# Kisame vs. Kakashi



## Kai (Sep 2, 2013)

Location: Island Turtle
Distance: 15 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: Waterdome, Kamui for offense.

How does current Kakashi's base game fare against Kisame?


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## Ersa (Sep 2, 2013)

Without offensive Kamui I'm inclined to think Kisame takes this, unlike Suigetsu Kisame doesn't seem to be weak to Raiton, he was capable of reacting to B so Kakashi should be easy for him and he has a mass of chakra to spam various Suiton to pressure Kakashi. The lake he spawned against Gai should come in handy here and if he manages to nail Kakashi with Daikodan it's all over, granted Kakashi can still win with a RKB feint and Raikiri to the head but I think Kisame comes out on top.

With Kamui however I think Kakashi edges it out.


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## Mercurial (Sep 2, 2013)

Hachibi V2 Bee blitzed Kisame with V2 Shunshin + Lariat; Kakashi blitzed some Sharingan and Rin'negan enhanced V2 Bijuu with Shunshin + Raikiri, landing Raikiri and after cutting through their attacks with Raiden... at 15 mt, Kisame would be blitzed and cut in half with Raiden or lose his heart from Raikiri; Kage Bunshin or Sharingan genjutsu would also help the blitz

This fight would be more difficult if the starting distance was bigger, because that way that wouldn't be easy at all for Kakashi to come near enough for the Raikiri/Raiden blitz

If Kakashi's MS weren't restricted to just defense, Kakashi would solo even a long range battle with Kamui


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## Kind of a big deal (Sep 2, 2013)

I'll go with Kisame.

Kakashi can't copy Kisame's moves, because it would be too large a toll on his chakra reserves. Well, he could, but what's the point anyway? If they drown each other, Kisame will always win out.
Since Kisame survived Hirodura, Kakashi would have to use something even bigger to damage him, jutsu-wise. Also, he can likely heal himself back. I mean, lightning clones are well and good but they also drain Kakashi's chakra reserves like crazy, it's never going to be on that scale of damage to compare to Hirodura, and there's the off-chance that either Kisame's skin, or Samehada absorbs the chakra anyway.

And to circumvent his resillience, Kakashi could try to cut him, but even Bee couldn't manage, and he was clearly superior to Sasuke, whom we more or less consider to be on Kakashi's level. Does Kakashi really have what it takes to get in striking range from Kisame so he can use chidori? At best, that's debatable.

To top it off, Kakashi doesn't have his usual speed advantage over his opponents at jutsu seals and in hand to hand combat. Kisame did pull off Daikodan (one of his biggest moves) as fast as 7 gates Gai can do an airpunch.

The only thing I can think of, is use Kamui on Samehada, if the OP allows that as a defensive move. And that doesn't even defeat Kisame but does make him less difficult to deal with.
And possibly a genjutsu, but last time he used it if I remember correctly, was on academy Sakura, and she broke out of it eventually anyway. We can hope and assume that an S-ranked mercenary veteran like Kisame would be at least as good as that.


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## Kai (Sep 2, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> Hachibi V2 Bee blitzed Kisame with V2 Shunshin + Lariat; Kakashi blitzed some Sharingan and Rin'negan enhanced V2 Bijuu with Shunshin + Raikiri, landing Raikiri and after cutting through their attacks with Raiden... at 15 mt, Kisame would be blitzed and cut in half with Raiden or lose his heart from Raikiri; Kage Bunshin or Sharingan genjutsu would also help the blitz
> 
> This fight would be more difficult if the starting distance was bigger, because that way that wouldn't be easy at all for Kakashi to come near enough for the Raikiri/Raiden blitz
> 
> If Kakashi's MS weren't restricted to just defense, Kakashi would solo even a long range battle with Kamui


It's more complicated than that.

Kisame was able to fight Bee in base and even V1 in close quarters because Samehada was there to rob all enemy chakra.

Kakashi's visible Raiton chakra will be absorbed immediately to protect Kisame.


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## trance (Sep 2, 2013)

Without Kamui, how is Kakashi supposed to win?

Kisame is stronger, much more durable and has _infinitely_ more chakra via Samehada. He may be slower but he's fought on par with Gai at only 30% of his chakra and can react to V2 Bee (who gains a massive speed boost in V2). Kisame is also fairly intelligent in battle and can analyze Kakashi's elemental ninjutsu and figure out its weaknesses.

I'd give this to Kisame mid-high difficulty.


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## ThunderCunt (Sep 2, 2013)

I seriously doubt kakashi would  be able to defeat kisame on his own without plot no jutsu.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Could Kakashi electrocute Kisame's suitons with his Raitons? But yeah, Kakashi needs to be able to warp Kisame to win, and Samehada is pretty dangerous for someone with Kakashi's chakra reserves, and Kisame could tank quite a few Raitons.

Kisame with mid-high difficulty.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 2, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> *Hachibi V2 Bee blitzed Kisame with V2 Shunshin + Lariat;* Kakashi blitzed some Sharingan and Rin'negan enhanced V2 Bijuu with Shunshin + Raikiri, landing Raikiri and after cutting through their attacks with Raiden... at 15 mt, Kisame would be blitzed and cut in half with Raiden or lose his heart from Raikiri; Kage Bunshin or Sharingan genjutsu would also help the blitz
> 
> This fight would be more difficult if the starting distance was bigger, because that way that wouldn't be easy at all for Kakashi to come near enough for the Raikiri/Raiden blitz
> 
> If Kakashi's MS weren't restricted to just defense, Kakashi would solo even a long range battle with Kamui



Only problem is Killer B never blitzed Kisame in the sense he was incapable of doing anything to avoid it. 

Kisame physically reacted fine as he moved Samehada into position to brace the impact and analyzed the situation just fine, where _he_ fucked up is realizing to late the V2 simply had to much chakra to shave in one go... and he payed the price

In regards to the match, a _Kamui_ less Kakashi gets steam rolled. for the reason state above. Kisame has a infinitely larger chakra pool, negates all of Kakashi's ninjutsu and the fact that Kisame himself is also highly analytical


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 2, 2013)

Kakashi's speed advantage won't allow him to hard press Kisame, but it surely will allow him to react and outmanuver him @ times but again, CQC against Kisame, who is alot stronger and more durable,is not a good idea.

Also another problem is Kisame can alter the landscape @ will, he can turn it into a lake and he has shown some decent mobility on water. Once it becomes Kisame's turf, Kakashi will be overpowered eventually.
I'd say Kisame with mid difficulty.


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## Axiom (Sep 2, 2013)

Kisame has feats of straight up beating out V1 3-Tailed Bee, along with trading with V2 8-Tailed (I think?) Bee.  Those are fantastic, but it's important to note that Bee was blitzing in a linear fashion from straight ahead.  Kisame needed only to swing Samehada in front of him and Bee was hit.

If Kakashi tries to just do a head on blitz, he'll obviously fail.  However, an actual taijutsu exchange is entirely different.  Manga knowledge would dictate that Kakashi knows Samehada's ability and will try to avoid it to the best of his abilities.  The part 1 incarnations of Kisame and Asuma were pretty even in actual CQC, and Asuma actually got a scratch in.  I think it's reasonable to assume that Kakashi would be even better than Asuma in such exchanges, and I really don't think it's beyond Kakashi's abilities to do something like he did to Zabuza where he just Raikiri's Kisame's arm off, or hits him in a vital area.  Kisame is all about winning CQC trades, as shown with Shoten Kisame Vs Base Gai and on numerous instances of Kisame Vs Bee, but Kakashi should be agile enough to replicate and improve upon Asuma's feats, given his performance against Obito in Kamuiland and the V2 Jins.

So if Kakashi and Kisame engage in a CQC skirmish, I could see the more maneuverable Kakashi winning out.  If they fight from a range, Kakashi gets overwhelmed pretty quickly.


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## Kisame (Sep 2, 2013)

Axiom said:


> The part 1 incarnations of Kisame and Asuma were pretty even in actual CQC


?

Kisame injured his arm with the tip of his blade.


> and Asuma actually got a scratch in.


Kakashi doesn't have invisible Jutsu.


> I think it's reasonable to assume that Kakashi would be even better than Asuma in such exchanges


What is this based on?

Asuma is a tier in strength above Kakashi, and he was *miserably* overpowered by Kisame.

He has the same Taijutsu score, and has better weapons that could turn invisible.


> and I really don't think it's beyond Kakashi's abilities to do something like he did to Zabuza where he just Raikiri's Kisame's arm off


Maybe because Kisame is above Zabuza in CQC?

Or that Samehada would absorb Raikiri?


> or hits him in a vital area.





> Kisame is all about winning CQC trades, as shown with Shoten Kisame Vs Base Gai and on numerous instances of Kisame Vs Bee, but Kakashi should be agile enough to replicate and improve upon Asuma's feats


I don't understand how you named people superior to Kakashi in CQC and then mention Kakashi's "agility" as the turnaround of this battle...

And improve on what feats? Getting grossly overpowered with one arm? Or does Kakashi have invisible Jutsu to scratch Kisame with?


> So if Kakashi and Kisame engage in a CQC skirmish, I could see the more maneuverable Kakashi winning out.


There is absolutely no way in hell Kakashi is beating Kisame in CQC. Kakashi cannot afford to block (as we've seen with Gai and Asuma) while Kisame *can*, and Kisame has proven speed is not relevant against him, has better range, better durability, incredible reactions/reflexes like dodging and blocking Bee's interception attempts (those are impressive because interceptions are much harder to react to).

As a side note: Kisame can instantly switch the battle into Ninjutsu and there is nothing Kakashi can do about it if neither *G*_*ai*_ nor *Asuma* could.


> If they fight from a range, Kakashi gets overwhelmed pretty quickly.


And considering how Kisame is willing to switch the battle to Ninjutsu after a simple scratch from Asuma (also notice Asuma couldn't stop him)....


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## zimmawannatuba (Sep 2, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Kisame has feats of straight up beating out V1 3-Tailed Bee, along with trading with V2 8-Tailed (I think?) Bee.  Those are fantastic, but it's important to note that Bee was blitzing in a linear fashion from straight ahead.  Kisame needed only to swing Samehada in front of him and Bee was hit.
> 
> If Kakashi tries to just do a head on blitz, he'll obviously fail.  However, an actual taijutsu exchange is entirely different.  Manga knowledge would dictate that Kakashi knows Samehada's ability and will try to avoid it to the best of his abilities.  The part 1 incarnations of Kisame and Asuma were pretty even in actual CQC, and Asuma actually got a scratch in.  I think it's reasonable to assume that Kakashi would be even better than Asuma in such exchanges, and I really don't think it's beyond Kakashi's abilities to do something like he did to Zabuza where he just Raikiri's Kisame's arm off, or hits him in a vital area.  Kisame is all about winning CQC trades, as shown with Shoten Kisame Vs Base Gai and on numerous instances of Kisame Vs Bee, but Kakashi should be agile enough to replicate and improve upon Asuma's feats, given his performance against Obito in Kamuiland and the V2 Jins.
> 
> So if Kakashi and Kisame engage in a CQC skirmish, I could see the more maneuverable Kakashi winning out.  If they fight from a range, Kakashi gets overwhelmed pretty quickly.



Ohh BS.  Linear fashion...  ROFL!!!


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## Axiom (Sep 2, 2013)

The instance of Kisame overpowering Asuma happened because A)Asuma didn't have knowledge of Kisame's strength or Samehada's suction properties and B)Asuma had to protect Kurenai.  Neither of these apply to Kakashi.  And after neither of them applied to Asuma, he was able to dodge Kisame's broad swings up close and then scratch him.  It's true that he only managed to do so because he extended his chakra blades as a surprise attack, but he was also aiming for Kisame's head, which is a helluva lot harder to hit than the torso.  And Asuma may have the same score in taijutsu, but he doesn't have the sharingan, nor does he have Kakashi's impressive feats.  Again, Asuma was able to dance around Samehada when he knew at least a bit about it.  Kakashi, with superior reactions, should be able to do so even more easily.  Gai, Asuma, and Bee all made the mistake of trying to trade with or block Kisame.  Kakashi knows not to do so, so he won't.  He'll dodge even more easily than Asuma did, and it really shouldn't be too hard to counter attack with a Raikiri.  Notice Asuma found space to counter attack.  Raikiri can't be blocked by Kisame himself, and I have a hard time believing he'd be able to move his entire torso/chest/whatever Kakashi aims at away from a close up Raikiri after swinging Samehada.

All of this is nothing to say of RKB, KB, or Genjutsu.


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## zimmawannatuba (Sep 2, 2013)

Axiom said:


> The instance of Kisame overpowering Asuma happened because A)Asuma didn't have knowledge of Kisame's strength or Samehada's suction properties and B)Asuma had to protect Kurenai.  Neither of these apply to Kakashi.  And after neither of them applied to Asuma, he was able to dodge Kisame's broad swings up close and then scratch him.  It's true that he only managed to do so because he extended his chakra blades as a surprise attack, but he was also aiming for Kisame's head, which is a helluva lot harder to hit than the torso.  And Asuma may have the same score in taijutsu, but he doesn't have the sharingan, nor does he have Kakashi's impressive feats.  Again, Asuma was able to dance around Samehada when he knew at least a bit about it.  Kakashi, with superior reactions, should be able to do so even more easily.  Gai, Asuma, and Bee all made the mistake of trying to trade with or block Kisame.  Kakashi knows not to do so, so he won't.  He'll dodge even more easily than Asuma did, and it really shouldn't be too hard to counter attack with a Raikiri.  Notice Asuma found space to counter attack.  Raikiri can't be blocked by Kisame himself, and I have a hard time believing he'd be able to move his entire torso/chest/whatever Kakashi aims at away from a close up Raikiri after swinging Samehada.
> 
> All of this is nothing to say of RKB, KB, or Genjutsu.



All I hear is a load of excuses and BS to protect your bias viewpoints.

Kisame stomps.


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## Axiom (Sep 2, 2013)

Shouldn't you have been banned by now


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## zimmawannatuba (Sep 2, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Shouldn't you have been banned by now



They don't ban people like me who use facts.
Fan fiction people like you should be wary though.


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## kakashibeast (Sep 2, 2013)

Kakashi should win this high def at max


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## IchLiebe (Sep 2, 2013)

Technically Kisame doesn't have samehada, Bee took it from him and was alive and fought without it.


Kakashi should take with kage bunshins, raiton bunshins, genjutsu, rakiri, rakiri chain, rakiri lightning beast, and many more tools in his vast array of jutsus and weaponry.

To counter the lake all he has to do is channel lightning throughout to paralyze Kisame then follow up with an array of attacks.


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## zimmawannatuba (Sep 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Technically Kisame doesn't have samehada, Bee took it from him and was alive and fought without it.
> 
> 
> Kakashi should take with kage bunshins, raiton bunshins, genjutsu, rakiri, rakiri chain, rakiri lightning beast, and many more tools in his vast array of jutsus and weaponry.
> ...



You can't take away his sword unless its in the OP.
Also, a little electricity dispersed throughout a giant lake is about as dangerous as the static shock you get on a door knob.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 2, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> You can't take away his sword unless its in the OP.
> Also, a little electricity dispersed throughout a giant lake is about as dangerous as the static shock you get on a door knob.



Yes I can, he lost access to it in the manga before his death and even went on to fight without it. Unless you give him Samehada in the OP then he doesn't have. Just like how Itachi doesn't have KotoA, Naruto does.

Technically if it is perfectly distilled water electricity can not flow through it, but since it interacts with the molecules and minerals of the ground it is based upon electricity would flow quite well. And lightning is a much more powerful variation of electricity, so it should flow quite well and atleast stun Kisame.

And you do know Lightning is technically static electricity.

I have been hurt by static electricity before. Not really hurt but it did paralyze my arm for 2 hours and was kinda painful.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Can't Kakashi also warp himself if it comes to that?


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## Kisame (Sep 2, 2013)

Axiom said:


> The instance of Kisame overpowering Asuma happened because A)Asuma didn't have knowledge of Kisame's strength


Let's assume he did, what would happen?

He would choose not to engage Kisame in CQC in the first place, because he would get owned. 


> B)Asuma had to protect Kurenai.


Kurenai's presence affects Asuma's strength?

Shouldn't this have more of a "macho effect" on Asuma and increase his strength tenfold to protect his loved one? 


> Neither of these apply to Kakashi.


Yes: Kakashi is weaker than Asuma.


> he was able to dodge Kisame's broad swings up close and then scratch him.


Kisame also dodged his hits.

Kakashi will also dodge no problem, but he will be fucked eventually.



> Gai, Asuma, and Bee all made the mistake of trying to trade with or block Kisame. Kakashi knows not to do so, so he won't.


What you're missing is that that is easier said than done.

And you're also implying that Gai, Bee and Asuma _chose_ to block, which assumes a character will not choose to dodge unless he has knowledge the other guy would fuck him up.


> He'll dodge even more easily than Asuma did, and it really shouldn't be too hard to counter attack with a Raikiri. Notice Asuma found space to counter attack.  Raikiri can't be blocked by Kisame himself, and I have a hard time believing he'd be able to move his entire torso/chest/whatever Kakashi aims at away from a close up Raikiri after swinging Samehada.


Raikiri can be dodged and absorbed.

This is like saying "Hidan gets beaheaded by x character" which assumes a critical hit is easy to accomplish in a CQC...

And Kisame cannot be stopped from switching the battle to Ninjutsu at whatever time he pleases, even in the midst of a heated Taijutsu encounter, the feats and the willingness of Kisame to do that at the slightest hint of danger have been referred to in Manga panels.


> All of this is nothing to say of RKB


Absorbed


> KB, or Genjutsu.


KB is a supporting technique, you can't just mention it without explaining how it would apply. Another thing is that Kakashi's Genjutsu was never present in important battles.

If this battle becomes a Ninjutsu battle, Kakashi is dead. And considering that is inevitable...

Another thing is that Kakashi is a very well known character, so I don't see a reason why Kisame would play around...


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## Veo (Sep 2, 2013)

Kakashi's mastery of genjutsu would be an asset. Kisame has shown to be sensitive to this kind of technique.


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## Axiom (Sep 2, 2013)

Shark said:


> Let's assume he did, what would happen?
> 
> He would choose not to engage Kisame in CQC in the first place, because he would get owned.
> 
> ...



But after obtaining knowledge of Kisame's strength, he did stay in CQC.  And what's more is that he scratched Kisame before Kisame himself made the decision to turn to ninjutsu.  And no, Kurenai's presence didn't affect his strength (I'm not arguing that Kakashi or Asuma are remotely close to Kisame in physical strength, that would be silly), but it did mean that he had to block Kisame's strike (to protect Kurenai) as opposed to just outright avoiding it altogether, as I'm suggesting Kakashi would do.

You say Kakashi will dodge and will be fucked eventually, I say he won't be fucked eventually .  As I said, Asuma was able to counter attack Kisame.  Kisame did indeed dodge for all intents and purposes, but perhaps Kakashi strikes faster than Asuma.  And anyway, Asuma was aiming at the head--it would be easier to tag Kisame if Kakashi just aimed a Raikiri at the stomach area.

In the case of Bee, he definitely didn't think to dodge Kisame's blows.  He's a tank in his own right and he just wanted to straight overpower Bee.  With regards to Asuma, he couldn't dodge because, as I said earlier, that would have meant Kurenai would have been hit.  If you look at the page where Asuma blocks Kisame, he's standing directly in front of Kurenai.  And in the case of Gai, I think he also chose to block.  He is one of the strongest characters in the manga in his own right and was using his nunchuks.

The point is, Kakashi has knowledge of Samehada's chakra sucking.  He should choose to dodge just like Asuma did.  It's true that this is no easy task, but Kakashi is really good in taijutsu.  I would contend that he can indeed dance around Kisame and tag him with Raikiri before Kisame tags him with Samehada.  I just think Kakashi is better at that type of thing.

KB can do whatever Kakashi wants it too.  As confident as I am that Kakashi can out maneuver Kisame in CQC, two Kakashi's should definitely be able to tag Kisame with a combined effort.  Alternatively, the real Kakashi or the KB could go underground and come up from behind Kisame and launch a surprise attack.  Two Kakashi's are better than one any way you look at it

And as the last point, to the Kakashi can't stop Kisame from making it a ninjutsu fight, I never said he can.  If Kisame chooses to go the ninjutsu route, he'll win.  But I'd say it's like 50/50 as to whether or not Kisame decides to resort to Suitons before Kakashi tags him with Raikiri.  Kisame has a lot of confidence in his CQC abilities, after all.  He's resorted to suitons after: 1.Asuma scratched him 2.Kirabi destroyed his midsection and 3.he faced Gai for the 3rd time, after Gai had blitzed him in their 2nd encounter.  If Kakashi lands a non-fatal Raikiri on Kisame, Kisame will probably step back and beat him with suitons, but if Kakashi's first Raikiri affords him a large enough advantage to kill Kisame soon after, then Kakashi wins.

I think it's a fairly even fight.  I have a lot of faith in Kakashi's CQC abilities after he trashed MS/Rinnegan Obito in Kamuiland.


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## wooly Eullerex (Sep 2, 2013)

kakashi has no advantages w/o plot shenanigans(copying jutsu?)
 30% kisames doton, kuchiyose, suiton & bunshin feats all far surpass kakashis

this isn't much of a debate w/o offensive kamui...and then theres  kisames stamina, durability & samehada

kisame wins, low  diff.


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## Bonly (Sep 2, 2013)

Depends on what you mean by offensive Kamui and everything that revolves around it as it might not make much of a difference.


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## zimmawannatuba (Sep 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Yes I can, he lost access to it in the manga before his death and even went on to fight without it. Unless you give him Samehada in the OP then he doesn't have. Just like how Itachi doesn't have KotoA, Naruto does.
> 
> Technically if it is perfectly distilled water electricity can not flow through it, but since it interacts with the molecules and minerals of the ground it is based upon electricity would flow quite well. And lightning is a much more powerful variation of electricity, so it should flow quite well and atleast stun Kisame.
> 
> ...



No you can't.  He has had it far longer than not, and it has been a staple in his fighting style.  The fact he lost it at the end proves nothing.

I mean shit, he only lost it a couple minutes before his death.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Depends on what you mean by offensive Kamui and everything that revolves around it as it might not make much of a difference.



Defensive still means Kakashi can warp himself if he gets into trouble. It also means he can warp away attacks that are coming towards him, problem is Kisame's attacks are huge, and he can really only warp away himself, which he can only do a few times.


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## P3IN (Sep 2, 2013)

Kisame should take this, he was fighting on par and reacting to  bee, and fought gai at 30 percent and he's way more durable 

Kisame mid/high diff at most...


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## Bonly (Sep 2, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Defensive still means Kakashi can warp himself if he gets into trouble. It also means he can warp away attacks that are coming towards him, problem is Kisame's attacks are huge, and he can really only warp away himself, which he can only do a few times.



I was asking the OP.


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## ShinobisWill (Sep 2, 2013)

I think people forget that Kamui-less Kakashi fought equally as effective as 6 Gated Gai against V2 Bijuu, and 6th Gated Gai handed Kisame his ass twice. Once with a weakened clone, but again when he was simply fending off Kisames tactics to get information sent out to sea _while fighting him_, and _while_ Kisame had the field advantage quite literally.

Kakashi getting to use Kamui defensively just puts the nail in the coffin for Kisame. Kakashi used Kamui 5 times on top of tons of CQC w/sharingan and many other jutsus with his full, unaltered tank of chakra. So Kakashi gets a lot of saves with Kamui.

Kakashi, high difficulty.

Sasuke (without curse mark) was weakened against Bee before he even started fighting. Even Juugo noticed it. I highly doubt Base Bee is much, if at all stronger than base Sasuke at full power. So judging Bee and Sasuke's fight and comparing to Kisame and Bee's fight is a very weak argument.


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## zimmawannatuba (Sep 2, 2013)

ShinobisWill said:


> I think people forget that Kamui-less Kakashi fought equally as effective as 6 Gated Gai against V2 Bijuu, and 6th Gated Gai handed Kisame his ass twice. Once with a weakened clone, but again when he was simply fending off Kisames tactics to get information sent out to sea _while fighting him_, and _while_ Kisame had the field advantage quite literally.
> 
> Kakashi getting to use Kamui defensively just puts the nail in the coffin for Kisame. Kakashi used Kamui 5 times on top of tons of CQC w/sharingan and many other jutsus with his full, unaltered tank of chakra. So Kakashi gets a lot of saves with Kamui.
> 
> ...



Yah, you are exaggerating what actually happened with the jin.

Fight with Kisame.
#1 Weak clone
#2 No sword

Guy is also like the worst possible match up with Kisame as well.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I was asking the OP.



My bad.


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## Bonly (Sep 3, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> My bad.



It's ok, just pledge your allegiance to Our King, Lord Itachi and all shall be forgiven


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## ShinobisWill (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> Yah, you are exaggerating what actually happened with the jin.
> 
> Fight with Kisame.
> #1 Weak clone
> ...



Absolute bullshit. The manga is right there and established. You see what you want to see because you don't like the alternative. If the feats weren't there, I wouldn't bring them up. 

Take your ridiculous, biased goggles off and start debating with actual merit.

Fight with Kisame:

1: Weak clone, but has no speed changes.

2: No sword? The sword wouldn't do shit for Kisame against Gated Gai, and Kisame had the field advantage and forced Gai to concentrate on keeping the information from getting loose. Kisame had every single advantage and he still lost.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> It's ok, just pledge your allegiance to Our King, Lord Itachi and all shall be forgiven



My allegiance shall always be with Our Lord and Savior, Itachi-kun-sama-senpai-chan-sama-kun.


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## zimmawannatuba (Sep 3, 2013)

ShinobisWill said:


> Absolute bullshit. The manga is right there and established. You see what you want to see because you don't like the alternative. If the feats weren't there, I wouldn't bring them up.
> 
> Take your ridiculous, biased goggles off and start debating with actual merit.
> 
> ...



Sorry, but your very bad interpretation isn't established.

1. BS.  Where are you getting that at?
2. Untrue.  He would always be better off with his weapon.

Guy is the worst possible matchup for Kisame.
Kisame relies on Chakra absorption, and using his opponents chakra against them.


----------



## ShinobisWill (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> Sorry, but your very bad interpretation isn't established.
> 
> 1. BS.  Where are you getting that at?
> 2. Untrue.  He would always be better off with his weapon.
> ...



Sorry, but your very bad interpretation isn't even within the realm of subjective.

1: BS? I'd like to see some proof of otherwise. Show me where it clearly says that having 30% chakra (not even stamina) reduces speed.

2: False. He can't even use his weapon against Gated Gai. He can likely never land a hit, and what's it going to do against Gai's long-distance attacks? It is useless in the matchup once Gai goes Gates.

Kisame had every advantage going in his favor against Gai. And he still lost. Calling it a bad match-up is the same as calling Lee a bad matchup with Sasuke back in the genin days. it may be a bad match up, but that also means Lee was much stronger.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

ShinobisWill said:


> Sorry, but your very bad interpretation isn't even within the realm of subjective.
> 
> 1: BS? I'd like to see some proof of otherwise. Show me where it clearly says that having 30% chakra (not even stamina) reduces speed.
> 
> ...



Don't ya know? He uses "facts". You use "fanfiction".


----------



## zimmawannatuba (Sep 3, 2013)

ShinobisWill said:


> Sorry, but your very bad interpretation isn't even within the realm of subjective.
> 
> 1: BS? I'd like to see some proof of otherwise. Show me where it clearly says that having 30% chakra (not even stamina) reduces speed.
> 
> ...



1.  Do you not even watch the series?
2.  Assumptions and BS.


Ohh please, the fact there was some water there meant diddly shit.  He can create a huge lake wherever the fuck he wants.


----------



## Kisame (Sep 3, 2013)

ShinobisWill said:


> 2: False. He can't even use his weapon against Gated Gai.


Samehada can help him regenerate, and if he is fused with it, it would increase his durability.



> and Kisame had the field advantage


Kisame *always* has the field advantage.

Because he can create it. 


> and forced Gai to concentrate on keeping the information from getting loose.


I'm not sure how this means anything.


> Kisame had every single advantage and he still lost.


?

Kisame did not have his sword, which would have provided him with regeneration and durability.


> Calling it a bad match-up is the same as calling Lee a bad matchup with Sasuke back in the genin days. it may be a bad match up, but that also means Lee was much stronger.


But Gai's style is perfect for Kisame, his strongest attack *directy* negates Kisame.

Jiraiya vs Orochimaru is a matter of strength, because both have techniques that trump the other's, however with Kisame his fighting style is effectively countered by Gai's, especially when you consider that Kisame is generally more versatile and stronger than him (he can beat more people than Gai, but not necessarily Gai himself).


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

Shark said:


> Samehada can help him regenerate, and if he is fused with it, it would increase his durability.
> 
> 
> Kisame *always* has the field advantage.
> ...



Yup, I agree.  Well said.
Just because Guy can beat Kisame, doesn't mean Kakashi could.

Kakashi loses without Kamui.


----------



## RedChidori (Sep 3, 2013)

Maybe Kakashi can send some Raiton throughout Kisame's water dome if it comes down to it. It would definitely shock Samehada fused Kisame and seriously injure him if not kill him.


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

A little electricity flowing throughout a huge lake would do nothing.
If anything got near him, then he could just absorb it with his sword.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Sep 3, 2013)

RedChidori said:


> Maybe Kakashi can send some Raiton throughout Kisame's water dome if it comes down to it. It would definitely shock Samehada fused Kisame and seriously injure him if not kill him.



 He can just absorb that chakra, so it'd be a waste to do that.

 Even Raiton clones will be useless considering he's just going to charge at his opponent with Samehada like he always does.

 Edit: Also, Kisame lost to Gated Gai due to being severely weakened and not being fused with Samehada.


----------



## Axiom (Sep 3, 2013)

Severely weakened?  He had just sucked the Hachibi dry :|

Granted, he didn't have Samehada, but that wouldn't have mattered.  Gai won because Hirudora hard counters Daikodan and there's not much more to it.  If Kisame tried to actually fight 7th Gate Gai in CQC, he'd have lost just as badly as his Shoten clone did against 6th Gate Gai.


----------



## Kisame (Sep 3, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Severely weakened?  He had just sucked the Hachibi dry :|


It makes more sense that he absorbed Bee's base Chakra (which is probably lower than Kisame's).

Unless you believe Samehada absorbed so much of the Hachibi's chakra in a few seconds that Bee collapsed (but we know this isn't true because we already seen the battle between Kisame and Bee).



> Granted, he didn't have Samehada, but that wouldn't have mattered.  Gai won because Hirudora hard counters Daikodan and there's not much more to it.  If Kisame tried to actually fight 7th Gate Gai in CQC, he'd have lost just as badly as his Shoten clone did against 6th Gate Gai.


Samehada provides Kisame with durability and regeneration.


----------



## Axiom (Sep 3, 2013)

And yeah, he probably only got Base Bee and Aoba's chakra.  Still not really considerably weakened, other than the loss of Samehada which I maintain wasn't overly important to the events that followed.

It also provides him with webbed hands which may not even be capable of casting jutsu.

Even if he could, it really wouldn't matter.  He'd still take the brunt of Hirudora and afterwards, he'd have 7th Gate Gai bearing down on him.  Durable as he may be, he won't survive for very long if 7th Gate Gai is having his way with him.


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Severely weakened?  He had just sucked the Hachibi dry :|
> 
> Granted, he didn't have Samehada, but that wouldn't have mattered.  Gai won because Hirudora hard counters Daikodan and there's not much more to it.  If Kisame tried to actually fight 7th Gate Gai in CQC, he'd have lost just as badly as his Shoten clone did against 6th Gate Gai.



Kisame's sword is OP as hell. 
I like how you guys are acting like it is irrelevant in the off chance to downplay Kisame, so Kakashi can supposedly win this.  lol

Samehada
Basic Offense
Basic Defense
Chakra Absorption
Chakra Transfer
Regeneration
Chakra sensory
Fusion


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 3, 2013)

Kisame's biggest knock is his lack of speed, which going against a sharingan user puts him really at a disadvantage. He is without a shadow of a doubt, stronger, more durable and less likely to be overpowered in this fight. However, Kakashi is far more intelligent and can rely on his fighting style to deceive and/or undermine Kisame's strength.

Kakashi easily kept up with Itachi, when he was rated to be just as fast as Kisame during Part 1. I don't see Kisame landing blows effectively unless Kakashi wants to place a trap bunshin of some sort (e.g. with a Raikiri or RKB). Regardless of his prowess, he'll get paralyzed and Kakashi can finish him off w/Raikiri or use it as an opening for another attack.

Kakashi can also fool him with genjutsu and/or take advantage of the fact that Kisame is really weak in this area. Prior to his fight with Tobi he had no considerable feats in genjutsu, but being able to go toe to toe with him puts his skills easily a few levels above Kisame.

Kakashi can also avoid the brunt of Kisame's jutsu via shadow clones, mimicking the jutsu back at him  and/or a defensive Kamui. His chakra levels have grown since Part 1 and he was able to hold is own for quite some time before needing a recharge in the war. 

Kisame's advantage is water and I'd be  inclined to give him the advantage if not for the fact that he couldn't  use the water dome. Kakashi takes this 7/10, with moderate to high difficulty in the given conditions.


----------



## Axiom (Sep 3, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Kisame's sword is OP as hell.
> I like how you guys are acting like it is irrelevant in the off chance to downplay Kisame, so Kakashi can supposedly win this.  lol
> 
> Samehada
> ...



And the only one of these powers that may have any effect at all on Kisame Vs Hirudora is Fusion.  But even fusion can't save him from 7th Gate Gai going to town on him, if it even saves him from Hirudora.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Sep 3, 2013)

^ Possibly, but he was stated to be weakened after the fight with Bee regardless.

 Since he was severely weakened and not fused with Samehada, he could've possibly broke through Hirudora, but we'll never know for sure.


----------



## RedChidori (Sep 3, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Possibly, but he was stated to be weakened after the fight with Bee regardless.
> 
> Since he was severely weakened and not fused with Samehada, he could've possibly broke through Hirudora, but we'll never know for sure.



WE WANT EDO KISAME! Just to see if he can break through Hirudora and beat Gai-Sensei.


----------



## Zona (Sep 4, 2013)

Shark said:


> Yes: Kakashi is weaker than Asuma.
> 
> .



Did you really just say that or do you mean the converse?


----------



## Joker J (Sep 4, 2013)

RedChidori said:


> WE WANT EDO KISAME! Just to see if he can break through Hirudora and beat Gai-Sensei.



Edo Kisame would be too OP, that's why Kishi didn't bring him back, it's was very possible to bring Kisame back considering he brought a person back who exploded himself into non existent pieces.


----------



## Kisame (Sep 4, 2013)

Axiom said:


> And yeah, he probably only got Base Bee and Aoba's chakra.  Still not really considerably weakened


Compared to the notion that he "sucked the _Hachibi_ dry", or compared to Kisame's already humongous Chakra levels in base - it kinda is.



Ryuzaki said:


> Kisame's biggest knock is his lack of speed, which going against a sharingan user puts him really at a disadvantage.


Kisame has dealt with speedsters before, it wasn't a problem.

We have also seen Hiruzen matching the much faster Orochimaru in CQC.


> I don't see Kisame landing blows effectively


"Kisame landing blows" is the same as "Kisame landing blows effectively", because Kisame can afford to block (unlike Kakashi), and can probably knock him out with one hit.


> unless Kakashi wants to place a trap bunshin of some sort (e.g. with a Raikiri or RKB). Regardless of his prowess, he'll get paralyzed and Kakashi can finish him off w/Raikiri or use it as an opening for another attack.


Samehada can absorb the Raiton.

Also we have seen Kisame switch the flow of battle to Ninjutsu without being stopped from the likes of Gai, Bee, and Asuma, if/when that happens, Kakashi would have to fight lond distance. An evidently losing battle for him.


> Prior to his fight with Tobi he had no considerable feats in genjutsu, but being able to go toe to toe with him puts his skills easily a few levels above Kisame.


You're saying Kakashi being in the same league as Kisame dictates that his Genjutsu is more effective.

How do you figure?


> Kakashi can also avoid the brunt of Kisame's jutsu via shadow clones, mimicking the jutsu back at him  and/or a defensive Kamui.


Nothing but waste of Chakra, remember he is fighting Kisame.

If Kakashi is somehow pressured into going underwater, what is he going to do about the attacking sharks?


> His chakra levels have grown since Part 1 and he was able to hold is own for quite some time before needing a recharge in the war.


Doesn't matter, waste of Chakra.


> Kisame's advantage is water and I'd be  inclined to give him the advantage if not for the fact that he couldn't  use the water dome.


On what basis do you state that it is a fact that Kisame cannot use the waterdome in this match?

If you are basing this on him needing to absorb Chakra like he did against Bee:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Look at the right lower panel, and here, for reference to the depth of Kisame's Bakusui Shouha. Now this is Kisame with only access to 30% Chakra, and remember that he used many other Jutsu in the same battle.

Now compare it to the waterdome.

Do you honestly believe that Kisame with 100% of his resources is _still_ insufficient to perform the Jutsu?

You really think the difference in Chakra requirement between Dai Bakuisui Shouha and Bakusui Shouha is *more than three to one* (of course I'd have to assume Bakusui Shouha took 29/30 of the Kisame clone's Chakra and the other Jutsu he did were the 1% to make that argument, which is idiotically generous, but oh well...)

Even a sick Itachi can use 3 MS at the very least + other Jutsu.

Do people *really* think the waterdome costs more Chakra than Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, and Susano'o _put together_?

Never mind the fact that the waterdome is a _supporting_ technique, it's merely a container, and not even offensive...

All of that seems to suggest that Kisame does not need all that Chakra from Bee.




*Edit:* Sorry I missed that it was restricted in the OP.


Zona said:


> Did you really just say that or do you mean the converse?


I meant physically, not overall.

Writing that down I figured a misconception is bound to happen.


----------



## Kai (Sep 4, 2013)

Shark, it's only because I restricted Waterdome in the OP and offensive Kamui for Kakashi. Kisame should be able to bring it out otherwise, but I felt the technique would just about doom Kakashi no matter what happens.


----------



## Kisame (Sep 4, 2013)

Yeah, sorry I missed that.

I agree with you, Kisame dishing it out is decisive and unstoppable.


----------



## Axiom (Sep 4, 2013)

Shark said:


> Compared to the notion that he "sucked the _Hachibi_ dry", or compared to Kisame's already humongous Chakra levels in base - it kinda is.
> 
> You're saying Kakashi being in the same league as Kisame dictates that his Genjutsu is more effective.
> 
> How do you figure that?



I'll let other people fight their own battles, BUT it's not like he was out of chakra to begin with so I don't see how he was at all weakened.  Unless he _was_ out of chakra to begin with, in which case, Base Bee and Aoba evidently have a shit ton of chakra (see: Senjikizame and Daikodan) and he really was A-Okay.

Regardless, the fight came down to Daikodan Vs Hirudora, and having more chakra certainly wouldn't have helped after his arms were blown off.  Kisamehada would have only managed to survive a little longer.

And idk what you're talking about with that second part.  He said Kakashi managing to break Obito's genjutsu proved he was better than Kisame at genjutsu, which is pretty reasonable.


----------



## Kisame (Sep 5, 2013)

Axiom said:


> I'll let other people fight their own battles, BUT it's not like he was out of chakra to begin with


Look at his state here.


> so I don't see how he was at all weakened.





> Unless he _was_ out of chakra to begin with, in which case, Base Bee and Aoba evidently have a shit ton of chakra (see: Senjikizame and Daikodan) and he really was A-Okay.


Evidence base Bee and Aoba have as much Chakra or more than Kisame?

Considering it took Kisame a couple seconds to suck them dry?


> Regardless, the fight came down to Daikodan Vs Hirudora, and having more chakra certainly wouldn't have helped after his arms were blown off.  Kisamehada would have only managed to survive a little longer.


Kisame would be more durable and would have handled Hirudora better. He would also be faster than Gai underwater, and most importantly he could regenerate.

Would that be enough to beat Gai? Maybe, but that's not really the point in the first place.


> And idk what you're talking about with that second part.  He said Kakashi managing to break Obito's genjutsu proved he was better than Kisame at genjutsu, which is pretty reasonable.


But everyone knows Kakashi is better at Genjutsu than Kisame though.

I guess it is my fault for assuming he was insinuating something that wasn't already known to everyone who reads the Manga.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 5, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> No you can't.  He has had it far longer than not, and it has been a staple in his fighting style.  The fact he lost it at the end proves nothing.
> 
> I mean shit, he only lost it a couple minutes before his death.



Mechanics of the battledome.

Bee took over it in his fight with Kisame he just used a last ditch technique to transform into Samahada who clearly likes Bee more thats why Kisame couldn't control it after that incident.

Well Bee's didn't have samahada for longer than he's had samahada. Or atleast it is according to your statement.

And it was a while before his death that he lost Samahada to his enemy. Just because he clinged to it to survive doesn't mean that he weilded it, it wielded him.




			
				Shark said:
			
		

> Kisame would be more durable and would have handled Hirudora better. He would also be faster than Gai underwater, and most importantly he could regenerate.
> 
> 
> Would that be enough to beat Gai? Maybe, but that's not really the point in the first place.


 I don't even know how you misinterpret the manga this badly. Gai was so fucking badass he was pushing the water away from him, so technically Gai would never be underwater. Kisame was so fucking hurt that he could barely move(get to Samahada in a minute) then Gai immediately blitzs Kisame before he can move and orders him and beats his ass down again for...twitching. If Gai seen Kisame as any more of a threat he would rip him in half or obliterate him with a point blank range Afternoon Tiger.

Samahada could heal Kisame from the damage but it needs chakra. Gai isn't powered by chakra its by youth. I actually believe its a form of natural energy different from chakra and akin but a different kind of senjutsu.


----------



## Axiom (Sep 5, 2013)

Shark said:


> Look at his state here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The evidence is that he was able to use his 1,000 Sharks Suiton _and_ Daikodan in succession.  Both of those are obviously pretty chakra intensive jutsu.  So clearly they had a shitton of chakra, to the point where having any more really wasn't going to do Kisame any favors given that he didn't lose because he was out of chakra.

Or, of course, maybe he did just suck the Hachibi dry

No that wouldn't be enough to beat Gai who pushes back the water by existing and casually destroys boulders in a weaker state.  Kisame would have been injured by Hirudora and it wouldn't have been long after before Kisame died.

The first thing we saw after Hirudora exploded was Gai right on top of Kisame.  Had Kisame had any arms, Gai would have kicked him around a little more.  Or maybe just cut off his arms.  Whatever works, really.


----------



## Kisame (Sep 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I don't even know how you misinterpret the manga this badly.


I'm not misinterpreting anything, everything I stated was a fact:

Kisame would be more durable. Check

Kisame would be able to regenerate. Check.


> Gai was so fucking badass he was pushing the water away from him, so technically Gai would never be underwater.


Gai needed Bee's help to catch up with Kisame.

Kisame is faster. Check


> Kisame was so fucking hurt that he could barely move(get to Samahada in a minute) then Gai immediately blitzs Kisame before he can move and orders him and beats his ass down again for...twitching. If Gai seen Kisame as any more of a threat he would rip him in half or obliterate him with a point blank range Afternoon Tiger.
> 
> Samahada could heal Kisame from the damage but it needs chakra. Gai isn't powered by chakra its by youth. I actually believe its a form of natural energy different from chakra and akin but a different kind of senjutsu.


Samehada has its own chakra and it shares some with Kisame.

Also I was not arguing Kisame was stronger than Gai. Go back and re-read.


Axiom said:


> The evidence is that he was able to use his 1,000 Sharks Suiton _and_ Daikodan in succession.  Both of those are obviously pretty chakra intensive jutsu.  So clearly they had a shitton of chakra


You're missing the point.

The argument is whether base Kisame has more Chakra than base Bee and Aoba or not. Not whether these two have lots of Chakra.


> given that he didn't lose because he was out of chakra.


Irrelevant.


> Or, of course, maybe he did just suck the Hachibi dry


The problem with that is we have already _seen_ Samehada against the Hachibi, and this didn't happen...


> No that wouldn't be enough to beat Gai who pushes back the water by existing


It doesn't matter what he pushes, he is slower than Kisame (he needed Bee's aid to catch up to him).


> Kisame would have been injured by Hirudora and it wouldn't have been long after before Kisame died.


If Kisame had Samehada he might have been able to heal completely.


----------



## Axiom (Sep 5, 2013)

Lol @ irrelevant.  That's the entire point.  If he had enough chakra to do everything he needed to in the fight, and he lost anyway, then there's flat out no excuse in that area.  Kisame's base chakra pool, Aoba and Bee's base chakra pool, _it makes no difference._  The amount of chakra he had was irrelevant to the fight.

And he needed Bee to throw him because Kisame, uhm, flew away in a water shark or something.  Being thrown and jumping off of Ningame was a lot more efficient than running through the entire turtle forest thing.

Anyway, if Kisame was faster than Gai, then there would have been no need to actually use Daikodan.  He could have just escaped the turtle faster than Gai could chase.


----------



## Kisame (Sep 9, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Lol @ irrelevant.  That's the entire point.  If he had enough chakra to do everything he needed to in the fight, and he lost anyway, then there's flat out no excuse in that area.
> 
> Kisame's base chakra pool, Aoba and Bee's base chakra pool, _it makes no difference._  The amount of chakra he had was irrelevant to the fight.


The amount of Chakra you have is *always* relevant to the fight. Even if your status does not change from "loser" to "winner", it will undoubtedly increase the difficulty for your opponent (which is, guess what, an "advantage").

And Good to know you admit he was below his lower Chakra pool and was *indeed* disadvantaged as you have argued against.




> And he needed Bee to throw him because Kisame, uhm, flew away in a water shark or something.


*tossing them into the clouds.*

Seems like he's swimming.

But then again I don't know whether Kisame was flying or swimming has anything to do with the speed comparison. 


> Being thrown and jumping off of Ningame was a lot more efficient than running through the entire turtle forest thing.





> Anyway, if Kisame was faster than Gai, then there would have been no need to actually use Daikodan.  He could have just escaped the turtle faster than Gai could chase.


Gai had already caught up to him (thanks to Bee and the Ningame's help) and Kisame was within range (we see this because his moves really did reach him [Hirudora]).

Also, if we're talking about a situation underwater (waterdome) where Kisame is fused, it is even more certain who is faster.

So let's recap: Kisame would be more durable, he would also be faster than Gai, and most importantly he could regenerate.

Would that be enough to beat Gai? Not necessarily, but that's not really the point in the first place.

Also:


			
				IchLiebe said:
			
		

> thats why Kisame couldn't control it after that incident.


Kisame controlled Samehada (he had it suck up Bee's Chakra).


> Just because he clinged to it to survive doesn't mean that he weilded it, it wielded him.


Samehada never wielded Kisame, we saw him *force* it to absorb Chakra and give to him from Bee (it's new favorite). And then he just let go grinning.

Kisame also acknowledged long ago Samehada preferred Bee's Chakra as he was grinning and not giving a single fuck. Fuck even Bee says Samehada was "forced". Samehada was his bitch.

This is a bit off topic but man Kisame is awesome.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 9, 2013)

Shark said:


> Gai needed Bee's help to catch up with Kisame.
> 
> Kisame is faster. Check



Kisame began his exit before Gai even entered the Gates. I can beat Usain Bolt in a foot race provided I have a large enough head start.

Furthermore, that was Kisame in water against 6th Gate Gai. Gai speeds up in the 7th Gate, and he also repels water. Therefore, the moment Kisame draws close, the water will be repelled, and Kisame will slow.


----------



## Axiom (Sep 9, 2013)

Shark said:


> The amount of Chakra you have is *always* relevant to the fight. Even if your status does not change from "loser" to "winner", it will undoubtedly increase the difficulty for your opponent (which is, guess what, an "advantage").
> 
> And Good to know you admit he was below his lower Chakra pool and was *indeed* disadvantaged as you have argued against.
> 
> ...



Uh... no.  That's not the case at all.  You can give Tenten the combined chakra of Naruto and Hashirama, but she can still do nothing but summon weapons, and she still gets speed blitzed by dozens of members of the cast.  Likewise, you can give Kisame enough chakra to use Daikodan ten times on end, but if he gets his arms blown off after the first usage, it _makes no difference._  Regardless of how much chakra Kisame had, the result of Daikodan Vs Hirudora was going to be the same.  And he didn't really have anything else that might prove effective, given Water Dome gets passively blown back and everything is useless.  So, no, having more chakra changes absolutely nothing about the fight.

Dunno why I thought Kisame flew, but regardless, the point I meant to convey was that he got a pretty large head start which is why Gai couldn't just beat him in a foot race.  Gai would have caught up eventually, but they were pressed for time.  And obviously throwing + jumping was more efficient, otherwise, they, you know, wouldn't have done it :|  Also, if Kisame was indeed faster, than he still could have escaped.  6th Gate Gai is pretty damn fast, and he seems to have to stay in one place to launch Hirudora, so if Kisame was indeed faster, he could have just gotten the hell outta dodge before Gai could have done anything effective.  All that happened was Kisame got a head start, Gai soon caught up, and then Kisame realized there was no way he could escape so he tried to stay and fight.  Alternatively, Kisame could have cast 1,000 Sharks Jutsu and then swam away, which, if he was actually faster, would have certainly bought him enough time to escape.  But he wasn't faster, so he stayed with the 1,000 Sharks Jutsu in hopes of further delaying Gai so the shark could escape.

Kisame still wouldn't be faster, and his regeneration + durability would have had a negligible effect.  Hirudora blew off his arms and Gai was all over him afterwards.  More chakra does nothing.  Samehada means Gai might have to do a little bit of clean-up after using Hirudora.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Sep 9, 2013)

Kisame only sucked up enough Chakra to fulfil his goal and leave. Kisame surely didn't suck up enough chakra from Base Bee and Aoba. He was literally down on the ground and couldn't even move.

 Anyways, whether or not Daikodan would've beaten Hirudora if it was FP Kisame-hada I'm not sure and I do think it's a possibility that Gai would've eventually won, but one thing I'd like to know is if Hirudora totally crushed a Weakened Daikodan, why did it take a couple of panels to reach Kisame and completely rip through Daikodan?


----------



## SSMG (Sep 9, 2013)

"Kisame is faster than guy"

Yet kisame credits.guy for his impreesive speed... kisame states guy moves at supersonic speeds(nothing of this sort was said about kisame) and guy causes the air to catch on fire with. pure speed. something kisame cannot do


whoever says kisame is faster than guy isn't paying attention.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Sep 9, 2013)

^ He was going by pure swimming speed which in that case, is mostly true. You have to remember, Kisame most likely didn't think Gai was going to find him by jumping midair or that he can repel water. In water, Kisame is the speed demon.


----------



## Kisame (Sep 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kisame began his exit before Gai even entered the Gates. I can beat Usain Bolt in a foot race provided I have a large enough head start.


There was no end line.


> Furthermore, that was Kisame in water against 6th Gate Gai. Gai speeds up in the 7th Gate, and he also repels water. Therefore, the moment Kisame draws close, the water will be repelled, and Kisame will slow.


I'm not really understanding your point here.


Axiom said:


> Likewise, you can give Kisame enough chakra to use Daikodan ten times on end, but if he gets his arms blown off after the first usage, it _makes no difference._  Regardless of how much chakra Kisame had, the result of Daikodan Vs Hirudora was going to be the same.  And he didn't really have anything else that might prove effective, given Water Dome gets passively blown back and everything is useless.  So, no, having more chakra changes absolutely nothing about the fight.


Kisame can regenerate with that Chakra. Like I have said a hundred times. Even physically he'd be in better shape.


> And obviously throwing + jumping was more efficient, otherwise, they, you know, wouldn't have done it :|


I never denied it was efficient, I'm more concerned with the relevant issue of it being outside help that indicates speed difference.


> Also, if Kisame was indeed faster, than he still could have escaped.


Gai already caught up with him, I told you this.


> 6th Gate Gai is pretty damn fast, and he seems to have to stay in one place to launch Hirudora, so if Kisame was indeed faster, he could have just gotten the hell outta dodge before Gai could have done anything effective.


Kisame can't dodge Hirudora.


> But he wasn't faster, *so* he stayed with the 1,000 Sharks Jutsu in hopes of further delaying Gai so the shark could escape.


Kisame being faster had nothing to do with the shark itself.


> Kisame still wouldn't be faster


Kisame is *made* to be a fast swimmer.


> and his regeneration + durability would have had a negligible effect.


Because completely healing from Hirudora like he did to Bee's V2 Lariat is negligible.  





> Hirudora blew off his arms and Gai was all over him afterwards.


Lariat blew his chest off, it actually literally opened up Kisame, and he was less durable than what he would have been had he been fused.


> Samehada means Gai might have to do a little bit of clean-up after using Hirudora.


Like use another Hirudora to beat the already fully healed Kisame. 

Also, this is getting a bit redundant and repetitive.


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## Rocky (Sep 10, 2013)

Shark said:


> There was no end line.



The boundaries of turtle island were the end line.



> I'm not really understanding your point here.



Kisame isn't faster than Gai on land.


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## Kisame (Sep 10, 2013)

> The boundaries of turtle island were the end line.


How so?


> Kisame isn't faster than Gai on land.


I agree.


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## Axiom (Sep 10, 2013)

Right it is getting repetitive so whatever.  But there's no evidence that Kisame can regenerate with more chakra if he doesn't have Samehada, so no, it makes no difference.  The argument wasn't if the difficulty raises if Kisame has more chakra + samehada, it was simply if he had his base chakra pool.

And anyway, your quote on the topic was "The amount of Chakra you have is *always* relevant to the fight. Even if your status does not change from "loser" to "winner", it will undoubtedly increase the difficulty for your opponent (which is, guess what, an "advantage")."  That's just downright untrue, as I said.


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## Joker J (Sep 11, 2013)

Gai's  gate water repelling is only *temporary*. Guy here in 6th gate is swimming, righter after firing hirudora he's surrounded by water again. 

Gai activating gates around water making it repel is only temporary, it's not forever.


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## KawaiiKyuubi (Sep 11, 2013)

Without offensive Kamui, I don't see Kakashi beating Kisame. I could probably absorb his Raiton attacks, and if he can't, then his stamina is pretty godly anyway. I'm assuming Kisame doesn't have Samehada or else this is a roflstomp.


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## SSMG (Sep 11, 2013)

Joker J said:


> Gai's  gate water repelling is only *temporary*. Guy here in 6th gate is swimming, righter after firing hirudora he's surrounded by water again.
> 
> Gai activating gates around water making it repel is only temporary, it's not forever.



Sixth gate only pushed back a lake... it never pushed.back the ocean that was once he was seventh gate... and in your second link shows he is clearly in a aura bubble under the water..aka pushing it back.


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## Kisame (Sep 11, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Right it is getting repetitive so whatever.  But there's no evidence that Kisame can regenerate with more chakra if he doesn't have Samehada, so no, it makes no difference.  The argument wasn't if the difficulty raises if Kisame has more chakra + samehada, it was simply if he had his base chakra pool.
> 
> And anyway, your quote on the topic was "The amount of Chakra you have is *always* relevant to the fight. Even if your status does not change from "loser" to "winner", it will undoubtedly increase the difficulty for your opponent (which is, guess what, an "advantage")."  That's just downright untrue, as I said.


Kisame regenerates using Chakra, the more he has the more he can regenerate.

Anyway, this is pretty much as far as we can go, so I guess we'll agree to disagree.

It's been nice.


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## Joker J (Sep 12, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Sixth gate only pushed back a lake... it never pushed.back the ocean that was once he was seventh gate... and in your second link shows he is clearly in a aura bubble under the water..aka pushing it back.




Gai activating gates only repels it for a short amount of time and Kishi is not consistent in showing how  water reacts to Gai activating his gates.

1st time showing him activate 6th gate around water. [1]

2nd time. [2] 

Gai isn't in his air bubble any after he fires Hirudora. As i shown in other scans neither 6th gate or the 7th gate constantly repels water, 6th gate has to swim to navigate in the water and i'll show more proof scans of 7th gate gai. [3] - [4]


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