# Hashirama vs BM Minato



## Cognitios (Apr 2, 2014)

Location: Valley of the End
Restrictions: Death God Sealing
Distance: 100 Meters
Mindset: IC
Other: Assume Minato has BSM, like Naruto, and Minato is an edo, Hashirama has sealing tags.


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## Kai (Apr 2, 2014)

Hashirama by feats and by a mile in portrayal. The proclaimed "Shinobi no Kami" is the reincarnation of Ashura at the height of his power. 

Minato is simply not on the level of the first VOTE clash, or any clash between the two sons of fate at the greatest expression of their powers.


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## Cognitios (Apr 2, 2014)

I have edited OP to make more balanced.


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## Lurko (Apr 2, 2014)

Hashi still takes this but it's goona be a challenge.


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## Krippy (Apr 2, 2014)

Minato's SM sucks by his own admission,  I doubt it will help his Bijuu form when hes getting the dog shit beat out of him by Shinsuusenju. 

Hashirama mid diff.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 2, 2014)

hashirama destroys minato without a shred of effort.

hashiramas reactions are on par with madara as hashirama equaled him in cqc and even bested him.



madara took out an ftg user in cqc in a matter of seconds.

before people say that minato is physically faster than tobirama, tobirama managed to tag juubi jinchuriki obito before he was mutilated.


minato was unable to react to obito before he took his arm off.


and madara already took out minato in one move anyway, so hashirama does the same with his swords.

hashirama would best minato in cqc, and bind him with the mokuryu and sap his chakra like he did to madara.

minato did not once use ftg while he was in kurama mode. he cannot escape chakra absorption as the shinju managed to absorb all of his chakra before he could even react.

*Spoiler*: __ 








these are the same branches that hashirama reacted to without even looking at them.



hashirama subjugates kurama with his mokuryu. 

*Spoiler*: __ 








base hashirama has shown the ability to create up to 6 mokuton hands at a time. 50% kurama has shown the ability to fire 5 bijudama simultaneously.

*Spoiler*: __ 










all of the bijudama get caught and sent back at minato. sage mode isnt even needed.

to summarize the fight:

-minato enters biju mode.

-if necessary, hashirama counters any bijudama with mokuton hands.

-hashirama uses the mokuryu and subjugates kurama.

-hashirama, who has equivalent reactions to madara whom already bested an ftg user in cqc with superior shown reactions to minato, defeats and binds minato in their cqc encounter like how he did to madara.


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## Trojan (Apr 2, 2014)

Kai said:


> Hashirama by feats and by a mile in portrayal. The proclaimed "Shinobi no Kami" is the reincarnation of Ashura at the height of his power.
> 
> Minato is simply not on the level of the first VOTE clash, or any clash between the two sons of fate at the greatest expression of their powers.




Minato by feats and by a mile in portrayal. The proclaimed "Child of the Prophecy" & "Savior of this World" is the father of the  reincarnation of Ashura (the main character) at the height  of his power. 

Hashirama is simply not on the level of the first obito clash, or any clash between the Juubi's Jins. That's why Hashirama is kneeling as a useless fodder, while Minato is still there helping without even arms.


> hashirama destroys minato without a shred of effort.
> 
> hashiramas reactions are on par with madara as hashirama equaled him in cqc and even bested him.
> 
> ...



Pfff, you're saying Madara + EMS + Rinnegan + SM + Hashi'c cell = Hashi + SM?  


> minato was unable to react to obito before he took his arm off.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




you do realize that this obito is superior to the one who was against Tobi, right? 


> > and madara already took out minato in one move anyway, so hashirama does the same with his swords.


oh God 
you do know that Juubi's host madara is MUCH superior to Hashi in everything, no? 


> > hashirama would best minato in cqc, and bind him with the mokuryu and sap his chakra like he did to madara.



BS. Even A & B who are much better taijutsu users did not do that. 
Good lack catching him with that. lol 


> minato did not once use ftg while he was in kurama mode. he cannot escape chakra absorption as the shinju managed to absorb all of his chakra before he could even react.
> [/SPOILER]


Lol, Hashi's fan pathetic excuses as always, so your saying that you should take out Minato's jutsus so the pathetic Hashirama can land his attacks?  


> these are the same branches that hashirama reacted to without even looking at them.


lol, you do know that Minato was right beside obito, unlike that useless Hashirama, no? 
or would you like to address that Hashi got his ass blown by the 4 TBB, the same ones Minato teleported easily? 


> hashirama subjugates kurama with his mokuryu.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Jin > Bijuu. It funny though how Naruto also destroyed that crap with his speed alone. lol


> base hashirama has shown the ability to create up to 6 mokuton hands at a time. 50% kurama has shown the ability to fire 5 bijudama simultaneously.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Minato has shown the ability to teleport. 



> all of the bijudama get caught and sent back at minato. sage mode isnt even needed.



all of the redirected TBB got redirected again by s/t barrier to Hashi's face. BSM isn't needed. 


> to summarize the fight:
> -minato enters biju mode.
> -if necessary, hashirama counters any bijudama with mokuton hands.


the TBB has Minato chakra so he teleported then to Hashi's face. 


> -hashirama uses the mokuryu and subjugates kurama.


but he is surprised that Minato is much faster than he is, so he failed. 


> -hashirama, who has equivalent reactions to madara whom already bested an ftg user in cqc with superior shown reactions to minato, defeats and binds minato in their cqc encounter like how he did to madara


like the Horse's shit, that Minato was superior to Hashi even in base before they arrive to the battlefield.


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## ARGUS (Apr 3, 2014)

Hashirama wins this mid/high diff

-Hypotectical BSM Minato would be insanely powerful however Hashirama is still the worst matchup for bijuus and jinchuurikis,, due to mokuton techniques that have the ability to subdue their bijuu power,,,, 

-SS has an AOE far too large for Minato to effectively evade without any prep time,,, and will manage to bypass the limits of FTG,,,,,One touch from SS canonically put FULL kyuubi to sleep and immediately supressed its power  unnoticeable  
unnoticeable 
As you can see from the scan Minato cant even afford SS to touch him,, as its offense and defense are larger than his hypothetical BSM,,,

-CK (chojo kobetsu) even after being hit by 11 PS infused TBB,, still managed to destroy PS,,,,its sheer offense is definitely penetrating the kurama avatar,, and damaging Minato heavily here,, as Minatos durability and defenses arrent soo distant and are comparable to Madaras PS
not only that but seeing that even 11 PS infused TBB were tanked by CK,, Minato is not destroying SS at all

-Hashirama can also use his Rashomon Gates to deflect Minatos TBB,,, or his SS can tank them,,, Minato cant simply teleport and try to evade Hashiramas attacks since his AOE can cover the limits of FTG,,and will nullify Minatos arsenal,,, 
Hashirama counters everything in Minatos arsenal,,whereas Minato has no way of overcoming SS at all

-S/T barrier cant do anything to SS as well since its not a thrown projectile but rather a juubi sized statue,,,, 
all it takes is one touch from it,, and minatos BM/BSM power would run out,,, 
not only that but without BM/BSM Minato dooesnt stand much of a chance and he also has the 5 minute or possibly 8 minute time limit which costs him alot here

-Hashirama in SM has reflexes that can react to something even as fast as FTG so even blitzing is not happening,,,

-Even by portrayal, Hashirama is above Minato,,, man being revered as the God of Shinobi,, and the most powerful man of his time,,where shinobi like Madara existed,,,, and was the only one who Madara ever acknowledged,


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2014)

> [=Kifflom!!;50270852]Hashirama wins this mid/high diff
> 
> -Hypotectical BSM Minato would be insanely powerful however Hashirama is still the worst matchup for bijuus and jinchuurikis,, due to mokuton techniques that have the ability to subdue their bijuu power,,,,



The only jin Hashi fought is obito, and guess what happened? 


> -SS has an AOE far too large for Minato to effectively evade without any prep time,,, and will manage to bypass the limits of FTG,,,,,One touch from SS canonically put FULL kyuubi to sleep and immediately supressed its power  unnoticeable


So your saying Hashi's SS is stronger than the Juubi's TBB? Cool story, tell me more. 


> unnoticeable
> As you can see from the scan Minato cant even afford SS to touch him,, as its offense and defense are larger than his hypothetical BSM,,,


the scan is not working. @>@

- but it's not larger than his canon S/T barrier, moving on.


> -CK (chojo kobetsu) even after being hit by 11 PS infused TBB,, still managed to destroy PS,,,,its sheer offense is definitely penetrating the kurama avatar,, and damaging Minato heavily here,, as Minatos durability and defenses arrent soo distant and are comparable to Madaras PS
> not only that but seeing that even 11 PS infused TBB were tanked by CK,, Minato is not destroying SS at all


That's assuming that Minato will fight as if he's madara and won't teleport to avoid that attack
nor will he use his barrier, right? What you overlooked is Minato in fact is not madara and will not fight
as madara fights, so what's your point? 


> -S/T barrier cant do anything to SS as well since its not a thrown projectile but rather a juubi sized statue,,,,


manga scan that state that it has to be a thrown project? I must have missed that chapter, sorry. 



> all it takes is one touch from it,, and minatos BM/BSM power would run out,,,
> not only that but without BM/BSM Minato dooesnt stand much of a chance and he also has the 5 minute or possibly 8 minute time limit which costs him alot here



1- that's cool, so you also assume that its attacks are actually faster than the FTG? 
2- Can you bring the page for Minato's mode time limit?


> -Hashirama in SM has reflexes that can react to something even as fast as FTG so even blitzing is not happening,,,



BS. Hashirama does not have single feats of that. Even base Minato is superior by a HUGE landscape in that regard.


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## Azula (Apr 3, 2014)

Hashirama cannot catch/redirect teleporting bijuudamas with his mokuton constructs

Minato would win


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 3, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Pfff, you're saying Madara + EMS + Rinnegan + SM + Hashi'c cell = Hashi + SM?


listing powers dont mean anything. hashirama is superior to madara. madara has shown nothing from hashiramas sm outside of healing.


*Spoiler*: __ 




you do realize that this obito is superior to the one who was against Tobi, right? 



im aware that obito was finally able to use rikudo power after he gained his mind back. i didnt see him get faster.


> oh God
> you do know that Juubi's host madara is MUCH superior to Hashi in everything, no?


not in reaction speed. i guess you wouldnt be able to show rikudo madaras feats that justify your stance. 



> BS. Even A & B who are much better taijutsu users did not do that.
> Good lack catching him with that. lol


not really. hashirama already bested madara in cqc, who one shotted minato.



> Lol, Hashi's fan pathetic excuses as always, so your saying that you should take out Minato's jutsus so the pathetic Hashirama can land his attacks?


nobody is taking away minatos jutsu. he can use it as much as he wants in base form and kcm.



> lol, you do know that Minato was right beside obito, unlike that useless Hashirama, no?
> or would you like to address that Hashi got his ass blown by the 4 TBB, the same ones Minato teleported easily?


hashiramas mokujin was destroyed by the tbbs that madara wouldnt let hashirama near so he could negate like tobirama implied that he could. just a bit of portrayal for you.



> Jin > Bijuu. It funny though how Naruto also destroyed that crap with his speed alone. lol


thats funny. i remember kurama being subjugated therefore forcing naruto out of kurama mode, but i guess that isnt how naruto fans see it.



> Minato has shown the ability to teleport.


so what?





> all of the redirected TBB got redirected again by s/t barrier to Hashi's face. BSM isn't needed.


the tbbs in the hands of hashiramas mokuton get teleported? nonsense. 



> the TBB has Minato chakra so he teleported then to Hashi's face.


no, it has the kyuubis chakra.


> but he is surprised that Minato is much faster than he is, so he failed.


thats funny. hashirama one shots him in cqc.


> like the Horse's shit, that Minato was superior to Hashi even in base before they arrive to the battlefield.


and thats why madara defeated him with a single staff swing and kick right? he was bested by the man that hashirama defeated in cqc.


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## Kai (Apr 3, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Minato by feats and by a mile in portrayal. The proclaimed "Child of the Prophecy" & "Savior of this World" is the father of the  reincarnation of Ashura (the main character) at the height  of his power.


Minato is not a Child of Prophecy. Jiraiya prematurely believed he was one and was wrong.

You'd have to be completely out of tune with the manga to believe Minato is hyped more than Hashirama in manga portrayal. Unless of course you're trolling, please don't respond with "first among all in ability", "once in a decade genius", "only you can surpass the Fourth", etc. because I'm well aware of all the praise to his name and have seen all the correct translations to them . 



			
				New Folder said:
			
		

> Hashirama is simply not on the level of the first obito clash, or any clash between the Juubi's Jins. That's why Hashirama is kneeling as a useless fodder, while Minato is still there helping without even arms.


Bad Straw man. 

Ashura and Indra (and their successors) at the greatest expression of their powers > Minato.

Ashura/Indra, Hashirama/Madara, Naruto/Sasuke are all decisively more powerful than Minato.


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## ueharakk (Apr 3, 2014)

I think its pretty much settled that Hashirama wins by hype and portrayal.

But by feats, minato has the firepower to take out hashirama's strongest, and has the abilities to make them land.  I can see a good featwise argument made for minato possibly winning.


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2014)

> =Shinobi no Kami;50276278]listing powers dont mean anything. hashirama is superior to madara. madara has shown nothing from hashiramas sm outside of healing.



The heck? 
Madara is superior to Hashirama, and the moment he returned to life he fodderized Hashirama
without even having his eyes. Also, if Hashi is as fast as madara, or has the same reflex as him
please enlighten us how did madara put 4 - 6 black rods on his back? 


> im aware that obito was finally able to use rikudo power after he gained his mind back. i didnt see him get faster.


so you don't even know the basics? 
Naruto  couldn't pass A the first times, but when he controlled his power he did. When achieved BM he became faster. the same with A against Sasuke, when he start using more chakra he became faster than he was at first...etc

unless Hashi become the Juubi's host he aint landing a hit on Minato. 



> not in reaction speed. i guess you wouldnt be able to show rikudo madaras feats that justify your stance.


His feat in reaction to Minato and Tobirama shits on all of Hashi's speed feats. 


> not really. hashirama already bested madara in cqc, who one shotted minato.



lol, except the madara attacked Minato is with the Juubi power, you know?
blind madara fodderized Hashi without the Juubi, SM, and without his Rinngan. 

unless you are so blind and think those power ups did not make madara and stronger/faster 

Not to mention the minato that madara attacked was not in BM to begin with. 


> nobody is taking away minatos jutsu. he can use it as much as he wants in base form and kcm.


Cool, and BM makes his jutsus stronger not the other way around. No where in the manga did state that he can't use his jutsus in BM. 


> hashiramas mokujin was destroyed by the tbbs that madara wouldnt let hashirama near so he could negate like tobirama implied that he could. just a bit of portrayal for you.


I'm honestly not sure what do you mean by all of this!
Hashirama was destroyed with his jutsu as well.  

and about negating stuff, they were inside the barrier and Hashi can't do anything about it, and
if you will take it that way then Minato stated that he will defeat obito as well, whom Hashi admitted inferiority to him. U_U


> thats funny. i remember kurama being subjugated therefore forcing naruto out of kurama mode, but i guess that isnt how naruto fans see it.


 Except Naruto does not have his Father's teleporting jutsus. It is funny that you mentioned the Tree earlier, and did not mention that Minato did teleport from its roots, unlike Naruto who couldn't because he simply does not have teleporting jutsus.



> so what?


So he can teleport and attack Hashi directly as he did to obito, and as Tobirama did with Naruto to obito rather than firing them off straight forward? 


> the tbbs in the hands of hashiramas mokuton get teleported? nonsense.


Nonsense because you said so? 
you do know that Minato can teleport anything has his chakra, right? 
which the TBBs do in this case. 


> no, it has the kyuubis chakra.


 and? 
it's his chakra here, just like how he teleported the entire SA


> thats funny. hashirama one shots him in cqc.


that's funny because unless Hashi is the Juubi's host he is not touching the guy. 
and just how he almost floored A who's better and faster than Hashirama. 
(and by the way madara defeated the Gokage with PS, he was not superior to A with taijutsu )


> and thats why madara defeated him with a single staff swing and kick right? he was bested by the man that hashirama defeated in cqc.



yeah, and that's why blind madara who did not have the Juubi or SM fodderized Hashirama without even touching him?  

no, Hashi got fodderized by far inferior madara, have you ever seen this cute little two pages? 
standing
standing


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2014)

> =Kai;50276368]Minato is not a Child of Prophecy. Jiraiya prematurely believed he was one and was wrong.


Hashirama is not the god of shinobi, they thought that and they were wrong, since Hiruzen the strongest Hokage is the god of shinobi. 


> You'd have to be completely out of tune with the manga to believe Minato is hyped more than Hashirama in manga portrayal. Unless of course you're trolling, please don't respond with "first among all in ability", "once in a decade genius", "only you can surpass the Fourth", etc. because I'm well aware of all the praise to his name and have seen all the correct translations to them .




You'd have to be completely out of tune with the manga to believe Hashirama is hyped more than Minato in manga portrayal. Please to reply with any of Hashi's hype!

What the heck? So you state that Hashi has more hype if you take away Minato's hype? 

No wonder the Sage himself state that he's superior. 


> Bad Straw man.
> Ashura and Indra (and their successors) at the greatest expression of their powers > Minato.
> 
> Ashura/Indra, Hashirama/Madara, Naruto/Sasuke are all decisively more powerful than Minato.



Except this is not true 

guy is a normal guy who can't use nin or gen, nor is he the successor of any of those
yet he's far beyond Hashi's level 

Hiruzen is not like that either, yet he is superior to Hashirama according to the manga. 

so I'm not sure from where you came with that thing being their successor makes you superior automatically when the manga flat out shows otherwise.  
I assume Hashi is also stronger than obito (the host) because he is the successor of Asura?

or perhaps do you mean like when Sasuke fought Danzo he said "I'm Indra's successor, bow before me" in which Danzo get defeated low-difficult?
the same with Naruto who was planning to tell Pain that he's Ashura's successor, and Pain got defeated easily without any help because of that?

or perhaps Hashi told those fodders in the first war about himself, in which they bow down to him and Hashi ended the war rather than getting his
ass handled to him?


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## raizen28 (Apr 3, 2014)

minato forever gimped, sm,bm, too op for correct manga portrayal


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 3, 2014)

This goes the same as it always has when debating this matchup.

Minato warps the Buddha statue away from Hashirama then liquefies him with a Rasengan. 

Hashirama stands no chance against someone who warped a Juubidama.

There's also the fact the statue wouldn't touch him, as on top of his normal shunshin/reaction speed in base (top tier), he now has added BM speed inflation, and with OP's intent Naruto-level (SM) Sensory reactions/shunshin speed, with the added tool of FTG which can be utilized through bunshins or any number of weapon-thrown, ground-touched chakra tagging. 

So, basically, taking BSM Naruto, then adding in Minato's base reaction (V2 Ei perception level) and shunshin speed (casually outpaces Kyuubi) and advanced FTG (tagged clones, tagged weapons, tags placed all over battlefield just out of sheer size of avatar). 

There's generally no way anyone in the verse would hit this variant of Minato with an attack unless he chose to be hit. This includes current Judara and Gai.

I'm confident Hashirama probably wouldn't even be able to defend himself.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 3, 2014)

Hashirama doesn't really have a good way to pin Minato down, and the fact that this is Edo Minato means he can't simply rely on outlasting him. And since this Minato has been granted the same Bijuu+Sage combination mode that Naruto had, Hashi's fighting an uphill battle all the way.

He won't get a chance to use those sealing tags; Bijuu Sage Mode Edo Minato hammers away relentlessly with high-speed attacks and then goes in for the finisher when Hashirama is exhausted. Which, honestly, shouldn't take long, considering what he has to compete with.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 3, 2014)

New Folder said:


> The heck?
> Madara is superior to Hashirama, and the moment he returned to life he fodderized Hashirama
> without even having his eyes. Also, if Hashi is as fast as madara, or has the same reflex as him
> please enlighten us how did madara put 4 - 6 black rods on his back?


dont comment about events when you dont even know what happened. when madara returned to life, he regained his full power as stated by hashirama, then he took down hashirama whom he weakened as an edo tensei.


> so you don't even know the basics?
> Naruto  couldn't pass A the first times, but when he controlled his power he did. When achieved BM he became faster. the same with A against Sasuke, when he start using more chakra he became faster than he was at first...etc


none of what you said is relevant and is just wrong. you also cant prove that you can apply this to obito.


> unless Hashi become the Juubi's host he aint landing a hit on Minato.


he already restrained somebody that one shotted minato.




> His feat in reaction to Minato and Tobirama shits on all of Hashi's speed feats.


by the transitive porperty, hashirama bested madara in cqc, who bested tobirama and minato, therefore hashirama does the same.



> lol, except the madara attacked Minato is with the Juubi power, you know?
> blind madara fodderized Hashi without the Juubi, SM, and without his Rinngan.


no, madara finished off a weakened hashirama. its similar to how kakashi finished off kakuzu.


> unless you are so blind and think those power ups did not make madara and stronger/faster


unless you can show that the powers do what you claim they do, you are just wrong. its that simple. madaras sm is limited to what madara stated that he obtained from it.


> Not to mention the minato that madara attacked was not in BM to begin with.


who cares?


> Cool, and BM makes his jutsus stronger not the other way around. No where in the manga did state that he can't use his jutsus in BM.


im not seeing the scan of minato using ftg in BM. i do see the scans of BM minato being oneshotted by the same branches that hashirama avoids without even looking at though.


> I'm honestly not sure what do you mean by all of this!
> Hashirama was destroyed with his jutsu as well.


show it.


> and about negating stuff, they were inside the barrier and Hashi can't do anything about it, and
> if you will take it that way then Minato stated that he will defeat obito as well, whom Hashi admitted inferiority to him. U_U


if you want to argue portrayal, tobirama called for hashiramas help when the bijudamas were charging. the readers are led to believe that he can deal with them, but madara simply wouldnt let hashirama get by him.


> Except Naruto does not have his Father's teleporting jutsus. It is funny that you mentioned the Tree earlier, and did not mention that Minato did teleport from its roots, unlike Naruto who couldn't because he simply does not have teleporting jutsus.


when was minato shown to have teleported from the roots? he even contradicts this by saying that the branches have sucked up all of his chakra.



> So he can teleport and attack Hashi directly as he did to obito, and as Tobirama did with Naruto to obito rather than firing them off straight forward?


thats why he warped his bijudama onto obito right?


> Nonsense because you said so?
> you do know that Minato can teleport anything has his chakra, right?
> which the TBBs do in this case.


bijudama has kuramas chakra, not minatos. only biju chakra can form *biju*dama


> and?
> it's his chakra here, just like how he teleported the entire SA


minato melded his chakra with narutos, who had established a connection with everyone in the alliance. this is what happens when you dont read the manga.



> that's funny because unless Hashi is the Juubi's host he is not touching the guy.
> and just how he almost floored A who's better and faster than Hashirama.
> (and by the way madara defeated the Gokage with PS, he was not superior to A with taijutsu )






> yeah, and that's why blind madara who did not have the Juubi or SM fodderized Hashirama without even touching him?


madara was beaten as an edo tensei, regained his strength after his revival, then took down a weakened hashirama.


> no, Hashi got fodderized by far inferior madara, have you ever seen this cute little two pages?
> standing
> standing


ive seen them. you are just incapable of interpreting them correctly.


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2014)

> =Shinobi no Kami;50278022]dont comment about events when you dont even know what happened. when madara returned to life, he regained his full power as stated by hashirama, then he took down hashirama whom he weakened as an edo tensei.


I don't care what happened, the black rods won't go there by themselves. It's funny though that is all right if it is for Hashirama. 

- madara is beyond his prime power as stated by kabuto. 


> none of what you said is relevant and is just wrong. you also cant prove that you can apply this to obito.


I see, denial. Moving on. 


> he already restrained somebody that one shotted minato.


yes the same guy who shotted in Hashi's when he was far weaker. Denial ones again.
moving on, clearly you have nothing. 



> by the transitive porperty, hashirama bested madara in cqc, who bested tobirama and minato, therefore hashirama does the same.


BS. madara shotted on Hashirama. 


> no, madara finished off a weakened hashirama. its similar to how kakashi finished off kakuzu.


more denial. Madara shotted in Hashi low difficult without rinnegan, SM, or the Juubi. That's how pathetic Hashirama is. Unlike Minato who only Juubi's hosts were able to land a hit on him.



> unless you can show that the powers do what you claim they do, you are just wrong. its that simple. madaras sm is limited to what madara stated that he obtained from it.


How sad. 
Minato, Hiruzen, and Naruto all mentioned how obito became faster and stronger.
so unless you can prove that the Juubi does not make you're just wrong. It's that simple. 


> who cares?


this thread. 


> im not seeing the scan of minato using ftg in BM. i do see the scans of BM minato being oneshotted by the same branches that hashirama avoids without even looking at though.



I don't see the scan that Hashi touched a guy as fast as Minato. I don see that Hashi got ass handled to him by the TBB that Minato teleported out of easily.


> show it.



go to the chapter he used to them, and try to have some common sense. 


> if you want to argue portrayal, tobirama called for hashiramas help when the bijudamas were charging. the readers are led to believe that he can deal with them, but madara simply wouldnt let hashirama get by him.


So? 
it's still inferior to Minato's statement who said he would defeat obito. Or Naruto who said he would end the entire war by himself...etc 


> when was minato shown to have teleported from the roots? he even contradicts this by saying that the branches have sucked up all of his chakra.


when they catch them, he was showing to be out of them later on with Tobirama. Unlike Naruto.  


> thats why he warped his bijudama onto obito right?


oh dear. 
you also think the seal on Obito was his seal, and not Tobirama's? 


> bijudama has kuramas chakra, not minatos. only biju chakra can form *biju*dama


no, since he is the host, then it's his chakra as well. As C mentioned about Naruto's chakra.
Also, if it is not Minato's chakra he wouldn't have been able to teleport the SA. 


> minato melded his chakra with narutos, who had established a connection with everyone in the alliance. this is what happens when you dont read the manga.


No, Hinata stated otherwise. 



> madara was beaten as an edo tensei, regained his strength after his revival, then took down a weakened hashirama.


Hashi was fighting madara when he was fresh, and Madara who did not have his eyes, SM, or the Juubi fodderized him as a little fodder. Unlike Minato who's still fighting even without arms. 
and Madara needed all those power up to cut the guy's hand unlike when he faced Hashi and shat on him.

It's funny though that you said weakened Hashi, when Minato was weakened even more
since he did not have his other arm, or even his Bijuu. 


> ive seen them. you are just incapable of interpreting them correctly.


There is nothing to incapable them, eyeless, SM-less, Juubi-less madara fodderized Hashirama
with far weaker black rods, than the black orbs.  

yat, Hashi is done for, while Minato is not.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 3, 2014)

New Folder said:


> *I don't care what happened*, the black rods won't go there by themselves. It's funny though that is all right if it is for Hashirama.


the bold is all i need to know that you refuse to listen.


> - madara is beyond his prime power as stated by kabuto.


how is this relevant at all? this was already discredited by madara himself who already gauged his full power at PS.


> I see, denial. Moving on.


so you couldnt prove that what you said is applicable to obito? concession accepted.


> yes the same guy who shotted in Hashi's when he was far weaker. Denial ones again.
> moving on, clearly you have nothing.


you are ignoring context intentionally. this is pathetic. concession accepted.



> BS. madara shotted in Hashirama, stop bullshting.


he one shotted a weakened hashirama, who he lost to and finally was able to finish off after he regained his strength. concession accepted.


> more denial. Madara shotted in Hashi low difficult without rinnegan, SM, or the Juubi. That's how pathetic Hashirama is. Unlike Minato who only Juubi's hosts were able to land a hit on him.


madara lost to hashirama as an edo tensei but weakened him in the process(black rods).


madara was weakened and ready to be sealed.


madaras power was restored after he was revived.

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Hashirama:*_ (Madara is regaining his past strength!)_




which is how he was able to take down a weakened hashirama.


the manga couldnt have made this any simpler. concession accepted.



> How sad.
> Minato, Hiruzen, and Naruto all mentioned how obito became faster and stronger.
> so unless you can prove that the Juubi does not make you're just wrong. It's that simple.


they only talked about how rikudo obito was very strong. stop lying. concession accepted.



> I don't see the scan that Hashi touched a guy as fast as Minato. I don see that Hashi got ass handled to him by the TBB that Minato teleported out of easily.


your point holds no merit since portrayal wise, tobirama implied that hashirama could negate them, but madara wouldnt let him near obitos battle. hashirama wouldnt be able to stop the bijudama from a completely different battlefield.
dishonesty again. concession accepted.



> go to the chapter he used to them, and try to have some common sense.



madara and hashiramas bodies are still intact. madara still has a susano aura up, which means that he wasnt destroyed and hashirama has a partially destroyed tree behind him, which means that he erected something before the bombs went off and the construct wasnt completely destroyed.



> it's still inferior to Minato's statement who said he would defeat obito. Or Naruto who said he would end the entire war by himself...etc


minato stated that he would merely create an opening against an obito that couldnt even control his body. naruto and sasuke would be the ones to land a combined attack on obito.
minato did not once say that he would defeat obito. concession accepted.



> when they catch them, he was showing to be out of them later on with Tobirama. Unlike Naruto.


hiruzen didnt teleport, nor did sakura, hashirama, madara or any of the rookies. you cant prove that minato teleported, especially not when he stated that the branches had sucked up all of his chakra. concession accepted.


> oh dear.
> you also think the seal on Obito was his seal, and not Tobirama's?


i never said that the seal on obito was minatos. it was tobiramas who actually manged to tag obito, unlike minato. if such a tactic were possible, then such a tactic would have been utilized. fanfiction combination like the one you are trying to make arent even remotely implied to be within the characters power in the manga.


> no, since he is the host, then it's his chakra as well. As C mentioned about Naruto's chakra.
> Also, if it is not Minato's chakra he wouldn't have been able to teleport the SA.


minato simply tapped into the link that naruto had established with the alliance members. naruto was simply used as a conduit of some sort.


> No, Hinata stated otherwise.


no she didnt. stop lying.



> Hashi was fighting madara when he was fresh, and Madara who did not have his eyes, SM, or the Juubi fodderized him as a little fodder. Unlike Minato who's still fighting even without arms.
> and Madara needed all those power up to cut the guy's hand unlike when he faced Hashi and shat on him.


you look like you are taking this too seriously. i already disproved this. you are simply hating.



> It's funny though that you said weakened Hashi, when Minato was weakened even more since he did not have his other arm, or even his Bijuu.


minato charged at madara with a rasengan, then got his arm sliced off and kicked away. you cant prove that minato with two arms would have fared better or faced the situation differently.


> There is nothing to incapable them, eyeless, SM-less, Juubi-less madara fodderized Hashirama
> with far weaker black rods, than the black orbs.


this has been disproved already. concession accepted.



> yat, Hashi is done for, while Minato is not.


im not seeing where madara actively went after minato.

at this point, im done responding to your nonsense.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 3, 2014)

> =Shinobi no Kami;50278750]the bold is all i need to know that you refuse to listen.


lol, it's just your bias towards useless Hashirama. You say we have to know what happen and
how that block rods were in his back. But, it does not matter to now what happened and how madara was surrounded by the wooden dragons, as long as Hashi wins.  



> so you couldnt prove that what you said is applicable to obito? concession accepted.


 
lol, no, but because first grad child has the common sense to realize that. 
it was shown again and again how the speed increases when that happens, and I don't
plan to waste my time clearing the obvious for you. Especially that I gave you examples, and statements about obito's speed.  You just value your fan fiction more than what is stated in the manga, which is your own business.  





> you are ignoring context intentionally. this is pathetic. concession accepted.



says the guy who think Hashi is as fast and strong as Juubi's host madara with SM. Which is even beyond pathetic. concession accepted. 


> he one shotted a weakened hashirama, who he lost to and finally was able to finish off after he regained his strength. concession accepted.


and you have the nerves to say pathetic? What kind of ignorant is this? 
who is the one who weakened Hashirama in the first place? 

I don't care about your pathetic excuses for that useless Hashirama, whether you like it or not he got his ass handled to him.  

What even more pathetic than this is is your double standards. So, if eyeless, SM-less, and Juubi-less madara shotted in Hashi, you cry out loud how Hashi is weakened. However, when Rinnegan, SM, and Juubi's host cut one of Minato's arm (who did not have his other arm and/or his Bijuu) you come and say who cares!

Do you have shame at all? 


> he one shotted a weakened hashirama, who he lost to and finally was able to finish off after he regained his strength. concession accepted.



How was Hashi weakened, from something else other than madara? 



> madara lost to hashirama as an edo tensei but weakened him in the process(black rods).



Which is a really good example, of the double standards you use. How great. 

1- Madara putted his black rods on Hashi
You: Don't speak about something you don't know. 

2- Hashi caught madara with the dragons.
you: Hashi defeats madara :WOW

as for the sealing part, which was not Hashi's doing, he can't defeat edo madara without
another one to help him do that part. Not to mention madara was able to destroy those gats Hashi used, but he was waiting for Zetsu.

as for what you said at the end, it does not matter, because madara still shits on Hashi.
which is worst than Minato getting kicked. the manga couldn't make that any more obvious. 



> they only talked about how rikudo obito was very strong. stop lying. concession accepted.



oh, dear, this guy. 
Link removed
Minato:"So fast"
Link removed
Hiruzen: "not only FAST, but tough"
Link removed
Naruto: "Shit, he really is fast!"

how pathetic. 



> your point holds no merit since portrayal wise, tobirama implied that hashirama could negate them, but madara wouldnt let him near obitos battle. hashirama wouldnt be able to stop the bijudama from a completely different battlefield.
> dishonesty again. concession accepted.


you really can't comprehend anything, can you? 

Was I was doing is the same sad excuse you use for your beloved Hashirama. You use such pathetic excuses for him, and then you have the nerves to ask people to do what you dont. For example, you now say Tobirama implied that, then Hashi can do it, end of the debate. 
then, if someone told you that Madara implied they will be erased from the 4 TBBs, but they will return because they are edo (from one of our debates) you cry out loud how is your beloved Hashirama was not destroyed and the one how debates you need to show the scan, as you just told me "show it"

Example of that would be



> madara and hashiramas bodies are still intact. madara still has a susano aura up, which means that he wasnt destroyed and hashirama has a partially destroyed tree behind him, which means that he erected something before the bombs went off and the construct wasnt completely destroyed.



See? You ignorantly act as if you don't know that they are edo and they will regenerate, and ignored what madara stated earlier about what will happen to them. But what can I say, love knows no limit, it's just a blind love. 

Not to mention that it's clear as day that Hashi lost his SM from being fodderized. 

and this so sad double standards of yours. I have to say I'm dumbfounded that you couldn't even comprehend what I was aiming at. 


> minato stated that he would merely create an opening against an obito that couldnt even control his body. naruto and sasuke would be the ones to land a combined attack on obito.
> minato did not once say that he would defeat obito. concession accepted.


huh, speaking of liars




> hiruzen didnt teleport, nor did sakura, hashirama, madara or any of the rookies. you cant prove that minato teleported, especially not when he stated that the branches had sucked up all of his chakra. concession accepted.


Dafuq are you talking about? What does all of those who you mentioned have to do
with Minato in that case? 
Let's just go with you for the sake of the argument, whether Minato teleported himself or not
how does that change that of that Tree exactly? Yes, it does not.
Link removed
and then
Link removed


> i never said that the seal on obito was minatos. it was tobiramas who actually manged to tag obito, unlike minato. if such a tactic were possible, then such a tactic would have been utilized. fanfiction combination like the one you are trying to make arent even remotely implied to be within the characters power in the manga.


lol, Minato can't use Tobirama's seal, and Tobirama can't you Minato's seal. 
you asked why did not he do that and warp it to obito!

The obvious answer is he can't because he does not have a seal on obito, understood? 
so, if Minato used the S/T barrier, he can teleport it to anywhere he has a seal on, which obito did not at that point, what is so hard to understand exactly? 


> minato simply tapped into the link that naruto had established with the alliance members. naruto was simply used as a conduit of some sort.
> 
> no she didnt. stop lying.



oh God. 
apparently, I have to explain everything to you
Link removed
B there said that it's not only the light Kurama's chakra
Link removed
Hinata there state that it's not only Naruto's chakra
and now what C said
Link removed 

you look like you are taking this too seriously. i already disproved this. you are simply hating.



> minato charged at madara with a rasengan, then got his arm sliced off and kicked away. you cant prove that minato with two arms would have fared better or faced the situation differently.


what does that have to do with the point exactly? 
the point is he is weakened, he did not have his other arm, nor was he using his BM. 


> im not seeing where madara actively went after minato.



I'm not seeing where madara actively fight Hashi seriously as well, when he got revived. 


> at this point, im done responding to your nonsense


perhaps this is the best thing you said. Let's just stop here
it's just too horrible to explain to someone how madara with SM, Juubi, and Rinnegan
is different this he is without them. It does not worth it!


----------



## Sabco (Apr 4, 2014)

Hashirama doesn't need hashirama to win this


----------



## Ƶero (Apr 4, 2014)

lol @ Hashi wank and BM Minato underestimation.

Base Minato can stalemate Hashirama. BM can take him. Minato trolls Juubidamas with S/T barrier, Shinsuusenju is inferior to Juubidama and gets warped away to the ocean, Hashi was exhausted after summoning the buddha once he wont be able to summon another one.

BM Cloak + Hiraishin protects him from the sleeping pollen and the wood forest. TBB/ Chakra roar can destroy and clear the mokuton.

Minato is far faster and a bunch of slow wood isnt catching him, so he just has to tag Hashirama, warp away to charge a TBB/ Massive rasengan then warp back and hit him at point blank range. gg Hashirama.

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 4, 2014)

There is no alive Minato with BM, and it isn't possible so I take it this is edo Minato vs Alive Hashi. Hashi takes it in base Extreme Diff. With SM he takes it Mid - High.


----------



## Kai (Apr 4, 2014)

Ƶero said:


> lol @ Hashi wank and BM Minato underestimation.
> 
> Base Minato can stalemate Hashirama.




If lightning struck as often as irony, we'd all be dead.


----------



## Ƶero (Apr 4, 2014)

Kai said:


> If lightning struck as often as irony, we'd all be dead.



Please do tell how Hashirama is catching Minato when Minato's shunshin is confirmed to be faster and he has a Hiraishin better than Tobirama's.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 4, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> There is no alive Minato with BM, and it isn't possible so I take it this is edo Minato vs Alive Hashi. Hashi takes it in base Extreme Diff. With SM he takes it Mid - High.



except hashi does not have sealing jutsu, so defeating an edo is not even in his best dreams.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 4, 2014)

How can Minato have superior instantaneous teleportation to Tobirama ? I think people often interpret that saying quite wrong. 

Also Tobirama with that superior shunshin and fastest handspeed in the manga.


----------



## Jagger (Apr 4, 2014)

Minato's FTG isn't faster than Tobirama's. It's impossible to be faster than that.

The main difference relies on how practical one jutsu is compared to another.


----------



## αce (Apr 4, 2014)

> Please do tell how Hashirama is catching Minato when Minato's shunshin  is confirmed to be faster and he has a Hiraishin better than Tobirama's.



The same way Madara caught Tobirama. Slap his face off when he tries to blind side you. How can a Hiraishin be faster than another hiraishin? It's instantaneous transport and a blind Madara resorted to nothing but his SM senses to avoid it.

And tell me how Minato avoids a flower tree world that turned a desert into a forest? Tell me how Minato avoids that same technique enhanced by sage mode?

He'd literally have to be dozens of miles away from Hashirama in order to avoid a technique of that magnitude.


----------



## αce (Apr 4, 2014)

1. Madara's mokuton is not as good as Hashirama's, so this probably isn't even as good as base Hashirama's
2. Enhance this by the same amount that Naruto's strength got enhanced when he threw a rhino into the fucking ionosphere when Hashirama enters sage mode



yeah
lol
this isn't even a debate
Minato can't fly and he's not teleporting a technique that grows in every direction


----------



## Ƶero (Apr 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> How can Minato have superior instantaneous teleportation to Tobirama ? I think people often interpret that saying quite wrong.
> 
> Also Tobirama with that superior shunshin and fastest handspeed in the manga.





Canon > your fanfiction

I never said Minato's Hiraishin is *faster*. It's impossible to be faster than instant. I said it was *better* in that Minato can warp multiple objects/people and has access to S/T barrier which Tobirama hasn't got. Which further shows Minato's improved proficiency with Hiraishin.



"Did you already do the marking?", "You're quick to act"


lol @ the forest doing anything to Minato when it didnt even do anything to the far slower Gokage. 
Tobirama is not Minato. Just because he got punk'd by Madara doesn't mean Minato will end up the same. Minato reacted to eight gates gai, Tobirama can't do that.

The Hashirama wank is real.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 4, 2014)

αce said:


> 1. Madara's mokuton is not as good as Hashirama's, so this probably isn't even as good as base Hashirama's
> 2. Enhance this by the same amount that Naruto's strength got enhanced when he threw a rhino into the fucking ionosphere when Hashirama enters sage mode
> 
> 
> ...



*AoE of a standard bijuudama.*
*AoE of FTW*
*Roughly how big a bijuu is compared to PS* (bee with his tails spread out should be at least bigger than PS's head).

*1 standard bijuudama = mokujin, mokuryu, and a battlefield of jukai koutan*
*all gone*

Minato can make a bijuudama *at least this big*, with an explosion at least half the volume of *this one.* (Note that those small smouldering craters are larger than the area of madara's FTW.)

He not only should be able to *rapidfire bijuudamas* that have a blast *larger than the juubi with all its tails spread out* *(which still clears most of FTW using PS as the object of comparison)*

But he should also be capable of producing a max bijuudama almost as large as the one that hit GM/V1 juubi, and *made the multi-mountain range crater that the whole juubi/juubi jin battles have taken place within.*

finally, *his avatar is durable enough to take a multi-mountain range buster with just losing 6 tails.*

now remind me how, PIS off, FTW is even a threat to him?  He can jump up and nuke it, he can turtle up and nuke it, he can jump and ftg a nuke into it.  Maybe hashirama's sennin mode version will be too big for his standard bijuudamas to erase, but he still clears* at least this much of it* which is a battlefield-worth of safe area for minato.

Featwise, hashirama isn't doing much against him without shinsuusenjuu as he only had 2 answers for bijuudama: mokujin and hobi.  FTG and rapidfire bijuudama is the answer to jin, and hobi has never taken a direct hit from a dama.  Offensively, Mokujin seems like it would only be useful if it pushes a bijuudama back at him, giant wood arms don't seem to do much considering it takes hundreds of shinsuusenjuu punches to = 11 bijuuPSshurikens going off, and they aren't all that fast if Madara can do a 360 slash before they can even touch the construct.

BTW, I'm not arguing minato wins.  All I'm saying is that at least featwise, FTW, mokujin, mokuryu, and stuff wouldn't be much of a threat to Minato and that he has pretty easy answers for those.


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 4, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the bold is all i need to know that you refuse to listen.
> 
> how is this relevant at all? this was already discredited by madara himself who already gauged his full power at PS.
> 
> ...


 
Bro..... re-read that scan.  Madara obviously could've broke out of those wood dragons with susanoo nothing was stopping him at ALL. Madara just stayed there because he knew he was getting revived and there was no point because look where he is now....  the wood dragons only stopped Preta path, nothing else accept it. Madara never lost, the fight could've obviously went on but Madara's trump card was a catch and grab. 

Quick question, did madara look worried at all while he was hugged up with the wood dragons?? Keep that in mind.


----------



## Ersa (Apr 4, 2014)

Despite how monstrous BM Minato is, I think featwise and portrayal wise (especially with him having Ashura hype) puts Hashirama as the stronger of the two.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 4, 2014)

There is really nothing that Asura ass to Hashi, that won't make Hashi any stronger than what he has already shown. In top of that we have been told that there are some ninja who are stronger than him (e.i Guy, and Hiruzen)

Hashi is only one of the enormous people that Asura possessed at one point. 

anyways, I still believe that Minato's long-named jutsu will change some stuff. lol
although it's too bad for him that Kishi did not show his elemental jutsus or other stuff
and he kept holding him back this entire time. ~.~


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 4, 2014)

New Folder said:


> There is really nothing that Asura ass to Hashi, that won't make Hashi any stronger than what he has already shown. In top of that we have been told that there are some ninja who are stronger than him (e.i Guy, and Hiruzen)
> 
> Hashi is only one of the enormous people that Asura possessed at one point.
> 
> ...



Yeah, those are plot holes. Like why say that he tried to mix rasengan with his chakra nature, but not show one single jutsu?  And yeah, that long named jutsu was showed twice, but it never happened. Just imagine....


----------



## ARGUS (Apr 4, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Hashirama is not the god of shinobi, *they thought that and they were wrong, since Hiruzen the strongest Hokage is the god of shinobi*.


NO. Just no... 
Hashirama is the  god of shinobi and he took away hiruzens title and all of the hype ever since part 2 had started,,, 
kishi might have intended to make hiruzen the strongest at the beginning but right now,, its quite clear that hashi isteh god of shinobi as ppl like Orochimaru, and Suigetsu stated that right in front of hashi who was present with Hiruzen,...
Orochimaru knowing the full potential of hiruzen,,, so even this prime hiruzen hype wont work


----------



## Trojan (Apr 4, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> NO. Just no...
> Hashirama is the  god of shinobi and he took away hiruzens title and all of the hype ever since part 2 had started,,,
> kishi might have intended to make hiruzen the strongest at the beginning but right now,, its quite clear that hashi isteh god of shinobi as ppl like Orochimaru, and Suigetsu stated that right in front of hashi who was present with Hiruzen,...
> Orochimaru knowing the full potential of hiruzen,,, so even this prime hiruzen hype wont work



lol, no. According to the time line Hashirama came first, so he has that title first, and then Hiruzen came and he took the title from Hashirama. Example, is Tobirama faster than Minato because it was stated that he was the fastest by madara latter on after the statement's about Minato? No. 

(Even though I don't believe if someone has the title that means the others can't have the same title)

- No, Kiahi has NEVER EVER stated that Hashi is the strongest. Please provide even one page of kishi stating such thing if it ever existed. 
Also, kishi has proven again and again that the statements from part 1 are true. 

- lol, again, provide any manga page that states "Hashirama is the strongest Hokage"
because unless you can disprove Hiruzen's hype, it's true. You made a statement and you
need proofs.


----------



## ARGUS (Apr 4, 2014)

Ƶero said:


> Please do tell how Hashirama is catching Minato when Minato's



This is how Hashirama catches Minato
* kurama took 25 SM Chou oodama rasengans to the face and underside,*
He catches kurama like a puppy with SS
and then puts it to sleep,,, 
* kurama took 25 SM Chou oodama rasengans to the face and underside,*
regardless,, SS has an AOE far too large with ranges of kilometres something that Minato cant  evade through FTG (without prep) which is why his use of FTG is countered,, not only that but even blitzing is not occurring since with SM,, Hashi would have enhanced reflexes that can aid him in dodging even FTG,,


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## Fiiction (Apr 4, 2014)

Fuck hype. I go by feats. HASHIRAMA > Hiruzen .


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 4, 2014)

New Folder said:


> lol, no. According to the time line Hashirama came first, so he has that title first, and then Hiruzen came and he took the title from Hashirama. Example, is Tobirama faster than Minato because it was stated that he was the fastest by madara latter on after the statement's about Minato? No.
> 
> (Even though I don't believe if someone has the title that means the others can't have the same title)
> 
> ...



Maybe you're right Hiruzen > Minato right?


----------



## Trojan (Apr 4, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> This is how Hashirama catches Minato
> * kurama took 25 SM Chou oodama rasengans to the face and underside,*
> He catches kurama like a puppy with SS
> and then puts it to sleep,,,
> ...



1- Minato can teleport out of that.
2- Kurama in this case is only chakra avatar, how is the chakra going to sleep? 
3- S/T barrier > SS. Unless you think Hashi's SS is stronger than the Juubi's TBB. 
4- No, Minato's base speed and reflex >>>>>>> Hashi's speed and reflex, it's not even close. 
Hashi has no chance of avoiding BM Minato no matter how you look at it, except in fan fiction of course.



Fiiction said:


> Maybe you're right Hiruzen > Minato right?



Yes, Hiruzen is stronger than base/SM Minato as proven by that hype.


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 4, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Yes, Hiruzen is stronger than base/SM Minato as proven by that hype.



even by feats?


----------



## ARGUS (Apr 4, 2014)

New Folder said:


> 1- Minato can teleport out of that.
> 2- Kurama in this case is only chakra avatar, how is the chakra going to sleep?
> 3- S/T barrier > SS. Unless you think Hashi's SS is stronger than the Juubi's TBB.
> 4- No, Minato's base speed and *reflex >>>>>>> Hashi's speed and reflex, it's not even close. *
> *Hashi has no chance of avoiding BM Minato no matter how you look at it, except in fan fiction of cours*e.



1. Not  when Hashirama is suppressing the kyuubis chakra
2. His chakra getting absorbed complletely and Minato running out of his BM means that SS  will nuke him off the planet so yeah,, it does matter
3.how can S/T barrier even work against SS,, its not a projectile,, its a juubi sized statue!!
4.after gaining a portion of Hashiramas SM,, madara was able to react to FTG,,,, yet ur saying that minatos base speed will blitz hashirama,,, u shud read the manga,,, its clearly not happening

He doesnt need to avoid him,,when he can overpower him with SS,, as he already defeated a stronger version of kurama along with PS,,
Minato also has the time limit here,, that is a huge liability for him,,

I really dont wna get into a  big debate here,, since its clear that our debate wont chnage our views


----------



## Trojan (Apr 4, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> even by feats?



No. As we have never seen prime Hiruzen, but we only saw old Hiruzen. 
and kishi stated that Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage konoha has ever had, that how it is 
in the manga. 


Asura, and Indra do not have feats either, we only saw their jutsus avatar, and that's about it.
Actually even that chapter, no one was saying that they are weaker than konohamaro for example
because they did not have any feats at the time!

and again, kishi has never called Hashirama, and I dare any Hashi's fanboy to bring it if it ever exited! I have been challenging them for years now, and they still did not bring such thing,


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## Trojan (Apr 4, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> 1. Not  when Hashirama is suppressing the kyuubis chakra
> 2. His chakra getting absorbed complletely and Minato running out of his BM means that SS  will nuke him off the planet so yeah,, it does matter
> 3.how can S/T barrier even work against SS,, its not a projectile,, its a juubi sized statue!!
> 4.after gaining a portion of Hashiramas SM,, madara was able to react to FTG,,,, yet ur saying that minatos base speed will blitz hashirama,,, u shud read the manga,,, its clearly not happening
> ...



1- he will need to catch the guy first in order to do so, but easier speaking than done. 
2- Again, he needs to catch him, and Hashi has no feats to be faster than FTG. 
3- I literally have asked you to bring proof that it needs to be a projectile every time!!, and guess what?
you have failed to bring such thing *Every Single Time!* Yet you keep spamming that nonsense! 

4- How do you know that it was because of Hashi's SM? 
and let me say this, Minato appeared and disappeared in front 8th-gated guy whose Madara
was not able to avoid not even a single time, yet you're saying Hashi who was outpaced by base Minato will avoid that?  

5- You have still to bring the proof that SS is anti-teleporting jutsus because you have not bring any thing yet by the way. 
as for saying he defeated stronger Kurama with PS, I'm also sure that the S/T barrier dealt with
the Juubi's TBB which is FAR MUCH stronger than Hashi's Buddha, unless you think Hashi's Buddha is actually stronger than the Juubi's TBB as well.  

6- Well, unless you provide some proofs from the manga rather than fan fictions, yeah, I probably won't change my mind.


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## Fiiction (Apr 4, 2014)

New Folder said:


> No. As we have never seen prime Hiruzen, but we only saw old Hiruzen.
> and kishi stated that Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage konoha has ever had, that how it is
> in the manga.
> 
> ...



many characters have hyped up others, doesn't actually mean it's true. That's someone who is a teenager that states Kobe Bryant is the best SG ever, even though there was a Michael Jordan. Many understand Mj is better by feats and stats especially if they've seen them. same goes for iruka you know deep down inside which is stronger of the two. But supposedly statements have more meaning than feats


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## Trojan (Apr 4, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> many characters have hyped up others, doesn't actually mean it's true. That's someone who is a teenager that states Kobe Bryant is the best SG ever, even though there was a Michael Jordan. Many understand Mj is better by feats and stats especially if they've seen them. same goes for iruka you know deep down inside which is stronger of the two. But supposedly statements have more meaning than feats



Well, that what some people were saying about
1- the 8th gate.
2- Shukaku and the priest. 
3- the Sharingan and the Byakugan having the same origin. 

...etc and how kishi does not give a shit about his statements from part 1, and how all of those
were retconed, and guess that? They were wrong in all of those, and kishi has proven himself to be stuck to what he said earlier, in all of those. 

as for feats, not all the characters have the same amount of panels to show their feats. We have never seen Hiruzen in his prime, how do you know that what was stated about his prime is not true, when you haven't seen him?


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## Fiiction (Apr 4, 2014)

New Folder said:


> how do you know that what was stated about his prime is not true, when you haven't seen him?



I can ask you the same thing. But until then, hashirama > Hiruzen by feats.


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## Azula (Apr 5, 2014)

Flower tree world id easily avoided, the kages avoided it by going up in the air and not breathing it in

Minato can summon Gamabunta who can jump to extremely high distances and from there he can spread his markings even further


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## Trojan (Apr 5, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> I can ask you the same thing. But until then, hashirama > Hiruzen by feats.



Well, if you asked my that my answer would be Kishi, the one who decide how powerful the characters are, the author of the manga told us that Hiruzen > Hashirama.


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## Fiiction (Apr 5, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Well, if you asked my that my answer would be Kishi, the one who decide how powerful the characters are, the author of the manga told us that Hiruzen > Hashirama.



He also told us that the only one who could stop Edo Madara was hashirama. 
Hashirama > Hiruzen. Nothing can change my mind (until feats are shown)


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## Trojan (Apr 5, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> He also told us that the only one who could stop Edo Madara was hashirama.
> Hashirama > Hiruzen. Nothing can change my mind (until feats are shown)



Well, no one talked about madara here to begin with. Everyone knows how wrong
A > B > C logic is. 

- I don't plan to change your mind, you're free to think of whatever you want. Though the reality
will stay the same.


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## Veracity (Apr 5, 2014)

Ƶero said:


> Canon > your fanfiction
> 
> I never said Minato's Hiraishin is *faster*. It's impossible to be faster than instant. I said it was *better* in that Minato can warp multiple objects/people and has access to S/T barrier which Tobirama hasn't got. Which further shows Minato's improved proficiency with Hiraishin.
> 
> ...


At the time yes Minato was superior at FTG. Tobirama did not posses FTG lvl 2.

Minato doesn't have better FTG anymore. Tobirama has FTG Lvl 2 and ST barrier so his FTG is on par with Minato's currently.

Also Tobirama commenting an saying Minato is quick to act doesn't mean much... Minato truly is quick to act..

It's also to not that Minato could warp better at the time then Tobirama considering he was Kyuubi linked to all the Shinobi.


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