. He let his emotions get the better of him, something Sasuke hasn't let happen since part 1.
> 
> You are right Susano + Amateasu wasn't about to defeat A? Maybe, however Susano + Kusugutchi was certainly about too.


In a fight, perhaps. Otherwise... Sasuke is entirely governed by them. Isn't his key characteristic revenge? Vengeance is an emotion.

Kugutsuchi was about to take A's leg, sure, but nothing proves A couldn't have powered through it and nailed Sasuke with his heel.


> I would have to disagree with you. In the emotional state Raikage was in, Susano + Amaterasu was working quite admirably. You have to think about it like this, if A is going to keep attacking, he is going to pay with each body part that connects. Their is only so many limbs you could sacrifice, and another arm, or a leg would have been the end of Raikage vs. Sasuke.
> 
> I would agree with you that Susano + Amaterasu wouldn't be enough for a thinking A. But a Thinking A was not, who was fighting Sasuke ,now was it?


I addressed that in the post itself. A chose to throw himself into the fire.


> The battle of attrition as you are trying to highlight was not what this fight was. Sasuke proved post Raikage that he had lots of fuel left in the tank.
> 
> Sasuke still manage to pull on a Susano stage 1, an enton, Susano stage 2, Susano 1, chidori variant, Susano 1/2 and hold it.
> 
> Sasuke used more chakara fighting the other Kage's + Jounins + Samurai's than the Raikage.


And did poorly, last I checked. He held his own, fled, held his own, fled. In the end, the Raikage was the only individual ''harmed'' from Sasuke's fiasco. 


> This is what you and others are omitting. You are assuming that Sasuke only fought the Raikage at the summit, he did not. In fact if he would have left immediately after the Raikage, he would have been just fine.


What happened subsequently is not what we're discussing here. A also ''had lots of duel left in the tank''.


> He slowed down, when he started abusing the higher states of Susano, as noted. And Mizukage was basically diminishing his chakara reserves by forcing him to maintain Susano or else.
> 
> You also must take into account that we are typical fatigue to amputation.
> 
> ...


What typical fatigue? This is a shounen. Normally, I would concur with you, but in light of the fact A seemed _just fine_ afterwards, I'm going to kindly ask you to show me the Raikage enduring this ''typical fatigue''.


> But whether he was shaken up or not is irrelevant because the bottom line is.
> 
> The loss of an arm hurt much worse, produced more blood, and is a much bigger wound than anything Sasuke received in exchange.


Okay, then.

That's still no point in favour of Sasuke.  He didn't earn it.


> To me it's not just the injury Raikage gained, it's the lack of stategy that bothers me. He is a Kage much, much older, with much, much more experience than Sasuke. But Sasuke looked like the more mature/seasoned fighter.


Mature? Maybe. Seasoned? I don't really think so, but that's neither here nor there.


> He seen the results of hitting Susano + Amaterasu, why would he try the same trick twice?
> 
> If he and others deem him superior to Sasuke, than he wouldn't be willing to commit the equivalent of Suicide to kill him.
> 
> I herd individuals say that all Sasuke could do is hide behind Susano, but all A could do is trade limbs for pot shots.


Or, y'know, A could just wait him out.


> Lets just call it quits now. This is getting nowhere.


I'm all for that if IpHr0z3nI is.


----------



## Jeαnne (Mar 18, 2011)

let me ask you guys


you say that sasuke's sharingan is a gift



so what is raikage's giant amount of chakra?


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 18, 2011)

Jeαnne said:


> let me ask you guys
> 
> 
> you say that sasuke's sharingan is a gift
> ...



Raikage's hair was a gift too.

And who were these people saying Sasuke's sharingan was a gift?


----------



## Jeαnne (Mar 18, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Raikage's hair was a gift too.
> 
> And who were these people saying Sasuke's sharingan was a gift?


exacly 


ppl always say that: sharingan is a gift, mangekyou sharingan is a gift, so amaterasu, susanoo, and everything sasuke has and come from it is a gift


naw...if its like that, everything "good" that the characters are born with that allow them to have some advantage is a gift. Including raikage's amount of chakra, right?


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## Greedy master (Mar 18, 2011)

raikage can : 

 1) evade everything
 2) defeat you with 1 punch
 3) blitz anything at the speed of sound
 4) tank almost everything as much as he wants
 5) almost endless chakra

 there are 2 ways to defeat this thing , either you can fly and have a jutsu  he cant evade or tank  or  you have a tsukuyomi lvl genjutsu but still we dont know how he can perfom against genjutsu  if he release such a strong chakra at once he will escape it probably and finally against sasuke he could just wait for susano and amaterasu to deactive and then attack  so only plot made him lose his arm  by any means he is not overrated he is probably the strongest ninja at the manga.


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## Skeith (Mar 18, 2011)

I don't know what going on here but I will add my two cent.

If Gaara didn't stop A's kick, he would of lost his leg and Sasuke would of loss his head. 


Sasuke loses.


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## Ausorrin (Mar 18, 2011)

Isn't Minato a one-dimensional fighter as much as the Raikage


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## Deadway (Mar 18, 2011)

Ausorrin said:


> Isn't Minato a one-dimensional fighter as much as the Raikage



Minato is by far the most boring character to watch battle. Teleport-Rasengan. Didn't expect that. At least A actually has a variety of killing moved.


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## cry77 (Mar 18, 2011)

Il Void said:


> Minato is by far the most boring character to watch battle. Teleport-Rasengan. Didn't expect that. At least A actually has a variety of killing moved.



you mean..kicks and punches?


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## Ausorrin (Mar 18, 2011)

Minato and the Raikage have basically the same fighting style yet Minato is not called out.

Haters gonna hate


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## Deadway (Mar 18, 2011)

cry77 said:


> you mean..kicks and punches?


Liger bomb is by far one of the sickest finishing moves in the manga, his karate chop should have snaped sasukes neck but of course we can't have that happen now, his drop kick would have been nice to see but that didn't happen. Lariat is cool as well. Don't know why people hate him, it's cause he's black right?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 18, 2011)

RosenWitch said:


> Okay, Sasuke hides behind Susanoo. Then what? At least the Raikage can shunshin himself some scones and tea while Sasuke stays stationary and unable to harm him.


No you are missing my point entirely.

It's to imply that Sasuke felt his current modifications was sufficient enough to tank Raikage's blow. 
Notice Amatearsu was still covering Susano

Sasuke saying that Itachi could make a Kage Bunshin even during them throwing kunais at each other.

If he wanted to simply reproduced the same results he would have simply just let the current events transpire without any slightest big of adjustments. 

However he made some modifications
Sasuke saying that Itachi could make a Kage Bunshin even during them throwing kunais at each other.

Regardless of Raikage's fate, I'm sure he valued his survival allot higher than killing Raikage. If he felt that the modifications would not be enough to keep himself alive, he would have used the stronger Susano.

Sasuke saying that Itachi could make a Kage Bunshin even during them throwing kunais at each other.

This is sheer common sense.



> Better yet, he could stay right where he is while Sasuke wastes even more chakra proportionately, really...


Sasuke will not be sitting their idle now would he? Nor would he keep Susano up if Raikage does not intend to attack.



> It was resolved next page. That's not ambiguous at all; nothing was left to interpretation; both lunged, Sasuke ducked and got his Chidori in, point.


You mist my point once again entirely.

Without the next chapter, that exchange too is ambiguous. But the next chapter indicates that Sasuke fared better in that exchange.

Is it illogical to same the later scene wouldn't play out the same way, with Sasuke being victorious?



> The manga _confirmed_ nothing. Naught was in Sasuke's favour before A willingly palmed him through the Amaterasu. That's like me sacrificing a Bishop for a Pawn in chess: the disadvantage in value in there, but it could lead to a favourable position nevertheless.


I never stated it did.

However the correlation, the previous exchanges, the previous statistics points in Sasuke's favor.

Read exactly what I stated


*Spoiler*: __ 



"The fact that the manga confirms Raikage's fate, and not Sasuke.

The fact that the previous exchanges were in Sasuke's favor

The fact that Raikage is not a 100% vs. breaking Susano.

The fact that Raikage is trying the same trick twice, and Sasuke is modifying his approach.

The fact that Sasuke had a bigger Susano at that point, but didn't feel the need to use it.

All these points are in Sasuke's favor. "




I said in the first sentence the manga doesn't support Sasuke's faith, which is better than what Raikage has. And I use the previous correlation/statistics to argue in favor Sasuke's surviving in fighting condition.

You are arguing with yourself, my statement has nothing to do with "A willing place his arm in that fire"

It is just to state that Sasuke surviving in fighting condition is more favorable as it has some support to stand up on, unlike the opposite. 



> Yes, I'm not necessarily saying it was favourable for the Raikage, but I'll be damned if he didn't hit Sasuke good and pull off one of the manliest moments in the whole damn manga.


He didn't. As Sasuke was still able to get up, keep fighting, without the slightest hindrance. 

You cannot argue any long term effects Raikage's blow had, or better yet why it is more relevant than Sasuke's chidori?

Naruto hit Sasuke at VOE, a lot more times for similar results, and no one really cared.

The way you are depicting it. It seems that Sasuke was on a whole nother level of power, if you are praise Raikage for landing a hit, that really had no affect on Sasuke's ability to continue to battle. 

Is Raikage not a Kage?  Shouldn't he have been getting those shots in that battle on a regular bases?

Shouldn't he be getting those shots without the cost of an arm.

It's like praising Konohamaru for hitting a pain body. Sure it didn't do much damage(as I think he got up much later), but what was impressive was the fact that someone on the level of Konohamaru manage to actually land an attack on pain.

Is Sasuke that above Raikage's level, that Raikage hitting him no matter how irrelevant the blow was, no matter what it cost the Raikage warrants praise?





> Define ''okay''. In the long run, maybe, though the loss of an arm hasn't been troubling A all that much. He definitely had more colour in him than Sasuke
> after the fight. _Even after losing his arm._



As it getting up and being able to do the same exact thing he pulled against Gara, but this time Raikage would have either been dead, or in a position where he could no longer battle, or continue his career as a ninja.

The Loss of an arm is always trouble, as would the loss of any limb. 
Let's analyze your response for a second.

An exclusive taijutsu fighter, whose main weapons are his fist, is not hurt by the loss of one of them?

That would be like me trying to convince you, that the loss of Sasuke's eyes is not a big deal. Apart from the peripheral vision, Sasuke also loses all abilities of that sharingan, and the ability to utilize Susano.

The loss of A's hand puts him in a similar situation. He is no longer as the utility of two arms, which means he has a disadvantage from jump going against other taijutsu fighters. Any move that required the use of his left arm, or both can no longer  be accessed. 

His knew approach to battle must be modified, to incorporate the fact that he is missing a limb. Missing a limb is a discomfort, thus is why all the individuals who have had their arm removed have replaced them if given the opportunity.





> In a fight, perhaps. Otherwise... Sasuke is entirely governed by them. Isn't his key characteristic revenge? Vengeance is an emotion.


Which is the only thing that matter in a discussion of the "Sasuke vs. Raikage " battle. As essentially that was a fight.

You are absolutely right here by the way.



> Kugutsuchi was about to take A's leg, sure, but nothing proves A couldn't have powered through it and nailed Sasuke with his heel.


A leg would have been the very least of the possible injuries. Those spikes look like they were targeting Raikage's entire buttocks region
Sasuke saying that Itachi could make a Kage Bunshin even during them throwing kunais at each other.

Bottom left panel isn't just his leg/hell it is his rump.
Upon further examination almost Raikage's entire lower region was headed for spikes.
Sasuke saying that Itachi could make a Kage Bunshin even during them throwing kunais at each other.

A loss of just a leg would have been getting off easy.

Kagutsuchi was not the only thing protecting Sasuke, Susano was still on and functioning quite well madam/good sir.

And Susano has proven to do a very good job is mitigating Raikage's blows. Seeing as it allowed Sasuke to survive and thrive twice.





> I addressed that in the post itself. A chose to throw himself into the fire.


And even then it would be as equally irrelevant then as it it is now.

You commented that "Susano + Amaterasu was not enough to take down A"

My response was against THAT RAIKAGE, it was. 

A's decision has nothing to do with my comment now does it?



> And did poorly, last I checked. He held his own, fled, held his own, fled. In the end, the Raikage was the only individual ''harmed'' from Sasuke's fiasco.


And last I check, his targets wasn't the Kage's now was it? Last I check his purpose for coming to the Summit was to get at Danzo?

Here is a analogy I think you could understand. If one were to get into a fight with 10 people of equal size and strength. The smart individual is not going to sit their and fight all of them. They are going to either flee, or ball up and protect vital areas.

As that is the best strategy for that situation.

Pain even with a much greater chakara capacity, pulled this same strategy when Konoha were counter attacking, he fled and regathered the bodies, as he already achieved his purpose for being there.

Sasuke was out numbered, and had a limited amount of chakara reserves. He never intended to fight any of the Kage's, and only fought the Raikage to by time for Karin to scan out Danzo. The minute Karin had Danzo's position, he was done fighting the Kage's.

Even when he had the chance to counter attack against the Mizukage, after Zetsu supplied him chakara, his first instinct was to head out of their and pursue Danzo. 

Raikage was the only individual harmed in the Sasuke fiasco? I'm sure the iron nation is a few short of Samurai, thanks to Sasuke? And in the end, Sasuke still got his reward which was Danzou.





> What happened subsequently is not what we're discussing here. A also ''had lots of duel left in the tank''.


Uh I am sure he did, considering his chakara level was biju level? Uh I am sure he did, considering he has much more chakara than Sasuke.

However A, was not able to continue the entire time, as he did in fact require down time to attend to his wounds. 




> What typical fatigue? This is a shounen. Normally, I would concur with you, but in light of the fact A seemed _just fine_ afterwards, I'm going to kindly ask you to show me the Raikage enduring this ''typical fatigue''.


It isn't the fact that he is just fine, as Sasuke was just fine as well after becoming completely blind. 

However he lost any and all functionality his eyes granted. That would be a good chunk of his power right their.

A similarly lost any and all functionality awarded by having two hands. Are you suggesting a boxer/ufc fighter wouldn't be hindered by the loss of an arm?

Raikage couldn't perform any moves that required two hands, and to put more pressure on his right arm. His health was not the issue, but the functionality awarded by having two arms is.

With only one arm, he is not as proficient of a ninja as he was before. In fact he couldn't pull half of the stunts he pulled without the the acquisition of two arms.  



> Okay, then.
> 
> That's still no point in favour of Sasuke.  He didn't earn it.


Why not? You cannot give Raikage credit for his blow, without giving Sasuke credit for his.

Also you sound rather silly, as I doubt one would set up a shield of fire, if he only had one intention with it.

Either Raikage was going to back up, or he was going to continue and sacrifice his arm.





> Mature? Maybe. Seasoned? I don't really think so, but that's neither here nor there.


Sasuke seem to keep cool under pressure, and eventually started using the Raikage's anger against him.

Sounds like something a more seasoned fighter would do.



> Or, y'know, A could just wait him out.


Yea, it's just too bad you weren't battling for A.



> I'm all for that if IpHr0z3nI is.


Good debating with you.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 18, 2011)

Jeαnne said:


> exacly
> 
> 
> ppl always say that: sharingan is a gift, mangekyou sharingan is a gift, so amaterasu, susanoo, and everything sasuke has and come from it is a gift
> ...



I think I'll engage you in some productive...chat since Im tired with the Sasuke vs Raikage shid, lol. Sharingan is a gift, no denying it. Mangekyo on the other hand is like Naruto relying on Kyuubi. Its a gift but more of a curse but thats irrelevant now since he now has EMS. But Naruto was young...noooo one told him about Kyuubi's Negative effects if he carries it too far but as soon as he figured out its bad for him and all around him he made it a priority to become strong alone and not rely on his "gift". Sasuke on the other hand...even when he was told by Itachi and experienced his sight deteriorating and even bleeeeeeding he still abused the power/curse/gift. But we dont have a problem with Sasuke using the sharingan but if Naruto was relying on Kyuubi chakra 90%...I would be down talking HIS skill as a ninja. Thats all. Blame it on the kage summit arc, lol


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## Jeαnne (Mar 18, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> I think I'll engage you in some productive...chat since Im tired with the Sasuke vs Raikage shid, lol. Sharingan is a gift, no denying it. Mangekyo on the other hand is like Naruto relying on Kyuubi. Its a gift but more of a curse but thats irrelevant now since he now has EMS. But Naruto was young...noooo one told him about Kyuubi's Negative effects if he carries it too far but as soon as he figured out its bad for him and all around him he made it a priority to become strong alone and not rely on his "gift". Sasuke on the other hand...even when he was told by Itachi and experienced his sight deteriorating and even bleeeeeeding he still abused the power/curse/gift. But we dont have a problem with Sasuke using the sharingan but if Naruto was relying on Kyuubi chakra 90%...I would be down talking HIS skill as a ninja. Thats all. Blame it on the kage summit arc, lol


see right now naruto is trying to master the kyuubi, right? so its a gift too, since it was his father and mother that prepared everything for him?

plus, he could only be a jinchuuriki thanks to his uzumaki chakra, wouldnt it be like born as an uchiha? with a hereditary gift?


in the end, the ninja's amount of power is pre-determined, just like sasuke is at this point right now because he is an uchiha, naruto will be at some point because he is an uzumaki


and the raikage himself, can have this fightning style thanks to an amount of chakra that we dont know the origin still, but its not really only his merit, its a gift! he was born with it.


if we use sasuke's hereditary stuff to downgrade what he can do, then this argument can be used against the majority of the characters of the manga.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 18, 2011)

Jeαnne said:


> see right now naruto is trying to master the kyuubi, right? so its a gift too, since it was his father and mother that prepared everything for him?
> 
> plus, he could only be a jinchuuriki thanks to his uzumaki chakra, wouldnt it be like born as an uchiha? with a hereditary gift?
> 
> ...



I hear ya man. I agree with this post.


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## Derpie (Mar 18, 2011)

He's like the fastest character in the manga. Moreover, his utilization of taijutsu is lethal and effective, which is evident from the fact that Shii and Darui thought Sasuke to be dead after being subjected to barely a tincture of it. He's also one of the strongest ninja in the manga.


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## Mio Akiyama (Mar 19, 2011)

I enjoyed watching Sasuke beat up the Raikage for the past two eps.


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## Deshi Basara (Mar 19, 2011)

*IpHr0z3nI,* i meant that someone as important as A won't die *as quickly*!


A is no more important than Haku or Danzo?Who died the first time they faced a main character?A on the other end survived against Sascake.


And Jiraiya is a bad example cause he brought himself back to life!And would've survived after his hand got cut off and got stabbed by Animal without medical assistance whatsoever.




> You are not going to convince me that the lost of an arm to individual is no big deal TO THAT individual.



You got it wrong.You are the one that had to prove it's a big deal and failed time and time again.Nobody believes that it was a big deal and the fucking manga suggests the exact opposite.I'm still waiting for the frigging proof god damnit!



> You are essentially refusing to place yourself in Raikage's shoes which is why you seem to write it off as no big deal.



I dunno how do you place yourself in someone's shoes who doesn't make a sound (except "HMPH") when he chops his own fucking hand off?

But ok lets try that..

I'll probably will be screaming in pain (but manly scream, like totally ) and i probably won't be so concerned about the bleeding as *about the fact that i just lost my frigging arm!*

A on the other end can easily replace it.



> No. none of that. I just don't see the point in Kishi, punishing the Raikage for a skirmish.



Ok.. so you think A shouldn't have lost his arm?




> I was under the impression we were, we have a good arrangement.
> 
> You post nonsense, I prove you wrong. We have a laugh about it.
> 
> Rinse and repeat.



Actually it's the other way around.. but hooraaaaaaaaaaaay we are buddies, yeah 







LOL shooting or trowing something at someone in front of me who is attacking someone else at the same time is the same as shooting that someone while he is attacking me so fast that it looks like he is attacking from all sides at the same time :rofl

Lee didn't dominate the fight because he lost? Do you hear yourself?

LOL Sascake pwhhkhned Bee witheh Amaterasu yeaaaah aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh.He likeh totahaly dominated the fight yeaaaaaaaaaah.

Doesn't matter that Sascake and his team, were pwned a zillion times, right?



You are very bad at predicting  My argument is basically the same argument that it was for Lee, Sascake lost because of the cursed seal Lee lost because of the gates 

A won't loose because of the gates or because of seal placed on him 

You are not even trying are you?The Deidara fight seriously?I guess Dei was attacking extremely fast from all sides?LOL NO?You don't say..



> I think you are missing my point. Raikage backing off would have given Sasuke must time to think, and come up with a different strategy as well.



What strategy?Seriously?What can Sascake do from a distance to A that A can't dodge while at the same time he gets all kind of serious shit trowed at him?



> Sasuke has shown on multiple occasions, that he possessed the ability to out think his opponents.



LOL by the same logic Naru wins against everyone, every time 

Stop with the "Sascake will think of something, he's smart yeah" and give an example for fucks sake.

Don't worry it's understandable that you can't.


Sascake dominated?Because A lost an arm?Yeah again, Sascake dominated against Bee as well, right?


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## izanagi x izanami (Mar 19, 2011)

ItachixCC said:


> I enjoyed watching Sasuke beat up the Raikage for the past two eps.


me too.....if Shii didn't stop Raikages bleeding.... probably Raikage would die from blood loss...

it was funny to see Darui protecting raikage while Shii using med jutsu


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## Disaresta (Mar 19, 2011)

Overrated? Hell yes, I haven't seen him do anything that makes me think he deserves the hype he's gotten, gaara would stomp.


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## Derpie (Mar 19, 2011)

sazon uchiha said:


> Overrated? Hell yes, I haven't seen him do anything that makes me think he deserves the hype he's gotten, gaara would stomp.




He'd bypass all of Gaara's defenses and crush him.

Raikage is faster than Sasuke.


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## Disaresta (Mar 19, 2011)

Derpie said:


> He'd bypass all of Gaara's defenses and crush him.
> 
> Raikage is faster than Sasuke.



Oh and gaara's sand keeping up with amatarasu mean nothing,


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## izanagi x izanami (Mar 19, 2011)

^actually it was kagutsuchi not amateratsu

it seems anime team made some mistake


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## Disaresta (Mar 19, 2011)

Black Phoenix said:


> ^*actually it was kagutsuchi* not amateratsu



 , I'm sorry I missed the part where it was called that...oh wait it wasnt...


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## Derpie (Mar 19, 2011)

sazon uchiha said:


> Oh and gaara's sand keeping up with amatarasu mean nothing, gtfo my internet noob



That isn't a speed feat, you noob. Where in the manga is it mentioned that dodging Amaterasu is difficult?

Gaara would get raped by Raikage in the same way he was raped by Lee in the Chuunin exam, except all it would take from Raikage is two hits. One to crack Gaara's armor, and the next to crush his heart.


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## Disaresta (Mar 19, 2011)

Derpie said:


> That isn't a speed feat, you noob. Where in the manga is it mentioned that dodging Amaterasu is difficult?
> 
> Gaara would get raped by Raikage in the same way he was raped by Lee in the Chuunin exam, except all it would take from Raikage is two hits. One to crack Gaara's armor, and the next to crush his heart.



 Keep your fanfiction out of this


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## raizen28 (Mar 19, 2011)

*answer*

he is somewhat overrated. i cant see him being on minato's level. also if that sasuke fight would've continued he would've kept getting injured by sasuke's MS.


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## Disaresta (Mar 19, 2011)

raizen28 said:


> he is somewhat overrated. i cant see him being on minato's level. also if that sasuke fight would've continued he would've kept getting injured by sasuke's MS.



If it had gone on he would have lost his other arm and would be dead, gaara saved him


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## Derpie (Mar 19, 2011)

sazon uchiha said:


> Keep your fanfiction out of this



Raikage punched a hole through Juugo's chest despite Juugo having Cursed Seal level 2 armour. 

He cut through one of the Eight Tailed Ox's horns.

He can focus lightning chakra to an extent where it can easily cut through human limbs.

---

I'm 95% sure he would crush Gaara. There is no way Gaara's sand speed is comparable to A's, and by extention Yondaime's, reaction and nervous system.


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## izanagi x izanami (Mar 19, 2011)

sazon uchiha said:


> , I'm sorry I missed the part where it was called that...oh wait it wasnt...



Sasuke called it enton/blaze release and it was shown to moving unlike amateratsu
Link removed


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## Disaresta (Mar 19, 2011)

Black Phoenix said:


> in manga.... Sasuke called it enton/blaze release



Scan or nothing


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## izanagi x izanami (Mar 19, 2011)

Raikage has many excellent arms therefore i think he is not overrated

some of Raikage's arm -can heal, can distract enemy using genjutsu,can sense chakra,etc


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## RosenWitch (Mar 19, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Good debating with you.


My pleasure.


> Gaara would get raped by Raikage in the same way he was raped by Lee in the Chuunin exam, except all it would take from Raikage is two hits. One to crack Gaara's armor, and the next to crush his heart.


Gaara came out unscathed; his Suna no Yoroi and gourd saw to that. That's not ''raped'' in any shape or form. :/

The fight would not be nearly as one-sided as you are making it out to be.


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## zaiigoukyou (Mar 19, 2011)

Vergil642 said:


> Ei's absurdly durable with his Raiton Armour on, able to punch pretty much anything in half in one go and fast enough that most can't keep up with his attacks.
> 
> Then he's got the ability to amp these abilities further with his V2 Raiton Armour and blitz someone as fast as Sasuke despite his Sharingan.
> 
> Very few characters can counter the raw speed and power he has in his attacks. He's not really overrated at all, or underrated, he's reckoned as a high Kage and quite rightly too.



He lost his arm against Sasuke...

IMo* Danzou did a better job against a fully matured Mangekyo Sasuke.*



Jiraiya4Life said:


> Ifthe Raikage lands one good hit on you, your dead.
> 
> His Strength and Speed are all he needs to kick your ass, if you hadn't noticed, Sasuke would have been killed in that battle, and Ei would have only lost a leg.



Tell that to Orochimaru...or Kabuto....or Madara...or Pain....



Ƶ Kira said:


> Overrated?
> 
> *Pain is overrated,* A is just a beast.





Lmao...you can't be serious.

A guy who nearly tanked 6 tailed Naruto with deva realm alone is overrated.

Who made Jiraiya a ninja who was quite possibly the next Hokage look like fodder.

A guy who had to be gimped like crazy so he can lose to the main character for the story to continue.

 Madara regards Nagato as invicible and Madara is regarded by the Hokages as invincible. 

Please...Pain would have a field day with Raikage.

Raikage would get Shinra tenseid right to the face. 

*6 *_tails barely withstood it. _

Not to mention planet devestation which we still haven't seen its full power. 

Kisame would have Raikage's butt on a platter.

People do overrate the Raikage.

If Kisame handled Bee like that he would do the same exact thing to the Raikage.

Ill put Raikage on Orochimaru level since he can't even fight with Sasuke without losing an arm.


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## BrickStyle (Mar 19, 2011)

raizen28 said:


> he is somewhat overrated. i cant see him being on minato's level. also if that sasuke fight would've continued he would've kept getting injured by sasuke's MS.



It was never stated the he was actually on minato's level, only that his reaction speed and his reflex amplification, were comparable to that of minato's. But that doesn't mean that A as a shinobi is on minato's level, but just that a few feats are shared by both.


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## Aleph-1 (Mar 19, 2011)

zaiigoukyou said:


> Lmao...you can't be serious.
> 
> A guy who nearly tanked 6 tailed Naruto with deva realm alone is overrated.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that Nagato/Pein should not be considered overrated; he really was that powerful.

However though, Raikage let his own emotions get to him when he was fighting Sasuke, which resulted in him losing part of an arm. It's kind of silly that it happened, yeah, but had Raikage not lost his cool, things could have played out differently. I guess it can be chalked up to the plot....Raikage, etc. still thought Killerbee was dead at the time, and he acted hastily to make Sasuke suffer. If he did not have such a big personal stake in the fight, he would have fought more rationally than he did at that point and it could have lasted longer. Once Sasuke starts getting worn out in battle and is running low on chakra, like he was against Mei & Onoki, he gets into bigger trouble. The fight could have shifted more in Raikage's favor if he outlasted Sasuke stamina/chakra-wise.

Basically, Raikage's own temper can handicap his dumb ass in a fight, but if he's staying level-headed he can be a more effective fighter.


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## cry77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Il Void said:


> Liger bomb is by far one of the sickest finishing moves in the manga, his karate chop should have snaped sasukes neck but of course we can't have that happen now, his drop kick would have been nice to see but that didn't happen. Lariat is cool as well. Don't know why people hate him, it's cause he's black right?



i know raikage is awesome and everything..

but the moves you listed are still just punches and kicks...nothing original or variation there.


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## BrickStyle (Mar 19, 2011)

cry77 said:


> i know raikage is awesome and everything..
> 
> but the moves you listed are still just punches and kicks...nothing original or variation there.



No it is not ordinary punching and kicking. His lightning shroud allows his physical attacks to have a cutting like effect, much like chidori, except then constantly. 

Also the reason why his fighting style is called nintaijutsu. I mean they gave out of the three styles (nin, tai, gen, -jutsu), especially for his fighting style, this name as variation. Since no one else has this done, i think it's pretty original and a great variation.


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## Deadway (Mar 19, 2011)

cry77 said:


> i know raikage is awesome and everything..
> 
> but the moves you listed are still just punches and kicks...nothing original or variation there.



Still a lot better then Sasuke having plot shield on 24/7 and spamming fire from his eyes


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## cry77 (Mar 19, 2011)

BrickStyle said:


> No it is not ordinary punching and kicking. His lightning shroud allows his physical attacks to have a cutting like effect, much like chidori, except then constantly.
> 
> Also the reason why his fighting style is called nintaijutsu. I mean they gave out of the three styles (nin, tai, gen, -jutsu), especially for his fighting style, this name as variation. Since no one else has this done, i think it's pretty original and a great variation.



im pretty sure the term nintaijutsu is fan-made..


but even strong as they are..kicks and punches are still kicks and punches..


someone like Kakuzu who has an interesting kinjutsu and his hearts allow alot of combination attacks..

there really isnt that much variation in raikage seen so far


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## zaiigoukyou (Mar 19, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> I agree with you that Nagato/Pein should not be considered overrated; he really was that powerful.
> 
> However though, Raikage let his own emotions get to him when he was fighting Sasuke, which resulted in him losing part of an arm. It's kind of silly that it happened, yeah, but had Raikage not lost his cool, things could have played out differently. I guess it can be chalked up to the plot....Raikage, etc. still thought Killerbee was dead at the time, and he acted hastily to make Sasuke suffer. If he did not have such a big personal stake in the fight, he would have fought more rationally than he did at that point and it could have lasted longer. Once Sasuke starts getting worn out in battle and is running low on chakra, like he was against Mei & Onoki, he gets into bigger trouble. The fight could have shifted more in Raikage's favor if he outlasted Sasuke stamina/chakra-wise.
> 
> Basically, *Raikage's own temper can handicap his dumb ass in a fight,* but if he's staying level-headed he can be a more effective fighter.




But Sasuke lost his cool too. He fought Danzo with rage and still performed well. Naruto was pissed at Pain for destroying the village. 

Just because a ninja is pissed doesn't mean its a handicapped. The only time I believe emotions would be a handicapped would be in Itachi Uchiha's situation where he was purposly holding back and wanting to lose.


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## Wade (Mar 19, 2011)

Do people even realize Sasuke has made him sacrifice one arm ?


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## BrickStyle (Mar 19, 2011)

Do people even realize that he almost flattened Sasuke into being able to fit his Sauce appearance on a pizza?


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## Wade (Mar 19, 2011)

He would have lost more had Gaara not saved him. He's overrated.


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## Dark Red Z (Mar 19, 2011)

I saw it as Raikage having the particular fortune of facing Sasuke when he was getting even more riskfully hax. Take away Amaterasu and Susanoo, and he'd have died from the Liger Bomb....or from anything else the Raikage tried. His every move was supposed to be a OHKO.


Also, my signature says hi.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 19, 2011)

Dark Red Z said:


> I saw it as Raikage having the particular fortune of facing Sasuke when he was getting even more riskfully hax. Take away Amaterasu and Susanoo, and he'd have died from the Liger Bomb....or from anything else the Raikage tried. His every move was supposed to be a OHKO.
> 
> 
> Also, my signature says hi.



Take away Raikage's shroud, and he would have died before he even had the chance to engage Sasuke.


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## Skywalker (Mar 19, 2011)

Wade said:


> Do people even realize Sasuke has made him sacrifice one arm ?


Sasuke didn't do that, that was all A's choice.


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## Dark Red Z (Mar 19, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Take away Raikage's shroud, and he would have died before he even had the chance to engage Sasuke.



Raikage's shroud doesn't reek of insanely risky overclocking, like Sasuke's MS does. At least EMS is supposed to fix that.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2011)

cry77 said:


> i know raikage is awesome and everything..
> 
> but the moves you listed are still just punches and kicks...nothing original or variation there.



You've just disrespected Rock Lee and Guy sensei too! 
You'll take back this opinion of my homie Raikage when he goes V3 Raiton mode on zetsu clones' ass.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Take away Raikage's shroud, and he would have died before he even had the chance to engage Sasuke.



Actually, if Raikage knew he was a vulnerable human being with no Raiton armour...he wouldnt have stayed stationery when Sasuke tried to decapitate him with his sword or try to tank his chidori.


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## hitokugutsu (Mar 19, 2011)

Raikage hasnt shown everything

I wont be surprised if he has a V3...where his hair grows and his eyebrows dissapears


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Raikage hasnt shown everything
> 
> I wont be surprised if he has a V3...where his hair grows and his eyebrows dissapears



And his eyes are filled with lightening 
...I know...I know....Im a fan.


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## cry77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Il Void said:


> Still a lot better then Sasuke having plot shield on 24/7 and spamming fire from his eyes


agreed


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Take away Raikage's shroud, and he would have died before he even had the chance to engage Sasuke.



what kind of argument is that?

take away sasukes sharingan and he would have been long dead as well..


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## nadinkrah (Mar 19, 2011)

lol @ Pain making Jiraiya look like fodder.


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## Puppetry (Mar 19, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Take away Raikage's shroud, and he would have died before he even had the chance to engage Sasuke.



Take away Sasuke's Sharingan, and it would have been the same. That doesn't make any sense.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 19, 2011)

In terms of physical prowess and ninjutsu, he really isn't overrated, he's just an all out unstoppable beast, most probably the closest one on par w/SM Naruto. His manipulation of lightning techniques is what makes him so powerful and basically he's simply raw power magnified. He's a great shinobi but his lack of intellectual curiosity of the actual nature of being shinobi is what I have beef with. You can't be a Kage and not be involved in the study of ninjutsu or at the very least have an understanding of what it means to be a ninja. Perhaps I am judging him from only what he's shown so far, he could obviously more well-rounded but I have my doubts.

However, his personality has several flaws that are quite unbecoming of Raikage*, he's rude, rash and stubborn and although those qualities could be an asset on the battlefield at times, they really aren't when you are holding a position of power. I think he's overall raunchy personality is what makes people look past his accomplished skill. I believe his brother would be a better candidate for Raikage than he would and that's including the baby-rhymes he comes up with.


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 19, 2011)

Don't forget he's prone to kissing Tsunade's ass.


----------



## Mio Akiyama (Mar 20, 2011)

I love how Sasuke made him have to, A. Cut his arm off, B. Get his ass saved from a little redheaded boy.


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## Skywalker (Mar 20, 2011)

ItachixCC said:


> I love how Sasuke made him have to, A. Cut his arm off, B. Get his ass saved from a little redheaded boy.


Once again, A didn't have to hit him and waste his arm, but he did because he was annoyed. I find it funny how Taka had to save Sasuke's ass the entire fight against Bee.


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## Mio Akiyama (Mar 20, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> Once again, A didn't have to hit him and waste his arm, but he did because he was annoyed. I find it funny how Taka had to save Sasuke's ass the entire fight against Bee.



They both needed ass saving.
It was amusing and pitiful to watch on both ends.

Still enjoy watching little boys beat well enough on big strong men.


----------



## zaiigoukyou (Mar 20, 2011)

Dark Red Z said:


> I saw it as Raikage having the particular fortune of facing Sasuke when he was getting even more riskfully hax. Take away Amaterasu and Susanoo, and he'd have died from the Liger Bomb....or from anything else the Raikage tried. His every move was supposed to be a OHKO.
> 
> 
> Also, my signature says hi.



You could say the same thing about Raikage super saiyan energy. Take away SSJ2 and he would have died from Amaterasu. 




jaknblak said:


> You've just disrespected Rock Lee and Guy sensei too!
> You'll take back this opinion of my homie Raikage when he goes V3 Raiton mode on zetsu clones' ass.


*
 Raikage is overrated. *Let's put the nail in the coffin.



Raikage is not the speed Demon you think he is. Madara's space time jutsu is faster then Raikage's Super saiyan lightning overrated mode. This means..the cloud ninja were snorting angel dust when they made that comment about Raikage's lightning shroud technique putting him on par....with konoha's yellow flash.

When clearly...




Flying thunder god v2 is superior to Raikage's shroud.


Thing is Sasuke dodged Raikage's elbow with a mere sharingan.



Raikage's Shroud level 1 *is not as haxxed *as people make it out to be...
First of all _*Juugo blocked his hit.*_


But the SHaringan can't keep up with Raikage's Shroud level 1? _yes it can_...



Sasuke dodge Raikage's punch.

Raikage realized shroud level 1 would not be enough so he pushed himself and went into Shroud "level 2" and this is when Sasuke could not keep up with Raikage by eyesight.

*Spoiler*: __ 







Raikage was pushed pretty far...did he reveal his ace..who knows? At the end of the day he lost his arm. _So either _ he *was going all out **or he should have put everything on the line from the get go.* Common sense tells me Raikage did not hold back because he was so pissed and he pushed himself against Susanoo.


*Thats why he told Sasuke not to underestimate him*


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 20, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Take away Sasuke's Sharingan, and it would have been the same. That doesn't make any sense.



Sasuke would have still killed him first without the sharingan.

And you miss Red Z's post.

"Take away Amaterasu and Susanoo, and he'd have died from the Liger Bomb....or from anything else the Raikage tried."

Or something to that nature.

My post was only a response to such silly notions.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 20, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> Once again, A didn't have to hit him and waste his arm, but he did because he was annoyed. I find it funny how Taka had to save Sasuke's ass the entire fight against Bee.



And in the end, Sasuke saved Bee.  

See how nice Sasuke is?


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## BlinkST (Mar 20, 2011)

zaiigoukyou said:


> Raikage is not the speed Demon you think he is. Madara's space time jutsu is faster then Raikage's Super saiyan lightning overrated mode. This means..the cloud ninja were snorting angel dust when they made that comment about Raikage's lightning shroud technique putting him on par....with konoha's yellow flash.
> 
> When clearly...
> 
> ...


They are speaking in regards to reflexes and moving from point A to B i.e shunshin speed. Teleportation, though admittedly superior, doesn't count.


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## cry77 (Mar 20, 2011)

zaiigoukyou said:


> You could say the same thing about Raikage super saiyan energy. Take away SSJ2 and he would have died from Amaterasu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


first of all...minato caught madara off guard whereas Raikage had to cross a pretty long distance..

second of all..teleportation is not a measurement of speed...so raikage can easily be faster than minato..because hirashin doesnt have anything to do with speed


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## zaiigoukyou (Mar 20, 2011)

Blinx said:


> They are speaking in regards to reflexes and moving from point A to B i.e shunshin speed. Teleportation, though admittedly superior, doesn't count.




Anything goes in a ninja fight.

A blitz is  a blitz. Raikage's "blitz" is overrated


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## cry77 (Mar 20, 2011)

zaiigoukyou said:


> Anything goes in a ninja fight.
> 
> A blitz is  a blitz. Raikage's "blitz" is overrated



so?..they arent saying that hirashin doesnt count in a fight..

but fact is..teleportation has nothing to do with speed..

Raikage can easily be faster than minato because hirashin does nothing to argument his speed


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## k2nice (Mar 20, 2011)

zaiigoukyou said:


> Anything goes in a ninja fight.
> 
> A blitz is  a blitz. Raikage's "blitz" is overrated



Last time i checked, Minato already had a kunai in madara. Minato didn't blitz.
Teleportation doesn't equal speed.


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## BrickStyle (Mar 20, 2011)

k2nice said:


> Last time i checked, Minato already had a kunai in madara. Minato didn't blitz.
> Teleportation doesn't equal speed.



 They do "call" it teleportation, but it is multiple times stated that minato's hiraishin is equal to light "speed", and it being the fastest of any character to reach. Which is obviously a speed (300.000 km/h), only being the maximum speed, so in this manga, teleportation sure does equal speed. speed is the amount of distance divided by the time you need for covering the distance, so you can't just disappear and reappear on another place without covering distance, as the change in place that has been made, is distance. As for the time he covers, it is instantly (meaning very fast, but never 0). 

We all know kishi isn't good at the physics and all, but even kishi can easily see that the light speed is maximum, and he probably won't change that for a "manga" (at least he didn't have the crazy idea to do that yet), so what you said doesn't make sense at all.


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## cry77 (Mar 20, 2011)

BrickStyle said:


> They do "call" it teleportation, but it is multiple times stated that minato's hiraishin is equal to light "speed", and it being the fastest of any character to reach. Which is obviously a speed (300.000 km/h), only being the maximum speed, so in this manga, teleportation sure does equal speed. speed is the amount of distance divided by the time you need for covering the distance, so you can't just disappear and reappear on another place without covering distance, as the change in place that has been made, is distance. As for the time he covers, it is instantly (meaning very fast, but never 0).
> 
> We all know kishi isn't good at the physics and all, but even kishi can easily see that the light speed is maximum, and he probably won't change that for a "manga" (at least he didn't have the crazy idea to do that yet), so what you said doesn't make sense at all.


scans of that statement please..


and teleportation has nothing to do with speed...you can be the slowest guy in the world and still be able to teleport...

since teleportation has nothing to do with the users speed it is no way measure of speed..


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## zaiigoukyou (Mar 20, 2011)

k2nice said:


> Last time i checked, Minato already had a kunai in madara. Minato didn't blitz.
> Teleportation doesn't equal speed.



Neither does the Lightning armor....

Jutsu is jutsu. Shunsien is a form of jutsu utilized by every single ninja in the manga besides Lee. You guys are making your own rules for the Naruto world.  




cry77 said:


> so?..they arent saying that hirashin doesnt count in a fight..
> 
> *but fact is..teleportation has nothing to do with speed..*
> 
> Raikage can easily be faster than minato because hirashin does nothing to argument his speed



Teleportation has everything to do with speed. Its another form of transportation just like shushin.

 shushin is a jutsu based off chakra control. Back in the day you had to form seals to use it....via HANZo vs Nagato....




The 4th Hokage is much faster then Raikage end of story.

And where are these if Sasuke didn't have sharingan or Naruto didn't have rasengan type rebuttals comming from.

Raikage uses his shroud to augment his speed. The 4th uses teloportation as a speed technique. Abilities are abilities. 

If we really want to play this game then technically LEE WITHOUT WEIGHTS is the fastest character in the manga. THINK ABOUT IT.

Raikage is not the speed demon everyone is making him out be unless he goes into V2 which he can still be stopped by what???

Gaara's sand????


If he was as powerful as some people made him out to be his leg should have went through the sand through Amaretsu and destroyed Sasuke.
No better yet Gaara should have been helpless.


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## Forlong (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm gone for three days and this thread is still going?



M a t t h e w said:


> Raikage's a pussy!


Evidence to back up this claim, please.



Blinx said:


> That's not exactly true.


Link removed
Seems like it was exactly true.



> Conversely, the chop Sasuke received didn't exactly prevent him from getting up and running off. The same chop he used to decapitate himself.


Really, isn't that exactly what it prevented?  Sasuke did stay on the ground for a about a minute.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Was that a temporary problem or a permanent one?
> 
> Kishi has never elaborated on such, and Sasauke never behaved as if it was a permanent problem.


Speaking as someone with eye problems, I have to say that would be a bad thing.  If Sasuke's eyes went out during his fight with A for one second, it would have gotten him killed.  He was lucky that it only happened when he trying to drink some OJ.  Or when he was against two people without the guts to kill him.

As for Sasuke not behaving like this was a problem, this is Sasuke we're talking about.  He's not one for admitting personal weakness.  Itachi and Madara, who both had the same problem, looked at it as something that needed to be fixed or dealt with.  Considering Itachi and Madara are known for brilliance, I'll take their view on the matter over Sasuke's.



> He did the same vs. Gara as well.
> 
> As he was training.
> 
> Again Raikage did nothing special.


Yeah, Gaara and three other high level shinobi were what it took to push Sasuke farther than A did.  How does that make A look like nothing special?  Hell, people are now saying that Darui is Kage-level.  So that's _two_ Kage level shinobi that had to work together to do better than A, _after_ Sasuke had spent a good chunk of his chakra already.  Seems to me that A earned every word of hype he's been given.



> No manga dictates that the efforts against Raikage was merely a fraction of what lead to the lasting damage. Arguably the smallest at that.


No.  That would be Onoki.



> The adjustment to the loss of an arm, is a lot longer and harder than the deterioration of vision. That's because vision loss is easily corrected, Sasuke has already fixed his problem.
> 
> Raikage's arm situation has not been fixed, and shows no future sign of ever being fixed. Raikage's arm situation, is most likely the reason Kishi has kept him out of battle.


Yeah, I'm sure that has nothing to do with him being frickin' Commander and Chief!
Link removed
The reason Shikaku stated is the only reason A is being kept out of the fight.  Also, in that same page "weak one arm" is confident that he could take two Jinchuriki at the same time.  Yeah, he's really suffering there.

Also, how is A not getting a replacement hand a sign of weakness?  He has command over dozens of people who he could _order_ to replace it.  He's had plenty of time, as he's gone to the Leaf Village and back home (that has to be at least a week).  Why hasn't he done it?  Maybe he feels that their resources should be focused elsewhere.  Maybe he feels that functioning and fighting with his right hand alone is the new challenge for him.  Maybe he doesn't like the idea of a replacement hand.

Whatever it is, until we see evidence of it, we can't assume that the loss of his arm will be a problem.



> No it doesn't, as Raikage needed medical attention to continue fighting. You are ignoring this Turrin.
> 
> Raikage had to pause amputate his arm, and get it patched up.


That was time A _chose_ to take.  The Amaterasu takes two weeks to consume something, so he was in no immediate danger from it.  He only chose to chop it off because he felt that would be a productive use of his time while Gaara talked with Sasuke.

Inversely, Sasuke _didn't_ choose to receive medical attention.  Madara pushed that on him.  A comes out as the better fighter.  He fights smarter, not harder.  Though he does prefer the hard way.



> Has Raikage ever been seen in a serious battle sense then?
> 
> Has Sasuke? Yes, in fact immediately after battling Raikage, he was placed against Gara and the gang, and soon after Mizukage.


And how did Sasuke do against them?  Oh yeah, he ran away from the first one and was nearly killed in 20 seconds by the next.  Yeah...A hardly did anything...



> Raikage has show no signs to actually be able to replace his arms, so your point is mute. Replacement of of limbs have all been done in arbitrary ways, and only the villain side has ever accomplished it.


Link removed
When did Chiyo become evil?  I must have missed that.



> Sasuke can mimic to a T every move he pulled off in that fight, Raikage couldn't.


To bad Naruto has been able to do the same thing without an uber-KG.  Kind of makes that trait of the Sharingan completely pointless.

You know what else makes that power completely pointless?  Moving to fast for it to see.



> Losing an arm is a significant handicap, especially for a taijutsu fighter. Raikage would have to alter his approach to battle, and exclude any maneuvers that required to use of two hands.
> No more of this
> Link removed
> 
> ...


Only one of those moves required two hands.  Also, the human brain is an amazing thing.  It knows when a severed limb isn't responding and compensates automatically.  The loss of A's arm means that more power is going to be in his right, which could compensate over time.  Considering that A hasn't ordered a replacement yet, he probably is thinking just that.



> The fight is irrelevant it was interrupted, but just like the Rock lee vs. Sasuke was judged in lee favor. Sasuke vs. Raikage is judged in Sasuke's favor.


You completely miss the point there.  The think about Sasuke vs. Rock Lee is that Rock Lee was easily at the advantage at the end.  This is why Lee is considered the winner.  This is incorrect in my mind, though understandable.  Lee would have clearly beaten Sasuke, had he not been interrupted.

For added reference, let's look at something Sasuke said.
Link removed
Sasuke's view of his fight with Naruto was that it was _interrupted_.  None of that silly jazz about him winning because he landed more hits, which he totally did.  This is because Sasuke knows the rules of engagement.  The winner is the one that causes the opponent to either be unable or unwilling to continue fighting.  If neither of these conditions are met, the fight is inconclusive.  The rules of boxing have no place here because those rules exist so that the boxers won't kill each other or fight for to long than people have patience for.

So, in the case of Sasuke vs A, the fight was interrupted.  If they had a second round, that would be a different story.  But they didn't.  Sasuke running away is _technically_ him choosing not to fight, but I don't count it against him.  I still count it as interrupted because I don't think A was the reason Sasuke ran.  I think he realized that he didn't come there for A or Gaara.  Why he didn't realize this earlier is a good question, but whatever.  We got an interesting fight scene out of it.



> Don't use the same tired argument another post did, especially Forlong of all people as it has already been refuted. Gara vs. Deidara had a conclusion. Deidara may have lost an arm, but Gara lost his life.


Yeah, but that's the point.  Why are you saying that Sasuke won because A lost an arm, when that has never been the deciding factor in how a fight turns out?  If losing an arm is such a handicap, why have so many people brushed it off like it's nothing?  I mean, Nagato cause more damage to Naruto than he did to him, but Naruto is still considered the winner of that fight.  So amount of damage is not a good gauge of victory in this manga.



> Remember both Raikage + Gara + 4 Jounins were caught in the debris.


Remember how none of them were hurt?  I fail to see your point.  Sasuke intended to slow them down and it did it.  So what?  Doesn't make him better than all of them combined.



> Sasuke IMMEDIATELY AFTER RAIKAGE BATTLE, did not need medical attention, and showed no signs of diminish in eye sight (YET), nor does he show that he is hindered by fighting the Raikage.


Wrongo.  Sasuke did need medical attention but didn't get it.  Otherwise, he wouldn't have failed so hard against Mei and Onoki, would he?  It wasn't until Madara forced him to take it that he got it.  But that's not the point.  The point is that about half of that fatigue was caused by A.  So I'd say that's a good indicator of how powerful he is.



> Raikage on the other hand, had to seek medical attention IMMEDIATELY after his battle with Sasuke. And had to stand idle, while others fight his battle for him.


Which is why he waited until he could get medical attention before dangerously chopping off his arm.



> How embarrassing must it be for Raikage to leave the summit with two arms, and come back with one.


Link removed
Yeah...he looks totally ashamed of himself.

The fact is that A did far better than anyone else at the summit against Sasuke, that makes him superior to all the other Kages.  I'd say that's living up to hype.


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## Puppetry (Mar 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Sasuke would have still killed him first without the sharingan.



Where did you get this impression from? Sasuke required the Sharingan/Mangekyou Sharingan to fight the Raikage. 



> And you miss Red Z's post.
> 
> "Take away Amaterasu and Susanoo, and he'd have died from the Liger Bomb....or from anything else the Raikage tried."
> 
> ...



Ah, I see now.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 20, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Where did you get this impression from? Sasuke required the Sharingan/Mangekyou Sharingan to fight the Raikage.


Referring to this move.

Link removed

The cheap shot from Sasuke, neither required the use of the sharingan or Mangekyou sharingan.

And the same logic could be used against the Raikage as well. Raikage required the shroud to fight Sasuke.

The shroud grants Raikage with more than just defense. It boost his speed and his strength as well. Unless you are saying the benefits the basic sharingan granted Sasuke in that situation outweigh the benefits the shroud granted Raikage, than my notion still stands.  

Sasuke without the sharingan still possess all his chidori variants, still possesses the same incredible speed, that he used to keep up with shroud 1 Raikage etc. etc.

Raikage without his shroud looses the boost to his speed, protection, and the boost in strength. The loss of the shroud hurts Raikage allot more, than the loss of the BASE sharingan hurts Sasuke.


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## DremolitoX (Mar 20, 2011)

Raikage LET that land. He could have dodged it if he so pleased.


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## cry77 (Mar 20, 2011)

zaiigoukyou said:


> Teleportation has everything to do with speed. Its another form of transportation just like shushin.


transportation or not..its not speed..you cant judge someones speed from a teleportation feat...



> shushin is a jutsu based off chakra control. Back in the day you had to form seals to use it....via HANZo vs Nagato....


so?..shunsin is a physical movement technique..teleportation morphs you through time and space..how can you even compare those two?


> The 4th Hokage is much faster then Raikage end of story.


you base this on what?



> Raikage uses his shroud to augment his speed. The 4th uses teloportation as a speed technique. Abilities are abilities.


teleportation doesnt argument his speed 

he goes from A to B in short amount of time..that doesnt make him fast...the slowest guy in the world could do that with hirashin..that doesnt make him fast..


> If we really want to play this game then technically LEE WITHOUT WEIGHTS is the fastest character in the manga. THINK ABOUT IT.


how?


> Raikage is not the speed demon everyone is making him out be unless he goes into V2 which he can still be stopped by what???
> 
> Gaara's sand????


Gaara is a kage..you should not underestimate his sand...


> If he was as powerful as some people made him out to be his leg should have went through the sand through Amaretsu and destroyed Sasuke.
> No better yet Gaara should have been helpless.


gaaras sand didnt seem to me to just act as a shield between raikage and sasuke..for me it looked like it had a bit of explosive effect..."forcing" raikage to be pushed away..and again..gaara is a kage..its not like it was just some fodder who stopped raikage


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 20, 2011)

DremolitoX said:


> Raikage LET that land. He could have dodged it if he so pleased.



Without his shroud good sir? 

Puppetry already made the mistake of not understanding the argument, and you've my good friend, just made the same mistake. Congratulation.


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## Puppetry (Mar 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Referring to this move.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...




I don't really see anything there. I couldn't follow your link, but when I looked up the same chapter on the same page, all I see is Sasuke behind the Raikage with a sword in his hand, and the Raikage dodging it. There is, of course, Sasuke charging at the Raikge with chidori. 

I think both of us are misinterpreting what one another said. Sasuke needs MS/Sharingan to match shrouded Raikage. Raikage needs his shroud to match MS Sasuke. If both were restricted from the abilities mentioned? Sasuke would probably win, simply because he still has an impressive set of moves. Loss of Sharingan prediction may hurt him, but not too much. Raikage relies on his shroud, and doesn't have many feats without it.


----------



## DremolitoX (Mar 20, 2011)

Yes. The Raikage had plenty of time to react. He chose not to move because of the fact that sasuke is garbage and wouldn't have been able to penetrate his defense.


----------



## Forlong (Mar 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Referring to this move.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...


Not a very reasonable argument.  Without his shroud, A still is a heavyweight with chakra levels over 9,000.  Whereas Sasuke can't tie his shoelaces without the Sharingan.  He needs the Sharingan to be able to use the Chidori properly, not that it was effective anyway.  Without the Sharingan, all he has are fire jutsu that move rather slowly.  A would be able to easily beat him, in that case.


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 20, 2011)

Forlong said:


> Not a very reasonable argument.  Without his shroud, A still is a heavyweight with chakra levels over 9,000.  Whereas Sasuke can't tie his shoelaces without the Sharingan.  *He needs the Sharingan to be able to use the Chidori properly, not that it was effective anyway*.  Without the Sharingan, all he has are fire jutsu that move rather slowly.  A would be able to easily beat him, in that case.



I have to disagree here. Sasuke didn't use the Sharingan here. The Sharingan requirement only applies to Chidori, not its varients.


----------



## zaiigoukyou (Mar 20, 2011)

*


cry77 said:



			transportation or not..its not speed..you cant judge someones speed from a teleportation feat...


so?..shunsin is a physical movement technique..teleportation morphs you through time and space..how can you even compare those two?

n...
Nooo...shunsin is a jutsu...so is teleportatio
you base this on what?

I base it on the manga..We just seen the panel where Hanzo had to form seals to use shunsin....He didn't say Shunsin physical movement. He said Shunsin no jutsu....Some jutsus don't require seals...Shunsin became one of them.

teleportation doesnt argument his speed 

I said teleportation is a speed technique...and so is the Lightning armor. There all jutsus. Like I said the only ninja in this entire manga that doesn't rely on any jutsu is rock lee.

he goes from A to B in short amount of time..that doesnt make him fast...the slowest guy in the world could do that with hirashin..that doesnt make him fast..

Your making an excuses man. If 4th Hokage and Raikage went at it Raikage would get rasenganed in the face. Its as simple as that. It's not rocket science.

how?

Gaara is a kage..you should not underestimate his sand...

Well thats the whole point of this thread. The raikage was hyped to slay people like pain and be on this godly level of high end kage. The greats like 4th Hokage, Gaara, and even Sasuke shown he's not as juggernaut as you think he is. Don't get me wrong. I think he's strong but god level. No..



gaaras sand didnt seem to me to just act as a shield between raikage and sasuke..for me it looked like it had a bit of explosive effect..."forcing" raikage to be pushed away..and again..gaara is a kage..its not like it was just some fodder who stopped raikage
		
Click to expand...



Like I said...Raikage isn't weak but people Do overrate him. Logically..based off his feats and compare it to other characters. He's no match for madara. 
Gaara's sand stopped him. 4th Hokage is faster. And his armor can be touched by an ordinary chidori. Imagine what the FRS would do to him?

I geuss Ill wait for people to say Raikage would beat Naruto....
even though 4 tailed naruto would have a field day with him. 

He's not Pain level.*


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 20, 2011)

Whats this now about with no sharingan and Raikage with no shroud Sasuke would win? NEWSFLASH. The shroud is Base Raikage. Raikage using shroud = Sasuke using all of his jutsus. Idk how this argument is forming.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 20, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> I don't really see anything there. I couldn't follow your link, but when I looked up the same chapter on the same page, all I see is Sasuke behind the Raikage with a sword in his hand, and the Raikage dodging it. There is, of course, Sasuke charging at the Raikge with chidori.


didn't use the Sharingan here.

Top right panel good sir.

Raikage never dodged anything. The sword didn't penetrate the shroud.

That cheap shot from Sasuke, required no sharingan, much less the MS to land.

If we strip both characters of their biggest weapons, Sasuke would have the advantage. Raikage's is too limited of a fighter to compete.





> I think both of us are misinterpreting what one another said. Sasuke needs MS/Sharingan to match shrouded Raikage. Raikage needs his shroud to match MS Sasuke. If both were restricted from the abilities mentioned? *Sasuke would probably win, simply because he still has an impressive set of moves. Loss of Sharingan prediction may hurt him, but not too much. Raikage relies on his shroud, and doesn't have many feats without it.*


Raikage need his shroud to match Sasuke period. 

The point in bold is my point exactly.

Raikage's shroud is equivalent to Naruto's SM. Only a more noticeable boost in defense, and speed.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 20, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Whats this now about with no sharingan and Raikage with no shroud Sasuke would win? NEWSFLASH. The shroud is Base Raikage. Raikage using shroud = Sasuke using all of his jutsus. Idk how this argument is forming.



Lol exactly my point good sir.

The shroud is a much bigger boost for Raikage, than the sharingan/MS is for Sasuke period.

Although I don't think shrouded Raikage = base Raikage.


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## Puppetry (Mar 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> he couldn't use the MS
> 
> Top right panel good sir.
> 
> ...



Ah, now I see.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol exactly my point good sir.
> 
> The shroud is a much bigger boost for Raikage, than the sharingan/MS is for Sasuke period.
> 
> Although I don't think shrouded Raikage = base Raikage.



Hmmm
Raikage using V1, v2, V3....or whatever shroud is the equivalent of Sasuke using any/every jutsu in his arsenal. The shroud is ninjutsu...it aint some special gift or anything. So if base Raikage and Sasuke fight...we all know how that would go...


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## Forlong (Mar 20, 2011)

zaiigoukyou said:


> I geuss Ill wait for people to say Raikage would beat Naruto....
> even though 4 tailed naruto would have a field day with him.


I wouldn't be so sure of that, since he was confident that he could take two Jinchuriki at once.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> he couldn't use the MS
> 
> Top right panel good sir.
> 
> ...


Sasuke needed the Sharingan just to keep up with A.  What's all this, anyway?  If Sasuke couldn't use the Sharingan, his strategy would be different.  If A couldn't use his shroud, his strategy would be different.  It doesn't matter when their jutsu came into use.  It's part of their arsenal, and of course they'll use it.


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## zaiigoukyou (Mar 21, 2011)

Forlong said:


> I wouldn't be so sure of that, since he was confident that he could take two Jinchuriki at once.
> 
> *Taking on a Jinchuriki is one thing. Taking on the nine tail fox is another.*
> 
> ...



*Agreed. If Raikage didn't have the lightning shroud level 2...he wouldn't be able to get out of Sasuke's eyesight. *

what if scenarios are irrelevant.


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