# Transgender Beauty Queen Kicked out of Miss Universe



## Fran (Mar 28, 2012)

Source:



> A beauty pageant has booted a contestant out the competition after discovering the buxom blonde was born a boy.
> The Miss Universe Canada organizers threw out Jenna Talackova when they found out she had undergone surgery to become a woman.
> The transgendered contestant had already successfully reached the finals in the Miss Vancouver pageant before she was banned from continuing in the competition.
> Although the pageant organizers described Talackova as a ‘real girl’ they disqualified her arguing that the rules state that each contestant must be a ‘naturally born female.’
> ...



Unfair ruling, I think, from a modern view, but . . .

*Most importantly ze pics.*















I would bring datass home to mama


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## Bishop (Mar 28, 2012)

Oh, let's cry and protest. _Miss_ Universe. But whatever.

I'd like to see the expression of all the guys who hit it and just found out.


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## SoleAccord (Mar 28, 2012)

Perhaps I'm not reading the article correctly, but how did they ever guess? Judging from the pictures, it would be very difficult.


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## mali (Mar 28, 2012)

I can't tell what's worse.

The fact that she's that hot and was born a dood

Or the fact that I would still smash that


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## Toroxus (Mar 28, 2012)

They guessed because the other contestants were worried they were going to lose.


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## Wolfarus (Mar 28, 2012)

Her face still looks somewhat-masculine. But that could just be the influence of me knowing she was origionally male 

w/o knowing that beforehand, i certainly wouldnt have been able to tell the diff (provided her surgeries were complete). If nobody could tell, dont see why the officials would get butthurt about it


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## Toroxus (Mar 28, 2012)

Because they are douchebags.


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## Kakashifan727 (Mar 28, 2012)

It says she told them. Maybe she was pressured or somthin' that's what it seems like.


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## SoleAccord (Mar 28, 2012)

One thing is for sure though, the losers are probably ashamed they lost to one who was born a male. For shame.


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## αce (Mar 28, 2012)

My dick is so confused right now.


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## LouDAgreat (Mar 28, 2012)

Successful sex change was _real_ _real_ successful.


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## Level7N00b (Mar 28, 2012)

I feel no shame in saying I would hit that.


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## kizuna (Mar 28, 2012)

> The transgendered contestant had already successfully reached the finals in the Miss Vancouver pageant before she was banned from continuing in the competition.



I guess they looked into her past and saw that?

She does have a kinda masculine jawline, but yeah... I don't see why they should kick her out.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 28, 2012)

I'd hit that.

Like the gender matters anyway.


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## Spica (Mar 28, 2012)

She looks amazing. If I didn't know she was a guy I wouldn't have noticed the slightly masculine traits but the sex change was really successful. Go her!


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## voozel (Mar 28, 2012)

Ewwwww of course * he * should be kicked out


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## Demon Lord (Mar 28, 2012)

She's very pretty, I'd never be able to tell, it looks like she had a face lift but that's about it. If they ~had suspicions ~ they probably spied on her.

The rule itself is discriminatory, I think they should ditch it altogether.


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## Chibason (Mar 28, 2012)

ThePromise said:


> *Perhaps I'm not reading the article correctly, but how did they ever guess?* Judging from the pictures, it would be very difficult.



See Below--



> *"She feels like a real girl* and she is a real girl. She didn’t expect people to question it", Davila told thestar.com.



^As it states here, the Pageant director says she "_feels_ like a real girl"


He clearly hit that and felt like something wasn't quite right...lol


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## mali (Mar 28, 2012)

Those contestants that went out in the earlier rounds feel pissed as fuck 

Anyways, a dick shouldn't disciminate.


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## Night Prowler (Mar 28, 2012)

I'd tap that with the power of Thor.


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## SoleAccord (Mar 28, 2012)

Chibason said:


> See Below--
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That ...would take a lot of showering to wash off lol.

But really, Davila suspected this out of nowhere. She must have some kind of ..transexual-dar or something.


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## Tsukiyomi (Mar 28, 2012)

Impressive work.  Wouldn't have been able to tell if I hadn't been told.


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## Mider T (Mar 28, 2012)

Disgusting.


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## Superstars (Mar 28, 2012)

That's obviously a guy, and you can tell that work has been done.


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## Fran (Mar 28, 2012)

my penis when:


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## Meruem (Mar 28, 2012)

This is messed up...

On another note, she's beautiful.


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## Skywalker (Mar 28, 2012)

I'd still hit it.


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## Deleted member 198194 (Mar 28, 2012)

> According to Denis Davila, the national director of Miss Universe Canada, Talackova claimed on her registration form she was born a female.


She was rightfully kicked out.  If this is true, she knew the rules and lied about her personal information to get in the competition.  She should have disputed the rule in the first place before entering.


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## DisgustingIdiot (Mar 28, 2012)

Why am I not shocked to see a beauty pageant (owned by Donald Trump no less) being all regressive? Anyway, transphobic rules are disgustingly transphobic.


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 28, 2012)

its those feet , its a dead give away

Also real troopers still hit that ,


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## Mael (Mar 28, 2012)

Rob said:


> Why am I not shocked to see a beauty pageant being all regressive? Anyway, transphobic rules are disgustingly transphobic.



Transphobic would imply an innate fear of transgender.

She lied about it.  That's a breach of integrity there.


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## Satsuki (Mar 28, 2012)

Woah, she's beautiful! Absolutely gorgeous!
As for the article, transphobia is terrible, she should be allowed to compete. It says they should be born female, but she probably feels she WAS born female, just not with the right parts.


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## DisgustingIdiot (Mar 28, 2012)

Mael said:


> Transphobic would imply an innate fear of transgender.
> 
> She lied about it.  That's a breach of integrity there.



Yeah that's not the definition of the word, 

And I don't give a shit about her integrity, the rules are still transphobic.


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## Mider T (Mar 28, 2012)

Nah not really, I mean some find bunnies hot, does that mean they should get a chance to compete?


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## Megaharrison (Mar 28, 2012)

Makes sense, female beauty pageants aren't for male contestants. I'm all for tolerance, but I'm not going to expect beauty pageants to allow males in and vice versa.


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## DisgustingIdiot (Mar 28, 2012)

Megaharrison said:


> Makes sense, female beauty pageants aren't for male contestants. I'm all for tolerance, but I'm not going to expect beauty pageants to allow males in and vice versa.



She isn't a man you fucking moron.


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## Mael (Mar 28, 2012)

Rob said:


> She isn't a man you fucking moron.



Um, yes he is.  Born a man, will always be a man.  Chromosomes don't lie, kiddo.  

Nice flame there too.



Rob said:


> Yeah that's not the definition of the word,
> 
> And I don't give a shit about her integrity, the rules are still transphobic.



All right you got a point there, but I dunno she still lied no matter what.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  Frankly pageants are a load of shit anyway, I'm sure there are transgender pageants around, and frankly there are greater causes in the fight for LGBT even if I myself tend to think that all the surgery in the world won't make you a woman.  A man is still a man no matter how many blades they go under.


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## Fran (Mar 28, 2012)

Mael said:


> A man is still a man no matter how many blades they go under.



i'd still smang her though, no homo

oh wait


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 28, 2012)

Rob said:


> She isn't a man you fucking moron.



Dude looks like a lady, man.


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## Mael (Mar 28, 2012)

Rob said:


> I am absolutely fucking sick of your "I'm a grown up realist, kiddo" shit. You're just another ignorant overtly privileged bigot.
> 
> And read that fucking article, it lays out quite clearly why you're wrong. If you still don't get it after reading it then go use google and stop discounting the experiences of trans* people and the wealth of science supporting them.



I'll page the waaahmbulance for you.  I might be one in your eyes with this issue, but I just don't care.

I did read the article, but I saw nothing to back it up from certified professionals.  Looks more like a blog with pictures to me and some asspat commentary.  I don't give a Mary fuck about the experiences.  If you were born a man and think you're a woman, good luck, because you're still a man like it or not.  All the fake vaginas and breasts in the world will not make you a woman and if anything just a hollow shell of one.  Gay and lesbian are one thing, but going against your own genetic makeup?  Sorry I'm going to call a spade a spade.  Born a man, always a man, and everything else is artificial.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 28, 2012)

Rob said:


> I am absolutely fucking sick of your "I'm a grown up realist, kiddo" shit. You're just another ignorant overtly privileged bigot and the sooner you realize that, the better for everyone.
> 
> And read that fucking article, it lays out quite clearly why you're wrong. If you still don't get it after reading it then go use google and stop discounting the experiences of trans* people and the wealth of science supporting them.



Dude, they are still biologically the gender they were born as. He's right, no number of surgeries will change that. Stop getting so emotional about this and relax.


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## Mael (Mar 28, 2012)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Dude, they are still biologically the gender they were born as. He's right, no number of surgeries will change that. Stop getting so emotional about this and relax.



Idealism clouds the mind. 

/sarcasm


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## Gold Roger (Mar 28, 2012)

Rob this may be for your benefit to read and understand.




Born Male means make up is still male through and through.

One can't hide what's inside.


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## Megaharrison (Mar 28, 2012)

Rob said:


> She isn't a man you fucking moron.



He's a man who underwent plastic surgeries and hormonal procedures. It's like claiming the guy in the book "Black Like Me" was African-American because of his skin change procedure. 

I'm not talking about unfairly discriminating against him, harassing him, or what have you. But biology is biology and a crab can't become a squirrel because you staple a tail to its butt. Call it for what it is. 

And stop with the insults.


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## Xion (Mar 28, 2012)

ITT: pervasive ignorance.

It's not even worth commenting on really. Although I think the black-and-white paradigms from pre-school are kind of lulzy to read.


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## The Prodigy (Mar 28, 2012)

He's hot, but he's a she. And she's really a he. So confused..


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## Mael (Mar 28, 2012)

Xion said:


> ITT: pervasive ignorance.
> 
> It's not even worth commenting on really. Although I think the black-and-white paradigms from pre-school are kind of lulzy to read.



Inorite?  Fish can totally be birds if they think it. 

Sorry but a man is a man if he was born with a dick, two balls, and an XY.  Nothing will change that save for wizardry...which doesn't exist.


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## Xion (Mar 28, 2012)

Mael said:


> Inorite?  Fish can totally be birds if they think it.
> 
> Sorry but a man is a man if he was born with a dick, two balls, and an XY.  Nothing will change that save for wizardry...which doesn't exist.



If only things were that simple. Even physically and genetically it's really not entirely true, especially when you have chromosomal disorders or other factors that come into play at birth. Then is it about nurture, is it about there being a Y chromosome at all, is it about self-identity, or do you just toss it up to being a "third" sex? From a societal standpoint, putting everything into two categories makes sense because it's simple and it fits prevailing societal views about meaning and gender roles, but it's hardly a genetic reality both physically and behaviorally. Many people even with the genetic components that simplify such a delineation identify very strongly in the other direction and might even exhibit brain characteristics, even at a genetic and physiological level, that support that assertion.

But yes, we can certainly simplify and catalog, but it's not only offensive to many people, it's also distorting reality in more than one way. While physically from birth we can divide human gender into male, female, and "problem," from a mental standpoint on both a physiological and personal level, that can be a huge oversimplification that can wreak much chaos on an individual emotionally when meted out by society as the one "truth."


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 28, 2012)

How did she/he overcame an adams apple?


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## Xion (Mar 28, 2012)

Huey Freeman said:


> How did she/he overcame an adams apple?



Not all people are born with strong secondary sex characteristics (Ice Prince) that point in one direction or another. Additionally, while not perfect, there are surgeries to reduce secondary sex characteristics like tracheal shaving.


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## Mael (Mar 28, 2012)

See this is where we differ.  You're bringing up the nurture whereas I'm stating the fact of nature.

This man is a man who tried to become a woman.  I don't see how that's going to change who he was born as...like Lady Gaga said..."born this way."


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## Archangel Michael (Mar 28, 2012)

She could find another pageant .


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 28, 2012)

Also as a Canadian and shehe being from Canada I am not sure to be proud or worried
Proud because our country produce beautiful women even if they were a male once ago, .

Or worried I have to start screening the women I meet


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## Mael (Mar 28, 2012)

Lancebob The Tyrant Destroyer said:


> She could find another pageant .



And /thread.


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## Xion (Mar 28, 2012)

Mael said:


> See this is where we differ.  You're bringing up the nurture whereas I'm stating the fact of nature.
> 
> This man is a man who tried to become a woman.  I don't see how that's going to change who he was born as...like Lady Gaga said..."born this way."



But my point is nature is not black and white either. We can make it so, but it's a societal convention not reality. Yes, in human beings, genetics predisposes one physically (genitals and secondary sex characteristics) to be either male or female. But that expression even at that level might be "indeterminate."

Additionally, genetically and at the level of the brain, that might not be true. A female brain in a male body or vice-versa? In that case you'd probably go with sticking with primary and secondary sex characteristics, but that's merely the way you'd categorize it in that case. It's not genetic reality necessarily, but we can leave it at that level and most people do.

Doesn't necessarily mean it's the right classification.

And that doesn't even start with nurture and with the way one might identify, possibly indeterminate of genetics.


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## Mael (Mar 28, 2012)

Xion said:


> But my point is nature is not black and white either. We can make it so, but it's a societal convention not reality. Yes, in human beings, genetics predisposes one physically (genitals and secondary sex characteristics) to be either male or female. But that expression even at that level might be "indeterminate."
> 
> Additionally, genetically and at the level of the brain, that might not be true. A female brain in a male body or vice-versa? In that case you'd probably go with sticking with primary and secondary sex characteristics, but that's merely the way you'd categorize it in that case. It's not genetic reality necessarily, but we can leave it at that level and most people do.
> 
> ...



Transgender itself is a product of the mind.  It is not the body physically rejecting genitalia or the processes of a man or woman.  Call it crazy but I consider it different than that of gay or lesbian because I find transgender to be completely psychological and to identify oneself as something you are biologically not only further confirms the detachment from the reality at hand.  I'm not preaching their deaths or anything of the sort, but I'm calling a spade a spade.


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## Xion (Mar 28, 2012)

Mael said:


> Transgender itself is a product of the mind.  It is not the body physically rejecting genitalia or the processes of a man or woman.  *Call it crazy but I consider it different than that of gay or lesbian because I find transgender* to be completely psychological and to identify oneself as something you are biologically not only further confirms the detachment from the reality at hand.  I'm not preaching their deaths or anything of the sort, but I'm calling a spade a spade.



This is where I have to disagree. You can say that transsexuality is a product of the mind and I can't really disagree. After all, gender identification relies on identification which is a mental process.

But to say it's different from sexual orientation and insist that that is biological but that transsexuality is somehow not biological just makes no sense. Even though I certainly fall into the genetic predisposition camp, sexual orientation is so much more a "choice" (and I use that term very loosely) than transsexuality that to assert the converse is rather mind-boggling. I would argue that sexual identification is at a level closer to one's innate biophysical identity than their sexual orientation because identity defines oneself first and orientation defines one's preferences which itself relies on the need for an identity to make sense of the orientation.

But both are "mental" in the sense that they are processes of the brain and are obviously influenced both by genetics and by the environment. But sexual identity is less debatable a process than sexual orientation because there is more ambiguity in the latter than in the former which is typically either male or female and very rarely some state in between regardless of physical appearance or chromosomal realities. Whereas sexual orientation can be fluid, complex, and something that oneself might not even be entirely aware or sure of.

So if anything, I'd think you'd assert the other case. But I believe both to be genetically-predisposed, especially transsexuality though. But the issue is more complex than that even.


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## lacey (Mar 28, 2012)

She's quite pretty. Though pageants are laughable at best, I do feel a little bit sorry for her.


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## Mikaveli (Mar 28, 2012)

She's a he, so it makes sense.


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## EJ (Mar 28, 2012)

Wow, I don't even care. They did some work on him.


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## SwordKing (Mar 28, 2012)

She has every right to do what she wants, within reason, to her own body.

That being said, I see no difference between her situation and, for example, disqualifying another woman for having breast implanrts.

Pagaents are, usually, about natural beauty. No cosmetic surgery means no cosmetic surgery.


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## Superstars (Mar 28, 2012)

SwordKing said:


> She has every right to do what she wants, within reason, to her own body...



Oh cut this "we can do whatever we want" popcorn philosophy When this pageant and the world proves that you can't everyday.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

Superstars said:


> Oh cut this "we can do whatever we want" popcorn philosophy When this pageant and the world proves that you can't everyday.



The best way to solve a problem isn't to just accept it. Hopefully she brings exposure to this topic and something happens to alter the rules.


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## Gino (Mar 29, 2012)

ThePromise said:


> Perhaps I'm not reading the article correctly, but how did they ever guess? Judging from the pictures, it would be very difficult.


 thought the exact same thing.


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## Spock (Mar 29, 2012)

He broke the rules and got kicked out, fair enough. He should have kept to competition that allows him in.

But what bothers me the most is Donald Trump who in 2006 let  Tara Conner keep her title despite the fact she broke the rules as well. 



			
				Donald Trump said:
			
		

> "I've always been a believer in second chances."


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## Petes12 (Mar 29, 2012)

Won't lie I don't really understand the whole transgender thing, like what's it mean to feel like a 'girl' trapped in a man's body? If society didn't have gender roles would it matter at all?

But anyway, it's just a beauty contest so unless there's rules against plastic surgery in general, why should it matter? No one's asking the judges to sleep with her/him. I guess with the knowledge out in the open though, chances of her proceeding to the next round were slim anyway.


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## Karsh (Mar 29, 2012)

Meh, beauty pageants are made up of superficiality and lies in the first place.

If a pageant is looking for _natural female beauty_ then yeah, a self-made woman who got herself done should not be in it, just like anybody with make up or boob jobs or whatever.

But, in my mind, as long as pageants include make-up and touch ups, then this transgender has every right to be a part of it as, to me, it lies in the same category of make up and so on as it's making yourself look different than how you were born for whetever reason.


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## Hatifnatten (Mar 29, 2012)

waifu level or what


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## Gaawa-chan (Mar 29, 2012)

She should sue their asses off if she can.



Petes12 said:


> Won't lie I don't really understand the whole transgender thing, like what's it mean to feel like a 'girl' trapped in a man's body? If society didn't have gender roles would it matter at all?



It means that your brain does not match the rest of your body.  It really isn't all that hard to understand, and it's hardly the strangest condition medical science has come across.

Gender identity is not 'behavior' or an 'assigned role.'  It's biology.  It's one of the most deeply ingrained parts of a person's self.


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## Vegeta (Mar 29, 2012)

If the rules state that contestants must been born female... well fuck her she is in the wrong for lying.


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## Petes12 (Mar 29, 2012)

Gaawa-chan said:


> She should sue their asses off if she can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess I didn't think there were any real differences between a male and female brain that weren't totally negligible?


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## Leon (Mar 29, 2012)

The question is why they have such a rule to begin with. For all purposes regarding the competition, ''she'' is a female. If it was simply a man in drag, I would understand, it's obvious they don't want drag queens participating left and right. But this individual has relinquished all physical traits and anything typical to a male in everyday life (atleast, that's what most transgenders do). It seems this is merely an antiquated rule being upheld for no particular reason.

She did lie, but that's understandable. People aren't very accepting of openly transgendered individuals. Hell, even I would feel slightly uncomfortable being in a relationship with someone who was once male, despite me having no negative bias against the idea at all. Perhaps if she pursued me and led me to believe she was born female for a significant amount of time, my feelings could overpower the eventual truth. Perhaps she applied a similar technique here, as it was the only way she felt she would be given a chance at all.


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## Onomatopoeia (Mar 29, 2012)

It's a beauty pageant. Why should what's on the inside matter?

She was born a boy but for all intents and purposes she is now a woman. Silly ass rule.

Them's the breaks.


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## Toroxus (Mar 29, 2012)

I love the fundamental lack of respect when people refer to her as if she was still a male.


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## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Mar 29, 2012)

Fran said:


> Source:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1 heck of a change.


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## Bobby Emerald (Mar 29, 2012)

Gaawa-chan said:


> She should sue their asses off if she can.



I don't see the point of suing them.




Lancebob The Tyrant Destroyer said:


> She could find another pageant .





...Is the first thing I thought. The contest rules (essentially) called for natural born women, so...yeah. She should've went to a different contest.

All that aside, she looks pretty good for a transgender, would smash


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## CrazyMoronX (Mar 29, 2012)

Just another ugly person in a pageant filled with ugly people.


Let him play.


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## Mael (Mar 29, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> I love the fundamental lack of respect when people refer to her as if she was still a male.



Because he is still a male.  All the surgery in the world won't change the simple fact of what he was born as.


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2012)

CrazyMoronX said:


> Just another ugly person in a pageant filled with ugly people.
> 
> 
> Let him play.



You know you would....I can see that at the back of your head.


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## CrazyMoronX (Mar 29, 2012)

I would what?


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2012)

CrazyMoronX said:


> I would what?



Is that a yes ?


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Megaharrison said:


> Makes sense, female beauty pageants aren't for male contestants. I'm all for tolerance, but I'm not going to expect beauty pageants to allow males in and vice versa.





Rob said:


> She isn't a man you fucking moron.



This ^

She is legally a woman, fuck those other bitches. I could understand if it was a sporting event but in those they double check to make sure that the hormones are right.

This is pure and simple discrimination.



Toroxus said:


> I love the fundamental lack of respect when people refer to her as if she was still a male.



I have distributed out negs accordingly.


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## Mikaveli (Mar 29, 2012)

It isn't though. Not wrongful discrimination, if it's in the rules and he broke them then too bad. No amount of surgery can change what you are. 

Honestly, just find a pageant that allows "transgenders" or find one specifically for them.


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## EJ (Mar 29, 2012)

People are saying "He is a she"

So if someone turned their skin black, that would make them a black person? What you're saying doesn't make any sense. 

Genetically, he is a man.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

Your skin doesn't make you a certain race. I don't see the relevance in that example.


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## Mikaveli (Mar 29, 2012)

Just like fake breasts and a mutilated penis doesn't make you a woman.

And shaving your breasts and stretching your clit doesn't make you a man. No matter what you say, it does not.


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## EJ (Mar 29, 2012)

Exactly the point I was making Super Goob, thanks. :rofl


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 29, 2012)

Eh well. I don't think you should be allowed to enter into these contests if you've had plastic surgery of any kind anyway unless it's for medical reasons (ie; a contestant had to have a mastectomy due to cancer).

You can argue that a sex operation is a medical situation if you really want to, but this person also obviously had massive face reconstruction done as well.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

It's not that black and white. Your body doesn't define your gender mentally.  She was born a guy, but she is now a woman. According to her she was born in the wrong body.


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## Mikaveli (Mar 29, 2012)

I couldn't give less shits about a beauty pageant, so it really doesn't bother me either way. I wouldn't want to be with a girl with large amounts of plastic surgery either. 

Edit: Erio, it's a disorder. Really all I have to say about that. There's absolutely nothing normal or even logical about wanting to be the opposite sex or feeling that you are.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't know if it's right to define it as a disorder.


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Super Goob said:


> It isn't though. Not wrongful discrimination, if it's in the rules and he broke them then too bad. No amount of surgery can change what you are.
> 
> Honestly, just find a pageant that allows "transgenders" or find one specifically for them.



Then the rules are flawed.

There are a few but they don't get that much attention, there was a big one that took place in 2006 however.


Super Goob said:


> Just like fake breasts and a mutilated penis doesn't make you a woman.
> 
> And shaving your breasts and stretching your clit doesn't make you a man. No matter what you say, it does not.



That is just pure ignorance about what it means to be transgendered.


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## EJ (Mar 29, 2012)

Erio Touwa said:


> It's not that black and white. Your body doesn't define your gender mentally.  She was born a guy, but she is now a woman. According to her she was born in the wrong body.



If he was born a man, that makes him a man. No amount of mutilating your penis or breast implants can change that.


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## EJ (Mar 29, 2012)

Erio Touwa said:


> I don't know if it's right to define it as a disorder.



Because it sounds harsh?


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## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

Being born male couldn't be helped. She was comfortable in a male's body. Sure she doesn't have proper reproductive organs, but for all intent and purposes she is a woman.

It sounds very harsh.


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Super Goob said:


> Erio, it's a disorder. Really all I have to say about that. There's absolutely nothing normal or even logical about wanting to be the opposite sex or feeling that you are.



That again shows how little you know about the situation. It isn't about wanting to be a different gender, it is about needing to be. They literally have the brain of that gender, scans and test prove that, even their hormones before getting treatment were more "reversed" than the gender of their body. Example: Many transgender women had very little hair anywhere on their body before their sex change, inversely transgender men had different muscle structure than "normal" women.


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## Hand Banana (Mar 29, 2012)

Should change outdated laws.


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## Mikaveli (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't understand how they're "flawed". They're looking for whatever they want. You can disagree with them though, no one is saying you can't. I don't care though.

What would you define it as then? Just because it's "harmless" that doesn't change that it's not normal.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 29, 2012)

One of the judges should have taken her aside privately and demand she prove to him/her how much of a woman she really was with a demonstration. Only after having that proven, and it should have been as scrupulous as possible (including multiple positions), should she have been allowed to stay in the competition.  

Baring the above, i guess it depends on how fast and loose you want to be with how much staying power "birth sex" has when using sex as a criteria in competition.  For something that doesn't factor in to account athleticism, I'd suppose objectively it shouldn't matter.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

Normal is such a over used term. What you may find right I may think it's wrong. If something isn't considering normal now doesn't mean it can't change in the future.


----------



## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Hand Banana said:


> Should change outdated laws.






Super Goob said:


> I don't understand how they're "flawed". They're looking for whatever they want. You can disagree with them though, no one is saying you can't. I don't care though.
> 
> What would you define it as then? Just because it's "harmless" that doesn't change that it's not normal.



Don't you fucking DARE!!! describe it as harmless that just pushes it aside as a irrelevant and a non-issue. And fuck normally, you want normal go clone a bunch of Barbies and Kens with blond hair and blue eyes.


----------



## Mikaveli (Mar 29, 2012)

Normal in this sense is the accurate thing to do though. Just like eating is normal, breathing is normal, etc. Chopping off sex organs is not that. And I doubt being "transgender" will ever be the norm. I'll even say it never will be. It's too bizarre, and it's not even something that is common.

"Being born male couldn't be helped," Since when was gender something analogous to disease or retardation? I don't understand that at all.

You don't "need" to be a certain gender. That's the most retarded shit I've ever heard.

Barbie and Ken dolls are fucking dolls. Regular people are people. Men are men and women are women. It's not much deeper than that lol.

Edit: Speak your peace (piece?), but I'm done posting here. Not really something I care much about. And it's straying off topic.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 29, 2012)

Though I respect a person's choice, this may be irrelevant. The rules of the pageant is that you are born a female. It is stated, not implied. The woman lied, which is an ethical breach in terms of her career. 

If one wants change, they must change the rules.


----------



## Terra Branford (Mar 29, 2012)

> *"She feels like a real girl and she is a real girl.* She didn?t expect people to question it", Davila told thestar.com.


What in the world?


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

Super Goob said:


> Normal in this sense is the accurate thing to do though. Just like eating is normal, breathing is normal, etc. Chopping off sex organs is not that. And I doubt being "transgender" will ever be the norm. I'll even say it never will be. It's too bizarre, and it's not even something that is common.



Eating and breathing are required for us to continue. It's more common then it may seem.


----------



## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Super Goob said:


> Normal in this sense is the accurate thing to do though. Just like eating is normal, breathing is normal, etc. Chopping off sex organs is not that. And I doubt being "transgender" will ever be the norm. I'll even say it never will be. It's too bizarre, and it's not even something that is common.



Normal is never used as a valid argument that is an "appealing to the populace" logical fallacy. Just because everyone thinks or does so does not mean it is right. I'm not saying everyone should suddenly change genders that would serve no purpose but claiming something is wrong just because it is not done by everyone is not how we evolve as a society.



Super Goob said:


> "Being born male couldn't be helped," Since when was gender something  analogous to disease or retardation? I don't understand that at all.
> 
> You don't "need" to be a certain gender. That's the most retarded shit I've ever heard.
> 
> Barbie and Ken dolls are fucking dolls. Regular people are people. Men  are men and women are women. It's not much deeper than that lol.



You have no idea how it feels for transgenders. They live their lives  being something they do not fit into. If you are born without legs you  get prosthetics, if you are born with a mind that does not match the  body, you fix the body. And no matter how much we change their body  transgenders still do not feel complete because we are not yet at the  point where the change is perfect.


----------



## EJ (Mar 29, 2012)

Erio Touwa said:


> Being born male couldn't be helped. She was comfortable in a male's body. Sure she doesn't have proper reproductive organs, but for all intent and purposes she is a woman.
> 
> It sounds very harsh.



So what you're basically saying is

1. Yes, he was born into a man's body.

2. Yes, it couldn't be helped he wanted to be a woman even though genetically he was a man.

3. Yes, he doesn't have one of the most unique features of a woman.

4. Yes, he mutilated his own penis, and implanted breast and changed the structure of his own face.


5. No, he doesn't have a disorder.

Yeah, not seeing how that isn't a disorder. Though, what someone does with their body is none of my business.


----------



## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

You ever have one of those times when you just want to reach out and choke someone through the computer.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

I honestly can't find the words I need to use. Mind isn't have  good day today.


----------



## EJ (Mar 29, 2012)

Erio Touwa said:


> I honestly can't find the words I need to use. Mind isn't have  good day today.



Just respond back if you're able to form an argument against that. Just because something sounds harsh doesn't mean it's the truth.

Like I said, what someone does with their own body isn't anyone's business though.


----------



## Toroxus (Mar 29, 2012)

Mael said:


> Because he is still a male.  All the surgery in the world won't change the simple fact of what he was born as.



And what difference does that make and why should you or anyone else one care?
*Live and Let Live* is the lesson of the day.


----------



## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Flow said:


> So what you're basically saying is
> 
> 1. Yes, he was born into a man's body.
> 
> ...



She, *She*, She, She, *SHE*, learn how to use fucking pronouns.

1) She was born with a body different from her mind

2) Genetically her mind is that of a female, physically her body is that of a male, can't change the mind so change the body

3) what?

4) Not all transgendered women have breast implants many form their breast naturally due to hormones.

5) No, SHE does not.


Flow said:


> Just respond back if you're able to form an argument against that. Just because something sounds harsh doesn't mean it's the truth.
> 
> Like I said, what someone does with their own body isn't anyone's business though.



It has nothing to do with sounding harsh, it is because to be classified as a disorder it has to disrupt functioning.

According to the Church of Latter Day Saints, being black is a curse that was placed upon by God, so if Mormons were in charged being black would be classified as a disorder, so by your logic it is.


----------



## Mael (Mar 29, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> And what difference does that make and why should you or anyone else one care?
> *Live and Let Live* is the lesson of the day.



Because at the end of the day I cannot call this person a woman.  I won't be as crude to call it lipstick on a pig, but I'm simply stating that in my heart of hearts with this person's origin and biological makeup that it is male but simply being masked by reconstructive surgery.  Free to do as they please, but don't expect me to change my attitude by artificial aesthetics, artificial hormone implants, and the like.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

Well it's not just the fact that it sounds harsh, but the fact that it just doesn't seem to fit the condition. Disorder seems to imply something mentally wrong with the person and I don't think that is completely accurate to say. By all means it's not what would be considered normal but I don't think a label such as that fits it.


----------



## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Mael said:


> Because at the end of the day I cannot call this person a woman.  I won't be as crude to call it lipstick on a pig, but I'm simply stating that in my heart of hearts with this person's origin and biological makeup that it is male but simply being masked by reconstructive surgery.



Then by the logic it is perfectly reasonable for racist to call black people ^ (use bro), because in their heart hearts with that person's origin and biological make up that is African, simply being in a society that considers them equal does not mean that they really are.

Because that is exactly what you are doing, by calling them the wrong pronounce on purpose you are denying them their right to be what they were meant to be and what they want to be perceived as. You are making all their effort to be a woman or man, useless because in your eyes they are just fucked up.


----------



## EJ (Mar 29, 2012)

Erio Touwa said:


> Well it's not just the fact that it sounds harsh, but the fact that it just doesn't seem to fit the condition. Disorder seems to imply something mentally wrong with the person




I'm just trying to figure this out. Would you say someone on the "painful Olympics" (I think it's a site where people chop off their own genitals) have something mentally wrong with them? 



> and I don't think that is completely accurate to say. By all means it's not what would be considered normal but I don't think a label such as that fits it.



 If someone doesn't like the way they are born and would do something to that extreme in order to make them into something they are not, will never be, then I believe it's a disorder.


----------



## Toroxus (Mar 29, 2012)

Mael said:


> Because at the end of the day I cannot call this person a woman.  I won't be as crude to call it lipstick on a pig, but I'm simply stating that in my heart of hearts with this person's origin and biological makeup that it is male but simply being masked by reconstructive surgery.  Free to do as they please, but don't expect me to change my attitude by artificial aesthetics, artificial hormone implants, and the like.



A "woman" is a word, and a person is who they are regardless of words. She is a she as much as any other hers around her for all the world should care. If there's a problem with understanding that, it's their own difficulties in grasping such things, not the subject in question. She was a she from the day she was born regardless of how fucked her genetics were. She was a female masked as a male at birth.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

That was mutilation, this was a medical procedure. 

I can't honestly tell you how to think, so I can't properly reply to the second part.


----------



## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Flow said:


> I'm just trying to figure this out. Would you say someone on the "painful Olympics" (I think it's a site where people chop off their own genitals) have something mentally wrong with them?
> 
> If someone doesn't like the way they are born and would do something to that extreme in order to make them into something they are not, will never be, then I believe it's a disorder.





Really comparing having a sex change to the fucking pain olympics.


----------



## Slayer (Mar 29, 2012)

She's _fucking hot_. I'd tap it. 

Those saying it's wrong/terrible/disgusting: Why the hell do _you_ care what she does with her body? Why do you care she used to be a guy? Does she _look_ like a guy to you? If you hadn't read this, would those pictures have brought up the thought "Oh yeah it's a transsexual"? I've never understood those that give a shit about what other people do be it being a different sexual orientation, have a sex change, ect. And, she _legally is a girl in the eyes of the law_. So I don't see people think its wrong.


----------



## Mael (Mar 29, 2012)

Bioness said:


> Then by the logic it is perfectly reasonable for racist to call black people ^ (use bro), because in their heart hearts with that person's origin and biological make up that is African, simply being in a society that considers them equal does not mean that they really are.
> 
> Because that is exactly what you are doing, by calling them the wrong pronounce on purpose you are denying them their right to be what they were meant to be and what they want to be perceived as. You are making all their effort to be a woman or man, useless because in your eyes they are just fucked up.



Not really, because ^ (use bro) is a racial epithet used as a pejorative.  Woman is not an epithet but a word to describe a gender in a non-insulting manner.  Your appeal to semantics really failed here.

I'm calling them what they were born as.  It's not my doing when genetics decided to dictate this.  You say what they were meant to be like it's destiny or some existential fate.  Sorry but biology wants to have a word with you when it decided to craft the baby with the set chromosomes.  The psychological conditioning came later on.

I'm not going to pretend to know how they feel, but what I won't pretend is when someone alters themselves to try to be something they were never born as.  I wasn't born with the genetics of an Asian and all the cosmetic surgery in the world will not change that.  This individual wants to think he's a woman?  Fine.  I won't stop him, but I won't alter my definition of a woman for his feelings.

You sound like you're crying about this.  Pray to God you don't end up like Rob and start throwing a hissy fit because you're smarter than that.



Toroxus said:


> A "woman" is a word, and a person is who they are regardless of words. She is a she as much as any other hers around her for all the world should care. If there's a problem with that, it's with their own difficulties in grasping such things, not the subject in question. *She was a she from the day she was born regardless of how fucked her genetics were. She was a female masked as a male at birth.*



No, he wasn't, because genetics and biology dictated that he be born a man.  The mental conditioning came later.  I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that when this person was five, they weren't screaming to not have a penis.  You can talk all you want about social conditioning but anatomy is not going to lie.  The transgender condition is psychological.


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## EJ (Mar 29, 2012)

Who has been saying it's disgusting?

The only thing I've been saying is that I will refer to him as a man.


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## WT (Mar 29, 2012)

Disgusting.


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## EJ (Mar 29, 2012)

Erio Touwa said:


> That was mutilation, this was a medical procedure.




A medical procedure  to surgically either remove/mutilate the penis because you want to have a "vagina".


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Mael said:


> Not really, because ^ (use bro) is a racial epithet used as a pejorative.  Woman is not an epithet but a word to describe a gender in a non-insulting manner.  Your appeal to semantics really failed here.
> 
> I'm calling them what they were born as.  It's not my doing when genetics decided to dictate this.  You say what they were meant to be like it's destiny or some existential fate.  Sorry but biology wants to have a word with you when it decided to craft the baby with the set chromosomes.  The psychological conditioning came later on.
> 
> ...



You are right with being transgendered being psychological, but everything we humans do is psychological, and psychology is based off biology. 

And if you really knew biology you would know that while the chromosomes show a gender while in the womb we are all originally female, and sometimes the body changes but the brain is unaffected which is what happens here. And other times the brain changes while the body is unaffected. This is all biology. Everything about this is from factors beyond a person's control before they were born.

And you can bet your bottom dollar they were talking like that when they were five. Many LGBT shows early signs of "gender confusion" as early as they can talk. I myself hated get "boy" oriented toys while I was fucking 3 years old. This has nothing to do with social conditioning. Social condition can change behavior NEVER thought. Look up stories of transgendered people you will see them ALL talk about early signs such as wearing their Mother's make-up, never wearing dressing, crying about not being able to wear a dress, and yes wanting to have a fucking penis.

Do your research about something before making baseless assumptions about a topic which you never cared to learn about.

So you should refer to her as female, because let's be honest you're smarter than that. which is surprising me because I thought you would be on the more open side of this kind of discussion.


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## Bishop (Mar 29, 2012)

Can someone clearly explain what the current argument here is to a simpleton like me? I'm confused, to me it seems like people are debating what makes a person one gender or another, but I know that's not entirely it.


Thank you.


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

The proper use of pronouns to transgenders and basic sensitively "training" with some of the more ignorant members.


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## Gunners (Mar 29, 2012)

Threads like these always bring about a laugh or two.


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## Mael (Mar 29, 2012)

Bioness said:


> The proper use of pronouns to transgenders and basic sensitively "training" with some of the more ignorant members.



I'm open with gays and lesbians because those are clearly defined orientations and 99% with genitalia intact.  They're of sexual orientation, not what gender you actually are.

If you were born a man you're a man and I really don't care otherwise.  Your mind and emotions can say one thing when you get older but your chromosomes beg to differ.  They didn't make a mistake because they don't have such capability.


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## Gold Roger (Mar 29, 2012)

The fact of the matter is rules are rules.

The pageant commission have free speech to make their own rules.

Jut like those who disapprove have their opinion on the matter. 

I say the best way to voice your opinions about it being wrong are like any other citizen who thinks something is wrong would do.

Protest, write letters, etc.


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## Sillay (Mar 29, 2012)

The problem I have with this is that she obviously had to undergo many surgeries to get to how she looks now. That's not the point of beauty pageants. As shallow as they are, they're meant to judge on a woman's natural beauty whilst enhanced with makeup and the like. Most probably get a boob job or a nose job ("nasal condition", ahem), but Jenna Talackova obviously had to undergo major surgery to get to how she looks now. A man is not born looking like a woman, and that's that.


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Mael said:


> I'm open with gays and lesbians because those are clearly defined orientations and 99% with genitalia intact.  They're of sexual orientation, not what gender you actually are.
> 
> If you were born a man you're a man and I really don't care otherwise.  Your mind and emotions can say one thing when you get older but your chromosomes beg to differ.  They didn't make a mistake because they don't have such capability.



I'm not blaming chromosomes but you can have 3 chromosomes that don't match any gender so that is no way to pick someone's sex, not to mention the cases with hermaphrodites, chromosomes aren't absolute.  I say sex because sex is physical, gender is social. Learn it.



Sillay said:


> The problem I have with this is that she  obviously had to undergo many surgeries to get to how she looks now.  That's not the point of beauty pageants. As shallow as they are, they're  meant to judge on a woman's natural beauty whilst enhanced with makeup  and the like. Most probably get a boob job or a nose job ("nasal  condition", ahem), but Jenna Talackova obviously had to undergo major  surgery to get to how she looks now. A man is not born looking like a  woman, and that's that.



That shows how much you know. I've already stated the power of hormones, they do most of the work. The only thing you need to have done when getting a sex change is having your penis or vagina remodeled and if needed have breast augmentation.


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2012)

Can I get a female/s opinion on this matter please.


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

^ Why and about what?


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2012)

Because basically a bunch of guys arguing what it takes to be a girl basically.

Secondly what the other contestants feel about this.


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

I honestly doubt any female on this site is a beauty contestant, and obviously we can see what they think.

And this isn't about what it means to be a woman, it is about transgendered issues which involve all the sexes not just male and female.


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## Bobby Emerald (Mar 29, 2012)

Bioness said:


> And if you really knew biology you would know that while the chromosomes show a gender while in the womb we are all originally female, and sometimes the body changes but the brain is unaffected which is what happens here. And other times the brain changes while the body is unaffected. This is all biology. Everything about this is from factors beyond a person's control before they were born.



Hold up. I know I'm kinda off topic here, but can I get the source(s) for this?


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

Bobby Emerald said:


> Hold up. I know I'm kinda off topic here, but can I get the source(s) for this?



Absolutely! This is likely the best source and is from the National Center for Transgender Equality.



Here is the passage on the possible cause(s).



> Why are people transgender? What causes it?
> 
> There are a number of theories about why transgender people exist although there is
> not yet scientific consensus.
> ...


----------



## Bobby Emerald (Mar 29, 2012)

I see...
Where are _they_ getting this research from though? I feel the need to see the research before I'm 100% convinced.

You don't have to answer; I'm currently digging for answers on my own. I'm just that kind of guy. *shrugs*

Thanks for responding.


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## Bioness (Mar 29, 2012)

My knowledge of this comes from years and years of exposure.

I am a gay male and have tried to learn as much about my identity every since I was 11 years old, in doing so I began to learn about sexualities as well as Gender Identity Disorder.

They get their information from the same source, just bits and pieces from decades of research. This isn't something new this is something that has been intensively studied and is about people's lives. They gather polls do individual studies, like asking the parents of transgendered people what their upbringing was like, how many siblings do they have (this is actually a large factor in sexual identity), what medications or stresses might the mother have had while pregnant.


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## Samehada (Mar 29, 2012)

Bishop said:


> Though I respect a person's choice, this may be irrelevant. The rules of the pageant is that you are born a female. It is stated, not implied. The woman lied, which is an ethical breach in terms of her career.
> 
> If one wants change, they must change the rules.



Yes, but it is what defines a woman. Thats what isnt defined.


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## Xyloxi (Mar 30, 2012)

Whether you deep down disagree on that this individual is a woman, wouldn't it make life better to just treat her as a woman, as I'd like to treat people as how I'd like them to treat me.


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## Bishop (Mar 30, 2012)

Samehada said:


> Yes, but it is what defines a woman. Thats what isnt defined.



As far as I know: There are five official genders: Male, Female, Hermaphroditus, XXXY (webbed feet), and Other (many more are grouped under this). There is no room for interpretation: XX is female. There are 2 main pairs of chromosomes but there are others also, this doesn't mess up what makes a man or women. If someone is born with 47 chromosomes instead of 46 we match the X's and Y and call them a male with down syndrome. There is no guess work in the scientific realm on this. 

The pageant participant is a woman now, but was born a man. This matters because when medical procedures need to go underway, she can't say she is a woman, but rather a man for her own safety.


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## Kaitlyn (Mar 30, 2012)

She's actually more beautiful than most real women, especially that girl from Korea from the OP. They should have let her stay in the competition.


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## TenshiNeko (Mar 31, 2012)

She's very pretty, even if she used to be a guy. I think it's a person's own business if they feel the need to have transgender surgery. She's still very pretty....


....However, she knew what the rules were when she entered the pageant. Contestants had to be born female. I'm sure there are other rules too, such as the age range they have to be within, and I'm guessing Miss Canada would have to be Canadian. If you lie about those things on your application they have every right to disqualify you


Even if you think the rules are wrong, a contestant would have to legally challenge the rule beforehand to gain the right to enter the pageant. Instead she just lied and said she was born female. It's the same as if she lied and said she was Canadian when she was not. They weren't wrong to disqualify her 


I read somewhere that she had previously competed in transgender pageants, and somehow it was found out, or rumored around. That's why the judges questioned her about it. Maybe somebody recognized her from one of those pageants


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## Rabbit and Rose (Mar 31, 2012)

i see no hips, i say miss universe should be

she was so hot in the movie
now she has hips


----------



## Shima Tetsuo (Mar 31, 2012)

Men aren't women.


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## Kue (Mar 31, 2012)

Shima Tetsuo said:


> Men aren't women.



Of course men aren't women.  But the woman in the OP is a woman because she identifies herself as such.  Men and women specify what gender the person is.

Now as for sex (whether the person is male and female), would all depend on what is between her legs.


----------



## Shima Tetsuo (Mar 31, 2012)

Kue said:


> Of course men aren't women.  But the woman in the OP is a woman because she identifies herself as such.  Men and women specify what gender the person is.



That's not how it works. 

The OP is about a mentally ill male with a mutilated body. He is not female. Just like all of the schizophrenics in the world who believe that they are Jesus, are not Jesus.

If wishing hard enough is what made things true, the world would perhaps be a more interesting place, but it doesn't, and never will.


----------



## Kue (Mar 31, 2012)

Shima Tetsuo said:


> That's not how it works.
> 
> The OP is about a mentally ill male with a mutilated body.



Explain how she is mentally ill.  You can call it a mutilated body, but I'm sure she is happy with what she has.



> He is not female. Just like all of the schizophrenics in the world who believe that they are Jesus, are not Jesus.



Saying female would be her sex, and I wouldn't have a way to confirm that.  I'm sure you meant to say woman in this phrase, but what is the definition of a woman to you? And an identity is different than being an actual person.



> If wishing hard enough is what made things true, the world would perhaps be a more interesting place, but it doesn't, and never will.



I'm sure she wouldn't be in denial that she was born a man and at the same time comfortable with her identity.


----------



## Shima Tetsuo (Mar 31, 2012)

Kue said:


> Explain how she is mentally ill.



Yeah, let's do the time honoured dance of pretentiously superficial open-mindedness and willful ignorance, because you feel so good about yourself for pretending not to know exactly why this man is fucked in the head.

Or we could just... Not... And skip straight to the part where you gloat about the fact that I am uninterested in stating the obvious, and attempt to portray it as my inability to do so.

Fun, fun, fun. I'd rather succumb to batshit insanity, cut off my dick and pretend that doing so makes me a woman.


----------



## Kue (Mar 31, 2012)

Shima Tetsuo said:


> Yeah, let's do the time honoured dance of pretentiously superficial open-mindedness and willful ignorance, because you feel so good about yourself for pretending not to know exactly why this man is fucked in the head.



I simply asked you what exactly makes her mentally ill.  Of course I'll have my own personal bias just as anyone else, but you've made an assertion and I wanted you to explain it further.



> Or we could just... Not... And skip straight to the part where you gloat about the fact that I am uninterested in stating the obvious, and attempt to portray it as my inability to do so.



Yes I know I did that with another argument you did, but it was an emotional reaction how you did it very distatefully.  I should have kept my cool.



> Fun, fun, fun. I'd rather succumb to batshit insanity, cut off my dick and pretend that doing so makes me a woman.



Well, we have no idea if she has undergone operation, and if you knew about the operation, it isn't as simple as cutting off your own dick.  And you haven't defined what a woman is, so I can't really progress further in this discussion until I know what a woman is to you.


----------



## AfterGlow (Mar 31, 2012)

I guess this answers the age old question; "if it looks, walks and talks like a woman, would you fuck it like a woman?" for many guys in this thread


----------



## Mathias124 (Mar 31, 2012)

Red Queen said:


> i see no hips, i say miss universe should be
> 
> she was so hot in the movie
> now she has hips



She did not look hot imo, nice body but her face is kind of average, and in many scenes below


----------



## The Weeknd (Mar 31, 2012)

Well that sucks


----------



## Sasori (Mar 31, 2012)

I'd hit it.


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## The Weeknd (Mar 31, 2012)

Red Queen said:


> i see no hips, i say miss universe should be
> 
> she was so hot in the movie
> now she has hips



Fuck yes. Hot hot hot.


----------



## Miss Fortune (Mar 31, 2012)

This transgender looks better than most of the females!!

BAN BAN BAN!


----------



## Rabbit and Rose (Mar 31, 2012)

Mathias124 said:


> She did not look hot imo, nice body but her face is kind of average, and in many scenes below



Because she has big lips and a round face, she doesn't depict that generic European idea of beauty that all the models have? You are right, she has a sexy body.


----------



## AngstToThePeople (Apr 1, 2012)

Bishop said:


> There is no room for interpretation: XX is female.



Bishop, I always appreciate the quite respectful and rational way in which you argue, but I am afraid this is not strictly true. And I am referring to XX is being female, and XY being male.

Let us use a few examples. First of all, what of XY individuals with complete congenital Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS)? They are born with a XY genotype, but with otherwise all the physical and biological characteristics of a female human.

This is a what a person with complete AIS looks _without any surgery whatsoever:_


*Spoiler*: __ 









Now let us take an opposite example; a XX individual born with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH), and having undergone severe viriliazation in utero, as it happens in most cases of CAH. The infant will look in almost every way male, except from the penis being smaller than average, and will also undergo a male puberty, and thus, for every intent and purpose except from fertility, the human will be male.

Here are some individuals with CAH, that have not taken any testosterone blockers, and have been let to develop "naturally":


*Spoiler*: __ 











*In conclusion:*

Genotype and gender do not always coincide. A slightly less rigid approach to gender is required.


----------



## Karsh (Apr 1, 2012)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> One of the judges should have taken her aside privately and demand she prove to him/her how much of a woman she really was with a demonstration. Only after having that proven, and it should have been as scrupulous as possible (including multiple positions), should she have been allowed to stay in the competition.



Can't say I like your comment much because it brings up the question of: what is a woman? What is a man?

So many people can only register simplistic categorizations which do not really reflect reality as it's always a superficial categorization that we give.
We're more precise about animal and plant categorizations than we are about each other and in my mind there should be none at all.

The answer: it's not that simple and it means very different things to each individual, like in anything else.


----------



## Sasori (Apr 1, 2012)

lol       b&


----------



## Blue (Apr 1, 2012)

Lot of platinum mad in this thread. 

Anyway, I'm inclined to agree that if she (she's a she because - let me explain this to you - there's absolutely no reason to call her a he except being a douchebag) if she wanted to compete, she should have petitioned to have the rules changed instead of filing a fraudulent application. 



Xion said:


> tracheal shaving.


That is possibly the most horrific combination of two words possible.


----------



## Blue (Apr 1, 2012)

Also yes I would hit it like the fist of the north, south, east and west stars. I would super star hit it.


----------



## mali (Apr 1, 2012)

lol this is still going 

Lets just end it with her stilll being smangable, 'kay


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Apr 1, 2012)

Holy shit, that is one quality tranny. No jawline giveaway, no huge hands or broad shoulders, a woman's waist... 

Too bad, rules are the rules. Would have been funny to see her/him compete.


----------



## Iovan (Apr 1, 2012)

It's a eunuch with tits. Any argument otherwise is just make believe. As for the contest you break the rules you get disqualified. No crying about discrimination should change that.



Bioness said:


> The proper use of pronouns to transgenders and *basic sensitively "training"* with some of the more ignorant members.



LOL. "Everyone play nice. Respect each others beliefs and opinions" (unless they contradict special group 57). Sensitivity at the cost of reason is a poor trade.


----------



## vampiredude (Apr 1, 2012)

There should be a way to change your gender officially as well.


----------



## AngstToThePeople (Apr 1, 2012)

vampiredude said:


> There should be a way to change your gender officially as well.



In many Western countries there are ways to legally change your official sex, and in quite a few states of the USA there are laws specifically to protect transgender people from discrimination when it comes to the job market, for example.

Furthermore, for cases of intersexed people, like the ones I stated higher up on this page, it is common practice for the gender specified on one's ID not to coincide with one's genotype, even in less socially developed countries.

Just because some people are still having difficulty grasping that sex and gender are, both in the biological and social sense, not black and white, it doesn't mean that Law has not actually made the right provisions to deal with such cases. 

It's a situation where Law is actually far ahead compared to the general public's mentality, but I am hoping that a better education will help some things be better understood.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 1, 2012)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Holy shit, that is one quality tranny. No jawline giveaway, no huge hands or broad shoulders, a woman's waist...
> 
> Too bad, rules are the rules. Would have been funny to see her/him compete.



The word "tranny" is very offensive, I would not suggest using it especially if you are a cisgender person.

Also as I have said before in this thread those who have Gender Identity Disorder will often have a physical mix of both male and female, like she may not of had much hair on her arms and legs and was shorter than the average male, that kind of stuff.


----------



## xetal (Apr 2, 2012)

Bioness said:


> Also as I have said before in this thread those who have Gender Identity Disorder will often have a physical mix of both male and female, like she may not of had much hair on her arms and legs and was shorter than the average male, that kind of stuff.



[citation needed]


----------



## Bioness (Apr 2, 2012)

I know it is bad but can't exactly find one it was noted on this documentary I was watching.


----------



## xetal (Apr 2, 2012)

Bioness said:


> I know it is bad but can't exactly find one it was noted on this documentary I was watching.



lol          .


----------



## Xyloxi (Apr 2, 2012)

People who consider this person to be male, would you say that if a man is sexually attracted to them, it would be homosexual?


----------



## Iovan (Apr 2, 2012)

I would say they were tricked by a convincing _illusion_ that played upon the sexual characteristics they are attracted to naturally. That doesn't change what the person is.


----------



## Rabbit and Rose (Apr 2, 2012)

transvestite.  We should make that a 3rd gender. Isn't there a beauty contest for transvestites?


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 2, 2012)

Iovan said:


> I would say they were tricked by a convincing _illusion_ that played upon the sexual characteristics they are attracted to naturally. That doesn't change what the person is.



Why do you care so much about how a person was born?


----------



## Bishop (Apr 2, 2012)

Red Queen said:


> transvestite.  We should make that a 3rd gender. Isn't there a beauty contest for transvestites?



Yes       .


----------



## Iovan (Apr 2, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Why do you care so much about how a person was born?



I personally don't care. Facts are facts though. That's part of the problem I find with this PC bullshit. Trying to salve each others feelings (only for special people though). I got involved in the conversation because of the post that mentioned "sensitivity training" which is a big crock of shit. Hiding from the truth is why so many people are dysfunctional today. There are merits to being polite but there needs to be limits. That is a man with a mutilated penis made to emulate a vagina and hormones to acquire female secondary sex characteristics. Pretending that man is in fact a woman is just a lie.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 2, 2012)

Iovan said:


> I personally don't care. Facts are facts though. [Shit that isn't about what I said] That is a man with a mutilated penis made to emulate a vagina and hormones to acquire female secondary sex characteristics. Pretending that man is in fact a woman is just a lie.



You know, I maybe a Biologist, but if someone extends the courtesy to treat me and others as we want to be treated, then I'll extend the courtesy to treat them how they want to be treated.

Besides, I know a few males with mutilated penises and that many other males wouldn't consider them to be real men. 

But it's true, that facts are the facts. If a person was born a female but in a male body, that'll never change. However, the fact that if you continue to treat them like a male when they don't want to be makes you an asshole in their eyes. Thus, you shouldn't be surprised when people don't give you any courtesies.


----------



## Iovan (Apr 2, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> You know, I maybe a Biologist, but if someone extends the courtesy to treat me and others as we want to be treated, then I'll extend the courtesy to treat them how they want to be treated.



So you will blatantly lie to make someone feel better. Cool?



> Besides, I know a few males with mutilated penises and that many other males wouldn't consider them to be real men.



Where does the views of other people fit into this discussion between you and I?



> But it's true, that facts are the facts. If a person was born a female but in a male body, that'll never change. However, the fact that if you continue to treat them like a male when they don't want to be makes you an asshole in their eyes. Thus, you shouldn't be surprised when people don't give you any courtesies.



I really don't mind if they think I'm an asshole. I think they are a sad person to be pitied. I don't hate the person and I won't go out of my way to insult them personally. That's just cruel in my eyes. However when discussing the issue as it is brought up I won't just lie.


----------



## sworder (Apr 2, 2012)

How would their crotch look? I imagine it does not resemble a vagina at all, but I am curious.


----------



## EJ (Apr 2, 2012)

Why does it matter if someone calls him a man or a woman? It seems like a choice. If the person isn't saying OH MY GOD EWWW WHY WOULD HE DO THAT TO HIMSELF and being an immature dick head about it, you are in no right to call someone a bigot if they aren't calling that person a man/woman.

It just seems as though some of you want to argue over something that is an opinion. Focus more on the people calling him an it.


----------



## Iovan (Apr 2, 2012)

No! You can't just tolerate you must accept! If you don't then you are a horrible biggot.


----------



## EJ (Apr 2, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> You know, I maybe a Biologist, but if someone extends the courtesy to treat me and others as we want to be treated, then I'll extend the courtesy to treat them how they want to be treated.



......but they don't see them as a woman/man. It's more than just being petty, it's a "You were born a man, but asked for surgery in order to turn yourself into a .... "woman"



> Besides, I know a few males with mutilated penises and that many other males wouldn't consider them to be real men.




.......WHAT?



> But it's true, that facts are the facts. If a person was born a female but in a male body, that'll never change. However, the fact that if you continue to treat them like a male when they don't want to be makes you an asshole in their eyes. Thus, you shouldn't be surprised when people don't give you any courtesies.



What do you mean "treat them like a man"? So we should stoop to this level?

If someone isn't being an asshole to these people, (calling them an it, calling them freaks etc), then I would have to honestly say "tough shit". What you're doing is "Fuck your prerogatives/beliefs, I have my own. Respect mine."


----------



## EJ (Apr 2, 2012)

Iovan said:


> No! You can't just tolerate you must accept! If you don't then you are a horrible biggot.



I think that's why a lot of people are so pissed off. They get called bigots when they tolerate, but they don't "accept" these people. I honestly can't blame them. 

"You better call her a woman! Who cares if she wasn't born a woman! Who cares if she had to mutilate her penis and got fake breast! Who cares if she can't give birth! What matters is she wants to be called a woman, and you are just a horrible, HORRIBLE person for not doing this. "

EDIT:

I swear to god, that's like someone getting the ear's from a dead cow, perm painting themselves black and white, turning obese, and giving themselves utters, then saying "I'm a cow! "

"Now respect my moooos, or you're a bad bad person! "


----------



## Fran (Apr 2, 2012)

sworder said:


> How would their crotch look? I imagine it does not resemble a vagina at all, but I am curious.



just stick it in her pooper


----------



## Bioness (Apr 2, 2012)

Red Queen said:


> transvestite.  We should make that a 3rd gender. Isn't there a beauty contest for transvestites?



There are technically 5 genders currently I believe. Also the word transvestite is offensive, please do not use that.

*Trans:* _(sex/gender)_  shortened version of and slang term for Transsex/Transsexual,  Transgender or Transvestite, and slang term which can be used to mean  all or any identities of non-binary sex/gender, except Intersex.

*Transgender:* _(gender)_ trans- meaning cross; when the sex of the body does not match the gender of the mind, and one identifying with this.

*Transition:* _(sex)_ see SRS; the entire process of changing sex, including hormones and surgery.

*Transsex/Transsexual:* _(sex)_  trans- meaning cross; having been born in the wrong sex body, often  having treatment to change the sex of the body, and one identifying with  this.

*Transvestite:* _(gender)_ trans- meaning cross; see also Drag King or Drag Queen; somebody who practices Drag / Cross Dressing.

Please educate yourself





Bishop said:


> Yes       .



There are but they are very local and small time usually. The biggest one was in 2006 and it was documented, current ones aren't as big.


----------



## Iovan (Apr 2, 2012)

^ lol 5 genders. I can't imagine someone saying that with a straight face.


----------



## Bishop (Apr 2, 2012)

Bioness said:


> There are but they are very local and small time usually. The biggest one was in 2006 and it was documented, current ones aren't as big.



That what I put after the "yes", but I got lazy and deleted it. Most transvestite pageants are drag; which is not the same to say the least. 



Iovan said:


> ^ lol 5 genders. I can't imagine someone saying that with a straight face.



If you look a few pagers before, I posted it was 5 and you can see it in detail as to why. Now this case has nothing to do with the other 3 genders, but it is good info in itself.


@Both: I can see both your points and can understand your feelings. Iovan doesn't want to lie to make someone else seem comfortable, and Bioness does not want people disrespected for their own personal choices in life. I think you both convey your points well.


----------



## Mael (Apr 2, 2012)

Genders within genders. 

Yeah that's not confusing.  In fact it's going to be dumb and likely ruffle feathers unintentionally with more PC bullshit.  Fuck...trans should be it and that's that.



> Please educate yourself



Lol high horse.  I'd rather not and stick to the simpler LGBT than this increasingly clusterfucking pansexuality stuff because it's basically a labyrinth of political correctness that I'll just give the proverbial finger to.


----------



## Iovan (Apr 2, 2012)

I really can't understand an argument that tries to legitimize more than two genders. There are only two genders. Anything else is just ridiculously dysfunctional. Even if you want to claim that a trans man->woman is a woman that's still within two genders. I will disagree with the conclusion but at least it's still working within reality (that there are only two genders in the human species). Trying to give some ridiculous distinction to each stage of a transsexual is just insane.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 2, 2012)

Well yes because transvestite means drag or cross dressing.

I was referring to a transsexual pageant which is the one that took place in 2006 and included mostly post op transgender females.

@ Mael it is no different than knowing the difference between Japanese and Chinese, it is something you should know so you don't offend a person. I mean yes usually a transgender person will politely correct a person, but if it continually happens with the same person it can get very annoying and shows that person just doesn't care.


----------



## Bishop (Apr 2, 2012)

Iovan said:


> I really can't understand an argument that tries to legitimize more than two genders. There are only two genders. Anything else is just ridiculously dysfunctional. Even if you want to claim that a trans man->woman is a woman that's still within two genders. I will disagree with the conclusion but at least it's still working within reality (that there are only two genders in the human species). Trying to give some ridiculous distinction to each stage of a transsexual is just insane.



There are not 5 genders for shits and giggles, but rather for chromosome count and medication. If you are female and take viagra guess what, you can die. So if someone comes in who is XXY (instead of XY, or XX), what would you do? This is why doctors make sure to document 5 genders (with the fifth being "other"). This is why there for more than one type of Zocor.  

In this case, the genders mean nothing since from a practical sense seeing as when the said person goes to the doctor this whole "She, He" business is out the window.

As for the last part of your post, I don't think that was for me....?


----------



## Iovan (Apr 2, 2012)

Why not just document that person as the most obvious gender or even being PC the one they "identify" with, but _with_ that _condition_.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 2, 2012)

Iovan said:


> So you will blatantly lie to make someone feel better. Cool?


What lie? There is no lie. What before me is the gender they were born as even if it's not the same body. If I walk into a store and a woman is a customer service rep, I don't care if they were born a male. *It doesn't matter to me, and it shouldn't matter to you.*





> Where does the views of other people fit into this discussion between you and I?


It just a ploy with your words. 




> I really don't mind if they think I'm an asshole. I think they are a sad person to be pitied.


I feel really bad for someone who is born a female but in a male body. I really can't fathom or understand that confusion or feelings. But there's a difference between respect and pity, and if you want people to treat you like an asshole, by all means.



> I don't hate the person and I won't go out of my way to insult them personally. That's just cruel in my eyes. However when discussing the issue as it is brought up I won't just lie.



Calling them a "he" when they are so obviously a "she" in every way that should matter to you is as insulting and cruel as it gets.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 2, 2012)

Iovan said:


> Why not just document that person as the most obvious gender or even being PC the one they "identify" with, but _with_ that _condition_.



Because that requires stereotyping and shit like picking the non dominate gender for a baby, lopping off their penis and later finding out they were mostly male.

Look up hermaphrodite infants, the parents literally play russian roulete with what "sex" they feel the baby "should" be. You need special treatments for those kind of conditions and it is best to not mess with it.


----------



## Bishop (Apr 2, 2012)

Iovan said:


> Why not just document that person as the most obvious gender or even being PC the one they "identify" with, but _with_ that _condition_.



Very good question: In order to answer that we must ask "what makes a gender a gender?" Answer: Chromosomes.

When the fetus is being developed, doctors look into it to see what chromosomes it has: If XX, you're cursed with a girl, if XY, you're blessed with a boy

But what if XXY? Well, it's both sexes, and when it comes time to treat it, if we lean over to one gender we could kill the child. This is why four genders have their own specifications; to insure that the person can be treated correctly (rather in surgery, medication, sexual treatment, etc). Now the fifth gender (which has a long ass name that really means "others") is called others, it is where all persons are grouped into one category because , scientifically, they can be; they are deformed, dysfunctional beings who lack the brains to be on par with society. Yes, I know, sounds cruel, but that is how life goes; most of these rare persons tend to live close to home with their parents or in a special person's home during free documentaries for PBS and the Discovery channel.

But in short, for medical reasons. Once again, this case has nothing to do with what we are talking about, just want to reiterate that.


----------



## AngstToThePeople (Apr 2, 2012)

AngstToThePeople said:


> Bishop, I always appreciate the quite respectful and rational way in which you argue, but I am afraid this is not strictly true. And I am referring to XX is being female, and XY being male.
> 
> Let us use a few examples. First of all, what of XY individuals with complete congenital Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS)? They are born with a XY genotype, but with otherwise all the physical and biological characteristics of a female human.
> 
> ...



I don't like quoting myself, but I think that, once again, people forget that XX=female and XY=male is not a rule that nature always chooses to follow. Sometime, nature just fucks with us.


----------



## Mikaveli (Apr 2, 2012)

AngstToThePeople said:


> Bishop, I always appreciate the quite respectful and rational way in which you argue, but I am afraid this is not strictly true. And I am referring to XX is being female, and XY being male.
> 
> Let us use a few examples. First of all, what of XY individuals with complete congenital Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS)? They are born with a XY genotype, but with otherwise all the physical and biological characteristics of a female human.
> 
> ...



Pseudo-scientific horseshit is what I call. You can't use some extreme condition that is no where near what anyone would consider common as justification for a man wanting to be a girl. You can't. That shit is intellectual dishonesty.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 2, 2012)

Is that nudity? lol b&


----------



## Mikaveli (Apr 2, 2012)

Yeah, let me edit that shit out


----------



## AngstToThePeople (Apr 2, 2012)

Hello, I was replying to something very specific, and I was just making a very specific point about XX=female XY=male not being strictly true in all cases. Nothing psaudo-scientific about that. Go read Bishop's point, then my reply.

I was not making any kind of point about what transgender people should or should not be allowed to do, or justifying anything. I think you drew very hasty conlcusions. I'm actually being quite neutral here.


----------



## Gecka (Apr 2, 2012)

If my baby comes out as a boy, he's going to forever remain "son" to me regardless of any cutting that he undergoes. That's just how I feel. They can identify with any common feminine roles and attributes (making sammiches, giving road head, etc), but for me it comes down to biology.


----------



## Ausorrin (Apr 2, 2012)

This person is a male and should therefore be described as him.

He violated the rules so he was disqualified.  Simple as that.


----------



## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> What lie? There is no lie. What before me is the gender they were born as even if it's not the same body. If I walk into a store and a woman is a customer service rep, I don't care if they were born a male. *It doesn't matter to me, and it shouldn't matter to you.*



Who said it did matter to me? The subject isn't just some random stranger who appears to be a woman but someone who clearly is identified as not being one. Really does this lack of sense surround all of your views?



> It just a ploy with your words.



Not sure what you mean.



> I feel really bad for someone who is born a female but in a male body. I really can't fathom or understand that confusion or feelings. But there's a difference between respect and pity, and if you want people to treat you like an asshole, by all means.




I don't believe the scenario you describe. That's a mental illness in my book and yeah I do pity the person. I know it's all PC to pretend there is some validity to someone's practice of pretending they are a different gender than they are, but it's just not the truth.



> Calling them a "he" when they are so obviously a "she" in every way that should matter to you is as insulting and cruel as it gets.



They are not a she. They are a he with a mutilated penis and a diet of female hormones. Anything else is make believe. His vagina is just a cleverly sculpted lump of flesh which is mostly made out of his former penis. If I'm an asshole for pointing out the truth like that well so be it.


----------



## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> Because that requires stereotyping and shit like picking the non dominate gender for a baby, lopping off their penis and later finding out they were mostly male.
> 
> Look up hermaphrodite infants, the parents literally play russian roulete with what "sex" they feel the baby "should" be. You need special treatments for those kind of conditions and it is best to not mess with it.



Extreme circumstances of hermaphrodites are an exception. Someone "feeling" they are the other sex trapped in their current body is a mental disorder that should be treated and not supported. Same as if someone feels they are an alien trapped in a human body or any other obvious imbalance of chemicals in the brain.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

It is being treated with hormones and surgery. And it isn't just some mental disorder, it comes down to what happened during the womb.

 was making a great point and you ignorant people just tossed it away. You are no different than the old men in congress wish it was still 1950.


----------



## Magic (Apr 3, 2012)

Super Goob said:


> Pseudo-scientific horseshit is what I call. You can't use some extreme condition that is no where near what anyone would consider common as justification for a man wanting to be a girl. You can't. That shit is intellectual dishonesty.


SHIT JUST GOT REAL

SHOUT OUT TO ALL MY BOSS BOYS 

WE ROWDY



Bioness said:


> It is being treated with hormones and surgery.  And it isn't just some mental disorder, it comes down to what happened  during the womb.
> 
> was making a great point and you ignorant people just tossed it away.  You are no different than the old men in congress wish it was still  1950.




It isn't common enough to be mainstream boy. 
Im not a part of your system. I won't buy what he is selling!


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

It doesn't matter if it is mainstream or not it is called having respect. Treat people the way they wish to be treated. You can tell she has gone through a lot of effort to be who she really is and people continuing to call her by male pronouns are basically saying they don't care about her or how she feels.

If people care enough they can check here and read some things people say to trans people, and while they may think it is innocent they are just being transphobic. It is managed by a homosexual male transsexual and mostly deals with what his mother says to him.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Just have the people that don't consider her a woman define what a woman is, and their arguments come crumbling down.

Angst to the people showed how using chromosomes is not always an effective way of defining genders, and even then, we have nothing in our biology that actually determines our attraction to an individual solely on chromosomes.


----------



## Magic (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> It doesn't matter if it is mainstream or not it is called having respect. *Treat people the way they wish to be treated. *You can tell she has gone through a lot of effort to be who she really is and people continuing to call her by male pronouns are basically saying they don't care about* her or how she feels.
> *
> If people care enough they can check here and read some things people say to trans people, and while they may think it is innocent they are just being transphobic. It is managed by a homosexual male transsexual and mostly deals with what his mother says to him.



I want everyone to give me money, not going to happen babe 

No one is obliged to care about one particular person's feelings or ability to be socially accepted.  

S/he looks somewhat attractive on the outside (the face isn'y my favorite) so ya. I'm going to sleep.


----------



## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> It is being treated with hormones and surgery. And it isn't just some mental disorder, it comes down to what happened during the womb.



Bullshit. Someone with male hormones who matured with them has a male brain. Hormones in the womb theory is used as an excuse for someone with a psychological disorder. Not a physical one. Hormones and surgery are cooperating with that disorder instead of treating it.



> was making a great point and you ignorant people just tossed it away. You are no different than the old men in congress wish it was still 1950.



Ridiculous slander.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Iovan said:


> Bullshit. Someone with male hormones who matured with them has a male brain. Hormones in the womb theory is used as an excuse for someone with a psychological disorder. Not a physical one. Hormones and surgery are cooperating with that disorder instead of treating it.



False, they may have male hormones but often theirs are lower which is a big sign, test also show they brains do in fact "act" more "feminine".


----------



## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> False, they may have male hormones but often theirs are lower which is a big sign, test also show they brains do in fact "act" more "feminine".



Treat their hormone deficiency and their resulting psychosis.


----------



## Spica (Apr 3, 2012)

> *Transgender beauty queen allowed to compete in Miss Universe Canada*
> 
> The Miss Universe Organization will allow Jenna Talackova to compete in the 2012 Miss Universe Canada pageant after all, provided that she meet the legal requirements for being a woman in Canada.
> The head of Miss Universe Canada kicked her out two weeks ago after discovering that she is transgender. The official said that Talackova had to have been born a female to participate.
> ...



Looking at this thread and all the haters:


----------



## Karsh (Apr 3, 2012)

Sometimes I make serious, well-thought-out LAPs in the caf? and then I sometimes think to myself: I'm writing all of this in this manner in a forum where everything you write is being pissed on in favour of flame baiting and hate speech against others and then after two days everything is forgotten, slowly trickling it's way towards earlier pages. Unless it's about "race", israel-palestine, religion, and gays.

And then I delete everything and go hang out with my friends instead. 

Anyway I'm glad she gets to compete. She's hardly any more fake than the rest of them honestly, so it's a fair playing field.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Iovan said:


> Treat their hormone deficiency and their resulting psychosis.



Why so they can be unhappy forever?


----------



## Ippy (Apr 3, 2012)

S/he _had _to have been very effeminate to begin with.

If I didn't already know s/he was born a man, I wouldn't have guessed.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Iovan said:


> Who said it did matter to me? The subject isn't just some random stranger who appears to be a woman but someone who clearly is identified as not being one. Really does this lack of sense surround all of your views?


I said it matters to you because your opinion on the matter completely changes because of a bit of information you normally shouldn't know.
[sp][/sp]
Why would you ever care if a girl was born as a boy? Why does it matter? You're not marrying them. You're not having sex with them. Oh, and btw, SRS is so good now that neo-vaginas can fool gynecologists. 
(Seriously Firefox, "neon-vaginas?" The fuck is that?)
Some males are born without testicles! Why should you care when they are your mailman? Some females are born with vaginas that are completely closed.  Why should you care when they are your supervisor? Some males get their foreskin removed so they don't masturbate. Why should you care when they are your Janitor? Some people are born without genitalia. Why should you care if they are your teacher? Some people are born with both genitalia. Why should you care if they are the President?
My point is: *It doesn't matter to you! So why do you care?
*



> I don't believe the scenario you describe. That's a mental illness in my book


We don't operate by "your book."


> and yeah I do pity the person. I know it's all PC to pretend there is some validity to someone's practice of pretending they are a different gender than they are, but it's just not the truth.


I'm not talking about PC, go have that conversation with someone else. And why the truth on that subject matters to you is currently blowing my mind. It doesn't affect you! Why do you care so much?



> They are not a she. They are a he with a mutilated penis and a diet of female hormones.


[sp][/sp]
A person born without legs isn't a human since they aren't bipedal. Even if they get robotic legs and walk around like everyone else, I'll never hide the truth from the world that they are not a human because they weren't born with legs.



> Anything else is make believe. His vagina is just a cleverly sculpted lump of flesh which is mostly made out of his former penis. If I'm an asshole for pointing out the truth like that well so be it.


[sp][/sp]
"His face is just a cleverly sculpted lump of flesh with is mostly made out of skin from other areas. If I'm an asshole for pointing out the truth like that well so be it."



Never google the word "Asshole."


----------



## Glued (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> A person born without legs isn't a human since they aren't bipedal. Even if they get robotic legs and walk around like everyone else, I'll never hide the truth from the world that they are not a human because they weren't born with legs.



Yeah, but the person with robot legs isn't entering the Olympics to run a marathon.

Why because, he doesn't have the legs to do it.

Also if the legs were super enhanced, then his speed has nothing to do with running ability, but the way some mechanic designed his legs to make him superhuman.

You know why people with steroids are banned from the olympics, because its an unnatural substance.

This person is the result of extreme cosmetic "enhancements." 

She/he is so "Enhanced" that for her to enter Miss Universe and possibly win would be tantamount to robbery.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> I said it matters to you because your opinion on the matter completely changes because of a bit of information you normally shouldn't know.
> [sp][/sp]
> Why would you ever care if a girl was born as a boy? Why does it matter? You're not marrying them. You're not having sex with them.



ALL of this can be turned right back at you. Why should it matter to you if someone wants to call someone who was born a male, a MALE regardless of how many operations they received?



> My point is: *It doesn't matter to you! So why do you care?
> *



Oh the irony in this statement



> We don't operate by "your book."



lol, who is we? The people who are calling other bigots for what they believe, even though these people tolerate it?


> A person born without legs isn't a human since they aren't bipedal. Even if they get robotic legs and walk around like everyone else, I'll never hide the truth from the world that they are not a human because they weren't born with legs.



If you want to go around and start claiming that people aren't humans because they can't walk, go on ahead. I see the point you are trying to make, but I don't think it is the same as someone who undergoes a surgery to "become a man/woman."


----------



## Motive (Apr 3, 2012)

I would never have guessed she was originally a man. It's amazing what modern medicine can do.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> ALL of this can be turned right back at you. Why should it matter to you if someone wants to call someone who was born a male, a MALE regardless of how many operations they received?


Why does it matter to me? Because that's the most offending thing you could say to someone like that, and since I'm not a douchebag, I don't go around pissing people off for enjoyment. So if 



> lol, who is we? The people who are calling other bigots for what they believe, even though these people tolerate it?


Um, the medical world doesn't use his definition of "mental illness."



> If you want to go around and start claiming that people aren't humans because they can't walk, go on ahead. I see the point you are trying to make, but I don't think it is the same as someone who undergoes a surgery to "become a man/woman."



Why does that matter to you?

Oh my god, this is almost as bad as the homothreads in that this is just going around in circles. 
*Provide a real legitimate reason why you should be in the know about someone's birth and why it matters to you, or kindly shut the fuck up about it.*


----------



## Glued (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> *Provide a real legitimate reason why you should be in the know about someone's birth and why it matters to you, or kindly shut the fuck up about it.*



Because if a transgendered man, who was born a male, were to enter a woman's boxing ring, he would automatically have an advantage over all the natural born female fighters.

Same ticket if a transgendered woman tried to enter the male circuit, she would get completely brutalized.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Why does it matter to me? Because that's the most offending thing you could say to someone like that



OH, lol

So it's not because "They truly are a female", you just think it's an "asshole move" on someone's part to not acknowledge someone as something they want to be/think they are, despite the fact they were born as it. 




> , and since I'm not a douchebag, I don't go around pissing people off for enjoyment. So if



If the people just feel inside that these people are human beings, and not deliberately going up to them and saying "Why did you get a sex change?" I don't see why it should bother you if people inside feel as though they are what they were born as. You can consider these people whatever "gender they choose to be". No one is taking that from you. 



> Um, the medical world doesn't use his definition of "mental illness."



What about someone who thought of themselves as an animal? Like a cow, or a reptile? Would someone be an asshole if they still referred to them as human beings?




> Why does that matter to you?
> 
> Oh my god, this is almost as bad as the homothreads in that this is just going around in circles.
> *Provide a real legitimate reason why you should be in the know about someone's birth and why it matters to you, or kindly shut the fuck up about it.*



wait, so what are you arguing? You think it's alright if someone who changed their gender to have sex with someone who doesn't know they had a sex change?

Throwing the "shut the fuck up" around isn't helping your case, it just shows that you get way too emotional over this topic and result to cursing if you can't get your point across to someone.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Because if a transgendered man, who was born a male, were to enter a woman's boxing ring, he would automatically have an advantage over all the natural born female fighters.
> 
> Same ticket if a transgendered woman tried to enter the male circuit, she would get completely brutalized.


Thank you for a legitimate reason. However, that's a very specific reason. To that end, in a non-athletic environment, why does it matter?



Flow said:


> So it's not because "They truly are a female", you just think it's an "asshole move" on someone's part to not acknowledge someone as something they want to be/think they are, despite the fact they were born as it.


It's both because they are truly a female and because it's an asshole move to not recognize that.



> If the people just feel inside that these people are human beings, and not deliberately going up to them and saying "Why did you get a sex change?" I don't see why it should bother you if people inside feel as though they are what they were born as. You can consider these people whatever "gender they choose to be". No one is taking that from you.


This really doesn't make much sense to me, but what I'm gathering from it is that you think most people just understand each other as humans and I shouldn't care what they think to themselves. And that's correct, and I agree. However, the topic is a woman being kicked out of a beauty contest because of how she looked when she was born.



> What about someone who thought of themselves as an animal? Like a cow, or a reptile? Would someone be an asshole if they still referred to them as human beings?


You could have made a Catboy joke here.  If a cat was born in the body of a human (which is not a catboy btw) and that person/animal/thing gave you no other to be rude to them, and you were preemptively insulting, that would make you the asshole.




> wait, so what are you arguing? You think it's alright if someone who changed their gender to have sex with someone who doesn't know they had a sex change?


I don't see the problem. If you just have sex with someone to just have sex, then you are only after their looks anyways. And if you find a woman sexually arousing, than that's all that should matter to you if you're just after sexual gratification.
And this is the problem right here. Because men were sexually attracted to a woman, only to find out later than that woman wasn't always a woman, and now their homophobic "I just got tricked' egos kick in hard core.

So they think they had sex or fondled themselves over a male, instead of thinking that it was a female who was born with male features.



> Throwing the "shut the fuck up" around isn't helping your case, it just shows that you get way too emotional over this topic and result to cursing if you can't get your point across to someone.


Instead of commenting on the statement, why don't you reply to it? Dodging the question shows that you're cornered.


----------



## Leon (Apr 3, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Because if a transgendered man, who was born a male, were to enter a woman's boxing ring, he would automatically have an advantage over all the natural born female fighters.
> 
> Same ticket if a transgendered woman tried to enter the male circuit, she would get completely brutalized.



Horrible reasoning. Boxing usually utilizes a weight class system. The reason men are physically stronger than women on average is because we are generally larger than them. Point is, for all purposes concerning this pageant, she is, and should be equally regarded as a female.


----------



## Jiggly Jilly (Apr 3, 2012)

That's disgusting, he was rightfully kicked out.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

I can see many people still like in the Dark Ages.


----------



## Glued (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Thank you for a legitimate reason. However, that's a very specific reason. To that end, in a non-athletic environment, why does it matter?



That is not her actual beauty. 



Leon said:


> Horrible reasoning. Boxing usually utilizes a weight class system. The reason men are physically stronger than women on average is because we are generally larger than them. Point is, for all purposes concerning this pageant, she is, and should be equally regarded as a female.



Perfect reasoning, you think the only difference is size. Even with the weight advantage, men still have harder chins, thicker necks, better coordination, superior upper body strength, longer reach, thicker bones, greater speed, larger hands. Even with the weight and height advantage, the world's best female kickboxer cannot defeat a regional fighter.

[YOUTUBE]g49oNJYiXKA[/YOUTUBE]

Lucia dominated women's boxing and kickboxing, but look what happens when she fights a complete nobody despite having height, reach and weight edge.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> That is not her actual beauty.



Umm, is there such a thing as fake beauty?  What are you talking about?


----------



## Glued (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Umm, is there such a thing as fake beauty?  What are you talking about?



She's been chopped up and cut up to the point where she now looks like a woman.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> She's been chopped up and cut up to the point where she now looks like a woman.



She was always a woman. And all those woman have been chopped and cut up so that they look the way they do.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 3, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> That is not her actual beauty.



That's only valid if they kick out anyone who gets plastic surgery.


----------



## Glued (Apr 3, 2012)

You know, you have a point. Every woman in that competition who gets plastic surgery should get thrown out.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Now that's a good idea.


----------



## Mexican God Lvl 3 (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> I said it matters to you because your opinion on the matter completely changes because of a bit of information you normally shouldn't know.
> [sp][/sp]
> Why would you ever care if a girl was born as a boy? Why does it matter? You're not marrying them. You're not having sex with them. Oh, and btw, SRS is so good now that neo-vaginas can fool gynecologists.
> (Seriously Firefox, "neon-vaginas?" The fuck is that?)
> ...


Why did u post a picture of the character Ginny o__o


----------



## Magic (Apr 3, 2012)




----------



## Leon (Apr 3, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> That is not her actual beauty.





> actual beauty.





> Beauty *pageant*.



Maybe you should look into all the enhancements people use in pageants. Not to mention surgery.





> Perfect reasoning, you think the only difference is size. Even with the weight advantage, men still have harder chins, thicker necks, better coordination, superior upper body strength, longer reach, thicker bones, greater speed, larger hands. Even with the weight and height advantage, the world's best female kickboxer cannot defeat a regional fighter.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]g49oNJYiXKA[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Lucia dominated women's boxing and kickboxing, but look what happens when she fights a complete nobody despite having height, reach and weight edge.



Like I said, point is, for all purposes concerning a pageant, she should be regarded as a female. Also, when a male undergoes hormone therapy, their bodies drastically alter as well. I also don't see why you bring up boxing as a reasoning to why everyone should know about a person's gender at birth.


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## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Because she's a girl.


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## Glued (Apr 3, 2012)

All those who have taken surgery to improve their beauty should be kicked out. Competition is now how good your surgeon is. If it gets to the point where even a man can be chopped up to the point where he can win a woman's competition, then that would mean anyone can win.



Leon said:


> Like I said, point is, for all purposes concerning a pageant, she should be regarded as a female. Also, when a male undergoes hormone therapy, their bodies drastically alter as well. I also don't see why you bring up boxing as a reasoning to why everyone should know about a person's gender at birth.




Drastically alter, does it alter their necks and chins, so that they don't get knocked as fast. Does it decrease their speed.


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## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

So toruxus thinks its an asshole move of someone wanted to be an animal, but you treated them like a human. Using this logic, those humans that are raised by wild wolfes on dogs shouldn't be taken out of the wild, or treated as humans. He also thinks its not an asshole move to have sex without telling them "hey, I got a sex change"


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm glad she got kicked out only real women should be allowed to particpate in these competitions.



Toroxus said:


> Because she's a girl.


It's not a girl it is a man with a mutilated dick. 

No amount of surgerys is going to change what gender you were born as.


----------



## Bishop (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> He also thinks its not an asshole move to have sex without telling them "hey, I got a sex change"



Is that true Toruxus?


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Wait why ask biones


----------



## Xyloxi (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> Wait why ask biones



He seems to know a lot about this, just how Mega knows a lot about military topics.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Asking someone who is "well educated" on a matter that really comes down to just something you should do. You shouldn't have sex with someone without telling them you went through a surgical procedure to "transform" your body into the sex that person is attracted to


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## Gunners (Apr 3, 2012)

If someone told me they had a sex change after the fact ( Not that it would happen) they are getting their throat sliced.


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## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> So toruxus thinks its an asshole move of someone wanted to be an animal, but you treated them like a human.


If someone treats me how I want to be treated, I'll treat them how they want to be treated. Obviously, you just want to treat others as you please.


> Using this logic, those humans that are raised by wild wolfes on dogs shouldn't be taken out of the wild, or treated as humans. He also thinks its not an asshole move to have sex without telling them "hey, I got a sex change"


Strawman.




Thdyingbreed said:


> I'm glad she got kicked out only real women should be allowed to particpate in these competitions.
> It's not a girl it is a man with a mutilated dick.
> No amount of surgerys is going to change what gender you were born as.






Bishop said:


> Is that true Toruxus?


Read my post instead of listening to a troll who twists my words and uses strawmans left and right.


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## Bishop (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Read my post instead of listening to a troll who twists my words and uses strawmans left and right.



Yeah I did, I figured it was a twist as I didn't comprehend that in your posts.


----------



## Mael (Apr 3, 2012)

Gunners said:


> If someone told me they had a sex change after the fact ( Not that it would happen) they are getting their throat sliced.



I feel bad for laughing but this was funny.


----------



## ♥Red♥ (Apr 3, 2012)

I think they should have not kicked him out ,since the majority wouldn't have noticed that she is actually a guy anyway.He has everything a natural woman has.


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## Xaosin (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> What about someone who thought of themselves as an animal? Like a cow, or a reptile? Would someone be an asshole if they still referred to them as human beings?



...

Do you not see the pure sexism, ignorance and bigotry rampant here in bringing up the 'well what if whoheshewhat thought they were animal' argument?

You're literally comparing female humans to animals.

The difference being that females aren't animals and are in fact humans who for all intents and purposes can still be constructive and contributing to society. 

If Animals were sapient,had different rights, and some sort of alteration were even possible, this might be a very very different argument.

I don't ever see much controversy around the fact that people actually try to change their race, or even their physical appearance at all. Only when it seems to come with a nice neat label does this sort of stigmatism occur.

But you and anyone who's ever used that argument are seemingly under the assumption that women are some sort of inferior species, making transwoman 'traitors' who lowered themselves and transmen 'fakes' who are attempting to be something above what they are.

The problem I assume comes when people's intolerant,often sexist perceptions and biases of what men and woman _are_ and _should be_ get muddled into the equation.

I'm sure things like boxing and beauty pageants are something of a different issue. But you know what? Fuck that. If someone is so shallow that they feel the need to change their body just for a pageant (or something as droll and barbaric as boxing), I don't care if they're kicked out for their 'dis/advantages.'

Transgenderism is a much more serious thing than merely what sort of roles it gives/implies.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

On a phone right now. Will respond later. Don't worry i got something for that ass(post).


----------



## hadou (Apr 3, 2012)

This guy, since he is a male, should not be competing in the competition. The event is clearly for females, not males that feel uncomfortable and have a "sex change".


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Wow, such an epic and fundamental misunderstanding of transsexuals in this thread. Clearly a bunch of people have no fucking clue what they are talking about.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 3, 2012)

Some of you guys are so emotional! Transgenderism is something most of us tolerate, but just because not all of us are gonna recognize the individual as anything other than the sex he was born as doesn't make us bigoted. Most aren't gonna go outta our way to make life hell for them, and persist in calling them their actual sex, when they, in their minds, are the opposite. Most of us, won't even personally interact with them, as the only relevance the process would have if the person were seeking an intimate partner. In which case, they should just be honest to the person they're trying to be with.


----------



## Kakashifan727 (Apr 3, 2012)

this is going nowhere. can a mod close the thread before it get worse? It cant get any better even with the points Bioness, Xao, and Tor have reiterated time and time again. Hater will be hatin'.


----------



## Leon (Apr 3, 2012)

Gunners said:


> If someone told me they had a sex change after the fact ( Not that it would happen) they are getting their throat sliced.



I love it when my suspicions concerning certain posters turn out to be completely true. Some of you are really transparent.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 3, 2012)

Leon said:


> I love it when my suspicions concerning certain posters turn out to be completely true. Some of you are really transparent.


It is not like I pretended to be anything else.  If I feel as though as man has raped me I will kill that man. Doesn't matter if he is a ''woman trapped in a man's body'' or that surgery can now make a man a woman. His deception vitiates my consent.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Xaosin said:


> ...



Yeah, trust me. I know. 



> Do you not see the pure sexism, ignorance and bigotry rampant here in bringing up the 'well what if whoheshewhat thought they were animal' argument?



I'm going to just...guess. The next statement is going to be filled with how much of a bigot/unhuman I am in the next statements right?




> You're literally comparing female humans to animals.



I gave an example. You're nit picking at something I said and intentionally taking it the wrong way in order to seem like "I crossed a line that I shouldn't even had thought of crossing."



> The difference being that females aren't animals and are in fact humans who for all intents and purposes can still be constructive and contributing to society.



What the hell? I would of said the same if it were a man. Not ONCE did I say that people who change their sex do not contribute to society. I guess I was right about you intentionally taking something the wrong way.



> If Animals were sapient,had different rights, and some sort of alteration were even possible, this might be a very very different argument.



I was giving an example. If someone wanted to be "part animal", using some of the logic presented in this thread, someone would be an ASSHOLE if they wanted to treat them like a human bein



> But you and anyone who's ever used that argument are seemingly under the assumption that women are some sort of inferior species, making transwoman 'traitors' who lowered themselves and transmen 'fakes' who are attempting to be something above what they are.



lol oh my god,

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

It seems to me that for some odd reason something in my post struck a nerve. You're intentionally slandering me, putting words and my mouth, making me out to seem like I think women are "inferior" or something- like just WHAT THE HELL

This is why. This is why so many people get sick and tired of this stuff. Not once did I say I would prance around on the streets supporting my views, labeling women/transgenders, telling them how they should live their lives. 

I said plenty of times in this thread what someone does with their body is none of my business. But to me, if someone was born a man, no matter how many times they beg, pray, get some surgery to mutilate their penis, they would always be a man to me. I'm not going to harass these people or treat them in any inhumane way though. 

But no, I'm a "bigot who thinks women are inferior" because I gave one example, and I don't think some man who mutilates his penis is a woman. just lol....oh my god.


----------



## Bishop (Apr 3, 2012)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Some of you guys are so emotional! Transgenderism is something most of us tolerate, but just because not all of us are gonna recognize the individual as anything other than the sex he was born as doesn't make us bigoted. Most aren't gonna go outta our way to make life hell for them, and persist in calling them their actual sex, when they, in their minds, are the opposite. Most of us, won't even personally interact with them, as the only relevance the process would have if the person were seeking an intimate partner. In which case, they should just be honest to the person they're trying to be with.



This is so true and relevant that I'm going to quote it again with bolded letter.



Seto Kaiba said:


> *Some of you guys are so emotional! Transgenderism is something most of us tolerate, but just because not all of us are gonna recognize the individual as anything other than the sex he was born as doesn't make us bigoted. Most aren't gonna go outta our way to make life hell for them, and persist in calling them their actual sex, when they, in their minds, are the opposite. Most of us, won't even personally interact with them, as the only relevance the process would have if the person were seeking an intimate partner. In which case, they should just be honest to the person they're trying to be with.*


/thread^10


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

It's just the same people who want to argue about the most petty things, and slander people for them referring to people as they were born.

What do they think most of these people do?

"Oh hey, yeah what's up MAN."

"Oh, yeah MAN, I'm just going to the store to get some beer. You know something MEN do. Hey MAN, do you want to go MAN?"

I don't see a reason to do that, or to get into an argument with a transgender. I doubt I would bring it up with them if I had to talk with them about anything.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

ITT: The NF Heterosexual Males use their societal priviledge to demean someone, and aren't consious of it.  Pretty similar to how whites used their priviledge toward minorities, and men used theirs to supress women.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

ITT:

You're a bigot if you don't  so as _think _that person who mutilated their penis and wants to be a woman is a woman.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> ITT:
> 
> You're a bigot if you don't  so as _think _that person who mutilated their penis and wants to be a woman is a woman.



What is a woman to you?


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> ITT:
> 
> You're a bigot if you don't  so as _think _that person who mutilated their penis and wants to be a woman is a woman.



No, but you're an ass when you don't treat people how they want to be when they treat you as you want to be treated.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Someone who was born as a woman, and doesn't have to get a sex change to mutilate their penis to become one.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Jesus Christ. I thought anti-circumcisionists threw around the word "mutilation" too much. But this thread takes the cake.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> No, but you're an ass when you don't treat people how they want to be when they treat you as you want to be treated.



So what you're saying is, treating them with dignity and respect isn't enough.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> Someone who was born as a woman, and doesn't have to get a sex change to mutilate their penis to become one.



What are the requirements to be born a woman?


----------



## Bishop (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> ITT: The NF Heterosexual Males use their societal priviledge to demean someone, and aren't consious of it.  Pretty similar to how whites used their priviledge toward minorities, and men used theirs to supress women.



I don't want to enter this argument by any means, but this may not be all true. Whites actually did demean blacks for racial issues, not because blacks wanted something artificial. Members who oppose your resolve are not bashing transsexuals, but merely stating that they will not lie to the other person  to make them feel good. Of course, these members wouldn't go out of their way to cause hell for the transsexuals, but merely stating that these individuals are, in fact, what they were born as, and no amount of surgery can change that (this is their philosophy).

I don't believe your intent is wrong as I can see your point clearly and can agree to certain parts. However, this certain post is not correct in terms of comparison nor in terms of the intent of the other-side.

Many times in this thread Bioness, AngstToThePeople, and I have posted documents of what makes up genders. A women is XX, no matter the looks.Rosey O'Donnel looks like a man, but she is a woman. There are extreme cases of XY (men) looking like women, this changes nothing. Also, this thread has little to do with what makes up a man or woman as it is proven and admitted by the pageant contestant that she was in fact born a male and is still (biologically) a male. However, this person is a woman now and in most cases can be treated as such.


----------



## hadou (Apr 3, 2012)

All of this conversation is ridiculous; the person was born a male, had hormone treatment among other things and looks, looks, like a female. The person is male, not female.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> What are the requirements to be born a woman?



Why are you dissecting nothing?


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Bishop said:


> I don't want to enter this argument by any means, but this may not be all true. Whites actually did demean blacks for racial issues, not because blacks wanted something artificial. Members who oppose your resolve are not bashing transsexuals, but merely stating that they will not lie to the other person  to make them feel good. Of course, these members wouldn't go out of their way to cause hell for the transsexuals, but merely stating that these individuals are, in fact, what they were born as, and no amount of surgery can change that (this is their philosophy).
> 
> I don't believe your intent is wrong as I can see your point clearly and can agree to certain parts. However, this certain post is not correct in terms of comparison nor in terms of the intent of the other-side.



It's funny how history repeats itself.  You know this is the exact same reasoning that has been used to degrade other minorities? People have said this to women when they wanted to enter the workforce ("Women can work, but we won't lie to them and say that they will be good at it), or when people wanted to get interacially married ("You can marry a person of another race, but we won't lie to them and say that their marriage is as valid as ours").

Besides, let me destroy your position in about 4-5 posts of exchanges.  What is a woman to you?


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

.....

No, it's not. You're just referring to them as a man. 

but if you weren't still on about that,

then yeah I would have to agree under the conditions I do not believe people who had to go through any operations should be involved in those sort of competitions, unless they have their own thing going on.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 3, 2012)

You're getting overemotional, Kue. You once called me a bigot because I wouldn't date gays or transsexuals, and it seems that you let personal emotions cloud logic once again.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> Why are you dissecting nothing?



Because for me to have the chance to change your mind, I need to know what you define as a woman.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Ok, let me explain it to you because you're obviously not getting it.

Someone who was BORN a male to me, will always be a male. REGARDLESS of what they do in order to achieve the body they desire.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You're getting overemotional, Kue.



Not at all.



> You once called me a bigot because I wouldn't date gays or transsexuals, and it seems that you let personal emotions cloud logic once again.



Gays? It shows you understood nothing I've said to you in that other thread.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> What is a woman to you?


Someone who wasn't born with a dick, and a woman can have babies.

Transgender people aren't woman no matter how much they wish they were they aren't. 

You can't change the gender you were born as and we don't have to acknowledge them as a woman if we don't believe they are.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> Ok, let me explain it to you because you're obviously not getting it.
> 
> Someone who was BORN a male to me, will always be a male. REGARDLESS of what they do in order to achieve the body they desire.



How about a baby that might be born as a hermaphrodite or deformed genitilia? A vast majority would get surgery after birth.  Would their gender be determined by what their parents chose?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> Not at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Gays? It shows you understood nothing I've said to you in that other thread.



Yes you are. All your responses are emotional arguments, when pretty much everyone has acknowledged they should be afforded their rights. To compare it to racial oppression in this case is idiotic, because people are discussing personal philosophy.

No, you made it pretty clear you thought I was a bigot because of my heterosexuality.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

You know, I really can't say. 

It doesn't change the fact that someone who was born as a male to me will always be a male.


----------



## Bishop (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> It's funny how history repeats itself.  You know this is the exact same reasoning that has been used to degrade other minorities? People have said this to women when they wanted to enter the workforce ("Women can work, but we won't lie to them and say that they will be good at it), or when people wanted to get interacially married ("You can marry a person of another race, but we won't lie to them and say that their marriage is as valid as ours").
> 
> Besides, let me destroy your position in about 4-5 posts of exchanges.  What is a woman to you?



I see you're very emotional on this issue. First off, you must understand that woman is not relative. You can read my last post when I edited it in. Or read Bioness' or just pick up a biological book as that is where we get it from.

Also, genetic makeup and pure sexism is not the same; one is literally altered and one simply wants equality. If you believe it is than we have an issue. Your comparisons are not equal; I believe you just want to be right rather than discuss things out. You say you want to destroy arguments rather than read and discuss. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing in the hopes that you will be right. 


I'll say it again, I see your points, and behind your attitude I can say you are completely right in that transsexuals deserve respect. I am an ex-Planned Parenthood rep who fought for this. I also agree that she should be called a she as past=/= present=/=future. But, I simply entered to say that your comparisons are not completely viable. I do believe that if entering a relationship the transsexual should inform the lover immediately though. What's your take on this and why?


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> You know, I really can't say.
> 
> It doesn't change the fact that someone who was born as a male to me will always be a male.



If you can't say then shut up.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Yes you are. All your responses are emotional arguments, when pretty much everyone has acknowledged they should be afforded their rights. To compare it to racial oppression in this case is idiotic, because people are discussing personal philosophy.
> 
> No, you made it pretty clear you thought I was a bigot because of my heterosexuality.



You know, you spoke so eloquently about how people misjudged minorities in the thread you created.  If you had only a eureka moment and realized how heterosexuals were pretty much done the same thing.

Besides, I highly doubt I made an emotional argument.  I probably got pissed, but I didn't make an emotional appeal.  Regardless, even if I did, this is a new thread now.  We can have a discussion, or you can keep talking about the past.  I didn't call you a bigot because you are a heterosexual, rather, because you have said things that were innappropiate.



Flow said:


> You know, I really can't say.
> 
> It doesn't change the fact that someone who was born as a male to me will always be a male.



So you are close minded then.  You can't answer a question, yet you decide to still hold on to your beliefs anyway.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

I like how people think people think people are born into behaviors, roles, and models based on their gender yet at the same time can't fathom being born into the wrong ones.


----------



## Bishop (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> I like how people think people think people are born into behaviors, roles, and models based on their gender yet at the same time can't fathom being born into the wrong ones.



And thus the "Nature VS Nurture" debate my friend.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> I like how people think people think people are born into behaviors, roles, and models based on their gender yet at the same time can't fathom being born into the wrong ones.


People can think they are born into the wrong gender all they want.

But you can't change the gender you were born as it's pretty simple no amount of surgery will change that. 

People don't have to acknowledge them as being as a woman if we don't view them as one.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Bishop said:


> And thus the "Nature VS Nurture" debate my friend.






Thdyingbreed said:


> People can think they are born into the wrong gender all they want.
> 
> But you can't change the gender you were born as it's pretty simple no amount of surgery will change that.
> 
> People don't have to acknowledge them as being as a woman if we don't view them as one.



Really?


Because last time I checked, a lot of people thought she was a woman because she IS a woman. *Why anyone cares about how you were born is pure racism and/or sexism.*


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> So you are close minded then.  You can't answer a question, yet you decide to still hold on to your beliefs anyway.



How am I close minded? Because I regard to a man as a man? Why does this aggravate you so much? I would have more of a right to get into this "emotional debate" like you're doing, but I won't. Despite the fact that people have slandered my post in here, despite that being said "you're close minded cause you don't think they are a woman even though they want to be one!"

It's you who and others (in this thread) that are mindlessly attacking people who have already stated they view these people as human beings not "IT'S"

EDIT:

it's as simple as saying

"I have an invisible dragon right here."

....

"no you do-"

"YES I DO! And if you DONT THEN YOU ARE JUST SO FUCKING CLOSE MINDED UGH SUCH AN ASSHOLE/HORRIBLE PERSON"


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> You know, you spoke so eloquently about how people misjudged minorities in the thread you created.  If you had only a eureka moment and realized how heterosexuals were pretty much done the same thing.
> 
> Besides, I highly doubt I made an emotional argument.  I probably got pissed, but I didn't make an emotional appeal.  Regardless, even if I did, this is a new thread now.  We can have a discussion, or you can keep talking about the past.  I didn't call you a bigot because you are a heterosexual, rather, because you have said things that were innappropiate.



I understand the issues surrounding LGBT individuals, and I do support their rights to be recognized, none of us are talking legislative enforcement of their oppression. We're discussing matters of personal philosophy.

I stated that I would not date a transsexual, because that is my personal preference, and in any scenario that one was not honest about being one, the relationship would be over because it was built on dishonesty. I made it plainly clear that I feel that they should be honest to the people they are trying to pursue about who they are and not assume their philosophical viewpoints are the same as theirs on this matter. This is not an objective issue, Kue. They are not objectively the sex they wish to identify as, but I WILL NOT (and most people won't) go out of their way to try and invalidate their right to identify themselves as whatever they wish. Yet you labeled me a bigot, and your mindset hasn't changed apparently. So it is relevant to this matter.



> Why anyone cares about how you were born is pure racism and/or sexism.



Toroxus, no. You like boys, and I'd think you'd be apprehensive over someone labeling you a sexist towards women because of that.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

It is close-minded and hateful because it is obvious to anyone with fucking common sense that she does not wish to be referred to as a man.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> It is close-minded and hateful because it is obvious to anyone with fucking common sense that she does not wish to be referred to as a man.



Said it better than I could.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> Because last time I checked, a lot of people thought she was a woman because she IS a woman. *Why anyone cares about how you were born is pure racism and/or sexism.*


That's because they didn't know that he was actually a man.

It's not racism or sexism the competetion was made for *woman not men* and thats why he was justly thrown out when they found out he wasn't an actual woman.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Bishop said:


> I see you're very emotional on this issue.



Ride Kaiba's wagon more please. 



> First off, you must understand that woman is not relative. You can read my last post when I edited it in. Or read Bioness' or just pick up a biological book as that is where we get it from.



I did read the entire thread, but if you edited it in then I have missed it.  Can you respond with what you said once more?



> Also, genetic makeup and pure sexism is not the same; one is literally altered and one simply wants equality. If you believe it is than we have an issue. Your comparisons are not equal; I believe you just want to be right rather than discuss things out. You say you want to destroy arguments rather than read and discuss. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing in the hopes that you will be right.



I'm willing to change my mind, but Bishop, your arguments earlier in this thread are as old as time itself.  I think this may be that you didn't articulate yourself properly, but did you mean in your first two sentences that the issue with transphobia has abosolutely no connections to sexism whatsoever?



> I'll say it again, I see your points, and behind your attitude I can say you are completely right in that transsexuals deserve respect. I am an ex-Planned Parenthood rep who fought for this. I also agree that she should be called a she as past=/= present=/=future. But, I simply entered to say that your comparisons are not completely viable. I do believe that if entering a relationship the transsexual should inform the lover immediately though. What's your take on this and why?



I agree with everything you said in this paragraph.  I do think transsexuals should disclose their sex change in a relationship not because of heterosexual priviledge (there are so many people that just walk around thinking that transsexuals should wear their sex change in their name tags), but I think it should be done because it is healthy for the relationship.  However, I don't honestly believe they should disclose it to people they are casually dating or just casually sleeping with, which is why Kaiba is quite aggresive towards me.  We don't force people to expose their criminal history, or how many STDs they have had, or how many partners they have had, but something as trivial as a sex change is more concerning than all the above, which is disturbing in this society.  So pretty much I agree with everything you said there, I just wanted to emphasize what I would think outside of a relationship.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Thdyingbreed said:


> That's because they didn't know that he was actually a man.


What part of, "That is a woman" do you not understand?


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Maybe in order to disregard certain situations like this the competition's rules should of said

"In order to compete, you must had been born a woman."


----------



## hadou (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> It is close-minded and hateful because it is obvious to anyone with fucking common sense that she does not wish to be referred to as a man.



Wrong; he wants to be referred to as a she, when in fact he is a HE


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> What part of, "That is a woman" do you not understand?


What part of not everyone considers her to be a woman do you not understand?

Not everyone has to consider her woman or will consider her one. Deal with it.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> What part of, "That is a woman" do you not understand?



.....

oh my god hahahaha

What part of "He was born a man, he is a man" do you not understand?

I don't see how it upsets you so much. It's not like he's saying they are freaks or something.


----------



## God Movement (Apr 3, 2012)

Ah fuck. Cosmetic surgeons are getting better and better at this. TOO MANY TRAPS


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Anyway I don't think most of us have actually answered the thread question.

I do feel she should not have lied on the forms she filled out, but I also feel rules like that should be done away with.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Apr 3, 2012)

I like to point this out. 

I find it funny how people judge naturally born women who get implants, botox and plastic surgery to try stay young as something un natural and giving the wrong sense of beauty.

But we here looking the other eye because this person went from male to female by the exact same means probably even more procedures involved.  

Okay the person can be born into the wrong sex I will give you that, but I want those of you too look at this point closely because if this person was born in any 3rd world country they would have to live the life of sex they were born to be.  

Also I know up here changing your sex / identity on your passport is next to impossible so , what does this person passport say exactly?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:
			
		

> However, I don't honestly believe they should disclose it to people they are casually dating or just casually sleeping with, which is why Kaiba is quite aggresive towards me. We don't force people to expose their criminal history, or how many STDs they have had, or how many partners they have said, but something as trivial as a sex change is more concerning than all the above, which is disturbing in this society.



Because it is matters of sexuality, they should be honest about it in any intimate situation. To not do so is dishonest, and is pretty selfish of them. Also, a person should definitely be honest about what STDs they may or may not have...that's actually something a person can be held criminally liable for in cases of viral infections.


----------



## baconbits (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> It is close-minded and hateful because it is obvious to anyone with fucking common sense that she does not wish to be referred to as a man.



Just because you want someone to call you "x" does not mean that not calling you "x" is automatically hateful, no matter what "x" is.

In this case male and female are pretty well defined.  Someone may want to be seen as one or the other but what they were originally born as, their chromosome pairs, essentially makes them male or female despite their wishes, just as my melanin content makes me black.  I may not want to be black because of the societal abuse I may receive, but calling me black is not hateful.

Hateful implies ill intent.  If we intend ill by describing someone, for example calling someone fat, then I can understand your claim.  But when we simply intend accuracy you should not claim we are being hateful.  You should simply contest the accuracy of our description.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

hadou said:


> Wrong; he wants to be referred to as a she, when in fact he is a HE



What part of, "She is a woman" do you not understand?



Thdyingbreed said:


> What part of not everyone considers her to be a woman do you not understand?
> Not everyone has to consider her woman or will consider her one. Deal with it.



The part where those people are surprised other people think they are assholes.



Flow said:


> What part of "He was born a man, he is a man" do you not understand?


The part where she was born a SHE in a he's body.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

hadou said:


> Derp





Thdyingbreed said:


> Herp





Flow said:


> Squeeeeeee



Hello bigot brigade.



Goo Goo Monster said:


> Ah fuck. Cosmetic surgeons are getting better and better at this. TOO MANY TRAPS



She is not a trap you transphobe.


----------



## God Movement (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> She is not a trap you transphobe.



Shut up      .


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I understand the issues surrounding LGBT individuals, and I do support their rights to be recognized, none of us are talking legislative enforcement of their oppression. We're discussing matters of personal philosophy.
> 
> I stated that I would not date a transsexual, because that is my personal preference, and in any scenario that one was not honest about being one, the relationship would be over because it was built on dishonesty. I made it plainly clear that I feel that they should be honest to the people they are trying to pursue about who they are and not assume their philosophical viewpoints are the same as theirs on this matter. This is not an objective issue, Kue. They are not objectively the sex they wish to identify as, but I WILL NOT (and most people won't) go out of their way to try and invalidate their right to identify themselves as whatever they wish. Yet you labeled me a bigot, and your mindset hasn't changed apparently. So it is relevant to this matter.



I reread the thread we had that discussion months ago, and I think it was mostly my fault for not articulating myself properly.  I meant to say that transsexuals should disclose themselves in the relationship not because of heterosexual priviledge, but because it is what is healthy for the relationship.  I however, don't think it should be disclosed if you are just casually dating or casually sleeping with each other.  Like I said to Bishop, there's more important things people should be concerned about like criminal records, STDs, if they cheat, etc, yet there are people out there that think that something as trivial as having a sex change is a better reason to break up with someone than all of the above, which is something that is disturbing (at least to me).  If I was a heterosexual male that knew as much as I do now, I would still stay with a transsexual woman as long as they had the full surgery and I was capable of being physically attracted to them.  Anyone that would judge me would never have been a true friend in the first place.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Goo Goo Monster said:


> Shut up      .



What kind of response was that?
"You're point is wrong."
"shut up."

That's ignorance right there.


----------



## Magic (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> ITT: The NF Heterosexual Males use their societal priviledge to demean someone, and aren't consious of it.  Pretty similar to how whites used their priviledge toward minorities, and men used theirs to supress women.



Don't make me supress you with hugs and kisses. 
p.s sex change is not trivial, its not like being goth or a hipster.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Apr 3, 2012)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Because it is matters of sexuality, they should be honest about it in any intimate situation. To not do so is dishonest, and is pretty selfish of them. Also, a person should definitely be honest about what STDs they may or may not have...that's actually something a person can be held criminally liable for in cases of viral infections.


I agree 100% especially in a dating situation that should be something they should have to disclose beforehand.

A lot of people don't want to find out that what they thought was a woman is actually a man. 

It's common courtesey and I'd want to be told before hand if it was me if it wasn't actually a real woman.



Bioness said:


> Hello bigot brigade.
> 
> 
> 
> She is not a trap you transphobe.


So because we don't consider her to be a woman were bigots? 

Guess what people don't have to consider her a woman if we don't believe she is one.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

RemChu said:


> Don't make me supress you with hugs and kisses.



Done deal.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> I reread the thread we had that discussion months ago, and I think it was mostly my fault for not articulating myself properly.  I meant to say that transsexuals should disclose themselves in the relationship not because of heterosexual priviledge, but because it is what is healthy for the relationship.  I however, don't think it should be disclosed if you are just casually dating or casually sleeping with each other.  Like I said to Bishop, there's more important things people should be concerned about like criminal records, STDs, if they cheat, etc, yet there are people out there that think that something as trivial as having a sex change is a better reason to break up with someone than all of the above, which is something that is disturbing (at least to me).  If I was a heterosexual male that knew as much as I do now, I would still stay with a transsexual woman as long as they had the full surgery and I was capable of being physically attracted to them.  Anyone that would judge me would never have been a true friend in the first place.



That is lying which is why breaking up is justified, something like that is need to know and you cant go saying you love the person if you keeping things from him/her just because your afraid of the outcome.

It is up to the person who the transexual is dating to make the choice not the transexual to allow him/her to continue blindly date.

What happens when you get married and they want to have kids and the guy cant figure out why pregancy isnt happening? You think breaking to him then will be easier than when its dating.

Note: before anyone becomes a wet blanket I am saying honesty here is a best policy to dating if you care for the individual.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

RemChu said:


> Don't make me supress you with hugs and kisses.
> p.s sex change is not trivial, its not like being goth or a hipster.



I would say the process is not trivial, but out of all the things your potential date can be, I think what the person was born as should be one of the last things you should care about.

You never know, the person could be a psychopathic killer.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Thdyingbreed said:


> I agree 100% especially in a dating situation that should be something they should have to disclose.
> 
> A lot of people don't want to find out that what they thought was a woman is actually a man.


Omg. This is like dealing with a 12 year old. *If you couldn't tell the difference then it shouldn't matter.* If She is a she so much that you don't even know that she was once in the body of a male, then why should it matter all of a sudden? 



> It's common courtesey and I'd want to be told before hand if it was me if it wasn't actually a real woman.
> 
> So because we don't consider her to be a woman were bigots? Guess what people don't have to consider her a woman if we don't believe she is one.



Guess what, people don't have to show you courtesy when you don't show them any.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Thdyingbreed said:


> I agree 100% especially in a dating situation that should be something they should have to disclose beforehand.
> 
> A lot of people don't want to find out that what they thought was a woman is actually a man.
> 
> ...



If a transsexual doesn't disclose their born gender to who they were dating then they would be in the wrong correct, the other person has a right to know.

And yes you are a bigot, people used the word "^ (use bro)" to describe those they didn't consider to be equal humans, what you are doing is no different.


----------



## Kakashifan727 (Apr 3, 2012)

she has tits and a vag; looks like a women to me. So she must be a woman.  

I gotta say, why do ppl find it odd to date transexuals? I don't think it would bother me...I mean, their no longer gender x, their y now. Not like...not like...it does not bother me and i dont get why it bothers most of the ppl in this thread. Then again, the posts I'm seeing are boarding on  and :Facepalm when it comes to rebuttals of clearly defined and explained points*That has been repeated ad naseum. *

Seriously, can a mod/admin lock the thread? this is getting crazy and nowhere at the same time.


----------



## God Movement (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> *If a transsexual doesn't disclose their born gender to who they were dating then they would be in the wrong correct*, the other person has a right to know.



And that's the issue here isn't it? Some don't. So really, calling someone a transphobe for being wary of that fact kinda makes you look a little silly now. Doesn't it?


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Omg. This is like dealing with a 12 year old. *If you couldn't tell the difference then it shouldn't matter.* If She is a she so much that you don't even know that she was once in the body of a male, then why should it matter all of a sudden?
> 
> Guess what, people don't have to show you courtesy when you don't show them any.


It does matter like what if the person wants to have kids of there own or personally belives that is wrong and you should accept what your born as.

If you are a transgender you should inform people beforehand, so they know what there getting into as it is a big deal to a lot of people.

Saves everyone from wasting there time if they find out beforehand.



Bioness said:


> And yes you are a bigot, people used the word "^ (use bro)" to describe those they didn't consider to be equal humans, what you are doing is no different.


There's a huge difference I don't consider them to be lesser or anything. 

I just don't consider them to be a woman if there born a man.


----------



## Magic (Apr 3, 2012)

I think thee MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IS.

can her tittays squirt milk?

be true to yourself, because you only live once.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 3, 2012)

I think they shouldn't disclose it, if they're done with it.
If there's no meat and kibles down there, then fuck it, I don't wanna know


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

I don't disclose the hospital I was born in unless asked, which is just as relevant as the gender this woman was born as.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

That isn't the issue here, it is part of their personal history, that would be like wanting to know if they had a child, it is something that will come up in the future. You should however still respect them as a individual and treat them how they want to be treated, if they say they are a woman then be respectful and treat them as such.


----------



## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Huey Freeman said:


> That is lying which is why breaking up is justified, something like that is need to know and you cant go saying you love the person if you keeping things from him/her just because your afraid of the outcome.
> 
> It is up to the person who the transexual is dating to make the choice not the transexual to allow him/her to continue blindly date.
> 
> What happens when you get married and they want to have kids and the guy cant figure out why pregancy isnt happening? You think breaking to him then will be easier than when its dating.



This is the third time I'll be saying this now (lol), but I do think that transsexuals should disclose their sex change when they enter in a relationship not because of heterosexual priviledge, but rather because it is healthy for the relationship.

In the dating phase of relationships, most of the time people will be trying to know each other.  Is it really fair that the straight person can hide whatever they want, but the transsexual has a societal pressure to come out if he/she may never see that person again? I hope you see that there is something wrong with that.



> Note: before anyone becomes a wet blanket I am saying honesty here is a best policy to dating if you care for the individual.



Of course, I would give that advice to any transsexual friend that asks me (they can get potentially killed after all), but it isn't the way things should be.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus I feel that is where we differ. I feel those who are trans should disclose to who they are dating if things are going to get serious.

I would have absolutely no problem dating a transgender male even if he were pre-op, but I still would like to be in the know.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Thdyingbreed said:


> It does matter like what if the person wants to have kids of there own or personally belives that is wrong and you should accept what your born as.


No one is talking about reproduction, and if you want to be so superficial about how someone was born, have fun being lonely or with another shallow person.



> If you are a transgender you should inform people beforehand, so they know what there getting into as it is a big deal to a lot of people.
> 
> Saves everyone from wasting there time if they find out beforehand.


What the fuck are "they getting into?"  This is so offensive and shockingly fucked up that I'm stunned. No wonder you just don't get the issue. You think other people are just as shallow and superficial as you.
"I love you, I want to spend the rest of my life with you as a companion"
"I was born as a different gender."
"Fuck off."

I guess transgender people should just have to wear signs so other people always know what gender they WERE born as, not what gender they currently are. Talk about reducing humans to binary.


----------



## God Movement (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> That isn't the issue here, it is part of their personal history, that would be like wanting to know if they had a child, it is something that will come up in the future. You should however still respect them as a individual and treat them how they want to be treated, if they say they are a woman then be respectful and treat them as such.



If that isn't THE issue here, it's still AN issue. It's an important part of their personal history that will greatly affect whoever they interact with from a sexual point of view. It's one thing to respect them as a person, which you should do, because it's only right. It's another thing completely to respect them as a woman, when they don't really classify as such from your point of view. I classify a woman as someone who is born with two X chromosomes. I'm sure plenty of straight men share the same view.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

@Bio:
In a true loving relationship, it shouldn't matter to you if you found out your partner was born differently from you. Or I guess the same in a heterosexual relationship. Because love isn't about something as superficial, insignificant, and stupid like how you were born.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Goo Goo Monster said:


> If that isn't THE issue here, it's still AN issue. It's an important part of their personal history that will greatly affect whoever they interact with from a sexual point of view. It's one thing to respect them as a person, which you should do, because it's only right. It's another thing completely to respect them as a woman, when they don't really classify as such from your point of view. I classify a woman as someone who is born with two X chromosomes. I'm sure plenty of straight men share the same view.



Because you have a chromosome testing kit on you always. And you are aware there are not just two gendered, officially there are 5. Plus what would you consider someone with XXY.


----------



## Bishop (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> If a transsexual doesn't disclose their born gender to who they were dating then they would be in the wrong correct, the other person has a right to know.



I agree, as does American law (in many states). As a PP rep we know that if the person (mostly men) finds out after time (like 5 or 6 months) of being in a relationship that his girl was at first a make, the suicide rate of the guy goes up by 12% yet the depression rate goes up by 88% (I'll find the articles in a few hours, in lazy mode now ). Not the same with women though.

I was going to post some other stuff, but I'll hold off as I want to remain equivocal rather than take one side.



			
				Toroxus said:
			
		

> @Bio:
> In a true loving relationship, it shouldn't matter to you if you found out your partner was born differently from you. Or I guess the same in a heterosexual relationship. Because love isn't about something as superficial, insignificant, and stupid like how you were born.


I agree. That's why you should let them know first. Otherwise you are deceptive and trivialities are relative; might be small to you but huge to him or her.


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## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> @Bio:
> In a true loving relationship, it shouldn't matter to you if you found out your partner was born differently from you. Or I guess the same in a heterosexual relationship. Because love isn't about something as superficial, insignificant, and stupid like how you were born.



But to love you need to know about your partner, and you are right if you truly care for someone what their past is shouldn't matter. But what if medical complications arise or if you want children, these are factors you must consider.


Banhammer said:


> Not the rabble spiel again yvey


If you are referring to what I think you are referring to, then stop.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> No one is talking about reproduction, and if you want to be so superficial about how someone was born, have fun being lonely or with another shallow person.


I'm saying thats an issue to a lot of people who would want to have kids of there own so it does have merit here.

I and many other people would have an issue if someone isn't an actual woman and they are lying about it.

I wouldn't want to be involved in a relationship with those kind of people and thats my choice.



Toroxus said:


> What the fuck are "they getting into?"  This is so offensive and shockingly fucked up that I'm stunned. No wonder you just don't get the issue. You think other people are just as shallow and superficial as you.
> "I love you, I want to spend the rest of my life with you as a companion"
> "I was born as a different gender."
> "Fuck off.".


I do get the issue, I'm not being shallow I and many other people wouldn't want to be dating someone who isn't actually a woman for reasons I've stated earlier.

Thats why I suggested that transgender people should inform them beforehand so situations like that don't occur.

It's a big issue for a lot of people and if you can't understand that then this pointless. Them telling them beforehand is not a big deal as your making it out too be.



Toroxus said:


> I guess transgender people should just have to wear signs so other people always know what gender they WERE born as, not what gender they currently are. Talk about reducing humans to binary.


No, but in a situation where there going to be dating someone the other person has a right to know they actually are a real woman.


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## Huey Freeman (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> This is the third time I'll be saying this now (lol), but I do think that transsexuals should disclose their sex change when they enter in a relationship not because of heterosexual priviledge, but rather because it is healthy for the relationship.
> 
> In the dating phase of relationships, most of the time people will be trying to know each other.  Is it really fair that the straight person can hide whatever they want, but the transsexual has a societal pressure to come out if he/she may never see that person again? I hope you see that there is something wrong with that.
> 
> ...



This is more of a test to the person your with than anything else , your looking at it as a way to live in a bubble as transexuals dont be judge  . I am looking at it as you knowing who you are with.

If you give out your information and he/she leaves then so be it that wasnt the person for you but if he/she stays then you know the person is there for you.

I didnt agree or accept Hetero can hide things nope when I said honesty is the best policy , I expected it works on both ends. Speaking as one, I expect anything of value my girl has to say she should, remember like this article things come back to bite you in the ass .

There will always be controversy in being a minority it is how you deal with it that makes you a better person, I normally would never suggest someone to hide it and be afraid of being judge unless they are in some ass backward country where you can get killed on the spot for it.


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## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Bishop said:


> I agree, as does American law (in many states). As a PP rep we know that if the person (mostly men) finds out after time (like 5 or 6 months) of being in a relationship that his girl was at first a make, the suicide rate of the guy goes up by 12% yet the depression rate goes up by 88% (I'll find the articles in a few hours, in lazy mode now ). Not the same with women though.


Yet again, the problem is the (usually) male not being able to comprehend simplistic logic: This was once a boy, but is now a female.



Bioness said:


> But to love you need to know about your partner, and you are right if you truly care for someone what their past is shouldn't matter. But what if medical complications arise or if you want children, these are factors you must consider.



Naturally.


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## Kakashifan727 (Apr 3, 2012)

some dudes are assholes; i mean have you seen have the threads in the BH? What is the rate of suicide and depression for women who have found that their partner is a dif gender? Not as high as is it for men  I bet.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

*ACTUAL NEWS UPDATE!!!*




> *Miss Universe organization – statement regarding Jenna Talackova*
> 
> 
> ​ *NEW YORK, APRIL 2, 2012:* _“The  Miss Universe Organization will allow Jenna Talackova to compete in the  2012 Miss Universe Canada pageant provided she meets the legal gender  recognition requirements of Canada, and the standards established by  other international competitions”._
> ...



This is fantastic news!


----------



## Huey Freeman (Apr 3, 2012)

^^^that because you go for the bad guys instead of the ones that matters


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## Seto Kaiba (Apr 3, 2012)

Itachifan727 said:


> some dudes are assholes; i mean have you seen have the threads in the BH? What is the rate of suicide and depression for women who have found that their partner is a dif gender? Not as high as is it for men  I bet.



Not high at all considering they often kill the other person.


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## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Huey Freeman said:


> This is more of a test to the person your with than anything else , your looking at it as a way to live in a bubble as transexuals dont be judge  . I am looking at it as you knowing who you are with.
> 
> If you give out your information and he/she leaves then so be it that wasnt the person for you but if he/she stays then you know the person is there for you.
> 
> ...



I guess there doesn't seem much to argue about then.


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> I know people will give a dirty look for this, and we are going to go off topic here, but am I honestly the only gay person that found Shima Tesou and other similar trolls actually funny? I mean, I think the GLBT people in NF just take things too seriously sometimes.  At least Shima showed his gay hatred tastefully rather than the other people in this forum.







Bioness said:


> *ACTUAL NEWS UPDATE!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Progress!


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Progress!



Of course, it is Canada, what did you think it was the United States?


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## Bishop (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Yet again, the problem is the (usually) male not being able to comprehend simplistic logic: This was once a boy, but is now a female.



Exactly, which means no love and no relationship. If you keep it from him you are deceptive and he doesn't know the full truth (which every study shows he will find out within 13 months) and can cause big problems for him psychologically and mentally.

I think you should just let them know up front: "I was born a man but I'm not. If you're mature enough to get past that and can see what I really am, than we can move forward." I know two transsexuals who are players and are fully honest before they even get the guy in the bed. One's married now to a guy who was a against it and now is happy with two adopted kids. But had she of lied....


----------



## Toroxus (Apr 3, 2012)

You know, Bishop. What you just said made me think: That's a fantastic way to screen assholes from your life that are just going to waste your time.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> Of course, it is Canada, what did you think it was the United States?



I always enjoy you guys perception of us Canadians, makes the shock of our faults even more enjoyable.


----------



## Leon (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> Progress!



Progress is to bigots as light is to vampires. This pleases me.


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## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> The part where she was born a SHE in a he's body.



Oh, so I didn't miss the part where he was born with male genitals. ok.


----------



## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Apr 3, 2012)

Kue said:


> I know people will give a dirty look for this, and we are going to go off topic here, but am I honestly the only gay person that found Shima Tesou and other similar trolls actually funny? I mean, I think the GLBT people in NF just take things too seriously sometimes.  At least Shima showed his gay hatred tastefully rather than the other people in this forum.



Personally, I think it's understandable why the GLBT would not dislike any homophobics on NF, due to the fact they most likely have received abuse from other homophobics in their lifetime due to their sexual orientation.


----------



## Mikaveli (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> No, but you're an ass when you don't treat people how they want to be when they treat you as you want to be treated.



I'm a dinosaur, treat me like one.

I'm royalty, treat me as such. Kiss my feet, tell me how awesome I am, and cut my toe nails. If you don't you're obviously an asshole.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

^ That's not comparable!


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## Kue (Apr 3, 2012)

Spartan1337 said:


> Personally, I think it's understandable why the GLBT would not dislike any homophobics on NF, due to the fact they most likely have received abuse from other homophobics in their lifetime due to their sexual orientation.



I have experienced it myself (trust me, I had gone through pretty much everything) and I once upon a time was like the people you describe.  Who knows, it might just be a self-mechanism to not feel offended or hurt anymore, or it could be that I just learned how to pick my battles.


----------



## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Yeah, there was some joking in his statement, but I don't see how he doesn't actually have a point.


----------



## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Toroxus said:


> I said it matters to you because your opinion on the matter completely changes because of a bit of information you normally shouldn't know.



When talking about a STRANGER who you would know nothing about of course it wouldn't matter, but when DISCUSSING someone who is KNOWN. Look a mutilated penis isn't a vagina no matter how closely it looks like it. That's just the truth.



> [sp][/sp]
> Why would you ever care if a girl was born as a boy?



This is impossible. The boy was born a boy and then had cosmetic surgery to appear like a girl. Why do you care if I care?



> Why does it matter? You're not marrying them. You're not having sex with them. Oh, and btw, SRS is so good now that neo-vaginas can fool gynecologists.



At first glance maybe. However it's still merely camouflage. Why does protecting the identity of an imitation matter so much to you?



> (Seriously Firefox, "neon-vaginas?" The fuck is that?)
> Some males are born without testicles! Why should you care when they are your mailman? Some females are born with vaginas that are completely closed.  Why should you care when they are your supervisor? Some males get their foreskin removed so they don't masturbate. Why should you care when they are your Janitor? Some people are born without genitalia. Why should you care if they are your teacher? Some people are born with both genitalia. Why should you care if they are the President?
> My point is: *It doesn't matter to you! So why do you care?
> *



I think you have missed the point. I don't care to stop these people and I don't care to discriminate against them. Seriously do you have any damn clue about CONTEXT? The discussion is talking about a specific person and also moved on to specifics like whether that person is male or female. Sorry that person is a male with mutilated genitalia. It's that simple and no amount of your sidetracking is going to change the issue.



> We don't operate by "your book."



Okay?



> I'm not talking about PC, go have that conversation with someone else. And why the truth on that subject matters to you is currently blowing my mind. It doesn't affect you! Why do you care so much?



Why do you care about me supposedly caring? My posts don't affect you. Right?



> [sp][/sp]
> A person born without legs isn't a human since they aren't bipedal. Even if they get robotic legs and walk around like everyone else, I'll never hide the truth from the world that they are not a human because they weren't born with legs.



No that's ridiculous. They are human because they are part of the human species. Legs don't make a person human (let alone bipedal legs). This is a rather failed attempt by you to drag my point to the realm of absurdity. Your point would be valid if you took a dog and surgically manipulated it's flesh to appear to be human. It would still be a dog while grotesquely appearing to be human.



> [sp][/sp]
> "His face is just a cleverly sculpted lump of flesh with is mostly made out of skin from other areas. If I'm an asshole for pointing out the truth like that well so be it."



Once again you have missed the point.



> Never google the word "Asshole."



Nice picture. Are you sure I'm an asshole though instead of you being an overly sensitive "alternative life-style" supporter?


----------



## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> Why so they can be unhappy forever?



Usually when you treat someone and work toward curing their psychological problems they become happier. They become productive. They become who they are supposed to be and not what their psychosis pretends they are. I can see by the club you lead that you don't care. If it visibly pleases them now then you support it.


----------



## Skywalker (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> Of course, it is Canada, what did you think it was the United States?


I hate my country.


----------



## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Iovan said:


> Usually when you treat someone and work toward curing their psychological problems they become happier. They become productive. They become who they are supposed to be and not what their psychosis pretends they are. I can see by the club you lead that you don't care. If it visibly pleases them now then you support it.



They don't have a psychological problem what don't you get about that, transsexuals are just as productive as cissexuals. There is no pretending going on and that is one of the most fucking degrading things you can say to a person. You don't know what is going on in their minds and psychologist have long since stated that transsexualism is not something that needs to be treated but supported to its fullest.


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## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> They don't have a psychological problem what don't you get about that, transsexuals are just as productive as cissexuals.



They believe they are the gender they are not. That is a psychological problem.



> There is no pretending going on and that is one of the most fucking degrading things you can say to a person.



Pretending that their superficial operations have made them the opposite gender.



> You don't know what is going on in their minds and psychologist have long since stated that transsexualism is not something that needs to be treated but supported to its fullest.



Of course psychologists have said that in the current politically correct world we live in where saying anything (truthful or otherwise) that special groups X Y and Z might find offensive gets you labeled a biggot. Political correctness itself is toxic to the truth.


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## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Iovan said:


> Pretending that their superficial operations have made them the opposite gender.
> .



They are aware that it doesn't completely make them the opposite gender but it still makes them more comfortable and happier than continuing to stay in a body that they cannot relate to.


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## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> They are aware that it doesn't completely make them the opposite gender but it still makes them more comfortable and happier than continuing to stay in a body that they cannot relate to.



...because they have a psychological problem that went untreated.


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## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Because there is no treatment! And there doesn't need to be! The best treatment out there is hormones and surgery to fix what went wrong in the womb.


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## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> Because there is no treatment!



Pretty sure thinking you're the wrong gender can be treated just like thinking you're Napoleon.



> And there doesn't need to be! The best treatment out there is hormones and surgery to fix what went wrong in the womb.



Why are you an enabler of such a bad psychological problem? Have you no empathy for the person you want to live a lie? Why do you let your own personal bias lead them to horribly mutilating their bodies?


----------



## Xaosin (Apr 3, 2012)

Iovan said:


> ...because they have a psychological problem that went untreated.



No. It's a physiological one you dumparse. That's like saying someone with Parkinson's disease just needs to be treated with plenty of therapy.




Flow said:


> I said plenty of times in this thread what someone does with their body is none of my business. But to me, if someone was born a man, no matter how many times they beg, pray, get some surgery to mutilate their penis, they would always be a man to me. I'm not going to harass these people or treat them in any inhumane way though.



Alright, I'm sorry for over-reacting a little seeing as the 'if-people-can-be-woman-why-not-dogs?' argument isn't the crux of what you're saying, but I just think it's idiotic that people occasionally say things like that without thinking of what they're implying.

But anyway, I think the reason and a lot of the others debating in here (Bio,Tor) are getting so wound up is because this obviously ISN'T merely an argument of Semantics. It's frustrating enough people can't stop alliterating how they won't acknowledge transpeople as the gender.

To those who are saying they'd never call/acknowledge a transperson the gender they're born with, fine. But would you give them the treatment/respect they deserve? (In manners not relating to sexuality since that seems to be a heated topic here)

If one sees themselves as truly a woman, they should for all intents and purposes be 'treated' as a woman, and same for someone who wants to be a men.

But like I said earlier, it's a much bigger issue that merely roles and responsibilities. It's more about how society views these sorts of things as a whole. No one should have to 'see someone' as merely their gender construct anyway, which is why it's a problem with the whole system.

And also why I said it's completely shallow, wrong and insincere to change your body just because you want to 'fit in' with the gender role you were born with, rather than challenge society and impose yourself onto it anyway. But that's your choice and not mine.

Transgenderism isn't merely something that should be based on 'feelings' alone, and hasn't been for decades. We've done for ages that one's mental gender is decided not only after birth but from a variety of genetic and environmental factors, but once paved cannot be changed regardless of biology. It's been solid and well established.

However the problem I have with calling a transperson what they assume their 'proper gender' is twofold.

First, that it doesn't really mean anything. People have been pranting on in this thread about how chromosomes and genetics solely decide one's gender. But the reality is folks there are a large variety of chromosomal and genetic disorders that can lead to these types of problems. Some cause biological abnormalities, others neurological.
But more importantly, the variety of factors that make up one's gender are in fact varied, so much in fact that neurological gender is complex and unorthodox compared to most rote categories people put these things in, and far more than biological stigmas either. (Issues like hermaphrodites, infertility, hormonal issues) Well someones internal sex is usually easily determined, there are so many factors going into one's mental machinations that you can't narrow it down to only male/female inside. It's a more complex issue than that.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> _Gender Identity is that innate sense of who you are in this world with reference to your sexuality and behavior, not necessarily corresponding to your genitalia and reproductive organs. Transgenders are atypical and “think” as the opposite gender. Certain areas of the brain have been shown to be sexually dimorphic. They are different in structure and numbers of neurons in males versus females. Protein Receptors for the sex hormones in different areas of the brain (limbic and anterior hypothalamic) must be present in sufficient numbers to receive those powerful hormones. There are androgen receptors (AR), Estrogen Receptors (ER), and Progesterone receptors (PRs). ARs or ERs are predominant at different times in different parts of the human brain. Hormone receptor genes have been identified in humans, which are responsible for sexually dimorphic brain differentiation in the hypothalamus. The groundwork in brain gender identity is gene-directed and takes place by forming male and female hormone receptors in the brain before the gonads and hormones can influence them. Multiple genes acting in concert determine our sexual identity. The human brain continues to make neurons and synaptic neuronal connections throughout life. This contributes to Gender Role Behaviors making individuals in the continuum of gender identity. Gender behaviors must be differentiated from gender identity (Hines). Gender Identity cannot be predicted from anatomy (Reiner). Brain gender identity is determined very early in fetal development, but gender expression, expressed as behaviors requires hormonal, environmental, social and cultural interactions, which evolve with time. One cannot deny the profound effects of Testosterone, Estradiol and other steroids on genital differentiation in-utero or their effects on behavior from birth or the physical and mental cross gender changes caused by exogenous hormones, but gender identity is determined before and persists in spite of these effects._
> -Brain gender identity. SW Ecker. Abstract presented at the American Psychiatric Association Annual Meeting; May 18, 2009; San Francisco.







Think of it like this, say we had to two humanoid species that look merely identical sans a few obvious differences, as well as common randomized advantages to disadvantages to their physique. Now how do these two species behave? Let's try using the animal-kingdom argument so acclaimed earlier:

Say you took the minds and brains of all of the animal kingdom, and raised them up to sentience and human 'intelligence', but nothing else. Now imagine all of these different mind-sets and stuffed them into the two species above.

Now asking what 'species' they are takes a very different meaning, perhaps far less actually. You would have these two acting in unordered and barely categorized ways. How would you define their mindsets then? You couldn't say 'species A' exhibits this behavior and 'species B' exhibits that one. 

And that's what makes these mere semantics so trivial. Because the thing is, most of mankind's gender-roles have been caused by biological and environmental factors, not neurological. (With Hunter-Gathers ensuring woman stay and be domestic because them having to make/feed babby constantly rather than hunt in addition to being physically weaker made it that much more difficult blahblah you know all this already) If aliens came down and observed gender-roles now and those of 1000s of years ago, they might come to different conclusions about what a 'man/woman is', but that interpretation wouldn't be some end-all inherent nature of either/

Gender itself is a spectrum and variable basically. So merely saying 'he/she's' really a 'woman/man' doesn't really hold any meaning. (To me at least) Which leads my to my next point.  

Second, is how people create this meaning. I really don't want to 'call' you anything at all. Acknowledge maybe, but adjust no. I mean sure I'll accept that sentimentally you feel your a men/woman inside, and sure therefore 'are' in fact a men/woman. But what does that even mean?
Do you want me to treat you differently? Treat you as if you were the gender you wish to be? Act as if that around you and give you a different set of rules or assumptions?
No. To me that's promoting inequality by having to 'assume' that you should be treated differently just because you're one gender or the other. I understand society expects us to coddle and prod to stereotypes and act differently to each gender, but... god, fuck that. To me that just seems like reinforcing the very same rigid perceptions and views that lead to this type of mess. 
Regardless of whether you're a man or woman, inside or out, I'd like to treat you the same. The time for Chivalry and Misogyny should belong and stay in the dark ages.

That being said, with my full respect, I'll treat the individual on a case-by-case basis how they wish to be treated. Even if it possibly disgruntledly reinforces these sorts of stereotypes.

Kue was right on when he said this was pretty much civil rights/feminism repeating itself. It's like a 1940's gent saying 'well yeah of course I'll consider your equal, Bhhhbuttt but but..' it's something of what one does in practice that counts. I'm sure blacks and woman didn't just want to be 'considered equal', they wanted rights, and to be treated like everyone else. 

I think what are the naysayers in this thread are doing is similar, or the opposite. You're saying 'Well sure I'll allow it, but I won't like it.' You're the gent who maybe considers into black's rights but will never formally consider them 'equal', by some imaginary quality in their head. 

Even if African Americans are made financially,academically,legally, and socially equal in all regards in every possible way, this person still won't acknowledge them as 'equal' in their heads. By what standards is this equality now even pertaining to? No one knows, but to him he still feels superior.( In his imagination.) It's quite juvenile.

This seems to be the same here. Even if in the future technology reaches the point where people are able to alter themselves down to the genetic level, where even their chromosomes could confirm their gender, it seems you people wouldn't acknowledge them as their proper self due to some megalomaniac reason.

Anyway...


----------



## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

> No. It's a physiological one you dumparse. That's like saying someone with Parkinson's disease just needs to be treated with plenty of therapy.



Edit: You added this to your post after I replied.

No it's a psychological one despite your need to label it physiological. A functioning male who believes they should be female is psychologically unstable. It's really terrible that you support enabling a disease instead of curing it.



> Even if African Americans are made financially,academically,legally, and socially equal in all regards in every possible way, this person still won't acknowledge them as 'equal' in their heads. By what standards is this equality now even pertaining to? No one knows, but to him he still feels superior.( In his imagination.) It's quite juvenile.
> 
> This seems to be the same here. Even if in the future technology reaches the point where people are able to alter themselves down to the genetic level, where even their chromosomes could confirm their gender, it seems you people wouldn't acknowledge them as their proper self due to some megalomaniac reason.



Need to validate your argument? Just link it to racism...


----------



## Xaosin (Apr 3, 2012)

Iovan said:


> Need to validate your argument? Just link it to racism...



It's comparable in that your viewpoint won't change regardless of the circumstances. Neither are logical.

Why don't you present actual facts rather than dancing around my arguments? Is it because bigotry isn't supported very well by reality?

Or if you seem so insistent on that point, tell my what you would consider a man who surgically alters his body to that of a woman, and literally grows a vagina, estrogen,alters her genetics and is a female body indistinguishable from a natural born female in every possible way. And then explain why.




Iovan said:


> No it's a psychological one despite your need to label it physiological. A functioning male who believes they should be female is psychologically unstable. It's really terrible that you support enabling a disease instead of curing it.



I'm only labeling what science has already validated as a common physiological issue, an abnormality in the brain chemistry that all people with this 'psychological' one just so happen to share. Facts are hard to deny.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm sorry, I have to interject. Did that pony snap that bear's neck?


----------



## Bishop (Apr 3, 2012)

Yeah I'm confused. Is that bear a cub or something?


----------



## Iovan (Apr 3, 2012)

Xaosin said:


> It's comparable in that your viewpoint won't change regardless of the circumstances. Neither are logical.



No it isn't comparable because the two issues are not even close to being the same. One is the belief that the member of a group of people is inferior to another group and the other is that _a person born a male had operations to appear female but isn't._ The two are so completely different the comparison is absurd and the only reason you brought it up was to slander those you disagree with as bigots.



> Why don't you present actual facts rather than dancing around my arguments? Is it because bigotry isn't supported very well by reality?



See how you link bigotry once again with those you disagree with? Not only that but in your wall of text post you broadly painted everyone a bigot regardless of what they say. In your mind they may say one thing but they are thinking the opposite. It's a ridiculous thought police mindset.



> Or if you seem so insistent on that point, tell my what you would consider a man who surgically alters his body to that of a woman, and literally grows a vagina, estrogen,alters *her* genetics and is a female body indistinguishable from a natural born female in every possible way. And then explain why.



Concerning the bold it's nice how you not so subtly change pronouns mid sentence. If such a thing were possible in your magic scenario then I would guess they would be a woman (though not a natural one). Really do you not see how ridiculous your scenario is though? We aren't discussing people who got a sex change by magic futuristic medical technology. The fact that you have to stretch out to that to prove your point in the current discussion is sad.

*However I would like to point out even if this were all possible in your magic scenario it is still a less desirable outcome than treating the mentally ill person who thinks they are the wrong sex. It is cruel of you to enable their delusions.*


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## Petes12 (Apr 3, 2012)

I don't pretend to understand why transexuals can't be ok with being a 'really girly guy' or whatever, and how much of their identity issues is down to how culture tells us gender roles should be. 

However, it's their own bodies to do what they want with. If they don't want to be the gender they were assigned at birth and surgery lets them change it, that doesn't make them mentally ill. 

I think tattoos are pretty nasty and I don't get why anyone would get one but I don't call people with them mentally ill.


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## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

There are also really "girly" guys who don't want to be women, you get all shades in between, also nearly all cross-dressers don't want to be women they do it because they want to or for entertainment.

For transsexuals it is more than just gender roles, looking feminine or looking masculine.


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## Xaosin (Apr 3, 2012)

Iovan said:


> No it isn't comparable because the two issues are not even close to being the same. One is the belief that the member of a group of people is inferior to another group and the other is that _a person born a male had operations to appear female but isn't._ The two are so completely different the comparison is absurd and the only reason you brought it up was to slander those you disagree with as bigots.



The source of the one's belief in both scenarios is powered by in-factual or lack of evidence leading to incorrect conclusions. And a straight up refusal to change that despite what's presented. (Hey Guys, the Presidents a BLACKY and went to harvard and became a senator and president! But who cares, I'm white and work at McDonalds but shit who cares he's still inferior despite logic indicating I'm the degenerate one)





> See how you link bigotry once again with those you disagree with? Not only that but in your wall of text post you broadly painted everyone a bigot regardless of what they say. In your mind they may say one thing but they are thinking the opposite. It's a ridiculous thought police mindset.



I'm not calling everyone a bigot, I'm merely suggesting some people need to educate themselves on these sorts of things without their ignorance-shades on.





> Concerning the bold it's nice how you not so subtly change pronouns mid sentence. If such a thing were possible in your magic scenario then I would guess they would be a woman *(though not a natural one)*. Really do you not see how ridiculous your scenario is though? We aren't discussing people who got a sex change by magic futuristic medical technology. The fact that you have to stretch out to that to prove your point in the current discussion is sad.



This is the issue here. You wouldn't consider her a 'natural one'? What the hell does that even mean? She's not 'natural' because at one point she wasn't a female before?
Well guess what, you were a sex-less fetus at one point. Hormones and chemicals wiggled their way in their and then you became whatever gender you are now. Woops, guess you're not a 'natural' either?
But the clarification is meaningless because for these people it's for the sake of being seen and treated as they see themselves. And you calling their very serious condition a 'psychological disease' as if you just arrived from the Victorian era is very disheartening. Are you going to give me rambles on the psychological harms of 'self-abuse' next?



> *However I would like to point out even if this were all possible in your magic scenario it is still a less desirable outcome than treating the mentally ill person who thinks they are the wrong sex. It is cruel of you to enable their delusions.*





Once again I suggest you brush up on that ignorance. Elaborate scientific research has and will continue to validate that people feeling these 'symptoms' of mis-placed gender often have similar bio-chemical imbalances and abnormalities in the brain, specifically in the hypothalamus region and limbic nucleus. As research has shown, findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences and its sexual reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the that transsexuals have a sexual differentiation of the brain. This points to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder. Like I said, you cannot deny facts, you can only turn a blind eye to them.

But oh who am I kidding, you're the type that won't educate themselves nor be convinced and turn a blind eye to any evidence presented to them. Until you actually stop being so ignorant and actually research the causes of transsexualism, I have no need to continue this debate and lecture you. It's like trying to argue with someone who believes cancer is caused by sins in their religion, and yet who refuses to even learn what the hell cancer actually is. (A threat caused by cell-mutations and malignant genetic dispositions)



Petes12 said:


> I don't pretend to understand why transexuals can't be ok with being a 'really girly guy' or whatever, and how much of their identity issues is down to how culture tells us gender roles should be.
> 
> However, it's their own bodies to do what they want with. If they don't want to be the gender they were assigned at birth and surgery lets them change it, that doesn't make them mentally ill.
> 
> I think tattoos are pretty nasty and I don't get why anyone would get one but I don't call people with them mentally ill.



It's not so much a gender issue (usually, in which I strongly desist operations for those which it is) as it is a physiological, bodily one. They literally 'feel' uncomfortable in their body, it's an issue with disconfiguration with their brain chemistry and and their body. Try to imagine yourself putting on uncomfortable clothes or such on yourself, that you can't take off. Now make those 'clothes' have melted inside your body, but you can still feel them shuffling around. Now imagine those clothes are flooding with icky chemicals and hormones your brain/body hates, and organs that your brain isn't properly 'wired up for' in the self-perception department. It'd drive you crazy

There's another neurological (despite what hadou may say) disorder that's comparable, it's called  in which people feel the need to amputate their body because their brain doesn't properly 'map out' it's form correctly, causing all sorts of wacky issues. Although whether or not that's recommended or ethical is for a whole other thread.




Gunners said:


> It is a mental abnormality, I don't know why people feel it is wrong to call things for what they are these days.



A physiological mental abnormality, that should be handled differently than merely a therapeutic one would. 



hadou said:


> As long as it is set in stone that no matter how many procedures a man goes to "become" a woman, that he is still a man, then all is good. The person may look like a women, but is still a man.



Even if those 'procedures' involve something like genetic therapy, nano-technology, or something vastly more accurate,less crude and more advanced than what we have now to the point of indistinguishability ? I'm sure society won't mind these 'men' entering men's bathrooms and such then.


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## Gunners (Apr 3, 2012)

It is a mental abnormality, I don't know why people feel it is wrong to call things for what they are these days.


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## hadou (Apr 3, 2012)

As long as it is set in stone that no matter how many procedures a man goes to "become" a woman, that he is still a man, then all is good. The person may look like a women, but is still a man.


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## Xaosin (Apr 3, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I don't pretend to understand why transexuals can't be ok with being a 'really girly guy' or whatever, and how much of their identity issues is down to how culture tells us gender roles should be.
> 
> However, it's their own bodies to do what they want with. If they don't want to be the gender they were assigned at birth and surgery lets them change it, that doesn't make them mentally ill.
> 
> I think tattoos are pretty nasty and I don't get why anyone would get one but I don't call people with them mentally ill.



It's not so much a gender issue (usually, in which I strongly desist operations for those which it is) as it is a physiological, bodily one. They literally 'feel' uncomfortable in their body, it's an issue with disconfiguration with their brain chemistry and and their body. Try to imagine yourself putting on uncomfortable clothes or such on yourself, that you can't take off. Now make those 'clothes' have melted inside your body, but you can still feel them shuffling around. Now imagine those clothes are flooding with icky chemicals and hormones your brain/body hates, and organs that your brain isn't properly 'wired up for' in the self-perception department. It'd drive you crazy

There's another neurological (despite what hadou may say) disorder that's comparable, it's called  in which people feel the need to amputate their body because their brain doesn't properly 'map out' it's form correctly, causing all sorts of wacky issues. Although whether or not that's recommended or ethical is for a whole other thread.


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## Petes12 (Apr 3, 2012)

Bioness said:


> There are also really "girly" guys who don't want to be women, you get all shades in between, also nearly all cross-dressers don't want to be women they do it because they want to or for entertainment.
> 
> For transsexuals it is more than just gender roles, looking feminine or looking masculine.



Alrighty. Like I said, I don't really know what exactly is going through their heads. But that doesn't mean how they feel isn't valid.


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## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Apr 3, 2012)

Better than most female body-builders !!.


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## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> Alrighty. Like I said, I don't really know what exactly is going through their heads. But that doesn't mean how they feel isn't valid.



No I understood, unlike some of the others here I'm glad you at least show some empathy for those who are different.


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## Xaosin (Apr 3, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> Alrighty. Like I said, I don't really know what exactly is going through their heads. But that doesn't mean how they feel isn't valid.



Like Bio said, I'm sure only they do, but it's appropriated and helpful that you're so tolerant.

Here's to anyone wishing to educate themselves more beyond the scope of the thread a bit explaining a lot of what's going on, from a purely technical and research standpoint: .  (Be warned, tis a bit rigorous and dry, but it's quite informative)


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## Leon (Apr 3, 2012)

Gunners said:


> It is a mental abnormality, I don't know why people feel it is wrong to call things for what they are these days.



Because those terms _could_ be used to disparage, and when insecure, biased individuals such as yourself use those terms, it comes off as disparaging. Hardly a difficult concept to understand.


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## Rabbit and Rose (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> So toruxus thinks its an asshole move of someone wanted to be an animal, but you treated them like a human. Using this logic, those humans that are raised by wild wolfes on dogs shouldn't be taken out of the wild, or treated as humans. He also thinks its not an asshole move to have sex without telling them "hey, I got a sex change"



I'd freak out, but, it will take a lot of steroids for a girl to look like my guy type.


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## Gunners (Apr 3, 2012)

Leon said:


> Because those terms _could_ be used to disparage, and when insecure, biased individuals such as yourself use those terms, it comes off as disparaging. Hardly a difficult concept to understand.


Nice flamebait .

Anyway.... burying your head in the sand is the incorrect approach to take. Recognising a mental abnormality exist but that the cause is physiological is the correct approach to take. Xaosin was able to do that and then justify physical treatment as opposed to psychological treatment.


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## Petes12 (Apr 3, 2012)

Xaosin said:


> It's not so much a gender issue (usually, in which I strongly desist operations for those which it is) as it is a physiological, bodily one. They literally 'feel' uncomfortable in their body, it's an issue with disconfiguration with their brain chemistry and and their body. Try to imagine yourself putting on uncomfortable clothes or such on yourself, that you can't take off. Now make those 'clothes' have melted inside your body, but you can still feel them shuffling around. Now imagine those clothes are flooding with icky chemicals and hormones your brain/body hates, and organs that your brain isn't properly 'wired up for' in the self-perception department. It'd drive you crazy
> 
> There's another neurological (despite what hadou may say) disorder that's comparable, it's called  in which people feel the need to amputate their body because their brain doesn't properly 'map out' it's form correctly, causing all sorts of wacky issues. Although whether or not that's recommended or ethical is for a whole other thread.



I guess that makes sense


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## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Xaosin said:


> -



What do you mean "treat them like a woman?"


 I'm going to treat them like I would treat anybody else I don't know, with respect. So I don't know why you would make a long detailed post over something I've already explained I'm not going to acknowledge. I don't see someone as a different gender if they get a "sex change"


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## Bioness (Apr 3, 2012)

Xaosin said:


> Here's to anyone wishing to educate themselves more beyond the scope of the thread a bit explaining a lot of what's going on, from a purely technical and research standpoint: .  (Be warned, tis a bit rigorous and dry, but it's quite informative)



I read it, more of a review but I'd like to quote the conclusion paragraph from it.



> 7.  In conclusion, transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment  of the brain. (Zhou et. al., 1995; Kruijver et. al., 2000). The condition has  not been found to be overcome by contrary socialisation, nor by psychological  or psychiatric treatments alone (Green, 1999). Individuals may benefit from an  approach that includes a programme of hormones and corrective surgery to achieve  realignment of the phenotype with the gender identity, accompanied by well-integrated  psychosocial interventions to support





Xaosin said:


> There's another neurological (despite what hadou may say) disorder that's comparable, it's called   in which people feel the need to amputate their body because their  brain doesn't properly 'map out' it's form correctly, causing all sorts  of wacky issues. Although whether or not that's recommended or ethical  is for a whole other thread.



I've seen that as well, yeah I am sort of on the line about it, on one hand I can see how it would make their life better to not have those "extra" parts that their brain doesn't register. On the other hand I see them as purposely handicapping themselves. From what I've seen it is mostly the legs that they do not want and not always equal, like they may want one leg amputated above the knee and another leg at the ankle.


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## itachi the hero (Apr 3, 2012)

if i was smashing her and she told me she was born a guy during..... i'd finish smashing her then get pisssed


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## Xaosin (Apr 3, 2012)

Flow said:


> What do you mean "treat them like a woman?"
> 
> 
> I'm going to treat them like I would treat anybody else I don't know, with respect. So I don't know why you would make a long detailed post over something I've already explained I'm not going to acknowledge. I don't see someone as a different gender if they get a "sex change"



Sorry, I skewered that a bit with the wording but tried to reconcile it a bit in my later post.

Yes, I agree it's tenacious, to have to treat these people like the walking stereotype they wish to represent (or those that are this way anyway), but like you said it's a matter of respect. 

I basically tried to explain how 'gender' is quite variable (and far different than sexual biology in that you cannot cut it down to 'male/female') And given a more humble demeanor I would treat all people the same as well, regardless of gender/transgender, whatever. I don't believe in special treatment for men or women or transmen/woman. But I'm saying I won't do that because despite that naturally gender shouldn't matter in interacting with a person (with the exception of romances and sexually related matters), people have expectations on these sorts of things.
But more than not, I'm going to treat them like an individual before I let any inclinations come in.

Of course you said 'with respect', but with respect to what? To them as dignifiable human beings who may wish you to treat them differently despite the unfortunate implications involved, or to respect to almighty society and it's oh-so-lenient gender-roles and expectations?

It's like I said, it's not so much a problem with the transgender or even individual attributed, as it is with societies views on these sorts of things in general. 
But that's the funny little thing isn't it. Society isn't really a thing. It's just, 'other people'.


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## Xion (Apr 3, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> That is not her actual beauty.



Ah I see in my absence the ignorant charade parade continues.

I wish I could live to see the day that mind uploading/downloading becomes possible or something like brain transplants are able to be done.

Or even closer than that, what about when one can have their own organs grown and the possibilities for transgendered individuals to have organs from the opposite sex created from stem cells and without immune system rejection?

Sure now barring original genetics, most of what can be done SRS-wise is mutilation pretty much for the genitalia sans the internal organs of the opposite sex. But we've already made it a point to use hormones to significantly change secondary sex characteristics. Taking them from a young enough age even being born the opposite sex can make one look pretty much exactly like the opposite sex in most ways. Pre-pubescent boys on estrogen and the other traditionally female hormones will look much more like girls than boys post-puberty and the same is true vice-versa. That's how fluid reality is even after one is born one sex or the other.

I can perceive the cringes of a million ossified minds at that point, but it's true. And you know why it's true? *It's just reality and I don't question the fact that gender role/gender identity/sexual orientation is a fluid, dynamic, non-dualistic aspect of identity in the 21st century on a level that ranges from environmental to psychological to genetic and all the nuances in between. Hell, environment influences genetics and biophysical chemical interactions at all levels as well, so these preconceived notions of what people are or should be are not easily defined at all even if at birth people have a certain genetic structure (which could express itself in the mind and body differently as well).*

If things are too complicated now with "too many" labels, I wait in anticipation for the day when things get more complicated and people yearn for the days when we had only a dozen or so ways of classifying gender identity and sexual orientation.

It's just a matter of evolving times and increasing understanding of mind and body and acceptance of the not-so-binary facts of life.

As for being "natural," well that's a crock of shit from any perspective. "Natural" is one of those loaded terms that more often is used to distort reality than support it. All those women up there have had cosmetic surgery or wear buckets of makeup or starve themselves to stay thin or whatever else.

Is that natural? Is that healthy? Is a beauty contest that promotes unrealistic expectations amongst viewers about women and forces notions of beauty in impressionable young womens' minds, a "natural" thing?

Bullocks and poppycock I say.


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## EJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Xaosin said:


> Sorry, I skewered that a bit with the wording but tried to reconcile it a bit in my later post.
> 
> Yes, I agree it's tenacious, to have to treat these people like the walking stereotype they wish to represent (or those that are this way anyway), but like you said it's a matter of respect.
> 
> ...




I'm not going to go around them, give them glares, gossip with others about how they "are freaks". Like I've explained before, they are going to remain what they were born as to me.

I'm not going to say "Hey thanks, MAN for helping me out.....MAN." What would be the purpose of me doing this? I have better things to do then to argue with someone about what they view themselves as and I don't think it's any of my business to try and converse with them and try to lol- you get the point.

I won't go out of my way to make things difficult for them basically. 

I would just be more cautious with what I say to them in order to avoid hitting nerves, and causing arguments.


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## Superstars (Apr 3, 2012)

lol, It doesn't matter how many drugs/surgeries it took. It's 23RD chromosomes is still XY, You are a male. Lets all stop playing disneyland make believe here people.


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## Big Mom (Apr 4, 2012)

While I hate Miss Universe pagents, I do not agree with this ruling.

Why is it that contestants can get plastic surgery and still compete but not a gender swap? What is the difference? Is she a woman now? Yes.


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## Blue (Apr 4, 2012)




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## Gecka (Apr 4, 2012)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> While I hate Miss Universe pagents, I do not agree with this ruling.
> 
> Why is it that contestants can get plastic surgery and still compete but not a gender swap? What is the difference? Is she a woman now? Yes.



I get that most people don't want to read the wall of text posts, but all throughout this thread you'll see posts that explain that he lied on his application as being born a female.


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## Big Mom (Apr 4, 2012)

So? She shouldn't have done that, but regardless, I am sure thousands lie on theirs as well.


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## Bioness (Apr 4, 2012)

I don't think thousands of beauty contestants lie about what sex they were born as...


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## .44 (Apr 4, 2012)

If you asked me to guess the transgender one... I would probably say both... but I think the one on the left looks more fake than the one on the right.


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## Gecka (Apr 4, 2012)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> So? She shouldn't have done that, but regardless, I am sure thousands lie on theirs as well.



You may want to reword that


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## rac585 (Apr 4, 2012)

This chick reminds me of Phoebe's pornstar twinsister from friends.


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## .44 (Apr 4, 2012)

I've thought about this some more.

I think it's unfair to consider transgender women to be the exact same as women.

Suppose Usain Bolt had a sex change. Would it be fair for Ursula Bolt to break every women's track and field record ever?

Or what if LeBron James had a sex change. Would it be fair for LeBriana James to completely dominate the WNBA?

No. 

What if George Bush had had a sex change while President. Would it be fair to crown Georgina Bush the first female President?

These are important consequences.


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## Blue (Apr 4, 2012)

.44 said:


> These are important consequences.


I agree in principle. 
For instance, the guy with his legs amputated at the knees who wants to compete in the Olympics.

I mean, it's cool that you've overcome your disability bro, but your lower legs weigh less than my cellphone. Get the fuck out of here.

But this is a bit more superficial. I mean, yeah, this bitch is 6'1". But that's not out of the realm of possibility for a natural girl, and it's not like a 5'10" girl is at a crippling disadvantage.

Everything else in these things - faces, boobs, teeth - are universally fake anyway.


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## Bioness (Apr 4, 2012)

Those who have had sex changes are allowed to compete in events but they have to meet the correct standard.

If those people you mentioned were to get a sex change it would literally take them years for them to even be a candidate for those events as their bodies need time to properly adjust to the hormones.

I would suggest you think before making such brash remarks, as these things have been thought about and considered for decades.


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## .44 (Apr 5, 2012)

Blue said:


> I agree in principle.
> For instance, the guy with his legs amputated at the knees who wants to compete in the Olympics.
> 
> I mean, it's cool that you've overcome your disability bro, but your lower legs weigh less than my cellphone. Get the fuck out of here.
> ...


Height is a big deal. I think the average model at these competitions is around 5'10" (completely BSed fact, but still probably close). For a woman that's like 80th percentile (also completely BSed). For a man that's like 53rd (yet again... you get it). 

They be cheatin'.


Bioness said:


> Those who have had sex changes are allowed to compete in events but they have to meet the correct standard.
> 
> If those people you mentioned were to get a sex change it would literally take them years for them to even be a candidate for those events as their bodies need time to properly adjust to the hormones.
> 
> I would suggest you think before making such brash remarks, as these things have been thought about and considered for decades.


You... somehow thought my post about LeBriana James was... serious? 

WTF. 

That's probably why they banned you.


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## Dollywitch (Oct 16, 2012)

So many problems with this thread, I just had to bump it.

I have been meaning to join this forum for some time, but to be honest, the presence of this thread made me feel uncomfortable. It taught me that half of the members here would not only not see me as a woman, but think they are doing the right thing by talking abusively and disrespectfully of the struggles of those like me. 

One of the first things I want to deal with is the competitive sports/athlete aspect. 

This is untrue. Transwomen, due to hormones, have a similar level of physical strength. Transwomen are on average stronger due to being taller and broader, making them, essentially, tall and broad women. But they have no advantage in terms of testosterone, since they don't have an abnormal level of testosterone. Moreover, many athletic disciplines, in the first place, rely more on lower body strength, where women are more similar in strength - and importantly, more flexible. I don't believe transwomen, on average, have the same level of gymnastic flexibility as a cisgendered woman. 

Secondly, related to the above, in terms of plastic surgery.

It is not necessary for a transwoman to have plastic surgery to appear as female. Hormones can alter fat distribution and texture of the skin - mostly everything that isn't bone structure, which is actually more divergent than bone structure. However keep in mind that this is how they would look if they were born into the correct sex. Hormones are especially effective if started early into puberty. It's very hard to make a call if the contest's policy is on "natural" beauty. If it was limited to transgendered people, purely to FFS related operations - things necessary to pass as female - then it wouldn't be quite so oppressive. It's a tough call and perhaps focusing on "natural beauty" is more discriminative than you might think. 

Third, the Karyotype issue. 

This is just ridiculous. People have provided strong evidence that sex is not a clear cut binary thing and it's been responded to with LOL CARE CONDITIONS INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY. What the hell? If anything, transgenderism is rarer than intersex conditions, which in their entirety can approach 1% of all births. Saying something is somehow rare, is an abnormality and doesn't apply is very insulting to all those suffering from rare conditions that means their chromosomes don't "correctly" match their physical sex. The point is - if you knew an XY woman(yes, this condition exists), would you treat them as male because their genetics don't match their appearance. 

From here I can go on to talk about the "Not a real woman" aspect. There are a bunch of brain sex studies I could link you showing that in general, the expected brain characteristics of a transgendered person is either the opposite of their physical sex, or somewhere in between. Given most trans people were raised as the opposite gender - the brain is a mix of plastic and hardwiring - it stands to reason it won't be quite as clear as a fully male or female brain in a fully male or female body. But in general - transgenderism is not a psychological issue - it is a neurological one - somewhat like autism. The neurological aspect also makes the comparisons to race rather ridiculous - race is largely physical and cultural, not neurological(unless you're a Stormfront fan).

There is no cure for transgenderism any more than there is a cure for homosexuality. It is fundamental to someone's identity. Basically it comes down to - which do you judge someone by, brain or body? If Brain, you have to accept that they are female(or male). Saying transgenderism is something that should be treated with THERAPY puts you in the lunatic NARTH camp. You're wrong. Scientifically. And the views you're pushing hurt real people. The resulting depression from transgenderism certainly needs to be treated, and is a psychological issue. But you can't man away the trans.

Moreover - what does it mean to be a man or a woman? Someone's genetics - even their genitalia has no bearing on social interacting with them. Gender is a mix of neural hardwiring(brain sex), and social construct(gender roles). Someone with an XY Karotype is not "biologically" male if they also have a vagina and estrogen governing their body's operation. The "otherkin" argument for similar reasons, doesn't hold. One can perform their role as male or female effectively. How do you "perform" the role of a dolphin while checking your watch, eating your meal at the chinese? 

The thing is dislike the most though, is the sheer lack of respect. It would be respectful to call this woman a woman, instead of moaning about LOL PC LIBERAL FASCISTS like some utter twat stuck in some kind of awkward teenage phase. If you pulled this in person, even with society's shitty view of trans people, you'd quickly look like the asshole. Trans people are vastly more likely to suffer from depressed, to be excluded, beaten, murdered, raped and suicide.

Coming to the trans cause as aggressive, and as smugly as some people have in this thread isn't just something I disagree with it. It's morally wrong, it's disgusting and it shows a complete lack of ability to empathise with or understand the situations of others. Trans people are human beings, human beings that are treated poorly by others. Treating them as some kind of artifact of political correctness is the most utterly dehumanising thing you can do. You do not care about their life experiences, their struggles, what health professionals, neurologists have to say about the validity of those experiences. You set out to attack the people who are in many cases on the bottom rung of society. 

"Disagreeing" with transgenderism(Which to me is like disagreeing with Gingerism) and being transgender are not equal viewpoints, the same with homophobe/homosexual. They are not sides of the same coin, one defines one's whole identity - the other is a mere opinion, one which is overwhelmingly likely to be associated with a lack of knowledge on the subject, or a lack of will to empathise with others. 

As a trans person, having read this thread, I do not feel comfortable on this forum. It's bad enough people don't consider me a "real" woman based on shaky, outdated reasoning. But I am also being shoved into a vastly lower position based on my condition, affording more privilege to those who are not transgendered. Being trans, again, is not the same as being transphobic - not a hateful act. 

That's not equal and not fair. And I don't suspect anyone has a valid rebuttal why I deserve to be treated and feel like shit on this forum because of some edgy badasses who think they're sticking it to the man (or woman) by posting hateful bullshit. You can argue abut gender identity without being so vicious or abrasive. However several people in here have no interest in doing so.

It does not hurt to be respectful to those in situations worse to your own.


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## AfterGlow (Oct 16, 2012)

The fact that you bumped it is a bigger problem than some kids being stupid and immature.

Seriously, make a thread about it in the Debate section.


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2012)

Don't necro threads.


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## Dollywitch (Oct 16, 2012)

AfterGlow said:


> The fact that you bumped it is a bigger problem than some kids being stupid and immature.
> 
> Seriously, make a thread about it in the Debate section.



Are you seriously saying a bump is worse than rampant transphobia?

I wanted to reply directly to things that were said in this thread.

Also, Mael is the last person to be explaining any sort of etiquette to anyone. I have no reason to listen to people who do not respect me as a human being.


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2012)

Cry about it.  Don't necro threads.

You sound like you've got some past history.  Are you a dupe perhaps?


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## Blue (Oct 16, 2012)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> Also yes I would hit it like the fist of the north, south, east and west stars. I would super star hit it.



This is honestly the most respectful thing I could possibly have said.

Anyway, you're wrong about a few things. I guess just one thing.


> This is untrue. Transwomen, due to hormones, have a similar level of physical strength.


Not necessarily true or even likely. I'm sure you'll agree with me, as well, that a transgender person is not defined by which hormones they are or are not taking. Absent testes, testosterone production is, of course, lower, but testosterone consumption via the 5α-reductase metabolic pathway is also considerably lower, as there are no gonads for the testosterone to express in.

Complicated, but long story short is that a transgendered person's hormone levels are a mess and can't be controlled to the degree required of competitive sports. S'just a fact.

Also



> Coming to the trans cause as aggressive, and as smugly as some people have in this thread isn't just something I disagree with it. It's morally wrong, it's disgusting and it shows a complete lack of ability to empathise with or understand the situations of others.


Considering how many people came to the defense of transgendered individuals in this thread, you're coming across as awfully - dare I say it? Entitled. It's true that a great deal of disrespect was bandied about, but painting everyone in a room in which disrespect was registered with a single brush isn't gonna win you any allies.


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## Dollywitch (Oct 16, 2012)

Mael said:


> Cry about it.  Don't necro threads.



Again, you are in no position to be prescribing forum etiquette to anyone.


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2012)

Dollywitch said:


> Again, you are in no position to be prescribing forum etiquette to anyone.



You sound like a dupe seeing how you act like you know me.


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## AfterGlow (Oct 16, 2012)

Dollywitch said:


> Are you seriously saying a bump is worse than rampant transphobia?
> 
> I wanted to reply directly to things that were said in this thread.



Yeah, much worse, since people have moved the fuck on from this thread, AND WE DON'T NECRO THREADS IN THIS FORUM. You are not going to get any replies from the people you are trying to address as they aren't hanging around, if anything this thread will probably get locked and thrown in the trash.

Like I said; create a debate thread.


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## Chelydra (Oct 16, 2012)

_good_ Only people born as women should be allowed to compete. The idea that someone voted the hottest person in the "universe" had a dick is gross.


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## Dollywitch (Oct 16, 2012)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> This is honestly the most respectful thing I could possibly have said.
> 
> Anyway, you're wrong about a few things. I guess just one thing.
> Not necessarily true or even likely. I'm sure you'll agree with me, as well, that a transgender person is not defined by which hormones they are or are not taking. Absent testes, testosterone production is, of course, lower, but testosterone consumption via the 5α-reductase metabolic pathway is also considerably lower, as there are no gonads for the testosterone to express in.
> ...



Testosterone levels are checked regardless so that would rule out non-transitioning trans. Endocrinologists have to closely watch these levels regardless, due to various health issues. Most trans people experience a significant drop in strength when on HRT. Transwomen do not have a significant advantage, on average, in terms of physical strength.

Also, testosterone production isn't just reduced by the absence of testes. Anti-androgens and estrogens bring down testosterone level long before any operations are performed, to the extent where many trans experience a normal female level of body hair, for example. 



> Considering how many people came to the defense of transgendered individuals in this thread, you're coming across as awfully - dare I say it? Entitled. It's true that a great deal of disrespect was bandied about, but painting everyone in a room in which disrespect was registered with a single brush isn't gonna win you any allies.



This is absolute horeshit and you know it. The fact is that a cisgendered person coming on here does not have to face the level of discomfort a trans people have. As far as I can say Mael was in no way challenged by the administration over his remarks, nor was anyone else. I'm willing to bet however, if my replies got aggressive enough with him, I may well be. 

Even if people were defending trans people, the fact is that this is an extremely large portion, around half the people in this thread expressed ignorant or hateful views towards transgendered people. This is not acceptable, and it is not acceptable as an admin to turn it around on me and called me "Entitled" when I'm not looking for a greater level of respect than anyone else. Nobody should have to feel like half, or a large portion of the forum are disrespectful towards them and nothing is done on behalf of the staff to at least reasonably curb how abusive that disrespect can get. 

You'd be hard pushed to find many people in the LGBT thread that would agree with your stance.

Calling me "entitled" is the most unbelievably inappropriate thing you could have done. It hits too close to much of the rhetoric used to dismiss LGBT rights entirely.


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## Dollywitch (Oct 16, 2012)

Chelydra said:


> _good_ Only people born as women should be allowed to compete. The idea that someone voted the hottest person in the "universe" had a dick is gross.



Again, I can and will take this as an insult towards me as it is pretty clearly calling me, as a trans person, "gross" when thought of in the context of being attractive. This isn't just expressing an opinion, it's attacking a whole group.

I don't see any reason for these juvenile positions to be expressed in this manner.


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## Chelydra (Oct 16, 2012)

Im sorry not every male likes the idea of sticking his dick in someone who formerly was a male.


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## Xyloxi (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm a member of the LGBT society and I don't really care, so I'd rather if you didn't speak for me. As others have said, necroing a thread isn't exactly helpful and it doesn't make for a good start during your time here.


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## Blue (Oct 16, 2012)

Dollywitch said:


> This is absolute horeshit and you know it. The fact is that a cisgendered person coming on here does not have to face the level of discomfort a trans people have. As far as I can say Mael was in no way challenged by the administration over his remarks, nor was anyone else. I'm willing to bet however, if my replies got aggressive enough with him, I may well be.
> 
> Calling me "entitled" is the most unbelievably inappropriate thing you could have done. It hits too close to much of the rhetoric used to dismiss LGBT rights entirely.


I'm a LGBT activist.

You're just a jerk.


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## Blue (Oct 16, 2012)

Well... I can certainly understand WHY you're a jerk.

But you're still blowing your own feet clean off with your ridiculous attitude.


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## Megaharrison (Oct 17, 2012)

NECROMANCY IS FORBIDDEN.


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