# OPBD Formal Debate Series #2: Is Marco Admiral Level?



## StrawHat4Life (Feb 16, 2014)

*Judges* 
Lord Melkor
♦Young Master♦
Venom
Unclear Justice
Sakazuki
Urouge
Slenderman


*How this will work:* 


*Opening Round:* One member from each team will post an opening argument for their side. Please provide relevant scans and links for all evidence cited.


*Main Rebuttal Round:* One member from each team will post a unified rebuttal to the opposing side's opening argument.


*Rapid Fire Round:* Members from each team may address each other in direct debate. Judges may ask questions or ask for clarifications, but nothing else. 


*Summation:* One member from each team will post a closing argument. Every member of the team must have input.  


*Voting:* Judges will post their verdict. They must explain their reasoning and cite specific arguments made by each team. Remember, you are voting on which team made the most convincing argument. Your personal opinion on the topic should be irrelevant.

*Only debaters and judges may post in this thread. Flaming will not be tolerated and will result in an automatic DQ for the offender.

Good luck and have fun!* ​
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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 16, 2014)

*Teams have 72 hours to present their opening arguments. *


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## Shanks (Feb 19, 2014)

*The Opening Argument *

*Spoiler*: __ 



_
   He will not be denied_


   Strength & Haki. Marco was able to force Kizaru into a guarded position, actually break through his guard, bypass his logia intangibility, & send him crashing to ground from an insane distance, at an insane speed.         After which, Kizaru even warned the other marines to be weary of Marco. He also came at Aokiji with enough power, he broke through his weapon & still had enough force to send him flying.  This let's you know he is par with the admirals at least when it comes to physical strength. If not, they would have been stalemated in the air & Kizaru wouldn't have went flying...or at least could have stopped himself mid-crash. or even better yet, just completely overpower him. None of this was the case. Pretty sure the opposing team will respectfully bring up Marco's supposed inability to noticeably harm or faze the admirals in those clashes, to which we will gladly counter address & fully elaborate on in the main rebuttal.      

 Speed. Look at the initial distance to where the ships are  & where they were in the sky . Marco made that distance in 2 panels making even Kizaru become alert. The* "!" *, coming from Kizaru is not just there for show.  Literally, one of the best pure speed feats in the manga. Marco was able to easily intercept multiple attacks from Kizaru & engage with him in combat for a period of time through out the entire war. & this is against the fastest admiral. This let's you know he is par with the admirals at least when it comes to raw speed & reaction. 

Stamina & Endurance. He clashed with all 3 admirals plenty of times, took a punch from Garp, & multiple lasers in back from Kizaru  even while under the effects of sea-stone(even a blast right through the chest) & showed no signs of slowing down even till the end . Kizaru even gave note of his resistance. Translation courtesy of Cnet. 


> Marco: Ngh...
> Kizaru: Dear, dear... you did let your guard down... // But you really do just bounce right back... "Phoenix" Marco...



Defense.  One of the best, if not the best in the series. No explanation needed. But I'll say this. Marco's hax defense & stamina allows him to almost control the match at his pace. His opponent is forced to fight as long his regeneration last,(*which we have no idea the limit to yet)* & bust out they're big techniques very often just to have a slight chance of hurting him. Just look at how many opponents he faced & how many attacks he took(some even without his DF) & still showed no serious signs of slowing down at MF. That along with great mobility, speed & reflexes enough to keep up & match with Kizaru. Marco is not easy opponent for anyone. It would be almost unfair if he had insane AoE & destructive power to match his defense. Of course the admirals who can fight 10 days straight should have to problem with this, not saying they're at a disadvantage, but the match will be drawn out.  This lets you know he's par with the admirals, if not having the edge, when it comes to defensive capabilities. 

& lastly his hype from the Gorosei. This was a legit statement made by the most knowledgeable & highest authority figures in the manga. Not by some background fodder who are over-exaggerating. If anybody's word's hold any meaning, it's theirs. Here's their statement given by the cnet translation. 





> Blackbeard has already begun to take action in the New World... / ...and one of those rookies exceeding a hundred million in bounty has already fallen prey to him. // He is all too familiar with the territory that Whitebeard controlled. // Amongst those pirates striving to fill the vacant seat in the Yonkou... / ...he has a clear head start. There is, after all, no record of any man before him successfully consuming two Devil's Fruits. // If anybody can put a stop to his advance, it would have to be the Yonkou themselves... // ...or else Marco the Phoenix and the other remnants of the Whitebeard Pirates. // It is always those with the D who cause such trouble... Just like Portgas... // It would seem that the name has become rather too exposed at this point...


Marco's name was clearly spoken separately from the rest of the crew, indication that he is the strongest & most important member. They considered him specifically out his group & made the comparison. Just like you would say Shanks & the Red Hair....Big Mom & the Big Mom pirates....Marco & the WB remnants..etc etc. It's going to be crew vs crew & of course captain vs captain. When they said stopping Teach, pretty sure that didn't mean just Teach by himself. *Even after losing their captain, their 2nd division commander, their 3rd division commander being permanently crippled, & overall their entire crew being severely crippled, distraught, & emotional torn after battling the entire force of the WG, they were still compared to the other yonkou with Marco as their leader.
*

*To end the initial argument, no one's saying he can beat an admiral or even push them extreme-diff. But everything's he shown suggest he's on par with them & could at least give them high-diff. Just because he lacks a lethal & flashy offense with insane AoE doesn't take away from his speed, strength, stamina, godly defense, hype & portrayal or means he gets significantly outclassed by them.* He's in the same league as the admirals more or less & he doesn't have to be dead equal to them. Same as any other yonkou first mates. Sanji is m3 level, is  he not? But there's no way he's ever beating Luffy or even pushing him to his absolute limits.  & granted he may not really carry the same presence as some of the other top fighters & his main attributes lie in defense rather than attack. 
But, that all being said you cant deny his portrayal. Oda had him fight every single admiral on panel at one point. He may have not shown to be able to do any visible damage to them but yet they never really bothered him either (you can use his fruit as an excuse, *but that doesn't change the fact that its an ability he always has*). In fact the only time Oda had Marco get significantly injured is when another VA had to provide Kizaru with assistance during a moment of distraction.

_ - credit all goes to Bitty_

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Vengeance (Feb 19, 2014)

Greetings to all having a look at the debate, we hope it is entertaining for you. Now in order to discuss whether Marco is admiral level or not we have to discuss a few things, so lets get started.

*Admiral level*

Debating whether Marco is admiral level or not, of course there first has to be given a solid definition of what exactly admiral level is. It is general knowledge that the rank of marine admiral requires an enormous level of personal strength and that all of the known admirals are among the strongest characters in the OP Verse, being crowned “Ultimate Assault Force” by the WG () and all being more or less on par (in overall combat ability of course). Therefore the sensible definition of admiral level is that to be on that level, a character has to be virtually on par with known admirals in combat ability and consequently must have a legitimate chance of beating one in a fair one on one fight. Thus if the feats show evidence that the admirals have better overall combat ability than a certain character and that this character has failed to demonstrate he has any chance of defeating an admiral in 1 vs. 1 fair combat, then this character can not be considered admiral level.

*Why people think Marco is admiral level.*

Based on Marco's portrayal in the Marineford War and his first commander status many people believe he is admiral level, especially his skirmish with Kizaru but also his encounters with Akainu and Aokiji are used for that interpretation. What we want to show in our argumentation is that those battle scenes and other incidents and circumstances utilized are not nearly enough for a solid basis to claim he is virtually on par with said people. Conversely our analysis will demonstrate that rather the opposite is evident.

*Why he can't be considered admiral level.*

First we will give the most prominent and best feats of Marco in the Marineford War, following an analysis of them. 
As this is just meant as a sort of overview, a more detailed elaboration will be done when the need arises.

*▪ The encounter with Aokiji*
Marco kicking away Aokiji who doesn't pay attention to him, thus preventing Luffy from further harm:

* 
▪ The skirmish with Kizaru*
Blocking Kizaru's attack aimed at Whitebeard:

Following a quite harmless skirmish, both are more or less unscathed:



*▪ The fight against Akainu*
After Ace has received the deadly blow by Akainu, the enraged Marco and Vista start a surprise attack against the admiral:

Marco successfully holding off Akainu who wants to kill Luffy:

Marco and the other commanders facing Akainu (who has returned after his severe beat down at the hands of Whitebeard):

Akainu is still on rampage after stated confrontation:



These are the best feats Marco has to offer, clearly portraying that Marco has the means to hold off an admiral for a period of time. But do these scenes also suggest that he is virtually on par with them, being able to defeat one? The answer has to be no.

His kicks against Aokiji and Kizaru are quite impressive, but in the end they did close to no harm. One of his most impressive feats, being able to hold off Akainu for at least a short time, pales when we think about the fact that his surprise attack together with commander Vista (both being enraged because of the deadly blow Ace received shortly before) is basically not more than “irritating” the admiral. And even after the latter has suffered a severe beat down at the hands of Whitebeard, Marco and the other commanders confronting him still fail to stop the battered admiral from rampaging. Consequently all of these scenes show that while Marco has an impressive defense at top level which seemingly allows him to fight overall stronger opponents on equal grounds, he also lacks the ability to strike decisive blows at or near the level the admirals have shown. The apparent lack of such capability, depicted in a time of great need for it, draws the line between the level of Marco and the level of admirals. Marco has failed to show that he could actually defeat one of them.

Also we always have to keep in mind what complete monsters the admirals are in the area of combat. Kizaru received no noticeable injury during  the entire war, even though he went 1vs.1 with Whitebeard. In fact he outmaneuvered Whitebeard and put a  hole in his .  Akainu had enough durability to take an island busting attack to the  and didn't stay down, and we know Aokiji was a perfect match for that guy in a fight that lasted for  and permanently changed the weather of an island.

To conclude: Based on the stated definition of admiral level, Marco can't be counted as being on that level because his feats and portrayal display that he only has the sufficient means to keep one busy, but not to defeat one in fair 1 vs.1 combat. If he has no chance of beating an admiral, he can not be on their level and has to be below it. How far below is a debate for another time.




_Thanks to 2Broken and Dr. White._


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 19, 2014)

*Teams have 48 hours to post a main rebuttal.*


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## Mihawk (Feb 20, 2014)

First of all I'd like to wish our opponents good luck and I hope that we all have fun in this.
Hopefully, we can all remained fairly civilized throughout this ordeal.  

A note: My rebuttal is rather extensive, so bear with it, and it will be divided into several parts. Also, several times in the debate, I will be alluding to the importance on keeping a matter of perspective, and comprehending the bigger picture. This is because, it seems like your arguments are largely based on feats alone, while neglecting the equally important aspect of hype.



> admirals are among the strongest characters in the OP Verse, being crowned “Ultimate Assault Force” by the WG (Click) and all being more or less on par (in overall combat ability of course). Therefore the sensible definition of admiral level is that to be on that level, *a character has to be virtually on par with known admirals in combat ability and consequently must have a legitimate chance of beating one in a fair one on one fight.* Thus if the feats show evidence that the admirals have better overall combat ability than a certain character and that this character has failed to demonstrate he has any chance of defeating an admiral in 1 vs. 1 fair combat, then this character can not be considered admiral level.



As many predicted before, what constitutes the meaning of Admiral Level in this debate, would come down to a matter of varying definitions between different parties. 

Marco's Showings Against The Admirals:

Fighting on par with someone, or being on the same level as them, does not necessarily always translate or constitute to absolute equality, at least as far as One Piece goes. As my teammates have stated, Sanji is considered to be in the same argument or level as Zoro & Luffy, yet we know that he will never have a legitimate chance at defeating Luffy in a 1 V 1 fight where both are unrestricted, and not hindered by the interference of other externalities. 

However, ignoring the fact that "fighting on par with", and "having a legitimate chance to defeat" are distinctly different, it seems that if we were to examine your quote above, then you may still be partially contradicting yourself in the bolded, if you truly believe that X fighting on par with Y is an appropriate criteria for X to be considered on the same level as Y, yet you advocate against Marco for not meeting the requirements of such a criteria by your standard and definition.  Why is that? Because that is exactly what Marco was capable of: fighting on par with the Admirals. In the war, he fought on par with all 3 Admirals on separate occasions, and was able to take a heavily impacting and direct punch from Garp, another Admiral level fighter, before shrugging it off without too much trouble. Now, if we examine these on their own individual merits(especially due to the short lived nature of these brief skirmishes/clashes/confrontations in MF, and the distractions causing insubstantial conclusions to be drawn), then it would not be as solid an indication.

But, as I said, it is important to keep a matter of perspective and a comprehension of the bigger picture(in more ways than one in this case); what is truly impressive, is not the feats by their own individual merit, but the accumulated sum of these feats together, as well as remembering who Marco is in the world of One Piece, in regards to his hype. Marco was capable of fighting all of them evenly on separate occasions, as one of the prominent fighters from one of two main factions in the war, and that is what's noteworthy, because why would Oda have him do so against all 3, if not to illustrate that he is in the same league as them?  What makes Marco's fighting on par against them, starkly different from say, Vista fighting on par with Mihawk, is that Marco's clashes reflected how Marco would do against the Admirals as a collective(by collective, I do not mean all 3 of them together, but as a collective representative of the level of power they possess), whereas Vista has no feats outside of his clash with Mihawk, and we are able to logically infer that the chasm of difference between Mihawk & Vista, is significantly wider than the gap between Marco & the C3(Colored Trio, whom I will refer to as the C3 for the rest of this debate, to take away some measure of redundancy). 






> Based on Marco's portrayal in the Marineford War and his first commander status many people believe he is admiral level, especially his skirmish with Kizaru but also his encounters with Akainu and Aokiji are used for that interpretation. What we want to show in our argumentation is that those battle scenes and other incidents and circumstances utilized are not nearly enough for a solid basis to claim he is virtually on par with said people. Conversely our analysis will demonstrate that rather the opposite is evident.



And I will attempt to show you just why that status, and everything that encompasses it, is important. 

Hype, Powerscaling, Portrayal:

Other points to be taken into consideration, are the aspects of hype & powerscaling, which is imperative, paramount, and decisive in this debate, for it supports the foundation of a larger frame & bigger picture. Instead of simply, and single-mindedly looking at the feats of Marineford and taking them out of proportion while focusing upon them in their own value alone, we have to keep an open mind and remember Marco's standing and position in the story, and why it supports the impressive nature of those feats. 

Since Marco was introduced, a first impression and image was quickly established from his official introduction alongside Jozu and his intro box. He was the First Division Commander of Whitebeard(reinforced later in Marineford, where he was characterized and depicted as the Right Hand of the World's Strongest Man, and further bolstered by his role during and after the timeskip, as the new leader of the Whitebeard Pirates family hierarchy). The Gorosei have already named Marco's WB Pirates as a pseudo Yonko crew, and Marco's name in the New World is sufficient for the World Powers to see him as a figure close or comparable to the Four Emperors, though of course, the Remnants are a more weakened roster compared to the other Yonko crews, due to missing key pieces since Thatch's murder until the very end of the Paramount War. Due to the Gorosei's knowledge of the world's most important transitions, as well as how well informed they are as the rulers of the World Government, their statements are extremely reliable. This is not to say that Marco is equal to the Yonko, as they are placed on a similar pedestal to Marco's captain, Whitebeard; whom he is first mate to(and first mates are, in most cases, close to, or at the very least, can fight on par with their captains). But, keep in mind that even if there was a convincing gap between WB & Marco as opposed to that which may be found between other Yonko and their first mates, WB was still the strongest Emperor, so a balanced perspective to consider, would be that Marco would still be within that same bracket of the world's strongest, along with Whitebeard, the Yonko, the Admirals, Emperor First Mates, top tier pirates/marines in general; even if he might appear closer to the lower end of such a horizontal or plane, with Whitebeard on the higher end. We have hints that while there might be certain differences in strength between some individuals from such a league, the top tiers are, in general, close in strength and should be able to fight on par with anyone in the same lineup. These hints are: Akainu & Aokiji's 10 day fight, the Emperors & their crews stalemating each other in the New World to the point where they are unable to advance, WB & Shanks' symbolic clash of equality, and the nature of important first mates being close to their captains in strength. So being the first mate to WB, along with this, means that he would never be far apart from the current Yonko, especially when WB himself was stronger than the other Emperors before the timeskip. 

Marco's status, illustrated in the above paragraph, reinforces, lends credibility to, and validates the significance of his feats against the Admirals as a collective. This isn't just some no named mook, nameless soldier, or rookie like Apoo & Luffy attacking an Admiral, but someone considered to be amongst the world's finest. 

This is the bigger picture, and it provides Marco's showings with meaning and substance.


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## Mihawk (Feb 20, 2014)

> These are the best feats Marco has to offer, clearly portraying that Marco has the means to hold off an admiral for a period of time. But do these scenes also suggest that he is virtually on par with them, being able to defeat one? The answer has to be no.
> 
> His kicks against Aokiji and Kizaru are quite impressive, but in the end they did close to no harm.
> 
> ...



I edited the quote to make this a point on its own, as I will address those points(Marco/Vista attacking Akainu, Akainu VS Commanders) later on.


It seems as though it has finally come down to this at last: an argument concerning and revolving around Marco's offence, which our opponents consider lackadaisical.  

This was an aspect our camp/team had already considered. Marco's devil fruit powers & fighting style is unlike the Admirals. Rather than using terrain reforming logia powers to cause widespread damage courtesy of AoE or incapacitating their opponents with one attack if their guard is down, Marco is a brawler who uses flight and speed to give himself mobility and to propel himself against the Admirals, to give him an opportunity to fight them at close range, while  using the defensive nature of his devil fruit like a shield against any devastating attacks they throw at him, and regenerating from damage taken. He is, above all, a hand to hand combatant who uses his devil fruit for flight mobility & defense. Therefore, to conclude that a point against Marco's favour in this argument, is that he was unable to hurt any of the Admirals in one attack(which is what they were: just single attacks), is superficial and simplistic, to say the least. Because to arrive to such a conclusion, you would either be: looking into the distracted outcomes a bit too much, misinterpreting/misunderstanding the method of Marco's fighting style by comparing it to the nature of the Admirals' devil fruit and how they hurt the Commanders when they caught them off guard; or drastically underestimating the Admirals' durability. Yes, the Admirals' offensive capabilities are more lethal and dangerous than Marco's. By the very nature of these attacks, a single punch from Akainu's magma dripping fist, is going to be more consequential and damaging than a single kick from Marco. However, while the C3 are ahead in offence, Marco is superior as far as defensive capabilities go, until proven otherwise.  Even so, this does not, by any means, indicate that Marco is not capable of hurting an Admiral or that is offense is not sufficient to cause them harm or damage. Marco's offense was capable enough to break Kizaru's guard and to push him back from attacking his captain. His offense, Haki mastery relative to someone of his calibre, and physical strength in that encounter is definitely an aspect of why he is able to fight on par with the Admirals. 

A very important and noteworthy aspect to consider too is, the Admirals were unable to hurt Marco cleanly as well. To make the topic boil down to an inability to hurt each other would be too over-simplistic and a bit narrow-minded, as an all out 1 V 1 between Marco and an Admiral would obviously take more time, and more than single attacks to hurt each other. It would be a downplay on both the Admirals & Marco if one expects either party to hurt each other in Marineford like that. 



> One of his most impressive feats, being able to hold off Akainu for at least a short time, pales when we think about the fact that his surprise attack together with commander Vista (both being enraged because of the deadly blow Ace received shortly before) is basically not more than “irritating” the admiral.



Once again, this seems to be a face value interpretation which exhibits too much reliance on a single feat, not to mention a degree of selective reasoning. 

It is ironic that the former scenario in the above quote would be considered to pale to the latter, when Marco successfully blocked Akainu and held him back at even footing, AFTER Akainu took Vista & Marco's attacks, in the chronology of events unfolding in the war.

Of course, you can say that Marco showed his lack of offense in his collaborative effort with Vista, and that the blocking of Akainu showed his defensive capabilities, but to counter this, I will draw an analogy from Jozu, someone considered to be similar in most regards to Marco, be it their defensive prowess, positions as higher echelon Yonko Commanders, similar feats, until they differ in physical strength and speed, respectively. We saw that Jozu, someone whose ability and fighting style is also largely revolved around defense, still possessed the offensive capability to draw blood from an Admiral, as he managed to hurt Aokiji, given the chance. 

If Jozu can hurt an Admiral who grew alert of him, how can Marco, someone who is canonically superior to Jozu, not possess the very basic capability befitting someone of his power, which is hurting or causing damage to an Admiral? Especially when he is backed up by Vista, another higher echelon Yonko Commander.

Also, the atmosphere of the war during the fights in the plaza, and the atmosphere when Ace was dealt a blow from Akainu, were largely different. For the former, the WB Pirates were making an advance of momentum in the war, while in the latter, they had basically lost their reason to fight in the first place. Thus, there would be obvious differences in mindset, meaning that Marco & Vista, under less uncertain circumstances, would be able to hurt Akainu and do more than just irritate him, much like Jozu was able to do so against Aokiji. 

As for the rest of the Marco/Vista attack on Akainu argument, I ask that everyone keep an open mind, instead of looking at that single moment and feat, while judging it on its own context. For starters, it seemed highly likely that Marco & Vista's attack was not bloodlusted, as we saw how they did not act in such a way during that time: they did not possess any traits at that moment, or the moments after(even when Marco blocked Akainu or when they stood up against Akainu), and they did not continue their onslaught or attack after their failure, evident by Vista's words. In fact, their attack seemed like an act of desperation and an attempt to save Jinbe & Luffy, while getting Akainu away from Ace(their highest priority), as quickly as possible after Marco shed his cuffs. It was clear that their mindsets were flustered, and their heads weren't in their proper place. If they were truly bloodlusted, I don't see why they would have stopped after making just one unsuccessful attack. 



> And even after the latter has suffered a severe beat down at the hands of Whitebeard, Marco and the other commanders confronting him still fail to stop the battered admiral from rampaging.



Yet again, selective reasoning, as Akainu had half of Marineford's armies to assist him in the confrontation against the Commanders, including Vice Admirals. Considering how weak the lower Commanders are compared to an Admiral, and how they'd be closer to VAs in strength, it's a lot less one-sided than people think. 



> Also we always have to keep in mind what complete monsters the admirals are in the area of combat. Kizaru received no noticeable injury during the entire war, even though he went 1vs.1 with Whitebeard. In fact he outmaneuvered Whitebeard and put a hole in his chest.



Whitebeard was injured in every conceivable way and had his movements slowed down significantly, in comparison to a practically still fresh Kizaru. Not to mention, if there is anyone of the 3 Admirals most suited to outmaneuvering a tank like Whitebeard, it would be Kizaru. 



> Akainu had enough durability to take an island busting attack to the head and didn't stay down.



Yet there is nothing that indicates that Marco could not have taken a full powered quake from Whitebeard(albeit, he would be severely injured), especially when we take his devil fruit into account, and when he was able to easily take Yasakani No Magatama from Kizaru, and shrug off a full powered blow from Garp, someone considered to be a legend of the same era as Whitebeard, while getting up without too much trouble.


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## Mihawk (Feb 20, 2014)

> and we know Aokiji was a perfect match for that guy in a fight that lasted for 10 days and permanently changed the weather of an island.



Changing the weather + climate, and geographically reshaping an island after 10 days is something relative to the C3's capabilities, due to their logia powers. An aftermath or effect of their duel. 

Therefore, we cannot really use AoE to dispute the capabilities of fighters who may be Admiral Level, outside of the C3 or Whitebeard, because their abilities are tailor made for such effects. People like Garp, Marco, Rayleigh, Sengoku, etc. would still fight on par with the Admirals, despite lacking the natural capability to changing the weather or altering the climate in their wake.

We have only seen Sengoku use nothing but shockwaves, yet we know that he is still considered an Admiral level fighter, and can fight on par with the C3, despite his lack of AoE feats. We also know that Rayleigh has not shown the AoE on panel which say, a swordsman like Mihawk is capable of, but he can still fight on par with the Admirals. The same goes for Garp, a brawler with a feat of physical strength on par with that of Jozu's. The point is that people like Garp, Sengoku, Rayleigh, and Marco, have yet to go all out, but they have still shown some extent of AoE in single moments of combat(with Marco, it's the kick which caused Kizaru's light to explode, showing that he has great physical strength, which can cause a large area of damage), and have the hype to fight on par with the Admirals like the C3. Therefore, just because they cannot alter climates, change the weather, split two islands into two after 10 days, does not mean they immediately lose the edge compared to the C3. Their hype and part in the powerscaling, dictates otherwise.



> To conclude: Based on the stated definition of admiral level, Marco can't be counted as being on that level because his feats and portrayal display that he only has the sufficient means to keep one busy, but not to defeat one in fair 1 vs.1 combat. If he has no chance of beating an admiral, he can not be on their level and has to be below it. How far below is a debate for another time.



Since the closeness of Aokiji & Akainu's fight is how you would define Admiral level, then it seems like this debate would simply devolve into an argument of definition, unfortunately. 

Still, this logic is inconsistent anyways, as you've also stated that "fighting on par with" is enough to satisfy the criteria of your definition, yet fighting on par with someone is totally different from reaching Akainu/Aokiji-esque levels of extremity, and Marco has done just that. There is also no proof that someone like Fujitora or Green Bull, would give Akainu as hard a time as Aokiji can, yet they are still "Admiral Level".


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 20, 2014)

*A reminder to Team No. Your main rebuttal should be aimed at the opening argument of Team Yes. Counter rebuttals will occur during the Rapid Fire Round.  *


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 21, 2014)

*Rapid Fire Round begins now. Teams may engage each other in direct rebuttals. Judges may ask questions or raise any concerns they may have. Reminder to judges, you're not here to debate, only ask questions. *


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## 2Broken (Feb 21, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Have you answered the, Sanji doesn't have a chance to beat Luffy bit or did you not see it there when you read it?



Sorry let me address that. Sanji is part of the Monster trio and thus is M3 level by definition. He doesn't have to have a chance to beat Luffy to be M3 level since M3 level can't exist without Sanji being in it. ( it's not called Luffy level) Now for someone besides Luffy, Zoro and Sanji to be M3 level or above they have to at least have a chance at beating 1 of the M3 in 1 vs. 1 fair combat. The same thing holds for the admirals and admiral level.

I hope I have answered whatever question you might have had, if not just let me know.


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## Dr. White (Feb 21, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> > Changing the weather + climate, and geographically reshaping an island after 10 days is something relative to the C3's capabilities, due to their logia powers. An aftermath or effect of their duel.
> 
> 
> Not at all. You are trying to dumb down the portrayal of that fight. It isn't about them having Logia's, it was more so to demonstrate the power of the admirals. We already seen what two high tiers could do with logias in the ace and blackbeard fight. The whole message behind the akainu and kuzan fight was to show there immense power as admirals. Having an island wide battle for ten days, and changing it's climate for over a year and some change. Had Mihawk and Kizaru fought you surely would expect similar results.
> ...


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## Dr. White (Feb 21, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> > It seems as though it has finally come down to this at last: an argument concerning and revolving around Marco's offence, which our opponents consider lackadaisical.
> 
> 
> -That is a part of it but not the core of the argument. Marco's feats, hype and portrayal just don't favor him being on their level. As stated he needs to tools to have a nigh even chance at beating an admiral in a 1v1 fight none of which he has shown. The ability to fend off for a while (which Rayleigh did) does not put one on their level. The ability to hit/hurt one ( as jozu, and vista did) does not pit you on that level. Hell even ace was able to "fight on par" with aokiji being able to match is ice with his own fire. Yet we al know ace is not near there level.
> ...


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## Slenderman (Feb 21, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Sorry let me address that. Sanji is part of the Monster trio and thus is M3 level by definition. He doesn't have to have a chance to beat Luffy to be M3 level since M3 level can't exist without Sanji being in it. ( it's not called Luffy level) Now for someone besides Luffy, Zoro and Sanji to be M3 level or above they have to at least have a chance at beating 1 of the M3 in 1 vs. 1 fair combat. The same thing holds for the admirals and admiral level.
> 
> I hope I have answered whatever question you might have had, if not just let me know.



Alright then. You have answered my question. I have no more questions. Good luck to everyone.


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## Mihawk (Feb 21, 2014)

Give me a bit of time to write a proper response, Dr. White

Apologies for any delays


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## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> > Also, the atmosphere of the war during the fights in the plaza, and the atmosphere when Ace was dealt a blow from Akainu, were largely different. For the former, the WB Pirates were making an advance of momentum in the war, while in the latter, they had basically lost their reason to fight in the first place. Thus, there would be obvious differences in mindset, meaning that Marco & Vista, under less uncertain circumstances, would be able to hurt Akainu and do more than just irritate him, much like Jozu was able to do so against Aokiji.
> 
> 
> Not really. The WB pirates would have been highly upset by the death of WB and then Ace. Also after they lost both of them saving Luffy was the main motivation for them fighting, which was both wB's and Ace's wish. So it makes no sense that they didn't have the motivation to stop Akainu. Not only this but without BB and Shanks showing up they would have had no escape route and literally would have had to fight for there lives.
> ...


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## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2014)

Sabo said:


> *To end the initial argument, no one's saying he can beat an admiral or even push them extreme-diff. But everything's he shown suggest he's on par with them & could at least give them high-diff. Just because he lacks a lethal & flashy offense with insane AoE doesn't take away from his speed, strength, stamina, godly defense, hype & portrayal or means he gets significantly outclassed by them.* He's in the same league as the admirals more or less & he doesn't have to be dead equal to them. Same as any other yonkou first mates. Sanji is m3 level, is  he not? But there's no way he's ever beating Luffy or even pushing him to his absolute limits.  & granted he may not really carry the same presence as some of the other top fighters & his main attributes lie in defense rather than attack.


This seems to be your problem here. You keep saying that he is on par or in league with them but refuse to acknowledge the meanings. On Par means essentially equal. marco is not equal to them in tier or overall combat ability. Which means he is not on par with them. 

Your sanji usage is not really applicable here because the M3 is a specific crews' 3 strongest fighters, the marines encompasses the best of the marines and therefore the WG as well. There is a legitmate list of reuirements to be admiral level and it isn't arbitrary. Anyone who could otherwise contend with this position based off of feats, portrayal, or hype (none of which marco has right now.) is considered admiral level or higher (like Prime WB)


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## Vengeance (Feb 22, 2014)

> As many predicted before, what constitutes the meaning of Admiral Level in this debate, would come down to a matter of varying definitions between different parties.
> 
> Marco's Showings Against The Admirals:
> 
> ...



First of all let me re-explain our approach to admiral level, there seems to be some sort of    misinterpretation.
We said that to be admiral level, a character has to be more or less on par with the known ones, of course that doesn't necessarily translate to absolute equality. We never argued that.
*Further we argue that in general the range in strength that determines admiral level is the range of strength of the characters confirmed to be on that level, the admirals. We can not simply apply the range of other (constructed) levels like the M3 level and what this brings along to admiral level when we have something better at hand.
M3 is first of all a term that states that Luffy, Zoro and Sanji are the monsters, the strongest members of the SH. If we define it as a level, M3 level, it is the range of strength from Luffy to Sanji that defines M3 level. If a character fits in there somewhere and/or is able to defeat one of them, he can be considered M3 level. Sanji can't beat Luffy (but he is not unable to beat Zoro) because the range of M3 level is too large, based on the members of the Monster Trio.
We apply the same approach of level to admiral level (range of strength of those confirmed to be on that level) but here the range of strength is way smaller since the admirals are (way) closer in strength than the M3. The outcome of a fight between them is not certain, they are able to beat each other. As your Team admits itself Marco can't beat any of them. Thus based on the definition he is not admiral level since he lacks the capability to defeat any of them. Would you call someone who can not possibly win a fight against any of the M3 call M3 level?* [Highlighted since this is an essential part imo]

Moreover we also elaborated that some of Marco's feats are boosted and that he can only seemingly fight on par with admirals (keeping one busy for a period of time but having no chance of defeating one).



> But, as I said, it is important to keep a matter of perspective and a comprehension of the bigger picture(in more ways than one in this case); what is truly impressive, is not the feats by their own individual merit, but the accumulated sum of these feats together, as well as remembering who Marco is in the world of One Piece, in regards to his hype. Marco was capable of fighting all of them evenly on separate occasions, as one of the prominent fighters from one of two main factions in the war, and that is what's noteworthy, because why would Oda have him do so against all 3, if not to illustrate that he is in the same league as them? What makes Marco's fighting on par against them, starkly different from say, Vista fighting on par with Mihawk, is that Marco's clashes reflected how Marco would do against the Admirals as a collective(by collective, I do not mean all 3 of them together, but as a collective representative of the level of power they possess), whereas Vista has no feats outside of his clash with Mihawk, and we are able to logically infer that the chasm of difference between Mihawk & Vista, is significantly wider than the gap between Marco & the C3(Colored Trio, whom I will refer to as the C3 for the rest of this debate, to take away some measure of redundancy).



Yes, Marco battled two (if you inlcude that off-guard kick against Aokiji, then all 3) admirals and has shown he has the means to keep them busy, proving he is
near, not on their level. It all depends on how much we stretch the range of admiral level, and we feel certain to have a good definition that draws a line at hand.



> And I will attempt to show you just why that status, and everything that encompasses it, is important.
> 
> Hype, Powerscaling, Portrayal:
> 
> ...



▪ The Gorosei didn't really compare Marco's strength with the Yonkou, they said he and the other WB pirates are (perhaps) capable of stopping Blackeard and crew. If you are capable of stopping someone, it doesn't automatically mean you are close or comparable in strength with others able to.
▪ Marco is not the first mate, but the first division commander with traits of a first mate. We can not simply apply to Marco what should hold true of official   Yonkou first mates. The distribution of strength in these crews might be different.
 Moreover Marco didn't even have any more official authority than other commanders before Whitebeard's death. 
▪ Are you saying that anyone in the top league (not level) is able to fight on par with others in that league? Marco fighting on par with Shanks for example?
  I don't see any sense in this tbh, Marco would be Yonkou level then.

I will adress the other points later.


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## Shanks (Feb 22, 2014)

*The next three post are in response to Team No’s rebuttal argument from 2Broken (& 1 from Dr. White).*

I can’t help it by continue to notice a large degree of selective reasoning and downplay on Marco's feats due to choices for words and forgetting to mention some key details. Let me break my reponses down to clearly elaborate my point of view.




> You are clearly boosting his feats here:
> ▪ Both Marco and Kizaru are in mid-air, so there's no usable stand for Kizaru to counter the force of Marco's kick. Of course he will be sent flying.
> ▪ Marco actually didn't break though Kizaru's guard as his arm withstood the kick.





Marco hit Kizaru with a no-name casual kick that was blocked & did no damage. So from that one exchange, where neither fighter seemed inferior, you're able to conclude that his offense is not good enough impressive? Can I say Kizaru or Aojiki's haki defense are not good enough to keep them from being sent flying? Or Kizaru's speed is not good to just outright dodge the kick? Or even better, Kizaru never showed the offensive capability to seriously harm or slow-down Marco(no one did)....Sooo I guess since neither can seriously hurt each other....it's a stalemate? The opposing team & everyone else should know, Marco as well as Kizaru, are much more capable than what they showed. Marco's job was to keep Kizaru away from WB...& he succeeded. His portrayal was just as good as Kizaru's in that exchange. Kizaru launched an attack meant for WB, Marco easily intercepted the attack tanking the lazers & the explosion from the contact of the lasers. Marco then mocked Kizaru. Went from the ship to the top of Kizaru's head in seconds(while tanking Kizaru's yata no kagami again) Kizaru put his guard up, they made contact, Kizaru mocked Marco, Marco broke Kizaru's guard & sent him flying....Kizaru, unharmed, then warned the other marines. How is this not equal portrayal?
Marco came out of no where, with an attack, no one saw coming & was able to break through Aokiji's weapon & still have enough force to send him flying.




> ▪ Marco breaking an icesword (of someone offguard) is not an impressive phyiscal feat.
> ▪ Sending someone who isn't paying attention to you and thus doesn't counter the force of the attack at all flying with a kick is neither such a great feat in terms of physical strength.




This is once again selective reasoning and taking Marco's feats out of context. Firstly, the encounter was not just "someone", but a Marine Head Quarter Admiral - Aokiji. This is equivalent to me saying "Akainu stopped the Bisento of 72 old man, which is not very impressive."

Secondly, Marco did not just break an "icesword (of someone offguard)" and did not just "Sending someone who isn't paying attention". As we clearly stated it in the opening post, he broke through his personal weapon & send him flying simultaneously. This is 1 impressive feat, not 2 un-impressive encounters.




> What remains: Marco has the means (haki) to contact the physical body of an admiral and send him flying if the latter doesn't or can't counter (off-guard or mid-air) the force of the attack. Is it an evidence that he is equal to them in physical strength? Not really.



Maybe, maybe not, but bare in mind he basically overpowered them, which means he should be able to do more.

As far as physical strength is concern, can I ask your team to elaborate on what physical strength feats Aokiji and Kizaru have? Akainu was able to stop WB’s Bisento – which is quite impressive. But to counter that I would like to show you this: . Marco intercepted and holding off Akainu after Ace died. This is not just because of his impressive devil fruit, but it also requires extreme physical strength to tank a punch and stay his ground from the strongest admiral who was capable of stopping and physical monster like WB.

Also, part of what you quoted here is not feats of strength, but more so feats of impressive Haki to by past logia body of an Admiral, which kind of doesn't belong as a concluding point for the 4 point you quoted above.





> ▪ Marco indeed has a top level defense which is mostly due to his DF.
> We also know that his regeneration has a limit, but we don't know when it would be reached. Click



We finally can agree on one point that is he have ‘top level defense’, which is a great start. And yes is it due to his devil fruit, but that doesn’t diminish that fact that this is what Marco is capable of.

-	Aokiji was able to freeze 2 giant tsumani “which is mostly due to his DF.” – No?
-	Akainu was able to melt Whitebeard’s face “which is mostly due to his DF.” – No?

Marco’s regen have a limit, but as stated in the opening post, we have no idea the limit to yet. Something to note that his defensive capacities doesn't just rely on his regen, but through his strength, stamina, endurance and speed also, as state more than once our previous posts. Did Marco require his regen to tank Garp’s mountain bursting punch?




> ▪ The main damage Marco took in the war was multiple lasers from Kizaru. It's not that much if you consider the admirals have top level stamina/endurance and are able to attack en masse without a sign of exhaustion.



The magain damage Marco took is not 'multiple lasers from Kizaru', it is 'multiple lasers from Kizaru while being cuff with sea-stone'.

We certainly agree that the Admiral level fighters top level stamina/endurance, but ‘attack en masse’ is a attribute of the color trio and does not constitute or is it a requirement for someone to by on “Admiral Level”. Is Garp, Sengoku and Rayleigh not “Admiral Level”? We have also elaborated more than once about how Marco’s stamina endurance is on par with the Admiral in the opening , rebuttal and also earlier in this post also.



> ▪ As you admit yourself the admirals are on the same level as Marco when it comes to defensive capabilities, which is his greatest strength, but the admirals are monsters in every area of combat and the based of feats they are clearly far above Marco offensively.



I think you’re reading this incorrectly. We agree that Marco is on par with the Admiral in terms of Stamina, Endurance & Strength, but his regeneration defensive capacity is one of the best if not the best in the mange and is definitely above even WhiteBeard. 



> In other words drawing out a battle isn't going to give Marco any chance at victory.



One again we have come back to this argument concerning and revolving around Marco's offense which my team mate have clearly explained and illustrated in the rebuttal argument. This is a very simplicity way of think and definitely not true. Furthermore we have already elaborated on this in more than one occasion about how Marco offensive ability of being a brawler works, but fine, let dig into this from a different perspective. 

Firstly, let’s go back to the Kizaru vs. Marco encounter at the beginning of the war. Your team may assume Marco can't hurt Kizaru (or any other admiral) just because a BLOCKED kick didn't seriously damage him? A kick blocked..... by an admiral, what were guys expecting? for Marco to 1 shot him or break his arm? His offense doesn't work that way. He's a physical brawler who has to wear his opponents down to effect them. You think Luffy was able to faze Lucci with his very first blow? Or even the first few? No! He had to wear Lucci down & fight in combos. Here's a better example, Sengoku a guy who's no doubt admiral level more or less, fighting in his most powerful form, getting a free hit on Teach & his entire crew, yet they literally got up laughing a few seconds later. Is Sengoku lacking offensive capability as well simply because he can't 1-shot or seriously faze powerful opponents with 1 hit? Marco is not as lethal as the admirals who wield some of the most hax fruits in the series. Kizaru's a logia, crashing into the ground is not going to hurt him....& he dispersed immediately after contact with Marco. "Free hit" or not, you seriously underestimate the admirals if think 1 simple kick from Marco, who was just there to stop them (which he did almost every single time) would significantly faze or hurt them right then & there.

My team mate have being stressing about putting things into perspective and looking at things at a bigger picture, so in order to fully under and appreciate these types of short encounter,  let’s look at a few more examples:

1. Mihawk could not hurt Vista with this first encounter: 
2. Whitebeard’s Quake did not hurt Aokiji: 
3. Mihawk did not hurt Crocodile: 
4. Burgess unfazed despite getting hit by Garp’s fist earlier: 
5. Kizaru could not hurt Marco during their first encounter: 
6. Garp could not hurt Marco with the fist: 

These all indicates that a small encounter could not and should not use as an argument to indicate superiority or what will happen in a draw out fight and why it's important to look at things at in a bigger picture by reviewing all feats, hype, powerscaling and portrayal.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shanks (Feb 22, 2014)

> Conclusion:
> So what do we want to express with our rebuttal? As you have seen we dissented some, but not all arguments of the opposing side. So while we do agree that Marco is strong, we also have shown that some feats/portrayal of him are interpreted wrongly or at least generously in his favor.
> But since Team No has admitted that Marco can not beat an admiral in their opening argument, in the end it all still boils down to the definition of what exactly admiral level is and being on par means. [As we have already stated, a synonym of "on par" is equal, so to be (virtually) on par means you are either equal or very close in strength]
> We still firmly hold the opinion that a level of strength and its range are determined by the characters confirmed to be on that level. Just like the range of strength of the Monster Trio defines the Monster Trio level, it is the range of strength of the admirals that defines admiral level. Since the admirals are way closer in strength than the M3, being more or less on par and thus able to give each other one hell of a fight with no certain result, we are convinced to draw the line of admiral level at the capability of being able to defeat one in a fair fight or not. Marco just doesn't have this capability as Team Yes admits itself.





In order to determine whether someone is in par or fairly equal in a fight, it isn?t determined by how many injuries someone gets during the fight or the amount of time someone gets hit at the end. 

During the battle of Zoro vs. Ryuma at Thriller Bark, Zoro didn?t get any injury and at the end he ended it with one hit, but Ryuma was virtually his equal and most would agree that they were on the same level. While Zoro won it with one hit and left completely unharmed, there was time that he was almost got KO?ed by Ryuma.

Where they not on par? Based on how the battle played out, the were virtually equal from beginning to end, except for the final blow, it would very well be considered as very high or extreme difficulties, because it was certainly very very difficulty for Zoro to win that match.

Vergo vs. Law, were they not on par? Law basically 1-shot Vergo, but it did not change the fact Law had to strategically put himself in that position to deliver that final slash by:

? Firstly engage in a physical battle with Vergo to made Vergo believe he is superior
? Delivering a countershock which did not faze Vergo what so ever and
? Finally, tanking a number of hits from Vergo and pretending to be down out and to made Vergo believe his full Haki form can tank Law?s room slash. 

Through that encounter, we can determine intellectually that Law would beat Vergo more time than not and the fight was virtually a high difficulties match and no matter how you look at it, those two were on the same level.

In other words, if for some miracle reason we get to see Marco fighting an Admiral in an all-out brawl to the death for an extended period of time and that Admiral happens to win without sustaining any injuries, it doesn?t mean that it?s not a high or extreme difficulties fight.

This is not to say we agree that Marco can?t hurt an admiral, it?s more about giving an extreme example. Based on feats, hypes and portrayal, we believe that Marco is fully capable of bypass the admirals logia intangibility and are full capable of over powering 2 admiral?s strength by sending them flying on top of other defensive and offensive capabilities which we?ve illustrated previously.

What if Marco?s ship collided with an Admiral?s ship at sea and Marco was able to 1-shot that Admiral into the ocean? What difficulties would that be? All the feats we presented support that Marco is fully capable overpowering an Admiral physically with his feats and controlling the battle as my team have stated in the opening post as rebuttal argument above.

Whether 2 people are on par with each other are determine through the process of how the fight plays out and how the end result is determined, not the end result itself.



> At the end we want to demonstrate our point of view with the simple description of a fight of Marco against any of the admirals (bar the new , basically featless ones):
> ▪ Marco can fight an admiral for a period of time, but he is unable to take one down.
> ▪ It is only a matter of time untill the admiral is able to defeat Marco (limit of his regeneration)
> Is this really being on par / on a level with admirals?



Once again selective reasoning/reading and taking things out of context. Our arguments was never just around the encounters with the C3 alone (though those encounters might be enough), but also looking at a big picture and consider hypes, portrayal and feats against other Admiral level fighter in Garp. 

The 2 points above continues to revolve around Marco's regen, but we have clearly stated that regen is only one of his defensive capability, but also endurance (against Garp, Akainu & Kizaru's sea-stone blows) and speed (against Kizaru & Aokiji).

Going back to the regen debate, we have also clearly stated that, while yes there is a limit we have not being told what that limit is or have their being any hint on that. Will it be 1 day or could it last for 20 days? With such vagueness with this argument, it?s rather silly to based this either debate around this guessing game.

Also ?unable to take one down? is a false and misleading argument especially when all you?re basing this on the encounter with the C3 and miss-understand that regen may only be what?s going on for him, while we?ve proven time and time again the regen is only 1 of his many abilities.

Due to certain inconsistency in those encounters between the C3, it is critically important to look at hypes and portrayal here. 

So the million dollar question is, can Marco damage and Admiral? The answer is very simple. Yes ? by kicking harder or kicking on a weak spot (chin, temple, stomach, etc).



So our conclusion remains the same, as we?re not here to debate whether or not Marco can beat an Admiral more time than not, but everything he?s shown what the arguments we put forward suggest heavily on par with them and are in fact ?Admiral Level?.



So our conclusion remains the same, as we?re not here to debate whether or not Marco can beat an Admiral more time than not, but everything he?s shown what the arguments we put forward suggest heavily on par with them and are in fact ?Admiral Level?.


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## Vengeance (Feb 22, 2014)

Continuation post:



> I edited the quote to make this a point on its own, as I will address those points(Marco/Vista attacking Akainu, Akainu VS Commanders) later on.
> 
> 
> It seems as though it has finally come down to this at last: an argument concerning and revolving around Marco's offence, which our opponents consider lackadaisical.
> ...





> Once again, this seems to be a face value interpretation which exhibits too much reliance on a single feat, not to mention a degree of selective reasoning.
> 
> It is ironic that the former scenario in the above quote would be considered to pale to the latter, when Marco successfully blocked Akainu and held him back at even footing, AFTER Akainu took Vista & Marco's attacks, in the chronology of events unfolding in the war.
> 
> ...



▪ Marco and Vista were unable to do more than irritating Akainu with their jointly, surprising attack after the latter has delivered the deadly blow against Ace.
Despite using his talons (which clearly indicates Marco was absolutely serious besides the other conditions) and having another top commander at his side the attack has close to no effect in the end. 
This was the perfect moment to show what Marco is capable of when striking a serious blow, and it ended quite disappointing. Of course you may invoke the
great durability and DF abilities of the admirals, but that doesn't exactly help in the notion that he is on their level.
▪ Marco didn't break Kizaru's guard since his arm withstood the kick. 
▪ The admirals were unable to hurt Marco because he didn't run out of regeneration. If we sum up all the damage he took in the battles or skirmishes it is not that great. If there is a prolonged, one on one battle against one of them, his regeneration might reach its limit sooner than you think.
Also if you examine the final chapters of the MF war, Marco looks very exhausted. For someone who can regenerate all damage this doesn't look too good either imo.

Second part:
▪ The chronology of the events is irrelevant in this case, we wanted to demonstrate that Marco's combat strength is too one-sided. He can can keep Akainu busy, but that's it more or less.
▪ Jozu was able to draw blood from an admiral (from Akainu's equal to be explicit),  something Marco didn't accomplish even together with Vista against Akainu in a similar situation. How is that a feat in Marco's favor? 
▪ Isn't preventing the admiral who is killing your crew, including Whitebeard himself, from continuing the rampage a good reason to attack with full might when given the chance?

I will adress the other points later.


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

@Sabo I will have to properly respond to your post latter, but I will get to it.

I do however have an important question to put forth to your team, so important I am going to bold it.

*What is your teams exact definition of admiral level? If you want to say Marco is admiral level, he must survive your definition. You guys surely aren't saying Marco is admiral level with no proper definition of what admiral level even is are you? *

If you guys already posted a definition you are working with and I missed it just let me know. And this question is for the whole opposing team so any of you feel free to answer it.


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## Vengeance (Feb 22, 2014)

> Changing the weather + climate, and geographically reshaping an island after 10 days is something relative to the C3's capabilities, due to their logia powers. An aftermath or effect of their duel.
> 
> Therefore, we cannot really use AoE to dispute the capabilities of fighters who may be Admiral Level, outside of the C3 or Whitebeard, because their abilities are tailor made for such effects. People like Garp, Marco, Rayleigh, Sengoku, etc. would still fight on par with the Admirals, despite lacking the natural capability to changing the weather or altering the climate in their wake.
> 
> We have only seen Sengoku use nothing but shockwaves, yet we know that he is still considered an Admiral level fighter, and can fight on par with the C3, despite his lack of AoE feats. We also know that Rayleigh has not shown the AoE on panel which say, a swordsman like Mihawk is capable of, but he can still fight on par with the Admirals. The same goes for Garp, a brawler with a feat of physical strength on par with that of Jozu's. The point is that people like Garp, Sengoku, Rayleigh, and Marco, have yet to go all out, but they have still shown some extent of AoE in single moments of combat(with Marco, it's the kick which caused Kizaru's light to explode, showing that he has great physical strength, which can cause a large area of damage), and have the hype to fight on par with the Admirals like the C3. Therefore, just because they cannot alter climates, change the weather, split two islands into two after 10 days, does not mean they immediately lose the edge compared to the C3. Their hype and part in the powerscaling, dictates otherwise.



Garp, Rayleigh and Sengoku (primes) are actually capable of deating an admiral in fair combat, how they do so doesn't matter as long as they can. Marco can't. 
I don't think it's needed to list their feats and hype to know that they were definitely  not on same level as Marco in their prime.
So mentioning those legends doesn't do Marco any good imo, in fact it rather does the opposite.

Regarding the Marco - Kizaru part: Marco kicked him in mid-air and Kizaru was sent to the ground because he had no stand to counter the force of the kick. Of course Kizaru was in light logia form when he was dashing to the ground, thus causing an explosion. 
So this has also be attributed to the destructive nature of Kizaru's DF.



> Since the closeness of Aokiji & Akainu's fight is how you would define Admiral level, then it seems like this debate would simply devolve into an argument of definition, unfortunately.
> 
> Still, this logic is inconsistent anyways, as you've also stated that "fighting on par with" is enough to satisfy the criteria of your definition, yet fighting on par with someone is totally different from reaching Akainu/Aokiji-esque levels of extremity, and Marco has done just that. There is also no proof that someone like Fujitora or Green Bull, would give Akainu as hard a time as Aokiji can, yet they are still "Admiral Level".



▪ No, being more or less on par with admirals and the capablity to actually defeat an admiral is what  we use to define admiral level, not the closeness of Akainu and Aokiji.
▪ Fujitora and Green Bull are actually not part of the debate because they have no or close to no feats, but since you mention them:
In order to use them to demonstrate that our definition of admiral level is wrong, you would have to prove that they don't have the capability to defeat any member of the C3.


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## Mihawk (Feb 22, 2014)

> Not at all. You are trying to dumb down the portrayal of that fight. It isn't about them having Logia's, it was more so to demonstrate the power of the admirals. We already seen what two high tiers could do with logias in the ace and blackbeard fight. The whole message behind the akainu and kuzan fight was to show there immense power as admirals. Having an island wide battle for ten days, and changing it's climate for over a year and some change. Had Mihawk and Kizaru fought you surely would expect similar results. I agree on the aoe part, but regardless marco has no feats or portrayal putting his offense near the admirals. defending is cool and all but in order to be on someone's level you need a reliable consistent way in which to put them down as well. For example Luffy could of took enel's hits all day thanks to his fruit, but if Luffy wasn't strong enough to harm him even with his advantage then the fight could have lasted a whole lot longer. Even Jozu has a better feat concerning his display making aokiji bleed. Jozu himself has a comparable devil fruit and lack of AOE yet most wouldn't claim he was on the admirals level.
> 
> Second off you keep making strawmen in claiming that we are pointing to their AOE as a sort of qualifier for on their level but that isn't what we were saying. As mentioned you don't need large scale elemntal AOE's to compete but you need something that can actively compete or take down the admirals.



Nope, I'm not dumbing down the feat at all. The island scale aftermath was a result of 10 days of intense fighting between the two of them, and the fact that they lasted for 10 days against each other, while reaping such results,  is very, very impressive. 

However, one would be deceiving oneself if they think it's got nothing to do with their logia powers. There is no one else in the series besides the Admirals who can actually change the climate, temperature, and weather of an island. It's native to their devil fruits. It's the widespread area of effect that makes the feat so impressive. However, what I'm saying is that if Akainu is stronger than Marco(which I would certainly believe that he is), it wouldn't be because of the level of AoE he demonstrated in Punk Hazard, but simply because he is more powerful, and that lacking AoE isn't a detractor for Marco, since we've seen weaker characters than Marco such as Ace & Pre TS Teach demonstrate attacks on a much larger scale than Marco has done so. Obviously, we're not comparing the devil fruit mastery of logias like Ace & Teach, to the Admirals, but this whole argument of AoE is more of an obiter dicta, and things which stand by the way, to demonstrate that Admiral Level AoE isn't an essential for Marco's offense to be effective in combat against the Admirals themselves. 

That's not what a straw man is. Your teams' opening post clearly made a reference to them changing the weather of the island, which I then responded to by saying that the nature of their elemental powers play a huge role. If it was simply about portrayal, and not AoE, then a clarification would have been preferable. However, when people bring in island scale comparisons or the climate changing feat of Punk Hazard, more often than not, the AoE & 10 day stamina aspects are a dominant factor of the subject. The whole point of alluding to how their powers affected the whole island, is to demonstrate how widespread the impact of their powers are. 

As for Jozu, the fact that he managed to make Aokiji bleed while Marco didn't even scratch the Admirals, is totally irrelevant and practically negligible in comparing the two, as simply focusing upon that context would be too obsessive over only feats. Why? Because as previously stated, Marco is canonically superior to Jozu, so to use that feat to imply that Jozu is better offensively against an Admiral (which I'm not accusing you of), is a pointless exercise, since Marco is stronger than Jozu, and while there are aspects where they are comparable, there is also a point to where they differ. 

And no one on our side is even saying Jozu is Admiral level. 



> An example would be donchinjao. He was able to use his physical strength to split an ice continent in half. The aoe was large but it came from one concentrated attack, despite this Garp still handed him his ass. Marco doesn't have any offense feats comparable getting two free hits on admirals only for them to shake it off, and likewise had a double combo with another WB captain on akainu only for him to be rather unaffected.



Well first, the Admirals needed 10 days to reform a gigantic island, whereas DCJ used one attack, so obviously, their powers work differently, and it's hard to chalk up feats as similarly impressive if they differ in context. Although I am aware this isn't the point you are trying to make, and your really referring to Marco's offense, but I'm just making a note. 

Yet Marco also shook off the Admirals' attack(besides the time when he was cuffed by seastone which is self-explanatory), so this argument goes nowhere, except in circles. As I already said before, the collaborative attack with Vista on Akainu is inconsistent with Marco's previous feats in the war, due to many external factors.  You can't just use and extrapolate that one scene totally out of context as an overarching point to point a general picture of Marco's offense. It doesn't work like that, because you'd be neglecting too many other factors during and before the war, for that scene to be considered consistent with Marco's showings. 

But it's good timing that you brought the argument and importance of hype back into this 



> Nothing dictates that Sengoku and garp are currently on the C3's level even they they have more hype and portrayal then Marco. Garp is a VA that clearly has some of the best hype/portrayal in the manga. Rather easily taking care of the cntinent splitting chinjao, fighting and cornering Roger, fighting shiki and his threat to kill akainu, While sengoku was the Fleet admiral (a position now filled by akainu himself), also fought shiki, and was a dominant figure in the war.



So your saying that nothing dictates that they are Admiral level according to your definition, yet you just implied a list of achievements which support that notion greatly? =/ 

Will go into more detail later when we talk about the old guys below

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## Mihawk (Feb 22, 2014)

> It's curious that you bring up Jozu here. Despite having less portrayal and hype then Marco he similarly had a nigh equal performance against the admirals/ top tiers. Being able to stop Mihakws slash, make kuzan bleed, and his iceberg feat. Yet people don't question his power in reference to the admirals now do they? Marco's best hype and portrayal are being mentioned by the gorusei, being WB's right hand man and holding off admirals. While this certainly does him justice it does not make him admiral level.



They do not question it because they already know that Marco is closer to the Admirals & WB than Jozu is. It's not just about feats. Their feats are comparable, and I've even wrote an entire paragraph in the Marco VS Jozu thread before detailing their comparison and where they differ, so your not enlightening me with any revealing facts here.  You've already said it yourself: hype and portrayal. This is what sets Marco apart from the rest of the Commanders of his crew. He fought on par with all 3 Admirals separately in the war, and what is most telling is the fact that the Gorosei singled him out by name, he immediately took over as the new leader of the WB Pirates, and was WB's first and right hand.

 If the Gorosei consider Marco to be one of the strongest individuals on the pirate side, spoken of in the same breath as the Yonko considered on par with his captain(this is not to say that he is equal to people like Shanks or Kaido), and is the right hand of Whitebeard, who is stronger than the Admirals himself, it really isn't hard to consider Marco as fitting within the bracket or spectrum of Admiral Level, especially when top tiers have been portrayed as generally close compared to the rest of the verse(refer to my power scaling paragraph in my previous rebuttal). It is not a specific indicator, but it doesn't need to be, as many characters other than Marco hinted to be Admiral level, do not have any specific indicators or confirmations in their favour for that either.

 Your team's problem is that we have to argue by the definition you guys provided. You assume that being on the same level, means being dead equals. Just because your team posted its own definition of what defines "being on the same level", first, with the opening post, doesn't mean that we have to argue against you guys based on your own standards, since we already had a very different definition since the very start, and your barking up the wrong tree if you assume that we think Marco has to be able to give Akainu the same amount of difficulty in a fight as Aokiji did, to be considered Admiral Level. As many other people in the nomination thread have stated, this topic would likely be about semantics and the definition of Admiral level itself, which goes nowhere, as neither of our teams agree on the same definition. You've also selectively quoted parts of my post, while omitting some of the meat, such as the hype + power scaling aspect, Marco's portrayal of fighting them as a collective, etc. that's fine if you only specifically wanted to target the parts of my post which you have quoted, instead of choosing to rebuttal my post as a whole.



> You are using people who have much better portrayal and hype then Marco. All the elders you named are top tiers from the old generation. Two fo them being confirmed admiral level in the past, and one of them being the zoro to Roger's Luffy. All Rayleigh even did was hold off Kizaru which without kuma may have still failed. He did exactly what Marco did, hold them off. Not enough to place people on the same level. To be on the same level of someone else you have to have good odds at beating them on a consistent basis, and similar stats comparable battlewise against other fighters.



But their hype and portrayal in their primes from the past is not an indicator of the present, so I don't see how that is relevant to their hype being superior to Marco's in the present. If we were comparing Prime Rayleigh to current Marco, then obviously, his superior hype in that regard would be immediately relevant and admissible, but we're examine things presently, and the Rayleigh I was using is the old version. The same goes for Garp & Sengoku. The old, not the monsters in their prime, whose hype is only immediately relevant over two decades ago, and does not automatically translate to their capabilities in the current timeline.

Keeping that in mind, your still saying that someone like Rayleigh is similar to Marco in the way that they both only managed to hold off Kizaru., but that he has much better portrayal and hype than Marco, when I was never using Prime Rayleigh as an example, but the old man.

Furthermore, we disagree with the notion that Rayleigh & Marco were only stalling devices for Kizaru. What actually happened, was that they fought evenly and on par with Kizaru, on panel. Once again, our two teams differ with the definition of what it means, to be on the same level. Having the same rank is different from being dead equal to someone. Just because Fujitora & Green Bull were promoted to the Admiral rank, does not necessarily mean that they are just as strong as Aokiji & Akainu. We believe that Admiral level can encompass anywhere from the weakest Admiral, to the strongest. This could range from the weaker one of the new admirals (I stand to be proven wrong or right, if they are either proven stronger or weaker, respectively, down the road), to the strongest of the C3, Akainu. We believe that if Marco is able to fit within such a spectrum, and can push the weakest Admiral to extreme difficulty while pushing the strongest admiral to high difficulty, then he is comparable to the Admirals in combat abilities. If you are intent on continuing to use Aokiji & Akainu's minuscule gap as the standard of such a level, then we simply differ there. 



> I find it curious you tell us that all those people have been holding back yet refuse to include the admirals themselves in that.



When did I "refuse" to include the Admirals as amongst the parties whom did not go all out in the war? You do know what refusing means, right? 
I never said the Admirals were going all out, and I was focusing on Marco specifically to highlight how we haven't seen his full capabilities yet. I assumed that it was simply common knowledge for all of us from both teams, that every top tier besides Whitebeard & Akainu did not go all out or show us everything they had in their arsenal yet. If I had taken it for granted or had mistakenly believed that we'd all be already able to see that at the very least even before the debate began, which led you to think that I had "refused" the notion, or chosen to omit the fact that Aokiji & Kizaru did not go all out, then I should have clarified, but jumping to conclusions doesn't help either.

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## Mihawk (Feb 22, 2014)

> You claim Marco was holding back yet we have no basis to make this claim. He was literally fighting for Ace's and WB's life. That being pretty much the #1 situation in which he is most likely not to fight his hardest in. The admirals on the other hand were simply defending a prisoner. We know kuzan didn't have his whole heart into it. Kizaru was trolling around yet serious at sometimes, and Akainu only got serious against WB, and after Ace escaped. This is also evidenced by the fact that his performance on PH was much more devistating then his Marinford performance. None of the admirals performed on a scale considerable. Akainu had no trouble battling Marco and vista, yet stopped mid passionate rage for someone like shanks. This is someone who is on par atleast with the admirals. Now despite him having his crew to back him up, akainu literally stopped in his tracks, no follow up attack or anything. this is the man who had a huge chance (being backed up by 2 other in shape admirals, VA's, garp, sengoku, warolords and Pacifista's) to practically whipe out most big name pirates, and just got done fighting WB. Marco just doesn't have the credentials to be put on the admiral level (Mid Top tier).



The Admirals weren't just defending a prisoner. Sengoku had already stated that there was a chance that they'd be the ones to meet their end in this war against Whitebeard and his crew. Top tiers from both sides of the war held back only because of the men around them. There were obviously times when they had to be very serious, such as the later stages of the war, but even then, it does not mean that all of them had utilised their full capacity. You can't selectively choose and pick that which fits your agenda, as that is double standard. Can't really just say that Kizaru was trolling while Marco was serious, when both had a casual attitude in their fight. You can see that Marco was being very playful and snarky during their confrontation. Hardly the traits of someone putting his all into it, while using maximum power. The same applies for Kizaru as well. 

As for Akainu's performance in PH being more devastating than Marineford, that is a given, as smothering half of the island and it's climate with magma and flame was a 10 day process, while Marineford was just barely a day at most…….so overall, his performance should have been relative anyways, especially since he didn't hold back during the latter stages of the war, hence why his feats in Marineford, seemed to be more impressive than the less committed Aokiji & Kizaru.. 




> There is no argument here. On par means relatively equal. The akainu /Kuzan fight goes to show how the admirals are relatively close, and on par with eachother. Marco is simply not on that level given the current evidence.
> 
> No it is not. Fighting on par with someone means for the whole duration of the fight (we meant a focused fight unlike MF which was a clusterfu**) and having a nigh even chance at beating them. What Marco did was intercept 2 admirals, keep them at bay for a while, and fail to stop 1. Nothing suggest in a 1v1 fight that Marco would have the abiity to pushing an admiral to extreme difficulties (hence why we brought up the akainu/Aokiji fight to demonstrate two people on that level clashing and fighting "on Par".
> 
> for example by your viewpoint of "fighting on par", Law was doing such against Kuzan and Doflamingo. Being able to craftily use his fruit to injure dofla, destroy Fujitora's warship, and evade both of their attacks at the same time. We know Law isn't on Dofla/Fujitora's tier.



That isn't my viewpoint, and I'm pretty sure that I'm more aware of what my views are as an authority of myself. In the same vein, I'm not going to jump to conclusions, but I seriously hope that by using this analogy as an assumption of what my definition of "fighting on par" means,  your not trying to suggest that Law's showing there was similar to Marco's. What Law accomplished, was not fighting on par with Doflamingo or Fujitora. He was focusing on evasive tactics. That's not what fighting on par is. Marco never ran away from an Admiral, but faced them in combat. 

Our team's definition of fighting on par with someone, isn't such.

Instead, it is: Smoker VS Law, Sanji VS Vergo, Smoker VS Vergo

1st example: Smoker was able to gain the upper hand in close quarters, and only lost the edge at the end when he was blindsided and taken out by Mes. While not necessarily equal to Law, he was still able to fight on par with him. Outside of the fight itself, Smoker being Luffy's rival and being on the same general combat level as the M3, reinforces his performance. Though this may be a looser example, as Smoker is on the lower end of such a spectrum compared to Law. 

2nd & 3rd example: Sanji & Vergo fought evenly against each other until Vergo gained an edge after cracking his leg, and external circumstances did not permit the continuation of the fight. In terms of portrayal, we saw Vergo's superiority, but Sanji was still able to fight on par with him, and both were comparable. Smoker & Vergo fought evenly against each other, until Smoker chose to prioritise Law's heart. In PH, Smoker, Vergo, and Sanji showed that they were all relatively comparable, and would all be able to fight on par against each other, and even if none of them are dead equal to one another, they are on the same level or ballpark. 

The purpose of these analogies, is to show that people can still fight on par with each other, and be comparable or chalked up to being on a similar level, even if they are not necessarily dead equal to them. Marco has shown that he has been able to fight on par with the C3 and was comparable to them in strength, even if he is not dead equal to them. So in the same vein, if Marco is able to push the C3 to high or very high difficulty, then he has satisfied the minimum standard of such a criteria.


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## Mihawk (Feb 22, 2014)

> they are admiral level because they were picked to fufill that position in which the C3 formely held. It would pointless to fufill 2 seats with people who aren't on par. They have signifigantly less feats, paneltime, and haven't fought anyone of the top tier level for us to even compare. Marco on the other hand has fought the admirals, and had a decent amount of panel time.
> 
> Addin to this it's pointless to bring that up as the main question of this debate was is Marco the pre skip C3 admiral level.



They were drafted in a global enlistment to hold the rank of admirals, to replenish the loss of power in the Marines since the timeskip, so that the balance of powers would not be too out of hand. It is obviously pointless if the C3 are much stronger than them, but it doesn't mean that they would be equal to Akainu either(who has had his pedestal elevated in the plot anyways) or Aokiji for that matter. Their new position doesn't mean that they would be able to give Akainu an extreme difficulty fight, by default.  So far, we know nothing about the new admirals individually. The C3 rose in the ranks together for decades, advancing with similar potential. Just because Fujitora was drafted to become an Admiral for his impressive power, does not give him the benefit of a doubt that Kizaru has, as far as pushing Akainu to an extreme difficulty battle goes. We are simply suggesting that nothing dictates that, every Admiral past or present, can necessarily replicate the closeness they showed. Kizaru would most likely be able to, as he is a member of the original C3. Nothing however, indicates that someone who satisfies the minimum standard of Admiral Level, can still give Akainu extreme difficulty, which is the point.

Marco has demonstrated a comparable degree of equality to Kizaru, of all the Admirals, especially in the area of portrayal. 



> -That is a part of it but not the core of the argument. Marco's feats, hype and portrayal just don't favor him being on their level. As stated he needs to tools to have a nigh even chance at beating an admiral in a 1v1 fight none of which he has shown. The ability to fend off for a while (which Rayleigh did) does not put one on their level. The ability to hit/hurt one ( as jozu, and vista did) does not pit you on that level. Hell even ace was able to "fight on par" with aokiji being able to match is ice with his own fire. Yet we al know ace is not near there level.



Marco has the hype of being the right hand of the World's Strongest Man. Since Whitebeard is superior to the C3, don't see how Marco's position and hype doesn't favour him in the least, in being around the same level. Again, refer to my powerscaling argument, which you guys have chosen to ignore. 

What? I wasn't arguing that the simple ability to inflict damage on an Admiral is sufficient for one to be Admiral level. That wasn't the point or meaning of the post. I was arguing against the implications of Marco's inability to hurt the Admirals. 

Ace simply canceled out one projectile attack, and his feats and hype outside of that put him at high tier. Can't really just use that example since you'd have to focus on that feat alone, instead of the bigger picture inclusive of Ace's other showings. What distinguishes Marco from that, is his position, rank, and the fact that he didn't just have one exchange with one Admiral, but them as a collective on several occasions, as far as portrayal goes. 



> Marco's offense is extremely lackluster so far, being able to use only physical attacks, and partial zoan form strikes. It isn't like we didn't get a measure either in 3 strikes against the admiral he did virtually nothing but rustle their jimmies a bit. Like with the Luffy example, his fruit allowed him to compare to Enel (someone who wiped the floor with zoro someone pretty even to him.) and fend off Enels attacks. Yet had he not the physical strength, reactions/speed, stamina, etc to fight with him 1v1 he wouldn't have one.



I don't understand how anyone can simply relegate or dumb down the WSM's right hand as being nothing more than a nuisance who only goes as far as rustling the Admirals' jimmies. 

Marco is incomparable to Luffy's showing against Enel, since Luffy's powers helped him specifically against Enel, while Marco's defense and regeneration would be present in every fight. 

Also, Enel was unable to react to Luffy at times, and Luffy was the physically stronger fighter, though without that devil fruit matchup advantage, yes, Luffy would have been fried. 

Marco possesses the physical strength, endurance, and speed to fight with the Admirals 1 V 1. 



> It's isn't about how you fight it's about its effectiveness against your opponents. Marco's offense isn't all that effective. As mentioned his 3 hits (all being interception feats.) did virtually nothing but piss them off. Until he shows something more than it is hard to justifiably pit him on their level. Or else why wouldn't Jozu be admiral level despite harming, sparring, and taking top tier attacks? Jozu's fruit is perfect for defense, and he seems to use hand to hand combat as well, yet could you see with what he has shown him fighting an admiral for 10 days and defeating them with his current offense? I don't, and I see the same case with Marco.



The point of bringing up his fighting style, is that being a brawler, he's not going to be able to cause a lot of lasting damage to the Admirals with just one attack, so its unfair to chalk it up to that, especially when the Admirals weren't able gain an edge on Marco cleanly either. A one on one fight is one where they'd keep attacking each other, instead of attacking one time, every time. 

Jozu didn't confront all the Admirals, individually. He only fought against Kuzan.




> I am objectively taking into account factors that effect how I view a fight and add characters to a tier list. MArco having 3 chances to harm the admirals could not even dent them (as I said Jozu had a much better feat vs Kuzan) while in retrospect marco was very hurt from  (as you can see the beams destroyed his eye, and pierced him) yet his fruit allowed him to remain unharmed after regenration


.

No your not, because your simply using the fact that Marco didn't cause any lasting damage to the Admirals from single attacks, as the end all indicator of why he can't fight on par with them. If you already acknowledged that Marineford was a clusterfuck, then how can you extrapolate single scenes and use them to say that Marco is lacking in the offense required to fight evenly against an Admiral, especially when you have already acknowledged the inconsistencies? 

As I said before, Jozu bleeding Aokiji isn't a feat that is better than what Marco is capable of. In fact, it reflects that what Jozu would be able to do, Marco would be able to do better. How can it be sensible to think that Jozu would be more effective against an Admiral than Marco, when one looks at the bigger picture, and not just individual feats?


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## Mihawk (Feb 22, 2014)

> -Nothing suggest Marco even with his superior defensive feats could stand up to the admirals. Yeah he took Yagasaki no mi but that was one hit he had to take, over a 10 day course I don't see his fruit holding up that long especially with haki considered.



Nothing? I believe that you are exaggerating now. He took a powerful punch from Garp without much trouble, and wasn't even fazed by Yasakani No Magatama, which was a constant barrage of lasers from Kizaru, just as how he didn't really hurt the Admirals. It just doesn't happen that way for either side in the war, in single moments. It's going to take more from either party to make the other budge.  

As for the second sentence, I'm pretty positive that Kizaru wouldn't be spamming that for 10 days straight. 
Also, Marco wouldn't be restricted to just taking attacks for days upon days either. His flight mobility and speed gives him the option of dodging and evading such attacks. 



> Marco has shown that he can tag the admirals with his haki mastery. This is inconsequential as the peak of his offense (slashing with talons/kicking) has been shown to do nothing to the admirals. over a prolonged 1v1 fight he would have to take ridiculous amounts of offense, and have to pressure them back something his offense doesn't allow for throwing the fight in the admirals favor.



If his offense is so ineffective against the Admirals, and it is unable to pressure them at all, then why was he able to push Kizaru back and deviate his plans? Surely, his equal exchange with Kizaru at that point, and his own capabilities as a fighter had something to do with it. His offense being ineffective or incapable is a myth. As for the other part, Marco has shown that he can take the Admirals' attacks and offense, just as how they can take his. 




> -aokiji didn't even really wanna kill Luffy. Marco did a good feat in rescuing him. But aokiji never really went at marco. As mentioned Kizaru;s first attack did damage marco just regenrated via his fruit. akainu straight up bitched him, and didn't see him as a viable threat. Like I said it isn't like they had a concentrated 1v1 fight.r



Aokiji didn't personally want to, true, as he said he had no choice. But that also meant that he was about to, whether he wanted to or not. The point was that Marco was able to break his weapon while sending him flying to a wall, effectively stopping Aokiji, when Aokiji let his guard down. 
In other words, the damage was basically irrelevant, since it didn't last, so Kizaru couldn't hurt him or bypass his regen at the time
"Straight up bitched him"? When did this happen. I remember no such incident; refresh my memory please

Exactly, which is why you can't say that Marco's single attacks are a tell tale sign for why his offense doesn't allow him to fight on par with them



> You are just adding to our point. both tango'd with admirals, and both could strike them, but neither are are on their level which is why Jozu isn't even in this topic.



No, you are in fact, missing my point. The point was that while Marco didn't hurt the Admirals and Jozu managed to, yet in every aspect of portrayal, pedestal, position, and hype in the grander scheme of the story, Marco is superior to Jozu, so how can it be rational to think that Marco's offense is inefficient against the Admirals, when Jozu's was? 



> What exactly did Jozu accomplish with such a hit? giving Aokiji a bloody lip? How does that offense befit him being on their level and having enough of it to actually put down an admiral? Which is what someone would need to beon par with them?



My point wasn't that bleeding Aokiji automatically puts someone as Admiral level. My point was it showed that Jozu's offense was capable of hurting an Admiral, much like Marco would be able to. This example was given to counter the notion that Marco/Vista attacking Akainu and not being able to wound him. As for the latter two sentences, once again, our camp believes that being an Admiral level fighter can be broader than just being dead equal like Akainu/Aokiji. That being on par with someone is not the same as being absolutely equal in every stat and sense of the word. That if Marco was an Admiral alongside those 3, he can be the weakest out of the 4, and still be relatively on par, and be on the same level., instead of being on an entire league below them, which definitely does not seem to be the case at all, and is what we are arguing against. 




> Not really. The WB pirates would have been highly upset by the death of WB and then Ace. Also after they lost both of them saving Luffy was the main motivation for them fighting, which was both wB's and Ace's wish. So it makes no sense that they didn't have the motivation to stop Akainu. Not only this but without BB and Shanks showing up they would have had no escape route and literally would have had to fight for there lives.



Exactly, they would have been highly upset, and their morale had drastically taken a slump, and had fallen. As much as people like to get into tiers, mindset is actually an important factor in this manga, on many occasions. When they had a purpose of saving Ace, and had Whitebeard leading them, they still had a clear sense of direction for the battle. Before Whitebeard died, his orders were clear cut: that they were to retreat and return to the New World alive. This meant that they no longer had a fighting chance, and it was time to pull back. Defeating the enemy was already out of the question. The Whitebeard Pirates were largely demoralised and demotivated by the time the last act of the war unfolded. 



> The portrayal was clear cut. They were trying to thwart Akainu from rampaging. It was clear by both of them slashing him and it doing little to no damage, that there was a gap in their combat ability. As opposed to someone like shanks (who is about equal to akainu via hype, and portrayal) who simply blocked a heat fist from Akainu and stopped him in his tracks.



The portrayal is only clear cut if you consider all the factors, instead of just scratching the surface with face value interpretation, by focusing only on the result, and not the reason.  The gap in power wasn't the only reason, and thinking so would be simplistic. 

I used Jozu as an example to counter this, because I'm asking how Marco/Vista attacking Akainu should be considered consistent with Marco's individual portrayal, if Jozu was able to bleed Aokiji, yet Marco & Vista together were not able to hurt Akainu, who is Aokiji's equal. And I am suggesting(not that I was the one who came up with this argument originally) that Marco & Vista's mindset by that time, and their sullied willpower, had already affected their output of haki, causing their inefficiency in bypassing Akainu's CoA defences and intangibility. This is one of the possible explanations and factors, which makes the most sense so that the scene would not be inconsistent with the rest of Marineford.


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## Mihawk (Feb 22, 2014)

> they both hit him with concentrated attacks to try and save Luffy in which they did no damage. They had all the reason to try their best. Could you imagine Akainu and Kuzan doubling up on Marco? They would have demolished him



If they were seriously bloodlusted and had the resolve to stop Akainu at all costs, why would they simply attack him once and then say that they failed, instead of continuing the onslaught? Vista even said it was shameful, and with reference and credit to RG, those are hardly the words of someone in a bloodlusted mindset. It was obvious that Marco & Vista were more desperate and worried than angry, as their brother and top priority in the war, Ace, was just dealt a fatal injury and on the verge of death. That concern is enough to throw anyone off their mechanics, especially when the Commanders have shown that they are mentally vulnerable to seeing their comrades fall. If haki is willpower manifested, then they had lost it during that moment. 

Also, Akainu and Kuzan are obviously a stronger overall duo than Marco & Vista. 




> That doesn't really mean much. People on the admiral tier are essentially >>> all of them. If Marco was admiral level, and had the back up of Vista a high high tier comparable to one of the best VA's, with all the pirates backing them up they should have been good. If Marco was rampaging and Akainu had a VA with him, Im pretty sure no low-mid tier pirate is going to do much to him let alone if he had a bunch of low mid tiers himself and a VA next to him.



It means a whole lot actually. It means that Akainu wasn't single-handedly taking on the entire WB remnants by his lonesome self the whole time, and that since the lower Commanders are non-factors to the Admirals individually, and that the VAs + lower commanders balance each other out(not evenly, but to some extent), it basically just boils down to Akainu VS Marco + Vista again….and Crocodile, but we know he's a non factor combat wise there. 





> 1. Marco and Vista were unable to do more than irritating Akainu with their jointly, surprising attack after the latter has delivered the deadly blow against Ace.
> Despite using his talons (which clearly indicates Marco was absolutely serious besides the other conditions) and having another top commander at his side the attack has close to no effect in the end.
> This was the perfect moment to show what Marco is capable of when striking a serious blow, and it ended quite disappointing. Of course you may invoke the
> great durability and DF abilities of the admirals, but that doesn't exactly help in the notion that he is on their level.
> ...


I will adress the other points later.[/QUOTE]

numbered the parts to make life easier

1. You just basically posted my response. The deadly blow to Ace is a factor which affected their mindset, rendering them less competent in the situation. Marco's haki was previously able to make contact with the Admirals' actual bodies and bypassed their intangibility. Yet, Marco + Vista together could not bypass Akainu's at the time, despite getting a free hit. Not only did they act out of desperation, but Ace's mortal wound had obviously flustered their willpower, which is a key intangible component for efficient haki.  How can you extrapolate that scene so out of proportion and use it as the end all argument against Marco, when it flies in the face of, and contradicts so many other showings in the war? It was obvious that it was an outlier, and that simply looking at it through a surfaced value presentation, makes no sense. 

2. By breaking his guard, I meant that Marco was able to still send Kizaru a distance back from his original target, and bypassed his intangibility. 


3. This is speculative, as you do not even know what his regen limit is, to say that "it might reach its limit sooner than you think". You may as well say that Marco's enemies can't hurt him because "he didn't run out of regeneration" every time he fights against some. Come on, it's a part of his powers and his defense. It's going to be present in every one of his battles, regardless of whether this opponents are Admirals or not. Marco's exhaustion was fatigue, and also being mentally drained has an enormous role in that exhaustion you referred to, if you remember how badly defeated the Whitebeard crew was in the war, and the losses they suffered. 


4. It wasn't one sided at all. Marco blocked Akainu's attack and clashed with him at even footing. It was only in the anime where he was sent flying back, which was filler. Not once in the actual manga, did Marco lose an edge to any of the Admirals, cleanly. Top tiers are usually well proportioned in stats and combat abilities, so I don't see how Marco is at all one-sided combat wise, when he excels greatly at not just defense, but speed and mobility, haki mastery, and physical strength.


5. That's because your reading it backwards. That further proves that Marco & Vista's attack on Akainu was inconsistent and was an outlier compared to the other scenes, as how is it logically consistent that if Jozu is able to factually make Aokiji bleed, how are Marco & Vista unable to hurt his equal, Akainu? The answer would have to lie in explanations outside of just linear power scaling, which I've already suggested above. To simply look at the skirmishes and clusterfuck that is Marineford, as dictating factors to comparing their strengths, or specifically, to look at Marco/Vista's collaborative attack on Akainu as being against Marco's favour, yet still be consistent with Jozu drawing blood from Akainu's equal, one would either have to: assume that Jozu is more offensively efficient than not just Marco, but Marco & Vista combined, or to assume that Akainu's defensive capabilities are leaps and bounds above Aokiji's. This is why that scene is reliable, and we have to look at other possible explanations outside tierism and linear power scaling to arrive to and determine a reasonable conclusion. 



6. If your referring to the beginning of the war where he fought Kizaru, then the question would also be, isn't trying to kill the WSM a good reason to attack with full might? By Kizaru & Marco's playful nature in that clash, it was reasonable to assume that both were quite casual and were not utilising the full scope of their abilities yet. If you are referring to Akainu's rampage, then I wouldn't say that Marco was holding back, or that he wasn't serious. However, it has less to do with him not having a reason to attack substantially, and more to do with him not being in the appropriate condition(mental fatigue at loss, diminished willpower, haki inefficiency at the time, etc.) to do so. It would do wonders for the discussion if we were not to assume that every train of logic that follows is simply based on the foundation of strength alone at every turn and showing, but to think outside of the box, and to acknowledge that the actual circumstances of the story, actually played a role in their performances too.


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

@Doflamingo I can't wall of text right now, but I will say this.
Unfortunately in this thread what admiral level is was not defined for us, so we have to work with the definitions we  choose. The definition my team chose is reasonable and I feel very accurate ( How can you be on the same level as a group of fighters if you have no chance of defeat any of them?).

You obviously disagree with our definition so you must be working with a different one. So for clarification on what that definition is *could you please post in a non wall of text fashion what makes someone admiral level and not admiral level by your definition?*


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## Vengeance (Feb 22, 2014)

Damn, I am just done with my rebuttal and Luke has already published another novel lol.
I think it's time for both sides to just post a summary with the main arguments as this is getting out of hand with the walls imo.
In the end it is more or less just a question of which definition of admiral level is more suitable.


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> Damn, I am just done with my rebuttal and Luke has already published another novel lol.
> I think it's time for both sides to just post a summary with the main arguments as this is getting out of hand with the walls imo.
> In the end it is more or less just a question of which defintion of admiral level is more suitable.



What is their definition? Did they post one and I missed it?


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## Bitty (Feb 22, 2014)

> Conclusion:
> So what do we want to express with our rebuttal? As you have seen we dissented some, but not all arguments of the opposing side. So while we do agree that Marco is strong, we also have shown that some feats/portrayal of him are interpreted wrongly or at least generously in his favor.
> But since Team No has admitted that Marco can not beat an admiral in their opening argument, in the end it all still boils down to the definition of what exactly admiral level is and being on par means. [As we have already stated, a synonym of "on par" is equal, so to be (virtually) on par means you are either equal or very close in strength]
> We still firmly hold the opinion that a level of strength and its range are determined by the characters confirmed to be on that level. Just like the range of strength of the Monster Trio defines the Monster Trio level, it is the range of strength of the admirals that defines admiral level. Since the admirals are way closer in strength than the M3, being more or less on par and thus able to give each other one hell of a fight with no certain result, we are convinced to draw the line of admiral level at the capability of being able to defeat one in a fair fight or not. Marco just doesn't have this capability as Team Yes admits itself.
> ...


 When we say Marco is admiral level. We mean he's in the same league as them & give push them in a prolonged fight. He has the physical strength/haki, speed/reaction, & more than enough defense, endurance, & stamina to do so. You don't have to be dead equal to someone or able to defeat to be on their level or in the same league as them. If the portrayal/skill sets are close enough you're going to have a great game or it's going to be close enough wether there's already a clear cut victor or not. You guys are convinced of a flawed logic unless you think all top fighters in the world are equal, must all be able to beat each other, & almost every strength gap is the same. Basically you're telling us, if Big Mom lost to Shanks every time, had no chance of beating him, but still could push him high or extreme diff in a hard fight...she's not on the same on level as him simple because she can't beat him? of if Fuji can't beat Akainu, he's not admiral level even though he has the official rank?

 If Marco wasn't in the same league or tier as the admirals he wouldn't have been the right hand man of Whitebeard & has been with since Roger's Era. He wouldn't have been compared to the other yonkou even without a captain & a severely severely damaged & emotional distraught crew. & he damn sure wouldn't have been able to clashing with all 3 admirals & never shown inferior except against the most strongly portrayed & highlighted admiral who's a potential FV candidate. Oda wouldn't put a guy who's not on their level & give him the kind of portrayal he had against Kizaru.


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> His portrayal was just as good as Kizaru's in that exchange.  Kizaru launched an attack meant for WB, Marco easily intercepted the attack in seconds, tanking the lasers & the explosion from the contact of the lasers. Marco then mocked Kizaru. Went from the ship to the top of Kizaru's head in seconds(while tanking Kizaru's yata no kagami again) Kizaru put his guard up,  they made contact, Kizaru then mocked Marco, Marco broke Kizaru's guard & sent him flying....Kizaru, unharmed,  then warned the other marines. How is this not equal portrayal?


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## Bitty (Feb 22, 2014)

sorry for the late response, fell asleep & didn't expect this much to happen.

damn, Luke. lol


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

Bitty my man, mind doing the following for me?



2Broken said:


> *could you please post in a non wall of text fashion what makes someone admiral level and not admiral level by your definition?*



If the opposing team cannot give me their definition of what admiral level is it likely they don't have one and if they can't say what makes someone admiral level or not, how can they say Marco is admiral level?


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## Bitty (Feb 22, 2014)

read my last my paragraph & we'll elaborate more on it the final summary.

have any of the judges been keeping up with the match? lol besides Unclear Justice?


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## Vengeance (Feb 22, 2014)

Let me ask a simple question:
Where do you draw the line of where the range of admiral level begins and what exactly do you base this on?

*And once again:
We never said the people on a level must be all equals, please stop distorting our definition.*

@Bitty
Also, if Big Mom can not possibly defeat Shanks, that would only put here below Shanks' level, not the Yonkou level.
(Unless the others are either exact equals or even stronger than Shanks)


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## Bitty (Feb 22, 2014)

We simply believe, Marco enough feats, hype, & portrayal to put him in the same league or tier bracket as the admirals, give them hard fight or any top tier for that matter......generally on their level whether he loses in a fight with them or not.

You guys seem believe to be admiral level, you have to be dead equal with them like all the colored trio are to each other(even though that's not 100% true) or must be able to defeat them. Which is an extremely flawed logic imo. 

I guess it's up to judges to decided which term is more convincing. oh & there's 6 judges.


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

Bitty your last paragraph was the following



Bitty said:


> If Marco wasn't in the same league or tier as the admirals he wouldn't have been the right hand man of Whitebeard & has been with since Roger's Era. He wouldn't have been compared to the other yonkou even without a captain & a severely severely damaged & emotional distraught crew. & he damn sure wouldn't have been able to clashing with all 3 admirals & never shown inferior except against the most strongly portrayed & highlighted admiral who's a potential FV candidate. Oda wouldn't put a guy who's not on their level & give him the kind of portrayal he had against Kizaru.



So basically for a character to be admiral level in combat ability they need to be a Yonko's first mate and survive battling the admirals? Do you see how that doesn't work as a even decent definition of what makes character admiral level? How would that apply to a random powerful character? You should really elaborate asap as it is key to your argument.

*I now make the argument that the opposing team doesn't even have a collective idea of what being admiral level entails and therefore can in no way show Marco is admiral level.*


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## Bitty (Feb 22, 2014)

> we are convinced to draw the line of admiral level at the capability of being able to defeat one in a fair fight or not.


that's what your team said.


> @Bitty
> Also, if Big Mom can not possible defeat Shanks, that would only put here below Shanks' level, not the Yonkou level.
> (Unless the others are either exact equals or even stronger than Shanks)


so, if Marco can not possibly defeat Kuzan, that would only put below Kuzan level, not admiral level?


2Broken said:


> Bitty your last paragraph was the following
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I meant this, *When we say Marco is admiral level. We mean he's in the same league as them & give push them in a prolonged fight. He has the physical strength/haki, speed/reaction, & more than enough defense, endurance, & stamina to do so. You don't have to be dead equal to someone or able to defeat to be on their level or in the same league as them. If the portrayal/skill sets are close enough you're going to have a great game or it's going to be close enough wether there's already a clear cut victor or not. You guys are convinced of a flawed logic unless you think all top fighters in the world are equal, must all be able to beat each other, & almost every strength gap is the same. Basically you're telling us, if Big Mom lost to Shanks every time, had no chance of beating him, but still could push him high or extreme diff in a hard fight...she's not on the same on level as him simple because she can't beat him? of if Fuji can't beat Akainu, he's not admiral level even though he has the official rank?* yes, im aware Fuji is near featless, but im sure no one would argue against the notion of crazy it would for a newly recruited admiral to have the ability to defeat the most strongly portrayed & highlighted admiral, who defeated a fellow admiral & is a FV candidate  

but oh well, I'll bite. Marco didn't just survive a clash with an admiral, he had the edge in portrayal. He showed speed/reaction, defense, & physical strength to match an admiral in combat. No, not just the fact he's a yonkou first mate makes him admiral level or "just surviving". But it helps his case to be the right hand man & first division commander of a guy like WB for dozens & dozens of years, to suggest he's a top level fighter along with his other great portrayal like admirals clashes & the Goro statement. This is a great set of credentials & enough to suggest he's top level fighter imo. The portrayal is there. 

While the only thing you guys deny combat wise, is his offensive capability compared to the admirals. or push the fact he can't beat one is the reason he's not on their level. 

I'll elaborate more in the closing summary.


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## Vengeance (Feb 22, 2014)

*Capability to defeat one means one of the people confirmed on that level, in this case Kizaru, Aokiji or Akainu.*
(You might also add Garp or Sengoku for example)
*Marco can not possibly defeat any if them, so he is not admiral level.*
There is also a longer explanation from me given on the first page bottom, though in response to the M3 comparison:



> *Further we argue that in general the range in strength that determines admiral level is the range of strength of the characters confirmed to be on that level, the admirals. We can not simply apply the range of other (constructed) levels like the M3 level and what this brings along to admiral level when we have something better at hand.
> M3 is first of all a term that states that Luffy, Zoro and Sanji are the monsters, the strongest members of the SH. If we define it as a level, M3 level, it is the range of strength from Luffy to Sanji that defines M3 level. If a character fits in there somewhere and/or is able to defeat one of them, he can be considered M3 level. Sanji can't beat Luffy (but he is not unable to beat Zoro) because the range of M3 level is too large, based on the members of the Monster Trio.
> We apply the same approach of level to admiral level (range of strength of those confirmed to be on that level) but here the range of strength is way smaller since the admirals are (way) closer in strength than the M3. The outcome of a fight between them is not certain, they are able to beat each other. As your Team admits itself Marco can't beat any of them. Thus based on the definition he is not admiral level since he lacks the capability to defeat any of them. Would you call someone who can not possibly win a fight against any of the M3 call M3 level?*


*

I guess our notion was at least partly misinterpreted, it doesn't say if there is one confirmed admiral level character you can't beat then you are not admiral level, it says if you can't beat any of them then you aren't ("no capability to defeat one")*


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## Bitty (Feb 22, 2014)

but not every character is Kizaru, Aokiji, & Akainu. There are not the only top fighters in the world. Unless you think they're the only 3 characters admiral level.
& what feats, hype, portrayal does Kizaru have to suggest he can beat Akainu? What feats, hype, or portrayal does Sengoku has to suggest he could have beat Garp who fought Roger to death? What suggest Mihawk & Old Rayleigh can clearly beat the admirals? None, but there's enough to suggest they're all on the same generally level & are top fighters. Same with Marco in our opinion. Basically you're saying if you can't beat one of them, you're not admiral level or a top level fighter in their bracket, even if there's a possibility you can push them very high-diff or even extreme. What?!

like I said, unless you think all top fighters in the world are equal, must all be able to beat each other, & almost every strength gap is the same..how does that logic work.


> Marco can not possibly defeat any if them, so he is not admiral level.


if Marco can not defeat Kizaru, but can still push him hard in a prolonged fight, then he's still admiral level, he's just not Kizaru level. That's what you said.


> Also, if Big Mom can not possibly defeat Shanks, that would only put here below Shanks' level, not the Yonkou level.


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

Bitty said:


> so, if Marco can not possibly defeat Kuzan, that would only put below Kuzan level, not admiral level?



Correct, because Kuzan doesn't represent all the admirals. Now if Marco can't possibly beat Kuzan and Akainu he is now below their level and if he can't possibly beat any of the admirals he is below admiral level. Do you see what we mean?




Bitty said:


> I meant this, *When we say Marco is admiral level. We mean he's in the same league as them & give push them in a prolonged fight. He has the physical strength/haki, speed/reaction, & more than enough defense, endurance, & stamina to do so. You don't have to be dead equal to someone or able to defeat to be on their level or in the same league as them. If the portrayal/skill sets are close enough you're going to have a great game or it's going to be close enough wether there's already a clear cut victor or not. You guys are convinced of a flawed logic unless you think all top fighters in the world are equal, must all be able to beat each other, & almost every strength gap is the same. Basically you're telling us, if Big Mom lost to Shanks every time, had no chance of beating him, but still could push him high or extreme diff in a hard fight...she's not on the same on level as him simple because she can't beat him? of if Fuji can't beat Akainu, he's not admiral level even though he has the official rank?* yes, im aware Fuji is near featless, but im sure no one would argue against the notion of crazy it would for a newly recruited admiral to have the ability to defeat the most strongly portrayed & highlighted admiral, who defeated a fellow admiral & is a FV candidate



Marco has never pushed an admiral in combat and has never had a prolonged fight with one. (fights in one piece can last over a week) We have never stated that Marco has to be dead equal to the admirals, we just said he has to have a chance at victory and he doesn't. If you watch a game/fight and you can say 100% who is going to win at the beginning than the sides are not on the same level. Big Mom is Yonko level by definition, as the level comes from the strength of the Yonko and she is a Yonko. All admirals are admiral level and Luffy, Zoro and Sanji are M3 level by definition. To be in their level you have to have a chance at beating one of them.



Bitty said:


> but oh well, I'll bite. Marco didn't just survive a clash with an admiral, he had the edge in portrayal. He showed speed/reaction, defense, & physical strength to match an admiral in combat. No, not just the fact he's a yonkou first mate makes him admiral level or "just surviving". But it helps his case to be the right hand man & first division commander of a guy like WB for dozens & dozens of years, to suggest he's a top level fighter along with his other great portrayal like admirals clashes & the Goro statement. This is a great set of credentials & enough to suggest he's top level fighter imo. The portrayal is there.



I'm not saying he doesn't have good portrayal, but just having hype doesn't automatically make him as strong as admirals. (Who arguably have even better hype) You need a definition that separates admiral level from not admiral level that you can use for any character, but you seem to be unable to do that.



Bitty said:


> While the only thing you guys deny combat wise, is his offensive capability compared to the admirals. or push the fact he can't beat one is the reason he's not on their level.



He hasn't shown to be the par with the admirals in any thing but defense and yes we believe that if he can't possible beat an admiral he isn't admiral level. That is our definition of admiral level, I would say our definition makes more sense than your teams, but your team doesn't have one.



Bitty said:


> I'll elaborate more in the closing summary.



That's fine I think I made my point.


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## Vengeance (Feb 22, 2014)

Bitty said:


> but not every character is Kizaru, Aokiji, & Akainu. There are not the only top fighters in the world. Unless you think they're the only 3 characters admiral level.
> & what feats, hype, portrayal does Kizaru have to suggest he can beat Akainu? What feats, hype, or portrayal does Sengoku has to suggest he could have beat Garp who fought Roger to death? What suggest Mihawk & Old Rayleigh can clearly beat the admirals? None, but there's enough to suggest they're all on the same generally level & are top fighters. Same with Marco in our opinion. Basically you're saying if you can't beat one of them, you're not admiral level or a top level fighter in their bracket, even if there's a possibility you can push them very high-diff or even extreme. What?!
> 
> like I said, unless you think all top fighters in the world are equal, must all be able to beat each other, & almost every strength gap is the same..how does that logic work.
> ...




Sorry, but it is kinda frustrating now to repeat it all the time:

Everyone who is able to defeat one of the confirmed admiral level people (preferably admirals^^) is admiral level (or even above)
If Marco can not  beat Kizaru, he is below Kizaru's level. 
If Marco can beat neither him nor any other admiral, he is not admiral level.
If Big Mom can not defeat Shanks it will put her below Shanks' level.
If she can't beat any of the Yonkou it would put her below Yonkou level. Which sureley isn't the case ^^.

This is our definition.
Also re-read my previous post please mate.


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## Mihawk (Feb 22, 2014)

2Broken said:


> @Doflamingo I can't wall of text right now, but I will say this.
> Unfortunately in this thread what admiral level is was not defined for us, so we have to work with the definitions we  choose. The definition my team chose is reasonable and I feel very accurate ( How can you be on the same level as a group of fighters if you have no chance of defeat any of them?).
> 
> You obviously disagree with our definition so you must be working with a different one. So for clarification on what that definition is *could you please post in a non wall of text fashion what makes someone admiral level and not admiral level by your definition?*





Vengeance said:


> Damn, I am just done with my rebuttal and Luke has already published another novel lol.
> I think it's time for both sides to just post a summary with the main arguments as this is getting out of hand with the walls imo.
> In the end it is more or less just a question of which definition of admiral level is more suitable.



apologies, there was just a lot that needed to be said and addressed, and a detailed and elaborate explanation was needed 

anyways Bitty has summed up the definition that we're working with

since the start of this discussion, and the posting of your side's opening argument, it was pretty clear that we were already working with different definitions and operating on different standards of the term.


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> apologies, there was just a lot that needed to be said and addressed, and a detailed and elaborate explanation was needed



No problem at all.



Doflαmingo said:


> anyways Bitty has summed up the definition that we're working with



He has? Where?



Doflαmingo said:


> since the start of this discussion, and the posting of your side's opening argument, it was pretty clear that we were already working with different definitions and operating on different standards of the term.



I do indeed know we are working with different definitions, but yours seems unclear to me. Maybe you can clarify, so i'll ask you directly. What exactly is required of a character to consider them admiral level according to your definition?


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## Bitty (Feb 22, 2014)

> Correct, because Kuzan doesn't represent all the admirals. Now if Marco can't possibly beat Kuzan and Akainu he is now below their level and if he can't possibly beat any of the admirals he is below admiral level. Do you see what we mean?



like I said....but not every character is Kizaru, Aokiji, & Akainu. There are not the only top fighters in the world. Unless you think they're the only 3 characters admiral level.
& what feats, hype, portrayal does Kizaru have to suggest he can beat Akainu? What feats, hype, or portrayal does Sengoku has to suggest he could have beat Garp who fought Roger to death? What suggest Mihawk & Old Rayleigh can clearly beat the admirals? None, but there's enough to suggest they're all on the same generally level & are top fighters. Same with Marco in our opinion. Basically you're saying if you can't beat one of them, you're not admiral level or a top level fighter in their bracket, even if there's a possibility you can push them very high-diff or even extreme. What?!

like I said, unless you think all top fighters in the world are equal, must all be able to beat each other, & almost every strength gap is the same..how does that logic work.



> Marco has never pushed an admiral in combat and has never had a prolonged fight with one. (fights in one piece can last over a week) We have never stated that Marco has to be dead equal to the admirals, we just said he has to have a chance at victory and he doesn't. If you watch a game/fight and you can say 100% who is going to win at the beginning than the sides are not on the same level. Big Mom is Yonko level by definition, as the level comes from the strength of the Yonko and she is a Yonko. All admirals are admiral level and Luffy, Zoro and Sanji are M3 level by definition. To be in their level you have to have a chance at beating one of them.


Marco has never pushed an admiral in combat or had a prolonged fight with one, but he has enough hype, feats, & portrayal to suggest he can. Mihawk has never pushed an admiral, but his hype more than suggest he's a top fighter on their level. In order to have a chance at victory to have to damn near equal with them or stronger. you can watch a game or fight & can 100% say who's going win because one team/fighter has a more going for them or a better record or better players etc, that doesn't stop the opposing team or fighter from giving them a great close match & proving to be on their general level & worthy opponents whether they win or lose. 

Yes, Big Mom is a yonkou & has the strength that comes with it, & guess who was compared to other yonkou even without a captain & a severely crippled crew. Marco. I made the points right here, which you didn't counter yet.

*Spoiler*: __ 



yes, Marco is the strongest WB pirate since WB died. He's the strongest & leader of a crew the Goro compared to the other yonkou. He was the right hand man of the World's Strongest Man & has been with him since Roger's era. Considering the WB pirates have no official captain, It's obvious the Goro recognized his strength, experience, & leadership capabilities enough to him throw his name in the convo even with a severely severely crippled crew & the burdens & hardships of everything they've been through, & put him on the same pedestal as a captain & the other yonkou.

So if Marco's & crew are the only ones capable of doing something only the other yonkou can do, that's going to require strength above anything else, that's not a direct comparison & doesn't put them in the same league as the other yonkou with Marco as their leader? even you doubted that one yourself, but I'll reassure some doubt in you.

Yes, Marco did not stop Teach & Teach still became a yonkou, but that's not necessary a down play on Marco or should force us to jump to conclusions. Think about this. How much sense would it make for Marco to stop & defeat the main villain of the series, who has a higher growth rate than any character not named Luffy, wields two of the strongest fruits, & is destined to defeat Shanks. Marco's strong but he's not that strong. Even though 1.we don't even know for sure if he's fought Teach yet. 2. If they did fight we don't know how far Marco pushed Teach or how Teach won. Marco could have been the one to push Teach to admiral or Shanks level for all we know. Besides, no one one was able to stop Teach. The Marines & other Yonkou included. the manga clearly says BB used his extensive knowledge of WB's territory to quickly rise & gain the yonkou title. you really think a crippled WB crew is going to able to defend every piece of territory from every other pirate out there? yonkou included......Big Mom herself took fish-men island. That's just too much for them. The fact they were severely crippled & lacked a captain but still compared to the other yonkou in the first place is insane praise.

Yes, Cnet is one of the most of the accurate & trustworthy translators there is. He's a much more creditable source than most manga sites & the judges will most likely agree to this.





> I'm not saying he doesn't have good portrayal, but just having hype doesn't automatically make him as strong as admirals. (Who arguably have even better hype) You need a definition that separates admiral level from not admiral level that you can use for any character, but you seem to be unable to do that.


Sooo....the right hand man of WB, who's been with him since Roger's era, who was compared to the other yonkou even without a captain & severely crippled crew with him as their leader, & equally clashed with Kizaru & had the edge in portrayal, Kizaru even needing outside assistance to take him down.......is not enough hype & portrayal to suggest he's a top fighter & is in the same league as the admirals?


> He hasn't shown to be the par with the admirals in any thing but defense and yes we believe that if he can't possible beat an admiral he isn't admiral level. That is our definition of admiral level, I would say our definition makes more sense than your teams, but your team doesn't have one.


so Marco hasn't shown top level stamina, endurance, speed/reaction, & physical strength?
you guys have yet to deny or counter our argument against his speed, endurance & stamina.
as for physical strenght..I saw no counter to this.

*Spoiler*: __ 



no, you're clearly downplaying his feat. Here's what we saw. Marco came at Kizaru so fast, forcing him into a guarded position, after his first two attacks failed, & broke through his guard. Meaning he overcame the defense Kizaru's put up by having his enough haki to bypass his logia intan, making contact, then have enough physical strength to overpower him in the exchange. We've seen Kizaru fight & launch attacks in mid-air plenty of times. He's stayed afloat in the air for multiple panels, not to mention the extreme likely hood of him knowing geppou. Kizaru has the ability to move light speed from point A to point B, whether he's in the air or not. Why didn't he just stop himself from crashing or just use his teleportation like abilities before he hit the ground, causing a huge explosion that may put fellow marines in harm? You know why? because the kick was that powerful. Why would he warn the other marines to watch out for Marco, if he didn't Marco's power seriously? & that's just the initial feats...here's the overall portrayal.

His portrayal was just as good as Kizaru's in that exchange. Kizaru launched an attack meant for WB, Marco easily intercepted the attack in seconds, tanking the lasers & the explosion from the contact of the lasers. Marco then mocked Kizaru. Went from the ship to the top of Kizaru's head in seconds(while tanking Kizaru's yata no kagami again) Kizaru put his guard up, they made contact, Kizaru then mocked Marco, Marco broke Kizaru's guard & sent him flying....Kizaru, unharmed, then warned the other marines. How is this not equal portrayal?


Why would Oda put a guy who's not in the same league as the admirals & have coming out better in a clash with the admiral.....& latter on having that same admiral needing outside assistance just to momentarily slow Marco down..

off-guard or not, he broke through an admiral's weapon & still had enough force to send that admiral flying, not to mention block an attack from Akainu straight in the face & hold him off with zero damage. There's no way Oda is not portraying this guy on similar level to the admirals when it comes to physical strength.




We just think it's an extremely flawed logic to basically say if you can't beat one of them, you're not admiral level or a top level fighter in their bracket, even if there's a possibility you can push them very high-diff or even extreme. seriously?! you're not in their league even if  you can give them with that type of fight?


> Everyone who is able to defeat one of the confirmed admiral level people (preferably admirals^^) is admiral level (or even above)


*Then what about someone like Old Rayleigh? is he not a top fighter or in the same league admirals because he's not been confirmed to beat an admiral no doubt?
& what forces that argument to be the clear cut law or standard for every fighter.
If you can beat the admirals or tie them, that puts you in the same league as them because you're stronger or equal. If can't beat them but can still push them high or extreme diff & have enough have hype & portrayal to be a top level fighter, that puts you in the same league as them because you've proven yourself on a similar level whether you win or lose*.


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

@Bitty your problem is you are trying to take the extremely general term top fighter and equate it to admiral level.

How are they the same thing???


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## Shanks (Feb 22, 2014)

I posted my trio of walls of text, went to sleep, wake up and this thread is essentially double in length with 80% of the text after my post coming from my team mates. Haven't really catch up with all the reading yet, needless to say responding, but will try to make time.

Also, I think we've elaborate on Admiral level on all of our post(all 3 of us) previously already.

I would like to request comments and questions from more judges before building more walls as we want to focus the important points and questions from a neural party.


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

Sabo said:


> I would like to request comments and questions from more judges before building more walls as we want to focus the important points and questions from a neural party.



I agree with this, I want to see what the judges think and if they have any questions.


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## Unclear Justice (Feb 22, 2014)

I can?t ask you a question that is directly related to the content of this debate. The questions coming to my mind would already assist a team simply by posing them. 

But I can ask both teams the following:

Would you agree that all of you have the same or at least a very similar opinion on Marco?s standing in comparison to the Sakazuki, Borsalino and Kuzan and thus the core of the debate is which take on the term 'Admiral level' is the better one to use? That?s the impression that I got from you until now.

If both teams can answer this question with 'yes' it would make the rest of the debate more straightforward and this would help everyone - debaters, judges and observers.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 22, 2014)

*Rapid Fire Round Ends in 14 Hours.*


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> I can?t ask you a question that is directly related to the content of this debate. The questions coming to my mind would already assist a team simply by posing them.



Fair enough.



Unclear Justice said:


> But I can ask both teams the following:
> 
> Would you agree that all of you have the same or at least a very similar opinion on Marco?s standing in comparison to the Sakazuki, Borsalino and Kuzan and thus the core of the debate is which take on the term 'Admiral level' is the better one to use? That?s the impression that I got from you until now.
> 
> If both teams can answer this question with 'yes' it would make the rest of the debate more straightforward and this would help everyone - debaters, judges and observers.



Personally I think everyone here believes Marco is weaker than all the admirals, so in that regard I think we all agree. The difference is that my team believes that in order to be admiral level, you have to be able to have a chance at defeating one in a 1vs. 1 fair fight and the opposing team does not believe that.

That is the difference, but it is hard to have the debate, because the opposing team as far as I can tell hasn't stated what is require of a character to be admiral level according to whatever definition of admiral level they are using.

I hope I have answered your question. If any other judges have questions or comments feel free to post as I might not be able to respond in a few hours.


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 22, 2014)

Okay, my short questions for both teams:

Team Yes: Do you think that Marco has a chance of beating any known character that holds or held a rank of Admiral? It is not clear for me from your argument.

Team No: Do you think that Marco would not be able to injure an Admiral in prolonged fight, even though Jozu was able to do it to Aokiji in short skirmish?


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

Lord Melkor said:


> Team No: Do you think that Marco would not be able to injure an Admiral in prolonged fight, even though Jozu was able to do it to Aokiji in short skirmish?



That is an interesting question, because even though Marco has had multiple opportunities and reasons to injure an admiral he has never done it, even when he had a free shot on them. 

The thing is Jozu has a strength feat far better than any thing Marco has done and he sneak attacked Aokiji with a diamond arm straight to the mouth and all he caused was a bloody lip. (Not really a skirmish) However I see Marco's haki being equal or better than Jozu's and he does have zoan enhanced strength, sharp talons and regen to give him multiple opportunities.

So despite him failing to hurt an admiral l think he could in a prolonged fight, but the damage would be superficial. something like small bruises or cuts. The worse part of the battle for the admiral will be burning through Marco's regen not getting hurt.

Hope I answered your question.


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## Shanks (Feb 22, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> I can?t ask you a question that is directly related to the content of this debate. The questions coming to my mind would already assist a team simply by posing them.
> 
> But I can ask both teams the following:
> 
> ...



Actually, the answer would be "NO". we believe Marco is capable of fighting the Admirals and pushing the stronger one to high difficulties and others in extreme difficulties due to all feats, portrayal and hype. While the weaker Admirals have a higher chance of winning, they certainly won't win 10/10.

The other team obviously believe otherwise due to his short coming alone and dismishish most of his feats, hypes and portrayal.




			
				2broken said:
			
		

> Personally I think everyone here believes Marco is weaker than all the admirals, so in that regard I think we all agree. The difference is that my team believes that in order to be admiral level, you have to be able to have a chance at defeating one in a 1vs. 1 fair fight and the opposing team does not believe that.
> 
> That is the difference, but it is hard to have the debate, because the opposing team as far as I can tell hasn't stated what is require of a character to be admiral level according to whatever definition of admiral level they are using.
> 
> I hope I have answered your question. If any other judges have questions or comments feel free to post as I might not be able to respond in a few hours.



If you believe “weaker” are Aokiji / Kizaru / Fujitora to Akainu, then we can agree to that definition of “weaker”, else we’re in a disagreement again.

We have clearly hinted, stated and elaborated on what we believe ‘Admiral Level’ is in all almost all posts, so I don’t know why you continue to ask for this definition.

If you want a smaller summary then our definition for “Admiral Level” would to be someone with the feats, hypes and portrayal to be able to push to high and extreme difficulties against other Admiral level fighters in manga, whether it’s Akainu, Kizau, Aokiji, Old Garp, Old Sengoku, Old Rayleigh, Fujitora or Old Sick Injury Whitebeard.

The issue here is that you continue to only use the C3 as the example and due the different natural of their combat abilities to Marco, it’s more difficult to compare. While we do compare Marco to the C3, we also compare him to Admiral Level fighters with similar fighting capabilities such as Garp & Sengoku.



			
				Lord Melkor said:
			
		

> Team Yes: Do you think that Marco has a chance of beating any known character that holds or held a rank of Admiral? It is not clear for me from your argument.



Yes he can because his strength and endurance are on par with the strongest admiral in Akainu, his speed is on par with the fastest admiral in kizaru, his stamina is on par with the C3, he has the best defense in the series and finally his hypes and portrayal is enough to demonstrate that he's a lot more capable offensive wise than what's being displayed at Marineford.


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## Slenderman (Feb 22, 2014)

Bitty said:


> read my last my paragraph & we'll elaborate more on it the final summary.
> 
> have any of the judges been keeping up with the match? lol besides Unclear Justice?



I have. Just finished reading Luke's new novel: _The Marco Diaries_

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Slenderman (Feb 22, 2014)

Also Sabo you said that Garp punched JB. The link you showed didn't show that. Is that anime only or do you have panels for it?


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## 2Broken (Feb 22, 2014)

Sabo said:


> If you want a smaller summary then our definition for “Admiral Level” would to be someone with the feats, hypes and portrayal to be able to push to high and extreme difficulties against other Admiral level fighters in manga, whether it’s Akainu, Kizau, Aokiji, Old Garp, Old Sengoku, Old Rayleigh, Fujitora or Old Sick Injury Whitebeard.



So someone is admiral level if they can give someone who is admiral level a high diff fight? Okay lets say we use that definition and come to the conclusion Garp is admiral level. Now anyone who can give Garp a high diff fight is admiral level, and anyone who can give them a high diff fight is admiral level. Eventually everyone in OP is admiral level. Do you see the problem with your definition?



Sabo said:


> The issue here is that you continue to only use the C3 as the example and due the different natural of their combat abilities to Marco, it’s more difficult to compare. While we do compare Marco to the C3, we also compare him to Admiral Level fighters with similar fighting capabilities such as Garp & Sengoku.



The C3 are the only admirals with sufficient feats to use. I also don't see what is hard to compare, we have seen enough of the C3 and Marco's abilities to compare them. Garp and Sengoku don't have enough feats to use; you are grasping at straws here.


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## Shanks (Feb 22, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Also Sabo you said that Garp punched JB. The link you showed didn't show that. Is that anime only or do you have panels for it?



Sorry, yes that punch was filler, but that panel is basically to show that the BB pirates is unfazed despite fighting both Garp & Sengoku during the war. Below is a more reliable page with Burgess unfaze in 1 pannel and Sengoku and Garp on the other pannel.


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## Shanks (Feb 22, 2014)

2broken said:
			
		

> So someone is admiral level if they can give someone who is admiral level a high diff fight? Okay lets say we use that definition and come to the conclusion Garp is admiral level. Now anyone who can give Garp a high diff fight is admiral level, *and anyone who can give them a high diff fight is admiral level. Eventually everyone in OP is admiral level.* Do you see the problem with your definition?



Firstly, I think you misunderstand in misinterpret that post .I said "high and extreme". That is, Marco could push stronger Admiral level fighters like Akainu to high difficulties but can certainly push old Garp or Fujitora to extreme difficulties and while Marco will win less time out of 10, he is definitely capable of winning given the right mindset and on fair playing ground.

In bold makes no sense. How can everyone eventually give a weaker Admiral in say Kizaru or Fujitora high difficulties?





			
				2broken said:
			
		

> The C3 are the only admirals with sufficient feats to use. I also don't see what is hard to compare, we have seen enough of the C3 and Marco's abilities to compare them. Garp and Sengoku don't have enough feats to use; you are grasping at straws here.



Once again all you're comparing here is "feats". Garp & Sengoku have some feats and enough hypes and portrayal to be consider "Admiral Level". It feels a little desperate to out right dismiss Garp & Sengoku like this.

We can write a few novels together to discuss on this point, but that's probably not necessary. I'm sure the judges is capable of determining themselves what level Garp, Sengoku, Fujitora & Rayleigh are.


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## Slenderman (Feb 22, 2014)

Question to Team No: How much difficulty would in your opinion would Marco give the C3, and Garp and Sengoku? 
Question to Team Yes: How much diff do you think Marco would give Fujitora, Garp and Sengoku, and the C3?


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## Mihawk (Feb 23, 2014)

Would also like to apologize to the judges and observers for my extremely extensive posts 
Due to the fact that I am a very quick typer, I sometimes do not realize or comprehend the length that is produced until after I am done, due to how much there needs to be said 

Hopefully, you will be patient enough in your discretion 




2Broken said:


> No problem at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sure, and I will use a perception of powerscaling to define our meaning. 

Bear with this: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



We believe that Admiral Level as a whole encompasses a range of strength or bracket that is inclusive of the weakest Admiral, to the strongest Admiral. Fitting into this bracket, we also believe that anyone who has been either portrayed to be comparable to the Admirals as a collective representative for their standard of power, anyone who can give the original C3 a high-very high difficulty fight, or anyone who has a chance at defeating, or at the very least, can push the weakest Admiral(which may or may not be Fujitora & Green Bull)  to extreme difficulty. 

In my posts, I have made comparisons to not just the M3 themselves, but fighters with combat prowess comparable to the M3. This was to avoid the fact that the M3 may divulge from an arbitrary ranking which is dictated by their position as the top 3 in their crew, and instead, to also draw comparisons out of fighters whom are on the same level, such as Smoker, Sanji, Vergo, Jinbe, etc. 

The purpose of those analogies, was to demonstrate that some fighters whom fought on par with each other, are portrayed to be on the same level, even if they are not necessarily dead equal. 

By our standard, Admiral Level can range from the lower end of the bracket, from  people like Fujitora(like I said, I stand to be proven wrong or correct whether or not he turns out to be just as equal to the C3 as they are to each other, but I believe it is likely that he is weaker than them as a whole), to Garp & Sengoku, to the strongest Admiral, Akainu. 

In our opinion, even the weakest Admiral would be able to give the strongest Admiral, at the very least, a high difficulty fight, while with the rest, it would vary from either also being high difficulty, to very high difficulty, and then the maximum standard would be the closeness of Akainu/Aokiji: extreme difficulty. So basically, we are using Akainu as the maximum and highest standard for Admiral Level, as he is the strongest Admiral. This is, of course, not to include characters whom deviate from the current timeline, such as Prime Garp/Prime Sengoku. 

We believe that if a character is able to fulfill the minimum standards in the criteria, then he can be considered Admiral Level. The minimum standard in this case: is to give the weakest Admiral extreme difficulty or even defeat him through extreme difficulty, while giving the strongest Admiral, a high difficulty fight, at the very least. If a character would be able to give the strongest Admiral very high difficulty, then we pretty much classify him as fitting into the middle of the bracket. The difference of power between the C3 is negligible but Admiral Level as a whole is a bit less congested. To sum it up, if Marco is able to give the C3 a high or very high difficulty fight, then he has satisfied our criteria of being Admiral Level, even if he is not dead equal to Akainu in the same way that Aokiji is. To be able to give them extreme difficulty, one would be on the higher spectrum of the overall standard of "Admiral Level", and virtually equal in every aspect to the C3. But we believe that to be on the same level or general league, is distinctly different from being that close in power.

On the flip-side, since we believe that the weakest Admiral until proven down the line(in this case, Fujitora), can push the strongest Admiral(Akainu) to high difficulty, if Marco is only able to push Fujitora to high difficulty, instead of extreme or having it go either way, then he would have fallen short of our standard definition, as the C3 would make even shorter work of him, ranging around the mid-diff, meaning that he would be to far from the Original Colored Trio to be able to fight on par with them as a collective of individuals. 








Lord Melkor said:


> Okay, my short questions for both teams:
> 
> Team Yes: Do you think that Marco has a chance of beating any known character that holds or held a rank of Admiral? It is not clear for me from your argument.



Yes. 



Slenderman said:


> Question to Team Yes: How much diff do you think Marco would give Fujitora, Garp and Sengoku, and the C3?



Fujitora: could go either way extreme difficulty

Garp: depends on how strong Garp is, relative to the C3, but perhaps very high-extreme difficulty

Sengoku: extreme difficulty

Kizaru: high-very high difficulty 

Aokiji: high-very high difficulty

Akainu: high-very high difficulty

I hope this was clear enough


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## Bitty (Feb 23, 2014)

2Broken said:


> @Bitty your problem is you are trying to take the extremely general term top fighter and equate it to admiral level.
> 
> How are they the same thing???



because admirals are among the top fighters in the world. & if you're one of the top fighters in the world, along with the admirals, you're most likely going to be in the same league as the admirals..whether you win or lose..relatively speaking that is. just because you're say.... top 20 doesn't make you in the same league admiral as admirals, if the gaps are that big. Dofla is probably a top fighter, relatively speaking, but I doubt he's in the same league as the admirals. I'm talking bout the elites. people who have enough to feats, hype, & portrayal to suggest the gap isn't that big & to put them among the top with the yonkou & admirals. The solid top tiers. Marco has enough for our team to believe he's in the bracket of those top fighters, he's a solid top tier & on the same level as the admirals, even if he can 100% beat an admiral, & hopefully the judges will too. Things like Marco's name being mentioned in the same breathe as the yonkou. Does that mean he can defiantly beat an admiral or yonkou? of course not, but the recognition is enough to suggest he's on that level more or less & the gap isn't that big..or his name wouldn't even been brought up in the first place, especially under those extreme conditions. He was seen as doing something only yonkou can do, that required strength above anything else. In our opinion, that puts him among the top fighters like yonkou & admirals. 

We just think it's an extremely flawed logic to basically say if you can't beat one of them, you're not admiral level or a top level fighter in their bracket, even if there's a possibility you can push them very high-diff or even extreme. seriously?! you're not in their league even if  you can give them with that type of fight?


> Everyone who is able to defeat one of the confirmed admiral level people (preferably admirals^^) is admiral level (or even above)


what forces that argument to be the clear cut law or standard for every fighter.
If you can beat the admirals or tie them, that puts you in the same league as them because you're stronger or equal. If you can't beat them but can still push them high or extreme diff & have enough have hype & portrayal to be a top level fighter along with them, that puts you in the same league as them because you've proven yourself on a similar level whether you win or lose.

 to be admiral level or solid top tier, you must have enough hype, feats, & portrayal to suggest you're in the same league as the admirals & the other top fighters in world. Marco is in the same league as the admirals & can them give a hard fight, whether he loses or not. you can watch a game or fight & can 100% say who's going win because one team/fighter has a more going for them or a better record or better players etc, that doesn't stop the opposing team or fighter from giving them a great close match & proving to be on their general level & worthy opponents whether they win or lose. 



Lord Melkor said:


> Okay, my short questions for both teams:
> 
> Team Yes: Do you think that Marco has a chance of beating any known character that holds or held a rank of Admiral? It is not clear for me from your argument.
> 
> Team No: Do you think that Marco would not be able to injure an Admiral in prolonged fight, even though Jozu was able to do it to Aokiji in short skirmish?



yes. We believe Marco has a chance of beating Fujitora & Old Sengoku....while giving the rest very high-diff, thus putting him in the same league as the admirals. We didn't want to go too far & suggest he'd defiantly beat or draw with anyone who's admiral, cause the admirals have respectfully shown more.


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## Shanks (Feb 23, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> *Rapid Fire Round Ends in 14 Hours.*



Which means the rapid fire round will end in roughly 4 hours.

Does judges have anymore questions and does Team No feel like responding to our bibliography title "Marco of The Phoenix" with the main author being our very own Doflamingo?

I will be around for the next few hours to answer any questions raised.


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## Vengeance (Feb 23, 2014)

> Question to Team No: How much difficulty would in your opinion would Marco give the C3, and Garp and Sengoku?


I can't speak for our whole team of course, but I would say high end of mid difficulty (Akainu) to normal high difficulty (Kizaru).
Which versions of Garp and Sengoku?




> We believe that if a character is able to fulfill the minimum standards in the criteria, then he can be considered Admiral Level. The minimum standard in this case: is to give the weakest Admiral extreme difficulty or even defeat him through extreme difficulty, while giving the strongest Admiral, a high difficulty fight, at the very least. If a character would be able to give the strongest Admiral very high difficulty, then we pretty much classify him as fitting into the middle of the bracket. The difference of power between the C3 is negligible but Admiral Level as a whole is a bit less congested. To sum it up, if Marco is able to give the C3 a high or very high difficulty fight, then he has satisfied our criteria of being Admiral Level, even if he is not dead equal to Akainu in the same way that Aokiji is. To be able to give them extreme difficulty, one would be on the higher spectrum of the overall standard of "Admiral Level", and virtually equal in every aspect to the C3. But we believe that to be on the same level or general league, is distinctly different from being that close in power.
> 
> On the flip-side, since we believe that the weakest Admiral until proven down the line(in this case, Fujitora), can push the strongest Admiral(Akainu) to high difficulty, if Marco is only able to push Fujitora to high difficulty, instead of extreme or having it go either way, then he would have fallen short of our standard definition, as the C3 would make even shorter work of him, ranging around the mid-diff, meaning that he would be to far from the Original Colored Trio to be able to fight on par with them as a collective of individuals.





> yes. We believe Marco has a chance of beating Fujitora & Old Sengoku....while giving the rest very high-diff, thus putting him in the same league as the admirals. We didn't want to go too far & suggest he'd defiantly beat or draw with anyone who's admiral, cause the admirals have respectfully shown more.



▪ This thread is about primarily about the C3, because the new admirals have either no or close to no feats.
▪ Now you include Fujitora and claim he is the weakest admiral and that Marco can beat him. And  this is based on what?
▪ Since you include Fujitora and also say Marco should give the strongest admiral high difficulty, we may include Prime Garp (who should be counted as admiral obviously) and ask if and how Marco can give him a high difficulty fight. 
▪ How does Marco beat Sengoku?
▪ How does Marco give the C3 very high difficulty? He has only shown to be able to keep them busy, but nothing that actually is a real danger for them. Neither have you imo.

Also, quote from your opening argument:


Sabo said:


> To end the initial argument, no one's saying he can beat an admiral or even push them extreme-diff.


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## Shanks (Feb 23, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> I can't speak for our whole team of course, but I would say high end of mid difficulty (Akainu) to normal high difficulty (Kizaru).
> Which versions of Garp and Sengoku?
> 
> 
> ...




Wow, how very sneaky to post this a few mins before the set time! I will respond to it anyway. Whether or not my next post counts or not it doesn't matter because we've addressed this in our post on many occasions already, Team no continues ignore or not response to it.


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## Vengeance (Feb 23, 2014)

Sabo said:


> Wow, how very sneaky to post this a few mins before the set time! I will respond to it anyway. Whether or not my next post counts or not it doesn't matter because we've addressed this in our post on many occasions already, Team no continues ignore or not response to it.



I got up at my usual time on sunday and made this post since I was unable to answer before. Really sneaky.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 23, 2014)

*Rapid Fire Round has ended. Teams have 24 hours to post their closing arguments.*


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## Shanks (Feb 24, 2014)

It has being an extensive debate with over 70 quality posts, each longer than then next, but all worth reading and comprehending. I will firstly like to remind everyone what we are debating here ? ?Is Marco Admiral Level?? We are not discussing ?Is Marco absolutely equal to the Admiral? or ?Can Marco defeat an Admiral?.


Prior to approaching this debate, there wasn?t a clear cut definition of ?Admiral Level? nor was there a clear brief on what ?Admiral Level? was. What we?ve considered as ?Admiral Level? are widely accepted by the forum and the fandom as ?Top Tier? and all our arguments delivered have being to support Marco as ?Admiral Level/Top Tier?. Not all ?Top Tier? are equal, therefore if you can barely beat, tie or are slightly under (push from high to extreme difficulties) an Admiral, wouldn?t that put you in the same level as the C3, whether you win or lose?


Throughout the debate, we have being stressing the importance of keeping the discussion in context and comprehending feats at the bigger picture when looking at Marco?s achievement by reviewing all feats, hypes and portrayal and not just certain short coming at face value as we can all agree Marineford are heavily clusterfuck and it?s very easy to misinterpret feats at face value.

The only argument the opposing team was able bring up, is his lack of offensive capability compared to the Admirals, yet not properly acknowledging the fact he's a different type of fighter compared to them. He's a pure physical brawler much like Garp & Sengoku whom we can all agree are ?Admiral Level? or ?Top Tier?.

They criticise his overall offense, but don't deny his physical strength, speed, mobility, defense, endurance, stamina and overall portrayal which were all displayed as ?Top Tier?. If you look back at page 3, the opposing team never countered majority of our arguments, yet instead, choosing to establish their definition of ?Admiral Level? (which have never being discussed or accepted by the fandom). While Marco didn?t significantly hurt the Admirals, they were unable to hurt Marco (until assistance was provided) during those short encounters. It would be over-simplistic and immature if this was the only point of discussion in this debate. Fortunately, we all know it?s not that simple. 

For the opposing team, the judges and anyone who?s reading this, please name any character in this manga, that's not ?Admiral Level?, that can effortlessly tank all their attacks, come at them with speeds so fast they become alert or surprised and force them into a guarded position with signs of a struggle then proceed to overcome their guard & send them flying more than once. 

Why would Oda introduced a character who's not on the same level as the Admirals, yet give him equal portrayal in his clash with the first Admiral he faces & having that same Admiral required outside assistance just too briefly handicap him? Why would he have him clash with all 3 Admirals & never shown to be inferior?


His strength & endurance are comparable to the strongest Admiral by holding his ground with a bloodlust magma fist to the face and shrug off a heavily impacting and direct punch from the legendary hero of the marines.

Speed and mobility is comparable to the fastest Admiral, while his stamina is comparable to the all 3 colour trio.

His defensive is one of, if not the best in the series ? no explanation needed. While his offense, being a brawler, though capitalising on his flight mobility and incredible strength was able to overpower 2 Admirals physically. 


Marco was the right hand man of The World?s Strongest Man and the successor to Whitebeard?s throne. He was capable of fighting the C3 evenly on separate occasions and is the second strongest fighter from one of two main factions in the war. Afterward, he was spoken in the same breath with the 4 Emperors and essentially crowning him as a Pseudo Yonkou by the most knowledgeable & highest authority figures in the manga ? The Gorosei.

Why would Oda introduce a character who's not on the same level as the Admirals, yet have him compared to the Yonkou by their bosses? It's obvious the Admiral?s superior recognised his strength, experience, & leadership capabilities enough to even throw his name in the meeting even with a severely crippled crew, the burdens and hardships of everything they've been through and still put him on the same pedestal as a captain and the other 4 Emperors?

It's not 1 of these things, but a combination of all 3. Hype, feats & portrayal, all displayed at the ?Top Tier? level. Does all this give Marco a free-pass to beat Admirals more time? Of course not, but everything he's shown suggest he's on the same level as the ?Top Tiers?, including the Admirals. 


In-conclusion, when looking from a holistic point of view and taking into consideration all feats, hypes and portrayal listed above and elaborated throughout this debate, what are the chances of Marco not being comparable to the Admirals and be considered as ?Admiral Level? or ?Top Tier??

_ - Credit to Bitty_


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## Vengeance (Feb 24, 2014)

In the end the answer to the question whether Marco is admiral level or not is mainly depending on how we define admiral level or levels of strength at all.

While the approach of Team Yes gave us the impression that they are extending admiral level to almost the width of Top Tier/League in general (Yonkou first mates up to Yonkou themselves all being on the same level), we tried to give a definition that provides a closer limitation of said level. 

Since we firmly believe that the characters giving a level its name are the perimeters to define that level, it is the range of strength of the admirals that defines admiral level in our view.
Thus if a character fits in somewhere in that range and/or is able to beat at least one of the admirals in a fair fight, he can be considered admiral level. 
[Note: You don't have to be the exact equal of any admiral, as long as you can still defeat one you are admiral level] 
This is our notion of defining a level of strength, providing the ability to draw a clear line.

Based on the feats and portrayal of Marco we firmly believe that while he has shown that he has the means to keep an admiral busy for a period of time, he does not fit in their range of strength and neither can possibly defeat any of them in a fair fight [C3, who are the standard in at least this debate].
Thus he can't be considered admiral level.  
[Note: In order to demonstrate how our definition is working in general, we can also give the example of Monster Trio level. A character who can not possibly defeat any of those defining the level (Luffy, Zoro, Sanji) would be considered below their level.]

Obviously the feats, portrayal and also certain hype Marco has leave room for differing interpretations to some degree, so we think it is best to just provide a neutral overview of facts:
▪ Marco is the first division commander, not the first mate.
▪ He didn't have more official authority than other commanders before Whitebeard's death: 
▪ Marco kicking Aokiji away to protect Luffy: 
▪ Marco blocking Kizaru's attack aimed at Whitebeard:
▪ Skirmish with Kizaru:  
▪ Marco and Vista attacking Akainu after the deadly blow against Ace: 
▪ Marco holding off Akainu from Luffy: 
▪ Marco and the WB Pirates remnants mentioned as being capable of stopping Blackbeard by the Gorosei: 

Despite differing interpretations and perceptions of certain scenes and statements, ultimately both teams share one point of view: Marco can not possibly beat any member of the C3. Moreover we are convinced that further claims implying Fujitora is the weakest admiral and Marco can defeat him to prove our definition wrong should be ignored since the C3 are the standard in this debate and Team Yes obviously couldn't bring up anything that backs their claim.

So, as already stated, whether Marco is admiral level or not in the end mainly depends on if our definition of admiral level or levels in general is reasonable and superior to the broader approach of Team Yes or not.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 24, 2014)

*Judges may now render their verdicts.*


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## Venom (Feb 24, 2014)

First of all I want to thank you all for robbing my precious time 
But seriously although it was not quite easy to read those walls of texts I have to praise you people for the quality of the content.

The "problem" I personally see here is that the conclusion of both, *Team Yes* and *Team No*, are nearly the same.
If I understood those massive walls of texts correctly both agree that Marco would be able to hold his own for a good time against an Admiral but ultimately lose the match.

While *Team Yes* defines "Admiral Level" as a synonymous for "Top Tier Level" and widens the range of possible characters (Marco) , *Team No* defines it strictly as a range between the weakest Admiral to the strongest.
I personally agree with the latter ones definition of "Admiral Level" but at the same time the arguments of *Team Yes* which support Marco are quite better than the arguments-against of *Team No*.

Ulitmately *Team Yes* was the Team which convinced me of Marco's strength hype- and featwise (I rank Marco stronger than I did before this debate) but as in defining "Admiral Level" *Team No* convinced me more.

So to be honest right now I am still not quite sure whom to give my "vote".
After reconsidering it and having another look at the debate I am going to state it.


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## Urouge (Feb 24, 2014)

what I was worried about happened. team yes and team no disagree with what admiral level is. I will base my votes on the team with the better arguments. My vote goes to team yes


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 24, 2014)

I have the same problem, because I think that Team Yes was better at selling Marco than team No was at downplaying him.

But why,  Team Yes, did you claim that any top tier is Admiral level? By your definition Jozu for sure is Admiral level and Vista/pre-ts Teach could be as well.

Frankly, since Team Yes was putting effort showing that Marco is not inferior to  Admirals in vast majority of his stats and may have superior defense, why did you admit so easily that Marco cannot beat  any of the pre-ts Admirals? It is by no means proven that he is inferior to Kizaru. Akainu (and by extension Aokiji) has clearly superior portayal, but we do not know how Kizaru or Fujitora stand compared to Akainu.


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## Magician (Feb 24, 2014)

So much to read. 

I'll vote once I finish this novel called "_Is Marco Admiral Level_".

Hopefully it's a good book, brb.


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## Slenderman (Feb 24, 2014)

This has been a hard debate. Since Bitty has elaborated on the top tier part my problem with that is now gone. It was definitely good but Team No's definition of admiral level makes me uneasy about that and I disagree. *Overall Team Yes wins*. They had the better argument imo. I came into here thinking that Marco isn't admiral level but I leave thinking Marco is actually admiral level and i'm going to have to update my tier list. Congrats to both teams for good arguments but *Team Yes takes the cake for me*.


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## Magician (Feb 24, 2014)

I'm finally done. 

Before I begin, I'd like to say good job to both teams. Both Team Yes and Team No have really good arguments and each member are great debaters in there own right, so matter who wins this match-up everybody deserves a pat on the back.

Okay, first off, admittedly, I came into this debate with a bit of a biased perspective. For the longest I was of the opinion that Marco was massively overrated on this forum and that he was most definitely not at the same level as the admirals. However throughout this debate, Team Yes have provided great arguments and clear cut reasoning on why they believe he is Admiral Level and now I feel like a complete idiot for thinking that Marco would only be able to push an Admiral to mid-diff.

I feel like Team Yes provided a more convincing argument on Marco's portrayal and feats during Marineford than Team No has. Team No in my opinion was a little biased in analyzing Marco's feats. A lot of their argument was focused on a _pure_ feats perspective and ignoring the hype and portrayal that goes a long with it. I also felt like they were misinterpreting what exactly was going on in the panels and showed bias in looking at them.

For example a big part of their argument was that Marco was unable to injure any of the admirals while ignoring the fact(as Team Yes pointed out) that none of the admirals had injured Marco as well. Yes that is because of his devil fruit, but the Admirals were able to tank a lot of attacks because of their devil fruit as well.

Also I like what Doflamingo pointed out, the feats that Marco presented are impressive in conjunction with hype and portrayal and it's not to be looked at from a purely feats perspective, but you also have to consider what is being portrayed. Oda had a reason for Marco clashing with all three admirals and not just clashing but sending them back and breaking through guards as well. 

And it seemed(I could be wrong, it's hard to keep up when there's so much damn reading. ) as though Team No were arguing that Marco's attacks that were shown during Marineford were the peak of his offensive ability. Marineford was a clusterfuck of very short clashes and encounters and we can't say anything conclusive about the limit of a characters encounters when we haven't seen them go all out yet.

What Marco showed were pretty casual, no named kicks which were mainly used for sending them flying back. Which doesn't indicate that he's _incapable_ or would have great difficulty injuring an Admiral as Jozu, who we know is canonically inferior to Marco was able to do that much. So I thought that wasn't that strong of an argument.

Finally to the subject of what makes someone "Admiral Level". 

I knew from the beginning that there would be an argument over this definition and that both teams would differ on what it means. What Admiral Level means is pretty subjective but I believe Team Yes, also had the +1 in this part as well.

I like the comparison with the M3 level. Team No made the argument that in order to be M3 level(and Admiral Level in extension), you had to be able to beat one of them in a 1v1 fight. 

However the counter argument was that even though you can't exactly beat them doesn't mean you aren't around their same general level. One of the examples Team Yes gave was how Smoker was considered on par with Vergo even though he wasn't able to beat them in a fight.(Also most people considered Mr. 2, Jyabura to be around M3 level at the time even though they were unable to beat Sanji.)

I feel like Team Yes gave a more convincing argument in this regard than Team No had. That you don't have to be dead equals to someone to be considered around their general level. 

Overall, I think Team Yes had the better argument in this debate(they even convinced me when I had a pretty strong opinion that Marco was overrated as fuck) and reasoned out their arguments better and were extension more convincing than Team No. However props to Team No as well, they did an amazing job too.

But since their can only be 1 winner.

*[Vote: Team Yes]*

There now you have your own novel-like post to read. Sucks doesn't it. 

Imagine if you had to read 20+ more post like this. 

/me being a complaining lazy ass.


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## Unclear Justice (Feb 24, 2014)

A few things before I start:

1. The stamina and enthusiasm of you debaters is astonishing.
2. To live up to the standard of this debate I will post my complete train of thoughts in this verdict. 
3. If I use the term 'admirals' I always refer to Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru.
4. Keep in mind that I only use arguments that were used by the debaters.
5. Many things have been written and sometimes people in the same team contradicted each other. So don?t hold it against me if I write something about you that?s not 100% correct from your perspectives. Everything I write about you I write to the best of my knowledge.
6. If someone feels the need to discuss something I wrote here I?m ready to do so, but not here. No matter what the outcome of such a discussion would be, my decision is final.


Well then, let?s go.



The topic of this debate is:

*"Is Marco Admiral Level?"​*

To answer this question it is necessary to define what Admiral Level is and to show that Marco either meets or fails to meet the conditions to consider him Admiral Level.

This makes the following questions fundamental:

*What is Team Yes? definition of Admiral Level?
What is Team No?s definition of Admiral Level?
Is Marco Admiral Level by Team Yes? standards?
Is Marco Admiral Level by Team No?s standards?*


I will now answer these questions:


I start by summarizing the definitions of both teams with my own words.

Team Yes: Admiral Level basically means top tier. It?s bounded below with the criteria being whether a certain character can give all admirals at least a high diff battle or not. 

Team No: Admiral Level is defined by Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru and the space in between them. Every other character that would beat at least one of them or is in general stronger than at least one of them also is on that level.


It becomes clear that the group of people that fulfills Team No?s definition is a subset of the group of people that fulfills Team Yes? definition.


Here is a sketch to illustrate the current situation how I see it (sorry if it confuses someone, I thought it?s the best way to show what I mean):



It shows the power scale of all One Piece characters from generally weakest (left) to strongest (right). 
The red area is Team Yes? definition.
The yellow area is Team No?s definition.
The green area is Team Yes? estimation of Marco.
The blue area is Team No?s estimation of Marco.  
Based on the definitions of both teams this scale can be divided into group A, B and C.

Now it is important to determine which group Marco belongs to.

If Marco is part of A, Team No is right.
If Marco is part of C, Team Yes is right.
If Marco is part of B, I have to find another way to determine who gets my vote.

Neither Team Yes nor Team No argue that Marco is superior to one of the admirals. This means we can exclude group C.

Team Yes argues that Marco is a top tier. Team No sometimes stated or at least left open the possibility of Marco not being a top tier by the standards of Team Yes. This is the point where all of your talk about feats, portrayal and hype comes in. Team Yes fought well enough (meaning they won most, but not all points of these argumentations) for me to think that Marco being in group A is too unlikely to consider it from this point on.

This means Marco is in group B. Group B is part of Admiral Level by Team Yes? standard and it?s not by Team No?s standard.

With this we have the answers to all the questions I posted at the beginning. Sadly there is no conclusion yet. This is a good sign for you because it means that both teams can?t be proven wrong content wise but it?s bad for me, because now I have to decide the winner by answering a question that I would have preferred to avoid. 



The question is:

*Which definition of Admiral level is the better one to use?​*

I will decide this by answering two questions:


1. Which team could better defend their approach on this term against the objections of the other team? 

Both teams were able to defend their definition completely. Every attempt to show flaws within each other?s definitions could be negated because they were based on misconceptions. So we have a draw here.


2. Which definition lets less room for interpretation and thus is the better one to use for an objective estimation of Marco?s standing?

Both approaches work within the presented argumentations. 
Both approaches have a subjective note that actually makes them unusable in the general case.

The subjective note in Team Yes? definition is the term ?high diff?. How difficult something is is a matter of perception. Thus the meaning of ?high diff? varies from person to person. 

The subjective note in Team No?s definition is the personal estimation of the overall strength of top tiers and the answer of the question ?Who would win against who??.

The difference between those two things is that the latter can become fully objective in the future if Oda provides us with enough information. The former cannot become fully objective because differences in human perception and opinion will never cease to exist.


Conclusion: Both definitions aren?t suited for the general use. But Team No?s definition has a chance of becoming suited in the future. 

This is the small but crucial difference. My vote goes to Team No. 


*TL;DR:* Team No gets my vote because I can?t pick a winner based on the statements about Marco and their take on 'Admiral Level? has a higher chance on becoming suited for the general use.


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 24, 2014)

Okay, 

As I said, Team Yes, had a very strong argument in favor of Marco having fighting capabilities on par with the Admirals. Team No was not able to successfully counter most of their points and their analysis was not as comprehensive, they mostly focused on Marco's lack of offensive feats on par with the Admirals, while Team Yes analyzed the bigger picture..

On the other hand, I had an impression that Team Yes was unsure and a bit condradictory about what Admiral level is. They stated several times that Marco is unlikely to beat any Admiral. With the quaility of their argument, I would expect them to be more confident. In particular, I had a problem with first few sentences of Sabo's closing post, which said that Marco is Admiral level because he is top tier but he propably cannot beat the Admirals - at least this was my impression. You could well say that Marco's portrayal was equal to Kizaru's and ask Team No to prove otherwise.

So this is actually a draw for me. Can I make my vote a draw?


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## Shanks (Feb 24, 2014)

Okay, so if I am counting this right:


Urouge: Yes
Slenderman: Yes
♦Young Master♦: Yes
Unclear Justice: No
Lord Melkor: Draw
Venom: TBA
Sakazuki: Disqualify due to perm banned?


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## Slenderman (Feb 24, 2014)

@LM SH4L could make a draw a vote for both teams but the easiest thing to do is to vote. SH4L could become a judge if Venom and LM say no so he could break the tie breaker.


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 24, 2014)

Okay, then I vote for Team Yes, I think that they made a bit more effort and convinced me more. Though Team No was good as well, just someone has to win.


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## Slenderman (Feb 24, 2014)

It's a rap guys. Congratulations Team Marco. Enjoy your sparkly usernames/big avy's  I wonder what we will debate next.


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## Shanks (Feb 24, 2014)

Since most the Judges voted, I would like to post a final comment of the debate overall, if that’s okay with everyone.

Firstly, in the topic selection thread, I and most people was convinced that Team Yes got this in the bag, because the question was simply “Is Marco Admiral” – I mean, why wouldn’t he be? Probably 70% – 80% of the fandom believes Marco is Admiral Level before even attempting to debate, but….

But then people start complaining! Jesus Christ! Which caused SH4L to clear up the brief and stated “Said Admirals of course being the original colored trio.”, which automatically put Team Yes at a disadvantage and made this debate a lot more difficult than it we originally believe it to be.

We arguably have one of the best debaters in this section in Doflamingo, yet there was one time he was questioning that we might have a disadvantage during the rapid fire round because the brief was the “colored trio”, instead just “Admiral”. That said he did pull through and mad prompts to this guy for able to do so - If we had anyone else on the team (except for maybe RG), we might have lose. 

In my opinion, the most difficult components for this debate are not the arguments itself, but panel of judges. Firstly, we have an overwhelming number of Judges who automatically believe Marco is not Admiral Level to begin with (based on their posts outside of this debate), but there was a glimmer of hope when RG joined the panel. Unfortunately, that beacon of light went down the drained when he got banned! 

Prompts to the judges for trying to keep up with this debate, prompts to team No for doing a fantastic job and was able to capitalise on the final brief. Based on the Judges’ comment, it was a very close conclusion.

The amount of effort, time and preparation Bitty & Dofla put into this debate is tremendous. If you think these walls of text are long, you’ll be flabbergasted if you see the amount of preparation material we’ve prepared.

The next debate should ideally be “Are the Admirals and Emperors equal?” as there were 4 votes on the old nomination thread.



Looking forward to the next debate and I hope I’ll be able to judge this time around.

Cheers,

Sabo


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 24, 2014)

*Congratulations to Team Yes. You each earn five points. It was a valiant effort put forth by both teams. *


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## Mihawk (Feb 25, 2014)

Team No, you guys were great and deserving as well
Know that on any other day, I would have had the flexibility to debate on either side, so it's nothing personal



So...what are the prizes, SH4L???


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## Bitty (Feb 25, 2014)

5 points....you need 10 points for a prize.lol


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## Mihawk (Feb 25, 2014)

....................really wanted a larger avy


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## Venom (Feb 25, 2014)

Congratulations to *Team Yes*
I am sorry that I couldn't state my final opinion.
I was at school and planned to do it afterwards.
If anyone is interested: It was a draw for me.


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## 2Broken (Feb 25, 2014)

Good Debate Team Yes, congrats on your victory and thanks to the judges for going through all that.


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## Slenderman (Feb 25, 2014)

I wonder what we will debate next. I'm tired of sitting on the sidelines I want to debate.


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## Shanks (Feb 25, 2014)

Can I recommend changing the timing to?
•	Opening Argument: 48 Hours
•	Rebuttal: 48 hours
•	Rapid Fire: 48 Hours
•	Closing: 24 Hours
•	Voting: 24 Hours
72 hours for opening was too much and we were all stressing for time on the rapid fire round (especially team no).

Maybe do “is the Admirals Whitebeard’s level”?  For the next topic?

SH4L can delegate the organiser position to an active member here if you’re busy.


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## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2014)

^yo just chill haha

we shouldn't push our luck all the time bro 
I think the time limit was fine, especially for the opening argument, since it's crucial to come up with enough backbone to support that, and having the enough time to do so


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