# Zoro vs Luffy



## giantbiceps (May 17, 2016)

Restrictions: Shown feats; i.e no Asura, no speculative bullshit....
Location: Dressrosa.
Mindset: Zoron is bloodlusted he starts out with his bandana, others are In Character.
PIS/CIS off.

Scenario: Zoron's mind was rewritten by the marines such that he never joined the Strawhats. He's convinced that Luffy had sex with his sister. He tries to cut Luffy's penis off.

Zoro still has his indomitable will, all his stats, moves, etc. He's in no way weaker than he is now.


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Zoron negative diffs

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Beast (May 17, 2016)

The fuck is luffy doing trying to fuck the wild life?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Not even G4 can make him wild enough here

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Does Luffy have access to  G4?
Without Asura/Time Skip power up,  Zoron loses mid/high diff to G4 Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 4


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Does Luffy have access to  G4?
> Without Asura/Time Skip power up,  Zoron loses high diff to G4 Luffy.



So now a restricted Zoro gives G4 Luffy high dif.  Something not even awakened DD could do. 

I've had enough of this guy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> So now a restricted Zoro gives G4 Luffy high dif.  Something not even awakened DD could do.
> 
> I've had enough of this guy.


Mid/high. 
Depends on the difference between G4 and G2/G3.

Zoro may be more equipped to fight G4 than Awakened DD. DD could not hurt G4. I firmly believe that Zoro can.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

Well, if you meant *Zoro*, and speculation isn't allowed, then Luffy arguably mid-diffs since Zoro is featless against guys on his tier/general level.....but if you meant *Zoron*, this shouldn't even be a thread. He makes Trojans out of Luffy.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Zoro is feathers against guys on his tier/general level.....


Don't understand what you mean by this.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Beast (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Don't understand what you mean by this.


He's weak asf


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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Don't understand what you mean by this.


*Featless. Damn autocorrect.


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> So now a restricted Zoro gives G4 Luffy high dif.  Something not even awakened DD could do.
> 
> I've had enough of this guy.


And you just easily neg people when their opinion is not good for you


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Mid/high.
> Depends on the difference between G4 and G2/G3.
> 
> Zoro may be more equipped to fight G4 than Awakened DD. DD could not hurt G4. I firmly believe that Zoro can.


High sounds correct if Zoro can access Ashura


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> And you just easily neg people when their opinion is not good for you



No, i neg someone that thinks Asura is everything when it's literally a pre skip power up just like G2/3 and Sanji basic diable jambe. AND BRINGS IT UP EVERY SINGLE TIME HE POSSIBLY FUCKING CAN.

Oh Asura Zoro this Asura Zoro that... Fucking hell.

Not only is it a pre skip power up aka nothing to their new power ups. But it's a fucking shit one as well.

The way you keep going on about it you'd think he used it against DD and sent him flying across the city or something.


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> No, i neg someone that thinks Asura is everything when it's literally a pre skip power up just like G2/3 and Sanji basic diable jambe. AND BRINGS IT UP EVERY SINGLE TIME HE POSSIBLY FUCKING CAN.
> 
> Oh Asura Zoro this Asura Zoro that... Fucking hell.
> 
> Not only is it a pre skip power up aka nothing to their new power ups. But it's a fucking shit one as well.




Neg power is yours do what you want but it's not nice when I've always been friendly with you in these last 2 month


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## hokageyonkou (May 17, 2016)

G2/g3 luffy cannot defeat Zoro. G4 can, however I assume Zoro will counter it with ashura.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> But it's a fucking shit one as well.


Asura fodderised Kaku. Zoro and Kaku were equal before Asura, but Asura "turned to mist" Kaku's strongest attack and oneshotted him. It's not "a fucking shit" power up. It was far more impressive than Diable Jambe, and comparable to G3.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

hokageyonkou said:


> G2/g3 luffy cannot defeat Zoro. G4 can, however I assume Zoro will counter it with ashura.


I speculate Zoro has new demon forms. We'll see in Wano.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Asura fodderised Kaku. Zoro and Kaku were equal before Asura, but Asura "turned to mist" Kaku's strongest attack and oneshotted him. It's not "a fucking shit" power up. It was far more impressive than Diable Jambe, and comparable to G3.



Shit =/= Weak

And it is shit, post skip.

Zoro will have something else. But a pre time skip power up is not going to be the best move of Oda's favorite character.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Shit =/= Weak
> 
> And it is shit, post skip.
> 
> Zoro will have something else. But a pre time skip power up is not going to be the best move of Oda's favorite character.





Amon Lancelot said:


> I speculate Zoro has new demon forms. We'll see in Wano.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

I recently told someone that you are not on the Asura bandwagon. 

You don't need to tell me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiden34 (May 17, 2016)

Luffy mid-diffs the Zoron.



hokageyonkou said:


> G2/g3 luffy cannot defeat Zoro. G4 can, however I assume Zoro will counter it with ashura.



G2 can blitz Zoro, and G3 can overpower Zoro's sword block (Luffy even scratched Fujitora over his sword block, and we know Fuji >>> Zoro)

G2 / G3 Luffy > Zoro

G4 stomps.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## hokageyonkou (May 17, 2016)

You mean how base hyuzou blocked g2 and got praised by luffy and how roided hyuzou got humiliated by Zoro. 

I doubt g3 can bypass zoros defenses to inflict any significant damage.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

hokageyonkou said:


> G2/g3 luffy cannot defeat Zoro. G4 can, however I assume Zoro will counter it with ashura.



So... G2/3 Luffy loses to Zoro and Asura cancels out G4.

So how the fk is Luffy meant to win? He doesn't? Zoro is stronger? 

Plz... fuck off. 

Literally new realm of Zoro wankery.


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

hokageyonkou said:


> You mean how base hyuzou blocked g2 and got praised by luffy and how roided hyuzou got humiliated by Zoro.
> 
> I doubt g3 can bypass zoros defenses to inflict any significant damage.



I already addressed and crushed this stupid ass idea to the point the first person that brought it up did not bring it up again.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## TheWiggian (May 17, 2016)

G4 Luffy wins with high diff by the nature of G4 and it's drawbacks.

G2/3 doesn't seem like it can put down someone like Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> G4 Luffy wins with high diff by the nature of G4 and it's drawbacks.
> 
> G2/3 doesn't seem like it can put down someone like Zoro.



G3 can put down anyone on Luffy's own level... if it connects... More than once of course.

G2 can hit anyone of Luffy's own level pretty much every time and do damage to people Luffy's own level.

If Luffy can indeed combine them like some assume. Luffy wins with G2/3 alone.

If he cannot however, i my self see it difficult to believe.

If G4 is used it will be Luffy vs DD all over again, but this time, Zoro does not make it to the time limit.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## hokageyonkou (May 17, 2016)

Luffy could barely hit doflamingo with g2, he needed laws distraction to connect red hawk. His g3 was also too slow,dofla just moves out of the way. 

I mean luffy can hold off Zoro with g2 and g3 but the problem is dealing damage to someone like Zoro. For which he needs g4.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> G3 can put down anyone on Luffy's own level... if it connects... More than once of course.
> 
> 1. G2 can hit anyone of Luffy's own level pretty much every time and do damage to people Luffy's own level.
> 
> ...



_1. Hyouzou? Monet? CC? Coliseum fighters? DCJ? Executives? They don't seem like they,re on Luffy's "own" lvl. And they also don't look like being on Zoro's lvl after all. G2 did no real damage on the characters i've listed (just a few exceptions like chambres Red Hawk).

2. So you got no real evidence if he can combine them or not? He did against CC, who he defeated (who definitely wasn't on Luffy's lvl statswise) and against DD (who had no trouble against G2/3 at all). DCJ is the only real example and as shown afterwards he is leagues below the M3, also he decided to go against G3 instead of dodging it and counter these slow moves.

That's the only feats of G2/3 and they don't seem very impressive to me.

3. _

Reactions: Like 2


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> _1. Hyouzou? Monet? CC? Coliseum fighters? DCJ? Executives? They don't seem like they,re on Luffy's "own" lvl. And they also don't look like being on Zoro's lvl after all. G2 did no real damage on the characters i've listed (just a few exceptions like chambres Red Hawk).
> 
> 2. So you got no real evidence if he can combine them or not? He did against CC, who he defeated (who definitely wasn't on Luffy's lvl statswise) and against DD (who had no trouble against G2/3 at all). DCJ is the only real example and as shown afterwards he is leagues below the M3, also he decided to go against G3 instead of dodging it and counter these slow moves.
> 
> ...



So because Luffy did not oneshot them they can not do anything to anyone? Really?

Show me one G3 attack that actually landed on someone that did not wreck them. Show me Luffy's G2 missing someone in the heat of a solid battle when he is serious. 

Luffy has combined them before. That is my proof and the only proof needed.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## hokageyonkou (May 17, 2016)

I means if people llike ceasar and hody can survive multiple  g3 blows, what the hell do u expect from Zoro? 

Lets not pretend Zoro just going to stand there and take these hits. He would dodge, use counter attacks, and u now also have coa as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

hokageyonkou said:


> I means if people llike ceasar and hody can survive multiple  g3 blows, what the hell do u expect from Zoro?
> 
> Lets not pretend Zoro just going to stand there and take these hits. He would dodge, use counter attacks, and u now also have coa as well.



>_> Who says it would be only 3 hits. >_> You're acting like a battle with them has to be over quickly. >_> Tens of blows of not hundreds would be connected both ways.

Zoro is faster than G3, and he hits harder than G2 with named abilities. Which is why i am saying if Luffy cannot combine and does not combine i can't see him winning either.  Even more so as Zoro obviously has multiple G3 level attacks of his own. Maybe even a big G4 one. The G4 one being one that Luffy cannot tank and HAS to avoid... other wise well you know...

But Luffy's CoO and basic movement speed shits on Zoro's so... yea... The chances of Zoro landing a strong hit Imo is around the same as Luffy landing a G3 hit. Other than that they will be trading G2 level blows. The main problem here is that Zoro has that one big G4 level move and he can take more damage coz of his better endurance... As Luffy's increased durability via rubber means shit in front of a swordsmen.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## TheWiggian (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> 1. So because Luffy did not oneshot them they can not do anything to anyone? Really?
> 
> 2. Show me one G3 attack that actually landed on someone that did not wreck them. Show me Luffy's G2 missing someone in the heat of a solid battle when he is serious.
> 
> 3. Luffy has combined them before. That is my proof and the only proof needed.



_1. If he can't one shot weaklings like them and need more than a couple of attacks to knock them out, what is he going to do against someone on his own "real" lvl?

2. Don't remember all fights, but i doubt each of his attacks connect.

3. Where?_

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> _1. If he can't one shot weaklings like them and need more than a couple of attacks to knock them out, what is he going to do against someone on his own "real" lvl?
> 
> 2. Don't remember all fights, but i doubt each of his attacks connect.
> 
> 3. Where?_



He missed most of the time vs those fodder. Other than Hordy... Who just kept taking more drugs. 

Well the G3 attack that did land always knocked the fk out of whoever it hit... other than Fugi... but that's an admiral. 

G2 hit pretty much every time he is serious, and other than DD had great effect as well. 

Vs Moria i belieave. Plz don't make me go look for it. @Amol You have it saved right? D': Post plz. xD

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## TheWiggian (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> He missed most of the time vs those fodder. Other than Hordy... Who just kept taking more drugs.
> 
> Well the G3 attack that did land always knocked the fk out of whoever it hit... other than Fugi... but that's an admiral.
> 
> ...



Ok.

Ok.

Nah Nah don't worry. Iam not really interested anyway.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> I already addressed and crushed this stupid ass idea to the point the first person that brought it up did not bring it up again.


You didn't crush it -_-
It's just that I addressed or am addressing a lot of the grievances if the fanbase in my soon to be "Zoro respect thread". So I decided to just wait until I'm done with that thread.

Facts:
Hyouzou was less than 20 metres from Luffy.
Hyouzou was in Base form.
Luffy was deadly serious and bloodlusted. 
Hyouzou nosold a Jet Pistol from a serious Luffy. 
Hyouzou *reflexively *countered the attack poisoning Luffy in the process.
Luffy called Hyouzou strong, a honour he has awarded to only the Dukes and an Admiral Post TS.

Like I said, I can invite you to the convo in which I'm developing the thread.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> You didn't crush it -_-
> It's just that I addressed or am addressing a lot of the grievances if the fanbase in my soon to be "Zoro respect thread". So I decided to just wait until I'm done with that thread.
> 
> Facts:
> ...



20 meters >>> 2 feet.

Yes, and it was the start of the arc.

Lol fking what? 
No he didn't.
He avoided it because Luffy was 20 meters away, and attacked other fishmen before attacking Hyouzou.
No, he timed the attack and barely avoided it and then countered. It's a simple avoid counter attack. It's basic.
To hype him and the Fishmen pirates up. Also, as i said. He was strong.

As i said last time. Put Zoro in Luffy's place having Zoro air slash other fishmen before attacking Hyouzou and see the same thing happen. Likewise. Put Luffy in Zoro's position and see Luffy hawk gatling that guys face in. 

You did not mention this "feat" anywhere after i owned you. So clearly it brought something home.

My guess is, you fought that feat was untouchable and no one could argue against it. Then you had someone do just that, so you did not bring it up anymore.

But just to make it clear, the only reason no one else argued you about it is because they simply do not care enough about new posters and their wanking.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> But Luffy's CoO and basic movement speed shits on Zoro's so... yea... The chances of Zoro landing a strong hit Imo is around the same as Luffy landing a G3 hit.


COO? No
Movement Speed? Yes

Zoro has insane attack and reaction speed. He dodged Kuma's pad canons and lasers *Pre TS.* Luffy needed COO and a time skip to dodge said lasers. You don't accept the Hyouzou feat, but even discounting that, vs Ryuma; Franky and Co could not even see when Zoro and Ryuma traded blows. He blitzed Kuma, someone who can teleport. 
Against the kraken, he made 7 slashes (1 horizontal 6 vertical) instantly. In the Anime, Usopp and Co said he didn't even draw his swords.
Sanji was compared to a normal fishman.
ZorI blitzed an elite Shark fishman, to the point that the other fishmen were dumbfounded that he could be faster than a fishman underwater.

Against Hyouzou he blitzed him. Bisected his swords horizontally and vertically. 16 slashes so fast that Hyouzou not only didn't see them, he didn't even know that they happened.

Luffy used Jet pistol + COA to one shot a Pacifista. Zoro did same with nameless Santoryuu. 

Base Hyouzou no sold a jet pistol.

Monster Hyouzou with 》》》Endurance and durability got oneshotted by Rengoku Onigiri.

Zoro matched a hardened gatling from Luffy with a nameless slash. (In PH, when they were falling on a bed of icicles.) 

1080 PC > Grizzly Magnum.
ISDS should be a G4 attack. Comparable to Kong Gun IMO.
He can spam his mountain busting slashes. 

He can infuse COA into his air slashes.

I used feats. Should I use portrayal, cause it ain't gonna be pretty.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> 20 meters >>> 2 feet.
> 
> Yes, and it was the start of the arc.
> 
> ...


He didn't avoid it though.
I'll go get the scan.
Luffy used Jet pistol thrice.
Edit: @Juvia here:


Amon Lancelot said:


> Next is the Hyouzou feat.
> Sanji getting his infamous nosebleed
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 3


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Luffy vs Zoro is a very hard victory for Luffy


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Just because G4 > Asura
Gotta get new feats from Zolo soon in anycase

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> >_> Who says it would be only 3 hits. >_> You're acting like a battle with them has to be over quickly. >_> Tens of blows of not hundreds would be connected both ways.
> 
> Zoro is faster than G3, and he hits harder than G2 with named abilities. Which is why i am saying if Luffy cannot combine and does not combine i can't see him winning either.  Even more so as Zoro obviously has multiple G3 level attacks of his own. Maybe even a big G4 one. The G4 one being one that Luffy cannot tank and HAS to avoid... other wise well you know...
> 
> But Luffy's CoO and basic movement speed shits on Zoro's so... yea... The chances of Zoro landing a strong hit Imo is around the same as Luffy landing a G3 hit. Other than that they will be trading G2 level blows. The main problem here is that Zoro has that one big G4 level move and he can take more damage coz of his better endurance... As Luffy's increased durability via rubber means shit in front of a swordsmen.



You do know that G4 shitted on a cutting attack right?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> You did not mention this "feat" anywhere after i owned you. So clearly it brought something home.
> 
> My guess is, you fought that feat was untouchable and no one could argue against it. Then you had someone do just that, so you did not bring it up anymore.


Like I said I felt it wasn't worth it. You didn't see it the way I did, and I planned on creating a thread to discuss these and other feats, so let's wait until I put up the thread. 

It'll be along wait though, so if you want I can invite you to a convo in which I'm compiling the content if you're interested that is.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> COO? No
> Movement Speed? Yes
> 
> Zoro has insane attack and reaction speed. He dodged Kuma's pad canons and lasers *Pre TS.* Luffy needed COO and a time skip to dodge said lasers. You don't accept the Hyouzou feat, but even discounting that, vs Ryuma; Franky and Co could not even see when Zoro and Ryuma traded blows. He blitzed Kuma, someone who can teleport.
> ...



Which was impressive... and to show that they M3 are not helpless. >_> Luffy could have done the same as could Sanji.

As the the fodder saying they cannot see Zoro's blades move, idc. Do you know how hard it is to see a moving blade? I can't see a moving blade irl >_> THAT'S HOW HARD IT IS!

1080 PC IS AOE! It does not hold the same impact value of Grizzly Magnum. >_> Grizzly Magnum would shatter Pica Golem into pieces. >_> So no, that is just your opinion. >_>

Lol...  Hyouzou did not even dodge? So wtf is up with all the attack speed shit... that just means that Hyouzou can tank a single G2 hit. 

You mistake a basic G2 punch to a named attack.

It's like a normal single sword swing from Zoro...

Are you saying that Zoro could oneshot Hyouzou with a single sword swing from 20 feet away?? Coz i bet otherwise.

But i'm done for tonight.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> You do know that G4 shitted on a cutting attack right?


From someone who is not Zoro. It's irrelevant, unless

Doflamingo's > Zoro in attack lethality/potency
Doflamingo's COA > Zoro's 
Which you'll have to prove.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> You do know that G4 shitted on a cutting attack right?



I did not mention G4 in that post other than to say Zoro likely has a G4 level attack... o_O

Reactions: Like 1


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Doffy > Luffy > Zoro
Small gaps

G4 Luffy >>>
High gap for now

Actually Luffy can mid diff either Doffy or unrestricted Zoro for now unfortunately

But Zoro might have a G4 too foreshadowed

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Of course G4 is gonna end quickly so he might end up losing


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Luffy could have done the same as could Sanji.


Prove this.
They didn't. That feat is Zoro's and his alone. I don't say Sanji can Sky walk because Zoro can do I? I really hate granting of feats to Luffy/Sanji just because Zoro can.

Luffy didn't replicate the feat (dodging the lasers at least) until after the time skip. That too with COO. 

Zoro has always had great reaction speed.

Vs Hachi, he dodged his spinning blades, despite it looking like he got cut up. He has a named attack for dodging FFS. "Tora nagashi"; _Streaming Wolf Blades._ 

Please don't discredit his feats.

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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> COO? No
> Movement Speed? Yes


Based on what?Luffy has the better CoO feats and people have hyped up his Haki.They didn't do that for Zoro's.



> Zoro has insane attack and reaction speed. He dodged Kuma's pad canons and lasers *Pre TS.* Luffy needed COO and a time skip to dodge said lasers. You don't accept the Hyouzou feat, but even discounting that, vs Ryuma; Franky and Co could not even see when Zoro and Ryuma traded blows. He blitzed Kuma, someone who can teleport.


Are you fucking comparing pre skip Zoro's speed to G2? 


> Against the kraken, he made 7 slashes (1 horizontal 6 vertical) instantly. In the Anime, Usopp and Co said he didn't even draw his swords.


Why did you bring up the anime?


> Sanji was compared to a normal fishman.
> ZorI blitzed an elite Shark fishman, to the point that the other fishmen were dumbfounded that he could be faster than a fishman underwater.


Luffy intercepted freaking OD Hody underwater.That feat >>>>> whatever Zoro did.



> Against Hyouzou he blitzed him. Bisected his swords horizontally and vertically. 16 slashes so fast that Hyouzou not only didn't see them, he didn't even know that they happened.


So?Luffy was blitzing Hody underwater and avoided an attack while in G3 in a really bad position for him.



> Luffy used Jet pistol + COA to one shot a Pacifista. Zoro did same with nameless Santoryuu.


Zoro used Santoryuu which is his most heavy attack sword style.Luffy didn't use such an attack




> Base Hyouzou no sold a jet pistol.


Why are you bringing the Hyozou crap?Base Luffy was fighting against a legend like Chinjao physically and he almost wrecked OD Hody with a couple of hits and that was a simple kick.He also caved in Caesar's face.



> Monster Hyouzou with 》》》Endurance and durability got oneshotted by Rengoku Onigiri.


Luffy almost one shotted Hody who had again transformed with a Red Hawk while being underwater,weakening the attack severely.Hody had to take countless pills at once in order to get up.



> Zoro matched a hardened gatling from Luffy with a nameless slash. (In PH, when they were falling on a bed of icicles.)


Eh?What kind of comparison is that? 



> 1080 PC > Grizzly Magnum.


No.Luffy sent a person flying across a damn island with that attack.He also wrecked Pica's whole face.


> ISDS should be a G4 attack. Comparable to Kong Gun IMO.He can spam his mountain busting slashes


More like comparable to Elephant Gatling which Luffy was spamming to something much bigger than Pica's golem.




> He can infuse COA into his air slashes


.

So?




> I used feats. Should I use portrayal, cause it ain't gonna be pretty.



What portrayal?If Luffy was always as serious as Zoro,things would have favored him severely.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Prove this.
> They didn't. That feat is Zoro's and his alone. I don't say Sanji can Sky walk because Zoro can do I? I really hate granting of feats to Luffy/Sanji just because Zoro can.
> 
> Luffy didn't replicate the feat (dodging the lasers at least) until after the time skip. That too with COO.
> ...



So Luffy the speedster of the group would get hit by all of them with Luffy unable to do a thing riiiight. >_> No, Luffy would use Soru to get out of the way of all of the pads and then use it again to get up to Kuma and punch him in the face, Sanji i really don't know... not really good at debating for Sanji coz i've never done it.

I leave this to White Hawk.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Grizzly Magnum would shatter Pica Golem into pieces. >_> So no, that is just your opinion. >_>


Grizzly Magnum only blew off the head. Didn't even shatter it. Pica found it and reattached it later. GM shattering the golem when it failed to shatter the head is baseless. 

1080 PC on the other hand, sliced of half of the torso.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> From someone who is not Zoro. It's irrelevant, unless
> 
> Doflamingo's > Zoro in attack lethality/potency
> Doflamingo's COA > Zoro's
> Which you'll have to prove.



Doflamingo is > Zoro.His strings are > Zoro's cutting attacks.His Haki is > Zoro's

Are you fucking kidding me?What kind of wank is this?Doflamingo was shitting on Law and he didn't even use hardening against Sanji,that's how damn good his Haki is.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Are you fucking comparing pre skip Zoro's speed to G2?


Don't quote me if you're not gonna debate with facts. Counter my points or good day.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Don't quote me if you're not gonna debate with facts. Counter my points or good day.


I just countered every crappy point you made.With facts as you want.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> .His strings are > Zoro's cutting attacks.His Haki is > Zoro's


Prove the two above.


White Hawk said:


> Doflamingo was shitting on Law and he didn't even use hardening against Sanji,that's how damn good his Haki is.


He got cut and bled while grabbing Law's non hardened sword. Some good Haki there. :

Sanji < Vergo《 Zoro. He's irrelevant.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 3


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

Also freaking elephant gun sent something as big as the Kraken flying.Underwater

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Prove the two above.
> 
> He got cut and bled while grabbing Law's non hardened sword. Some good Haki there. :
> 
> Sanji < Vergo《 Zoro. He's irrelevant.



Prove the two above?His strings were shitting on massive meteors,they were cutting shit from kilometers worth of distance,he cut Oars' leg like nothing,your favorite character couldn't do shit to Birdcage and awakening is > that shit.

His Haki?His Haki could stop Law's slashes which completely got past Vergo's and Vergo has Haki at the very least comparable to Zoro.He could clash equally with Luffy and Luffy's Haki > Zoro's


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

G4 Luffy > G4 Zoro >>> Doflamingo > Ashura Zoro >> G2/G3 Luffy = Current feats Zoro

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## hokageyonkou (May 17, 2016)

People saying luffy taking hody underwater better than Zoro. Yeah while in a bubble with air to breathe.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> o wtf is up with all the attack speed shit...


It's was a jet pistol, quite a fast attack from Luffy. Hyouzou was fast enough to react and poison Luffy, in Base.

Monster Hyouzou with vastly greater stats couldn't even see Zoro's slashes. He made 16, without Hyouzou being cognizant of it. Zoro blitzed someone(Monster Hyouzou) 》》》than someone(Base Hyouzou) who reacted to a Jet Pistol.



Juvia. said:


> You mistake a basic G2 punch to a named attack.


Jet pistol is a named attack, and a decent one. When the Strawhats first faced a a Pacifista, Zoro used 600 PC, Sanji used Diable Jambe Mouton shot, and Luffy used Jet Pistol. It was very decent Pre TS. Same attack he used to oneshotted Harudjin IIRC. Red Hawk is the upgraded Jet Pistol. It's a very decent attack.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

hokageyonkou said:


> People saying luffy taking hody underwater better than Zoro. Yeah while in a bubble with air to breathe.


His attacks were weakened.A lot.Also certainly Zoro could move more freely than Luffy did in a small bubble with the risk at getting killed instantly if he went out of the bubble.


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Don't quote me if you're not gonna debate with facts. Counter my points or good day.




I'm waiting.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

hokageyonkou said:


> People saying luffy taking hody underwater better than Zoro. Yeah while in a bubble with air to breathe.


Zoro vs Hody:

*Spoiler*: __ 









Zoro one shots with a nameless Ittoryuu slashes without even using his bandana. 




It is revealed Hody was truly knocked out. He'd lost consciousness, and required one of his fodeer fishmen to feed him an energy steroid. Zoro neg diffed Luffy's future opponent, while having to hold his breath.




This was a neg diff.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

I guess I win.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Are you saying that Zoro could oneshot Hyouzou with a single sword swing from 20 feet away?? Coz i bet otherwise.


Yes I am. 
Under immense gravity, a single sword swing from bandanaless Zoro was enough to push back Fujitora, despite having the TS force heavily nerfed by said gravity.

Zoro also did more damage than a hardened gatling with a single sword slash in PH as well.

He can also hakify these air slashes.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Mr. Good vibes (May 17, 2016)

This thread is entertaining. We have the wankers for each respective character here all dukeing it out.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Based on what?Luffy has the better CoO feats and people have hyped up his Haki.They didn't do that for Zoro's


What feats?

Luffy may very well be > Zoro in COO, but person said he "shits" on him, which was my bone of contention. 

Who has hyped up Luffy's Haki? COO specifically, and not Haki in general.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Why did you bring up the anime?


Not sure if the feat happened on manga. I watched it in the Anime recently...

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Based on what?Luffy has the better CoO feats and people have hyped up his Haki.They didn't do that for Zoro's.
> 
> Zoro has insane attack and reaction speed. He dodged Kuma's pad canons and lasers *Pre TS.* Luffy needed COO and a time skip to dodge said lasers. You don't accept the Hyouzou feat, but even discounting that, vs Ryuma; Franky and Co could not even see when Zoro and Ryuma traded blows. He blitzed Kuma, someone who can teleport.
> Are you fucking comparing pre skip Zoro's speed to G2?
> ...


Please edit this post. Your replies are part of my original quote, so I can't quote you to counter them.



White Hawk said:


> I guess I win.


Like I said, edit the post I can't quote you to counter your replies.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> This thread is entertaining. We have the wankers for each respective character here all dukeing it out.


This section was dead af just few days ago
I'm having fun too

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Please edit this post. Your replies are part of my original quote, so I can't quote you to counter them.
> 
> 
> Like I said, edit the post I can't quote you to counter your replies.


Done.Fuck these new boards


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

multi quote is dead


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy intercepted freaking OD Hody underwater.That feat >>>>> whatever Zoro did.


Zoro blitzed base Hody underwater and holding his breath, and oneshotted him with a nameless Ittoryuu slash.

Zoro neg diffed Hody.

Base Hyouzou nosold a jet pistol, and *reflexively* reacted to it, countering and poisoning Luffy in the process. Luffy even called him "strong" for that feat.

Luffy "drew" against Hyouzou.

Base Hyouzou > Base Hody, unless nameless Ittoryuu slash > G2 Jet pistol in attack speed and lethality.

Zoro neg diffed "Monster Hyouzou".
He legit blitzed him, something Luffy failed to do to Base Hody.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Luffy wins high diff or so.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> So?Luffy was blitzing Hody underwater and avoided an attack while in G3 in a really bad position for him.


Zoro was blitzing monster Hyouzou like there's no tomorrow. Something Luffy failed to do to Base Hyouzou.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Zoro used Santoryuu which is his most heavy attack sword style.Luffy didn't use such an attack


Jet pistol + COA = Nameless Santoryuu from bandanaless Zoro? :
And this is supposed to be good for Luffy?



White Hawk said:


> Why are you bringing the Hyozou crap?Base Luffy was fighting against a legend like Chinjao physically and he almost wrecked OD Hody with a couple of hits and that was a simple kick.He also caved in Caesar's face.


It's not crappie,  just cause you dislike it. Zoro never fought them. So we don't know how he'd have performed. Both Luffy and Zoro faced Hody/Hyouzou in their different forms respectively. So I'll use the comparison.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy almost one shotted Hody who had again transformed with a Red Hawk while being underwater,weakening the attack severely.Hody had to take countless pills at once in order to get up.


Luffy mid/high diffed Monster Hody.
Zoro neg diffed Monster Hyouzou.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Eh?What kind of comparison is that?


A legitimate one, it's somewhere in PH. I'll post it later if I find the scans. Don't plan on looking unless you dobut it though.

Nameless Ittoryuu slash from bandanaless Zoro > Hardened Gatling from Luffy.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> No.Luffy sent a person flying across a damn island with that attack.He also wrecked Pica's whole face.


When they were compared on panel, Luffy blew any the head.
Zoro cut off half of the torso. And 1080 PC > GM? Sure. :

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Dellinger (May 17, 2016)

Oh my God can't you quote the whole damn post?


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> More like comparable to Elephant Gatling which Luffy was spamming to something much bigger than Pica's golem.


OBD has EGG as 2.32 Mega tons or thereabouts. ISDS is calc'ed at 11.5 megatons. Massive difference.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> What portrayal?If Luffy was always as serious as Zoro,things would have favored him severely.


Serious bloodlusted Luffy "drawing" against Base Hyouzou.
Serious Zoro fodderising Monster Hyouzou.
Casual (bandanaless) Zoro fodderising Base Hody.
Serious bloodlusted Luffy mid/high diffing Monster Hody.

Luffy "losing" to Monet.
Zoro sodomising Monet.

Zoro willing to tango with Fuji after watching Luffy get his ass handed to him. Mind you, Zoro came out unscathed from an off panel battle with Fujitora.

Seems like clear cut portrayal to me.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Beast (May 17, 2016)

Can some order these zoro power ups?
From the weakest 2 strongest.
Don't think I can keep up with the grandmaster.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> So now a restricted Zoro gives G4 Luffy high dif.  Something not even awakened DD could do.
> 
> I've had enough of this guy.



Severely hurt DD with awakening beat G4 Luffy. That's way more than giving high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## giantbiceps (May 17, 2016)

Intense

Reactions: Like 2


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Oh my God can't you quote the whole damn post?


I'm responding to different sections, and I'm on my phone, so it's difficult for me to be quoting all in one post,  etc.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Can some order these zoro power ups?
> From the weakest 2 strongest.
> Don't think I can keep up with the grandmaster.


Don't worry if I'm working on his respect thread.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> As the the fodder saying they cannot see Zoro's blades move, idc.


Franky and Co didn't even know Zoro and Ryuma traded blows. That's how fast his attack speed was. Don't really think he's "fodder"

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> So Luffy the speedster of the group would get hit by all of them with Luffy unable to do a thing riiiight. >_>


I already said Luffy has better movement speed than Zoro. However, *never *once has he been implied to have better reaction speed. 
Against Hachi, everyone thought Zoro had been slashed to pieces, but Zoro dodged all his blades.

Your point would be valid only if Luffy has better reaction speed than Zoro. Which has never been shown.

Luffy very well maybe unable to do anything.



Juvia. said:


> Luffy unable to do a thing riiiight. >_> No, Luffy would use Soru to get out of the way of all of the pads and then use it again to get up to Kuma and punch him in the face,


You know those canons were hyped up to be ~ Lightspeed right. 
You know Kuma can teleport right.
You know Zoro actually dodged Kuma's lasers which are lightspeed. 

When Luffy was introduced post skip, Oda highlighted Luffy dodging Pacifista lasers(possibly with the use of COO). I don't see the point, if he could already do it pre skip.

No doubt Luffy can dodge those canons now, but nothing implies he could do it then. Especially with how him dodging Pacifista lasers was highlighted on his post skip introduction.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Also freaking elephant gun sent something as big as the Kraken flying.Underwater


Freaking nameless Ittoryuu slash pushed back an Admiral, under extreme gravity as well. Last I checked, Luffy needed Elephant Gun to do it, and not while handicapped by Gravity.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> your favorite character couldn't do shit to Birdcage and awakening is > that shit.


Prove that.
Fujitora couldn't cut birdcage as well.
It very well maybe have been indestructible, or regenerated if cut.

Awakening got broken through by a headbutt from Luffy. Nothing indicates birdcage could be broken through, especially as it was used as a plot device.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> His strings were shitting on massive meteors,they were cutting shit from kilometers worth of distance,he cut Oars' leg like nothing


Are you saying that Zoro could not do the same?
If he can, they're irrelevant. If he can't, prove it.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Vergo has Haki at the very least comparable to Zoro.He could clash equally with Luffy and Luffy's Haki > Zoro's


Vergo has Haki comparable to Pica(both lost to mountain busters).
Prove Luffy's COA > Zoro's COA.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Dellinger (May 18, 2016)

Quote the whole post and then I'll reply.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Finalbeta (May 18, 2016)

giantbiceps said:


> Intense


Daily more and more

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Quote the whole post and then I'll reply.


Can't be bothered. Don't reply if you don't want to.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Raiden34 (May 18, 2016)

hokageyonkou said:


> G2/g3 luffy cannot defeat Zoro. G4 can, however I assume Zoro will counter it with ashura.



G2 can blitz Zoro, and G3 can overpower Zoro's sword block (Luffy even scracthed Fujitora over it, and we know Fuji >>> Zoro)

G2 / G3 Luffy > Zoro

G4 stomps.





Amon Lancelot said:


> Freaking nameless Ittoryuu slash pushed back an Admiral, under extreme gravity as well. Last I checked, Luffy needed Elephant Gun to do it, and not while handicapped by Gravity.


Big difference = Zoro was getting stomped by Fuji's gravity he just saved his own ass by with it

Luffy casually used G3 and scarred Fuji's cheek over his sword block...

Reactions: Like 1


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## hokageyonkou (May 18, 2016)

G3 didn't do shit to fujitora.

Reactions: Like 1


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## giantbiceps (May 18, 2016)



Reactions: Like 2


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Fuji >>> Zoro


Bullshit.
While under extreme gravity, Zoro was able to push Fujitora back, with a nameless Ittoryyu slash. If Fuji was even equal to Zoro in physical strength, the slash heavily nerfed by his extreme gravity, will have been unable to do jack.
This supports Zoro >>> Fuji at least in raw strength.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> G2 can blitz Zoro


Bullshit.
Zoro was reacting to Kuma's pad canons and lasers, which are faster than G2.


Erkan12 said:


> G2 / G3 Luffy > Zoro


Zoro > G2/G3 Luffy


Erkan12 said:


> Big difference = Zoro was getting stomped by Fuji's gravity he just saved his own ass by with it


Zoro overpowered extreme vertical gravity, just going off the depth of the hole(tens of metres) the gravitational force was thousands of times greater than what was used to restrain Law.
Zoro still overpowered said extreme gravity, and pushed back Fujitora with a nameless Ittoryuu slash, all while without his bandanna.

Fujitora called the attack brutal/ferocious. Guy didn't say Jack about Luffy's Elephant Pistol.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Etherborn (May 18, 2016)

Why would Luffy ever be deadly serious or bloodlusted against three people who he thinks are fodder? Do you think he hits as hard as he can against every random assailant he sees? He'd be killing people left and right.


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## Raiden34 (May 18, 2016)

hokageyonkou said:


> G3 didn't do shit to fujitora.


Right.
Then what the hell happened Fuji's left cheek ?




Transcendent Samurai said:


> Why would Luffy ever be deadly serious or bloodlusted against three people who he thinks are fodder? Do you think he hits as hard as he can against every random assailant he sees? He'd be killing people left and right.


True, Luffy is a jobber, Zoro is not. People forgetting that (mostly Zorotards) and then shows some jobber moment of Luffy and compares to one of Zoro's fights and says ''hey look this is why Zoro = Luffy''

We know the real difference between them when Luffy is serious, which is a solid one tier.



Amon Lancelot said:


> This supports Zoro >>> Fuji at least in raw strength.







Amon Lancelot said:


> Fujitora called the attack brutal/ferocious. Guy didn't say Jack about Luffy's Elephant Pistol.





This is why Zorotards should leave every One Piece public forums on the earth... You guys should make your own Zorofan site and talk there how awesome the Zoron really is.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## hokageyonkou (May 18, 2016)

Lol that little scratch that vanished the following chapter. Shit Fuji didn't even bleed. Might as well say Pica managed to hurt Zoro.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 18, 2016)

Sabo got a couple scratches and didn't bleed, but people use it as definitive evidence that he was getting his ass kicked. So Luffy's attack means something as well.

As for Zoron >>> Fuji in strength; that's just comical.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Finalbeta (May 18, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Sabo got a couple scratches and didn't bleed, but people use it as definitive evidence that he was getting his ass kicked. So Luffy's attack means something as well.
> 
> As for Zoron >>> Fuji in strength; that's just comical.


Fuji > Sabo >>>>>>> Zolon

Reactions: Creative 1 | Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Why would Luffy ever be deadly serious or bloodlusted against three people who he thinks are fodder? Do you think he hits as hard as he can against every random assailant he sees? He'd be killing people left and right.


Sanji getting his infamous nosebleed


Luffy is dead serious, even adjusts his hat.


Notice how the distance isn't much. Less than 20 metres, closer to ten for the net to reach the strawhats from where it is.

Luffy using jet Pistol


Sanji's life was in danger, and the fishmen were being dicks. I didn't say Luffy was going all out, but saying he wasn't serious is wrong. He was angry, Sanji's life was in danger, and they pissed him off.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> that's just comical.


Why, feats support my statement. What do you have to counter it?

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Etherborn (May 18, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:
			
		

> Sanji's life was in danger, and the fishmen were being dicks. I didn't say Luffy was going all out, but saying he wasn't serious is wrong. He was angry, Sanji's life was in danger, and they pissed him off.



Ok? The Strawhats are practically in danger 24/7. This has never caused Luffy to go on killing sprees before. He just isn't that brutal, even when he's pissed off. Say what you want about Luffy's feats, but we know he can crush Pacifistas with a single punch, so unless he thinks that every fodder fishman can withstand as much force as a Pacifista, it's self evident that he wouldn't hit as hard as he can, even using something as relatively light as jet pistol, on someone he doesn't think can feasibly survive that much blunt trauma. Hyozo is fodder to G2 Luffy; he was just on a level of fodder higher than the other two maggots that Luffy hit. Had Luffy known that beforehand, they would have all most likely been knocked out, since he probably would have adjusted the strength he used accordingly on the third punch.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Jackalinthebox (May 18, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Why, feats support my statement. What do you have to counter it?


So you think Zoro is a good deal physically stronger than the likes of Sabo, Doflamingo, and Luffy?


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## Shanks (May 18, 2016)

This thread is dumb

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Etherborn (May 18, 2016)

Josh said:


> This thread is dumb



I know right? Zoro doesn't have a sister, that we know of.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> unless he thinks that every fodder fishman can withstand as much force as a Pacifista, it's self evident that he wouldn't hit as hard as he can, even using something as relatively light as jet pistol, on someone he doesn't think can feasibly survive that much blunt trauma.


This is all just speculation. I've already explained why Luffy would not hold back on his jet pistol. It'd be out of character for him to do so. Fishmen may very well have Durability > Pacifista. You don't know what Luffy thought of them.


Transcendent Samurai said:


> Hyozo is fodder to G2 Luffy;


Luffy finding out he's been poisoned. Didn't even realise it prior. Luffy hyping up base Hyouzou. Calling him strong.

Manga >>>> Your biased opinion.



Transcendent Samurai said:


> Had Luffy known that beforehand, they would have all most likely been knocked out, since he probably would have adjusted the strength he used accordingly on the third punch.


Baseless speculation.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> So you think Zoro is a good deal physically stronger than the likes of Sabo, Doflamingo, and Luffy?



Why Not?
I only compared Zoro to Fuji. Under gravity thousands of times greater than Law's, Zoro was able to  muster enough physical strength to overcome said extreme gravity, and push back Fujitora a metre, with Fujitora even callling it brutal. This indicates Zoro >>> Fuuji, which is where my opinion comes from.
I don't believe because A > B, then A > B in all stats. That's dumb.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Jackalinthebox (May 18, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Why Not?
> I only compared Zoro to Fuji. Under gravity thousands of times greater than Law's, Zoro was able to  muster enough physical strength to overcome said extreme gravity, and push back Fujitora a metre, with Fujitora even callling it brutal. This indicates Zoro >>> Fuuji, which is where my opinion comes from.
> I don't believe because A > B, then A > B in all stats. That's dumb.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. Answer me this though; obviously Fuji beats Zoro, but what difficulty do you think he would need to do so? I'm curious.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 18, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Answer me this though; obviously Fuji beats Zoro, but what difficulty do you think he would need to do so? I'm curious.


By current feats or speculation allowed?
By current feats and portrayal, I don't see Fuji defeating Zoro lower than mid diff.
I speculate an All out Zoro may be able to push Fuji to high/very high diff.
In my fanficiton Zoro defeats Fuji extreme to very high diff.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Etherborn (May 18, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> This is all just speculation. I've already explained why Luffy would not hold back on his jet pistol. It'd be out of character for him to do so. Fishmen may very well have Durability > Pacifista. You don't know what Luffy thought of them.



It's common sense. Start of series Luffy was no diffing fodder fishman in Arlong Park, while the entire Strawhat crew was needed to take down a Pacifista in Sabaody. Fodder fishmen having greater durability than Pacifistas is complete and utter nonsense and you most likely know that. So no, Luffy would never use as much strength against fodder fishmen as he would against Pacifistas, because they would undoubtedly die.

Another example: this is Luffy using more strength than he should against Tashigi (in Smoker's body) because he thinks it's really Smoker, and is therefore semi serious.


And yet later in the arc, Tashigi blocks an attack from Zoro more successfully than Hyozo did with Luffy. Zoro even comments that she has no will to fight.


Notice how neither Luffy or Zoro were disconcerted that their attacks got blocked. It's because neither were trying that hard, since both thought they'd be attacking fodder. 

Logic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veltpunch (May 18, 2016)

Come on man. Zoron >>>> Fuji >> Sabo > Luffy. Non-debatable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jackalinthebox (May 19, 2016)

Only a matter of time before the great lord Zoron reveals his Jagan and starts solo'ing the Admirals.


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## giantbiceps (May 19, 2016)

Only a matter of time before the great lord Zoron reveals his Jagan and starts solo'ing the WORLD.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Start of series Luffy was no diffing fodder fishman in Arlong Park, while the entire Strawhat crew was needed to take down a Pacifista in Sabaody. Fodder fishmen having greater durability than Pacifistas is complete and utter nonsense and you most likely know that.


Implying that all fodder are equal. 

This means East Blue human fodder, = New World human fodder?
That's "complete and utter nonsense"


Luffy didn't just use jet pistol on Pacifista, he infused COA into it.
Luffy hasn't been shown to pull his punches, unless it's specifically stated. Your reasoning of Luffy pulling his punches is baseless speculation. This is directly countered by Luffy calling Hyouzou strong for tanking his jet pistol. He wouldn't have done that if he was pulling his punches.
Baring Hyouzou, I don't believe the other fishmen had durability > Pacifista, but your reasoning for that is just plain stupid.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Come on man. Zoron >>>> Fuji >> Sabo > Luffy. Non-debatable.


I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic.
I said Zoro >>> Fuji in raw strength.
It is based on this:





Conclusion: Zoro is vastly greater than Fuji in raw strength, as he was able to push Fuji back with a nameless flying slash, while being under extreme gravity.

I have no idea,, how Sabo and Luffy compare to Fuji in raw strength.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Notice how neither Luffy or Zoro were disconcerted that their attacks got blocked. It's because neither were trying that hard, since both thought they'd be attacking fodder.
> 
> Logic.


I disagree. Both weren't serious then. They weren't attacking people they percieved as enemies. The fishman case was very different. You do have a point, about the power Luffy uts in, changing based on seriousness, but Luffy was deadly serious against Hyouzou.
Luffy even further complimented Hyouzou. Luffy wouldn't have done it, if he wasn't serious against Hyouzou.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

The attack speed of EGG is faster than any attack speed feat Zoro has. Infact it's X times faster.

That's a G3 attack.

Hawk gatling the G2 equivalent is much much faster than that.

Just going to bring that up. Not going to respond to any replies. 

In fact i'm going on my PS4 to play some Dragon Age. ^^/ Bye.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Finalbeta (May 19, 2016)

Zoro is surely weaker than Fuji for now but things gonna change soon


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## Veltpunch (May 19, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic.
> I said Zoro >>> Fuji in raw strength.
> It is based on this:
> 
> ...


Idk about Zoro, but I'm *very* serious about Zoron.


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## giantbiceps (May 19, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic.
> I said Zoro >>> Fuji in raw strength.
> It is based on this:
> 
> ...


We are talking about Zoron here

Reactions: Like 2


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## Finalbeta (May 19, 2016)

giantbiceps said:


> We are talking about Zoron here


Zoron is Goku level tho


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Idk about Zoro, but I'm *very* serious about Zoron.


Who's Zoron?

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Zoro is surely weaker than Fuji for now but things gonna change soon


I was talking only about brute strength, not overall combat ability.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Finalbeta (May 19, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I was talking only about brute strength, not overall combat ability.


Oh well gravity DF helps a bit so. .


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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> .



Troll post? It's the fking truth.

Luffy's EGG is calced way beyond the attack speed that Zoro offers. 

Sorry if i used a calc against you. But you love using them to help you. ^^/

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Finalbeta (May 19, 2016)

We are all friends in here guys


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Troll post? It's the fking truth.
> 
> Luffy's EGG is calced way beyond the attack speed that Zoro offers.
> 
> Sorry if i used a calc against you. But you love using them to help you. ^^/


What's the attack speed of EGG? I only remember the DC being calculated.

Zoro already proved against Hyouzou, that his attack speed >>> Luffy's

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> the attack speed that Zoro offers.


What exactly is the attack speed that Zoro offers?

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> What's the attack speed of EGG? I only remember the DC being calculated.
> 
> Zoro already proved against Hyouzou, that his attack speed >>> Luffy's



The attack speed is so far the fastest calc of an attack. The DC was caled, as was the speed. But fk if i'm going to look up shit ass calcs that were only invented in the first place to match people up against other verses. >_>

No.. he really fking did not.

Oh look guys, i will use this feat to say that Zoro is > Luffy in attack speed, but will ignore the others feats that prove other wise coz fuck you.

Not like it matters anyways because the logic behind the feat is wrong. 

Get real.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Oh look guys, i will use this feat to say that Zoro is > Luffy in attack speed, but will ignore the others feats that prove other wise coz fuck you.


I'm not ignoring anything. EGG has X attack speed. You don't know what Zoro's attack speed say Z is.
Yet you claim X > Z? 

You should get real.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I'm not ignoring anything. EGG has X attack speed. Yo don't know what Zoro's attack speed say Z is.
> Yet you claim X > Z?
> 
> You should get real.



>_> Emm... last i checked a fking good attack speed feat beats someone that does not have one.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 19, 2016)

All that matters here is the fact that Luffy walks out of this fight with his penis intact. Zoro on the other hand; well, he gets his head punched off his shoulders.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> >_> Emm... last i checked a fking good attack speed feat beats someone that does not have one.


Zoro has better, they just haven't being calc'ed yet. 
Blitzing Kuma, vs Hyouzou, vs The Kraken, blitzing Hody, etc.So no, it is not a case of Zoro lacking feats, but him lacking quantified feats.

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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Zoro has better, they just haven't being calc'ed yet.
> Blitzing Kuma, vs Hyouzou, vs The Kraken, blitzing Hody, etc.So no, it is not a case of Zoro lacking feats, but him lacking quantified feats.



Luffy blized a stronger version of Hordy while underwater which is a DFs weakness. 

And he did not fucking blitz Kuma. >_> He just got a damn hit in. >_>

None of those will ever get calced. Why? Coz they are not fking impressive. >_>


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## Finalbeta (May 19, 2016)

giantbiceps said:


> Only a matter of time before the great lord Zoron reveals his Jagan and starts solo'ing the WORLD.


Zolon'ing

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Finalbeta (May 19, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Who's Zoron?


Fanfictional Zoro

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> And he did not fucking blitz Kuma. >_> He just got a damn hit in. >_>


He did, Kuma couldn't react. He literally blitzed him.


Juvia. said:


> Luffy blized a stronger version of Hordy while underwater which is a DFs weakness.


irrelevant, we don't know if Zoro couldn't do the same.
Hyouzou reacted to a jet pistol from a serious Luffy.
Monster Hyouzou, who's >>>>>>> Base Hyouzou couldn't react to a nameless attack from Zoro.
In fact, Zoro bisected his swords horizontally and vertically, before Hyouzou could even notice.

Zoro blitzed Monster Hyouzou >>>>>>>>> Base Hyouzou, who Luffy couldn't blitz.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 19, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> None of those will ever get calced. Why? Coz they are not fking impressive. >_>


Not really, It's because they aren't quantifiable. We don't have a speed for Hody/Hyouzou to calculate Luffy/Zoro.

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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

Ok, i've looked up the so called. "Blitz" and it's complete and utter BS.

Zoro and Hyouzou were fighting for a time. Hyouzou was keeping up with Zoro just fine, even though he could not dodge Luffy's G2 attack even though Luffy attacked two other fishmen beforehand while also being 20 meters away.

The so called "feat" in question is this.



Hyouzou jumps at Zoro saying he wants to cut Zoro up.



Zoro reacts to the attack, as Hyouzou literally shouted. "HEY I AM COMING TO CUT YOU UP!"

And in a single attack sliced through all of Hyouzou's blades.



There was no fking blitz. >_> Zoro legit just fking reacted to Hyouzou charge and cut through his swords with pure cutting power which is what Zoro is known for. >_> The surprised look on Hyouzou's face is because Zoro cut through all of his swords in a single attack. >_> Not because he got fking blitzed... 

No blitz, no speed feat. NOTHING!

In the anime it showed what i was saying before, multiple attacks been traded. But the anime is notorious for making things longer than they actually were in the manga.

In the manga it was a single damn attack. >_> Which showed Zoro reacting to and then cutting through Hyouzou's blades.


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## Finalbeta (May 19, 2016)

Lol Juvia. How much did it take


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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Lol Juvia. How much did it take



How much did what take?


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## Finalbeta (May 19, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> How much did what take?


Finding scans  + writing post


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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Finding scans  + writing post



Like 2 minutes. >_> 

I'm actually good at doing that... I'm just too lazy.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 19, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Luffy blized a stronger version of Hordy while underwater which is a DFs weakness.
> 
> And he did not fucking blitz Kuma. >_> He just got a damn hit in. >_>
> 
> None of those will ever get calced. Why? Coz they are not fking impressive. >_>


He thinks Zoro would give very-high diff to Fuji. His and our opinions are obviously extremely different.


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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> He thinks Zoro would give very-high diff to Fuji. His and our opinions are obviously extremely different.



The worst thing i've seen from him is this. 

> I say that Luffy a DF user blitzed Hordy underwater. 

> He says "Irrelevant, we don't know if Zoro couldn't do the same."

Yet the fking guy keeps bringing up the Kuma incident saying. "Zoro did this, Zoro did that."

Well i reply to him with this.

*Irrelevant, we don't know if Luffy couldn't do the same.*


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## Finalbeta (May 19, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Like 2 minutes. >_>
> 
> I'm actually good at doing that... I'm just too lazy.


Lol 2 freakin minutes 
what are u


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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Lol 2 freakin minutes
> what are u



Says the guy posting in every section. xD 

I say the same to you. ^^/


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## Yuki (May 19, 2016)

You know what i just noticed?

The Amon guy didn't once post a link or pic of the Zoro vs Hyouzou feat. >_> 

Not even once even though he'd brought it up in like every single thread he's been in. He's shown feats for a lot of other things. But not about that.  

And this is the guy that literally asks for scans every chance he can get.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Ok, i've looked up the so called. "Blitz" and it's complete and utter BS.
> 
> Zoro and Hyouzou were fighting for a time. Hyouzou was keeping up with Zoro just fine, even though he could not dodge Luffy's G2 attack even though Luffy attacked two other fishmen beforehand while also being 20 meters away.
> 
> ...


I will give an in depth reply later on, but for now let me say this.
Zoro bisected Hyouzou's 8 blades horizontally and vertically.
That's 16 slashes.
Zoro made 16 cuts(with a nameless attack to boot), so fast that Hyouzou *DID NOT SEE* them. Hyouzou, who when he was hit by a jet pistol, was fast enough to react and posion Luffy, was not even able to see Zoro bisecting his swords. How's that not a blitz.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I will give an in depth reply later on, but for now let me say this.
> Zoro bisected Hyouzou's 8 blades horizontally and vertically.
> That's 16 slashes.
> Zoro made 16 cuts(with a nameless attack to boot), so fast that Hyouzou *DID NOT SEE* them. Hyouzou, who when he was hit by a jet pistol, was fast enough to react and posion Luffy, was not even able to see Zoro bisecting his swords. How's that not a blitz.



No it's not 16 slash's.

It's fking one, Oda always shows us when more than one attack is going down by showing multiple movements or impacts in the same panel. Hyouzou was shocked to see his swords fall to bits after the clash. As for the horizontally and vertically. It's just that Zoro destroyed his swords so much they literally fell to bits. That's all.

It was the fight ending clash.

Every single Zoro fight ends the same way. With one single attack.

Also If you want to see real reaction feats, look up Luffy dodging Mihawks attacks. That shits on anything Zoro has done even post skip.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (May 20, 2016)

Zoro is the goat, just came here to say that

Reactions: Like 2


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 20, 2016)

Luffy bled out against Hody jones and needed blood donations even when using haki, zoro kills him. 

Zoro wins Very High Diff. He only needs one or two good hits and luffy would slowly bleed out while this endurance monster (who's endurance is btw>Luffy's as shown in thriller bark) takes the Win.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> It's fking one, Oda always shows us when more than one attack is going down by showing multiple movements or impacts in the same panel. Hyouzou was shocked to see his swords fall to bits after the clash. As for the horizontally and vertically. It's just that Zoro destroyed his swords so much they literally fell to bits. That's all.


His sword wasn't fallling to bits. It was bisected cleanly horizontally and vertically. If it was falling to bits, it would have shattered. Like vs Hachi.

I'll reply with scans to illustrate what I'm saying later, but I'm too busy now to start looking, then editing, etc. Gimme till tomorrow please.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> Zoro is the goat, just came here to say that


What does goat mean? :/

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Finalbeta (May 20, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> What does goat mean? :/


He's da best

Reactions: Like 1


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## jjjjjbbbbnnnnnn (May 20, 2016)

ZORON SMASH PUNY LUFFY

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> His sword wasn't fallling to bits. It was bisected cleanly horizontally and vertically. If it was falling to bits, it would have shattered. Like vs Hachi.
> 
> I'll reply with scans to illustrate what I'm saying later, but I'm too busy now to start looking, then editing, etc. Gimme till tomorrow please.



It was a single damn attack.

Do you see multiple attacks? Or do you them just standing there after a damn clash.

I'll give you a hint, it's the latter.

Zoro has always and will always end every fight with one single attack.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> The worst thing i've seen from him is this.
> 
> > I say that Luffy a DF user blitzed Hordy underwater.
> 
> ...


How about this, considering Zoro blitzed base Hyouzou underwater, with the fishmen commenting on how he moves faster than a fishman underwater, there is nothing that indicates Zoro couldn't blitz monster Hody.

Kuma on the other hand was clearly different. Zoro dodged his pad canons, and lasers IIRC, considering Luffy was introduced post skip, by highlighting how he could dodge the Pacifista lasers, it won't make sense for him to have been able to do  it pre skip.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> He thinks Zoro would give very-high diff to Fuji. His and our opinions are obviously extremely different.


I said by current feats Zoro gives Fuji at the very least mid diff.
I speculate an all out Zoro can push Fuji to high/very high diff.

All my posts so far, have been about current feats Zoro.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Finalbeta (May 20, 2016)

Zoro will surpass Fuji in few weaks, unfortunately it means years in our time

But mid diff sounds good for now


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> It was a single damn attack.
> 
> Do you see multiple attacks? Or do you them just standing there after a damn clash.
> 
> ...


Ok, I'll show you this:


It may be a single attack, but that does not in anyway eliminate the possibility of the attack possessing multiple cuts.

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## Beast (May 20, 2016)

Maybe he used Ashura to get that many cuts in one attack.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Maybe he used Ashura to get that many cuts in one attack.


Common, that's reaching. 
It was IMO, to clearly portray that Zoro was so many leagues above Hyouzou, that he culd bisect all of Hyouzou's swords horizontally and vertically without Hyouzou knowing.



			
				Roronoa Zoro said:
			
		

> You want to kill me? You couldn't even kill my boredom.



Hyouzou was fodder to Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Ok, I'll show you this:
> 
> 
> It may be a single attack, but that does not in anyway eliminate the possibility of the attack possessing multiple cuts.



Yes, just like Luffy's hawk gatling.

You cannot compare a single attack with multiple hits to an attack with only one.

Luffy's EGG landed like fking 20 hits every frame. That's more than 7 cuts. And that's a damn G3 attack...

Also, i'd just like to point out that Zoro did not even cut all of Hyouzou's swords.



> Still had one or two to continue fighting. Maybe Zoro used the same move as he used vs the Kraken. 



Amon Lancelot said:


> How about this, considering Zoro blitzed base Hyouzou underwater, with the fishmen commenting on how he moves faster than a fishman underwater, there is nothing that indicates Zoro couldn't blitz monster Hody.
> 
> Kuma on the other hand was clearly different. Zoro dodged his pad canons, and lasers IIRC, considering Luffy was introduced post skip, by highlighting how he could dodge the Pacifista lasers, it won't make sense for him to have been able to do  it pre skip.



What? How to fk is blitzing base Hordy proving that Zoro can blitz monster Hordy. >_>

No, you can't just give people fking feats like that. >_>

I don't care if a fking fodder fishman says Zoro moves faster than a Fishman.

Monster Hordy is not just a fking normal Fishman... It's Hordy <<< Drugged Hordy <<< Monster Hordy.

You don't scale up the fking... 

No, Luffy was highlighted because he used Haki. >_> Idc if Zoro managed to avoid a couple of the pad cannons. >_> Dodging fking Mihawk is far fking better even if he wasn't bloodlusted and going for the stomp...

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Maybe Zoro used the same move as he used vs the Kraken.


It's an Ougi(Secret technique), Oda would have named it if it were, furthermore IIRC all Zoro's named attacks, have been named.


Juvia. said:


> Also, i'd just like to point out that Zoro did not even cut all of Hyouzou's swords.
> 
> 
> 
> > Still had one or two to continue fighting. Maybe Zoro used the same move as he used vs the Kraken.



I thought he cut all. That's what happened in the Anime.

Edit: In the Anime(haven't yet gotten to where they fight in the manga), Hyouzou picked up new swords, so Zoro did cut all of them. Kindlly link me to the chapter please.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> It's an Ougi(Secret technique), Oda would have named it if it were.
> 
> 
> I thought he cut all. That's what happened in the Anime.
> ...



He did? Maybe, but that's not in the manga. In the manga he just has swords the next time we see him after Zoro cut them. Not 8 either.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 20, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I said by current feats Zoro gives Fuji at the very least mid diff.
> I speculate an all out Zoro can push Fuji to extreme diff.
> 
> All my posts so far, have been about current feats Zoro.


Maybe Lord Zoron should be the captain of the SH's. Luffy can't even give Doffy extreme-diff, let alone Fuji.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Dodging fking Mihawk is far fking better even if he wasn't bloodlusted and going for the stomp...


I'm a Mihawk fan, but I don't believe that Mihawk  has greater attack speed than Kuma. (His pad canons, are generated by reflecting atmosphere at light speed, and he shot out lasers which logically move at lightspeed which Zoro dodged).

Considering Oda's physics, Mihawk *may *have higher attack speed than Kuma, but nothing indicates the attacks he used on Luffy were faster than Kuma's pad canons.



Juvia. said:


> What? How to fk is blitzing base Hordy proving that Zoro can blitz monster Hordy. >_>
> 
> No, you can't just give people fking feats like that. >_>
> 
> ...


I didn't say :


> Zoro can blitz Monster Hody


 I said: 


Amon Lancelot said:


> there is nothing that indicates Zoro couldn't blitz monster Hody.


Massive difference. Ididn't grant Zoro any fucking feats. ;giogio



Juvia. said:


> No, Luffy was highlighted because he used Haki. >_> Idc


When Zoro used Tatsumaki, it was highlighted how he cut trough steel like fruit, with his air slashes.
Zoro's upgraded Tatsumaki:


It's the same way Luffy was highlighted dodging the Pacifista canons. 

There's no point to any of this, if they could do them Pre TS.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Finalbeta (May 20, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Maybe Lord Zoron should be the captain of the SH's. Luffy can't even give Doffy extreme-diff, let alone Fuji.


Zolon is already as strong as in EoS ya know


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## Dunno (May 20, 2016)

With current feats (which of course includes the fact that Zoro has performed all of his feats without going close to all-out.) it could go either way. When more feats are revealed, it could tip either way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

>_> He reflects things at the speed of light, it does not mean they fking travel at the damn speed of light. >_> The fact fact Zoro could avoid them proves anything light speed about it false. >_>



Why the fk did you bring up that Zoro feat.  it has legit nothing to do with anything. >_>

Luffy dodged it easily calling it way to slow to hit him. You think he could say the same about Kizaru? Of course not. >_> Those lasers are not even close to as fast as Kizaru's because he are coming from a fodder PX. >_>

Both Kid and Law dodged a PX lasers.





Luffy dodged it pre skip in base.





Brook, Franky and Ussop were shown avoiding it as well.



The M3 together were avoiding lots of them at once.



Also, as you see in the previous pic, the PX was charging up another hit.



The M3 together attack the PX at the same time which none of them getting there before the other. BEFORE the PX can get the lasers off.

After that the lasers were continuously interrupted by the SHs until more show up.

Enough people dodged or at least managed to avoid the lasers pre skip to show they were too damn slow. >_>


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Maybe Lord Zoron should be the captain of the SH's. Luffy can't even give Doffy extreme-diff, let alone Fuji.


Sorry, was meant to be high/very high.

Zoro pushing Fuji to extreme diff/winning is my fanfiction.

But I believe Zoro grew significantly more than Luffy during the Timeskip

*Spoiler*: __ 




IMO:

At Sabaody Archipelago, Zoro was on Luffy's level. He could push Luffy to a very high/extreme diff fight.  
Here's why:

*Spoiler*: __ 




Zoro was also portrayed as a top/stronger Supernova pre-TS.

He was casually introduced as a Supernova directly alongside Luffy, compared to Kid and Killer who were introduced separately.

He was given more focus in front of Urouge, Hawkins, Bonney, Apoo and Capone:


Even Apoo who had just clashed with Kid called him a beast.

Oda separated Luffy and Zoro from the others by having them be the last to enter together:


Portrayed as one of the two people on the island crazy enough to heavily injure/kill a Celestial Dragon, the only other being Luffy:


Is nowhere to be seen while the other second in-commands are fighting, showing that his relationship to Luffy is different to that of the other right-hands:


Luffy and Sanji must use their EL power-ups to match Zoro's 1080 PC which is still weaker than his stronger close-ranged slashes:


Asura is directly paralleled next to G3:


Even on Thriller Bark, Zoro showed that he's more than capable of carrying his captain's burden:


I personally would not put Luffy a level above Saboady Zoro, especially since Zoro's Base attacks were on par with/stronger than G2 Luffy's while Asura was on par with G3 attacks.




2. Mihawk is a upper top tier.(Top 4 strongest characters, Gorosei and Kong excluded)
3. Rayleigh is a lower top tier. (Top 10-20 strongest characters)
4. Rayleigh can't push Mihawk past upper mid/lower high diff.
5. Zoro is >= Luffy in resolve and willpower( If you don't accept this, let's just say they're comparable)
6. Zoro and Luffy have similar growth rates.​
Mihawk is the Zenith of swordsmanship, Zoro's fighting style. He was the best possible s=teacheer for Zoro, while Rayleigh wasn't for Luffy.
Rayleigh could:

Teach Luffy Haki,
Give him general pointers on combat based from his experience (strategy, tactics,etc)
Rayleigh could not:

Teach Luffy more about devil fruits eg Awakening
Teach Luffy about brawling(H2H) due to being a swordsman
On the other hand, Mihawk could:

Teach Zoro swordsmanship, and help him improve his technique
Teach Zoro Haki
Give him general pointers on combat based from his experience (strategy, tactics,etc)
Spar with Zoro to improve him
Motivate Zoro more(His life ambition was in front of him, and Zoro would become cognizant of the difference between him and Mihawk, which considering Zoro's character, would only force him to train more.
Mihawk could teach Zoro everything he needed to learn, and was stronger than Rayleigh, and at least as experienced.
Furthermore, Luffy only had 18 months with Rayleigh, while Zoro had 24 months with Mihawk.

The way I see it, if two Rayleighs trained Zoro and Luffy  for the same amount of time, Zoro would have grown significantly more than Luffy, not to talk of Mihawk who is Rayleigh's superior and trained Zoro for longer.


All the above make more believe, that Zoro grew much more than Luffy during the Time Skip.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

The main character growing less than anyone during the time skip is pure fanfiction and BS.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> >_> He reflects things at the speed of light, it does not mean they fking travel at the damn speed of light. >_> The fact fact Zoro could avoid them proves anything light speed about it false. >_>



If he reflects air at the speed of light, drag and gravity are not enough to reduce the velocity to 99% of the speed of light over such short distances.



Juvia. said:


> Why the fk did you bring up that Zoro feat.it has legit nothing to do with anything. >_>



To Illustrate how Luffy dodging the lasers was highlighted, the same way Zoro cutting through steel with air slashes was.




Juvia. said:


> Those lasers are not even close to as fast as Kizaru's because he are coming from a fodder PX. >_>



I don't understand Light always travels at the Speed of Light. A laser from Kixzaru is no faster than a laser from a Pacifista. Even Oda could not screw up this badly



Juvia. said:


> Both Kid and Law dodged a PX lasers.







Only shows Law dodging it. And we know Law can teleport, doesn't prove he has the reaction speed to doge it.



Juvia. said:


> >_> He reflects things at the speed of light, it does not mean they fking travel at the damn speed of light. >_> The fact fact Zoro could avoid them proves anything light speed about it false. >_>
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you link me the chapter, I want to reread it. It's possible they got blasted away, dodged before it fired (aim dodging how people dodge bullets IRL, etc). \It's possible they actually dodged it as well, in which case I'll back dwn on the argument of the Pacifista lasers.



However, I disagree with this:



Juvia. said:


> The fact fact Zoro could avoid them proves anything light speed about it false. >_>



Not true. Zoro, could very well have relativistic reactions. It's not like Oda gives a damn about our calculations and power scaling. I mean Akainu's magma is at least a 100 times hotter than real magma. 


Kuma is not the character to lie about his abilities. He is shown teleporting. If he said he reflects the air at the speed of light, the he does.

Why should I believe your words/opinion/interpretations, over Kuma's word. 

Regardless of the speed of the Lasers, those people you say could dodge them, were unable to avoid Kuma’s pad canons. Only Zoro has shown the ability to do that, and if you reject the lasers as SOL, then Luffy doesn’t even have a feat that compares.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> .



Only Zoro on that level has been shown doing anything with the pads canons. >_> That's why the feat does not stick. >_>

You mistake reflecting air at the speed of light with sending things at the speed of light. >_>

Kuma can teleport and send people long distances because he sends him self and them flying. But even them are not going anywhere close to the speed of light. >_> Never mind damn air...

It's common fking sense they don't travel that fast. >_>

Also, Law can teleport when he had a room up, he didn't have a room up. >_> He also first shown teleportation after the timeskip.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> The main character growing less than anyone during the time skip is pure fanfiction and BS.



If you're not even going to bother refuting the logic behind my arguments, then don't bother addressing my points. You're talking as if Oda has not consistently been portraying a not all out Zoro has definitively superior to G2/G3.

Luffy "drew" against base Hyouzou, and called him strong
Zoro sodomized monster Hyouzou and said he couldn't even kill his boredom.

Luffy "lost" against Monet.
Zoro raped her(literally, was a mind rape).

Luffy got blasted away by Fujitora.
Zoro was willing to tango with him, after having two clashes already.

Carrot dodges a casual attack from Zoro, and clashes with him while bloodlusted(sShe thought they were Jack's men and were defending her home town)
Luffy gets mauled by her, with Chopper commenting on her strength, that she can maul Luffy. This separates it from comedic scenes like Nami beating up the M3, as no one mentions Nami's strength,etc.

Oda gives Zoro a stronger teacher during the Timeskip.

Oda has Zoro untouched during the Timeskip, except a few light bruises from an off guarded attack from an Admiral. Zoro overcomes the extreme gravity, and pushes Fujitora back, with Fujitora commenting that the attack was ferocious.
Luffy gets injured severally.

zoro has been molesting all his opponents post TS.
Luffy has been having difficult fights, and even "lost" against Monet.

Oda has time and time again used Luffy the protagonist, as a freaking hype tool for Zoro.

Please.

*drops mic*

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

........................

Now not only was Luffy bloodlusted when he attacked Hyouzou but apparently it was a full on fight that ended in a draw. 

Fucking plz...

I literally cannot argue with you, just like most other people which is why no one else other than me is even really paying you any attention. 

As such, i'm literally done. FOR REAL this time.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Only Zoro on that level has been shown doing anything with the pads canons. >_> That's why the feat does not stick. >_>
> 
> You mistake reflecting air at the speed of light with sending things at the speed of light. >_>
> 
> ...


If air is reflected at the speed of light, physics says it won't decelerate to below 99% c over such a short distance.
It's common fking sense that they weren't significantly slower than the speed they were reflected at. >_>

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

Just like to point out that before you came to this forum i had 0 dislikes. Now apparently i have 29. 



Just to show i am actually serious. No need replying.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Now not only was Luffy bloodlusted when he attacked Hyouzou but apparently it was a full on fight that ended in a draw.


I put it in quotes. If you evaluated that fight, how would you evaluate it.

Luffy used a jet pistol. Hyozou tanked it, reacted reflexively and cut Luffy poisoning him Luffy takes more damage than Hyouzou in that clash. 

later on, Luffy calls him "strong", a privilege that post TS he has only accorded Fujitora and Inuarashi.. The first an Admiral and the second someone who was able to tango with a 1 billion belli pirate.

Luffy took more damage than Hyouzou did in that fight, Luffy even complimented him. Me calling it a draw, was being generous.



Juvia. said:


> I literally cannot argue with you, just like most other people which is why no one else other than me is even really paying you any attention.
> 
> As such, i'm literally done. FOR REAL this time.


Have a good day.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Dunno (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> The main character growing less than anyone during the time skip is pure fanfiction and BS.



And why would that be? I'm pretty sure Blackbeard for example has grown more than Luffy during certain portions of the manga, possibly even over the TS. Weeble, Bart, Cavendish and a couple SNs are a few possibilities as well. Some of the other SHs as well. There are a lot of people who have grown over the TS, and some distances to Luffy might have actually lessened. One Piece being extremely tightly bound by Shounen tropes is actually what is pure fanfiction and BS.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Dunno said:


> And why would that be? I'm pretty sure Blackbeard for example has grown more than Luffy during certain portions of the manga, possibly even over the TS. Weeble, Bart, Cavendish and a couple SNs are a few possibilities as well. Some of the other SHs as well. There are a lot of people who have grown over the TS, and some distances to Luffy might have actually lessened. One Piece being extremely tightly bound by Shounen tropes is actually what is pure fanfiction and BS.


What do you think about my reasoning for Zoro growing significantly more than Luffy.

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## Yuki (May 20, 2016)

Dunno said:


> And why would that be? I'm pretty sure Blackbeard for example has grown more than Luffy during certain portions of the manga, possibly even over the TS. Weeble, Bart, Cavendish and a couple SNs are a few possibilities as well. Some of the other SHs as well. There are a lot of people who have grown over the TS, and some distances to Luffy might have actually lessened. One Piece being extremely tightly bound by Shounen tropes is actually what is pure fanfiction and BS.



>_> Pretty sure G4 proves all of that wrong. >_>

Pre skip Ussop could give Luffy a mid dif fight with preparation. Post skip Luffy oneshots monster chopper with a G3 attack. 

No one grew more than Luffy over the time skip. >_>

"I'm pretty sure Blackbeard for example has grown more than Luffy during certain portions of the manga."

You mean when he got the Gura? You putting someone getting a new massive power on level to natural growth? Fucking what?

I thought you were better than that, clearly i was wrong.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> No one grew more than Luffy over the time skip. >_>


This is just your speculation.

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## Dunno (May 20, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> >_> Pretty sure G4 proves all of that wrong. >_>
> 
> Pre skip Ussop could give Luffy a mid dif fight with preparation. Post skip Luffy oneshots monster chopper with a G3 attack.
> 
> ...



Luffy before the TS could dispatch of Franky easily. Just look at the difference between them fighting Lucci. After the TS, he would have a harder time, just look at his fights against Bellamy, Hody, Monet, Caesar or DCJ. Who the fuck cares about Chopper? He's been entirely relegated to fanservice post-TS. G4 doesn't prove anything wrong, since it wouldn't necessarily be enough to beat other people on his level, like Law or Zoro. There's still a timer on it you know. Also, we weren't talking about "natural growth", we were talking about growth. If Luffy getting G4 counts as growth, then BB getting the Gura counts as growth. Also, Blackbeard most likely grew more than Luffy over the TS, if he's supposed to be as strong as the other Yonkou now. 

There's also Coby, who has gone from a total scrub to probably not a total scrub since the BoS, which might be more or less than Luffy's growth. Also, as I stated, Bart, Cavendish and a lot of other random characters might have grown from nothing to what they are now over the TS. Now please stop spouting nonsense that you yourself don't even believe in and start being honest.

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## truedetectiveseason2intro (May 20, 2016)

I'm not gonna state my opinion on the actual fight because no one is going to change their minds, but stop using calcs to justify your arguments for in universe fights. They mean shit in universe especially when we're talking 2 vs 11 megatons that isn't even scene as a big deal in the OBD where calcs are actually important.

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## Veltpunch (May 20, 2016)

I don't agree with *everything *@Amon Lancelot said, but he *does *have sound reasoning. It's not just blind fanboying. Honestly, if Zoro weren't in Luffy's crew, binding him to being < Luffy, his growth rate + him definitely having the best training out of the M3, I'd say he'd be >= Luffy rn. Speculation on my part obviously.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I don't agree with *everything *@Amon Lancelot said, but he *does *have sound reasoning. It's not just blind fanboying. Honestly, if Zoro weren't in Luffy's crew, binding him to being < Luffy, his growth rate + him definitely having the best training out of the M3, I'd say he'd be >= Luffy rn. Speculation on my part obviously.


I accept that I'm biased towards Zoro, but I do try to back up all my arguments, with reasoning. What exactly do you disagree with? I'd like to review those arguments.

I think it's actually possible, that he's > Luffy. EOS, Luffy will definitely surpass him, but him being momentarily stronger than Luffy won't be a problem IMO. Especially as Zoro doesn't consider himself inferior to Luffy, and the difference in their portrayal. we also know that Zoro hasn't exhausted all of Santoryu yet(Attacks like Gyuuki Muzume, Ni Gori Zake, etc). He's yet to display Nittoryuu (Rashomon, and a host of other techniques he used against Ryuma, and Kaku). He still has that fire move Hiryu Kaen. And of course there's Asura. As I see Zoro mid/high diffing G2/G3 Luffy (based on current feats and portrayal), if he does have his G4 equivalent, I see him stronger than Luffy. Zoro hasn't gotten stronger post TS. Sabaody Ar Zoro = FI Zoro = Dressrosa Zoro = Zou Zoro = Wano Zoro. I believe Zoro will defeat the Shogun on Wano, who's > Doflamingo. And since he should be at the same strength he is now(he hasn't shown up to half of his arsenal as I demonstrated above), it would mean that Zoro was indeed stronger than Luffy in Dressrosa.

On the other hand, I expect Luffy to either have grown post Doffy, or grow during Whole Cake, and become stronger. This is just speculation though.

Zoro did have much better training than Luffy, and Oda has been using Luffy as a hype tool for Zoro(Hyouzou and Monet for example). Until G4 came, ZOro had the feats and portrayal to place him definitively above Luffy.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Beast (May 20, 2016)

A lot of guys have lost the plot in this thread 

Using inconsistencies as proof for a character being stronger than another character is just low... very low even for here.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Luffy before the TS could dispatch of Franky easily. Just look at the difference between them fighting Lucci. After the TS, he would have a harder time, just look at his fights against Bellamy, Hody, Monet, Caesar or DCJ. Who the fuck cares about Chopper? He's been entirely relegated to fanservice post-TS. G4 doesn't prove anything wrong, since it wouldn't necessarily be enough to beat other people on his level, like Law or Zoro. There's still a timer on it you know. Also, we weren't talking about "natural growth", we were talking about growth. If Luffy getting G4 counts as growth, then BB getting the Gura counts as growth. Also, Blackbeard most likely grew more than Luffy over the TS, if he's supposed to be as strong as the other Yonkou now.
> 
> There's also Coby, who has gone from a total scrub to probably not a total scrub since the BoS, which might be more or less than Luffy's growth. Also, as I stated, Bart, Cavendish and a lot of other random characters might have grown from nothing to what they are now over the TS. Now please stop spouting nonsense that you yourself don't even believe in and start being honest.



Emm... no he didn't. >_>

Pretty fucking sure G4 oneshots fking Franky. 

Pre skip Sanji was much closer to Luffy then most people think he is to Zoro now.

Luffy can oneshot any SH not in the M3 easily. Pre skip he could not.

BB went from Marco level to admirals level, pretty sure that's not as much fking growth as pre skip Luffy to current Luffy. 

If Luffy growing more in his DF counts as growth than getting a totally new OP DF does as well? Are you fucking serious? Get fucking lost.... Oh wow someone getting a totally new DF grew more than Luffy in the span of one little arc. Yea sure that proves people who DON'T GAIN ONE CAN DO SO AS WELL! Are you fking serious? 

NO ONE GREW MORE THAN LUFFY.

Pre skip, Sanji was closer, Franky was closer, Robin was closer, Brook was closer. EVERYONE OF THEM WERE CLOSER PRE SKIP!

But oh no, not the "Grand Master" he gets the benefit of the doubt because he is the great Zoro that no one can stand against.  He grows far more than Luffy has because i say he has to be as strong as Luffy's best at all times despite having no fucking feats that put him even fucking close to G4. 

I'm not going to fking talk about Luffy's "Fights." Against any of those people. 

Only the DCJ one even means anything.

Hordy, underwater keeps taking pills and getting stronger. 

CC, gassed Luffy. No fucking better than BB and his entire crew losing to Megs.  Infact people TELL ME that Luffy losing to CC made more sense because of how tricky he is.

Monet one. 

Bellamy was is even fucking worse.  

Luffy is a damn joker. Put serious Luffy in Joker Luffy's place every time and see a fucking world of difference.  other than the Bellamy one.

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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I don't agree with *everything *@Amon Lancelot said, but he *does *have sound reasoning. It's not just blind fanboying. Honestly, if Zoro weren't in Luffy's crew, binding him to being < Luffy, his growth rate + him definitely having the best training out of the M3, I'd say he'd be >= Luffy rn. Speculation on my part obviously.



You mean a lot right?

Even you that i consider a Zoro fanboy have to see that. >_> You're not a Zorotard. You just give him the benefit of doubt every chance you can get coz you want him to be strong.

I've said time and time again that Zoro along with Luffy easily grew the most because of who was teaching them. But to claim that Zoro's growth rate is >> Luffy's is just pure fanboy fiction.

No one grew more than Luffy, could he have kept up and grew at nearly the same rate? Sure he could.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Dellinger (May 21, 2016)

Hyozu faster than Doflamingo confirmed.He's also more durable than Chinjao.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

@Juvia, no one growing more than Luffy is your fanfiction. Prove it.

Zoro had by far the better training, like his training was far better than Luffy's own. Unless Luffy's growth rate is that much greater than Zoro's, Luffy growing as much as Zoro makes no sense to me.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Hyozu faster than Doflamingo confirmed.He's also more durable than Chinjao.


Never said this. 
He tanked a jet pistol without COA.
He was fat enough to react and poison Luffy. Did Doflamingo never counter any of Luffy's attacks?

Don Chinjao, went down to a Hawk Rifle. Hawk Rifle 》Jet pistol. 

At any rate, I don't believe that being on a higher tier, means all your stats are greater than a character on a lower tier.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> A lot of guys have lost the plot in this thread
> 
> Using inconsistencies as proof for a character being stronger than another character is just low... very low even for here.


What inconsistencies did I use?
You're acting like Oda didn't know what he was doing while directing the fights.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Every single post against Zoro gets a dislike from this fking Zoro wanker and every single post of any kind that is not gets a like from him. 

This guy has some real issues.

I've gotten 5 more since i put him on ignore.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Dellinger (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Never said this.
> He tanked a jet pistol without COA.
> He was fat enough to react and poison Luffy. Did Doflamingo never counter any of Luffy's attacks?
> 
> ...



A Jet Pistol knocked Chinjao's durable head to the floor and almost wrecked Caesar who is >>> Hyozu.

Heck a Jet Pistol sent OD Hody flying like a bitch underwater.

I don't even get why you're are bringing Hyozu the entire time.Luffy's wrecked much stronger guys.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Caesar who is >>> Hyozu.


Hyouzou may very well be > Caesar on durability. 

I've always maintained that Hyouzou > Hody.

Luffy called Hyouzou strong. He wouldn't have, if it was just a casual attack from him.

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## Dellinger (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Hyouzou may very well be > Caesar on durability.
> 
> I've always maintained that Hyouzou > Hody.
> 
> Luffy called Hyouzou strong. He wouldn't have, if it was just a casual attack from him.



Oh so now Hyozu is more durable than a guy like Caesar and he's >Hody? Of course you would maintain that,you're a freaking Zorosucker.

What the fuck

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Oh so now Hyozu is more durable than a guy like Caesar and he's >Hody? Of course you would maintain that,you're a freaking Zorosucker.
> 
> What the fuck



Luffy called Base Hyouzou strong.
He nosold a jet pistol
He reacted to a jet pistol and cut Luffy's skin poisoning him
Hody's feats:

Get blitzed underwater,by a nameless Iai technique from Zoro
Be oneshotted by Zoro
Overdose on energy steroids just to dull the pain.
Yeah sure, Hody > Hyouzou  

I state feats, you cry inconsistency and outlier. 

Your not even debating with facts. 

Caesar > Hyouzou in durability? 
Prove it.

Chinjao?
Prove it. Did Luffy call Chinjao strong?

You're acting like Oda didn't know what he was doing while giving our those feats?

For all my Zoro "wank", I use feats, portrayal and Logic. 
Have a good day.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Kaiser (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Caesar > Hyouzou in durability?
> Prove it.


He took multiple g2 techniques alongside grizzly magnum and recovered a little while after that
Monster Hyouzou was finished by a single Rengoku Onigiri
His durability vastly shits on anything Hyouzou ever took
The only stat where Hyouzou may be better is in reaction speed



> Chinjao?
> Prove it. Did Luffy call Chinjao strong?


Chinjao could take a jet pistol, hawk riffle without slowing down and it required a new g3 technique(thor elephant gun) to put him down
He also gave Luffy a mid diff fight, when Hyouzou even in monster form was fodder to Zoro
They aren't even comparable

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Dellinger (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Luffy called Base Hyouzou strong.
> He nosold a jet pistol
> He reacted to a jet pistol and cut Luffy's skin poisoning him


He never cut Luffy.He just touched him.


> Hody's feats:
> 
> Get blitzed underwater,by a nameless Iai technique from Zoro
> Be oneshotted by Zoro
> Overdose on energy steroids just to dull the pain.


Hody was hyped up as an exceptionally and talented soldier.Hyozou wasn't.If you really think that Hyozou is stronger than OD Hody then you really are an idiot.





> Caesar > Hyouzou in durability?
> Prove it.



Wait..Hyozou has higher durability than a NW veteran?Are you even serious?



> Chinjao?
> Prove it. Did Luffy call Chinjao strong?


Ok,this is beyond stupidity now,you are outright dumbass.

Chinjao is a legend.His head took a legendary sword from an exceptional swordsman like Cavendish or is Hyozou stronger than Cavendish too?



> You're acting like Oda didn't know what he was doing while giving our those feats?


Does it even matter?Luffy outright wrecks far superior opponents.



> For all my Zoro "wank", I use feats, portrayal and Logic.
> Have a good day.



For all your Zoro wank you say what you want and completely ignore other points.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Dunno (May 21, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Emm... no he didn't. >_>
> 
> Pretty fucking sure G4 oneshots fking Franky.
> 
> ...



You seem to be quite agitated. Why do you take everything so personally? It's like every insult to Luffy is an insult to you and I don't like it. And yes, G4 Luffy one-shots Franky. But if Luffy goes G4, it's not an easy fight, since he'll be quite tired afterwards. Pre-TS, Luffy would have beaten Franky without breaking much of a sweat. And growth is growth. Blackbeard grew more from pre-TS to post-TS than Luffy did during that period. It's not a short one mind you. 

And yes, Hody counts, because Luffy could have one-shot him when they were fighting on land had he had the growth rate you presume he has. Zoro even one-shot him under water. Granted that Hody wasn't steroided at that time, but Zoro was also under water, so those facts pretty much cancel each other out. Bellamy did a number on Luffy, his attacks did more damage to Luffy now that when they previously fought, which counts. DCJ counts as you have pointed out. I don't see why Monet wouldn't count. The knock-out CC did against Luffy obviously doesn't count, since there's no way Luffy can't hold his breath for as long as it takes for him to get out of Caesar's reach. What happened afterwards count though. How Caesar kept taking G3 hits and kept getting up for a long time. 

And yes, Luffy sometimes fights well, but that's more of an outlier than a standard. Luffy isn't a 10 that's sometimes a 5, but rather a 5 that's sometimes a 10. 

How can you say that Luffy grew more than Bartolomeo? Or Cavendish? Or Coby? You have no idea how strong the first two were before the TS or how strong Coby is now. Claiming that it's a hard rule or canon or certain that Luffy grew the most out of anyone in the world over the TS is utterly ridiculous, I can't understand how you can claim so.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> What inconsistencies did I use?
> You're acting like Oda didn't know what he was doing while directing the fights.


Literally every single post you made about Luffy fighting a fodder who latter on got stomped by Zoro all are inconsistencies because a bloodlusted luffy would just need one hit to fodderize those same opponents with probably less ease than Zoro himself tbh.

It's like me bringing up the yeti bros and actually believe that them knocking out zoro and company was an impressive feat which is not. Oda just likes to make the enemies seem impressive at first so there's that tension when the crew becomes in danger.

Against Hyouzou luffy was facing 3 opponents and so, I'm 100% certain that the same base Hyouzou or even drugged version would be neg diff by even Sanji forget Luffy who is stronger than either Zoro or Sanji tbh.

You also live off character statements when you see it fit. Kuma for example.

Last but not least you don't understand how burden of proof works. You first who makes the claim/ implies that a certain something happened you would than need to take it upon your self to give scans or even a logic explanation as to how you've got to that conclusion, without the wank of course.

@Dunno 
If you yourself don't know how strong those characters were pre TS and how they currently are... how are you going to claim they have better growth than Luffy? 
Only person who was highlighted to have the same growth rate as Luffy was Ace and so was killed off. 

Luffy went from being unable to even give a pacifista that high diff fight than later one shots with somewhat a basic move now, than latter went on to mid diff fucking DD wit G4. 

WE don't know where BB stood pre TS but most people think yami teach is equal to G4 luffy give or take, so at best he has similar growth rate to Luffy because current Luffy is gonna be PK in less than 2 year while BB is stuck with being Yonko. 

We have a lot of people with similar growth rate to Luffy but never better... because he is the fucking MC... The fuck is so hard to understand about that?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Finalbeta (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Hyouzou may very well be > Caesar on durability.
> 
> I've always maintained that Hyouzou > Hody.
> 
> Luffy called Hyouzou strong. He wouldn't have, if it was just a casual attack from him.


Monster Hody > Hyouzou > Base Hody
So yeah in the end


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Dunno said:


> You seem to be quite agitated. Why do you take everything so personally? It's like every insult to Luffy is an insult to you and I don't like it. And yes, G4 Luffy one-shots Franky. But if Luffy goes G4, it's not an easy fight, since he'll be quite tired afterwards. Pre-TS, Luffy would have beaten Franky without breaking much of a sweat. And growth is growth. Blackbeard grew more from pre-TS to post-TS than Luffy did during that period. It's not a short one mind you.
> 
> And yes, Hody counts, because Luffy could have one-shot him when they were fighting on land had he had the growth rate you presume he has. Zoro even one-shot him under water. Granted that Hody wasn't steroided at that time, but Zoro was also under water, so those facts pretty much cancel each other out. Bellamy did a number on Luffy, his attacks did more damage to Luffy now that when they previously fought, which counts. DCJ counts as you have pointed out. I don't see why Monet wouldn't count. The knock-out CC did against Luffy obviously doesn't count, since there's no way Luffy can't hold his breath for as long as it takes for him to get out of Caesar's reach. What happened afterwards count though. How Caesar kept taking G3 hits and kept getting up for a long time.
> 
> ...



It's not about Luffy, it's about all the damn Zoro wank. If you want to see me get defensive about characters you'll see it when people get seriously downplayed. I get agitated easily about all the Zoro shit because i've been at this shit with wankers for years, after some time it just gets fucking old. 

On two other forums *I *my self am considered a Zoro wanker. I got shit for saying Zoro could beat the middle trio and the weak trio together at once. They said even G4 Luffy would have trouble with such a feat, but they admit Luffy could at least do it. But truth is G4 Luffy would oneshot them all, a single punch each and Zoro could probably pull off a similar feat he just won;t find it as easy. 

If those people came to this forum they would get a bloody heart attack. 

G4 is part of Luffy's power and growth. G4 is Luffy's highest power and form so that's the one i am talking about.

Post time skip Luffy can beat Franky without breaking a sweat. >_> Any of the M3 can...

Hordy all most did get oneshot by Luffy, but he kept on taking pills over and over again. Just like he did when Zoro all most oneshot him.

Drug that makes someone 10x stronger > A fishman going from land to water. A fishmans power doubles under water. The drugs times it by 10 apparently. However, a Fishmans durability dose not grow underwater. It does grow by taking drugs however. You cannot compare the drugs to water. Even more so as Steroid Hordy was not even just one drug, but fking hundreds of them.

So no, it really does not. Zoro would not oneshot Monster Hordy. The guy was a freak after taking so many drugs.

Bellamy hurting Luffy does not count at all. Anyone can hurt anyone if the person is not willing to properly defend them selves from the attack. >_>

Once Luffy made his mind up to end Bellamy however, it ended just like it had pre skip. >_>

DCJ fought with Garp him self, i don't see Zoro winning easier than Luffy did without his higher end moves. Maybe faster, as Zoro him self is and always has been more lethal coz cutting > Blunt. G4 Luffy however would also oneshot DCJ just like a super high end Zoro move would.

Monet does not count because it's just one of those stupid Luffy moments where things happen for the sake of plot. If Luffy red hakwed her or anything of the kind she would not have even made it to Zoro and YOU KNOW that's the case.

CC was pretty tanky, but that does not change from Luffy to Zoro. >_> Zoro also could not end CC without his higher end moves.

No that's literally not the case. >_> Luffy is a 10 that's sometimes a 5 and Zoro is an 8. Not the other way fking round...

Bartolomeo? Where the fuck did he grow? Pretty sure Luffy after one year training was stronger than Bartolomeo is now. That goes for Cavendish as well.

Coby however is a different story. It's like Ussop having 200k bounty while Franky has not even broken 100 yet.

Coby went from a normal person to being trained by Garp, the same would happen with anyone. Proven by Coby's own training partner.

Zoro is not like Coby however, he like Luffy started training young. Zoro did not get a new fruit like BB, and Zoro did not get a new power up like Luffy.

Also, BB did not get stronger than Luffy did during the time skip.

Post skip Luffy would literally oneshot his previous self.

BB would not. >_> Proven by not even WB being able to do it. >_>

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Raiden34 (May 21, 2016)

If Hyouzu was anywhere near close to even Old Chinjao, he would at least put up a fight instead of using his poison and running away from Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Veltpunch (May 21, 2016)

I always find myself in these messes...


Amon Lancelot said:


> I accept that I'm biased towards Zoro, but I do try to back up all my arguments, with reasoning. What exactly do you disagree with? I'd like to review those arguments.


Well, off the dome, I think the Hyozou thing has to be taken with a grain of salt. Luffy did attack other guys before Hyozou. Furthermore, if he wanted to, Luffy would have rekt him easily. Less than easily. He reacted to one attack, but if Luffy would have followed up with another G2 punch, for example, Hyozou would have been out of commission.

Regarding Monet, we're talking about a character that Zoro nearly scared to death. Luffy destroys her if he's serious, man.

Regarding CC, Smoker, Tashigi, Franky all lost to him, and the same way I might add. He has an ability where you cannot rush into battle with no/limited knowledge. Zoro himself compared Luffy's loss to CC as him/Sanji etc getting knocked out by the Yet Cool Bros, who are absolute jokes, but they caught them off guard similar to how CC's ability caught Luffy/Smoker etc off guard. Can't hold that against Luffy from that perspective unless you hold the YCB thing against Zoro.

Oh, and I almost completely disagree with the Fuji thing. I agree that he withstood more gravity than Law, but him giving Fuji mid/high? Hellllll naw bro.

I totally agree that Zoro had the better training, though. Not the better growth though, simply because he's directly under the MC in their chain of command so he can't be stronger.



> I think it's actually possible, that he's > Luffy. EOS, Luffy will definitely surpass him, but him being momentarily stronger than Luffy won't be a problem IMO. Especially as Zoro doesn't consider himself inferior to Luffy, and the difference in their portrayal. we also know that Zoro hasn't exhausted all of Santoryu yet(Attacks like Gyuuki Muzume, Ni Gori Zake, etc). He's yet to display Nittoryuu (Rashomon, and a host of other techniques he used against Ryuma, and Kaku). He still has that fire move Hiryu Kaen. And of course there's Asura. As I see Zoro mid/high diffing G2/G3 Luffy (based on current feats and portrayal), if he does have his G4 equivalent, I see him stronger than Luffy. Zoro hasn't gotten stronger post TS. Sabaody Ar Zoro = FI Zoro = Dressrosa Zoro = Zou Zoro = Wano Zoro. I believe Zoro will defeat the Shogun on Wano, who's > Doflamingo. And since he should be at the same strength he is now(he hasn't shown up to half of his arsenal as I demonstrated above), it would mean that Zoro was indeed stronger than Luffy in Dressrosa.


Nah, Zoro can't be stronger, though I think that both of them at 100% are pretty close. I've maintained that belief even after G4. There's a lot of speculation in this bit though, man . I mean, Zoro hasn't shown much of his full strength yet. We also don't know how strong the Shogun will be. The feats don't favor Zoro in DR.



> On the other hand, I expect Luffy to either have grown post Doffy, or grow during Whole Cake, and become stronger. This is just speculation though.
> 
> Zoro did have much better training than Luffy, and Oda has been using Luffy as a hype tool for Zoro(Hyouzou and Monet for example). Until G4 came, ZOro had the feats and portrayal to place him definitively above Luffy.


Luffy will definitely grow stronger.

He did have the better training, but we can't say his feats were better than Luffy's, even pre-G4. Zoro hasn't even broken a sweat yet. He has no feats against an opponent on his tier.



Juvia. said:


> You mean a lot right?
> 
> Even you that i consider a Zoro fanboy have to see that. >_> You're not a Zorotard. You just give him the benefit of doubt every chance you can get coz you want him to be strong.


Me, a Zoro fanboy? He's probably my second or third favorite, but I don't think so. I'll accept Ace fanboy, but nothing more. It's not that I want him to be strong, he is and will be strong. He's the future PK's first mate and future WSS. I defend Zoro a lot because years of Zoro wank is making everyone else downplay him i.e. People saying Law is naturally stronger/faster than him, saying he's slow, selectively dismissing impressive feats he has, etc.



> I've said time and time again that Zoro along with Luffy easily grew the most because of who was teaching them. But to claim that Zoro's growth rate is >> Luffy's is just pure fanboy fiction.


Who said his growth rate was better? He did have the better training though.



> No one grew more than Luffy, could he have kept up and grew at nearly the same rate? Sure he could.


I more or less agree with you here. Personally I think Kidd might have. Pre-skip I thought Luffy could beat him, but post-skip I have a feeling Kidd is stronger. That's speculation on my part, though.


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## Veltpunch (May 21, 2016)

Speaking of DCJ, how strong do you guys think he is? He gave Luffy about a high mid diff fight...but then got the work from Lao G who is < than the seats, who get low-diffed by M3..


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

O_O Wow... Ok...

DCJ after being beaten by Luffy was done. Imo the entire point was to pass the title over to the other person. 

Luffy solidly mid diffed him Imo. Luffy however, held back a nice bit. If he used one of his higher end G3 moves it would have been over a lot faster.

Fresh DCJ would beat down Lao G.

Also, the Amon guy said Zoro's growth over the time skip was significantly higher than Luffy's.


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## MrWano (May 21, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Speaking of DCJ, how strong do you guys think he is? He gave Luffy about a high mid diff fight...but then got the work from Lao G who is < than the seats, who get low-diffed by M3..



Now? Not all that probably, but still strong in the grand scheme of things. Remember, he said that his illness had been acting up since his fight with Luffy. Which is basically Oda telling us that DCJ got significantly weaker. So, in terms of fighting prowess and physical "stats", the DCJ who fought Luffy and the one who fought Lao G are completely different.


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## Veltpunch (May 21, 2016)

MrWano said:


> Now? Not all that probably, but still strong in the grand scheme of things. Remember, he said that his illness had been acting up since his fight with Luffy. Which is basically Oda telling us that DCJ got significantly weaker. So, in terms of fighting prowess and physical "stats", the DCJ who fought Luffy and the one who fought Lao G are completely different.


Ahh, that makes sense. Completely forgot about that.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> He took multiple g2 techniques alongside grizzly magnum and recovered a little while after that
> Monster Hyouzou was finished by a single Rengoku Onigiri
> His durability vastly shits on anything Hyouzou ever took
> The only stat where Hyouzou may be better is in reaction speed
> ...


Well we don't know how Rengoku Onigiri compares to those techniques.

Regardless, he was trying to say that Hyouzou tanking a Jet Pistol was an inconsistency. By mentioning guys who are supposedly > Hyouzou who didn't tank Jet Pistol.

Don't know if they weren't able to nosell a jet pistol like Hyouzou did.

Do you believe that Hyouzou tanking a Jet Pistol was an inconsistency?

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> He never cut Luffy.He just touched him.
> 
> Hody was hyped up as an exceptionally and talented soldier.Hyozou wasn't.If you really think that Hyozou is stronger than OD Hody then you really are an idiot.
> 
> ...


Hyouzou cut Luffy he had an injury. That's how he got poisoned.  

Luffy calling Hyouzou strong I'd greater than whatever hype Hody had.

Just because X character > Hyouzou, does not make their durability > as well.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Dellinger (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Hyouzou cut Luffy he had an injury. That's how he got poisoned.
> 
> Luffy calling Hyouzou strong I'd greater than whatever hype Hody had.
> 
> Just because X character > Hyouzou, does not make their durability > as well.



Caesar and Chinjao are >>>>> Hyozou.

Comparing a legend to a shit is stupid.


The Hyozou stuff is either an inconsistency or Luffy did really put much effort behind that punch.Pick one.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Caesar and Chinjao are >>>>> Hyozou.
> 
> Comparing a legend to a shit is stupid.
> 
> ...


Luffy was serious when punching him. Sanji's life was in danger. Hyouzou tanked the Jet pistol, Luffy called him strong. Had Luffy not called him strong I may have conceded, but Luffy did.

Again, just because they're >> Hyozou, does not mean they have better durability. Hyouzou may be better in that singular stat.

@Veltpunch,
I don't count Caesar against Luffy.
He lacked knowledge, just the same way I don't count the YCB against Zoro/Sanji.

Hyouzou was very different.

He legit tanked the Jethe pistol. Let's forget about reacting and poisoning for now.

Luffy was passed Sanji's life was in danger, they were obstructing them.



			
				Monkey D. Luffy said:
			
		

> I thought I told you, we're not listening to your demands!!!


Hyouzou tanks it.
When Chopper inspects Luffy's wound, 


			
				Monkey D. Luffy said:
			
		

> Yeah, I did feel a nasty sensation while fighting those fishmen. It must be that Octopus swordsman.
> I bet he's very strong. He withstood my attack afterall.



Luffy specifically praised Hyouzou for tanking Jet pistol. If Luffy could have easily wrecked him/oneshot him/it was an inconsistency/Luffy wasn't serious, etc then that statement makes Zero sense.

Hyouzou showed the durability to withstand a jet pistol. 
Luffy praised him for it.

How is it inconsistent. 

As soon as Zoro defeats an opponent other becomes fodder. Luffy's performance against said opponent, becomes an inconsistency. 

What if Zoro is just strong.

Zoro's training was 》Luffy's.
If you claim he didn't grow more than Luffy and your reason is Luffy is the MC?

Oda drew Luffy vs Hyouzou, he drew Luffy vs Monet. He knew what he was doing. He deliberately had Luffy perform poorly against opponents and had Zoro neg diff them.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Dellinger (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Luffy was serious when punching him. Sanji's life was in danger. Hyouzou tanked the Jet pistol, Luffy called him strong. Had Luffy not called him strong I may have conceded, but Luffy did.
> 
> Again, just because they're >> Hyozou, does not mean they have better durability. Hyouzou may be better in that singular stat.
> 
> I don't count Caesar against Luffy.



No.Chinjao takes a crap on Hyozou in everything.Caesar has had more impressive durability feats,on par with OD Hody who is >>> Hyozou.

Doflamingo called Sanji strong.Does that mean that Doflamingo doesn't shit on Sanji?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Raiden34 (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Luffy calling Hyouzou strong I'd greater than whatever hype Hody had.
> .






''*Must be*'' That's a difference. Luffy wasn't completely sure either and he didn't use CoO, he just knows Hyouzu survived his G2 punch and run off, so what... Even Gladious is capable of doing that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Creative 1 | Disagree 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> No.Chinjao takes a crap on Hyozou in everything.Caesar has had more impressive durability feats,on par with OD Hody who is >>> Hyozou.
> 
> Doflamingo called Sanji strong.Does that mean that Doflamingo doesn't shit on Sanji?


Doflamingo is not Luffy. He may very well have been mocking. Luffy doesn't do that. Barring Hyouzou, the only people Post TS Luffy has called strong are Fujitora and Inuarashi.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> ''*Must be*'' That's a difference. Luffy wasn't completely sure either and he didn't use CoO, he just knows Hyouzu survived his G2 punch and run off, so what... Even Gladious is capable of doing that.


You know must be indicates surety right?

Hyouzou didn't just survive it. He took no damage from it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Finalbeta (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> You know must be indicates surety right?
> 
> Hyouzou didn't just survive it. He took no damage from it.


The guy was tough before Zolo shown up

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiden34 (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> You know must be indicates surety right?


Saying that ''Must be'' and saying ''He is strong'' are different things, Luffy only says ''must be'' because Hyouzu survived G2 punch, that's why he said ''must be strong'' , not because he used CoO on him to sense his power unlike he did with Fujitora and Inurashi...



Amon Lancelot said:


> Hyouzou didn't just survive it. He took no damage from it.



Yeah then why did he run ? He just learn that he is no match for Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Saying that ''Must be'' and saying ''He is strong'' are different things, Luffy only says ''must be'' because Hyouzu survived G2 punch, that's why he said ''must be strong'' , not because he used CoO on him to sense his power unlike he did with Fujitora and Inurashi...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah then why did he run ? He just learn that he is no match for Luffy.


Doflamingo survived G4, he didn't tank it.
Hyouzou nosold a Jet pistol, he took zero damage from the attack.

Hyouzou left because his employers had been knocked out.  He also needed to report to Hody.

Regardless, I'm not saying Hyouzou istrong actually strong. But Luffy did compliment him. He legit reacted to a jet pistol from a serious Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Wankers will cling onto anything if it supports their hero.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Finalbeta (May 21, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Wankers will cling onto anything if it supports their hero.


At least I legit get wrong sometimes


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## Finalbeta (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Doflamingo survived G4, he didn't tank it.
> Hyouzou nosold a Jet pistol, he took zero damage from the attack.
> 
> Hyouzou left because his employers had been knocked out.  He also needed to report to Hody.
> ...


I think Hyouzou could beat people like Dellinger with easy , so he's pretty strong compared to Pre-TS characters and few Post-TS


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> I think Hyouzou could beat people like Dellinger with easy , so he's pretty strong compared to Pre-TS characters and few Post-TS



No he could not. >_>


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## Monstar6 (May 21, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> No he could not. >_>



Why not? 
Zoro get rid of Delliger with his feet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (May 21, 2016)

Are you serious guys?Dellinger was wrecking seasoned NW pirates and he wrecked Bellamy.Bellamy is >>> Hyozou


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> Why not?
> Zoro get rid of Delliger with his feet.



Fishman Island was full of weaklings. No one but Jinbe is even worth noting.

But maybe i was a little quick to jump to conclusions there. But Dellinger still wins.


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## Finalbeta (May 21, 2016)

Well Zoro would oneshot Dellinger no prob as well, we will never know


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Well Zoro would oneshot Dellinger no prob as well, we will never know



Zoro didn't oneshot Hyouzou.


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## Finalbeta (May 21, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Zoro didn't oneshot Hyouzou.


You admit he is stronger than Dellinger?


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> You admit he is stronger than Dellinger?



No. >_> I said that Zoro didn't oneshot Hyouzou.

You said Zoro could oneshot Dellinger "as well" indicating you thought Zoro oneshot Hyouzou.


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## Finalbeta (May 21, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> No. >_> I said that Zoro didn't oneshot Hyouzou.


Anyway by portrayal he's above Dellinger, as getting 'a compliment' from Post-TS Luffy, calling someone strong, is quite something. I doubt he would've done the same with Delli in the same occasion

Anyway we haven't enough stuff to say who's the strongest imo, they both got fodderized more or less by either Hakuba or a casual Zoro

If you consider casual Zoro > Hakuba he is stronger than Dellinger then


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

Zoro oneshot Dellinger with his feet, without putting on his Bandana.  Zoro deemed Hyouzou worthy enough for "Rengoku Onigiri ".
I don't see why Hyouzou can't take out Dellinger. 

He has

The durability to tank a Jet pistol from a serious Luffy. 
Reaction speed to react to said Jet pistol.
Was complemented by Luffy.
All of the above were in Base. 

In Monster form, he's several times greater in everything.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> No. >_> I said that Zoro didn't oneshot Hyouzou.
> 
> You said Zoro could oneshot Dellinger "as well" indicating you thought Zoro oneshot Hyouzou.


He still neg diffed him. 
Dellinger on the other hand, was one shot by a kick from a super casual Zoro. Despite having a sword drawn, he didn't use it on Dellinger, that's just how low Zoro rates him.

I'd back Monster Hyouzou over Dellinger any day. 

Hyouzou's feats and portrayal don't just dissappear because you cry "inconsistency"/"outlier"

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Anyway by portrayal he's above Dellinger, as getting 'a compliment' from Post-TS Luffy, calling someone strong, is quite something. I doubt he would've done the same with Delli in the same occasion
> 
> Anyway we haven't enough stuff to say who's the strongest imo, they both got fodderized more or less by either Hakuba or a casual Zoro
> 
> If you consider casual Zoro > Hakuba he is stronger than Dellinger then



Luffy would have said the same to anyone that could take his G2 Punch. >_> That's the entire reason Luffy said it. >_>


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## Finalbeta (May 21, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Luffy would have said the same to anyone that could take his G2 Punch. >_> That's the entire reason Luffy said it. >_>


But could Delli do that? 

Questions unanswered


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## Yuki (May 21, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> But could Delli do that?
> 
> Questions unanswered



Of course he could. >_>


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Of course he could. >_>


So a kick from Zoro > G2 Jet pistol? 

Hyouzou nosold a Jet pistol. Luffy called him strong, and said "he could withstand my punch afterall".

Luffy doesn't go around dishing compliments. Apart from Hyouzou, the only others post TS Luffy as called strong is Fujitora and Inuarashi. 

Hyouzou > Dellinger.
Put Hyouzou in Base and we have a fight. 

On second note, whether or not Zoro can win, depends on:

The difference between G2/G3 and G4
Time limit of G4
Difference in COA between Zoro and Luffy. (If Zoro's COA is stronger, he'd be able to hurt Luffy in G4
Whether or not Luffy is bloodlusted, when does he pull out G4? (As he worn Zoro out enough/Is he too worn out already)
Depending on the above factors, I can see either current Zoro or Luffy winning. G4 or not.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Raiden34 (May 22, 2016)

Hyouzu is shit, and Dellinger would kill him. 

Zoro cheap-shotted Dellinger from behind, that means nothing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Beast (May 22, 2016)

Hyouzou would have been an East Blue enemy had he followed Arlong

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Benn Beckman (May 22, 2016)

The move that took out Hyozou is Zoro's signature move. It's not his best, and it's rather straightforward in its effects, but freaking powerful. It is only natural that it can be more effective than a halfassed Jet Pistol performed on the spot.

The main difference between Zoro and Luffy (ignoring power level for now), is that Zoro values focus and discipline, while Luffy still kind of needs to be pissed off to be most effective. So comparing any feat Luffy performs against weak people to Zoro's against the same person is bound to suffer from inaccuracies.

Luffy wins.



MasterBeast said:


> Hyouzou would have been an East Blue enemy had he followed Arlong



Didn't expect this kind of talk from you tbh...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (May 22, 2016)

Frankiest said:


> Didn't expect this kind of talk from you tbh...


Welcome back?

Anyway, it's just bait... you'll soon understand.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Benn Beckman (May 22, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Welcome back?
> 
> Anyway, it's just bait... you'll soon understand.


Thanks.

Looking forward to it.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Yuki (May 22, 2016)

Omg someone with a Zoro avatar made a good post when it comes to Zoro and Luffy. OMG!

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Literally every single post you made about Luffy fighting a fodder who latter on got stomped by Zoro all are inconsistencies because a bloodlusted luffy would just need one hit to fodderize those same opponents with probably less ease than Zoro himself tbh.


Prove this. 
It may be possible, but easier than Zoro?
Considering *base *Hyouzou nosold a jet Pistol, and Monster Hyouzou >>>> Base Hyouzou in durability, I don't think Luffy can oneshot base Hyouzou in G2/G3. Hell he couldn't oneshot Monster Hody. (Base Hyouzou > Hody in durability. Hody got neg diffed by a nameless Iai from Zoro, Hyouzou *nosold *a jet pistol. Monster Hyouzou >> Monster Hody in durability.)

Just because Zoro oneshot him, *does not prove *that Luffy can(G4 excluded of course)
Unless you can prove that Luffy > Zoro, in attack power, DC, Lethality, attack speed, etc in G2/G3.

Could Luffy have neg diffed Monet. If he's in the arena sure, outside of it, the fight would go down how it went in the manga. I don't think Luffy can neg diff Monster Hyouzou barring G4. Base Hyouzou *nosold *a jet pistol(Luffy specifically complimenting him for withstanding that attack, means it's a legit feat.) Monster Hyouzou >>>>>>> Base Hyouzou in durability (Scaled of Hody's monster transformation)

They're *NOT *inconsistencies. How will I put it, it didn't happen once. I have never claimed that Luffy !>> Hyouzou/Monet. I accept he is. But isn't it suprising, that the only opponents who Luffy performed psii poor against that should be leagues below him(Scaled off how Zoro fodderised them), are all opponents that Zoro fought. Oda repeatedly drew G2/G3 Luffy, as underwhelming against X opponents, only to have Zoro low diff them. You guys scream inconsistencies.

*ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE OL CANNOT SEE THE OBVIOUS DIFFERENCE IN PORTRAYAL THAT ODA DID?*


He's the fucking God of this manga. He drew those scenes. He wanted Luffy to look underwhelming, to have Zoro fodderise same opponents, and thus hype Zoro up. They're not inconsistent. Rejecting the Hyouzou feat, is something I find ridiculous. Luffy himself called Hyouzou strong, for *noselling *his jet pistol. Post TS Luffy, that as only other called Inuarashi and Fujitora strong. \In their short clash, Base Hyouzou was portrayed as a legitimate threat for Luffy. He nosold his jet pistol from a serious Luffy.(Luffy was pissed. He wasn't raging or bloodlusted, but he was deadly serious and angry). Not only did he tank the attack, he reflexively reacted, and cut Luffy poisoning him. Suggesting he can do more if he was trying. Luffy took more damage in that fight than Hyouzou did. Luffy later went on to praise Hyouzou.


he was built up as a legitimate threat.

Base Hody got neg diffed oneshotted by a nameless attack from Zoro. He was overdosing on Energy steroids, just to quell the pain. Not until he attained Monster transformation, did he fully recover from the effects of his clash with Zoro.

See the differnce in portrayal between base Hyouzou and base Hody?

Later on, they both monsterised.  Base Hody who was neg diffed by Zoro, upon monsterisation pushed Luffy to mid diff.

Base Hyouzou who "drew" with Luffy, upon monsterisation got neg diffed by Zoro. Suddenly, the feat becomes an outlier.

Dafuq 

Oda did this again with Monet.

he had Luffy "lose" to her, only to let Zoro mindrape her.
Inconsistent outlier. Like what the hell.

Sure Luffy could have probably oneshotted Monet with a red hawk(We don't now her durability. Only reason she lost, was because of Zoro's mindrape. Red Hawk is fire, s it'll probably pull it.)

Luffy got his ass handed to him against Fujitora, Zoro wanted to tag himself in, eager for the battle, despite engaging him twice already.

How many times must Oda draw Luffy underwhelming against an opponent to have Zoro fodderise said opponent, before you accept the portrayal.

Really sad this is what the OL thinks.

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## Muah (May 22, 2016)

Luffy can mid diff, no diff with g4.

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## The Dark Flame (May 22, 2016)

Luffy kills the marimo

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## Raiden34 (May 22, 2016)

Frankiest said:


> The move that took out Hyozou is Zoro's signature move. It's not his best, and it's rather straightforward in its effects, but freaking powerful. It is only natural that it can be more effective than a halfassed Jet Pistol performed on the spot.
> ..



Yep, santouryu signature moves are G3's, and the other regular attacks of his G2's equivalent.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Frankiest said:


> The move that took out Hyozou is Zoro's signature move. It's not his best, and it's rather straightforward in its effects, but freaking powerful. It is only natural that it can be more effective than a halfassed Jet Pistol performed on the spot.
> 
> The main difference between Zoro and Luffy (ignoring power level for now), is that Zoro values focus and discipline, while Luffy still kind of needs to be pissed off to be most effective. So comparing any feat Luffy performs against weak people to Zoro's against the same person is bound to suffer from inaccuracies.
> 
> ...


I didn't claim Luffy can't defeat Hyouzou.
Luffy was pissed against the fishmen though.




The fact that he complimented Hyouzou specifically for tanking his attack, means that he was *serious*. Barring Hyouzou, Luffy only called Fujitora and Inuarashi strong.

Do I think Luffy can easily defeat base Hyouzou? yes.

Do I think Luffy can oneshot him with a jet pistol?
No. Because Hyouzou legit tanked a Jet Pistol from a serious Luffy.
If he wasn't serious, or the attack was "half-assed", Luffy wouldn't have complimented him for it.

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## Yuki (May 22, 2016)

giantbiceps said:


> Just watched GoT ep 5. Summer + Hodor + 3-eyed raven die



If you find you are telling the truth. I am going to neg you so hard. -_-


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## Raiden34 (May 22, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> The fact that he complimented Hyouzou specifically for tanking his attack, means that he was *serious*. Barring Hyouzou, Luffy only called Fujitora and Inuarashi strong.



Are you playing the dumb here ? Or what kind of Zoro bias is this ?

Luffy used CoO on Fuji and Inu, he didn't use CoO on Hyouzu, he says ''He must be strong because he survived my G2 punch'' .... Luffy btw, knows that Hyouzu survived his punch and he still didn't give a darn about him since Hyouzu ran off.

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## Benn Beckman (May 22, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I didn't claim Luffy can't defeat Hyouzou.
> Luffy was pissed against the fishmen though.
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, Hyouzou is strong. What's your point? Does that somehow mean Zoro can beat Luffy?

I mean, I love Zoro as much as the next guy, but he is kinda arrogant (in an awesome way), so you should look at the technique he used against Hyouzou, not what he said about him or how epic it was.


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## Raiden34 (May 22, 2016)

Frankiest said:


> Ok, Hyouzou is strong. What's your point? Does that somehow mean Zoro can beat Luffy?
> 
> I mean, I love Zoro as much as the next guy, but he is kinda arrogant (in an awesome way), so you should look at the technique he used against Hyouzou, not what he said about him or how epic it was.



So true. That wasn't something he can do without his signature Santouryu style.

We need more Zoro fans like you in here.

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## Monstar6 (May 22, 2016)

Frankiest said:


> Ok, Hyouzou is strong. What's your point? Does that somehow mean Zoro can beat Luffy?
> 
> I mean, I love Zoro as much as the next guy, but he is kinda arrogant (in an awesome way), so you should look at the technique he used against Hyouzou, not what he said about him or how epic it was.



Tbf the "Rengoku Onigiri" was not necessary at all to end Hyozou.
I mean Zoro casually destroy Hyozou's swords and tell him he don't worth his time .
He was playing with Hyozou the whole time.

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## Raiden34 (May 22, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> Tbf the "Rengoku Onigiri" was not necessary at all to end Hyozou.
> I mean Zoro casually destroy Hyozou's swords and tell him he don't worth his time .
> He was playing with Hyozou the whole time.


Kekkai = A santouryu move again... How is this casually ?

Really what's wrong with these majority of the Zoro fans ?

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Frankiest said:


> Ok, Hyouzou is strong. What's your point? Does that somehow mean Zoro can beat Luffy?
> 
> I mean, I love Zoro as much as the next guy, but he is kinda arrogant (in an awesome way), so you should look at the technique he used against Hyouzou, not what he said about him or how epic it was.


My point is that base Hyouzou *legitimately *tanked a G2 Jet pistol.

Monster Hyouzou who's >>>>> base Hyouzou in durability(powerscaled of Monster Hody), got one shotted by Rengoku Oni giri.
This portrays Zoro, as >> G2/G3 luffy. Furthermore, is the fact that Luffy "drew" against Zoro's opponent in base, whie Zoro neg diffed "Luffy's" opponent in base.
Another example, is Monet, who beat Luffy, but got neg diffed via mind rape from Zoro.

Current Zoro who hasn't showed up to half of his skillset, has been portrayed as decisively superior to g2/g3 Luffy.

Rengoku Oni Giri >>>>> Jet Pistol.

Lol, that wasn't my point. I just wanted you guys to accept's Hyouzou's feat.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> We have a lot of people with similar growth rate to Luffy but never better... because he is the fucking MC... The fuck is so hard to understand about that?


Growth rate is different from growth.
Zoro's growth rate ~ To Luffy's

However, Zoro's TS training >> Luffy's.

For Luffy to even have the same growth during the TS as Zoro, his growth rate, must absolutely shit on Zoro's.

Meh, the MC logic may not work in one piece. Go to third rate Shonens like Fairy tail.



MasterBeast said:


> I'm 100% certain that the same base Hyouzou or even drugged version would be neg diff by even Sanji forget Luffy who is stronger than either Zoro or Sanji tbh.


baseless.

Base Hyouzou, can tank a G2 jet pistol, which is ~ to a basic diable Jambe kick(from their performance vs the pacifista).

Monster Hyouzou >>>>>> Base Hyouzou in endurance.

Sanji mya not even be able to hurt him 

On a serious note, all we know about Monster Hyouzou's durability, is that he got one shotted by one of Zoro's signature attacks, and that he's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pacifista in durability.

Look at the difference between Hody and Monster Hody in durability. The take base Hyouzou's durability(unscathed from a jet pistol from a serious Luffy even monster Hody couldn't do that . Then try to imagine how high monster Hyouzou's durability is. Only then, can you begin to comprehend the attack potency/lethality of the "grandmaster")

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Kekkai = A santouryu move again... How is this casually ?
> 
> Really what's wrong with these majority of the Zoro fans ?


Yeah, btw Kekkai means barrier. As in the magical force field kind.

To give you an example:
[MEDIA]
The totally ineffective barrier that Brian(the dude with Blue hair) used, is Kekkai.

But casual Zoro, is a one armed nameless Ittoryuu slash from Zoro right.
Well:

*Spoiler*: __ 












Under such extreme gravity (compare the gravity used on Law for instance;

*Spoiler*: __ 




Law under Fujitora's gravity

*Spoiler*: __ 














The gravity Fujitora used on Zoro, was several orders of magnitude greater than what he used on law.
Law was immobilized by the weaker gravity, and was facing breathing problems.
Zoro survived the vastly greater gravity, and was able to overcome moving his hand under that gravity to generate enough force to send a flying slash which not only overcame said extreme gravity, but also pushed Fujitora back at least a metre.
[/SPOILER]
Zoro was able to push back fujitora. IIRC, Luffy needed G3 and armament hardening  push back Fuji *while NOT HINDERED *by his gravity.

Casual Zoro >= G3

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## Benn Beckman (May 22, 2016)

@Amon Lancelot: You're making three mistakes:

1) Neg diff isn't a real thing. It's a joke. You just have to accept that Zoro's attitude doesn't influence the difficulty with which he achieves his feats. These are two different characters.

2) Hyouzou blocked a fist using a sword, it didn't actually touch him, and if he actually blocked it completely, both his friends would have still been standing.

3) Comparing a blocking feat to a tanking feat in itself, is fallacious.

But if you're just trying to say Zoro can compete with G2/G3 Luffy then maybe you're right, he does have the moves to do so, and G2/G3 boosts aren't big enough to matter too much.


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## Finalbeta (May 22, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Hyouzu is shit, and Dellinger would kill him.
> 
> Zoro cheap-shotted Dellinger from behind, that means nothing.


Dellinger is a shit as well compared to M3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> So true. That wasn't something he can do without his signature Santouryu style.


Lel.
Oni Giri is Zoro's first Santoryuu attack. That's why it's his singature move. Not because it's most powerful or anything. In away, it's his gomu gomu no pistol. (for santoryuu at at least)

I can list at least ten non Asura attacks > Oni giri.


Sanzen sekai
108 pound ho
Rokudo no tsui
gyuuki Muzume
Hiryu Kaen
Ni Gori Zake
Tatsumaki
Rashomon 
Shishi sonson
leopard Koto ball
Tiger hunt

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Frankiest said:


> Hyouzou blocked a fist using a sword, it didn't actually touch him, and if he actually blocked it completely, both his friends would have still been standing.


He was the third to be hit, not the first. 
It looks like Hyouzou got hit clean by the attack.

Luffy even praises him, specifically for withstanding the attack.

Furthermore, the cut is on Luffy's arm not his fist.

if Hyouzou had blocked it, it would have been on Luffy's fist.

Everything points to Hyouzou actually tanking the attack.



Frankiest said:


> Neg diff isn't a real thing. It's a joke. You just have to accept that Zoro's attitude doesn't influence the difficulty with which he achieves his feats. These are two different characters.


It does, actually. Yakkoudouri, is a named move for instance, and was blocked by a fodder fishman, a nameless slash under the other hand, was able to overcome extreme gravity and push back an Admiral.

I already proved that luffy was enraged and dead serious, when he used jet pistol then. He wasn't "jobbing".

If there is no neg diff, what would you classify Zoro vs Monet?



Frankiest said:


> But if you're just trying to say Zoro can compete with G2/G3 Luffy then maybe you're right, he does have the moves to do so, and G2/G3 boosts aren't big enough to matter too much.


I'm trying to say by current feas, G2.G3 luffy doesn't push xurrent Zoro past high diff.

By portrayal, it's even worse.

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## Dellinger (May 22, 2016)

This idiot still brings up Hyozou when Luffy's wrecked far superior opponents


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## Raiden34 (May 22, 2016)

G2's equivalent is regular sword slashes ; like this ;



Luffy's portrayal against Hyouzu > Zoro's portrayal against Carrot

Santouryu's equivalent is Luffy's G3.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> This idiot still brings up Hyozou when Luffy's wrecked far superior opponents


Prove those opponents have durability > Hyouzou.
I've already proved that Luffy was very serious and enraged when he punched Hyouzou.

Once again, just because X > hyouzou does not mean X's durability > Hyouzou's durability.

Try again.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> G2's equilavent is regular sword slashes ; like this ;
> 
> 
> 
> Santouryu's equilavent is G3.


There's a panel, in which Zoro does more damage with a fodder slash, than Luffy does with a hardened gatling.

Again fail.

I already showed you how Zoor's casual slashes >= G3 

On a serious note, ISDS and 1080 PC, are G4 tier moves.

Zoro can also spam hill busting slashes with ease.

Zoro mid/high diffs G2/G3.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> G2's equivalent is regular sword slashes ; like this ;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Compare their portrayal vs Carrot as well. Carrot dodged Zoro's strike. Luffy got rag dolled to death by Carrot.

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## Benn Beckman (May 22, 2016)

Onigiri was upgraded three times: 

Yaki Oni Giri.
Enbima Yonezu Onigiri.
Rengoku Oni Giri.

It isn't his weakest. It isn't his strongest either.


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## Raiden34 (May 22, 2016)

Did you also forget Zoro's portrayal against Yeti Cool Brothers ?

Luffy's portrayal ;


Zoro's portrayal ;

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## Dellinger (May 22, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Prove those opponents have durability > Hyouzou.
> I've already proved that Luffy was very serious and enraged when he punched Hyouzou.
> 
> Once again, just because X > hyouzou does not mean X's durability > Hyouzou's durability.
> ...



I have nothing to prove.You are the one who has to prove that Hyozou is even close to them.

Caesar's,Chinjao's and OD Hody's durability >>>>>Hyozou, you are literally the only guy who thinks otherwise.

Luffy was smacking Doflamingo with base punches.Are you gonna argue that Hyozou's durability is > Doflamingo's?Or that Hyozou now can take G4 attacks also?

Maybe Hyozou is on par with Fujitora because as you clearly saw yourself,Luffy was fighting and pushing Fujitora across the damn island.No wait,Hyozou is stronger,Luffy didn't push him that much.


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## Raiden34 (May 22, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Compare their portrayal vs Carrot as well. Carrot dodged Zoro's strike. Luffy got rag dolled to death by Carrot.



And later stomped her with patting her head  What the hell are you comparing here, a serious fight to a joke....

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Frankiest said:


> Onigiri was upgraded three times:
> 
> Yaki Oni Giri.
> Enbima Yonezu Onigiri.
> ...


I never said it's his weakest. I just mentioned attacks that have been portrayed as > Oni Giri.

@Erkan12, was trying to act like Zoro used his equivalent of Grizzly magnum to oneshot Hyouzou or something.

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## Dellinger (May 22, 2016)

Lmao he's using gag as legit showings now

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Lmao he's using gag as legit showings now


Sure there's a comedic element, but we shouldn't ignore that Chopper did compliment her strength for doing it. So it's more legitimate than Nami knocking out the M3.

He brought up Zoro vs Carrot.

Was merely tit for tat.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> And later stomped her with patting her head  What the hell are you comparing here, a serious fight to a joke....


Luffy couldn't fight back. Needed to pat her head, to make her release her death choke.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Did you also forget Zoro's portrayal against Yeti Cool Brothers ?
> 
> Luffy's portrayal ;
> 
> ...


This is factually correct.
However, Zoro didn't fight the YCB. He was arguing with Sanji, and got taken out by sleeping gas. This is no different from how Sanji and Co first got taken out by sleeping gas. I.e, Zoro wasn't in a fight, meanwhile Luffy fought the YCB.

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## Yuki (May 22, 2016)

What do you expect?

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## Veltpunch (May 22, 2016)

@Amon Lancelot @Erkan12  I think a big mistake you're both making (and the reason that this is going to take days to resolve) is that you're comparing them to absolute fodder. I mean, Hyozou? Carrot? Yeti Cool Bros? These are guys that they shit on. Taking a light look into the portrayals is fine, but to base your arguments on those encounters isn't wise IMO because they're dirt beneath Luffy and Zoro's soles....

I have been skimming a little. Erkan, G3 is not = Santoryu. I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion.

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## Yuki (May 23, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> @Amon Lancelot @Erkan12  I think a big mistake you're both making (and the reason that this is going to take days to resolve) is that you're comparing them to absolute fodder. I mean, Hyozou? Carrot? Yeti Cool Bros? These are guys that they shit on. Taking a light look into the portrayals is fine, but to base your arguments on those encounters isn't wise IMO because they're dirt beneath Luffy and Zoro's soles....
> 
> I have been skimming a little. Erkan, G3 is not = Santoryu. I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion.



The reason Erkan12 is bringing up fodder like Carrot and the Yeti Cool Bros is because Amon keeps bringing up Hyozou.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 23, 2016)

Let us all not forget that Zoro got outrun by sanji in nami's body.


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## Veltpunch (May 23, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> The reason Erkan12 is bringing up fodder like Carrot and the Yeti Cool Bros is because Amon keeps bringing up Hyozou.


So? They both should stop.


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## Yuki (May 23, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> So? They both should stop.



He's just answering stupidity with stupidity. 

Sometimes you need to do such dirty things.

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## Benn Beckman (May 23, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Let us all not forget that Zoro got outrun by sanji in nami's body.



Zoro didn't get much practice in running for his life

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 23, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I mean, the women's clothing could have helped. He's got experience there, no?  Not hard to believe that being in women's clothing once again motivates him more.



Of course. That doesn't change the fact that it was nami's body, subject to her limitations.

For example Bon Kurei culdn't do his kenpo in Nami's body because it had limitations.


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## Veltpunch (May 23, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Of course. That doesn't change the fact that it was nami's body, subject to her limitations.
> 
> For example Bon Kurei culdn't do his kenpo in Nami's body because it had limitations.


You're low key (or maybe high key) saying Nami is faster than Zoro, unless that's just a ridiculous "feat" you're citing to match the rest in this thread?

When was Bon Kurei in Nami's body?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 23, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> You're low key (or maybe high key) saying Nami is faster than Zoro, unless that's just a ridiculous "feat" you're citing to match the rest in this thread?
> 
> When was Bon Kurei in Nami's body?



I am obviously fucking around, since it's more of a gag moment that forwarded the plot and shouldn't be taken seriously like the rest of this bloody thread. So just play along and have some fun?

Bon Kurei while fighting sanji kept going into Nami's form to distract him, but the pitfall was that when he took her form, he couldn't use his okama kenpo since Nami's body didn't have the physical conditioning required to access it. Sanji deduced that, and used it as an opening to hit him between transformations.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 23, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Taking a light look into the portrayals is fine,


Do you agree, that using this absolute fodder, Oda has portrayed Zoro as leagues above G2/G3 Luffy?


I mean Luffy was less serious against Chinjao than he was against Hyouzou, but that didn't stop him from mid diffing Chinjao, and drawing with base Hyouzou. So this kills the "Luffy is jobbing" argument. I mean isn't it funny, that  Luffy is only "jobbing" against Opponents who have or will face Zoro 

Caesar is exempt, because Luffy lacked intel. Same result would have happened bloodlusted or not.

I mean, the only reason the opponents Luffy "jobbed" against are absolute fodder, is because Zoro fodderized them, and you guys believe G2/G3 is on Zoro's level. 

Is not my fault, that the manga author used Luffy has a hype tool for Zoro multiple times.
Deal with it.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 23, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> The reason Erkan12 is bringing up fodder like Carrot and the Yeti Cool Bros is because Amon keeps bringing up Hyozou.


Carrot vs Luffy is as legit as Zoro vs Carrot. They used the scene to hype up Carrot's strength IIRC(Which was the same with Zoro, but he still got the better portrayal. )

Hyouzou was legitimate.
I proved already, that when Luffy punched Hyouzou he was* Enraged AND Serious*.
Luffy even called Hyouzou strong. No he won't say that to anyone who nosells a jet pistol. Only others Post Skip Luffy called strong, are Inuarashi and Fujitora. 

Goddamit. You guys have ZERO, literally ZERO evidence to support your Luffy was "jobbing" fanfiction. he was dead serious. I already posted the scans. 


My claim: Hyouzou nosold a Jet Pistol, from a bloodlusted Luffy. Atleast, my claim is grounded. Luffy jobbing against Hyouzou, is nothing but a fanfiction.

Against Monet, possibly, Against Carrot, possibly. Against Hyouzou. *GODDAMN NO!!!!*
You don't realise that you're shitting on Luffy's character, if you think he was jobbing when his beloved Nakama's life was on the line.

I never said Luffy "legit" lost to Monet.He is leagues above her. The portrayal is there though. 

Once Again, proof Luffy was goddamn serious against Hyouzou:

*Spoiler*: __ 








The fact that he complimented Hyouzou specifically for tanking his attack, means that he was *serious*. Barring Hyouzou, Luffy only called Fujitora and Inuarashi strong.

Do I think Luffy can easily defeat base Hyouzou? yes.

Do I think Luffy can oneshot him with a jet pistol?
No. Because Hyouzou legit tanked a Jet Pistol from a serious Luffy.
If he wasn't serious, or the attack was "half-assed", Luffy wouldn't have complimented him for it.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 23, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I am obviously fucking around, since it's more of a gag moment that forwarded the plot and shouldn't be taken seriously like the rest of this bloody thread. So just play along and have some fun?
> 
> Bon Kurei while fighting sanji kept going into Nami's form to distract him, but the pitfall was that when he took her form, he couldn't use his okama kenpo since Nami's body didn't have the physical conditioning required to access it. Sanji deduced that, and used it as an opening to hit him between transformations.


Does it really matter? It was Sanji not Nami. Eg Sanji, can do Blue Walk in Nami's body. Zoro doesn't exactly have the best movement speed feats over long distances. Sanmi may very well have > long distance  movement speed.

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## PirateHunter Eddy (May 23, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Carrot vs Luffy is as legit as Zoro vs Carrot. They used the scene to hype up Carrot's strength IIRC(Which was the same with Zoro, but he still got the better portrayal. )
> 
> Hyouzou was legitimate.
> I proved already, that when Luffy punched Hyouzou he was* Enraged AND Serious*.
> ...



What exactly are you trying to prove by showing Luffy was serious?


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## Amon Lancelot (May 23, 2016)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> What exactly are you trying to prove by showing Luffy was serious?


That ase Hyouzou legitimately tanked a jet pistol. I.e Base Hyouzou >> Pacifista in durability(He was unscathed by tanking a jet pistol, while Pacifista was oneshotted by it).
Base Hyouzou has the reaction speed to react to a jet pistol(upon receiving the hit, he reflexively countered and cut Luffy's arm poisoning him.)

I want the above mentioned feats of base Hyouzou, to be accepted as legitimate.

Not saying that Luffy can't easily beat base Hyouzou, just that his feats should be accepted.

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## Veltpunch (May 23, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Do you agree, that using this absolute fodder, Oda has portrayed Zoro as leagues above G2/G3 Luffy?


I don't think Hyozou had anything to do with my belief that Luffy, with the introduction of G4, needs more than G2/G3 to put Zoro or Sanji down, but to say that he's leagues above G2/G3? Nah. 1. that puts way too much stock in G4 imo 2. well, actually, that's it. 




> I mean Luffy was less serious against Chinjao than he was against Hyouzou, but that didn't stop him from mid diffing Chinjao, and drawing with base Hyouzou. So this kills the "Luffy is jobbing" argument. I mean isn't it funny, that  Luffy is only "jobbing" against Opponents who have or will face Zoro


You can't compare an actual fight to a single attack attempt. Luffy was clearly more serious against DCJ. He didn't even use Haki in his G2 punches against the fishmen because he probably thought he was punching fodder (he wouldn't have been wrong). Meanwhile against DCJ, he was fighting for Ace's DF, which he wanted to acquire at any cost. He didn't draw with Hyozou. You have to realize that if he actually wanted to put Hypzou down, he'd do so effortlessly.



> I mean, the only reason the opponents Luffy "jobbed" against are absolute fodder, is because Zoro fodderized them, and you guys believe G2/G3 is on Zoro's level.


No, I think it's just because they're absolute fodder. Hyozou got spanked, Monet got scared to death. If in your eyes Luffy is 0-2 in those scenarios then you have to acknowledge that by your logic, Zoro is 0-2 against the Yeti Cool Brothers and Carrot. I don't think you want to do that.



> Is not my fault, that the manga author used Luffy has a hype tool for Zoro multiple times.
> Deal with it.


You want a *real *example of a hype tool? Look at Sanji, bless his soul. He was Vergo's then Doffy's. That's a hype tool. Luffy barely trying against a couple of opponents that Zoro ended up stomping does not = Luffy being Zoro's hype tool. With this logic, Zoro was Law's hype tool since, again, he lost to the YCBs, who Law absolutely shat on. This is following your logic.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Veltpunch (May 23, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I am obviously fucking around, since it's more of a gag moment that forwarded the plot and shouldn't be taken seriously like the rest of this bloody thread. So just play along and have some fun?
> 
> Bon Kurei while fighting sanji kept going into Nami's form to distract him, but the pitfall was that when he took her form, he couldn't use his okama kenpo since Nami's body didn't have the physical conditioning required to access it. Sanji deduced that, and used it as an opening to hit him between transformations.


Just checking. You can never be too sure on this site....

Edit: @Amon Lancelot : Hyozou didn't tank anything. He blocked it. They're different.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (May 23, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> That ase Hyouzou legitimately tanked a jet pistol. I.e Base Hyouzou >> Pacifista in durability(He was unscathed by tanking a jet pistol, while Pacifista was oneshotted by it).
> Base Hyouzou has the reaction speed to react to a jet pistol(upon receiving the hit, he reflexively countered and cut Luffy's arm poisoning him.)
> 
> I want the above mentioned feats of base Hyouzou, to be accepted as legitimate.
> ...



Hyouzou never tanked G2 he blocked it but sure it's a legitimate feat what does that prove?


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## Amon Lancelot (May 23, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Zoro is 0-2 against the Yeti Cool Brothers and Carrot. I don't think you want to do that.


I recognise Zoro's defeat against the YCB. However, he did not even know he was in a fight. It was a very different scenario. He was arguing with Sanji, and got hiit with sleeping gas. very different.

Luffy "lost" to Monet. They were in a full blown fight.
Against Hyouzou, I count it as a draw.

Hyouzou took no damage, while Luffy took insignificant damage. Luffy himself categorised it as a fight.

Zoro took no damage from Carrot, I'll call that a draw.
Luffy got ragdolled by her. The fight wasn't entirely comedic, because the scene was used to specifically hyoe up how strong Carrot is.



Veltpunch said:


> I don't think Hyozou had anything to do with my belief that Luffy, with the introduction of G4, needs more than G2/G3 to put Zoro or Sanji down, but to say that he's leagues above G2/G3? Nah. 1. that puts way too much stock in G4 imo 2. well, actually, that's it.


I've already explained my views on the growth of Zoro and Luffy during the TS. 
Zoro's growth rate ~ Luffy's
Zoro's training >> Luffy's
Zoro's growth >> Luffy's

I said portrayed to be. 
1.  Like it or not, Luffy was portrayed as a match for base Hyouzou, going so far as to call him strong and all. Monster Hyouzou >>>>> Base Hyouzou, got fodderised by Zoro.
2. Luffy "lost" against Monet.
Zoro mindraped her.
3. Luffy needed G3 Elephant pistol to push back fujitora, a decent move from him.
Zoro did same with a nameless Ittoryuu slash under extreme gravity.
4. After seeing Luffy get sent flying, Zoro was more than willing to engage Fujitora.
5. Zoro vs Carrot
Luffy getting ragdolled by carrot. Not sure how serious to take it. I'd have normally laughed it off, like Nami beating the M3, but 

Chopper commented on Carrot's strength because of it. 
Carrot was hypedas being strong because of it. 
Nami giving Luffy advice on how to get Carrot ooff him, made it look like his life is in danger.
Both scenes were obviously done to hype up Carrot, but Zoro was placed in a far better light.



Veltpunch said:


> You can't compare an actual fight to a single attack attempt. Luffy was clearly more serious against DCJ. He didn't even use Haki in his G2 punches against the fishmen because he probably thought he was punching fodder (he wouldn't have been wrong). Meanwhile against DCJ, he was fighting for Ace's DF, which he wanted to acquire at any cost. He didn't draw with Hyozou. You have to realize that if he actually wanted to put Hypzou down, he'd do so effortlessly.


The look on his face when he punched Hyouzou was livid with wrath. Sanji's life was in Danger. We know how Luffy gets about his Nakama.
 Can Luffy oneshot base Hyouzou? Yeah. Effortlessly, it depends on what you classify as efort. Zoro didn't effortlessly put Pica down.
Is a red Hawk effortless?
I don't what you classify as effortless, but if luffy was going to oneshot Hyouzou(Gatlings aren't oneshot), then I don't think he'd use lower than a red hawk or eagle bazooka(which ever one is stronger). Hyouzou was unscathed from Jet Pistol, A hawk gatling will do it though.



Veltpunch said:


> You want a *real *example of a hype tool? Look at Sanji, bless his soul. He was Vergo's then Doffy's. That's a hype tool. Luffy barely trying against a couple of opponents that Zoro ended up stomping does not = Luffy being Zoro's hype tool. With this logic, Zoro was Law's hype tool since, again, he lost to the YCBs, who Law absolutely shat on. This is following your logic.


Once Again, Luffy was enraged when he punched Hyouzou. He was not barely trying. Not going all out, definitely. Luffy didn't use his higher end moves, but he genuinely wanted to knock down Hyouzou, and was bloodlusted. So No.

Already explained why the YCBs was not a fight.


I hope you do realise, that what I use to classify fights, doesn't consider cases like the YCBs right. That would mean I have to classify Sanji and co as losing to a bunch of fodder, because they got taken out by sleeping gas. My logic does not count that as fights.

Both parties must be aware of each other's presence.
Both parties must know they're in a confrontation, or the attack from one party should be head on. 
As for carrot, I either count both Luffy and Zoro vs Carrot, or none at all.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 23, 2016)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Hyouzou never tanked G2 he blocked it but sure it's a legitimate feat what does that prove?


It looks like he got hit clean by it though. 

Luffy even said "he withstood my attack after all"

As for what Hyouzou tanking G2 prove.
I have a lot I base on this feat, which all gets discredited because "lol Hyouzou is fodder, Luffy was super casual, Luffy was jobbing, trust me, a serious Jet pistol would have knocked out Hyouzou, blah blah blah".

People even say Base Hody > Base Hyouzou.

You see, because Zoro oneshotted Monster Hyouzou, he becomes fodder. All his previous feats gets discounted. Going off Hody, Monster Hyouzou >>>>>>>>>>>>> base Hyouzou, in speed, durability, strength.

Zoro oneshotting Hyouzou should be very impressive, or Zoro bisecting all his swords, but it's not. Rather than ZOro being hyped as Oda (probably intended), Hyouzou is downplayed.

Someone told me, that Zoro can't oneshot Monster Hody.

Going off Hyouzou, I state that Zoro > Luffy in attack speed(base Hyouzou could react to G2 Luffy, Zoro bisected his 8 sword horizontally and vertically, all without Hyouzou seeing the attack, let alone being able to react. Basically Zoro bltzed him).
Zoro >> Luffy in lethality (Base Hyouzou was unscathed by G2 Luffy, a lower tier move of Zoro oneshot Monster Hyouzou)

The above inferences are trashed, by arguments like (If Luffy wanted to he'd have oneshot Hyouzou monster form or not. {Regardless of the fact that the difference in stats between base and Monster form, is like the difference between Enies Lobby Zoro and current Zoro).

It is due to the phenomenon, that once Zoro defeats an opponent he becomes fodder. If Luffy happened to fight ssaid opponent before, it becomes an outlier, an inconsistency, a non-serious Luffy, etc.)

It happened to Hyouzou,
Happened with Monet,
Happened to Pica. This one is laughable..

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## Veltpunch (May 23, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I recognise Zoro's defeat against the YCB. However, he did not even know he was in a fight. It was a very different scenario. He was arguing with Sanji, and got hiit with sleeping gas. very different.


You're so into character testimony, when he was reprimanding Luffy after finding out he lost to CC, Zoro compared his loss to he YCBs to Luffy losing to CC saying that they need to shape up.



> Luffy "lost" to Monet. They were in a full blown fight.
> Against Hyouzou, I count it as a draw.


So Monet > Luffy in an actual fight? Yes or no?

So Hyozou = Luffy in an actual fight? Yea or no?



> Hyouzou took no damage, while Luffy took insignificant damage. Luffy himself categorised it as a fight.
> 
> Zoro took no damage from Carrot, I'll call that a draw.
> Luffy got ragdolled by her. The fight wasn't entirely comedic, because the scene was used to specifically hyoe up how strong Carrot is.


He attempted to hit Hyozou once. Recall that Hyozou clads his swords in poison. Since he blocked the attack from Luffy with his sword, naturally Luffy came into contact with it. 




> I've already explained my views on the growth of Zoro and Luffy during the TS.
> Zoro's growth rate ~ Luffy's
> Zoro's training >> Luffy's
> Zoro's growth >> Luffy's


Zoro's growth rate is not equal to Luffy's. Just on the strength that he's older and is still weaker. Zoro's training was better, but not that much. That's actually another way you know Zoro's growth rate isn't the same. He clearly had the better training, but is still weaker.



> I said portrayed to be.
> 1.  Like it or not, Luffy was portrayed as a match for base Hyouzou, going so far as to call him strong and all. Monster Hyouzou >>>>> Base Hyouzou, got fodderised by Zoro.
> 2. Luffy "lost" against Monet.
> Zoro mindraped her.
> ...


1. Lol no. Blocking one basic attack from someone dos not make you equal. You probably think pre-skip Zoro was equal to Aokiji back around W7 when he blocked a super casual attack from him. Luffy would have smacked Hyozou if he would have even followed up that first G2 punch with another.

2. Again, so Monet > Luffy, or would Luffy not have stomped her if he actually wanted to?

3. Not sure what you're point is here because he actually did more to Fuji than Zoro did in that exchange.

4. That's just his nature. Luffy is the same way. They've always been like that. Didn't mean he wouldn't get his ass whooped.

5. Can't tell if serious. Chopper said she was strong? And who is Chopper exactly? That was clearly for comedy. Zoro's exchange was more serious than that one.




> The look on his face when he punched Hyouzou was livid with wrath. Sanji's life was in Danger. We know how Luffy gets about his Nakama.
> Can Luffy oneshot base Hyouzou? Yeah. Effortlessly, it depends on what you classify as efort.


And yet he used no Haki in that attack, which he now uses in every serious fight. 

A one shot is usually effortless. Not always, but usually. Luffy absolutely mercs Hyozou.



> Zoro didn't effortlessly put Pica down.


The only effort he exerted in that fight was tracking Pica down.


> Is a red Hawk effortless?
> I don't what you classify as effortless, but if luffy was going to oneshot Hyouzou(Gatlings aren't oneshot), then I don't think he'd use lower than a red hawk or eagle bazooka(which ever one is stronger). Hyouzou was unscathed from Jet Pistol, A hawk gatling will do it though.


Less than low diff or low diff is more or less effortless in my book. Hyozou blocked Jet pistol with his sword. Of course his person was unscathed. Doesn't mean that he wouldn't have been knocked out if it would have made contact. You're confusing tanking and blocking with a weapon.




> Once Again, Luffy was enraged when he punched Hyouzou. He was not barely trying. Not going all out, definitely. Luffy didn't use his higher end moves, but he genuinely wanted to knock down Hyouzou, and was bloodlusted. So No.


Intent doesn't always reflect effort. He used as much effort as he thought was necessary, which wasn't much no matter how much you emphasize Sanji's condition. No Haki, basic G2 attack. That's casual for Luffy.



> Already explained why the YCBs was not a fight.
> 
> 
> I hope you do realise, that what I use to classify fights, doesn't consider cases like the YCBs right. That would mean I have to classify Sanji and co as losing to a bunch of fodder, because they got taken out by sleeping gas. My logic does not count that as fights.
> ...


Zoro classified it as a fight. You're big on character testimony, right? This is straight from the horse's  mouth.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (May 23, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> It looks like he got hit clean by it though.
> 
> Luffy even said "he withstood my attack after all"
> 
> ...




It looks like he did but he didn't. Hyouzou's poison comes from his tentacles so it's obvious he blocked it. He was still greatly pushed back by the attack's sheer force though. Luffy calling him strong is more for the fact that he managed to respond to his jet pistol there's nothing more in that scene.



> People even say Base Hody > Base Hyouzou.
> 
> You see,* because Zoro oneshotted Monster Hyouzou, he becomes fodder. All his previous feats gets discounted.* Going off Hody, Monster Hyouzou >>>>>>>>>>>>> base Hyouzou, in speed, durability, strength.



Not really he was fodder from the start. His feat is discounted due the fact that he seemed like he was a match for Luffy when that clearly was not the case. As for Base Hyouzou being stronger than Hody I doubt that's the case but it's irrelevant seeing as both are fodder.  




> Zoro oneshotting Hyouzou should be very impressive, or Zoro bisecting all his swords, but it's not. Rather than ZOro being hyped as Oda (probably intended), Hyouzou is downplayed.



Why is that impressive? 



> Someone told me, that Zoro can't oneshot Monster Hody.
> 
> Going off Hyouzou, *I state that Zoro > Luffy in attack speed(base Hyouzou could react to G2 Luffy, Zoro bisected his 8 sword horizontally and vertically, all without Hyouzou seeing the attack, let alone being able to react. Basically Zoro bltzed him).*
> Zoro >> Luffy in lethality (Base Hyouzou was unscathed by G2 Luffy, a lower tier move of Zoro oneshot Monster Hyouzou)



Why? You can't use a single attack to make such and assertion.Not to mention Luffy also attacked from a distance so it's not really an accurate measure. 




> The above inferences are trashed, by arguments like (If Luffy wanted to he'd have oneshot Hyouzou monster form or not. {Regardless of the fact that the difference in stats between base and Monster form, is like the difference between Enies Lobby Zoro and current Zoro).



So you don't think Luffy could one shot Hyouzou? 



> It is due to the phenomenon, that once Zoro defeats an opponent he becomes fodder. If Luffy happened to fight ssaid opponent before, it becomes an outlier, an inconsistency, a non-serious Luffy, etc.)
> 
> It happened to Hyouzou,
> Happened with Monet,
> Happened to Pica. This one is laughable..



Considering the way Zoro defeated Hyouzou are you implying he was not fodder? In Monet's case I don't remember Luffy attempting to fight her. Luffy also never took Pica seriously once so I'm not sure what point you making there.


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## TheWiggian (May 23, 2016)

So much love for the great "Grandmaster" 

This gives me an immense boner guys, stop it please i need a few "swords" ... so horny


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## giantbiceps (May 24, 2016)

All these novels

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Amon Lancelot (May 24, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> You're so into character testimony, when he was reprimanding Luffy after finding out he lost to CC, Zoro compared his loss to he YCBs to Luffy losing to CC saying that they need to shape up.


I'll classify it as a loss, but it doesn't fit the criteria I use to judge portrayal. Like I said, that's like classifying Sanji's defeat by those fodder. While I'll accept it was a "loss" for Zoro, it's not something that I can use to compare portrayal, as Zoro was not in a confrontation with the YCBs.



Veltpunch said:


> So Monet > Luffy in an actual fight? Yes or no?
> 
> So Hyouzou = Luffy in an actual fight? Yea or no?


In the Arena, Luffy will stomp in those fights.

If it's Monster Hyouzou, i see him pushing Luffy to upper mid/high diff in G2/G3(This is based on the difference between Monster and base, being as big as the difference between EL Zoro and current Zoro).



Veltpunch said:


> 1. Lol no. Blocking one basic attack from someone dos not make you equal. You probably think pre-skip Zoro was equal to Aokiji back around W7 when he blocked a super casual attack from him. Luffy would have smacked Hyozou if he would have even followed up that first G2 punch with another.


Hyouzou *DID NOT *block the attack. He was hit clean. I'll edit the scan to show you, when I get on my Laptop.

Luffy wouldn't have two shot him, considering he tanked not blocked the attack. If he used a hardened gatling? Possibly.



Veltpunch said:


> Again, so Monet > Luffy, or would Luffy not have stomped her if he actually wanted to?


In the Arena, Luffy will stomp. IC Luffy I don't know. Ignoring the portrayal of Luffy vs Monet, and Zoro vs Hyouzou, and counting Sanji vs Vergo and Law vs Vergo is double standards.



Veltpunch said:


> He attempted to hit Hyozou once. Recall that Hyozou clads his swords in poison. Since he blocked the attack from Luffy with his sword, naturally Luffy came into contact with it.


Hyouzou didn't block the attack. He got hit cleanly. Luffy is cut on his arm not his fist. So No.



Veltpunch said:


> Zoro's growth rate is not equal to Luffy's. Just on the strength that he's older and is still weaker. Zoro's training was better, but not that much. That's actually another way you know Zoro's growth rate isn't the same. He clearly had the better training, but is still weaker.


Zoro's training is far better.
He had:

24 months as opposed to Luffy's 18.(33% more time with a top tier)
The stronger teacher.(I place Mihawk as an upper top tier, and Rayleigh as a lower top tier
More complete training. Rayleigh couldn't help Luffy beyond Haki, and general combat experience. Luffy had to improve his brawling style and devil fruit by himself he didn't know awakening) Mihawk could do all Rayleigh did for Luffy for Zoro and much Zoro. Teach him the way of the sword, spar with him, improve his technique, etc. Luffy had aspects Rayleigh couldn't teach him. Zoro did not.
Best possible teacher. Mihawk is the Apex of swordsmanship. Zoro's training was as good as it can possibly get. If Garp had COC, he'd have been an even better teacher for Luffy than Rayleigh.
Seeing his life ambition before him, and becoming cognizant of the difference between them, would have boosted Zoro's motivation
Zoro had the best possible training you can get in the OP world. Training doesn't get better than what Zoro got.

Zoro's training and Luffy's aren't even comparable. Zoro and Coby's are, though Zoro's was better due to Mihawk being stronger than current Garp, and the Zenith of Zoro's fighting style.


Pre TS, Zoro and Luffy had similar growth rates. So their growth rate is comparable. Nothing indicates Luffy's growth rate changed over the TS.

You can't use Zoro being weaker than Luffy has evidence for Luffy having better growth rate. Post TS, Zoro *has never *been portrayed as inferior to Luffy. You saying Luffy is stronger, is speculation at best.



Veltpunch said:


> 4. That's just his nature. Luffy is the same way. They've always been like that. Didn't mean he wouldn't get his ass whooped.


He's already fought him twice. He came out of the second confrontation unscathed. So Zoro was cognizant of whatever difference existed between him and Fujitora, and still felt he could take him on. The portrayal was that Zoro didn't consider himself inferior to Luffy.



Veltpunch said:


> 3. Not sure what you're point is here because he actually did more to Fuji than Zoro did in that exchange.


True, but Zoro was handicapped very, very, very heavily by Fujitora's extreme gravity.



Veltpunch said:


> 5. Can't tell if serious. Chopper said she was strong? And who is Chopper exactly? That was clearly for comedy. Zoro's exchange was more serious than that one.


Didn't Pedro say Carrot is stronger than your average Mink? That scene was clearly used to hype carrot up if so. Nami was also worried for Luffy's life, same with Chopper. Doesn't happen in the Nami vs Strawhats scenes. Not saying Carrot > Luffy, but there was clearly some elements of legitimacy in that confrontation, giving the reactions of the other passengers to it.



Veltpunch said:


> And yet he used no Haki in that attack, which he now uses in every serious fight.
> 
> A one shot is usually effortless. Not always, but usually. Luffy absolutely mercs Hyozou.


Against wadatsumi, he defeated him with the same punch, while being far more casual.
We don't know if he used normal COA reinforcement, without using hardening. I'm not claiming he did though.

Being serious != Going all out.

Luffy wouldn't use an elephant gatling on all his opponents would he? that doesn't mean he's not serious. I've already proved Luffy was enraged, and deadly serious when he punched Hyouzou.

With a Hawk gatling, I believe Luffy would KO base Hyouzou. Don't know the difference between a hardened jet pistol, and not, Considering Hyouzou was unscathed by the jet pistol, we don't know the upper limit of his durability, though we know the lower limit. A Hawk gatling, should be enough to put him down.



Veltpunch said:


> The only effort he exerted in that fight was tracking Pica down.


"Santoryu Ougi: Ichidai Sanzen Daisen Sekai!!!" That is Zoro's strongest shown move to date. It's his strongest Santoryu tech. If you consider that effortless, and an elephant gatling from Luffy effortless, then yes Luffy can effortlessly beat Monster Hyouzou(if EGG manages to land).



Veltpunch said:


> Less than low diff or low diff is more or less effortless in my book. Hyozou blocked Jet pistol with his sword. Of course his person was unscathed. Doesn't mean that he wouldn't have been knocked out if it would have made contact. You're confusing tanking and blocking with a weapon.


Hyouzou *DID NOT *block the attack. He was hit clean by it!!!


Veltpunch said:


> Intent doesn't always reflect effort. He used as much effort as he thought was necessary, which wasn't much no matter how much you emphasize Sanji's condition. No Haki, basic G2 attack. That's casual for Luffy.


I agree. Luffy used a basic G2 attack, jet pistol. However, Luffy was serious with the attack. Luffy wasn't pulling his punch. The attack was not any weaker, than if he used it on doflamingo/Chinjao/Caesar/Hody/<insert character here>. Can we atleast agree on this? That was my point of proving Luffy was enraged when he punched Hyouzou.


Veltpunch said:


> Zoro classified it as a fight. You're big on character testimony, right? This is straight from the horse's mouth.


He did, and I'll classify it as Zoro's first New World loss. But I've explained why I can't use it as a comparison of portrayal.

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## Veltpunch (May 24, 2016)

@Amon Lancelot I'll respond later.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 24, 2016)

@Veltpunch, you should probably read this:


PirateHunter Eddy said:


> It looks like he did but he didn't. Hyouzou's poison comes from his tentacles so it's obvious he blocked it. He was still greatly pushed back by the attack's sheer force though. Luffy calling him strong is more for the fact that he managed to respond to his jet pistol there's nothing more in that scene.


Hyouzou was hit clean by it.
Luffy is cut on his arm, not his fist. If he had been cut when Hyouzou blocked the punch, the cut would be on his arm.
Hyouzou said he reflexively poisoned Luffy. \Which means after the attack, he reflexively countered and poisoned Luffy.
Luffy praised him, for withstanding the attack. Not for blocking/dodging it.

Nothing even suggests he blocked it, not even the goddamn panel. The ony thing suggesting he blocked it, is that Luffy is poisoned. But even this doesn't suggest he blocked it, as the cut is not on Luffy's hand, but his arm.

No this is wrong. Oda legitimately portrayed him as a legitimate opponent for Luffy. He legitimately nosold a jet pistol. 

Nothing indicates base Hody was stronger. he got blitzed and one shotted by a nameless Ittoryuu Iai technique from Zoro, while underwater. He ended up overdosing on the Energy  steroids, just to quell the pain. Zoro didn't even put on his bandana.
Hyouzou, nosold a jet pistol from Luffy, reacted and countered poisoning Luffy, and Luffy called him strong. The only other opponents \Luffy called strong, were Fujitora and Inuarashi.

The only reason you believe he's fodder, is because Zoro fodderised him. Doflamingo gave smoker and Sanji the Hyouzou treatment, does that mean Smoker and Sanji are fodder? Up until Hyouzou faced Zoro, he was indubitably >> New Fishman Pirates. Even the great Wadatsumi, was defeated by same Jet pistol, from a much more casual Luffy. Hyouzou who was portrayed as a threat to Lufffy, hyped up by Luffy himself, etc was fodderized by Zoro, therefore all his feats are discounted.

The fact  that you don't believe Base Hyouzou >> Base Hody, s just. . 
Hyouzou had more hype than Hody, being the strongest Swordsman in FI, while base Hody was weaker than all 3 Neptune brothers, and was just an outstanding soldier in Neptune's army.

Luffy called Hyouzou strong, and walked away from his fight with him, injured and poisoned, albeit insignificant injuries.
Hyouzou left his fight with Luffy, unscathed and complaining about how he didn't mean to poison Luffy. Indicating he could do more if he tried. Hyouzou was portrayed as holding back against Luffy, because he wasn't allowed to kill him.
Hody got blitzed and one shotted underwater(Where he's twice as strong and fast, and Zoro is 5.415 times slower), by a Zoro who was holding his breath, and hadn't tied his bandana.
Yet somehow Hyouzou !>> Hody? 

You do realise the only way this is possible, is if Zoro >>> Luffy.

Here's your logic.
Premise 1: Luffy > Zoro
Premise 2: Base Hyouzou was portrayed as a legitimate opponent for Luffy
Premise 3: Zoro fodderized Monster Hyouzou who's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Base Hyouzou
Conclusion: Premise 2 is an outlier/inconsistency, Luffy could have fodderised Hyouzou even easier than Zoro.

Your first premise is Luffy > Zoro, which is why no matter how many times Oda may portray Zoro >>> Luffy/Zoro >> Luffy/Zoro > Luffy, you won't see it. You've already decided Luffy is the stronger one, which is why all these bullshit excuses are being made.

Hyouzou is not even an outlier, it happened again with Monet, again with Carrot, etc. Because you've decided Luffy > Zoro, no matter what arguments are thrown at you, you'd fail to concede.

To exemplify your thinking, Pica is >~ Vergo. (> due to situational advantages).
yet, because Sanji should at least be able to push Zoro to high diff, and because Sanji was portrayed as inferior to a vastly restricted Vergo, Vergo >>> Pica.
That's what started all this Pica is fodder BS. Despite Sanji lacking the feats to even significantly damage Pica(Pica tanked a 1080 PC, without haki), and when hardened required a mountain buster to put down. Not to talk of isolating Pica from the Golem, Or find Pica within the golem, _"Sanji defeats Pica and does it easier than Zoro."_

The arguments disgust me.
Your arguments are just as bad as: Sanji could have escaped Fuji's gravity because Zoro did. Zoro would have been fodderised by Doffy, just like Sanji, etc. 

Until you can *PROVE *Luffy > Zoro, you might as well accept the blatantly obvious portrayal that Zoro >> Luffy pre G4.


PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Why is that impressive?


Base Hyouzou was unscathed from a jet pistol, and could react to said jet pistol. Furthermore, base Hyouzou was called strong by Luffy, a compliment he has only other awarded to fujitora and Inuarashi post TS.

Monster Hyouzou >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Base Hyouzou.
It's like Luffy fighting east blue |Sanji,
the Zoro fodderises current Sanji.



PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Why? You can't use a single attack to make such and assertion.Not to mention Luffy also attacked from a distance so it's not really an accurate measure.


The speed difference between base and Monster form, overcompensated for whatever inaccuracy again.
to enlighten you, imagine base Hyouzou as East Blue Sanji, and Monster as current Sanji.



PirateHunter Eddy said:


> So you don't think Luffy could one shot Hyouzou?


Base Hyouzou => East Blue Sanji
Monster Hyouzou => Current Sanji.

If East Blue Sanji, was unscathed by a jet pistol from a serious Luffy, do you think Luffy would be able to oneshot current Sanji?
In durability and endurance, Monster Hyouzou >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base Hyouzou(Nosold a jet pistol) >> Pacifista



PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Considering the way Zoro defeated Hyouzou are you implying he was not fodder? In Monet's case I don't remember Luffy attempting to fight her. Luffy also never took Pica seriously once so I'm not sure what point you making there.


The fanbase considers Pica fodder, despit him being at least ~ Vergo. because Zoro fodderised him.
Define fodder.
Monster Hyouzou is fodder to post Skip Zoro, but so have all his opponents barring Fujitora.

Are you trying to imply, that Oda suddenly decided to start giving Zoro fodder to fight post Skip.
Vergo is fodder to Zoro(The fight will be over much faster and quicker than vs Pica).
Is he fodder?
If you classify Vergo as fodder, then yes Monster Hyouzou is fodder. But if you don't, then please define fodder.

Zoro fodderises Vergo. Does that make Vergo fodder.

It's not a case of Zoro's opponents being too weak, but rather Zoro being too strong.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Amon Lancelot (May 24, 2016)

@Veltpunch, @PirateHunter Eddy, now that Luffy has G4, you can forget about my comment on proving Luffy > Zoro. All my feats and portrayal were outside G4.

My stand current Zoro > G2/G3 Luffy by feats,
and >> G2/G3 Luffy by portrayal.

Overall, I'll say Zoro vs G2/g3 would be an upper mid/lower high diff win for current Zoro  by feats.
 Counting portrayal as well, my overall analysis is that Zoro solidly mid diffs G2/G3 Luffy.

Now that G4 is here, it would make Zero sense to compare current Zoro to him, so I'll abstain.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## TheWiggian (May 24, 2016)

Oh my god, so many feats and such a great portrayal inside Zoros anus. Iam so horny right now.


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## giantbiceps (May 24, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> @Veltpunch, you should probably read this:
> 
> Hyouzou was hit clean by it.
> Luffy is cut on his arm, not his fist. If he had been cut when Hyouzou blocked the punch, the cut would be on his arm.
> ...



You have any proof ?

Reactions: Like 2


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## HisMajestyMihawk (May 25, 2016)

giantbiceps said:


> You have any proof ?



Because I'm the best poster and I say that Mihawk high diffs Ray who mid diffs Shanks

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## HisMajestyMihawk (May 25, 2016)

Oda himself considers Zoro to be stronger than Luffy at the moment

all the denial from haters is

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 2


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## Amon Lancelot (May 26, 2016)

giantbiceps said:


> You have any proof ?


Any proof of what?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## SpiRo (May 26, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Oda himself considers Zoro to be stronger than Luffy at the moment
> 
> all the denial from haters is


Made me laugh 

On a serious note

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## oHush (Sep 23, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Not even G4 can make him wild enough here


Lmfao. Dont fight a man who got nothing to lose.


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## oHush (Sep 23, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> G4 Luffy wins with high diff by the nature of G4 and it's drawbacks.
> 
> G2/3 doesn't seem like it can put down someone like Zoro.


Yes. I agree. Luffy needs to go to G4 to win.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 23, 2016)

Zoro is stronger than Luffy with no gear 4. Which is exactly why he's been able to stomp the fools who Luffy couldn't one shot with a jet pistol, or whatever basic ass shit Luffy does nowadays against fodder. Gear 2 pistols in my eyes are like Luffy's regular attacks. You can't really compare it to the stuff Zoro does to the fodder. Everytime Zoro defeated those fodders it was a named attack. Has Luffy ever really wrecked someone worth mentioning with just his gear 2 pistol? I'm not downplaying Luffy's gear 2 and 3 though. People like Hyouzou is definitely not tanking a Gear 2 gattling or whatever other real moves Luffy uses. Luffy jet pistols like it's an all you can eat buffet but you never see Zoro just regular slashing named characters be it fodder or not.


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