# Current Base Naruto vs Kakuzu {655 spoilers}



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 13, 2013)

Considering now that Naruto can create a Odama Rasenshuriken, climb to the top of the entire Shinju in seconds, and make his Odama Rasenshuriken visible for miles...

Battlefield: Naruto vs Kakuzu
Starting distance: 50 meters
Restrictions: Sage Mode, Biju Mode, Kurama Chakra Mode
Knowledge: Same as in the manga

Kakuzu starts with all five hearts. Who wins?


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## asstonine (Nov 13, 2013)

Old base naruto, who is nothing by comparison to current naruto, beat Kakuzu...

The number of hearts honestly isn't even a factor, because the FRS destroys the chakra network.
After being hit by an incomplete FRS Kakauzu's body was so trashed that he couldn't do anything.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm not even sure if Odama Rasenshuriken is going to even enter this battle.


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## asstonine (Nov 13, 2013)

Current base Naruto is easily Kage level.


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## asstonine (Nov 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm not even sure if Odama Rasenshuriken is going to even enter this battle.



Idk, Kakuzu is at the Kage level himself, and he is damn hard to kill.
FRS is almost certainly coming into play, and when it does it's over.


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## Trojan (Nov 13, 2013)

Naruto wins IMO.


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## ueharakk (Nov 13, 2013)

i'm going to play the skeptic and say "we don't know if naruto is in sennin mode right now".

Because using a rasenshuriken in base let alone oodama rasenshuriken is suppose to chronically damage him.


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## asstonine (Nov 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> i'm going to play the skeptic and say "we don't know if naruto is in sennin mode right now".
> 
> Because using a rasenshuriken in base let alone oodama rasenshuriken is suppose to chronically damage him.


It's not like sage mode makes him invulnerable to the damage.

It damaged him, because he couldn't throw it at the time.  In other words, he punched him in the face with it, and  was caught in the explosion!  

There is no reason whatsoever that Naruto couldn't use a normal FRS.
Of course this doesn't even matter in this case, because the version he punched with works just as well here.


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## Kai (Nov 13, 2013)

Could be a new feat, but Naruto may have entered Sage Mode in between pages - we just don't know. Especially if he plans to throw it, which should be impossible for Naruto in base.

I think Rasenshuriken was meant to defeat Kakuzu completely for Base Naruto, although Naruto's base ability with Rasengan has grown tremendously since the Immortals Arc.


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## asstonine (Nov 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> Could be a new feat, but Naruto may have entered Sage Mode in between pages - we just don't know. Especially if he plans to throw it, which should be impossible for Naruto in base.
> 
> I think Rasenshuriken was meant to defeat Kakuzu completely for Base Naruto, although Naruto's base ability with Rasengan has grown tremendously since the Immortals Arc.



You assume he can't throw it!  It is a completely baseless assumption!  It doesn't even make sense...  Eventually, maybe not now, but at some point he should acquire the ability to throw it in base.  He likely already has the ability to do so!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2013)

asstonine said:


> Idk, Kakuzu is at the Kage level himself, and he is damn hard to kill.
> FRS is almost certainly coming into play, and when it does it's over.



I doubted CFRS, not FRS.



ueharakk said:


> i'm going to play the skeptic and say "we don't know if naruto is in sennin mode right now".
> 
> Because using a rasenshuriken in base let alone oodama rasenshuriken is suppose to chronically damage him.



That's worth nothing. You can argue that Kurama negates that, but Tsunade said FRS would damage Naruto _in spite_ of knowing about Kurama.



asstonine said:


> You assume he can't throw it!  It is a completely baseless assumption!  It doesn't even make sense...  Eventually, maybe not now, but at some point he should acquire the ability to throw it in base.  He likely already has the ability to do so!



Naruto is incapable of throwing FRS in base. Hence he believed SM was his ticket to perfecting the jutsu.


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## asstonine (Nov 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto is incapable of throwing FRS in base. Hence he believed SM was his ticket to perfecting the jutsu.



As I said, that is merely an assumption, and a bad one at that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2013)

asstonine said:


> As I said, that is merely an assumption, and a bad one at that.



Why is that?


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 13, 2013)

You can't really believe that he made that FRS in Base....when its been established that using it in Base heavily injures him....not to mention he can't even throw it in base..


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## Triggenism (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm still getting the feeling Kakuzu takes this. Although it's true Naruto is far stronger now in base mode. He still risks getting caught by Kakuzu's black "tentacles". And if that happens he has more or less no means of getting out of that predicament. He could go TKB but that might exhaust his chakra supply too much to do be able to do hand-held FRS later on. Also, in this scenario. He can't afford to miss or fuck-up the chakra control of FRS or there will be no one there to save him when Kakuzu blitzes with his black tentacles. With 50 meters distance and no clones out I can see Naruto being in a troublesome situation right away. Especially considering Kakuzu has all hearts out, ready to strike and shoot big AoE jutsu at Naruto.

I don't know really, it's hard to say. I feel like Kakuzu is still too much for base Naruto. Although the fight will be very even and possibly drawn out. I see Naruto being too tired to do FRS or spam more kage bunshins at the end of the fight, and Kakuzu outlasts him and gets a kill shot.

Kakuzu wins with high difficulty.


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## kaminogan (Nov 13, 2013)

FRS hurts the user because the wind blades cut thru the user,

as for the battle, naruto wins,

i mean come on, not only can he summon the gama's and moves such as odama rasen tairengan,

wich are good counters towards the black hearts,

this isnt even going into FRS wish is basically an instant KO,


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 13, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> You can't really believe that he made that FRS in Base....when its been established that using it in Base heavily injures him....not to mention he can't even throw it in base..


Why can't he throw it in base? And I don't see the Sage Mode traits that Naruto displays in that picture, he really did made it in base until otherwise. 

And why would it still injure him? That was a 50% Rasenshuriken, not even complete. Naruto has completed the technique.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 13, 2013)

Kakuzu casually wipes him off the map with the Atsugai+Zukokku combo. Naruto never gets close enough to hit him with OFRS- and even if he did, the extent to which it would damage Kakuzu's Domu-enhanced body is...uncertain.


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## kaminogan (Nov 13, 2013)

im not familiar with that attack, how large is it ?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Kakuzu casually wipes him off the map with the Atsugai+Zukokku combo. Naruto never gets close enough to hit him with OFRS- and even if he did, the extent to which it would damage Kakuzu's Domu-enhanced body is...uncertain.


Kakuzu will get fooled by a Bushin Feint like before. And Naruto can most likely toss Odama FRS in base. Only this time Naruto's FRS won't fizzle out. And Doton: Domu won't do SHIT against the Rasenshuriken, it'd be vaporized and destroyed.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 14, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> im not familiar with that attack, how large is it ?



this

This is Zukokku by itself:

this

this



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kakuzu will get fooled by a Bushin Feint like before.



You don't know that. 

The circumstances are different, this time; Kakuzu is starting fresh and Naruto no longer has to deliver the FRS at close-range, which allows the possibility for an alternative outcome.

Still not seeing how Naruto is supposed to deal with the Katon+Fuuton combo in base form.



> And Doton: Domu won't do SHIT against the Rasenshuriken, it'd be vaporized and destroyed.



And I'm sure you have evidence to back this up.

Oh, wait.

As usual, no you don't.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You don't know that.
> 
> The circumstances are different, this time; Kakuzu is starting fresh and Naruto no longer has to deliver the FRS at close-range, which allows the possibility for an alternative outcome.
> 
> Still not seeing how Naruto is supposed to deal with the Katon+Fuuton combo in base form.


Naruto is both as fast as Kakashi and Sasuke now in base, and can counter the Katon + Futon combo with a Cho Odama Rasengan. A base Rasengan is able to counter a roof-sized Katon in part one after all and Naruto has not only improved his Rasengan but got Odama Rasengan and Cho Odama Rasengan to counter Kakuzu's elemental spam.

Add in clones, boss summons, and Naruto's normal tactical style I don't see how Kakuzu 'easily wins.


> And I'm sure you have evidence to back this up.
> 
> Oh, wait.
> 
> As usual, no you don't.


And what's your feats that Doton: Domu can even survive a 50% Rasenshuriken? Kakuzu acted like the technique would kill him regardless of what he'd do, even at full power. Now an Odama Rasenshuriken which is larger, more powerful, and is probably something Naruto can throw?


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## Alex Payne (Nov 14, 2013)

We don't know if Naruto is in SM or not. We also don't know if he is tapping into Kyubi's reserves or not(he can do that freely without KCM/BM). 

Actual Base Naruto with confirmed abilities still likely wins with Summons+TKB+Oodama Rasengan usage. High-diff though and like 7/10, Kakuzu isn't some weakling while Naruto's true strength lies in Modes.


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## Azula (Nov 14, 2013)

gamakichi's syrup gun traps him and then oodama frs ends the match


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## Ascend (Nov 14, 2013)

Without help Kakuzu owns him like he did last time


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why can't he throw it in base? And I don't see the Sage Mode traits that Naruto displays in that picture, he really did made it in base until otherwise.
> 
> And why would it still injure him? That was a 50% Rasenshuriken, not even complete. Naruto has completed the technique.



Apparently FRS is too dense to be thrown in his Base form, hence the surprise when he did it in Sage Mode.

Pretty sure that the techniques completion has nothing to do with why it hurts him in the first place, which the wind blades piercing into his skin. Which is prevented when he tosses it at the enemy instead of ramming it into them. 

You can't even see Naruto's face to know if he's in Base or Sage Mode to say that you didn't see his Sage Mode traits.  

All this time FRS has only been usable in Sage Mode, and can only be thrown in Sage Mode (KM and BM) so all evidence points toward him being in Sage Mode at the time, none supports him being in Base Mode.  So he did it in Sage Mode until shown otherwise.


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## The World (Nov 14, 2013)

asstonine said:


> Old base naruto, who is nothing by comparison to current naruto, beat Kakuzu...
> 
> The number of hearts honestly isn't even a factor, because the FRS destroys the chakra network.
> After being hit by an incomplete FRS Kakauzu's body was so trashed that he couldn't do anything.



Doton armor would have helped back then

as well as 2 other hearts flying around as support

He beat a Kakuzu who was trying to defend from 3-4 other opponents and only 2 masks you knob


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Kakuzu casually wipes him off the map with the Atsugai+Zukokku combo. Naruto never gets close enough to hit him with OFRS- and even if he did, the extent to which it would damage Kakuzu's Domu-enhanced body is...uncertain.



Gotta go with this.

Naruto needed KN0 chakra enhancement, full knowledge and back up to deal with a worn out Kakuzu.
Fresh Kakuzu annihilates base Naruto.


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## ueharakk (Nov 14, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto needed KN0 chakra enhancement,


which did nothing but give naruto 3 FRS instead of 2.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> full knowledge


Kakuzu had just as much knowledge on naruto as naruto had on him: that naruto is a shadow clone user and that he has a jutsu that will kill him if it hits.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> and back up to deal with a worn out Kakuzu.


backup was only required because had learned FRS less than an hour ago and it stopped at the last minute, this is current Base naruto.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> to deal with a worn out Kakuzu.


*Naruto came into the fight worn out as well* which was the equivalent of Kakuzu's handicap.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fresh Kakuzu annihilates base Naruto.


lol no, 300 chapters ago *Naruto almost hit kakuzu with just 3 clones* while the original just sat back and watched.  When the original joined the fray he would have landed FRS on kakuzu if he was more skilled and could hold it longer.  Current Naruto is more skilled and can hold it longer, is faster, stronger, and has way more chakra.


Base Naruto should win now.  Doton domu isn't going to allow him to survive a hit from even a base FRS when the best thing domu tanked was chouji's rolling crush attack all the while FRS is much stronger than things like Chou oodama rasengan.  We could also go by databook hype: for a base FRS, it says that   wile domu states   Kakuzu's giant katons and fuutons are good crowd control abilities, however naruto can simply power through them with a giant or super giant rasengan so that's obviously not going to oneshot him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why can't he throw it in base? And I don't see the Sage Mode traits that Naruto displays in that picture, he really did made it in base until otherwise.
> 
> And why would it still injure him? That was a 50% Rasenshuriken, not even complete. Naruto has completed the technique.



He can make FRS in base, no problem. However a bigger FRS would increase the damage his base body takes... a smaller FRS being used for a while would make him unable to use chakra ever again. You can see why him making a bigger one in base seems likely. He might be able to, but it'd be stupid to do so.

Rasenshuriken was imperfect because Naruto couldn't throw it, also it injured him. 50% FRS became 100% FRS after Naruto learnt that Sage chakra helps him actively recover as he uses the chakra i.e. any FRS damage would be healed as it occurs. 
Also the huge chakra power up he got (in quantity and quality) allowed him to throw it.

You can use that to explain KCM using FRS too. 

Either way this was Naruto using things well above his base capacity.

So Naruto going back to using FRS in his base form is actually a step down as he'd only be using an imperfect one.



Nikushimi said:


> Kakuzu casually wipes him off the map with the Atsugai+Zukokku combo. Naruto never gets close enough to hit him with OFRS- and even if he did, the extent to which it would damage Kakuzu's Domu-enhanced body is...uncertain.



Domu's databook entry said there are a few jutsu, aside from Raiton, which can get past it. The logical inference is that the super power jutsu such as FRS and Bijuu Dama are among those few jutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto is both as fast as Kakashi and Sasuke now in base,



Based on what?



> and can counter the Katon + Futon combo with a Cho Odama Rasengan. A base Rasengan is able to counter a roof-sized Katon in part one after all and Naruto has not only improved his Rasengan but got Odama Rasengan and Cho Odama Rasengan to counter Kakuzu's elemental spam.



This isn't just a Katon- it's a Katon+Fuuton combination attack. It is already directed by a gust of wind that is more powerful than any passive influence of a Rasengan variant.



> Add in clones, boss summons, and Naruto's normal tactical style I don't see how Kakuzu 'easily wins.



With his Katon+Fuuton combo or with Gian.

Or he can get physical and trap Naruto the way he did Kakashi.



> And what's your feats that Doton: Domu can even survive a 50% Rasenshuriken?



If you actually read my post, you'd notice that I never said that.

I said the extent to which it would damage Kakuzu with Domu activated is uncertain, and it is; there are no cap feats for Domu and no feats period for OFRS- thus, nothing to make a comparison.



> Kakuzu acted like the technique would kill him regardless of what he'd do, even at full power.



He never suggested such a thing. He had already lost his Doton heart when he said FRS would kill him.



> Now an Odama Rasenshuriken which is larger, more powerful, and is probably something Naruto can throw?



No way of knowing. Uncertain.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Domu's databook entry said there are a few jutsu, aside from Raiton, which can get past it. The logical inference is that the super power jutsu such as FRS and Bijuu Dama are among those few jutsu.



There's nothing indicating that FRS specifically, or any variant thereof, is strong enough to make the cut. More importantly, I didn't say OFRS would completely fail to damage Kakuzu's Domu- I simply stated that the extent to which it would do so is uncertain.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> which did nothing but give naruto 3 FRS instead of 2.


And increase his speed, strength, durability, jutsu strength and everything ? 




> Kakuzu had just as much knowledge on naruto as naruto had on him: that naruto is a shadow clone user and that he has a jutsu that will kill him if it hits.


Knowledge isn't equal.
Some are more valuable than others. Kakuzu's abilities are more subtle than Naruto's.




> backup was only required because had learned FRS less than an hour ago and it stopped at the last minute, this is current Base naruto.


It didn't only serve to that purpose.
Kakuzu was like a cornered animal, he was literally cornered by superior numbers.

It was just a cruel death. Imagine a wounded beast being cornered by spears and can't move. And then one guy arrives just to deliver the killing blow.

It was far far far from a fair fight and you know it.




> *Naruto came into the fight worn out as well* which was the equivalent of Kakuzu's handicap.


Lol no.
Naruto doesn't run out of chakra, or complains about being tired in the entire manga, and even when he does, it doesn't effect his performance because he keeps fighting anyways. 
He is the main character and has a plot shield which negates other difficulties that other characters face.



> lol no, 300 chapters ago *Naruto almost hit kakuzu with just 3 clones* while the original just sat back and watched.  When the original joined the fray he would have landed FRS on kakuzu if he was more skilled and could hold it longer.  Current Naruto is more skilled and can hold it longer, is faster, stronger, and has way more chakra.



Naurto was only able to outmanuver Kakuzu because of Kn0 boost.
I don't think without Kn0 speed boost current Naruto can outmanuver Kakuzu in the same manner.
Especially when Kakuzu has his hearts and eventually more fire power to get rid of clones.
And Domu kinda negates FRS anyways, as long as he can cast it.



> Base Naruto should win now.  Doton domu isn't going to allow him to survive a hit from even a base FRS


Kakuzu was still in one piece when he got a direct hit without domu and lost only 2 hearts.
With domu he can tank it.



> [when the best thing domu tanked was chouji's rolling crush attack all the while FRS is much stronger than things like Chou oodama rasengan.  We could also go by databook hype: for a base FRS, it says that   wile domu states   Kakuzu's giant katons and fuutons are good crowd control abilities, however naruto can simply power through them with a giant or super giant rasengan so that's obviously not going to oneshot him.


Raikage kinda survived RM FRS, and no we aren't going by hype here. Come on 

Kakuzu casually wipes Naruto's clones with his elemental spam though. AOE abilities are Naruto's worst enemy.


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## Laozy (Nov 14, 2013)

Hah, Kakuzu got raped off-panel by InoShikaCho + a few fodders.

Call it PnJ, but the fact still remains.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Considering now that Naruto can create a Odama Rasenshuriken, climb to the top of the entire Shinju in seconds, and make his Odama Rasenshuriken visible for miles...
> 
> Battlefield: Naruto vs Kakuzu
> Starting distance: 50 meters
> ...



Naruto should win.

People are seriously downplaying Naruto's performance against Kakuzu in the actual manga, to be quite honest. I don't know where people are getting the idea that Kakuzu was worn out or something - if anything, Naruto was actually the one who was worn out - as the Akatsuki member himself admits. I don't know why people keep making stuff up in order to dehype the main characters all the time.

It's true that Naruto failed to land his first hand-held Rasenshuriken on Kakuzu, and that should be perfectly understandable as he was wielding a highly experimental jutsu, one he had just invented only minutes ago. It's not like he had been very used to this technique's disadvantages at that point. So he needed Kakashi and Yamato to free him from Kakuzu's Jiongu. Right after that, though, he attempted _another_ FRS on Kakuzu _without anyone's support._

This time, Naruto succeeded, and there was absolutely no difference between this instance and the previous one, apart from Naruto and Kakuzu using different tactics against each other (with both being prepared for the FRS's failings and offensive might respectively), but with the former shinobi successfully landing the FRS on the latter one this time. In short? Naruto tried two times, failed the first time, but succeeded the second time.

I could also argue that Kakuzu only survived the first FRS due to pure luck, because Naruto's FRS just happened to fizzle out as he was about to land it on Kakuzu. Had it not done so, the masked marauder of Akatsuki would've died in that instance alone, he was clearly helpless before the technique and was like 'shit I'm going to die' and what not. So it's hypocritical to call Naruto out for 'needing help' when Kakuzu was only lucky to survive against him.

It's also not like Naruto hasn't become a lot stronger since then. Sure, Naruto may have needed KN0 in the original fight against Kakuzu, but his base abilities have improved to the point that the can be said to rival (if not surpass) his initial KN0 form. Not to mention, the OP hasn't restricted him from using that form again, so he can still use it if he needs it. I don't think he would, though, and I'm going to explain why.

Kakuzu's Doton: Domu grants him tremendous durability, but I've seen nothing from himhat makes me believe that he could possibly survive a hit from Naruto's Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and not lose at least one heart in the process, even with Domu up. Considering that Kakuzu was, in fact, using another defensive form against Naruto's 50% FRS (his final form, so as to speak), and that the FRS still destroyed two of his hearts while also destroying his ability to use chakra completely, I very much doubt that Domu will do much good.

While using FRS directly can potentially ruin Naruto's ability to use Ninjutsu in the long run, there's no harm in him using a clone to employ the technique instead, and since he can make much bigger variants (as we've seen in the latest chapter), he should literally be able to spam the regular-sized versions now, even in his base form and through clones. If Naruto fights that way, he has absolutely nothing to fear from Kakuzu.

Also, can Doton: Domu really allow Kakuzu to stand up to Naruto's Cho Odama Rasen Tarengan? I mean, having like 1,000 clones rush at the opponent while wielding enormous Rasengans each - that should spell doom for pretty much anyone who isn't called Sandaime Raikage, Juubi Obito or certain chakra shroud users (a la BM Naruto and Susano'o users). As far as I recall, Kakuzu is not on that level of durability at all.

In spite of their size and power, Kakuzu's elemental nukes aren't all that fast and can be evaded rather easily, even by slower shinobi such as Ino and Chouji. There's also the fact that Raiton: Gian can be countered by Naruto's Fuuton affinity, as Fuuton > Raiton, and he can even summon Gamabunta/Gamakichi if he needs the latter's support for dealing with Kakuzu's admittedly massive Katon-and-Fuuton combination blast.

Once Gamabunta/Gamakichi comes in, the fight is officially over. Kakuzu has absolutely no way to injure this summon, if even a tailed beast like Shukaku struggled to bring it down, either through physical strength or massively powerful Fuuton missiles. Bunta's Suiton: Teppodama clashed with Renkudan in power, allowing it to easily trump each and every one of Kakuzu's elemental moves in a clash, while going through to harm the guy and pop a heart or two.

Naruto has canonically succeeded in outmanuevering Kakuzu's usage of Jiongu, so he can simply do so again, with much more skill in using the FRS and clones than ever before. There's no reason he should fail this time, especially as he's no longer tired and no longer PIS-gimped into using a brand new technique that he has only just developed, one whose weaknesses he has yet to get used to in the heat of battle.


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## ueharakk (Nov 14, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And increase his speed, strength, durability, jutsu strength and everything ?


nothing implied that any of those traits were affected by merely manifesting slitted eyes at all.  When naruto actually is powered up by KN0, he manifests an aura, gets red eyes, and his wiskers become more defined.  None of that happened in the manga, the only thing that was implied was that he got enough chakra to do one more FRS no stronger than the usual ones.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Knowledge isn't equal.
> Some are more valuable than others. Kakuzu's abilities are more subtle than Naruto's.


Whether or not knowledge on kakuzu's abilities are harder to obtain is irrelevant to knowledge being equal.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> It didn't only serve to that purpose.
> Kakuzu was like a cornered animal, he was literally cornered by superior numbers.
> 
> It was just a cruel death. Imagine a wounded beast being cornered by spears and can't move. And then one guy arrives just to deliver the killing blow.
> ...


Other than reveal that you might have some talent for making PETA commercials, your post didn't do anything.  Naruto only received backup after he was in the predicament due to his inexperience with FRS other than that it was a straight up 1 vs 1 match regardless of the spectators.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol no.
> Naruto doesn't run out of chakra, or complains about being tired in the entire manga, and even when he does, it doesn't effect his performance because he keeps fighting anyways.
> He is the main character and has a plot shield which negates other difficulties that other characters face.


naruto has run out of chakra many times during the manga, and it most definitely does affect his performance most of the times he does run out is when he stops fighting. 

Ran out against Gaara, couldn't even walk.
Ran out against Pain, couldn't even walk.
Ran out against Obito, could barely even stand.

Chakra was most definitely an issue when dealing with FRS unless you think naruto can spam that in base an infinite amount of times, and if naruto is running low on chakra he's obviously going to be conservative on his chakra use thus affecting his performance.

I don't understand what him being the main character has anything to do with the fight, and lol if anything Naruto is hindered by plot in his fights, not helped by it.  The very fact that FRS is even a kinjutsu is naruto being hindered by plot seeing as base kagebunshins are able to make and wield that technique.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naurto was only able to outmanuver Kakuzu because of Kn0 boost.
> I don't think without Kn0 speed boost current Naruto can outmanuver Kakuzu in the same manner.
> Especially when Kakuzu has his hearts and eventually more fire power to get rid of clones.
> And Domu kinda negates FRS anyways, as long as he can cast it.


Naruto had no speed boost, KN0 without manifesting an aura and without even enlarging the wiskers was never stated or implied to give naruto a significant boost in any physical aspect.  FRS fodderizes Domu by both databook hype and feats.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakuzu was still in one piece when he got a direct hit without domu and lost only 2 hearts.
> With domu he can tank it.


Why does Kakuzu being in one piece mean domu negates FRS?  the base variant isn't concentrated enough to cause total disintegration of the body, Kakuzu's 2 hearts were destroyed and despite his body being in tact, he was basically a living corpse.  Domu's best durability feat is protecting Kakuzu from *this attack.*  That magnitudes weaker than a base FRS, yet kakuzu still needed domu to defend against it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage kinda survived RM FRS, and no we aren't going by hype here. Come on


And that was 200 chapters after the databook came out.  When did the DB entry on domu come out?  Right when the entry of FRS came out, yet FRS gets no limits hype while domu doesn't even get no limits hype.  So sure the no-limits statement that FRS isn't true, but that's the same for any no-limits statement in the databook.  However, a no limits statement is still much better than a statement that says there is a limit especially when by feats that limit is an attack that's weaker than oodama rasengan.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakuzu casually wipes Naruto's clones with his elemental spam though. AOE abilities are Naruto's worst enemy.


AoE abilities aren't his worse nightmare, only AoE abilites that he can't counter.  Base naruto countered a roofsized katon with a normal rasengan back in part 1.  Current Naruto easily blows through any of kakuzu's katons with chou oodama rasengan.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Based on what?


Saving Sakura from Sasuke's stab, keeping up with him in base, and not being stab blitzed by Deva? Naruto has gotten many feats in base to put him on Kakashi and Sasuke's level of speed.




> This isn't just a Katon- it's a Katon+Fuuton combination attack. It is already directed by a gust of wind that is more powerful than any passive influence of a Rasengan variant.


Naruto can do this to power through it.

Hell even Ino and Choji (not even War Arc versions) could avoid the AOE of Kakuzu's attacks.


> With his Katon+Fuuton combo or with Gian.


This which can counter Deep Forest Emergence says otherwise. And Gian is countered by Futon: Rasengan. 



> Or he can get physical and trap Naruto the way he did Kakashi.


And what's topping a Substitution there?




> If you actually read my post, you'd notice that I never said that.
> 
> I said the extent to which it would damage Kakuzu with Domu activated is uncertain, and it is; there are no cap feats for Domu and no feats period for OFRS- thus, nothing to make a comparison.


Then we go for common sense that Domu can't defend against Rasenshuriken, much less Odama Rasenshuriken.




> He never suggested such a thing. He had already lost his Doton heart when he said FRS would kill him.


He was suggesting regardless, he can't get hit with it period.




> No way of knowing. Uncertain.


Then use common sense. FRS is more powerful than any attack that Kakuzu himself has tanked with Doton: Domu.


----------



## Jagger (Nov 14, 2013)

Laozy said:


> Hah, Kakuzu got raped off-panel by InoShikaCho + a few fodders.
> 
> Call it PnJ, but the fact still remains.


That train of thought is quite flawed. Lee alone empowered by the Kyuubi's chakra easily split Madara in half who we know that could have quickly activated Susano'O, preta Path or use his gunabi against the chunin.

There are several moments in a manga where victory is not enough to say 'A>B' due several conditions. 

Tobirama was apparently killed by fodders as well and Kakuzu didn't have any hearts back then.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> There's nothing indicating that FRS specifically, or any variant thereof, is strong enough to make the cut. More importantly, I didn't say OFRS would completely fail to damage Kakuzu's Domu- I simply stated that the extent to which it would do so is uncertain.



By saying a few jutsu, other than Raiton, can get past Domu leaves room to speculate. Specifically it doesn't disclude the logical inference that the jutsu "superpowers" are among those which can penetrate Domu's defence.


----------



## asstonine (Nov 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> regardless
> 
> This is Zukokku by itself:
> 
> ...



He will do the same thing Kakashi did, dodge it.  

Naruto was at least as worn out as Kakuzu was, so that isn't an excuse.

No way in hell Naruto loses this... The fight already happened FFS, and that was a far weaker version of naruto!



The World said:


> Doton armor would have helped back then
> 
> as well as 2 other hearts flying around as support
> 
> He beat a Kakuzu who was trying to defend from 3-4 other opponents and only 2 masks you knob



He chose not to use the mask he did have, and naruto has nothing to fear from those elemental scrubs flying around anyways.

He wasn't fighting 3-4 opponents either derpenstein!  
It was clear it was 1 on 1!

Anyone who thinks Kakuzu has any shot in hell when Naruto already won the fight in a much weaker state is a complete idiot.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Saving Sakura from Sasuke's stab, keeping up with him in base, and not being stab blitzed by Deva? Naruto has gotten many feats in base to put him on Kakashi and Sasuke's level of speed.



Sasuke was weakened from fighting Danzou when Naruto intervened and Naruto nearly did get stabbed by Pain Tendou (after being overrun in a single bound from hundreds of meters away).



> Naruto can do this to power through it.



Naruto used the Kyuubi's chakra for that.

Even if we assume he can do it normally, it will exhaust him far more than the Katon+Fuuton combo exhausts Kakuzu and then he'll be at a huge disadvantage.



> Hell even Ino and Choji (not even War Arc versions) could avoid the AOE of Kakuzu's attacks.



All they could do was stand there and shield their faces from the debris. The moment Kakuzu actively turned his aim on them with Gian, Kakashi had to save their asses.



> And Gian is countered by Futon: Rasengan.



Gian neutralized two Raikiri at the same time, so it isn't clear if a single Rasengan (albeit with the elemental advantage) would be powerful enough to stop it.



> And what's topping a Substitution there?



Topping, or stopping? Either way, Kakashi couldn't do it.



> Then we go for common sense that Domu can't defend against Rasenshuriken, much less Odama Rasenshuriken.



But no one ever said that Domu can't defend against FRS, so your "common sense" is predicated on a baseless assumption.



> He was suggesting regardless, he can't get hit with it period.



What part of the statement suggests that it would be the same even if he could use Domu?



> Then use common sense. FRS is more powerful than any attack that Kakuzu himself has tanked with Doton: Domu.



That doesn't mean it will be enough to defeat him. We don't actually have feats for the attack and we don't have cap feats for Domu, so there's no basis for comparison. Common sense can't dictate what has no empirical evidence in the first place.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> By saying a few jutsu, other than Raiton, can get past Domu leaves room to speculate. Specifically it doesn't disclude the logical inference that the jutsu "superpowers" are among those which can penetrate Domu's defence.



There are Jutsu more powerful than FRS, and the databook's commentary doesn't draw a clear line. A logical inference is only justified within the limitation of generality; there's no factual basis for claiming that FRS (or OFRS) specifically is capable of breaching Domu and killing Kakuzu.



asstonine said:


> He will do the same thing Kakashi did, dodge it.



Kakashi is faster and has the Sharingan. And Kakuzu still managed to catch him.



> Naruto was at least as worn out as Kakuzu was, so that isn't an excuse.



It's not an excuse; being at full power changes the tactics available to both of them and also changes how they can approach the fight mentally.



> No way in hell Naruto loses this... The fight already happened FFS, and that was a far weaker version of naruto!



This is a far stronger version of Kakuzu. That has Domu available.



> Anyone who thinks Kakuzu has any shot in hell when Naruto already won the fight in a much weaker state is a complete idiot.



Why don't you actually address the argument if you're so confident, then?


----------



## asstonine (Nov 14, 2013)

It is a far stronger version of naruto as well!

That is fanfiction bullshit!  Kakashi isn't faster than base Naruto anymore!  

What argument could you possibly have?  He already fucking won!  Shit already went down!  
Actually, he beat him twice!  He just lost the FRS the first time due to inexperience, and exhaustion. 

The fact he has two more hearts doesn't mean shit, because FRS is still a one shot!


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> There are Jutsu more powerful than FRS, and the databook's commentary doesn't draw a clear line. A logical inference is only justified within the limitation of generality; there's no factual basis for claiming that FRS (or OFRS) specifically is capable of breaching Domu and killing Kakuzu.


Logical inference:
FRS is stated by databook that no one can survive a direct hit.
Doton domu, which came out at the exact same time as FRS, was said that the amount of attacks that can get through it "is close to zero".

zero survivability > almost zero breachability   (cool words ne?)  

At the time the databook entry came out, 50% FRS was among the most powerful jutsu in the narutoverse only behind C3,C0, bijuudama and kirin (which is ruled out) in raw power.

If you want to go by feats, Domu's best defensive feat is blocking an attack that's probably not even more lethal than a normal rasengan. 

So either by feats or by hype, FRS breaches Domu.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> nothing implied that any of those traits were affected by merely manifesting slitted eyes at all.  When naruto actually is powered up by KN0, he manifests an aura, gets red eyes, and his wiskers become more defined.  None of that happened in the manga, the only thing that was implied was that he got enough chakra to do one more FRS no stronger than the usual ones.


He was using Kn0 chakra. So yeah, all of those qualities got naturally increased why wouldn't they ? 




> Whether or not knowledge on kakuzu's abilities are harder to obtain is irrelevant to knowledge being equal.


It is.
Naruto has a very limited arsenal and a straight forward fighting style.
Knowing that he uses clones doesn't help you either.

So having full knowledge on Naruto and having full knowledge on someone with more bag of tricks have a massive difference. This has to be no brainer.





> Other than reveal that you might have some talent for making PETA commercials, your post didn't do anything.  Naruto only received backup after he was in the predicament due to his inexperience with FRS other than that it was a straight up 1 vs 1 match regardless of the spectators.


So I guess being cornered and worn out wouldn't effect someones performance.

I'll make a spite thread about this 



> naruto has run out of chakra many times during the manga, and it most definitely does affect his performance most of the times he does run out is when he stops fighting.
> 
> Ran out against Gaara, couldn't even walk.


Wut ? when ? 
you mean after he defeated Gaara ?  who the fuck cares. I am talking about mid combat.



> Ran out against Pain, couldn't even walk.


Read above.



> Ran out against Obito, could barely even stand.


When ?



> Chakra was most definitely an issue when dealing with FRS unless you think naruto can spam that in base an infinite amount of times, and if naruto is running low on chakra he's obviously going to be conservative on his chakra use thus affecting his performance.


Chakra is never an issue for Naruto.
He runs out, Kyuubi backs up him or some other shit
I don't remember Naruto running out of chakra or stamina mid combat or being forced to conserve chakra.




> I don't understand what him being the main character has anything to do with the fight, and lol if anything Naruto is hindered by plot in his fights, not helped by it.  The very fact that FRS is even a kinjutsu is naruto being hindered by plot seeing as base kagebunshins are able to make and wield that technique.


Naruto is the main character so yeah he has a plot shield.
Whenever he fails, someone is there to save his ass.





> Naruto had no speed boost, KN0 without manifesting an aura and without even enlarging the wiskers was never stated or implied to give naruto a significant boost in any physical aspect.  FRS fodderizes Domu by both databook hype and feats.


The whiskers weren't enlarged but the eyes were definitely Kn0.
They colored Naruto's arrival page in the databook, and his eyes are drawn red.

So yeah his speed was increased, pretty significantly I'd say.




> Why does Kakuzu being in one piece mean domu negates FRS?  the base variant isn't concentrated enough to cause total disintegration of the body, Kakuzu's 2 hearts were destroyed and despite his body being in tact, he was basically a living corpse.  Domu's best durability feat is protecting Kakuzu from *this attack.*  That magnitudes weaker than a base FRS, yet kakuzu still needed domu to defend against it.


I don't get the deal with Chouji, his attack didn't even scratch Kakuzu. 




> And that was 200 chapters after the databook came out.  When did the DB entry on domu come out?  Right when the entry of FRS came out, yet FRS gets no limits hype while domu doesn't even get no limits hype.  So sure the no-limits statement that FRS isn't true, but that's the same for any no-limits statement in the databook.  However, a no limits statement is still much better than a statement that says there is a limit especially when by feats that limit is an attack that's weaker than oodama rasengan.


Ok but you are trying to draw out an ambigious conclusion from a databook hype.
There is nothing substantial about this.




> AoE abilities aren't his worse nightmare, only AoE abilites that he can't counter.  Base naruto countered a roofsized katon with a normal rasengan back in part 1.  Current Naruto easily blows through any of kakuzu's katons with chou oodama rasengan.



It is because it doesn't matter if you have 100 shinobi or 1 against an Aoe attack.
For example an attack like Chidori can only land on 1 person.
So if you send 10 clones after a guy who is using chidori, then your clones will most likely be OK.
You can't say the same thing about a huge wall of fire.


And Naruto can't blow shit.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 14, 2013)

Y'know, Naruto is still allowed to summon. Fukasaku and Shima's mere appearance could make a huge difference to how well this battle turns out.



Nikushimi said:


> There are Jutsu more powerful than FRS, and the databook's commentary doesn't draw a clear line. A logical inference is only justified within the limitation of generality; there's no factual basis for claiming that FRS (or OFRS) specifically is capable of breaching Domu and killing Kakuzu.



As ueharakk said, FRS was among thee most powerful jutsu when details of Domu were released, alongside jutsu like Kirin, Kamui and Yobi Naruto's Bijuu Dama and any super powered jutsu up to the Itachi arc. 

I never said there's a factual basis, I said it gives us room to speculate. It also happens to be logical to infer that one of the most powerful jutsu around that time would be among the jutsu that can get through Domu. 

Hence it was such an amazing feat that the Raikage could survive FRS, that should've killed a person without the Raikage's unique body. It depends, would you believe Domu is on the same level as the Sandaime Raikage's ultimate defence? If so, why wasn't Domu given more hype?


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 14, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He was using Kn0 chakra. So yeah, all of those qualities got naturally increased why wouldn't they ?


KN0 chakra is just kyuubi chakra in a certain quantity, it doesn't increase naruto's stats unless it puts him into a form with a shroud, else it's just simply Kurama giving chakra to base naruto like he did in the war.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is.
> Naruto has a very limited arsenal and a straight forward fighting style.
> Knowing that he uses clones doesn't help you either.
> 
> So having full knowledge on Naruto and having full knowledge on someone with more bag of tricks have a massive difference. This has to be no brainer.


Um sure you can argue that, but it's irrelevant to the stipulation of 'knowledge' as some people benefit more from knowledge while others don't.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> So I guess being cornered and worn out wouldn't effect someones performance.
> 
> I'll make a spite thread about this


Not significantly no, especially if NAruto tells the others to back off and if the other guy is worn out as well.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Wut ? when ?
> you mean after he defeated Gaara ?  who the fuck cares. I am talking about mid combat.


why does it matter if he runs out mid-combat?  Your entire point was about naruto not being able to run out, if he can run out then obviously it's something he needs to take into account.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Read above.


read above



Grimmjowsensei said:


> When ?


immediately after son goku was sealed.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Chakra is never an issue for Naruto.
> He runs out, Kyuubi backs up him or some other shit
> I don't remember Naruto running out of chakra or stamina mid combat or being forced to conserve chakra.


The mere fact that Naruto explicitly is stated to have a limit on FRS and the fact that he doesn't go spamming waves and waves of thousands of cloens using rasengan variants shows that chakra is an issue for him and thus limits his performance just like anyone else.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto is the main character so yeah he has a plot shield.
> Whenever he fails, someone is there to save his ass.


Never argued that he didn't have a plot shield so the first statement is irrelevant.  Second one has nothing to do with naruto's abilities in a versus thread where he doesn't have someone there to save him, so again, irrelevant.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> The whiskers weren't enlarged but the eyes were definitely Kn0.
> They colored Naruto's arrival page in the databook, and his eyes are drawn red.
> 
> So yeah his speed was increased, pretty significantly I'd say.


Please show me when naruto has ever been stated or implied to have any increase in any physical stat by simply manifesting slitted eyes.  If naruto had a significant speed or physical stat increase, the manga would have made not of such a thing so no, you don't have any basis for saying his speed was increased at all let along 'significantly' increased.  and finally, current base naruto with his feats of keeping up with sasuke fighting off deva path, restraining kakashi puts him at a much higher speed than naruto from 300 chapters ago.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't get the deal with Chouji, his attack didn't even scratch Kakuzu.


That's domu's best durability feat and coming out of an attack like that unscathed does not imply you can tank a base FRS.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok but you are trying to draw out an ambigious conclusion from a databook hype.
> There is nothing substantial about this.


That's not how argumentation works.  You can't simply say "your claims aren't substantial enough" you have to give an argument for the conclusion you believe is true, compare that to the counterargument and decide which is more supported the pro or the con.  Else no matter the amount of evidence that is brought up, if you don't like the conclusion, you can simply say "not substantial" since it's just your own subjective opinion and no one can peg an rating type of opinion as objectively true or false only the relativity of the opinion.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is because it doesn't matter if you have 100 shinobi or 1 against an Aoe attack.
> For example an attack like Chidori can only land on 1 person.
> So if you send 10 clones after a guy who is using chidori, then your clones will most likely be OK.
> You can't say the same thing about a huge wall of fire.


I already know that and that's been taken into account which is why I said IF NARUTO HAS COUNTERS to them.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And Naruto can't blow shit.


That's simply an assertion, unless you support it with an argument it's a baseless one and a concession on your part on that point.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 14, 2013)

asstonine said:


> It is a far stronger version of naruto as well!



...Fighting a far stronger version of Kakuzu.



> That is fanfiction bullshit!  Kakashi isn't faster than base Naruto anymore!



The last databook showed a significant gap between them in speed and Naruto has undergone no training to improve his physical abilities since then.



> What argument could you possibly have?



The argument is that Kakuzu has Domu this time and has enough chakra to make liberal use of his Ninjutsu.



> He already fucking won!  Shit already went down!
> Actually, he beat him twice!  He just lost the FRS the first time due to inexperience, and exhaustion.



The circumstances are different; both combatants are at full health with more techniques available.



> The fact he has two more hearts doesn't mean shit, because FRS is still a one shot!



That remains to be established.



ueharakk said:


> Logical inference:
> FRS is stated by databook that no one can survive a direct hit.
> Doton domu, which came out at the exact same time as FRS, was said that the amount of attacks that can get through it "is close to zero".
> 
> zero survivability > almost zero breachability   (cool words ne?)



I guess someone forgot to tell the 3rd Raikage.



> At the time the databook entry came out, 50% FRS was among the most powerful jutsu in the narutoverse only behind C3,C0, bijuudama and kirin (which is ruled out) in raw power.



The point is that it isn't the most powerful, so there is no implication that it can breach Domu.



> If you want to go by feats, Domu's best defensive feat is blocking an attack that's probably not even more lethal than a normal rasengan.
> 
> So either by feats or by hype, FRS breaches Domu.



Domu's feats never exhibited its maximum potential, which is why I keep pointing out that we lack cap feats for the Jutsu.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As ueharakk said, FRS was among thee most powerful jutsu when details of Domu were released, alongside jutsu like Kirin, Kamui and Yobi Naruto's Bijuu Dama and any super powered jutsu up to the Itachi arc.
> 
> I never said there's a factual basis, I said it gives us room to speculate. It also happens to be logical to infer that one of the most powerful jutsu around that time would be among the jutsu that can get through Domu.



Speculation is fine for what it is, but inference implies evidence, of which there is none.

It _could_ breach Domu, maybe... But, like I keep saying, nothing conclusively indicates if it would or how much damage it would do. I never claimed it would outright fail to do anything, but I do take issue with people nonchalantly claiming it'd be a one-hit-wonder.



> Hence it was such an amazing feat that the Raikage could survive FRS, that should've killed a person without the Raikage's unique body. It depends, would you believe Domu is on the same level as the Sandaime Raikage's ultimate defence?



Yeah, I would believe it. I don't necessarily, but it's not something that would require me to rethink any of my previous assumptions/conclusions, either.



> If so, why wasn't Domu given more hype?



That's a question only Kishi can answer. I'd expect that it has something to do with the fact that Domu is a Jutsu that augments durability and has to be activated, whereas the Raikage's superhuman durability is a passive characteristic of his body. Or it could also be that Kakuzu with Domu is not as durable as the 3rd.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I guess someone forgot to tell the 3rd Raikage.


They didn't forget to tell him as he didn't exist at the time the third databook was made, and as we all know you can't forget to tell someone something if that person doesn't exist.  Although the 3rd raikage didn't exist, there is something else that existed at that time, and it's called doton domu.




Nikushimi said:


> The point is that it isn't the most powerful, so there is no implication that it can breach Domu.




Does Domu state that only the single most powerful jutsu can breach it?  If not, then your conclusion does not follow from your reasoning.  Domu is stated that the amount of attacks that can breach it are close to zero.  FRS is among the top 4ish most powerful jutsus in NV at that time and was stated to be unsurvivable if directly hit.  Obviously that's more than a  mere implication that FRS breaches domu.




Nikushimi said:


> Domu's feats never exhibited its maximum potential, which is why I keep pointing out that we lack cap feats for the Jutsu.


Well then obviously if feats are lacking then what other method of evaluation do we have?  HYPE!!!! and by HYPE domu obviously loses to FRS.

You can't just jerrymander this into eternity and say "we don't have sufficient feats so you can't say it doesn't break it" and wait for what you deem as 'sufficient feats' which will never come since kakuzu is gone.  By your logic you can't say any attack that isn't a raiton can breach domu, that includes PS swords, Totsuka and the juubidama because of the less evil version of the no-limits fallacy argument you are catering to.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 14, 2013)

Lmao.

I mean...its like...Shit.
I'm at a loss for words.

Kakuzu vs Naruto.
Mothrfucker got off panelled.

As if I would waste 2 seconds of my DAY to even ARGUE that Naruto would embarrass him.
My fellow Naruto supporters...I must say I am highly surprised by the amount of nonsense you guys tolerate in recent threads.

This match is a no-brainer yet. It's like STILL WONDERING IF HASHIRAMA IS SUPERIOR TO HIRUZEN.
That's how bad it is.
Oh good lord.

Naruto gains access to 4 Boss Summons
Counters one of Base Hashirama's strongest Jutsus.
Fights the Leader of Akatsuki in Taijutsu casually.
Faces every legendary shinobi known to man and gains incomprehensible experience & knowledge.

And now we offend him by QUESTIONING if he could defeat Kakuzu. 
I'm done.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 14, 2013)

All depends if PIS is in this fight and it's the incredibly ridiculous amount that was in their first fight then yea naruto wins but if there is no PIS kakuzu takes this 50 meters is far enough for kakuzu to spam all his Jutsu to the point were naruto will not be able to get close to him or even make a FRS.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 14, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Lmao.
> 
> I mean...its like...Shit.
> I'm at a loss for words.
> ...



You greatly overrate naruto by miles. It's like you don't take I the fact narutos fights are all handed to him. Almost all his fights he's just given the win and almost all his wins to me are stupid


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 14, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> You greatly overrate naruto by miles. It's like you don't take I the fact narutos fights are all handed to him. Almost all his fights he's just given the win and almost all his wins to me are stupid



In part 2, pretty much every one of his fights had either equal or greater PIS or plot hindrances on Naruto's part.


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 15, 2013)

asstonine said:


> It is a far stronger version of naruto as well!
> 
> That is fanfiction bullshit!  Kakashi isn't faster than base Naruto anymore!
> 
> ...



This is ridiculous, you're a bad troll or an hater.

Kakashi sprinted and landed Raikiri on some Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 jinchuriki, the same who were landing hits on KCM Naruto and dodging Hachibi like the easiest thing in the world. Kakashi intercepted and outspeeded Obito, who could physically perfectly keep up with KCM/BM Naruto speed (no Shunshin speed). Kakashi is one of the fastest ninja in the whole world, and also now can use Kamui to teleport in places.

On topic, Naruto wins with mid diff. Kage Bunshin troll than FRS.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> KN0 chakra is just kyuubi chakra in a certain quantity, it doesn't increase naruto's stats unless it puts him into a form with a shroud, else it's just simply Kurama giving chakra to base naruto like he did in the war.


No, there is a difference. Naruto's eyes were Kn0 in the Kakuzu instance, which indicates that Naruto was boosted by the chakra potency of Kyuubi.




> Um sure you can argue that, but it's irrelevant to the stipulation of 'knowledge' as some people benefit more from knowledge while others don't.


You claimed that Kakuzu also had full knowledge in the fight, implying that the playground was even.
Just pointing that i wasn't remotely close.





> Not significantly no, especially if NAruto tells the others to back off and if the other guy is worn out as well.


Naruto being worn out didn't effect his performance, wasn't stated or shown.

And you need some kind of mobility against a technique which has potential to oneshot you if it lands and if you have no way to tank it.
Kakuzu was cornered, was forced to take the blow.




> why does it matter if he runs out mid-combat?  Your entire point was about naruto not being able to run out, if he can run out then obviously it's something he needs to take into account.


Becuase unless he runs out of chakra during the fight, then running out of chakra doesn't effect him in anyway in BD stipulations.





> read above


You read above.




> immediately after son goku was sealed.


No he wasn't. Kyuubi gave him chakra.




> The mere fact that Naruto explicitly is stated to have a limit on FRS and the fact that he doesn't go spamming waves and waves of thousands of cloens using rasengan variants shows that chakra is an issue for him and thus limits his performance just like anyone else.
> 
> Never argued that he didn't have a plot shield so the first statement is irrelevant.  Second one has nothing to do with naruto's abilities in a versus thread where he doesn't have someone there to save him, so again, irrelevant.



The fact that there is always a cop out mechanism to save Naruto from running out of chakra makes it impossible to tell what Naruto's actual limit is in BD. 

Naruto, with a few exceptions(Gaara & Kiba come to my mind) always relied on a form of a power up or a back up unit in his fights. 

Running out of stamina or chakra never actually hindered his performance nor he was worried about doing so.




> Please show me when naruto has ever been stated or implied to have any increase in any physical stat by simply manifesting slitted eyes.  If naruto had a significant speed or physical stat increase, the manga would have made not of such a thing so no, you don't have any basis for saying his speed was increased at all let along 'significantly' increased.  and finally, current base naruto with his feats of keeping up with sasuke fighting off deva path, restraining kakashi puts him at a much higher speed than naruto from 300 chapters ago.


here.
* fast movement *

Naruto isn't fast in base. But he was shown moving fast.

Also we know that Kyuubi eye shows that Naruto is utilizing the quality part of Kyuubi's chakra, not just quantity.
Quality part increases, durability, strength, speed and jutsu potency.

This a known fact.




> That's domu's best durability feat and coming out of an attack like that unscathed does not imply you can tank a base FRS.


I didn't say that, but you made it sound like Domu's limit is Chouji's attack. 
I am making the assumption based on the condition Kakuzu is in after getting hit by FRS without the aid his ultimate defense technique.



> That's not how argumentation works.  You can't simply say "your claims aren't substantial enough" you have to give an argument for the conclusion you believe is true, compare that to the counterargument and decide which is more supported the pro or the con.  Else no matter the amount of evidence that is brought up, if you don't like the conclusion, you can simply say "not substantial" since it's just your own subjective opinion and no one can peg an rating type of opinion as objectively true or false only the relativity of the opinion.



Databook hype comparison will get us nowhere given those 2 statements weren't used in conjunction with each other.
Lets just leave it @ that.




> I already know that and that's been taken into account which is why I said IF NARUTO HAS COUNTERS to them.


How is he going to counter them ? Did you see the scale of Kakuzu's fire+fuuton combos ? 



> That's simply an assertion, unless you support it with an argument it's a baseless one and a concession on your part on that point.



I don't get how you make the assumption that Naruto can counter Kakuzu's fuuton + Katon combo just by looking @ him tanking Sasuke's katon back in part 1.
I'd say the strenght difference between part 1 Sasuke's Katon & Kakuzu's Fuuton+Katon combo is much bigger than the difference Naruto's rasengan and Chou Odaama rasengan.


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, there is a difference. Naruto's eyes were Kn0 in the Kakuzu instance, which indicates that Naruto was boosted by the chakra potency of Kyuubi.


slitted eyes only show the kyuubi's influence, on naruto through use of its chakra, it's chakra isn't any different in quality than what naruto got in the war.  So no, Naruto was not boosted by the charkra potency of Kurama, and if he was, it wasn't significant.  Oh and see naruto vs neiji chunin exams, naruto vs gaara and naruto vs kisame and itachi as in all of those fights he uses kurama's chakra, gets powerboosted by the quality due to the manifestation of a shroud, yet doesn't possess those eyes.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You claimed that Kakuzu also had full knowledge in the fight, implying that the playground was even.
> Just pointing that i wasn't remotely close.


Kakuzu nor naruto had full knowledge in the fight, but the knowledge stipulation which is that they knew about each other's general abilities was even so no it is close.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto being worn out didn't effect his performance, wasn't stated or shown.


Him being character stated to be worn out is proof that it affected his performance, if it didn't then there's no reason to make such a statement.  And you have zero way to assert that point since you aren't shown a non-worn out naruto so you don't know by feats or showings how much better he would have done if not worn out.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And you need some kind of mobility against a technique which has potential to oneshot you if it lands and if you have no way to tank it.
> Kakuzu was cornered, was forced to take the blow.


Kakuzu was in no way cornered, he had an entire forest to move in and naruto's allies were keeping at a distance, it was clearly a 1 vs 1 fight.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Becuase unless he runs out of chakra during the fight, then running out of chakra doesn't effect him in anyway in BD stipulations.


Again that's logically incoherent as unless he literally can't run out of chakra, the only reason he doesn't run out of chakra during a fight is because he conserves enough to last the fight by not spamming moves that allow him to do so.

Oh but if you seriously want to give base naruto to never run out of chakra in a fight, then Naruto fodderizes kakuzu with waves of thousands of kagebunshins using oodama rasengans.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> No he wasn't. Kyuubi gave him chakra.


yeah it gave him chakra after he was completely drained showing that he does have limits.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> The fact that there is always a cop out mechanism to save Naruto from running out of chakra makes it impossible to tell what Naruto's actual limit is in BD.




That's easily false.  Naruto's chakra limits are the amount of chakra he can use before being exhausted.  If he's exhausted after a fight then everything he used in the fight under his own powers is his chakra limits.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto, with a few exceptions(Gaara & Kiba come to my mind) always relied on a form of a power up or a back up unit in his fights.
> 
> Running out of stamina or chakra never actually hindered his performance nor he was worried about doing so.


He always worries about doing so just like any mortal character, if he didn't worry about that then he would just spam thousands of bunshins with rasengan variants all day, if he wasn't worried about that he wouldn't have been explicitly stated to have a 2-3 FRS limit against kakuzu, if he wasn't worried about that he wouldn't opt to limit the amount of clones he makes in order to conserve chakra.  His and any shinobi's stamina is the limiting factor of how much jutsu they can use in a fight, a shinobi alliance fodder can fight longer than Naruto if naruto immediately blows all his chakra on clones and rasengan variants.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> against him.
> * fast movement *
> 
> Naruto isn't fast in base. But he was shown moving fast.


Well, I guess current Naruto is more than capable of outspeeding chapter 340 NAruto since he's *considered fast 200 chapters ago.*



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also we know that Kyuubi eye shows that Naruto is utilizing the quality part of Kyuubi's chakra, not just quantity.
> Quality part increases, durability, strength, speed and jutsu potency.
> 
> This a known fact.


Except that's not fact, it's false.  Him showing the kyuubi's eye shows that he's under the kyuubi's mental influence it has nothing to do with the quality of the kyuubi's chakra.  Thus it's just like base naruto getting the kyuubis chakra to fight off madara's mokuton, he experienced no increase of jutsu power and no increase in physical movement speed.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't say that, but you made it sound like Domu's limit is Chouji's attack.
> I am making the assumption based on the condition Kakuzu is in after getting hit by FRS without the aid his ultimate defense technique.


And i don't understand why that assumption would lead to domu not being breached.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Databook hype comparison will get us nowhere given those 2 statements weren't used in conjunction with each other.
> Lets just leave it @ that.


That's basically ignoring my argument and thus a concession of that point on your part.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> How is he going to counter them ? Did you see the scale of Kakuzu's fire+fuuton combos ?
> 
> I don't get how you make the assumption that Naruto can counter Kakuzu's fuuton + Katon combo just by looking @ him tanking Sasuke's katon back in part 1.
> I'd say the strenght difference between part 1 Sasuke's Katon & Kakuzu's Fuuton+Katon combo is much bigger than the difference Naruto's rasengan and Chou Odaama rasengan.


Um, no it isn't.  a chou oodama rasengan that *has a diameter much greater than naruto's height *is hundreds of times larger than a rasengan that can fit in the palm of naruto's hand, Kakuzu's katon isn't hundreds of times larger than *Sasuke's katon.*

In addition to that, Naruto doesn't even have to block the entire katon, he just has to defend against the part that's by him or his clones, so nap.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 15, 2013)

To Grimmjowsensei: What makes you think that Kakuzu was cornered? Naruto told everyone to back off and let him face Kakuzu by himself, and it's not like they were fighting in a narrow alley or anything. 

Kakuzu outright stated that Naruto was worn out. Just because Naruto was able to defeat the masked Akatsuki doesn't mean that he wasn't affected by fatigue or anything. Also, it's kind of funny how you presume to know even more than the manga characters themselves, claiming that Nardo wasn't affected by fatigue but Kakuzu was, even though there was absolutely no evidence to the contrary, especially in the latter case. At any rate, should I believe Kakuzu himself, or do I believe you? 

IIRC, Kakashi's Suiton: Suijinheki enabled him to hold off Kakuzu's Katon-and-Fuuton combination for some time, and Naruto has access to far, far stronger Suitons through his summons. Also, don't act like Kakuzu survived Naruto's FRS in his base, exposed state. The guy was practically using his final form, with him covering up through Jiongu tentacles and having his chakra level shoot up and everything. I'm pretty sure that would've given him an extra level of durability too.

Kakuzu survived Naruto's FRS without having his body destroyed, but Shoten Kisame still had his body intact after being blasted by Gai's Asa Kujaku (which vaporized an entire ocean) and Shoten Itachi was in a much better state after being hit by Naruto's Odama Rasengan, than Kabuto was after being hit by a kid Naruto's regular Rasengan (before activating Inyu Shometsu). Durability inconsistencies are common in this manga, so I wouldn't take it too seriously.

Preta Realm survived a direct football tackle from SM Naruto, even though just earlier in the fight, a single punch from not even SM Naruto himself, but the natural energy surrounding him (which should be a lot weaker than an actual punch being enhanced by that same energy), was enough to break his neck. The Hachibi can survive its own Bijudama with less damage than that received from Saiken's alkaline slime, even though the former is supposed to be a lot stronger.

But I can keep going. The Juubi can tank its own Bijudama and Gyuuki's own exploding inside of its mouth, yet BM Naruto's FRS can cut through it like butter. SM Naruto and non-Susano'o Sasuke somehow have equal durability in the recent chapters, as evident from their injuries after hitting the ground. SM Naruto also somehow had his shoulder dislocated by one of the Juubi's attacks, even though complete fodders managed to survive this attack without breaking any bones or anything.

Kisame is not immediately knocked out by 7th gated Gai's Hirudora, even though his punches in the 6th gated state were already strong enough to make him bleed out of his mouth. Human Realm gets his eyes obliterated by a single kick from SM Jiraiya, yet moments later, Human Realm can block another attack from Jiraiya without breaking a sweat. Ei is forced to lose his arm after exposure to un-concentrated Amaterasu flames, the same ones that failed to do permanent damage to Karin or a fodder samurai.

At any rate, Kakuzu got pierced and cut by regular swords employed by Kotetsu and Izumo, so it's not like his actual durability is anything profound, outside of Domu. It's the combination of Domu and his five-heart system that makes him so damn tough to kill. The former amps up his durability, true, but the latter has nothing to do with durability, only endurance. You guys need to think out of the box and listen to the message Kishimoto is trying to send us readers here.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Nov 15, 2013)

Current base Naruto would demolish Kakuzu in a straight fight. taking on juubi clones with nothing but taijutsu? Spamming Odama Rasengans in an instant?


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## Mercurial (Nov 15, 2013)

Naruto has grown a long way since the time he trolled Kakuzu two times with his bushinjutsu.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> In part 2, pretty much every one of his fights had either equal or greater PIS or plot hindrances on Naruto's part.



No not at all they are all handed to him. What fights other than the obito vs naruto fight was there PIS. For him


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 15, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> No not at all they are all handed to him. What fights other than the obito vs naruto fight was there PIS. For him


Most of the battles Naruto has gone into in Part II were when he's already exhausted from training. And how is his defeats of Mu, the Sandaime Raikage, Deva Path, PIS?


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> No not at all they are all handed to him. What fights other than the obito vs naruto fight was there PIS. For him



against Pain, Kurama, Nagato, and Madara.  Besides Kakuzu and obito, those are all his biggest fights in part 2.

Also PIS doesn't encompass 'lucky or unlucky coincidence,' since those aren't controlled by the decision-making of the characters that they help or hinder.


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