# British Muslim who entered Miss Universe contest receives death threat



## DisgustingIdiot (Mar 20, 2011)

> When Shanna Bukhari decided she wanted to be the first Muslim to represent Britain in a global beauty pageant, she suspected the road ahead might not be smooth, but nothing could have prepared her for the abuse she received.
> 
> "I have felt in fear for my life," said the 24-year-old Miss Universe contestant. The attacks escalated last week when Bukhari received her first death threat.
> 
> ...


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## dummy plug (Mar 20, 2011)

i guess you can never really please everyone


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## Mexican God Lvl 3 (Mar 20, 2011)

Good. Lets try and keep this Muslim disease away from as many things as possible.


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## Fran (Mar 20, 2011)

> "I've had a few girls saying 'shame on you' or 'rot in hell'. But I'd like to know what their real issues are, so we could have a constructive debate."



More like, she'll reconstruct their face when she sees them.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 20, 2011)

she's confined to the rules of her country..

but i can't see how can she be a "good" Muslim like this.. seems more of a tag that exploits the issue to gather publicity.. 

which is much more worse than a Muslim girl posing half naked.. IMO..


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## Luxiano (Mar 20, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> Good. Lets try and keep this Muslim disease away from as many things as possible.



How kind , so a part of my family is a disease i guess.


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## Juno (Mar 20, 2011)

Khris said:


> she's confined to the rules of her country..
> 
> but i can't see how can she be a "good" Muslim like this.. seems more of a tag that exploits the issue to gather publicity..
> 
> which is much more worse than a Muslim girl posing half naked.. IMO..



There are plenty of contestants claiming to be christian who aren't questioned whether they're good or not, even though the rules about female modesty are pretty similar between the Bible and Quran. 

Unless you think only extreme fundamentalists get to claim membership, she's entitled to call herself a muslim. It shouldn't really be that big a deal.


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## Pilaf (Mar 20, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pxN0DuMAE[/YOUTUBE]

Sam Harris weighs in on Islam in the modern world. I've been negged before for posting similar things for some reason. I wouldn't consider his word inflammatory. He's speaking the truth.


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## olehoncho (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm curious.

How much modesty is actually commanded by Islam?  Because I heard that some of this is just barbaric tribal traditions, but I don't know where the lines are drawn.


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## sadated_peon (Mar 20, 2011)

Khris said:


> she's confined to the rules of her country..
> 
> but i can't see how can she be a "good" Muslim like this.. seems more of a tag that exploits the issue to gather publicity..
> 
> which is much more worse than a Muslim girl posing half naked.. IMO..



Of course, you're too worried about being called out for disapproving what she is doing. So you instead attack her "motives" so that you can try and avoid criticism of your disapproval, and yet at the same time still attack her. 

Stay classy.


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## Xyloxi (Mar 20, 2011)

We need to rid all forms of intolerance out of our society, personally I dislike the idea of beauty pagents, it seems demeaning to women and it gives young girls some role models which aren't very suitable, in the case of the generic dumb anorexic model. Obviously this woman is different as she is a graduate and not a bimbo, I don't see why someone would care that someone born here could represent the country. White supremacists and Islamists need to fuck right off.


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## psycheofthewoods (Mar 20, 2011)

What she's doing is noone else's is business.


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## stream (Mar 20, 2011)

oléhonchô said:


> I'm curious.
> 
> How much modesty is actually commanded by Islam?  Because I heard that some of this is just barbaric tribal traditions, but I don't know where the lines are drawn.



Depends of who you ask to. Some Muslim husbands claim they never saw the face of their wife, after many years of living together  From what I understand, though, this is so extreme that even the most rabid clerics do not ask for it.

The problem is that local clerics tend to decide what is exactly commanded by Islam. In Afghanistan, showing any part of the face is bad. I some places, the eyes are ok, but not the mouth and the nose. Then in some places, you can show the whole face, as long as you hide the hair. Sometimes you can show your neck, sometimes not. Sometimes the veil has to cover the shoulders and hide the shape of the body.

50 years ago, you could also find pretty big differences on what was acceptable or not in various Christian countries...

Anyway, no one can force her to submit to the rules of her religion, whatever they are. This brings a thought: People can normally chose which religion they are, even though religions tend to claim they can call the shots and expel people who do not obey the rules.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 20, 2011)

Juno said:


> There are plenty of contestants claiming to be christian who aren't questioned whether they're good or not, even though the rules about female modesty are pretty similar between the Bible and Quran.
> 
> Unless you think only extreme fundamentalists get to claim membership, she's entitled to call herself a muslim. It shouldn't really be that big a deal.



i know that a christian posing half naked isn't a "good" christian as well..

but like i said there's a reason i said that.. its great publicity.. 

trust me, i've seen muslim girls do much more worse stuff.. its that she's using the fact that she's muslim thats bugging me..




sadated_peon said:


> Of course, you're too worried about being called out for disapproving what she is doing. So you instead attack her "motives" so that you can try and avoid criticism of your disapproval, and yet at the same time still attack her.
> 
> Stay classy.



i can disapprove or approve anything and nobody should care.. its my opinion.. i don't care if she's posing naked..

but i do disapprove that she's getting attention because of it..

come at me..


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## Kittan (Mar 20, 2011)

You basically receive death threats for everything.


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## kakashi4ever (Mar 20, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> Good. Lets try and keep this Muslim disease away from as many things as possible.



look whoe's talking??  
Im sorry but what is mexico?? do they have any kind of special benefits like oil or gas.or have they ever been donates or help any other countries in the world??


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## kakashi4ever (Mar 20, 2011)

Kittan said:


> You basically receive death threats for everything.



I guess this kind of people doesn't have anything to do but sending threaten messages .


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## Xyloxi (Mar 20, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> look whoe's talking??
> Im sorry but what is mexico?? do they have any kind of special benefits like oil or gas.or have they ever been donates or help any other countries in the world??



First of all, MG lives in the US. Second, Mexico is the third largest supplier of oil, that and most of the fuel used domestically is natural gas. Mexico is also a democracy with human rights which aren't dire, that and their GDP is over twice that of Saudi Arabia and it's HDI is very similar.


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## blueblip (Mar 20, 2011)

^Right, except it's about as safe as war zone in some parts.

Get off your high horse. No place is perfect, some worse than others. Mexico is hardly a poster child for a successful country, especially if a large number of the local population considers that illegally crossing a border is safer and more productive than staying back at home and trying to make a living.

Hell, I'm from India, and so I'm fully aware that having decent GDP or claiming to be a democracy means jack shit in countries like mine and Mexico because the fact is that a good chunk of both countries are in terrible condition. There's a reason people are calling for dropping GDP as a measure of how successful a country is.

Sure, Saudi's a shitty place to live, but I doubt you would know or care if it was otherwise. After all, it's easier to believe those damn Muslims suck.


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## BassGS (Mar 20, 2011)

Eh, I feel like the covering in Islam is outdated. A women should be able to dress the way she wants in the modern world. If someone who is a Muslim doesn't like what she is doing because she is exposing herself that is doing nothing but causing more women to leave their religion. People are too frantic nowadays. Chill, no one needs to die.


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## OutlawJohn (Mar 20, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> Good. Lets try and keep this Muslim disease away from as many things as possible.



 Not sure if joking?

But on a serious note, good of her. I'd stand by her whether she chooses to continue, or to drop out. I'm not a particular fan of beauty pageants, but if she goes through with it, she could inspire some of the female Muslim community; teach them they don't have to conform to the expectations of their families, or their society.


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## Evil Ghost Ninja (Mar 20, 2011)

OutlawJohn said:


> Not sure if joking?


 
You shouldn't take anything he says to seriously


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## Momoka (Mar 20, 2011)

Lifs sucks that way :/


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## kazuri (Mar 20, 2011)

Miss universe contest is such a joke.


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## DisgustingIdiot (Mar 20, 2011)

Dem aliens be ugly.


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## kakashi4ever (Mar 20, 2011)

ohh she is really Miss universe pek


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## Bill_gates (Mar 20, 2011)

She's kinda cute.


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## Ennoea (Mar 20, 2011)

This isn't new, Muslim girls have been getting death threats due to Beauty Pageants for decades now. Honestly it's not such a big deal.


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## ExoSkel (Mar 20, 2011)

I've got nothing against on you muslims or your religion or anything, but your religion is nothing *BUT* peace and love.


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## Mexican God Lvl 3 (Mar 20, 2011)

Bill_gates said:


> She's kinda cute.



That look in her eyes says shes ready to blow herself up for her religion at any time.


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## Ceria (Mar 20, 2011)

Kittan said:


> You basically receive death threats for everything.



what kind of people would want to live like that?


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## Talon. (Mar 20, 2011)

> The censure has come from various quarters, ranging from Muslims who claim that she is denigrating the name of Islam, to white supremacists who say that an Asian cannot represent the UK, *and to women who condemn beauty pageants as an affront to feminism.*



This part is to be expected.

But everything else (especially the white supremacist groups, which i didnt expect.) is fuckin bullshit. I think the more Conservative Muslims need to face the facts: they need to move forward with the rest of the world.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 20, 2011)

Britain seems pretty dangerous for muslims  We had a Muslim winner just recently


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 20, 2011)

ol?honch? said:


> I'm curious.
> 
> How much modesty is actually commanded by Islam?  Because I heard that some of this is just barbaric tribal traditions, but I don't know where the lines are drawn.


Who gives a fuck what Islam says, shes a grown woman.


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## Farih (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm conflicted...as a Muslim it's weird to see another Muslim girl parade in bathing suits.

On the other hand if she wants to embrace and use her sexuality and looks for her own benefit, more power to her.


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## Miss Fortune (Mar 20, 2011)

Religion... fuck everyone's life...


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## Pseudo (Mar 20, 2011)

So are these guys the radical Muslims or normals? Because if they're the normal ones the isn't much difference between these guys and Osama's boys.


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## Terra Branford (Mar 20, 2011)

This is pretty old...unless it happened again? Or is this a separate winner? Because the article sounds so familiar to the last one. 

Its sad she's been/being threatened for showing her beauty. Its a shame really...


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 20, 2011)

Pilaf said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pxN0DuMAE[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Sam Harris weighs in on Islam in the modern world. I've been negged before for posting similar things for some reason. I wouldn't consider his word inflammatory. He's speaking the truth.



I agree with Sam Harris, mostly.

Also, the contestant looks like Kim Kardassian.


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## T4R0K (Mar 20, 2011)

Farih said:


> I'm conflicted...as a Muslim it's weird to see another Muslim girl parade in bathing suits.



Never went to the beach ?

Anyway, look, some posters here that do NOT condamn her said that pageant contests are plain dull and stupid anyway.

Now, I've been thinking : 

For many muslim women, the veil is a prison, to many other muslim women, it's a way to affirm their faith, a liberty of sorts.

Now, some can say that pageants are indecent exposure or simply futile self-satisfaction of being "the cutest". But maybe to her, it's a liberty, a freedom of showing who she is and fight for her right to live her life as she sees fit, not surrendering to someone else's opinion.

Many muslims should stop trying to tell everyone how to live their lives. You wanna be pure and faithful to God ? Good for you, leave these with other plans alone.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 20, 2011)

Farih said:


> I'm conflicted...as a Muslim it's weird to see another Muslim girl parade in bathing suits.
> 
> On the other hand if she wants to embrace and use her sexuality and looks for her own benefit, more power to her.


God forbid someone wear a bathing suit!


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## Terra Branford (Mar 20, 2011)

> I'm conflicted...as a Muslim it's weird to see another Muslim girl parade in bathing suits.


How is it weird to see a woman (_regardless of religion_) wear a bathing suit or any other clothing? 

The body is beautiful, its a work of art. Why should she hide herself because of you or some other Muslim, think you can set up her standard of living? Tell her that if she dresses differently she's immodest or less faithful to her God?

Absurd! 



> But maybe to her, it's a liberty, a freedom of showing who she is and fight for her right to live her life as she sees fit, not surrendering to someone else's opinion.


Well put, T4R0K!


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## Farih (Mar 20, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> How is it weird to see a woman (_regardless of religion_) wear a bathing suit or any other clothing?



It's not regardless of religion.  I said for me personally it's weird to see other *Muslim* girls dress in bathing suits only because it's something I'm not used to seeing.



> The body is beautiful, its a work of art. Why should she hide herself because of you or some other Muslim, think you can set up her standard of living? Tell her that if she dresses differently she's immodest or less faithful to her God?
> 
> Absurd!



Is my post not being read...?  I said I feel conflicted because on one hand it's weird for me, but on the other hand good for her.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Mar 20, 2011)

She is a better human being than the bigots that are against her and she sets a good example by doing something that challenges their prevalent backwards beliefs about how women, muslims, muslim women, colored people etc should behave.


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## Inuhanyou (Mar 20, 2011)

A major backlash against Fari  but overreactions are prone in the cafe

maybe "parading" wasn't the best word that could have been used, but i got your point luv


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## Terra Branford (Mar 21, 2011)

Farih said:


> It's not regardless of religion.  I said for me personally it's weird to see other *Muslim* girls dress in bathing suits only because it's something I'm not used to seeing.


Um...yea it is regardless of religion. Be she Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindu or anything else. 

But please, explain to me why it is weird to see a woman dressing as she wants and expressing her freedoms even though she's a Muslim. Please elaborate on it.  



Farih said:


> Is my post not being read...?  I said I feel conflicted because on one hand it's weird for me, but on the other hand good for her.



It is being read. I'd still like to know why you find it weird to see a woman dressing so as a Muslim.



> A major backlash against Fari but overreactions are prone in the cafe


Overreaction? Do you just randomly pick words to use or have you been reading different posts? No one is overreacting to anything. I simply asked a question and continue to ask the same question.

Overreaction would be me typing in all cap about how wrong it comes off as or is.


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## BassGS (Mar 21, 2011)

You know the reason why, stop being a bitch. You are an ex muslim.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 21, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> A major backlash against Fari  but overreactions are prone in the cafe
> 
> maybe "parading" wasn't the best word that could have been used, but i got your point luv


The overreaction is acting as if bathing suits are something to be ashamed of.


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## BassGS (Mar 21, 2011)

It's not something to be ashamed of but you know how Muslims view modesty and showing too much skin is looked down upon. Chill damn it.


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## Razgriez (Mar 21, 2011)

Believe it or not guys but some people have been raised to the point where they find it strange someone would dress in a bathing suit. Its just the nature of the beast and degrading them no matter how fun it may be isnt going to necessarily sway their opinion on the matter.


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## Mael (Mar 21, 2011)

I can see that not only Farih's words are being taken way too seriously, but this thread going in an ultimately stupid direction.

The death threats are irrational, period end.


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## Psycho (Mar 21, 2011)

my opinion on the direction this thread is headed:


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## Syed (Mar 21, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> That look in her eyes says shes ready to blow herself up for her religion at any time.



Seriously? Wow you're a dick.


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## Mexican God Lvl 3 (Mar 21, 2011)

Syed said:


> Seriously? Wow you're a dick.



Dont blame me for her being a Muslim. Its in their nature to want to blow up for their religion.

Just ask White Tiger.


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## Razgriez (Mar 21, 2011)

Syed said:


> Seriously? Wow you're a dick.



MG is an attention whore. Its best to just ignore him.


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## Mexican God Lvl 3 (Mar 21, 2011)

Shut up Raz, you have red hair. You are below everything. Learn your place in the food chain.


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## BassGS (Mar 21, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> Dont blame me for her being a Muslim. Its in their nature to want to blow up for their religion.
> 
> Just ask White Tiger.



Wow dude, it's official you are a troll.


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## Syed (Mar 21, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> Dont blame me for her being a Muslim. *Its in their nature to want to blow up for their religion.*
> 
> Just ask White Tiger.



U do realize the Tamil tigers were the first ones to strap explosives on themselves and kill innocents with them? 

They were Hindu. Does that mean every Hindu has a nature to blow themselves up for Hinduism?


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## Razgriez (Mar 21, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> Shut up Raz, you have red hair. You are below everything. Learn your place in the food chain.



You mad?... Bro?:ho

Yo guys. Stop feeding the troll. Keep it simple and counter trollish.


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## Mexican God Lvl 3 (Mar 21, 2011)

Syed said:


> U do realize the Tamil tigers were the first ones to strap explosives on themselves and kill innocents with them?
> 
> They were Hindu. Does that mean every Hindu has a nature to blow themselves up for Hinduism?



Havent heard of them blowing themselves up for anything in a while now. Must have not been in their nature.

This thread is going of course now. Pls Stay on topic.


Razgriez said:


> You mad?... Bro?:ho
> 
> Yo guys. Stop feeding the troll. Keep it simple and counter trollish.



I aint even mad


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## Terra Branford (Mar 21, 2011)

BassGS said:


> You know the reason why, stop being a bitch. You are an ex muslim.



I don't appreciate that word, Bass 

I was asking a question, is all. It shouldn't matter if you are Muslim. If you think a woman dressing to show her body or differently is weird or somehow wrong or immodest, then that's just wrong. You (not you in general) have built off a view from a religion that was during a time of war, violence, sexism and mistreatment like all others during that time.

To continue to think in the fashion of those from 600 CE is just really...well, primitive thinking.



BassGS said:


> It's not something to be ashamed of but you know how Muslims view modesty and showing too much skin is looked down upon. Chill damn it.



And therein lies why I asked the question.

I would like to know why he or other Muslims, think their view of Modesty, is "the" view of modesty. It is incredibly wrong and rude, to think you know what modesty is. Clothing doesn't make modesty, its the person. And women should be able to wear as she wants without some other person telling her she isn't Modest, a slut (etc etc) or that she isn't faithful to her God if she so has one to follow. Its highly insulting and is incredibly sexist.

Its this kind of thinking that caused the death threats. A lot of people can't keep their nose out of other people's business to the point where they become animals.

_That_ is why I was asking


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## Syed (Mar 21, 2011)

Razgriez said:


> You mad?... Bro?:ho
> 
> Yo guys. Stop feeding the troll. Keep it simple and counter trollish.



It's hard to considering the guy's a border hopper


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## olehoncho (Mar 21, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Who gives a fuck what Islam says, shes a grown woman.


And I fully support her ability to make her own choices.

I'm merely curious about the actual modesty standards Islam has.  And how pre-Islamic clothing/standards were carried through into early and even modern Islam.

ex: the Burqa predates Islam by quite a bit, as a woman's desert traveling cloak.  So to what degree has it continued as a practical garment and to what degree is it still used more out of tradition than religious compliance to standards of modesty?

Furthermore, to what degree do Muslims have the mindset of being "Their brother's keeper"?  Is it their responsibility to make sure that other (muslims) follow the commandments, on a community basis?  Where does personal choice and self-accountability enter the equation?

Just my curiosities because I'm not all that familiar with Islam.


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## zuul (Mar 21, 2011)

I don't like beauty contest since it's clearly linked to the objectification of women but death threats is taking it a bit too far. XD


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## WT (Mar 21, 2011)

There are two places to a person's life: The public and private. Women/Men should be able to dress the way they want privately, however, we being sophisticated animals, should adhere by rules and regulations when dressing at a society level. Anyone who disagrees with this is primitive. Being humans and thus prone to errors, we have miscalculated the extent to which we can "exercise our freedom" unknowing that exercising our freedom "too much" will usually limit someone else's or make themselves some sort of a target.

Also, death threats are going too far.


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## Karsh (Mar 21, 2011)

Everyone being a total prick to her is a cretin.
They have no right to tell a grown-ass woman what to do especially considering she isn't inflicting anything upon anyone else with this and sending her death threats, whether it be feminazis, allahfags or whitetrash? Really people?
You can have your opinion about whatever the fuck you want even if it's blinded by their biased categorizations, but to publicly and directly wish harm upon her is so sad, especially considering it's the UK.

You can say whatever you want about a pageant, but ultimately these official winners help out and are spokespersons in good causes around the globe, but I guess none of these pricks ever considered that.

Poor girl I hope this drama will leave her alone and that people will see her for what she is: a good PERSON.


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## sadated_peon (Mar 21, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> There are two places to a person's life: The public and private. Women/Men should be able to dress the way they want privately, however, we being sophisticated animals, should adhere by rules and regulations when dressing at a society level. Anyone who disagrees with this is primitive. Being humans and thus prone to errors, we have miscalculated the extent to which we can "exercise our freedom" unknowing that exercising our freedom "too much" will usually limit someone else's or make themselves some sort of a target.
> 
> Also, death threats are going too far.



I agree completely, women who wear a bag over themselves with only their eyes showing are "primitives", the same goes for those who feel the necessity to cover their head in public, these "primitives" have no place in public society.


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## Psych (Mar 21, 2011)

> But not all the abuse is from men: Bukhari has also attracted opprobium from feminists. "I've had a few girls saying 'shame on you' or 'rot in hell'. But I'd like to know what their real issues are, so we could have a constructive debate."



Good luck trying to have a constructive debate with radical religious nut-jobs.

I feel sorry for this girl.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Mar 21, 2011)

ol?honch? said:


> And I fully support her ability to make her own choices.
> 
> I'm merely curious about the actual modesty standards Islam has.  And how pre-Islamic clothing/standards were carried through into early and even modern Islam.
> 
> ...



*The burqa is pretty much entirely cultural and has no actual basis in Islam (as in, it's not required), despite what people will tell you. Imo the same applies for the hijab as well, but most muslims won't hear a shred of that. *


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## xpeed (Mar 21, 2011)

Who the heck throws a brick at a nine year old girl?  WTF?

You know what?  Good for her.  About time there was a Muslim female that shows she doesn't give a crap about Sharia law.


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## Naklin (Mar 21, 2011)

I agree with what zuul said
only reason why this is news is because she's a Muslim who's religion goes against what she's doing and it gives people yet another opportunity to bash Islam


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## Juno (Mar 21, 2011)

xpeed said:


> You know what?  Good for her.  About time there was a Muslim female that shows she doesn't give a crap about Sharia law.



There are quite a lot of muslim 'females' who don't give a shit about sharia. You honestly think this woman is the first?


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## CrazyMoronX (Mar 21, 2011)

Would tap that.


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## zuul (Mar 21, 2011)

CrimsonMoon said:


> I agree with what zuul said
> only reason why this is news is because she's a Muslim who's religion goes against what she's doing and it gives people yet another opportunity to bash Islam



In fact I'm actually campaigning for males to be as much as objectified as females in mainstream media and not only the gay magazines.

it's time us straight women get our eye candies. 
And it's time our regular straifght men to feel as much pressure as us women by unattainable beauty standard in the mass media.

Or no eye candy for either men and women. Gender equality FTW !!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 21, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> There are two places to a person's life: The public and private. Women/Men should be able to dress the way they want privately, however, we being sophisticated animals, should adhere by rules and regulations when dressing at a society level. Anyone who disagrees with this is primitive. Being humans and thus prone to errors, we have miscalculated the extent to which we can "exercise our freedom" unknowing that exercising our freedom "too much" will usually limit someone else's or make themselves some sort of a target.
> 
> Also, death threats are going too far.




The only reasonable part of that was the end, and even then telling her anything is too far.



CrimsonMoon said:


> I agree with what zuul said
> only reason why this is news is because she's a Muslim who's religion  goes against what she's doing and it gives people yet another  opportunity to bash Islam



Well Islam gives people a lot of good reasons to bash it and the reasonable Muslims typically sit by quietly when comments like the above get said.


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## kakashi4ever (Mar 23, 2011)

blueblip said:


> ^Right, except it's about as safe as war zone in some parts.
> 
> Get off your high horse. No place is perfect, some worse than others. Mexico is hardly a poster child for a successful country, especially if a large number of the local population considers that illegally crossing a border is safer and more productive than staying back at home and trying to make a living.
> 
> ...


 
Indians are the most barbarian people in the world..Honor killings are acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce?even from an abusive husband?or (allegedly committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life.


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## Gilgamesh (Mar 23, 2011)

> But not all the abuse is from men: Bukhari has also attracted opprobium from feminists. "I've had a few girls saying 'shame on you' or 'rot in hell'. But I'd like to know what their real issues are, so we could have a constructive debate."



Feminists confirmed for ugly bitches


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## Xyloxi (Mar 23, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> Indians are the most barbarian people in the world..Honor killings are acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life.


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## sadated_peon (Mar 23, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> Indians are the most barbarian people in the world..Honor killings are acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce?even from an abusive husband?or (allegedly committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life.


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## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

*Shanna is feeding falsehoods to the media to get publicity*

A lot of rubbish has been written about Shanna Bukhari and the supposed 'death threats'.

It was originally a supposed 'death threat' (singular) that then became 'death threats'.

It fits the victim-hood image that Shanna wishes to create - and at the same time she wants to be seen as a leader, a role model.

She received NO death threats - in fact the original Guardain article does say as much.

This blog here: 

Have a read through it.


----------



## Kitsukaru (Mar 23, 2011)

> an Asian cannot represent the UK,



It pains me how they know nothing of their history


----------



## sadated_peon (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> A lot of rubbish has been written about Shanna Bukhari and the supposed 'death threats'.
> 
> It was originally a supposed 'death threat' (singular) that then became 'death threats'.
> 
> ...


I wounder whose dupe this is?

I find it funny how the Muslim community is trying to demonize her. It is so ironic to hear about how Muslims don't "pressure" women to wear a veil, or marry, etc. 

Yet as soon as a Muslim woman actually decides to do these things she is targeted and attacked by the Muslim community. 

It's nice to have such a great example of how full of shit Muslims are when they try and claim there is no pressure of women, that they free to choose how they dress.


----------



## psycheofthewoods (Mar 23, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> I wounder whose dupe this is?
> 
> I find it funny how the Muslim community is trying to demonize her. It is so ironic to hear about how Muslims don't "pressure" women to wear a veil, or marry, etc.
> 
> ...



How many people are attacking her and complaining? I don't know a single person who's complained or cared about what she's doing. 

You people seem to be under the impression that there's been a huge uproar in the Muslim community about this. Sure there are a couple of Muslims trolls on the Internet who seem to have nothing better to do curse her on her Facebook page. That does not mean they represent the sentiments of all Muslims. 

Most really don't care. This isn't the first time a Muslim woman has taken part in a beauty pageant. She can do what she likes.


----------



## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> I wounder whose dupe this is?
> 
> I find it funny how the Muslim community is trying to demonize her. It is so ironic to hear about how Muslims don't "pressure" women to wear a veil, or marry, etc.
> 
> ...


The problem is that she makes the point that :

a. she is a Muslim

(That's fine)

b. That she is wilfully doing something that is against Islam

(So why make the point you are a Muslim?)

c. She creates a fuss by saying she has received death threats

(When she hasn't - and this paints her own community - Muslims - in a bad light)

d. She wants to encourage Muslim women to do as she is doing i.e. against Islam

(An unwise move I would have thought)

e. And now she has the spotlight she craves (google her name) and a two page spread in the UK's biggest selling daily the potential for her to do good - such as draw attention to the abuse of women of all religions in Pakistan - she just prattles on about how beauty is only skin deep etc etc.

This is a wasted opportunity - PLUS she openly supports a charity (good thing) that is for Hindu children (a wasted opportunity to help Muslim children!)

What is so bad is the deceit as she is pandering to Muslims ('I am a Muslim' - subtext, vote for me) and the non-Muslim feminists ('Look how brave I am in standing up for principles') and the anti-Muslims (look how I am doing something not permitted by Islam) when in fact she COULD:

a. withdraw and become a pious Muslim (good for Islam and other Muslims)

b. openly say she is not a Muslim anyway as she does not believe but she IS a Pakistani and she wants to draw attention to the wrongs that go on there.

Instead she just promotes herself.

Very poor.


----------



## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

psycheofthewoods said:


> How many people are attacking her and complaining? I don't know a single person who's complained or cared about what she's doing.
> 
> You people seem to be under the impression that there's been a huge uproar in the Muslim community about this. Sure there are a couple of Muslims trolls on the Internet who seem to have nothing better to do curse her on her Facebook page. That does not mean they represent the sentiments of all Muslims.
> 
> Most really don't care. This isn't the first time a Muslim woman has taken part in a beauty pageant. She can do what she likes.


That's another example of Bukhari's duplicity and media-management. She claims 300 messages a day on her Facebook page (which she now doesn't have).

This was then changed to an average of 300 a day.

I went on her Facebook page for 2 days.

About 20 messages in total - that's all!

She just loves the puiblicity and boasts about how she has been offered a role in Bollywood etc.

This is Big Brother neediness....


----------



## sadated_peon (Mar 23, 2011)

psycheofthewoods said:


> How many people are attacking her and complaining? I don't know a single person who's complained or cared about what she's doing.
> 
> You people seem to be under the impression that there's been a huge uproar in the Muslim community about this. Sure there are a couple of Muslims trolls on the Internet who seem to have nothing better to do curse her on her Facebook page. That does not mean they represent the sentiments of all Muslims.
> 
> Most really don't care. This isn't the first time a Muslim woman has taken part in a beauty pageant. She can do what she likes.


So far every Muslim I have talked to about this is attacking her in some way. 

If you want a direct example you can look at the post I responded to. Or go to the website linked which is a website dedicated to attacking her and defending threats made against her person. 

Mostly what I see from the Muslims community is not a uproar but instead a persistent negative attitude about her personally. A culture of shunning, rejection and disapproval.


----------



## psycheofthewoods (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> The problem is that she makes the point that :
> 
> a. she is a Muslim
> 
> ...



Why should she do either? Why does it matter to you how she is living her life? Do you really think her participating in a pageant will really encourage other Muslim women to participate? It would only encourage women who see no problem with the beauty pageant thing in the first place, to participate. It won't have an effect on 'pious' Muslim women from 'pious' families.

Why does it matter that she supports a 'Hindu' charity? Atleast she's supporting some sort of charity and is helping people.

Perhaps if she participates in the pageant, she'll bring light to certain issues in Pakistan such as the abuse of women and minorities.

Fact is, we should all focus on our own lives and how _we_ can help other people rather than being bothered by what that woman does.

Also, we have no right to tell anyone that they should renounce their faith.




			
				sadated_peon said:
			
		

> So far every Muslim I have talked to about this is attacking her in some way.
> 
> If you want a direct example you can look at the post I responded to. Or go to the website linked which is a website dedicated to attacking her and defending threats made against her person.
> 
> Mostly what I see from the Muslims community is not a uproar but instead a persistent negative attitude about her personally. A culture of shunning, rejection and disapproval.



Hmmm, well this is the Internet. You'll always find people with something to complain about. Most of the people I know seem pretty indifferent about the whole thing. They don't really approve of beauty pageants but they don't object to her participating and know that what she does is not their business.

I've seen the link. Whoever created has way too much time on their hands. :/

I agree that there will be people who won't approve of her participation in the pageant because what she's doing doesn't conform to their view of how women should behave or dress. They seem to think what she's doing is their business. Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done about it. Their views are hard to change. I doubt most of these people would advocate death threats. The article seems to suggest she received one death threat. Probably from some lunatic, I suspect.


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## sadated_peon (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> The problem is that she makes the point that :
> 
> a. she is a Muslim
> 
> (That's fine)


you don't sound fine with it. 



Ayeesha said:


> b. That she is wilfully doing something that is against Islam
> 
> (So why make the point you are a Muslim?)


Quote her. 



Ayeesha said:


> c. She creates a fuss by saying she has received death threats
> 
> (When she hasn't - and this paints her own community - Muslims - in a bad light)


Yes, she has. 

The community put's itself in a bad light by DOING having it's member threaten her. That she doesn't remain quiet about this a abuse is a good thing. 

Demanding that the abuse keep quiet about their abuse as to not put the community in a bad light is abhorrent and indicative a community complicit that abuse. 


Ayeesha said:


> d. She wants to encourage Muslim women to do as she is doing i.e. against Islam
> 
> (An unwise move I would have thought)


She dosen't believe it is against Islam, and encouraging other women to think for themselves is a good thing. NOT a bad thing. 



Ayeesha said:


> e. And now she has the spotlight she craves (google her name) and a two page spread in the UK's biggest selling daily the potential for her to do good - such as draw attention to the abuse of women of all religions in Pakistan - she just prattles on about how beauty is only skin deep etc etc.
> 
> This is a wasted opportunity - PLUS she openly supports a charity (good thing) that is for Hindu children (a wasted opportunity to help Muslim children!)


bwhahah, I this is exactly what I am talking about. 
Thanks for proving my point. 
seriously you think this is a defense? You couldn't have made your bigotry clearer. 



Ayeesha said:


> What is so bad is the deceit as she is pandering to Muslims ('I am a Muslim' - subtext, vote for me) and the non-Muslim feminists ('Look how brave I am in standing up for principles') and the anti-Muslims (look how I am doing something not permitted by Islam) when in fact she COULD:
> 
> a. withdraw and become a pious Muslim (good for Islam and other Muslims)
> 
> ...


This is your problem, you believe that she is not a muslim, and therefore you are attacking her. You are unwilling to accept that her muslim faith allows her to participate and you attacker her because you don't want other to see her and have the freedom to believe the same. 

You are attacking her and trying to destroy her as a system of control NOT just to beat her down but to make sure that no other Muslim girl sees her. 

Yea, it's great to see you proving my point.


----------



## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

The link I made clearly explains that there was NO death threat - not even one.

You asked me some questions...

"Why should she do either? Why does it matter to you how she is living her life? "

It doesn't matter to me at all.

It doesn't really matter to me who wins a football match but if I may still pass comment as I am slightly interested in football.

"Do you really think her participating in a pageant will really encourage other Muslim women to participate? "

That's not the point - she is actively encouraging Muslims to behave unIslamically - which seems to me to eb a recipe for trouble.


"Why does it matter that she supports a 'Hindu' charity? Atleast she's supporting some sort of charity and is helping people."

yes but as she's a Muslim then surely it would be better....

My point is the overall hypocrisy of her.

If she renounces islam and says it is all rubbish - I do not care.
If she embraces it and says it is wonderful, that's fine too.

It is somewhat irritating if someone says one thing, behaves in contradiction to it - and gets huge publicity out of this
"Perhaps if she participates in the pageant, she'll bring light to certain issues in Pakistan such as the abuse of women and minorities."

she could do that now

"Fact is, we should all focus on our own lives and how we can help other people rather than being bothered by what that woman does."

I'm not bothered, irritated a bit and this is a discussion forum....

"Also, we have no right to tell anyone that they should renounce their faith."

Of course!


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## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

*Please be accurate in your post!*

So much of what you have written is incorrect.



sadated_peon said:


> you don't sound fine with it.
> 
> 
> Quote her.
> ...


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## Juno (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> The link I made clearly explains that there was NO death threat - not even one.



The link you gave is to a personal blog. Everything posted there is nasty and unsubstantiated. It's pure slander. Is it your blog by any chance? It has zero readers and commenters so I wonder how you found it or why you think it should carry more weight than several reputable newspapers that have confirmed the death threats. 

Crawl back beneath your rock.


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## Madchester (Mar 23, 2011)

You gotta love indians ragging on pakis and vice versa....you're both hell holes



Xyloxi said:


> but when would Pakistan ever elect a minority prime minister or a female president?



err.... the assassinated Benazir Bhutto was part-ethnically Kurdish AND a shia, both of which are paki minorities.

She was also held a small position known as the Prime Minister of Pakistan, elected on two separate occasions.



> At least India controls its territory as opposed to having the Taliban do so.



Except where China disputes territory, where the sikhs dispute territory in their separatist bid and where the kashmiris dispute.



Everyone has problems, I know you're a homo who likes to act as if you're sitting on a pedestal but I gotta say I laughed out loud reading your knee jerk hissy fit that you started off trying to play all cool. Never change, ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".), I enjoy having a laugh whenever I see your dumb posts.


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## psycheofthewoods (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> The link I made clearly explains that there was NO death threat - not even one.
> 
> You asked me some questions...
> 
> ...



If it doesn't matter to you why did you join this forum to complain about her? Did you make the blog too? If so-if it didn't matter to you, why'd you make a blog?



> "Do you really think her participating in a pageant will really encourage other Muslim women to participate? "
> 
> That's not the point - she is actively encouraging Muslims to behave unIslamically - which seems to me to eb a recipe for trouble.



She made one statement about this. She's not actively encouraging Muslims to participate just by that one statement. 

There are already plenty of Muslim actresses, models, beauty queens etc. Yet I haven't seen their profession or lifestyles having an enormous affect on most Muslim women. :/ What difference will it make if this one woman participates in the pageant?

Also, don't Muslims have their own sense of right and wrong? If they consider taking part in beauty pageants wrong, then why would they care what this woman says? How much 'trouble' would they get into just because of her one statement?




> "Why does it matter that she supports a 'Hindu' charity? Atleast she's supporting some sort of charity and is helping people."
> 
> yes but as she's a Muslim then surely it would be better....
> 
> ...



Atleast she's supporting a charity and helping children. It's not your business what charity she's supporting. It's still a good deed.

Also, isn't creating a blog against her and complaining about her on the Internet counteractive? _You're giving her even more publicity._ You don't want her to get more publicity right? Then stop complaining and tell everyone else to stop complaining and just ignore her.



> "Perhaps if she participates in the pageant, she'll bring light to certain issues in Pakistan such as the abuse of women and minorities."
> 
> she could do that now



Fine, then rather than complaining about her, why don't you try to contact her and ask her if she plans on bringing to light these issues?



> "Fact is, we should all focus on our own lives and how we can help other people rather than being bothered by what that woman does."
> 
> I'm not bothered, irritated a bit and this is a discussion forum....



You are bothered about what she's doing. Someone is bothered about what she's doing so much that they made a blog against her.

Why not make a blog about abuse of women and minorities in Pakistan? Why make a blog focusing on your hate for one woman?




> "Also, we have no right to tell anyone that they should renounce their faith."
> 
> Of course!



 You said you wished that she either give up the pageant or proclaim herself as a non-Muslim.

You'd rather she give up her faith than participate in a pageant.

Why don't you ask 'Muslim' terrorists to give up Islam because what they do is wrong? Why don't you ask the same to Muslim men who drink alcohol, eat pork, sleep around, murder, whatever..etc...?

Why should this woman give up her faith?


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## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

*Insults should never replace reason*



Juno said:


> The link you gave is to a personal blog. Everything posted there is nasty and unsubstantiated. It's pure slander. Is it your blog by any chance? It has zero readers and commenters so I wonder how you found it or why you think it should carry more weight than several reputable newspapers that have confirmed the death threats.
> 
> Crawl back beneath your rock.



Yes it is a personal blog that links to newspaper articles. I followed the links and reading the articles completely proves my case.

You say everything is nasty.

Wrong (again). There is a nice post there about learning about Islam.

You say everything is unsubstantiated.

Wrong (again). Everything is quoted is followed by a link to the original source.

It is not my blog.

It has zero readers etc - that is true. I suppose that is because it is very new. Even so that does not diminish the accuracy of the blog.

I found it because the link was posted elsewhere. I then reposted the link in some places as the blog makes similar arguments to mine (though substantiated every point) and it seemed simpler to refer people to that blog.

You say 'several reputable newspapers have confirmed the death threats'

Wrong (again). Not one has.

I see you have totally failed to substantiate every single thing you wrote (except the point about few visitors).

The point about rock and crawl etc only shows you use insults to replace reason.

You have made so many mistakes in your post. I warmly suggest that you think before you respond - if you do indeed respond.


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## Juno (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> Yes it is a personal blog that links to newspaper articles. I followed the links and reading the articles completely proves my case.
> 
> You say everything is nasty.
> 
> ...



No readers, no followers, and the author links to NF. The style of the posts match your posts here. The same strange use of 1 sentence per paragraph, and the same kind of language.

It's your blog.

In fact reading the oldest posts in that blog, you've been writing about this woman since before the death threats, and a lot of your comments about her are pretty damn threatening.

Are you in fact one of the people sending her threats? Or 'warnings' as you like to call them?


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## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

Interesting that none of the mistakes I highlighted have been corrected.

It is not my blog so the rest of your post is irrelevant.


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## Juno (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> Interesting that none of the mistakes I highlighted have been corrected.
> 
> It is not my blog so the rest of your post is irrelevant.



Don't be coy. It's pretty obvious. Maybe you don't realise how distinctive your writing style is. You're practically stalking this woman, and you made an account here purely to bash her and promote your own blog.


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## WT (Mar 23, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> I agree completely, women who wear a bag over themselves with only their eyes showing are "primitives", the same goes for those who feel the necessity to cover their head in public, these "primitives" have no place in public society.



There's never an upper limit to morality.

Besides, if it comes to identification purposes, I agree with the idea of only a headscarf existing.


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## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

I can only repeat that you have not corrected any of the mistakes I have highlighted - plus I cannot comment on the rest of your post for the reason stated.


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## Juno (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> I can only repeat that you have not corrected any of the mistakes I have highlighted - plus I cannot comment on the rest of your post for the reason stated.



Just admit it. You referenced your own blog. If you think the evidence you presented there stands up to scrutiny, why would you be ashamed of that?


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## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

You have asked me a question. I will answer it as best I can. I do think the evidence I have read in the blog stands up to scrutiny. I would see no reason to be ashamed of presenting that evidence or the blog - as in fact I have done here. But, it is not my blog.

Now you answer my question.

You made a number of mistakes in your post where you said I should crawl under a rock. Will you admit your numerous mistakes caused either by an inability to read a blog or a laziness to click links? Plus will you show me exactly where you see any evidence for the death threats you foolshly maintain she has received?


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## Xyloxi (Mar 23, 2011)

Madchester said:


> Everyone has problems, I know you're a homo who likes to act as if you're sitting on a pedestal but I gotta say I laughed out loud reading your knee jerk hissy fit that you started off trying to play all cool. Never change, ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".), I enjoy having a laugh whenever I see your dumb posts.



Yes, I made a mistake there, we're all wrong at some points. Dumb posts? Do give me some examples please, although I don't take the Caf? all that seriously for the most part. Oh, the prefered term is gay, who are you again?


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## sadated_peon (Mar 23, 2011)

white tiger said:
			
		

> There's never an upper limit to morality.
> 
> Besides, if it comes to identification purposes, I agree with the idea of only a headscarf existing.


Not sure what this first comment has to do with my post. 

Though by your second comment, I am guessing you missed the point of my post. 



			
				Ayeesha said:
			
		

> She says: 'I know what I am doing is not permitted in Islam'


That isn?t a quote. 
Show me a link to where she said this.
Not just someone CLAIMNG she said this.



			
				Ayeesha said:
			
		

> No she has not. I cannot quote a non-threat so you show me exactly where she has been threatened and what the threat said.


Read the first post



			
				Ayeesha said:
			
		

> She is encouraging MUSLIM (not 'other women') women to go against Islam.


Mainly because most ?other-women? don?t need the encouragement. 



			
				Ayeesha said:
			
		

> Explain your point. I know - as she does - that she is behaving unIslamically.


No, you claim that she is because she goes against what YOU believe is Islam. There is a difference between what YOU believe and what is.


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## Ayeesha (Mar 23, 2011)

It is a pity you have not agreed to my request to provide a link to where she has been threatened and what the threat said. In the Holy Quran it clearly says you should not behave as she is re bikini, competition etc. The bit about her doing something not permitted in Islam is a newspaper quoting what she said.


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## psycheofthewoods (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> It is a pity you have not agreed to my request to provide a link to where she has been threatened and what the threat said. In the Holy Quran it clearly says you should not behave as she is re bikini, competition etc. The bit about her doing something not permitted in Islam is a newspaper quoting what she said.



The point is _she's answerable to God for her own deeds_. It's none of your business. She doesn't have to answer to you or me or any other person. Why are you creating a fuss over this?


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## Juno (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> You have asked me a question. I will answer it as best I can. I do think the evidence I have read in the blog stands up to scrutiny. I would see no reason to be ashamed of presenting that evidence or the blog - as in fact I have done here. But, it is not my blog.
> 
> Now you answer my question.



Maybe you could actually point to the relevant parts of your blog that back up your assertion that there were no death threats, because I read the whole thing (remarkably easy) and didn't see anything to suggest you had any inside knowledge that debunked what the newspapers had confirmed. All I saw were a lot of veiled threats such as "this stupid woman has a death wish" and personal attacks. Your whole blog is an obsessive dedication to attacking this poor woman. 

Post your evidence here instead of linking to a hate blog whether its yours or not. Then we'll talk. But if you just repeat what you said there, which is that sending a woman videos and pictures of muslim women being flogged and tortured is a 'warning' not a threat, you're going to run into some problems. Since a lot of those videos are posted on your blog, I have no doubt you enjoy the thought of scaring Shana and making her fear for her life.



> You made a number of mistakes in your post where you said I should crawl under a rock.



Telling you to crawl beneath a rock was not a mistake, it was good advice.


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## Vicious-chan (Mar 23, 2011)

:| I'm disappoint.

She's attractive, btw.


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## sadated_peon (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> It is a pity you have not agreed to my request to provide a link to where she has been threatened and what the threat said. In the Holy Quran it clearly says you should not behave as she is re bikini, competition etc. The bit about her doing something not permitted in Islam is a newspaper quoting what she said.



The link is in the first post. Go read it for yourself. You should have read that before posting. 

I ask you to quote and link to where she said 
'I know what I am doing is not permitted in Islam'
Please post a link to the newspaper article, as they are all online now.


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## T4R0K (Mar 23, 2011)

The threat denial here reminds of Gaddhafi's "cease-fire"...

And for the person who said she might as well declare herself non-muslim, OK, but then she'd be an apostate, which is also ground for death threats, lol !

And forcing people to be pious so they'd avoid religious people's judgement/threats is oppression. Anyone could do ramadan and go to the mosque just to not be bothered, and actually not believe at all !

I've seen a lot of people looking pious, because of fear of other people, not fear of God.


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## Jello Biafra (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> It is a pity you have not agreed to my request to provide a link to where she has been threatened and what the threat said. In the Holy Quran it clearly says you should not behave as she is re bikini, competition etc. The bit about her doing something not permitted in Islam is a newspaper quoting what she said.



This is a forum build around a comic about a retarded ninja in an orange jump suit...

We're not interested in apologetics for the conduct of Islamic fundamentalists.


----------



## Mael (Mar 23, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> It is a pity you have not agreed to my request to provide a link to where she has been threatened and what the threat said. In the Holy Quran it clearly says you should not behave as she is re bikini, competition etc. The bit about her doing something not permitted in Islam is a newspaper quoting what she said.



Quote it plox.



Jello Biafra said:


> This is a forum build around a comic about a retarded ninja in an orange jump suit...
> 
> We're not interested in apologetics for the conduct of Islamic fundamentalists.



Remember, Jelly.  They have Allah on their side, and he wills all sorts of shit.  We're all heathen infidels if we don't and thus our logic is faulty.


----------



## MunchKing (Mar 23, 2011)

That's regrettable. Don't listen to the fundies.



Jello Biafra said:


> This is a forum build around a comic about a retarded ninja in an orange jump suit...
> 
> We're not interested in apologetics for the conduct of Islamic fundamentalists.



The list of things we're not interested in is quite large to be honest.

I suddenly find myself intrigued by your sig, Jello.  What protest is that from?


----------



## Ennoea (Mar 23, 2011)

I love how Muslims bring in the Quran when it suits them. Quran says alot of shit that no one bothers to follow but all the parts outlining opression tend to be quite popular.


----------



## Jello Biafra (Mar 23, 2011)

MunchKing said:


> That's regrettable. Don't listen to the fundies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a prop 8 protest in California


----------



## Terra Branford (Mar 23, 2011)

> :| I'm disappoint.
> 
> She's attractive, btw.


She is. I love her hair :33

@Ayeesha:
Are you serious? Are you really attacking her for "not" being Muslim? She is too Muslim, that's the whole damn reason she's being threatened because others think she isn't "Muslim" enough. Online threats are still threats! >.>

She has been threatened. Other Muslim pageants have been threatened too.



> It is a pity you have not agreed to my request to provide a link to where she has been threatened and what the threat said. *In the Holy Quran it clearly says you should not behave as she is re bikini, competition etc.* The bit about her doing something not permitted in Islam is a newspaper quoting what she said.






> You are attacking her and trying to destroy her as a system of control NOT just to beat her down but to make sure that no other Muslim girl sees her.


*nods head in agreement*

I have a feeling Ayeesha is one of those posters on Shanna's blog saying she isn't a good role model for Muslims females, you know teaching Muslim girls/women freedom of choice, a good life, dresses as she pleases etc etc....

How dare Shanna!


----------



## Velocity (Mar 23, 2011)

Kittan said:


> You basically receive death threats for everything.



Especially breathing.


----------



## maj1n (Mar 24, 2011)

psycheofthewoods said:


> The point is _she's answerable to God for her own deeds_. It's none of your business. She doesn't have to answer to you or me or any other person. Why are you creating a fuss over this?


Islam prescribes many earthly rules and punishments for what God thinks is wrong or right.

It is not a defensible argument, even in Islam, to say what God thinks is wrong or right is purely between a person and God, since a religion very often (always) enforces how people should act on this world according to what their God thinks is just.


----------



## Sanity Check (Mar 24, 2011)

Sexual repression = religious zealotism.
Religious zealotism = irrational, dogma.
Irrational, dogma = insane !@#% like this...  :ho


----------



## Zhariel (Mar 24, 2011)

Just send them death threats for sending death threats. Fixed.


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## Perseverance (Mar 24, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> Good. Lets try and keep this Muslim disease away from as many things as possible.



There's only one desease here  But, lucky there's freedom right.


----------



## Terra Branford (Mar 24, 2011)

Caelus said:


> Just send them death threats for sending death threats. Fixed.



I was thinking more along the lines of sending nudez to the people threatening her...but this should work to xD


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## Sanity Check (Mar 26, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of sending nudez to the people threatening her...but this should work to xD



o, rlly?

If I send death threats, you'll send me nudez?  :ho

Is that how this game works?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 26, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of sending nudez to the people threatening her...but this should work to xD


*Sends Terra a Death Threat*


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## Xyloxi (Mar 26, 2011)

Tits or I'll cut you Terra. :33


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## Terra Branford (Mar 26, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> o, rlly?
> 
> If I send death threats, you'll send me nudez?  :ho
> 
> Is that how this game works?





Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *Sends Terra a Death Threat*





Xyloxi said:


> Tits or I'll cut you Terra. :33



*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




Sorry, not happening guys


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## Ayeesha (Mar 27, 2011)

Shanna is wanting to be a role model for Muslim women. She is thus actively encouraging them to behave unIslamically. She is not 'too Muslim' but is acting against Islam. Even one of the journalists says that he is running no more articles on her as there are reasons to suggest she has not been open about the truth.

That's WHY no-one here has been able to quote any death threat, link to any death threat or prove any death threat exists - because it doesn't and never has. Read the 'Vanity' post : 

Especially read this post: 

No threat against her. She has been deceitful to journalists (which, up to a point, is permitted in Islam) but by wearing a bikin in public and encouraging other Muslims to do the same she is behaving against the commands in the Holy Quran.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your actions empower the terrorists 



Ayeesha said:


> Shanna is wanting to be a role model for Muslim women. She is thus actively encouraging them to behave unIslamically. She is not 'too Muslim' but is acting against Islam. Even one of the journalists says that he is running no more articles on her as there are reasons to suggest she has not been open about the truth.
> 
> That's WHY no-one here has been able to quote any death threat, link to any death threat or prove any death threat exists - because it doesn't and never has. Read the 'Vanity' post :
> 
> ...



Your source seems pretty biased and considering the track record of muslims dealing with independent women, I don't find her claim questionable at all.

You say yourself that she acts against the koran. If people get death threats for merely drawing muhammed, why wouldn't they get death threats for wearing bikinis?


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## Juno (Mar 27, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> Shanna is wanting to be a role model for Muslim women. She is thus actively encouraging them to behave unIslamically. She is not 'too Muslim' but is acting against Islam. Even one of the journalists says that he is running no more articles on her as there are reasons to suggest she has not been open about the truth.
> 
> That's WHY no-one here has been able to quote any death threat, link to any death threat or prove any death threat exists - because it doesn't and never has. Read the 'Vanity' post :
> 
> ...



Still pimping your hateful little blog, huh?

Who do you think you're kidding? You say she isn't being sent threats, and yet  - and they're the most threatening, disturbing things I've seen and read. You say she has a death wish repeatedly and that giving her pictures and images and descriptions of muslim women being disfigured, tortured, and killed is just a 'warning', trying to scare her into changing her ways. It's the very definition of a death threat whether you want to admit it or not. And it's illegal whether you like it or not. The guy who sent near identical 'warnings' to the south park creators managed to delude himself like you that this didn't constitute a death threat. Now he's serving 25 years in prison. So think hard about that. Even if you ignore the criminality of this behaviour, how can you really think this is acceptable conduct for a civilised human being towards another?


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## Mael (Mar 27, 2011)

Juno, why are you even bothering with this overt Muslim?


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## stomponfrogs (Mar 27, 2011)

Juno said:


> Still pimping your hateful little blog, huh?
> 
> Who do you think you're kidding? You say she isn't being sent threats, and yet  - and they're the most threatening, disturbing things I've seen and read. You say she has a death wish repeatedly and that giving her pictures and images and descriptions of muslim women being disfigured, tortured, and killed is just a 'warning', trying to scare her into changing her ways. It's the very definition of a death threat whether you want to admit it or not. And it's illegal whether you like it or not. The guy who sent near identical 'warnings' to the south park creators managed to delude himself like you that this didn't constitute a death threat. Now he's serving 25 years in prison. So think hard about that. Even if you ignore the criminality of this behaviour, how can you really think this is acceptable conduct for a civilised human being towards another?



+1

I don't feel as though this is an issue of whether or not she is a good role model for Muslim women. It's that she is receiving death threats, which is not legal in the country of her residence no matter how you slice it. While I am personally indignant with the situation of someone having their life threatened in the name of any religion, as I personally believe that religion should be a source of peace and not violence, I also feel that is a minor point in the argument that death-threats are lawfully wrong.

I just hope that the senders of these threats are either all-talk or apprehended before they can harm a hair on the head of this apparently beautiful woman.


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## T4R0K (Mar 27, 2011)

Also, a question I didn't receive an answer to : why do the fundies feel it's their "mission" to hurt her or threaten to do so ?

That's rather brutal for a bikini.

And : I know Mister Universe is about Body-Building, is it the same with Miss Universe ?


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## Juno (Mar 27, 2011)

Mael said:


> Juno, why are you even bothering with this overt Muslim?



Because Sundays are my bothering with overt muslim day?


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## Kafuka de Vil (Mar 27, 2011)

Miss Fortune said:


> Religion... fuck everyone's life...



I cannot wait for the day when we have a totally secular society in which everything is fucking perfect.

Now excuse me while I pray to my God.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Mar 27, 2011)

T4R0K said:


> Also, a question I didn't receive an answer to : why do the fundies feel it's their "mission" to hurt her or threaten to do so ?
> 
> That's rather brutal for a bikini.
> 
> And : I know Mister Universe is about Body-Building, is it the same with Miss Universe ?



It's a beauty contest.


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## DisgustingIdiot (Mar 27, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> No threat against her. She has been deceitful to journalists (which, up to a point, is permitted in Islam) but by wearing a bikin in public and encouraging other Muslims to do the same she is behaving against the commands in the Holy Quran.



The Koran is worth less to society than Twilight and Muhammad was a p*d*p****. You mad?


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## Kafuka de Vil (Mar 27, 2011)

Rob said:


> The Koran is worth less to society than Twilight and Muhammad was a p*d*p****. You mad?



Why's that Rob?


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## Mael (Mar 27, 2011)

Juno said:


> Because Sundays are my bothering with overt muslim day?



See...I felt it more a waste of your intellect.


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## Kafuka de Vil (Mar 27, 2011)

Mael said:


> See...I felt it more a waste of your intellect.



lol suck up.


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## Ayeesha (Mar 27, 2011)

stomponfrogs said:


> +1
> 
> I don't feel as though this is an issue of whether or not she is a good role model for Muslim women. It's that she is receiving death threats, which is not legal in the country of her residence no matter how you slice it. While I am personally indignant with the situation of someone having their life threatened in the name of any religion, as I personally believe that religion should be a source of peace and not violence, I also feel that is a minor point in the argument that death-threats are lawfully wrong.
> 
> I just hope that the senders of these threats are either all-talk or apprehended before they can harm a hair on the head of this apparently beautiful woman.



I hoped if I stayed away for a short time that you'd improve your debating skills.

Sadly, I was wrong.

You said:

'You said she received no threats and then you detail them'

You're more experienced at posting in this forum than I am. Perhaps you think everyone is stupid and won't follow links. Well, I do. You linked to  which is entitled 'So-called threats...' What that means is that the post shows there were NO threats. You also keep insisting it is my blog so it makes no difference that I deny that. If you feel you have little to say, I guess attacking me is your only refuge.

I do note, though, that AGAIN you put a plural onto 'threat' and yet you cannot produce one single threat from anywhere. To give any merit to your argument you should at least list the threats (plural) that you naively claim have been made. But then, I have asked you to do that many times and you won't - because you cannot.


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## Jaga (Mar 27, 2011)

physical abuse is always wrong and the people that are doing it are wack in the head. the people who are not being racist and verbally abusing her for being in the contest for religion are morons as well and are hurting their religion more then anybody else.

i think she should pull out too but because shes not that pretty not because of her race or anything. plus it will save her the public torment.


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## Ayeesha (Mar 27, 2011)

You make a key point: "You say yourself that she acts against the koran. If people get death threats for merely drawing muhammed, why wouldn't they get death threats for wearing bikinis?"

I would not be surprised if she did/does get death threats. BUT the death threat that she released to the press - the ONE death threat if someone can tell Juno about plurals - as the journalist acknowledges, was not really a death threat at all.

Let's look at it from Christianity's point of view.

If you tell me you are an atheist and I say you are going to Hell - is that a death threat?
Atheist do not believe that a God exists and do not believe in heaven or hell. The bible says in 2 Timothy 2:12 that if we deny God He will deny us.

If you say you reject Jesus and I say you are going to Hell - is that a death threat? Reject Jesus as Savior and Lord. Jesus said "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life." John 14:6. John 3:16 says that whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life. According to The Bible, those who reject Jesus as Lord and Savior will go to hell.

If you say you believe your good works will keep you from Hell and I say they won't - is that a death threat?  Good works don't get us into heaven or keep us from going to hell. It is by faith in Jesus only. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that it is by Grace that we are saved through faith and not of our works.

If you believe that God is a good God and you are a good person therefore He will not send you to Hell, and I say you will go...is that a death threat? The Bible says in Romans 3:10 that there are none who are righteous, not even one.
ounds.

If you deny the resurrection and I say you're going to Hell - is that a death threat?
Romans 10:9 says that we must believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

In Bukhari's case - according to the blog- her friend was sent a Youtube video showing what happens to women in Pakistan if they go against Islam. In other words the friend was shown what punishment was being meted out in Pakistan. There was an implied pointer that maybe that COULD happen in the UK. Is that a death threat? Of course not.

What Bukhari THEN did was use that as publicity to help her campaign  -a campaign that includes getting people like me to leave Islam. The punishment for that? Well, according to Islam....ahhhh the stupid ones among you might think I was making a death threat....

If she has had death threats (plural) what did they say? How did they arrive? What are the police doing? You can rest assured that IF Bukhari did have death threats (plural for Juno) then she'd have released them to the Press!


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## Ayeesha (Mar 27, 2011)

If physical abuse is always wrong are you against the NATO intervention in Libya?

Why do you say the 'people who are NOt being racist' are morons? In my experience, racists are morons.


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## kakashi4ever (Mar 27, 2011)

Im really impress with your knowledge and post as well because it's all truely and proofed by evidence..


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## Terra Branford (Mar 27, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Your actions empower the terrorists



I have my dignity to keep.


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## Mael (Mar 27, 2011)

MbS said:


> lol suck up.



Pot calls kettle black.


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## Terra Branford (Mar 27, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> If she has had death threats (plural) what did they say? *How did they arrive?* What are the police doing? You can rest assured that IF Bukhari did have death threats (plural for Juno) then she'd have released them to the Press!


So you think she's lying because her threats weren't made public, right? That's just stupid.

How did they arrive? The article itself says how.



> The attacks on the Manchester-based English literature graduate began after a *local newspaper ran an article 10 days ago revealing her ambition to become the first Muslim to represent Great Britain at the beauty contest.* Since then, she has received around 300 messages a *day on her Facebook page*, a handful of which are abusive. Most of the negative comments have come from a minority of Muslim men. "I get people saying, 'you're not a Muslim' and 'you're using religion to get attention'. I said they were the ones bringing religion into it. I'm not representing Islam; I just want to represent my country, and of that I am very proud. They are trying to control me, using religion as a tool to attack."



Newspaper and then her facebook. And yes,  you can remove facebook comments by clicking the "X".



> What Bukhari THEN did was use that as publicity to help her campaign -a campaign that includes getting people like me to leave Islam. The punishment for that? Well, according to Islam....ahhhh the stupid ones among you might think I was making a death threat....


So you're pissed about something she's not doing? You are accusing her of trying to get people to leave Islam when she's not. She's a Muslim. Yet because she isn't YOUR Muslim, you will make accusations against her, attack her for "not being Muslim enough" and even go as far as to try and defend threats against her or even go as far as saying this threats "aren't threats" or don't "exist"?

This hasn't been the first time a Muslim woman was threatened because she was in one of these beauty shows.


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## stomponfrogs (Mar 27, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> I hoped if I stayed away for a short time that you'd improve your debating skills.
> 
> Sadly, I was wrong.
> 
> ...



I think you may have quoted the wrong person here.. I don't believe I've ever responded to you  before, and at no point did I make any attacks against you or post any links in my post.


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## Kafuka de Vil (Mar 28, 2011)

MbS said:


> Rob said:
> 
> 
> > The Koran is worth less to society than Twilight and Muhammad was a p*d*p****. You mad?
> ...



Still waiting for a response Rob.

Or do you tink you can take part in the circle jerk and not be challenged?


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2011)

MbS said:


> Still waiting for a response Rob.
> 
> Or do you tink you can take part in the circle jerk and not be challenged?



Let's see: Twilight makes teenage girls with below average intelligence happy. The Koran encourages misogyny, allows pedophilia, endorses domestic violence and has been used to justify the deaths of thousands.

I'd go with Twilight.


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## KuzuRyuSen (Mar 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Let's see: Twilight makes teenage girls with below average intelligence happy. The Koran encourages misogyny, allows pedophilia, endorses domestic violence and has been used to justify the deaths of thousands.
> 
> I'd go with Twilight.



You're using strong words my friend. There is no teaching in Islam that promotes those kind of things. Those were just used as an excuse by the terrorists who hide behind the banner of religion. It's the same of the Crusades, the people were mislead, _Deus Vault_ they say. However, in truth, the nobles just wanted more lands in the East.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2011)

mybowandarrow70 said:


> You're using strong words my friend. There is no teaching in Islam that promotes those kind of things. Those were just used as an excuse by the terrorists who hide behind the banner of religion. It's the same of the Crusades, the people were mislead, _Deus Vault_ they say. However, in truth, the nobles just wanted more lands in the East.



I believe I said that it's been used to justify those terrorism and that remains true whether you like it or not. Also very kind of you to ignore the rest. Does the Koran not allow for pedophilia and beating your wife? Does it not encourage homophobia and display women as inferior?


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## hunda7 (Mar 28, 2011)

not necessary in my opinion


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## maj1n (Mar 28, 2011)

mybowandarrow70 said:


> You're using strong words my friend. There is no teaching in Islam that promotes those kind of things. Those were just used as an excuse by the terrorists who hide behind the banner of religion. It's the same of the Crusades, the people were mislead, _Deus Vault_ they say. However, in truth, the nobles just wanted more lands in the East.


A general attitude of mysoginy, which Islam has, influences much of this.

If i teach my children to hate black people, that is a direct factor if my children grow up to violently attack black people.

Same deal with Islam.

To act as if people whom explicitly say they do this because of Islam, are 'misled' is to intentionally not listen to the criminal and choose your own arbitrary explanation, which is shutting oneself from reality.


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## KuzuRyuSen (Mar 28, 2011)

Or maybe all of those acts were due to a violent culture. I mean, no offense to Arabs out there, but most violent Muslims I have known so far are Arabs. Arabs from my country aren't that violent, well except for some separatists, but generally Muslims in my country are quite peaceful people.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2011)

mybowandarrow70 said:


> Or maybe all of those acts were due to a violent culture. I mean, no offense to Arabs out there, but most violent Muslims I have known so far are Arabs. Arabs from my country aren't that violent, well except for some separatists, but generally Muslims in my country are quite peaceful people.



Converts tend to be very aggressive about their beliefs. Besides, even if they don't beat their women, they still follow a doctrine which condones exactly that. I'm pretty sure the majority of racists don't actually commit acts of violence against people of other races, but that doesn't make their ideology any less disgusting.


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## KuzuRyuSen (Mar 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Converts tend to be very aggressive about their beliefs. Besides, even if they don't beat their women, they still follow a doctrine which condones exactly that. I'm pretty sure the majority of racists don't actually commit acts of violence against people of other races, but that doesn't make their ideology any less disgusting.



Why did you say converts tend to be very aggressive?


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## maj1n (Mar 28, 2011)

mybowandarrow70 said:


> Or maybe all of those acts were due to a violent culture. I mean, no offense to Arabs out there, but most violent Muslims I have known so far are Arabs. Arabs from my country aren't that violent, well except for some separatists, but generally Muslims in my country are quite peaceful people.


Or maybe your not listening to Muslims whom commit these acts?

If they say they do it because of their religion, whom are you to suddenly tell them their misguided or their intentions come from somewhere else?

Simply put, you wish to absolve Islam of responsibility, going so far as to ignore what they say are the source of their intentions.


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## Benzaiten (Mar 28, 2011)

Poor lady.

I have nothing against religion in general but the people who believe it can be such narrow-minded extremists. I don't know what they teach in Islam or how believers interpret it but if it causes people to do such things then there is something seriously wrong with their interpretation.

Shanna said it herself "We simply live in a multicultural society where there are significant numbers of Muslims. Islam is about peace; abusing me is itself wrong in Islam." It's the same for Christianity with condemning homosexuality and the like; it's not understanding what your religion is about. People are so obsessed with those little details (sacraments, practices, songs, psalms, etc.) that they forget the core teaching of that religion which is to do good and be good. It sucks.


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

I prefer evidence to emotional claptrap


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

Have you any idea what paedophilia actually means?


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> I believe I said that it's been used to justify those terrorism and that remains true whether you like it or not. Also very kind of you to ignore the rest. Does the Koran not allow for pedophilia and beating your wife? Does it not encourage homophobia and display women as inferior?



Have you any idea what paedophilia actually means?

Nowhere are women displayed as inferior. It discourages 'beating' your wife - I assume you do not even know what 'beating' means.

It encourages people to be against 'wrong behaviour' which is defined, yes. And that includes homosexuality. So your point is...?


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

maj1n said:


> Or maybe your not listening to Muslims whom commit these acts?
> 
> If they say they do it because of their religion, whom are you to suddenly tell them their misguided or their intentions come from somewhere else?
> 
> Simply put, you wish to absolve Islam of responsibility, going so far as to ignore what they say are the source of their intentions.



In the Holy Quran Arabs are described as the most evil.


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

Shanna has said many things, most of them misleading. People are not 'abusing her' as such. They are 'abusing the person who seeks to lead people away from Islam' - and that is absolutely fine.

You say: "I don't know what they teach in Islam or how believers interpret it but if it *causes people to do such things* then there is something seriously wrong with their interpretation."

So you subscribe to predestination?


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

I apologise for associating you with Juno - you are much better than that.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2011)

Ayeesha said:


> Have you any idea what paedophilia actually means?



Being sexually attracted to prepubescents. The Koran allows you to marry and have sex with prepubescent girls.



> Nowhere are women displayed as inferior. It discourages 'beating' your wife - I assume you do not even know what 'beating' means.



Oh, will you tell me now that slapping a woman isn't really beating her or some other pathetic excuse to justify domestic violence? Verse 4:34 in the Koran encourages wife beating and clearly says that the wife is subservient to the husband.



> It encourages people to be against 'wrong behaviour' which is defined, yes. And that includes homosexuality. So your point is...?



The western world has accepted homosexuality, maybe it's time to catch up with the 21st century? Homosexuals are even being murdered in islamic countries.


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## Flame Emperor (Mar 28, 2011)

^Then I wonder why my parents never told me to beat my wife when I get older. :amazed


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## Deleted member 84471 (Mar 28, 2011)

It's probably not even right to call Muhammad a paedophile. Paedophilia is only classified as a psychiatric disorder because it is harmful to one of the parties involved, but it's otherwise considered to be like any other sexual orientation, as far as I know. They have sexual urges to contend with, which are primarily or exclusively towards pre-pubescents. 

Muhammad probably didn't even have this disorder, yet he married and raped a child. A fact that is enshrined in Islamic scriptures. He was more rotten and vicious than a paedophile.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2011)

Flame Emperor said:


> ^Then I wonder why my parents never told me to beat my wife when I get older. :amazed



For the same reason christian parents tell their children slavery is wrong, even though Jesus condones it: Religions adapt to the culture around them. Beating your wife is illegal in western countries and frowned upon in our society.

Most people only follow their religion as long as it's convenient. That's why Mormons don't like to talk about the fact that their religion is racist and Jews are quick to forget about Moses's law of stoning disobedient children to death.


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## Kafuka de Vil (Mar 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Let's see: Twilight makes teenage girls with below average intelligence happy. The Koran encourages misogyny, allows pedophilia, endorses domestic violence and has been used to justify the deaths of thousands.
> 
> I'd go with Twilight.



You're full of bullshit.

Back on to the ignore list for you.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2011)

MbS said:


> You're full of bullshit.
> 
> Back on to the ignore list for you.



If you scatter thorns, don't go barefoot.


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## WT (Mar 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Being sexually attracted to prepubescents. The Koran allows you to marry and have sex with prepubescent girls.



This is nothing more than a bigoted and hateful claim, with a sole purpose to demonize Muslims. Since the Internet is an unregulated media, it plays the role of a safe haven for hate mongers like yourself. 

Nothing could be farther from the truth. 

Your talking about the following verse right?



> 65:4- Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, *and for those who have no courses (it is the same)*: for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.



1) These verses are pertaining to divorce, not marriage or sex. 

2) Now your right, the bolded part does refer to prepubescent girls, however, please do not add your own vile interpretation, believing that the Quran here allows Muslims to have a sexual relationship with girls of these ages. Not only in Old Semitic communities but also seen in parts of India, Pakistan and China, it is not unusual for an older man to be "betrothed" (marriage contract between two parties, however, consummation can only be done after mental and physical maturity of both parties) to younger women. When the time of maturity comes, the girl is given the chance to accept the marriage contract or leave it. If she agrees, both will live as Husband and wife.     

Now it is possible to terminate the marriage contract while the girl is still pre pubescent. This is the true meaning of the verse. 

Please also note that non of the Abrahamic regions allow for such a disgusting practice. Sexual intercourse can only be done after both parties have reached puberty.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> This is nothing more than a bigoted and hateful claim, with a sole purpose to demonize Muslims. Since the Internet is an unregulated media, it plays the role of a safe haven for hate mongers like yourself.
> 
> Nothing could be farther from the truth.
> 
> Your talking about the following verse right?



I'm not demonizing muslims, just the Koran. I never said muslims in general are pedophiles.



> 1) These verses are pertaining to divorce, not marriage or sex.



More precisely it's about *remarriage* after divorce. Someone who can get remarried obviously must have been married before.



> 2) Now your right, the bolded part does refer to prepubescent girls, however, please do not add your own vile interpretation, believing that the Quran here allows Muslims to have a sexual relationship with girls of these ages. Not only in Old Semitic communities but also seen in parts of India, Pakistan and China, it is not unusual for an older man to be "betrothed" (marriage contract between two parties, however, consummation can only be done after mental and physical maturity of both parties) to younger women. When the time of maturity comes, the girl is given the chance to accept the marriage contract or leave it. If she agrees, both will live as Husband and wife.
> 
> Now it is possible to terminate the marriage contract while the girl is still pre pubescent. This is the true meaning of the verse.



 Nice fairy tale, I'd like to see how many little girls get a say about some old guy fucking them after he buys her from her parents. "You don't want to get married? Well sure, run along then, little girl".

It's a fact that the Koran says prepubescent girls can get remarried (and therefore married). 



> Please also note that non of the Abrahamic regions allow for such a disgusting practice. Sexual intercourse can only be done after both parties have reached puberty.



Your own prophet had sex with a 9-year-old, stop pretending. Not to mention that he got engaged to her when she was 6. Are you telling me an old guy gets married to a little girl without having any fantasies of having sex with her?

And if it's so disgusting and condemned, why is it generally accepted by muslims in any non-western country?


----------



## WT (Mar 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> More precisely it's about *remarriage* after divorce. Someone who can get remarried obviously must have been married before.



No, that's wrong. Its about divorce. Surah 65 itself is called "The Divorce". The Islamic Scholars unanimously agree that the incident is about divorce.

Of course, you can go and believe what the bigoted evangelical missionaries say, but it'll make you look more stupid than you already are looking. I guess next time I want to learn about evolution, I'm recommended to see the literature as provided by Harun Yahya? 



> Nice fairy tale, I'd like to see how many little girls get a say about some old guy fucking them after he buys her from her parents. "You don't want to get married? Well sure, run along then, little girl".



Not a fairy tale, its a reality. Its sad to see that practices of forced marriage are being associated to Islam when it was Islam which came to abolish such things. Now, Muslims do practice this however, it is not in accordance to Islamic law. 



> It's a fact that the Koran says prepubescent girls can get remarried (and therefore married).



You just restated your original arguemnt after I had shed light on the true nature of the meaning of the verse. 



> Your own prophet had sex with a 9-year-old, stop pretending.



She had reached maturity then. If you want to argue that Lady Aisha was still a child, I expect you to provide the proof, I don't want general statistics which say that a sample population of 50 odd females 1400 years ago in a hot dry desert (Sun is full of Vitamin D's which accelerate puberty) being fed dates (full of nutrients and energy) reach puberty on average at blah blah blah age, I want a more explicit proof, about lady Aisha *herself*. 



> Not to mention that he got engaged to her when she was 6. Are you telling me an old guy gets married to a little girl without having any fantasies of having sex with her?



It was in fact someone else who advised Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to get married to Lady Aisha. Secondly, he was married to a woman 15 years his senior for 25 years and married to other women who were also older than he was. In fact Lady Aisha was his *only* bride of that age.


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

Excellent post White Tiger


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

"Most people only follow their religion as long as it's convenient. "

Please provide evidence of your research to support that statement. I would in particular like to see your research among Muslims.


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## Ennoea (Mar 28, 2011)

> Have you any idea what paedophilia actually means?



Do you know what it means?


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

You say that 4:34 encourages wife-beating.

This is yet another reason why you should actually STUDY Islam rather than simply repeat what you are told.

Go find someone who can speak and read Arabic. The part of the Verse which is usually translated "...and beat them" reads like this in Arabic ?...wadhribuuhunn (wa idhribuuhuun)." The root of "idhribuuhuun" is "daraba", "beat". There are many words in Arabic derived from this root. Other examples include "dharabtum", which is used in Verse 4:94, and is usually translated in English, "go forth/go out/go abroad". Whilst it is possible to translate "idhribuuhuun" as "beat/strike", just as in English it is equally possible to translate it as "beat it" i.e. leave, "separate", "part". The Verse that follows this Verse goes on to talk about appointing arbitrators from each side and strive for reconciliation. The Prophet never beat anyone much less any of his wives. When there was any marital discord, he went away. In this context, is it not more likely that the correct meaning of the word "idhribuuhuun" is "leave/separate/part"?

Even in English we have 'beat it' as in 'go'! So THINK about what you have written. If it really WAS authorising the 'beating' of someone's wife then the Prophet would have done this! *Think: the word "idhribuuhuun" is a command, an imperative form of the verb, yet a command the Prophet did not carry out when it meant ?beat? but he did carry it out when it meant ?go away.?* 

Therefore the Sunnah of the Prophet is ?not to beat.? The word daraba or its imperative form in verb form I, "idhribuuhuun", has 25 meanings. Why take a meaning that goes against the legal and moral principles of the Qur'an that harms someone when the Prophet did not do it?

Further, the word "idhribuuhuun" in it's meaning as "beat" does not mean beat in a violent way to incur physical damage. The Arabic word that means beat to incur physical damage is ?hatumhoo?. The Qur'an did not use the word ?hatumhoo? it used "idhribuuhuun", which is a word meaning more an action to show displeasure without causing physical harm. It is striking such that even a baby won?t be harmed. It is difficult to translate because in English when we use the word strike it implies harm but in Arabic this word does not imply physical damage or harm. Most translators in an attempt to get close to the meaning in Arabic translate "idhribuuhuun" as strike lightly. Some have even translated this word as a tongue lashing. But it does not mean the physical brutalization and beat down of women as the enemies of Al-Islam would like it to mean. If it did, then the leader for all Muslims, the Prophet (saaw), would have demonstrated it. The Prophet (saaw) never beat any of his wives. The prophet (saaw) walked away rather than get into confrontations with them.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2011)

Ayeesha: I'll take the word of just about any muslim scholar that ever lived over yours, thank you.



White Tiger said:


> No, that's wrong. Its about divorce. Surah 65 itself is called "The Divorce". The Islamic Scholars unanimously agree that the incident is about divorce.
> 
> Of course, you can go and believe what the bigoted evangelical missionaries say, but it'll make you look more stupid than you already are looking. I guess next time I want to learn about evolution, I'm recommended to see the literature as provided by Harun Yahya?



So the verse doesn't say anything about Iddah, the waiting period for a woman to remarry? You're sure that every single translation of the Koran is wrong about this verse?



> Not a fairy tale, its a reality. Its sad to see that practices of forced marriage are being associated to Islam when it was Islam which came to abolish such things. Now, Muslims do practice this however, it is not in accordance to Islamic law.



Well Islam sure is a shitty religion if it came to abolish a practice and which is still rampant in islamic countries after centuries of muslim control. Especially when the same practice has long been abolished in secular societies. Sorry, but I can't say it any better.



> You just restated your original arguemnt after I had shed light on the true nature of the meaning of the verse.



Funny how many scholars disagree with you.



> She had reached maturity then. If you want to argue that Lady Aisha was still a child, I expect you to provide the proof, I don't want general statistics which say that a sample population of 50 odd females 1400 years ago in a hot dry desert (Sun is full of Vitamin D's which accelerate puberty) being fed dates (full of nutrients and energy) reach puberty on average at blah blah blah age, I want a more explicit proof, about lady Aisha *herself*.



You make the claim that derivates from the norm, you supply the evidence.



> It was in fact someone else who advised Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to get married to Lady Aisha. Secondly, he was married to a woman 15 years his senior for 25 years and married to other women who were also older than he was. In fact Lady Aisha was his *only* bride of that age.



Oh, I'm sorry, that makes it alright of course. You can fuck children any day as long as you also have sex with adults. Hooray for the 21st century.


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## Black Wraith (Mar 28, 2011)

Sauf, it does not refer to prepubescent girls.

It refers to women who don't get menstruation, whether due to an illness or old age.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2011)

Black Wraith said:


> Sauf, it does not refer to prepubescent girls.
> 
> It refers to women who don't get menstruation, whether due to an illness or old age.



Women in menopause are mentioned separately in the verse, so it can't mean those. You say that "women without curse" mean women who can't get a period? I could only find the medical condition of Amenorrhoea as lack of mentruation but it doesn't seem to be chronic and usually drug-induced so I seriously doubt your claim that the Koran would cover such a nearly impossible event.

Well, I'll leave it to you and white tiger to argue about that. He said that it refers to prepubescents.


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## Ayeesha (Mar 28, 2011)

_"Ayeesha: I'll take the word of just about any muslim scholar that ever lived over yours, thank you."_

Sadly that does not even begin to make sense. If you have two conclusions exactly the same how can you take one over the other.

I am happy to debate with you, to correct you where necessary but do not make yourself look such a fool. It, unfortunately, will detract from your posts.


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## WT (Mar 29, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> So the verse doesn't say anything about Iddah, the waiting period for a woman to remarry? You're sure that every single translation of the Koran is wrong about this verse?



Go read the verse I mentioned above again. The verse you are actually referring to is the following:



> 33:49- O ye who believe! When ye marry believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of 'Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.



Your arguments here follow the same fragile skeleton as those associated to the previous verse.

First of all, Iddat itself is a post marital waiting period, it must expire before the woman is allowed to re marry.

Reasons behind Iddat

1) Identify whether the woman is pregnant or not.

2) Avoids confusion of lineage. If a woman is pressing to Marry, it solely exists to avoid the wrong child being born to the wrong father.

3) Marriage is a scared bond. Time of reflection is needed before one is allowed to re marry.

4) Allows both man and woman to think about their divorce. In some (not all) fiqh, it is allowed to re marry in this period of time.

Now, there is no Iddat if a man does not touch a woman, however, with the case of girls who are pre pubescent, there is. This does not immediately translate to "the guy must have raped the girl", take note that after being betrothed, the girl does not live with here future husband let alone have sex with him, the Prophet's life is a clear example of this. If there is a termination of marriage contract while the girl is still pre pubescent, it has been done so only under the instruction of the parents of both parties, or the husband and parents of the girl. An Iddat is required to give time for the parents to reconcile and think about their decision.

Note again, with the case of matured girls, if there is no sexual activity, no Iddat is required in the case of divorce. This tells us that the divorce as carried out by the mature girl is recognized.   




> Well Islam sure is a shitty religion if it came to abolish a practice and which is still rampant in islamic countries after centuries of muslim control. Especially when the same practice has long been abolished in secular societies. Sorry, but I can't say it any better.



Islam spread far and wide. Cultures have influenced the way Islam is practiced. Quranic verses themselves are a testimony to the prohibition of forced marriages, as it is clearly mentioned (to the nearest meaning) in the Quran that you cannot marry a woman by force. 



> You make the claim that derivates from the norm, you supply the evidence.



No, your the one who claimed it was rape thus it is your burden to prove it. As the Quran says:



> 2:11 - Bring your evidence if you are truthful





> Oh, I'm sorry, that makes it alright of course. You can fuck children any day as long as you also have sex with adults. Hooray for the 21st century.



This was an attempt to show you our Prophet wasn't sexually attracted to children, since he has had adult wives before. Besides, lady Aisha was mature when the marriage was consummated.


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## maj1n (Mar 29, 2011)

Alot of misinformation and apologetics for Islam in this thread.



			
				ayeesha said:
			
		

> Even in English we have 'beat it' as in 'go'! So THINK about what you have written. If it really WAS authorising the 'beating' of someone's wife then the Prophet would have done this! Think: the word "idhribuuhuun" is a command, an imperative form of the verb, yet a command the Prophet did not carry out when it meant “beat” but he did carry it out when it meant “go away.”
> 
> Therefore the Sunnah of the Prophet is “not to beat.” The word daraba or its imperative form in verb form I, "idhribuuhuun", has 25 meanings. Why take a meaning that goes against the legal and moral principles of the Qur'an that harms someone when the Prophet did not do it?


*no*

This is not how language is used for us humans, if i say 'this water is cool to the touch', you do not come out and say 'but cool is also used for other meanings so what you said doesn't really mean cool as in temperature'.

If you want a proper rebuttal, i'll quote myself.



			
				maj1n said:
			
		

> Your websites whole argument rests on the fact that 'darb' can mean things figuratively other than 'hit' or 'strike'.
> 
> Now, lets first look at all the Quran translations.
> 
> ...



It does mean beat, every single Arab scholar, arab translator understood and translated this as physically beat.

Don't talk about this stuff because your just an apologetics getting things from the internet.

Furthermore, Islamic hadiths, stories of Muhammad, mention him prescibing this physical punishment.



			
				white tiger said:
			
		

> Besides, lady Aisha was mature when the marriage was consummated.


Muhammad had sex with a nine year old girl, as enshrined in Islamic texts.

This is a pedophilic act.

Puberty is a process, there is zero evidence Aisha started puberty, even if she did, you still don't have sex with her, nor does starting puberty qualify as physically mature, it wouldn't be a process then.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 29, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> Go read the verse I mentioned above again. The verse you are actually referring to is the following:



No, I was referring to verse 65:4, which talks about the Iddah. Either you or the entire internet is lying here:

 are the translations I could find so far, all talk of a waiting period. 65:1-4 clearly tells me of divorce and the waiting period before remarriage, the iddah.



> Reasons behind Iddat
> 
> 1) Identify whether the woman is pregnant or not.
> 
> ...



And it has nothing to do with purity? Like they were fucked and now they have to become pure three times (three periods) before being able to remarry?



> Now, there is no Iddat if a man does not touch a woman, however, with the case of girls who are pre pubescent, there is. This does not immediately translate to "the guy must have raped the girl", take note that after being betrothed, the girl does not live with here future husband let alone have sex with him, the Prophet's life is a clear example of this. If there is a termination of marriage contract while the girl is still pre pubescent, it has been done so only under the instruction of the parents of both parties, or the husband and parents of the girl. An Iddat is required to give time for the parents to reconcile and think about their decision.
> 
> Note again, with the case of matured girls, if there is no sexual activity, no Iddat is required in the case of divorce. This tells us that the divorce as carried out by the mature girl is recognized.



Alright then, show me which verse of the Koran explicitely prohibits sex with prepubescent wives.



> Islam spread far and wide. Cultures have influenced the way Islam is practiced. Quranic verses themselves are a testimony to the prohibition of forced marriages, as it is clearly mentioned (to the nearest meaning) in the Quran that you cannot marry a woman by force.



Verse, please.



> No, your the one who claimed it was rape thus it is your burden to prove it. As the Quran says:



 We don't define rape based on puberty, we define it based on mental maturity. While precocious puberty is possible (albeit extremely rare at age 9) reaching mental maturity by that time is simply impossible. Especially since extreme cases of precocious puberty are often associated with damage in certain areas of the brain, inhibiting mental development.



> This was an attempt to show you our Prophet wasn't sexually attracted to children, since he has had adult wives before.



What the fuck? Most pedophiles have normal families, too. They certainly have sex with their wives, that doesn't make them any less attracted to children. 



> Besides, lady Aisha was mature when the marriage was consummated.



Alright, you know what? Let's assume that the impossible happens and a girl reaches both physical and mental maturity by the age of 9. Maybe Allah helped a little with the boobs, who knows.

Even so, why did Muhammed, regarded as one of the wisest people ever (if not the wisest) by muslims everywhere, decide to marry her? Could he not know that aisha is a one in a million exception to the rule? Did he not think for a second "hey maybe people could get the wrong ideas and also marry 6-year-olds and fuck 9-year-olds even though they're not mature, yet". Did the thought of how many little girls' lives he would destroy by setting that precedent never cross his divinely touched mind?


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## xenopyre (Mar 29, 2011)

Black Wraith said:


> Sauf, it does not refer to prepubescent girls.
> 
> It refers to women who don't get menstruation, whether due to an illness or old age.


Actually it is both , both menauposed women and prebuscent girls are not subjected to idaah in the islamic law , 
verse 4 surat 65 :"And for such of your women as *despair of menstruation*, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along *with those who have it not*. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him. "


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## maj1n (Mar 29, 2011)

Just to clarify to those who have a somewhat skewed and silly idea of sexual attraction and pedophilia.

Pedophilic attraction is attraction to basically children, biologically we put ranges by when generally puberty starts.

A man who is sexually attracted to a 6 year old, has pedophilic attraction irrespective of whether the child was a freak biological case and started to bleed early.

This is because *our sexual attraction is based on physical form and not on whether a girl starts bleeding from her vagina*.

A pedophilic act is against a child, therefore Muhammad having sex with a 9 year old is a pedophilic act, and according to Islam of her being his favourite sexual partner, he had pedophilic attraction.


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## Escargon (Mar 29, 2011)

*If i had a country i would just let the muslim women in. 

Its not the womens fault this happens. Dont blame her. Dont know why everyone blame all the arabs when womens are inicent.

I wish her a good life.*


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## WT (Mar 29, 2011)

maj1n said:


> Muhammad had sex with a nine year old girl, as enshrined in Islamic texts.
> 
> This is a pedophilic act.
> 
> Puberty is a process, there is zero evidence Aisha started puberty, even if she did, you still don't have sex with her, nor does starting puberty qualify as physically mature, it wouldn't be a process then.



No. The reason why Prophet Muhammad consummated the marriage was because of the fact that Aisha RA was mature. If she was not mature, the marriage would not have been consummated.

Besides Maj1n, Prophet Muhammad being 50 odd years old at the time of this incident, an age where a man's sexual desire are diminishing, if he is what you claim he is, being a messenger, a man who has conquered so much, the whole of Arabia basically kissing the ground he walks upon, wouldn't it be easy to get other prepubescent girls? Wouldn't a p*d*p**** take advantage of this status?


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## WT (Mar 29, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> No, I was referring to verse 65:4,



Fine, I admit, guess I was wrong. Doesn't change a thing because I explained the whole Idaat thing. 



> And it has nothing to do with purity? Like they were fucked and now they have to become pure three times (three periods) before being able to remarry?



What are you talking about?



> Alright then, show me which verse of the Koran explicitely prohibits sex with prepubescent wives.



There are verses in the Quran which state that girls should be married when the age comes. Secondly, the fact that there is no explicit statement about the prohibition of sex with prepubescent girls does not automatically mean that Muslims are allowed to have sex with prepubescent girls. That is a logical fallacy. Most scholars and students of knowledge I am associated to condemn this behavior as unIslamic.




> Verse, please.





> 4-19: O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will





> We don't define rape based on puberty, we define it based on mental maturity. While precocious puberty is possible (albeit extremely rare at age 9) reaching mental maturity by that time is simply impossible. Especially since extreme cases of precocious puberty are often associated with damage in certain areas of the brain, inhibiting mental development.



This is still not evidence. Besides, science is not always correct, in fact, in many situations it does not apply properly. 




> Even so, why did Muhammed, regarded as one of the wisest people ever (if not the wisest) by muslims everywhere, decide to marry her? Could he not know that aisha is a one in a million exception to the rule? Did he not think for a second "hey maybe people could get the wrong ideas and also marry 6-year-olds and fuck 9-year-olds even though they're not mature, yet". Did the thought of how many little girls' lives he would destroy by setting that precedent never cross his divinely touched mind?



At the time of the marriage, there were critics of Islam far worse than you. They said nothing about it. Its only up until the last century when bigoted Christian missionaries brought this into light that this topic has gained quite a lot of fame.


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## Soups (Mar 29, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> No. The reason why Prophet Muhammad consummated the marriage was because of the fact that Aisha RA was mature. If she was not mature, the marriage would not have been consummated.
> 
> Besides Maj1n, Prophet Muhammad being 50 odd years old at the time of this incident, an age where a man's sexual desire are diminishing, if he is what you claim he is, being a messenger, a man who has conquered so much, the whole of Arabia basically kissing the ground he walks upon, wouldn't it be easy to get other prepubescent girls? Wouldn't a p*d*p**** take advantage of this status?



in absolutely no part of this do you successfully dispute anything Majin said. Even an impossibly mature 9 year old will have the appearance of someone whom it would be considered paedophilia to find attractive. Im not up on any of this, so I don't know if they consummated their relationship whilst she was 9. 

The idea that because Muhammad is 50 means that he might not be a paedo is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Also the fact that he apparently didn't get with loads of others is a crap argument, as you well know.


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## maj1n (Mar 29, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> No. The reason why Prophet Muhammad consummated the marriage was because of the fact that Aisha RA was mature. If she was not mature, the marriage would not have been consummated.


Islamic texts only ever speak of Muhammad having sex with her at 9 years old, the skant mention of physical maturity also only implies she did NOT enter puberty.

There is zero evidence of any 'maturity' in any fashion.

Narrated 'Aisha:

that *the Prophe*t married her when she was six years old and he *consummated his marriage when she was nine years old,* and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). 
-http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064

Narrated 'Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (T*he playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty*.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) 
-http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.151



			
				White Tiger said:
			
		

> Besides Maj1n, Prophet Muhammad being 50 odd years old at the time of this incident, an age where a man's sexual desire are diminishing,


According to Islamic texts, Aisha was his favourite frequent sexual partner of all his multiple wives.

So your argument has no support from Islamic texts.



			
				white tiger said:
			
		

> if he is what you claim he is, being a messenger, a man who has conquered so much, the whole of Arabia basically kissing the ground he walks upon, wouldn't it be easy to get other prepubescent girls? Wouldn't a p*d*p**** take advantage of this status?


No actually, Muhammad did face opposition and pressure even from his own muslims, they did not 'just kiss the ground' of his feet, thats reserved for Muslims such as yourselves.

If you read Islamic texts, many Muslims back then complained and criticized Muhammad.


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