# Kisame vs EMS (Kabuto Fight) Sasuke



## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

vs


*FEATS/HYPE/PORTRAYAL*

My opinion on why Kisame can in fact pull out a win against EMS Sasuke Uchiha

Lets first take a look at what Kisame and EMS Sasuke have achieved in their respective lifetimes (pre obito)

*First, lets go for Sasuke.*

He was able to battle a Kage of notable power, the 4th Raikage, and cost him one of his arms, and undoubtedly a leg had Gaara not intervened. While he (in my eyes) lost the fight due to Gaara saving his life, he was able to react to the Raikage's V2 speed (although he eventually couldn't keep up)

He was able to outlast Danzo with 11 minutes of Izanagi, this is no small feat, due to him only having MS at the time. Susanoo draws on pretty heavy chakra reserves to maintain its higher forms, this is a true testament to Sasuke's stamina and will. This fight impressed me far more than his fight against AAAA, as that fight was explosive and fast, but we got to truly see Sasuke's progress in the Danzo fight.

He was nearly able to kill Kakashi after the Danzo fight, despite being at the end of his chakra reserves and stamina. Kakashi himself as notable reactionary and speed feats under his belt, so being able to nearly blitz him despite being at the end of his reserves and stamina is an exceptional feat under Sasuke's belt, you could however argue that Kakashi didn't have killing intent if you choose to.

Him, along with the rest of Taka were able to fight Killer Bee, the perfect jinchuriki of "Eight-o". Bee also has notable feats under his belt, such as tanking his own Bijuudama (although it hurt him) and being able to intercept the Fourth Raikage, a shinobi of speed comparable to Konoha's Yellow Flash.

Although this fight absolutely cannot be called a victory for Sasuke, but more a victory for Taka as a whole, as Sasuke had his entire chest blown out from a V1 Lariat, and was saved by Jugo. Bee was also able to overwhelm Sasuke with Kenjutsu alone, nearly killing him until Suigetsu saved his life.

It was clear that Bee was meant to be put above the Raikage in this battle, due to him casually overwhelming Sasuke consistently, while the Fourth Raikage had to bring out the absolute most of his power to do it.


Sasuke was also able to overwhelm Orochimaru, one of the Legendary Sannin who was able to battle on par with KN4 Naruto, although with extreme difficulty, one could argue that the only reason Sasuke was able to overwhelm Orochimaru was due to Orochimaru actually letting him as part of his plan for when he went to fight Itachi. But still, being able to stand against Orochimaru, a shinobi who strikes fear into his opponents at a mere glance (fearlessly I might add) is a testament to Sasuke's bravery.


Sasuke has tons of feats under his belt, but some of which aren't worth mentioning (the Haku fight) for example, as they won't play a role in the topic at hand (Kisame vs EMS Sasuke)

Sasuke though, surprisingly has very little hype compared to a ton of Shinobi, which doesn't really make sense to me, but he's undoubtedly very powerful. Although he was consistently portrayed as Naruto's equal throughout the manga.

*Now, for Kisame.*


30% Kisame was able to force Team Gai to a high difficulty battle, with Gai being forced to use Asakujaku, along with the help of the rest of the team. The fact that a Kisame at 30% of his power was able to force Gai into the higher gates is no small testament to his power.

Kisame managed to low-mid diff a perfect jinchuriki with no killing intent. Sasuke was not able to achieve this feat, as he nearly got low diffed by Bee when he went in solo. One could argue that Kisame was pushed to mid-high diff due to the fact that he had his chest and stomach areas blown apart by a V2 lariat, but he was in clear control of the battle besides that 1 point, and as such, it pushes me to believe that this was a low diff battle.

He also did not even use some of his strongest techs against Killer Bee (Daikodan and 1000 feeding sharks) and was able to push Killer Bee to his near death. This was a serious statement to where Kisame was to be viewed in power.

Kisame was able to force his main counter in the entire manga, Might Gai to his 7th Gate and forced him to use his strongest tech in said Gate. An attack that stunned and burned Madara did not even KO Kisame, this is a huge statement to where Kisame's durability levels were supposed to be viewed. Even after Gai went all out on him in the 7th gate, he felt the need to threaten him and when Kisame (arguably) went to attack, Gai felt the need to hit him again.

This suggests that Kisame also forced Gai into the 8th gate, had he not been able to force Kisame down with a Hirudora. There is also nothing indicating that Gai was holding back the power of his Hirudora.

Kisame was also able to battle on par with 2 elite Jonin in Konoha, Asuma and Kurenai, and Jonin hype was pretty notable in Part 1, while also casually threatening them, a testament to where Kisame saw himself in power in comparison to them. Itachi also warned against Kisame going all out, as it would attract more attention.

Kisame has also been called the Tailed Beast without a Tail.


As you can see, while Kisame has less on panel feats than Sasuke, his feats are clearly superior to that of EMS Sasuke.

*COMBAT CAPABILITIES*

Now, lets talk about their respective ninjutsu/taijutsu/kenjutsu etc. I will not be taking databook stats, as i've said in the past (Even when they're in my favor) they're horribly inconsistent and sometimes, outright wrong, hence why I ignore them.

We'll ignore their low end abilities, as they'd just cancel each other (low rank Katon vs Suiton etc)

*Lets start with Kisame's Ninjutsu arsenal,* since we started with Sasuke's feats last time.

Kisame possesses a jutsu to make any battlefield HIS battlefield (Waterdome). While it can be argued that it won't be the same size as his Bijuu enhanced one, it can surely be comparable in size, due to the fact that his base chakra levels were comparable to a full Bijuu.

Kisame's biggest Suitons also require only a tiny handful of seals, and as such can react to anything Sasuke throws at him in terms of ninjutsu.

He possesses weaponry unlike any other Shinobi in the manga, Samehada, a blade that absorbs chakra, and he's facing an opponent that relies HEAVILY on their chakra, unlike a Taijutsu master. This alone weakens Sasuke considerably in this battle, as when he streams his chakra, it gets absorbed before making contact, absorbs his Katon (ncluding Amaterasu, although it suffers greatly if it absorbs too much, but alas, there's nothing indicating it won't absorb it)

He possesses a Jutsu that absorbs chakra AND grows stronger in direct proportion to the chakra absorbed (Daikodan). This means that abilties such as Sasuke's Katon and even the likes of Susanoo get chewed through and one shot Sasuke. There's no indicated limit on Daikodan's power, and as such leads me to believe it's in fact limitless. All that's stated is that it absorbs chakra and grows stronger in direct proportion to the chakra absorbed.

Five feeding sharks would along with Kisame would also quickly overwhelm Sasuke underwater inside Waterdome.


*Now for Sasuke's capabilities.*

He possesses a wide variety of Katon, all of which are nullified under Kisame's suitons (bar Amaterasu)

He can Sharingan precog in CQC against Kisame, which will undoubtedly happen, but Kisame is a master swordsman, above Sasuke in terms of Kenjutsu, and Sasuke's one advantage (Chakra streaming) becomes useless when up against Samehada. Kisame has shown to react to a three way assault and counter, this in this three way assault was a man who overwhelmed Sasuke in Kenjutsu alone (killer bee)

Sasuke will undoubtedly lose a ton of chakra in CQC alone from Kisame.

He possesses one of the greatest defenses in the manga (Susanoo), but sadly, this is countered by Samehada or Daikodan, which make quick work of Susanoo, and as such, it's nothing but a chakra sink for Sasuke in a battle against Kisame.

And, he possesses the strongest Katon in existence (Amaterasu). This is one of my more controversial arguments. I believe Samehada can and would absorb Amaterasu, and there's several reasons why.

1. Samehada would undoubtedly do more for Kisame to help him survive, as it was visually distressed at Kisame's death, suggesting it still had a strong bond with him. It would not complain like it did in the hands of killer bee.

2. Amaterasu is typically very overrated, it wasn't able to burn Sasuke after Sasuke had it on his back for multiple panels. It also was not able to do more than give Karin a sunburn on her back.

3. It showed _*NO DIFFICULTY*_ absorbing the fodder Katon absorbed, it only showed PAIN.




*Now for the elephant in the room. Genjutsu*

First things first, Sasuke has not shown any genjutsu that's Tsukuyomi/Izanami level (bar maybe his Rinnegan genjutsu, but he doesn't have that here) all of his jutsu can be broken by either 1. disturbing his own chakra or 2. Samehada disturbing his chakra

Sasuke is not the Genjutsu titan that Itachi is, and as such, his genjutsu is little to no threat against Kisame.

Samehada can disrupt Kisame's chakra, as it can give/transfer chakra directly to Kisame, disrupting his chakra.


*The end of post summary*

Virtually everything Sasuke does is countered by Kisame from Katon to Susanoo.

Kisame takes this battle from EMS Sasuke in a high difficulty battle, Sasuke will without a doubt put up a very good fight, but he is reasonably countered by Kisame.


*Some things that you think I forgot about, but didn't. Kirin and Aoda.*


I truly doubt the battle will carry on long enough to where Sasuke will prep Kirin, as hes only shown to do that when he's very hard pressed. And by the time he gets to that point, he's in waterdome and his Katon will fizzle out in it.

Aoda is fodder to 1000 feeding sharks or Kisamehada inside Waterdome.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Friendly 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Icegaze (Nov 26, 2016)

Kisame eats genjutsu
And dies


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Kisame eats genjutsu
> And dies


Apparently Samehada can break him out 

Go read his essay


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## The_Conqueror (Nov 26, 2016)

> Kisame managed to low-mid diff a perfect jinchuriki with no killing intent.


Kisame beat a restricted bee who had to ensure the safety of ponta and .... .  Bijju mode and bijjudama that would have been it for kisame

Not to mention

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

Please only constructive posts and counter arguments, sarcastic and ignorant comments will be ignored, thank you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Kisame beat a restricted bee who had to ensure the safety of ponta and .... . Bijju mode and bijjudama that would have been it for kisame
> 
> Not to mention



Bijuu mode and Bijuudama would have been it for Bee due to Daikodan to be honest.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

Sorry cba to read it all, but I tried to ctrl+f the term "arrow" and had 0 results found.

So how do you think Kisame counters Sasuke's Susanoo arrows that not even Kakashi could dodge and was forced to use Kamui to survive?


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Sorry cba to read it all, but I tried to ctrl+f the term "arrow" and had 0 results found.
> 
> So how do you think Kisame counters Sasuke's Susanoo arrows that not even Kakashi could dodge and was forced to use Kamui to survive?



Kisame has exceptional reactionary feats, reacting to V2 Lariat blitz and reacting AND COUNTERING to a 3 way blitz. All Kisame would need to do is put Samehada in front of it and allow it to absorb Susanoo arrow.


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame has exceptional reactionary feats, reacting to V2 Lariat blitz and reacting AND COUNTERING to a 3 way blitz. All Kisame would need to do is put Samehada in front of it and allow it to absorb Susanoo arrow.


If Sasuke fires off 3 arrows at once, do you think Samehada would absorb it in time considering it only managed to absorb KB's shroud during the pushback from Lariat and Kisame still suffered some serious dmg (that he healed ofc) ?


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> If Sasuke fires off 3 arrows at once, do you think Samehada would absorb it in time considering it only managed to absorb KB's shroud during the pushback from Lariat and Kisame still suffered some serious dmg (that he healed ofc) ?



I don't recall Sasuke showing the ability to fire 3 Susanoo arrows at this time.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 26, 2016)

Sasuke neg diff, Kisame can't dodge Susano'o Arrow, and Samehada can't absorb it.


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)

@Troyse22 has convinced me  nice shit yo, I loved the way you structured it and how your intro was. You listed your points then stated that Kisame wins high diff and that he just counters Saskue, and honestly the points you made and why he counters supports it. So good job yo.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 3


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Sasuke neg diff, Kisame can't dodge Susano'o Arrow, and Samehada can't absorb it.



Why not? Susanoo arrow does not contain chakra quantity even close to V2 Bijuucloak.


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I don't recall Sasuke showing the ability to fire 3 Susanoo arrows at this time.


Isn't this two?


Anyways I don't see why he wouldn't be able to fire three arrows in a short period of time, it's just a question of chakra and EMS Sasuke had plenty to do this.

If you really think he can't do that, then he can just shoot one Enton arrow which will make it harder for Kisame to absorb in time as it's basically two techniques in one moving at huge speed.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Isn't this two?
> 
> 
> Anyways I don't see why he wouldn't be able to fire three arrows in a short period of time, it's just a question of chakra and EMS Sasuke had plenty to do this.
> ...



Sasuke has never shown the ability to fire an arrow, reload fire another reload etc, that's completely OOC.

Sasuke also only showed Enton+Susanoo arrow POST-kabuto. I don't recall him ever using it against Kabuto.

The quantity of Enton+Susanoo arrow is not huge enough to where Samehada can't handle it regardless. Kisame could also counter with Daikodan.

Susanoo arrow is pointless, as it's nullified by 2 of Kisame's abilities.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Why not? Susanoo arrow does not contain chakra quantity even close to V2 Bijuucloak.


it's not about quantity, Susano'o charka is just impossible to absorb, Hashirama, Kaguya,etc all of them failed to absorb this kind of chakra.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> it's not about quantity, Susano'o charka is just impossible to absorb, Hashirama, Kaguya,etc all of them failed to absorb this kind of chakra.



Hashirama's Mokuton absorption and Samehada's absorption are two different things, there's also tons of evidence indicating Hashirama was holding back against Madara up until Hashirama uses Senpo Mokuton Shinsu Senju.

Kaguya also never got in close contact with Susanoo. But Sasuke knew she'd absorb susanoo arrow and susanoo if he got close. He only used Susanoo for defensive purposes in that battle, he knew she'd absorb any offensive tech.


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Sasuke has never shown the ability to fire an arrow, reload fire another reload etc, that's completely OOC.
> 
> Sasuke also only showed Enton+Susanoo arrow POST-kabuto. I don't recall him ever using it against Kabuto.
> 
> ...


It's not OOC, he never needed that as nobody ever tried to absorb Susanoo arrows just like hbcaptain just pointed out.

How could he use Daikodan in time when he failed to do so against Ay&B lariat (that it was a clone doesn't matter, Zetsu is 100% copy of the target he copies)?

It's questionable if Samehada could absorb Susanoo arrow before it pierced Kisame's head anyways.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> How could he use Daikodan in time when he failed to do so against Ay&B lariat (that it was a clone doesn't matter, Zetsu is 100% copy of the target he copies)?



No, Zetsu is a very poor fighter, as per Obito's statement when Obito showed up post danzo.



t0xeus said:


> It's questionable if Samehada could absorb Susanoo arrow before it pierced Kisame's head anyways



Kisame was able to react and dodge a Raiton infused pencil from point blank range from Bee, only getting a cut on his ear. No reason to believe he can't replicate that against Sasuke.


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> No, Zetsu is a very poor fighter, as per Obito's statement when Obito showed up post danzo.


That doesn't matter, the difference won't be that huge that Kisame would be able to use a whole technique while Zetsu only managed to clap both hands together, lol.




> Kisame was able to react and dodge a Raiton infused pencil from point blank range from Bee, only getting a cut on his ear. No reason to believe he can't replicate that against Sasuke.


?? His reactions have no link to Samehada being able to absorb fully Susanoo arrow before it pierces her along with Kisame.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> That doesn't matter, the difference won't be that huge that Kisame would be able to use a whole technique while Zetsu only managed to clap both hands together, lol.



Yes it does make that big a difference. Zetsu is a poor fighter, Kisame is not. There's not really discussion to be had in that regard.



t0xeus said:


> His reactions have no link to Samehada being able to absorb fully Susanoo arrow before it pierces her along with Kisame.



Samehada begins its absorption BEFORE any ability touches the blade itself. Susanoo arrow is pure chakra, there's no "base" its just chakra in the form of an arrow. The quantity of the chakra is not so huge that Samehada cannot handle it. It doesn't matter how sharp or whatever it is. It doesn't make a slight bit of difference. Samehada absorbs Susanoo arrow.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Hashirama's Mokuton absorption and Samehada's absorption are two different things, there's also tons of evidence indicating Hashirama was holding back against Madara up until Hashirama uses Senpo Mokuton Shinsu Senju.


Absorbing chakra won't kill Madara, if he can absrob Susano'o he can easily beat Madara without killing him.
They are both chakra absorbing techniques and according to feats a small wood dragon is equal to Gakidou in terms of absorbing power.



> Kaguya also never got in close contact with Susanoo. But Sasuke knew she'd absorb susanoo arrow and susanoo if he got close. He only used Susanoo for defensive purposes in that battle, he knew she'd absorb any offensive tech.


She went, she destroyed 90% of Sasuke's Susano'o with her giant chakra arms and dodged the slash, she couldn't absorb it.


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## Yoko (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Sasuke has never shown the ability to fire an arrow, reload fire another reload etc, that's completely OOC.
> 
> Sasuke also only showed Enton+Susanoo arrow POST-kabuto. I don't recall him ever using it against Kabuto.



Here is pre-Kabuto fight Sasuke firing off about a dozen Amaterasu / Enton covered Magatamas.  It's kind of the same idea, and their speed is a problem.

Can it absorb Amaterasu? Maybe.  But keep in mind that Samehada complained when it absorbed a chunk of Itachi's basic Katon, and while its true that Kisame is far more skilled than Killer Bee is with Samehada, several bursts of Amaterasu-covered weapons are way above the standard Uchiha fireball on the elemental and chakra quality spectrum.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> She went, she destroyed 90% of Sasuke's Susano'o with her giant chakra arms and dodged the slash, she couldn't absorb it.



Susanoo is the embodiment of the users chakra, it's not some super special, unabsorbable, above rikudo chakra manifestation. It's chakra. Chakra is chakra.



hbcaptain said:


> Absorbing chakra won't kill Madara, if he can absrob Susano'o he can easily beat Madara without killing him.
> They are both chakra absorbing techniques and according to feats a small wood dragon is equal to Gakidou in terms of absorbing power.



And Samehada is above Preta path in terms of absorption speed. 

It took Preta forever to absorb Senpo Choodama Rasengan, whereas Kisamehada drained Gyukis chakra in a matter of a few short seconds.

It took preta forever to absorb jiraiyas fodder Katon, enough time that Jiraiya had time to KO other paths while it did that. 

Samehada absorbed V1 cloaks and V2 cloaks in the span of fractions of seconds.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Here is pre-Kabuto fight Sasuke firing off about a dozen Amaterasu / Enton covered Magatamas. It's kind of the same idea, and their speed is a problem



That's not Susanoo arrows though, they're not comparable really.



Yoko said:


> Can it absorb Amaterasu? Maybe. But keep in mind that Samehada complained when it absorbed a chunk of Itachi's basic Katon, and while its true that Kisame is far more skilled than Killer Bee is with Samehada, several bursts of Amaterasu-covered weapons are way above the standard Uchiha fireball on the elemental and chakra quality spectrum.



Absolutely. But what i'm saying is, Amaterasu is pretty featless, and Samehada has shown the ability to absorb Katon with no difficulty, only pain (if you consider pain difficulty, fine) but there was no indication that its absorption capabilities were hindered in the face of Katon.

The only time Samehada has shown DIFFICULTY ABSORBING CHAKRA is absorbing the huge quantity of chakra of V2 cloak, and it still put Bee back to V1.


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

This thread. Gonna counter your points later


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## Yoko (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> That's not Susanoo arrows though, they're not comparable really.



It's close enough to be comparable - it's a ranged weapon that has, time and time again, been shown to be fast.



> Absolutely. But what i'm saying is, Amaterasu is pretty featless, and Samehada has shown the ability to absorb Katon with no difficulty, only pain (if you consider pain difficulty, fine) but there was no indication that its absorption capabilities were hindered in the face of Katon.



We know what Amaterasu can do, and the jump from a C-ranked Katon to a Mangekyo powered Amaterasu is a pretty big one to make.


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## Icegaze (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Apparently Samehada can break him out
> 
> Go read his essay


Sorry whose Essay?


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Really? Sasuke is just going to stand there in Susanoo and allow Kisame to absorb it? He could pulverize Kisame with a Susanoo grab.

Kakashi reflexes>>>>> Kisame since he has 3TS, yet he stated he couldn't even dodge a Susanoo arrow, he had to use Kamui.

Yet Kisame is? 

I advise you to stay away from fanfic. Just because Samehada absorbed fodder Katon=/= h can absorb the strongest one.

Thats ridiculous, like saying I am able to take a punch from an average person, so I can take one from a MMA fighter.

If Samehada loves Kisame so much, why would he abandon him for octupus tasting chakra?

If Samehada can break genjutsu, how come he couldn't break Kurenai's weak ass one in time? Thats more than enough time for Sasukr to finish him off.


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry whose Essay?


Troyse22. he wrote one in the OP


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

Yoko said:


> We know what Amaterasu can do, and the jump from a C-ranked Katon to a Mangekyo powered Amaterasu is a pretty big one to make.



What exceptional feats does it have that trump its horrendous failures?

I'm not denying Amaterasu is above fodder Katon, but its way way way overrated here.

The jump is not so big that it hinders Samehadas absorption abilities, that's just how it is.

If Samehada showed difficulty absorbing the Katon, I might believe that, but it didn't it showed 0 difficulty, there's nothing indicating it has difficulty absorbing Katon.

It has only shown issues on chakra quantity.



Yoko said:


> We know what Amaterasu can do,



you're right, we do.







Karin with nothing more than minor burns on her back.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Icegaze (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Troyse22. he wrote one in the OP



I didn't see that my bad 
Enton control GG
Genjutsu GG
The list goes on

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ayala (Nov 26, 2016)

I don't really wanna get in this discussion, but i realized you didn't call my man "Kakashit" anymore. You're becoming better by the day. 

Also, if Samehada can absorb Susano'o and all its jutsu, what's impeding him from beating juubito fight EMS Sasuke too? 

There's also another thing to add, Samehada isn't really better than Preta at absorbing, Preta absorbed a v2 state B's chakra before it could damage him, which is a direct comparison, and shows it's better. It's not like Preta was taking too much to absorb Jiraya's katon too, but rather Jiraya was continuously pumping new katon to keep him busy.


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Lets not forget that Amaterasu was one shotting the Hachibi, and Hachibi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Samehada in durability.


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## Sapherosth (Nov 26, 2016)

Samehada showed pain against a normal fire....How is that "No difficulty" ?


If Samehada showed Pain, it seems to me that it's a living being that's also capable of dying. If it is forced to excessively absorb something it doesn't like, there's absolutely no reason why Samehada wouldn't just betray Kisame again considering how easy it was for him to betray Kisame for something he likes. 

Samehada isn't loyal enough to put himself through that much pain for Kisame. 

Susano arrows are also too fast for Kisame to put up Samehada to defend against it considering Kakashi with SHARINGAN couldn't even move. Killer Bee V2 has never shown the speed comparable to Susano arrow speed either. 

There's also a severe flaw in the hype argument.

While it is true Kisame wasn't trying to kill Killer Bee, Kisame's arsenal is suited for that sort of battle, so it's not like he was hindered in anyway by it. Killer Bee also wasn't going all out as well so it's not a real battle.


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## Yoko (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> What exceptional feats does it have that trump its horrendous failures?



1.  Burning right through an anti-flame toad stomach.
2.  Burning Hebi Sasuke's entire body to nothing in an instant.
3.  Forcing the Hachibi to detach part of its body to survive.
4.  Burning Danzo's entire body to nothing in an instant.
5.  Immediately immobilizing the thought-to-be-immortal Cerberus.
6.  Threatening the Juubi to the point it expressed pain and had to detach part of its body.



> The jump is not so big that it hinders Samehadas absorption abilities, that's just how it is.



No, the jump is actually pretty huge.  Amaterasu and a C-ranked Katon are like heaven and earth apart.



> you're right, we do.



In none of your images does Amaterasu actually hit it's intended target.  These are low-end feats where the target is collateral damage and not the actual focus of the user.

Practically every single time Amaterasu hit it's mark (where the user was focusing), it has been effective.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Really? Sasuke is just going to stand there in Susanoo and allow Kisame to absorb it? He could pulverize Kisame with a Susanoo grab.



Please quote what you're addressing, it makes it easier for me to respond accordingly.

And since Kisame can absorb chakra through skin contact, he gets a shitload of chakra and absorbs Sasuke's Susanoo, grabbing him is the last thing Sasuke should do.



PhantomSage said:


> Kakashi reflexes>>>>> Kisame since he has 3TS



This is emote worthy. 



3TS improves your perception skills, not your reflexes. Your eyes can keep up but if your body can't it's pointless, as proven when Sasuke couldn't keep up with KN1 Naruto at VOTE in P1 until he used CS2

Kisame's reflexes undoubtedly are above Kakashis (bar DMS Rikudo Rikudo Kakashi) due to his swordsman background and his reactionary feats.



PhantomSage said:


> I advise you to stay away from fanfic. Just because Samehada absorbed fodder Katon=/= h can absorb the strongest one.
> 
> Thats ridiculous, like saying I am able to take a punch from an average person, so I can take one from a MMA fighter.
> 
> ...


*
*
Will address bold, the rest is just semantics, and i've already addressed the underlined 

Samehada is a tasty chakra whore, but it still cared deeply for Kisame, as it was clearly very upset about its death and mourned. Samehada didn't like Bee, only the taste of his chakra.

That was because Kisame's portrayal was still relatively weak in P1 (only being portrayed as slightly above high jounin level) but in part 2 we really saw what Samehada was capable of, and what was implied that it was capable of.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

EMS Sasuke mid diffs kisame at best, MS sasuke beats him more times than not, EMS is overkill.

Amaterasu is all thats needed, kisame is way too slow to react to it, and has no way to get the flames off of his body once hes hit short of amputation, just like A was forced to do. Sasuke can also spam enton for days now, withno drawbacks, sooner or later, kisame eats some black flames and goes down for the count. Nothing suggests samehada can absorb enton, it was in excruciating pain from absorbing a fraction of itachis fodder katon and it didnt even eat the entire fireball, samehada has no shot against enton. 

Amaterasu is a waterproof flame, so in the event kisame uses waterdome, sasuke can still gg him with amaterasu, he just ignites kisamehada and he burns to death underwater because screw science. Sasuke can also escape waterdome via aoda thanks to his aquatic anatomy and sheer size, he carries sasuke to safety outside the dome, that or sasuke sics aoda on kisame who stalls shark boy while sasuke escapes on his own, and while outside, he could prep kirin while aoda deals with kisame, then kirin the entire waterdome, killing aoda and kisame in one fell swoop, its perfectly IC for sasuke to do this, he threw mandas life away against deidara after all.

Aoda gg in general, kisame hasnt got anything to deal with boss summons, his 1000 sharks technique would get tanked with ease, the thing was stalemated by gais MP, and i dont see MP KOing a boss summon anytime soon. Sasuke also has his hawk, he could summon that thing and camp on it, spamming enton and susanoo arrows while safely out of kisames reach until hes cooked. He could also prep kirin while hes up there, kisame gets negged by kirin.

Genjutsu gg is also a constant threat, kisame was neg diff caught by kurenais fodder genjutsu, kisame has 0 chance in hell at breaking out of EMS augmented visual genjutsu. Genjutsu, if it doesnt outright KO kisame, sets up a massive opening that sasuke takes advantage of to take kisames head off with a chidori variant/enton variant/katana/susanoo attack.

Kisame cant break through susanoo, sasukes susanoo in particular hard counters him really. Sasuke can coat his susanoo in amaterasu, meaning if kisame ever tried to hit it with his blade, samehada gets caught on fire by enton and burns to death, as it cant absorb it. Daikodan also wont hurt sasukes susanoo once he goes V3, itachis V3 protected him from kirin, and itachi didnt have EMS, kirin>>>daikodan in DC, a V3 susanoo would tank a daikodan, a V4 wont even feel it.
Kakashi with sharingan precog also couldnt react to susanoos arrows, kisame doesnt have better reactions than precog, nor does he have superior speed feats than kakashi to begin with, he cant dodge the arrows either, so arrow gg is a constant threat as well.

Sasuke has an answer to everything kisame has, he wins.



Troyse22 said:


> Bijuu mode and Bijuudama would have been it for Bee due to Daikodan to be honest.


Bees BM, while he wasnt even fresh, tanked his own TBB, TBB>>>>>daikodan, so daikodan doesnt even scratch him.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Yoko (Nov 26, 2016)

Wait - what exactly has Kisame done to give him reflexes above Kakashi? Bar god tiers, only the likes of the Raikage and Minato have shown reflexes / reactions comparable to (or above) Sharingan users.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Susanoo is the embodiment of the users chakra, it's not some super special, unabsorbable, above rikudo chakra manifestation. It's chakra. Chakra is chakra.


No all of chakras aren't the same, Hashirama can absorb chakra but he can't absrb Susano'o and that's it.



> And Samehada is above Preta path in terms of absorption speed.


Pretha path is far above Samehada in terms of absorption speed, V2 Bee cloak was instantly absrobed.



> It took preta forever to absorb jiraiyas fodder Katon, enough time that Jiraiya had time to KO other paths while it did that.


No the number of panels never represent the speed. Kishi draw more or less panels whenever he wants, there is no time logic.



> Samehada absorbed V1 cloaks and V2 cloaks in the span of fractions of seconds.


Nagato instantly absorbed V2 Bee cloak which is a superior feat.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

Please slow down LOL, this is getting hard to keep up with.



Sapherosth said:


> If Samehada showed Pain, it seems to me that it's a living being that's also capable of dying. If it is forced to excessively absorb something it doesn't like, there's absolutely no reason why Samehada wouldn't just betray Kisame again considering how easy it was for him to betray Kisame for something he likes.



Hidan enjoys Pain, is a true immortal.

Samehada's mindset should not be considered in the battledome unless specified by the OP.

But, assuming it is, why wouldn't it continue to absorb it? What's it gonna do? Just say fuck it, i'm not absorbing anymore and lets itself die? No.

He also only betrayed Kisame for something it likes greatly, not something it dislikes.



Sapherosth said:


> Susano arrows are also too fast for Kisame to put up Samehada to defend against it considering Kakashi with SHARINGAN couldn't even move. Killer Bee V2 has never shown the speed comparable to Susano arrow speed either.



Kisame's reflexes>>>>Kakashi's up until DMS Rikudo




Yoko said:


> n none of your images does Amaterasu actually hit it's intended target. These are low-end feats where the target is collateral damage and not the actual focus of the user.
> 
> Practically every single time Amaterasu hit it's mark (where the user was focusing), it has been effective.



Doesn't matter if it's the intended target or not, are you actually suggesting Amaterasu is weaker against targets it's not supposed to hit?

So the Amaterasu aimed at V2 AAAA, it was some how weaker because it didn't hit him, and it was burning for a long ass time, long enough to where AAAA and Sasuke had time to finish the battle.

That Samurai situation alone should dismantle the Amaterasu wank here, but it doesn't, and I don't know why.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 26, 2016)

Sasuke lights his head on fire with Amaterasu. He doesn't have fast enough reflexes to do anything about it. There's literally nothing that suggests he's anywhere near fast enough to dodge it


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

Yoko said:


> what exactly has Kisame done to give him reflexes above Kakashi?


Nothing


Yoko said:


> Bar god tiers, only the likes of the Raikage and Minato have shown reflexes / reactions comparable to (or above) Sharingan users.


Exactly, precog is on another level in terms of reaction speed, thats kind of the whole point after all lol.


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## Yoko (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Doesn't matter if it's the intended target or not, are you actually suggesting Amaterasu is weaker against targets it's not supposed to hit?



Yes, I am "actually suggesting that" and gave you manga panels supporting this.  It is clearly a trend.

Using collateral damage to write off Amaterasu as incompetent is a weak argument when we have scans of what a successful Amaterasu burst can do.


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

This guy has got to be kidding me.


Absorbing katon>>> now hr can absorb amaterasu.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Yes, I am "actually suggesting that" and gave you manga panels supporting this.  It is clearly a trend.
> 
> Using collateral damage to write off Amaterasu as incompetent is a weak argument when we have scans of what a successful Amaterasu burst can do.





Troyse22 said:


> So the Amaterasu aimed at V2 AAAA, it was some how weaker because it didn't hit him, and it was burning for a long ass time, long enough to where AAAA and Sasuke had time to finish the battle.
> 
> That Samurai situation alone should dismantle the Amaterasu wank here, but it doesn't, and I don't know why.



Still waiting for that response.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Yes, I am "actually suggesting that" and gave you manga panels supporting this.  It is clearly a trend.
> 
> Using collateral damage to write off Amaterasu as incompetent is a weak argument when we have scans of what a successful Amaterasu burst can do.





Troyse22 said:


> So the Amaterasu aimed at V2 AAAA, it was some how weaker because it didn't hit him, and it was burning for a long ass time, long enough to where AAAA and Sasuke had time to finish the battle.
> 
> That Samurai situation alone should dismantle the Amaterasu wank here, but it doesn't, and I don't know why.



Still waiting for that response.



WorldsStrongest said:


> EMS Sasuke mid diffs kisame at best, MS sasuke beats him more times than not, EMS is overkill.
> 
> Amaterasu is all thats needed, kisame is way too slow to react to it, and has no way to get the flames off of his body once hes hit short of amputation, just like A was forced to do. Sasuke can also spam enton for days now, withno drawbacks, sooner or later, kisame eats some black flames and goes down for the count. Nothing suggests samehada can absorb enton, it was in excruciating pain from absorbing a fraction of itachis fodder katon and it didnt even eat the entire fireball, samehada has no shot against enton.
> 
> ...



I will address this later, I need a break, the comments are flooding and I can't keep up lol.

But no worries, i'll be back in a bit and will address this first thing.


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## Sapherosth (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Hidan enjoys Pain, is a true immortal.
> 
> Samehada's mindset should not be considered in the battledome unless specified by the OP.
> 
> ...




Samehada isn't immortal...comparing him to Hidan is ridiculous. He's the only one in the manga who enjoys that sort of shit. Samehada clearly doesn't like it.

Samehada's mindset should always be considered, unless otherwise stated. It happened in the manga where it betrayed Kisame. There's no reason it won't happen again.

It's exactly the same thing....Samehada leaving because it likes something just means it would be willing to leave if it dislikes Kisame. A simple spike on the handle will make Kisame drop him, just like how it drops other people who holds it. 

It's obviously clear that if Samehada doesn't like something, it makes it known. 




> Kisame's reflexes>>>>Kakashi's up until DMS Rikudo



Unsubstantiated. Kakashi was reacting to V2 Jin speed as well. More of them in fact, whereas Kisame got his chest torn apart.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Yoko (Nov 26, 2016)

I'm not sure what you are waiting for.  

It was intended for the Raikage but hit the Samurai instead.  It was a collateral damage Amaterasu.  If Sasuke kept staring at the Samurai and continued powering the jutsu, you'd have an argument.


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 26, 2016)

Even if the flames of Amaterasu were to burn super slow, doesn't change the fact that Kidame would eventually die from them regardless


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> And since Kisame can absorb chakra through skin contact, he gets a shitload of chakra and absorbs Sasuke's Susanoo, grabbing him is the last thing Sasuke should do


Hes getting popped like a zit, absorption doesnt matter.


Troyse22 said:


> This is emote worthy.


Thanks for the warning.


Troyse22 said:


> your reflexes. Your eyes can keep up but if your body can't it's pointless, as proven when Sasuke couldn't keep up with KN1 Naruto at VOTE in P1 until he used CS2
> 
> Kisame's reflexes undoubtedly are above Kakashis (bar DMS Rikudo Rikudo Kakashi) due to his swordsman background and his reactionary feats.


Kakashi was the one who taught Sasuke and trained him to keep up. 

You goy anything that suggests that Kisane has better reflexes? If not, I'd prefer to stick with the manga.


Troyse22 said:


> Will address bold, the rest is just semantics, and i've already addressed the underlined


They aren't semantics, he couldnt even breK out pf kurenai genjutsu.

You know what is semantics though? You sayingt that Samehada cant die because lack of organs, which is baseles.


Troyse22 said:


> Samehada is a tasty chakra whore, but it still cared deeply for Kisame, as it was clearly very upset about its death and mourned. Samehada didn't like Bee, only the taste of his chakra.
> 
> That was because Kisame's portrayal was still relatively weak in P1 (only being portrayed as slightly above high jounin level) but in part 2 we really saw what Samehada was capable of, and what was implied that it was capable of.


Semantics. If he loved Kisame so much he wouldnt have abandoned him.


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Be careful @Troyse22, I've heard @ARGUS is working on a new Wall of Fail.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Hidan enjoys Pain, is a true immortal.


Irrelevant, hidan is not here, kisame is not hidan, samehada is not hidan.



Troyse22 said:


> Samehada's mindset should not be considered in the battledome unless specified by the OP.


I disagree, if things are IC, then samehadas canon mindset has to be taken into account, thats what IC means after all.



Troyse22 said:


> What's it gonna do? Just say fuck it, i'm not absorbing anymore and lets itself die? No.


Absorbing the flames isnt something it can even do, it was in severe pain from katon, enton>>>katon by a landslide.



Troyse22 said:


> He also only betrayed Kisame for something it likes greatly, not something it dislikes.


If an enticing chakra is enough to sway samehadas loyalty, then the promise of not being in agonizing pain would produce a similar result.

Samehada is clearly a fickle bitch.


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame's reflexes>>>>Kakashi's up until DMS Rikudo


*110% baseless,* no one outside of top tier speedsters have reactions even comparable to sharingan users.



Troyse22 said:


> Doesn't matter if it's the intended target or not, are you actually suggesting Amaterasu is weaker against targets it's not supposed to hit?


Obviously...look at the sheer difference in volume of flames that hit hachibi compared to what hit karin...theres your answer...

People also blow the karin example wayyyyy out of proportion...

People act like she sat there coated in amaterasu for like an hour and it did jack to her, which is blatantly wrong. Sasuke moved to extinguish the little amount of flames immediately after she got caught on fire, she had those flames on her for a little over an instant before sasuke put em out, real fire wouldnt do much to the human body irl if only your clothes caught on fire and said fire was extinguished 2 seconds later, itd be unpleasant, but it wouldnt be the worst thing either.



Troyse22 said:


> That Samurai situation alone should dismantle the Amaterasu wank here, but it doesn't, and I don't know why.


The samurai was wearing armor, and not a great amount of amaterasu even hit him iirc, armor has a much higher melting point than human flesh. And again, its a manga, there is no logic when it comes to how long each panel lasts, but if you think about it, that samurai was only on fire very briefly.

A was moving  in his V2 state and immediately hit sasuke who was like 10 feet away from him, he could easily cross that distance in less than a second in V2, he then jumped in the air and tried to leg drop sasuke, which again, would take little more than a second, then gaara and his siblings intervened at that exact instant and saved A and the samurai.

So the samurai, who was wearing full armor, was burning for a few seconds at best before he was saved from the fire. Again, blown out of proportion to low ball amaterasu.


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Be careful @Troyse22, I've heard @ARGUS is working on a new Wall of Fail.



I don't think he's as active anymore but doesn't @Shinobi no Kami have one as well?


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)




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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 26, 2016)

This thread needs closed like my Kisame vs Obito one. Both are obviously stomps in the Uchiha's favor


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)

The battledome is so action packed and drama filled now.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> This thread needs closed like my Kisame vs Obito one. Both are obviously stomps in the Uchiha's favor



If this is locked I will take it as a concession on the part of the moderator who locked it.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> This thread needs closed like my Kisame vs Obito one. Both are obviously stomps in the Uchiha's favor


Agreed, kisame isnt in the same league.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Maybe you should stop constantly disliking his posts.



Maybe you should stop bringing up things that happened 3 months ago?

Grow up.


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Maybe you should stop bringing up things that happened 3 months ago?
> 
> Grow up.




Doesn't change a thing, literally all of his posts had a dislike on it from you.

Counter my points.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Counter my points.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sapherosth (Nov 26, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> The battledome is so action packed and drama filled now.




They did say they wanted to increase activity in BD.....

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> If this is locked I will take it as a concession on the part of the moderator who locked it.


You can think that all you want, but you'd be just as wrong as you are about Daikodan being the strongest Jutsu in the series.

Plugging your ears and screaming you're right to drown out the valid arguments of others makes it hard for people to take you seriously btw. Have you ever conceded anything?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

EMs Sasuke is like an entire tier above Kisame.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)

@Jackalinthebox Wait...What the fuck..Daikodan strongest jutsu in the series? If that's the case Kisame is honestly God tier and on the likes of Madara uchiha and above. When was this said??


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

Okay, here we go.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Amaterasu is all thats needed, kisame is way too slow to react to it, and has no way to get the flames off of his body once hes hit short of amputation



If Kisame is hit by Amaterasu, he simply places Samehada where ever it is, it absorbs it, he doesn't need to rip off his arm Raikage style.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke can also spam enton for days now, withno drawbacks, sooner or later, kisame eats some black flames and goes down for the count. Nothing suggests samehada can absorb enton, it was in excruciating pain from absorbing a fraction of itachis fodder katon and it didnt even eat the entire fireball, samehada has no shot against enton.



Addressed this already.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Amaterasu is a waterproof flame, so in the event kisame uses waterdome, sasuke can still gg him with amaterasu, he just ignites kisamehada and he burns to death underwater because screw science



Kisamehada absorbs it. He absorbs chakra through skin contact, and as such, bye bye Amaterasu.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke can also escape waterdome via aoda thanks to his aquatic anatomy and sheer size, he carries sasuke to safety outside the dome, that or sasuke sics aoda on kisame who stalls shark boy while sasuke escapes on his own, and while outside, he could prep kirin while aoda deals with kisame, then kirin the entire waterdome, killing aoda and kisame in one fell swoop, its perfectly IC for sasuke to do this, he threw mandas life away against deidara after all.



Already addressed Aoda in my OP, Aoda gets fodderized by 1000 feeding sharks. Sasuke also seems warmer toward Aoda than Manda. Sasuke is even shown to care for his hawk.

Did you forget that waterdome is mobile?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke also has his hawk, he could summon that thing and camp on it, spamming enton and susanoo arrows while safely out of kisames reach until hes cooked. He could also prep kirin while hes up there, kisame gets negged by kirin.



So Sasuke with only manga knowledge summons his hawk, stays in the air, and just waits for Kirin to prep? 


Bull.shit.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Genjutsu gg is also a constant threat, kisame was neg diff caught by kurenais fodder genjutsu, kisame has 0 chance in hell at breaking out of EMS augmented visual genjutsu. Genjutsu, if it doesnt outright KO kisame, sets up a massive opening that sasuke takes advantage of to take kisames head off with a chidori variant/enton variant/katana/susanoo attack.



Already addressed in detail.




WorldsStrongest said:


> isame cant break through susanoo, sasukes susanoo in particular hard counters him really. Sasuke can coat his susanoo in amaterasu, meaning if kisame ever tried to hit it with his blade, samehada gets caught on fire by enton and burns to death, as it cant absorb it. Daikodan also wont hurt sasukes susanoo once he goes V3, itachis V3 protected him from kirin, and itachi didnt have EMS, kirin>>>daikodan in DC, a V3 susanoo would tank a daikodan, a V4 wont even feel it.
> Kakashi with sharingan precog also couldnt react to susanoos arrows, kisame doesnt have better reactions than precog, nor does he have superior speed feats than kakashi to begin with, he cant dodge the arrows either, so arrow gg is a constant threat as well.



He doesn't need to break it, he absorbs it.

It can absorb Amaterasu, whether you like it or not, i've provided great reasoning for it, you obviously haven't read the OP or my follow up arguments.

Daikodan will bust any variant of Susanoo.


Kisame was able to react to a Raiton enhanced pencil point blank twice, once from his blind spot. He was able to react to a V1 blitz, as well as a 3 way blitz and V2 lariat charge.

That puts him above Kakashi's reaction speed bar DMS rikudo feats.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke has an answer to everything kisame has, he wins.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> EMs Sasuke is like an entire tier above Kisame.


pretty close


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 26, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> @Jackalinthebox Wait...What the fuck..Daikodan strongest jutsu in the series? If that's the case Kisame is honestly God tier and on the likes of Madara uchiha and above. When was this said??


Troyse said in a previous thread that Daikodan > Indra's Arrow

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> Wait...What the fuck..Daikodan strongest jutsu in the series? If that's the case Kisame is honestly God tier and on the likes of Madara uchiha and above. When was this said??



I've said this multiple times.

There's no indicated limit on Daikodan's power, only that it grows stronger in direct proportion to the enemies jutsu/chakra.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 3


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Everything Troyse has said is baseless. Samehada couldnt break out of a weak ass kurenai genjutsu in a second, Sasuke's 3TS genjutsu would one shot or hold him in place for a while.

--Samehada absorbing enton is fanfic

--Samehada breaking genjutsu is fanfic


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

From now on arguments that i've already addressed will be ignored. Such as "Samehada can't absorb amaterasu"

I've already addressed this multiple times in this thread, go back and them.

If you do not read the previous arguments presented and present the same arguments i've already addressed as new arguments, do not be surprised if I do not address them.

Troll comments will also be ignored, do not bait, be contributive to the topic at hand or leave the thread.

Thank you =)

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I've said this multiple times.
> 
> There's no indicated limit on Daikodan's power, only that it grows stronger in direct proportion to the enemies jutsu/chakra.


Then I gues Yata can reflect Rikudo COFRS and Indra Arroa as wrll


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## Android (Nov 26, 2016)

So all the rumors of Troyse preparing a long ass essay on Kisame >> EMS Sasuke were true huh ?? 

Sasuke negs

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

You havent addressed shit.You just made a leap from fodder C rank Katon to thw strongest Katon in existence.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> You havent addressed shit.You just made a leap from fodder C rank Katon to thw strongest Katon in existence.



I've addressed it in detail. Will not address it any further unless someone wants to quote my counter arguments that i've provided and say why they disagree.

"because it's a featless shit jutsu with horrendous inconsistencies" is not one.


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)

Let's keep this a nice and friendly debating environment. Yes I don't agree with some things @Troyse22 says that involves Kisame. But I've read @IzayaOrihara essays and have been convinced by them before, just read his essay and why he thinks Kisame will win. It's not like he said Kisame can mid or low diff he said high and when a fight is won in high diff I think that the other fighter has a chance to get a w.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Android (Nov 26, 2016)

Sasuke has the tools to track a fucking 10 tails Jinchuuriki , read his speed , and force him to block .

Wtf is a scrub like Kisame gonna do to him 

This is just , oh my , oh my , can't breath , can't breath .......

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> If Kisame is hit by Amaterasu, he simply places Samehada where ever it is, it absorbs it,


Samahada cant absorb enton, it suffered great pain from fodder katon that it didnt even fully absorb, no way in hell is it absorbing the pinnacle of fire style with this in mind.



Troyse22 said:


> Addressed this already.


No, you really havent



Troyse22 said:


> Kisamehada absorbs it. He absorbs chakra through skin contact, and as such, bye bye Amaterasu.


Kisamehadas absorbtion ability comes from samehada, as such it has the same limits, meaning it cannot absorb amaterasu/enton.

Amaterasu means byebye kisame, not the other way around.



Troyse22 said:


> Already addressed Aoda in my OP, Aoda gets fodderized by 1000 feeding sharks.


Clearly you didnt read my post as i pointed out why this is BS, 1000 sharks=MP more or less, and theres no way MP is taking down a boss summon, 1000 sharks get tanked by aoda.



Troyse22 said:


> Sasuke also seems warmer toward Aoda than Manda. Sasuke is even shown to care for his hawk.


Sasuke isnt warm to anything, if it means winning, hes gonna roast aoda on a spit, end of story.



Troyse22 said:


> Already addressed in detail.


No, you really didnt, samehada cannot break kisame out of jack shit, and thats the only argument ive ever seen you put forth as a defense kisame has against genjutsu and its blatant fanfic. Show me a single scan of samehada even registering it knows genjutsu exists, let alone possessing the knowledge on how to break kisame out of it. Ill wait.




Troyse22 said:


> He doesn't need to break it, he absorbs it.


Mokuton cant, susanoo was wrapped around kurama for expressly that purpose, so kuramas chakra couldnt be absorbed, this fact alone tells us susanoos chakra cannot be absorbed, samehada has jack against mokuton, it cant absorb susanoo, same with daikodan. Susanoo is stabilized chakra, something that is a property unique to it, it seems to posses a resistance to being absorbed, as such, kisame cant eat it with anything he has.



Troyse22 said:


> It can absorb Amaterasu, whether you like it or not,


It really cant, theres nothing indicating it can when it couldnt even absorb all of itachis fodder katon, and what little it did absorb caused it literal agony.



Troyse22 said:


> i've provided great reasoning for it, you obviously haven't read the OP or my follow up arguments.


No you havent, because no reasoning can be made that it does.



Troyse22 said:


> Daikodan will bust any variant of Susanoo.




Kirin>>>>>Daikodan, kirin couldnt do any meaningful damage to itachi through his V3, what the hell is daikodan gonna do against a superior V4?



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame was able to react to a Raiton enhanced pencil point blank twice


Coating raiton around something doesnt increase its flight speed, only its penetrative force, so he effectively dodged shuriken, not terribly impressive.



Troyse22 said:


> He was able to react to a V1 blitz, as well as a 3 way blitz and V2 lariat charge.


Awesome, kakashi was keeping up with multiple V2 jin hosts and got out without a scratch, thats superior to barely reacting to a single V2 jin and getting half of your chest blown off as a result.



Troyse22 said:


> That puts him above Kakashi's reaction speed bar DMS rikudo feats.


No, it doesnt.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Samahada cant absorb enton, it suffered great pain from fodder katon that it didnt even fully absorb, no way in hell is it absorbing the pinnacle of fire style with this in mind.



addressed why it can, go back and read, if you have a problem with my reasoning, quote it, thank you.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Clearly you didnt read my post as i pointed out why this is BS, 100 sharks=MP more or less, and theres no way MP is taking down a boss summon, 1000 sharks get tanked by aoda.



Sure, Aoda can tank getting eaten alive...no....he dies so fast not even EMS Sasuke sees wtf happened.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No, you really didnt, samehada cannot break kisame out of jack shit, and thats the only argument ive ever seen you put forth as a defense kisame has against genjutsu and its blatant fanfic. Show me a single scan of samehada even registering it knows genjutsu exists, let alone possessing the knowledge on how to break kisame out of it. Ill wait.



Kisame with manga knowledge simply won't look into Sasuke's eyes.

If Samehada can transfer/give chakra, it can disrupt chakra, that's all there is to.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Mokuton cant, susanoo was wrapped around kurama for expressly that purpose, so kuramas chakra couldnt be absorbed, this fact alone tells us susanoos chakra cannot be absorbed, samehada has jack against mokuton, it cant absorb susanoo, same with daikodan. Susanoo is stabilized chakra, something that is a property unique to it, it seems to posses a resistance to being absorbed, as such, kisame cant eat it with anything he has.



Mokuton and Samehada are different, i've already addressed this, but, typical from you, you didn't read my earlier arguments. Some of you guys are so lazy with that, go back and read the earlier arguments, having to repeat myself is tedious.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Awesome, kakashi was keeping up with multiple V2 jin hosts and got out without a scratch, thats superior to barely reacting to a single V2 jin and getting half of your chest blown off as a result.



With allies around to protect him, not that impressive, are you actually suggesting Kakashi can keep up with Multiple V2 jin alone?

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Blu-ray (Nov 26, 2016)

Even if I could grant you every other point...



Troyse22 said:


> *Now for the elephant in the room. Genjutsu*
> 
> First things first, Sasuke has not shown any genjutsu that's Tsukuyomi/Izanami level (bar maybe his Rinnegan genjutsu, but he doesn't have that here) all of his jutsu can be broken by either 1. disturbing his own chakra or 2. Samehada disturbing his chakra
> 
> ...



This is some extreme bullocks. It implies Itachi level genjutsu is needed to deal with Kisame in the first place and gives Samehada the ability to break it's wielder out of genjutsu, an ability it has never demonstrated or was implied to have. Both Kisame and Bee have been trapped by genjutsu and in neither instance did Samehada try to break them out.

Sasuke can straight up knock him out with genjutsu too as he did to C, so there's nothing to even break.


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

VHS said:


> Even if I could grant you every other point...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please, don't lock this! It's my comedy relief.

Its pretty clear that EMS sasuke's genjutsu  can one shot, Kisame couldnt break out of piss weak Kurenai genjutsu.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Please, don't lock this! It's my comedy relief.


Not a battledome mod anyway. Have your fun.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

VHS said:


> Even if I could grant you every other point...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The Samehada situation is certainly controversial no doubt, but it possesses the ability to give and transfer chakra, logic dictates it can disrupt it.

Portrayal for Kisame was also substantially lower in P1 than in P2, hence why Samehada didn't in P1.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Please, don't lock this! It's my comedy relief.
> 
> Its pretty clear that EMS sasuke's genjutsu  can one shot, Kisame couldnt break out of piss weak Kurenai genjutsu.



Aaaaand done reading ignored content.

Forgot what kids can be like...


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Aaaaand done reading ignored content.
> 
> Forgot what kids can be like...


Concession accepted.
No one agrees with you anyways.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Concession accepted.
> No one agrees with you anyways.





LAZLOLAZZING said:


> @Troyse22 has convinced me  nice shit yo, I loved the way you structured it and how your intro was. You listed your points then stated that Kisame wins high diff and that he just counters Saskue, and honestly the points you made and why he counters supports it. So good job yo.




Had to go back on my word (lol) to respond to that

The only non-biased opposition I have is Worldsstrongest, the rest are pretty notably biased against me.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> addressed why it can, go back and read, if you have a problem with my reasoning, quote it, thank you.


Your reasoning in the OP is basically "eh why not" and ignoring th etrouble fodder katon caused it, not really valid.

You specifically claim "nothing indicates that it(samehada) wiont(absorb amaterasu)" despite the fact it cant even eat the majority of itachis fodder katon without screaming in pain.

Its quite a jump from katon to enton to begin with.



Troyse22 said:


> Sure, Aoda can tank getting eaten alive...no....he dies so fast not even EMS Sasuke sees wtf happened.


So i say, MP=1000 sharks which is manga fact, and then i say its highly doubtful MP takes out a boss summon, and you reply by just restating your opinion without refuting my reasoning? ohhhhhkay then...



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame with manga knowledge simply won't look into Sasuke's eyes.


Which is greatly detrimental to his fighting style, very few people can effectively fight in this manner, and kisame isnt one if those few bud.



Troyse22 said:


> If Samehada can transfer/give chakra, it can disrupt chakra, that's all there is to.


Ummmm no...a genjutsu kai is shown  to be a tad different then simply lending chakra to another. 

Add to that, samehada also wont even know to give kisame chakra, it has only shown the ability to give kisame chakra as it heals him, its not gonna think to heal kisame (and thus give him chakra) if he isnt visibly wounded, and a genjutsu doesnt visibly wound you, meaning samehada is useless against genjutsu. 

It cant recognize kisame is in danger from one, how do you expect it to defend against something it doesnt even realize is happening?



Troyse22 said:


> Mokuton and Samehada are different


Yeah...mokuton is in another league...and it still cant absorb susanoo...nuff said...



Troyse22 said:


> Some of you guys are so lazy with that, go back and read the earlier arguments, having to repeat myself is tedious.


I know that feel bro, ive listed why its BS that samehada can absorb amaterasu and break genjutsu multiple times now, but here we are, where im forced to reiterate uncontested points yet again.



Troyse22 said:


> With allies around to protect him, not that impressive, are you actually suggesting Kakashi can keep up with Multiple V2 jin alone?


He fought 3, while gai and naruto fought the others, he wasnt blitzed by any, kisame damn near was, all there is to it.

Kakashi>Kisame in reactions and he cant react to susanoo arrows, meaning neither can kisame.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blu-ray (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> The Samehada situation is certainly controversial no doubt, but it possesses the ability to give and transfer chakra, logic dictates it can disrupt it.
> 
> Portrayal for Kisame was also substantially lower in P1 than in P2, hence why Samehada didn't in P1.



Samehada didn't in part 2 either, so whatever portrayal you're talking about is irrelevant here.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You specifically claim "nothing indicates that it(samehada) wiont(absorb amaterasu)" despite the fact it cant even eat the majority of itachis fodder katon without screaming in pain.
> 
> Its quite a jump from katon to enton to begin with.



Except pain does not equate to difficulty absorbing.

Samehada's absorption abilities were not hindered in the slightest against that Katon.



WorldsStrongest said:


> So i say, MP=1000 sharks which is manga fact, and then i say its highly doubtful MP takes out a boss summon, and you reply by just restating your opinion without refuting my reasoning? ohhhhhkay then...



Not sure what MP is honestly, i've yet to see the abbreviation (so my apologies if this response leaves something to be desired, please clarify)



WorldsStrongest said:


> Which is greatly detrimental to his fighting style, very few people can effectively fight in this manner, and kisame isnt one if those few bud.



Neither can Minato, but i've seen you use that logic to defend Minato vs Itachi.

Kisame could also create a lake and stay underwater, thus negating Sasuke's genjutsu.




WorldsStrongest said:


> Add to that, samehada also wont even know to give kisame chakra, it has only shown the ability to give kisame chakra as it heals him, its not gonna think to heal kisame (and thus give him chakra) if he isnt visibly wounded, and a genjutsu doesnt visibly wound you, meaning samehada is useless against genjutsu.
> 
> It cant recognize kisame is in danger from one, how do you expect it to defend against something it doesnt even realize is happening?



It's a sentient being, it can sense and perceive danger, it has also shown to attack and block on its own. If Kisame's behavior is far outside the ordinary (he starts swinging at nothing or he just stand there) Samehada is going to know something horribly wrong and will immediately disperse the genjutsu.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah...mokuton is in another league...and it still cant absorb susanoo...nuff said...



They both have their merits, as they're 2 different "styles" of absorption


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

VHS said:


> Samehada didn't in part 2 either, so whatever portrayal you're talking about is irrelevant here.



Kisame in P1 was portrayed as a low kage/high jonin level Shinobi, and as we've seen in P2, he's far above that.

It's not irrelevant, it's perfectly valid 

Kisame also was not placed under genjutsu in P2.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Except pain does not equate to difficulty absorbing.


Extreme pain caused by doing a task=having difficulty doing said task , dont know what else to tell you



Troyse22 said:


> Not sure what MP is honestly


Morning peacock



Troyse22 said:


> Neither can Minato, but i've seen you use that logic to defend Minato vs Itachi.


Off topic but...

Minato can thanks to his fighting style, which is repeated blindside attacks at blinding speed, ergo no eye contact.

This is nowhere near kisames fighting style, and he hasnt trained to compensate against visual techs like gai has, therefore he is in danger of genjutsu constantly.



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame could also create a lake and stay underwater, thus negating Sasuke's genjutsu.


But when he gets close to sasuke, he gets genjutsu-ed, and if he stays away, he gets amaterasu-ed as he cant absorb it, its a lose-lose for kisame.



Troyse22 said:


> If Kisame's behavior is far outside the ordinary (he starts swinging at nothing or he just stand there)


It wouldnt necessarily be out of the ordinary, sharingan genjutsu can be paralysis based, as shown by mads multiple times. Samehada wont view standing still for 3 seconds out of the ordinary.



Troyse22 said:


> Samehada is going to know something horribly wrong and will immediately disperse the genjutsu.


It Wont realize anything, sasuke needs a very small window to end kisame while hes in a genjutsu, its not like hes gonna go prep kirin and give samehada 5 minutes to figure out dafuq is wrong with fish boy, sasuke would genjutsu him, and lop his head off half a second later.



Troyse22 said:


> They both have their merits, as they're 2 different "styles" of absorption


Mokuton could suppress 100% kurama in seconds once SS peeled susanoo of of it, samehada couldnt even absorb a V1 cloak from gyuki, samehada is dirt by comparison.

Mokuton cant eat susanoo, so neither can samehada, not by a long shot.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame in P1 was portrayed as a low kage/high jonin level Shinobi, and as we've seen in P2, he's far above that.
> 
> It's not irrelevant, it's perfectly valid
> 
> Kisame also was not placed under genjutsu in P2.



Bee was, and Samehada didn't attempt to break him out. What Kisame is portrayed as is irrelevant since it's gonna be Samaheda that's breaking the genjutsu according to you.

Also, portrayal doesn't mean randomly giving people abilities they don't have. Besides, everyone's portrayal changed thanks to the powercreep. Relative to his peers, Kisame is still the same.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

VHS said:


> Also, portrayal doesn't mean randomly giving people abilities they don't have.


Thank you

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

_*Right then, time to debunk this fanfictional nonsense.
*_


Troyse22 said:


> He possesses one of the greatest defenses in the manga (Susanoo), but sadly, this is countered by Samehada or Daikodan, which make quick work of Susanoo, and as such, it's nothing but a chakra sink for Sasuke in a battle against Kisame.



You've got to kidding me. Not even Hashirama's Mokuton sufficed. Anyways, Kisame wouldn't be able to get close to Sasuke because whatever he dishes out can be countered via Amaterasu Magatama and Susanoo Arrows, which even MS Kakashi couldn't dodge.

Until you bring feats that prove Kisame > Kakashi in reaction speeds, I think I'll stick to canon instead of fanfiction, deal? If Kisame even gets close to Sasuke, ribcage arm pops him like a zit.





> And, he possesses the strongest Katon in existence (Amaterasu). This is one of my more controversial arguments. I believe Samehada can and would absorb Amaterasu, and there's several reasons why.
> 
> 1. Samehada would undoubtedly do more for Kisame to help him survive, as it was visually distressed at Kisame's death, suggesting it still had a strong bond with him. It would not complain like it did in the hands of killer bee.
> 
> ...



Despite Samehada leaving his master of years just because he wanted to taste some octupus? Does that sound right to you?


Amaterasu also burned through
1. A fire eating toad's stomach in seconds
2. Caused Hachibi to thrash in pain
3. Burning the Juubi and causing it to thrash in pain
4. Burning through CS2 Sasuke's wing instantly

There are more. Keep clinging to outliers to support your Kisame wank.

True, it never showed any problem absorbing Katon. You're just making a biased ass jump from C Rank Fodder Katon to the strongest Katon in existence. Nice fanfic tho
Mad reach.


> First things first, Sasuke has not shown any genjutsu that's Tsukuyomi/Izanami level (bar maybe his Rinnegan genjutsu, but he doesn't have that here) all of his jutsu can be broken by either 1. disturbing his own chakra or 2. Samehada disturbing his chakra


Mkay.


> Sasuke is not the Genjutsu titan that Itachi is, and as such, his genjutsu is little to no threat against Kisame.
> 
> Samehada can disrupt Kisame's chakra, as it can give/transfer chakra directly to Kisame, disrupting his chakra.



How the fuck will Samehada know that Kisame is in genjutsu? Paralasis genjutsu will make him stand still, not that out of the ordinary. More than enough time for him to get popped like a zit by Susanoo arm.

I think I'll stick to canon facts and common sense rather than fanfiction, thanks.


> Kisame has exceptional reactionary feats, reacting to V2 Lariat blitz and reacting AND COUNTERING to a 3 way blitz. All Kisame would need to do is put Samehada in front of it and allow it to absorb Susanoo arrow.


He reacted to shit.
Plus, moot point when you realize that Susanoo Arrow is probably > Lariat in speed.

Samehada absorbs Susanoo arrow? Are you kidding me right now? Are you sure it can absorb something that moves at such high speeds and will kill Samehada probably instantly once it hits?

You even sure Kisame can react to that?


> Kisame was able to react and dodge a Raiton infused pencil from point blank range from Bee, only getting a cut on his ear. No reason to believe he can't replicate that against Sasuke.


So a fucking pencil = a high velocity arrow launched so fast that even a skilled MS user couldn't dodge it?



> That was because Kisame's portrayal was still relatively weak in P1 (only being portrayed as slightly above high jounin level) but in part 2 we really saw what Samehada was capable of, and what was implied that it was capable of.


What? Having good portrayal doesn't mean you can pull fanfics out of your ass.


> Hidan enjoys Pain, is a true immortal.
> 
> Samehada's mindset should not be considered in the battledome unless specified by the OP.
> 
> ...


Which is completely irrelevant to the discussion on hand.


> Kisame's reflexes>>>>Kakashi's up until DMS Rikudo


Got feats for this?


> That Samurai situation alone should dismantle the Amaterasu wank here, but it doesn't, and I don't know why.


Nope.


> Amaterasu also burned through
> 1. A fire eating toad's stomach in seconds
> 2. Caused Hachibi to thrash in pain
> 3. Burning the Juubi and causing it to thrash in pain
> 4. Burning through CS2 Sasuke's wing instantly

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)




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## HandfullofNaruto (Nov 26, 2016)

NLF: No Limits Fallacy

Reactions: Like 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 26, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> NLF: No Limits Fallacy


Daikodan? Daikodan.

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

Omg this thread 

Holy shit and I thought that with Izaya becoming inactive, Battledome is going to go to shit quickly. How wrong was I!!! Keep it up everyone!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Yes it does make that big a difference. Zetsu is a poor fighter, Kisame is not. There's not really discussion to be had in that regard.


Ok, so do you think that Kisame would have successfully fired Daikodan before KB&Ay would reach him there? 




> Samehada begins its absorption BEFORE any ability touches the blade itself. Susanoo arrow is pure chakra, there's no "base" its just chakra in the form of an arrow. The quantity of the chakra is not so huge that Samehada cannot handle it. It doesn't matter how sharp or whatever it is. It doesn't make a slight bit of difference. Samehada absorbs Susanoo arrow.


But Samehada didn't managed to eat KB's shroud in one interval, it took several intervals during Kisame was getting his chest open for Samehada to eat some V2 chakra and turning KB into V1.
I know Susanoo Arrow is nothing like bijuu chakra, but look at its size


Do you really think that Samehada manages to absorb all of that before it reaches Kisame?


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## Ayala (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Omg this thread
> 
> Holy shit and I thought that with Izaya becoming inactive, Battledome is going to go to shit quickly. How wrong was I!!! Keep it up everyone!



Who is this izaya guy and why is he so praised?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Who is this izaya guy and why is he so praised?



You really don't know who izaya is?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Nov 26, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> You really don't know who izaya is?



He really must be something eh


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Who is this izaya guy and why is he so praised?


Sannin, or mainly Orochimaru's fan who was doing the similar thing as Troyse is now. Basically he was trying to prove that Orochimaru is much stronger than it is believed here, usually writing like 3000+ words essays on why Orochimaru is stronger than X etc. He also had really funny insults when someone made him mad.
He was an extreme version of Troyse. Although he was pretty hated, I always liked the guy. He was friendly and his arguments made sense, but they were just too long to read.


*edit:* examples of why he is infamous/famous



but you just need to see this thread to really understand LOL

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Sannin, or mainly Orochimaru's fan who was doing the similar thing as Troyse is now. Basically he was trying to prove that Orochimaru is much stronger than it is believed here, usually writing like 3000+ words essays on why Orochimaru is stronger than X etc. He also had really funny insults when someone made him mad.
> He was an extreme version of Troyse. Although he was pretty hated, I always liked the guy. He was friendly and his arguments made sense, but they were just too long to read.


At least Izaya never resorted to fanfics like Troyse.


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## Ayala (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Sannin, or mainly Orochimaru's fan who was doing the similar thing as Troyse is now. Basically he was trying to prove that Orochimaru is much stronger than it is believed here, usually writing like 3000+ words essays on why Orochimaru is stronger than X etc. He also had really funny insults when someone made him mad.
> He was an extreme version of Troyse. Although he was pretty hated, I always liked the guy. He was friendly and his arguments made sense, but they were just too long to read.



Lol, you know who Troyse's favourite was before Kisame joined? Orochimaru bruh 

Im suspecting this shit, there's no such coincidences.

Although if had had to find a difference, it would be this part:

"his arguments made sense"

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Lol, you know who Troyse's favourite was before Kisame joined? Orochimaru bruh
> 
> Im suspecting this shit, there's no such coincidences.
> 
> ...


Nah Izaya had completely different style of writing ... 

He was honestly like an alien, never understood what the guy really means etc

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)

I enjoyed reading izaya's arguments and they actually made sense and were very detailed and he made good points. Yes essays were very long but dude was dedicated, I honestly think he could have convinced more but not all like reading long post.


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)

My favorite izaya thread was Tsunade in depth analysis. I joined the forum and that was the first thread I read I believe.


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> At least Izaya never resorted to fanfics like Troyse.


What is the most absurd thing for you that Troyse claims?

I've never seen him claim some literally unreal shit honestly, or when he does I think he's not fully serious or whatever.


LAZLOLAZZING said:


> I enjoyed reading izaya's arguments and they actually made sense and were very detailed and he made good points. Yes essays were very long but dude was dedicated, I honestly think he could have convinced more but not all like reading long post.


Imo part of the art of convincing is being as summarizing as possible while still including the main points of your argument. Izaya was super good at arguments, but usually you had to read 500 words to fully get one of his arguments, which is why most people just told him to gtfo from start.


LAZLOLAZZING said:


> My favorite izaya thread was Tsunade in depth analysis. I joined the forum and that was the first thread I read I believe.


Yup it's this one I linked.


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> What is the most absurd thing for you that Troyse claims?
> 
> I've never seen him claim some literally unreal shit honestly, or when he does I think he's not fully serious or whatever.


NO DUDE, HE'S DEAD SERIOUS.

"Kisame is on par with Itachi/Kakashi in combat analysis and intelligence during battle"
"Deidara's most basic technique flipping over an entire island is not a feat worth hyping up"
"Kisame tanked Hirudora"


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> What is the most absurd thing for you that Troyse claims?
> 
> I've never seen him claim some literally unreal shit honestly, or when he does I think he's not fully serious or whatever.
> 
> ...


For me; it's his claim that Daikodan would absorb and overpower Indra's Arrow

Reactions: Like 3


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## Android (Nov 26, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> He really must be something eh


This is Izaya freaking Orihara

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 26, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> This is Izaya freaking Orihara


Oh shit good job, you get extra points for finding the real treasure.


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Oh shit good job, you get extra points for finding the real treasure.


lmao Izaya was a really funny guy.

One post he was addressing how Oral Rebirth counters Amaterasu, then suddenly he's writing his whole fucking essay again and going on a rant about how people dont read the manga

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Ayala (Nov 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> What is the most absurd thing for you that Troyse claims?
> 
> I've never seen him claim some literally unreal shit honestly, or when he does I think he's not fully serious or whatever.
> 
> ...



Daikodan eats through any version of Susano'o and one shots its user 

Samehada > Preta 

Kisame low diffed B 

..........


Some times ago, i remember he at least admitted Kisame would lose to Jiraiya due to Sage Mode chakra being a mess to absorb, and it would unbalance him turning him/samehada to stone. But at one point he said "fuck that" and not even SM users are a weakness to him no more...

I wonder what Troyse will be like after 1 year, considering he "advanced" this much in few months

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Ishmael (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> lmao Izaya was a really funny guy.
> 
> One post he was addressing how Oral Rebirth counters Amaterasu, then suddenly he's writing his whole fucking essay again and going on a rant about how people dont read the manga



Oral rebirth does counter Amaterasu in my opinion he did convince me when it came to that.


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## Ayala (Nov 26, 2016)

An "izaya vs Sapherosth" discussion would be incredible

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

Troyse is the king of No Limits fallacy.

He makes this jump from C rank fodder Katon to the strongest Katon in existence.  

That's like saying because I can take a punch from your average Joe, albeit with pain, and still fight, I can take a punch from Muhammad Ali and still fight.

FUCK OUTTA HERE


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## Sapherosth (Nov 26, 2016)

It's about time this shit gets locked tbh. 

This thread should get locked because of posters going on a rant about other posters.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Android (Nov 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Troyse is the king of No Limits fallacy.
> 
> He makes this jump from C rank fodder Katon to the strongest Katon in existence.
> 
> ...


Are you trying to be a @Klue's clone ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Klue (Nov 26, 2016)

Ninja is rockin' my style.

.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Parallaxis (Nov 26, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Are you trying to be a @Klue's clone ?


Yes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The All Unknowing (Nov 26, 2016)

lmao, come on man. Kisame > War Arc Sasuke? However the Kisametologists brainwashed you is an incredibly effective method. Next thing we know, you'll be jumping on Oprah's couch and shit. 

---> Sasuke raided the Kage summit right after he got MS. Far different from EMS. 
---> Karin survived Ameterasu because Sasuke turned it off. He wouldn't be so kind as to do that for an opponent. 
---> Samehada has NEVER been proven to absorb Amaterasu, nor Susanoo. Those 2 attacks have never been shown to be absorbed by any shinobi with a chakra absorbing ability, so I don't expect a sword with chakra absorbing ability to be able to do it either. Likewise, there's no proof of Samehada being able to disrupt genjutsu (though Sasuke's genjutsu wasn't that great anyways). 
---> Amaterasu ignites on whatever target the user is looking at. It's not shot at the opponent by the user. So even IF Samehada could absorb it, it wouldn't have the chance.

your argument in Kisame's favor is purely theoretical. Even assuming you're theory is correct, if Sasuke used Kagutsuchi to throw Amaterasu at him, so Samehada could intercept it, and he COULD absorb it, Amaterasu still wont extinguish, so Samehada would just sit there absorbing it while burning in excruciating pain. Which would essentially take Samehada out of the fight. And that would bode quite unfavorably for Kisame. As Sasuke would have free reign to use any technique he wanted without having to worry about it being absorbed. I just don't see Sasuke taking the L no matter how you look at it


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## Troyse22 (Nov 26, 2016)

Please try to stay OT guys.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Icegaze (Nov 27, 2016)

Enton arrow GG while staying on topic


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## Serene Grace (Nov 27, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> Samehada has NEVER been proven to absorb Amaterasu, nor Susanoo. Those 2 attacks have never been shown to be absorbed by any shinobi with a chakra absorbing ability, so I don't expect a sword with chakra absorbing ability to be able to do it either.


Wait are you suggesting that Susanoo and Amaterasu, can't be absorbed because it hasn't happened on panel?


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## The All Unknowing (Nov 28, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Wait are you suggesting that Susanoo and Amaterasu, can't be absorbed because it hasn't happened on panel?


pretty much. Susanoo is a Sharingan Kekkeigengai, not any regular elemental style. And Nagato, Obito and Madara all fought against it and didn't absorb it. I thought Amaterasu was as well, but after double-checking, it seems I was wrong. But then Itachi was able to use it against Nagato, who needed to use Shinra Tensei to get it off of him rather than just absorbing it. So yeah, without proof, I'm not going to just assume that it can be absorbed


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## t0xeus (Nov 28, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> pretty much. Susanoo is a Sharingan Kekkeigengai, not any regular elemental style. And Nagato, Obito and Madara all fought against it and didn't absorb it. I thought Amaterasu was as well, but after double-checking, it seems I was wrong. But then Itachi was able to use it against Nagato, who needed to use Shinra Tensei to get it off of him rather than just absorbing it. So yeah, without proof, I'm not going to just assume that it can be absorbed



*Spoiler*: _Proof_


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## Android (Nov 28, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> pretty much. Susanoo is a Sharingan Kekkeigengai,


Sharingan is a Kekkei Genkai , it's echniques are NOT .


The All Unknowing said:


> who needed to use Shinra Tensei to get it off of him rather than just absorbing it. So yeah, without proof, I'm not going to just assume that it can be


This is a joke right ? 
If Nagato absorb it instead of pushing it away , people would've been arguing that ST can't push it away .
Amaterasu has already been absorbd , twice i might add.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 28, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Sharingan is a Kekkei Genkai , it's echniques are NOT .


Pretty sure its just semantics to claim that sharingan is a kekkei genkai while something like amaterasu or tsukuyomi isnt. You get those abilities from having the sharingan, and those abilities are used through the sharingan and applying its unique properties, saying they arent kekkei genkai would be like arguing that hakus hyoton is a kekkei genkai, but the specific application of hyoton to make ice mirrors isnt. Doesnt add up.

At least, thats how i see it.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 28, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> pretty much. Susanoo is a Sharingan Kekkeigengai, not any regular elemental style. And Nagato, Obito and Madara all fought against it and didn't absorb it. I thought Amaterasu was as well, but after double-checking, it seems I was wrong. But then Itachi was able to use it against Nagato, who needed to use Shinra Tensei to get it off of him rather than just absorbing it. So yeah, without proof, I'm not going to just assume that it can be absorbed


Lol, that still doesn't change the fact that their both chakra, so they can both be absorbed by a chakra technique. Claiming they can't be absorbed because it hasn't been shown before on panel is fallacious.


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## Android (Nov 28, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Pretty sure its just semantics to claim that sharingan is a kekkei genkai while something like amaterasu or tsukuyomi isnt. You get those abilities from having the sharingan, and those abilities are used through the sharingan and applying its unique properties, saying they arent kekkei genkai would be like arguing that hakus hyoton is a kekkei genkai, but the specific application of hyoton to make ice mirrors isnt. Doesnt add up.
> 
> At least, thats how i see it.


Does the DB rank those techs as a Kekkei Genkai ? like Amaterasu ? Tsukuyomi ? Susanoo ? Kamui ? Koto ? 
Didn't think so .
The Sharingan is a bloodline limit , that's a fact , however it's techniques are not , otherwise you'd see all Uchiha sharing the same MS techs .


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## The All Unknowing (Nov 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Sharingan is a Kekkei Genkai , it's echniques are NOT .
> 
> This is a joke right ?
> If Nagato absorb it instead of pushing it away , people would've been arguing that ST can't push it away .
> Amaterasu has already been absorbd , twice i might add.


from looking it up, I saw Amaterasu wasn't, but Susanoo is a kekkeigenkai


emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Lol, that still doesn't change the fact that their both chakra, so they can both be absorbed by a chakra technique. Claiming they can't be absorbed because it hasn't been shown before on panel is fallacious.


Sage jutsu is too. But no absorbing. Well, Pain was able to. But turned to stone. But the JJ's were just outright weak to it... I dunno how Kishi would explain it, or if it's retcon, but yeah


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## Klue (Dec 14, 2016)

El Necro. 



cctr9 said:


> Does the DB rank those techs as a Kekkei Genkai ? like Amaterasu ? Tsukuyomi ? Susanoo ? Kamui ? Koto ?
> Didn't think so .
> The Sharingan is a bloodline limit , that's a fact , however it's techniques are not , otherwise you'd see all Uchiha sharing the same MS techs .



Then the Databook made a mistake. 




Both listed as Kekkei Genkai. Yeah, even Hyuuga Taijutsu.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 14, 2016)

Klue said:


> Then the Databook made a mistake.


Oh wow...an inconsistency in the DB...who could have possibly saw that coming...


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



^^^Sarcasm


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## Troyse22 (Dec 14, 2016)

That's why I don't rely or even respect the databook


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 14, 2016)

Klue said:


> El Necro.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno what air palm would fall under. Though since it's dependent upon the kekkeigenkei Byakugan, it makes sense it would be called a kekkeigenkei. But I'm definitely surprised to see Tsukuyomi listed as ninjutsu


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## Klue (Dec 14, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I dunno what air palm would fall under. Though since it's dependent upon the kekkeigenkei Byakugan, it makes sense it would be called a kekkeigenkei.



Not sure how that makes sense. Releasing chakra from your palm shouldn't require a Byakugan. 



The All Unknowing said:


> But I'm definitely surprised to see Tsukuyomi listed as ninjutsu



Obvi typo, either in the DB or by the poster.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 14, 2016)

Klue said:


> Not sure how that makes sense. Releasing chakra from your palm shouldn't require a Byakugan.


and yet it does...


> Obvi typo, either in the DB or by the poster.


oh? If that's the case, why did you link it in the first place?


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## Klue (Dec 14, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> and yet it does...



Releasing chakra from chakra points in your palm doesn't require a Byakugan.



The All Unknowing said:


> oh? If that's the case, why did you link it in the first place?



You could easily read the original post I responded to, which claimed the jutsu of Kekkei Genkai aren't labelled as Kekkei Genkai in the Databook.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 14, 2016)

Klue said:


> Releasing chakra from chakra points in your palm doesn't require a Byakugan.


I didn't say it did. I said the specific jutsu called "the air palm" did


> You could easily read the original post I responded to, which claimed the jutsu of Kekkei Genkai aren't labelled as Kekkei Genkai in the Databook.


I did read your original post 

Point is. Only ninjutsu is kekkeigenkei. Genjutsu CAN'T BE kekkeigenkei. So if it's being called "ninjutsu" is an "obvious typo", why post such an irrelevant entry?


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## Klue (Dec 15, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I didn't say it did. I said the specific jutsu called "the air palm" did



Entry says Byakugan is used to target chakra points; the released palm chakra adds range to their hand-to-hand style. The air palm trust itself doesn't require Byakugan.


The All Unknowing said:


> I did read your original post
> 
> Point is. Only ninjutsu is kekkeigenkei. Genjutsu CAN'T BE kekkeigenkei. So if it's being called "ninjutsu" is an "obvious typo", why post such an irrelevant entry?



Because that typo has nothing to do with the fact that the person I responded to hadn't realized how the techniques branching from a Kekkei Genkai are labelled. And an obvious typo doesn't make something irrelevant.

People make mistakes.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 15, 2016)

This has not been locked yet?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2016)

professor83 said:


> This has not been locked yet?



Why should it?

I presented a fair argument.


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 15, 2016)

EMS Sasuke is a good tier above Kisame, Kisame stands no chance whatsoever. EMS Sasuke low diffs him with Amaterasu and Enton casually. Literally everyone except for Kisame's number one fan can see that, why isn't this locked yet?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> EMS Sasuke is a good tier above Kisame, Kisame stands no chance whatsoever. EMS Sasuke low diffs him with Amaterasu and Enton casually. Literally everyone except for Kisame's number one fan can see that, why isn't this locked yet?



I provided a fair argument. There's no reason to lock this.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 15, 2016)

Klue said:


> Entry says Byakugan is used to target chakra points; the released palm chakra adds range to their hand-to-hand style. The air palm trust itself doesn't require Byakugan.



I'm not saying that shooting air from your hand requires the byakugan, I'm saying that the specific technique, the air palm, does require the byakugan



> Because that typo has nothing to do with the fact that the person I responded to hadn't realized how the techniques branching from a Kekkei Genkai are labelled. And an obvious typo doesn't make something irrelevant.
> 
> People make mistakes.


you're correct. The typo wouldn't. But the fact that it isn't ninjutsu at all would. Well, should. Ironically, I'm of the same belief that ninjutsu coming from the kekkeigenkei dojutsu would also be kekkeigenkei. Though Amaterasu confused the shit outta me. It shows both that it's kekkeigenkei AND that it's only Katon. After looking at more, it would appear that  ALL techniques from a dojutsu kekkeigenkai are kekkeigenkai AND whatever normal classification they fall under which I found odd. Like kotoamatsukami shows as being both kekkeigenkai AND genjutsu. Which I found odd that they explain it as being 2 elements


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 15, 2016)

professor83 said:


> This has not been locked yet?


 

now you can lock it

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4 | Winner 1


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I dunno what air palm would fall under. Though since it's dependent upon the kekkeigenkei Byakugan, it makes sense it would be called a kekkeigenkei. But I'm definitely surprised to see Tsukuyomi listed as ninjutsu



 It's a Hiden technique.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It's a Hiden technique.


yeah, I've checked it out since I posted that. Apparently it falls under both, kekkeigenkei and Hidden Technique (I dunno why they spell it with one "D" like, and I know you spelled it correctly according to them, but it is just a hidden technique like shadow possession and the rest, right?). I guess any technique based on dojutsu is a kekkeigenkei AND whatever classification it would normally be. Like air palm is KG/hidden, Koto is KG/Genjutsu, Amaterasu is KG?Katon. Which I guess makes sense. I was initially under the impression that KG was only 2 mixed elements of ninjuts, like how kekkei touta is 3 mixed styles. But it seems with KG dojutsu, their techniques are also all KG + whatever classification they fall under


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> EMS Sasuke is a good tier above Kisame, Kisame stands no chance whatsoever



I'm not sure if you read my argument though. And no, EMS Sasuke is roughly mid kage (still below Hashirama, Naruto, BSM Minato, Kisame etc) EMS Sasuke is probably roughly at the very bottom of high kage, the very top of mid kage range.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> EMS Sasuke is roughly mid kage


And kisame is at best high end low kage to entry level mid kage, meaning @Isaiah13000 is right, EMS sasuke is roughly a tier above kisame, as hes high end mid kage to entry level high kage.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And kisame is at best high end low kage to entry level mid kage, meaning @Isaiah13000 is right, EMS sasuke is roughly a tier above kisame, as hes high end mid kage to entry level high kage.



feats beg to differ


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> feats beg to differ

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 15, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I'm not sure if you read my argument though. And no, EMS Sasuke is roughly mid kage (still below Hashirama, Naruto, BSM Minato, Kisame etc) EMS Sasuke is probably roughly at the very bottom of high kage, the very top of mid kage range.


 No, EMS Sasuke is within the same tier as Hashirama, Madara, Minato, Tobirama, Naruto, and Killer B during the War Arc. They're all high Kage levels imho, and are the strongest you can get before transcending into God tier. Kisame, if anything is either one of the weaker mid Kage levels or stronger low Kage levels. Regardless, I have read your argument and it's horrendous. There is so many flaws in it that I cannot be bothered to waste my time addressing it. Considering you will either ignore it or be unable to comprehend what I'm saying anyway due to your blind fanboyism.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 15, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> feats beg to differ


??? No they don't. Kisame doesn't have the feats Sasuke does. Regular MS Sasuke killed Danzo, the sitting Hokage, who used 15 Izanagi. Kisame defeated (well, pretty much) a Bee fighting half-assedly.  MS Sasuke defeated Bee, cheating on his end by receiving help


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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke is like a tier above Kisame.
Post Juubito EMS Sasuke is three tiers above Kisame at a minimum.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2016)

So thankful this isn't NarutoBase where people get high off of Kisame.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke is like a tier above Kisame.
> *Post Juubito EMS Sasuke is three tiers above Kisame at a minimum.*



That would be a tier over god tier.

According to you, EMS Sasuke is above god tier


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> That would be a tier over god tier.
> 
> According to you, EMS Sasuke is above god tier


Could be wrong, but im pretty sure that was just him using hyperbole anyway.

Kisame is a shoo in for kage tier, its impossible to be legit 3 tiers higher than him unless ur rikudo.

Well unless you use a wonky tier list format list i guess...


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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Could be wrong, but im pretty sure that was just him using hyperbole anyway.
> 
> Kisame is a shoo in for kage tier, its impossible to be legit 3 tiers higher than him unless ur rikudo.
> 
> Well unless you use a wonky tier list format list i guess...





Troyse22 said:


> That would be a tier over god tier.
> 
> According to you, EMS Sasuke is above god tier




God tier
transcendent tier
top tier
legendary tier
high kage
mid kage
low kage

That's my format, it's in my sig too so you can reference who I have in each tier.
Kisame is Mid Kage. Post Juubito EMS Sasuke, post Juubito, with PS is high legendary tier. SO about 3 tiers above him.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> God tier
> transcendent tier
> top tier
> legendary tier
> ...


I like ur format. Me? Dont have a tier list, but if i did id do something like this...


*Rikudo Tier* (Rinnegan Sasuke)
*Top Tier *(Juubito EMS Sasuke)
*High-Kage* (Kabuto EMS Sasuke)
*Mid-Kage* (Kisame if we are extremely generous,)
*Low-Kage* (Kisame legit)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I like ur format. Me? Dont have a tier list, but if i did id do something like this...
> 
> 
> *Rikudo Tier* (Rinnegan Sasuke)
> ...


Top Tier's power scalings would be all around the place, as we'd have people like DRSM Madara in the same tier with BM Naruto, that' why I split up Top Tier for my list.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Top Tier's power scalings would be all around the place, as we'd have people like DRSM Madara in the same tier with BM Naruto, that' why I split up Top Tier for my list.


Yeah, that makes sense, maybe if i ever made a Tier list id do the same lol.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah, that makes sense, maybe if i ever made a Tier list id do the same lol.



You could make a thread about it, see if people agree with your rankings.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> You could make a thread about it, see if people agree with your rankings.


Id probs get a friend IRL, who is also a fan, to beta read it for me if i ever made a tier list before i "published" it.

Otherwise, i can almost guarantee id make a stupid mistake or two.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Id probs get a friend IRL, who is also a fan, to beta read it for me if i ever made a tier list before i "published" it.
> 
> Otherwise, i can almost guarantee id make a stupid mistake or two.


Yeah, especially since there are bound to be inconsistencies seeing as how bad matchups exist in the Narutoverse.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Yeah, especially since there are bound to be inconsistencies seeing as how bad matchups exist in the Narutoverse.


Exactly, for example, just eye balling it right now, i think id have Pain arc SM Naruto above deidara by a decent margin, yet i believe deidara would beat him in a fight due to a terrible matchup, as naruto has no range game.

Just one weird thing off the top of my head.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Exactly, for example, just eye balling it right now, i think id have Pain arc SM Naruto above deidara by a decent margin, yet i believe deidara would beat him in a fight due to a terrible matchup, as naruto has no range game.
> 
> Just one weird thing off the top of my head.




FRS? That might get dodged on his bird though.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> FRS? That might get dodged on his bird though.


My thoughts exactly, he also only has a few shots with it per SM and cant spam it without KB prep.

But this is off topic, sooo, yeah.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

SM Naruto would shit on Deidara. His flight is nothing against Food cart destroyer + SM strength to throw himself in the air and smash him with a rasengan. Obviously with a kagebunshin distraction beforehand, as per usual.

You guys lack imagination and creativity.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> SM strength to throw himself in the air and smash him with a rasengan


SM =/= pseudo flight capable jumps dude, dont know whos ass you pulled that out of.

As for FCD, deidara was capable of dodging gaaras sand constructs that were comparable in size to the gamatrio and they were in greater number and were seeking, and were essentially flight capable, dont see a FCD catching him with this in mind.



Sapherosth said:


> Obviously with a kagebunshin distraction beforehand, as per usual.


How is he gonna manage a KB feint on a guy who has a birds eye view of the entire battlefield? Curious how that works in your mind.

The fight would go down like this imo, if naruto can catch deidara before the man goes airborne, naruto wins, otherwise, naruto loses.

Doesnt mean deidara>SM naruto cuz thatd be..lol...

All it means is its a bad matchup for naruto.



Sapherosth said:


> You guys lack imagination and creativity.


Imagination doesnt mean we award naruto ridiculous feats and abilities he has never done before, like pseudo flight via SM strength for instance...


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 16, 2016)

when Naruto and Fukasaku were sparring, they fought a lot in the air. I'm pretty confident that Naruto could get Deidara from the range he usually flies. Similar to how he was able to take him out of the sky in the Kazekage Rescue Arc


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