# How strong is Itachi Uchiha + Strongest he can defeat + Weakest that can beat him



## IzayaOrihara (Jun 10, 2016)

The questions I'm asking are basically what's in the title.
Use manga/data-book evidence to support all opinions/debates.


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## Android (Jun 10, 2016)

Strongest he can beat : jiraiya 
if he's an Edo he beats KCM naruto but it'll be 50/50

weakest that can beat him i donno , maybe kakashi ???

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 10, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Strongest he can beat : jiraiya


Partially agreed. How would he do this in an IC fight? May I ask?


> if he's an Edo he beats KCM naruto but it'll be 50/50


Agreed.


> weakest that can beat him i donno , maybe kakashi ???


Which form of Kakashi lol.


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## Matty (Jun 10, 2016)

Healthy he can probably compete with Minato. Although I favor Minato more.

I think healthy and IC he can compete with Pein also. But safest bet would be Tobirama


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## Android (Jun 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Partially agreed. How would he do this in an IC fight? May I ask?


when you ask who's the strongest X can beat , i usualy take it as who's the strongest X has the potential to beat 
in an actual fight , X can actually lose 10/10 against said character 


IzayaOrihara said:


> Agreed.


good


IzayaOrihara said:


> Which form of Kakashi lol.


post pain arc kakashi , abviously not DMS kakashi lol


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2016)

Being able to beat someone is different than how strong a character is. Itachi w/ the right conditions has a chance to beat anyone who is not God-Tier (Barring Match up), even the those that stand at the top of High-Tier and are holistically > ninja to him, like Danzo, Nagato, Minato, etc... However pretty much any high-tier can beat Itachi w/ the right conditions, even holistically inferior Ninja like Rasa, Ei, etc...

As far as how strong Itachi is, I'd say he's towards the upper end of High-Tier, but not quite among those at the top. Here's a rough example:

1. Nagato / Minato / MS-Obito / Danzo / Prime-Hanzo / Prime-Hiruzen
2. Tobirama / Jiraiya / Itachi / Mu / Gengetsu / Killer B
3. Orochimaru / Onoki / Tsunade / Old-Hiruzen

So overall I'd expect Itachi to perform roughly as well or better than most high-tiers w/ a few exceptions.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Matty (Jun 10, 2016)

Without Koto I don't see Danzo being that high. Is Koto why you ranked him that way? Or do you still think even without it he is above Itachi. I agree with your placement of him tbh. I think him, bee and Tobirama are above My/Gengetsu though.

And I don't buy Prime Hanzo or Prime Hiruzen hype


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2016)

Matty said:


> Without Koto I don't see Danzo being that high. Is Koto why you ranked him that way? Or do you still think even without it he is above Itachi. I agree with your placement of him tbh.


Koto is the reason I ranked him that high. And I try not to get into ranking characters w/ or w/o one ability or another, because the author isn't ranking them that way so it's hard to figure out where they'd be.



> I think him, bee and Tobirama are above My/Gengetsu though.


Remember these are just brackets. Like I think Tobirama is better than Jiraiya, but the gap is relatively small so I put them in the same bracket. Same thing w/ Itachi in regards to Mu and Gengetsu. So for example if I did a linear list:

1. Tobirama
2. Jiraiya
3. Itachi
4. Gengetsu
5. Mu

Killer-B i'm not decided on to be honest.



> And I don't buy Prime Hanzo or Prime Hiruzen hype


Prime-Hiruzen is certainly more debatable, because of retecons. But DBIV does strongly suggest that he surpassed Tobirama, and that's why I place him there.

Prime-Hanzo to me is not debatable the manga has made it very clear that he's well above Jiraiya and belongs in that bracket.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 10, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Being able to beat someone is different than how strong a character is. Itachi w/ the right conditions has a chance to beat anyone who is not God-Tier (Barring Match up), even the those that stand at the top of High-Tier and are holistically > ninja to him, like Danzo, Nagato, Minato, etc... However pretty much any high-tier can beat Itachi w/ the right conditions, even holistically inferior Ninja like Rasa, Ei, etc...
> 
> As far as how strong Itachi is, I'd say he's towards the upper end of High-Tier, but not quite among those at the top. Here's a rough example:
> 
> ...


Already, I can see Jiraiya > Orochimaru so this is nonsense
Killer Bee lost to Kisame, but he is stronger than the Sannin?
Old Hiruzen is High Kage? Onoki is too? They are Sannin level?
Danzo is above Sannin , on level with Nagato, on level with Prime Hiruzen?
Itachi is on Tobirama's level?

This is wrong on so many levels. I actually think I am going to be sick
TOP TIER
God Tier: Kaguya > RSM Naruto, Rinnegan Sasuke, Juudaara, Juubito
Transcendent: SM Hashirama, VOTE Hashirama, BSM Naruto, EMS Sasuke (w/ PS)
Ascendant: Base Hashirama, EMS Madara (with PS), Edo Madara, DMS Kakashi
HIGH KAGE
Upper: Nagato, Minato, Hanzo (Prime), Hiruzen (Prime), EMS Madara (restricted to V3)
Mid: Orochimaru, Tsunade, Jiraiya, EMS Madara (restricted to V2)
Lower: Itachi (Healthy), Izuna, MS Madara/EMS Madara (restricted to V3), Tobirama, Sasori (seriously underrated), Orochimaru with no ET, Jiraiya with no SM, Tsunade with no Byakugo Mode
MID KAGE
Upper: Itachi (Sick), Kisame, Killer Bee, Raikage, Deidara, MS Sasuke (Danzo fight), War Arc Gaara, Onoki
Mid: Hebi Sasuke (no plot no jutsu), Pt. 2 Orochimaru (KN4 Fight; Healthy [for majority of the fight]), MS Sasuke (Kage Summit)
Lower: Kakuzu, Pt. 2 Orochimaru (Sick), Taka Sasuke (Killer Bee fight)
LOW KAGE
Upper: Hanzo (Edo), Chiyo, Healthy Kimimaro, Drugged Jiraiya, Sealed Orochimaru, Rusty Tsunade
Mid: Hidan, Mei Terumi, Deathbed Orochimaru (Hebi Sasuke fight)
Lower: CS2 Jugo, Pt. 2 Kakashi (pre-War Arc)
JONIN TIER
Upper: Pt. 1 Kakashi, Pt. 1 Kabuto, Gai (obviously no Hachimon and all that), Yamato
Middle: Sound 4
Lower: Shizune, Aoba, Ebisu,

I can explain Tsunade > Itachi but I don't have the time nor the patience to do it right now. Some inaccuracies maybe (especially with Madara), but I think this is okay.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Jun 10, 2016)

Itachi's level has been made clear throughout the manga. People can wank all they want, overrate his abilities, make excuses...etc etc

Kishi made it clear that
itachi is stronger than Oro (Before War Arc came)
and weaker than Jiraiya.

We have seen their stats in the 3rd Databook being extremely close or identical (total stats) with base Jiraiya (SM does not count with the stats). We have seen how the whole thing between SM and MS works several times.

so, yeah, he is on the same level as the Sannin. He was NEVER compared to anyone else in term of power, and I don't see any reason to why we should assume otherwise either.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Already, I can see Jiraiya > Orochimaru so this is nonsense
> .


I find it nonsense, to say it's nonsense for someone to believe Jiraiya is > Orochimaru


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## oiety (Jun 10, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Being able to beat someone is different than how strong a character is. Itachi w/ the right conditions has a chance to beat anyone who is not God-Tier (Barring Match up), even the those that stand at the top of High-Tier and are holistically > ninja to him, like Danzo, Nagato, Minato, etc... However pretty much any high-tier can beat Itachi w/ the right conditions, even holistically inferior Ninja like Rasa, Ei, etc...
> 
> As far as how strong Itachi is, I'd say he's towards the upper end of High-Tier, but not quite among those at the top. Here's a rough example:
> 
> ...



Pretty much agree completely. To answer the question directly posed in the OP, I'd say the strongest he can beat is Minato, with Minato also being the weakest who defeats him consistently. Overall I'd say its a 60/40 Matchup for Minato vs a Healthy Itachi, in favor of Minato.
If we bring Edo Itachi into the equation, then imo he beats Minato, and the weakest person to defeat him becomes DSM Kabuto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 10, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I find it nonsense, to say it's nonsense for someone to believe Jiraiya is > Orochimaru


Why is that? Manga dictates Orochimaru is stronger.

It might be wrong for me to say no one is allowed an opinion, but why have a subjective opinion about an objective manga.

By your logic, it is okay for one to say Deidara is stronger than Sasori.

These arent real people. Kishi is writing their words. Why would he portray Jiraiya < Orochimaru so that you can believe Jiraiya > Orochimaru. It doesn't make sense.

Tell me how and why, by portrayal/hype and by feats/abilties, that Jiraiya > Orochimaru then?

I'd love to hear this.


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Why is that? Manga dictates Orochimaru is stronger.
> 
> It might be wrong for me to say no one is allowed an opinion, but why have a subjective opinion about an objective manga.


There is nothing in the manga that indisputably or objectively places Orochimaru above Jiraiya. So that alone is an intellectually dishonest statement on your behalf.



> By your logic, it is okay for one to say Deidara is stronger than Sasori.
> These arent real people. Kishi is writing their words. Why would he portray Jiraiya < Orochimaru so that you can believe Jiraiya > Orochimaru. It doesn't make sense.
> 
> Tell me how and why, by portrayal/hype and by feats/abilties, that Jiraiya > Orochimaru then?
> ...


Okay let's compare and contrast Sasori/Deidara to Jiraiya/Orochimaru. Deidara himself directly admits his inferiority. Jiraiya on the other hand does not at any point assert that he's inferior to Orochimaru; rather a character who Orochimaru admitted inferiority [Itachi] to states Jiraiya is his equal or better.

Moving on from that, when Deidara defeated a Kazekage, Kishimoto made a point of having it stated that Sasori had the ability to defeat a Kazekage that towered above the one that Deidara defeated in strength. This is not the case w/ Orochimaru, rather it's Jiraiya whose stated to be able to defeat an enemy [Pain] whose even > than the enemy Orochimaru could not defeat [Itachi]. And while Jiraiya needs knowledge to do so, Orochimaru & Sasuke implied he could not defeat Itachi under any circumstance & we know he had a great deal of knowledge on Sharingan's capabilities when he engaged Itachi; so knowledge wouldn't allow Orochimaru to do any better, again against an inferior opponent to the one Jiraiya was stated capable of beating with it.

Sasori also objectively had better DB states than Deidara, conversely Orochimaru's DB stats are not better than Jiraiya's, rather Jiraiya's in base are superior to Orochimaru's.  And Sasori's abilities themselves are portrayed as superior to Deidara's, Orochimaru's abilities are not portrayed superior to Jiraiya's, rather it's Jiraiya who takes his respective Sannin art further by acquiring Sennin Modo something Orochimaru could not achieve himself.

Characterization wise Deidara was also portrayed as inferior to Sasori; Kishimoto had him use honorifics that suggest Sasori was his superior; and overall he was in the role of the secondary member of the 2 man squad between himself and Sasori, which historically would imply his inferiority, I.E. Itachi > Kisame, Kakuzu > Hidan, Nagato > Konan. Characterization wise, Jiraiya could have been inferior to Orochimaru at one point, but considering every single NaruXSasu rivalry parallel results in the Naru parallel being superior to the inferior Sasu parallel, the characterization of Jiraiya and Orochimaru in these roles strongly implies Jiraiya's superiority. As does the characterization of Jiraiya possessing the WOF and confirming to Kishimoto's ideals for what makes a great Ninja, while Orochimaru fell from that path.

Etc....



> Tell me how and why, by portrayal/hype and by feats/abilties, that Jiraiya > Orochimaru then?


The above paragraphs explains a-lot of it, though not all.

You are free to respond to it, but as I said before to you if you throw out objective lies, I'm done. So if you wish to have an actual discussion that's fine, but the moment you resort to your typical bias i'm out.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2016)

Itachi is on the same tier as Minato and Nagato, stronger than people like Tobirama, Danzo, Onoki, A, Kirabi but weaker than VOTE Madara, Hashirama and above.

Strongest he can beat : Nagato

Weakest who can beat him : Minato

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 11, 2016)

Depends. With normal stipulations he can beat SM Jiraiya and people around that level. But with the "strongest he can defeat" as if we say Tenten can kill Madara slashing his throat while he sleeps, then... Rikudo Sasuke .

Weakest is tricky. I see the same one. Jiraiya. Problem is that people above Jiraiya have a gap between that tier (Pain, Nagato, and above him) wich is why i can't say more. And people weaker than Jiraiya shouldn't have much of a chance considering how prepared for anything Itachi always is.


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## Ishmael (Jun 11, 2016)

I started a convo with Matty, cctr9 and IzayaOrihara and asked them where does itachi truly stand and cctr9 said this....

he is at the level of the sannin

he is below the likes of minato , tobirama , pain , nagato , naruto , sasuke , hashirama , madara

And honestly I agree,  alot of people on this forum has ranked him on sannin level and imo he's on sannin level but he's not beating nagato and he's not beating minato either but sorry for the triple posting it doesn't allow me to edit my post so....their's nothing else I can do


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2016)

I find Itachi to be equal with Minato near the top of High Kage lvl. The strongest I see him beating is Minato and the weakest that I can see beating him would be Jiraiya


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2016)

I don't see how Hashirama w/o knowledge would counter Tsukuyomi. Pretty sure it'd take him down.

Weakest that can beat him is Nagato or Kakashi.


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## Itachi san88 (Jun 11, 2016)



Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2016)

Just saying, he doesn't have a counter. He can murk Itachi with Mokuton *if *he attacks first, or use Sage Mode.

But he he no knowledge of Itachi and Itachi has knowledge of him, so he'd probably land Tsukuyomi.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 11, 2016)

Itachi = Jiraiya, a fight between them could go either way.

Obito > Itachi.

That's what I know for sure.


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## Itachi san88 (Jun 11, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Just saying, he doesn't have a counter. He can murk Itachi with Mokuton *if *he attacks first, or use Sage Mode.
> 
> But he he no knowledge of Itachi and Itachi has knowledge of him, so he'd probably land Tsukuyomi.


Hashirama fights against the Uchiha and Madara since....forever, dude. It does not matter if Tsukuyomi is more powerful, ninja with experienced are not stupid. Uchiha are famous also for their genjutsu.

Onoki, much weaker than Hashirama, it's a clear example


*Spoiler*: __ 








Itachi has no chance, in any scenario.


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## LightningForce (Jun 11, 2016)

Itachi as he was before his death, just clears the bottom of the High-Kage tier. Edo Itachi is comfortably in that tier because the perks he gains as an Edo offset any handicaps such as decrease in strength, speed, etc. when he mainly relies on genjutsu, dojutsu and clone feints.

For living Itachi in a manga knowledge scenario, strongest he defeats will probably be Minato; weakest that beats him will probably be Kakashi. Of course, different conditions will allow him to defeat different kinds of opponents.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 11, 2016)

Itachi is a high kage shinobi on the level with the Sannin , his max level is like Jiraiya pushing Nagato to the brink but falling just short of him , the strongest opponents he could beat straight up are probably , MS Sasuke, Killer Bee, Orochimaru , Hiruzen

He was thee beast before the beast arrived like Minato, Nagato, Obito , Kabuto, ect just as they were before Madara, Hashirama arrived


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## Matty (Jun 11, 2016)

Itachi is above jiraiya. He is above the sannin as a whole. And no way in hell does he defeat Nagato


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 11, 2016)

Matty said:


> Itachi is above jiraiya. He is above the sannin as a whole. And no way in hell does he defeat Nagato



Yet Jiraiya had the capacity to beat Nagato.

Hmm...


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## Matty (Jun 11, 2016)

He had the capacity to beat Pein with full knowledge in a setting that Pein couldn't use his big guns.

He cannot beat an unrestricted Pein or even think about beating a mobile and healthy Nagato (as fanfic as that is)

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2016)

Matty said:


> He had the capacity to beat Pein with full knowledge in a setting that Pein couldn't use his big guns.


I don't know why people think Pain was restricted. Kishimoto at no point indicated Pain was unwilling to use any Jutsu in Amegakuru and in-fact Pain's first move was to spam summons that rampaged through the Amegakuru streets with reckless abandon. Additionally the guy was willing to kill someone as close to him as Jiraiya and nuke entire villages. So what reason does the manga give us to believe Nagato is unwilling to cause massive damage to Amegakuru?

The truth is Jiraiya would have beaten Pain w/ knowledge probably because he would have beaten Pain before Pain had a chance to use his big guns.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 11, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I don't know why people think Pain was restricted. Kishimoto at no point indicated Pain was unwilling to use any Jutsu in Amegakuru and in-fact Pain's first move was to spam summons that rampaged through the Amegakuru streets with reckless abandon.


There were no civilians on these streets. "Reckless abandon" when they had the Rinnegan and chakra rods, clearly implying they were being controlled by Pain? I think not.


Turrin said:


> Additionally the guy was willing to kill someone as close to him as Jiraiya and nuke entire villages.


He was willing to kill anyone who got in the way of his plans, and if that included Jiraiya, so be it.


Turrin said:


> So what reason does the manga give us to believe Nagato is unwilling to cause massive damage to Amegakuru?


First of all, he's from there. Second of all, he started a civil war to overthrow Hanzo. Much of the village sympathized with him. He was clearly loyal to his village. And third, they worship him like a god and would obey him without question. Why would he cause any harm to them under these circumstances? There's no reason whatsoever.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Ishmael (Jun 11, 2016)

I seems like


Equilibrium139 said:


> There were no civilians on these streets. "Reckless abandon" when they had the Rinnegan and chakra rods, clearly implying they were being controlled by Pain? I think not.
> 
> He was willing to kill anyone who got in the way of his plans, and if that included Jiraiya, so be it.
> 
> First of all, he's from there. Second of all, he started a civil war to overthrow Hanzo. Much of the village sympathized with him. He was clearly loyal to his village. And third, they worship him like a god and would obey him without question. Why would he cause any harm to them under these circumstances? There's no reason whatsoever.



True pein is  seen as god by the villagers because of how he defeated hanzo and I guess freed them from the bad lives they we're living


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> There were no civilians on these streets.


Proof



> He was willing to kill anyone who got in the way of his plans, and if that included Jiraiya, so be it.


If Jiraiya beat him that would get in the way of his plans, hence if it came down to it he'd be willing to destroy Amegakuru to prevent that.



> First of all, he's from there. Second of all, he started a civil war to overthrow Hanzo. Much of the village sympathized with him. He was clearly loyal to his village. And third, they worship him like a god and would obey him without question. Why would he cause any harm to them under these circumstances? There's no reason whatsoever.


Cool, Obito was from Konoha yet it didn't stop him from summoning Kyuubi to rampage through Konoha's streets. Nagato was in the darkness at that point. If he was willing to kill someone as important to him as Jiraiya, than he'd be willing to kill random Amegakuru civilians.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 12, 2016)

Strongest he can beat ->> Nagato
Weakest that can beat him ->> Nagato


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 12, 2016)

Matty said:


> Itachi is above jiraiya. He is above the sannin as a whole. And no way in hell does he defeat Nagato



No he isn't data score , parallels, author words, feats all disagree , no he isn't he might be slightly stronger than them but like with Jiraiya his .5 data score says he isn't much stronger than them , and yes under the right conditions he could push Pain just like Jiraiya considering backup and circumstances both Jiraiya and Itachi showed they had the abilities and intellect to counter Nagato's ninjutsu now are they on his level NO.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Proof


Come on man. Reread the fight and you'll clearly see that there were no civilians walking around at any point during the fight. I'm not the one who has to prove that there were no civilians, you have to prove that there were. They seemed to be fighting either near Nagato's building or in abandoned alleys, and also it was stated that people did not come near Pain's building. Regardless, even if there were civilians, Pain is controlling the summons so that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't want to harm them.


Turrin said:


> If Jiraiya beat him that would get in the way of his plans, hence if it came down to it he'd be willing to destroy Amegakuru to prevent that.


No, that's why he used the element of surprise, utilized Jiraiya's lack of knowledge to the fullest, and didn't bring out the big guns (preta) until the end of the fight, and even then it was merely to ensure victory. The evidence is all there and it shows he was taking as much caution as possible so as to not have to use any jutsu on his own village. 


Turrin said:


> Cool, Obito was from Konoha yet it didn't stop him from summoning Kyuubi to rampage through Konoha's streets. Nagato was in the darkness at that point. If he was willing to kill someone as important to him as Jiraiya, than he'd be willing to kill random Amegakuru civilians.


First of all, that parallel you're trying to make between Obito and Nagato doesn't exist. Obito was some little kid with a fucked up mind. Nagato actually wanted to have peace among the nations. But let's just assume that you're right on this one. There's still a difference, and that is the fact that Amegakuru was all on board with Pain, and they worshipped and obeyed him without question. Konoha on the other hand, was just some place Obito wanted to get revenge on and recklessly destroy. Killing people to Nagato is necessary only to ensure peace among the nations. How would he achieve that by destroying his own village that would follow him to the death? Killing people to Obito was like a game. It really didn't matter who his victim was. Huge difference mate.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> Come on man. Reread the fight and you'll clearly see that there were no civilians walking around at any point during the fight. I'm not the one who has to prove that there were no civilians, you have to prove that there were. They seemed to be fighting either near Nagato's building or in abandoned alleys, and also it was stated that people did not come near Pain's building. Regardless, even if there were civilians, Pain is controlling the summons so that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't want to harm them.


It's an active city and there was no evacuation. We also directly see collateral damage to people from the summoning battle:


If Nagato gave a shit about collateral damage he wouldn't have immediately turned the fight into a Godzilla Monster battle on top of skyscrapers filled with people.



> No, that's why he used the element of surprise, utilized Jiraiya's lack of knowledge to the fullest, and didn't bring out the big guns (preta) until the end of the fight, and even then it was merely to ensure victory. The evidence is all there and it shows he was taking as much caution as possible so as to not have to use any jutsu on his own village.


Nagato was being cautious of Jiraiya, not cautious of destroying Amegakuru. 



> First of all, that parallel you're trying to make between Obito and Nagato doesn't exist. Obito was some little kid with a fucked up mind. Nagato actually wanted to have peace among the nations. But let's just assume that you're right on this one. There's still a difference, and that is the fact that Amegakuru was all on board with Pain, and they worshipped and obeyed him without question. Konoha on the other hand, was just some place Obito wanted to get revenge on and recklessly destroy. Killing people to Nagato is necessary only to ensure peace among the nations. How would he achieve that by destroying his own village that would follow him to the death? Killing people to Obito was like a game. It really didn't matter who his victim was. Huge difference mate.


Copy- If Jiraiya beat him that would get in the way of his plans, hence if it came down to it he'd be willing to destroy Amegakuru to prevent that. - Paste


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 12, 2016)

Did it specify anywhere in the manga that Nagato was weary of destroying Rain ? , I didn't see it Jiraiya and Pa frng are very perceptive and don't remember them saying it at all , didn't see Nagato mention it at all .


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> Did it specify anywhere in the manga that Nagato was weary of destroying Rain ? , I didn't see it Jiraiya and Pa frng are very perceptive and don't remember them saying it at all , didn't see Nagato mention it at all .


No it's never suggested even once as a handicap for Nagato and Nagato's first move is to incite a Boss summon battle atop skyscrapers. People are just making this shit up. The only stipulation on Jiriaya beating Pain was knowledge, that's it

With that said Jiraiya being able to beat Pain-Rikudo doesn't mean he's >= Nagato as an overall Ninja. Nagato is indisputably the superior Ninja imo.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> No it's never suggested even once as a handicap for Nagato and Nagato's first move is to incite a Boss summon battle atop skyscrapers. People are just making this shit up. The only stipulation on Jiriaya beating Pain was knowledge, that's it
> 
> With that said Jiraiya being able to beat Pain-Rikudo doesn't mean he's >= Nagato as an overall Ninja. Nagato is indisputably the superior Ninja imo.



But Naruto could beat Pain before he ran out of Sage Mode and the only difference is Naruto couldn't stay in Sage Mode long enough to finish the job , Sage Mode could damage Juubito , its a powerful Jutsu that spikes the user's power level tremendously


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> It's an active city and there was no evacuation. We also directly see collateral damage to people from the summoning battle:


IIRC people were not allowed to go near Pain's building. That is one scan of people losing their balance and falling from the impact of the fight.


Turrin said:


> If Nagato gave a shit about collateral damage he wouldn't have immediately turned the fight into a Godzilla Monster battle on top of skyscrapers filled with people.


I'd like to agree but there's no evidence that these skyscrapers are filled with people. If there was, then the manga would've put more emphasis on this. Like I mentioned before, people steered clear of Pain's building. 


Turrin said:


> Nagato was being cautious of Jiraiya, not cautious of destroying Amegakuru.


There's nothing that indicates Nagato wasn't also being cautious of not destroying his own village. Like I mentioned in a previous post, his bonds to the village were strong enough that he would take measures so as to not have to use Tendo.


Turrin said:


> Copy- If Jiraiya beat him that would get in the way of his plans, hence if it came down to it he'd be willing to destroy Amegakuru to prevent that. - Paste


But Jiraiya wasn't going to beat him in Nagato's mind not only because of his cautious approach, but also his arrogance. He said before and during the fight multiple times that he's a god and that Jiraiya has no chance to beat him. You may be right, and you do bring up good points. But at the end of the day, if you look at the matchup, there's no way in hell Jiraiya is winning. Not even SM Naruto could beat all six Paths. If you think about it this way, there's no way Pain was saying that Jiraiya could beat Unrestricted Paths even with full knowledge. It just goes against the whole storyline and there's hardly any evidence supporting it anyways.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2016)

@Equilibrium LOL if I literally show you people failing to their death due to the collateral damage of the summon battle Nagato initiated, you can't than turn around and say people weren't in the area, because their not suppose to be near Pain's Building. I mean that's taking intellectually dishonesty to a whole new level. And by the by, that wasn't Pain's Building anyway. Pain's building has the demonic heads all over it:
Link removed

That Building is nowhere near the buildings that Jiraiya and Pain's summon battle is taking place on:
Link removed

So even that argument, as nonsensical as it is (considering I proved people are in the area) falls flat on it's face.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 12, 2016)

My apologies, I didn't realize they were falling. Regardless, there's a difference between using summons and using a village-destroying jutsu or using the nine-tailed fox to wreak large scale havoc.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2016)

Alive (diseased) Itachi
Strongest he can beat: Naruto (_Pain Arc_) or Sasuke (_Kage Summit Arc_)
Weakest that can defeat him: Sage Jiraiya

Edo Tensei Itachi (peak)
Strongest he can beat: Pain
Weakest that can defeat him: Sage Mode Naruto (_War Arc_)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> My apologies, I didn't realize they were falling. Regardless, there's a difference between using summons and using a village-destroying jutsu or using the nine-tailed fox to wreak large scale havoc.


CT/CST would cause a-lot more damage to Amegakuru than Pain and Jiraiya's summon battle did, but summoning tons of Godzilla-like monsters to rampage and battle atop skyscrapers w/ reckless abandon is still using a village destroying Jutsu; as it still caused tons of collateral damage to the village and villagers.

Now you could make the argument that at a certain point he would start to care about collateral damage, but there is absolutely no evidence of this. At no point during the entire battle was Nagato ever shown or stated to be holding back to avoid destruction to village; in-fact he was the one who initiated the summon duel, no fucks given. So again I ask where is the evidence for Nagato being unwilling to waste Amegakuru if it was necessary to achieve his objectives. The man commited mass genocide of innocent people just for being connected to Hanzo to achieve his objectives, killed his own teacher and father figure to achieve his objectives, was willing to nuke entire countries to achieve his objective, align with the worst criminals imaginable, steal corpses, etc.... I could go on and on. And when Nagato made the statement that Jiraiya would have beaten Pain, no mention from him or anyone else was made about it being because he'd have to hold back in Amegakuru, rather he was standing atop rubble from another location in Amegakuru that he destroyed in the battle w/ Jiraiya. 

So you can't just come up w/ random restrictions and force them onto statements, unless you have evidence, which again I don't see anywhere.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SuperDragonGirl (Jun 12, 2016)

Hmmm maybe 

Strongest to weakest

1. Kaguya
2. Six Paths Naruto & Sasuke
3. Dual Rinne Juubi Madara
4. One Rinne Juubi Madara
5. 8 Gates Might Guy
6. Juubi Obito (form 1 & 2)
7. Juubi
8. Kyuubi
9. Hashirama & Rinne Madara
10. BSM Naruto & CM Sasuke
11. BM Minato
12. BM Naruto
13. EMS Sasuke & KCM Naruto
14. Killer B 
15. War SM Naruto / A
16. Tobirama 
17. Rinne Shari Obito
18. SM Kabuto
19. Deva Path Pain
20. SM Jirayai
21. Minato
22. War Sakura
23. Tsundae
24. Orochimaru
25. Jirayai
26. Kisame / Konan
27. Deidara
28. Hidan

I say Itachi makes it down to 20. I don't a MS user beating Deva Path EMS maybe but not MS.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> @Equilibrium LOL if I literally show you people failing to their death due to the collateral damage of the summon battle Nagato initiated, you can't than turn around and say people weren't in the area, because their not suppose to be near Pain's Building. I mean that's taking intellectually dishonesty to a whole new level. And by the by, that wasn't Pain's Building anyway. Pain's building has the demonic heads all over it:
> Link removed
> 
> That Building is nowhere near the buildings that Jiraiya and Pain's summon battle is taking place on:
> ...




There's a huge difference between accidentally killing a few people and completely nuking the shit out of it like he did with Konoha. He obviously cared for Amegakure to a certain extent, but he cares about Amegakure as a whole, more so than a few individual lives (which are dispensable and fits his "Teaching Pain" idealogy). You can even compare the fact that Pain used many more summons in Konoha than he used against Jiraiya in Amegakure. That's a fact.

Destroying a few buildings and losing a few lives is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than ENTIRELY DESTROYING YOUR VILLAGE and KILLING EVERYONE.

Unless you can't understand that then I don't know what else to say.


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## Turrin (Jun 13, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> There's a huge difference between accidentally killing a few people and completely nuking the shit out of it like he did with Konoha.
> .


I said there was a difference, but I don't see and what I have asked for repeatedly is evidence that Nagato cares about that difference to the extent where he'd be unwilling to nuke the village if it meant his plans failing. Nagato was willing to nuke entire countries to achieve his goals.

I bring up the summoning battle, because if Kishimoto wanted the take away to be that Nagato's actually cared about the lives of the people of Amegakuru, he wouldn't have initiated a summon duel atop skyscraper no fucks given. Also why I bring up him murdering massive amounts of Amegakuru Shinobi to end Hanzo's regime and Nagato being willing to kill Jiriaya. As clearly sentiment, if he even has sentiment towards Ame anymore, doesn't matter when it comes to achieving his goals.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 14, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Yet Jiraiya had the capacity to beat Nagato.
> 
> Hmm...


Because Itachi isn't above Jiraiya, thats all


Hussain said:


> Itachi's level has been made clear throughout the manga. People can wank all they want, overrate his abilities, make excuses...etc etc
> 
> Kishi made it clear that
> itachi is stronger than Oro (Before War Arc came)
> and weaker than Jiraiya.


Itachi is stronger than Nerfed Orochimaru yes, but not Prime Orochimaru, even before the war arc.


> We have seen their stats in the 3rd Databook being extremely close or identical (total stats) with base Jiraiya (SM does not count with the stats). We have seen how the whole thing between SM and MS works several times.


DB stats mean nothing after Part 1. Kekkei Genkai, SM, Hiden abilities aren't included, only basic jutsus are.


> so, yeah, he is on the same level as the Sannin. He was NEVER compared to anyone else in term of power, and I don't see any reason to why we should assume otherwise either.


...


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## Sapherosth (Jun 14, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I said there was a difference, but I don't see and what I have asked for repeatedly is evidence that Nagato cares about that difference to the extent where he'd be unwilling to nuke the village if it meant his plans failing. Nagato was willing to nuke entire countries to achieve his goals.
> 
> I bring up the summoning battle, because if Kishimoto wanted the take away to be that Nagato's actually cared about the lives of the people of Amegakuru, he wouldn't have initiated a summon duel atop skyscraper no fucks given. Also why I bring up him murdering massive amounts of Amegakuru Shinobi to end Hanzo's regime and Nagato being willing to kill Jiriaya. As clearly sentiment, if he even has sentiment towards Ame anymore, doesn't matter when it comes to achieving his goals.




His whole ideology revolved around protecting the weak nations (his own) against the big nations (Leaf). His talk about how the big nation's war is affecting the smaller ones and how he wants others to feel the same pain (big nations) is a HUGE indication that Pain did care for that village, at least cared for it enough to not nuke it.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 14, 2016)

Itachi is far above the sannin , Jiraya is even worse than Oro when it comes to fight the Sharingan not to mention MS .

And P1 statement is still P1 statement , just like Hiruzen beeing the strongest Hokage even stronger than Hashirama , and also I think Itachi said he can at most tie with Jiraya only to protect him 'cause him+Kisame is a neg diff if they fought against anyone of the sannin  . Itachi vs Jiraya is also a low diff and can turn to neg diff depending on the cinrconstums .

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 14, 2016)

Slightly above Itachi: Obito, Nagato, Kabuto, Minato, Tobirama
Itachis "level": Jiraiya, Mu, genjetsu, Onoki

Granted I could easily break down those categories even more as I would say Itachi stands the best chance of beating Minato or Tobirama in the slightly above group(which imo he can't). Genjetsu or Mu depending on certain factors could defeat Itachi


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 14, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Itachi is far above the sannin , Jiraya is even worse than Oro when it comes to fight the Sharingan not to mention MS .
> 
> And P1 statement is still P1 statement , just like Hiruzen beeing the strongest Hokage even stronger than Hashirama , and also I think Itachi said he can at most tie with Jiraya only to protect him 'cause him+Kisame is a neg diff if they fought against anyone of the sannin  . Itachi vs Jiraya is also a low diff and can turn to neg diff depending on the cinrconstums .


Itachi is below the Sannin

Hiruzen statement was disproved when Hashirama was shown as stronger
When was the Jiraiya/Itachi statement disproved?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> When was the Jiraiya/Itachi statement disproved?


Over the course of a 700 chapter manga.

Itachi/Jiraiya statement was made in chapter 143 or someshit. Thats 560 chapters ago. In other words more than 10 years ago. 
If your best argument is to cling to a questionable statement made by a character with questionable motives 10 years ago, in the very early stages of the manga when both characters were hardly developed, then you don't have an argument. It is simple as that.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Over the course of a 700 chapter manga.
> 
> Itachi/Jiraiya statement was made in chapter 143 or someshit. Thats 560 chapters ago. In other words more than 10 years ago.
> If your best argument is to cling to a questionable statement made by a character with questionable motives 10 years ago, in the very early stages of the manga when both characters were hardly developed, then you don't have an argument. It is simple as that.


I dont care when it was made. Statements are statements. Manga is manga. And i do have an argument. It is because you dont that you make excuses for Itachi. And also, that is not why Jiraiya beats him, even though it is valid. Jiraiya beats him because of the abilities he has shown. What did Itachi get in Part 2? Susanoo, which Jiraiya showed a counter to in Part 1 (Yomi Numa), then got SM in Part 2 where he showed Kawazu Naki/Magen: Gamarinsho/Chou: Oodama Rasengan. PS: You are not Kishimoto. You do not get to decide what statements count and which ones don't count.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 14, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I dont care when it was made. Statements are statements. Manga is manga. And i do have an argument. It is because you dont that you make excuses for Itachi. And also, that is not why Jiraiya beats him, even though it is valid. Jiraiya beats him because of the abilities he has shown. What did Itachi get in Part 2? Susanoo, which Jiraiya showed a counter to in Part 1 (Yomi Numa), then got SM in Part 2 where he showed Kawazu Naki/Magen: Gamarinsho/Chou: Oodama Rasengan. PS: You are not Kishimoto. You do not get to decide what statements count and which ones don't count.




And what makes YOU decide which statements count and which don't?


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> And what makes YOU decide which statements count and which don't?



I'm not deciding anything. I see a manga statement and I accept it. I am not ignoring it to support your favourite character. The statement was in the manga before it "wasn't" in the manga (the way you make it seem) so I am choosing to accept it. I see no reason not to. That's like me ignoring the statement that only an Uchiha Sharingan user can break Tsukuyomi just because it occurred in chapter 140 or so. You can say "Tsukuyomi was never countered by non Uchiha", well I can say "Itachi never became stronger than Jiraiya". You have panels to support the former. I have panels to support the latter. So let's just accept the manga as it is rather than going round in circles and _overcomplicating a simple kids' comic_ just so that you can propel your favourite character higher and higher up the power tiers. Why must you take chunks of the manga out as well as make up your own manga chapters, just to make Itachi loook good.

Jiraiya > Itachi by:
Hype (Part 1 Statement)
Portrayal (Ask Pain if you don't believe me)
Feats/Abilities (See the forum consensus in the Jiraiya vs Itachi thread we had recently)
And there is just no way around it.


Can I ask you this: *why is Jiraiya being > Itachi such a problem for you? Just answer me this.*
Being inferior to Jiraiya is nothing for you, or Itachi to be ashamed of.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 14, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I'm not deciding anything. I see a manga statement and I accept it. I am not ignoring it to support your favourite character. The statement was in the manga before it "wasn't" in the manga (the way you make it seem) so I am choosing to accept it. I see no reason not to. That's like me ignoring the statement that only an Uchiha Sharingan user can break Tsukuyomi just because it occurred in chapter 140 or so. You can say "Tsukuyomi was never countered by non Uchiha", well I can say "Itachi never became stronger than Jiraiya". You have panels to support the former. I have panels to support the latter. So let's just accept the manga as it is rather than going round in circles and _overcomplicating a simple kids' comic_ just so that you can propel your favourite character higher and higher up the power tiers. Why must you take chunks of the manga out as well as make up your own manga chapters, just to make Itachi loook good.
> 
> Jiraiya > Itachi by:
> Hype (Part 1 Statement)
> ...




Oh my god, this child.

Me? Over-complicating?  

You're the one who over-complicated the whole Orochimaru statement, when it was clearer than any other statement in the manga. Please, spare me your hypocrisy 


Let me see..... Itachi > Jiraiya by

Hype -> Part 1 statement by Oro and Jiraiya shitting himself at the sight of Amateratsu. Itachi's own statement that no one can beat him without MS. That's hype.

Portrayal -> Itachi demolished Nagato (stronger than Pain) with relative ease and figured out his weakness in 1 panel while it took Jiraiya 1 or two chapter to even work out they have shared vision...

Obito (MAIN VILLAIN AND REAL BOSS BEHIND AKATSUKI) acknowledged that he would have been dead had Itachi known his secret. This is much more impressive than Pain's statement  

Zetsu -> Son of KAGUYA who has lived for CENTURIES acknowledged Itachi's strength and called him invincible.

Kabuto -> Better and stronger SM user than Jiraiya acknowledged that there is no one more suitable to be his Edo tensei than Itachi...than includes all the other edo's (nagato) as well...I doubt he included Madara though, Madara was just the special case.


Let's face it bro....You're clinging to your own twisted version of the manga. Just accept the lord of light (Itachi).

Let me ask you this, why do you think Itachi is weaker than every character?     You obviously don't know ANYTHING about the character at all so you don't even make a fair and accurate judgement.  


Oh yeah...On a side note - Obito only ordered Pain to attack the Leaf AFTER Itachi was dead, not after Jiraiya was dead. :yeahsorry

Your Jiraiya was no threat at all.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 14, 2016)

First of all, answer my question

Can I ask you this: *why is Jiraiya being > Itachi such a problem for you? Just answer me this.*
Being inferior to Jiraiya is nothing for you, or Itachi to be ashamed of.



Sapherosth said:


> Oh my god, this child.


Oh my god, this old man who has less intelligence than me, a 17 year old. Oh no....


> Me? Over-complicating?


A statement was made. You accept it. Simple as.



> You're the one who over-complicated the whole Orochimaru statement, when it was clearer than any other statement in the manga. Please, spare me your hypocrisy


Which hypocrisy?
My argument was never that Nerfed Orochimaru > Itachi
It was that Prime Orochimaru > Itachi

You can bring all the scans where armless Orochimaru admitted inferiority/got defeated
I will just bring the scans where armed Orochimaru was compared to Itachi's superiors (Tobirama/Minato/Jiraiya/Prime Hiruzen) and the scans that prove Kakashi saw Orochimaru (again, when he had his arms) as a superior/more dangerous opponent to Itachi.

I didn't overcomplicate anything. I just told Itachi fans to read the whole manga as opposed to just the bits that suit their arguments fanfictions.



> Hype -> Part 1 statement by Oro and Jiraiya shitting himself at the sight of Amateratsu. Itachi's own statement that no one can beat him without MS. That's hype.


Jiraiya shitted himself? Did he really?



Again, blowing things out of proportion. He saw it, shocked that someone managed to escape his inescapable toad stomach, calmly analysed the flame, told Naruto not to move closer, and then sealed the almighty flames for later study.
Again, making up lies to boost Itachi - how's that working for you so far?


> Portrayal -> Itachi demolished Nagato (stronger than Pain) with relative ease and figured out his weakness in 1 panel while it took Jiraiya 1 or two chapter to even work out they have shared vision...


Pain and Nagato are different opponents. And Itachi did not demolish him. He would not have gotten past CT without the help of two perfect jins. And what demolishing? Stabbing an immobile opponent with Totsuka? Jiraiya did not know Pain. Itachi worked in Akatsuki and was fightign alongside the guy who defeated Pain.


> Obito (MAIN VILLAIN AND REAL BOSS BEHIND AKATSUKI) acknowledged that he would have been dead had Itachi known his secret. This is much more impressive than Pain's statement


So Itachi can defeat Obito in a 1 v 1 fight? Show me how he does it. And bring the scan while you're at it, and go and get the raw, and give it to @Turrin to translate, because manga feats and manga hype dont match up in this case.


> Zetsu -> Son of KAGUYA who has lived for CENTURIES acknowledged Itachi's strength and called him invincible.


Itachi himself disagrees


And Itachi lost the fight so wtf are you talking about?

Lol ... Zetsu that had never seen a Susano until that fight, despite being Madara's lapdog



> Let's face it bro....You're clinging to your own twisted version of the manga. Just accept the lord of light (Itachi).


You are the one saying "lets ignore that statement because it destroys the foundation of my whole argument", yet I am twisting the manga? I don't take out parts of the manga/ignore parts of the manga/twist the manga/write my own manga to strengthen my argument. I just take Kishimoto's version as it is.


> Let me ask you this, why do you think Itachi is weaker than every character?


When did I say he was weaker than every character? Jiraiya and Prime Orochimaru are 2 characters. I guess you could count KN4 Naruto, but I don't know if he is stronger, or just a bad match up for Itachi. TBH, I did say prove Sasori could beat him too ...

Counter-Question: Let me ask you this, why do you think Itachi is stronger than every character?
Be it Nagato, Minato, Jiraiya, Prime Orochimaru, Tobirama: even when the manga is against you, you must say Itachi is better than them all.

Now answer this: *why is Jiraiya being > Itachi such a problem for you? Just answer me this.*
Being inferior to Jiraiya is nothing for you, or Itachi to be ashamed of.



> You obviously don't know ANYTHING about the character at all so you don't even make a fair and accurate judgement.


I know he ran away from Jiraiya. I know Kakashi was confident to engage him in battle, while he couldn't even talk when Orochimaru walked up on him backstage during the preliminaries. I know he lost to Hebi Sasuke, of course, considering the two factors that limited his performance.

Meanwhile, you are giving him the feats of his Edo Self, who had unlimited stamina (using MS didn't harm him, as he doesn't have a human body to harm, meaning he could fight Nagato with more flow), and was immortal (which saved him in his fight against Kabuto).

So maybe it is you who knows nothing. You haven't read the manga, yet you come up in here talking to me all spicy.




Sapherosth said:


> Oh yeah...On a side note - Obito only ordered Pain to attack the Leaf AFTER Itachi was dead, not after Jiraiya was dead. :yeahsorry
> 
> Your Jiraiya was no threat at all.


Go and talk to @Equilibrium139. He can verify why what you said doesn't work here.

My Jiraiya? Dont make it seem as if I hold Jiraiya as close to my heart as you hold Itachi. Only Orochimaru will ever have that place. He was such a cool villain, the most consistent, a powerful, feared and interesting character and - oh, I shouldn't bore you with all the reasons I love Orochimaru's character.


*Spoiler*: _EDIT: Here you go_ 




*Conversation: Jiraiya vs Itachi
*


			
				Equilibrium139 said:
			
		

> Obito sees that he has an opportunity to attack Konoha after Itachi is dead, not Jiraiya:


Jiraiya was never consistently in Konoha. He spent 20 years travelling the world, writing books, gathering intel on Akatsuki, looking for Orochimaru, later trained Naruto, was always in and out of the village, so that is a poor excuse. By your logic, I can say Prime Orochimaru = Minato, as it was implied only he could fight him, and not anyone else. Anyway they are close in power to be honest. In fact, the four times Akatsuki came to Konoha, Jiraiya was not in the village. When Tobi came for Uchiha Clan massacre,, Jiraiya had left Konoha by then and only returned during the Chunin Exams. Before Itachi and Kisame came, they left to go find Tsunade. When Hidan and Kakuzu came, again, Jiraiya was not in the village. He was out hunting intel on Orochimaru. When Pain attacked, well, he was dead lol. 



Anyway, Tobi uses his subordinates (the Akatsuki) to make a move on Konoha. When this happens, intel gets around, Itachi finds out, Itachi stops Tobi.

How did you translate that into Itachi can defeat Jiraiya? By your logic, Tobi (who lost an arm to Foo and Torune), is beating all of Konoha by himself as long as Itachi is not around. How stupid. Then again, coming from you, I'm not surprised. You like to twist things don't you.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I dont care when it was made. Statements are statements. Manga is manga. .



Manga is an organic product. It was ongoing for 16 years. It is subject to change. We've had tons of additional information and developments after that chapter. 



> And also, that is not why Jiraiya beats him, even though it is valid. Jiraiya beats him because of the abilities he has shown. What did Itachi get in Part 2? Susanoo, which Jiraiya showed a counter to in Part 1 (Yomi Numa), then got SM in Part 2 where he showed Kawazu Naki/Magen: Gamarinsho/Chou: Oodama Rasengan.


Its ironic you say "Susano'o" in a condescending tone. Susano'o alone is magnitudes stronger than anything Jiraiya has in his arsenal. Itachi dismanteled Orochimaru's ultimate jutsu within seconds, when he was fully blind and moments away from death while using Susano'O.


> PS: You are not Kishimoto. You do nt get to decide what statements count and which ones don't count.


That goes both ways. You don't get to decide either. 
If there is a statement that doesn't make much sense and if we get shit ton of contradictory evidence, then it surely doesn't hold much weight anymore.

There is a reason why no one believes Hiruzen isn't the strongest Hokage anymore. Actually, that statement about him being the strongest Hokage can't be any further from the truth.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 14, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Itachi is below the Sannin
> 
> Hiruzen statement was disproved when Hashirama was shown as stronger
> When was the Jiraiya/Itachi statement disproved?


1)When Itachi was hown beeing Konoa ally , it's enough to say he was just protecting Jiraya because if they fought , the sannin would be stomped .
2)Oro got trolled two times by Itachi .
3)Itachi's Jutsu shown are far more impressive than anyone of the sannin .

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 14, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> First of all, answer my question
> 
> Can I ask you this: *why is Jiraiya being > Itachi such a problem for you? Just answer me this.*
> Being inferior to Jiraiya is nothing for you, or Itachi to be ashamed of.
> ...






It's a problem because it's false and it is based on false information. 

If a statement was made and you accept it, why won't you accept yours?  Orochimaru flat out stated (IN PAST TENSE) that Itachi was much stronger than he was. That is an undeniable proof that no matter what version of your fanfic Oro consist of, he considers Itachi as his superior. 

Additionally, Orochimaru being "compared" to Itachi's "superiors" doesn't mean shit. Orochimaru compared himself to Hebi Sasuke and considered Sasuke as his superior in terms of genius. Does that make Sasuke > Minato, Tobirama, Hiruzen etc. ?  You cannot seriously use that logic.


And in fact, Jiraiya WAS shitting himself. He was shitting himself wondering how on earth Itachi managed to summon the black flames. Then he proceeded to scold Naruto that Itachi was in a different league and then later on said that it took him EVERYTHING he had just to hold them back like that.  And when did Itachi actually lose the fight? 

What does this tell you?

Also, Zetsu "not knowing about Susano" is absolutely BS. Now THAT is plot because if Kishi revealed that Zetsu knew about Susano beforehand we would have known that Madara also has Susano as well and it would have made the moment less climatic. 


Even if Pain and Nagato are different opponents, it doesn't take away from the fact that Naruto (Who fought PAIN) thought that Nagato was MUCH stronger.

Additionally, I only brought up Obito's statement about Itachi because YOU STARTED USING BS STATEMENTS. You started talking BS that "Pain stated Jiraiya was stronger so he must be stronger than Itachi as well since I can't see Itachi being anywhere near Pain's lvl", which is why I used your own logic against you, but with a stronger character. 


Additionally, Kakashi wasn't "confident" to engage him at all...In fact, he was only there because he had absolutely no choice because his colleagues were in danger. Against Orochimaru he was prepared to fight as well, even though he didn't want to. Additionally, Anko showed no fear towards Orochimaru when they fought at all, so that must mean Anko > Kakashi? 





Anyways, I am done arguing with some misinformed Sanin fanboy who refuses to acknowledge other character's feats just to try and twist the author's percepton of the manga.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 19, 2016)

Sorry for the late replies @Grimmjowsensei @Sapherosth @hbcaptain


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Manga is an organic product. It was ongoing for 16 years. It is subject to change. We've had tons of additional information and developments after that chapter.


Yeah, but not where Itachi vs Jiraiya is concerned. Itachi showed Susanoo, Jiraiya showed Sage Mode/Yomi Numa/Gamabunta.



> Its ironic you say "Susano'o" in a condescending tone.


Is it.


> Susano'o alone is magnitudes stronger than anything Jiraiya has in his arsenal.


Jiraiya has a jutsu that can blow up a mountain so you are wrong.
And he has shown multiple solid counters to it, so again you are wrong.



> Itachi dismanteled Orochimaru's ultimate jutsu within seconds, when he was fully blind and moments away from death while using Susano'O.


Itachi beating Nerfed Orochimaru doesn't mean anything here. You act as if Orochimaru wasn't in a bad position himself.



> That goes both ways. You don't get to decide either.


I;m not deciding. I see the manga and I accept it as it is. You are making excuses not to accept the statement because of favourite character bias.


> If there is a statement that doesn't make much sense and if we get shit ton of contradictory evidence, then it surely doesn't hold much weight anymore.


So Jiraiya > Itachi doesn't make sense? Well, you can wank if you want to.
Jiraiya has shown 3 jutsus that can practically end the battle even while Itachi is in Susano'o.


> There is a reason why no one believes Hiruzen isn't the strongest Hokage anymore. Actually, that statement about him being the strongest Hokage can't be any further from the truth.


And there is no reason why Jiraiya isn't stronger than Itachi. Unless you consider bias/wank a valid reason. Because in my book it's not.

Okay @hbcaptain , onto you now


hbcaptain said:


> 1)When Itachi was hown beeing Konoa ally , it's enough to say he was just protecting Jiraya because if they fought , the sannin would be stomped .


Itachi cannot stomp someone that uses the following jutsu
- Yomi Numa
- Magen: Gamarinsho
- Senpou: Kawazu Naki
- Chou: Oodama Rasengan
Very bad , weak argument, just trolling in fact. What a useless, irrelevant poster.


> 2)Oro got trolled two times by Itachi .


Jiraiya isn't weaker than Nerfed Orochimaru so whats your point?


> 3)Itachi's Jutsu shown are far more impressive than anyone of the sannin .


That's your opinion anyway

JIRAIYA
- has the series 2nd biggest Katon
- has a swamp capable of negging Itachi whether he is in Susanoo or not
- has a Rasengan that can blow up a mountain
- has 3 Bijuu sized summons
- has 2 sound Genjutsus which can bypass Susanoo and K.O. Itachi
TSUNADE
- is immune to Genjutsu via Yin Seal
- trolled Tsukuyomi twice on panel
- showed terrain manipulation abilities which Susanoo users of Itachi level can be attacked from their feet by the use of
- sorta showed a counter to Amaterasu (showed one perfect counter, then 2 other sketchy ones)
- fought a stronger version of Itachi (5 x Edo Rinnegan possessing Madara V3 Susanoo using Mokuton Clone) without getting put in Genjutsu (as well as in the earlier stages f the fight, while Raikage was put in Genjutsu)
OROCHIMARU
- trolled Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu on panel
- has shown abilities that can attack Itachi from underground, bypassing Susanoo/Yata defence
- Suigetsu implied Orochimaru with his arms would be a threat to EMS Sasuke
- was leagues above the same Hebi Sasuke that brought Sick Itahci to his death, whether or not you use the excuse that he was holding back (since you think Orochimaru having his arms changes nothing, why should I take itachi holding back into account?)
- has Edo Tensei, which was called the strongest technique in the world, which along with Manda will destroy Itachi

ITACHI
- has Amaterasu, which failed every time it was used, as @cctr9 showed
- Tsukuyomi was no better
- has Susano, which he barely had the stamina to hold up for long, an ability any Sannin can counter
- has Totsuka, which can only pierce immobilised sitting ducks
- has Genjutsu, which trash like Chiyo and Gai were comfortable with formulating make-shift counters to

@Sapherosth I saw your new sig by the way. Just goes to show how petty and childish you are. Your fantasies change nothing.



Sapherosth said:


> It's a problem because it's false and it is based on false information.


What false information? Itachi didn''t have Susanoo back then? So what? Jiraiya didn't have Sage Mode (which gives him access to 2 sound Genjutsus) or Yomi Numa (which K.O.s Itachi even while he is in Susanoo) back then either,

so tell me, what false information.

And when I said "why is it a problem", i mean just in general, because even if you disregard the statement, Jiraiya still beats Itachi in an IC fight. Why is it a problem for Itachi to lose? Being weaker than Jiraiya is nothing to be ashamed of.



> If a statement was made and you accept it, why won't you accept yours?  Orochimaru flat out stated (IN PAST TENSE) that Itachi was much stronger than he was.


Its not the same thing.

We had portrayal of Jiraiya > Itachi, and only that, soI accept it.

We had portrayal of Orochimaru > Itachi and Itachi > Orochimaru, so I cant take it at face value. He cant be stronger and weaker than one ninja at the same time

Kakashi saw Orochimaru as more dangerous, and he just happened to be Prime when this happened.
He was twice compared to Minato, and just happened to be Prime when this happened.
He was stronger than Jiraiya (who Itachi is weaker than, or at least equal to), and just happened to be Prime when this happened.
He was above Tobirama, and just happened to be Prime when this happened.
His abiltiies that would win him a fight against Itachi are Edo Tensei and Manda. He just happened to be Prime when he could use this (he cant use Kuchiyose: Hebi/Edo Tensei, when he has no arms)

Yet anytime he was portrayed below Itachi, he just happened to be nerfed
Had only 50% use of his arms at Uchiha Hideout
No killing Intent 10 years ago
No arms at all the two times he claimed inferiority
And even better, Sasuke, who defeated a nerfed Orochimaru, on two occasions in the future admitted Orochimaru's defeat was attributed to that

Can you see where I am coming from?
Only a Nerfed Orochimaru was put below Itachi, and all the times he was put above Itachi (in Part 1 and Part 2), he was at full power, so I see no reason why itachi is above prime Orochimaru, just by hype, let alone feats.

I've explained this so many times anyway. I am not choosing what to accept. Did I ever deny the fact Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru? No I did not. I am not choosing anything. I saw in the manga that a Healthy Orochimaru with 100% use of his arms (basically the Orochimaru that Hiruzen faced, fighting at his maximum capability) will defeat Itachi Uchiha (the one we saw Sasuke fight at the Uchiha Hideout, but without the health disadvantage he had, so basically, Part 1 Itachi with Part 2 feats) in a High Difficulty battle. It is a rather simple concept to understand. @LAZLOLAZZING @Isaiah13000 and @HandfullofNaruto all seem to understand this. So why not you?

And the funny thing is this: none of them are Itachi fanboys, but you are, so you can see why your opinion counts for nothing where I am concerned. I choose biasless opinions over biased opinions. And it isnt just an opinion, it is a manga fact. Read the manga from start to finish and you will see.



> That is an undeniable proof that no matter what version of your fanfic Oro consist of, he considers Itachi as his superior.


Resorting to baseless insults I see. How is Prime Orochimaru a fanfic? Did we not see him fight Hiruzen on the lookout tower? Then again, you probably didn't, since you never read the manga. Prime Orochimaru is Hiruzen fight Orochimaru, with his KN4 fight showings added on, abilities which I can prove he had in Part 1, even before then, also able to summon Manda, an ability we never saw him perform because he had no arms in Tsunade Search Arc, and then all the jutsus he showed against Sasuke in forest of death. I think that covers all of Orochimaru's fights.



> Additionally, Orochimaru being "compared" to Itachi's "superiors" doesn't mean shit.


Yes it does. It means everything.


> Orochimaru compared himself to Hebi Sasuke and considered Sasuke as his superior in terms of genius.


Genius is not the same as strength. Shikamaru is smarter than jiraiya. Does that mean Shikamaru can defeat Pain?


> Does that make Sasuke > Minato, Tobirama, Hiruzen etc. ?  You cannot seriously use that logic.


Explained above.

Nice try anyway.

In fact, you ask yourself is Sasuke is better than all those people, and you'll see how stupid it sounds.

Prime Hiruzen/Base Minato slightly > Prime Orochimaru slightly > Jiraiya/Tobirama slightly > Healthy Itachi

And again, Orochimaru's abilities that he would use to beat Itachi are Manda and Edo Tensei, by virtue of common sense. And these are abilities that he can not use if he doesnt have his arms. You need hand seals for them, and he couldnt use any hand seal requiring jutsu between Tsunade Search Arc and War Arc. It was between those arcs that Orochimaru claimed inferiority and lost at Uchiha Hideout. And when he lost 10 years ago, it was not in a fight. He tried to take Itachis body, not to kill him.



> And in fact, Jiraiya WAS shitting himself. He was shitting himself wondering how on earth Itachi managed to summon the black flames.


He was not shitting himself. You are making that up, and anyhow, Itachi still stated myself + backup +  Kisame = Jiraiya so it wouldnt matter even if he was shitting himself.



> Then he proceeded to scold Naruto that Itachi was in a different league


Yes, Itachi > Part 1 Naruto. We already know that.


> and then later on said that it took him EVERYTHING he had just to hold them back like that.


Bring the scan you are referring to here.



> And when did Itachi actually lose the fight?


And when did Prime Orochimaru lose to Itachi in an actual, IC, all out fight? (not the attempted body stealing exchange)

You see how two can play at that game?



> What does this tell you?


Your interpretation of a straightforwards kids' comic tells me nothing except the fact you are desperate for Itachi to be stronger than Kaguya. Kishimoto's narration of the manga tells me that Jiraiya is a subtier above Itachi, and beats him with High Difficulty in an IC fight.



> Also, Zetsu "not knowing about Susano" is absolutely BS. Now THAT is plot because if Kishi revealed that Zetsu knew about Susano beforehand we would have known that Madara also has Susano as well and it would have made the moment less climatic.


Wow, crying plot are you?

Im disregarding that whole  sentence. Its an excuse. Nice try anyway.



> Even if Pain and Nagato are different opponents, it doesn't take away from the fact that Naruto (Who fought PAIN) thought that Nagato was MUCH stronger.


Naruto, who lost to Pain, saw Hinata get molested, then activate KN6 to pressure Pain, then get caught in CT, and then have to have Minato talk no jutsu him into escaping CT in base form somehow, and then somehow land a base Rasengan on Pain in PIS/CIS fight? And Nagato being much stronger means what? Itachi had an Edo body with unlimited stamina, suffering no drawbacks from MS because of his zombie body, and instead of two kunais in his pocket, had two Perfect jinchuriki fighting him - whatever long story short, Itachi while alive gets slammed by Nagato as well as Pain.



> Additionally, I only brought up Obito's statement about Itachi because YOU STARTED USING BS STATEMENTS. You started talking BS that "Pain stated Jiraiya was stronger so he must be stronger than Itachi as well since I can't see Itachi being anywhere near Pain's lvl", which is why I used your own logic against you, but with a stronger character.


I dont use BS arguments.
its not about me seeing Itachi anywhere near Pain level, its about the manga showing me he isnt. Someone that Part 1 Kakashi could engage battle with is not defeating the Six Paths of Pain. And Jiraiya being Pain level does put him above Itachi in an objective standing as well as the fact Jiraiya was shown above in Part 1 by virtue of portrayal, and the fact that even without hype, we can see Jiraiya has the tools to defeat Itachi.


> Additionally, Kakashi wasn't "confident" to engage him at all...In fact, he was only there because he had absolutely no choice because his colleagues were in danger. Against Orochimaru he was prepared to fight as well, even though he didn't want to.



*Spoiler*: _No. He went into battle with him. He didn't have a choice, yes, but he manned up, went into battle, and held his own for a while, even getting complements from Kurenai, so we know Kakashi can fight Itachi even if he cant beat him_ 




















*Spoiler*: _And with Orochimaru, he was ready to fight and initially didn't back down.The difference is he went toe to toe with Itachi for a while, yet pissed his pants when Orochimaru didn't even do nothing, and stated that he could not fight him. He said at first he could compete with him, then later realised how foolish he was for thinking that._ 











So Prime Orochimaru > Healthy Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru (somewhat, in some cases) = Sick Itachi
Manga fully supports this notion, all statements/hypes/portrayals/abilties/feats/logics/circumstances/contexts/scenarios included
But Nice try anyway



> Additionally, Anko showed no fear towards Orochimaru when they fought at all, so that must mean Anko > Kakashi?


Anko was well informed on his abilities, and had a murder-suicide jutsu she thought would work. When it didnt work, she ran to Hiruzen and started crying that she wish MINATO NAMIKAZE (Itachi's superior) was alive to combat PRIME OROCHIMARU.

Nice try anyway.



> Anyways, I am done arguing


Is that a copout?

Okay

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED*
If you can't substantiate an argument for a long debate, then don't enter the ring with Izaya. Got that?


> with some misinformed


I use the manga to backup my debate, you do not. Instead you twist it to bow to Itachi, the idol you worship.


> Sanin fanboy


So reading the manga objectively = I am a fanboy?
Nice try anyway.



> who refuses to acknowledge other character's feats


What feats did Itachi show? Susanoo? Jiraiya has solid counters to it all across the board. It is you who i refusing to acknowledge Jiraiya's feats.



> just to try and twist the author's percepton of the manga.


Kishimoto showed me Jiraiya > Itachi by feats/abilities and hype/portrayal
And he showed me Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru by consistent trends of the contrast of feats/abilities and hype/portrayal in different contexts,, scenarios

I am not a fanboy. I don't have a problem with Prime Orochimaru being weaker than healthy Itachi, but if you want me to believe that, then give me a good reason. But then again, you can't disobey the manga, so you can't give me a reason, but anyway, give me a reason and I will change my opinion. I love Orochimaru as my favourite character, but I would never use my opinion of his character to affect my judgement of his strength.

@HandfullofNaruto @Isaiah13000 and @LAZLOLAZZING are all unbiased (so again, you see why their objective view on this topic means much more than your subjective opinion) people who once believed Healthy Itachi > Prime Orochimaru.

@HandfullofNaruto read my original essay [talks about hype and feats] (which is literal garbage in comparison to my new compilation of arguments), and even disagreed with half of the points I made,
@Isaiah13000 read a recent post i made [talking about hype]
and @LAZLOLAZZING read the new compilation of arguments [talks about just the feats, i think]
and now they all believe the opposite. They were not well informed, and had some misconceptions. I informed them, and educated them on the misconceptions, and they changed their opinions. And everything I said was backed by the manga.

Like i said, its really simple to understand so i dont get why you people are getting all so worked up to the point some of you are making lies and just trying to belittle the Sannins ablities (when literally all of them have trolled Itachi's skillset on panel, and have better jutsus [one can blow up a mountain, one has the "strongest technique in the world" and the other can regenerate from most of the things Itachi has shown etc etc]), so you people can call me a misinformed sannin fanboy even if I am the opposite of that, cos it still doesnt change the canon manga.

You say I twist the manga? no, I read the manga and take it as it is, I dont' make excuse after excuse for the sake of Itachi.

And I will ask one more time: why is Itachi being inferior to any shinobi in this manga such a problem for you? Also, why do you think it is shameful for Itachi to be inferior to a ninja whom he stated he would draw with, even with Kisame and others' help, a ninja whom Pain respected, as well as a ninja who fought a stronger version of Itachi, and also a ninja who was _compared to *four* of Itachi's superiors_ (slightly stronger than Tobirama/Jiraiya, slightly weaker than Base Minato/Prime Hiruzen) as well as being seen as more dangerous than Itachi himself, by Kakashi Hatake, Konoha's strongest Jounin?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 19, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Sorry for the late replies @Grimmjowsensei @Sapherosth @hbcaptain
> 
> Yeah, but not where Itachi vs Jiraiya is concerned. Itachi showed Susanoo, Jiraiya showed Sage Mode/Yomi Numa/Gamabunta.
> 
> ...





Your last paragraph is funny. You want to play the portrayal game? 


The rest of your essay is full of shit, and me and the others have already countered all of it anyways.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 20, 2016)

EDIT: @Grimmowsensei / other Itachi supporters in this thread - I know this is a big ask, but could you counter the parts of my post directed at @Sapherosth on behalf of him since he has backed out of the debate (the pressure and logic was too much for his small mind to handle), as you guys are the Itachi supporters - lol, the guy even deleted the post out of embarrasment, but ive quoted it here so hes not running away from this
___________________________________________________________________



Sapherosth said:


> Your last paragraph is funny.


Okay, that's your opinion. Now answer the question I asked.


> You want to play the portrayal game?


Yeah I do. It's 100% valid, yet you try to steer away from it because you can't counter it. That's what I find funny.



> The rest of your essay is full of shit, and me and the others have already countered all of it anyways.


*Concession Accepted!*
*If you can't counter, just say so. *Anyway If you go to this thread () you'll already see I'm ignoring your arguments from now on. In fact, you're going on block list. _But anyway @Sapherosth its good to know you've joined the Itachi < Orochimaru squad!_

Posting again anyway. I'm not letting people get away with ignoring my arguments:
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sorry for the late replies @Grimmjowsensei @Sapherosth @hbcaptain


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Manga is an organic product. It was ongoing for 16 years. It is subject to change. We've had tons of additional information and developments after that chapter.


Yeah, but not where Itachi vs Jiraiya is concerned. Itachi showed Susanoo, Jiraiya showed Sage Mode/Yomi Numa/Gamabunta.



> Its ironic you say "Susano'o" in a condescending tone.


Is it.


> Susano'o alone is magnitudes stronger than anything Jiraiya has in his arsenal.


Jiraiya has a jutsu that can blow up a mountain so you are wrong.
And he has shown multiple solid counters to it, so again you are wrong.



> Itachi dismanteled Orochimaru's ultimate jutsu within seconds, when he was fully blind and moments away from death while using Susano'O.


Itachi beating Nerfed Orochimaru doesn't mean anything here. You act as if Orochimaru wasn't in a bad position himself.



> That goes both ways. You don't get to decide either.


I;m not deciding. I see the manga and I accept it as it is. You are making excuses not to accept the statement because of favourite character bias.


> If there is a statement that doesn't make much sense and if we get shit ton of contradictory evidence, then it surely doesn't hold much weight anymore.


So Jiraiya > Itachi doesn't make sense? Well, you can wank if you want to.
Jiraiya has shown 3 jutsus that can practically end the battle even while Itachi is in Susano'o.


> There is a reason why no one believes Hiruzen isn't the strongest Hokage anymore. Actually, that statement about him being the strongest Hokage can't be any further from the truth.


And there is no reason why Jiraiya isn't stronger than Itachi. Unless you consider bias/wank a valid reason. Because in my book it's not.

Okay @hbcaptain , onto you now


hbcaptain said:


> 1)When Itachi was hown beeing Konoa ally , it's enough to say he was just protecting Jiraya because if they fought , the sannin would be stomped .


Itachi cannot stomp someone that uses the following jutsu
- Yomi Numa
- Magen: Gamarinsho
- Senpou: Kawazu Naki
- Chou: Oodama Rasengan
Very bad , weak argument, just trolling in fact. What a useless, irrelevant poster.


> 2)Oro got trolled two times by Itachi .


Jiraiya isn't weaker than Nerfed Orochimaru so whats your point?


> 3)Itachi's Jutsu shown are far more impressive than anyone of the sannin .


That's your opinion anyway

JIRAIYA
- has the series 2nd biggest Katon
- has a swamp capable of negging Itachi whether he is in Susanoo or not
- has a Rasengan that can blow up a mountain
- has 3 Bijuu sized summons
- has 2 sound Genjutsus which can bypass Susanoo and K.O. Itachi
TSUNADE
- is immune to Genjutsu via Yin Seal
- trolled Tsukuyomi twice on panel
- showed terrain manipulation abilities which Susanoo users of Itachi level can be attacked from their feet by the use of
- sorta showed a counter to Amaterasu (showed one perfect counter, then 2 other sketchy ones)
- fought a stronger version of Itachi (5 x Edo Rinnegan possessing Madara V3 Susanoo using Mokuton Clone) without getting put in Genjutsu (as well as in the earlier stages f the fight, while Raikage was put in Genjutsu)
OROCHIMARU
- trolled Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu on panel
- has shown abilities that can attack Itachi from underground, bypassing Susanoo/Yata defence
- Suigetsu implied Orochimaru with his arms would be a threat to EMS Sasuke
- was leagues above the same Hebi Sasuke that brought Sick Itahci to his death, whether or not you use the excuse that he was holding back (since you think Orochimaru having his arms changes nothing, why should I take itachi holding back into account?)
- has Edo Tensei, which was called the strongest technique in the world, which along with Manda will destroy Itachi

ITACHI
- has Amaterasu, which failed every time it was used, as @cctr9 showed
- Tsukuyomi was no better
- has Susano, which he barely had the stamina to hold up for long, an ability any Sannin can counter
- has Totsuka, which can only pierce immobilised sitting ducks
- has Genjutsu, which trash like Chiyo and Gai were comfortable with formulating make-shift counters to

@Sapherosth I saw your new sig by the way. Just goes to show how petty and childish you are. Your fantasies change nothing.



Sapherosth said:


> It's a problem because it's false and it is based on false information.


What false information? Itachi didn''t have Susanoo back then? So what? Jiraiya didn't have Sage Mode (which gives him access to 2 sound Genjutsus) or Yomi Numa (which K.O.s Itachi even while he is in Susanoo) back then either,

so tell me, what false information.

And when I said "why is it a problem", i mean just in general, because even if you disregard the statement, Jiraiya still beats Itachi in an IC fight. Why is it a problem for Itachi to lose? Being weaker than Jiraiya is nothing to be ashamed of.



> If a statement was made and you accept it, why won't you accept yours?  Orochimaru flat out stated (IN PAST TENSE) that Itachi was much stronger than he was.


Its not the same thing.

We had portrayal of Jiraiya > Itachi, and only that, soI accept it.

We had portrayal of Orochimaru > Itachi and Itachi > Orochimaru, so I cant take it at face value. He cant be stronger and weaker than one ninja at the same time

Kakashi saw Orochimaru as more dangerous, and he just happened to be Prime when this happened.
He was twice compared to Minato, and just happened to be Prime when this happened.
He was stronger than Jiraiya (who Itachi is weaker than, or at least equal to), and just happened to be Prime when this happened.
He was above Tobirama, and just happened to be Prime when this happened.
His abiltiies that would win him a fight against Itachi are Edo Tensei and Manda. He just happened to be Prime when he could use this (he cant use Kuchiyose: Hebi/Edo Tensei, when he has no arms)

Yet anytime he was portrayed below Itachi, he just happened to be nerfed
Had only 50% use of his arms at Uchiha Hideout
No killing Intent 10 years ago
No arms at all the two times he claimed inferiority
And even better, Sasuke, who defeated a nerfed Orochimaru, on two occasions in the future admitted Orochimaru's defeat was attributed to that

Can you see where I am coming from?
Only a Nerfed Orochimaru was put below Itachi, and all the times he was put above Itachi (in Part 1 and Part 2), he was at full power, so I see no reason why itachi is above prime Orochimaru, just by hype, let alone feats.

I've explained this so many times anyway. I am not choosing what to accept. Did I ever deny the fact Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru? No I did not. I am not choosing anything. I saw in the manga that a Healthy Orochimaru with 100% use of his arms (basically the Orochimaru that Hiruzen faced, fighting at his maximum capability) will defeat Itachi Uchiha (the one we saw Sasuke fight at the Uchiha Hideout, but without the health disadvantage he had, so basically, Part 1 Itachi with Part 2 feats) in a High Difficulty battle. It is a rather simple concept to understand. @LAZLOLAZZING @Isaiah13000 and @HandfullofNaruto all seem to understand this. So why not you?

And the funny thing is this: none of them are Itachi fanboys, but you are, so you can see why your opinion counts for nothing where I am concerned. I choose biasless opinions over biased opinions. And it isnt just an opinion, it is a manga fact. Read the manga from start to finish and you will see.



> That is an undeniable proof that no matter what version of your fanfic Oro consist of, he considers Itachi as his superior.


Resorting to baseless insults I see. How is Prime Orochimaru a fanfic? Did we not see him fight Hiruzen on the lookout tower? Then again, you probably didn't, since you never read the manga. Prime Orochimaru is Hiruzen fight Orochimaru, with his KN4 fight showings added on, abilities which I can prove he had in Part 1, even before then, also able to summon Manda, an ability we never saw him perform because he had no arms in Tsunade Search Arc, and then all the jutsus he showed against Sasuke in forest of death. I think that covers all of Orochimaru's fights.



> Additionally, Orochimaru being "compared" to Itachi's "superiors" doesn't mean shit.


Yes it does. It means everything.


> Orochimaru compared himself to Hebi Sasuke and considered Sasuke as his superior in terms of genius.


Genius is not the same as strength. Shikamaru is smarter than jiraiya. Does that mean Shikamaru can defeat Pain?


> Does that make Sasuke > Minato, Tobirama, Hiruzen etc. ?  You cannot seriously use that logic.


Explained above.

Nice try anyway.

In fact, you ask yourself is Sasuke is better than all those people, and you'll see how stupid it sounds.

Prime Hiruzen/Base Minato slightly > Prime Orochimaru slightly > Jiraiya/Tobirama slightly > Healthy Itachi

And again, Orochimaru's abilities that he would use to beat Itachi are Manda and Edo Tensei, by virtue of common sense. And these are abilities that he can not use if he doesnt have his arms. You need hand seals for them, and he couldnt use any hand seal requiring jutsu between Tsunade Search Arc and War Arc. It was between those arcs that Orochimaru claimed inferiority and lost at Uchiha Hideout. And when he lost 10 years ago, it was not in a fight. He tried to take Itachis body, not to kill him.



> And in fact, Jiraiya WAS shitting himself. He was shitting himself wondering how on earth Itachi managed to summon the black flames.


He was not shitting himself. You are making that up, and anyhow, Itachi still stated myself + backup +  Kisame = Jiraiya so it wouldnt matter even if he was shitting himself.



> Then he proceeded to scold Naruto that Itachi was in a different league


Yes, Itachi > Part 1 Naruto. We already know that.


> and then later on said that it took him EVERYTHING he had just to hold them back like that.


Bring the scan you are referring to here.



> And when did Itachi actually lose the fight?


And when did Prime Orochimaru lose to Itachi in an actual, IC, all out fight? (not the attempted body stealing exchange)

You see how two can play at that game?



> What does this tell you?


Your interpretation of a straightforwards kids' comic tells me nothing except the fact you are desperate for Itachi to be stronger than Kaguya. Kishimoto's narration of the manga tells me that Jiraiya is a subtier above Itachi, and beats him with High Difficulty in an IC fight.



> Also, Zetsu "not knowing about Susano" is absolutely BS. Now THAT is plot because if Kishi revealed that Zetsu knew about Susano beforehand we would have known that Madara also has Susano as well and it would have made the moment less climatic.


Wow, crying plot are you?

Im disregarding that whole  sentence. Its an excuse. Nice try anyway.



> Even if Pain and Nagato are different opponents, it doesn't take away from the fact that Naruto (Who fought PAIN) thought that Nagato was MUCH stronger.


Naruto, who lost to Pain, saw Hinata get molested, then activate KN6 to pressure Pain, then get caught in CT, and then have to have Minato talk no jutsu him into escaping CT in base form somehow, and then somehow land a base Rasengan on Pain in PIS/CIS fight? And Nagato being much stronger means what? Itachi had an Edo body with unlimited stamina, suffering no drawbacks from MS because of his zombie body, and instead of two kunais in his pocket, had two Perfect jinchuriki fighting him - whatever long story short, Itachi while alive gets slammed by Nagato as well as Pain.



> Additionally, I only brought up Obito's statement about Itachi because YOU STARTED USING BS STATEMENTS. You started talking BS that "Pain stated Jiraiya was stronger so he must be stronger than Itachi as well since I can't see Itachi being anywhere near Pain's lvl", which is why I used your own logic against you, but with a stronger character.


I dont use BS arguments.
its not about me seeing Itachi anywhere near Pain level, its about the manga showing me he isnt. Someone that Part 1 Kakashi could engage battle with is not defeating the Six Paths of Pain. And Jiraiya being Pain level does put him above Itachi in an objective standing as well as the fact Jiraiya was shown above in Part 1 by virtue of portrayal, and the fact that even without hype, we can see Jiraiya has the tools to defeat Itachi.


> Additionally, Kakashi wasn't "confident" to engage him at all...In fact, he was only there because he had absolutely no choice because his colleagues were in danger. Against Orochimaru he was prepared to fight as well, even though he didn't want to.



*Spoiler*: _No. He went into battle with him. He didn't have a choice, yes, but he manned up, went into battle, and held his own for a while, even getting complements from Kurenai, so we know Kakashi can fight Itachi even if he cant beat him_ 




















*Spoiler*: _And with Orochimaru, he was ready to fight and initially didn't back down.The difference is he went toe to toe with Itachi for a while, yet pissed his pants when Orochimaru didn't even do nothing, and stated that he could not fight him. He said at first he could compete with him, then later realised how foolish he was for thinking that._ 











So Prime Orochimaru > Healthy Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru (somewhat, in some cases) = Sick Itachi
Manga fully supports this notion, all statements/hypes/portrayals/abilties/feats/logics/circumstances/contexts/scenarios included
But Nice try anyway



> Additionally, Anko showed no fear towards Orochimaru when they fought at all, so that must mean Anko > Kakashi?


Anko was well informed on his abilities, and had a murder-suicide jutsu she thought would work. When it didnt work, she ran to Hiruzen and started crying that she wish MINATO NAMIKAZE (Itachi's superior) was alive to combat PRIME OROCHIMARU.

Nice try anyway.



> Anyways, I am done arguing


Is that a copout?

Okay

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED*
If you can't substantiate an argument for a long debate, then don't enter the ring with Izaya. Got that?


> with some misinformed


I use the manga to backup my debate, you do not. Instead you twist it to bow to Itachi, the idol you worship.


> Sanin fanboy


So reading the manga objectively = I am a fanboy?
Nice try anyway.



> who refuses to acknowledge other character's feats


What feats did Itachi show? Susanoo? Jiraiya has solid counters to it all across the board. It is you who i refusing to acknowledge Jiraiya's feats.



> just to try and twist the author's percepton of the manga.


Kishimoto showed me Jiraiya > Itachi by feats/abilities and hype/portrayal
And he showed me Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru by consistent trends of the contrast of feats/abilities and hype/portrayal in different contexts,, scenarios

I am not a fanboy. I don't have a problem with Prime Orochimaru being weaker than healthy Itachi, but if you want me to believe that, then give me a good reason. But then again, you can't disobey the manga, so you can't give me a reason, but anyway, give me a reason and I will change my opinion. I love Orochimaru as my favourite character, but I would never use my opinion of his character to affect my judgement of his strength.

@HandfullofNaruto @Isaiah13000 and @LAZLOLAZZING are all unbiased (so again, you see why their objective view on this topic means much more than your subjective opinion) people who once believed Healthy Itachi > Prime Orochimaru.

@HandfullofNaruto read my original essay [talks about hype and feats] (which is literal garbage in comparison to my new compilation of arguments), and even disagreed with half of the points I made,
@Isaiah13000 read a recent post i made [talking about hype]
and @LAZLOLAZZING read the new compilation of arguments [talks about just the feats, i think]
and now they all believe the opposite. They were not well informed, and had some misconceptions. I informed them, and educated them on the misconceptions, and they changed their opinions. And everything I said was backed by the manga.

Like i said, its really simple to understand so i dont get why you people are getting all so worked up to the point some of you are making lies and just trying to belittle the Sannins ablities (when literally all of them have trolled Itachi's skillset on panel, and have better jutsus [one can blow up a mountain, one has the "strongest technique in the world" and the other can regenerate from most of the things Itachi has shown etc etc]), so you people can call me a misinformed sannin fanboy even if I am the opposite of that, cos it still doesnt change the canon manga.

You say I twist the manga? no, I read the manga and take it as it is, I dont' make excuse after excuse for the sake of Itachi.

And I will ask one more time: why is Itachi being inferior to any shinobi in this manga such a problem for you? Also, why do you think it is shameful for Itachi to be inferior to a ninja whom he stated he would draw with, even with Kisame and others' help, a ninja whom Pain respected, as well as a ninja who fought a stronger version of Itachi, and also a ninja who was _compared to *four* of Itachi's superiors_ (slightly stronger than Tobirama/Jiraiya, slightly weaker than Base Minato/Prime Hiruzen) as well as being seen as more dangerous than Itachi himself, by Kakashi Hatake, Konoha's strongest Jounin?


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