# Arch-Type Earth vs Counter Guardian EMIYA.



## Red (Jun 22, 2011)

Arch-Type Earth


 vs

 Counter Guardian EMIYA.



1) Who's stronger Arch-type Earth with the backing of Gaia or CG Emiya with the backing of Alaya?
2) Who'd win in a fight?


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## familyparka (Jun 22, 2011)

1) With Alaya do you mean Akasha?
2) Archtype, obviously


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## Crimson King (Jun 22, 2011)

#2 depends on who gets off their attack first.


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## Xelloss (Jun 22, 2011)

You can't kill Arch-type earth, even if you destroy her body earth would bring her back.


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## Crimson King (Jun 22, 2011)

Xelloss said:


> You can't kill Arch-type earth, even if you destroy her body earth would bring her back.



Gae Bolg then use UBW to cut her off from her powers.


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## Xelloss (Jun 22, 2011)

What is he gonna do? kill earth because thats the only way to kill her powers, and consider that marbel phantasm is pretty much probability manipulation Gae bolg is useless.


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## Crimson King (Jun 22, 2011)

Xelloss said:


> What is he gonna do? kill earth because thats the only way to kill her powers, and consider that marbel phantasm is pretty much probability manipulation Gae bolg is useless.



Causality reverse says the spear has already hit. Messing with chance will do nothing to it.

UBW is a Reality Marble, where Gaia has no control.


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## Weather (Jun 22, 2011)

You need to kill earth to kill Arch Type Arc.
What the hell EMIYA is gonna do? And no... GB isn't doing shit here.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 22, 2011)

Crimson King said:


> Causality reverse says the spear has already hit. Messing with chance will do nothing to it.
> 
> UBW is a Reality Marble, where Gaia has no control.


Arch has tits though


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## Xelloss (Jun 23, 2011)

And probability manipulation means Gae bolg fails since the start.


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## Crimson King (Jun 23, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Arch has tits though



You make a compelling argument


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## Weather (Jun 23, 2011)

Also EMIYA isn't gonna trace GB and the UBW before Archer gets to him.

No way in hell.



			
				 Crimson Dragoon said:
			
		

> Arch has tits though



With this argument thread is over.


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## Crimson King (Jun 23, 2011)

Weather said:


> Also EMIYA isn't gonna trace GB and the UBW *before Archer gets to him.*
> 
> No way in hell.
> 
> ...





**


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## familyparka (Jun 23, 2011)

LOL to those who say UBW would work. Reason:

Emiya: "I am the bone of..."

*Archtype ripps his head off and eats the body*

GG


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

Arc at 30% is 4x a Servant. She should be above CG Emiya with Gaia's backing and Archetype Earth mode.




> UBW is a Reality Marble, where Gaia has no control.


Most DAA have RM, and most DAA will get demolished by Arc

Gaia only play a support role if she has to face someone actually stronger than her and keep her alive when she cant survive under her own power. 
Arc don't suddenly turn into weaksauce without Gaia.



Actually, unless you has MEODP, if you are weaker than Arc, cutting off Gaia's influence on her could be tantamount to suicide (Gaia also serve as a limiter, forcing her to be only slightly more powerful than her opponent)


> Gae Bolg


Gae Bolg has a limited range and require the user to call it name before it can unleash the curse.

Gaia's guardians tend to be grossly more powerful than that of Araya anyway, probably because there are only a few Gaia Guardians while there are tons of Araya's Guardians and Counter Guardians (and yet the two forces are relatively equal, at least until Note).
Primate Murder, the other Gaia Guardian require 7 Counter Guardians to restrain, for a sense of scale. And it's still not Crimson Moon or Archtype level.


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## Taikou (Jun 23, 2011)

Riverlia said:


> Primate Murder, the other Gaia Guardian require 7 Counter Guardians to restrain, for a sense of scale. And it's still not Crimson Moon or Archtype level.



It was never stated that primate muder is not CM level or rather with it altrouge is supposed to be above CM, though her physiological condition isn't stable(making pacts with things like kato kato) because of her vampire impulses.
Arch-type stomps.


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Actually If you consider not being able to kill Archetype because the Earth brings her back, the same can be said for Archer and counter guardians since they're all clones that can be brought back as many times as they want. So it pretty much comes down to who can kill the other first which counts as a win or a draw.

TBF UBW is pretty top tier in regards to reality marbles, outside of perhaps Rider's, it's still pretty hax. It pretty much gives Shirou direct access to to the Throne of Hero's through seeing a NP, and if given enough time allows him to copy EX rank weapons. 

If you gave Archer Avalon this would be a pretty decent fight.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

> the same can be said for Archer and counter guardians since they're all clones that can be brought back as many times as they want


Instead of bringing a CG that already lost, it's more likely that Araya will consider using a more powerful CG or multiple CGs. 

Arche-Type Earth would be the ultimate being under Gaian's jurisdiction, so if she cant win, it's likely that Gaia will release her limiters (in case Arc hasn't use all of her power) or buff her more instead of replacing her.




> TBF UBW is pretty top tier in regards to reality marbles, outside of perhaps Rider's, it's still pretty hax. It pretty much gives Shirou direct access to to the Throne of Hero's through seeing a NP, and if given enough time allows him to copy EX rank weapons.


What 'Throne of Hero through seeing a NP'? 

UBW being top tier? by what standard? Most known RM are also pure haxx.

-Rider in F/Z has EX-rank RM-type NP, 
-Lair of the King Beast practically make the user almost impossible to kill and offer a chance to become an independent system from Gaia,  
-Roa's RM amp all his spells to EX rank

The only know RM that seem to be less haxx is Blackmore's (because it seem to be specified in dealing damage to undead) and Satsuki's


Counter Guardian is a frozen image (all progress get purged upon returning), he cant 'level up', so Archer will never be able to copy EX-rank NP (unless one that can be used by anyone happen to lie around when he was fighting Arche-Type Earth) because he never saw one that he can replicate beside Avalon in his life. Now factor in the chance that the material to replicate such NP exist in UBW, and it's plainly impossible.

And the chance of seeing strayed EX-rank NP in this world is almost nil, they are automatically shifted to another plane of existence when left around.


> If you gave Archer Avalon this would be a pretty decent fight.


It's heavily imply that without any connection to Saber, Avalon's true form cant be used and its passive functions are also reduced (Shirou didn't stop aging at the age of 7 and he suffered a knee wound before F/SN happened, no supper healing occurred).


> It was never stated that primate muder is not CM level or rather with it altrouge is supposed to be above CM, though her physiological condition isn't stable(making pacts with things like kato kato) because of her vampire impulses.


presumably 'Type' is the ultimate being on a celestial body, and thus one chosen as Arche-type by Gaia should at least be above the other Gaian Guardians. CM is slightly stronger or equal to Arche-type Earth.

Primate Murder is Gaia's counter to humanity, again everything else (even ex-human and humanoid non-human), it's not exactly the top of the food chain (though it's still effing powerful, yes).

There is no implication that Altrough, even with her full team, can match Crimson Moon.
And if you count 'team mates', Solomon and Blackmore are extremely loyal to CM, and there's probably more.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

> UBW is top tier because it can potentially carry a near infinite number of bladed weapons(swords, spears, lances, axes, maces, scythes or anything close to sword) and defensive arnaments not divine in nature or beyond Emiya's comprehenshion like EA or Excalibur(Nasu confirmed this) which makes it a watered down Gate of Babylon that never stops growing and potentially it allows the user many powers and H4X unlike the other RMs


The point is not that it's not powerful, but most known RM are just as haxx (well, they are spells infinite close to mahou after all). So what is the standard to call it top-tier?

If we are talking about growth potential
It can copy an infinite amount of weapon, but what is the chance to encounter a NP-class weapon or super-conceptual ones in the modern world? Infinite kitchen knives aint worth mentioning.
Heck, Shirou was lucky Gilgamesh was in the 5th HF, otherwise his RM would have like, a handful of NP at best.

And the one that CG EMIYA uses has zero growth potential left due to his status as a CG.


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Riverlia said:


> Instead of bringing a CG that already lost, it's more likely that Araya will consider using a more powerful CG or multiple CGs.
> 
> Arche-Type Earth would be the ultimate being under Gaian's jurisdiction, so if she cant win, the only choice is release her limiters (in case Arc hasn't use all of her power) or buff her more.
> 
> ...



Again versatility of Noble phantasms such as Gae bolg and wielding to similar proficiency of owner allows him to blitz Nrvnqsr Chaos, considering he was blitzed by Shiki who doesn't really even compare to servants. UBW is also the greatest burst ability overpowering even GOB with sheer numbers and speed. 666 lives simultaneously should be no problem. Unlikely Nrvnqsr Chaos would be able to kill him before he sets it up.


Gae Bolg can deal with Roa and Archer again has a speed advantage due to copying abilities.

Alexander's is a bit harder to think of an outcome. While it could beat GoB UBW fires a lot more at a lot faster rate and since each soldier isn't a particularily impressive HS a rank down noble phantasm should still be able to kill them, but then it just becomes a numbers game and it takes time for Archer to set up GoB.



Riverlia said:


> The point is not that it's not powerful, but most known RM are just as haxx (well, they are spells infinite close to mahou after all). So what is the standard to call it top-tier?
> 
> If we are talking about growth potential
> It can copy an infinite amount of weapon, but what is the chance to encounter a NP-class weapon or super-conceptual ones in the modern world? Infinite kitchen knives aint worth mentioning.
> ...



Actually Archer appears to discover plenty in the RL, since a lot of Archer's current armoury has been hinted to be acquired during his lifetime rather than purely through gate of babylon. We don't even know if he actually faced Gilgamesh in his lifetime.

Still It pretty much gives him the potenial to be a composite servant physically and ability wise. His greatest limitation is time. The more time he spends with a Noble Phantasm, the more perfect his imitation becomes. It's been heavily hinted that he can create NP with no rank loss, the problem is he generally only get's to glance at the and is never able to analyse them for a fairly long period of tume.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

> Again versatility of Noble phantasms such as Gae bolg and wielding to similar proficiency of owner allows him to blitz Nrvnqsr Chaos, considering he was blitzed by Shiki who doesn't really even compare to servants


Chaos rushed to Shiki, who merely slice his arm then stab him. 
Where did you get Shiki blitzing Chaos?

'average' DAA can fight Servant with only a slight disadvantage.
Like hell limited imitation via weapon memory can make a low stat Servant blitz one of the stronger DAA.


> UBW is also the greatest burst ability overpowering even GOB with sheer numbers and speed


greatest burst ability? 
There are greater 'burst ability' in both F/SN and Melty Blood
Moon drop > sword rain and EA > GOB>UBW in term of burst type damage.

UBW overpowering GOB?
It was a direct counter to GOB because of its nature, not because of it's power output, and even then, all it could do was countering GOB's NP rains.

GOB contain better NPs (which mean better damage for NP rains) and items that UBW cant replicate (Nuclear Fusion flying machine, for example, or any other non-weapon/shield/armor.



> Gae Bolg can deal with Roa and Archer again has a speed advantage due to copying abilities.


I was comparing RM, not ROA vs EMIYA, but if you so want

He can only copy stat required to use the NP thank to weapon memory.
Leg speed has nothing to do with Gae Bolg.
Archer get bombarded to hell by long range EX-rank spells.

It took Arcueid and the Church working together to beat the first ROA and he did beat Altrough.



> Alexander's is a bit harder to think of an outcome. While it could beat GoB UBW fires a lot more at a lot faster rate and since each soldier isn't a particularily impressive HS a rank down noble phantasm should still be able to kill them, but then it just becomes a numbers game and it takes time for Archer to set up GoB.


Read above, I'm comparing RM, not Servant.

But then
Alexander got Gil serious for a chance. That show how powerful he was.


P/S: Frankly, Archer is a tactical type fighter, why everyone seem to believe he's some unstoppable combat type?

He can amp his stat with projection, but that is limited to one or two weapons (in case of twin weapons) per time and the stat must be relevant to using the weapon. 
That cant help him overpower enemies on the same caliber of the original weapon user =3=


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 23, 2011)

Nero is servant level, Shiki did what he did due to CIS and PIS. Nero could have restrained him or sent stronger beasts as he got more angry. You need excalibur level powers or anti army abilities. This is'nt Archer vs every RM user, if you want to compare abilities then RM wise Shirou's is one of the best.

UBW overpowers GOB because the NPs Shirou copies have the same physical composition, metal vs metal. His weapons are a rank lower, GOB is more H4X:
-No incantation needed
-Only prana needed is to open it
-No prana for anything else
-Can use non bladed weapons as projectiles
-Can raise EA's output via stats and treasure count
-EA itself which is anti reality marble
-Has more NPs and stuff like vine, potions, planes and stuff
-The average GOB swordspam is A rank as Berserker and Medea learnt
-The average UBW spam by default is B rank as a result

UBW is'nt the most overwhelming attack but it's up there along with Army of King, Nero's monsters and GOB while below EA, Marble Phantasm and other top tier moves. UBW and GOB can be more potent if Gil and Archer know who they're fighting and prep up anti-regen or whatever type of swordspam accordingly.


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## Red (Jun 23, 2011)

Would Caster's rule breaker cut Arc from her connection to Gaia, at least temporarily? It does nullify all pacts. IIRC Shiki cutting of her connection to the full moon which effected her a lot. That could be used her if Rule Breaker could be used. I also think Fate/Zero's Lancer's spear could cut of her Prana supply from the earth. This is assuming that Arch-type Earth's relationship with the earth is one where it provides prana and support. 

SOmewhat off topic: If Archer traced Shiki's blade would he get MEoDP?


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Nero is servant level, Shiki did what he did due to CIS and PIS. Nero could have restrained him or sent stronger beasts as he got more angry. You need excalibur level powers or anti army abilities. This is'nt Archer vs every RM user, if you want to compare abilities then RM wise Shirou's is one of the best.



Yeah I get that but UBW is anti-army by it's nature. Which was my point.



Red said:


> Would Caster's rule breaker cut Arc from her connection to Gaia, at least temporarily? It does nullify all pacts. IIRC Shiki cutting of her connection to the full moon which effected her a lot. That could be used her if Rule Breaker could be used. I also think Fate/Zero's Lancer's spear could cut of her Prana supply from the earth. This is assuming that Arch-type Earth's relationship with the earth is one where it provides prana and support.
> 
> SOmewhat off topic: If Archer traced Shiki's blade would he get MEoDP?



That's not how Shiru's abilities work. He traces physical abilities or weapon abilities. He doesn't trace external abilities. E.G if Saber could do some random attack with Caliburn, Shirou can do it. If Saber is granted a magical ability totally separate from Caliburn Shirou can't do it.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 23, 2011)

No, hew only gains the skill to fight with it, the weapon kind of moves by itself. He can't copy Shiki's power at all anymore than he can copy Saber's prana burst. Rule breaker has never been used on something with contract to Gaia, it has it's limits too. UBW is anti-army and projection lets the user to place the swords anywhere before firing making it very overwhelming it's not end be all even Gil's swordspam is'nt forcing him to use EA or Enkidu(divine beings only) at times. Marble Phantasm is too overpowered compared to any RM seen so far unless UBW somehow gains something to counter it but that would have to border on EX rank and thus not traceable.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

> SOmewhat off topic: If Archer traced Shiki's blade would he get MEoDP?


No
He replicate skill-base abilities via the weapon's memory of how it was used.
All Nanatsu Yoru/Nanaya can remember about MEoDP is Shiki stabbing and cutting random area, not the connection to Akasha and the calculation in his brain.
At best Archer can learn the Nanaya fighting skills like Senshui, Sensha, Kyokushi no Nanaya, etc


P/S: Tranquil ninja'ed me -_-"


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Nero is servant level, Shiki did what he did due to CIS and PIS. Nero could have restrained him or sent stronger beasts as he got more angry. You need excalibur level powers or anti army abilities. This is'nt Archer vs every RM user, if you want to compare abilities then RM wise Shirou's is one of the best.
> 
> UBW overpowers GOB because the NPs Shirou copies have the same physical composition, metal vs metal. His weapons are a rank lower, GOB is more H4X:
> -No incantation needed
> ...



UBW does have some burst advantages over GoB. UBW can copy any weapon infinitely so while Gob can only produce one of each weapon and fire it, Shirou can fire 10, 20, 30, infinite amounts of that same weapon. Once out UBW has a a much faster rate of fire which is how he managed to overpower GoB. These two reasons are why I considered it one of the most powerful burst abilities. The problem with the first is he lacks prana to utilise it to any great affect but with infinite prana he can.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

> UBW does have some burst advantages over GoB. UBW can copy any weapon infinitely so while Gob can only produce one of each weapon and fire it, Shirou can fire fire 10 twenty 30 infinite amounts of that same weapon. Once out UBW has a a much faster rate of fire which is how he managed to overpower GoB. These two reasons are why I considered it one of the most powerful burst abilities. The problem with the first is he lacks prana to utilise it to any great affect but with infinite prana he can.


Replicating more of the same NP cost extra prana.
Also, it's the unknown factor that make the sword rains dangerous.
Spam a rain of the same sword both make the attack predictable.

Also to chose the best weapon, Archer would have to consciously search through every single one of them, which is just silly in the heat of battle. That's why both hims and Gil prefer to pull out random one and fire, only choosing some specific ones when the situation call for.


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Riverlia said:


> Replicating an already existing weapon in UBW cost extra prana.
> also it's the unknown factor that make the sword rains dangerous.
> Spam a rain of the same sword both waste a lot of prana and make the attack predictable.



Yeah hence why I said he require infinite prana to use multiples of the same weapon to any great affect, but actually spam rain of the same weapon holds a fair few advantages, e.g he can replicate his biggest AoE attack an infinite amount of times. Or he can replicate his biggest hax attack an infinite amount of times. He doesn't have to just replicate one weapon. He could make 20 of each of his most powerful swords etc.



Riverlia said:


> Also to chose the best weapon, Archer would have to consciously search through every single one of them, which is just silly in the heat of battle. That's why both hims and Gil prefer to pull out random one and fire, only choosing some specific ones when the situation call for.



This isn't really a disadvantage, Combine infinite versions of any noble phantasm with Eye of the mind(True) means he can create the perfect counter in a split second.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

err, just maintaining UBW is already taxing, so he cant do that infinitely.
Even if we are talking about infinite prana, it's faster to use those already present instead of projecting more.

And UBW and GOB's power come from number, so...

20 strong sword vs 100 random sword


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Riverlia said:


> err, just maintaining UBW is already taxing, so he cant do that infinitely.
> 
> And UBW and GOB's power come from number.
> 20 of the same weapon vs 100 random weapon, I'm betting on the 100.



Your completely missing my point. I've stated several times that this assumes he has INFINITE or and extremely large amount of Prana. And TBF a full powered Archer and Rin could keep UBW going for a reasonably large amount of time, Considering Archer had enough prana to run it solo without a master and Shirou could only manage it with Rin's help, and there's a good chance Rin alone could have enough prana to run it solo.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

I edited after re-reading your old post, look at my old post

On a side note, it seem this topic got derailed too.
Viva Type Moon thread


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Riverlia said:


> I edited after re-reading your old post, look at my old post
> 
> On a side note, it seem this topic got derailed too.
> Viva Type Moon thread



TBF that's mostly because the outcome was already decided.



Riverlia said:


> And UBW and GOB's power come from number.
> 20 of the same weapon vs 100 random weapon, I'm betting on the 100.



This shouldn't have any factor at all. Shirou tracing weapons doesn't mean he would suddenly produce less weapons than GOB, At the most it would simply mean he would be producing them at the same rate as GoB.


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## Xelloss (Jun 23, 2011)

You are missing 1 point even if he have infinite prana there's a max prana he can channel at a given time, unless he is suicide mode to burn his circuits and counter guardians are 2x as the servant version, according to word of god a pis cis off gil would moop the floor with any servant.


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## Weather (Jun 23, 2011)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand welcome to a Type moon thread....


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Xelloss said:


> You are missing 1 point even if he have infinite prana there's a max prana he can channel at a given time, unless he is suicide mode to burn his circuits and counter guardians are 2x as the servant version, according to word of god a pis cis off gil would moop the floor with any servant.



True but that just means there's a limit he can produce at any one time, so it's pretty much like GoB.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

> This shouldn't have any factor at all. Shirou tracing weapons doesn't mean he would suddenly produce less weapons than GOB, At the most it would simply mean he would be producing them at the same rate as GoB.


The point is that it take time
In the span of time he needed to consciously choose a sword and project 20 copies, he could have lifted up ,say, 100 swords to spam, and with the benefit of diversity.
And no, he wont be faster than GOB if he used UBW the way you described.
UBW was barely faster when Shirou unconsciously call the already-projected exact copy of the swords Gil was using.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 23, 2011)

UBW traces one free copy at speeds beyond what Shirou can, the reason why he was being overwhelmed outside UBW but not inside it is because of this plus the fact he can pick up weapons on the ground "I'm faster". He was'nt being outspammed inside UBW, Gil could have beaten him still but outspamming would not have been possible unless he used something harder to trace or something not traceable by Shirou. He lost to CIS and PIS.

And please keep that bucket and water analogy for CG outside, CGs have no shape or form and stats are raised even beyond what the CGs limits should be. Dark Sakura is a good example of a near CG level prana being, Sakura is a magus but that level of prana is beyond what even Illya showed. CG Archer is an unknown but what we know about Archer and ARC makes it obvious ARC still wins. It takes 7 CGS just to restrain Primate Murder nevermind a near TYPE level being like ARC. Marble Phatasm is still a problem and for all we know using UBW cuts him off from the real world since he's outside the World. If you want to argue power levels or whatever I'm out.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

> He was'nt being outspammed inside UBW, Gil could have beaten him still but outspamming would not have been possible unless he used something harder to trace or something not traceable by Shirou.


Shirou would be out-spammed if he tried projecting a single sword enmass

The process goes from 'call sword(s) already present ---> attack' to 'chose a sword---->multiply it  --->lift/call ----> attack'

He didn't do so of course. so GOB didn't out-spam UBW.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 23, 2011)

Gil does not have multiple copies of the same sword nor does Shirou/Archer have to use the same weapon being projected many times over, he just has to project the exact same thing as it comes out or let his RM do the work for him once. The argument was that UBW can trace weapons fast enough to counter their GOB counterparts showing fast tracing speeds and projection, tracing a destroyed weapon takes time and energy which no one is denying. Unless I've missed the point in all these walls of text somewhere.


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## Riverlia (Jun 23, 2011)

> Unless I've missed the point in all these walls of text somewhere.


Well, I think this is the case 


Spirit King believed UBW can be better than GOB at burst because it can spam multiple copies of the same sword.
I respectfully disagreed.


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Riverlia said:


> Well, I think this is the case
> 
> 
> Spirit King believed UBW can be better than GOB at burst because it can spam multiple copies of the same sword.
> I respectfully disagreed.



My point was in addition to all of his free swords that are already out and can be fired faster than gilgamesh can produce his, he can also produce many more Noble phantasms that he decides to use on top of the ones already laying around. Meaning he can spam faster but also precisely use whatever extra noble phantasms he produces tactically, e.g reproduced on mass his largest AoE noble phantasms as well as firing the Noble phantasm on floor. So he can overwhelm with speed number and superior tactics. Assuming he has enough Prana.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 23, 2011)

^No he can't, his regular tracing is slower and consumes prana which he needs to maintain the bounded field while not straining his circuits, he needs Rin just to use UBW and the fact the game makes it obvious he has to not only keep up with the swordspam but also pull the same weapon Gil does(They're clashing swords while GOB and UBW are clashing simultaneously, you can hear the sound of lots of metal clashing in the background). By this same logic Gil could have just used something Shirou can't trace or used the power of his NPs or combo'd them like he does in Fate against Saber to overwhelm her precog. He chose to test the strength of Shirou's copies against his originals and was shocked they were quite identical, he did'nt have to do that.

Gilgamesh would have won that fight, Shirou would not had the former gotten serious instead of losing his cool and making a mistake without wearing his armor.


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> ^No he can't, his regular tracing is slower and consumes prana which he needs to maintain the bounded field while not straining his circuits, he needs Rin just to use UBW and the fact the game makes it obvious he has to not only keep up with the swordspam but also pull the same weapon Gil does(They're clashing swords while GOB and UBW are clashing simultaneously, you can hear the sound of lots of metal clashing in the background). By this same logic Gil could have just used something Shirou can't trace or used the power of his NPs or combo'd them like he does in Fate against Saber to overwhelm her precog. He chose to test the strength of Shirou's copies against his originals and was shocked they were quite identical, he did'nt have to do that.
> 
> Gilgamesh would have won that fight, Shirou would not had the former gotten serious instead of losing his cool and making a mistake without wearing his armor.



Your missing my point this is all assuming infinite prana. Of course he can't do this to any great degree normally. Besides that Shirou with little mastery over UBW. Archer can summon UBW alone, combined with Rin he'd have a signifant amount of Prana and could probably keep it going a lot longer as well as be able to do to some degree the stuff I was saying. Shirou's only ended because of a shockwave of Prana.

Anyway at what point did I argue Shirou could beat kill under normal circumstances. I'm talking about UBW's burst capabilities in general, not UBW shirou vs Gilgamesh specifically.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 23, 2011)

UBW's burst capabilities have a limit, Archer can summon UBW by himself after he finishes the incantation but his UBW is'nt better either since the only difference is prana capacity between experienced Shirou and beginner Shirou whose discovering his potential. It takes time to trace the basic structure and composition, he has to do those 8 steps. He can't do any better with enhanced prana and prana carrying capacity because it still takes the same time to copy, some longer than others depending on how complicated the NP/mystery is.

No version of Shirou not even Archer can outspam Gil, Gil has more weapons to start with not even including bladed weapons and he just has to project them out while Archer has lesser weapons inside and takes time to remake broken ones that cost more and take time as penalty for breaking a weapon inside the bounded field. No servant can outspam Gil. He's stated to have the firepower of 5+ servants thanks to his GOB's huge stack of treasures.


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## Spirit King (Jun 23, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> UBW's burst capabilities have a limit, Archer can summon UBW by himself but his UBW is'nt better either since the only difference is prana capacity between experienced Shirou and beginner Shirou. It takes time to trace the basic structure and composition, he has to do those 8 steps. He can't do any better with enhanced prana and prana carrying capacity because it still takes the same time to copy, some longer than others depending on how complicated the NP/mystery is.
> 
> No version of Shirou not even Archer can outspam Gil, Gil has more weapons to start with and he just has to project them out while Archer has lesser weapons inside and takes time to remake broken ones that cost more and take time as penalty for breaking a weapon inside the bounded field.



Actually Archer has a very large amount more Prana than Shirou does, hence his prana capacity is ranked B with B level independent action and he can Summon UBW alone whereas Shirou can't do anything close to that. He can most likely properly utilize his above average number of circuits whereas Shirou can bare utilize them at all. 

He also doesn't have to do those 8 steps. Or rather he can do those 8 steps instantly. UBW stores noble phantasms like a gun and archer can fire them. Hence why he do sword spam cage or sword spam in general near instantly. Only with really complex noble phatams or new ones has Archer shown to spend any more than a moment to trace something.

Gilg is limited in how many he can spam at when time, and he doesn't appear to be able to make GoB anywhere near the size of UBW, which is precisely the reason why he was overwhelmed by UBW. He can't fire his weapons at any where near the rate and Shirou can fire his weapons he brings out instantly. He does this often in their fight. He traces large amounts consequectively to opose his swords, mid battle. There's a reason why a large amount of focus is placed on Shirou matching all of gilg's weapons.

You also have to remember Shirou has stared deep into his armoury and  most likely copied hundreds of noble phantasms, hence why Fate Shirou could say Ea was the only sword he could not trace well before Gilg brought it out.


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## DestinyDestroyer (Jun 23, 2011)

this is definetly a victory for Arc, Archer can't do anything. And no, Gaebolg doesn't works with Arc because if you kill her, the planet will bring her back

To destroy Arc for good you have to destroy the earth. Then again, like if Archer or any servant (Gil included) could do that.....


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## Taikou (Jun 23, 2011)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> this is definetly a victory for Arc, Archer can't do anything. And no, Gaebolg doesn't works with Arc because if you kill her, the planet will bring her back
> 
> To destroy Arc for good you have to destroy the earth. Then again, like if Archer or any servant (Gil included) could do that.....



Gil can destroy earth, he has anti-world class weapon Ea.


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## DestinyDestroyer (Jun 23, 2011)

coolstapm said:


> Gil can destroy earth, he has anti-world class weapon Ea.



This is off-topic but there's no way Gilgamesh can bust a planet, not on his own power. Anti-World doesn't mean it's god-forbidden Universe-buster. Ea creates fake layers of space and shows the middle finger to the laws of the universe. This is what makes Ea an anti-world NP.

Although it doesn't makes Enuma Elish any less threatening. On full power it is said Ea destroys the space. Enuma Elish is just like a classic "dimensional slash"

Going by profile and shown feats, Ea destroyed Alexander's Reality Marble. Uncharged Ea is a mountain-buster. At full power, it might be a Continent-Buster

So yeah, it is quite hax, but isn't a planet-buster for sure. Besides, we haven't seen Ea at full power

Back on topic, ArcheType-Earth still rapes. Reality Warping can be a bitch sometimes


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## DestinyDestroyer (Jun 23, 2011)

Tatari said:


> ...



(off-topic) City-buster perhaps?


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## lambda (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm going to assume the only reason this exists is because Red wanted to post Arcueid's image in a somewhat relevant thread.

Still terrible though.


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