# Current Naruto and Sasuke vs Hashirama Senju



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

Battlefield: Valley of the End
Starting Distance: 50 Meters
Restrictions: Chakra consumption of Naruto's forms by Hashirama, suppression of Kurama.
Knowledge: Naruto and Sasuke have all the knowledge of Hashirama from Kurama.

Who wins?


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## Kai (Jun 12, 2013)

If Naruto chakra transfers Sasuke, Sasuke would gain power comparable or greater to that of Madara.

Hashirama can't beat an Uchiha of Madara's level and BM Naruto simultaneously, but his Sage Mode will give the two main characters very high difficulty.

Without chakra transfer they lose at about moderate difficulty.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm fairly sure Hashirama would defeat both quite easily. None of Sasuke's feats put him on Hashirama's level, or even Madara's level, so he can't really do much. His Susano'o would be useless against the majority of Hashirama's higher end jutsu, and while Amaterasu and enton could be deadly here, Hashirama would probably be able to kill him before they ever came into play.

Naruto is the true 'threat' here, though I wouldn't exactly call him a threat. Hashirama was taking on the full Kyūbi with Madara, while here he is fighting Naruto (who is weaker than Madara) and half of the Kyūbi, which is obviously weaker than the full thing. Hashirama, even in base, was able to defeat the two individually, and was still able to survive for a while against a Kyūbi coated in perfect Susano'o, and then ripped perfect Susano'o off the Kyūbi while taking it out and punching back it's Susano'o enhanced bijū-dama attacks. This is all in one attack, against a superior duo.

Sure, Naruto may be the Kyūbi's jinchūriki, but Madara's abilities complimented it a lot more. It was able to coat it in a powerful defense, as well as increase the damage output of it's bijū-dama. Naruto can only tap into it's power, and even that's only temporarily (though the restriction is seemingly gone now).


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2013)

Hashirama spams Mokuton and restrains them both while he enters Sage Mode.

By the time they have escaped, he will just obliterate them from the face of the Earth with Shinsuusenju.

Hashirama babyshakes.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

Shinsenju'u isn't going to damage Naruto in his full Biju Mode form considering he could tank a blast from the Jyubi without much damage. And the reason why Kurama was clad in Susano'o Armor was so that Hashirama couldn't suppress him. 

How was the damage output increased with the Susano'o Sword? The manga blatantly made it clear the reason for that was to stop Hashirama from redirecting the Bijudama-NOT to increase its power.

For someone 'weaker' than Hashirama, he's survived-and helped the Alliance survive against the Jyubi, Edo Madara, and Obito all using his own power. Even Tenpenchii couldn't destroy the chakra cloaks he gives out. 

And Hashirama is far slower than Naruto too and how isn't a full Jinchuriki's abilities-which have been said to be stronger than the beast's own, not superior to Kurama back then when he was a mindless beast?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinsenju'u isn't going to damage Naruto in his full Biju Mode form considering he could tank a blast from the Jyubi without much damage.



Shinsuusenju overpowered literally about a dozen Perfect Susano'o swords combined with a dozen Bijuudama from Madara's Kyuubi Megazord.

BM Naruto dies magnificently.



> And the reason why Kurama was clad in Susano'o Armor was so that Hashirama couldn't suppress him.



Where was this stated?



> How was the damage output increased with the Susano'o Sword? The manga blatantly made it clear the reason for that was to stop Hashirama from redirecting the Bijudama-NOT to increase its power.



Where was this stated?

I think combining the obvious cutting capability of the Perfect Susano'o sword with the rotation and velocity of Bijuudama is obviously going produce a visible difference in the attack's penetrative power.

Just a hunch.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> For someone 'weaker' than Hashirama, he's survived-and helped the Alliance survive against the Jyubi, Edo Madara, and Obito all using his own power.



Because of some generic shounen power transfer bullshit. It's an impressive feat, but it's not going to help him here without the alliance to back him up.



> Even Tenpenchii couldn't destroy the chakra cloaks he gives out.



What does that actually tell us about Naruto's durability, though?



> And Hashirama is far slower than Naruto too



Not really. Madara had no trouble restraining him.



> and how isn't a full Jinchuriki's abilities-which have been said to be stronger than the beast's own, not superior to Kurama back then when he was a mindless beast?



It doesn't really matter if they are superior because Hashirama is superior to the Kyuubi by several orders of rape magnitude.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Shinsuusenju overpowered literally about a dozen Perfect Susano'o swords combined with a dozen Bijuudama from Madara's Kyuubi Megazord.
> 
> BM Naruto dies magnificently.


BM Naruto took a Jyubi Bijudama head on and only lost literal chakra tails without any damage. Sorry, taking that technique means Shinsusenju won't damage him.




> Where was this stated?


It was fucking implied. Hell, the second Susano'o Armor was stripped (and Kurama was undamaged by the barrage) Hashirama immediately went to suppression. He couldn't suppress with Susano'o armor on Kurama.

It was made blatantly obvious on how Hashirama behaved with Susano'o Armor and when he became desperate to suppress Kurama's power immediately after Susano'o was stripped.


> Where was this stated?
> 
> I think combining the obvious cutting capability of the Perfect Susano'o sword with the rotation and velocity of Bijuudama is obviously going produce a visible difference in the attack's penetrative power.
> 
> Just a hunch.


Right here. Madara himself taunts him on 'grab it if you can'.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinsenju'u isn't going to damage Naruto in his full Biju Mode form considering he could tank a blast from the Jyubi without much damage.



... but the attack has canonically almost one-shot Kurama. I think it's pretty obvious that Naruto would not tank the jutsu, given how Hashirama has been depibted in the manga. By feats, and both literary intent, Hashirama is the superior of the two.



> And the reason why Kurama was clad in Susano'o Armor was so that Hashirama couldn't suppress him.



No, I'm pretty sure that was just to increase it's defensive capabilities, like what Susano'o is meant to do. It was put up immediately after the explosion caused by Hashirama deflecting it's attack, which suggests that it was used to absorb some of the damage.



> How was the damage output increased with the Susano'o Sword? The manga blatantly made it clear the reason for that was to stop Hashirama from redirecting the Bijudama-NOT to increase its power.



It's basically two attacks in one, so it's obviously going to be stronger. It has the piercing/cutting power of the sword, as well as the explosive strength of it's core attack.



> For someone 'weaker' than Hashirama, he's survived-and helped the Alliance survive against the Jyubi, Edo Madara, and Obito all using his own power. Even Tenpenchii couldn't destroy the chakra cloaks he gives out.



It's Naruto and the entire alliance (which has a huge number of people) helping him, not just him on his own. There was an entire point meant to be hammered home about Naruto not doing stuff on his own, and needing to rely on others. This is exactly what he's been doing. I'm not denying that he's strong, but without the alliance he would have been long gone by now. Furthermore, Naruto hasn't been helping them survive against the Juubi, Madara and Obito. At this point, it's pretty much just the Juubi, because the moment it came out, Madara and Obito pretty much stopped contributing to the battle outside of the occasional quip and trying to control the beast.



> Jinchuriki's abilities-which have been said to be stronger than the beast's own,



Because this is just half of the beast's total power. When was this said anyway?



> not superior to Kurama back then when he was a mindless beast?



Kurama was never really a mindless beast, and it's clear that he's very intelligent also. Probably smarter than Naruto.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> BM Naruto took a Jyubi Bijudama head on and only lost literal chakra tails without any damage. Sorry, taking that technique means Shinsusenju won't damage him.



Naruto took one Bijuudama from the Juubi. Shinsuusenju wiped away about a dozen PS-augmented Bijuudama from the Kyuubi.



> It was fucking implied.



You have a bad habit of seeing implications where there are none and then treating them like given facts.

Where was it implied? What makes it implicit?



> Hell, the second Susano'o Armor was stripped (and Kurama was undamaged by the barrage) Hashirama immediately went to suppression. He couldn't suppress with Susano'o armor on Kurama.



I'm sure that's probably one of the perks, but you claimed that this was the _*reason*_ Madara put Perfect Susano'o on the Kyuubi in the first place. Did Madara state this, or did you just read his mind? Or did you...God forbid...jump the gun and make an assumptive statement without evidence? 

As Atlantic pointed out, Madara coated the Kyuubi in direct response to the Bijuudama detonating at point-blank:

explosion caused by Hashirama deflecting it's attack

I don't recall ever hearing a reason from him, but it's fairly obvious that PS augmented both the durability and the offensive power of the Kyuubi, besides apparently preventing Hashirama from suppressing it.



> It was made blatantly obvious on how Hashirama behaved with Susano'o Armor and when he became desperate to suppress Kurama's power immediately after Susano'o was stripped.



What does that have to do with Madara's reasoning?

Hashirama saw an opportunity and he jumped at it.



> Right here. Madara himself taunts him on 'grab it if you can'.



...Doesn't that just prove that the sword enhanced the penetrative power of Bijuudama by adding a cutting element that Hashirama's Mokuton couldn't stop?

Hashirama caught the Kyuubi's normal Bijuudama and threw it back in Madara's face. It was this Perfect Susano'o version that he had to deflect.


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## richard lewis (Jun 12, 2013)

I think amaterasu would spell disaster for hashi since he has no way of putting out the flames and they will continue to spread until all of his wood is on fire. And as stated b4 if naruto give sasuke kurama chakra his susanoo should be beyond madara's b/c not only will it be much larger and stronger than b4 but sasuke also has enton to top it off.


*Spoiler*: __ 



And naruto and sasuke's recent feat of mixing amaterasu and FRS together is really gunna screw hashi over


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2013)

Naruto and Sasuke win. 

Naruto can give his chakra to Sasuke so make him 3 times stronger than what he really is. 
His Enton should be much bigger and stronger. Therefore, all of Hashi's wood are useless 
Hashi has nothing to protect him from the Enton, nor does he have the speed to avoid it! and if he did,
then Naruto blitze him! 

Since the ONLY Hope that Hashi has is his Buddha, I really doubt that he can use it while it burned in the
Enton.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

Atlantic said:


> ... but the attack has canonically almost one-shot Kurama. I think it's pretty obvious that Naruto would not tank the jutsu, given how Hashirama has been depibted in the manga. By feats, and both literary intent, Hashirama is the superior of the two.


No, it didn't. All that Shinsusenju did was strip Kurama of the only thing keeping him from being suppressed, the the Susano'o Armor. Logically, he'd have taken thousands of blows after the Susano'o Armor was hit, but he didn't take a lick of damage. 

Naruto being able to survive the Jyubi's Bijudama head on means he won't be damaged while in Biju Mode.


> No, I'm pretty sure that was just to increase it's defensive capabilities, like what Susano'o is meant to do. It was put up immediately after the explosion caused by Hashirama deflecting it's attack, which suggests that it was used to absorb some of the damage.


Kurama can tank his own Bijudama anyway, why would he need Susano'o Armor to survive it? Hell that was a standard power Bijudama too, just as strong as one the other Biju can use (due to the size, shape, and consistency of it). 

The manga showed that Hashirama was desperate to suppress Kurama, and Susano'o Armor was preventing it.


> It's basically two attacks in one, so it's obviously going to be stronger. It has the piercing/cutting power of the sword, as well as the explosive strength of it's core attack.


Except it didn't show at all it was stronger. Not once was any power increase. Susano'o Swords power comes from Susano'os swings, which breaking it off and putting it into a Bijudama robs it from. 

Madara even said that the Susano'o Sword was just used to keep Hashirama from catching the Bijudama again.


> It's Naruto and the entire alliance (which has a huge number of people) helping him, not just him on his own. There was an entire point meant to be hammered home about Naruto not doing stuff on his own, and needing to rely on others. This is exactly what he's been doing. I'm not denying that he's strong, but without the alliance he would have been long gone by now. Furthermore, Naruto hasn't been helping them survive against the Juubi, Madara and Obito. At this point, it's pretty much just the Juubi, because the moment it came out, Madara and Obito pretty much stopped contributing to the battle outside of the occasional quip and trying to control the beast.


...because of Naruto _solely_, the Alliance survived fighting Madara and Obito for a considerable amount of time, on top of Tenpenchii. It was _his power_ that he gave to them that allowed them to survive, fight back, and counter. That was hammered down explicitly in these chapters. 




> Because this is just half of the beast's total power. When was this said anyway?


Except its not just the Yang Half anymore, its Naruto's chakra melded with his own. Hell, when did the manga itself say Kurama got weaker anyway? No point at all was that said.

Not only that, current Kurama with Naruto partnership is arguably stronger than 'Full' Kurama due to the fact that Naruto can perform jutsus that Kurama can't on his own. 


> Kurama was never really a mindless beast, and it's clear that he's very intelligent also. Probably smarter than Naruto.


But when controlled by Madara or Obito? He _is_ a mindless beast. He can't share chakra. He can't control the size and power of his Bijudama. He can't USE that intelligence. Thats why its an inferior duo.

Hell, Naruto powering up Sasuke, him using Biju Mode, will be an extremely hard fight for Hashirama even with Hashirama's Sage Mode. Naruto is the fastest ninja in the manga which means Hashirama touching him will be extremely difficult, and Sasuke's Susano'o variants will increase in power greatly. Current Naruto is basically Minato + Kurama + Himself (speed, power, and endurance) which is a deadly combination against Hashirama.


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## αce (Jun 12, 2013)

> Hashirama is the superior of the two. 			 		 	 	 No, it didn't. All that Shinsusenju did was strip Kurama of the  only thing keeping him from being suppressed, the the Susano'o Armor.  Logically, he'd have taken thousands of blows after the Susano'o Armor  was hit, but he didn't take a lick of damage.



The buddha statue stopped hitting the Kyuubi the moment Susano-o broke.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

αce said:


> The buddha statue stopped hitting the Kyuubi the moment Susano-o broke.


You do realize the sheer amount of blows would have to mean Kurama was hit, right? You can't even claim that due to the Shinsusenju being BROKEN afterwards-it was done after the barrage.


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2013)

I wonder, if the Enton's heat made the cave return to its original 
differ

Is the same thing going to happen to the woods?


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> I wonder, if the Enton's heat made the cave return to its original
> differ
> 
> Is the same thing going to happen to the woods?



I presume the heat just made the cave melt back into place. It wouldn't have the same effect on wood.


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## αce (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm not even sure what you just said, but yes, Hashirama stopped the assault immediately after the Kyuubi's Susano-o cloak had been stripped. The notion that the Kyuubi continued to take hits after the Susano-o cloak was stripped is a curious stance to take considering the fact that Madara would have died if that happened The statue broke afterwards but the assault that it laid onto the Susano-o ended the moment Susano-o broke. He then picked up the Kyuubi and took away Madara's control. 

If you think the Kyuubi took hits from Hashirama _without_ the Susano-o cloak , I'd like to hear your explanation as to why Madara was still breathing since his protecting was also Susano-o. The entire point of that assault was to rid the Kyuubi of Susano-o and then rip it away from Madara. 


In fact, you can see the Susano-o being stripped in the exact same panel that he stops attacking...He simply picks it up like a puppy afterwards 

differ


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

αce said:


> I'm not even sure what you just said, but yes, Hashirama stopped the assault immediately after the Kyuubi's Susano-o cloak had been stripped. The notion that the Kyuubi continued to take hits after the Susano-o cloak was stripped is a curious stance to take considering the fact that Madara would have died if that happened The statue broke afterwards but the assault that it laid onto the Susano-o ended the moment Susano-o broke. He then picked up the Kyuubi and took away Madara's control.
> 
> If you think the Kyuubi took hits from Hashirama _without_ the Susano-o cloak , I'd like to hear your explanation as to why Madara was still breathing since his protecting was also Susano-o. The entire point of that assault was to rid the Kyuubi of Susano-o and then rip it away from Madara.
> 
> ...


Kurama had to take hits on the body. The reason why the barrage stopped: IT HAD BEEN DESTROYED IN THE CLASH! Not because Hashirama stopped it, it was stopped in the clash of the Renkozu Bijudama and Top Transformed Buddha barrage. 

We even see where the barrage hits: Right on Kurama's back and sides, not his head where Madara was.

The only reason why the attack stopped is because the Shinsusenju was badly damaged afterwards to the point where the remnants of the thousand hands broke off.


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## αce (Jun 12, 2013)

I honestly don't understand what you are saying here. The entire time that barrage was going on the Kyuubi had a Susano-o cloak around him... Are you saying that the Kyuubi could have simply tanked all of that without Susano-o? Okay, fair enough, but you're going to have to admit that it's pure speculation since he never directly took any of those punches.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

αce said:


> I honestly don't understand what you are saying here. The entire time that barrage was going on the Kyuubi had a Susano-o cloak around him... Are you saying that the Kyuubi could have simply tanked all of that without Susano-o? Okay, fair enough, but you're going to have to admit that it's pure speculation since he never directly took any of those punches.


What's so hard to understand ace? The Susano'o cloak broke off of Kurama. Kurama had to take the barrage himself after Susano'o was stripped due to the sheer amount of blows. The barrage itself was _aimed specifically at Kurama's back, not his face_. 

Whats so hard for you to understand about that, Ace?


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

You see Susano'o being removed as soon as all the fists are crumbled, though. It clearly depicts it so that Hashirama's attack didn't actually manage to get through to Kurama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

Atlantic said:


> You see Susano'o being removed as soon as all the fists are crumbled, though. It clearly depicts it so that Hashirama's attack didn't actually manage to get through to Kurama.


Why wouldn't they get through? There were literally THOUSANDS of blows. Shinsusenju crumbled first.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why wouldn't they get through? There were literally THOUSANDS of blows. Shinsusenju crumbled first.



Because perfect Susano'o was presumably quite tough and hard to completely bust through? Shinsusenju was used as a way to counter Madara's rapid-fire attack, as well as to peel off Susano'o, not as a way to actually defeat Kurama, because Hashirama could do that easily.


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## Krippy (Jun 12, 2013)

With Chakra suppression restricted and Chakra sharing not, Naruto gives Sasuke some of his chakra and they dominate. Naruto starts nuking the shit out of Buddha and Sasuke spams large scale Amaterasu, sets up multiple Kirin's, and that should end it.

I think they can take it with Mid diff, depending on how Enton interacts with Mokuton.


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2013)

Can the Buddha even hit Naruto? lol 
you know, just because Madara was sitting there, that  does not mean
Naruto will site there. Hashi has no way to land a hit on Naruto unless Naruto
was holding back and not using his speed.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

Krippy said:


> With Chakra suppression restricted and Chakra sharing not, Naruto gives Sasuke some of his chakra and they dominate. Naruto starts nuking the shit out of Buddha and Sasuke spams large scale Amaterasu, sets up multiple Kirin's, and that should end it.
> 
> I think they can take it with Mid diff, depending on how Enton interacts with Mokuton.



I don't think it's in either of their characters to do that sort of thing. Naruto might be willing to give Sasuke chakra to boost his jutsu, but I don't think Sasuke would be so willing.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 12, 2013)

are people really using the juubis bijudama as an excuse for naruto tanking chojo kebetsu?

by feats, the statues barrage is superior. it created an entire valley with one attack. the juubis bijudama only took out a line of mountains and left a moderate depression in the ground.

*madara was in the diamond of PS which was attached to the kyuubis face.* after chojo kebetsu, the susano armor around the kyuubis face was completely torn off. madara was protected by the diamond of PS which was on the kyuubis head and he took no damage. just from this, we can already conclude that the statues barrage was only strong enough to rip off the PS armor without hurting madara or the kyuubi.


OT: hashirama wins even with the nonsensical restricitons.


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> are people really using the juubis bijudama as an excuse for naruto tanking chojo kebetsu?
> 
> by feats, the statues barrage is superior. it created an entire valley with one attack. the juubis bijudama only took out a line of mountains and left a moderate depression in the ground.
> 
> ...



How Hashi will hit Naruto?
It does not matter how strong you are, if you can't hit your foes, you can't win.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> How Hashi will hit Naruto?
> It does not matter how strong you are, if you can't your foes, you can't win.



Naruto isn't fast enough to completely avoid an attack of that scale. If he doesn't get hit by individual fists, he'll get hit by the shockwave.


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2013)

Atlantic said:


> Naruto isn't fast enough to completely avoid an attack of that scale. If he doesn't get hit by individual fists, he'll get hit by the shockwave.



lol what? 
I'm not sure if you are talking about the Buddha or any other jutsu, but please
prove that Hashi's jutsus are faster than Naruto, I'm waiting. 


> he'll get hit by the shockwave



???? 
how so?


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> lol what?
> I'm not sure if you are talking about the Buddha or any other jutsu, but please
> prove that Hashi's jutsus are faster than Naruto, I'm waiting.



That's not what I'm saying. I didn't mention anything about Hashirama's jutsu speed in that post; just the scale. What I'm saying is that Hashirama's jutsu are so _big_ that Naruto outrunning them is not possible. At least, not to the point where he could completely evade it. Could you really imagine Kishimoto having Naruto just outrun Hashirama's strongest jutsu? You're ignoring the author's literary intent. 



> ????
> how so?



By being huge. The attack hollowed out the land and made a huge valley.


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## Krippy (Jun 12, 2013)

Atlantic said:


> I don't think it's in either of their characters to do that sort of thing. Naruto might be willing to give Sasuke chakra to boost his jutsu, but I don't think Sasuke would be so willing.



hm.... good point. But I don't this CIS like this will apply when Buddah comes out. Unless we assume Sauce can already use PS on the level of Madara along with Enton. 

But that's just my opinion.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

Krippy said:


> hm.... good point. But I don't this CIS like this will apply when Buddah comes out. Unless we assume Sauce can already use PS on the level of Madara along with Enton.
> 
> But that's just my opinion.



Honestly, even with Hashirama's ultimate jutsu, I don't think it would come to that. The Juubi is a stronger foe, a greater threat and is open to attacks, yet Naruto has yet to pump Sasuke up with chakra so that he can nuke it. The two are rivals, and I don't see one of them just juicing the other up with chakra so the latter can blast the opponent.


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2013)

Atlantic said:


> That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Hashirama's jutsu are so _big_ that Naruto outrunning them is not possible. At least, not to the point where he could completely evade it. Could you really imagine Kishimoto having Naruto just outrun Hashirama's strongest jutsu?
> 
> 
> 
> By being huge. The attack hollowed out the land and made a huge valley.



- Even if they are big, all what has to do is going the other way, when the jutsu stopped by itself
then it becomes useless. For example, Madara used those woods against the Gokage, when 
Naruto defeated that jutsu it stopped
[5]
after that just being there won't do anything. Again
[5]

the Wood is everywhere, but who cares? it can't do anything when after the first attack
and that happened in the battle where old Hiruzen defeated Hashirama. 

So, yes, Naruto can EASILY avoid it or even destroy is as he did (with only clone)  then it wont
be a problem. 



> By being huge. The attack hollowed out the land and made a huge valley


but there was not any  shockwave  if I remember it's only because of the bunches! 
Also, what do you thing of this?
[5]

is not that Huge? but what happened to Naruto? Nothing.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> - Even if they are big, all what has to do is going the other way, when the jutsu stopped by itself
> then it becomes useless. For example, Madara used those woods against the Gokage, when
> Naruto defeated that jutsu it stopped
> [5]
> ...



Those were not the jutsu I'm referring to. Not only are they much smaller in scale, but they're comparatively easier to handle due to being a straightforward, linear jutsu which fires straight at you and hits anything along the way. The one I'm referring to is not only much bigger in scale, but also pin-point attacks the foe. There is no way Naruto could just dodge it.

Again, refer to literary intent. Do you honestly think Kishimoto could just write Naruto dancing or dodging around Hashirama's ultimate jutsu like that? Hashirama is depicted as Naruto's superior, or at the very least, equal. Their power level difference is not as such that Naruto could evade everything Hashirama throws at him. This guy has received hype without parallel, and is literally referred to as the God of Shinobi. 



> the Wood is everywhere, but who cares? it can't do anything when after the first attack
> and that happened in the battle where old Hiruzen defeated Hashirama.



The battle where Hiruzen defeated a severely weakened and diluted Hashirama, yes. 



> So, yes, Naruto can EASILY avoid it or even destroy is as he did (with only clone)  then it wont
> be a problem.



Naruto _can't_ destroy it, though. His damage output and damage per second rate is much slower and weaker than what Madara tried against Hashirama, and ultimately failed with. 



> but there was not any  shockwave  if I remember it's only because of the bunches!



That's not how it works. An impact of that kind of level and momentum is obviously going to have shockwaves carrying the energy out.



> Also, what do you thing of this?
> [5]
> 
> is not that Huge? but what happened to Naruto? Nothing.



It still obviously hit Naruto, and everybody else in the alliance, and given that Madara tanked it with a casual Susano'o, it's obviously not as strong as Hashirama's jutsu. It was implied that it was just used to take out the weaker shinobi in the alliance, not finish Naruto off.


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2013)

Atlantic said:


> Those were not the jutsu I'm referring to. Not only are they much smaller in scale, but they're comparatively easier to handle due to being a straightforward, linear jutsu which fires straight at you and hits anything along the way. The one I'm referring to is not only much bigger in scale, but also pin-point attacks the foe. There is no way Naruto could just dodge it.
> 
> Again, refer to literary intent. Do you honestly think Kishimoto could just write Naruto dancing or dodging around Hashirama's ultimate jutsu like that? Hashirama is depicted as Naruto's superior, or at the very least, equal. Their power level difference is not as such that Naruto could evade everything Hashirama throws at him. This guy has received hype without parallel, and is literally referred to as the God of Shinobi.
> 
> ...



- I'm lost now.  are not those the largest jutsu that Hashi has? (other than his Buddha) 
Please be clear, What jutsu are you talking about exactly? and just in case, even if it were
the Buddha dodging that is actually much easier. 

Also, remember that Sasuke has his hawks so he's pretty much save. 

- Yes, I actually do, Especially when Kishi want to prove that Naruto > all those who came before him. Now, Do you seriously think Kishi will make Naruto and Sasuke lose as if they were nothing as Hashi's wankers said? lol 

- Well, Hiruzen was at his 70, fighting 3 Hokage level at the same time, does not have enough
chakra to use his jutus, that much worst than Hashi, isn't ? because if it weren't for the edo
Hiruzen would have defeated then with explosion tags. lol 

- Naruto can't destroy the Buddha indeed, and Buddha can't hit Naruto, but he's where Sasuke's
role come. With Naruto's chakra he can burn the Buddha with his Enton, I doubt that Hashi
will be able to stand on its head to control him, or even attacking Hashi directly from the sky. 

- This is it's impact
differ 
don't overrated it. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THAT THIS WILL BE ENOUGH TO TAKE 
NARUTO DOWN, NO WAY. 

- But, it did nothing and this is the important thing. And saying this





> and given that Madara tanked it with a casual Susano'o, it's obviously not as strong as Hashirama's jutsu


has absolutely no value. Because it's not like the impact of Hashi's jutsus made Madara need
the PS, Madara was talking the real punches directly! 


Anyway, Since this seems to be long, I think we'd batter to wait.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> - I'm lost now.  are not those the largest jutsu that Hashi has? (other than his Buddha)
> Please be clear, What jutsu are you talking about exactly? and just in case, even if it were
> the Buddha dodging that is actually much easier.



The jutsu I'm talking is the one Hashirama used to break Susano'o. I thought this was kind of obvious. It's senpō: mokuton: shin sūsenju and chōjō kebutsu. 



> Also, remember that Sasuke has his hawks so he's pretty much save.



You mean the hawk which has no speed feats? His hawks have literally shown nothing impressive, and again, literary intent would suggest that Hashirama would easily be able to nail it. Hashirama fights on par with the Kyūbi and Madara alone, in base. A hawk isn't going to evade his attacks.



> - Yes, I actually do, Especially when Kishi want to prove that Naruto > all those who came before him. Now, Do you seriously think Kishi will make Naruto and Sasuke lose as if they were nothing as Hashi's wankers said? lol



At the moment, yes. They haven't displayed anything as impressive as Hashirama yet, who literally walked in, and trapped the Juubi with a jutsu, before the other Hokage came in and helped out. Naruto may be superior to Hashirama, but the difference in level isn't as such that Naruto would be able to dodge all his jutsu. 



> - Well, Hiruzen was at his 70, fighting 3 Hokage level at the same time, does not have enough
> chakra to use his jutus, that much worst than Hashi, isn't ? because if it weren't for the edo
> Hiruzen would have defeated then with explosion tags. lol



I don't see how this is relevant here at all. Hashirama was clearly much weaker there. The Hashirama we saw against Madara was much more mobile, dodging and reacting to large scale attacks and explosions. 



> - Naruto can't destroy the Buddha indeed, and Buddha can't hit Naruto, but he's where Sasuke's
> role come. With Naruto's chakra he can burn the Buddha with his Enton, I doubt that Hashi
> will be able to stand on its head to control him, or even attacking Hashi directly from the sky.



Enton would be helpful here, yes. But all things considered, I don't think his attacks have enough power to bust through mokuton where perfect Susano'o swords wielded by the Kyūbi failed. The fire would spread, but Hashirama could probably just add an extra layer on. 



> - This is it's impact
> differ
> don't overrated it. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THAT THIS WILL BE ENOUGH TO TAKE
> NARUTO DOWN, NO WAY.



That is it's impact after having hit back rapid-fire bijū dama with Susano'o swords placed inside them. It was clearly weakened, and I don't think Naruto would be taken down by it with one shot. The fact that it was still strong enough to carve in a valley after having been severely weakened by Madara's own attack is extremely impressive. However, equally, Naruto isn't going to be able to take a clean hit from an attack which could: counter a whole bunch of bijū-dama, and then still have enough power to destroy perfect Susano'o.



> - But, it did nothing and this is the important thing. And saying this
> has absolutely no value. Because it's not like the impact of Hashi's jutsus made Madara need
> the PS, Madara was talking the real punches directly!



Madara wasn't taking the real punches directly. Hashirama using chōjō kebutsu on him directly would have mashed him into pieces, considering it destroyed perfect Susano'o.


----------



## αce (Jun 12, 2013)

> What's so hard to understand ace? The Susano'o cloak broke off of  Kurama.


Yes.




> Kurama had to take the barrage himself after Susano'o was  stripped due to the sheer amount of blows.


No because the barrage stopped the moment Susano-o was stripped. Or more specifically, the barrage stopped and then Susano-o was stripped. The Kyuubi was never exposes to the full force of the blows without Susano-o protecting it. 





> The barrage itself was _aimed specifically at Kurama's back, not his face_.


It was aimed everywhere. And he was cloaked from head to toe anyways. 



> Whats so hard for you to understand about that, Ace


I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of Kyuubi tanking hits from Hashirama's buddha statue when the manga clearly shows Susano-o coming off after the barrage ended.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 12, 2013)

Atlantic said:


> Naruto is the true 'threat' here, though I wouldn't exactly call him a threat. Hashirama was taking on the full Kyūbi with Madara, *while here he is fighting Naruto (who is weaker than Madara)*


BM Naruto's feats put him above or at least on par with EMS Madara w/o Kurama.



Atlantic said:


> and half of the Kyūbi, which is obviously weaker than the full thing.


SM Naruto was beating 50% Kurama.  BM Naruto =/= 50% Kurama.



Atlantic said:


> Hashirama, even in base, was able to defeat the two individually, and was still able to survive for a while against a Kyūbi coated in perfect Susano'o, and then ripped perfect Susano'o off the Kyūbi while taking it out and punching back it's Susano'o enhanced bijū-dama attacks. This is all in one attack, against a superior duo.


hashirama in base in no way was able to defeat EMS Madara and 100% kurama individually.  Madara didn't use perfect Susanoo, Kurama didn't use super bijuudama, rapidfire bijuudama, and even then Hashirama didn't have the upper hand.  



Atlantic said:


> Sure, Naruto may be the Kyūbi's jinchūriki, but Madara's abilities complimented it a lot more.


not at all, Naruto's form basically turns the entire Kyuubi into a chakra construct that has way more durability than Susanoo and can just be reformed.  He blocked the juubi's laserdama with his tails, PS gets blown open by hashirama's jet gattling and 50% Kurama gets incapacitated by one FRS.

Hashirama needs SM to win this, a Naruto unrestricted by plot would destroy Base Hashirama.


----------



## trance (Jun 12, 2013)

How the fuck are they supposed to defend against Hashirama's Mokuton Buddha that easily pounded a Susanoo armored Kyubi? Hashirama takes this low difficulty.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

Lazers said:


> How the fuck are they supposed to defend against Hashirama's Mokuton Buddha that easily pounded a Susanoo armored Kyubi? Hashirama takes this low difficulty.


Naruto has tanking feats that can outright tank that barrage with no trouble. Hell given his given chakra shrouds can tank Tenpenchii, I doubt it'd hurt Sasuke with it too. 

And 'easily pounded'? Shinsusenju was _neutralized first._


----------



## trance (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto has tanking feats that can outright tank that barrage with no trouble. Hell given his given chakra shrouds can tank Tenpenchii, I doubt it'd hurt Sasuke with it too.
> 
> And 'easily pounded'? Shinsusenju was _neutralized first._



The Susanoo armored was dissolved and the Kyubi was literally beaten down to the point that it couldn't even stop Hashirama's Mokujin from grabbing and suppressing it. Shinsusenju was also still up after tanking all those bijudamas.


----------



## puma21 (Jun 12, 2013)

Lazers said:


> How the fuck are they supposed to defend against Hashirama's Mokuton Buddha that easily pounded a Susanoo armored Kyubi? Hashirama takes this low difficulty.



Sit there in his Kyuubi avatar and tank it? Naruto took a juubi dama, Hashirama's buddah punches aren't as strong as that. 

Naruto and sasuke can destroy the state with the technique they did this chapter. Naruto can do his own bijuu dama barrage or do a charged one which wont be caught. 

Low difficulty isn't happening.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

Lazers said:


> The Susanoo armored was dissolved and the Kyubi was literally beaten down to the point that it couldn't even stop Hashirama's Mokujin from grabbing and suppressing it. Shinsusenju was also still up after tanking all those bijudamas.


Shinsusenju took a bunch of unexploded Bijudama's but STILL its primary weapon was destroyed. It broke first before Kurama's Perfect Susano'o Armor was shown to be stripped. And again, Kurama would have logically have taken hundreds of hits due to the sheer AMOUNT. 

And it was _Madara's_ inaction that led to Kurama being suppressed. If he had just fired ONE Bijudama there, Hashirama, whose Sage Mode was running out at that point would have been injured.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama had to take hits on the body. The reason why the barrage stopped: IT HAD BEEN DESTROYED IN THE CLASH!



"I'm losing the argument. CAPS LOCK FOR BETTER ARGUMENT."

Classic SSM12.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What's so hard to understand ace? The Susano'o cloak broke off of Kurama. Kurama had to take the barrage himself after Susano'o was stripped due to the sheer amount of blows. The barrage itself was _aimed specifically at Kurama's back, not his face_.
> 
> Whats so hard for you to understand about that, Ace?



Well, as Ace keeps pointing out to you, Hashirama stopped the assault when the Susano'o armor had been stripped away and we can see that Madara was still alive (despite standing in an area where that armor had been penetrated), suggesting that the Kyuubi took few if any hits without the protection of Perfect Susano'o.



Lazers said:


> How the fuck are they supposed to defend against Hashirama's Mokuton Buddha that easily pounded a Susanoo armored Kyubi? Hashirama takes this low difficulty.



^This is the correct answer.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto has tanking feats that can outright tank that barrage with no trouble.



No he doesn't.



> Hell given his given chakra shrouds can tank Tenpenchii, I doubt it'd hurt Sasuke with it too.



In other words, you made another thread where you had already decided on a winner and expected a totally one-sided fight, but everyone else thinks the exact opposite.

Well this is...typical.



> And 'easily pounded'? Shinsusenju was _neutralized first._



It looks to me like Shinsuusenju was still going:

whole area

whole area

Perfect Susano'o was the one that dissipated completely first, leaving the Kyuubi completely defenseless against getting grabbed.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinsusenju took a bunch of unexploded Bijudama's but STILL its primary weapon was destroyed. It broke first before Kurama's Perfect Susano'o Armor was shown to be stripped. And again, Kurama would have logically have taken hundreds of hits due to the sheer AMOUNT.



Sheer amount of what?

Your so-called "logic" dictates that Madara must've taken those "hundreds" of hits from Shinsuusenju and survived, since he was directly on top of the Kyuubi where the armor had been removed. That's preposterous.



> And it was _Madara's_ inaction that led to Kurama being suppressed. If he had just fired ONE Bijudama there, Hashirama, whose Sage Mode was running out at that point would have been injured.



So I guess the idea of chakra constraints and Madara/the Kyuubi being too tired for that never even occurred to you, huh?


----------



## αce (Jun 12, 2013)

Umm, Hashirama's Buddha was injured but the wooden statue that was on the head of the statue wasn't. He blocked a bijuu dama in base and threw it back at Madara before. He could have done the same even then. Firing a bijuu dama at Hashirama without Susano-o cloaking you is a suicide attempt.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2013)

αce said:


> Umm, Hashirama's Buddha was injured but the wooden statue that was on the head of the statue wasn't. He blocked a bijuu dama in base and threw it back at Madara before. He could have done the same even then. Firing a bijuu dama at Hashirama without Susano-o cloaking you is a suicide attempt.





Hashirama wasn't even in Sage Mode when he did it before, either.


----------



## trance (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinsusenju took a bunch of unexploded Bijudama's but STILL its primary weapon was destroyed. It broke first before Kurama's Perfect Susano'o Armor was shown to be stripped. And again, Kurama would have logically have taken hundreds of hits due to the sheer AMOUNT.



When you said Shinsusenju was neutralized, I assumed you meant the entire jutsu, not just its arms.



> And it was _Madara's_ inaction that led to Kurama being suppressed. If he had just fired ONE Bijudama there, Hashirama, whose Sage Mode was running out at that point would have been injured.



That was just CIS on Madara's part. Of course, It probably would've been ineffective because Hashirama still had his Mokujin that simply would've caught it. 

@Puma

Madara's Incomplete Susanoo tanked the Tenpenchii and Hashirama's Shinsusenju destroyed the Perfect Susanoo. Like I said, low difficulty.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jun 12, 2013)

What the fuck is this shit. I can't even give a serious post.

Naruto solos. Adding Sasuke makes it rape.

The fuck Hashirama gonna do against Naruto& Sasuke's Susanoo-Kurama. Hashirama is met by 20 Giant Rasenshurikens mixed with  Enton arrows the size of  Bijuu thanks to them being amped up by Naruto giving him chakra times 3 (god knows he can give him more, Naruto was just limited by the fact he had to divide his chakra amongst THOUSANDS of people. Now he just have to give one single other person.)

You think Hashirama's Mokuton was battlefield altering? Son...this battleground will be as black as night with Amaterasu. No plant will be growing up in this bitch.

If by some miracles Hashirama corners the two (LOL!) they have the agility to escape any bad predicament. Naruto literally can blitz both of them out of the Susanoo Kurama is push comes to shove and-...wait. Why am I even going here....THEY BATTLE WOULDNT EVEN COME TO THIS.

As Sasuke said,*"BURN."*


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2013)

Lazers said:


> When you said Shinsusenju was neutralized, I assumed you meant the entire jutsu, not just its arms.


The entire arms ARE the jutsu, without them its just a construct. Its primary offensive power was destroyed. 




> That was just CIS on Madara's part. Of course, It probably would've been ineffective because Hashirama still had his Mokujin that simply would've caught it.


Given how he was struggling just to _grab_ Kurama for suppression, I don't think he could have caught a Bijudama at that point.


> @Puma
> 
> Madara's Incomplete Susanoo tanked the Tenpenchii and Hashirama's Shinsusenju destroyed the Perfect Susanoo. Like I said, low difficulty.


Madara was in a Complete Susano'o then, as an Edo Tensei with unlimited chakra and stamina. Not that it matters, Tenpenchii is a far greater attack than Shinsusenju by leaps and bounds, Hashirama has no way of damaging either.

And Naruto still has the feat of tanking a direct blast from the Jyubi without ANY damage aside from his chakra tails (which regenerate) being damaged.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 12, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I wonder what Fuuton: Chou oodama Rasenshuriken would do to shinsuusenjuu....


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Given how he was struggling just to _grab_ Kurama for suppression,



Hashirama just reached down and grabbed the Kyuubi with the Mokuton Buddha. Where was the struggle, exactly?



> I don't think he could have caught a Bijudama at that point.



Which, of course, is based on nothing except what you want to believe.



> Madara was in a Complete Susano'o then, as an Edo Tensei with unlimited chakra and stamina.



Madara was in his incomplete Susano'o, and it doesn't even appear visibly damaged.



> Not that it matters, Tenpenchii is a far greater attack than Shinsusenju by leaps and bounds,



Tenpenchi failed to breach an incomplete "normal" Susano'o.

Shinsuusenju countered dozens of Perfect Susano'o-enhanced Bijuudama and still managed to destroy Perfect Susano'o itself.

So you're mistaken.



> Hashirama has no way of damaging either.



Hashirama has Shinsuusenju, which is > Perfect Susano'o which is > Incomplete Susano'o which is > Tenpenchi.



> And Naruto still has the feat of tanking a direct blast from the Jyubi without ANY damage aside from his chakra tails (which regenerate) being damaged.



Perfect Susano'o took a Bijuudama from the Kyuubi with no damage ("I told you so," by the way) and Shinsuusenju ripped through it despite having to collide against a bladed Bijuudama spam first.

Also, "He didn't take any damage except for the damage he took" is not a very wisely-articulated argument...


----------



## trance (Jun 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The entire arms ARE the jutsu, without them its just a construct. Its primary offensive power was destroyed.



Yet, he still managed to last long enough to reach Kurama, regardless if the arms were destroyed or not.




> Given how he was struggling just to _grab_ Kurama for suppression, I don't think he could have caught a Bijudama at that point.



Like I said, Madara suffered from CIS at that time...so, it's irrelevant. You also can't prove he couldn't have either. You can only assume.



> Madara was in a Complete Susano'o then, as an Edo Tensei with unlimited chakra and stamina. Not that it matters, Tenpenchii is a far greater attack than Shinsusenju by leaps and bounds, Hashirama has no way of damaging either.



Did you miss what I said? Hashirama destroyed the Perfect Susanoo...and this weaker version tanked a massive attack...

Link removed


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2013)

Lazers said:


> Did you miss what I said?



He does that a lot.

If you prove him wrong, he'll just act like you never said anything and keep repeating himself like a broken record without even addressing it.

Don't worry; everybody else observing this spectacle caught it.

EDIT: You'll notice that he hasn't responded to any of my more recent posts directed at him, at all. Case in point.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Lazers said:


> Yet, he still managed to last long enough to reach Kurama, regardless if the arms were destroyed or not.


Still, the main part of its arsenal was gone, destroyed in the clash.





> Like I said, Madara suffered from CIS at that time...so, it's irrelevant. You also can't prove he couldn't have either. You can only assume.


Though Kurama has other means besides Bijudama to resist. Remember his shockwaves? Why wouldn't Naruto do the same?




> Did you miss what I said? Hashirama destroyed the Perfect Susanoo...and this weaker version tanked a massive attack...
> 
> fishy mode


That just means Edo Madara is stronger than the one Hashirama fought. The Tenpenchii is far stronger than Shinsusenju.


----------



## Sans (Jun 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama had to take hits on the body. The reason why the barrage stopped: IT HAD BEEN DESTROYED IN THE CLASH! Not because Hashirama stopped it, it was stopped in the clash of the Renkozu Bijudama and Top Transformed Buddha barrage.
> 
> We even see where the barrage hits: Right on Kurama's back and sides, not his head where Madara was.
> 
> The only reason why the attack stopped is because the Shinsusenju was badly damaged afterwards to the point where the remnants of the thousand hands broke off.



It was so destroyed that Hashirama could only pick up the Kyuubi like a puppy.


----------



## Octavian (Jun 13, 2013)

honestly, there's no shame in the main characters losing to hashirama. kishi has gone out of his way a multitude of times to establish that Hashirama is the strongest (aside from RS and juubi of course)


----------



## Sans (Jun 13, 2013)

Also in regards to the idea that Perfect Susano'o Blades mixed with Bijuudama's didn't amplify the attack, I find myself disagreeing.

The Kyuubi fired a Bijuudama, Hashirama's Mokuton caught it and threw it back.

Perfect Susano'o's attack was similarly stopped cold by Mokuton.

However upon combining the two, Hashirama retreated and opted for Sennin Modou. When Sennin Modou was achieved, he countered the combination attack.

This series of events suggest that both sides escalated in that exchange, and Hashirama proved superior.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> It was so destroyed that Hashirama could only pick up the Kyuubi like a puppy.


Kurama didn't even attempt anything to stop that. No Bijudama to the face, no roars, NOTHING that he usually shows when he's in control of his own mind. And Hashirama was DESPERATE TO SUPPRESS HIM. His entire POINT was suppressing him since he was too strong.



Octavian said:


> honestly, there's no shame in the main characters losing to hashirama. kishi has gone out of his way a multitude of times to establish that Hashirama is the strongest (aside from RS and juubi of course)


Other than the fact that Hashirama is long dead and Naruto was holding his own against the Jyubi, Edo Madara (whose stronger than EMS Madara) and Obito.

There is absolutely no sense that someone who could do that, on top of _kicking five Biju's ass all at once without any suppression techniques_ shouldn't be on Hashirama's level.



Komnenos said:


> Also in regards to the idea that Perfect Susano'o Blades mixed with Bijuudama's didn't amplify the attack, I find myself disagreeing.
> 
> The Kyuubi fired a Bijuudama, Hashirama's Mokuton caught it and threw it back.
> 
> ...


All that Hashirama stopped before with Mokuton with the Bijudama was an unexploded standard Bijudama any Biju could shoot. When it exploded, Hashirama had to resort to a purely defensive technique since his Mokujin and Mokuryu would be destroyed.

The sword being put in the Bijudama was purely for the reason that Hashirama couldn't catch it.


----------



## trance (Jun 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Still, the main part of its arsenal was gone, destroyed in the clash.



The arms were destroyed *at same time* as the Susanoo armor was destroyed.
Why do you keep bringing this up? 



> Though Kurama has other means besides Bijudama to resist. Remember his shockwaves? Why wouldn't Naruto do the same?



Again, assuming. 

His shockwaves have not shown to be stronger than Hashirama's Mokuton and that's Kurama with all of it's chakra.



> That just means Edo Madara is stronger than the one Hashirama fought. The Tenpenchii is far stronger than Shinsusenju.



Well, you said it, now prove it. Edo Madara overall is stronger than living Madara but there is no proof his Susanoo had grown stronger. Kabuto gave him the Rinnegan and the Mokuton as well as unlimited stamina via Edo Tensei. However, it's not been said or implied that Edo Madara's Susanoo is stronger than living Madara's.

And even if it was, do you really think just the complete version is better than the perfect version?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Lazers said:


> Again, assuming.
> 
> His shockwaves have not shown to be stronger than Hashirama's Mokuton and that's Kurama with all of it's chakra.


Kurama can send Five Biju flying back for several kilometers with a single roar. Hashirama's Mokuton would have been shredded.




> Well, you said it, now prove it. Edo Madara overall is stronger than living Madara but there is no proof his Susanoo had grown stronger. Kabuto gave him the Rinnegan and the Mokuton as well as unlimited stamina via Edo Tensei. However, it's not been said or implied that Edo Madara's Susanoo is stronger than living Madara's.
> 
> And even if it was, do you really think just the complete version is better than the perfect version?


Everything shown by Edo Madara was on another level than what he could do in life. He was said explicitly beyond his Prime in the manga. The Rinnegan, Mokuton, Unlimited Stamina, everything makes his original powers stronger. 

And why do you think Shinsusenju is stronger _than an attack from the fucking Jyubi?!_


----------



## Octavian (Jun 13, 2013)

If i recall correctly, EMS madara was shown slicing off 5 mountains with a PS slash in his fight versus Hashirama. Edo Madara sliced off less from what i can recall 

"everything shown by edo madara was on another level from what he could do in life" they said


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Octavian said:


> If i recall correctly, EMS madara was shown slicing off 5 mountains with a PS slash in his fight versus Hashirama. Edo Madara sliced off less from what i can recall
> 
> "everything shown by edo madara was on another level from what he could do in life" they said


EMS Madara sliced through those five mountains _while his Susano'o was clad in the second strongest being in raw power next to the Jyubi itself._


----------



## Sans (Jun 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama didn't even attempt anything to stop that. No Bijudama to the face, no roars, NOTHING that he usually shows when he's in control of his own mind. And Hashirama was DESPERATE TO SUPPRESS HIM. His entire POINT was suppressing him since he was too strong.



Kurama just got punched ten thousand times by the biggest Mokuton construct we've ever seen. Him not doing anything isn't really meant to be seen as a lucky break for Hashirama, the first Hokage had shattered him. Kishimoto literally drew the Kyuubi getting picked up like a pet. 

Too strong to act freely does not mean he's stronger than Hashirama. It is not a comparison of strength. Taking it as one would be like viewing American issues over North Korea's nuclear program, as fear of their surpassing the USA in power.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> All that Hashirama stopped before with Mokuton with the Bijudama was an unexploded standard Bijudama any Biju could shoot. When it exploded, Hashirama had to resort to a purely defensive technique since his Mokujin and Mokuryu would be destroyed.
> 
> The sword being put in the Bijudama was purely for the reason that Hashirama couldn't catch it.



The distinction between an unexploded Bijuudama and an explosion has always seemed awfully dubious to me. Obviously the area of effect has increased, but I cannot recall any instance in the manga saying that its destructive power (outside of hitting more) has increased. Regardless, Hashirama appears to be capable of dealing with Bijuudama explosions. 1 

Again, I find this assumption of yours quite perplexing. Hashirama dealt with either attack individually quite competently. Then Madara escalates with his Perfect Susano'o Kyuubi construct, which causes Hashirama to retreat. At that point, Hashirama is only capable of deflecting Madara's assault. 2 Now outclassed, Hashirama opts for Sennin Modou. Once Sennin Modou is attained, Hashirama strips Madara of his Perfect Susano'o, while his Shinsuusenju remained intact enough to make a mockery of the Kyuubi. 

Unless there is a specific citation that Perfect Susano'o basically changed the properties of the attacks, and did not greatly enhance them, I will have to disagree. There is a clear escalation of power employed by both sides, in my view.

On an unrelated note, I am unconvinced that Naruto enjoys a massive advantage in speed over Hashirama. Perfect Susano'o attack is fast enough to strike multiple mountains in the same panel, yet Hashirama reacted adequately. 3 Afterwards, he appears to traverse an incredible distance in a short period of time. 4 In fact, if Hashirama is in Sennin Modou, I would be expect him to enjoy the speed advantage. Naruto's physical attributes went from relatively similar to Deva in base, to annihilating him in taijutsu. Hashirama's feats will likely scale up similarly.


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## trance (Jun 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama can send Five Biju flying back for several kilometers with a single roar. Hashirama's Mokuton would have been shredded.



That's AoE damage. AoE damage =/= legitimate firepower. A few pages later, the Biju are fine.



> Everything shown by Edo Madara was on another level than what he could do in life. He was said explicitly beyond his Prime in the manga. The Rinnegan, Mokuton, Unlimited Stamina, everything makes his original powers stronger.



Show a scan where it said or implied his Susanoo got stronger and I'll concede that point.



> And why do you think Shinsusenju is stronger _than an attack from the fucking Jyubi?!_



Because the Tenpenchii looks to be just a massive AoE. Everyone survived. If the Juubi unleashed a bijudama that covered the same area, everyone would've died.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Kurama just got punched ten thousand times by the biggest Mokuton construct we've ever seen. Him not doing anything isn't really meant to be seen as a lucky break for Hashirama, the first Hokage had shattered him. Kishimoto literally drew the Kyuubi getting picked up like a pet.


And Kishimoto also drew Kurama not being injured by the barrage DESPITE the Susano'o Armor being stripped from him. And even then, Kurama wasn't damaged.

With Naruto helping, Kurama'd have gotten some distance and used a Super Bijudama as a counter while Rasenshurikens are launched.


> Too strong to act freely does not mean he's stronger than Hashirama. It is not a comparison of strength. Taking it as one would be like viewing American issues over North Korea's nuclear program, as fear of their surpassing the USA in power.


Given how injured Hashirama is in the panel, it implies he IS stronger than Hashirama. 

The _entire fucking fight, Hashirama was desperate to suppress Kurama_ cause in the long run, Kurama would have destroyed him. Hashirama's own words say he is too strong. The manga's shown countless times that Kurama is the strongest thing in the universe bar the Jyubi and Rikudo Sennin.


> The distinction between an unexploded Bijuudama and an explosion has always seemed awfully dubious to me. Obviously the area of effect has increased, but I cannot recall any instance in the manga saying that its destructive power (outside of hitting more) has increased. Regardless, Hashirama appears to be capable of dealing with Bijuudama explosions. 1


An unexploded Bijudama is far less dangerous than one that has exploded. It can be avoided. The explosion though can atomize entire mountains, create valleys, and cause destruction for thousands of kilometers. 

And all that Hashirama has is a defense against the _standard_ Bijudama. What about the beam version? What about the wave version? What about the super powerful one? Naruto has access to ALL THREE. Madara didn't since he didn't know what Kurama could do due to his arrogance and seeing Kurama as a mindless beast.


> Again, I find this assumption of yours quite perplexing. Hashirama dealt with either attack individually quite competently. Then Madara escalates with his Perfect Susano'o Kyuubi construct, which causes Hashirama to retreat. At that point, Hashirama is only capable of deflecting Madara's assault. 2 Now outclassed, Hashirama opts for Sennin Modou. Once Sennin Modou is attained, Hashirama strips Madara of his Perfect Susano'o, while his Shinsuusenju remained intact enough to make a mockery of the Kyuubi.


Hashirama and Madara himself said that Susano'o's Sword in the Bijudama was just used to prevent another redirection. Madara even said 'TRY CATCHING THAT ONE HASHIRAMA!' So how is that an assumption? And if its stronger-why didn't it wipe out that island? Why did it again, do what a normal Bijudama can do-vaporize a mountain?


> Unless there is a specific citation that Perfect Susano'o basically changed the properties of the attacks, and did not greatly enhance them, I will have to disagree. There is a clear escalation of power employed by both sides, in my view.


Except even the manga said that the sword was just to stop another redirection.


> On an unrelated note, I am unconvinced that Naruto enjoys a massive advantage in speed over Hashirama. Perfect Susano'o attack is fast enough to strike multiple mountains in the same panel, yet Hashirama reacted adequately. 3 Afterwards, he appears to traverse an incredible distance in a short period of time. 4 In fact, if Hashirama is in Sennin Modou, I would be expect him to enjoy the speed advantage. Naruto's physical attributes went from relatively similar to Deva in base, to annihilating him in taijutsu. Hashirama's feats will likely scale up similarly.


...so wait, you're now saying Hashirama is faster than Naruto? Naruto has a massive advantage in speed, he's the fastest shinobi in the world. Hashirama's speed was never hyped up AT ALL, not even by Madara. Yet everyone, EVERYONE reacts in shock and surprise at Naruto's speed. Naruto could send five Bijudama flying into the next zip code by just _moving past them_. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING Hashirama has done equals that.



Lazers said:


> That's AoE damage. AoE damage =/= legitimate firepower. A few pages later, the Biju are fine.


Since when is 'AOE' less powerful than any other attack, Lazers'? How is an attack that can send creatures several kilometers flying back despite their extreme weight? 




> Show a scan where it said or implied his Susanoo got stronger and I'll concede that point.


The very fact Edo Madara's Susano'o could survive the Jyubi's Tenpenchii means it did get stronger.




> Because the Tenpenchii looks to be just a massive AoE. Everyone survived. If the Juubi unleashed a bijudama that covered the same area, everyone would've died.


Everyone survived *BECAUSE OF NARUTO.* Even Madara was surprised at that!


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## trance (Jun 13, 2013)

So, you're saying Kurama's roar has the same level of power as its bijudama? 

I asked for a scan and yet you didn't show one, which means you can't prove it. The burden of proof is on you since you first made the claim.

Madara is a cocky, arrogant bastard. Of course he's gonna underestimate them.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Lazers said:


> So, you're saying Kurama's roar has the same level of power as its bijudama?


No, I'm not. But I am saying it can act as a defensive shield, Lazers that can blow away the hand and any Mokuton construct.


> I asked for a scan and yet you didn't show one, which means you can't prove it. The burden of proof is on you since you first made the claim.
> 
> Madara is a cocky, arrogant bastard. Of course he's gonna underestimate them.


Except the very fact that Edo Madara could survive Tenpenchii without a higher level of Susano'o, despite the power of the attack and what created it, shows his living self's Susano'o is stronger.


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## Ersa (Jun 13, 2013)

Hashirama's the worst match-up for Naruto, his whole moveset is catered to fighting Bijuu/PS. I pretty much see it going how EMS Madara + 100% Kyuubi went. Granted BM Naruto > 100% Kyuubi but not by an insane amount and unless the Kurama cloak makes Sasuke suddenly develop PS which is possible I can't see them winning. He suppresses Naruto's avatar and then proceeds to Buddha stomp the two of them.

Will Naruto and Sauce be able to take this soon with new feats? Yes.
Right now? No way in hell.

SM Hashirama wins high difficulty.

Also Mach 143+ SM Hashirama


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## trance (Jun 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, I'm not. But I am saying it can act as a defensive shield, Lazers that can blow away the hand and any Mokuton construct.



There's still no proof that Hashirama's Mokuton would be destroyed. 



> Except the very fact that Edo Madara could survive Tenpenchii without a higher level of Susano'o, despite the power of the attack and what created it, shows his living self's Susano'o is stronger.



Tsunade and Onoki could damage his Susanoo more than Tenpenchii. Care to explain that?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Lazers said:


> There's still no proof that Hashirama's Mokuton would be destroyed.


Why do you act like Hashirama's Mokuton is some sort of super material immune to damage?




> Tsunade and Onoki could damage his Susanoo more than Tenpenchii. Care to explain that?


Concentrated attack for Tsunade, and Onoki vaporizes things with Jinton.


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## trance (Jun 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why do you act like Hashirama's Mokuton is some sort of super material immune to damage?



Because his Mokuton has yet to be destroyed by anything except bijudamas and Susanoo sword slashes, both of which are above a simple roar. 

It's also one of the most overpowered jutsus in the series. 



> Concentrated attack for Tsunade, and Onoki vaporizes things with Jinton.



Onoki is understandable but he tanks a massive AoE and even survives in lava yet loses to a punch? Sounds extremely inconsistent.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Lazers said:


> Because his Mokuton has yet to be destroyed by anything except bijudamas and Susanoo sword slashes, both of which are above a simple roar.
> 
> It's also one of the most overpowered jutsus in the series.


Said roar can blow apart multiple city blocks up to entire cities and send creatures weighing thousands of tons kilometers away. Said roar is filled with chakra that can act like a shield.

And not all Mokuton is created equal, Lazers.


> Onoki is understandable but he tanks a massive AoE and even survives in lava yet loses to a punch? Sounds extremely inconsistent.


Consistency? From Kishimoto? That's asking too much.


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## blk (Jun 13, 2013)

I assume manga knowledge for Hashirama, since it is not specified.

So, the team 7 duo has minimal chances of win this battle. All of their attacks can be immediatly tanked by Mokuton or redirected (for example, if Naruto fires a Bijuudama Hashirama can make Mokuton under his feet and disrupt his aim), while the same can't be said for the duo.
Infact, i'm not exactly sure how Sasuke is supposed to not get killed, by masses of Mokuton coming out from everywhere, in the first seconds of the battle.
Naruto is a bit more difficult to restrain/kill, but it's really just a matter of time before he'll get overwhelmed (also because he hasn't enough chakra for fight as much as Hashi can).

So, Hashirama should win with high difficulty. 


And lol at SSM12 who is desperately trying to make look Kurama > Hashirama, so that Naruto will also be stronger.
The fantasy that Kurama tanked a great part of the Buddha's hits, has durability comparable to PS and was a threat to Hashirama (despite that he can subdue the beast instantly) is, and probably will remain, unfounded.
Hashirama stomps Kurama, or Naruto alone, with mid difficulty _at most_ (EMS Madara can as well, but with a bit more difficulty).


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## trance (Jun 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Said roar can blow apart multiple city blocks up to entire cities and send creatures weighing thousands of tons kilometers away. Said roar is filled with chakra that can act like a shield.



At best, his roar is city level while a bijudama is at minimum small island level.



> ]Consistency? From Kishimoto? That's asking too much.



Ugh...I know but I didn't think he was this bad. It's reminds me of DBZ...


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 13, 2013)

You people just aren't grasping how crazy Naruto & Sasuke's Kurama-Susanoo would be. So let me make a post specifically dealing with its potential features:

1. Unlike Madara's, it will actually have a shield which will boost its defense x2:
- 3

It will be a joke if it has Yata Mirror.

2. Will also be capable of coating itself entirely in Amaterasu to prevent itself from also being "grappled"
- 3

3. Naruto's control of Lord Kurama's chakra gives them the ability to not just wield TWO swords...but NINE MORE thanks to Kurama's tails being so controllable and battle-efficient:
- 3

Those swords and arrow&Bow thanks to Kurama's limbs being limitless flexibly will be quite the beast.

4: 3 Pairs of Eyes...Kurama, Sasuke & Naruto: With a SageMode clone + Sasuke's precog + plus Lord Kurama being conscious aswell...what the honest fuck could surprise them. They will be no "trees coming from below" that will catch them off-guard.

5. Can literally have a ball of Enton hovering above its head just spamming shit:
- 3
- 3

Look...we got a beast, wielding almost 10 BijuuLevel Amaterasu Swords, plus a shield/Crossbow that can shoot arrows potentially the size of Manda (since Sauce will get a chakra boost) that can be amplified by FRSz the size of Gamakachi, plus SageMode & EMS sensory, plus the ability to make CQC useless thanks to the ability to coat itself in the flames, plus Super BijuuDamas with the swords in the middle being shot out to prevent it from being caught & deflected...
(Go ahead, say Hashirama can thank Super BijuuDamas with a spinning Amaterasu stakes in it. I fucking DARE YOU.)

What the fuck people. No one can stand before this yet-to be seen monstrosity.


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## ShadowReaper (Jun 13, 2013)

Hashirama still defeats them, although it won't be a walk in the park.


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## blk (Jun 13, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> You people just aren't grasping how crazy Naruto & Sasuke's Kurama-Susanoo would be. So let me make a post specifically dealing with its potential features:
> 
> 1. Unlike Madara's, it will actually have a shield which will boost its defense x2:
> - 3
> ...



Where did you get that x2? There is no indication that the shield is any more durable than the armor of Susano'o.



> 2. Will also be capable of coating itself entirely in Amaterasu to prevent itself from also being "grappled"
> - 3



How exactly will the black flames impede the wood from touching (and overwhelm) them? It's not that it will vaporize at contact.



> 3. Naruto's control of Lord Kurama's chakra gives them the ability to not just wield TWO swords...but NINE MORE thanks to Kurama's tails being so controllable and battle-efficient:
> - 3



It's unlikely that those tails can be controlled as efficiently as normal arms.



> 4: 3 Pairs of Eyes...Kurama, Sasuke & Naruto: With a SageMode clone + Sasuke's precog + plus Lord Kurama being conscious aswell...what the honest fuck could surprise them. They will be no "trees coming from below" that will catch them off-guard.



If Sasuke stares below, then maybe they can predict those trees. It's doubtful if SM Naruto can perceive the wood.

Anyway, it's not a matter of catching off-guard, but more that they'll be simply overwhelmed.
The only fact that they have to pay so much attention and that will be immediatly at the defensive if Hashirama makes trees on their position, will limit immensely their offensive possibilities.



> 5. Can literally have a ball of Enton hovering above its head just spamming shit:
> - 3
> - 3



Which is pretty much of no use.



> Look...we got a beast, wielding almost 10 BijuuLevel Amaterasu Swords, plus a shield/Crossbow that can shoot arrows potentially the size of Manda (since Sauce will get a chakra boost) that can be amplified by FRSz the size of Gamakachi, plus SageMode & EMS sensory, plus the ability to make CQC useless thanks to the ability to coat itself in the flames, plus Super BijuuDamas with the swords in the middle being shot out to prevent it from being caught & deflected...
> (Go ahead, say Hashirama can thank Super BijuuDamas with a spinning Amaterasu stakes in it. I fucking DARE YOU.)



He doesn't need to tank such attack, because the moment that they will start to prepare it, the former will stop the preparation/disrupt their aim with masses of Mokuton from below their feet.



> What the fuck people. No one can stand before this *yet-to be seen monstrosity*.



You said it, it is yet to be seen.... in other words just a speculation.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama can send Five Biju flying back for several kilometers with a single roar. Hashirama's Mokuton would have been shredded.
> 
> Everything shown by Edo Madara was on another level than what he could do in life. He was said explicitly beyond his Prime in the manga. The Rinnegan, Mokuton, Unlimited Stamina, everything makes his original powers stronger.



Edo tensei doesn't provide the zombies with unlimited chakra. We saw the Nidaime Mizukage getting worn out.in his fight. Nobody else has really expended much chakra, and considering that Madara was already most likely a chakra beast, on top of having absorbed a lot of jutsu and having Hashirama cells now, it's probably just that Madara just hasn't used enough jutsu to really wear himself out.



> And why do you think Shinsusenju is stronger _than an attack from the fucking Jyubi?!_



Which attack are you referring to?


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 13, 2013)

Hashirama would struggle to defeat them alone let alone together, basically this is EMS Madara+ Kuyuubi on steroids because Naruto + Kyuubi is much stronger than Kyuubi on his own, Hashirama really can't harm these two and he hasn't shown anything that could defend against Naruto's speed ,frog song, this just two much.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 13, 2013)

Sasuke's current feats put him at nowhere near the level Madara was against Hashirama. He might unlock perfect Susano'o eventually, but right now nothing suggests that he already has access to it (we know for a fact he set out immediately after his eye transplant finished, so he can't have trained) and I don't think Sasuke would just randomly pull it out any time soon either. Naruto with the Kyūbi being stronger than the Kyūbi which fought Hashirama is a bit more acceptable, but still dubious because this is only half the Kyūbi (the other half was sealed in Minato when he used shiki fūjin), and because Madara's Susano'o managed to make the Kyūbi a lot stronger, yet the two still lost. 

In regards to defense, Hashirama has a lot of options here. He's literally shown the most impressive defensive abilities in the manga, and nearly all of his fight with Madara (before he decided to get serious) consisted of him countering and blocking his attacks. Kuchiyose: gojū rashōmon managed to redirect a full bijū-dama with a Susano'o sword, and mokuton: hōbi no jutsu took on a full power perfect Susano'o slash wielded by the Kyūbi. When you consider all these, plus his normal wood, and the fact that he can regenerate on the same level as Tsunade, saying he can't defend is a bit silly.

In regards to speed, a lot of Naruto's speed (if we're talking about him in the cloaked form which he can only sustain for a short amount of time), his speed is mostly in bursts. They're just very good shunshins powered up to a high level. Hashirama's jutsu are so big that just moving a hundred metres or something isn't going to be good enough; he has jutsu as big as bijū and even bigger. 

And lastly, with genjutsu... it requires both Fukasaku and Shima to be summoned (as well as for Naruto to be able to somehow find the time to summon them), and not get killed immediately. Summoning them takes time, and them preparing the song takes even more time. That's not time the duo would be able to have against someone like Hashirama.


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 13, 2013)

blk said:


> Where did you get that x2? There is no indication that the shield is any more durable than the armor of Susano'o.



So? Knights wore armors of steel and held shields made of steel too. Its all about not taking DIRECT HITS as much as possible.



> How exactly will the black flames impede the wood from touching (and overwhelm) them? It's not that it will vaporize at contact.



When Amaterasu has been amplified x3 thanks to Sasuke gaining chakra from Naruto, you better believe they're gonna vaporize. (And I'm being modest about Sasuke only getting 3x his usual chakra levels thanks to Naruto. A limit was never established for how much Naruto can give.)

Plus Sasuke has shown he can make the flames take a strong, solid form too. So thats a flame shield that can be manipulated as freely as Gaara uses his sand. Ha.



> It's unlikely that those tails can be controlled as efficiently as normal arms.



I just posted a panel of him using them '_as efficiently as normal arms_.' What the honest fuck.

As as I said...10 BijuuSized Amaterasu Swords. 



> If Sasuke stares below, then maybe they can predict those trees. It's doubtful if SM Naruto can perceive the wood.



The trees are imbued with chakra. Oh, he can sense them alright.

Naruto can make almost vivid pictures of battlefields from countries away:
-  12

If he can even see Obito's hideout in one of those pics...that means he can sense chakra-less object aswell. (Threw this in here because I could just sense you'd wanna make a drawn out argument about this for some reason.)



> Anyway, it's not a matter of catching off-guard, but more that they'll be simply overwhelmed.
> The only fact that they have to pay so much attention and that will be immediatly at the defensive if Hashirama makes trees on their position, will limit immensely their offensive possibilities


.

Naruto & Sasuke...overwhelmed? Really? Madara sprouted Flower Tree World and all the Kages LITERALLY had to do was LEAP.

The only person that's gonna be overwhelmed here is Hashirama. Naruto & Sasuke have too many combination offensive jutsus. Kurama will be vomiting attacks. Get the cleaners on aisle 9. Its gonna be a Amaterasu, FRS, mess.



> Which is pretty much of no use.



Tell me that again when the battlefield is as black as the night above them and Kirin is being prepped.




> He doesn't need to tank such attack, because the moment that they will start to prepare it, the former will stop the preparation/disrupt their aim with masses of Mokuton from below their feet.



I wonder why Hashi didn't do that when Madara sent 12+ BijuuDama Swords at his ass.



> You said it, it is yet to be seen.... in other words just a speculation.



Don't even fucking go there with me.


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## Luftwaffles (Jun 13, 2013)

Anyways, SM Hashirama solos. Buddha isn't needed, he can just slap them around with those giant hands and use Pollen World and he also has Tsunade level healing as stated by Madara. Eventually, Naruto will be Hashirama's superior as well as the Younger Brother...as will Sasuke to Madara and the Older Brother...but until now...they aren't in their level.


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## Kaiser (Jun 13, 2013)

Naruto alone could be a match for Hashirama eventhough he would probably lose, but with Sasuke by his side, they gain the upper hand


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Anyways, SM Hashirama solos. Buddha isn't needed, he can just slap them around with those giant hands and use Pollen World and he also has Tsunade level healing as stated by Madara. Eventually, Naruto will be Hashirama's superior as well as the Younger Brother...as will Sasuke to Madara and the Older Brother...but until now...they aren't in their level.


The Pollen World was avoided by all five Kages. SM Hashirama still has far inferior speed to BM Naruto. Those Giant Hands are in slow motion compared to Naruto.

What's stopping Naruto from nuking the Pollen World, or Sasuke from igniting it all with Amaterasu, something that the Kages lack?

We're talking about one character who could defeat five Biju without ANY suppression abilities, yet...SM Hashirama 'solos' because he's Hashirama?



Atlantic said:


> Edo tensei doesn't provide the zombies with unlimited chakra. We saw the Nidaime Mizukage getting worn out.in his fight. Nobody else has really expended much chakra, and considering that Madara was already most likely a chakra beast, on top of having absorbed a lot of jutsu and having Hashirama cells now, it's probably just that Madara just hasn't used enough jutsu to really wear himself out.


Edo Tensei do have Unlimited Chakra. Nidame Mizukage didn't get 'worn out', his body got _weakened_ via the creation of Joki Boi. There is a difference Atlantic Storm.




> Which attack are you referring to?


Tenpenchii. Ten-Tails Jyubidama.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2013)

Hold up now....Naruto's Chakra transfer actually makes Sasuke relevant. The Sauce's firestorm abilities are an incredible counter to the overwhelming Mokuton pressure Team 7 will face. Based on _the_ _level_ in which Naruto's cloak apmlifies Ninjutsu, I wish Hashirama good luck in trying to actually "defend" when Sasuke ignites any Mokuton construct and chases Hashirama down with Kagutsuchi.

In dealing with Naruto, Shodai must keep distance. In Bijuu Mode, he's faster & stronger than the Raikage, and can create giant Chakra Shuriken that shred you to pieces at whim.....so trying to fight up close without some sort of nigh-instant (like Susano'o) isn't going to end well. Luckily, Shodai's a long-range guy. Unfortunately though, since all of his Mokuton will be thwarted by V1 Amaterasu techniques, he's in a pickle. He'll need sage mode.

Now, Shinsuusenju can be stopped in the same way _the Juubi_ was...only Sasuke's Enton will be further amplified by the cloak. The statue is wood, so it seems vulnerable to this type of technique. 

The match is really decided by how well Sasuke can keep Hashirama from gaining battlefield control. If they can create an opening to hit him with a quick but fatal attack, they can take this. Something like a "Hiraishin-like" flicker or an Enton arrow from a blindspot. It won't be easy by any means, especially since he's a Sage, but the possibility exists of them creating an opening through team work.

Hashirama has to basically beat them to death or outlast. He has no instant knock outs other than the pollen Jutsu, which Sasuke can of course burn down. If he does manage to kill one of them, killing the other would be much less difficult. If Team 7 messes up, Hashirama _will_ capitalize.

I should note that should Shinsuusenju actually go down to that _Shakuton Kourin Shippuu Shikkoku No Ya Zero Shiki_ deal, then Hashirama really looses any chance at countering Naruto;s absolutely gigantic Bijuudama.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 13, 2013)

This really depends on how much chakra sharing would effect Sasuke's output


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> The second Naruto attempts to retaliate via _Bijudama_, Hashirama ups the level to SM, and pulls an exodia with Shinshengigazordo, GG




It's a good thing Naruto & Sasuke have a combination attack geared to burn stuff like that down 

Seriously, that cloak was going to allow Kakashi to solo the Juubi. Sasuke turns on his Dojutsu and changes the landscape to hell.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Hashirama steam rolls Naruto & EMS Sasuke. Even assuming Naruto chakra sharing with Sasuke, then what? Hashi still beat a 100% Kurama + PS attacking in unison
> 
> Naruto would need BM simple to survive base Hashirama's _Mokuton_, The second Naruto attempts to retaliate via _Bijudama_, Hashirama ups the level to SM, and pulls an exodia with Shinshengigazordo, GG
> 
> He wins mid-dif at worst


Amaterasu and Enton, amped up by Naruto is a handy counter to Mokuton Joakim3. Not to mention the fact that Naruto is far, far, FAR faster than Hashirama in Biju Mode means Hashirama's attacks are moving in slow motion. And Super Bijudama (which is 27 kilometers long and is 1.32 Teratons) will wipe out the Shinsusenju. Or Naruto and Sasuke can just counter with Kōrin Shippū Shikkokuya Zeroshiki which turns it into a giant flaming thing that Hashirama can't counter.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Pollen World was avoided by all five Kages. SM Hashirama still has far inferior speed to BM Naruto. Those Giant Hands are in slow motion compared to Naruto.



Madara had no trouble catching Naruto with Mokuton.



> What's stopping Naruto from nuking the Pollen World, or Sasuke from igniting it all with Amaterasu, something that the Kages lack?



If they do either of these things, Hashirama will just throw it back in their face with Mokuton.



> We're talking about one character who could defeat five Biju without ANY suppression abilities,



Stop.

Naruto never defeated them.

They were fighting evenly and Naruto was on a time limit while they weren't.

That's a losing battle by any stretch of the imagination.



> yet...SM Hashirama 'solos' because he's Hashirama?



No, he soloes because he's stronger than both of them combined.



> Tenpenchii. Ten-Tails Jyubidama.



Shinsuusenju is stronger than Tenpenchi because it breached Perfect Susano'o while Tenpenchi couldn't even breach imperfect regular Susano'o.

I'm not even sure how to quantify the Juubidama.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not to mention the fact that Naruto is far, far, FAR faster than Hashirama in Biju Mode means Hashirama's attacks are moving in slow motion.



Again, Madara caught Naruto with Mokuton.

Stop ignoring me and acknowledge that I have proven you wrong.



> And Super Bijudama (which is 27 kilometers long and is 1.32 Teratons) will wipe out the Shinsusenju.



The Kyuubi failed to do that with many, many Bijuudama amplified by Perfect Susano'o.



> Or Naruto and Sasuke can just counter with Kōrin Shippū Shikkokuya Zeroshiki which turns it into a giant flaming thing that Hashirama can't counter.



Hashirama can counter it easily by blocking with Mokuton. The area of effect isn't even as extensive as Bijuudama's.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, I'm not. But I am saying it can act as a defensive shield, Lazers that can blow away the hand and any Mokuton construct.



The Kyuubi's roars won't do shit to Mokuton if Bijuudama can't.



> Except the very fact that Edo Madara could survive Tenpenchii without a higher level of Susano'o, despite the power of the attack and what created it, shows his living self's Susano'o is stronger.





That's completely backwards reasoning.

No, what it proves is that Shinsuusenju is stronger than Tenpenchi.

This is an example of your denial getting way out of hand.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama can send Five Biju flying back for several kilometers with a single roar. Hashirama's Mokuton would have been shredded.



The Bijuu were not "shredded"; the Kyuubi's roars do not possess a "shredding" element.

And Bijuudama has a much higher yield, yet it couldn't budge Hashi's Mokuton.



> Everything shown by Edo Madara was on another level than what he could do in life. He was said explicitly beyond his Prime in the manga. The Rinnegan, Mokuton, Unlimited Stamina, everything makes his original powers stronger.



There is nothing that says Edo Madara's imperfect regular Susano'o is more durable than his living self's Perfect Susano'o.

That goes against the basic reality that Perfect Susano'o is a vastly more powerful version of the same Jutsu.



> And why do you think Shinsusenju is stronger _than an attack from the fucking Jyubi?!_



Because, based on feats, it is.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That just means Edo Madara is stronger than the one Hashirama fought.



No, it doesn't.

You're interpreting the evidence backwards to suit your own interests.

There is zero indication that Edo Madara's Susano'o is ANY stronger than living Madara's; the sole basis for your claim seems to be the Tenpenchi feat itself, which is pure bollocks because the attack failed to kill a bunch of V1-coated fodder as well.

Yet you are taking it as far as to say that Edo Madara's basic Susano'o is more powerful than the perfected version that completely dwarfs it and survived Bijuudama unscathed.

We've seen that basic Susano'o take damage from Tsunade, the Raikage, and Oonoki. We know for a fact that it is nowhere near as durable as Perfect Susano'o, whether Madara's using it alive or undead.



> The Tenpenchii is far stronger than Shinsusenju.



Tenpenchi is far weaker than Shinsuusenju. Any rational person who has read the manga knows this, based on the fact that a blatantly inferior Jutsu withstood Tenpenchi.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama didn't even attempt anything to stop that. No Bijudama to the face, no roars, NOTHING that he usually shows when he's in control of his own mind.



I'll say it again for your convenience: After spamming Bijuudama, did chakra contraints ever cross your mind?



> And Hashirama was DESPERATE TO SUPPRESS HIM. His entire POINT was suppressing him since he was too strong.



Suppressing the Kyuubi is a one-hit-win, so obviously he would want to try. That doesn't mean it was the only option.



> Other than the fact that Hashirama is long dead and Naruto was holding his own against the Jyubi, Edo Madara (whose stronger than EMS Madara) and Obito.
> 
> There is absolutely no sense that someone who could do that, on top of _kicking five Biju's ass all at once without any suppression techniques_ shouldn't be on Hashirama's level.



Naruto was unable to do anything to Obito without help, Madara was kicking his and B's asses, the Juubi had him entirely outclassed, and his fight with the Bijuu was a temporary stalemate at best (removing the chakra rods was his only salvation; if not for that option, he would've lost once his Bijuu form ran out). 



> All that Hashirama stopped before with Mokuton with the Bijudama was an unexploded standard Bijudama any Biju could shoot. When it exploded, Hashirama had to resort to a purely defensive technique since his Mokujin and Mokuryu would be destroyed.



Hashirama stopped it so who cares what he had to do? It didn't cause him any lasting trouble to protect himself.



> The sword being put in the Bijudama was purely for the reason that Hashirama couldn't catch it.



...Duh. Because adding a blade to a rotating, high-velocity ball of exploding death is going to make it nigh-impossible to catch.


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## blk (Jun 13, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> So? Knights wore armors of steel and held shields made of steel too. Its all about not taking DIRECT HITS as much as possible.



So your 2x thing is unfounded.
Even granting that it is possible for Sasuke to clothe Naruto's BM (and that his Susano'o will be as resistent as Madara's one), the Susano'o armor/shield will be destroyed like Perfect Susano'o was; as far as we know the shield won't be anymore durable than the rest.



> When Amaterasu has been amplified x3 thanks to Sasuke gaining chakra from Naruto, you better believe they're gonna vaporize. (And I'm being modest about Sasuke only getting 3x his usual chakra levels thanks to Naruto. A limit was never established for how much Naruto can give.)
> 
> Plus Sasuke has shown he can make the flames take a strong, solid form too. So thats a flame shield that can be manipulated as freely as Gaara uses his sand. Ha.



It's not a given that Amaterasu will be increased in potency with Naruto's chakra.
How do you know that if the flames will be amplified x3, Mokuton will vaporize at contact?

Now Sasuke can make shields of flames with decent durability? Provide evidences for such claim.



> I just posted a panel of him using them '_as efficiently as normal arms_.' What the honest fuck.
> 
> As as I said...10 BijuuSized Amaterasu Swords.



There is a difference between using the tail for temporarly grab an immobile target and using it for fighting with a sword. Kurama has never shown any capability in swordmanship, i find difficult to believe that all of a sudden he will be able to efficiently use several swords with his tails.



> The trees are imbued with chakra. Oh, he can sense them alright.
> 
> Naruto can make almost vivid pictures of battlefields from countries away:
> -  too strong.
> ...



Ok, i can agree with this.



> Naruto & Sasuke...overwhelmed? Really? Madara sprouted Flower Tree World and all the Kages LITERALLY had to do was LEAP.
> 
> The only person that's gonna be overwhelmed here is Hashirama. Naruto & Sasuke have too many combination offensive jutsus. Kurama will be vomiting attacks. Get the cleaners on aisle 9. Its gonna be a Amaterasu, FRS, mess.



Actually, the Gokage needed to go airborne for not being buried alive by that city-level Mokuton tech.

The moment Hashirama starts to spam Mokuton from every angle (which will be at the start of the fight, even before that Sasuke receives Naruto's chakra) the team 7 duo won't be able to stay on the offensive, and will eventually succumb under the wood.
As far as i can see, they have no effective counter to the Mokuton spam.



> Tell me that again when the battlefield is as black as the night above them and Kirin is being prepped.



Hashirama will end the fight before that the black flames will spread so much.




> I wonder why Hashi didn't do that when Madara sent 12+ BijuuDama Swords at his ass.



Who knows? The only thing of relevance is that by feats, he surely can.



> Don't even fucking go there with me.



I just specified that your combination is made-up (by you) and non-canonical.
There is absolutely no reason for why anyone should be compelled to believe it; i'm granting it for the sake of the discussion.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2013)

Let's try an easier question:

SSM12, if you really believe Naruto and Sasuke win so utterly and decisively (or even that Naruto can do so by himself), why did you even make this thread?


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 13, 2013)

blk said:


> So your 2x thing is unfounded.



I was generalizing when I said it would increase their defenses x2. Not a statement to be taken literally.



> Even granting that it is possible for Sasuke to clothe Naruto's BM (and that his Susano'o will be as resistent as Madara's one), the Susano'o armor/shield will be destroyed like Perfect Susano'o was; as far as we know the shield won't be anymore durable than the rest.



Susarama on paper could be more durable than Pefect Susanoo+Full Kurama or atleast be equal to it. Reason being:

1. Naruto can give Sasuke easily more chakra reserves than Madara Uchiha. No way Madara has more chakra than Lord Kurama. Sasuke has the world of chakra to receive. Shit, Sasuke probably already has as much chakra as living Madara.
2. Since Kurama is smaller here, that's an actual benefit since Sasuke can compact and make a denser defense around Lord Kurama instead of having to spread it out around a much larger mass, such as Full Kurama.
3. As I said, its all about avoid direct hits as much as possible. The shield has its use.




> It's not a given that Amaterasu will be increased in potency with Naruto's chakra.
> How do you know that if the flames will be amplified x3, Mokuton will vaporize at contact?



The bigger the flame, the hotter it gets. That's just common sense. You think the fire I set on the stove generates as much heat as a forest fire? I need you to really grasp the scale of things here with Naruto's chakra sharing (such a shame Kakashi didn't get to showcase it.) With a little bit, Kakashi who is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY below Sasuke in chakra levels, gained the ability to warp an entire Bijuu. On paper, Sasuke would literally gain the ability to ignite the entirety of Budha in one go. No need for it to spread.

If you're not down with the Amaterasu preventing Mokuton contact shit. How about a Bijuu-Sized Chidori Nagashi which Sasuke can use to push back Mokuton as he did against Yamato:
- [/URL] (Yeah i know that snakes have a thought constrict), anyway, Katsuyu had no problem surviving. It's not as if CST did that big damage to the villagers if a fodder random ANBU survived without Katsuyu and being near the center of the village.

Katsuyu being affected by Manda's constrict and being ok against Chibaku Tensei in her mini form heavily implies that Katsuyu was not factored by Kishimoto in that fight for nothing more than giving information. Unless we think that Manda's constrict is stronger than CT's absorbing pressure.



> No, that doesn't mean it'd have a better response than Katsuyu unless something suggests that Katsuyu is particularly weak to heat- nothing suggests that as otherwise her division would have evaporate like the snake did against the shroud. That just means Amaterasu isn't hot enough to instantly vaporize crap like you said it could earlier.



Assuming Kishi took into account that KN6's shroud was a factor there since not even Katsuyu made a comment on it and that Sasuke's wind will be vaporized with that corrosive chakra when Oro and Yamato's fist, nor the mokuton or his trees didn't.

And, of course, assuming that KN's corrosive cloack that did nothing to the forest, Oro's and Yamato's fist and Naruto's necklace is as hot as Amaterasu.



> And considering that Katsuyu had to divide to escape Manda instead of just sliding out of his wrap. . .that fish analogy fails.



Got me there. Still doesn't deny the nature of the summon (A freaking slug) who is meant to take blunt force attacks. Diferent to scorching ones.



> That wasn't my point, my point was that had it not been hard it would have just flattened like one of those squishy toys that sticks to the ground like a pancake when you throw it, and that's not what happened.



 (Yeah i know that snakes have a thought constrict), anyway, Katsuyu had no problem surviving. It's not as if CST did that big damage to the villagers if a fodder random ANBU survived without Katsuyu and being near the center of the village.

Katsuyu being affected by Manda's constrict and being ok against Chibaku Tensei in her mini form heavily implies that Katsuyu was not factored by Kishimoto in that fight for nothing more than giving information. Unless we think that Manda's constrict is stronger than CT's absorbing pressure.



> No, that doesn't mean it'd have a better response than Katsuyu unless something suggests that Katsuyu is particularly weak to heat- nothing suggests that as otherwise her division would have evaporate like the snake did against the shroud. That just means Amaterasu isn't hot enough to instantly vaporize crap like you said it could earlier.



Assuming Kishi took into account that KN6's shroud was a factor there since not even Katsuyu made a comment on it and that Sasuke's wind will be vaporized with that corrosive chakra when Oro and Yamato's fist, nor the mokuton or his trees didn't.

And, of course, assuming that KN's corrosive cloack that did nothing to the forest, Oro's and Yamato's fist and Naruto's necklace is as hot as Amaterasu.



> And considering that Katsuyu had to divide to escape Manda instead of just sliding out of his wrap. . .that fish analogy fails.



Got me there. Still doesn't deny the nature of the summon (A freaking slug) who is meant to take blunt force attacks. Diferent to scorching ones.



> That wasn't my point, my point was that had it not been hard it would have just flattened like one of those squishy toys that sticks to the ground like a pancake when you throw it, and that's not what happened.



 (Yeah i know that snakes have a thought constrict), anyway, Katsuyu had no problem surviving. It's not as if CST did that big damage to the villagers if a fodder random ANBU survived without Katsuyu and being near the center of the village.

Katsuyu being affected by Manda's constrict and being ok against Chibaku Tensei in her mini form heavily implies that Katsuyu was not factored by Kishimoto in that fight for nothing more than giving information. Unless we think that Manda's constrict is stronger than CT's absorbing pressure.



> No, that doesn't mean it'd have a better response than Katsuyu unless something suggests that Katsuyu is particularly weak to heat- nothing suggests that as otherwise her division would have evaporate like the snake did against the shroud. That just means Amaterasu isn't hot enough to instantly vaporize crap like you said it could earlier.



Assuming Kishi took into account that KN6's shroud was a factor there since not even Katsuyu made a comment on it and that Sasuke's wind will be vaporized with that corrosive chakra when Oro and Yamato's fist, nor the mokuton or his trees didn't.

And, of course, assuming that KN's corrosive cloack that did nothing to the forest, Oro's and Yamato's fist and Naruto's necklace is as hot as Amaterasu.



> And considering that Katsuyu had to divide to escape Manda instead of just sliding out of his wrap. . .that fish analogy fails.



Got me there. Still doesn't deny the nature of the summon (A freaking slug) who is meant to take blunt force attacks. Diferent to scorching ones.



> That wasn't my point, my point was that had it not been hard it would have just flattened like one of those squishy toys that sticks to the ground like a pancake when you throw it, and that's not what happened.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 13, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Coating Lord Kurama with Susanoo armor is cannon ability an Uchiha can do.



Coating Kurama with Susanoo is a canon ability *Madara *can do. Not all Uchiha.


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 13, 2013)

What the flying fuck ever.


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## Stermor (Jun 14, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It's a good thing Naruto & Sasuke have a combination attack geared to burn stuff like that down
> 
> Seriously, that cloak was going to allow Kakashi to solo the Juubi. Sasuke turns on his Dojutsu and changes the landscape to hell.



ye but kamui makes kakashi much stronger then sasuke.. so just because kakashi can do it.. doesn't mean sasuke can.. 

and while kakashi justsu is uniquely suited to countering stuff like this.. sasuke again is not.. 

anyway naruto might possible compete with a full kyuubi.. but sasuke cannot yet provide the power of madara.. ps swordswing are still couple 1000 times stronger then anything sasuke has shown..


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## Tobiarma Senju (Aug 2, 2013)

Come on man this isnt even comparable hashirama will batter both of them of them he wouldnt even break a sweat


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## Sans (Aug 2, 2013)

Well this is a blast from the past.

Hashirama still solo's.


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## Jak N Blak (Aug 2, 2013)

Excuse me?

TAHAHAHA


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 2, 2013)

Only EoS Sasuke and Naruto could handle him(maybe even Naruto/Sause soloing him). Right now, Hashirama is in a god tier level. Only guys like Rikudou, S6P's sons, current Obito, Madara can defeat him.


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## ueharakk (Aug 2, 2013)

I still don't think either BM naruto or EMS sasuke are at SM Hashirama's level, at least by portrayal.

Madara instantly brought out his PS against Hashirama's mere mokujin + ryu, he's not even using his way more powerful Mokuton buddah.  Then there's the fact that hashirama's been constantly portrayed as the strongest shinobi, at a level above anyone else on the battlefield, and being good guy's benchmark that juubito was compared to.

Feat-wise it's a somewhat different story at least when talking about BM Naruto.  His defenses are superb, being able to block the juubi's laser with just 6 of his 9 tails.  That's the same laser that effortlessly overpowered 9 bijuudamas.
Mokuton buddah's equivalent of that would be blocking 11 bijuudama + swords at the cost of its entire 1,000 arm backpack.  
on the offensive side, Naruto's strongest shown offense is the super bijuudama, a bijuudama that's probably larger than PS itself, and the resulting blast is island level, and rivaling the biggest attack we've seen at VoTe.  However, we know that the output of mokubuddah is suppose to be the equivalent of 11 bijuudama + PS swords and it doesn't seem that Naruto's bijuudama would up their with that kind of strength.

So that's where they stand as far as attacking and defense.  Anything else that they have doesn't really matter.  Mokujin, mokuryu and flower tree world are all pretty much fodder when dealing with the destruction that Naruto can dish and his versatility in doing so as all three of those techs were vaporized by just being in the blast radius of a bijuudama.  Flower tree world and mokuryu could be busted by FRS as mokuryu couldn't withstand the traveling force of a bijuudama.  Naruto has also shown that he can sense surprise attacks from under the ground against extremely fast people like juubito, so he should have no problem against mokutons that he can bust popping up from the ground.  

So 1 vs 1, with portrayal scrapped, Hashirama should still outright beat Naruto or outlast him though with difficulty. 

The wild card in this thread though is kyuubi chakra cloaked sasuke.  Sasuke hasn't even properly gone all out in a battle yet, and if the kyuubi cloak gives him as much of a powerboost as hinata's and kakashi's jutsu, then he's most likely above Naruto and closer to hashirama's level, maybe even on equal footing.  And then the A>B>C logic comes in and thus Sasuke and Naruto could win.  

Conclusion: It depends on what are current sasuke's limits and how much he gets powered up by the kyuubi cloak.  Based on what I think he can currently do, how much his jutsu should be powered up, and how Naruto stacks up to Hashirama (at least featwise) I think Naruto and Sasuke should be the favorite.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2013)

Naruto's BM should be able to pressure Base Hashirama, but between Flower Tree World, Mokuton Jizo Defense,  5 Roshomon, Mokuton Living Soul, and Wood Dragon I think Base Hashirama could still probably pull out the win. However while Sasuke has yet to show he's up to the level of BM Naruto or Base Hashirama, his Stage 4 Susano'o with Enton + Aoda still very potent, so adding him in should tip the scales enough where Hashirama won't get overwhelmed, but he will probably opt for SM.

Here's where the trouble starts though as SM Hashirama's Buddha is far beyond the level of Sasuke and even quite a great deal about Naruto's level. So what this now comes down to is how effective Naruto boosting Sasuke would be. If giving Sasuke enough Kyuubi chakra could allow Sasuke to summon out his own P-Susano'o equipped with as many suspect Enton weapons, than perhaps we could see P-Susano'o wrapping around BM as armor and than see Continuos Bijuu Bombs combined with Sasuke's Enton Arrows or see BM Naruto generate huge FRS to combine with massive Enton Arrows, which may be enough to counter Buddha, heck they might actually be on the winning edge a bit. Though from there who knows how this match would go.

So really it depends on how Naruto's Boosting element interacts with Sasuke and how well they can combine BM and P-Susano'o, if the boosting does indeed awaken P-Susano'o in Sasuke. I honestly could see them winning especially if Sasuke's skill with EMS grows throughout the battle as I expect it will during this Juubi fight, but than again I could also see them losing because Sasuke starts the match potentially too early in his EMS development. So i'm 50/50 on this one


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## Nikushimi (Aug 3, 2013)

Hashirama stomps.


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## Veracity (Aug 3, 2013)

Wtf this shit? Did someone say Hashirama was scared of Kurama? That's funny. The same man who can simply touch the creature and knock it unconscious. 

SM Hashirama wins mid-difficulty. 2 wood dragons could hold Naruto off while a Wood Golem Solos Sasuke.
Then the Buddha statue cleans up Naruto. BM Naruto(with half of Kuramas chakra) doesn't have more firepower then 10 Kurama tailed blasts with PS swords. No way.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 3, 2013)

Hashirama stomps. 
EMS Madara w/ 100% Kurama >>> BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke (combined)

The man is built to counter Bijuu and outclasses the supreme Uchiha.

Shinsuusenju turns the duo into paste, while the statue itself grabs Kurama - if the fox isn't dead yet - and chokes it to death with its massive hands; they are 'literally' leagues apart. In order to reach Hashirama's level, Naruto requires a BM/SM combination (plus Kurama's missing chakra), and Sasuke needs an extreme fragment of power to compete.

In base, Hashirama possesses the tools to dominate.
SM included... moderate difficulty (under the worst of circumstances)


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## Jak N Blak (Aug 3, 2013)

The stubbornness. You Hashirama supporters are purposely blinding yourselves from the truth and you know it too.

Kurama cloak Sasuke alone would absolutely EMBARRASS Hashirama. I see some wise gentlemen above saying 'it all depends on the boost Sasuke would get.'

C'mon son...just come straight out and state the FACTS. The boost Sasuke would get would be enough to ignite Budha in one go. Then Naruto can throw 10 Super FRSz to speed up its disintegration into the flames of hell.

GET REAL


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## Rocky (Aug 3, 2013)

If Cloaked _Hinata_ can fling around the Tails of the Juubi with mere air palms, then let's not mindlessly shout "Hashirama pastes them no diff." 

Sasuke & Naruto's attacks together are basically _built_ to bring down Hashirama's wood techniques.


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## Csdabest (Aug 3, 2013)

Yeah. I got my money on Naruto and Sasuke. Boss summoning aerial summoning enton. Big bijuu damas and plenty of clones. Naruxsasu has what it takes to overwhelm hashrama.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 3, 2013)

Naruto and Sasuke still has a long way to go before they can match Hashirama. 

RM Naruto got blitzed by crippled Nagato. EMS Sasuke would have got owned by Kabuto if Itachi did not save him. After their encounter only Naruto improved where he did achieve perfect Jin status. Even with that title his still no match against Hashirama. Sure Naruto powering Sasuke would be hard to take down, but nothing suggests his susano would be anything like Madara's Perfect Susano. Amaterasu would be stronger and bigger with Kyuubi's chakra, but knowing Yamato could turn the flame down with simple doton jutsu, it would be easy for Hashirama to turn it off. Large scale attacks are Hashirama's specialty, he can make forest, mountains in a matter of seconds. (Recall Naruto wind arc training, Yamato make a plateau with river flowing) Hashirama is basically Yamato x100000. 

Naruto can never be able to defeat Hashirama without heavy restriction due to Hashirama's special ability of subduing Bijuu's.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 3, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Naruto can never be able to defeat Hashirama without heavy restriction due to Hashirama's special ability of subduing Bijuu's.



This.

/10char


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## Nikushimi (Aug 3, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> The stubbornness. You Hashirama supporters are purposely blinding yourselves from the truth and you know it too.
> 
> Kurama cloak Sasuke alone would absolutely EMBARRASS Hashirama. I see some wise gentlemen above saying 'it all depends on the boost Sasuke would get.'
> 
> ...





Rocky said:


> If Cloaked _Hinata_ can fling around the Tails of the Juubi with mere air palms, then let's not mindlessly shout "Hashirama pastes them no diff."
> 
> Sasuke & Naruto's attacks together are basically _built_ to bring down Hashirama's wood techniques.



Hashirama was able to fight, match, and defeat Madara+the 100% Kyuubi. Here, he's fighting Sasuke and Naruto using 50% of the Kyuubi.

Hashirama stomps.


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## ueharakk (Aug 3, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama was able to fight, match, and defeat Madara+the 100% Kyuubi. Here, he's fighting Sasuke and Naruto using 50% of the Kyuubi.
> 
> Hashirama stomps.




SM Naruto was beating 50% kurama, does that mean SM Naruto > BM Naruto >> KCM Naruto?  

Does SM Naruto's clone beating Sandaime raikage mean SM Naruto >>>>>>> Hachibi?

Kyuubi cloaked kakashi was about to oneshot the juubi, does that mean Kakashi >>>>>>>>>>> EMS Sasuke since even with the kyuubi cloak and Naruto, Sasuke gets stomped?

What happens when the juubi tries to destroy the barrier?  What happens when a mindless juubito using that same juubi's power tries to do the same thing?  

Yeah no, the only people who say Hashirama stomps are the ones that just pick and chose instances in the manga and use fallacious A>B>C logic while ignoring what they don't like.


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## Senkou (Aug 3, 2013)

Wood dragon, thousand arm statue, anti-biju build.

Hashirama wins.

I know some of you lot are going against the grain to just be different but Naruto would get binded and Sasuke is a 1 trick pony spammer without offensive genjutsu and a smaller chakra pool than Madara. Sasuke would get wrecked after his Susanoo drains his shit to zero and Hashirama still has half an ocean of chakra to spare.

Hashirama beat a dude who can SUMMON A FUCKING METEOR TWICE! He can handle a lesser Uchihole and Naruto. Needless to say.


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## Jak N Blak (Aug 3, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama was able to fight, match, and defeat Madara+the 100% Kyuubi. Here, he's fighting Sasuke and Naruto using 50% of the Kyuubi.
> 
> Hashirama stomps.



Its like...you people didn't see that a little tap of Lord Kurama's chakra gave a dying Kakashi the power to warp the Great Eight Tails. I repeat...DYING KAKASHI.

I have nothing more to say. This thread is done.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> SM Naruto was beating 50% kurama, does that mean SM Naruto > BM Naruto >> KCM Naruto?



Naruto beating Kurama only required that he knock the damn thing back and rip it's chakra out. Even then, he would've died twice if not for B's intervention in the beginning and then those mysterious gates dropping out of the sky to subdue the Kyuubi at the end.



> Does SM Naruto's clone beating Sandaime raikage mean SM Naruto >>>>>>> Hachibi?



No, because if Sandaime simply decided not to use his One-Finger Nukite at all, he would've raped Sage Naruto.



> Kyuubi cloaked kakashi was about to oneshot the juubi, does that mean Kakashi >>>>>>>>>>> EMS Sasuke since even with the kyuubi cloak and Naruto, Sasuke gets stomped?



If you're talking about Gedou Mazo, Sasuke could probably destroy that by himself.



> What happens when the juubi tries to destroy the barrier?  What happens when a mindless juubito using that same juubi's power tries to do the same thing?
> 
> Yeah no, the only people who say Hashirama stomps are the ones that just pick and chose instances in the manga and use fallacious A>B>C logic while ignoring what they don't like.



Except it's not fallacious. Hashirama>100% Kyuubi+Madara>50% Kyuubi+Sasuke.



Jak N Blak said:


> Its like...you people didn't see that a little tap of Lord Kurama's chakra gave a dying Kakashi the power to warp the Great Eight Tails. I repeat...DYING KAKASHI.
> 
> I have nothing more to say. This thread is done.



If only Hashirama was massively more powerful than the Hachibi and Kakashi put together...

Oh wait. He is.


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## Chad (Aug 3, 2013)

Base Hashirama is enough to take this. His arsenal is a perfect counter to Naruto.

Naruto's Bijuudama's are not able to destroy any form of Mokuton because by feats, base mokuton was able to tank Kurama's Bijuudama from point blank range, with little damage. A Bijuudama from the Prime Kyuubi has both Yin and Yang chakra, so it has much more energy values than current Naruto's Bijuudama. Not only that, but Hashirama can catch any size variant bijuudama from Naruto with a Golem, seeing as how Naruto cannot make his bijuudama "un-catchable" like Madara did. Frog Kuchiyose are irrelevant to the power schemes of today. And seeing as how Hashirama himself was engulfed in Kurama's Bijuudama and came out with little damage proves the theory on how large enzymes produced at a molecular rate is enough to take a Bijuudama. 

Sauce is almost irrelevant because Hashirama can throw back Naruto's Bijuudama's at Sasuke.


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## ueharakk (Aug 3, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Naruto beating Kurama only required that he knock the damn thing back and rip it's chakra out. Even then, he would've died twice if not for B's intervention in the beginning and then those mysterious gates dropping out of the sky to subdue the Kyuubi at the end.


None of that matter right?  Your entire Hashirama > Madara + 100% Kurama is a pure outcome of battle argument, so the stipulations of the battle are irrelevant.  

but even if we play that game, a single FRS incapacitated Kurama for a whole chapter.  If the battle was just to beat the other, Kurama was done then and there as Naruto was free to just follow up with more FRS which would cause the beast to become weaker and weaker.

Bee also saved BASE naruto, not SM Naruto.



Nikushimi said:


> No, because if Sandaime simply decided not to use his One-Finger Nukite at all, he would've raped Sage Naruto.


once again, the abilities that one displays in a battle is irrelevant since your entire argument is just an outcome A>B>C one which disregards the abilities that each shinobi used and possesses in a fight.




Nikushimi said:


> If you're talking about Gedou Mazo, Sasuke could probably destroy that by himself.


Nope, I'm talking about the Juubi that Kakashi was about to get rid of before obito grabbed him and warped him into the other dimension.




Nikushimi said:


> Except it's not fallacious. Hashirama>100% Kyuubi+Madara>50% Kyuubi+Sasuke.


except it is fallacious as BM Naruto >>>>>>>>>> 50% Kyuubi and Kyuubi cloaked Sasuke >>>>>>>>>>> Sasuke

That and you pretty much ignored the first part of the post you quoted which shows that a jinchuriki, even if mindless is way more powerful than the bijuu alone.



Bluenote said:


> Base Hashirama is enough to take this. His arsenal is a perfect counter to Naruto.
> 
> Naruto's Bijuudama's are not able to destroy any form of Mokuton because by feats, base mokuton was able to tank Kurama's Bijuudama from point blank range, with little damage.


completely false.  mokujin, mokuryu and the entire mokuton forest that was caught in the blast radius were all obliterated.  Mokuryu was busted by a bijuudama merely passing through the construct.  Only mokuton hobi, allows hashirama to survive the blast radius of a bijuudama.  



Bluenote said:


> A Bijuudama from the Prime Kyuubi has both Yin and Yang chakra, so it has much more energy values than current Naruto's Bijuudama. Not only that, but Hashirama can catch any size variant bijuudama from Naruto with a Golem, seeing as how Naruto cannot make his bijuudama "un-catchable" like Madara did.


Prime kyuubi's bijuudama possessing yin and yang are irrelevant.  The strength of a bijuudama is determined by size of bijuudama and blast radius.  The one kurama used was comparable to the ones that Naruto deflected with his shunshin, and a little larger than rapidfire bijuudama.   Also, the golem only has two hands, so rapidfire bijuudama, Fuuton rasenshuriken or super bijuudama end it.



Bluenote said:


> Frog Kuchiyose are irrelevant to the power schemes of today. And seeing as how Hashirama himself was engulfed in Kurama's Bijuudama and came out with little damage proves the theory on how large enzymes produced at a molecular rate is enough to take a Bijuudama.


When did this happen?  If you are talking about when he was on shinsuusenjuu, his mokuryu and mokujin were undamaged as well yet those same things were obliterated by the blast radius of a standard bijuudama.  Thus hashirama never took such force.



Bluenote said:


> Sauce is almost irrelevant because Hashirama can throw back Naruto's Bijuudama's at Sasuke.


Kyuubi chakra cloak makes people like hinata relevent when fighting the juubi.  Sasuke with the cloak is probably more relevant than Naruto.


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## Chad (Aug 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> completely false.  mokujin, mokuryu and the entire mokuton forest that was caught in the blast radius were all obliterated.  Mokuryu was busted by a bijuudama merely passing through the construct.  Only mokuton hobi, allows hashirama to survive the blast radius of a bijuudama.



And? The Bijuudama was large enough to engulf both the Kyuubi and the Mokuton Hobi. And the Mokuton Hobi was unscathed. 




> Prime kyuubi's bijuudama possessing yin and yang are irrelevant.  The strength of a bijuudama is determined by size of bijuudama and blast radius.  The one kurama used was comparable to the ones that Naruto deflected with his shunshin, and a little larger than rapidfire bijuudama.   Also, the golem only has two hands, so rapidfire bijuudama, Fuuton rasenshuriken or super bijuudama end it.



No, Yin and Yang completely matters. The strength of the bijuu bomb is not only determind by size, Energy Values also take a part of it. Think about it, what is more powerful, a large smoke bomb or a small C4? Obviously the C4.  The size of the bomb is not the only thing that takes into consideration when determining the damage of the Bijuudama.

The blast radius from Kurama was able to engulf the perfect Susanoo, all of Hashirama's mokuton and the surrounding mountains. It's much larger than the fodder bijuudamas that Naruto deflected.

Yin and Yang not only gives the bijuudama more energy values, but it also provides the Kyuubi enough chakra to spam those large scale bijuudamas. Golem may have only two hands, but Hotei can create 6 hands. And what is to stop Hashirama from making more Golems? huh

lolFRS. A single Bijuudama from Naruto's Rapid Fire Spam is tremendously weaker than Naruto's normal sized Bijuudama. Naruto's strongest Bijuudama is Bijuudama Flash. He cannot spam that as he does not have enough chakra to do so. Multiple Golems are enough to withstand that. If all else fails, Gojuu Rashomons added to his defenses would surely defend against Naruto's 1 time Large Bijuudama. And if even Mokuton Defense added with 5 layers of Rashomon fails, Hashirama can also make 2 clones and use a 1 sided red sun barrier. Which will no doubt defend against Naruto's 1 time Bijuudama.



> When did this happen?  If you are talking about when he was on shinsuusenjuu, his mokuryu and mokujin were undamaged as well yet those same things were obliterated by the blast radius of a standard bijuudama.  Thus hashirama never took such force.



This bijuudama here was large enough to engulf Hashirama in the blast radius.



> Kyuubi chakra cloak makes people like hinata relevent when fighting the juubi.  Sasuke with the cloak is probably more relevant than Naruto.



So how is Kyuubi chakra going to boost Sasuke? Is it going to protect him from Pollen Word? Does Kyuubi chakra give Sasuke senses to counter Kokuangyo? 

------

Things you should give me a counter to:
1. Hokage-Shiki Jijun Jutsu ? Kakuan Nitten Suishu. Yamato's fodder Mokuton was enough to take down 4tk Naruto. As far as we know, Hashirama's mokuton is at least 9000 times better and more effective than Yamato's.
2. Manga states that Prime Hashirama had 5 Bijuu under his control. So how does Naruto counter 5 Bijuu along with Hashirama when Naruto and Killer Bee had a hard time fighting 5 of them.


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## ueharakk (Aug 3, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> And? The Bijuudama was large enough to engulf both the Kyuubi and the Mokuton Hobi. And the Mokuton Hobi was unscathed.


so since none of what you just typed has anything to do with your claim that "Naruto's bijuudamas are not able to destroy any form of mokuton", then I'm guessing you concede that point, and accept my argument that only mokuton hobi can survive the blast radius.





Bluenote said:


> No, Yin and Yang completely matters. The strength of the bijuu bomb is not only determind by size, Energy Values also take a part of it. Think about it, what is more powerful, a large smoke bomb or a small C4? Obviously the C4.  The size of the bomb is not the only thing that takes into consideration when determining the damage of the Bijuudama.


That's why I said that both the size of the dama and BLAST RADIUS are what indicates the power of the technique. 

And comparing  a small C4 to a smoke bomb is a disingenuous example of comparing a bijuudama to another bijuudama since both are made of the exact same thing: black and white chakra.



Bluenote said:


> The blast radius from Kurama was able to engulf the perfect Susanoo, all of Hashirama's mokuton and the surrounding mountains. It's much larger than the fodder bijuudamas that Naruto deflected.


Really now?  *This is how big the blast radius* of the dama that erased Hashirama's mokuton, it cleared all that area that's surrounded by those mountains and the forest in the foreground.

The *blast radius of neo pain's* were larger than* this area that was cleared by bee's whirlwind.*

So unless the hachibi is only about as big as 100% Kurama's head, then no the blast hashirama survived is in no way larger or more powerful than what naruto deflected.



Bluenote said:


> *Yin and Yang not only gives the bijuudama more energy values*, but it also provides the Kyuubi enough chakra to spam those large scale bijuudamas. Golem may have only two hands, but Hotei can create 6 hands. And what is to stop Hashirama from making more Golems? huh


What in the world is the bolded based on?  BM Naruto using only Yang chakra made a bijuudama just as big as the 5 other combined yin and yang chakra from the other 5 bijuu.   Yet by your logic, Naruto's bijuudama should be way weaker than theirs.  So obviously your yin and yang theory is false.

Next, the kyuubi being able to spam bijuudamas is irrelevant, you were contesting the POWER of those bijuudamas.

Finally, it's only the golems that have the feat to catch bijuudamas, and hashirama has only made one golem at a time.  If you want to give hashirama abilities that he has never been shown to have, then you'd have to do the same for BM Naruto.  And thus what's to stop BM Naruto from making 1,000 BM clones all with the full kyuubi avatar launching super bijuudamas?



Bluenote said:


> lolFRS.


since lol "insert argument" isn't a counterargument, then I guess you concede that FRS does destroy all those things I listed that it can.



Bluenote said:


> A single Bijuudama from Naruto's Rapid Fire Spam is tremendously weaker than Naruto's normal sized Bijuudama.


Irrelevant since it's not tremendously weaker than the bijuudama that erased mokujin, mokuryu and all the mokuton that was caught in its blast radius.  Each rapidfire bijuudama had a blast radius big enough to encompass the juubi itself, a being much larger than 100% Kurama.



Bluenote said:


> Naruto's strongest Bijuudama is Bijuudama Flash. *He cannot spam that as he does not have enough chakra to do so*.


When was the bolded ever stated or implied?  Every time he runs out of BM, it's because of the time limit due to his imperfect connection with kurama, NOT because he ran out of chakra.



Bluenote said:


> Multiple Golems are enough to withstand that. If all else fails, Gojuu Rashomons added to his defenses would surely defend against Naruto's 1 time Large Bijuudama.


Any golem caught within the blast radius of even a rapidfire bijuudama is going to be gone after the blast unless it's call mokuton hobi.  Gojuu rashoumons has nothing on a bijuudama, tripple rashomon couldn't even null a KN4 sized bijuudama, Hashirama's rashoumons only served to deflect the dama so that it could safely explode miles away.

And of course none of that is going to stop a super bijuudama, if it goes off, all of those things you've listed including hashirama are going to be gone, the super is outputting island level energy, nothing base hashirama has a ghost of a chance to defend against.

Finally, if you give him the ability to use multiple golems, then Naruto gets the ability to use multiple Kurama avatars, and thus you're looking at a hailstorm of rapidfire bijuudamas and multiple supers against a bunch of golems that can't withstand the blast radius of a large mountain-buster.



Bluenote said:


> And if even Mokuton Defense added with 5 layers of Rashomon fails, Hashirama can also make 2 clones and use a 1 sided red sun barrier. Which will no doubt defend against Naruto's 1 time Bijuudama.


Because hashirama has the ability to make clones that can errect the red sun barrier.  No, hashirama's clones are fodders when he's holding up the barrier, madara dealt with them while sitting down and they were having trouble with boss summon-sized juubispawn.




Bluenote said:


> This bijuudama here was large enough to engulf Hashirama in the blast radius.




Except if you go a few pages later, we see hashirama is protected within moku hobi, so no that's not a durability feat or regenerative feat for hashirama himself in the slightest, only for that mokuton construct that he used to survive.




Bluenote said:


> So how is Kyuubi chakra going to boost Sasuke? Is it going to protect him from Pollen Word? Does Kyuubi chakra give Sasuke senses to counter Kokuangyo?




Lets see, Kurama chakra lets Kakashi go from struggling to kamui GM's head to kamui'ing the whole juubi.
Kyuubi chakra lets hinata go from air palming mokuton spears to air palming one of the juubi's arms across the battlefield.

Apply that same magnitude of boost to sasuke's jutsu and you get Sasuke with a PS sized susanoo with enton blades as a CONSERVATIVE boost .  Flower treeworld gets set ablaze and slashed into pieces.



Bluenote said:


> Things you should give me a counter to:
> 1. Hokage-Shiki Jijun Jutsu ? Kakuan Nitten Suishu. Yamato's fodder Mokuton was enough to take down 4tk Naruto. As far as we know, Hashirama's mokuton is at least 9000 times better and more effective than Yamato's.


That's completely irrelevant since I've already shown how naruto takes down the mokuton constructs.  Sure if Naruto decides to wrestle with the mokuton, it's going to be mokuryu, however if he uses ninjutsu or bijuudama, it's not a problem. 



Bluenote said:


> 2. Manga states that Prime Hashirama had 5 Bijuu under his control. So how does Naruto counter 5 Bijuu along with Hashirama when *Naruto and Killer Bee had a hard time fighting 5 of them.*


Oh so Hashirama needs 5 bijuu on top of all the things he's displayed at VoTe to decisively win against Naruto and Sasuke?  I'm fine with that.  

However, the bolded is completely untrue, as soon as NAruto's BM came out (you know, the power he's using in this thread herp derp) they had no problems against the 5 bijuu, the battle was completely onesided, and naruto ended up matching them and defeating them alone.


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## Rocky (Aug 4, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama was able to fight, match, and defeat Madara+the 100% Kyuubi.



Barely. And....I don't care. Different Shinobi, different skill-sets. Specifically, Sasuke's Naruto-pumped Amaterasu. Sasuke & Naruto's normal combination attacks bother the Juubi itself.




> Naruto using 50% of the Kyuubi.





Yeah Jinchuriki are already stronger than Bijuu. While Naruto may not have the entire Kyuubi, he's  no normal Jinchuriki either. He's the Sage of Six Paths reincarnate. His Bijuu Mode is noticeably different than that of any other Jinchuriki as well, with the Rikudou cloak and all that jazz.


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## Chad (Aug 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> That's why I said that both the size of the dama and BLAST RADIUS are what indicates the power of the technique.
> 
> And comparing  a small C4 to a smoke bomb is a disingenuous example of comparing a bijuudama to another bijuudama since both are made of the exact same thing: black and white chakra.



Same thing Black and White chakra yes, but it's the *amount * of black and white chakra that matters. In case you haven't realized, it's possible to compress a lot of chakra into a small ball, hence the Rasengan. In this case, Kyuubi's prime has much more chakra than Naruto.



> Really now?  This is how big the blast radius of the dama that erased Hashirama's mokuton, it cleared all that area that's surrounded by those mountains and the forest in the foreground.
> 
> The radius of neo pain's were larger than this area that was cleared by bee's whirlwind.[/URL]
> 
> So unless the hachibi is only about as big as 100% Kurama's head, then no the blast hashirama survived is in no way larger or more powerful than what naruto deflected.


 


Post RDS Kurama is more than 5 times smaller than his prime. Killer Bee is just as big as BM Naruto today, so it's true that Hachibi is very small in comparison to the Kyuubi's prime.



> What in the world is the bolded based on?  BM Naruto using only Yang chakra made a bijuudama just as big as the 5 other combined yin and yang chakra from the other 5 bijuu.   Yet by your logic, Naruto's bijuudama should be way weaker than theirs.  So obviously your yin and yang theory is false.



Kyuubi chakra > the other 5 bijuu. Kurama's prime Bijuudama would have had better results than what Naruto did.



> Next, the kyuubi being able to spam bijuudamas is irrelevant, you were contesting the POWER of those bijuudamas.



I was not saying that spamming is the same thing as power. It was to show that he can dish out MUCH more than Naruto. It was just a suggestion.



> Finally, it's only the golems that have the feat to catch bijuudamas, and hashirama has only made one golem at a time.  If you want to give hashirama abilities that he has never been shown to have, then you'd have to do the same for BM Naruto.  And thus what's to stop BM Naruto from making 1,000 BM clones all with the full kyuubi avatar launching super bijuudamas?



With your logic, Hotei no Jutsu can't catch even though it has hands. I've don't have feats of catching a baseball in my life, but that doesn't mean I can't do it.


No, your disregarding the chakra levels and consumption of either side. Bijuu Mode is far more chakra taxing to Naruto than Base Mokuton is to Hashirama. I thought that was obvious. Golem is not chakra taxing, seeing as how Hashirama never showcased any forms of fatigued and how he was able to have a Golem, 2 Mokuryuu's and Jukai Koutan all at the same time with out chakra fatigue. Naruto on the other hand, tires from making 2 bm clones.




> since lol "insert argument" isn't a counterargument, then I guess you concede that FRS does destroy all those things I listed that it can.



lolsinceyouforgot that FRS made by KM/BM is made out of Bijuu chakra, it would have much less effects that it would normally on Mokuton. Sage FRS is a much better opponent to Mokuton.



> Irrelevant since it's not tremendously weaker than the bijuudama that erased mokujin, mokuryu and all the mokuton that was caught in its blast radius.  Each rapidfire bijuudama had a blast radius big enough to encompass the juubi itself, a being much larger than 100% Kurama.



lolnope. This right here is the continuous dama's that the Juubi took. There are only 5 visible explosions, which is not the amount of bombs that Bee and Naruto blew out. Which means..... that 2 balls they fired at the Juubi combined for one explosion. Meaning that each little ball from Continuous Bijuudama is only half as strong. 

I already proved to you above that BM Naruto is 5 times smaller than 100% Kyuubi. Meaning that 100% Juubi's size is very close to the Derp Juubi's, as seen here.



> When was the bolded ever stated or implied?  Every time he runs out of BM, it's because of the time limit due to his imperfect connection with kurama, NOT because he ran out of chakra.



In chapter 571, Kurama says Naruto can only sustain BM for 5 minutes. Naruto in no way shape or form fought for 5 minutes. After he used Bijuudama flash and took out the rods, Naruto was completely exhausted and Kurama could not feed him any more chakra.



> Any golem caught within the blast radius of even a rapidfire bijuudama is going to be gone after the blast unless it's call mokuton hobi.  Gojuu rashoumons has nothing on a bijuudama, tripple rashomon couldn't even null a KN4 sized bijuudama, Hashirama's rashoumons only served to deflect the dama so that it could safely explode miles away.



You're neglecting the fact that not only is Rapidfire bijuudama weaker than Naruto's ultimate bijuudama, but it does not scathe the wood golem. Hashirama can pour as much chakra as he wants into his wood to make it more durable.

I wasn't suggesting that Rashomon can defend against a bijuudama, I was suggesting that it *helps* when added to Mokuton Defense.



> And of course none of that is going to stop a super bijuudama, if it goes off, all of those things you've listed including hashirama are going to be gone, the super is outputting island level energy, nothing base hashirama has a ghost of a chance to defend against.



Prime Kyuubi's bijuudama puts out both island level energy AND size.





> Finally, if you give him the ability to use multiple golems, then Naruto gets the ability to use multiple Kurama avatars, and thus you're looking at a hailstorm of rapidfire bijuudamas and multiple supers against a bunch of golems that can't withstand the blast radius of a large mountain-buster.



I've explained this before. Hashirama can logically use multiple golems with his level of chakra and that lack of chakra consumption that base mokuton requires. Naruto can't logically do anything you say due to his large chakra consumption in bijuu mode.



> Because hashirama has the ability to make clones that can errect the red sun barrier.  No, hashirama's clones are fodders when he's holding up the barrier, madara dealt with them while sitting down and they were having trouble with boss summon-sized juubispawn.



 Our argument is whether Hashirama can defend against Naruto's Bijuudama. The fact that their fodder is irrelevant because Naruto can't do anything else while charging a Bijuudama. You also seem to be forgetting the fact that Naruto's largest bijuudama has an extremely long charge time AND requires him to sit still and concentrate.



> Except if you go a few pages later, we see hashirama is protected within moku hobi, so no that's not a durability feat or regenerative feat for hashirama himself in the slightest, only for that mokuton construct that he used to survive.



Like you say, a bijuudama destroys everything in it's path, therefore Hashirama did tank that because mokuton fails. 

I was trying to disprove your logic.



> Lets see, Kurama chakra lets Kakashi go from struggling to kamui GM's head to kamui'ing the whole juubi.
> Kyuubi chakra lets hinata go from air palming mokuton spears to air palming one of the juubi's arms across the battlefield.



lolKakashi was aiming for the head both times.



> Apply that same magnitude of boost to sasuke's jutsu and you get Sasuke with a PS sized susanoo with enton blades as a CONSERVATIVE boost .  Flower treeworld gets set ablaze and slashed into pieces.



You are exaggerating the power of Kyuubi chakra. Unless you explain to me how Kyuubi chakra can boost Sasuke from a 20 ft Susanoo to a 150+ meter Susanoo.



> That's completely irrelevant since I've already shown how naruto takes down the mokuton constructs.  Sure if Naruto decides to wrestle with the mokuton, it's going to be mokuryu, however if he uses ninjutsu or bijuudama, it's not a problem.



Large Scale Bijuudamas requires a LONG CHARGE time. Hashirama has shown to be able to use 2 Mokuryuu's at the same time, each which are bigger and stronger than Madara's mokuryuu.

If Hashirama was smart(which he is), he would know that Naruto's charge time is the perfect change to go on the offense.



> Oh so Hashirama needs 5 bijuu on top of all the things he's displayed at VoTe to decisively win against Naruto and Sasuke?  I'm fine with that.



He just needs 5 Bijuu and Base Mokuton. He doesn't need Sage Mode as it completely stomps Naruto.



> However, the bolded is completely untrue, as soon as NAruto's BM came out (you know, the power he's using in this thread herp derp) *they *had no problems against the 5 bijuu, the battle was completely onesided, and naruto ended up matching them and defeating them *alone*.



The words they and alone are contradicting.

And I'm pretty sure that Killer Bee helped out.


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## Ashi (Aug 4, 2013)

Hashirama took on Madara with the nine tails already Sasuke is weaker than Madara already and naruto is <= that kurama so unless they do some serious teamwork they're not winning anytime soon


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## ueharakk (Aug 4, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Same thing Black and White chakra yes, but it's the *amount * of black and white chakra that matters. In case you haven't realized, it's possible to compress a lot of chakra into a small ball, hence the Rasengan. In this case, Kyuubi's prime has much more chakra than Naruto.


I agree with all of that, yet none of it implies or is any way shape or form evidence that even suggests that a bijuudama from 100% kurama of the same size as a bijuudama from another bijuu is going to be much more powerful.  If you want to argue that, you've got to support it with some kind of argument or evidence from the manga.  




Bluenote said:


> Post RDS Kurama is more than 5 times smaller than his prime. Killer Bee is just as big as BM Naruto today, so it's true that Hachibi is very small in comparison to the Kyuubi's prime.


Sure the 100% Kurama is much larger than the hachibi, but in order for Kurama's BD to be even questionably larger than the ones from neo pain, the hachibi and its tails would have to be smaller than 100% Kurama's head.  And until you try and argue that, my point stands that kurama's BD against base hashi is no more powerful than the ones BM Naruto deflected.




Bluenote said:


> Kyuubi chakra > the other 5 bijuu. Kurama's prime Bijuudama would have had better results than what Naruto did.


Based on what?  If Kyuubi chakra > the other 5 bijuu and Naruto created a bijuudama of the exact same size as the one the other bijuus created, then Naruto's bijuudama would have pushed back or overpowered the one that the other bijuu used.  So again, your arguments are proven illogical and false.




Bluenote said:


> I was not saying that spamming is the same thing as power. It was to show that he can dish out MUCH more than Naruto. It was just a suggestion.


He has been shown to spam a lot more bijuudamas in a row (11 vs 5) than naruto , however he has not been shown to dish out an equivalent of Naruto's super bijuudama (which isn't even naruto's MAX bijuudama).




Bluenote said:


> With your logic, Hotei no Jutsu can't catch even though it has hands. I've don't have feats of catching a baseball in my life, but that doesn't mean I can't do it.


Why is that so?  Does Mokujin being able to catch a bijuudama mean that ANY mokuton construct can catch a bijuudama?  Obviously not.  IF mere wood arms could catch and send bijuudamas back, then hashirama wouldn't have even bothered to make mokujin, he'd just have a normal wood arm catch and send it back. 

And of course, if you want to extrapolate Hashirama's feats, then you have to do the same for naruto's.



Bluenote said:


> No, your disregarding the chakra levels and consumption of either side. Bijuu Mode is far more chakra taxing to Naruto than Base Mokuton is to Hashirama. I thought that was obvious. Golem is not chakra taxing, seeing as how Hashirama never showcased any forms of fatigued and how he was able to have a Golem, 2 Mokuryuu's and Jukai Koutan all at the same time with out chakra fatigue. Naruto on the other hand, tires from making 2 bm clones.


We've only seen base hashirama use 1 golem how in the world do you go from that to hashirama using multiple golems? Naruto's BM is in no way chakra taxing (comparative to Naruto's total chakra) seeing as Naruto has never shown fatigue while in it and the manga specifically states the only reason he exits the mode is because of the imperfect connection between himself and kurama NOT because he used up all of his kurama chakra.

Oh and please please show me a scan that even slightly suggest Naruto tires after making 2 bm clones.  Show me a scan of Naruto showing any sign of fatigue while in BM.





Bluenote said:


> lolsinceyouforgot that FRS made by KM/BM is made out of Bijuu chakra, it would have much less effects that it would normally on Mokuton. Sage FRS is a much better opponent to Mokuton.


What in the living hell is this based off of?  when has any attack used in KCM/BM been even slightly implied to be WEAKER against mokuton?  When naruto used pure kurama chakra to stop Madara's Mokuton forest, did his oodama rasengans have much less of an affect than it would normally on mokuton?  





Bluenote said:


> lolnope. This right here is the continuous dama's that the Juubi took. There are only 5 visible explosions, which is not the amount of bombs that Bee and Naruto blew out. Which means..... that 2 balls they fired at the Juubi combined for one explosion. Meaning that each little ball from Continuous Bijuudama is only half as strong.


Completely and utterly false. First off their were 9 bijuudamas fired and 6 explosion, so 9/2 =/= 6, therefore your ridiculous assertion is already impossible to be considered true.  Next there's the fact that we see the smoke from the previous bijuudama's explosions to the side of the current explosions, thus that's why we don't see all 9 explosions: because some of the damas had exploded already.  Also, this scan conclusively disproves your assertion that one explosion was represented as 2 bijuudamas as we see 4 explosions from the 4 bijuudamas that bee fired in *this scan.*




Bluenote said:


> I already proved to you above that BM Naruto is 5 times smaller than 100% Kyuubi. Meaning that 100% Juubi's size is very close to the Derp Juubi's, as seen here.


Except that's once again completely false as the total size of the juubi is much MUCH greater than 5x the size of BM Naruto as the juubi's tails extend to make it *much much longer and larger *than what you see in that scan you posted.




Bluenote said:


> In chapter 571, Kurama says Naruto can only sustain BM for 5 minutes. Naruto in no way shape or form fought for 5 minutes. After he used Bijuudama flash and took out the rods, Naruto was completely exhausted and Kurama could not feed him any more chakra.


Nope, 5 minutes was the time limit given to Naruto and that's how much time transpired for his duration of BM.  We see later the second time he uses it, he was able to hold it for 8 minutes despite Naruto using WAY more chakra than he used the first time.




Bluenote said:


> You're neglecting the fact that not only is Rapidfire bijuudama weaker than Naruto's ultimate bijuudama, but it does not scathe the wood golem. Hashirama can pour as much chakra as he wants into his wood to make it more durable.


Negged.

You pretty much forced me to do this.  Nothing I have ever EVER typed has even remotely suggested that Rapidfire bijuudama is even in the same ballpark as naruto's ultimate bijuudama.  And please oh please show me Hashirama pouring more chakra into a wood jutsu in order to make it more durable than that same wood jutsu normally is. IF you can't do that, then it's once again a concession on your part since you have nothing that supports your own argument.



Bluenote said:


> I wasn't suggesting that Rashomon can defend against a bijuudama, I was suggesting that it *helps* when added to Mokuton Defense.


So in order to defend against just one bijuudama, hashirama is going to use rashoumon gates in addition to mokujin every time?  Yeah, im pretty sure he's going to run out of chakra




Bluenote said:


> Prime Kyuubi's bijuudama puts out both island level energy AND size.


please oh please show me a scan of ANY of Prime Kurama's bijuudamas coming even close to the power of BM Naruto's super bijuudama.  




Bluenote said:


> I've explained this before. Hashirama can logically use multiple golems with his level of chakra and that lack of chakra consumption that base mokuton requires. Naruto can't logically do anything you say due to his large chakra consumption in bijuu mode.


Except hashirama logically would have the feats to use multiple golems since he's up against 100% Kurama and EMS Madara, yet he has never ever used more than one mokujin at a time, and Naruto logically CAN do waht I say because his modes have never ever ended due to chakra consumption, but due to the imperfect connection between kurama and himself.


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## ueharakk (Aug 4, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Our argument is whether Hashirama can defend against Naruto's Bijuudama. The fact that their fodder is irrelevant because Naruto can't do anything else while charging a Bijuudama. You also seem to be forgetting the fact that Naruto's largest bijuudama has an extremely long charge time AND requires him to sit still and concentrate.


I should neg you again as EVERYTHING you've just said is completely and utterly false.  Naruto can have KCM, base, SM and BM clones running around while he charges a bijuudama all who are free to end a stationary hashirama with FRS, chou oodama rasengans and bijuurasengans.  Naruto's super bijuudama in no way shape or form has a long charge time, he only began *charging his dama after neo pain's dama was fully formed* and ready to fire, yet he still manages to fire it off at the same time they do.




Bluenote said:


> Like you say, a bijuudama destroys everything in it's path, therefore Hashirama did tank that because mokuton fails.


I never EVER said bijuudama destroys everything in its path, I said it destroys any of his base mokutons that aren't called mokuton hobi which is EXACTLY what we see happen in the manga. 
So it's another concession on your part as you are attacking strawmen and ignoring what blatantly happened in the manga.





Bluenote said:


> lolKakashi was aiming for the head both times.


really now?  Did kakashi say "I'll make the juubi's head disappear" or did he say "*this time, i'll make the juubi vanish*"?

concession accepted.



Bluenote said:


> You are exaggerating the power of Kyuubi chakra. Unless you explain to me how Kyuubi chakra can boost Sasuke from a 20 ft Susanoo to a 150+ meter Susanoo.


How about boosting kamui from warping a GM's head to warping a being much MUCH larger than PS?

How about boosting hinata's air palm from deflecting mokuton spears to deflecting the juubi's tentacle across the battlefield?  

Give sasuke's jutsu (susanoo) the same boost, and he goe's from 20ft to 150 meters.




Bluenote said:


> Large Scale Bijuudamas requires a LONG CHARGE time. Hashirama has shown to be able to use 2 Mokuryuu's at the same time, each which are bigger and stronger than Madara's mokuryuu.


1) Super bijuudama in no way requires a long charge time as shown above
2) large scale bijuudamas aren't required when mokuryu gets busted by the mere travelling force of a bijuudama
3) Mokuryu, mokujin and FTW can't withstand the mere blast radius of a bijuudama, so again no super bijuudamas are required
4) Naruto can have clones attack with things like bijuurasengan or FRS either on their own or within his chakra tails if he for some reason decides to charge a super, or decides to just stand there and not end mokuryu with a rapidfire.



Bluenote said:


> If Hashirama was smart(which he is), he would know that Naruto's charge time is the perfect change to go on the offense.


except there isn't an opening for an offensive while Naruto charges a super and Naruto has clones, all who have jutsu that can bust mokuryu and mokujin.




Bluenote said:


> He just needs 5 Bijuu and Base Mokuton. He doesn't need Sage Mode as it completely stomps Naruto.


Based on.... nothing, no arguments naddah.  




Bluenote said:


> The words they and alone are contradicting.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure that Killer Bee helped out.


Lets see, I said that they had no problems against the 5 bijuus which means they both fought the 5 bijuus at a point in time, and then Naruto ended up beating them alone which means at a later point in time, it was just Naruto vs the 5 bijuus in which Naruto defeated them alone.  Is that really too hard for you to grasp?  Actually hold that thought because I don't want to know the answer.


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## Source (Aug 4, 2013)

What? Am I hearing people say the Buddha statue's attacks>Juubi beam? The one that overpowered countless BDs from Naruto and Bee without a hint of slowing down? Naruto's firepower is in a different league than that of Hashirama's, and the Juubi even in it's first form is superior by a massive margin. In BM he tanked that with minimal damage. Naruto could stand there and tank the Buddha statue's punches all day long, it means nothing. One supercharged Bijuu Dama ends Hashi, Sasuke isn't needed. Even a BM FRS cut one of the Juubi's tails, it will freakin' ravage the Buddha statue. Feat-wise, Naruto alone is fairly superior to Hashi, add in a supercharged Sauce and this is hardly "Hashi wins with low diff".

@ueherakk: One thing, PS dwarfs Bee. It's almost 2000m tall (by comparing him to the meteor), Bee is no more than a few hundred meters big. If that's what you meant by a supercharged Kakashi using Kamui on  beings larger than PS. Edit: Ahh, just realized you meant the Juubi. OK then.


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## Chad (Aug 4, 2013)

This guy Ueharrak has got to be the... you know what never mind. There is nothing say to a guy who rage negs when his favorite character gets canonically downplayed. I could walk this guy through some physics, but he will probably just end up raging when I prove that Naruto's strongest bijuudama is just as strong as Kurama's casual bijuudama.


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## ueharakk (Aug 4, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> This guy Ueharrak has got to be the... you know what never mind. There is nothing say to a guy who rage negs when his favorite character gets canonically downplayed. I could walk this guy through some physics, but he will probably just end up raging when I prove that Naruto's strongest bijuudama is just as strong as Kurama's casual bijuudama.



This post pretty much sums up everything you've typed in this thread since it completely misrepresents why I negged you. 

I didn't neg you because you had a different opinion, or because your opinion was one that makes naruto look bad, I negged you because you unwaveringly and continuously misrepresented my arguments, attacked strawmen, catered to very blatant double standards, and ignored portions of the manga that hurt your argument.  I not only gave the reasons for my neg in the neg statement, but I also posted in this very thread the reason why I negged you, yet once again you ignore it and try to deceptively twist it to make it look like I negged because you disagreed with me or because you were downplaying naruto.

You did all of this again after I explicitly called you out on those things.  That's where the neg comes in.  If you actually can support your own stance without catering to any of those dishonest actions, then there would be no reason for me to neg you.



Bluenote said:


> I could walk this guy through some physics, but he will probably just end up raging when I prove that Naruto's strongest bijuudama is just as strong as Kurama's casual bijuudama.


Yet I have conclusively proven that Kurama's casual bijuudama is at most comparable to the ones that the neo pain rikudou were firing as the blast radius of kurama's casual bijuudama was no greater than the blast radius that the damas from neo pain produced.  When i typed this up, what did you do?  You gave no counterargument the only thing you did was show that Bee is much smaller than 100% Kurama, which does absolutely nothing to hurt my argument as my argument already takes that into account.  I even did the work for you and said exactly what you'd have to argue: that Bee is smaller than 100% Kurama's head, something you didn't try to do, and thus you tacitly agreed with my argument that kurama's casual is not stronger than neo pain's.


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## Chad (Aug 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> This post pretty much sums up everything you've typed in this thread since it completely misrepresents why I negged you.
> 
> I didn't neg you because you had a different opinion, or because your opinion was one that makes naruto look bad, I negged you because you unwaveringly and continuously misrepresented my arguments, attacked strawmen, catered to very blatant double standards, and ignored portions of the manga that hurt your argument.
> 
> You did all of this again after I explicitly called you out on those things.  That's where the neg comes in.  If you actually can support your own stance without catering to any of those dishonest actions, then there would be no reason for me to neg you.





I can say the same thing about you. You arguments don't even rebut to mine and the amount of sugarcoating you have in your arguments is ridiculous. 

I will walk this through you step by step so you don't overestimate Nardo anymore.

This is the combined power of Naruto and the 5 bijuu. This explosion required the power of *two *large scaled bijuudama.

Science major  says an explosion needs to have 8 times more energy to become *twice* as large.

From the things I have pointed out, can you figure where I'm getting at? If not, I will leave it in a spoiler.


*Spoiler*: __ 



That means you can divide the size of that large explosion by 8 to determines Naruto's max power. Which is just as large as Kurama's casual bombs.



There you go son. I hope this isn't too much math for your brain.


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## ueharakk (Aug 4, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> I can say the same thing about you. You arguments don't even rebut to mine and the amount of sugarcoating you have in your arguments is ridiculous.


You could say that, but it doesn't make it true.  Which is why if you, I or anyone who wants to fact check what the both of us are saying were to look back at our discussion it would be painfully obvious who's deceitfully attacking strawmen, ignoring their opponents arguments, and ignoring parts of the manga that they don't like.




Bluenote said:


> I will walk this through you step by step so you don't overestimate Nardo anymore.
> 
> This is the combined power of Naruto and the 5 bijuu. This explosion required the power of *two *large scaled bijuudama.
> 
> ...




Wow just wow.  This is conclusive proof to anyone reading our arguments that you probably significantly lack reading comprehension, or how deceitfully dishonest you are and are willing to stoop to in order to push your agenda.  If it's the former, then I apologize for my rudeness, if it's the later, then I would once again encourage you to debate honestly.

You stated that an explosion that's twice as large as another requires 8 times more energy to become that large correct?  That means that you could make an explosion half as large as the one we saw with only 1/8 the energy used in that attack since multiplying the energy by 8 only doubles the size!  And we KNOW that naruto alone contributed half of the total energy of that blast, thus he's contributing 4/8 of the energy to that blast and thus the power of the dama naruto fired would be as powerful as FOUR EXPLOSIONS WITH HALF THE RADIUS of the one we saw in the manga.

THAT'S the conclusion that your argument leads to and that conclusion completely and compellingly destroys your ridiculous assertion that a casual bijuudama from 100% Kurama = BM NAruto's super bijuudama.

Oh and by the way, since you've ignored and failed to provide a counterargument to MY explanation as to why 100% Kurama's casual bijuudama is not significantly stronger than the bijuudamas that neo pain were firing, then by the rules of debate you would CONCEDE that argument since an ignored argument is a conceded one.

But just for the lulz and the small glimmer of hope that you might try and address my argument, I'll post it again:


*Spoiler*: __ 




*This is how big the blast radius* of the dama that erased Hashirama's mokuton, it cleared all that area that's surrounded by those mountains and the forest in the foreground.

The *blast radius of neo pain's* were larger than* this area that was cleared by bee's whirlwind.*

So unless the hachibi is only about as big as 100% Kurama's head, then no the blast hashirama survived is in no way larger or more powerful than what naruto deflected.




now I'll say it again, if you don't attack the argument or underlying assertions/assumptions that are necessary for my argument to be true, then it follows that you agree with my argument and thus tacitly concede the point.


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## ueharakk (Aug 4, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> :ignoramus
> 
> 
> The amount of Nardo sugarcoating this niqqa does is ridiculous. He probably thinks Naruto is a good character too.
> ...


Hold on a second.  Are you asserting that even though Naruto fired a bijuudama of the exact same size as neo pain, and neither bijuudamas overpowered the other, yet went straight up, that Naruto's bijuudama was for some reason WEAKER than neo pain's bijuudama?  If so, then would you please defend those assertions with an argument?  



Bluenote said:


> He still ignores the fact that Kurama's Bijuudama completely covered Mokuton no Hobi, yet it came out unscathed, and he still tries to argue that Nardo's bijuudama would incinerate Mokuton no Hobi because he thinks that "size is the only thing that determines the power of an explosion".



Lets see what ueharakk says about bijuudama vs mokuton hobi:

*Spoiler*: __ 





ueharakk said:


> I never EVER said bijuudama destroys everything in its path, I said *it destroys any of his base mokutons that aren't called mokuton hobi* which is EXACTLY what we see happen in the manga.
> So it's another concession on your part as you are attacking strawmen and ignoring what blatantly happened in the manga.







So once again, your ridiculous and blatant attempts at deceit and lies are exposed for everyone to see.  Concession accepted as attacking a strawman means you have no counter for the actual argument.



Bluenote said:


> Keep on sugarcoating, wanking, and debating with lack of honesty and keep on defying real life sciences and manga facts to Naruto, because it's not going to help you in your future debates.
> 
> By the way, another manga fact is that Madara soloed Naruto, Might Gai and Killer Bee all at once with only base mokuton. Naruto only got out of it because Madara reverted his attention away. That's a manga fact that you cannot deny, scrub.
> 
> If this guy was intelligent in the least, I would reply to him with science facts. But since he's proven that he can't even take in beginner physics, I have nothing more to say to an ignoramus.


 so none of this has anything at all to do with the last post where I showed you how your numbers logic completely and utterly destroys your own argument and that the blast radius of the bijuudamas that neo pain were firing were no weaker or smaller than the bijuudama that 100% Kurama casually used.  What happened to multi-quoting my posts so that we could see EXACTLY what point you are responding to?  What happened to your assertion that if 8 times more power = 2 times the size of explosion, then Naruto's bijuudama was only 1/8 the size of the explosion we saw against neo pain?  I'll tell you what happened, your tasteless attempts at dishonesty were exposed and you were forced to shut up and go back to attacking strawmen like claiming I said bijuudama incinerates mokuton hobi.

THankyou bluenote, as you've given NF conclusive and overwhelming proof that you're posts are completely motivated by personal biased and that you will relentlessly and without shame stoop to any level of dishonesty whether it be strawmanning, ignoring manga scans, and straight up lieing in order to put something on a thread and call it a counterargument.

I accept your concession on this thread until you decide to go ahead and respond to what I actually type in my posts.


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## Jak N Blak (Aug 5, 2013)

Bluenote. Wtf

The AoE of Full Kurama's TBB has been presented. And it is pretty even to the ones Neo Pain fired.

Why are you making this complicated?


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## Raiken (Aug 5, 2013)

EMS Sasuke with Chakra Transfer, probably puts him slightly below VotE EMS Madara level w/o Kyuubi.
That plus KCM2/Bijuu Mode Naruto.

Naruto and Sasuke win, medium-high difficulty.
Without Chakra Transfer, it's pretty even. Hashirama wins extreme difficulty.


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## Source (Aug 8, 2013)

Bluenote, that is *not* Naruto's strongest BD. It's a fraction of his power. It was implied Naruto used just about enough power to match the Bijuu's. His strongest is when his clone contributed to most of a 100km attack (his combo BD with B).


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