# Rider of Red (Fate/Apocrypha) vs Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night Servants



## Contrived (Jul 21, 2015)

Achilles fights the Servants from the 4th and 5th Grail Wars, how does he do?

Scenario 1: No bloodlusted. He goes up against them one at a time

Scenario 2: Everyone is bloodlusted. He goes up against them one at a time.

Scenario 3: Everyone is bloodlusted and it's a Free for All.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 22, 2015)

Gilgamesh wins


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## BreakFlame (Jul 22, 2015)

Contrived said:


> Achilles fights the Servants from the 4th and 5th Grail Wars, how does he do?
> 
> Scenario 1: No bloodlusted. He goes up against them one at a time
> 
> ...



Scenario 1: Gilgamesh kills him slowly

Scenario 2: Gilgamesh kills him instantly

Scenario 3: Gilgamesh blows up the world and then gets drunk.

Seriously, restrict Gil or he ruins the match via being the strongest Servant.


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## MAPSK (Jul 22, 2015)

Gilgamesh shows this cunt how to be the most OP Servant in the War and do it with style.


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## shade0180 (Jul 22, 2015)

Hercules > achilles.


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## BreakFlame (Jul 22, 2015)

By the way, after reading up on Achilles, he has something similar to God Hand, except it operates on Divinity instead of Rank. You have to have C-Rank Divinity to hurt him, or you have to hit his heel. Not a problem for Saber/Lancer/Gilgamesh, who can nuke his whole body at once, or Berserker who is A-Rank Divinity, but it might pose a problem for the others.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

Achilles deploys his duel field and kills the everloving shit out of everyone barring gil, who he can actually take down by virtue of being the fastest fucking hero in the world

and no one barring gil has any answer to Achilles Cosmos barring Gil's Ea

also

>Shittalking achilles
>literally the coolest servant


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> By the way, after reading up on Achilles, he has something similar to God Hand, except it operates on Divinity instead of Rank. You have to have C-Rank Divinity to hurt him, or you have to hit his heel. Not a problem for Saber/Lancer/Gilgamesh, who can nuke his whole body at once, or Berserker who is A-Rank Divinity, but it might pose a problem for the others.


No

Siegfried was going to try that and it's EXPLICITLY fucking noted that Balmung would have been No Sold by Achilles

GUESS WHAT'S SIMILAR TO BALMUNG?

3 chances


Literally the only ones who can do anything to him are Gil and Lancer

and even then Achilles has A-rank Battle continuation and has survived having his heart pierced in his own legend, so even GB might not be enough to put him down.

Berserker gets Duel Fielded right out of the get go since Achilles would 90% know who the hell he is due to hailing from the same lands. God hand is God-given inmortality so that shit gets tossed right out with his own advantages meaning all achilles has to do is get his stab on hard enough to make sure 'serker stays down.


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## shade0180 (Jul 22, 2015)

Wouldn't Berserker be immune to his attack after the first death? 

Also wouldn't mad enhancement be removed once he enter the duel field ability?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

No, because he's cancelling God-hand out entirely

Duel Field removes all outside interference and creates a world where gods have no influence

and no, shade

Mad enhancement still stays because it's a class skill, not a personal skill/outside interference

so

bye bye god hand

Hello stabby stabby


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## Deer Lord (Jul 22, 2015)

Have only read volume 1&2 of apocrypha but i'll give this a go.

Due to Achillie's ability the only servants who can harm him are:
Herakles, Iskander, Gillgamesh and Chu-Culain.
He would no-sell everybody else.

Gillgamesh would beat him everytime. Chu dies before he can use gae bolg.
Iskander isn't a skilled fighter in his own right, he'd lose to achilles.
If we factor in duel field then achilles can beat herakles, though I think it would be 50:50
because herakles still has higher stats, but achilles has better skill.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

I would actually wager that with Comet Form Achilles could actually take down Gil a couple times

He'd lose like 6/10 vs Gil but it's definitely not a hopeless struggle IMO

Achilles is too fucking good at what he does to count him out simply due to compatibility.


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## Sablés (Jul 22, 2015)

How does Achilles' stats compare to Lancer and Berserker's ? Beating out God-Hand doesn't mitigate Heracles' beast status and GB is a bitch for CQC.

And how does he go up against IH?


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## AliceKumo (Jul 22, 2015)

I sense a lot of bias towards Achilles coming from here.


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## Brightsteel (Jul 22, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Achilles deploys his duel field and kills the everloving shit out of everyone barring gil, who he can actually take down by virtue of being the fastest fucking hero in the world
> 
> and no one barring gil has any answer to Achilles Cosmos barring Gil's Ea
> 
> ...



I'd actually argue that Kojiro could at least take some wins against Achilles, should he deploy his duel  field. 

Lancer of Black is the coolest by the way.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 22, 2015)

Liquid said:


> How does Achilles' stats compare to Lancer and Berserker's ? Beating out God-Hand doesn't mitigate Heracles' beast status and GB is a bitch for CQC.
> 
> And how does he go up against IH?


STR=B+
DUR=A
AGI=A+
MGI=C
LUC=D

He outclasses Lancer by a fair bit.
Herc still has an edge in stats, but achillies is a better fighetr.

IH is meaningless against Achillies' invulnerability.
IH summons an army of servants, but none of these servants has divinity, only Iskander does.
Which means only Iskander can harm Achillies, and this is not a fight he can win 1v1.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

There's also the bit where Achilles would actually have a fairly easy time dealing with Herc's "Flail hard until you hit something" style due to his training from Chiron.



> How does Achilles' stats compare to Lancer and Berserker's ? Beating out God-Hand doesn't mitigate Heracles' beast status and GB is a bitch for CQC.



Prior knowledge due to fame and the fact that they hail from the same lands would help him out a lot vs herc. There's also the Chiron's training bit so I'm like 99% sure he's got a trick to dealing with an opponent that outclasses him.

Gae Bolg would ruin his day in CQC since his luck wouldn't allow him to reality warp his way out of getting stabbed but achilles has a stupid high rank in Battle Continuation (A), and Cu also survived for a bit after stabbing himself in the heart with the spear, so there's no reason he can't replicate the same feat and kill the crap out of lancer in that time.




> I'd actually argue that Kojiro could at least take some wins against Achilles, should he deploy his duel field.




Tsubame Gaeshi would wreck him if he had the duel field up, but against Kojirou it's unnecessary to use it. Against someone like Herc it's basically "I need to use this or I'm dead" sort of deal.


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## Sablés (Jul 22, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> STR=B+
> DUR=A
> AGI=A+
> MGI=C
> ...



Eh, still kinda see Gae Bolg blowing a hole where Achilles' chest should be. 

Fair bit on Herc, being a one-trick pony as a Berserker screws him over. I see him losing personally




> IH is meaningless against Achillies' invulnerability.
> IH summons an army of servants, but none of these servants has divinity, only Iskander does.
> Which means only Iskander can harm Achillies, and this is not a fight he can win 1v1.



Doesn't matter if they can't hurt him, the army is made up of servants so they should still be able to overwhelm or deter Achilles with sheer numbers while Iskander goes in for the kill. Unless Duel Field explicitly imposes 1v1 and B.Rider can choose his opponent. In which case, GG.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

Ionian Hetairoi is a manifestation of Iskandar's own inner world so I don't see Duel Field lolnoping it, but that leaves his other noble phantasms to deal with.

Comet Form ensures that on foot none of the servants of Ionoi will be able to catch him, same for iskandar

Troias Tragoedia, his chariot, builds up more damage the faster he goes, so he can just opt for that and have himself a fun as shit chariot race with Iskandar as each tries to commit arcane vehicular manslaughter on the other.

and Iskandar has 0 answer to Achilles Cosmos which completely blocked Karna's Vasava Shakti


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## Sablés (Jul 22, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Ionian Hetairoi is a manifestation of Iskandar's own inner world so I don't see Duel Field lolnoping it, but that leaves his other noble phantasms to deal with.
> 
> Comet Form ensures that on foot none of the servants of Ionoi will be able to catch him, same for iskandar
> 
> ...



Sounds like it'd make for an interesting fight if Iskandars got the bulls but one that'll be his loss by the looks of things. Didn't know about the last part though.

NO SPOILERS  



GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Gae Bolg would ruin his day in CQC since his luck wouldn't allow him to reality warp his way out of getting stabbed but achilles has a stupid high rank in Battle Continuation (A), and Cu also survived for a bit after stabbing himself in the heart with the spear, so there's no reason he can't replicate the same feat and kill the crap out of lancer in that time.



Achilles would survive sure but he'd be too fucked up to fight a 100% Lancer. The latter who'd already know he'd just need to hang back and outlast the guy if he couldn't overpower him straight up. Don't know about this cosmos shit. If its passive (IC Cu is BL af so he's going for GB right off the bat) and can also block Gae Bolg then...


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

Fair point on Lancer having that over Achilles. Neither of the two is dumb when it comes to combat, but a crippling injury from Gae Bolg might tip the fight in Cu's favor. Only something like using Comet Form to GTFO of range would really save him if that's the case, but he doesn't have prior knowledge of the thing like Archer does so....yeah. 

I'd call it a toss up with a slight lean towards Cu due to how broken Gae Bolg is


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## Qinglong (Jul 22, 2015)

Lancer trips activating Gae Bolg revealing his true name right before getting killed via vehicular homicide

it's gonna happen


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

Being Lancer is Suffering


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## BreakFlame (Jul 22, 2015)

Qinglong said:


> Lancer trips activating Gae Bolg revealing his true name right before getting killed via vehicular homicide
> 
> it's gonna happen



DAMN YOU LUCK STAT


Out of curiosity, does Excalibur being a "holy sword" have any influence on Achilles invulnerability or would he still no-sell it?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

Balmung classifies as a holy/demonic sword and Achilles was still going to no sell it so yeah, Excallibur's in the same boat


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## BreakFlame (Jul 22, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Balmung classifies as a holy/demonic sword and Achilles was still going to no sell it so yeah, Excallibur's in the same boat



Then Saber is screwed unless Achilles uses that Dueling Field thing on her.


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## Brightsteel (Jul 22, 2015)

On the dueling field:

Would it cancel out Vlad's Demonic Defender of State skill?


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## Deer Lord (Jul 22, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> On the dueling field:
> 
> Would it cancel out Vlad's Demonic Defender of State skill?


If having a fort flying above ground be classified as a different domain
then creating a dimension outside of time certainly does.

and besides, vlad can't harm achilles anyways.


Edit:
Just read up on dueling field and it seems it also nullifies Achilles' own skill that buffs his stats.
so when he uses duel field he essentially suffers a rank down on physical stats
in which case herakles would beat him most of the times.


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## Brightsteel (Jul 22, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> If having a fort flying above ground be classified as a different domain
> then creating a dimension outside of time certainly does.
> 
> and besides, vlad can't harm achilles anyways.
> ...



In base he can't. Dracula can however.


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## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2015)

Dracula only can because blood-sucking is considered a "friendly" act.

Also, location is important.


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## manidk (Jul 22, 2015)

iirc, Achille's Cosmos was only able to block Vasavi Shakti to due to it being an "anti-divinity" attack.

As in, it could destroy "all the divinity" in the world, but not "the world."

Or some weird Nasu conceptual bullshit.

Not that it matters here I guess.


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## manidk (Jul 22, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> Gilgamesh shows this cunt how to be the most OP Servant in the War and do it with style.



Also this might be the worst post of the year.


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## ShadowReaper (Jul 23, 2015)

Possibly loses to Heracles for not having a weapon that can kill him 12 times or not. Possibly Cuhulainn can take him out because of Gae Bolg. 

Loses to Gilgamesh, because Enkidu counters him hard and Ea can destroy his shield.


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## Byrd (Jul 23, 2015)

No to those top too... Hercules would get wreck along with Lancer... they cannot handle him

Godhand gets nullified

Also Battle Cont. makes him a bitch to take down even more so than Lancer (F/N)


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## Sablés (Jul 23, 2015)

Byrd said:


> No to those top too... Hercules would get wreck along with Lancer... they cannot handle him



Like hell. If Achilles is beating either of those 2, it won't be without some insane luck and difficulty.


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## Byrd (Jul 23, 2015)

I swore duel field removes his invulnerability not lower his stats


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## Sablés (Jul 23, 2015)

> Affections of the Goddess increases his parameters by one rank in all statistics other than Mana and Luck


Stat boost similar to mad enhancement it seems but since its granted by the Gods, he loses them once Duel Field is activated.


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## shade0180 (Jul 23, 2015)

> I swore duel field removes his invulnerability not lower his stats



He has stat boost granted by god/goddess which is considered outside interferance by duel field..


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## span049 (Jul 23, 2015)

If this is something like a best of 7 kind of battle then realistically only Gil can pull off a win everytime. Some may take 1 or 2 fights like Her but 4/7? Don't see it happening


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## shade0180 (Jul 23, 2015)

Herc has stat advantage against Achilles in everything even in speed with duel field on, with duel field off Herc would wreck Achilles due to god hand.


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## BreakFlame (Jul 23, 2015)

Yeah, Herc's a little much for Achilles, and Cu is basically a perfect counter for him.


What exactly is the point of Duel FIeld, anyway? As far as I can tell, using it here gives him a giant disadvantage. Saber goes from being no-sold to nuking his face, Kojiro goes from being ineffectual to slicing his head off, and Archer now has a perfect shot at his head. What advantage does he gain from this, even in his original setting?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 23, 2015)

the fact that he used it to defeat his opponents in a fair fight and the fact that it's  massive fucking cockblock for people with a shitload of god given noble phantasms?

Duel Field basically makes Karna LITERALLY Obsolete tier, Cockblocks God hand which is one of the most broken defensive abilities in the setting etc etc etc

All he really has to give up for this power is one rank in each stat

He's still bullshit good at fighting and bullshit fucking hard to kill


And again

why the fuck would Achilles pop Duel Field vs people he doesn't need to use it against?

Like does he suddenly become mentally retarded and decide it's a great day to commit slow and agonizing suicide?


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## Featherine (Jul 23, 2015)

He might be forced to against Saber anyway, due to Avalon, otherwise they'll just look at each other 

It's useful to cancel stuff he has no answer to, like God Hand. He has much better chances of winning if it's disabled. I guess it'd cancel Gaia's support to Arcueid for instance, it might also isolate Nrvnqsr from his familiars since it's a 1on1... You can think of plenty of uses for that, it's a good trump card.

Of course there's no point in using it if he has the advantage in his normal state, using it right off the bat without knowing the other's capabilities would be bloody stupid.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 23, 2015)

Pretty much,  like I said the only one he'd most likely pop DF vs right off the bat is Herc

and that's due to conditional shit and herc being famous as all fuck on top of hailing from the same lands and training under the same master as him.


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## shade0180 (Jul 23, 2015)

> Kojiro goes from being ineffectual to slicing his head off, and Archer now has a perfect shot at his head. What advantage does he gain from this, even in his original setting?



Why would he need duel field against this guys anyway.  he could just trample them with his running speed to begin with....


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## BreakFlame (Jul 23, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> the fact that he used it to defeat his opponents in a fair fight and the fact that it's  massive fucking cockblock for people with a shitload of god given noble phantasms?
> 
> Duel Field basically makes Karna LITERALLY Obsolete tier, Cockblocks God hand which is one of the most broken defensive abilities in the setting etc etc etc
> 
> ...





shade0180 said:


> Why would he need duel field against this guys anyway.  he could just trample them with his running speed to begin with....



I was saying that it was basically useless here since it nerfs him fatally against Hercules and opens him to attack from all the others. I wasn't saying he would use it, I was saying there was no feasible scenario for him to use it in this battle.


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## Hachibi (Jul 23, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Why would he need duel field against this guys anyway.  he could just trample them with his running speed to begin with....



Because he love fighting and fair fight are the best fights.


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## shade0180 (Jul 23, 2015)

> I was saying that it was basically useless here since it nerfs him fatally against Hercules and opens him to attack from all the others.


The fight is 1 v 1



> Because he love fighting and fair fight are the best fights.



doesn't mean he would be dumb enough to use it when he doesn't need it.


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## BreakFlame (Jul 23, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> The fight is 1 v 1
> 
> 
> 
> doesn't mean he would be dumb enough to use it when he doesn't need it.



I know that, I meant using Dueling Field would allow people besides Herc to hurt him. Or Cu, who apparently also has Divinity?

The point I was trying to make (which admittedly is largely irrelevant) is that Dueling Field isn't really useful to him in this scenario. He has to use it on Herc to even stand a chance because God Hand is F***ing God Hand, but using it otherwise is tactically suicide since it throws away his invulnerability and nerfs his stats.

I was basically using a roundabout method to say he wouldn't ever use Dueling Field against the rest unless he wanted to die. Didn't think it'd turn into a thing.

Of course this is all irrelevant as he has the qualifications to be summoned as Lancer and therefore can't win anything ever


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 23, 2015)

What does him being able to be summoned as a lancer have to do with anything?

His primary class is Rider anyway

We have 0 idea about his capabilities as a lancer other than the fact that he'd have a terribad luck stat
*
 APOCRYPHA SPOILERS HO*
*Spoiler*: __ 



He cockblocked the shit out of Karna, Saved Atalanta from Jack's Corruption at the cost of a mutual kill
Killed fucking Chiron by punching him to death

All as a Rider with a D rank in LCK


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## BreakFlame (Jul 23, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> What does him being able to be summoned as a lancer have to do with anything?
> 
> His primary class is Rider anyway
> 
> ...



It

It was a joke

Because being Lancer is suffering. 

Anyway, I think the general flow of the thread is that aside from Gil the only two who pose a threat to Achilles (barring suicidal stupidity on his part) are Herc and Cu.


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## Featherine (Jul 24, 2015)

I've been wondering about a scenario for Achilles vs Herc.

Achilles is easily strong enough to take at least 2 or 3 lives out of Herc right ? What would happen if he "killed" Herc and immediately afterwards activated his Duel Field ? Would it prevent Godhand's activation and kill Herc since he wouldn't be able to come back from the dead ?

It would definitely be out of character but, there are bloodlusted scenarios here.


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## shade0180 (Jul 24, 2015)

Herc has battle continuation A just like Rider so unless he is totally incapable of moving he still have a chance of murking Rider in the duel field considering Rider would have weaker stats than normal.


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## Featherine (Jul 24, 2015)

Not... really sure why that even matters, Godhand activates upon *death*, not "near-death". I'm saying that Achilles kills Berserker and activates Duel Field to prevent Godhand activation, canceling out the revival.


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## shade0180 (Jul 24, 2015)

Because Rider wouldn't have any real good idea if herc is already dead or still living.

...


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 24, 2015)

Featherine said:


> He might be forced to against Saber anyway, due to Avalon, otherwise they'll just look at each other
> 
> It's useful to cancel stuff he has no answer to, like God Hand. He has much better chances of winning if it's disabled. *I guess it'd cancel Gaia's support to Arcueid for instance,* it might also isolate Nrvnqsr from his familiars since it's a 1on1... You can think of plenty of uses for that, it's a good trump card.
> 
> Of course there's no point in using it if he has the advantage in his normal state, using it right off the bat without knowing the other's capabilities would be bloody stupid.



Not that it'd help much since Arcueid is so above and beyond Servants even at her most nerfed


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## Featherine (Jul 24, 2015)

Battle Continuation makes you able to keep up despite harsh injuries, it doesn't make you move *after* you're dead... At best, with a high rank such as Berserker, it delays the time of your death, so yeah, he will know when he dies. Especially if Godhand has to repair a huge portion of his body, which is likely to be the case if he uses his chariot.

But even if that was the case, activating Duel Field when Berserker is near-death would basically guarantee a victory since he just has to buy time, using his Dromeus Kometes to buy the required time until he dies. Not to mention Saber with Shirou as a Master has even worse stats than depowered Achilles yet she did decently well against him in open combat, implying he would be smashed like a bug despite being a pretty skilled warrior with the best speed ever and a shield capable of blocking EX ranked blows is just plain silly.



Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Not that it'd help much since Arcueid is so above and beyond Servants even at her most nerfed


Never said it would allow Achilles to beat her or anything, I said it should effectively cut her from her link to Gaia. And it would be surprising if there was no servant that had a similar ability, I was just giving potential uses for it


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## Ausar (Jul 25, 2015)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Not that it'd help much since Arcueid is so above and beyond Servants even at her most nerfed



Outside of Gil of course...Well, more so because of compatibility than anything else...And possibly Saver as well.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 25, 2015)

Arcueid would mollywhop the shit out of Gil


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## Ausar (Jul 25, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Arcueid would mollywhop the shit out of Gil



30% Arc loses to Gil because of GoB mitigating her Gaia support ability. Archetype Earth however...?

Then again, IIRC Nasu's statement about that was pre-Extra/CCC and Strange Fake with Gil's continuous upgrades...So, who knows?

On-topic though, I believe Achilles would do really well, with his only challenges being Herc and Gil. :/


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 25, 2015)

Uhhh no, Nasu basically done power levels of Servants based on Arcueid, not at full power, but how she currently is, and Gil's like a fraction of that

And Arc has been shown that even at her most nerfed that she's above Servants, and at best just makes it so she doesn't kill them


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## Featherine (Jul 25, 2015)

Fun Fact: Arcueid received the biggest power-up of all the original characters in the Extra games Gil included, considering by statements she's the one and only character in the Nasuverse (so far) who's able to stand up to Amaterasu. Gil wouldn't even register on her radar if you use this version which we can assume is her Full-power self.

Gil can win against Tsukihime Arc if the World nerfs her, which is irrelevant anyway as it will bring her back each time with more of her power until she has enough to defeat the threat, that interview was more to nail the fact that she is an all-around type fighter. At barely 1% of her power left she shredded Roa to pieces, leaving only his ankles left with her Marble Phantasm. 

And best of all ? Since her Marble Phantasm merely ups to 100% the chances of natural phenomenons, Magic Resistance probably does jack against it. Finally, it's stated in Tsukihime that since she traveled around the World she's completely immune to weapons coming from various regions of the World, including Africa and whatnot off the top of my head, many of Gil's weapons will be lolnopped, that's bound to piss him off.

No two ways about it, Unrestricted Arcueid powerslams any version of Gil into the dirt.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 25, 2015)

Uhh, Gil ain't doing jack to Tsukihime arc, that version is still too powerful for him

Servant Arc is her at her weakest, no benefits, shitty master, nadda

You'd might as well be asking if Krillin can beat Goku


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## shade0180 (Jul 25, 2015)

> Krillin can beat Goku



More like Yamcha beating SJGSJG Goku.


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## Featherine (Jul 25, 2015)

I don't know what this Yamcha is, but it sounds just like Raditz.


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## AliceKumo (Jul 25, 2015)

I think people might be overplaying Arc a bit too much here. Not saying that Gil would win or anything, just that the comparisons are way off the chart, even if it was Archetype Earth.

That aside though, a question. Are Fate/Strange Fake feats accepted for Gil?


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## Ausar (Jul 25, 2015)

Regarding Gil vs Arc, this is the WoG on the matter-


*Spoiler*: __ 



Q: Who is stronger, Gilgamesh or Arcueid (30%)? While Arcueid has the strength of 4 Servants, I remember there being a scene in hollow implying that Gil was the equivalent of 5 Servants + a.

 A. In the definition of Arcueid's strength, there's this thing where "her output changes according to her opponent". As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is allowed only an output a little stronger than her opponent. And. Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level

 Servants use their respective Noble Phantasms while Arc uses her unlimited backup to fight, and differences occur depending on affinity. A simple-is-best Arc is an all rounder, and so generally her chances of winning are only high, but there are those opponents that she just has helplessly awful compatibility with.

 For example, in cases where even if the guy's stats are about the same as Arc, he has a ridiculously large number of weapons with high versatility. As the amount Arc is allowed to take out is based on "single entity ability", against types like Gil-sama, well, you see?

 And the "5 Servants + a" line is a comparison of simple "firepower". Like with the "corpses", foot soldier level opponents aren't going to be avoiding their attacks, so the ones who'd have the advantage are the ones who have more weapons. The reason why Servants excellent at one-on-one combat didn't stand out in Broad Bridge was because of this. Also, for normal Arc, she would get approximately the equivalent of 2 Servants single entity stats. 




I also recall that it was said that Lancer(5th War) can take her out via Gae Bolg-


*Spoiler*: __ 



Q. I have a question about the Servants vs. other character answer in the 9th issue of Comptiq. About a Servant with an average Noble Phantasm, who would have one and what rank would that have been?

A: That's a serious question. The level of the Noble Phantasm would be B, and ability being represented by numbers would be called an average Noble Phantasm. Broken Phantasm, Barrier of the Wind King (C), Gae Bolg (thrown) (B), that sort.
 On the other hand, those with conceptual effects, destiny interference types fall into a special category. With Gae Bolg (regular), no matter how much Arcueid might be superior to Lancer in numbers, she will be killed depending on her luck, you see.




However, as previously noted, none of this takes more than 30% Arc into consideration...Her at max, as Archetype Earth is very, very powerful...

Still, Gil's versatility shouldn't be underestimated, and he's received several changes/upgrades through Extra/CCC and Strange Fake...As far as Arc's resistance goes, as mentioned by Featherine, that was in regard to Conceptual Weapons-and not all NPs are conceptual weapons. Still, there will be things that Gil can use against her that will have no effect because of that as you noted.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 25, 2015)

None of that matters in the face of Marble Phantasm where she can outright reality warp nature on a whim, this isn't counting the fact that True Ancestors are essentially godlike in comparison to Servants, but the fact that a fake Tatari Arcueid is fully capable of dropping the moon via MP and the Tatari is barely even tapping into Arc's current payload which allowed her to summon the Crimson Moon from 1000 years into the future

And this was all before Extra was released, this is just og Melty Blood

Extra Arc makes Servants look like shit in stats and she has NOTHING going for her

Like she doesn't have access to the planet since she's on the moon, and her natural strength is waned on the fact that A she's a Servant, B she has a shit Master, and all the MC's Servant can do is force her to retreat IIRC

Tsukihime/MB Arc doesn't have those restrictions and Cu Chulainn was in Extra and he had to suicide vs Lu Bu, whom you basically defeat anyway


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## Featherine (Jul 25, 2015)

Funny you mention Extra since she received an even bigger power boost than Gil in those games.

By more recent WoG she's the only character in the entire Nasuverse who can contend with Amaterasu who wouldn't notice Gil even if he parked his Vimana right in the middle of her kitchen.

When she decided she had enough of hanging around there the Moon Cell's only choice was to bend the knee and ask if she wanted any souvenir before leaving for good measure.

There's no exaggeration in what we said, at all.

Edit: Heck, she already had a planetary feat in AACC.


----------



## Qinglong (Jul 25, 2015)

She can't contend with Ammy

She can weaken Ammy to the point her chances of losing are not 0%

she still would get her shit pushed in 9/10 min


----------



## Ausar (Jul 25, 2015)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> None of that matters in the face of Marble Phantasm where she can outright reality warp nature on a whim, this isn't counting the fact that True Ancestors are essentially godlike in comparison to Servants, but the fact that a fake Tatari Arcueid is fully capable of dropping the moon via MP and the Tatari is barely even tapping into Arc's current payload which allowed her to summon the Crimson Moon from 1000 years into the future
> 
> And this was all before Extra was released, this is just og Melty Blood
> 
> ...



I admit, I don't really know what Gil could do against Marble Phantasm...It is pretty crazy. lol

That said, one of his newest upgrades in Strange Fake:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Auto-Defensor - The Auto-Defensor (自動防御, Jidō Bōgyo?) is a series of golden discs that float in the air to intercept attacks coming within range, able to be set up so as to protect an entire floor of a building. At twenty meters, it automatically sends out an innumerable series of small lightning bolts to strike down the target. It is possible for attacks like the arrows of True Archer to slip through the defenses despite the great speed of the lightning.

From Beast's Lair, Gil Vs True Archer:

*Spoiler*: __ 



In a canyon of red clay soil several kilometers north of the cave Gilgamesh had been summoned in, a man was standing on a hill of roughly the same elevation as the top floor of Crystal Hill. He was a lanky man over two meters tall. A bow was gripped in his hands. It was larger than a normal great bow, but because it was being held by the slender man, it felt somewhat small. The man wore something that ought to be described as outlandish rather than strange. What would first attract one’s attention is the long piece of cloth vertically covering his body. It was not resting on his shoulders. Its center was placed over the top of his head, completely covering his face and the back of his head and then hanging down so as to conceal the front and back of his body. What can be seen of his face from the parts not covered by the cloth is at best the area around his ears, and one could not tell if even he could see in front. He had a skirt and undergarment behind the cloth and wore sandals, but he had no other piece of cloth on his upper body, and dark dye stained his exposed skin. There was also some form of pattern drawn in white dye on his body, but it was covered by the aforementioned cloth so its entirety could not be ascertained. The man, who at a glance looked like something that would appear in a horror game chasing after the main character, grinned beneath the cloth covering his face and gently drew the bow without a word. Then his fingers let go of the string, releasing a single arrow. At a speed far beyond the speed of the wind, beyond even the speed of sound.


 Snowfield sky

 A blade-like gust of wind hurtled through the city of Snowfield in a straight line. It cut through air and formed shockwaves, and by the time the boom resonated in the surroundings, the wind had already gone. In the center of the wind gust was a single arrow. Where it was heading was the top floor of Crystal Hill, a high-rise building at the heart of Snowfield. The arrow that the mysterious man shot had not decelerated, had not changed elevation, even briefly since he had fired it from the hill in the canyon, and it continued moving forward like a laser beam while ignoring the laws of physics. The arrow had already travelled 20 kilometers, which by itself proved that the bowman was no human being, no normal magus. The shockwave plowed through the city sky, the sound and impact shattering the glass of buildings below its line of fire.
 A human, no, even a Heroic Spirit would not be safe from a direct hit. Soon after piercing the top of its target’s head, the rest of the upper body would be blown to smithereens. 
 The arrow continued straight on course to its target. To the head of the person standing next to Gilgamesh, the King of Heroes who was occupying the top floor of Crystal Hill: his Master, Tine Chelc.


 Crystal Hill Royal Suite

 Tine, who had been facing Gilgamesh, glanced to the window on the north side.
“Eh…?”
The sound hadn’t reached her yet. She simply sensed some strange disturbance in the mana in the air and just looked in that direction without much thought, but – 
By the time she noticed that the wind was being shredded, it had been too late. A single point of death was coming from her, already at a distance at which her reflexes could not act in time. However she moved, there were no means for her by which she could avoid the incoming arrow that was moving faster than sound. For her at least. 
“…” 
Instantly, thunder boomed outside the glass window when the arrow was within 20 meters from the hotel. Bright light dazzled, and innumerous small bolts of lightning ran across the sky. Of those, one had directly hit the arrow and dissipated what should have been a deadly blow in the air. Still, the shockwave shattered the glass, coming at all sides in the room.
“ ”
Tine casted a silent chant, and wind swirled from her hand to become a barrier that deflected the glass shrapnel raining down on herself, Gilgamesh, and her subordinates. 
“Are you uninjured?”
She asked Gilgamesh after regaining her breath. 
 Then the King of Heroes, who remained uninjured, answered unamused. 
“I am fine.”
 “What was that lightning?”
 “The lightning was one of my Noble Phantasms. It seems that it intercepted something.” 
Upon hearing this nonchalant reply from Gilgamesh, Tine mumbled something on reflex. 
“Intercepted?”
Tine looked outside the window and saw multiple disks floating above the building. 
“An autodefensor. There was a chance that my friend would spring a surprise attack in jest, so I had readied it in case, but–“ 

Gilgamesh shifted his eyes to the north and took out a noble phantasm from his vault. It was a golden ring, which floated in the air, as seems to be the case with such objects, and had a strangely warped lens fit inside. Though it was a single lens, it showed the distant landscape like a telescope. 
“I did not think it would deflect an arrow from a mere Archer.” 
In the ring was a man boldly drawing a bow in this direction. 
“Archer…?”
Questions entered Tine’s mind. Archer was none other than Gilgamesh. So it would have to be a Rider, Assassin, or Berserker-class Servant using a bow for a weapon. Tine looked at Archer through the golden ring and what surprised her first was how high his status values were. If you were to consider his total status points alone, it would appear that he was greater than Gilgamesh. 
Then it must be a Berserker? 
 Gilgamesh muttered without changing his expression before an apprehensive Tine. 
“….Will you come with me?”
But the second shot had already been fired. 
 The bolts of lightning from the autodefensor activated and went to intercept the incoming arrow, but while several bolts had struck it, the arrow managed to slip through the lightning strikes and came for Gilgamesh. The speed at which electricity transmitted through the air, the speed of lighting in other words, is slower than light, but it should have been fast enough to catch a normal arrow. But the speed of the arrow went beyond the limits of humanity. Gilgamesh instantly manifested his armor and knocked the arrow away with his left gauntlet. However, apparently not completely nullifying its force, a portion of the armor broke and chips of gold fell to the floor.
“….Ho.”
Coldly looking at the chips of his armor, Gilgamesh slightly narrowed his eyes, then, 
“Impressive bowmanship, however… I will shake off the rust from my treasures with you, you manner-less barbarian!” 
An enormous noble phantasm appeared to the side of the top floor, outside of the shattered glass.
“What is this?”
 “Tine, get on the back.”
 “Are you sure of it?
“If I leave you behind, I cannot protect you from those infernal arrows. Until I fulfill my promise with my friend, I cannot have you die.”

Tine nodded strongly to answer the plainly-spoken words of the King and boarded the rear of the huge noble phantasm. It looked like it was a golden yacht with large fairy wings. It was the noble phantasm Vimana, a small aerial battleship among the noble phantasms of Gilgamesh. The King’s Treasure which is said to include all treasures included not only weapons but the crystallizations of all knowledge produced by man. When Tine was on the rear of Vimana on all fours, Gilgamesh launched the golden vehicle. The sudden acceleration almost caused Tine to be blown off unwittingly, but she managed to regain her balance and breath by using wards against wind and gravity control magic. Gilgamesh stood powerfully on the bow and sent the battleship toward Archer. Sometimes arrows launched by Archer would come but the dozens of interception systems deployed around it completely shot down all of them. 
“This is amazing…”
The girl unconsciously exclaimed with emotion after seeing again what it was she was riding on.
“It can even do this…”
Was it awe or was it wonder that was contained in the emotions in the voice of the girl?

“Ho.”
Looking at the golden ship which managed to arrive before him, Archer exhaled a quiet mumble. A low mumble, which behind it contained shades of frank admiration and slight self-mockery. 
“You attempted to take me by surprise. You better not be begging for your life.”
In reaction to Gilgamesh who jumped down from the bow to the hill, Archer, who was about 10 meters away, gradually brought his face up eerily.
“….”
 “Do you have any last words?” asked Gilgamesh, but the mysterious Archer did not even attempt a reply. Saying nothing, he silently drew his bow. And then without hesitation, shot an arrow towards Tine, whose head was exposed from the rear seat of Vimana.
“!”
The faster than sound arrow headed towards Tine’s face. She could mitigate the force of the shockwave with a powerful wind barrier, but it wouldn’t be able to completely hold off the arrow. Tine once again recognized the incoming death that was closing in on her, but – 
Vimana’s add-on interception noble phantasm shot it down in front of her.
“Fool, did you think it would no longer activate if I was no longer on it?”
 “….”
Ignoring Gilgamesh, Archer fired two, three more shots continuously. Tine had already hid herself behind the hull, but he continued drawing his bow with force as if he were to penetrate Vimana’s armor. There was a cracking sound to the side of Gil’s head. Anyone watching should know what he was trying to do. He wasn’t seriously trying to shoot through the ship to get to Tine; he we taunting the hero called Gilgamesh. Either not realizing he was being taunted, or realizing it but being angered by the fact that Archer was continuing to target the girl and ignore him, Gilgamesh continued speaking with anger in his detached tone of voice. 
“If victory is all that matters to you, or if you would choose to win painlessly, that is the right decision to make. I might do the same on a whim depending on the circumstance.”
And then, in the next instant – 
 “But it is because I am the one doing it that it can be tolerated! It is not an act that is allowed for the likes of you!”
Shouting the unreasonable, Gilgamesh fired countless noble phantasms from the Gate of Babylon opening behind him. It seemed that this rain of blades mixed with high rank noble phantasms would leave nothing remaining of Archer. But he waved the bow he was holding with his left hand and knocked aside the noble phantasms that had been fired at a speed that defied the common sense of heroic spirits. 
“What?”
 “…”
The Heroic Spirit who deflected dozens of noble phantasms without a scratch silently held out his hand towards Gilgamesh. And then, he turned it over palm side up and curled his fingers back and forth, beckoning for Gilgamesh to come. Gilgamesh narrowed his eyes and had his voice reverberate over the hill with a voice of restrained rage. 
“I see that you have nimble fingers. Then….how about this?”
Gilgamesh put on a malicious smile and deployed the Gate of Babylon over a large area around the hill. Deployed over all sides around Archer, the entrance to his vault began to undulate like a tornado. Suddenly, innumerous noble phantasms were blasted out with the momentum of a machine gun, creating a tornado of light and impact high above the hill. Dozens, hundreds, thousands of noble phantasms came raining down onto the man standing in the center of the tornado. At times, they were blades, at times they were knowledge, at times they were pain, at times they were knowledge. There had been a long sword that slayed an oriental dragon. There had been a demonic sword that brought ruin. There had been a spear that killed heroes. There had been lightning without form. The originals of all the noble phantasms humanity had obtained or created were propelled unsparingly. A hellish rain spun by mankind was fired in all directions in 360 degrees. Tine seeing the amazing sight had imagined that not even chunks of flesh would remain of Archer. But once the tornado settled, a spectacle that betrayed Gilgamesh and Tine’s expectations greeted them. In it was Archer, still uninjured, brushing off the dust from the long piece of cloth covering his body, and around him, piles of innumerous noble phantasms. 
“It can’t be…” said Tine, her eyes bulging in disbelief, but Gilgamesh ignored her and looked at his foe. 
 For some time, silence dominated the hill, but that was soon broken by Archer’s chuckling.
”Heh….hehheh…..hgh….ha…hahaha…”
An obviously mocking voice emerged from behind the cloth.
“What is so amusing?” asked Gilgamesh with a blank expression, to which Archer replied back, saying very clearly: 
“Weak.”
Anyone who had once faced Gilgamesh would question the sanity of whoever said that. 
“….”
Tine felt as if the temperature almost suddenly dropped. 
“All you do is throw weapons blindly...even hurling sand would have made a better substitute...“
The mysterious Archer continued speaking in the chilly atmosphere he created. 
“Such puerile tricks can defeat only weaklings……or non-thinking beasts.” 
He spoke softly but it was evident that what he said had strength in it containing not simple derision but some manner of fixation, of tenacity. . 
“……Ho?”
The expression on Gilgamesh’s face changed. Tine was worried that Gilgamesh would explode, but to the contrary, a sliver of a smile appeared around his mouth. In that moment the emotion that controlled Gilgamesh transformed from “anger at the mannerless attacker” to “curiosity in this strong warrior.” 
Observing the change in the King of Heroes, the mysterious Archer said, “Draw the sword that lies in the deepest parts of your storage. Then we will be equals.”
Perhaps he had learned of it from someone else, or he had noticed the exception presence in the vault from the previous attack, but Archer was telling Gilgamesh to bring his strongest weapon. 　
Gilgamesh gnashing his teeth smiled and returned the taunt in amusement. 
“Ea is no less than my other half. It is not a sword to use against a weakling like you.”
And then, instead of the Ea the Sword of Separation, a single sword appeared in Gilgamesh’s hand. Merodach, the sword said to the original model of the legends of swords of selection in the various lands of the world. He must be planning on testing his opponent with this sword, to determine if he merited drawing Ea, his very symbol, on. 
“Prove to me that you are worthy of beholding Ea.”
 “What foolishness…you could have avoided death had you drawn it.”
Archer muttered and then lowered his right hand, the one not holding the bow, to the side of his body.
 A new piece of “fabric” appeared around it upon doing so. It would appear at a glance to be a band with a plain pattern drawn on it, but those who could see from a different perspective would immediately recognize just how abnormal it was.
“That is….a Noble Phantasm for sure….”
To even Tine’s eyes, the magic covering that band was abnormal. Gilgamesh looked at this cloth covered with a thick divine aura like it had been used by a god itself and narrowed his eyes. 
“I feel something different from the gods I know of. But it has the same roots…”
It was a bit of a displeasing noble phantasm to Gilgamesh who claimed to hate the gods. But he was interested to see what move this Archer would play. Gilgamesh boldly waited for his foe to make his move while looking at him in half anticipation. Archer laughed behind the cloth and prepared to release the power of his noble phantasm. Then several seconds later, a blow filled with the divine aura rocked the earth. 




His lightning speed auto defense would also assist in a fight with Arc. Against MB, probably not much, but otherwise definitely so I think.






Featherine said:


> Funny you mention Extra since she received an even bigger power boost than Gil in those games.
> 
> By more recent WoG she's the only character in the entire Nasuverse who can contend with Amaterasu who wouldn't notice Gil even if he parked his Vimana right in the middle of her kitchen.
> 
> ...



Are you referring to the talk of AE possibly being able to play ping pong with continents and stop the Earth's rotation?


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## Featherine (Jul 26, 2015)

Qinglong said:


> She can't contend with Ammy
> 
> She can weaken Ammy to the point her chances of losing are not 0%
> 
> she still would get her shit pushed in 9/10 min



Mind telling me where you got that information ? Because I have the Extra Material right in front of me, and I'm not seeing at all where this is stated.

Here's the page I'm referencing by the way:

I don't think Amaterasu vs Arc is discussed anywhere else in there, although I admit I only skimmed it. Otherwise, mind linking me ?



			
				Ausar said:
			
		

> Are you referring to the talk of AE possibly being able to play ping pong with continents and stop the Earth's rotation?


...Talk ? ... Possibly ? 
Her Arcade Ending in MBAACC makes it clear as day, it's a pretty casual feat too:

では世界を閉じるとしよう。星よ、その回転を一時休めてーーー
Dewa sekai wo tojiru to shiyou. Hoshi yo, sono ibuki wo ittoki yasumete---

She says she'll shut down the world, starting by stopping the rotation for a while, that's when she gets interrupted by Arc. And guess what's even better ? Nerfed-as-shit Tsukihime Arcueid actually beats/stalemates her


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## Hachibi (Jul 26, 2015)

The reason Moon Cell couldn't delete her is because she come form CM like all TA.

Also, Tsukihime Arc almost killed a Roa that couldn't use his magecraft, so it isn't as impressive at it look like.


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## Qinglong (Jul 26, 2015)

> If we're talking only about EXTRA and CCC, she's about the only one who can bring the Golden Fur White Face down "to circumstances where its possible to defeat her, however little the chances may be".



I fail to see how you get "can contend with" from "little chance to win after weakening her"


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## RosenWitch (Jul 26, 2015)

Yeah, compatibility is important. All it says is that Amaterasu cannot be defeated by the cast from Extra and CCC under normal circumstances, but when she's brought down to 1/6th of her power, things are obviously different. At that point, there might be a slew of other characters who can fight Ammy more efficiently, but they're pointless to consider, because she needs to be penalized first.

It works out ideally against Amaterasu, but it might not be as crippling to opponents like Gilgamesh. It really doesn't sound like the power-up some people consider it to be.


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## Featherine (Jul 26, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> The reason Moon Cell couldn't delete her is because she come form CM like all TA.


Never stated anywhere in the game AFAIK, find me the screen please. I remember the narration clearly stating the Moon Cell bends over and lets her go, heck, she got in because she felt like it in the first place and the Moon Cell had to bend over that time as well considering she's not a part of the usually summonable force.



Hachibi said:


> Also, Tsukihime Arc almost killed a Roa that couldn't use his magecraft, so it isn't as impressive at it look like.


Irrelevant, her Marble Phantasm ups the chances of Natural Phenomenons, Magecraft was never shown to protect against that.



Qinglong said:


> I fail to see how you get "can contend with" from "little chance to win after weakening her"


And once again, I fail to see where this statement comes from, EXTRA Material Book says nothing of the sort, I asked for a source/quote. 



RosenWitch said:


> Yeah, compatibility is important. All it says is that Amaterasu cannot be defeated by the cast from Extra and CCC under normal circumstances, but when she's brought down to 1/6th of her power, things are obviously different. At that point, there might be a slew of other characters who can fight Ammy more efficiently, but they're pointless to consider, because she needs to be penalized first.
> 
> It works out ideally against Amaterasu, but it might not be as crippling to opponents like Gilgamesh. It really doesn't sound like the power-up some people consider it to be.


This is flat out wrong on many levels:
- The Material Book specifically states that Arc is the only one with chances to beat her, everyone else is just boned.
- "Weakening" or "circumstances" or even her 1/6th stats divider skill do NOT appear in that sentence a single time.
- Compatibility is never mentioned either.

And I'm pretty sure that even if Gil doesn't rely as much on his stats as others they're pretty freaking important, Ea's power comes from his stats for instance, nerf his stats to 1/6th and you nerf Ea to 1/6th of it's power. No idea how you think that won't be crippling.


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## Hachibi (Jul 26, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Never stated anywhere in the game AFAIK, find me the screen please. I remember the narration clearly stating the Moon Cell bends over and lets her go, heck, she got in because she felt like it in the first place and the Moon Cell had to bend over that time as well considering she's not a part of the usually summonable force.





			
				Extra material on her NP said:
			
		

> A world configuration where the relationship between the moon and the Earth is utilized.
> *Originating from the brain of the moon* and after many years becoming the touch of the Earth, this avatar possesses an Earthly authority while being a copy of the moon.
> She simultaneously embodies the basic rule of the moon and the basic rule of the Earth, and she can use the discord when both are on the same level as a means of attack.



So yeah, something form the moon can't do jack against something that come form it.



> Irrelevant, her Marble Phantasm ups the chances of Natural Phenomenons, Magecraft was never shown to protect against that.



MP doesn't up the chances of Natural Phenomenons, it make you able to use your imagination to control nature.



			
				Tsukihime Encyclopedia said:
			
		

> Marble Phantasm [Unusual talent]
> Imagination Realization. As the name suggests, it is the ability to manifest anything you can imagine.
> It is the ability possessed by elementals, which are the sense of touch of the natural world. By connecting their will directly to the world, they are able to transfigure the world into whatever environment they imagine. Of course, the level of manifestation varies depending on the scale of the elemental, and it goes without saying that only nature can be transfigured ? things that exist independently of nature are immune.
> In Tsukihime, Arcueid eliminated Roa by using marble phantasm to turn the layers of the atmosphere in the hallway into a vacuum, like a carving knife slicing up a daikon radish. Though she could not affect Roa himself, it was impossible for him to avoid the finely sliced atmosphere, and he was reduced to nothing but ankles.
> ...


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## Featherine (Jul 26, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> So yeah, something form the moon can't do jack against something that come form it.


I'm not sure what's the most hilarious here, the fact that your quote never mentions the Moon Cell once or the fact that you come up with a "Moon can't do nothing against Moon" when it's stated nowhere in your own quote. Not to mention that if this really talks about her NP then it's normal, because you know, a Moon actually appears during Blut die Schwester.
Just because the Moon Cell has Moon in it doesn't mean she somehow becomes God on Earth there 
The narration of the game clearly states The Moon Cell can't do anything to prevent her from leaving and never mentions once this Moon thing.



Hachibi said:


> MP doesn't up the chances of Natural Phenomenons, it make you able to use your imagination to control nature.


It's the exact same thing 
She uses her imagination to come up with a natural phenomenon that can be used in X situation, when she finds one she ups the chances of it happening to 100%.
Like, really.

EDIT: watching the scene again it looks like the Moon Cell actually tried it's hardest to erase her, and she says it just makes her body tingly


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## Hachibi (Jul 26, 2015)

Featherine said:


> I'm not sure what's the most hilarious here, the fact that your quote never mentions the Moon Cell once or the fact that you come up with a "Moon can't do nothing against Moon" when it's stated nowhere in your own quote. Not to mention that if this really talks about her NP then it's normal, because you know, a Moon actually appears during Blut die Schwester.
> Just because the Moon Cell has Moon in it doesn't mean she somehow becomes God on Earth there
> The narration of the game clearly states The Moon Cell can't do anything to prevent her from leaving and never mentions once this Moon thing.



That's because the logic here is really simple:

Arcueid come form CM (which is essentially the planet itself) and is the closest to his power., the Moon Cell is within the Moon.

That's not going into the fact that se can use his Castle.



> It's the exact same thing
> She uses her imagination to come up with a natural phenomenon that can be used in X situation, when she finds one she ups the chances of it happening to 100%.
> Like, really.



Because a castle is a natural phenomenom?


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## shade0180 (Jul 26, 2015)

Hachi....

Type Moon is not the literal moon.. 

Type Moon holds the Moon cell not the moon...

Also Moon Cell was created before the moon or the earth existed..

Edit:

I'm just going to say this shit is confusing..


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## Featherine (Jul 26, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> That's because the logic here is really simple:
> 
> Arcueid come form CM (which is essentially the planet itself) and is the closest to his power., the Moon Cell is within the Moon.
> 
> That's not going into the fact that se can use his Castle.


More like "My baseless assumption supports my claim so I like it". It's pretty simple, find me a single quote stating that the fact Arc has an affinity with the Moon (when in reality, it's more symbolic being the "Tsukihime" considering she is a spirit of Gaia...) makes the Moon Cell unable to affect her.
Hint: The Moon Cell actually tries to erase her, and the only thing it does is make her body tingly, making her realize she's not from there. It's just after waking up from her Berserker state and she herself says that she wasn't conscious so it makes sense she doesn't know where the fuck she is. Anyway, that fact in itself throws your theory in the bin.



Hachibi said:


> Because a castle is a natural phenomenom?


Nice try, Arc was already stated to be able to create villages and shit, that's a piece of her Marble Phantasm, being able to alter her surroundings and basically warp reality, nothing new. Don't try to switch the subject, the "attacking" function of her Marble Phantasm ups the chances of Natural Phenomenons, stated multiple times, is all.


> Also, in the world of Tsukihime spiritual realms are not alternate dimensions, but rather exist within the world itself. Things like legendary lands and countries of eternal spring are the products of the imagination of whatever elemental rules over them. Consequently, it is possible for humans to wander into them by accident.
> The castle in the mountains that Arcueid calls home is actually a product of her marble phantasm.


She connects her will to the World, so she can bring forth the Castle, why ? Because it's part of the World and it's her right as a descendant of Crimson Moon of the purest nature. 

Please.


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## RosenWitch (Jul 26, 2015)

Featherine said:


> This is flat out wrong on many levels:
> - The Material Book specifically states that Arc is the only one with chances to beat her, everyone else is just boned.
> - "Weakening" or "circumstances" or even her 1/6th stats divider skill do NOT appear in that sentence a single time.
> - Compatibility is never mentioned either.
> ...



Obviously? I never claimed otherwise. She stands a chance because Ammy, at a sixth of her stats, is not all-powerful. She is ''brought down'' to circumstances wherein she can be defeated, however low the odds may be. When the context involves Extra and CCC characters only, why do you immediately assume this is full-power Arc?

The quote that was posted earlier came from the White Berserker entry from the Extra materials. The same one you drew your quote from. To expand:



> Her authority of "reducing all abilities of any target to a sixth if the stage is the moon" should be an effective countermeasure against other enemies on the same broken tier.
> Since it?fs a conceptual numerical alteration, there's no means of avoiding it while on the moon. Even BB who became the Moon Cell is subject to this restriction.
> 
> If we're talking only about EXTRA and CCC, she's about the only one who can bring the Golden Fur White Face down "to circumstances where its possible to defeat her, however little the chances may be".



That's it. It has everything to do with her stat reduction ability, and even then her odds are far from brilliant. The only thing Extra really did to Arc was clarify how there are entities out there she can't exceed with her back-up.


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## philharmonic21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Featherine said:


> And once again, I fail to see where this statement comes from, EXTRA Material Book says nothing of the sort, I asked for a source/quote.



Probably means from this quote/translation


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Berserker (White) [Servant?]
> The Servant you fight in the fourth round, version 2.
> Her Master, Gatou Monji.
> A funny vamp with disheveled hair and vicious crimson eyes.
> ...






This seems to imply that her authority to weaken on the moon is what makes her so deadly.

As for the stuff with the Moon Cell


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Blood Sisters
> (Random German I keep forgetting how to transliterate.)
> The Noble Phantasm?c-like thing that white Berserker uses. It comes from the greatest attack of Waruceid from the Melty Blood fighting game.
> In Extra, it does high physical damage along with adding the ?gmoon?h abnormal status. A Servant afflicted with the ?gmoon?h status will suffer from reduced STR and CON.
> ...






The description of her NP notes that the Moon Cell abides by the rules of the Moon.


----------



## Ausar (Jul 26, 2015)

Featherine said:


> ...Talk ? ... Possibly ?
> Her Arcade Ending in MBAACC makes it clear as day, it's a pretty casual feat too:
> 
> では世界を閉じるとしよう。星よ、その回転を一時休めてーーー
> ...



Ah, okay, thanks. Dat based Arc tho. lol



Featherine said:


> And I'm pretty sure that even if Gil doesn't rely as much on his stats as others they're pretty freaking important, Ea's power comes from his stats for instance, nerf his stats to 1/6th and you nerf Ea to 1/6th of it's power. No idea how you think that won't be crippling.



About Ea though, Gil isn't entirely dependent on his own stats alone, Ea's output can be furthered through synchronization with his other NPs:





And he does just that in Strange Fake:


*Spoiler*: __ 




From, Beast's Lair-
Gil Vs Enkidu-
“You’re lecturing me on the way of kings right after deciding to turn tail? A thousand transformations you might have, but you really haven’t changed.”
With a broad grin, Gil raised Ea again. In response, the Noble Phantasms scattered about the area roared. Ea, strengthened by the power of the Noble Phantasms, twisted the World once more.
“This will be my final blow tonight. Accept this in place of a contract for our reunion.”
 “Of course.”
Enkidu fused with the earth again, and spoke while gathering mana in his body.
“I’ll run away right after that. Though I feel bad for Ea, using it as a smokescreen.”
 “Don’t jest. Is not all of Creation blinded by my power?”

 Then, the two smiled again, and in the next instant— 
With even greater power than before, the two 

Enuma Elish

Creation Epics met, and left their marks on the World.
The sight left scars on this desert land, and in the hearts of most of the watching magi, that even time would find difficult to heal.




Also, a new piece of info(Sort of) about Ea from Strange Fake:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Also from Beast's Lair-
Desert region

 The blow that declared the start of the False Holy Grail War could well have been the final attack that ended a Holy Grail War.

 Many Heroic Spirits would not even warrant the use of Ea.
 Most Heroic Spirits whom the King deemed worthy to wield his sword against would be awed at its power, yet challenge the King anyway.
 Heroes that witnessed the power of Genesis would feel a variety of emotions.
 Resignation, determination, terror, fear, horror, hatred, or perhaps joy.
 But there was only one Heroic Spirit who would smile with nostalgia in the face of hell on Earth, the amalgamation of Death and the Void.

 Ah, yes.
 While a vast power trampled Heaven and Earth and smashed the World on its path toward him, Enkidu smiled an expression of deep relief.
 It was an attack , devoid of deceit or subterfuge.
 Though it lacked the sheer magnitude it had during the Age of Gods, the nature of his power was exactly as it had been.
—I’m happy, Gil.
 ...So happy that I can test my powers against yours like this again…
There was no one more human than him, though he hated humans — no one more divine, though he denied the gods.
 The King of Heroes, who stood upon the apex of Creation, was fighting him seriously as an opponent.
In that case, Enkidu could only respond in kind.
As he thought this, the Heroic Spirit turned with a gentle motion.
“Adjusted for this era… I think it’d be something like this.”
The Void shattered the earth as it made its way towards him. The Heroic Spirit smiled, and smiled, and smiled— 

“I’ll fight with everything I have too, Gil.”

Then, everything went into flux.

So Enkidu notes that Ea is weaker than in the AoG, but then again, Servants are stronger during life anyways so...Moot point I suppose.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 26, 2015)

RosenWitch said:


> Yeah, compatibility is important. All it says is that Amaterasu cannot be defeated by the cast from Extra and CCC under normal circumstances, but when she's brought down to 1/6th of her power, things are obviously different. At that point, there might be a slew of other characters who can fight Ammy more efficiently, but they're pointless to consider, because she needs to be penalized first.
> 
> It works out ideally against Amaterasu, but it might not be as crippling to opponents like Gilgamesh. It really doesn't sound like the power-up some people consider it to be.



Well, I think it's most definitely a power up, specially since it's most likely only considering the 30% version. Ultimate One (the ability to raise her power above her foe) is replaced by the ability to divide their power to 1/6 while on the moon. So all she has for her are her Marble Phantasm and her base stats. While everyone else, even godlike characters like BB and Gil with his power boost don't stand a chance.

When you think of it like that it's really impressive, since everyone else in the Moon Cell gets strengthened to ridiculous level while she is arguably weaker (it depends on what you consider better, Ultimate One or Blut der Schwester), yet she can still hold her own.


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## Featherine (Jul 26, 2015)

RosenWitch said:


> Obviously? I never claimed otherwise. She stands a chance because Ammy, at a sixth of her stats, is not all-powerful. She is ''brought down'' to circumstances wherein she can be defeated, however low the odds may be. When the context involves Extra and CCC characters only, why do you immediately assume this is full-power Arc?
> 
> The quote that was posted earlier came from the White Berserker entry from the Extra materials. The same one you drew your quote from.


Good thing this passage never mentions Arc having to weaken her or anything about "bringing her down to circumstances where she can be defeated". Like I said about twice already, weakening doesn't appear here. Stop relying on wikis perhaps ?
Because implying they're talking about the Arcueid that was nerfed as all hell with her retarded Master having a chance against Amaterasu would be hilarious ? If she's the only one being able to fight her while gimped by the Mad Enhancement and her nitwit of a Master Gatou it makes her even more powerful when she's at max, you do realize that right ? ...

Also: 


> Aランクサーヴァント：　１００
> 
> 一尾：　９
> 二尾：　８１
> ...


Divide that by 6 and you still have someone who should be 65k+ times stronger than the best of the best servants.



RosenWitch said:


> To expand:
> 
> That's it. It has everything to do with her stat reduction ability, and even then her odds are far from brilliant. The only thing Extra really did to Arc was clarify how there are entities out there she can't exceed with her back-up.


It has nothing to do with it since it's not mentioned in the part where Amaterasu vs Arc is discussed. Her reduce stats to 1/6th comes from her authority, implying she has a higher authority than a genuine Divine being like Amaterasu is just lol-worthy.


This is all off-topic as hell though, damn it Nasu


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## philharmonic21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Good thing this passage never mentions Arc having to weaken her or anything about "bringing her down to circumstances where she can be defeated". .



The how exactly would it be translated?

If it doesn't say bring down and its not implying it due to mentioning the 1/6 Power/ability reduction  in the same breath as the Amaterasu vs Arc discussion + her power level then does it just say Arc stands a chance against Amaterasu without any reference too anything else?




> It has nothing to do with it since it's not mentioned in the part where Amaterasu vs Arc is discussed. Her reduce stats to 1/6th comes from her authority, implying she has a higher authority than a genuine Divine being like Amaterasu is just lol-worthy.



I'm confused, what does Amaterasu being hit with a Moon base Authority mean that her authority is higher than Amaterasu (does that mean that Arc would ignore whatever Sun based authority she had)?


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 26, 2015)

Featherine said:


> It has nothing to do with it since it's not mentioned in the part where Amaterasu vs Arc is discussed. Her reduce stats to 1/6th comes from her authority, implying she has a higher authority than a genuine Divine being like Amaterasu is just lol-worthy.



Why would it be lol worthy for an entity said to be higher than gods to have more authority than a god? The True Ancestors are higher on the totem pole than Divine Spirits, since they are direct embodiments of the planet itself while gods are copies of natural phenomena created by human worship. Her authority was even noted to work on BB despite her having the power of the Primordial Goddess and becoming one with the Moon Cell. It's only due to the nature of the Moon Cell that takes legends literally that gods have more power (not authority) than the original natural phenomena in the real world.


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## Featherine (Jul 26, 2015)

philharmonic21 said:


> The how exactly would it be translated?
> 
> If it doesn't say bring down and its not implying it due to mentioning the 1/6 Power/ability reduction  in the same breath as the Amaterasu vs Arc discussion + her power level then does it just say Arc stands a chance against Amaterasu without any reference too anything else?




*Spoiler*: __ 








- EXTRA、CCCだけの話なら、金色白面を『どれほど勝率が低くとも撃破できる状況にできる』のは彼女ぐらいである。
- EXTRA, CCC dake no hanashi nara, kiniro hakumen wo『dorehodo shouritsu ga hikuku tomo gekiha dekiru joukyou ni dekiru』no ha kanojo gurai de aru.
- If we're talking strictly about EXTRA and CCC then the only character who would be in a position to defeat the Golden Fair Face* would be her (彼女 referring to Arc) even though the chances clearly wouldn't be in her favor.
*白面 hakumen can mean white face, but it has the meaning of beauty most of the time.

That's it, no weakening mentioned or anything. I never said she would defeat her, she'd lose much more often than not, but she is at least at a level where she is considered to have a fighting chance. And THAT says a lot about her powers.



philharmonic21 said:


> I'm confused, what does Amaterasu being hit with a Moon base Authority mean that her authority is higher than Amaterasu (does that mean that Arc would ignore whatever Sun based authority she had)?


Nevermind, imagined stuff:
- そうはいっても正直に戻ればチート級になるのは間違いない。舞台が月であるなら、あらゆる対象...

Doesn't seem like there's any restriction aside from where she has to be for it to work. I still think Amaterasu would no sell it though, being higher-ranked than Arc. That's like people claiming things would automatically work on a stronger opponent because it's stated to "work against everything".

EDIT: And I actually made a mistake here


> Aランクサーヴァント：　１００
> 
> 一尾：　９
> 二尾：　８１
> ...


It's 645k+

Considering an A-rank servant would probably be someone like Siegfried, with powerful Noble Phantasms (A+ Balmung IIRC ?) and good all-around stats. Imagine that x645k at bare minimum... And that's going with the "she uses her stats/6 power despite it not being mentioned in the passage" thing.


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## Ausar (Jul 26, 2015)

Also, @Featherine, here's the original text from Strange Fake with Ea being strengthened by the other NPs:



On another note, I wonder how Harpe would fare against Arc:

Harpe
 User: Gilgamesh

 A divine sword from Greek mythology. One of the Noble Phantasms owned by Gilgamesh. It has a special shape similar to a scythe, with the cutting edge on the inside of the blade. It also has the power to negate the “undying” attribute. The hero Perseus received the sword from Hermes, so that he could exterminate the snake-haired witch Medusa. The legend goes that Perseus approached Medusa – who would turn everybody that looked at her into stone – by using a mirrored shield, and then cut off her head with Harpe while she slept. Because Perseus returned Harpe to Hermes once the task was completed, it can be considered an “Anti-Medusa” weapon.

ハルペー
使用者：ギルガメッシュ
　ギリシャ神話に登场する神剣。ギルガメッシュが所蔵する宝具のひとつ。鎌のような特殊な形状をしていて、 内側に刃が付いている。また、この剣には不死属性を無効にする力があるといわれている。髪の毛が蛇となって いる魔女メデューサの退治に向かう英雄ペルセウスに、オリンポス十二神のヘルメスが与えた。ペルセウスは、 見たものすべてを石に変えてしまうメデューサに対して、鏡の盾を使って近づき、眠っているメデューサの首を ハルペーで切り落としたと言われている。その後ペルセウスはハルペーをヘルメスに返還したため、対メデュー サ専用武器と言える存在となっている。


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 26, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Doesn't seem like there's any restriction aside from where she has to be for it to work. I still think Amaterasu would no sell it though, being higher-ranked than Arc. That's like people claiming things would automatically work on a stronger opponent because it's stated to "work against everything".



You know, this is wrong:



			
				Fate/Complete Material IV said:
			
		

> 臥藤門司はバーサーカーを神と崇める変人マスター。彼は様々な宗教観を持つ人物で、話が通じない。バーサーカーは本来"真祖"という地球の精霊だが、臥藤の"彼女＝神"という勘違いにより星から神へと格を貶められ、能力を上手く発揮できない。戦闘では重力で攻撃する宝具を使い、大ダメージを発生させる。



It's apparently not necessary to translate it since you seem to know Japanese, but to make it clear it states True Ancestors are Planet-class spirits. So please refrain from spreading false info.


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## philharmonic21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Featherine said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But isn't that right after it's mentioned that she's on the same broken tier as CCC top tiers with her sanity and reduction authority that even BB can't escape from? It seems to imply (and going off your translation) that its saying that Arc has something that they other don't which allows her to stand a chance (which seems to be the authority).

Though I'm not really sure what the argument is since she was already compared to CCC top tiers in the first place (meaning arguing her powerlevel is pointless since that means she shits all over people weaker than those top tiers anyway), and that she can do better against Amaterasu than any other top tier and apparently some people exceed her ability to One Up them with the Ultimate One.


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## Featherine (Jul 26, 2015)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> You know, this is wrong:
> It's apparently not necessary to translate it since you seem to know Japanese, but to make it clear it states True Ancestors are Planet-class spirits. So please refrain from spreading false info.



You do know your own quote talks about how Gatou was WRONG about treating her like a God ? And that due to this MISUNDERSTANDING she became shit ? 
It says she's a "バーサー カーは本来"真祖"という地球の精霊" ... A spirit of the Earth.

She says it herself anyway, that she isn't a God, she's more of a Legendary Soul...

*Spoiler*: __ 










"Spreading false info"


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 26, 2015)

Please read the whole quote. It says Gatou's misconceptions downgraded her rank from that of a Planet to that of a God. This means True Ancestors are higher ranked than Divine Spirits. The particular scene from the screens you posted already made it clear but this is as explicit as you can get.


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## Featherine (Jul 26, 2015)

Meh, if you listen to Nasu she's part everything, he even said once that she classifies more as a fairy:


> 余談ではあるが、本物の妖精は人間にも知覚できるほどの規模になると精霊と呼ばれる。某白い吸血鬼はこちらに属するとか。



It's the first time I hear Planet spirits > Gods. Sounds kinda weird, but alright.

Doesn't change anything about the fact it's doubtful that her stats-reducing ability would work since Amaterasu is canonically stronger than her.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 26, 2015)

It' shouldn't really be weird though. Gods are fake natural phenomena given form by human worship while True Ancestors are true natural phenomena given form by the planet itself. It's that rule the Nasuverse has about originals being superior to fakes in quality.


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## BreakFlame (Jul 26, 2015)

I am not by any means complaining, because this is really the type of discussion this forum should have, but it is kind of amusing how we went from the original topic to Gil vs Arc.


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## manidk (Jul 26, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> I am not by any means complaining, because this is really the type of discussion this forum should have, but it is kind of amusing how we went from the original topic to Gil vs Arc.



Welcome to Type-Moon threads.

They almost always end up like this.


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