# The most overrated Shinobi in the Battledome



## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

Feel free to leave your thoughts below =)

For me:

Itachi Uchiha (living): A relatively ridiculous and poorly thought out Shinobi, the man single handedly destroyed Sasuke's teenage years by turning him into a psychopath who was completely untrusting of everyone and everything, and pretty much hated anything that ever existed, aiming his hatred at whoever crossed him. Sasuke was a very optimistic and loving child growing up, and Itachi single handedly ruined his life. His combat capabilities are also vastly overrated, outside of Genjutsu, he's not all that threatening. Anyone who can break high level genjutsu, stays out of his range or can end the battle immediately would trash him (Deidara's C4, C0 comes to mind, Sasori's poison, Obito's Kamui, Kisamehada, Nagato/Pein, Jiraiya) would make short work of Itachi, especially when he was Ill.

Kakashi Hatake: Some people foolishly put DMS Rikudo Kakashi above Adult Sasuke and Naruto or Kaguya Fight Sasuke and Naruto. He has one notable feat with DMS Rikudo Chakra and that's striking Kaguya, something Naruto and Sasuke managed more than once...
His intelligence is also hilariously overrated, some placing him as the single most intelligent of Shinobi in the entire manga. His intelligence is no higher than that of Madara's, Sasuke's, Shikamaru's and Shikakus.


Don't get me wrong, I think Kakashi is an exceptional shinobi and I think he is a very well developed Shinobi in a lot of respects, but he's just so overrated.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Matty (Sep 13, 2016)

Iruka

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 13, 2016)

This is destined to be locked.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Garcher (Sep 13, 2016)

Minato, Kakashi


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## The_Conqueror (Sep 13, 2016)

Itachi and minato .


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## Alex Payne (Sep 13, 2016)

Kimimaro


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## Bonly (Sep 13, 2016)

inb4 the lock, The Shinobi named speed is the most overrated in the NBD. Otherwise most characters are rated fairly by most people though I have seen Kisame getting overrated more lately as oppose to before hand

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

Sasuke (in some fights) and Gaara.


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2016)

Inb4 lock 
Sound 4 and kimimaro 

Otherwise strangely enough sannin

I've seen far too often he or she is a sannin therefore they win


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Itachi's fans calling other characters overrated , oh my , the irony 
OT :
- *DMS Kakashi* : Kamui GG , Kakashi is stronger than Kaguya , Kakashi blitzed Kaguay oooh shit look Kakashi susanoo is so cool means it's stronger , Kakashi did better than Naruto and Saske combined he solo's them both .....etc etc

*- Itachi* : Itachi solo's
Amaterasu GG
Tsukuyomi GG
Totsuka GG
Yata GG
Aaaaaall the good GG bruh , Itachi is invincible Zetsu said so , shut the fuck up you don't know shit , Kaguya's will knows it all bruh

*- Hashirama* : God of Shinobi dude
SS one shots
Jukai Kotan one shots
Kajukai Korin one shots
Hashirama's clone can beat EMS Sasuke
Hashirama's clone was the strongest in the SA right behind the real Hashirama
He can do that because he's Hashirama
He can dodge that because he's Hashirama
He must have a way to counter that because he's Hashirama

*- Hebi Sasuke* : don't even need to explain .......

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Itachi's fans calling other characters overrated , oh my , the irony
> OT :
> - DMS Kakashi , Itachi , Hashirama , Hebi Sasuke .



Minato as well
Lol hirashin Budda away Gotta make me laugh every time


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Inb4 lock
> Sound 4 and kimimaro
> 
> Otherwise strangely enough sannin
> ...


 
 If anything, Kimimaro is underrated, same as the Sound Four and Tsunade.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> If anything, Kimimaro is underrated, same as the Sound Four and Tsunade.


Yeah , sure , Kimimaru is a solid mid kage level , that was my favorite


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> If anything, Kimimaro is underrated, same as the Sound Four and Tsunade.



Lol suuuuure
When we got a guy who at best is jugo level which is entirely shit being called kage level in any fashion you know I Gotta call BS 

Sound 4 underrated 

Tayuya in cs2 got 1 shotted by chunin temari 

None of them
Can slightly survive 1 on 1 against her 

That's how very weak they are 

I mean jirobo is pure shit , if you think sound 4 are underrated why is it that war arc chunin can shit on all 4 

Case in point war arc kiba murders all 4, as would shino 

Feel free to poll said thread

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Minato as well
> Lol hirashin Budda away Gotta make me laugh every time


True , true , can't deny that


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yeah , sure , Kimimaru is a solid mid kage level , that was my favorite



Right and Hebi Sasuke Chidori blitzes Kimimaro.

But wait, why stop there? P1 Naruto could probably blitz Kimimaro with clones, neg-diff.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Right and Hebi Sasuke Chidori blitzes Kimimaro.
> 
> But wait, why stop there? P1 Naruto could probably blitz Kimimaro with clones, neg-diff.


Totally miss my point .
What a surprise


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Totally miss my point .
> What a surprise



 I assumed what you stated was sarcasm, so I responded back with sarcasm as well.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I assumed what you stated was sarcasm, so I responded back with sarcasm as well.


Him defeating an army of part 01 Naruto's clones doesn't make him a kage shinobi .
His best feat was getting crushed by part 01 Gaara . At most his at / slightly above / around Juugo's level .
You see dear ???


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2016)

Minato by a long shot.

Followed by SM Naruto and MS Kakashi.

Coincidentally the most overrated techniques are their techniques with the same order.
Hiraishin, FRS and Kamui.



Troyse22 said:


> Feel free to leave your thoughts below =)
> 
> For me:
> 
> Itachi Uchiha (living): A relatively ridiculous and poorly thought out Shinobi.



Leaving your purely subjective and wrong opinions aside, Itachi is likely one of the most underrated shinobi in BD.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Disagree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Jad (Sep 13, 2016)

Personally, Orochimaru's durability (toughness). I didn't like how the only arguments in the Guy vs. Orochimaru I got were for me to believe that hype and portrayl would make him survive techniques, just because...full stop.


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## Saru (Sep 13, 2016)

I made a pretty lengthy post about this  

My opinion has shifted quite a bit since then in that I don't think Jiraiya is overrated, but that may be a product of a shift in the NBD metagame/community mindset. What I do think is that many people, much like with Minato, have a tendency to remain unshakable in their estimation of Jiraiya's strength in comparison to other characters and go down the slippery slope of arguing purely from a portrayal standpoint. I think that impairs your ability to look at how abilities matchup and think creatively, and in turn leads to people thinking that certain characters will win against anyone with a "weaker" (which often times means less emphasized rather than "weaker") portrayal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

Pain's instant CST/CT always make me laugh. He is greatly overratedd

Kisame is also incredibly overrated these days, he is nowhere near Itachi or Pain, not even the same tier. The people who say he is a high Kage level make me laugh.

I would say the sannin are also overrated these days, they were underrated one year earlier.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Monna (Sep 13, 2016)

tsunade and sakura


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 13, 2016)

Itachi, probably.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Itachi, probably.


Shame on you


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 13, 2016)

Don't hate me cus u ain't me

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Don't hate me cus u ain't me


#IseeWhatYouDidThere


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 13, 2016)

Itachi is typically the number one person on most peoples list but I think hebi Sasuke and Minato took over that spot.

Hebi Sasuke - People think he stands a chance against people like Jiraiya
Minato/Tobirama - Place these two on the same tier or can beat nagato/pain
Itachi - Self explanatory


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

I appreciate the mods not locking the thread as I believe posts like these are truly relevant to the BD, as they apply to everyone participating in discussion on the battledome

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## LostSelf (Sep 13, 2016)

Sannin in general.

Well, Jiraiya not that much. I find him more underrated than overrated. 

Itachi was overrated, before. If you thought he was overrated, you should've seen him in 2010 with people making legitimate arguments about how he could defeat Galactus .

But right now it's Tsunade and Oro, for me. But it's not like they are overrated. People don't overrate their abilities too much, but they underrate their opponent's or are too "Generous" towards them.

Things with Tsunade avoided 5 Madara's genjutsu off panel. An Assumptiong that goes against Genjutsu hype splashed all over our faces throughout the manga, taken as valid.
C4 won't kill her because it was in genjutsu and Deidara was wrong about his technique. Can Deidara be wrong about his own jutsu? If he is, was he proven wrong?
Ei V2's speed is not a big deal, etc. It's not a big deal, it's a freaking _big _deal considering he's miles faster, can go beyond Sharingan precognition and put faster characters than them (or her) to the defensive. She's slower than Sasuke and lack Sharingan. Yet, it's not a big deal.
Taking boss size Shinra Tensei with chakra to the feet. Method dismissed by the same Katsuyu when they were helping Naruto to fight Deva, who was kicking his ass. Not even Katsuyu took into account that method. But it's taked for granted.
Faster than 6th gated Gai = I do not need to explain why i strongly find this exaggerating her speed to a whole new levels.

Or resort to things that could be extremely outlier and at the same time calling the other guy's feat an outlier: Example - Tsunade outpacing V2 lightened Ei = Valid. Gai outpacing TSB = Outlier (Well, to be honest, all of Gai's amazing feats are considered outlier ).

That's not to say i'm making fun of these claims. Some of those were made by users i extremely like and respect a lot (Like Bonly. I love Bonly ), but i just find them very unfair.

Or using Sannin title to put them above their enemy, when said enemy is way stronger than the Sannin when they got their title, etc.

Of course, that's just my opinion only, and it won't change anybody's mind and i might be one wrong. However, you could say they make their arguments very well.

I also find other things overrated. Like Perfect Susano'o, as i don't think it can take Yagai to the face and tank it. Not even Evening Elephant.
Yasaka Magatama: Itachi's and the mini one Madara used. I don't see Itachi busting CT alone.
Katsuyu: She's so powerful that she's the Sannin. Not Tsunade, she's her summon .

I think that, aside from those two, i don't find any other character overrated anymore, imo. Back then i could've given a detailed response.

Edit: Forgot to add why i find Oro overrated. Well, it's because i see people trying too hard to put him above Itachi, when the same Orochimaru said otherwise. "He's stronger than me" is something you cannot take different. He said Itachi was stronger, period. Maybe war Oro with Hashirama is stronger. But the thing is, we do not know how well would Oro fight forcing them to fight. And he needs Zetsu to control them that efficiently.

Also, i saw Manda beating 8th gated Gai. Not everybody said this, and as much as i respect all claims, this one kicked my "respect all other ones opinions" line and blured it momentarily.

Oh yeah, and Sound 4.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## ARGUS (Sep 13, 2016)

Sannins are by *far *one of the most overrated here 

Followed by Adult Naruto/Sasuke and Then the usual S/T users

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

Totally forgot about the sanninn, they by far and exclusively overrated these days.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Sannins are by *far *one of the most overrated here
> 
> Followed by Adult Naruto/Sasuke and Then the usual S/T users



Idk if Adult Naruto and Sasuke are unreasonably overrated. 

It's outrighted stated that they're the only ones who can challenge and push each other with the exception of total immortals.

I still think Naruto is above Sasuke though, because Kurama hacks


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## Skaddix (Sep 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Right and Hebi Sasuke Chidori blitzes Kimimaro.
> 
> But wait, why stop there? P1 Naruto could probably blitz Kimimaro with clones, neg-diff.



Wouldnt really call what P1 Naruto does blitzing. More Zerg Rushing.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

#NBD

*Some people* :
- Hebi Sasuke beats any Sannin .
- Itachi solos them with a 3ts and a Kunai .
- Deidara , Kisame , and Kakuzo , Hidan , can beat any Sannin .
- part 01 Kakashi beats any Sannin .
- War arc Kakashi solo's them all .

*The Same people* :
- The Sannin trio are way Overrated .

*few posters* :
- Itachi is underrated .

*Me* (Well , not actually me like the one in the picture , i"m way more handsome than that) :

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Itachi solos them with a 3ts and a Kunai


He actualy did that to a sannin in the manga. What else do you want ?



> part 01 Kakashi beats any Sannin



I've been on the forums for almost a decade and I haven't actually heard anyone say this not even once. Its pretty clear that you made this up.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He actualy did that to a sannin in the manga. What else do you want ?


I mean the 3 of them together .
Inb4 , well ..... yeah , why wouldn't he ??


Grimmjowsensei said:


> I've been on the forums for almost a decade and I haven't actually heard anyone say this not even once. Its pretty clear that you made this up.


You know someone named Raikiri19 ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I mean the 3 of them together .



I've never heard anyone say this either. 



> You know someone named Raikiri19 ?


Even he wouldn't say that.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I've been on the forums for almost a decade and I haven't actually heard anyone say this not even once. Its pretty clear that you made this up.


I think he said it once but it's the only exception.


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2016)

It's odd that only one poster so far thinks Itachi is underrated 



I think this thread so far highlights sannin are the most overrated second only to Itachi 

Whose Jutsu have been shown less impressive or critical when compared to hirashin or kamui 

Hirashin is overrated  

By the same guy who thinks Amaterasu the one Jutsu that has like theeee worst showing in the manga is still relevant 

Wonder when hirashin has had bad showings or kamui

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2016)

What's most Hilarious though is Raikage 4th hasn't been mentioned
I mean his speed gets so much hype in BD despite him being slower than minato
Who apparently is overhyped for hirashin
 odd

Despite hirashin being more versatile and being effectively what makes minato faster

The Jutsu which allowed a spec of dust like SM naruto to strike juubito

Feat wise not many Jutsu have been so well used by the author .

minato can be perhaps overhyped but hirashin not s chance I mean it's the 1 Jutsu that basically allows any poster to say he can put up a fight or win depending on your bias against Itachi despite Itachi 6+ shown Jutsu

Hirashin overhyped

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Arles Celes (Sep 13, 2016)

Speed is generally the most overrated.

Hashi when put alone against god tiers.

DMS Kakashi when put against the likes of RSM Naruto or Shinju Madara.

Itachi when put against 2 kage level opponents or more.

And so on...


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 13, 2016)

It's not locked? Well then, I guess I'll share my opinion then. Itachi as a whole is still the most overrated ever, though recently he hasn't been wanked that often. If anything, Kisame has recently been elevated to the most wanked character nowadays. Guy and Lee are also overrated to absurd levels, their usage of the Seventh and Sixth Gates have been completely blown out of proportion.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Him defeating an army of part 01 Naruto's clones doesn't make him a kage shinobi .
> His best feat was getting crushed by part 01 Gaara . At most his at / slightly above / around Juugo's level .
> You see dear ???



Kimimaro was on his deathbed hooked p to an IV tube and he was moving only on sheer will. He was significantly weaker than he would've been if he were Healthy yet his stats are monstrous. His Taijutsu was at a 5, his Speed was at a 4.5, his Ninjustu was at a 4, and his Stamina was a 4.5 despite the severity of his illness and his Databook stats caps at a 30.5 which is far above most Adept Jonin and that's excluding the Cursed Seal as well. He possesses one of the Strongest Kekkei Genkai in the series through his connection with Kaguya, possesses multiple Taijutsu techniques suitable for multiple different situations of which only a Taijutsu master can counter effectively, and was stated to have made the Konoha Invasion go smoothly had Kimimaro been present at that point in time.

He's severely underrated and if you had educated yourself, you'd see why claiming, "Hebi Sasuke shit blitzes Kimimaro" is a ridiculous assertion.

Losing to a Jinchuuriki who was literally the strongest within the Sand Village who had the advantage due to being a long-range fighter doesn't take away from Kimimaro's portrayal at all, especially when the fight itself would've gone much more smoothly had Kimimaro not been ill to begin with.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> It's not locked? Well then, I guess I'll share my opinion then. Itachi as a whole is still the most overrated ever, though recently he hasn't been wanked that often. If anything, Kisame has recently been elevated to the most wanked character nowadays. Guy and Lee are also overrated to absurd levels, their usage of the Seventh and Sixth Gates have been completely blown out of proportion.



 It's more of the fact that Itachi is overrated, so certain individuals choose to ignore the manga altogether and underrate Itachi as a result.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It's more of the fact that Itachi is overrated, so certain individuals choose to ignore the manga altogether and underrate Itachi as a result.


Well , those who downplay Itachi existed in the 1st place as a respons to his wankers/worshipers , can't blame them tbh  
As for Kimimaru , he isn't a kage level , that's what i'm trying to say , i've seen so many cats saying he's a solid mid Kage level , and that is vigoursly overrating him .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It's more of the fact that Itachi is overrated, so certain individuals choose to ignore the manga altogether and underrate Itachi as a result.


 Yeah, I've noticed this too. He is generally overrated, and due to that a bias has been created against him and he is underrated more often now to the point that it feels like people believe any and every Kage-level character can beat him. However, this was born due to him being the most wanked character ever.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> However, this was born due to him being the most wanked character ever.



Says the guy who joined the forums in 2016.

Itachi was never overrated or wanked. Obviously I'm not taking exceptions into account because there have been extreme cases for every character. I'm talking on the general level.

Most hardcore Itachi fans, including myself, have only argued that he is stronger than the Sannin, and is on the same level with Minato.  

If you think thats overrating him, then you obviously don't read the manga or don't know what "overrating" means.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Well , those who downplay Itachi existed in the 1st place as a respons to his wankers/worshipers , can't blame them tbh
> As for Kimimaru , he isn't a kage level , that's what i'm trying to say , i've seen so many cats saying he's a solid mid Kage level , and that is vigoursly overrating him .



He's at least Kage Level. I can't really see how Kimimaro casually shitting all over dozens of Samurai (which composed one of the strongest military forces among the Five Great Shinobi Countries) and caused even a KCM Naruto clone, Kakashi, and Gai some sort of trouble would constitute as Kimimaro being only Jonin Level, especially when he didn't have access to the Cursed Seal or chose not to use it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Says the guy who joined the forums in 2016.


 I've still been apart of the Naruto fanbase community long before I joined this site, so that's irrelevant. 



> Itachi was never overrated or wanked. Obviously I'm not taking exceptions into account because there have been extreme cases for every character. I'm talking on the general level.
> 
> Most hardcore Itachi fans, including myself, have only argued that he is stronger than the Sannin, and is on the same level with Minato.
> 
> If you think thats overrating him, then you obviously don't read the manga or don't know what "overrating" means.


 That's the problem, he might be stronger than some of the Sannin but he is objectively weaker than Minato and Jiraiya. He is flat-out portrayed as lesser than them, especially Minato. He is not even on the same tier as Minato, Minato is canonically portrayed as being far beyond him and the rest of the Sannin. Saying that Minato and Itachi are on the same level is simply false, their hype and feats do not compare at all. And no, I have seen multiple cases of people putting him on Nagato's level as well and believing he can beat the Six Paths of Pain, EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto (at his strongest), ect. As well as a handful of people who have said he can beat Juubito or even Kaguya due to his "invincible" statement. This completely exceeds any and all levels of wank that any character has received, he is by far the most overrated character as a whole. His most hardore fanboys and fangirls view him as some type of messiah as the Narutoverse.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:
			
		

> That's the problem, he might be stronger than some of the Sannin but he is objectively weaker than Minato and *Jiraiya*.


That's what we call underrating him. Both P2 hype and feats don't allow this. The only impressive Jiraya is Sage Jiraya, Jiraya starting in base doesn't stand a cance against Itachi. Not to mention, we are talking about the man who was surpassed against jsut 3 Pains even in SM.


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 13, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> That's what we call underrating him. Both P2 hype and feats don't allow this. The only impressive Jiraya is Sage Jiraya, Jiraya starting in base doesn't stand a cance against Itachi. Not to mention, we are talking about the man who was surpassed against jsut 3 Pains even in SM.


 What does that have to do with anything? I'm talking about Jiraiya as a whole, not just one version of him. What you think about how Jiraiya would fare against Itachi is irrelevant right now, that doesn't change the fact that Jiraiya is portrayed stronger in both Part 1 and Part 2.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Both P2 hype and feats don't allow this.





hbcaptain said:


> Jiraya starting in base doesn't stand a cance against Itachi. Not to mention, we are talking about the man who was surpassed against jsut 3 Pains even in SM.


 



Isaiah13000 said:


> What does that have to do with anything? I'm talking about Jiraiya as a whole, not just one version of him. What you think about how Jiraiya would fare against Itachi is irrelevant right now, that doesn't change the fact that Jiraiya is portrayed stronger in both Part 1 and Part 2.


Exactly

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 13, 2016)

It's still itachi nothing has changed. That happens when posters succumb to the ultimate fanboyism of not wanting to admit he loses even when up against impossible matchups(SM kabuto, pain, obito and minato with knowledge for instance).

I won't say names because this ain't that type of thread but i noticed a couple of posters treating his susanoo like it's PS or something when his genjutsu/amaterasu don't work(again in an attempt to allow him to win every possible match).

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

*


blackguyinpinksuit said:



			It's still itachi nothing has changed. That happens when posters succumb to the ultimate fanboyism of not wanting to admit he loses even when up against impossible matchups(SM kabuto, pain, obito and minato with knowledge for instance).
		
Click to expand...




blackguyinpinksuit said:




I won't say names because this ain't that type of thread but i noticed a couple of posters treating his susanoo like it's PS or something when his genjutsu/amaterasu don't work(again in an attempt to allow him to win every possible match).

Click to expand...

*
I'm gonna church this post 4ever

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Sep 13, 2016)

1 ms kakashi
 Hebi'suke
Kisame


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> What does that have to do with anything? I'm talking about Jiraiya as a whole, not just one version of him. What you think about how Jiraiya would fare against Itachi is irrelevant right now, that doesn't change the fact that Jiraiya is portrayed stronger in both Part 1 and Part 2.


Portrayal :
1-Black Zetsu who witnessed most of Shinobi world battle (DB3) said Itachi is completly invincible when he uses Totsuka and Yata
2- "What stands before Madara's two most trusted, *powerful* forces, Itachi and Nagato..!?" start of Naruto 548
It's true that Obito was impressed by Sage Mode Jiraya's fighting prowess against Pain because he was able to delay Pain but it's a no match compared to Itachi....







*Kabuto:* Uchiha Itachi...He's clearly on another level than the others.

etc, etc, etc

2) SM Jiraya was directly compared to SM Naruto, yet he was hyped beeing weaker than his student according to Pain :


Yet Pain Arc SM Naruto < Kage Summit SM Naruto < Danzo fight MS Sasuke :

*Spoiler*: __ 










In DB4, we knew that Sasuke only surpassed Itachi when he awakened and mastered his EMS, in other words :
Jiraya < Kage Summit Naruto = Danzo fight MS Sasuke < Itachi

All of those feats prove Itachi's obvious superiority but we still rely on a missed page of P1 when Itachi was lying to Kisame and thus saving Jiraya from a hard overkill.

And according to feats, Jiraya starting in base has no way to counter even a single MS technique.

But yeah Jiraya > Itachi......

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Portrayal :
> 1-Black Zetsu who witnessed most of Shinobi world battle (DB3) said Itachi is completly invincible when he uses Totsuka and Yata
> 2- "What stands before Madara's two most trusted, *powerful* forces, Itachi and Nagato..!?" start of Naruto 548
> It's true that Obito was impressed by Sage Mode Jiraya's fighting prowess against Pain because he was able to delay Pain but it's a no match compared to Itachi....
> ...


Sadly this can be destroyed with a panel or two :

And nice way ignoring my reply in the other thread , so i guess i accept your concession .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 13, 2016)

@hbcaptain the same Nagato claimed Jiraiya would have defeated Pain with knowledge. Minato claimed he could not think of a greater shinobi than Jiraiya, Obito claimed Jiraiya was the shinobi that truly defeated him as a version that is considerably more powerful than any of his others, Naruto claimed he was a great shinobi, his nickname has "legendary" attached to it and was said by over a dozen characters in the manga.

This is hype from shinobi more powerful than Itachi, and better hype than you presented overall.

Moreover, you can't use character statements from the character themselves or heartbroken brothers with a hard on for them to dictate hype for the character.

So what you have is a hyperbole statement from BZ who has the worse statement credibility in the manga, and statements from MS Obito who is inferior to Minato, Naruto and Pain whom Jiraiya received great credible hype from.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I've still been apart of the Naruto fanbase community long before I joined this site, so that's irrelevant.


How did that happen ?



> That's the problem, he might be stronger than some of the Sannin but he is objectively weaker than Minato and Jiraiya.



Anyone who claims that Itachi is "objectively weaker" than Jiraiya either haven't read the manga or has issues with reading comprehension.

Itachi's hype, portrayal and feats overshadow Jiraiya by a long shot.



cctr9 said:


> Sadly this can be destroyed with a panel or two :
> 
> And nice way ignoring my reply in the other thread , so i guess i accept your concession .



By that stupid logic, Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> @hbcaptain the same Nagato claimed Jiraiya would have defeated Pain without knowledge. Minato claimed he could not think of a greater shinobi than Jiraiya, Obito claimed Jiraiya was the shinobi that truly defeated him as a version that is considerably more powerful than any of his others, Naruto claimed he was a great shinobi, his nickname has "legendary" attached to it and was said by over a dozen characters in the manga.


That's not strengh hype but accomplishment hype, Obito said Jiraya was above him because his students managed to beat him, Minato claimed he never tought of a greater Shinobi than him because of his behaiviour and actions. It's comparable to *Hashirama sayng Itachi is a greater Shinobi than him*. Those hype argument aren't to be used to compare two characters according to their power.
Pain (who is far weaker than Edo Nagato) claimed he would lose to "*SM*" Jiraya if he has knowledge, but in fact Pain is extremely overrated, his powerful techniques need prepations and conditions which are complitly forgotten in the BD and that's why Sage Jiraya has a chance against him.
Itachi defintly showed enough feats to take on him with Full Knowledge, especially with SM Naruto beating Pains one after another like a mere bugs.



> Moreover, you can't use character statements from the character themselves or heartbroken brothers with a hard on for them to dictate hype for the character.


Or simply Itachi was lyng to Kisame to save Jiraya from a complete overkill. Or Kishi changed his mind during P2. Besides, P1 statements and hype is irrelievant when it's negated by P2, since Itachi tought he was above all when he wa alive, then this famous statement is completly irrelevant.


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## Mithos (Sep 13, 2016)

Kisame and Gai are currently the most overrated in my opinion.


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Says the guy who joined the forums in 2016.
> 
> Itachi was never overrated or wanked. Obviously I'm not taking exceptions into account because there have been extreme cases for every character. I'm talking on the general level.
> 
> ...



this is a fair assessment as someone who dislikes itachi due to fan wank. I would have to say i cant see how i can argue this

what i would still argue which you havent responded to. is how you can say hirashin is overhyped, despite its ridiculous OP achievements. i mean its the 1 jutsu that makes you say minato is on the same level as itachi


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## Kyu (Sep 13, 2016)

Hashirama, since apparently he can take on Toneri & Rinnegan Madara.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> what i would still argue which you havent responded to. is how you can say hirashin is overhyped, despite its ridiculous OP achievements. i mean its the 1 jutsu that makes you say minato is on the same level as itachi


I have no idea what this has to do with me but the reason why I believe it is overrated is because people ignore its shortcomings and pretend like there is no way to work around it.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 13, 2016)

Hype statements should be taken with a grain of salt as 99% of them are ludicrous if you think about it in the end game. I'll go by feats over hype any day. Most of the hype statements got retconned in the end

1) Jiraiya/Itachi/Kisame panel hype - Part 2 Kisame kind of shit all over that as he would give Jiraiya a difficult time alone

2) Sarutobi by hype should be stronger than Hashirama - Hashirama would neg dif

3) Pain praising Jiraiya - I always felt it was more praise to his former master. Granted one can argue Jiraiya could have taken out all six paths with frog song if they were all active. However what Deva showed alone during his fight with Naruto should be enough to show jiraiya gets crushed

4) Black Zetsu on Itachi - Yes Itachi is invincible...just cmon now

We can go on...

Itachi is easily on the tier with the likes of Minato & Tobirama however I put him just slightly below the two. Jiraiya on the hand is an exception as he has the tools to push Itachi to his limits. Plus kishi loves to push MS =SM for the most part. I put Nagato & kabuto a tier(depending on how anal you want to be when breaking down tiers) above Minato/Tobirama/Itachi though. I personally think Jiraiya stands hardly any chance when it comes down to taking out Minato or Tobirama. Way out of his league

Itachi >= Jiraiya

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1 | Dislike 2


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Hashirama, since apparently he can take on Toneri & Rinnegan Madara.


This ^^ , so much this ^^


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I have no idea what this has to do with me but the reason why I believe it is overrated is because people ignore its shortcomings and pretend like there is no way to work around it.



 cuz in this same thread you mentioned hirashin being overrated. when like i said that one jutsu is why you would agree to itachi being same level as minato. 

there are work arounds to every technique, people just tend to look at success rate and hirashin has been a jutsu thats been massively successful in the manga. cant say the same about some MS techniques


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Part 2 Kisame kind of shit all over that as he would give Jiraiya a difficult time alone




The little Tuna fish would've died to one of Jiraiya's most basic techniques , if it wasn't for Itachi's Amaterasu 

Otherwise , we would've never had Kisame in part 02 .
> Says he give Jiraiya a difficult time

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

I mean , we already got the Goddamn answer from his own mouth 


" You *overestimate* me , in the end i already failed " , what' so hard to get ?? 
The manga is already spoon feeding ya !

I should be careful , not to lose many more brain cells


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## Crimson Flam3s (Sep 13, 2016)

I believe Itachi is underrated compared to the likes of Jiraiya and Minato. He has all the tools to take them down, the speed and more importantly the intelligence to come up with a feasible way to do it.

One thing that we all love to forget is that most mangas are not consistent in Hype and Portrayal of feats. Either because the author forgot, or he did not care, or the character got a silent upgrade. 

People tend to choose either feats or portrayals when discussing fights, it's a biased depending if it helps their argument or not. It doesn't make sense to do so when you have conflicting consistency between the 2 but we do it anyways.

In a battle involving, our favorite characters, we will always gravitate towards said character. Even if he has low chances of winning, as long as it's feasible we then come up with a scenario where he/she does. This doesn't mean that he/she will win every time, but that it is possible. Still some people will take that comment to heart as "This is how he wins every single time, 10/10" when it's not really the case.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Sep 13, 2016)

*Very Well Said*:


Crimson Flam3s said:


> People tend to choose either feats or portrayals when discussing fights, it's a biased depending if it helps their argument or not. It doesn't make sense to do so when you have conflicting consistency between the 2 but we do it anyways. In a battle involving, our favorite characters, we will always gravitate towards said character. Even if he has low chances of winning, as long as it's feasible we then come up with a scenario where he/she does. This doesn't mean that he/she will win every time, but that it is possible. Still some people will take that comment to heart as "This is how he wins every single time, 10/10" when it's not really the case.

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Or simply Itachi was lyng to Kisame to save Jiraya from a complete overkill. *Or Kishi changed his mind during P2*


Look at this ^^
The same vague , baseless claims with no sort of evidence to back it up , nothing pure theories that is based on nothing but rampant fanboyism ,
With all respect , i can litrally write paragraphs on how zero sense everything you typed out made and how you could never prove the bolded part even if you went to japan 
Let's see who got saved 




HandfullofNaruto said:


> *Very Well Said*:


OMG !!


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Look at this ^^
> The same vague , baseless claims with no sort of evidence to back it up , nothing pure theories that is based on nothing but rampant fanboyism ,
> With all respect , i can litrally write paragraphs on how zero sense everything you typed out made and how you could never prove the bolded part even if you went to japan
> Let's see who got saved
> ...


Are you aware Itachi was runing away to save Jiraya from an overkill ?


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

There's honestly quite a bit going for Itachi. I agree that @hbcaptain shouldn't have been so dependent on Black Zetsu's statements, but that statement still holds some merit considering Kishimoto was compelled to mention that very same hype within the Databook Entry of his Susano'o. Kishimoto also highlighted the idea through Kakashi that Jiraiya was potentially the reason why the Akatsuki didn't target Naruto in the first place when we're revealed that a huge reason for that was because of Itachi and Obito confirmed that Konohagakure was off limits now that Itachi was out of the way. That very same guy who could cause Minato to struggle was compelled to make a deal with Itachi in-spite of the fact that he was a mere teenager at the time.

We also receive plenty of acknowledgement from characters such as Killer Bee for acknowledging that Itachi wasn't just strong, Orochimaru dejectedly admitting that Itachi was his superior, Chiyo admitting that fighting as a team would be the only way to fight Itachi, Obito confirming that Itachi could've killed him, Kabuto highlighting Itachi as the main reason why Nagato lost the battle, EMS Sasuke considering Itachi as perfect, DSM Kabuto confirming that Itachi had an eye prowess that no one else had (including an Indra Transmigrant) with Itachi being capable of analyzing Kabuto's intentions perfectly, that same ninja who surpassed the level of a Sannin, Onoki indirectly stating that Itachi was a hero for ending Edo Tensei, Rikudou Sasuke mentioning that Itachi was the "True Hokage", and Naruto understanding what it means to be the "True Hokage" and Kishimoto giving us the implication that Naruto had a false understanding of what it meant to be Hokage all along.

Even within their time of their death, both were treated with the utmost respect with Jiraiya being praised by Obito and Pain with Pain alluding to the possibility that Jiraiya could've win. Even Fukasaku went as far as to praise Jiraiya for his efforts and mentioned that no one else could've done what he did against Pain which included Minato. Likewise, Itachi, upon his death, was confirmed to have been able to kill Sasuke had he been serious even with the severity of his illness, was highly respected for the actions he had done with Obito mentioning that he literally had no choice and Obito even acknowledging that he couldn't even imagine what emotional pain Itachi had experienced doing what he did and Obito concluding that the Konohagakure was off-limits. The only difference was that out of sheer respect, Kishimoto went as far as to imply that Itachi could've been as strong as he wanted to be with Zetsu's statement being as vague as "Itachi should've been much stronger" which gave Itachi an aura of invincibility. Whether or not he intended him to be as stronger than Jiraiya, his performances against much stronger individuals that surpass Jiraiya's imagination just cements the fact that Itachi was Jiraiya's superior.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 13, 2016)

Sound 5 and obito are ridiculously overrated

sound 5 got beat by a bunch of new genin yet people think they can beat people like kakashi or hidan.

obito is probably the most overrated since anyone who uses clones can beat him. all the person has to do is use clones, make him teleport those clones and he's screwed. Obitos combat abilities are a joke other than kamui, he literally has nothing to offer. Without both MS hes nothing special and very beatable.

DMS kakashi is overrated as well but i can see how people misinterpret his abilities

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Matty (Sep 13, 2016)

Itachi is generally overrated, but he is also generally underrated. Easily most argued over since I've seen arguments of him being Jonin level to Kaguya level. 

Probably most annoying character to talk about with people along with Sannin and Minato


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

Matty said:


> Itachi is generally overrated, but he is also generally underrated. Easily most argued over since I've seen arguments of him being Jonin level to Kaguya level.
> 
> Probably most annoying character to talk about with people along with Sannin and Minato



 The only reason for that is because Hussain ruins Minato debates altogether.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> There's honestly quite a bit going for Itachi. I agree that @hbcaptain shouldn't have been so dependent on Black Zetsu's statements


Well, I wasn't so dependent on Black Zetsu statement.
Besides, Fuakasaku's statement didn't include dead ninjas, it's similari to Kakashi who was shocked when he heard someone killed Jiraya meanwhile he obviously rank Minato as the numer one among the ninja he has ever he encoutered in his life (Naruto beeing the only one who could surpass him according to him).


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 13, 2016)

kisame is underrated people think he can't even make a water dome without the chakra from the 8 tails when hes got more chakra than nagato. Some believe his attacks cant even inflict damage on the sannin as if they are god tier and can shrug it all off. 

some have said he cant perform jutsu when he fuses with samehada because his hands are webbed like wth


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Well, I wasn't so dependent on Black Zetsu statement.
> Besides, Fuakasaku's statement didn't include dead ninjas, it's similari to Kakashi who was shocked when he heard someone killed Jiraya meanwhile Minato is the strongest ninja ever he encoutered in his life (Naruto beeing the only one who could surpass him according to him).



It's fine, I merely wanted to defend your position. People tend to ignore Zetsu's statement altogether when it has some merit in the first place if Kishimoto felt the need to mention it in the Databook.

Well, Kakashi's statement in context would obviously refer to any alive ninja because he's referring to when Jiraiya was killed which was the present. Fukasaku's statement isn't necessarily referring to any tense. He's just mentioning how no ninja he knew could've done what Jiraiya did.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Side note 

I know discussions can be heated an all that , and this is just one of them , so if anyone feels offended by anything i said in this thread , please accept my apologies .
So :
@UchihaX28
@Icegaze 
@hbcaptain 
@Grimmjowsensei 
@Lord Aizen 
@Matty 
Sorry guys , nothing personal , ya'll great posters

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 1


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Side note
> 
> I know discussions can be heated an all that , and this is just one of them , so if anyone feels offended by anything i said in this thread , please accept my apologies .
> So :
> ...


you said nothing to offend me, say what you please

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Side note
> 
> I know discussions can be heated an all that , and this is just one of them , so if anyone feels offended by anything i said in this thread , please accept my apologies .
> So :
> ...



 That's okay, I wasn't offended at all. I just wanted to get that off my chest.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Side note
> 
> I know discussions can be heated an all that , and this is just one of them , so if anyone feels offended by anything i said in this thread , please accept my apologies .
> So :
> ...


Agree with the two posters above me.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Side note
> 
> I know discussions can be heated an all that , and this is just one of them , so if anyone feels offended by anything i said in this thread , please accept my apologies .
> So :
> ...



I see what you did there


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I see what you did there


BTW  
Now that i remember , since some posters here are considering the Sannin " Overrated " , i actually put some of this on you . 
Yeah , you're responsible for some of it . " Juubi Jinchuuriki Obito vs the Sannin " thread !!!!!!
What the hell were you thinking ??? trynna give the Sannin fans a bad name ???


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> BTW
> Now that i remember , since some posters here are considering the Sannin " Overrated " , i actually put some of this on you .
> Yeah , you're responsible for some of it . " Juubi Jinchuuriki Obito vs the Sannin " thread !!!!!!
> What the hell were you thinking ??? trynna give the Sannin fans a bad name ???



ET unrestricted, people automatically assume ET is restricted  

I'm not gonna point fingers, but don't pretend you don't overrate underrate shinobi

People generally underrate the Sannin, but that's my opinion


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> ET unrestricted, people automatically assume ET is restricted
> 
> I'm not gonna point fingers, but don't pretend you don't overrate underrate shinobi
> 
> *People generally underrate the Sannin*, but that's my opinion


I see what you did there  
The only characters i wank are N&H in the pairing section , that's all 
Whatever . Agree with the bolded part btw


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## Ashi (Sep 13, 2016)

Anyone with a doujutsu

Jinchurikki

Any sannin(seriously let their hype die already I see only Jiraiya live up to it and he was destroyed by pain)


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The only characters i wank are N&H in the pairing section , that's all





Hope you're joking


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

AngelTensa said:


> Any sannin(seriously let their hype die already I see only Jiraiya live up to it and he was destroyed by pain)



Obito was scared of Jiraiya being revived.
Oro can summon a legendary/god tier Shinobi, in an invincible form, along with 3 other high tiers.
Tsunade Hax via Katsuyu, but that's more of a nod to Katsuyu than Tsunade.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Hope you're joking


When i received the alert that you quoted me , i was praying god to be quick and painless  
Well ......... thank god !


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2016)

Used to be Itachi, now I think it's 

1) Physical Speed and Physical Strength (Kishimoto is super inconsistent, but people treat these stats as insurmountable)
2) Edo-Tensei users (due to overrating the tech)
3) Kakashi (due to overrating Kamui)
4) Itachi / Deidara / Kisame [ The former two are due to typical fan wanking and Kisame is due to misunderstanding his ability]

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

AngelTensa said:


> Anyone with a doujutsu
> 
> Jinchurikki


Oh boy


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Used to be Itachi, now I think it's
> 
> 1) Physical Speed and Physical Strength (Kishimoto is super inconsistent, but people treat these stats as insurmountable


Not only speed and strengh, the manga feats in general are pretty inconsistant and exclusively follow the plot.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Edo-Tensei users



Well, I assume you mean Kabuto and Oro.

Kabuto summoned an entire army of very notable shinobi, I think that feat alone is underrated.

Oro summoned the first four Hokage and was able to control Tobirama, Hiruzen and Minato with ease (Although Oro himself admitted Hashirama could break out of it at any time) And that feat is still underrated.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The little Tuna fish would've died to one of Jiraiya's most basic techniques , if it wasn't for Itachi's Amaterasu
> 
> Otherwise , we would've never had Kisame in part 02 .
> > Says he give Jiraiya a difficult time



Still holding on to the early stages of the manga i see. Both characters have evolved greatly from that time frame especially Kisame

If you think Jiraiya is going to dispatch kisame that easily after both there showings than you are fucking delusional

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Still holding on to the early stages of the manga i see. Both characters have evolved greatly from that time frame especially Kisame
> 
> If you think Jiraiya is going to dispatch kisame that easily after both there showings than you are fucking delusional



I'm typically someone who champions Kisame, in fact I put him half a tier above Jiraiya. But Jiraiya is a bad matchup for Kisame. Kisamehada absorbs Sage Chakra, proceeds to turn into a toad. Unless you're suggesting Kisame knows how to control it?


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## Ashi (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Obito was scared of Jiraiya being revived.



Scan?


> Oro can summon a legendary/god tier Shinobi, in an invincible form, along with 3 other high tiers.



I guess Red is pretty hax becaus of his pokemon 



> Tsunade Hax via Katsuyu, but that's more of a nod to Katsuyu than Tsunade.



Katsuyu is probably more overrated than anyone tbh

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Still holding on to the early stages of the manga i see


That early stages of the Manga are canon and they're >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your irrelevant opinion 


Complete_Ownage said:


> Both characters have evolved greatly from that time frame especially


Indeed , Jiraiya superiority was proven even more in part 02
While others got slapped in the face AGAIN  .


Complete_Ownage said:


> If you think Jiraiya is going to dispatch kisame that easily after both there showings than you are fucking delusional


" our levels are far too apart " . Nuff said .
I take the manga and characters statement over fanboys's words , any day of the week  .
Now take back your claims to where they belong . The garbage can that is ........


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## HandfullofNaruto (Sep 13, 2016)

[Insert Female British Accent]
օղϲҽ մԹօղ ɑ Եíʍҽ Եհҽɾҽ աɑՏ ɑ Ӏɑղժ ƒօɾ ɑաɑվ ƒɾօʍ հҽɾҽ ɑղժ Եհҽվ ϲɑӀӀҽժ íԵ Եհҽ ҍɑԵԵӀҽժօʍҽ. Եհҽɾҽ աҽɾҽ Եաօ ՏíժҽՏ ɑղժ ҍօԵհ աҽɾҽ ҽզմɑӀӀվ ѵíϲíօմՏ. Տɑղղíղ ƒɑղՏ & íԵɑϲհí ƒɑղՏ. ҽѵҽɾվ Եíʍҽ ԵհҽՏҽ Եաօ ՏíժҽՏ աɑցҽժ ҍɑԵԵӀҽ Եհҽ ցօժՏ աօմӀժ ϲօʍҽ ժօաղ ɑղժ.. ӀօϲƘ Եհҽ Եհɾҽɑժ. ԵհҽՏҽ ҍɑԵԵӀҽՏ հɑѵҽ ҍҽҽղ ցօíղց օղ ƒօɾ ɑցҽՏ ɑղժ Եհҽɾҽ հɑՏ ղҽѵҽɾ ҍҽҽղ ɑ ϲӀҽɑɾ ѵíϲԵօɾվ ƒօɾ ҽíԵհҽɾ Տíժҽ. *The End*

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 13, 2016)

> cctr9That early stages of the Manga are canon and they're >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your irrelevant opinion



Never denied the early stages of the manga. Yes Jiraiya could have taken out Kisame but thankfully Itachi was there. Manga carries on both characters show off what they got

Jiraiya isn't beating kisame with ease when it's all said and done based off feats



> Indeed , Jiraiya superiority was proven even more in part 02
> While others got slapped in the face AGAIN  .



Jiraiya has always been potrayed superior so whats your point?




> I take the manga and characters statement over fanboys's words , anyday of the week  .
> Now take back your claims to where they belong . The garbage can that is ........



I'll take feats over statements from the beginning days of the manga

Jiraiya still superior to Kisame...yes
Is he going to dispatch Kisame with ease like he did in part 1 based off feats...hell no
Is Jiraiya going to take on Kisame & Itachi without getting murdered in the first 5 mins unless he starts in SM....lolz god no


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

AngelTensa said:


> Scan?
> 
> 
> I guess Red is pretty hax becaus of his pokemon
> ...



I no longer provide scans for people unless it's someone whom I notably respect, because the people I respect take those scans into account.

But i've seen you post after people provide scans you ask for, you simply misinterpret them and troll the other person.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I'm typically someone who champions Kisame, in fact I put him half a tier above Jiraiya. But Jiraiya is a bad matchup for Kisame. Kisamehada absorbs Sage Chakra, proceeds to turn into a toad. Unless you're suggesting Kisame knows how to control it?



Jiraiya is one of my favorite characters but he is not beating kisame with ease as he did back in part one. The question should be how far he pushes Jiraiya before his defeat


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Jiraiya still superior to Kisame...yes
> Is he going to dispatch Kisame with ease like he did in part 1 based off feats...hell no
> Is Jiraiya going to take on Kisame & Itachi without getting murdered in the first 5 mins unless he starts in SM....lolz god no




Kisame could win the match if Jiraiya doesn't start off in SM and the location favors him (open field for example)

Or if Jiraiya starts off in SM, Jiraiya stomps

Edit: ***If Jiraiya starts in SM Kisame stomps, my bad.

For Jiraiya to win though, he'd have to fight in base the whole time.

Super edit: Wtf am I saying, sorry my thoughts are EVERYWHERE rn.

For Kisame to win Jiraiya would have to fight in Base the whole time.

If Jiraiya starts in SM, Jiraiya stomps. My apologies everyone, i'm thinking about a shitload of topics rn.


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## Ashi (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I no longer provide scans for people unless it's someone whom I notably respect, because the people I respect take those scans into account.
> 
> But i've seen you post after people provide scans you ask for, you simply misinterpret them and troll the other person.




"I dont back up my claims because I don't like you!"

Not my problem, 

also rule of thumb, I don't have to agree with anther person's interperation of a scan if I don't find it convincing, and for the record I don't think you're in a position to call me a troll considering you don't even know me that well


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

AngelTensa said:


> "I dont back up my claims because I don't like you!"
> 
> Not my problem



It's not that, it's that you will completely disregard the scan, going as far as to call it a mistranslation or some crap, i've seen you do it before, i'm not digging for a scan for 10 minutes just so you can troll and ignore it.


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## Ashi (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> It's not that, it's that you will completely disregard the scan, going as far as to call it a mistranslation or some crap, i've seen you do it before, i'm not digging for a scan for 10 minutes just so you can troll and ignore it.




Read my lil edit


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Jiraiya has always been potrayed superior so whats your point?


My point is Kisame isn't on Jiraiya's league , and he admitted their levels are *far* too apart .
Your own interpretation of feats holds no water and is irrelevant , even Kisame knows his true standing .
The rest about how they changed and how the manga changed and all that is the same vague claims that you will never be able to prove .
Not by feats .
And certainly not by portrayal .


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> My point is Kisame isn't on Jiraiya's league , and he admitted their levels are *far* too apart .
> Your own interpretation of feats holds no water and is irrelevant , even Kisame knows his true standing .
> The rest about how they changed and how the manga changed and all that is the same vague claims that you will never be able to prove .
> Not by feats .
> And certainly not by portrayal .



Kisame is an entire half tier above Jiraiya, but Jiraiya is a bad matchup for Kisame.

Also, I think you're a great poster, but P1 statements should be taken with a grain of salt, as a lot of them were disregarded due to feats or statements. I mean, remember when Hiruzen was considered the greatest thing since sliced bread?


An example of a bad matchup with Jiraiya and Kisame.

Kisame could low diff Bee, but Jiraiya would get shit stomped by Bee, but SM Jiraiya would shitstomp Kisame, due to Sage chakra screwing Kisame over.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame is an entire half tier above Jiraiya


Some people also believe in Big Foot 


Troyse22 said:


> Also, I think you're a great poster,


Thank you sir ......


Troyse22 said:


> but P1 statements should be taken with a grain of salt


Keep fantasizing .........


Troyse22 said:


> I mean, remember when Hiruzen was considered the greatest thing since sliced bread?


Nothing chaged about Kisame/Jiraiya ---- Jiraiya/Kisame .


Troyse22 said:


> but SM Jiraiya would shitstomp Kisame, due to Sage chakra screwing Kisame over.


 Where's the SM chakra in all this ????


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

@Troyse22
With all due respect my man , the man who thinks the following :
- Kisame mid diffs Itachi .
- Kisame beats Pain .
- Kisame beats Minato .
Should not be talking about " taking things with a grain of salt " .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Some people also believe in Big Foot
> 
> Thank you sir ......
> 
> ...



It's not a fantasy. Plenty changed about Kisame/Jiraiya. Jiraiya had to rush back to save Naruto, and as such, had to time to hop into SM. Also.

IT WAS PART 1, ALMOST EVERYTHING IS DISREGARDED.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> @Troyse22
> With all due respect my man , the man who thinks the following :
> - Kisame mid diffs Itachi .
> - Kisame beats Pain .
> ...



Kisame mid-high diffs Itachi due to knowledge.
Kisame beats Pain, ONLY if the conditions favor him
Kisame beats Minato due to lack of destructive power and one shot capability on Minato's part, the only thing capable of bringing Kisame down.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> IT WAS PART 1, ALMOST EVERYTHING IS DISREGARDED.


Dear lord 
I think i know how this ends up .
I'll pray god that after 1-2 years , we won't be hearing shit like :
- Oh that happened in part 02 , it must be disregarded .
- Man that was during the 4th war when Naruto was like 17 let it go .
- Hey man ! that happened in part 02 , forget about it , it means nothing now .
- Ah ! you mean that shit that happened in part 02 , who cares bruh !

Anyway , i've lost so many brain cells today 
A hot chocolate + a bath + a good night sleep should fix this . ASAP 
Goodnight , will finish this tomorrow


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Dear lord
> I think i know how this ends up .
> I'll pray god that after 1-2 years , we won't be hearing shit like :
> - Oh that happened in part 02 , it must be disregarded .
> ...



No, it's that a TON of stuff in P1 was retconned, making it viewed as an irrelevant part.

Part 2 onwards (MOST) things are consistent, with a few exceptions.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame mid-high diffs Itachi due to knowledge.
> Kisame beats Pain, ONLY if the conditions favor him
> Kisame beats Minato due to lack of destructive power and one shot capability on Minato's part, the only thing capable of bringing Kisame down.





Troyse22 said:


> No, it's that a TON of stuff in P1 was retconned, making it viewed as an irrelevant part.
> 
> Part 2 onwards (MOST) things are consistent, with a few exceptions.


Pretty sure many more of your posts will get " Sig'ed " again

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 13, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> That's not strengh hype but accomplishment hype, Obito said Jiraya was above him because his students managed to beat him, Minato claimed he never tought of a greater Shinobi than him because of his behaiviour and actions. It's comparable to *Hashirama sayng Itachi is a greater Shinobi than him*. Those hype argument aren't to be used to compare two characters according to their power.
> Pain (who is far weaker than Edo Nagato) claimed he would lose to "*SM*" Jiraya if he has knowledge, but in fact Pain is extremely overrated, his powerful techniques need prepations and conditions which are complitly forgotten in the BD and that's why Sage Jiraya has a chance against him.
> Itachi defintly showed enough feats to take on him with Full Knowledge, especially with SM Naruto beating Pains one after another like a mere bugs.
> 
> ...


Hashirama's statement was to ensure Sasuke knew that Hashirama had no ill intentions toward him, and to calm down someone who just activated EMS. I mean this was obvious to anyone with any level of social intelligence.

It's exactly what I was talking about with credible hype. That's not credible, it's absurd. Madara was an inferior shinobi compared to Hashirama, and he's Madara.

Granted, the Obito hype for Jiraiya can be attributed to his ability to train fine students, but what we do know is he brought Jiraiya's name up at the time of defeat, meaning he respected him more than originally thought.

Minato claimed he wanted to fight Jiraiya in that same conversation, Minato was a competitive shinobi despite how he came across in serious situations. That comment wasn't just about his behavior or valor, it was about his ablity as a shinobi.

Pain is extremely overrated? The fuck are you talking about. Most people have that group exactly where they should be- high kage class, which Living Itachi is not in in my humble opinion.

Don't bring up Pain's bodies going down when Pain had no knowledge on SM Naruto or his arsenal and could not use a single lethal attack against him at any point whatsoever, not to mention Deva being completely powerless for more than half the fucking battle and regaining his power when only two paths were left, and still landing CT on a version of Naruto (KN6) that is superior to V2 KIller Bee by itself.

Bottom line, hype from Nagato & Minato put him above Itachi's hype, not even considering the fact he was one of the three strongest shinobi of his era and legendary is attached to his name for all history.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Dear lord
> I think i know how this ends up .
> I'll pray god that after 1-2 years , we won't be hearing shit like :
> - Oh that happened in part 02 , it must be disregarded .
> ...



You usually take whichever feats benefit your crappy argument the most, and call the feats from the counter argument irrelevant or misinterpreted in order to further boost your biased view. Shouldn't be acting like the victim.

Part 2 came after part 1 and anything that conflicts between them, the priority should be given to part 2 considering that it's the latest development. If kishimoto decided to overwrite an idea that he presented 5 years ago, then accept it, instead of acting like outdated hype, not even feats, is relevant.

Sometimes authors express hype through their characters, doesn't really mean that it is 100% correct, but it proves that the people in said world actually believe whatever that hype might be, even if it's not accurate.

Kisame had never fought Jiraiya before or probably did not even witness a battle, there was no way for him to know for sure. We don't even know if he had developed his Dome or samehada fusion by part 1( Or do we? maybe I'm forgetting a chapter or databook mention)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 13, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Portrayal :
> 1-Black Zetsu who witnessed most of Shinobi world battle (DB3) said Itachi is completly invincible when he uses Totsuka and Yata
> 2- "What stands before Madara's two most trusted, *powerful* forces, Itachi and Nagato..!?" start of Naruto 548
> It's true that Obito was impressed by Sage Mode Jiraya's fighting prowess against Pain because he was able to delay Pain but it's a no match compared to Itachi....
> ...



DaVizWiz soloed this response already.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> How did that happen?


 What exactly are you asking?





> Anyone who claims that Itachi is "objectively weaker" than Jiraiya either haven't read the manga or has issues with reading comprehension.
> 
> Itachi's hype, portrayal and feats overshadow Jiraiya by a long shot.


 DaVizWiz's post already soloed any notion that Itachi > Jiraiya, and Jiraiya being superior was already cemented in the Manga itself. I have no interest in having another endless debate with another hardcore Itachi fan about Jiraiya versus Itachi.  I'm burnt out, and won't waste my time since you will not agree anyway.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 14, 2016)

Depends on what era you're talking about, if this was 2010 I'd say Itachi/Jiraiya, but now it's probably Tsunade/Sakura.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> What exactly are you asking?


How were you a part of community without being a member ? 



> [
> DaVizWiz's post already soloed any notion that Itachi > Jiraiya,


He is in my ignore list, and for a good reason too.



> and Jiraiya being superior was already cemented in the Manga itself/QUOTE]
> 
> Where was this "cemented" ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> cuz in this same thread you mentioned hirashin being overrated. when like i said that one jutsu is why you would agree to itachi being same level as minato.
> 
> there are work arounds to every technique, people just tend to look at success rate and hirashin has been a jutsu thats been massively successful in the manga. cant say the same about some MS techniques



I have o idea why you are having difficulty understanding what I said.

I never said Hiraishin is a shit technique, I acknowledge that it is very strong. I'm just saying that people overrate it to the degree that it is way too blown out of proportion.

It is already strong without anyone needing to overrate it.

Hiraishin has been successful mostly because Minato fought people who didn't know what to do against it or people who had 0 knowledge on it.

This is similar to taking Itachi's encounters against Orochimaru and Deidara into account and evaluating the success of 3 tomoe genjutsu only based on that.
Against people who have counters, or have knowledge, it isn't going to be as successful as it was in those encounters.
It is just common sense. I just want Minato/Hiraishin wankers to acknowledge that.


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## Santoryu (Sep 14, 2016)

Every popular character. 

Kakashi too strong


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 14, 2016)

I wouldn't say Tsunade is the most overrated because, as always, there are only a handful of people who usually discuss topics in her favour. The majority do not. It's a minority of people who overrate her, ultimately.

I think a lot of people would say Sannin are over-rated because a lot of arguments go " They are Sannin, and therefore they win " but .. quite simply, this was just as much Kishimoto's reasoning as it was anyone in the BDs. Kisame: "'Jiraiya is a Sannin, therefore he is stronger than me "
Part I Kakashi, after seeing Orochimaru: " A Sannin! *shits pants* "

Sannin aren't that widely overrated tbh.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ashi (Sep 14, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I wouldn't say Tsunade is the most overrated because, as always, there are only a handful of people who usually discuss topics in her favour. The majority do not. It's a minority of people who overrate her, ultimately.




Is this projection


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I have o idea why you are having difficulty understanding what I said.
> 
> I never said Hiraishin is a shit technique, I acknowledge that it is very strong. I'm just saying that people overrate it to the degree that it is way too blown out of proportion.
> 
> ...




Obito had knowledge
A had knowledge
Juubito had knowledge

Sorry who exactly did he fight who had no knowledge am really confused by the rubbish you wrote

 are you saying you have never once said 3T solo'd oro as an argument oh really ? 

Kettle say hi to pot 

I wonder despite juubito knowledge why it took him about what 3 times to stop getting trolled by it 

A got trolled by it all his life to the point even with back up he felt minato could not be defeated . Or do you not factor in character hype if it isn't Itachi being discussed ?

Counters are far less common and knowledge so far everyone faced has had knowledge of it


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> You usually take whichever feats benefit your crappy argument the most,


Or , i actually use the Manga , canon statements to prove my point .
Something neither you , nor Complete-Ownage are able to do anything about it 
You just continue to spew your usual nonsense and how , hurr durr , part 01 should be taken with a grain of salt . Hurr durr we consider feat .... etc etc 
As if :
- Feats are by your side 
- Or portrayal are by your side .
Neither of which are by your side , so you continue with this garbage vague baseless claims 


Crimson Flam3s said:


> and call the feats from the counter argument irrelevant or misinterpreted


No , i don't call the feats irrelevant or useless 
The way you interept feats and manga =/= the manga itself .


Crimson Flam3s said:


> your biased view


The irony  
You're talking about bias ?? pfffffffffff please 


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Part 2 came after part 1 and anything that conflicts between them, the priority should be given to part 2 considering that it's the latest development. If kishimoto decided to overwrite an idea that he presented 5 years ago, then accept it, instead of acting like outdated hype, not even feats, is relevant.


Translation : " i don't have any counter for what is clearly drawn on panel in front of my eyes , so i resort to using this stupid ass arguments because , what else to do ?? " 
Not only you can not prove a crap of what you guys say , but the Manga slapped you guys in the face again even in part 02 .
Deal . With . It  


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Sometimes authors express hype through their characters, doesn't really mean that it is 100% correct, but it proves that the people in said world actually believe whatever that hype might be, even if it's not accurate.


And this sounds like something a man with no argument or no answer for what's drawn on panel , would pull out of his ass 


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Kisame had never fought Jiraiya before or probably did not even witness a battle, there was no way for him to know for sure. We don't even know if he had developed his Dome or samehada fusion by part 1( Or do we? maybe I'm forgetting a chapter or databook mention)


No worries , Kishi took this in consideration , in both part 01 and part 02 . Where Jiraiya was taking on Pain the leader of the Akatsuki and was said to be able to win if Pain didn't keep some " secrets " for himself .
- They say things changed in part 02 , haha , Alright then bud . Lmao , Kisame is a bug to Pain  
And then you got all the hype in part 02 , from Nagato , Pain , Obito himself twice , Black Zetsu , Konan , Minato , Kakashi ..... etc etc .
Lmao , where's the Tuna fish in all this ??? lol


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He is in my ignore list, and for a good reason too.


Mmmmm . was that the " Kakashi vs Deidara " thread ?? 5 years ago ??


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 14, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> You usually take whichever feats benefit your crappy argument the most, and call the feats from the counter argument irrelevant or misinterpreted in order to further boost your biased view. Shouldn't be acting like the victim.
> 
> Part 2 came after part 1 and anything that conflicts between them, the priority should be given to part 2 considering that it's the latest development. If kishimoto decided to overwrite an idea that he presented 5 years ago, then accept it, instead of acting like outdated hype, not even feats, is relevant.



Pretty much this. He thinks adding in his childness use of emoji's in damn near every most make his point come through more... you just look like an asshat



cctr9 said:


> Or , i actually use the Manga , canon statements to prove my point .
> Something neither you , nor Complete-Ownage are able to do anything about it
> You just continue to spew your usual nonsense and how , hurr durr , part 01 should be taken with a grain of salt . Hurr durr we consider feat .... etc etc



I still have no idea what your even arguing about. Everyone knows Jiraiya is stronger than Kisame by hype and feats...You act like Jiraiya is going to ragdoll kisame since you hang onto part 1 feats when kishi went ahead and developed both characters massively in part 2

Crimson Flame explains it perfectly


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Pretty much this. He thinks adding in his childness use of emoji's in damn near every most make his point come through more... you just look like an asshat


I use emojis in almost all of my posts yes .
Why ?? because i can . Problem ??


Complete_Ownage said:


> I still have no idea what your even arguing about. Everyone knows Jiraiya is stronger than Kisame by hype and feats...You act like Jiraiya is going to ragdoll kisame since *you hang onto part 1 feats when kishi went ahead and developed both characters massively in part 2*


And i already told you , Jiraiya _comfortably_ beats him , by feats and portrayal , he almost killed him with only one of his most basic techniques . did he not ???
And stop bringing up the bolded part as if it somehow helps your argument lol . In part 02 Jiraiya was still portrayed far above him , by feats , and by hype , so he still beats him wih ease .
Believe whatever you want , i really don't care 


Complete_Ownage said:


> Crimson Flame explains it perfectly


Sure thing ......


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## Turrin (Sep 14, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Well, I assume you mean Kabuto and Oro.
> 
> Kabuto summoned an entire army of very notable shinobi, I think that feat alone is underrated.
> 
> Oro summoned the first four Hokage and was able to control Tobirama, Hiruzen and Minato with ease (Although Oro himself admitted Hashirama could break out of it at any time) And that feat is still underrated.


Kabuto summoned an army with an enormous amount of prep; an army which he couldn't control effectively leading to the Tensei being able to release themselves, until he was able to use Anko's body as a battery and even then some of the Tensei still defied him or jobbed. So it's a great accomplishment, but it's extremely situational just like Konan's paper ocean. 

Orochimaru only showed he could control the Hokages so far as stopping Tobirama's movements by placing all of his attention on Tobirama. He never showed he could command any of them in battle effectively, let alone all of them.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Kabuto summoned an army with an enormous amount of prep; an army which he couldn't control effectively leading to the Tensei being able to release themselves, until he was able to use Anko's body as a battery and even then some of the Tensei still defied him or jobbed. So it's a great accomplishment, but it's extremely situational just like Konan's paper ocean.
> 
> Orochimaru only showed he could control the Hokages so far as stopping Tobirama's movements by placing all of his attention on Tobirama. He never showed he could command any of them in battle effectively, let alone all of them.



That wasn't all of his attention wtf. And he could suppress their personalities at any time to stop resistance with the exception of Hashirama


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

AngelTensa said:


> Scan?
> 
> 
> I guess Red is pretty hax becaus of his pokemon
> ...




Don't bother, the scan suggested absolutely nothing that suggests that Obito was afraid of Jiraiya. It's fanfic. 

He just didn't want Kabuto gaining more power.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> And i already told you , Jiraiya _comfortably_ beats him , by feats and portrayal



Jiraiya shits in his mouth because Kisame turns into a toad


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiya shits in his mouth because Kisame turns into a toad


Ok


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Don't bother, the scan suggested absolutely nothing that suggests that Obito was afraid of Jiraiya. It's fanfic.
> 
> He just didn't want Kabuto gaining more power.



Obito was worried that Jiraiya would break free from Kabuto's control, suggesting that if he does he would be a major threat. And suggesting that Jiraiya could is a testament to his power. Obito was scared of Jiraiya being able to break free from Kabuto's control, it had little to do with Kabuto gaining more power.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

lol'd at people saying Jiraiya's toad stomach tech was going to kill Kisame. 

Kisame could've summoned thousands of sharks and eat the stomach inside out or use his ultimate tech at Jiraiya sitting still on the floor, or even flood the entire fucking area. 


Kisame's words to Itachi was only based on REPUTATION. He even stated that his reputation pales in comparison. 

It's simple shit, people.....


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> lol'd at people saying Jiraiya's toad stomach tech was going to kill Kisame.
> 
> Kisame could've summoned thousands of sharks and eat the stomach inside out or use his ultimate tech at Jiraiya sitting still on the floor, or even flood the entire fucking area.
> 
> ...



Kisame shits on Jiraiya outside of SM absorption, the only way Kisame loses is when Kisamehada absorbs sage chakra and turns into a toad.

If we some how restrict Kisame turning into a toad, Kisame beats in Jiraiya in a mid-high diff battle.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Obito was worried that Jiraiya would break free from Kabuto's control, suggesting that if he does he would be a major threat. And suggesting that Jiraiya could is a testament to his power. Obito was scared of Jiraiya being able to break free from Kabuto's control, it had little to do with Kabuto gaining more power.



That's entirely fanfic. I saw the panels..Nothing suggested that at all....Literally nothing.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame shits on Jiraiya outside of SM absorption, the only way Kisame loses is when Kisamehada absorbs sage chakra and turns into a toad.
> 
> If we some how restrict Kisame turning into a toad, Kisame beats in Jiraiya in a mid-high diff battle.




Assuming Jiraiya enters SM.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That's entirely fanfic. I saw the panels..Nothing suggested that at all....Literally nothing.



Your interpretation of the panels is poor to say the least, but it's your interpretation none the less, agree to disagree?


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Your interpretation of the panels is poor to say the least, but it's your interpretation none the less, agree to disagree?




Not sure how you even managed to get that interpretation of yours. But you're welcome to stick with that twisted version.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure how you even managed to get that interpretation of yours. But you're welcome to stick with that twisted version.





It's not a twisted version, it's manga fact, I assume you and Ninja....nvm no callouts.

But I assume you get along particularly well with a CERTAIN person, as you have the same poor interpretation of panels and obvious trolling "style"


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> lol'd at people saying Jiraiya's toad stomach tech was going to kill Kisame.
> 
> Kisame could've summoned thousands of sharks and eat the stomach inside out or use his ultimate tech at Jiraiya sitting still on the floor, or even flood the entire fucking area.


 
Are you blind ???

Wouldn't/couldn't/Shouldn't  LMAO !!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That being said , I also find 7G Gai to be extremely wanked these days , his performance against JJ Madara is being vigorously overrated by many people tbh 
He didn't really do anything special .
With all due respect @LostSelf


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> It's not a twisted version, it's manga fact, I assume you and Ninja....nvm no callouts.
> 
> But I assume you get along particularly well with a CERTAIN person, as you have the same poor interpretation of panels and obvious trolling "style"





For others who are wondering.....

Here's the panel in question.





Not sure how you got from this panel into this

"Obito was worried that Jiraiya would break free from Kabuto's control, suggesting that if he does he would be a major threat. And suggesting that Jiraiya could is a testament to his power. Obito was scared of Jiraiya being able to break free from Kabuto's control, it had little to do with Kabuto gaining more power."

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Are you blind ???
> 
> Wouldn't/couldn't/Shouldn't  LMAO !!!
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...





I am curious how the toad stomach will react after Kisame uses this.






Or this 1000 sharks eating the stomach and everyone inside it.


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I am curious how the toad stomach will react after Kisame uses this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like how he did on panel ?? Oh wait 
He would've been dead in no time


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Like how he did on panel ?? Oh wait
> He would've been dead in no time






Part 2 > Part 1. Kishi probably didn't even know Kisame had those techniques.


Additionally, even if Kishi did decide by PART 1 that Kisame had those techniques, using those techniques will put everyone  there in danger, including Naruto. Amateratsu was the safest and most efficient option of escaping.

You can post the same scan all you want. It's only going to show that you have zero argument at all and how childish you are.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Part 2 > Part 1. Kishi probably didn't even know Kisame had those techniques.
> 
> 
> Additionally, even if Kishi did decide by PART 1 that Kisame had those techniques, using those techniques will put everyone  there in danger, including Naruto. Amateratsu was the safest and most efficient option of escaping.
> ...



Part 2 isn't > part 1
However the statement kisame made was more or less retcon agreed 
In the same way kisame got to show better abilities so did the sannin 
Hence best thing to use is feats 
To which more often than not jiriaya wins , oro depends your bias and tsunade more often than not looses

Think that's the fairest assessment one can give in regards to kisame vs a sannin 

In regards to the quality of their Jutsu there isn't any reason to claim he isn't on their general level however

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Obito had knowledge
> A had knowledge
> Juubito had knowledge


Obito didn't have knowledge.
A had limited knowledge.
Juubito didn't care, and Minato never fought him directly anyways.



> Sorry who exactly did he fight who had no knowledge am really confused by the rubbish you wrote



Gotta read the manga brah.



> are you saying you have never once said 3T solo'd oro as an argument oh really ?
> 
> Kettle say hi to pot


reading comprehension brah, it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.



> I wonder despite juubito knowledge why it took him about what 3 times to stop getting trolled by it


When did Minato troll Juubito ?



> A got trolled by it all his life to the point even with back up he felt minato could not be defeated . Or do you not factor in character hype if it isn't Itachi being discussed ?



A got trolled once, when he had limited knowledge.
Then we actually have no idea how the fights went, but it is clear that A wasn't able to get around Hiraishin.
But at the same time, we also know that Minato wasn't able to do anything to A either.
I'm confused with the "trolled" part.



> Counters are far less common and knowledge so far everyone faced has had knowledge of it



I never claimed that countering Hiraishin is easy.

I'm just saying that Minato wankers like yourself need to take into account that there are certain situations where Hiraishin will be less effective, depending on the skillset and knowledge of the opponent he faces. Thats just common sense.

Hiraishin isn't just some invincible thing, it has shortcomings like every other high level jutsu.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 14, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> *I wouldn't say Tsunade is the most overrated* because, as always, there are only a handful of people who usually discuss topics in her favour. The majority do not. It's a minority of people who overrate her, ultimately.
> 
> I think a lot of people would say Sannin are over-rated because a lot of arguments go " They are Sannin, and therefore they win " but .. quite simply, this was just as much Kishimoto's reasoning as it was anyone in the BDs. Kisame: "'Jiraiya is a Sannin, therefore he is stronger than me "
> Part I Kakashi, after seeing Orochimaru: " A Sannin! *shits pants* "
> ...


Kakashi fandom might only have 1 Raikiri19, but Tsunade/Sakura fandom has about 5.

You need to understand that there is a huge difference in power-levels from Part 1 to Part 2. The Sannin being equivalent to each other was only their base portrayals. SM Jiraiya, ET Orochimaru are leagues ahead of Tsunade at her peak in the manga. As a cohesive unit, I'd say they are stronger than all of the Gokage that fought Madara (granted Tsunade was also apart of that), but she would be more efficient with her teammates than 4 random high levelers.


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito didn't have knowledge.
> A had limited knowledge.
> Juubito didn't care, and Minato never fought him directly anyways.
> 
> ...



 
Obito the student of minato 
Didn't know minato has hirashin despite minato giving Kakashi a hirashin Kunai when they were younger 

And even says hirashin oh he must have marked me after he got blitz for the second time . That implies knowledge . 

Lol so A never cared every time he lost to the point he thought minato was the stuff of legend . I would care if I spent my time loosing to someone 

A thought minato was legend , Minqto didn't or even care to mention him . A oh he faster me , oh I thought he was the saviour . Doesn't imply equality 


 coming from Amaterasu wanker hilarious 

You making stuff up assuming A didn't care and straight out lying assuming minato own student didn't know the technique even fodders knew Minato for

Everyone basically knows hirashin . Obito even runs play by play , oh he went to that Kunai 

Not what!! How did he disappear , what did he do . 

Notice the difference ?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 14, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi fandom might only have 1 Raikiri19, but Tsunade/Sakura fandom has about 5.
> 
> You need to understand that there is a huge difference in power-levels from Part 1 to Part 2. The Sannin being equivalent to each other was only their base portrayals. SM Jiraiya, ET Orochimaru are leagues ahead of Tsunade at her peak in the manga. As a cohesive unit, I'd say they are stronger than all of the Gokage that fought Madara (granted Tsunade was also apart of that), but she would be more efficient with her teammates than 4 random high levelers.



 The fact that Pain mentioned that "each Sannin had their own secret technique" making the implication that they were viewed on the same level.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> The fact that Pain mentioned that "each Sannin had their own secret technique" making the implication that they were viewed on the same level.


It just shows that each Sannin had their own specialty not that all specialties were viewed on equal levels as each other. Orochimaru w/Snakes, Tsunade w/Slugs and Jiraiya w/Toads.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Obito the student of minato


Thats a retcon though. At the time it was just the masked man.


> Didn't know minato has hirashin despite minato giving Kakashi a hirashin Kunai when they were younger
> And even says hirashin oh he must have marked me after he got blitz for the second time . That implies knowledge .


He tried to capture Minato with chains. Please stop, you are embarassing yourself.



> Lol so A never cared every time he lost to the point he thought minato was the stuff of legend . I would care if I spent my time loosing to someone
> 
> A thought minato was legend , Minqto didn't or even care to mention him . A oh he faster me , oh I thought he was the saviour . Doesn't imply equality


Did A really use the word "legend" ?
Anyways, I never said they were equals, A accepted the fact that Minato was superior and the manga portrayed Minato to be superior as well.


> coming from Amaterasu wanker hilarious


Is there a thing as Amaterasu wanker now ? 



> You making stuff up assuming A didn't care and straight out lying assuming minato own student didn't know the technique even fodders knew Minato for
> 
> Everyone basically knows hirashin . Obito even runs play by play , oh he went to that Kunai
> According the manga the opponents Minato fought clearly didn't.



A never saw Minato in action up until that point. He simply charged inside Minato's perimeter of marked kunai and was surprised when Minato dodged and and teleported behind his back and had no idea Minato could mark a spot he touched, thats why he never thought there was a chance Minato could teleport to B.
A clearly had very limited knowledge on Minato and Hiraishin. 

As for Obito, like I said it was clearly a retcon. 

And even if you think it wasn't, then Obito clearly didn't know anything about how Hiraishin worked because he tried to capture Minato with chains after witnessing him teleport away, and then he was genuinely surprised when Minato teleported to the kunai behind him.


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats a retcon though. At the time it was just the masked man.
> 
> He tried to capture Minato with chains. Please stop, you are embarassing yourself.
> 
> ...



 the masked man knew hirashin as he called it by name . He even says hirashin he must have marked me . Do you need scans ??

Lol yes Amaterasu wanker = you 

Limited knowledge =/= 0 knowledge as you claimed . I accept your concession on that 

The same masked man again by name used the following words 

- hirashin he said it by name 

- he flew to that Kunai . 

And even says to kushina if she knows how long he has waited to separate them and says he isn't surprised minato marked kushina as well 

I mean it's all in the manga buddy. I will post scans shortly

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> the masked man knew hirashin as he called it by name . He even says hirashin he must have marked me . Do you need scans ??



This logic is so stupid that I don't know how I can respond to it.
Its like saying as long as you know someone's name, you know them very well.

Seriously dude, just stop. 
It was pretty clear that the masked man didn't exactly know how Hiraishin worked or what it was capable of.


> Lol yes Amaterasu wanker = you


Care to prove this ? Or are you just talking out of your ass like you always do when get too emotional ? 


> Limited knowledge =/= 0 knowledge as you claimed . I accept your concession on that


Ok, whatever helps you sleep at night.



> The same masked man again by name used the following words
> 
> - hirashin he said it by name
> 
> ...



Read above and stop grasping at straws. Its not too hard to realize that you were wrong and accept it. Otherwise you'll never grow.


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> This logic is so stupid that I don't know how I can respond to it.
> Its like saying as long as you know someone's name, you know them very well.
> 
> Seriously dude, just stop.
> ...



 coming from King of 

Claiming they had zero knowledge
Gets proven wrong and starts whining 

Awww it's Kk padawan, next time

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> coming from King of
> 
> Claiming they had zero knowledge
> Gets proven wrong and starts whining
> ...



Dude seriously, sometimes you have to accept the fact that you may be wrong. Its not the end of the world, we are all human we make mistakes. But you can't grow or learn from your mistakes if you don't accept your situation. 
Insulting me won't make my argument any worse or yours any better for that matter.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ashi (Sep 14, 2016)

Im pretty sure Obito had knowledge on his sensei's signature tech 

Also it seemed like that wasn't the first time A and Minato fought, could be wrong on that tho


EDIT: This man did not just call Tobi being Obito a retcon


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

You are wrong on both accounts. But I'm surprised.


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## Ashi (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are wrong on both accounts. But I'm surprised.



Even rin knew tho

And that was the first time A fought but he still has knowledge on that jutsu


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 14, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It just shows that each Sannin had their own specialty not that all specialties were viewed on equal levels as each other. Orochimaru w/Snakes, Tsunade w/Slugs and Jiraiya w/Toads.



I'm referring to the fact that Kishimoto went out his way to establish that Tsunade also had a hidden technique would suggest that he viewed them as equals. You could argue that their specialties weren't equal, but I highly doubt it. There's nothing suggesting that his view of the Sannin changed and Tsunade's special technique is considered to be just as amazing as Sage Mode and the White Snake Power.

For instance:


  Sage Mode is a specialty that augments a user's own capabilities using natural energy, an energy source that Juubi Jin are dependent on, and only a select few are capable mastering this.
  The White Snake Power is a technique that could only be attained through Orochimaru's extensive research on ninjutsu.
  Byakugou is the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu which only a select few are capable of achieving and replicates the God of Shinobi's own regeneration that was particularly exclusive to him.

They're all special in their own way that I wouldn't even argue that Tsunade's ability as a ninja is inferior to all of the others. If anything, Kishimoto went to great lengths to prove that Tsunade was just as capable as the other Sannin, constantly emphasizing how Tsunade's not a just a mere support ninja, but actually a ninja that can perform extraordinarily well in combat if need be.


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## Ashi (Sep 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm referring to the fact that Kishimoto went out his way to establish that Tsunade also had a hidden technique would suggest that he viewed them as equals. You could argue that their specialties weren't equal, but I highly doubt it. There's nothing suggesting that his view of the Sannin changed and Tsunade's special technique is considered to be just as amazing as Sage Mode and the White Snake Power.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> ...




You're lookin too deep man


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 14, 2016)

AngelTensa said:


> You're lookin too deep man



 What's wrong with that? This manga is some deep shit bro.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 14, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi fandom might only have 1 Raikiri19, but Tsunade/Sakura fandom has about 5.
> 
> You need to understand that there is a huge difference in power-levels from Part 1 to Part 2. The Sannin being equivalent to each other was only their base portrayals. SM Jiraiya, ET Orochimaru are leagues ahead of Tsunade at her peak in the manga. As a cohesive unit, I'd say they are stronger than all of the Gokage that fought Madara (granted Tsunade was also apart of that), but she would be more efficient with her teammates than 4 random high levelers.



And I wouldn't accuse Kakashi of being the most over-rated either, for that same reason.

I think you're incorrect about the second point. They're all still about equal, power-wise. Orochimaru with ET is the only one who is considerably stronger.


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## Skaddix (Sep 14, 2016)

Not surprising A didnt know much about Hirashin. Minato has a super high kill rate.

Tsunade looks worse because she never showed much Elemental Ninjutsu. Despite having affinities in Raiton....and I assume Doton and Suiton.


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude seriously, sometimes you have to accept the fact that you may be wrong. Its not the end of the world, we are all human we make mistakes. But you can't grow or learn from your mistakes if you don't accept your situation.
> Insulting me won't make my argument any worse or yours any better for that matter.



Says the guy who started the insults 


Even if we are to assume masked man is a retcon juubito most certainly knew about hirashin 
Since by war arc masked man was obito 

Still got blitz at least twice by hirashin 

A fly like SM naruto slapped juubito down thanks to hirashin . Or did juubito have no knowledge there as well ?


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How were you a part of community without being a member?


 I wasn't apart of *this* community specifically, I meant the Naruto fanbase in general. I was on other sites before this one. 




> He is in my ignore list, and for a good reason too.


 "Nagato claimed Jiraiya would have defeated Pain with knowledge. Minato claimed he could not think of a greater shinobi than Jiraiya, Obito claimed Jiraiya was the shinobi that truly defeated him as a version that is considerably more powerful than any of his others, Naruto claimed he was a great shinobi, his nickname has "legendary" attached to it and was said by over a dozen characters in the manga.

This is hype from shinobi more powerful than Itachi, and better hype than you presented overall.

Moreover, you can't use character statements from the character themselves or heartbroken brothers with a hard on for them to dictate hype for the character.

So what you have is a hyperbole statement from BZ who has the worse statement credibility in the manga, and statements from MS Obito who is inferior to Minato, Naruto and Pain whom Jiraiya received great credible hype from." -DaVizWiz

Even without his post, this should be obvious to anyone who has read the Manga. In Part 1 Jiraiya is portrayed as Itachi's equal or superior, and in Part 2 he is portrayed as being capable of defeating Pain, someone who is objectively far above Itachi.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I wasn't apart of *this* community specifically, I meant the Naruto fanbase in general. I was on other sites before this one.
> 
> 
> "Nagato claimed Jiraiya would have defeated Pain with knowledge. Minato claimed he could not think of a greater shinobi than Jiraiya, Obito claimed Jiraiya was the shinobi that truly defeated him as a version that is considerably more powerful than any of his others, Naruto claimed he was a great shinobi, his nickname has "legendary" attached to it and was said by over a dozen characters in the manga.
> ...




Naruto, Minato and Pain have a hard on for Jiraiya because they're all his pupil. All of which have surpassed him by leaps and bounds. Obito's statement has absolutely nothing to do with strength either, so it's completely irrelevant.

Additionally, how can you claim that BZ's statement wasn't credible when he's the only shinobi who has witnessed the most battles, lived through the longest, and knew about god tiers before we even did? He's arguably the most credible character when it comes to battle experience and knowledge (outside of plot related stuff).


The most obvious and logical hype and feats we could compare them with is Orochimaru admitting inferiority and defeated multiple times by Itachi, and that same Orochimaru viewed Jiraiya as inferior than himself and even outplayed Jiraiya during their encounters.



Icegaze said:


> Says the guy who started the insults
> 
> 
> Even if we are to assume masked man is a retcon juubito most certainly knew about hirashin
> ...




Hirashin only succeeded because there were tags already on him, and Tobirama had to sacrifice his life to even tag it. 

Try a living Minato or Tobirama trying to place tags on Juubito and we'll find out EXACTLY how useful Hirashin is....


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Naruto, Minato and Pain have a hard on for Jiraiya because they're all his pupil. All of which have surpassed him by leaps and bounds. Obito's statement has absolutely nothing to do with strength either, so it's completely irrelevant.


 That doesn't denounce his respectfully earned hype for his capabilities. Implying that it's irrelevant because they are his pupils is dishonest. 



> *Additionally, how can you claim that BZ's statement wasn't credible when he's the only shinobi who has witnessed the most battles, lived through the longest, and knew about god tiers before we even did? He's arguably the most credible character when it comes to battle experience and knowledge (outside of plot related stuff).*


 When will you understand that none of that nonsense was even thought of during the time when Zetsu made that statement, and even then he didn't know what a Susanoo was. How many times do I have to say this?




> The most obvious and logical hype and feats we could compare them with is Orochimaru admitting inferiority and defeated multiple times by Itachi, and that same Orochimaru viewed Jiraiya as inferior than himself and even outplayed Jiraiya during their encounters.


 That has absolutely nothing to do with Jiraiya being portrayed as superior to Itachi. Stop trying to use some false roundabout logic to make Itachi superior to Jiraiya, it's not going to work. Jiraiya has earned more and greater hype than Itachi, it's really that simple.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 14, 2016)

Itachi: people have been denying his *actual *limits since he pretty much said that Sasuke with the MS could beat him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Naruto, Minato and Pain have a hard on for Jiraiya because they're all his pupil. All of which have surpassed him by leaps and bounds. Obito's statement has absolutely nothing to do with strength either, so it's completely irrelevant.
> 
> Additionally, how can you claim that BZ's statement wasn't credible when he's the only shinobi who has witnessed the most battles, lived through the longest, and knew about god tiers before we even did? He's arguably the most credible character when it comes to battle experience and knowledge (outside of plot related stuff).
> 
> ...



Oh I know that never said or implied they succeeded otherwise fact is the succeeded on a god tier 

Now as for how to mark a target it depends in battle but any cqc exchange could result in that 

Touching a clone means he can link the original chakra and make that original to any mark of his choosing so while he can't hirashin to Itachi for example by marking Itachi clone 
He has however linked his chakra to Itachi by touching the clone which means he can wrap Itachi to any mark of his choosing . One must understand the perks of being instantly moved away from a position to run into an attack 

Otherwise coming close to his clone etc 

In the same way Itachi fans can claim genjutsu success rate has been high so it's likely to succeed in battle 

Hirashin success rate has been very high as well , so the likeliness of a mark being close or getting marked is very high 

That's all am getting at 

Aided by the fact that the Jutsu is spammable , trial and error really 

Though even while failing spreading marks allows him to avoid the enemy 

Coordination or not being able to get out of 8th gai  way is impressive when one considers shot from that distance TSB could stop kamui wrap 

Hirashin is basically like obito version of kamui an annoying get away card that allows you to get behind the enemy quite easily


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## Sapherosth (Sep 14, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That doesn't denounce his respectfully earned hype for his capabilities. Implying that it's irrelevant because they are his pupils is dishonest.
> 
> When will you understand that none of that nonsense was even thought of during the time when Zetsu made that statement, and even then he didn't know what a Susanoo was. How many times do I have to say this?
> 
> ...



How does it not denounce his hype when his disciples are CLEARLY bias towards their masters? Especially when you try to denouce other character's hype.


Do you not understand story telling/writing?   If Kishi showed us that BZ knew about Susano, explained it in detail, we would all be asking the question about who the other Susano users are, which would immediately give away BZ's identity. It creates a  story.

It's literally like saying Obito is a retcon despite the fact that we know he wasn't. All because Obito has been using MS techs without activating MS all those times. If Kishi showed that Obito has MS with the same pattern as Kakashi's, we would immediately know who he was. Very simple logic to understand here.

Oh yes, Jiraiya was never portrayed as above Itachi. Stop fooling yourself. Jiraiya hasn't earned more, or greater hype at all. It's that simple. It's funny how you try to denounce Itachi's hype, yet try to grasp at straws for Jiraiya's hype despite it having obvious flaws in itself.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 14, 2016)

Define Itachi hype?


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi: people have been denying his *actual *limits since he pretty much said that Sasuke with the MS could beat him.


This is Gold !


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Part 2 > Part 1. Kishi probably didn't even know Kisame had those techniques.


You mean Jiraiya's sage mode ? yeah , he probably didn't think of that .
Jiraiya' feats , and hype in part 02 takes a dump on either Kisame or Itachi . AGAIN !


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> How does it not denounce his hype when his disciples are CLEARLY bias towards their masters? Especially when you try to denouce other character's hype.


 This is an excuse, his students have all seen and fought many splendid shinobi yet still acknowledge their master's prowess and skill. They are not biased fanboys like some of the people on this forum, you can't just entirely ignore a certain character's statement because "lol they bias".




> Do you not understand story telling/writing?   If Kishi showed us that BZ knew about Susano, explained it in detail, we would all be asking the question about who the other Susano users are, which would immediately give away BZ's identity. It creates a  story.


 Dude, if you seriously think Kishi had the whole Kaguya bs planned out since the beginning then I don't know what to tell you.



> It's literally like saying Obito is a retcon despite the fact that we know he wasn't. All because Obito has been using MS techs without activating MS all those times. If Kishi showed that Obito has MS with the same pattern as Kakashi's, we would immediately know who he was. Very simple logic to understand here.


 Except, Tobi was implied to be Obito for the longest of time. Black Zetsu being Kaguya's will, as well as Kaguya's existence, literally came completely out of nowhere at the end of the Manga. 



> Oh yes, Jiraiya was never portrayed as above Itachi. Stop fooling yourself. Jiraiya hasn't earned more, or greater hype at all. It's that simple. It's funny how you try to denounce Itachi's hype, yet try to grasp at straws for Jiraiya's hype despite it having obvious flaws in itself.


 Please elaborate on what hype Itachi has that puts him above Jiraiya, please tell me what hype that he has received puts him above the guy who was stated to able to beat Pain: someone who is leagues above Itachi.


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## Ashi (Sep 14, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi: people have been denying his *actual *limits since he pretty much said that Sasuke with the MS could beat him.



That's kind of where I put the two, and to me Sasuke edges out in versatility

but naw Itachi will somehow pull a strategy out of his anus, and body the opposition

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Dude, if you seriously think Kishi had the whole Kaguya bs planned out since the beginning then I don't know what to tell you



Do people actually think Kishi had Kaguya planned since the beginning?

The guy didn't even have the tailed beasts planned.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 14, 2016)

AngelTensa said:


> That's kind of where I put the two, and to me Sasuke edges out in versatility
> 
> but naw Itachi will somehow pull a strategy out of his anus, and body the opposition



Not sure about that, Itachi was pretty certain when he said the sole reason Sasuke wouldn't beat him was because the latter lacked the MS.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 14, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Not sure about that, Itachi was pretty certain when he said the sole reason Sasuke wouldn't beat him was because the latter lacked the MS.



If Itachi didn't have cancer and ninja aids, then maybe you'd have a point.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> If Itachi didn't have cancer and ninja aids, then maybe you'd have a point.



Let's not pretend the illness was more than it was.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 14, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Let's not pretend the illness was more than it was.



 It's not my fault that Kishimoto conveyed to us that "Itachi should've been much stronger" with his performances in the War Arc suggesting that he was.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It's not my fault that Kishimoto conveyed to us that "Itachi should've been much stronger" with his performances in the War Arc suggesting that he was.



It is your fault for misinterpreting that line: Itachi should have been stronger. He shouldn't be coughing after using Amaterasu, and dying while using Susanoo. In fact he should have used Susanoo more. Are you going to say there's more than just that?

His performances in the war arc showed us what I described, except he won't drop dead after using the MS 5 times due to having infinite chakra.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I wasn't apart of *this* community specifically, I meant the Naruto fanbase in general. I was on other sites before this one.



Thats irrelevant. I've been to few other sites and I was bedazzled by ignorance and stupidity.
You weren't a part of this community. You don't know anything that went around before you joined, so don't act like you do.



> "Nagato claimed Jiraiya would have defeated Pain with knowledge.


No he didn't. Thats fanmade horseshit based on a misconception.
Come at me.



> Minato claimed he could not think of a greater shinobi than Jiraiya,


Hashirama said Itachi is a greater shinobi than himself.
And that certainly wasn't a student/teacher circle Jerk between Minato and Jiraiya.



> Obito claimed Jiraiya was the shinobi that truly defeated him as a version that is considerably more powerful than any of his others,


And Vote 2 Sasuke said that Itachi was the true Hokage. Like, Itachi is the only character who got a hype just before the manga ended.


> Naruto claimed he was a great shinobi,


Read above.
Sasuke also said Itachi was perfect.



> his nickname has "legendary" attached to it and was said by over a dozen characters in the manga.


Meaningless. Orochimaru is also "legendary" and look what Itachi did to him.


> This is hype from shinobi more powerful than Itachi, and better hype than you presented overall.



They aren't even comparable. Jiraiya doesn't have any outstanding hype. He was mostly praised by his students and he was completely forgotten and became irrelevant after he died.

Hiruzen said Itachi has the wisdom of Hokage at 7 years old, the kind of wisdom Jiraiya had when he was 50.

Called "Truly invincible" by Zetsu who priorly witnessed Jiraiya gettin raped by Pain.

When Naruto got SM and was portrayed above Jiraiya, Sasuke was still being portrayed inferior to Itachi even after he got his MS. And MS Sasuke and SM Naruto were portrayed as equals. Naruto himself stated this.

Nagato, who treated Jiraiya like a bug, was portrayed as Itachi's peer
praised by Madara
praised by Madara
praised by Madara

Kirabi was shamelessly complimenting Itachi to his face after Itachi saved both his and Naruto's lives and gave them a lecture.

Itachi changed Naruto's misconceptions about life with one lecture and put him on the right track : praised by Madara
Something Jiraiya wasn't able to accomplish for years.

Lets not forget all the wank SM Kabuto gave Itachi.



> Moreover, you can't use character statements from the character themselves


When did Itachi hype himself ?



> or heartbroken brothers with a hard on for them to dictate hype for the character.


Oh ok, then lets discard everything Minato and Naruto said about Jiraiya too if thats the case 



> So what you have is a hyperbole statement from BZ who has the worse statement credibility in the manga, and statements from MS Obito who is inferior to Minato, Naruto and Pain whom Jiraiya received great credible hype from." -DaVizWiz


Hashirama shits on everyone Jiraiya recieved hype from.

In before "b-but Juubito"
VOTE 2 Sasuke >>>> Juubito.

Even if you discard BZ's retcon, he was still one of the most knowledgeable characters at that point, whose sole mission was to observe and record fights. So no, you can't pick and choose statements depending on whether you like them or not.



> Even without his post, this should be obvious to anyone who has read the Manga. In Part 1 Jiraiya is portrayed as Itachi's equal or superior,


Based on that retarded logic, Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama still.

Let me tell you this.
Gather all the hype Jiraiya recieved and multiply it by two. He'll still fall short of Itachi.
You may argue that Jiraiya wasn't in the manga as much as Itachi was, and you'd be right. But I guess thats the downside of being irrelevant.



> and in Part 2 he is portrayed as being capable of defeating Pain, someone who is objectively far above Itachi.


Itachi defeated Nagato, who is far above Pain.



Icegaze said:


> Says the guy who started the insults
> 
> 
> Even if we are to assume masked man is a retcon juubito most certainly knew about hirashin
> ...



Like I said, Juubito never cared. And he was trolled by SM Naruto when they were talking, by a mark Tobirama placed when he was in a mindless state, which Tobirama was only able to do so because he was an ET.
In before "mindless juubito knew about hiraishin"


We know for a fact that KCM Minato went up against Juubito and got his shit torn apart and he never fought Juubito head on after that.

You really need to let go my man. This is a lost cause.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 14, 2016)

So it is okay to say Itachi is invincible and is the greatest Edo Tensei that Kabuto had, regardless of context. Yet it is not okay to say Minato, Pain and post-Juubi Obito believe Jiraiya is insanely powerful because we should pay attention to context.

The irony is actually hilarious.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats irrelevant. I've been to few other sites and I was bedazzled by ignorance and stupidity.
> You weren't a part of this community. You don't know anything that went around before you joined, so don't act like you do.
> 
> 
> ...



But juubito wasn't mindless when naruto slammed his back with rasengan thanks to hirashin


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## Ashi (Sep 14, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So it is okay to say Itachi is invincible and is the greatest Edo Tensei that Kabuto had, regardless of context. Yet it is not okay to say Minato, Pain and post-Juubi Obito believe Jiraiya is insanely powerful because we should pay attention to context.
> 
> The irony is actually hilarious.




Context >>>>> Itachi dick


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> But juubito wasn't mindless when naruto slammed his back with rasengan thanks to hirashin



But he was mindless when ET Tobirama placed tags on him at the cost of getting his asshole ripped in half.


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But he was mindless when ET Tobirama placed tags on him at the cost of getting his asshole ripped in half.



But when he got his mind back
He obviously would have had knowledge of hirashin mark placed on him or are you saying he didn't know it was there

The first time rasengan hit him
Or when they hirashin swapped

Maybe he had 0 knowledge



Odd how his being mindless didn't help sasuke with his Amaterasu prevent getting blitz . 

Guess what Jutsu he needed to save him ? Start with H


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> But when he got his mind back
> He obviously would have had knowledge of hirashin mark placed on him or are you saying he didn't know it was there


Its hard to know if he became aware of it or not, but thats besides the point.

He was in a mindless state when Tobirama sacrified himself to place the tags on him, so he was no different than someone going up against Hiraishin with no knowledge.


> The first time rasengan hit him


That can't be attributed to the jutsu alone, a very unique set of circumstances got them to the point of hitting him.


> Or when they hirashin swapped


Same as above, they executed a 4 man move, still relying on that mark that was placed on him when he had no knowledge of the jutsu.



> Maybe he had 0 knowledge



In the mindless state yes, he had no knowledge.



> Odd how his being mindless didn't help sasuke with his Amaterasu prevent getting blitz .
> 
> Guess what Jutsu he needed to save him ? Start with H



I have no idea what you are referring to here.

But like I said, you should let go, I think this debate is over.
There are times when it is best you accept it and move on.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 14, 2016)

The Sannin, primarily Jiraiya, Itachi, and Hebi Sauce I guess. Hashirama and EMS Mads too. Been a while since I've seen any Kamui gg threads, so not sure if it counts.
Fair share of those tend to be every bit as underrated as they're overrated though.


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its hard to know if he became aware of it or not, but thats besides the point.
> 
> He was in a mindless state when Tobirama sacrified himself to place the tags on him, so he was no different than someone going up against Hiraishin with no knowledge.
> 
> ...




When EMS sasuke needed minato to save him from mindless juubito grip

Do you need scans or did the scan hurt you so much you deleted it from your mind ?

praised by Madara

praised by Madara

Odd how his being mindless still alllowed him to react and attack his enemies accordingly though . Not like he was getting pin balled

Naruto straight up hit juubito in a straight line straight fashion attack . There was no distraction there

Juubito knew he was marked looked at naruto and then got floored . The circumstances behind the mark aren't any different to every other Jutsu that failed while juubito was mindless .
Like I said he still knew to defend himself and there isn't any evidence loosing control whipped his memory , he remembered rin and himself when he was younger that doesn't imply lost memory there

Especially after tobirama returned TSB to him no way by then he didn't put 2 and 2 together


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> When EMS sasuke needed minato to save him from mindless juubito grip
> 
> Do you need scans or did the scan hurt you so much you deleted it from your mind ?



What does this have anything to do with what we are talking about ?



> Odd how his being mindless still alllowed him to react and attack his enemies accordingly though . Not like he was getting pin balled


Completely irrelevant.



> Naruto straight up hit juubito in a straight line straight fashion attack . There was no distraction there
> Juubito knew he was marked looked at naruto and then got floored . The circumstances behind the mark aren't any different to every other Jutsu that failed while juubito was mindless .
> Like I said he still knew to defend himself and there isn't any evidence loosing control whipped his memory , he remembered rin and himself when he was younger that doesn't imply lost memory there
> 
> Especially after tobirama returned TSB to him no way by then he didn't put 2 and 2 together



Look, I'll say this for the last time.

The whole debate was about whether Hiraishin would have the same effectiveness against certain opponents if they had knowledge on it.
You claimed that Juubito had knowledge of Hiraishin.
I proved that he didn't. Not until the point where he got marked anyways. Which is the sole reason why Tobirama was able to pull off every move he pulled on him. Do you think everything would be the same if they didn't get a free tag on him right at the start ?

I think it is you who should put 2 and 2 together.
This debate is over my man. You have to learn when to give up.


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What does this have anything to do with what we are talking about ?
> 
> 
> Completely irrelevant.
> ...



Concession accepted 

It's ok . You couldn't possibly prove obito had no knowledge when going Jin doesn't wipe your memory


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

If Itachi is hyped to be invincible , Jiraiya is hyped to be able to defeat _theee_ Invincible (Pain and Itachi , both were called Invincible)

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 14, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> And I wouldn't accuse Kakashi of being the most over-rated either, for that same reason.
> 
> I think you're incorrect about the second point. They're all still about equal, power-wise. Orochimaru with ET is the only one who is considerably stronger.


SM Jiraiya has more fire-power and potent ninjutsu/genjutsu than Tsunade can ever dream of. There's a huge gap in terms of power between Tsunade and SM Jiraiya, Base Jiraiya still retains an advantage over her but it's not as big. If we replaced Tsunade with Jiraiya, he would have won against Madara.



UchihaX28 said:


> I'm referring to the fact that Kishimoto went out his way to establish that Tsunade also had a hidden technique would suggest that he viewed them as equals. You could argue that their specialties weren't equal, but I highly doubt it. There's nothing suggesting that his view of the Sannin changed and Tsunade's special technique is considered to be just as amazing as Sage Mode and the White Snake Power.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> ...


Yeah ugh no, Orochimaru w/ET ≫≫≫≫ SM Jiraiya ≫≫≫≫≫ Byakugou Tsunade

Once you factor in their hax'd jutsu, Orochimaru with ET will always be stronger than all versions of SM Jiraiya who will always be better offensively against any version of Byakugou Tsunade.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 14, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah ugh no, Orochimaru w/ET ≫≫≫≫ SM Jiraiya ≫≫≫≫≫ Byakugou Tsunade
> 
> Once you factor in their hax'd jutsu, Orochimaru with ET will always be stronger than all versions of SM Jiraiya who will always be better offensively against any version of Byakugou Tsunade.



 I guess we agree to disagree. It seems as if a lot of what I stated was ignored due to your reluctance and disbelief in acknowledging Tsunade's capabilities.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I guess we agree to disagree. It seems as if a lot of what I stated was ignored due to your reluctance and disbelief in acknowledging Tsunade's capabilities.


I feel like in match ups, Jiraiya and Orochimaru will always be better since they have actual offense but if it's a war going on, then I'd pick Tsunade. I'm not saying she cannot win fights, she can against some people but she's not the generic offense-oriented shinobi. Physically, she might be the strongest, but when you can make a solid argument for each of the other Gokage likely beating her in a 1 vs. 1, it doesn't look good for her.


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