# EMS Madara vs alive prime Itachi (read OP).



## StarWanderer (Aug 5, 2015)

EMS Madara vs alive prime Itachi.
Battlefield: Shinobi Alliance vs Juubi.
Restrictions: no for Itachi, EMS Madara can use *only* his taijutsu.
Starting distance: 50 meters.
State of mind: not in character for both, they want to kill each other.

Before some of admins can lock this thread, i'll explain why do i think EMS Madara can beat Itachi even without using his techniques, with pure speed, stamina and taijutsu prowess.

As we know, Edo Tensei affects physical stats, such as speed, strength etc. Hashirama and Tobirama from Part 1 were nothing compare to their counterparts from War Arc, where they were ressurrected close, or almost with their full power (that line was translated differently in some manga resources). In Part 1, old Hiruzen could compete with them, although even Orochimaru could react to his blow. In War Arc, Edo Hashirama could compete with Edo Madara and Tobirama could mark a Juubi Jin, reacting to his movement speed and striking speed - something even KCM Minato in close distance couldnt do. Plus, Edo Tobirama's clone reacted to an already exploding Gudoudama.

Edo Madara was amped by Kabuto to the point Kabuto thought he was beyond his prime. Well, that was because he modified his Hashirama cells in order for him to use Hashirama's mokuton with such a scale as we see during his fight with Gokage. Kabuto thought Edo Madara was a Madara + Hashirama combination. But he has never, ever modified Madara's speed, or precognition, because Edo Hashirama, ressurrected without his full power, could compete with Edo Madara in close combat and Shunshin speed, even dodging his attacks. As i've shown that up there.

Now, lets talk about Madara's feats. Edo Madara, slower than alive Madara, countered *even* Raikage Ei's V2 speed. A speed of someone who could dodge Amaterasu without effort. Furthermore, he could track even lightened Ei, because he was looking at the direction from which Aggravated Rock Technique appeared.



Later, Edo Madara outran Onoki's Jinton with his Shunshin. And with such a precise he purposefully let it dismantle a part of his armor. 



Later, he just outran it. Got partly dismanteled, but still very impressive, since the Jinton's range was very large and it became such *very fast*, seemingly.



And here he turned around, put his hand in front of Jinton's direction and activated Preta Path before it reached him.



All of that is very impressive, but that was Edo Madara, who is slower than alive EMS Madara.

Blind EMS Madara did this to SM Naruto.



Alive EMS Madara possesses very fast Shunshin, ayes which, slightly amped by Juugo's Senjutsu, can track Juubi Jin's movements (the scans will be below), very fast physical speed. He is fast enough to dodge Itachi's Amaterasu, Totsuka, Yasaka Magatama and any other offencive. Tsukuyomi is a non-factor, due to Madara's EMS, other genjutsu are non-factor too. And there is no proof Kotoamatsukami can work on EMS (as far as i know). Izanami requires a close distance and preparation time. And we know what happenes if Itachi goes in a close distance with him. Complete total domination of Madara.



And by the way, Madara, without Rinnegan, absorbed Amaterasu.



Itachi is not fast enough to compete with him, Itachi's offencive is useless against Madara's speed and precognition, Itachi's stamina isnt good enough to fight with EMS Madara for a long time, he cant keep up his Susanoo for long due to having MS.

So basicly, EMS Madara avoids anything Itachi has and when he is out of chakra, beats him to death. With pure speed and taijutsu prowess. 


But that is just my opinion. I am sure most of you have a different one. 

Who do you think would win and why?


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 5, 2015)

Itachi already solo'd Edo Rin'negan Madara, he'd mop the floor with EMS Madara. 





Ryuzaki said:


> And thus, Itachi solo'd Madara and saved the Kages.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2015)

Living Madara is very fast, having casually zoomed past Sage Naruto, but keep something in mind here:

We only saw living Itachi when severely handicapped and/or holding back. Yet he had some plot-breaking bursts of speed, like _clone feinting Hebi Sasuke without a solid sight-blocker_.

I'd also say that Edo Itachi against Kabuto (faster than EMS Sasuke) seemed at least as fast/agile as Edo Madara against the Gokage. Edo Itachi shocked Sage Kabuto and EMS Sasuke repeatedly with feints.

Prime Itachi will be 5*+* easily. Further support for this is that in DB3, while sick, Itachi still retained a 5 in speed, and was faster than Sasuke's strong 4.5, and much faster than Deidara's weak 4.5. 

Madara has some huge base advantages over Itachi such as his comparatively enormous ninjutsu power, stamina, and strength while Itachi has a small edge in intelligence, speed, and genjutsu. ​


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 5, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> @Ryuzaki
> Gai > Itachi > EMS Madara
> 
> Yes he did
> ...



Sad part is in 8th Gate, that is basically what would happen in the Akatsuki base


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## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2015)

So basically this match is Itachi with no restrictions versus Madara restricted to using nothing but Taijutsu.

Or, more generally, two guys with roughly interchangeable physical stats fighting each other, except one can use the Mangekyou Sharingan and other Jutsu, and the other guy can't use jack shit except his bare hands.

Yeah, Itachi wraps this up in seconds.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

> Edo Itachi shocked Sage Kabuto and EMS Sasuke repeatedly with feints.



Not realy. He saved Sasuke from Kabuto when Sasuke was affected by Kabuto's Hakugeki jutsu. That proves nothing, Edo Itachi could withstand that sound better, to the point he could create Susanoo, while Sasuke couldnt. He was an Edo Tensei after all. The second time Itachi didnt give Sasuke an opportunity to use Susanoo by using it on him himself.

Anyway, Madara's feats are a lot better. SM Kabuto isnt as fast as V2 Ei, who's punch Edo Madara blocked while dodging Mei's Lava Release. And Edo Madara could physically move faster than Onoki's Jinton on several occasions. Alive Madara blitzed someone, who was capable of counter-attacking a shinobi who dodged 2 attacks from KCM Naruto before that.

*Madara is, simply put, a lot  faster.* His Shunshin and physical speed allows him to dodge Amaterasu (which he can absorb anyway) and Totsuka blade. Itachi's Genjutsu is completely inneffective, unless someone can prove Kotoamatsukami can affect Madara's Eternal Mangekyou. Izanami is a non-factor, since it requires a close distance and preparation time, which Itachi wont have due to Madara's huge speed advantage. And Itachi's stamina doesnt allow him to use his techniques, including Susanoo, for long.

Madara evades all of his attacks, exhausting him and when Itachi is out of chakra, beats him with taijutsu.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

You are free to write "Itachi stomps", but it would have been awesome if you explained how. How can he stomp? How can he hit Madara with his offencive? How good will be his MS genjutsu and Kotoamatsukami against the EMS?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2015)

No one is going to give you an explanation on how Itachi rapestomps this, because you are the only delusional tard here who thinks Madara stands a chance in hell.

If you restricted Itachi to taijutsu, then this would be worth debating.


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## Garcher (Aug 6, 2015)

black zetsu called Itachi invincible (even though he knew about Madara, Hahsi, Kaguya, and so on)

how can Madara beat someone with superior intelligence and possessing the strongest offensive and defensive?

itachi easily wins this

even though I like Madara also a lot, against Itachi he is simply outmatched


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No one is going to give you an explanation on how Itachi rapestomps this, because you are the only delusional tard here who thinks Madara stands a chance in hell.
> 
> If you restricted Itachi to taijutsu, then this would be worth debating.



I explained why Itachi has no chance against EMS Madara even if Madara is restricted to taijutsu, with arguements, scans. You just wrote he "rapestomps". Nice way of debating. 



> black zetsu called Itachi invincible (even though he knew about Madara, Hahsi, Kaguya, and so on)
> 
> how can Madara beat someone with superior intelligence and possessing the strongest offensive and defensive?
> 
> ...



Many characters in manga made such statements. It proves nothing, realy. 

And i highly doubt Itachi is more intelligent than Madara. 

Anyway, Madara is a lot faster than Itachi, to the point when he can dodge his offence. And Itachi's genjutsu + Kotoamatsukami are most likely useless against EMS.

With his speed, he can dodge his offence, wait until Itachi has no chakra left and then beat him with taijutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I explained why Itachi has no chance against EMS Madara even if Madara is restricted to taijutsu, with arguements, scans. You just wrote he "rapestomps". Nice way of debating.



You didn't explain anything. You threw out some arbitrary statements and unsubstnatial feats from scans that have nothing to do with subject at hand and arrived to the conclusion that Madara somewhat wins.

Fyi, those are common traits of delusional people.


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> So basically this match is Itachi with no restrictions versus Madara restricted to using nothing but Taijutsu.
> .



>>>



Ryuzaki said:


> Totsuka GG.



ignore what I said. OP is in my ignore list, I don't know what he said in the first post
so I just said Madara stomps itachi based on the title alone.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 6, 2015)

Unless Madara is fast enough to kill Itachi before he activates Susanoo or Amaterasu - which I find highly unlikely, given Itachi's evasive ability and skill with clone feints - then I don't see him winning here. Being restricted to only taijutsu is a death sentence against someone with a 'perfect defense', unless your name is Gai.


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## Ghost (Aug 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I explained why Itachi has no chance against EMS Madara even if Madara is restricted to taijutsu, with arguements, scans. You just wrote he "rapestomps". Nice way of debating.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Unless Madara is fast enough to kill Itachi before he activates Susanoo or Amaterasu - which I find highly unlikely, given Itachi's evasive ability and skill with clone feints - then I don't see him winning here. Being restricted to only taijutsu is a death sentence against someone with a 'perfect defense', unless your name is Gai.



Itachi cant use his Susanoo for a long time. His stamina is his main weakness. 

How can Madara exploit that weakness? By simply evading everything Itachi has and killing him after he is out of chakra.

Edo Madara blocked V2 Ei's punch and moved faster than Onoki's Jinton. Alive Madara, who is faster, outclassed SM Naruto, who was capable of counter-attacking Third Raikage in one try, when 2 of KCM Naruto's attacks were dodged by The Third.

He is fast enough to evade everything Itachi has, including Totsuka blade and Amaterasu. He was even capable of absorbing Amaterasu without the Rinnegan. Tsukuyomi is ineffective against his EMS, his other genjutsu are ineffective too. Kotoamatsukami? Well, i have my doubts about it being effective against an EMS user of Madara's caliber.

Izanami? It requires close distance and preparation time. Itachi wont have it because of Madara's speed superiority. Itachi could compete with KCM Naruto, who couldnt use his super-fast Shunshin at that moment because of active shadow clones. And we remember how KCM Naruto was taking a beating from V1 Ei until that moment of him dodging his V2 punch, thanks to his super-shunshin.

And SM Kabuto isnt on V2 Ei's, or Madara's speed level. Hebi Sasuke, well, he is not even close.

So my opinion is - EMS Madara evades everything Itachi has until the point when Itachi is exhausted. When Itachi gets exhausted, he gets killed.

But that's just my opinion.


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## Bonly (Aug 6, 2015)

when being restricted to Taijutsu only Madara likely gets hit by Ama sooner or later or he joins Nagato.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

Bonly said:


> when being restricted to Taijutsu only Madara likely gets hit by Ama sooner or later or he joins Nagato.



Madara reacted to V2 Ei and blocked his punch while being busy of dodging Mei's Lava Release, moved faster than Onoki's Jinton multiple times and, alive, outclassed SM Naruto without effort. I dont see him being tagged by Amaterasu and, especially, Totsuka blade, which is realy easy for Madara to dodge.

And by the way.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 6, 2015)

Living Madara >>>> Edo Madara clones


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Living Madara >>>> Edo Madara clones



But this thread is not about Edo Madara's clones. It is about living EMS Madara. And the one who absorbed Amaterasu without Rinnegan was not a clone.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 6, 2015)

Yeah but that version had Hashirama's cells, did he not? He's probably using Preta Path the same way he was able to use Susano without eyes.

EMS Madara can't absorb chakra IMO, whether or not he can avoid Amaterasu is a debate that should be had though, especially if we consider the weaker  (I should say slower) version of Madara (Edo) was reacting to V2 Ei without knowledge he could use lightning flicker. 

His shunshin was also equal to Hashirama's, and that guy was avoiding PS Kyuubi (that was actively chasing him) & Kyōsō Enbu.

The problem is his low-end feats are that of being reacted to by Tobirama (whilst in SM), tail smashed into the ground by BM Naruto (whilst in SM/V3 Susano) and his shunshin was reacted to by Gaara's futon sand bullet technique (granted it was a far distance).

I can't really say whether he can avoid it, I mean, Sick Itachi was shown streaming that shit like a high-speed flamethrower [1] [2] [3] [4], Healthy Itachi should stream it even longer than that with even less drawbacks.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yeah but that version had Hashirama's cells, did he not? He's probably using Preta Path the same way he was able to use Susano without eyes.



Itachi could use his Susanoo while his ayes had white pupils, as if he was blind. He could come to Sasuke and touch his head though. But he could knew where Sasuke was, due to him throwing explosive tags at him from one direction. The noise Sasuke made. 

Also dont remember Preta Path being used in that way. Nagato absorbed Killer Bee's chakra, but havent used his Jinchuuriki form. I dont remember anybody absorbing some sort of chakra with Preta and using it in the same way as the Preta Path's victim used. 

And the absorbtion, it looked very, very different from usual Preta Path's absorbtion. 

The Susanoo could be used because, well, EMS chakra was in his brain. The brain produces that kind of chakra which activates Sharingan, or evolves it, as i know.

And Hashirama's cells dont give absorbtion abilities, am i right?


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

> The problem is his low-end feats are that of being reacted to by Tobirama (whilst in SM), smashed blitzed the ground by BM Naruto (whilst in SM) and his shunshin was reacted to by Gaara's futon sand bullet technique (granted it was a far distance).



Tobirama is a speedster himself. He marked Juubi Jin and his clone reacted to an exploding Gudoudama. Tobirama is very, very fast. One of the fastest characters in manga, if we judge his speed level using his performances.

He fought recklessly after gaining Hashirama's SM. Plus, he was in his Susanoo, which wasnt mobile enough to dodge Naruto's attack.

As for Gaara, Madara was in the air. Free fall.

The Raikage-Edo Madara block is a different situation. He very well could jump, retaining his speed up to that moment. Ei is physically strong. And his behavior after Madara blocked his punch. That also hints what kind of speed Madara could counter.



> I can't really say whether he can avoid it, I mean, Sick Itachi was shown streaming that shit like a high-speed flamethrower [1] [2] [3] [4], Healthy Itachi should stream it even longer than that with even less drawbacks.



Madara will run like some sort of Forrest Gump across the battlefield. 

Run, Madara, run!


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> But this thread is not about Edo Madara's clones. It is about living EMS Madara. And the one who absorbed Amaterasu without Rinnegan was not a clone.


Oh, you used the alive moniker for Itachi so I assumed the opposite for Madara. 

Also, Madara had already awakened the Rin'engan at that point, so it make sense why eh'd be able to use the jutsu.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Oh, you used the alive moniker for Itachi so I assumed the opposite for Madara.
> 
> Also, Madara had already awakened the Rin'engan at that point, so it make sense why eh'd be able to use the jutsu.



I'd say it is irrelevant if he can, or cannot absorb it, although even the look of that absorbtion was very different from Preta Path. Alive EMS Madara is fast enough to avoid it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2015)

Edo Madara had to switch to EMS to use Susano'o. He had to switch to Rinnegan to use absorbtion.

When he was Rinne Tensei'd he was able to use Susano'o without eyes, he probably used absorbtion in the same manner.
In that sense, he isn't EMS Madara but Rinnegan Madara. 
You have to edit the OP.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Edo Madara had to switch to EMS to use Susano'o. He had to switch to Rinnegan to use absorbtion.
> 
> When he was Rinne Tensei'd he was able to use Susano'o without eyes, he probably used absorbtion in the same manner.
> In that sense, he isn't EMS Madara but Rinnegan Madara.
> You have to edit the OP.



Had to switch?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Had to switch?



Yes. [4]

[4]

You gotta edit the OP, make it Alive *Rinnegan* Madara.

Its also funny how this horsehit of a thread started out with you claiming that Madara would kill Itachi with speed and taijutsu alone, and now Rinnegan powers came into play.
Next thing is probably Mokuton. I am calling it.


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2015)

Madara is using PS with Rinnegan. Wtf? I can't believe i missed that. I always thought he switched .


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 6, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Madara is using PS with Rinnegan. Wtf? I can't believe i missed that. I always thought he switched .



I don't think you can deactivate the Rin'negan once you activate it


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## StarWanderer (Aug 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes. [4]
> 
> [4]
> 
> ...



He could activate it in order to lower Fourth Division's determination, just like he has shown Hashirama's face to Gokage. Or maybe, Edo Madara truly needs to switch to Rinnegan in order to use it's abilities. It doesnt prove that kind of absorbtion he used after being RT'd was Rinnegan's Preta Path though.

Anyway, it is irrelevant if he can, or cant absorb Amaterasu - if he wants, he can avoid it with no problem. He is fast enough.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He could activate it in order to lower Fourth Division's determination, just like he has shown Hashirama's face to Gokage. Or maybe, Edo Madara truly needs to switch to Rinnegan in order to use it's abilities. It doesnt prove that kind of absorbtion he used after being RT'd was Rinnegan's Preta Path though.
> [


As far as we know he doesn't have a different absorbtion ability. 



> Anyway, it is irrelevant if he can, or cant absorb Amaterasu -



Why bring it if it was irrelevant ? 



> if he wants, he can avoid it with no problem. He is fast enough.


I have no idea where you can get fanfiction of this level from.  Seriously, just check out the fanfiction section and this level of absurdity isn't even in there.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 7, 2015)

> As far as we know he doesn't have a different absorbtion ability.



As far as we know, he could absorb chakra without ayes. And, unlike Preta Path users, he could use that chakra in the same way as the one from whom he took it.



> Why bring it if it was irrelevant ?



To show that EMS Madara can beat Itachi even easier, when he doesnt need to dodge Amaterasu.



> I have no idea where you can get fanfiction of this level from. Seriously, just check out the fanfiction section and this level of absurdity isn't even in there.



Edo Madara, slower than alive one, blocked V2 Ei's punch, tracked his movement even when he was lightened, moved faster than Onoki's Jinton on several occasions. Alive, he effortlessly outclassed SM Naruto.Those are his feats from manga, not a funfiction. 

You have no idea? You bring here Amaterasu feats to prove that kind of technique is fast enough to hit EMS Madara if you have no idea. But for now, the only thing you can do is rep-negging me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 7, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> As far as we know, he could absorb chakra without ayes. And, unlike Preta Path users, he could use that chakra in the same way as the one from whom he took it.


He used Susano'o without eyes too. I guess it wasn't Susano'o, but something that looked like Susano'o.



> To show that EMS Madara can beat Itachi even easier, when he doesnt need to dodge Amaterasu.


Or you just realized how dumb your statement was and tried to save face. Not gonna work though.



> Edo Madara, slower than alive one, blocked V2 Ei's punch, tracked his movement even when he was lightened, moved faster than Onoki's Jinton on several occasions. Alive, he effortlessly outclassed SM Naruto.Those are his feats from manga, not a funfiction.


None of those things happened. 
And the funny thing is, even if they had happened, that still wouldn't prove that he would be able to dodge Amaterasu.



> You have no idea? You bring here Amaterasu feats to prove that kind of technique is fast enough to hit EMS Madara if you have no idea. But for now, the only thing you can do is rep-negging me.



Once you can prove that Madara has V2 level reactions and movement speed, then we can have a debate.
So you should either find scans of Madara reacting to something as fast as Amaterasu, or something faster. And also you should also find scans of him moving faster than EMS Sasuke can track(who is more or less as fast as Itachi). 

Until then, I am not going to reply to your fanfiction as this is not the right section for it.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 7, 2015)

> He used Susano'o without eyes too. I guess it wasn't Susano'o, but something that looked like Susano'o.



I dont remember anyone with Preta Path using absorbed chakra in the same way RT Madara used it. And we realy dont know how in the world he could absorb chakra. But lets assume he *cant* absorb it in this debate.



> Or you just realized how dumb your statement was and tried to save face. Not gonna work though.



There is nothing dumb about my statement. And i have written already that it is irrelevant if he can, or cant absorb Amaterasu.



> None of those things happened.
> And the funny thing is, even if they had happened, that still wouldn't prove that he would be able to dodge Amaterasu.



The truth is - he can dodge it. His physical speed allowed him to block V2 Ei's punch while dodging Mei's Lava Release. And that happened. His physical speed allowed him to turn around, put his hand in front of Jinton's beam direction and use Preta Path before it reached him. That happened too. His Shunshin allowed him to outpace Onoki's Jinton and outclass SM Naruto.



> Once you can prove that Madara has V2 level reactions and movement speed, then we can have a debate.
> So you should either find scans of Madara reacting to something as fast as Amaterasu, or something faster. And also you should also find scans of him moving faster than EMS Sasuke can track(who is more or less as fast as Itachi).
> 
> Until then, I am not going to reply to your fanfiction as this is not the right section for it.



I have done that already. In this thread. You, on the other hand, didnt even bother bringing here Amaterasu feats. 

But whatever, you are the one who thought Ei's statement of him being the fastest proves anything, after all. You are the one who thought Juubidara wasnt surprised about Gai's speed and used Kakashi-Sasuke's "fight" as an example. 

So i dont think i should take you seriously. 

But just saying - Hachibi blocked Amaterasu with his tail. Such a "fast" technique, i must say.



As for Itachi being more or less as fast as EMS Sasuke - i want you to prove that. Reaction speed feats dont count. Movement speed feats do.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 7, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> The truth is - he can dodge it. His physical speed allowed him to block V2 Ei's punch while dodging Mei's Lava Release.



It was V1 A, his hair and his aura doesn't indicate V2.

Also blocking V2 A's punch wouldn't make Madara faster than A.
Juugo blocked V1 A's punch, does it make him as fast as A ? Deidara dodged Sasuke despite expressing that he was too fast for him, etc.
Thats fallacious logic. 



> And that happened. His physical speed allowed him to turn around, put his hand in front of Jinton's beam direction and use Preta Path before it reached him.


Jinton isn't as fast as Amaterasu. 



> That happened too. His Shunshin allowed him to outpace Onoki's Jinton and outclass SM Naruto.


He never "outlcassed" SM Naruto. He took the jump on Naruto when he wasn't expecting it. He did the same thing to Sai along with Naruto.
What are you suggesting ? That there is no difference between Sai and Naruto in terms of physical capabilities or it just wasn't Naruto's best ?




> I have done that already. In this thread. You, on the other hand, didnt even bother bringing here Amaterasu feats.


Like I initially said, you threw out arbitrary statements, misinterpreted feats and through huge leaps of logic you came to the conclusion that Madara is as fast as V2 A. 
I repeat, there is absolutely no evidence that Madara is as fast as V2 A. Not only that, there is absolutely no evidence that he is in the same ballpark.




> But whatever, you are the one who thought Ei's statement of him being the fastest proves anything, after all. You are the one who thought Juubidara wasnt surprised about Gai's speed and used Kakashi-Sasuke's "fight" as an example.
> 
> So i dont think i should take you seriously.


The thing is, no one in this thread takes you seriously. So who cares if you don't take me seriously or not ?



> But just saying - Hachibi blocked Amaterasu with his tail. Such a "fast" technique, i must say.


Hachibee is irrelevant here. We are talking about Madara.

How about Lee kicking Madara in half before Madara could react ? 
Lee and FRS traveled @ the same speed(more or less considering they both arrived their destined target @ the same time). That shows Madara can't even react to FRS from a long distance, how is he going to react to Amaterasu  ?

See, I can use low end feats too.



> As for Itachi being more or less as fast as EMS Sasuke - i want you to prove that. Reaction speed feats dont count. Movement speed feats do.


Reaction speed is a part of speed. You don't have the liberty of defining what is speed and what isn't.
With that said, here : 1
1
Kabuto repeatedly out doing Sasuke in reaction and jutsu execution speed department, but Itachi completely dominates him : Link removed
to the extend that he hits Kabuto before Kabuto could even begin to cast his jutsu, placing Itachi above EMS Sasuke in terms of reaction speed and jutsu execution speed.

EMS Sasuke landed a hit on SM Madara. How is base Madara killing Itachi with Taijutsu and speed ? I'll go ahead and say that Madara has 0 distinctive feats that put him above Itachi in terms of speed or taijutsu.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2015)

Itachi neg diffs 
He simply need wait for madara to attack him
He activates susanoo and splits madara in half 

Madara cannot be trying to tjrow a punch and avoid susanoo at the same time


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2015)

Love the logic that puts jugo on V1 A speed level


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## StarWanderer (Aug 7, 2015)

> It was V1 A, his hair and his aura doesn't indicate V2.



It seems you dont know that even if Ei is in V2, his hair moves with him while he uses Shunshin.



And it seems you dont care about this.





> Also blocking V2 A's punch wouldn't make Madara faster than A.
> Juugo blocked V1 A's punch, does it make him as fast as A ? Deidara dodged Sasuke despite expressing that he was too fast for him, etc.
> Thats fallacious logic.



Amaterasu, although miving with it's full speed, almost freezed for Ei. And while it was staying still, he made a 1 meter distance. I will give you an example. Imagine Neo dodging a bullet. It moves with it's full speed, yet for Neo, it moves realy, realy slow. To the point that it almost freezes being few millimeters from him. Nevertheless, while bullet is moving very, very slow in the air, he makes a 1 meter distance from it. In other words, he moves faster than that bullet. The same thing happened here.



V2 Ei moves faster than Amaterasu, yet his *faster* V2 speed was countered by Edo Madara, who is slower than alive one. And realy, there were lots of discussion about that. Edo Madara blocked V2 Ei's punch.

Now imagine how easy it would be for alive EMS Madara to dodge Itachi's Amaterasu. Your examples have nothing to do with this debate.



> He never "outlcassed" SM Naruto. He took the jump on Naruto when he wasn't expecting it. He did the same thing to Sai along with Naruto.
> What are you suggesting ? That there is no difference between Sai and Naruto in terms of physical capabilities or it just wasn't Naruto's best ?



Wasnt expecting it? SM Naruto is a *sensor*. And he saw Madara the whole time. 

Although Sai is a lot slower than SM Naruto, the fact he was outclassed in the same way proves nothing. They were both too slow for Madara so he sent them both flying.



> Like I initially said, you threw out arbitrary statements, misinterpreted feats and through huge leaps of logic you came to the conclusion that Madara is as fast as V2 A.
> I repeat, there is absolutely no evidence that Madara is as fast as V2 A. Not only that, there is absolutely no evidence that he is in the same ballpark.



Which feats have i misinterpreted? 

There is evidence that EMS Madara's physical speed is faster. Shunshin? It also seems to be faster due to his performance against SM Naruto and outpacing Onoki's Jinton, which was so fast Madara's clones, capable of pressuring Ei, couldnt escape from it.



> Hachibee is irrelevant here. We are talking about Madara.
> 
> How about Lee kicking Madara in half before Madara could react ?
> Lee and FRS traveled @ the same speed(more or less considering they both arrived their destined target @ the same time). That shows Madara can't even react to FRS from a long distance, how is he going to react to Amaterasu ?
> ...



How about him controlling The Juubi? How about him reacting to FRS in the manga before that?





> Reaction speed is a part of speed. You don't have the liberty of defining what is speed and what isn't.
> With that said, here : [1]
> [1]
> Kabuto repeatedly out doing Sasuke in reaction and jutsu execution speed department, but Itachi completely dominates him : [1]
> to the extend that he hits Kabuto before Kabuto could even begin to cast his jutsu, placing Itachi above EMS Sasuke in terms of reaction speed and jutsu execution speed.



Reaction speed is the ability of your brain to react to something. Movement speed is the speed of your hands/legs/head etc. 

*And what in the world are you talking about?*  That was when Itachi wasnt even moving, when Kabuto was already in his *endless loop*. All of those things happened in kabuto's mind, in the endless loop Itachi created.





> EMS Sasuke landed a hit on SM Madara. How is base Madara killing Itachi with Taijutsu and speed ? I'll go ahead and say that Madara has 0 distinctive feats that put him above Itachi in terms of speed or taijutsu.



First, although Madara had SM, he didnt have EMS precognition. Second, EMS Sasuke has never, ever landed a hit on him. That thing you are talking about could very well be his hair. And it was. Because he never, ever healed such a wound in such a short period of time. And there was no blood dropping there.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2015)

Lol EMS Sasuke with just Taijutsu did land a hit on SM madara he ran his sword through him to no effect though 

However totsuka 1 shots with _
-2Billion difficulty


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## StarWanderer (Aug 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol EMS Sasuke with just Taijutsu did land a hit on SM madara he ran his sword through him to no effect though
> 
> However totsuka 1 shots with _
> -2Billion difficulty



Because Madara let him do that.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 7, 2015)

> Itachi could use his Susanoo while his ayes had white pupils, as if he was blind. He could come to Sasuke and touch his head though. But he could knew where Sasuke was, due to him throwing explosive tags at him from one direction. The noise Sasuke made.


I'm quite certain he wasn't blind, Itachi was taking notice to trap shuriken weaponry that required vision to analyze, he also exchanged several hundred shuriken with Sasuke- hitting them all directly on point. There's no way a blind man without elite sensory ability (which Itachi did not have) is capable of doing that. 



> Also dont remember Preta Path being used in that way. Nagato absorbed Killer Bee's chakra, but havent used his Jinchuuriki form. I dont remember anybody absorbing some sort of chakra with Preta and using it in the same way as the Preta Path's victim used.


I'm not sure I follow- what are you trying to say here?



> And the absorbtion, it looked very, very different from usual Preta Path's absorbtion.


It looked exactly like how he absorbed Jinton and FRS, the only difference is he didn't put his arm out- because he was already hit with the flames unlike those other attacks. The flames disappeared out of thin air the same way FRS and Jinton did when he utilized Preta Path- there wasn't any clear visible barrier displayed, and he did not speak the words "Preta Path" in any of Madara's Preta Path uses.

I don't see how you think it did not "appear anything like" his Preta Path uses.  



> The Susanoo could be used because, well, EMS chakra was in his brain. The brain produces that kind of chakra which activates Sharingan, or evolves it, as i know.


There's no reason to suggest EMS techniques are viable to use while blind, then Rinnegan attacks aren't. They're both Dojutsu, the only reason we'd assume they're not viable is because the man is blind- that appeared to not be the case for Susano, and so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to use his other Dojutsu techniques. 



> And Hashirama's cells dont give absorbtion abilities, am i right?


Well it's either the cells or Rinnegan, because the blind man absorbed Hashirama's SM Chakras on panel and Amaterasu. 

Unless you have feats of EMS (Non Hashirama-celled/Non-Rinnegan) Madara absorbing chakra, we have no choice but to assume it's one of those things.  



> Tobirama is a speedster himself. He marked Juubi Jin and his clone reacted to an exploding Gudoudama. Tobirama is very, very fast. One of the fastest characters in manga, if we judge his speed level using his performances.


That's great and all, but if Living Madara is fast enough to avoid Amaterasu from Healthy Itachi (which is what you're claiming) it's of my opinion that that same Living Madara should have more easily destroyed Tobirama with the combination of Rinnegan & Sage Mode enhancing his already amazing speed (as you claim).

From what I was seeing it clearly looked like they had around equal reaction speed. If you take away SM & Rinnegan, I don't see how this same Madara is capable of avoiding a shinobi's gaze (Amaterasu) who's reactions/shunshin/ocular perception were on the speed level of SM Kabuto. Itachi is not a scrub speedster, the dude can activate the technique from afar, from less than a meter while Madara is closing in on him, or while he's shunshining at Madara (at SM Kabuto level speeds). At any time a black flame multiple times the size of a human body [1] can instantly be shot out, and he can stream this volume of flame as I've already shown you.

For me personally, it would take someone around the speed level of BM Naruto to react and avoid that technique without prior knowledge Itachi can use it (Madara does not even know about Itachi Amaterasu)- because you can bet he's going to use it at the best possible time (with the enhancement of a feint, after a crow smokescreen, following up after a katon smokescreen or while utilizing his own shunshin speed in-motion close-up). BM Naruto is the guy that moves so fast his speed deflects Bijuudama to lands dozens of miles away. 

Itachi isn't just going to openly spray the technique and give it away, against an opponent like Madara, Itachi is going to set up the perfect opportunity to utilize Amaterasu to ensure it has the highest chance of hitting Madara- and with the enhancement of his own speed (SM Kabuto level) and the number of surprise techniques he's capable of unloading on him (exploding bunshin, randomized susano arm extensions, crow/katon smokescreens) to limit Madara's concentration, movement freedom (makes him leap above for a second or lunge at him- then uses Amaterasu) or even the possibility that the technique is visualized at all (smokescreens- Amaterasu is released from behind/above/the side of him after a katon blows up a smokecloud or the crows shadow his direct vision as they did to EMS Sasuke) I don't see how Itachi fails to create a scenario where Madara gets hit.

-Madara doesn't know who Itachi is
-Madara doesn't know Itachi is extremely fast
-Madara doesn't know Itachi can use Susano
-Madara doesn't know Itachi can use Amaterasu
-Madara doesn't know Itachi can use crows or katons as smokescreens 
-Madara doesn't know Itachi can use exploding bunshins
-Madara doesn't know Itachi is a highly intelligent shinobi (5 intelligence in all databooks)

And your logic is this arrogant guy restricted to only using his bare arms is capable of avoiding Amaterasu with these stipulations?


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## StarWanderer (Aug 7, 2015)

> I'm quite certain he wasn't blind, Itachi was taking notice to trap shuriken weaponry that required vision to analyze, he also exchanged several hundred shuriken with Sasuke- hitting them all directly on point. There's no way a blind man without elite sensory ability (which Itachi did not have) is capable of doing that.



Ok, i agree that he wasnt completely blind. However, he seemingly wasnt maintaining his MS. His pupils were white.



> I'm not sure I follow- what are you trying to say here?



That is irrelevant right now. Lets assume he cant absorb chakra in this battle.



> It looked exactly like how he absorbed Jinton and FRS, the only difference is he didn't put his arm out- because he was already hit with the flames unlike those other attacks. The flames disappeared out of thin air the same way FRS and Jinton did when he utilized Preta Path- there wasn't any clear visible barrier displayed, and he did not speak the words "Preta Path" in any of Madara's Preta Path uses.
> 
> I don't see how you think it did not "appear anything like" his Preta Path uses.



Irrelevant.



> There's no reason to suggest EMS techniques are viable to use while blind, then Rinnegan attacks aren't. They're both Dojutsu, the only reason we'd assume they're not viable is because the man is blind- that appeared to not be the case for Susano, and so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to use his other Dojutsu techniques.



As Edo, he didnt need to switch to EMS during Susanoo usage. And Itachi could use his Susanoo while he wasnt maintaining his MS.

I dont remember canon statements that MS/EMS user can use The Susanoo only if he has his ayes. Plus, i dont think it's something stupid. Brain is the source of MS/EMS chakra. 



> Well it's either the cells or Rinnegan, because the blind man absorbed Hashirama's SM Chakras on panel and Amaterasu.
> 
> Unless you have feats of EMS (Non Hashirama-celled/Non-Rinnegan) Madara absorbing chakra, we have no choice but to assume it's one of those things.



Irrelevant.



> That's great and all, but if Living Madara is fast enough to avoid Amaterasu from Healthy Itachi (which is what you're claiming) it's of my opinion that that same Living Madara should have more easily destroyed Tobirama with the combination of Rinnegan & Sage Mode enhancing his already amazing speed (as you claim).



Rinnegan doesnt boost speed in any way. 

And Tobirama's striking speed is faster than Amaterasu. His feats are more than good enough to say that.



> From what I was seeing it clearly looked like they had around equal reaction speed. If you take away SM & Rinnegan, I don't see how this same Madara is capable of avoiding a shinobi's gaze (Amaterasu) who's reactions/shunshin/ocular perception were on the speed level of SM Kabuto. Itachi is not a scrub speedster, the dude can activate the technique from afar, from less than a meter while Madara is closing in on him, or while he's shunshining at Madara (at SM Kabuto level speeds). At any time a black flame multiple times the size of a human body [1] can instantly be shot out, and he can stream this volume of flame as I've already shown you.



SM Kabuto is slower than V2 Ei, who's punch was blocked by Edo Madara point blank and who can move faster than Amaterasu, to the point it almost "freezes" for him. And Madara has EMS with it's precognition. Furthermore, alive Madara could outclass SM Naruto with his Shunshin and striking speed, who could counter-attack a shinobi, capable of dodging 2 attacks from KCM Naruto, in one try. 



> For me personally, it would take someone around the speed level of BM Naruto to react and avoid that technique without prior knowledge Itachi can use it (Madara does not even know about Itachi Amaterasu)- because you can bet he's going to use it at the best possible time (with the enhancement of a feint, after a crow smokescreen, following up after a katon smokescreen or while utilizing his own shunshin speed in-motion close-up). BM Naruto is the guy that moves so fast his speed deflects Bijuudama to lands dozens of miles away.



EMS precognition and his reaction speed will allow him to dodge it. It doesnt matter if he know, or doesnt know about that technique. He will see it with his EMS, he will react to it. It was blocked by Hachibi's tail, it was dodged by V2 Ei, for whom it was so slow that he easily went away from it when it was at point-blank range.

As for feints, EMS Madara is a lot faster than Itachi.



> Itachi isn't just going to openly spray the technique and give it away, against an opponent like Madara, Itachi is going to set up the perfect opportunity to utilize Amaterasu to ensure it has the highest chance of hitting Madara- and with the enhancement of his own speed (SM Kabuto level) and the number of surprise techniques he's capable of unloading on him (exploding bunshin, randomized susano arm extensions, crow/katon smokescreens) to limit Madara's reaction capacity, movement or even the possibility that the technique is visualized at all (smokescreens) I don't see how Itachi fails to create a scenario where Madara gets hit.



EMS Madara's physical speed and Shunshin speed nullify Itachi's feints, which he should do fast enough in order for them to give any trouble to someone of Madara's speed caliber. But those feints wont be fast enough.



> -Madara doesn't know who Itachi is



Doesnt matter.



> -Madara doesn't know Itachi is extremely fast



Doesnt matter. As soon as Itachi starts moving, he'd recognise his speed level. Plus, Madara has EMS precognition.



> -Madara doesn't know Itachi can use Susano



He will expect it from someone with MS.



> -Madara doesn't know Itachi can use Amaterasu



Doesnt matter. Madara has super-fast reaction speed, movement speed, Shunshin speed and EMS precognition. Amaterasu blitz wont work.



> -Madara doesn't know Itachi can use crows or katons



Crows are non-factor. Madara will avoid them without any problem. Katons are predictable from another Uchiha.



> -Madara doesn't know Itachi can use exploding bunshins



He can outrun bunshin's explosions without any problem, or prevent Itachi from making any bunshin with his speed.



> -Itachi is arguably a tactical genius



Madara is a tactical genious too.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2015)

Lol  
Only thing that has made sense so far is Madara expecting Katon from itachi which really is of no use Anywayz


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## StarWanderer (Aug 8, 2015)

Itachi has nothing on EMS Madara, realy. Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami are ineffective (EMS), another genjutsu are ineffective, Amaterasu can be dodged, Totsuka blade can be dodged, Izanami is a non-factor, Itachi's speed is a non-factor, his stamina is a lot worse. EMS Madara is on a completely different level.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi has nothing on EMS Madara, realy. Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami are ineffective (EMS), another genjutsu are ineffective, Amaterasu can be dodged, Totsuka blade can be dodged, Izanami is a non-factor, Itachi's speed is a non-factor, his stamina is a lot worse. EMS Madara is on a completely different level.


Kotoamatsukami is ineffective against EMS?


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## StarWanderer (Aug 8, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Kotoamatsukami is ineffective against EMS?



Can you prove it will be effective against EMS?


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2015)

Yes it would lol stated in the manga that was itachi tactic on controlling sasuke after sasuke too his eyes 
Koto working on EMS has already been heavily implied not that Kishi version of madara can only be defeated by that 

Lol


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2015)

It's hilarious that madara can out run or avoid amaterasu completely when juubito didn't side step IT casually 
And when God naruto didn't either 

I guess madara is faster than both


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## StarWanderer (Aug 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Yes it would lol stated in the manga that was itachi tactic on controlling sasuke after sasuke too his eyes
> Koto working on EMS has already been heavily implied not that Kishi version of madara can only be defeated by that
> 
> Lol



And Onoki's tactics was to use Jinton against Edo Madara.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2015)

Which was proven wrong 
Something he couldn't have known due to not knowing preta path powers 
Now was koto proven wrong ?


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## StarWanderer (Aug 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Which was proven wrong
> Something he couldn't have known due to not knowing preta path powers
> Now was koto proven wrong ?



Was Koto proven to be good enough to affect EMS?


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2015)

Was implied and not disproven 
No need for kishi to imply it if it was false and he didn't disprove it 

Ps; blind sm madara also Got hit by amaterasu he couldn't out run 
He is a sensor so it's not like he couldn't sense it coming he used preta path 

In any case pointless debating with u everyone else disagrees with u 

But sure madara beats itachi to death with his foot


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## StarWanderer (Aug 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Was implied and not disproven
> No need for kishi to imply it if it was false and he didn't disprove it
> 
> Ps; blind sm madara also Got hit by amaterasu he couldn't out run
> ...



Was assumed and hasnt been proven to be truth. 

The fact Itachi was willing to use it against EMS Sasuke doesnt prove it could affect him.

Blind RT Madara seemingly didnt care about it, due to his comment on that technique, which he absorbed as soon as it reached him.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2015)

Yes it's shit to someone who can absorb it 
Same way Oro will laugh at it 
Doesn't give either the speed to avoid it 

Poor argument nothing new there


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## StarWanderer (Aug 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Yes it's shit to someone who can absorb it
> Same way Oro will laugh at it
> Doesn't give either the speed to avoid it
> 
> Poor argument nothing new there



Madara simply didnt care, he activated the absorbtion technique before it reached him. He didnt try to dodge it.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2015)

Because he doesn't need to 
That madara has absorption this one doesn't

Lol why waste chakra on absorbing it if u can side step it effortlessly 

Comical to think it took A pumping bijuu level chakra to side step it yet madara can so casually 

Entirely hilarious 

Considering naruto who avoided A fastest punch didn't even react to Amaterasu and thought itachi missed it 

But Yh sure


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Can you prove it will be effective against EMS?


Can you prove it wouldn't? Like Gaze said, Itachi planned to use it on Sasuke, while anticipating his acquiring of EMS. Someone like Onoki shouldn't be considered as credible Itachi. Manga has not given us a reason to believe otherwise.


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## Matty (Aug 8, 2015)

Madara gets mindfucked


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## StarWanderer (Aug 8, 2015)

> Because he doesn't need to
> That madara has absorption this one doesn't



I already wrote that. In this thread, Madara *doesnt have absorbtion*.



> Lol why waste chakra on absorbing it if u can side step it effortlessly



I dont even know if i want to comment this one. But nevertheless, i will.

He wasted chakra on *absorbing* another chakra. 

And Madara loves to reduce moral and determination of his opponents. He absorbed it effortlessly and commented on it like it was nothing for him.



> Comical to think it took A pumping bijuu level chakra to side step it yet madara can so casually



Madara has a lot bigger chakra reserves. He can casually use Bijuu level chakra. There is nothing comical about his speed.



> Entirely hilarious



The quastion "why waste chakra on absorbing another powerful chakra when you can side step it" was entirely hilarious.



> Considering naruto who avoided A fastest punch didn't even react to Amaterasu and thought itachi missed it



Naruto's clones were active during that moment. He never, ever used his super-Shunshin, which allowed him to outpace V2 Ei, in his fight with Nagato and Itachi. Because of active clones. If KCM Naruto had his super-Shunshin, he would see it and side-step it even easier than Ei, who moved a lot faster than Amaterasu. He side-stepped it while it was at point-blank range, moving with it's full speed.



> But Yh sure



Oh yeah, sure. 



> Can you prove it wouldn't? Like Gaze said, Itachi planned to use it on Sasuke, while anticipating his acquiring of EMS. Someone like Onoki shouldn't be considered as credible Itachi. Manga has not given us a reason to believe otherwise.



The fact he planned to use it on him doesnt prove it would have affected him. It is that simple. There is no proof that Kotoamatsukami can affect EMS.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2015)

having clones doesn't suddenly reduce his reactions his chakra level sure but the guy didn't even react to amaterasu at all 

in any case what everyone else has told u on this thread itachi trolls


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## StarWanderer (Aug 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> having clones doesn't suddenly reduce his reactions his chakra level sure but the guy didn't even react to amaterasu at all
> 
> in any case what everyone else has told u on this thread itachi trolls



How did he never reacted to Amaterasu when it wasnt out in the first place? Plus, the crow started to go out when Itachi wasnt utilising Amaterasu yet.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It seems you dont know that even if Ei is in V2, his hair moves with him while he uses Shunshin.
> 
> 
> 
> And it seems you dont care about this.



His hair lifts up when he amps his raiton shroud  because of the increased electric current : [3]
[3] 
So it looks more spiky.

His hair isn't up here : [3]

That means he wasn't using his V2 shroud, which he needs to access his top speed.

So good job, you've proven that Madara can raise his arms in time to block a hit from V1 A.
But so can Juugo.



> Amaterasu, although miving with it's full speed, almost freezed for Ei. And while it was staying still, he made a 1 meter distance.


Amaterasu doesn't move, it "forms." And what you said didn't happen. Amaterasu didn't freeze, I have no idea what you are talking about. A moved just as Amaterasu was forming, befoıe he caught on fire, and Sasuke focused on the afterimage A left as he moved outside Sasuke's vision.




> I will give you an example. Imagine Neo dodging a bullet. It moves with it's full speed, yet for Neo, it moves realy, realy slow. To the point that it almost freezes being few millimeters from him. Nevertheless, while bullet is moving very, very slow in the air, he makes a 1 meter distance from it. In other words, he moves faster than that bullet. The same thing happened here.


No it didn't. Also irrelevant.
Neo didn't move faster than the bullets.  Speed = Distance x Time.
Bullets crossed a greater distance during the time Neo could lean back, that means bullets are actually faster than Neo.

So even If we liken the amaterasu example to Neo and bullets, that still doesn't prove that A is faster than Amaterasu. He is simply fast enough to dodge it.




> V2 Ei moves faster than Amaterasu,


No he doesn't.



> yet his *faster* V2 speed was countered by Edo Madara


No he didn't.


> , who is slower than alive one. And realy, there were lots of discussion about that. Edo Madara blocked V2 Ei's punch.


He didn't(he wasn't using his V2), but even if we assume it was A's top speed(I have to tell you again that it wasn't), that still wouldn't make Madara as fast as A.
He wouldn't even be close actually.



> Now imagine how easy it would be for alive EMS Madara to dodge Itachi's Amaterasu. Your examples have nothing to do with this debate.


How did you jump to that conclusion ? 

Even from your twisted point of view, it isn't possible.
Your assertions : 

a - A is faster than Amaterasu.
b- Edo Madara can block A
c - that makes him as fast as A or something.
d - Living Madara is faster, so he dodges Amaterasu.

c and d aren't connected because there is no way to know the substantial amount of speed increase Madara got relative to Amaterasu, even if we assume your other assertions are somewhat correct which they aren't.



> Wasnt expecting it? SM Naruto is a *sensor*. And he saw Madara the whole time.



Sensing is an active ability. Naruto simply got caught off gard.



> Although Sai is a lot slower than SM Naruto, the fact he was outclassed in the same way proves nothing. They were both too slow for Madara so he sent them both flying.



Madara hit Sai, and then jumped to Naruto, they were both sent flying. 
As you can see, Sai has his arm up infront of him, just like Naruto. They both guarded themselves from Madara's hit. If Sai isn't as fast as Naruto, or faster, how can he raise his guard up before Naruto can ? 
Also they both got up at the same time, which brings other questions. Like, "Is Sai as durable as SM Naruto?" or "is Sai as strong as Sm Naruto?"

That feat doesn't establish anything, it just shows that Madara was able to take the jump on an off guard Naruto.
And even if we assume that he is fast enough to do the same thing to Naruto when his guard was up, that still doesn't prove anything in relation to his speed vs Amaterasu.



> Which feats have i misinterpreted?


pretty much everything you posted.



> It also seems to be faster due to his performance against SM Naruto


Taking the jump on an off guard Naruto is not a performance, nor it proves anything in relation to his capability of dodging Amaterasu.



> ]and outpacing Onoki's Jinton, which was so fast Madara's clones, capable of pressuring Ei, couldnt escape from it.


outpaced ? What are you referring to ? 
Madara's clones didn't pressure A with speed, they pressured him with numbers.

So your argument is basically this : 
Madara was able to hit SM Naruto, and he dodged(I guess this is what you are referring to with "outpaced") jinton, so he can dodge Amaterasu.

My answer to that : No.

What is SM Naruto and Jinton's relationship to Amaterasu ? How do they connect ? 



> How about him controlling The Juubi?


Thats irrelevant becaue Obito was in the same boat and he was able to use Kamui : [3]
Madara could very well use Susano'o but he couldn't.  Controlling Juubi isn't an excuse, he simply couldn't react.



> How about him reacting to FRS in the manga before that?



I guess it is a toss up. He reacted once, failed to react the other time.
One thing is certain, going by low end feats, Madara can't even react to FRS.
So you should think before you try to build an argument on low end feats, it is a double edged sword.



> Reaction speed is the ability of your brain to react to something. Movement speed is the speed of your hands/legs/head etc.


And guess how your hands and legs move in the first place.
If the reaction doesn't occur, they can't move.



> *And what in the world are you talking about?*  That was when Itachi wasnt even moving, when Kabuto was already in his *endless loop*. All of those things happened in kabuto's mind, in the endless loop Itachi created.


So you have evidence that the feats in Izanami aren't replication of reality ? 
If so, please provide evidence or concede the point.




> First, although Madara had SM, he didnt have EMS precognition. Second, EMS Sasuke has never, ever landed a hit on him. That thing you are talking about could very well be his hair. And it was. Because he never, ever healed such a wound in such a short period of time. And there was no blood dropping there.


EMS precog can replicate SM sensing but it can't replicate the physical strength and speed boost SM Grants.
So SM Madara's body speed should be above EMS Madara's body speed due to SM, whether he has eyes or not. 

Sasuke landed a hit on him here : [3]


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## StarWanderer (Aug 10, 2015)

> His hair lifts up when he amps his raiton shroud because of the increased electric current : [3]
> [3]
> So it looks more spiky.



His hair lifted up there because he pumped his Raiton armor to V2. Just like in that scan i brought here. 



> His hair isn't up here : [3]



How do you know? He is visible from above. His hair could move in such way, because it moves with Ei, it was shown in the scan i brought here. This one:



His words that Madara could counter *even* his speed, his V2 Raiton right before that attack, the need of Onoki to light him up, instead of just going V2, giving Onoki an opportunity to use Jinton - all of that proves it was V2.



> Amaterasu doesn't move, it "forms." And what you said didn't happen. Amaterasu didn't freeze, I have no idea what you are talking about. A moved just as Amaterasu was forming, befoıe he caught on fire, and Sasuke focused on the afterimage A left as he moved outside Sasuke's vision.



It forms in Mangekyou Sharingan and moves from the aye. It seems you dont know how Amaterasu works. I will remind you. 



"Spews from the aye." 

If you were right, then it formed on Ei's body, but how could he escape from it if it formed on his body and was burning his body already? 

I guess i am done with this one. Amaterasu was basicly a slow-mo for Raikage, who effortlessly dodged it.



> No it didn't. Also irrelevant.
> Neo didn't move faster than the bullets. Speed = Distance x Time.
> Bullets crossed a greater distance during the time Neo could lean back, that means bullets are actually faster than Neo.
> 
> So even If we liken the amaterasu example to Neo and bullets, that still doesn't prove that A is faster than Amaterasu. He is simply fast enough to dodge it.



Neo could make a distance of 1 meter, while bullet could make a distance of few millimeters, yet bullet was faster? No. He waited until the moment when bullet is few millimeters from him and then, moved out of it's way. The same thing happened here. Raikage was too cocky in that fight. He effortlessly got out of it's way, while it was at point-blank range. In time when Amaterasu could make a few millimeters distance, Raikage could make a 1 meter distance. He moved faster than Amaterasu. 



> No he doesn't.



He does. According to manga and Databook.



> He didn't(he wasn't using his V2), but even if we assume it was A's top speed(I have to tell you again that it wasn't), that still wouldn't make Madara as fast as A.
> He wouldn't even be close actually.



He was using V2 at that moment. And if Edo (slower) Madara could react to someone who moved a lot faster than Amaterasu and even track lightened Ei's movement, then he will be able to react to it and, due to his physical speed, dodge it. Plus, he has very fast Shunshin.



> How did you jump to that conclusion ?
> 
> Even from your twisted point of view, it isn't possible.
> Your assertions :
> ...



Edo Madara reacted to someone who moves a lot faster than Amaterasu and blocked it. His physical speed was good enough to block someone who moves a lot faster than Amaterasu. Can he react to Amaterasu? Yes, he can. It will be a slow-mo technique for him, just like for V2 Ei, who's punch Madara blocked. Can he get out of it's way? Yes, he can. Amaterasu has a little amount of good feats. And Madara's Shunshin allowed him to outclass SM Naruto - a sensor, who counter-attacked Third Raikage in one try, while KCM Naruto missed 2 times before hitting him. 



> Sensing is an active ability. Naruto simply got caught off gard.



Since when it is active? Anyway, SM Naruto at that point was not a complete idiot to not use his sensing after Madara got out of Hashirama's Gate.

And he couldnt counter-attack him, or do anything at all. And that is a shinobi capable of counter-attacking someone who dodged 2 hits from KCM naruto before that.



> Madara hit Sai, and then jumped to Naruto, they were both sent flying.
> As you can see, Sai has his arm up infront of him, just like Naruto. They both guarded themselves from Madara's hit. If Sai isn't as fast as Naruto, or faster, how can he raise his guard up before Naruto can ?
> Also they both got up at the same time, which brings other questions. Like, "Is Sai as durable as SM Naruto?" or "is Sai as strong as Sm Naruto?"
> 
> ...



Sai havent blocked his hit. It was a reaction to speedblitz - he got hit to the chest so he was sent flying with his arms going forward, like in many other manga's and comics. And he hit Sai after hitting Naruto. Plus, Sai's arm was not in the same position as Naruto's arm.

Durability is irrelevant. That's not what we are discussing right now. But anyway - do you thing the power of hits was the same? 

And i am waiting for you to give me Amaterasu's speed feats. For now, it is a slow-mo for V2 Ei and not fast enough to hit Hachibi's head. 



> pretty much everything you posted.



Nope.



> Taking the jump on an off guard Naruto is not a performance, nor it proves anything in relation to his capability of dodging Amaterasu.



Not an off-guard sensor SM Naruto. And Amaterasu is featless, apart from being a very slow technique for V2 Raikage Ei and not fast enough for Hachibi. Dont even bother bringing that statement up, that Amaterasu is unavoidable. It was thrown away later. Not to mention, Hebi Sasuke with Orochimaru's chakra could run away from Itachi's Amaterasu, who wanted to hit Sasuke with it at that point. 

EMS Madara easily dodges Itachi's Amaterasu.



> outpaced ? What are you referring to ?
> Madara's clones didn't pressure A with speed, they pressured him with numbers.
> 
> So your argument is basically this :
> ...



And with speed. Numbers are meaningless if your opponents are a lot slower than you.

As for Madara himself, he got out of it's range, although partly dismantled, while his chakra was lowered due to active clones, which most likely made his Shunshin slower.



He also moved out of Jinton with such a precise that he did exactly what he wanted - allowed it to dismantle only the part where Hashirama's face was.



And here, he turned around, moved his hand in front of Jinton's beam and activated Preta Path before it reached him.



But his Jinton feats are irrelevant anyway. What is relevant is the fact that even Hebi Sasuke could outrun Itachi's Amaterasu when Itachi *wanted* to hit him with it. Not impressive at all.



> Thats irrelevant becaue Obito was in the same boat and he was able to use Kamui : [3]
> Madara could very well use Susano'o but he couldn't. Controlling Juubi isn't an excuse, he simply couldn't react.



He reacted to that.



Obito could let his control over Juubi at that point, unlike Madara. Controlling the Juubi could very well be an issue there. Especially when Madara reacted to FRS before that, reacted to SA moving at him and put his hands down as soon as his connection with Juubi was cut.





> I guess it is a toss up. He reacted once, failed to react the other time.
> One thing is certain, going by low end feats, Madara can't even react to FRS.
> So you should think before you try to build an argument on low end feats, it is a double edged sword.



He reacted to it both times. The difference is - second time, Juubi control was an issue.



> And guess how your hands and legs move in the first place.
> If the reaction doesn't occur, they can't move.



Reaction speed can be great, but the movement speed can be too low.

With Madara, it is different. He can do the same thing Hebi Sasuke did, but a lot better. Because his Shunshin was a lot faster.



> So you have evidence that the feats in Izanami aren't replication of reality ?
> If so, please provide evidence or concede the point.



Itachi couldnt do the same things before that. And Izanami is a genjutsu. When you'll have a proof that all those things Itachi could do in reality, not just in his endless loop, which was created within Sharingan by his brain, let me know. 



> EMS precog can replicate SM sensing but it can't replicate the physical strength and speed boost SM Grants.
> So SM Madara's body speed should be above EMS Madara's body speed due to SM, whether he has eyes or not.
> 
> Sasuke landed a hit on him here : [3]



EMS precognition is a very different thing from sensing, completely different. 

And he let him do that on purpose. To show him that resistance is useless and convince him to join his side.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 11, 2015)

There's the matter that EMS Madara should possess all the ocular powers Itachi and EMS Sasuke possess....


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There's the matter that EMS Madara should possess all the ocular powers Itachi and EMS Sasuke possess....


He's not invincible though, he doesn't have Amaterasu/Enton does he nor does he have Hashirama's healing powers, that was after their fight?


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## StarWanderer (Aug 13, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke could dodge Itachi's Amaterasu, yet people have their doubts about EMS Madara being capable of dodging it. Itachi wanted to hit Sasuke with Amaterasu. If he didnt want to do that, he wouldnt hit him. That Amaterasu Hebi Sasuke dodged was as fast as usual Amaterasu, there was no reason for Itachi to hold off it's speed.


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