# Zoro vs Jinbe



## Zyrax D Buggy (Jul 25, 2013)

Mindset: Both are bloodlusted

Location: Marineford

No holds barred
Jinbe is allowed to summon his whale sharks

This is post skip Zoro


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 25, 2013)

Zoro medium diff in worst case scenario.
Jinbei gets turned into sushi


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

Jinbe takes this high, possibly extreme difficulty. He's either equal to or a bit stronger than Luffy, whom we all know is Zoro's superior (bar a little fairy named *Zorofangirl24*).


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## Shanks (Jul 25, 2013)

Trance said:


> Jinbe takes this high, possibly extreme difficulty. He's either equal to or a bit stronger than Luffy, whom we all know is Zoro's superior (bar a little fairy named *Zorofangirl24*).



No Zoro isn't superior. Zoro may be able to cut Luffy if the sword connects, but keep in mind Zoro is a strong swordsmen not speed swordsmen. That said, Zoro would be eat dirt before he can even make a move with Gear 2nd.

Mihawk could not stop pre-skip Luffy. What makes people thing Zoro can do better, now that Luffy is much stronger?


On topic, Zoro would probably win extreme difficulty.


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## Extravlad (Jul 25, 2013)

Zoro kill him high diff.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> No Zoro isn't superior. Zoro may be able to cut Luffy if the sword connects, but keep in mind Zoro is a strong swordsmen not speed swordsmen. That said, Zoro would be eat dirt before he can even make a move with Gear 2nd.
> 
> Mihawk could not stop pre-skip Luffy. What makes people thing Zoro can do better, now that Luffy is much stronger?.



 

Read my post again. I clearly indicated Luffy is Zoro's superior. Unless you were talking about my reference to *Zorofangirl24* thinking Zoro is superior to Luffy?


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## Kishido (Jul 25, 2013)

Jinbe, as Franky in Water 7, fought Luffy for 3 panels on equal footing... He even blocked a hakiless gear 2 punch like Base Hyozou... So he is equal to Luffy... Same as he was equal to 2nd commander Ace cuz he once fought him to a draw... He takes it extreme dif or loses cuz of Zoro's equality to Luffy.

The new monster trio will be interesting


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## tanman (Jul 25, 2013)

All Strawhats can take an assault from Luffy and cause some serious damage. We saw that in Luffy v. Ussop. Of course, Jinbe was given much better portrayal than that. For me, it seemed he was being put on equal footing with Sanji. However, his abilities are built to suppress fighters like Zoro. It could go either way at this point. But I'm certain by the time we see Zoro and Sanji go all out in this saga's end, they will be clearly and plainly superior.


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## Mihawk (Jul 25, 2013)

Roronoa high-extreme diff.

Anyone who thinks that Luffy or Zoro can mid diff Jinbe need to reread the brief, yet somewhat substantial clash between Luffy(who is stronger than Zoro) & Jinbe in FI, where they both respectively took each other's attacks head on, and clashed evenly, as well as the portrayal of both Sanji & Jinbe in their fight against Wadatsumi. 

All these, as well as Jinbe having been in the same ballpark as Iva & Ace(the strongest of those 3 for sure) point to him being a solid M3 level fighter, and if you think Zoro can still cut him down with medium difficulty or that it is somehow a walk in the park for him, then there really is no hope or cure for you.


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## Kishido (Jul 25, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Roronoa high-extreme diff.
> 
> Anyone who thinks that Luffy or Zoro can mid diff Jinbe need to reread the brief, yet somewhat substantial clash between Luffy(who is stronger than Zoro) & Jinbe in FI, where they both respectively took each other's attacks head on, and clashed evenly, *as well as the portrayal of both Sanji & Jinbe in their fight against Wadatsumi. *
> 
> All these, as well as Jinbe having been in the same ballpark as Iva & *Ace*(the strongest of those 3 for sure) point to him being a solid M3 level fighter, and if you think Zoro can still cut him down with medium difficulty or that it is somehow a walk in the park for him, then there really is no hope or cure for you.



Yeah and Sanji and Jinbe will always stay close cuz Jinbe will grow just as much as JSanji... Same as Jinbe's growth was always the same as Ace, the 2nd commander of the WB pirates


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## Lawliet (Jul 25, 2013)

tanman said:


> All Strawhats can take an assault from Luffy and cause some serious damage. We saw that in Luffy v. Ussop. Of course, Jinbe was given much better portrayal than that. For me, it seemed he was being put on equal footing with Sanji. However, his abilities are built to suppress fighters like Zoro. It could go either way at this point. But I'm certain by the time we see Zoro and Sanji go all out in this saga's end, they will be clearly and plainly superior.



Do not use Luffy vs Usopp cuz that's just a fail argument. Luffy did not want to fight, he was trying to avoid fighting Usopp at all cost. post skip, a serious , going all out Luffy can probably solo the SHs excluding Zoro and Sanji without receiving more than 5 hits. 5 hits that would do him no harm at all.


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## Lawliet (Jul 25, 2013)

Kishido said:


> Yeah and Sanji and Jinbe will always stay close cuz Jinbe will grow just as much as JSanji... Same as Jinbe's growth was always the same as Ace, the 2nd commander of the WB pirates



dude, Jinbei never had the same growth as Ace.... Jinbei was a well known pirate long before Ace became a pirate. Yet, Ace managed to get strong and match jinbei in a fight none of them won. That a lone tells us that their grown is not even clsoe. Ace's growth is higher than Jinbei's. Ace is Roger's son, if Oda never magma fist-ed Ace, Luffy would never become the PK if Ace wanted that title lol


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## MayuriKurotsuchisaNazi (Jul 25, 2013)

Honestly, I think Zoro, Luffy and Sanji are equal to Jinbe at this point.

Anyone can take it. It'll be an all-out battle that'll leave the winner on death's door.


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## Kishido (Jul 25, 2013)

No shit?  So Sanji may got stronger than him? Nahhh... Can't see it... A cook stronger... LOL... The arguments still stands and are used for Jinbe...

Dat Jinbe once fought Ace to a draw...
Oh wait Franky did so as well and Hyozou blocked a gear 2 as well... 

Dat Jinbe will have the same growth as the other SHs... 
Oh wait your argument... or Ace suddenly stopped growing much with his potential after joining the WBs and was reduced to the level of Jinbe's growth... Sanji's on the other hand will fall back compared to Luffy and Zoro sooner or later... or it already happened

So either Jinbe will be grouped with Luffy/Zoro as mere combatants building a new monster fighter trio where we will discuss Jinbe vs Zoro like here around... or he will be grouped with Sanji and both will have the same growth meaning Zoro will beat him mid dif later


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## tanman (Jul 25, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Do not use Luffy vs Usopp cuz that's just a fail argument. Luffy did not want to fight, he was trying to avoid fighting Usopp at all cost. post skip, a serious , going all out Luffy can probably solo the SHs excluding Zoro and Sanji without receiving more than 5 hits. 5 hits that would do him no harm at all.



Luffy was completely complicit in the fight. To not fight would have been disrespectful to both Usopp and his crew. You should seriously take another look at the context of that scene. Despite what many like to believe, no Strawhat is fodder to another Strawhat. Oda has made that clear as he possibly could. Sorry.


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## Kishido (Jul 25, 2013)

Yet one "serious" punch was enough... And that was pre gears Luffy


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## tanman (Jul 25, 2013)

Usopp took several hits, blocked one, and had Luffy bleeding severely by the fights end. He was also half dead before the fight even began. One serious punch was _not_ enough at all.

No one the crew has a Whitebeard/Ace relationship with Luffy. He can stomp no one.


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## Kishido (Jul 25, 2013)

He was FODDERIZED by Jabura who was barely trying... And Sanji needed to step in and fight his fight... Same as against Mr 2... But Luffy probably is weaker than those characters, thats why Usopp was able to be non fodder for him... 

And to your several hits

There were 2 hits... 

As Luffy started his FIRST attack Usopp faked to have something and the "SERIOUS" Luffy stopped...



Luffy's gatling was stopped by this


He "tanked" one loser pistol


The bazooka was absorbed by the dial


The Bullet finished him off


But yeah Usopp really tanked "several" hits and the most strongest attack by serious Luffy *with gears and all*, which he showed some chapters later against someone as Lucchi, who was twice as strong as the guy who FODDERIZED him.

God this forum seriously has some stupid shit around


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## tanman (Jul 25, 2013)

Kishido said:


> Yeah of course... So he would take several gear 2 attacks as well when at 100 % health... Oh wait later he was FODDERIZED by Jabura who was barely trying... And Sanji needed to step in and fight his fight... Same as against Mr 2... But Luffy probably is weaker than those characters, thats why Usopp was able to be non fodder for him



That's a ridiculous comparison and you know it.
First of all Water 7 Usopp and EL Usopp are different the same way that Water 7 Luffy and EL Luffy are different. Jyabura purposefully had Usopp drop his guard before he attacked. He claimed that he didn't want to fight, and he wanted them to rescue Robin as well. Then he unloaded a ten shigan in full zoan. Totally fair fight, right?

I recall Vivi fighting Mr. 2, but I don't recall Usopp doing so. Could you point me to it?



Kishido said:


> He was FODDERIZED by Jabura who was barely trying... And Sanji needed to step in and fight his fight... Same as against Mr 2... But Luffy probably is weaker than those characters, thats why Usopp was able to be non fodder for him...
> 
> And to your several hits
> 
> But yeah Usopp really tanked several hits and the most strongest attack by serious Luffy with gears and all, which he showed some chapters later against someone as Lucchi, who was twice as strong as the guy who FODDERIZED him



You are correct in your analysis. My count was three including the impact dial hit, which is why I sad several. Your links concur with what I said. 

Again, Luffy didn't have gears at that point, so I don't know what point you're trying to make. That he was holding back? He certainly was not as he didn't have access to a higher level combat by that point. By the time Luffy gained gears, the Usopp fighting him would have gotten stronger as well.

Again, I have no idea what Lucci has to do with it. jyabura's attack was a surprise attack. Do you honestly think Luffy could fodderize Kalifa, let alone Jyabura (despite beating someone "twice" his level)? I can't quite tell if you're trolling or you're serious. I can never really tell with you.


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## Kishido (Jul 25, 2013)

Read my edited post or reread the manga... Seriously no need to talk with you

And yeah Mr 2 kicked Usopp's ass and stole his googles... That's why Sanji was there to get them back... But as I said above read the manga... Same for Jabura... He played with him all the time... if he would be serious from the beginning he would be dead... Sanji stepped in once again and even quoted that he will do what Usopp can't do and the other way around... Meaining he fights Jabura cuz Usopp can't... An other example... Even Franky said that he stands no chance against Lucchi... So how can Usopp give Luffy a serious fight...

So why Lucchi... You claim that Usopp can give Luffy a good fight and such shit, while everyone at the SHs admitted only Luffy can fight him and a guy half as strong kicked Usopp's ass... but yeah that Usopp can give Luffy a hard fight... Cuz he took 2 hits of more basic moves.

What's next... EOS Usopp giving prime WB a good match?

PS 
Do you think Luffy would have been beaten up by the Franky Family as well to that time while Luffy alone took on EL at first


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## tanman (Jul 25, 2013)

You're just ranting at this point. No discussion. No conversation. Just your side.
I asked for a scan. I've been looking for it. You tell me to "reread the manga." Thanks for the tip.
But don't mind me. I'm just trying to have a logical discussion about the series. No hard feelings.


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## Rob (Jul 25, 2013)

A Low-Top Tier vs Jimbei!? 

C'mon OL


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## Kishido (Jul 25, 2013)

tanman said:


> You're just ranting at this point. No discussion. No conversation. Just your side.
> I asked for a scan. I've been looking for it. You tell me to "reread the manga." Thanks for the tip.
> But don't mind me. I'm just trying to have a logical discussion about the series. No hard feelings.



Here he confirmed  a beating up by Mr 2... *In 1 second*



Usopp admitting he couldn't handle Jabura and Sanji stating that he will do what Usopp can't do... Meaning beating Jabura




But well you are right... I'm ranting but a serious discussion is not possible with you after all if you are twisting facts as you want them to be or you are not even knowing them... So I will do so as well and say

- Luffy would have been beaten easily by Mr 2 and Jabura as well while Lucchi was twice as strong

- Luffy would have been beaten by Franky Family as well while Usopp would have been able to took on EL till Blueno on his own

- Luffy would have been OHKOED by Ryuuma as well as Usopp and Co

And so on... And all this cuz Usopp took 2 basic hits... Awesome... Next time it will be Nami... Usopp in the meanwhile will stop DoFla for some time in a serious fight and his awesome haki... He won't be fodder as Smoker to him


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 25, 2013)

People are debating Usopp's power level?? Usopp was stated to be the weakest SH and would currently lose to any CP9 member 
Franky family a bunch of fodders just stripped Usopp of his shit then beat him up LOL


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## Rob (Jul 25, 2013)

^I kno rite! 

This isn't about Noobsopp! 

This is about Grandmaster Zolo!


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## Etherborn (Jul 25, 2013)

tanman said:


> All Strawhats can take an assault from Luffy and cause some serious damage. We saw that in Luffy v. Ussop.



All I saw in Luffy vs. Usopp was Luffy taking pity on his  injured friend, not going all out as only a heartless bastard would be able to do so, and stopping in his tracks in the middle of an attack because Usopp faked lethal injury using ketchup. It was the most prepped and staged fight in the entire series and Luffy still won while his empathy was holding him back.



tanman said:


> Luffy was completely complicit in the fight. To not fight would have been disrespectful to both Usopp and his crew. You should seriously take another look at the context of that scene. Despite what many like to believe, no Strawhat is fodder to another Strawhat. Oda has made that clear as he possibly could. Sorry.



Oh yea. I can see how holding back against an injured comrade would have been dishonorable. Much more dishonorable than leaving the crew over a ship, challenging the captain to a fight, attempting to fix the fight by laying traps beforehand, and then taking advantage of your opponent's kindness by faking injury during said fight.



tanman said:


> Usopp took several hits, blocked one, and had Luffy bleeding severely by the fights end. He was also half dead before the fight even began. One serious punch was _not_ enough at all.



He tanked _one_, and only one. One that was held back by pity I might add. He blocked one with the impact dial, and then the next one finished him. 



> No one the crew has a Whitebeard/Ace relationship with Luffy. He can stomp no one.



He can stomp everyone except for Zoro and Sanji.



tanman said:


> That's a ridiculous comparison and you know it.
> First of all Water 7 Usopp and EL Usopp are different the same way that Water 7 Luffy and EL Luffy are different. Jyabura purposefully had Usopp drop his guard before he attacked. He claimed that he didn't want to fight, and he wanted them to rescue Robin as well. Then he unloaded a ten shigan in full zoan. Totally fair fight, right?



Ok. All that proves is that Jyabura is an ass. Notice how that worked on Usopp but not Sanji. Jyabura was playing around during that fight, but Usopp and Nami still didn't stand a chance. Sanij was on a different level, which is why he was able to defeat him. Jyabura would destroy Usopp in any fight, even if it was fixed in Usopp's favor. He's too fast, too strong, and too durable. Usopp couldn't even break his tekkai. 



> You are correct in your analysis. My count was three including the impact dial hit, which is why I sad several. Your links concur with what I said.



Absorbing a blow with an impact dial counts? Ok...then he was able to take two, since the third one ended the fight. 



> Again, Luffy didn't have gears at that point, so I don't know what point you're trying to make. That he was holding back? He certainly was not as he didn't have access to a higher level combat by that point. By the time Luffy gained gears, the Usopp fighting him would have gotten stronger as well.



Stronger how? You mean because he had a bigger slingshot? The only thing that improved was his ability to take damage, but nothing on the level of Lucci or Ennies Lobby Luffy's attacks.



> Again, I have no idea what Lucci has to do with it. jyabura's attack was a surprise attack.



Right, because Usopp totally could have beaten Jyabura if he hadn't been cheated. That's why he tried to steal the key in his sleep. Never mind the fact that he got casually bitch slapped into a wall once Jyabura woke up.



> Do you honestly think Luffy could fodderize Kalifa



Yes. Based on his performence against Blueno while he was still getting used to his gears, and his performence against Lucci, who was literally more than 5 times stronger than Kalifa, Ennies Lobby Luffy would casually wipe the floor with Kalifa.



> let alone Jyabura (despite beating someone "twice" his level)? I can't quite tell if you're trolling or you're serious. I can never really tell with you.



Luffy wouldn't fodderize Jyabura, but he would win low difficulty. Sanji won mid difficulty, and Luffy was pretty far ahead of him. I don't think you understand the meaning of being twice as fast, twice as strong, and twice as durable. It makes a big difference. Jyabura isn't going to tank a barrage of G2 attacks from the Luffy that beat Lucci.

On topic: I'm leaning towards Jinbe.


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2013)

Jinbei was equal to Ace before Ace even joined the WB pirates. There is no way that Ace at that point was as strong as than current Zoro. Zoro somewhat high diff.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

barreltheif said:


> Jinbei was equal to Ace before Ace even joined the WB pirates. There is no way that Ace at that point was as strong as than current Zoro. Zoro somewhat high diff.



This is kinda outlandish and perhaps radical but what if Jinbe got stronger than from when he fought Ace?


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 25, 2013)

Zoro > MF Jinbei >> Ace > Sanji
Ace got one shotted by a punch to the back whereas Jinbei was OK


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## Halcyon (Jul 25, 2013)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> He can stomp everyone except for Zoro and Sanji.


I agree with everything else you said regarding Usopp except this. He might stomp Ussop and Nami, and low diff Chopper, but he's not stomping the Mid3.


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## Thebest1 (Jul 25, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> People are debating Usopp's power level?? Usopp was stated to be the weakest SH and would currently lose to any CP9 member
> Franky family a bunch of fodders just stripped Usopp of his shit then beat him up LOL


Dude no, just no. 2nd weakest sure, but the manga clearly does not indicate weakest. BTW you an idiot if you think current Usopp loses to all of the CP9 members


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## Thebest1 (Jul 25, 2013)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> All I saw in Luffy vs. Usopp was Luffy taking pity on his  injured friend, not going all out as only a heartless bastard would be able to do so, and stopping in his tracks in the middle of an attack because Usopp faked lethal injury using ketchup. It was the most prepped and staged fight in the entire series and Luffy still won while his empathy was holding him back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I doubt luffy would have beaten Jyabura low diff because it even took mid diff to beat Blueno while Jyabura is stronger


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## Bitty (Jul 25, 2013)

Halcyon 5 said:


> I agree with everything else you said regarding Usopp except this. He might stomp Ussop and Nami, and low diff Chopper, but he's not stomping the Mid3.



you think Brook can push a fighter like Law to mid-diff?
can Robin push Luffy to mid-diff?
or can Franky push Zoro or Smoker to mid-diff?

Zoro low-diffed Monet...who was portrayed stronger than Robin.
Brook couldn't even keep up with the Zoro vs Ryuuma fight.
Monster Chopper was 1 shotted by a casual Luffy.
Franky was done in by Lucci....who Luffy went to fight evenly with in all out battle.
Sanji & Zoro being the only ones getting up after Kuma's Ursus Shock.....& so many other instances where the m3 have been portrayed on a another level....than the rest of the crew.  Mid3 don't even have haki.

I honestly can't even see any of the mid trio surviving 1 or 2 serious DJ attackz from Sanji....especially pre-skip when it two-shotted, burning through the tekkai of a top cp9 member & deflected a bazooka from Oars.....post-skip I think Shogun Franky has a slight chance.


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## tanman (Jul 25, 2013)

Kishido said:


> Here he confirmed  a beating up by Mr 2... *In 1 second*



That incident was both comedic relief and it was off-panel. Essentially, it's evidence of nothing.




Kishido said:


> Usopp admitting he couldn't handle Jabura and Sanji stating that he will do what Usopp can't do... Meaning beating Jabura



Of course Usopp couldn't handle Jyabura. I never said he could. I said that he, and by extension no other Strawhat, could be fodderized by another Strawhat or Strawhat level character. You're pushing my opinion to the extreme in order to create a straw man to argue against.




Kishido said:


> But well you are right... I'm ranting but a serious discussion is not possible with you after all if you are twisting facts as you want them to be or you are not even knowing them... So I will do so as well and say



I am not twisting any facts. I'm simply reading the manga as it was written. In what way is anything that I've said been false. The only things that you could possibly disagree with are the inferences that I'm making.




Kishido said:


> - Luffy would have been beaten easily by Mr 2 and Jabura as well while Lucchi was twice as strong
> 
> - Luffy would have been beaten by Franky Family as well while Usopp would have been able to took on EL till Blueno on his own
> 
> ...



I really don't understand what you're saying here, but I know that I disagree with most of these things. I don't understand what is so mind boggling about Usopp holding his own against powerful fighters. But all you're doing is expressing bewilderment. 




Transcendent Samurai said:


> All I saw in Luffy vs. Usopp was Luffy taking pity on his  injured friend, not going all out as only a heartless bastard would be able to do so, and stopping in his tracks in the middle of an attack because Usopp faked lethal injury using ketchup. It was the most prepped and staged fight in the entire series and Luffy still won while his empathy was holding him back.



If that's your opinion, I believe you are severely underestimating the values of the Strawhats. Sanji and Zoro made it very clear that Usopp and Luffy's duel was  serious and any less would be an insult to Usopp. Sanji felt sorry for Usopp because he was _spared_ not because he was eaten. Such is the ironclad mutual respect that crew members share for each other and the sanctity of a duel. Usopp's tricks are a part of his fighting style. It's textbook databookiness to discard them and only look at physical stats and lazorz. 





Transcendent Samurai said:


> Oh yea. I can see how holding back against an injured comrade would have been dishonorable. Much more dishonorable than leaving the crew over a ship, challenging the captain to a fight, attempting to fix the fight by laying traps beforehand, and then taking advantage of your opponent's kindness by faking injury during said fight.



You have a serious dearth of understanding regarding Water 7. Usopp didn't call to question his loyalty by leaving the crew, he _demonstrated_ his loyalty. It was Usopp's conviction towards his crew mates that caused him to consider leaving. And it was the immaturity and stubbornness that he shares with Luffy that made him actually leave. Luffy holding back would have been disrespectful to Usopp as an always loyal crew mate.




Transcendent Samurai said:


> He tanked _one_, and only one. One that was held back by pity I might add. He blocked one with the impact dial, and then the next one finished him.



It would be excellent if you could somehow bring forth evidence of this pity. Unfortunately, you can't because Oda wouldn't write something so belittling into his crew dynamic.




Transcendent Samurai said:


> He can stomp everyone except for Zoro and Sanji.



He can't. I've already discussed why, and I don't want to get repetitive.




Transcendent Samurai said:


> Ok. All that proves is that Jyabura is an ass. Notice how that worked on Usopp but not Sanji. Jyabura was playing around during that fight, but Usopp and Nami still didn't stand a chance. Sanij was on a different level, which is why he was able to defeat him. Jyabura would destroy Usopp in any fight, even if it was fixed in Usopp's favor. He's too fast, too strong, and too durable. Usopp couldn't even break his tekkai.



 Of course, Usopp couldn't defeat Jyabura. However, to claim that he couldn't have held his own were it not for the trick is ridiculous. We've seen it time and time again, yet people for some reason prefer not to believe it. Oda has made a trope of the underdog overcoming the villain with intelligence and willpower. I don't understand how saying that the trick "worked on" Usopp is an argument at all.




Transcendent Samurai said:


> Absorbing a blow with an impact dial counts? Ok...then he was able to take two, since the third one ended the fight.



You're literally just changing the measuring stick not the canon.




Transcendent Samurai said:


> Stronger how? You mean because he had a bigger slingshot? The only thing that improved was his ability to take damage, but nothing on the level of Lucci or Ennies Lobby Luffy's attacks.



 Perhaps an analogy will better clear this up.  As water condenses in your shower, drops tend to fall at generally the same speed. It follows that it will take longer for a drop formed higher up on the wall to reach the bottom. However, the lower drop still progresses at the same rate. Essentially, the Strawhats have had a reasonably constant dynamic between them. They are all with in each other's range as evidenced by Luffy v. Ussop, Luffy v. Franky, Brooke v. Zoro, etc besides the occasional spike in power (Zoro v. Daz, Luffy v. Crocodile, Luffy v. Lucci). So Luffy will inevitably reach the bottom first. But even his weakest member will never be fodder for him while they're still falling to the bottom.




Transcendent Samurai said:


> Right, because Usopp totally could have beaten Jyabura if he hadn't been cheated. That's why he tried to steal the key in his sleep. Never mind the fact that he got casually bitch slapped into a wall once Jyabura woke up.



Did I say that? You're arguing against what you think I think rather than what I actually think.



Transcendent Samurai said:


> Yes. Based on his performence against Blueno while he was still getting used to his gears, and his performence against Lucci, who was literally more than 5 times stronger than Kalifa, Ennies Lobby Luffy would casually wipe the floor with Kalifa.



I disagree with you as much as someone could possibly disagree with someone, but I doubt anything short of a canonical battle between the two of them could provide unequivocal evidence for you. So you win that one. :thumb





Transcendent Samurai said:


> Luffy wouldn't fodderize Jyabura, but he would win low difficulty. Sanji won mid difficulty, and Luffy was pretty far ahead of him. I don't think you understand the meaning of being twice as fast, twice as strong, and twice as durable. It makes a big difference. Jyabura isn't going to tank a barrage of G2 attacks from the Luffy that beat Lucci.



You have a far more severe misunderstanding of just how deeply Oda has worked in the manga to keep characters, regardless of their level of strength, speed, and durability, relevant. No. Luffy could not low diff Jyabura. Oda has carefully balanced out these characters so that almost anyone could hold out against almost anyone. Regardless of rokushiki, Jyabura  was perfectly willing to stand up against Lucci. Regardless of Haki, Crocodile was perfectly williing to stand up against Doflamingo. Do you know why? It's because as much as we like to talk about tiers, everyone in One Piece is basically on the same tier. That’s the way it's been written. Physical power is trivial. It can be overcome. Willpower can give Luffy the strength to defeat Lucci. Intelligence can give the World Government the power to overcome Whitebeard. Trickery can give  the power defeat his captain.


*I think I'm getting a bit too worked up about this. I just feel quite strongly about this particular subject. I apologize if I've been rude or condescending.*


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## Halcyon (Jul 25, 2013)

8Bit said:


> you think Brook can push a fighter like Law to mid-diff?
> can Robin push Luffy to mid-diff?
> or can Franky push Zoro or Smoker to mid-diff?
> 
> ...


Well, when you lay it all out like that... 

My apologies, I guess I hadn't realized that the M3 are that far ahead after the TS. When I posted this, I was mostly thinking of Shogun Franky.

There are a few gripes I have with this, but overall I'd say you're right. I was mainly saying that they wouldn't get stomped; low diff isn't necessarily a stomp.


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## Purple Tiger (Jul 25, 2013)

Zoro low-medium difficulty. 

Jinbe > Sanji.


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## Thebest1 (Jul 25, 2013)

Purple Tiger said:


> Zoro low-medium difficulty.
> 
> Jinbe > Sanji.


lol why do you have to scrutinize sanji in every post you make?


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## Purple Tiger (Jul 25, 2013)

It's because i must preach the truth.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

Purple Tiger said:


> Zoro low-medium difficulty.
> 
> Jinbe > Sanji.





Purple Tiger said:


> It's because i must preach the truth.


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## Etherborn (Jul 25, 2013)

tanman said:


> That incident was both comedic relief and it was off-panel. Essentially, it's evidence of nothing.



I can almost understand why you'd say that since the monster trio constantly gets beaten to a pulp by Nami, who can somehow harm a rubber man with a punch when she gets angry, but really? You're going to say that Usopp losing to Sanji's opponent was comic relief? Why did he lose? Because he wasn't trying? Was he holding back against an enemy during the climax of the Alabasta arc? Oda doesn't just have Strawhats lose to opponents they should be able to beat for comic relief. Usopp lost because he was too weak. It's as simple as that. It may have been comic relief, but that doesn't mean it was inaccurate. 



> Of course Usopp couldn't handle Jyabura. I never said he could. I said that he, and by extension no other Strawhat, could be fodderized by another Strawhat or Strawhat level character. You're pushing my opinion to the extreme in order to create a straw man to argue against.



Saying that Usopp could actually push Ennies Lobby Luffy in a fight is essentially saying that he's on the level of the stronger CP9. Luffy beat Blueno without even getting hurt while he was still getting used to his gears. During the fight with Lucci he improved even more. Are you saying Usopp could push Luffy more than Blueno did?



> I am not twisting any facts. I'm simply reading the manga as it was written. In what way is anything that I've said been false. The only things that you could possibly disagree with are the inferences that I'm making.



Are you really reading the manga? Let's look at some characters that fodderized Usopp who were then fodderized by Luffy. 

1.) Staring from the beginning, the Kuro pirates. They beat Usopp to a pulp, then they were owned by Luffy.

2.) In Alabasta, he got beat up by kung fu dudongs, who were then beaten by Luffy in a few seconds. Don't say it was comic relief. If he could have beaten them, he would have.

3.) In Water 7, he was beaten again by the Franky family, who Luffy proved he could beat quite easily. 

The only opponent Usopp has ever beaten that Luffy couldn't beat was Perona, for obvious reasons.



> If that's your opinion, I believe you are severely underestimating the values of the Strawhats. Sanji and Zoro made it very clear that Usopp and Luffy's duel was  serious and any less would be an insult to Usopp. Sanji felt sorry for Usopp because he was _spared_ not because he was eaten. Such is the ironclad mutual respect that crew members share for each other and the sanctity of a duel. Usopp's tricks are a part of his fighting style. It's textbook databookiness to discard them and only look at physical stats and lazorz.



Tricking your opponent is one thing. Taking advantage of the fact that they care for you to gain an edge is another. What Usopp did was pretty cowardly. Dude, there was no sanctity in that duel. Usopp was leaving the crew and trying to take the Going Merry with him. Luffy went easy on him out of pity. Even if he wanted to honor Usopp by going all out, do you really think he would as motivated as he was against Lucci? Luffy doesn't go all out when he fights friends, especially ones that are weaker than him. I don't see how you can say he was going all out when he stopped in his tracks at the sight of Usopp supposedly being too injured to fight. Passing up a chance to attack is not trying your best to win. 



> You have a serious dearth of understanding regarding Water 7. Usopp didn't call to question his loyalty by leaving the crew, he _demonstrated_ his loyalty. It was Usopp's conviction towards his crew mates that caused him to consider leaving. And it was the immaturity and stubbornness that he shares with Luffy that made him actually leave. Luffy holding back would have been disrespectful to Usopp as an always loyal crew mate.



No, he left because he was in love with a ship and because he felt useless. He left out of shame, not loyalty. Robin left out of loyalty. See the difference? 



> It would be excellent if you could somehow bring forth evidence of this pity. Unfortunately, you can't because Oda wouldn't write something so belittling into his crew dynamic.



Luffy: Charges in to attack.

Usopp: Coughs up "blood."

Luffy: Stops. 

There you go. He held back.



> He can't. I've already discussed why, and I don't want to get repetitive.



You haven't proven anything. All you've said is that Luffy can't stomp them because that would be pathetic. You haven't actually given any evidence other than a fight in which Usopp had intel, prep, and most importantly, the "Don't hit me I'm wounded" strategy. 



> Of course, Usopp couldn't defeat Jyabura. However, to claim that he couldn't have held his own were it not for the trick is ridiculous. We've seen it time and time again, yet people for some reason prefer not to believe it. Oda has made a trope of the underdog overcoming the villain with intelligence and willpower. I don't understand how saying that the trick "worked on" Usopp is an argument at all.




Ok. Let's try to imagine how Usopp vs. Jyabura would go with PIS and CIS turned off.

Usopp: Firebird star!

Jyabura: Dodges with soru.

Usopp: Where did he go!?

Jyabura: Shigan to the throat. 

Usopp: R.I.P.



> You're literally just changing the measuring stick not the canon.



You're literally just responding to an argument with a metaphor.



> Perhaps an analogy will better clear this up.  As water condenses in your shower, drops tend to fall at generally the same speed. It follows that it will take longer for a drop formed higher up on the wall to reach the bottom. However, the lower drop still progresses at the same rate.



In that case, Luffy an Usopp are a rock and a feather falling from the sky. Luffy, the rock, gets a head start. When they start falling, they are relatively close to each other. But as they continue to fall, the rock naturally gains more velocity than the feather. The rock gets farther and farther away from the feather as if falls faster and faster. It hits the ground and makes a crater. After what seems like an eternity, the feather has almost reached the ground, but it gets blown into a tree by the wind and never does.

Ok, that was fun. Let's move on. 



> Essentially, the Strawhats have had a reasonably constant dynamic between them. They are all with in each other's range as evidenced by Luffy v. Ussop, Luffy v. Franky, Brooke v. Zoro, etc besides the occasional spike in power (Zoro v. Daz, Luffy v. Crocodile, Luffy v. Lucci). So Luffy will inevitably reach the bottom first.



Your Luffy vs. Franky example says it all. In Water 7 they were fighting on par with each other. In Ennies Lobby Lucci owned Franky, then got beaten by Luffy. Are you saying that Franky improved as much as Luffy did from Water 7 to Ennies Lobby? I don't get why you'd think that everyone has the same rate of improvement. Why would Usopp improve as fast as the main character in a Shounen manga?



> Did I say that? You're arguing against what you think I think rather than what I actually think.



Ok. Sorry. He wouldn't even put up a fight. 

I disagree with you as much as someone could possibly disagree with someone, but I doubt anything short of a canonical battle between the two of them could provide unequivocal evidence for you. So you win that one. :thumb

Why do you disagree? Because Kalifa has shown feats on par with Lucci's? Because the douriki measurements that CP9 did were rigged? Because Lucci _isn't_ actually over 5 times stronger than Kalifa and Oda just said that for the hell of it?



> You have a far more severe misunderstanding of just how deeply Oda has worked in the manga to keep characters, regardless of their level of strength, speed, and durability, relevant.



Of couse they're relevant. That's why they always fight characters who are in their league. That's why Nami's opponent in Ennies Lobby was Kalifa and not Kumadori. That's why Usopp's opponent in the Alabasta arc was the mole lady and not Mr. 2. 



> No. Luffy could not low diff Jyabura.



Why? Because you said so?



> Oda has carefully balanced out these characters so that almost anyone could hold out against almost anyone.



Ok. Lesson learned. No one with a name gets fodderized in One Piece. Usopp never got beaten by the Kuro pirates. The admirals never made Luffy look like a weakling. Nami never needed to get saved by Chopper while she was running for dear life from Kumadori. 



> Regardless of rokushiki, Jyabura  was perfectly willing to stand up against Lucci. Regardless of Haki, Crocodile was perfectly williing to stand up against Doflamingo.



And Luffy was perfectly willing to stand up to Aokiji. What's your point?



> Do you know why? It's because as much as we like to talk about tiers, everyone in One Piece is basically on the same tier. That?s the way it's been written. Physical power is trivial. It can be overcome.



Ok. Start of series Luffy = same tier as Akainu. Got it.



> Willpower can give Luffy the strength to defeat Lucci.



That and the ability to crush steel with your bare hands. 



> Intelligence can give the World Government the power to overcome Whitebeard.



Oh, so it wasn't the admirals who defeated the Whitebeard pirates? Intelligence doesn't freeze tsunamies, my friend. 



> Trickery can give  the power defeat his captain.



Oh, so Usopp beat Luffy. I'm learning all kinds of things today. 



> *I think I'm getting a bit too worked up about this. I just feel quite strongly about this particular subject. I apologize if I've been rude or condescending.*



Dude, I'm being more rude than you. It's just that your arguing that a rabbit can overcome a lion.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 25, 2013)

EOS Usopp would lose to current tashigi because Usopp will never get haki and would get speedblitzed by any high tier


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## jNdee~ (Jul 25, 2013)




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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 25, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> EOS Usopp would lose to current tashigi because Usopp will never get haki and would get speedblitzed by any high tier



Great statement bro.

So i guess Usopp will never surpass Yassop or Van Augur. Perhaps you think they are mid tiers as welll?


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 25, 2013)

Usopp will never be stronger than Yasopp or Van auger, since when was his goal to become WSS (World's strongest sniper)??
Isnt it just to become a brave warrior of the sea ?


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## jNdee~ (Jul 25, 2013)

Whitebeard only wanted to be a father, Shanks didn't give a shit about the world, so is Kuzan. Are they weakshits as well?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 25, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Usopp will never be stronger than Yasopp or Van auger, since when was his goal to become WSS (World's strongest sniper)??
> Isnt it just to become a brave warrior of the sea ?



So during the final battle with the black beard pirates, you think Oda is going to have Usopp lose to Van augor?


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## Kishido (Jul 26, 2013)

tanman said:


> SNIP



This guy is awesome. You have won and we should stop the off topic


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## barreltheif (Jul 26, 2013)

Trance said:


> This is kinda outlandish and perhaps radical but what if Jinbe got stronger than from when he fought Ace?




It would indeed be outlandish to suggest that Jinbei, a middle aged NW veteran, improved as much as Ace did during his time in WB's crew.


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## Kishido (Jul 26, 2013)

barreltheif said:


> It would indeed be outlandish to suggest that Jinbei, a middle aged NW veteran, improved as much as Ace did during his time in WB's crew.



But but he did... Ace just had a good start with his huge growth which was praised by Sengoku and Co but after the fight and the WB joining he stopped and went Jinbe level growth...

Same as Luffy and the others right now... They won't have a big growth from now on cuz they trained 2 years... And if Jinbe joins he magically off screen had the same growth and from the time of his joining he will grow at the same level...


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## barreltheif (Jul 26, 2013)

Kishido said:


> But but he did... Ace just had a good start with his huge growth which was praised by Sengoku and Co but after the fight and the WB joining he stopped and went Jinbe level growth...
> 
> Same as Luffy and the others right now... They won't have a big growth from now on cuz they trained 2 years... And if Jinbe joins he magically off screen had the same growth and from the time of his joining he will grow at the same level...




Yes, that seems quite plausible indeed.


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## Lawliet (Jul 26, 2013)

Luffy was trying not to hurt Usopp at first, once Luffy got serious, it took one punch to put Usopp down. And Luffy's growth >>>> Usopp's, so current Luffy can literally fodderize Usopp, just like how he knocked out Franky in Chopper's body during PH with one serious punch. Some SHs are fodders to other SHs and it was made clear, you claim the opposite but nah, it was made clear that some are actually fodder compared to the others.


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## Vengeance (Jul 26, 2013)

Unless I underestimate Jinbe now, Zoro takes it with high difficulty imo.


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## trance (Jul 26, 2013)

barreltheif said:


> It would indeed be outlandish to suggest that Jinbei, a middle aged NW veteran, improved as much as Ace did during his time in WB's crew.



His brief clash with Luffy showed us he was fast enough to keep up him and effectively hurt him and vice versa, which implies that it was meant to show they were roughly on par.


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## Soca (Jul 26, 2013)

jinbe could win high dif



Zorofangirl24 said:


> Usopp will never be stronger than Yasopp or Van auger, since when was his goal to become WSS (World's strongest sniper)??
> Isnt it just to become a brave warrior of the sea ?


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 26, 2013)

King sniper =/= strongest sniper
And Yasopp and Auger are gunners if you think about it cuz Usopp manually shoots


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## Soca (Jul 26, 2013)




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## Imagine (Jul 26, 2013)

Luffy mid diff


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## Mihawk (Jul 26, 2013)

But but he did... 





> Ace just had a good start with his huge growth which was praised by Sengoku and Co but after the fight and the WB joining he stopped and went Jinbe level growth...



Joining WB helped him. It didn't reduce his prowess or potential.

If anything, Ace would advance more after joining the WB crew for 2 years, and he was even shown to be fighting New World veterans like Doma after joining as a pretty casual thing, like just something in the norm for him to do after becoming a Commander. He was basically being endorsed by the WBs to become Roger's successor, as the latter's son.

Jinbe remained largely inParadise, whereas Ace went further, and stayed there for a period of time. 

I don't think he is largely superior to Jinbe, but that he pulled ahead after the two had their 5 day battle.





> Same as Luffy and the others right now... They won't have a big growth from now on cuz they trained 2 years... *And if Jinbe joins he magically off screen had the same growth and from the time of his joining he will grow at the same level*...



If he joins, I don't think he had to have had the same growth to stay on par with the M3(this is assuming he will be a part of the Straw Hats and advance along with them), because before the timeskip and now(where there has not been any visibly significant change in power from him), he was always in their general league. He was always on the level of the Current M3, even in Marineford.


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## Lawliet (Jul 26, 2013)

"Pirate King"= True King of Pirates= Strongest Pirate.
"True King of Snipers" = Sniper King= Strongest Sniper.

I shouldn't have bothered, you'll just find another lie to tell yourself.


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## Kishido (Jul 26, 2013)

Trance said:


> His brief clash with Luffy showed us he was fast enough to keep up him and effectively hurt him and vice versa, which implies that it was meant to show they were roughly on par.



As Franky was shown in Water 7... And tadda EL came... And it was truly impressive that he blocked a hakiless gear 2 attack... Something even Hyozou could do and even managed to poison Luffy as counter... Luffy even praised him for that

Jinbe was impressed with Luffy's CoC perfomance later on while Zoro/Sanji gave a fuck



			
				Doflαmingo said:
			
		

> If he joins, I don't think he had to have had the same growth to stay on par with the M3(this is assuming he will be a part of the Straw Hats and advance along with them), because before the timeskip and now(where there has not been any visibly significant change in power from him), he was always in their general league. He was always on the level of the Current M3, even in Marineford.[/B]



So he CURRENTLY is on the level of the M3 but he hasn't to have the same growth as some 20 years old teens to stay on par with them later... Well OK... That's contradicting... If Luffy and Co.'s growth is higher, which it is seeing as they just started to wreck shit in the NW, than Jinbe will be in the same general level my ass... He will fall back to them... *And that's a given.*

But hey... Simply say you think *he will always be M3 level*, even to the time Luffy is PK and Zoro WSM... People who will fight guys as Akainu, Mihawk, Yonkous and Admirals... Something a 46 years old Jinbe, a pirate veteran (Please no Brook shit, cuz he was stucked in Florian Triangle for decades), wasn't able to do until now.

Funny shit... Seriously... Just look how much the m3, Law and Co evolved in 2 years to reach this level of CURRENT Jinbe or even being stronger... Look at them... And tell me once again... Jinbe will stay close to them if he joins if the manga itself shows how fast the new generation is growing in power while Jinbe, as you yourself said, hasn't grown much during the TS.


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## Mihawk (Jul 26, 2013)

> So he CURRENTLY is on the level of the M3 but he hasn't to have the same growth as some 20 years old teens to stay on par with them later... Well OK... That's contradicting... If Luffy and Co.'s growth is higher, which it is seeing as they just started to wreck shit in the NW, than Jinbe will be in the same general level my ass... He will fall back to them... *And that's a given.*
> 
> But hey... Simply say you think he will always be M3 level, even to the time Luffy is PK and Zoro WSM... People who will fight guys as Akainu, Mihawk, Yonkous and Admirals... Something a 46 years old Jinbe, a pirate veteran (Please no Brook shit, cuz he was stucked in Florian Triangle for decades), wasn't able to do until now.
> 
> *Funny shit... Seriously... Just look how much the m3, Law and Co evolved in 2 years to reach this level of CURRENT Jinbe or even being stronger... Look at them... *And tell me once again... Jinbe will stay close to them if he joins if the manga itself shows how fast the new generation is growing in power while Jinbe, as you yourself said, hasn't grown much during the TS.



 

Nearly got you to go in the opposite direction from your baits  needed to be closer though 

Of course I don't think he can stay on par with them at his current strength while they keep getting stronger until they make it to Admiral level and higher  

My Ace/Jinbe post remains genuine though.


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## Kishido (Jul 26, 2013)

Not bad my friend... Not bad. + rep

I liked it and form now on you


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## Quuon (Jul 26, 2013)

Zoro, extreme-diff.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jul 27, 2013)

Jinbei pushing Zoro to extreme diff? Zoro wins with one sword and without using his best moves


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