# Monkey D Luffy vs Spiderman



## Jinibea (Jun 30, 2008)

All Blood lust.

Location is Eniss lobby.

spiderman isn't allowed to throw luffy into the water.
And they fight in the middle of a buster call.


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## C. Hook (Jun 30, 2008)

Easy win for Luffy. Gear 2=Too fast for Spidy. Also, Luffy has access to Gear Giganto, possibly the most devastating attacks in his arsenal. Luffy's much faster and stronger than Spiderman, although the battlefield will make this not too much of a rape.


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## Crimson King (Jun 30, 2008)




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## Banhammer (Jun 30, 2008)

Gear 2 is not to fast for spidey, and if he goes halfway out with the webs, he can trap him and then hurl him in the ocean.


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## Kuya (Jun 30, 2008)

I don't even know if Luffy will need his gears.


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## HumanWine (Jun 30, 2008)

In B4 lock.


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## Rashou (Jul 1, 2008)

Luffy rapes. Spidey's webs would do next to nothing. Assuming Luffy gets tagged, he'd just pull Spidey to him and pound him into the ground. Spidey wouldn't be able to hurt Luffy as blunt damage will just bounce off him. And really, that's about all that Spidey has. Meanwhile Luffy has his base form moves- I don't see Spidey being able to dodge through a Gomu Gomu no Gattling. Spider sense will help, but that would really only prolong a fight that Spidey can't win. If it comes to it and Luffy can't tag him in base form, going Gear 2nd would give him a pretty nice chance for a hit. 

Spiderman vs. Alabasta Luffy would be a much better fight.


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## skiboydoggy (Jul 1, 2008)

Web + Throw into ocean seems a mighty attractive proposition right now.


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## lambda (Jul 1, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Gear 2 is not to fast for spidey, and if he goes halfway out with the webs, he can trap him and then hurl him in the ocean.


 Yes he is, base Luffy is already far above bullet timing, and Gear 2 Luffy is ten times faster than that.


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## Aokiji (Jul 1, 2008)

Luffy squished that puny spider.


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## Green Lantern (Jul 1, 2008)

Old fight is old.. I'll find the old one and merge it


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## Jinibea (Jul 1, 2008)

Hmmm I see.I thought this would be a good matchup.But how can luffy rape stomp Spiderman easily.


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## Gary (Jul 1, 2008)

Luffy rape spidey sorry to say and every one else already brought up the facts


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## Ax_ (Jul 1, 2008)

Luffy is easily stronger than Spiderman here...and he is faster even in his base form.

In his Gear 2 form, this turns into a bloody rape.

Luffy wins this with ease.


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## Ryuk (Jul 1, 2008)

Gum Gum Rocket solos.


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## TonyG416 (Jul 1, 2008)

lambda said:


> Yes he is, base Luffy is already far above bullet timing, and Gear 2 Luffy is ten times faster than that.



um, that says next to nothing about his actual movement speed, yes he can bullet time. but what about his actual moving speed? there are many fictional characters that can bullet time but not actually move as fast as bullets move, sorry but what you are saying has no relevant to his movement speed. also, where did you get ten times faster from?


Here are some scans from Amazing Spider Man #536 I brought. ( this is to show that spidey is no push over here.)














Ryuk said:


> Gum Gum Rocket solos.



hardly.




Rashou said:


> Spidey wouldn't be able to hurt Luffy as blunt damage will just bounce off him.



lucci disproved this, he nearly *beat* luffy to death.


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## C. Hook (Jul 1, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> um, that says next to nothing about his actual movement speed, yes he can bullet time. but what about his actual moving speed? there are many fictional characters that can bullet time but not actually move as fast as bullets move, sorry but what you are saying has no relevant to his movement speed. also, where did you get ten times faster from?



So, are you saying that, despite Luffy's superior strength, Spidy will win due to him merely having fast reaction speed? Okay...




TonyG416 said:


> Here are some scans from Amazing Spider Man #536 I brought. ( this is to show that spidey is no push over here.)



Can anyone explain what the hell is happening in these scans? All I see is Spidy jobbing Iron Man.


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## Tash (Jul 1, 2008)

I feel a 75 page explanation of the obvious coming on, I wonder why.

And FYI Luffy's punches stretch, a fast reaction speed is all he needs, ignoring that he overcomes the reactions of bullet-timers with his movement speed.


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## TonyG416 (Jul 1, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> So, are you saying that, despite Luffy's superior strength, Spidy will win due to him merely having fast reaction speed? Okay...



did I give that impression? sorry if so, I was merely stating that luffy isn't as fast bullets simply because he can react to them.




> Can anyone explain what the hell is happening in these scans? All I see is Spidy jobbing Iron Man.



well, to make it short, US government wants to make a superhuman registration act ( ) and ironman is for it, which causes a rift among the superhuman community. Everyone takes a side, preparing for war. spidey initially was with ironman, but changed sides.....from there you should be able to put the pieces together.


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## TonyG416 (Jul 1, 2008)

Swajio said:


> I feel a 75 page explanation of the obvious coming on, I wonder why.



Stereotyping me huh?



> And FYI Luffy's punches stretch, a fast reaction speed is all he needs, ignoring that he overcomes the reactions of bullet-timers with his movement speed.



look, all I am saying is that luffy can't actually move as fast as bullets simply because he can react to them, I know that luffy has other means of getting close to spidey for an attack.


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## lambda (Jul 1, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> um, that says next to nothing about his actual movement speed, yes he can bullet time. but what about his actual moving speed? there are many fictional characters that can bullet time but not actually move as fast as bullets move, sorry but what you are saying has no relevant to his movement speed. also, where did you get ten times faster from?


Luffy moved faster than Blueno's soru,  Zoro moved twice as fast as a cannonball, and quite freely admit that Luffy is better than him. Plenty of movement speed there. 



TonyG416 said:


> Here are some scans from Amazing Spider Man #536 I brought. ( this is to show that spidey is no push over here.)


 What are these supposed to prove? Spidey is a class 25, Luffy has displayed in excess of class 100 strength since Alabasta. Current Luffy could one-shot Parker.


TonyG416 said:


> lucci disproved this, he nearly *beat* luffy to death.


 Do you even read One Piece? It's not Lucci punches that almost killed Luffy.


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## Tash (Jul 1, 2008)

Even if it was Lucci's punches, Lucci is far stronger than Spiderman so it really wouldn't matter.


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## TonyG416 (Jul 1, 2008)

lambda said:


> Luffy moved faster than Blueno's soru,



thats not sufficient enough to say that he is above bullet movement, blueno just moves fast, thats all you really have.



> Zoro moved twice as fast as a cannonball, and quite freely admit that Luffy is better than him. Plenty of movement speed there.



when has zoro moved twice as fast as a cannonball? and if I am not mistaken, don't bullets move faster than cannonballs? they both break the sound barrier from what I have been googling so far. ( someone please elaborate if you can.)



> What are these supposed to prove? Spidey is a class 25, Luffy has displayed in excess of class 100 strength since Alabasta. Current Luffy could one-shot Parker.



those scans where meant to prove that spidey is no push over, everyone here was saying he gets one shotted and its over, which is false. My scans where meant to elaborate more on that. but on another note, are you trying to say that everyone luffy has hit can take class 100 punches and above? 



> Do you even read One Piece? It's not Lucci punches that almost killed Luffy.



yes, I do read one piece, and from what I was reading. luffy was feeling the blows lucci was giving him. his almost dieing was also partially because luffy was physically being whaled on.


Also, here are some powers and abilities most of you may not know of spidey……( currently…..)




> Biological/Organic Webbing Generation: After the "Disassembled" saga, Spider-Man was also gifted with the ability to organically produce his own silk webbing from glands within his forearms, limited by his body's health and nutrition. These organic webs have many of the same properties as Spider-Man's artificial webbing, though they require a week to decay rather than decomposing within two hours. Thanks to its similar properties, it appears Spider-Man can utilize his organic webbing in any way he could with his artificial webbing. The silk is released through a spinneret near each wrist containing a central web spigot orifice used for web-slinging and drag lines, supplemented by several radial minor spigots for other types of webs connected to specialized glands
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bullet (Jul 1, 2008)

Lucci had claws to fight Luffy with, I don't recall Lucci ever hurting Luffy with punches.


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## ?cureuil fou (Jul 1, 2008)

> Stingers: Spider-Man developed retractable, poisonous, razor-sharp stingers that are located within his arms that release a polyamine venom, causing direct trauma and/or flaccid paralysis via interference with nerve impulse transmission. While a typical injection may paralyze a normal adult human for several hours, the impalement proved fatal to the nigh-invulnerable Morlun. How it pierced Morlun's skin is yet unknown, and may involve mystical factors Parker has subconsciously extended his stingers in response to stress and is still learning greater control.



Spidey Rapes


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## TonyG416 (Jul 1, 2008)

Bullet said:


> Lucci had claws to fight Luffy with, I don't recall Lucci *ever *hurting Luffy with punches.



Link removed

And the following chapter..... ( look at the bottom, and luffy's face.)

Link removed

Though it may not have been much, this does however prove that physical blunt blows effect luffy.


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## Jinibea (Jul 1, 2008)

True but Spiderman has not shown any power that can match Lucci so Luffy wins.


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## Hamaru (Jul 1, 2008)

Spiddy is good but I don't think he will beat Luffy.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 1, 2008)

Spider-mans is da light speedz, he avoidis dem LaseZbeamZ and can web-up the heavenz! Lulz @ Luffy being able to stop dat. Spider-manz got dez spiedid-sense 2 boluge everythang! He to magile for Tuffy.

Doncht thunk uyu knnewe Spider-meins if yu don't realizeeef he too strong. dat spdder even beat a Herald and Hulk. You show me scans of Luffy beating someone Ftl and with world shhhattering POWER. That's class strneght!

SPIDERMAN RAPES


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## Gunners (Jul 1, 2008)

Luffy would beat Spiderman to death. Spidey has no way of harming Luffy, Luffy has many ways to turn spiderman into mush.


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## Banhammer (Jul 1, 2008)

Spiderman can web luffy and throw him in the ocean

And when the hell has luffy ever shown class 100 feats without Plot Plot no Mi??


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## jiraiya 58 (Jul 1, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> um, that says next to nothing about his actual movement speed, yes he can bullet time. but what about his actual moving speed? there are many fictional characters that can bullet time but not actually move as fast as bullets move, sorry but what you are saying has no relevant to his movement speed. also, where did you get ten times faster from?
> 
> 
> Here are some scans from Amazing Spider Man #536 I brought. ( this is to show that spidey is no push over here.)
> ...



but lucci had powers that didnt only involve beating to a pulp and furthermore he did beat luffy half to death but that doesnt mean luffy is
weak lucci is around 4x the strenth of spiderman and gear 3 would anhilate a building much less spiderman


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## Banhammer (Jul 1, 2008)

All feats that have been replicated by bloodlusted spiderman


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## C. Hook (Jul 1, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Spiderman can web luffy and throw him in the ocean



Which requires catching him.



Banhammer said:


> And when the hell has luffy ever shown class 100 feats without Plot Plot no Mi??



What's class 100 strength? One hundred tons? Two hundred? Five hundred? Luffy's greatest strength feats have been A.) Lifting a gold ball that ways more than 300 tons, and B.)Smashing the bedrock below Alabasta and leveling the entire city block. Neither of those feats involved Plot Plot no Mi.


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## Jinibea (Jul 1, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Spiderman can web luffy and throw him in the ocean
> 
> And when the hell has luffy ever shown class 100 feats without Plot Plot no Mi??



Well Spiderman has to be fast enough to catch Luffy.
And luffy was jumping into the sky while slaming enel with a 3 ton gold ball.And Ussop can carry a 10 ton hammer.


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## C. Hook (Jul 1, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> Well Spiderman has to be fast enough to catch Luffy.
> And luffy was jumping into the sky while slaming enel with a 3 ton gold ball.And Ussop can carry a 10 ton hammer.



Erm... You're a bit off on the weight of the ball. Multiply that number by about 100.


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## BAD BD (Jul 1, 2008)

Spiderman dodges lazers.


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## Jinibea (Jul 1, 2008)

Luffy dodges Rankays.Rankays can destroy buildings and Steel battle ships.And coming from lucci who was spamming out 5 at a time.And this was base luffy.


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## Arishem (Jul 1, 2008)

Spiderman is class fucking 25. He can't do shit to Luffy.

@C. Hook
He also pushed two 100+ feet tall buildings apart in a position where he could barely use any of his strength.


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## Tendou Souji (Jul 1, 2008)

Spidey has a stealth mode. Parker in his Stark suit would absolutely destroy Luffy.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jul 1, 2008)

Irvine Kinneas said:


> Spidey has a stealth mode. Parker in his Stark suit would absolutely destroy Luffy.



Nope. Luffy has super sharp  Instincts?.


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## Banhammer (Jul 1, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> Which requires catching him.



Wich he does?
Not only he can catch him, the nifty things about spider webs is that they trap people


> What's class 100 strength? One hundred tons? Two hundred? Five hundred? Luffy's greatest strength feats have been
> A.) Lifting a gold ball that ways more than 300 tons,


That is not a class 100 feat
Try holding up a skycraper, and then you can talk to spiderman, he who has faced many people stronger than that.


> and B.)Smashing the bedrock below Alabasta and leveling the entire city block. Neither of those feats involved Plot Plot no Mi.



Punched a hole through a city that rested on a slab of stone(formed by condensated sand), this slab by the way, had the weight oof a full city causing pressure on it.
Karate teachers snap stone bars with the same principle.
Strengh of a pneumatic stake hammer, undoubtly, class 100, not really...


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## lambda (Jul 1, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Wich he does?
> Not only he can catch him, the nifty things about spider webs is that they trap people


 Luffy wasn't fordidden to dodge last I checked, and he can break free with no difficulty.



Banhammer said:


> That is not a class 100 feat
> Try holding up a skycraper, and then you can talk to spiderman, he who has faced many people stronger than that.


Lifting over 100 tonsmakes you class 100. Holding up a skyscraper is not necessary against someone who can be killed by a handgun.



Banhammer said:


> Punched a hole through a city that rested on a slab of stone(formed by condensated sand), this slab by the way, had the weight oof a full city causing pressure on it.
> Karate teachers snap stone bars with the same principle.
> Strengh of a pneumatic stake hammer, undoubtly, class 100, not really...


 Slab? Condensated sand? What are you talking about? Luffy punched Croc through hundred of feets of bedrock with enough force for his exit to destroy an entire cityblock and have him flying up for hundreds of meters. And Croc is considerably less suited for that than a stake. That's the kind of punch Spidey couldn't survive.

This is a curbstomp.


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## Jinibea (Jul 1, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Wich he does?
> Not only he can catch him, the nifty things about spider webs is that they trap people
> 
> That is not a class 100 feat
> ...



OMG OMG.!!!!!!!!!.A skyscraper.Man if only there was something more amazing like pushing and Breaking two buildings that you where squezed into and you could barely breath.or Maybe something like Jumping over a hundred feet carrying a 3ton Golden ball tossing it around like it was a regular punch.
But I mean man Holding a Tiny Skyscraper that is something incredible.

Sarcasm.


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## Tendou Souji (Jul 1, 2008)

lambda said:


> Lifting over 100 tonsmakes you class 100. Holding up a skyscraper is not necessary against someone who can be killed by a handgun.


The point was he's beaten stronger people. A skyscraper can be up to 500,000 tons. He beat a person like that before. He's beaten a person who is stronger than the Hulk in Morlun. That plus his stealth suit and stingers makes for a win for Spidey.

Also, last time I checked Luffy doesn't use handguns.


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## Tash (Jul 1, 2008)

I can't believe you're using who beat who logic for a comic character, let alone spiderman who jobs horribly. And Luffy's punches are much stronger than a handgun, that was the point.


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## HumanWine (Jul 1, 2008)

Why is Spiderman being wanked up to Captain America's jobber level?

I mean really


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## Tendou Souji (Jul 1, 2008)

Swajio said:


> I can't believe you're using who beat who logic for a comic character, let alone spiderman who jobs horribly. And Luffy's punches are much stronger than a handgun, that was the point.


Whoopdee doo. His punches are stronger than a handgun. Spidey has fought people stronger and won. That's why he wins. 

Also, Spidey wouldn't die simply from a gunshot.


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## Arishem (Jul 1, 2008)

Ooook, this is just plain retarded. Luffy punches hard enough to knock guys over the horizon. A single Gomu Gomu no Gattling will turn Spiderman into an ugly blue and red stain. Make this shit on CBR & KMC and you'll get the same responses.


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## Tash (Jul 1, 2008)

Irvine Kinneas said:


> Whoopdee doo. His punches are stronger than a handgun. Spidey has fought people stronger and won. That's why he wins.



Proof by example fallacy, like myself and others have said, Spiderman jobs like hell. Bad-writing aside, most of the people Spiderman fights would kill him rather easily.


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## Tendou Souji (Jul 1, 2008)

Swajio said:


> Proof by example fallacy, like myself and others have said, Spiderman jobs like hell. Bad-writing aside, most of the people Spiderman fights would kill him rather easily.


I know most of the people he fights would kill him pretty easily but they don't. The writers are what keep him alive, just like Plot Plot no Mi keeps Luffy alive. Hell, if Luffy hadn't been rubber he'd be DEAD. People are making it out to be a one-hit win.

Also, I just remembered that current Spidey had time altered by Mephisto to save May so he doesn't have his post Morlun strength anymore. In that case Luffy wins. I still think Spidey at his peak could beat Luffy though.


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## Tash (Jul 1, 2008)

Irvine Kinneas said:


> I know most of the people he fights would kill him pretty easily but they don't. The writers are what keep him alive, just like Plot Plot no Mi keeps Luffy alive. Hell, if Luffy hadn't been rubber he'd be DEAD. People are making it out to be a one-hit win.



Which is irrelevant since we aren't basing Spiderman winning off of who he's fought.


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## Crimson King (Jul 1, 2008)

The thread should have ended when I posted that curbstomp pic. What is Spider-man going to do to Luffy? Punch him? Trap him in webbing? Toss him off a building? Luffy is going to laugh, go gear 2, and turn Spider-an into a red splatter against the floor.


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## Michael Myers (Jul 1, 2008)




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## Gunners (Jul 2, 2008)

> Spiderman can web luffy and throw him in the ocean
> 
> And when the hell has luffy ever shown class 100 feats without Plot Plot no Mi??


Spiderman knows of Luffy's weakness? He would rip the webbing and punch Spiderman square in the face.


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## skiboydoggy (Jul 2, 2008)

Eh, doesn't that web trap Iron Man?


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## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2008)

Or, he would rip the first webbing, then spidey would go all out, luffy wouldn't even moove from the webbing, and then spidey, fully aware that they're in an island, would throw him on the ocean because that's the wuickest way to coool a loud boy's nerves, and get him out of his face.





Jinibea said:


> OMG OMG.!!!!!!!!!.A skyscraper.Man if only there was something more amazing like pushing and Breaking two buildings that you where squezed into and you could barely breath.or Maybe something like Jumping over a hundred feet carrying a 3ton Golden ball tossing it around like it was a regular punch.
> But I mean man Holding a Tiny Skyscraper that is something incredible.
> 
> Sarcasm.




Oh please, a comic effect feat with a plot impact is still about as good a a Herald slaying spiderman. Giving it his all
Not to mention that, not only that is a spider-man level feat, as I would have you reminded that those buildings that old buildings and water for a foundation.
Lol @ tiny skyscrapers.
Even without reading the scan, any halfwit would remember spiderman lives in New York, and when I say Skyscraper in New York, that means a serious building, not a six floor from the pirate ages.

And where the hell are you taking those numbers of alabastra from
What I saw was punching through a slab of Sandformed stone.
Break a point, break the slab, it's hook's law.
Mike Scofield once broke a whole by using the same principle, I gues that makes him a class 50

Brook cries, bleeds from his nose, and grows bumps, even though he's just bones, does hat mean he has a healing factor


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## mystictrunks (Jul 2, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> That is not a class 100 feat
> Try holding up a skycraper, and then you can talk to spiderman, he who has faced many people stronger than that.
> .



Class 100 goes from Colossus level to Superman Prime level . . . . .

SMH @ Class 10 BND Spiderman winning this.


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## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2008)

Brand New Day never happened and there's nothing you can say that'll tell me that'll convince me otherwise

LALALALALLALALALALALALLALALALALLALALAALLALALALALALALALALLALALALALALALALLALALALALALALALLALALALAX3


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## Jinibea (Jul 2, 2008)

Spiderman has Shown no power to Hurt luffy.Sanji in one piece said that physical Blunt attacks are lowered by half.So Spidermans hits would be lowered.To Half.Spidey doesn't have Luffys speed and you know that.Spiderman gets hurt by regular attacks.Luffy got hit by an attack that can destroy Buildings and Battle ships and Survived  with no Scratch on him.Spidey has shown nothing to compete with that.Oh and that pic you showed of spiderman speed I can counter that...With Zoro.
Zoro in his sleep dodged a kunai.When spiderman can dodge a bullet in his sleep then we wil talk.


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## ?cureuil fou (Jul 2, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> When spiderman can dodge a bullet in his sleep then we wil talk.



There's this thing, it's called Spider-Sense. Look it up.


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## Kuya (Jul 2, 2008)

Insane_Squrriel said:


> There's this thing, it's called Spider-Sense. Look it up.



Yeah, Luffy beat Enel's "Spider-Sense".


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## Jinibea (Jul 2, 2008)

Insane_Squrriel said:


> There's this thing, it's called Spider-Sense. Look it up.



okay here is one thing.When spiderman can defeat enemies like Lucci and Enel then we will talk.


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## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2008)

He did not
He was in fact pretty powerless against it, but Enel work's difrently than spidey, because Enel needed to know where luffy wanted to punch
Spiderman has no such drawback


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## Crimson King (Jul 2, 2008)

Insane_Squrriel said:


> There's this thing, it's called Spider-Sense. Look it up.





It doesn't matter. Luffy is fast enough to rip Spider-man's head off before he can react. Spider-man cna have all the precog in the world. It doesn't help when his opponent is so fast he can speedblitz spider-man as soon as the match begins.


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## BAD BD (Jul 2, 2008)

Crimson King said:


> It doesn't matter. Luffy is fast enough to rip Spider-man's head off before he can react. Spider-man cna have all the precog in the world. It doesn't help when his opponent is so fast he can speedblitz spider-man as soon as the match begins.



He dodges lasers.


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## Jinibea (Jul 2, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> He did not
> He was in fact pretty powerless against it, but Enel work's difrently than spidey, because Enel needed to know where luffy wanted to punch
> Spiderman has no such drawback



What are you saying!! Luffy beat Enel and Luffy.And spiderman will never be able to Enel because Spiderman can't touch lightning.


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## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> He dodges lasers.



And Luffy is faster than Zoro who does the same thing, obvious usage of his sense aside.


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## TonyG416 (Jul 2, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> What are you saying!! Luffy beat Enel and Luffy.And spiderman will never be able to Enel because Spiderman can't touch lightning.



um, what does that have to do with anything? spidey isn't fighting enel so what you are saying has no relevant here, and lol, wasn't the whole ?he beat him? argument stated to be not acceptable here anyways?




Crimson King said:


> It doesn't matter. Luffy is fast enough to rip Spider-man's head off before he can react. Spider-man cna have all the precog in the world. It doesn't help when his opponent is so fast he can speedblitz spider-man as soon as the match begins.




Once more, show me scans of luffy moving faster than bullets and not just reacting to them. spidey has been shown to be able to react to rain falls of ammunition being fired at him, Simple punches simply aren?t going to suffice for luffy here.



Jinibea said:


> okay here is one thing.When spiderman can defeat enemies like Lucci and Enel then we will talk.



If I where you I wouldn?t try to play that game, spidey?s list of adversaries he has taken out pretty much shit on op itself. Playing that game really isn?t going to help you.  oh and sandman is a stated 85 tons combatant ( in standard strength level without increasing it and adding on more strength.) spidey has taken multiple hits by this guy and has even defeated him, so luffy one shotting spidey is really out of the question. Additionally ( something most people are forgetting here.) spiderman is a very resourceful bastard, he can use his environment to defeat his opponents for him and constantly analyzes his opponent for weakness.


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## C. Hook (Jul 2, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> Once more, show me scans of luffy moving faster than bullets and not just reacting to them. spidey has been shown to be able to react to rain falls of ammunition being fired at him, Simple punches simply aren?t going to suffice for luffy here.



Whiskey Peak Zoro dodged bullets after they had left the barrel. He also did THIS, which is far more impressive than any bullet timing.

Chapter 282, Page 19
Chapter 282, Page 19

Do you see what he did there? He managed to swing someone into bullets that were closer to him. This means he was able to to use his physical strength to pull someone at a rate MUCH faster than bullet-speed.

Also, Shigan, a CP9 technique, moves the finger faster than a bullet. Luffy has dodged shigans while they were already in motion.



TonyG416 said:


> If I where you I wouldn?t try to play that game, spidey?s list of adversaries he has taken out pretty much shit on op itself. Playing that game really isn?t going to help you.  oh and sandman is a stated 85 tons combatant ( in standard strength level without increasing it and adding on more strength.) spidey has taken multiple hits by this guy and has even defeated him, so luffy one shotting spidey is really out of the question. Additionally ( something most people are forgetting here.) spiderman is a very resourceful bastard, he can use his environment to defeat his opponents for him and constantly analyzes his opponent for weakness.



Show me how Spidy can beat Lucci. SHOW ME. Lucci cut a steel plated warship in half with one rankikyu, and that's no where near his strongest attack. Besides, how the fuck is Spidy going to figure out Luffy's weakness to water? 

You also seem to forget that Spidy doesn't move faster than bullets himself. Therefore, according to your logic, he cannot hit Luffy.


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## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> Whiskey Peak Zoro dodged bullets after they had left the barrel. He also did THIS, which is far more impressive than any bullet timing.
> 
> link to profile
> link to profile
> ...



Yes, he was so obviously faster than bullets that FOUR people had time to speak in order with God knows how long in between them
But then again, sound in one piece is Supersonic right?


> Also, Shigan, a CP9 technique, moves the finger faster than a bullet. Luffy has dodged shigans while they were already in motion.


I just read Ennis Lobby and can easly call your bullshit



> Show me how Spidy can beat Lucci. SHOW ME. Lucci cut a steel plated warship in half with one rankikyu, and that's no where near his strongest attack. Besides, how the fuck is Spidy going to figure out Luffy's weakness to water?


Not fighting lucci, so it therefore matters not
He knows he has to throw luffy in the ocean, because he's in an island with constant view to the ocean, and with someone that has expierience and long time contact with Reed Richards, he's more than well aware than trapping and making distance is the best way to go
This is all things he would figure out if he had half a brain to work with
But this is Peter Parker


> You also seem to forget that Spidy doesn't move faster than bullets himself. Therefore, according to your logic, he cannot hit Luffy.



And you seem to forget that Gupowder age single bullets have got SHIT on modern age machineguns, and that spider man has beaten faster characters than what luffy has shown.


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Yes, he was so obviously faster than bullets that FOUR people had time to speak in order with God knows how long in between them
> But then again, sound in one piece is Supersonic right?


Dialogue in all forms of fiction happen at whatever speed is convenient for the plot. Not only could I point out instances of confirmed sound speedsters talking while fighting, but some of common thugs talking and grunting while spiderman is hopping around.



> I just read Ennis Lobby and can easly call your bullshit


There's nothing to call, shigan has hit bullet-timers.



> Not fighting lucci, so it therefore matters not
> He knows he has to throw luffy in the ocean, because he's in an island with constant view to the ocean, and with someone that has expierience and long time contact with Reed Richards, he's more than well aware than trapping and making distance is the best way to go
> This is all things he would figure out if he had half a brain to work with
> But this is Peter Parker


Besides the fact Spiderman is going to die before he gets a chance to use it, Enies Lobby is a huge largely enclosed island. The chance of him successfully restraining Luffy, and then dragging him somewhere with access to the ocean is zero. And he's a rubber man, even if he was caught he could just contort himself out of the web.




> And you seem to forget that Gupowder age single bullets have got SHIT on modern age machineguns,


Which might matter if he wasn't dodging the aim.



> and that spider man has beaten faster characters than what luffy has shown.



Like who? Be aware that we aren't currently accepting cases of blatant jobbing.


----------



## C. Hook (Jul 2, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Yes, he was so obviously faster than bullets that FOUR people had time to speak in order with God knows how long in between them
> But then again, sound in one piece is Supersonic right?



You know what? The above part was so stupid, I'll just post an article that shows just how easily it's countered.





Banhammer said:


> I just read Ennis Lobby and can easly call your bullshit



You're denying that Luffy has dodged shigans? He dodged several in his fights against Blueno and Lucci. Heck, NAMI has dodged shigans, and she's nothing compared to Luffy. Shigans clearly move faster than regular bullets, since fingers are much less dense than lead.



Banhammer said:


> Not fighting lucci, so it therefore matters not



Tony said Spidey shits on Lucci. I'm countering his point.



Banhammer said:


> He knows he has to throw luffy in the ocean, because he's in an island with constant view to the ocean, and with someone that has expierience and long time contact with Reed Richards, he's more than well aware than trapping and making distance is the best way to go
> This is all things he would figure out if he had half a brain to work with
> But this is Peter Parker



That's assuming Parker can even hit Luffy. Unless you post scans showing Parker can move faster than bullets, he isn't hitting Luffy.



Banhammer said:


> And you seem to forget that Gupowder age single bullets have got SHIT on modern age machineguns, and that spider man has beaten faster characters than what luffy has shown.



Like who? Jobbing not included.


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 2, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> Whiskey Peak Zoro dodged bullets after they had left the barrel. He also did THIS, which is far more impressive than any bullet timing.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



that still doesn't mean he can actually *move his* entire body faster than bullets, all that is being shown to me is bullet timing by zoro.......despite the thread being about luffy......go figure.



> Also, Shigan, a CP9 technique, moves the finger faster than a bullet. Luffy has dodged shigans while they were already in motion.



for starters, under what basis are getting the assumption that shigan moves * faster*  than bullets? where was this stated? where are the calculations to support this? please elaborate more. Additionally, even if I agree that shigan moves faster than bullets, that still puts luffy at the exact same spot, bullet timing. Nothing more.



> Show me how Spidy can beat Lucci. SHOW ME.



That?s rather random, why do I have to show this? The thread is intended for luffy and spiderman. Not lucci ( who has a whole different power set.), but hey, if that?s the way you want to play it. Than how do you think luffy would fair against sandman?



> Lucci cut a steel plated warship in half with one rankikyu, and that's no where near his strongest attack.



Can luffy do such? If not, this is really irrelevant. oh and FYI, that attack wasn?t just a regular Rankyaku. Its name and overall size and power indicate that it was probably one of his strongest. Luffy was tanking almost all of lucci?s other Rankyaku in the Beginning of the fight, but the one you mention was the only one he dodged because he knew it would kill him. ( thus above the other previous Rankyaku's that where fired.)



> Besides, how the fuck is Spidy going to figure out Luffy's weakness to water?



Did I say this? Don?t remember doing such?..if you want a way spidey can win or hurt luffy than spidey can just use his stingers.



> You also seem to forget that Spidy doesn't move faster than bullets himself. Therefore, according to your logic, he cannot hit Luffy.



Luffy isn?t as smart as peter is, peter will use the environment to his advantage in order to later web luffy, and than get close enough to sting him. ( thus attaining victory.)


----------



## Kuya (Jul 2, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> What are you saying!! Luffy beat Enel and Luffy.And spiderman will never be able to Enel because Spiderman can't touch lightning.



ehhh, even tho I'm voting for Luffy to win this fight I have to disagree with this statement. Spidey took out Electro who is just as deadly as Enel. And although it's bullshit, he beat a herald of Galactus. Spidey has taken out tougher opponents, but Luffy would still beat the shit out of him.


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

Tony, why the fuck are you still harping on his movement speed when I countered that on the first page?

He pretty much won all those fights because of the writers, not because he's an exceptionally good fighter. Electro, Sandman, Fire Lord, would all dispose of him rather easily if they didn't suffer from DumbFuck Villain Syndrome.


----------



## Jinibea (Jul 2, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> um, what does that have to do with anything? spidey isn't fighting enel so what you are saying has no relevant here, and lol, wasn't the whole ?he beat him? argument stated to be not acceptable here anyways?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Luffy also analyzes his opponents.Plus how would buildings help spiderman if luffy is faster then spiderman and luffy can just Destroy them.What good would spidermans webs do if Luffy can just dodge.And let me ask you.Can spiderman destroy a building with his fist.Can spiderman destroy steel with his fist.Spiderman isn't as fast as luffy.Spiderman can't Dodge bullets.And if Luffy can destroy steel with his fist what how in the world will Webs keep him in.

And do to the Fact im a loving bastard and I made this match up Im making a rule where Spiderman can't throm luffy into the ocean.This fight is now a man to man fist fight.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jul 2, 2008)

I don't have any investment with this debate, but Peter has also being hit by Rhino, who is like Class 80 and fights with the Hulk, and wasn't pasted by it.

Also isn't Peter at the level of dodging continuous fire by multiple modern machineguns? He wouldn't be a low end bullet-timer in any case.


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 2, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> Tony said Spidey shits on Lucci. I'm countering his point.




Correction, I do believe that I stated that Spiderman’s enemies shit on op. which is true, I never mentioned Spiderman himself doing such. Please don’t twist my words.




> That's assuming Parker can even hit Luffy. Unless you post scans showing Parker can move faster than bullets, he isn't hitting Luffy.



Not necessarily, spiderman is far smarter than luffy, he has been in many situations where he was outclassed in just about every way. But he uses is head in order to still attain victory. The same will happen here.





> Like who? Jobbing not included.



I am sure there are a couple speedsters he faced and still won……I shall search threw issues and scans if you really want some through though…..


----------



## C. Hook (Jul 2, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> that still doesn't mean he can actually *move his* entire body faster than bullets, all that is being shown to me is bullet timing by zoro.......despite the thread being about luffy......go figure.



It clearly shows Zoro pulling someone along faster than a bullet. The person traveled much more distance than the bullets in the scans in the same amount of time. That was Zoro about four hundred chapters ago. Go figure.



TonyG416 said:


> for starters, under what basis are getting the assumption that shigan moves * faster*  than bullets? where was this stated? where are the calculations to support this? please elaborate more. Additionally, even if I agree that shigan moves faster than bullets, that still puts luffy at the exact same spot, bullet timing. Nothing more.



Fingers have less density than lead, and therefore require more speed to cause the same effect.



TonyG416 said:


> That?s rather random, why do I have to show this? The thread is intended for luffy and spiderman. Not lucci ( who has a whole different power set.), but hey, if that?s the way you want to play it. Than how do you think luffy would fair against sandman?



You said Spiderman could beat Lucci, not me.



TonyG416 said:


> Can luffy do such? If not, this is really irrelevant. oh and FYI, that attack wasn?t just a regular Rankyaku. Its name and overall size and power indicate that it was probably one of his strongest. Luffy was tanking almost all of lucci?s other Rankyaku in the Beginning of the fight, but the one you mention was the only one he dodged because he knew it would kill him. ( thus above the other previous Rankyaku's that where fired.)



It wouldn't have killed him. Rokuougun is, quoted by Lucci, the STRONGEST attack available to roukushiki users. Luffy took two Rokuouguns without dying. Internal damage still affects Luffy, as shown when he gets hit by impact dials. Finally, Luffy DID take a rankikyu gouchou during the fight.



TonyG416 said:


> Did I say this? Don?t remember doing such?..if you want a way spidey can win or hurt luffy than spidey can just use his stingers.



How fast to the stingers travel? If it's at the speed of bullets, then we arrive at the same problem. If Spidey can dodge all of Luffy's attacks, then Luffy can easily dodge all of Spidey's.



TonyG416 said:


> Luffy isn?t as smart as peter is, peter will use the environment to his advantage in order to later web luffy, and than get close enough to sting him. ( thus attaining victory.)



How fast do Spidey's webs move?


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> Not necessarily, spiderman is far smarter than luffy, he has been in many situations where he was outclassed in just about every way. But he uses is head in order to still attain victory. The same will happen here.


Argument by example fallacy.


----------



## Jinibea (Jul 2, 2008)

Okay Luffy is Faster then Spiderman yes but lets go to power side.

Okay hasn't shown any amazing physicel attributes that Rob lucci or Blueno have shown.
Sanji said in the manga the physicel attacks are lowered by Half  when you hit luffy.So that means That spidermans hits will not even scratch luffy.As you can see Luffy outclassed spiderman in speed and power and Duribillity.And I can tell you now Wapol is a lot Heavier then spiderman and if Luffy can send him to another country then that means luffy can send spiderman to another country.

Spidi sense-What good would that do.Its basicly just like Enels Mantara predicting attacks.Spidy prbly isn't fast enought to counter luffy.


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

Charcan said:


> I don't have any investment with this debate, but Peter has also being hit by Rhino, who is like Class 80 and fights with the Hulk, and wasn't pasted by it.
> 
> Also isn't Peter at the level of dodging continuous fire by multiple modern machineguns? He wouldn't be a low end bullet-timer in any case.



Class 80 really isn't much for Luffy. And those class 80 punches still fuck him up pretty badly.


----------



## C. Hook (Jul 2, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> Sanji said in the manga the physicel attacks are lowered by Half  when you hit luffy.



He was obviously wrong. Unless, of course, you're saying Luffy can survive island cracking punches without his devil fruit.


----------



## Agmaster (Jul 2, 2008)

People really believe that SPidey could not dodge Gomu Gomu no Gatling?  Really?  GGnG is too fast for spidey to continuously dodge?


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

Yea, it is, considering he was almost capped by a hangun with an incredibly shitty muzzle velocity, for all his spider sense is worth.


----------



## Jinibea (Jul 2, 2008)

There Basicly saying spiderman can dodge all attacks because he can swing from buildings.Spidey can dodge GUM GUM Galating.Croc and Lucci dodge some of Luffy's Gallatings with ease.


----------



## Agmaster (Jul 2, 2008)

And during this almost capping he was at 100% and not distracted by the constant shitstorm his life has been for the past..2+ years?  No physical ailments either?



Jinibea said:


> There Basicly saying spiderman can dodge all attacks because he can swing from buildings.



A =/= B I don't see how those two are related.


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

Agmaster said:


> And during this almost capping he was at 100% and not distracted by the constant shitstorm his life has been for the past..2+ years?  No physical ailments either?



None, that I know of.


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 2, 2008)

the bottom post is addressing Swajio's saying that I am ignoring what he said in the first page...



Swajio said:


> I feel a 75 page explanation of the obvious coming on, I wonder why.
> 
> And FYI Luffy's punches stretch, a fast reaction speed is all he needs, ignoring that he overcomes the reactions of bullet-timers with his movement speed.



Are you referring to this^^ if so, that still doesn’t prove that luffy himself can move his entire body or even his attacks as fast as bullets. I need calcs and educated assumptions on how how he moves faster than bullets.




C. Hook said:


> It clearly shows Zoro pulling someone along faster than a bullet. The person traveled much more distance than the bullets in the scans in the same amount of time. That was Zoro about four hundred chapters ago. Go figure.



Ok, thanks for the explanations, but again. How does this prove that zoro himself can move his body faster than bullets?




> Fingers have less density than lead, and therefore require more speed to cause the same effect.



Well, I would agree with you if cp9 had the same level of physical attributes as regular humans. But they clearly don’t, they could probably still rip threw human tissue without the speed. So, I am going to have to disagree here.



> You said Spiderman could beat Lucci, not me.



Mind quoting me than?



> it wouldn't have killed him.



it would have sliced his head off, thats why he moved away from it.



> Rokuougun is, quoted by Lucci, the STRONGEST attack available to roukushiki users. Luffy took two Rokuouguns without dying. Internal damage still affects Luffy, as shown when he gets hit by impact dials. Finally, Luffy DID take a * rankikyu gouchou*  during the fight.




Is that the same attack lucci cut the ship in half with? 




> If Spidey can dodge all of Luffy's attacks, then Luffy can easily dodge all of Spidey's.



That’s precisely why I am saying that spidey needs to use his brain before attacking.




> How fast do Spidey's webs move?



Doesn’t matter, luffy will be tricked before the webs come his way.


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> the bottom post is addressing Swajio's saying that I am ignoring what he said in the first page...
> 
> 
> 
> Are you referring to this^^ if so, that still doesn?t prove that luffy himself can move his entire body or even his attacks as fast as bullets. I need calcs and educated assumptions on how how he moves faster than bullets.


No you don't, you need to use some common sense. Lets see. Lucci is much faster than characters who react to bullets coming at them, Lucci can't react to Luffy running at him. I could present this scenario to a grade schooler and they could come to the logical conclusion that Luffy moves faster than a bullet.








> Doesn?t matter, luffy will be tricked before the webs come his way.



Incomplete comparison, a fallacy, again. How about explaining HOW Spiderman is supposed to trick Luffy, so we can properly dissect your argument.


----------



## C. Hook (Jul 2, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> Ok, thanks for the explanations, but again. How does this prove that zoro himself can move his body faster than bullets?



It does prove his arms move MUCH faster than bullets at that early stage in the manga.



TonyG416 said:


> Well, I would agree with you if cp9 had the same level of physical attributes as regular humans. But they clearly don?t, they could probably still rip threw human tissue without the speed. So, I am going to have to disagree here.



So are you saying their skin is denser than lead when not going tekkai? Also, shigan merely involves jabbing a finger at high speed, with no strengthening of the muscles from tekkai involved. 



TonyG416 said:


> Mind quoting me than?



I misread your comment, and I'm sorry for that.



TonyG416 said:


> it would have sliced his head off, thats why he moved away from it.



I just proved Rankikyu gouchou isn't as strong as Rokuogun, which Luffy took two of without dying.



TonyG416 said:


> Is that the same attack lucci cut the ship in half with?



Yes, that's the attack Lucci cut the ship in half with.



TonyG416 said:


> That?s precisely why I am saying that spidey needs to use his brain before attacking.



So, how's he going to use his brain to defeat Luffy? 



TonyG416 said:


> Doesn?t matter, luffy will be tricked before the webs come his way.



How will Luffy be tricked? Explain this.


----------



## Agmaster (Jul 2, 2008)

How often has Luffy fought people whose attacks aren't heavily linear?  Foxy?  In that case, it is viable to say Parker could fire (and leave) webbing to catch Luffy in.  Also, I don't see Luffy so strong as to casually tear through the webbing with no effort, er go touching it at all should slow him up some.  Parker keeps webbing (as it's organic now so nigh infinite) and Luffy loses more and more mobility. 

Especially if he gets Luffy is a bad stance to use his strength at.  Kind of like the building thing in Water, but this stuff has a little give so you'd have to overpower it more than if it were brittle.  And no I am not downplaying the building busting, just pointing out leverage and the like.


----------



## C. Hook (Jul 2, 2008)

Agmaster said:


> How often has Luffy fought people whose attacks aren't heavily linear?



WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, MAN??!!

I lost you right there. Seriously, explain what the hell "heavily linear" is supposed to mean.


----------



## Agmaster (Jul 2, 2008)

As in, they attack in straight lines?  Luccy, Croc(aside from draining attacks which were grapples), Kuro(questionable as would often run past Luffy and then attack, but his lack of control over said speed made it a double edged sword), Arlong, Wapol, Ener (any of his attacks that weren't in a straight line were harmless to Luffy, ie lightning), Oz.  They all have straight forward fighting styles designed to overwhelm the opponent.

Faxy on his ship actually used attacks that came from all over the place and that  gave Afro Luffy trouble (obviously stronger than normal Luffy who would have been even more beat down before thinking of using a mirror).  

And there is no need to use all caps and profanity.  You're cool enough on the internet, I was simply expressing a possible vulnerability to Luffy's fighting style (which varies between linear and non linear).


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

The webbing would never even touch him, get over it people. Jesus.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> You know what? The above part was so stupid, I'll just post an article that shows just how easily it's countered.


Yeah, sure THAT or ZORO IS NOT SUPERSONIC
But here we go, I accept that swinging ropes between shotguns
You now have to accept "punching heralds into submission"
Luffy looses


> You're denying that Luffy has dodged shigans? He dodged several in his fights against Blueno and Lucci. Heck, NAMI has dodged shigans, and she's nothing compared to Luffy. Shigans clearly move faster than regular bullets, since fingers are much less dense than lead.


Yet they train their bodies to be "as tough as steel"
Refrase your logic in a way that has no holes please, and when combining two facts in one sentence, do expose how does on have anything to do with the other




> Tony said Spidey shits on Lucci. I'm countering his point.


Good for you. Keep at it.



> That's assuming Parker can even hit Luffy. Unless you post scans showing Parker can move faster than bullets, he isn't hitting Luffy.


...............
Go read a respect thread for spider man capturing guys that can creat ciclons by running around in circles, dodging continuous machineguns multidrectional laser fire with eyes closed (that are ever so much faster than pirate pistols), the one where he mooves away from a bullet after it's fired, the one where he punks X-Men (who fight Mangeto every tuesday), where he beats War Machine (that's air jets speed with super computer level reflexes and titanium resitance by the way) where he crosses the entire island of new york to new jersy in ten minutes, lifting huge scret bases underwater, or sky scrapers in new york, not to mention lifting a full loading train carriage with one finger, and so on, and on.
After you do that, please proceed to ignore ALL of them, and remember that SPIDER MAN can weave SPIDER WEBS (wich have caught speed demon and such) and fuck up with all of luffy's moovements, so any reference to luffy's overly wanked speed, unless he's running on water across entire oceans, is pointless and humiliating.



I'dd like to take this opurtunity remember everyone to please organize their thoughts in a way that is does not sound like arbitrary crap.
On both sides of the argument


----------



## Agmaster (Jul 2, 2008)

Not from direct shots.  But it doesn't matter as there is obviously no way for Parker to hurt Monkey.  If this is true, as the past 4.5 pages have had people screaming, then this thread should be junked.  

Seriously, obd threads with OP characters are just annoying.  Much as I'd love to see an actual fight theorycrafted, whenever they are put in the mix this is pretty much how it goes.


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

This is going to be one of those walking ad nauseum threads isn't it?


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 2, 2008)

Swajio said:


> Class 80 really isn't much for Luffy. And those class 80 punches still fuck him up pretty badly.



Not really, in fact, peter always even makes a sarcastic remark following one of the brutal hits he gets. Also, luffy’s standard strength level isn’t above 80 tons…..or the people he hits really shouldn’t even be able to talk later on, or hell, even have a head on them period.




Swajio said:


> No you don't, you need to use some common sense. Lets see. Lucci is much faster than characters who react to bullets coming at them, Lucci can't react to Luffy running at him.



that proves nothing, if lucci was a confirmed bullet timer and couldn't follow luffy’s movements  than you would have something. ( and no where was it stated that luffy was moving to fast for lucci to react to….bring scans though if I am wrong…..)



> I could present this scenario to a grade schooler and they could come to the logical conclusion that Luffy moves faster than a bullet.



Why? I don't get it.





> Incomplete comparison, a fallacy, again. How about explaining HOW Spiderman is supposed to trick Luffy, so we can properly dissect your argument.




There is one in the bottom of this responds.




C. Hook said:


> It does prove his arms move MUCH faster than bullets at that early stage in the manga.



Yes, maybe so, but that still doesn’t prove that he can move his entire body with that same speed. What you are giving me are just assumptions.…..about zoro ( you think that he can do the same with his entire body.)….despite the thread being about luffy…. 



> So are you saying their skin is denser than lead when not going tekkai?



No, and just so you know, ripping into human skin isn’t that difficult. even without speed, I can at least get pretty close using brute force alone. Cp9 members, I imagine, could do it easily. Without the needed speed.



> Also, shigan merely involves jabbing a finger at high speed, with no strengthening of the muscles from tekkai involved.



No, not really, it is more of a poke you sort of move. High speed is not needed from what I have seen.



> I just proved Rankikyu gouchou isn't as strong as Rokuogun, which Luffy took two of without dying.



How? “Rankikyu gouchou” ( the attack used to cut the ships in half I presume…) was used once, and that was to cut the ship in half. And that once, from my understanding that’s when luffy dodged it. So, if anything, I would say that that attack is above an attack luffy could took twice. Please bring the scan of luffy tanking even one  “Rankikyu gouchou”.




> So, how's he going to use his brain to defeat Luffy?



Well, ( note : I am not as creative as spidey…..so just bare with me……) spidey can just do the usual, keep a good long distance away from himself and luffy and continue to analyze what luffy does. Without say, he should get the obvious notion that luffy is a rubber man and thus, close combat is probably not the best thing to do. so he will swing around enies lobby ( op said.) while luffy just starts yelling “ come back here spider guy, I will send yo flying” than spidey can just start luring luffy to a spot where he can web a small building on luffy, than continue to web him continuously, after that. Luffy, will undoubted be freaking out wondering what is in his face, hands, and feet…..spidey than just comes closer and stings him, if anything happens while he is that close than spider sense should come in handy……that’s all I got. ( I am  sure spidey himself could think of something way better…. )


----------



## C. Hook (Jul 2, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Yeah, sure THAT or ZORO IS NOT SUPERSONIC
> But here we go, I accept that swinging ropes between shotguns
> You now have to accept "punching heralds into submission"
> Luffy looses



Could you please edit this? I can't understand what you're saying.

Besides, I easily countered your point. You said that they could not move at supersonic speeds because of the dialogue. I proved you wrong. 



Banhammer said:


> Yet they train their bodies to be "as tough as steel"



What? Blueno was talking about tekkai when he said that. That part was dedicated to showing us the individual techniques of Rokushiki.




Banhammer said:


> ...............
> Go read a respect thread for spider man capturing guys that can creat ciclons by running around in circles, dodging continuous machineguns multidrectional laser fire with eyes closed (that are ever so much faster than pirate pistols), the one where he mooves away from a bullet after it's fired, the one where he punks X-Men (who fight Mangeto every tuesday), where he beats War Machine (that's air jets speed with super computer level reflexes and titanium resitance by the way) where he crosses the entire island of new york to new jersy in ten minutes, lifting huge scret bases underwater, or sky scrapers in new york, not to mention lifting a full loading train carriage with one finger, and so on, and on.



My comment was about Spidey's speed, not his strength or reaction speed. You just said a shitload of the same "abitrary crap" you were talking about.



Banhammer said:


> After you do that, please proceed to ignore ALL of them, and remember that SPIDER MAN can weave SPIDER WEBS (wich have caught speed demon and such) and fuck up with all of luffy's moovements, so any reference to luffy's overly wanked speed, unless he's running on water across entire oceans, is pointless and humiliating.



Holy shit, this paragraph's annoying. Anyway, let me dissect each point.

Point 1: You think I'll ignore direct feats. What have I exactly done to suggest this?

Point 2: Spiderman's webs can catch Speed Demon... And what are his feats?

Point 3: Luffy's speed is overly wanked by myself... How so, exactly? I'm using evidence and feats, just like any normal debater. 

Point 4: This thread is pointless and humiliating... How? People have given good evidence for both sides, and Luffy definitely is not someone who will just be punked by Spidey in one go. 



Banhammer said:


> I'dd like to take this opurtunity remember everyone to please organize their thoughts in a way that is does not sound like arbitrary crap.
> On both sides of the argument



Ironic much?

What do you call this?

*Refrase your logic in a way that has no holes please, and when combining two facts in one sentence, do expose how does on have anything to do with the other*


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Yeah, sure THAT or ZORO IS NOT SUPERSONIC


And Superman is slower than lightspeed, so is the surfer, Apollo isn't above even sound speed, and Spiderman moves at speeds not much better than peak human, going by your logic of course.



> But here we go, I accept that swinging ropes between shotguns
> You now have to accept "punching heralds into submission"
> Luffy looses


Package Deal fallacy.




> Yet they train their bodies to be "as tough as steel"
> Refrase your logic in a way that has no holes please, and when combining two facts in one sentence, do expose how does on have anything to do with the other


For the second time, they have tagged bullet-timers with it, what are you arguing?







> ...............
> Go read a respect thread for spider man


Stop here.

It's your argument, you provide evidence, not your job to go tell people to find it while you can act like it all happened as you suggest it did.




> capturing guys that can creat ciclons by running around in circles


Unquantifiable.



> , dodging continuous machineguns multidrectional laser fire with eyes closed (that are ever so much faster than pirate pistols),


He. Dodged. The. Aim. Using. His. Precognition. Ability. Not. A. Valid. Speed. Feat.



> the one where he mooves away from a bullet after it's fired,


His one credible speed feat which is sad compared to even some East Blue characters. He moved an inch in the time it took a handgun (many of which fire a subsonic speed) a foot. Barely avoiding it.




> the one where he punks X-Men (who fight Mangeto every tuesday),


Luffy is faster than most X-men. And again, if there's was a good writer on the script, he would die.



> where he beats War Machine (that's air jets speed with super computer level reflexes and titanium resitance by the way) where he crosses the entire island of new york to new jersy in ten minutes,


Scans, post them.



> lifting huge scret bases underwater, or sky scrapers in new york, not to mention lifting a full loading train carriage with one finger,


None of these are comparatively impressive. Luffy pushes building ONE PER HAND in a position that leaves him a small fraction of his overall strength to work with.



> and so on, and on.
> After you do that, please proceed to ignore ALL of them, and remember that SPIDER MAN can weave SPIDER WEBS (wich have caught speed demon and such) and fuck up with all of luffy's moovements,


Spiderman doesn't even have the speed to spin his web before dying.



> so any reference to luffy's overly wanked speed, unless he's running on water across entire oceans, is pointless and humiliating.


Fucking Brooke can run across water. Zoro and by extension Luffy are much faster.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 2, 2008)

Speed Demon is a classic Marvel speedster, capable of running hundreds of miles an hour.


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> Not really, in fact, peter always even makes a sarcastic remark following one of the brutal hits he gets. Also, luffy?s standard strength level isn?t above 80 tons?..or the people he hits really shouldn?t even be able to talk later on, or hell, even have a head on them period.


Remember that gold ball? I would tell you how heavy it was, but you would probably wouldn't believe me, rest assured it's a lot more than 80 tons. People in OP take those hits because they are durable, and for the sake of the plot. And Spiderman always smartasses, even when somebodies mopping the floor with his ass. It's part of his character.






> that proves nothing, if lucci was a confirmed bullet timer and couldn't follow luffy?s movements  than you would have something. ( and no where was it stated that luffy was moving to fast for lucci to react to?.bring scans though if I am wrong?..)


Not being able to follow somebodies movements means zero. It's dependent on a hundred other factors that differ from speed. Moving before somebody can react is a far more solid speed feat.
And you're wrong.
Link removed



> Why? I don't get it.


I can't believe I have to explain this.
If Lucci can react to bullets coming at him, but can't react to Luffy coming at him, it means he's much faster than a bullet.










> Well, ( note : I am not as creative as spidey?..so just bare with me??) spidey can just do the usual, keep a good long distance away from himself and luffy


Which he can't do with Luffy being faster in every way.




> and continue to analyze what luffy does. Without say, he should get the obvious notion that luffy is a rubber man and thus, close combat is probably not the best thing to do.


He can stretch for miles, long-range isn't any better.




> web a small building on luffy,


Which will do nothing considering Luffy can push them off easily with his strength.

Your plan is full of holes.


----------



## C. Hook (Jul 2, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> Not really, in fact, peter always even makes a sarcastic remark following one of the brutal hits he gets. Also, luffy’s standard strength level isn’t above 80 tons…..or the people he hits really shouldn’t even be able to talk later on, or hell, even have a head on them period.



Gold ball. It weighed over 300 tons, and he jumped and attacked while swinging it around.




TonyG416 said:


> How? “Rankikyu gouchou” ( the attack used to cut the ships in half I presume…) was used once, and that was to cut the ship in half. And that once, from my understanding that’s when luffy dodged it. So, if anything, I would say that that attack is above an attack luffy could took twice. Please bring the scan of luffy tanking even one  “Rankikyu gouchou”.



I'm sorry. I did err there. You are right, in that Luffy did NOT get hit by that attack. You are also right in that it would have cut him apart...

fast enough


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

Wapol, and Roguetown among other things.


----------



## Fang (Jul 2, 2008)

Luffy has also punched through a hundred meters of bedrock after being severely poisoned and injured by Crocodile.

He's well above a class 100 hitter.


----------



## Agmaster (Jul 2, 2008)

Whose to say a healthy Luffy is stronger than a determined Luffy?


----------



## Gunners (Jul 2, 2008)

> Whose to say a healthy Luffy is stronger than a determined Luffy?


Is this a serious question?


----------



## Tendou Souji (Jul 2, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> Gold ball. It weighed over 300 tons, and he jumped and attacked while swinging it around.


Did you miss the part where we stated Spidey had lifted a skyscraper. On average a skyscraper is anywhere from 200,000 tons to 500,000 tons. (The WTC were 500,000 tons each according to published records)

Spidey is stronger.


> Remember that gold ball? I would tell you how heavy it was, but you would probably wouldn't believe me, rest assured it's a lot more than 80 tons. People in OP take those hits because they are durable, and for the sake of the plot. And Spiderman always smartasses, even when somebodies mopping the floor with his ass. It's part of his character.


Again, it's 300 tons. WHICH IS NOTHING. Spidey lifted a skyscraper, not that 6-8 floor building crap Luffy pushed apart. People in OP take hits because of PPnM. 

Luffy would easily lose his cool with Spidey taunting him and doing crap like that a lot. Then Spidey would just use that to his advantage.



> I can't believe I have to explain this.
> If Lucci can react to bullets coming at him, but can't react to Luffy coming at him, it means he's much faster than a bullet.


You can't use the bullet crap. Different types of pistols. The pirate pistols are much more flawed and slower than modern pistols and machine guns that Pete dodged.


----------



## Crimson King (Jul 2, 2008)

Never seen Spider-man do that before. Show me a scan of Spider-man lifting a skyscraper.


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

Somebody ban the next retard that says Spiderman dodges machine gun fire. For the hundredth fucking time he uses his spider sense to dodge the aim. My God, it's like spoon-feeding a two-year old with down syndrome.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 2, 2008)

Crimson King said:


> Never seen Spider-man do that before. Show me a scan of Spider-man lifting a skyscraper.



He held one up for a short time. But holding something is a lot different then lifting.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 2, 2008)

And Spiderman dodges the aim, the same thing Batman, Cap, Robin, Nightwing, and hundreds of other street-levelers do. He's truly dodged A bullet once or twice in his 40 year history.


----------



## Jinibea (Jul 2, 2008)

Irvine Kinneas said:


> Did you miss the part where we stated Spidey had lifted a skyscraper. On average a skyscraper is anywhere from 200,000 tons to 500,000 tons. (The WTC were 500,000 tons each according to published records)
> 
> Spidey is stronger.
> 
> ...



He held it.Hell 10 strong man if they tryed can held it.But can he lift it .Lifting takes more power then holding something.Every body that has a name and throws a punch in Manga or a comic can Dodge a pistols.You have flaws.


----------



## Tendou Souji (Jul 2, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> He held it.Hell 10 strong man if they tryed can held it.But can he lift it .Lifting takes more power then holding something.Every body that has a name and throws a punch in Manga or a comic can Dodge a pistols.You have flaws.


You are retarded. There is no way in hell 10 "strong men" could hold up 200,000 TONS. And no, not everyone with a name can dodge bullets in the comic/managverse. 

You have flaws in your points along with grammar and other things.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 2, 2008)

How much of a goddamned difrence does it make if it's thanks to the spidey reflex or not that he dodges machinegun fire (ooh, just remembered, he caught two bullets with his hands a short while before Civil War). It's not like he's a running a marathon


----------



## Tash (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm still waiting to see this skyscraper. And the bullets were being controlled, they dipped, turned and everything, making their speed unknown. And whether you dodge the aim or the bullets makes a huge difference, one requires you be faster than a bullet, the other requires you be faster than some thug's reflexes.


----------



## Jinibea (Jul 2, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> How much of a goddamned difrence does it make if it's thanks to the spidey reflex or not that he dodges machinegun fire (ooh, just remembered, he caught two bullets with his hands a short while before Civil War). It's not like he's a running a marathon



Alright he is fast.But That isn't going to help him beat luffy.Can Spiderman destroy a Building in one hit.Nope.Can.Can he destroy a steel Battle ship.nope.Spiderman has speed.But as you can see he has no Strenght.And we will not use the Skyscraper as a factor until you post Scans.Other then that you have told us next to nothing about spidermans power.Unless you just want to annoy us with your Useless "OMG SPIDERMAN IS GOD I JUST LIKE TO MASTURBATE MY SELF OVER HIM LOL."Luffy curbstomps until you can prove that spiderman has strenght power.


----------



## HumanWine (Jul 2, 2008)

WTF is going on? Spiderman dodges lasers? Spiderman knocking out Heralds? Spiderman lifting skyscrapers? Talk about taking things out of context.

-Spiderman dodges lasers and bullets via spidey sense; he even fucking explains he moves before the weapon is fired. I can only recall on time where this never happened and he truly dodged a bullet but *BARELY*; it nearly skinned him.

-I hope this Herald isnt Firelord. Not only was Firelord being punched plot and spidey sense, he has a slow battle speed compare to other Heralds. He's also kicked Silver Surfer in the face. I dont see your point. Jobbing is jobbing.

-Lifting skyscrapers? Only times I can recalled Spiderman doing anything close to that is when he would replace a building's missing beam with his own body. That is *NOT* lifting a skyscraper. Even if that lie were true, Spiderman would be lifting close to *200,000 tons.* And thats a "small" NYC skyscraper

-Fight Warmachine? And? Spidey's punches are hard enough to knock Ironman's sensors offline.

Stop wanking Spiderman. He's the type of character that doesnt need it.


----------



## RWB (Jul 2, 2008)

I have the issue. Just have to find it first, then I'll show you a scan.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 2, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> How much of a goddamned difrence does it make if it's thanks to the spidey reflex or not that he dodges machinegun fire (ooh, just remembered, he caught two bullets with his hands a short while before Civil War). It's not like he's a running a marathon



If dodging aim counts as dodging bullets then the Bat-Family is filled with Bullet Timers.


----------



## Agmaster (Jul 3, 2008)

Jio said:


> Is this a serious question?



Adrenaline new to you?

aND....OH FUCK IT....IM GOING HOME.  CAPS


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 3, 2008)

Tash said:


> Remember that gold ball? I would tell you how heavy it was, but you would probably wouldn't believe me, rest assured it's a lot more than 80 tons.




chakra surge


no, I doubt it.

here

^^^that right there weighs about 20 tons ( stated to.) and that ball doesn?t look heavier than that machine?so, even If I give you a couple more tons on that, it really wouldn?t make a difference. It is no where near 80 or above.






> People in OP take those hits because they are durable, *and for the sake of the plot.*



There, you have said enough.




> And Spiderman always smartasses, even when somebodies mopping the floor with his ass. It's part of his character


.

True, but being able to do such is a clear representation that he can atleast tank the hits that are being thrown at him. 




> Not being able to follow somebodies movements means zero. It's dependent on a hundred other factors that differ from speed. Moving before somebody can react is a far more solid speed feat.
> And you're wrong.
> Bulima is about 2 times the height of KN4


----------



## BAD BD (Jul 3, 2008)

BTW Luffy wins this easily.


----------



## tanukibeast (Jul 3, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> Link removed
> 
> 
> no, I doubt it.
> ...



You can doubt it, but my calcs say otherwise.
V=4/3*pi*r^3
One cubic meter of gold weighs 21.18 tons.
Low end r=1.5 meters V=14.1345m^3  299.36871 tons
High end r=2 meters V=33.504m^3 709.61472 tons
The gold ball is easily more than 300 tons.


----------



## Tash (Jul 3, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> Link removed
> 
> 
> no, I doubt it.
> ...


Well looks like somebody missed basic chemistry, Different composition, different size, and that machine likely mostly empty air on the inside.








> There, you have said enough.


This changes what I've said, HOW?


.



> True, but being able to do such is a clear representation that he can atleast tank the hits that are being thrown at him.


Yes, he can take hits from characters weaker than base Luffy, without dying, impressive.






> That seems more like a lucky shot than anything else, lucci was able react to everything else luffy did afterwards?.



Shitty cop-out, Luffy blitzed him in a straight dash in front of his face.




> That happened once in the fight, and lucci clearly showed that he can indeed react to luffy, I am inclined to believe that the first time was a fluke. lucci was able to dance around luffy easily after wards??



Now if only you could make it so that didn't happen, and that reaction, and movement speed were the same thing, but it did, they're not, your attempt at rebuttal fails, and my point stands. 






> Even If he is high up in one of the many buildings in enies lobby? I have to disagree here.


You can disagree all you want, it doesn't really matter when Luffy has reached building heights on more than two occasions with his rubber moves.






> Miles? Scans please. ( a bit of a no limit fallacies much?) and once more, spider sense will accommodate spidey in this fight if ever needed. So, a gomu gomu no pistal most probably won?t hit.



Fallacy Fallacy, it would only be a no limits fallacy if I said Luffy can stretch indefinitely. And Spidersense doesn't help when he can't react to what's coming to him. And he's tossed his arms across a good portion of Drum Island fighting Wapol, and far out to sea while escaping Smoker.





> That?s not the point, moving the buildings on top of luffy is merely a means of distraction so the webbings won?t miss, after luffy is completely soaked in webbing. Spidey can come in for the sting, I see no flaws in this.


Your blind, Luffy breaks building in BASE form in a position that leaves him a fraction of his strength, he'll break the building like it wasn't there.






> But at first he could barely move it around. ( notice the veins popping and strain being caused just by merely lifting it?)
> 
> this
> 
> ...



Are you trolling? He ran vertically UP the beanstalk with it attached to his arm and then swung it with enough force to smash Enel and break it.


----------



## Fang (Jul 3, 2008)

I thought the general consensus was around 800 tons for the Skypeida feat on that Gold Ball?


----------



## Tash (Jul 3, 2008)

700 or 800 it still shows Luffy is much stronger than the 80 class villains Spidey jobs on and even stronger than class 25 spidey.


----------



## HumanWine (Jul 3, 2008)

Mirai Gohan said:


> I thought the general consensus was around 800 tons for the Skypeida feat on that Gold Ball?



doesnt matter. Spidey lifts 200,000 ton buildings 

/thread


----------



## Tash (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm still waiting for a scan of that btw.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 3, 2008)

No one believes the Gold Ball was fucking 700+ Tons.

300-400.

&SMH @ Tash: No Sarcasm Detectors At All


----------



## Tash (Jul 3, 2008)

Oh I recognized his sarcasm, I'm still waiting for the pro-spidey team to show me this building lifting. 

Also, math win mystic, math wins.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 3, 2008)

Math says it's 300.


----------



## Tash (Jul 3, 2008)

Post sum math then.


----------



## BAD BD (Jul 3, 2008)

tanukibeast said:


> You can doubt it, but my calcs say otherwise.
> V=4/3*pi*r^3
> One cubic meter of gold weighs 21.18 tons.
> Low end r=1.5 meters V=14.1345m^3  299.36871 tons
> ...



300-700 tons. It could be anywhere in between.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 3, 2008)

tanukibeast said:


> You can doubt it, but my calcs say otherwise.
> V=4/3*pi*r^3
> One cubic meter of gold weighs 21.18 tons.
> Low end r=1.5 meters V=14.1345m^3  299.36871 tons



There you go.


----------



## Tash (Jul 3, 2008)

*cough*LOWEND*cough*
The calculation I go by scaled the distance to Luffy making it more exact.
Hinata x Tenten FC


----------



## Tash (Jul 3, 2008)

Actually just read that whole thread, it explains more in detail, and watching Rild go apeshit is always good for laughs.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 3, 2008)

I always go by the Low End.


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 3, 2008)

tanukibeast said:


> You can doubt it, but my calcs say otherwise.
> V=4/3*pi*r^3
> *One cubic meter of gold weighs 21.18 tons.*
> Low end r=1.5 meters V=14.1345m^3  299.36871 tons
> ...




ok, if thats so than....




^^^that?s about the size of 1 cubic meter ( stated to be.) and as you stated, one cubic meter of gold is about 21.18 tons. now, if we compare the size of that above and the size of the gold luffy is holding. They are almost close, with luffy?s being maybe a bit bigger, now since that?s the case. Wouldn?t the actual weigh of the gold be little more than  21.18 tons? Like maybe 40 or 50 at max? 




> Yes, he can take hits from characters weaker than base Luffy, without dying, impressive.



Sandman can pretty much be as physically strong as he wants to be, ( given the right amount of sand.) his base strength is 85, spiderman tanks hits from him when he accumulates a wide multitude of sand. There is no letting how strong sandman is when he accumulates all that sand, but it is most likely in the 100rds class strength. Also, if I am not mistaken, hasn?t peter faced an enraged hulk before? ( I will have to look for the scans..) I think that he even beat one at some point?not sure?but I am pretty positive that he faced hulk in at least one point in his career. 




> Shitty cop-out, Luffy blitzed him in a straight dash in front of his face.



A fluke, he did it once, that?s all. if he could do that the entire fight than  have most likely. Lucci reacted to everything else he did later on.




> Now if only you could make it so that didn't happen, and that reaction, and movement speed were the same thing, but it did, they're not, your attempt at rebuttal fails, and my point stands.



No, it was a fluke, lucci being able to react to just about everything luffy did after that should be a clear showing of this. So now, its either lucci got magically more acute with his reaction, or luffy just got lucky the first time. I am inclined to go with the latter.





> You can disagree all you want, it doesn't really matter when Luffy has reached building heights on more than two occasions with his rubber moves.




And spidey is going to stand there looking because? ?..spidey will more than likely keep swinging by as luffy gets closer till he finds an opening to let the building down on him.




> Fallacy Fallacy, it would only be a no limits fallacy if I said Luffy can stretch indefinitely. And Spidersense doesn't help when he can't react to what's coming to him. And he's tossed his arms across a good portion of Drum Island fighting Wapol, and far out to sea while escaping Smoker.



And so that qualifies as MILES long? Oh and the wapol one only looked long because of the position the panel was showing. In reality, it was probably not even one mile in length. Also, why wouldn?t spider sense help to react to one of those attacks?




> Your blind, Luffy breaks building in BASE form in a position that leaves him a fraction of his strength, he'll break the building like it wasn't there.



Only to miss, which is spideys plan, have him distracted so the webbings don?t miss. 




> Are you trolling? He ran vertically UP the beanstalk with it attached to his arm and then swung it with enough force to smash Enel and break it.



Which doesn?t make sense considering the fact that he could almost barley lift it in one instance and than the next he can magically swing it around like nothing? Sorry, but it was clearly plot plot no mi at work. Not his own strength.


----------



## Amuro (Jul 3, 2008)

I lol'd where exactly in those scans does it show Spidey "tanking" Hulk's attacks? I can't even believe you'd post a cover as a feat.  

Question how well would Spidey's Spider sense work for him during a Buster Call? Wouldn't it be going off quite alot if not constantly making it harder for him to focus on Luffys attacks?


----------



## lambda (Jul 3, 2008)

The fact that you pulled out the Spidey versus Supes comics to try to make your point just proves how much you have no idea what you're talking about. As for Hulk, WWH explained that Banner is always holding back, no matter how angry he is. That's no proof.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 3, 2008)

Tash said:


> Which is in this case inaccurate.



Not really the ball changes size regardless of perspective several time.


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 3, 2008)

lambda said:


> The fact that you pulled out the Spidey versus Supes comics to try to make your point just proves how much you have no idea what you're talking about.



That was meant as a joke man, that’s kinda why I put the whole “lol” before saying it.




> As for Hulk, WWH explained that Banner is always holding back, no matter how angry he is. That's no proof.



Lol, and I am the one that doesn’t know what I am talking about? Hulk was sent into space BECAUSE he killed people, and caused a substantial amount of damage. this was also pre him getting sent to space, so him holding back back than isn't likely. Please try reading hulk comics before opening your mouth ok.




Hagi said:


> I lol'd where exactly in those scans does it show Spidey "tanking" Hulk's attacks?



Did I say this? Mind quoting me? I don’t remember saying this.



> I can't even believe you'd post a cover as a feat.



that was to show that spiderman has fought hulk, I am not using it as a feat. that was simply used to back up that claim. ( I have found quite a few issue/scans of fights with hulk while I was looking  browsing threw thouhg, I would upload them but it takes a pretty long time and there are so many……I will try to hurry it up though.)



> Question how well would Spidey's Spider sense work for him during a Buster Call? Wouldn't it be going off quite alot if not constantly making it harder for him to focus on Luffys attacks?



Are you seriously asking this? I am pretty sure both these two are fighting alone, with no interference from the outside world. Op mentioned enies lobby as a arena, nothing more from what I can tell.




> Tash said:
> 
> 
> > Are you shitting me? Half of these are obvious PIS. Spidey vs Superman, really now.
> ...


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 3, 2008)

just a quick question to the op before this debate goes any further, is this any version of the two characters from whatever they have ever gotton in terms of power? or is just this a specific version. please elaborate on this, because your answer could be the deciding factor to this fight.


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> My dad told me about these.Spiderman lost all his fights against hulk and we don't know who won in superman vs Spiderman.By the looks of it superman didn't put any force in that punch.
> 
> Spiderman is fighting luffy during a buster call this is hard for him.Spiderman is losing all his buildings and his spide sense is messed up because there are cannonbals going of every where plus you got 5 vice admirals and alot of Fonder marines everywhere.Making spiderman haveing less focus on luffy.And may I remind you a buster call can destroy an Island.Spidey will be lucky to survive one.Luffy will have prblm fighting during a buster call because he was fighting lucci during one.If spidey can't focus on luffy then he is mind as well dead.When you fight luffy you need to spen all your focus on him or he speed blitzes you.How is spidey going to doge all luffys attacks if his spidey sence is out of wack and has to deal with the other marines.Spidey loses because he hasn't shown any power or speed to handle this.





can you answer the question I provided above this post please? oh and just so you know, spiderman has beaten hulk......which is kinda the reason why I am asking which version where allowed to use.....


----------



## Amuro (Jul 3, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> Did I say this? Mind quoting me? I don?t remember saying this.





TonyG416 said:


> but here is him fighting hulk *and even tanking some of his attacks.*



I lol'd. 



TonyG416 said:


> Are you seriously asking this? I am pretty sure both these two are fighting alone, with no interference from the outside world. Op mentioned enies lobby as a arena, nothing more from what I can tell.



Yes i am seriously asking that _because i unlike you_ can actually read. 



Jinibea said:


> All Blood lust.
> 
> Location is Eniss lobby.
> 
> ...


----------



## Crimson King (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm surprised this didn't turn into anotehr Luffy vs Naruto thing.


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 3, 2008)

just a quick question to the op before this debate goes any further, is this any version of the two characters from whatever they have ever gotton in terms of power? or is just this a specific version. please elaborate on this, because your answer could be the deciding factor to this fight.




> Hagi said:
> 
> 
> > I lol'd.
> ...


----------



## Jinibea (Jul 3, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> can you answer the question I provided above this post please? oh and just so you know, spiderman has beaten hulk......which is kinda the reason why I am asking which version where allowed to use.....



How many versions are there of spiderman and how strong is each one.I only no the current one.When I said make a match up I usually mean the current one.Hope this answers your question TonyG416.


----------



## HumanWine (Jul 3, 2008)

Spiderman lifting holding a skyscaper's support beam:


----------



## lambda (Jul 3, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> Lol, and I am the one that doesn’t know what I am talking about? Hulk was sent into space BECAUSE he killed people, and caused a substantial amount of damage. this was also pre him getting sent to  space, so him holding back back than isn't likely. Please try reading hulk comics before opening your mouth ok.


 Yep, you really don't know what you're talking about.
2
2
Hulk has alway held back, since day one.

But keep digging yourself in, it's not like you still have any credibility to lose anyway.


----------



## Xirk (Jul 3, 2008)

TonyG416 said:
			
		

> ok, if thats so than....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The gold ball was quite a bit bigger then a 1 cubic metre.

base Luffy was equal to Blueno


----------



## tanukibeast (Jul 3, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> ok, if thats so than....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why should anyone use that flawed sense of scaling when we have Luffy right next to the gold ball? IIRC Luffy is 198 cm tall. There are times when the gold ball's radius looked smaller than Luffy and other times when it looked bigger. Simple math then allows for a range of volumes and weights since the ball's size seems to change.


----------



## Tash (Jul 3, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> Not really the ball changes size regardless of perspective several time.


I guess it's a good thing for me LT used a scan with even perspective, and tat in all cases the ball is bigger or big as Luffy is tall.



TonyG416 said:


> Can luffy emulate something of equal power to that? If so than I see where are going with that….but if not than, as you can see. It didn’t kill him, so spidey is just durable enough to tank it. Luffy won’t be one shotty him here.


Considering that's a low end thunderclap that didn't even do much damage to the surrounding area and was still enough to put him down for the count, yes. He's done more with Crocodile, he's done more with Enel, he's done more with Lucci, and he's done a hell of a lot more with Moria.






> Whats wrong with that?


Avoiding the aim of NORMAL HUMANS is not impressive.




> Ok, that’s your opinion, and I don’t see how anyways….but whatever.


Somehow that doesn't surprise me.





> You mind telling me where I went wrong and such? I am being serious here, and trying to get this concept.


1. Composition: Different material weigh more or less by meter squared.
2. Free Space: A lot of your machine is likely to be open space between metal and wires.
3. In the smallest instance of the ball it's about as tall as Luffy, your cube is much smaller height wise than the guy standing in the background.






> Not really.


Oh My GOD. You completely destroyed my point with this two word cop-out completely void of any contradicting facts or proof.





> Sandman is a  CONFIRMED 85 ton combatant, it has been stated that by adding sand *his strength increases exponentially and at least goes up 100 tons.* What assumptions am I making exactly?



Post a scan saying this.




> But not nearly as agile and hard to hit, which is most of what spiderman does in his fights with hulk.


Spiderman is quicker and more agile than Sentry and Surfer now AMIFUCKINRITE? 







> Well……..., that was uncalled for.


So are your bad cop-outs.








> If I recall correctly, he reacted to everything else luffy did after that instance. It wasn’t just the punches alone.


That's the only time Luffy attempted to rush him before Gear 2, everything else was punches and kicks, with a minimal amount of stop and go combat speed.





> With his fluke one time speed feat? no.


With your all one time Spiderman flukes, also no. You're not the only one who can form a retarded cop-out.







> That still doesn’t make it miles long, your just making a wild assumption here. There are instances I can barley see others from a far away but at the same time know that they are most certainly not miles away. ( being up in a building for instance.)


Argument from anecdotal evidence fallacy.






> Whats to say that he can’t react to it? Where are getting this assumption from?


I already said why. Because in his one legit bullet-timing feat he can hardly react to a shitty handgun.






> Luffy once barley moved apart the two buildings he was stuck on, and looked like he was really straining himself, so saying he can move them with ease is kind of incorrect. It will take a good couple seconds maybe.


And Are you purposely being dense? In more than one post I've explained that Luffy was in a position that would only allow him a fraction of his overall strength to use, to push those buildings apart. And that's GEARLESS Luffy more than two arcs ago.





> But in like a couple minutes? magically all of a sudden? with no apparent reason why? I think not.


You need to go acquaint yourself with fiction. The same thing has happened in
Bleach
Naruto
JJBA
Bastard
TTGL
Soul Eater
Smallville
Spiderman 
Gash Bell
Pokemon
And the list goes on. Think again.





> That was a joke, I thought people here would get it. but obviously they are far to serious about this debate to even notice, they are looking for the slightest mistakes or misinterpretation to call you on about. My fault, I wasn’t aware of this earlier.


You don't make slight mistakes, you make huge, screaming in your face, blatantly false ones.


----------



## Jinibea (Jul 3, 2008)

HumanWine said:


> Spiderman lifting holding a skyscaper's support beam:



Thats not impressive.Spiderman is using all his power and that doesn't look as heavy as the Golden ball.The golden ball was around 300 to 400 tons.And luffy was lifting that up with eas.


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## mystictrunks (Jul 4, 2008)

Tash said:


> I guess it's a good thing for me LT used a scan with even perspective, and tat in all cases the ball is bigger or big as Luffy is tall.



It changes sizes in "even perspective" as well.


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## Jinibea (Jul 4, 2008)

tanukibeast said:


> Why should anyone use that flawed sense of scaling when we have Luffy right next to the gold ball? IIRC Luffy is 198 cm tall. There are times when the gold ball's radius looked smaller than Luffy and other times when it looked bigger. Simple math then allows for a range of volumes and weights since the ball's size seems to change.



Well thats art you can't have purfect arc all the time but we would have to estimate.And I guess people estimated it to be 300 to 400 tons.


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## Tash (Jul 4, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> It changes sizes in "even perspective" as well.



And the second part of that post?


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## C. Hook (Jul 4, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> Well thats art you can't have purfect arc all the time but we would have to estimate.And I guess people estimated it to be 300 to 400 tons.



High-end estimates were over 700 tons.


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## mystictrunks (Jul 4, 2008)

Tash said:


> And the second part of that post?



It gets smaller then him too.


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## Tash (Jul 4, 2008)

Now can I see the scans of these moments?


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## mystictrunks (Jul 4, 2008)

Nope. I'm too lazy to read through the torture that was Skypiea again.


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## C. Hook (Jul 4, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> Nope. I'm too lazy to read through the torture that was Skypiea again.



Okay, so you're making a claim that is dubious, and you say you're not willing to bring up scans?


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## Tash (Jul 4, 2008)

If you could recall instances of it being smaller than Luffy why would you have to re-read all of skypiea? Why not just go straight to the chapter you remember it being smaller in?


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## RWB (Jul 4, 2008)

HumanWine said:


> Spiderman lifting holding a skyscaper's support beam:



Could someone calculate the strength needed to do this? I don't have the math skills.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jul 4, 2008)

I don't really read comics but didn't it mention in the respect threads that Spiderman is a Class 25.

Luffy was bullet timing since east blue and has displayed far greater strength than class 25. I really can't see how spiderman takes this.


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## mystictrunks (Jul 4, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> Okay, so you're making a claim that is dubious, and you say you're not willing to bring up scans?



Dubious:  fraught with uncertainty or doubt

There's no doubt in my heart.


@Tash
You couldn't pay me to read any part of Skypiea again. Look around the last 20ish chapters of it if you want.


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## Tash (Jul 4, 2008)

Google fallacy. But for the sake of the argument I checked anyway, there is literally NO scan in which the ball is smaller than Luffy is.


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## C. Hook (Jul 4, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> Dubious:  fraught with uncertainty or doubt
> 
> There's no doubt in my heart.
> 
> ...



Fraught with doubt could also mean someone else doubting it, which several people do. 

And I looked at Skypiea. Not only does the gold ball start out a bit taller than Luffy, but it seems to actually grow BIGGER as the chapters go on.

Pain himself admits First gold ball appearance. 
here Notice the difference?


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## Banhammer (Jul 4, 2008)

300 tons for the golden ball is stupid.
If people believed Usop's hammer with that size to weight 10 tons, there is no way a ball of gold about the same size would weight 300

Furthermore, Luffy was punked by gentle punches from his grandpa
He blatnly surrendered because he knew he was outmatched.
And what are his strength feats? Canon ball pitches (that he claimed to be giving it a serious blow as he told to himself that he could notice how much strength he had lost)
I completly dismiss the last ball, as to carry such a ball would have had sunk the ship, and has about as much weight as a canon fact as the Black Panther arm baring the Silver Surfer or Spiderman defeating a Herald

Finally, do you have any idea how much even one beam of the daily bugle weights (One being the least he was aware of)

A hell of a lot more than a ball gold.


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## C. Hook (Jul 4, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> 300 tons for the golden ball is stupid.
> If people believed Usop's hammer with that size to weight 10 tons, there is no way a ball of gold about the same size would weight 300



What? The hammer itself had a big 10 ton sign on it. Of course they would assume it weighs ten tons. Also, the gold ball was no where near as small as the hammer. 



Banhammer said:


> Furthermore, Luffy was punked by gentle punches from his grandpa
> He blatnly surrendered because he knew he was outmatched.



Luffy's shrugged off island cracking punches from Moria. That moment with his grandpa was obviously used as comic relief ("Nobody can avoid the fist of love!"), and even if you take it seriously, there's always the chance that Garp used some sort of technique to harm Luffy. 

What are you going to do next, bring in the part where Nami's punch hurt Luffy and Zoro?



Banhammer said:


> And what are his strength feats? Canon ball pitches (that he claimed to be giving it a serious blow as he told to himself that he could notice how much strength he had lost)
> I completly dismiss the last ball, as to carry such a ball would have had sunk the ship, and has about as much weight as a canon fact as the Black Panther arm baring the Silver Surfer or Spiderman defeating a Herald



Your last sentence made a grand total of zero sense. 

As for the part about the last ball not being possible due to physics... One Piece doesn't care about physics. Look at the part where Nightmare Luffy stops Oz's punch with his hand. Luffy doesn't move, despite being light enough for the punch to knock him back.



Banhammer said:


> Finally, do you have any idea how much even one beam of the daily bugle weights (One being the least he was aware of)
> 
> A hell of a lot more than a ball gold.



Gold is incredibly dense, and has far more mass than steel per inch. 

Now, Luffy CANNOT lift 700 tons (The highest estimate of mass), but he did manage to drag that gold ball around and pull it using his arm. Therefore, he's still ridiculously strong.


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## Tash (Jul 4, 2008)

FYI Luffy did lift that 700 ton gold ball, over his head.


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## Banhammer (Jul 4, 2008)

Well then mate, when Peter finds himself in a world where your stats and laws of physics are measured by the plot, he'll outrun and outmuscle luffy, hurling him to the ocean with one punch, since plot and angry angst is something that always on his side


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## C. Hook (Jul 4, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Well then mate, when Peter finds himself in a world where your stats and laws of physics are measured by the plot, he'll outrun and outmuscle luffy, hurling him to the ocean with one punch, since plot and angry angst is something that always on his side



What? So the fact that I presented evidence that showed that Luffy could tank island cracking punches was not enough in your mind? 

And what about the rest of my post? Are you going to ignore that too?

Seriously, act smart and counter my points. Don't be an asshole, I can tell it's not your style.



Tash said:


> FYI Luffy did lift that 700 ton gold ball, over his head.



Scans, please. I looked all through Skypiea, and I didn't see any part where he lifted it above his head using his physical strength.


----------



## Tash (Jul 4, 2008)

here
How did you miss this if you read through all of it?


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## C. Hook (Jul 4, 2008)

Tash said:


> here
> How did you miss this if you read through all of it?



Umm... Never mind. I guess I didn't look hard enough.


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## Banhammer (Jul 4, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> What? The hammer itself had a big 10 ton sign on it. Of course they would assume it weighs ten tons. Also, the gold ball was no where near as small as the hammer.


The gold ball was nowhere near 60 times bigger than that hammer Usop fought Mr4 with.
Labeled as it might be, any dufous would imediatly not believe that something 1/60th of it's suposed size would not weight whatever it is lableled to weight. 



> Luffy's shrugged off island cracking punches from Moria. That moment with his grandpa was obviously used as comic relief ("Nobody can avoid the fist of love!"), and even if you take it seriously, there's always the chance that Garp used some sort of technique to harm Luffy. What are you going to do next, bring in the part where Nami's punch hurt Luffy and Zoro?


If I remember correctly, luffy was amped on the strength of 100 shadows, in a body that is specially made to tank physical blows
Spidey dosen't need to be stronger than luffy, he needs to be able to lift his trapped body.
As for his own strength, well, I'm still not convinced he can break through the webbing (specially since recent webbing dosen't break, it stretches, and it has a tensile resistance bigger than steel. You know, much like the steel nets that sanji cannot even hope to break through, even though his strenth is comparable to luffy's)
Yes, Nami's feats are plot induced, but then again, so are all of luffy's.
Some for comedic purposes, some for stylistic liberties.
His ability to run and drag a gold ball up a beanstalk that has "higly dense clouds" for it's base, or pushing building aside is just as much of a plot motivated impossibility as it is Nami convincing Luffy to act against his personality by punching it into him, or brooke being able to bleed from his nose.
It's there so we understand that he's mad. If we do want to atempt to accept them as valid feats (wich I think we shouldn't) then we have to open up possibilities and put it into context.
Even though the gold is that big, "somehow" it cannot weight three hundred tons. Dosen't matter how.
The same way when you have a math problem, in wich two paralel lines look roughly around the same size, but then you find out through calculations that one is over three times the size of the other.
Wich kinda kills the point anyway, so you're better of scratching that feat. Or else, I'm gonna came up with feats by using "death in the family" and "the pulse" to proove spider man is hipersonic, and that the one where he flips a fully loaded storage train cart with one finger, to proove that he's a Hulk Level threat, or even the Firelord feat to proove he's a planet buster.


> Your last sentence made a grand total of zero sense.


It's about the same thing. By the way, have you ever read the thread of the Gold Ball feats? It's just alot of Pipboy wanking to characters he tries to hammer into people that they are supersonic.
The guy who gave us the Gold Ball estimate is also the guy who yells that Nami could rape the entire Narutoverse and 90% of the marvelverse because she faces hipersonic enemies all the time.


> As for the part about the last ball not being possible due to physics... One Piece doesn't care about physics. Look at the part where Nightmare Luffy stops Oz's punch with his hand. Luffy doesn't move, despite being light enough for the punch to knock him back.


Exactly my point. One Piece verse dosen't give a shit about physics. And because it follows no physics rules, you cannot proove he's a class 100. You cannot use any of his feats because they are piss ridden with Plot Plot no Mi, and that is not accepted in the OBD.
Or else we have to believe that Pell can tank Nukes, but he can't survive getting slapped around by Nico Robin, and therefore Nico>>Nuclear bombs.


> Gold is incredibly dense, and has far more mass than steel per inch.
> Now, Luffy CANNOT lift 700 tons (The highest estimate of mass), but he did manage to drag that gold ball around and pull it using his arm. Therefore, he's still ridiculously strong.



It's also suposed to liquify at a fifth of the temperature of the surface of the sun.
Are you implying that luffy can tank direct contact with that? Something the rest of the planet cant?
Let's also remember that while he could break the ball free, he could not neither break through Franky, nor could he inflict 300 tons damage worth of damage to anything else after that.
Heck, even before tha, he went all out on a golden laced wall, and didn't even dent it.
Scrath the gold ball of your feats. It was a convenient plot twist, written without the least concern over continuity.
For example, you know why Oda say's Sanji's leg extremly high temperatures do not charr his leg?
"Because his heart burns hotter with paxion"
It's the world where everything short of AIDS is healed with bandaids.
If we go down that road, then peter parker is a supersonic planet buster.
More than plenty to catch a Luffy(that has a speed that is not the best Spidey has ever seen) with his web(that he could not break out of anyway), and hurl him onto the ocean.
Nowhere in that sentence requires Peter to punch him.


----------



## tanukibeast (Jul 4, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> 300 tons for the golden ball is stupid.
> If people believed Usop's hammer with that size to weight 10 tons, there is no way a ball of gold about the same size would weight 300



We've already been over this.



tanukibeast said:


> You can doubt it, but my calcs say otherwise.
> V=4/3*pi*r^3
> One cubic meter of gold weighs 21.18 tons.
> Low end r=1.5 meters V=14.1345m^3  299.36871 tons
> ...


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## mystictrunks (Jul 4, 2008)

No one has ever cracked in island in One Piece stop saying that shit. A large ship got a crack, not a fucking land mass.


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## Cerō2 (Jul 4, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> No one has ever cracked in island in One Piece stop saying that shit. A large ship got a crack, not a fucking land mass.



Island was inside the ship:

Why Shiho is the one for Shikamaru

Moria cracks the island not the ship:

Pain himself admits


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## Tash (Jul 4, 2008)

Pell dropped the bomb and sped away before it exploded. And you could probably find degrees greater than a fifth of the sun in your house. And saying "LAWL IT DOESNT FOLLOW PHYSIX" could easily work both ways. And Oda notoriously gives joke answers in SBS.


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## Rashou (Jul 4, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> The gold ball was nowhere near 60 times bigger than that hammer Usop fought Mr4 with.
> Labeled as it might be, any dufous would imediatly not believe that something 1/60th of it's suposed size would not weight whatever it is lableled to weight.
> 
> 
> ...


The problem with calling Luffy's gold ball feat "convenient for the plot" is that feat isn't the only one that puts him at such a high level of strength. People have already mentioned KOing Crocodile by punching him through several meters of bedrock and then several meters into the air, sending a hefty guy (Wapol) to another island, swinging giant sea kings around and tossing them ten meters away effortlessly, and pushing buildings apart. The gold ball isn't the only feat Luffy needs to show he's got strength. You can't call SMvFL or PiS on it because it wasn't a one time occasion. 

Besides the strength issue... How is Spidey supposed to get Luffy webbed up?! Luffy can repeatedly dodge guys that move far faster than his web, and his equal or inferior in combat, Zoro, could bullet time a hundred chapters ago with little effort. Even if Spidey gets a web on him, he won't instantly tie Luffy up- Luffy has more than enough time to yank Spidey over to him and either Spiderman forgoes his web or gets a Gomu Gomu no whatever Luffy decides to use to the face.


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## C. Hook (Jul 4, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> No one has ever cracked in island in One Piece stop saying that shit. A large ship got a crack, not a fucking land mass.



No, you stop saying _that_ shit. It was an island converted into a ship (Or a floating island, take your pick), and he created a crack clean down the middle. Yeah, it's a fucking landmass. Saying anything else is going against canon.

Tash: Don't use the Pell feat. Unlike the gold ball, that was pure Plot Plot No Mi. The gold ball was not put in to solve any sort of plot problem. In fact, it CAUSED a plot problem. Pell survived the nuke because Oda didn't want him to die, simple as that.


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## RWB (Jul 5, 2008)

As said before, can anyone with the skills figure out how strong spidey needs to be to replace the support beam of that scraper?

I'm pretty sure it's pretty damn much strength he needs to use.


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## mystictrunks (Jul 5, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> No, you stop saying _that_ shit. It was an island converted into *a ship* (Or a floating island, take your pick), and he created a crack clean down the middle. Yeah, it's a fucking landmass. Saying anything else is going against canon.



A Ship                              .


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## Power16 (Jul 5, 2008)

Emperor Ashtar pretty much covered the island and ship thing.


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## TonyG416 (Jul 5, 2008)

lambda said:


> Yep, you really don't know what you're talking about.
> 1
> 1
> Hulk has alway held back, since day one.
> ...



you haven't proven your point, my still stands. hulk back than wasn't holding back. ( though mindless.) he was still not holding back when he *killed *those people. what I have stated still stands, prove that he was holding back back than. addtionially, I really don't care what *your side* thinks about me, they can think what ever they please. I don't come here to gain credibility from anyone.


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## Jinibea (Jul 5, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> you haven't proven your point, my still stands. hulk back than wasn't holding back. ( though mindless.) he was still not holding back when he *killed *those people. what I have stated still stands, prove that he was holding back back than. addtionially, I really don't care what *your side* thinks about me, they can think what ever they please. I don't come here to gain credibility from anyone.



Like I said spiderman has no speed and has no power that can compare with luffy.Yes his Duribillity is strong but that will not help him much.So luffy wins get over it.


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## C. Hook (Jul 5, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> A Ship                              .



What? It's an island. It's essentially a floating island with a rudder, a mast, and some woodwork around the sides. I don't see how you could not call it an island. Not only that, but Moria cracked the land part of the island, so you can't just claim he cracked the wooden part.

Just in case you conveniently forgot to look at Ashtar's scan...
wires


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## TonyG416 (Jul 5, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> Like I said spiderman has no speed and has no power that can compare with luffy.Yes his Duribillity is strong but that will not help him much.So luffy wins get over it.



actually, you should start reading up on spiderman before opening your mouth. spidey isn't the type of guy that goes about fighting people head on regardless of who he is facing. luffy won't even get close, and spidey isn't going to try to beat luffy physically in order to win just so you know. he has his stingers for instance.

P.s. I think that you are extremely bias in this, I mean. from what you are saying, it doesn’t seem like spiderman has a chance period. than you go and edit your opening post so that spidey can’t throw luffy in the water. Thus giving spiderman ( in your mind.) no way of victory. So than, I ask this to you, why make this thread if your going to be that bias? also I would like to note that cosmic spidey would man handle luffy or anyone else in opverse……this is something I could have used if I didn’t ask you to specify. ( somthing I did without knowing exactly how bias you where….)

(Here is cosmic spiderman incase some of you don’t know of him.)

















Tash said:


> Considering that's a low end thunderclap that didn't even do much damage to the surrounding area and was still enough to put him down for the count, yes.



The fact that spidey took it head on, to the face and only got momentarily off the battle. is just another testament to his durability, something luffy can’t emulate without using his most powerful of attacks.( that most likely won’t hit any way’s…..)



> He's done more with Crocodile, he's done more with Enel


,

Both one time magical plot plot no mi moments, your point?



> he's done more with Lucci,



that wasn’t all that impressive, and I would put hulks little thunderclap above anything luffy did in that fight…..I mean, this is a  guy that can do this causally…




even a little thunderclap ( that is right in your face.) should be more devastating than anything luffy did in his fight with lucci.



> and he's done a hell of a lot more with Moria.



What did moria take that was above a hulk thunderclap? ( even at low level.)




> Avoiding the aim of NORMAL HUMANS is not impressive.



How do you know that he is avoiding the aim and not the ammunition? 



> *1. Composition: Different material weigh more or less by meter squared.
> 2. Free Space: A lot of your machine is likely to be open space between metal and wires.*
> 3. In the smallest instance of the ball it's about as tall as Luffy, your cube is much smaller height wise than the guy standing in the background.



Are you still referring to the big car machine? I was done with that, I switched to the cube instead. ( I thought that you would have gotten that…..or perhaps you already did but still persist on it because that’s your best target…)

And as for 3, even if I give you that, it would still be not where near 800 or 700 tons, most it will go is MAYBE above 100.




> Oh My GOD. You completely destroyed my point with this two word cop-out completely void of any contradicting facts or proof.



Well, its true, he usually even makes jokes following one of those hits. He never seems injured or fatigued as you are trying to say. ( but if you really want evidence, than very well.)



after taking an attack by hulk^^( and I would also like to note that he continued fighting after wards with no visible signs of what your saying.)




> Post a scan saying this.



I don’t know where the scan is ( nor do I feel like looking for the issue and than uploading the image. So…..)

Here is a statement from marvel comics definitive website ( one of the most credible marvel sites.)



> The Sandman is vulnerable to temperatures over 3,400 degrees Fahrenheit. Such temperatures can cause his highly impure silicate composition to fuse into amorphous silicate (glass). The Sandman maintains mental control of the particles of which his body is composed so that he can reform his scattered grains unless a substantial portion of his body mass has been isolated. Apparently, he can also convert common grains of sand around him into constituents of his body to replenish portions he might lose track of during battle. In this manner, he* can increase his overall size and volume (to some as yet unknown limit), or that of his limbs.*



Now, I am pretty sure that I don’t need to explain why his already standard 85 tons strength level would increase exponentially as he accumulates more sand and gains more mass, I would think that you would know why.




> Spiderman is quicker and more agile than Sentry and Surfer now AMIFUCKINRITE?



What the hell, Spiderman almost never gets hit in his fights with hulk. ( he keeps a distants and thinks…..though again, I repeat, he *ALMOST *never gets hit...)











Sentry and surfer know they can tank most of his hits so don’t dodge as much.

For example….



also, yes, from what I have seen from sentry. He is less agile than spidey, his agility is almost never witnessed.




> That's the only time Luffy attempted to rush him before Gear 2, everything else was punches and kicks, with a minimal amount of stop and go combat speed.



Your chakra also changes by how many people you have killed, how much battle experience you have,
Your chakra also changes by how many people you have killed, how much battle experience you have,

he reacted than…..and don’t try to say luffy got quicker WITHOUT GEARS from here and enies lobby either…..only thing base luffy increased between those two instances was  reaction ( blueno.) that’s it. Again, it was a fluke.




> With your all one time Spiderman flukes, also no. You're not the only one who can form a retarded cop-out.



It isn’t one, and mind giving me a spiderman fluke? 




> I already said why. Because in his one legit bullet-timing feat he can hardly react to a shitty handgun.



I don’t know which instance your talking about when he barley couldn’t react to a handgun…. ( scans please….)but spidey has had others where he seemingly has no problem doing such. ( I will search for one of those instances...)




> And Are you purposely being dense? In more than one post I've explained that Luffy was in a position that would only allow him a fraction of his overall strength to use, to push those buildings apart. And that's GEARLESS Luffy more than two arcs ago.



Which was all for the sake of plot, it wasn’t his actual strength. He gets those magically convenient powers frequently. 



> You need to go acquaint yourself with fiction. The same thing has happened in
> Bleach
> JJBA
> Bastard
> ...




No actually, there is usually a good reason why a character is getting stronger usually in the last seconds where it truly matters. (reasons being a  hidden potential, hidden power etc etc etc…..they even elaborate on it.) however, in Luffy's case. It just happened because of no apparent reason. 


Oh and I would also just like to add that spidey has beaten bullet timers before….

New YGO! Abridged!


----------



## Cerō2 (Jul 5, 2008)

People are now fishing for *Cosmic Spider-Man* feats now? :\


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Jul 5, 2008)

Emperor Ashtar said:


> People are now fishing for *Cosmic Spider-Man* feats now? :\



Try reading a post before you comment on it.

Tony is right.  There is no reason in making a fight if you already know the winner.  The is no point in making a fight especially when anyone comes up with a way for your character to lose you change the circumstances so that way won't work.  It's completely moronic and makes you look like a child.

If you want to know who would win in a serious fight, then make a thread about it.  If you just want to see your favorite character beat someone else and give a big fuck you to anyone who disagrees with you by making it near impossible for the other side to win, don't bother.  It's a waste of everyone's time and bandwidth.


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## TonyG416 (Jul 5, 2008)

Snake Plissken said:


> Try reading a post before you comment on it.
> 
> Tony is right.  There is no reason in making a fight if you already know the winner.  The is no point in making a fight especially when anyone comes up with a way for your character to lose you change the circumstances so that way won't work.  It's completely moronic and makes you look like a child.
> 
> If you want to know who would win in a serious fight, then make a thread about it.  If you just want to see your favorite character beat someone else and give a big fuck you to anyone who disagrees with you by making it near impossible for the other side to win, don't bother.  It's a waste of everyone's time and bandwidth.



Precisely ( reps.), I may just leave this thread to...


----------



## Amuro (Jul 5, 2008)

Snake Plissken said:


> Try reading a post before you comment on it.
> 
> Tony is right.  There is no reason in making a fight if you already know the winner.  The is no point in making a fight especially when anyone comes up with a way for your character to lose you change the circumstances so that way won't work.  It's completely moronic and makes you look like a child.
> 
> If you want to know who would win in a serious fight, then make a thread about it.  If you just want to see your favorite character beat someone else and give a big fuck you to anyone who disagrees with you by making it near impossible for the other side to win, don't bother.  It's a waste of everyone's time and bandwidth.



Surely if Spidey can somehow manage to throw Luffy in the water he's smart enough to beat him another way?


----------



## Tash (Jul 5, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> The fact that spidey took it head on, to the face and only got momentarily off the battle. is just another testament to his durability, something luffy can?t emulate without using his most powerful of attacks.( that most likely won?t hit any way?s?..)


More bullshit from you. That particular thunderclap didn't even cause collateral damageto judge it's strengh by and it STILL put Spiderman out.

,



> Both one time magical plot plot no mi moments, your point?


Do you realize how shitty a cop-out that is? I could easily say thing about every feat you're misrepresenting. 



> that wasn?t all that impressive, and I would put hulks little thunderclap above anything luffy did in that fight?..I mean, this is a  guy that can do this causally?


Sure maybe  a strong thunderclap, not that crap you posted that didn't even cause collateral damage.

Now if only the thunderclap that hit spidey did that level of collateral damage, maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't be grasping at straws.




> even a little thunderclap ( that is right in your face.) should be more devastating than anything luffy did in his fight with lucci.


And yet... wait for it... wait for it... IT ISN'T!





> What did moria take that was above a hulk thunderclap? ( even at low level.)


Two Jet Rockets.
A Thunderstorm.
A jet shell that knocked him back into a huge tower collapsing it on himself.
All of these did more damage than that Thunderclap which didn't do more than flash and knock spiderman to the ground.






> How do you know that he is avoiding the aim and not the ammunition?


Seriously Go actually READ a Spiderman comic, and stop taking your information from some one-sided respect thread. The VERY PURPOSE of his spidersense is to give preemptive warning so he can be out of danger BEFORE the danger strikes. Not to mention without actually SEEING the bullet in the air all of his feats could go down the shitter, sense, or not. And the burden of proof falls on you to prove he's not dodgng the aim.





> Are you still referring to the big car machine? I was done with that, I switched to the cube instead. ( I thought that you would have gotten that?..or perhaps you already did but still persist on it because that?s your best target?)


I'm referring to both, and your whole argument is a HUGE target that's already been shot in the neck, you just don't realize it's already on the ground, bleeding out the jugular.



> And as for 3, even if I give you that, it would still be not where near 800 or 700 tons, most it will go is MAYBE above 100.


Argument ad nauseum fallacy. 
Me and others have already proven it to be far in excess of 100 tons, you'e just being dense as lead.






> Well, its true, he usually even makes jokes following one of those hits. He never seems injured or fatigued as you are trying to say. ( but if you really want evidence, than very well.)
> 
> 
> 
> after taking an attack by hulk^^( and I would also like to note that he continued fighting after wards with no visible signs of what your saying.)


He has stars spinning around his head, and is trying to regain composure after getting hit. DUH.






> I don?t know where the scan is ( nor do I feel like looking for the issue and than uploading the image. So?..)
> 
> Here is a statement from marvel comics definitive website ( one of the most credible marvel sites.)


Nowhere in that quote does it mention strength, all it says is that his volume increases, which doesn't have to equate to greater lifting power, basically you just used a non-sequiter fallacy.










> What the hell, Spiderman almost never gets hit in his fights with hulk. ( he keeps a distants and thinks?..though again, I repeat, he *ALMOST *never gets hit...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As tempting as that is, Red herring fallacy.






> Thriller Bark
> Thriller Bark
> 
> he reacted than?..and don?t try to say luffy got quicker WITHOUT GEARS from here and enies lobby either?..only thing base luffy increased between those two instances was  reaction ( blueno.) that?s it. Again, it was a fluke.


USE YOUR COMMON SENSE. NO SHIT HE GOT FASTER. THERE'S A REASON WHY HE CAN'T HOPE TO HIT BLUENO IN WATER SEVEN BUT KICKS HIS ASS IN ENIES LOBBY, AND CAN THEN FIGHT EVENLY WIH LUCCI. WHY IS THE CONCEPT OF FICTIONAL POWERUPS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?





> It isn?t one, and mind giving me a spiderman fluke?


By your logic.
Spiderman dodging that one bullet.
Spiderman bracing the tower.
Spiderman taking a thunderclap.
And yea, when it can apply to anything you don't like, because it shits on your argument, you've crossed theline from intelligent debate to shitty cop-outs spawned from your even more shitty argument.






> I don?t know which instance your talking about when he barley couldn?t react to a handgun?. ( scans please?.)but spidey has had others where he seemingly has no problem doing such. ( I will search for one of those instances...)


[BakaWolf-m.3.3.w] Kimi ga Nozomu Eien OVA ~Next Season~ 03 [237D24AB].avi
He can barely react to a handgun, the make and model along with common knowledge tell us it's firing subsonic projectles that he can barely react to.






> Which was all for the sake of plot, it wasn?t his actual strength. He gets those magically convenient powers frequently.


More argument ad nauseum fallacy.





> No actually, there is usually a good reason why a character is getting stronger usually in the last seconds where it truly matters. (reasons being a  hidden potential, hidden power etc etc etc?..they even elaborate on it.) however, in Luffy's case. It just happened because of no apparent reason.


Which is not the case in any of those comics, and manga I've mentioned.




> Oh and I would also just like to add that spidey has beaten bullet timers before?.
> 
> New YGO! Abridged!



Now if only there was something there that required he dodge the bullet and not the aim. No bullets seen in air while he moves, no dice.


----------



## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Jul 5, 2008)

Hagi said:


> Surely if Spidey can somehow manage to throw Luffy in the water he's smart enough to beat him another way?



Had the thread originally said Spidey couldn't throw him in the water your point might have merit.

Unfortunately, the TC changed the OP only after someone brought that up as a viable way for Spider-Man to win.  That shows that this is a spite thread, where Jinibea doesn't care who could actually win, Jinibea just wants to see Luffy beat Spider-Man.  That is a waste of everyone's time and is not what the OBD is meant for.  It's for making serious debates about who could defeat who, not for making childish threads where whenever there is a chance the person you want to win might lose you change the circumstances for that characters benefit.  This thread should be closed since it's obvious the TC knows who will win and thus there is no reason for the debate to go on.


----------



## lambda (Jul 5, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> you haven't proven your point, my still stands. hulk back than wasn't holding back. ( though mindless.) he was still not holding back when he *killed *those people. what I have stated still stands, prove that he was holding back back than. addtionially, I really don't care what *your side* thinks about me, they can think what ever they please. I don't come here to gain credibility from anyone.


 I 've alread proved my point, The Hulk hold back when no one has messed with his mind, it's now you're turn to prove that Hulk fought Spidey in these situations.Scans would be a good place to start. 

As for "my side", I didn't know I had one. But I do know that a large majority of people on this boards dislike bad logic,  arguments with no basis and the unwillingness to improve your posts.


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 5, 2008)

lambda said:


> I 've alread proved my point, The Hulk hold back when no one has messed with his mind, it's now you're turn to prove that Hulk fought Spidey in these situations.Scans would be a good place to start.



most of his fights with hulk has him dodging punches and blows that would normally leave him reduced  to a bloody mess. that suffices formine. but If you want scans, than I will give you some tomorrow, right now ( after this post,) I am outta here. To beat to continue for today.




Tash said:


> More bullshit from you. That particular thunderclap didn't even cause collateral damageto judge it's strengh by and it STILL put Spiderman out.



What? Now that?s what where using to judge the amount of damage an attack can input? I could say the same for luffy and his many ? do no collateral damageto? attacks, how do you determine those? By strength level? If so, than hulk?s is still above luffy?s. in which case it matters not if he tanked with ease or not. since luffy can?t create the same level of power and sin?t as strong.




> Do you realize how shitty a cop-out that is? I could easily say thing about every feat you're misrepresenting.



Like what?




> Sure maybe  a strong thunderclap, not that crap you posted that didn't even cause collateral damage.


 
Already addressed this.




> Now if only the thunderclap that hit spidey did that level of collateral damage, maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't be grasping at straws.



Hulk did that casually, that is his given strength I am demonstrating. A thunderclap, even if at low level would still be above anything luffy has in his arsenal. Can luffy make tidal waves by merely moving his arms?




> And yet... wait for it... wait for it... IT ISN'T!



?Oh My GOD. You completely destroyed my point with this ten word ( edited.) cop-out completely void of any contradicting facts or proof.?






> Two Jet Rockets.
> A Thunderstorm.
> A jet shell that knocked him back into a huge tower collapsing it on himself.
> All of these did more damage than that Thunderclap which didn't do more than flash and knock spiderman to the ground.




 no, they really aren?t. hulks strength is magnitudes beyond luffy?s to the point that even his littlest thunderclaps are beyond anything luffy has ever done. Spiderman barely took one of these, thus putting him in a level where only luffy?s strongest attacks will put him down for the count. ( which may not even hit I may I add.)




> Seriously Go actually READ a Spiderman comic, and stop taking your information from some one-sided respect thread.



Believe what you wish, I really don?t care, ( like seriously, I am laughing right now.) you?re the one getting all flustered up and making inaccurate assumptions about me because?..well, I don?t know. You just feel like it? Or maybe you just have a problem with me because of a certain thread I made? I don?t know. And don?t care.



> The VERY PURPOSE of his spidersense is to give preemptive warning so he can be out of danger BEFORE the danger strikes.




Did I state otherwise? Please don?t put words in my mouth.




> Not to mention without actually SEEING the bullet in the air all of his feats could go down the shitter, sense, or not. And the burden of proof falls on you to prove he's not dodgng the aim.




I am not the one that brought up the claim, you are. Why is the Burdon of proof on me? Isn?t that how it works? Who ever claims it has to prove it? ( you claimed that he is dodging the aim.)




> I'm referring to both, and your whole argument is a HUGE target that's already been shot in the neck, you just don't realize it's already on the ground, bleeding out the jugular.



That?s your opinion, which means nothing to me. That?s why I don?t retaliate.




> Argument ad nauseum fallacy.
> Me and others have already proven it to be far in excess of 100 tons, you'e just being dense as lead.




But have yet to tell me exactly where I went wrong with mine, I even took the number your side was using as the weigh for the gold. Your just telling I am wrong without giving any decent reason why.





> He has stars spinning around his head, and is trying to regain composure after getting hit. DUH.



Spiderman has been injured and fatigued many of times, and trust me, it is nothing like this. I have even stated that he gets back and continues the fight with hulk. (WITH NO VISABLE SIGNS OF INJURY OR FATIGUE.)




> Nowhere in that quote does it mention strength, all it says is that his volume increases, which doesn't have to equate to greater lifting power, basically you just used a non-sequiter fallacy.




I really don?t have to say any more or bring the scans, anyone here can tell that when his size increases, so does his strength. Give me an instance where this isn?t the case.





> USE YOUR COMMON SENSE. NO SHIT HE GOT FASTER. THERE'S A REASON WHY HE CAN'T HOPE TO HIT BLUENO IN WATER SEVEN BUT KICKS HIS ASS IN ENIES LOBBY, AND CAN THEN FIGHT EVENLY WIH LUCCI. WHY IS THE CONCEPT OF FICTIONAL POWERUPS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?



You have yet to disprove what I have said, luffy?s speed only increased when he was in gear second. His base stayed the same, the reason why he was able to hit blueno was purely because he could than reaction to soru and see him. 





> By your logic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## C. Hook (Jul 5, 2008)

As for the "Plot Plot no Mi moments..." I can understand that being used to describe Pell surviving. I do not understand how the hell Luffy lifting a gigantic golden ball for one panel is plot. If that's plot, what about leveling an entire city block? That's plot too? Then what about throwing Mohmoo? Is that plot? What about shooting people to other islands? Are those mere PIS too? No, they aren't, and you know it.

Calling a tangible strength feat that is not in anyway related to the character winning or surviving "plot" is no more then an attempt to avoid countering that feat.

Hell, why is an obvious rapestomp like this still going on? Zoro, who's SLOWER than Luffy, dodges bullets on a daily basis. He's shown that he can easily move parts of his body faster than bullets. The CP9 move faster than bullets when using soru, because BULLET-TIMERS CAN'T SEE THEM MOST OF THE TIME. Luffy moves so fast in Gear 2 that Blueno couldn't even react to his attacks. Blueno claimed that Luffy's Gear 2 is faster than his soru. Therefore, Gear 2 moves faster than a bullet. 

Luffy managed to level an entire fucking city block by punching the bedrock below it repeatedly. He lifted a gold ball that weighs in access of 300 tons above his shoulders. He launched Wapol to another island with a single bazooka. He launched Buggy to another island with that same attack. He's broken through armor that has resisted cannonballs in one of his first appearances. He breaks through steel with his fingertips. He broke Arlong's nose, which could resist getting cut by a fully healed Zoro (According to Arlong). He collapsed an entire several-story building with one attack (Arlong Park). 

He has survived punches that break islands in half with no ill affects (Shadow Asguard). He has survived the damage of a hook going straight through his chest, getting his entire body dehydrated, deadly poison that can melt a rock in a few seconds running through his veins, and punching repeatedly through several layers of bedrock, all of these feats having happened on the same day (Alabasta). He's tanked repeated damage to his insides from Lucci's two rokuoguns. Bullets don't affect him, cannonballs don't affect him, and no external blunt trauma other than Garp's "fist of love" and Nami's punch has cause him pain.

What do these feats signal? They signal Luffy is the clear winner here, since Spidy isn't webbing him anytime soon. If Spidy does web him, Luffy uses the web to slam Spidy into the buildings. The spider stingers won't stop Luffy either, since he still managed to break through several meters of bedrock while poisoned by another deadly poison that MELTS ROCKS.

I'm done with this thread. The thread creator showed that he isn't willing to let Spidey win when he edited the first post, and the Spidey fans do nothing but call all feats put forward for Luffy "plot." Counter my arguments and have fun with that.


----------



## lambda (Jul 5, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> most of his fights with hulk has him dodging punches and blows that would normally leave him reduced  to a bloody mess. that suffices formine. but If you want scans, than I will give you some tomorrow, right now ( after this post,) I am outta here. To beat to continue for today.


 So you're agreeing that Parker can't take the Hulk's punches? Finally.


----------



## Cerō2 (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm curious how luffy's strength feats are considered SVFL when he does them on a consistent basis?


----------



## Tash (Jul 5, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> What? Now that’s what where using to judge the amount of damage an attack can input? I could say the same for luffy and his many “ do no collateral damageto” attacks, how do you determine those? By strength level? If so, than hulk’s is still above luffy’s. in which case it matters not if he tanked with ease or not. since luffy can’t create the same level of power and sin’t as strong.


You're beating up on a strawman thar bud, I never said Luffy is stronger than Hulk. Nor is Hulk even the topic of this thread. Nor is his maximum strength related to this thread when spiderman has never been exposed to it.





> Like what?


Like anything inconvenient to my argument, just like you're trying to do.






> Already addressed this.


You were addressing an argument you created for convenience. You're firing your missiles at china when my base is in Jersey.






> Hulk did that casually, that is his given strength I am demonstrating. A thunderclap, even if at low level would still be above anything luffy has in his arsenal. Can luffy make tidal waves by merely moving his arms?


And yet none of that power, casual or otherwise is present in THIS example, I really don't give a darn about whatever volcanoes some stronger Hulk version can stop, because THIS example that falls under Luffy, is the only one you can equate to spiderman. And honestly you need professional help if you can see the difference between the tidal wave causing clap, and one that doesn't affect the surroundings in the least.





> “Oh My GOD. You completely destroyed my point with this ten word ( edited.) cop-out completely void of any contradicting facts or proof.”


I love this. Basically in an attempt to one up me, you completely miss the fact that the contradiction is presented in your own evidence paling in comparison to my destroyed battleship, my leveled bedrock, and my defeated Moria. Basically I don't need more than that, your argument destroys itself, which makes this post empty posturing, based on your failure to recognize a difference in power.









> no, they really aren’t. hulks strength is magnitudes beyond luffy’s to the point that even his littlest thunderclaps are beyond anything luffy has ever done. Spiderman barely took one of these, thus putting him in a level where only luffy’s strongest attacks will put him down for the count. ( which may not even hit I may I add.)


And yet, all those other thunderclaps that blow Luffy's out the water are not related to spiderman. And the little one you're claiming is, and the one that knocked spidey down is nowhere close to Luffy's destructive power. No amount of weaseling changes the fact that spiderman didn't take a building leveling clap, or a country destroying clap, or a dimension destroying clap, he took a clap that flashed, and didn't affect the surroundings.





> Believe what you wish, I really don’t care, ( like seriously, I am laughing right now.) you’re the one getting all flustered up and making inaccurate assumptions about me because…..well, I don’t know. You just feel like it? Or maybe you just have a problem with me because of a certain thread I made? I don’t know. And don’t care.


Let's get to what the _true_ motive of this post is. In a desperate attempt to save face in light of your sinking argument, you try to convince us, and probably yourself that you don't care, and were not putting very much effort into the argument. Which would normally cheapen the value of debunking your argument and make yourself look more credible for being aloof. Next you question my demeanor to take away from me and my arguments credibility, teh internets is serious biznass, yadda yadda, and all that other good stuff. Then in another attempt to indirectly attack my argument you call it inaccurate despite you missing the point behind several of my points. Then you question my motives based on your posting history and some Rild esque paranoia. All alarms are blazing, cue self-destruction of your argument.






> Did I state otherwise? Please don’t put words in my mouth.



Again I feel the need to ask if you're even aware of what part of the argument that is to be responding like this?





> I am not the one that brought up the claim, you are. Why is the Burdon of proof on me? Isn’t that how it works? Who ever claims it has to prove it? ( you claimed that he is dodging the aim.)


You're opposing my facts on why he was dodging your aim, with nothing else other than asking for proof, which I have given. So no, now burden lies on you to prove he was dodging the bullets rather than the aim. Have fun with that.






> That’s your opinion, which means nothing to me. That’s why I don’t retaliate.


BREAKING NEWS: Tony doesn't care that his argument has been shot down and degressed into him reiterating himself blindly in hopes of countering the much better constructed pro-luffy argument. In related news the pro-luffy argument can accurately counter half his "argument" by calling Ad nauseum fallacy. More at ten.







> But have yet to tell me exactly where I went wrong with mine, I even took the number your side was using as the weigh for the gold. Your just telling I am wrong without giving any decent reason why.


Tanukibeast posted his own calculations, which you ignored.
I posted calculations, which you ignored.
In spite of exact math you say " B-BUT IT LOOKZ LIKE DIS SO IT WHEYS DIS MUCH"
Yup, you pretty much got a classic case of ad nauseum syndrome.





> Spiderman has been injured and fatigued many of times, and trust me, it is nothing like this. I have even stated that he gets back and continues the fight with hulk. (WITH NO VISABLE SIGNS OF INJURY OR FATIGUE.)


Shoot aaaaaand, miss! I suppose it sucks the scan you chose to post out of that whole ordeal is the one with a blow from base Hulk being enough to knock down, and disorient Spiderman.







> I really don’t have to say any more or bring the scans, anyone here can tell that when his size increases, so does his strength. Give me an instance where this isn’t the case.


Appeal to popularity AND Burden of Proof fallacy in one post? You trying to set a record?







> You have yet to disprove what I have said, luffy’s speed only increased when he was in gear second. His base stayed the same, the reason why he was able to hit blueno was purely because he could than reaction to soru and see him.


Wow, not only do you contradict your own point here, you pretty much restate the same thing I said in the post before. lol.





> I simply asked you a question and even made it clear I didn’t have an exact instance where he dodged a bullet ( me looking for it.) stop putting words in my mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> I made no comment on that.


Let me ask you a question, do you even know why I brought those up? Because I know you aren't answering like this to the original reason I brought these up.












> Name some and why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 5, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> What? It's an island. It's essentially a floating island with a rudder, a mast, and some woodwork around the sides. I don't see how you could not call it an island. Not only that, but Moria cracked the land part of the island, so you can't just claim he cracked the wooden part.
> 
> Just in case you conveniently forgot to look at Ashtar's scan...
> wires



It's a ship. It's a barque with some dirt and rocks on it, but it's a ship.


----------



## Tash (Jul 5, 2008)

I really never got the hub bub about if it's a ship or island when Moria lost power/shadows before hitting Luffy, and he needs a convenient thousand shadows to use that form.


----------



## Cerō2 (Jul 5, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> It's a ship. It's a barque with some dirt and rocks on it, but it's a ship.



No, it's an island inside a ship. . .But if you wanna argue that he just cracked the entire ship which is bigger than the island itself be my guest.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jul 5, 2008)

Emperor Ashtar said:


> No, it's an island inside a ship. . .But if you wanna argue that he just cracked the entire ship which is bigger than the island itself be my guest.



It's a ship. I don't give a darn about how big it is, it's a fucking ship. The fact that it's a ship is in the name of the arc.


----------



## Cerō2 (Jul 5, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> It's a ship. I don't give a darn about how big it is, it's a fucking ship.The fact that it's a ship is in the name of the arc.



Shown to have and stated to have an island from West Blue built into it. 

Besides, who said it wasn't a ship?


----------



## Jinibea (Jul 6, 2008)

Its a ship thought not an island.Its floating around on wood.Its a ship.Even if it has a built in Island on it it is still a ship.Get over it.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 6, 2008)

They're fighting in the middle of the buster call.
Spidey is not wanted by the goverment so he clings himself on the side of a ship and they (condition of the cp9 wasn't specified so they're here and they all healthy) anihalate Luffy while Peter gets away


----------



## skiboydoggy (Jul 6, 2008)

It's an island ship, like Water 7 is going to be someday. What's so difficult about that?

And I find it amusing that Tony, who refused to believe that Hulk could annihilate most of Bleach with his claps, is gimping up those claps to justify Spiderman's defences.


----------



## Cerō2 (Jul 6, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> Its a ship thought not an island.Its floating around on wood.Its a ship.Even if it has a built in Island on it it is still a ship.Get over it.




 I said it has an island built into the ship on the inside. . .Who said it's not a ship?


----------



## C. Hook (Jul 6, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> It's a ship. It's a barque with some dirt and rocks on it, but it's a ship.



You know, it's not good to lie...

Link removed

Seriously, did you fucking read the scans we provided?

Unless you think repeating an argument that's been countered several times is funny, I suggest you stop.


----------



## BAD BD (Jul 6, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> It's an island ship, like Water 7 is going to be someday. What's so difficult about that?
> 
> And I find it amusing that Tony, who refused to believe that Hulk could annihilate most of Bleach with his claps, is gimping up those claps to justify Spiderman's defences.



Bleach durability > Spiderman durability


----------



## TonyG416 (Jul 6, 2008)

lambda said:


> So you're agreeing that Parker can't take the Hulk's punches? Finally.



well, he could take one I am sure?.if hulk wasn?t putting his all in it?




Tash said:


> You're beating up on a strawman thar bud, I never said Luffy is stronger than Hulk.



And I never said you said that. I was simply trying to figure out why you where using collateral damage as a means to guide attack power.



> Nor is Hulk even the topic of this thread. Nor is his maximum strength related to this thread when spiderman has never been exposed to it.



Well, first of all, hulk doesn?t have a maximum strength level. Second of all, hulk is involved here because spidey fought him, and even survived one of his attacks. So, in order for luffy to be able to kill spidey. His attacks must be above what hulk did in order to kill spidey. Additionally, hulk?s BASE strength level showed the capability to create tidal waves. Even a simple little thunderclap is above most of what luffy has even done.




> Like anything inconvenient to my argument, just like you're trying to do.



You where referring to feats ? I misrepresented?, I asked which ones. Please give me them.




> And yet none of that power, casual or otherwise is present in THIS example, I really don't give a darn about whatever volcanoes some stronger *Hulk version *can stop,



It?s the same hulk. No difference.



> because THIS example that falls under Luffy, is the only one you can equate to spiderman. And honestly you need professional help if you can see the difference between the *tidal wave causing clap*, and one that doesn't affect the surroundings in the least.



Um, What are you talking about? Please reread the scan I brought.



exactly where do you see hulk clapping? He just moves his arms out and causes the tidal wave. I brought that to show you what happens when he does something as simple as that, now. Imagine a thunderclap? Even a little one, being fired straight in your face. Surviving is a feat in its own, luffy has nothing that can come close to that.




> I love this. Basically in an attempt to one up me, you completely miss the fact that the contradiction is presented in your own evidence paling in comparison to my destroyed battleship, my leveled bedrock, and my defeated Moria.



I showed you a scan of what hulks casual arm movements can due, a thunderclap, even at low level should still be above those you mentioned. You can?t disprove this. Hulks arm movements are almost above anything luffy has done. What do you think his thunderclaps, even at low level are? 



> Basically I don't need more than that, your argument destroys itself, which makes this post empty posturing, based on your failure to recognize a difference in power.



Oh I beg to differ, in actuality, I do agree with you on the note of a difference in power??you know, hulk?s and luffy?s. 



> And yet, all those other thunderclaps that blow Luffy's out the water are not related to spiderman. And the little one you're claiming is, and the one that knocked spidey down is nowhere close to Luffy's destructive power.



Oh jeez, *sigh*, when has luffy shown enough physical power to create tidal waves by simply moving his arms about? Never. Now( once again, *SIMPLY MOVING HIS ARMS ABOUT DID THAT*.) The thunderclap is one of hulks most powerful moves, and being hit by it in near point blank range while hulks fighting is no feat to put below luffy?s attacks. even at low level they stomp luffy?s most destructive moves.




> No amount of weaseling changes the fact that spiderman didn't take a building leveling clap, or a country destroying clap,



Are those the only that can outclass luffy?s attacks? Because I have scans to prove you wrong. The Thunderclaps that I can show you didn?t destroy building?s, but still van outclass almost everything luffy?s ever evidenced in terms of power. 



> or a dimension destroying clap,



oh for the love of, for the last time. it didn?t destroy the dimension!. I don?t even think that hulk?s ever pulled off a dimension destroying clap, MAYBE, punch. But not clap.



> he took a clap that flashed, and didn't affect the surroundings.



Ok, So your saying that all attacks of all variants must demonstrate a substantial amount collateral damage to really be a threat to anyone, yes?




> Let's get to what the _true_ motive of this post is. In a desperate attempt to save face in light of your sinking argument, you try to convince us, and probably yourself that you don't care, and were not putting very much effort into the argument. Which would normally cheapen the value of debunking your argument and make yourself look more credible for being aloof. Next you question my demeanor to take away from me and my arguments credibility, teh internets is serious biznass, yadda yadda, and all that other good stuff. Then in another attempt to indirectly attack my argument you call it inaccurate despite you missing the point behind several of my points. Then you question my motives based on your posting history and some Rild esque paranoia. All alarms are blazing, cue self-destruction of your argument.



Wow, and I am the paranoid one? your over thinking this way to much man. I really just don?t care, Its that simple. I don?t know why you find that so hard to believe. But hey, if you won?t listen to me and persist on finding out the ? true motives of what I mean?  than please, by all means continue. I won?t be a party popper, knock yourself out.



> Again I feel the need to ask if you're even aware of what part of the argument that is to be responding like this?




Yes, I do, you where stating something as if you thought I didn?t know or mistook it for something else ( spider sense.) and I was informing you that I did, and for you not to put words in my mouth?.that?s all.



> You're opposing my facts on why he was dodging your aim, with nothing else other than *asking for proof, which I have given*. So no, now burden lies on you to prove he was dodging the bullets rather than the aim. Have fun with that.




You have given *PROOF *of this? Sorry if I missed it?..but please give it again.


*BREAKING NEWS: Tony doesn't care that his argument has been shot down and degressed into him reiterating himself blindly in hopes of countering the much better constructed pro-luffy argument. In related news the pro-luffy argument can accurately counter half his "argument" by calling Ad nauseum fallacy. More at ten.*

Once more, your OPINON, which means nothing.




> Tanukibeast posted his own calculations, which you ignored.



Correction, I acknowledge them and even used a part of it to compile my response to his.



> I posted calculations, which you ignored.



Post ( after?.so there is no misunderstanding.) me aggressing Tanukibeast? Give me the quote of this CALC and not just words used in fancy succession to delude the mind of the fact that you actually didn?t really answer it at all.




> In spite of exact math you say " B-BUT IT LOOKZ LIKE DIS SO IT WHEYS DIS MUCH"



No actually.




> Shoot aaaaaand, miss! I suppose it sucks the scan you chose to post out of that whole ordeal is the one with a blow from base Hulk being enough to knock down, and disorient Spiderman.



First of all how does this make him injured and fatigued? Second of all, what do you mean by ? base hulk?? he doesn?t have gears or saiyan transformations last I checked.



> Appeal to popularity AND Burden of Proof fallacy in one post? You trying to set a record?



Lol at this post, I really don?t have to bring scans, its common sense. If someone gave you a way to increase your size than wouldn?t you be able to lift everything from cars to trucks and etc?..with ease? Even though you couldn?t normally in your own standard size? Now, to someone that has 85 tons standard strength level, and can increase his size ( in a potentially unlimited manner.) than should his strength indefinitely transcend 100 class and so forth?



> But if you want something more than just my words than read this quote on sandman?s strength.





> Superhuman Strength: As a consequence of having a body composed of animated sand, the Sandman possesses phenomenal superhuman strength, able to lift up to 85 tons *under optimal conditions.*




Did you hear that? ?*optimal *conditions?.




> Wow, not only do you contradict your own point here,



How so?




> you pretty much restate the same thing I said in the post before. lol.



I restated my point first and than stated why. Some of my points where similar to yours, but I elaborated more on it. To prove mine.




> Let me ask you a question, do you even know why I brought those up? Because I know you aren't answering like this to the original reason I brought these up.



Ok??





> Ichigo magically gaining more vaizard time,



It wasn?t completely explained why, but nevertheless?..

Link removed
Link removed


This is more than what can be said about luffy?s case.





> SP magically gaining timestop,



Who?s he? And that doesn?t prove your point, gaining a new power is different from an original power suddenly going up for no reason. What you are saying here matters not. ( I am sure that that person simply had the ability all along anyways.)



> Gash going from piss weak to knocking people meters back in days. Why?



Mommodo?s are naturally strong creatures that gain power as they train and eat exponentially quicker than humans due. This was elaborated on in the show.



> There is no Why, that's the point.



There is actually, and FYI those cases didn?t involve frickin two minute or less sudden power ups when it mattered most. At least sufficient time was needed for the power boost.





> Because we see the bullets flying mid-air, and while we see them flying mid-air we see character reacting to them. Nice attempt at a "NO U" argument though.



Scans of this.


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## Rashou (Jul 6, 2008)

^Since they were requested here are scans of Zoro bullet timing, and we all know that Whiskey Peak Zoro >>> Current Luffy: 
this should do 

That's Zoro doing a pretty insane bullet timing feat of moving a 50 kg or so man in the way of bullet fire before the projectiles even traveled ten meters. Then there's the cannonball feat and Luffy dashing in front of Zoro to take the bullets that would hit him back in the Morgan Arc. Oh, and Luffy using his Gomu Gomu no Balloon to bounce a cannonball into Baratie during Sanji's arc.


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## Tash (Jul 7, 2008)

TonyG416 said:


> And I never said you said that. I was simply trying to figure out why you where using collateral damage as a means to guide attack power.


Collateral damage is how we determine an attacks power. And note that it's not in you saying it, it's in you arguing it.





> Well, first of all, hulk doesn?t have a maximum strength level. Second of all, hulk is involved here because spidey fought him, and even survived one of his attacks. So, in order for luffy to be able to kill spidey. His attacks must be above what hulk did in order to kill spidey. Additionally, hulk?s BASE strength level showed the capability to create tidal waves. Even a simple little thunderclap is above most of what luffy has even done.


You remember that self-destruction I talked about? Starts here. Watch me completely void your argument on Spidermans durability by calling a basic logical fallacies. Association Fallacy.






> You where referring to feats ? I misrepresented?, I asked which ones. Please give me them.


Do you even read these post? What you're misrepresenting should be clear by now.






> It?s the same hulk. No difference.


Tony attempts to justify the association fallacy. But it failed.





> Um, What are you talking about? Please reread the scan I brought.
> 
> 
> 
> exactly where do you see hulk clapping? He just moves his arms out and causes the tidal wave. I brought that to show you what happens when he does something as simple as that, now. Imagine a thunderclap? Even a little one, being fired straight in your face. Surviving is a feat in its own, luffy has nothing that can come close to that.


Honestly the great part about this is your argument has regressed to you typing out useless paragraphs that would just as well serve their purpose if you only wrote a sentence. Still Association fallacy.





> I showed you a scan of what hulks casual arm movements can due, a thunderclap, even at low level should still be above those you mentioned. You can?t disprove this. Hulks arm movements are almost above anything luffy has done. What do you think his thunderclaps, even at low level are?


See above. And at a low level, I think they are what you have shown, flash and no damage.





> Oh I beg to differ, in actuality, I do agree with you on the note of a difference in power??you know, hulk?s and luffy?s.


Red herring fallacy.





> Oh jeez, *sigh*, when has luffy shown enough physical power to create tidal waves by simply moving his arms about? Never. Now( once again, *SIMPLY MOVING HIS ARMS ABOUT DID THAT*.) The thunderclap is one of hulks most powerful moves, and being hit by it in near point blank range while hulks fighting is no feat to put below luffy?s attacks. even at low level they stomp luffy?s most destructive moves.


Again, argument based on association fallacy, attempts at a strawman, and red herring for attempting to turn this into Hulk vs Luffy.






> Are those the only that can outclass luffy?s attacks? Because I have scans to prove you wrong. The Thunderclaps that I can show you didn?t destroy building?s, but still van outclass almost everything luffy?s ever evidenced in terms of power.


Other scans to prove me wrong, but that does nothing when your durability argument is based off of one scan, that is not those other scans. You can punch a brick wall until your hand breaks, still not changing the fact that all you have is an association fallacy.





> oh for the love of, for the last time. it didn?t destroy the dimension!. I don?t even think that hulk?s ever pulled off a dimension destroying clap, MAYBE, punch. But not clap.


Good, good, also not relevant.





> Ok, So your saying that all attacks of all variants must demonstrate a substantial amount collateral damage to really be a threat to anyone, yes?


No.





> Wow, and I am the paranoid one? your over thinking this way to much man. I really just don?t care, Its that simple. I don?t know why you find that so hard to believe. But hey, if you won?t listen to me and persist on finding out the ? true motives of what I mean?  than please, by all means continue. I won?t be a party popper, knock yourself out.


I like how you basically reaffirm eveything I said before.





> Yes, I do, you where stating something as if you thought I didn?t know or mistook it for something else ( spider sense.) and I was informing you that I did, and for you not to put words in my mouth?.that?s all.


Incorrect.





> You have given *PROOF *of this? Sorry if I missed it?..but please give it again.


You look like you're having trouble, so I'll help you out. Re-read my responses to your post and see if you can spot what I'm using as proof to back up my points, and what my points actually are.






> Once more, your OPINON, which means nothing.


It's funny cuz it basically all proved true. Even more funny that you thought it being my opinion invalidated it. 






> Correction, I acknowledge them and even used a part of it to compile my response to his.


So you basically took exact math and perverted it with your assumptions (which have so far proven themselves incorrect) on composition? Sweet life.





> Post ( after?.so there is no misunderstanding.) me aggressing Tanukibeast? Give me the quote of this CALC and not just words used in fancy succession to delude the mind of the fact that you actually didn?t really answer it at all.


lol aggressing. And you can reread my posts in this thread for them, it's not my job to spoon feed you.






> No actually.


I gotcha in mah sights.






> First of all how does this make him injured and fatigued? Second of all, what do you mean by ? base hulk?? he doesn?t have gears or saiyan transformations last I checked.


People don't fall on their asses seeing stars from blows that didn't injure them. And base Hulk is an unenraged class 85 or so Hulk.




> Lol at this post, I really don?t have to bring scans, its common sense. If someone gave you a way to increase your size than wouldn?t you be able to lift everything from cars to trucks and etc?..with ease? Even though you couldn?t normally in your own standard size? Now, to someone that has 85 tons standard strength level, and can increase his size ( in a potentially unlimited manner.) than should his strength indefinitely transcend 100 class and so forth?


Not common sense, the words you were looking for were non-sequitor fallacy. Marvel strength classes are based on lifting power, gaining more mass doesn't mean you'll necessarily lift more, it only contributes to force output, which even in the end there is nothing to put it in the hundred ton range. "Exponentially" is completely relative.







> Did you hear that? ?*optimal *conditions?.


Way to shoot yourself in the ass. Want more bullets?






> How so?


Because you started that part of your post going in a good direction, then you veer off an end up providing more proof for my own argument there.






> I restated my point first and than stated why. Some of my points where similar to yours, but I elaborated more on it. To prove mine.



Nope, everything you said pretty much donates to the fact that Luffy got faster. Nice try though.




> Ok??


Concession accepted.







> It wasn?t completely explained why, but nevertheless?..
> 
> Rankyaku Lupus Four's
> Rankyaku Lupus Four's
> ...


And again you attempt to expand on the examples, to make an argument. Give a man an inch. Red herring. ANYWAY since I see you jump at the chance to veer this off course, powerups not being explained does not mean they didn't happen. /discussion







> Scans of this.


I wonder if you thought it would be hard. Either way Rashou owned you.


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## HumanWine (Jul 7, 2008)

wtf is this bullshit about Spiderman surviving thunderclaps. Lol, WWH thunderclapped most of the Xmen and they are still up and about.


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## BAD BD (Jul 7, 2008)

bananamonkey121 said:


> Luffy wins. He is faster, more agile, way stronger, and more durable.
> What can Spidey do to harm Luffy?



Dodge lasers.


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## mystictrunks (Jul 7, 2008)

bananamonkey121 said:


> Luffy wins. He is faster, more agile, way stronger, and more durable.
> What can Spidey do to harm Luffy?


B-B-B-But Spiderman held up 1/4 of the Daily Bugle in 1986, it had a holographic cover and everything.


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## TonyG416 (Jul 7, 2008)

Tash said:


> Collateral damage is how we determine an attacks power. And note that it's not in you saying it, it's in you arguing it.



So what about attacks like rob lucci?s Rokuougan technique? It does almost no collateral damage but clearly is extremely powerful. what do we use to justify its destructive power if collateral damage is the only way?




> You remember that self-destruction I talked about? Starts here. Watch me completely void your argument on Spidermans durability by calling a basic logical fallacies. Association Fallacy.



Call it whatever you want man.




> Do you even read these post? What you're misrepresenting should be clear by now.




Still haven?t answered my question, stop avoiding it, just give it to me.




> Tony attempts to justify the association fallacy. But it failed.



I simply corrected you man, I wasn?t trying to justify anything.




> Honestly the great part about this is your argument has regressed to you typing out useless paragraphs that would just as well serve their purpose if you only wrote a sentence. Still Association fallacy.



Once more, I was simply correcting you, you said it was a clap when in fact, it wasn?t. something like that is crucial information that if left the way it is. Works in your favor greatly. ( which I bet you  wouldn?t mind?.)




> See above. And at a low level, I think they are what you have shown, flash and no damage.



Is that so? So?..I guess if it is ?no damage??.you could tank the attack if it so came at you? Please answer this.





> Again, argument based on association fallacy, attempts at a strawman, and red herring for attempting to turn this into Hulk vs Luffy.



Oh by no means am I trying to do such, and FYI, your side was the one trying to do enel vs spiderman and spiderman vs lucci. I simply stated what spidey?s durability can tank, and what was needed to overcome that durability. Your just twisting my words.




> Other scans to prove me wrong, but that does nothing when your durability argument is based off of one scan, that is not those other scans. You can punch a brick wall until your hand breaks, still not changing the fact that all you have is an association fallacy.



That one scan is all I need, I have shown what hulk?s casual power level is to back up the level of power that one scan can do. Luffy needs to have something about hulk?s casual strength to even 




> Good, good, also not relevant.



hey man, you?re the one that brought it up. Not me. I simply corrected you.

No.

So what are you saying than? You say things like this?



> Collateral damage is how we determine an attacks power.



So if that?s the case, shouldn?t attacks that create no Collateral damage be nothing in terms of destructive power? thus do no damage to anyone?




> I like how you basically reaffirm eveything I said before.



*Sigh* ok man, whatever, I am exactly what you say I am. Don?t care.



> Incorrect.



What? Why?




> You look like you're having trouble, so I'll help you out. Re-read my responses to your post and see if you can spot what I'm using as proof to back up my points, and what my points actually are.




Why don?t you Just give me the quote?




> It's funny cuz it basically all proved true. Even more funny that you thought it being my opinion invalidated it.



This changes nothing, its still your opinion.



> So you basically took exact math and perverted it with your assumptions (which have so far proven themselves incorrect) on composition? Sweet life.



No, I really didn?t. I gave a logical answer. Even showed you the weight. You just ignored it. 




> lol aggressing.



Addressing, aggressing, my mistake. (your one to talk though?.you misspelled a couple words yourself??you may have edited it though..)



> And you can reread my posts in this thread for them, it's not my job to spoon feed you.



And I am the coup out king huh? Just give it to me.



> People don't fall on their asses seeing stars from blows that didn't injure them.



I really don?t consider that an injury, injuries are usually broken bones and etc?.not a minor daze. 



> And base Hulk is an unenraged class 85 or so Hulk.




Oh really? ( I will play your game.) give me the scan of this being stated.




> Not common sense, the words you were looking for were non-sequitor fallacy. Marvel strength classes are based on lifting power, gaining more mass doesn't mean you'll necessarily lift more,




Name an instance where this is the case. Please, bring some scans to back this up or hell, even instance where this happened.



> it only contributes to force output, which even in the end there is nothing to put it in the hundred ton range. "Exponentially" is completely relative.



When someone?s base strength is already abnormally great, it does indeed go into the hundred ton range.




> Way to shoot yourself in the ass. Want more bullets?




That works in my favor just so you know, optimal conditions mean that sandman usually chooses to go 85 tons normally, but he can go above that. This proves my point in sandman?s strength increasing. He just usually stays in 85 tons range category.




> Because you started that part of your post going in a good direction, then you veer off an end up providing more proof for my own argument there.




By saying he can react to soru speed? That?s not as fast as bullets, I see no contradiction on my part there.



> Nope, everything you said pretty much donates to the fact that Luffy got faster. Nice try though.



Yeah, in gear second, which is something I sated and still isn?t his base speed. It also isn?t stated to be as fast a bullets either. I don?t see where your going with this, you said luffy moved beyond bullet speed when he rushed lucci in base form. Nothing I have said proves your point.




> ANYWAY since I see you jump at the chance to veer this off course, powerups not being explained does not mean they didn't happen. /discussion



No, but they imbued with the almightily power of the fruit oda invented while not necessarily trying to do such, Plot plot no mi. though?.however, on another note I do accept your concession here.




> I wonder if you thought it would be hard. Either way Rashou owned you.



Yeah, its true, he own me quite nicely by bringing me ZORO feats. In fact, not including assumptions made by fans, ( which at times tend to  border down the lines of hypocrisy when bleach fans try it to use it to ..) has luffy ever directly bullet timed before? People just assume he can?.please bring me this scan.


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## Rashou (Jul 7, 2008)

> Yeah, its true, he own me quite nicely by bringing me ZORO feats. In fact, not including assumptions made by fans, ( which at times tend to  border down the lines of hypocrisy when bleach fans try it to use it to ..) has luffy ever directly bullet timed before? People just assume he can?.please bring me this scan.


Well, looks like I'm going to have to step in here a little... 

Here are the other feats of Luffy directly bullet timing.

1. Chapter three, where he Gomu Gomu no Rockets to the ground and dashes in front of Zoro to deflect bullets. 

2. This is actually cannonball timing, but cannonballs are pretty fast. The muzzle velocity of earlier cannons were form 550 m/s-700 m/s (I think, the second number came from Limit_Tester's calcs a while back, I used the first). Now there is some delay in the projectile making contact with Luffy, obviously, but given that the ships were pretty close (so close the cannon didn't need to be tilted upwards for aim), the decrease in velocity shouldn't have dropped it below standard bullet speed. 

3. And it's true I gave you a feat concerning Zoro, but like I said in the post, Whiskey Peak Zoro <<<< current Luffy. But even looking at Whiskey Peak Zoro and Luffy, Luffy clashed evenly with Zoro, both using their strongest attacks pretty fiercely. Suggesting that Zoro without a rope and a 50 kg. man attached to his arm can swing his swords at least the same speed, which is greater than bullet speed, is only logical given everything.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Jul 7, 2008)

Why is this sham of a thread still going on?  Why has a mod not locked it yet?

It's plain to see that Spider-Man can't win, even if there was a way for him to.  Jinibea has already changed the OP twice in two different situations to prevent Spider-Man from having any chance.  If anyone finds a way for Spidey to take it he'll change it again.  It's obvious to see that Jinibea just wants to see Luffy beat Spider-Man.  You guys continuing this debate are just wasting your energy since it's impossible for Luffy to lose due to the circumstances of the fight changing whenever the chance of a loss for Luffy comes up.


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## HumanWine (Jul 7, 2008)

Its not like he needed to change the OP. Gatling gun makes Spiderman's senses go crazy thus beginning and ending the raep.


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## lambda (Jul 7, 2008)

Snake Plissken said:


> Why is this sham of a thread still going on?  Why has a mod not locked it yet?
> 
> It's plain to see that Spider-Man can't win, even if there was a way for him to.  Jinibea has already changed the OP twice in two different situations to prevent Spider-Man from having any chance.  If anyone finds a way for Spidey to take it he'll change it again.  It's obvious to see that Jinibea just wants to see Luffy beat Spider-Man.  You guys continuing this debate are just wasting your energy since it's impossible for Luffy to lose due to the circumstances of the fight changing whenever the chance of a loss for Luffy comes up.


Pretty sure most people aren't even paying attention to those changes. Not that it matters, Spider-man never stood a chance.


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## Jinibea (Jul 7, 2008)

Snake Plissken said:


> Why is this sham of a thread still going on?  Why has a mod not locked it yet?
> 
> It's plain to see that Spider-Man can't win, even if there was a way for him to.  Jinibea has already changed the OP twice in two different situations to prevent Spider-Man from having any chance.  If anyone finds a way for Spidey to take it he'll change it again.  It's obvious to see that Jinibea just wants to see Luffy beat Spider-Man.  You guys continuing this debate are just wasting your energy since it's impossible for Luffy to lose due to the circumstances of the fight changing whenever the chance of a loss for Luffy comes up.



I changed it because I didn't want a cheap win like hurling him in the water.The buster call was just something to help both of them.The marines are hunting luffy not spiderman so There going after luffy.plus Spidermans spidey sense is going  crazy because of the bustercall.And for your information i like Spiderman more then luffy and if I wanted luffy get a cheap win I would pit him against Naruto.So next time you post try shit about someone make sure you know what your talking about.You just made yourself look like a dumbass.


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## Banhammer (Jul 7, 2008)

Buster call right?
Spiderman wacks the seastone off the bottom of the ships and whacks luffy to the ocean with it.

You know, if doing something as plain as turning invisible (spiderman prime includes Iron Spider Suit) and waiting for the marines ot finish luffy off dosen't work


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## HumanWine (Jul 7, 2008)

the ppl at herochat are laughing us for that Wolverine vs the Strawhats thread, now this.

GG


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (Jul 7, 2008)

Jinibea said:


> I changed it because I didn't want a cheap win like hurling him in the water.The buster call was just something to help both of them.The marines are hunting luffy not spiderman so There going after luffy.plus Spidermans spidey sense is going  crazy because of the bustercall.And for your information i like Spiderman more then luffy and if I wanted luffy get a cheap win I would pit him against Naruto.So next time you post try shit about someone make sure you know what your talking about.You just made yourself look like a dumbass.



Sorry kid, but I go by the facts.  The facts are that when someone brought up Spider-Man using Spidey Sense, you added a buster call to eliminate it's effectiveness.  When someone brought up the fact that Spidey throws Luffy in the water, you changed it so he couldn't.  Here are some responses by you to people saying that Spider-Man could win:



> True but Spiderman has not shown any power that can match Lucci so Luffy wins.





> Spiderman has Shown no power to Hurt luffy.Sanji in one piece said that physical Blunt attacks are lowered by half.So Spidermans hits would be lowered.To Half.Spidey doesn't have Luffys speed and you know that.Spiderman gets hurt by regular attacks.Luffy got hit by an attack that can destroy Buildings and Battle ships and Survived with no Scratch on him.Spidey has shown nothing to compete with that.Oh and that pic you showed of spiderman speed I can counter that...With Zoro.
> Zoro in his sleep dodged a kunai.When spiderman can dodge a bullet in his sleep then we wil talk.





> okay here is one thing.When spiderman can defeat enemies like Lucci and Enel then we will talk.





> Like I said spiderman has no speed and has no power that can compare with luffy.Yes his Duribillity is strong but that will not help him much.So luffy wins get over it.




Sorry, but when you already know who is going to win coupled with making several changes to the fight circumstances so that the character you think will lose can't win, that makes it a spite thread.  So, if don't like it when people call you out for making a spite thread that is a waste of everyones time, try not making them.


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## ez (Jul 7, 2008)

closing + recycling this due to it being a spite thread and a mismatch.


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