# Sun Wukong (Chinese Mythology) VS. Son Goku (Dragon Ball)



## Tonathan100 (Sep 12, 2016)

Location: Earth (Dragon Ball)
Distance: 1 kilometer
Knowledge: 0%
Restrictions: None


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## Hardboned (Sep 12, 2016)

I'm not a Sun expert but I thought Wukong was capable of fighting off some universal being or some shit

Don't quote me on that though

Don't know his speed either


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## BreakFlame (Sep 12, 2016)

Well, I'm fairly sure Wukong can hold his own against even SSJB.

If anything, I'd be more worried about if Goku can actually kill him. I mean, Wukong wiped his own name from the book of death (suck it Ryuuk) so he can't actually die.

And I think he beat up a bunch of constellations. Somehow.


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## Tonathan100 (Sep 12, 2016)

I find Sun Wukong beating Son Goku highly unlikely, due to this.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 12, 2016)

Tonathan100 said:


> I find Sun Wukong beating Son Goku highly unlikely, due to this.


>Beerus and Champa at full strength together
>scaling to Goku


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## Claudio Swiss (Sep 12, 2016)

How fast is wukong anyway?


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## shade0180 (Sep 12, 2016)

Claudio Swiss said:


> How fast is wukong anyway?



fast enough to go to the end of the universe in one jump.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## SF latif (Sep 12, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> fast enough to go to the end of the universe in one jump.


how long does it take him


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## Hardboned (Sep 12, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> fast enough to go to the end of the universe in one jump.


Well fuck

Is the timeframe long? Because that shit sounds like way above DBS in speed

Reactions: Agree 1


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## shade0180 (Sep 12, 2016)

going to say it isn't long, there's no definite time frame I recall though.

 at most it's probably a few minutes.


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## Gordo solos (Sep 12, 2016)

Hardboned said:


> Well fuck
> 
> *Is the timeframe long*? Because that shit sounds like way above DBS in speed


No one knows how long it took


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## Gordo solos (Sep 12, 2016)

Or at least something definitive


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## SF latif (Sep 13, 2016)

well, even if we assume timeframe of 30m it would still be above DBS speed
but really. it depends on the context. you could get better timeframe based on the context


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## shade0180 (Sep 13, 2016)

The context is basically

wukong has gone to the end of the universe to prove to buddha that he can escape buddha's palm

Buddha rofl at him and encompass the whole universe on his palm.

then Wukong returned boasting about what he did, and buddha showed wukong that the best wukong could do is put a graffiti on his finger.

 basically that's how it is.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 2 | Disagree 1


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## BreakFlame (Sep 13, 2016)

Wasn't that the world? Most interpretations I saw just have him going half way around the planet per summersault.


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## shade0180 (Sep 13, 2016)

the original has him crossing stars and nebula including a constellation or a formation of stars.

Unless you think those 3 are inside the world I have no clue how you interpret it.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## BreakFlame (Sep 13, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> the original has him crossing stars and nebula including a constellation or a formation of stars.
> 
> Unless you think those 3 are inside the world I have no clue how you interpret it.



Huh.


Fucking half assed translations.


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## Toaa (Sep 13, 2016)

I should really read it


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## Gordo solos (Sep 13, 2016)

The fastest speed feat (apparently counts as speed) in DBS is Whis flying past 3 universes and back in a couple of hours


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## shade0180 (Sep 13, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> 3 universes



Universes or galaxies?


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## Gordo solos (Sep 13, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Universes or galaxies?


Universes. He flew from Universe 7 to 10, stayed for a while to check out Zamasu with Goku and Beerus, then flew back to their universe

I'm not sure how traveling to other universes counts as speed, but GM calced it to be high trillions of times FTL (seems more like a low end, but eh)


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## SSBMonado (Sep 13, 2016)

At this point, there's no reason why SSB Goku shouldn't be universe level. We was close to it in the BoG arc and now he's gotten several times stronger already.
The bigger problem here isn't DC and dura, though, but the fact that Sun Wukong is immortal. So even if they are matched in stats, Goku will eventually run out of juice and lose


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## Roman (Sep 13, 2016)

If Sun was able to travel to the end of the universe in minutes, it beats This traveling to universe 10. I'm putting my money on the monkey king.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

Goku slaughterstomps, Wukong is over rated by people who haven't read JtW, Wukong is at best a mountain buster.



Roman said:


> If Sun was able to travel to the end of the universe in minutes, it beats This traveling to universe 10. I'm putting my money on the monkey king.



Universe in old Chinese mythology was smaller than our Solar System.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 3


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## shade0180 (Sep 13, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Universe in old Chinese mythology was smaller than our Solar System.



 No it isn't.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Sep 13, 2016)

Do we count Buddha Sun Wukong? Cause if so, he absolutely demolishes Goku and the DB Verse.
Buddhas in Tao Myth are one with the entirety of reality, as demonstrated when the entire universe was within the hand of Gautama Buddha. They are also implied to be above the Jade Emperor.

Base Wukong is Galaxy level+ due to easily lifting the Milky Way (Heavenly River). Chinese Cosmology believed the universe to be infinite, and their astronomy was advanced enough that by the time Journey to the West was written, they were aware of the galaxy's size more or less. His speed far outclasses anything in Dragon Ball Super, but unless he has some hax I am not aware of, he loses.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## shade0180 (Sep 13, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> but unless he has some hax I am not aware of, he loses.



Wukong has a lot of ability.

 72 transformation, he can also summon local deities, clones, etc.


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> No it isn't.


I wanted to say Galaxy not Solar System my bad.

I remember that some historians found a research book from 1757 which is at least a century after JtW novel and that research book only had about 3000 known stars, our Galaxy has over 100 billion stars.

16th century Chinese authors had no idea how big the Universe actually is, even we don't know how big the entire Universe actually is.

Best DC Wukong showed in the Novel was busting a mountain to escape his prison on Page 207 in the Novel.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## shade0180 (Sep 13, 2016)

people believed the universe is infinite, we had countless mention of this in Mythology. they believe the stars are countless too, almost every mythology point out to this, they have countable number of view-able stars which they named that's most likely what you are pointing out.

the real difference from their time and ours is we currently have a definite number for the size of the universe and existing stars and galaxy. which Ironically from another point of view it would look like our universe is smaller then theirs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> historian/physicist's believed the universe is infinite, we had countless mention of this in Mythology. they believe the stars are countless almost every mythology point out to this too, they have countable number of view-able stars which they named that's most likely what you are pointing out.
> 
> the real difference from their time and ours is we currently have a definite number for the universe and existing stars and galaxy. which Ironically from another point of view it would look like our universe is smaller then theirs.



There is no sentence in the Novel that states the Universe was infinite, so we have to go by what the Author knew which was jack and shit.

Even Marvel and DC have finite universes.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Do we count Buddha Sun Wukong? Cause if so, he absolutely demolishes Goku and the DB Verse.
> Buddhas in Tao Myth are one with the entirety of reality, as demonstrated when the entire universe was within the hand of Gautama Buddha. They are also implied to be above the Jade Emperor.
> 
> Base Wukong is Galaxy level+ due to easily lifting the Milky Way (Heavenly River). Chinese Cosmology believed the universe to be infinite, and their astronomy was advanced enough that by the time Journey to the West was written, they were aware of the galaxy's size more or less. His speed far outclasses anything in Dragon Ball Super, but unless he has some hax I am not aware of, he loses.



*Base Wukong couldn't even lift 3 mountains without being crushed unless those mountains were heavier than the Milky Way.*

"The monster broke into a cold sweat all over when he saw that Monkey could carry mountains. Then he pulled himself together recited another spell, and brought Mount Tai down from the sky on Monkey's head. By now the Great Sage was so weak with exhaustion that this mountain landing on his head pinned him down: his three corpse−spirits exploded, and blood spurted from his seven orifices."

"He can't move an inch," the other replied. "He's crushed under three mountains I dropped on him. It was only when I'd done that to him I collected the Tang Priest, Friar Sand, the horse and the baggage and brought them all here."

"As he lay crushed under the three mountains the Great Sage thought in his distress of the holy priest Sanzang"

The Milky Way feat is nothing more than an outlier because the author had no idea how big is our Galaxy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Sep 13, 2016)

Certain Mythologies like Greco-Roman and Norse do indeed have tiny universes, but Chinese Myth is not one of them. Their cosmology very clearly believed the universe to be infinite.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Certain Mythologies like Greco-Roman and Norse do indeed have tiny universes, but Chinese Myth is not one of them. Their cosmology very clearly believed the universe to be infinite.



Show me a sentence in Journey to the West where it states that their Universe is infinite. Wukong was clearly nothing more than a mountain buster who got crushed by 3 mountains.

You are being very optimistic thinking that a 16th century author knows anything about astronomy.

Wukong consistently almost died to non-planetary demons and mostly fought featless Gods.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Sep 13, 2016)

How about it when Sun Wukong defeated 28 Constellations at the same time? Or when he was a threat to the Jade Emperor?

Wukong has far more showings about him being above Mountain level than not.


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## shade0180 (Sep 13, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Base Wukong couldn't even lift 3 mountains without being crushed unless those mountains were heavier than the Milky Way.



 those 3 mountain was buddha's hand transformed into mountain it was literally stated in the novel.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> those 3 mountain was buddha's hand transformed into mountain it was literally stated in the novel.



I didn't see that being mentioned, can I see a quote? It was a demon raining mountains on Wukong when Wukong was carrying him.


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> How about it when Sun Wukong defeated 28 Constellations at the same time? Or when he was a threat to the Jade Emperor?
> 
> Wukong has far more showings about him being above Mountain level than not.



All the 100,000 heavenly warriors were nigh-featless.

Right now it feels like I am the only one who is proving his claims with quotes from the Novel.

While Dragon King stated that the Staff holds Milky Way in place it doesn't make sense because just after that Wukong states that the staff only weighs little over 6 tons.

"I hurried out into the light of day to look at it, and I saw that there was an inscription on it that read 'AS−YOU−WILL GOLD−BANDED CUDGEL: WEIGHT 13,500 POUNDS'. Stand aside, and I'll make it change again."


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## Toaa (Sep 13, 2016)

I think there are a lot of misconceptions for wukong at best he is universal and thats with buddhahood nor was he ftl before the somersault is yes only 108000000 li or sth.i will however read it when i have time to make sure.

That info comes from someone who i once spoke with.

I dint know how pangu compares with eos wukong.


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## Roman (Sep 13, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Goku slaughterstomps, Wukong is over rated by people who haven't read JtW, Wukong is at best a mountain buster.



Having read JtW, I can confirm that you're wrong.



TobiSan said:


> Universe in old Chinese mythology was smaller than our Solar System.





shade0180 said:


> No it isn't.



And to add to what shade already pointed out, multiple times in JtW itself was it mentioned that the universe is infinite.

And iirc, didn't Sun effectively break out of a prison of universal proportions in the book?


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

Roman said:


> Having read JtW, I can confirm that you're wrong.



I have the Novel with me right now, I don't remember anywhere it stating that the Universe is infinite, can you confirm it with a quote from the Novel?

I already put a quote where he couldn't even carry 3 mountains.

Only description of the Universe I remember is "Although the universe is vast"

The entire Universe in JtW is pretty much just Earth and Heaven.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 13, 2016)

Who cares what the Author thought?
Author is dead in the OBD for a reason.
Unless he specifically states otherwise, Universe is assumed to be same as our own.

Arguing based off of "what the author thought" is considered bad form here for a reason, mostly because it involves a lot of baseless unconfirmable conjecture. and because authors are bad at physics.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Toaa (Sep 13, 2016)

In xianxia the universe is also stated to be inifnite its just a way of speech.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Who cares what the Author thought?
> Author is dead in the OBD for a reason.
> Unless he specifically states otherwise, Universe is assumed to be same as our own.
> 
> Arguing based off of "what the author thought" is considered bad form here for a reason, mostly because it involves a lot of baseless unconfirmable conjecture. and because authors are bad at physics.



The universe is as big as the author at the time thought it was, which can't be confirmed, it's still not infinite because it was mentioned that it's possible to stand on the both ends of the Universe in the Novel.

Like I said before the Universe is basically Heavenly Realm and Earth(with hell in the core). When the Author explains how the Universe was created he basically just talks about how Heaven and Earth were created.

*I don't know why people want Wukong to be some kinda hardass Universe buster when he is less than planetary.*


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## Roman (Sep 13, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> which can't be confirmed



So why are you still arguing like it's confirmed?


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## Tonathan100 (Sep 13, 2016)

Roman said:


> So why are you still arguing like it's confirmed?


Because TobiSan is a hypocritical downplayer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

Roman said:


> So why are you still arguing like it's confirmed?



I am arguing that it isn't infinite, which can be confirmed because it's confirmed in the Novel.
You stated that the Novel states it being infinite Multiple times, I have yet to seen proof.

"But, alas, there is a great gap between the worlds of darkness and of light, and we are unable to meet each other as we are each at different ends of the universe" *Page 151.*



Tonathan100 said:


> Because TobiSan is a hypocritical downplayer.


If stating facts is downplaying then yes I am a hypocritical downplayer. Next time read the Novel if you want to make a Wukong thread.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Roman (Sep 13, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> I am arguing that it isn't infinite, which can be confirmed because it's confirmed in the Novel.



But you straight up said it's not......ugh, whatever man

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

Roman said:


> But you straight up said it's not......ugh, whatever man


Are you mentally handicapped or is this a hidden camera show and I am getting trolled?
I stated that it can't be confirmed how big the Universe actually is not if it's infinite or not.

Also have you actually read the Novel or just made up a lie? Because I have been looking and there is absolutely no mentions of the Universe being infinite like you claimed there is.


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## Toaa (Sep 13, 2016)

In ch 2 sun wukong learned how to jump sixty thousand miles in a single somersault

Reactions: Like 1


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Sep 13, 2016)

Tonathan100 said:


> Because TobiSan is a hypocritical downplayer.


 

And with that I'm out

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## TobiSan (Sep 13, 2016)

yujiro said:


> In ch 2 sun wukong learned how to jump sixty thousand miles in a single somersault



Jumping onto a flying cloud doesn't really help in a fight.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Solrac (Sep 13, 2016)

>Enters thread
>Sees TobiSan
>Sun Wu Kong downplay


Good to see TobiSan being the terrible little bugger he is as usual. Why am I not surprised, ladies and gentlemen?



TobiSan said:


> The universe is as big as the author at the time thought it was, which can't be confirmed, it's still not infinite because it was mentioned that it's possible to stand on the both ends of the Universe in the Novel
> 
> Like I said before the Universe is basically Heavenly Realm and Earth(with hell in the core). When the Author explains how the Universe was created he basically just talks about how Heaven and Earth were created.



TobiSan, please do me and others here a favor and just STFU. It is clear that you do not know what you're spewing about and your statements are an absolute indicator that you don't know jack shit about Chinese myths or culture at all.

Journey to the West was written in the 16th century and by that time, I'm pretty sure the Chinese would have a goddamned clue about the vastness of creation and how many of their ideas of cosmology would translate to an infinite universe (and even beyond). And for your information, the myths/stories incorporate the traditions and cosmologies of Confucianism, Daoism (dao de ching states infinite worlds twice and ), and Buddhism (more multiversal shenanigans) all into one. And if you had actually performed any cursory research on your history, the Chinese already had ideas of at least an infinite universe dating way back before JtW was even written.

Hey...


*



			I don't know why people want Wukong to be some kinda hardass Universe buster when he is less than planetary.
		
Click to expand...

*
I don't know why people like you are spastic idiots who continue to refuse to listen to what others tell you and just downplay any argument he doesn't like.

The fact that you even lowball Sun Wu Kong to below planetary is just the most extraordinary thing i've ever witnessed from the likes of you and thus I have no longer any semblance of a reason to believe that you have the slightest credibility in anything at all. 

Cut the fucking nonsense of yours out and just get some common sense to re-read all the dogshit you've been posting in this thread and then while at it, please go take a nice long look at yourself at the mirror in a bathroom and think to yourself about why you even post in this threads at all.

I mean just STAHP. Really, just STAHP. You're just embarrassing yourself in front of others. The fact that even Tonathan of all people here calls you out for "blatant dishonesty" just really says everything wrong about you.

Okay I'm out.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3


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## Gordo solos (Sep 13, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Do we count Buddha Sun Wukong? Cause if so, he absolutely demolishes Goku and the DB Verse.
> Buddhas in Tao Myth are one with the entirety of reality, *as demonstrated when the entire universe* was within the hand of Gautama Buddha. They are also implied to be above the Jade Emperor.
> 
> Base Wukong is Galaxy level+ due to easily lifting the Milky Way (Heavenly River). Chinese Cosmology believed the universe to be infinite, and their astronomy was advanced enough that by the time Journey to the West was written, they were aware of the galaxy's size more or less. His speed far outclasses anything in Dragon Ball Super, but unless he has some hax I am not aware of, he loses.


This doesn't sound more impressive than Zeno tbh 

I don't see how it's above DB verse

As for the actual fight tho, pretty sure Wukong has hax


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## AgentAAA (Sep 13, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> The universe is as big as the author at the time thought it was, which can't be confirmed



No.
For the same reason we've never treated it as such for any fiction, mythological or otherwise, We assume real-life cosmology unless proven otherwise.
Hence why piccolo's a moon-buster, planet-busting claims on earthlike planers don't automatically require planet-scaling, and so on and so forth. 
Author intent means shit, unless it's shown in the work.


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## Toaa (Sep 14, 2016)

From what i gathered he jumped the 60 thousand miles and he uses the cloud as a means of transportation.its a spell he can do.sorry i found that he really travels via the clouds.

Also the staff of his was said to fasten the milky way.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Sep 14, 2016)

@

In terms of regular AP Buddhas would likely be beneath Zeno, but they would win due to the wide amount of Hax they hold. Dragon Ball is a powerful verse, yes, but people there have barely any powers beyond regular punching and energy blasts.


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## Toaa (Sep 14, 2016)

Yeah just wukong has transformation spells summons invisibility regeneration immortality and buddha can also attack the soul bqnish you to diffrent universes send yoj to reincarnation seal you


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## TobiSan (Sep 14, 2016)

yujiro said:


> From what i gathered he jumped the 60 thousand miles and he uses the cloud as a means of transportation.its a spell he can do.sorry i found that he really travels via the clouds.
> 
> Also the staff of his was said to fasten the milky way.



Dragon King stated that the staff held Milky Way before Wukong took it, but that makes no sense because right after Wukong takes it he states that the Staff weighs a little over 6 tons which was written on the Staff. There are a lot of space stuff that makes no sense in JtW because the Author had no idea how big the Milky Way is, it's written by a 16th century Chinese writer. That is why when he described the creation of the Universe he only described the creation of Heaven and Earth(hell is in Earth), that is the entire Universe in the novel.

@Jakes are you mad because I am the only person in this thread who brings proof from the Novels. I have given out quotes and page numbers. Everyone else makes up stuff with no sources when I ask them.
If you want to keep raging on how I downplay Wukong then read the fucking Novel and give me proof of me downplaying him or just keep raging with 0 knowledge on the Novel, don't have time for morons.

I don't care when people who haven't read the Novel call me on dishonesty, it's hypocritical if anything.

@AgentAAA Author's intent means a lot and it's implied a lot in the Novel that the Universe is small, it's even confirmed that it's not infinite. Now unless you have proof of quotes with page numbers, stop responding to me.

*TL;DR - People who haven't read the Novel rage that I am being dishonest when I put out page numbers where I get my information.*
amazon.com/Journey-Chinese-Classics-Classic-Volumes/dp/7119016636

This is worse than arguing with firm Religious folk.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Deer Lord (Sep 14, 2016)

TobiSan has a point, he's the only one so far to bring in quotes
If people feel he's being dishonest and misinterpreting stuff then back up your claims

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Toaa (Sep 14, 2016)

Hey im reading it.though yeah all take their info from outside source.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 14, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> @AgentAAA Author's intent means a lot


No. 
OBD treats Author as dead. Which basically means Author's intent has no use in debates here whatsoever.
Even WoG is ignored at times even if it's clear if it contradicts source material.
general guess at intent means a lot less since the only thing we can derive that from without WoG is... Reading the work.
More importantly, we don't really expect the author to have a firm grasp of physics or how things work when it comes to smaller things, either.
Hence why we don't question if the author's mountains are "made of the same material as real mountains", if Mount Fuji's changing size between canons unless specifically stated, etc.

And why we have a lot of ridiculously powerful mythologies other than this one despite them not having the best understanding of cosmology.




> and it's implied a lot in the Novel that the Universe is small, it's even confirmed that it's not infinite.


If you want to make this argument go with that then.
Unless you have specific quotes of what the author said regarding size (and we throw those out too if they don't mesh with the source material, see Tori  saying Cell's Kamehameha is probably a SS buster) arguing off of what the author knew means nothing. they don't matter in the OBD.
Ignoring this, even if Author wasn't dead?
you have conjecture on what he thinks unless you're going off of direct quotes.
Without base or real proof.

If you want to argue the universe isn't infinite and do it with page quotes, sure, I support that strongly.
If you want to argue based off of what you think that guy you don't know probably thought at the time and who we'd ignore regardless? Not going to go anywhere.


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## DoomBringer (Sep 14, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> This doesn't sound more impressive than Zeno tbh
> 
> I don't see how it's above DB verse
> 
> As for the actual fight tho, pretty sure Wukong has hax



There are other parts of the body than just the hand.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 14, 2016)

Umm, I recall from Greek myth debates (and mythology debates in general) we had here that determining just how big the author finds "the world" to be was an issue.

Hell, some people don't automatically assume standard universe size for mainstream fictions either (ehm four galaxies DB ehm)
it's one of these arguments that tends to fall under personal bias more often than not


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 14, 2016)

well we assume Earth, the solar system and the milky way in most fiction have the same sizes as ours unless otherwise shown.  The 4 galaxy thing was just people misinterpreting the daizenshu.


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## SF latif (Sep 14, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> @
> 
> In terms of regular AP Buddhas would likely be beneath Zeno, but they would win due to the wide amount of Hax they hold. Dragon Ball is a powerful verse, yes, but people there have barely any powers beyond regular punching and energy blasts.


false: hit has time-stop hax, beerus has energy nullyfication hax, whis can bfr people to diffrent dimensions, babidi can mind fuck people, ginyu can body change etc etc

Dragonball has some hax other than just energy blasts


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2016)

I don't know Sun Wukong so idk who wins but can we stop using arguments from 2012 like "anything hax beats DBZ"?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Sep 14, 2016)

Why stop using what's legitimately true?

DBZ's hax is kind of ass tier except for Beerus' Energy bullshit

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Claudio Swiss (Sep 14, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> I don't know Sun Wukong so idk who wins but can we stop using arguments from 2012 like "anything hax beats DBZ"?


Well it's true anybody in there tier or above have hax that they have no answer for.


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## Gordo solos (Sep 14, 2016)

DB barely focuses on hax


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## TobiSan (Sep 14, 2016)

Dragonball doesn't need hax when any character worth a while can knock Wukong right out.

Though Dragonball does lack hax compared to other fictions like Marvel, DC or like Naruto.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gordo solos (Sep 14, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Dragonball doesn't need hax when any character worth a while can knock Wukong right out.
> 
> Though Dragonball does lack hax compared to other fictions like Marvel, DC or like *Naruto*.

Reactions: Like 2


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## SSBMonado (Sep 14, 2016)

Inb4 EoS Sasuke vs DBS Vegeta threads


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## Gordo solos (Sep 14, 2016)

Nardo is garbage tier compared to DB (hax included)...


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## Tonathan100 (Sep 14, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Dragonball doesn't need hax when any character worth a while can knock Wukong right out.
> 
> Though Dragonball does lack hax compared to other fictions like Marvel, DC or like *Naruto*.


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## SF latif (Sep 14, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> like Naruto.


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## hammer (Sep 14, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Goku slaughterstomps, Wukong is over rated by people who haven't read JtW, Wukong is at best a mountain buster.
> 
> 
> 
> Universe in old Chinese mythology was smaller than our Solar System.


>makes the jade emperor shit his pants

>only mountain level


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## AgentAAA (Sep 15, 2016)

Deer Lord said:


> Umm, I recall from Greek myth debates (and mythology debates in general) we had here that determining just how big the author finds "the world" to be was an issue.


I recall that being debated. If I recall correctly, we went with what we normally do, which falls under this umbrella as well. that is:


> Hell, some people don't automatically assume standard universe size for mainstream fictions either (ehm four galaxies DB ehm)
> it's one of these arguments that tends to fall under personal bias more often than not


It depends entirely on if there's established cosmology in the series.
The four Galaxies thing, even though ultimately a pretty invalid debate, was not based on author statements or intent whatsoever. it's from secondary sources (With some very, very indirect context given by the primary canon due to "north kai, south kai, etc. being things").
That was an argument given traction through data-book, and stopped having any bases once primary canon contradicted it, flimsy as it's original leg was.

Abnormal cosmology does exist - Diskworld is a prime example. However, if it's not specifically stated to be abnormal in the context of the story, we go by current standard understanding. Just like we do with everything else.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 15, 2016)

The problem is that most mythological cosmologies are vastly different to our own, the understanding of what a star is, how large it is, where they come from, how they work, how many there are, etc. It's not so much about authors intent as it is about establishing that by definition quite a few (but I guess not all) cosmologies from the olden days have pretty big problems and so can't be automatically assumed as universe sized.


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## Toaa (Sep 15, 2016)

Also wukong was having difficulty fighting  nezha the son of the heavenly king and erlang shen.

As for the jade emperor he wasnt that much of a warrior as much of a ruled


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## MatthewSchroeder (Sep 15, 2016)

I once found this respect thread for the Jade Emperor which I think is pretty reasonable. The problem is that very little is lines from actual myth texts, but rather from encyclopedias end the like.

If this is to be believed (I am skeptical), he's Omnipresent, Omniscient, created the Milky Way with a handwave and defeated a demon who stomped the entire army of heaven.

I do know that he is the assistant and eventual successor of the Jade Pure One, who is one of the supreme deities who created the universe, and who are likely the only beings above the Buddhas.


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## TobiSan (Sep 16, 2016)

hammer said:


> >makes the jade emperor shit his pants
> 
> >only mountain level



> Wukong is a Galaxy buster


> Gets crushed by 3 mountains
> Almost gets killed by less than planetary demons multiple times
> Almost burns to death

> Haven't read the Novel
> Tries to argue about the Novel.


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## hammer (Sep 16, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> > Wukong is a Galaxy buster
> 
> 
> > Gets crushed by 3 mountains
> ...



it's funny you say you read the novel and I haven't because of several reasons

those "mountains" are the part of the hand of god, those are not normal mountains

and he can't die, he ate the fruit a peach that gave him immortality, the fire was meant to turn him to into an elixir to extract the immortality, but he got an upgrade instead.


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## Roman (Sep 16, 2016)

yujiro said:


> Also wukong was having difficulty fighting nezha the son of the heavenly king and erlang shen.



Nezha was before he got an upgrade from when they tried turning him into an elixir. Also, Sun was beaten by Erlang because Erlang was assisted by his brothers. If not for that, Sun would've gotten away.


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## shade0180 (Sep 16, 2016)

Nezha is also that god that wears the universe as a ring.


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## Roman (Sep 16, 2016)

tl;dr Sun was easily universal before he even reached his peak.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hammer (Sep 16, 2016)

didn't sun become a budda at the end of journey to the west


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## Toaa (Sep 16, 2016)

Also when wukong reached the end of the universe he himself stated that he can jump 60 thousand miles and that it would bw easy for him to get out then after he jumps he says that he reached the end of the universe and found the collumns which support the universe.


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## hammer (Sep 16, 2016)

Roman said:


> Exactly.


I mean even before he ate the peach he was pretty high up in the list if I am not mistaken


yujiro said:


> Also when wukong reached the end of the universe he himself stated that he can jump 60 thousand miles and that it would bw easy for him to get out then after he jumps he says that he reached the end of the universe and found the collumns which support the universe.



if you ask tobi-san those collumms are just three average sized mountains


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## Roman (Sep 16, 2016)

hammer said:


> I mean even before he ate the peach he was pretty high up in the list if I am not mistaken



He was. And he was supposedly even higher when he became a Buddha. He wasn't a Buddha at the point you're referring to tho, albeit comparable in terms of power.


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## hammer (Sep 16, 2016)

Roman said:


> He was. And he was supposedly even higher when he became a Buddha. He wasn't a Buddha at the point you're referring to tho, albeit comparable in terms of power.



well yea, I know he became one at the end of the story,  and he should be comparable because the jade emperor created the universe and previous stories if I am not mistaken and he needed help to stop sun from fucking up heaven. And those mountains tobik eeps referring to is the finger of god, so not breaking out of that says little of his power


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## TobiSan (Sep 16, 2016)

hammer said:


> it's funny you say you read the novel and I haven't because of several reasons
> 
> those "mountains" are the part of the hand of god, those are not normal mountains
> 
> and he can't die, he ate the fruit a peach that gave him immortality, the fire was meant to turn him to into an elixir to extract the immortality, but he got an upgrade instead.



Give me a quote and page number where it states that those mountains were part of hand of god?

"Tell me, son," said Monkey, "what magic have you used to make yourself so heavy? You're crushing me. I don't mind the weight, but 'a badly−balanced carrying−pole is much harder to manage than a well−balanced one.'" "A mountain's not enough to crush him," thought the demon, and he recited another spell to bring Mount Emei hurtling down through the air on Monkey's head. Monkey turned aside again, so that the mountain landed on his right shoulder. Just watch him as, with the two mountains on his shoulders, he hurries like a shooting star after his master. The monster broke into a cold sweat all over when he saw that Monkey could carry mountains. Then he pulled himself together recited another spell, and brought Mount Tai down from the sky on Monkey's head. By now the Great Sage was so weak with exhaustion that this mountain landing on his head pinned him down: his three corpse−spirits exploded, and blood spurted from his seven orifices.

*Chapter 33 - Page 464*

I haven't seen a single shred of proof on this thread from people claiming he is Universal.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## SSBMonado (Sep 16, 2016)

yujiro said:


> Also when wukong reached the end of the universe he himself stated that he can jump 60 thousand miles and that it would bw easy for him to get out then after he jumps he says that he reached the end of the universe and found the collumns which support the universe.


Wait, so monkey could reach the end of the universe by jumping a mere 60 thousand miles?

And if the novel's universe is being supported by pillars, then isn't that a huge problem here? Journey's version of the universe doesn't follow the same rules as the real one, so wouldn't it be invalid to assume it has the same size?

inb4 disclaimer
I'm not saying Sun Wukong is mountain level or whatever. Just wondering about these details
/disclaimer


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## MatthewSchroeder (Sep 16, 2016)

Are we sure Nezha has the universe in his hand? From a quick search, he wears something called the Universe Ring (乾坤圈) , but I found no proof that it is the actual universe.


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## hammer (Sep 16, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Give me a quote and page number where it states that those mountains were part of hand of god?
> 
> "Tell me, son," said Monkey, "what magic have you used to make yourself so heavy? You're crushing me. I don't mind the weight, but 'a badly−balanced carrying−pole is much harder to manage than a well−balanced one.'" "A mountain's not enough to crush him," thought the demon, and he recited another spell to bring Mount Emei hurtling down through the air on Monkey's head. Monkey turned aside again, so that the mountain landed on his right shoulder. Just watch him as, with the two mountains on his shoulders, he hurries like a shooting star after his master. The monster broke into a cold sweat all over when he saw that Monkey could carry mountains. Then he pulled himself together recited another spell, and brought Mount Tai down from the sky on Monkey's head. By now the Great Sage was so weak with exhaustion that this mountain landing on his head pinned him down: his three corpse−spirits exploded, and blood spurted from his seven orifices.
> 
> ...







> The Jade Emperor and the authorities of Heaven appeal to the , who arrives from his temple in the West. The Buddha bets that Sun Wukong cannot escape from Buddha's palm. Sun Wukong smugly accepts the bet. He leaps and flies to the end of the world. Seeing nothing but five pillars, Wukong believes he has reached the ends of Heaven. To prove his trail, he marks the pillars with a phrase declaring himself the great sage equal to heaven (and in some versions, urinates on the pillar he signed on). He leaps back and lands in the Buddha's palm. He is surprised to find that the five "pillars" he found are in fact the fingers of the Buddha's hand. When Wukong tries to escape, the Buddha turns his hand into a mountain. Before Wukong can shrug it off, the Buddha seals him there using a paper talisman bearing the   in gold letters. Sun Wukong remains imprisoned for five centuries.



your problem is you are using an english translation when there are like what, five? and they say different things from each other.  try the chinese


also he was trapped by magic not the mountain


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## MatthewSchroeder (Sep 16, 2016)

Come in next where Tobi will downplay Saint Seiya because Athena was trapped in a vase.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Toph (Sep 16, 2016)

Sun Wukong, easily. He was basically Buddha-level at the end of Journey to the West, meaning he's omnipotent or close to it. Either way you look at it, Goku's fucked. Shit, the dude leaped across the universe in a single jump.

Other feats including if not limited:
>He can turn all his hairs into any material in the universe.
>Survived the hottest fire in the universe for 49 days.
>Beat the entire army of heaven.
>Is completely immortal. No matter what, you can't kill him.
>Defeated all the Gods, aside from Buddha (Buddha is omnipotent).
>Defeated the Jade Emperor (Who could rearrange the Milky Way).
>The Ruyi Jingu Bang (His version of Goku's Power Pole), a shape-shifting stave of metal which was reported to weigh more than 13,000 pounds.
>Can freeze people who aren't powerful.
>Teleportation (Sort of like Shunkan Ido).

There's many more after that, but that's just the gist of Wukong's capabilities.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Sep 16, 2016)

Was researching some on Nezha, and found some interesting things:




An excerpt from 

So 7 year old Nezha, before becoming a god, wielded a bow that only the Yellow Emperor was capable of bending? Mh...



"The Yellow Emperor has been referred to as Xuanyuan-shi (s 轩辕氏, t 軒轅氏, p Xuānyuán-shì, "Venerable of the Mysterious Origin" or "Venerable Mysterious Origin") and Youxiong-shi (c 有熊氏, p Yǒuxióng-shì, "Venerable who Possesses the Bear")."
(...)
"It is worth noting that Xuanyuan is also the name of the star Regulus (Alpha Leonis) in Chinese, the star being associated to Huangdi in traditional astronomy. He is also associated to the broader constellations Leo and Lynx, of which the latter is said to represent the body of the Yellow Dragon (黄龙 Huánglóng), Huangdi's animal form."
(...)
"In the late Warring States period, the Yellow Emperor was integrated into the cosmological scheme of the Five Phases, in which the colour yellow represents earth, the Yellow Dragon, and the center."
(...)
"Certain accounts interpret the Yellow Emperor of the Mysterious Origin (轩辕黄帝 Xuānyuán Huángdì) as the incarnation of the "Yellow God of the Northern Dipper" (黄神北斗 Huángshén Běidǒu), another name of the universal God, Shàngdì 上帝 or Tiāndì 天帝, thus making an ontological distinction between the two. The character 黄 huáng, for "yellow", also means, by homophony and shared etymology with 皇 huáng, "august", "creator" and "radiant", other attributes of the supreme God."
(...)
"As the Yellow Deity with Four Faces (黄帝四面 Huángdì Sìmiàn) he represents the centre of the universe and vision of the unity which controls the four directions."

If any of these are legit, then Nezha, even as a 7 Year old child, is ridiculously powerful, and Wukong defeated a far older and more powerful Nezha.


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## Worldbreaker (Sep 16, 2016)

I don't know why people keep saying DB is not haxx when they are just as haxx as the other verses


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## John Wayne (Sep 16, 2016)

Because DB's level of hax is not on the same level as most other series with Universe level beings.


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## Roman (Sep 16, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> I don't know why people keep saying DB is not haxx when they are just as haxx as the other verses



Dragonball has no mindfuck or soulfuck shenanigans. Time warping is limited to a handful of characters, the weakest of which isn't anything that can't be dealt with by counterhax and no canonical use of BFR. DB doesn't have a lot of hax and those characters who do have it use it only within a limited scope e.g. Whis only able to rewind time up to 3 minutes and is unable to use it for a long time afterwards, and Kaioshins' time rings can only go to the future and not the past.

Compared that with Megaman X for example:

- Effective time stop
- Black holes
- Intangibility
- Absolute Zero powers
- Regeneration (healing tanks)

Then you have characters like Valkorion and Nihilus in Star Wars who can mindfuck or drain the life out of planetary to galactic sized populations. You can tell that this goes beyond the simple beam spams DBZ characters are known for.


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## Worldbreaker (Sep 16, 2016)

Roman said:


> Dragonball has no mindfuck or soulfuck shenanigans. Time warping is limited to a handful of characters, the weakest of which isn't anything that can't be dealt with by counterhax and no canonical use of BFR. DB doesn't have a lot of hax and those characters who do have it use it only within a limited scope e.g. Whis only able to rewind time up to 3 minutes and is unable to use it for a long time afterwards, and Kaioshins' time rings can only go to the future and not the past.
> 
> Compared that with Megaman X for example:
> 
> ...



DB doesn't use hax because it's a more battle oriented series but it doesn't change the fact that it has it, and even if they don't have soulfuckery they still have transmutation, sealing techniques,  and the kaioshins rings can go to the past, that's why Black fought Goku in the first place when he went searching for Trunks, and Whis did BFR Goku and Vegeta using his staff to another dimension, it has other things like Babidi being able to explode heads when she's in another side of the planet, not to mention shit like Botamo being able to send any attack done to him to another dimension, or how Cell, Buu and the super water could absorb someone, the later who can also keep on doing it beyond planetary scale. 

Also not all characters are limited like Whis, Hit could spam his time-stop, beerus didn't have no problems cancelling energy, and Majin Bu could use his candy beam with no problems either, speaking of him, he was hax as shit the fucker could regenerate from dust, is inmortal, and he learned to teleport just be seeing it.


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## Roman (Sep 16, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> DB doesn't use hax because it's a more battle oriented series but it doesn't change the fact that it has it



Ehm, Guilty Gear has plenty of hax characters, as does the Megaman series. I don't see them as being any less battle oriented works of fiction than Dragon Ball.



Worldbreaker said:


> they still have transmutation, sealing techniques



Never used in the heat of battle once. At least not among top-tiers.



Worldbreaker said:


> and the kaioshins rings can go to the past, that's why Black fought Goku in the first place when he went searching for Trunks



That was an exception to the rule because the ring basically traced the path that Trunks took, and it wasn't long before Black was sucked back into his present. Gowasu explicitly stated it's impossible for the time rings to go to the past on their own.



Worldbreaker said:


> Whis did BFR Goku and Vegeta using his staff to another dimension



I don't remember this ever happening, but maybe because I skipped through the first 40+ episodes of Super.



Worldbreaker said:


> it has other things like Babidi being able to explode heads when she's in another side of the planet



Which only works on fodder. He never did it to anyone worth their salt. He could've soloed the entire verse otherwise.



Worldbreaker said:


> Hit could spam his time-stop



A very limited version of it seeing as he can only stop time for a fraction of a second. It's nothing like what Dio and to a lesser extent Jotaro can do.



Worldbreaker said:


> beerus didn't have no problems cancelling energy



Yes but it's not show/stated that he uses a specific hax to do it. He's powerful enough to stop attacks without any kind of special skill if it's not Champa or anything at or above his level.



Worldbreaker said:


> Majin Bu could use his candy beam with no problems either



Didn't stop Vegito from still kicking Buuhan's ass. Tho I will give you that his regen is really good.

I never said DB doesn't have any hax. I said that it doesn't have a lot of it. Any hax that is there can be dealt with by brute force. Case in point, as I said above, mindfuckery like Babidi's can be dealt with as was shown by Vegeta resisting having his mind completely taken over and actually used the Majin emblem to empower himself in order to fight Goku. Vegito getting turned into candy didn't help Buuhan at all, not to mention an argument can be made that Vegito actually allowed himself to be turned into candy in order to enter Buuhan's body and rescue everyone he absorbed. Time manipulation is very limited compared to how it's used in other series. All in all, the level of hax in DB isn't impressive compared to shit you see in Touhou.


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 16, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Majin Bu could use his candy beam with no problems either, speaking of him, he was hax as shit the fucker could regenerate from dust, is inmortal, and he learned to teleport just be seeing it.


his candy beam doesn't work effectively on someone stronger than him


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 16, 2016)

Roman said:


> Never used in the heat of battle once. At least not among top-tiers.


It was, Super Buu against Vegito. 



Roman said:


> I don't remember this ever happening, but maybe because I skipped through the first 40+ episodes of Super..



This never happened but Whis or Beerus said that Whis could put Goku and Vegeta in a dimension they would be unable to escape from despite Goku being able to teleport through dimension or both of them being able to scream and making a wormhole to another dimension.



Roman said:


> A very limited version of it seeing as he can only stop time for a fraction of a second. It's nothing like what Dio and to a lesser extent Jotaro can do..



Stopping time for a millisecond is a lot of time for someone trillions of times faster than light


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## Toaa (Sep 16, 2016)

The ring nezha wears is not a universe lol.

Also yeah seems the universe is really small how can you make it the same size as ojrs when wukong with hiw 60 thousand mikes jump believed he reached the end of heaven


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## Worldbreaker (Sep 16, 2016)

Roman said:


> Ehm, Guilty Gear has plenty of hax characters, as does the Megaman series. I don't see them as being any less battle oriented works of fiction than Dragon Ball.


There are more brawlers in guilty gear than hax characters



> Never used in the heat of battle once. At least not among top-tiers.


What are you talking about buu uses the candy beam really often



> Which only works on fodder. He never did it to anyone worth their salt. He could've soloed the entire verse otherwise.


Surfer has also only transmutate fodder ass characters doesn't change the fact he has the ability



> A very limited version of it seeing as he can only stop time for a fraction of a second. It's nothing like what Dio and to a lesser extent Jotaro can do.


Guldo has also way better time-stop than Hit, it doesn't change the fact how much dangerous Hit is using his time-stop



> Yes but it's not show/stated that he uses a specific hax to do it. He's powerful enough to stop attacks without any kind of special skill if it's not Champa or anything at or above his level.


I'm pretty sure Bills canceling powers are seen as haxx



> Didn't stop Vegito from still kicking Buuhan's ass. Tho I will give you that his regen is really good.


It doesn't change the fact the hax is there, either way most hax in fiction have a limit there are few exceptions to this



> I never said DB doesn't have any hax. I said that it doesn't have a lot of it. Any hax that is there can be dealt with by brute force. Case in point, as I said above, mindfuckery like Babidi's can be dealt with as was shown by Vegeta resisting having his mind completely taken over and actually used the Majin emblem to empower himself in order to fight Goku. Vegito getting turned into candy didn't help Buuhan at all, not to mention an argument can be made that Vegito actually allowed himself to be turned into candy in order to enter Buuhan's body and rescue everyone he absorbed. Time manipulation is very limited compared to how it's used in other series. All in all, the level of hax in DB isn't impressive compared to shit you see in Touhou.


My point is not that their hax is the most impressive hax in fiction, it is they have it and can use it 



ayyfisk said:


> his candy beam doesn't work effectively on someone stronger than him


In a lot of fictions hax don't work on stronger opponents not only DB

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Gordo solos (Sep 16, 2016)

Vegetto resisted the candy beam because of his magic earrings



ayyfisk said:


> It was, Super Buu against Vegito.


Kid Boo also used it against SSJ3 Goku, but he dodged it. Mr. Boo used it against Evil Boo, etc

I agree DB barely focuses on hax but they have used it in the midst of battle before


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## Toaa (Sep 16, 2016)

"I can do many tricks indeed," the Great Sage replied. "I can perform seventy−two transformations, and I can
preserve my youth for ten thousand kalpas. I can ride a somersault cloud that takes me thirty−six thousand
miles at a single jump. So why shouldn't I sit on the throne of Heaven?"
"I'll have a wager with you then," said the Buddha. "If you're clever enough to get out of my right hand with a
single somersault, you will be the winner, and there will be no more need for weapons or fighting: I shall
invite the Jade Emperor to come and live in the West and abdicate the Heavenly Palace to you. But if you
can't get out of the palm of my hand you will have to go down to the world below as a devil and train yourself
for several more kalpas before coming to argue about it again."



Thats wukong and the wager 

Yes, yes," the Buddha replied, and he stretched out his right hand, which seemed to be about the size of a
lotus leaf. Putting away his As−You−Will cudgel, the Great Sage summoned up all his divine powers, jumped
into the palm of the Buddha's hand, and said, "I'm off." Watch him as he goes like a streak of light and
disappears completely. The Buddha, who was watching him with his wise eyes, saw the Monkey King
whirling forward like a windmill and not stopping until he saw five flesh−pink pillars topped by dark vapours.
"This is the end of the road," he said, "so now I'll go back. The Buddha will be witness, and the Hall of
Miraculous Mist will be mine." Then he thought again, "Wait a moment. I'll leave my mark here to prove my
case when I talk to the Buddha." He pulled out a hair, breathed on it with his magic breath, and shouted
"Change." It turned into a writing brush dipped in ink, and with it he wrote THE GREAT SAGE EQUALING
HEAVEN WAS HERE in big letters on the middle pillar. When that was done he put the hair back on, and,
not standing on his dignity, made a pool of monkey piss at the foot of the pillar. Then he turned his somersault
round and went back to where he had started from.
"I went, and now I'm back. Tell the Jade Emperor to hand the Heavenly Palace over to me," he said, standing
in the Buddha's palm.
"I've got you, you piss−spirit of a monkey," roared the Buddha at him. "You never left the palm of my hand."
"You're wrong there," the Great Sage replied. "I went to the farthest point of
Heaven, where I saw five
flesh−pink pillars topped by dark vapours. I left my mark there: do you dare come and see it with me?"
"There's no need to go. Just look down." The Great Sage looked down with his fire eyes with golden pupils to
see the words "The Great Sage Equaling Heaven Was Here" written on the middle finger of the Buddha's right
hand. The stink of monkey−piss rose from the fold at the bottom of the finger.
"What a thing to happen," exclaimed the Great Sage in astonishment. "I wrote this on one of the pillars
supporting the sky, so how can it be on his finger now? He must have used divination to know what I was
going to do. I don't believe it. I refuse to believe it! I'll go there and come back again."


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 16, 2016)

Can someone post and organize any and all relevant quotes/passages from the myth with proper citation like you would any other series?

Not just list a page and expect us to find it or not random walls of text with no citation

Preferably scans from the actual book or whatever the fuck

This is a niche of a niche, why the fuck is the average poster going to know about any of the shit you're all talking about or how to find it?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 16, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Vegetto resisted the candy beam because of his magic earrings


was that stated? hax tend to not work on opponents stronger than yourself in Dragon Ball


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 16, 2016)

I imagine the candy beam, in order to move as candy, probably requires

A.  Being strong enough to retain some kind of sentience
B.  Something that allows for mobility while you're a piece of fucking chocolate (flight via some kind of magical energy)

If you only possess A, you're still fucked if you don't have B given mobility is kind of needed to fight, and a piece of candy doesn't move via conventional means *shrugs*


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2016)

I don't usually bother with DBS threads these days but I'll make a change for it this one time.



HoroHoro said:


> Sun Wukong, easily.



Possibly.



> the dude leaped across the universe in a single jump.



Do you have a time frame for that? Because I don't remember one being stated so its a bit ambiguous.



> >Beat the entire army of heaven.



They are featless, it doesn't really say much.



> >Is completely immortal. No matter what, you can't kill him.



Depends on his limits and form of immortality.



> >Defeated all the Gods, aside from Buddha (Buddha is omnipotent).



When was Buddha stated to be omnipotent? I remember it might've been implied he has some form of pseudo-omniscience, but never omnipotence iirc.



> >Defeated the Jade Emperor (Who could rearrange the Milky Way).



Rearranging one galaxy doesn't really trump over someone who can blast several away.



> >The Ruyi Jingu Bang (His version of Goku's Power Pole), a shape-shifting stave of metal which was reported to weigh more than 13,000 pounds.



This really is worthless.



> >Can freeze people who aren't powerful.



Doesn't really seem like he has more power then Goku, so I'm not sure how this will be relevant either.



> >Teleportation (Sort of like Shunkan Ido).



So they can both teleport, its still a stalemate.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Sep 16, 2016)

> . There are more brawlers in guilty gear than hax characters



Literally
90% of the cast in GG has fucking hax

Fuck right off with that bullshit

Reactions: Like 2


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## TobiSan (Sep 16, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Sun Wukong, easily. He was basically Buddha-level at the end of Journey to the West, meaning he's omnipotent or close to it. Either way you look at it, Goku's fucked. Shit, the dude leaped across the universe in a single jump.
> 
> Other feats including if not limited:
> >He can turn all his hairs into any material in the universe.
> ...



1. Doesn't help him much in the battle.
2. That feat can't be quantified.
3. Mostly featless army.
4. That's NLF, that is like saying Deapool with Thanos' curse can't be blinked out of existence.
5. Again mostly featless Gods.
6. (have to read more about this part) also how does rearranging galaxy help in a fight?
7. That is only a little more than 6 tons.
8. Also kinda useless in this battle.
9. Same as above.

He wasn't Omnipotent at the end of the Novel, there were multiple Buddha level characters not all of the can be Omnipotent, that would go against Omnipotence itself. Also having said powers is not feat.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Gordo solos (Sep 16, 2016)

Why did someone mention 6 1/2 tons like it means anything here?


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## Keollyn (Sep 16, 2016)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Literally
> 90% of the cast in GG has fucking hax
> 
> Fuck right off with that bullshit



Rob stop lie. We all know that none of them have hax and most GG characters are wall level with sub-snail speed.

At best they can hax some wood real good.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Sep 16, 2016)

oh right, how could I forget

Silly me

I must have been playing that chinese bootleg copy I bought at a flea market in Coppenhagen called Gears that aren't Guilty
and confused the characters including the protagonist Sun Villaindude

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Keollyn (Sep 16, 2016)

I'd knew you'd understand. Worldbreaker has the only legit copies of GG, and he let me borrow it so I can vouch for him.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Sep 16, 2016)

of course of course

How can I refute such overwhelming proof.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Keollyn (Sep 16, 2016)

It's as geniune as Goku being stuck in the Backyard.


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## SSBMonado (Sep 17, 2016)

Can someone give context to the "reaching the end of the universe by leaping 60 thousand miles" thing?
If that really is what the text says, then doesn't it make it extremely unlikely that the journey to the west verse is as large as the real universe?


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## hammer (Sep 17, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Can someone give context to the "reaching the end of the universe by leaping 60 thousand miles" thing?
> If that really is what the text says, then doesn't it make it extremely unlikely that the journey to the west verse is as large as the real universe?



the english text has a few different translations so we should be careful with which one we look at.


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## Toaa (Sep 17, 2016)

Yeah so which is real any chinese


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## TobiSan (Sep 17, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Why did someone mention 6 1/2 tons like it means anything here?



I don't know, people like to mention that Wukong carries a staff that weighs 13,000 pounds without just punching the numbers into Google and realizing that is little over 6 tons, nothing impressive, especially against DB characters.


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## Juub (Sep 17, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> his candy beam doesn't work effectively on someone stronger than him


That's Dragon Ball for you. Hax isn't really worth something if the opponent is too strong.

Majin Buu's Henka beam didn't stop Vegeto from kicking his ass.
Vegeto managed to protect himself from being absorbed by Majin Buu.
Vegeta easily broke free of Babid's mind control.
Guldo's time stop didn't save him from being killed.
General Blue's paralyzing gaze didn't work against Tao Pai Pai.
Everyone with crazy regen can still get killed if overwhelmed enough.

There's some limited hax in Dragon Ball but power always reigns supreme there. Psychics, magicians, gods etc. None of them does to well against enemies who are too strong.

Reactions: Agree 1


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