# Sakazuki vs. Mihawk



## trance (Aug 13, 2014)

Location: MarineFord

Intel: Full

Mindset: Bloodlusted

Distance: 25m


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## Arkash (Aug 13, 2014)

Could go either way.


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## Amol (Aug 13, 2014)

Akainu high diff


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## November (Aug 13, 2014)

Go read minamoto kun.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 13, 2014)

Tl;dr version: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Akainu: Melted an iceberg in an instant, helped his fellow Admirals block Whitebeard's quake with Haki, fought against the Strongest Man in the World (even when old and injured, Whitebeard was a monster), stopped his bisento with one foot, survived and remained intangible from an ambush from Marco and Vista with only irritation at their attacks, took a quake punch to the head, blew off half of Whitebeard's skull, and took and survived the old man's Island Splitter. Akainu then proceeded to one shot fighters like Iva and Jimbei, went up against the Whitebeard Crew, and it took Shanks to stop him in his tracks (and if Sengoku hadn't accepted the ceasefire, Akainu would have fought on anyway). And in his battle to claim the title of Fleet Admiral, he narrowly defeated Aokiji, an Admiral level character, while changing Punk Hazard's climate as a side effect.

Mihawk: Threw a slash that got blocked by Jozu, sliced an iceberg in half, then got held off by Vista, who proceeded to fight on even grounds with Mihawk for a time. We don't even know how strong Mihawk and Shanks were at the time of their duels and it's not likely their growth rates were the same.




Shortened version: Akainu high diff. Name it, feats, hype, portrayal, he demolishes Mihawk in absolutely everything.


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## Suit (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm calling it high mid-diff. Sakazuki isn't losing this after taking on Whitebeard, and Mihawk isn't Admiral level either.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 13, 2014)

Mihawk gets a magma fist through the chest


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## Ruse (Aug 13, 2014)

Akainu high diff


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## Orca (Aug 13, 2014)

Akainu extreme diff.


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## Rob (Aug 13, 2014)

Sakazuki High or Extreme diff.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 13, 2014)

Sazakuzi mid-high diff.


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## Monster (Aug 13, 2014)

Akainu wins.


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## Suit (Aug 13, 2014)

Jesus Gai said:


> Akainu wins.



Nominating this for canon.


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## Kaiser (Aug 13, 2014)

Akainu barely


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## Lawliet (Aug 13, 2014)

Akainu pisses himself after he wins due to not being able to move a muscle. That's how hard it's going to be.


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## Luke (Aug 13, 2014)

Akainu wins with high difficulty.


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## Magician (Aug 13, 2014)

Mihawk gets magma fisted.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 13, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Mihawk gets magma fisted.


You know, I just love it whenever Akainu magmafists one of his opponents, it's probably my favorite finishing move in the manga (second only to Whitebeard's quake punch)...is that ok?


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## Furinji Saiga (Aug 13, 2014)

I believe it can go either way extreme difficulty.


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## Bohemian Knight (Aug 13, 2014)

I think Mihawk can hang with the admirals. There's not a huge difference between them.

With that being said, Akainu very high diff.


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## Unclear Justice (Aug 13, 2014)

Imo Sakazuki deserves BoD in a lot of match-ups given him being possibly Luffy's final opponent. This is one of those match-ups.


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## barreltheif (Aug 13, 2014)

Too close to call. Akainu and Mihawk are currently the two best candidates for WSM.


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## Sablés (Aug 13, 2014)

Sakazuki most definitely.

FV hype and feats > Mihawk.


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## Dunno (Aug 13, 2014)

Mihawk high to extreme diff. I view Shanks as stronger than Akainu, and Mihawk slightly above him.


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## barreltheif (Aug 13, 2014)

^No doubt Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, but why do you place Shanks above Akainu?


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## Lycka (Aug 13, 2014)

Akainu gets cleaved high difficulty.




That's a fact.


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## Dellinger (Aug 13, 2014)

Akainu wrecks him.Hype,feats,everything is on his side.


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## PortgasDStarrk (Aug 13, 2014)

Sakazuki. High-diff. He has everything. Hype, Portrayal, Feats.


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## Mike S (Aug 13, 2014)

Gauging the strength relationship between these 4 characters always leaves me going in circles because I can find arguments that supports all 4 characters being the strongest. For example, one can find arguments that supports Akainu > Dragon, Shanks > Akainu, and Mihawk > Shanks. Theoretically, stringing these arguments together would make Mihawk stronger than Dragon, and that doesn't sit right with me. What I always seem to come up with that makes the most sense is

Dragon~Akainu >= Shanks/Mihawk 

Dragon and Akainu being completely equal--similar to Roger and Whitebeard. Then an almost unnoticeable gap where Shanks/Mihawk would be. Now the reason I put "Shanks/Mihawk" instead of "Shanks~Mihawk" is because this is a subject that I'm even more unsure of. It's completely possible for both characters to be equals or one character to be stronger.

Akainu takes it with extreme difficulty.


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## Lycka (Aug 13, 2014)

Mihawk and Shanks should be the two strongest fighters alive right now.

Whitebeard specifically highlighted how detrimental they were to the current pirate age.

Going as far as saying duels between them were legendary. Coming from the man who considered Akainu a fly on the wall.


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## Krippy (Aug 13, 2014)

>Majority think Mihawk would win against Kuzan
>Majority think Mihawk would lose against Sakazuki

What manner of cancer is this?


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## zoro (Aug 13, 2014)

I'd give this to Akainu on the higher end of high difficulty


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## Dellinger (Aug 13, 2014)

WB was considering everyone a fly.He even lectured Shanks for talking to him so your point is crap as every other thing you post.

And he never called their duels legendary.He talks about how others consider those times (Roger's era) a legend.


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## Ruse (Aug 13, 2014)

Krippy said:


> >Majority think Mihawk would win against Kuzan
> >Majority think Mihawk would lose against Sakazuki
> 
> What manner of cancer is this?



OPBD for ya  

Taking someone to a 10 day fight doesn't mean shit apparently.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 13, 2014)

Krippy said:


> >Majority think Mihawk would win against Kuzan
> >Majority think Mihawk would lose against Sakazuki
> 
> What manner of cancer is this?


Mihawk is (supposedly) Zoro's EoS goal, and regularly dueled with Shanks (over a decade ago), so that MUST mean he's above just about everyone else...


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## The Bloody Nine (Aug 13, 2014)

Krippy said:


> >Majority think Mihawk would win against Kuzan
> >Majority think Mihawk would lose against Sakazuki
> 
> What manner of cancer is this?



IIRC the majority also had Kuzan beating Mihawk. Just more Zorotards in the other thread, with a much longer debate, make it seem worse then it was. 

I doubt you will find anyone who thinks he can beat Kuzan but not Sakazuki.


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## Lycka (Aug 13, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> *WB was considering everyone a fly.*He even lectured Shanks for talking to him so your point is crap as every other thing you post.
> 
> And he never called their duels legendary.He talks about how others consider those times (Roger's era) a legend.



No, he wasn't. He had the respect for Shanks despite the disagreements he had with him. Same with Garp. 

Actually read the manga,






lol @ your petty insults tho...


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## Gilgamesh (Aug 13, 2014)

Mihawk fans deserve to die


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## Lycka (Aug 13, 2014)

Gilgamesh said:


> Mihawk fans deserve to die



The internet is serious business!


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## monkey d ace (Aug 13, 2014)

akainu wins, barely high diff.


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## barreltheif (Aug 13, 2014)

Krippy said:


> >Majority think Mihawk would win against Kuzan
> >Majority think Mihawk would lose against Sakazuki
> 
> What manner of cancer is this?




That's not really unreasonable. While Akainu and Aokiji are as dead equal as two characters can be, Aokiji does a little better against defensively oriented opponents, since his DF can just ignore defense, while Akainu does better against offensively oriented opponents. Thus Akainu might do better than Aokiji against Mihawk but a little worse against, say, Marco or Jozu.


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## Dellinger (Aug 13, 2014)

OPtiers said:


> No, he wasn't. He had the respect for Shanks despite the disagreements he had with him. Same with Garp.
> 
> Actually read the manga,
> 
> ...







WB was considering everyone an idiotic brat except for guys like Garp,Sengoku and Rayleigh.He only thought high of those guys.

And lol at posting an anime picture where in the manag,nothing like that happened.


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## Krippy (Aug 13, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> That's not really unreasonable. While Akainu and Aokiji are as dead equal as two characters can be, Aokiji does a little better against defensively oriented opponents, since his DF can just ignore defense, while Akainu does better against offensively oriented opponents. Thus Akainu might do better than Aokiji against Mihawk but a little worse against, say, Marco or Jozu.



I see what you mean, but that shouldn't make the difference between winning and losing. At best it would make it a bit harder for Kuzan to put him down.


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## Krippy (Aug 13, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Mihawk is (supposedly) Zoro's EoS goal, and regularly dueled with Shanks (over a decade ago), so that MUST mean he's above just about everyone else...





The Bloody Nine said:


> IIRC the majority also had Kuzan beating Mihawk. Just more Zorotards in the other thread, with a much longer debate, make it seem worse then it was.
> 
> I doubt you will find anyone who thinks he can beat Kuzan but not Sakazuki.



Lol. Never mind then.


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## Sablés (Aug 13, 2014)

In fights between solid top-tiers, what you consider "little" is more than likely what decides a match.


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## Unclear Justice (Aug 14, 2014)

The Bloody Nine said:


> I doubt you will find anyone who thinks he can beat Kuzan but not Sakazuki.



He would find someone.

Me for example.


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## Furinji Saiga (Aug 14, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> He would find someone.
> 
> Me for example.



Me 2


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## Suit (Aug 14, 2014)

Krippy said:


> >Majority think Mihawk would win against Kuzan
> >Majority think Mihawk would lose against Sakazuki
> 
> What manner of cancer is this?



The kind that affects the brain, obviously.



Gilgamesh said:


> Mihawk fans deserve to die


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## Sanji (Aug 14, 2014)

Akainu extreme diff.


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## Extravlad (Aug 14, 2014)

Akainu extreme difficulty.
Mihawk is probably the strongest character Akainu can beat and the current #2 in the world atm.


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## Suit (Aug 14, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> That's not really unreasonable. While Akainu and Aokiji are as dead equal as two characters can be, Aokiji does a little better against defensively oriented opponents, since his DF can just ignore defense, while Akainu does better against offensively oriented opponents. Thus Akainu might do better than Aokiji against Mihawk but a little worse against, say, Marco or Jozu.


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## trance (Aug 14, 2014)

The support in Red Dog-san's favor is overwhelming.


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## Dunno (Aug 14, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> ^No doubt Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, but why do you place Shanks above Akainu?



His portrayal mostly. He's looked better than Akainu imo with stopping the war and all that plus his clash with Whitebeard. I also consider the Yonkou stronger on average than the admirals, and Shanks the second strongest Yonkou. Strong individuals > strong people who are part of a large organization. I just don't see both Akainu and Kuzan being the two strongest people in the world in a pirate manga. I think the reason Akainu is so highly rated on this forum is that he's the only top tier who's gone all out, things should change when we see others do so too.


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## Extravlad (Aug 14, 2014)

> and all that plus his clash with Whitebeard.


Akainu has better feats against WB.
He stopped WB's gura gura bisento with his fucking leg.


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## trance (Aug 14, 2014)

Dunno said:


> His portrayal mostly. He's looked better than Akainu imo with stopping the war and all that plus his clash with Whitebeard. I also consider the Yonkou stronger on average than the admirals, and Shanks the second strongest Yonkou. Strong individuals > strong people who are part of a large organization. I just don't see both Akainu and Kuzan being the two strongest people in the world in a pirate manga. I think the reason Akainu is so highly rated on this forum is that he's the only top tier who's gone all out, things should change when we see others do so too.



Sakazuki has been portrayed as this man who can stand at the top of a pirate-dominated realm, with only a very select few able to rival him. His main character trait is his strict adherence to Absolute Justice yet to fuel this mindset and his goals, he needs to be strong, otherwise, he's going to be pushed around. Obviously, that's not the case. Thus, strength is his second most prominent trait. The mere fact that a single mention of his name can send Teach, who had just acquired the most powerful Paramecia and had been named the undisputed closest to becoming a Yonko, instantly into distress and causing him to flee is overwhelming proof of his strength, something that puts him on comparable or _possibly_ even greater standing than Shanks or the other Emperors.


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## Dunno (Aug 14, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Akainu has better feats against WB.
> He stopped WB's gura gura bisento with his fucking leg.



Shanks' clash certainly looked more impressive though.


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## Dunno (Aug 14, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Sakazuki has been portrayed as this man who can stand at the top of a pirate-dominated realm, with only a very select few able to rival him. His main character trait is his strict adherence to Absolute Justice yet to fuel this mindset and his goals, he needs to be strong, otherwise, he's going to be pushed around. Obviously, that's not the case. Thus, strength is his second most prominent trait. The mere fact that a single mention of his name can send Teach, who had just acquired the most powerful Paramecia and had been named the undisputed closest to becoming a Yonko, instantly into distress and causing him to flee is overwhelming proof of his strength, something that puts him on comparable or _possibly_ even greater standing than Shanks or the other Emperors.



There's no doubt he's up there with the strongest, I just don't see him being number one. With him being virtually equal to Kuzan, that would mean that the marines had the two strongest people in the world at the time Whitebeard died, which doesn't sit right with me. Akainu is also the leader of a huge organization, and he has a huge force backing him. There's less need for him to personally be extremely strong than for a Yonkou with a small crew or Mihawk, who don't have that kind of backup. Courage isn't Teach's most prominent trait, what with having his crew kill Whitebeard as soon as he got into trouble and all. Don't forget that he declined to fight Shanks too when he was challenged, so I'm certain he would have run from any top tier. I wouldn't call that an overwhelming proof of his strength, it shows only that he was stronger than Teach at the time.


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## Lycka (Aug 14, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Sakazuki has been portrayed as this man who can stand at the top of a pirate-dominated realm, with only a very select few able to rival him. His main character trait is his strict adherence to Absolute Justice yet to fuel this mindset and his goals, he needs to be strong, otherwise, he's going to be pushed around. Obviously, that's not the case. Thus, strength is his second most prominent trait. The mere fact that a single mention of his name can send Teach, who had just acquired the most powerful Paramecia and had been named the undisputed closest to becoming a Yonko, instantly into distress and causing him to flee is overwhelming proof of his strength, something that puts him on comparable or _possibly_ even greater standing than Shanks or the other Emperors.



Strong Hyperbole.


Don't forget the punk bitch who got two shotted by Whitebeard and stopped cold in his tracks by Shanks someone Mihawk doesn't even consider worth dueling.



Lol Teach took a quake and didn't whine like Akainu.


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## trance (Aug 14, 2014)

> There's no doubt he's up there with the strongest, I just don't see him being number one.



I'm not against the idea of him being a placeholder for the strongest til Teach is ready to take the mantle from him (and Luffy in turn after that). Seemingly, unlike Teach, he has less room to grow and his power is more likely to remain static. The foundation of his strength is more or less set in stone while Teach is more mysterious and fluid, giving Oda enough material to properly build him up as the strongest. As I said, his strength is absolutely massive and while I don't think he is the strongest (number two imo), I can just as easily see that he can be for a limited amount of time, mostly due to his hype.



> There's less need for him to personally be extremely strong than for a Yonkou with a small crew or Mihawk, who don't have that kind of backup.



Actually, considering the Marines have personally taken the fight directly to the Emperors by relocating to the New World (personally challenging their authority), there *is* more need for not only him, but also the other Admirals, to be extremely strong and remain in top form as to combat their pirate counterparts and keep from getting decimated. This is also in line with Sakazuki's mentality that to achieve his goals, he needs to be as strong as he can possibly be.



> Don't forget that he declined to fight Shanks too when he was challenged, so I'm certain he would have run from any top tier.



He was fending off Sengoku + Garp with his crew at MarineFord. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have fled from _any_ top tier. It's obvious that both instances against Shanks and Sakazuki were to hype up their strength as something that Teach, in spite of all the unfathomable power he wielded at the time, needed to prepare for.



OPtiers said:


> Don't forget the punk bitch who got two shotted by Whitebeard and stopped cold in his tracks by Shanks someone Mihawk doesn't even consider worth dueling.



Don't forget that fake-ass swordsman was stalemated by Vista, who couldn't dent Akainu and was stopped cold in his tracks by Crocodile.


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## Esdese (Aug 14, 2014)

Mihawk high-diff. Sakazuki just doesn't have the power/skill to tango with top dogs like Mihawk


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## Shinthia (Aug 14, 2014)

magmafist , magmafist everywhere :33


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## trance (Aug 14, 2014)

Esdese said:


> Mihawk high-diff. Sakazuki just doesn't have the power/skill to tango with top dogs like Mihawk



Lelanon. 

Go home, you're drunk.


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## Orca (Aug 14, 2014)

Dunno said:


> His portrayal mostly. He's looked better than Akainu imo with stopping the war and all that plus his clash with Whitebeard. I also consider the Yonkou stronger on average than the admirals, and Shanks the second strongest Yonkou. Strong individuals > strong people who are part of a large organization. I just don't see both Akainu and Kuzan being the two strongest people in the world in a pirate manga. I think the reason Akainu is so highly rated on this forum is that he's the only top tier who's gone all out, things should change when we see others do so too.



This is circular reasoning at best. You're using shanks' portrayal to prove him to be stronger than Akainu. The same portrayal should easily put Shanks above Mihawk as well. However if you use the WSS argument and say that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks even though Shanks had a lot better portrayal then shanks portrayal shouldn't put him above Akainu either. 

Tl;dr  Shanks portrayal shouldn't put him above Akainu if it's not putting him above Mihawk.


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## RF (Aug 14, 2014)

Mihawk's strength is completely unknown. If I had to guess I'd say toss-up.


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## Dunno (Aug 14, 2014)

Luffee said:


> This is circular reasoning at best. You're using shanks' portrayal to prove him to be stronger than Akainu. The same portrayal should easily put Shanks above Mihawk as well. However if you use the WSS argument and say that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks even though Shanks had a lot better portrayal then shanks portrayal shouldn't put him above Akainu either.
> 
> Tl;dr  Shanks portrayal shouldn't put him above Akainu if it's not putting him above Mihawk.



Well, this is ironic... Arguing that an argument is circular, using a circular argument.  Let's first establish that I'm not trying to "prove" anything, because simply put, there's no way for anyone to prove that either one of the combatants is stronger. Shanks' portrayal and hype puts him above Akainu in my book. Now I believe that Shanks is a swordsman, because of him using a sword every clash, having swords on his jolly roger and duelling with Mihawk. This puts Mihawk however slightly above Shanks. There's no circle argument here, it's completely linear: 

(A -> D) because (A -> B), and (B -> C) and (C -> D). 

(Mihawk is stronger than Akainu) because (Mihawk is stronger than every other swordsman) and (Shanks is a swordsman) and (Shanks' portrayal is better than Akainu's)

A circle argument would look like this: 

(A -> C) because (C -> A) because (A -> C) because (C -> A) because (A -> C) because (C -> A)... and so on.

(Akainu is stronger than Mihawk) because (If Shanks' portrayal would put him above Akainu, it should put him above Mihawk as well) because (Akainu is stronger than Mihawk) because (If Shanks' portrayal would put him above Akainu, it should put him above Mihawk as well) because (Akainu is stronger than Mihawk) because (If Shanks' portrayal would put him above Akainu, it should put him above Mihawk as well)... and so on


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## barreltheif (Aug 14, 2014)

Luffee said:


> This is circular reasoning at best. You're using shanks' portrayal to prove him to be stronger than Akainu. The same portrayal should easily put Shanks above Mihawk as well. However if you use the WSS argument and say that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks even though Shanks had a lot better portrayal then shanks portrayal shouldn't put him above Akainu either.
> 
> Tl;dr  Shanks portrayal shouldn't put him above Akainu if it's not putting him above Mihawk.




His reasoning isn't circular. He thinks that Shanks' portrayal puts him above Akainu. Mihawk is automatically stronger than Shanks due to being WSS, so it doesn't really matter whether Shanks has better portaryal.

That said, I don't really how Shanks' portrayal could put him above Akainu. Any top tier could clash with WB, especially when WB isn't even using his DF powers.


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## Orca (Aug 14, 2014)

K. Let's say it's not circular. It definitely isn't consistent.

According to Dunno

Shanks portrayal > Akainu
WSS Mihawk >  Shanks
So Mihawk > Akainu

But if Shanks isn't stronger than Mihawk(even though shanks has better portrayal), how does Akainu become weaker than Shanks when dunno himself is admitting that another character is stronger than Shanks even though shanks has better portrayal than the said character as well.

Using Dunno's own logic, one could say easily Akainu has better portrayal than Mihawk and since Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, it makes Akainu stronger than Shanks as well.

I hope you get what I mean.


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## Canute87 (Aug 14, 2014)

Akainu because i want him to win.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 14, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Akainu because i want him to win.


Why, if you don't mind my asking?
As for me, I want him to win because not only does he have far FAR better feats, hype, portrayal, etc, but also because Akainu is a better character than Mihawk.


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## Canute87 (Aug 14, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Why, if you don't mind my asking?
> As for me, I want him to win because not only does he have far FAR better feats, hype, portrayal, etc, but also because Akainu is a better character than Mihawk.



Well......yeah.


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## Dunno (Aug 14, 2014)

Luffee said:


> K. Let's say it's not circular. It definitely isn't consistent.
> 
> According to Dunno
> 
> ...



You are partially correct. My logic is consistent given that we make the assumption that Shanks is stronger than Akainu. If one makes the assumption that Akainu is stronger than Mihawk, then he is stronger than Shanks as well, given that Shanks is a swordsman. 

Shanks portrayal > Akainu
WSS Mihawk >  Shanks
So Mihawk > Akainu

This is the logic chain we get if we make the assumption that Shanks is stronger than Akainu, and that Shanks is a swordsman, which are the two pillars my argument hinges upon.

Now if you want to compare Shanks to Akainu and you go from the other end you get: 

Akainu > Mihawk
WSS Mihawk > Shanks
Akainu > Shanks

This is the logic chain we get if we make the assumption that Akainu is stronger than Mihawk, and that Shanks is a swordsman, which are valid opinions, but the first one is not one that I share.


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## Canute87 (Aug 14, 2014)

Mihawk always fucks up this power scaling.

Wasn't there some translation issue with his title?


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## barreltheif (Aug 14, 2014)

Luffee said:


> K. Let's say it's not circular. It definitely isn't consistent.
> 
> According to Dunno
> 
> ...




I see what you're saying, but all it shows is that his evidence isn't *defeasible*. Shanks having better portrayal than Akainu is evidence that Shanks>Akainu, but it's evidence that could be outweighed by future evidence.

That said, I disagree with Dunno's premise that Akainu has seemed inferior to Shanks, but not with Dunno's logic.


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## Shinthia (Aug 14, 2014)

WSS title does not make Mihawk stronger than Shanks. Oda made clear that even tho Mihawk is WSS that does not mean he beat Shanks. Well Mihawk tried like a lots of time but could not win. So, its painfully clear the title of WSS mean jack shit in Mihawk vs Shanks debate


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## Extravlad (Aug 14, 2014)

Lionel Messi you're giving me cancer everytime you make a post about a Supernova or Shanks.
The WSS is able to beat Shanks, wether you like it or not there's a reason behind Zoro's will to DEFEAT Mihawk in 1V1.
The stronger swordsman shall win the fight, Mihawk is the stronger swordsman, so he'd beat Shanks.



> Shanks portrayal > Akainu


What portrayal?


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## barreltheif (Aug 14, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> WSS title does not make Mihawk stronger than Shanks. Oda made clear that even tho Mihawk is WSS that does not mean he beat Shanks. Well Mihawk tried like a lots of time but could not win. So, its painfully clear the title of WSS mean jack shit in Mihawk vs Shanks debate




That was twelve years ago. And when was it stated that Mihawk never won a fight?


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## Raiden34 (Aug 14, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> That was twelve years ago. And when was it stated that Mihawk never won a fight?



Don't you think that if Mihawk won a fight against Shanks, at least he should gave a scar to Shanks like Teach did ?


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## Canute87 (Aug 14, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> WSS title does not make Mihawk stronger than Shanks. Oda made clear that even tho Mihawk is WSS that does not mean he beat Shanks. Well Mihawk tried like a lots of time but could not win. So, its painfully clear the title of WSS mean jack shit in Mihawk vs Shanks debate



Need to search for that interview because people are stubborn.


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## Extravlad (Aug 14, 2014)

Mihawk never won a fight against Shanks.
They went even everytime they fought each other.
Then Shanks lost his arm and Mihawk surpassed him.


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## monkey d ace (Aug 14, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Mihawk never won a fight against Shanks.
> They went even everytime they fought each other.
> Then Shanks lost his arm and Mihawk surpassed him.


iirc, oda said that it didn't make him weaker at all.


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## Han Zolo (Aug 14, 2014)

Mihawk = Shanks in strength. They're the two strongest characters around, like Roger and WB of mid gen.

However, if they fight each other Mihawk would win cuz he's a better swordsman than Shanks.

Mihawk > Akainu, high diff. Akainu - Kaido - Dragon are the next strongest.


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## StrawHat4Life (Aug 14, 2014)

I'm inclined to give this to Mihawk with extreme difficulty. Though it could very well go either way. I expect Akainu to be one of the final villains. 



Lionel Messi said:


> WSS title does not make Mihawk stronger than Shanks. *Oda made clear that even tho Mihawk is WSS that does not mean he beat Shanks.* Well Mihawk tried like a lots of time but could not win. So, its painfully clear the title of WSS mean jack shit in Mihawk vs Shanks debate



Source? 

The title means that Mihawk is a superior swordsman than Shanks. Since Shanks is most definitely a swordsman it is totally relevant to any discussion of their strength levels.


----------



## Amol (Aug 14, 2014)

Mihawk while certainly is WSS but *He is not Zoro' final opponent *(unless someone can convince me that Mihawk secretly works for BB).
Hence 
*Mihawk =/= EoS Zoro*
On the other hand Akainu may end up being Final Opponent of Luffy (PK).
Akainu wins High diff without a doubt.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Aug 14, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> iirc, oda said that it didn't make him weaker at all.



I have yet to see the source of that statement.


----------



## StrawHat4Life (Aug 14, 2014)

Amol said:


> Mihawk while certainly is WSS but *He is not Zoro' final opponent *(unless someone can convince me that Mihawk secretly works for BB).
> Hence
> *Mihawk =/= EoS Zoro*
> On the other hand Akainu may end up being Final Opponent of Luffy (PK).
> Akainu wins High diff without a doubt.



So Mihawk can't be a final opponent because he's not in the BB crew. Yet you still think Akainu, definitely not working with BB, can be a final villain. Huh?


----------



## StrawHat4Life (Aug 14, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> I have yet to see the source for that statement.



I've been asking for that very source for years.


----------



## Shinthia (Aug 14, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> Source?
> 
> The title means that Mihawk is a superior swordsman than Shanks. Since Shanks is most definitely a swordsman it is totally relevant to any discussion of their strength levels.



manga duh

if u still cant find the source, its when Luffy's first bounty came up & Mihawk went to see Shanks


----------



## Amol (Aug 14, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> So Mihawk can't be a final opponent because he's not in the BB crew. Yet you still think Akainu, definitely not working with BB, can be a final villain. Huh?


Are you seriously going to argue about Mihawk being bad guy in final war?  
Akainu has great probability . In final war WG is not going to sit aside. They are part of final war. Akainu and BB both have personal enmity towards Luffy and Vice Versa.
On the other hand Mihawk is good guy. He is sensei of Zoro. He doesn't take orders from anyone. So yes i can positively say that Mihawk is not Zoro's final opponent.


----------



## Shinthia (Aug 14, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> That was twelve years ago. And when was it stated that Mihawk never won a fight?



Mihawk did not wanted to settle the score with Shanks anymore .Why there is a score to settle ? Because their previous fight had no winner.

Well u can say Mihawk won "x" number of fight against Shanks but that also mean he lost "x" number of match against Shanks.


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## Extravlad (Aug 14, 2014)

> Are you seriously going to argue about Mihawk being bad guy in final war?


Well yes if the Shichibukai still exist they can ask him to help like they did before marineford.
Mihawk would accept to finally fight Zoro and see if he surpassed him.

The only thing I don't like about this scenario is that I don't want Luffy to achieve his dream before Zoro, becoming PK is supposed to be harder.

But it's still possible anyway, we know that both Nami and Brook will achieve their dreams after Luffy become PK


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Aug 14, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> He would find someone.
> 
> Me for example.





Furinji Saiga said:


> Me 2




Okay, wow. So you think Mihawk is closer in strength to Akainu then Kuzan ? A fight between them goes 15 days ? 20 ?



Canute87 said:


> Mihawk always fucks up this power scaling.
> 
> Wasn't there some translation issue with his title?



That's what you get when you try to force a high tier into being a top tier. So you get shit like top tier Vista and " he wasn't serious when he was trying to kill Luffy".


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 14, 2014)

I like how they call Mihawk stronger than Shanks even though hawk-eye refuses to confront Shanks every time he meets him.

Shanks' portrayal > Mihawk's

Akainu's portrayal > Mihawk's

Shanks and Akainu > Mihawk.


----------



## Lycka (Aug 14, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Mihawk never won a fight against Shanks.
> They went even everytime they fought each other.
> Then Shanks lost his arm and Mihawk surpassed him.



They were even up into until Shanks lost his arm and he didn't consider him strong enough to be with dueling.


----------



## Lycka (Aug 14, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> I like how they call Mihawk stronger than Shanks even though hawk-eye refuses to confront Shanks every time he meets him.
> 
> Shanks' portrayal > Mihawk's
> 
> ...



Couldn't be more wrong.


----------



## Dunno (Aug 14, 2014)

Marco1907 said:


> Don't you think that if Mihawk won a fight against Shanks, at least he should gave a scar to Shanks like Teach did ?





Lionel Messi said:


> WSS title does not make Mihawk stronger than Shanks. Oda made clear that even tho Mihawk is WSS that does not mean he beat Shanks. Well Mihawk tried like a lots of time but could not win. So, its painfully clear the title of WSS mean jack shit in Mihawk vs Shanks debate



Mihawk didn't try once after Shanks lost his arm, which was a long time ago. Whether Mihawk has beaten Shanks or not doesn't matter though. As long as Mihawk is the WSS, the only thing that matters is if Shanks is a swordsman or not. Just like Whitebeard being the WSM puts him above every man, Mihawk being the WSS puts him above every swordsman. In both cases this applies to people they haven't beaten personally too.



Extravlad said:


> What portrayal?











The Bloody Nine said:


> That's what you get when you try to force a high tier into being a top tier. So you get shit like top tier Vista and " he wasn't serious when he was trying to kill Luffy".



Well, he had less reason to be serious than Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji and Sengoku were when tried and failed to kill Luffy.



White Hawk said:


> I like how they call Mihawk stronger than Shanks even though hawk-eye refuses to confront Shanks every time he meets him.



You can't seriously believe that's because he's afraid to lose, can you?


----------



## Unclear Justice (Aug 14, 2014)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Okay, wow. So you think Mihawk is closer in strength to Akainu then Kuzan ? A fight between them goes 15 days ? 20 ?


I think out of the C3 Aokiji is the best match up for Mihawk and Akainu is the worst. This is where my statements come from. Mihawk being in between them in the overall power scheme is a possible result of that. It may seem unlikely but no matter how close two characters are: If they aren't equal there is always enough space between them for an infinite amount of other characters. The differences between those characters just have to be small enough.

Also no matter where I think Mihawk stands in comparison to them I would expect their fights to end in less than 10 days. Being closer in power deosn't mean the fight would take longer. We will see people as strong as the Admirals fight each other at some point in the manga and I don't think anyone seriously believes that those battles will last for days. Those 10 days statement was a hype tool that maybe can be explained from an in universe perspective if their DF abilities negated each other. This shouldn't be the standard for other people of their caliber.


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 14, 2014)

Dunno said:


> You can't seriously believe that's because he's afraid to lose, can you?



Nope but you can't say that Mihawk is stronger when Shanks portrayal is far better while no one gave a fuck about Mihawk in the war.Simple as that.

I mean it's ridiculous,you bring Shanks immense portrayal and you try to put Mihawk above him even though Mihawk's portrayal isn't even close to Shanks' one let alone Akainu's.


----------



## Shinthia (Aug 14, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Mihawk didn't try once after Shanks lost his arm, which was a long time ago. Whether Mihawk has beaten Shanks or not doesn't matter though. As long as Mihawk is the WSS, the only thing that matters is if Shanks is a swordsman or not. Just like Whitebeard being the WSM puts him above every man, Mihawk being the WSS puts him above every swordsman. In both cases this applies to people they haven't beaten personally too.



Exactly. Mihawk never tried to beat Shanks after he lost his arm. Mihawk never tried to beat the person ,against whom he never won.

WB too had someone who he could not beat, Roger. But, Roger is dead. Thats why he got the title WSM.

So, why Mihawk got the WSS title while Shanks is still alive ? I *think * (speculation) its because Shanks is no longer a swordsman like he once were. After all, he lost his sword arm/stronger arm. I think he is now Vergo type fighter . Who depends on his CoA more than his weapon. Off course he uses his sword like Vergo uses his bamboo but its not compulsory.

Otherwise, Mihawks WSS title will be a fake title which is  ridiculous.


----------



## Monster (Aug 14, 2014)

Mihawk > Shanks any day, every day till the end of time.


----------



## Suit (Aug 14, 2014)

Marco1907 said:


> Don't you think that if Mihawk won a fight against Shanks, at least he should gave a scar to Shanks like Teach did ?



Pre-Gura Teach > Mihawk confirmed.

Can't deny the battle scars.


----------



## Sablés (Aug 14, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Nope but you can't say that Mihawk is stronger when Shanks portrayal is far better while no one gave a fuck about Mihawk in the war.Simple as that.
> 
> I mean it's ridiculous,you bring Shanks immense portrayal and you try to put Mihawk above him even though Mihawk's portrayal isn't even close to Shanks' one let alone Akainu's.



Ridiculous. Shanks is a Yonkou with an army of powerful pirates at his heel and is thus a much greater threat as a whole whereas Mihawk is a sole maverick with the majority of the combatants in the war being in his general league.


----------



## Krippy (Aug 14, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> In fights between solid top-tiers, what you consider "little" is more than likely what decides a match.



Nope.


----------



## StrawHat4Life (Aug 14, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> manga duh
> 
> if u still cant find the source, its when Luffy's first bounty came up & Mihawk went to see Shanks



So you took a scene where Mihawk stated he won't duel a one armed man and somehow construed it to mean that Mihawk is inferior to Shanks. Wonderful.



Amol said:


> Are you seriously going to argue about Mihawk being bad guy in final war?
> Akainu has great probability . In final war WG is not going to sit aside. They are part of final war. Akainu and BB both have personal enmity towards Luffy and Vice Versa.
> On the other hand Mihawk is good guy. He is sensei of Zoro. He doesn't take orders from anyone. So yes i can positively say that Mihawk is not Zoro's final opponent.



Mihawk isn't a bad guy or a good guy. He is the man Zoro must defeat to achieve his dream. That's a fact for as long as Mihawk holds the title of WSS. Beyond that no one can say with any certainty how the final events will play out and exactly who will be involved. Akainu could very well be taken out before BB. Who knows.


----------



## Shinthia (Aug 14, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> So you took a scene where Mihawk stated he won't duel a one armed man and somehow construed it to mean that Mihawk is inferior to Shanks. Wonderful.



i just showed the source to prove that having the title does not change the fact Mihawk never could beat Shanks. Thats all.


----------



## Jellal Fernandes (Aug 14, 2014)

Why is everyone assuming Shanks appeared to be Akainu's equal or stronger in that one confrontation? From my perspective Akainu was worn down from the battle that had taken place and saw it wasn't in the best interest to pursue a fight with a Yonkou captain and his whole fleet. I don't think anyone here will dispute that if Akainu had the chance to fight Shanks one on one he wouldn't take it. I think he would win that confrontation. 

Now as for Mihawk being the WSS is great and all but he didn't appear to be that impressive in his confrontations in the Marineford arc. Didn't do much against Vista, didn't do much against Croc, his slash was blocked by Jozu. It wasn't that impressive of a showing. Next up we have this history of his battles against Shanks but that was in the past and we don't know how much stronger Shanks has gotten since then. I mean if Shanks received a scar from Teach, before Teach even had a devil fruit, Shanks couldn't have been that strong or Yonkou status back then. Therefore its difficult to gage Mihawk's true strength because Shanks looks different now then he did in the past (bulky) and it appears to me that Shanks has gotten stronger over the years as opposed to the contrary of him getting weaker (losing an arm). Having said that we are putting Mihawk with all these question marks against a guy who has clearly demonstrated his power by defeating Aokij an admiral, by annihilating the second in command of the WB, by making Teach and his entire crew run with their tails between their legs, and on top of all that inflicting some serious damage to WB himself. 

Akainu wins until Mihawk shows us something other than a glorified title and tales of his battles against Shanks.


----------



## Suit (Aug 15, 2014)

Jellal Fernandes said:


> Why is everyone assuming Shanks appeared to be Akainu's equal or stronger in that one confrontation? From my perspective Akainu was worn down from the battle that had taken place and saw it wasn't in the best interest to pursue a fight with a Yonkou captain and his whole fleet. I don't think anyone here will dispute that if Akainu had the chance to fight Shanks one on one he wouldn't take it. I think he would win that confrontation.
> 
> Now as for Mihawk being the WSS is great and all but he didn't appear to be that impressive in his confrontations in the Marineford arc. Didn't do much against Vista, didn't do much against Croc, his slash was blocked by Jozu. It wasn't that impressive of a showing. Next up we have this history of his battles against Shanks but that was in the past and we don't know how much stronger Shanks has gotten since then. I mean if Shanks received a scar from Teach, before Teach even had a devil fruit, Shanks couldn't have been that strong or Yonkou status back then. Therefore its difficult to gage Mihawk's true strength because Shanks looks different now then he did in the past (bulky) and it appears to me that Shanks has gotten stronger over the years as opposed to the contrary of him getting weaker (losing an arm). Having said that we are putting Mihawk with all these question marks against a guy who has clearly demonstrated his power by defeating Aokij an admiral, by annihilating the second in command of the WB, by making Teach and his entire crew run with their tails between their legs, and on top of all that inflicting some serious damage to WB himself.
> 
> Akainu wins until Mihawk shows us something other than a glorified title and tales of his battles against Shanks.



This is a great post. And I've never thought of it that way actually, in respect to Shanks' past battles being indicators that losing his arm actually made him stronger. If pre-DF Teach was able to scratch him, he obviously wasn't that strong at the time. Around the same time apparently, he and Mihawk were having their duels. However, after he lost his arm, something just may have made him consider training like hell and becoming magnitudes stronger than he was before, which would make sense to put him above Mihawk, the guy who seemingly never fights anything but fodder (Krieg's crew).


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 31, 2014)

In the end it doesn't matter what some of you trolls/deniers think. In Oda's mind it's clear that Mihawk > Akainu

3d2y special showed that Akainu needed to be saved by Mihawk

The fact that Oda didn't challenge this decision makes it clear that he supports this portrayal


----------



## Canute87 (Aug 31, 2014)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> In the end it doesn't matter what some of you trolls/deniers think. In Oda's mind it's clear that Mihawk > Akainu
> 
> 3d2y special showed that Akainu needed to be saved by Mihawk



Using anime as reference. 



> *The fact that Oda didn't challenge this decision makes it clear that he supports this portrayal*



Or maybe oda just isn't obsessed over it like us to even care to challenge the portrayal.

They are all on the same level so what does it matter for oda to change anything? to satisfy fanboys?


----------



## Shinthia (Aug 31, 2014)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> 3d2y special showed that Akainu needed to be saved by Mihawk


firstofall ANIME
just like WB needed to be saved by Marco & Jozu .wow


----------



## Imagine (Aug 31, 2014)

Akainu extreme diff.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 31, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Using anime as reference.


Yeah, if we did go off the anime, Blackbeard was capable of gaining an edge over Whitebeard. 


Canute87 said:


> Or maybe oda just isn't obsessed over it like us to even care to challenge the portrayal.
> 
> They are all on the same level so what does it matter for oda to change anything? to satisfy fanboys?


Canute solos, as usual.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 31, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> firstofall ANIME
> just like* WB needed to be saved by Marco & Jozu .*wow



that was also in the manga


----------



## TheWiggian (Aug 31, 2014)

Roo said:


> Pre-Gura Teach > Mihawk confirmed.
> 
> Can't deny the battle scars.



Mihawk>=Shanks>>Dying WB>>>stomp>>>pre Gura Teach. Simple as that.


----------



## Amol (Aug 31, 2014)

Luffy is stronger than an Admiral and a Legend confirmed


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 31, 2014)

Amol said:


> Luffy is stronger than an Admiral and a Legend confirmed



Luffy didn't really beat Bundy...the spikes actually did far more damage then red hawk. Luffy literally ran away after he landed a decent hit.

The only people who conclusively defeated Bundy in this special were
1) Mihawk: Bundy was ready to fight Akainu, but as soon as he saw Mihawk he shat his pants and gave up

2) CP0 Aizen: 1 shigan and he lay there like a chump, despite being ready to fight Garp and Sengoku just moments earlier


----------



## Lycka (Aug 31, 2014)

3d2y


Supervised by Oda himself,



Clearly showed Mihawk is superior to Akainu.


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 31, 2014)

The only thing Oda did was to draw World,nothing else.


----------



## Suit (Aug 31, 2014)

"No Sakazuki! Domo Yamate!"


----------



## Gilgamesh (Aug 31, 2014)

mihawk is the 2nd worst character in one piece and has the worst fanbase in the history of mankind


----------



## trance (Aug 31, 2014)

^I'm curious as to who the worst is.


----------



## Jellal Fernandes (Aug 31, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> ^I'm curious as to who the worst is.



Vista


----------



## Canute87 (Aug 31, 2014)

Not Shanks so who cares.


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 31, 2014)

_Why do people say Akainu needed to be saved ? I mean even going by what the special showed, there's not a single frame that hints towards that. We don't see a worried Akainu or hear him saying that it would be difficult to deal with the cannonball._


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 31, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Not Shanks so who cares.


Character-wise, no. Fanbase is another story...


----------



## Ruse (Aug 31, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Why do people say Akainu needed to be saved ? I mean even going by what the special showed, there's not a single frame that hints towards that. We don't see a worried Akainu or hear him saying that it would be difficult to deal with the cannonball._



Don't read too much into it just a few tards trying to start shit cause they have nothing better to do.


----------



## convict (Sep 1, 2014)

Akainu didn't need saving. The animators just made Mihawk issue the attack for pure fanservice and likely advertisement of the movie. He really didn't need to be in that movie.



Gilgamesh said:


> *mihawk is the 2nd worst character* in one piece and *has the worst fanbase* in the history of mankind



I am guessing there is a distinct causal relationship between bolded opinion 1 and bolded opinion 2.


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 1, 2014)

Luffy's main oppenents are always stronger than Zoro's.
Akainu is Luffy's opponent.
Mihawk is Zoro's opponent. 
You can do the rest.
Even Extravlad said Akainu>Mihawk. Give it up Zoro boys.


----------



## barreltheif (Sep 1, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> *Luffy's main oppenents are always stronger than Zoro's.
> Akainu is Luffy's opponent.*
> Mihawk is Zoro's opponent.
> You can do the rest.
> Even Extravlad said Akainu>Mihawk. Give it up Zoro boys.




Pretty sure Pica is stronger than Arlong.


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 1, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Pretty sure Pica is stronger than Arlong.



I'm not pretty sure, but i AM sure that
Croc>Mr.1
Moria>Ryuuma
Arlong>Hatchi
Lucci>Kaku

Edit: Woops, looks like i made this confusing rofl, the "i'm not pretty sure" isn't directed towards Pica>Arlong.


----------



## convict (Sep 1, 2014)

^What on Earth do you mean that you are not sure Pica is stronger than Arlong?

And you missed his point. His point is that we do not know if Zoro will face Mihawk before or in the same arc Luffy faces Akainu. Neither is 100% confirmed to be their last opponent. They both will be amongst the latter opponents of the series but your argument doesn't apply to a span of multiple arcs. If Luffy faced Akainu and Zoro faced Mihawk in the same arc then sure you may be right. But we don't know that it will play out like that.


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

convict said:


> His point is that we do not know if Zoro will face Mihawk before or in the same arc Luffy faces Akainu. Neither is 100% confirmed to be their last opponent. They both will be amongst the latter opponents of the series but your argument doesn't apply to a span of multiple arcs. If Luffy faced Akainu and Zoro faced Mihawk in the same arc then sure you may be right. But we don't know that it will play out like that.




I cant see Luffy vs Akainu happening anytime b4 the final war. So, even if the warlord system still exist (which is very unlikely because Fuji's ambition & Fuji himself is fit to be Zoro's opponent at final war) at best, Mihawk will be defeated by Zoro in the same arc Luffy beats Akainu.

So, in both feats & future plot importance Akainu should always get the benefit of doubt over Mihawk


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 1, 2014)

convict said:


> ^What on Earth do you mean that you are not sure Pica is stronger than Arlong?
> 
> And you missed his point. His point is that we do not know if Zoro will face Mihawk before or in the same arc Luffy faces Akainu. Neither is 100% confirmed to be their last opponent. They both will be amongst the latter opponents of the series but your argument doesn't apply to a span of multiple arcs. If Luffy faced Akainu and Zoro faced Mihawk in the same arc then sure you may be right. But we don't know that it will play out like that.



The " i'm not pretty sure" wasn't directed towards Pica>Arlong. And obviously i meant the same arc opponents, i even listed the opponents from the same arc.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> So, in both feats & future plot importance Akainu should always get the benefit of doubt over Mihawk


Screw fighting the WSM and tanking island splitting force, who needs it when you're Zoro's final opponent.
**


----------



## Nox (Sep 1, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Pretty sure Pica is stronger than Arlong.



...........and Enel is stronger than Daz Bones. 
The point is that to this day enemies that these two have faced in their respective arcs are usually different in terms of power. Mihawk is widely perceived to be Zoro's final challenge as is Akainu to Luffy.


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Screw fighting the WSM and tanking island splitting force, who needs it when you're Zoro's final opponent.
> **



when there is Zolo ,your argument is invalid


----------



## Extravlad (Sep 1, 2014)

> and has the worst fanbase in the history of mankind


Shanks fans.
Dragon fans.
Law fans.
Sabo fans.


----------



## convict (Sep 1, 2014)

> I cant see Luffy vs Akainu happening anytime b4 the final war. So, even if the warlord system still exist (which is very unlikely because Fuji's ambition & Fuji himself is fit to be Zoro's opponent at final war) at best, Mihawk will be defeated by Zoro in the same arc Luffy beats Akainu.



You can't but I sure can. You are essentially claiming Akainu = Final villain and therefore he has to be stronger than Mihawk despite how contested and debatable that statement is.



> The " i'm not pretty sure" wasn't directed towards Pica>Arlong. And *obviously i meant the same arc opponents*, i even listed the opponents from the same arc.



It isn't confirmed they will be the same arc opponents. This shouldn't be so hard to get.



> he point is that to this day enemies that these two have faced in their respective arcs are usually different in terms of power. *Mihawk is widely perceived to be Zoro's final challenge as is Akainu to Luffy*.



Teach is most widely perceived to be Luffy's final challenge. In Mihawk's case while he is perceived to be Zoro's final challenge, that is still highly debatable seeing their master/student relationship. Perhaps he ends up taking a Shanks role. We don't know. All I know is the 'Akainu = Luffy's opponent and Mihawk = Zoro's opponent so automatically Akainu > Mihawk' argument is asinine.


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 1, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> The " i'm not pretty sure" wasn't directed towards Pica>Arlong. And obviously i meant the same arc opponents, i even listed the opponents from the same arc.


Akainu won't be Luffy's final opponent unless he gets a huge upgrade(which is highly unlikely considering he is already past his prime), since admirals are portrayed to be relatively close in power, and Oda is building up a Zoro vs Fujitora in the future(they clashed 2 times already for a reason), so he will fight an admiral at some point when his end of goal is Mihawk. So for your theory to be true, you must also take into consideration the fact that Luffy's final opponent won't be someone like Blackbeard(who has much more potential) or someone else(in the gorosei?)


----------



## barreltheif (Sep 1, 2014)

DxM said:


> ...........and Enel is stronger than Daz Bones.
> The point is that to this day enemies that these two have faced in their respective arcs are usually different in terms of power. Mihawk is widely perceived to be Zoro's final challenge as is Akainu to Luffy.




His argument was:
(1) Mihawk is Zoro's opponent.
(2) Akainu is Luffy's opponent.
(3) Luffy's (main) opponents are all stronger than Zoro's opponents.
Therefore, Akainu is stronger than Mihawk.

This was literally exactly what he said. I then provided a counterexample to (3).

He later changed the argument to:
(1) Mihawk is Zoro's final opponent.
(2) Akainu is Luffy's final opponent.
(3) Luffy and Zoro will fight their final opponents in the same arc. (I take it this was implied.)
(4) Luffy's main opponent in an arc is always stronger than Zoro's main opponent in that arc.
Therefore, Akainu is stronger than Mihawk.

I take it this was his argument. This is a somewhat better argument, but (2) is extremely doubtful. Luffy's final opponent will be on par with prime WB and Roger. Akainu wasn't even as strong as old WB.


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

convict said:


> You can't but I sure can.
> 
> You are essentially claiming Akainu = Final villain and therefore he has to be stronger than Mihawk despite how contested and debatable that statement is.


how ? atm, Its obviously between Akainu & BB . right ?
But, a final war cant start unless Luffy find one piece.

also, thats not the real reason. Akainu has way better feat than Mihawk. Thats the main reason why i think Akainu > Mihawk. But, without the hype of being Zoro's opponent Mihawk doent have much to go on atm. and Akainu even surpass or at least equal that hype.


----------



## convict (Sep 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> how ? atm, Its obviously between Akainu & BB . right ?
> But, a final war cant start unless Luffy find one piece.



BB doesn't even have to be taken out before that either. Heck Luffy's encounter with Akainu can happen before the final war. It is not set in stone who he faces from the World Government's forces. He can have multiple opponents. 



> also, thats not the real reason. Akainu has way better feat than Mihawk.


I never had contention with this statement.



> But, without the hype of being Zoro's opponent Mihawk doent have much to go on atm. and Akainu even surpass or at least equal that hype.



He has that whole WSS, rival of Shanks etc to go on but I know how much venom and hatred such talk engenders amongst this place and it has been beaten to death so I won't delve on it.

As of now it is speculation is my point. Your feats argument is indeed strong considering Mihawk is lacking in the feats department, but this future importance stuff is something I completely disagree with.


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## Kaiser (Sep 1, 2014)

What we know is that Mihawk said becoming pirate king is harder than surpassing him. What we know as well is that none of the yonkous are pirate king level(only on their way through), who are generally considered equal if not stronger than admirals. Not to mention, Chinjao also said pirate king level is above admirals and yonkous, so pirate King level > Mihawk/Yonkou/Admirals(Akainu included), so it would make sense that Luffy's pirate king level final opponent(Teach) would be stronger than Zoro's(Mihawk)

That aside, Rayleigh stated that in his prime he could not only defeat Kizaru(rated close to Akainu), but his back ups as well as save the strawhats, so Prime Rayleigh > Kizaru/Akainu (around high difficulty give or take), and we know Zoro will surpass Prime Rayleigh 

Not to mention, Prime Whitebeard was the only one who could fight Roger as an equal, so Prime Whitebeard > Prime Rayleigh(high difficulty give or take), which implies Prime Whitebeard could beat Akainu at around mid difficulty

Roger was Prime Whitebeard equal give or take(i think he was slightly stronger), so should also be capable to mid diff Akainu at most

Teach is destinated to surpass Prime Whitebeard/Roger and Luffy is supposed to surpass even that, so Teach in his prime may be capable to low diff Akainu(same goes for Luffy). So much for being a final opponent. Like i've said unless Akainu gets a huge upgrade, he is never going to be Luffy's final opponent


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## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

convict said:


> BB doesn't even have to be taken out before that either. Heck Luffy's encounter with Akainu can happen before the final war. It is not set in stone who he faces from the World Government's forces. He can have multiple opponents.


we r talking about which is more likely to happen considering all the info we have so far. Of course there r thousands of possibility like Shanks being evil and ended up being the main villain is also not impossible .Hell Mihawk could lose his title in the next chapter. Its not impossible. But, is it likely ? No way.  but Akainu being the final opponent of PK Luffy at final war makes sense more than any other scenario.







> I never had contention with this statement.
> 
> 
> He has that whole WSS, rival of Shanks etc to go on but I know how much venom and hatred such talk engenders amongst this place and it has been beaten to death so I won't delve on it.
> ...



cool


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## trance (Sep 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Akainu has way better feat than Mihawk.



He also has way better feats than Shanks. Doesn't automatically mean Shanks is inferior to him.


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## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> He also has *way better feats than Shanks*. Doesn't automatically mean Shanks is inferior to him.



Shanks clashed with WB equally just like Akainu but their clash split  the heavens in two. In a head to head situation , Akainu did not even try to attack Shanks (i know it would be stupid but thats true). Shanks even deal with another Yonkou just b4 arriving at MF. Shanks words were enough to earn Sengoku's approval to stop the war.

So, no i wount say Akainu has WAY better feats than Shanks.


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## trance (Sep 1, 2014)

Subjective is subjective.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 1, 2014)

Blake said:


> Akainu won't be Luffy's final opponent unless he gets a huge upgrade(which is highly unlikely considering he is already past his prime), since admirals are portrayed to be relatively close in power, and Oda is building up a Zoro vs Fujitora in the future(they clashed 2 times already for a reason), so he will fight an admiral at some point when his end of goal is Mihawk. So for your theory to be true, you must also take into consideration the fact that Luffy's final opponent won't be someone like Blackbeard(who has much more potential) or someone else(in the gorosei?)




What suggests that Akainu is past his prime? What suggests that Akainu won't stop getting stronger? If you're going to say Akainu is old then you have to keep in mind that BB isn't exactly young either. And tbh, i doun't think Akainu is turning weaker anytime soon. There probably won't be a timeskip that turns Akainu into Garp/Ray/WB age.What shows that Luffy will fight Akainu the same time Zoro fights Fuji? The problem with this kind of argument is that we don't know enough about the characters. But using the info we currently have, Akainu wins. Mihawk's feats are extremely poor compared to Akainu. The only things keeping Mihawk in this battle is his hype being the WSS and Zoro's goal. Akainu's hype is just as good being the strongest marine and Fleet Admiral. Going with feats, Akainu low diffs. Going by hype, it could go either way.


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## convict (Sep 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> we r talking about which is more likely to happen considering all the info we have so far. Of course there r thousands of possibility like Shanks being evil and ended up being the main villain is also not impossible .Hell Mihawk could lose his title in the next chapter. Its not impossible. But, is it likely ? No way.  but Akainu being the final opponent of PK Luffy at final war makes sense more than any other scenario.



If we are being totally honest I don't think it is remotely likely that Akainu is Luffy's last individual battle. I don't even see it as 1% likely. Akainu's impressive performance indicates he is a monster obviously, but I can't see someone who already lost to a withered and handicapped version of Whitebeard giving EoS Luffy the fight of the manga. It has got to be Teach. Teach is going to be the final individual slog fest. In my opinion Akainu will be handled before that. 

And now this is my personal interpretation: After the Teach battle Luffy will be the undoubted strongest in the world and either that would be the last battle of the series or he will display his individual superiority by engaging in a numerically disadvantaged struggle against the government. And Akainu won't be amongst that platoon of warriors challenging Luffy at the end because he is obviously going to have a gruesome and lengthy fight with Luffy which Oda will do justice. And I can't see him doing justice to that fight if Luffy is already in his prime and noticeably stronger than Akainu. I see Luffy being the underdog when he faces and defeats Akainu.


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## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Subjective is subjective.



and Starkiller is Batman 



convict said:


> If we are being totally honest I don't think it is remotely likely that Akainu is Luffy's last individual battle. I don't even see it as 1% likely. Akainu's impressive performance indicates he is a monster obviously, but I can't see someone who already lost to a withered and handicapped version of Whitebeard giving EoS Luffy the fight of the manga. It has got to be Teach. Teach is going to be the final individual slog fest. In my opinion Akainu will be handled before that.
> 
> And now this is my personal interpretation: After the Teach battle Luffy will be the undoubted strongest in the world and either that would be the last battle of the series or he will display his individual superiority by engaging in a numerically disadvantaged struggle against the government. And Akainu won't be amongst that platoon of warriors challenging Luffy at the end because he is obviously going to have a gruesome and lengthy fight with Luffy which Oda will do justice. And I can't see him doing justice to that fight if Luffy is already in his prime and noticeably stronger than Akainu. I see Luffy being the underdog when he faces and defeats Akainu.



What i understand from ur post is the main reason u think Akainu cant be Luffy's last opponent is because u think he is not strong enough.

But, we have a long time till EoS. Akainu will most probably improve just like BB.

I think everyone from Mid Gen. improved through time skip . Cause an Old WB being stronger than mid Gen's strongest fighter in their prime would be a big fuck u to mid generation.


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## convict (Sep 1, 2014)

Actually the main reason is BB being the complete opposite reflection of Luffy in terms of ideals and dreams, having circumvented One Piece Universe logic, and having the strongest potential in the series. Akainu is a 55 year old Fleet Admiral who was driven for his entire career. He is well into his prime. He won't get significantly stronger than what his willpower has already achieved for him after 50+ years if at all.

No, the mid generation has quantity over the old generation but lacks the absolute cream of the crop like Roger and Whitebeard. It shouldn't be too hard to stomach that there were a couple of individuals who are just that damn good. It doesn't have to reflect the generation as it isn't like the mid generation has a dearth of top tiers or anything.


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## Extravlad (Sep 1, 2014)

> Shanks clashed with WB equally just like Akainu but their clash split the heavens in two. In a head to head situation , Akainu did not even try to attack Shanks (i know it would be stupid but thats true). Shanks even deal with another Yonkou just b4 arriving at MF. Shanks words were enough to earn Sengoku's approval to stop the war.


Shanks clashed with Whitebeard but WB didn't even use his DF.
He did against Akainu and it was still even.

Akainu has WAY better feats than Shanks like stopping WB's gura gura bisento with one foot.


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## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

convict said:


> Actually the main reason is BB being the complete opposite reflection of Luffy in terms of ideals and dreams, having circumvented One Piece Universe logic, and having the strongest potential in the series. Akainu is a 55 year old Fleet Admiral who was driven for his entire career. He is well into his prime. He won't get significantly stronger than what his willpower has already achieved for him after 50+ years if at all.
> 
> No, the mid generation has quantity over the old generation but lacks the absolute cream of the crop like Roger and Whitebeard. It shouldn't be too hard to stomach that there were a couple of individuals who are just that damn good. It doesn't have to reflect the generation as it isn't like the mid generation has a dearth of top tiers or anything.



yes, Akainu wount grow as much as BB . But, he does not need to be. MF Akainu  was a lot lot stronger than BB. So, it should evens things out a bit.


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## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

convict said:


> No, the mid generation has quantity over the old generation but lacks the absolute cream of the crop like Roger and Whitebeard. It shouldn't be too hard to stomach that there were a couple of individuals who are just that damn good. It doesn't have to reflect the generation as it isn't like the mid generation has a dearth of top tiers or anything.



we dont know how many Top Tier Old Gen had so we cant be sure atm. WB,Roger,Shiki,Garp,Sengoku,Kong,Ray . Thats all the name we know and all of them r Top Tiers. Who knows how many names will pop up in future.


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## Kaiser (Sep 1, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> What suggests that Akainu is past his prime? What suggests that Akainu won't stop getting stronger? If you're going to say Akainu is old then you have to keep in mind that BB isn't exactly young either. And tbh, i doun't think Akainu is turning weaker anytime soon. There probably won't be a timeskip that turns Akainu into Garp/Ray/WB age.What shows that Luffy will fight Akainu the same time Zoro fights Fuji? The problem with this kind of argument is that we don't know enough about the characters. But using the info we currently have, Akainu wins. Mihawk's feats are extremely poor compared to Akainu. The only things keeping Mihawk in this battle is his hype being the WSS and Zoro's goal. Akainu's hype is just as good being the strongest marine and Fleet Admiral. Going with feats, Akainu low diffs. Going by hype, it could go either way.


I don't object the possibility of Akainu getting stronger, but what i meant was that at the current moment, i don't see him strong enough for an end of serie opponent for Luffy. However, i find the possibility of him getting stronger unlikely since i think he is past his prime and won't get a lot stronger because he is old like you've said(55yo), has his magma devil fruit at the very least since decades ago and showed complete mastery over it. On the other side, Teach while not young is still younger than Akainu(past 40), got a huge upgrade firstly with the yami yami no mi, plus the gura gura no mi during the war that he couldn't control well 2 years before(so has much more possibilities to continue to develop). He is destinated to surpass even Whitebeard usage of the fruit that is supposed to give you power to destroy the world and has also the strongest logia DF. His potential is clearly enormous and on a total different level than Akainu's

You're the one saying Akainu will be Luffy's final opponent, so Zoro will have to fight Fujitora either at the same time as Luffy's fight against Akainu or before. And if it happens before, it could mean Zoro surpassed Luffy considering admirals are supposed to be close in power, so at the absolute most, it could happen around the same moment

And i won't say someone who has island level+ destructive capacity with a basic swing has no comparable feats. He arguably had the second greatest destructive capacity feat in the war after Whitebeard


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## convict (Sep 1, 2014)

> we dont know how many Top Tier Old Gen had so we cant be sure atm. WB,Roger,Shiki,Garp,Sengoku,Kong,Ray . Thats all the name we know and all of them r Top Tiers. Who knows how many names will pop up in future.



We know that since Roger died it became the great era of piracy with more pirates than ever before so the seas probably weren't as crowded back then.


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## trance (Sep 1, 2014)

> And i won't say someone who has island level+ destructive capacity with a basic swing



Cutting =/= destroying. The latter requires considerably more energy than the former. Besides, that was a small city level feat from Mihawk.


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## Extravlad (Sep 1, 2014)

The truth is that there was probably a few pirates as strong as the Yonko at the time.
But since WB/Roger were so strong they couldn't shine and no one gave a shits about them.

If Shanks/Kaido/BM were in their prime during Roger's era they would just be silver medalists


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## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

convict said:


> We know that since Roger died it became the great era of piracy with more pirates than ever before so the seas probably weren't as crowded back then.



I think that increases the quantity of fodder pirates not top tier. 
Just think about it Sengoku cant be the only Admiral on that time. Shiki's first mate could have been a top tier too. What about Roger's 3rd strongest ? Who was Rogers toughest challenge for PK title ?Is Big Mom & Kaido from mid gen or old gen ? we have too many unknowns to claim that mid gen has more top tiers than old gen atm.


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## convict (Sep 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> I think that increases the quantity of fodder pirates not top tier.
> Just think about it Sengoku cant be the only Admiral on that time. Shiki's first mate could have been a top tier too. What about Roger's 3rd strongest ? Who was Rogers toughest challenge for PK title ?Is Big Mom & Kaido from mid gen or old gen ? we have too many unknowns to claim that mid gen has more top tiers than old gen atm.



It increases the overall number of pirates so with that in mind it is more likely for there to be more top tiers from a larger sample. We don't even know if the Yonkou and their 1st/2nd mates are the only top tiers. Heck I am quite sure that they aren't. And then you have other people like Dragon and Sabo going around who are basically pirates except with the specific agenda to topple the government, and then we have Mihawk. Aokiji is galavanting around doing his thing as well.


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## monkey d ace (Sep 1, 2014)

Blake said:


> What we know is that Mihawk said becoming pirate king is harder than surpassing him. What we know as well is that none of the yonkous are pirate king level(only on their way through), who are generally considered equal if not stronger than admirals. Not to mention, Chinjao also said pirate king level is above admirals and yonkous, so pirate King level > Mihawk/Yonkou/Admirals(Akainu included), so it would make sense that Luffy's pirate king level final opponent(Teach) would be stronger than Zoro's(Mihawk)
> 
> That aside, Rayleigh stated that in his prime he could not only defeat Kizaru(rated close to Akainu), but his back ups as well as save the strawhats, so Prime Rayleigh > Kizaru/Akainu (around high difficulty give or take), and we know Zoro will surpass Prime Rayleigh
> 
> ...


is there anything that suggest that? i think akainu's chance of being the FO is better than BB's cause of WB's statement at MF, he says that the final war against the world(WG) will happen after someone finds one piece. so luffy will beat BB to obtain one piece(knows about the void century), then declares war on the WG. and fights the FO then and there. it's most likely akainu, but since it's as u said, akainu is not near prime WB level, so it's one of 3 options.
-akainu will get a huge upgrade.(don't really see it)
-luffy will reach prime WB/roger in an epilogue, not in the main story, so the FO(akainu) doesn't have to be prime WB/roger level.(i can see it)
-the FO is one of the gorousei, who is/near PK level.(not very likely, but could happen)


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## Kaiser (Sep 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Cutting =/= destroying. The latter requires considerably more energy than the former. Besides, that was a small city level feat from Mihawk.


Well i'm not really good in rating, but i said island level+ because i remember that the first time Kuzan used ice age he said it would cover 3 or 4 islands if i remember correctly and it's the same move he used to freeze the tsunami that Mihawk cut



monkey d ace said:


> is there anything that suggest that? i think akainu's chance of being the FO is better than BB's cause of WB's statement at MF, he says that the final war against the world(WG) will happen after someone finds one piece. so luffy will beat BB to obtain one piece(knows about the void century), then declares war on the WG. and fights the FO then and there. it's most likely akainu, but since it's as u said, akainu is not near prime WB level, so it's one of 3 options.
> -akainu will get a huge upgrade.(don't really see it)
> -luffy will reach prime WB/roger in an epilogue, not in the main story, so the FO(akainu) doesn't have to be prime WB/roger level.(i can see it)
> -the FO is one of the gorousei, who is/near PK level.(not very likely, but could happen)


Well yes it was already foreshadowed by Shanks that Teach will surpass Whitebeard: 

Besides, he achieved his destructive fruit 2 years prior and it's obvious sooner or later he would reach a point of mastery of the fruit even above Whitebeard himself(it's for that reason he has the fruit in the first place). It's his destiny to surpass prime whitebeard and thus surpassing Roger himself

The Whitebeard statement while interesting has a lot of ambiguitie around it as well. All i know though is that currently i don't see Akainu as a strong enough opponent


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## monkey d ace (Sep 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> He also has way better feats than Shanks. Doesn't automatically mean Shanks is inferior to him.


the difference is, shanks portrayal was better than akainu's. he was put in a lot better positions. for example shanks clashed with a stronger version of WB, and it resulted in the sky splitting in half, akainu clashed with a weaker version of WB, and the clash wasn't given the same heavy effect like shanks clash was. so shanks clash was portrayed better. there's also the fact that oda made sure to portray a heavily wounded WB(basically dying) >= fresh akainu, while shanks got another heavy portrayal when he stopped the war, and forced everyone to oblige, when there was 4 top tiers who were relatively fresh. obviously it doesn't mean he could solo them now, but the point is it was very heavy portrayal which akainu didn't get.


Blake said:


> Well yes it was already foreshadowed by Shanks that Teach will surpass Whitebeard:
> 
> Besides, he achieved his destructive fruit 2 years prior and it's obvious sooner or later he would reach a point of mastery of the fruit even above Whitebeard himself(it's for that reason he has the fruit in the first place). It's his destiny to surpass prime whitebeard and thus surpassing Roger himself
> 
> The Whitebeard statement while interesting has a lot of ambiguitie around it as well. All i know though is that currently i don't see Akainu as a strong enough opponent


hmm, i think that  meant BB is aiming for WB's yonkou position, which was shown to be true afterwards! but don't really think shanks meant that he'll reach to the prime version of WB.
i'm pretty sure WB fully mastered his DF(and BB will too), which is why sengoku said, he has the power to destroy the world, but yeah, if the GGnM have the power to destroy the world when it's not fully mastered yet, then i can't imagine what could it do when fully mastered.
right now, akainu for certain isn't prime WB/roger level, but quite a lot of scenario's could be played out, and he could well be the FO.


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## Kaiser (Sep 1, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> hmm, i think that  meant BB is aiming for WB's yonkou position, which was shown to be true afterwards! but don't really think shanks meant that he'll reach to the prime version of WB.
> i'm pretty sure WB fully mastered his DF(and BB will too), which is why sengoku said, he has the power to destroy the world, but yeah, if the GGnM have the power to destroy the world when it's not fully mastered yet, then i can't imagine what could it do when fully mastered.
> right now, akainu for certain isn't prime WB/roger level, but quite a lot of scenario's could be played out, and he could well be the FO.


No, he meant take his position as the world strongest man. Yonkou is just a step Teach doesn't even care about that much. Notice that before saying Teach will take his place, he said he will be aiming at the top(yonkou). It's only eventually that he says Teach would have the necessary power to surpass even Whitebeard himself

And yeah i don't doubt WB had great mastery over his fruit, but i think he could only use it at full potential when he was younger(he didn't seem like a world destructor in marineford to me) and Teach replicated almost all his feats at that moment(only lacked accuracy) despite being a new user, so he has better room to improve and surpass WB's prime self especially when he also has the strongest logia df to boot(the yami yami no mi)


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 1, 2014)

If Whitebeard was a planet buster, I guess Elizabello's punch can take out a Yonko. Don't take everything so literally Blake. Sengoku was most likely referring to the after effects of Whitebeard's DF, the earthquakes and tsunamis, it's not like Whitebeard could split the planet in half if he ever felt like it.


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## Han Zolo (Sep 1, 2014)

Once again, Mihawk is likely the strongest one piece character. New special strongly supports this.

Akainu is prolly top 5, maybe top 3. He loses to the blacksword.


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## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

convict said:


> It increases the overall number of pirates so with that in mind it is more likely for there to be more top tiers from a larger sample. We don't even know if the Yonkou and their 1st/2nd mates are the only top tiers. Heck I am quite sure that they aren't. And then you have other people like Dragon and Sabo going around who are basically pirates except with the specific agenda to topple the government, and then we have Mihawk. Aokiji is galavanting around doing his thing as well.



my point exactly. We dont even fully know how many top tiers in the mid gen even though we r living through it. How can we possibly know how many top tiers were present on that time ? We cant compare the number cause the number of unknown top tiers (in both gen) could be 0 to anything.


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## Orca (Sep 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> yes, Akainu wount grow as much as BB . But, he does not need to be. MF Akainu  was a lot lot stronger than BB. So, it should evens things out a bit.



There is almost zero chance of Akainu being as strong EoS BB. It definitely doesn't even out things if Akainu was stronger at MF. 

Akainu being final villain doesn't make sense from story wise or strength wise.


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## Extravlad (Sep 1, 2014)

> Akainu being final villain doesn't make sense from story wise or strength wise.


Actually it does if you consider that BB will most likely be defeated by Luffy before he becomes PK.
And Sakazuki will always have a stronger army than BB's crew so it's still more of a challenge.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 1, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Actually it does if you consider that BB will most likely be defeated by Luffy before he becomes PK.
> And Sakazuki will always have a stronger army than BB's crew so it's still more of a challenge.


I agree with this. Luffy and Blackbeard fighting each other in order to get to Raftel, then going on to fight Akainu after the One Piece is found and the world war happens makes the most sense to me, I don't see how Blackbeard can be used after that. We also don't even know how strong Blackbeard will be at the EoS; he hasn't been shown to be able to use Haki (might have slight KH if that's what is needed to sense Haki, but I doubt he has BH or HH), and he has to master two DFs, he wasn't even skilled enough when had his first one.


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## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

Luffee said:


> There is almost zero chance of Akainu being as strong EoS BB. It definitely doesn't even out things if Akainu was stronger at MF.
> 
> Akainu being final villain doesn't make sense from story wise or strength wise.



A marine FA fighting in final war makes sense to me. i already explained my reasoning with convict . so, i am not gonna do that again.


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## Orca (Sep 1, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Actually it does if you consider that BB will most likely be defeated by Luffy before he becomes PK.
> And Sakazuki will always have a stronger army than BB's crew so it's still more of a challenge.



Except BB doesn't have to be defeated at Raftel. I'll post a quote from  Coruscation who I think explains incredibly how the final war scenario can play out.

And you'd be lying to yourself if you think Luffy is gonna fight Akainu +his army. One piece has always been for the most part a series of one on one fights. And a guy with multiple DFs is a lot more challenging. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be armies involved as the final war will almost encompass the entire world. But the final war doesn't necessarily have to be just against BB pirates. It could be BB pirTes vs WG vs Lffy and allies. But what we do know is that Luffy vs final villain will be 1 on 1.


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> Think back to what happened back those 800 years ago (what we know of it). There was an ancient kingdom with supposed great power and majesty. The organization that came to be known as the World Government went to war with it, defeated it and put a lid on absolutely everything related to it, punishing any sort of investigation by death. Why did they do this? Because they deemed it dangerous. And we already know through Rayleigh's words that they were RIGHT to deem it dangerous. We know it due to the Ancient Weapons too. So if we uncork the lid and go to war with the WG - what happens to the "dangerous" part? We haven't actually solved anything, we've merely returned the world to its state before the WG lockdown. A state that quite clearly is to be considered rather ambiguous in its nature, not some perfect era of puppies and rainbows.
> 
> Look at the overall conflict here. WG seals stuff away because it's dangerous, but in doing so also seals away many wondrous things, and to keep it sealed away they do a lot of bad stuff, like on Ohara. That's why we'll ultimately unseal the lock. But doing that we also unleash the DANGER that they feared so much, a danger which is very, very real. We don't actually solve the conflict unless we do something about that danger. The true conflict of the series isn't WG vs Luffy. Beating the WG isn't winning. If you beat the WG without dealing with the terrible danger they originally feared that only proves them right - proves the world is not ready. This is the risk Rayleigh himself hinted at when he said that the SHs may decide not to reveal the secrets they find on Raftel, and that the Oharan scientists as well as they themselves (Roger pirates) may have been too hasty in wanting those secrets to be returned to the world.
> 
> ...








Issho D Tea said:


> I agree with this. Luffy and Blackbeard fighting each other in order to get to Raftel, then going on to fight Akainu after the One Piece is found and the world war happens makes the most sense to me, I don't see how Blackbeard can be used after that. We also don't even know how strong Blackbeard will be at the EoS; he hasn't been shown to be able to use Haki (might have slight KH if that's what is needed to sense Haki, but I doubt he has BH or HH), and he has to master two DFs, he wasn't even skilled enough when had his first one.



You honestly think BB wouldn't have mastery over his fruits when he fights Luffy?



Lionel Messi said:


> A marine FA fighting in final war makes sense to me. i already explained my reasoning with convict . so, i am not gonna do that again.



Akainu has minimal ties with the overall themes and story of one piece. He's just a representive of absolute justice. That's all there is to him. WG represents a far more complex concept that ties with will of D and fate. Which BB is obviously has a relation to. So what's more likely to be final villain? A guy who isn't even connected to the overall theme of one piece and is moderately powerful than his peers or a guy who has lots of connections to the overall theme of one piece and has multiple DFs which is unprecedented in op history?

As for how the war will play out, I think Corus did a lot better job explaining that in the quote above.


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## Canute87 (Sep 1, 2014)

I realize that when Mihawk fans can't use their petty WSS excuse they run to anime to try and prove a point.


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## Canute87 (Sep 1, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Actually it does if you consider that BB will most likely be defeated by Luffy before he becomes PK.
> And Sakazuki will always have a stronger army than BB's crew so it's still more of a challenge.



There's also the possibility of Blackbeard becoming Pirate King.


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## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Akainu has minimal ties with the overall themes and story of one piece. He's just a representive of absolute justice. That's all there is to him. WG represents a far more complex concept that ties with will of D and fate. Which BB is obviously has a relation to. So what's more likely to be final villain? A guy who isn't even connected to the overall theme of one piece and is moderately powerful than his peers or a guy who has lots of connections to the overall theme of one piece and has multiple DFs which is unprecedented in op history?
> 
> As for how the war will play out, I think Corus did a lot better job explaining that in the quote above.



Ok ok. i get it BB is super important.But, the prob is Final war cant start unless Luffy becomes PK by defeating BB. And who better to fight with Luffy at final war than Akainu ? Some unknown WG officer or a lots of fodder ? nah


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## Lycka (Sep 1, 2014)

Han Zolo said:


> Once again, Mihawk is likely the strongest one piece character. New special strongly supports this.
> 
> Akainu is prolly top 5, maybe top 3. He loses to the blacksword.



Honestly best answer.


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## Lycka (Sep 1, 2014)

And Akainu and or blackboard being final villan are both Highly UNLIKELY.


Odas not going to go down that predictable route, someone will show up who's more threatening than both.


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## Lycka (Sep 1, 2014)

Blake said:


> What we know is that Mihawk said becoming pirate king is harder than surpassing him. What we know as well is that none of the yonkous are pirate king level(only on their way through), who are generally considered equal if not stronger than admirals. Not to mention, Chinjao also said pirate king level is above admirals and yonkous, so pirate King level > Mihawk/Yonkou/Admirals(Akainu included), so it would make sense that Luffy's pirate king level final opponent(Teach) would be stronger than Zoro's(Mihawk)
> 
> That aside, Rayleigh stated that in his prime he could not only defeat Kizaru(rated close to Akainu), but his back ups as well as save the strawhats, so Prime Rayleigh > Kizaru/Akainu (around high difficulty give or take), and we know Zoro will surpass Prime Rayleigh
> 
> ...



Lovely. Post.


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## Mike S (Sep 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> .But, the prob is Final war cant start unless Luffy becomes PK by defeating BB.





Issho D Tea said:


> I agree with this. Luffy and Blackbeard fighting each other in order to get to Raftel, then going on to fight Akainu after the One Piece is found and the world war happens makes the most sense to me, I don't see how Blackbeard can be used after that.



I recommend taking a look at this thread - specifically post #23 by Corus. It opens your mind up to the many different scenarios that can play out on Raftel.


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## barreltheif (Sep 1, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> is there anything that suggest that? i think akainu's chance of being the FO is better than BB's cause of WB's statement at MF, he says that the final war against the world(WG) will happen after someone finds one piece. so luffy will beat BB to obtain one piece(knows about the void century), then declares war on the WG. and fights the FO then and there. it's most likely akainu, but since it's as u said, akainu is not near prime WB level, so it's one of 3 options.
> -akainu will get a huge upgrade.(don't really see it)
> -luffy will reach prime WB/roger in an epilogue, not in the main story, so the FO(akainu) doesn't have to be prime WB/roger level.(i can see it)
> -the FO is one of the gorousei, who is/near PK level.(not very likely, but could happen)




WB never said anything about a war against the WG. This is a fan myth.


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## convict (Sep 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> my point exactly. We dont even fully know how many top tiers in the mid gen even though we r living through it. How can we possibly know how many top tiers were present on that time ? We cant compare the number cause the number of unknown top tiers (in both gen) could be 0 to anything.



We don't. All we know is that there is far more competition in the mid gen and thus there is a higher likelihood for more overall top tiers even if the 2 very best of the old gen are the absolute cream of the crop.


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## Veltpunch (Sep 1, 2014)

I feel like we're sleeping on Mihawk a bit. His EoS hype is legit. There isn't anyone else in the manga that is looking as good for Zoro's EoS opponent as Mihawk. I'd say Sakazuki takes this with no less than very high difficulty. Sakazuki's own EoS hype is greater and earns him the benefit of a doubt over Zoro's best bet for EoS opponent. Not to mention Sakazuki has the best feats out of anyone currently alive in the manga and is probably the current WSM.


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## trance (Sep 1, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> the difference is, shanks portrayal was better than akainu's. he was put in a lot better positions. for example shanks clashed with a stronger version of WB, and it resulted in the sky splitting in half, akainu clashed with a weaker version of WB, and the clash wasn't given the same heavy effect like shanks clash was. so shanks clash was portrayed better. there's also the fact that oda made sure to portray a heavily wounded WB(basically dying) >= fresh akainu, while shanks got another heavy portrayal when he stopped the war, and forced everyone to oblige, when there was 4 top tiers who were relatively fresh. obviously it doesn't mean he could solo them now, but the point is it was very heavy portrayal which akainu didn't get.



You're a bit dense, aren't ya? 

This was *exactly* my point that feats don't mean everything. Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to type it.


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## Extravlad (Sep 1, 2014)

Shanks having a better portrayal than Akainu is a fanfiction.
Shanks clashed with WB but WB didn't even use his DF and he still went equal with him.
Sakazuki fought on par with WB at marineford, before WB had a heart attack, he stopped WB's attacks many times and wasn't dominated by the WSM.
Sakazuki's feat of blocking WB's gura gura bisento with his foot is better than Shanks's feat.

Shanks portrayal isn't better, the truth is that people WANT Shanks to be stronger because he is a popular character, Luffy's role model and all this stuff, so they consider him stronger forgetting that he was never hyped to be special amongst the Yonko unlike both WB and Kaido


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## BlackBearD (Sep 1, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Shanks having a better portrayal than Akainu is a fanfiction.
> Shanks clashed with WB but WB didn't even use his DF and he still went equal with him.
> Sakazuki fought on par with WB at marineford, before WB had a heart attack, he stopped WB's attacks many times and wasn't dominated by the WSM.
> Sakazuki's feat of blocking WB's gura gura bisento with his foot is better than Shanks's feat.
> ...


⁭⁭⁭⁭⁭⁭⁭this.


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## barreltheif (Sep 1, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Shanks having a better portrayal than Akainu is a fanfiction.
> Shanks clashed with WB but WB didn't even use his DF and he still went equal with him.
> Sakazuki fought on par with WB at marineford, before WB had a heart attack, he stopped WB's attacks many times and wasn't dominated by the WSM.
> Sakazuki's feat of blocking WB's gura gura bisento with his foot is better than Shanks's feat.
> ...




This is spot on. Mihawk and Akainu have more going for them than Shanks.


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## BlackBearD (Sep 1, 2014)

but I must say, when we see truly feats from shanks - I bet that will be hard as fuck to know whose the stronger.


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## Suit (Sep 1, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> This is spot on. Mihawk and Akainu have more going for them than Shanks.



Yes, like owning a portion of the New World and being so frighteningly powerful that it helps build a stalemate with the Strongest Creature in the World, despite the fact that they only have one arm. Oh wait, they don't. Shanks does. Don't let your hatred of a character with an actual personality cloud your judgment.

If Shanks had both his arms, he'd automatically be the strongest in the world, bar none.


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## Firo (Sep 1, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Shanks having a better portrayal than Akainu is a fanfiction.
> Shanks clashed with WB but WB didn't even use his DF and he still went equal with him.
> Sakazuki fought on par with WB at marineford, before WB had a heart attack, he stopped WB's attacks many times and wasn't dominated by the WSM.
> Sakazuki's feat of blocking WB's gura gura bisento with his foot is better than Shanks's feat.
> ...


         .


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## trance (Sep 1, 2014)

Roo said:


> Yes, like owning a portion of the New World and being so frighteningly powerful that it helps build a stalemate with the Strongest Creature in the World, despite the fact that they only have one arm. Oh wait, they don't. Shanks does. Don't let your hatred of a character with an actual personality cloud your judgment.
> 
> If Shanks had both his arms, he'd automatically be the strongest in the world, bar none.



Oda said Shanks didn't lose any strength when he lost his arm.


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## Ruse (Sep 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Oda said Shanks didn't lose any strength when he lost his arm.



You got the link for that statement?


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## trance (Sep 1, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> You got the link for that statement?



Sure.


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## Suit (Sep 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Oda said Shanks didn't lose any strength when he lost his arm.



You can't even make sense out of that statement when it's applied to fiction. It is blatantly impossible that one-arm Shanks = two-armed Shanks if everything else is held equal. It breaks suspension of disbelief heavily. It's like saying that, had Whitebeard lost one of his arms, he'd still be just as strong as he was when he had two arms. No one can make sense out of that. Especially with the way that everyone likes to say Shanks is a pure swordsman. A one-armed version of a swordsman will always lose to a two-armed version of the same exact swordsman. 

Oda's statement holds no water even if he actually said it; if an apple falls from my fruit basket, I would be entirely incorrect to say that "I lost no food" in the process.


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## Ruse (Sep 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Sure.



Would you be kind enough to share it?


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## convict (Sep 2, 2014)

Roo said:


> You can't even make sense out of that statement when it's applied to fiction. It is blatantly impossible that one-arm Shanks = two-armed Shanks if everything else is held equal. It breaks suspension of disbelief heavily. It's like saying that, had Whitebeard lost one of his arms, he'd still be just as strong as he was when he had two arms. No one can make sense out of that. Especially with the way that everyone likes to say Shanks is a pure swordsman. A one-armed version of a swordsman will always lose to a two-armed version of the same exact swordsman.
> 
> Oda's statement holds no water even if he actually said it; if an apple falls from my fruit basket, I would be entirely incorrect to say that "I lost no food" in the process.



I'm sure Oda just meant he didn't lose a noticeable amount of strength. He is still at that level. If I recall Oda even mentioned that Whitebeard is as strong as he used to be but that obviously wasn't the case. Even if he is a pure swordsman which is a strong theory, his sword seems to be tailored for usage with only one hand so he most likely didn't lose too much strength because the other arm may have had a more supportive role in his primary fighting style. He is definitely not 100% as strong as he used to be, Oda even used Mihawk to indicate that.


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## trance (Sep 2, 2014)

Roo said:


> You can't even make sense out of that statement when it's applied to fiction. It is blatantly impossible that one-arm Shanks = two-armed Shanks if everything else is held equal. It breaks suspension of disbelief heavily. It's like saying that, had Whitebeard lost one of his arms, he'd still be just as strong as he was when he had two arms. No one can make sense out of that. Especially with the way that everyone likes to say Shanks is a pure swordsman. A one-armed version of a swordsman will always lose to a two-armed version of the same exact swordsman.
> 
> Oda's statement holds no water even if he actually said it; if an apple falls from my fruit basket, I would be entirely incorrect to say that "I lost no food" in the process.



Well, my post wasn't exactly the most serious of posts, hence the "" I put at the end. 

It depends on exactly *how* Shanks fights. IMO, he lost the ability to wield a sword competently whilst retaining enough strength to the point where the decrease is miniscule or unnoticeable. Just my take on it.


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## Suit (Sep 2, 2014)

convict said:


> I'm sure Oda just meant he didn't lose a noticeable amount of strength. He is still at that level. If I recall Oda even mentioned that Whitebeard is as strong as he used to be but that obviously wasn't the case. Even if he is a pure swordsman which is a strong theory, his sword seems to be tailored for usage with only one hand so he most likely didn't lose too much strength because the other arm may have had a more supportive role in his primary fighting style. He is definitely not 100% as strong as he used to be, Oda even used Mihawk to indicate that.



Well, thank you for that. I was thinking someone was going to say something stupid to which I would have to reply with something along these lines. No matter what though, he lost ability by losing an arm. There's no arguing that. It's a lot of potential down the drain that he'll never see again. The fact he was still able to become an Emperor is extraordinary.


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## Marik Swift (Sep 2, 2014)

Blake said:


> What we know is that Mihawk said becoming pirate king is harder than surpassing him. What we know as well is that none of the yonkous are pirate king level(only on their way through), who are generally considered equal if not stronger than admirals. Not to mention, Chinjao also said pirate king level is above admirals and yonkous, so pirate King level > Mihawk/Yonkou/Admirals(Akainu included), so it would make sense that Luffy's pirate king level final opponent(Teach) would be stronger than Zoro's(Mihawk)
> 
> That aside, Rayleigh stated that in his prime he could not only defeat Kizaru(rated close to Akainu), but his back ups as well as save the strawhats, so Prime Rayleigh > Kizaru/Akainu (around high difficulty give or take), and we know Zoro will surpass Prime Rayleigh
> 
> ...



> Says EOS Teach & Luffy can low diff Akainu.

​​


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## Suit (Sep 2, 2014)

Marik Swift said:


> > Says EOS Teach & Luffy can low diff Akainu.
> 
> ​​



Well, outrageous as the claim may be, the logic is hard to argue. It is most certainly possible. Not every day that I say that about Blake's posts either.


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## trance (Sep 2, 2014)

Low diffing is what Doffy did to Sanji. 

I don't see EoS Luffy doing that to the strongest man in the Marines.


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## Shinthia (Sep 2, 2014)

>Has the best feat in the show & a strong contender for current WSM.
> gets low diff by EoS BB & Luffy


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## Shinthia (Sep 2, 2014)

convict said:


> We don't. All we know is that there is far more competition in the mid gen and thus there is a higher likelihood for more overall top tiers even if the 2 very best of the old gen are the absolute cream of the crop.



not necessarily.

Old generation was quality and all the people on that time became pirates on their own strong will. They were pirates who seeks freedom.Not because some dying old man's motivation or the greed to find the ultimate treasure. 

2 kinds of people were motiavted on that time 1)already grown man who never wanted to be a pirate b4 in his life and 2) Kids who will be part of worst generation at their prime 

Motivated kids who has potential like Smoker will be a top tier in future as a part of [Blocked Domain].And chances of those aimless grown man suddenly becoming top tier is almost non-existent imo.


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## Bansai (Sep 2, 2014)

Sakazuki winning with extreme diff.? No. He'll be pushed to high diff. at best.


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## monkey d ace (Sep 2, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> You're a bit dense, aren't ya?
> 
> This was *exactly* my point that feats don't mean everything. Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to type it.


that's kinda my line though, the reason i started my post with 'the difference is' is because u put the match-ups(shanks/mihawk v akainu) in the same boat. so my point was, while ur point is true, it doesn't work for mihawk like u implied to, since even by portrayal/hype akainu is the better one, while that's not the case in the other match-up with the examples i presented from the manga. i thought u'd get it, but oh well...


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## Vengeance (Sep 2, 2014)

Afaik the new 3D2Y special supervised by Oda has just proven that Mihawk > Marine HQ :ignoramus


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## Dunno (Sep 2, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> Afaik the new 3D2Y special supervised by Oda has just *proven* that Mihawk > Marine HQ :ignoramus



"Proven" is definitely too strong of a word. More like "maybe hinted at".


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## monkey d ace (Sep 2, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> Afaik the new 3D2Y special supervised by Oda has just proven that Mihawk > Marine HQ :ignoramus


the only thing oda had in that special is designing the character of burndy world.


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## Shinthia (Sep 2, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> Afaik the new 3D2Y special supervised by Oda has just proven that Mihawk > Marine HQ :ignoramus



"Mihawk" is definitely too strong of a word. More like "casual Mihawk"


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## RF (Sep 2, 2014)

What exactly did Mihawk do in the special that makes people think he's above Akainu?


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## Furinji Saiga (Sep 2, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> What exactly did Mihawk do in the special that makes people think he's above Akainu?



He cut the massive cannonball Burndy aimed at the marines. 

Some trolls see it as him saving Akainu, just ignore them. 

But the feat does look cool


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## Shinthia (Sep 2, 2014)

every time i see those 2 small jump of Mihawk  . it reminds me of this


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## Marik Swift (Sep 2, 2014)

Roo said:


> Well, outrageous as the claim may be, the logic is hard to argue. It is most certainly possible. Not every day that I say that about Blake's posts either.



Indeed. His argument is pretty legit. But this is the wonderful case where common sense comes into play.

This isn't Nardo. No top tier is going to get low diff no matter what argument anyone pull out of their ass.​


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## Luke (Sep 2, 2014)

Gin said:


> Sakazuki winning with extreme diff.? No. He'll be pushed to high diff. at best.



Agreed. 

I don't understand how people honestly think he'd give Akainu extreme diff. It just doesn't make sense.


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## Ruse (Sep 2, 2014)

Luke said:


> Agreed.
> 
> *I don't understand how people honestly think he'd give Akainu extreme diff. It just doesn't make sense.*



Because he's Zoro's EoS goal he _has_ to be able to give Akainu extreme diff even if the latter has way better portrayal/feats


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## Bohemian Knight (Sep 2, 2014)

Mihawk wins 3 fights between of varying degree between very-high and extreme. Akainu takes the other 7 of 10. This is going by Mihawk's portrayal and Akainu's feats.

I don't understand why people think that between fighters of a similar caliber, one will always win. At this level, these battles would be a chess match, the first move sets the tone and the player who is more opportunistic and strategic from then on wins. Neither of these two are going to simply overpower the other.

If you think Mihawk has no chance against Akainu, or verse-versa, you are dead wrong. Stop playing favorites and misconstruing facts or nobody will take you or your argument seriously.

Sakazuki-7
Mihawk-3


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## Gohara (Sep 2, 2014)

Pre time skip I would have said Mihawk wins with high to extremely high difficulty, but I assume that Akainu got stronger during the time skip, so I'll say he wins with high to extremely high difficulty at this point.

Would be a very interesting fight either way.


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## trance (Sep 2, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> that's kinda my line though, the reason i started my post with 'the difference is' is because u put the match-ups(shanks/mihawk v akainu) in the same boat. so my point was, while ur point is true, it doesn't work for mihawk like u implied to, since even by portrayal/hype akainu is the better one, while that's not the case in the other match-up with the examples i presented from the manga. i thought u'd get it, but oh well...



You're assuming that I think Mihawk, despite his lack of feats, is equal or stronger than Akainu. That's *not* what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying that even though he doesn't have the best feats in comparison to Akainu, he shouldn't automatically be placed below because of that reason alone.

Seriously. Was it that hard to figure out?


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## monkey d ace (Sep 2, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> You're assuming that I think Mihawk, despite his lack of feats, is equal or stronger than Akainu. That's *not* what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying that even though he doesn't have the best feats in comparison to Akainu, he shouldn't automatically be placed below because of that reason alone.
> 
> Seriously. Was it that hard to figure out?


don't quite agree, that reason alone should put akainu above him unless he(mihawk) has something to suggest otherwise, etc portrayal/hype, in which he doesn't.


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## Tballack (Sep 2, 2014)

As soon as I saw Mihawk jump off his boat after the cannon was fired, I said oh shit, here goes one for the Fanboys. While the feat is impressive, remember that we never actually saw the size of the Island that got destroyed by the cannon, but never the less, it was an Island. Now I stand corrected but didn't Hachan say that each mangrove in sabody was kind of like an island on its own, which makes sense since Sabody is an archipelago, kizaru decimated one with a single kick, so I don't think this feat should mean auto-win for mihawk in any fight. That said, we only tend to see flashes of mihawk looking cool and destroying things other top tier can, so we en't actually seen enough to decide who wins the fight. Each person bringing up a point, is neither wrong nor right.. Akainu is gonna be one of EoS Luffy's fight, so he has to be stronger but then Mihawk is EoS Zoro's final hurdle, and since M3 should be > Admirals EoS to win the war Whitebeard mentionded the Mihawk should be Stronger, these thoughts will cause us to keep arguing till Oda gives us more.


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## trance (Sep 3, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> don't quite agree, that reason alone should put akainu above him unless he(mihawk) has something to suggest otherwise, etc portrayal/hype, in which he doesn't.



Again, I'm not arguing against his lack of portrayal/hype puttinng him below Akainu. I'm against his lack of feats *solely* being enough reason to put him below Akainu. That's why I listed the example with Shanks, because, solely based on feats, he's below Akainu, to highlight this flaw.


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## Nox (Sep 3, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> His argument was:
> (1) Mihawk is Zoro's opponent.
> (2) Akainu is Luffy's opponent.
> (3) Luffy's (main) opponents are all stronger than Zoro's opponents.
> ...



I see what you mean.

@bold: Neither was the rest of the of the OP universe. Old WB without any handicap was heralded as the WSM. There is no shame in Akainu playing second fiddle to him. That said MF WB was not that much stronger than Akainu. After sustaining that wound his health was dropping considerably rapidly. He died with more holes than he was born with thanks to Sakazuki.

Don't know if it has been stated any where that Luffy's final villain will on the level of Prime WB / Rodger. If it was I must have missed it. Oda has hyped the older generation along side of young individuals who proceed them. BB, who is a prime candidate for getting to their level has so many question marks that surround him for me to out-rightly admit that he will be thier equals. We need another TS


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## Venom (Sep 3, 2014)

Akainu takes it Aokiji diff
I don't expect anything less from the WSS whether he has feats or not.


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## monkey d ace (Sep 3, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Again, I'm not arguing against his lack of portrayal/hype puttinng him below Akainu. I'm against his lack of feats *solely* being enough reason to put him below Akainu. That's why I listed the example with Shanks, because, solely based on feats, he's below Akainu, to highlight this flaw.


we're seeing this from different perspectives then, feats take top priority IMO, and if someone's feats contradict with his hype/portrayal. i'll just take it as he doesn't live up to his hype. ofc these feats needs to be legit, and not PIS-invoked for us to can solely to rely on them.


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## kidgogeta (Sep 3, 2014)

So much Mihawk underestimation.By hype Mihawk wins. I assume using hype is allowed because otherwise this thread wouldn't be 12 pages. Despite being one of the few fruitless top tiers, hes the e only active one who's never even been scratched on panel. Despite being logias all 3 admirals have had blood drawn from them in battle.


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## monkey d ace (Sep 3, 2014)

kidgogeta said:


> So much Mihawk underestimation.By hype Mihawk wins. I assume using hype is allowed because otherwise this thread wouldn't be 12 pages. Despite being one of the few fruitless top tiers, hes the e only active one who's never even been scratched on panel. Despite being logias all 3 admirals have had blood drawn from them in battle.


Dat reasoning!
hancock/doflamingo didn't receive a scratch aswell, while WB died so that means DD/hancock would stomp WB right? plus akainu's opponents in MF would godstomp mihawk's opponents so lolnope.


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## maupp (Sep 3, 2014)

It's a toss up but hype wise Mihawk is superior to Akainu.

The sole reason(or the biggest reason) many people are currently voting for Akainu is because they believe that he is Luffy final opponent therefore he is stronger than Mihawk. This logic actually makes sense and would be flawless if it was true. Akaninu is very unlikely to be Luffy final opponents.

For some reasons people always seem to forget about BB and all the build ups Oda is having for him. EoS BB will easily be above Akainu with all he has going on. Luffy is meant to surpass the old generation and be even stronger than Roger and to do that he has to face someone that can push him to those high and that's where 2 fruits BB comes in.

Oda didn't give BB 2 Overpowered fruit for him not to be the final opponent. He has the tools to be the Most powerful character that OPverse ever had even more powerfull than Prime WB and Roger. I think we can all agree that where Oda is taking his character and building him up to reach that level with him having 2 fruits(something unheard of), being a D, possessing and abnormal body and his 2 fruit consist of the strongest fruit + the most haxx fruit. There is no way this guy will be weaker than Akainu EoS.

Now with that said, I believe that Oda is building Luffy and BB to be the Roger and WB of this new era, top tier but stronger than the other crops of top tiers. Meaning they are strong enough to defeat the closest top tier to them high diff instead of extreme diff. Akainu would be in that bracket of normal top tier, not "abnormal" top tier like EoS Luffy and BB(Roger, WB and Garp in their Era).

So with that in mind, the idea and notion that Akainu is instant stronger than Mihawk because of him facing Luffy is already flawed.

Now here is something else that goes against Akainu in this debate against Mihawk. While Akainu might be Luffy opponent before his true final manga opponent in BB, Mihawk might end up being Zoro final opponent with Fuji being Zoro's Admiral. Meaning Zoro will have to grow stronger from him facing Admiral level opponent in Fuji to facing Mihawk his final opponent and manga goal.

With that there will be growth in SH including both Luffy and Zoro before fighting their final main battle of the series in BB and Mihawk respectively. With this reasoning one would easily understand why Mihawk is above Akainu.

When people stop making that mistake of assuming that Akainu is Luffy final opponent in the manga is when this debate will make much more sense for some. Akainu can't be stronger than EoS Teach, someone possessing 2 fruits including the strongest fruit.


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## Orca (Sep 3, 2014)

^The main reason people think Akainu is stronger is due to his portrayal and feats. Not that he's final villain. 

The final villain argument is only brought in when people bring in The "Mihawk is zoro's EOS opponent." Just like its possible that Akainu isn't FV, it's also possible that Mihawk isn't Zoro's final opponent either.


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## barreltheif (Sep 3, 2014)

*It is possible, but unlikely, that Mihawk won't be Zoro's final opponent.* Beating Mihawk is currently Zoro's ultimate goal and has been since the very beginning of the manga. If Mihawk isn't Zoro final opponent, it will be a plot twist.

*It is virtually certain that Akainu won't be Luffy's final opponent.* Beating Akainu certainly isn't Luffy ultimate goal. Akainu has never been remotely foreshadowed to be Luffy's final opponent. Akainu isn't strong enough: he's not even as strong as old WB, let alone prime WB or EoS Luffy.


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## Orca (Sep 3, 2014)

Mihawk not fighting Zoro would be a plot twist. Not him not being the final opponent. 

As for the likeliness of Mihawk being the final opponent, I find it as unlikely as Akainu being the FV. So it's a subjective matter really.


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## barreltheif (Sep 3, 2014)

You disagreeing doesn't make this subjective. Mihawk has been foreshadowed to be Zoro's final opponent. Beating him is currently Zoro's final goal. Akainu has not been foreshadowed to be Luffy's final opponent. Beating him is not currently Luffy's final goal.


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## Orca (Sep 3, 2014)

Let's not forget that Luffy's final goal is finding one piece .Yet we already know that there is a major event that's going to take place after our MC achieves his goal. So yeah, there is no such thing as Mihawk is foreshadowed to be the final opponent. All we know is that Zoro wants his title. When, how and where is upto speculation.

And beating Mihawk is zoro's personal ultimate goal  but zoro's journey will end when Luffy's journey will end. Meaning that Mihawk not being the Final opponent will not be plot twist because it was never foreshadowed to be so.

As for me disagreeing, it's the same as how you think Akainu is not going to the FV. Just like how you think that Akainu isn't strong enough, I find it unlikely that Zoro will be having a personal battle with Mihawk while the rest of the world is fighting for the sake of the entire world. And if we assume BB is FV, again mihawk doesn't fit in that scenario either. And if we assume that Zoro will fight Mihawk after the final war, at that point Zoro should be too strong(Same as Luffy being too strong for Akainu).


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## barreltheif (Sep 3, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Let's not forget that Luffy's final goal is finding one piece .Yet we already know that there is a major event that's going to take place after our MC achieves his goal. So yeah, there is no such thing as Mihawk is foreshadowed to be the final opponent. All we know is that Zoro wants his title. When, how and where is upto speculation.
> 
> And beating Mihawk is zoro's personal ultimate goal  but zoro's journey will end when Luffy's journey will end. Meaning that Mihawk not being the Final opponent will not be plot twist because it was never foreshadowed to be so.
> 
> As for me disagreeing, it's the same as how you think Akainu is not going to the FV. Just like how you think that Akainu isn't strong enough, I find it unlikely that Zoro will be having a personal battle with Mihawk while the rest of the world is fighting for the sake of the entire world. And if we assume BB is FV, again mihawk doesn't fit in that scenario either. And if we assume that Zoro will fight Mihawk after the final war, at that point Zoro should be too strong(Same as Luffy being too strong for Akainu).




You're completely missing the point. There are some reasons to think that Mihawk might not be the last opponent that Zoro fights. But that doesn't change the fact that Mihawk has been hyped up as Zoro's ultimate goal. Akainu has not been hyped to be Luffy's final goal at all. Nothing in the manga has ever even hinted at this.


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## Orca (Sep 3, 2014)

Akainu is hyped to be a major antagonist and his position and the chain of events that we have been told will unfold, put Akainu in a position where he could be the FV.

Similarly Mihawk has been hyped to be Zoro's goal which puts him in a position where he could be the Final opponent.

So both can possibly be the final opponents due to different reasons.(Whether Akainu has been directly hyped as an EoS opponent shouldn't matter).

Not what is left is how unlikely people think that Akainu and Mihawk will be the final opponents. This is where it becomes subjective. I've already given my reasoning as to why I find both unlikely to be final opponents. You're associating greater importance with Mihawk being Zoro's goal. Whereas others will associate greater importance with the killer of luffy's brother and the guy who is top fighter of the main villainous organization.


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## Dunno (Sep 3, 2014)

Luffee said:


> ^The main reason people think Akainu is stronger is due to his portrayal and feats. Not that he's final villain.
> 
> The final villain argument is only brought in when people bring in The "Mihawk is zoro's EOS opponent." Just like its possible that Akainu isn't FV, it's also possible that Mihawk isn't Zoro's final opponent either.



The main reason people think Akainu is stronger is because he's the only living top tier who has gone all out. His feats can't be compared with Mihawk's as long as Mihawk hasn't been pushed at least a little bit. We've seen Akainu's ceiling but not Mihawk's, which is why Akainu's feats can't possibly put him above Mihawk until we do. Akainu's hype as an admiral is also not above Mihawk's hype as the WSS.

And Zoro's and Mihawk's fight over who is the WSS has been foreshadowed since Baratie, and no-one else has even been hinted at as a possible EoS opponent for him. Akainu one the other hand has only been foreshadowed to be one of Luffy more prominent opponents since Marineford. The one who has been foreshadowed to be Luffy's EoS opponent is Blackbeard. The probability of Mihawk being Zoro's EoS opponent is much larger than Akainu being Luffy's.


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## kidgogeta (Sep 3, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> Dat reasoning!
> hancock/doflamingo didn't receive a scratch aswell, while WB died so that means DD/hancock would stomp WB right? plus akainu's opponents in MF would godstomp mihawk's opponents so lolnope.



Hancock / Doflaming aren't top tier. If you were gonna come at me with sarcasm at least  make some kind of point that would contest mine.Also, the marines aren't as big a factor in the great scheme of things as people like to believe. This is the age of PIRATES. The battle at Raftel will be one of pirates fighting other pirates. Akainu will go down before this. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Probably to Sabo


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## Orca (Sep 3, 2014)

@Dunno

I didn't say whether Akainu's feats should automatically put him above Mihawk or not. I was simply stating why people think that way. Now it's perfectly fine to think Akainu > Mihawk based on feats and portrayal. Even though it's not a definitive answer since Mihawk hasn't gone all out, it's all we have at this point. Akainu's performance against commanders was better than anyone else's.

I will agree to this much, that based on just the fact Mihawk is zoro's goal, one could argue that he has more probability of being final opponent. Just based on that statement alone. But after putting things in context and knowing what we know after 750 chapters, I find it as likely/unlikely as Akainu being FV.


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## trance (Sep 3, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> we're seeing this from different perspectives then, feats take top priority IMO, and if someone's feats contradict with his hype/portrayal. i'll just take it as he doesn't live up to his hype. ofc these feats needs to be legit, and not PIS-invoked for us to can solely to rely on them.



Again, I'm *not* disagreeing with this. I'm simply noting the flaw in Lionel's reasoning that feats mean absolutely everything. 



barreltheif said:


> *It is possible, but unlikely, that Mihawk won't be Zoro's final opponent.* Beating Mihawk is currently Zoro's ultimate goal and has been since the very beginning of the manga. If Mihawk isn't Zoro final opponent, it will be a plot twist.
> 
> *It is virtually certain that Akainu won't be Luffy's final opponent.* Beating Akainu certainly isn't Luffy ultimate goal. Akainu has never been remotely foreshadowed to be Luffy's final opponent. Akainu isn't strong enough: he's not even as strong as old WB, let alone prime WB or EoS Luffy.



It's still entirely possible for Sakazuki to have grown stronger over the timeskip, though. He's got the mindset for it and it would tie in with the Marines' hype of increasing their military might like never before over the timeskip.


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## LyricalMessiah (Sep 4, 2014)

Akainu could have definitely grown in strength. It's a possibility that has no logical fallacies to rule it out on being infallible. The only problem is assessing at which level he grew in terms of strength. I believe that, Akainu, being extremely strong in the pre time skip didn't have much of a leeway to grow in strength since he was (and still is) in his primes with unfathomable power at his disposal. Hence his skirmish with Whitebeard. We know that Akainu was beaten by Whitebeard with high extreme difficulty, so if his Time skip incarnation grows in strength, will he make up for that minor gap in power between he and Whitebeard in the pre time skip? In other words, would Akainu in the Time skip be > Pre time skip Old whitebeard? It all depends on how powerful he gets, and seeing as how we have no panels indicating that he grew in strength since the pre time skip or the amount of strength he gained, we can only speculate at this point. 

As for this match? Akainu beats Mihawk in my opinion with High difficulty. He's simply too powerful and was strong enough to continue fighting against Jimbei, the Whitebeard pirates that includes foes like Vista, Marco, Crocodile and other strong haki users of the Whitebeard pirates which was an event that took place right after Whitebeard had slammed Akainu onto the ground with an island cracking attack.


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## Dellinger (Sep 4, 2014)

Akainu doesn't have better hype than Mihawk?The hell?

Oda himself hyped him up,he is the only one to have defeated another top tier in a fight,he is an excellent leader,he clashed with WB equally for multiple times and he was the main reason WB died.

While Mihawk on the other hand still has a title that simply doesn't matter in a fight against Akainu.


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## Doma (Sep 4, 2014)

It's probably been mentioned somewhere in these 12 pages. But until proven otherwise, I'm going with Akainu because it'd be retarded if the strongest fighter on the marines side was a pirate.


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## maupp (Sep 4, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Mihawk not fighting Zoro would be a plot twist. Not him not being the final opponent.
> 
> As for the likeliness of Mihawk being the final opponent, I find it as unlikely as Akainu being the FV. So it's a subjective matter really.


Come the feck on mate. REally? Are you really going this angle of denying the obvious(or closest to it) in order to make a case for yourself no matter how faulty and wrong your original premise is.  

It has been well foreshadowed that Mihawk might end up being Zoro's final opponent. If things don't go that way, then that certainly is a twist, but the likelihood of Mihawk being Zoro's final opponent are indeed very high. Comparing it probability to Akainu being Luffy final opponent is down right laughable .

Mihawk ties nicely in Zoro's end game goal. His main dream and main plot involves Mihawk. To achieve that dream and get a closure on Zoro story that started since manga beginning, he has to face Mihawk and claim the title of WSS. 

Akainu's case is completely different and you should know it. There are countless reason why BB feat that role nicely and I won't bother to elaborate on it now since I've already done so couple of posts back


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## maupp (Sep 4, 2014)

Dunno said:


> The main reason people think Akainu is stronger is because he's the only living top tier who has gone all out. His feats can't be compared with Mihawk's as long as Mihawk hasn't been pushed at least a little bit. We've seen Akainu's ceiling but not Mihawk's, which is why Akainu's feats can't possibly put him above Mihawk until we do. Akainu's hype as an admiral is also not above Mihawk's hype as the WSS.
> 
> And Zoro's and Mihawk's fight over who is the WSS has been foreshadowed since Baratie, and no-one else has even been hinted at as a possible EoS opponent for him. Akainu one the other hand has only been foreshadowed to be one of Luffy more prominent opponents since Marineford. The one who has been foreshadowed to be Luffy's EoS opponent is Blackbeard. The probability of Mihawk being Zoro's EoS opponent is much larger than Akainu being Luffy's.


Give yourself a tap on the head and and throw a little fistbump in the air. So much sense in this post. You Sir deserves a cooky


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## LyricalMessiah (Sep 4, 2014)

Doma said:


> It's probably been mentioned somewhere in these 12 pages. But until proven otherwise, I'm going with Akainu because it'd be retarded if the strongest fighter on the marines side was a pirate.



Just about what I have in thought.


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## Peppoko (Sep 5, 2014)

Mihawk extreme-diff

Could go either way, but I'll give it to Mihawk because of hype.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm glad this thread keeps going, because it proves that half of you still don't get it. Or simply refuse to accept what you know is the truth.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 5, 2014)

Mihawk cant hit pre ts Luffy  He is going to get murdered under 3 seconds.


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## Suit (Sep 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Mihawk cant hit pre ts Luffy  He is going to get murdered under 3 seconds.



Oh boy, this is going to be good. 

"I won't hold back, Red Hair." >Proceeds to miss Luffy several times.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 5, 2014)

Roo said:


> Oh boy, this is going to be good.
> 
> "I won't hold back, Red Hair." >Proceeds to miss Luffy several times.



Not only Miss.
His strongest move was blocked by Jozu *just standing there*.
His best feat so far (Tsunami one) is him attacking luffy with his whole strength and failing


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## Suit (Sep 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Not only Miss.
> His strongest move was blocked by Jozu *just standing there*.
> His best feat so far (Tsunami one) is him attacking luffy with his whole strength and failing



In before "that was just an unnamed attack!"

There is a bit of weight to that though, seriously. I doubt it was his strongest, but it was obvious it wasn't at all just a casual attack. Jozu would have taken some damage if it had been his strongest, I believe. Not died. But taken a bit off damage. His arm still would have been there, that's for sure.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 5, 2014)

Roo said:


> In before "that was just an unnamed attack!"
> 
> There is a bit of weight to that though, seriously. *I doubt it was his strongest,* but it was obvious it wasn't at all just a casual attack. Jozu would have taken some damage if it had been his strongest, I believe. Not died. But taken a bit off damage. His arm still would have been there, that's for sure.



Yeah the big letters saying "Ultimate Slash" and him babbling to himself about testing himself against Strongest Man on the planet are obvious indicators that it was no biggie


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## Suit (Sep 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Yeah the big letters saying "Ultimate Slash" and him babbling to himself about testing himself against Strongest Man on the planet are obvious indicators that it was no biggie



Not that I'm against you on this, but I'm not sure that's how it went down. I would worship your image if you posted a scan proving this though. 

No seriously, it would help a lot. Please post it.


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## StrawHat4Life (Sep 5, 2014)

If Mihawk knew ahead of time that a diamond man would intercept his slash then perhaps things would've gone much differently.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 5, 2014)

Roo said:


> Not that I'm against you on this, but I'm not sure that's how it went down. I would worship your image if you posted a scan proving this though.
> 
> No seriously, it would help a lot. Please post it.


Mihawk babbling how he wants to see strength difference and sending flying slash



"He stopped worlds strongest slash"

IDK how it sounds to people on this forum, but it sounds pretty direct to me.


StrawHat4Life said:


> If Mihawk knew ahead of time that a diamond man would intercept his slash then I'm pretty sure it would've gone much differently.



He would send stronger slash than his strongest Slash ?

If he knew that Luffy was fast he would attack faster than he could ? hmm Fan made powers are really op


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## StrawHat4Life (Sep 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> He would send stronger slash than his strongest Slash ?
> 
> If he knew that Luffy was fast he would attack faster than he could ? hmm Fan made powers are really op



You're misunderstanding the context of that statement. The worlds strongest slash as in a slash performed by the worlds strongest swordsman, not his strongest slash _period_. It clearly isn't the strongest attack in his arsenal.


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## Suit (Sep 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Mihawk babbling how he wants to see strength difference and sending flying slash
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll bite on that. If we are to take Mihawk's "strongest swordsman" title seriously, then we should consider that statement as well. If that was the world's strongest slash, there can't be a stronger one. 

@SH4L: Guess Mihawk's CoO isn't that great then, huh?


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## J★J♥ (Sep 5, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> You're misunderstanding the context of that statement. The worlds strongest slash as in a slash performed by the worlds strongest swordsman. It clearly isn't the strongest attack in his arsenal.



No. No really its not. Weight lifted by worlds strongest man is not heaviest thing in existence 
As painting painted by worlds best painter is not best painting.

"He stopped slash from worlds strongest swordsman" is what you are trying to make it into, which it is not.

And btw when you want to see strength difference between you and someone else and you challenge him in arm wrestling you don't use 20% of your strength do you ?

Let me predict your answer you will call me a troll and stay in denial.


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## StrawHat4Life (Sep 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> No. No really its not. Weight lifted by worlds strongest man is not heaviest thing in existence
> As painting painted by worlds best painter is not best painting.
> 
> He stopped slash from worlds strongest swordsman is what you are trying to make it into, which is not.
> ...



By virtue of being the WSS Mihawk possesses the worlds strongest slash. However, this doesn't mean that the attack Mihawk launched at WB was his strongest. It wasn't. This also wasn't a close range encounter either. Mihawk was measuring the distance between them. 

I don't resort to petty name calling by the way. Do you get called troll a lot?


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## Suit (Sep 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> No. No really its not. Weight lifted by worlds strongest man is not heaviest thing in existence
> As painting painted by worlds best painter is not best painting.
> 
> "He stopped slash from worlds strongest swordsman" is what you are trying to make it into, which it is not.
> ...



This is the most compelling part. Oda had Jozu stop that slash, after Mihawk's statement of "measuring himself" against WB no less, to show the truly vast distance between the WSM and the WSM.


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## StrawHat4Life (Sep 5, 2014)

The whole point of Marco and Jozu intercepting those attacks wasn't just to hype up WB but to show that they were each legitimate threats in their own right, even against an Admiral or the WSS.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 5, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> By virtue of being the WSS Mihawk possesses the worlds strongest slash.


I agree completely 


StrawHat4Life said:


> However, this doesn't mean that the attack Mihawk launched at WB was his strongest.


I agree completely


StrawHat4Life said:


> It wasn't. This also wasn't a close range encounter either.


It was.
1)It literally says in manga that it is
2)His words before launching strike indicate it


StrawHat4Life said:


> It wasn't. This also wasn't a close range encounter either.?


You don't really believe that his huge sword is made for CQC do you ? Because its obviously not.


StrawHat4Life said:


> Mihawk was measuring the distance between them.


What  he was not measuring the distance between them he was measuring the strength gap between them.



StrawHat4Life said:


> Do you get called troll a lot?



*Spoiler*: __ 









Roo said:


> This is the most compelling part. Oda had Jozu stop that slash, after Mihawk's statement of "measuring himself" against WB no less, to show the truly vast distance between the WSM and the WSM.


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## Lawliet (Sep 5, 2014)

The correct translation of that scene was " a slash from the WSS ". 

Oda loves to hype his characters, that's all.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 5, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> The correct translation of that scene was " a slash from the WSS ".
> 
> Oda loves to hype his characters, that's all.


I don't think so do you have any proof ?


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## StrawHat4Life (Sep 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> 1)It literally says in manga that it is
> 2)His words before launching strike indicate it
> 
> You don't really believe that his huge sword is made for CQC do you ? Because its obviously not.
> ...



An unnamed slash delivered from far range is not Mihawk's strongest attack. There was no indication that he was even close to going all out in that moment.  You know when we'll see his truly strongest slash? When he throws down with Zoro again. It was a slash delivered from far range to gauge the difference between himself and WB, a test to confirm his assumptions. Nothing more. Nothing less.


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## 108CaliberPhoenix (Sep 5, 2014)

Mihawk definitely wasn't going all out but he wasn't playing around either when he sent that slash


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## J★J♥ (Sep 5, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> An unnamed slash delivered from far range is not Mihawk's strongest attack. There was no indication that he was even close to going all out in that moment.  You know when we'll see his truly strongest slash? When he throws down with Zoro again. It was a slash delivered from far range to gauge the difference between himself and WB, a test to confirm his assumptions. Nothing more. Nothing less.



Chapter 561
Name Luffy vs Mihawk



His range ~ Indicates that Mihawk is Mid range fighter

Mihawk goes to CQC

Half dead Luffy dodges. 1

Half dead Luffy Dodges. 1

Half dead Luffy Dodges. 1

Half dead Luffy Dodges 6

Half dead Luffy manages to pull down Buggy and dodge before Mihawk finishes slash. 1

Mihawk gets irritated and prepares to send another long range slash at Luffys back which Vista stopped.

10 attacks from close range that is how many attacks half dead pre skip Luffy Dodged in canon from Mihawk in CQC,

Leaving his range for a moment
I have to repeat when you are measuring your strength against someone you use your full strength otherwise it just does not work. Unless you really think that he was measuring actual range between them which is just strange.

Leaving his strongest attack and range for a second as demonstrated from the scans above his combat speed is pathetic compared to someone like Doflamingo, Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru or anyone really who would just grab Luffy with bare hands there and rip him in half.

I cant see why or how is Mihawk this overrated. Akainu would eat him alive.

Is it his Hype of fighting Shanks who was weak enough at that time for big fish to eat his arm ?


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## Gohara (Sep 5, 2014)

It was a one handed swing from a far away standing Mihawk.

Plus, I disagree that Jozu blocked it with ease.  The positioning of Jozu as he was deflecting it indicates that he was trying pretty hard.  Not to mention the marks on his face, his facial expression, and the steam emitting from his body.

I think it was just a clever way for Oda to hype Jozu without making Mihawk look too weak.


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## batman22wins (Sep 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Chapter 561
> Name Luffy vs Mihawk
> 
> 
> ...



Mihawk vs Luffy is PIS. Think about this Zoro came back from his training and was able one shot a Pacifista and is still way weaker then Mihawk. Post timeskip Zoro would no different Pre timeskip Luffy. It was just Oda not really revealing Mihawk signature moveset until he gets into a real figh. Just like we are seeing All of Doffy moveset now. All Mihawk does is thrust his sword and give long stares. So now Doffy can fight Mihawk? What crack do you smoke good sir


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## Suit (Sep 5, 2014)

batman22wins said:


> Mihawk vs Luffy is PIS. Think about this Zoro came back from his training and was able one shot a Pacifista and is still way weaker then Mihawk. Post timeskip Zoro would no different Pre timeskip Luffy. It was just Oda not really revealing Mihawk signature moveset until he gets into a real figh. Just like we are seeing All of Doffy moveset now. All Mihawk does is thrust his sword and give long stares. So now Doffy can fight Mihawk? What crack do you smoke good sir



"Something happened that I didn't like! PIS!"


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## batman22wins (Sep 5, 2014)

Roo said:


> "Something happened that I didn't like! PIS!"



It's not that I didn't like it, it was clearly PIS unless you think Pre timeskip Luffy wouldn't get no diff by Post timeskip Zoro. The Same Zoro who still has a ways to go to becoming the WSS It was PIS and Mihawk hasn't used one name attack yet just like Flamingo use to do. Now we see Doffy full power and arsenal. Oda does this with a lot of characters.


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## Unclear Justice (Sep 6, 2014)

If those are the options to interpret the "Worlds strongest slash" statement: 



> The strongest slash the Worlds Strongest Swordsman is capable of performing





> A slash performed by the Worlds Strongest Swordsman



Then siding with the second option is the way to go.

Why?


Look where the statement came from: A random Marine soldier.


If he would've meant it like stated in the first quote, this would imply that this soldier has full insight into Mihawk's abilities otherwise he couldn't know what Mihawk's strongest slash looks like. That there is someone in the world who knows all of Mihawk's abilities already would be a bold statement. A random fodder Marine being such a person is ludicrous.

If the soldier would've meant this statement like stated in the second quote,  this would only imply that he knows that Mihawk is the WSS which should be common knowledge in the world in general and in the ranks of the Marines in particular.


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## trance (Sep 6, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> If those are the options to interpret the "Worlds strongest slash" statement:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought it was common sense that the latter quote is true?


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## Unclear Justice (Sep 6, 2014)

^I hope that now it is.


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## Dracule Mihawk (Sep 6, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Chapter 561
> Name Luffy vs Mihawk
> 
> 
> ...



No it doesn't. It indicates Mihawk can easily extend into mid range. That despite trying to run away in the midst of a whole war, Mihawk can clearly see where Luffy is. 



> Mihawk goes to CQC
> 
> Half dead Luffy dodges. 1
> 
> ...



Mihawk's entire purpose of the fight was to see how Luffy would escape. 




It's pretty obvious from Mihawk's statement that he doesn't even think of Luffy as an actual opponent or threat. 

Also the one time Luffy even considers attacking, Mihawk lets him know what a bad idea it would be-






> I have to repeat when you are measuring your strength against someone you use your full strength otherwise it just does not work. Unless you really think that he was measuring actual range between them which is just strange.



You see how casually he deals with an average attack. 



> Leaving his strongest attack and range for a second as demonstrated from the scans above his combat speed is pathetic compared to someone like Doflamingo, Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru or anyone really who would just grab Luffy with bare hands there and rip him in half.



You really think Doflamingo would take Mihawk out? Really? That's absolutely hilarious. Mihawk hasn't pushed himself at all and nobody ever even tries to fuck with him.
I cant see why or how is Mihawk this overrated. Akainu would eat him alive.



> Is it his Hype of fighting Shanks who was weak enough at that time for big fish to eat his arm ?





Yonkou Shanks still thinks Mihawk of an actual opponent. His whole crew gets serious when Mihawk arrives. Mihawk is the one who dismisses Shanks. 

The Mihawk - Shanks duel is legendary and without conclusion (using the above panel)-




So come on, don't be ridiculous. It's quite obvious Mihawk hasn't gone anywhere near all out on panel. He basically was at the war just to see other strong warriors.


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## monkey d ace (Sep 6, 2014)

'sekai ichi no zangeki' - translates literally to the number one slash in the world. ie the strongest.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 6, 2014)

Dracule Mihawk said:


> Mihawk's entire purpose of the fight was to see how Luffy would escape.
> .



Go away 



monkey d ace said:


> 'sekai ichi no zangeki' - translates literally to the number one slash in the world. ie the strongest.



Thank you


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## Unclear Justice (Sep 6, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> 'sekai ichi no zangeki' - translates literally to the number one slash in the world. ie the strongest.



That's true but this doesn't solve the problem.

The soldier saw this attack and considered it the worlds number one slash. He probably did so because he never saw something comparable before. He can't know that this was indeed the worlds best slash unless he knows every slash the people in the OP verse can create.

This actually further decreases the reliability of this statement.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 6, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> That's true but this doesn't solve the problem.
> 
> The soldier saw this attack and considered it the worlds number one slash. He probably did so because he never saw something comparable before. He can't know that this was indeed the worlds best slash unless he knows every slash the people in the OP verse can create.
> 
> This actually further decreases the reliability of this statement.


Its not like Mihawk is super famous and has public duels with other swordsman right ? right ?
If you have seen how Beckham plays sucker or Brock Lesnair fight you know what they are capable of and their maximum despite you yourself being no match for them in their speciality  

and all that ignoring fact that it was oda speaking through fodder marine.


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## Amol (Sep 6, 2014)

I am surprised that this thread went this far .
Lets be real now.
Akainu is the guy who is one of the prime candidate for FV and current WSM.
All Mihawk has his title .
He is not even Zoro's final opponent.
He is a strong guy . I would even  consider him against any other admiral but not Akainu.
Akainu wins with high diff.


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## Unclear Justice (Sep 6, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Its not like Mihawk is super famous and has public duels with other swordsman right ? right ?
> If you have seen how Beckham plays sucker or Brock Lesnair fight you know what they are capable of and their maximum despite you yourself being no match for them in their speciality
> 
> and all that ignoring fact that it was oda speaking through fodder marine.



Well then show me an instance where Mihawk fought openly and had to go all out prior to MF. 

Also you just dropped the possibility of other people being able to produce better air slashes without giving a reasoning for that. 

Furthermore do you imply that we should accept everything every character says as the truth because Oda spoke through them? If not, why is this guy special?


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## J★J♥ (Sep 6, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Well then show me an instance where Mihawk fought openly and had to go all out prior to MF.
> 
> Also you just dropped the possibility of other people being able to produce better air slashes without giving a reasoning for that.
> 
> Furthermore do you imply that we should accept everything every character says as the truth because Oda spoke through them? If not, why is this guy special?



What.. those arguments are become weaker and weaker.
Mihawk had open duels with shanks, chased Don Krieg for how long exactly ? He manages to stay super popular in OP verse and there where even fodders who claimed to fight him and he said that he does not remember everyone he fights with 
Obviously just like Ryuuma he is walking around searching for other swordsmen to fight and people around them are able to see their duels which is just obvious to the point that everyone with common sense should not even talk or mention its obvious to that point 

And yes whenever there is character made just to make one comment and disappear into nothingless thats Oda speaking through him.


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## trance (Sep 6, 2014)

Amol said:


> Akainu is the guy who is one of the prime candidate for FV and *current WSM*.



One of the strongest beings alive? Certainly. The new "World's Strongest Man"? I don't know about that one.


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## Orca (Sep 6, 2014)

Regardless of whether that slash was his strongest or not, it was atleast one of his stronger attacks and not just any other slash. Since he was attacking WB of all people.

Plus we can compare it to a similar scenario in Kizaru vs Marco, where Kizaru used YnM which is one of his stronger attacks.

The point was to show the extraordinary defenses of WB's commanders and not to dehype the attacking power of the WSS and an admiral.


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## Kaiser (Sep 6, 2014)

I doubt that move was his strongest anyway considering the casual iceberg feat. It was a one handed air slash to boot. I think he was just trying to test Whitebeard, nothing more


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## Orca (Sep 6, 2014)

The slash used against WB was definitely stronger than the one he used to cut the iceberg.


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## Kaiser (Sep 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> The slash used against WB was definitely stronger than the one he used to cut the iceberg.


How do you compare?


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## Orca (Sep 6, 2014)

Why would Mihawk use a stronger attack against Luffy compared to WB? Especially when there is reason to believe mihawk was holding back against Luffy.


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## Amol (Sep 6, 2014)

Testing your strength against WSM is totally pointless if you are not using your The Strongest or One of the Strongest attack.
It can not be a 'casual' attack from him.


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## Kaiser (Sep 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Why would Mihawk use a stronger attack against Luffy compared to WB? Especially when there is reason to believe mihawk was holding back against Luffy.


Fair point


Amol said:


> Testing your strength against WSM is totally pointless if you are not using your The Strongest or One of the Strongest attack.
> It can not be a 'casual' attack from him.


You don't test your strength with one attack only either. It's in an all-out battle that you can determine strength difference with an opponent. I personally saw it as an invitation to a fight against Whitebeard. But like Marco said to Kizaru, they were not going to leave them take the head first


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## monkey d ace (Sep 6, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> That's true but this doesn't solve the problem.
> 
> The soldier saw this attack and considered it the worlds number one slash. He probably did so because he never saw something comparable before. He can't know that this was indeed the worlds best slash unless he knows every slash the people in the OP verse can create.
> 
> This actually further decreases the reliability of this statement.


i think this is thinking too much into it, it's like someone saying how do we know mihawk is actually the WSS when he hasn't defeated every swordsman in the world? this is kinda the same, oda gave us that info to take it. unless u can give another logical reason for why oda gave that slash such a title, i don't think we can deny it. the situation that led to this also suggests that it is indeed what oda said. mihawk sends his strongest slash to know the gap between him and WB seems perfectly logical. while sending a random/weaker slash doesn't really.
but still, i can interpret this w/o denying oda's statement, mihawk could've used physical strength in that slash rather than skill, so jozu was able to stop it w/o recieving dmg. this seems pretty logical to me, and here i'm not denying anything from the manga.


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## Unclear Justice (Sep 6, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> What.. those arguments are become weaker and weaker.
> Mihawk had open duels with shanks, chased Don Krieg for how long exactly ? He manages to stay super popular in OP verse and there where even fodders who claimed to fight him and he said that he does not remember everyone he fights with
> Obviously just like Ryuuma he is walking around searching for other swordsmen to fight and people around them are able to see their duels which is just obvious to the point that everyone with common sense should not even talk or mention its obvious to that point
> 
> And yes whenever there is character made just to make one comment and disappear into nothingless thats Oda speaking through him.



If you want to use his duels with Shanks then you assume that Mihawk didn't become stronger since then and that people were actually watching on the sidelines or that people could watch it in TV.

Don Krieg is worthless here because Mihawk didn't have to go all out. Same goes for the other fodder.


If someone says that this is the best slash of Mihawk (implying he knows Mihawk can't do better) then he can only know that because Mihawk said it himself (in a situation where it makes no sense to lie) or because Mihawk had to do a bigger slash in order to achieve something important but failed. In the latter case the Marine must have witnessed this event and Mihawk must have been at full strength. But even then those scenarios are worthless if Mihawk became stronger since then which means that Marine must also know that Mihawk didn't improve.

No way this guy knows all this stuff.



monkey d ace said:


> i think this is thinking too much into it, it's like someone saying how do we know mihawk is actually the WSS when he hasn't defeated every swordsman in the world? this is kinda the same, oda gave us that info to take it. unless u can give another logical reason for why oda gave that slash such a title, i don't think we can deny it. the situation that led to this also suggests that it is indeed what oda said. mihawk sends his strongest slash to know the gap between him and WB seems perfectly logical. while sending a random/weaker slash doesn't really.
> but still, i can interpret this w/o denying oda's statement, mihawk could've used physical strength in that slash rather than skill, so jozu was able to stop it w/o recieving dmg. this seems pretty logical to me, and here i'm not denying anything from the manga.



It's atypical for Oda to put limitations on his characters in such a manner (openly stating a strongest attack) especially if the statement comes from a random Marine. If this statement is supposed to be taken seriously I would expect someone like Sengoku or Whitebeard to say it (people who's words actually hold some weight) and that this one soldier is supposed to know the exact limits of Mihawk's abilities is irritating to say the least.

So my take on this matter from an in-universe perspective is that this soldier was stunned and simply assumed that this was Mihawk's best slash.

From the outside perspective it was the strongest slash *for now* which gives the attack itself and everything following it importance but when Oda gives Mihawk better feats later he can use the in-universe explanation to negate the limitations he put on himself.


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## hungrytrash (Sep 6, 2014)

It always surprises me that threads like this get the most replies/views...
This fight could go either way. Mihawk wins 5 out of 10 times. That may change depending on how Akainu progresses.


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## monkey d ace (Sep 6, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> It's atypical for Oda to put limitations on his characters in such a manner (openly stating a strongest attack) especially if the statement comes from a random Marine. If this statement is supposed to be taken seriously I would expect someone like Sengoku or Whitebeard to say it (people who's words actually hold some weight) and that this one soldier is supposed to know the exact limits of Mihawk's abilities is irritating to say the least.
> 
> So my take on this matter from an in-universe perspective is that this soldier was stunned and simply assumed that this was Mihawk's best slash.
> 
> From the outside perspective it was the strongest slash *for now* which gives the attack itself and everything following it importance but when Oda gives Mihawk better feats later he can use the in-universe explanation to negate the limitations he put on himself.


this is not the first time random people are used by oda to give us info, anyway i still think this is thinking too much, and if u use it to deny one thing others will use it to deny another. i don't get how and why would oda put some fodder marine's assumption as a fact like that, unless it's something to take note for. it makes less sense for oda to do so, and goes yeah never mind that.
but ur free to think what u want, but using 'how does he know' sense to debunk what's in the manga is not a good idea, since that works for most things, including mihawk's title itself.


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## Quipchaque (Sep 7, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> i think this is thinking too much into it, it's like someone saying how do we know mihawk is actually the WSS when he hasn't defeated every swordsman in the world? this is kinda the same, oda gave us that info to take it. unless u can give another logical reason for why oda gave that slash such a title, i don't think we can deny it. the situation that led to this also suggests that it is indeed what oda said. *mihawk sends his strongest slash to know the gap between him and WB seems perfectly logical.* while sending a random/weaker slash doesn't really.
> but still, i can interpret this w/o denying oda's statement, mihawk could've used physical strength in that slash rather than skill, so jozu was able to stop it w/o recieving dmg. this seems pretty logical to me, and here i'm not denying anything from the manga.



Not at all considering WB wouldn?t go all-out either. Or do you honestly believe Mihawk would expect WB to put up a conqueror?s haki infused gura-defense? Besides there is a reason he?s called the Hawk-eye. He can see things that others wouldn?t.

His mind-set is also very different and an important factor to consider. After all it?s a lot harder to go all-out if you aren?t going for the kill and Mihawk doesn?t seem like the type who would give his all unless all hell is breaking loose.


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## monkey d ace (Sep 7, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Not at all considering WB wouldn?t go all-out either. Or do you honestly believe Mihawk would expect WB to put up a conqueror?s haki infused gura-defense? Besides there is a reason he?s called the Hawk-eye. He can see things that others wouldn?t.
> 
> His mind-set is also very different and an important factor to consider. After all it?s a lot harder to go all-out if you aren?t going for the kill and Mihawk doesn?t seem like the type who would give his all unless all hell is breaking loose.


but WB would go 'all-out' against a random slash right? makes more sense. 
his mindset in that moment is to figure out the gap in strength between him and the WSM.


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## Quipchaque (Sep 7, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> but WB would go 'all-out' against a random slash right? makes more sense.
> his mindset in that moment is to figure out the gap in strength between him and the WSM.



It does not make sense that?s exactly it lol. See you basically assume WB needs to put up his strongest defense to block an airslash which is absolutely not the case. So why would Mihawk even try all that hard? The result would be the same anyway so what?s the point?


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## DavyChan (Sep 7, 2014)

I know that I am adding to this but... WTF
HOW DOES THIS HAVE SO MANY VIEWS. THIS IS STUPID.


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## Dunno (Sep 7, 2014)

It obviously wasn't Mihawk's strongest slash. Oda wouldn't have Mihawk use his strongest slash randomly, because that would make his fight against Zoro really anticlimatic. He also showed no effort at all. He didn't even take a stance, he just slashed. How could a fodder marine possibly have any idea about which slash is Mihawk's strongest? He was probably just overwhelmed by it.

Mihawk was probably thinking something along the line of "I'll use 10% power in this slash. If it takes 10% of Whitebeard's power to stop it, we're not very far apart". Then Jozu came and ruined everything just because he didn't understand Mihawk's intentions, and Mihawk was not in the mood for fighting seriously.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 7, 2014)

Dunno said:


> It *obviously* wasn't Mihawk's strongest slash. Oda wouldn't have Mihawk use his strongest slash randomly, because that would make his fight against Zoro really anticlimatic. He also showed no effort at all. He didn't even take a stance, he just slashed. How could a fodder marine possibly have any idea about which slash is Mihawk's strongest? He was probably just overwhelmed by it.
> 
> Mihawk was probably thinking something along the line of "I'll use 10% power in this slash. If it takes 10% of Whitebeard's power to stop it, we're not very far apart". Then Jozu came and ruined everything just because he didn't understand Mihawk's intentions, and Mihawk was not in the mood for fighting seriously.



*Obviously* ?  really ? "Obviously was not" ? Seriously ? How can you say that when it obviously fucking was ? It cant get any more obvious, know why ? Because the situation before it, Mihawk talking to himself for no reason and statement that it is, but yeah it "obviously" was not because you want it so.

And I'm not replying to rest of your post because i did not read it. Because *obviously* it would be load of bullshit


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## Quipchaque (Sep 8, 2014)

Dunno said:


> It obviously wasn't Mihawk's strongest slash. Oda wouldn't have Mihawk use his strongest slash randomly, because that would make his fight against Zoro really anticlimatic. He also showed no effort at all. He didn't even take a stance, he just slashed. How could a fodder marine possibly have any idea about which slash is Mihawk's strongest? He was probably just overwhelmed by it.
> 
> Mihawk was probably thinking something along the line of "I'll use 10% power in this slash. If it takes 10% of Whitebeard's power to stop it, we're not very far apart". Then Jozu came and ruined everything just because he didn't understand Mihawk's intentions, and Mihawk was not in the mood for fighting seriously.



This guy got it. I doubt he thought about it in a numerical way but still the bottom line is Mihawk didn?t try to "hurt" WB but see how he would handle his attack. Basically if WB blocks it casually he would go all "not bad expected nothing less from his caliber" and if he shows signs of weakness then Mihawk?s reaction is something like "hmm unexpected, guess age has gotten to him". You guys thought he would try to one-shot him from ~500 metres distance with an airslash?


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## barreltheif (Sep 8, 2014)

Dunno said:


> It obviously wasn't Mihawk's strongest slash. Oda wouldn't have Mihawk use his strongest slash randomly, because that would make his fight against Zoro really anticlimatic. He also showed no effort at all. He didn't even take a stance, he just slashed. How could a fodder marine possibly have any idea about which slash is Mihawk's strongest? He was probably just overwhelmed by it.
> 
> Mihawk was probably thinking something along the line of "I'll use 10% power in this slash. If it takes 10% of Whitebeard's power to stop it, we're not very far apart". Then Jozu came and ruined everything just because he didn't understand Mihawk's intentions, and Mihawk was not in the mood for fighting seriously.




Precisely this.


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## Kanki (Sep 8, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> *Obviously* ?  really ? "Obviously was not" ? Seriously ? How can you say that when it obviously fucking was ? It cant get any more obvious, know why ? Because the situation before it, Mihawk talking to himself for no reason and statement that it is, but yeah it "obviously" was not because you want it so.
> 
> And I'm not replying to rest of your post because i did not read it. Because *obviously* it would be load of bullshit



Was Garp's punch to Marco is strongest attack? 
Did Ace block Aokiji's strongest attack? 
Did pre-skip Luffy tank Sangoku's strongest attack?
Did Crocodile tank Doflamingo's strongest attack?

The answer is no. Just like how Jozu did not tank Mihawk's strongest attack. Sometimes, common sense is needed for cases where we don't have concrete proof.

As for the fight itself, for plot purposes I see Akainu as being superior by a hair, but it has nothing to do with Mihawk's attack on WB.


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## shinjojin (Sep 8, 2014)

As much as I hate to admit, I'd say Sakazuki with extreme difficulty.


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## Mister LoLz (Sep 10, 2014)

Akainu probably edges it out, but it will be extreme difficulty. Thought it could change if either Shanks or Mihawk get more feats.


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