# Sabo vs. DoFlamingo



## MYJC (Oct 26, 2014)

Match takes place on Banaro Island, starting distance is 60m. Couple caveats - 

-This is base Sabo, he does NOT have the Mera Mera no mi. Anything else is fair game. Sabo gets his pipe and DoFla can use Parasite if he's able to do so. 
-No prep. 
-As far as knowledge, just reputation. 
-In-character. 


Who takes this, and what diff? 


Bonus match: 

Sabo and Koala vs. DoFlamingo and Trebol. As above, no prep and no Mera Mera fruit.


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## Luke (Oct 26, 2014)

Doflamingo wins with extreme difficulty. 

Bonus: 

Doflamingo extreme diffs Sabo while Trebol high diffs Koala.


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## Canute87 (Oct 26, 2014)

The parasite thing is annoying.  I don't know How flamingo attaches it in the first place.


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## Dr. White (Oct 26, 2014)

Close match. Sabo should have beast COO to boot with his impressive COA and speed. It would be a match of Dofla trying to land hit's and or Parasite on Sabo, who'd be trying to get close and land a Dragon's breath. Dofla would have trouble hitting Sabo, and the latter's COA should allow him to keep up to at least a high diff fight. I'd say eventually though Dofla lands a clean hit, or hitches Parasite and from there it's gg.
*Doflamingo High to Extreme diff. *

In scenario 2 *Dofla and Trebol win High diff*. Koala should be able to hold her own against Trebol for a bit pending Usopp's and Robin's performance. She doesn't have to get close to hit him either, but overall he should mid to high diff her. Then he can help Doflamingo beat Sabo easier.


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## MYJC (Oct 26, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> The parasite thing is annoying.  I don't know How flamingo attaches it in the first place.




Yeah there has to be some sort of limit/weakness to Parasite that we don't know about. 

I can't help but notice he hasn't used it against Law or Luffy, and I'd think he would do so if it was as easy as it looks. Maybe you can block the strings if your CoA is good enough? I dunno. 

Then again he was able to get Jozu with it. Not to mention Sanji. Maybe it's much easier to land if you catch the person off-guard and much harder to land if the person is expecting it.


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## zoro (Oct 26, 2014)

S1) I think Sabo has better stats and Haki, but Doffy has hax and he can fly so it won't be a walk in the park for Boy with Pipe

S2) I'll give Koala some credit and assume she's close to M3 level. The duo takes it on the higher end of high diff


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## trance (Oct 27, 2014)

The first scenario is pretty close. I'd wager both have similar stats as well as CoA mastery. Still, Doffy has shown more solid physical strength/Haki feats and in addition to "Parasite", I'd give it to him but with a great amount of difficulty. No clue about the second scenario as Koala's strength is too difficult to place.


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## convict (Oct 27, 2014)

Since Sabo doesn't have feats I will compare his portrayal to Luffy and then derive a potential conclusion to him vs Doflamingo based on the knowledge that Luffy will eventually beat him this arc (with help most likely I realize). Needless to say, a lot of this is conjecture.

Sabo should be significantly stronger than Luffy right now because he is the brother figure who would always dominate him in his youth. Typically there should be an overt implication that the main character is even broaching the strength of a role-model figure like Sabo. Additionally, Sabo has just been introduced. This is the Sabo-hype phase we are undergoing in order to establish this character as a bonafide powerhouse, and one Luffy must aim to surpass, which he will likely do so later in the story. Keeping this in mind, Sabo should be far stronger than Luffy.

In terms of standing there is no reason whatsoever that Luffy should even compare to the revolutionary number 2 at the very beginning of the New World. Before Sabo was introduced I remember everyone and their mothers believed the revolutionary number 2 would be able to fight with admirals and the like ala Marco/Beckman. Sabo can almost do just that, but he isn't quite there yet as he also has room to grow.

Seeing base Sabo's fighting style revolves heavily around Haki and physicality, and that alone propelled him to his current position in the story and world, I suspect he is so superior to Luffy in that department where most of Luffy's attacks will be rendered completely useless by Sabo's CoA. He should also be quite a bit faster and stronger than Luffy.

Now Doflamingo: In terms of physicality he is probably not too far ahead of Luffy. His fruit is a significant factor in elevating him to a level above Luffy. Sure he is likely faster than Luffy and his Haki is obviously stronger as well, but at the end of the day Luffy will manage to take him down. Law will surely help but he is the one who will ultimately do the brunt of the work because Law is so injured. He will have to overcome Doflamingo's CoA Haki and at some point he will likely match him blow for blow. I cannot see him even remotely doing that against Sabo.

So in terms of stats (Haki, strength, speed) Doflamingo should be noticeably below Sabo. The main point of concern is his epic fruit and the things he can do with it. Right now we all are witnessing how he is absolutely dominating Luffy and Law with it. Without Law, Luffy would be thoroughly outclassed. However, I feel Sabo's durability should be able to contend with Doflamingo's razor sharp attacks to an extent. Because of his strength and Haki Sabo will also force Doflamingo into abusing distanced fruit techniques, which he can likely avoid with his speed. Luffy is lacking in these departments hence he is getting beaten like a rented mule.

Finally, Sabo didn't in fact push Fujitora into going all out so I doubt he is leagues ahead of Doflamingo or anything. Doflamingo also has significant world hype that I don't need to delve on, and thus he should put up a strong fight utilizing his fruit. Base Sabo high difficulty is my take on it, but things can change if he doesn't have an answer to parasite, which as of now seems invincible.


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## Sablés (Oct 27, 2014)

Not one to disagree wtih your posts Convict however





> Now Doflamingo: In terms of physicality he is probably not too far ahead of Luffy



this is  false. Luffy and Doflamingo have had direct contests of physical strength/Haki and Doflamingo has easily overwhelmed him on all accounts. The title of number two revolutionary isn't too grandstanding to place Sabo as leagues above Luffy either; we know Kuma and Ivankov are some of the highest-ranking members but they too are unlikely to defeat Luffy as he currently is.


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## convict (Oct 27, 2014)

We don't know that they are the highest ranking members. They are commanders just like Whitebeard had many commanders. These two would clearly be commanders even in a Yonkou crew. The revolutionaries probably have a number of commanders just like them to be a remotely credible threat. You can question why these two were shown to be alongside Dragon and not others, and that could simply be because Oda isn't willing to reveal other major revolutionaries yet.

And by physicality I was talking about speed and strength, not Haki, where Doflamingo is noticeably superior (yet I think Luffy will elevate his Haki during the fight and at least contend in that department). I also agree that Doflamingo is superior in speed and strength, but it shouldn't be overwhelmingly so as is likely the case with Sabo. Otherwise Luffy would have no chance in hell to win even with Law because Doflamingo also has a bitch of a fruit to deal with. Law showed that he can at least keep up with Doflamingo on a physical level just now when he is clashing swords with his strings, and on the bridge when he tagged Doflamingo.


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## Sablés (Oct 27, 2014)

convict said:


> We don't know that they are the highest ranking members. They are commanders just like Whitebeard had many commanders. These two would clearly be commanders even in a Yonkou crew. The revolutionaries probably have a number of commanders just like them to be a remotely credible threat. You can question why these two were shown to be alongside Dragon and not others, and that could simply be because Oda isn't willing to reveal other major revolutionaries yet.



Fair enough however they are the only comparisons to draw Sabo's current strength from, at least as far his position as number 2 is concerned. And it won't do him much good against DD beyond what his feats have already demonstrated.



> And by physicality I was talking about speed and strength, not Haki, where Doflamingo is noticeably superior (yet I think Luffy will elevate his Haki during the fight and at least contend in that department). I also agree that Doflamingo is superior in speed and strength, but it shouldn't be overwhelmingly so as is likely the case with Sabo. Otherwise Luffy would have no chance in hell to win even with Law because Doflamingo also has a bitch of a fruit to deal with. Law showed that he can at least keep up with Doflamingo on a physical level just now when he is clashing swords with his strings, and on the bridge when he tagged Doflamingo.



Doflaingo  crushed the best defense Luffy could make. Effectively ignored one of Luffy's signature attacks and has survived against one from an Admiral. I believe there's enough evidence to promote DD's stats a good deal above Luffy's, save for speed. 

Not much of a fan of "X will obviously beat Y this way" arguments because its entirely speculation. We don't know how or even if DD will fall here. It could be a joint combo from Luffy and Law, someone else may join the fray. DD may be taken off guard because of his arrogance. There are a myriad of factors here to consider beyond whether Luffy is close to DD in strength.


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## Magician (Oct 27, 2014)

Mingo wins, high-extreme diff due to devil fruit hax advantage.

Bonus:

Mingo and Trebol, low diff.

Trebol stomps Koala then helps Mingo defeat Sabo. I don't see Koala being any stronger than Mid trio level.


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## Amol (Oct 27, 2014)

Convict solo'd the thread.
Very good points Convict. I agree with you on every point.


convict said:


> This is the Sabo-hype phase we are undergoing in order to establish this character as a bonafide powerhouse


You are referring to Manga, right ?
Because in OL hype phase finished. We are currently in downplay phase.
Admirals can low diff him nowadays.


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## NO (Oct 27, 2014)

Day after day, this subforum continues to astound me with its fanfiction.

*Fact #1: *We don't know how much the MM helped in Sabo's continuously offpaneled fight with Fujitora, therefore, we do NOT know how strong pre-MM Sabo is besides the minor fact that he embarrassed the contestants in the final stage of the Colosseum. 

*Fact #2:* There is absolutely zero evidence we can use to correlate and compare Sabo's CoO or CoA with Doflamingo's.


Is this a good fight? Yeah, but it can not even be answered. It's featless character vs character with feats.


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## convict (Oct 27, 2014)

> Fair enough however they are the only comparisons to draw Sabo's current strength from, at least as far his position as number 2 is concerned. And it won't do him much good against DD beyond what his feats have already demonstrated.



I don't think we should draw a comparison at all because Sabo was explicitly stated to be their superior. He is above them in the hierarchy. The same way we shouldn't draw a comparison between Pica and Baby 5.



> Doflaingo crushed the best defense Luffy could make. Effectively ignored one of Luffy's signature attacks and has survived against one from an Admiral. I believe there's enough evidence to promote DD's stats a good deal above Luffy's, save for speed.
> 
> Not much of a fan of "X will obviously beat Y this way" arguments because its entirely speculation. We don't know how or even if DD will fall here. It could be a joint combo from Luffy and Law, someone else may join the fray. DD may be taken off guard because of his arrogance. There are a myriad of factors here to consider beyond whether Luffy is close to DD in strength.



I wouldn't necessarily call that the_ best _defense Luffy could make. All he did was muster a quick block with his arm, but yes he did coat it with Haki. The feat still stands regardless. Doflamingo overwhelmed Luffy. But I am sure you will agree that his attack didn't really hurt Luffy too much in the grand scheme of things and Luffy is largely completely fine. This leads me to believe that Doflamingo isn't in a different league physically. If Luffy steps up his game a bit and sheds his lackadaisical attitude he should put up a better fight seeing how even a heavily exhausted and wounded Law is doing as much. Once again, don't get me wrong, Doflamingo is stronger, he is faster, and he has better Haki, but I don't see an unsurmountable difference in that department. Luffy should rise up to at least be able to give a fight and with Law he should then be able to deal with the string fruit as well.

As for your second paragraph, note that at the very beginning of my post I stated that this was conjecture. This is my prediction about how events will play out. I can confidently say that my scenario is likely, but it doesn't have to go down that way no. ABC logic doesn't work all the time but in this case I am also trying to reason my way with how it plays out seeing both Dofla/Sabo's abilities, and I fully acknowledge that parasite can change things completely.



> You are referring to Manga, right ?



Yes.


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## Monster (Oct 27, 2014)

Sabo both scenarios


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## Sherlōck (Oct 27, 2014)

Going with Sabo.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 27, 2014)

Doffy with high high diff.
Doffy and Trebol with high diff.


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## Gohara (Oct 27, 2014)

1. Doflamingo wins with at least around high difficulty.  I estimate Doflamingo to be around Admiral level in terms of power.  Current Sabo without his Fire Fruit might be around Admiral level in terms of power, but so far I estimate him to be below that level, although not by a lot.

2. Doflamingo and Trebol win with at least around high difficulty.


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## Funk Soul B (Oct 30, 2014)

Sabos got the edge in all physical aspects and can account for doflamingos hax with his pipe if he doesnt have the speed to simply evade and get within range to pummel him. Parasite is the only really wildcard

Sabo mid diff


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## TheWiggian (Oct 30, 2014)

Funk Soul B said:


> Sabos got the edge in all physical aspects and can account for doflamingos hax with his pipe if he doesnt have the speed to simply evade and get within range to pummel him. Parasite is the only really wildcard
> 
> Sabo mid diff




Sabo doesnt have the stats, Haki, hype, portrayal and feats of an admiral to mid diff Doffy and a seat. He couldnt give Fuji a high diff fight, thought the latter held bk and was restricted.


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## Bohemian Knight (Oct 30, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> Sabo doesnt have the stats, Haki, hype, portrayal and feats of an admiral to mid diff Doffy and a seat. He couldnt give Fuji a high diff fight, thought the latter held bk and was restricted.



Uhhhh it was not mid-diff because it never ended. Fuji was "holding back" so the difficulty of the fight is in conclusive. I think it would have been at least on the border between mid and high diff (porbably higher), and my opinion is as good as anyone else's because there is not concrete evidence. Unless you're counting Sabo's sweat drops as feats for Fuji of course


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## TheWiggian (Oct 30, 2014)

Bohemian Knight said:


> Uhhhh it was not mid-diff because it never ended. Fuji was "holding back" so the difficulty of the fight is in conclusive. I think it would have been at least on the border between mid and high diff (porbably higher), and my opinion is as good as anyone else's because there is not concrete evidence. Unless you're counting Sabo's sweat drops as feats for Fuji of course




It doesnt change the fact that u think Sabo could mid diff Doffy because like u said theres no evidence and he dont got like i said be4 the feats and the portrayal, hype of an admiral to do so.


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## Freechoice (Oct 30, 2014)

Shit changes quickly here

I remember many people saying Sabo could easily take Doflamingo i.e. mid diff

What changed?

Was it Fuji vs Sabo? Or the scuffle between Law, Luffy, and Doflamingo?

As for me, I am undecided. Though I lean towards Sabo due to his ranking among Revolutionaries.

I am of the opinion that the revos are at least on par with the Yonko and thus 2nd in command revo should be roughly the same level as a first mate - and I don't consider Doflamingo to be that strength.

Sorry for my messed up wording, I'm trying to keep it together - I'm coming up right now


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## Shinthia (Oct 30, 2014)

IMO Sabo >=<Marco. So, Sabo solos in both scenarios.


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## Bohemian Knight (Oct 30, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> It doesnt change the fact that u think Sabo could mid diff Doffy because like u said theres no evidence and he dont got like i said be4 the feats and the portrayal, hype of an admiral to do so.



I think an admiral would low-diff Doffy


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## Gohara (Oct 30, 2014)

Bohemian Knight said:


> Uhhhh it was not mid-diff because it never ended. Fuji was "holding back" so the difficulty of the fight is in conclusive. I think it would have been at least on the border between mid and high diff (porbably higher), and my opinion is as good as anyone else's because there is not concrete evidence. Unless you're counting Sabo's sweat drops as feats for Fuji of course



Fujitora not going all out doesn't really matter here, because we don't know that Sabo was going all out.

Sabo panted for part of the fight, but even if we assume that Fujitora didn't pant during any of the fight, the latter did groan in pain and/or effort here:

Sabo: !! // (What is this man plotting?!!!)
Fujitora: Hnghhh!!!
Sabo: !
Fujitora: For good or for ill... / I?m prepared to put my own head on the line. // ...If I lose my dice before I roll ?em... / ...it?ll all be over before the game?s begun.

They clashed, and either Sabo's attack was hurting Fujitora at the time, or the latter was putting forth a lot of effort in the clash and was being pushed.

Either way, neither has shown to be notably more powerful than the other so far.

There's not really anything clearly suggesting that Doflamingo isn't around Admiral level in terms of power as well, so I estimate that current Sabo and Doflamingo are around the same level of power.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 30, 2014)

^ Too bad Trollhara ignores the beat up look Sabo had and Fuji moved on in a splendid condition. But oh well thatswhat trolls do.


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## Gohara (Oct 30, 2014)

Well, Sabo did have a dirt mark on his face, but it was wiped away the next page.  I would still say causing Fujitora to groan in pain and/or effort is comparable to Sabo panting some and having a dirt mark on his face briefly.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 30, 2014)

^  nice bubble world u live in


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## barreltheif (Oct 30, 2014)

With no Mera and no intel, Sabo doesn't have good chances. He's on the low end of yonkou first mate level, so there's not much of a gap between them, but I'd still put my money on Doffy.
Koala/Trebol don't make much of a difference.


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## Gohara (Oct 30, 2014)

@ Wiggian.

Well, if you disagree, you're more than welcome to prove otherwise.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 30, 2014)

^ read the manga if u want proof, btw hows the weather inside the bubble?


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## Nox (Oct 30, 2014)

MMnM Sabo > Sabo > Doflamingo. 

Without intel for Sabo, this match gets bumped to extreme difficulty and can go either way. Giving Sabo the edge.


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## Gohara (Oct 30, 2014)

@ Wiggian.

You're more than welcome to point out what in the Manga specifically disagrees with what I said here, and what chapter and page that happens on.  If you can't, then I don't see what the problem is.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 30, 2014)

^ so u still fail to admit that Sabo got beat up and couldnt give Fuji a good fight even thoight Issho was restricted and held bk? Indeed a very nice and stable bubble


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## Dellinger (Oct 30, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> IMO Sabo >=<Marco. So, Sabo solos in both scenarios.



Marco > Sabo.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 30, 2014)

I'll give it to Doflamingo both scenarios.


Lionel Messi said:


> IMO Sabo >=<Marco.


Issho humiliating Sabo (even when he was stalling for time and under restrictions) kind of sank that ship. I don't even think Sabo is above Jozu at this point.


lol said:


> Shit changes quickly here
> 
> I remember many people saying Sabo could easily take Doflamingo i.e. mid diff
> 
> ...


I guess so.


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## Krippy (Oct 31, 2014)

Sabo edges it. 

And by edges it I mean he crushes DD's skull like an egg.


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## Shinthia (Oct 31, 2014)

Tea said:


> Issho humiliating Sabo (even when he was stalling for time and under restrictions) kind of sank that ship. I don't even think Sabo is above Jozu at this point.



we have this debate already. I think Issho > Marco >=<Sabo > DD. I havent seen anything solid to change my mind.

Issho was using his named attack for the first time while Sabo used none of his named claw attack in a hand to hand combat (which earned him the No.2 spot in Rev not mera mera power). 
Issho had 2 restriction.
1. He he cant bring down the meteors because of BC but imo that would do more prob than good for Issho. Cause Issho himself is not immune to his attack while a logia Sabo is. See my point ?
2. He could not go all out because of peoples safety but thats not exclusive to him only . That applies to Sabo too.


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## Gohara (Oct 31, 2014)

@ Wiggian.

Well, I wouldn't really call having a dirt mark that was wiped away the next page getting beat up.  He fought on par with Fujitora, so I don't really see how that's not putting up a good fight against Fujitora.  Again, we don't know that Sabo went all out in that fight, so Fujitora not going all out in that fight doesn't handicap him in this case as far as we know.


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## Dellinger (Oct 31, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> we have this debate already. I think Issho > Marco >=<Sabo > DD. I havent seen anything solid to change my mind.
> 
> Issho was using his named attack for the first time while Sabo used none of his named claw attack in a hand to hand combat (which earned him the No.2 spot in Rev not mera mera power).
> Issho had 2 restriction.
> ...



Sabo already made it clear that he would do aanything to stop Fujitora from going after Luffy and the whole place they were fighting was on fire.Sabo was not holding back by any means because he had no reason to.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 31, 2014)

^ this explained it good.


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## Shinthia (Oct 31, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Sabo already made it clear that he would do aanything to stop Fujitora from going after Luffy and the whole side was on fire.Sabo was not holding back by any means because he had no reason to.



He is a Rev. who cares for people just like a GOOD Marine should. And Sabo did not need to kill Fuji to do his job but just keeping him busy would do. Which he did successfully.


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## Freechoice (Oct 31, 2014)

Yeah I don't think Sabo was going for the kill in the slightest lol


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## Dellinger (Oct 31, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> He is a Rev. who cares for people just like a GOOD Marine should. And Sabo did not need to kill Fuji to do his job but just keeping him busy would do. Which he did successfully.



He put Luffy's life above his duty as a revolutionary,he was scolded by Koala because of that.

Guys like Sabo can't keep Fujitora busy if they aren't serious


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## Freechoice (Oct 31, 2014)

.


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## Shinthia (Oct 31, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> He put Luffy's life above his duty as a revolutionary,he was scolded by Koala because of that.
> 
> Guys like Sabo can't keep Fujitora busy if they aren't serious



Its not like him saving Luffy & saving other people contradict each other. also if u r looking it this way then i can say something about Fuji too. If he really cared about people then he would take down DD first or would have been busy keeping people safe instead of sitting in his ass and doing nothing . But, i wount say such silly things to prove my point.


baseless statement


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## Gohara (Oct 31, 2014)

Current Sabo not wanting Fujitora to chase after current Luffy doesn't necessarily mean that current Sabo went all out in that fight.  It's possible that he doesn't have to go all out to fight on par with Fujitora- especially if Fujitora himself isn't going all out.

Part of the city being on fire only means that current Sabo used some fire based techniques.  However, we know that Fujitora used some gravity based techniques.  So that also doesn't mean that current Sabo used any more of his own power than Fujitora used of his.


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## Captain Altintop (Oct 31, 2014)

Mera Sabo > DD >= Sabo > Luffy > Trebol > Koala ~ Franky

S1) DD very high to extreme diff. DF advantage edges it out.

S2) Trebol mid-high / high diffs. Koala then join DD vs Sabo and the duo wins high diff.


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## Hosemisnuba (Nov 1, 2014)

One part of me wants Sabo to lose simply because I hate his PTS Ace 2.0 persona. The other part knows, for whatever reason, that Sabo is *probably* stronger, so, as much as I hate to say it, Sabo it is.


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## GIORNO (Nov 2, 2014)

Sabo takes both scenarios.

He should have significantly better Haki, and considering he's been training religiously for the past 12 years with Dragon, he's no fucking slouch.

DD's DF will be really tricky and he is a speedster but yeah, still think Sabo takes this.


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## GIORNO (Nov 2, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Sabo already made it clear that he would do aanything to stop Fujitora from going after Luffy and the whole place they were fighting was on fire.Sabo was not holding back by any means because he had no reason to.



He wasn't holding back, but he wasn't going all out either. Neither of them were fighting with their all though Sabo IMO was definitely more serious than Fuji.


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## Sablés (Nov 2, 2014)

convict said:


> I don't think we should draw a comparison at all because Sabo was explicitly stated to be their superior. He is above them in the hierarchy. The same way we shouldn't draw a comparison between Pica and Baby 5.



You're missing the point. Those 2 are the only individuals we can scale from because we have no idea how powerful the revolutionary army are in comparison to say the Yonkou albeit given their prerogative, we can assume they should be in  a similar tier of power.

Put it this way:

-Sabo is 2nd in command....meaning what exactly, unless we know what the men below him are capable of, that title means nothing at this level when DD himself should be par with the best of the WB pirates. Therefore hype can only go so far here

-Only other recourse is to powerscale. You can't do it from Dragon since Captains tend to be a good deal stronger than their first mates leaving only his subordinates to use as a measuring stick

-Stick to feats. In which case DD has more going for him overall.




> I wouldn't necessarily call that the_ best _defense Luffy could make. All he did was muster a quick block with his arm, but yes he did coat it with Haki. The feat still stands regardless. Doflamingo overwhelmed Luffy. But I am sure you will agree that his attack didn't really hurt Luffy too much in the grand scheme of things and Luffy is largely completely fine. This leads me to believe that Doflamingo isn't in a different league physically. If Luffy steps up his game a bit and sheds his lackadaisical attitude he should put up a better fight seeing how even a heavily exhausted and wounded Law is doing as much. Once again, don't get me wrong, Doflamingo is stronger, he is faster, and he has better Haki, but I don't see an unsurmountable difference in that department. Luffy should rise up to at least be able to give a fight and with Law he should then be able to deal with the string fruit as well.



True but I don't figure there are many characters left capable of destroying Luffy in melee in that fashion. Not that I disagree that Sabo is physically stronger than DD however is there any reason to consider Sabo to be in a completely different league? There's a problem with using Sabo >> Luffy when DD is "comparably" superior to the latter as well. Don't believe the gap in brute strength can overturn the difference in overall ability between DD and Sabo,




> As for your second paragraph, note that at the very beginning of my post I stated that this was conjecture. This is my prediction about how events will play out. I can confidently say that my scenario is likely, but it doesn't have to go down that way no. ABC logic doesn't work all the time but in this case I am also trying to reason my way with how it plays out seeing both Dofla/Sabo's abilities, and I fully acknowledge that parasite can change things completely.



Ah my mistake then. Fair enough.


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## maupp (Nov 4, 2014)

LOL @ DD beating Sabo(just beacuse he doesn't have the Mere Mera)   :rofl :rofl


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## Ruse (Nov 4, 2014)

Didn't realize Doffy possibly beating DFless Sabo was such a laughable notion.


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## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

And DD eats VA and their equivalents for breakfast. All he's done in Dress is put high-tiers in their place with a modicum of ease. What's Sabo done again ? Oh yeah, managing to stay alive against a gimped Admiral who didn't enough of a fuck about his existence to finish him off

Interesting about Burgess, I don't seem to recall Sabo beat him, looked perfectly fine to meh. Whereas DD made Jozu (_Whitebeard's _top commander sans Marco and maybe Vista) into a stool.


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## GIORNO (Nov 4, 2014)

DD doesn't do shit.

He slapped around an already very-injured Smoker.

He hasn't done shit to any other VA. 

Downplaying to prove your point? That's cute. Come back to me when you stop wanking and actually have an ounce of proof to prove DD > Sabo.


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## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

I was referring to Sanji, kind of what I meant by _their equivalent _. Smoker's fodder anyway.

Tell me;  How comfy do you think Jozu found Doffy's feathery ass?



> Downplaying to prove your point? That's cute. Come back to me when you stop wanking and actually have an ounce of proof to prove DD > Sabo.



ITT: "no u"


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## Orca (Nov 4, 2014)

Liquid said:


> And DD eats VA and their equivalents for breakfast. All he's done in Dress is put high-tiers in their place with a modicum of ease. What's Sabo done again ? Oh yeah, managing to stay alive against a gimped Admiral who didn't enough of a fuck about his existence to finish him off
> 
> Interesting about Burgess, I don't seem to recall Sabo beat him, looked perfectly fine to meh. Whereas DD made Jozu (_Whitebeard's _top commander sans Marco and maybe Vista) into a stool.



Why do you think Jozu is maybe stronger than Vista?


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## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Why do you think Jozu is maybe stronger than Vista?



Whole nother thread for this.

I rank marco Jozu and vista as WB's strongest commanders and comparable to each other. Marco is definitively the strongest whereas no canon evidence can be made either way for Jozu or Vista.


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## GIORNO (Nov 4, 2014)

Liquid said:


> I was referring to Sanji, kind of what I meant by _their equivalent _. Smoker's fodder anyway.
> 
> Tell me;  How comfy do you think Jozu found Doffy's feathery ass?
> 
> ...



:killyourself

I guess to like Byakuya you'd have to disregard everything that makes him shit.

I made a mental note to never take you seriously again.


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## Ruse (Nov 4, 2014)

Liquid has some good points to be fair 

Inb4 Er mah gawd ur just biased against Sabo doe


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## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

Jesus,  I could poke Cheeky's ass from here with a strawman that large.


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## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

Giorgio is rite tho

I am biased against Sabo

heck I don't like Shanks that much either 

Perhaps I'm just racist to  gingers. Interesting


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## Orca (Nov 4, 2014)

Liquid said:


> Whole nother thread for this.
> 
> I rank marco Jozu and vista as WB's strongest commanders and comparable to each other. Marco is definitively the strongest whereas no canon evidence can be made either way for Jozu or Vista.



Jozu is way more prominent than Vista. Oda highlighted WB's strongest commanders when Shanks came to meet WB. Then he again highlighted Marco and Jozu when they defended WB at the start of the war.

If we really get technical here, then there would be no canon evidence that Kizaru > Jozu either for example.(I'm assuming you agree that Kiz > Jozu).


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## GIORNO (Nov 4, 2014)

Controlling Jozu like his pet =/= as good as tangoing with an Admiral in an extended fight. 

Controlling Jozu is DD's best feat.

Thus going by feats, he's not stronger than Sabo.


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## trance (Nov 4, 2014)

Liquid said:


> Giorgio is rite tho
> 
> I am biased against Sabo
> 
> ...



Sabo isn't a ginger, tho.


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## GIORNO (Nov 4, 2014)

Trance, this is what happens when fanboys are wrong. They lose site of the truth.


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## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Jozu is way more prominent than Vista. Oda highlighted WB's strongest commanders when Shanks came to meet WB. Then he again highlighted Marco and Jozu when they defended WB at the start of the war.
> 
> If we really get technical here, then there would be no canon evidence that Kizaru > Jozu either for example.(I'm assuming you agree that Kiz > Jozu).



Prominence does not equate to power. Sakazuki was far more prominent that Kuzan and Borsalino but he damn sure wasn't far more powerful at the time. Jozu's best feat is stalling Aokiji while being decisively weaker, Vista's is against Mihawk. This is not turning into a Mihawk vs Admirals thread so I'm leaving it at both being comparable.

There is evidence that Kiz > Jozu because powerscaling from being equal to Aokiji.


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## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

Giorno said:


> Controlling Jozu like his pet =/= as good as tangoing with a gimped Admiral who didn't enough of a fuck about his existence to finish him off in an extended fight.



Indeed 



> Controlling Jozu is DD's best feat.



Nah, I consider breaking out of Kiji's Ice when the former failed to be his best feat 



> Thus going by feats, he's not stronger than Sabo.



Keep telling yourself that, it might just come true. Or not.


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## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

Trance said:


> Sabo isn't a ginger, tho.



oh shit he's blonde.

Then I guess its just bums and poor people.


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## Orca (Nov 4, 2014)

Liquid said:


> Prominence does not equate to power. Sakazuki was far more prominent that Kuzan and Borsalino but he damn sure wasn't far more powerful at the time. Jozu's best feat is stalling Aokiji while being decisively weaker, Vista's is against Mihawk. This is not turning into a Mihawk vs Admirals thread so I'm leaving it at both being comparable.
> 
> There is evidence that Kiz > Jozu because powerscaling from being equal to Aokiji.



How do we know  Aokiji > Jozu in a fight with no distractions? Also how do we know Aokiji = Kizaru?


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## GIORNO (Nov 4, 2014)

Liquid said:


> Indeed
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Had Aokiji attacked DD whilst in the ice like he did Jozu, sure. 

He wasn't even trying to kill DD though, he was just trying to get him to fuck off.

It's been true. Only an ignorant fool would suggest otherwise.


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## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

Luffee said:


> How do we know  Aokiji > Jozu in a fight with no distractions? Also how do we know Aokiji = Kizaru?



Are you being pedantic because this is just silly.

Jozu got a free shot in and gave Kuzan a bloody lip
The reverse had Jozu knocked flat on the ground and dead to rights

Kizaru and Aokiji are both Admirals and similar in strength by their title. Not to mention their feats are equal in scale.


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## GIORNO (Nov 4, 2014)

Jozu standing a chance against Aokiji in a fight where neither are distracted? 

Jozu would get fucking rekt. Aokiji was more distracted than Jozu was.


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## GIORNO (Nov 4, 2014)

You asked how we know if a top tier > a high tier in a fight with no distractions as if it was even possible in the first place.

I didn't jump the gun, you blatantly asked the question and I answered.

Jozu would pretty much get rekt.


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## Orca (Nov 4, 2014)

Giorno said:


> You asked how we know if a top tier > a high tier in a fight with no distractions as if it was even possible in the first place.
> 
> I didn't jump the gun, you blatantly asked the question and I answered.
> 
> Jozu would pretty much get rekt.



You're not the one who makes tiers. They're not universal. So stop using that as an argument. 

 I asked the question to make a point. Not because there is any doubt in my mind that Aokiji > Jozu.

It's a fact that he wouldn't get rekt. Like we literally saw it in the manga.


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## GIORNO (Nov 4, 2014)

Based on feats Jozu is not a top tier. You can think he is all you want but he does not scale to them.

What we literally saw was him make Aokiji bleed when the latter was distracted and we saw him get his arm taken away from him whilst he was distracted.

Little bit of blood vs. having your arm torn off, if that isn't getting rekt......


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## Dr. White (Nov 4, 2014)

Jozu is not on the admiral's level. But he is one of the strongest showings at Low Top Tier. Personally I think he has a slightly better showing than Marco. Jozu's only pitfall is he doesn't think with his head, and twice he has succumb to hax because he was distracted.


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## Dr. White (Nov 4, 2014)

Yep, sorry it's too complex for you.


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## GIORNO (Nov 4, 2014)

It's stupid, grow up. 

Only children still do that shit. 



Why is the f in Doflamingo capitalized?


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## Gohara (Nov 4, 2014)

Luffee makes some good points here.  If we're going to say that Jozu being more powerful than Vista technically has yet be proven, then we can also say that Kizaru being equal to Aokiji technically has yet to be proven.

I can see Jozu giving Aokiji high to extremely high difficulty in a full fair one on one fight.  There's nothing really suggesting that the former is significantly more powerful than the latter.  They fought on par with each other when we exclude surprise attacks, so it's possible that they're around the same


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## trance (Nov 5, 2014)

Sabo wins because he has better feats and better portrayal. Doffy isn't on his level til he gets more to show or imply otherwise.


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## convict (Nov 5, 2014)

> You're missing the point. Those 2 are the only individuals we can scale from because we have no idea how powerful the revolutionary army are in comparison to say the Yonkou albeit given their prerogative, *we can assume they should be in a similar tier of power.*
> 
> Put it this way:
> 
> ...



You also seem to agree with me that the revolutionaries as a whole - seeing their role in the story and the man who leads them - should be at least comparable to a Yonkou crew. So I don't really need to get into why I believe that. But then why are you comparing Sabo's strength with Ivankov and Kuma if that is the case? Ivankov and Kuma possess no where near the level of power that a top Yonkou commander (Beckman made an admiral pause, Marco/Jozu put up a fight) has and thus should not be anywhere close to the top commander of the revolutionaries. They would get annihilated by any Yonkou and by extension be nothing more than a blip in the marine's radar if Dragon only had near-Ivankov level crewmates under him.

And you are really using selecting reasoning here. You claim inferiors are perfectly fine to scale from but superiors are not. I can give you many examples in which first mates were far closer to their captains than an average commander. Marco - although far weaker - is still much closer to Whitebeard than he is to most other Whitebeard commanders. The guy can duke it out with Admirals. Pica and Vergo (the number 2s of the DD family) should be far closer to Doflamingo in strength compared to other commanders under them such as Baby 5 and Monet. For example. 3-4 Vergo level characters should be sufficient to deal with Doflamingo but I can't even see 10 Monets defeating Vergo. There are many examples. 

It isn't full-proof but there is a massive correlation between the strength of the captain and the strength of the first mate. Luffy/Zoro, Shanks/Beckman, Whitebeard/Marco, Croc/Mr 1 etc. Sabo is young so there is more likely a Whitebeard/Marco level difference in strength as opposed to a Luffy/Zoro level relationship but he is still good enough to be the second in command of a Yonkou levelish (even if a bit weaker) crew. Ivankov and Kuma are just commanders and seeing how vast a difference there often is between first mates and the rest of the crew, there is just as much reason to not derive Sabo's strength through them as there is to not derive his strength through Dragon.



> *True but I don't figure there are many characters left capable of destroying Luffy in melee in that fashion.* Not that I disagree that Sabo is physically stronger than DD however is there any reason to consider Sabo to be in a completely different league? There's a problem with using Sabo >> Luffy when DD is "comparably" superior to the latter as well. Don't believe the gap in brute strength can overturn the difference in overall ability between DD and Sabo,



I would argue that Sabo can do so and I have already laid my argument for why on the table so I doubt we will be able to agree on that. But in regards to physically being out of Doflamingo's league, I don't necessarily believe he is. Doflamingo should probably be able to keep up far better than Luffy would and he has other tools at his disposal to compensate. However, Sabo isn't just more physically capable. He has a very strong style of combat and physical techniques which really push him notably beyond Doflamingo in a physical battle. I feel his speed and superior Haki (again I addressed why I believe he has superior Haki and speed so we probably won't come to terms if you disagree) would prove a good counter to the sharp string techniques from Doflamingo. Law has already proven that a good weapon can counter Doflamingo's strings. He blocked Overheat with his sword pretty nicely. Sabo should be physically far stronger, faster, and he should have far better Haki than Law so Doflamingo really has his work cut out for him if he must overcome that. Still, Doflamingo surely has far more to show which is why he will be able to give base Sabo a great fight in my opinion but Sabo - with all his available tools - should pull it off.


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## Amol (Nov 5, 2014)

convict said:


> You also seem to agree with me that the revolutionaries as a whole - seeing their role in the story and the man who leads them - should be at least comparable to a Yonkou crew. So I don't really need to get into why I believe that. But then why are you comparing Sabo's strength with Ivankov and Kuma if that is the case? Ivankov and Kuma possess no where near the level of power that a top Yonkou commander (Beckman made an admiral pause, Marco/Jozu put up a fight) has and thus should not be anywhere close to the top commander of the revolutionaries. They would get annihilated by any Yonkou and by extension be nothing more than a blip in the marine's radar if Dragon only had near-Ivankov level crewmates under him.
> 
> And you are really using selecting reasoning here. You claim inferiors are perfectly fine to scale from but superiors are not. I can give you many examples in which first mates were far closer to their captains than an average commander. Marco - although far weaker - is still much closer to Whitebeard than he is to most other Whitebeard commanders. The guy can duke it out with Admirals. Pica and Vergo (the number 2s of the DD family) should be far closer to Doflamingo in strength compared to other commanders under them such as Baby 5 and Monet. For example. 3-4 Vergo level characters should be sufficient to deal with Doflamingo but I can't even see 10 Monets defeating Vergo. There are many examples.
> 
> ...



Great post . I agree with it.


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## zenieth (Nov 5, 2014)

Giorno said:


> DD doesn't do shit.
> 
> He slapped around an already very-injured Smoker.
> 
> ...



No offense, but DD's literal introduction to the Manga was him making two Vice Admirals almost kill each other for shits and giggles.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 5, 2014)

zenieth said:


> No offense, but DD's literal introduction to the Manga was him making two Vice Admirals almost kill each other for shits and giggles.



But parasite is a weird ass power. It held jozu too.


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## zenieth (Nov 5, 2014)

The question wasn't about how he did it.

DD has been shitting on VAs from the time he appeared, that's an undeniable fact. That's his power, that's how he does it and it don't change nothing.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 5, 2014)

zenieth said:


> The question wasn't about how he did it.
> 
> DD has been shitting on VAs from the time he appeared, that's an undeniable fact. That's his power, that's how he does it and it don't change nothing.



True. It's a very versatile and dangerous power. If Sabo doesn't have knowledge he could get beaten.


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## Coruscation (Nov 5, 2014)

I think it's rather uncritical to throw around statements about Doflamingo being capable of "destroying Luffy in melee". We've only seen that he's capable of overpowering a Luffy who isn't using the full extent of his physical combat abilities. If Doflamingo outspeeds a G2 Luffy, or overpowers G2 + Hardened attacks, then you can start considering the validity of such a description. But as of yet he's only moved quickly enough that a base Luffy could narrowly react to his dash, and overpowered a one-armed Hardening block with a heavy kick. That certainly doesn't indicate any sort of capability of being able to overpower let alone destroy a full Hardened & G2 Luffy. And I have to wonder how, if someone believes he is really capable of doing that, Doflamingo and Luffy are supposed to have any kind of fight at all in this arc that isn't a laughably one-sided stomp when you consider Doflamingo's string ability as well. I would wager it's a good idea to get used to the idea that a finally going all-out Luffy can put up more of a fight against the stringman than what's been shown so far.


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## Dr. White (Nov 5, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> I think it's rather uncritical to throw around statements about Doflamingo being capable of "destroying Luffy in melee". We've only seen that he's capable of overpowering a Luffy who isn't using the full extent of his physical combat abilities. If Doflamingo outspeeds a G2 Luffy, or overpowers G2 + Hardened attacks, then you can start considering the validity of such a description.


I don't think it's neccessarily uncritical. Luffy's main fighting style is melee, where as Dofla's seems to rely on hax (he has obviously shown us much more Cqc ability though). I think base Luffy should still be a force and capable of handling himself in CqC. So with that in mind when I see Dofla's clone rounding him and slashing him into Dofla's Fist, it's gonna make me question a bit what the skill levels are at play. What made it worse was Luffy's seemingly idle behavior in the Dofla fight. After rushing their secret move he literally just standed there, until Dofla rushed him, and had Fake Mingo kick him through the floor. 

I mean at this point I think base Luffy with COA/COO should be able of putting up a semblance of a fight against a high high tier like Dofla without resorting to G2/G3.



> But as of yet he's only moved quickly enough that a base Luffy could narrowly react to his dash, and overpowered a one-armed Hardening block with a heavy kick.


I don't think that's quite accurate. As of now Dofla has:
-Rushed him once like you stated.
-Out maneuvered him twice (the first time slashing him in the back, second time tying his hands) to make openings.
-Landed 2 Haki Hits straight to Luffy's face. 
All with about Low diff on Dofla's end. This is my problem with the situation. I mean I know Luffy is Goofy, but Zoro already warned him in PH that this was the NW and he needed to get serious. I'm positive Luffy will get his act together but disappointing by his performance so far. It's like we know he has the speed, power, and tools, he's just loafing around.



> That certainly doesn't indicate any sort of capability of being able to overpower let alone destroy a full Hardened & G2 Luffy.


doflamingo likewise has been playing it moderately conservative against the duo. There is no way we've seen completely serious Dofla yet, like I said earlier Luffy shouldn't really have to be pulling out his modo's to not be getting stomped by dofla in close combat.

I mean he lacks knowledge on the hax aspect, but this is his second time encountering it 



> And I have to wonder how, if someone believes he is really capable of doing that, Doflamingo and Luffy are supposed to have any kind of fight at all in this arc that isn't a laughably one-sided stomp when you consider Doflamingo's string ability as well.


Like I said above I think once Luffy feels some gravity of the situation he will kick it up a notch, also Law will. I'm talking straight form current performance.


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## Coruscation (Nov 5, 2014)

All of Luffy's goofy/seemingly sloppy behavior is annoying I agree but as we both agree that it is just that, sloppy and awkward writing, and he's going to kick it up and show himself as more able to combat Doffy eventually, I don't think there's any point in giving him too much shit for it when the discussion is about his objective full power with no types of restrictions or unintelligent behavior.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> I mean at this point I think base Luffy with COA/COO should be able of putting up a semblance of a fight against a high high tier like Dofla without resorting to G2/G3.



Regardless of whether he can or not I don't see how that changes my point. We know Luffy hasn't used Hardened G2 to trade blows with Dofla in close combat. That's an objective fact. So saying that Doflamingo can destroy Luffy in melee, without accounting for how Luffy hasn't used his full melee power when they've clashed with each other in melee, is clearly not being critical enough when analyzing the situation and drawing conclusions.



> I don't think that's quite accurate. As of now Dofla has:
> [...]
> -Out maneuvered him twice (the first time slashing him in the back, second time tying his hands) to make openings.



That was done with the Ito Ito no Mi both times. Once as a clone and once as a ranged binding technique. I was addressing the statement that he has destroyed Luffy in *melee* and all that's happened in that regard is him punching Luffy in the face (the opening for which was created by his Ito Ito Black Knight technique) and him rushing and kicking Luffy in the face (which I mentioned, and stated the objective facts that Luffy managed to narrowly react and that his base one-armed Hardening block was overpowered by Doflamingo's Hardened kick). So it's really the only the second time that matters in terms of melee combat prowess. It shows the superiority of Dof against base Luffy but it doesn't show anything regarding G2 Hardened Luffy. 

One could also mention blocking Jet Gatling with his Hardened coat. But that's not too spectacular of a feat considering that Hardening has been shown to be a stronger power-up than G2 even for Luffy so one would expect someone seemingly more versed in it like Dofla to be able to block a G2 move with it. Overpowering Luffy's block with a kick was, IMO, the more impressive feat between the two so it's sufficient to name that.



> doflamingo likewise has been playing it moderately conservative against the duo. There is no way we've seen completely serious Dofla yet



Sure but when Doflamingo gets 100% serious that's not going to involve him primarily kicking it up in melee combat or at least I don't think so. It's going to involve him using his Ito Ito no Mi attacks more extensively as well as presumably finally using Parasite on Luffy. But when Luffy kicks it up he's just going to get stronger in melee/physical combat. So the gap we've seen between them in that regard is almost guaranteed to close. Or else, as I said, there's no feasible way they could ever have any kind of half-decent fight, and I don't think that's a very good bet to be placing one's money on.


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## Dr. White (Nov 5, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> I don't think there's any point in giving him too much shit for it when the discussion is about his objective full power with no types of restrictions or unintelligent behavior.


It's not so much that I am giving him shit for melee, more so than just his base tendencies. In most IC fights I don't see Luffy going G2 or G3 off the bat unless there is a significant power gap or he hates said person (Akainu, Blackbeard); this arc has lent credence to that. This IMO gives opponents >= him a slight edge IMO. Kinda like how Yami Teach is, but less dicking around.





> Regardless of whether he can or not I don't see how that changes my point. We know Luffy hasn't used Hardened o trade blows with Dofla in close combat. That's an objective fact. So saying that Doflamingo can destroy Luffy in melee, without accounting for how Luffy hasn't used his full melee power when they've clashed with each other in melee, is clearly not being critical enough when analyzing the situation and drawing conclusions.


True.





> That was done with the Ito Ito no Mi both times. Once as a clone and once as a ranged binding technique. I was addressing the statement that he has destroyed Luffy in *melee* and all that's happened in that regard is him punching Luffy in the face (the opening for which was created by his Ito Ito Black Knight technique) and him rushing and kicking Luffy in the face (which I mentioned, and stated the objective facts that Luffy managed to narrowly react and that his base one-armed Hardening block was overpowered by Doflamingo's Hardened kick). So it's really the only the second time that matters in terms of melee combat prowess. It shows the superiority of Dof against base Luffy but it doesn't show anything regarding G2 Hardened Luffy.


Yeah from a pure melee standpoint Luffy has not nearly gone all out, but I was talking more about CqC skill which heavily is favoring Doffy at the moment. (for CIS reasons/the slight power and experience gap)







> Sure but when Doflamingo gets 100% serious that's not going to involve him primarily kicking it up in melee combat or at least I don't think so. It's going to involve him using his Ito Ito no Mi attacks more extensively as well as presumably finally using Parasite on Luffy. But when Luffy kicks it up he's just going to get stronger in melee/physical combat. So the gap we've seen between them in that regard is almost guaranteed to close. Or else, as I said, there's no feasible way they could ever have any kind of half-decent fight, and I don't think that's a very good bet to be placing one's money on.


I agree but as I stated for whatever reasons Oda is portraying this fight the way it is it's slightly downing my opinion of base Luffy which does have a slight affect in most IC matchups IMO. I do realize though that shit will get real when G2/G3 come out.


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## Coruscation (Nov 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> It's not so much that I am giving him shit for melee, more so than just his base tendencies. In most IC fights I don't see Luffy going G2 or G3 off the bat unless there is a significant power gap or he hates said person (Akainu, Blackbeard); this arc has lent credence to that.



He's always been a bit goofy even in serious situations (like getting stuck in the ground when he was pissed off at Arlong) but these last arcs are really taking it to a whole new level even after the moment on PH where Zoro lectured him on it. I like to hope that this is more a case of unusually sloppy writing from Oda though rather than an intrinsic quality of Luffy.



> I agree but as I stated for whatever reasons Oda is portraying this fight the way it is it's slightly downing my opinion of base Luffy which does have a slight affect in most IC matchups IMO.



I don't necessarily enjoy the way he treats (especially base) Luffy either but I'm still going to wait until he finally lets Luffy cut loose to 100% before making my judgment. I've seen situations similar to this too many times to want to jump on the train before the arc is over.

That said I don't think base Luffy has really been doing that poorly when you look at it concretely. He saved Kyros when Doflamingo was inches from his neck and dodged the follow-up attack all without G2. There's no shame in getting graced by the strings and punched when he's double-teamed by Dofla and the clone. Later it was shown that Doflamingo is faster than him and has more powerful Hardening, physical strength or a bit of both but that's nothing too shabby considering that Doffy is meant to be stronger overall and he's been shown to be clearly faster than Law (and Sanji) in CQC as well. He also managed to block the same strings which are sharp enough to passively slice up Fujitora's meteors with his Hardened sandals which is a pretty good showing.

The worst situation is getting his punch casually deflected by the clone in the sewer and I honestly don't know what the fuck Oda was thinking there. I'm inclined to say outlier given the remainder of his feats.


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