# General Marvel Comics Discussion: "It's Coming" Avengers vs X-Men - Part 1



## Tazmo (Mar 30, 2012)

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*


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## Banhammer (Mar 30, 2012)

*General Marvel Comics Discussion: "It's Coming" Avengers vs X-Men*

yeah yeah green boy, you canibalize your post count all you want.


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## Banhammer (Mar 30, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VpyPMVYAdI&feature=g-all-u&context=G25636beFAAAAAAAAKAA[/YOUTUBE]


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## shit (Mar 30, 2012)

pretty bizarre time to make a new thread, taz


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## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Mar 30, 2012)

Must be the new stuff.


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## Terra Branford (Mar 31, 2012)

So many closed threads today, and now so many subs needing updates. Guess it had to happen 'cause of all the forum problems...


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## Banhammer (Mar 31, 2012)

sections like these whose activity is condensed in select threads should be the only ones aflicted


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## Terra Branford (Mar 31, 2012)

So, does anyone know what exactly is going to be playing in Disney XD's Marvel Block? I can't seem to find a list, though I probably googled a wrong term. 

Weird that Disney has a Marvel block and Cartoon Network has a DC block. But its good, because it gives me a chance to catch up and watch it all...hopefully.


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## Banhammer (Mar 31, 2012)

disney has a marvel block _because_ CN got itself a DC block


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## Emperor Joker (Mar 31, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> So, does anyone know what exactly is going to be playing in Disney XD's Marvel Block? I can't seem to find a list, though I probably googled a wrong term.
> 
> Weird that Disney has a Marvel block and Cartoon Network has a DC block. But its good, because it gives me a chance to catch up and watch it all...hopefully.



I'm assuming it's going to be Avengers and Ultimate Spider-Man...doubt they'll have any shorts like DC Nation does though


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## Banhammer (Mar 31, 2012)

they won't

But they will use old 70's cartoon clips and re-edit them into jokes

Like Doom singing double rainbow


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## Terra Branford (Mar 31, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> disney has a marvel block _because_ CN got itself a DC block



That's what I thought first, but then thought maybe it was just coincidence. 



Emperor Joker said:


> I'm assuming it's going to be Avengers and Ultimate Spider-Man...doubt they'll have any shorts like DC Nation does though



I read a press release just now, before I came back to the thread. It was:


*Spoiler*: __ 





> The epic storytelling of Marvel -- full of action, adventure and humor, along with complex, courageous and aspirational characters ? will be introduced to a new generation of kids and families through a dedicated programming block, Marvel Universe, premiering SUNDAY, APRIL 1 on Disney XD. The new series, Ultimate Spider-Man, is written and guided by the most star-studded creative team in Super Hero television history, including some of the most influential names in comic books and pop culture. The programming block will also feature the second season of The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and new short-form series that take viewers behind the scenes to meet the creative teams and explore the many facets of the Marvel Universe.
> 
> "The Disney XD audience will be thrilled by the excitement and energy of the newest Marvel series. Our dedicated block showcases the relatable characters that have sparked the imaginations of so many people, young and old. The Marvel Universe block's new short-form programs are made with our audience in mind, and are designed to further explore the world of Marvel for fans of all ages. From learning how to draw Marvel heroes to seeing the real science behind the heroes? cool gadgets, devoted Marvel fans and new fans alike will find the block to be a great destination," said David Levine, Vice President and General Manager, Disney XD.
> 
> ...





But I'm guessing those aren't really shorts, at least not the kind DC Nation has? That sucks, too, because I was really hoping for some shorts. 

I was going to ask if the Spiderman series would be animated by the same people who made The Spectacular Spiderman because it was familiar looking, and then I read on. I really liked Ben 10's animation, so that's good news. 

AND NO! DRAKE BELL AS PETER PARKER?


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## Banhammer (Apr 1, 2012)

Magik vs Black Widdow

The sorceress supreme of the limbo dimension vs red headed buffy?

Really?

The fuck thought that was a goo-
Oh I see
Loeb
I guess it's because they're both russian
Makes sense


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## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 2, 2012)

Lolwut?

Wouldn't everybody rather see Magik vs. Strange?


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## Banhammer (Apr 2, 2012)

nope, loeb knows best, so instead of an epic showdown, you get russian cat fight.

Why she isn't just ripping natasha's soul off is beyond me
I mean teleport her to limbo or something ffs


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## shit (Apr 2, 2012)

oh god, loeb has a part of this???

I was hoping against hope his involvement would end at sanction


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## Petes12 (Apr 2, 2012)

He's just writing half an issue of that VS tie in


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## shit (Apr 2, 2012)

it's funny they try to sneak him in here and there without anyone noticing

like that sanction issue with spiderman and wolverine on the cover, they nearly completely covered up the word sanction with the characters, no doubt to trick people into buying a loeb comic


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## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 2, 2012)

I'm honestly just genuinely curious how Loeb is going to try to make that work. The level of jobbing necessary to make Widow stand a chance against Magik will be hilarious.

EDIT: Ban, are you sure Loeb is doing Widow vs. Magik? From the cover it looks like him and McGuiness are doing colossus/thing, while Yost does Widow vs. Magic

EDIT part deux:

Just read the preview, Mags vs. IM is going to be so so fun, and I love how the immonen's seem to be channeling nextwave for their portion.


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## LIL_M0 (Apr 2, 2012)

Trade waiting.


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## Banhammer (Apr 2, 2012)

Any widow vs magik is like a spanish bull trying to headbut a small newborn baby

it needs a lot of convincing and it will never end up pretty


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## Comic Book Guy (Apr 2, 2012)

Thank heck for the Internet.


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## Banhammer (Apr 2, 2012)

hell even in spy buisness
Lasst time magik ploted a scheme, she manipulated everyone to the point where she ends up assembling an omega level mutant to wipe out an army of skyfather level gods
What clever thing has natasha done lately?


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## shit (Apr 2, 2012)

maybe widow will have all of shield tech at her disposal or something

like that cool issue where she saved everyone using a time machine and very subtly macking the continuum


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## Banhammer (Apr 2, 2012)

magik's mutant power is space and time travel x)


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## shit (Apr 2, 2012)

she can only travel forward in time, amirite?

she hasn't used it since the olden days I don't think


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## Banhammer (Apr 2, 2012)

Both methinks


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 3, 2012)

shit said:


> it's funny they try to sneak him in here and there without anyone noticing
> 
> like that sanction issue with spiderman and wolverine on the cover, they nearly completely covered up the word sanction with the characters, no doubt to trick people into buying a loeb comic



Do they really need to do that?

I have this idea there's a segment just plain buying his books, and they probably have a nice chat, on the way to a convention, with the segment carrying their Liefeld comics for signing.

I've heard that line isn't especially short.


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## shit (Apr 3, 2012)

*AVENGERS* sanction


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## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Apr 3, 2012)

shit said:


> *AVENGERS* sanction



Cable!!


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## Banhammer (Apr 3, 2012)

naturally this being a loeb comic,spiderman is in black


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## Petes12 (Apr 3, 2012)

I don't get that cover, did he ever wear a black costume in the comic?


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 3, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I don't get that cover, did he ever wear a black costume in the comic?



No and Wolverine wasn't in his X-Force costume either


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## Banhammer (Apr 3, 2012)

ah but you see, this a story about the pain a father goes to for his lost child so naturally everything is darkness


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## Terra Branford (Apr 3, 2012)

I just watched X-Men: The Last Stand. So, are there other characters that actually call Juggernaut dickhead, or...? That also reminds me to ask why they were all dressed in black suits. I thought Logan dressed in yellow and black? xD

As for the comic cover posted above, that's Spiderman, right? Made me think it was Vemon...


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## Petes12 (Apr 3, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> I just watched X-Men: The Last Stand. So, are there other characters that actually call Juggernaut dickhead, or...? That also reminds me to ask why they were all dressed in black suits. I thought Logan dressed in yellow and black? xD
> 
> As for the comic cover posted above, that's Spiderman, right? Made me think it was Vemon...



in the x-men trilogy they all wore those dark uniforms instead of stuff more like their typical costumes. for a while in the comics the x-men had a sort of similar look, in morrison's new x-men, which I actually liked a lot better than what they have now.


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## Terra Branford (Apr 3, 2012)

@Petes12:

Ah. Well, it wasn't that I had a problem with the black suits. In honesty, I like Logan better in the black then the yellow. xD

*I have a Marvel question. I have heard -- just got into comics recently, haven't found the answer yet -- that Marvel and DC are owned by the same person/company, and that's why they can be crossed over sometimes. I googled and googled, and have found nothing. Is it true?*


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## shit (Apr 3, 2012)

no it's not true, and they've only ever crossed over once from what I know


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## Petes12 (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm pretty sure Disney and Time Warner are not owned by the same people.


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## shit (Apr 3, 2012)

maybe the illuminati?


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 4, 2012)

shit said:


> no it's not true, and *they've only ever crossed over **once* from what I know



More than once as there were multiple crossovers for characters before the biiger ones that were Marvel Vs. Dc and JLA/Avengers.

anyways no Terra, Marvel and DC aren't owned by the same person...I think the two companies had a better relationship in the 80's and early 90's than they do now and that would explain the horde of crossover that they did, but when it all comes down to it they have never been owned by the same person


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## Banhammer (Apr 4, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iALzDywhQh4&context=C431774fADvjVQa1PpcFMhqvxsOmCZTX-qTFNHUXGqe8ABlH1XEK0=[/YOUTUBE]

wolverine the menace


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## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 4, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> in the x-men trilogy they all wore those dark uniforms instead of stuff more like their typical costumes. for a while in the comics the x-men had a sort of similar look, in morrison's new x-men, which I actually liked a lot better than what they have now.



Cyclops at least needs to ditch the unitard. But yeah I think with certain exceptions (Colossus, Magneto, Emma, Namor) the new X men look would be a better.


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## Thor (Apr 4, 2012)

New X-Men costumes were boring. They only looked good on Cyke and Jean.


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## Petes12 (Apr 4, 2012)

why is everyone suddenly referring to the x men and avengers as 'warring tribes'?


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## Blinky (Apr 4, 2012)

Because that makes it sound more dramatic/natural


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## Petes12 (Apr 4, 2012)

it makes it sound stupid


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## Parallax (Apr 4, 2012)

I actually agree with Petes on this one


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## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 4, 2012)

Is it "everyone" or just CBR?

But yeah it sounds dumb.


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## Castiel (Apr 4, 2012)

Cap: can we talk about this?  there's a planetary level threat headed here and your grandaughter might be-
Cyclops: FUKKK U BUDDY MUTANTS UBER ALLES BEHOLD OPTIC BLAST
*optic blast*


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## Terra Branford (Apr 4, 2012)

At least now I know the answer to a question that has bothered me for quite some time now. 

@about X-Men again. 

Am I the only one that didn't like Scott Summers? He came off annoying to me, or is the portrayal of him in the movies not accurate to his comic side?


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## Petes12 (Apr 4, 2012)

Parallax said:


> I actually agree with Petes on this one



face it parallax: you ALWAYS agree with me


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## Petes12 (Apr 4, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> At least now I know the answer to a question that has bothered me for quite some time now.
> 
> @about X-Men again.
> 
> Am I the only one that didn't like Scott Summers? He came off annoying to me, or is the portrayal of him in the movies not accurate to his comic side?



the pressures of leading all mutantkind when they're nearly extinct have taken a toll on him. he's desperate to help his people.

Also while it's fairly ambiguous what cap would do with hope, there's a very real threat of the avengers... doing something drastic to stop the phoenix. I mean, what else are they going to do?


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## Parallax (Apr 4, 2012)

I don't always agree

but when you're right you're right.


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## blackhound89 (Apr 4, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> the pressures of leading all mutantkind when they're nearly extinct have taken a toll on him. he's desperate to help his people.
> 
> Also while it's fairly ambiguous what cap would do with hope, there's a very real threat of the avengers... doing something drastic to stop the phoenix. I mean, what else are they going to do?



we also have to think that cyclops talked with Cable , and cable told him that the avengers basically fucked the earth up by not letting hope save the world, he also told cyclops that WHEN the Avengers x xmen war came , cyclops should be ready to take hard choices.Well, since Cable literally came from the future i would guess he knows his stuff, if i were cyclops i would do exactly the same , except that i would knock caps out with a wide optic blast intead of a thin one


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## Banhammer (Apr 4, 2012)

Goddamnit they're going to go cassandra cain on Scott Summers


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## Banhammer (Apr 4, 2012)

I don't blame scott for being angry
Specially once you remember the pre-house of M wanda incident


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## Terra Branford (Apr 4, 2012)

Maybe it was his actor, then, that made me dislike him. Every time I see him, I want to turn the movie off or change the channel.


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## blackhound89 (Apr 4, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> Maybe it was his actor, then, that made me dislike him. Every time I see him, I want to turn the movie off or change the channel.



Yeah, probably , they had to make scott a loser so that wolverine could shine


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## Taleran (Apr 4, 2012)

So I wonder who hosts the villain Poker game during this.


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## Blinky (Apr 4, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> it makes it sound stupid



Well yeah but I was saying what they were going for.


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## Banhammer (Apr 4, 2012)

So pym's an atheist.


okay.



Terra Branford said:


> Maybe it was his actor, then, that made me dislike him. Every time I see him, I want to turn the movie off or change the channel.



I dont understand, I love james Marsden

Yeah he was kind of whimped in that movie, but that's only because Fox had to wank the hell out of wolverine
Most of the Logan's plot lines are actually Scott's


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## Terra Branford (Apr 4, 2012)

Well, maybe it was just how he acted in the movies then. Something throws me off about him in the movies, and in the X-men games I sorta liked playing him (in X-Men *Sega Game Gear* or X-Men: Mutant Apocalypse *loved Gambit more, though*).


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## Petes12 (Apr 4, 2012)

It was pretty normal in the 90s show too, and i guess older comics, for scott to just get this really awful role of being the guy wolverine walks all over, because everyone loved wolverine so damn much.

I think that was also morrison's x-men that changed that about 10 years ago.


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## Taleran (Apr 4, 2012)

The #0 issue as one of the worst comics I have read in the past little while. So on a morbid curiosity I read through #1 in the store and it was heads and shoulder's better. Also it makes the placing of the #0 issue seem even worse by comparison.

Like little things like how people know Phoenix is coming at the start of #0 but not at the start of #1 or the fact that they are seemingly sweeping every Phoenix event that wasn't Claremont/Byrne Uncanny under the rug(I get and don't get it.)

The issue was paced really well, I liked the art a lot. I didn't buy how quickly Steve and Scott got angry at each other. Also I don't know if I can buy that this fight is what lasts all #12 issues I think the title is very misleading due to how fast they hit the ground running with it.

I will pay attention from now on but nothing more than that.


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## LIL_M0 (Apr 4, 2012)

Taleran said:


> The #0 issue as one of the worst comics I have read in the past little while.


This.


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## Petes12 (Apr 4, 2012)

TBH I liked 0 better than 1. It had some amusing jokes.

Meanwhile issue 1 has nothing at all worth reading it for, except for that one double page of the phoenix flying by a planet, which looked nice. But then JRJR starts drawing people and I lose interest

It was just a lot of getting the obvious set up out of the way with some really awkward art.


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## Parallax (Apr 4, 2012)

And petes goes back to being wrong


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## shit (Apr 4, 2012)

you guys are just reading a comic I read two weeks ago (or one?)

suddenly things are opposite


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## Parallax (Apr 4, 2012)

everything has gone topsy turvy


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## Zen-aku (Apr 4, 2012)

ughhh Cyclops


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## shit (Apr 4, 2012)

AGAIN       !!!


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## Petes12 (Apr 4, 2012)

Parallax said:


> And petes goes back to being wrong



Whatever. It's not that I thought 0 was good. It's that I thought 1 was worse. And god I just never want JRJR to draw thor again. And the way he does captain america's little wing things! arrrhghghsdf dfvshbdf


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## typhoon72 (Apr 4, 2012)

#1 was decent, im just glad Nova's back. Too bad its not Richard Rider, but the new costume looks good. The back up was actually very compelling for once. I had no idea that was Immonen's artwork until the credits at the end. At first I thought it was the same artist that's on Batman right now but apparently not. Immonen's art was already some of the best in mainstream but it looks as though he leveled up to heights unknown.


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## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 5, 2012)

AvX 1 was okay, sure, Cyke and Cap's stubbornness is a little odd, but I feel like it's impossible to do this kind of story with everyone being in character anyway.

As long as the plot's bearable, I'm just hear for the OOH AH AH AH AH / Oh no he didn't! moments. See: "I understood completely-EYEBLAST"


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeah that is crazy minor nitpick on my part and probably has been building in god knows how many X-Men comics I haven't read.

It is just like Civil War in that respect.


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

Cap is more in character than scott but he's also more retarded

"hey scott, remember how we've decided we'd stop not giving about each other when we're in  a crisis, and start working together, even though not a single avenger droped by in san francisco when the civilians started pointing guns at you again, and we couldn't spare thor or ms marvel for a couple of minutes to take care of giant death sentinels?
Well, I've talked to that terrorist that keeps going insane and attacking his own team mates and children and he says hope might be unstable so we've decided we're going to come over here primed and ready to  attack if you don't hand over one of your people, while everyone else stays here

Cool?"


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

I swear this will be totally difrent than what we did with wanda or simon or pietro or the hulk


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## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 5, 2012)

Taleran said:


> Yeah that is crazy minor nitpick on my part and probably has been building in god knows how many X-Men comics I haven't read.
> 
> It is just like Civil War in that respect.



The one thing that made it a little okay is that Emma went in and was like "Yeah, he's flat out not leaving without her". 

And when a telepath tells you someone flat out will not compromise on the same thing you will flat out not compromise on, what's the point in trying?

But yeah, Cap having a freaking fully loaded HELICARRIER on standby was kind of hilarious.

Oh, and the "it killed his girl and with it ANY chance of ANY happiness EVER" line from wolverine still pisses me off a lot.


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeah they are ignoring everything that happened between Jean & Scott after Dark Phoenix Saga.


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

Or emma.


Oh well logan is projecting again.

Seriously,sometimes he's like the brian griffin of superheroes


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## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 5, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Or emma.
> 
> 
> Oh well logan is projecting again.
> ...



Yeah, if it wasn't for the general wolverine wank that goes on in marvel I'd think it was intentional, because WOW obvious self projection is obvious.


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

No its not Wolverine, they are doing the story like the only time the Phoenix counted before was in the 80s you can tell it plainly by how the creators have talked about the series and how Jean is drawn in the issue.


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## Scarecrow Red (Apr 5, 2012)

Grant Morrison ignored forever.


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

Dude they have wolverine say this inside the JEAN GREY INSTITUTE FOR HIGHER LEARNING which _he _opened


Even marvel's own youtube chanel parodies this


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

I admit Wolverine isn't over it but it is also Marvel is blatantly ignoring tons of backstory to try and simplify this story and it doesn't help it.


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

They can't have the avengers look like aunuses when their movie is coming out


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## Petes12 (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't know what I'm missing, other than that jean grey did come back and then got killed by magnetonowaititwasxorn. But what else am I missing there?


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I don't know what I'm missing, other than that jean grey did come back and then got killed by magnetonowaititwasxorn. But what else am I missing there?



A whole lot of other characters and stories and retcons that have to do with the Phoenix.

The Summer's family is kinda complex for that regard.


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

she then ressurected, had a dark phoenix episode, got stablized and is now in space retrieving bits and pieces of the phoenix force that has been scattered by the kree


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## Petes12 (Apr 5, 2012)

Taleran said:


> A whole lot of other characters and stories and retcons that have to do with the Phoenix.
> 
> The Summer's family is kinda complex for that regard.



I know there was a lot of retcons and other shit that was, of course, awful, because everything involving the summers family is awful (yes, fuck cable and rachel they should die).

So what I'm asking is, what did I miss that would apparently make this story better somehow? What would AvX have been better off remembering?


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

You really can't it is a very big catch 22 whenever they deal with the Summers family. You lose either way. Realized after the fact much like Kick Ass I was letting my love for Romita Jr cloud the story. This right here does a pretty great job at summing up problems with #1


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

here's the deal
x-men of utopia are a bunch of long term abused people whom have suffered endlessly at the hands of the avenger's failures
They failed wanda, they failed house of m, they've failed genosha, they lead the hulk to their homes and when bastion went full nelson on everyone, the best the super awesome best friends could come up with was banging on a wall with a hammer

They however have the gall to come to them in say, civil war and request their help in return

If you want to vilify the x-men, you can't make them mad fanatics. You got to open that resentment that has festered in every mutant's heart

The x-men are the experts in the phoenix force, the x-men have a record of rehabilitation that puts the avengers to shame, and the x-men have gone through holy hell while you watched

So you know, you don't waltz in, and demand someone for what is essentially their grand daughter


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeah but because that person is Captain America they are still the villains that is what happens when you deal in Marvel comics.

Also that is the whole deal of the X-Men they have always been an incredibly masochistic franchise.


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## Petes12 (Apr 5, 2012)

Like most of the reviews you post taleran that thing is nitpicky bullshit that is also wrong.

Last I checked, Captain America brought a fully armed helicarrier to the debate. That doesn't say peaceful negotiator to me. He wears the flag but it's not like he's got any sort of good track record for ending anything peacefully like an adult


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

It doesn't matter because *Captain America* that is how the Marvel Universe always shakes out. If you are not on the side of Captain America you are the bad guy.

It doesn't make it right but it is always true.


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

no it's pretty correct, you're the always the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) if you shoot at cap AMERICA


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

Hell, remember that time when the tea party went OH MY GOD MARVEL IS MAKING CAPTAIN AMERICA SAYING HE THINK WE ARE RACISTS!


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

Or when steve died during the civil war and everyone made that huge clusterfuck about it?


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## Petes12 (Apr 5, 2012)

I was disappointed when marvel apologized to the teabaggers for that.


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## Petes12 (Apr 5, 2012)

btw did anyone try that infinite comic thing by waid and immonen? I mean, the story was totally pointless and stupid, but the art was really nice and it did show off the sort of cool things they could do moving comics to totally digital


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

What you mean cheap flash animation and sound effects? I had enough at motion comics thank you.


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## Banhammer (Apr 5, 2012)

Even when magneto sideslapped zombie captain america, you were still kind of rooting for someone to chew eric's brains out


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## Petes12 (Apr 5, 2012)

Taleran said:


> What you mean cheap flash animation and sound effects? I had enough at motion comics thank you.



huh? no, it wasn't a motion comic at all.

It just did some things like having 'page turns' add more panels to the layout already there, and not always in a left to right order so you could put a new panel on top of and in between the previous 2, stuff like that.


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

I was assuming it was like the other clicky comic things that Mark Waid has been showing off. Which still is pretty close to motion comics for me.


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## Petes12 (Apr 5, 2012)

I haven't read any other digital things waid's done. But no, there was no shitty flash animation or anything like that. It wasn't anything like any digital comics I've seen, or like normal comics. 

I thought it did a good job of showing what the strengths of that kind of format were.


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

Was it something like this?


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## Petes12 (Apr 5, 2012)

kinda yeah. how do you get motion comic or flash animation from that? I don't see your problem with it, it's a different way of laying out the story progression when you don't have the option of doing a lot of panels or any splash pages


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

I just don't think it is comics anymore because the control of how you view it is taken away from you. It is based on clicks instead of where ever my eye wants to go on the page.

Also you can now only read it as fast as you can click rather than eye speed which is dramatically different.


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## Petes12 (Apr 5, 2012)

But the way the eye is led around the page is a caveat artists have to work with when making comics. It's a limitation more than anything


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## Taleran (Apr 5, 2012)

I disagree the single page as a unit is probably one of the most powerful storytelling tools comics has at its disposal.


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## tari101190 (Apr 5, 2012)

We are still in the experimentation stage, figuring out the best blend between traditional comics and digital motion comics.

The "Luther demo" I think is a good type of motion comic.

The way Marvel do the guiding reading on their site I think is cool too. They still use a full comic page, but guide the camera view overthe page, just like you wouldread it anyway. Plus you have the option of zooming out to read traditionally if you wany anyway.

The have Fear Itself #1 for free to read ontheir site if you want to see what I mean.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 7, 2012)

Been catching up on my reading recently. Nice to see Captain America initiating an illegal invasion of a peaceful sovereign nation to kidnap someone who has yet to actually do anything wrong. I mean, is this an Ultimates crossover or something? 

Also: Tony looks totally blitzed off his ass when it shows his face during that briefing. "Whoa, so that's the control to my facemask? I thought it ordered more Barcardi."


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 7, 2012)

I would actually buy his comics if it turned out the new armor shoots up booze straight into his veins


----------



## shit (Apr 7, 2012)

I would actually buy runaways if

oh wait


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 7, 2012)

I would actually buy Avengers Academy if they tried to boost their popularity by calling in the runaways


----------



## shit (Apr 7, 2012)

I thought they did-

oh I c wut u did


----------



## Terra Branford (Apr 7, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> It was pretty normal in the 90s show too, and i guess older comics, for scott to just get this really awful role of being the guy wolverine walks all over, because everyone loved wolverine so damn much.
> 
> I think that was also morrison's x-men that changed that about 10 years ago.



I was wondering if I was just surrounded by fans or it if it is pretty common to meet so many Logan fans.  All my friends and brothers/sisters really loved Wolverine, but I never liked him. Especially his yellow spandex costume.


----------



## LIL_M0 (Apr 7, 2012)

shit said:


> I would actually buy runaways if
> 
> oh wait



            .


----------



## Scarecrow Red (Apr 8, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> I was wondering if I was just surrounded by fans or it if it is pretty common to meet so many Logan fans.  All my friends and brothers/sisters really loved Wolverine, but I never liked him. Especially his yellow spandex costume.



Even as a kid, I always felt Cyclops was serving the wussy leader role so Logan's anti-authoritarian behavior could be accepted more positively; after all, he was the badass poster guy of Marvel.

I'm glad that Morrison made such change. Not that I really care for Scott, but under Morrison's hand his character sounded more plausible.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 8, 2012)

You have to keep Scott at massimum wussage so you don't have that "wow, this guy is a huge bastard" epiphany normal people get when you realize he has been planting explosives in the home of a hundred children just in case he ever had to blackmail him over the fate of children, or that he would raise a Jean Grey Institute and then give Rogers advice about Summer's marriage.


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 8, 2012)

He Kept the explosives in a safe actually.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 8, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Been catching up on my reading recently. Nice to see Captain America initiating an illegal invasion of a peaceful sovereign nation to kidnap someone who has yet to actually do anything wrong. I mean, is this an Ultimates crossover or something?



Is Dr. Strange involved in this?

He probably has the right mystical waterboarding book for those muties.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 8, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> He Kept the explosives in a safe actually.



Kind of missing the point, aren't you?



Charcan said:


> Is Dr. Strange involved in this?
> 
> He probably has the right mystical waterboarding book for those muties.



Yep.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 8, 2012)

Keeping explosives in a safe inside a building with a mutant whose power is to have a charged static aura

If Surge ever crossed by his room's door, they would have had a major catastrophe, probably blowing out a third of the remaining mutant population in the world


For no reason other than WELP


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 8, 2012)

Not to mention the atleanteans bellow once the backup engines and the explosion shattered the collum support causing Utopia to crash and sink into the remainders of the underwater civilization and their families

All because of WELP


----------



## Blinky (Apr 8, 2012)

Jesus we get it, you don't like Wolverine. Don't tell me this fucking arguement is starting again.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 8, 2012)

I'm sorry


It's the layers. So many layers


----------



## Scarecrow Red (Apr 8, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> You have to keep Scott at massimum wussage so you don't have that "wow, this guy is a huge bastard" epiphany normal people get when you realize he has been planting explosives in the home of a hundred children just in case he ever had to blackmail him over the fate of children, or that he would raise a Jean Grey Institute and then give Rogers advice about Summer's marriage.



This just reminded that one moment in X-Force when Deadpool, of all people, calls Logan out for letting Fantomex shot


*Spoiler*: __ 




Kid Apocalypse




Everything that happens in that scene was just damn funny.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 8, 2012)

pretty sure shooting up genesis is no longer considered a spoiler


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 8, 2012)

I have not read much with Captain America in it, but the few times I have, he's managed to rub me in the wrong way. Is he usually annoying?

There is an obvious potential threat, I can't blame the X-Men for trying to protect Hope from people who are trying take her with no regard to her own will or the mutants'.

Otherwise, I liked the pacing and the build-up. The ending where Scott blasts the Capt. and he calls an entire air ship of Avengers for backup made for a nice cliffhanger.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 8, 2012)

truth is, it's in character for scott to ask Hope what she wants to do first, and then plan accordingly

Him beating her up and kicking her in the ribs is completely retarded and ooc and serves no other purpose then once again, douche him up for the other side's sake


Specially considering his experience in education, and the fact he has a completely equipped danger room at his disposal


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 8, 2012)

Nor is it in character for him not to smile and invite Steve over for tea, nor is it in character for steve not to call first, not is it in character for Hope not to shoot someone in between the eyes every three pannels


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 8, 2012)

Scarecrow Red said:


> This just reminded that one moment in X-Force when Deadpool, of all people, calls Logan out for letting Fantomex shot
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Logan Didn't Let him do any thing, he was saying that they should try and save the kid

Also Deadpool has a long history of defending children


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 8, 2012)

I don't see how the danger room is more humane than personally training hope/beating her up a little.

It was just a convenient way to introduce both characters together at once, and their general attitudes towards each other- scott trying too hard to prepare her, and her chafing under his overprotection


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 9, 2012)

Holy crap AvX is incredibly horrible, Wasn't anything in there that didn't make me go "wuh?". Incredibly bad characterizations and just general stupidity. The pages that didn't suck were just passable AT BEST 

EVERYTHING made me cringe. Even Magneto's Derp face when he says "You're sound like me Scott". Wow Magneto, I didn't know that you had the mutant powers of chameleon eyes

Also why is the helicarrier said to be 1000 feet above Manhatten when Utopia is next to San Francisco?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 9, 2012)

Seriously, it's horrible and if you liked any of it then you are a bad person deep down and your children will have rabies


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 9, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I don't see how the danger room is more humane than personally training hope/beating her up a little.



Danger has security fail safes progress adjustment protocols and is not emotionally attached to her.


----------



## Scarecrow Red (Apr 9, 2012)

Judging the reactions here, I went to see the opinion of other forums and site reviews about AvX.

...Seems like mostly everyone is saying it is "a great beginning to an exciting event" :|


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 9, 2012)

you get banned or shat on in comics foruns if you don't suck it up


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 9, 2012)

Haha. I thought it was ok, I seriously do not understand the complaining about the training scene, nothing about that made me think scott was a 'mean guy '

I thought the art was bleh. And I noticed the helicarrier typo too.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 9, 2012)

But tbh other comic forums will get riled up at the absolute stupidest shit (omg wonder woman's wearing silver?!!?!), and then love the fuck out of things that are mediocre, as long as they have enough nostalgia attached.

Like JRJRs art


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 9, 2012)

So it starts off with a scene of a alien child going to his father for comfort before being utterly annihilated. Because that's hip and will set the scene for something so ground-breaking and shattering! 

Just like in Thanos Imperative where one of the characters actually says something along the lines of "This is a really important battle between universal entities that you should be careful of!". Because DnA are horrible writers now and somehow assumes the readers are the results of many generations of inbreeding like they are. Or in the Watchman movie where they had to flat out state that Comedian is Silk Spectre's dad because it wasn't already obvious enough. So pretty much it's a writer telling us what we should be feeling; "Holy crap guys, the poop has hit the fan! That means it's really bad! Like really! The poop has hit the fan guys! You should all be understanding that it's incredibly important now because of poop and fans!"

Next is a schoolyard verbal fight between Stark and Bendis Nor-Vah (aka emotionless Nor-Vah, aka another character he introduced into mainstream comics that completely sucks, he's very good at that) over something so trivial you'd think teammates for many months wouldn't be arguing about. It then turns into a "I'm telling teacher Captain America on you!". Cool

Thankfully it's broken by Thor yelling out "Avengers Assemble!". You know, the motto that everyone says now and is so damn overused it has completely lost it's meaning in the same way as being an Avenger is special.

Then it goes into a training scene with Scott taking out his bedroom frustrations of not being able to do a screaming eagle with Jean on iJeanv2. This is completely normal, because Hope has been consistently grilled and trained so extensively ever since she got there. She has not been allowed to lead her own super-hero team and wonder freely off the island with no repercussions. Then there is the expected 'zomg fenix?!?!?!' scene just to reaffirm what no-one knew. 

Thankfully all this exhilarating pages is broken by an interlude by Rogers and Stark where they give some exposition to anyone that hasn't been reading comics beyond the past few years. Then a tense scene where Logan and Steve having a man-to-man talk about the upcoming conflict. Dude it's feisty and you know it. 

Truth is, I want to rag on those two scenes more but I literally cannot. Mainly because of the youngins that don't know much about the original X-men (lol)

Finally it gets to the bread and butter. The CONFLICT! Both major characters, Rogers and Summers, lay down their contention in the most passive aggressive way possible because they clearly are people with greatly opposing ideals and have a deep hatred for each other. For something like this, we cannot solve this problem in any form of logical and thought-out manner, there has to be FIGHTS between SUPERHEROES except unlike Civil War, the mutants will be IN! Man how RADICAL is that!??! It's so AWESOME to see GOOD-GUYS FIGHTING OTHER GOOD-GUYS AGAIN! Wow Marvel you are so cool, here's another part of my face that you haven't stepped all over yet! 

But of course Summers will act irrationally, he's "too close to see the bigger picture!". Perfect! That is makes completely perfect sense and does not break any form of characterizations in anyway. Instead of working with our closest allies in a world that hates mutants, I'LL FIGHT THEM INSTEAD. God, I'm such a GENIUS! How brilliant! Xavier must be having a massive wank over how incredible I am!

I think that covers it. I honestly do not own enough phones with dials going to eleven to match this event.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 9, 2012)

i dont see your problem with the phoenix scene, it wasn't really expositiony at all, even though it did serve to give you an idea of the destruction it causes. and it was the only good art in the whole thing. 

it was much better than people standing around going "omg the phoenix is so dangerous u guyz!"


----------



## shit (Apr 9, 2012)

the best piece of shit in a big piece of shit


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 9, 2012)

You're right, it really wasn't bad at all. I was talking purely from my perspective as someone with a long history in Marvel comics. My second paragraph still stands


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 9, 2012)

It confuses me a bit because Jean is supposed to be in space right now, preventing these things from happening.
And why is hope the obvious choice? Rachel Grey and Quentin Quire are standing right there.

It feels forced if you know the phoenix's history


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 9, 2012)

Since last time they met, Steve gave scott a medal, The X-Men have saved San Francisco alone three or four times about now, stopped a vampire holocaust, a brood invasion and the extermination of mankind twice on celestial's hands
Not to mention a couple of civilizations, like those on tabula rasa, atlantis, and the island for liberated artificial intelligence





So an armed helicarrier amused me

Specially the part where magneto doesn't plunge it into the ocean the first milisecond he sees it


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 9, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> It confuses me a bit because Jean is supposed to be in space right now, preventing these things from happening.
> And why is hope the obvious choice? Rachel Grey and Quentin Quire are standing right there.
> 
> It feels forced if you know the phoenix's history



I didn't notice it before Tal pointed it out, but I really think they are ignoring every phoenix centric story post Dark Phoenix Saga.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 9, 2012)

I suppose,since it's the one people who only saw the x-movies would relate to


I really hate quesadillas sometimes


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 9, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> It confuses me a bit because Jean is supposed to be in space right now, preventing these things from happening.
> And why is hope the obvious choice? Rachel Grey and Quentin Quire are standing right there.
> 
> It feels forced if you know the phoenix's history



But rachel is a terrible fucking character who is nothing but convoluted nonsense. 

I keep saying this


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 9, 2012)

Really it's just not a good idea to base a line wide event on one of the most convoluted / retcon heavy things in big 2 comics.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm fine with the way they're handling it unless someone can give me a good reason to give a darn about the rest of the phoenix's history


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 9, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> But rachel is a terrible fucking character who is nothing but convoluted nonsense.
> 
> I keep saying this



I hate parallel time bastards too, but it's not cool to shove them down our throats and then pretend they're not there at the same time


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 9, 2012)

but it is

and besides from day one there's been some connection between hope and jean


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 9, 2012)

I guess my issue is that by ignoring big chunks of Phoenix history, you're also ignoring big chunks of Summers/Grey/X-men history.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 9, 2012)

See this is why I'm ok with it...


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 9, 2012)

It's also ignoring morrison, but then again, so has everyone else


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Apr 9, 2012)

I dunno, I always thought Rachel sounded interesting. She sure as hell isn't as contrived as Jean

I think I'm finally motivated to go and start reading more of Rachel's history in the comics now. I've always heard good things about Excalibur anyway.


----------



## shit (Apr 9, 2012)

excalibur sucks


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 9, 2012)

Tom Brevoort Stating the Obvious



> I know it wasn't intentional, but AvX #1 really made the X-Men look like the bad guys. We see the Avengers being all chummy, saving innocents, working with the President, etc, and we see the X-Men.... watching on as their leader beats up a girl...





Link removed



But at the same time contradicting him self




> I enjoyed seeing the Avengers be the villains in AvX, but wouldn't it have been better to let Iron Man keep his role as the main goverment stooge rather than giving it to Rogers?


Link removed


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 9, 2012)

that second thing was a question someone else asked him


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 9, 2012)

I'll only be reading the last two issues of Avengers vs X-men, but what do you guys think the fallout of the series will be? Partial reboot of the 616verse? Mutants pop up all over the world in force?


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 9, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> I'll only be reading the last two issues of Avengers vs X-men, but what do you guys think the fallout of the series will be? Partial reboot of the 616verse? Mutants pop up all over the world in force?



More Mutants, Hope becomes the host and goes off into space or dies. Nova probably gets an ongoing (witen by Loeb)...it be funny if Iron Fist keeps his Phoenix powerup he's getting. I don't see a reboot coming. it's not Marvel's style


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 9, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> More Mutants, Hope becomes the host and goes off into space or dies. Nova probably gets an ongoing (witen by Loeb)...i*t be funny if Iron Fist keeps his Phoenix powerup he's getting.* I don't see a reboot coming. it's not Marvel's style



Wait, what?

EDIT: Okay, I just saw the NA 25 solicit... bleh.


----------



## Scarecrow Red (Apr 10, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> I don't see a reboot coming. it's not Marvel's style



I don't know, what about that Spider-Man event which was solely made to erase his marriage with MJ out of existence, revive a couple of Spider-Man characters and make everyone forget that Peter is Spider-Man?


----------



## Taleran (Apr 10, 2012)

I realized the only reason I am paying attention to AvX is because it is the first comic project I can think of where the company acknowledges it has five writers and the potential for cataclysm / the wonder if 5 people can create a coherent involving story.


----------



## Narutossss (Apr 10, 2012)

if all they could come up with is more phoenix crap I doubt it.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 10, 2012)

Scarecrow Red said:


> I don't know, what about that Spider-Man event which was solely made to erase his marriage with MJ out of existence, revive a couple of Spider-Man characters and make everyone forget that Peter is Spider-Man?



That's called a story-arc.


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 10, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> if all they could come up with is more phoenix crap I doubt it.



To be fair, the Phoenix has been coming since Hope was born. The X-men overplot has been leading to this for a while now.

And on paper, its probably not a bad idea. Have the two teams get into a fight over idealogical differences over how to deal with the Phoenix. At some point, the Phoenix touches down, they two teams unite to solve the situation. Basic team up plot. Nothing wrong with that.

The execution will probably be crap though. The concept itself is okay.


----------



## Narutossss (Apr 11, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> To be fair, the Phoenix has been coming since Hope was born. The X-men overplot has been leading to this for a while now.
> 
> And on paper, its probably not a bad idea. Have the two teams get into a fight over idealogical differences over how to deal with the Phoenix. At some point, the Phoenix touches down, they two teams unite to solve the situation. Basic team up plot. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> The execution will probably be crap though. The concept itself is okay.


You've got a point but I'm just sick of the phoenix it's everywhere, in the cartoons, comic, movie and even anime, I've had it with phoenix, can't it just fuck off for good. It's been used to death. To be honest I don't really care about AvX I'm just steamed that W&X-men is turning into a tie-in and I know I'm not going to enjoy it... because cyclops is coming into the book. I actually liked not seeing cyclops or jean for that matter in a x-men book.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 11, 2012)

drag queen thor is back


----------



## shit (Apr 12, 2012)

new avengers is more soap opera than action comic


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 13, 2012)

Last month I picked up Carnage: Family Feud. I'm waiting for the Carnage U.S.A. paperback, but since I'm new to actually reading comics, I've been trying to figure out what storylines I should check out. I've narrowed my top three franchises down to Spider-Man, Avengers, and X-Men, all of which have omnibuses, but in terms of "events", the Carnage mini is basically a result of Siege, and from what I gather, Avengers vs. X-Men is basically the latest culmination in the many events that have happened since Avengers Disassembled. Secret Invasion falls in with that series of events, but it's more of a sequel to Annihilation that was foreshadowed since Secret War. Should I just start with Disassembled, or is there a particular storyline that could be considered the catalyst for Secret War and Annihilation?


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Avengers vs X-men #2 preview


They're trying really hard to make Cyclops look bad and justify the Avengers coming to Utopia


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 13, 2012)

I love the reactions of the Avengers.

"He's trying to make us look like bullies. I mean, we did come to his country with our big-ass helicarrier and tell him that he has no choice and that either he gives up Hope unconditionally or we beat his ass. But I mean, that totally doesn't make us bullies at all!"

Civil War Tony has *returned*! Perhaps the Avengers can simply take over Utopia and move all the mutants to "relocation facilities" run by Doctor Octopus or whichever villain is going to be in control of S.H.I.E.L.D. next.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

I know I just read House of M and saw the scene with the Avengers and X-men talking round a table about how to deal with the crisis why can't they do that now it seems like this event is just to make the Avengers look good for their upcoming film while they make the X-men look bad.


----------



## tari101190 (Apr 13, 2012)

Ugh

All of the Avengers' dialogue exclaiming their surprise at the X-Men 'starting' the fight is ridiculous. And having the X-Men behave so volatile is completely forced.

Common sense has officially thrown out the window for the sake of action and promotion.

Also I wish the art was different. I only read/buy Superhero-Espionage-ish comics,  but I read/buy the events in collection to keep 'upto date' and get some sort of traditional superhero stuff to read. The art in avents since Dissembled has always been great I think, but this art is not looking good to me at all.


----------



## shit (Apr 13, 2012)

the worst part actually is this totally contradicts what happened in New Avengers


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 13, 2012)

i liked iron fist's "there are children inside" jab


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 13, 2012)

There are children inside! How can scott attack this fully armed, jet scrambled nuclear powered death fortress that we brought to his doorstep?
I mean an explosion could seriously hurt them!

Wolverine: Yeah, setting up dangerous conditions with children inside, I told you he was crazy


----------



## shit (Apr 13, 2012)

I bet Aaron wrote that scene


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 13, 2012)

"Cap, we should have gone with my plan of discretely putting explosives all over the island and then forcing him to accept our demands by threatening to blow the place up. Allowing him to fight back will only force us to hurt the innocent children that live her once we start carpet-bombing the place."


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 13, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> i liked iron fist's "there are children inside" jab






But yeah, that preview for AvX 2 was babytown frolics. So hilarious.




tari101190 said:


> Also I wish the art was different. I only read/buy Superhero-Espionage-ish comics,  but I read/buy the events in collection to keep 'upto date' and get some sort of traditional superhero stuff to read. The art in avents since Dissembled has always been great I think, but this art is not looking good to me at all.




The art will get much better after...1 more issue? JRJR is just bad.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 13, 2012)

JRJR does the first 4 issues... so 2 more after next week's. 

And then it's coipel


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 13, 2012)

One of the few benefits of double-shipping: If you want an artist gone, it happens twice as fast!

Edit: 





Whip Whirlwind said:


> *
> But yeah, that preview for AvX 2 was babyland antics. So hilarious.*



Is this an Archer reference? If so, it's "babytown frolics".



Get it right.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 13, 2012)

Oh god...the shame, the shame!



Be right back 



Petes12 said:


> JRJR does the first 4 issues... so 2 more after next week's.
> 
> And then it's coipel



Ha what a step up.


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 13, 2012)

If that's an attempt to make the Avengers look good, it isn't a very good one. 

I've been think pretty much the exact same things as Guy the whole time I'm reading this. It comes off more like the Avengers are in the wrong with faint attempts to make their actions look rational.


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

Wolverine: THE BIGGEST TRAITOR IN MUTANT HISTORY!!!

Why'd he tell Cap where da phoenix was heading.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

he's pissed Jean chose Scott


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

Cyclops should have yielded when Captain America wielded his mighty shield.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Cap said he wasn't asking to take away his granddaughter if some said that to me I would have done the same thing. Cable showed Cyclops what happens when the Avengers get there way in X-sanction so I can understand Scott not wanting to hand over Hope


----------



## LIL_M0 (Apr 13, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> JRJR does the first 4 issues... so 2 more after next week's.
> 
> And then it's coipel



Is AvX weekly or bi-weekly? If so I'm glad they aren't trying to stretch this out for 12 months.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

it's bi-weekly but there's another series called avx which shows the fights in more detail


----------



## LIL_M0 (Apr 13, 2012)

Oh, cool.


----------



## LIL_M0 (Apr 13, 2012)

Wait... I don't have to read Loeb's Cable mini to get a total understanding of AvX, right?


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

no you don't have to get it.AVX just to shows the fights that may not be seen in the main event book


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> Cap said he wasn't asking to take away his granddaughter if some said that to me I would have done the same thing. Cable showed Cyclops what happens when the Avengers get there way in X-sanction so I can understand Scott not wanting to hand over Hope



It was a joke

[YOUTUBE]BpufNT8I-SU[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 13, 2012)

LIL_M0 said:


> Wait... I don't have to read Loeb's Cable mini to get a total understanding of AvX, right?



no it was of course totally pointless


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 13, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Cyclops should have yielded when Captain America wielded his mighty shield.



Ha, I see what you did here


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

By attacking the Captain, Cyclops attacks America itself.

Cyclops is an anti American commie nazi terrorist rebel red coat


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

AVENGERS VS X-MEN #7 (OF 12) AVX

(W) Jonathan Hickman (A) Olivier Coipel (CA) Jim Cheung

Cyclops changes the game with these three words: “No More Avengers!”

yeah Cyclops unleash the void and apocalypse on the avengers


----------



## Parallax (Apr 13, 2012)

way to make the X-Men villains Marvel


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

everyone should have known this was coming this event is to promote the Avengers. the avengers are in the wrong Cable showed Scott what happens to the planet when he lets the Avengers take Hope away the phoenix destroys the planet anyway but most people who are saying Cyclops is wrong choose to forget this


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 13, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> But tbh other comic forums will get riled up at the absolute stupidest shit (omg wonder woman's wearing silver?!!?!), and then love the fuck out of things that are mediocre, as long as they have enough nostalgia attached.
> 
> Like JRJRs art



Dinosaurs and philistines.



Petes12 said:


> that second thing was a question someone else asked him



Formspring, how does it work?!?



Banhammer said:


> drag queen thor is back



Is that better or worse than Coipel's shit brickhouse Lion-o Thor?



Petes12 said:


> JRJR does the first 4 issues... so 2 more after next week's.
> 
> And then it's coipel



Then again, Coipel's involvement raises my interest level in general for whatever he's working on.


----------



## hehey (Apr 13, 2012)

lol at those July solicits.

Mystery Woman fight Thor is obviously Emma Frost all Phoenix upped..... i bet she dies at the end of this like in the Wolverine and The X-Men cartoon.

Namor invades a country?, how many X-Men will the Avengers put in prison by the end of this event?


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

phoenix is probably going to get together with scott just like always. yeah i've seen a close up it looks like emma so what is the fuss about hope all about


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 13, 2012)

Read Fantastic Four

Hickman is going fucking Toy Story 3 on my ass


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 13, 2012)

It's actually going to make it hard for me to enjoy the movie if I have to keep making an effort not to think about the douchevengers.


Good thing it comes out in ten days


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 13, 2012)

Worse part of it all?

Storm was right there. Right there.
Former leader of the X-men and an actual Utopian resident.
Just invited to be an avenger.

Is it because she's black captain? We do get it, you were raised in the forties after all


----------



## shit (Apr 13, 2012)

in new avengers she storms out of the room when they're explaining what they're going to do

she probably told the xmen what's coming? maybe that's why cyclops was grilling hope so hard

oh wait I forgot that new avengers already had content that was downright contradicted


----------



## Parallax (Apr 13, 2012)

your first mistake was reading tie ins


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

here's another contradiction in Avengers vs X-men Cap says he wants to take Hope into custody. In The New Avengers he wants to send her into space


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

This event is a lot like World War Hulk. That is why they bought John Romita Junior.

Its all about the fights. I personally can't wait to see Namor vs Ben Grimm.

Just turn off brain and enjoy the carnage.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Ben grimm is going to get his ass handed to him he's dumb enough to fight namor on his own territory


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

Aunt petunia's blushing blue-eyed nephew doesn't need to be smart, he beat Namor once and he can do it again. Although Namor has beaten him like 12 different times


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 13, 2012)

And they already start out underwater


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> And they already start out underwater



Believe in Ben Grimm, he is too dumb and ugly to give up.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 13, 2012)

"To be king of atlantis, it takes more than perfect aesthetics!"


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 13, 2012)

wasn't namor like an enemy to the entire fantastic four team


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> wasn't namor like an enemy to the entire fantastic four team



yeah he even waged war on the surface world but now him and Magneto are cyclop's followers


----------



## Blinky (Apr 13, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> wasn't namor like an enemy to the entire fantastic four team



Except for Susan. He wants to hit that.


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

Yes, he was. Always kidnapping Sue.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 13, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> wasn't namor like an enemy to the entire fantastic four team



and the original Human Torch as well....Namor launching an attack on the surface world and kidnapping women was like tuesday for him a while back


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 13, 2012)

yeah now he is going to attack Wakanda and steal some of there women he just can't help himself


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

The one an only time where Ben defeated Namor. Namor was lucky to have been saved by a bolt of lightning



BEST MOMENT EVER!!!

Ben usually loses every other encounter


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 13, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> The one an only time where Ben defeated Namor. Namor was lucky to have been saved by a bolt of lightning
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All right show me who did that. because that's way to bizarre to be a coincidence


----------



## Glued (Apr 13, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> All right show me who did that. because that's way to bizarre to be a coincidence



Fantastic Four #9. don't have the copy myself.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 14, 2012)

I have that comic, but not where I am right now. 



Emperor Joker said:


> All right show me who did that. because that's way to bizarre to be a coincidence



I think I've seen an old Batman comic where a villain dying like that *was* a coincidence...


----------



## LIL_M0 (Apr 14, 2012)

I finally read AvX round 1, it was kinda neat


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 15, 2012)

lil mo, you're like the koolaid man of opinions


----------



## LIL_M0 (Apr 15, 2012)

Ohhhh Yeaaaah!


----------



## LIL_M0 (Apr 15, 2012)

Which issue did they reboot Vision lad so that he returned to his boring adult self?


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 15, 2012)

in avengers iron man randomly has fixed him suddenly

in children's crusade iron lad destroyed vision lad which was the best part of the series.


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 15, 2012)

They rebooted the Vision? What was his reaction to Wanda?(If he's met her, that is)


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 15, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> They rebooted the Vision? What was his reaction to Wanda?(If he's met her, that is)



He bitched her out and then started crying


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 15, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> He bitched her out and then started crying




Well, at least they were consistent going from emo teenage Vision to emo adult Vision.


----------



## LIL_M0 (Apr 15, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> in avengers iron man randomly has fixed him suddenly.



Was this in issue 24.1? It has Vision on the cover.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 15, 2012)

LIL_M0 said:


> Was this in issue 24.1? It has Vision on the cover.



Few issues before that actually it was the issue right after Fear Itself ended I think


----------



## LIL_M0 (Apr 15, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Few issues before that actually it was the issue right after Fear Itself ended I think


Oh okay. Thanks.


----------



## shit (Apr 15, 2012)

there's no point in reading the ish

tony's just like "oh hey, I fixed vision"

everyone else is like "oh cool"

and that's it


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 15, 2012)

Yeah, I remember bitching about that

But it made a little more sense after crusade ended.

Needs more Carol Danvers being a stupid bitch and forcing incredibly traumating emotional situations on already very psicologically unbalanced people


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 15, 2012)

When did having serious asperger become a super hero requirement?
I don't know, but I'm begin to learn to love it


----------



## shit (Apr 15, 2012)

vision vs magneto was pretty hilarious


----------



## Glued (Apr 15, 2012)

Iron Man vs Magneto.

Iron Man is so going to win this with Avengers  hype.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 15, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Yeah, I remember bitching about that
> 
> But it made a little more sense after crusade ended.
> 
> Needs more Carol Danvers being a stupid bitch and forcing incredibly traumating emotional situations on already very psicologically unbalanced people



she can't be blamed for vision being a bastard


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 16, 2012)

So nobody cares about new Hawkeye series?


----------



## shit (Apr 16, 2012)

about as much as we do the new gambit series


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 16, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> So nobody cares about new Hawkeye series?



I do. I'll pick up the first issue and see if I like it...Fraction's writing it right?


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 16, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> she can't be blamed for vision being a bastard



yeah, but it was completely avoidable.

Wanda was "please no, I feel horrible, please, I'm really not ready yet, I'm very fragile right now"

And carol was borderline "nonsense bitch, come on over and say hello to your dead robot hubby. We won't even call ahead, it'll be fun"


----------



## Kanali (Apr 16, 2012)

Besides, considering everything Scarlet Witch did to them Vision's reaction was pretty understandable


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 16, 2012)

I know, I'm not talking about those two and the natural shitstorm between them, I liked that, I'm just laughing my fat ass off because of Danvers


----------



## Blinky (Apr 16, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> So nobody cares about new Hawkeye series?



David Aja is on art so I'll try it anyways.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 16, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> I do. I'll pick up the first issue and see if I like it...Fraction's writing it right?



Yup, Fraction/Aja.

I'm pretty excited for it. Originally it was just for the art, but im curious what Fraction'll do with it. Making Kate a co star certainly isn't a bad first step.


----------



## tari101190 (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm definately gonna read Hawkeye. 

Hawkeye has interested me for a whiole, so glad he has his own book now plus he's on Seceret Avengers too now.

Also apparently Kate Bishop is in the series too which should be very interesting.

Glad David Aja is on the book too.


----------



## shit (Apr 16, 2012)

who the hell is kate bishop?


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 16, 2012)

shit said:


> who the hell is kate bishop?



the Hawkeye from Young Avengers


----------



## shit (Apr 16, 2012)

ohhh that's pretty coo


----------



## Parallax (Apr 16, 2012)

I'll read it

at the very least for Aja


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 16, 2012)

I dunno, I keep holding out hope that Fraction will get awesome. Like he's just recovering from how bad fear itself was.

Now I figure if he can't bring it with aja then he should probably just stop writing anything not casanova.


----------



## shit (Apr 17, 2012)

newest wolverine is pretty neat


----------



## Glued (Apr 17, 2012)

Its grimm vs Namor tomorrow.

"ITS CLOBBERIN TIME"


----------



## tari101190 (Apr 18, 2012)

Just noticed the art in AvsX is better than in Avengers vs X-Men. Plus it's just fights. I am considering just getting that. I buy thee events, but besides events I don't read 'mainstream' books. 



> I dunno, I keep holding out hope that Fraction will get awesome. Like he's just recovering from how bad fear itself was.I feel like people should not judge Matt Fraction for Fear Itself too harshly.



When it comes too team or solo books, he made it all up and wrote it himself, had freedom for the most part and just had to get permission from Marvel for a few things.

But for events doessn't Marvel makes up the story and just gets him to write it? Meaning I doubt he really made up what happened or had much control for the most part. He had to write to certain specifications.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 18, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> Just noticed the art in AvsX is better than in Avengers vs X-Men. Plus it's just fights. Plus it's just fights. I am considering just getting that. I buy thee events, but besides events I don't read 'mainstream' books.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Apr 18, 2012)

The AvsX war is really all out!


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 18, 2012)

oh god why aaron whyyyyy

why would you do that with narration boxes


----------



## shit (Apr 18, 2012)

I was making stacks of recent comics to put on my bookshelf to easily read back on series
I put hickman and remender in the same stack
bendis and brubaker
parker and slott
rucka, waid, kirkman, and david
but the biggest stack was aaron and fraction
this made me realize I've been giving those two guys wayyyy too much credit


----------



## Parallax (Apr 18, 2012)

Aaron wrote Scalped

he will never be given too much credit for that.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 18, 2012)

Parallax said:


> Aaron wrote Scalped
> 
> he will never be given too much credit for that.



He also wrote Friday the 13th: How I Spent My Summer Vacation.

Surprised me a little.


----------



## Blitzomaru (Apr 19, 2012)

Am I the only one who is scratching his head at Cyclops' logic?  The phoenix force is on its way to the planet. The Avengers want to evacuate the most likely host off planet so it doesn't get burned to a crisp. But 'NOMUTANTMESSIAHFENIXISGOOD!'... Even though the phoenix force doesn't have that good of a track record with his dead wife being a prime example. So he's putting the future of the entire world at risk for 1 person. Who they were gonna evacuate, not kill. Granted, Logan was about to kill her but thats cause he's logan... And last I checked, Storm was WITH the Avengers before this fight started. How did she get to Utopia and on the X-Men's side? Guess her Avengers stint will be shorter than we thought....

Also, the art in Avengers 25 was horrid. It looked like a comic drawn in the 70's.... People just posing in the air while fights rage on RIGHT NEXT TO THEM...


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 19, 2012)

what's stopping the phoenix from destroying the planet anyway it's already destroying planets on it's way to earth. Do you want to piss off the potential host of the phoenix by taking her away from the people she cares about. The phoenix can be controlled Rachel Summers did it and Jean did it until the hell fire club and mastermind messed things up


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

^ humanity wasn't an evolutionary dead end when that happened.



Blitzomaru said:


> Am I the only one who is scratching his head at Cyclops' logic?  The phoenix force is on its way to the planet. The Avengers want to evacuate the most likely host off planet so it doesn't get burned to a crisp. But 'NOMUTANTMESSIAHFENIXISGOOD!'... Even though the phoenix force doesn't have that good of a track record with his dead wife being a prime example. So he's putting the future of the entire world at risk for 1 person. Who they were gonna evacuate, not kill. Granted, Logan was about to kill her but thats cause he's logan


 In logan's Defense, he walks into the room and sees this



Her friends fried, ranting about the power, cloaked in the flame of nightmares, Shit appears to have hit the fan ,my first reaction would be to put her down too



> ... And last I checked, Storm was WITH the Avengers before this fight started. How did she get to Utopia and on the X-Men's side? Guess her Avengers stint will be shorter than we thought...


. New Avengers.



> Also, the art in Avengers 25 was horrid.


 Daniel acuna is terrible, but some people think hes just the shit for some odd sad reason

Story wise though all the AVX tie ins have been  100 % awesome


----------



## Kanali (Apr 19, 2012)

Scott is desperate to rejuvenate the mutant race, he's probably willing to take the risk. Besides the Phoenix has been burning planets on its way to its host already, if they took Hope off world the only thing that could possibly happen is that the Phoenix reaches her, destroys everyone nearby and Hope is suddenly alone with the Phoenix force with no one to teach her how to control it


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Apr 19, 2012)

Kanali said:


> Scott is desperate to rejuvenate the mutant race, he's probably willing to take the risk. Besides the Phoenix has been burning planets on its way to its host already, if they took Hope off world the only thing that could possibly happen is that the Phoenix reaches her, destroys everyone nearby and Hope is suddenly alone with the Phoenix force with no one to teach her how to control it



Scott is a scumbag


----------



## Nightblade (Apr 19, 2012)

> Her friends fried, ranting about the power, cloaked in the flame of nightmares, Shit appears to have hit the fan ,my first reaction would be to put her down too


nah only Wolverine got burnt to a crisp. the others just got KO'd.

if one of those kids got burnt, might be Cyclops would realize his folly.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 19, 2012)




----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Apr 19, 2012)

And he's Hope grandfather!!


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 19, 2012)

not related by blood plus yes he is a douchebag in some cases but Miss James Howlett and miss Hank Mcoy are even bigger douchebags


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Apr 19, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> not related by blood plus yes he is a douchebag in some cases but Miss James Howlett and miss Hank Mcoy are even bigger douchebags


They have a school to run!!


----------



## shit (Apr 19, 2012)

henry not hank

let's not try to fuse beast and pym into some sort of super douche


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm talking about beast slating cyclops for restarting the x-force . then he leaves to join the secret avengers and kills people for the greater good but when cyclops did it it was wrong.


----------



## Kanali (Apr 19, 2012)

This. Besides, I recall Beast being willing to risk the entire Universe in order to undo Wanda's spell and save the mutants, yet taking a chance on the Phoenix force and the girl that has already restarted mutant births is too risky.

Honestly, I felt Wolverines reasons for breaking off and forming the school were kinda weak. He's always been willing to take risks and do what ever it takes to keep everyone safe, yet suddenly he's worried about the children who've proven themselves able and willing to do what it takes over and over again.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 19, 2012)

exactly it's like cyclops is wrong when he does something that is morally wrong for the greater good he's a douche when Wolverine or Beast do it they're in the right and are badass


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Daniel acuna is terrible, but some people think hes just the shit for some odd sad reason
> 
> Story wise though all the AVX tie ins have been  100 % awesome



Acuna's art is cool... pretty sure he meant simonson lol


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 19, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> So nobody cares about new Hawkeye series?



i'm interested even though hawkeye is relatively stupid


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 19, 2012)

Hawkeye may be good or bad. I just hope the story is good and spider woman doesn't appear in the series


----------



## Kanali (Apr 19, 2012)

Im more interested in the new Gambit series. I like taking him back to his roots, he's been way too pussified lately. I also hope they deal with the reemergence of his Death personality.


----------



## shit (Apr 19, 2012)

how do you not like acuna?

go back to your saturday morning cartoons


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 19, 2012)

Kanali said:


> Im more interested in the new Gambit series. I like taking him back to his roots, he's been way too pussified lately. I also hope they deal with the reemergence of his Death personality.



They aren't, and I'm okay with that. If they can showcase being a thief in the marvel U the same way Winter Soldier showcases being a spy in the marvel U (and how it's so much awesomer than being a thief/spy in reality) then I'm on board.


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

sanx021 said:
			
		

> I'm talking about beast slating cyclops for restarting the x-force . then he leaves to join the secret avengers and kills people for the greater good but when cyclops did it it was wrong.


 he didn't leave because Scott started X-force, he left because Scott lied about it and took actions that would knowingly get him tortured.



Kanali said:


> Honestly, I felt Wolverines reasons for breaking off and forming the school were kinda weak. He's always been willing to take risks and do what ever it takes to keep everyone safe, yet suddenly he's worried about the children who've proven themselves able and willing to do what it takes over and over again.


 Wolverine Is willing to do what needs to be done, he is willing to kill but he feels the children shouldn't have to if there are other choices, scott has put those kids in danger thousands of times,an under scoots leadership the pille of children corpse has reached the sky, kids shouldn't have to do what it takes, was his argument, they should be able to live normal lives



Nightblade said:


> nah only Wolverine got burnt to a crisp. the others just got KO'd.
> 
> if one of those kids got burnt, might be Cyclops would realize his folly.


 look at the pic i poseted they are quite clearly smoking

Also this a post for CBR deconstructing Scottts actions for those  desperately trying to defend him, and its  written by a cyclops fan no less



> He outright states the reason he wants to let the Phoenix get to Hope is "Power." Mind you, this is in the same issue he's committing criminal assault against a minor during her so-called "training" which clearly looks more like abuse to get a reaction out of her.
> 
> He argues that they were "young and foolish" before when they dealt with the Phoenix, indicating that he knows its dangerous and they made bad decisions...Namor rightfully points out that they're still young & foolish. Cyke ignores this and soldiers on after rationalizing that the Phoenix "must" be coming back to them for a "reason". Uh...no Scott. You guys are not that special...you just hang out with high-level telepaths. Get off it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kanali (Apr 19, 2012)

Its understandable that Cykes has gone over the top in his defense of the mutants considering the fact that there are less than 200 of them left. They can't afford to play nice for the children. I much prefer his new take charge and slightly over the top attitude as opposed to the pretty much worthless jerk he's been portrayed as before.

Wolverine didn't even try to get Scott to implement a change he just threatened him and then threw a hissy fit and proceeded to divide the mutants which like so many have said made them a hell of a lot more vulnerable. The Jean Grey institute hasn't been open all that long and is already pretty much attacked on a daily basis. That combined with the fact that Wolverine is pig headed enough to actively refuse any help from anyone on Utopia despite the fact that both his own schools as well as Utopias security and people has been threatened by people targeting him or the school just makes Wolverine come off as an asshole who's doing this to spite Scott as opposed to save the children. 

Thats what I can't stand the most about Wolverine right now, he's done shit that makes what Cyclops does look like nothing, he's got close to what, 200 years of experience? Yet he continues to make bad decisions out of what can only be interpreted as spite and claims moral superiority.

Thats not even mentioning Beast who seems to have made it his job to shove his moral superiority in Cyclops face despite the fact that he desecrated corpses, worked with a known war criminal monster, sought to work with other known villains and was willing to risk the very universe itself to save the mutant race.


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Kanali said:


> Its understandable that Cykes has gone over the top in his defense of the mutants considering the fact that there are less than 200 of them left. They can't afford to play nice for the children..


 then they might as well role over and give up


> Wolverine didn't even try to get Scott to implement a change he just threatened him and then threw a hissy fit and proceeded to divide the mutants which like so many have said made them a hell of a lot more vulnerable.


he decided to force the issue in a situation that rightly should of gotten the kids killed, he tried talking to scott, and when scott wouldn't listen he took the option off the table, once again it was scott that started the actual fight [hilariously when he lost his temper after a petty insult boomeranged on him]



> The Jean Grey institute hasn't been open all that long and is already pretty much attacked on a daily basis. That combined with the fact that Wolverine is pig headed enough to actively refuse any help from anyone on Utopia despite the fact that both his own schools as well as Utopias security and people has been threatened by people targeting him or the school just makes Wolverine come off as an asshole who's doing this to spite Scott as opposed to save the children.


 when has any one from utopia offered them help aside from the kids, which he refused cause accepting their help would undermine the whole point why he and so many other left, also yes  the JGI has been attacked, mutants will always be attacked, but giving into fear and and turning them selves into what scott has made them [the brotherhood] is not an ok stance for many people





> Thats not even mentioning Beast who seems to have made it his job to shove his moral superiority in Cyclops face despite the fact that he desecrated corpses, worked with a known war criminal monster, sought to work with other known villains and was willing to risk the very universe itself to save the mutant race.


yess he did, Beast explored some dark options, unlike scott, Hank saw the path those options lead to, the prices he'd have to pay, and the risks he'd have to take and he promptly got off that crazy train


----------



## Kanali (Apr 19, 2012)

Still, Logan could have pressed the issue further as opposed to taking it off the table when he didn't get his way the first time. I'll concede that the fight was a display of extreme stupidity by both parties but especially Cyclops.

Cyclops has offered numerous times to bridge the gap between them. Some of Wolverine's own people [Rogue] even begged him to ask them for help when Exodus came (and Im sure the Utopians wouldn't stand idly by out of spite) yet Logan refused. And Cyclops X-Men are a long way from the Brotherhood. The Brotherhood advocated mutant supremacy and repeatedly attacked and killed humans. Cyclops X-Men are trying to survive and even took to super-heroics to protect the general populace, mutant or not.

Scott isn't that far gone, he could get off the not-yet-so-crazy train. Other than trying to make the younglings fighters (which they've already been for quite some time) and sanctioning X-Force he hasn't done anything all that terrible afaik (though please feel free to correct me if Im wrong).


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 19, 2012)

So terrible


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 19, 2012)

The horribly shitty writting is making the oposite of what is meant to do

Loathe the avengers


And those terrible narration boxes




Luke Cage is going to give namor a fight? Seriously? God bendis, settle that street boner of yours down


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 19, 2012)

that issue was written by aaron you know, but yeah they've really powered him up.

but for real, everyone slating issues 0 and 1... 2 was so much worse, legitimately terrible


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Luke Cage is going to give namor a fight? Seriously? God bendis, settle that street boner of yours down



1. Arron Wrote this issue

2. Its gonna be Cage and Grimm



Kanali said:


> Still, Logan could have pressed the issue further as opposed to taking it off the table when he didn't get his way the first time. I'll concede that the fight was a display of extreme stupidity by both parties but especially Cyclops.


 and both had valid points as well



> Cyclops has offered numerous times to bridge the gap between them. Some of Wolverine's own people [Rogue] even begged him to ask them for help when Exodus came (and Im sure the Utopians wouldn't stand idly by out of spite) yet Logan refused.


 Don't Take that out of contexts, Logan's team made the mess with Exodus and were trying to clean it up on their own, if they wanted to be spitefull they should of  just went "hey lets let the might extinction team handle this" and done nothing ,which ironically probably would of worked out better then it did. Rouges actions ended up undermining the entire point of their faction



> And Cyclops X-Men are a long way from the Brotherhood. The Brotherhood advocated mutant supremacy and repeatedly attacked and killed humans. Cyclops X-Men are trying to survive and even took to super-heroics to protect the general populace, mutant or not.
> 
> Scott isn't that far gone, he could get off the not-yet-so-crazy train. Other than trying to make the younglings fighters (which they've already been for quite some time) and sanctioning X-Force he hasn't done anything all that terrible afaik (though please feel free to correct me if Im wrong).


 Threatening to murder a government official knowingly offering up a long time friend to a Demon, Scott's Actions During Children's Crusade, though in all fairness everyone's characterization is shit in that, so best to ignore it.

i haven't read uncanny but apparently Scott dose some thing to already shake Cap's faith in his priority's in that.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 19, 2012)

I love how so many people are arguing over whether Cap or Cyke is more of a douche in AvX. I don't really see the point. Imo both characters are being horribly written in order to suit this wacky premise.

It's weird, with civil war I was kinda pissed that Tony Stark was written as a fascist, and I'm not even a huge Iron Man fan. Cyke is easily in my top 3 x-men, maybe even my favorite, but I just don't care here because I can't take any of it seriously.


----------



## Kanali (Apr 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> i haven't read uncanny but apparently Scott dose some thing to already shake Cap's faith in his priority's in that.



I think what you're referring to is 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Scott and the Extinction team bailing on a battle they were fighting with the Avengers to go save Hope. Cap makes the argument that they've got other teams to take care of that, Scott says none on the Extinction Teams level and goes to save Hope. In the end they manage to save Hope, the Avengers handily defeat the monster and Cap says that this showed the X-Mens priorities. Some of the X-Men want to argue but Scott tells them to drop at and they go home. 

Hell, the Avengers would probably have bailed on the X-Men in what was a pretty routine situation to save one of their own.


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Kanali said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't Believe that, especially not with cap leading the team



> I love how so many people are arguing over whether Cap or Cyke is more of a douche in AvX. I don't really see the point. Imo both characters are being horribly written in order to suit this wacky premise.


 i don't see how any of this so far has been out of character for ether of them


----------



## Kanali (Apr 19, 2012)

Why wouldn't they, if the life of one of their own hung in the balance and there was another superteam ready and available to handle the problem?


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Kanali said:


> Why wouldn't they, if the life of one of their own hung in the balance and there was another superteam ready and available to handle the problem?



Because their earth's mightiest heroes, and put that before any thing else

Case and point they didn't drop every thing when luke ran off during hammer war


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 19, 2012)

Really, you don't think the "sentinel of liberty" coming up and demanding cyke turn over hope with a shield helicarrier full of avengers at his back is out of character?  

Or how about, when cyke says his piece about rebirth, and cap is like "yeah okay buddy *cue twirling finger around ear*", why not mention the phoenix totally and utterly curing cable of a disease that was pretty much totally uncurable?

Just the fact that this went immediately to fighting and that there wasn't ANY degree of negotiation or compromise between either party is ridiculous to me. Well admittedly it's not so left field coming from Cyclops, but Cap just outright demanding things with an army at his back seems off to me. 

And the whole "he asked out of respect" thing is laughable. If you really respect someone you value their opinions and consider them, you don't just ask hoping they say yes.

And the whole "protective custody" thing, why wouldn't cyke just say that the phoenix will find her one way or another, and that all it would do is result in phoenix destroying earth THEN going wherever hope is and destroying that. 

Just the fact that there was no discussion about this at all, and that Cap took Wolverine's (who's opinion isn't biased AT ALL when it comes to jean/scott/phoenix) opinion of the situation as fact without even considering anything that cyclops actually said.

Cap shouldn't be such a douche, and Cyke shouldn't be so stupid (granted, he totally should be a douche).


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## Kanali (Apr 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Because their earth's mightiest heroes, and put that before any thing else
> 
> Case and point they didn't drop every thing when luke ran off during hammer war



Except that Luke is extremely durable, experienced and strong while Hope is physically fragile, and at the time powerless (no nearby mutants to borrow powers from).


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## Scarecrow Red (Apr 19, 2012)

This should be Avengers and X-Men vs. Lazy Writers.

Marvel's most powerful teams join forces to battle a race of Snorlax-like beings that want to plunge them in really awful and mediocre storylines.

I would buy the issues if the event was about that.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Unrelated bit of continuity 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Logan was keeping a promise






Whip Whirlwind said:


> Really, you don't think the "sentinel of liberty" coming up and demanding cyke turn over hope with a shield helicarrier full of avengers at his back is out of character?


 no because he tried to negotiate, and be respectful before hand




> And the whole "he asked out of respect" thing is laughable. If you really respect someone you value their opinions and consider them, you don't just ask hoping they say yes.


see i disagree, you come to them hoping you wont have to do what you have ,to hoping they will do the right thing on there own. its like an Intervention where the Ending result is gonna be rehab one way or another



> And the whole "protective custody" thing, why wouldn't cyke just say that the phoenix will find her one way or another, and that all it would do is result in phoenix destroying earth THEN going wherever hope is and destroying that.


 if they take her off earth then it wont come to earth



> Just the fact that there was no discussion about this at all, and that Cap took Wolverine's (who's opinion isn't biased AT ALL when it comes to jean/scott/phoenix) opinion of the situation as fact without even considering anything that cyclops actually said.


 he talked to beast. He did consider it, he just feels hes to close, and that he will put mutants before earth , which scoots actions show he is justified in thinking


> Cap shouldn't be such a douche, and Cyke shouldn't be so stupid (granted, he totally should be a douche).


 while i agree Cyke is being a dumb ass here, i don't find cap a Douche in the least, Preparing for the worst doesn't make you a bad guy

say Cap Didn't bring the avengers, Scott still would of shot him, Steve would have gone to get them any way, or worse scott has one of his pet telepaths mind fuck him to make his situation easier


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## Banhammer (Apr 19, 2012)

Blitzomaru said:


> Am I the only one who is scratching his head at Cyclops' logic?


Writers logic. Big difrence


> The phoenix force is on its way to the planet. The Avengers want to evacuate the most likely host off planet so it doesn't get burned to a crisp.


Which is kind of a moral abomination you know.
Ever heard of the term "scapegoat"


> But 'NOMUTANTMESSIAHFENIXISGOOD!'


Strawman
Even though it's one endorsed by very shitty writting



> ... Even though the phoenix force doesn't have that good of a track record with his dead wife being a prime example.


Phoenix Force brough Jean Grey back to him. Yes, it brought a lot of wreckage, but it also brough much more salvation.
The force is an essential part of nature. And jean died not because of the phoenix but because of those who would abuse her or kill jean


> So he's putting the future of the entire world at risk for 1 person.


Not one person. His entire race whom he's been on the verge of violent violent death and persecution his whole life.


> Who they were gonna evacuate, not kill.


Like they "evacuated" the hulk? Or Wanda? Or Janet?



> Granted, Logan was about to kill her but thats cause he's logan...


Yeah he's a violent luncatic who deserves to be evacuated to a safe in the bottom of the mariana's trench

And he was also cap's first call

You can tell what scott should read from that



> And last I checked, Storm was WITH the Avengers before this fight started. How did she get to Utopia and on the X-Men's side? Guess her Avengers stint will be shorter than we thought....


She's right though


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## Banhammer (Apr 19, 2012)

Also when someone sets a trap to the messiah of mutant kind so high class the director of s.w.o.r.d. says "drop everything and GO" you drop everything and you go


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## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> no because he tried to negotiate, and be respectful before hand



Where did he negotiate? Negotiation isn't asking for things and then taking them by force when you're told no. 



> see i disagree, you come to them hoping you wont have to do what you have ,to hoping they will do the right thing on there own. its like an Intervention where the Ending result is gonna be rehab one way or another



Lol an intervention is not a negotiation, at all. By definition a negotiation requires compromise and/or mutual understanding.

The minute you you adopt the stance of "I'm getting what I want, you don't have a say in the matter" you are no longer negotiating.



> if they take her off earth then it wont come to earth



Didn't the phoenix just casually destroy a bunch of planets on its way to earth? I mean I guess you could lead it away, but I'm guessing nothing's faster than the phoenix, so either way the phoenix gets what it wants. 



> he talked to beast. He did consider it, he just feels hes to close, and that he will put mutants before earth , which scoots actions show he is justified in thinking
> while i agree Cyke is being a dumb ass here, i don't find cap a Douche in the least, Preparing for the worst doesn't make you a bad guy



Cyke isn't putting mutants before earth, mutants live on earth too. He believes in an alternative solution. And say what you will about his faith, it's honestly no more unrealistic then thinking Cap's space team can take on the phoenix.

And it's not like Cap has any solution either, putting hope in "protective custody" would merely buy them some time.



> say Cap Didn't bring the avengers, Scott still would of shot him, Steve would have gone to get them any way, or worse scott has one of his pet telepaths mind fuck him to make his situation easier



Maybe if cap didn't say "I'm not asking", scott would entertain an actual discussion on the topic. Notice that Scott didn't blast him until he said he wasn't leaving and a high level telepath confirmed that he wasn't changing his mind.


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## Banhammer (Apr 19, 2012)

Yes, the political dignitary who he is known for recently leading and then defusing the subsequent failure of it's lay down of arms international conference, and turns massive terrorists like magneto, into unstoppable forces of good that stop earthquakes and hold celestials away from planetary meltdown, without against his will, is the one who would shoot captain america first

Again, the writers are being ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)


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## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> Where did he negotiate? Negotiation isn't asking for things and then taking them by force when you're told no.


 actually it  is that some times.





> Lol an intervention is not a negotiation, at all. By definition a negotiation requires compromise and/or mutual understanding.
> 
> The minute you you adopt the stance of "I'm getting what I want, you don't have a say in the matter" you are no longer negotiating.


 no because you can still work out accommodation or compromises, if Scott was smart he would of said "fine but i want my people right next to her the entire time" Steve would of agreed to that





> Didn't the phoenix just casually destroy a bunch of planets on its way to earth? I mean I guess you could lead it away, but I'm guessing nothing's faster than the phoenix, so either way the phoenix gets what it wants.


Nova was ale to out run it, so it can't be that fast




> Cyke isn't putting mutants before earth, mutants live on earth too. He believes in an alternative solution.


 ahh but he is. he is taking a risk that will potentially killed very man woman and child, all for the hope the phoenix can undue some thing that last time i checked couldn't be undone with out destroying reality



> And say what you will about his faith, it's honestly no more unrealistic then thinking Cap's space team can take on the phoenix.


well that team dose have thor, so its not that huge a stretch, and from the preview images thor dose manage to hurt it



> And it's not like Cap has any solution either, putting hope in "protective custody" would merely buy them some time.


 which is better then putting up a sign and saying "come posses this girl"





> Maybe if cap didn't say "I'm not asking", scott would entertain an actual discussion on the topic. Notice that Scott didn't blast him until he said he wasn't leaving and a high level telepath confirmed that he wasn't changing his mind


 yeah because Scott. wasn't being a dick before hand right?


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## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> actually it  is that some times.



So if a guy corners me in a dark alley

"Give me your money"
"No."
*guys pulls out a gun*
"Give me your money"

Is that a negotiation? By definition negotiation requires mutual discussion. Cap wasn't interested in anything Cyke had to say, he really only asked as an empty gesture of supposed respect.



> no because you can still work out accommodation or compromises, if Scott was smart he would of said "fine but i want my people right next to her the entire time" Steve would of agreed to that



If Cap was smart he wouldn't just drop an ultimatum and expect scott to kneel and kiss the shield.



> Nova was ale to out run it, so it can't be that fast



Fair enough.



> ahh but he is. he is taking a risk that will potentially killed very man woman and child, all for the hope the phoenix can undue some thing that last time i checked couldn't be undone with out destroying reality



How is he putting mutants above earth? Mutants live on earth. Unless cyclops has an emergency rocket ship to some kind of off planet space utopia for only mutants, he's not putting mutants before earth.

And again, it's not like Cap has any real plan either, he just wants to buy time.



> well that team dose have thor, so its not that huge a stretch, and from the preview images thor dose manage to hurt it
> 
> which is better then putting up a sign and saying "come posses this girl"



Thor hurting phoenix is laughable. Especially since Thor no longer has the odinforce. 

And it's really not better, at all. I dunno, i'll wait to hear beast's plan to judge. Thor's most likely just there to try and keep it busy.




> yeah because Scott. wasn't being a dick before hand right?



Scott's a dick, but he's not an idiot. He's not just going to blast captain america on the spot.

So yeah, I'm doing what I said was pointless to do, so I'm done now. Both characters are being written badly. Don't know how anyone couldn't see that.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> So if a guy corners me in a dark alley
> 
> "Give me your money"
> "No."
> ...


 Cyclops was the one that ended the conversation, it was still a negotiation, u can still meat out terms and compromises even if one party says one what or another i am leaving here with X




> If Cap was smart he wouldn't just drop an ultimatum and expect scott to kneel and kiss the shield.


 he Expected scott not to be a dumbass







> How is he putting mutants above earth? Mutants live on earth. Unless cyclops has an emergency rocket ship to some kind of off planet space utopia for only mutants, he's not putting mutants before earth.


he is putting the benefit of 1 % against the lives of the 99 %



> And again, it's not like Cap has any real plan either, he just wants to buy time.


 i think trying to stop the thing, Taking what its after off planet , and putting the best brains on the planet in a room to come up with a solution is a real plan





> Thor hurting phoenix is laughable. Especially since Thor no longer has the odinforce.


and yet.....












> So yeah, I'm doing what I said was pointless to do, so I'm done now. Both characters are being written badly. Don't know how anyone couldn't see that


I feel that its all been pretty consistent  but ill agree to disagree


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## Blackfeather Dragon (Apr 19, 2012)

although cyke seems to have been amped this is sort of the culmination, or the climax, of a something that has started since about messiah complex




Zen-aku said:


> Also this a post for CBR deconstructing Scottts actions for those  desperately trying to defend him, and its  written by a cyclops fan no less



skrullzinel


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## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Scott writers will always have the convient "the void made him do it" Excuse for any thing he dose, but i sense a big fall coming for him ether way.


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## Petes12 (Apr 19, 2012)

i don't really see his actions as unreasonable, or what he said about the avengers never helping mutants. he's right about that


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## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> i don't really see his actions as unreasonable, or what he said about the avengers never helping mutants. he's right about that



Scott side is totally understandably, even if i think he's wrong, his team knows he's wrong, and if he really took a moment to think about it he'd see he is probably wrong


The part about the avengers never helping how ever is bs, the avengers do turn up to help, and when they do they get told its mutant business, plus it works both ways, why Didn't the X-men come to help with Siege, or Fear itself, or the hammer War, or any of the times  Kang or Ultron have started shit.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Cyclops was the one that ended the conversation, it was still a negotiation, u can still meat out terms and compromises even if one party says one what or another i am leaving here with X



No, that's not a negotiation. That's a _demand_. Cap outright told him that they were taking Hope no matter what Scott said. Unless you have proof that Cap was willing to change his mind (And I want to see you post the proof of that), then there is no reason to take him at his word when he declared they were taking Hope unconditionally.



> he Expected scott not to be a dumbass



I think Scott didn't expect Captain America to invade his fucking country. If Cap goes to Britain and says "We are taking the Queen whether you like it or not", are the British being dumbasses for possibly taking umbrage with that?



> he is putting the benefit of 1 % against the lives of the 99 %



Based on what evidence? We have no fucking clue what the Phoenix is going to do. It's just as possible that, by aggravating the host they might well incur its wrath later. They may well have doomed us all by acting in the most hamfisted way possible. Whoops!

It's not like the Avengers have an absolutely stellar record when it comes to incredibly powerful, reality-altering mutants. The Avengers got mutants _into_ this fucking mess. Hell, the last time humans tried to "save the planet", the Illuminati shot the Hulk into space. Gee, that worked out great, too! Three humans voted to shoot Hulk into space; some of the brightest minds in the world, no less. Great job!

The fact of the matter is that the Avengers have done nothing but fuck up the world with their mistakes for the last 7-8 years. House of M, Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign... all of that shit came because the Avengers fucked up in some way. Civil War should be the best example of "We probably shouldn't listen to the Avengers", considering how badly they fucked everything up and allowed the Skrulls to completely exploit the system... and then turn over the keys to Norman Osbourne.

If I were Cyclops, I'd think of joining Blackbolt on the fucking _moon_.



> i think trying to stop the thing, Taking what its after off planet , and putting the best brains on the planet in a room to come up with a solution is a real plan



1) Taking it off-planet is _meaningless_. If the Phoenix is going to destroy the Earth, moving it an inconsequential distance away from the planet is not likely going to hinder it. If it wants to go back

2) Putting the "best brains in the room" together got the plan "Let's put a Helicarrier over Utopia and then demand they give Hope over. They didn't ask for any consultation, any sort of "equal partnership". Something that anyone with half a brain knows will _not_ go down well and will only lead to unnecessary fighting. 



> and yet.....



What, he temporarily redirects it? Considering that's the third issue of a 12 part mini-series, why do I doubt that does anything but slightly inconvenience it?



> I feel that its all been pretty consistent  but ill agree to disagree



I have to believe you are kidding. Neither side is being written well in this; not only are they making Cyclops look bad unnecessarily, but they are making the Avengers look downright stupid with their "planning". The fact that they didn't pursue any diplomatic avenues is completely out of character.


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## sanx021 (Apr 19, 2012)

honestly this event is stupid even the new avengers issue and Avengers issue revealed nothing they were meant to be tie ins but didn't really reveal anything this event was only brought about for fan service and to promote the avengers.
Cap was not willing to negotiate with cyclops due to what ever twisted lies Logan told him about the phoenix. Logan has the former host of the phoenix in his school and doesn't mention to Cap she managed to control it


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 19, 2012)

Yeah, what the fuck is with Logan not bringing Rachel? That makes no fucking sense.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 19, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> No, that's not a negotiation. That's a _demand_. Cap outright told him that they were taking Hope no matter what Scott said. Unless you have proof that Cap was willing to change his mind (And I want to see you post the proof of that), then there is no reason to take him at his word when he declared they were taking Hope unconditionally.


 New avengers in  response to "Scott will attack you"  

"I Will Try Every thing in that power not to let that happen" Had Scotts reaction not to been to blast him , cap would  have gladly worked towards a peacfull resolution





> I think Scott didn't expect Captain America to invade his fucking country.


I don't see why considering Scott Did it to him During CC if were really using the Sketchy at best "sovereign nation" card





> Based on what evidence? We have no fucking clue what the Phoenix is going to do.


Evidence: It has been destroying every planet, inhabited planets in its path on its way to earth




> It's not like the Avengers have an absolutely stellar record when it comes to incredibly powerful, reality-altering mutants. The Avengers got mutants _into_ this fucking mess.


 The X-men were just as responsible, they were at that meeting too.



> Hell, the last time humans tried to "save the planet", the Illuminati shot the Hulk into space.


 Sure ignore the Mutant, and Inhuman members of that group.

Gee, that worked out great, too! Three humans voted to shoot Hulk into space; some of the brightest minds in the world, no less. Great job!



> The fact of the matter is that the Avengers have done nothing but fuck up the world with their mistakes for the last 7-8 years. House of M, Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign... all of that shit came because the Avengers fucked up in some way. Civil War should be the best example of "We probably shouldn't listen to the Avengers", considering how badly they fucked everything up and allowed the Skrulls to completely exploit the system... and then turn over the keys to Norman Osbourne.


 Personally i put all that on One man, Stark, who i still think should be tried fro war crimes







> 1) Taking it off-planet is _meaningless_. If the Phoenix is going to destroy the Earth, moving it an inconsequential distance away from the planet is not likely going to hinder it. If it wants to go back


 if it wants hope then it will go to where Hope is, If they move it to say Mars then it will go to mars.



> 2) Putting the "best brains in the room" together got the plan "Let's put a Helicarrier over Utopia and then demand they give Hope over. They didn't ask for any consultation, any sort of "equal partnership". Something that anyone with half a brain knows will _not_ go down well and will only lead to unnecessary fighting.


 the conversation didint get that far





> What, he temporarily redirects it? Considering that's the third issue of a 12 part mini-series, why do I doubt that does anything but slightly inconvenience it?


 It was said  Thor couldn't hurt it, Quite clearly he hurts it.





> I have to believe you are kidding. Neither side is being written well in this; not only are they making Cyclops look bad unnecessarily, but they are making the Avengers look downright stupid with their "planning". The fact that they didn't pursue any diplomatic avenues is completely out of character.


Cyclops has been taking the hard line stance since Fear its self so this is not out of character. and the Avengers DID try a diplomatic avenue.

Their is noting wrong or stupid about  going with the offer with one hand and arm the other approach, that's how real governments work

{lets  try to keep this to small posts shall we}


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## sanx021 (Apr 19, 2012)

What diplomatic avenue Captain America has no authority in Utopia yet he thinks he can make demands. if cap really wanted Scott's help he would have gone to him before he went to Logan


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

Um Zen from what I remember Xavier wasn't there when the Illuminati voted to space Hulk...and I think Black Bolt voted against it like Namor did


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Um Zen from what I remember Xavier wasn't there when the Illuminati voted to space Hulk...and I think Black Bolt voted against it like Namor did


 Xavier said that if he had gotten a vote he would have agreed with the rest of them, and black bolt sided with the Illuminati that's why hulk stooped by his pad to whoop his ass. plus Xavier shares the same blame as the rest of them for antognizing the Skrulls



> What diplomatic avenue Captain America has no authority in Utopia yet he thinks he can make demands. if cap really wanted Scott's help he would have gone to him before he went to Logan


 Why logan and hank are the ones  has fought side  by side with recently ,Respects , andhave information on the phoenix and hate man he is going to negotiate with


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Xavier said that if he had gotten a vote he would have agreed with the rest of them, and black bolt sided with the Illuminati that's why hulk stooped by his pad to whoop his ass. plus Xavier shares the same blame as the rest of them for antognizing the Skrulls
> 
> Why logan and hank are the ones  has fought side  by side with recently ,Respects , andhave information on the phoenix and hate man he is going to negotiate with



Well Xavier was saying that when Hulk was invading his school...it's unknown if he really would have done that if the situation was different.

Oh did he...well Black Bolt was a skrull at the time so him agreeing could have been some deeper programming of the sleepers to get the Hulk off world.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Well Xavier was saying that when Hulk was invading his school...it's unknown if he really would have done that if the situation was different.


 I don't see Xavier lying like that to a man in pain. considering how he handled the vulcan shit i can see him agreeing to it easily



> Oh did he...well Black Bolt was a skrull at the time so him agreeing could have been some deeper programming of the sleepers to get the Hulk off world.


 that is likely, if i rember correctly though the Skrulls undercover programming was made that they thought exactly like the people they were imitating thought


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> New avengers in  response to "Scott will attack you"
> 
> "I Will Try Every thing in that power not to let that happen" Had Scotts reaction not to been to blast him , cap would  have gladly worked towards a peacfull resolution



Which is why he went there with a Helicarrier and then demanded that Hope be given to them? If that's him trying to get a peaceful resolution, I think Cap does not understand the finer points of diplomacy. Just because you say "I hope he sees it my way" doesn't give you the moral high ground to make demands and invade a country like he did.

That's the whole problem with this event. It's being written stupidly. You _can_ make Cyclops seem unreasonable if you write it correctly: Have him not want to include the Avengers at all for all the numerous reasons I outlined. Have the Avengers try a few times to engage him diplomatically rather than jump to full-out superhero invasion.

I mean, this shouldn't be like the fucking Ultimates or something.



> I don't see why considering Scott Did it to him During CC if were really using the Sketchy at best "sovereign nation" card



Must... avoid... Czechoslovakia.... reference...

I mean, my God, are you really saying that just because they are a recognized sovereign nation that doesn't mean you can't just invade them on a whim?



> Evidence: It has been destroying every planet, inhabited planets in its path on its way to earth



Evidence: it has taken hosts on Earth before and not destroyed the planet. The "consultant" for the Avengers currently fucking employs one of them! The Phoenix destroyed worlds before it took those on, but did not destroy Earth. 

There's simply not enough proof for either side on this one. Neither of us may be right, but I would probably side with the people who have the most experience with it to be honest.



> The X-men were just as responsible, they were at that meeting too.



Let's face facts: Quicksilver caused that bullshit. He ain't fighting for the X-Men on this one.



> Sure ignore the Mutant, and Inhuman members of that group.



Xavier was not at the meeting, and Namor was explicitly against it. Blackbolt was a skrull at the time, so I guess we can let that one slide. The fact of the matter is that "the smartest guys in the room" have fucked up majorly before, and it has bite them in the ass enough times to make you think "perhaps we'll handle this one ourselves".



> Personally i put all that on One man, Stark, who i still think should be tried fro war crimes



Cap is just as guilty. Both sides are for creating a superhero war for their own egos' sake. There were Avengers on both sides of that who did absolutely reprehensible things.



> if it wants hope then it will go to where Hope is, If they move it to say Mars then it will go to mars.



And if it's going to destroy Earth, it's going to destroy Earth. The host _does_ have influence over the Phoenix Force; pissing her off by moving her against her will may well seal the deal.



> the conversation didint get that far



The conversation never _was_. There wasn't a conversation, there was an ultimatum: Give up Hope (God, the amount of wordplay that is going to occur is starting to get to me) or else we just take her. He didn't put anything on the table, he made a demand. If he had said that he wanted to work with Cyclops for a solution, that's different. But that was never made or mentioned. That's the problem here and why the Avengers look like morons. For some reason, no one at Marvel understands how to write two sympathetic and understandable sides. Hell, looking at recent events they can barely write _one_ sympathetic side.



> It was said  Thor couldn't hurt it, Quite clearly he hurts it.



Eh, I just don't care about this much so whatever. It's not going to do anything meaningful for the series other than take up pages.



> Cyclops has been taking the hard line stance since Fear its self so this is not out of character. and the Avengers DID try a diplomatic avenue.



Hard-line stance? Okay, fine. Where was the diplomatic approach? Just because you talk with someone doesn't make that diplomatic. There was no diplomacy involved other than "Helicarrier diplomacy".



> Their is noting wrong or stupid about  going with the offer with one hand and arm the other approach, that's how real governments work



There was no "offer one hand". There was "Put the money in the bag" and "Or you will get shot". This is the equivalent to what the Japanese were essentially trying to do with the preemptive strike on US forces in the Pacific. 



> {lets  try to keep this to small posts shall we}



Then let's just avoid directly quoting posts and try to generalize points from now on. Simple way to keep it smaller.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

it's called preparing for the worst case scenario, better to have the army and not need it then need it and not have it. It would have been stupid for  Cap to go in with out a contingency plan




No i am saying if we are really  going to play the sovereign country card, Scott declared war during Children's crusade and is  harboring a WMD. 



it has also taken hosts and destroyed planets

again stop ignoring the fact it is currently killing trillions of people at a time on its way to earth, that is a big indicator of what it is most likely going to do


yes he did, pietro was able to bs his way out of justice it sucks and he should be tried for his crimes more then his sister but hey if he was an X-man it wouldn't have been any different with how it went down, but that has nothing to do with the point i made, both the X-men and the Avengers sat down t discuss killing his sister and he reacted poorly, its both their faults



that is a valid point they have fucked up in the past all the same, if  any one can come up with a save solution it will be tony , pym and reed


 its not their ego's they both have valid  points and objectives

that's the thing nether side  is asking hope what she wants, but  if  hope gives a shit about humanity and is able to "control it" he being pissed off doesn't matter, if she is gonna kill people  cause people had the audacity to move  her, then its all the more reason to not let the phoenix get to her


 in  both issues, cap said WE need to work together, constantly he was practically begging him to work with him, it was on the table cooperation, If Scotts master plan is to train her to control it, then why cant he make the consolation that it can happen off planet. Cap was open to negotiation, he didn't  just say give her to me, it was lets work together to stop this, but this needs to happen first while there is still time.

U talk so much about cap's ultimatum but what about scotts which basically "fuck off we got this", tell me  which one is more reasonable, making a demand were one side gets a say, or saying the fate of the world isn't any of your business


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Well, what I meant was to generalize our arguments rather than continue to go point-by-point, which is what lengthens things out.

But to point out, Scott's reaction is largely explainable by how he was approached. Look at how they do it; they don't announce they are coming by, they arrive in a Helicarrier, and basically say "You do this or else." How can you expect him to react any other way? You say that Cap wants to work together, and I believe his character _would_... but his actions do not suggest that. New Avengers doesn't add anything on that: Saying "I hope he sees it my way" is not treating mutants as equal partners, it's saying that they'd better do what you want or you'll attack them. He simply lands, says they are going to take Hope, and says they won't take no for an answer.

I will credit House of M with the right idea in that they should discuss such things; however, I mention House of M as a reason against the Avengers because it's easy to see it that way from the mutant perspective. Pietro is an Avenger first and foremost, they should have had him taken care of. That's not entirely _fair_, but at least there's a reasoning behind it.

Similarly, Civil War was the Avengers dividing the nation and creating large-scale super-human violence. Both sides are at fault with being completely unreasonable, though mostly due to really shitty writing and editorial direction. But there's no way to avoid that the main players in the Avengers caused the whole mess and did some ridiculous things. You obviously don't trust Tony Stark and I'm sure some of the other guys who were involved with that; should Cyclops? 

World War Hulk is a good example; hell, I agreed with Tony! But that doesn't mean that it didn't work out and backfired in his face. And this isn't the Hulk they want to deal with now, this is the Phoenix Force, a cosmic force of inconceivable power. And they aren't even asking for your input, they are just saying "We'll take it from here."

For all the problems the X-Men can cause, it seems like the big ones as of late have all been caused by the Avengers in some way.

I can understand why the Avengers want to be involved. Sure, the Phoenix Force has destroyed trillions of lives... but we aren't putting Rachel Summers on trial for war crimes, are we? She controlled the Phoenix Force as a host and didn't let it destroy the Earth. Why is she _not_ involved? It seems as though she should be the first person you talk to, not Wolverine; it's okay for Wolverine to be a consultant, but Rachel should be taking the lead on this.

Alternative Suggestion: Cap says that the X-Men and Avengers should take joint responsibility, with Rachel taking on the task as mentor. She can be trained on neutral ground with Rachel, and you can send your own to oversee the training. You can even be involved personally if you want to, Cyclops.

Not only does that try and treat the mutants as equals, but it comes off as reasonable because they both have a concern for earth and Rachel is a logical choice for someone to help train the next Phoenix host. There are reasonable things Cap can approach Cyclops with, but that simply didn't happen. It doesn't help that he showed up unannounced and demanded to take Hope.


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## Petes12 (Apr 20, 2012)

tldr **


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> tldr **




Cap showed up as the aggresssor. Just saying "I hope he sees it my way" does not mean you were going to work with someone.
There are fairly good reasons for the X-Men to not want to work with the "problem solvers" of the Avengers.
While the Phoenix can destroy worlds, we have hosts that are on the side of the Avengers (nominally) that have controlled it previously. It's come to Earth before and not destroyed it, and if it were going to destroy Earth taking it a small distance away isn't going to help. Hell, it might make the host angry and influence the PF in a bad way.
The most reasonable thing to do would be to have the Avengers and X-Men take up joint responsibility, allow Rachel to train her at a neutral third site and placate Cyclops by allowing him observation and personal involvement if he likes. If that doesn't work, at least you tried.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Cap came to him and said We need to work together, he said that multiple times to his face, he showed up by him self, to talk to him as leaders, he repeatedly sad they need to work together, ,Had scott not shot him, the conversation would of continued, they would of argued more and they most likely could of come to a solution. but that ddidnt happen because  Scott wasn't willing to work with cap at all, *At All*.

Cap has proven to the X-men countless times he has no prejudiced and he wants to work with them, and that didn't change here, despite what you think of his actions during the civil war, he paid for it, when eh left things got worse, when he came back, he through out the SHRA, he repealed the situation in San fransico, commended scott for what he did. and has been doing a real good job of making the world better. 

yes he gave an ultimatum but it was one that could of seen consolations, recomndations  and other considerations be made. the reason that didn't happen is completely on scott, imagine what would of happened had Cap not been able to block that shot, if he had been a second 2 slow.

An additional problem is that, Scott has apparently expected this for along time, the shit he talked in Uncanny number 1 seems to support this, i don't doubt for a second he didn't want this fight on some level. 

Rachel isn't involved cause shes in a comma BTW  WATX

also I don't see how you can agree with tony  kidnapping the hulk and sending him off planet, when at worst the hulk is only a city wide threat, [and apparently has never killed any one in one of his rampages], but think cap is out of line wanting to get hope off planet so that the phoenix wont come to earth is wrong?


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

He did not "repeatedly" say "we need to work together". He came there, "leader to leader" to say "you need to trust me" that the Avengers will handle this. He outright says that they aren't going to discuss this that day, and that they were taking Hope. Stop acting like Cap was begging Cyclops or something, because it didn't happen: He basically tried to bully Cyclops into giving up Hope.

He gave an ultimatum. There was not going to be a discussion, as he _outright states_ that to Cyclops. Cap shows up unannounced with heavy artillery and essentially threatens Cyclops. It's miserable writing, but it's _still on the page_.

Rachel is in a coma? They can't get around that with some sort of mutant telepathic bullshit? Dr. Strange can't pull a spiritual plane meeting of some sort? It's they weren't communicating with a near brain-dead Xavier before. 

And I agreed with Tony because the Hulk _is_ a huge threat; on a good day he's merely a city threat. The problem was I made my decision before the completely bullshit Amadeus Cho "the Hulk never kills anyone" explanation. Such a fucking stupid development.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> He outright says that they aren't going to discuss this that day, and that they were taking Hope.


actualy that was in reference to Scott's attempt derail the conversation with "you never do any thing for mutants." 

Cap shut that down because they have more important things to deal with, notice he gets right back to the priority

he says and i quote "This isn't a mutant vs human problem, if she is the phoenix force WE need to take care of this" he repeatedly tries to build a bridge of cooperation, to say he tried  to "Bully" cyclops is delusional, cap didn't make the demand until Cyclops told him o fuck off, up untill then cap was negotiating, begin respectful trying to strike a common down.

Dr. Strange could probably do some thing, instead he has to deal with X-men, you seem to forget these events are all happening over the course of a couple of hours




> And I agreed with Tony because the Hulk _is_ a huge threat; on a good day he's merely a city threat.


The Phoenix is a Huge threat, on a bad day its a planet killer, its been a bad day for every planet it has visited recently

And hope, shes already a wild card, jean, Rachel they were normal mutants, Hope is some thing else. and has shown ...lets call it poor impulse control.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

The conversation you are thinking of didn't happen.


Cap says they are going to take Hope into protective custody.
Cyclops says that Hope is a mutant and they will take care of it.
Cap says this isn't a mutant/human problem, and again says that the Avengers will take care of it.
Cyclops explains why Hope becoming the Phoenix is important for mutants.
Cap _again_ tells Cyclops that he needs to trust Hope with the Avengers.
They exchange "Too close/Too far" barbs.
Cyclops feels that the Avengers only come to them when they need something.
Cap says that they can have the discussion later, but Hope needs to come now.
Cyclops says fuck off, Cap says he's not leaving.

There is nothing in there about working together. Cap walked up with a Helicarrier unannounced and said they were taking Hope. If you want to post pictures that refute this, please find them because I certainly can't. Cap's entire conversation consisted of:

We need Hope.
Trust us, we'll take care of it.
This is not a request.
That is bullying, no matter how you look at it. They showed up with a big stick, demanded Cyclops give her up, and he stood his ground. It's stupid writing, but that's what is on the page. It's not my fault that the Architects write a really, really shitty Captain America for this comic. I mean, even Storm walked out of the meeting when she found out what Cap was looking at discussing.

Phoenix _is_ a huge threat, you are right. That's why you should probably go with the team is intimately familiar with it and have dealt with it before. Considering the alternative is the team which failed to take care of the Hulk and instead caused him to rampage through New York City like no other time previously, I think the X-Men deserve the benefit of the doubt.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> There is nothing in there about working together. Cap walked up with a Helicarrier unannounced and said they were taking Hope. If you want to post pictures that refute this, please find them because I certainly can't.


  Lets do that shall we 

 here we see cap telling him that as a group they need to take care of this, he stresses that he wants to come to a understanding, he asked for scout's trust, you know like how cap gave scott his trust over the X-force thing, and when they did that mission in the states

here we see him, telling Scott to put away the chip on his shoulder, and reminds him of the situation, and tells him that they need too take care of this together.




> Phoenix _is_ a huge threat, you are right. That's why you should probably go with the team is intimately familiar with it and have dealt with it before. Considering the alternative is the team which failed to take care of the Hulk and instead caused him to rampage through New York City like no other time previously, I think the X-Men deserve the benefit of the doubt.


The iluminati did that, not the avengers, if Tony was leading this charge then you would have a valid argument, [also the X-men got their shit tossed worse then the X-men when hulk came calling]

The avengers are the ones that dealt with the sentry, and the Serpent, and the Skrulls, and Thanos, they deserve to not get stone walled over scott's petty bullshit.



At the end of the day if Caps wrong then hope has to train in space.

if Scotts wrong They all die burning.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Wow, someone needs to brush up on their reading comprehension.

The first "we" you show refers to the Avengers, not Cap and Cyclops, just as the "we" in "we'll take care of it" refers to the X-Men. They haven't mentioned each other together yet, so there's no reason to think they aren't referring to their respective groups. Are you also interpreting "our experts" as both his and Cyclops' experts, and that when he says "We need to take Hope into protective custody" as both their groups?

The "understanding" he's talking about in the second circled frame does not mean they intend to work together. Pay attention to _what comes after it_: He was hoping that Scott could trust him with this. That's the understanding; he was hoping that Scott would listen to him and allow him to take Hope, which Wolverine doesn't think was going to happen. So that's my point yet again: He's looking for Scott to do what he wants him to do, not a partnership.

The third frame doesn't really matter: Cap has told him that the issue of Hope going to them is not up for discussion right now. Sure, they can work together, but it's going to be on Cap's terms and he's taking Hope now. Sort of like Emma points out when Cap arrrives: He's not leaving without her.

So thanks for basically proving my points for me.

The Illuminati did it... two of them being influential Avengers. It shows the decisions-making capacity of two important Avengers.

And if Cap is wrong, the Earth still gets destroyed, possibly because kidnapping the host invited retribution from the Phoenix Force. You do realize that the host does have some control and doesn't like to be fucked with against its will, right?


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## sanx021 (Apr 20, 2012)

your argument falls apart in the last panel when Cap tell Scott he wasn't asking and Scott said yes he understands. so I don't see how you can defend Cap on that one. Cap is also being disrespectful to  Scott by saying what he did Utopia is a sovereign nation Cap can not storm in and start making demands


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> your argument falls apart in the last panel when Cap tell Scott he wasn't asking and Scott said yes he understands. so I don't see how you can defend Cap on that one. Cap is also being disrespectful to  Scott by saying what he did Utopia is a sovereign nation Cap can not storm in and start making demands



Exactly. Hell, in the first panel Emma points out that he's not leaving without her. He came in there to take her, whether they liked it or not. Why do you think they didn't call before they came?


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Wow, someone needs to brush up on their reading comprehension.


 do you want to escalate, or do you want a  pleasant conversation



> The first "we" you show refers to the Avengers, not Cap and Cyclops, just as the "we" in "we'll take care of it" refers to the X-Men. They haven't mentioned each other together yet, so there's no reason to think they aren't referring to their respective groups. Are you also interpreting "our experts" as both his and Cyclops' experts, and that when he says "We need to take Hope into protective custody" as both their groups?


 first panel, read what he says first, this isn't mutant's vs humans,  that's cap trying to remind Scott he isn't against him, his use of the word we, is him trying to include Scott.




> second part


 telling him in the first place, that he want's them to come to an understanding  he want's them to work together, now if Cyke wasnt't....being cyke as soon as steve said that he could of made his conditions, and cap most likely would have acquiesced to any thing scott asked of him as long as he didn't have to worry about every one on the planet dying. hell that would of been the perfect time to say "ok you want hope fine, give us wanda".

anyway like i said before Steve has given scott allot of trust  recently and lt the CC incident go and is asking him to trust him ,which scott is saying he dosen't [for no real reason].



> The third frame doesn't really matter: Cap has told him that the issue of Hope going to them is not up for discussion right now.


 the hell it doesn't that is  Caps entire stance there

"we don't have time for bull shit we need to work together and save the world"

at no point dose Cyclops make a counter offer, show any indication that he is willing to allow them to help or even keep him in the loop, the entire time its "this is a mutant problem" completely ignoring that he is gambling the rest of humanity.



> your argument falls apart in the last panel when Cap tell Scott he wasn't asking and Scott said yes he understands. so I don't see how you can defend Cap on that one.


 because while Steve had an ultimatum, it wasn't absolute, their  was a wide room for Scott to make a deal that didn't end up with this fight


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## sanx021 (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> but it's ok when scott dose it right?



What does that have to do with any thing going on in this event

 here's a good report of how things went wrong and who started it


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> do you want to escalate, or do you want a  pleasant conversation



Oh, come now. That's hardly an insult. I was simply stating the type of mistake you made.



> first panel, read what he says first, this isn't mutant's vs humans,  that's cap trying to remind Scott he isn't against him, his use of the word we, is him trying to include Scott.



That does not mean that they are referring to them together. It means that the Avengers taking Hope is not supposed to be viewed along a Human/Mutant line. It makes even less sense in context when he points out that Scott is too close to it: That line of argument is meant to disqualify the X-Men from dealing with this problem because of the emotions involved. If he is trying to work with him together, that's a rather poor choice of words.



> telling him in the first place, that he want's them to come to an understanding  he want's them to work together, now if Cyke wasnt't....being cyke as soon as steve said that he could of made his conditions, and cap most likely would have acquiesced to any thing scott asked of him as long as he didn't have to worry about every one on the planet dying. hell that would of been the perfect time to say "ok you want hope fine, give us wanda".



Didn't Cap already say in Children's Crusade that Wanda was an Avenger and that they would take care of it?

And there's no "work together" in that statement. The "coming to an understanding" was trusting Steve with Hope. That's what Steve was hoping would happen, but Wolverine said would never happen. That's very clear in the text.



> anyway like i said before Steve has given scott allot of trust  recently and lt the CC incident go and is asking him to trust him ,which scott is saying he dosen't [for no real reason].



I'm not going to say that Cyke shouldn't trust Cap, but he shouldn't trust him to just fucking take Hope like this.



> the hell it doesn't that is  Caps entire stance there
> 
> "we don't have time for bull shit we need to work together and save the world"
> 
> at no point dose Cyclops make a counter offer, show any indication that he is willing to allow them to help or even keep him in the loop, the entire time its "this is a mutant problem" completely ignoring that he is gambling the rest of humanity.



No, no it's not. It says it very clearly: "If you want to have a discussion, fine. But it'll have to wait for another day."

That's not a partnership. That's "I'm taking Hope. If you want to discuss the matter, please call the Avengers Customer Service Line. But I'm taking Hope now."

Now let me ask a few simple questions which pretty much shows why the idea that Cap wants Cyclops to be a part of this.



_"If the groups are going to work together, why do *the Avengers* need to take her into protective custody?"_



_"If the groups were going to work together, why was that *not *mentioned *at all* in the briefing with Cap?"_


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## sanx021 (Apr 20, 2012)

Let's not forget Cyclops sided with the avengers in x sanction when cable was going to kill them. Cable gives information to Scott about the future and what happens when he handed Hope over to the avengers


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## Taleran (Apr 20, 2012)

This is an example of way way way more thought that than the people involved.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Taleran said:


> This is an example of way way way more thought that than the people involved.



That's kind of what comic books are all about, man.


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## sanx021 (Apr 20, 2012)

Taleran said:


> This is an example of way way way more thought that than the people involved.



What were you expecting it's a comic book event with heroes vs heroes it was always going to be like this


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

> *Cap is also being disrespectful to Scott by saying what he did Utopia is a sovereign nation Cap can not storm in and start making demands*


but it's ok when scott dose it right? 



> What does that have to do with any thing going on in this event


Seriously?

First it invalidates your "sovereign country" claim also makes you look like a huge hypocrite . Makes Scott look like a hypocrite and a bigger douche then already, not to mention CC is a  factor in this as much as schism

also gives  Cap a DAMN good reason to show up with an army 


Lets Examine Scotts Behavior shall we, this will be fun




Shows  Up with the heavy hitters, ready to fight in an  American City, unnanounced

Now Un Like hope, their not coming  To Save the world, and protect some one, they are their to illegally "extradite" a us Citizen, and use lethal force if they have too

 I must say i am supremely enjoying the Irony if you note, scott makes a very framilliar ultimatum [iam giving props to bendis for this in AVX1] any way steve reacts to this differently then Scott dose a month later

he too doesn't give into the ultimatum but he dose offer a small olive branch, saying that yes She will be brought to justice 


more then scott dose to appease the other side when the situations are reversed, And while its similar to Cyke saying "its a mutant problem"  Scott is the aggressor over the fate of one life

Cap is the aggressor over the fate of trillions, similar but different.

They explain that wanda will attempt to undo the damage, how dose scott react?

*Spoiler*: __ 






the same way he has been solving most of his debates lately, an unprovoked attack



Scott threatans to kill her  in cold blood if he dosen't get his way, Magneto is appalled by his actions.

let that last sentence sink in for a moment

 Here we have cap trying to diffuse the situaion and Tony is practicly begging scott not to do this

Much like in AVX2 Cap is through out the fight  begging  for scott to compromise




*Spoiler*: __ 







 Now i agree with the idea that wanda should die for what she did, accident, bs or not

But  after seeing all this Is Cap really so out of line for bring back up, he has seen Scotts Mutants first F every one else policy first hand.

Further more, Cap has been a metric shit more respectful and diplomatic then scott, hell scott never even tried

Really it just makes scott's actions in AVX look Spitefull to me. The Fact that Cap showed up alone first and tried to be diplomatic shows the calbur of man he is after he had to put up with this shit.

I can't see how any one could try and justify  Scotts CC actions,but i look forward to seeing sanx try


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Yeah, I'll get to CC in a second, but are you going to answer the questions I asked or just ignore them because you _can't_ answer them?


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Yeah, I'll get to CC in a second, but are you going to answer the questions I asked or just ignore them because you _can't_ answer them?



encase you can't tell i was a little busy, i had to scan most of those my self.




> "If the groups are going to work together, why do the Avengers need to take her into protective custody?"


 so they can get her ass into space, and avoid Armageddon



> "If the groups were going to work together, why was that not mentioned at all in the briefing with Cap?"



You mean besides "i really hope they will see reason" you are really  trying to sell this as "Steve takes hope, and cuts the X-men out of the loop" but nothing indicates that. Cap was banking on scott being willing to work with him, First step was getting hope, had  scott not been scott then they would of went on to step 2 ,he banked wrong.


After all the CC stuff i gotta say again scott should of went "fine give us Wanda" it would of been the ultimate move If cap refuses he looses any moral traction, and confirm his issues with the avengers, if  he says yes, he gets to try her as  war criminal, Hope can do her thing in space, and he gets a major political win for mutants


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## sanx021 (Apr 20, 2012)

I can't justify scott's action during CC he was out of line but I understand he did it but cap should know not to make the same mistake cyclops did during CC


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> I can't justify scott's action during CC he was out of line but I understand he did it but cap should know not to make the same mistake cyclops did during CC



Cap has so far handled the situation a hell of allot better then Scott has, had Ckye not shot Cap do you really think he would of just up and called the avengers.

be honest, had scott not ended the conversation and they just stuck to arguing do you really think they couldn't of come up with a compromise?


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> so they can get her ass into space, and avoid Armageddon



Then why are they _taking_ her from the X-Men? There's no implication that the X-Men are coming along for the ride in anything Cap says. Yo



> You mean besides "i really hope they will see reason"



Yes, the "logic and reason"_ being allowing *the Avengers* to take her out into space_, like the plan he just outlined mentioned. You have this idea that seeing "logic and reason" means that he's asking Scott to help when it really means "go along with my plan". It's rather cut and dry, but you seem to try and endlessly twist it so that it doesn't say the obvious.



> you are really  trying to sell this as "Steve takes hope, and cuts the X-men out of the loop" but nothing indicates that.



Except, you know, _everything_. The fact that there was no mention of cooperation (or even hoping for cooperation after getting Hope) seems to point to the fact that they were going to take her and execute their "plan".



> Cap was banking on scott being willing to work with him, First step was getting hope, had  scott not been scott then they would of went on to step 2 ,he banked wrong.



WORK WITH HIM ON WHAT? Give specifics, please, because Cap's plan did not include any X-Men. They are rather explicit in that they are taking Hope, likely without X-Men approval. I can't believe you are trying to spin it like there is this secret, implicit idea that Cap wants the X-Men's help, even though he never mentions it in the plan at all and no one seems to mention the idea. I guess it was so secret that Cyclops didn't pick up on it, either.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

IT's Cap, so far in all the tie in's he is repeatedly saying this isn't about Humans vs mutants, we need to save the world, those 2 together shows he is more then willing to work with the X-men.

He Clearly wants Scott to work with him, trust him and follow his plan, which is very simple and open to additions get hope of the planet. if  it was purely about  getting his way he wouldn't have talked to Scott man to man, he would of showed up on that with Strange, Hulk, Wolverine, and Tony, and  just demanded her.

Iam gonna ask the same question i did sanx



> had scott not ended the conversation and they just stuck to arguing do you really think they couldn't of come up with a compromise?


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

When hope was born, they slaughtered an entire town in the off chance of getting her
Every man woman and baby

When bishop, a known avengers ally, decided to hunt her down, he turned the entire planet on eight different realities into a wasteland in the chance that she would get caught up in it, choke on radioactive sludge and die

Do go on telling me  Scott is being over insane 



> Give specifics, please, because Cap's plan did not include any X-Men




it included one x-man



bitchverine


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

why is it when bishop dose some thing wrong he is an "Avenger ally?


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

threaten to blow up his entire island full of kids if he doesn't do what wolverinewants
Gives him a private jet, and allows him and everyone else who would like to leave to kindly do so
Gets repaid by having wolverine sick a helicarrier of retarded avengers on him

Where were the avengers in genosha again?


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> why is it when bishop dose some thing wrong he is an "Avenger ally?



Hey guys, this civil war is about superheroes acting retarded, and it is so close to the mra, that we are not going to intervene on either side!

Bishop: *Intervenes on Tony Stark's side*


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

^that dosen't answer the question... at all

i Believe they were getting shit kicked by  the Scarlet witch, and were "dissembled" at the time genosha went down

Also Read the CC Post, wolverine or not, cap new what was gonna go down when he showed up at  scotts front door


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

respect mah authoritah scott summers.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Comparing Scott to Cartman....Works for me, scott seems to be action on that same "i am always right and who ever disagrees is victimizing me" logic


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Lets Examine Scotts Behavior shall we, this will be fun



Yeah, let's go with this...



> Shows  Up with the heavy hitters, ready to fight in an  American City, unnanounced
> 
> Now Un Like hope, their not coming  To Save the world, and protect some one, they are their to illegally "extradite" a us Citizen, and use lethal force if they have too



Wanda agrees to the extradition. Hope didn't. I'm sure you "forgot" to include that in there, but it's a rather important difference between her and Hope.





> I must say i am supremely enjoying the Irony if you note, scott makes a very framilliar ultimatum [iam giving props to bendis for this in AVX1] any way steve reacts to this differently then Scott dose a month later



Well, yeah. Steve is sort of defending the person who caused the genocide of the mutant race. Cyclops is probably a bit emotional, considering all he's been through and the fact that the Avengers are now shielding her from Utopia. Having read books about similar things in modern history, his reaction is probably more measured than you think.



> he too doesn't give into the ultimatum but he dose offer a small olive branch, saying that yes She will be brought to justice



That's not an olive branch. In fact, it's no different from what Scott said on Utopia: "We'll take care of it."



> more then scott dose to appease the other side when the situations are reversed, And while its similar to Cyke saying "its a mutant problem"  Scott is the aggressor over the fate of one life



It's not "one life", it's a person who destroyed his race and killed hundreds if not thousands of people and left millions powerless. She's essentially a war criminal or a terrorist on a grand scale.



> Cap is the aggressor over the fate of trillions, similar but different.



Well, in that Hope actually hasn't done anything. Hope has committed no crime and Cap is simply acting preemptively. It's somewhat understandable, but there's no proof that the Phoenix will destroy Earth.

Also, we only have "billions" on Earth.



> They explain that wanda will attempt to undo the damage, how dose scott react?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



That misses the point. He says that it's not up to the Avengers to decide what happens to Wanda... at which point she agrees to go with them and accept the fate that they give her. Scott's emotional, and he has a right to be so; the Avengers have no conception as to what they've been through and what Wanda means to them.





> Scott threatans to kill her  in cold blood if he dosen't get his way, Magneto is appalled by his actions.
> 
> let that last sentence sink in for a moment



He threatens to kill her because he refuses to see her get away. Hate to say it, but the accurate comparison here is to Mossad agents tracking down people who ordered the executions of Jews during the Holocaust. Wanda 



> Here we have cap trying to diffuse the situaion and Tony is practicly begging scott not to do this



Again, they think they can defuse it because they have no conception of what Wanda means to the mutants. Wanda fucking destroyed their race; letting her go now would be like letting a Nazi Commandant get away from the Mossad. They aren't to listen to you because the actions the person has committed are so heinous that it doesn't matter what you say because that person needs to die. It's almost a direct reference to what's going on in the book.



> Much like in AVX2 Cap is through out the fight  begging  for scott to compromise



There's no compromise in AVX #2. All he does is continue to ask him to let her go. What "compromise" is there?



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Much like Cap and the Avengers, you miss the whole reason why they are there and why they are so adamant about not letting her go. Even you understand that the crimes she committed were incredible in scale; this isn't like Hope, who hasn't done anything yet.

The problem here is that you mistake emotion for "assholishness". Wanda is their Osama Bin Laden, their grand terrorist. If you got a bunch of New York Cops in view of Osama bin Laden being taken to the UN to stand trial (Yes, it wouldn't occur there, just go with the comparison), do you think they'd be particular nice about it, or do you think they'd demand that he see justice in America? Would you take it as a reflection of who they really are, or accept that this more about what happened than what it means about themselves?



> Further more, Cap has been a metric shit more respectful and diplomatic then scott, hell scott never even tried



Scott didn't really try, no. You are right. I'd argue different circumstances with different emotional tones.



> Really it just makes scott's actions in AVX look Spitefull to me. The Fact that Cap showed up alone first and tried to be diplomatic shows the calbur of man he is after he had to put up with this shit.



Cap didn't show up to be diplomatic, though. You keep missing this; he's showing up to take away Hope. I suppose you could call it a courtesy, but it's not a grand, all-inclusive gesture. It's just "Here's what I'm doing". He's not taking input, he's not asking for help. He's telling them what he's doing and not allowing them to make a choice about it. The difference is that Cap isn't emotional about it because there isn't the same level of emotion towards Hope that... well, just about any mutant has towards Wanda. It's rather different.



> I can't see how any one could try and justify  Scotts CC actions,but i look forward to seeing sanx try



It's rather easy to justify them, though it doesn't necessarily make them completely in the right. Look at everything that has happened since M-Day. All the pain, the hardship, the trials, the near-extinction of your race. And then the person is in front of you? Yeah, I get Scott's anger, just as I get why Cap does what he does here. They are viewing from two completely irreconcilable viewpoints which are shaped by their experiences.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

making fun of zen aku's delusions

One of the few satisfying things in life that just happen, grow and climax  by themselves


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

she's a war criminal, and a genocidal mad person who risks the universe

But cap won't hand her over because she's one of their own

when it's time to hand hope over though
Welp, better bring the helicarrier


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

You know, how the heck is Scott being "spiteful" in AvX? I just realized this: Zen-aku has made a better case for _Cap_ being spiteful. If anything, it feels like Cap is being far more aggressive than he needs to be with no emotional tether as an explanation. With CC, it's obvious that Scott and the others want Wanda because of what she has put them through for the last couple years (Which have basically put the mutant race on the brink of extinction). Cap really doesn't have an excuse in this situation, unless he's still angry at Cyclops over the whole CC thing.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Not to mention, Wanda is an actual mutant and with therefore some legal argument over wether or not they deserve to have her extradited, and you know, stand trial.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

I remember old man logan when wolverine felt so guilty for being manipulated into attacking the x-men, who kept holding back trying to stop him (what else is new?9 without killing him, that he shoved his head on a train track and decided that he forevermore remain a bitch

The good old days


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Now it's "We're out of sugar. Better go out and stab some x-men"


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Actually, his whole reaction to Children's Crusade is pretty hilarious. 

"Well, saw this comin'. Stop it? Naw, I'll just go with it and knife some of my teammates."


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 20, 2012)

the thing that makes Logan look really stupid is he doesn't mention Rachel to Cap if any thing this could have been prevented by Logan instead he makes it worse. 

 what kind of man names a school after another person's wife if anything he may be trying to off Cyclops because he thinks Jean is coming back


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Hey Logan what do you know about the phoenix force?

Logan: You mean me? Of the jean grey institute which I founded? In which I employ not one, but two of the former hosts, one of which, an nonredeemable omega level mutant with a history of terrorism. In secret from you. Right next to the kid apocalypse?

Yes

Well there's this one red headed girl in utopia. Jean Grey was red headed. Maybe you should get a helicarrier and go bother scott about this


----------



## Taleran (Apr 20, 2012)

Children's Crusade was so horribly delayed and out of place that connecting it to the event seems foolish on their part.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 20, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> the thing that makes Logan look really stupid is he doesn't mention Rachel to Cap if any thing this could have been prevented by Logan instead he makes it worse.



I'm not holding this against the avengers. It's obvious that the writers don't want to acknowledge any phoenix post dark phoenix, so for all intents and purposes rachel never hosted the phoenix force.


----------



## Kanali (Apr 20, 2012)

I dont get why people are still arguing in favor of the Avengers when Blaquesmith and Cable already showed us the future in which the Avengers got to Hope. A desolated wasteland. Hell, there's even Bishops future in which Hope presumably got the Phoenix and the Earth is fine and mutant birth got restarted. Granted she killed a million humans and mutants are in camps, but still its better than Blaquesmiths future


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

the eevnt is terribly written on all sides, but after I've seen the "torture rogers" and the magic "waterboarding strange"I'm less offended that steve would do what he did
It's still a violation of what he always stood for, but it at least has been a while coming


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 20, 2012)

Taleran said:


> This is an example of way way way more thought that than the people involved.



That's the point of this debate. The writers _want_ people debating who is in the right here. So far, these are the only reasons I can think why this event is happening at all.

1. Promote the Avengers movie.
2. Fill out the quota for one event per year.
3. Make up for making Iron Man's side less sympathetic.
4. Wrap up relevant plot threads in the series of events that began with Disassembled.

So really, this event is just forced.


----------



## shit (Apr 20, 2012)

I can't help liking rogers more the more you guys flip your shit over the audacity of what he's doing


----------



## Taleran (Apr 20, 2012)

Scott struck first.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 20, 2012)

but cyclops is cooler


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Taleran said:


> Scott struck first.



So did han solo


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 20, 2012)

this guy also struck first 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=514IEcgz1Q8[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Wanda agrees to the extradition. Hope didn't. I'm sure you "forgot" to include that in there, but it's a rather important difference between her and Hope.


 in consiquntial, seeing as she has crimes she needs to be tried for in the us






That's not an olive branch. In fact, it's no different from what Scott said on Utopia: "We'll take care of it."





> It's not "one life", it's a person who destroyed his race and killed hundreds if not thousands of people and left millions powerless. She's essentially a war criminal or a terrorist on a grand scale.


it is one life, nothing scott dose will effect the 100s she killed and thousands shes  fucked over, whether she gets justice in the us or on the scrap heap dosen't matter int he grand schme





> Well, in that Hope actually hasn't done anything. Hope has committed no crime and Cap is simply acting preemptively. It's somewhat understandable, but there's no proof that the Phoenix will destroy Earth.


Except for the dozen of planets its destroyed on its way here, You basically saying that if a bull it trashing every vase in a china shop you have no proof its gonna trash a specific one at the end of the room

hope wasn't under arrest he was not trying to hurt her, there's a clear difference






> That misses the point. He says that it's not up to the Avengers to decide what happens to Wanda... at which point she agrees to go with them and accept the fate that they give her. Scott's emotional, and he has a right to be so; the Avengers have no conception as to what they've been through and what Wanda means to them.


 that's wrong, she was one of them, she betrayed them, she screwed allot of them over emotinaly via house of M, She killed the avengers for a while, and set in motion events that are still being felt by the team ,they are aware of the weight the situation.







> He threatens to kill her because he refuses to see her get away. Hate to say it, but the accurate comparison here is to Mossad agents tracking down people who ordered the executions of Jews during the Holocaust. Wanda


 Yes but tis still a terrorist action on this point, and a dumb one on his part, and shows the man  Cyclops has turned into





> Again, they think they can defuse it because they have no conception of what Wanda means to the mutants. Wanda fucking destroyed their race; letting her go now would be like letting a Nazi Commandant get away from the Mossad. They aren't to listen to you because the actions the person has committed are so heinous that it doesn't matter what you say because that person needs to die. It's almost a direct reference to what's going on in the book.


 so its  ok for the  X men to walk in and attack unprovoked for  a claim of justice, but its wrong for cap to want to take some one off planet when the result will most likely be annihilation? that is basically what your saying. Ether way Scott has shown that he thinks that  because mutants are involved he has grand  say , and that he cannot be reasoned with





> There's no compromise in AVX #2. All he does is continue to ask him to let her go. What "compromise" is there?


He continues to ask him to not cause a super hero fight because of his own pride, and remember the people that he is gonna kill if he is wrong






> this isn't like Hope, who hasn't done anything yet.


your' right she hasnt, which is why  cap isn't threatening to ill her, or lock her in a dungeon or, he is trying  to simply get her off planet



> The problem here is that you mistake emotion for "assholishness". Wanda is their Osama Bin Laden, their grand terrorist. If you got a bunch of New York Cops in view of Osama bin Laden being taken to the UN to stand trial (Yes, it wouldn't occur there, just go with the comparison), do you think they'd be particular nice about it, or do you think they'd demand that he see justice in America? Would you take it as a reflection of who they really are, or accept that this more about what happened than what it means about themselves?


the problem is is that, If  Bin laden was arrested by  the UK and brought to london, the US would have no right to try and take him illegally, further more, Scott is doing this to people who respect him, who have tired to work him and help him, and he is being an asshole, attacking them unprovoked, not even trying to negotiate








> Cap didn't show up to be diplomatic, though. You keep missing this; he's showing up to take away Hope. "Here's what I'm doing". He's not taking input, he's not asking for help. He's telling them what he's doing and not allowing them to make a choice about it.


 He is taking input, he dose try to get Scott on the same side of the field, had Scott agreed he would have got some say



> The difference is that Cap isn't emotional about it because there isn't the same level of emotion towards Hope that... well, just about any mutant has towards Wanda. It's rather different.


that just supports cap's side more, because he isn't as emotional he can make level headed decisions that are for the best of every one

 In both situations Scott is making supit  Antagonistic decisions, based on paranoia, and  anger.




> It's rather easy to justify them,


no you cannot  Justify Attacking Captain America Unprovoked. When you have Namor, Emma Frost, and Magneto telling you to think twice this is a bad idea, you should take that as a sign you may be going off a slipery slope.




> Cap really doesn't have an excuse in this situation


other then th lives of every one on the planet he has sworn to protect of course. 



			
				banhammer said:
			
		

> Not to mention, Wanda is an actual mutant and with therefore some legal argument over wether or not they deserve to have her extradited, and you know, stand trial.


 She is a u.S citizen, and technically a Government officer via the avengers, she needs a military tribunal.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 20, 2012)

Why has Wanda not been setenced for her crime she killed hundreds of people yet she goes free because  she's an avenger


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## Petes12 (Apr 20, 2012)

who did she kill

besides hawkeye


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> Why has Wanda not been setenced for her crime she killed hundreds of people yet she goes free because  she's an avenger



Because she has the Hal Jordan Defense

Petes she killed, Vison, Hawkeye, Jack Of harts and Scott Lang, as well as all the mutants that lost their powers and couldn't live with out them


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## Petes12 (Apr 20, 2012)

lol jack of hearts. kind of a wash, her killing him and vision surely makes up for the fodder mutants


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> who did she kill
> 
> besides hawkeye



all the mutants who lost their powers and needed them to live

Like the fliers.
You see, if you had wings and you lost your x-gene, you'd still have wings, you'd just no longer have like, the strength to use them, so you'd just drop

Only the "pretty ones" got lucky when M-Day came around

People with three heads, those guys became the people with one head and two dead skulls hanging on their shoulders


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## shit (Apr 20, 2012)

she should be given credit for the people that would've been killed by the evil mutants she depowered


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

> She is a u.S citizen,


She's a wundagorian/german citizen


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> She's a wundagorian/german citizen



she is a  naturalized US citizen as well.




Petes12 said:


> lol jack of hearts. kind of a wash, her killing him and vision surely makes up for the fodder mutants



i personally think she should be given a medal for getting rid of Scott lang, but then she fucked that up and brought him back


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

not really, no, not since Magneto became a political leader of genosha, she never had a need to


Although it's amusing to see what else you pull out


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

What, She is a naturalized  US  citizen, she was never a citizen of genosha what the hell are you talking about


)

Com back to the real would ban.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

her father was the leader of genosha
That naturalizes her as genoshan as well as it gives her diplomatic immunity to just about anything 

Therefore the process of naturalization was never required

Quote more wiki profile details instead of actual history please


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> in consiquntial, seeing as she has crimes she needs to be tried for in the us



Her crimes occurred all over the world, but particularly against mutant kind. Your argument is like "Osama bin Laden _did_ plan 9/11... but he also committed similar acts in Britain, so the US is totally over-reacting to the British not wanting to extradite him."



> it is one life, nothing scott dose will effect the 100s she killed and thousands shes  fucked over, whether she gets justice in the us or on the scrap heap dosen't matter int he grand schme



It's one life, why hunt Osama bin Laden?

It's one life, why lock up Charles Manson?

It's one life, why hunt down escaped Nazis?

It doesn't matter to _you_. But it's fucking _moronic_ to think that to the people who they've wronged it doesn't matter.



> Except for the dozen of planets its destroyed on its way here, You basically saying that if a bull it trashing every vase in a china shop you have no proof its gonna trash a specific one at the end of the room



How many times has it been to Earth in recent years? How many different hosts have there been? And _now_ the Avengers are flipping their shit? Where were they the first half-dozen times?



> hope wasn't under arrest he was not trying to hurt her, there's a clear difference



No, he was trying to kidnap her against her will. That's the difference: Hope had committed no crime against anyone and she obviously doesn't want to leave.

Meanwhile, Wanda, a criminal of unfathomable scale towards mutant-kind who _wants_ to go with the X-Men to be tried.



> that's wrong, she was one of them, she betrayed them, she screwed allot of them over emotinaly via house of M, She killed the avengers for a while, and set in motion events that are still being felt by the team ,they are aware of the weight the situation.



That's like saying Nazis have the same weight to a US WW2 veterans as they do to a Holocaust survivor. To try and even compare them is downright foolish. She put their race on the brink of _extinction_ and is basically the impetus for all the shitty things that have happened to the in recent years. Her killing a couple Avengers isn't nearly comparable.



> Yes but tis still a terrorist action on this point, and a dumb one on his part, and shows the man  Cyclops has turned into



What's the difference between him trying to bring a genocidal criminal to justice and what Cap is doing? And again, if we are talking about "dumb" we have to remember that Cap is the guy who wanted to avoid confrontation... by walking up to Cyclops with a Helicarrier full of Avengers and demanding Hope.

At least you can _understand_ why Cyclops is emotional here. I have no understanding why Cap would do the exact opposite of what he's trying to accomplish.



> so its  ok for the  X men to walk in and attack unprovoked for  a claim of justice,



He's emotional, just like the Avengers were. The only difference is that the Avengers were all about forgiveness at that point, and that was unacceptable for him. They were looking for ways out of punishing Wanda, which is why Cyclops was so fucking pissed at being cut out of the conversation.



> but its wrong for cap to want to take some one off planet when the result will most likely be annihilation?



Like all the times a Phoenix host has been on Earth, right? I think we've been annihilated a few good times at this point.



> that is basically what your saying. Ether way Scott has shown that he thinks that  because mutants are involved he has grand  say , and that he cannot be reasoned with



I prefer what I'm saying to your "Yeah, she killed a lot of people and ruined the lives and future of Mutants... but come on. She's just one person!" That's the most abhorrent defense I can think of for someone who did what she did.



> He continues to ask him to not cause a super hero fight because of his own pride, and remember the people that he is gonna kill if he is wrong



Do you understand what 'compromise' means? It doesn't mean "stop and give me what I want".



> your' right she hasnt, which is why  cap isn't threatening to ill her, or lock her in a dungeon or, he is trying  to simply get her off planet



Did you ask her what she wants to do? Did you consult anyone else _besides_ Wolverine? No? Okay.



> the problem is is that, If  Bin laden was arrested by  the UK and brought to london, the US would have no right to try and take him illegally,



Just as Cap has no right in taking Hope as well, right?

And do honestly think that the US would stand for Britain trying and holding Bin Laden? Do you think they would "negotiate"? Or do you think they'd be mad as fucking hell that Britain hasn't already turned Bin Laden over to them because the biggest crime he committed _was against the US_.

Thanks, you've made my argument as to why Cyclops feels the way he does, and why it's understandable. The only difference is that, unlike the US, he can actually act towards his goal rather than screaming at Britain like the US would likely be forced to do.



> further more, Scott is doing this to people who respect him, who have tired to work him and help him,



Like they did during Schism, right? And all those other problems they've had? And during Children's Crusade, where they totally wanted to take the biggest criminal against mutant kind and not give them to him? It seems to me that their help has not been particularly substantial.



> and he is being an asshole, attacking them unprovoked, not even trying to negotiate



When Cap says he's not going to negotiate (And he's outright stated he wasn't), not going to leave without Hope, what else is there? It's not unprovoked: It's being pushed to last resort. Let me ask you: Who refused to leave the island after being asked to?



> He is taking input, he dose try to get Scott on the same side of the field, had Scott agreed he would have got some say



That's why he shut down any discussion and is taking Hope no matter what Scott does? How do you reconcile that idea with the pages we've seen where he says he's not discussing the matter and that he's taking her? How do you reconcile that with the fact that there is no evidence that he intends to involve the X-Men in any way, and in fact seems to believe that their involvement isn't necessary at all?



> that just supports cap's side more, because he isn't as emotional he can make level headed decisions that are for the best of every one



Actually, it doesn't. The whole point of that is that Cyclops' has made emotional decisions which lead to a fight (Though the Avengers did, too; their happiness at getting Wanda back is obviously overriding the understanding of what she has done). He has an explanation as to why he caused his fight.

For Cap... there is no explanation. There's no reason for him not to negotiate, not to try and deal with Cyclops, considering they've dealt with the Phoenix before. Instead, he walks over with a Helicarrier, says he's taking Hope, and that if he wants to talk about it he can do so _after_ he's taken her. There's no reason for him to act in such a way, especially when the X-Men have the experience they do with the Phoenix.

So what happens is Cap comes off as stupid because he has no overriding factor like emotion driving him. He's just being a dumbass and bullying the X-Men for no reason.



> In both situations Scott is making supit  Antagonistic decisions, based on paranoia, and  anger.



In Children's Crusade, it's Scott's anger and drive for retribution versus the Avengers' happiness and drive for forgiveness. They've been wronged in different ways, on different scales, thus their reactions are different. Scott's not stupid; he's angry because he finally has the person who has put mutants on the brink of extinction, and the Avengers won't give her up.

With the Avengers, Wanda coming back is a good thing; a person who 



> no you cannot  Justify Attacking Captain America Unprovoked.



He fired a warning shot across their bow between Cap and Iron Man (right at the point where it looks like Cap's trying to get Wanda out of this). If he wanted to attack Cap, he would have nailed him instead of landing it between Cap and Iron Man.

Unless you are talking about on Utopia, at which Cap was no longer there legally (He had been told to go) and was basically stating how he was going to take Hope no matter what. That's not unprovoked at all.



> When you have Namor, Emma Frost, and Magneto telling you to think twice this is a bad idea, you should take that as a sign you may be going off a slipery slope.



Yeah, because the Avengers haven't completely missed the slippery slope throughout the entirety of Civil War, right? At least they're voicing opinions rather than "No, Cap, let's keep fighting against what the US people want. We should totally not regulate vigilantism!" and "Tony, it's totally cool to clone Thor against his will and release the Thunderbolts on Spider-Man. Can't see anything wrong with this!"

The only difference between the two is that the X-Men will at least consider the possibility that they are doing the wrong thing. The Avengers? Well, we're the fucking Avengers! We _never_ fuck up!



> other then th lives of every one on the planet he has sworn to protect of course.



Who died all the other times the Phoenix came here and the Avengers didn't deign to deal with it? The Avengers are rather late to the whole "PHOENIX IS GONNA KILL THE WORLD" thing. 



> She is a u.S citizen, and technically a Government officer via the avengers, she needs a military tribunal.



Well, technically she doesn't _need_ a military tribunal. However, it misses the point that Captain America is looking to harbor someone against their will who wants to be brought to justice by the people she wronged.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Wanda's actions are the reason why a mad man with a rocket launcher got up to himself and blew the shit out of a bus full of innocent kids


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

hope however, is the reason why tokio isn't a massive wasteland of flesh and cinder, or half of germany hasn't their brains smelt into pulp, or why there are villages in africa that haven't been slaughtered by guerrila bandits


----------



## Kanali (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen, why are you still ignoring the fact that we've seen at least 2 futures in which the Phoenix came for Hope and the Earth was fine? Not to mention the shit load of times its come before without destroying the Earth. I agree that its just bad writing that the Avengers are getting all riled up now and yet didn't give a darn all the other times the Phoenix Force came to Earth


----------



## shit (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Wanda's actions are the reason why a mad man with a rocket launcher got up to himself and blew the shit out of a bus full of innocent kids



don't remember this, when was it?


----------



## Kanali (Apr 20, 2012)

shit said:


> don't remember this, when was it?



In a New X-Men comic back in 2006. It was the Purifiers and William Stryker.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

*GREAT ZEN-AKU ARGUMENTS 
THROUGHOUT HISTORY*​
​
"We can't attack those British guys! They are just seizing our arsenals. They're doing this for the good of the British Empire, guys, and I think they are just trying to get our input on this. No need to consider this a hostile act."

​
"Commander, I think you are acting too rashly in thinking that these 'Confederates' want to attack Fort Sumter. Sure, they've lined up cannons and asked for our surrender, but they are just trying to include us in negotiations! If we attack back now, it's an unprovoked hostile attack!"

​
"Look, FDR, I know there is a Japanese fleet in the vicinity of Pearl Harbor. But if we attack them first, it's unprovoked. Just because they brought their fleet doesn't mean they intend to use it, right? We can't go off and attack someone who hasn't attacked us first, even if they totally look like they are going to."

​
"Look, they have come to us trying to negotiate. All they want is the rights to the Dutch East Indies. They aren't trying to bully us; really value our input on this."

​
"It's wrong to ask for justice for these people. Sure, they've killed thousands of people, but what will putting them on trial do? Will it bring back all those who have died? Will it put together the lives that were torn apart. Of course not. So why even bother bringing them to trial?"

​
"Hey, look, I know this Bin Laden guy has done a lot of things, but he's just one man. Nothing you do will change that he killed thousands of people. He's killed other people, too, and you don't see _them_ getting all emotional about this."


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> her father was the leader of genosha
> That naturalizes her as genoshan as well as it gives her diplomatic immunity to just about anything



her father no long rules Genosha, she is still a us citizen, and she was an adult when he was doing his shit, his legal bullshit has no effect on ethr ether way



> Zen, why are you still ignoring the fact that we've seen at least 2 futures in which the Phoenix came for Hope and the Earth was fine? Not to mention the shit load of times its come before without destroying the Earth. I agree that its just bad writing that the Avengers are getting all riled up now and yet didn't give a darn all the other times the Phoenix Force came to Earth


 Future bull shit please but if were playing that game, we've also seen 2 futures where hope goes insane and kills a shit ton of people. [bishops and an issue of Astonishing X-men]

any way The PF coming to earth before is inconsiquntial because right no in the present, its  killing populated planets on it way here.


----------



## shit (Apr 20, 2012)

holding wanda to blame for stryker and the purifiers is silly


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> her father no long rules Genosha, she is still a us citizen, and she was an adult when he was doing his shit, his legal bullshit has no effect on ethr ether way



Just because he no longer ruler of Genosha doesn't necessarily negate her citizenship. Also it doesn't matter if she's an adult; there's precedent for such things in newly-formed countries.

But why are you bringing it up? My whole point was that she wanted to go _willingly_. Hope _doesn't_. _*YOU*_ are the one that brought the pointless citizenship thing into it. Would you not have gone after Osama bin Laden because he was in Pakistan?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

shit said:


> holding wanda to blame for stryker and the purifiers is silly





> she should be given credit for the people that would've been killed by the evil mutants she depowered



​


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

shit said:


> holding wanda to blame for stryker and the purifiers is silly



Her actions created the galvanizing momentum of genocidal maniacs convinced that God was telling them to finish off the rest

Actions she made because she was having daddy issues

Maybe she should claim insanity, but that is for a trial to decide

Considering people like wolverine who have an entire mood set for mindlessly killing anyone, specially own allies, without any thought or remorse, I don't understand why Hope wouldn't get some sort of special treatment on account that she saves peoples by the hundreds of thousands, or millions or more

You know.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Considering people like wolverine who have an entire mood set for mindlessly killing anyone, specially own allies, without any thought or remorse, I don't understand why Hope wouldn't get some sort of special treatment on account that she saves peoples by the hundreds of thousands



But Hope could destroy the world, like all those other times the Phoenix has come to town and the Avengers just let the X-Men take care of it!

I mean, this is the equivalent of Cyclops going up to Cap and saying "Hank Pym created Ultron. We have it from our one guy who served with the Avengers that Ultron could really mess things up. We need to make sure that he doesn't do that again."


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

The Sentry could  destroy the world. So could the Hulk. So could the other hulk. So could Thor. So could Wanda. So could Iron Man. So could Vision. So could Jhonny Storm

The Phoenix however, can save the universe. It's intent is only for it to burn that which stagnates.
The cancers of the universe
Like Zen Aku's arguments.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Hell, Hank Pym made a robot that went on an universal threat rampage at least twice in the past five years or so and no one is talking about shooting him into space.

at least the phoenix has a positive criteria

Like the time where it helped save the universe


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

*GREAT ZEN-AKU ARGUMENTS 
IN FICTION!*
​
"Look, Joffrey is just being diplomatic. He's just using this as a starting point to bargain with Ned Stark. He's trying to work _with_ him, and Ned Stark is just being really stupid about all this."


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

It's more like, Joffrey has already chopped off Ned Stark's head and it's totally Robb's fault for forcing the lannister to assemble their bannermans against him


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

I swear to God, if Rogers pulled that shit on my island, my first phone call would be to doctor victor vondon doom

Second, I'd get Hela on the line

Third, Cytorak

Fourth, the Celestials


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm kind of boggled as to why Panther is on board with this, too. If the same thing were happening to Wakanda, he'd be having a fucking _shit fit_.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm surprised T'Chala didn't raise an objection to bring a bunch of class 100's to a slap fest next to the st andreas fault
I never bought the "genius black panther" thing, but I always respected that he was one of the few heroes with some god damned common sense


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I'm surprised T'Chala didn't raise an objection to bring a bunch of class 100's to a slap fest next to the st andreas fault
> I never bought the "genius black panther" thing, but I always respected that he was one of the few heroes with some god damned common sense



Yeah, but then again we are talking about a team that has Dr. Stephen "Oh, Hulk is coming to get me because I shot him into space? Better invoke the power of something which was so powerful that Dormammu, Eternity, and a couple other incredible cosmic powers had to combine their strengths to stop him so I can prevent Hulk from getting me and me alone. I'm sure nothing can go wrong with this incredibly selfish plan!" Strange.

... Why are the Avengers the team we want to trust again?


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

You don't understand

stephen is _just one person_


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> You don't understand
> 
> stephen is _just one person_



...

I JUST REALIZED THE PLOT TWIST.

*THE AVENGERS DON'T WANT TO TAKE HOPE AWAY. THEY WANT HOPE TO JOIN.*

"World-destroying power? Well, shit, who among us haven't tried to destroy the Earth on a bad day. Tell Tony to stop imprisoning people in Space Guantanamo, tell Hank to stop building his next version of Ultron, and tell Stephen to stop fucking up reality. We have to meet our new recruit!"


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Oh no Danny Rand, our popularity is down. Quickly, pop that unarmed woman in mouth while stephen prepares some magical waterboarding


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Natasha, shoot some more innocent people in the ass. Nor-Varr, try not to white out and kill more innocent tenagers by violently breaking their necks before they can blink again



Lord of Atlantis is down there. He is a known ally to both the X-Men, the Fantastic Four, Capitan America but also to Doctor Doom, Loki and Norman Osboron.
But he is reluctant to attack us.

 Go smack him in the face Luke Cage, as far underwater as possible!


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Scott, I'm disgusted with your treatment of prisoners and simply can't trust you with them. I mean, if I gave you Wanda, would you torture her?

I'm sorry, but I can't let you do that. Only Moon Knight and Black Widow are allowed to torture people _my_ watch.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Hey, Spidey, remember that time you completely trusted me with your life, then I betrayed you, ruined your life, got your aunt shot, and then you had to make a deal with Mephisto giving up your happy marriage and future daughter so that you can live in your Octogenarian's aunt's basement?

Me neither. Now let's go to Utopia and try to kidnap a girl from the only family she has because we think she might be a threat, despite the numerous times she's saved the world.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Pym, drop your affairs as a headmaster of a school for teenagers and come grab some innocent girl turkey leg.
While you're at it, do invite pietro to join you. God knows how he loves to help the avengers apprehend potentially dangerous mutants that are in a no way similar situation to that of his sister in which he broke the world over


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Meanwhile we'll have the most volatile technological man on earth violate a sentient and very temperamental being's AI system sovereignty 

Hopefully, this extremely advanced alien computer that makes Ultron blush won't get pissed off.

Nor will the data-god that is her child.


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

While your at it Pym grab X-23 while your at it...I;m sure she wouldn't mind attacking her former team mates...it's not like she's the host of a cosmic entity who would sympathize with Hope's plight

Better yet Pym when we corral up the teenagers later let's imprison them inyour academy where said dormant host for Captain Universe currently lives


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Don't worry about where we are going to keep her. We still have some of those holding cells from back when we were taking vigilantes off the streets and imprisoning them in a space gulag without trial. And since it only happened two years go, I think they got wi-fi installed in there. Good thing we didn't redecorate too much!


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Daredevil!
Stop being an evil shogun overlord of shadowland and go beat some indians up with your club


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

They think they can save the world for free?! Well, we'll show them what good old American federal tax dollars pays for. Fly one of our dozen multi-billion dollar helicarriers over the island. I'm sure they won't interpret that as a threat and shoot it down immediately.

And it's not like we're going to be paying for it out of _our_ pocket if they do.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Hey Tony Stark! Over there! there's a woman who can instantly read our minds and sort out all bullshit and instantly download the points of view of everyone onto everyone else's brains and therefore instantly sparing any remote need for violence!
A literal diplomacy machine that takes nothing but a minute to handle.
If she naps in between
She'll be instantly able to tell everyone who is genuinely concerned and who's nothing but a bastard!

Quickly, inject her shockfull of lobotomy clouds!


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Guy Gardner said:


> Her crimes occurred all over the world, but particularly against mutant kind. Your argument is like "Osama bin Laden _did_ plan 9/11... but he also committed similar acts in Britain, so the US is totally over-reacting to the British not wanting to extradite him."


 he comited crimes in The UK too what makes the us special in this scinario





> It's one life, why hunt Osama bin Laden?
> 
> It's one life, why lock up Charles Manson?
> 
> ...


 don't take this out of context ,Scott  is attacking allies over the fate of one life





> How many times has it been to Earth in recent years? How many different hosts have there been? And _now_ the Avengers are flipping their shit? Where were they the first half-dozen times?


 Doesn't matter this time is different, because its actively killing every thing that stands in its way





> No, he was trying to kidnap her against her will. That's the difference: Hope had committed no crime against anyone and she obviously doesn't want to leave.


 actually we don't know  that,  scott didn't give her a choice, she never got a say, Its not kidnapping ether, he isn't Taking her for personal game, he is relocating, if a guy breaks out of jail and every one knows he is coming for a specific person, the government will take that person into protective costudy




> Meanwhile, Wanda, a criminal of unfathomable scale towards mutant-kind who _wants_ to go with the X-Men to be tried.


 and magneto and X-man stopped her, and yet Cyke attacked Cap...hmmm





> That's like saying Nazis have the same weight to a US WW2 veterans as they do to a Holocaust survivor. To try and even compare them is downright foolish. She put their race on the brink of _extinction_ and is basically the impetus for all the shitty things that have happened to the in recent years. Her killing a couple Avengers isn't nearly comparable.


 Wanda's actions but the civil war into motion so the "she cause all that " argument goes for them,




> What's the difference between him trying to bring a genocidal criminal to justice and what Cap is doing? And again, if we are talking about "dumb" we have to remember that Cap is the guy who wanted to avoid confrontation... by walking up to Cyclops with a Helicarrier full of Avengers and demanding Hope.


he didn't start off demanding her, and after Scott's bullshit cap is completely justified into bringing his back up encase  Cyclops felt like being a dumb ass, any  way the differences is scott  made an unprovoked attack, over a matter that seems petty compared to the current circumstance



> At least you can _understand_ why Cyclops is emotional here. I have no understanding why Cap would do the exact opposite of what he's trying to accomplish.







> He's emotional, just like the Avengers were. The only difference is that the Avengers were all about forgiveness at that point,


 They were talking about  helping scotts dumbass when he attacked, and cap already said she would meet justice





> Like all the times a Phoenix host has been on Earth, right? I think we've been annihilated a few good times at this point.


don't act like it hasn't almost happened, and isn't happening to other planets int he count comic. stop ignoring it stop trying to down play it.





> I prefer what I'm saying to your "Yeah, she killed a lot of people and ruined the lives and future of Mutants... but come on. She's just one person!" That's the most abhorrent defense I can think of for someone who did what she did.


 i never said she shouldn't meet justice, i am saying scott is handled it  horibly





> Do you understand what 'compromise' means? It doesn't mean "stop and give me what I want".


 yes out of context in context it was "Shit is bad we need to fix this, but this is what needs to happen first"





> Did you ask her what she wants to do?


 he never had a chance he was almost murdered first



> Did you consult anyone else _besides_ Wolverine? No? Okay.


Hank?





> Just as Cap has no right in taking Hope as well, right?


Except he dose have right, she is going to potentially kill every thing


> *And do honestly think that the US would stand for Britain trying and holding Bin Laden?* Do you think they would "negotiate"? Or do you think they'd be mad as fucking hell that Britain hasn't already turned Bin Laden over to them because the biggest crime he committed _was against the US_.


With he current administration? yes. They would try to negotiate for  some compensation, but would Obama send a team over the pond to try and take him by force? no.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

hey mccoy, you've developed dozens of anti-phoenix devices and containment canisters, right?


Go to space on a suicide mission


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Thanks, you've made my argument as to why Cyclops feels the way he does, and why it's understandable. The only difference is that, unlike the US, he can actually act towards his goal rather than screaming at Britain like the US would likely be forced to do.


by attacking his Allies, and threatening to murder some one in cold blood





> Like they did during Schism, right? And all those other problems they've had?


 you mean the sentinel? The thing that happened on the other side of the country over the course of like an hour?

As for their other problems, the avengers have their own shit to deal with, and the few times i've seen them offer help, they gotten the "this is our bussniess" response, not to mention that "Were were you" bs works both ways, i didn't see scott leading a charge against Osborn or the serpent, i didn't see any offer of condolences when Dissembled happened





> When Cap says he's not going to negotiate (And he's outright stated he wasn't), not going to leave without Hope, what else is there? It's not unprovoked: It's being pushed to last resort. Let me ask you: Who refused to leave the island after being asked to?


Cap never said he refused to negotiate, he said he wasn't leaving with out hope, he did not say "and you cant do any thing about it" or "and that's the end of it" all he did was put his foot down after scott tried to bs him







> *he says he's not discussing the matter and that he's taking her?*


Cap never says that, He says he isn't leaving with out her,he never says he isnt gonna discuss it, the only discussion he isn't having is the "you were never there for mutants BS" read what actually happened



> How do you reconcile that with the fact that there is no evidence that he intends to involve the X-Men in any way,


 You mean ignroing that  he  Went  to the X-men first [Wolverine branch] and then went to talk to scott personally, what about that says he is unwilling to cooperate or negotiate




> Actually, it doesn't. The whole point of that is that Cyclops' has made emotional decisions which lead to a fight (Though the Avengers did, too; their happiness at getting Wanda back is obviously overriding the understanding of what she has done).


again your wrong the avengers aren't all giddy that shes back they are trying to asses the situation, in fact the first thing they try to do is see if she can fix her mess, that some scott doesn't even seem to care about he just wants blood



> For Cap... there is no explanation. There's no reason for him not to negotiate, not to try and deal with Cyclops,


Which is why he did Exactly that.



> Instead, he walks over with a Helicarrier, says he's taking Hope,


 wrong that isnt what he says, he shows up by himself and trys to negotiate first, but makes it clear at the end of the conversation what needs to happen




> He's just being a dumbass and bullying the X-Men for no reason.


 that snot bullying, your being ridiculous now, Trying to  be respectful and rationalize with some not do some thing isnt bullying.

If i try and negotiate with a bank robber, try to negotiate and work some thing out, but make it clear that if he kills a hostage he isn't leaving alive, that isn't bullying





> In Children's Crusade, it's Scott's anger and drive for retribution versus the Avengers' happiness and drive for forgiveness.


saying she will face justice and trying to figure out if she can fix her mistakes isn't forgiveness [outside her family and romantic interest but they but they were more a neutral party in that bs at the time]





> They've been wronged in different ways, on different scales, thus their reactions are different. Scott's not stupid; he's angry because he finally has the person who has put mutants on the brink of extinction, and the Avengers won't give her up.


how he handles it makes him stupid, being angry is never an excuse for your actions




> With the Avengers, Wanda coming back is a good thing


not really, she still betrayed the,. is still  a threat, and they don't know whether to lock her up or maybe give her another chance be cause her bs plot excuse





> He fired a warning shot across their bow between Cap and Iron Man


 he fired right at cap and came close to hurting him which is why Wanda cried out his name in concern, a Warning shot is still an attack btw



> Unless you are talking about on Utopia, at which Cap was no longer there legally (He had been told to go) and was basically stating how he was going to take Hope no matter what. That's not unprovoked at all.


it is unprovoked, Cap was essentially a us envoy come for peace talks with a proven hostile nation, and asking them to not  potentially kill the planet and Cyclops  tried to assassinate him, that's grounds for bombing right there





> Yeah, because the Avengers haven't completely missed the slippery slope throughout the entirety of Civil War, right? At least they're voicing opinions rather than "No, Cap, let's keep fighting against what the US people want. We should totally not regulate vigilantism!"


they shouldn't, SHRA was wrong, just  like what Osborne's Regime tried to do to the X-men was wrong, 



> "Tony, it's totally cool to clone Thor against his will and release the Thunderbolts on Spider-Man. Can't see anything wrong with this!"


Tony's mistakes are not indicative of the avengers as a whole, he is an individual

Cap hasn't  gone off the slipery slope,since hes been in charge he has made nothing but good  decisions, and many of those have benefited the scotts scrap heap



> The only difference between the two is that the X-Men will at least consider the possibility that they are doing the wrong thing.


 Really then why our they fighting right now, 

The avengers haven't done any thing wrong out side of civil war. and considering how bad tony screwed the pooch Cap and his side turned out to be right in the end






> Who died all the other times the Phoenix came here and the Avengers didn't deign to deal with it? The Avengers are rather late to the whole "PHOENIX IS GONNA KILL THE WORLD" thing.


 Last time the phoenix wasn't Destroying every thing in its path on the way here! The only reason the avengers are their is cause nova crashed and told them it was killing every thing, if the phoenix was just dropping by to say hi then cap wouldn't be there, he even says that in AVX2

The situation is different this time

Additionally by your logic when  Sinister fucked with the celestials the scotts team should of sat back and let the avengers and FF take care of it  on the grounds that they have more experience with the celstials




> Well, technically she doesn't _need_ a military tribunal. However, it misses the point that Captain America is looking to harbor someone against their will who wants to be brought to justice by the people she wronged.


she changed her mind considering she didn't go with them after the shit with doom, and hasn't  turned up on their door step


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> hey mccoy, you've developed dozens of anti-phoenix devices and containment canisters, right?
> 
> 
> Go to space on a suicide mission





gee i wonder why its not like the phoenix is in space or any thing?


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

> i didn't see scott leading a charge against Osborn or the serpent,



You mean besides:
Saving San Francisco from the Skrulls and nearly wiping out the entire invasion by themselves
Proposition X
The Battle vs K'ruth the Stone Breaker


Zen Aku is gonna Zen Aku.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Or maybe all of those asgardian souls saved by the New Mutants

Or maybe the fight against the Word War Hulk


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

They didn't do that out of the kindness of their hearts



Banhammer said:


> The Battle vs K'ruth the Stone Breaker.


So the guy retreats and you just  go "welp not our problem any more"

Well that certainly sounds like scott



> Proposition X


 must not of been that big of a deal considering they didn't show up to help in the final fight against the man.


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> gee i wonder why its not like the phoenix is in space or any thing?



It doesn't matter. Beast shouldn't be up there period. Steve if he was acting smart would have had Strange pull a favor and get The Surfer up there. I wouldn't be sending somebody like Hank to combat The Phoenix i'd be sending every hitter currently residing on the planet up there...and then you know have Thor get the Asgardians as well. 

That is something he should have done before meeting with Scott...after that he should have gone to scott and sat him down and actually have been willing to listen and come up with a goddamn plan that wouldn't have pissed off the next host for an abstract


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Hi, my name is Zen Aku, and this is me ignoring the subsequent foundation of a free team with the goals of handling global catastrophe events like those in the future, as if that won't make me look like a clown


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

An unstoppable force is coming our way and there's nothing we can do to stop it. And it's all scott summer's fault for having a potential for a peaceful and manageable solution over it
Let's load a helicarrier and get him!


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

And kick the telepath in the mind nuts, just in case she can see through our bullshit


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Hi, my name is Zen Aku, and this is me ignoring the subsequent foundation of a free team with the goals of handling global catastrophe events like those in the future, as if that won't make me look like a clown



And yet, they Didn't show up to help with the hammer war, or with the mess the FF were dealing with, or spider-island, hell count nefraia is playing in their back yard and  they don't even know or care


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

No time to waste in asking for help with the most scientifically advanced brain trust in the world, after the Future Foundation


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Hank, Pym, Tony >>>>>the X-club many times over



Banhammer said:


> An unstoppable force is coming our way and there's nothing we can do to stop it. And it's all scott summer's fault for having a potential for a peaceful and manageable solution over it
> Let's load a helicarrier and get him!



Wow you really do live in your own world

Nothing about  Scott solution is manageable, also considering the shit scott pulled its a good idea to bring Back up encase he tries to murder you


here is Scotts plan "unstoppable force of destruction is coming right at us? lets just give it the girl with unstable powers and hope for the best, whats that steve you want to try and prevent that by taking her off planet so it wont come to earth? Fuck you die"


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> And yet, they Didn't show up to help with the hammer war, or with the mess the FF were dealing with, or spider-island, hell count nefraia is playing in their back yard and  they don't even know or care



Didnd't the hammer debacle last like at most a day or so...as far as we know that could have been coinciding with the "Everyone is Sinister" incident or they could have been busy fighting the rogue strain of the Phalanx that Sinister released...or Tabulas Rasa could have been happening.

The X-men were there for Spider-Island. Herc got spider powers went nuts and kicked the shit out of Wolverine, Gambit and Emma. I'm sure Emma has very vivid memories of that fiasco as Herc had gotten so drunk that her telepathy backfired on her

It's not like Count Nefaria's hasn't been keeping a low profile though keep in mind the only real person aware of him was Moon Knight and who the hell is going to listen to him.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

> And yet, they Didn't show up to help with the hammer war,


Except the part where they beat back the stone breaker and save Hela, which makes you a liar


> or with the mess the FF were dealing with,


Except neither did the avengers and should the X-men have interfered, which they did since the reason why there's no opressive celestial intervention at this moment is thanks to them, but should they have done so directly, they would have wrecked the secretive time line FF to begin with was keeping them all under and thus ended the universe

Which makes you an inane liar





> > or spider-island,
> 
> 
> they were there for spider island you inane liar
> ...


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> It doesn't matter. Beast shouldn't be up there period.


 is ban is right [doubtfull] then that's where hank belongs
 Steve if he was acting smart would have had Strange pull a favor and get The Surfer up there.



> I wouldn't be sending somebody like Hank to combat The Phoenix i'd be sending every hitter currently residing on the planet up there


 outside of the hulk and thing [and really what the hell would they do?] that's where all the heaviest heaviest hitters are, Thor, Cap britan, Ms marvel, Protector, Vison, who else currently appearing should he have sent, maybe tony but he needed him encase things go south like they did



> after that he should have gone to scott and sat him down and actually have been willing to listen and come up with a goddamn plan


which is what he tried to do , they din't get that far



> that wouldn't have pissed off the next host for an abstract


If hope can control it then  her being pissed off is irrelevant.

also no one is  giving Scott crap for not even asking hope what she thought,


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

WHERE WERE THE X-MEN IN THE SERPENT WAR
They were using every trick to try and stop Stone Breaker
NOWHERE
Right there, using every trick to try and stop Stone Breaker
YOU LIVE IN YOUR OWN LITTLE WORLD


:allofmychips.jpg


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Zen-aku said:


> he comited crimes in The UK too what makes the us special in this scinario



The Nazis committed war crimes against the Americans as well. Putting them on the same level as what occurred to the Jews and Russians is completely ignorant. There's a different scale as to what happened, and it misses the situational context of what is going on. Just like you missed the situational context of what happened in CC.



> don't take this out of context ,Scott  is attacking allies over the fate of one life



I'm not taking it out of context. I'm _bringing_ context. By simplifying it, _you_ are taking it out of context; you are ignoring why Scott is attacking allies, who the one life is and what she's done. I now have doubts about what you think "context" actually is.



> Doesn't matter this time is different, because its actively killing every thing that stands in its way



It's trillions killed before! Where were the Avengers _then_? The X-Men have handled the Phoenix before without Avengers help. 



> actually we don't know  that,  scott didn't give her a choice, she never got a say,



Except that she clearly wants to fight the Avengers. She remarks that "she's the biggest gun there is". That would make me think that she is not keen on this whole "Avengers taking her" thing.



> Its not kidnapping ether, he isn't Taking her for personal game, he is relocating, if a guy breaks out of jail and every one knows he is coming for a specific person, the government will take that person into protective costudy



Yes, the government can _when she's a citizen of that government_. She doesn't want to go, she's done nothing wrong, she's the citizen of a different nation, and the nation does not want to give her up. That's _kidnapping_.



> and magneto and X-man stopped her, and yet Cyke attacked Cap...hmmm



They didn't stop her from committing M-Day. She's still guilty of that! Cyke fired a warning shot because he was angry that the Avengers seemed to think that they could keep them out of the loop on what was going on.



> Wanda's actions but the civil war into motion so the "she cause all that " argument goes for them,



Civil War was set into motion because of a completely unrelated incident. While what happened with Wanda may have influenced arguments, it was brought about because of "unexperienced heroes" acting "without accountability". That's not the same as destroying the mutant population, which has been the driving factor in _every major X-Men event_.



> he didn't start off demanding her, and after Scott's bullshit cap is completely justified into bringing his back up encase  Cyclops felt like being a dumb ass, any  way the differences is scott  made an unprovoked attack, over a matter that seems petty compared to the current circumstance



They said they were going to take her. He said he wasn't leaving without her. He said he wasn't going to discuss the matter at this time. 

That's demanding. You yourself have said it was an ultimatum. You can't dispute what you've basically already agreed to!



> They were talking about  helping scotts dumbass when he attacked, and cap already said she would meet justice



And I'm sure US citizens would be okay with Osama bin Laden being imprisoned in the UK, never to be tried for his crimes against the US (since they aren't extraditing him).



> don't act like it hasn't almost happened, and isn't happening to other planets int he count comic. stop ignoring it stop trying to down play it.



Don't ignore the fact that half the major Avengers have nearly killed the planet at one time or another. Don't ignore the fact that the X-Men have dealt with the Phoenix successfully on numerous occasions without the help of the Avengers. The Avengers suddenly saying "We are taking the lead on this one" is completely bullshit considering they have _no experience in dealing with it_.



> i never said she shouldn't meet justice, i am saying scott is handled it  horibly



I'm saying that your argument regarding that is completely unreasonable. Blowing off what Wanda did does not make your argument stronger; it makes your argument weaker because you completely miss why Cyclops is acting the way he is.



> yes out of context in context it was "Shit is bad we need to fix this, but this is what needs to happen first"



That's not out of context. You need to review what context means: the context of the quote is that Cap wants Scott to do what Cap thinks is right. That happens to be taking Hope away from the X-Men. _You_ seem to think that making thing more vague is "context". It's not; it's specificity.



> he never had a chance he was almost murdered first



You also seem to have a problem with the linear progression of events as well. If you are going to ask first, you need to _ask first_. You can't "Well, I would have asked if Cyclops didn't shoot me after I said I wasn't leaving without her." Also, the idea of "I'm not leaving without her" implies that her opinion on the matter _doesn't_ matter.



> Hank?



Except it only shows them consulting Wolverine, and Cap never corrects him. Seems like you'd want to correct such a man on a serious misconception, but I guess Cap missed that lesson on diplomacy, too.



> Except he dose have right, she is going to potentially kill every thing



By that logic, the X-Men can kidnap half of the Avengers because they've shown the ability to do the same thing. Considering the X-Men have actual experience with the Phoenix Force compared to the Avengers, I'll take the experienced guys on this.



> With he current administration? yes. They would try to negotiate for  some compensation, but would Obama send a team over the pond to try and take him by force? no.



Way to miss out on the context (there's that word again!) of what I said: I said that obviously they would be _angry_ at Britain refusing to extradite him for obvious reasons. It was meant to be a comparison as to what the X-Men feel about the Avengers holding onto Wanda and say "Justice will be done".


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

> HERE WERE THE X-MEN IN THE SERPENT WAR
> They were using every trick to try and stop Stone Breaker
> NOWHERE
> Right there, using every trick to try and stop Stone Breaker
> YOU LIVE IN YOUR OWN LITTLE WORLD


Where were they at the end hmm? the Final battle, the stone breaker was their kicking ass, why didn't the X-men come to help finish what they started hmm?

that's what i thought


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Where were they at the end hmm? the Final battle, the stone breaker was their kicking ass, why didn't the X-men come to help finish what they started hmm?
> 
> that's what i thought



Probabaly cleaning up all the damage that thier failed plans had caused...god knows what the collateral was for Magneto's battleship toss or the plan with Avalanche...or the Kamikaze Rocklside plan


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

She is litteraly the "Hope" of mutantkind who has suffered through lifetimes of woe and sacrifice.

Hey lets nab her

BUT SCOTT WHY SO SERIOUS
U live in a world apart, I'm respecting your authoritah.

Delicious thread is delicious


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Where were they at the end hmm? the Final battle, the stone breaker was their kicking ass, why didn't the X-men come to help finish what they started hmm?
> 
> that's what i thought



You mean, the fifteen minutes of "battle" where san francisco had every gun cannon and slingshot aimed at utopia?
When most of the team was hospitalized from the battle


The X-Men where in Hel saving Hela 


You thought.
What a delightful surprise.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Except the part where they beat back the stone breaker and save Hela, which makes you a liar


  Hammer war wasn't Fear Itself




> Except neither did the avengers


 we aren't talking about the avengers we are talking about the X-men, they weren't there to help the FF, if were gonna point fingers were gonna point fingers




> they were there for spider island you inane liar


i was mistaken



> Except they have no lawful mandate to act in california,


But they do all the time.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Straw grasping and more inanery. There's not even any more ass in you for me to hand back.


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Hammer war wasn't Fear Itself
> 
> 
> we aren't talking about the avengers we are talking about the X-men, they weren't there to help the FF, if were gonna point fingers were gonna point fingers
> ...



Again Hammer war lasted at most a couple days and it probabaly coincided with one of the X-Men's missions

and interfere with the set timeline...even if they had tried somebody would have stopped them i'm sure

Yes under the radar...or when one of thier villains pop up like Sinister. Taking down Nefaria would have been neither


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> You mean, the fifteen minutes of "battle" where san francisco had every gun cannon and slingshot aimed at utopia?
> When most of the team was hospitalized from the battle


 they still had members that could have helped in the final battle, if Scotts gonna bitch about the avengers  not showing up at every crisis they have, then  it works both ways, scott had plenty of capable combatants  including the new uber  Colossus they could of left to help while every thing was safe


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> they still had members that could have helped in the final battle, if Scotts gonna bitch about the avengers  not showing up at every crisis they have, then  it works both ways, scott had plenty of capable combatants  including the new uber  Colossus they could of left to help while every thing was safe



I wouldn't have trusted Piotr in a open battlefield with friendlies around yet. not when he had just gotten the enchantment.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Yes under the radar...



Utopia actually has assistance law enforcement programs, with street teams, one of them led by Dazzler for example

They just have to, you know, work as assistance to lawful agents

Unlike the Avengers however, they also have teams dedicated to clean up loose ends and physical fallout from their activities


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> I wouldn't have trusted Piotr in a open battlefield with friendlies around yet. not when he had just gotten the enchantment.



Piotr had broken bones, cracked ribs and a brand new satanic mental break down.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Even after getting the enchantment, Piotr doesn't consider himself too terribly fit for teamwork


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> *Utopia actually has assistance law enforcement programs, with street teams, one of them led by Dazzler for example*
> They just have to, you know, work as assistance to lawful agents
> 
> Unlike the Avengers however, they also have teams dedicated to clean up loose ends and physical fallout from their activities



Did not know that. where did that happen in


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Again Hammer war lasted at most a couple days and it probabaly coincided with one of the X-Men's missions


 Exactly. thank you.





> Yes under the radar...or when one of thier villains pop up like Sinister. Taking down Nefaria would have been neither



Well nefaria did kill an X-man once so he dose technically count as a villian of there's also they send the kids into the city to fight crime regularly, even if they were to do it completely under the radar they still do it


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> She is litteraly the "Hope" of mutantkind who has suffered through lifetimes of woe and sacrifice.
> 
> Hey lets nab her
> 
> ...



more ridiculousness, they didn't just go lets nab her, again she might of wanted to go along willingly, scott said it didn't matter.

also continue ignoring the  fate of the world is at balance, doesn't you look like your just  trying really  hard to make the side your opposed to sound bad at all


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

Run, run, as fast as you can, no one can catch ya, the super straw man!



Emperor Joker said:


> Did not know that. where did that happen in



I think the roster in X-Men 01 has them represented but there are more than one reference


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Exactly. thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He killed Thunderbird who was told twice to disengage and let him go, before Nefaria blew himself up...Thunderbird who was on his second mission who refused to listen to orders and had an ego almost as bad as Sunfire.

I highly doubt most of the X-Men are going to want to avenge John Proudstar at this point when they buried him and forgot him years ago. Especially when a chunk of that team is dead now


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

No thunderbird still gets mourned actually.

For what he did as an x-men, and more specifically by his brother

But that doesn't mean he gets hunted down like a dog by vigilantes and then horribly murdered

That's captain america's buddy, wolverine's department


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## Castiel (Apr 20, 2012)

Banhammer, Zen-Aku both of you settle down, don't make me actually have to do shit, stop it.


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## Banhammer (Apr 20, 2012)

you demean my elegance of words with that sentence


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 










> I'm not taking it out of context.


  YEs you are.



> you are ignoring why Scott is attacking allies, who the one life is and what she's done. I now have doubts about what you think "context" actually is.


 i am not ignoring it, it  doesn't justify it in the least, at least nto the man you are trying to make Scott out to be

Attacking your allies because you aren't getting your way is not justified, Cap didn't smack  cyke with the sheild because he wasn't cooperating





> It's trillions killed before! Where were the Avengers _then_? The X-Men have handled the Phoenix before without Avengers help.


 its never done what it is currently doing.





> Except that she clearly wants to fight the Avengers. She remarks that "she's the biggest gun there is". That would make me think that she is not keen on this whole "Avengers taking her" thing.


 she isn't keen on ether side, that's why she left utopia, she attacked more X-men on the way out then she did  Avengers btw, ether way you are guessing so its irrelevant





> Yes, the government can _when she's a citizen of that government_.  She doesn't want to go,*You don't know that]* she's done nothing wrong, she's the citizen of a different nation, and the nation does not want to give her up. That's _kidnapping_.


 her being in  a different "nation" [rolls eyes] is irrelvant considering the scale





> They didn't stop her from committing M-Day. She's still guilty of that!


Nether did the X-men 





> Cyke fired a warning shot because he was angry that the Avengers seemed to think that they could keep them out of the loop on what was going on.


 thats dumb, why would scott think that, he was standing right there, he made a unprovoked attack don't try and dress it up






> They said they were going to take her. He said he wasn't leaving without her. He said he wasn't going to discuss the matter at this time.


 he said he wasn't going to discuss Scotts Blame game. stop trying to take it out of context



> That's demanding. You yourself have said it was an ultimatum. You can't dispute what you've basically already agreed to!


 it was an ultimatum i never said other wise, but  it wasn't one that couldn't be reached with out discussion and compromise





> And I'm sure US citizens would be okay with Osama bin Laden being imprisoned in the UK, never to be tried for his crimes against the US (since they aren't extraditing him).


no they wouldn't, but it would be some thing they would have to deal with.




> Don't ignore the fact that half the major Avengers have nearly killed the planet at one time or another.


What!? Wanda is the only one that's gone on to be come a major threat



> Don't ignore the fact that the X-Men have dealt with the Phoenix successfully on numerous occasions without the help of the Avengers. The Avengers suddenly saying "We are taking the lead on this one" is completely bullshit considering they have _no experience in dealing with it_.


 1. Its  different this time with with what its doing, i bet scott didn't even know it was destroying planets till cap said it, meaning he is likely operating with less information

2. Cap has 2 avengers on his side who have delt with it hence why he wen't to them first

3. that's why cap was hoping scott would work with him.





> I'm saying that your argument regarding that is completely unreasonable. Blowing off what Wanda did does not make your argument stronger; it makes your argument weaker because you completely miss why Cyclops is acting the way he is.


 I am not blowing off what she did. I am talking about scott's actions, which were wrong, angry or not





> That's not out of context. You need to review what context means: the context of the quote is that Cap wants Scott to do what Cap thinks is right. That happens to be taking Hope away from the X-Men. _You_ seem to think that making thing more vague is "context". It's not; it's specificity.


 its about working together not whose right or wrong





> You also seem to have a problem with the linear progression of events as well. If you are going to ask first, you need to _ask first_. You can't "Well, I would have asked if Cyclops didn't shoot me after I said I wasn't leaving without her." Also, the idea of "I'm not leaving without her" implies that her opinion on the matter _doesn't_ matter.


 they are both wrong on that, i never said cap was gonna take her if she wanted to or not, i said she didn't get a choice from ether of them, Cap DIDNT get the chance to ask hope to come with him.




> Except it only shows them consulting Wolverine,


 WATX



> and Cap never corrects him. Seems like you'd want to correct such a man on a serious misconception, but I guess Cap missed that lesson on diplomacy, too.


 are you talking about when scott was shooting at him





> By that logic, the X-Men can kidnap half of the Avengers because they've shown the ability to do the same thing. Considering the X-Men have actual experience with the Phoenix Force compared to the Avengers, I'll take the experienced guys on this.


 The X-men  are  acting with less information, and i wouldn't seeing as iam human and they are gambling with my life and the life of every one i know when there is an option that would give them what they want with out the risk of me dying




> Way to miss out on the context (there's that word again!) *And your the one who keeps misusing it >insert predictible Princess Bride Quote here>* of what I said: I said that obviously they would be _angry_ at Britain refusing to extradite him for obvious reasons. It was meant to be a comparison as to what the X-Men feel about the Avengers holding onto Wanda and say "Justice will be done".


 And like i said the american people would be pissed  but they would deal they would not attack unprovoked over it though


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Zen-aku said:


> by attacking his Allies, and threatening to murder some one in cold blood



Yeah, he's going to murder someone who caused the genocide of his race, and he's pissed off that his "allies" are looking for a quick and easy path to forgiveness.



The secret word is context. Your arguments ignore it or miss it completely by turning everything into vague terms. I add detail and explain why things happen rather than just vaguely describing what happened. It's a historian thing, try and keep up.



> you mean the sentinel? The thing that happened on the other side of the country over the course of like an hour?



There are a half-dozen ways to get across the world that quick, and it's not like there are only forces in New York. It's not like he doesn't live next door to Reed fucking Richards.



> As for their other problems, the avengers have their own shit to deal with, and the few times i've seen them offer help, they gotten the "this is our bussniess" response, not to mention that "Were were you" bs works both ways, i didn't see scott leading a charge against Osborn or the serpent, i didn't see any offer of condolences when Dissembled happened



Banhammer basically dismantled this already.



> Cap never said he refused to negotiate, he said he wasn't leaving with out hope, he did not say "and you cant do any thing about it" or "and that's the end of it" all he did was put his foot down after scott tried to bs him



Are you fucking crazy? He said he was not leaving without her. If _you_ are the ones starting things, _you_ start the negotiation. The only that occurred was Scott said no, and Cap offered _nothing_ to try and change his mind. All he said was that he had hoped Scott would see it his way and that he wasn't going to discuss the matter.

The fact that Cap made an "offer" (I use the term loosely), Scott turned down the "offer", and Cap made no changes to his "offer" shows that he wasn't trying to negotiate. In the context of the situation, either Cap is a horribly poor negotiator because he didn't try to offer anything extra or he wasn't looking to negotiate and was simply telling Cyclops what he wanted to happen.



> Cap never says that, He says he isn't leaving with out her,he never says he isnt gonna discuss it, the only discussion he isn't having is the "you were never there for mutants BS" read what actually happened





That's like saying "You can discuss me taking your money later, but I need to take your money now and do what I want with it". Not only does that completely negate one's negotiating power (And since Cap is trying to negotiate with Cyclops, you'd think he'd know how quickly this is going to end any hope of actual negotiations), but it shows that he is not there to discuss anything. 

If Cyclops wants to discuss things after Cap has what he already wants, then it's okay with Cap. And I hope you see how stupid Cyclops would be to submit to that sort of thing.



> You mean ignroing that  he  Went  to the X-men first [Wolverine branch]



Wolverine is a current member of the Avengers. Did you see him talking to anyone who _wasn't_ an Avenger while he was there? No? I guess you just ignored that part.



> and then went to talk to scott personally, what about that says he is unwilling to cooperate or negotiate



The fact that all he said to Scott was "We are taking Hope. This isn't up for discussion, you just have to trust me" says that he wasn't willing to cooperate or negotiate. The fact that the X-Men were not included in the more detailed plan given in New Avengers, and that there was no plans about integrating them in discussed.



> again your wrong the avengers aren't all giddy that shes back they are trying to asses the situation, in fact the first thing they try to do is see if she can fix her mess, that some scott doesn't even seem to care about he just wants blood



The Avengers were looking for ways to get Wanda out of a real punishment. "Oh, you can do community service and then you can get help and get better!" The only one who was actually looking for justice was _Wanda_.



> Which is why he did Exactly that.



I am now convinced you have no idea what negotiation is.



> wrong that isnt what he says, he shows up by himself and trys to negotiate first, but makes it clear at the end of the conversation what needs to happen



No, he's telling Scott that's this _isn't_ a negotiation. It's the simplest, most direct, and most sensible interpretation of the events as they occurred. If it were a negotiation, he would have offered something to Scott. He _never offers anything to Scott_. He simply asks him to trust him, and when that's not good enough for Scott (imagine that!) he says he's not going to discuss this.



> that snot bullying, your being ridiculous now, Trying to  be respectful and rationalize with some not do some thing isnt bullying.



Yeah, that is. Unless a bully coming up to you pounding his fist and saying "I want your lunch money" suddenly is not bullying any more. It's a show of force meant to coerce and threaten the X-Men into yielding to Cap's demands. The



> If i try and negotiate with a bank robber, try to negotiate and work some thing out, but make it clear that if he kills a hostage he isn't leaving alive, that isn't bullying



But that _is_ bullying; that's using a threat of violence to try and get the other person to do something. It might be more acceptable in that instance, but that doesn't change what it is.

Also, that's not negotiating: Saying I'm going to kill you is a threat. Negotiating is saying you'll trade a hostage for something, or try to get something by giving something else to the other person. Cap not giving anything up or offering anything up definitively _kills_ the idea that he's negotiating with Cyclops.



> saying she will face justice and trying to figure out if she can fix her mistakes isn't forgiveness [outside her family and romantic interest but they but they were more a neutral party in that bs at the time]



No they weren't. They were her teammates, people who have seen people come back from actions like that. Hell, Tony had only recently come back from that sort of horrifying bullshit. To say they aren't happy and not trying to play up the "redemption" line in the face of the shit she has done is ignoring everything she's done. And considering the true wronged party are the X-Men, they can decide that.



> how he handles it makes him stupid, being angry is never an excuse for your actions



Being happy someone is back isn't an excuse to try and get Wanda off the hook. Both parties are guilty of letting their emotions get the best of them because the places they are coming from are completely different.



> not really, she still betrayed the,. is still  a threat, and they don't know whether to lock her up or maybe give her another chance be cause her bs plot excuse



Betraying them =/= Nearly causing mutants to go extinct. I don't know why this needs to be said, but apparently you don't get that the emotions the Avengers are feeling are far different from the ones the X-Men feel.



> he fired right at cap and came close to hurting him which is why Wanda cried out his name in concern, a Warning shot is still an attack btw



A warning shot is a warning shot. Only when you take away context (Again!) does it become just an attack.



> it is unprovoked, Cap was essentially a us envoy come for peace talks with a proven hostile nation, and asking them to not  potentially kill the planet and Cyclops  tried to assassinate him, that's grounds for bombing right there



What the fuck are you talking about?! Cap is literally playing Gunboat Diplomacy, trying to threaten Utopia into giving up Hope so that they can deal with it how they feel and cutting them out of the equation. US Envoys who try to settle things diplomatically don't normally go to the King with an Aircraft Carrier flying above him and a Special Forces team at his back.



> they shouldn't, SHRA was wrong, just  like what Osborne's Regime tried to do to the X-men was wrong,



It needs to be regulated. There are plenty of points on the liability side, let alone the idea that "might makes police power" problem. The Punisher and his imitators are the counterpoint to your idea. The only thing that was wrong about it was that it was written so horribly that the SHRA became Fascism and anyone who sided with it came off as massively out of character.



> Tony's mistakes are not indicative of the avengers as a whole, he is an individual



Other Avengers were there on his side, and everything he did has huge, far-reaching implications. Don't talk about the "Slippery Slope" when the Avengers tend to have more of a problem with it than the X-Men.



> Cap hasn't  gone off the slipery slope,since hes been in charge he has made nothing but good  decisions, and many of those have benefited the scotts scrap heap



...Like? Remember that point in Fear Itself #2, where Cap's like "I don't know what to do", and instead of coming up with a plan he decided it was a great time to go sky-gliding? I think that was just before the X-Men had to save the West Coast because the Avengers were nowhere to be found.



> Really then why our they fighting right now,



Because Cap came in with an ultimatum and refused to actually talk about compromise and negotiate? Or at least negotiate in a way that wouldn't make Neville Chamberlain say "Wow, Utopia is getting fucked in this deal."


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

> The avengers haven't done any thing wrong out side of civil war. and considering how bad tony screwed the pooch Cap and his side turned out to be right in the end



Not really. The whole idea of having super-teams in different states and training new heroes and giving them support and equipment to help them out is brilliant. The problem with it was that it was poorly implemented. Point in case: Is there a team on the West Coast right now? If not, _why not_? Are they simply relying on the X-Men's goodwill?



> Last time the phoenix wasn't Destroying every thing in its path on the way here! The only reason the avengers are their is cause nova crashed and told them it was killing every thing, if the phoenix was just dropping by to say hi then cap wouldn't be there, he even says that in AVX2



The Phoenix destroys planets and suns and all sorts of things all the fucking time! The people who have the most experience with the situation are the X-Men; Cap should fall in-line behind Cyclops rather than trying to deal with something that he is so unfamiliar with that part of the plan is to have the smartest guys in the room come up with a plan while they delay the thing!



> The situation is different this time



How? It's not like the Phoenix Force hasn't killed planets before. This comes off more like this is the first time the Avengers realized anything about it happening.





> Additionally by your logic when  Sinister fucked with the celestials the scotts team should of sat back and let the avengers and FF take care of it  on the grounds that they have more experience with the celstials



Uh, no, my logic would dictate that because they've dealt with _Sinister_, they should take the lead since they understand the actual impetus behind the event.

Let's look at how _you_ would plan it out:


Cap would go to Wolverine to get a consultation about how to deal with this.
Wolverine would tell him that Cyclops is generally a part of Sinister's plans.
Cap would then reason that they should put Cyclops in protective custody against his will, using part of the Avenger part of the Avengers to capture him if he refuses. The other Avengers will be tasked with thinking up a plan since they've never dealt with Sinister before while another group tries to hold off Sinister.



> she changed her mind considering she didn't go with them after the shit with doom, and hasn't  turned up on their door step



Yeah, I can see that's  she's just watching TV and writing in a dream journal. I'm sure that's exactly the sort of "hard-line" justice that the Avengers were talking at. I'll bet they don't even let her get NetFlix!

It's good to know that the Avengers completely let Wanda off the hook, which is exactly why he didn't want to trust them with it in the first place. Glad to see they _competely justified his actions and worries_ about how they would treat her. Also funny to see you be such a hypocrite in that you totally think she should die, but rip on Cyclops for opposing the Avengers taking her _and grounding her like she's a 14-year-old girl who went out past curfew_.

Justice, people!


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 20, 2012)

I thought every state had a team, just most of them were a bunch of nobodies we never read about. 

wasn't it cali that had the team led by pepper potts a while back?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Zen-aku said:


> YEs you are.



Just declaring that I am doesn't actually mean that I am. I justified my viewpoint. Or is this the sort of "debate and negotiation" that you learned from Captain America?



> i am not ignoring it, it  doesn't justify it in the least, at least nto the man you are trying to make Scott out to be



Yes, you are. By simplifying things you are ignoring context.



> Attacking your allies because you aren't getting your way is not justified,



Which means Cap probably shouldn't have brought that Helicarrier.



> Cap didn't smack  cyke with the sheild because he wasn't cooperating



That's because Cap was told to leave and refused to do so. It was obvious that he was going to take Hope by whatever means necessary, so Cyclops is fully justified in striking first.



> its never done what it is currently doing.



Destroying planets? Yeah, totally a new thing for it.



> she isn't keen on ether side, that's why she left utopia, she attacked more X-men on the way out then she did  Avengers btw, ether way you are guessing so its irrelevant



Yeah, her totally looking down at the fighting going on and saying that she should be in there means she _totally_ doesn't agree with the X-Men on this. Maybe if Cap hadn't attacked they could have actually kept her under control instead of having to hide her from people attempting to kidnap and now kill her.



> her being in  a different "nation" [rolls eyes] is irrelvant considering the scale



Well, not if you're a fascist who believes might is right. But for us regular people, it does. And if it's "irrelevant considering the scale", shouldn't that be applied to Wanda's actions as well, as they were on a "reality-changing" scale.



> Nether did the X-men  thats dumb, why would scott think that, he was standing right there, he made a unprovoked attack don't try and dress it up



No, it's a "warning shot". You still can't master the idea of "context", can you?




> he said he wasn't going to discuss Scotts Blame game. stop trying to take it out of context



He didn't say "I'm tired of listening to your blame game", he said "If you want to discuss it, fine. But we aren't discussing it now." Jesus Christ, reach reality already.



> it was an ultimatum i never said other wise, but  it wasn't one that couldn't be reached with out discussion and compromise



Discussion which Cap didn't want to have, and compromise which he never offered. "Doing what Cap wants" is _not_ compromise.



> no they wouldn't, but it would be some thing they would have to deal with.
> 
> Okay, deal with not getting Hope, since she's not a criminal and the X-Men have a history of dealing well with the Phoenix Force. Oh wait, then wouldn't be a complete hypocrite.
> 
> ...



You mean just going to Wolverine. He has yet to mention Beast at all in any of the issues, even the expanded-on parts like New Avengers.



> 3. that's why cap was hoping scott would work with him.



"Working with you" does not mean "I take Hope and you write a letter about your problems with what I did". It means consulting the source and seeing what you can do together about that. Cap didn't show up to talk, he showed up to take Hope. It's indisputable, no matter how much you want to spin or ignore what actually happened.



> I am not blowing off what she did. I am talking about scott's actions, which were wrong, angry or not



WANDA'S ACTIONS ARE INTEGRAL TO WHY SCOTT IS ACTING THE WAY HE IS. CAUS-FUCKING-ALITY, YOU KNOW.

And again, you're okay with Wanda getting a slap on the wrist, since that's all that has happened to her so far. Great job, Avengers!



> its about working together not whose right or wrong



Which is why Cap tried to take Hope away without ever offering anything to Cyclops. "Working together" and "The Avengers are taking Hope" do not sync.



> they are both wrong on that, i never said cap was gonna take her if she wanted to or not, i said she didn't get a choice from ether of them, Cap DIDNT get the chance to ask hope to come with him.



When the telepathic mind-reader says that he's not leaving without her, it doesn't matter what she thinks, just like it doesn't matter what Cyclops thinks. Cap was taking her and sending her into space; he never said he was negotiating or made any offers or any concessions. He outright stated that we wasn't going to discuss his actions right now, he said that he just wanted Scott to trust him on this one.



> WATX



Probably should have included it in the other two books rather than just having him talk with Wolverine. But whatever; the first person he should have consulted with was _Cyclops_, the guy who has basically stood next to ever Phoenix Host in the last 10 years. If he _consulted_ with Cyclops, maybe they could of reached something. Instead, he showed up with a Helicarrier on his door.



> are you talking about when scott was shooting at him



I mean it's the fourth sentence Scott utters in a 3-page conversation. But I suppose we don't want facts messing with your argument.



> The X-men  are  acting with less information, and i wouldn't seeing as iam human and they are gambling with my life and the life of every one i know when there is an option that would give them what they want with out the risk of me dying



The information being "The Phoenix Force is destroying planets", something it has done many times before. Considering that the Avengers lack experience in the Phoenix, _they_ are acting with less information. They have no context for what the Phoenix Force is doing, nor comparing to what has happened previously.

You know, consulting the _real_ experts in the _real_ X-Men would have probably given them a better plan than "Delay until we figure out a plan".



> And like i said the american people would be pissed  but they would deal they would not attack unprovoked over it though



Because it's on a governmental scale, not a supergroup scale. The Avengers and the X-Men, despite having governmental responsibilities, can operate on different scales diplomatically than the government.

You know, like the Avengers letting Wanda sit on her ass doing nothing. WHOO JUSTICE


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I thought every state had a team, just most of them were a bunch of nobodies we never read about.
> 
> wasn't it cali that had the team led by pepper potts a while back?



Yeah, the Order. That was right after Civil War. The 50-State Initiative doesn't exist any more, does it? I thought it got dismantled by Osbourne or at least after Osbourne was done.

If it's not, why the hell has Cap not been sending the West Coast to whatevers to at least help out? California is the most populous state in the Union; you'd think they'd spread out a bit and most things that destroy the X-Men will eventually kill a lot of people.


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 







Guy Gardner said:


> Yeah, he's going to murder someone who caused the genocide of his race, and he's pissed off that his "allies" are looking for a quick and easy path to forgiveness.


" Iam Scott Summers  i fight for the rights of all mutants, whats this she might be abel to fix my dying species ? Dont care Die!" 

He is  more obsessed with "justice" then actually doing some thing productive.





> The secret word is context. Your arguments ignore it or miss it completely by turning everything into vague terms. I add detail and explain why things happen rather than just vaguely describing what happened. It's a historian thing, try and keep up.


 no i am the one trying to keep things in context, you are trying to distort it, or excuse it





> There are a half-dozen ways to get across the world that quick, and it's not like there are only forces in New York. It's not like he doesn't live next door to Reed fucking Richards.


 again, that shit works both ways, they have their own things to do, and not every crisis requires a cross over





> Banhammer basically dismantled this already.


 no he didn't he made him self look like jackass and i was proven right in the end





> Are you fucking crazy? He said he was not leaving without her. If _you_ are the ones starting things, _you_ start the negotiation. The only that occurred was Scott said no, and Cap offered _nothing_ to try and change his mind. All he said was that he had hoped Scott would see it his way and that he wasn't going to discuss the matter.


 again Cap never said he wasn't going to discuss it



> The fact that Cap made an "offer" (I use the term loosely), Scott turned down the "offer", and Cap made no changes to his "offer" shows that he wasn't trying to negotiate. In the context of the situation, either Cap is a horribly poor negotiator because he didn't try to offer anything extra or he wasn't looking to negotiate and was simply telling Cyclops what he wanted to happen.


 they were discussing what they should  do, cap was trying to appeal to him





> That's like saying "You can discuss me taking your money later, but I need to take your money now and do what I want with it". Not only does that completely negate one's negotiating power (And since Cap is trying to negotiate with Cyclops, you'd think he'd know how quickly this is going to end any hope of actual negotiations), but it shows that he is not there to discuss anything.


 See you just took that out of context again

What Cap is saying he isn't going to Discuss is Scott's spiel about "when were you ever here for mutants" Cap trys to go from that right it no Them working together, stop making things up



> If Cyclops wants to discuss things after Cap has what he already wants, then it's okay with Cap. And I hope you see how stupid Cyclops would be to submit to that sort of thing.


No cap was trying to discuss it all there and them Cyke is the one that ended the conversation





> Wolverine is a current member of the Avengers. Did you see him talking to anyone who _wasn't_ an Avenger while he was there? No? I guess you just ignored that part.


 that's because there was only 3 people there worth talking to, one is in a coma, and the other 2 are avengers




> The fact that all he said to Scott was "We are taking Hope. This isn't up for discussion, you just have to trust me" says that he wasn't willing to cooperate or negotiate. The fact that the X-Men were not included in the more detailed plan given in New Avengers, and that there was no plans about integrating them in discussed.


again You are talkaign his words out of context

the more detailed plan given to the avengers was step one getting hope, first they had to get her how that happened was up for speculation, had cyke said yes i bet you they would of had seats-during the next stage of planing





> The Avengers were looking for ways to get Wanda out of a real punishment.


 no they were looking for ways to see if she could fix what she did





> I am now convinced you have no idea what negotiation is.


no i just no know how the grown ups negotiate.





> No, he's telling Scott that's this _isn't_ a negotiation. It's the simplest, most direct, and most sensible interpretation of the events as they occurred. If it were a negotiation, he would have offered something to Scott. He _never offers anything to Scott_. He simply asks him to trust him, and when that's not good enough for Scott (imagine that!)


 He didn't get a chance to offer anything hell he has nothing to offer, other then telling him that they need to work together, Scott is the one that needed to ask for some thing, he has what Steve wants, if Scott dint want the fight he could of made some easy demands, he could of asked for wanda, demanded to go with what ever, instead he pushed it into a fight



> he says he's not going to discuss this.


 Stop taking that part out of context dammit and read the book closet




> Yeah, that is. Unless a bully coming up to you pounding his fist and saying "I want your lunch money" suddenly is not bullying any more.


That's not what cap did *rubs temples* not even close



> It's a show of force meant to coerce and threaten the X-Men into yielding to Cap's demands.


 that's not a show of force,cap showed up alone, to talk to a man that could kill him by looking at him asking for cooperation, that is not bullying that is not a show of force.





> But that _is_ bullying; that's using a threat of violence to try and get the other person to do something. It might be more acceptable in that instance, but that doesn't change what it is.Also, that's not negotiating: Saying I'm going to kill you is a threat. Negotiating is saying you'll trade a hostage for something, or try to get something by giving something else to the other person. Cap not giving anything up or offering anything up definitively _kills_ the idea that he's negotiating with Cyclops.


 that's not bullying  That is putting downs terms and conditions that are non negotiable, determining what isn't up for discussion is an essential part of the negotiation process, it shows both sides the lines and what not to cross, and what  both sides want as an end result.






> No they weren't. They were her teammates, people who have seen people come back from actions like that. Hell, Tony had only recently come back from that sort of horrifying bullshit.


Tony has a really good bullshit excuses, it sucks but you couldn't actually try him for what he did if you wanted  to [ok you could]




> To say they aren't happy and not trying to play up the "redemption" line in the face of the shit she has done is ignoring everything she's done. And considering the true wronged party are the X-Men, they can decide that.


 She wronged both parties, and they werent trying play up the redemption




> Being happy someone is back isn't an excuse to try and get Wanda off the hook.


 the only ones this applies to were her family and wonder man and the avengers were 100 % supporting them




> Betraying them =/= Nearly causing mutants to go extinct. I don't know why this needs to be said, but apparently you don't get that the emotions the Avengers are feeling are far different from the ones the X-Men feel.


oh  i get that there different  but they are the ones who are more likely to deal with her justly as opposed to cyclops to who was out for blood, he agreed to let it go, and as they elf rouge even told her scott will come around, ,not all the X-men fee like scott





> A warning shot is a warning shot. Only when you take away context (Again!) does it become just an attack.


 he almost injured cap, it was still an attack,i am sure you could call what Cyke did in AVX a warning shot its still a damn attack





> What the fuck are you talking about?! Cap is literally playing Gunboat Diplomacy, trying to threaten Utopia into giving up Hope so that they can deal with it how they feel and cutting them out of the equation.


Lies. he never threatened and he was trying to bring them in




> US Envoys who try to settle things diplomatically don't normally go to the King with an Aircraft Carrier flying above him and a Special Forces team at his back.


 it depends on the situation, if they go in believing their will immediate conflict they will have armed guards, and they will be ready to deploy blockades and what not, if were being completely honest if this was being dealt with realistically , any country would of snuck in seal team six style and ether killed hope ,or just do what osbourne did, with what scott did during CC they would of been able to do it with out any other country giving them shit about it as well





> It needs to be regulated. There are plenty of points on the liability side, let alone the idea that "might makes police power" problem. The Punisher and his imitators are the counterpoint to your idea. The only thing that was wrong about it was that it was written so horribly that the SHRA became Fascism and anyone who sided with it came off as massively out of character.


Putting the names of people who have enemy's the like of doctor doom in any  database is a baaaaad idea, they have secret identities for a reason, but lets drop it we have enough to argue about





> Other Avengers were there on his side, and everything he did has huge, far-reaching implications.


most of them didn't agree, and frequently let members of the other side slip through the cracks



> Don't talk about the "Slippery Slope" when the Avengers tend to have more of a problem with it than the X-Men.


 The differences is the Avengers for the issues they had,always kept in mind to save lives

Scott slope has been about mutants and mutants first





> ...Like? Remember that point in Fear Itself #2, where Cap's like "I don't know what to do", and instead of coming up with a plan he decided it was a great time to go sky-gliding? I think that was just before the X-Men had to save the West Coast because the Avengers were nowhere to be found.


I just looked through FI# 2 what the hell are you talking about? 





> Because Cap came in with an ultimatum and *refused to actually talk about compromise and negotiate?*


 thats not what he did,thats What scott did.


----------



## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Not really. The whole idea of having super-teams in different states and training new heroes and giving them support and equipment to help them out is brilliant. The problem with it was that it was poorly implemented. Point in case: Is there a team on the West Coast right now? If not, _why not_? Are they simply relying on the X-Men's goodwill?


 The AA are on the west coast,and Cap thought that they were still heroes and Thats what they would do, after this he will know better





> The Phoenix destroys planets and suns and all sorts of things all the fucking time!


no the phoenix carving a path of hapahazrd destruction on a cosmic scale while heading towards a specific point is not its usual mo



> The people who have the most experience with the situation are the X-Men; Cap should fall in-line behind Cyclops rather than trying to deal with something that he is so unfamiliar with that part of the plan is to have the smartest guys in the room come up with a plan while they delay the thing


Cap was told that, Cyke wouldn't think straight and would think this was a good thing, guess what he was told right





> How? It's not like the Phoenix Force hasn't killed planets before. This comes off more like this is the first time the Avengers realized anything about it happening.


The phoenix carving a path of hapahazrd destruction on a cosmic scale while heading towards a specific point is not its usual mo, its usual MO is weed out evolutionary dead ends [btw guess what humanit is], random destruction is new behavior







> Uh, no, my logic would dictate that because they've dealt with _Sinister_, they should take the lead since they understand the actual impetus behind the event.


 Sinister is just a run of a mill  mad scientist, the Celestial are the real threat



> Let's look at how _you_ would plan it out:
> 
> 
> Cap would go to Wolverine to get a consultation about how to deal with this.
> ...


nice straw man, actual information on what sinister wants, and what the celestials want are what would determine the course of action my logic would take




> Yeah, I can see that's  she's just watching TV and writing in a dream journal. I'm sure that's exactly the sort of "hard-line" justice that the Avengers were talking at. I'll bet they don't even let her get NetFlix!
> 
> It's good to know that the Avengers completely let Wanda off the hook, which is exactly why he didn't want to trust them with it in the first place. Glad to see they _competely justified his actions and worries_ about how they would treat her. Also funny to see you be such a hypocrite in that you totally think she should die, but rip on Cyclops for opposing the Avengers taking her _and grounding her like she's a 14-year-old girl who went out past curfew_.
> 
> Justice, people!


Did  you even read CC? she has a Hal jordan excuse, i think she should  die because of what she did and the threat she posses, but i also understand that that might not be completely just, i also acknowledge i am a spiteful human being. additionally  Scott also "let her off the hook" when he dropped the issue after all the stuff with doom. he said that if she acts up again he will kill her which is fair.


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## Petes12 (Apr 20, 2012)

jesus christ can't you guys be concise? haha


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> jesus christ can't you guys be concise? haha



Hey, I did a short bulleted list of what my argument was. Of course, I don't have to jump through a dozen hoops about what was implicitly said and how you need to look at what's not there, so I can't speak for anyone else.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 20, 2012)

Okay, let's do another quick bullet list.


The Phoenix Force has always been a cosmic force had destroyed planets before. Acting like this is something new shows an ignorance of the Phoenix Force... which makes sense for the Avengers, not the readers. 
There is no debate on what Cap did. Cap did not come to negotiate or compromise; he was taking Hope. It's outright stated by the telepath _who reads minds_. Any suggestion otherwise is ignorance at best and deliberate deception at worst.
Hope didn't want to leave. We know this from looking at her reaction to the fighting and wanting to be involved. In fact, it seems as though the fighting helped cause the spark-up with the Phoenix Force.
It makes no sense for the X-Men to simply give up Hope because the Avengers think they know better, especially given their experience.
You don't get to use the Hal Jordan excuse if you don't know that Hal Jordan took years redeeming himself despite the Parallax excuse, and that people still justifiably fear and dislike him within the Corps. _Nothing_ like that has happened with Wanda.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 









Guy Gardner said:


> > Yes, you are. By simplifying things you are ignoring context.
> 
> 
> wrong iam being very honest about the situations, and holding hima countble to his actions
> ...


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Its never done what it is currently doing

Her reaction is that she needed to stop the fighting, not that she wanted to be involved or take a side, hence why she said fuck you to both of them.

The avengers knwo from the people on their team who have had direct experiences with the phoenix that the best thing to do is to take wha tit wants and move it from earth
.

Hall jordan took years to reedem him self then it was revealed he dint need to because a big bug controlled him, now when ever try's to use that against him his freinds  bring that going "nuh uh"

Wanda wants to try and redeem her self she feels terrible, and your nuts if you don't think she is still feared and disliked, her husband the original vision told her he could never forgive her for what she did, additionally he told her that the avengers were  no longer her home or family, Thor & stark was standing right their and while tony thought he was being rough neither of them corrected vision ether


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## Zen-aku (Apr 20, 2012)

Secret Avengers Preveiw



*Spoiler*: __ 













I must say they are using their tie ins Magnificently so far, truly painting a bigger grander picture


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 21, 2012)

Yes, it has destroyed planets before. Acting like it hasn't caused that sort of destruction is ignorant of the past. Just ask the Sh'iar
"This is all because of me! *I SHOULD BE OUT THERE*." She's asking to go back and fight. If she wanted to stop the fighting, she'd just say "I need to stop this!" I have to believe that the dialogue choices are _intentional_.
Their experience is paltry compared to Scott and Emma's. It's moronic to make a decision without consulting _real_ experts.
Hal does accept what he did and he's tried to move past it. He doesn't completely deny responsibility of it. Along with this he's worked for years in other ways to redeem himself. Wanda has done all of nothing. Letting her on her sit on ass is fucking stupid for what she still has some responsibility for.
Doctor Doom did not kidnap her and take her powers. She tried to play God and bring back her sons, so she went to Doctor Doom. This doesn't seem to even be in dispute, so it's already not like Hal Jordan: Hal was infected with Parallax long before he did anything wrong. Wanda went to a dangerous man asking for dangerous things, and everyone ended up paying for it. She bears responsibility for the choice that she made, even if some of the actions afterwards were not fully her own.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 21, 2012)

It has  never Cherry picked a target light years away and destroyed every thing its path on its way their,  or to my knowledge  knock any of its previous hots into a comma to neutralize them

On the Subject of the Shiar they are also proof that having a host dosen't mean it can be controlled and stop it from mass destruction

She  wants to stop the fighting, her eagerness to get out their is  to try  and stop the fight, because at this point nether side have given a shit about her opinion

They were both there when jean went nuts, and considering the amount of Exposure Wolverine had with the phoenix and jan during Morrison run i don't see how you can call it partly, they ARE Real Experts

I agree, she dose bare some responsibility for her actions, she was overcome with the powers, so it is not entirely her fault, much like hal or jean


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## Glued (Apr 21, 2012)

Awe man, Luke Cage and Ben Grimm are double teaming Namor, I wanted a one on one fight.

Strange vs Magik on her own Turf. The good doctor needs to put that crazy chick down.

Iron Man vs Magneto, even if his suit is made of carbon nanotubes, why not rip the iron from his blood.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 21, 2012)

The five bullet points works for speed. Let's just keep to that format from now on.


The impression I get from WatX is that it has done this before, at least from the way everyone in space seems to take it. Just because it is bee-lining towards a host doesn't mean it's any different from how it usually acts. And how often do you get more than one host on the world? Quire is still awake, only Rachel went unconscious.

Hope's manifestations of the Phoenix seem to be rather different compared. Didn't one occur in Second Coming? Isn't that the whole reason why Cyclops has it in his head that the Phoenix is going to save mutant-kind?

If she wants to stop the fighting, why not say "I want to stop this." Unless you are going to concede that this rather poorly written, it seems that Hope probably wants to fight on the side who she actually cares about.

Wolverine's exposure to Jean isn't even close to Cyclops' experience with almost every Phoenix host we've seen. It seems rather foolish to not go directly to the source and talk to him about it, since he's the one that has Hope in the first place.

Wanda bears a _lot_ of responsibility. Even though Cyclops drops the issue (hell, even Wolverine doesn't believe Doom's story), Doom's involvement doesn't negate the fact that she is the one who brought him in. Holding her at Utopia is probably the safest option.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 21, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Strange vs Magik on her own Turf. The good doctor needs to put that crazy chick down.


 bitch thinks she cant take strange, its lcute


> Iron Man vs Magneto, even if his suit is made of carbon nanotubes, why not rip the iron from his blood


i doubt ether side is willing to make it escalate to that level...yet


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 21, 2012)

Every time I read the narration in AvX #2, I think of this.

[YOUTUBE]kTMR3RjCaBE[/YOUTUBE]​


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## sanx021 (Apr 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> i doubt ether side is willing to make it escalate to that level...yet



By issue 7 I bet they are


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 21, 2012)

Jesus, how in God's name are they going to stretch this into 12 fucking issues...


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## Glued (Apr 21, 2012)

Is Strange still weakened, or has he taken back the powers of Sorceror Supreme.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 21, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> The five bullet points works for speed. Let's just keep to that format from now on.


Agreed.


Planet sin is a new establishment, so those asses whole are just betting cause their sum, never in the pages of the books has this situation, the phoenix doesn't destroy planets for the hell of it like it is now.

we never saw what  the Shiar's host was like, hope is different, but we don't know if that is necessarily a good thing, in bishops future she fixed the mutants there too she also cause so much destruction that no one objected when they wen holocaust on the mutant race. we  don't know  why their are new mutants we  just know hope caused it

She said "I have to stop this" isn't that enough? she wants to stop the fighting period, as i said if she wanted to side with the  X-men she wouldn't of left she would have joined the meele

Again If you have some one on your team, that your gonna  bring alone to a fight if it comes to it any way, and  is pretty much right down the street theirs no reason not to come to your team mates first, especially when one of them is one of the 8 smartest people on the planet

It Probably is, but she is getting the benefit of the doubt considering the context of the actual situation, additionally last time i checked  Legion was just as unstable and just as powerful and he is now being allowed to be free now that this mental issues are gone, same as wanda in this situation.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 21, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Jesus, how in God's name are they going to stretch this into 12 fucking issues...


 Searching for hope, fighting, Wanda's involvement, the Shiar's Involvement, probably plenty of debated, Posibly Cable and Bishop making an impact.



Ben Grimm said:


> Is Strange still weakened, or has he taken back the powers of Sorceror Supreme.


 i believe he has less of a raw power output because he Dosen't have the eye, but his knowledge of magic makes Magik look like a 1st year at hogwarts


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## Glued (Apr 21, 2012)

Yeah, but their fighting in limbo, Magik's turf. Its obvious that she's been preparing


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## Zen-aku (Apr 21, 2012)

They didn't have that long on to prepare, also Strange has seen  dimensions that makes limbo seem quaint


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 21, 2012)

Even if Planet Sin is a new thing, I don't think the whole "It's Coming" bullshit is particularly different from any time before it. The Phoenix is a destructive force that has had hosts before. This time, the Host is on Earth (which should come as no surprise). The X-Men knew this was coming for a while, the Avengers just seem suddenly thrown in in terms of involvement.
Good or bad, I'm not particularly convinced that moving Hope off-world is a viable way of keeping the world safe. If the host has business on Earth, it doesn't matter where you take it. It feels contrived and kind of panicky. It feels like the whole idea is a waste of time which is obviously going to not work.
Ah, missed that originally. Though I still think her referring to herself as "the biggest gun there is" tells me what she thinks of the thing. And the running away is easily explainable; she's luring the Avengers away. She already thinks she's the big gun, she just wants them to get away from the X-Men.
It just seems like you'd go to Scott _first_. If you want to bring Beast and Wolverine along, too, fine. But talking with them and then essentially taking a piss on Cyclops' lawn with the way he showed up seems to be asking for a fight.
Situation seems to be contrived. Give her to Scott, who obviously doesn't want to kill her after learning Doom's involvement. The guy who has Magik locked down and a psychic therapist on-hand seems to be a better bet than the _*FAT COW*_ who wants to force a reunion with the Avengers too quickly. Plus (and it's weird to say this), Magneto is probably a more positive influence right now than Pietro.


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## Glued (Apr 21, 2012)

Fat Cow? Who you talking about, Marvel Women are never fat. Except Gertrude Stein who got killed off. A shame really, we could use more diversity.

To Zen-Aku: He did that as Sorceror Supreme. Can he take Majik without said power.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 21, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Fat Cow? Who you talking about, Marvel Women are never fat. Except Gertrude Stein who got killed off. A shame really, we could use more diversity.



Dr. Doom saying that to Ms. Marvel is still one of the most hilariously stupid moments in comics. I think I will always call Ms. Marvel that, for if is good enough for Doom, it is good enough for all!


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## Zen-aku (Apr 21, 2012)

But it is, the pheonix never destroyed things randomly to get some thing,and what proof do you have the X-men knew this was coming, the first time they had a clue was during the sparing

if she couldn't control it and she was off planet  she might go back to earth but she might go do some thing else, if they move her far enough away it might decide its not worth the trouble to go back to work, in the inevitable fight they can fight it easier in space and not have to worry about the planet

I'd be more inclined to believe that if she didn't assault her friends on the way out, in all honest i think at this point  she is going dark phoenix and is going to 
meet her "other"

So you wanted  cap to go "Logan beast grab your thing, no talking just come?" that's respectful to the men he has served with.


Magneto might be a good influence, but i think keeping her around some friends, and in closer proximity to her kids is the best thing overall. Also Carol know what is like to lose control of your life, and knows that begin around your friends will help. i thought that was a great  moment for her

And she snot fat shes just got a rocking ass


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## Zen-aku (Apr 21, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Fat Cow? Who you talking about, Marvel Women are never fat. Except Gertrude Stein who got killed off. A shame really, we could use more diversity.


  Carol got the real cuves, a Big butt and i love her for it.

Don't Hate appreciate


*Spoiler*: __ 















 Iam gonna miss staring at datass when she becomes Captain marvel

Ps how great is Frank Cho 




> To Zen-Aku: He did that as Sorceror Supreme. Can he take Majik without said power.


Magic is all about experience and wisdom, Strange has more and didn't lose it


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## Glued (Apr 21, 2012)

Then how did Brother Voodoo gain the title of sorceror Supreme from Strange and how come Doom was always a candidate, but never got it.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 21, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Then how did Brother Voodoo gain the title of sorceror Supreme from Strange and how come Doom was always a candidate, but never got it.



Brother Voodo got the title cause Stange abused the power in the eyes of the ...uh Eye

and Doom is an Incredibly powerful magician, he is just a douch so it sipped him


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 21, 2012)

Doesn't Hope manifest some Phoenix-looking powers during Second Coming? I could swear that's like the whole point behind the "rebirth" angle; it occurred just before a few of the new mutants showed up.
It's destroying things because it's flying straight at Earth... or so we assume. I mean, the possibility of hitting another planet while traveling through space is effectively none, but we need something that makes this look ominous. But it's obviously doing so because it's host is on Earth.
Her friends were going to keep her from leaving, which is why she was taking them out. I don't think she's going Dark Phoenix here. Way too early for that.
"Beast, Logan, come along. We are going to talk to Scott about this." Seems more logical than showing up unannounced and saying you aren't leaving without Hope.
Eh, I just disagree. Utopia is safer and psychic sessions with Emma and Magneto seem like they would be the first choice to really help her out. Plus she can still be safely locked away for the time being.


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## Zen-aku (Apr 21, 2012)

They Aren't Clear on it, they never call it the Phoenix, and she dosen't have the powerset to match it

i took it as it destroying any planet that it gets close to going out of its way to cause destruction, which is not its  MO it's mo is to destroy dead ends

Its not to early if they don't follow up immediatly

That is still him having 2 people with the information that might be help full and not takings to them for no reason even though they are right next to him, in what universe is that not stupid

I Trust Emma as a psychiatrist about as i truth Hannibal lecter, She has shown many times that she is pretty damn unethical with her powers in that regard, she seems more likely to set Wanda off then help her. additionally  if they bring her to utopia even if they don't lock her up she will stay in her room in solitude because  no one on the scrap heap is gonna treat her as any thing but a monster, also if the reason she snapped in the first place was because of the loss of her children, her being close to them seems like the best way to keep her stable.


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## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Yeah, but their fighting in limbo, Magik's turf. Its obvious that she's been preparing



Magik is sorceress supreme of limbo

Right now, strange's power is mostly illusions and energy blasts

Without retard writer on board, strange would be royally fucked


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## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

I still like it how there's enough time to have a meeting with the avengers, then with the president, then with wolverine all the way in westchester, then with the new avengers, but yet, no time to phone Scott Summers ahead


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## Kanali (Apr 21, 2012)

Phoning Scott would make too much sense. Showing up with an army and demanding his grandchild and savior is the sane thing to do


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## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

Even though, again, emma frost is standing right there.

She could instantly pluck their plans for hope from their brain and share them with scott, in seconds

For which they pumped her skull full of brain tazers.

If that's not all the justification needed in the world to go full extinction on their asses, I don't know what is


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

The problem with the whole avengers side is that there are only a hundred things that make too much sense, so they have to make the x-men look as fanatic as possible

Phone scott in and have him included in a meeting or two
Not bring Wolverine in
Not making sure Wolverine doesn't want to stab children
Not bring an armed helicarrier with a full Roster
Not bring a hulk to a major tectonic fault line
Not assault the diplomacy machine
Not assault the reluctant monarch
Not bring in the Wakandan monarch to fight the other monarch
Not violate an ultron level being's system
Not send Hank McCoy to space
Not sending for Professor Xavier

The list goes on and on and on and on

Because I'm sure they brought luke cage and the red hulk in for their people skills


But hey, now that wolverine is out in the open as a  willing child killer, I can't wait to see Zen Aku squirm when rogers and logan turn against each other


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

Ultimately this is no difrent than what the x-men have faced every day.
A world that hates and fears them
Inspiring would be a small word for scott summers if he was real.
I mean, bo-hoo, the humans are scared again. 
Just like they were when:
they sent those sentinels to watch over the school (which they proceeded to obliterate),
 ust like they were when proposition x demanded their sterilization (people forget the abomination that led to utopia being formed in the first place)
just like they were when the skrulls invaded and threatned to destroy entire skyscrapers full of innocents (and scott unleashed the mutants worse nightmare in order to save them)
just like they were when kuurth the stone breaker scared san francisco into aiming ever weapon at utopia lest he destroy the city himself, and yet scott went ahead and saved them anyway
Just like they were in the peace summit when a telepath forced them to be shamelessly honnest

And then people ask "WHY DON'T THE X-MEN SEE REASON?"

Shit, reason didn't save them from osborn, kuurth, skrulls, giant death robots, mad logan, the phalanx, the army of skyfathers or the celestial invasion.
Their balls, skills, teamwork and tactical leadership did.
Imminent death is always coming.
It's the whole reason why logan was a retard for schisming the way he did
If these guys can stare those threats down, why would they ever hand their literal Hope, their destiny, when the phoenix comes around?
Because the humans are scared?
Hah
The fact that the phoenix is _always_ coming is so recurring that no one hardly ever bothers to mourn jean any more.

Brand says in her grave "Yeah, that's gonna last"
It pretty much sums up my whole feelings in this It's Coming panic.


Hell what about nova. That guy just destroyed the chrisler building and killed thousands just by coming into the planet 
He's clearly a destructive cosmic entity
Why don't we throw him back into space?


Aaaand another thing
Utopia is being invaded
Where is that famed child army of scott summers that logan threatened to kill them all over?


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 21, 2012)

they hate and fear the phoenix not the x-men


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

Well it sure aint the baxter building the place where they assembled a fully armed helicarrier, a full avengers roster with a hulk and a crazed child murderer.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

And I certainly don't recall tony stark and doctor strange assembling an invasion force against asgard when the serpent was coming for odin


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 21, 2012)

partisan much banhammer?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 21, 2012)

To be fair, Odin deserved to get his ass kicked for everything that occurred in Fear Itself. All the charges people are leveling against Scott are actually _true_ of Odin. I think he might be suffering from an extended case of that whole "I've come back from death's door and I'm completely insane!" syndrome that Ra's Al Ghul always gets when he gets out of a Lazarus Pit.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

except you know, odin was assembling a cosmic death force to destroy all of earth and tony came begging on his knees for help, when with summers, he's just gonna go ahead and dump a helicarrier on him sentry style.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 21, 2012)

they can beat the x-men, and asking didn't work did it bh?

they had no hope fighting both odin and the serpent


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

Did they ask? Is dumping a Hulk what the kids nowadays consider a polite request?

Having no Hope is a terrible prospect to look at indeed
One would be driven to do strange things if he was faced with that option


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

Makes sense if we consider Movie Stark Diplomacy

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49UL9GamHhc[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 22, 2012)

I read issue #1 today, and they actually do consider talking it out with Cyclops, but Wolverine says that Cyclops wouldn't act rationally about the situation. Bringing in the Avengers was Cap's way of preparing in case that's what happened, and it did.


----------



## shit (Apr 22, 2012)

banhammer logic:

avengers act like douchebags = they're douchebags

x-men act like douchebags = writers are douchebags


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 22, 2012)

I agree with the notion that Captain America is in the wrong here. He could claim that he wanted to come to an understanding all he wants, but he said himself that he wasn't asking for Hope. Emma confirmed it too. That is not negotiation.


----------



## Glued (Apr 22, 2012)

DC does major events to fix their major timelines.
Marvel does major events for the sake of Superheroes fighting other superheroes.

Neither Cap nor Cyke are going to talk. This is World War Hulk all over again. There is a reason why it John Romita Junior doing the art.

I expect a final titanic battle between Wanda and Hope at the end of this series.


----------



## shit (Apr 22, 2012)

wanda will save us all and become our waifu all over again


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 23, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> DC does major events to fix their major timelines.
> Marvel does major events for the sake of Superheroes fighting other superheroes.
> 
> Neither Cap nor Cyke are going to talk. This is World War Hulk all over again. There is a reason why it John Romita Junior doing the art.
> ...



Translation: DC's events are necessary. Marvel's events are just dumb fights.

Cap's argument was basically "We're taking Hope no matter what, but feel free to help us." It's a completely paradoxical approach.

Wanda and Hope duking it out would make sense and could serve as a nice way to bookend the series, considering the zero issue, as well as this entire line of events.


----------



## Blinky (Apr 23, 2012)

People are STILL surprised that the event based around "x vs y", that had no precident really, turns out to be contrived and thrown together for the sake of smashing action figures together?


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

shit said:


> banhammer logic:
> 
> avengers act like douchebags = they're douchebags
> 
> x-men act like douchebags = writers are douchebags



No, I've long admitted that the writers are being shitty on all fronts


But because the writers are portraying the x-men as some sort of fanatics, while the avengers are the "oh no, you are forcing us to attack you", I feel extreemly more compelled to attack the avengerss, since all of the x-men flaws are just being waved off to "scott be cray cray" which is fucking lazy, but undercuts the need for criticism.

So scott is abusing a little girl for no real reason. Why argue? Can't you see his crazy?


----------



## Glued (Apr 23, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> Translation: DC's events are necessary. Marvel's events are just dumb fights.
> 
> Cap's argument was basically "We're taking Hope no matter what, but feel free to help us." It's a completely paradoxical approach.
> 
> Wanda and Hope duking it out would make sense and could serve as a nice way to bookend the series, considering the zero issue, as well as this entire line of events.


 
No because none of the DC events actually were able to work in fixing the messed up timeline. Except Crisis of Infinite Earths, which actually worked and was a good story. Barry Allen should have stayed dead.

I really liked 52 as an event, because it was so random and had little to do timelines. I lulzed at Black Adam and Sivanna eating thanksgiving with eachothers families.

Final Crisis was great as well. Morrison is INVINCIBLE! Even though it fixed and accomplished nothing, Morrison is fucking epic.

Siege and Annihilation were the only Marvel Events I actually liked for their storytelling.

I also liked World War Hulk, just turned off my brain. 

I'm probably going to enjoy this event as well, just for the fighting.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

I liked House of M and Fear Itself

Specially the part where the Seprent was danny trejo, and journey into mystery was happening in the background.

And me catching on that the bottle of hooch tony threw at odin was the one given by hammer industries, and then they reference it in a later story arc


----------



## Glued (Apr 23, 2012)

Siege was so beautiful.

Watch Bill son Bills giving his life for the asgardians.

Seeing two reporters and the policemen taking care of Volstagg. I honestly wish the humans in the X-men had that level of humanity. Volstagg was accused of mass murder, but he still got basic human treatment. 

I felt immersed with Siege in a way that no Marvel Event has ever done for me.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

world war hulk made sense to me, if I hadn't thought too much of the hulk lovefest.

But I like to what I read and apply that art with my imagination to the original script for WWH


----------



## Scarecrow Red (Apr 23, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> No, I've long admitted that the writers are being shitty on all fronts
> 
> 
> But because the writers are portraying the x-men as some sort of fanatics, while the avengers are the "oh no, you are forcing us to attack you", I feel extreemly more compelled to attack the avengerss, since all of the x-men flaws are just being waved off to "scott be cray cray" which is fucking lazy, but undercuts the need for criticism.
> ...



Is this the same Scott who was talking in a reasonable and polite way with Hope in that Generation Hope title?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 23, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> DC does major events to fix their major timelines.
> Marvel does major events for the sake of *Superheroes fighting other superheroes.*



I think this is why Marvel's events don't quite click with me. Almost every time it revolves around the idea of "Anyone is fair game! Anyone could attack anyone!" What the hell is up with the Marvel Superhero community that people stop trusting each other at the drop of a fucking hat.

Siege is okay; I read it recently and it was good enough to entertain me. I think it's because, for the most part, the superheroes are actually united rather than split up in to fractious groups as they normally are. Same with Annihilation, and perhaps to a lesser extent Secret Invasion (Which is something that I enjoyed a lot of, but still hate for the main series).


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

Scarecrow Red said:


> Is this the same Scott who was talking in a reasonable and polite way with Hope in that Generation Hope title?



Pretty much the same scott a few issues ago trusted Hope enough to bring sebastian shaw into the team and got an optic blast to the face for his troubles when he tried telling hope not to go galivanting in vigilante activities


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 23, 2012)

Dude, he has MPD: Marvel Personality Disorder.


----------



## Glued (Apr 23, 2012)

I just wish Hope had a different name. The emphasis on her name is driving me nuts.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

yeah, that's what it did to zero

It's just so on the nose


----------



## Kanali (Apr 23, 2012)

It is indeed on the nose, but at least she's not named that because of the messiah thing.


----------



## Glued (Apr 23, 2012)

Oh yeah, I also liked Age of Apocalypse from the 90s.

Ah the 90s...good times.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 23, 2012)

I'd like to think that Hope ruthlessly beats anyone who makes puns of her name in-universe.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

she assaults those bullies arms and legs viciously with her ribs


----------



## Glued (Apr 23, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> she assaults those bullies arms and legs viciously with her ribs



I don't really read X-men, but how often does Hope get bullied. She seems way too Ub3r.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)




----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

Scott Summers


Clearly, the Child Abuser


----------



## Glued (Apr 23, 2012)

Well, I just Hope she doesn't have a Messiah Complex even if she is one.


----------



## Kanali (Apr 23, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Well, I just Hope she doesn't have a Messiah Complex even if she is one.



She doesn't so far, but she is a very strict leader, extremely stubborn and temperamental.


----------



## Glued (Apr 23, 2012)

Kanali said:


> She doesn't so far, but she is a very strict leader, extremely stubborn and temperamental.



Oh, generic action girl. I get it.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

Not at all actually
She does have a messiah complex and a lot of genuine self doubt
She was raised as a survivalist, not as a messiah, and is not sure how to handle being the chosen one
She reminds me of buffy in a lot of ways


----------



## Kanali (Apr 23, 2012)

Hope was raised to become the Messiah, Cable told her she was special all the time, but I guess she just didn't quite believe him.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

season 7 buffy, which is admitingly not as good as earlier buffy, and a lot less humorous

Generation Hope is still a great read


----------



## Glued (Apr 23, 2012)

Lets talk about the final confrontation.

In a fight between Scarlet Witch and Hope, who wins?


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

considering hope gets wanda's powers and the phoenix on top..


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 23, 2012)

I would expect Hope to be the winner. I'm still torn on whether I want the Avengers to win, but if I had to look at it from a thematic standpoint, Hope would help live up to her title if she gave the X-Men the victory. I don't think Wanda would even want to put up a fight. The only reason I can see them fighting is if Hope fights Wanda to give her payback for the decimation on behalf of the mutants, or the writer's decide to completely ignore Wanda's character and have her fight Hope for no reason.


----------



## Glued (Apr 23, 2012)

Hopefully (No pun intended) they won't pull some bullshit like giving back the powers to all the mutants that lost them.


----------



## shit (Apr 23, 2012)

if hope got wanda's powers, she'd unexist herself by accident


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Apr 23, 2012)

wolverine wanting to kill hope was to be expected, when wanda was a problem, he said kill it, when wiccan and wanda where a problem he said kill it, when something becomes too much of a problem, his answer is usually kill it, not only that but this is a guy, who the girl he loved asked him to kill her in endsong (or was it warsong, need to check my books), and saw her go dark phoenix (dark phoenix saga anyone), he even told such to hope, and hope seemed to agree to it, only requesting him to make it quick, so he goes in a room and sees the body of all her teammates smoking and see her all phoenix-ish and this being wolverine who is stab first ask questions next week, well yeah.... 



Ben Grimm said:


> Hopefully (No pun intended) they won't pull some bullshit like giving back the powers to all the mutants that lost them.


you know that's one of the main reasons of this event, deep down you know.



Banhammer said:


> But because the writers are portraying the x-men as some sort of fanatics, while the avengers are the "oh no, you are forcing us to attack you", I feel extreemly more compelled to attack the avengerss, since all of the x-men flaws are just being waved off to "scott be cray cray" which is fucking lazy, but undercuts the need for criticism.
> 
> So scott is abusing a little girl for no real reason. Why argue? Can't you see his crazy?


but the problem isn't just scott being crazy, is that no one in the island does anything against, I mean you would think that at least Emma would do something about it, but it is like they forgot she hate the phoenix or something, right now the X-men are on a my country right or wrong mindset.



Banhammer said:


> I still like it how there's enough time to have a meeting with the avengers, then with the president, then with wolverine all the way in westchester, then with the new avengers, but yet, no time to phone Scott Summers ahead


he went to have a meeting with scott and a fistful of being for his troubles



Kanali said:


> Phoning Scott would make too much sense. Showing up with an army and demanding his grandchild and savior is the sane thing to do


the helicarrier didn't come to play until after scott shot cap, and cap only demanded hope after cyclops went all religious fanatic 



Banhammer said:


> Well it sure aint the baxter building the place where they assembled a fully armed helicarrier, a full avengers roster with a hulk and a crazed child murderer.


that was there as suggestion by wolverine, and apparently he was right 



Banhammer said:


> Did they ask? Is dumping a Hulk what the kids nowadays consider a polite request?


after they got attacked by mags and colossus


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 24, 2012)

Blackfeather Dragon said:


> wolverine wanting to kill hope was to be expected



It is actually, but it just makes it deliciously ironic that the only team of teenagers that engaged in violence was the one Wolverine attacked



> but the problem isn't just scott being crazy, is that no one in the island does anything against, I mean you would think that at least Emma would do something about it,


She did. She informed cyclops that the avengers had no intentions of negotiating
When it was time for her to intervene peacefully and then give everyone an equivocal exchange of ideas, iron man pumped her full of nano-lobotomies
Pay atention to what you're reading now


> but it is like they forgot she hate the phoenix or something, right now the X-men are on a my country right or wrong mindset.


Emma Frost is above all things an educator. She has seen children under her guard die horribly at the hands of a fearful world
You'd be dead wrong if you thought Emma would be anything but the very last person to surrender Hope.



> he went to have a meeting with scott and a fistful of being for his troubles


Not that black and white
Besides, scott has the spatial awareness to snipe the wings off a fly by bouncing it out the walls thirty times
If Scott wanted to do anything other than push him back, rogers would be dead
In exchange, captain gave him a concussion


> the helicarrier didn't come to play until after scott shot cap, and cap only demanded hope after cyclops went all religious fanatic


Now you're just reading something completely diffrent





> that was there as suggestion by wolverine, and apparently he was right



Inane.
 I'll enjoy watching you twist your opinion when cap goes "did you just try to kill a kid?"


> after they got attacked by mags and colossus


The fully armed weapon of mass destruction who was assembling jets?

You are not serious


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 24, 2012)

i don't blame wolverine for his actions. phoenix is heading towards earthto inhabit hope, solution: kill hope. moreover he walked in on her standing over all her deep fried friends talking about the overwhelming power she's feeling. pretty dark phoenixy


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 24, 2012)

There have been several times in the comics when it's stated Scott holds back his power as he's afraid of hurting people if he wanted to kill cap he would have. what was he meant to do hand over a mutant to a team that works for a government that has slaughtered hundreds of mutants.

Wolverine is a hypocrite just like beast they all judge Cyclops when he does something morally wrong but when they do it's ok


----------



## Kanali (Apr 24, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> i don't blame wolverine for his actions. phoenix is heading towards earthto inhabit hope, solution: kill hope. moreover he walked in on her standing over all her deep fried friends talking about the overwhelming power she's feeling. pretty dark phoenixy



Killing Hope won't do anything good. Best case scenario, the Phoenix picks a different host on a different world and destroys all the planets on its way there (and if the Avengers are to be believed, the planet that the host is on as well). Worst case scenario, the Phoenix picks another host on Earth and nothing changes or it simply goes berserk and destroys the Earth to punish the people that killed its host.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 24, 2012)

no best case scenario it flies off to some other world and galactus eats it. 

whats it been doing this whole time before it suddenly started devouring planets on its way to hope anyway? maybe it would just go back to doing fuckall


----------



## Kanali (Apr 24, 2012)

Its been dormant since the last time it chose a host. Now that its time for it to manifest again, it'll find a host no matter what. And Galactus wouldn't eat it, unlike the Avengers he understands that its vital to the universe


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 24, 2012)

the phoenix and galctus are equals and the phoenix can pick a different host. Like Emma the Cuckoos the list goes on


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 24, 2012)

the force casually ressurects hope


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 24, 2012)

except when the force ressurects the host they might be seriously fucked because of the trauma of getting ganked


----------



## Narutossss (Apr 24, 2012)

Any standalones or crossover/event/tie-in free books I could be recommended. 

I like x-men(more student related) and spiderman, anything think drawn by chris bachalo I'll read...anything. as long as it's not drawn by land or deodato jr and any super hyper realistic artist I'll try, feels too lifeless. I'm more into books like ultimate spider-man, invincible, wolverine and the x-men, Starting to take a liking to avenging spiderman and books that don't take themselves far too seriously but not too stupid like a certain new spiderman cartoon.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 24, 2012)

try dare devil  it's a good read


----------



## Glued (Apr 24, 2012)

Though I don't like how it was handled, putting the phoenix host body in space may not be a bad idea.

They take the host on a ship to space.

Phoenix takes over.

Worst case scenario, the space ship blows up.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 24, 2012)

worst case scenario you piss of the host and the host becomes the dark phoenix and destroys the planet


----------



## Narutossss (Apr 24, 2012)

Yeah i heard daredevil got nominated for a ton of eisner awards this year so it was on my mind, but is it event free and little to no tie-in?. non of that annaul issue BS?? easy to follow? continuity issues?? and by the way which daredevil? ultimate, main, current run? what creative team is on the book.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 24, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> Yeah i heard daredevil got nominated for a ton of eisner awards this year so it was on my mind, but is it event free and little to no tie-in?. non of that annaul issue BS?? easy to follow? continuity issues?? and by the way which daredevil? ultimate, main, current run? what creative team is on the book.



Other than The Omega Effect mini event which features Punisher and Avenging Spider-Man as well the latest Daredevil run hasn't factored into any events


----------



## Narutossss (Apr 24, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Other than The Omega Effect mini event which features Punisher and Avenging Spider-Man as well the latest Daredevil run hasn't factored into any events


Ok i'm sold... I give a try and hope for the best.


----------



## Glued (Apr 24, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> worst case scenario you piss of the host and the host becomes the dark phoenix and destroys the planet



Not really, just talk to hope, explain the situation. Get her to voluntarily go to space with a group of x-men and avengers to show that they're not going to abandon her.

If she can control it, they bring her back to earth. No mess, no fuss.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 24, 2012)

after the hulk that may no longer be an option

Even though the x-men do have a great record for space export and importation of team members


----------



## tari101190 (Apr 24, 2012)

YES!



Battle Scars #6!

Agent Coulson is in!

Marcus Johnson wears captain America's amazing Heroic Age uniform (that he stupidly abandoned)!





Plus just finished reading Doctor Voodoo - Avenger of the Supernatural!

Today is a good day!


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 24, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> YES!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good. I knew it was inevitable.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 24, 2012)

I'm almost hoping we'll get a relaunch of the Agent of SHIELD series out of this


----------



## shit (Apr 24, 2012)

you guys have fun reading that


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 24, 2012)

wow they really made him look exactly like ultimate nick fury


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 24, 2012)

Oh my god. Phil Coulson: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. WANT. 

But wow....marcus johnson huh? Why not just have ult. fury just come in during spider men?


----------



## tari101190 (Apr 25, 2012)

Apparently Cheese has been Coulson this entire time. So he has been around for five issues.

Also I hate people, like on tumblr, who have judgemental opinions about comic book series' without actually reading them.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 25, 2012)

I think I need to read this series just for Coulson. But yeah in all seriousness a new shield series would be pretty cool. Not just Fury, Coulson, and Hill, but Dum Dum, Jaspers, and all those other cool Shield guys from secret warriors.


----------



## shit (Apr 25, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



there's already a shield series


----------



## Narutossss (Apr 25, 2012)

why is everything re numbered? looking for DD comics I;m seeing issue 15, 16 etc shouldn't this book be in the multi hundreds?


----------



## shit (Apr 25, 2012)

it got started over again

they'll recompile them when the total issues get up to something nice and round like 500


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 25, 2012)

shit said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> there's already a shield series



Wait....what?


----------



## shit (Apr 25, 2012)

by    hickman


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 25, 2012)

Oh yeah, need to catch up on that. But you know what I mean, something more like Winter Soldier or the earlier chapters of Secret Warriors. Surely we can have more than one espionage book right?

Oh and add Shang Chi to my dream cast for a shield book ha.


----------



## tari101190 (Apr 25, 2012)

So in AVSX VS #1, the Avengers win every fight. Even in Uncanny X-Men, Hulk beats Colossus.

Great.


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 25, 2012)

haven't got the issue yet did the thing and luke cage beat Namor


----------



## tari101190 (Apr 25, 2012)

Luke Cage wasn't involved. And The Thing is declared the winner officialy.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 25, 2012)

lol at the last page of uncanny x-men

more ammo for banhammer


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 25, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> Luke Cage wasn't involved. And The Thing is declared the winner officialy.



WTF how did the thing beat Namor


----------



## Es (Apr 25, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> So in AVSX VS #1, the Avengers win every fight. Even in Uncanny X-Men, Hulk beats Colossus.
> 
> Great.



Ahahahaha    .


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 25, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> WTF how did the thing beat Namor



jobbing **

it was really dumb


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 25, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> So in AVSX VS #1, the Avengers win every fight. Even in Uncanny X-Men, Hulk beats Colossus.
> 
> Great.



Fuck....

That's complete horseshit...Marvel could at least have given the X-Men one win...but to have the avengers sweep in the first round...jesus christ


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 25, 2012)

Yeah, IM and Mags I guess I can by, since it's at least clear that Mags was distracted. But Colossunaut losing to Hulk and Namor losing to Thing (IN WATER) is ridiculous.


----------



## Kanali (Apr 25, 2012)

In fairness, Colossus let the Hulk beat him


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 25, 2012)

went on to cbr forum just found out how Namor lost. Marvel is not even trying that is utter bull for Namor to lose like that. at least make it believable Marvel


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 25, 2012)

colossus vs hulk i thought was actually pretty good. and before that issue i didn't really see hulk as the weaker of the two anyway, but UXM basically said yes colossus is more powerful.

red hulk actually won by being clever, surprising but makes sense

the immonens disappoint, normally i like both of them but that was such a shit fight with shit writing. and even the art wasn't as good as i expected.

but gillen continues being awesome


----------



## Blitzomaru (Apr 25, 2012)

FF #17. HILARIOUS!!!!
Imagine walking into your bathroom to this:
*Spoiler*: __ 




[/IMG]


----------



## Glued (Apr 25, 2012)

So Ben uses his own body to plug a thermal vent, lets it explode.

Pretty smart idea, except, it would probably take a Volcanic explosion on the level of Pompei to affect Namor. Also, two giant teeth are going to hold Namor. 

Part of me wants to facepalm.

The other part of me wants to dance to Party Rock Anthem. HELL YEAH, BEN BEAT NAMOR.

I'm not going lie, I actually did turn on Party Rock Anthem and did start dancing. There is a smile on my face.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 25, 2012)

UXM made me smile
Last page speaks for itself.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 25, 2012)

spoilers for the last page, its better to just read the whole issue



honestly i found it hilarious


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 25, 2012)

I sure hope those fights are only Round 1


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 25, 2012)

oh my god  lol Cyclops trolling the Avengers


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 25, 2012)

Yeah, it's really more humorous to me rather than vindicative


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 25, 2012)

Okay we seriously need a cyke shopped version of that MAXIMUM TROLLING pic.


----------



## Blitzomaru (Apr 25, 2012)

I still feel no sympathy for cyclops whatsoever. There's a difference between the MRD rounding up mutants and the Avengers rounding up 1 mutant on the very possible chance that the alien entity that's on its way there could completely incinerate the planet. And no one would be able to stop her.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 25, 2012)

Meh, both parties are carrying idiot balls. So any thoughts on New Avengers 25?

Guess there's no rule that says a phoenix host can't also be an iron fist.


----------



## Es (Apr 25, 2012)

Just met Mark Waid at the comic store, even took a picture.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 25, 2012)

hope you praised him

for his righteous JMS burns


----------



## Blitzomaru (Apr 25, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> Meh, both parties are carrying idiot balls. So any thoughts on New Avengers 25?
> 
> Guess there's no rule that says a phoenix host can't also be an iron fist.



I agree, but the difference is that only one side could be wrong and the entire planet is annihilated. If the Avengers are wrong what's the worst that can happen? Hope Phoenix kills them, but the planet is spared?


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 26, 2012)

So how many retcons did Bendis manage to include into Iron Fist lore with the New Avenger 25?



Blitzomaru said:


> FF #17. HILARIOUS!!!!
> Imagine walking into your bathroom to this:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


I was a bit let down with the issue until that ending. So. Bloody. Fantastic.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 26, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> Meh, both parties are carrying idiot balls. So any thoughts on New Avengers 25?
> 
> Guess there's no rule that says a phoenix host can't also be an iron fist.


It makes no sense to me whatsoever
It doesn't help that so much of it is covered in Deodato syfy



Bergelmir said:


> So how many retcons did Bendis manage to include into Iron Fist lore with the New Avenger 25?



Yeah, I miss IIF


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 26, 2012)

Good enough publicity put osborn in charge
Scott  comes in with the first smart move in this event.
And that includes tony stark coming with a magical solution to single handedly handle magneto, emma frost and Danger





Blitzomaru said:


> I agree, but the difference is that only one side could be wrong and the entire planet is annihilated. If the Avengers are wrong what's the worst that can happen? Hope Phoenix kills them, but the planet is spared?



When someone comes into your home to take your family away against your will, when no crime has been committed, it's called a kidnapping
And if you have the power to stop it, you can and should


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 26, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> So how many retcons did Bendis manage to include into Iron Fist lore with the New Avenger 25?



It's really not that bad.

Just that the Phoenix came to earth once before, but a phoenix host (who was also an Iron Fist) was able to control it.


----------



## Slice (Apr 26, 2012)

So i guess i was right not even getting interrested in this event?
It seems like another "decent idea - crappy execution" plot that has been plaguing Marvel for a while now.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 26, 2012)

It's decent enough to follow on the x-books, because of his holiness the Gillen


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 26, 2012)

Yeah, the only fun things about this are the fights and the "OH SNAP" moments. The avengers may be ahead in the former, but thanks to Cyke's letter the X men have taken a commanding lead in the latter.

Edit: Indeed, praise be to Gillen.


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 26, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> It's really not that bad.
> 
> Just that the Phoenix came to earth once before, but a phoenix host (who was also an Iron Fist) was able to control it.



Well, I suppose thats acceptable.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 26, 2012)

Which I prefer, should the oposite be the only other option

It's more egregious to portray scott as a dumbass than it is to portray the x-men as weaklings


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 26, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Well, I suppose thats acceptable.



And it's really more that she was made an Iron Fist because she was a phoenix host.


*Spoiler*: __ 



That time period's Yu Ti had prophetic dreams of a red haired iron fist overcoming a force that would decimate everything, so when he sees a red haired peasant girl while walking the streets he tasks Lei Kung with training her so that she will fulfill that destiny. 

And now current Yu Ti is having those same dreams, and at the end of the book he tasks lei kung with finding danny and telling him what must be done.




But I'm curious to see a confrontation between Luke and Danny. Danny won't budge when it comes to Iron Fist stuff, but hopefully Luke stands by him as a sign of solidarity.


----------



## Taleran (Apr 26, 2012)

Man so much for the 'good' fights being in VS everything I have read about that book is that it is a showcase how terrible mainstream superhero comics are at staging action.


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 26, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> And it's really more that she was made an Iron Fist because she was a phoenix host.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


...oh. So he's retconned Immortal Iron Fist. Since the current Yu Ti is Lei Kung. And the current Thunderer is Orson Randall's daughter. And Nu-An, theprevious Yu-Ti, was a corrupt bastard, who pretty much caused the events of the Fraction/Brubaker run. Who ran away from K'un Lun like a pansy.

*sigh* Well, its not like Bendis turned Shou-Lao into a Phoenix spawn or something.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 26, 2012)

Taleran said:


> Man so much for the 'good' fights being in VS everything I have read about that book is that it is a showcase how terrible mainstream superhero comics are at staging action.



it's true. the iron man magneto one was... 'ok'. comics don't really seem to do the manga thing though, where there's an actual focus on how battles play out. and when they do, you get pretty crappy results.

Some artists can stage a cool action sequence, but I don't really trust the writers to do it or be very creative or interesting with writing fights.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 26, 2012)

Who knew hickman could do spider-man though?


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 26, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> ...oh. So he's retconned Immortal Iron Fist. Since the current Yu Ti is Lei Kung. And the current Thunderer is Orson Randall's daughter. And Nu-An, theprevious Yu-Ti, was a corrupt bastard, who pretty much caused the events of the Fraction/Brubaker run. Who ran away from K'un Lun like a pansy.
> 
> *sigh* Well, its not like Bendis turned Shou-Lao into a Phoenix spawn or something.



Oh wow, I can't believe I forgot about that. That's ridiculous. Don't see why Lei Kung couldn't have the dreams.

And it would have been cooler to see Orson's daughter go to earth and reach out to Danny.

EDIT: Oh yeah, anybody see the preview for AvX3? I love how this series is highlighting Cap's negotiating abilities. 

Cap: Point
Wolverine: Counterpoint
Cap: Insistence of point
Wolverine: Insistence of counterpoint
Cap: YOU'RE NOT LISTENING! *PUNCH*


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 26, 2012)

he is a true representation of our proud country

ps I like cap just sending everyone on a really obvious world tour of the marvel universe, to places that make zero sense for hope to have gone


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 26, 2012)

I would have loved to see a panel immediately after that of Hope walking out of a 7-11 (slurpee in hand) in San Francisco.


----------



## Taleran (Apr 26, 2012)

Oh god I just read that preview.

"Luke and his people"
'


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 26, 2012)

that was a great movie


----------



## Parallax (Apr 26, 2012)

Yeah it's tons of fun


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 26, 2012)

Don Cheadle was good, but they really should have just had RDJ play Rhodey.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 26, 2012)

I thought the same thing about that line.

Cap attacking Wolverine cost him all my sympathy. He really thinks beating the crap out of Wolverine is going to help matters?


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 26, 2012)

Hey Cap, how about you stop being a dumbass...if you were that fucking concerned you should have sent Wolverine on one of the numerous wild goose chases you sent the other avengers on. 

speaking of those...why in gods name would Hope be in Latvaria (or freaking Wundagore for that matter)...I mean I know Wanda turned up there, but why in god's name would Hope think "Hmm maybe I should go to Doom's Country"


----------



## Glued (Apr 26, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> I thought the same thing about that line.
> 
> Cap attacking Wolverine cost him all my sympathy. He really thinks beating the crap out of Wolverine is going to help matters?



He did it because of this.

[YOUTUBE]DJApFqXkCFo[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 26, 2012)

That canuckistanian ASSHOLE.


----------



## Glued (Apr 26, 2012)

Canuckistan, good one.

Anyways, I'm disappointed in the fights. Its not really fights, its more Avengers are awesome, x-men get a beat down, fuck logic.

Its a real shame. If they were going to have Superheroes beating eachother up, they could have put in more detail.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 26, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Hey Cap, how about you stop being a dumbass...if you were that fucking concerned you should have sent Wolverine on one of the numerous wild goose chases you sent the other avengers on.
> 
> speaking of those...why in gods name would Hope be in Latvaria (or freaking Wundagore for that matter)...I mean I know Wanda turned up there, but why in god's name would Hope think "Hmm maybe I should go to Doom's Country"



Why would any of those places make sense? I know nothing about Tabula Rasa, but what's the point of going to the Savage Land or Wakanda? The answer is tie-ins.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 27, 2012)

like i said, it was blatant "lets show off all the cool unique places in marvel!" 

because they think they'll be getting new readers with this event.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 27, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Canuckistan, good one.
> 
> Anyways, I'm disappointed in the fights. Its not really fights, its more Avengers are awesome, x-men get a beat down, fuck logic.
> 
> Its a real shame. If they were going to have Superheroes beating eachother up, they could have put in more detail.



I'd say Hulk vs. Colossus was the only exception, since it actually made sense why Hulk won.

Who wrote that fight again? It must have been one of them there architects, like Bendis or Fraction, right?


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 27, 2012)

i was sorta enjoying the iron man one until magneto was all "im gonna take power from tons of planets waaay out in space because..."

how does that fucking work?


----------



## Parallax (Apr 27, 2012)

it doesn't

I was really disappointed with this issue.  I was looking over issue 1 at my lcs and I decided not to buy it


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 27, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> like i said, it was blatant "lets show off all the cool unique places in marvel!"
> 
> because they think they'll be getting new readers with this event.



I consider myself a new reader, but I'm not going to buy the issues. I'll read them if I See them, but right I'd rather start with previous stories, like Disassembled or Contest of Champions.



Whip Whirlwind said:


> I'd say Hulk vs. Colossus was the only exception, since it actually made sense why Hulk won.
> 
> Who wrote that fight again? It must have been one of them there architects, like Bendis or Fraction, right?



Gillen wrote Uncanny X-Men, actually. If you're talking about AvX, it was written by Aaron.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 27, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> I consider myself a new reader, but I'm not going to buy the issues. I'll read them if I See them, but right I'd rather start with previous stories, like Disassembled or Contest of Champions.
> 
> 
> 
> Gillen wrote Uncanny X-Men, actually. If you're talking about AvX, it was written by Aaron.



Yeah ha I was being sarcastic. I just think it's funny how AvX declared Aaron the "architect" of the X verse when Gillen is the guy writing (and nailing) Uncanny X men, featuring most of the X characters fighting the Avengers, including their leader.

But I suppose Gillen would want to write cyclops well, and we just can't have that can we?


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 27, 2012)

Well at least we have UXM. Complete with Cyclop's fair and balanced PR


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh I agree that his PR isn't balanced at all, but it was in character. I'm not saying that Gillen writes Cyclops as the paragon of truth and justice, just that writes him well.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 27, 2012)

I know, its just funny how UXM is even showing cyclop's side of the story 'in-universe'. If that makes sense. 

UXM is definitely the best thing out of this event so far


----------



## tari101190 (Apr 27, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> ...UXM is definitely the best thing out of this event so far



So the recent Uncanny X-Men seems to be the only issue of this event so far to show anything worthwhile.

You know there is something wrong when a tie-in is more interesting, makes more sense and has better content and art than the lead series.

It even showed Hope confronting Wolverine. Hopefully next issue will show another fight and some more story 'development'. I usually but the events, but I may just buy the collected X-Men tie ins instead depending on how things turn out.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 27, 2012)

So I always kinda laugh when I see CBR 'reviews' because they basically just hand out 4 star +s to almost anything

but this was a new level.  AvsX 1... 5 star review!


----------



## sanx021 (Apr 27, 2012)

they gave nightwing #8 3 stars just shows how bad they are at reviewing comics


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 27, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> Well at least we have UXM. Complete with Cyclop's fair and balanced PR


Hehe.
It's not the eye beams you should scared of
It's the brain behind it.
This is the guy who outplayed Norman Osborn in the PR game after all.

God, I hope for the next few months gillen does nothing but damage control for this event


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 27, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> So I always kinda laugh when I see CBR 'reviews' because they basically just hand out 4 star +s to almost anything
> 
> but this was a new level.  AvsX 1... 5 star review!



haha, considering the review goes to great lengths to explain how it is all a michael bay,I think the five stars came from "lol, I don't really give a shit"


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm reading the preview and having a giggle fit

"You scared the girl"
Scared? Don't you mean atempted murder?
"She was already scared to begin with"
BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA




Petes12 said:


> i was sorta enjoying the iron man one until magneto was all "im gonna take power from tons of planets waaay out in space because..."
> 
> how does that fucking work?



Better than Tony Stark's actually.

They abused the shit out of Tony's magic wand.
In three minutes, between meetings, tony stark managed to make himself a nano-carbon filaments armor (which is fucking retarded, specially considering what the armor is now) a magnet storm of dylium, which is like, ten times more expensive than gold, a cloud of brain frying nanites, send an energy syphon satelyte system to jupiter all while remotely hacking Danger's AI?

Seriously, I'd sooner believe ben grimm traped namor underwater, with two fish teeth





Phantom Roxas said:


> I thought the same thing about that line.
> 
> Cap attacking Wolverine cost him all my sympathy. He really thinks beating the crap out of Wolverine is going to help matters?



Maybe it'll make Scott happy?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 27, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> So I always kinda laugh when I see CBR 'reviews' because they basically just hand out 4 star +s to almost anything
> 
> but this was a new level.  AvsX 1... 5 star review!



You should step your game up and frequent the Byrne board instead.

I hear Byrne and his flying monkeys are tearing the Avengers movie a new asshole right now.


----------



## Blinky (Apr 28, 2012)

I just read the preview.... why did Cap jump so fast to punching Wolverine


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 28, 2012)

I must have been infected with those brain nanites, because why did cap wait until they rounded up all the x-men, droped by the academy, came back to new york on the other side of the continent, re-deployed everyone to difrent corners of the world, even though they just blew hours of flight time coming back to NY and assembling on a roof top then passive aggressively pull logan on his corner, and then have that retarded conversation where "you went off on your own and you scared that girl" "she was already scared" "damn it, you have to obey orders" "you just don't want me to kill little girls" "how dare you?" happened and then punched the regenerating steel skulled mutant with a temper in the face?


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 28, 2012)

It's like the writers are going out of their way to be retarded for wolverine's sake


----------



## Glued (Apr 28, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I'm reading the preview and having a giggle fit
> 
> "You scared the girl"
> Scared? Don't you mean atempted murder?
> ...


Where does Stark get the money?


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 28, 2012)

Charcan said:


> You should step your game up and frequent the Byrne board instead.
> 
> I hear Byrne and his flying monkeys are tearing the Avengers movie a new asshole right now.



byrne's a racist shitheap


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 28, 2012)

Defenders 6 preview: 

*sigh* I don't know why I bother with Fraction. First Bendis retcons Immortal Iron Fist. Now Fraction is killing off the Immortal Weapons. Wankers, the lot of them.

EDIT: 





Ben Grimm said:


> Where does Stark get the money?



Isn't Tony supposed to be nearly broke? Thats the reason he started Stark Resilient, right? And even that is failing thanks to the Mandarin.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 28, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Where does Stark get the money?



That's actually a good question...considering Tony's supposed to be dirt poor now.


----------



## Es (Apr 28, 2012)

Charcan said:


> You should step your game up and frequent the Byrne board instead.
> 
> I hear Byrne and his flying monkeys are tearing the Avengers movie a new asshole right now.



haters gonna hate


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 28, 2012)

i assumed he had made anti-magneto armor well in advance


----------



## Glued (Apr 28, 2012)

what happens if stark goes broke, bankrupt or unemployed?

Would he get a job at Mickey D's?


----------



## Blinky (Apr 28, 2012)

Fraction going to be working with two of my favourite artists soon, Jamie McKelvie and David Aja, so conflicted.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 28, 2012)

> i assumed he had made anti-magneto armor well in advance


He made it and replaced it with the one all shot up inside his bones now?
His new armor is neurologically bonded with him. to tamper with that is to perform brain surgery onto yourself, massive brain surgery.
There's not enough tv tropes for the inaneness of this notion


Emperor Joker said:


> That's actually a good question...considering Tony's supposed to be dirt poor now.



I hear the russians take payment for super weapons grade arsenal in blow jobs now


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 28, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Defenders 6 preview:
> 
> *sigh* I don't know why I bother with Fraction. First Bendis retcons Immortal Iron Fist. Now Fraction is killing off the Immortal Weapons. Wankers, the lot of them.



I'm more concerned with how Defenders connects with AvX.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 28, 2012)

strange valtz into Limbo, which since Bendis hates Strange, explains why it is implied he lost, danny gets to fuck around with the phoenix, namor gets pinned by teeth, no one gives a shit about red she-hulk


----------



## Glued (Apr 28, 2012)

Aside from the Hulk that got banished twice, why would anyone hate the good doctor?


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Apr 29, 2012)

I thought Hulk forgave Strange?

You also forgot Silver Surfer.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 29, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Aside from the Hulk that got banished twice, why would anyone hate the good doctor?



because people can't write him worth a damn so he doesn't sell enough lunchboxes


----------



## Narutossss (May 1, 2012)

I'm not stepping anywhere near AvX but I'm curious..... how bad is it!?!


----------



## Banhammer (May 1, 2012)

pretty bad. But Uncanny X-Men might be interesting


----------



## Narutossss (May 1, 2012)

I'm only reading W&x-men... I'm not reading a cyclops book.


I also heard greg land is on the rotation on that book... hell no!


----------



## Petes12 (May 1, 2012)

even with greg land UXM is the superior book.


----------



## sanx021 (May 1, 2012)

I hope unit appears in Wolverine and the X-men and trolls that canadian gremlin with claws


----------



## Phantom Roxas (May 1, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> I'm only reading W&x-men... I'm not reading a cyclops book.



This. The only book on the Cyclops side of the schism I'm interested in is New Mutants, and even then it's not by very much.


----------



## Kanali (May 1, 2012)

I read both but I prefer Uncanny by far. I absolutely loathe the art in Wolverine and the X-Men and I find the stories uninteresting. Uncanny on the other hand has decent art and great stories.


----------



## Banhammer (May 1, 2012)

Land is actually not too horrible.
Maybe because they did storylines with tabula rasa, celestials and the Sinister World that make tracing a pain in the ass.


----------



## tari101190 (May 1, 2012)

I can still see the same generic faces being used in Uncanny X-Men. The art seems good at first glance, but then there's a close-up of a face. And that generic womans screaming face is used far too often.

He draws great when he's not drawing women or their faces.


----------



## Banhammer (May 1, 2012)

I don't know, I still think Unc is great quality, and I don't feel the need to bash land for his work in that particular run of that particular series
You catch a glimpse once in a while, like Kildare (I think that's the RP lady's name) sending the letter to humanity, but it's mostly great

It helps that most female characters are naturally slutty looking to begin with, like Magik, Emma and  Storm, and it's hard to make a slutty Danger


----------



## shit (May 1, 2012)

and when land isn't on the book, it has about the best art out there

land does an arc, some of the best artists in the business do an arc, going back and forth

so using art as an excuse for missing out on this book is still pretty invalid


----------



## Banhammer (May 1, 2012)

besides

Other books lack Unit, the evil iBot


----------



## shit (May 1, 2012)

you mean the emerald plotdevice


----------



## Banhammer (May 1, 2012)

Space Nick fury


----------



## shit (May 1, 2012)

maybe in her space dreams


----------



## shit (May 1, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> besides
> 
> Other books lack Unit, the evil iBot



this post used to say something else 

but this edit makes a better point


----------



## Banhammer (May 1, 2012)

shit said:


> maybe in her space dreams



you don't like her because she's a furry


----------



## Glued (May 1, 2012)

Why do people hate Greg Land?


----------



## Banhammer (May 1, 2012)

why do people shit in toilets?


----------



## Phantom Roxas (May 1, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> you don't like her because she's a furry



Considering the avatar and sig, I highly doubt that.



Banhammer said:


> why do people shit in toilets?



I'm so using that as a response.


----------



## Narutossss (May 1, 2012)

Kanali said:


> I read both but I prefer Uncanny by far. I absolutely loathe the art in Wolverine and the X-Men and I find the stories uninteresting. Uncanny on the other hand has decent art and great stories.


I don't get why Chris bachalo has so many goddamn haters, because his stuff looks catoonish or it isn't generic marvel comic style?! As far as I'm concerned he's one of marvels best.

I only hope I'm as good as him one day. 

and pete, how can you say uncanny is better than W&xmen when you're sporting an avatar from w&xmen


----------



## Petes12 (May 1, 2012)

I like watxm, especially bacchalo's art, but i like uncanny better just because gillen is killing it on that book (and everything else he writes)


----------



## Petes12 (May 1, 2012)

on land, i still don't like him but his art* is* less distracting lately, and when he does stuff where tracing is no go it looks pretty good. 

he's definitely been putting an effort lately into at least not inserting porn faces everywhere, and staying more consistent with how people look.


----------



## Narutossss (May 1, 2012)

You're a bachalo fan pete? hell yeah. I don't care what anyone says he's a pimp :ho


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (May 1, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _from marvel preview_ 



 so uhm yeah







Narutossss said:


> I don't get why Chris bachalo has so many goddamn haters, because his stuff looks catoonish or it isn't generic marvel comic style?! As far as I'm concerned he's one of marvels best.
> 
> I only hope I'm as good as him one day.
> 
> and pete, how can you say uncanny is better than W&xmen when you're sporting an avatar from w&xmen


I'm about to express an unpopular opinion, don't burn me on the stake for it,
well this my input in why I dislike bachalo's art, I find it heavily inconsistent at times, and yes the cartoonish vibe of it also take away from it, it needs to be more clean, also the clutter, makes it hard to follow it, which is not to say he can't make some pretty good spreads, like in WatXM #9, the one with the hellicarrier over the school, it was just freaking awesome.


----------



## Narutossss (May 2, 2012)

Blackfeather Dragon said:


> *Spoiler*: _from marvel preview_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nah.. these are pretty common bachalo complaints. He's pre steampunk art is very tame and clear. Have you read his Death books with gaimon? very clear storytelling but I really like the whole crazyness and energy about his current work. Alot of realistic artists just can't capture the kind of energy he gets in his pages. His stuff can get very confusing tho, like issue 8 of w&xmen.


----------



## Petes12 (May 2, 2012)

why is kubert already doing art for issue 8 :|


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 2, 2012)

Bachalo is okay, but his art is sort of endemic of the W&tXM: It's just really cluttered and kinetic. It's okay some of the time, but Gillen is just a fucking laser with his stories in Uncanny. His tie-in issue for AvX is utterly fantastic, giving characterization to something that desperately needs it.

And I agree that Land has improved recently, but I think that's in large part because of the colorists and inkers he's getting. One of the biggest problems outside of his trace/porn habit was that his colorists made his stuff really, really shiny. It always looked like the people were plastic or something, and it dipped deep into the uncanny valley (IRONY!). With his more recent stuff, it doesn't quite feel like that. Same with the inking; it just doesn't come off like they are trying to imitate photos with his art any more, and that's really to his advantage. The little panel of Namor smiling as he thinks "I would have his woman, of course. But that's a compliment, in its own way." is absolutely great. Favorite panel of the last month.


----------



## Banhammer (May 2, 2012)

mt complaint with bachalo is when shit hits the monochromatic fan
Like, during that spider-man arc with the aztec math nerds. White mess
Or the lizard arc, which was heavily shaded. Call me retarded, but it didn't hit me that connors had killed his kid the first time I read it

Specially when he goes alice in he wonderland on our asses, drawing huge blocky chins on everyone, and with mouths that open wider than their skulls

Sort of works in  a fantasy aluring book such as WATXM, but on other stuff, uugh, I hate it when liefield draws oversized proportions, I won't give bachallo the same standard


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 2, 2012)

Would you guys say that Gillen is currently the best writer at marvel? I know for me JiM and UXM seem to be the best written books month after month, but obviously saying he's the best writer at marvel is a pretty bold claim.

Also, when I say best "at marvel" I mean only judging based on their marvel books.


----------



## Petes12 (May 2, 2012)

well there's remender too


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 2, 2012)

Yeah I'd say him and Aaron would be the only other contenders.


----------



## Petes12 (May 2, 2012)

i'd add in hickman too, even though his stuff can get a little... unwieldy


----------



## shit (May 2, 2012)

gillen, remender, hickman

up on their own echelon at marvel


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 2, 2012)

Oh forgot about Hickman. He's definitely up there. Really excited to see where he lands after AvX.

And I still think Brubaker's great, but Winter Soldier is still warming up, and it really seems like that's the only thing he wants to write for marvel.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (May 2, 2012)

While I'm not fond of how Wolverine is drawn in WATXM, it's still much better than anything I've seen drawn by Ramos.


----------



## Slice (May 2, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> While I'm not fond of how Wolverine is drawn in WATXM, it's still much better than anything I've seen drawn by Ramos.



All this Ramos hate is making me sad.

Sometimes i think me and Typhoon are the only two people actually liking his art.


----------



## shit (May 2, 2012)

I don't dislike his art

but I do get tired of it on ASM


----------



## Petes12 (May 2, 2012)

he's ok on asm but tbh i've never liked him on any other book


----------



## tari101190 (May 2, 2012)

I would say Remender is my fave current Marvel writer, with Hickman second. I think it has to do with the genre as well as the writer for me to enjoy stories, taking art into account too. 

I adore Remender's superhero anti-hero's and superhero-espionage. And from Hickman I love the grand superhero sci-fi stuff. Those are what I gravitate towards more so than straight mainstream superhero-action. I just read events to keep up to date with the universe.

In terms of art I prefer the more realistic drawn pencils, with light inks, but the colours need to look like it is animated. The colours cannot look too realstic. I prefer realstic art, but that still looks like art. I do not want art that looks like it is a live-action photograph or a disproportioned mess.


And Avengers vs X-Men 3 is out. I didn't like it again. 


*Spoiler*: _ Spoilers I guess_ 



The fighting all happened off panel. But atleast Magik apparently beat Doctor Strange. Captain America gets frustrated at Wolverine, punches him out, fights him, and kicks him into the ocean. 

Iron Man even mentions Civil War to say that Cap is acting odd despite what transpired between them before in a similar situation. 

I seriously do not understand why the entire roster of Avengers are being sent all over the world to the most obscure and remote locations to find Hope. I don't see how or why she wouldn't still be in America. Even near San Francisco.

And the art is still the same.




Not looking good so far. I am definitely not going to buy the collection. I guess I'll just buy the fights. Possibly the Uncanny X-Men tie in collection too.


----------



## Petes12 (May 2, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



actually he was kicked into, what, the tundra? antartica? it was snow. 

also it annoys me that they don't commit to an outright win in any fight, like they dont have a true winner of wolverine vs captain america, or any others. in a way they've been more realistic in not just pairing opponents off but its also clear they're avoiding saying one is better than any other.

and lastly, the random locations make a lot more sense in the context of the issue. rachel's sent the avengers on a wild goose chase


----------



## tari101190 (May 2, 2012)

No I still don't see it. Obviously Rachel's info is wrong and Hope doesn't want to be found. Taking that into accountI would just ignore Rachel's info initially and simplly search from her last known location and spread out. Just send only a few Avengers out to the other locations maybe. Okay actually I dunno. It just read like it was overkill.

I wish jean had stayed from  the AoA universe and took care of whatever happened.


----------



## Petes12 (May 2, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> You're a bachalo fan pete? hell yeah. I don't care what anyone says he's a pimp :ho



yeah, i mean i agree his stuff is sometimes cluttered and harder to read, but it looks damn cool


----------



## Narutossss (May 2, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> I would say Remender is my fave current Marvel writer, with Hickman second. I think it has to do with the genre as well as the writer for me to enjoy stories, taking art into account too.
> 
> I adore Remender's superhero anti-hero's and superhero-espionage. And from Hickman I love the grand superhero sci-fi stuff. Those are what I gravitate towards more so than straight mainstream superhero-action. I just read events to keep up to date with the universe.
> 
> In terms of art I prefer the more realistic drawn pencils, with light inks, but the colours need to look like it is animated. The colours cannot look too realstic. I prefer realstic art, but that still looks like art. I do not want art that looks like it is a live-action photograph or a disproportioned mess.


I totally agree. I do like realistic art but not PHOTOREALISTIC, I just can't stand that stuff y'know. When you draw from a collection of photos, they're  in different perspective and you can tell somethings off somehow and that completely distracts me from what I'm reading. I like leinil yu kinda realistic but hate deodato jr kinda realistic.

Francis yu 


deodato jr


and this is the kinda of realistic I just can't stomach... this is going too FAR!!(Don't know the artist)


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 2, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'd wager she's sending them both on a wild goose chase, and intends to meet with Hope herself.

And did Cap really just kick Wolverine out of a fucking plane? Wow.


----------



## the box (May 2, 2012)

this is going to be one kick ass event


----------



## Petes12 (May 2, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



superheroes can't settle differences by talking it out


----------



## Blinky (May 2, 2012)

I liked this AvX besides Cap being really quick to fuck over Wolverine.


----------



## Banhammer (May 2, 2012)

I liked it because of it.

Also this 


Is an amazing artist and I give him all the props.
If he produced more often he'd make a quick jog to my favorite


----------



## Petes12 (May 2, 2012)

it looks a lot better like that than it did finished with colors etc


----------



## Blinky (May 2, 2012)

That Venom looks like a plasticine statue.


----------



## typhoon72 (May 2, 2012)

What shit this issue was. Wouldnt be surprised if Marvel is recycling events and Cap turns out to be a skrull after this.


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 2, 2012)

typhoon72 said:


> What shit this issue was. Wouldnt be surprised if Marvel is recycling events and Cap turns out to be a skrull after this.



What if that kind-of unhinged 1950's Cap replaced the real one? That one that walked off a while ago in Brubaker's run? Or did he bring him back already?


----------



## typhoon72 (May 2, 2012)

I thought unhinged Cap was in the Ultimate verse? Or maybe thats just badass Cap 

Im gonna be pissed if the Phoenix is targeting Steve and its what's making him go crazy, this shit reminds me of Shadowland all too much right now. I wouldnt doubt it with this level of writing.


----------



## Banhammer (May 2, 2012)

I don't blame cap.

Distancing himself from the would-be child murderer is the first hint of steve being secretly sensible we that had this whole event.
But yeah, cute, has unbreakable skeleton and healing factor, but he goes at Captain America with his claws out. Even goes for a gut wound

:33



Blinky said:


> That Venom looks like a plasticine statue.



what texture do you give to black jizz?


----------



## Banhammer (May 2, 2012)

his conversation prior to the confrontation was retarded though, which is why I skipped it while reading the actual issue


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 2, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> his conversation prior to the confrontation was retarded though, which is why I skipped it while reading the actual issue



You'd think they'd have that argument back on Utopia. You know, where you can just say "You're off the mission" and he just walks off. Instead, you decide to take the guy who can totally unhinge himself onto a plane and say "Yeah, you have to stay in the car. Sorry."


----------



## Phantom Roxas (May 2, 2012)

Clayton Crain's art is spectacular.

In the first issue, didn't Iron Man have something that would detect if any residual energy from the Phoenix Force was around? Couldn't he try something similar to track Hope?


----------



## Zen-aku (May 2, 2012)

So Wolverine isn't on ether side? Huh that works.

Cap is dumb if he thinks stranding Logan in the middle of no where slow him down,  the man has more connections then fury.


----------



## Banhammer (May 3, 2012)

lol, and so it begins





Guy Gardner said:


> You'd think they'd have that argument back on Utopia. You know, where you can just say "You're off the mission" and he just walks off. Instead, you decide to take the guy who can totally unhinge himself onto a plane and say "Yeah, you have to stay in the car. Sorry."



Stay in the plane

I CUT YOU CAPTAIN AMERICA


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 3, 2012)

Slice said:


> All this Ramos hate is making me sad.
> 
> Sometimes i think me and Typhoon are the only two people actually liking his art.



When he drew the Romita Sr. cover of ASM where the Green Goblin drags an unmasked Spider-Man through the air, some people were... unappreciative.


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 3, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _AvX #3 reactions_ 



Scott Summers you smart fuck 

Cap was a total ass 

and guess we got a separate wolverine story now.... again 

and lol at Namor's Cerberus and the 5 locations for Hope


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 3, 2012)

So what did Scott do in this issue? 

I'm really only interested in AvX to see what kind of kooky troll tactics Scott busts out. Loved the preview for WATXM

*Scott shows up on wolverine's doorstep*
Wolverine: RARGH GTFO
Scott: Oh I'm sorry, I thought this was a sanctuary for mutants?


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 3, 2012)

Scott owned all of them, strategies and what not... guess that whole mutant desperation thing helped train him for this

he was also able to make Avengers believe, via their "own" tools that Hope is in 5 diff locations, namely, Wundagore, Tabula Rasa, Latveria, Wakanda and Savage Land

cant wait for Avengers to raid Dr. Doom's place searching for Hope 

and yeah, he's gonna visit Weschester cuz of that, we'll see how it goes from here


damn, now I want a Cyclops set... but yeah, Kudos to the "Mutant Leader", he sure deserved the leadership role today


----------



## Banhammer (May 3, 2012)

All places where mutants have the upper hand


----------



## tari101190 (May 4, 2012)

Ok so the _event _or whatever after AvsX is *Age of Ultron*. I am looking forward to that much more. Finally a reintroduction of Ultron for someone new like me is good since he's always sounded intresting, and I only know him from the Avengers series. S.W.O.R.D. also seem to play abig role in it too which is great s I am also interested inh them too.


----------



## Kanali (May 5, 2012)

Oh yeah, I remember a preview of that in Point One but I completely forgot about it until now. Sounds interesting.


----------



## Banhammer (May 5, 2012)

Ultron Vs Unit


----------



## Banhammer (May 5, 2012)

also, just read the previews


Boy am I looking forward to watch squirming


----------



## Glued (May 5, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> So Wolverine isn't on ether side? Huh that works.
> 
> Cap is dumb if he thinks stranding Logan in the middle of no where slow him down,  the man has more connections then fury.



Explain how Wolverine has more connections than a man with government funding behind him?


----------



## Phantom Roxas (May 7, 2012)

It really is kind of sad that Age of Ultron sounds more exciting than the current event. I'm curious how that one will work, considering that it's bound to have tie-ins, and I would think that Bendis would keep writing the Avengers books until AoU was over.


----------



## LIL_M0 (May 7, 2012)

So... Are any of the other tie-ins worth reading, cause AvX: Versus sucked.


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 7, 2012)

LIL_M0 said:


> So... Are any of the other tie-ins worth reading, cause AvX: Versus sucked.



Only Uncanny X-Men so far


----------



## LIL_M0 (May 7, 2012)

Thanks.


----------



## Parallax (May 7, 2012)

If you're a fan Wolverine and The X-Men is good too


----------



## Zen-aku (May 7, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Explain how Wolverine has more connections than a man with government funding behind him?



Their isn't a continent on the planet that wolverine doesn't have a shit ton of contacts, friends, Enimeis that owe him favors, or girlfriends he can charm


----------



## Glued (May 7, 2012)

And your still putting him above Fury?


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 7, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Their isn't a continent on the planet that wolverine doesn't have a shit ton of contacts, friends, Enimeis that owe him favors, or girlfriends he can charm



and Cap or Fury doesn't? Wolverine's resources are not as good as you make them out to be. especially when a ton of them aren't going to be willing to help him.


----------



## Petes12 (May 7, 2012)

stupid argument

wolverine's stranded in the tundra probably with no communications 

its a moot point


----------



## Narutossss (May 7, 2012)

wow another event right after AvX. damn marvel is going nuts... how the fuck can I get into their comics if they're pumping out shit events all the time. Can they even call these things events anymore when they happen so often.


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 7, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> wow another event right after AvX. damn marvel is going nuts... how the fuck can I get into their comics if they're pumping out shit events all the time. Can they even call these things events anymore when they happen so often.



It's probably happening alongside AvX like Spider Island and Schism did last year with Fear Itself. and it will probably only include a couple books

Ultron War actually looks promising though. and it's something that we've known has been coming for a while now


----------



## Petes12 (May 7, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> wow another event right after AvX. damn marvel is going nuts... how the fuck can I get into their comics if they're pumping out shit events all the time. Can they even call these things events anymore when they happen so often.



dont think its a major event

just read books that don't really tie into them much. or books that do the tie ins well


----------



## Narutossss (May 7, 2012)

I just don't like reading on goings in fear they might turn into tie ins or have to deal with the aftermath of some shit event... just wanna read comics in peace. Why can't marvel just make self contained events and leave it at that.


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 7, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> I just don't like reading on goings in fear they might turn into tie ins or have to deal with the aftermath of some shit event... just wanna read comics in peace. Why can't marvel just make self contained events and leave it at that.



Wasn't Spider-Island pretty much this? And I definitely agree with the sentiment.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 8, 2012)

Self contained events are great, but I don't think line wide events are always terrible. Some events (particularly Avengers events) makes sense that they would touch the entire marvel U. But that dosn't mean we need one of those every freaking year.


----------



## shit (May 8, 2012)

latest avengers, tony talks about being director of shield when HE HAS NO MEMORY OF IT stupidstupidstupidstupidstupid


----------



## Aion Hysteria (May 9, 2012)

Well so far it's not been as cringe worthy as I thought it'd be.
​


----------



## Taleran (May 9, 2012)

This is kinda ridiculous



Also a great laugh at Morrison's run.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 9, 2012)

X-shaped Earth reminds me of Emperor Joker.

That can't be good for PR.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (May 9, 2012)

Hopefully Act Two marks an improvement in the story.

I don't think Age of Ultron will happen during AvX like Spider-Island and Schism did with Fear Itself. Schism actually tied in with Fear Itself while Spider-Island just happened at the same time.

What I did is pick up Carnage: Family Feud, pick out the various plot threads that were mentioned, and look for where to start.


----------



## Petes12 (May 9, 2012)

whats it got to do with new x-men tal?


----------



## Taleran (May 9, 2012)

It is a planet in a specific shape.


----------



## lucky (May 9, 2012)

i'm liking this so far.  different rounds of battle amongst the teams as opposed to one huge slugfest.

Though im still incredibly annoyed at the Thing beating Namor-- underwater, to boot.

he doesn't even have the excuse that magneto has-- mags decided that he had to lose and avengers were right concerning phoenix.


----------



## shit (May 9, 2012)

the namor fight was so stupid
namor swings and hits thing with a big fish and is somehow knocked down himself FOR NO REASON
I had to flip back to see if I missed something but there was nothing to miss
namor was just on the sea floor cuz I guess a sea current swept him away like a rag doll


----------



## creative (May 9, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> wow another event right after AvX. damn marvel is going nuts... how the fuck can I get into their comics if they're pumping out shit events all the time. Can they even call these things events anymore when they happen so often.


I just ignore the tie-in event and stick to online resources to see what happened in said event if I don't like it. the only thing that sorta urks me is the namor vs thing fight but everything else in AVX has been surprisingly...not shit.


----------



## Glued (May 9, 2012)

aubro said:


> the namor fight was so stupid
> namor swings and hits thing with a big fish and is somehow knocked down himself FOR NO REASON
> I had to flip back to see if I missed something but there was nothing to miss
> namor was just on the sea floor cuz I guess a sea current swept him away like a rag doll



Ben buried himself in a hydrothermal vent to allow pressure to build up. When Namor hit him, it caused an eplosion, 

However that is dumb in itself, since it would probably take a volcano to knock out Namro.


----------



## shit (May 9, 2012)

also I'm glad cap punched wolverine and had his buddies throw him out an airplane

+1 respect for cap from me

best issue so far is bru's, and bru proves to me that he can write a decent spiderman, and I want him on ASM now


----------



## Petes12 (May 9, 2012)

he wrote like 2 lines for spider-man, saying 'wolverine you were regrowing your flesh, yuck'

not sure how that qualifies as proof he writes a good spider-man


----------



## Zen-aku (May 10, 2012)

Legacy was bad.

Like it made me angry.

Are they trying to make all the X-men look like whiny irrational bitches?


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 10, 2012)

Wolverine and The X-Men was hilarious.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Wolverine's X-men: We need to get involved with this.
Wolverine: You're welcome to come with me (referring to going with the avengers)
Wolverine's X-men: Yeahhhh about that...GO TEAM CYCLOPS!




But when is WATXM set? I guess before he gets tossed


----------



## shit (May 10, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> he wrote like 2 lines for spider-man, saying 'wolverine you were regrowing your flesh, yuck'
> 
> not sure how that qualifies as proof he writes a good spider-man



he knows his voice, so he'd be decent

man I want to see his take on that book, don't rain on my optimism, hmf


----------



## Parallax (May 10, 2012)

Petes job is to step on dreams


----------



## Heavenly King (May 10, 2012)

I have to see how spider man is going to be Peter smh


----------



## Banhammer (May 10, 2012)

I liked Legacy
Rogue's gonna rogue


----------



## Phantom Roxas (May 10, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> he wrote like 2 lines for spider-man, saying 'wolverine you were regrowing your flesh, yuck'
> 
> not sure how that qualifies as proof he writes a good spider-man



He's expressed interest in writing Spider-Man. If he wrote Spider-Man more, possibly by stepping in for Avenging sometimes, he could succeed Slott as the writer of ASM.

CBR has previews for Avengers vs. X-Men #4 and Uncanny X-Men #12 .


----------



## Petes12 (May 10, 2012)

zeb wells for ASM please.


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 10, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> He's expressed interest in writing Spider-Man. If he wrote Spider-Man more, possibly by stepping in for Avenging sometimes, he could succeed Slott as the writer of ASM.
> 
> CBR has previews for Avengers vs. X-Men #4 and Uncanny X-Men #12 .



Wait how long has Hepzibah been on earth? I don't remember any of the Starjammers coming back with Havok


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 10, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> zeb wells for ASM please.



But he's already writing *A*venging *S*pider-*M*an. 

Seriously though, once Slott's run his course I'd be okay with it. But Avenging is a pretty fun book.


----------



## Petes12 (May 10, 2012)

no Immonen's writing Avenging now, she's good too. And then DeConnick for an issue or 2 to promote her captain marvel series. And who knows after her.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 10, 2012)

Ah really? I thought Zeb was just off for that issue. Huh, well alright. If Ends of The Earth is Slott's last spidey hurrah, I'd be more than okay with Zeb taking over.


----------



## Petes12 (May 10, 2012)

It's not, he's got a Lizard arc  (surprise surprise) after Ends of the Earth, and then supposedly a Hobgoblin story.


----------



## creative (May 10, 2012)

I forgot how fun avenging spider man is. Wells does a great job capturing Peter's character in that book. Reading spider island feels like a dragough. I think I will skip the cloak and dagger crap.


----------



## Banhammer (May 10, 2012)

I'm not reading Avenging actually. Is it 616 con.?


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 10, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I'm not reading Avenging actually. Is it 616 con.?



Yes it recently was used for the Omega Effect crossover. it's essentially Spider-Man Team-Up


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 10, 2012)

a creative color said:


> I forgot how fun avenging spider man is. Wells does a great job capturing Peter's character in that book. Reading spider island feels like a dragough. I think I will skip the cloak and dagger crap.



Cloak and Dagger......crap?

What do you not like about it? I thought that series was great, and honestly I wish it had been turned into an ongoing.


----------



## Banhammer (May 10, 2012)

"I wasn't there to save Jean. I'm gonna do everything in my power to save hope"
"Fine, come with the avengers, that's all we're trying to do. Well, they're trying to do. I'm trying to stab her to death"


----------



## creative (May 10, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> Cloak and Dagger......crap?
> 
> What do you not like about it? I thought that series was great, and honestly I wish it had been turned into an ongoing.


 I'm overwhelmed at the moment with reading scarlet spider, venom, spider-island and avenging spider-man. I barely glazed over C&D so yeah, I guess haven't given it a shot.

I will give it a the comic a fare chance sometime later though.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (May 10, 2012)

Zeb Wells did a great job on the Carnage mini, and I'm looking forward to picking up the trade for Carnaga U.S.A. I'm guessing that he'll be writing Minimum Carnage as well, making this a trilogy. However, it was pointed out to me that Wells wrote Shed, although I still want Wells on Amazing.

Slott is going to stay until the end of the year, since he'll be writing issue #700.


----------



## Bergelmir (May 11, 2012)

So I guess we'll be getting a new Iron Man for a short while. The Tronnification suggests Stane or one of Mandarin's lackeys.


----------



## shit (May 11, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> Zeb Wells did a great job on the Carnage mini, and I'm looking forward to picking up the trade for Carnaga U.S.A. I'm guessing that he'll be writing Minimum Carnage as well, making this a trilogy. However, it was pointed out to me that Wells wrote Shed, although I still want Wells on Amazing.
> 
> Slott is going to stay until the end of the year, since he'll be writing issue #700.



you mean Shed with Lizard? I thought that was Van Lente...

anyway that was a fucking awesome arc, best of Gauntlet besides Rhino, no question


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 11, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> So I guess we'll be getting a new Iron Man for a short while. The Tronnification suggests Stane or one of Mandarin's lackeys.



I like that Tony's purging all iron man tech from his system just so Hammer can't keep tabs on him.

I hope at the end of this Hammer realizes that Tony w/ armor that you can keep track of is less of a threat than armorless Tony that you can't keep track of.


----------



## Bergelmir (May 11, 2012)

Definitely. Hopefully Fraction will use this as an opportunity to show us a Stark devising all sorts of funky gadgetry. Its the one thing I've always felt Stark lacked. All his tech is just Iron Man tech (or deus ex machina tech).


----------



## Glued (May 11, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Definitely. Hopefully Fraction will use this as an opportunity to show us a Stark devising all sorts of funky gadgetry. Its the one thing I've always felt Stark lacked. *All his tech is just Iron Man tech (or deus ex machina tech)*.



Does he have Iron Shark Repellent


----------



## Banhammer (May 11, 2012)

Yes. Its money


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 11, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Definitely. Hopefully Fraction will use this as an opportunity to show us a Stark devising all sorts of funky gadgetry. Its the one thing I've always felt Stark lacked. All his tech is just Iron Man tech (or deus ex machina tech).



Agreed. Tony should be the greatest weaponsmith in the marvel U, not just the greatest armorsmith.


----------



## Bergelmir (May 11, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Does he have Iron Shark Repellent





Its too bad the 70s Iron Man didn't have Bat shenanigans. Can you imagine him running around with something like Anti-Chinese Repellent to use against the Mandarin.


----------



## tari101190 (May 11, 2012)

So once again Uncanny X-Men was far better than Avengers vs X-men. Showing an entertaining fight with decent art.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 11, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Its too bad the 70s Iron Man didn't have Bat shenanigans. Can you imagine him running around with something like Anti-Chinese Repellent to use against the Mandarin.



Silver Age Iron Man had the darndest devices sometimes.

He had roller skate wheels on his feet and giant scissors for tunneling.

IIRC he also had to pull out some devices by hand, as if from a utility belt.


----------



## tari101190 (May 11, 2012)

Oh look, Thanos has appeared as the main villain in the new Avengers Assemble comic series.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (May 11, 2012)

Hopefully it explains how Thanos survived the events of The Thanos Imperative, although I'm more concerned with the timeline regarding Avengers Assemble and AvX. I understand why Thanos is the main villain, but shouldn't he try and use the book to set up Age of Ultron?


----------



## shit (May 11, 2012)

is Assemble even 616?


----------



## Petes12 (May 11, 2012)

almost certain it is, but i'm going off what i remember about reading the announcement/interviews or whatever.


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (May 12, 2012)

Shi"ar Death Squad galore!!


----------



## Banhammer (May 12, 2012)

Kids should never be put in harms way
Oh look, hellion marched in like a jackass and now he's got another concussion


----------



## Kanali (May 12, 2012)

Thanos is a great villain but I don't see the point in bringing him back now with AvX ongoing and the Age of Ultron looming on the horizon.


----------



## creative (May 12, 2012)

whoa whoa whoa. avengers assemble is 616?
seriously?


----------



## Shin_Yagami (May 12, 2012)

So what are the opinions on AvX so far?

I have a feeling I'm going to look forward to end, sometime real soon, one of those Flashpoint or Shadowland crossovers where they ruined an idea with a lot of potential.

A low point for me personally was


*Spoiler*: __ 



Thing beating Namor underwater...... And in particular the manner how it was done. The match ups of the next chapter also make me anticipate awful battles. Gambit VS Cap seems like a default win for Cap, besides being horribly OOC during this event, he also happens to be a major player so I can't imagine another outcome. Spidey shouldn't stand a chance against a mystically enhanced Col who already was in the 80-100 ton range on his own. Anything but a Col win seems as unlikely as The Thing beating Namor underwater and leaving him conscious but bound by crossing two giant fish tusks around his neck.....Wait....


----------



## shit (May 12, 2012)

well when you have over half a dozen writers on an event, it's gonna be up and down


----------



## Shin_Yagami (May 12, 2012)

Yeah, but so far everything has been either between in the middle or down. It's not an event I'm enjoying like Dark Reign or Civil War. With most of these events it feels like they are so concerned with tying in as many titles as possible and making as many events as possible in each year that these events usually end up not living up to their potential.

Like this AvX seems way too fast and to forced, I'm finding it hard to believe that Cap would act this OOC in that timespan.


----------



## shit (May 12, 2012)

there's two kinds of events, status quo events and game changer events

status quo events like dark reign and house of m and civil war linger on for a long time and are generally really thought out and awesome
game changer events like world war hulk and siege and secret invasion and fear itself and avx are generally short, tie in crazy, and pretty bad


----------



## Petes12 (May 12, 2012)

dark reign wasnt an event


----------



## Shin_Yagami (May 12, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> dark reign wasnt an event



What would you call it then?



shit said:


> there's two kinds of events, status quo events and game changer events
> 
> status quo events like dark reign and house of m and civil war linger on for a long time and are generally really thought out and awesome
> game changer events like world war hulk and siege and secret invasion and fear itself and avx are generally short, tie in crazy, and pretty bad



I'm getting tired of the game changer events, some of them had their moments or were good (in their main series mostly) but I'm getting so tired of these events were either:
A: a evil like never seen before forces everyone to unite and overcome great tragedy.
b: Pits group A and Group B against each other for some reason

I'm getting kinda desensitized at this point, Schism was followed up almost immediately by AvX. We barely had time to really discover how this changes the mutant community before they are pretty much forced to work together again.
Same with the mysterious new and all powerful evil focing everyone together events, the only thing I liked about FI was that Iron man made weapon power up. It was hyped for months, then lasted about 2 issues........ Even that was disappointing.


----------



## Petes12 (May 12, 2012)

a status quo that got its own little banner across a bunch of books. like initiative after civil war, heroic age after siege, and battle scars after fear itself

big events are followed by these status quo things that reflect the changes that came about from the event.


----------



## Banhammer (May 13, 2012)

Dark Reign was sort of an event


----------



## tari101190 (May 13, 2012)

Dark Reign and Heroic Age were not technically events. They were like just mini-age periods of comics between big events.

Civil War led to the The Initiative Period.

Secret Invasion led to the Dark Reign Period.

Seige led to the Heroic Age Period.

Shattered Heroes may be the name for post-Fear Itself period, due to schism and AvsX.

EDIT: Oh petes already said some of this.


----------



## LIL_M0 (May 13, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> *Wait how long has Hepzibah been on earth?* I don't remember any of the Starjammers coming back with Havok


Since 2008, I think, towards the end of X-Men: The Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire. She was on the ship with the X-Men, regrouping after Vulcan killed Corsair and D'Ken. Lilandra made the ship take Xavier home, leaving the remaining X-Men behind to become the new Starjammers. 

She was even on X-Force for a while during Messih Complex.


----------



## Banhammer (May 13, 2012)

dark reign has sort ofa solid structure actually
norman goes to power
seduces void
assembles a cabal
loki plots a series of events
colapse in siege


----------



## creative (May 14, 2012)

I still think that civil war is a decent event. call me crazy for only reading comics for roughly a year but I feel the event would have been endlessly better if there was an effort to make whichever side you choose less one sided. I thought the editorial department was personally punishing me for agreeing with ironman.


----------



## Petes12 (May 14, 2012)

that's pretty much how we all felt about it haha.

Honestly I think it was more Millar than editorial though. He tried to make a topical story about how America at the time was too willing to give up freedom for 'safety', except that he framed it as an issue of superheroes being accountable for their actions, which, oops, is pretty fucking reasonable. So to make it work he had to make iron man's side unbelievably unreasonable in other ways.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 14, 2012)

Yeah, I know people give marvel/fraction crap for the whole amnesia thing with Tony, but  I'm not even a big Iron Man fan and I had a huge problem with Iron Fascist. I'm glad they did something to kinda absolve him of some of those actions.

But yeah, Marvel needs to do more things like Dark Reign. Like Age of Ultron would be cool if it had a dark reign like period where Ultron is in control and the heroes have to go underground and form a resistance.


----------



## creative (May 14, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> Yeah, I know people give marvel/fraction crap for the whole amnesia thing with Tony, but  I'm not even a big Iron Man fan and I had a huge problem with Iron Fascist. I'm glad they did something to kinda absolve him of some of those actions.
> 
> But yeah, Marvel needs to do more things like Dark Reign. Like Age of Ultron would be cool if it had a dark reign like period where Ultron is in control and the heroes have to go underground and form a resistance.



I could dig that. I really miss having villains that actually force heroes to work with one another for better or worse. I guess that's why I stayed with comics earlier this year when I caught up with reading secret avengers during the heroic age. shit I could deal with an event that's focused soley on mavel's big bads.


----------



## Banhammer (May 14, 2012)

So...

Terminator?


----------



## creative (May 14, 2012)

Terminator.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 14, 2012)

Yes, Terminator 

But without all the time travel and chosen one crap


----------



## Parallax (May 14, 2012)

I would be ok with Terminator, it would be fun


----------



## Banhammer (May 14, 2012)

I would be ok with Lord Ultron in general


----------



## shit (May 16, 2012)




----------



## Petes12 (May 16, 2012)

Why shit, why?


----------



## Petes12 (May 16, 2012)

ps: AvX was terrible, once again I'm going to blame the art mostly. 

Uncanny X-men was awesome though, again. Thanks to Namor this time


----------



## shit (May 16, 2012)

I just watched Thor (the movie)

was good

the love angle only annoyed me once


----------



## Zen-aku (May 16, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> ps: AvX was terrible, once again I'm going to blame the art mostly.



I thought it was really good actually, i like the Logan and hope moment. She actually wen't with Cap's plan.


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 16, 2012)

That was Logan's doing tho, he just contacted Cap

also

Uncanny X-Men > AvX

IMPERIUS REX!


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 16, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> I thought it was really good actually, i like the Logan and hope moment. She actually wen't with Cap's plan.



If Cap's plan is to take her to the moon, then why does he say "We can't let you do what you want"?


----------



## Zen-aku (May 16, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> If Cap's plan is to take her to the moon, then why does he say "We can't let you do what you want"?



Caps plan was to take her to the moon and try to stop the phoenix, hope still want's to try and control it.

Between stark building a Phoenix killer and the success in Avengers 26, it seems like the avengers do stand a chance of putting the fucking bird down.


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 16, 2012)

In before all the planets it destroyed on it's way to earth bring Galactus back to Earth for his annual two month appearence.

and don't say that's not likely because this event is bound to throw all kind of retared at us by the time it's over

needless to say this issue was decent in my opion...it was by Hickman right this issue?


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 16, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Caps plan was to take her to the moon and try to stop the phoenix, hope still want's to try and control it.
> 
> Between stark building a Phoenix killer and the success in Avengers 26, it seems like the avengers do stand a chance of putting the fucking bird down.



but why ask Rachel and split Avengers in 5 diff places then? 

did he beat up wolverine knowing that Hope will find him? 

maybe this plan was made after Wolverine contacted him, which means Cap only called the shots to let her go through with it, its more reacting to what falls on his lap



Emperor Joker said:


> In before all the planets it destroyed on it's way to earth bring Galactus back to Earth for his annual two month appearence.
> 
> and don't say that's not likely because this event is bound to throw all kind of retared at us by the time it's over
> 
> needless to say this issue was decent in my opion...it was by Hickman right this issue?



Would be interesting to see the big guy again


----------



## Zen-aku (May 16, 2012)

Michael Lucky said:


> but why ask Rachel and split Avengers in 5 diff places then?


 rachel was the one who said hope was in 5 different places



> did he beat up wolverine knowing that Hope will find him?


they had a fight, things were said people were  drooped out of planes, but Wolverine is still on cap's side and their both big enough to still work together despite their irritation

Its interesting to note how very Avenger Wolverine is being through this event


----------



## Petes12 (May 16, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> I thought it was really good actually, i like the Logan and hope moment. She actually wen't with Cap's plan.



what plan?

my understanding was hope's plan was to go to the moon to try and control it there out of people's way. cap showed up because wolverine told him where they were going


----------



## Zen-aku (May 16, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> what plan?
> 
> my understanding was hope's plan was to go to the moon to try and control it there out of people's way. cap showed up because wolverine told him where they were going



Hopes plan, is the  plan Cyke and cap would  of eventually agreed to had Cycke not ended the argument.

Cap's plan was to take hope off planet while they try and stop the pheonix

Cyke's was to have  hope try and control it


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 16, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Caps plan was to take her to the moon and try to stop the phoenix, hope still want's to try and control it.



No, his plan is to fly it out into space, not the moon. Just flying her out to the moon and thinking that would change things is the equivalent to duck and cover.

It seems like Hope wanted to go to the moon so that no one would find her, taking Wolverine with her as a fail-safe. That's closer to a synthesis of Scott and Wolverine's plans more than anything. It's pretty damn obvious that Cap wants to take her off the moon, otherwise why would she be arguing? It's not like he's going to kill her or anything.


----------



## Zen-aku (May 16, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> No, his plan is to fly it out into space, not the moon. Just flying her out to the moon and thinking that would change things is the equivalent to duck and cover.



It was stated in  NA i believe that cap was gonna take her to the moon while the SA and stark tried to stop the phoenix.


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 16, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> It was stated in  NA i believe that cap was gonna take her to the moon while the SA and stark tried to stop the phoenix.



We are talking about a cosmic entity which can travel massive stellar distance in days. Putting it on the moon and expecting it to make a difference is like moving a pound of C4 outside of your bedroom door and assuming your safe.

And that doesn't explain why he said Hope can't do what she wants. Hope wants to _wait on the moon._ It is _*stated.*_ If he's going to just stay on the moon, then what the fuck is he talking about? 

He obviously wants to move her as far away from Earth as possible to actually buy time. He knows that putting the thing on the moon and spitting distance from Earth does not constitute a real change and buys them no time at all. That's why Hope is all up in arms about what's going on. She wants to meet the Phoenix without being found by either team.

Edit: In New Avengers #24, he says "Off planet", not the moon. While the moon is "off planet", since they aren't going with Hope's plan to wait on the moon, he obviously doesn't consider this to be far enough away.


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 16, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> rachel was the one who said hope was in 5 different places



and he followed through with splitting avengers into 5 locations

and he was in one of them until wolverine notified him about Hope

was kind enough of him after Cap beat him up and left him stranded if you think about it


----------



## ghstwrld (May 16, 2012)

*BOMBSHELL!!!!!!!!!*




> Allred takes over for regular artist Chris Samnee and teams with writer Mark Waid for one issue, Daredevil issue 17, which comes out in August and will feature Allred's distinctive pop-art style.
> 
> The issue will be a part of "the ongoing Daredevil soap opera," editor Stephen Wacker says, but also stand on its own. "It's part madcap, but also a very personal story.






  I may have to pick up DD again.


----------



## Zen-aku (May 16, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> And that doesn't explain why he said Hope can't do what she wants. Hope wants to _wait on the moon._ It is _*stated.*_ If he's going to just stay on the moon, then what the fuck is he talking about?


 She is still planning on merging with it, Cap isn't gonna let that happen if he can avoid it.



> He obviously wants to move her as far away from Earth as possible to actually buy time. He knows that putting the thing on the moon and spitting distance from Earth does not constitute a real change and buys them no time at all. That's why Hope is all up in arms about what's going on. She wants to meet the Phoenix without being found by either team.
> 
> Edit: In New Avengers #24, he says "Off planet", not the moon. While the moon is "off planet", since they aren't going with Hope's plan to wait on the moon, he obviously doesn't consider this to be far enough away.


wait, maybe your right, i remember it being stated he was gonna take her to the moon some where.


----------



## shit (May 16, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> In before all the planets it destroyed on it's way to earth bring Galactus back to Earth for his annual two month appearence.
> 
> and don't say that's not likely because this event is bound to throw all kind of retared at us by the time it's over
> 
> needless to say this issue was decent in my opion...it was by Hickman right this issue?



no, if galactus shows up, it's gonna be even weirder that the F4 is nowhere to be seen since G is now franklin's freaking property


----------



## Banhammer (May 16, 2012)

to surprise of no one, A vs X was retarded


----------



## Petes12 (May 17, 2012)

apparently capullo turned down drawing AvX and wolverine to draw batman instead.

damn. I'm glad he went with batman, but how much better would this event be with his art


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 17, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> apparently capullo turned down drawing AvX and wolverine to draw batman instead.
> 
> damn. I'm glad he went with batman, but how much better would this event be with his art



It'd be like Fear Itself with nice art and a shitty story?


----------



## Petes12 (May 17, 2012)

Well maybe, or maybe it'd be an 'ok' story with good art. I mean, a lot of the problems so far have been that the scripts are trying to show you all these 'awesome' locations and amazing fights in quick vignettes, and trying to sell a clash of loyalties where emotions run high, and the art doesn't do ANYTHING for any of that.


----------



## Zen-aku (May 17, 2012)

the Art in Versus is pretty awesome though.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 17, 2012)

ghstwrld said:


> I may have to pick up DD again.



It had to happen.


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 17, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> Well maybe, or maybe it'd be an 'ok' story with good art. I mean, a lot of the problems so far have been that the scripts are trying to show you all these 'awesome' locations and amazing fights in quick vignettes, and trying to sell a clash of loyalties where emotions run high, and the art doesn't do ANYTHING for any of that.



I'm not sure that's an art problem. I mean, it's hard to sell these 'vignette fights' when they are short and completely meaningless by the end of the issue. If they meant something or added up to something, then I'd agree. But this entire issue basically showed off a bunch of fights that _literally_ didn't matter by the end of it and had accomplished absolutely nothing.


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2012)

Heroes fight all the time, you don't have to sell it to me, all I ask is that you don't insult me and my inteligence

I mean spider man vs collosus?In latveria? Really?


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2012)

I'M GOING TO STAB U
What if instead, beer?
You have a minute
What do you think about letting me try to get a hand in the phoenix
You sure you don't want me to stab you instead? Just a little?


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2012)

Oh my God you called the avengers while I was sleeping! This is so much worse than stabbing me

Boy wolverine do  I feel foolish for dumping you out of a plane twenty minutes ago


----------



## sanx021 (May 17, 2012)

lol just read avengers vs x-men 4 Hope is so dumb you would think Cable would have thought her better. 
Why does hope trust wolverine the guy who tried to kill her over Cyclops the guy that is trying to help her


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2012)

Hope is trusting Logan _to_ kill her should indeed the whole phoenix she-bang go awry and Tony Ex Machina inevitably only deals with "most of the threat" while Scott is scripted to never loose faith apparently.

So as a 16 year old, hope is the least dumb acting person in the main event


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 17, 2012)

just like what Jean did in Phoenix Endsong


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2012)

Liked -> Hope's jab to wolverine when she says "I got the fake i.d. from quentin quire."
It a blatant "You're hoarding another Phoenix Host and I _know_ it."
Disliked-> "More and JGInstitutionaires are joining us every minute. So therefore the moon team won't even have the full extinction roster"


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2012)

Michael Lucky said:


> just like what Jean did in Phoenix Endsong



Too bad no one has such an anti-homicidal fail safe against Wolverine


Except for Scott summers


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (May 17, 2012)

What if red hulk....


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2012)

seems legit


----------



## Id (May 17, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> apparently capullo turned down drawing AvX and wolverine to draw batman instead.
> 
> damn. I'm glad he went with batman, but how much better would this event be with his art





Guy Gardner said:


> It'd be like Fear Itself with nice art and a shitty story?



At least we would have something pretty to look at.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 17, 2012)

Sinestro said:


> At least we would have something pretty to look at.



Like Deodato Fongji.


----------



## creative (May 17, 2012)

Sinestro said:


> At least we would have something pretty to look at.


this is what I said when I saw the first twilight movie. pretty ass backrounds were pretty.


----------



## Zen-aku (May 17, 2012)

I still think AVX is pretty good so far.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 17, 2012)

I love how at the end of Invincible Iron Man I was like "Wait, is that a woman? Haven't read this for a while, what black women are in this book? Oh...whoops."

Gotta love Salvador Larocca. He's a great fit for iron man, but wow are his faces weird.


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 17, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Too bad no one has such an anti-homicidal fail safe against Wolverine
> 
> 
> Except for Scott summers



hoho 



Unlosing Ranger said:


> What if red hulk....





I wonder if that happened in the movie 



Zen-aku said:


> I still think AVX is pretty good so far.



I'm enjoying it

altho I have to agree with some people that said Uncanny X-Men has been better.

I mean it kinda is


----------



## creative (May 17, 2012)

oh lord.

captain america beat the stupid outta gambit. #2 of versus was actually great


----------



## Zen-aku (May 17, 2012)

a creative color said:


> oh lord.
> 
> captain america beat the stupid outta gambit. #2 of versus was actually great


 I loved remy's Oh shit! face





Michael Lucky said:


> h
> I'm enjoying it
> 
> altho I have to agree with some people that said Uncanny X-Men has been better.
> ...



I don't agree with hat, nothing is really happening and i feel like ia'm reading the same shit iv'e already read about just from a m ore Pro- X-men view point.

Outside of the main book ive liked  SA and Avengers better seeing them actually fight the phoenix has been great


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 17, 2012)

Well it is just a tie in from the X-Men's point of view 

but I like how well played its been, its well written imo, I like their focus on characters, etc etc



a creative color said:


> oh lord.
> 
> captain america beat the stupid outta gambit. #2 of versus was actually great



yeah I liked it better than last issue


----------



## Petes12 (May 17, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> I loved remy's Oh shit! face
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats just stupid, there's been a lot going on in uncanny that you don't get in AvX, and the writing is so much better 

most importantly it has more namor, but its also more of gillen's character development and progression of the whole 'intimidating extinction team brush with villainy' thing


----------



## Petes12 (May 17, 2012)

VS is pointless and it's attempts at humor are pretty sad


----------



## Zen-aku (May 17, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> VS is pointless and it's attempts at humor are pretty sad


 But the art and action is soo good, i'm not reading that book for plot, iam reading it to watch cap punch gmabit in the face



Petes12 said:


> thats just stupid, there's been a lot going on in uncanny that you don't get in AvX, and the writing is so much better
> 
> most importantly it has more namor, but its also more of gillen's character development and progression of the whole 'intimidating extinction team brush with villainy' thing


But that is Happening in AVX, I've read uncanny's tie ins and its just not doing it for me at all its the same shit as in the main book. But with Land of all people on art.


----------



## Petes12 (May 17, 2012)

I think his art is better in this case than what JRJR's doing

Also, no. Because of what I said above. It's so much better written and more entertaining. You're basically saying no tie in can have any worth.

Plus, it does it's fights way better than that stupid VS series


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 17, 2012)

I actually enjoyed Cap vs Gambit

also about Cap, I prefer his costume in the Captain America: First Avenger Movie, I hope they can use that

I hated the art on spidey vs colossus



Petes12 said:


> thats just stupid, there's been a lot going on in uncanny that you don't get in AvX, and the writing is so much better
> 
> most importantly it has more namor, but its also more of gillen's character development and progression of the whole 'intimidating extinction team brush with villainy' thing



yeah its what I liked about it alot, its just written very well

if only AvX was made like Uncanny X-Men

Namor is badass as always



Petes12 said:


> VS is pointless and it's attempts at humor are pretty sad



agreed to this as well, but its alright for me, could've directed the efforts used on that to something else tho


----------



## Zen-aku (May 17, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I think his art is better in this case than what JRJR's doing







> Also, no. Because of what I said above. It's so much better written and more entertaining. You're basically saying no tie in can have any worth.


No i'm not like ive said i like both avengers tie ins, and the WATXM tie in was great too.  I don't think uncanny is all that  better written ether but i'm not gonna play the comparison game with you.




> Plus, it does it's fights way better than that stupid VS series


Namor fighting a few random avengers then a poorly drawn fight with thing that has no finish doesn't impress me nearly as much as the magneto vs Iron man fight or  the Gambit vs Cap fight, sorry


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 17, 2012)

maybe cuz Uncanny X-Men potrays the characters as they encounter each events whereas AvX is event involving these characters

in this way I kinda value both efforts, you gotta have someone who's pushing the story and another pushing the characters

I mean wasnt mention how they felt about the Moon and Phoenix happening again

I just thought it would be a great addition to AvX and surely Gillen would've been able to work with that


----------



## Zen-aku (May 17, 2012)

Michael Lucky said:


> maybe cuz Uncanny X-Men potrays the characters as they encounter each events whereas AvX is event involving these characters
> 
> in this way I kinda value both efforts, you gotta have someone who's pushing the story and another pushing the characters
> 
> ...



I'm not Saying Uncanny was bad it's just my least favorite tie-in right now. They did  Tie-ins  like that in WWH too  and  i din't like them that much there ether.


----------



## Petes12 (May 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> No i'm not like ive said i like both avengers tie ins, and the WATXM tie in was great too.  I don't think uncanny is all that  better written ether but i'm not gonna play the comparison game with you.
> 
> 
> 
> Namor fighting a few random avengers then a poorly drawn fight with thing that has no finish doesn't impress me nearly as much as the magneto vs Iron man fight or  the Gambit vs Cap fight, sorry



not only that but land's art has done a better job depicting fight scenes than most of the guys in vs who have been pretty fucking clumsy and well below the standards i expect of most of them. 

i know i know, it's land, and i still don't like the photo reference style, but the fact is that his art has not been bad lately. he's done a pretty good job at staging action sequences and that sort of thing. 

certainly a better job than mcniven's awkwardness. 

sorry but uncanny just does what vs wants to do so much better, and then does more


----------



## Agent (May 18, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> I love how at the end of Invincible Iron Man I was like "Wait, is that a woman? Haven't read this for a while, what black women are in this book? Oh...whoops."
> 
> Gotta love Salvador Larocca. He's a great fit for iron man, but wow are his faces weird.



Which issue?

I remember hearing somewhere that Coipel is doing art starting from issue 6 of AvX, so I still have hope for this event.


----------



## tari101190 (May 18, 2012)

So Uncanny X-Men has become the main Avengers vs X-Men book and Namor is the main character. I'm fine with that. Art, fights, scope, characters and development are better than every other Avengers vs X-Men book.

The Wolverine and Hope stuff in Avengers vs X-Men was good though, but I still can't see past the art.

Also I was wrong. The Ultimates is the best Marvel book right now, and Hickman is great.

Fantastic Four 605.1 was VERY interesting for me. Again shows how easy it is for Reed Richards to become the bad guy. Ultimates gives me a chance to see what he is like as a villain. I feel the only thing holding him back is his family. Nazi Reed and Ultimate Reed both don't have families to I guess they can devote their time to rebuilding the world in their own image.

It also had me thinking about The Parliment of Doom. I'm guessing it will mirror 605.1, meaning Doom will successfullly use the Infinity Gauntlet to defeat the Avengers and will be close to destroying the world/galaxy/universe. Perhaps he will be stopped by Franklin or something. Anyway whatever happens, it should be good.

It also got me thinking about Franklin and Valeria. Reed and Doom can apparently easily turn into bad guys under certain conditions, so perhaps they are the same. Frankin is so powerful and yet seems to be on the light side. Varleria seems like she can easily join the dark side, being in frankins shadow doesn't seem to help either.

Anyway FF 605.1 really got me thinking about alot ofthings. I really need to go back and read Hickmans previous Fantastic Four issues. And look more into Reed.


----------



## Zen-aku (May 18, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> So Uncanny X-Men has become the main Avengers vs X-Men book and Namor is the main character. I'm fine with that. Art, fights, scope, characters and development are better than every other Avengers vs X-Men book.



Did i wake up in Bizarro world, It's Greg Land, He didn't suddenly get better he is still Terrible!


----------



## Agent (May 18, 2012)

I picked up Fantastic Four point issue too. It was epic! Definitely not what I was expecting. Now I feel ashamed for skipping out on it for the past few months.


----------



## tari101190 (May 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Did i wake up in Bizarro world, It's Greg Land, He didn't suddenly get better he is still Terrible!


I just said that it was better than the other AvsX books. I didn't say it was 'omg da best book eva'.



Agent said:


> I picked up Fantastic Four point issue too. It was epic! Definitely not what I was expecting. Now I feel ashamed for skipping out on it for the past few months.


I know right? The last few issues were good. I'm going back to find good Hickman FF books. Dark Reign is always a good place to start.


----------



## Zen-aku (May 18, 2012)

^ IT's Still Land, JRJR is much better

i Liked the Incredible Hulk .1 the most out of every thing not AVX related


----------



## tari101190 (May 18, 2012)

As expected, Dark Reign was a great starting point.

I skimmed through Fantastic Four Dark reign, first into of The Bridge and reed learning that he needs to solve everything. He also wuickly realizes that the worlds that achieved peace were usually ones that were led by him alone.

Gonna start reading from issue 570 next. Need to buy the volumes.


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (May 18, 2012)

The Phoenix arrived!!


----------



## shit (May 18, 2012)

I'll be meeting Hickman this weekend at a con

anyone got any comments/questions for him?


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 18, 2012)

Agent said:


> Which issue?
> 
> I remember hearing somewhere that Coipel is doing art starting from issue 6 of AvX, so I still have hope for this event.



The most recent one reveals that the new Iron Man is (surprise surprise) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Rhodes 




But Larocca can't draw faces so I thought it was a woman.

And Land's art is still bad, his whole photoreference style, but everything else he's doing as far as staging and pacing is pretty good. 

And while I prefer Uncanny over WATXM, they're both great books that are significantly better than the main AvX title or versus.

Also, the fight choices so far have just been retarded. Nobody cares about Spidey fighting Colossus (since he freaking can't) or Cap fighting Gambit (since we know gambit has no chance). 

And I thought Gambit could charge organic matter now? Pretty sure he did that in legacy.

Iceman vs. Rulk should be good, although Rulk's whole heat powers are kinda worthless. What other fights are up next? I know we have Magik vs. Black Widow (wtf?).


----------



## Banhammer (May 18, 2012)

Greg Land's worse porn face is still far better than hope's tornado beer flip to wolverine, or stark's orgasm face
UXM is everything avsx has ever wished to be but isn't


----------



## Banhammer (May 18, 2012)

UXM does it best to salvage the main events worse flaw which is making everyone look retarded, specially the mutants.
AvsX is empty useless trash that no one gives a crap about. Only six pages in the entire series are minimally salvageable and even those are only the ones that try to excuse the retardedness of the main event
AVsX is to uxm the same way random deviant art fanfic is to The Avengers film


----------



## Agent (May 18, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> The most recent one reveals that the new Iron Man is (surprise surprise)
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Wait, what? I thought it was..

*Spoiler*: __ 



Tony cause he was telling Reed to hurry up, as in he needed to be there.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 18, 2012)

So I'm a comic n00b and I've read UXM #12. Does Namor really fuck anything that moves ? How much notches on his bedpost ? 


And did some 15-16 in-universe years pass since Hope was born and grew into the present teenager ?


----------



## Petes12 (May 18, 2012)

he doesn't like redheads

and hope was born not long ago, then taken into the future by cable to keep her safe. which didn't work out because they were in constant danger, but anyway she grew up with him and then returned to the present tense


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 18, 2012)

thanks       .


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 18, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> So I'm a comic n00b and I've read UXM #12. Does Namor really fuck anything that moves ? How much notches on his bedpost ?
> 
> 
> And did some 15-16 in-universe years pass since Hope was born and grew into the present teenager ?



Everything but redheads...which seemed to disapoint Hope actually.

Hope grew up time hopping and jumping between dimensions as Cable had to constantly be on the move otherwise Bishop or other enemies would catch them and kill here


----------



## Banhammer (May 18, 2012)

Namor's list of virtues is far lengthier but his prowess with those of the female persuasion is well documented


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 18, 2012)

Agent said:


> Wait, what? I thought it was..
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I think that was prompted by 
*Spoiler*: __ 



that one resilient employee (need to re read) being a mole and attempting to sabatoge/steal data from them 




I think Tony knew that immediate threats would be covered by the new Iron Man. Seeing that armor and how stripped down it is though, I wish they would actually incorporate weapons in an Iron Man/War Machine suit. Like how in MvC the proton cannon just teleports into his hand/shoulder. I'd only want it for war machine, but it'd be cool if he had a bunch of attachments/weapons that could teleport and/or attach onto the armor in an instant.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 18, 2012)

> he doesn't like redheads





> Everything but redheads


Is there some story behind that or just a personal preference ?


----------



## Petes12 (May 18, 2012)

it came up a few issues ago haha, the last time he was in tabula rasa


----------



## creative (May 18, 2012)

I thought that namor  was playing that "no redheads" crack for trolling/avoiding. Complicated bullshit with hope. I seem to remember him being coy as hell,trying to dig into some mary Jane webbing in an old spidey annual.

Like she - hulk, I trust namor can put a knot on his sex drive without being all awkward about it.


----------



## Glued (May 20, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Everything but redheads...which seemed to disapoint Hope actually.
> 
> Hope grew up time hopping and jumping between dimensions as Cable had to constantly be on the move otherwise Bishop or other enemies would catch them and kill here



So is Bishop evil now?


----------



## アストロ (May 20, 2012)

I'm sure somebody has already posted this image.


----------



## Banhammer (May 20, 2012)

ridiculous
Mrs Frost does not Crunk


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 20, 2012)

lmao

wolverine and beast are staanding on the wrong side of the stage tho


----------



## Stringer (May 20, 2012)

Haha, well that's an amusing picture.

Poor bruce banner Hulk was not allowed in on the fun


----------



## creative (May 20, 2012)

Beast and Iron man are like "come at me bro".


Unshaken Faith said:


> Haha, well that's an amusing picture.
> 
> Poor bruce banner Hulk was not allowed in on the fun





			
				Unhaken Truth said:
			
		

> Poor bruce banner Hulk was not allowed in on the fun



wouldn't be fair. he would smash the dance floor.




> So is Bishop evil now?


Bishop is dead now.


----------



## Rukia (May 20, 2012)

Is Secret Avengers any good?


----------



## Banhammer (May 20, 2012)

I dropped it. To far-fetched
Some people like it


----------



## tari101190 (May 20, 2012)

Rukia said:


> Is Secret Avengers any good?


Yeah from 21.1 to 25 is good. Ties into Venom and the Deathlok Uncanny X-Force arc too. Continues properlly from issue 29 I think. Skip the current AvsX tie in stuff. New team and direction.


----------



## Kanali (May 20, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> So is Bishop evil now?



More insane than evil. In his future Hope kills a million humans and lands all the mutants in internment camps where Bishop grows up. He tries to kill Hope to stop that from happening and even completely destroys future worlds in the belief that none of what is happening is "real" because he believes it will all be undone when he kills Hope. It ends with him landing in a desolate wasteland future with a Red Sun and no way of getting back.


----------



## shit (May 20, 2012)

SA is the best avengers book out right now, easily


----------



## Banhammer (May 21, 2012)

At some point it dipped, so now I wouldn't know that

But with uncanny, fantastic four, and journey into mystery out there, that is a big claim to make


----------



## shit (May 21, 2012)

key word was _avengers_


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 21, 2012)

Yeah, SA is still my favorite, although that's not saying much. The avengers line is kinda meh right now. Hopefully after AvX we'll get some good people on new and adjectiveless.


----------



## shit (May 21, 2012)

although, the banter is top notch and o'grady's sacrifice was powerful shit, so I'd put SA on the same level as gillen's and hickman's books


----------



## Banhammer (May 21, 2012)

shit said:


> key word was _avengers_



I stand corrected


----------



## Bergelmir (May 21, 2012)

Hummm, I don't know what to make of the new Captain Marvel preview: 

The mask and mohawk is just ridiculous.


----------



## Petes12 (May 21, 2012)

her hair's just tied up so that when they put a helmet on her it kind of looks like kree mohawks.

so yeah its ridiculous.

but mainly i just wish the artist was better. it's so... muddy or something.


----------



## shit (May 21, 2012)

it's like they're trying to make her as unsexy as possible

which is unfortunate cuz short hair girls are my fetish


----------



## pussyking (May 21, 2012)

havin a hard time trying to figure out wchich marvel comic series to get into that isn't crap half of the time. i've had bad experiences with comic books. mainly stories going nowhere, fights being too short or boring and art not looking anywhere near as awesome as the cover. 

i got into deadpool years ago but even the recent deadpool comics i picked up have been shit.


----------



## Bergelmir (May 21, 2012)

I actually think it was okay without the mask. Dodson's rendition was pretty awesome.

EDIT: 


pussyking said:


> havin a hard time trying to figure out wchich marvel comic series to get into that isn't crap half of the time. i've had bad experiences with comic books. mainly stories going nowhere, fights being too short or boring and art not looking anywhere near as awesome as the cover.
> 
> i got into deadpool years ago but even the recent deadpool comics i picked up have been shit.



*points to sig* Read Immortal Iron Fist if you haven't. Fantastic stuff.

Good Marvel books are Daredevil, Punisher, Wolverine and the X-Men, Journey into Mystery, Uncanny X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, X-Factor. And although most of his run is over, Hickman's Fantastic Four and FF have been superb. I'd add Amazing Spider-Man, but some like it and some don't.


----------



## Petes12 (May 21, 2012)

I like the costume sans mask yeah


----------



## shit (May 21, 2012)

her boobs are blocky as fuck

pussy, try FF, F4, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, and Journey into Mystery


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 21, 2012)

Posting on my lunch break, don't have internet at my new place which is why you poozers have been spared my divinie presense

*Journey Into Mystery*: Still the best book by Marvel. Still perfect. Nothing else has to be said because everyone knows that this is the best comic in the world currently
*Uncanny X-Men*: Another Gillen book so it's excellent. IS THIS WHERE YOU COPULATE? NAMOR FEELS THAT HE IS BEING TALKED ABOUT. THIS IS ONLY CORRECT. The joke was blindingly obvious but I still laughed heartedily after reading it Gillen is my new Hickman/Johns (well he's been it for a while now)
*Wolverine and the X-Men*: Still great. I love the off-beat humour, it meshes PERFECTLY with Aaron's writing. Hasn't been an issue, which was anything less that great and all the characters are well written
*AvX*: Holy fucking shit, worst fucking thing I've read. It is as fucking bad as ultimates 3 and low-ebb level. In my mind, Aaron and Hickman did not actually involve themselves in this fucking piece of shit and had LMDs posing for them. I'd want another Fear Itself or Secret Invasion over how fucking braindead stupid this whole thing is. THERE IS NOTHING POSITIVE FROM THIS SHIT IN ANYWAY AND IF YOU DISAGREE THEN YOU ARE A POOZER FAGET.

I'm serious, I cannot think of anything I've read that left me so illogically raped. EVERYTHING in the fucking piece of shit makes me go "WHY!?!?!? HOW IS THAT LOGICAL?!?!? THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!!!!!"

*Ultimates*: Reread it a few times and I've come to a realization. Just like how I didn't like Hickman's initial story on FF, I didn't like what he did initially in the Ultimate universe. Then I reread the upcoming conflict between the Children and the People. Holy crap it's amazing. MY BROTHER WILL FEAST ON THESE CHILDREN. Then he turns into a god-damned black hole?!?!?! That is the biggest "I've had enough of your shit" thing you can do and he did

*FF & FF*: Both great as usual. I've really like the issue when Reed goes into the future and sees Ben then has that moment at the end of the comic. Really made me like Reed, much like how he made Johhny and Sue likeable (MY GOD YOU ARE MAGNIFICANT)

Will post more later


----------



## Petes12 (May 21, 2012)

When you think back to how much people didn't like Reed post-civil war, it really is impressive how much hickman turned that around.


----------



## Id (May 22, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> *AvX*: Holy fucking shit, worst fucking thing I've read. It is as fucking bad as ultimates 3 and low-ebb level. In my mind, Aaron and Hickman did not actually involve themselves in this fucking piece of shit and had LMDs posing for them. I'd want another Fear Itself or Secret Invasion over how fucking braindead stupid this whole thing is. THERE IS NOTHING POSITIVE FROM THIS SHIT IN ANYWAY AND IF YOU DISAGREE THEN YOU ARE A POOZER FAGET.
> 
> I'm serious, I cannot think of anything I've read that left me so illogically raped. EVERYTHING in the fucking piece of shit makes me go "WHY!?!?!? HOW IS THAT LOGICAL?!?!? THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!!!!!"


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 22, 2012)

*X-Force*/*Venom*: Remender is growing on me. I still dislike his tendency to pull some "wtf" things out of his arse all the time (we've been over this before, the moments when he writes like Aaron but in a completely serious tone) however those books don't have too many of those now (Circle of Four does not exist). In short, Remender needs to keep writing Fantomax and I'm good with X-Force
*New/Secret/ Normal Avengers*: Hahahaha
*Spider-Man*: Overall I'm positive to ASM however I greatly dislike that they're expanding what Peter is doing with his recent events, Spider-Island and End of the Earths. Both are events that are beyond the normal scope of what Pete does, I want more Gauntlets and Grim Hunts (not saying Grim Hunt was that great but it was the scope of what Spidey does), not events that scale the world. Also Pete has added Silver Sable to his harem. 

And Kangaroo was freaking hilarious in the EotE mini. Being Australian myself, seeing the Foster's in his hand and the way he talked was just pure glorious. 
*Scarlet Spider*: Generic anti-hero story but it's likeable. The way I enjoy it is because it's a city that isn't New York and simply seeing the contrast between Nice Guy Peter and Middle Finger Kaine. It's a bit forced and predictable though still good because Peter's morality has been one of his major driving points and to see a more violent method is pretty cool.


----------



## Banhammer (May 22, 2012)

I pray I will grow to one day meet old man omglazerpeewpew


----------



## pussyking (May 22, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> I actually think it was okay without the mask. Dodson's rendition was pretty awesome.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...



thankls a lot i'll definitely check out uncanny x-men, daredevil and punisher. i don't know about fantastic four but it sounds like the writer is pretty good from what i've read from peoples opinions.


----------



## Kanali (May 22, 2012)

*X-Factor*: Read this, read all of it. I don't think anyone but Peter David could take a bunch of C-list heroes and a one time plot device (Layla Miller) and turn it into gold. Its got great character development, great stories and mind blowing plot twists. Its the greatest comic I've ever read.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 22, 2012)

pussyking said:


> thankls a lot i'll definitely check out uncanny x-men, daredevil and punisher. i don't know about fantastic four but it sounds like the writer is pretty good from what i've read from peoples opinions.



You going to check out Immortal Iron Fist? Because you really really should. Seriously, I'm envious of anyone who hasn't read that comic because they get to experience it for the first time.


----------



## Bergelmir (May 22, 2012)

pussyking said:


> thankls a lot i'll definitely check out uncanny x-men, daredevil and punisher. i don't know about fantastic four but it sounds like the writer is pretty good from what i've read from peoples opinions.



Glad I could help. Really though, best thing you could do is browse around in a comic shop and see what interests you.


----------



## shit (May 22, 2012)

so what does everyone think of bunn, since he's taking over venom, wolverine, and probably other stuff I can't remember

I'm a bit apprehensive on wasting my money on him


----------



## Bergelmir (May 22, 2012)

All I've read of Bunn is The Sixth Gun. And that is a superb Fantasy-Western series.

So I'm looking forward to seeing more of his stuff.


----------



## shit (May 22, 2012)

I would be too if he wasn't taking over for like all the great marvel writers

put him on deadpool and put a bullet in way


----------



## Bergelmir (May 22, 2012)

What else is he doing? I assume he's coming on Wolverine after Loeb, so no complaint there. I will miss Remender on Venom, though.


----------



## shit (May 22, 2012)

loeb on wolverine??????

no he's taking over for aaron on wolverine


----------



## Bergelmir (May 22, 2012)

Isn't Loeb supposed to have some shitty arc on how Sabertooth came back to life? Or did I just hallucinate that?


----------



## shit (May 22, 2012)

I haven't heard that, and if it's true then that's terrible news 

but bunn wrote the last issue of wolverine and aaron wrote the ish before that so


----------



## Bergelmir (May 22, 2012)

Oh, he's writing the current Rot arc? I'm really liking that. Its pretty fun.

Hummmm, I did a google search and apparently Loeb is coming on from issue 310: Edgar Wright Talks 'Ant-Man' Progress And More In New Podcast

I really hope Bunn comes back after Loeb is done.


----------



## Death Certificate (May 22, 2012)

From Tom Brevoort's Formspring account:
Edgar Wright Talks 'Ant-Man' Progress And More In New Podcast


----------



## Petes12 (May 22, 2012)

why is someone talking about odin vs phoenix


----------



## Banhammer (May 22, 2012)

Because of how Odin's echantment allows for Thor to absorb phoenix force energy now

You know

Just because

What do we feel about Tom Bevreet's answers. Depending on wether or not he's serious I may have to hate him now


----------



## Death Certificate (May 22, 2012)

Q&A for AvsX


----------



## Banhammer (May 22, 2012)

> When was the last time Longshot was a big player in X-MEN? I honestly can't recall



It's oficial

I hate tom


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 22, 2012)

Death Certificate said:


> From Tom Brevoort's Formspring account:



Lemme guess: Comic Vine caring about stuff more than they should.

*Google*

Yep.



Petes12 said:


> why is someone talking about odin vs phoenix



People pester Brevoort all the time about who can lift Mjolnir (he wants to keep that list as short as possible to keep the enchantment special), he said Jean couldn't, and it went from there to Odin's power versus the Phoenix.



Banhammer said:


> What do we feel about Tom Bevreet's answers. Depending on wether or not he's serious I may have to hate him now



He can go from earnest to tongue in cheek, and I can only imagine the pus of the fan questions he doesn't publicly answer so can't really blame him, or for having opinions.


----------



## Banhammer (May 22, 2012)

TomBrevoort 16 May
How can you say Greg Land is such a sales draw when the issues penciled by him sells as much as the issues penciled by other rotating artists (Dodson, Pacheco, etc)? I really don't think he's such a sales draw. Unc X-Men will sell the same no matter what.
smile



Dodson and Pacheco are sales draws as well.


----------



## Banhammer (May 22, 2012)

funny how no one is going after franklin richards though x)


----------



## creative (May 22, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Isn't Loeb supposed to have some shitty arc on how Sabertooth came back to life? Or did I just hallucinate that?




That's on the June/July solicits. Damnit leob. 

Christ is deadpool still serious about leaving x-force?


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 22, 2012)

a creative color said:


> That's on the June/July solicits. Damnit leob.
> 
> Christ is deadpool still serious about leaving x-force?



Of course Loeb is handling that nonsense. god knows this book will somehow feature Graydon as well so Loeb do the daddy issues all over again


----------



## Banhammer (May 22, 2012)

So we have an explanation for editorial be shitting all over endsong

Fake jean grey


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 22, 2012)

Death Certificate said:


> From Tom Brevoort's Formspring account:
> Edgar Wright Talks 'Ant-Man' Progress And More In New Podcast



Holy shit, there are not enough hands in the universe for the amount of facepalms he made me want to do.

It's concrete proof that breevort has been reading Marvel comics shorter than................nearly everyone


----------



## Petes12 (May 22, 2012)

The Bite of the She-Wolf said:


> People pester Brevoort all the time about who can lift Mjolnir (he wants to keep that list as short as possible to keep the enchantment special), he said Jean couldn't, and it went from there to Odin's power versus the Phoenix.



that is a retarded discussion.


----------



## Petes12 (May 22, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Holy shit, there are not enough hands in the universe for the amount of facepalms he made me want to do.
> 
> It's concrete proof that breevort has been reading Marvel comics shorter than................nearly everyone



longer than me :|

guys power levels fluctuate this is not news. especially with characters like odin, who btw went toe to toe with galactus recently. and you can call bs all you want but that's just as canon as whatever happened in the past if not moreso. 

I do see brevoort subscribes to the 'fights aren't math with power levels' thinking, which has my approval


----------



## Petes12 (May 22, 2012)

like how thanos is super powerful but still loses every single fight he gets into


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 22, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> like how thanos is super powerful but still loses every single fight he gets into



That's because Thanos actually doesn't want to win. his goal is not victory but to gain Death's favor.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 22, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> longer than me :|
> 
> guys power levels fluctuate this is not news. especially with characters like odin, who btw went toe to toe with galactus recently. and you can call bs all you want but that's just as canon as whatever happened in the past if not moreso.
> 
> I do see brevoort subscribes to the 'fights aren't math with power levels' thinking, which has my approval



I'm more than willing to accept bullshit in comics, I've been doing that for many a years now. My beef is when they attempt to justify it and allow completely blatant 

The story is what mainly distates how events and characters are supposed to proceed however when they twist those characters simply to suit the story then it becomes stupid.


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

the point of power levels is not out of some sort of wrestling fanboyism or nerd dogma.
Is about context of the story these giants have been a part of and how it undermines their accomplishments when you decide to make them out a smaller thing than they are

If Odin is a galactus level being, then fear itself was utterly retarded because he could have just sundered the earth the picosecond the serpent was out

It's important to have the skyfathers be beneath cubes who are beneath abstracts because this teaches there's humility for everyone, even to someone such as Odin


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

If galactus could take out planets instantly I think things would have gone differently in his early appearances





Banhammer said:


> It's important to have the skyfathers be beneath cubes who are beneath abstracts because this teaches there's humility for everyone, even to someone such as Odin


lol


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 23, 2012)

*lol*


----------



## sanx021 (May 23, 2012)

blonde non jean more like female  )


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 23, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> If galactus could take out planets instantly I think things would have gone differently in his early appearances
> lol



I agree that power levels or whatever should be flexible, but at the same time you should never have stuff like BP armbarring Silver Surfer or Spiderman vs. Firelord.

Ban's right though that there's a reason why certain characters are more powerful than other characters, and that that shouldn't just be ignored just because it's inconvenient for the story being told. 

In the case of the Phoenix, one of it's defining attributes is that it's the absolute force of death and rebirth. That shouldn't be changed just because it's inconvenient for the writers of AvX.


----------



## Parallax (May 23, 2012)

WW is right on this one.  Power levels are dumb but at the same time changing things like that for the sake of convenience is just bad writing.  If it doesn't work then why even do it in the first place do something else.


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

Well yes obviously that is a pretty extreme case with silver surfer and black panther. Or batman tackling darkseid in JLU, that stuff is like, stop wanking off to these characters please.

But 'which cosmic god way more powerful than any of the superheroes is more powerful than the other' is just kinda dumb. What's the problem with odin being near galactus levels? Except that fans also like to wank to galactus's almighty purple hat


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 23, 2012)

I recall Galactus and his purple hat to be quite pimp



sanx021 said:


> blonde non jean more like female )



lmao

oh btw, link needs fixing


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> If galactus could take out planets instantly I think things would have gone differently in his early appearances
> lol



Not really, because the reason why galactus doesn't just wipe the earth is because he needs it for sustenance, and it just costs too much of a bugger to actually go through with it, than to just go eat something else

That's the moral of galactus. You survive him, you don't win.
It's the reason why you shit your pants when Franklin decides to call upon him.


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

mm ok its not enough that he can devour an entire planet in x hours, he also needs to be able to wipe it out in a second if he so feels like it.

in general i am not in favor of DBZ power levels


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 23, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> Well yes obviously that is a pretty extreme case with silver surfer and black panther. Or batman tackling darkseid in JLU, that stuff is like, stop wanking off to these characters please.
> 
> But 'which cosmic god way more powerful than any of the superheroes is more powerful than the other' is just kinda dumb. What's the problem with odin being near galactus levels? Except that fans also like to wank to galactus's almighty purple hat



The problem is that while Galactus is always in flux due to his power being dependent on how hungry he is (In fact Odin was probably only able to do so well aginst the Big Guy last year because Galactus had fought not only in the Chaos War but the Thanos Imperative only shortly beforehand)...other Abstracts aren't like that. there's at least two or three more tiers to go through to even be on par with even the weakest abstracts. 

The Phoenix is something Odin shouldn't even be able to contend with, just like he shouldn't be able to to contend with Death, Eternity or the host of  other abstracts that isn't Galactus . to just throw out the cosmic hierarchy because the writers want Thor and the avengers to be able to beat on a Abstract force of nature is lazy and terrible writing


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

> In Chaos War, galactus blasts a Mikaboshi powered Zeus square in the face, to which he proclaims astonishment as "no mere skyfather can withstand the power of galactus" Now will you admit a mistake?
> smile





> I'm sorry, but as I've said before, especially at that level, these circumstances aren't transitive.




Buhahahaha. Got you.


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> The problem is that while Galactus is always in flux due to his power being dependent on how hungry he is (In fact Odin was probably only able to do so well aginst the Big Guy last year because Galactus had fought not only in the Chaos War but the Thanos Imperative only shortly beforehand)...other Abstracts aren't like that. there's at least two or three more tiers to go through to even be on par with even the weakest abstracts.
> 
> The Phoenix is something Odin shouldn't even be able to contend with, just like he shouldn't be able to to contend with Death, Eternity or the host of  other abstracts that isn't Galactus . to just throw out the cosmic hierarchy because the writers want Thor and the avengers to be able to beat on a Abstract force of nature is lazy and terrible writing


I'm afraid I find the whole concept of the phoenix as an abstract force retarded, along with the big face in the sky that talks to hank pym and all that other nonsense. 

and odin is kind of powerful anyway


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 23, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I'm afraid I find the whole concept of the phoenix as an abstract force retarded, along with the big face in the sky that talks to hank pym and all that other nonsense.
> 
> and odin is kind of powerful anyway



Why what's retarded about an abstract force of death and rebirth? it's no different than the others.

Yes he's a high ranking Skyfather (The most powerful in fact) but that's still leagues below a guiding force of the universe.

what your essentially saying is that because Odin is crazy powerful he should have no problem tossing around something that's supposed to make him shit his pants in fear.

are you telling me you think he should be able to take on things like The Living Tribunel as well. a being that makes even an abtsract look like a child in comparison


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

I'm saying the whole concept of 'abstract forces' is terrible (and so is the living tribunal)

In my mind the phoenix is a big nasty cosmic bird thing that does the shit it does, but it literally representing rebirth throughout the universe is kind of really lame.

this is nonsense i expect from dan slott that i just have to grit my teeth through


----------



## Parallax (May 23, 2012)

there's nothing terrible about abstract forces :|

Petes confirmed that he doesn't know what a Phoenix is


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I'm afraid I find the whole concept of the phoenix as an abstract force retarded, along with the big face in the sky that talks to hank pym and all that other nonsense.


Eh


> and odin is kind of powerful anyway



but not without limit. Hell, this isn't even about odin, it's about odin's enchantment I think.

Anyway

It matters because it's the humility of Odin. 
It's the thing that forces him not to just ALLFATHER his problems away, ,and it's the thing that allows for thor not to be able to just ALLFATHER all his problems away

Odin used to be a trickster god, like Loki. He's the ultimate marvel father figure, (after maybe uncle ben)
When I see him beat galactus at something, I want it to be because he was cosmically smart, not because what the flavor of the day writer decided what size odin's god cock should be


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

It's like having the flash letting whatever his lois lane's name is die at the end of the Dark Knight


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 23, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I'm saying the whole concept of 'abstract forces' is terrible (and so is the living tribunal)
> 
> In my mind the phoenix is a big nasty cosmic bird thing that does the shit it does, but it literally representing rebirth throughout the universe is kind of really lame.
> 
> this is nonsense i expect from dan slott that i just have to grit my teeth through



So I take it you've never read any of the myths or folklore that The Phoenix was pulled from...because that what a Phoenix represents in folklore. it dies and is thus reborn from what it's own ashes. Death and rebirth. the abstract in the comics just takes that to cosmic levels.


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

It's like, if Odin has glactus's powers, then the fraction's world-eaters arc that forced his ressurection is that much more retarded, and I'm retarded for going along with it


----------



## Parallax (May 23, 2012)

Petes mad that the literal physical representation of death and rebirth when put on the cosmic universal scale is the abstract manifestation of death and rebirth


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

lol i know what a phoenix is in mythology guys

and it wasn't the size of the moon or more powerful than people's pagan gods btw


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> It's like, if Odin has glactus's powers, then the fraction's world-eaters arc that forced his ressurection is that much more retarded, and I'm retarded for going along with it



i don't think i have nearly as high an opinion of galactus as you guys do


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

MAD SPACE GODS


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

> It's not a question of continuity, though. Put another way: The Mets can beat the Twins, the Twins can then beat the Reds, and then the Reds can beat the Mets. Happens all the time.
> 
> Also, the Twins can play the Mets ten times, and get ten different results, not just wins or losses but differences in the score, and when those runs were scored, etc.





Seriously?


----------



## Parallax (May 23, 2012)

whoa hold on Baseball is completely different

first of all pitching rotation matters not to mention are any players injured, who has the momentum etc etc

not the same thing

leave sports out of this :|


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

Ewoks vs the Empire style


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

Parallax said:


> whoa hold on Baseball is completely different
> 
> first of all pitching rotation matters not to mention are any players injured, who has the momentum etc etc
> 
> ...



This is what Tom B. told me when I asked him about matters of continuity


----------



## Parallax (May 23, 2012)

Basketball or football would probably work better

probably but even then home court advantage and injuries matter greatly


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

I don't understand your problem with his analogy banhammer.

it's not a perfect one i guess if you're parallax and you need to break down exactly how baseball works even though no one cares about baseball anymore 

but in reality a fight between the same 2 people isn't going to necessarily end the same way every time. that's what i meant myself when i said battles aren't power level math.

it's pretty annoying that this is the attitude in comics actually, it never seems to be about writing or drawing any particularly clever or interesting matchups. it's just who's got the biggest space dick


----------



## Parallax (May 23, 2012)

I actually find Baseball very boring but I still know how it works :|


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 23, 2012)

The problem with the sports analogy is that there is a lot of things that come into play. Strategy, tactics, injuries, weather, location, etc.

But with all these abstracts and what not, there's not really any X factors are there? So many of them are defined by absolutes or whatever.

At least Galactus has his hunger, but the rest it's just "This is character X, they are this powerful" and that's it.


----------



## Banhammer (May 23, 2012)

maybe I'm in the wrong here, its not like art isn't open for interpretation, but I honestly think odin is to galactus the same way pappa smurf is to skynet


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 23, 2012)

I think a better term than "power level" for you guys to use is "hierarchy".


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 23, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> The problem is that while Galactus is always in flux due to his power being dependent on how hungry he is (In fact Odin was probably only able to do so well aginst the Big Guy last year because Galactus had fought not only in the Chaos War but the Thanos Imperative only shortly beforehand)...other Abstracts aren't like that. there's at least two or three more tiers to go through to even be on par with even the weakest abstracts.
> 
> The Phoenix is something Odin shouldn't even be able to contend with, just like he shouldn't be able to to contend with Death, Eternity or the host of  other abstracts that isn't Galactus . to just throw out the cosmic hierarchy because the writers want Thor and the avengers to be able to beat on a Abstract force of nature is lazy and terrible writing



Less to do with that and more to do with Fraction should not be allowed on any books other than X-Men, Iron Fist or Iron-Man

Just like how Bendis should never be allowed to touch anything other than street-level books


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 23, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Less to do with that and more to do with Fraction should not be allowed on any books other than X-Men, Iron Fist or Iron-Man
> 
> Just like how Bendis should never be allowed to touch anything other than street-level books



Meh, New Avengers was decent/good up till secret invasion and good/great up till siege. Of course it dived after that. But I agree that Fraction was terrible for Thor, looking forward to seeing him do Hawkeye though.


----------



## shit (May 23, 2012)

I like fraction's defenders


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 23, 2012)

Pre-Heroic Age New Avengers was pretty solid. Currently it's idiotic, let's just pull a bunch of names out of a hat and they're now an Avenger.

I cannot understand how Bendis still has the audacity of saying being an Avenger is special when he's making everyone one


----------



## creative (May 23, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Less to do with that and more to do with Fraction should not be allowed on any books other than X-Men, Iron Fist or Iron-Man
> 
> Just like how Bendis should never be allowed to touch anything other than street-level books



Ehh...I didn't really enjoy bendis with moon Knight though. I don't read adjectiveless avengers much but I did enjoy his take on red hulk in the infinity gauntlet arc.

Maybe bendis should write heroes for hire?


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 23, 2012)

aubro said:


> I like fraction's defenders


Me too, although him offing the majority of the immortal weapons was a dick move....unless he does a new iron fist series that involves their successors 	:33 

Actually, since it was such a great series, is there anybody you'd want to do Iron Fist besides Fraction and more importantly Aja?


omg laser pew pew! said:


> Pre-Heroic Age New Avengers was pretty solid. Currently it's idiotic, let's just pull a bunch of names out of a hat and they're now an Avenger.
> 
> I cannot understand how Bendis still has the audacity of saying being an Avenger is special when he's making everyone one


Actually, the only characters that he avengered that I wish hadn't been are wolverine, red hulk, and protector. I think Spidey's earned it, and the rest are just awesome. Well, Mockingbird has always been me to me.


a creative color said:


> Maybe bendis should write heroes for hire?


Please no.


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Pre-Heroic Age New Avengers was pretty solid. Currently it's idiotic, let's just pull a bunch of names out of a hat and they're now an Avenger.


 it seems like hes trying to make it more like the older books with the focus on family drama and the clubhouse mansion and stuff. so pretty boring. 



> I cannot understand how Bendis still has the audacity of saying being an Avenger is special when he's making everyone one



does he say that?


----------



## shit (May 23, 2012)

wolverine is pretty much everything the avengers used to be against


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

pfft back when they were squares! 

actually wouldnt be surprised if wolverine were kicked off the team after avx


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 23, 2012)

we'll see after act 2 of AvX


----------



## Rukia (May 23, 2012)

I think all of these teams are too crowded.  4-5 should be the max.


----------



## creative (May 23, 2012)

shit said:


> wolverine is pretty much everything the avengers used to be against



I'm still waiting on the ever so inevitable betrayal of beast when he rats on wolverine and his kill-crew.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 23, 2012)

a creative color said:


> Ehh...I didn't really enjoy bendis with moon Knight though. I don't read adjectiveless avengers much but I did enjoy his take on red hulk in the infinity gauntlet arc.
> 
> Maybe bendis should write heroes for hire?



I'll give him a pass on Moon Knight because of his Daredevil



Whip Whirlwind said:


> Actually, the only characters that he avengered that I wish hadn't been are wolverine, red hulk, and protector. I think Spidey's earned it, and the rest are just awesome. Well, Mockingbird has always been me to me.



Earned what? What is there to earn when nearly every good guy is an Avenger on one team or another. Bendis KILLED the meaning in being an Avenger with his cheap mass-market flooding. He's destroyed the name so much that NOT being an Avenger is the new black

The issue where Daredebil became an Avenger? I nearly vomited at the dialogue. "Are Avengers Daredevil material?". Where does he get off writing tripe like that?


----------



## Petes12 (May 23, 2012)

daredevil's the only one i don't think works at all.

when vision is a mainstay of the team i think the bar is pretty fucking low


----------



## Es (May 23, 2012)

Don't you just not like him?


----------



## shit (May 23, 2012)

doesn't everyone?


----------



## Es (May 23, 2012)

Feh I thought he was kinda cool under Kurt Busiek


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 23, 2012)

*Jubilee is so kawaii*


----------



## Es (May 23, 2012)

Wut                    .


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 23, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Earned what? What is there to earn when nearly every good guy is an Avenger on one team or another. Bendis KILLED the meaning in being an Avenger with his cheap mass-market flooding. He's destroyed the name so much that NOT being an Avenger is the new black



By earned I guess I just mean that I consider Spidey one of "earth's mightiest heroes" and between his powers, brains, and experience it makes sense for him to join. Him being on 2 teams was a bit much though.

And weren't all of Bendis' pre heroic age books necessary at the time? I mean New and Mighty made sense, as did New and Dark. It's not bendis' fault that Mighty (now as academy) and Dark didn't end when he left.

I think Avengers Assemble is pointless, and I don't like Academy (But can see why others would) but I'm totally okay with New and Secret sticking around, in addition to adjectiveless.

As long as the characters and stories are good I'm okay with there being less prestige around being an "Avenger" or whatever.



> The issue where Daredevil became an Avenger? I nearly vomited at the dialogue. "Are Avengers Daredevil material?". Where does he get off writing tripe like that?



Again, new avengers post heroic age. No denying that's sucked majorly.


----------



## shit (May 23, 2012)

avenger is just another name for superhero

even in initiative, no name loser characters were bragging that they were former avengers for like a week
the name already got muddied enough that it didn't mean anything back then

the real problem is that new avengers, avengers, and avengers assemble are all written by the same person and all suck out loud
two of them are basically the same fucking book
just make one avengers title and put it out twice a month like ASM

and call secret avengers something else, cuz it honestly doesn't deserve the spill over ridicule that the other avengers titles so richly deserve


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 23, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _avengers' initiative_


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 23, 2012)

aubro said:


> avenger is just another name for superhero
> 
> even in initiative, no name loser characters were bragging that they were former avengers for like a week
> the name already got muddied enough that it didn't mean anything back then
> ...



Secret Avengers was also fucking stupid when it started 

An Avengers(lol) team that is meant to deal in *espionage* and *backdaggery*
Lead by the *public* leader of *SHIELD*, a* global *protection force 
Also a former *Captain America*, a *public figurehead* for the US 
*Doesn't wear a mask*

I'M SORRY BUT MY MIND IS TOO LOGICAL TO SEE HOW ON EARTH THAT MAKES SENSE


----------



## Petes12 (May 24, 2012)

Yes Brubaker's run was shit

but then Ellis and Remender wrote stuff


----------



## creative (May 24, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Secret Avengers was also fucking stupid when it started
> 
> An Avengers(lol) team that is meant to deal in *espionage* and *backdaggery*
> Lead by the *public* leader of *SHIELD*, a* global *protection force
> ...




To Brubarker's credit, despite missing the element of espionage, his run still felt very much like the high-times of a G.I.JOE episode. in it's time it was still arguably one of the better avenger books. also Mike Deodato's pencils went hand in hand with my musclewoman fetish.




			
				Petes12 said:
			
		

> but then Ellis and Remender wrote stuff


agreed. Ellis made every character that wasn't captain america enjoyable and Remender added venom along with the stealth element.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 24, 2012)

Ellis makes everything enjoyable. Haven't read anything from him under Marvel that I didn't enjoy reading.


----------



## creative (May 24, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Ellis makes everything enjoyable. Haven't read anything from him under Marvel that I didn't enjoy reading.



the only thing from him that made me slightly underwhelmed was his astonishing x-men limited series about ghost boxes. not enough snarky beast.I swear sometimes Mccoy is Ellis' invoice avatar.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 24, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> it seems like hes trying to make it more like the older books with the focus on family drama and the clubhouse mansion and stuff. so pretty boring.
> 
> does he say that?



Look at how many issues over the books where they focus on "What makes someone worthy of being an Avenger?". Obvious issues are the Fear Itself Red Hulk vs Thing Avengers issue and the aforementioned Daredevil induction into New Avengers. 

Not to mention he keeps dropping dialogue like "He/She/I was/am/is an Avenger!". If he can make jokes about Wolverine being on every team then Marvel should make jokes about everyone being an Avenger


----------



## tari101190 (May 24, 2012)

Is Deadpool a normal human now, with no scars and no powers?


----------



## shit (May 24, 2012)

pay no attention to danny way plz


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 24, 2012)

Deadpool


----------



## Agent (May 24, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> Is Deadpool a normal human now, with no scars and no powers?



He lost his healing factor is what I got from Xforce.

With Psylocke and Fantomex leaving the team, I've lost all interest for that book


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 24, 2012)

I bet they wont leave

but then again, I wont mind having Fantomex on the X-Men

how about this for random X-Force team up

Cipher, Gambit, Madison Jeffries, Rogue, Deadpool, Domino and Shadowcat

and maybe Cyclops or Cable as lead since there should be a strategist


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 24, 2012)

scratch that, a telepath is just something necessary

Cable cant use much cuz of technorganic

I guess psylocke or emma, I dont see rachel killing people atm




or how about this for team up

Magneto, Iceman, Xavier, Storm, Danger and Rachel Summers


----------



## Agent (May 24, 2012)

I thought you were being serious but... Shadowcat?!


----------



## Agent (May 24, 2012)

Magneto isn't killing right now but I wouldn't really mind if he went back.

Storm was against the idea of Xforce I doubt she'll have any part in it. I don't think characters that are core X-men like Iceman and Xavier should take part in Xforce. It works with Wolverine since he's been doing things like this all his life, but for others it would take away everything that they used to be and believe in.


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 24, 2012)

true true

and hey, Shadowcat can shortcircuit stuff and can be good at moving to places

and yeah magneto has no reason to be villain, I mean, mutant supremacy 

and yeah, Storm and the core x-men prolly wont join in

how about this

Emma Frost, Sebastian Shaw, Majik, Madison Jeffries, and Domino

and maybe Quicksilver but he's avenger

edit: imma add cyclops there if he's willing to kill, he's a good strategist and im liking his stuff with Emma alot

not to mention, maybe some tension with Sebastian


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 24, 2012)

hey guys, lets try and make up random combinations for x-force, just for fun


----------



## Mael (May 24, 2012)

Have you ever imagined Venom actually friendly?

Well wait no longer.  Introducing, Venom on Prozac.

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Banhammer (May 24, 2012)

Venom is friendly. In his own way.
Biting people's arms off is his way to say hello


----------



## Mael (May 24, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Venom is friendly. In his own way.
> Biting people's arms off is his way to say hello



Symbiotes are SYMpathetic to the needs of heroes.


----------



## Banhammer (May 24, 2012)

I remember reading somewhere that the reason why the symbionte constantly lashes out is because he was abruptly taken out of his home planet to a strange new envyroment which the only thing he knows is peter because he bonded with him in what the twisted symbionte equivalent of love is meant to be


----------



## Mael (May 24, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I remember reading somewhere that the reason why the symbionte constantly lashes out is because he was abruptly taken out of his home planet to a strange new envyroment which the only thing he knows is peter because he bonded with him in what the twisted symbionte equivalent of love is meant to be



Which is interesting because if anything Eddie Brock has been the only one to ever really contain and bond with the symbiote, Gargan and the others notwithstanding.  Eddie seems to actually get the thing to not lash out so much but instead fuel its pleasures along with Eddie's.

Venom is awesome...aesthetically and everything else.


----------



## creative (May 24, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I remember reading somewhere that the reason why the symbionte constantly lashes out is because he was abruptly taken out of his home planet to a strange new envyroment which the only thing he knows is peter because he bonded with him in what the twisted symbionte equivalent of love is meant to be



I just came back from that thread from 420 chan.


----------



## Kanali (May 24, 2012)

Yeah Venom is unquestionably awesome  

What I hate the most about the current Venom run is that the symbiote seems to have been marginalized lately, now that its essentially lobotomized. A lot of Venoms interestingness comes from the interaction between the host and the symbiote, especially if Venom is trying to be a good guy.


----------



## Banhammer (May 24, 2012)

No, I like this venom for now.
Once flash gains enough momentum, he can grab one of the other sybiontes and strie out on a series of his own while the symbionte goes back to apeshit evil, but right now, they work well with each other

Besides, there is little need for him right now


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 24, 2012)

Venom's my fave in spiderman


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 24, 2012)

I kind of like how the symbiote seems to be more subtle this time around, but yeah Flash as Venom is the most that I've ever liked the character.


----------



## Glued (May 24, 2012)

As a 10 year old, Venom gave me nightmares. No comic villain ever gave me nightmares before.


----------



## Banhammer (May 24, 2012)

the joker did. So did mr freeze. Also, Daleks


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 24, 2012)

Michael Lucky said:


> scratch that, a telepath is just something necessary
> 
> Cable cant use much cuz of technorganic
> 
> ...



Hope absorbed and burned out the technoorganic virus from Cable, he's clean now


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 24, 2012)

oh yeah, haxxed cable is back


----------



## Banhammer (May 24, 2012)

isn't that bad for him?


----------



## Bergelmir (May 24, 2012)

Michael Lucky said:


> oh yeah, haxxed cable is back


Probably not. The reason Cable has only super weak powers is because he lobotomized himself. So even with the TO virus expunged, he should still just be a dude with guns and gadgets.

Also, when was he resurrected? Last I remember of him is dying during Second Coming.


----------



## shit (May 24, 2012)

loeb happened


----------



## Bergelmir (May 24, 2012)

Oh. Greaaat.

In that case, I take back what I said about Cable not having powers. If Loeb is in charge of the character, there's no way he's paying attention to any of Cable & Deadpool.


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 24, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Oh. Greaaat.
> 
> In that case, I take back what I said about Cable not having powers. If Loeb is in charge of the character, there's no way he's paying attention to any of Cable & Deadpool.



Exactly.

If Loeb was unwilling to know that Radioactive Man isn't a villain anymore but uses him anyway in his shitty mini...there's no way he's paying attention to something made years ago that he didn't write.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 24, 2012)

"if low-ebb" is all that needs to be said


----------



## Mael (May 25, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> As a 10 year old, Venom gave me nightmares. No comic villain ever gave me nightmares before.



With a lovely "hello" smile like this...

*Spoiler*: __ 








...how could he not give you lovely dreams?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 25, 2012)

''*The Marvel Universe has always reflected the world outside your window*, so we strive to make sure our characters, relationships and stories are grounded in that reality,'' said Marvel Comics editor-in-chief Axel Alonso

This axel guy must be giving himself a pat on the back there


----------



## Banhammer (May 25, 2012)

Well they do have a horrid history with the gays. I say let em do it. What if it's for publicity stunts?
Uncanny has been striving really hard not to suck, and they even managed it a couple of times recently, but if the best they can do is tell an uplifting story to some poor gay kid who feels like the world hates and fears him, then you go right ahead and you marry the shit out of northstar.
Besides
At least it's not a fucking Coming Out story.


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 25, 2012)

inb4 Cable comes out of the closet


----------



## Banhammer (May 25, 2012)

remember gay shatterstar? That was fun


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 25, 2012)

well Rictor seems to be having fun alright


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (May 25, 2012)

Hey guys, here's a convo to start. Why are some writers so good on some books but so fucking shit and terrible on others? Some prime examples are Fraction and DnA?

They either write great enjoyable books (Iron Man, Iron Fist, Nova) or ones that make me want to vomit at how shallow they are on others (Every event)


----------



## Petes12 (May 25, 2012)

I think having real passion for a book helps a lot. Even though its all bendis, the difference between USM and his avengers is staggering. I don't think he cares about much with the avengers other than writing his osborn stuff and writing luke cage and jessica jones. 

And events I imagine are like trying to write with your editor ripping out and devouring your soul while you navigate a minefield of tie in continuity


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 25, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I think having real passion for a book helps a lot. Even though its all bendis, the difference between USM and his avengers is staggering. I don't think he cares about much with the avengers other than writing his osborn stuff and writing luke cage and jessica jones.
> 
> And events I imagine are like trying to write with your editor ripping out and devouring your soul while you navigate a minefield of tie in continuity



Yeah, I feel like events require both the obvious writing skill of juggling lots of characters and events, but a certain level of either "star power" (see: Morrison, Bendis, Johns, etc.) or negotiation skills.

And it makes sense that a lot of writers wouldn't be good at negotiating to what degree their work is going to be screwed with.


----------



## creative (May 25, 2012)

adding on to whip's post there's a whole lot less editorial nonsense to put up with when writers make write for a character as an event.


----------



## Banhammer (May 25, 2012)

I was gonna point out for example uncanny as oposed to AvsX


----------



## creative (May 25, 2012)




----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 25, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> TomBrevoort 16 May
> How can you say Greg Land is such a sales draw when the issues penciled by him sells as much as the issues penciled by other rotating artists (Dodson, Pacheco, etc)? I really don't think he's such a sales draw. Unc X-Men will sell the same no matter what.
> smile
> 
> ...



I like Dodson, except for the occasional detail like male kawaii eyes.

Pacheco has some veteran cred by now.



Banhammer said:


> funny how no one is going after franklin richards though x)



The room can only squeeze so many elephants through the doorway.



aubro said:


> avenger is just another name for superhero
> 
> even in initiative, no name loser characters were bragging that they were former avengers for like a week
> the name already got muddied enough that it didn't mean anything back then



What about this roster?



Half the Fantastic Four with matching costumes, Captain America with whatever costume, Thor, and The Forgotten One (!).


----------



## shit (May 25, 2012)

You had me until forgotten one (!).


----------



## Banhammer (May 25, 2012)

who the hell is the forgotten one?


----------



## creative (May 25, 2012)




----------



## Es (May 25, 2012)

The Bite of the She-Wolf said:


> Half the Fantastic Four with matching costumes, Captain America with whatever costume, Thor, and The Forgotten One (!).



Isn't the kooky Quartet an even earlier controversial roster?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 25, 2012)

Es said:


> Isn't the kooky Quartet an even earlier controversial roster?



At the time it must have been.

The carny who was pussywhipped by the Commie femme fatale into attacking Iron Man, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants twins, and Captain freaking America just a few issues after his defreezing in the Avengers title.

Most of them would have been Thunderbolts material a few decades after.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 25, 2012)

Rage God Asura said:


> What's the best Avengers comic of marvel? Just became a fan of marvel after watching the Avengers Movie.



I saw this list the other day:



Regulars, discuss.


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 25, 2012)

^ I've always wanted to read Kree/Skrull war






Rage God Asura said:


> What's the best Avengers comic of marvel? Just became a fan of marvel after watching the Avengers Movie.



just a suggestion since you liked the movie

check out Avengers Prelude: Fury's Big Week

it isnt much, but its based on what S.H.I.E.L.D.'s been doing during Thor, Hulk, Ironman and Captain America movies and how it led to the Avengers movie

thats prolly a good way to start


----------



## Banhammer (May 25, 2012)

pet avengers as a mere 16

fuck that shit


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 25, 2012)

spidey getting to 2nd base


----------



## Kanali (May 26, 2012)

Spidey you horny bastard 

As for the list, Dark Avengers is pretty fucking awesome, haven't read most of the others though.


----------



## Scarecrow Red (May 26, 2012)

The Bite of the She-Wolf said:


> I saw this list the other day:
> 
> 
> 
> Regulars, discuss.



The list just reminds me that I need to read Kurt Busiek's Avengers eventually.

And is nice to see the stuff of Roger Stern and Warren Ellis getting recognition.


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 27, 2012)

Holy shit. D-Man's not a joke anymore. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



In fact he's the new Scourge


----------



## Banhammer (May 27, 2012)

where did you pick that up from?


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 27, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> where did you pick that up from?



The latest Captain America issue. finally had time to read through my pull list.

I kinda like D-Man as a joke character though


----------



## Banhammer (May 27, 2012)

heh. Not really a game changer, but that's cool


----------



## Comic Book Guy (May 27, 2012)

Am I the only one wondering when will Brubaker end his CA run?

How many years has he been on it now. . .


----------



## Banhammer (May 27, 2012)

I kind of don't read captain america :/


----------



## Es (May 27, 2012)

The Last arc had Bravo's Hydra hitting New York with Madbombs, now in the new arc they brainwashed Gyrich and D-Man into being their pawns since Viper went into Witness protection and he was snitching on them, although there might be something more elaborate at work


----------



## LIL_M0 (May 28, 2012)

I just read X-Sanction. Much to my surprise, it wasn't terrible. In fact I kinda... liked it?!


----------



## shit (May 28, 2012)

haven't you been known for liking loeb stuff tho, mo?


----------



## LIL_M0 (May 28, 2012)

No. Not consistently.


----------



## Banhammer (May 28, 2012)

Reading about Lil Mo's taste in comic books makes me feel like I'm watching an 80's coming out of the closet movie, and I'm the bully


----------



## shit (May 28, 2012)

the bully is always the gayest one


----------



## Banhammer (May 28, 2012)

Or the one who abused by a mean gay in his past


----------



## Banhammer (May 28, 2012)

gay being a metaphor for loeb


and how much he sucks cock


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 28, 2012)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Am I the only one wondering when will Brubaker end his CA run?
> 
> How many years has he been on it now. . .



I think it's going to be soon. You can tell he's kind of getting bored. The writing is currently nothing to rave about, only reason I'm reading the current arc is Zircher.

I think in a lot of ways Cap was just a means to an end (bucky) for Brubaker.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 29, 2012)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Am I the only one wondering when will Brubaker end his CA run?
> 
> How many years has he been on it now. . .



Maybe he wants to challenge Gruenwald's Captain America run.

IIRC that went on for quite a while.


----------



## Bergelmir (May 29, 2012)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Am I the only one wondering when will Brubaker end his CA run?
> 
> How many years has he been on it now. . .





The Bite of the She-Wolf said:


> Maybe he wants to challenge Gruenwald's Captain America run.
> 
> IIRC that went on for quite a while.



Where else would they put him, though? He's got the Winter Soldier book, but Brubaker doesn't really seem a fit for most Marvel books. I can't see him on an Avengers book or an X-Men book(besides X-Factor or X-Force, but those aren't available). And he's done Daredevil, Captain America. I'd say Punsher, but Rucka has that. Maybe Scarlet Spider?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 29, 2012)

I'd say a Moon Knight book, but that's already had a chance recently so maybe not soon.


----------



## shit (May 29, 2012)

spiderman         ~


----------



## Bergelmir (May 29, 2012)

aubro said:


> spiderman         ~



You know, I remember someone saying something about wanting a serious Spider-Man run. Brubaker would be great for that.


----------



## shit (May 29, 2012)

that was me~


----------



## Petes12 (May 29, 2012)

so bleeding cool says gillen and land may move to iron man


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 29, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> so bleeding cool says gillen and *land* may move to iron man



Why marvel, why? Larocca is the perfect Iron Man artist. And while I'm sure Gillen will be good on Iron Man, I think he could be better on something else.


----------



## Petes12 (May 29, 2012)

I think he's a great fit for iron man, maybe the best writer they've got for iron man.

But I want him to stay on x-men :/


----------



## Bergelmir (May 29, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> Why marvel, why? *Larocca is the perfect Iron Man artist.* And while I'm sure Gillen will be good on Iron Man, I think he could be better on something else.



I don't know. Maybe its the coloring, but I really dislike Larocca's art on Iron Man. Gillen seems to have a good handle on how to use Land, so it aught to be interesting.

But I'd rather they leave Gillen on Uncanny X-Men.


----------



## Agent (May 29, 2012)

Larocca is good for drawing armors (which the book has plentiful) but not so much with real faces. 

Gillen could be interesting, but Land I could do without.


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 29, 2012)

Agent said:


> Larocca is good for drawing armors (which the book has plentiful) but not so much with real faces.
> 
> Gillen could be interesting, but Land I could do without.



Yeah, these are my thoughts exactly. Gillen is the best talent they have right now; you need to catch that shit and ride it, not put an artist who has mildly improved but still has a tendency to draw porn women in comics.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 29, 2012)

Agent said:


> Larocca is good for drawing armors (which the book has plentiful) but not so much with real faces.
> 
> Gillen could be interesting, but Land I could do without.



Yeah his faces are iffy, but dat armor .

And yeah Land riding Gillen's coattails is really annoying. Give gillen a legitimately good artist please.


----------



## shit (May 29, 2012)

gillen probably likes land because he's punctual


----------



## Petes12 (May 29, 2012)

Honestly Iron Man's probably a good fit for Land. I get the impression he's quite good when no one lets him draw any human faces. His juggerlossus demon mode and tabula rasa aliens are pretty good looking for example


----------



## Banhammer (May 29, 2012)

not to mention you can kind of expect porn stars to be around tony stark


----------



## Mael (May 29, 2012)

Does anyone really remember the 90s comics being THIS ungodly corny?


----------



## shit (May 29, 2012)

yes

for instance, mojoworld


----------



## Banhammer (May 29, 2012)

Mullet Superman
Rob Liefield


----------



## Es (May 29, 2012)

Mael said:


> Does anyone really remember the 90s comics being THIS ungodly corny?



Peter David dialogue in 90's Hulk disproves your point, I still get a chuckle from a few quips despite the age gap 

I can only assume his power has doubled by now...


----------



## Bergelmir (May 29, 2012)

Oh god, there was a villain called Dr Bad Vibes? Thats... thats fantastic.  What was his power? To make you feel uncomfortable?


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 29, 2012)

What's next? Professor harshmellow?

Oh my god....I so want a villain called professor harshmellow.


----------



## shit (May 29, 2012)

Mr. Feels Bad Man


----------



## Mael (May 29, 2012)

Such was the power of the 1990s comics. 

Professor Privacy Invader. 

And yes I was aware Hulk was actually erudite in speech for a time being.


----------



## Narutossss (May 29, 2012)

the fuck is going on in here...


----------



## Mael (May 29, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> the fuck is going on in here...



The absurdity of 1990s Marvel.  Did you see Hulk's hairdo?


----------



## Narutossss (May 29, 2012)

hard to believe that was one of comics most successful decade before the whole crash and burn.


----------



## Bergelmir (May 30, 2012)

Its really amazing how nutty the 90s were. I didn't think anything could surprise me after Snowflame, but 90s comics always find a way.


----------



## A. Waltz (May 30, 2012)

hi guys my knowledge of marvel is watching iron man/ironman2, thor, hulk 2008, spider man movies, and captain america oh and avengers
oh and x-men

would you recommend i read the comics?

like reading the extremis arc in iron man ?

i know iron man 3 will be about that arc in the comics


----------



## Narutossss (May 30, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Its really amazing how nutty the 90s were. I didn't think anything could surprise me after Snowflame, but 90s comics always find a way.


looooooool are you talking about the guy that uses drugs to power himself, I remember watching a linkara review on that comic, what the fuck were Marvel/DC smoking back then. Snowflame should be a villian on the Young justice cartoon....


----------



## Bergelmir (May 30, 2012)

Yeah, thats him. He had fire powers, and the strength of his powers depended on how much cocaine he was taking. Utterly bonkers and hilarious.


----------



## ReleaseTheKraken (May 30, 2012)

AznKuchikiChick said:


> hi guys my knowledge of marvel is watching iron man/ironman2, thor, hulk 2008, spider man movies, and captain america oh and avengers
> oh and x-men
> 
> would you recommend i read the comics?
> ...



I would recommend reading one of Marvel's big summer events. You get a taste of eveything.


----------



## A. Waltz (May 30, 2012)

ReleaseTheKraken said:


> I would recommend reading one of Marvel's big summer events. You get a taste of eveything.



sorry to ask but what is that? i am deeply interested


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 30, 2012)

cosmic arcs are kewl


----------



## Petes12 (May 30, 2012)

AznKuchikiChick said:


> sorry to ask but what is that? i am deeply interested



events are big stories that usually have a main series, then other ongoing series like avengers or spider-man have 'tie ins' where they tell a part of the story too. Generally not a necessary part of the story. Events usually have big effects on the marvel or dc universe.

Yes the extremis arc of Iron Man is good. Invincible Iron Man by Matt Fraction is also pretty good.


----------



## shit (May 30, 2012)

I thought the extremis arc was underwhelming

it's hyped before you read it as being so integral

but then it's just "crazy guy gets breakthrough tech, tony beats him and assimilates tech"

the paperback is only like 4 issues


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 30, 2012)

Yeah , id say for a new reader go right to fractions run. Its pretty much tailor made for people coming out of iron man 1. Other than that id say for marvel start at civil war then branch to the characters you like from there.

Oh and read immortal iron fist. Or berg will shoot you down like lightning from god.


----------



## Bergelmir (May 30, 2012)

Bendis, Brubaker, Diggle, and Waid's run on Daredevil are all fantastic as well. Its all easy to understand, self contained, and pretty fun.



Whip Whirlwind said:


> Oh and read immortal iron fist. Or berg will shoot you down like lightning from god.




But yeah, thats a superb series. Also self contained, and loads of fun.


----------



## Banhammer (May 30, 2012)

I seriously hope they won't get Uatu on the northstar wedding


----------



## Banhammer (May 30, 2012)

also, I'm reading Wolverine and The X-Men and it's really fucking hard to wrap my mind around the writer's reasoning

He keeps trying to talk hope out of trying to go to the moon as if he was kindly offering her the choice of stabbing her instead


It's like he's trying to convince her he's doing hope a favor


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 30, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I seriously hope they won't get Uatu on the northstar wedding



I hope Hercules makes a big awkward "Hey remember that time we banged!? Good times, friend." appearance.


----------



## Banhammer (May 30, 2012)

Yes, that actually would be okay


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (May 31, 2012)

Tony arrogance really pisses me of in this war.

Does anyone has a list of all Avengers vs X-men issues??


----------



## Agent (May 31, 2012)

Blue_Panter_Ninja said:


> Tony arrogance really pisses me of in this war.
> 
> Does anyone has a list of all Avengers vs X-men issues??



Tony's arrogance? What is this Civil War?


----------



## Agent (May 31, 2012)

..aside from the main event series and the vs. book. But I wouldn't bother with them. Most of them aren't any good from what I hear. From these, I've only been reading the main title and Wolverine and the X-men.


----------



## shit (May 31, 2012)

uncanny x-men is the shit, obvs

so is secret avengers

basically the only book there that is not worth buying (besides the main titles which are obvs not worth buying) is x-men legacy


----------



## shit (May 31, 2012)

sorry I had to shut down your wrong ass opinion like that, agent


----------



## Agent (May 31, 2012)

Eh, its the danger of giving an opinion. Nevertheless, the main title is a necessity if you are planning to read Marvel and not just a one time story. And, I still have hope that it will improve in Act 2 once Coipel comes along. 

Other than that not recommending Uncanny X-men is probably just a personal opinion since I like its sister book better and choose not to follow too many X-books. And, I haven't been fond of any work from Remender from the past few months.

Anyways you missed the Avengers, New Avengers, Academy and Vs. books, so the part about most of them not being any good still holds true.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 31, 2012)

Agent said:


> Eh, its the danger of giving an opinion. Nevertheless, the main title is a necessity if you are planning to read Marvel and not just a one time story. And, I still have hope that it will improve in Act 2 once Coipel comes along.
> 
> Other than that not recommending Uncanny X-men is probably just a personal opinion since I like its sister book better and choose not to follow too many X-books. And, I haven't been fond of any work from* Remender* from the past few months.
> 
> Anyways you missed the Avengers, New Avengers, Academy and Vs. books, so the part about most of them not being any good still holds true.



Uncanny X Men =! Uncanny X Force

Uncanny X Men is written be Gillen (praised be his name).


----------



## shit (May 31, 2012)

I love Academy


----------



## Bergelmir (May 31, 2012)

So I just reread The Death of Captain Marvel. God damn.   Starlin really knew how to tug those heartstrings.


----------



## Agent (May 31, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> Uncanny X Men =! Uncanny X Force
> 
> Uncanny X Men is written be Gillen (praised be his name).



I was referring to the comment about Secret Avengers. I just think Remender has no regards for what others writers have done on books before him.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 31, 2012)

Agent said:


> I was referring to the comment about Secret Avengers. I just think Remender has no regards for what others writers have done on books before him.



Ah, D'oh. But what makes you say that? Just curious.


----------



## Agent (May 31, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> Ah, D'oh. But what makes you say that? Just curious.



It was from an article I read. Basically, that he's been killing characters wherever he goes. He killed Ant-man in his 2nd issue on SA and then made a villain disguise as him. He killed Toxin, just cause. The Apocalypse turned kid ruins the chance to get a real Apocalypse villain story for quite some time and he destroyed Angel. And you know what he tried to do with Punisher. 

I think there was more stuff, but you get the gist of it. I liked Remender before and most of these characters I don't care about, but I am starting to see a pattern.


----------



## Banhammer (May 31, 2012)

I disagree.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 31, 2012)

Agent said:


> It was from an article I read. Basically, that he's been killing characters wherever he goes. He killed Ant-man in his 2nd issue on SA and then made a villain disguise as him. He killed Toxin, just cause. The Apocalypse turned kid ruins the chance to get a real Apocalypse villain story for quite some time and he destroyed Angel. And you know what he tried to do with Punisher.
> 
> I think there was more stuff, but you get the gist of it. I liked Remender before and most of these characters I don't care about, but I am starting to see a pattern.



Wait, did Eric O Grady actually die? I thought that was a fake out. Damn, that sucks.

But I don't think Genesis and Angel really count, since both could arguably be considered development as opposed to destruction.


----------



## Agent (May 31, 2012)

There's isn't much of a difference from what he did with Genesis and Angel than what he tried with Punisher.


----------



## shit (May 31, 2012)

???

it's not like he set out to kill punisher
he just set out to do something interesting with him
it sounds like you hate interesting things
your desire for another apocalypse villain story seems to confirm this


----------



## Michael Lucky (May 31, 2012)

*So manly, it made a viking god cry*


----------



## Agent (May 31, 2012)

aubro said:


> ???
> 
> it's not like he set out to kill punisher
> he just set out to do something interesting with him
> ...



I just dislike him drastically changing too many characters that they barely resemble themselves.


----------



## shit (May 31, 2012)

so you'd rather have books where no one dies and no one changes too much and everything that's happened in the past 30 years is free to happen over and over without interruption

that fucking sucks


----------



## Petes12 (May 31, 2012)

Agent said:


> It was from an article I read. Basically, that he's been killing characters wherever he goes. He killed Ant-man in his 2nd issue on SA and then made a villain disguise as him. He killed Toxin, just cause. The Apocalypse turned kid ruins the chance to get a real Apocalypse villain story for quite some time and he destroyed Angel. And you know what he tried to do with Punisher.
> 
> I think there was more stuff, but you get the gist of it. I liked Remender before and most of these characters I don't care about, but I am starting to see a pattern.



None of that is disrespecting anything that came before. Mostly he's turning into old well worn concepts into something new and significantly less terrible. case in point: toxin, apocalypse, and angel...


----------



## Banhammer (May 31, 2012)

You could argue he's doing something similar to that of Loki, but I think turning Apocalipse into clark kent is an amazing idea


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (May 31, 2012)

Agent said:


> ..aside from the main event series and the vs. book. But I wouldn't bother with them. Most of them aren't any good from what I hear. From these, I've only been reading the main title and Wolverine and the X-men.


Have to check my collections!!


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (May 31, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> You could argue he's doing something similar to that of Loki, but I think turning Apocalipse into clark kent is an amazing idea



It's similar in that it's deaging a character and making them not evil, but yeah making the ultimate mutant evil into an ersatz of the ultimate good is certainly a great idea.


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2012)

Wat.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm actually not an adventure time follower but I hear great things


----------



## Parallax (Jun 1, 2012)

It's delightful


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 1, 2012)

Not sure which I love more, Unicorn hawkeye, or lumpy Fury.

Probably lumpy Fury.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2012)

unicorn hawkeye :33


----------



## sanx021 (Jun 6, 2012)

This event is a joke Avengers vs X-men #5 proves it it's like a badly written fan fiction .

I expected better from Marvel


----------



## Kanali (Jun 6, 2012)

Yeah its getting pretty out there. What I dislike the most about it is the art though.


----------



## Es (Jun 6, 2012)

I miss Alpha Flight even more now


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

leah pack all of your bags
I only own one dress 
Then our good news are doubled!


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 6, 2012)

maaaan, I thought Xavier and Legion will actually do something 

and this shit seems cray, but Hickman writes for the rest


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

AVX was retarded I'm not sure even gillen can salvage anything

But at least they looked badass


----------



## creative (Jun 6, 2012)

goddamnit marvel. I was joking when I said everybody should be superhero/super villain/demi-god. what the actual fuck?



			
				Es said:
			
		

> http://robot6.comicbookresources.com...aglesham-says/
> 
> I miss Alpha Flight even more now



you can catch more of alpha flight in red hulk's new story arc "mayan rule". the colors are great and the hints of red hulk fighting eternals makes me festive with anticipation. best shit ever since "Hulk of Arabia"


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm still confused as shit, does captain america want to kill hope or not?
Because he keeps helping wolverine who blatantly wants to stab the little girl


----------



## sanx021 (Jun 6, 2012)

So how does this event measure up to Fear itself


----------



## creative (Jun 6, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I'm still confused as shit, does captain america want to kill hope or not?
> Because he keeps helping wolverine who blatantly wants to stab the little girl


cap wants to help hope stay separated from the phoneix. which is wildly irresponsible since the phoenix would just burn everything to get to her anyway. I was hoping this would lead to a silver age mash-up of avengers and x-men settling their shit latter and combining their forces but goddamnit.

also, am I suppose to feel sorry when wolverine explains why he wants/has to kill hope. because I don't. reading that shit in wolverine and the x-men does not help soften things either. if anything it makes me want to see more red vs iceman. I really want to see iceman beat red hulk.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 6, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I'm still confused as shit, does captain america want to kill hope or not?
> Because he keeps helping wolverine who blatantly wants to stab the little girl



*Then*

"It doesn't matter what she wants. She is coming with us."

"Your off the mission, Wolverine. We don't want you to stab that little girl."

*Now*

"She chose US! You can't go against her wishes!"

"Kill her, Wolverine! Quick!"


----------



## creative (Jun 6, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> *Then*
> 
> "It doesn't matter what she wants. She is coming with us."
> 
> ...


----------



## Vault (Jun 6, 2012)

Wait what. 

You are telling me Colossus is now part phoenix and Juggs at the same time? :rofl


----------



## creative (Jun 6, 2012)

ODB is gonna flip their lids when they read this. also why is beast so quiet about this. wasn't beast the one who told hope to run away in the first place and seek help from the avengers?


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 6, 2012)

Someone told me about PhoeniX-Men and I honestly didn't believe him because of how ridiculously bad it sounded. He insisted that it really happened, but since there's no way that they would do something so utterly dumb, I stood firm in my belief that he was just trollin.

Then he sent me the page:


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 6, 2012)

hahahahahahahaha


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 6, 2012)

is this the worst event ever?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 6, 2012)

This development gives me hope for some Voidclops.

I mean, let's not get all high and mighty about ideas at this point.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 6, 2012)

It's like Marvel is trying to piss me off. 

This event needs to fuck off and go die in a fire


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

The problem with events is that they were so just empty calories at their core.
Nothing but a big bu-rahrah with STATUS QUO shift at the end

The problem with this is not that it has empty calories at the core. That is indeed not a problem. The problem is that those calories are now made of arsenic


----------



## shit (Jun 6, 2012)

we phoenix now


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 6, 2012)

I have no problem with empty calorie events. Heck, the main reason I read events is for "Oh Snap!" moments and moments where you can tell the writer was just like "Let's make this as awesome as possible"

Say what you will about Civil War and Infinite Crisis being hollow or whatever, or that Final Crisis was disjointed, but bottom line those series brought the awesome, and that's all I really require of an event.

Also, did anyone else chuckle at Cyclops's phoenix costume? Lol nightclops


----------



## shit (Jun 6, 2012)

I was too busy looking at emma's costume


----------



## Cromer (Jun 6, 2012)

Still better than Fear Itself. Which isn't saying much.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 6, 2012)

no i liked fear itself more


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 6, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> I have no problem with empty calorie events. Heck, the main reason I read events is for "Oh Snap!" moments and moments where you can tell the writer was just like "Let's make this as awesome as possible"
> 
> Say what you will about Civil War and Infinite Crisis being hollow or whatever, or that Final Crisis was disjointed, but bottom line those series brought the awesome, and that's all I really require of an event.



I take it a bit further and generally best enjoy fare like Siege and Fear Itself because they also have consistent, top artists that I like, without fill-ins.

Infinite Crisis suffers by comparison.

I might fall for an Omnibus of AVX depending on how strong Coipel's issues are and whether or not the Deodato tie-ins are in.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 6, 2012)

Cromer said:


> Still better than Fear Itself. Which isn't saying much.



I disagree. Fear Itself might have been bad, but It least didn't piss me off every damn issue. and hell I at least enjoyed most of the tie ins for Fear Itself


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 6, 2012)

a creative color said:


> ODB is gonna flip their lids when they read this. also why is beast so quiet about this. wasn't beast the one who told hope to run away in the first place and seek help from the avengers?



wait, is this event so bad that Ol' Dirty Bastard is going to come back to life and flip out at it 

just damn


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

Also, yeah, real original you guys, Tony Stark builds a HUGE armor.
that's like their solution for everything. Have Tony Stark build a bigger armor
The Hulk is attacking
Tony Stark build an armor
Loki has conquered the avengers tower
Tony Stark, build an armor!
The evil invadors are attacking
Tony Stark, use your satelite canon armor
The Skrull are attacking
Tony Stark, build a new armor
Norman Osborn is attacking Asgard
Tony Stark, use a new armor
Tony Stark, everyone hates you
New Armor!
Giant Cosmic Firebird
NEEDS MOAR ARMOR


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

The worthy are wrecking havok
MAGIC ARMOR


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

Maybe Tony Stark and VonDoom are secretly just a huge "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" advertisement.


----------



## shit (Jun 6, 2012)

I only remember three of those armors


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

Hulkbuster Armor, Post-Brain Death Armor, The Avengers Movie Armor, Fear Itself Magical Armor, Avengers, Earth's Mightiest Heroes Magical Armor, Ultimate Tony Stark Space Armor, AvsX Giant armor, Bleeding Edge Neuro-Armor, Secret Invasion Extremis-Less armor, that new black ghost armor of his, the list goes on.
He has more armor than I have socks


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

Speaking of Clothing, what world is this where Condom Head and Emma  Frost are the least porn star looking X-Men?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

ph God, Uncanny X-Men, God knows you tried


Also, Scott and Emma writing the letters page
Epic

"I swear, if he wasn't hated and feared all the time, I think Scott just wouldn't know what to do with himself!"


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 6, 2012)

that was pretty damn epic.


----------



## creative (Jun 6, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Also, yeah, real original you guys, Tony Stark builds a HUGE armor.
> that's like their solution for everything. Have Tony Stark build a bigger armor
> The Hulk is attacking
> Tony Stark build an armor
> ...



Stark armor=/=prep time Batman golden age.


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 6, 2012)

Soooo, I just saw an image with the Extinction team all Phoenixified. What the balls is going on in AvX?

EDIT: Okay, I bit the bullet and read issue 5. Jesus, this is horrid stuff.


On another note, Hulk's Mayan arc is off to a great start.


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 6, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Soooo, I just saw an image with the Extinction team all Phoenixified. What the balls is going on in AvX?



Tony                       Stark


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 6, 2012)

Yeah, Tony has to be the stupidest smart person ever.


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 6, 2012)

inb4 reed richards destroys the universe by accident


----------



## typhoon72 (Jun 7, 2012)

AvX is worse than Flashpoint now.


----------



## Es (Jun 7, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Soooo, I just saw an image with the Extinction team all Phoenixified. What the balls is going on in AvX?
> 
> EDIT: Okay, I bit the bullet and read issue 5. Jesus, this is horrid stuff.
> 
> ...



I'm so glad they don't have art I like on the first part of this event, it would have made it harder to avoid 

I need to catch up on Exiled then current JIM


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 7, 2012)

typhoon72 said:


> AvX is worse than Flashpoint now.



oh come on what was really so frigging bad about the phoenix possessing multiple people


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 7, 2012)

it did during Vulcan arc and I enjoyed it :WOW

im just looking forward to what happens, its kinda somewhat premature, I mean all this is just setting things up for something


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 7, 2012)

Es said:


> I'm so glad they don't have art I like on the first part of this event, it would have made it harder to avoid
> 
> *I need to catch up on Exiled then current JIM*



Gah. I'm behind on that too. I've only read the first issue of Exiled, and Disir shenanigans are always fun.


----------



## creative (Jun 7, 2012)

Michael Lucky said:


> inb4 reed richards destroys the universe by accident



that reminds me, ultimates is getting pretty intense. apparently 
*Spoiler*: __ 



according to recent previews for #12 tony's tumor is back. and it might just be more than a tumor altogether






			
				zen-aku said:
			
		

> oh come on what was really so frigging bad about the phoenix possessing multiple people





it's just really out of place for the phoenix to have possessed colossus and magik. those two in particular are already "occupied" if you catch my drift.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 7, 2012)

I just think it's hilarious how UXM just blows AvX out of the water month after month. 

Emma getting italics because italics are classy 

Oh and Michael Lark on Winter Soldier is awesome.


----------



## shit (Jun 7, 2012)

> it's just really out of place for the phoenix to have possessed colossus and magik. those two in particular are already "occupied" if you catch my drift.


juggernaut was possessed by two things before during FI

magik's possessed?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

UXM does try to excuse the whole X-Phoenix thing


----------



## shit (Jun 7, 2012)

I really don't envy gillen and aaron these days


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 7, 2012)

I just hope Gillen stays on X - Men. Give him a decent artist and freedom to do what he wants for a couple years and marvel will have another run to stack up with Morrison's and Whedon's. Same with Aaron and Bachelo/Bradshaw. Aaron and Gillen given time and creative freedom could do great things with the 2 separate X teams.

But I feel like Gillen won't last on Uncanny, sadly.


----------



## Shadow (Jun 7, 2012)

God the Art on this AvX series is soooo bad.  I'm glad its not on grab list anymore.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 7, 2012)

The art is going to take a huge leap up next issue.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

Journey Into Mystery, take all of my money


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 7, 2012)

Cyclops, Emma, Namor, and Colossus I can understand, but why did the Phoenix possess Magik?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

You can understand Namor? 

Apparently they're her surrogate acolytes. As a metaphysical entity there seems to be a conection between the host and her five lights.
The same way Jean had Scott Warren Hank Bobby and Xavier I guess
Hope's team was meant to be it, but Unit sabotaged it, so when tony stark tonystarked, the phoenix went to the x-men instead of to her, the closest five connections she had



Which awesomely enough, does not include a certain wolverine


----------



## Kanali (Jun 7, 2012)

How is she more connected to Colossus, Emma Frost and Magik than she is to Wolverine though? I don't think she's ever spoken a word to Colossus in a comic.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

no, but the x-men are more conected to hope, as wolverine is trying really hard to murder her

For a psychic mega-being I'm guessing that matters


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

Man, it's an excuse.
My brain is going to hold on to it harder than kate winslet hogged that board


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 7, 2012)

banhammer stop complicating things with tie ins.

phoenix got all disrupted by iron man's literal plot armor. it broke into 5 parts and took over the x-men


----------



## shit (Jun 7, 2012)

no petes, banhammer is a hero for trying to justify this, let him continue to make this ok


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 7, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> You can understand Namor?



I've gotten the impression that Namor is one of the more prominent members of the team, while I haven't heard much about Magik.


----------



## shit (Jun 7, 2012)

prominent members of the team starting like one year ago


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

Hope does have the hots for him.
It would make it okay if Namor got the phoenix thank's to hope's horniness

Re-reading AvsX now that I've read UXM

Logan is about to stab that little girl, Scott stops him
Logan says
"you've gone too far"
cap says
"stop this madness"
And they work together to slice the shit out of Scott's torso


----------



## shit (Jun 7, 2012)

according to aaron logan would never hurt a kid

but he'll try by god


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

suddenly I realize exactly how wolverine intended to solve Idie's problem in Schism


----------



## shit (Jun 7, 2012)

wolverine would never kill a kid

except his own kids wait fuck


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

This explains the whole Vampire Jubilee thing so much


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 7, 2012)

Good god, the difference in quality is staggering.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 7, 2012)

oh hey a good artist


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

allofmyorgans


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

now that I think about it, the x-team is dressed mostly in Dark Phoenix collors


Oh shit son


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 7, 2012)

Spider-Woman, your green silly string will be useless.

Coipel debris particles and fire bra are a go.


----------



## Parallax (Jun 7, 2012)

and just like that Coipel saves the title


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 7, 2012)

Petes has already seen this, but I felt it necessary to post this here:



			
				Cyclops77 said:
			
		

> All you haters (IGN comics staff included) make me sick. I'm very familiar with marvel U's history 60s-90s and have purchased just about everything published x-men/avengers related since 2000. This event is legit and such a fine culmination of all that's happened in the past 10 years. It seems to me ignorance is the reason for such hate on this fine literary achievement, either because you haven't read enough or because you have but lack the ability to identify thematic and character development of the intricacy that has been accomplished in the contemporary Marvel U (2000-). That is of course with the exception of Planet Hulk and Fear Itself.
> 
> And my damn thesis is on the contemporary run of the X-men. It's goal it to reveal it's literary depth and significance.
> 
> ...



That's some _amazing_ trolling.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 7, 2012)

oh man i forgot about that


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 7, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Petes has already seen this, but I felt it necessary to post this here:
> 
> That's some _amazing_ trolling.



The first thing that comes to mind is that panel of Captain America staring down Galactus and saying "Face me galactus, if you dare!"


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 7, 2012)

I honestly want to advocate a thread invasion for that one. I think it'd be hilarious.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

whatever you do don't post links or you'l get banned

I repeat

Do not spread links for that


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 7, 2012)

No problem; don't intend to spread out links.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 7, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> I honestly want to advocate a thread invasion for that one. I think it'd be hilarious.



I'm interested to see how that will develop.


----------



## Taleran (Jun 7, 2012)

It is strange how costume dependent the Marvel U has seemed to have gotten.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 7, 2012)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I'm interested to see how that will develop.



Shh. Don't tell anyone. It will be a _Secret_ Invasion.

... And now I need to find a Skrull Avatar.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

If the reason Gillen drops X-Men is the fallout of this event Avenger tribute wank I am going to be depressed


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 7, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 








what is this?


OH MY GOD, WHAT IS THIS?


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 7, 2012)

It looks like thats Storm in the background bringing rain to the crops. ...Wouldn't it be hilarious if the Phoenix' big plan was to actually make a utopia? An actual utopia? And the Avengers smash it to bits.

More and more, AvX sounds like an issue of What If? instead of a 616 story.


----------



## shit (Jun 8, 2012)

just read the latest thunderbolts

fixer ;___;


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 8, 2012)

Phonix's secret plan was to heal Piotr's baldness



Bergelmir said:


> It looks like thats Storm in the background bringing rain to the crops. ...Wouldn't it be hilarious if the Phoenix' big plan was to actually make a utopia? An actual utopia? And the Avengers smash it to bits.
> 
> More and more, AvX sounds like an issue of What If? instead of a 616 story.



"They may take away our hunger, our diseases, our violent conflicts, our polution, our low G.P.A.s and bring global harmony but they will never TAKE OUR FREEDUM!"


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 8, 2012)

Cromer said:


> Still better than Fear Itself. Which isn't saying much.



This post is objectively, statistically and categorically incorrect. 

avx is without a doubt the worst event ever. I hate Fear Itself and I can say it is a gajillion times superior to this

I honestly get angry in real-life when I think about avx, the only other time I've gotten angry was with ultimates 3. My mind seethes with rage at _how_ the marvel writers are so stupid, so ignorant, so brainless at continuing this idiocy.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 8, 2012)

Does Ultimatum count as an event? Ultimatum was worse. Identity Crisis maybe too. 


It's not like it's actually offended me, besides my intelligence. It's just so lowest common denominator it's ridiculous. Besides being heroes fighting itself it's more of the really stupid fanficlike trend of WOULDN'T IT BE COOL IF THE PHOENIX/THORS HAMMER/GAMMA RAYS/POWER RINGS TRANSFORMED A BUNCH OF HEROES??

Oh yeah, and lol at how marvel was saying AvX would show movie fans what comics do best. Yeah, it showed them overreaching editorial, rotating writers, and art delays totally ruining a comic


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 8, 2012)

ultimatum at least had good reasoning behind it, ultimates 3 and avx do not and were clear attempts by "writers" to be COOL and AWESOME and THIS IS RADICAL DUDE 

As if they're targeting the imaginary 'frat-boy' comic book fans.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 8, 2012)

did ultimatum have good reasoning behind it? :S 

i still loathe that comic more than any other.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 8, 2012)

The word "Cauterization" is the word here for ultimatum


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 8, 2012)

The idea is that after a mere eight years, Marvel thought the Ultimate universe was too drenched in continuity and thus was inaccessible, so they decide to kill as many characters as possible in order to justify a relaunch of the imprint. Since my first Marvel comic was Ultimate Spider-Man, and which I picked up from the beginning last year, I call BS on that.

So yes, it had reasoning, but it was incredibly stupid. Then in order to kick off the next Ultimate Comics imprint, they killed off Spider-Man. Apparently the only way to relaunch the Ultimate universe is to kill people.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 8, 2012)

You completely missed the point, it wasn't because of continuity. The Ultimate universe was becoming a carbon copy of the 616verse, which was against the whole purpose of it in the first place

EDIT: Also the death of Spider-Man happened WAY after Ultimatum


----------



## Blitzomaru (Jun 8, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> ultimatum at least had good reasoning behind it, ultimates 3 and avx do not and were clear attempts by "writers" to be COOL and AWESOME and THIS IS RADICAL DUDE
> 
> As if they're targeting the imaginary 'frat-boy' comic book fans.



I don't think I can believe anything you will ever say now....


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 9, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> You completely missed the point, it wasn't because of continuity. The Ultimate universe was becoming a carbon copy of the 616verse, which was against the whole purpose of it in the first place
> 
> EDIT: Also the death of Spider-Man happened WAY after Ultimatum



You're both right really. I think both were reasons. Originally the ultimate universe wasn't meant to be so different though, just a really modern update of the more stale old fashioned 616. But then the 616 universe caught up with the times and became more accessible, and that's when they said 'lets make the ultimate universe really different'


And yeah it got bogged down in continuity too


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 9, 2012)

Blitzomaru said:


> I don't think I can believe anything you will ever say now....



I'm smarter than you and always right, kid. Prove me wrong


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 9, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> You completely missed the point, it wasn't because of continuity. The Ultimate universe was becoming a carbon copy of the 616verse, which was against the whole purpose of it in the first place
> 
> EDIT: Also the death of Spider-Man happened WAY after Ultimatum



I always heard it was because of the continuity. It makes more sense for it resulting in a relaunch, although it being too much like 616 makes sense. One example that comes to mind is that the Carnage symbiote got absorbed back into Venom in both universes.

I know Death of Spider-Man happened afterwards, hence why I said "then", but it was only last year, and just two years after Ultimatum. The point is that of the two relaunches the Ultimate universe has seen, they've been caused by something where the whole point is that someone dies.


----------



## Blitzomaru (Jun 9, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> I'm smarter than you and always right, kid. Prove me wrong



You said there was good reasoning behind Ultimatum. I win.

And in case you think there was, Magneto gets pissed because his son was killed. The same son he crippled and would have killed months ago. Because of his hatred of humans. And he winds up killing scores of mutants. And blob is a cannibal for some reason.


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 9, 2012)

oh Ultimatum


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 9, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> I always heard it was because of the continuity. It makes more sense for it resulting in a relaunch, although it being too much like 616 makes sense. One example that comes to mind is that the Carnage symbiote got absorbed back into Venom in both universes.
> 
> I know Death of Spider-Man happened afterwards, hence why I said "then", but it was only last year, and just two years after Ultimatum. The point is that of the two relaunches the Ultimate universe has seen, they've been caused by something where the whole point is that someone dies.



Fair enough, I can agree with that



Blitzomaru said:


> You said there was good reasoning behind Ultimatum. I win.
> 
> And in case you think there was, Magneto gets pissed because his son was killed. The same son he crippled and would have killed months ago. Because of his hatred of humans. And he winds up killing scores of mutants. And blob is a cannibal for some reason.



I love saying this

The point --------> 





























































































Your head ------------->

I'm feeling nice today so I'll give you one last chance to back out here kid otherwise I will make you look stupid, your choice


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 9, 2012)

I believe in Lazer Dent


----------



## Blitzomaru (Jun 9, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Fair enough, I can agree with that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No  wanna hear this. You sad there was a good reasoning behind Ultimatum and I want to hear this. I'll agree there was a _reasoning _behind it. It might have had good intentions. But it was not a good reasoning.


----------



## shit (Jun 9, 2012)

"I'm right about this subjective judgment"
"no me"

guys srsly


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 9, 2012)

Le sigh





With a traditional evolution of writing styles much like the lofty eighties were abandoned for a more extreme and over the top 90's, the new millenium presented in itself a massive shift in comic book history.
Now the ultimate universe, born out of Ultimate Spiderman, and began around nine eleven, had a clean slate for all the writers to take these legacy myths to themselves, and they could feel free to fully show what twenty first century artist is all about, while the main continuity, who also shared these artists took a much slower path to the twenty first style, having fifty years of luggage to adjust to.
This also marks a time where movies and trade paperbacks showed a major rise in sales.
However as  Ultimate gained more and more continuity, and 616 became more and more homogenous to the modern styles of ultimate, a few problems began to become clear
The UX-men was simply no longer working, and increasingly terrible movies by fox slowly ate away new readers for once, and UFF was all but dead, with civil war, another capitalizing attempt on movies and the events trend not having helped the situation because of it's good idea but overall over reaching execution.
This and Loeb's Ultimates 3 destroyed just about all the momentum the ultimate universe had going on for itself.

So, as 616 had become more  like Ultimate in style, Ultimate needed a massive and clear cut away from the main continuity, in order to remain relevant and worthwhile as a story telling, to become a two front profit tactic, rather than a split of the existing customer base whose preferences varied slightly between which variant would offer.
For example, after one more day, you have two books with a "young spider-man" so spider-man fans instead of increasing in size, would just buy the one who also had iceman and the human torch instead
Thus Ultimatum was born

Good reasoning. Alas, like always in marvel, they went ahead and fucked it up anyway, by giving it to Loeb


----------



## shit (Jun 9, 2012)

loeb is such a cancer


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 9, 2012)

Also, plotwise, ultimatum happened because like in all of loeb's stories, he just wanted to remind everyone he's still sad and angry about his dead son, so here's a picture of the blob eating chicken wasp
Yes I'm a monster, I know I know


----------



## shit (Jun 9, 2012)

I think that has more to do with loeb's laziness
he puts any idea he has directly into a comic, with no thought to how it connects, if it makes sense, or any reasoning for it whatsoever


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 9, 2012)

it's not like loeb at least constructs a strong standalone story either, its not like if you go 'ok forget the continuity and its pretty good', he's just a bad writer


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 9, 2012)

yeah but the father-kid drama is like the driving plot point of everything

Ultimates 3- Magneto flipping about his daughter, wolverine having sex with maximoff's mother
Ultimatum - magneto flipping about his kids, jhonny storm and his father
ultimate x - wolverine's kid
new ultimates- tony stark sobbing about some strange kid named steve dying of cancer
red hulk - general ross who has always had a bitch fit about his daughter

Seriously just pick one and it'll beat you upside the head with BY THE WAY DID YOU KNOW MY KID IS DEAD


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 9, 2012)

Fuck, Ultimate black panther was about t'chala and his father excomunicating him for his own safety


----------



## Blitzomaru (Jun 9, 2012)

^Exactly. that's paramount in every Loeb story lately. Some father/son death that I'd say 90% of the time makes the characters we already know do things they would never ever do. Like Magneto drowning New York, killing scores of mutants because his son was killed. The same son whom he crippled and seriously tried to kill himself. Taking Blob who had some awesome character development in Ultimate Spidey not months prior, and making him some crazy cannibal. Making Jan White for some reason. I guess that could be blamed on the god aweful Joe Mad art, but still....Turning Thor into his 616 counterpart. Magneto kills Xavier by snapping his neck, like Charles couldn't have stopped him in an instant. The whole thing was just deaths for the sake of shock value. Like a bad Micheal bay movie. All quantity but no quality.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 9, 2012)

Yeah but that is besides the point


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 10, 2012)

Blitzomaru said:


> ^Exactly. that's paramount in every Loeb story lately. Some father/son death that I'd say 90% of the time makes the characters we already know do things they would never ever do. Like Magneto drowning New York, killing scores of mutants because his son was killed. The same son whom he crippled and seriously tried to kill himself. Taking Blob who had some awesome character development in Ultimate Spidey not months prior, and making him some crazy cannibal. Making Jan White for some reason. I guess that could be blamed on the god aweful Joe Mad art, but still....Turning Thor into his 616 counterpart. Magneto kills Xavier by snapping his neck, like Charles couldn't have stopped him in an instant. The whole thing was just deaths for the sake of shock value. Like a bad Micheal bay movie. All quantity but no quality.



My god you cankerous whore, you are _dense_. Did you not see Ban's glorious wall of text? Or did you ignore it because it wasn't from me? If that was the case, I'm honoured but that doesn't make you any more right than you were before.

But I digress.

Now onto why _you_ are stupid and _I_ am the most amazing bedroom super-nerd in existence. Let's start from the beginning, in my original post I stated that "ultimatum had good *reasoning* behind it". Because you are stupid, I will point out that the key word here I have both bolded and italics, I could have underlined it as well however I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here. For now. 

In a righteous fervor, you jump in and make a personal attack at this statement, citing all the things that was bad about ultimatum, which is included in the above quote. Please note this is probably the only time _I_ will say this to you, so frame it and put it on your wall or something, *those points are right*. Look I even made it stand out, no-one can claim that I am nothing if not fair. 

Now before you start feeling awfully proud about yourself and have a celebratory beat-off, here comes the but;

But you are wrong because that has *nothing* to do with what I said. Because of your double-digit IQ, I have also underlined the key word here. I like to emphasis things.

"WHY!??!?!," you wonder, "He just said I was right!". Don't worry child, I'll explain why I am correct (as always) and you are dirt at my feet. 

Go back to my original word that I only bolded and italics, reasoning. _Do you know what that word means_? You really need to answer that before you proceed, hit up dictionary.com if you must but do so before I continue because I will not humour you _that_ much.

So instead of explaining it myself, I'll give an example so your little grey has something to reference by. World War 2 and the atomic bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were crucial in ending that war. Was the act of killing hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in any way shape or form 'good' or 'noble'? Again I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here because we should know the answer to that question.

However was the _*reasoning*_ for dropping the bombs 'necessary'? Absolutely. It ended the most devastating war in the history of man, a "_necessary evil_' so to speak.

Can you understand, Mr "I think I'm smarter than omg laser pew pew!", can you comprehend the difference in what I _was saying_ and what you _thought_ I was saying? Again I'll assume that you don't, you clearly wanted to make this a 'thing' (lol) but don't feel bad about it, it's not your fault that your parents are related to each other. 

The _*reasoning*_ behind ultimatum was good and correct because the Ultimateverse was becoming bogged down in a cesspool of shittiness and low-ebb, which has been _extensively_ detailed by other people in this thread. It _needed_ to be cleaned up and return to what it originally was. That was the _*reasoning*_ behind ultimatum.

Now onto the part that makes you think you somehow proved me wrong, _HOW_ it was done. As you continue to preach, ultimatum is incredibly bad. I'm not going to bother detailing it because right now my rage and hate is directed at avx and I've buried ultimatum in my mind long ago.

Another saying, which is also relevant here is "The way to hell is paved by noble intentions". I'll leave at that for now because I'm tired and think I'll be having a celebratory beat-off, but like I said I'm feeling kind today. I'll let you suck my dick and we can call it even, ok?


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 10, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> For example, after one more day, you have two books with a "young spider-man" so spider-man fans instead of increasing in size, would just buy the one who also had iceman and the human torch instead
> Thus Ultimatum was born



So in other words, One More Day is an indirect factor in the creation of Ultimatum?



I think I've brought this up before on another site, but that just makes the reasoning behind One More Day dumber. If the idea is that Spider-Man needs to be an iconic young hero. In that case, there's Ultimate Spider-Man. Unless that doesn't count, and the one we should be interested in is the 616 Spider-Man, but if that's the case, then you're saying that we shouldn't care about Ultimate Spider-Man, and those who care about him anyway get about four more years before he's killed.



aubro said:


> loeb is such a cancer



On the one hand, I want to call you out on using that word because his son died from a form of cancer, but at the same time, that's one of most accurate words to describe how much of a detriment Loeb is. However, I can name three people I have bigger problems with:

1. Joe Quesada for pulling off what Marvel has always wanted to do: Make Spider-Man single again, because apparently the character young readers should relate must be someone whose life is filled with misfortune and the death of his loved ones.
2. Tom Brevoort, for saying that the marriage between Peter and Mary Jane was forced, and then immediately saying that the marriage between Black Panther and Storm is a natural progression for both characters. I have not read the weddings of either couple, but Mary Jane is a supporting character of Peter's book and had a relationship with Peter that was gradually developed over many years, and while I have nothing against Black Panther or Storm, their marriage seems to be nothing more than a publicity stunt to appeal to black people. To those who take offense to that last part, I apologize.
3. Stephen Wacker, for making some rather unprofessional comments when people call him out. On the site I alluded to before, Spider-Man Crawlspace, I have given a name what I hope to be a new meme: .



Banhammer said:


> Also, plotwise, ultimatum happened because like in all of loeb's stories, he just wanted to remind everyone he's still sad and angry about his dead son, so here's a picture of the blob eating chicken wasp
> Yes I'm a monster, I know I know



I do offer Loeb my condolences for the loss of his son, and I don't want to say anything that could be taken as an offense to the boy, but given the examples you listed, it comes across more like Loeb trying to exploit his son's death for storytelling, which is just sickening. I can understand getting inspiration from a tragedy in one's life, but if you're going to do that, make it mean something, don't use it as a recurring theme in your stories, especially if the stories are as mean-spirited as Ultimatum.


I hate the reputation system because I can't give omg laser pew pew! more than one.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 10, 2012)

Fun/INFURIATING fact about ultimatum, loeb originally proposed the story, except with it all being undone in the end. And marvel went omgno! we could use this to make sweeping changes!


----------



## shit (Jun 10, 2012)

the one good idea loeb's had at marvel, they shoot down

classic


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 10, 2012)

That's because apparently in the Ultimate universe, there is no such thing as "backsies."

I now demand to see a list of any development in the Ultimate universe being undone, particularly deaths.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 10, 2012)

beast, gwen, and green goblin deaths. all that apocalypse stuff had a lot undone.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 10, 2012)

Kirkman's run was largely ignored. The final Apocalypse story was pretty bad but it wasn't as bad as the follow-up writer


----------



## Cromer (Jun 10, 2012)

I just read AvX 5 six hours ago.

I just finished gathering the pieces of my brain.


Cromer said:


> Still better than Fear Itself. Which isn't saying much.



I completely and utterly retract this statement in its entirety. That was intensely foolish of me.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 10, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> So in other words, One More Day is an indirect factor in the creation of Ultimatum?



Well, sooorta.
It's more like these two events are cousins.


> I think I've brought this up before on another site, but that just makes the reasoning behind One More Day dumber. If the idea is that Spider-Man needs to be an iconic young hero. In that case, there's Ultimate Spider-Man. Unless that doesn't count, and the one we should be interested in is the 616 Spider-Man, but if that's the case, then you're saying that we shouldn't care about Ultimate Spider-Man, and those who care about him anyway get about four more years before he's killed.


Pretty much. Ultimate doesn't count.
Case in point, people who wanted a married spider-man had spider-girl to buy into, but lo and behold, spider-girl did not fly out the shelves.
It's the same reason why Avengers is the third highest grossing film of all time, besides WHEDON 
You see 616 is not just about being the real spider-man, it's about the real spider-man who gets to meet up with the real mj, the real doctor octavius, the real captain america and the real Thor.
It's about being part of Your Universe.

Case in point, when miles morales came around you had glenn beck going "It's not even the reeeeeeaaaaall spider-man. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, BUT THOSE LIBERALS MAKE ME WANNA CRY" or something



> On the one hand, I want to call you out on using that word because his son died from a form of cancer, but at the same time, that's one of most accurate words to describe how much of a detriment Loeb is. However, I can name three people I have bigger problems with:


I actually have few objections with Loeb as an animation director.
There's been some decisions I fundamentally disagree with but can accept the reasoning behind as logical
He just cannot touch the artistic direction.
Like in heroes. Season one, great, season two where he got his hands on the script, horrible. 
Got fired and everything


> 1. Joe Quesada for pulling off what Marvel has always wanted to do: Make Spider-Man single again, because apparently the character young readers should relate must be someone whose life is filled with misfortune and the death of his loved ones.


He shall forever be PNG but he has also made decisions that saved Marvel from bankruptcy into a billion dollar company.
Even if he makes every character a puppy killing incestuous republican that listen to justin bieber, he'll still have done more good than harm.
Asshole.


> 2. Tom Brevoort, for saying that the marriage between Peter and Mary Jane was forced, and then immediately saying that the marriage between Black Panther and Storm is a natural progression for both characters. I have not read the weddings of either couple, but Mary Jane is a supporting character of Peter's book and had a relationship with Peter that was gradually developed over many years, and while I have nothing against Black Panther or Storm, their marriage seems to be nothing more than a publicity stunt to appeal to black people. To those who take offense to that last part, I apologize.


That's the general opinion. Tom Breevot justifies it by citing some obscure pannels that happened back when Ororo and T'chala were the only chocolate in marvel's oreo.
But it's here now, and nothing horrible has happened anyway, and I was never even remotely invested in Forge or anything, so I'm all for it.

Regarding Mary Jane, I do wish we'd see more of her and Norman being Foggy Nelson to Peter's Matt Murdock 


> 3. Stephen Wacker, for making some rather unprofessional comments when people call him out. On the site I alluded to before, Spider-Man Crawlspace, I have given a name what I hope to be a new meme: .



'm not sure what you mean



> I do offer Loeb my condolences for the loss of his son, and I don't want to say anything that could be taken as an offense to the boy, but given the examples you listed, it comes across more like Loeb trying to exploit his son's death for storytelling, which is just sickening. I can understand getting inspiration from a tragedy in one's life, but if you're going to do that, make it mean something, don't use it as a recurring theme in your stories, especially if the stories are as mean-spirited as Ultimatum.


It's not an exploitation, the man is just stuck in a loop.
It's understandable, but I wouldn't buy a book two hundred dollars worth of comics drawn by an artist with no hands out of sympathy


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 10, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> Fun/INFURIATING fact about ultimatum, loeb originally proposed the story, except with it all being undone in the end. And marvel went omgno! we could use this to make sweeping changes!



Ultimate apocalypse style?

Uugh.

Terrible story telling. How I wish he had gona ahead with it


K Gillen describing an amazing scene he had to cut


> The scene... well, it was Magneto questioning Storm on her loyalties. As in, if it comes to violence whose side are you on? Storm says "I'll defend the island" and Magneto is "Good enough" and they walk off.
> 
> Throughout the scene, unknown to Storm, Magneto is levitating a hypodermic behind her back.


----------



## LIL_M0 (Jun 10, 2012)

dat Phoenix 5


----------



## shit (Jun 10, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> K Gillen describing an amazing scene he had to cut



need more scenes like this

I'd actually buy everyone treating scott like a madman if he was harboring ppl like this

another case where censoring subtly ruins everything


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 10, 2012)

Eric and Ororo really have me engaged in their roles as Greek Chorus to the team


----------



## Kanali (Jun 10, 2012)

Thats an awesome scene, its a shame they left it out. Really reminds you that Magneto by his own admission hasn't really changed, his goal has always been the survival the mutant species at any cost and the way he sees it Cyclops is the way if the future.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 10, 2012)

Well, he hasn't changed, the world around him has, so he has simply changed his strategy.


He has also realized that his obsession has cost him everything in his life, and in that he is a more humble, more patient man, but he is, at his heart and will always be Eric Lensher.

He's also, despite his body eighty something or ninety something by now, I don't know, so he's at that stage as an old man, he rarely gives a fuck about what other people think

Like a jewish well educated Clint Eastwood


----------



## shit (Jun 10, 2012)

they should go ahead and come up with some excuse for him being so old and still able to be drawn buff as fuck


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 10, 2012)

Mojo turned him and a couple of others into babies back in the eighties, and he was returned to a slightly younger age.

Then when the X-Men came to san francisco the high evolutionary gave him another fountain of youth cocktail

The guy sure is getting a lot of breaks for someone who is actually not obsessed with his own mortality.

He looks like Pietro's reasonably older brother


----------



## shit (Jun 10, 2012)

oh well cool

they should casually bring it up now and then


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 10, 2012)

they really should.
Specially since Rogue is constantly trying not to mac on him


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 10, 2012)

Magneto is a purple pimp


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 11, 2012)

Still waiting for the Doom/Namor/Magneto mini 

Written by Gillen and Hickman.


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Still waiting for the Doom/Namor/Magneto mini
> 
> Written by Gillen and Hickman.


Wait this sounds like the best comic news I've heard for a while. When was this annnounced?

I feel that I really want an 'evil' Reed story that isn't Ultimate too.


----------



## shit (Jun 11, 2012)

reed was evil in the zombie verse


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2012)

aubro said:


> reed was evil in the zombie verse


I hate zombies, and I meant mainstream stuff.

I dunno. Maybe I want an alternate Reed to kidnap and replace current Reed and proceed to 'solve everything'. Only to be stopped by the 'Parliment of Doom'.


----------



## shit (Jun 11, 2012)

there are evil reeds in hickman's run of ff


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2012)

aubro said:


> there are evil reeds in hickman's run of ff


Yeah...I know that. Which is why I want an alternate Reed to do it as they arn't held back by having family values etc.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 11, 2012)

And very few zombies


----------



## shit (Jun 11, 2012)

pretty sure all the evil reeds are dead now


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2012)

aubro said:


> pretty sure all the evil reeds are dead now


Yeah, sad sad news. Hopefully another pops up somehow.

Can't see 616 Reed tuning into what I want. But it would be nice too see.

Atleast we have Doom.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 11, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> Wait this sounds like the best comic news I've heard for a while. When was this annnounced?



I'm pretty sure he was just joking about a mini he actually wants to see.

Considering how in interviews about Spider-Men, it has been teased that future 616/Ultimate crossovers are possibly, 616 Reed vs. Ultimate Reed is entirely possible. I know you didn't want it to be Ultimate Reed, but it's entirely possible.

Also, since Jim Cheung is one of my favorite artists now, here's his cover for Avengers vs. X-Men #11.


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> I'm pretty sure he was just joking about a mini he actually wants to see.
> 
> Considering how in interviews about Spider-Men, it has been teased that future 616/Ultimate crossovers are possibly, 616 Reed vs. Ultimate Reed is entirely possible. I know you didn't want it to be Ultimate Reed, but it's entirely possible.



I feel if Reed was replaced it should be by another Reed who is also stretchy and a similar age.

Ultimate Reed is deformed and too young. Otherwise, I woudn't mind if it was Ultimate Reed who replaced him. As long as it didn't prompt more Ultimate crossovers.



Phantom Roxas said:


> Also, since Jim Cheung is one of my favorite artists now, here's his cover for Avengers vs. X-Men #11.


Cheung is great. But I doubt having good covers will redeem this event.


----------



## shit (Jun 11, 2012)

I like cap randomly getting pelted with ricochet


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 11, 2012)

aubro said:


> I like cap randomly getting pelted with ricochet



Randomly....right.


----------



## shit (Jun 11, 2012)

no one's even shooting at him

unless you think scott or emma made that happen while looking away

the artist shot him more than any character


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 11, 2012)

sniped by skurge prob


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 11, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> I hate zombies, and I meant mainstream stuff.
> 
> I dunno. Maybe I want an alternate Reed to kidnap and replace current Reed and proceed to 'solve everything'. Only to be stopped by the 'Parliment of Doom'.



but reed's not evil

just read ultimates


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> but reed's not evil
> 
> just read ultimates


I do read Ultimates and if you read Fantastic Four from Dark Reign you will learn that Reed in every other universe that tried to solve everything ended up doing some not so good things in order to do it. Only 616 Reed is resistant to do that because of his family and his father etc.

Ultimate Reed is like Reed with no restrictions, but I want to see a 616 Reed become an enemy to the good guys. Like how the Nazi Reed accidently destroyed his universe (or galaxy?) trying to ssolve the worlds problems his own way, fighting off the Avengers and X-Men.

Reed seems like a very intresting character with the potential to be a great villain. he is alot like Doctor Doom.

Maybe Reed Dark Reign Fantastic Four onwards to know what I mean.


----------



## shit (Jun 11, 2012)

well you might as well write a fanfiction

cuz it seems like your only hope


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 11, 2012)

or_ just read ultimates_


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## shit (Jun 11, 2012)

petes you obvs haven't read dark reign f4 onwards so there's no way you could know what he means


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## Petes12 (Jun 11, 2012)

i have read it. hickman wrote ultimates and ff. he's given us plenty of evil reed. they're not going to make 616 reed evil, obviously. if he wants to see what it'd be like if reed turned evil and became a big villain to all the other superheroes READ ULTIMATES. there's more than enough of the evil reed stuff.


----------



## shit (Jun 11, 2012)

hahaha

I was being sarcastic petes, gosh


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 11, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> I'm pretty sure he was just joking about a mini he actually wants to see.
> 
> Considering how in interviews about Spider-Men, it has been teased that future 616/Ultimate crossovers are possibly, 616 Reed vs. Ultimate Reed is entirely possible. I know you didn't want it to be Ultimate Reed, but it's entirely possible.
> 
> Also, since Jim Cheung is one of my favorite artists now, here's his cover for Avengers vs. X-Men #11.



Like the rest of avx, the fight will be for one panel


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 11, 2012)

I get what he's saying. There's been lots of villanous redemptions in the 616 lately, so once in a while it would be nice to see villany from a hero, but considering you got AVX going on and Scott has officially PUNCHED CAPTAIN AMERICA  you can get you fall from grace fix there.

Now it's hard to picture Reed as a villain, because it's really hard to imagine a genuinely evil family man without making all his family evil, but if you really must read about evil reeds, then you can
Read Council of Reeds
Read Ultimates
Read Planetary
Read Frightful Four
Read Ultimate Fantastic Four, Frightful Four
Read anything with the Mad Thinker, Evil Banner or The Leader on it
The list is not short.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 11, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Like the rest of avx, the fight will be for one panel



no coipel is one of the few guys that can actually draw fights


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 12, 2012)

That has nothing to do with avx one-panelling nearly every fight


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## Phantom Roxas (Jun 12, 2012)

That's because they're relying on every tie-in to resolve them.


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## Petes12 (Jun 12, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> That has nothing to do with avx one-panelling nearly every fight



sure it does. the artists are given some license to draw things the way they want


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 12, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> sure it does. the artists are given some license to draw things the way they want



Are you going to say that JRJR had 100% control over how panelling went? You don't think that maybe, just maybe the writers give him guidelines on what appears where?


----------



## Tzeentch (Jun 12, 2012)

Hi new here.
I have a question do any of you think The Dark Knight Rises will be better than the Avengers?


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 12, 2012)

Artists are told what is suppposed to be in every panel on every page.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 12, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> Artists are told what is suppposed to be in every panel on every page.



And then they give the author some feedback too.

Like the pannel with Iron Mecha. That shit was all JrJr

It's also up to them to interpret emotion and the range of it.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 12, 2012)

tari101190 said:


> Artists are told what is suppposed to be in every panel on every page.



Not really

You think anyone told coipel exactly how to layout sentry beating up ares?


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 12, 2012)

Blood God said:


> Hi new here.
> I have a question do any of you think The Dark Knight Rises will be better than the Avengers?



"Better" is a matter of perspective. I'm sure it will have a better plot, since The Avengers was really a standard "Save the World" story. However, it's hard to tell whether or not The Dark Knight Rises will be better with juggling its characters, something that The Avengers has received high praise for.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> Not really
> 
> You think anyone told coipel exactly how to layout sentry beating up ares?



Dunno but Sentry's Final Fantasy boss form was all Coipel according to Bendis.


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 12, 2012)

Yes the writer does have to detail everything. I've written comics where I've had to be pretty detailed aboout what I want, otherwise the artist wil not know what to draw. Unless you tell them to 'go crazy and draw what you want', the default thing to expect is that the comics will have details.

You can find comic scripts online or at the back of collected editions which have the scripts to compare.

Of course you must detail and coreograph every fight for the artist. What happens in the fight must be planned out to match up with what happens next. Even minor details are important. Every action is planned out into panels to determine the layout of a page. It's not usually the artists job to make things up, just to animate the script. It's the writers job to determine what happens.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 12, 2012)

gee it sure is weird how different artists have such unique layouts all their own if they're told exactly what to do by the writers.


----------



## Glued (Jun 12, 2012)

So who won the fight between strange and Illyana


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 12, 2012)

illyana via tricking strange into going into limbo


----------



## Taleran (Jun 13, 2012)

Changes coming down. Rumors have arrived.


----------



## Mael (Jun 13, 2012)

I want Sam Keith back in artistry for Marvel:


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 13, 2012)

why does that make me think of 'what if tim burton wrote comics'?

edit: urgh bleeding cool did we really need the gross dentistry pics


----------



## Mael (Jun 13, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> why does that make me think of 'what if tim burton wrote comics'?



Huh...not a bad concept.  But Sam Keith also did The Maxx...so the style is from there.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Taleran said:


> Changes coming down. Rumors have arrived.



I'd open arm the first two and would wait and see the latter.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 13, 2012)

If that last one is true I hope Gillen leaves Marvel.

Getting saddled with Land, having to fit all of his X stories into an event (and STILL telling amazing stories), then getting booted off said franchise because of Bendis' seniority. Iron Man's a nice consolation prize, but this is ridiculous.


----------



## Parallax (Jun 13, 2012)

I like the first two rumors but I'm pretty disappointed with the last two :|

why do we need another X-Men title


----------



## Parallax (Jun 13, 2012)

after some reflecting I change my mind on the first rumor.  Fuck that just go back to X Force I don't need an Astonishing Avengers title


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 13, 2012)

only thing really disappointing here is gillen off uxm

otherwise it generally sounds nice


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm just not going to be able to enjoy Bendis' X men no matter how good it is. Even at my most optimistic, what gillen could have done given free reign and a decent artist >>>> what bendis will do with the same.


----------



## shit (Jun 13, 2012)

f4 > avengers > uxm > iron man > f4

comic musical chairs


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 13, 2012)

For those who haven't seen them yet, .



Petes12 said:


> urgh bleeding cool did we really need the gross dentistry pics



Considering Bleeding Cool's awful format for posting solicitations, it doesn't surprise me that they would have gross pictures like that. It just seemed like a contrived way to take advantage of the pun of "fillings".

I don't really see the point of Astonishing Avengers, but I've heard good things about Remender, so it might end up being good.

Same with Hickman, so putting him in charge of The Avengers sounds nice as well.

It sounds like Fantastic Four will be in good hands, although the new team for Invincible Iron Man sounds weird. Hopefully Gillen's writing on the book ends up being better than Land's "art".

I loved what I've read of Ultimate Spider-Man, but I know people have very different feelings about Bendis' Avengers run. I don't really see the point in relaunching X-Men, although I guess we'll have to wait until October to see what the post-AvX world will be like.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 13, 2012)

They need something to fill in for new avengers, so it'll be astonishing

I actually think land will be pretty good with high tech armor shit


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 13, 2012)

I'll be fine if Bendis takes Land and writes Uncanny X-Men if Land takes anyone else and writes X-Tinction


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 13, 2012)

Hmm Hickman on Avengers should be good. so long as he doesn't go nuts like he's done on Ultimates. Remender on Astonishing i'll definitly be picking up.

Not to keen to see Bendis on X-Men, but whatever


----------



## Cromer (Jun 13, 2012)

Come to the DC side, Gillen! You can take over Superman instead, get a real writer on that book, with an artist to match.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 13, 2012)

Hmm, The Juggernaut beat the Thing with the power of comunism


----------



## shit (Jun 13, 2012)

don't really see how Iron Man is a step down from UXM

unless you're talking sales, but who keeps up with that shit

if you're talking creative freedom though, IIM is where you wanna be
stand alone character with supporting cast and rogues gallery nobody else messes with
what more could you want?

bendis and aaron on x-men can go event crazy while the rest of the marvel universe proceeds to ignore them, don't see how this is bad
of course anyone replacing gillen is a step down, but anyone replacing whoever it was on plain x-men is a step up
I'm pleased

fraction on f4 is the only one I'm hesitant on
I'm kinda played out on fraction, and now that he's left his golden egg laying goose (IIM), I may start to hate him altogether

as far as remender goes, everything he touches turns to gold
same with hickman


----------



## shit (Jun 13, 2012)

Cromer said:


> Come to the DC side, Gillen! You can take over Superman instead, get a real writer on that book, with an artist to match.



lol sorry
he needs a character with at least the potential to be witty
maybe a lex luthor centric series instead


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 13, 2012)

He will leave Journey Into Mystery over my cold dead hands


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 13, 2012)

aubro said:


> lol sorry
> he needs a character with at least the potential to be witty
> maybe a lex luthor centric series instead



he can write superman however he wants if he did come over to superman i'd be so happy


----------



## Es (Jun 13, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> illyana via tricking strange into going into limbo



Yost and the art were the only good things in the new issues

Glad Legacy has better art now


----------



## shit (Jun 13, 2012)

hey guys remember diggle?

w/e happened to him?


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 13, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> he can write superman however he wants if he did come over to superman i'd be so happy



Same here.

And Iron Man's not a bad prize, but it still sucks that he got pushed off the book. His X - Men would have been great, I feel like if he had gotten a solid artist and some level of free reign he'd have a run on par with Whedon and Morrison.


----------



## shit (Jun 13, 2012)

I'd be so depressed


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 13, 2012)

DC needs to come in and take advantage of any depression. DO IT DC.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 13, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Well, sooorta.
> It's more like these two events are cousins.



Whatever, it gives me another thing to hold against One More Day.



Banhammer said:


> Pretty much. Ultimate doesn't count.
> Case in point, people who wanted a married spider-man had spider-girl to buy into, but lo and behold, spider-girl did not fly out the shelves.
> It's the same reason why Avengers is the third highest grossing film of all time, besides WHEDON
> You see 616 is not just about being the real spider-man, it's about the real spider-man who gets to meet up with the real mj, the real doctor octavius, the real captain america and the real Thor.
> It's about being part of Your Universe.



But that brings me back to my point that it implies Marvel doesn't think we should care about the other universes. From what I heard, in regards to the reaction over One More Day, Quesada basically said "If you want to read about a married Spider-Man, go read Spider-Girl," and he actually liked that book. However, if we want to know about the real Spider-Man, why not let him be the one who gets to grow older? I really can't see a reasonable excuse for why 616 Peter Parker can never be married.



Banhammer said:


> Case in point, when miles morales came around you had glenn beck going "It's not even the reeeeeeaaaaall spider-man. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, BUT THOSE LIBERALS MAKE ME WANNA CRY" or something



Yeah, but isn't Glenn Beck someone whose opinion we shouldn't give a damn about? If anything, people were bitching more about Miles Morales' race than the fact that Spider-Man was actually dead, but only because Marvel made too much of a deal about it.



Banhammer said:


> I actually have few objections with Loeb as an animation director.
> There's been some decisions I fundamentally disagree with but can accept the reasoning behind as logical
> He just cannot touch the artistic direction.
> Like in heroes. Season one, great, season two where he got his hands on the script, horrible.
> Got fired and everything



I'm not denying that Loeb is a terrible director. The fact that they thought he was worth putting in charge of Marvel TV is just apalling.



Banhammer said:


> He shall forever be PNG but he has also made decisions that saved Marvel from bankruptcy into a billion dollar company.
> Even if he makes every character a puppy killing incestuous republican that listen to justin bieber, he'll still have done more good than harm.
> Asshole.



What's a PNG?

It seems like a "But you screw one goat" scenario, where he'll be better remembered for the bad stuff he did. I guess all the good stuff he's done is why he still has as much authority in the company.



Banhammer said:


> That's the general opinion. Tom Breevot justifies it by citing some obscure pannels that happened back when Ororo and T'chala were the only chocolate in marvel's oreo.
> But it's here now, and nothing horrible has happened anyway, and I was never even remotely invested in Forge or anything, so I'm all for it.



Again, I have no problem with them being married. If anything, I support it because of the crossovers it allows (See, Quesada, two people being married can result in more stories), but the fact that Brevoort is justifying it with some obscure story is just hypocritical. Black Panther and Storm are allowed to be married because of some random thing that happened back in the day, and yet despite Mary Jane being one of the most iconic members of Spider-Man's supporting cast, you think their marriage was forced? It's less of a matter of telling stories than it is Brevoort acting out against something he had a problem with back in the day. Then again, I would do the same thing if I worked at Marvel.



Banhammer said:


> 'm not sure what you mean



During Ends of the Earth, Spider-Man allowed Silver Sable to torture Sandman.



Banhammer said:


> It's not an exploitation, the man is just stuck in a loop.
> It's understandable, but I wouldn't buy a book two hundred dollars worth of comics drawn by an artist with no hands out of sympathy



Regardless, he's written enough stories for the sake of his son, so can't he just try and move on?



Petes12 said:


> They need something to fill in for new avengers, so it'll be astonishing



New Avengers is ending after AvX?


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 13, 2012)

With bendis leaving the avengers franchise im sure it is


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 14, 2012)

Reading AvsX I had a giggle fit when the black widdow pulls two revolvers from the inside of her anus


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 14, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> If that last one is true I hope Gillen leaves Marvel.
> 
> Getting saddled with Land, having to fit all of his X stories into an event (and STILL telling amazing stories), then getting booted off said franchise because of Bendis' seniority. Iron Man's a nice consolation prize, but this is ridiculous.



It's not just his seniority, I hope you realize.

Roger Stern's seniority at Marvel makes Bendis look like a hairless toddler and he's just making the odd Spider-Man and Captain America story nowadays.



Banhammer said:


> Reading AvsX I had a giggle fit when the black widdow pulls two revolvers from the inside of her anus



Good, a real weapon at last.


----------



## Cromer (Jun 14, 2012)

The revolver.


Never a better handgun.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 14, 2012)

The Bite of the She-Wolf said:


> It's not just his seniority, I hope you realize.
> 
> Roger Stern's seniority at Marvel makes Bendis look like a hairless toddler and he's just making the odd Spider-Man and Captain America story nowadays.



Not seniority so much as status within the company. Bendis is Bendis so he gets X - Men.


----------



## Parallax (Jun 14, 2012)

He gets it because it'll make X-Men the no.1 Franchise

which is probably what Marvel wants

I don't like it but it makes sense.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 14, 2012)

im not sure he has as much pull over readers anymore. but he does tend to bring some good ideas to the characters he takes over

that said, what would you want bendis to write if it were up to you?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 14, 2012)

The Bite of the She-Wolf said:


> It's not just his seniority, I hope you realize.
> 
> Roger Stern's seniority at Marvel makes Bendis look like a hairless toddler and he's just making the odd Spider-Man and Captain America story nowadays.
> 
> ...



But seriously

she wears a film thin spandex

Where does she keep them?

I mean, it shows her reaching to her butcheeks and pulls these two guns who can blow the fuck out limbo demon's skulls


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 14, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> im not sure he has as much pull over readers anymore. but he does tend to bring some good ideas to the characters he takes over
> 
> that said, what would you want bendis to write if it were up to you?



Probably spidey. The guy can write the crap out of spidey, regardless of universe.

Slott's concept was great (peter parker whose life is more than  ), but his execution dips from time to time.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 14, 2012)

After Spider-Men, we'll see if Bendis can handle the main Spider-Man book, although I think Bendis has said he doesn't want to write TASM. If Slott wants to keep writing Spider-Man, just put him on Avenging.

So can we agree that Cyclops is officially the Big Bad of Avengers vs. X-Men?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 14, 2012)

Depending on how you look at it, it seems that it will be going that way.

Still, nothing's happened yet other than him stopping a warzone


----------



## Bender (Jun 14, 2012)

Love how The Thing is able to beat NAMOR under water.


----------



## LIL_M0 (Jun 14, 2012)

Really? Cause I remember passionately hating that.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks to the Phoenix Five essentially becoming the main antagonists of the series now, I stand by my prediction that the Avengers would win because of their movie, although I guess it depends on how the X-Men teams react to the formation of the Phoenix Five. So yeah, this really is an X-Men event with the Avengers thrown in, because it's really more of a sequel to Schism, although if this is supposed to the latest installment in the series of events beginning with Disassembled, then it all comes down to the role the Scarlet Witch has to play.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 15, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> Thanks to the Phoenix Five essentially becoming the main antagonists of the series now, I stand by my prediction that the Avengers would win because of their movie, although I guess it depends on how the X-Men teams react to the formation of the Phoenix Five. So yeah, this really is an X-Men event with the Avengers thrown in, because it's really more of a sequel to Schism, although *if this is supposed to the latest installment in the series of events beginning with Disassembled*, then it all comes down to the role the Scarlet Witch has to play.



I wouldn't be falling for that again after the end of the Dark Reign.

I rather believe the Scarlet Witch guilt trips will continue for as long as writers have a memory of House of M that seeps into books, regardless of any overarching editorial plan that might or might not actually exist.


----------



## creative (Jun 15, 2012)

got back from reading spider-men. it's pretty great, even though it's a cocktease. I'm sorta mad I couldn't afford it but hulk of arabia had priority.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2012)

The Phoenix Five must be logan's wet dream because that's now five more people he he "has to stab through the gut for their own good" and then complain about how tortured he is


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2012)

Luke Cage can beat namor underwater but he can't bend steel bars

Fucking logic man


----------



## Bender (Jun 15, 2012)

@ Lil M_0

It's cuz of how Avengers vs X-men ignores logic which I despise although by getting heavily hammered is enjoyable.  

While sober I hate the holy hell out of it.

Also I'm curious did Marvel approve the educational degree of the schmuck who added a POLAR bear in Anartica in Avengers vs X-men issue 4?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 15, 2012)

Bender said:


> I'm curious did Marvel approve the educational degree of the schmuck who added a POLAR bear in Anartica in Avengers vs X-men issue 4?



They don't care about degrees because the readership at large doesn't respond to that specifically, and they don't care about the views of someone like Orson Scott Card when getting him on board to write something, either.

Welcome to comic books.


----------



## creative (Jun 15, 2012)

I think I still have sand in my eye. Leob's input on this event is actually good. like, 'watching sam and max for the first time good'. that fight with colossus and thing was really fun....did his son come back to life


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2012)

You liked the fight?

It was pretty, but very fucking horrible

Red Hulk Wank, stupid ideas, like throwing shit inside Collosus mouth, and fucking Communism symbols everywhere (wtf?)


----------



## creative (Jun 15, 2012)

those communism signs was the only thing that bugged me. barely noticed that actually. everything else fit okay much to my surprise.

hell I enjoyed most of the AvX versus. feels like a deer stuck in the headlights. I'm the deer. you ever catch that feel?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2012)

I couldn't help but notice
When you use the artist of the worst story line in the past ten years and then add so much red in it, you know it's gonna be shit

Also Tom Breevot is an imbecile


> The torture interrogation scene was so cliched in Avengers Assemble. Rusty pliers??? Torture doesn't even work; even as a psychological tool. Natasha and you guys should know better. Just a silly outdated scene.





> Sorry it didn't work for you



Spider-man, Steven Strange, Rogers and so many others have been resorting to torture and threat of torture lately, to the point where I begin to be really concerned, and all this imbecile has to say to fans is "sorry you don't like it"?


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 15, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I couldn't help but notice
> When you use the artist of the worst story line in the past ten years and then add so much red in it, you know it's gonna be shit
> 
> Also Tom Breevot is an imbecile
> ...


what's he supposed to do, the guy didn't even ask a question. all he did was criticize a book that brevoort isn't really allowed to offer an opinion on


----------



## Bender (Jun 15, 2012)

The only thing I've enjoyed about one of the AvX books I read was Wolverine clawing Cyclops. Not saying the X-men are wrong about being the only ones able to handle the Phoenix but I hate the way Scott brutalized Hope in the beginning of this event.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 15, 2012)

also wait what communism symbols?


----------



## Parallax (Jun 15, 2012)

The only thing worse than readin AvX is reading Banhammer's posts on AvX


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 15, 2012)

Parallax said:


> The only thing worse than readin AvX is reading Banhammer's posts on AvX



The only thing worse than reading banhammer's posts on AvX is reading parallax's posts on banhammer's posts on Avx


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2012)

The guy was being a dick, truly, but that doesn't mean he isn't bringing a valid point. It's not the first time in the short past where these concerns regarding torturing heroes have been raised, and a "sorry it didn't work for you" seems like the worse possible answer for  a topic that we're actually having real life problems with right now.



Petes12 said:


> also wait what communism symbols?



When Collossus is fighting the Thing.
When he's being "good" a red X shows up, when he's whining about Cytorakk, a hammer and a sickle show up instead in his thought box

It's really, really weirding me out.


----------



## Parallax (Jun 15, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> The only thing worse than reading banhammer's posts on AvX is reading parallax's posts on banhammer's posts on Avx



well played, well played


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2012)

Needless to say, Uncanny X-Men previews have me exploding with excitement as Sinister City is introduced to our world


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 15, 2012)

Just open a Brevoort Formspring thread already, I've never cared enough to save his answers but I've seen things.



Banhammer said:


> Spider-man, Steven Strange, Rogers and so many others have been resorting to torture and threat of torture lately, to the point where I begin to be really concerned, and all this imbecile has to say to fans is "sorry you don't like it"?



At the risk of recycling observations from elsewhere, since this hasn't been a single writer thing (Ellis and Bendis have done it that I'm aware of, and I heard a Spider-Man writer did it as well), I'm just going to accept it's an action/spy/thriller device that's been seeping into super-hero books.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2012)

It's you people's fault for introducing me to the joys of Formspring


----------



## Bender (Jun 15, 2012)

Weren't the Avengers more open to the act of torturing and killing villains than the Justice League in DC comics pre-New 52? They make the unscrupulous acts pulled by the JLA in Justice League: Cry For Justice look like school bullying.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 15, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> When Collossus is fighting the Thing.
> When he's being "good" a red X shows up, when he's whining about Cytorakk, a hammer and a sickle show up instead in his thought box
> 
> It's really, really weirding me out.



wtf  **


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm guessing, Loeb.


----------



## shit (Jun 17, 2012)

why is black fury and coulson in scarlet spider???


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 18, 2012)

aubro said:


> why is black fury and coulson in scarlet spider???



Because Chris Yost is the author of Scarlet Spider and Battle Scars.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 18, 2012)

And they're beautiful sons of a bitches, that's why


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 18, 2012)




----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 18, 2012)

and Black Nick Fury was born


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

So rumor has it Hickman might take over  Avengers.

And

Bendis might take over X-men and the Cosmic universe.


I'm ok with this.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> *Bendis might take over X-men*



​


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

Bendis's run of  ultimate X-men was good,and i bet he'd do a good job of getting them back to what worked.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> So rumor has it Hickman might take over  Avengers.
> 
> And
> 
> ...



I'm not. I want Bendis as far away from X-Men as possible...I wouldn't mind him going Cosmic, but i'd rather him focus on Powers than being put on X-Men


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 18, 2012)

Land vs. Larroca.

I'm not sure whose non-armored humans I prefer.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> I'm not. I want Bendis as far away from X-Men as possible...I wouldn't mind him going Cosmic, but i'd rather him focus on Powers than being put on X-Men



Bendis's writing style would work well with the X-men, id like to see which characters he fleshes out more which  c-Lister he tries to make more prominent, i am so sick of it being the Scott and Emma show in uncanny maybe he would fix that.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 18, 2012)

Bendis would be good with Scott Summers. All he has to do is write a good intentioned Norman Osborn
That however does not compare to the tragic loss that is the beauty of gillen on X-Men


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

Gillen's run has been Meh to me, I really hate what he did with sinister.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Gillen's run has been Meh to me, I really hate what he did with sinister.



Really? Why? I kinda like Sinister as a Victorian Dandy.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Gillen's run has been Meh to me, I really hate what he did with sinister.



what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Really? Why? I kinda like Sinister as a Victorian Dandy.



that was all too out in the open for him, to over the top. i can see why some liked it  but  to me it just didn't work with what i know and like about the character as a villain.

It would be like if Doom started robbing Banks, or Sabertooth Ran For President, or Ousbourne wanted to become the new IronFist


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 18, 2012)

Whew, for a second there I thought we were going to have to treat accepting bendis into x-men like a valid opinion


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 18, 2012)

Nathaniel Essex is a distinguished gentleman!


----------



## Es (Jun 18, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck



Agreed. Burn the heretic


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 18, 2012)

Gillen made AvX worth reading 

I am also looking forward to what Bendis will bring to the table


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 18, 2012)

What's worse than creative team shuffle rumor reactions?

Speculators and coupon abusers.



friend! I'd be angrier if that was volume 1 which is the one I missed.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> that was all too out in the open for him, to over the top. i can see why some liked it  but  to me it just didn't work with what i know and like about the character as a villain.
> 
> It would be like if Doom started robbing Banks, or Sabertooth Ran For President, or Ousbourne wanted to become the new IronFist



Or the new Iron Man?


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 18, 2012)

If it'd been fraction turning x-men over to bendis i'd probably be pretty positive about it, i'm interested in seeing how fraction handles the x-men. the only reason it's bad is we lose gillen


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> Or the new Iron Man?


 Ousbourne was already a tech based villian, and he was directly taking  Starks  job, that was a natural and very well pulled off premise



Petes12 said:


> If it'd been fraction turning x-men over to bendis i'd probably be pretty positive about it, i'm interested in seeing how *fraction *handles the x-men. the only reason it's bad is we lose gillen



you mean bendis?


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 18, 2012)

yeah oops, fraction doesnt need to come back to xmen


----------



## shit (Jun 18, 2012)

it'd be like if doom openly declared war, or sabretooth killed a politician, or osborn became the new iron man

just because it's out in the open doesn't mean it's pants on head retarded, zen


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

aubro said:


> it'd be like if doom openly declared war, or sabretooth killed a politician, or osborn became the new iron man


That's  a stupid analogy all those things are things that belong with in the established Modus operandi of the characters.

Sinister has always relied on patience , subterfuge, and secrecy, one of his greatest strengths is that he was a under the radar villain, the only ones aware of him were the X-men and that  afforded him freedoms with his research and evil doings. Turning him into a "look at me" villain is a mistake in  my opinion.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> That's  a stupid analogy all those things are things that belong with in the established Modus operandi of the characters.
> 
> Sinister has always relied on patience , subterfuge, and secrecy, one of his greatest strengths is that he was a under the radar villain, the only ones aware of him were the X-men and that  afforded him freedoms with his research and evil doings. Turning him into a "look at me" villain is a mistake in  my opinion.



That with your earlier comment about Gillen not being God Incarnate is why you will never be cool


----------



## Es (Jun 18, 2012)

I wonder if Dark Horse could nab KG. I would like to see him or Gage on SW


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 18, 2012)

Es said:


> I wonder if Dark Horse could nab KG. I would like to see him or Gage on SW



Don't know about Dark Horse, it be nice to see him write some of the Star Wars stuff...but to be honest if he ever left Marvel i'd see him either going to DC or Image


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Bendis's run of  ultimate X-men was good,and i bet he'd do a good job of getting them back to what worked.



Uh, he wrote a _different version_ of the X-Men back in 2005. I have the volume. It's good, but he's changed lot since then, and the writing Ultimate Universe is a whole different thing from 616.

It's his modern work that I'm looking at, and hasn't been able to write a team book for a while now. I don't mind him with a single hero, but his Avengers are exactly why he should take a break from teams for a while.



Zen-aku said:


> that was all too out in the open for him, to over the top. i can see why some liked it  but  to me it just didn't work with what i know and like about the character as a villain.
> 
> It would be like if Doom started robbing Banks, or Sabertooth Ran For President, or Ousbourne wanted to become the new IronFist



Yeah, it'd be like putting the Joker in bad grease paint, having him use regular bombs and talk about anarchy and stuff. You could only fuck it up more if you got that guy who played a gay cowboy. 

And yeah, none of your comparisons reach because it really _does_ fit him: his views on genetics are rather remarkably Victorian in the first place. It was _already_ in his background, and frankly it makes a huge amount of sense.  I love the idea that he's a genetic imperialist of sorts; it's such a great take on him. It's frankly one of the best redesigns and refocusings that I can remember, both as a character and visually (SO much better).



Banhammer said:


> Bendis would be good with Scott Summers. All he has to do is write a good intentioned Norman Osborn
> That however does not compare to the tragic loss that is the beauty of gillen on X-Men



So it'd be Bendis writing Cyclops as Norman Osbourne as Warren Ellis would write him? Why do I feel like cloning an imperfect clone is a horrible idea?

Edit: Not his "Modus Operandi"? He merged with the fucking Dreaming Celestial. Just because he's normally a subterfuge guy doesn't mean that he can _never_ do flashy things. That's fucking stupid. What he does is basically him creating paradise for himself. There's no _need_ to be quiet about that.

And it does not fit Norman Osbourne's _modus operandi_ to become Iron Patriot. It was an evolution of his character, far away from what he once was. Just because he still works out in the open does not mean that it's far away from what the character would traditionally do.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> That with your earlier comment about Gillen not being God Incarnate is why you will never be cool


 i'm fine with that id rather have my own opinion.



Guy Gardner said:


> Uh, he wrote a _different version_ of the X-Men back in 2005. I have the volume. It's good, but he's changed lot since then, and the writing Ultimate Universe is a whole different thing from 616.
> 
> It's his modern work that I'm looking at, and hasn't been able to write a team book for a while now. I don't mind him with a single hero, but his Avengers are exactly why he should take a break from teams for a while.


 2005 isn't modern? and new avengers is still  a good book.





> Edit: Not his "Modus Operandi"? He merged with the fucking Dreaming Celestial. Just because he's normally a subterfuge guy doesn't mean that he can _never_ does flashy things. That's fucking stupid. What he does is basically him creating paradise for himself. There's no _need_ to be quiet about that.


 that plot would of worked better for  like the High Evolutionary,Not Sinister.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> 2005 isn't modern? and new avengers is still  a good book.



2005 was 7 years ago (Though it certainly doesn't feel like it). A lot of time has passed and Bendis' writing on team books (to me) has taken a noticeable drop in quality.

We will simply have to agree to disagree with New Avengers and leave it at that.



> that plot would of worked better for  like the High Evolutionary,Not Sinister.



See, I see it more as the character capitalizing on a unique opportunity. Similar to Norman Osbourne and HAMMER. I mean, so much of that fits Lex Luthor more than it ever did Norman Osbourne, but it still works out despite being so far away from the original character concept.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> See, I see it more as the character capitalizing on a unique opportunity. Similar to Norman Osbourne and HAMMER. I mean, so much of that fits Lex Luthor more than it ever did Norman Osbourne, but it still works out despite being so far away from the original character concept.



With  Osborne though their was allot of build up to it.

Sinister just suddenly shows up back in male body ready to basically reveal him self to the hole world after centuries of working int he shadows in the most flamboyant and hammy way possible.



> 2005 was 7 years ago


 So was Civil war and House of M but those are still Modern Stories.


----------



## creative (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm actually pretty cheerful about bendis writing x-men. contrary to popular belief their are still people who actively work in marvel right now that can turn X-men into utter shit.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 18, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> With  Osborne though their was allot of build up to it.
> 
> Sinister just suddenly shows up back in male body ready to basically reveal him self to the hole world after centuries of working int he shadows in the most flamboyant and hammy way possible.



There wasn't really much build-up to Osbourne taking over the entire Initiative, though. He ran the Thunderbolts, and suddenly he ends up getting Nick Fury's job? That's a _massive_ leap, and with much larger consequences overall: you've got a guy who has gone from schizophrenic leader of a team of villains working for the US Government (and on a tight lease) to a guy who runs every superhero team in the US and S.H.I.E.L.D.



> So was Civil war and House of M but those are still Modern Stories.



I meant "recent". His recent works have done nothing to give me faith in what he can do now.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 18, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> There wasn't really much build-up to Osbourne taking over the entire Initiative, though. He ran the Thunderbolts, and suddenly he ends up getting Nick Fury's job? That's a _massive_ leap, and with much larger consequences overall: you've got a guy who has gone from schizophrenic leader of a team of villains working for the US Government (and on a tight lease) to a guy who runs every superhero team in the US and S.H.I.E.L.D.


 i see it more like, him becoming a public figure in spider man > Working for the government > Doing really well at his job > Creates an opportunity for big ass Promotion> Gets big ass promotion. thats a conssiten Point A To point B.

Where as sinister just feels completely random and ooc to me.






> I meant "recent". His recent works have done nothing to give me faith in what he can do now.


 And i think X-men [Mostly Uncanny] Is in need of a fresh vision, the kind that Bendis always brings.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> i see it more like, him becoming a public figure in spider man > Working for the government > Doing really well at his job > Creates an opportunity for big ass Promotion> Gets big ass promotion. thats a conssiten Point A To point B.



No, it's a huge jump. Your example fails to account for the size of the promotion, which is absurd; he goes from managing a single meta-team of criminals (because he himself was a criminal) to managing _all superpowered teams in the US_, as well as _all of S.H.I.E.L.D._



> Where as sinister just feels completely random and ooc to me.



It doesn't to me. It's him taking advantage of an opportunity, thus there's no need for subterfuge.



> And i think X-men [Mostly Uncanny] Is in need of a fresh vision, the kind that Bendis always brings.



Yeah, you can keep thinking that. Frankly, I think Gillen is writing the best stuff at Marvel now, and it's one of the few books I'm buying from them.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> No, it's a huge jump. Your example fails to account for the size of the promotion, which is absurd; he goes from managing a single meta-team of criminals (because he himself was a criminal) to managing _all superpowered teams in the US_, as well as _all of S.H.I.E.L.D._


 That is  still a  major position of leadership and law enforcement [remember the thunderbolts were a state team] and his promotion was because during a time of war he excelled where the current military leadership failed hard.





> It doesn't to me. It's him taking advantage of an opportunity, thus there's no need for subterfuge.


the sinister i know would of taken advantage with out  revealing himself to the entire world.





> Yeah, you can keep thinking that. Frankly, I think Gillen is writing the best stuff at Marvel now, and it's one of the few books I'm buying from them.


 J.i.m is good I'll give you. shame he had to cross over with New mutants


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> That is  still a  major position of leadership and law enforcement [remember the thunderbolts were a state team] and his promotion was because during a time of war he excelled where the current military leadership failed hard.



He's a schizophrenic former super-criminal who managed a team of criminals. It doesn't matter if they were Colorado's team or not, just because he's done well during _one_ crisis does not mean you promote him to the head of _*everything*_. Making him a consultant, assistant director, or something else. At least when Lex Luthor became President he has the excuse that he hadn't actually gotten anything on his record and kept a good public face. Osborn is _known_ as the Goblin. I don't care how he covered things up, his MO should have stopped him at that level and no further.

Beyond that, it's far, far beyond his concept and his regular MO. It's build was minimal in terms of him going from a player on a team book to the _main villain of Marvel_ for a couple years. He's _never_ been that sort of player.

And yet you defend _this_, and are all "That's totally out of character!" for Mr. Sinister taking advantage of having a Celestial in his backyard and being a bit showy with it?



> the sinister i know would of taken advantage with out  revealing himself to the entire world.



He's created his own fucking world and used incredible powers to modify everything. Fuck, you act like he wouldn't use the Infinity Gauntlet if he got it. There's a time for subtlety, and there's a time flaunt what you've created.

But apparently the Norman Osborn you know was totally meant to run around in red, white, and blue Iron Man armor for the US government. Which seems further from the character's roots and traditions?



> J.i.m is good I'll give you. shame he had to cross over with New mutants



And Uncanny is better than that. _That's_ the sad part: Uncanny is the best thing Marvel is putting out, and they are moving him off the book for Bendis. Why not find Bendis something else to mess around with?


----------



## Es (Jun 19, 2012)

Max Fury with the Serpent Crown


----------



## creative (Jun 19, 2012)

Es said:


> Max Fury with the Serpent Crown


my body is ready.


also fuck incredible hulk and fuck backwards atlantian hicks drunk on mystic moonshine.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 19, 2012)

My internet is rather poor right now, so I can't see the picture. However, the title of that sure sounds like a Harry Potter book at first glance; I thought it said "the" instead of "with".


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> He's a schizophrenic former super-criminal who managed a team of criminals. It doesn't matter if they were Colorado's team or not, just because he's done well during _one_ crisis does not mean you promote him to the head of _*everything*_. Making him a consultant, assistant director, or something else. At least when Lex Luthor became President he has the excuse that he hadn't actually gotten anything on his record and kept a good public face. Osborn is _known_ as the Goblin. I don't care how he covered things up, his MO should have stopped him at that level and no further.
> 
> Beyond that, it's far, far beyond his concept and his regular MO. It's build was minimal in terms of him going from a player on a team book to the _main villain of Marvel_ for a couple years. He's _never_ been that sort of player.


 Osborne has always been evolving from his original concept, he wasn't even the same when they initially brought him back. it is More consistent as his primary goal for the longest time has been "Fuck with Spider man" "Grab as much Power as i can" also who else were they gonna promote to top cop, Fury was gone, Stark, Hill, Gyrich and Cooper had all had their chances and blown it, Osborne had excelled at his job and literally  saved the world.  He brought every thing stark brought to the table and  was the hardliner the public wanted at the time. The build up was  farther reaching then just the thunderbolts.





> And yet you defend _this_, and are all "That's totally out of character!" for Mr. Sinister taking advantage of having a Celestial in his backyard and being a bit showy with it?


 Yes because their was no build up as i said, and he had never Ever done any thing that flamboyant as before.




> He's created his own fucking world and used incredible powers to modify everything. Fuck, you act like he wouldn't use the Infinity Gauntlet if he got it. There's a time for subtlety, and there's a time flaunt what you've created.


 would he use it? of course, but he would use it  in "sinister" way hence his name, he would use it  subtly but to an astonishing effect. eliminate all evolutionary weakness in man kind. Create life for scratch and watch it infinetly grow  in all the ways he could imagine. not make a giant floating head of him self and concur an amusement park.




> But apparently the Norman Osborn you know was totally meant to run around in red, white, and blue Iron Man armor for the US government. Which seems further from the character's roots and traditions?


 you can't wrap your head around Osborne going out of his way to troll and agitate well known heroes not only for the hell of it but to also further other goals he has in the work?





> And Uncanny is better than that. _That's_ the sad part: Uncanny is the best thing Marvel is putting out, and they are moving him off the book for Bendis. Why not find Bendis something else to mess around with?


The fuck it is, I take it you aren't Reading Asm, Daredevil, USM, X-force, or Ihulk


but what ever every ones got their opinions, Uncanny is no where near the best book marvel is putting out, its not even the best X-book


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## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

I though you guys said O'Grady was dead


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 19, 2012)

lol zen

As if Bendis hasn't already ruined enough characters and you jump on Gillen? At least I can be objective in my cock-sucking


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> lol zen
> 
> As if Bendis hasn't already ruined enough characters


 He hasn't ruined shit 


> and you jump on Gillen? At least I can be objective in my cock-sucking


 I haven't "jumped" on him, i just don't like  uncanny, and sinister is one of the reasons, i Like J.I.M., It's Great, Uncanny is not, i'm not gonna pretend it is because i like J.I.M

you wan't to  see me "jump" on some one ill go into a rant about Gage or Fraction if you like, so you know for future reference.


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## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

And that is why you are irredeemably wrong


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

To be completely honest ban. You have a Glee signature. I don't give a damn what you think.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 19, 2012)

So what he has done for characters like Sentry and Hood have made them extremely popular, right?

Please. Whatever grief you have with Sinister is nothing compared to Bendis literally killing Sentry and making him one of the most unpopular comic book characters


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

time for some boots to asses

First of all I have a darren criss signature, star of a very potter musical, how to suceed in buisnes without even trying, co writer of me and my dick, co founder of Starkid production, and presidential performer. The fact that you look at one of our generations finest performers and can only spout 'lol glee' only further evidences your complete vaccum of quality radar.
Now if we were to ignore this gillen bashing comes from nothing more than pent up resentment you got since last time we boot to assed your bitch fit over scott summers and schism, and were to acknowledge this straw grasping of what fits or not on sinister, we would still have to shout on the seven winds about how wrong you are.
Sinister is a victorian bastard. He just is.
He was born in that age,  where the rise f the darwinism, and your an idiot if you want  to detach the mythos of evolution from the x franchise, was as much of a fashion as much as it was a scientific statement. Years passed, and genetic lordship nathaniel essex with his ridiculous wear became nothing but a lapdog to apocalipse, the 90s juggernaut which I guess a no taste like you would be a fan of, but the rest of the world quickly responded to with the proper ick, so much that when ultimate sinister came around, as a mad hobo, people actualy cheered for how much of a not lame weird ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) he was. 
So as anyone can see, theres is utterly no ground to your complaining other than a see through smokescreen over the known fact that a sumers book stomps over three wolverines


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## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

I mean, how could anyone ever forego that pinnacle of literature that was sinister having tits? How dare gloss over that far superior point of character development?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 19, 2012)

Zombie Sinister incoming? Or maybe Sinister will become an Avenger as well?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

maybe storm will be a fat piece of cow furniture he may need for trade


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 19, 2012)

You just made me laugh


----------



## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> That's  a stupid analogy all those things are things that belong with in the established Modus operandi of the characters.
> 
> Sinister has always relied on patience , subterfuge, and secrecy, one of his greatest strengths is that he was a under the radar villain, the only ones aware of him were the X-men and that  afforded him freedoms with his research and evil doings. Turning him into a "look at me" villain is a mistake in  my opinion.



you're quick to throw around insults, but I'm mature enough not to take your example

^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)

sinister unleashed a massive plan involving genetics and evolution, like he always does

your analogy was stupid in that doom never robs banks, osborn has nothing to do with iron fist, etc

the only difference is that sinister did it out in the open this time
but no his character does not revolve around hiding in a hole and never letting anyone hear his name


----------



## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

> Sinister is a victorian bastard, he was born in that age, where the rise f the darwinism, and your an idiot if you want to detach the mythos of evolution from the x franchise, was as much of a fashion as much as it was a scientific statement. Years passed, and genetic lordship nathaniel essex with his ridiculous wear became nothing but a lapdog to apocalipse, 90s juggernaut which i guess a no taste like you would be a fan of, but the rest of the world quickly responded to with the proper ick, so much that when ultimate sinister came around, as a mad hobo, people actualy cheered for how much of a not lame weird ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) he was. So as anyone can see, theres is utterly no ground to your complaining other than a see through smokescreen over the known fact that a sumers book stomps over three wolverines


rofl

two wolverines tho

I won't have you bad mouthing xforce, no matter how righteous your rant


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

I meant New  Avengers :33
Honest


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

*A genetic obsessed scientist with an overdeveloped sense of intellectual self indulgence, who has made his carrier obsessing over the summers genome, the T-O infected Cable, and the celestial technology powered Darwinic terrorist En Sabah nur after years of complementary research in telepathy and body transfer, develops a plan where he uses a techno-organic virus hive template to genetically perfect a race molded after himself that can be brought to life by taking advantage of an available celestial, who is also a member of the race that created the x-gene in the first place and tricking scott summers.*


Gee.

What an out of character cunt


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> The fuck it is, I take it you aren't Reading Asm, Daredevil, USM, X-force, or Ihulk
> 
> 
> but what ever every ones got their opinions, Uncanny is no where near the best book marvel is putting out, its not even the best X-book



You're saying that TASM is one of the best books at Marvel? I've seen Slott's run been as divisive as Bendis. One complaint about Ends of the Earth is that it was incredibly decompressed, something Bendis is notorious for.


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## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

He's got a point though.
Sinister being interesting, intelligent, engaging and charismatic is out of character for him.


And I get how a no taste would look at spider-man being above the remedial pot of shit it's been for years and think it's one of marvel's higher quality books


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## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

honestly USM is barely interesting these days


----------



## Es (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I though you guys said O'Grady was dead



I thought the same about Killer Shrike. Comics eh?


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 19, 2012)

Generally speaking I like Slott's run on Amazing. but I can't really call it one of the best books Marvel is putting out. it's good sure but it doesn't really rank in the same way X-Force, Venom and a few others do.

also yeah Ends of the Earth was a dissapointment all around


----------



## Es (Jun 19, 2012)

I wish the Dark Horse page had more activity


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## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

It takes something huge for me to branch out of marvel

Last time I did an expedition to DC, was to read Secret Six, Sinestro Corps Green Lantern and Rucka's wonder woman


Nowadays I only read Suicide Squad, and that's because I keep expecting it to turn into Secret Six


----------



## Es (Jun 19, 2012)

Please try Knight Errant. It's good, it's really really gud.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

What is it about?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

Tv tropes tells me it's about star wars

Good Lord. I am not going to even begin to hack away at star wars.
That thing induces more archive phobia than Homestuck and Sluggy Freelance combined


----------



## Es (Jun 19, 2012)

But...but John Jackson Miller


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

who should he remind me of?


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## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I though you guys said O'Grady was dead



he's presumed dead and replaced by an impostor last I saw


----------



## Es (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> who should he remind me of?



He did Iron Man. His shit is tight

The book itself isn't continuity heavy. I would suggest reading the novel if you want to read the second and third arcs though, as it introduces motives for the antagonists, introduces new ones and does quite a bit of world building


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

Well that explains the ant man body


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 19, 2012)

Sinister always looked like a pervert to me, the Oderus Urungus to the High Evolutionary's Raffi.



omg laser pew pew! said:


> lol zen
> 
> As if Bendis hasn't already ruined enough characters and you jump on Gillen? At least I can be objective in my cock-sucking



He hasn't touched the Blue Marvel. I cry foul. He's been safe in his readership at large ignored Marianas Trench corner of the MU for far too long.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

There seems to be something wrong, I can't find any electricity based powers related to blue marvel.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 19, 2012)

lol at calling asm better than uncanny x-men

i know im late. but yeah, uxm is the second best x-men book and it's drawn by land. that's how good it is. i thought sinister was great, and pretty much every other character thats appeared in the entire series too.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> There seems to be something wrong, I can't find any electricity based powers related to blue marvel.



Definitely not your average colored, Ban.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

At least his powers come from Black Matter


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> So what he has done for characters like Sentry and Hood have made them extremely popular, right?
> 
> Please. Whatever grief you have with Sinister is nothing compared to Bendis literally killing Sentry and making him one of the most unpopular comic book characters



nether of those characters where popular or well known till bendis started using them, Sentry was a poorly executed Mary sue, then he got turned into a delibratly fucked up up unlikable deconstruction of superheros.  

and yeah he did make the hood more popular,made  him a legitimate player, and bad ass.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

Yeah, let's all hear it for tigra rape.


----------



## Es (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Yeah, let's all hear it for tigra rape.



Or Hawkeye not knowing who the Leader was even though he fought him and was integral in beating him.

Or Jan being a characterised as a bimbo and bringing her on a team just to be killed off

ETC

I actually enjoyed his earlier stuff but it got repetitive after a while


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Osborne has always been evolving from his original concept, he wasn't even the same when they initially brought him back. it is More consistent as his primary goal for the longest time has been "Fuck with Spider man" "Grab as much Power as i can" also who else were they gonna promote to top cop, Fury was gone, Stark, Hill, Gyrich and Cooper had all had their chances and blown it, Osborne had excelled at his job and literally  saved the world.  He brought every thing stark brought to the table and  was the hardliner the public wanted at the time. The build up was  farther reaching then just the thunderbolts.



Saved the world _once_. The idea of putting a known super-criminal and schizophrenic is moronic and anyone could have told you how that was going to end up. Again, he's not Lex Luthor: He was an in-the-open supervillain. There's a glass ceiling that you can't break with his record. Making him the most powerful authority in the US outside of the President is stupid, no matter how you frame it.

And he's "always been evolving", but Sinister isn't allowed to? Bullshit. At least Sinister's plan actually came off as something the original Sinister would do. Osborn has gone far beyond what he was ever intended to do. That's fine to accept that, but that means you can't go calling bullshit on Sinister's relatively small change-up.



> Yes because their was no build up as i said, and he had never Ever done any thing that flamboyant as before.



And so? Has he ever had a chance to do something like this before?



> would he use it? of course, but he would use it  in "sinister" way hence his name, he would use it  subtly but to an astonishing effect. eliminate all evolutionary weakness in man kind. Create life for scratch and watch it infinetly grow  in all the ways he could imagine. not make a giant floating head of him self and concur an amusement park.



Yeah, that's bullshit. There's _*no need for subterfuge*_ when you've won like that. Similar here; he's got the grand experiment, there's no subtle way about it. You only use subterfuge _when you need it_, otherwise you are just using it _just to use it_, and that's moronic.

Also, "sinister" as a word doesn't have anything relating to subterfuge.



> you can't wrap your head around Osborne going out of his way to troll and agitate well known heroes not only for the hell of it but to also further other goals he has in the work?



I can, the problem is that you can't seem to wrap your head around a character doing something which fits his overall goals and background, but done in a slightly different way.





> The fuck it is, I take it you aren't Reading Asm, Daredevil, USM, X-force, or Ihulk



ASM? Really? Not even close. USM? Way too fucking slow and dull. Daredevil? Waid is ignoring the bullshit the character was put through before he got there, while Gillen is making it into an actual positive. X-Force? Meh? I haven't gone back to it after the shitty Captain Britain arc. Maybe I should, but Uncanny hasn't made me think of dropping it yet, and it's had to tie into AvX. Point: Gillen. And IHulk? Yeah, no. Not close. Even Land's consistent art is better than the 6 I saw on issue #2 for IHulk. 



> but what ever every ones got their opinions, Uncanny is no where near the best book marvel is putting out, its not even the best X-book



If it's not the best X-Book, it's _only_ because of Land's art. Gillen is easily writing the best stuff with the biggest handicap on the entire fucking staff, hands down.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> time for some boots to asses
> 
> First of all I have a darren criss signature, star of a very potter musical, how to suceed in buisnes without even trying, co writer of me and my dick, co founder of Starkid production, and presidential performer. The fact that you look at one of our generations finest performers and can only spout 'lol glee' only further evidences your complete vaccum of quality radar.


 I don't care what else hes done He may be talented,  but the show he is on is still shit.You  have a shit show in your signature, You are supporting shit. your oppion means shit.

If i had a Battelfield sig because i like Liam Neeson, id still expect to get shit because of it.



> Now if we were to ignore this gillen bashing


i wasn't bashing. Saying  i love one book  of  his but dislike another isn't bashing you 11 year old. grow the fuck up.



> comes from nothing more than pent up resentment you got since last time we boot to assed your bitch fit over scott summers and schism,


 Lol And here we go again, you never "put a boot  to  my ass" your arguments were shit and killed them easily, only guy gave a decent counter argument, you just shouted the same fallacies over and over, and refused to actually read the book just what you thought was in the book. The fact that your bringing up  old arguments in a desperate attempt to tell your self you some how won that, when it was clear Guy was the one saving your ass tells me all i need to know, its cute really. 



> and were to acknowledge this straw grasping of what fits or not on sinister, we would still have to shout on the seven winds about how wrong you are.


 its not straw grasping



> Sinister is a victorian bastard. He just is.
> He was born in that age,  where the rise f the darwinism, and your an idiot if you want  to detach the mythos of evolution from the x franchise, was as much of a fashion as much as it was a scientific statement. Years passed, and genetic lordship nathaniel essex with his ridiculous wear became nothing but a lapdog to apocalipse, the 90s juggernaut which I guess a no taste like you would be a fan of, but the rest of the world quickly responded to with the proper ick, so much that when ultimate sinister came around, as a mad hobo, people actualy cheered for how much of a not lame weird ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) he was.
> So as anyone can see, theres is utterly no ground to your complaining other than a see through smokescreen over the known fact that a sumers book stomps over three wolverines


 Yeah it has nothing to do with a it Being Scott's book, My dislike for scott never stopped me from enjoying an X-men comic i thought was good before, unlike you my  hatred/Love for a character doesn't consume my every waking breath , make me bias to the point  i cant have a real conversation with out  bringing up said disdain.

Now Sinister Did have a lull period no doubt, but he was great During Messiah complex and in Legacy and X-23, and there he was quintessential Sinister. The character has always been at his best and  unique because he isn't the Cliche old Mad scientist super villain. He is Low Fucking key. He is one of those guys that makes the world scarier cause you know hes out their   and because no one knows about him he can do what ever the shit he wants. He is a Puppet master, infinite patience, willing to manipulate  on  a variety of levels before if ever he decides to make his presence known. That is what  I personally loved about him as a villain. and that is why i did not Like Gillens "Look at me world" take on the character.

Now you can like that that's fine, that's what i said initially, i don't begrudge  you for liking that, I just  don't agree and have my own feelings on the matter, but the level of butt hurt anger out of you is fucking ridiculous, just because i have a god dammed opinion about how one of my favorite super villains should be handled. 

The Grasping at straws, straight up lying  about what i've said, The fallacies. just shameful all in all.

But i think its less that i have a different opinion from you, less that you think i'm bashing a writer you like when i obviously haven't, know its your earlier comment, shows that this is because you think I said it  just to slight  your man crush Scott summer, well you can rest easy in your Cyclops Pajamas, Like i said before its not about him. 



FYI That is how you put a boot to someones ass.  just so you know for the future.



Edit: Also i doubt you Read Wolverine ,WATXM so you saying Uncanny stomps them sounds like  a hypebol on your part.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Yeah, let's all hear it for tigra rape.


 She didn't get raped, Try reading a the fucking book for a change



Es said:


> Or Jan being a characterised as a bimbo and bringing her on a team just to be killed off



Jan was on the book for a year and a half before editorial demanded that she be killed off during SI, and she wasn't a bimbo, hell before they brought her in they had Stark state  how he felt she was the Greatest Avenger.




Guy Gardner said:


> Saved the world _once_. The idea of putting a known super-criminal and schizophrenic is moronic and anyone could have told you how that was going to end up. Again, he's not Lex Luthor: He was an in-the-open supervillain. There's a glass ceiling that you can't break with his record. Making him the most powerful authority in the US outside of the President is stupid, no matter how you frame it.


 But that was part of the brilliance of using the avengers history to his advantage, every time some one brought up his past he was able to point to Hawkeye, the Maximofs, the vision Ect. In the MU their were Clear Presidents set


> And he's "always been evolving", but Sinister isn't allowed to? Bullshit. At least Sinister's plan actually came off as something the original Sinister would do. Osborn has gone far beyond what he was ever intended to do. That's fine to accept that, but that means you can't go calling bullshit on Sinister's relatively small change-up.


 I have no problem with sinister Evolving, i loved AOA sinister, but he wen't there to fast, no build up no real explanation. had their been a proper build up i probably would of liked it better.





> And so? Has he ever had a chance to do something like this before?


 Powerful shit has come to earth before, i cant answer  no, because like i said  before this sinister had always been in the dark  keeping his presence secret till the best reveal, that make sit hard to keep track of.





> Yeah, that's bullshit. There's _*no need for subterfuge*_ when you've won like that. Similar here; he's got the grand experiment, there's no subtle way about it. You only use subterfuge _when you need it_, otherwise you are just using it _just to use it_, and that's moronic.


 for a guy with Sinisters patience and long term planning, are you really going to tell me the only way he could of used the celestial was in the matter he did



> Also, "sinister" as a word doesn't have anything relating to subterfuge.


 *sin?is?ter/ˈsinistər/
Adjective:	
Giving the impression that something harmful or evil is happening or will happen.
* To me that imply a lack of direct involvement, but lets not  argue about this.




> I can, the problem is that you can't seem to wrap your head around a character doing something which fits his overall goals and background, but done in a slightly different way.


 I can wrap my head around it easily, its about execution.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 19, 2012)

that's like when batman talked about how great booster gold is. obvious ploy to try and make readers respect a character that hasn't earned it.


killing wasp was a-ok with me.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> that's like when batman talked about how great booster gold is. obvious ploy to try and make readers respect a character that hasn't earned it.
> 
> 
> killing wasp was a-ok with me.



Booster Gold is Awesome  well he was...don't really like new 52 JLI


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> But that was part of the brilliance of using the avengers history to his advantage, every time some one brought up his past he was able to point to Hawkeye, the Maximofs, the vision Ect. In the MU their were Clear Presidents set



There's a difference in redeemed villains being on a team, and appointing redeemed villains to be head of _everything_ involving _superhumans_, as well as having the _most powerful and active law enforcement agency_ at your beckon call.



> I have no problem with sinister Evolving, i loved AOA sinister, but he wen't there to fast, no build up no real explanation. had their been a proper build up i probably would of liked it better.



Meh? I was fine with it as a reappearance. It showed exactly where he was going with the character rather than having to wait for a dozen issues for it. It was something that didn't require build and beautifully reestablished the character for the series.



> Powerful shit has come to earth before, i cant answer  no, because like i said  before this sinister had always been in the dark  keeping his presence secret till the best reveal, that make sit hard to keep track of.



To me, it seems like a shake-and-bake plan. All the subterfuge you want simply _isn't necessary:_ He already has the tools to merge with the Celestial. There's nothing more he needs. Take the shot while it's there.



> for a guy with Sinisters patience and long term planning, are you really going to tell me the only way he could of used the celestial was in the matter he did



What's the point in waiting for it when it's already there? You are complicating this unnecessarily: he doesn't need planning or subterfuge to do this. He already has the tools, why not just go for it while you have a chance? Patience is a virtue, but so is the ability to recognize an opportunity and take it.



> *sin?is?ter/ˈsinistər/
> Adjective:
> Giving the impression that something harmful or evil is happening or will happen.
> * To me that imply a lack of direct involvement, but lets not  argue about this.



Evil _is_ (or was) happening. Sinister can be on any scale, just as long as you know that it's coming when he's around. We can drop it, if you like.



> I can wrap my head around it easily, its about execution.



And I find that to be a lacking criticism. It seems perfectly in-character, well within the bounds of what he cares about and what he wants to do. Compared to Osborn, it seems barely a deviation by comparison.



Petes12 said:


> that's like when batman talked about how great booster gold is. obvious ploy to try and make readers respect a character that hasn't earned it.
> 
> 
> killing wasp was a-ok with me.



To be fair, I feel like Booster Gold has done a hell of a lot more than Wasp ever did.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 19, 2012)

Hating on Marvel Knights The Sentry?


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> There's a difference in redeemed villains being on a team, and appointing redeemed villains to be head of _everything_ involving _superhumans_, as well as having the _most powerful and active law enforcement agency_ at your beckon call.


 Stark has pulled some serious shit in the past and he got the job, Osborne had created the illusion he was cured and reformed for along time, so when he saved the world during  SI there was no reason not to give him the ball.






> To me, it seems like a shake-and-bake plan. All the subterfuge you want simply _isn't necessary:_ He already has the tools to merge with the Celestial. There's nothing more he needs. Take the shot while it's there.
> 
> What's the point in waiting for it when it's already there? You are complicating this unnecessarily: he doesn't need planning or subterfuge to do this. He already has the tools, why not just go for it while you have a chance? Patience is a virtue, but so is the ability to recognize an opportunity and take it.


 But with how carefull Sinster has been in the past, to me it seems he should of had a better plan for the X-men, i mean its not his first rodeo with them, it felt to short sighted for Sinister.

Your are right about the shake and bake thing, cause it doesn't feel well thought out, its not like the celestial was going any where it had been there for a long time. 






> And I find that to be a lacking criticism. It seems perfectly in-character, well within the bounds of what he cares about and what he wants to do. Compared to Osborn, it seems barely a deviation by comparison.


 when has Osborn not been about 1. Grab As much power as i can 2. Fuck up the lives of any one who resisted/ Pissed me off in the process.

Like i said before you can follow a trail to where Osborn was to where he is, you can't say the same for Sinster, who before his reappearance was in the body of a teenage girl (and where the Fuck is Ms. Sinister? )


----------



## Es (Jun 19, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> that's like when batman talked about how great booster gold is. obvious ploy to try and make readers respect a character that hasn't earned it.
> 
> 
> killing wasp was a-ok with me.



She was a founding Avenger and lead under Stern. But we all know you don't care for continuity so we'll move on


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 19, 2012)

Continuity is for Kurt Busiek and no one else.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Es said:


> She was a founding Avenger and lead under Stern. But we all know you don't care for continuity so we'll move on



ok  so out side of ... being there, can you name and any amazing  Jan moments?


I like Ultimate and EMH Wasp but 616 wasp never really impressed.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

Osborn evolving his character = Great

Nathaniel Essex evolving his character = Gay and against mythos

Ehl Oh El


----------



## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> But with how carefull Sinster has been in the past, to me it seems he should of had a better plan for the X-men, i mean its not his first rodeo with them, it felt to short sighted for Sinister.



yeah cuz sinister has beaten the x-men and taken the reigns of evolution so many times now


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Osborn evolving his character = Great
> 
> Nathaniel Essex evolving his character = Gay and against mythos
> 
> Ehl Oh El



Your lack of reading comprehension is astonishing as always ban.




> yeah cuz sinister has beaten the x-men and taken the reigns of evolution so many times now


 Sinister has gotten the better of the X-men plenty of times before hand, hell before the reboot of uncanny it was an entire issue of him predicting what summers would do.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

Being made a fool of by moronic argumentation, and historical quoting and citing
"Ah killed your arguments"

How I envy the wondrous fantasy that the mind of the fools must be


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Being made a fool of by moronic argumentation, and historical quoting and citing
> "Ah killed your arguments"
> 
> How I envy the wondrous fantasy that the mind of the fools must be



Need i Remind you that you were the one to bring up past arguments, trying to say you had given me some great defeat. You must have the same fact Checkers as Fox news.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

Alas, I have not the need to self validate on victories against easy fools

Burn little fool. Burn away with someone whose attention you're not beneath


----------



## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Sinister has gotten the better of the X-men plenty of times before hand, hell before the reboot of uncanny it was an entire issue of him predicting what summers would do.



but he never accomplished anything


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Alas, I have not the need to self validate on victories against easy fools
> 
> Burn little fool. Burn away with someone whose attention you're not beneath



Except that you clearly did, that's why your brought it up.

but go ahead scurry off, i'm done with you.




			
				aubro said:
			
		

> but he never accomplished anything


 That's Debatable. Sinister has always been about the furthering of his research, what limitations he could break how far he can go. In theory him wanting to make  every one a clone of him self would  be against his stated goals because that would lead to an evolutionary dead end, but i may just be reading to much into it.

in any case, what did he accomplish in uncanny at the end of it. other then damaging one of his greatest assets: his anonymity.


----------



## Es (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> ok  so out side of ... being there, can you name and any amazing  Jan moments?
> 
> 
> I like Ultimate and EMH Wasp but 616 wasp never really impressed.



Under Siege by Stern comes to mind


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Es said:


> Under Siege by Stern comes to mind



its been a while since i read that remind me.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 19, 2012)

Keep digging Zen, I'm sure you'll reach one of Mole Man's bases at this rate


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

Ironically, Sinister will return in the next issue of UXM


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

> Keep digging Zen, I'm sure you'll reach one of Mole Man's bases at this rate


 Digging?




Banhammer said:


> Ironically, Sinister will return in the next issue of UXM



Hopefully he will be toned the fuck down.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

Nope


whine moar


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Nope
> 
> 
> whine moar



That's just depressing


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 19, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Nope
> 
> 
> whine moar



Heh. I wonder if he has a prosporous business and trade with Mole Man down there


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

I wonder how he got so much white marble underground


----------



## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> That's Debatable. Sinister has always been about the furthering of his research, what limitations he could break how far he can go. In theory him wanting to make  every one a clone of him self would  be against his stated goals because that would lead to an evolutionary dead end, but i may just be reading to much into it.
> 
> in any case, what did he accomplish in uncanny at the end of it. other then damaging one of his greatest assets: his anonymity.



isn't it better for him to have shown himself and then be able to hide effortlessly without having to wring his hands over letting anyone see his face

I mean it's not like shield and the avengers don't know who he is already


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

aubro said:


> isn't it better for him to have shown himself and then be able to hide effortlessly without having to wring his hands over anyone seeing his face
> 
> I mean it's not like shield and the avengers don't know who he is already



i have never seen any thing to make me think he was on the Avengers and Sheilds radar.


----------



## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm sure the x-men told them about him


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

the time he sent his marauders to a warzone that wiped out an entire town?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

Scratch that, it was the purifiers


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

Additionally the Conversation Stark And Summers had after Messiah complex tells me Cyke didn't share all if any of the details.


----------



## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm sure wolverine spilled the beans


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 19, 2012)

> As a child, Nathaniel Essex traveled to Greenwich Park, South of the Thames, in London, and was amazed with the endless clean number of people, walking, what he believed to be, preordained paths for them. Essex believed that the sanctity and purity of it was heaven on Earth. Essex later became a biologist in 1859, Victorian England, who developed advanced theories on human evolution and was obsessed with Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution, though he felt Darwin and his contemporaries were shackled by too many moral constraints and that science was beyond morality. Dr. Essex dreamed of bringing the perfection of the evolution of the human race to the masses.





Amusing, it's all


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

^Was there a point to that?



aubro said:


> I'm sure wolverine spilled the beans



Maybe, But just because Wolverine has sided with the Avengers, i don't see him revealing all of The X-men's secrets or files.

Beast i could see doing it. but still like i have said  i haven't seen any thing to make me believe Sinsiter and the more subtle  villains are on the Avenges radar


----------



## shit (Jun 19, 2012)

I think you're reading too much into franchising myself, but who am I to knock someone's suspension of disbelief


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 19, 2012)

Bendis is perfect and has never written anything bad. Everything he has done is perfection incarnate and we are all low-ebb spawns for thinking otherwise


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Bendis is perfect and has never written anything bad. Everything he has done is perfection incarnate and we are all low-ebb spawns for thinking otherwise



Disassembled sucked.

Secret Invasion Sucked [though that's not entirely his fault]

The main Avengers book has suffered from the constant big events.

Unlike some people i can admit when one of my favorite writers messes up.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 19, 2012)

He has messed up but he hasn't ruined shit

Ok


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 19, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> He has messed up but he hasn't ruined shit
> 
> Ok



Its a rare event  that a writer ever  "ruins" some thing.

Look at one more day, It was a travesty but nothing was Ruined.

But in general your facetious comment is correct, He hasn't ruined a  fucking thing.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 20, 2012)

How much does Bendis pay you?


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 20, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> How much does Bendis pay you?



Oh so many ways to respond to this insipid bull shit.

i'm gonna  keep the course, and not risk getting banned.

1. Bendis is one of my favorite writers yes, But as I've already said, he isn't perfect.

2. Considering your  Butthurt  BS you spewed cause i Didn't Like automaticly like some thing gillen read, you are the last one to insinuate any sort of biased on my part, especially since I have already stated that he isn't a perfect writer, and he has written some duds.

3. Go fuck your self.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 20, 2012)

<3

You're cute. I love how you harp on day and night about Sinister being TERRIBLY WRITTEN by Gillen but you don't think what he did with Sentry or Hood was bad. Sentry was _interesting_ when Jenkins initially introduced him but then do you know who introduced him into the mainstream 616verse? Who would think it's a good idea to introduce someone rivalling Galactus and putting them on a New York Earth-based team? Everyone hates Sentry because he has done nothing except dissappoint and die except for the Molecule Man arc. Then he is killed by a lol helicarrier and lightning. Let me repeat that to you, Bendis spent the DA issues leading up to Siege writing Sentry as God but then kills him in the most insipid ways possible. As far as Sentry is concerned, he was only hated AFTER he was put on Mighty Avengers by you know who where Bendis would spend the most contrived ways of not just having Sentry two-panelling everyone.

And Hood? He became a generic supervillian that just wanted power and money. Vaughn at least had some depth when he created him but Bendis reduced him into a simpleton that became impotent without power and only wants more power. Doomwar is hated for a reason because in it Doom just wants POWER to become STRONG. Like holy shit, even fake Madara has a more interesting supervillian plan than that. 

Hood: Oh no I've lost Dormmamu! 
Loki: Here, have the Norn stones
Hood: On no I've lost the Norn Stones
Some Inhuman: Well Blackbolt who may or may not have been a skrull told me that he had an Infinity gem.......


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 20, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> You're cute. I love how you harp on day and night about Sinister being TERRIBLY WRITTEN by Gillen but you don't think what he did with Sentry or Hood was bad.


 Lets stop you right there with this fallacy, I never said it Was Terribly written, While  i do think uncanny  sucks, this in practicular? i never used such a  strong emotion , i Said that i didn't like it. 



> Sentry was _interesting_ when Jenkins initially introduced him but then do you know who introduced him into the mainstream 616verse?


 No he Wasn't Fucking interesting, he was an irritating as fuck marry sue. if you don't think he was already hated you must be nuts. 



> Who would think it's a good idea to introduce someone rivalling Galactus and putting them on a New York Earth-based team?


 Yes because they have never had gods and fucking eternals on the god damn team or any thing 




> Everyone hates Sentry because he has done nothing except dissappoint and die except for the Molecule Man arc. Then he is killed by a lol helicarrier and lightning. Let me repeat that to you, Bendis spent the DA issues leading up to Siege writing Sentry as God but then kills him in the most insipid ways possible.


He got hit by a Building sized torpedo with A Nuclear core then got Smote  by the god of Fucking Thunder, when he created an opening for them to kill him cause he knew he was to dangerous to live. Soooooo terrible.




> As far as Sentry is concerned, he was only hated AFTER he was put on Mighty Avengers by you know who where Bendis would spend the most contrived ways of not just having Sentry two-panelling everyone.


 Sentry was  hated before that, Also He did  for the most part 2 panel every one, He made Doom look like a bitch, He nearly killed Morgan le fay, Ultron had to go out of its way to distract him, he Fucking Pwnd Kang Like it was fucking nothing. He Beat the hell out of Thor and literally ripped Ares apart like he was Tissue paper. So he did fine

The major hate for the sentry was due to his back story and how Greg pak used him in WWH



> And Hood? He became a generic supervillian that just wanted power and money. Vaughn at least had some depth when he created him but Bendis reduced him into a simpleton that became impotent without power and only wants more power. Doomwar is hated for a reason because in it Doom just wants POWER to become STRONG. Like holy shit, even fake Madara has a more interesting supervillian plan than that.
> 
> Hood: Oh no I've lost Dormmamu!
> Loki: Here, have the Norn stones
> ...


 Simpleton? Please his Initial take over of The super villain racket in NA was great, he was smart, and effective, HE busted  the entire group out of jail by him self, and earned their loyalty, and put down any inkling of  disloyalty or betrayal

at the end of the day though he was a guy that came from nothing, he had real power and when he lost it he became a wreck, He was the little guy who was a fucking looser, then he got the power and respect, and got to sit at the table with Dr. Doom and the God of mischief ,that is interesting, his fall as an example of how power corrupts was great.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 20, 2012)

Yeah I'm done, there's enough of my blood on this brick wall


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 20, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Yeah I'm done, there's enough of my blood on this brick wall



What an Odd but apt metaphor.


----------



## shit (Jun 20, 2012)

you remind me of suigetsu, zen


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

MOLOID!
A GUN BOY, A GUN!


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

Also, Sinister founded London so he could have a private enclave in which to privately develop himself as a race, in it's full Victorian glory
Someone's entire argument has just been rendered retarded


With a secret plan worthy of hickman jizz


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 20, 2012)

Sinister had to change cuz Kishi copied him via Orochimaru


----------



## Es (Jun 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Also, Sinister founded London so he could have a private enclave in which to privately develop himself as a race, in it's full Victorian glory
> Someone's entire argument has just been rendered retarded
> 
> 
> With a secret plan worthy of hickman jizz



He also has the Phalanx, Scott, Gambit and Sabertooth Clones


----------



## sanx021 (Jun 20, 2012)

Avengers vs X-men #6 was good

So Cyke makes the world a better place but some how he is still in the wrong 

Beast is whining again


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

Now that's spoiling


----------



## sanx021 (Jun 20, 2012)

what it makes no sense to go and attack him the world is better no one is starving. Namor is creating clean water for the poorer nations and what do the avengers do they attack them it's almost like they want Scott to kill them


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

The difrence between act I and II is STAGGERING

The art is beautiful, to the point where some moments that would feel retarded under some people, under thing, feel truly epic and awe inspiring


*Spoiler*: __ 



 There is a moment where namor lifts a dozen aircraft carriers to the sky that had me shit bricks
And it was a minor one panel with no impact in the story 




The characters feel like they are doing what should naturally come to them, without breaking context with the story so far

Avengers are being consistent unconfoundable morons, but they are putting thought behind their actions and doubt about their decisions

And Scott is cracking, naturally, but he's doing so in all the good ways, without sacrificing that which we admire in him

And a couple of amazing epic moments, such as when he faces Thor

It was looking shaky there fore a moment with the scarlet witch, but other than that it was a very strong positive reaction from me.


----------



## Es (Jun 20, 2012)

I felt apprehensive at buying this at first but the art pulled me in and the improvement in writing sealed it


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

Lord Sinister is still amazing though

I have nothing against women....


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

Academy has me on mixed feelings
Emma is acting like someone whom we are meant to root against, but the academy is assembling to fight on the side of a gas chamber club house


----------



## Es (Jun 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Academy has me on mixed feelings
> Emma is acting like someone whom we are meant to root against, but the academy is assembling to fight on the side of a gas chamber club house



There have been good Sentinels before, and Juston's Sentinel hasn't really taken any action against the Mutant faculty at the Academy either.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 20, 2012)

wow that was like a totally different book


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

Es said:


> There have been good Sentinels before, and Juston's Sentinel hasn't really taken any action against the Mutant faculty at the Academy either.


Well, I'm a robophobe 




But yeah, now that you mention it, there was like an omega sentinel or something


This is really something that belongs on Danger's preview anyway.

I sense drama lama now.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

I mean, when she gave the Genoshan Sentinel sentience he was horrified by his actions and sacrificed his life to the Bullet in an attempt for redemption


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Jun 20, 2012)

everything in uncanny was beautiful


EDIT: what issue was that ban?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

Astonishing X-Men, by JossWhedon

Unless you mean Emma, then that's on the ongoing Avengers Academy


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Jun 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Astonishing X-Men, by JossWhedon


 That one, oh and I also got the AA issue today, it makes for a good moral dilemma, I personally have no problem with the sentinel being changed physically, is just that went she wanted to erase the A.I. that felt it was too much, since this particular sentinel is really not a danger to mutants (it lives with a few of them, and it was technically protecting them too) and I'm sure there are two or three sentinel that have worked with the x-men before,

 of course tho I understand the symbolic value it has, and I see why many would want it destroyed


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

I hate it that Pym didn't remember to transfer the sentinel's mainframe onto something else a little less holocaus-ty

Seriously guy? You can build a Iron Man mecha in five minutes, but the sentinel was ok?


----------



## Kanali (Jun 20, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> Avengers vs X-men #6 was good
> 
> So Cyke makes the world a better place but some how he is still in the wrong
> 
> Beast is whining again



This time he's finally using his whining powers for good though and whining about the Avengers still wanting to kill Scott after he makes the world a better place.

And as for the Sentinel, its obviously still a threat seeing as how it attacked Emma due to her being a mutant. Something could always happen that messes up the programming and suddenly you have a bloodthirsty genocide machine going nuts in the middle of a school. But yeah, like the others pointed out, its stupid that Pym couldn't just render it harmless by disabling all the weapons systems or moving the A.I. to another body.


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Jun 20, 2012)

Kanali said:


> And as for the Sentinel, its obviously still a threat seeing as how it attacked Emma due to her being a mutant. Something could always happen that messes up the programming and suddenly you have a bloodthirsty genocide machine going nuts in the middle of a school. But yeah, like the others pointed out, its stupid that Pym couldn't just render it harmless by disabling all the weapons systems or moving the A.I. to another body.


well the sentinel was freaking out, because of how insanely powerful emma was, and if I remember correct she was with the x-men group who went to the academy and no one was attacked then


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 20, 2012)

Just read UXM. Zenaku confirmed to be wrong.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 20, 2012)

AVx 6 was probably the best single issue out of the  whole event so far.

EDIT: New Avengers was great too, But then I'm  Biased when it comes to Iron Fist


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

Hank Pym assembles a team of kids who are not in immediate danger to fight against a god like being who just wants to burn a nazi toaster


I wonder how long until wolverine shoves plastic up everyone's asses


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I wonder how long until wolverine shoves plastic up everyone's asses



Someday.


----------



## Kanali (Jun 20, 2012)

Blackfeather Dragon said:


> well the sentinel was freaking out, because of how insanely powerful emma was, and if I remember correct she was with the x-men group who went to the academy and no one was attacked then



Still, it was supposed to be completely safe and this proves it isn't. Its prime directive is ultimately to destroy all mutants and this shows that if the perceived threat is great enough, it overrides all the other directives.


----------



## Es (Jun 20, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Hank Pym assembles a team of kids who are not in immediate danger to fight against a god like being who just wants to burn a nazi toaster
> 
> 
> I wonder how long until wolverine shoves plastic up everyone's asses



Emma's just persecuting the Sentinel for what it is not it's actions and the Sentinel interpreted it as a threat, same with Hybrid 

 Besides Juston's Sentinel was no where near Genosha to my knowledge he's clean, you never read the series? Besides Machine teen is more of a toaster here. The main antagonist in his series refereed to him as such 


> Still, it was supposed to be completely safe and this proves it isn't. Its prime directive is ultimately to destroy all mutants and this shows that if the perceived threat is great enough, it overrides all the other directives.


Exactly, a direct threat. Like something that can life-wipe planets or Alien Mutants capable of Magic that want to mind control students into being his thralls. It also seems the Sentinel is at least Semi Sentient from what I've seen in the series. I wish i had it on hand


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 20, 2012)

No Es, I mean, Danger has the power to give computers , self awareness
When she was in Genosha decided she needed a little backup to kick x-men ass so she awoke and gave the Genoshan Sentinel, the one that killed six million mutants, and convinced him to fight for momy
However, when kitty pryde phased inside the sentinel, she noticed Danger was blocking his memories of killing all mutants so she fried the blocks
As it turns out our mind is incapable of processing large numbers for their real meaning, you know, one death is a tragedy, a thousand is a statistic, but because of the robot brain of his, the sentinel was able to percisely grasp the impact of six million deaths on his consciounce, which drove him with so much regret he told danger to go screw herself and went off to cry in a corner until he sacrificed himself to try to save earth
Since then Danger declined to give any other machines self awareness because of her doubts of conflict, and that giving machines self awareness won't always ensure their loyalty.


----------



## Es (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh I caught that, I thought you meant something else the second time


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 20, 2012)

Winter Soldier was bamf. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



After all...this isn't the first bomb i've ridden.




So hilarious.


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 20, 2012)

enjoyed AvX and Uncanny X-Men this week, that Sinister city is pretty interesting and Gillen is just really good

about to check Secret Avengers, any other tie-ins I should read?


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 20, 2012)

I love how venom just panel by panel shits all over flash's life. It's funny at this point.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 20, 2012)

So new Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers is out this week

I'm not sure if I like the idea of Man-Thing being fully aware and sentient...also gotta a chuckle out of the Marquis of Death call back



Whip Whirlwind said:


> I love how venom just panel by panel shits all over flash's life. It's funny at this point.



It's going to be a shame to see Remender leave the book soon, because I love what he's done with Flash and the symbiote


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 20, 2012)

Michael Lucky said:


> enjoyed AvX and Uncanny X-Men this week, that Sinister city is pretty interesting and Gillen is just really good
> 
> about to check Secret Avengers, any other tie-ins I should read?



New Avengers, it explains the Iron fist stuff from AVX, and it seems to set up what spider-man's part in all this will be.


----------



## typhoon72 (Jun 20, 2012)

AvX #6 was fantastic. Where the fuck did this come from?

Infinite was A material as well.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 20, 2012)

Are we suddenly in bizarro world or something, because it's astonishing that this event can drag itself back out it's grave so easily


----------



## typhoon72 (Jun 20, 2012)

Marvel must have been trolling or something the first 5 issues.


----------



## creative (Jun 20, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> I love how venom just panel by panel shits all over flash's life. It's funny at this point.



feeling kinda bad for his girlfriend though. she's abit of a bitch, but she really shouldn't be in flash's world. which reminds me, now that venom and red hulk update on the same week, I can focus on the finer things in life...like catching up to pak's alpha flight. 



> AvX #6 was fantastic. Where the fuck did this come from?


it's because hickman makes everything magic according to marvel execs. my feels were slightly above "meh". this issue only did three things for me.
yearn for AVX versus #4
made me remember beast hates scott's gutts as well as logan. I'm still waiting for beast to go full asshole and expose x-force in the name of delicious drama
remembered why the last time I read x-men was issue 47 of astonishing


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 20, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Look at one more day, It was a travesty but nothing was Ruined.



I'll accept that One More Day was a story development, but considering how it dissolves the marriage because higher-ups at Marvel think that Spider-Man as a character would be ruined by being married, I'm curious how you think nothing was ruined.


----------



## Bender (Jun 20, 2012)

AvX #6 definitely shits on the first act of the crossover event. Iron Fist finally being done some justice in a crossover event brings tears of joy to my eyes.


EDIT:

I wish someone would punch beast in the face due to be such a goddamn drama queen.


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Jun 21, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Are we suddenly in bizarro world or something, because it's astonishing that this event can drag itself back out it's grave so easily


No man, that's hickman magic touch, he makes everything good, you should see his FF and Fantastic Four work, + they paired him with coipel, seriously is like the editors were actually trying to make this good




Whip Whirlwind said:


> I love how venom just panel by panel shits all over flash's life. It's funny at this point.


I just feel bad, if tomorrow they announced that flash and venom solo'ed both  avengers and x-men and the phoenix because of green rocks, I still would not be able to bring myself to call him a Gary stu


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> I'll accept that One More Day was a story development, but considering how it dissolves the marriage because higher-ups at Marvel think that Spider-Man as a character would be ruined by being married, I'm curious how you think nothing was ruined.



Did spider-man stop being successful book? no

Were there still Good stories? yes

Was there room left open for them to get together? yes

Did Peter take a hit character wise? Yes but then again he took 3 times as many during the clone saga and he manged to bounce back.

Like as every thing is now, its just a bad story that happened. 

Hell even the Ultimate Verse has manged to recover from Ultimatum,it took  time but they got their own little silver age going


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Bender said:


> AvX #6 definitely shits on the first act of the crossover event. Iron Fist finally being done some justice in a crossover event brings tears of joy to my eyes.


 I've  Liked this event from start to finish, but yea best issue so far. Interesting moral questions and quandaries being raised on both sides




> EDIT:
> 
> I wish someone would punch beast in the face due to be such a goddamn drama queen.


It's what he dose. *shrugs*


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 21, 2012)

In light of the whole Mister Sinister debate, let's see what Gillen has to say about what he's doing with the character.





Zen-aku said:


> Did spider-man stop being successful book? no
> 
> Were there still Good stories? yes
> 
> ...



So what your saying is that it didn't ruin it because the book can still bounce back? I can accept that. The thing is, how many of those good stories would have been impossible with the marriage? As for the chance of them getting back together, yes, it's still there, but Marvel seems to love dancing around that actually happening. Even Slott said that those who want it back will get what they want, but not in the way the want it.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Phantom Roxas said:


> So what your saying is that it didn't ruin it because the book can still bounce back? I can accept that. The thing is, how many of those good stories would have been impossible with the marriage? As for the chance of them getting back together, yes, it's still there, but Marvel seems to love dancing around that actually happening. Even Slott said that those who want it back will get what they want, but not in the way the want it.



I''m sorry but I don't think i have even Implied that i liked OMD, think it should of happened, or think it shouldn't be Retconed as soon as possible.  OMD was an Abomination pure and simple, it just didn't "Ruin" Spider-man Hell Clone saga was worse because that was issue upon issue of bs, OMD was like a flue shot




> In light of the whole Mister Sinister debate, let's see what Gillen has to say about what he's doing with the character.


 he can say what he wan't i still don't like it, and hope he or some one else will go back to the characters roots in 3 years or so.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

One More Day didn't ruin spider-man stories, the pathetic mockery of seventies re-hash of stupid or outdated gags, incomprehensible plots and "ermergerd mah web fruid" ruined spider-man stories
I mean Jackpot? What the fuck were they thinking

That and the fact we couldn't scrub off our brains that peter was a satanist

Under Slott Peter is much more bearable, even if he does have his torturing spider-man moments that are just "Wtf, hero"


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> New Avengers, it explains the Iron fist stuff from AVX, and it seems to set up what spider-man's part in all this will be.



New avengers is bittersweet to me. I like the focus on Fist, but i hate that they retconned IIF what with Yu Ti being around.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

"Are you threatening me .. with weather?" ?_?


I confess, the fanboy inside of me got a bit giddy at that moment


----------



## Bender (Jun 21, 2012)

Scott actually sounded badass in #6 and not trying to mix badassery with douchebaggery this time around. The calmness mixed with showing off his unlimited power was GAR.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> I''m sorry but I don't think i have even Implied that i liked OMD, think it should of happened, or think it shouldn't be Retconed as soon as possible.  OMD was an Abomination pure and simple, it just didn't "Ruin" Spider-man Hell Clone saga was worse because that was issue upon issue of bs, OMD was like a flue shot



I didn't think you liked it, I was just saying that I understand what you meant by how it didn't ruin Spider-Man. The Clone Saga was, to put it simply, a mess. Reminds me that I need to read The Life of Reilly.


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> he can say what he wan't i still don't like it, and hope he or some one else will go back to the characters roots in 3 years or so.



honestly, I think most people here don't have so much an objection to your opinion on how sinister should be treated, but your denial that anything else could be good no matter what anyone says or how it develops


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

I hope they one day will stop butchering Wolverine's character and bring him back to his roots of being an evolved strain of an actual forest animal


----------



## Parallax (Jun 21, 2012)

You'd still hate him


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Yes, but he'd be "true to his character", which I clearly know all about.

I mean who the fuck do the writers think they are, giving him back his memories and shit
A wolverine that doesn't whine about his amnesia every five minutes is a wolverine I want no part of thank you very much


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 21, 2012)

speaking of, clearly cyclops was better when he was just wolverine's bitch that he pushed around and stole girlfriends from


----------



## Parallax (Jun 21, 2012)

but don't tell Ban that he wont believe you


----------



## Bender (Jun 21, 2012)

I hate how Cyclops has the edge over Wolverine now.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 21, 2012)

What happened to his mask whiskers.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 21, 2012)

Parallax said:


> but don't tell Ban that he wont believe you



i don't believe it either


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Jun 21, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I like that when cap suggested arresting the x-men I.M. stopped him, this what happen when you don't listen to the guy who has being doing this before all of you were born, that being said wolverine saying Avengers Assemble,  got to be one of his best panel


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 21, 2012)

Amazing. Uncanny is unsurprising at this point, but AvX really knocked it out of the park. It's such a stark difference from "THERE IS ONLY PvP" to "Let's explore this concept on a big stage" that it's just astounding. I saw people raving about it and I didn't want to believe it... but man if it didn't stick the landing perfectly.

It's just wonderful to see what the hell they are actually fighting for rather than seeing them fighting constantly. It also makes me wonder if we needed 5 issues previous to this one instead of, say, one or two? If the event was buoyed by this early on, I'd think that orders would be fucking _staggering_.

It is rather funny to see the Avengers stubbornly continuing on and poking the dragon for no other reason than to piss it off. Beast and Black Panther saying "Whoa, we are going to try and fuck around with the guys giving us free food, water, and power?" should be a fucking wake-up call, but apparently Cap is too stubborn to realize how fucking wrong he is. Oh well.

And remember when Sinister was better as a guy who planned out ineffectual long-term schemes and wore a costume that looked like the colorist painted Hawk black by mistake?

Yeah, me neither. That entire issue was fucking amazing. Sinister has literally  on Gillen's run. Still my favorite book in Marvel, and frankly I think it's probably the best one as well.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 21, 2012)

The avengers aren't really wrong either though. Jean Grey started off as good too with the phoenix. But sooner or later the host's intentions aren't going to matter, it's going to try and kill everything

Btw I  think it's fair to say that part of the huge turnaround is just the artist change. Every previous issue has been well assigned to a writer's strengths just like this one was, but they were all saddled with JRJR who apparently can't make anything dramatic or awe inspiring or cool


----------



## Es (Jun 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I hope they one day will stop butchering Wolverine's character and bring him back to his roots of being an evolved strain of an actual forest animal



I thought getting his shit pushed in by Skaar was the truest his character has been for a while


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 21, 2012)

Why do they have to keep giving Coipel work.

Just when I think I am out... they pull me back in.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 21, 2012)

answered your own question


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Jun 21, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Amazing. Uncanny is unsurprising at this point, but AvX really knocked it out of the park. It's such a stark difference from "THERE IS ONLY PvP" to "Let's explore this concept on a big stage" that it's just astounding. I saw people raving about it and I didn't want to believe it... but man if it didn't stick the landing perfectly.
> 
> It's just wonderful to see what the hell they are actually fighting for rather than seeing them fighting constantly. It also makes me wonder if we needed 5 issues previous to this one instead of, say, one or two? If the event was buoyed by this early on, I'd think that orders would be fucking _staggering_.
> 
> ...


This could set out to be Gillen's very own dark angel saga, that plus remender and aaron working together to do something with genesis that could go in WatXM and the X-books would be on fire


----------



## Bender (Jun 21, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> The avengers aren't really wrong either though. Jean Grey started off as good too with the phoenix. But sooner or later the host's intentions aren't going to matter, it's going to try and kill everything
> 
> Btw I  think it's fair to say that part of the huge turnaround is just the artist change. Every previous issue has been well assigned to a writer's strengths just like this one was, but they were all saddled with JRJR who apparently can't make anything dramatic or awe inspiring or cool



THANK YOU

This is what I've been trying to say but I wasn't able to get the words out of my mouth.


----------



## sanx021 (Jun 21, 2012)

Rachel controlled it and didn't lose control. Jean had control of the phoenix until mastermind messed around with it most times the phoenix loses control it's due to outside interference


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

I dislike the Watxm preview because it keeps trying to play up the morals of one side in all the hypocritical ways

Logan talks to rachel as if her tracking him down was some great betrayal to Jean Grey, while he had her tracking Hope down two issues ago




There are so many decent things you can attack the Phoenix Five on and they go always for the most retarded pot shots possible

One of the things I have now become excited for is to see my clearly favorite team right now being challenged on those very issues.

But nope. Low level preaching of empty pre-made slogans and other commonplace.



I'm going to read Journey Into Mystery (OH MY GOD HE'S GOING AMERICAN GODS ON OUR ASSES) UXM and AvX/Infinity another couple of hundred times now


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Which is something we are not talking nearly enough about

MANCHESTER GODS


----------



## Bender (Jun 21, 2012)

sanx021 said:


> Rachel controlled it and didn't lose control. Jean had control of the phoenix until mastermind messed around with it most times the phoenix loses control it's due to outside interference



Ahem, phoenix Ensong?


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Whip Whirlwind said:


> New avengers is bittersweet to me. I like the focus on Fist, but i hate that they retconned IIF what with Yu Ti being around.



I Belive they say the its The thunderer under the  Yu Ti Robe now




			
				aubro said:
			
		

> honestly, I think most people here don't have so much an objection to your opinion on how sinister should be treated, but your denial that anything else could be good no matter what anyone says or how it develops


 i never said it couldn't be good, i just don't like how its been handed, i feel i have been clear with that.



			
				Guy Gardner said:
			
		

> It is rather funny to see the Avengers stubbornly continuing on and poking the dragon for no other reason than to piss it off. Beast and Black Panther saying "Whoa, we are going to try and fuck around with the guys giving us free food, water, and power?" should be a fucking wake-up call, but apparently Cap is too stubborn to realize how fucking wrong he is. Oh well.


 Cap Fucked up with attacking Utopia, but you can't blame him for wanting a Safety net, shit like this never ends well.


----------



## sanx021 (Jun 21, 2012)

Bender said:


> Ahem, phoenix Ensong?



That was the Shi'ar that caused that


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

I like it that when thor came back, Tony was going to force him to register.
He disagreed, hilariously.
Then he went "alright, buddy, alright, I'm sorry, here have diplomatic immunity, just stop hurting me now"


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 21, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> The avengers aren't really wrong either though. Jean Grey started off as good too with the phoenix. But sooner or later the host's intentions aren't going to matter, it's going to try and kill everything



But that _doesn't_ always happen. Like it was said before, when people mess with the Phoenix, things turn bad. I think the Infinite comic with Cyclops showed this well enough: emotion is amplified to horrifying extents.



> Btw I  think it's fair to say that part of the huge turnaround is just the artist change. Every previous issue has been well assigned to a writer's strengths just like this one was, but they were all saddled with JRJR who apparently can't make anything dramatic or awe inspiring or cool



Definitely part of it, though the writing on the previous issues was rather horrid. When you stretch out a battle royale into 5 issues, it's going to end badly. If this were 6 issues and this were issue two or three (and it might as well be), I'd be less frustrated than I currently am.



Zen-aku said:


> Cap Fucked up with attacking Utopia, but you can't blame him for wanting a Safety net, shit like this never ends well.



It's fine to be wary, but there's a difference between "Well, let's get a safety net" and "I don't care what they are doing, we are still in the right." The whole point of what Beast and Panther were saying was that they haven't really changed views or strategies; they are treating it like they have from the beginning. I mean, they are in another ideal place to talk it out and the Avengers can't seem to do that.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> It's fine to be wary, but there's a difference between "Well, let's get a safety net" and "I don't care what they are doing, we are still in the right." The whole point of what Beast and Panther were saying was that they haven't really changed views or strategies; they are treating it like they have from the beginning. I mean, they are in another ideal place to talk it out and the Avengers can't seem to do that.



Last time Cap tried to talk things  out he nearly got killed, can't blame him for thinking now that they are gods, and acting like gods his voice will  fall on deaf ears. Also i didn't get the feeling that Cap was in a Firm I'm Right Stance, he is just preparing for the shit to hit fan

Cap Should of handled the Hope Extraction this time differently though, that was just a bad move all around, he should of Sent in the vision to talk with her and get her out with out a kaboom, But i Guess Hickman needed an Excuse to kick Scott the rest of the way off the slippery slope.


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> i never said it couldn't be good, i just don't like how its been handed, i feel i have been clear with that.



well it is good and well written right now
I would personally feel nice inside if you admit that


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

aubro said:


> well it is good and well written right now
> I would personally feel nice inside if you admit that



I would be lying. I Don't believe it is, or feel it is, so me saying it would just be words.

If you really wan't me too ill Lie to you, but i don't see the point in doing so.


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

are you saying I'm lying?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> Last time Cap tried to talk things  out he nearly got killed, can't blame him for thinking now that they are gods, and acting like gods his voice will  fall on deaf ears. Also i didn't get the feeling that Cap was in a Firm I'm Right Stance, he is just preparing for the shit to hit fan



Last time he went to talk he didn't call ahead and brought a Helicarrier with the entire Avengers roster on-board. But we've gone over _that_ enough times...


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

aubro said:


> are you saying I'm lying?



I'm Saying you have an opinion, that i don't agree with and Vice Versa.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Last time he went to talk he didn't call ahead and brought a Helicarrier with the entire Avengers roster on-board. But we've gone over _that_ enough times...



And None of that was out of line, considering the Time frame, and Scott's past actions. But your right lets not.

Lets talk about some thing Positive.

How awesome would it be if this Event ended with Phoenix Cyclops vs Cap with  the Infinity Gauntlet?


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> I'm Saying you have an opinion, that i don't agree with and Vice Versa.



are you saying the quality of the book is completely subjective to the person who's reading it?


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> How awesome would it be if this Event ended with Phoenix Cyclops vs Cap with  the Infinity Gauntlet?



1/10 awesomes


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

aubro said:


> are you saying the quality of the book is completely subjective to the person who's reading it?



Yes. Just because u think its great doesn't mean every one else dose, not a hard concept.


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

it's a wrong one tho, yo

it implies that there is no art to literature, that liking it is completely random, like someone's favorite color


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

it implies that there is no art to literature, that the quality of it is completely random, like someone's favorite color


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

aubro said:


> it's a wrong one tho, yo


 and That's your opinion , see were going around in circles. 

Example you don't think Phoenix Cyclops vs Cap with the Infinity Gauntlet is awesome, I think your wrong. And while you may have valid reasons  for thinking that, I'll still think your wrong. because that is  My opinion.



> it implies that there is no art to literature, that liking it is completely random, like someone's favorite color


 Some ones art of  literature, is another person, boring paced book filled, with plot holes, and poor characters.

It *is *all subjective.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Guy Gardner said:


> Last time he went to talk he didn't call ahead and brought a Helicarrier with the entire Avengers roster on-board. But we've gone over _that_ enough times...



A red white and blue clad military war leader, took the help of a collaborating traitor to go off with a fully armed helicarrier and a roster of unregistered persons of mass destruction to attack a floating rock because of a perceived threat?




> But that doesn't always happen. Like it was said before, when people mess with the Phoenix, things turn bad. I think the Infinite comic with Cyclops showed this well enough: emotion is amplified to horrifying extents.



Like making a half assed tony stark cock shaped hadron colider and shoot it into space splitting it into five unfit hosts


----------



## Kanali (Jun 21, 2012)

Wolverine has been absolutely terrible ever since Schism. He was awesome as the lonely badass with a shady past and a heart of gold. Having him judging Rachel for hunting a kid falls apart when its what he was doing it like 1-2 issues ago (especially when Rachel wanted to bring her back to the X-Men while Wolverine wanted to kill her). 

Hell Wolverine preaching morality at all just sounds shitty and out of character especially when after he's done preaching, he goes and preemptively kills people with his kill squad. If they're going to have him be a teacher and paragon of good, make him stop murdering people for little reason. You can't have your cake and eat it Marel


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

I kid, I kid
Captain America and Norman Osborn aren't really comparable

I mean Norman Osborn at least had the good sense to doubt Loki's word


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Kanali said:


> Wolverine has been absolutely terrible ever since Schism. He was awesome as the lonely badass with a shady past and a heart of gold.


 God Forbid a Character Grow and change, nope better to have them hit the same note for 20 years.




> Hell Wolverine preaching morality at all just sounds shitty and out of character especially when after he's done preaching, he goes and preemptively kills people with his kill squad. If they're going to have him be a teacher and paragon of good, make him stop murdering people for little reason. You can't have your cake and eat it Marel


 He Kills people so that others don't have too, he is teaching the kids now not to be like him, Nelson Mandela despite being a big leader for peace had hit squads too. And those people Wolverine kills while with X-force? World level threats, instead of judging, say thank you Wolverine for saving the world for free, Cleanly and efficiently.


Edit: Just read the preview, Logan is giving her crap for Actively hunting her down now, after she made her opinion on the matter clear, where as before no one new were she was going or why, and the world was about to end


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

James Howlet
When regular hypocrisy just won't do the trick


Cap: Every one deserves their day in court
Spider-Man: As long as I'm around no one dies
Tony Stark: Everything has a scientific solution
Wolverine: Buhahaha, you guys are precious, but I really have no respect for anything that you stand for, so I'm gonna go ahead and gut them anyway


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Even the fucking Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon made fun of this, this very week


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Cap: Every one deserves their day in court
> Spider-Man: As long as I'm around no one dies
> Tony Stark: Everything has a scientific solution
> Wolverine: Buhahaha, you guys are precious, but I really have no respect for anything that you stand for, so I'm gonna go ahead and gut them anyway



And ban continues to show that he doesn't know any thing about the character past, "he kills people some times"


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Like he killed sometimes everyone at AIM just so he could hitch a spaceship to the moon 
Or like he only sometimes tried to viciously murder Hope in three different occasions

I get what you're saying though. Wolverine only completely pisses on the values of his fellow avengers when those values are in a position of actually having any worth


Once against Zen Aku prooves his first and only challenge in making him look like an idiot is having him open his mouth on any topic whatsoever.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Like the "my opinion is different so it immediately deserves respect no matter how many times it is deconstructed and aptly ridiculed", the same way people who like to eat steaming piles of feces every day for breakfast should be viewed as unique gourmands


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> God Forbid a Character Grow and change, nope better to have them hit the same note for 20 years.


are you being sarcastic or are you talking about sinister again?



> He Kills people so that others don't have too


uh, what a hero?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

You know what he should do?
He should go up and open an institution for children and place a man like himself in the position of the single biggest example all younglings should follow


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Like he killed sometimes everyone at AIM just so he could hitch a spaceship to the moon


 You mean the terrorist group that's sole purpose is to abuse science, much in the same way it was abused when it created him and many other living weapons. You know the same aim that ether murders a whole lot of people or tries to take over the world every week. how Dare wolverine not give a shit about them while he is trying to save the world from a cosmic force of destruction, for shame on him he should of wasted time, endangered hope, and potentially alert his presence in a attempt to neutralize them peacefully, probably should of tucked them into bed too when he was done.



> Or like he only sometimes tried to viciously murder Hope in three different occasions


 You mean the young women a with mysterious and proven uncontrollable powers who specifically asked him to kill her if she lost control and became a threat to the entire planet like she did the last time he tried to kill her?



> I get what you're saying though. Wolverine only completely pisses on the values of his fellow avengers when those values are in a position of actually having any worth


 Yes because gods know the avengers never kill together or on their own, its not like they have a former arms dealer, multiple soldiers, assassins, and god damned warrior gods on the roster or any thing.



> Like the "my opinion is different so it immediately deserves respect no matter how many times it is deconstructed and aptly ridiculed", the same way people who like to eat steaming piles of feces every day for breakfast should be viewed as unique gourmands


 you have the right to you opinion but you've proven that you can't Discuss it in a reasonable fashion, nor that u look at all the facts and just like to bash, so i just go straight to telling you your wrong


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

how many detentions do they get before they're gutted?


----------



## Bender (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> How awesome would it be if this Event ended with Phoenix Cyclops vs Cap with  the Infinity Gauntlet?



The awesome would reach celestially badass levels.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

And name it after the legacy of which he actively tries to murder.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

aubro said:


> are you being sarcastic or are you talking about sinister again?


 Wolverine has had the build up for the character growth, Sinsiter hasn't.




> uh, what a hero?


How many times has he saved the world by doing the dirty work? He is a hero, He takes out the threats  because he can take hit to his soul. So that kids don't have to fight, and so the squeaky clean heroes don't have to get their hands dirty, Further more he is not the only one who kills in the  x-men or in the Avengers.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Three quotes

First


> He does it so others won't have to


Second


> the first and only challenge in making zen aku look like an idiot is allowing him to open his own mouth on any given issue


And third



> Yes because gods know the avengers never kill together or on their own, its not like they have a former arms dealer, multiple soldiers, assassins, and god damned warrior gods on the roster or any thing.



Buhahaha

Boots to asses, so easy, so easy


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Three quotes
> 
> First
> 
> ...



and once again ban shows a lack for reading comprehension (bravo by the way always an Inspiration of what not to do), my first quote doesn't contradict with the first dumb ass.

Every terrorist or genocidal maniac he kills is is a guy who A. Can't  kill any one else and B. Wont have to be dealt with by any other hero


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 21, 2012)

not sure what's going on in here, are you guys praising wolvie or hatin on him...


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Apropos of nothing


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> not sure what's going on in here, are you guys praising wolvie or hatin on him...



It's Banhammers usual M.O of "Wolverine Threatens my sexuality so i'm gonna hate on him with troll logic to mask my feelings"


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

The fact that you seriously think you've still publicly got anything remotely resembling a leg to stand on amuses me endlessly


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> The fact that you seriously think you've still publicly got anything remotely resembling a leg to stand on amuses me endlessly



Why wouldn't I i'm making logical arguments while you do what you always do Troll and troll till your own shame gets you to go away for a while.

This is how every one of are Spats end up ban



But considering how much you like loki your probably fine with that


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)




----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> It's Banhammers usual M.O of "Wolverine Threatens my sexuality so i'm gonna hate on him with troll logic to mask my feelings"



Layah's of col' fact's yo

A sage of wisdom indeed


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Translation: "I have no actually counterargument, or even a witty comeback so i'm gonna spam pics like one of those cool guys on 4chan"

Listen Ban, I'm Bored, You are Boring me, Get a new gimmick.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Bender said:


> The awesome would reach celestially badass levels.



Have Cap put one Infinity Gem at each point in the star on his shield with one in the middle.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Keep regaling me on how things like having a life and a sleep cicle are my deep deep shame


With as many blatantly obvious self indulging and self reassuring comments of how you are not the clown of the land as you can manage.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Keep regaling me on how things like having a life and a sleep cicle are my deep deep shame


 Instating i have nether? nice nice, really swinging for the fences now but at least its not a cliche .Gif or pic. 




> With as many blatantly obvious self indulging and self reassuring comments of how you are not the clown of the land as you can manage.


see I'm not the one who keep bringing up an imaginary social status and trying to use it some sort of argument, to cover up my lack of one, that's your gimmick


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Keep regaling me on how things like having a life and a sleep cicle are my deep deep shame
> 
> 
> With as many blatantly obvious self indulging and self reassuring comments of how you are not the clown of the land as you can manage.





Zen-aku said:


> Insulating i have nether? nice nice really swinging for the fences now but at-least its not a cliche .Gif or pic.
> 
> 
> see I'm not the one who keep bring up an imaginary social status and trying to use it some sort of argument, to cover up my lack of one, that's your gimmick




Thank you for obliging
The unintelligible english was a nice touch though


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Thank you for obliging
> The unintelligible english was a nice touch though



Further proof you have no reading comprehension!


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Lot's and lot's and lot's of trains


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Lot's and lot's and lot's of trains



and now we know what your favorite movie is.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Quickly, now jump like a rabid puppy again to get a last post
I'm bound to go to sleep eventually
Yeah, that'll totally show mommy who the real beneath average clown is!


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Well some Ones Projecting hard enough images can be seen on his bedroom wall.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2012)

Egad, this is so easy it may just cross the line into sad now 


You were so close though
Try another last post


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 21, 2012)

jesus christ you guys are worse than me and aubro were and we were arguing american politics

zen i agree with you on wolverine but that's pretty hypocritical when you're trashing sinister for the same sort of growth. 


and if the infinity gauntlet shows up in AvX it will immediately re-earn it's 'worst event ever' title.


----------



## Bender (Jun 21, 2012)

lol and here I thought my arguments with Ban are fun.


----------



## lucky (Jun 21, 2012)

some New Avengers 28 spoilers:


*Spoiler*: __ 





The line is obviously played out, but this was so cute! especially the last panel. 





Uploaded with 

Uploaded with 


Uploaded with


----------



## Bender (Jun 21, 2012)

Spidey never ceases to crack me up.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> zen i agree with you on wolverine but that's pretty hypocritical when you're trashing sinister for the same sort of growth.


 But weve seen the growth it didn't just happen there's the difference




> and if the infinity gauntlet shows up in AvX it will immediately re-earn it's 'worst event ever' title.


aww why, The threat is big enough to call for it, The Cap has one, and except for Namor the other Infinity holders are [assumingly] on his side.

Besides it would be cool 



lucky said:


> some New Avengers 28 spoilers:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


 I Loved that Scene too, and how he went into depth on the philosophy. And it Worked!


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 21, 2012)

1) i dont like deus ex machinas which is what it would be, a story should be relatively self-contained, not rely on the lore of other titles. especially events

2) i dont like the infinity gauntlet and other godmode powers and definitely not some war of the heroes with godpowers


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

but petes

the splashpages


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> 1) i dont like deus ex machinas which is what it would be, a story should be relatively self-contained, not rely on the lore of other titles. especially events


 I don't agree but i get that... i think that   with its last appearance and Steves actions during this that there's plenty of build up for it




> 2) i dont like the infinity gauntlet and other godmode powers and definitely not some war of the heroes with godpowers


But the X-men already have Godmode powers the avengers need to even the score some how



			
				aubro said:
			
		

> but petes
> 
> the splashpages


 Yeah especially if they are the mystery fight in the last VS issue


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 21, 2012)

remember chaos war? was seeing godmode herc fight the chaos king particularly cool? or do power levels on that scale where you shape reality kind of make an interesting 'fight' pretty much impossible?


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> remember chaos war? was seeing godmode herc fight the chaos king particularly cool?


 Yes.


> or do power levels on that scale where you shape reality kind of make an interesting 'fight' pretty much impossible?


No Especially if you have a good Artist


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

I was kidding

petes is right, using the whole infinity gauntlet would be terrible, especially if cap did it

it would shit on everything about him and what he stands for

it would turn him into wolverine


----------



## shit (Jun 21, 2012)

this is especially poignant to me since I just read the issue of F4 where nazi reed accidentally blows up his solar system with the infinity gauntlet

cuz he lost control for just a moment


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

aubro said:


> I was kidding
> 
> petes is right, using the whole infinity gauntlet would be terrible, especially if cap did it
> 
> ...



How Exactly? He wont be taking away any ones personal Freedoms if he uses it, hurt innocents, or anything like that.

Also I would assume Cap has more Will power then a Nazi Reed Richards


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 21, 2012)

wrong answers zen it was stupid :|

generally speaking i find the more powerful a character is the less interesting you can make any fight scene with them, particularly when you get near superman levels. 

god just look at how bad dbz was


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> wrong answers zen it was stupid :|
> 
> generally speaking i find the more powerful a character is the less interesting you can make any fight scene with them, particularly when you get near superman levels.
> 
> god just look at how bad dbz was







How can you say its not awesome


(ignoring you hateful words about DBZ)


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 21, 2012)

didnt work :/


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 21, 2012)

i know so i changed it to a better one


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 22, 2012)

its just a punch


----------



## Zen-aku (Jun 22, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> its just a punch



An awesome punch but theirs more great shit of that scale



Its always  fun to see the gods cut lose, and the scale get that massive


----------



## shit (Jun 22, 2012)

it's just some floaty rocks and normal looking dudes in space

the bad guy isn't even doing anything except smiling and leaning over

but I'm sure you're going to argue the contrary over and over and over, posting more pics of a big guy throwing a punch or an all powerful god leaning over a half-assed abstract filled with floaty debris and dudes in robes


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

Chaos War was about as interesting as watching a retarded fat belgian girl having an orgasm at a cake shop

With even more retarded tie-in diabetes  to boot


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

And I say this as an Incredible Hercules fan


----------



## shit (Jun 22, 2012)

the worst part is it had the most pointless tie-ins ever

except dead avengers, they were p keen


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 22, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Chaos War was about as interesting as watching a retarded fat belgian girl having an orgasm at a cake shop



This argument was worth it just for this comment.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

aubro said:


> the worst part is it had the most pointless tie-ins ever
> 
> except dead avengers, they were p keen



Let's all the dead people walk around twiddling our thumbs like retards until the plot lets the book get on with it's actual story!

With all your favorite characters
Like Madrox's two mooks, and wildpath's red shirt brother.

And your favorite avengers, the not-wasp, not-tigra, the dad of that dr druid's kid from that secret warriors, and watch vision wonder about the nature of robot souls, two events before he's nonchalantly ressurected off-pannel,  by the power of stark anyway

Together they fight.. someone? I can't remember, was it bugs?


----------



## shit (Jun 22, 2012)

not-wasp and not-tigra succeeded in being more interesting than wasp and tigra


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

Yeah

But wasn't bendis writing wasp and tigra at the time? 
Can't blame them for being boring then


----------



## shit (Jun 22, 2012)

good thing gage took over tigra and made her super interesting then


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 22, 2012)

aubro said:


> good thing gage took over tigra and made her super interesting then



I chuckled.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

Not gonna lie, there's a lot about tigra that I wish was being done and isn't, but that isn't to say that what is being done, isn't all that shaby


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 22, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Not gonna lie, there's a lot about tigra that I wish was being done and isn't, but that isn't to say that what is being done, isn't all that shaby



like an issue where she gets waxed? 

or where she dies that'd be ok


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

You ever seen Legend of Korra?
That metalbending cop lady daughter of Toph?

Call me stupid, but that's what I wanted for tigra
That or Karrin Murphy from Dresden Files


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 22, 2012)

when has tigra ever been remotely like lin? lol. i mean where do you even get that idea for her?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

Tigra was actually a cop. It's an extremely underexplored part of her and at the same time, it's the most fascinating for me
Specially considering the PG-13 rapefest she went through at the hands of not just a supervillain, but a kingpin of crime type of a super villain
Tigra will never be taken seriously as a leader of super heroes, barely as a teacher for super powered teens, but as a leader of cops in a city that gets invaded by aliens and giant spiders as part of their tourism attractions by now?
I don't know
Seems like a good idea


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

and for god's sake, give her an image inducer already
This cat thing would be a lot less ridiculous if it as something she could turn on and off


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 22, 2012)

image inducers are terrible though, it's like, if nightcrawler had one then there goes a lot of his angst or whatever.

but so is tigra. she's just some awful furry fetish character


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

If shit sees you hatin on furries we go'ngo n' have drumms.

Anyway, I recall Nighcrawler do having an image inducer and being called out on it as being x-shamming himself.
But Tigra would get to have one out of professional necessity
That and wearing fur under a cop uniform would have to be hell to look at


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 22, 2012)

The average guy doesn't know shit about Tigra despite how she's existed for longer than me, enough to even help against the Molecule Man and ride on the Silver Surfer's board.

She's one of those characters that come and go in waves.


----------



## Bender (Jun 22, 2012)

It's a damn shame Thanos (who was revived recently) can't join in the event. I mean not intervene and take the phoenix (god help us all) but at least comment on this shit.


----------



## Es (Jun 22, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Tigra was actually a cop. It's an extremely underexplored part of her and at the same time, it's the most fascinating for me
> Specially considering the PG-13 rapefest she went through at the hands of not just a supervillain, but a kingpin of crime type of a super villain
> Tigra will never be taken seriously as a leader of super heroes, barely as a teacher for super powered teens, but as a leader of cops in a city that gets invaded by aliens and giant spiders as part of their tourism attractions by now?
> I don't know
> Seems like a good idea



I remeber there was a comic about this one officer during Secret Wars


----------



## sanx021 (Jun 22, 2012)

Do IT MARVEL


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

Es said:


> I remeber there was a comic about this one officer during Secret Wars


Yeah, just give me a nice mystery book with officer Tigra on call

And a lesbian afair with the night nurse


sanx021 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





they wouldn't dare


----------



## sanx021 (Jun 22, 2012)

Yes they would Thor doesn't deserve Mjolnir he punched a kid for no reason in avx#6


----------



## shit (Jun 22, 2012)

if you snagged mjolnir, you'd throw cap's shield in the trash


----------



## shit (Jun 22, 2012)

am I the only that notices namor's pants are barely hanging on
you could probably see his crack from behind


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 22, 2012)

Their costumes are beautiful, nightwing thong notwithstanding 

My personal favorite design-wise is Colosus and his tabard


----------



## shit (Jun 22, 2012)

yeah he looks ready to wreck a civilization


----------



## creative (Jun 22, 2012)

aubro said:


> am I the only that notices namor's pants are barely hanging on
> you could probably see his crack from behind




Namor always seemed like the type to go streaking. I can only listen to the faints of delight as tublr girls squee at namor's firm ass-cheeks.


----------



## Id (Jun 23, 2012)

Just read the recent AvX #6. I didn't think this was possible but. Mind=Blown.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 23, 2012)

Still idiotic, still stupid, still pointless. Do not be phased by the smokescreens and mirrors. It is all empty


----------



## Id (Jun 23, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Still idiotic, still stupid, still pointless. Do not be phased by the smokescreens and mirrors. It is all empty



I like the feel of this emptiness.


----------



## Platinum (Jun 23, 2012)

Dat Punisher issue .


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 23, 2012)

Meyer Lansky said:


> I like the feel of this emptiness.



A story where some good guys gain nigh-omnipotent powers (Marvel term for omnipotence) and use it to fix everything in the world and they eventually come into conflicts with other good guys

SO ORIGINAL! I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF SUCH A STORY BEFORE

MARVEL: HOUSE OF IDEAS SINCE THEY STARTED SKULLFUCKING YOU


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 23, 2012)

It's a bit different from House of M, I think

For once, everyone is actually taking the time to question themselves, unlike the thoroughly mind boggling events of the first act

Sure, some things are still very very stupid, like they pose the problem of "I don't see any of us rushing to make Thor accountable for his power" but then they go ahead with their second attempt at a kidnapping anyway without dealing with it, but after the events of AvsX Act I this is something you expect them to do, and whether or not we like it, it feels natural, and we get it better

It's a positive issue omglpp
Specially when you consider AvsX as a tie-in and UXM the actual main event :33


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 23, 2012)

Everyone remember what happened in the first arc of Cable and Deadpool? 

No?

Ok

Let's be honest kids, #6 is only a positive because of the previous 5 issues before it and nice art. If you spent your entire life eating shit then when I offer you mud, you'll worship me


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 23, 2012)

it was a pretty solid issue of typical hickman quality with really good art olpp

which next to the first 5 makes it amazing. but i wonder if the event would've read a whole lot better with a capable artist.


----------



## creative (Jun 23, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> it was a pretty solid issue of typical hickman quality with really good art olpp
> 
> which next to the first 5 makes it amazing. but i wonder if the event would've read a whole lot better with a capable artist.



I second this post but only slightly. this event is at a whole a collection of marvel's writers. surely they would have known to write the event as such. that said I guess I need to get around to reading FF since Hickman is leaving Ultimates.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 23, 2012)

I cannot believe you people after all the crap that has been dumped on your face, you come back and rejoice so easily? Hickman quality does not detract from that the actual events that transpire in book, or how it's only marginally more logical and intelligent than the previous five issues


----------



## Es (Jun 23, 2012)

It is like the reading equivalent of starving in a desert and only to be saved ending up with a turkey dinner


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 23, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> I cannot believe you people after all the crap that has been dumped on your face, you come back and rejoice so easily?



its not very hard when you arent paying for it.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 23, 2012)

Well            played, touche


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 23, 2012)

Thank You Based Hickman :WOW


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 23, 2012)

very well played pete rep///


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 23, 2012)

Thank You Baked Hickman :WOW


----------



## LIL_M0 (Jun 24, 2012)

Someone needs to do a CardCrusher meme where Cyclops offers Hope the phoenix force.


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 24, 2012)

LIL_M0 said:


> Someone needs to do a CardCrusher meme where Cyclops offers Hope the phoenix force.



Yeah that was pretty great.

It cracks me up that after 5 issues of AVENGERSAREEXTERMINATINGMUTANTSWENEEDTHEPHOENIX  frothing at the mouth idiocy, once Scott does get the Phoenix, he does absolutely nothing to restart the mutants. Instead, he's trying to make a utopia for humans.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 24, 2012)

Well, the mutants were wiped out because of "A Wizard Did it", so it's hard to reverse it without "a wizard doing it"

And a force of balance like the phoenix seems to be very antagonistic to one of chaos like the scarlet witch

So maybe there's a plan.


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 24, 2012)

I suppose... but I mean, Scott's been waiting for this since Hope was born. And now that he has the power himself, after 5 issues of essentially screaming 'the Phoenis will bring back mutants' he's not even going to try?

Maybe there is a plan, and a reason. But its such a jarring 180 turn, especially after the first 5 issues of AvX.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 24, 2012)

Scott's been waiting for years for _something_
He didn't know if it was going to be the phoenix, the high evolutionary, or a pack of pissed of celestials, he was a bit too busy trying to save an entire race from a vampire invasion, alien extermination or plagues to be devising too many plans about what to do with it

Maybe he just doesn't know how to kickstart the x-gene again just yet
Maybe hurling aircraft carriers into the sun is the easy stuff, comparatively speaking


----------



## shit (Jun 24, 2012)

absolutely astonishes me that beast is siding with the avengers after his extended quest to bring back mutantkind just after House of M, now that I think about it

scarlet witch comes back and the phoenix becomes available, and he just doesn't care to try anymore

seems he's completely given up on bringing back mutantdom, and he'd take it as an affront if anyone succeeded where he failed, that he's only even considering mutants as a fraternity rather than a race or a species

seems to me the real issue here is that the avengers are challenging the idea that mutants are anything more than a category of super humans, no different from "super soldiers" or "asgardians" or "intelligencia" or "spider-people"

and as disturbing as that line of thinking may be, the more disturbing thing is that's pretty much way more interesting than what's actually going on or has been going on since the decimation


----------



## shit (Jun 24, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Yeah that was pretty great.
> 
> It cracks me up that after 5 issues of AVENGERSAREEXTERMINATINGMUTANTSWENEEDTHEPHOENIX  frothing at the mouth idiocy, once Scott does get the Phoenix, he does absolutely nothing to restart the mutants. Instead, he's trying to make a utopia for humans.



well, isn't he possessed and not of his right mind anymore?
maybe this is pretty much totally the phoenix's doing and not his

/haven't yet read the latest issue


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 24, 2012)

Wouldn't making a utopia for humans give them a reason to leave the mutants alone so that when he does bring the mutants back, the humans can accept them? Oh wait, this is the Marvel universe, what am I saying?


----------



## DeathScream (Jun 24, 2012)

cyclops is fucking retarded, at least AvX ending with him dying in shame would be great


----------



## Parallax (Jun 24, 2012)

aubro said:


> absolutely astonishes me that beast is siding with the avengers after his extended quest to bring back mutantkind just after House of M, now that I think about it
> 
> scarlet witch comes back and the phoenix becomes available, and he just doesn't care to try anymore
> 
> ...



This was a great post Shit

I think there's a lot of great ideas for this series to mine but they haven't really done much with it


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 24, 2012)

aubro said:


> absolutely astonishes me that beast is siding with the avengers after his extended quest to bring back mutantkind just after House of M, now that I think about it




*Spoiler*: __ 



Beast shows how much his opinion in very clear colors in AvsX 6.
He says "these are my friends you sycophantic fools" and walks away





> scarlet witch comes back and the phoenix becomes available, and he just doesn't care to try anymore


Oh Summers had a fit when Wanda came back.
She simply lost the bulk of her powers due to Doom, so she can't bring the mutants back
They let her go because of a disney speech by Wiccan


Which reminds me, didn't wolverine also try to kill Wiccan?

And we still don't have a def. on the phoenix force


> seems he's completely given up on bringing back mutantdom, and he'd take it as an affront if anyone succeeded where he failed, that he's only even considering mutants as a fraternity rather than a race or a species


I'm not sure here 


> seems to me the real issue here is that the avengers are challenging the idea that mutants are anything more than a category of super humans, no different from "super soldiers" or "asgardians" or "intelligencia" or "spider-people"


Well, if they are, they're wrong
Not to mention, the SHRA was dropped like an ugly red headed step child.
So it would be kind of hypocritical



> and as disturbing as that line of thinking may be, the more disturbing thing is that's pretty much way more interesting than what's actually going on or has been going on since the decimation



Heh. Not a lot of people made a fuss about "curing" Thor


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 24, 2012)

I don't seriously think Scott ever took it upon himself to lead the charge on the return of mutantikind, just it's survival.

At least once it was clear on every venue that the return of the x-gene was impossible

You know, considering one of the human's first decisions was blow a bus full of kids

(something the superheroes went to war over each other for, but didn't really gave much of a crap when it happened to mutants) 

When the messiah was born, I felt like he took it like there was something to survive for.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 24, 2012)

[/scottsummersfanboybrigade]


----------



## shit (Jun 24, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


says that to who?



> Oh Summers had a fit when Wanda came back.
> She simply lost the bulk of her powers due to Doom, so she can't bring the mutants back
> They let her go because of a disney speech by Wiccan


oh well might as well give up then
mutants and uchiha, keep going right up until the going gets tough

disney speeches are lame, and so is the guy who made that children's crusade tripe



> Which reminds me, didn't wolverine also try to kill Wiccan?


and madrox told wanda to fuck herself
there wasn't anything about CC that made sense
BND the next generation



> And we still don't have a def. on the phoenix force


pretty sure beast was complicit in the death of canonball's sibling and crossing all sorts of moral boundaries, but even approaching the idea concerning the phoenix is crazy wrong for some reason?
not saying it's right for him to consider it, I'm just saying it's OOC of him not to



> I'm not sure here
> Well, if they are, they're wrong
> Not to mention, the SHRA was dropped like an ugly red headed step child.
> So it would be kind of hypocritical


they don't afford mutants anymore rights than other superheros
certainly aren't concerned with them being endangered


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 24, 2012)

aubro said:


> says that to who?


To every avenger within earshot


> oh well might as well give up then
> mutants and uchiha, keep going right up until the going gets tough


I wouldn't say "give up" as much as I would say "otherwise occupied"
He did assemble a science team for example
Are you saying you hate Dr Nemesis? 


> disney speeches are lame, and so is the guy who made that children's crusade tripe


Kind of hard to argue that.
Beautiful stuff, and I did miss the YA, but boy was that a hatchet job...


> and madrox told wanda to fuck herself
> there wasn't anything about CC that made sense
> BND the next generation


Yes... We are in agreement


> pretty sure beast was complicit in the death of canonball's sibling and crossing all sorts of moral boundaries, but even approaching the idea concerning the phoenix is crazy wrong for some reason?


The one with Dark Beast? I thought the kid survived. Or do you mean Icarus, who sort of killed himself?
Or do you mean the other one?
God, being a guthrie sucks



> not saying it's right for him to consider it, I'm just saying it's OOC of him not to


I don't know, we are still only one issue in
It feels like they are practicing the use of their power with Pax Utopia





> they don't afford mutants anymore rights than other superheros
> certainly aren't concerned with them being endangered


And considering things like the MRA, Proposition X, the Sentinels, Weapon X (which was canadian, granted, but so many avengers are/ have been foreign anyway) and so on, they would be wrong
Summers in the end of avx6 
*Spoiler*: __ 



comes to the realization after hope is "taken away" that the avengers are sorry bastards who keep coming and coming after them for the sake of "humanity" no matter how harmless,  no matter how much of an effort they give to make the world a better place, and no matter how many atrocities vanilla humans make against them. So he figures it's high time the avengers got schooled in the art of woop-ass


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 24, 2012)

yeah beast is at least wavering, because when it was the phoenix coming to earth to kill everything, ok it was dangerous. but now the x-men haven't done anything wrong yet and the avengers are plotting to take them down.


----------



## Id (Jun 24, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> A story where some good guys gain nigh-omnipotent powers (Marvel term for omnipotence) and use it to fix everything in the world and they eventually come into conflicts with other good guys
> 
> SO ORIGINAL! I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF SUCH A STORY BEFORE
> 
> MARVEL: HOUSE OF IDEAS SINCE THEY STARTED SKULLFUCKING YOU



Meh copypasta plot does not bother me. At this point, I feel as if I've read it all. 

But the execution of plot, and art changed to my liking....in the middle of the arc. So yeah mind = blown.


omg laser pew pew! said:


> Everyone remember what happened in the first arc of Cable and Deadpool?



Yes!


----------



## Kanali (Jun 24, 2012)

The whole curse Scarlet Witch put on the X-Gene seems to change with every writer. I recall during Beasts quest to cure it that he came to the conclusion that it was magical in nature and that removing it was impossible through scientific means and the only magical way of removing them had a big chance of destroying reality. 

And yet Quicksilver manages to get cured by sticking terrigen crystals anywhere they fit on his body and Magneto gets cured by the High Evolutionary.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 24, 2012)

I thought it was never clear what gave pietro his powers back

I thought it was something like what happened to bobby


----------



## Kanali (Jun 24, 2012)

An imaginary Layla Miller told him "They've done their job, you don't need them anymore" when he was in prison and talking about how powerless he was without the crystals. He was hallucinating a bunch of people and imaginary Layla told him that this was all stuff he knew deep down. Then he sees a woman about to be murdered, vibrates a wall off and BOOM he has his powers back.

Its all in X-Factor - The Quick and the Dead


----------



## Rasendori (Jun 24, 2012)

I just read the last two New Avengers. The AvX side stories are more entertaining than the actual run. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



I wonder how spider training Hope ties into anything. Shit was so random, and I'm not even going to get into the whole Iron Fist Phoenix force relationship.


----------



## shit (Jun 24, 2012)

maybe quicksilver was just suppressing his powers like ice-man did for like a minute right after HoM


----------



## Kanali (Jun 24, 2012)

I doubt it, otherwise why would the Crystals have given him new powers? Why did it last so long? What was the whole thing about "the crystals have run their course?". Why would he even repress them in the first place? If I recall correctly, Iceman's thing was feeling guilty or ashamed or whatever that he had his powers and his friends didn't or something, I don't see Quicksilver caring about that. The whole Iceman thing was just so that they could have a dramatic reveal at the end of House of M without having to pay the price of de-powering a fan favorite.

It doesn't really matter in the end though, Quicksilver getting his powers back that way were only marginally less ridiculous than Iceman "repressing" his. Im glad he did get his powers back, Quicksilver is a good character but still.


----------



## shit (Jun 24, 2012)

well xavier got his powers back by being thrown into the mkraan crystals so

bullshit gonna bullshit


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 24, 2012)

M'Kraan cristal is phoenix related, so maybe that's how they'll do it


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 24, 2012)

Thor could hurt full powered Phoenix
Thor can't even do anything to 1/5 of the Phoenix 

Marvel

The more and more comics I read, the more I'm convinced that people with an attention span and coherant minds are not the type of audience comics are for. 

I'm still surprised there isn't more vitiriol thrown on the whole "Stark can make a gun to KILL the Phoenix". Because..........Marvel

At least UXM and JitM was released this month. Double Gillen > all


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 24, 2012)

Scott Summers > James Howlett


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 25, 2012)

Huh. So Brubaker is finally leaving Captain America. I think I might check the book out once he's off.


----------



## creative (Jun 25, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Huh. So Brubaker is finally leaving Captain America. I think I might check the book out once he's off.


the solo captain america? the team-up book? holy shit please don't let it be. I love Burbarker's Cap. it's like the Jurgen's and waid's run but with prettier colors and grief-ridden cap not being so gary-stu-ish!


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 25, 2012)

The solo book.

Here's the interview:


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 25, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Thor could hurt full powered Phoenix
> Thor can't even do anything to 1/5 of the Phoenix



well thats just what happens when you have a bunch of tie ins by other writers

i really don't have much of a problem with the plot other than how quick everyone is to resort to violence to solve their problems. i think most of the problems of the book would've been solved with a good artist from the start. 

like, an artist who could've made the fight scenes of issue 2 look big and impressive so that aaron wouldn't need to put a bunch of shitty faux poetic dialogue boxes all over to convince us this battle is a big deal. because it all looked like such garbage.


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 25, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> well thats just what happens when you have a bunch of tie ins by other writers.



heck in another tie-in, Hala is being invaded by the Avengers 

at least Uncanny X-Men works with the event :WOW


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 25, 2012)

About that What If? sounding Phoenix gun, part of me wishes to see the reaction from people who had already complained about Iron Man trying to tech like Dr. Doom.

But then I don't.



Bergelmir said:


> Huh. So Brubaker is finally leaving Captain America. I think I might check the book out once he's off.



Another age closes.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 25, 2012)

i liked when gillen corrected the blasphemous mistake that was namor losing to thing underwater.

it was like he went 'that was horrible, here let me show you how you do namor vs thing'


and yeah huh, that's every big avenger book changing hands i think. it's too bad i felt like brubaker never really found his rhythm with steve rogers, now he won't really get the chance.


----------



## creative (Jun 25, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> The solo book.
> 
> Here's the interview:


Fatale looks like a good read none the less. Ed's got my support on that. I can't get into winter solider though. It feels incredibly different to captain america to me. I get that for alot of people that's a plus but it still bothers me.


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 25, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> i liked when gillen corrected the blasphemous mistake that was namor losing to thing underwater.
> 
> it was like he went 'that was horrible, here let me show you how you do namor vs thing'



I was thankful for that as well


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 25, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> *i liked when gillen corrected the blasphemous mistake that was namor losing to thing underwater.
> 
> it was like he went 'that was horrible, here let me show you how you do namor vs thing'*
> 
> and yeah huh, that's every big avenger book changing hands i think. it's too bad i felt like brubaker never really found his rhythm with steve rogers, now he won't really get the chance.



I thought you didn't care about stuff like that


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 25, 2012)

Tony Stark making Deus Ex Machina is something that looses it's ability to outrage me with each iteration


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 25, 2012)

I mean, helicarrier to the face anyone?


----------



## creative (Jun 25, 2012)

I don't care enough about adjectiveless avengers to read that tie-in, which is suppose to explain how iron-man's plot armor is the way it is for this event.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 25, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> and yeah huh, that's every big avenger book changing hands i think. it's too bad i felt like brubaker never really found his rhythm with steve rogers, now he won't really get the chance.



I dunno, I think his early Cap was great, although most of it was due to how Cap reacted to Bucky coming back.

That being said, I'm fine with Bru leaving Cap solo. You can tell there's only 1 cap character he really wants to write, and with WS blowing Cap out of the water month after month I'm okay with a new writer on that title.


----------



## shit (Jun 25, 2012)

yeah cap has been mediocre for a while
cap team up is mediocre as well, gonna drop it if the first ish with ironman doesn't blow my skirt up

iono about bunn, he seems like a cross between way and aaron, and it sucks that he's taking over for proven writers rather than shmucks, but I guess that's cuz the shmucks' books are being cancelled
I think he'll find his rhythm best on venom, and I think it's pretty responsible of remender to write with him for this arc to make the transition less jarring
but with a high profile title in wolverine and two mid-profile titles, I just don't think bunn has the chops to hang around
something tells me it'll be like watching daniel way's career rise and fall all over again

as for brubaker, it's funny that he's elevated in the ridiculous "star marvel writers" ad campaign just to jump ship like this, but I can't say I'm not excited at the prospect of gillen or remender getting that piece of pie instead

hickman, gillen, remender, aaron, fraction, bendis each with two or three high profile titles (except aaron?)
could be a lot worse


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 25, 2012)

supposedly in this case bunn is only helping co-write because brubaker needed some help to wrap up his run with it double-shipping- he's burned out on superhero comics. 

bunn isn't necessarily taking over afterwards.


----------



## creative (Jun 25, 2012)

aubro said:


> yeah cap has been mediocre for a while
> cap team up is mediocre as well, gonna drop it if the first ish with ironman doesn't blow my skirt up
> 
> iono about bunn, he seems like a cross between way and aaron, and it sucks that he's taking over for proven writers rather than shmucks, but I guess that's cuz the shmucks' books are being cancelled
> ...




is it fair to call aaron a high-profile writer? wolverine and the x-men is his only top-notch book. his wolverine run sold well but the criticism for it (mine's included) aren't....high at all. I also heard he's being replaced from incredibel hulk, which Is awesome since it's been shit so far. I do love red hulk far more than the original but that's because jeff parker did an amazing job of making him so dynamic from greenskin, redoing leob's execution.


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 25, 2012)

Aw crap, Red Hulk is ending too? I've been digging Parker's work there.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 25, 2012)

no marvel said they have some sort of announcement coming up with parker's hulk, but it's not canceled i guess


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 25, 2012)

...my bad. I should have actually read the article. I feel like a tit for over reacting now.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 25, 2012)

Ha, one line of "Oh, really? I liked that" is not overreacting. 

And yeah it's pretty obvious that he's burned out on superhero comics that aren't Winter Soldier.


----------



## creative (Jun 25, 2012)

I'm still on nerve about this actually. Rulk's sales have been plummeting since the "hulk in arabia" arc. marvel may have not said anything about the book but that may be because their tying things together for agents of S.M.A.S.H. the same shit was pulled for X-23. besides, that twitter comment is still suspect.


----------



## shit (Jun 25, 2012)

a creative color said:


> is it fair to call aaron a high-profile writer? wolverine and the x-men is his only top-notch book. his wolverine run sold well but the criticism for it (mine's included) aren't....high at all.


he's one of the main writers on avx, so yeah


> I also heard he's being replaced from incredibel hulk, which Is awesome since it's been shit so far. I do love red hulk far more than the original but that's because jeff parker did an amazing job of making him so dynamic from greenskin, redoing leob's execution.



I kinda like aaron's IH
parker's is superior tho, and he should be given the next event, imo


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 25, 2012)

Once I broke away from hulk it was impossible for me to get back into it


----------



## Es (Jun 25, 2012)

It's getting good. They were following up on that plotline started in the A-Bomb back up


----------



## Bender (Jun 25, 2012)

LIL_M0 said:


> Someone needs to do a CardCrusher meme where Cyclops offers Hope the phoenix force.



That will be fucking awesome.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 25, 2012)

Aaron's IH....................hoooooo boy. Where do I even start? It's like Aaron didn't even read what happened for the past few years with Pak's run


----------



## Es (Jun 26, 2012)

He at least has the Hulk speak in complete sentences *cough* Bendis *cough*


----------



## Kanali (Jun 26, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Aaron's IH....................hoooooo boy. Where do I even start? It's like Aaron didn't even read what happened for the past few years with Pak's run



This. At the end of the last run, Hulk and Banner make peace and pretty much realize they're one guy. Then this comes along and suddenly they get a divorce and hate each other more than ever.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 26, 2012)

Brevoot says "if you're mad about it, then go buy the old run and read that instead"


----------



## Parallax (Jun 26, 2012)

Which I agree with to some extent

Don't be such a continuity ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)


----------



## shit (Jun 26, 2012)

well when the arc is immediately previous, it is sort of ridiculous


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 26, 2012)

Parallax said:


> Which I agree with to some extent
> 
> Don't be such a continuity ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)



I don't.
Like, I don't object to any story. 
Be it a bruce treating the hulk like a bad case of hemoroids, or be it writing a younger divorced news photographer peter parker
There's just a way to do it


*Spoiler*: _Unrequired rant_ 




Simply put, the only reason why writing these characters is awesome, is that the people behind you made it awesome, and to kill an idea is to not give a shit about it.
So you know, ignoring continuity in any major way is for me like taking a dump on your mother's mouth, because you couldn't hold it to the bathroom.
Or maybe worse, it's like admitting you think your story is more important than theirs, and humility is the one thing no writer should go without




Besides, continuity is good. 
Continuity is really the major reason why they make events in the first place.
It peeves me when it's sold out by editorial comments as if  it was some trashy abortion, and they turn and milk it for all they can


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 26, 2012)

I can see both sides of the argument, but I agree with Ban that there are certain things you just shouldn't do.

Like I haven't read Aaron's ihulk, but directly contradicting the arc that came before you with no in story explanation why is just bad form.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 26, 2012)

The real tragedy is PAD's Hulk still being incomplete in Visionaries.

A lot of which I'm sure is discarded or retconned nowadays anyway.


----------



## shit (Jun 26, 2012)

well pak disregarded himself several times

it's not like aaron doesn't acknowledge that it's a tremendous character shift

he just makes something huge happen with no explanation, in this case hulk being overwhelmed with a desire to get rid of banner and making that come to pass


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 26, 2012)

Parallax said:


> Which I agree with to some extent
> 
> Don't be such a continuity ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)



So it's completely fine for characters to do completel 180s all the time? Would it be fine if Spider-Man started killing?


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 26, 2012)




----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 26, 2012)

aubro said:


> well pak disregarded himself several times
> 
> it's not like aaron doesn't acknowledge that it's a tremendous character shift
> 
> he just makes something huge happen with no explanation, in this case hulk being overwhelmed with a desire to get rid of banner and making that come to pass



And then when he merges with Banner again it becomes Crank with Hulk Rules. which i'm fine with, but to be honest i'd rather Banner have become a reacurring villain.

Don't get me wrong I like what Pak did with both Banner and Hulk, but that doesn't mean i'm not at least going to try and enjoy Aaron's run. yes he's ignoring what came before, but it's better than what Bendis is doing with the character in Assembled


I'm okay with this.

also Cho is apparently taking over Wolverine


----------



## Es (Jun 26, 2012)

The Bite of the She-Wolf said:


> The real tragedy is PAD's Hulk still being incomplete in Visionaries.
> 
> A lot of which I'm sure is discarded or retconned nowadays anyway.



I remember he at least partially retconned Jenkins and Jones flubs on his second run. And Way and Pak followed trough. Loeb not so much


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 26, 2012)

Welp. I guess I'm not checking the book out after all. I'll wait until JRJR is off.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 26, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> Welp. I guess I'm not checking the book out after all. I'll wait until JRJR is off.



Eh Remender to me vastly outweighs the negative that is JRJR being on the book to, I can stomach his art if need be


----------



## shit (Jun 26, 2012)

YES

FUCK YES

HELL FUCKING YES

my stock answer to new remender anything


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 26, 2012)

I'm so conflicted


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 26, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Eh Remender to me vastly outweighs the negative that is JRJR being on the book two, I can stomach his art if need be



Alas, I can't. Nowadays JRJR is an instant drop for me. He's basically the art version of Bendis to me.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 26, 2012)

i see him as more gage


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 26, 2012)

I can't really remember anything of Gage's that I've read with the exception of Absolution, which I liked, and the first few issues of Avenger's Academy, which I disliked.

I take it he's pretty mediocre?


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 27, 2012)

he has his positive attributes sometimes but he's too bogged down in nostalgia. hence why JRJR is artgage


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 27, 2012)

Heh. Yeah, that explains the comparison.

On another Marvely art note, I'm looking forward to Acuna on Uncanny X-men. Sinister's undercity should look interesting with Acuna's painting style.


----------



## Es (Jun 27, 2012)

Acuna's art is always welcome


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm curious who's gonna do inks / colors for cap. That could be the difference between bad and tolerable for me.


----------



## shit (Jun 27, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> I can't really remember anything of Gage's that I've read with the exception of Absolution, which I liked, and the first few issues of Avenger's Academy, which I disliked.
> 
> I take it he's pretty mediocre?



he also did like all of avengers initiative


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 27, 2012)

Did he? Well, thats another to the 'I liked' list. You know, I kinda miss Butterball. That 'expulsion' issue with Taskmaster and Constricter. Beautiful.


----------



## shit (Jun 27, 2012)

he's made a cameo or three in academy


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 27, 2012)

aubro said:


> he's made a cameo or three in academy



He's actually in the academy itself since it's expanded.  but he doesn't appear as much as White Tiger, Lightspeed or Juston.

to be honest i'm not liking the book as much as I used to


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 27, 2012)

North Carolina didn't suit him, eh?  Well, at least he's popping up, even if it is just minor cameos.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 27, 2012)

aubro said:


> YES
> 
> FUCK YES
> 
> ...



Fuck yeah Homestuck.



Bergelmir said:


> Alas, I can't. Nowadays JRJR is an instant drop for me. He's basically the art version of Bendis to me.



Agreed, even though I like Bendis, although that's just through USM. As I love Spider-Man, I refuse to jump on to ASM through the Big Time Ultimate Collection because I despise Ramos' art. I don't want my first issue of ASM to be drawn by Ramos or where Peter is in a relationship with Carlie Cooper (Although Carnage: Family Feud might have broken that second rule for me), so I'm either to pick up the omnibuses or wait for a starting point beginning with No Turning Back and onward.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 27, 2012)

WATXM had great moments that made me feel all cudly

"For shame marvel girl! You could have been one of the greats!"
"Bite my ass!"


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2012)

Not another goddamn event.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 27, 2012)

Al Capone said:


> Not another goddamn event.



I'm really Hoping This is War isn't really an event, just a minor avengers crossover.

because by god fuck Marvel if they're doing back to back events


----------



## shit (Jun 27, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> He's actually in the academy itself since it's expanded.  but he doesn't appear as much as White Tiger, Lightspeed or Juston.
> 
> to be honest i'm not liking the book as much as I used to



yeah it's gotten away from what made it endearing with all these new folks

and the fact that it's the least important avx book really hurts


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 27, 2012)

is the book still following that annoying 'have argument with grownups, fight the grown ups, hank/tigra talks about how hard these moron kids have it, then kids have an emotional moment' formula?

because that was like every issue.


----------



## Es (Jun 27, 2012)

Haters gonna hate

And no, the kids convince Pym to help them save the Sentinel from Emma


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 27, 2012)

so it's emma they get into a needless fight with this time


----------



## Es (Jun 27, 2012)

Hardly needless


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 27, 2012)

Well if it's anything like their stupid ass brawls with the avengers and magneto it is.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 27, 2012)

the cover is pretty though


----------



## shit (Jun 27, 2012)

I'd defend them, but it dawns on me I can't remember half their names


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 27, 2012)

rainbow girl from power pack, jouston, the iron giant analog, and Laura x-23


----------



## shit (Jun 27, 2012)

I meant the originals

hazmat, striker, .... that's all I got


----------



## Kanali (Jun 27, 2012)

the rest are Reptil, Finesse, Veil and Hawaiian Red Skull guy whose name I can't remember.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 27, 2012)

Hawain Red Skull, Emo Steam chick, gay jersey shore guy, Hero Up mexican, and psycopath


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 27, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Hawain Red Skull, Emo Steam chick, gay jersey shore guy, Hero Up mexican, and *psycopath*



If Metel is Hawaiian Red Skull, Finesse might as well be Taskmaster Jr.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 27, 2012)

she is. taskmaster's her dad


----------



## shit (Jun 27, 2012)

I will say that gage kind of gave up on her struggle and just made her a mary sue here lately

and by mary sue I mean stuck up bitch


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 27, 2012)

What happened between her and Pietro? I seem to remember something about her blackmailing him.


----------



## shit (Jun 27, 2012)

she promised she wouldn't tell and they became bffs

and then never spoke to each other on panel since


----------



## Bergelmir (Jun 27, 2012)

...its sad that I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.


----------



## shit (Jun 28, 2012)

I'm pretty much saying exactly what happened

but maybe I'm exaggerating how long they haven't interacted since

I think three or four issues


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 28, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> I'm really Hoping This is War isn't really an event, just a minor avengers crossover.
> 
> because by god fuck Marvel if they're doing back to back events



The general consensus is that it's either the Ultron War or Dan Slott's The Reckoning War. The former would fit in with the Avengers, especially since Bendis' long run on Avengers is supposed to end soon, while the latter was building up in Slott's run on She-Hulk and since he rights ASM, it would make sense to announce his event at the panel for the main book he writes.

Although the more I think about, I more I think it's going to be the Ultron War.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 28, 2012)

Eh.
All these events need more ultron


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 28, 2012)

I don't like the idea of "Events" being done so often, but I am looking forward to an Ultron storyline since I havn't seen him outside on the Avengers cartoon series, but seems pretty intresting.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 28, 2012)

Your biometrics indicate every trait of a human "lie"

But they could also be product of being in my immediate presence. This is only understandable


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jun 28, 2012)

Judging by  , it's actually going to be a Punisher story, presumably titled "War Zone."


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 28, 2012)

Has War changed, Frank?


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 28, 2012)

Oh wow if this is about Punisher then this maybe great too.

Maybe the war will be muiltple 'wars'.

Punisher, Ultron and something else.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 28, 2012)

Greg Rucka's punisher vs. everyone? Sounds good to me.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 28, 2012)

maybe it'll be like a canon version of punisher vs the marvel u.

except instead of fanwanking nonsense punisher just loses every single fight he gets into. because that's how it would go. except daredevil he could just shoot daredevil


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 28, 2012)

Actually, yeah...I forgot the teasers with Thor and Iron Man. There really would be no way to make that work and have it be good.


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 28, 2012)

wow another event right off the bat


----------



## creative (Jun 28, 2012)

I have reason to believe this next event will be more like  venom's circle of four mini crossover.
rucka's punisher has been losing sales lately along with ultimate comics spider man and avengers academy. It's totally possible that this could be Frank's last hoora before the incoming announcement of cancellation. Much to my chagrin, this has happened before to daken, black widow and X-23.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 29, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> maybe it'll be like a canon version of punisher vs the marvel u.
> 
> except instead of fanwanking nonsense punisher just loses every single fight he gets into. because that's how it would go. *except daredevil he could just shoot daredevil*



I wouldn't buy even that one unless Matt is acting the wimp/being exploited or the writers forget just how good his radar sense actually is. He can focus it on checking out a woman's ass while preventing Foggy from stepping on a dog's shit that _he_ didn't see, while noticing a number of other little things just during a street stroll. Or spot a Bullseye card through the air when Elektra doesn't.

But I guess having a gun and being a "good" guy can be like entering invincibility mode.


----------



## shit (Jun 29, 2012)

pretty sure a lot of marvel writers underestimate how fast a fired bullet actually is


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 29, 2012)

aubro said:


> pretty sure a lot of marvel writers underestimate how fast a fired bullet actually is



Just a bit.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2012)

I remember that spiderman vs kravinoffs where one of them is genuinely astonished at spider-man dodging a bullet because of the riffle's speed


----------



## Slice (Jun 29, 2012)

With Spiderman you can always say his sense warns him of the bullet beeing about to be fired and then direct him out of harms way.


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 29, 2012)

a lot of marvel's squishier heroes have some kind of bullet dodging power, allegedly. I don't buy it with daredevil though. Or captain america really, even though he's got a shield.


----------



## Slice (Jun 29, 2012)

Agreed with Cap, peak human should still be below bullet dodging.

Daredevil... well, maybe he hears the trigger being pulled and just jumps in a random diretion and so far had enough luck to not be hit.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2012)

Actually, Spidey's sense was down because of a bad case of PLOTosis


----------



## Slice (Jun 29, 2012)

Ok then this too is filed unter "stupid".


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 29, 2012)

also underestimated- how many times punisher can get shot and still live, without ever visiting a hospital


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2012)

about as many times as scott summers can get brutally stabbed and not curl down to a fetal position


----------



## shit (Jun 29, 2012)

and how many times tony can weld on his brain stem without being a vegetable


----------



## Taleran (Jun 29, 2012)

Marvel I think you got me with this one.


*Spoiler*: _sfavasgasgasga_ 












Wondering which Fraction arrives to Bat and how fast double shipping will murder interest.


----------



## shit (Jun 29, 2012)

ok, gotta make sure I subscribe to that one


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 29, 2012)

So it is *Punisher War Zone* afterall.


----------



## E (Jun 29, 2012)

Es said:


> Just read Fearless and battle Scars along with the AA tie in's along with Youth in Revolt and Alpha Flight and your good for FI tie ins. YMMV with the main event itself



noted, thanks

i'll add those to my "i'll-get-to-it-eventually" list since i just might be compelled to read the whole thing due to my ocd


----------



## shit (Jun 29, 2012)

Es said:


> Just read Fearless and battle Scars along with the AA tie in's along with Youth in Revolt and Alpha Flight and your good for FI tie ins. YMMV with the main event itself



all these books suck and don't result in anything relevant

skip FI altogether as it fails to actually change anything

AvX is ok if you want to check it out, but you don't have to
the only essential books to know what's going on is the main AvX book and Uncanny X-Men


----------



## Petes12 (Jun 29, 2012)

Uncanny x-men isn't necessary at all either. But its good


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2012)

Uncanny helps make AvsX not shitty


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2012)

reading the avx 7 preview, I'm afraid they are now reverting their direction :-/


Like turning Scott's PR master stroke into a petty smear campaign


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 29, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> about as many times as scott summers can get brutally stabbed and not curl down to a fetal position



Genetic deviants know better than relying on pure-blood human healthcare.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 29, 2012)

Pretty every comic was shit this week, including WaXM. Except Spider-Men and FF


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2012)

watxm had moments that made me groan and moments that made me smile, and x:legacy was pretty

I like Rogue


AvsX is not shaping up too well though


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 29, 2012)

*Rumour Checklist For The Marvel Relaunch*






> We?ve been running a number of stories over the last few weeks looking at rumoured new creative teams for existing books, and for new books. The word is that you?re going to see a bunch of them start again from issue  ? but this is not a line wide relaunch in the same fashion as the New 52 ? and it won?t be a continuity replacement either. You may see a lot of newly designed characters however? it also looks as if it may start in November, if the Captain America timeline is anything to go by.
> 
> Amyway, this is a checklist so far of what we?ve heard. Some will be right. Some will be wrong.
> 
> Hopefully we?ll be finding out in the next few weeks.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jun 29, 2012)

Avengers by Hickman and Ribic.

My body is ready for this


----------



## Kanali (Jun 29, 2012)

I've heard great things about Hickman so I'm interested in checking out his Avengers. I've never been an Avengers fan but maybe he can turn it around for me. As for Nova, I'm not interested unless Richard Rider is back. 

And by "bi-weekly X-Men book" do they mean they're making it one book again as opposed to Uncanny and Wolverine and the X-Men? If so, finally because the whole Schism thing sucked big time. I just hope Cyclops remains in charge and that they don't do something stupid like go back to the school and pretend San Francisco and Utopia never happened.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2012)

Judging by the academics shown in the last WATX issue, I'd say it's already like Schism never happened

Psychic self defense, and the "you should have stayed in school to learn how to kill every living creature in the universe"


----------



## Kanali (Jun 29, 2012)

Yeah, I think Wolverine has been so obsessed with Scott's sanity that he's starting to go a bit crazy himself


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 30, 2012)

cyclops nuthugging and wolverine hatin... I don't like where this is going.


----------



## Rasendori (Jun 30, 2012)

I think Wolverine knows that his classes are named so lightheartedly. Imagine having kids like Quire, and Kid Gladiator being even less enthused by the classes without those kind of names.


----------



## Bender (Jun 30, 2012)

What's shocked me about Wolverine's latest transition was actually being the headmaster of a school. Dude is drinking huge numbers of coffee and everything. I miss Wolveriine when he was a chain smoking cigar bro, and downing a beer every five minutes.


----------



## shit (Jun 30, 2012)

pretty sure WatXM stays, and Bendis is writing UXM and X-Men perhaps consolidated into one bi-weekly book

also hurrah for the death of New Avengers
but wth is Assemble still doing in existence


----------



## Bender (Jun 30, 2012)

Btw who are you guys cheering for during the AVX conflict? Avengers or X-men?


----------



## shit (Jun 30, 2012)

gillen                  .


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 30, 2012)

so cheering for this shit to end, if it wasn't for forums I'd be totally lost in what's going in WatXM because you know it suddenly went from fighting the hell fire club brat's to everyone fighting each other... in like two issues  marvel and their event boner can go to hell for all I care.


----------



## shit (Jun 30, 2012)

haha, everyone's realizing what a mess WatXM is

aaron can't handle an ongoing centering around more than two characters


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 30, 2012)

aubro said:


> haha, everyone's realizing what a mess WatXM is
> 
> aaron can't handle an ongoing centering around more than two characters



he was doing fine until AvX started and watxm turned into a tie in and everything went out the window. common kid gladiator the guys your headmaster, why U beating him senseless and wolvie couldn't he have tried to sound like he regretted takin the kid out, I'm not even going to start on Rachel and logan


----------



## Bender (Jun 30, 2012)

lol lol lol lol

It's a damn shame Joss Whedon couldn't be given control of the event. Seeing "The Avengers" film they should recognize his writing prowess.


----------



## Kanali (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm cheering for the X-Men but I already know how this ends. The Phoenix Five lose control and everyone unites to stop them. The Avengers come out on top because the X-Men need to be underdogs and thats how it'll always be 

And why would Kid Gladiator have any respect for his headmaster? He's the son of the ruler of a galactic empire and he's stronger than Wolverine by far. Personally I never cared for Wolverine and the X-Men. I think Wolverine's reasons for leaving Utopia were stupid, I greatly dislike the art and the stories have been extremely meh so far. The only thing I've enjoyed is Angel and Kid Apocalypse.


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 30, 2012)

Kanali said:


> And why would Kid Gladiator have any respect for his headmaster? He's the son of the ruler of a galactic empire and he's stronger than Wolverine by far. Personally I never cared for Wolverine and the X-Men. I think Wolverine's reasons for leaving Utopia were stupid, I greatly dislike the art and the stories have been extremely meh so far. The only thing I've enjoyed is Angel and Kid Apocalypse.


then fuck off and go read about about cyclops boning emma in uncanny x-men and enjoy that fantastic greg land artwork.
Chris bachalo is far better than the trash that's on the book btw.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 30, 2012)

It's not a crime not to like Bachallo, and not think wolverine should be able to pressure point someone of a race of planetbusters, or watching summers give a tyrant speech about wanting sacrifice in others.


----------



## shit (Jun 30, 2012)

at least we get a break from Land half the time

Bachalo was off WatXM a month ago, and it was a breath of fresh air

Backalo's not a bad artist and his style is certainly interesting, but the page design in WatXM usually sucks out loud


----------



## shit (Jun 30, 2012)

why do wolverine and deadpool fans flip out over the slightest criticism? 
especially when it's all warranted
is it b/c it's all warranted?
how juvenile


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 30, 2012)

With that said, Rachel Grey worked great as a character this issue, which is something extreemly rare for me to relate to when it comes to dimensional crap like her.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 30, 2012)

Specially that part where logan and cap throw that caustic rethoric they used on AVX 5 at her and she just goes "bite my ass Rogers"

I also liked to see Thor making fun of namor's tightpants but was disappointed when he didn't respond by attempting to tea bag him


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 30, 2012)

aubro said:


> at least we get a break from Land half the time
> 
> Bachalo was off WatXM a month ago, and it was a breath of fresh air
> 
> Backalo's not a bad artist and his style is certainly interesting, but the page design in WatXM usually sucks out loud


wait wat!? bradshaw drew issue 4 to 7 of watxm, that's a good 4 month break bachalo took and then bachalo drew another two issue before bradshaw came back for 1 issue so 7 bachalo 5 bradshaw.


----------



## Parallax (Jun 30, 2012)

I like WATXM certainly much more than UXM (which I think is good)

the event certainly did hurt a lot of momentum it had though

fucking events


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 30, 2012)

aubro said:


> why do wolverine and deadpool fans flip out over the slightest criticism?
> especially when it's all warranted
> is it b/c it's all warranted?
> how juvenile


wait I'm a wolverine fan now?  lool. 


Banhammer said:


> With that said, Rachel Grey worked great as a character this issue, which is something extreemly rare for me to relate to when it comes to dimensional crap like her.


I liked the tension around her and was happy when she made the right decision in the end, as for possessed cyclops making his daughter from the future hunt mutants again... sick fucker... god I hate cyclops.


----------



## shit (Jun 30, 2012)

well point is that page design has to do with the writer just as much if not more than the artist

I don't think bachalo is a good fit for aaron, and thus the book suffers

I don't think the idea for WatXM is a good fit for aaron either

I'd much prefer him back on Wolverine or a solo book like that


----------



## shit (Jun 30, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> wait I'm a wolverine fan now?  lool.





Narutossss said:


> cyclops nuthugging and wolverine hatin... I don't like where this is going.



are you kidding?


----------



## Parallax (Jun 30, 2012)

actually you are wrong about the page design Shit, at least for Marvel

they just write a script with no page layout or design and give it to the artist and let them have free reign


----------



## Narutossss (Jun 30, 2012)

aubro said:


> well point is that page design has to do with the writer just as much if not more than the artist
> 
> I don't think bachalo is a good fit for aaron, and thus the book suffers
> 
> ...


Bachalo has been great on watxm except issue 9  honestly couldn't tell what the fuck was going on in that space battle between beast and sabertooth. I've also really enjoyed aarons writing on this book, it's just so much fun and a breath of fresh air from all the over the top war, heroes vs heroes crap. I just love the vibe I get from the book, the interaction between the students and really the lightheartedness of everything and most of all NO CYCLOPS!!!!! 


aubro said:


> are you kidding?


yes I like wolverine alot but I'm not a Wolverine fan I'm an x-men fan, I don't even read all those Wolverine books anyway, plus I think it's stupid how he can be in every fucking book at the same time, he's far too over wanked but he beats cyclops any day of the week.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 30, 2012)

Bender said:


> Btw who are you guys cheering for during the AVX conflict? Avengers or X-men?



Olivier Coipel.


----------



## LIL_M0 (Jun 30, 2012)

Pax Utopia


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 30, 2012)

that would make a nice tatoo

"Pax Utopia"


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jun 30, 2012)

I for one am ready for our phoenix mutant overlords


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm avengers side but, I gotta admit AVX makes my WatXM lose momentum


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 30, 2012)

it would help not make the avengers look likea bunch of horrible clowns if they at least tried to use the Ultron Wars timeline as an excuse for their terrible behavior


----------



## shit (Jun 30, 2012)

Narutossss said:


> Bachalo has been great on watxm except issue 9  honestly couldn't tell what the fuck was going on in that space battle between beast and sabertooth.



yes that's the issue that made me fed up with WatXM actually

but other things, such as the hellfire brats and the no real direction for the book were the kindling for the fire that issue sparked

honestly, this book being fodder for this event has everything to do with there not being much going on in it in the first place

I remember Weden's Astonishing X-Men during Civil War, which he kept completely out of the event because he was doing big things and making a critically and publicly adored comic book

aaron's not doing that and thus he doesn't mind having his comic putz around to make this event seem more important

the comic is a terrific idea, but it hasn't gotten past the idea stage in fucking 12 issues

of course neither has Academy, but different strokes for different folks I guess


----------



## Bluebeard (Jul 1, 2012)

THIS MEANS WAR looks terrible.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2012)

A Punisher event? How is that going to work?

I remember when they did an event around a character that never got event-status or involvement -- Daredevil. And Shadowland was crap for characterization.


----------



## Petes12 (Jul 1, 2012)

its probably just a punisher storyline or relaunching the book with a new title

i hope its the rucka/chechetto team


----------



## Bluebeard (Jul 1, 2012)

Looks to me that they're implying Punisher will take on the Avengers.


----------



## Petes12 (Jul 1, 2012)

I'm guessing punisher does something that sets the avengers on him


----------



## Blinky (Jul 1, 2012)

Uncanny X-men is good n stuff


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 1, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> I'm guessing punisher does something that sets the avengers on him



Help an old lady across the street?
Get a non-diet cheesburger?


----------



## creative (Jul 1, 2012)

remember that one book where punisher killed the marvel U?

yeah, that was awful.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jul 1, 2012)

Finally decided to catch up on AvX and honestly, if it wasn't for Uncanny(one of my favorite books period) and #6, I'd have absolutely dropped this turd. I'll give the main book two more issues to grab me, but it's not looking too good right now.

Still amazes me how asshole-ish and stupid the Avengers have come off as so far(are we sure all the Skrulls are gone yet?) and they're supposed to end up being right about all of this, too? Fuck a bunch of that shit, Marvel. Why are they on this "there's no right or wrong side" bullshit kick, anyway? It's sucked ass every single time they've tried so far(CW/Schism/AvX currently).


----------



## shit (Jul 1, 2012)

because it sells?


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 1, 2012)

Actually, it sort of worked for schism
It just sucked in how it worked.
Whenever anyone other than Logan made a case, you'd get it.
When Rogue says "yeah, we both have to teach algebra and ass kickery, we just think diverge on the emphasis of which" or when gentle says "we must live the way we want to world to be, even if it comes at a cost to us", or iceman and kitty's moment of decision, or the one reason that made Piotr decide not to go, I get it and I'm totally engaged and sympathetic with that dynamic

When the center of the story is "YOU LOST YOUR WAY YOU BASTARD NOW DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE" then I really won't give anything positive to it


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jul 1, 2012)

aubro said:


> because it sells?






Banhammer said:


> Actually, it sort of worked for schism
> It just sucked in how it worked.
> Whenever anyone other than Logan made a case, you'd get it.
> When Rogue says "yeah, we both have to teach algebra and ass kickery, we just think diverge on the emphasis of which" or when gentle says "we must live the way we want to world to be, even if it comes at a cost to us" I get it and I'm totally engaged and sympathetic with that dynamic
> ...


Agreed.


----------



## LIL_M0 (Jul 1, 2012)

Wait. You guys actually like Uncanny X-Men?


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 1, 2012)

one doesn't merely like uncanny x-men


One simply strives to survive another week without it


----------



## Kanali (Jul 1, 2012)

What's not to like about Uncanny X-Men?


----------



## shit (Jul 1, 2012)

LIL_M0 said:


> Wait. You guys actually like Uncanny X-Men?


----------



## Petes12 (Jul 1, 2012)

Kanali said:


> What's not to like about Uncanny X-Men?



the art. but its great anyway


----------



## Id (Jul 1, 2012)

LIL_M0 said:


> Wait. You guys actually like Uncanny X-Men?



Solid Book. Namors characterization is fucking


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 1, 2012)

Posts like that is why I'm happy mo doesn't post here much


----------



## LIL_M0 (Jul 2, 2012)

Aside from the battle cry, Namor (or, douchebag Aquaman, as I like to call him) has always been a boring character. Sinister is terribly uninteresting, and I just don't give a crap about Cyclops and Emma's relationship drama. The only good thing is that Magneto is on the roster.


----------



## Petes12 (Jul 2, 2012)

honestly m0 have you even tried reading it?

it sounds like you haven't even given gillen's run a chance, it is totally lacking cyclops/emma melodrama. gillen makes pretty much every character on the roster interesting or fun to read. except magik


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2012)

I disagree
I like reading Sadistic Demon Lady


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2012)

I decided I liked Magik ever since she had the gall tal walk into the young mutants faces who were flipping their shits and frothing at the mouth over her presence after what she did to pixies sould and she just taunts him and laughs with "come on, it was just a taste" while all of her team mates were flummoxing around
Specially when dacosta goes ahead and chides anole for even having grievances regarding her presence

In a book that started out pretty shitty, Bastard Illyana was the only fun aspect of it, maybe even because of it.


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 2, 2012)

Yep yep, demon Illyana is pretty awesome.

That said, Gillen doesn't actually do anything with Illyana, does he? I can't remember any characterization she's had in the Uncanny book, besides the issues where Piotr becomes Juggerlossus.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2012)

She does little else other than shuttle duty, and managing Piotr, in and out of their cell.
But you get to enjoy that differently because of demon lady Illyana


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 2, 2012)

Thats what I thought. Still, she does retain her creepyness, which is fun, so I can't really complain.

One thing I've been wanting from Gillen is a Magneto arc. His Point One issue hinted at it(to me at least). But it never happened.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2012)

it would only piss us off more once bendis turns mags back into a bad guy


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 2, 2012)

I suppose that true, for you guys at least. I'm dropping Uncanny once Bendis comes on.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2012)

I'll check it out, but my expectations are rather low


----------



## creative (Jul 2, 2012)

the only reason I've yet to try uncanny-xmen is because I lost pace with picking up greg pak's hulk and alpha flight. the last x-books I read was astonishing and uncanny x-force. I'm not about to back track astonishing because Liu is a pretty bad writer and I hear the re-numbering for uncanny doesn't make .... uncanny any easier to jump into.


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jul 2, 2012)

Uncanny X-Men is good, you should try it


----------



## shit (Jul 2, 2012)

skip the stuff with fraction's name on it, get the stuff with gillen's name on it
as long as you know what schism and avx are, you'll be able to keep up
also since you've read uxf, you'll follow the couple issues that have to do with that
a lot of the issues are self-contained though, which adds to the superb reading experience


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Jul 2, 2012)




----------



## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2012)

considering the quality I will place a whole nickel in how Wolverine becomes an avatar for the phoenix force

But a stable one, because of snikt bub  snikt


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jul 2, 2012)

I am the incarnation of Life and Death bub


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 2, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> considering the quality I will place a whole nickel in how Wolverine becomes an avatar for the phoenix force
> 
> But a stable one, because of snikt bub  snikt



Like in Astonishing Spider-Man and Wolverine?


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 3, 2012)

Guess whos back?



Also, Cyclops' look is fugly


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jul 3, 2012)

How the hell is that mask even practical with his powers? Why the fuck does he need that shitty ass re-design anyway when his normal costume is just fine? And that looks like the shitty dime-store Nova that started this AvX mess. I WANT RICHARD RIDER BACK, GODDAMNIT!!!!!


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 3, 2012)

Its too early to be hating on the new Nova. We've had 2 depictions. Loeb's supershit one, and Waid's decent one. So long as they explain the new Nova decently (and don't put someone like Loeb in charge of him), then its all good.

I'd rather have a new iteration of the Nova Corps than have Rich's sacrifice undone poorly.


----------



## Petes12 (Jul 3, 2012)

i guess a lot of characters are getting new looks, but really another with iron man? ok yeah it makes sense he upgrades, but, ya know, it doesn't look good. it looks worse than the current one which looks worse than extremis did.

also 
*Spoiler*: __ 



unsurprised by jean grey, she's like the closest marvel's ever had to wonder woman in terms of really big popular female characters. wonder what this means for hope though. not to mention emma


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jul 3, 2012)

is that from Ultimate universe?

god I curse the day they made Cable as Wolverine's future self


----------



## Petes12 (Jul 3, 2012)

no its the main universe


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 3, 2012)

Michael Lucky said:


> is that from Ultimate universe?
> 
> god I curse the day they made Cable as Wolverine's future self



I thought that was pretty neat.


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jul 3, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> no its the main universe



wait what? but Nick Fury is black there 



Bergelmir said:


> I thought that was pretty neat.



well in its own story it was alright

but Nathan Summers


----------



## tari101190 (Jul 3, 2012)

So are these the new team of Avengers, or just a promo image?

I wonder if Cyclops will be on the Avengers. That would be as suprise.

I like all the new costumes though to be honest.


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 3, 2012)

Michael Lucky said:


> wait what? but Nick Fury is black there


From what I've read on the CBR forums, this is the story on the black Nick Fury: Nick Fury knocked up some black chick years ago. The kid was named Nick Fury Jr. The kid grew up to be Marcus Johnson, then got attacked and had his left eyeball cut out. Then he decided to grow a mustache via sheer force of will, shaved his head, and decided to wear Steve Roger's old uniform.

I'm certain the actual story is even worse than it sounds.



> well in its own story it was alright
> 
> but Nathan Summers


Ah, I see. Yeah, we did end up missing out on Ultimate Nate. But hey, he could still be introduced in the future.


----------



## Michael Lucky (Jul 3, 2012)

That's actually canon 

and also I disliked how Ultimate X-Men is a Wolverine and his mutant friends comic


----------



## tari101190 (Jul 3, 2012)

> A CBR post claims the article accompanying the image reveals three new series: *Uncanny Avengers, written by Rick Remender and starring Captain America, Thor, Wolverine, Rogue and Havok*; a biweekly Avengers written by Jonathan Hickman and with more than 18 members on the team; and *X-Men written by Brian Michael Bendis, with the five original X-Men* traveling to the present-day Marvel Universe, which, if accurate, could explain EW's cryptic story on Jean Grey and the cropped image (below).



I do like all the new costumes, but I hope Iron Man and Thor are not wearing black.

I noticed that Spider-Man;s costume still has not changed, yet everyone else's has.

Does that mean that Spider-Man's costume if 'timeless' and perfect?



Bergelmir said:


> From what I've read on the CBR forums, this is the story on the black Nick Fury: Nick Fury knocked up some black chick years ago. The kid was named Nick Fury Jr. The kid grew up to be Marcus Johnson, then got attacked and had his left eyeball cut out. Then he decided to grow a mustache via sheer force of will, shaved his head, and decided to wear Steve Roger's old uniform...


Well actually a Nick fury villain was after the infinity formula in his blood so he went after a child they found out he had. Marcus, who is an army ranger/soldier, eventually gets captured and they take out his eye as a joke about 'not seeing the resemblance' (and needing a dna sample). Then Nick fury saves him. SHIELD recruits him, and Cap gives him that costume after having met earlier. It was still kinda forced, and I was against the concept to bring black nick fury to 616, but it wasn't really terrible.If you didn't read it yourself, then you just sound kinda stupid to be honest.


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 3, 2012)

Eh, if I sound stupid, then I sound stupid. But I did read part of the first issue. And it was shit. I couldn't even finish it. And your expanding on the plot didn't make it sound any better.


----------



## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

you both sound stupid

cuz it was a stupid thing to happen


----------



## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

>original 5 x-men come from the past by bendis

oboy here we go


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

SAVE US DOCTOR DOOM


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

Oh my god, Thor is wearing Swords

What are you people doing to yourselves..


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 3, 2012)

shit said:


> you both sound stupid
> 
> cuz it was a stupid thing to happen


Hey. I always sound stupid. Which is why I prefer to lurk. 



Banhammer said:


> Oh my god, Thor is wearing Swords
> 
> What are you people doing to yourselves..



*checks* Holy crap. 

Also, is that a Skrull Captain America? His face looks kinda green.


----------



## Taleran (Jul 3, 2012)

I was expecting something interesting but not this.

X-Men Story

*Spoiler*: __ 



ALL NEW X-MEN: Brian Bendis takes on the most eccenctric and controversy-baiting Marvel NOW! book. The pitch: The original five teenage X-Men time-travel to the present day. “Here’s the big question that the original X-Men are gonna be faced with: ‘We’re gonna grow up and this is what we’re going to to get? That is not acceptable.” NOV. 2012




Avengers

*Spoiler*: __ 



AVENGERS: The updated series promises a diverse sprawling cast that goes far beyond the movie lineup. “It’s not six Avengers it’s 18 or more” says writer Jonathan Hickman. AVENGERS will be bi-weekly and will feature a combination of one-off stories and longer, galaxy-spanning multi-issue arcs. DEC 2012




Uncanny Avengers

*Spoiler*: __ 



UNCANNY AVENGERS: Writer Rick Remender mixes Avengers characters like Captain America and Thor together with such X-Men as Rogue and Havok in the flagship title of Marvel NOW! “It’s a bridge book” says Remender “something that can delve into both worlds.” OCT 2012.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jul 3, 2012)

Bendis's X Men comic sounds hilariously bad. I love how he has the "Oh don't worry, character drama!" disclaimer in there.

Oh and I really hope editorial/overall decisions don't make this too bittersweet for me, because Hickman's avengers sounds like exactly what I want from avengers.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

The worse part of redesign, asides from having snikt bub sitting front and center, is that somewhere someone in this world look at condom head's costume and said "You know what that needs? Blood red with two slant lines coming from the center and around the skull"

And a board of editors said yes


So what are we going to call scott's costume now? Vampire penis head? daredevil dildo head?


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



ALL NEW X-MEN: Brian Bendis takes on the most eccenctric and controversy-baiting Marvel NOW! book. The pitch: The original five teenage X-Men time-travel to the present day. “Here’s the big question that the original X-Men are gonna be faced with: ‘We’re gonna grow up and this is what we’re going to to get? That is not acceptable.” NOV. 2012



Fuck you Bendis


----------



## Taleran (Jul 3, 2012)

Scott is now X-FACE!


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

And he'll spend every page shouting Jean? JEAN! JEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!


And everyone will cry at his sad story not realizing he's just asking for a pair of sensible pants


----------



## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

lmao x-face

poor scott


----------



## Bergelmir (Jul 3, 2012)

Wow. Hickman sure loves his humongoid casts. I'm curious to see what obscure characters he'll throw in.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

I also like the black iron man, black thor, black nova and black fury


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

And yet, no Venom


----------



## Kanali (Jul 3, 2012)

So is this new X-Men series replacing Uncanny and Wolverine and the X-Men or is it just replacing the current Adjectiveless X-Men? 'Cause if they're shoehorning the X-Men into Uncanny Avengers, I'mma be mad 

I'm okay with no Venom, I never really got into Flash as Venom. Needs less angst and more symbiote


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## Bluebeard (Jul 3, 2012)

Good lord. The new Avengers cast is fucking huge.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm crying right now, I'm quite serious. There are tears dripping down my face at this

WHAT DID I DO TO DESERVE THIS!?!?!??!


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## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

trust in remender and hickman


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## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 3, 2012)

faget

You mispelt Gillen

faget


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## Whip Whirlwind (Jul 3, 2012)

I trust in them, I don't trust in the people who are ultimately responsible for deciding the general structure of the marvel U.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 3, 2012)

You're all brainwashed, they shit on you constantly and you lap it up


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## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

marvel has hickman, remender, gillen, david, and...
well that's pretty good right there
I'm hopeful this will all turn out splendidly, x-men nonwithstanding


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## Kanali (Jul 3, 2012)

Unfortunately David only writes X-Factor. I would kill for him to write X-Men as well.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 3, 2012)

And they also have Bendis, Fraction and low-ebb


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## Whip Whirlwind (Jul 3, 2012)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> You're all brainwashed, they shit on you constantly and you lap it up



How are we lapping this up? I'll read Hickman's Avengers and give remender's a shot, but this does look pretty bad.

Like I said, I trust Marvel's writers (bendis aside), but I don't trust their management, who I think are making most of these line restructuring decisions.


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## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

Kanali said:


> Unfortunately David only writes X-Factor. I would kill for him to write X-Men as well.


he also writes dark tower, you should be reading it


Whip Whirlwind said:


> How are we lapping this up? I'll read Hickman's Avengers and give remender's a shot, but this does look pretty bad.
> 
> Like I said, I trust Marvel's writers (bendis aside), but I don't trust their management, who I think are making most of these line restructuring decisions.



actually getting his hands on as many toys as he can sounds like something hickman would request
he does like to make broad strokes which affect as much continuity as possible

uncanny avengers sounds like out-the-box thinking right up remender's alley as well

and something as dumb as that x-men idea could only come from someone as pompous as bendis

I think you're off base


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## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 3, 2012)

You trust a few of them, the rest are not even worthy of having their names mentioned in the small chance they may derive some power and glory from it 

But I'm overreacting and know what they're really doing. Since Bendis did Dissassembled Marvel has always been about changing the status quo every year because they cannot do anything else original

Bets on how many issues before Marvel makes Galactus an Avenger?


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## Kanali (Jul 3, 2012)

@shit

I didn't know that, I'll check it out thanks


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## Bluebeard (Jul 3, 2012)

^^

Galactus as an avenger would be pretty fucking awesome.


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## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

actually hickman has already laid the ground work for that, lol


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## Taleran (Jul 3, 2012)

Big disquieting thought, art teams nowhere to be seen in these announcements the art becomes more just a cog in the machine and not important.


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## Slice (Jul 3, 2012)

shit said:


> he also writes dark tower, you should be reading it



I always wanted to read that since i read the novels but never got around to actually do it. I didnt even know it was by David.


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## Taleran (Jul 3, 2012)

> Promising to impact all major Marvel characters, "Marvel NOW!" will start in October with the debut of "Uncanny Avengers" #1, and continue until February of 2013 --  launching one or more new titles every week. That's a minimum of about 20+ new titles.



FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK


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## Petes12 (Jul 3, 2012)

also,

1) lol at that x-men story. hard to believe thats the premise to a whole book and not some wacky arc by gage or slott

2) I guess hickman can handle a big cast, it worked in future foundation, but still a lot of those minor characters got very little to do. especially that power pack kid


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## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

Taleran said:


> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK



Now you're just tossing my salad, this is just like the time they said they would kill a character every two weeks to boost sales


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## Taleran (Jul 3, 2012)

Totally not: Edgar Wright Talks 'Ant-Man' Progress And More In New Podcast

Also it does list artists which is cool.


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## Whip Whirlwind (Jul 3, 2012)

Taleran said:


> Big disquieting thought, art teams nowhere to be seen in these announcements the art becomes more just a cog in the machine and not important.



Yeah I noticed that as well. Really depressing direction for mainstream superhero comics, and marvel seems to be leading the charge.


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## Bushido Style (Jul 3, 2012)

Time traveling Jean Grey and black Nick Fury doesn't sound good at all. I'm fine with the costume changes for the most part though. Thor looks like a boss. 



Taleran said:


> Totally not: Edgar Wright Talks 'Ant-Man' Progress And More In New Podcast
> 
> Also it does list artists which is cool.





> That's a minimum of about 20+ new titles. There will be both relaunches of existing titles and the return of old favorites we haven't seen in a good long while.



Well damn, count me interested. 

All in all, I understand why Marvel is doing this and I'm glad. No complaints over here.


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## Slice (Jul 3, 2012)

Someone must post that "I do whatever he does" pic from letsbefriendsagain, i cant find it right now but it has never been more relevant.


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## Petes12 (Jul 3, 2012)

on the plus side they finally realized the classic captain america look is kinda stupid


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jul 3, 2012)

Taleran said:


> I was expecting something interesting but not this.
> 
> X-Men Story
> 
> ...


...

...

...

...

...

*RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE*


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## Bushido Style (Jul 3, 2012)

At least with this move, The main Avengers title will finally be good. Hickman did some cool stuff with The Fantastic Four so we'll be seeing some interesting  ideas on the Avengers side.

Black Panther will probably be in the roster since Hickman seems to love the character.


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## Michael Lucky (Jul 3, 2012)

WAAAAIT they're actually doing this to the X-Men


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## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm sure most of those 20 will be minis


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## Petes12 (Jul 3, 2012)

or they're relaunching every book the way dc did, just without the reboot


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## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

I heard they were ready to copy that if it proved successful
but since DC's sales have plummeted since the boot, I figured marvel took a pass


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## Whip Whirlwind (Jul 3, 2012)

I thought DC's sales were largely the same? But yeah they're basically going to copy DC aside from rebooting continuity. Which makes sense since Marvel's continuity is so flexible already.


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## shit (Jul 3, 2012)

I meant plummeted in regards to when the #1s hit


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## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

We're going to grow up to become
-> Leader of the unified mutant race
-> Professor to countless youths
-> Avenger
-> Spiritual Guru
-> Cosmic Entity

And they're going to be emo about it?

Bendis


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## Petes12 (Jul 3, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> We're going to grow up to become
> -> Leader of the unified mutant race
> -> Professor to countless youths
> -> Avenger
> ...



most of the mutant race was wiped out by a giant sentinel and a magic wish, they're endangered, living on a rock, not integrated with human society at all. they've got a decent reason to be pissed.


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## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

That's hardly a reason to be angry at their adult selves
I mean, there's at least seventeen apocalypse scenarios that they avoid on a constant basis
Hell, everyone knows the drill, as long as summers doesn't get anyone pregnant, then you're probably safe, because his bastard his always the jhon connor that has to travel back in time and save everyone
Hope Summers, Rachel Grey, Nate Summers, Ruby Summers, the guy is like what would happen if Doctor Who's main character was Robert Baratheon


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## Petes12 (Jul 3, 2012)

didnt say they were mad at their older selves


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jul 3, 2012)

Al Capone said:


> A Punisher event? How is that going to work?
> 
> I remember when they did an event around a character that never got event-status or involvement -- Daredevil. And Shadowland was crap for characterization.





Lex Luthor said:


> Looks to me that they're implying Punisher will take on the Avengers.





Petes12 said:


> I'm guessing punisher does something that sets the avengers on him



Does anybody remember the Avengers involvement in Daredevil: Born Again?

That's how you do it with class.



Shadow Replication 1480 said:


> Still amazes me how asshole-ish and stupid the Avengers have come off as so far(are we sure all the Skrulls are gone yet?) and they're supposed to end up being right about all of this, too? Fuck a bunch of that shit, Marvel. Why are they on this "there's no right or wrong side" bullshit kick, anyway? It's sucked ass every single time they've tried so far(CW/Schism/AvX currently).



I've started to wonder if years down the pike we'll be looking back at this era as being The Asshole Avengers (just like the 90s were The Bomber Jacket Avengers).



Banhammer said:


> it would only piss us off more once bendis turns mags back into a bad guy



Someone will do it eventually, might as well.



Banhammer said:


> Oh my god, Thor is wearing Swords
> 
> What are you people doing to yourselves..



Maybe Balder, Sif, the Warrior Three, they're all dead and Thor's carrying their wares like a survival horror protagonist.



Banhammer said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Didn't a 90s X-story do something like this? Only it was future nobodies meeting the present legends.



shit said:


> he also writes dark tower, you should be reading it



Yes but now that it's started to adapt the novels I've already read, I'm in no hurry.



omg laser pew pew! said:


> Bets on how many issues before Marvel makes Galactus an Avenger?



Only because they won't have the balls to Avengerize this instead:





Petes12 said:


> on the plus side they finally realized the classic captain america look is kinda stupid



Brevoort said not that long ago that it's an enduring iconic look despite the inherent silly, so that can't be it.

They're probably after the filthy casual dollar again.


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## Banhammer (Jul 3, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> didnt say they were mad at their older selves



that's what I got out of the 





> ?We?re gonna grow up and this is what we?re going to to get?


 bit


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## Petes12 (Jul 3, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> that's what I got out of the  bit



yeahhhh or maybe theyre talking about their whole species getting wiped out


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## Tazmo (Jul 3, 2012)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread *Here*


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