# Balrogs vs Naruto-verse



## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

Melkors army of Balrogs invades the Naruto-verse

Scenario 1: Balrogs only
Scenario 2: Ungoliant and Sauron joins them


How much destruction would they cause?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

did Wombat do any calcs for them ? 

and how many are there ?


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> did Wombat do any calcs for them ?



IIRC Durins Bane has Small Mountain-level durability from his fight with Gandalf

So thats something atleast



> and how many are there ?



Need me to create a number?

Lets say, 10000?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

10000 small mountain would steamroll *a lot* of shit 

is Juubi allowed ?


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> 10000 small mountain would steamroll *a lot* of shit
> 
> is Juubi allowed ?



For now yes

Might restrict him to Scenario 2 depending on how the thread goes 

Edit: Appearantly Durins Bane was one of the commanders, so not your average Balrog

No 10000xmountain-level then


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## KaiserWombat (Dec 19, 2012)

Ehh, I've only got speed covered for Balrogs so far: anywhere from .

In terms of energy output, your average Balrog should at least exceed  of TNT equivalent.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

and Ungoliant and Sauron ?


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Ehh, I've only got speed covered for Balrogs so far: anywhere from .
> 
> In terms of energy output, your average Balrog should at least exceed  of TNT equivalent.



Thats quite good for a soldier-level Balrog

How much would Gothmog be at, far above Durins Bane?


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

The problem with the Balrogs, Sauron and Ungoliant is not their destructive ability. It's having the powers to kill them.

However, they won't solo the Naruto world if they try and fight them outright.

Guys like Naruto, Orochimaru, Sasuke, Onoki, Obito, Kakashi and Gai are not going to be scared of fighting a demons and have the weapons needed to finish them off.

The destruction they cause depends if they united under Sauron or not. With him, they could take out the world. Since they are all very intelligent, they could probably destroy the Naruto world.

EDIT

Of course they are no soldier level Balrogs. They are powerful demons. You don't get soldier level powerful  demons.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> Sauron?



- Incorporeal
- Shapeshifting into massive beasts
- Weather Manipulation over hundreds of kilometers
- High level telepathy
- No selled a island being dropped on him

Pretty sure there is more which knowledgable LOTR-posters can shed light on (Looking at you Wombat and IWD )


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

do they get dropped off at a random spot in the verse and start wrecking ? that's always a bitch since you gotta mobilize and shit


or standart OBD army vs army 20 paces away ?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

> - Incorporeal
> - High level telepathy


welp 

truly intangible then ?

telepathy include mindrape ?


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> - Incorporeal
> - Shapeshifting into massive beasts
> - Weather Manipulation over hundreds of kilometers
> - High level telepathy
> ...



Thing you are wrong about a few things.

1. Sauron cannot go incorporeal at any point in the story that really matters, because he is evil. Killing him turns him into an impotent spirit.
2. After Numenor, no more shape shifting.
3. He never no sold an island dropping on him. Where did you get this from? He would die instantly.

He has a presence too. Fodder cannot fight Sauron. Fodder cannot approach him. They will just run in fear.

His telepathy is more not mind reading, but more forcing you to do what he wants, but it won't work on anyone strong enough to fight him.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> telepathy include mindrape ?



Ofcourse

Telepathy is his main sthick IIRC


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

mindrape was always the easiest way to solo HST and Juubi hasn't changed that 


it just requires him thinking I presume ? and many targets at once possible ?


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> mindrape was always the easiest way to solo HST and Juubi hasn't changed that
> 
> 
> it just requires him thinking I presume ? and many targets at once possible ?



Sauron is not going to mindrape characters like Naruto or Kakashi or even Bee. He would have a better chance corrupting them, but again this depends on what Sauron we are talking about.

Sauron at his strongest was before he died in Numenor, but even then Ar-pharazon the Golden shamed him and had he had the power to destroy Sauron.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

Didnt set any restrictions on Sauron and Ungoliant

Anything goes


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## feebas_factor (Dec 19, 2012)

Would definitely be interested in seeing some of these calcs for the Balrogs. 


Black Leg Sanji said:


> For now yes
> 
> Might restrict him to Scenario 2 depending on how the thread goes



Yeah you may probably wanna do that. 
They'll have a hard enough time with the Bijuus as it is.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> Yeah you may probably wanna do that.
> They'll have a hard enough time with the Bijuus as it is.



Might add Melkor to deal with him


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

ok, so is someone here truly incorporeal/intangible ?


if not then unless they somehow instantly take out Juubi right away they'd have to deal with the BBs either through massive durability (or real good regen) or massive speed to outrun the explosion

that's pretty much the gist of it

but if yes then how would they even harm said incorporeal


kamui is worth considering maybe .. dimensional shit and all  .. unless that's not a problem 


also:


> do they get dropped off at a random spot in the verse and start wrecking ? that's always a bitch since you gotta mobilize and shit
> 
> 
> or standart OBD army vs army 20 paces away ?





EDIT: Melkor sounds like overkill


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> EDIT: Melkor sounds like overkill


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> EDIT: Melkor sounds like overkill



Yes Melkor at his most powerful is overkill. He is the most powerful thing ever created in the LOTR world. He turned heat into fire, water into ice. He raised up mountains, he caused all evil etc.

He could turn incorporeal at will. He could turn himself into whatever shape he liked, nobody could look into his eyes without being daunted. No point adding him, because he is far far too great.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 19, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> - Incorporeal
> - Shapeshifting into massive beasts
> - Weather Manipulation over hundreds of kilometers
> - High level telepathy
> ...



he didn't exactly no sell it the ring sure did though- Saurons spirit crawled out of the ruin flew off and after a rest built a body that took on mulitiple Superhumans

Sauron can easily mind rape any one in the naruto universe their defense against telepathy is utterly laughable and the vast majority of the main characters are emotionally retarded and should be easily manipulated (since y'know they are in canon)

as to Arednad..the guy thinks Fingolfin can't fight Genin and that Konohamaru can handle top tiers.. dude reads loads of Tolkien but he is a chronic downplayer who has never been able to objectively debate Tolkien against Naruto characters (proven more than a few times including once by willy)

oh and as for Sauron

_'Guards were set at the haven of Morionde in the east of the
land, where the rocks are dark, watching at the king's command
without ceasing for the ships' return. It was night, but there was a
bright Moon. They descried ships far off, and they seemed to be
sailing west at a speed greater than the storm, though there was
little wind. Suddenly the sea became unquiet; it rose until it
became like a mountain, and it rolled upon the land. The ships
were lifted up, and cast far inland, and lay in the fields. Upon that
ship which was cast highest and stood dry upon a hill there was a
man, or one in man's shape, but greater than any even of the race
of Numenor in stature.
'He stood upon the rock  and said: "This is done as a sign of
power. For I am Sauron the mighty, servant of the Strong"
(wherein he spoke darkly). "I have come. Be glad, men of
Numenor, for I will take thy king to be my king, and the world
shall be given into his hand."_

this comes from the same source that has the Numenorians using massive ironclad ships that rip apart reefs and bedrock as they travel through the oceans..and hypersonic arrows and those nice little Greek fire style bombs that have a destructive radius of something like several miles so y'know near hiroshima level destructive capacity

while some argue this never made it into the canon histories or the silmarillion - it's supported by things like Amon Hen and Amon Sul that function like god sats..and other high end tech feats

in any event Sauron causes tidal waves that rip ships off the horizon (hundred or so miles out) and then hurl them onto hills- vessels that again are not wind based 

so you know Juubi what now? 




Black Leg Sanji said:


> Might add Melkor to deal with him



He bitch slaps it tames it and makes it his battle mount


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 19, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> so you know Juubi what now?
> 
> He bitch slaps it tames it and makes it his battle mount



Naruto-verse should be relieved i havent included ANY Valar yet 

And nice quotes, high level LOTR chars gets even more broken the more i read new segments


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

Sauron was IN Numenor actively corrupting the people for decades, but the Faithful resisted him. Amandil, Elendil and Isildur would have been actively criticizing him to his face. Amandil in particular would have been present and many of the councils and would have argued vigorously against Sauron. So Sauron with the One Ring was not having any effect on the Lords of Andunie. Even Ar-pharazon wasn't really mind raped in any sense, but CHOSE to believe Sauron and still had control of his faculties.

Melkor's power is immense and far, far, far too great for the Naruto world. Without the Valar to stop him he would just wipe out everything and leave the world a barren wasteland. By everything I mean literally everthing in a pathetic nihilistic destruction of the world.

Sauron, is not Morgoth. If the Numenoreans had remained faithful they would have thrashed him several times by themselves. Sauron NEVER had the physical power to fight Numenor and only took advantage of their own fall.

Some people may hate Naruto here, but Orochimaru stood in the presence of the Death God. Minato learned how to summon him. Kabuto is a necromancer surpassing even Sauron.

Nor did I ever compare Fingolfiin to Konohamaru, but the likes of Gaara and Kyubi Naruto. Some people are very deluded about Fingolfin and think he is much  more powerful than Elrond and Galadriel. When he simply is not.

As for Numenor's weaponry under Sauron, they probably DID develop some great weapons of mass destruction we do not know about, but certainly not when they first returned to Middle Earth. Despite their great technological advances they would not be using it to create weapons of mass destruction. They very idea would appall most of their earlier kings.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2012)

Seriously, your entire argument can be summed up as an Appeal to Belief Fallacy.

Standing up to a Death God means nothing. Unless reinforced by feats and put into proper context.
There are countless variations for a Death God in fiction with extremely varying abilities and height of power.
Fighting a god means nothing unless we know how strong that "god" really was.

Basically,arednad, you were talking empty air.
That's not a proper debate.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2012)

2 seconds?
Why not 1.2 seconds?
Or 5?

Seriously, for short timeframes like this, random guesses are just plain awful.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> 2 seconds?
> Why not 1.2 seconds?
> Or 5?
> 
> Seriously, for short timeframes like this, random guesses are just plain awful.


I just updated the distance there


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2012)

Doesn't make that calc any more legit in my eyes, though.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

2 seconds timeframe was given in the manga


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Seriously, your entire argument can be summed up as an Appeal to Belief Fallacy.
> 
> Standing up to a Death God means nothing. Unless reinforced by feats and put into proper context.
> There are countless variations for a Death God in fiction with extremely varying abilities and height of power.
> ...


If you knew anything about LOTR, you would understand what the biggest problem with facing an entity like Sauron was. Just like with the Witch King it requires a certain mental strength and will to stand in the presence of a Demon (not that Witch King is a demon). You can have the strongest man in the world, but he must first have the mental strength to stand and resist Sauron.

So the first thing, which matters above anything else is showing that certain characters in Naruto have the mental ability to face ghost and demons without fear. 

This is precisely why someone like Eowyn stood up to and killed the Witch King, whilst stronger and more powerful men ran. 

Only when you have established that Naruto characters have the necessary strength to stand against Sauron then you can start to asses what is needed to kill him.

Now Elendil and Gil-galad were enough to kill Sauron. Elendil was around 7,11 and Gil-galad was about 7ft say. Now Elendil does come from divine ancestry, but it is several possibly over 25 generations down the line. However, Elendil is not stronger than Chouji, nor does he spit oceans like Kisame, or literally destroy cities like Pain.

When it comes to actual battle attacks like C4, Jinton etc are obviously going to kill him. Early gun powder was a great and powerful weapon in LOTR.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> 2 seconds timeframe was given in the manga



You may refresh my obviously hazy memory how Ino's technique works and its relation to the apparent time frame.

Even then telling that it was "given" in the manga is very much stretching it.
Implied is a better world.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> You may refresh my obviously hazy memory how Ino's technique works and its relation to the apparent time frame.
> 
> Even then telling that it was "given" in the manga is very much stretching it.
> Implied is a better world.


pretty sure she flat out said "2 seconds"


Waka explains it all in his calc I linked, I just updated the distance the beam crossed

so best read it or ask him


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 19, 2012)

arednad said:


> Some people may hate Naruto here, but Orochimaru stood in the presence of the Death God. Minato learned how to summon him.



So what?! you act like this means anything



arednad said:


> Kabuto is a necromancer surpassing even Sauron.



bullshit




arednad said:


> Nor did I ever compare Fingolfiin to Konohamaru, but the likes of Gaara and Kyubi Naruto. Some people are very deluded about Fingolfin and think he is much  more powerful than Elrond and Galadriel. When he simply is not.
> .



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrddmtWUHKk[/YOUTUBE]


willyvereb said:


> Basically,arednad, you were talking empty air.
> That's not a proper debate.



Arednad believes we debate the way they debate in the konoha library this has been shown when he used fan theories as evidence in a few debates

the guy fundamentally fails to understand the way we do things here

edit- Arednads last post is blatantly an attempt to further downplay and dismiss lotr feats

his whole "this isn't DnD" is tiresome


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

can someone expand on the mindrape/telepathy feats ? how fast would it happen in battle ?


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> So what?! you act like this means anything


Yes it means that facing the dead is not a problem for high tier Naruto characters.


> bullshit


Kabuto called back the souls of forty dead soldiers. Sauron does not have the power to recall the spirits of me who have died and left the world. 

You randomly quote HOME 5, but it is obvious you have never read the book. If you had you would see why the story was dismissed.
*
This is the story of  the coming  of Sauron  to Numenor  found in  FN II
       $5, which was replaced soon after by a  version in  which the  lifting up
       of the ships by a great wave and the casting of them  far inland  was removed; see pp. 9, 26 - 7.
*

If you knew anything about the text instead of scouring the internet for quotes taken out of context maybe we could have a decent discussion.

This Numenor does not exist, since it was Tolkien decided against it for several reasons.

*Herendil's  words  concerning  what  was  now said  about Earendel,  p. 60);
  the multiplication  of weapons  of war,  the purpose  of which  is concealed
  but  guessed at;  and behind  all the  dreadful figure  of Sauron,  the real
  power,  surveying  the  whole  land  from  the  Mountain  of   Numenor.  The
  teaching of Sauron has led to the invention of ships of metal  that traverse
  the seas without sails, but which are hideous in the eyes of those  who have
  not  abandoned  or  forgotten  Tol-eressea;  to  the  building of  grim for-
  tresses and unlovely towers; and  to missiles  that pass  with a  noise like
  thunder  to  strike  their  targets  many miles  away. *

However, as time goes on Tolkien decides to greatly reduce the technology and power of Numenor. He wants the point to stand, that Men had before their 2nd fall had the power to defeat Sauron.


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## KaiserWombat (Dec 19, 2012)

I will agree with arednad on the topic of necromancy being superior _*in certain categories*_ in the Narutoverse compared to that which is performed on Middle-earth: ultimately, it is the jurisdiction of Eru Illuvatar in determining where the souls of mortals depart to in the afterlife, preventing lesser beings from intervening in Eru's progress through outright resurrection of the dead.

Though honestly, the wraith forms Sauron is capable of conjuring have their own nasty perks: passive auras of terror, non-corporeal immunity to conventional weapons, the ability to perceive both the physical and spiritual realms. Overall though, they're certainly inferior to the "Edo Tensei" regenerative zombie model. High-end wraiths like the Witch-king have their own arsenal of magical spells to compensate.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2012)

how about Ungoliant ?




feats/stats/calcs ?


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> I will agree with arednad on the topic of necromancy being superior _*in certain categories*_ in the Narutoverse compared to that which is performed on Middle-earth: ultimately, it is the jurisdiction of Eru Illuvatar in determining where the souls of mortals depart to in the afterlife, preventing lesser beings from intervening in Eru's progress through outright resurrection of the dead.
> 
> Though honestly, the wraith forms Sauron is capable of conjuring have their own nasty perks: passive auras of terror, non-corporeal immunity to conventional weapons, the ability to perceive both the physical and spiritual realms. Overall though, they're certainly inferior to the "Edo Tensei" regenerative zombie model. High-end wraiths like the Witch-king have their own arsenal of magical spells to compensate.



Of course the Witch King is a great power, but even the Nazgul themselves to quote Tolkien have no great power over those who are not afraid of them.

*"They have no great physical power against the fearless, but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness" *

This is why it is VITAL to see if Naruto characters can stand up against the Nazgul and other wraiths.

Now days it is quite clear that the Nazgul would wreck modern armies, because even the bravest of soldiers would run in terror as soon as they appeared and not be able to fight them.

EDIT

On a greater level this applies even to Sauron and the Balrogs. It is not their physical abilities which are the problem. Even Gandalf as great as he was, would have died when faced with a thousand orcs. 

In purely physical terms two immensely skilled super humans are not enough to kill Sauron. One immensely skilled superhuman is enough to kill a Balrog.

Could go further and name Glaurung the father of the dragons and one of the most powerful.

*His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be.*

The greatest part of the battle is being able to fight against these demons.

Another example is of Huan against Sauron. Now Huan is physically more powerful and stronger than Sauron. However, look what happen when even he sees Sauron. By the way the eyes are the windows of the soul. Spiritual power is expressed through the eyes. 

*So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside.*

Even the great power Luthien has a similar reaction.

*Then Sauron sprung upon Luthien and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath. *

However, Luthien as I said was a great power herself and at the same time did this.

*But even as he came, falling to she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes, and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came before upon him.*


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 19, 2012)

arednad said:


> Yes it means that facing the dead is not a problem for high tier Naruto characters.



So this allows you to magically dismiss the terror auras and stuff?

no it doesn't 



arednad said:


> You randomly quote HOME 5, but it is obvious you have never read the book. If you had you would see why the story was dismissed.
> *
> This is the story of  the coming  of Sauron  to Numenor  found in  FN II
> $5, which was replaced soon after by a  version in  which the  lifting up
> ...



we'd have a good discussion if you weren't ignorant about the works you're trying to downplay and could actually read peoples posts properly

I've caught you lying about this stuff more times than I can count.. (you should by all rights have been infracted long ago..sadly on this forum being a fantard isn't a crime) You know nothing


arednad said:


> This Numenor does not exist, since it was Tolkien decided against it for several reasons.
> 
> *Herendil's  words  concerning  what  was  now said  about Earendel,  p. 60);
> the multiplication  of weapons  of war,  the purpose  of which  is concealed
> ...



and none of this refutes my original point..or post


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> So this allows you to magically dismiss the terror auras and stuff?
> 
> no it doesn't


Not necessarily and I would happily engage in a discussion of whether Naruto characters had the necessary mental strength to stand up to the LOTR demons. I would suggest they do, but would enjoy such a conversation and reading the reasons why they could not. 


> we'd have a good discussion if you weren't ignorant about the works you're trying to downplay and could actually read peoples posts properly
> 
> I've caught you lying about this stuff more times than I can count.. (you should by all rights have been infracted long ago..sadly on this forum being a fantard isn't a crime) You know nothing


I have never lied about LOTR. I have made a couple of mistakes like everyone, but I actually back up my quotes with canon statements and have read the entire story, rather than just looked over the internet for a random quote and taken it out of context.

You find me a quote of Sauron physically being shown to do what Gai can? I would love to see you try and find one.


> and none of this refutes my original point..or post


It does, because Tolkien decided he did not want to go that direction and rewrote it.  Isildur and Anarion did not even exist at that point. Elrond was the first King of Numenor and there was no Elros.  If you had read the story you would see why Tolkien progressed.

That apart EVEN if Tolkien had not greatly decreased the power of the Numenoreans, the Faithful certainly would not have used such weapons. If you had actually read the Shaping of Middle Earth, which you were so keen to quote you would see the progression of his thoughts and why certain things were rejected.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 19, 2012)

arednad said:


> Not necessarily and I would happily engage in a discussion of whether Naruto characters had the necessary mental strength to stand up to the LOTR demons. I would suggest they do, but would enjoy such a conversation and reading the reasons why they could not.



yeah no characters that are almost all suffering from some crippling mental defect vs..Sauron

hah


arednad said:


> I have never lied about LOTR. I have made a couple of mistakes like everyone, but I actually back up my quotes with canon statements and have read the entire story, rather than just looked over the internet for a random quote and taken it out of context.



yes you have- lied and downplayed and you were called on it by a damn mod no less



arednad said:


> You find me a quote of Sauron physically being shown to do what Gai can? I would love to see you try and find one.






arednad said:


> It does, because Tolkien decided he did not want to go that direction and rewrote it.  Isildur and Anarion did not even exist at that point. Elrond was the first King of Numenor and there was no Elros.  If you had read the story you would see why Tolkien progressed.



first of all: Author intent doesn't matter on this forum

second of all: considering the examples that made it into the main novels..do not support you're claim it isn't my problem- this is just you being a troll again




arednad said:


> That apart EVEN if Tolkien had not greatly decreased the power of the Numenoreans, the Faithful certainly would not have used such weapons. If you had actually read the Shaping of Middle Earth, which you were so keen to quote you would see the progression of his thoughts and why certain things were rejected.




again..you completely fail to grasp why this always ends with you looking preposterous


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yeah no characters that are almost all suffering from some crippling mental defect vs..Sauron
> 
> hah


The only person who is looking foolish is you.


> yes you have- lied and downplayed and you were called on it by a damn mod no less


Give me one example/


> first of all: Author intent doesn't matter on this forum
> 
> second of all: considering the examples that made it into the main novels..do not support you're claim it isn't my problem- this is just you being a troll again


I seriously wonder about your comprehension. Early drafts of stories cannot be considered canon, because they were rejected. It would be as foolish as me claiming Sauron was a giant cat.


> again..you completely fail to grasp why this always ends with you looking preposterous


It ends with me providing quotes and showing that you don't really understand what you are talking about. 

I have never seen anyone try and use rejected early drafts as part of their argument. This surely shows you have nothing in the canon to suport your argument. 

Author intent is one thing, but to try and use something he rejected and never released is another thing completely.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 19, 2012)

arednad said:


> The only person who is looking foolish is you.



says the library tard yelled at by a mod for downplaying?



arednad said:


> ]Give me one example/



_Are you serious?_ 



arednad said:


> I seriously wonder about your comprehension. Early drafts of stories cannot be considered canon, because they were rejected. It would be as foolish as me claiming Sauron was a giant cat.



I'm not sure you understand the way things work as far the evidence and standards go any material that is not contradicted by the primary canon (IE ll Tolkien volumes ) is fair game



arednad said:


> It ends with me providing quotes and showing that you don't really understand what you are talking about.



it doesn't get that far..as Willy proved you literally don't have a functioning understanding of what we do here



arednad said:


> I have never seen anyone try and use rejected early drafts as part of their argument. This surely shows you have nothing in the canon to suport your argument.



of course I do



arednad said:


> Author intent is one thing, but to try and use something he rejected and never released is another thing completely.



he rejected what?! Frodo had access to something comparable in visual range to a modern spy sat for all of fifteen seconds at one point in the book and you're telling me higher numenorian tech is not canon?


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## Reddan (Dec 19, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> says the library tard yelled at by a mod for downplaying?


Throwing names around, because you have the argument is the last refuge for those ignorant.


> _Are you serious?_
> I'm not sure you understand the way things work as far the evidence and standards go any material that is not contradicted by the primary canon (IE ll Tolkien volumes ) is fair game
> it doesn't get that far..as Willy proved you literally don't have a functioning understanding of what we do here


LOL. A desperate appeal to authority fallacy. Willy was wrong and I have called him out on his mistakes. 


> he rejected what?! Frodo had access to something comparable in visual range to a modern spy sat for all of fifteen seconds at one point in the book and you're telling me higher numenorian tech is not canon?


Frodo was wearing the One Ring at the time as well. 
Also you as usual failed to read through the entire argument. The Faithful Numenoreans EVEN if they could would not build weapons of mass destruction, since they would consider this evil. 

That apart Kishimoto toned down the technology and straight up rejected panels. He actually goes into detail why he changed his mind and why it was not included. If you had read the entire book you would know, but of course you have not. 

It's hilarious that you looked over the internet for quotes and think you know about something

EDIT

I guess you accept the Numenoreans had planes and Elendil(not called that) drove Sauron into the centre of the Earth. LOL.
Actually read the text before you start discussing things or else you will look foolish.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 19, 2012)

arednad said:


> Throwing names around, because you have the argument is the last refuge for those ignorant.



I'm not sure why you keep saying this stuff when you're entire premise here and in every other Tolkien thread instantly fails because you have no concept of the house standards



arednad said:


> LOL. A desperate appeal to authority fallacy. Willy was wrong and I have called him out on his mistakes.



...nnrrr..good lord you're an idiot

no, no that wasn't what happened at all and you calling him out may very well constitute a bannable offense because he acted in his capacity as a moderator educating you on how we debate here by what standards



arednad said:


> _Frodo was wearing the One Ring at the time as well. _
> Also you as usual failed to read through the entire argument. The Faithful Numenoreans EVEN if they could would not build weapons of mass destruction, since they would consider this evil.



why do you keep bringing up the faithful and their aversion to WMD's as if its some damning piece of evidence when I basically just mentioned in the context of "in this version they were such and such"

[





arednad said:


> That apart *Kishimoto *toned down the technology and straight up rejected panels. He actually goes into detail why he changed his mind and why it was not included. If you had read the entire book you would know, but of course you have not.







arednad said:


> It's hilarious that you looked over the internet for quotes and think you know about something



I own the centenary editions the fiftieth (I think) editions, the millennium editions either a second or third edition printed in 1964 first editions of the silmarillion (and the one printed six years back with all the epic art) and pretty much everything in PDF format so y'know ..try again 

oh and before we get down this road - I don't see anything wrong with hunting down chapters online for the non die hard fans and the average joe poster its a great thing to do. StarDestroyer.net also went into a great deal of effort to calculate and quantify numerous feats..this is an invaluable tool for newbs to use

also they have more credibility then you do and i would encourage anyone getting into this stuff to seek them out before obsessing delving into a very large and tedious mythology 



arednad said:


> EDIT
> 
> I guess you accept the Numenoreans had planes and Elendil(not called that) drove Sauron into the centre of the Earth. LOL.
> Actually read the text before you start discussing things or else you will look foolish.



lie down before you hurt yourself ardy


----------



## Kage no Yume (Dec 19, 2012)

Think I argued in a balrog vs. Kakashi thread once.

My main argument was that a particularly strong balrog was defeated when someone headbutted it with a spear-tipped helmet and pushed it into a fountain.

Kakashi using kamui to remove its head was another option.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 20, 2012)

What no bonus with ents? 
Judging by the current state of Naruto the Balrogs kill mostly everyone aside from the top tiers right away.
I think 40k balrogs ought to do it for the juubi atm?


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> LOL. A desperate appeal to authority fallacy. Willy was wrong and I have called him out on his mistakes.



No you didnt

As he said, being a "god" means nothing unless we know how powerful he is

The Death God didnt have any abilities apart from soul sealing either (No terror/fear aura, mindfuck etc.), so being capable of facing it without fear means nothing


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 20, 2012)

the only "terror aura" I can think of is when Oro literally paralyzed genin Sauce with his killing intent in the FoD .. that doesn't work on stronger characters obviously


no proper mindfuck resistances though


----------



## willyvereb (Dec 20, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ...nnrrr..good lord you're an idiot
> 
> no, no that wasn't what happened at all and you calling him out may very well constitute a bannable offense because he acted in his capacity as a moderator educating you on how we debate here by what standards


 Insulting the mods isn't exactly a bannable offense
Just a very stupid move, given the "power" they wield.
Especially since the actual rules for flaming have rather low limits.
So it's pretty much like committing a robbery in front of a police officer.

Anyways, I like to consider myself as only a common OBD-er with a bit more tools at his use. Which means I treat insults aimed at my self the same as those thrown at others.

arednad's response was provocative and rather uninformed. But that's all.
I can't punish someone for merely being stupid.
Albeit I'm starting to consider some measures against people who refuse to improve.

arednad's main faults can be summed up in two points:
- Incomprehension to even the most basic concepts of battledome debating: Style over substance way of debating. Using low showings as "proof". Thinking a small building level attack has any effect on someone with mountain-level durability. 

- Lack of reading experience: He doesn't appear to have read too many fictions, otherwise he shouldn't be comparing LotR to Naruto. His LotR knowledge seems to be detailed enough but he appears to lack the more comprehensive view that one develops after experiencing many kinds of writings.

Obviously, The first one causes the most problems. Especially since arednad doesn't seems to get these VS debating concepts even after we explain them to him.
He needs to lurk more.
Read more threads about VS battles.
He also needs to do more research about VS debating concepts. Starting with the term "battledomology".
Reading up the OBD Wiki should also be helpful.

@arednad: Even though I wrote the above paragraphs in third person, I meant these to you.

If you wish to be taken seriously here, you'd need to improve.
You're using debating methods that were debunked and frowned upon in the OBD since many years.
It'd be also better if you develop a more objective view on things and avoid hasty generalizations.
Demons, evil spirits and gods in one fiction can be radically different than the ones featured in others, for example.

This is about the best advice I can give to you.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 20, 2012)

I need to know what my main faults are


----------



## Boomy (Dec 20, 2012)

> Insulting the mods isn't exactly a bannable offense
> Just a very stupid move, given the "power" they wield.


Are you Dark Lord of the Sith by any chance?

Darth Willy?


----------



## teddy (Dec 20, 2012)

It's basically like the many incarnations of Death _(since the Death God was mentioned)_. You have Marvel's Death and then there's Discworld's Death. Both personify the same concept, and they're the lesser facets of greater anthropomorphic personifications _(Multi-Death and Azrael respectively)_. But as it stands, there's a substantial amount of power between the two to say the least.

As said before, that standard is applied towards every god and abstract entity within the realm of fiction.

Hope that helps clarifies things a bit.


----------



## TedMk2 (Dec 20, 2012)

? said:


> It's basically like the many incarnations of Death _(since the Death God was mentioned)_. You have Marvel's Death and then there's Discworld's Death. Both personify the same concept, and they're the lesser facets of greater anthropomorphic personifications _(Multi-Death and Azrael respectively)_. But as it stands, there's a substantial amount of power between the two to say the least.
> 
> As said before, that standard is applied towards every god and abstract entity within the realm of fiction.
> 
> Hope that helps clarifies things a bit.


They have drastically different natures, though. You don't need strong mental fortitude to stand in the presence of Discworld Death, for example, most people don't even notice he's there. The people who do notice are more often annoyed than intimidated. He's only ever fearsome when he's angry, but even then you couldn't say he exudes an aura of terror or anything like that. It's entirely situational, so it's a huge stretch to say someone has mental fortitude or let alone mindfuck resistance just by having stood in the presence of a personification of death, especially if it's not specified as being intimidating. Mort was a weak-willed wimp, I'd find it hard to believe that he'd be able to stand up to Sauron just because he fought a pissed off Death.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Dec 20, 2012)

Doesn't sauron have planetary telepathy or something? I'm pretty sure naruto characters can't stand up to that. Max they've done is a very small stadium.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Dec 20, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> how about Ungoliant ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Assisted in destroying the Golden Tree(it's fruit was used used to make the Sun) and Silver Tree(it's fruit was used to make the moon) and was thus amped by on basically god juice from them i.e stomped Melkor(weakened). It can also elude the Valar with it's darkness/webbing. Enough Balrogs were still enough to chase it off though, don't recall the number but personally think it's a case of the eldritch horror jobbing to the Balrogs.

It has been a while though so someone who knows the lore better can correct me. Basically the more Ungoliath ate, the bigger it grew and stronger.


----------



## Reddan (Dec 20, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Insulting the mods isn't exactly a bannable offense
> Just a very stupid move, given the "power" they wield.
> Especially since the actual rules for flaming have rather low limits.
> So it's pretty much like committing a robbery in front of a police officer.
> ...


No I am very aware of how many people like to argue on the battledome. A lot of people twist stories and feats, because others are not aware of them.  It is not an insult to say I pointed out when you made mistakes on LOTR. I have asked for quotes and received none. You guys like to do with feats then provide them. Give me a battle feat from Sauron that compares to anything SM Naruto can do? 

Where is it said the Balrog has mountain level durability? This is purely made up. 

I never said that demons and gods in one fiction are the same as in others. In fact I said this was where the argument should begin. The primary question is whether the Naruto characters have the necessary metal to face a demon. Now this should be where the debate begins.

In the case of the Balrogs and Sauron you then need weapons, with the ability to hurt such creatures. A bullet to the Witch King is not going to kill him, but this does not mean he has bullet level durability, because a small stab from a weak Hobbit such as Merry will kill him. So the next question should be whether Naruto characters have the necessary weapons to kill Sauron.

I have asked for quotes about Sauron's battle abilities and received none. The only quote given was from a long disbanded story called the long lost road involving time travelling, Anglo Saxons and Lombards. A good story and worth reading, but it's not part of the canon.

Now give me feats of Sauron being able to destroy a city in seconds. Give me a feat of Sauron being able to cover mountains in water, because they do not exist.

Sauron's personal fights are here.
1. Fights Huan, shape shifts, but loses the fight.
2. Leads the attack on Eregion, kills Celebrimbor, drives back Elrond. Numenoreans come to reinforce Gil-galad has to retreat and nearly dies.
3. Ar-pharazon the Golden attacks him, his army desert and he is forced to use cunning.
4. Fights Last Alliance and is killed by Gil-galad and Elendil.
5. Runs away from Gandalf in Dol Guldur
6. Feigns a retreat from the White Council and especially Saruman.

So I would like to see where these mountain durability feats are coming from. Or what suggest he is going to survive a 10km explosion.

EDIT

As for the death god not having an aura of fear, I think we need to look again.
Discworld's Death
Discworld's Death

As for Orochimaru he causes fear in even the bravest ninjas.
Discworld's Death
Discworld's Death

This is before we even look at the Kyubi who gave off an even stronger feeling.


----------



## DestinyDestroyer (Dec 20, 2012)




----------



## TedMk2 (Dec 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> Where is it said the Balrog has mountain level durability? This is purely made up.


It's probably from this:





			
				The Two Towers said:
			
		

> I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.





arednad said:


> As for the death god not having an aura of fear, I think we need to look again.
> Discworld's Death
> Discworld's Death


Well I see Orochimaru's a bit unnerved by the prospect of having his soul taken, but I don't see any aura of fear. There's the Death God reaping and consuming the souls its taken and that's about it. Did I miss something?


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 20, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> Did I miss something?



Not at all

arednad is bullshiting like usual


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 20, 2012)

alright, so can Sauron mindrape the bigger threats before they do something ?

yes/no ?


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## Reddan (Dec 20, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> It's probably from this:
> 
> Well I see Orochimaru's a bit unnerved by the prospect of having his soul taken, but I don't see any aura of fear. There's the Death God reaping and consuming the souls its taken and that's about it. Did I miss something?



Where does that even remotely suggest the Balrog has mountain level durability? He is thrown of the top of a mountain and smashes the sides as he dies. Throw an elephant of a cliff and he will do the same thing, but this does not mean the elephant has mountain size durability.

The Gandalf and Durin's Bane is the only proper account we have of a Balrog dying in battle.

Yes there are many other stories, but this was before Tolkien changed his mind about the Balrogs and made them MUCH MUCH more powerful, but fewer in the number. All we know is Glorfindel and Ecthelion remain as Balrog slayers, but the details of the fights are not explained. If I was dishonest and did not care about representing the truth I would use those as examples, but we do not have any other descriptions of how the Balrogs died.

As for Naruto there are many references to the terrible chakra the Biju exude.
Discworld's Death

IF and I do say IF it is established Naruto characters can stand up to LOTR demons then it is crazy to think there is anything in the canon to suggest Balrogs of Sauron could stand up to these sort of attacks.
Discworld's Death
Discworld's Death
Discworld's Death
Discworld's Death
Discworld's Death
Discworld's Death

The Valar have such power to destroy Naruto as do some of the more powerful non corrupted Maiar like Osse or Eonwe or even Arien. These are the great powers. Melkor was greater than all the rest put together, but Morgoth is not Melkor. Though even Morgoth in another world would slowly withdraw his power from Middle Earth and soon become closer to Melkor and too great for anyone in Naruto.


----------



## teddy (Dec 20, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> They have drastically different natures, though. You don't need strong mental fortitude to stand in the presence of Discworld Death, for example, most people don't even notice he's there. The people who do notice are more often annoyed than intimidated. He's only ever fearsome when he's angry, but even then you couldn't say he exudes an aura of terror or anything like that. It's entirely situational, so it's a huge stretch to say someone has mental fortitude or let alone mindfuck resistance just by having stood in the presence of a personification of death, especially if it's not specified as being intimidating. Mort was a weak-willed wimp, I'd find it hard to believe that he'd be able to stand up to Sauron just because he fought a pissed off Death.



Look up.

You missed the point.


----------



## Reddan (Dec 20, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> alright, so can Sauron mindrape the bigger threats before they do something ?
> 
> yes/no ?



This IS something we can argue about and it's the crux of the matter. Since if it came down to a physical battle he would be destroyed once the top tier of Naruto assembled.
Though
1. Sauron's 'mind rape' powers are much more powerful in person.
2. Sauron's 'mind rape' powers more potent when you look into his eyes.
3. Sauron's 'mind rape' failed to work against Amandil, Elendil, Isildur, Anarion etc.

Sauron's 'mind rape' works in two ways. Just plain overpowering people like he did to Saruman and others. However, those with a strong will can resist this. Even Gollum, who has a remarkably strong will, could resist despite torture. So I don't see this working on the likes of Naruto and Kakashi. 

However, he can also use illusions and spells to trick people. These are more dangerous and if he was smart could probably lead to him ruling the world.


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## TedMk2 (Dec 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> Where does that even remotely suggest the Balrog has mountain level durability? He is thrown of the top of a mountain and smashes the sides as he dies. Throw an elephant of a cliff and he will do the same thing, but this does not mean the elephant has mountain size durability.


I think the implication is that the Balrog's body did more damage to the mountain than the mountain did to it, but I could be interpreting it wrong. I'm not particularly endorsing the idea, tbh, just pointing out where it's probably from. As for Naruto, the Bijuu I'll grant have nasty chakra, but I'm still not sure about the Death God, I don't think its chakra is ever mentioned. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


? said:


> Look up.
> 
> You missed the point.


I did?  Care to explain?


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## teddy (Dec 20, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> I did?  Care to explain?



I was supporting willy's statement on the matter that all Death Gods _(or gods in general)_ aren't created equal.


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## TedMk2 (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh. I didn't really pick that up. Never mind then.


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## Reddan (Dec 20, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> I think the implication is that the Balrog's body did more damage to the mountain than the mountain did to it, but I could be interpreting it wrong. I'm not particularly endorsing the idea, tbh, just pointing out where it's probably from. As for Naruto, the Bijuu I'll grant have nasty chakra, but I'm still not sure about the Death God, I don't think its chakra is ever mentioned. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



Even if you thought the text about the Balrog's death was ambiguous in meaning, which I do not, all you need is to read on to clarify what happened. The mountain Celebdil still stands and the dwarves will one day return to Moria. Seriously though, how can you read the book and think the mountain was destroyed? I mean don't you think Galadriel might ask Aragorn why a mountain was suddenly missing.

A real and much greater feat would be how they survived the fall of the Bridge Khazad-dum

I guess it is up to interpretation whether Orochimaru was scared once he saw the Death God or was just scared of his fate. If you look at the chapter he is obviously shaken at the explanation, but he expresses greater shock when he sees it.
Link removed
Link removed
I can see why people would dismiss this, but the Biju certainly have a terrifying presence and chakra as do even some ninjas.



? said:


> I was supporting willy's statement on the matter that all Death Gods aren't created equal _(or gods in general)_ are equal.


The problem is I never ever said all death gods were equal or even gods in general. I was pointing out how the elite ninjas in Naruto can face creatures with terrifying presences and keep on fighting. I said whether they could stand to the LOTR would be a debate.


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## teddy (Dec 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> The problem is I never ever said all death gods were equal or even gods in general. I was pointing out how the elite ninjas in Naruto can face creatures with terrifying presences and keep on fighting. I said whether they could stand to the LOTR would be a debate.



What exactly has their Death God inflicted with its presence alone? Last I checked, its only feat is soul ripping.

Because that's the point behind the statements.


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## Reddan (Dec 20, 2012)

? said:


> What exactly has their Death God inflicted with its presence alone? Last I checked, its only feat is soul ripping.
> 
> Because that's the point behind the statements.



Orochimaru in my opinion was very shaken at seeing the Death God.
Link removed
Orochimaru starts sweating and shaking when the Death God touches him. 

Having no fear of the Death God is particularly important, because fear of death is arguably the biggest theme in Tolkien's work. Legolas does not give a damn about the ghost of men, but even Aragorn is very frightened merely because of what they represent. 

Alone that is not enough, but there there are the Biju and even 'evil' ninjas like Orochimaru and Zabuza has a presence.


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## teddy (Dec 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> Orochimaru in my opinion was very shaken at seeing the Death God.
> Link removed
> Orochimaru starts sweating and shaking when the Death God touches him.
> 
> ...



...

You don't consider that Orochimaru isn't just simply shocked at seeing something like that for the first time? Because from using Occam's razor, that's how it's depicted from the scan you posted. Everything else just looks shaky as hell.


----------



## DestinyDestroyer (Dec 20, 2012)

>Sauron
>can't mind rape Kakashi or Narido

notsureifserious.jpg


----------



## Reddan (Dec 20, 2012)

? said:


> ...
> 
> You don't consider that Orochimaru isn't just simply shocked at seeing something like that for the first time? Because from using Occam's razor, that's how it's depicted from the scan you posted. Everything else just looks shaky as hell.



This is possible, but considering Sarutobi had just explained to him everything about the jutsu it would seem to be more than that.
Link removed
Context is important.

That apart Orochimaru himself has a terrifying presence that causes even legendary ninjas like Kakashi to shake when they face him. 
Then there are the tailed beast too, but the elite ninjas seem to face them and now they are facing the Jubi.

However, I am by no means saying that elite ninjas could face Sauron etc. It is something, which can be argued. Dain seems to glance the Balrog and never wants to enter Moria again. Legolas drops his arrow in fear, though Boromir and Aragorn are prepared to fight it. Arguments can go both ways.

Arguing whether elite ninjas have the strength to kill the Balrogs or Sauron on the other hand is ridiculous, because they are much more destructive.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 20, 2012)

Juubi has no presence actually

it can't even be sensed regularly, only in sage mode


----------



## TedMk2 (Dec 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> Even if you thought the text about the Balrog's death was ambiguous in meaning, which I do not, all you need is to read on to clarify what happened. The mountain Celebdil still stands and the dwarves will one day return to Moria. Seriously though, how can you read the book and think the mountain was destroyed? I mean don't you think Galadriel might ask Aragorn why a mountain was suddenly missing.


It's a tenuous issue, but the Fellowship should have already reached Lothlorien long before the Balrog fell. But it's moot point if Celebdil was proven to remain standing. Maybe the Balrog only damaged part of it, I dunno.


> A real and much greater feat would be how they survived the fall of the Bridge Khazad-dum


I don't think there's a way of working out how far that fall was. We know they fell far below where the dwarves had mined until they reached a place tunneled by creatures even Sauron had no knowledge of because they predate him, but that really doesn't tell us very much.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 20, 2012)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> >Sauron
> >can't mind rape Kakashi or Narido
> 
> notsureifserious.jpg



>Gandalf would get killed against 1000 orcs


----------



## teddy (Dec 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> This is possible, but considering Sarutobi had just explained to him everything about the jutsu it would seem to be more than that.
> Link removed
> *Context is important.*



somuchirony.jpg

He just told that his soul would get dragged out of his body. Of course that would freak him out when he doesn't possess any defenses against it and had to resort to a desperate attack towards Sarutobi himself.

Comprehension is just as important.



> That apart Orochimaru himself has a terrifying presence that causes even legendary ninjas like Kakashi to shake when they face him.



>Orochimaru
>One of the Legendary Sannin

Of course Kakashi would be shitting bricks which would be more from the former's reputation than sheer presence.



> Then there are the tailed beast too, but the elite ninjas seem to face them and now they are facing the Jubi.



>Tailed beasts
>Known for inflicting a massive amount of collateral damage
>Have more concrete showings than the Death God

You're doing far too much reaching here.


----------



## Reddan (Dec 20, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> It's a tenuous issue, but the Fellowship should have already reached Lothlorien long before the Balrog fell. But it's moot point if Celebdil was proven to remain standing. Maybe the Balrog only damaged part of it, I dunno.


I would need to check, but the implication is the Fellowship stay in Lorien for a month. I think when they leave the moon is the same as when they entered, but that is besides the point, because the mountain still stands.


> I don't think there's a way of working out how far that fall was. We know they fell far below where the dwarves had mined until they reached a place tunneled by creatures even Sauron had no knowledge of because they predate him, but that really doesn't tell us very much.


That is a problem, though the creatures predating Sauron does not make much sense, unless we take it to mean that they entered Arda before him or more likely passed over the Blue Mountains before he did.


To the post above.

The Hobbit is written from Bilbo's point of view and probably wrong about a lot of things. Yet it strongly implies that the hundreds of orcs with their wolves were going to be the end for Gandalf, though he would kill a great many of them.

No I am not doing reaching about the presence of the tailed beast. Rather you are deliberately ignoring the panels to suit your own point of view now. 

It is quite clear that Orochimaru has a presence going way beyond his reputation and if you had bothered to look at the other links you would know this. I have provided several already, but here are a few more.
Link removed
Link removed

In the case of Kakashi, he was fully prepared to face Orochimaru knowing his reputation, but only when he faced him did he begin to feel fear.

As for the Kyubi there are so many direct statements.
Link removed

The emotionless Sai, shaking.
Link removed


----------



## teddy (Dec 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> No I am not doing reaching about the presence of the tailed beast. Rather you are deliberately ignoring the panels to suit your own point of view now.



Yes, you're reaching. It's quite clear that you're interpreting every single moment of someone shitting their pants as a sign that their presence invokes some Lovecraftian effect. 



> It is quite clear that Orochimaru has a presence going way beyond his reputation and if you had bothered to look at the other links you would know this. I have provided several already, but here are a few more.
> Link removed
> Link removed



>First scan
>Man can tell something is off about him
>Big whoop

>Second scan
>Orochimaru notably "flexing his muscles"

Stop debating like you're in the library.



> In the case of Kakashi, he was fully prepared to face Orochimaru knowing his reputation, but only when he faced him did he begin to feel fear.



That's called being aware of just how outclassed you are and being unsure if your preparations are enough to pull you through.



> As for the Kyubi there are so many direct statements.
> Link removed



What is this even supposed to prove?



> The emotionless Sai, shaking.
> Link removed



_"sfx: shaking"_

Seems like it's talking about the environment itself as opposed to Sai. Either way, he's witnessing first hand a glimpse of what kind of power Naruto has within his body.


----------



## tashtin (Dec 20, 2012)

lotr rapes



Fluttershy said:


> can someone expand on the mindrape/telepathy feats ? how fast would it happen in battle ?



instantaneous going by saurons fight with finrod. unless you can resist him by 'magical' means you're pretty fucked



TedMk2 said:


> You don't need strong mental fortitude to stand in the presence of Discworld Death, for example, most people don't even notice he's there. The people who do notice are more often annoyed than intimidated..



discworld death has invoked nothing but fear in everyone he has encountered. if anyone has shown annoyance its at the fact that they were/ are dead...



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Doesn't sauron have planetary telepathy or something?



not planetary, island level at most. he was able to detect finrod and company from his island tol-in-gaurhoth. mentally engage finrod and beat him.



*Spoiler*: __ 



He chanted a song of wizardry,
  Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
  Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
  Then sudden Felagund there swaying
  sang in answer a song of staying,
  Resisting, battling against power,
  Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
  And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
  Of changing and of shifting shape,
  Of snares eluded, broken traps,
  The prison opening, the chain that snaps,
    Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
  Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
  The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
  And all the magic and might he brought,
  Of Elvenesse into his words.
  Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
  Singing afar in Nargothond,
  The sighing of the sea beyond,
  Beyond the western world, on sand,
  On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
    Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
  In Valinor, the red blood flowing
  Beside the sea, where the Noldor slew
  The Foamriders, and stealing drew
  Their white ships with their white sails
  From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
  The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
  The ice mutters in the mouths of the sea.
  The captives sad in Angband mourn,
  Thunder rumbles, the fires burn-
  And Finrod fell before the throne.







Tranquil Fury said:


> Ungoliant



pretty much bang on, though in some texts it was crawling over a mountain range, and the 'smog' it created could not be pierced by any of the valar or light... think more in line with a gaseous black hole


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 20, 2012)

good excerpt

thanks


----------



## Reddan (Dec 20, 2012)

? said:


> Yes, you're reaching. It's quite clear that you're interpreting every single moment of someone shitting their pants as a sign that their presence invokes some Lovecraftian effect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If debating like I am in the library means using common sense, logic and reason then I cannot change. The progression of the panels are clear. Hiruzen informs Orochimaru of what he plans to do, which causes Orochimaru to become afraid and start to sweat. Then upon seeing the actual Death God his fear increases as can be seen from his face. 


> That's called being aware of just how outclassed you are and being unsure if your preparations are enough to pull you through.


Now you are the one who is reaching. Kakashi did not go to fight Orochimaru. He went to seal up the CS. It is only when Orochimaru appears does he decide to challenge him. He never backs down, but he is terrified and after Orochimaru leaves thinks about how crazy he was. 


> What is this even supposed to prove?


What do you think?


> _"sfx: shaking"_
> 
> Seems like it's talking about the environment itself as opposed to Sai. Either way, he's witnessing first hand a glimpse of what kind of power Naruto has within his body.


No it is talking about Sai, who is shaking.

If that is not enough then there is much, much more.
here
here
here
here
here

The Biju have a terrifying presence. As do ordinary evil ninjas.

EDIT
The Finrod song is not exactly the whole truth of what happened is it? 

Finrod and his companions are trying to sneak through his land dressed as orcs. Sauron notices that they have not reported and then uses a spell to try and remove any disguise. Finrod notices Sauron's spell and begins a counter spell to keep the disguise. In the end Sauron wins and Finrod is revealed as a great elf lord.

However, Sauron still cannot break Finrod or find out who he is and why he is there fore. Finrod and all his companions resist Sauron's attempts to break them. So Sauron sends a werewolf to kill one of the companions every night. In the end only Finrod and Beren are left and Finrod in a rage breaks out of the chains and fights the werewolf to death using his teeth and nails.

That apart the Tale of Tinuveil had to be reworked and was reworked.


----------



## Cromer (Dec 20, 2012)

Did someone actually make a comment to the effect that the Narutoverse loses scenario 1 yet? By comment I mean an argument, cogent or not.


----------



## U mad bro (Dec 20, 2012)

Yep when you are looking at lotr vs Naruto thread that is the moment  when you know your are truly a nerd.


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## TedMk2 (Dec 20, 2012)

tashtin said:


> discworld death has invoked nothing but fear in everyone he has encountered. if anyone has shown annoyance its at the fact that they were/ are dead...


Except for Susan...and Polly from Monstrous Regiment...and Ridcully. And Carrot. And half the people he met in Reaper Man. Even Rincewind despite being a huge coward is more inured and depressed by Death's semi-constant companionship. And then there's all the non-mortal beings like the Auditors who hate him or have a working relationship with him like the rest of the Horsemen. And as you mentioned, the people who meet him after they die are more annoyed or bemused than anything else. So yes, apart from them he invokes nothing but fear. Yeah.


----------



## teddy (Dec 20, 2012)

arednad said:


> If debating like I am in the library means using common sense, logic and reason then I cannot change.



Then leave. Because if you're definition of common sense, logic, and reason means attempting to warp the context of the manga in your favor to apply it to a shaky theory, then you'll be seen as nothing more than a laughing stock.



> The progression of the panels are clear. Hiruzen informs Orochimaru of what he plans to do, which causes Orochimaru to become afraid and start to sweat. Then upon seeing the actual Death God his fear increases as can be seen from his face.



.......

Because he obviously had no defense to getting his soul ripped out of his body, hence him being afraid. 



> Now you are the one who is reaching. Kakashi did not go to fight Orochimaru. He went to seal up the CS. It is only when Orochimaru appears does he decide to challenge him. He never backs down, but he is terrified and after Orochimaru leaves thinks about how crazy he was.



......

And he's still aware of the substantial gap between them and Orochimaru's reputation. Believe it or not, it is possible for people to shit bricks without it having to do with someone exerting "fear" onto them. 



> No it is talking about Sai, who is shaking.



That doesn't seem to be the case from how I see it.



> If that is not enough then there is much, much more.
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



Biju=/=ordinary evil ninja

Don't know why you insist on posting scans of people detecting the evil within their chakra. For that matter, I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time with someone who's made it clear that they're intent on acting dumb and manipulating the "evidence" that's provided.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 21, 2012)

Hey b  thank you for locking Ardy down for me I would post something more substantial right noq but I am at Disney with my neices and nephew and posting on my cell

Lotr side rapes and as b says ardy's debating like a true blue librarytard he's abusing what tolkien lore he knows in a way no true fan would- and his logic is as consistent as a baboon with autism and type II bipolar disorder self medicating with crack- 

Sauron can mind rape

One thing I want to clarify though is balroga don't have mountain level durability- that's not the case unless some new calc was done I highly doubt it

What they are so so heavy a corpse from one can level the side of a mountain top.large enough to have a dwarfish observation like room on it that's massive weight and the fact that not only it but gandalf suevived a mile or so fall suggests a level of power far beyond what gonadz  is claiming 

Tldr- teddy rep you when I get back tashtin you too and someone neg gonad for me

Merry christmas gents


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2012)

how many targets can Sauron mindrape at the same time ?  

I'd assume a bunch, but any numbers ?


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## Estrecca (Dec 21, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> how many targets can Sauron mindrape at the same time ?



He influenced literally everyone in Mordor, down to the slaves around Nurn, and caused the Noldor defenders of Minas Tirith to run away with brown-stained pants.

It is worth noting, however, that depending on the meaning you give the term, Sauron cannot "mind-rape" anyone. Period.

The Barrier of Unwill is something that he cannot get around, which is why he had to spend thirty odd years with assorted tortures in order to learn the location of the One Ring, rather than getting the info straightaway out of Gollum.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2012)

> He influenced literally everyone in Mordor, down to the slaves around Nurn, and caused the Noldor defenders of Minas Tirith to run away with brown-stained pants.


welp 



by mindrape it's usually meant turning mind/brain to mush or at least influencing mentally to such a degree that the target is out out of comission/out of the fight

mind control too


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## Estrecca (Dec 21, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> welp



_For nigh on two years after the Dagor Bragollach the Noldor still
defended the western pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of
Ulmo was in that water, and Minas Tirith withstood the Orcs. But at length,
after the fall of Fingolfin, Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants
of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur, came against
Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion. Sauron was become
now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms,
foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting
what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment. He took
Minas Tirith by assault, for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended
it; and Orodreth was driven out, and fled to Nargothrond. Then Sauron
made it into a watchtower for Morgoth, a stronghold of evil, and a menace;
and the fair isle of Tol Sirion became accursed, and it was called Tol-inGaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves._

I was talking about the "dark cloud of fear" thing.



> by mindrape it's usually meant turning mind/brain to mush or at least influencing mentally to such a degree that the target is out out of comission/out of the fight



*shrugs*

A fundamentally unwilling mind, under Tolkien's meta-physics (meta-physics Sauron is bound to), cannot be forced.

Devil is in the details, though, and what qualifies as a fundamentally unwilling mind is... up for debate.

Check Osanwe-kenta for the relevant details, because otherwise this would have to be a long and involved explanation.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Dec 21, 2012)

I guess for this debate anyone willing to or easy to corrupt could count as a willing mind but yes this thread will basically turn into the defination of what is mindrape.


----------



## Estrecca (Dec 21, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> I guess for this debate anyone willing to or easy to corrupt could count as a willing mind but yes this thread will basically turn into the defination of what is mindrape.



It is a bit complicated, the unwill concept.

If someone can be intimidated, forced (through torture or other means) or deceived into allowing entry in his mind, that's that. Unwill, once surrendered, is gone forever.

However, those who refuse through raw will, sheer mule-headed stubborness or whatever, there is nothing to be done. 

Hence, Sauron was unable to learn the secrets of Finrod Felagund even after he beat him fair and square, had to torture the location of Beren's father out of one of their followers, had to convince the Numenoreans to worship evil rather than just mind control the lot of them, had to torture the One Ring's location out of Gollum and so on. 

It is an Eru enforced restriction and those are a bitch to get around.


----------



## feebas_factor (Dec 21, 2012)

So...
Scenario 1: Juubi nukes. 
Scenario 2: lolmindrape scope/scale debate.

Though either way the Balrogs would generally trounce any village they encounter sans top tiers.


----------



## Reddan (Dec 21, 2012)

Estrecca said:


> _For nigh on two years after the Dagor Bragollach the Noldor still
> defended the western pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of
> Ulmo was in that water, and Minas Tirith withstood the Orcs. But at length,
> after the fall of Fingolfin, Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants
> ...



Good to see someone actually knowledgeable commenting. 

I think you too would agree that  elite Naruto characters have far too much for Sauron or the Balrogs physically.

There is also a similar essay on Morgoth's rings where he goes into the details about thought transference and mind reading.

Though it's interesting to note that even with the torture, Sauron did not actually fully break Gollum. Gollum seems to have had enough will power to still defy Sauron and lie to him about where the Shire lay. As you would expect from the fathers of the fathers of the Hobbits.

As I said if Sauron did a Morgoth and came out stupidly to fight the Naruto world with force, then he and the Balrogs would soon be destroyed. I think the bravest ninjas would have enough to stand up against him.

If Sauron played this smart. Went to one of the more power hungry ninjas like Danzo, Ay or Onoki and corrupted them, gained control of a village and started a world war; then I can see him winning.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 21, 2012)

All I know is anyone implying top tier naruto guya can't be subverted have never read naruto

Forest gump has superior will power to pein and konan and likely the sause as well


----------



## Reddan (Dec 21, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> All I know is anyone implying top tier naruto guya can't be subverted have never read naruto
> 
> Forest gump has superior will power to pein and konan and likely the sause as well



First of all there is a difference between will power and wisdom. Ar-pharazon the Golden had great will power, but little wisdom and was tricked. When Sauron tried the outright might is right approach he was humiliated. Arguing that Sauron could influence guys like Pain is a given. Which is why it depends on how Sauron played it. If he was arrogant and came into trying to rule by fear he would be lose, if he tried to gain an army of ninjas he would win.

That said there are plenty of characters who would outright reject Sauron like Gaara, Kakashi, Minato and even pure strong willed ones like Naruto and Bee would not be swayed.

EDIT
If we are being true to character then Sauron would probably go in first with power and this could be disastrous for him. 

I take it we are talking about Sauron post One Ring, pre fall of  Numenor so he could still take up a fair appearance.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2012)

tbh the actual humans don't really matter here

it's the bijuu/Juubi

granted they don't have mindrape resistance feats either, though Juubi may or may not get a bit of wiggle room on account of being an ancient eldritch primordial planetary progenitor



but when I say mindrape I am thinking of psionics such as Chuck/Luke/GEoM etc. .. these guys don't need to worry about stuff like unwill


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## Reddan (Dec 21, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> tbh the actual humans don't really matter here
> 
> it's the bijuu/Juubi
> 
> granted they don't have mindrape resistance feats either, though Juubi may or may not get a bit of wiggle room on account of being an ancient eldritch primordial planetary progenitor


Yes they do, because virtually all kage level ninjas would hand Sauron and the Balrogs a beating one on one. Considering Sauron only has a handful of Balrogs at his disposal, he would not be taking Leaf, Rock or Lightning if he tried an invasion. Providing the ninjas were able to fight him of course.


> but when I say mindrape I am thinking of psionics such as Chuck/Luke/GEoM etc. .. these guys don't need to worry about stuff like unwill


Tolkien was Catholic and his beliefs still do seep through his work. Mindrape like the psionics do is contrary to Catholic doctrine. He says he never ever tried to deliberately make his work in accordance with Catholic doctrine, but he admits an author's true character will come through in the work.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2012)

> Considering Sauron only has a handful of Balrogs at his disposal


OP said 10000 Balrogs here IIRC


----------



## Reddan (Dec 21, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> OP said 10000 Balrogs here IIRC



LOL.
This was not in the original post and it is clear now that he simply wanted to create a spite thread.

There are only around say 150k-200k ninjas in the world and 99% of them cannot face a Balrog due to the terror.

If we are talking about canon Balrogs and not the disregarded ones from the Lost Tales then he Sauron should win if he attacks the villages one at a time, mainly due to the top ninjas dying of exhaustion.

Morgoth had say 3-7 Balrogs under his command.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2012)

> There are only around say 150k-200k ninjas in the world and 99% of them cannot face a Balrog due to the terror.


that's what the bijuu are for 

with bijuu allowed and Juubi restricted Scenario 1 could be pretty balanced .. maybe, idk




> This was not in the original post


it's in post #3




note, I am personally always talking about a standart 20 paces OBD battle scenario, not where one side is randomly dropped into the verse


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 21, 2012)

> all kage level ninjas would hand Sauron



The Sauron that most likely created the fires which forged the one ring(which can destroy the ring that survived the Fall of Numenor)?The Sauron that was holding his lair together even weakened?The Sauron who is a Maia?The Sauron who is at a level where beings can fight for days after falling from a height like Gandolf the Grey and a Balrog?It took The Fall of Numenor to cripple him and destroy his physical body. 

Any Kage is not doing it so you're going to have to specify which one.


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## Estrecca (Dec 21, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> The Sauron that most likely created the fires which forged the one ring(which can destroy the ring that survived the Fall of Numenor)?



He didn't.



> The Sauron that was holding his lair together even weakened?



A permanent effect linked to the existence of Sauron. The Last Alliance couldn't destroy the foundations of the Dark Tower with Sauron not weakened, but plain gone, because the Ring was still around. 



> The Sauron who is a Maia?



The label of Maia, on its own, means remarkably little, so I suggest to stick to the specifics. Less nonsense that way.



> The Sauron who is at a level where beings can fight for days after falling from a height like Gandolf the Grey and a Balrog?



Sauron was never terribly great in direct physical confrontation.

Got beat by Huan, got almost killed by the Numenoreans a few times, got killed by Gil-Galad (he turned it into a doble-KO, but Aiglos delivered the death blow)... 



> It took The Fall of Numenor to cripple him and destroy his physical body.



A particularly badass dog could have done it, too, which is why Luthien was able to talk Sauron into surrendering to her dominion over the Island of Werewolves.


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## Reddan (Dec 21, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> The Sauron that most likely created the fires which forged the one ring(which can destroy the ring that survived the Fall of Numenor)?The Sauron that was holding his lair together even weakened?The Sauron who is a Maia?The Sauron who is at a level where beings can fight for days after falling from a height like Gandolf the Grey and a Balrog?It took The Fall of Numenor to cripple him and destroy his physical body.
> 
> Any Kage is not doing it so you're going to have to specify which one.



Sauron forged the One Ring in Mount Doom. He did not create the fires and was taking advantage of Morgoth's power. He used Mount Doom, because Morgoth's power was particularly rampant there. 

When was Sauron holding his lair together whilst being weakened? Baradur was broken down, but the foundations remained. 

Yes the Sauron who is a Maia and was killed by a great Elf Lord and  a great Numenorean.

How did it take the Fall of Numenor to cripple him? More like the opposite it took Numenor to fall for him to be able to rule the world.

Do you really think Elendil and Gil-galad compare to any kage? If so you have not been reading the books very carefully. Even Huan would not compare to Gamabunta. Maybe you have not read Naruto, but one of the weakest kages can do this.
THIS!


----------



## Reddan (Dec 21, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> that's what the bijuu are for
> 
> with bijuu allowed and Juubi restricted Scenario 1 could be pretty balanced .. maybe, idk
> 
> ...



If the battle takes place at 20 paces then what chance does Sauron and the Balrogs have? The Biju simply fire 9 bombs at them and wipe out most of the army.
here
Nine attacks that vaporise mountains are going to win this fight, before it's started. 

It does not even matter about the other 99.9% of ninjas.

I cannot provide the scans since they are restricted, but then Madara drops two meteorites on the survivors if there are any.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2012)

> what chance does Sauron and the Balrogs have ?


the aforementioned mindrape ?


and there was something about incorporeal - if he can do that and continue doing his mental stuff (while remaining incorporeal/intangible) then he can't lose since N-verse can't harm someone truly incorporeal


----------



## Reddan (Dec 21, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> the aforementioned mindrape ?


This is an argument, which could be made, though I don't see it really working on the Biju or elite ninjas either. This argument can at least reasonably be made that the ninjas would be too scared to fight, but I cannot see it being applied to the Biju so it hardly changes matters in your scenario of both sides lined up on opposite sides.


> and there was something about incorporeal - if he can do that and continue doing his mental stuff (while remaining incorporeal/intangible) then he can't lose since N-verse can't harm someone truly incorporeal


Well evil Maiar soon lose the ability to go incorporeal. He could shape shift when he fought Huan, but I don't think he could go incorporeal. He certainly could not after forging the One Ring, which was when he was at his strongest. (Considering Tolkien fixed him as the one, all be it by orders, who seems to have personally twisted men into orcs, I seriously doubt he could.) 

Unless you are one of the Valar incorporeal beings have less of an influence over the world, hence why they become corporeal.

EDIT
Flicking through Luthien and Huan threaten him with death (separation of the body and spirit) and claim he would have to return an impotent spirit to be tortured by Morgoth. So I don't think Sauron at any point we see him can go incorporeal.


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## EscapePod (Dec 21, 2012)

Isn't there massive mind crush involved with the Balrogs, and isn't the ino clan the only one with telepathy?


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## feebas_factor (Dec 21, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> note, I am personally always alking about a standart 20 paces OBD battle scenario, not where one side is randomly dropped into the verse


Normally I would assume this is the standard default as well, but I _think_ in this case OP intended it something more along these lines:


arednad said:


> If we are talking about canon Balrogs and not the disregarded ones from the Lost Tales then he Sauron should win if he attacks the villages one at a time, mainly due to the top ninjas dying of exhaustion.


i.e. army dropped in a random location and have opportunity to strategize and invade village tactically one at a time. Which IMHO is more interesting anyway than just nukes or maybe mindrape.


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## La speranza (Dec 21, 2012)

Who said that Juubi  _cares_ at which point of the planet they are?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2012)

> Which IMHO is more interesting anyway than just nukes or maybe mindrape.


much more factors involved as well


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 21, 2012)

arednad said:


> Sauron forged the One Ring in Mount Doom. He did not create the fires and was taking advantage of Morgoth's power. He used Mount Doom, because Morgoth's power was particularly rampant there.
> 
> When was Sauron holding his lair together whilst being weakened? Baradur was broken down, but the foundations remained.
> 
> ...




Your post is circular logic. X character matching Sauron despite his feats means X character is that strong. I'll explain this to you, Sauron survived Numenor collapsing on him albeit crippled from the effect as a spirit and he lost the ability to take fair form despite having become physical again, that's a feat for him, you did not post anything in that link that compares that, no that form of Gara is not doing it. Give firepower comparable to the above mention fall. You want to mention Jinchuuriki or Kage that can do it, make sure they have the H4X or firepower or both needed. Characters like Tsunade are not taking Sauron atleast.

Not to mention that it took Isildur wielding Nasril to cut his ring hand off aka a magical sword, that's a feat for them. Elendil and Gil Galad were killed by Sauron if I remember my lore correctly why do I feel you're being dishonest?Probably because you are. No one had killed Sauron in Numenor when was this?Post the quote.

EDIT You listed atleast one defeat which involved him being weakened.

I should dig up my folders and go through the material again, I'm convinced you're trying to pull a fast one.


----------



## Reddan (Dec 21, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Your post is circular logic. X character matching Sauron despite his feats means X character is that strong. I'll explain this to you, Sauron survived Numenor collapsing on him albeit crippled from the effect as a spirit and he lost the ability to take fair form despite having become physical again, that's a feat for him, you did not post anything in that link that compares that, no that form of Gara is not doing it. Give firepower comparable to the above mention fall. You want to mention Jinchuuriki or Kage that can do it, make sure they have the H4X or firepower or both needed. Characters like Tsunade are not taking Sauron atleast.
> 
> Not to mention that it took Isildur wielding Nasril to cut his ring hand off aka a magical sword, that's a feat for them. Elendil and Gil Galad were killed by Sauron if I remember my lore correctly why do I feel you're being dishonest?Probably because you are. No one had killed Sauron in Numenor when was this?Post the quote.
> 
> ...



Pulling a fast one is what people try to do too much here.

My logic is perfectly sound. I gave you exactly what was needed to defeat Sauron. Huan or Elendil and Gil-galad is enough.

You are under the mistaken assumption that Sauron survived Numenor being destroyed; he did not. I don't know where you got this from, but it is crazy.

Sauron died in Numenor. Even I could die like he did. This would have been the end of him, but the One Ring acted like a sort of Horucrux as you will, to give it a term people here would be familiar with.

So in about 100 years he is able to recreate another body and go and fight the Numenoreans in exile again. Is held up by Anarion, Isildur goes to get help. Elendil and Gil-galad, join forces march down and drive Sauron back to Barudur. Sauron eventually tries to get to Mount Doom. Gil-galad and Elendil give chase. There he has his final combat with them. He kills them both, but dies himself. Isildur comes and takes cuts of his ring. Without the ring it takes him off the top of my head 1500 years to rebuild a body, because though he did not have it in his possession he could still use it's power.

Third time he dies for good and and cannot come back is when Frodo destroys the ring.

That apart Huan defeats him and would have killed him had Luthien not shown him mercy.
Looking at it he does not even seem to be fairing to well against Celebrimbor one on one. Though he wanted him captive and Celembrimbor was desperate. In the end he wins.
Speed forward Numenoreans/Gl-galad come and give him a beating and he has to run literally to save himself from death.
Another time he was close to death is when Ar-pharazon gets mad at Sauron claiming to be King of Men. Lands with a huge fleet, Sauron's army surrender. Sauron decided to use cunning and pretends to sue for peace. Technically he was slightly weaker every time he had to rebuild a body, but it was not really a significant decrease and he was still stronger than he was before he created the ring.

Gaara is overkill against Sauron in a physical fight. He would drop thousands of tons of sand on his head.

EDIT
Only thing I could be wrong about is the dates, but if you want to be pedantic I can give you the exact dates too and just how long it took for him to return.


On the dates; with the ring it took 101 years to rebuild his body.

Without it about a 1000 years.


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 21, 2012)

arednad 

what is the rationale behind your name?

i keep reading it as a red 'nad. a red testicle. and that's weird


----------



## KaiserWombat (Dec 21, 2012)

Lucy, not appropriate to the thread: ask it over VMs instead

Speaking of this thread: we're clearly at a crossing where neither side is going to give way. I'm heavily considering closing it up within the next few minutes due to sheer inefficiency, unless one of the debaters wishes to continue?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2012)

you know Lotr and Naruto


what do you think Wombat ?


----------



## feebas_factor (Dec 21, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Lucy, not appropriate to the thread: ask it over VMs instead
> 
> Speaking of this thread: we're clearly at a crossing where neither side is going to give way. I'm heavily considering closing it up within the next few minutes due to sheer inefficiency, unless one of the debaters wishes to continue?



But I was learning so much Tolkien lore/feats from this thread. 

Maybe if someone wants to analyze/debate the invasion tactics angle more? I'd contribute but I admit my knowledge is limited to only the core LOTR books.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Dec 21, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Lucy, not appropriate to the thread: ask it over VMs instead
> 
> Speaking of this thread: we're clearly at a crossing where neither side is going to give way. I'm heavily considering closing it up within the next few minutes due to sheer inefficiency, unless one of the debaters wishes to continue?



Since i created it i would say close it since noone is budging

But if someone wants to debate more i dont mind it being open

There is a lack of decent threads anyways


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> But I was learning so much Tolkien lore/feats from this thread.


I    concur


----------



## Orochibuto (Dec 21, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> -
> - No selled a island being dropped on him


S
No selled? Thats not true, Sauron was heavily damaged and he lost his shapeshifting after the island, I even remember ImmortalWatchdog had an argument that possibly the Sauro we saw in the trilogy wasnt fully recovered of having Numemor thrown at his face.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 21, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> ultimately, it is the jurisdiction of Eru Illuvatar in determining where the souls of mortals depart to in the afterlife, preventing lesser beings from intervening in Eru's progress through outright resurrection of the dead.



Is it ever said or even hinted what happen to men in LOTR after they die? Because apparently they dont return to the world and leave it forever, and that eventually even the Valar would come to envy the fate of men. I couldnt find anything else though.


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## KaiserWombat (Dec 21, 2012)

Personally, I'm a little conflicted on the platform of the Tolkienverse that is being presented here: on the one hand, I think arednad is taking an overly metaphorical approach to evaluating the powers of the setting and underestimating the prowess of certain characters (Sauron particularly springs to mind: Huan got the initial drop on him thanks to Luthien's hypnotic cloak and there is nothing necessarily to disprove Luthien's involvement in his fight with Wolf-Sauron, and the Elendil/Gil-galad double team almost certainly was not sufficient to take on Sauron, given that both of them died quite quickly in succession of each other from basically a single prolonged touch), while on the other hand, I have to take issue with the assumption of automatic validation of all Tolkienverse materials simultaneously by a couple posters, when quite simply the literary context disproves that notion: as absolutely fascinating as "The Lost Road" account of the Second Age is, it does not correlate very well with the more complete later depictions by Tolkien himself.

@Orochibuto: It's a complete mystery, according to the narrative of "The Silmarillion". Certainly none of the Elven races have the knowledge, and IIRC it's stated that even Mandos (who is the Valar equivalent of Hades, overseer of the Elven afterlife) is uncertain of their fates.

Anyway, I feel I've prolonged life to this thread far more than what was necessary: time to end its misery.


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