# Why  Tsunade beats Kakashi



## Shazam (Jun 22, 2019)

Kakashi's only chance at Victory Is by means of kamui


She can heal from any damage output from Kakashi
She will last longer in battle
Kakashi cannot kill off Katsuyu 
Acid spray will be something Kakashi will have to constantly avoid or he will die
Tsunade only has to land one attack to win
For those who disagree explain why

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## Shazam (Jun 22, 2019)

@Godaime Tsunade 
@SakuraLover16 
@Speedyamell 
@Matto


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## Santoryu (Jun 22, 2019)

Even the best Tsunade posters
@Suu and @Godaime Tsunade 

admitted that Kakashi is stronger than her and beats her.
Her beating a Kamui-restricted Kakashi is debatable, but not this version.

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## Architect (Jun 22, 2019)

1. She never tags him as Kakashi is notably faster, has precog and boosted perception
2. She gets her head crushed by Raikiri or Raikiri kunai or more so double Raikiri. Kakashi's feat against Jins shows his prowess to unpunishingly tag foes above Tsunade twice
3. She gets paralyzed by Lightning Wolf
4. She gets paralyzed by Lightning Clone
5. She gets dismemebered by Raikiri
6. She gets repelled by Water techniques and additionally paralyzed if Kakashi would act swiftly enough to follow up with infusing it with Raikiri
7. I don't think regular people have passive immunity to genjutsu, so she gets put under one, even if briefly.

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## Shazam (Jun 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Even the best Tsunade posters
> @Suu and @Godaime Tsunade
> 
> admitted that Kakashi is stronger than her and beats her.
> Her beating a Kamui-restricted Kakashi is debatable, but not this version.



Well at least one of if not the biggest Kakashi advocate thinks that kamui is _*possibly*_ his only option to Victory here

That's a good start


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2019)

Tsunade has knowledge on Kamui and can just summon Katsuya to block LOS before Kakashi can warp her; and Kakashi has no way to deal with Boss Sized Katsuya. So he’s hard countered by her


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## Shazam (Jun 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> 1. She never tags him as Kakashi is notably faster, has precog and boosted perception
> 2. She gets her head crushed by Raikiri or Raikiri kunai or more so double Raikiri. Kakashi's feat against Jins shows his prowess to unpunishingly tag foes above Tsunade twice
> 3. She gets paralyzed by Lightning Wolf
> 4. She gets paralyzed by Lightning Clone
> ...



Just to let you know my arguments will be made after I am home on the computer and after I see some others make their points first


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jun 22, 2019)

I think Kakashi is a pretty bad matchup for Tsunade. He doesn't rely on brute force that Tsunade can just laugh off or elemental blasts that Tsunade can just knock away to fight, but instead using raiton to cut, which while if Kakashi removed a limb wouldn't kill Tsunade, would give him an opening to kill her.

His bunshin feinting prowess plays in his favor here as well, and given he's aware of Tsunade's strength(through both reputation and seeing it first hand from Sakura), any attempts he makes at using raikiri to test the limits of her healing(I would say Kakashi has pretty good knowledge of Byakugo given he saw Sakura use it vs Madara, but that was post-Sharingan Kakashi who isn't the character being used here I assume seeing as kamui is mentioned in the first post) would almost certainly come in the form of using bunshins, eliminating the risk of being hit. 

Katsuyu is a nuisance for sure if Tsunade were to call on her, but Kakashi should have the means to avoid her acid through his speed and ability to travel underground, and if Tsunade were to try and play keep away by staying on Katsuyu and prevent Kakashi from entering CQC, using bunshins to set up a blindside kamui use on her is in the cards. Unfortunately for Tsunade she isn't a bunshin user nor does she possess any techniques to use that could fool Kakashi in to wasting chakra/kamui.


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## Omote (Jun 22, 2019)

Kakashi uses Hiding like a mole, uses his second best feinting skills in the series to feint her and takes her head off with a Raikiri

Then he smokes a blunt with Gai


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Even the best Tsunade posters
> @Suu and @Godaime Tsunade
> 
> admitted that Kakashi is stronger than her and beats her.
> Her beating a Kamui-restricted Kakashi is debatable, but not this version.




Not me, I still think tsuande wins. Kakashi puts up a great fight though


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Omote said:


> Kakashi uses Hiding like a mole,



Tsunade punches the ground


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 22, 2019)

A Raiton Bunshin feint ruins her day.

Kamui does that even more. 

He is just a Bad matchup for her.


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## Architect (Jun 22, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> elemental blasts that Tsunade can just knock away to fight


Do you think she can do so to any elemental blast? Even if its Zukokku or Zukokku+Atsugai?


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

The fallacy of tsuande being slow or just average in speed is one we need to address. I’d argue she’s faster then kakashi although sharingan precog May put him a bit above her in that department, but not by much.

We see in the WA two instances of tsunades speed, both of which I personally find to be a little stupid and feel they paint tsunade as faster then she really is, but I do think they still can be looked at to guage in some capacity how fast she is.


Both she and backpack raikage A jump at madara to land a susanoo got, and of course the raikage gets there first and hits first as he should, tsunade hits madara right afterwards. The time between each attack was so minimal that not even madara Uchiha has time to block or counter attack. The time between each hit could not have been anything over one second maximum considering it’s a window too small for even madara to make use of. 


We also have tsunade deflecting madara’s fire balls, and it should be noted that gaara is present during this time. Gaara’s sand was able to intercept the raikage, yet he was unable to even begin to block the attack. Now again, I find this a bit stupid imo and it shouldn’t have happened, but it did.

Basic common sense and hype let’s us say that these two instances are little bullshit, and she is not raikage V1 level in speed and I refuse to believe that. But what it does say is she is clearly not completely and utterly outclassed, and that she can indeed keep up with him. Not outpace, not equal him, but she can keep up. This makes Tsunade a pretty fast character, and her reaction times should be given more credit. I’d argue her reaction time might just be a little better then the raikage’s, it’s just that her speed doesn’t necessarily match it, although again she’s far from slow or average kage speed. I can’t see deidara, who had a hard time keep up with he I sasuke, do any of the things I mentioned with his own methods, and he is mid kage. I don’t see base jiriya, who is mid kage level, do any of the things I said. 


When Tsunade and Kakashi meet on the battlefield, her speed will not be an issue. Kakashi has two options, raikiri and Kamui, anything else is basically worthless. Raikiri itself would be hard to land effectively. Tsunade could purposefully let Kakashi hit her with a raikiri to the chef, grab his arm, break it, and slam him into the ground for the win, so he has to be careful. An attempt to sever her limbs would be difficult given her speed. Especially if she is the one on the offensive, as kakashi would need to dodge whatever is coming. The subsequent explosion that follows when she misses and hits the ground would make it very difficult to capitalize. 

Even if a limb is severed, Tsunade herself states she can regrow it, and I have no reason to think she’s lying. Even if she can’t which is an if, katsuyu could meld it back together very quickly while shielding her. Kakashi will be busily dodging for his life and trying to avoid explosions for an effective kamui, notice I said effective. While anprecose snipe to the head might be difficult, I believe he could get a body kamui to remove a part of her body. However hiding inside katsuyu with 100 healings amp would most likely allow her to heal through this, and for as much of a meme as Katsuyu is on this site, kakashi has no way to deal with our queen. She serves her role perfectly in this battle as being an immovable wall that allows Tsunade to recover in full of anything he does to her. 

In contrast, a simple grab or hit ends this fight for Kakashi. Kakashi has to work so much harder then Tsunade does in this fight. And he has very little room for error. Tsunade on the other hand will be mostly very comfortable during this entire battle. 

I do think that this  would be a good fight, but I personally feel that tsunade would win

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## ~Kakashi~ (Jun 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> Do you think she can do so to any elemental blast? Even if its Zukokku or Zukokku+Atsugai?



Hard to say. Her punching fireballs doesn't really make sense to begin with(why the flame doesn't just envelope her arm/how there's enough mass to be punched away), so it's hard to say what the limitations/restrictions are to her ability to punch things away. The databook notes the katon Madara used is a high class one, for whatever that's worth.

I would guess if she were to hit an elemental attack that greatly dwarfed her in size she might be able to punch a whole in the blast that saves her body from being hit(think Bee using samehada to cut a fireball in half/causing it to fly around him and Naruto instead of hit them).

That being said she can just byakugo through pretty most elemental blasts that hit her anyway so I don't guess it really matters.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Hard to say. Her punching fireballs doesn't really make sense to begin with(why the flame doesn't just envelope her arm/how there's enough mass to be punched away), so it's hard to say what the limitations/restrictions are to her ability to punch things away. The databook notes the katon Madara used is a high class one, for whatever that's worth.
> 
> I would guess if she were to hit an elemental attack that greatly dwarfed her in size she might be able to punch a whole in the blast that saves her body from being hit(think Bee using samehada to cut a fireball in half/causing it to fly around him and Naruto instead of hit them).
> 
> That being said she can just byakugo through pretty most elemental blasts that hit her anyway so I don't guess it really matters.



She might be able to deflect it back at kakashi which would be sick


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## Android (Jun 22, 2019)

Anything Kakashi has, Tsunade can heal from thanks to Byakugo.

One punch reduces Kakashi into a stain on the ground.

Kamui or bust as usual.

Outside of DMS, Kakashi is *never* beating any Sannin or Gokage member more times than not.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 22, 2019)

@Orochimaru op

Kakashi dodging Tsunade's hits would never be an issue.

She is not slow but she is far from being a speedster. 

Even of we did the best case scenario of her being near or equal to Kakashi(Which she isn't) the Sharingan's prediction would never allow her to land a hit unless she used some sort of distraction or trickery, but we all know who is way more likely to pull that off.


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## Architect (Jun 22, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> I would guess if she were to hit an elemental attack that greatly dwarfed her in size she might be able to punch a whole in the blast that saves her body from being hit(think Bee using samehada to cut a fireball in half/causing it to fly around him and Naruto instead of hit them).
> 
> That being said she can just byakugo through pretty most elemental blasts that hit her anyway so I don't guess it really matters.


well, I don't think she could punch or break through large and thick wall of fire like Zukokku or the combo
Tsunade's hands got burned from a very short time contact with 5 dragon missiles and she finished healing them few moments after she landed. If the wall envelopes her completely and for some time, I guess she would be severely damaged (if survives at all) even if she makes it to the other side of the wall.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> @Orochimaru op
> 
> Kakashi dodging Tsunade's hits would never be an issue.
> 
> ...



Slower characters can tag faster ones, and we have seen kakashi’s precog be beaten before (albeit it was kind of stupid who did it, and I hate that scene) so it’s not unbeatable. Tsunade herself with what I mentioned is at least equal to kakashi in speed if not faster, but as I said precog would even it out. Kakashi will get hit eventually, probably when tsunade allows him to raikiri her in the chest and she grabs his arm to hold him in place. That would be dangerous. And if Katsuyu comes out to heal tsuande, once that’s down she’ll be battle ready, making things even worse


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Shazam said:


> She can heal from any damage output from Kakashi


It's not like kakashi will just watch and admire her heal. 


Shazam said:


> She will last longer in battle


Irrelevant when Kakashi's attacks can kill her quickly. This is only valid if it becomes a battle of attrition  which it won't. 


Shazam said:


> Kakashi cannot kill off Katsuyu


Why should he??? She is too slow to even tag him and as long aa she is the, Tsunade won't be doing any offense because her purpose is that of a meat shield.


Shazam said:


> Acid spray will be something Kakashi will have to constantly avoid or he will die


Acid spray is something that will not tag Kakashi. It couldn't tag a huge ass kaiju snake. 


Shazam said:


> Tsunade only has to land one attack to win


No. .. She has to land more Than one. Stop with this one punch man shit. She has never killed anyone with just one punch. Her pinch is never shown to be that strong thst it can straight up kill people. And her punch should land on the actual Kakashi and not a clone, or else she's screwed.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> . Kakashi will get hit eventually, probably when tsunade allows him to raikiri her in the chest and she grabs his arm to hold him in place. That would be dangerous. And if Katsuyu comes out to heal tsuande, once that’s down she’ll be battle ready, making things even worse


The moment she grabs him in place.... Her head goes to box land. Simple. That's a death wish for Tsunade to stay in place vs a guy who can snipe your head off while moving.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> She has never killed anyone with just one punch.



Kakashi never killed anyone with kamui

Gai never killed anyone with the seventh gate.


Naruto never killed anyone with TBB. 

What kind of logic is this?


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> The moment she grabs him in place.... Her head goes to box land. Simple. That's a death wish for Tsunade to stay in place vs a guy who can snipe your head off while moving.




Not if she tightened her grip on his arm hard enough to sever it, or simply pull and whatch his arm come off. The pain would be to great, and he’d be too surprised that raikiri failed despite it being one of the best killing jutsu’s. 

The moment he lands a raikiri he’s going to assume it does massive damage, and he’s not going to expect her to instantly rip off his arm. Or she can play dead liek she did agaisnt madara and then end him.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Slower characters can tag faster ones, and we have seen kakashi’s precog be beaten before (albeit it was kind of stupid who did it, and I hate that scene) so it’s not unbeatable. Tsunade herself with what I mentioned is at least equal to kakashi in speed if not faster, but as I said precog would even it out. Kakashi will get hit eventually, probably when tsunade allows him to raikiri her in the chest and she grabs his arm to hold him in place. That would be dangerous. And if Katsuyu comes out to heal tsuande, once that’s down she’ll be battle ready, making things even worse



No what you mentioned doesn't make them equal because it wasn't a competition to see who attacked the enemy first and she was never praised for her speed in those instances. 

All Kakashi needs to do during the first encounter is sever her leg, arm or neck during the first encounter and if she is not outright killed, she is in a serious disadvantage and all goes downhill from there. 

Worst part is that a Raiton clone can do all of that as well and simply paralyze her in the unlikely event she managed to hit him.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Kakashi never killed anyone with kamui


Kamui has shown potency to kill people if their head is take off. 


Orochimaru op said:


> Gai never killed anyone with the seventh gate


Gai never tried to kill anyone with 7g. And also attack potency is sufficient to guess outcomes. 


Orochimaru op said:


> Naruto never killed anyone with TBB.


Let's not.... Let's just not. 


Orochimaru op said:


> What kind of logic is this?


It's called good logic. 
All those attacks you mentioned have the potency to kill someone because they are shown to be that deadly, or have the hype to back them up. Kakashi using kamui on diederas hand took it off, imagining it's effect on a head is easy. Gai's Hirudora when not used with KI Ko'd a bijuu chakra juiced Kisame in an ocean. ( and no one says Hirudora kills anyone in one hit, so yeah.  Jokes on you ) .
Let's not even talk about the damage output of a Bijudama....
The difference here is Tsunade's oh so legendary punches do not have these kind of showings to back it up. Kakashi has instances where he took people's limbs off, Gai has instances where he completely ko's people with his attacks but Tsunade has neither. Show me one instance of Tsunade's punch potency that can be used as a measure to see what it can do in other situations like kamui or Hirudora or TBB.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> No what you mentioned doesn't make them equal because it wasn't a competition to see who attacked the enemy first and she was never praised for her speed in those instances.
> 
> All Kakashi needs to do during the first encounter is sever her leg, arm or neck during the first encounter and if she is not outright killed, she is in a serious disadvantage and all goes downhill from there.
> 
> Worst part is that a Raiton clone can do all of that as well and simply paralyze her in the unlikely event she managed to hit him.




Kakashi wouldn’t instantly know to sever a leg or her neck. Although I’d it was so easy to sever her neck you think madara would have done it. Anyways I already covered the limb thing, tsuand eherslef says she can regen that, and worse case scenario this prompts katsuyu which is bad news for kakashi. 

Feats > praise although take the feats I said with a grain of salt. I still think tsunade is faster physically, kakashi just has sharingan precog. Which would actually suck for him if she took his back, although that’s u likely anyways so I wouldn’t really use it agaisnt him. 


As I said he would probably chidori her chest as normal, as her always does, and she grabs his arm and goes to town. Or they tussle, kakashi throws some jutsu at her, she ranks or deflects, she has a hard time hitting him, explosions are everywhere, kamui takes off part of her body, katsuyu heals, she comes back but with katsuyu’s help and they coroner kakashi into being tagged and that’s it.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Not if she tightened her grip on his arm hard enough to sever it, or simply pull and whatch his arm come off.


Kamui is quicker. Kakashi is quicker with the draw.... 
And also like I said, Tsunade has never shown that sort of strength to rip arms off of people.  


Orochimaru op said:


> The moment he lands a raikiri he’s going to assume it does massive damage, and he’s not going to expect her to instantly rip off his arm. Or she can play dead liek she did agaisnt madara and then end him.


He's not going to fight the way you want him to. Kakashi is a fucking genius.. He immediately knew how fucked he knew as the moment he entered fight with Itachi and you are telling me he will wifhfully think a Raikiri will put Tsunade down and hence he'd lower his guard? ??
This is the same argument you brought to the Gai v Tsunade thread saying " Gai will assume she is dead and allow her to heal" ... No they won't. 
No one is assuming shit here. Especially not Kakashi. Especially not so thst it fits your narrative here. Let's not make him dumb for the threads sake. He is smarter than her by a country mile and won't Lax just because he gets one Raikiri in.
She ain't playing dead against kakashi dude.. Wtf..  You think he's as arrogant as Madara ??
This also was already dealt in the other thread. She only healed because Madara was absent and wanted them to die in the most disrespectful manner. It's not the same with Kakashi. He'll kill her if she's down and he'll kill her proper.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Kamui has shown potency to kill people if their head is take off.



Same with tsuande 



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Gai never tried to kill anyone with 7g. And also attack potency is sufficient to guess outcomes.



It’s easy to guess outcomes with tsunades punches



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> All those attacks you mentioned have the potency to kill someone because they are shown to be that deadly,




Same with tsunades punches 



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Show me one instance of Tsunade's punch potency that can be used as a measure to see what it can do in other situations like kamui or Hirudora or TBB.





It controls human senses and manipulates them

Kakashi durability > madara susanoo confirmed? 


Hell I’ll wank Orochimaru to next Tuesday and I still wouldn’t say tsunade isn’t one hit killing  him.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Kamui is quicker. Kakashi is quicker with the draw....
> And also like I said, Tsunade has never shown that sort of strength to rip arms off of people.
> 
> He's not going to fight the way you want him to. Kakashi is a fucking genius.. He immediately knew how fucked he knew as the moment he entered fight with Itachi and you are telling me he will wifhfully think a Raikiri will put Tsunade down and hence he'd lower his guard? ??
> ...




It isn’t arrogance or dumb to assume putting a fucking chord oro in someone’s heart should kill them. Without knowledge why would he have any reason to believe she can rank that? Chidori is a monster of a jutsu, he has no reason to believe it won’t work.


And he will be caught off guard, madara had better sharingan precog and still was surprised.

Also how is madara impaling tsunade with a giant ass susanoo sword and presuming she’s dead him being cocky?


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

It controls human senses and manipulates them

It controls human senses and manipulates them

Tsuande has enough power to pull up this building level sword in base but she can’t pull off kakashi’s arm? What?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Same with tsuande


Prove it. .. Instead of saying same. 


Orochimaru op said:


> It’s easy to guess outcomes with tsunades punches


Show me the baseline panel so thst we can easily guess. Just saying she's strong so it's easy to guess isn't going to cut it. 


Orochimaru op said:


> Same with tsunades punches


It's not. You have nothing to show. I have panels of Kakashi taking limbs off and Gai tea bagging opponents hard they don't even move. It's your turn to show one Tsunade punch strength panel on a ninja that can be scaled to a fatality. 


Orochimaru op said:


> Kakashi durability > madara susanoo confirmed?


Lel.. I was expecting this...  
So you are saying orochimaru durability >>> Madara susanoo??? I didn't see him die when Tsunade punched him???  So is he more durable than a susanoo ??  In the next part you see Madara himself not exploding like it is supposed to be withbehr punches and he's an Edo..... So that means Edo Madara durability >>>> Susano???? 
Kakashi has tangible feats vs alive Ninja... And actual Ninja..  The scaling is easier. Unlike Tsunade where she hits Madara's susanoo and cracks it but can't crack orochimaru or completely turn Madara's weak edo body into edo paste.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> It isn’t arrogance or dumb to assume putting a fucking chord oro in someone’s heart should kill them. Without knowledge why would he have any reason to believe she can rank that? Chidori is a monster of a jutsu, he has no reason to believe it won’t work.


Kakashi  Is not what you want him to be for the sake of your argument here. He was an anbu.
He's thorough with his job. 
And are you saying Kakashi does not have knowledge on Tsunade's healing????
Are we going that far now for arguments sake?? 


Orochimaru op said:


> And he will be caught off guard, madara had better sharingan precog and still was surprised.


Madara had the luxury of being an Edo and  immortal, the arrogance of being light-years ahead in combat prowess and strength. Kakashi has neither. You know it's not because his precog failed, it's because he thought too low of them to even put a decent fight, something Kakashi will never do. 
So your argument is invalid.


Orochimaru op said:


> Also how is madara impaling tsunade with a giant ass susanoo sword and presuming she’s dead him being cocky?


Because he has no knowledge of her healing abilities.. Otherwise he'd have pounder her ass the moment she fell down instead of posing. He is too far above her to even give a shit if she's properly dead or not. 
Something Kakashi will never do against an opponent like Tsunade.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Tsuande has enough power to pull up this building level sword in base but she can’t pull off kakashi’s arm? What?


Gai has enough strength and speed to punch a man to death in g6 and break huge ass boulders in base, and yet you felt he can't even knock Tsunade out....

Why are there 2 different rules based on characters now ? ? Explain that first.



EDIT. : Also building level swords don't fight back. Building level swords don't try to snipe your head off.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> So you are saying orochimaru durability >>> Madara susanoo??? I didn't see him die when Tsunade punched him??? So is he more durable than a susanoo ??




Tsuande was fatigued by going on a rampage which is shown on pannel, had a lot of parts of her body be weakened by kabuto’s jutus which 100 healings wouldn’t counteract because it’s regeneration, didn’t use the 100 healing creation rebirth to amp her power, and it’s psrt one where she’s weaker.



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> In the next part you see Madara himself not exploding like it is supposed to be withbehr punches and he's an Edo.




Lol




Had madara not been an Edo this would have killed him, but sure kakashi is stronger then madara in durability.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Gai has enough strength and speed to punch a man to death in g6 and break huge ass boulders in base, and yet you felt he can't even knock Tsunade out....
> 
> Why are there 2 different rules based on characters now ? ? Explain that first.
> 
> ...



Because tsunade is durable? And she has regeneration when rocks don’t?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Because tsunade is durable? And she has regeneration when rocks don’t?


Blunt force is blunt force.... Based on your logic it's blasphemous to think someone is more durable than a huge inanimate object that doesn't fight back.... 
And also.... Regen is not auto.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Madara had the luxury of being an Edo and immortal, the arrogance of being light-years ahead in combat prowess and strength. Kakashi has neither. You know it's not because his precog failed, it's because he thought too low of them to even put a decent fight, something Kakashi will never do.
> So your argument is invalid.





We can clearly see madara be surprised by the exclamation marks here It controls human senses and manipulates them

Sharingan precog should have made him not surprised, but he was




Madara also clearly wanted to kill tsunade as shown when he counteracts, after he’s done being surprised of course




Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Because he has no knowledge of her healing abilities.. Otherwise he'd have pounder her ass the moment she fell down instead of posing. He is too far above her to even give a shit if she's properly dead or not.
> Something Kakashi will never do against an opponent like Tsunade.



Kakashi also doesn’t  know about 100 healings. He has no reason to believe she doesn’t die or at least get seriously injured by a chidori to the chest.


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## dergeist (Jun 22, 2019)

106cm always trump.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 22, 2019)

Shazam said:


> She can heal from any damage output from Kakashi
> 
> She will last longer in battle
> 
> ...



Basicaly this but also ı can add these;

- Kakashi cant fool her easily cuz she is a bit genius on her own part and very experienced.
- Clone Feints could be countered by her since she is able to hear someone's heartbeat from meters away
- Kakashi of course a ninjutsu master dude but even his ninjutsu prowess heavily rely on cqc but Tsunade aint an opponent that you can surprass in cqc easily.
- Kakashi aint has any cqc kamui feat specialy when w/o any support that can distract the opponent for him.
- Kakashi showed his respect and inferiority honestly against both Orochimaru and Jiraiya in both Part 1 and Shippuden Era. Tsunade is on par with'em
- Tsunade mocked with Kakashi cuz he caught under tsukuyomi
- Base Kabuto portrayed as 3T Sharingan Kakashi's respective equal (not %100 equal of course but so close) and Kabuto's himself fooled Kakashi during Konoha Crush event. 

Rusty, retired Tsunade dealed with Kabuto while he took 2 military pills that boost his physicality and healing. So that Kabuto was probably pretty much stronger than 3T Sharingan Kakashi cuz even at his Base he mentioned with Kakashi in the same tier. Now he boosted himself. And he is a medic too. So he is more suited for taking on Tsunade.

But Tsunade literaly humilated him and Kabuto needed to use Tsunade's hemophobia against her for save his life. So Tsunade at his worst state of health already beated a Kakashi.


Tsunade > Kakashi. 
Sannin > Kakashi

Manga agrees with it, DB agrees with it, statements, portrayals, reputations, feats all of it lean onto this idea too.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 22, 2019)

I honestly hate these threads with a passion now but since I was summoned I'll give my opinion and slink back into a dark corner somewhere.

I see Tsunade winning more times than not but Kamui is the reason she may lose sometimes. Kakashi is mainly a ninjutsu oriented ninja with good taijutsu, fients, and precog but I feel like this is not enough.
The Majority of his ninjutsu arsenal is useless from it either being dodged or batted away. Meaning that it would just be a waste of resources for Kakashi which he can't afford to lose.
Taijutsu would be incredibly dangerous for Kakashi seeing as just one hit can kill him while his hits may be just enough to maybe bruise her. A well timed rajinsho could spell bad news for Kakashi as well.

I have seen that it has been said edo tensei don't have the same durability as normal ninja but if it can bring the Raikage back with his hard body I don't see why others won't be brought back close to their original durability as well.

Feinting is a big thing that I see often and while its effective there is a very small chance of it working on Tsunade because she was able to keep up with five attacking Susanoo who all had precog. Another thing I see often is him shocking her with his lightning clones but considering her durability and resiliency the effects would most likely not last long enough especially with her seal opened. In fact I can see her using this to her advantage considering she has caught enemies off guard pretending to be seriously injured.




Precog is another thing that people use but Tsunade's reaction speed is high as well. For example she was able to hit Madara after being transported at light speed by Mabui's jutsu

Another thing is the five Susanoo clones that her and the other five Kage fought for a long time as well. So if they were unable to kill her then the likelihood of Kakashi doing so is low. I was going to post more but I don't really want to stay in this thread much longer.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> And also.... Regen is not auto.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Tsuande was fatigued by going on a rampage which is shown on pannel, had a lot of parts of her body be weakened by kabuto’s jutus which 100 healings wouldn’t counteract because it’s regeneration, didn’t use the 100 healing creation rebirth to amp her power, and it’s psrt one where she’s weaker.


Well, she almost immediately turns people to paste in base. .  So now it's with seal amp??? More easier for Kakashi now. 
And How do we know she's weaker in part 1? ?? Any on panel proofs??? 


Orochimaru op said:


> Had madara not been an Edo this would have killed him, but sure kakashi is stronger then madara in durability.


Really man? ??  All that I put out and this is what you extract ?? 
Of course he is.... Madara is a freaking edo.  Obviously he is more weaker. He doesn't have bones or muscles and shit.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

You know what I mean. .. I ain't biting your bait.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Blunt force is blunt force.... Based on your logic it's blasphemous to think someone is more durable than a huge inanimate object



Me saying kakashi can’t tank an attack that took out madara’s susanoo is not the same thing as me saying tsunade can tank hits that take out boulders, do you not see that a line has been crossed here?

We have gone from tsunade tanking a boulder crushing attack to kakashi tanking a susanoo crushing attack. 

There’s a clear line here


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> You know what I mean. .. I ain't biting your bait.




No actually don’t. Don’t mean this in a mean way to you but I actually don’t know what you meant by that. You said regen wasn’t auto and I got hella confused


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> No actually don’t. Don’t mean this in a mean way to you but I actually don’t know what you meant by that. You said regen wasn’t auto and I got hella confused


It has to be activated.. It's not healing her if she gets knocked out. She has to be conscious for it to work and it is not stopping her from losing consciousness . 
This was the whole crux of your argument in Gai v Tsunade thread.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> In the next part you see Madara himself not exploding like it is supposed to be withbehr punches and he's an Edo..... So that means Edo Madara durability >>>> Susano????







Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Of course he is.... Madara is a freaking edo. Obviously he is more weaker. He doesn't have bones or muscles and shit.



Lol first you say madara doesn’t explode from a punch now you “of course he does lol” 


What the hell is this backtracking?


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> It has to be activated.. It's not healing her if she gets knocked out. She has to be conscious for it to work and it is not stopping her from losing consciousness .
> This was the whole crux of your argument in Gai v Tsunade thread.




What if she activated it before she gets knocked out? And any trauma she endures gets auto healed. And why is thsi turning into gai vs tsunade? 

Can we go back to kakashi somehow tanking a susanoo destroying attack?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Lol first you say madara doesn’t explode from a punch now you “of course he does lol”


When I say of course I mean Kakashi being more durable than an Edo body.
Kakashi isn't exploding like that.
There is no back tracking.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> He doesn't have bones or muscles and shit.



So your saying he is less durable because no muscles and stuff. So how does he walk? 

Ninja magic, same ninja magic that means he still retains durability.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> When I say of course I mean Kakashi being more durable than an Edo body.
> Kakashi isn't exploding like that.
> There is no back tracking.



So do you concede  that Madara did indeed blow up? Because you said he didn’t. And you sued that as a way to say her punches can’t kill. 

The feat of tsunade breaking madara susanoo still stands and I am rather to hear how kakashi durability > madara susanoo


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> What if she activated it before she gets knocked out? And any trauma she endures gets auto healed. And why is thsi turning into gai vs tsunade?


Even if she does, it isn't stopping her from going unconscious due to BFT. 
It's turning into a Gai v Tsunade thread because you bring the same argument. You started it tbh with that arm ripping statement.


Orochimaru op said:


> Can we go back to kakashi somehow tanking a susanoo destroying attack?


Can we go back to how  edo Madara himself didn't get completely destroyed by a susanoo busting attack. Or how she is even landing a hit like that with Kamui being quicker?


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Tsunade has never shown that sort of strength to rip arms off of people.





Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Also building level swords don't fight back. Building level swords don't try to snipe your head off.



First it was she can’t tear off his limbs, now it’s she doesn’t have the time to. 

Will you at least concede that she has the strength to rip off his arms which you said she doesn’t. Because you haven’t debunked my idea that she has the strength to rip off someone’s arms.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Can we go back to how edo Madara himself didn't get completely destroyed by a susanoo busting attack.



It exploded half his body. I don’t see how kakashi tanks this


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Or how she is even landing a hit like that with Kamui being quicker?



Gets surprised like madara did with a better sharingan


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## Zero890 (Jun 22, 2019)

Kakashi has only served to praise the name of the Sannin.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> You started it tbh with that arm ripping statement.



Where in the arm ripping segment did I mention ago. 

You mentioned gai, you even mentioned the thread. That’s on you


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> So your saying he is less durable because no muscles and stuff. So how does he walk?
> 
> Ninja magic, same ninja magic that means he still retains durability.


It's not. It's easier to dieperse whatever makes an Edo. 
Itachi got cleaved by Kabuto's sword as an Edo while I doubt it'd do the same to an alive man.


Orochimaru op said:


> So do you concede that Madara did indeed blow up? Because you said he didn’t. And you sued that as a way to say her punches can’t kill.


When did I ever say he did not. . All I said he should have been obliterated completely based on her one punch red mist hype. That Def didn't happen. 


Orochimaru op said:


> The feat of tsunade breaking madara susanoo still stands and I am rather to hear how kakashi durability > madara susanoo


I already gave it. She failed to destroy edo Madara in one hit. The same hit isn't insta killing Kakashi. Which means she needs more than one hit. 
And I believe she had A4's help with that susanoo breaking.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Where in the arm ripping segment did I mention ago.
> 
> You mentioned gai, you even mentioned the thread. That’s on you


No.. You said she can rip arms because she can lift things... That's why I had to bring the same argument you used In the Gai v Tsunade thread, but in an opposing way.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Gets surprised like madara did with a better sharingan


Like I already clarified.... Sharingan precog has nothing to do with this when it has reacted to better people.. 
He was arrogant which Kakashi won't be.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> It exploded half his body. I don’t see how kakashi tanks this


It exploded half of an *Edo* body. .. He takes a bad hit yes...a really bad one but not enough to outright kill him. She needs a follow up. 
Enough time for a kamui.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> It exploded half of an *Edo* body. .. He takes a bad hit yes...a really bad one but not enough to outright kill him. She needs a follow up.
> Enough time for a kamui.



We are now in the age where kakashi’s durabiltiy surpasses that of a madara susanoo. 

Also why exactly is it being an Edo body less impressive?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> First it was she can’t tear off his limbs, now it’s she doesn’t have the time to.


She still can't.. . And on top of that she won't have time..


Orochimaru op said:


> Will you at least concede that she has the strength to rip off his arms which you said she doesn’t. Because you haven’t debunked my idea that she has the strength to rip off someone’s arms.


Why should i when that sort of shit never happened  ??
Your argument is hinging either on Kakashi being a dumbass and getting beaten without retaliation, or equating feats like lifting stuff and ripping arms, wehn you yourself state the otherway on different threads.... 


Let me ask you something.... Do you thiink Kakashi is physically stronger than Genin Lee ???


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Like I already clarified.... Sharingan precog has nothing to do with this when it has reacted to better people..
> He was arrogant which Kakashi won't be.



He was surprised and stunned with sharingan precog, the scans I posted shows him among a surprised face with question marks and exclamation marks, and he stands there bewildered for a little bit until he comes to his senses and attacks her. If madara got surprised Kakashi will.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> We are now in the age where kakashi’s durabiltiy surpasses that of a madara susanoo.


No we are not...  We are in the age of wishfully taking stuff out of context and understanding only what we want. 


Orochimaru op said:


> Also why exactly is it being an Edo body less impressive?


Who said they are not impressive????
That shit never worked on an alive man that's all.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> She still can't.




She can pull up building level swords but not kakashi’s arm off??

It’s confirmed, kakashi’s arm is harder to pull then gamabunta sword, this guy weighs gigatonnes. 



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Why should i when that sort of shit never happened ??



Same with kamui, yet I still see it as valid. 



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Your argument is hinging either on Kakashi being a dumbass and getting beaten without retaliation,



Why would kakashi be a dumbass for assuming a chidori through the chest would kill her. That’s a very rational thing to assume, stab through chest, someone dies, why oils kakashi not believe that? 

And where did I say he gets beaten without retaliation. I think my first or second post on this thread says it would be a good battle.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> He was surprised and stunned with sharingan precog, the scans I posted shows him among a surprised face with question marks and exclamation marks, and he stands there bewildered for a little bit until he comes to his senses and attacks her. If madara got surprised Kakashi will.


Again with this. .. Madara got surprised because he doesn't know her. He thought she was dead. If he had Intel like kakashi  he'd never be surprised by her even in his sleep.
Kakashi has knowledge, he ain't thinking one or two attacks will put her down, unlike Madara.

Juubi Madara had the same expression vs Hirudora,..... Oh the horrors that would follow if I say he was stunned, or bewildered.. ....


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> That shit never worked on an alive man that's all.



Kamui says hi



Kirin says hi




Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> No we are not... We are in the age of wishfully taking stuff out of context and understanding only what we want.




What am I taking out of context. 

Tsunade breaks madara susanoo. I am under the impression madara susanoo > kakashi in durability

So Inassume a lunch to kakashi would break him like it did the susanoo


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> If he had Intel like kakashi he'd never be surprised by her even in his sleep.
> Kakashi has knowledge, he ain't thinking one or two attacks will put her down, unlike Madara.



Kakashi has knowledge? I don’t know if this post specifies that. 




Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Juubi Madara had the same expression vs Hirudora,..... Oh the horrors that would follow if I say he was stunned, or bewildered.. ....



Because he was surprised? Also you keep bringing up gai and then say it’s me. Interesting.


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## Muah (Jun 22, 2019)

All the Sannin are better than kakashi. they're different levels of ninja. Kakashi would be the first to admit that.  even if he managed to beat a sannin. he'll never ghave that level if chakara, those levels of jutsus, thst experience or that aura.

I mean Jiriya was a literal person of legend and prophecy who trained the thrre strongest ninja of his time .  and Tsunade fought Madara and was the heart of the battle being litterally cut in half and survived only to ressurect the other 5 kage and save them from death. 

kakashi would never compare himself to the sannin so why do we waste our time. Even on a personal level he's afraid if the sannin. because they were monsters while he was growing up. Orochimaru was nerfed but  Jiriya and tsunade lived up to their legends.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Muah said:


> All the Sannin are better than kakashi. they're different levels of ninja. Kakashi would be the first to admit that.  even if he managed to beat a sannin. he'll never ghave that level if chakara, those levels of jutsus, thst experience or that aura.
> 
> I mean Jiriya was a literal person of legend and prophecy who trained the thrre strongest ninja of his time .  and Tsunade fought Madara and was the heart of the battle being litterally cut in half and survived only to ressurect the other 5 kage and save them from death.
> 
> kakashi would never compare himself to the sannin so why do we waste our time. Even on a personal level he's afraid if the sannin. because they were monsters while he was growing up. Orochimaru was nerfed but  Jiriya and tsunade lived up to their legends.




Even nerfed Orochimaru lived up to his name against kn4


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> She can pull up building level swords but not kakashi’s arm off??
> 
> It’s confirmed, kakashi’s arm is harder to pull then gamabunta sword, this guy weighs gigatonnes.


You don't know how this works do you... 
The sword offers zero resistance back. . 
Kakashi does. The sword is not exerting back any force, Kakashi will.
It's not about weight.. It never was...


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> You don't know how this works do you...
> The sword offers zero resistance back. .
> Kakashi does. The sword is not exerting back any force, Kakashi will.
> It's not about weight.. It never was...



I don’t think kakashi can resist tsunade tipping his arm off with her strength. If you want to say he intercepts it before she does it that’s different, but she has the potential and the strength to rip his arm off should he be unable to intercept it with an attack.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Even nerfed Orochimaru lived up to his name against kn4


Because he's stronger than the other 2.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Because he's stronger than the other 2.



True


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jun 22, 2019)

Kakashi has the authority of the gods on his side 

Real talk though, it's a toss up. Depends on who lands a hit first. Kakashi is well aware of Tsunade's nigh unkillable-ness, he's seen Sakura in action as a reference point. He'd know that using conventional methods are just a waste of time, and would probably opt for more lethal means from the jump. If he's able to catch her in Kamui or bisect her/sever her head from her body, it won't matter if she doesn't die because she'll be in the same situation Hidan is currently in.

On the flip side, Tsunade has fought/confronted her fair share of doujutsu users, all of them significantly above Kakashi. She doesn't need to worry about kunai and even raikiri much, impalement doesn't matter to her. Should she force a CQC exchange, she can one-shot him, and Katsuyu is a massive boon in her favor if she summons her. The one thing she needs to be wary of outside of Kamui, is any elaborate traps Kakashi sets. Should she get caught and beheaded/bisected, her healing becomes moot.

50/50.


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## Sufex (Jun 22, 2019)

Very close, It can go either way.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Kamui says hi


Diedera says hi.


Orochimaru op said:


> Kakashi has knowledge? I don’t know if this post specifies that.


Basic knowledge of Tsunade.   He has that by default . Unless specified it's generally manga knowledge.


Orochimaru op said:


> Because he was surprised? Also you keep bringing up gai and then say it’s me. Interesting.


I am bringing up how people change arguments based on the character receiving it. .. And you know what I mean. 



Orochimaru op said:


> I don’t think kakashi can resist tsunade tipping his arm off with her strength. If you want to say he intercepts it before she does it that’s different, but she has the potential and the strength to rip his arm off should he be unable to intercept it with an attack


I believe he can. . Long enough..
Its not easy ripping a dudes arm off if he is resisting. Atleast not as easy as lifting an inanimate object.


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## Speedyamell (Jun 22, 2019)

Kakashi does not beat tsunade. It's just the whipped kakashi fans being delusional as usual. Kamui is all kakashi has to his life that let's him perform at the level tsunade is and it becomes ineffective once katsuyu comes out because
1. Katsuyu's sheer size blocks Los and prevents any sort of clear shot.
2. The slug can literally divide it's whole body or part of it to hundreds of smaller slugs that would be once more be hindering Los, while also shifting kakashi's focus, and distracting him. Where tsunade can use the distraction to pink mist the idiot.
3. The slug also has acid rain that kakashi has to constantly worry about. Another thing that will leave him exposed to getting pink misted, if the acid itself doesn't wound him after multiple attempts from katsuyu.


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jun 22, 2019)

The God of wank, the almighty wanker has posted again...


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Kakashi does not beat tsunade. It's just the whipped kakashi fans being delusional as usual. Kamui is all kakashi has to his life that let's him perform at the level tsunade is and it becomes  once katsuyu comes out because
> 1. Katsuyu's sheer size blocks Los and prevents any sort of clear shot.
> 2. The slug can literally divide it's whole body or part of it to hundreds of smaller slugs that would be once more be hindering Los, while also shifting kakashi's focus, and distracting him. Where tsunade can use the distraction to pink mist the idiot.
> 3. The slug also has acid rain that kakashi has to constantly worry about. Another thing that will leave him exposed to getting pink misted, if the acid itself doesn't wound him after multiple attempts from katsuyu.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Unless specified it's generally manga knowledge.



100 healings is not general manga knowledge. 



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Its not easy ripping a dudes arm off if he is resisting. Atleast not as easy as lifting an inanimate object.



I agree it’s nti as easy, but when the person ripping the arm off can casually lift up a building level speed without her power up, the difference in difficulty does not make much of a difference. This isn’t a kakashi not being durable thing as much as it is a tsuand ebeinf strong as fuck thing. Liek she could rip off oro’s arm, or Jman’s. 


Thsi doesn’t make kakashi weak, but he can’t resist a force that lifts up building level objects casually in base while fatigued.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

I would also like to point out that tsunade survived against five madara susanoo clones with KI. She never got beheaded, no genjutsu hit her, no stab to the brain, and I refuse to believe kakashi exerts more pressure then five madara’s do.


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I would also like to point out that tsunade survived against five madara susanoo clones with KI. She never got beheaded, no genjutsu hit her, no stab to the brain, and I refuse to believe kakashi exerts more pressure then five madara’s do.


Does that mean he cant survive if he was in her situation tho?


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

KisaitaParadise said:


> Does that mean he cant survive if he was in her situation tho?



He definetly would not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> He definetly would not.


Could Tsunade survive some of Kakashi's situations tho?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> 100 healings is not general manga knowledge.


Healing generally is. If Kakashi is prepped for a weaker healing version, I don't think he'll underestimate her.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

KisaitaParadise said:


> Could Tsunade survive some of Kakashi's situations tho?




Depends which ones. And some of them were tailored for kakashi because of kamui. 

It’s like inserting kakashi in a position that requires healing, that’s not his role. Tsunade isn’t a kamui not.

But in a neutral situation that kakashi is in tsunade does better


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Healing generally is. If Kakashi is prepped for a weaker healing version, I don't think he'll underestimate her.




Healing is, but not survive a raikiri to the chest. That’s far beyond kakashi’s knoweldge of her medical ninjutsu. No one would expect her to heal it. Sasori thought and was correct in assuming a simple sword in the right place was impossible for Sakura to heal from. 


He needs to specifically know about 100 healings to know she’d live a chidori


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Healing is, but not survive a raikiri to the chest. That’s far beyond kakashi’s knoweldge of her medical ninjutsu. No one would expect her to heal it. Sasori thought and was correct in assuming a simple sword in the right place was impossible for Sakura to heal from.
> 
> 
> He needs to specifically know about 100 healings to know she’d live a chidori


As long as she's in front of him hell be ready to act as soon as she does knowledge or no knowledge. So the moment she tries to do the 100 healings, which is visible, he'll act. And he can probably tell what's happening because he can see Chakra with his sharingan so her healing stealthily is out of question. He's not madara. He's not going to be arrogant and turn his back on her.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> As long as she's in front of him hell be ready to act as soon as she does knowledge or no knowledge. So the moment she tries to do the 100 healings, which is visible, he'll act. And he can probably tell what's happening because he can see Chakra with his sharingan so her healing stealthily is out of question. He's not madara. He's not going to be arrogant and turn his back on her.



Pretty sure madara was looking at her

It controls human senses and manipulates them

Either way she could just go for a punch and when he strikes first he’ll assume her punch will stop as she’s impaled, but we know it won’t, which is gg.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Kakashi never killed anyone with kamui
> 
> Gai never killed anyone with the seventh gate.
> 
> ...


Hashirama never killed someone with SS, therefore Iruka can survive it,....I guess, using your logic.


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## Santoryu (Jun 22, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Hashirama never killed someone with SS, therefore Iruka can survive it,....I guess, using your logic.



Do you think WA Kakashi can beat Jiraiya?


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Hashirama never killed someone with SS, therefore Iruka can survive it,....I guess, using your logic.



I was being sarcastic because someone said tsunade can’t kill kakashi with a punch because her punches have never killed anyone before. 


You and me are on the same page.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Do you think WA Kakashi can beat Jiraiya?




Didn’t quote me but ya Jman could.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Do you think WA Kakashi can beat Jiraiya?


Yomi Numa gg


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## Santoryu (Jun 22, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Yomi Numa gg



Really now?


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## hbcaptain (Jun 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Really now?


I never said Jiraya who would Yomi Numa ggs Kakashi, it's the inverse actually. We all know that Yomi Numa is a technique that's used by many ninjas (ieatabook), so Kakashi most likely has it since he is the copy ninja who copied over a thousand techniques. Therefore, he is the one who has more chances of Yomi Numa gging rather than Jiraya.

So, my point still stand strongly here.


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## JayK (Jun 22, 2019)

Still loses to 3T Kakashi.


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## Jad (Jun 22, 2019)

I don't understand how people say Tsunade can heal from whatever damage Kakashi can deal.

His Raikiri dismantles her quite easily. She throws up a block and his Raikiri cuts through her arms straight into her head.  Or he chain cuts her in half. Or he Raikiri slices through her like butter anyway he wants. Her losing a limb even is can almost translate to a auto-win for Kakashi.

Sharingan precog telegraphs her one dimensional advances, clone explodes, she's momentarily stunned, he chases her with a Raikiri like against Pain. That's one way of beating her. Whilst her way of beating Kakashi is a lunging punch that she pulls off all the time.

Tsunade can't outsmart Kakashi (1000 ninjutsu copy nin) to land a hit with one Taijutsu move.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Jun 22, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Kakashi's only chance at Victory Is by means of kamui



Ok, even assuming this is true... It's like saying Onoki's only chance is Jinton. If that's what it is, that's what it's gonna be, no? If the match requires Kamui, so be it, it's still a move Kakashi can pull at will.


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## Francyst (Jun 22, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I have seen that it has been said edo tensei don't have the same durability as normal ninja but if it can bring the Raikage back with his hard body I don't see why others won't be brought back close to their original durability as well.






SakuraLover16 said:


> Feinting is a big thing that I see often and while its effective there is a very small chance of it working on Tsunade because *she was able to keep up with five attacking Susanoo *who all had precog.


That's not what I call "keeping up"




SakuraLover16 said:


> Another thing I see often is him shocking her with his lightning clones but considering her durability and resiliency the effects would most likely not last long enough especially with her seal opened.


Tsunade is not durable and resilience =/= resistance


SakuraLover16 said:


> Precog is another thing that people use but Tsunade's reaction speed is high as well. For example she was able to hit Madara after being transported at light speed by Mabui's jutsu


Are you implying stopping after being transported at light speed disorientates you? And what does that have to do with reaction?


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## Mithos (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> And he can probably tell what's happening because he can see Chakra with his sharingan so her healing stealthily is out of question. He's not madara. He's not going to be arrogant and turn his back on her.



This is nonsense.

Even after her speech revealing _Strength of a Hundred - Creation Rebirth_, none of the Five Kage or Madara expected Tsunade to survive the impalement by the Susano'o sword, let alone mount a counter-attack. In fact, Kakashi's ability to predict the healing is outright contradicted by the fact that he was alarmed when Sakura was stabbed by Madara and didn't know what her technique was. Unless this fight takes place after seeing Sakura use the technique, he doesn't know about it.

I will say that Kakashi likely knows about _Creation Rebirth _regardless, as that seems to be more common knowledge by Part 2 (Anbu knew about her seal, and Shikaku knew about it when Tsunade suggested to use it to survive Mabui's teleportation).


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 22, 2019)

Doesnt Lee have both the nine tails cloak and gates open. He has the cloak but his hair is also spikey as well which happens when he activates the gates.


Francyst said:


> That's not what I call "keeping up"


She isn't dead. Not to mention that two of the Susanoo clones swords are still broken which means she stopped them from being as lethal. I believe its after that page they are in the background with broken swords.


Francyst said:


> Tsunade is not durable and resilience =/= resistance


Even Mabui says normal people were ripped to shreds by her jutsu even the Raikage looks uncomfortable.


Plus even in part 1 Kabuto claims that she wasn't an average/ordinary person because they wouldn't be moving.




Francyst said:


> Are you implying stopping after being transported at light speed disorientates you? And what does that have to do with reaction


No, I am implying that being shot at the speed of light and attacking before hitting the ground is a great feat for reactions because she had to be able to perceive Madara at the speed she was going in order to hit him. Going at that speed would give people tunnel vision I believe even  Raikiri did that for Kakashi.


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## Francyst (Jun 22, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Doesnt Lee have both the nine tails cloak and gates open. He has the cloak but his hair is also spikey as well which





SakuraLover16 said:


> She isn't dead.


Is that what "keeping up" means to you?


SakuraLover16 said:


> Even Mabui says normal people were ripped to shreds by her jutsu even the Raikage looks uncomfortable.


She survived because of regeneration. 


SakuraLover16 said:


> Plus even in part 1 Kabuto claims that she wasn't an average/ordinary person because they wouldn't be moving.


She only had a lack of oxygen and she was downed again right after that. This cant be used to suggests she can resist being stunned by lightning.


SakuraLover16 said:


> No, I am implying that being shot at the speed of light and attacking *before hitting the ground *is a great feat for reactions because she had to be able to perceive Madara at the speed she was going in order to hit him. Going at that speed would give people tunnel vision I believe even Raikiri did that for Kakashi.


Speculation. All you see is a flash and them getting attacked.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Ok, even assuming this is true... It's like saying Onoki's only chance is Jinton. If that's what it is, that's what it's gonna be, no? If the match requires Kamui, so be it, it's still a move Kakashi can pull at will.



The thing is that most people, even when diminishing Kakashi's other attacks and tactical ability that would allow him to overcome many opponents without Kamui, still accept the fact that Kamui can give him the win.

What this same "Kamui or bust" posters like to omit from their post, is the fact that Kamui or bust extremely likely to succeed due to it's unstopabble nature and low requirements(LOS basically).

It's just a half assed way to sneak around that fact. Kinda like me saying V2 or bust, FTG or bust, Susanoo or bust etc etc.. That doesn't give a real insight on how likely it is that those jutsus land.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 22, 2019)

Matto said:


> This is nonsense.


Sigh.... . Here we go again


Matto said:


> Even after her speech revealing _Strength of a Hundred - Creation Rebirth_, none of the Five Kage or Madara expected Tsunade to survive the impalement by the Susano'o sword, let alone mount a counter-attack.


Not even relevant...  Moving on. 


Matto said:


> Kakashi's ability to predict the healing is outright contradicted by the fact that he was alarmed when Sakura was stabbed by Madara and didn't know what her technique was.


What about the possibility of Kakashi not being aware of sakura having thst technique and not about the technique itself ????
And Maybe if Kakashi  had the sharingan he'd tell ?? By seeing chakra with the Sharingan?  Maybe ??


Matto said:


> Unless this fight takes place after seeing Sakura use the technique, he doesn't know about it.


He doesn't have to .. .. That's my whole point. It's Kakashi we are talking about. He's thorough even with the knowledge of far weaker healing techs.


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> By seeing chakra with the Sharingan? Maybe



Madara was looking at tsunade 

This point isn’t a point at all, it’s fanfiction


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> The thing is that most people, even when diminishing Kakashi's other attacks and tactical ability that would allow him to overcome many opponents without Kamui, still accept the fact that Kamui can give him the win.
> 
> What this same "Kamui or bust" posters like to omit from their post, is the fact that Kamui or bust extremely likely to succeed due to it's unstopabble nature and low requirements(LOS basically).
> 
> It's just a half assed way to sneak around that fact. Kinda like me saying V2 or bust, FTG or bust, Susanoo or bust etc etc.. That doesn't give a real insight on how likely it is that those jutsus land.




Depends on who hits first really, kamui or tsuande. Although I’d argue kamui wouldn’t be used right out the gate, and I would also argue that if she doesn’t kill him before he uses it ( which she definetly has the potential to), I’d find getting off a headsnipe kamui would be difficult. 


I am much more inclined to say that because he’s dodging punches creating explosions and such, he will probably get a sloppy kamui that rips off her arm and shoulder. Or maybe a portion of her body. Usually this doesn’t really matter because no one lives from that, but tsunade with katsuyu and 1000 heals does. 


And once Katsuyu is out it’s bad news bears for kakashi


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 23, 2019)

Francyst said:


> Base


That's not base Lee.


Francyst said:


> Is that what "keeping up" means to you?


There was more after that part. Both Gaara and Mei were completely overwhelmed, Ay when he took his focus away from the battle was genjutsu'd, I also have to mention that when Tsunade keeled over from the pain she wasn't being confronted at that time. Ohnoki seemed to have the easiest time though I'll admit.


Francyst said:


> She survived because of regeneration.


She didn't activate it until after they were transported.
This is her doing the handsign and the seal opening you can tell because it makes a noise. Then at the bottom panel you see it making another noise which means its closing

This is after where she closes the seal. You can tell it isn't automatic healing because it doesn't spread across her body.

You must be talking about this.

What you were seeing I asume you are talking about her ankle is blood.


Francyst said:


> She only had a lack of oxygen and she was downed again right after that. This cant be used to suggests she can resist being stunned by lightning.


No but the fact that he admits that a normal person would be unable to move. Plus she sat back down because the muscles that help raise/lower the diaphragm was cut. I used that as an example to show that she isn't just a run of the mill ninja. For example survive being cut in half or moving after her spine was damaged so if she can still move her legs when the nerves that send impulses to her lower body are destroyed. Not to mention dven after having his impulses scrambled Kabuto was still able to move but that is besides the point. Basically the clone schocks you forcibly contracting your muscles but to use real world logic some people are able to resist the effects of a taser. So basically that is what the clone is it may also help that Byakugou would be active around this time anyhow and/or the effects won't last nearly as long.


Francyst said:


> Speculation. All you see is a flash and them getting attacked.


Either way its a really good feat either they hit them before they landed or hit them after they landed by jumping back up to intercept either way its still a good feat because they attacked instantly after being shot to the battlefield at the speed of light which still means crazy fast reactions while being injured no less. Plus if they had hit the ground first Tsunade would have opened the seal seeing as she did so after the attack.

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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Madara was looking at tsunade
> 
> This point isn’t a point at all, it’s fanfiction


It's not fanfic if sharingan seeing chakra is cannon. 
But was he looking for her healing???? Was he checking to make sure or just looking???
Sharingan can see Chakra... That's not fanfic. How one uses that ability is based on them, and here Kakashi would use it because he has to be thorough, unlike Madara who can just kill her proper the next time.


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## LostSelf (Jun 23, 2019)

She can beat Kamui-less Kakashi.

Not WA Kakashi with Kamui unrestricted.


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## Jad (Jun 23, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> That's not base Lee.
> 
> There was more after that part. Both Gaara and Mei were completely overwhelmed, Ay when he took his focus away from the battle was genjutsu'd, I also have to mention that when Tsunade keeled over from the pain she wasn't being confronted at that time. Ohnoki seemed to have the easiest time though I'll admit.
> 
> ...


Author has always made it apparent if the user is Gated, from no-pupils, to aura, to skin color, to text stating their gated level activation. Not one single box was ticked when Lee kicked Madara in half yet you state he was in Gated form due to his hair? His hair moves when he moves, doesn't mean his Gated.

Also 'Tsunades' feat of transferring through Mabui's technique means...not much. Mabui knows her technique works on the 3rd Raikage but what exactly was her scale for those that get sliced up? If she tested it on fodder and they came out shredded, then that's what she uses as a scale - which makes Tsunade surviving not a big accomplishment. And was Mabui speaking figuratively or literally? Some would say how Tsunade came out of the transfer is not that a far cry to how Mabui described it: 'ripped to shreds' could be just the term that describes how Tsunade looked with all those lacerations.

Finally, Shikaku knew Tsunade wouldn't survive getting on the field until Tsunade exclaimed her ability to sew wounds together. This had nothing to do with durability. Unless Tsunade is the dumbest person to go through a jutsu that could tear her limb to limb - thus not allowing her to form the seal to use Creation rebirth. Kishi never intended that scene to show Tsunade's durability because it wasn't the deciding factor or even a mentionable in her going through the move. It was her life draining Technique. It's Tsunade fans that harp on the scene meant to really prove nothing.

Where A is the tank she's the healer. They came out of Mabui's move using their best traits.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 23, 2019)

Jad said:


> Author has always made it apparent if the user is Gated, from no-pupils, to aura, to skin color, to text stating their gated level activation. Not one single box was ticked when Lee kicked Madara in half yet you state he was in Gated form due to his hair? His hair moves when he moves, doesn't mean his Gated.


Hmm upon further research it looks like the gates weren't activated which I'm still kind of shaky about considering I looked and saw more ambiguous scans. However, that still isn't Base Lee considering he is cloaked in Kyuubi chakra plus it may have changed the property of the attack to a sharper one considering the slice sound effect the chakra also seems to be clawed at the feet. This means that Lee may have been benefitting from a boost and not because Madara's durability is inconsistent. I say this because it put Ay near his durability.


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## Mithos (Jun 23, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Sigh.... . Here we go again
> Not even relevant...  Moving on.



It is very relevant. You're asserting that Kakashi will guess the effects of _Strength of a Hundred - Creation Rebirth_ by just looking at her with his Sharingan. Yet, even after she made a speech about it, her allies didn't expect her to live, and more importantly, neither did Rinnegan Madara.



> What about the possibility of Kakashi not being aware of sakura having thst technique and not about the technique itself ????
> And Maybe if Kakashi  had the sharingan he'd tell ?? By seeing chakra with the Sharingan?  Maybe ??



At that point in time he wasn't aware such a technique even existed -- no one was, because until Tsunade used it against Madara (Kakashi was not there to witness and no news traveled yet), it had never been used.

Even when Madara with the superior Rinnegan, and chakra sensing abilities, knew she was a medic and heard her speech about being the only medic able to fight on the front-lines, he didn't expect her to live, let alone mount a counter-attack.

There is simply no rationale for Kakashi to know the limits/potency of her regeneration -- none.

Worse, even if we grant him knowledge of it, he can't overcome it.



> He doesn't have to .. .. That's my whole point. It's Kakashi we are talking about. He's thorough even with the knowledge of far weaker healing techs



"It's Kakashi we are talking about" is not an argument. No matter how intelligent he is, he doesn't know about techniques that have never been used before. So unless this is Kakashi at the end of the War Arc after seeing it through Sakura, he has no way to know about it.

Also, I just want to say that I find it amusing that you were putting Jiraiya at a disadvantage against Itachi because Jiraiya didn't have _full_ knowledge of Itachi's abilities (even though he knows quite a bit), but here you're making excuses to grant Kakashi knowledge or perception abilities he does not possess so as to not admit that he's at a disadvantage.

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## Jad (Jun 23, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Hmm upon further research it looks like the gates weren't activated which I'm still kind of shaky about considering I looked and saw more ambiguous scans. However, that still isn't Base Lee considering he is cloaked in Kyuubi chakra plus it may have changed the property of the attack to a sharper one considering the slice sound effect the chakra also seems to be clawed at the feet. This means that Lee may have been benefitting from a boost and not because Madara's durability is inconsistent. I say this because it put Ay near his durability.


Lee never swiped Madara with his Kyuubi claw, he hit him almost knee to chest with his shin and thigh connecting his adomen. Unless were talking about the Kyuubi parts that are shape manipulated, then it's pure blunt force that tore through Madara.

Plus considering every other time Kyuubi cloak attacks that connected which werent illustrated to be sharp (e.g. claw or fang) have never slashed or sliced anyone before; just look at the plethora od times Naruto punched someone cloaked - it never 'peirced' someone.

Kyuubi gave users a 3x boost in Chakra but what use is that to Lee in his attacks. Healing properties and stamina are the advantages Lee got moreso. Though a boost in speed and strength does occur, probably not as much as the boost ninjutsu users got.


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## Azula (Jun 23, 2019)

Kakashi being faster gets the first hit with Raikiri


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




And then Tsunade being stronger grabs him and gets the second hit

That is all the match comes down to.

Tsunade has successfully hit faster opponents than her-

Orochimaru who is as fast or faster than kakashi
Madara who is definitely faster than Kakashi (at least five times)

Speed is not an issue for Tsunade at all


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## Blu-ray (Jun 23, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Kakashi's only chance at Victory Is by means of kamui


Which is sufficient, as a single successful snipe is all he needs.


> She can heal from any damage output from Kakashi


She cannot heal from having her head wrenched off, and even if you're one of those people who thinks she can regrow a body from the neck down or regrow a head, it still won't help against Kamui when it can send her entire body to another dimension.


> She will last longer in battle


Irrelevant as this won't be a fight off attrition, but a battle that will only last as long as it takes Kakashi to warp her, or Tsunade to punch him. Whichever comes first.



> Kakashi cannot kill off Katsuyu


True, however he doesn't need to as defeating the summoner deals with the summon itself, and this is assuming she'd even bring out Katsuyu against Kakashi.



> Acid spray will be something Kakashi will have to constantly avoid or he will die


Yes, if you don't avoid things that can kill you, you die. The issue is whether or not Kakashi _can_ avoid it, or otherwise deal with it.


> Tsunade only has to land one attack to win


The same goes for Kakashi, except his decisive attack is far easier to land than hers is. Tsunade can't dodge or block Kamui, nor does she employ feints than can misdirect him.



> For those who disagree explain why


You didn't explain how she defeats him in the first place. All you've done is state the obvious. He can't win without Kamui? Irrelevant as he can win with it. He can't outlast her? Irrelevant as he can finish her before he exhausts himself. He has to deal with a bunch of acid and her every punch? Sure. Just as she has to avoid Kamui. Kakashi can at least consistently do the former. Tsunade cannot consistently do the latter.

All that said, she _can_ win, but it's by summoning Katsuyu immediately and then concealing herself within it, and doing that is about as in character for Tsunade, as starting with Kamui right off the bat is Kakashi.


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## Jad (Jun 23, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> Which is sufficient, as a single successful snipe is all he needs.
> 
> She cannot heal from having her head wrenched off, and even if you're one of those people who thinks she can regrow a body from the neck down or regrow a head, it still won't help against Kamui when it can send her entire body to another dimension.
> 
> ...


Awesome reply.

Might I add,  her means of catching Kakashi with a right hook is less than his means of catching her with a Raikiri or Kamui; since he has 1000 jutsus for setups. This is due to her nomal/average speed, linear attack pattern, and only attack being a punch/ or kick with no finesse.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 23, 2019)

Matto said:


> It is very relevant. You're asserting that Kakashi will guess the effects of _Strength of a Hundred - Creation Rebirth_ by just looking at her with his Sharingan. Yet, even after she made a speech about it, her allies didn't expect her to live, and more importantly, neither did Rinnegan Madara.


No it is not relevant. 
Using Madara's reactions to tell what Kakashi would do is not relevant. It does not work thst way. 
I am saying Kakashi will know something is up with her chakra instead of her dying and thst is enough for him to come to. Conclusion about what is happening. Her allies are not Kakashi.. They are not remotely as smart as him. That is why their reactions mean nothing here. 


Matto said:


> At that point in time he wasn't aware such a technique even existed -- no one was, because until Tsunade used it against Madara (Kakashi was not there to witness and no news traveled yet), it had never been used.


Again.... It would be different if he had his sharingan. 


Matto said:


> Even when Madara with the superior Rinnegan, and chakra sensing abilities, knew she was a medic and heard her speech about being the only medic able to fight on the front-lines, he didn't expect her to live, let alone mount a counter-attack.


He didn't expect her to live because he thinks so low of her. Sometging Kakashi won't ever do. Why is this so hard to understand??? Madara did not react not because his eyes failed to, he didn't because he could care less. He was so strong he assumed she'd be dead. Something Kakashi will never do against Tsunade.


Matto said:


> There is simply no rationale for Kakashi to know the limits/potency of her regeneration -- none.
> 
> Worse, even if we grant him knowledge of it, he can't overcome it.


As long as he knows she's healing, that's enough knowledge for a guy like kakashi. 

And with knowledge, he can definitely overcome it. Kamui. 


Matto said:


> It's Kakashi we are talking about" is not an argument. No matter how intelligent he is, he doesn't know about techniques that have never been used before. So unless this is Kakashi at the end of the War Arc after seeing it through Sakura, he has no way to know about it.


It's Kakashi we are talking about is an argument if you pay Atleast a minimum amount of attention to the character he is. The guy can dissect techniques as they are being used in front of him. He doesn't need prior knowledge. That's his specialty. 
He doesn't need to see Sakura do it. He can figure it out as it is happening. 


Matto said:


> Also, I just want to say that I find it amusing that you were putting Jiraiya at a disadvantage against Itachi because Jiraiya didn't have _full_ knowledge of Itachi's abilities (even though he knows quite a bit), but here you're making excuses to grant Kakashi knowledge or perception abilities he does not possess so as to not admit that he's at a disadvantage.


Because Jiraiya is not nearly as good as Kakashi in dissecting and assessment..
And also I'd like to point out how futile it is to equate a no knowledge situation with Itachi to a no knowledge situation with Tsunade. Both operate at different levels. Itachi can kill you before you do the assessment,, his techniques are that dangerous hence Jman or anyone without knowledge against him is at a huge disadvantage.. Tsunade is a medic and her biggest secret is healing. She isn't doing any counter attacking with that. By the time one figures her secret out, the only thing she is doing is probably heal herself instead of outright killing, like Itachi can. I seriously did not expect you to try and equate these 2 scenarios as similar.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 23, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Kakashi's only chance at Victory Is by means of kamui
> 
> 
> She can heal from any damage output from Kakashi
> ...



We already know that. Kakashi without kamui while still strong is barely a top tier. He wins instantly if he is allowed to use Kamui though lol.


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## Zembie (Jun 23, 2019)

That's like saying Tsunade's only chance of victory is Byakugo. Both Kamui and Byakugo are a part of their arsenal.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Francyst (Jun 23, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> That's not base Lee.


Wasn't shown activating and Iris is still there


SakuraLover16 said:


> There was more after that part. Both Gaara and Mei were completely overwhelmed, Ay when he took his focus away from the battle was genjutsu'd, I also have to mention that when Tsunade keeled over from the pain she wasn't being confronted at that time. Ohnoki seemed to have the easiest time though I'll admit.


Her teams performance is irrelevant.


SakuraLover16 said:


> She didn't activate it until after they were transported.
> This is her doing the handsign and the seal opening you can tell because it makes a noise. Then at the bottom panel you see it making another noise which means its closing


This does not mean she was not regenerating before that. Mabui said everyone gets torn apart and arrives dead when transported and Tsunade responded with her seal. Implying that's  her counter to the damage.


SakuraLover16 said:


> No but the fact that he admits that a normal person would be unable to move. Plus she sat back down because the muscles that help raise/lower the diaphragm was cut.


In your scan, Kabuto was wondering if she was capable of moving because his chakra scapel didnt penetrate her chest deep enough.   Meaning it was the oxygen. 


SakuraLover16 said:


> For example survive being cut in half or moving after her spine was damaged so if she can still move her legs when the nerves that send impulses to her lower body are destroyed.


This is resilience.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 23, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> Which is sufficient, as a single successful snipe is all he needs.
> 
> She cannot heal from having her head wrenched off, and even if you're one of those people who thinks she can regrow a body from the neck down or regrow a head, it still won't help against Kamui when it can send her entire body to another dimension.
> 
> ...



Pretty much just negged @Shazam 's NF career


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## Azula (Jun 23, 2019)

Raiton element is mainly used for piercing a target because Raiton is best at piercing.

IC Kakashi somehow using it for beheading or cutting someone in half in first try is a fanfiction. Same goes for Hebi Sasuke/A3.

He will try to stab her and die when she grabs him.

Fuuton is the element best for cutting too bad Kakashi doesn't have it. 

*Link Removed*


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## Azula (Jun 23, 2019)

Why people pretending not to remember that all the iconic scenes with chidori and raikiri have involved *stabbing* someone?


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 23, 2019)

Jad said:


> Lee never swiped Madara with his Kyuubi claw, he hit him almost knee to chest with his shin and thigh connecting his adomen. Unless were talking about the Kyuubi parts that are shape manipulated, then it's pure blunt force that tore through Madara.
> 
> Plus considering every other time Kyuubi cloak attacks that connected which werent illustrated to be sharp (e.g. claw or fang) have never slashed or sliced anyone before; just look at the plethora od times Naruto punched someone cloaked - it never 'peirced' someone.
> 
> Kyuubi gave users a 3x boost in Chakra but what use is that to Lee in his attacks. Healing properties and stamina are the advantages Lee got moreso. Though a boost in speed and strength does occur, probably not as much as the boost ninjutsu users got.


My point is that it isn't Base Lee. If the cloak is increasing the potency of ninjutsu why wouldn't it also increase physical strength as well and why not to the same extent? Lee has high base strength as well. Also my other point is what makes Madara any different from the Raikage who was brought back with his hard body? Does that mean Edo Tensei forgot about everyone else's durability? We see everyone else recieve a power up in a couple of pages before and afterward either so why would this apply less for Lee? The attack also wasn't peircing but cutting hence the slice sound effect.


Francyst said:


> Wasn't shown activating and Iris is still there


That's still not Base Lee because he is cloaked me and Jad are discussing the boost it could/would provide.

I would also like to say that even if we call into question his durability we cannot do the same for his Susanoo.


Francyst said:


> Her teams performance is irrelevant.


Her teams performance is relevant because I was using it as a comparison.


Francyst said:


> This does not mean she was not regenerating before that. Mabui said everyone gets torn apart and arrives dead when transported and Tsunade responded with her seal. Implying that's her counter to the damage.


But she doesn't start her healing until after she lands thats why you see the sound effect of it opening and closing after she lands. She mainly had lacerations from the transportation. The healing that you were seeing her do is also not automatic she holds the handseal while the healing takes place and lets it go when she is done. That is creation rebirth not the technique that is the combination of strength of one hundred and creation rebirth. Therefore she could not have done it especially considering that it wasn't the same technique.


Francyst said:


> In your scan, Kabuto was wondering if she was capable of moving because his chakra scapel didnt penetrate her chest deep enough. Meaning it was the oxygen.


He stills says normal people wouldn't be moving from such attack.


Francyst said:


> This is resilience.


Resilience and Resistance practically mean the same thing.

Resilience- the capacity to recover quickly from difficulties; toughness.

Resistance- the ability not to be affected by something, especially adversely.

She has displayed both of these. She was Resilient when she was cut in half. She showed Resistance when she walked around with two swords lodged in her spine.

Anyways they are basically the same thing. 

Guys I kind of don't want to argue anymore these types of things are long and drawn out and I'm ready to slink into the darkness.

TLDR: For some reason in you didn't read it depends on who gets off their most effective hit first. I believe it would be Tsunade because she has an easier and more cost-effective way of killing Kakashi


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## Bonly (Jun 23, 2019)

> Kakashi's only chance at Victory Is by means of kamui



Yup pretty much but since she’s all about CQC he has a good shot at landing it


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## Ayala (Jun 23, 2019)

Azula said:


> Why people pretending not to remember that all the iconic scenes with chidori and raikiri have involved *stabbing* someone?



You're talking about someone among the greatest geniouses in the Narutoverse, yet say he's gonna charge like a fool towards certain death and stab Tsunade knowing it's not gonna do shit. 

Raikiri can be used in slicing motions too, as Kakashi does here 

*Link Removed* 
And when cutting Kakuzu's threads. And it's implied he was gonna use it this same way against Hidan, knowing the only way to beat hin is having him dismembered or beheaded. 

So it's doable... Sasuke used his Chidori *Spear *for cutting when it was needed, why wouldn't Kakashi do the same?


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## Sufex (Jun 23, 2019)

Ayala said:


> You're talking about someone among the greatest geniouses in the Narutoverse, yet say he's gonna charge like a fool towards certain death and stab Tsunade knowing it's not gonna do shit.
> 
> Raikiri can be used in slicing motions too, as Kakashi does here
> 
> ...


He tried to slice deva path as well when he blindside attacked him from behind. And lightning cable is all about slicing


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## Architect (Jun 23, 2019)

Ayala said:


> You're talking about someone among the greatest geniouses in the Narutoverse, yet say he's gonna charge like a fool towards certain death and stab Tsunade knowing it's not gonna do shit.
> 
> Raikiri can be used in slicing motions too, as Kakashi does here
> 
> ...


was about to write this, but you did it first


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## Hasan (Jun 23, 2019)

He also _cut_ Kaguya's arm.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 23, 2019)

@Blu-ray Can I get a section ban?


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## Azula (Jun 23, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Raikiri can be used in slicing motions too, as Kakashi does here



Obviously, but that's* NOT *it's main purpose. 

Lightning element- piercing
Wind element- cutting

Both can do the others job but the element users do not use it as a first instinct. 

This is what a beheading looks like.

Not raiton. Using some secondary use for Raikiri to argue that Kakashi will win in *1* try is not correct.


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## Zembie (Jun 23, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> @Blu-ray Can I get a section ban?


Idk if you gotta ask an admin doe.


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## Ayala (Jun 23, 2019)

Azula said:


> Obviously, but that's* NOT *it's main purpose.
> 
> Lightning element- piercing
> Wind element- cutting
> ...



Ok, but it's doable if it comes down to it. Kakashi obviously is not going to suicide because cutting is not Raikiri's main purpose. 

And lastly, the tech is called "Lighting *Blade*", because apparently Kakashi *cut *lighting in two when younger.


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## blk (Jun 23, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Kakashi's only chance at Victory Is by means of kamui
> 
> 
> She can heal from any damage output from Kakashi
> ...



Kakashi can win even by decapitation.

Thing is, that Kakashi is faster, more agile and smarter, so it's very unlikely he will be hit by Tsunade.
What's more likely is that Tsunade falls to a raiton clone feint, and then gets decapitated.

Katsuyu is a problem, but really he can just dodge the acid.

If everything else fails, Kamui seals the deal.

It's very unlikely it will come down to outlasting (in which Tsunade wins obviously) since Kakashi is not the type to drag fights for long, outside of initially testing the opponent's abilities to formulate a strategy.
His ninjutsu arsenal is all about one shotting.

I'm assuming that this is WA Kakashi and we are taking about scenarios with roughly neutral conditions, manga knowledge and IC mindset.


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## Francyst (Jun 23, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> My point is that it isn't Base Lee. If the cloak is increasing the potency of ninjutsu why wouldn't it also increase physical strength as well and why not to the same extent? Lee has high base strength as well. Also my other point is what makes Madara any different from the Raikage who was brought back with his hard body? Does that mean Edo Tensei forgot about everyone else's durability? We see everyone else recieve a power up in a couple of pages before and afterward either so why would this apply less for Lee? The attack also wasn't peircing but cutting hence the slice sound effect.


Oh I know Lee is cloaked. I meant him himself. V1 cloak cant split someone in two with a blunt attack. We saw V1 Bees lariat only bust Sasukes chest.

A3 is different from Madara because he's naturally durable without the cloak so he should be tougher than Madara in edo too.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Her teams performance is relevant because I was using it as a comparison.


Their performance is irrelevant because we're talking about Tsunade. Just because they did worse does not mean Tsunade did well and it seems like that's what you're trying to say.


SakuraLover16 said:


> He stills says normal people wouldn't be moving from such attack.


...and that's her resilience. Again, it can't be used to suggest she can resist lightning.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Resilience and Resistance practically mean the same thing.


No. 


SakuraLover16 said:


> She has displayed both of these. She was Resilient when she was cut in half. She showed Resistance when she walked around with two swords lodged in her spine.


Both examples of resilience. Also resistance to physical damage doesn't also mean resistance to lightning.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Guys I kind of don't want to argue anymore these types of things are long and drawn out and I'm ready to slink into the darkness.


I'm not letting you go again


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> It's not fanfic if sharingan seeing chakra is cannon.
> But was he looking for her healing???? Was he checking to make sure or just looking???
> Sharingan can see Chakra... That's not fanfic. How one uses that ability is based on them, and here Kakashi would use it because he has to be thorough, unlike Madara who can just kill her proper the next time.




Then why did t madara see her chakra as your describing when he stabbed her. He was looking at her you know and he has a superior sharingan


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 23, 2019)

Francyst said:


> Oh I know Lee is cloaked. I meant him himself. V1 cloak cant split someone in two with a blunt attack. We saw V1 Bees lariat only bust Sasukes chest.
> 
> A3 is different from Madara because he's naturally durable without the cloak so he should be tougher than Madara in edo too


Naruto's chakra is more potent than Bee's. Other than that I agree.


Francyst said:


> Their performance is irrelevant because we're talking about Tsunade. Just because they did worse does not mean Tsunade did well and it seems like that's what you're trying to say.


You asked me did just surviving mean she did well. I said doing well means she did well.


Francyst said:


> ...and that's her resilience. Again, it can't be used to suggest she can resist lightning.


My point is not that she negs the lightning but that she may not be adversly affected by it I think there is a better word


Francyst said:


> No.


Yes


Francyst said:


> Both examples of resilience. Also resistance to physical damage doesn't also mean resistance to lightning.


Both apply though. She is resilient because she can bounce back after taking damage. She shows resistence by not being adversely affected by the injuries she sustains.


Francyst said:


> I'm not letting you go again


If you love me you will...


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 23, 2019)

Lmao when folks start arguing that Kakashi is not even capable of using a technique that is know for it's cutting and piercing power, you know things are getting desperate. 

What's Tsunade gonna do if he goes for the head like he did vs Deva or slicing like he did vs Asura?

Raiton wolf also stops her on her track and paralyses her.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 23, 2019)

Azula said:


> Raiton element is mainly used for piercing a target because Raiton is best at piercing.
> 
> IC Kakashi somehow using it for beheading or cutting someone in half in first try is a fanfiction. Same goes for Hebi Sasuke/A3.
> 
> ...


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Then why did t madara see her chakra as your describing when he stabbed her. He was looking at her you know and he has a superior sharingan


He was looking at her, not looking for any changes in her chakra. Sharingan can see Chakra when the user wants to.


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> He was looking at her, not looking for any changes in her chakra. Sharingan can see Chakra when the user wants to.




Pretty sure it’s automatic once it’s on. Although why would he switch it off when looking at her to the switch it back on when he would be fighting the other kage. Why not just leave it on at all times. Seems a bit redundant. And why would kakashi leave his on then if he assumed she’d die from the attack?


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## Francyst (Jun 23, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Naruto's chakra is more potent than Bee's. Other than that I agree.


Bee's 3 tail V1 cloak > Kyuubi basic V1 cloak.


SakuraLover16 said:


> You asked me did just surviving mean she did well. I said doing well means she did well.


W-what 


SakuraLover16 said:


> My point is not that she negs the lightning but that she may not be adversly affected by it I think there is a better word


You can't find another word for that because it makes no sense. Two completely different "status ailments"


SakuraLover16 said:


> Both apply though. She is resilient because she can bounce back after taking damage. She shows resistence *by not being adversely affected by the injuries she sustains.*


That's headcanon


SakuraLover16 said:


> If you love me you will...


But I'm selfish


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Lmao when folks start arguing that Kakashi is not even capable of using a technique that is know for it's cutting and piercing power, you know things are getting desperate.
> 
> What's Tsunade gonna do if he goes for the head like he did vs Deva or slicing like he did vs Asura?
> 
> Raiton wolf also stops her on her track and paralyses her.




Why do people assume kakashi will instantly hit her the second he wants to? Is tsunade incapable of dodging?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Pretty sure it’s automatic once it’s on. Although why would he switch it off when looking at her to the switch it back on when he would be fighting the other kage. Why not just leave it on at all times. Seems a bit redundant. And why would kakashi leave his on then if he assumed she’d die from the attack?


I'm not sure about that... Maybe it's auto on. Or maybe it's not, but the mindset difference between Madara and Kakashi is enough for one of them to give a shit and the other one not to .  And why would you assume he'd switch it back on against the other kage??? If it's off he'd rather keep it off. 
And why would Kakashi see her chakra??  Because it's Kakashi... And he is fighting a world reknown medic Ninja..  Obviously he'll check and make sure that she is not healing In stealth... Pretty Simple.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Why do people assume kakashi will instantly hit her the second he wants to? Is tsunade incapable of dodging?


Probably the same reason that you assume that Kakashi will lose about 150 IQ points and fight like a dumbass. 

_Reasons._


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Why do people assume kakashi will instantly hit her the second he wants to? Is tsunade incapable of dodging?



Because the moment she tries to attack Kakashi at close range, this is what's gonna happen to her. 



Except that it will be Raikiri in hand, going to her neck, or head.


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Because the moment she tries to attack Kakashi at close range, this is what's gonna happen to her.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that it will be Raikiri in hand, going to her neck, or head.




But we have seen kakashi’s sharingan precog be beat, it’s not invincible. And tsunade has great reaction speed as well. Not to mention that he will mostly opt for a raikiri to the chest, something that would get him killed. 

You would think if it was so easy to hit her in the neck madara would have done it when he had five clones all with susanoo on her ass. Instead he could only manage to get the sword into her stomache, doing very little. That’s probably what will happen with raikiri. Straight to the chest as tsunade goes for a punch, kakashi assumes the chidori impact will stop the punch as he impales her, he hits first, expects the punch to stop due to his hand inside her chest, 100 healings allows her to continue the punch and red mist happens.


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> And why would Kakashi see her chakra?? Because it's Kakashi... And he is fighting a world reknown medic Ninja.. Obviously he'll check and make sure that she is not healing In stealth... Pretty Simple.



To his knowledge no medic ninja, not even tsunade, can heal from being stabbed in the chest. All other medical ninjutsu she has pales to 100 healings, and he has no reason to believe she can heal in stealth from it, because it’s so far out there. A stab to the chest is gg for every medical ninja besides tsunade and WA Sakura, and kakashi doesn’t know that. 


Besides, I’m 99 percent sure it’s auto because we have never seen someone just turn off the sharingan chakra thing but keep the eyes, makes it kinda useless doesn’t it? And why would madara turn it off anyways. 


Madara has not Eason to turn it off, and the chance that eh cna even do so is debatable, so the chances of what your saying are very low. 


The fact that Orochimaru though she couldn’t heal from a few sword cuts yet kakashi is supposed to know that she can heal from a chidori to the heart is absurd.


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Probably the same reason that you assume that Kakashi will lose about 150 IQ points and fight like a dumbass.
> 
> _Reasons._



I don’t think he’ll fight like a dumbass, where are you getting this from?


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## Zero890 (Jun 23, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Because the moment she tries to attack Kakashi at close range, this is what's gonna happen to her.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that it will be Raikiri in hand, going to her neck, or head.



No, he was stabbed by someone who is not as skilled in hand-to-hand combat as Tsunade


*Spoiler*: __ 








Kakashi dies


*Spoiler*: __


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I don’t think he’ll fight like a dumbass, where are you getting this from?


From you assuming that Kakashi is just going to stick a Raikiri in Tsunade's chest and then let her punch his head off? 

The knowledge isn't specified so we can assume it's manga knowledge. Assuming he does charge at Tsunade like that... it's 100% going to be a clone. Assuming a Raikiri _does_ connect like that, Kamui is *much* faster than Tsunade's fist (and literally anything else that Tsunade could think to do in that situation). Especially with a hole in her chest. Assuming Kakashi is actually acting like Kakashi instead of this fantasy Kakashi that you've invented, he's not going to put his real body in such close proximity to Tsunade without a plan. He has his Lightning Hound, Lightning Transmission, and Kamui to deal with her at range. There's no reason to assume that he'll just raikiri her chest and then sit there while she one shots him or rips his arms off or whatever. Again... even if he did put himself in that position, he probably did so with a plan in mind and if worst comes to worst, his reaction speed with Kamui is faster than anything Tsunade could do. Especially when he's using it defensively. But he never needs to put himself in that position to begin with and he knows that.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 23, 2019)

Francyst said:


> Bee's 3 tail V1 cloak > Kyuubi basic V1 cloak.


Its the chakra that I'm talking about not 


Francyst said:


> W-what


When you quoted my post that said she didn't die but you only quoted that part.


Francyst said:


> You can't find another word for that because it makes no sense. Two completely different "status ailments"


I feel like we just aren't understanding each other. If she is resilient enough to walk around with a destroyed spine she is resilient enough to tank lightning from a clone with few drawbacks.


Francyst said:


> That's headcanon


Thats the definitions I googled.


Francyst said:


> But I'm selfish


I'm gonna seek out a temporary ban soon I hope. This section isn't what it used to be and it's my fault for coming back for more.


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> From you assuming that Kakashi is just going to stick a Raikiri in Tsunade's chest and then let her punch his head off?
> 
> The knowledge isn't specified so we can assume it's manga knowledge. Assuming he does charge at Tsunade like that... it's 100% going to be a clone. Assuming a Raikiri _does_ connect like that, Kamui is *much* faster than Tsunade's fist (and literally anything else that Tsunade could think to do in that situation). Especially with a hole in her chest. Assuming Kakashi is actually acting like Kakashi instead of this fantasy Kakashi that you've invented, he's not going to put his real body in such close proximity to Tsunade without a plan. He has his Lightning Hound, Lightning Transmission, and Kamui to deal with her at range. There's no reason to assume that he'll just raikiri her chest and then sit there while she one shots him or rips his arms off or whatever. Again... even if he did put himself in that position, he probably did so with a plan in mind and if worst comes to worst, his reaction speed with Kamui is faster than anything Tsunade could do. Especially when he's using it defensively. But he never needs to put himself in that position to begin with and he knows that.




If it’s manga knowledge kakashi shouldn’t know about 100 healings so if a raikiri lands in her chest he assumes she’s dead and she punches his head off. 

Location dictates if he can find cover to make a clone, if it’s a flat area he’ll find it hard to make a clone without tsuande knowing, especially since she can hear heartbeats from far away so she’ll know. 

Any long range ninjutsu gets swatted away like madara’s fire jutsu did. Or dodged. All he is doing by zoning her out is exauhsting his chakra reserves. Not that WA kakashi can’t spam for days, but it would be pointless and redundant. 


Tsunade in this way can cover the distance very quickly due to her speed and tanky nature, and the subsequent explosions following her punches and kicks should she miss and hit the ground throw kakashi off and make things a little difficult. Kakashi just running around forever away from tsunade will eventually land him in a situation where she connects a punch, he is not so much faster that he can play tag with her and she never touches him. 

Kamui would probably snipe off a good part of her body becaus e a precise headsnipe would be hard to get off on the middle of a battle where you have this fast one shot woman creating explosions with every  punch she misses as you try to dodge and fire off jutsu to no avail. Kamui snipes off a part of her body but Katsuyu and 100 heals will give whatever part of her body back. 

Kakashi himself doesn’t have much he can do against katsuyu, while katsuyu sprays acid and damage amps tsunade for even brighter explosions, Kakashi will be punched eventually. Tsunade will probably be hit with many jutsu’s and a few cqc attacks, kunai and such, but they all do nothing.

While kakashi gets hot once and dies. 

My raikiri to the chest argument is in response to people saying he just cuts her head off with raikiri, whcj will not happen.


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 23, 2019)

Shazam said:


> She can heal from any damage output from Kakashi
> She will last longer in battle
> Kakashi cannot kill off Katsuyu
> Acid spray will be something Kakashi will have to constantly avoid or he will die
> Tsunade only has to land one attack to win


1. She can't heal from getting beheaded or halved by Raikiri kunai, Lightning Cable, or Kamui
2. Baseless
3. I thought we were discussing Tsunade vs Kakashi not Katsuyu, besides Tsunade almost never summoned Katsuyu in a fight not even against Edo Madara. She wouldn't against Kakashi
4. I thought we were discussing Tsunade vs Kakashi not Katsuyu, besides Tsunade almost never summoned Katsuyu in a fight not even against Edo Madara. She wouldn't against Kakashi
5. Which she's not managing against Sharingan precog that could even dodge v1 A4 who Tsunade admitted herself she can't react to. Not to mention Lightning Clone feint


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> She can't heal from getting beheaded or halved by Raikiri kunai, Lightning Cable, or Kamui




If it were this easy madara would have done it. 



MaruUchiha said:


> I thought we were discussing Tsunade vs Kakashi not Katsuyu, besides Tsunade almost never summoned Katsuyu in a fight not even against Edo Madara. She wouldn't against Kakashi
> 4. I thought we were discussing Tsunade vs Kakashi not Katsuyu, besides Tsunade almost never summoned Katsuyu in a fight not even against Edo Madara. She wouldn't against Kakashi



Yet she uses it agaisnt armless Orochimaru in a two vs one



MaruUchiha said:


> Which she's not managing against Sharingan precog that could even dodge v1 A4 who Tsunade admitted herself she can't react to. Not to mention Lightning Clone feint



His same sharingan precog didn’t help him from being hit by Zabuza, so it’s not invincible. And tsunade has great speed feats of her own, this point is moot.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 23, 2019)

I believe Tsunade would win, though Kakashi would give her a fight


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> If it were this easy madara would have done it.


Uhh once Madara got serious he almost did half her..


Orochimaru op said:


> Yet she uses it agaisnt armless Orochimaru in a two vs one


Yea, the one time she summoned Katsuyu to fight in the entire series and it was only to match the other 2 Sanin deadlock summons. How you come to the conclusion that means she would use it against Kakashi when she didn't even against Edo Madara is beyond me


Orochimaru op said:


> His same sharingan precog didn’t help him from being hit by Zabuza


Scaling War Kakashi to Part 1 Kakashi?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 23, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> No, he was stabbed by someone who is not as skilled in hand-to-hand combat as Tsunade
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





Tsunade like her student, can only punch and she can kick. She has never shown any type of skilled taijutsu moves whatsoever.

She would be hardpressed landing a hit on Sharingan less Kakashi let alone Sharingan Kakashi.


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## Francyst (Jun 23, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Its the chakra that I'm talking about not


My point is Bee's boost is greater and he wasn't able to replicate what Lee did


SakuraLover16 said:


> When you quoted my post that said she didn't die but you only quoted that part.


I asked if "she didnt die" means keeping up to you then you deflected and compared her performance to her teammates... and here we are(wherever this is)


SakuraLover16 said:


> I feel like we just aren't understanding each other. If she is resilient enough to walk around with a destroyed spine she is resilient enough to tank lightning from a clone with few drawbacks.


The part about her spine is speculation. Hi no Ishi and Godaime made this up and everyone just ran with it.

Still, this dont support her being able to resist lightning at all. 


SakuraLover16 said:


> Thats the definitions I googled.


You said:


> *She shows *resistence *by not being adversely affected by the injuries she sustains.*


You're assuming the physical damage doesn't affect her when you see her pushing through.


SakuraLover16 said:


> I'm gonna seek out a temporary ban soon I hope. This section isn't what it used to be and it's my fault for coming back for more.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 23, 2019)

Francyst said:


> My point is Bee's boost is greater and he wasn't able to replicate what Lee


We don't know how much the boosts differ I don't think Bees has a number tied to it. So we can't really compare tge two.


Francyst said:


> I asked if "she didnt die" means keeping up to you then you deflected and compared her performance to her teammates... and here we are(wherever this is)


Well then the answer is yes considering that Madara was still attempting to kill them every chance he got.


Francyst said:


> The part about her spine is speculation. Hi no Ishi and Godaime made this up and everyone just ran with it.
> 
> Still, this dont support her being able to resist lightning at all.


From the looks of it. I can see why they are saying the spine has been impacted the blades are just as wide as her body.


Francyst said:


> You're assuming the physical damage doesn't affect her when you see her pushing through.


Physical damage does affect her but we see multiple times that it has little effect on her performance overall.

Also, it's not you it's me. I am just not good enough for you anymore


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Uhh once Madara got serious he almost did half her..




He bisected her and it still wasn’t enough, had she not had to heal the other kage she would have survived, and that’s without 1000 heals. Five madara wood clowns couldn’t behead her yet kakashi is supposed to be able to with raikiri?



MaruUchiha said:


> Yea, the one time she summoned Katsuyu to fight in the entire series and it was only to match the other 2 Sanin deadlock summons. How you come to the conclusion that means she would use it against Kakashi when she didn't even against Edo Madara is beyond me



We have been over this. Tsuande  did not summon katsuyu to match the other boss summons, she summoned katsuyu before any one else, you even conceded this fact, did you just forget?



MaruUchiha said:


> Scaling War Kakashi to Part 1 Kakashi




Still doesn’t explain the Zabuza thing.


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## Anime Zone (Jun 23, 2019)

Lol Tsunade wins mid difficulty at most.
There's no version of Kakashi outside of DMS that can pull out a win against Tsunade. 10/10 wins for Tsunade always.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 23, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Kakashi's only chance at Victory Is by means of kamui
> 
> 
> She can heal from any damage output from Kakashi
> ...



Katsuyu's power is directly proportional to Tsunade's Byakugo.
Lol. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Can't outlast Kakashi. Shoving Raikiri into head also grants win via unconsciousness/rapid nerve impulse devastation.



Lightning will kill liquid form. Raiden bisects faster than it can divide. Lightning can cause paralysis. Its power is directly proportional to Tsunade's Byakugo.
It can't keep firing acid spray nonstop. A clone can easily push Katsuyu back somewhere else or keep it at bay.
Lol. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Kakashi survived kick to stomach by Kakuzu, being blown through trees, plus wind blast. A very fatigued Kakashi survived a knee to the head from someone who KCM Naruto said was so strong, Tobi, who fairly easily tanked BM Naruto's headbutt. Kakashi shrugged off V2 Jinchuuriki's tail smack. Survived a Shinra Tensei at point blank.


 "One attack to win" - just stop. Besides, too slow to land effective hits.



Anime Zone said:


> Lol Tsunade wins mid difficulty at most.
> There's no version of Kakashi outside of DMS that can pull out a win against Tsunade. 10/10 wins for Tsunade always.


This is incorrect. WA Kakashi with Kamui can win with extremely low difficulty. If you don't think so, you need to read/re-read the War-Arc



Orochimaru op said:


> Still doesn’t explain the Zabuza thing.


What Zabuza thing? It was a lucky hit against a fatigued man who had an emotional trigger against an Elite Jonin who was wielding a big ass sword (to quote your description of it) and Kakashi was only using Raikiri which already stabbed through someone else, and even then it wasn't that big of a cut. Fatigued Kakashi blitzed Haku and Zabuza consecutively (with a minimally short gap) with only Raikiri. If they were so fast or so good, why did they get blitzed? Why did Haku not use his _amazing_ Body Flicker speed to tag Kakashi? Why didn't Zabuza use his _amazing_ mid-high diff-causing skill to tag Kakashi after he got one lucky hit which wasn't _that_ harmful? Kakashi was upset by how Zabuza and Haku were used for Akatsuki's purposes, thus he takes up the Kubikiribōchō and promises to live up to his reputation as the copier of a thousand jutsu and goes on a rampage!


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Katsuyu's power is directly proportional to Tsunade's Byakugo.



Not entirely, because otherwise tsuande would have never summoned katsuyu in the second Great War before she had 100 healings. Yet she was known to summon katsuyu for healing pre 100 healings. 



Mad Scientist said:


> Raiden bisects faster than it can divide. Lightning can cause paralysis. Its power is directly proportional to Tsunade's Byakugo.



Lightning cuts katsuyu and katsuyu just puts herself back together. Tsunade isn’t letting him run around forever cutting up katsuyu, not that it would ever do anything. 



Mad Scientist said:


> Kakashi survived kick to stomach by Kakuzu, being blown through trees, plus wind blast. A very fatigued Kakashi survived a knee to the head from someone who KCM Naruto said was so strong, Tobi, who fairly easily tanked BM Naruto's headbutt. Kakashi shrugged off V2 Jinchuuriki's tail smack. Survived a Shinra Tensei at point blank. "One attack to win" - just stop. Besides, too slow to land effective hits.



Unless kakashi is physically more durable then a madara susanoo, he gets oneshot. 



Mad Scientist said:


> What Zabuza thing? It was a lucky hit against a fatigued man who had an emotional trigger against an Elite Jonin who was wielding a big ass sword (to quote your description of it)



Sharingan precog should negate the surprised factor, and he didn’t look fatigued in the battles after this one. This lucky hit wouldn’t have happened to base Gai tbh. It happened, it’s stupid, but it happened, and kakashi isn’t faster the tsuande.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Not entirely, because otherwise tsuande would have never summoned katsuyu in the second Great War before she had 100 healings. Yet she was known to summon katsuyu for healing pre 100 healings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Disagree with much of what you said, but answer me this... What happens if a Raikiri is stuck in her head with Byakugo active?


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Disagree with much of what you said, but answer me this... What happens if a Raikiri is stuck in her head with Byakugo active?




Well tsunade says she can regen entire organs, and the brain is an organ, but it might be a special case because it’s the brain, so it’s up in the air.


Although if five madara wood clones can’t decapitate her or stab her in the head no way in hell is kakashi doing it


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Well tsunade says she can regen entire organs, and the brain is an organ, but it might be a special case because it’s the brain, so it’s up in the air.
> 
> 
> Although if five madara wood clones can’t decapitate her or stab her in the head no way in hell is kakashi doing it


You didn't answer the question. 

What happens if Raikiri is _in_ her head? 
What do you think happens to her central nervous system as the cells are being recreated?


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> You didn't answer the question.
> 
> What happens if Raikiri is _in_ her head?
> What do you think happens to her central nervous system as the cells are being recreated?



I genuinely don’t know really.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I genuinely don’t know really.



What do you think would happen if your brain cells had the power to be almost instantly regenerated via cell division upon damage, but an electric rod the size of your hand was shoved into your brain? What do you think would happen to the nearby _nerve _cells in contact with it? I'm not using headcanon either. Nervous transmission is a relevant factor in this manga and has been referred to already. If you want to know what _I_ think happens, feel free to ask - but I'm more interested in what you have to say at this time.


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> What do you think would happen if your brain cells had the power to be almost instantly regenerated via cell division upon damage, but an electric rod the size of your hand was shoved into your brain? What do you think would happen to the nearby _nerve _cells in contact with it? I'm not using headcanon either. Nervous transmission is a relevant factor in this manga and has been referred to already. If you want to know what _I_ think happens, feel free to ask - but I'm more interested in what you have to say at this time.




As I said I’m unsure, this is naruto land, weird shit happens all the time and this is a weird interaction.  As I said, I really don’t know.


Theoritcally her brain shouldn’t be able to send signals to regen, although her brain shouldn’t be in a state to send signals after being bisected due to shock of it, nor should she be alive or in a state to use chakra,

And when kabuto slashes Orochimaru’s throat out repeatedly, he should have long been dead due to shock and having basically no throat, yet he still she’s oral rebirth.

So as I said, it’s weird and idk


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## Jad (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> As I said I’m unsure, this is naruto land, weird shit happens all the time and this is a weird interaction.  As I said, I really don’t know.
> 
> 
> Theoritcally her brain shouldn’t be able to send signals to regen, although her brain shouldn’t be in a state to send signals after being bisected due to shock of it, nor should she be alive or in a state to use chakra,
> ...


Technically, IF she could regen her brain, she'd forget her entire life. The brain contains our memories and experiences.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Jad said:


> Technically, IF she could regen her brain, she'd forget her entire life. The brain contains our memories and experiences.



true. although Naruto, in general, can sometimes be super realistic and then batshit crazy fiction at the same time. hard to say.


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Well tsunade says she can regen entire organs, and the brain is an organ, but it might be a special case because it’s the brain, so it’s up in the air.
> 
> 
> Although if five madara wood clones can’t decapitate her or stab her in the head no way in hell is kakashi doing it


The wood clones were using sussanoo from the beginning... Have you seen a sussanoo big ass sword decapitate...plus kakashi is more subtle and cunning in his ways

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> As I said I’m unsure, this is naruto land, weird shit happens all the time and this is a weird interaction.  As I said, I really don’t know.
> 
> 
> Theoritcally her brain shouldn’t be able to send signals to regen, although her brain shouldn’t be in a state to send signals after being bisected due to shock of it, nor should she be alive or in a state to use chakra,
> ...


Orochimaru doesn't really feel shock like that. His jutsu is a bit weird, I agree, allowing him to almost seemingly bypass consciousness for a moment, but let's go back to Tsunade's brain.

Basically, if someone sticks a tiny electrode into your brain, your brain can do some really weird things. If an entire electrical object the size of a hand were to be stuck into someone's brain, obviously first there'd be blood etc., but the mass nervous transmissions would go absolutely wild and would completely destroy a person's ability to function, much less stay conscious. The electricity would keep ripping the brain cells even if cell division kept continuing and would constantly send the victim's body into chaotic shock. Very gruesome, but that's what would happen. I honestly do not believe an in-character Kakashi would do that, but the same thing could be said for the heart, and he wouldn't be afraid of that. Tsunade still feels pain, and she wouldn't be able to handle that kind of pain and simultaneously escape by herself. The heart would try to recover but the cells keep dying due to the electricity of Raikiri.

Furthermore, the more she needs to use the power of her Byakugo to survive, the faster its capacity will drain.


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Orochimaru doesn't really feel shock like that. His jutsu is a bit weird, I agree, allowing him to almost seemingly bypass consciousness for a moment, but let's go back to Tsunade's brain.
> 
> Basically, if someone sticks a tiny electrode into your brain, your brain can do some really weird things. If an entire electrical object the size of a hand were to be stuck into someone's brain, obviously first there'd be blood etc., but the mass nervous transmissions would go absolutely wild and would completely destroy a person's ability to function, much less stay conscious. The electricity would keep ripping the brain cells even if cell division kept continuing and would constantly send the victim's body into chaotic shock. Very gruesome, but that's what would happen. I honestly do not believe an in-character Kakashi would do that, but the same thing could be said for the heart, and he wouldn't be afraid of that. Tsunade still feels pain, and she wouldn't be able to handle that kind of pain and simultaneously escape by herself. The heart would try to recover but the cells keep dying due to the electricity of Raikiri.
> 
> Furthermore, the more she needs to use the power of her Byakugo to survive, the faster its capacity will drain.




I don’t think she needs to do anything for her heals though, the pain is irrelevant as it’s not dependant on tsunade, it’s auto. I we also have seen tsunade tank things that are still in her body and move around fine without the regen which is again, weird. If kakashi stabs her brain, she’ll probably fall limp, although the real question is if her 100 healings will heal the brain. 


Going off of what tsunade says, she says she can heal organs and that she’s basically unkillable. The latter is obvious hyperbole, but she probably said it in regards to what she knew could happen to her. She probably had thought of the stab the head work around, yet still feels as though she’s nigh immortal. I doubt she’d be treating it as the I cant die card if there was such a simple workaround, but scientifically it wouldn’t really make sense.

Although scientifically her 100 healings makes no sense at all either.

I just don’t know.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> The wood clones were using sussanoo from the beginning... Have you seen a sussanoo big ass sword decapitate...plus kakashi is more subtle and cunning in his ways




What stopped madara from just splitting her in half from the middle. Or stabbing her in the head with a giant sword. It was a five on one gangbang and she still didn’t get her stabbed. Why is kakashi different? It’s not like he exerts more pressure then five madara wood clones with susanoo.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I don’t think she needs to do anything for her heals though, the pain is irrelevant as it’s not dependant on tsunade, it’s auto. I we also have seen tsunade tank things that are still in her body and move around fine without the regen which is again, weird. If kakashi stabs her brain, she’ll probably fall limp, although the real question is if her 100 healings will heal the brain.
> 
> Going off of what tsunade says, she says she can heal organs and that she’s basically unkillable. The latter is obvious hyperbole, but she probably said it in regards to what she knew could happen to her. She probably had thought of the stab the head work around, yet still feels as though she’s nigh immortal. I doubt she’d be treating it as the I cant die card if there was such a simple workaround, but scientifically it wouldn’t really make sense.
> 
> ...


Brain probably healed since released sealing marks cover body and skin etc. (i.e. more like a chakra shroud) recovered almost instantly. But as it heals, it can't physically consume the hand. Since her brain would be healed, she in fact wouldn't die, and technically, everything she said would remain true. Of course she'd suffer memory/conscious issues as soon as she wakes up (unless the brain cells recover the exact same cells, which I think they don't).

Pain is definitely relevant. If a Raikiri is blitzed across her, she will feel this pain stronger than, say, if it were just passed through her heart. Similarly, if the Raikiri remains _in_ her heart, this will be even more pain as it'd be a constant influx of electric shock damage.


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## Symmetry (Jun 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Brain probably healed since released sealing marks cover body and skin etc. recovered almost instantly. But as it heals, it can't physically consume the hand. Since her brain would be healed, she in fact wouldn't die, and technically, everything she said would remain true. Of course she'd suffer memory/conscious issues as soon as she wakes up (unless the brain cells recover the exact same cells, which I think they don't).
> 
> Pain is definitely relevant. If a Raikiri is blitzed across her, she will feel this pain stronger than, say, if it were just passed through her heart. Similarly, if the Raikiri remains _in_ her heart, this will be even more pain as it'd be a constant influx of electric shock damage.




However said pain won’t stop her from healing, it’ll just piss her off when she’s done healing.

Also in cell division are you not just creating exact replicas of old cells. Which would mean the same cells as her previous brain, thus giving her memories back? And does chakra help this? I don’t even know anymore man, I love tsunade but I’m not a medical expert


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 23, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> However said pain won’t stop her from healing, it’ll just piss her off when she’s done healing.
> 
> Also in cell division are you not just creating exact replicas of old cells. Which would mean the same cells as her previous brain, thus giving her memories back? And does chakra help this? I don’t even know anymore man, I love tsunade but I’m not a medical expert


Pain could make her go unconscious or into shock. Look at what mental fatigue did to Kakashi during Tsukuyomi. The cell division is from the tissues around the damaged organs/tissues. Creation Rebirth does not repair the old cells, instead it  hastens the creation of new ones through division. Because a body's cells can only split a certain number of times, the user shortens their natural lifespan whenever this technique is used. This means that the cells are in fact new ones (and thus different ones). Chakra only helps in terms of how long she can keep up the technique.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Pain could make her go unconscious or into shock.


I kind of doubt this would be the case considering everything we have seen her go through. 


Mad Scientist said:


> . Creation Rebirth does not repair the old cells, instead it hastens the creation of new ones through division. Because a body's cells can only split a certain number of times, the user shortens their natural lifespan whenever this technique is used. This means that the cells are in fact new ones (and thus different ones). Chakra only helps in terms of how long she can keep up the technique.


The cells are both new and old at the same time. The new cells you speak of are the result of replication. The single cell is split in two creating two identical daughter cells. Each cell contains all genetic information. I imagine that while mitosis is happening other parts of the body will be hard at work too such as proteins and enzymes. Lysosomes would also have to clear the destroyed cells as well and because of all the injuries she sustained before her immune system must also speed up in order for her not to become sick because of bacteria. Chakra seems to contain the essence of people as seen with Minato, Kushina, and Obito so that may also jelp her as well.


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## Symmetry (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Pain could make her go unconscious or into shock. Look at what mental fatigue did to Kakashi during Tsukuyomi. The cell division is from the tissues around the damaged organs/tissues. Creation Rebirth does not repair the old cells, instead it  hastens the creation of new ones through division. Because a body's cells can only split a certain number of times, the user shortens their natural lifespan whenever this technique is used. This means that the cells are in fact new ones (and thus different ones). Chakra only helps in terms of how long she can keep up the technique.




Yes they are new cells, but I’m pretty sure they are exact copies of the old ones. Although that might only happen though aptosis and not necrosis, I haven’t taken biology in a looooong time. Also tsunade has experienced some painful attacks before, what with having two susanoo swords stuck inside her as she moves around casually. That was also part one kakashi, he’s basically fodder compared to WA tsunade


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I kind of doubt this would be the case considering everything we have seen her go through.
> 
> The cells are both new and old at the same time. The new cells you speak of are the result of replication. The single cell is split in two creating two identical daughter cells. Each cell contains all genetic information. I imagine that while mitosis is happening other parts of the body will be hard at work too such as proteins and enzymes. Lysosomes would also have to clear the destroyed cells as well and because of all the injuries she sustained before her immune system must also speed up in order for her not to become sick because of bacteria. Chakra seems to contain the essence of people as seen with Minato, Kushina, and Obito so that may also jelp her as well.





Orochimaru op said:


> Yes they are new cells, but I’m pretty sure they are exact copies of the old ones. Although that might only happen though aptosis and not necrosis, I haven’t taken biology in a looooong time. Also tsunade has experienced some painful attacks before, what with having two susanoo swords stuck inside her as she moves around casually. That was also part one kakashi, he’s basically fodder compared to WA tsunade


P1 Kakashi isn't fodder when you consider what Kabuto did to Tsunade and when you consider his portrayal.

The divided cells cannot be exact copies of the old ones because the old ones die due to external damage (i.e. Raikiri, Susanoo blades) and cell division occurs from the _surrounding cells _(hence division). Another indicator that they're new is that the telomeres would be shorter - that's how she actually gets "older". Both aptosis and necrosis are internal operations, whereas Raikiri is external destruction. The Susanoo swords weren't in a place that would be as impacting, nor for as long, nor as large. Raikiri, on the other hand, could remain suspended in her heart and slowly dredged around causing unbelievable amounts of pain that no adrenalin rush would prevent, not to mention the nerve impulses going crazy.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> P1 Kakashi isn't fodder when you consider what Kabuto did to Tsunade and when you consider his portrayal.
> .



Blood phobia Rusty Tsunade?


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Blood phobia Rusty Tsunade?


Refute my 6 points.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Refute my 6 points.



I qouted what I qouted to remind you that it was blood phobia rusty Tsunade. Anything that Kabuto could accomplish against Tsunade at this time is highly irrelevant


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I qouted what I qouted to remind you that it was blood phobia rusty Tsunade. Anything that Kabuto could accomplish against Tsunade at this time is highly irrelevant


You got 8 likes for your 6 points which I easily refuted. Please refute my 6 points. And no Kabuto's feats aren't exactly irrelevant lol. Kabuto is an Elite Jonin with special talents, and was Orochimaru's partner - don't forget that.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> You got 8 likes for your 6 points which I easily refuted. Please refute my 6 points. And no Kabuto's feats aren't exactly irrelevant lol. Kabuto is an Elite Jonin with special talents, and was Orochimaru's partner - don't forget that.



Stay on context here. I was specifically pointing how Tsunade, and using that to help gauge Kabuto's level and thus P1 Kakashi. Anything concerning Blood Phobia Rusty Tsunade is irrelevant.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> P1 Kakashi isn't fodder when you consider what Kabuto did to Tsunade and when you consider his portrayal.


That is a rusty Tsunade twenty years out of practice with a blood phobia. Kabuto still couldn't defeat her after taking a soldier pill finally using his blood he complemented her power throughout the fight as well. Tsunade was still powerful ileven in that state.


Mad Scientist said:


> The divided cells cannot be exact copies of the old ones because the old ones die due to external damage (i.e. Raikiri, Susanoo blades) and cell division occurs from the _surrounding cells _(hence division).


The surrounding cells still have the information that the destroyed cells did in fact all cells have the exact same DNA in their nucleus the only cells that don't follow this rule are gametes and blood cells. Gametes contain half and blood cells have no nucleus. The cells are technically 'new' because they are now two xopies instead of one.


Mad Scientist said:


> The Susanoo swords weren't in a place that would be as impacting, nor for as long, nor as large. Raikiri, on the other hand, could remain suspended in her heart and slowly dredged around causing unbelievable amounts of pain that no adrenalin rush would prevent, not to mention the nerve impulses going crazy.


The Susanoo clone swords are all that you describe they aren't.


The blades wiuld be cutting things like the spine, stomach, pancreas, colon and maybe kidneys. If Raikiri is used then it would already go through her whole body as it pierced. The technique is mainly used for piercing and its secondary use is cutting. The technique would not be doing anything to her electrical impulses. Plus if Tsunade can move around with shredded organs pain isn't going to be a problem.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Stay on context here. I was specifically pointing how Tsunade, and using that to help gauge Kabuto's level and thus P1 Kakashi. Anything concerning Blood Phobia Rusty Tsunade is irrelevant.


I will keep disagreeing with this, so there's no point continuing down this branch. Instead, refute my 6 points.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I will keep disagreeing with this, so there's no point continuing down this branch. Instead, refute my 6 points.



Just concede that using blood phobia rusty tsunade as reasons was wrong and I will refute the rest.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> That is a rusty Tsunade twenty years out of practice with a blood phobia. Kabuto still couldn't defeat her after taking a soldier pill finally using his blood he complemented her power throughout the fight as well. Tsunade was still powerful ileven in that state.
> 
> The surrounding cells still have the information that the destroyed cells did in fact all cells have the exact same DNA in their nucleus the only cells that don't follow this rule are gametes and blood cells. Gametes contain half and blood cells have no nucleus. The cells are technically 'new' because they are now two xopies instead of one.
> 
> ...


1. The technique is electrical. It would definitely have an impact on the nerves.
2. The Susanoo is how I described it at least in the sense it was only stabbed through her momentarily.
3. I'm not claiming that the bodily cells don't have the same information, I am saying they are new in that they are literally new cells with shorter telomeres hence the aging though...
4. ...The brain works differently. If a chunk of the brain was ripped out, you can be sure the surrounding cells of the hole's perimeter didn't have the same info as the destroyed ones.



Shazam said:


> Just concede that using blood phobia rusty tsunade as reasons was wrong and I will refute the rest.


Fine. At this moment in time, in order to further the debate, I concede.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> 1. The technique is electrical. It would definitely have an impact on the nerves.
> 2. The Susanoo is how I described it at least in the sense it was only stabbed through her momentarily.
> 3. I'm not claiming that the bodily cells don't have the same information, I am saying they are new in that they are literally new cells with shorter telomeres hence the aging though...
> 4. ...The brain works differently. If a chunk of the brain was ripped out, you can be sure the surrounding cells of the hole's perimeter didn't have the same info as the destroyed ones.
> ...



which page are you 6 points located? Link it


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> which page are you 6 points located? Link it


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> 1. The technique is electrical. It would definitely have an impact on the nerves.


The technique is electrical but there is no mention of electricution being one of its effects. It is said to pierce. That is its main use if I'm not mistake Deidara and the Raikage were hit with similar technique. The Raikage only showed surprise that it got through his armor and his armor doesn't electricute those who touch it either if that was the case then Ohnoki wouldn't have backpacked him.


Mad Scientist said:


> The Susanoo is how I described it at least in the sense it was only stabbed through her momentarily.


Those blades were stuck in their until she pulled them out and she was still able to move with them in. Those blades are also eay bigger than Kakashi's hand therefore they did more damage to the tissue it touched because of the wider surface area.


Mad Scientist said:


> 3. I'm not claiming that the bodily cells don't have the same information, I am saying they are new in that they are literally new cells with shorter telomeres hence the aging.


But they are still new because they divided into two seperate cells. I'm not worried about the aging part my point is that they are still technically new.


Mad Scientist said:


> The brain works differently. If a chunk of the brain was ripped out, you can be sure the surrounding cells of the hole's perimeter didn't have the same info as the destroyed ones.


It would be different if a whole section was completely destroyed but as long as there are cells the area will be fixed. Also the chakra holds a ninja's sense of who they are. Their souls basically so the function would not be a problem considering she has done other things that are out of scope for normal people all the time.


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## Ishmael (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> She can heal from any damage output from Kakashi



Hmmm this is true, she could heal from most but it doesn't take from the impact it would have on her body. Raikiri anywhere vital, especially a head shot will kill Tsunade, for one she doesn't start with her seal active so that's a problem itself that many posters come in and try to use. 

It'll wear her down, that's the goal with her or to end her before the seal comes into play, kakashi has the trickery and dangerous techs to do it. 



Shazam said:


> She will last longer in battle



In terms of stamina she is> but it doesn't matter when the other has tools that make her stamina a non factor. A lot of techs will handicap her and set kakashi up for a more clear path to victory. 



Shazam said:


> Kakashi cannot kill off Katsuyu



Doesn't need to, what makes you think she'll summon katsuyu just to fight kakashi. If she can heal from anything as you claim and will start her fight with the seal active to do so why is katsuyu needed?

We've seen katsuyu summoned against another summon and then as support in other cases, never in a combat means against human opponents. No combat against pein, not even considered until madara left her and the kage to die and didn't come out until all sannin decided to use their summons in part 1. 



Shazam said:


> Acid spray will be something Kakashi will have to constantly avoid or he will die



A big ass summon negged it from point blank range, it has no speed feats that indicates it'll one shot or even catch kakashi who isn't slow. This is a non factor and doton wall, the mole tech he has and kakashi simply getting out of harms way will ensure this. 



Shazam said:


> Tsunade only has to land one attack to win



False again, she's not one shotting him, he has tools that counter her fighting style and is far more dangerous in cqc outside of the strength that makes you all rate Tsunade high. 




Shazam said:


> Kakashi's only chance at Victory Is by means of kamui



That's one of them* kamui does play a vital part in him winning if he chooses to shoot for it against her. Sniping a limb or two will get him a dub, it'll hinder her performance and cause strain on her to heal the injury of a limb being snatched.


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## Ishmael (Jun 24, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> but instead using raiton to cut, which while if Kakashi removed a limb wouldn't kill Tsunade, would give him an opening to kill her



This is what many don't understand, he isn't going to use these things to one shot KO but to set up a kill or sum, kakashi is the most tactical ninja in the verse, it's very IC for a guy like this to do something like this.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Katsuyu's power is directly proportional to Tsunade's Byakugo.



 
Only in terms of Katsuyu's remote healing as shown in the WA in chapter 634. The fact that Tsuande could heal entire villages before being completely wasted means she'll have more than enough for just herself in battle.
​


Mad Scientist said:


> Lol.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




This is an assumption. My point was in terms of stamina and healing, Tsunade would win in a battle of attrition as well.

​


Mad Scientist said:


> Lightning will kill liquid form. Raiden bisects faster than it can divide. Lightning can cause paralysis. Its power is directly proportional to Tsunade's Byakugo.




Katsuyu wont be affected, she herself can deconstruct her body into a liquid state and then form back together. 

​


Mad Scientist said:


> It can't keep firing acid spray nonstop. A clone can easily push Katsuyu back somewhere else or keep it at bay.





Highly optimistic considering Kakashi can only use up to 3-4 clones max and his stamina is already sub-par for kage levels meaning his real self would drastically weaken in his fight against Tsunade and the clone wouldn't have enough fire power to fend off a Boss Summon that he cant kill for long

​


Mad Scientist said:


> Lol.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




So you think Kakashi can survive a full power punch from Tsunade? 

There is no reason to think Tsunade is slow. Unless you still think Kakashi is faster than KCM Naruto LOLOLOLOL


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## Ishmael (Jun 24, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Even the best Tsunade posters
> @Suu and @Godaime Tsunade





Orochimaru op said:


> Not me, I still think tsuande wins. Kakashi puts up a great fight though





Santoryu said:


> *Even the best Tsunade posters*
> @Suu and @Godaime Tsunade





Santoryu said:


> *Tsunade*




Dude has orochimaru in his name and "OP" is the follow up.


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## Ishmael (Jun 24, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Tsunade punches the ground



you got 3 agrees lol. 

1. How are you just willing to give her full knowledge on his abilities?

2. She doesn't know Tsunade has this technique... so why would she just know to hit the ground?

3. This tech worked and even caught itachi who has higher analytical ability than her so what makes you think it won't catch her?


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> The technique is electrical but there is no mention of electricution being one of its effects. It is said to pierce. That is its main use if I'm not mistake Deidara and the Raikage were hit with similar technique. The Raikage only showed surprise that it got through his armor and his armor doesn't electricute those who touch it either if that was the case then Ohnoki wouldn't have backpacked him.


*That is a largely incorrect assessment.*  to a . While it has brilliant piercing power due to this, , this despite there visibly not being much electricity running through the sword. As for Ōnoki, a number of viable explanations exist: Raikage's RCM1 shroud may not have had as much electric potential as would be present in a concentrated Raikiri, for instance; Ōnoki's only job was to hang on, lighten him, and keep on the look out - it's entirely plausible Ōnoki reduced the shroud's impact on himself through chakra control (in Kakashi's Story, a heavily fatigued Kakashi used this chakra mechanic to warm his blood and keep himself from being frozen by the Ice Jutsu, though this rendered him incapable of using any other Jutsu); Chidori, for instance, is not shown to harm the _user_ as much as it harms the _enemy_ - the same exact thing could _very well_ be happening in A-Ōnoki's case where it isn't shown to electrocute/harm _him (_or _them_ as they were effectively "one"), .



SakuraLover16 said:


> Those blades were stuck in their until she pulled them out and she was still able to move with them in. Those blades are also eay bigger than Kakashi's hand therefore they did more damage to the tissue it touched because of the wider surface area.


She was in a desperate situation with Byakugo support _and_ it only lasted for a _very_ short amount of time because she _was able to_ remove it. It's not about those blades being bigger than Kakashi's hands when a fatigued Kakashi is capable of doing to someone who has Hashirama Senju's DNA. It's about whether he lands a Raikiri _in_ a vital organ such as the heart or a brain _and/or_ in doing so just completely wears her Byakugo reserves out. This doesn't even cover the pain aspect either which would be present either in the event he blasts a hole through her (like to Obito) or if he utilises a cutting motion - it is called "Lightning Cutter" for a reason, a technique which even cut through lighting itself.





SakuraLover16 said:


> But they are still new because they divided into two seperate cells. I'm not worried about the aging part my point is that they are still technically new.


I don't disagree with _that_. *I disagree with the brain part* which is the most complex organ where almost every subsection is different. By the way, I'm not saying she _can't_ regenerate her brain - I'm saying a *Raikiri* _in her head _would produce such *volatile nervous reactions *that it would make her go *limp or unconscious within a matter of seconds*. Byakugo would still be active most likely as far as I'm aware (unless a head shot affected the seal), and she _would_ recover her brain (seeing as how multiple other somewhat unconnected organs, you mentioned, with differing tissues were regenerated as well).



SakuraLover16 said:


> It would be different if a whole section was completely destroyed but as long as there are cells the area will be fixed. Also the chakra holds a ninja's sense of who they are. Their souls basically so the function would not be a problem considering she has done other things that are out of scope for normal people all the time.


Considering what Kakashi's Raikiri Kunai stab did, it would completely destroy a huge section of her brain and even potentially interfere with the seal. If Chakra _alone_ was enough to hold a ninja's sense of who they were, I don't see what the purpose of the brain's function in controlling memories would be - that example of "souls" is extremely ambiguous and even Edo Tensei required people's bodies to match. Finally, just because she's done things out of scope for normal people doesn't mean she can do _anything_ out of scope; . I've also confirmed this with Turrin, who was kind enough to double-check the translation.



Samael said:


> Hmmm this is true, she could heal from most but it doesn't take from the impact it would have on her body. Raikiri anywhere vital, especially a head shot will kill Tsunade, for one she doesn't start with her seal active so that's a problem itself that many posters come in and try to use.
> 
> It'll wear her down, that's the goal with her or to end her before the seal comes into play, kakashi has the trickery and dangerous techs to do it.
> 
> ...



Winner post. The only thing I disagree strongly with is Tsunade having more stamina than Kakashi. Kakashi's stamina almost certainly reached a 5 by the WA because he mastered his sharingan. Great post, though.


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 24, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> What stopped madara from just splitting her in half from the middle. Or stabbing her in the head with a giant sword. It was a five on one gangbang and she still didn’t get her stabbed. Why is kakashi different? It’s not like he exerts more pressure then five madara wood clones with susanoo.


You realize madara was just getting war


Mad Scientist said:


> *That is a largely incorrect assessment.*  to a . While it has brilliant piercing power due to this, , this despite there visibly not being much electricity running through the sword. As for Ōnoki, a number of viable explanations exist: Raikage's RCM1 shroud may not have had as much electric potential as would be present in a concentrated Raikiri, for instance; Ōnoki's only job was to hang on, lighten him, and keep on the look out - it's entirely plausible Ōnoki reduced the shroud's impact on himself through chakra control (in Kakashi's Story, a heavily fatigued Kakashi used this chakra mechanic to warm his blood and keep himself from being frozen by the Ice Jutsu, though this rendered him incapable of using any other Jutsu); Chidori, for instance, is not shown to harm the _user_ as much as it harms the _enemy_ - the same exact thing could _very well_ be happening in A-Ōnoki's case where it isn't shown to electrocute/harm _him (_or _them_ as they were effectively "one"), .
> 
> 
> She was in a desperate situation with Byakugo support _and_ it only lasted for a _very_ short amount of time because she _was able to_ remove it. It's not about those blades being bigger than Kakashi's hands when a fatigued Kakashi is capable of doing to someone who has Hashirama Senju's DNA. It's about whether he lands a Raikiri _in_ a vital organ such as the heart or a brain _and/or_ in doing so just completely wears her Byakugo reserves out. This doesn't even cover the pain aspect either which would be present either in the event he blasts a hole through her (like to Obito) or if he utilises a cutting motion - it is called "Lightning Cutter" for a reason, a technique which even cut through lighting itself.
> ...


What is your theory on Dismembering byakugo seal users... Can they regrow entire limbs.... What if the whole heart is blown away?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> You realize madara was just getting war
> 
> What is your theory on Dismembering byakugo seal users... Can they regrow entire limbs.... What if the whole heart is blown away?


By all accounts, the heart would definitely recover as long as Byakugo is active and isn't depleted of its chakra reserve. Yes, Byakugo users can re-grow limbs too (given that Tsunade's pancreas, intestines, stomach etc., organs much more complex than limbs, had recovered and given the databook and huge cost to use the jutsu).


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> By all accounts, the heart would definitely recover as long as Byakugo is active and isn't depleted of its chakra reserve. Yes, Byakugo users can re-grow limbs too (given that Tsunade's pancreas, intestines, stomach etc. recovered and given the databook and huge cost to use the jutsu).


Those you mentioned are organs.. 
Look at this analogy.... Kakashi uses a lightning line to split her half, sends one half to the kamui dimension... Is she going to like create a new upper /Lower half depending on which one kakashi sends away 
She was able to survive madara's assault because her upper and lower half were in reach and there was no standing threat left.... In a 1v1 battle against kakashi which is to the death... If she gets her arm chopped off... I'm not sure she can grow a new one


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Those you mentioned are organs..
> Look at this analogy.... Kakashi uses a lightning line to split her half, sends one half to the kamui dimension... Is she going to like create a new upper /Lower half depending on which one kakashi sends away
> She was able to survive madara's assault because her upper and lower half were in reach and there was no standing threat left.... In a 1v1 battle against kakashi which is to the death... If she gets her arm chopped off... I'm not sure she can grow a new one


If Kakashi splits her in half, she will likely lose consciousness due to what happens to the brain (I think her body would start recovering immediately, but it's possible it doesn't if the seal is affected). If she gets her arm chopped off, I doubt she _can't_ recover it. In the end, it's a little ambiguous but if I _had_ to say which one, I'd definitely go for she can recover a limb. She already recovered complex organs and still had fighting power and Byakugo reserves left.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> *That is a largely incorrect assessment.*  to a . While it has brilliant piercing power due to this, ,





Mad Scientist said:


> this despite there visibly not being much electricity running through the sword. As for Ōnoki, a number of viable explanations exist: Raikage's RCM1 shroud may not have had as much electric potential as would be present in a concentrated Raikiri, for instance; Ōnoki's only job was to hang on, lighten him, and keep on the look out - it's entirely plausible Ōnoki reduced the shroud's impact on himself through chakra control (in Kakashi's Story, a heavily fatigued Kakashi used this chakra mechanic to warm his blood and keep himself from being frozen by the Ice Jutsu, though this rendered him incapable of using any other Jutsu); Chidori, for instance, is not shown to harm the _user_ as much as it harms the _enemy_ - the same exact thing could _very well_ be happening in A-Ōnoki's case where it isn't shown to electrocute/harm _him (_or _them_ as they were effectively "one"), .


Except those aren't the same techniques. There is nothing that states or implies that Raikiri also paralyses. The technique consists of sending a large amount of chakra to the hand for piercing. Also being lightning chakra that is condensed and thick enough to double as armor it is likely that it has way more electrical potential than Raikiri. So why wouldn't it electrocute Ohnoki. Chidori and Raikiri are also basically the same jutsu as well they just have different names. Also if it had that affect why is it that when the Raikage was hit with chidori why wasn't he paralysed? It is not a fact that Ohnoki was channeling chakra to lessen the effects of the armor it is merely an *assumption made to prove a point.* 


Mad Scientist said:


> She was in a desperate situation with Byakugo support _and_ it only lasted for a _very_ short amount of time because she _was able to_ remove it. It's not about those blades being bigger than Kakashi's hands when a fatigued Kakashi is capable of doing to someone who has Hashirama Senju's DNA. It's about whether he lands a Raikiri _in_ a vital organ such as the heart or a brain _and/or_ in doing so just completely wears her Byakugo reserves out. This doesn't even cover the pain aspect either which would be present either in the event he blasts a hole through her (like to Obito) or if he utilises a cutting motion - it is called "Lightning Cutter" for a reason, a technique which even cut through lighting itself.


My point is not durability it is her ability to effectively heal all of her organs. She had Byakugo active for hours and during that time she provided chakra, healed, and healed herself. She was even able to massively boost Ohnoki's jinton. Madara even said the Kage would have died long ago without her. She was able to save a village worth of lives using her chakra. A hit to a vital organ is not draining all of her reserves especially if she is only using them for herself. Tsunade has dealt with pain and injuries that would leave anyone else incapacitated. Also what makes gou think he is putting a large hole in her without her blowing a hole in his torso. The blade Kusanagi couldn't even cut into her completely and it was hurting Enma in staff form.


Mad Scientist said:


> I don't disagree with _that_. *I disagree with the brain part* which is the most complex organ where almost every subsection is different. By the way, I'm not saying she _can't_ regenerate her brain - I'm saying a *Raikiri* _in her head _would produce such *volatile nervous reactions *that it would make her go *limp or unconscious within a matter of seconds*. Byakugo would still be active most likely as far as I'm aware (unless a head shot affected the seal), and she _would_ recover her brain (seeing as how multiple other somewhat unconnected organs, you mentioned, with differing tissues were regenerated as well).


I disagree with your assumption that Raikiri would leave her incapacitated because it hasn't been said or shown to shock anyone before its ability to pierce and its speed have been highlighted but not discharge. Aiming for her seal would do absolutely nothing considering that all of the chakra that was in the seal is released into the body and only returns to that spot when the user wishes. Also him aiming there will leave him counter attacked.


Mad Scientist said:


> Considering what Kakashi's Raikiri Kunai stab did, it would completely destroy a huge section of her brain and even potentially interfere with the seal. If Chakra _alone_ was enough to hold a ninja's sense of who they were, I don't see what the purpose of the brain's function in controlling memories would be - that example of "souls" is extremely ambiguous and even Edo Tensei required people's bodies to match. Finally, just because she's done things out of scope for normal people doesn't mean she can do _anything_ out of scope; . I've also confirmed this with Turrin, who was kind enough to double-check the translation.


Edo tensei requires bodies yes but the edo tensei themselves have no brain. If the brain was all that mattered Minato and Kushina would have never been able to contact Naruto. I have already addressed the seal part. Kakashi would only affect whatever his hand touched before he is killed by a counter attack. That scan says she can heal the injury in an instant unless grave meaning she would still heal just not instantly. @AmitDS is also a translator I believe and I have spoke to them before as well. 

My main problem stems from the fact that people believe that Kakashi would get a clean shot to the brain without being killed himself. People argue that he isn't going to sit still and let her punch him then why is she sitting still to get a kunai or hand through the brain? If Madara couldn't do it how is Kakashi?


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## Symmetry (Jun 24, 2019)

Samael said:


> you got 3 agrees lol.
> 
> 1. How are you just willing to give her full knowledge on his abilities?
> 
> ...




I had read form a poster that tsunade displayed the ability to hear heartbeats from far away, so this should apply to Kakashi being underground. There’s also the matter of if he can get underground, which depends on location. And didn’t BOS Sakura figure out his hiding in the ground jutsu or was that anime only?


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 24, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I had read form a poster that tsunade displayed the ability to hear heartbeats from far away, so this should apply to Kakashi being underground. There’s also the matter of if he can get underground, which depends on location. And didn’t BOS Sakura figure out his hiding in the ground jutsu or was that anime only?


I think the only reason sakura found out his hiding in the ground jutsu was because she had no other option than to hit the ground really hard since she could not hit him....sakura can only get a clean hit vs jublings in a 1v1... But fighting an actual opponent 1v1 gives her issues


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> If Kakashi splits her in half, she will likely lose consciousness due to what happens to the brain (I think her body would start recovering immediately, but it's possible it doesn't if the seal is affected). If she gets her arm chopped off, I doubt she _can't_ recover it. In the end, it's a little ambiguous but if I _had_ to say which one, I'd definitely go for she can recover a limb. She already recovered complex organs and still had fighting power and Byakugo reserves left.


I'm not sure what the limit of the seal is but its going to be wierd if it grants the ability to regrow whole limbs


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## Ishmael (Jun 24, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I had read form a poster that tsunade displayed the ability to hear heartbeats from far away



....this is not a gossip forum, show me a scan that actually shows this or keep the he say, she say out of arguments. 



Orochimaru op said:


> There’s also the matter of if he can get underground, which depends on location.



K.



Orochimaru op said:


> And didn’t BOS Sakura figure out his hiding in the ground jutsu or was that anime only?



It's up to you to find this out and present it to me, otherwise there's no counter here honestly to what I said.



Samael said:


> you got 3 agrees lol.
> 
> 1. How are you just willing to give her full knowledge on his abilities?
> 
> ...



This all stands, you Tsunade supporters have a habit of giving her the benefit of the doubt, she doesn't know all of kakashis arsenal and it's safe to say she only knows the basics. He's a man of 1000 justu so yeah she's not going to just assume to punch the ground when he goes missing. 

And what's even more crucial is if when she goes for the punch will it already be to late.


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## Ishmael (Jun 24, 2019)

I'm not one for benefit of the doubt arguments and you got the wrong poster if you think I'm willing to give Tsunade of all characters breathing room. When she's wanked beyond no end and placed against one of the most underrated and versatile characters in the verse.

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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Except those aren't the same techniques. There is nothing that states or implies that Raikiri also paralyses. The technique consists of sending a large amount of chakra to the hand for piercing. Also being lightning chakra that is condensed and thick enough to double as armor it is likely that it has way more electrical potential than Raikiri. So why wouldn't it electrocute Ohnoki. Chidori and Raikiri are also basically the same jutsu as well they just have different names. Also if it had that affect why is it that when the Raikage was hit with chidori why wasn't he paralysed? It is not a fact that Ohnoki was channeling chakra to lessen the effects of the armor it is merely an *assumption made to prove a point.*


It doesn't matter if they're the same exact techniques (and *actually Chidori is fundamentally Raikiri*) - they're of the same lighting nature and it's clear lightning nature is essentially electricity (look at its numbing properties and electricity SFX). So you are *very* wrong to suggest Raikiri can't paralyse (despite what happened to Yamato with a seemingly smaller current). Let me ask _you_ a question. Why doesn't it electrocute Raikage? It clearly even travels through his nervous system, as stated by the DB, so why doesn't it electrocute Raikage? Why doesn't it electrocute Sasuke? Why doesn't it electrocute Madara? Why doesn't it electrocute Onoki? Please read my three reasons again, as you're pondering these questions. Raikage wasn't paralysed against Sasuke because he himself used Raiton as well. It hardly even pierced him either. It's as simple as that. I didn't actually say Onoki _did_ use chakra in that manner, but if you're suggesting Raikage's Raiton shroud electrocutes people it touches (when it clearly doesn't), _then_ I have three reasons in store for you (including that, of which I outlined earlier). Raikage's Raiton shroud doesn't consume _that_ much chakra, otherwise yes, he _would_ be electrocuting people and possible himself too - also think about this - if he can sustain it for extensive periods of time, it mustn't require _that_ much chakra. If you're wondering why Raikiri/Chidori can numb and paralyse people (depending on how it's used), that's because its electrical concentration and power is much higher (or can be raised higher) than RCM. 



SakuraLover16 said:


> My point is not durability it is her ability to effectively heal all of her organs. She had Byakugo active for hours and during that time she provided chakra, healed, and healed herself. She was even able to massively boost Ohnoki's jinton. Madara even said the Kage would have died long ago without her. She was able to save a village worth of lives using her chakra. A hit to a vital organ is not draining all of her reserves especially if she is only using them for herself. Tsunade has dealt with pain and injuries that would leave anyone else incapacitated. Also what makes gou think he is putting a large hole in her without her blowing a hole in his torso. The blade Kusanagi couldn't even cut into her completely and it was hurting Enma in staff form.


You don't understand. I'm not saying she can't recover her physical organs and tissue structure or that she doesn't have a massive chakra amount. I never said that. I'm saying *multiple* Raikiri's, for instance, in/through vital organs etc., is really going to take a toll on her Byakugo (of course). Kakashi has more stamina than her too. Tsunade has not dealt with a Raikiri _inside_ her heart or her brain. He's not going to get a blow in his torso easily because he can use shadow clones and/or attack from the back etc. like he did against Kakuzu who had Domu active, who's a boss himself...



... and Kusanagi didn't even fully pierce Yamato either. Kusanagi is simply not comparable to a fatigued Kakashi's Raikiri Kunai blitz, which _ripped_ a hole through a character who had Hashirama Senju's DNA and who KCM Naruto called "so strong". 



The sword of Kusanagi with that lightning current is _*NOTHING*_ compared to the above. 



SakuraLover16 said:


> I disagree with your assumption that Raikiri would leave her incapacitated because it hasn't been said or shown to shock anyone before its ability to pierce and its speed have been highlighted but not discharge. Aiming for her seal would do absolutely nothing considering that all of the chakra that was in the seal is released into the body and only returns to that spot when the user wishes. Also him aiming there will leave him counter attacked.


Paralysis has been proven already. You'd need to find me a page which showed lightning at the level of Raikiri or maybe Chidori Current _within_ someone (like Yamato had a raiton sword in him) that _didn't_ paralyse them. I can accept that it wouldn't affect the seal, but if he aims for the head, and depending on how he does it, it's likely she becomes limp and/or unconscious (the brain works super fast and if it's interrupted as his hand/kunai moves through it, she's not going to stay conscious from that.) 



SakuraLover16 said:


> Edo tensei requires bodies yes but the edo tensei themselves have no brain. If the brain was all that mattered Minato and Kushina would have never been able to contact Naruto. I have already addressed the seal part. Kakashi would only affect whatever his hand touched before he is killed by a counter attack. That scan says she can heal the injury in an instant unless grave meaning she would still heal just not instantly. @AmitDS is also a translator I believe and I have spoke to them before as well.


Counter attack refuted. 
You are correct about Minato and Kushina's souls being somehow embedded into the chakra, but this and the spirit communications are entirely separate matters from the brain's functions. In Tsunade's case, the Byakugo chakra doesn't carry her _soul_, it's just a large amount of her chakra. Besides, you haven't refuted the brain's function of organising memories. I don't disagree that she doesn't heal, but what I'm saying is
1. Multiple devastating moves would quickly drain her both mentally and chakra-wise.
2. A Raikiri _inside_ the brain would completely devastate her body and leave her limp/unconscious, even if it's only in there for a second or two. 



SakuraLover16 said:


> My main problem stems from the fact that people believe that Kakashi would get a clean shot to the brain without being killed himself. People argue that he isn't going to sit still and let her punch him then why is she sitting still to get a kunai or hand through the brain? If Madara couldn't do it how is Kakashi?


Tsunade is definitely not as fast as Kakashi. He also has a sharingan. He also has better battle experience. He's also smarter. He has more stamina. He has better tactics. He has a wider range of moves. He has genjutsu. He has mid-long range moves too. All that and I haven't even yet mentioned Kamui. 

I think the problem really stems from people believing Tsunade would comfortably somehow tag Kakashi, or that one punch would somehow magically finish him off despite his crazy durability feats and the fact that the attacks may only land partially. You can tell me people argue she is going to sit still, but I am _not_ one of those kinds of posters. Edo Madara already owned the Gokage with only moderate difficulty (though they _did_ put up a very valiant effort despite some of them already being fatigued). He's not really that relevant here because 1-on-1 he'd completely destroy Tsunade's career. 



Hina uzumaki said:


> I'm not sure what the limit of the seal is but its going to be wierd if it grants the ability to regrow whole limbs


Weird is Orochimaru. Not regrowing limbs. Besides there's all sorts of more rather interesting/unique things happening in this manga, like spirits/souls moving etc. Tsunade had the pinnacle of medical expertise and if I'm not mistaken her healing was portrayed/likened to Hashirama Senju's. Regrowing a limb is definitely possible, in my mind.


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## Sufex (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> If Madara couldn't do it how is Kakashi?


I really dont like this ind of argument for a multitude of reasons. Firstly using the edo madara fight is faulty in itself as madara was canonically not fully using his abilities until the end where he used PS, are all characters now compared to what a madara who didn't really care attempted to do or not? Next even during the fight, Most of it was just massive jutsu spam, during that instance there isn't room for madara do so the things kakashi styles around, they are fundamentally different kind of fighters so using this comparison is building the foundation on a faulty premise.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AmitDS (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Except those aren't the same techniques. There is nothing that states or implies that Raikiri also paralyses. The technique consists of sending a large amount of chakra to the hand for piercing. Also being lightning chakra that is condensed and thick enough to double as armor it is likely that it has way more electrical potential than Raikiri. So why wouldn't it electrocute Ohnoki. Chidori and Raikiri are also basically the same jutsu as well they just have different names. Also if it had that affect why is it that when the Raikage was hit with chidori why wasn't he paralysed? It is not a fact that Ohnoki was channeling chakra to lessen the effects of the armor it is merely an *assumption made to prove a point.*
> 
> My point is not durability it is her ability to effectively heal all of her organs. She had Byakugo active for hours and during that time she provided chakra, healed, and healed herself. She was even able to massively boost Ohnoki's jinton. Madara even said the Kage would have died long ago without her. She was able to save a village worth of lives using her chakra. A hit to a vital organ is not draining all of her reserves especially if she is only using them for herself. Tsunade has dealt with pain and injuries that would leave anyone else incapacitated. Also what makes gou think he is putting a large hole in her without her blowing a hole in his torso. The blade Kusanagi couldn't even cut into her completely and it was hurting Enma in staff form.
> 
> ...


 LOL no I'm not a translator. I just read a lot from translators on her and on Tumblr (I asked a few on Tumblr for clarification from time to time?)

Um. On topic Kakashi is nothing compared to edo Madara with all his susanoo so I don't know how people think he'd be able to cut her in half and kill her. The grave injury part of the entry would logically refer to stuff like her head being chopped off or her being chopped to pieces. Stabbing etc isn't doing much as we saw her with more severe wounds than Kakashi can inflict, fighting and running about.

Kakashi isn't getting a clean hit on Tsunade in any close combat situation. She is better at taijutsu and is fast enough to react to him. Her Stength also would affect him and the ground her stands on if he gets too close.

She is also good at evasion on top of all that so the odds that he would be able to hit her in a way that she can't regenerate before she reacts evades or lands her own blow, are low. Sakura with inferior evasion skills was evading Sasori's puppets from all over and predicting him and that was early part two. Tsunade at full power can evade Kakashi in his own. 

And what durability feats does Kakashi have? He can't endure getting hit by Tsuande or Ai or anyone with super strength. Without his sharingan he cannot hope to take down a sannin.


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## Symmetry (Jun 24, 2019)

Samael said:


> I'm not one for benefit of the doubt arguments and you got the wrong poster if you think I'm willing to give Tsunade of all characters breathing room. When she's wanked beyond no end and placed against one of the most underrated and versatile characters in the verse.


 


Against someone wanked way harder, you mean?

this one

this one

Here is BOS sakura, with way less experience then Tsunade, figuring out Kakashi.s technique in no time. So yes, his hiding in the ground technique will be seen through. i'd be willing to argue that if Tsunade was in Sakura's place here Kakashi would have actually sustained some noteworthy damage.

All in all, I think Tsunade wins, but he has more dangerous techniques then this one when talking about Tsunade. If I had to make a case for Kakashi, I'd argue on the premise of him outlasting Tsunade since WA Kakashi has stamina like no other.


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## Symmetry (Jun 24, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Most of it was just massive jutsu spam, during that instance there isn't room for madara do so the things kakashi styles around, they are fundamentally different kind of fighters so using this comparison is building the foundation on a faulty premise.





Except when it was five Madara wood clones, in which we see that they opt for close raneg attacks and stabs. Yet while being able to stab Tsunade, five madara wood clones were unable to cut her head off or stab her in the head. And they had killer intent, so It's not like they wouldn't attempt it. Madara tries to kill Tsunade many times, sure not with full power, but still trying to kill them. So either Madara didn't think to behead her, which is unlikely, or his five wood clones couldn't, and he needs more firepower then five version two susanoo clones to stab her in the head. That doesn't look so good for Kakashi.

We never see the wood clones go for spam attacks, just stab attacks, and they canonically did stab Tsunade. Five version two Madara Susanoo clones are in a better position to kill Tsunade by beheading and whatnot, not Kakashi.


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## Symmetry (Jun 24, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> You realize madara was just getting war



he had killer intent, meaning he wanted her dead. His five wood clones all with Susanoo's weren't enough, so he brought out the big guns being PS. 

five wood clone susanoo's couldn't behead her, Kakashi isn't doing it.


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## Sufex (Jun 24, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Except when it was five Madara wood clones, in which we see that they opt for close raneg attacks and stabs. Yet while being able to stab Tsunade, five madara wood clones were unable to cut her head off or stab her in the head. And they had killer intent, so It's not like they wouldn't attempt it. Madara tries to kill Tsunade many times, sure not with full power, but still trying to kill them. So either Madara didn't think to behead her, which is unlikely, or his five wood clones couldn't, and he needs more firepower then five version two susanoo clones to stab her in the head. That doesn't look so good for Kakashi.
> 
> We never see the wood clones go for spam attacks, just stab attacks, and they canonically did stab Tsunade. Five version two Madara Susanoo clones are in a better position to kill Tsunade by beheading and whatnot, not Kakashi.


In the same battle, Madara fails to genjutsu or behead:

Onoki
Mei
Gaara

Does this mean that No one who isn't as powerful can achieve this either?


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Samael said:


> I'm not one for benefit of the doubt arguments and you got the wrong poster if you think I'm willing to give Tsunade of all characters breathing room. When she's wanked beyond no end and placed against one of the most underrated and versatile characters in the verse.



Underrated? How?


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## Ishmael (Jun 24, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Here is BOS sakura, with way less experience then Tsunade, figuring out Kakashi.s technique in no time. So yes, his hiding in the ground technique will be seen through.



Where's Tsunade doing this? Lmao cool points for sakura on figuring it out but this doesn't override kakashi tricking itachi with sharingan eyes and great analytical ability was tricked and only noticed at the last minute. 

Tsunade is getting plucked, a simple raiton hound is the distraction needed and then the mole tech would really be all kakashi needs. The tech not only forces her to either dodge the attack but take her eyes off kakashi, it can't be tanked because that'll lead to a temporary paralysis. She's fucked.



Orochimaru op said:


> i'd be willing to argue that if Tsunade was in Sakura's place here Kakashi would have actually sustained some noteworthy damage.



Because her punching the ground wouldn't have causes the same results..



Orochimaru op said:


> All in all, I think Tsunade wins, but he has more dangerous techniques then this one when talking about Tsunade. If I had to make a case for Kakashi, I'd argue on the premise of him outlasting Tsunade since WA Kakashi has stamina like no other.



His stamina doesn't matter when she has regen which basically allows her to eat attacks.


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## Ishmael (Jun 24, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> five madara wood clones were unable to cut her head off or stab her in the head.



Show us them attempting to do this, since they were unable to that mean it was attempted right?


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> Which is sufficient, as a single successful snipe is all he needs.



Kamui GG? The problem is the number of times it has been used as an offensive weapon in the manga, and the panels of Kakashi having 1v1 feats. His Kamui usage has nearly all been at the aid of team support. Kamui can be avoided the same way other characters you don't think Kakashi can beat would avoid it anyway (i.e by blocking LoS - this can be done by using Katsuyu or deconstructing the ground). If I said Kakashi's only chance to beat Sasuke is with Kamui, do you still agree? If so, would that also be sufficient?



Blu-ray said:


> She cannot heal from having her head wrenched off, and even if you're one of those people who thinks she can regrow a body from the neck down or regrow a head, it still won't help against Kamui when it can send her entire body to another dimension.



People who believe the head can grow back can take this argument upon themselves and have a debate about how to interpret Tsunade's healing. But in CqC for Kakashi to land a head strike with Raikiri I find highly optimistic as it was never done in the manga and Tsunade will have no problem reacting to Kakashi with his with her strike (not to mention Kakashi having to deal with Katsuyu all the same in the meantime)



Blu-ray said:


> Irrelevant as this won't be a fight off attrition, but a battle that will only last as long as it takes Kakashi to warp her, or Tsunade to punch him. Whichever comes first.



Its still a point of battle to mention that Tsunade is favored in. Meaning Kakashi cant simply try to outlast and keep a distance from Tsunade because he will tire out before Tsunade would meaning he will have to be the aggressor.



Blu-ray said:


> True, however he doesn't need to as defeating the summoner deals with the summon itself, and this is assuming she'd even bring out Katsuyu against Kakashi.



Dealing with 2v1 situation puts Kakashi in unfavorable odds in comparison to being on the other side of that.



Blu-ray said:


> Yes, if you don't avoid things that can kill you, you die. The issue is whether or not Kakashi _can_ avoid it, or otherwise deal with it.



Obviously. Again, even if he can avoid it, how long can he keep it up whilst also avoiding fatal blows by Tsunade? Whilst also using up valuable stamina?



Blu-ray said:


> The same goes for Kakashi, except his decisive attack is far easier to land than hers is. Tsunade can't dodge or block Kamui, nor does she employ feints than can misdirect him.



I don't consider Kamui GG as viable as an option as being hinted. Again, it goes against the manga in many ways.



Blu-ray said:


> You didn't explain how she defeats him in the first place. All you've done is state the obvious. He can't win without Kamui? Irrelevant as he can win with it. He can't outlast her? Irrelevant as he can finish her before he exhausts himself. He has to deal with a bunch of acid and her every punch? Sure. Just as she has to avoid Kamui. Kakashi can at least consistently do the former. Tsunade cannot consistently do the latter.



If what you are alluding to is that Kakashi's only chance to win is by using Kamui, sure I've already agreed with that. And that is why Tsunade wins more times than not because the idea of Kamui GG being a result of 10/10 battles is silly and goes against the manga especially considering Kakashi's extreme lack of panel offensive usage of the jutsu and his lack of using it in 1v1 situations (and also using it openly in battle and not waiting a good deal of time to try and attempt)



Blu-ray said:


> All that said, she _can_ win, but it's by summoning Katsuyu immediately and then concealing herself within it, and doing that is about as in character for Tsunade, as starting with Kamui right off the bat is Kakashi.



Tsunade wins 7.5/10 times the times Kakashi wins with Kamui.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> It doesn't matter if they're the same exact techniques (and *actually Chidori is fundamentally Raikiri*) - they're of the same lighting nature and it's clear lightning nature is essentially electricity (look at its numbing properties and electricity SFX). So you are *very* wrong to suggest Raikiri can't paralyse (despite what happened to Yamato with a seemingly smaller current). Let me ask _you_ a question. Why doesn't it electrocute Raikage? It clearly even travels through his nervous system, as stated by the DB, so why doesn't it electrocute Raikage? Why doesn't it electrocute Sasuke? Why doesn't it electrocute Madara? Why doesn't it electrocute Onoki? Please read my three reasons again, as you're pondering these questions. Raikage wasn't paralysed against Sasuke because he himself used Raiton as well. It hardly even pierced him either. It's as simple as that. I didn't actually say Onoki _did_ use chakra in that manner, but if you're suggesting Raikage's Raiton shroud electrocutes people it touches (when it clearly doesn't), _then_ I have three reasons in store for you (including that, of which I outlined earlier). Raikage's Raiton shroud doesn't consume _that_ much chakra, otherwise yes, he _would_ be electrocuting people and possible himself too - also think about this - if he can sustain it for extensive periods of time, it mustn't require _that_ much chakra. If you're wondering why Raikiri/Chidori can numb and paralyse people (depending on how it's used), that's because its electrical concentration and power is much higher (or can be raised higher) than RCM.


The sfx is the sound of the attack not a numbing aound effect. Also you have to take into account Yamato and Tsunade are nowhere near similar when it comes durability and resistance. Since Sasuke's chakra does not belong to the raikage why wouldn't the raikage be affected. My point is since the Raikage's lightning cloak while having lightning doesn't have the ability to electrocute others then any lightning attack may only have a single purpose. The Raikage's shroud uses a lot of chakra Karin even compares it to a biju. His version two state uses even more chakra. There is no excuse as to why it didn't have the ability to shock because it has way more chakra in it than a Raikiri does and to assume otherwise goes against cannon. Sasuke's sword also acted as a conductor you know being metal and all.


Mad Scientist said:


> I'm saying *multiple* Raikiri's, for instance, in/through vital organs etc., is really going to take a toll on her Byakugo (of course). Kakashi has more stamina than her too. Tsunade has not dealt with a Raikiri _inside_ her heart or her brain. He's not going to get a blow in his torso easily because he can use shadow clones and/or attack from the back etc. like he did against Kakuzu who had Domu active, who's a boss himself...


Kakashi in no universe has more chakra than Tsunade. There is also the fact that you think he is gonna hit her multiple times with Raikiri while not recieving a single injury which is the only one he needs to be incapacitated is crazy. Kakashi has not dealt with someone who can blow him apart just by touching him am I supposed to assume that every attack lands and does what it wants to him? Tsunade has fought five Susanoo clones why wouldn't I assume that she has the ability to watch her back and front. Kakazu's Domu was countered by lightning style unless he saw Kakashi use it before he had no reason to doubt his defence.


Mad Scientist said:


> and Kusanagi didn't even fully pierce Yamato either. Kusanagi is simply not comparable to a fatigued Kakashi's Raikiri Kunai blitz, which _ripped_ a hole through a character who had Hashirama Senju's DNA and who KCM Naruto called "so strong".


The Kusanagi that Sasuke had and the one that Orochimaru had are not the same. Orochimaru houses his inside his body, can clone it, and can control it without touching it and its said to be sharp. You forget to mention that Obito let him hit where his heart was it wasn't a blitz. Madara also had Hashi's DNA and was too strong so I don't see the point in this comparison.


Mad Scientist said:


> The sword of Kusanagi with that lightning current is _*NOTHING*_ compared to the above.


Chidori stream is said to paralyze. Raikiri is not plus it goes all the way through the body it doesn't stop when it gets to its destination it goes through the target until they have been completely run through.


Mad Scientist said:


> Paralysis has been proven already. You'd need to find me a page which showed lightning at the level of Raikiri or maybe Chidori Current _within_ someone (like Yamato had a raiton sword in him) that _didn't_ paralyse them. I can accept that it wouldn't affect the seal, but if he aims for the head, and depending on how he does it, it's likely she becomes limp and/or unconscious (the brain works super fast and if it's interrupted as his hand/kunai moves through it, she's not going to stay conscious from that.)


Paralysis hasn't been proven that panel shows him being struck next chaper he pretends to die and Kakashi moves on. Thats hardly evidence for paralysis. I see paralysis outlined for other techniques but not this one or chidori itself. For example after being pierced Haku was able to grab his arm. Its also worth noting that the chakra is gathered into the hand and is not released into the body.


Mad Scientist said:


> You are correct about Minato and Kushina's souls being somehow embedded into the chakra, but this and the spirit communications are entirely separate matters from the brain's functions. In Tsunade's case, the Byakugo chakra doesn't carry her _soul_, it's just a large amount of her chakra. Besides, you haven't refuted the brain's function of organising memories. I don't disagree that she doesn't heal, but what I'm saying is
> 1. Multiple devastating moves would quickly drain her both mentally and chakra-wise.
> 2. A Raikiri _inside_ the brain would completely devastate her body and leave her limp/unconscious, even if it's only in there for a second or two.


Chakra carries the essence of who a person is regardless of where it comes from. Also I am not a scientist. I can only tell you that a baby with about 5% of his brain was able to develop it to 100% but still seemed to maintain memory.

1. Chakra isn't an issue for Tsunade
2. I mentioned that other part above.


Mad Scientist said:


> Tsunade is definitely not as fast as Kakashi. He also has a sharingan. He also has better battle experience. He's also smarter. He has more stamina. He has better tactics. He has a wider range of moves. He has genjutsu. He has mid-long range moves too. All that and I haven't even yet mentioned Kamui.


Slower people hit faster people all the time. A sharingan does not automatically constitute a win. Tsunade has been a part of two wars she has way more experience than Kakashi. Tsunade also possesses intelligence. His wider range of moves means nothing in the long run. Genjutsu wasn't a factor for her when Madara was around so it won't here. Tsunade's mid/long range move is Katsuyu and she doubles as a tank with healing capabilities.


Mad Scientist said:


> I think the problem really stems from people believing Tsunade would comfortably somehow tag Kakashi, or that one punch would somehow magically finish him off despite his crazy durability feats and the fact that the attacks may only land partially. You can tell me people argue she is going to sit still, but I am _not_ one of those kinds of posters. Edo Madara already owned the Gokage with only moderate difficulty (though they _did_ put up a very valiant effort despite some of them already being fatigued). He's not really that relevant here because 1-on-1 he'd completely destroy Tsunade's career.


Problem just as easily stems from people thinking Tsunade is touching him. Or that somehow Kakashi is surviving a Susanoo busting punch. Edo Madara owned the Gokage but would do the same to anyone not named Hashirama. He compliments the group multiple times and told them that numbers shouldn't be an issue for them before making them fight five megazords each for hours. The relevance comes from the fact that they fought for so long and recieved praises from him as well. Portrayal matters alot especially since you have to take both statements and feats into account. A lot of people don't use this especially where the author's intent matters the most. Tsunade fought a whole war without Byakugou and long range ninjutsu and earned her title rightfully along with her teammates but people rank her low in combat. Jiraiya basically tells us that her combat prowess is high. Madara takes back his statement about her being weak. Tsunade from a combat perspective is underrated. Especially her speed.

I am done now. At this rate we will be here forever thank you for the debate.


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## AmitDS (Jun 24, 2019)

Just putting it out there. Kakashi admits that he doesn't have much chakra to begin with whole Tsuande has her seal which is tailed beast levels of chakra. Also even with his improved stamina from before the war to the war it isn't shown that he has better stamina than Tsunade at full health with her full chakra reserves.

His only hope is kamui and in a close encounter he'd be pressed to pull it off while she charges at him and unleashes her attacks. Katsuyu would make is far worse. 

Kakashi gets a lot over overeating in the fandom. He isn't a speedster with massive reserves and he doesn't have many OP jutsu. Most of his jutsu can't really do much to Tsunade. Raikiri can be avoided or tanked and kamui isn't a guaranteed because it isn't guaranteed to hit her and take her out.


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2019)

I think we're missing something about Kamui here. It doesn't matter if Kakashi can't warp a whole body (something he can do as he warped an explosion that was going to dwarf team Gai and Team 7 when his Kamui was not fully mastered), only a head shot is enough. 

Heck, using Kamui in a Kunai size is enough to kill someone. Warp their heart, their face or their forehead in a kunai sized Kamui and most enemies are done for. In this case, even a Kamui like this, which WA Kakashi can use freely, is not something I see Tsunade overcoming.

Kamui is just that broken. And the only thing preventing Kakashi from being extremely dangerous is his mindset.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

AmitDS said:


> Just putting it out there. Kakashi admits that he doesn't have much chakra to begin with whole Tsuande has her seal which is tailed beast levels of chakra. Also even with his improved stamina from before the war to the war it isn't shown that he has better stamina than Tsunade at full health with her full chakra reserves.
> 
> His only hope is kamui and in a close encounter he'd be pressed to pull it off while she charges at him and unleashes her attacks. Katsuyu would make is far worse.
> 
> Kakashi gets a lot over overeating in the fandom. He isn't a speedster with massive reserves and he doesn't have many OP jutsu. Most of his jutsu can't really do much to Tsunade. Raikiri can be avoided or tanked and kamui isn't a guaranteed because it isn't guaranteed to hit her and take her out.



Brother we need you to stay active. This kind of logic and reasoning has been hard to find lately.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> I think we're missing something about Kamui here. It doesn't matter if Kakashi can't warp a whole body (something he can do as he warped an explosion that was going to dwarf team Gai and Team 7 when his Kamui was not fully mastered), only a head shot is enough.
> 
> Heck, using Kamui in a Kunai sized is enough to kill someone. Warp their heart, their face, in a kunai sized Kamui and most enemies are done for. In this case, even a Kamui like this, which WA Kakashi can use freely, is not something I see Tsunade overcoming.



imagine how OP Kakashi would have been in the manga if he actually used Kamui the way it was drawn up on paper instead of the way he actually used it in the manga?


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> imagine how OP Kakashi would have been in the manga if he actually used Kamui the way it was drawn up on paper instead of the way he actually used it in the manga?



You mean like War Arc Kakashi?

Op, indeed.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sufex said:


> I really dont like this ind of argument for a multitude of reasons. Firstly using the edo madara fight is faulty in itself as madara was canonically not fully using his abilities until the end where he used PS, are all characters now compared to what a madara who didn't really care attempted to do or not? Next even during the fight, Most of it was just massive jutsu spam, during that instance there isn't room for Madara do so the things kakashi styles around, they are fundamentally different kind of fighters so using this comparison is building the foundation on a faulty premise.


Not building an argument off of this would be unwise. If an argument can be built by using Juubito for Gai's speed then I don't see why me using Tsunade is such a problem. Madara was superior to all five Kage who specialized in different things being a different type of fighter matters not when fighting an overwhelming power who is good at about everything more so than those who spend years honing their craft. The whole point of the five Kage versus Madara was to show how overwhelming and ridiculous his power was. To even last that long against Madara is supposed to be seen as an accomplishment, not something to ignore. Anyways I can't argue anymore its too tiring. I spent an hour and a half on the previous post.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> You mean like War Arc Kakashi?
> 
> Op, indeed.


Can I recieve a ban?


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> You mean like War Arc Kakashi?
> 
> Op, indeed.



No, not like WA Kakashi. I'm talking about the Kakashi that uses Kamui the way you described and/or the best ways to actually use it, basically the exact opposite of how manga Kakashi utilized Kamui. 

When he met Tendo Pain he should have just took off his head from the start (he already knew how powerful he was beating Jiraiya and all). This alone is something only certain High Kages and above can accomplish considering how powerful Tendo alone is. WA Kakashi's Kamui usage was only with a team setting and 99% of the time about defensive usage.


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Can I recieve a ban?



You're one of my favorites here, you're going nowhere! *Chains you to this forum*



Shazam said:


> No, not like WA Kakashi. I'm talking about the Kakashi that uses Kamui the way you described and/or the best ways to actually use it, basically the exact opposite of how manga Kakashi utilized Kamui.
> 
> When he met Tendo Pain he should have just took off his head from the start (he already knew how powerful he was beating Jiraiya and all). This alone is something only certain High Kages and above can accomplish considering how powerful Tendo alone is. WA Kakashi's Kamui usage was only with a team setting and 99% of the time about defensive usage.



I mean, we have WA Kakashi using Kamui like giving free candies in Halloween. Not sure what more do you want.

Pain arc Kakashi is not WA Kakashi. And he had Kamui, but he was going to die anyway and needed knowledge on Deva, wich was more important than his own life. So why not using it on saving Choji when he knew Deva or Asura were not "the real one among them?"

Why waste the info Jiraiya gave? I mean, he also sacrified his life for information. Kakashi did the same.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> You're one of my favorites here, you're going nowhere! *Chains you to this forum*


How about a section ban?


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> You're one of my favorites here, you're going nowhere! *Chains you to this forum*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sure if you are also considering the times he had Kurama chakra boost to aid. Exactly how many Kamui's were used prior to that in the WA? And out of those exactly how many was about using it in an offensive manner? Furthermore, of those, how many consisted of Kakashi using Kamui without anyone there to aid him while he is focusing his chakra? 

Tendo dying from the start would have gave Konoha the win before Naruto even arrives. As long as they take the body with them so not to be brough back. 5 paths that doesn't include Tendo would lose to a village like Konoha who still has Tsunade active for battle if need be.


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> How about a section ban?


You're already chained. That means I make the rules here. Not a section ban either. :Erza




Shazam said:


> Sure if you are also considering the times he had Kurama chakra boost to aid. Exactly how many Kamui's were used prior to that in the WA? And out of those exactly how many was about using it in an offensive manner? Furthermore, of those, how many consisted of Kakashi using Kamui without anyone there to aid him while he is focusing his chakra?



He was going to "kill" Obito with it.
He used Kamui twice in the blink of a second to warp a Kunai twice (and a Rasengan, something bigger than a head). 
He was going to use Kamui on a combined TBB
He used Kamui on Gedo Mazo's arm and Madara Uchiha, who spits on everybody, praised Kakashi's eye. This is quite overlooked. For Madara to praise someone it had to be quite powerful, enough to get his attention. And Kakashi did that without Kyuubi's chakra, if I am not mistaken. Been a while since I read that part.

I think that's more than enough to assume Kakashi is proficient with Kamui and able to use it quite well. Again, Kunai sized Kamuis are extremely dangerous, you're missing a notable part of your body and Kakashi is not very taxed with it.



Shazam said:


> Tendo dying from the start would have gave Konoha the win before Naruto even arrives. As long as they take the body with them so not to be brough back. 5 paths that doesn't include Tendo would lose to a village like Konoha who still has Tsunade active for battle if need be.



Tendo dying from the start would have changed nothing. They needed information, and Kakashi's information was huge, it was the strongest path. But who says Nagato can't use Yahiko's abilities on another path? After all, those are his powers, not the paths. 

Killing Tendo would've just eliminated a "pawn" that Nagato could've replicated and no info would've been gathered.

Worst cases, Nagato retreats and comes back again with a new Deva Path. Or could've Animal Path summon a replacement. It was going to change nothing. The info Jiraiya gave about Pain was too influential, and Kakashi's best bet was to gather said info and give it to Tsunade. Even above his own life.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> He was going to "kill" Obito with it.




Hard to say what would happen when it never did



LostSelf said:


> He used Kamui twice in the blink of a second to warp a Kunai twice.



There's 2 




LostSelf said:


> He was going to use Kamui on a combined TBB




Would have been highly impressive it actually did happen. Once upon a time I actually made a thread supporting Kakashi that he could (majority of the forum at that time disagreed - its been about 7 months ago) 

Again, hard to say what would happen when it never did




LostSelf said:


> He used Kamui on Gedo Mazo's arm and Madara Uchiha, who spits on everybody, praised Kakashi's eye.




Wasn't this after kurama chakra boost?



LostSelf said:


> For Madara to praise someone it had to be quite powerful, enough to get his attention. And Kakashi did what without Kyuubi's chakra, if I am not mistaken. Been a while since I read that part.



I'm pretty sure kurama chakra boost came prior to the end of the fight against Rinne Obito and Jins IIRC




LostSelf said:


> I think that's more than enough to assume Kakashi is proficient with Kamui and able to use it quite well. Again, Kunai sized Kamuis are extremely dangerous, you're missing a notable part of your body and Kakashi is not very taxed with it.




I counted 2 for sure that was used prior to Kurama chakra. I counted 0 that was used offensively (actually used not "going to use"). Again, on paper Kamui is OP. Manga Kakashi was extremely limited with it compared to how you or I could imagine it being used. 




LostSelf said:


> Tendo dying from the start would have changed nothing. They needed information, and Kakashi's information was huge, it was the strongest path. But who says Nagato can't use Yahiko's abilities on another path? After all, those are his powers, not the paths.




No was to tell for certain, but since it never occurred in the manga, we cant say that Nagato can use Tendo's abilities from other paths. 

Kill





LostSelf said:


> ing Tendo would've just eliminated a "pawn" that Nagato could've replicated and no info would've been gathered.



We don't know if he could though. And neither would Kakashi. 



LostSelf said:


> Worst cases, Nagato retreats and comes back again with a new Deva Path. Or could've Animal Path summon a replacement. It was going to change nothing. The info Jiraiya gave about Pain was too influential, and Kakashi's best bet was to gather said info and give it to Tsunade. Even above his own life.



Do you not think Kakashi was trying to kill Tendo the whole time?


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 24, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> he had killer intent, meaning he wanted her dead. His five wood clones all with Susanoo's weren't enough, so he brought out the big guns being PS.
> 
> five wood clone susanoo's couldn't behead her, Kakashi isn't doing it.


He was trying to guage their strength hence the use of the weakest form of sussanoo... The one tsunade cracked... 
Where was it stated the clones were trying to behead tsunade... The clones using sussanoo is very different from kakashi... He is more cunning and subtle in his approach, plus he has over a thousand jutsu, don't you think the hidden mist justu will be among. With tsunade not being a sensor, taking her down in the mist will be easy


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> It doesn't matter if they're the same exact techniques (and *actually Chidori is fundamentally Raikiri*) - they're of the same lighting nature and it's clear lightning nature is essentially electricity (look at its numbing properties and electricity SFX). So you are *very* wrong to suggest Raikiri can't paralyse (despite what happened to Yamato with a seemingly smaller current). Let me ask _you_ a question. Why doesn't it electrocute Raikage? It clearly even travels through his nervous system, as stated by the DB, so why doesn't it electrocute Raikage? Why doesn't it electrocute Sasuke? Why doesn't it electrocute Madara? Why doesn't it electrocute Onoki? Please read my three reasons again, as you're pondering these questions. Raikage wasn't paralysed against Sasuke because he himself used Raiton as well. It hardly even pierced him either. It's as simple as that. I didn't actually say Onoki _did_ use chakra in that manner, but if you're suggesting Raikage's Raiton shroud electrocutes people it touches (when it clearly doesn't), _then_ I have three reasons in store for you (including that, of which I outlined earlier). Raikage's Raiton shroud doesn't consume _that_ much chakra, otherwise yes, he _would_ be electrocuting people and possible himself too - also think about this - if he can sustain it for extensive periods of time, it mustn't require _that_ much chakra. If you're wondering why Raikiri/Chidori can numb and paralyse people (depending on how it's used), that's because its electrical concentration and power is much higher (or can be raised higher) than RCM.
> 
> 
> You don't understand. I'm not saying she can't recover her physical organs and tissue structure or that she doesn't have a massive chakra amount. I never said that. I'm saying *multiple* Raikiri's, for instance, in/through vital organs etc., is really going to take a toll on her Byakugo (of course). Kakashi has more stamina than her too. Tsunade has not dealt with a Raikiri _inside_ her heart or her brain. He's not going to get a blow in his torso easily because he can use shadow clones and/or attack from the back etc. like he did against Kakuzu who had Domu active, who's a boss himself...
> ...


In my opinion kakashi wins... He has a lot of jutsus to use including the hidden mist jutsu( I'm guessing he has it). With tsunade not being a sensor... Kakashi's win is almost guaranteed

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> The sfx is the sound of the attack not a numbing aound effect. Also you have to take into account Yamato and Tsunade are nowhere near similar when it comes durability and resistance. Since Sasuke's chakra does not belong to the raikage why wouldn't the raikage be affected. My point is since the Raikage's lightning cloak while having lightning doesn't have the ability to electrocute others then any lightning attack may only have a single purpose. The Raikage's shroud uses a lot of chakra Karin even compares it to a biju. His version two state uses even more chakra. There is no excuse as to why it didn't have the ability to shock because it has way more chakra in it than a Raikiri does and to assume otherwise goes against cannon. Sasuke's sword also acted as a conductor you know being metal and all.


The SFX is clearly an electric sound. We see Bzp sfx against the V2 Jinchuuriki as well when Kakashi's hand is covered in Lightning. Lightning nature is essentially electricity - you have not refuted this. Chidori, which is basically Raikiri, was able to paralyse Yamato in a matter of seconds despite visually there didn't seem to be that much lightning/electricity. A isn't shown to be affected by numbing because his Raiton can somewhat cancel out Sasuke's Chidori (as he is able to have lightning run through his body anyway, and because Sasuke's chidori hardly even pierced him, and because it was for a really short time). If A could use his V2 state a lot, he would have used it against Madara, but not, he had to conserve his strength and thus initially opted for RCM1. Karin can compare it to whatever she wants (and was this RCM2?) but the fact is this "Biju-level" chakra did _not_ electrocute people (though I'm not saying it can't electrocute fodder). Raikiri actually has a lot of chakra in it. While Sasuke's sword does act as a conductor, it's really no different than a Raiton Kunai or a hand enveloped in electricity going through a person. It really isn't that different. You have to remember that even a seemingly small current numbed Yamato because it was stuck in him.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Kakashi in no universe has more chakra than Tsunade. There is also the fact that you think he is gonna hit her multiple times with Raikiri while not recieving a single injury which is the only one he needs to be incapacitated is crazy. Kakashi has not dealt with someone who can blow him apart just by touching him am I supposed to assume that every attack lands and does what it wants to him? Tsunade has fought five Susanoo clones why wouldn't I assume that she has the ability to watch her back and front. Kakazu's Domu was countered by lightning style unless he saw Kakashi use it before he had no reason to doubt his defence.


I wouldn't say he is too far off, but what you're saying about her chakra capacity doesn't actually matter. No, I'm saying if he hits her multiple times (which he can quite easily do, as suggested by his WA feats), it's going to drain away her Byakugo. If he pushes a Raikiri into her brain, she's going to go unconsious or limp very, very quickly. Kakashi's dealt with multiple strong moves against him. Kakashi tanked kick to stomach by Kakuzu (who once broke down a wall with his bare fist), being blown through trees, plus wind blast. A very fatigued Kakashi survived a knee to the head from someone who KCM Naruto said was so strong, Tobi, who fairly easily tanked BM Naruto's headbutt. Kakashi shrugged off V2 Jinchuuriki's tail smack. Survived a Shinra Tensei at point blank. Besides, Tsunade's too slow and not tactical enough to land effective hits. She will be outsmarted every step of the way.

Did she fight those Susanoo clones alone? Are they as fast as Kakashi?

While it is weak against Lightning, it does add a little extra layer of defence. Furthermore, the main point is that Kakashi is so fast he can do this to someone as strong as Kakuzu. WA Kakashi has more in store.



SakuraLover16 said:


> The Kusanagi that Sasuke had and the one that Orochimaru had are not the same. Orochimaru houses his inside his body, can clone it, and can control it without touching it and its said to be sharp.


So what if they're not the same? Doesn't refute that lightning-natured moves (essentially electricity) have numbing properties.



SakuraLover16 said:


> You forget to mention that Obito let him hit where his heart was it wasn't a blitz. Madara also had Hashi's DNA and was too strong so I don't see the point in this comparison.


No. KCM Naruto, someone who can crush bricks with just his Chakra Arms said that Tobi was "so strong" and KCM Naruto wasn't able to push back Tobi's gunbai in that moment. Tobi has very tough skin (as evidence by only getting grazed over his arm by a point-blank Rasengan from KCM Naruto. And your first point is wrong too. Anyone can let anyone hit them. If that person is too tough, they're not going to get pierced. Simple as that. Even _if_ Tobi did let him pierce his heart (and let's assume so), it doesn't change the fact Kakashi ripped open a massive hole in him at the speed he did. Please don't downplay Tobi's defense - that guy fairly _easily_ tanked BM Naruto's surprise headbutt.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Chidori stream is said to paralyze. Raikiri is not plus it goes all the way through the body it doesn't stop when it gets to its destination it goes through the target until they have been completely run through.


Chidori is basically Raikiri. People have discussed this many times. I personally think Raikiri has more authority, given its S-rank status, but I haven't been able to prove this. While Raikiri (Chidori) _is_ used to pierce, it _can_ be used to go through the brain or be lodged inside the heart.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Paralysis hasn't been proven that panel shows him being struck next chaper he pretends to die and Kakashi moves on. Thats hardly evidence for paralysis. I see paralysis outlined for other techniques but not this one or chidori itself. For example after being pierced Haku was able to grab his arm. Its also worth noting that the chakra is gathered into the hand and is not released into the body.


Yamato's literal thoughts are that he was being numbed and paralysed - _how _or _why _are you trying to refute this?
The chakra gathered in the hand is turned into electricity, essentially. Upon contact, this _will_ travel through the body if lodged in.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Chakra carries the essence of who a person is regardless of where it comes from. Also I am not a scientist. I can only tell you that a baby with about 5% of his brain was able to develop it to 100% but still seemed to maintain memory.
> 
> 1. Chakra isn't an issue for Tsunade
> 2. I mentioned that other part above.


That doesn't make sense. If chakra carried the essence of a person, people healed would gain memories from other people and people who gain Naruto's chakra would gain memories too. Like I said, the Minato one is quite arbitrary; essentially Minato sealed a part of himself inside Naruto but that thing is allowed to defy laws of physics. What isn't allowed to defy laws of physics and brains is Tsunade somehow regaining memories when her brain has been busted and recovered. Chakra is an issue for Tsunade as she lost Byakugo against Madara and needed help from the soul of another ninja. She can't just use it forever. That's not how things work. Not sure what other part you're referring to.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Slower people hit faster people all the time. A sharingan does not automatically constitute a win. Tsunade has been a part of two wars she has way more experience than Kakashi. Tsunade also possesses intelligence. His wider range of moves means nothing in the long run. Genjutsu wasn't a factor for her when Madara was around so it won't here. Tsunade's mid/long range move is Katsuyu and she doubles as a tank with healing capabilities.


Kakashi has also been in two wars, and while Tsunade was slacking off and got rusty at some point, Kakashi has never caught a break. While Tsunade has done more missions than Kakashi, Kakashi has the _better_ experience. He's fought against characters who've nearly killed him, multiple times. He's fought in the biggest shinobi war against characters who are much stronger than Tsunade, and thus he got to showcase much stronger battle feats. While slower people _can_ hit faster people sometimes, this is not going to be the case for Kakashi. Tell me when Kakashi has often been tagged easily by slower characters with valid feats. While a Sharingan does not automatically constitute a win, you aren't understanding the point; it'll allow him to bypass her taijutsu fairly easily. She _cannot_ even keep up with that guy's base speed. He is smarter and has figured out the weaknesses of nearly _every_ opponent he's faced. His wider range of moves means he can counter Tsunade and Katsuyu any time. That doesn't even include Kamui. Genjutsu wasn't a factor for her because she had four other kage-level fighters as support. Katsuyu's acid isn't known to be very fast, and a Kakashi Shadow Clone can easily divert it away using a mixture of Earth Style jutsu and Lighting Style. In fact, mixing Water Style with a Raikiri Kunai will paralyse it. Katsuyu can split when she _chooses_ to do so, but if she's cut before she consciously chooses to split, she'll hurt badly, unless you can show me a counter example where she was split externally, before she could even decide to split or not. If she goes into a liquid form, she is negged by Lightning.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Problem just as easily stems from people thinking Tsunade is touching him. Or that somehow Kakashi is surviving a Susanoo busting punch. Edo Madara owned the Gokage but would do the same to anyone not named Hashirama. He compliments the group multiple times and told them that numbers shouldn't be an issue for them before making them fight five megazords each for hours. The relevance comes from the fact that they fought for so long and recieved praises from him as well. Portrayal matters alot especially since you have to take both statements and feats into account. A lot of people don't use this especially where the author's intent matters the most. Tsunade fought a whole war without Byakugou and long range ninjutsu and earned her title rightfully along with her teammates but people rank her low in combat. Jiraiya basically tells us that her combat prowess is high. Madara takes back his statement about her being weak. Tsunade from a combat perspective is underrated. Especially her speed.


Tsunade is _not_ touching him though. I've refuted this above. It didn't even bust Madara's Susanoo. I already showcased Kakashi's immense defence. No. The Gokage tried quite well against him, but even then they were too slow to actually seal him away or use Jinton to erase him. You refer to them fighting the Susanoo clones for hours, but Kakashi fought _way_ longer than she did.


*Spoiler*: _How long the masters fought - The First Day and Night_ 




_*On the first day of the war, Gai fought almost non-stop with blood-lusted enemies left, right and centre, leaving him much more tired than when he started.*_ On Day One, the Third Division (led by Kakashi Hatake) is called in to assist in the battle of the Allied Force’s Ambush at the Land of Hot Water (). This is when we first see Kakashi and Gai at full health (). During the next 7½ pages, it is clear that some time has passed as we see in the bottom panel on page 11 () that multiple men and women are wounded, and most likely, dead. On the following page, you can witness some brutal deaths inflicted by the reanimated army, including wielders of the deadly Scorch Style (). We also observe one of the enemy get called a “Monster!!” (). This series of events serves to illustrate how much time has passed and how horrible the war is. Though Gai and Kakashi have accepted that people _will_ die, they must still aid, lead and motivate their comrades where they are able. As such, we see Lee and Gai, for instance, intercept the enemy with Hurricane Whirlwinds ().

​
_*Gai is a highly experienced leader.*_ At this point, we see evidence of Gai’s worn-out figure (naturally, as time had passed). Gai, as the motivational figure he is, provides words of wisdom to the comrade by his side: “Don’t allow their deaths to have been in vain! Got that, newbie?!!” This statement, among other things, serves to portray Gai’s experience; during the Third Shinobi World War, Might Duy saved Gai’s life by releasing the Eighth Gate to shatter the deadly Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist (SSM), but by satisfying his one rule for its use: giving his life to *protect* something precious ().

*A lot of time has past, SSM have murdered many, Gai and Kakashi still ready to kick some tails!* At the start of the next chapter (), we see the bittersweet reunion of the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist, the group who forced Duy to release the 8th Gate which had ended with his one rule being satisfied. On page 3, we see Kakashi ask for “some time” (). Cutting back from another scene, on page 5, we see someone say “It makes no difference how many times we assault them.” These facts suggest The Third Division already have had some time fighting with the deadly SSM, a direct correlation with time spent (). On page 9, the Eternal Rival of the future Seventh Hokage is seen together, both ready to kick some tails despite all that fighting already ()!

*Spoiler*: __ 




​



*More bloody fighting.* More fighting ensues with the SSM, and Zabuza and Kakashi clash in a cruel twist of fate. All this means that Gai has also been fighting off-panel too.

*Rampage; more intense fighting ensues. *The cruel encounter in chapter 524 causes Kakashi’s temper to reach its boiling point. To show everyone why he’s called “The Copy Ninja” who copied over 1,000 Jutsu, Kakashi goes on a rampage ()! It's then easy to reason that Gai, as his eternal rival, also goes on a rampage. (Unconvinced Gai goes on a rampage? Please read on.)

​*Just how much fighting has Gai done so far, exactly...?* The fact that there are so many enemies is emphasised when on this very page we are paralleled with a troubled Neji Hyuga stating as much. When you consider the number of enemies left, the frequent use of time-skipping, the fact that now even more time will be spent taking out the rest of the SSM and other enemies, and by considering the fact that Might Gai is seen throughout the entire War Arc in parallel or nearby Kakashi numerous times, it makes perfect sense that Might Gai also goes on a rampage following the pacing of his eternal rival, staying back-to-back like sworn brothers (as do the other soldiers as they’d be further hyped following in their commander’s footsteps). Reflecting once more in terms of war progression, this means that _even more_ time passes in this battle. But how much time, approximately? Well, the next time we see the duo in the night (), they are even more worn out than they were before (naturally).


*The First Night of the War*​*
Restless night.* During the day of fighting, members of the White Zetsu Army infiltrated the Alliance's ranks. Once night falls, the disguised Zetsu begin methodically eliminating key Allied personnel all across the battlefield. The Alliance is thrown into disarray until Sakura Haruno is able to determine what is happening. Despite this, there are no effective countermeasures against the Zetsu and vigilance is unable to prevent additional deaths. Suspicion reigns over the Allies ().

By the end of the first night, both forces were effectively cut in half. The Allied Forces from 80,000 to 40,000, the Zetsu Army from 100,000 to 50,000.




And *that* only covers the _first day (and night)_. Don't misunderstand this. Kakashi has much more stamina than Tsunade.

You can't keep acting as if Madara thinks Tsunade's powerful. He doesn't think of the Gokage very highly at all.



SakuraLover16 said:


> I am done now. At this rate we will be here forever thank you for the debate.


Actually, by you refuting points like paralysis and suggesting Tsunade can keep up with Kakashi, it's very clear how this will end. Thanks so far, for your civility


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 24, 2019)

Fo


Mad Scientist said:


> The SFX is clearly an electric sound. We see Bzp sfx against the V2 Jinchuuriki as well when Kakashi's hand is covered in Lightning. Lightning nature is essentially electricity - you have not refuted this. Chidori, which is basically Raikiri, was able to paralyse Yamato in a matter of seconds despite visually there didn't seem to be that much lightning/electricity. A isn't shown to be affected by numbing because his Raiton can somewhat cancel out Sasuke's Chidori (as he is able to have lightning run through his body anyway, and because Sasuke's chidori hardly even pierced him, and because it was for a really short time). If A could use his V2 state a lot, he would have used it against Madara, but not, he had to conserve his strength and thus initially opted for RCM1. Karin can compare it to whatever she wants (and was this RCM2?) but the fact is this "Biju-level" chakra did _not_ electrocute people (though I'm not saying it can't electrocute fodder). Raikiri actually has a lot of chakra in it. While Sasuke's sword does act as a conductor, it's really no different than a Raiton Kunai or a hand enveloped in electricity going through a person. It really isn't that different. You have to remember that even a seemingly small current numbed Yamato because it was stuck in him.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say he is too far off, but what you're saying about her chakra capacity doesn't actually matter. No, I'm saying if he hits her multiple times (which he can quite easily do, as suggested by his WA feats), it's going to drain away her Byakugo. If he pushes a Raikiri into her brain, she's going to go unconsious or limp very, very quickly. Kakashi's dealt with multiple strong moves against him. Kakashi tanked kick to stomach by Kakuzu (who once broke down a wall with his bare fist), being blown through trees, plus wind blast. A very fatigued Kakashi survived a knee to the head from someone who KCM Naruto said was so strong, Tobi, who fairly easily tanked BM Naruto's headbutt. Kakashi shrugged off V2 Jinchuuriki's tail smack. Survived a Shinra Tensei at point blank. Besides, Tsunade's too slow and not tactical enough to land effective hits. She will be outsmarted every step of the way.
> ...


Don't forget he has quite a number of tricks and jutsus under his belt.... I feel kakashi wins this... With his sharingan precog and kamui... His elemental ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu abilities.... Its a win for him

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Hard to say what would happen when it never did



Doing it or not doesn't matter. What matters is the intention of using it against someone. Obito stopped him, but that doesn't mean everybody can tell Kakashi to not use Kamui and convince him.



Shazam said:


> Would have been highly impressive it actually did happen. Once upon a time I actually made a thread supporting Kakashi that he could (majority of the forum at that time disagreed - its been about 7 months ago)
> 
> Again, hard to say what would happen when it never did



Doesn't matter if it didn't happen here, what matters is the intention. We only need that. We can part from two feats:

WA Kakashi showed the intention of using Kamui both, offensively and deffensively.
WA Kakashi can use at minimum, Kunai and Ransengan sized Kamuis twice in less than one second.

These two feats should say he is willing to use Kamui, and that he can take one's head off with a quick Kamui shot.



Shazam said:


> Wasn't this after kurama chakra boost?
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure kurama chakra boost came prior to the end of the fight against Rinne Obito and Jins IIRC





Shazam said:


> I counted 2 for sure that was used prior to Kurama chakra. I counted 0 that was used offensively (actually used not "going to use"). Again, on paper Kamui is OP. Manga Kakashi was extremely limited with it compared to how you or I could imagine it being used.



I'd have to check on that. But as much as I recall, Naruto started giving chakra after the Juubi was revived, which would mean Kakashi warped a huge arm and was praised without Kyuubi chakra.



Shazam said:


> No was to tell for certain, but since it never occurred in the manga, we cant say that Nagato can use Tendo's abilities from other paths.



But he should. If he can channel chakra through Tendo, why couldn't he use it through another path? He had a replacement for Animal Path, who says he wouldn't have one for Tendo? It is very likely he did. And it's likely any path can use an ability (just one) if he chooses it. If Tendo died, he could've been replaced by another.



Shazam said:


> We don't know if he could though. And neither would Kakashi.



Kakashi knew he was not fighting the real enemy in Tendo and Asura, thanks to Jiraiya. Therefore there was no need to kill them before gathering the info, as he should know that these bodies could be replaced. I mean, if he's controlling dead bodies, it's logical to assume the possibility that the one controlling them could have more, and could replace them. Info was greatly needed here because if Kakashi got info, it doesn't matter how many times Nagato changed bodies, his jutsus would be the same, and there would be info on them.



Shazam said:


> Do you not think Kakashi was trying to kill Tendo the whole time?



He was, but he also was trying to gather information. Which is why he decided to save Choji and have him deliver the information above his own life.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

AmitDS said:


> Just putting it out there. Kakashi admits that he doesn't have much chakra to begin with whole Tsuande has her seal which is tailed beast levels of chakra. Also even with his improved stamina from before the war to the war it isn't shown that he has better stamina than Tsunade at full health with her full chakra reserves.
> 
> His only hope is kamui and in a close encounter he'd be pressed to pull it off while she charges at him and unleashes her attacks. Katsuyu would make is far worse.
> 
> Kakashi gets a lot over overeating in the fandom. He isn't a speedster with massive reserves and he doesn't have many OP jutsu. Most of his jutsu can't really do much to Tsunade. Raikiri can be avoided or tanked and kamui isn't a guaranteed because it isn't guaranteed to hit her and take her out.


No offence meant, but you're stating a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions. 

Kakashi on low health/chakra can comfortably warp 1/2 a Biju-sized object (). 
He fought much longer than Tsunade and took much more hits. Read my to SakuraLover16. 
He ripped V2 Jin Chakra Arms so fast they were still airborne even though they had boxed the masters in, even though he was fatigued, even though I showed they are faster than KN4's Chakra Arm, and despite these being V2 Jins who were _toying_ with KCM Naruto. ()
He tanked a knee to the head by Tobi (who KCM Naruto said was "so tough" and failed to shrug off his Gunbai) despite being at such low health. 
I could go on, and on, and on...


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Doing it or not doesn't matter. What matters is the intention of using it against someone. Obito stopped him, but that doesn't mean everybody can tell Kakashi to not use Kamui and convince him.



I concede to this then, however it still marks 0 times used or intended to use in a 1v1 situation. I suppose it would show that Kakashi is willing to use Kamui offensively. The question now becomes at what point and against what opponent does this become a reality in a 1v1 when its never been done ? Otherwise you're left with saying Kamui GG against any opponent he's up against. 




LostSelf said:


> I'd have to check on that. But as much as I recall, Naruto started giving chakra after the Juubi was revived, which would mean Kakashi warped a huge arm and was praised without Kyuubi chakra.



Let me know what you find




LostSelf said:


> But he should. If he can channel chakra through Tendo, why couldn't he use it through another path? He had a replacement for Animal Path, who says he wouldn't have one for Tendo? It is very likely he did. And it's likely any path can use an ability (just one) if he chooses it. If Tendo died, he could've been replaced by another.



At the time Kakashi would have been more concerned with saving the village and the villagers. Nothing would have been more important than that. If it meant the delay of Pain's assault and saving lives of the villagers and his comrades, Kakashi would have been intending to kill any path he could above all else and figure the rest out later. (he knows Naruto was training)  




LostSelf said:


> He was, but he also was trying to gather information. Which is why he decided to save Choji and have him deliver the information above his own life.



How can he both be trying to kill and gain information? If that Raikiri landed he wouldn't have got anything from Tendo. Meaning Kamui GG should have been his first option of attack. But it wasn't. This would have been his best chance to show us Kamui being used in 1v1.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> The question now becomes at what point and against what opponent does this become a reality in a 1v1 when its never been done ? Otherwise you're left with saying Kamui GG against any opponent he's up against.


He already tried to Kamui gg Deidara and "Madara" at the bridge, this despite him not being as proficient in Kamui as in the WA. You have to remember that he is one of the most smartest characters. He will use Kamui when he can and needs to. This "offensive Kamui" thing is the silliest thing I've heard in a long time.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> You're already chained. That means I make the rules here. Not a section ban either. :Erza


I can get one from one of the forum gods Reznor is the first that comes to mind 


Mad Scientist said:


> Actually, by you refuting points like paralysis and suggesting Tsunade can keep up with Kakashi, it's very clear how this will end. Thanks so far, for your civility


Neither of those are ridiculous in the slightest. Not like Kakashi having more chakra than Tsunade or Suggesting that Kakashi would tag Tsunade up and down the block without being touched.

Everyone has the right to be treated well. Do unto others what you want done to you.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Neither of those are ridiculous in the slightest. Not like Kakashi having more chakra than Tsunade or Suggesting that Kakashi would tag Tsunade up and down the block without being touched.
> 
> Everyone has the right to be treated well. Do unto others what you want done to you.


I wasn't rude to you though. Furthermore, I didn't actually say Kakashi had more chakra than Tsunade, I asserted that he wasn't far from it. Kakashi could destroy Tsunade though; he's much faster, has more skills, has insane durability and stamina, has piercing moves etc. etc. etc. 

Obviously, just get back to me when you can.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> He already tried to Kamui gg Deidara and "Madara" at the bridge, this despite him not being as proficient in Kamui as in the WA. You have to remember that he is one of the most smartest characters. He will use Kamui when he can and needs to. This "offensive Kamui" thing is the silliest thing I've heard in a long time.



He used Kamui on Deidara when it was his only option.

Against Madara it was likely he tried because he didn't think he had any chance otherwise. 

Other times like against Kakuzu he allowed his team to be put at a risk of dying instead of Kamui GG - Against blurry eyed MS Sasuke when he said he would be the one to kill him - same against Pain - same against other Edo in the early WA. And none of the times Kakashi used Kamui was it in 1v1.

But for some reason he uses Kamui offensively in 1v1 for every single NBD match? 

Sounds unlikely


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> He used Kamui on Deidara when it was his only option.
> 
> Against Madara it was likely he tried because he didn't think he had any chance otherwise.
> 
> ...


Doesn't change the fact both had killing offensive intent. 
I actually am not someone who says Kamui gg for formal matches.
People who say this are generally 70% comic relief and maybe 30% serious.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I wasn't rude to you though. Furthermore, I didn't actually say Kakashi had more chakra than Tsunade, I asserted that he wasn't far from it. Kakashi could destroy Tsunade though; he's much faster, has more skills, has insane durability and stamina, has piercing moves etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Obviously, just get back to me when you can.


I never said you were rude. You are quite polite you just feel very strongly about your opinions and posts in general which isn't a bad trait to have. Feats favor Tsunade more than Kakashi. I have Tsunade beating Kakashi. She has high reaction speed, isn't slow by any means, has some of the best durability and chakra feats in the manga, an easy one hit kill taijutsu move, regeneration, an indestructible summon, and more.

I need more rest...


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Doesn't change the fact both had killing offensive intent.
> I actually am not someone who says Kamui gg for formal matches.
> People who say this are generally 70% comic relief and maybe 30% serious.



Proportionally speaking, the odds of Kakashi using offsenive Kamui in 1v1 fights early is non existent and unlikely at point in the battle. Based on the manga.

Generally I allow for 1 or 2 matches for Kamui GG out of 10


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 24, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Proportionally speaking, the odds of Kakashi using offsenive Kamui in 1v1 fights early is non existent and unlikely at point in the battle. Based on the manga.
> 
> Generally I allow for 1 or 2 matches for Kamui GG out of 10


Consistency is indeed important. 
The way I do it is:

We already know he uses Kamui offensively when he needs/wants to.
Is he in a situation where he _should_ use Kamui? 
If so, how likely is he to opt for it?
If he _doesn't_ need to use it, why not? 
If not opting for it, then what else does he do and why? 
What happens next?
As far as I know, he doesn't shy away from Kamui'ing humans nor biju-sized heads etc.
He just does whatever he needs to do at the time. I'm guessing you'll disagree with this statement, but I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Consistency is indeed important.
> The way I do it is:
> 
> We already know he uses Kamui offensively when he needs/wants to.
> ...



I disagree because there are plenty of times when using Kamui GG would have been the best option to save time and to avoid putting teammates in danger. 

I also disagree because of the lack of using Kamui Offensively in 1v1s.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 25, 2019)

AmitDS said:


> His only hope is kamui and in a close encounter he'd be pressed to pull it off while she charges at him and unleashes her attacks. Katsuyu would make is far worse.


You really think that Tsunade "unleashing her attacks" is going to be fast enough to somehow circumvent Kamui? We've repeatedly established in this thread that Tsunade fans believe that she only needs to land *one* hit to kill Kakashi. Well if it's so obvious that she is such a threat, Kakashi himself would understand the danger of letting himself get tagged by her. And do you know what has been repeatedly established in the manga? Kamui is one of the fastest and most powerful defensive tools you could have. Tsunade "unleashing her attacks" is not going to be faster than the nail that Deva flung at Kakashi. Or Sasuke's Susanoo arrow. Or even the clone of Naruto that Kakashi warped in the blink of an eye. You can ignore Kamui's offensive potential completely and it's still too much for Tsunade to overcome. If she somehow gains the upperhand in a CQC situation, and she's as deadly as you say, Kakashi won't hesitate to warp a fist flying at his face. And he wouldn't need to stop at her fist.


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## Grinningfox (Jun 25, 2019)

She gets Kamui’d 10/10 times due to her fighting style


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 25, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Consistency is indeed important.
> The way I do it is:
> 
> We already know he uses Kamui offensively when he needs/wants to.
> ...



The problem is that most people can't even put half the effort required to analyse his fights properly.

It's very obvious why he didn't use Kamui that much, without mentioning 2 big drawbacks, MS blindness and MS after effects/which diminished during the WA



Shazam said:


> I disagree because there are plenty of times when using Kamui GG would have been the best option to save time and to avoid putting teammates in danger.
> 
> I also disagree because of the lack of using Kamui Offensively in 1v1s.



Any examples?

Like he attempted vs Deidara/ Obito and said he would also do so vs Kakuzu?

Kakashi has implied/attempted usage on 3 Akatsuki members and he even prepped it vs the Akatsuki in the Sasuke retrieval after Itachi so "lack" of usage is more related to circumstance than his own willingness.


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## LostSelf (Jun 25, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I concede to this then, however it still marks 0 times used or intended to use in a 1v1 situation. I suppose it would show that Kakashi is willing to use Kamui offensively. The question now becomes at what point and against what opponent does this become a reality in a 1v1 when its never been done ? Otherwise you're left with saying Kamui GG against any opponent he's up against.



But not using it in a one vs one situation doesn't mean he won't. As he showed the proficiency and mindset of killing people with it. 

It can vary, but let me give you an example we both might agree with, following on a time Kakashi used Kamui: Susano'o arrow. Let's assume Kakashi is fighting Tsunade, like in this thread. The fight goes on and, while Tsunade regens from Kakashi's hits, she sooner or later puts him in a position where she's going to punch him and he can't dodge it.

In said scenario, wich is likely, Tsunade would be Kamui'd GG like he did to the arrow, as it was his only chance of surviving.



Shazam said:


> Let me know what you find



Alright, the first time we have Kakashi with Kyuubi chakra was when Obito was unmasked and is sent to Kamui land. There is the first time Kurama tells Naruto he can give chakra, never before was that mentioned and before that Naruto and Kakashi likely hadn't touched the other.




Here Kakashi says he'd put enough chakra into Kamui,wich means he charged it. The only thing we can get from this is that the bigger the Kamui, the longer it will take for him to launch it, but after it's launched, it can act extremely fast.

After that, and when Kakashi is almost out of chakra, he can pinpoint a Rasengan when Naruto's moving towards Obito with enough speed. And before that he was using Kamui fast enough like a sniper. 

Considering this, at the very least, Kakashi can use Kamui almost instantly to things of the size of a Susano'o arrow, wich is larger than a human body. And can use Kamui fast enough to warp targets as small as Kunais or missiles. So theres hould be no problem in him doing it in 1 vs 1 battles as he doesn't have to stand still and can do so while the enemy moves unless his opponent is a speedy character or one that can overwhelm him quick.

The one where he tries to warp Gedo's arm is after Minato is there, which he does quickly enough and likely had Kurama's chakra. But Kakashi warping Gedo's head makes any argument about Kakashi only warping big sized objects thanks to Kurama null, as he did it without it (Just like he did it to the explosion).



Shazam said:


> At the time Kakashi would have been more concerned with saving the village and the villagers. Nothing would have been more important than that. If it meant the delay of Pain's assault and saving lives of the villagers and his comrades, Kakashi would have been intending to kill any path he could above all else and figure the rest out later. (he knows Naruto was training)



And he did. He thought he could kill Deva by himself and even had a plan to do it. Deva just surprised him and in the end, it was too late. It was either kill Deva, wich would've amounted to nothing, or save Choji who had the information.



Shazam said:


> How can he both be trying to kill and gain information? If that Raikiri landed he wouldn't have got anything from Tendo. Meaning Kamui GG should have been his first option of attack. But it wasn't. This would have been his best chance to show us Kamui being used in 1v1.



Why can't you do both at the same time? You can try to kill someone and gather information when he's trying to defend himself. Remember that Tendo was not the real one right there and they were acting based on Jiraiya's knowledge.

We don't need a 1 vs 1 encounter to say one's going to use it in battles. We need to look at the context behind their decisions. Kamui is not like the 8th gate, where Gai has a rule with it. Kamui can be used perfectly and like I said above, considering how much it wasted Kakashi in the pain arc, using it freely against a path that was going to be revived was not the best idea.

The best course of action was trying to kill Tendo through other means, but that just backfired with Asura appearing out of nowhere when everybody thought it was dead.

The entire fight with Tendo looked like Kakashi was going to kill him without Kamui, therefore, not using it here doesn't mean he is not adept at using it 1 vs 1.

But like I said, we only need to see him using it offensively to say he'll use it against someone in battles. And considering what I said above about Kakashi snipping Kunais at pinpoint accuracy in less than a second (considering these are superhuman shinobis that should move quite fast), it's far from far fetched to say he needs backup to use these in single combat.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AmitDS (Jun 25, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> No offence meant, but you're stating a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions.
> 
> Kakashi on low health/chakra can comfortably warp 1/2 a Biju-sized object ().
> He fought much longer than Tsunade and took much more hits. Read my to SakuraLover16.
> ...



Unsubstantiated? *Kakashi told Naruto when training for the rasenshuriken that he doesn't have much chakra to begin with*. Tsunade has a higher stamina score in databook 3 which is around chapter 400 and she's part Uzumaki AND has her entire seal's worth of chakra. Whatever stamina Kakashi has, Tsunade at full power has more. Tsunade survived Mabui's transfer technique and only activated her regeneration after, something that was thought impossible for anyone outside of the 3rd raikage and his descendant, Ai. Tsunade was chopped and sliced by Orochimaru in part one and still was able to get up and kick him, without him noticing until after being hit and this was before she activated her regeneration. There is nothing in the manga or databooks that support Tsunade having less chakra/stamina than Kakashi.

Furthermore databook 4 states that Hashirama could use his regeneration due to his large reserves but Tsunade, had way less chakra than him naturally, needed to combine creation rebirth with her yin seal to get the necessary reserve to use regeneration for an extended period of time therefore me saying that her seal is app. tailed beast leveled in terms of chakra reserves is not unfounded, especially when Hashirama has a little more chakra than KCM Naruto and people like Ai naturally have tailed beast levels of chakra. 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> You really think that Tsunade "unleashing her attacks" is going to be fast enough to somehow circumvent Kamui? We've repeatedly established in this thread that Tsunade fans believe that she only needs to land *one* hit to kill Kakashi. Well if it's so obvious that she is such a threat, Kakashi himself would understand the danger of letting himself get tagged by her. And do you know what has been repeatedly established in the manga? Kamui is one of the fastest and most powerful defensive tools you could have. Tsunade "unleashing her attacks" is not going to be faster than the nail that Deva flung at Kakashi. Or Sasuke's Susanoo arrow. Or even the clone of Naruto that Kakashi warped in the blink of an eye. You can ignore Kamui's offensive potential completely and it's still too much for Tsunade to overcome. If she somehow gains the upperhand in a CQC situation, and she's as deadly as you say, Kakashi won't hesitate to warp a fist flying at his face. And he wouldn't need to stop at her fist.



Depending on distance and Tsunade's knowledge of staying out of his line of sight, she can actually run up on him and use her strength to upend the earth/summon katsuyu before he gets a chance to look at her and kamui her. Tsunade knows about his kamui and sharingan related techniques generally requiring them focusing their sight on the target. Tsunade was able to react to Madara's fireballs before any of the other kage could and while heavily injured could blitz Orochimaru. Saying that Tsunade, who mastered evasion, who can create explosions on the ground and who has intel in kamui can probably get a move in, in a close/mid ranged confrontation is not as ridiculous as you all make it out to be. And honestly kamui is his only chance at beating any of the sannin in the first place.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 25, 2019)

AmitDS said:


> Depending on distance and Tsunade's knowledge of staying out of his line of sight, she can actually run up on him and use her strength to upend the earth/summon katsuyu before he gets a chance to look at her and kamui her. Tsunade knows about his kamui and sharingan related techniques generally requiring them focusing their sight on the target. Tsunade was able to react to Madara's fireballs before any of the other kage could and while heavily injured could blitz Orochimaru. Saying that Tsunade, who mastered evasion, who can create explosions on the ground and who has intel in kamui can probably get a move in, in a close/mid ranged confrontation is not as ridiculous as you all make it out to be. And honestly kamui is his only chance at beating any of the sannin in the first place.


Sure... if you ignore Kakashi's intellect, use of feints and trickery, and his more than adequate stats in speed and taijutsu. His reaction speed when using Kamui defensively is nearly _instant_ and his fighting style is designed specifically to avoid taking risks while gathering intel on his opponent. It will be a lot harder for Tsunade to avoid Kamui than it will be for Kakashi to gain line of sight.


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## Symmetry (Jun 27, 2019)

Samael said:


> Because her punching the ground wouldn't have causes the same results



Bos Sakura stronger then tsunade confirmed?




Samael said:


> Show us them attempting to do this, since they were unable to that mean it was attempted right?




Well we know for a fact Madara had killer intent, so he either is an idiot and didn’t think to stab her in the head, he did think to but was unable, or he did do it and it didn’t kill her. One of those three happened, but I’m under the pretends that Madara would figure out to stab her in the head, or split her vertically in half.


I suppose he could be dumb tho


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## Anime Zone (Jun 27, 2019)

Kakashi fanboys lol!! The delusion is painful.


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