# Sage Mode Naruto vs Tsunade In Taijutsu ONLY



## Foxsikes (Mar 4, 2014)

Can Sage Mode Naruto take on Tsunade in Taijutsu?

-Restrictions- All jutsus and summonings.  Tsunade still gets to increase her strength with chakra though and naruto still gets Frog Kumite.  TSUNADE CAN HEAL HERSELF BUT SHE CANNOT USE HER SEALS.  SHE HAS TO USE MEDICAL JUTSU

Distance-50 Meters

Place - Desert

Intent- Knockout or kill

Knowledge - Manga

Tools- None, Taijutsu only

Can The KNuckleheaded Sage overcome The Big Breasted SLug Princess or will she pulverize Naruto into dust?

Notes- I am personally leaning towards this fight going either way.  Naruto can take a lot of damage in sage mode and also has sensory while Tsunade can tank some heavy damage too and has far mroe strength than Naruto i beleive.  Its basically High speed and Medium Strength vs Low Speed and Extremely High Strength


----------



## RedChidori (Mar 4, 2014)

Naruto takes it mid difficulty. 

His Sage Mode enhanced reflexes, speed, strength, durability, etc. gives him the win here. 

Give Tsunade her Byakogu Seal and this may be a more interesting matchup.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Naruto has his own version of spider sensing and doesn't even have to make actual contact to land his blows. He won't lose in a pure Taijutsu match to anyone outside of the top-ist of tiers or Hachimon Gai.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 4, 2014)

Tsuande doesn't stand much of a chance. Naruto is fast and reflexive enough to dodge her attacks just like he did to the Sandaime then he can counter attack her which even if she dodges(be it a counter attack or normal attack) she will still get hit and she doesn't know about Frog Kumite either. Yeah she may last for a little bit but Naruto is going to be rag dolling her more or less the entire time.


----------



## Pitbull00000 (Mar 4, 2014)

Sage naruto wins this mid diff, he doesn't need to make full contact with Frog Kumite for a full hit, and his reflexes are way better and he is a sensor


----------



## Kai (Mar 4, 2014)

Sensor, reflexes far greater than her own, and doesn't need to make physical contact to be a fatal force.

Tsunade's style of combat fails hard against that triple advantage.


----------



## Mercurial (Mar 4, 2014)

Naruto wins easily. Sage sensing give him enhances reflexes to the point that he can dodge at the last second a being far faster than Tsunade, the 3rd Raikage. Also Frog Kumite, Kawazu Tataki, the fact that he can grab Tsunade and launch her in the sky. Tsunade may be able to tank some hits but she's completely outclassed.


----------



## animeboy1 (Mar 4, 2014)

The boy is too good for the Hokage.


----------



## Kyu (Mar 4, 2014)

SM Naruto is faster by a decent margin & his advanced sensing abilities make him almost impossible for the Slug Princess to land a clean hit. An SM clone can dodge the Sandaime's Nukite point blank .

Naruto bobs and weaves before making Tsunade his bitch via multiple Frog Kumite.

So long as Naruto doesn't have a prolonged wrestling match with her he should take this without much difficulty.


----------



## Csdabest (Mar 4, 2014)

Tsunade. Tsunade is way powerful and I believe she is better in Taijutsu. Cant remember. But her Taijutsu is AOE effective. Naruto is strong but right now he isnt stronger than the Raikage in which Tsunade is superior in strength do.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 4, 2014)

Tsuande get Raikage'd


----------



## PAWS (Mar 4, 2014)

Tsunade takes this, she tanks everything he does to her and eventually his SM runs out and she finishes him. All he can do it kick and punch and Tsunade easily survives those.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 4, 2014)

Oh God.

Tsunade rips out his fucking spine.

What is the point of this thread, exactly?


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Oh God.
> 
> Tsunade rips out his fucking spine.
> 
> What is the point of this thread, exactly?




Nah. She can't heal off damage. He dodges her first attempt at a punch with indescribable ease and blows her jaw through the back of her head.


----------



## Amol (Mar 4, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Tsunade. Tsunade is way powerful and I believe she is better in Taijutsu. Cant remember. But her Taijutsu is AOE effective. Naruto is strong but right now he isnt stronger than the Raikage in which Tsunade is superior in strength do.


I would like to know how tsunade's taijutsu is better than SM Naruto. Nothing but direct hit from tsunade will defeat naruto which is not going to happen. No AOE attack of tsunade is going to do anything to him. He is atleast that durable. You sure underestimate SM Naruto too much, because if I recall correctly you had thought kimimaro and sharinganless hebi sasuke can defeat SM Naruto in 1 on 1.


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 4, 2014)

The time limit coupled with tsunade's healing is what makes this a pretty good matchup.  SM Naruto's going to be landing a lot of blows, but after the first few, tsunade can just play on the defensive.  If she blocks the actual physical attack, then the blow won't extend past her defenses as seen when deva blocked SM Naruto's kick.  Difference between deva and tsunade is that she won't get sent flying by blocking naruto's punch since she's actually stronger than him. 

If she needs to heal, she could always jump into the air and make a giant shockwave which could put some distance between her and naruto.  

I'm not sure what current SM Naruto's time limit is in that mode.  Most likely it's around 8 minutes considering he can now throw 3 FRS vs his earlier 2 limit.  8 minutes is a pretty long time on the battlefield, so i'd still give it to naruto eventually landing enough blows to weaken her so that she can't get away and heal.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 4, 2014)

Tsunade survived the onslaught of multiple V3 Rinnegan Madara Susanos, destroyed a Madara clone, kicked him into lightened Ei several hundred meters in the air and punched away several spree-fireballs in succession... 

SM Naruto, the dude who couldn't down Deva with hits, is killing her with kicks and punches, when she tanks Kusanagi through the heart and continues fighting with V3 Susano blades sticking out of her body?

....She summoned Katsuya while missing half of a body. 

She puts a finger on his fist when he throws a punch, and his entire arm is liquefied into pink mist instantaneously. She then roundhouse kicks him into splattered meat.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Mar 4, 2014)

Tsuande has ZERO chance.  She can't hit Naruto.  At all.  He's too fast AND he'll sense the attack coming.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Mar 4, 2014)

Naruto can fly, he can easily win.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tsunade survived the onslaught of multiple V3 Rinnegan Madara Susanos, destroyed a Madara clone, kicked him into lightened Ei several hundred meters in the air and punched away several spree-fireballs in succession...




.....With Bykaugo. Those feats aren't applicable to this Tsunade..



> SM Naruto, the dude who couldn't down Deva with hits, is killing her with kicks and punches, when she tanks Kusanagi through the heart and continues fighting with V3 Susano blades sticking out of her body?




Tendo is faster than Tsunade, so Naruto never cleanly connected anyway. When Tendo blocked Naruto's attacks, he was launched across the battlefield.

...and more Byakugo feats.



> She puts a finger on his fist when he throws a punch, and his entire arm is liquefied into pink mist instantaneously.




Naruto stopped a giant charging Rhino with his bare hands and launched it hundreds of meters into the sky. 

He suplexed the Kyuubi.

He "blitzed" the Asura Path from hundreds of meters out and smashed it in one move, despite it taking things like Choji's massive fist and Kakashi's Raikiri.

When it comes to strength, Naruto's barley at a disadvantage. When Tsunade uses the Chakra enhanced strength, sure the gap widens, but Tsunade is never going to cleanly connect with Sage Naruto. On the other hand, Naruto has advantages in speed/reflexes, durability, and skill/style. The minor disadvantage in strength won't even matter...


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> .....With Bykaugo. Those feats aren't applicable to this Tsunade..
> 
> ...and more Byakugo feats.



Tsunade's resilience has absolutely nothing to do with Byakugou. She was running around slamming Susano'o clones and attacking Madara with giant swords piercing her - that had nothing to do with her regeneration, which only took effect after she ripped said swords out. And, as others have said, she was still alive and using medical ninjutsu while cut in half for an extended period of time.

Tsunade - like her Kage peers, took quite a lot of blunt force trauma while fighting against Madara and it didn't really slow her down. She also took the collateral damage of Pein's CST, which was pretty powerful given the force that it had behind it. That damage didn't really phase her much either (it was exhaustion that did that). 

To be perfectly honest, I don't see Naruto's strikes doing all that much to Tsunade unless he lands _a lot_ of direct hits.​​


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 4, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> . She also took the collateral damage of Pein's CST, which was pretty powerful given the force that it had behind it. That damage didn't really phase her much either (it was exhaustion that did that).



Are you seriously suggesting she tanked Chou Shinra Tensei?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 4, 2014)

Yes, the collateral damage. Which is why I wrote, collateral damage. 

​​


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade's resilience has absolutely nothing to do with Byakugou. She was running around slamming Susano'o clones and attacking Madara with giant swords piercing her - that had nothing to do with her regeneration, which only took effect after she ripped said swords out. And, as others have said, she was still alive and using medical ninjutsu while cut in half for an extended period of time.




Fair enough, but...



> To be perfectly honest, I don't Naruto's strikes doing all that much to Tsunade unless he lands _a lot_ of direct hits.




This is where I disagree. Naruto has comparable (or possibly superior) strength to a large summon or Bijuu. The thing is, the force that Naruto exerts with that strength is concentrated within the surface area of Naruto's fist. There's a reason why Madara's big ass Susano'o can't even knock a normal Kage out, while people like Tsunade, Ei, and SM Naruto can kill in one hit.

Think of this way; when Susano'o or Zetsu's statue hit Mei, the forces behind those punches were distributed throughout Mei's entire body since the fists of those creatures are so big. Since Naruto is much smaller, he can exert a similar force upon a much smaller, more vulnerable area. If Naruto were to smash Tsunade in, say, the throat, that's going to be much harder to swallow than getting smacked by something like a Susano'o hand.  Imo, if Tsunade receives all of the force Naruto can dish out in the form of an uppercut to the jaw, it's "GG bro".


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 4, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yes, the collateral damage. Which is why I wrote, collateral damage.
> 
> ​​



Yeah, where's your evidence that Tsunade didn't simply have her body wrapped with Katsuyu like every single other villager had? 

To cut things to the point, we don't actually see Tsunade with any sort of Katsuyu division in the nearby vicinity following Pain's destruction of the Leaf Village. In fact, we see her right next to a freakin' ANBU Black Ops bodyguard, both reasonably unharmed. If you're going to make the claim that Tsunade has enough durability to take a full-power Shinra Tensei, you're going to have to do the same for that chump fodder.

Which, in turn, makes it an *outlier* and non-valid.



DaVizWiz said:


> , destroyed a Madara clone



Yeah, she destroyed a Wood Clone, whoopee.

That's an impressive feat, alright. 



> kicked him into lightened Ei several hundred meters in the air



When the fuck did this happen?



> and punched away several spree-fireballs in succession...



Of which have no destructive feats to speak of.

If you're trying to portray Tsunade as some sort of super-durable juggernaut, you're doing a pretty terrible fucking job. List some actual feats of worth. 



> She puts a finger on his fist when he throws a punch, and his entire arm is liquefied into pink mist instantaneously.



What the fuck? 

You think a single finger from Tsunade can liquefy someone as durable as Sage Naruto? Are you high?



> She then roundhouse kicks him into splattered meat.



Or Sage Naruto casually ducks it.

She isn't the fastest of fighters, if you haven't noticed.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 4, 2014)

SM Naruto is strong enough to make Tsunade feel it when he connects.  She can take quite a bit of punishment though, and she's resilient enough to hit back.  Sage sensing and the speed boost and frog katas mean that Naruto will be moving around her and landing way more hits.  The problem for Naruto is that she's super tough, and can end him with a hit, and he has to operate inside the danger zone to continue dealing damage.  Taijutsu is also kind of Tsunade's thing as well.  She took the damage from Mabui's teleport, and came out with a flying kick in base.  I'm not going to list all the examples, because they've been listed so many times by so many posters that people either don't care, don't think they're respectable feats, or aren't paying attention.  

*Rag dolling:*

What I will say is that I don't think ragdolling people with super strength and durability is that easy.  Choji and Jirobu both had super strength, but didn't rag doll each other in their strength battle until Choji went buterfly mode and became 100 million times stronger than him.  The reason being, they both had super strength, and both had high resilience.  There seems to be some conception that Tsunade only has super strength with striking, and only tough when healing, and isn't naturally strong and naturally resilient, and it's probably because she's a woman that's not big and fat and sturdy looking.  Chouji, Chouza, Jirobu, and Raikage all look big and sturdy, so people don't place Tsunade into that category, even though she belongs there.  Or perhaps it's because we have Sakura, who only has striking strength, and is a weak little girl with a little girl body and gets rag dolled all the time because of it.  She even got choked by Sasuke.  But that's the difference between them  If Sasuke grabbed Tsunade by the neck, and tried to choke her, he would die.  Sakura is weak, and uses jutsu to bring her weak areas up.  Tsunade is strong, and uses those same jutsu to further augment those strengths.  So while people often consider Sakura a second Tsunade, myself included, it's really a misnomer.  Now to clarify, while Choji and Jirobu certainly did toss each other around to some extent, and while Raikage did drive Sasuke's berzerker cursed seal friend into a wall, they all still fall short of rag dolling.  Rag dolling is what happened to the low strength, low durability Sasuke when he fought Tailed Bee.  Bee had durability and a much higher speed, combined with a much, much higher strength than Sasuke.  

*Style:*

Tsunade's fighting style is very typical of shounen protagonists, durable, strong, resilient, and effective without being flashy.  It's the sort of fighting where you get dirty, and look ugly, but ultimately get the job done.  It's a rather odd choice on Kishi's part to give this style to a a female, but I think it's part of what he was going for when he tried to make a strong female.  Make a typical shounen lead fighter, but a big busted female instead of some dude.  Which makes it fitting that she'd be of the heroic Senju and Uzumaki races, and was the one of her generation to become Hokage.  On that note, Taijutsu skill in a Naruto can be really high, and payed respect, without it looking complicated.  It's just a thing.  Rock Lee has a really simple strike based style, but his ability to implement it is so high that he's considered an expert in Part I, and listed as a master in Part II.  Naruto's brawling in part one looks awful, but if you look at the databooks, his taijutsu stat steadily increases throughout, and is often one of his best points.  It's taken for granted that he's good at it because he's a protagonist type build, and gets be stronger without being large, tough without being bulky, and skilled despite looking plain and reckless.  That's how he has an even taijutsu match with Sasuke on the hospital roof, despite Sasuke being portrayed as much faster, with a better base Uchiha style, on top of stolen Lee skill.  Though Tsunade has her drunken showing against Naruto, where she dodges shuriken and completely negates or avoids everything he throws at her while essentially not moving from her spot, and that was definitely done to show that her skill in taijutsu, rather than simply her raw might.  Else wise Kishi would have let Naruto punch her, and have her flick him away, before he tried the rasengan and got ground fissured.  So I don't get behind the notion that Tsunade has boring and easily countered low skill style taijutsu style.  She should eventually cope with disadvantages.  Plus she's legitimately smart, as opposed to the borderline retardation most protagonist builds suffer.

If Naruto can pull off perfect out-boxing, he will win.  If he can't, Tsunade will pull a Rocky, and he's going to the mat.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Nah. She can't heal off damage. He dodges her first attempt at a punch with indescribable ease and blows her jaw through the back of her head.



He's not doing that with only Taijutsu.

Tsunade is getting her hands on him eventually and then she makes sausages out of him.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

PoW said:
			
		

> and while Raikage did drive Sasuke's berzerker cursed seal friend into a wall, they all still fall short of rag dolling.




Raikage rag dolled Juugo. Juugo was talking shit, Raikage punched a hole in him, Juugo fired a lazer and talked more shit, Raikage dodged and ruined Juugo's life with his Erubo.




Imo that is like the embodiment of "rag dolling."


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> He's not doing that with only Taijutsu.




Why not. Tsunade hasn't been socked in the jaw by anything as strong as SM Naruto, so I'm unsure where this magical ability to shrug off the _multiple_ hits he'll land on her comes from. 

Also, didn't Kabuto like launch her with a punch back in Part 1? I know she was worse and weaker back then, but Sage Naruto is around 500 tiers phsycially stronger than Preskip Kabuto.



> Tsunade is getting her hands on him eventually




Yeah how.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Why not. Tsunade hasn't been socked in the jaw by anything as strong as SM Naruto.



She took Madara's Magatama to the gut and it didn't even break the skin.



> Yeah how.



She got her hands on Madara.

Naruto trying to hit her, for one thing, is going to make it a lot easier.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 4, 2014)

Nobody of the Gokage got their hands on Madara by themselves without Madara letting it happen, though.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> She took Madara's Magatama to the gut and it didn't even break the skin.




That shit sent her flying. She just healed off the damage with Byakugo.




> She got her hands on Madara.




A Madara clone that didn't use Susano'o. 

Madara also likes to let people hit him, like Onoki & Base Rock Lee.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 4, 2014)

She was still able to hit Madara.

It's not impossible for her to catch someone faster than her.

And as for Naruto inflicting anything resembling damage with his Taijutsu...

He could barely do that to Pain.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 4, 2014)

Actually, both Tsunade and Madara's comments makes it look like the 5 of them did something off panel. Wich is why Tsunade tells him that he was cornered and had to use a clone, and Madara replies with "It's 5 vs 1, after all".

So the five of them could've something to do that cornered him off panel instead of Tsunade only.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> She was still able to hit Madara.




Clone*

EDIT: And LostSelf's view is also another possibility if it wasn't a clone (though I don't see how it couldn't be).



> It's not impossible for her to catch someone faster than her.




Of course not. 

It's just unlikely that she'll catch and kill someone faster, much more perceptive, more durable, and nearly as strong before he breaks her neck.




> He could barely do that to Pain.




When Pain wasn't able to block Naruto's hit, Pain's neck broke in two.


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> She was still able to hit Madara.
> 
> It's not impossible for her to catch someone faster than her.
> 
> ...





correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't SM Naruto the only person in the entire manga who's actually killed or defeated an opponent (one of Pain's bodies) with a single taijutsu strike (a punch/kick)?


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Clone*



The Madara whose Susano'o she busted open with a kick was not a clone.



> Of course not.
> 
> It's just unlikely that she'll catch and kill someone faster, much more perceptive, more durable, and nearly as strong before he breaks her neck.



Nardo doesn't have the strength to break her neck.

And she's allowed to use basic medical Ninjutsu here, which means the little damage he's going to inflict will just get undone.



> When Pain wasn't able to block Naruto's hit, Pain's neck broke into two.



None of Pain's necks were broken. Yahiko took several hits directly and walked them off.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Even Zetsu's Shin Susenju & Madara's enormous Stage 3 Susano'o failed to down the lowly Mei with one hit.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 4, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't SM Naruto the only person in the entire manga who's actually killed or defeated an opponent (one of Pain's bodies) with a single taijutsu strike (a punch/kick)?



Pain has only been in a few fights in the entire manga and Naruto is the only opponent he's faced other than J-man with the physical strength to do that.

That doesn't mean it couldn't be replicated by other shinobi (obviously substituting a normal punch for the Kawazu Kumite, which is what I assume you're referring to).


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Even Zetsu's Shin Susenju & Madara's enormous Stage 3 Susano'o failed to down the lowly Mei with one hit.



That's because Kishi just doesn't give a darn anymore.

Or Mei is diamonds.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The Madara whose Susano'o she busted open with a kick was not a clone.




That Madara was launched into the sky by Mei where he was corned by Tsunade, Ei and Onoki.

Yet, you attribute that solely to Tsunade. lol. 





> Nardo doesn't have the strength to break her neck.




Based on what durability feats? He has top line strength feats (Rhino toss it legitimately insane) and the neck is very vulnerable. 




> None of Pain's necks were broken. Yahiko took several hits directly and walked them off.




Preta Pain disagrees, and Tendo took two hits that he guarded against. I never said she'd take damage if she blocked them.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That Madara was launched into the sky by Mei where he was corned by Tsunade, Ei and Onoki.
> 
> Yet, you attribute that solely to Tsunade. lol.



He couldn't Mokuton himself to safety in time or anything. So yeah.



> Based on what durability feats? He has top line strength feats (Rhino toss it legitimately insane) and the neck is very vulnerable.



Putting his hands around Tsunade's neck is like begging her to rip his arms out of their sockets.

And let me reiterate for you that Madara's Magatama didn't break Tsunade's skin.



> Preta Pain disagrees, and Tendo took two hits that he guarded against. I never said she'd take damage if she blocked them.



Preta is shit, especially compared to Tsunade.


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Pain has only been in a few fights in the entire manga and Naruto is the only opponent he's faced other than J-man with the physical strength to do that.


Jman couldn't even do that.  He full on kicked Pain in the face, sent him flying into a pile of boulders and Pain just got back up, albeit he was blinded.

But that's all besides the point which is that Naruto not only inflicted 'something resembling damage' to pain, but he actually has the physical strength to one-shot pain, something that no one has ever done to any other notable opponent in the manga with a single taijutsu move.



Nikushimi said:


> That doesn't mean it couldn't be replicated by other shinobi (obviously substituting a normal punch for the Kawazu Kumite, which is what I assume you're referring to).


I'm not arguing that it couldn't be replicated by other shinobi since that would be me taking on the position that SM Naruto hits the hardest out of everyone in the manga including Byakugo Tsunade.  however what I am arguing is against the silly notion that SM Naruto 'barely' managed to inflict damage to pain with his hits.

He outright killed a path with a single punch, Deva path couldn't even get up after BLOCKING a kick, and then Deva path gets incapacitated after taking one of Naruto's weaker kicks to the chest.  And deva path has some insane durability feats such as surviving the explosion of a TBB, and being slammed into the ground and carried halfway across konoha by his own shinra tensei and coming out of that without combat hindering injuries.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 4, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Jman couldn't even do that.  He full on kicked Pain in the face, sent him flying into a pile of boulders and Pain just got back up, albeit he was blinded.



Different Pain.



> But that's all besides the point which is that Naruto not only inflicted 'something resembling damage' to pain, but he actually has the physical strength to one-shot pain, something that no one has ever done to any other notable opponent in the manga with a single taijutsu move.



Different Pain.



> I'm not arguing that it couldn't be replicated by other shinobi since that would be me taking on the position that SM Naruto hits the hardest out of everyone in the manga including Byakugo Tsunade.  however what I am arguing is against the silly notion that SM Naruto 'barely' managed to inflict damage to pain with his hits.



Tendou, yeah; Nardo barely inflicted any damage and none of it was debilitating.



> He outright killed a path with a single punch,



Preta ran from Kiba's mom and has no real durability feats to speak of.



> Deva path couldn't even get up after BLOCKING a kick, and then Deva path gets incapacitated after taking one of Naruto's weaker kicks to the chest.



Tendou did get up.



> And deva path has some insane durability feats such as surviving the explosion of a TBB,



He was outside the blast radius.

Gai and Kakashi survived just outside the blast radius of the combined Bijuudama explosion generated by Naruto's Bijuu Mode and Obito's Bijuu.



> and being slammed into the ground and carried halfway across konoha by his own shinra tensei and coming out of that without combat hindering injuries.



Yeah, Kage-level ninja in general are physically superhuman. This isn't news.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> niga have u seen spiderman




 Nah I just read the Hebi Sauce-Itachi fight.

But honestly, the attack was a combination between four Kage that was initiated by Mei, not Tsunade.



> Tsunade is more Bijuu than human, herself.




I'd say that's Raikage. Tsunade still needed life shortening regeneration Jutsu to survive Mabui's technique, while Base Raikage tanked it no dif. She is closer to human than a Bijuu, and still susceptible to normal human injuries like broken necks. That's why she needs the regen Justu.




> It just didn't do anything to her; the rip in her clothes was already there, from the time Madara stabbed her.




It left the area black I suppose, but I guess you're right; if the cut hadn't healed yet, then the Magatama damage wouldn't have healed yet.

However, Magatama hit her in the torso, which isn't the where Naruto would be aiming. He's aiming to cave in her throat.

By the way, after Naruto had the the alliance casually reflect Magatama with their fodder cloaks, I lost respect for the Jutsu, so I don't know how much I even value that feat.




> He ran from Kiba's mom and has no durability feats to speak of. I covered that already.



If my only Jutsu was Chakra absorption I would run from preskip Akamaru.

As for the feats, Tsunade's jaw has no feats to suggest she'd shrug off an uppercut from someone like Sage Naruto, so yeah.


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Different Pain.


other than the presupposition that Human path is more durable than preta path, what reason do you have that the pain's vary considerably in durability.




Nikushimi said:


> Different Pain.


You said 'pain' and made zero distinction about which body you are talking about when you made that statement.  And again, like the above, what evidence do you have that the pain's varied significantly in durability?




Nikushimi said:


> Tendou, yeah; Nardo barely inflicted any damage and none of it was debilitating.


so being incapacitated by a weak kick despite being extremely close to nagato isn't debilitating?  Deva path took way less damage from his own shinra tensei than he did from Naruto's kick.  




Nikushimi said:


> Preta ran from Kiba's mom and has no real durability feats to speak of.


Preta path ran from Kiba and his mom, and that simply means he can't take the both of them with mere taijutsu which says nothing about his durability.  Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.  




Nikushimi said:


> Tendou did get up.


yeah after naruto had the time to create 2 clones, create and throw a FRS, and then have that FRS travel all the way to deva path, and then have preta path absorb the whole technique.  Hes out of commission all that time after merely blocking a kick.

And im guessing you concede the part that you didin't address.



Nikushimi said:


> He was outside the blast radius.


Then why is he shown INSIDE the crater with his clothes torn up?



Nikushimi said:


> Gai and Kakashi survived just outside the blast radius of the combined Bijuudama explosion generated by Naruto's Bijuu Mode and Obito's Bijuu.



they were inside Naruto's Kyuubi chakra cloak.......




Nikushimi said:


> Yeah, Kage-level ninja in general are physically superhuman. This isn't news.




 From what i recall, kakashi was downed by merely taking 3 shinra tenseis that don't even begin to compare to that one.  How many kage level ninjas do you know that can take the same hit deva took and get up without any injuries and without using any defensive ninjutsu to protect themselves?  Only the super durables.  The average joes like kakashi, mei, itachi, sasuke, base naruto, oonoki, all take a lot of damage.  Naruto's weakened kick he did against a more powerful deva did way more damage than that shinra tensei did to deva.

So unless you want to assert that tsunade without byakugo literally takes no damage from hits like that, she obviously is going to take damage from a direct hit from naruto.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Raikage rag dolled Juugo. Juugo was talking shit, Raikage punched a hole in him, Juugo fired a lazer and talked more shit, Raikage dodged and ruined Juugo's life with his Erubo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was referring to the initial rush.  Not the one where he got blindsided from behind by an elbow while he was in a crazy rant on how he killed the Raikage.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 4, 2014)

Still counts. :ignoramus


----------



## richard lewis (Mar 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> He couldn't Mokuton himself to safety in time or anything. So yeah.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really dude..... lets be honest in a 1 on 1 fight tsunade wouldn't be able to put as much a scratch on madara, the only reason she was ever able to land a hit on him is b/c she had 4 other kages backing her up. Plain and simple, so don't give me this BS about her having top notch taijutsu because it's simply not true, she couldn't even touch part 1 kabuto .

However..... naruto isn't really a taijutsu genius either and his striking speed is overrated. If deva could block his kick/punch than so can tsunade, and unlike deva she won't be sent flying across the battlefield she'll be able to stand her ground and throw a counter punch at him. So I'm 50/50 here. There's a decent chance that tsunade would manage to land a blow and put naruto down, but there is also a decent possibility for naruto to keep dodging her and pounding away with frog kata until she turns into hamburger meat.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Still counts. :ignoramus



No Rocky, it doesn't count.

1. The rag doll physics are anime only.  Here's what we saw in the manga.

freakin' ANBU Black Ops bodyguard, both reasonably unharmed

freakin' ANBU Black Ops bodyguard, both reasonably unharmed

He got knocked into a wall.  

2. There is a clear and obvious difference between hitting someone knows they're in a fight, and someone who doesn't.  So much so that I shouldn't even have to bring it up.

3.  You posted the :ignoramus emote implying that you are joking.  Rag dolling in Naruto is serious business that is not to be trifled with.


----------



## Foxsikes (Mar 5, 2014)

man this got heated ...... 

I got a quick question though...... What is Tsunade's greatest durability feat without the seal?


----------



## Foxsikes (Mar 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> No Rocky, it doesn't count.
> 
> 1. The rag doll physics are anime only.  Here's what we saw in the manga.
> 
> ...



what anime is your sig?  i thought it was dark magician girl but i was so wrong lol


----------



## Bonly (Mar 5, 2014)

Foxsikes said:


> man this got heated ......
> 
> I got a quick question though...... What is Tsunade's greatest durability feat without the seal?



Surviving Mabui's teleporting jutsu with just some cuts when it was said to rip the flesh to pieces and kill people bar the Sandaime Raikage. She healed afterwords but she took the damage without the seal.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2014)

Foxsikes said:


> man this got heated ......
> 
> I got a quick question though...... What is Tsunade's greatest durability feat without the seal?



I'm play serious.  Rocky is cool and I like him, and we're talking annymays.

With it completely off, her greatest durability feat is probably tanking Mabui's teleport, since that's supposed to be instant death to anyone that's not Sandaime Raikagenaught.  

Outside of that, probably taking all of Orochimaru's kusunagi slashes and being stabbed through the chest with it and still getting up to deck him.



Foxsikes said:


> what anime is your sig?  i thought it was dark magician girl but i was so wrong lol



It's a video game.  Tales of Xillia.  She's Milla Maxwell, Lord of Spirits.


----------



## Foxsikes (Mar 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'm play serious.  Rocky is cool and I like him, and we're talking annymays.
> 
> With it completely off, her greatest durability feat is probably tanking Mabui's teleport, since that's supposed to be instant death to anyone that's not Sandaime Raikagenaught.
> 
> ...



is there any feat where she survives from concussive force?  Sm naruto is gonna do concussive damage to her so is there possibly something like an explosion or some huge concussive punched that she tanked like it was nothing?  Slashing and concussive damage are way too different.  For instance, you can break a rock with a hammer but you cant stab through it with a knife. But you can cut through paper with a stab from a knife but you cant break the paper by hitting it with a hammer.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2014)

Kusunagi is kind of a special case, because it's supposed to cut diamond, however I see your point.

She took the epicenter of CST.  But that feat was contested earlier, and people bicker over it.  She technically had her seal active, but it and Katsuya were used to protect and heal everyone else, though again, you can debate that.

She took Madara's magatama point blank without a scratch.  The healing Madara refers to later is her jutsu healing the sword wound in her stomach.  

This Susano slap and ground slam was tanked as well.  Tsunade may or may not have been the only one standing.  She might have a knee down.  I can't tell.  Gaara face planted though.  lol


----------



## PAWS (Mar 5, 2014)

Foxsikes said:


> is there any feat where she survives from concussive force?  Sm naruto is gonna do concussive damage to her so is there possibly something like an explosion or some huge concussive punched that she tanked like it was nothing?  Slashing and concussive damage are way too different.  For instance, you can break a rock with a hammer but you cant stab through it with a knife. But you can cut through paper with a stab from a knife but you cant break the paper by hitting it with a hammer.



That makes no sense you dont break paper, you rip it. If you honestly think that if you held paper in front of you and a hammer wouldnt rip through it then I have nothing to say.

Anyway this has nothing to do with Tsunade seeing that her body survived the pressure of the teleportation justu. It cut her up but the pressure of the justu should have crushed her in but it didnt.


----------



## trance (Mar 5, 2014)

Naruto. He's at least as strong in Sage Mode and much faster with limited precognitive abilities, so he should be able to avoid her attacks.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> No Rocky, it doesn't count.
> 
> 1. The rag doll physics are anime only.  Here's what we saw in the manga.
> 
> ...




That gif keeps making me laugh, so imma make a set of the Raikage's elbow and Juugo's bad day. 


As for the point, tell me though, what exactly would have changed had Juugo known the Raikage was coming? Would Ei have gotten weaker and failed to knock the poor soul out?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2014)

Technically, if you put paper on a solid flat hard surface, you can pound it with a mallet or hammer, and it won't take very much damage.

I think he was just using an analogy to compare cutting to blunt damage.  Generally speaking, cutting and piercing damage is treated with more respect, since ninja seem more resistant to concussive force than piercing.  So it's generally the superior feat to have.  

But like you said, her entire body took the force of the teleport, so that can be viewed as concussive force.  The body just gets torn apart by the pressure.  Similar, I guess, to how Madara exploded from Tsunade's punch, or how Madara got his arm blown off by bijuu tail bashing.  It's just nice when you can cite a more standard example, because blunt force isn't often applied to Tsunade, strangely enough.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That gif keeps making me laugh, so imma make a set of the Raikage's elbow and Juugo's bad day.
> 
> 
> As for the point, tell me though, what exactly would have changed had Juugo known the Raikage was coming? Would Ei have gotten weaker and failed to knock the poor soul out?



I prefer the GIF where Sasuke does a quintuple spin kick into Bee's throat, and he just writes down lyrics.  But it's a good one.

I think if he knew Raikage was coming, it would turn out more like their first exchange.  He wouldn't have been blasted straight into a wall, since he would at least has position, footing, and grounding to dissipate and brace against the force, and kept a lower center of gravity.  He probably would have still lost, and been knocked back, because I view the Raikage as superior in physical strength, but he probably wouldn't have been eliminated.  So it's not of matter of Raikage being weaker, it's a matter of Juugo being better able to cope with the force Raikage imparts on him.  

A real life example would be like a sumo wrestler.  If they're standing on their tip toes, shopping in the super market unaware, they could be knocked over really easily.  But when they're in a match, in their sumo stance, huge guys slam into them really hard, and they don't fall over.  


...and now I'm imagining a football player tackling a fat guy into a display stand.

  

I didn't see your avi.  Oh my gosh. 

I wish I hadn't just repped you.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I prefer the GIF where Sasuke does a quintuple spin kick into Bee's throat, and he just writes down lyrics.  But it's a good one.
> 
> I think if he knew Raikage was coming, it would turn out more like their first exchange.  He wouldn't have been blasted straight into a wall, since he would at least has position, footing, and grounding to dissipate and brace against the force, and kept a lower center of gravity.  He probably would have still lost, and been knocked back, because I view the Raikage as superior in physical strength, but he probably wouldn't have been eliminated.  So it's not of matter of Raikage being weaker, it's a matter of Juugo being better able to cope with the force Raikage imparts on him.
> 
> ...




Good explanation. I agree with it.




> I didn't see your avi.  Oh my gosh.
> 
> I wish I hadn't just repped you.



 

That image embodies what I enjoy about the Raikage. It's fun to see something bashed right in the happiness with a torso-sized elbow.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 5, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Yeah, where's your evidence that Tsunade didn't simply have her body wrapped with Katsuyu like every single other villager had?



The fact that there was no Katsuyu anywhere near her on-panel, maybe? Given the fact that she was buried inside a crevice, I don't see how a human-sized clone could have managed to wrap around her either, never mind abandoned her master and wandered off whenever she was literally on the verge of _death_. Fuck logic.



> To cut things to the point, we don't actually see Tsunade with any sort of Katsuyu division in the nearby vicinity following Pain's destruction of the Leaf Village. In fact, we see her right next to a freakin' ANBU Black Ops bodyguard, both reasonably unharmed. If you're going to make the claim that Tsunade has enough durability to take a full-power Shinra Tensei, you're going to have to do the same for that chump fodder.



That chump fodder arrived to Tsunade's aid from _off-panel_. It should stand to reason that, since literally every other shinobi in the village was protected by Katsuyu, that that ANBU guard was protected also. Hell, even _corpses_ were being protected, so why the hell would one of her loyal high-ranking guards not be protected too? Once again, *fuck logic*.



> Which, in turn, makes it an *outlier* and non-valid.



No, it is _completely_ valid.




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Think of this way; when Susano'o or Zetsu's statue hit Mei, the forces behind those punches were distributed throughout Mei's entire body since the fists of those creatures are so big. Since Naruto is much smaller, he can exert a similar force upon a much smaller, more vulnerable area. If Naruto were to smash Tsunade in, say, the throat, that's going to be much harder to swallow than getting smacked by something like a Susano'o hand.  Imo, if Tsunade receives all of the force Naruto can dish out in the form of an uppercut to the jaw, it's "GG bro".



I understand and appreciate the logic that you're using, but Tsunade's durability and/or resilience to damage isn't limited to just being smacked around by Susano'o swords/fists. She took a Yasaka Magatama that was focalised at her chest at point blank range without sustaining much, if any damage. She was then smashed into a large rock face as a result of that blow with so much force that it literally exploded. That damage also didn't appear to phase her _at all_. I could confidently say that based on this alone a single SM strike to the neck isn't going to slow her down much.

I imagine being thrown at lightning speed inflicts a huge amount of physical trauma as well. 

Also, I don't believe Tsunade is going to be blitzed in the neck every time Naruto engages her in combat. She's quick enough to attack in unison with Base Ei. She can move faster than an airborne Onoki, who Akatsuchi noted to be far too fast for him to keep up with. She was also capable of repelling five large fireballs with her fists in quick succession - something she accomplished before Mei Terumi could pull out a suiton, or faster even than Onoki, Gaara (who were admittedly exhausted) or even Base Ei could react. 

She's also more skilled in the art of the taijutsu than Naruto is. 

All that considered, blocking is something within the range of possibility for Tsunade, even if she can't do it all the time. Blocking/parrying obviously reduces the damage she sustains, so that's going to drag the match out even further.​​


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 5, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> .That chump fodder arrived to Tsunade's aid from _off-panel_. It should stand to reason that, since literally every other shinobi in the village was protected by Katsuyu, that that ANBU guard was protected also. Hell, even _corpses_ were being protected, so why the hell would one of her loyal high-ranking guards not be protected too? Once again, *fuck logic*.​




Not everybody was. Katsuyu was ordered to heal all the injured, not to protect everybody against Shinra Tensei because nor Tsunade or Katsuyu saw it coming or knew that Deva would decide to use it. Therefore the ANBU that was with her was not given a katsuyu clone, since the slug is clearly dividing and going to heal the villagers and the man wasn't even fighting.​


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 5, 2014)

Katsuyu canonly states that she surrounds everyone. We have about three pages dedicated to showing the slugs surrounding Konoha shinobi. That's a fairly accurate basis to go off.

And again, even corpses were being protected. Cold, lifeless bodies. She wasn't just healing.​​


----------



## Joakim3 (Mar 5, 2014)

SM Naruto stomps.... he outmaneuvered Tendo & Raikagenaut (thanks to sensing) who are both faster than Tsunade, which means she's never landing a hit on him unless he chooses so. 

Couple that with Naruto's own Tsunade level strength and _Kawazu Kumite_ and Tsunade is going to be dropped, re-dropped and dropped again until she no longer can stand


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 5, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Katsuyu canonly states that she surrounds everyone. We have about three pages dedicated to showing the slugs surrounding Konoha shinobi. That's a fairly accurate basis to go off.​




She states that, yeah. But she protected the people she could before CST was fired since the attack came fast enough that Tsunade barely knew what happened.

And yeah, we have pages of the slug sorrounding Konoha shinobis, but she is not shown in the same manner with Tsunade and the ANBU that was always with her. They even both get up in the same place after the attack and no Katsuyu is shown there.



> And again, even corpses were being protected. Cold, lifeless bodies. She wasn't just healing.


​
But her intention, or at least, how Tsunade used her was to take care of the injured, therefore the ANBU that was with her couldn't have got one, despite not being shown to have one and being shown in near Tsunade and unprotected. Wich implies he got the same hit Tsunade did. 

I also don't think Katsuyu's size is enough to cover an entire village in human sized forms, though. But that's another story..

As you can see in the spoilers below, Kishi took his time to show Katsuyu protecting everybody (or almost everybody).




Everybody... save the same ANBU that was pursuing Pain with Tsunade.



The ANBU, like Tsunade, never appeared to have a clone or to be given, before and after. And Tsunade ordering Katsuyu to heal the injured and the slug dividing down to search for everybody supports this, though.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 5, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> She states that, yeah. But she protected the people she could before CST was fired since the attack came fast enough that Tsunade barely knew what happened.



Tsunade didn't know what Pein was doing exactly, but _evidently_ she gathered that he was launching an attack at the village. If Katsuyu states that she protected everyone, then I'm going to take manga fact over your opinion, no offence.



> And yeah, we have pages of the slug sorrounding Konoha shinobis, but she is not shown in the same manner with Tsunade and the ANBU that was always with her. They even both get up in the same place after the attack and no Katsuyu is shown there.



What? The ANBU comes from off-panel. Tsunade comes from beneath a pile of rocks. So either:

a) The ANBU is a tank and somehow took no damage from the CST despite the fact that some people who were actually _protected_ did

or

b) He was protected off-panel and, as her dutiful guard, went to find her afterwards. 

The answer is very obvious.




> But her intention, or at least, how Tsunade used her was to take care of the injured, therefore the ANBU that was with her couldn't have got one, despite not being shown to have one and being shown in near Tsunade with blood in his mask and unprotected. Wich implies he got the same hit Tsunade did.



That was Tsunade's intention pre-CST. When he fires the attack she releases her seal and orders the clones to surround the villagers. Obviously. 



> I also don't think Katsuyu's size is enough to cover an entire village in human sized forms, though. But that's another story..



The clones can divide endlessly. The population of Konoha can't possibly exceed a few thousand, judging from its size. I think that is loosely within the realms of possibility for Katsuyu, though your point is certainly fair. It is debatable whether or not she was large enough. Regardless, the fact remains clear that she did surround everyone.



> As you can see in the spoilers below, Kishi took his time to show Katsuyu protecting everybody (or almost everybody).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wat? You make no sense. If we are to assume that everyone who wasn't shown on-panel to be surrounded was not surrounded, then fodders like Teuchi, random civilians and little children are all ridiculously durable. That obviously isn't the case, because if civilians were not at risk of being killed by the attack, then Tsunade would not have taken such drastic measures to protect them. The fact that some shinobi were injured despite being protected shows that civilians and fodders like that ANBU obviously could not tank the attack.

And to reiterate once again, the ANBU came from _off-panel_. Meaning _anything_ could have happened to him. Tsunade appears from beneath a heap of rubble, and there is no Katsuyu near her when the ANBU finds her. That says nothing of what happened to him, because he was somewhere else. It only shows that Tsunade was not protected from the attack.​​


----------



## Rocky (Mar 5, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> She took a Yasaka Magatama that was focalised at her chest at point blank range without sustaining much, if any damage. She was then smashed into a large rock face as a result of that blow with so much force that it literally exploded. That damage also didn't appear to phase her _at all_. I could confidently say that based on this alone a single SM strike to the neck isn't going to slow her down much.




The feat is noted, but I'e already admitted that it wouldn't be in Naruto's best interest to aim towards her mid section. If Naruto plays it smart, this fight is his imo. When his clone fought the Raikage, Naruto ducked and counter-attacked the him before he could really respond. Naruto can do something similar when Tsunade goes to deliver one of those full-force killshots, but instead of aiming at her arm, aim at a spot that can't take much punishment, like the throat, temple bone, etc.

Tsunade isn't the FRS-tanking 3rd Raikage. Naruto doesn't have to rocket her own attack back at her with a Rasengan. Because of all his flashyness, people seem to overlook the fact that Naruto hits _hard_. He's still to this date the *only* person who's killed somebody with a single blow. Tsunade is much tougher than Preta Pain yes, but Naruto doesn't have to kill her with one shot. If he _stuns_ her, her can follow up with more devastating kicks, stomps, and punches to the face until she's out cold.



> I imagine being thrown at lightning speed inflicts a huge amount of physical trauma as well.




Is this referencing Mabui's technique? She needed Genesis Rebirth to restore the injuries she suffered from that technique; I doubt she could handle it and continue to fight without her regeneration.



> Also, I don't believe Tsunade is going to be blitzed in the neck every time Naruto engages her in combat. She's quick enough to attack in unison with Base Ei. She can move faster than an airborne Onoki, who Akatsuchi noted to be far too fast for him to keep up with. She was also capable of repelling five large fireballs with her fists in quick succession - something she accomplished before Mei Terumi could pull out a suiton, or faster even than Onoki, Gaara (who were admittedly exhausted) or even Base Ei could react.




Tsunade isn't slow, and she's quite perceptive, but she's going against a Perfect Sage. They have speed enhancements from Sage Mode, and highly advanced sensing to further increase perceptual ability. He isn't going to blitz her, but her maneuvers should be easy to read, much like Sauce, _despite being slower_, could read KN0's back at the VotE.



> She's also more skilled in the art of the taijutsu than Naruto is.
> 
> All that considered, blocking is something within the range of possibility for Tsunade, even if she can't do it all the time. Blocking/parrying obviously reduces the damage she sustains, so that's going to drag the match out even further.




If we were to strip both of them of their powers, put them a ring, and say "only boxing, kicking, and grappling allowed," then yeah, Tsunade would whip some blonde boy butt. However, if Naruto is allowed to use the Frog Taijutsu style that he _mastered_ (ie. 5/5 in the Databook), then Tsunade and Naruto should be relatively even. BUT, Naruto has the style advantage, as Frog Katas doesn't even require physical contact to be effective. It's the best Taijutsu style imo, and it can help Naruto connect with those vulnerable spots I brought up earlier.

As for the blocking, again, blocking what you cannot see is difficult. If Naruto charges in like an idiot, she'll block him and counter kick his lights out. If he plays it smart, relies on his sensing and counter punching, and uses Frog Kata's to ensure he connects with a delicate area, I think he can take her.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 5, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade didn't know what Pein was doing exactly, but _evidently_ she gathered that he was launching an attack at the village. If Katsuyu states that she protected everyone, then I'm going to take manga fact over your opinion, no offence.​




She didn't know he was going to do something. That is evident when she asks herself what happened.



> What? The ANBU comes from off-panel. Tsunade comes from beneath a pile of rocks. So either:



He came from nowhere. He was there when Tsunade got up.



> a) The ANBU is a tank and somehow took no damage from the CST despite the fact that some people who were actually _protected_ did
> 
> or
> 
> ...



Or CST was redistributed so the damage wasn't as big as you are making it look.





> That was Tsunade's intention pre-CST. When he fires the attack she releases her seal and orders the clones to surround the villagers. Obviously.



She didn't know Deva was going to attack period. She couldn't have ordered nothing, especially not having a Katsuyu on her shoulders.



> The clones can divide endlessly. The population of Konoha can't possibly exceed a few thousand, judging from its size. I think that is loosely within the realms of possibility for Katsuyu, though your point is certainly fair. It is debatable whether or not she was large enough. Regardless, the fact remains clear that she did surround everyone.



She cannot divide endlessly if she has a size. She can divide as long as her size allows her, and to protect everybody she had to divide in human size proportions or bigger.



> Wat? You make no sense. If we are to assume that everyone who wasn't shown on-panel to be surrounded was not surrounded, then fodders like Teuchi, random civilians and little children are all ridiculously durable. That obviously isn't the case, because if civilians were not at risk of being killed by the attack, then Tsunade would not have taken such drastic measures to protect them. The fact that some shinobi were injured despite being protected shows that civilians and fodders like that ANBU obviously could not tank the attack.
> 
> And to reiterate once again, the ANBU came from _off-panel_. Meaning _anything_ could have happened to him. Tsunade appears from beneath a heap of rubble, and there is no Katsuyu near her when the ANBU finds her. That says nothing of what happened to him, because he was somewhere else. It only shows that Tsunade was not protected from the attack.


​
He didn't came from off panel man. He was there all the time. I don't know but i find this to be a very convenient and big casuality that she is seen with an ANBU, pursues with an ANBU, appears with an ANBU after CST and comes with an ANBU but somehow he, who was with her, was sent flying in another direction.

Even if he had, he was not protected. He was not shown to be given a Katsuyu clone either. and when Katsuyu divided she went after the injured first, so the ANBU didn't got any.

Please don't say my arguments have no sense backing yours with especulations. It's unnecesary as well.


----------



## The World (Mar 5, 2014)

SM Nardo has the advantage of frog katas and increased reactions

but if Tsunade gets a hit off I can see her one shotting


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2014)

ANBU ANBU ANBU ANBU said:


> ANBU this and that



You guys care way too much about some random ANBU.  He existed in order to give exposition on Tsunade's seal, and what she did, and how she's out of chakra.  How he survived, his durability, ect, that stuff isn't important, because he needed to be there to do his job.  Kishi originally intended for Tsunade to defeat Deva, but when he got convinced otherwise, he needed to sideline Tsunade, and give a reason why the Hokage couldn't get in there and join the fight.  So he had her save everyone from CST and made her spend all her chakra healing a village and suffering a gigantic attack so Naruto could come in and save her without making her look weak.  Then he threw in a random ANBU to explain that.  I really don't think he went through all that trouble for the takeaway message to be, "CST is a weak jutsu, that even a fodder can tank.  lol Tsunade."  

*@ Rocky*

Naruto doesn't punch people in the throat.  He probably isn't going to suddenly change his IC style and tactics to deal with a sturdy opponent.  Secondly, weak points are conveniently overlooked or granted super durability for the sake of sturdy people.  If you remember Kimmimaro, he got super crushed by Gaara's sand, and notes that he protected his body with his durable bone plating.  Except for his eyeballs, that weren't plated, and exposed, but yeah, they were fine.  They were fine because he had durability and used a trick to survive sand crushing, so sand crushing didn't work, and that's as far as the manga and Kishi was concerned happened.  It's a fictional logic that keeps the universe running in a way that causes us to get cooler fights.  

Secondly, as rare as it happened, Tsunade actually has protected her throat from throat attacks on panel.  So if there's anyone who's suited to defended against it, it's her.  

Finally, if you're going to grant Naruto the adaptation to his IC habits and taijutsu needed to counter Tsunade, then in fairness, you should grant her the same.  Allow her to figure out that her standard style is going to be ineffective, and allow her to attack and damage his attacking limbs and break his offence.  This should be more than fair, considering it's something she's actually displayed doing to Naruto on panel.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Mar 5, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> What? The ANBU comes from off-panel. Tsunade comes from beneath a pile of rocks. So either:
> 
> a) The ANBU is a tank and somehow took no damage from the CST despite the fact that some people who were actually _protected_ did
> 
> ...



The ANBU was shown right next to her moments before Pain destroyed Konoha.  

He did NOT come from off-panel.  He's not even facing her.  

So, do you think he saw Pain jump into the air and ran away before walking backward after the destruction of Konoha?


----------



## Rocky (Mar 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Naruto doesn't punch people in the throat.  He probably isn't going to suddenly change his IC style and tactics to deal with a sturdy opponent.  Secondly, weak points are conveniently overlooked or granted super durability for the sake of sturdy people.  If you remember Kimmimaro, he got super crushed by Gaara's sand, and notes that he protected his body with his durable bone plating.  Except for his eyeballs, that weren't plated, and exposed, but yeah, they were fine.  They were fine because he had durability and used a trick to survive sand crushing, so sand crushing didn't work, and that's as far as the manga and Kishi was concerned happened.  It's a fictional logic that keeps the universe running in a way that causes us to get cooler fights.



I'll address the IC stuff in the third point.

As for the durability thing....yeah I agree with you. I've actually argued that same point in "Itachi with Kunai vs. Base Raikage" threads. But, as I've said, I don't believe Tsunade falls into that category of "steel skinned, iron blooded, super durable" people, meaning I still believe she is susceptible to injuries other normal Shinobi could sustain. 

Targeting vitals or week spots is not something alien to this Manga. Preskip Kabuto and Haku revolved around it. Zabuza, this big mean dude, was knocked out by a single Senbon to the back  of the neck. Jiraiya blinded a Pain path by aiming at the eyes. There are probably others, I'll edit if they come to me.



> Secondly, as rare as it happened, Tsunade actually has protected her throat from throat attacks on panel.  So if there's anyone who's suited to defended against it, it's her.




...I would expect her to attempt to guard. That's a given. I just doubt she'll be able to, similar to how the 3rd Raikage failed to prevent Naruto from launching his own attack back at him. Timing is everything. Furthermore, if he uses the ghost punches to attack her, she won't see anything to guard against.



> Finally, if you're going to grant Naruto the adaptation to his IC habits and taijutsu needed to counter Tsunade, then in fairness, you should grant her the same.  Allow her to figure out that her standard style is going to be ineffective, and allow her to attack and damage his attacking limbs and break his offence.  This should be more than fair, considering it's something she's actually displayed doing to Naruto on panel.




When we pit Shinobi who haven't faced off in the Manga against each other here, I expect "IC habits" (whatever that _truly_ means) to vary. A fighter's approach to a combat situation will change depending on the circumstances and their foreknowledge of their opponent. Gai doesn't "IC" stare at a person's feet when he fights them, but based on his prior information on a particular opponent (in this example, Itachi), he adapted his fighting style to put himself in a favorable position. 

"Naruto doesn't punch people in the throat" because that's never been his most viable option. Punching Pain in the cheek (an easier target to hit) killed him, and punching Sandaime in the throat would have been pointless. He may decide to hit Tsunade in the head first, but she'll get up. This is usually the point in time where he would opt throw the Rasenshuriken and call it a day. He can't _do_ that here though, so we have to think outside the box. How would Naruto act if he had to beat a resiliant  opponent with only his Taijutsu? I don't believe he would wail away at her until he tired and she was finally able to catch him. I think he'd use his brain and start aiming at spots that she can't afford to have _smashed_ by Naruto's roof tier strength.

I do expect Tsunade to adapt to Naruto's style as well, and attempting those counter attacks on his limbs is a way to go about it. Bu now for my rebuttal; how? Naruto moves faster; his punches won't be flat out intercepted. If she dodges and attempts to shatter his limb, she's gonna catch a natural energy hook to the jaw. Actually, rather than attack his limbs, Tsunade should just attack his torso and kill him. The problem is Naruto's danger sensing. He can duck and subsequently counterstrike people much more reflexive than Tsunade. Actually, his _Shadow Clones_ can do that.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 5, 2014)

SM Naruto comfortably takes this


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 6, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> She didn't know he was going to do something. That is evident when she asks herself what happened.



The only thing that makes evident is that Tsunade wasn't expecting the attack to be on _that large_ of a scale when she poured all of her Chakra into Katsuyu.



> She didn't know Deva was going to attack period. She couldn't have ordered nothing, especially not having a Katsuyu on her shoulders.



It is explicitly stated that the reason she transmitted all of her Chakra to Katsuyu _was to protect the villagers from Pein's technique_, which wouldn't happen if she hadn't figured out he was going to launch an attack.

Quite honestly, figuring out that Deva was about to attack shouldn't have required anything more than an educated guess, what with him talking about experiencing true pain and all and then hovering over the village. It was pretty much a given, and Tsunade has a maximal five out of five in intelligence.

Considering that Tsunade was getting reports and sending out messages through Katsuyu it's rather clear she has some sort of mental connection with it, presumably across the same sort of "Chakra cloud" she used to siphon her Chakra out to the slug, meaning she could have still ordered Katsuyu to do something.



> She can divide as long as her size allows her, and to protect everybody she had to divide in human size proportions or bigger.



A slug of that size is a few thousand times thicker than any villager.



> she is seen with an ANBU, pursues with an ANBU, appears with an ANBU after CST and comes with an ANBU but somehow he, who was with her, was sent flying in another direction.



I think those are two different Anbu anyway. You can tell by the length of their hair, which was shown to be different while Deva was still standing right in front of all of them; one's spikes extend slightly above and past the edge of his mask while the other's falls short of the mask's ears.

The one alongside running alongside Tsunade had hair that fell short of the ears of the mask he was wearing, unlike the one seen with her after the impact whose hair extended past them.

The one that was actually with Tsunade disappeared and was never heard from again, meaning he probably died, because as you said he couldn't have gotten a division.



Rocky said:


> But, as I've said, I don't believe Tsunade falls into that category of "steel skinned, iron blooded, super durable" people, meaning I still believe she is susceptible to injuries other normal Shinobi could sustain.



Out of curiosity; where would your cut-off line for that distinction be?

I mean, the jump to lightspeed is serious business that would turn a normal person into splats with its inertia, so I'd think the fact that Tsunade was still virtually in one piece to even activate _Sōzō Saisei_ after emerging from Mabui's _Tensō no Jutsu_ necessitates that she is super durable.



> ...I would expect her to attempt to guard. That's a given. I just doubt she'll be able to, similar to how the 3rd Raikage failed to prevent Naruto from launching his own attack back at him. Timing is everything.



The Third Raikage failed to guard because he was the charging aggressor, in the middle of a very broad strength-focused lunge that was carrying him forwards, under Kabuto's direct control. There exists a very real chance that the Hokage is going to be the one playing on the defensive at some point or another, especially when she's without her regeneration, at which point it won't be similar to the Third's case at all.



> Furthermore, if he uses the ghost punches to attack her, she won't see anything to guard against.



Neither did Deva, and as _ueharakk_ already pointed out, the ghost punch won't extend past a defense if the actual physical attack is blocked.



> I do expect Tsunade to adapt to Naruto's style as well, and attempting those counter attacks on his limbs is a way to go about it. Bu now for my rebuttal; how?



Passing off _Ranshinshō_ as an attempted block seems like a _far_ better way to go about it to me.

It's a much more subtle counter than actually evading and striking back immediately afterwards.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Out of curiosity; where would your cut-off line for that distinction be?
> 
> I mean, the jump to lightspeed is serious business that would turn a normal person into splats with its inertia, so I'd think the fact that Tsunade was still virtually in one piece to even activate _Sōzō Saisei_ after emerging from Mabui's _Tensō no Jutsu_ necessitates that she is super durable.




I would actually probably cut it off at the Raikages tbh. In other words, completely tanking Mabui's technique, having swords bounce off you, etc.

Tsunade is more durable than your average joe, no doubt, but Sage Naruto's hits kill those guys upon impact. That's why I think she'd have trouble absorbing one of those to the nose, or other vulnerable areas.



> The Third Raikage failed to guard because he was the charging aggressor, in the middle of a very broad strength-focused lunge that was carrying him forwards, under Kabuto's direct control. There exists a very real chance that the Hokage is going to be the one playing on the defensive at some point or another, especially when she's without her regeneration, at which point it won't be similar to the Third's case at all.




If Tsunade doesn't throw the full force punches, then you are right; that wouldn't work. My point only applied to the times where Tsunade is the charging aggressor, since she seems to be in that role often.

If they both take a defensive approach, I still think that favors Naruto though. He can perceive her manuvers much easier with the danger sensing. Honestly, Naruto has full knowledge on Tsunade, while the Hokage knows nothing of the ghost punches. They are so random, so unexpected. If she's stunned by one of them, that could be the opening Naruto could use to land more...devastating blows.



> Neither did Deva, and as _ueharakk_ already pointed out, the ghost punch won't extend past a defense if the actual physical attack is blocked.



If she blocks the actual fist, then yes, right again. However, if she _evades_ his punch, then the ghost punch will catch her by complete surprise.




> Passing off _Ranshinshō_ as an attempted block seems like a _far_ better way to go about it to me.
> 
> It's a much more subtle counter than actually evading and striking back immediately afterwards.




Very true, good idea. However, Naruto knows of that technique and may be watching for it. Also, I'm, pretty sure she'll primarily be using her arms to guard, which would make it awkward to attempt a subtle Rashinsho. There's also the possibility that she'll go flying (like Tendo) when Naruto makes contact. He's incredibly strong as well.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2014)

Naruto typically tries the same thing over and over again until it works, or suddenly gets a good idea in the middle of battle as the fight drags on.  His intelligence in he Sandaime fight is something that typically doesn't happen with him.  As for targeting vitals, and using Haku and other highly refined precision based characters as your examples, I just have to say that Naruto isn't one of those characters.  Naruto is not going to poke pressure points like Neji.  Also, yes, if Naruto had hit base Sasuke in the throat when he was on top of him pounding at his face, then that probably would have been better than aiming for the face.  He just didn't do that.  

Also, Mabui's teleport is full a full body experience.  This includes Tsunade's throat.  We can even see that area had damage.  I don't think Naruto hits that hard.  I really think the idea that Senju are normal flew out the window when their cells became plot devices counter-positioned to the sharingan.  Plus Tsunade still took magatama without a scratch to regenerate.  Not that I think she enjoyed getting hit by them, or that it wasn't painful.


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Naruto typically tries the same thing over and over again until it works, or suddenly gets a good idea in the middle of battle as the fight drags on.  His intelligence in he Sandaime fight is something that typically doesn't happen with him.  As for targeting vitals, and using Haku and other highly refined precision based characters as your examples, I just have to say that Naruto isn't one of those characters.  Naruto is not going to poke pressure points like Neji.  Also, yes, if Naruto had hit base Sasuke in the throat when he was on top of him pounding at his face, then that probably would have been better than aiming for the face.  He just didn't do that.
> 
> Also, Mabui's teleport is full a full body experience.  This includes Tsunade's throat.  We can even see that area had damage.  I don't think Naruto hits that hard.  I really think the idea that Senju are normal flew out the window when their cells became plot devices counter-positioned to the sharingan.  Plus Tsunade still took magatama without a scratch to regenerate.  Not that I think she enjoyed getting hit by them, or that it wasn't painful.



she did regenerate from the magatama, she just took way more damage from the sword which is why its still regenning after the magatama damage is gone.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> she did regenerate from the magatama, she just took way more damage from the sword which is why its still regenning after the magatama damage is gone.



Is it something you can point out?  I couldn't find any damage or glowing or clothing tears.


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Is it something you can point out?  I couldn't find any damage or glowing or clothing tears.



I can't show a scan of her actively healing, but i can give you my reasoning for why i think it's more plausible she healed from it rather than just tanked it.  Tsunade has never been stated or implied to have super durability, madara even saw her get cut up by the lightspeed travel while ei was just scuffed.  We know that RnY Ei is way more durable than base Ei, and RnY Ei still gets damaged by chidori.  

I find it less likely that YM is so weak that despite it sending tsunade through boulders as an after-effect of its concussive force, that she'd sustain no damage from it, and given the speed at which she's healed from *superficial damage * she'd have more than enough time to heal from YM while the smoke clears.  Madara's YM that he used on gaara and oonoki's combined defense almost got through it, so a miniture version of that technique should be very powerful when not used on something super durable.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Naruto typically tries the same thing over and over again until it works, or suddenly gets a good idea in the middle of battle as the fight drags on.  His intelligence in he Sandaime fight is something that typically doesn't happen with him.




You're kidding, right?

Let's just say that "trying the same thing over and over again" wouldn't have worked against Pain's Chakra absorption, revival, and gravity manipulation. I think you basically forgot about Sage Naruto's one major fight, because in that bout he figured out solutions to problems much more complicated then "where should I aim to hit a person that can take a punch.' Like jesus, any random girl knows that if she's assaulted by a man to claw at his eyes, knee him in the nuts, etc. Targeting a vulnerable spot is not by any stretch of the imagination "out of character" for an elite super Sage ninja. 



> As for targeting vitals, and using Haku and other highly refined precision based characters as your examples, I just have to say that Naruto isn't one of those characters.  Naruto is not going to poke pressure points like Neji.  Also, yes, if Naruto had hit base Sasuke in the throat when he was on top of him pounding at his face, then that probably would have been better than aiming for the face.  He just didn't do that.




Precision based? I sited Haku and _Jiraiya. _

And you're siting Naruto's rage induced preskip tendencies, which don't mean _anything_ in this particular thread. Naruto doesn't have to poke pressure ponts like Neji, but he's smart enough to figure out that he should hit Tsunade where it hurts. This is a very basic concept. 



> Also, Mabui's teleport is full a full body experience.  This includes Tsunade's throat.  We can even see that area had damage.  I don't think Naruto hits that hard.  I really think the idea that Senju are normal flew out the window when their cells became plot devices counter-positioned to the sharingan.  Plus Tsunade still took magatama without a scratch to regenerate.  Not that I think she enjoyed getting hit by them, or that it wasn't painful.




I get that Mabui's technique hit her everywhere, but Tsunade healed after. If her throat was messed up to the point that she couldn't continue, it would have been healed....and I think that technique is overrated. I mean, Sasuke's base Chidori inflicted a more serious wound to the Raikage, through his Raiton shroud to boot...

Senju cells didn't become plot devises. Hashirama's specifically did, not Tobirama's, not Tsunade's, not any random fodder Senju.....Hashirama. Senju aren't even known for their durability, just their advanced medical techniques I suppose. It's not like Madara's black rods were bouncing off Hashirama & Tobirama.


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I would actually probably cut it off at the Raikages tbh. In other words, completely tanking Mabui's technique, having swords bounce off you, etc.


I see. 



> Tsunade is more durable than your average joe, no doubt, but Sage Naruto's hits kill those guys upon impact. That's why I think she'd have trouble absorbing one of those to the nose, or other vulnerable areas.


But then there's the fact that _on top of that_ she's also vastly more resilient due to being a hybridized version of the Senju and Uzumaki clans, who individually would be counted among the manga's select "special" ninjas that can continue functioning and pulling off high-level Ninjutsu for extended periods of time in conditions that would kill most people immediately.

That's why...



> If she blocks the actual fist, then yes, right again. However, if she _evades_ his punch, then the ghost punch will catch her by complete surprise.


I can agree with this, but I also imagine that if this happens Tsunade ought to bounce back from it relatively hastily largely by virtue of her astonishing resilience as much as it'll hurt, and that one surprise is all it should take to tip her off to the fact that she's better off blocking if she doesn't start off that way.



> If Tsunade doesn't throw the full force punches, then you are right; that wouldn't work. My point only applied to the times where Tsunade is the charging aggressor, since she seems to be in that role often.


Whilst it is true that she has been seen in that role often I think it's worth considering that the first time she was given that role she was bloodlusted on top of simply being out of practice, and she activated her currently restricted regeneration the other time though Raikage's words imply she still approached her clones more cautiously at first.

When she was calmer and not having her deceased loves disrespected, however, she conversely chose the retaliatory role both times Naruto challenged her as opposed to the aggressing one, and canonically placed defense over offense when she established the medic rules.



> If they both take a defensive approach, I still think that favors Naruto though. He can perceive her manuvers much easier with the danger sensing. Honestly, Naruto has full knowledge on Tsunade, while the Hokage knows nothing of the ghost punches. They are so random, so unexpected. If she's stunned by one of them, that could be the opening Naruto could use to land more...devastating blows.


Well, we know at least some Hyugas were watching the battle between Sage Naruto and Pein, and I'm willing to bet the events were reported in an attempt to consider as much info as possible when the village's were developing counters to the _Rinnegan_'s abilities before the war. So while it's possible that she doesn't know, she may very well actually have surface knowledge on them.

On the other hand...



> Very true, good idea. However, Naruto knows of that technique and may be watching for it. Also, I'm, pretty sure she'll primarily be using her arms to guard, which would make it awkward to attempt a subtle Rashinsho. There's also the possibility that she'll go flying (like Tendo) when Naruto makes contact. He's incredibly strong as well.


I don't know why Naruto would have knowledge on _Ranshinshō_. He only arrived at the Grassy Waves Prairie _after_ Kabuto had learned to deal with it and begun to move again, and I see no incentive for Tsunade to have gone and revealed it to him or anyone that may have passed it on to him. As such, I'm certain he won't be watching for it.

Tsunade ought to be able to attempt a block with the back or side of her hand just as easily as she can guard with the back or side of the forearm attached to it, too, as the motion is nigh identical. So if she employed this tactic I can't imagine why she'd have an issue with any sort of "awkwardness" related to it.

Unless we're picturing Tsunade doing completely different motions when I say "pass off as a block" for some reason...


----------



## Rocky (Mar 7, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> But then there's the fact that _on top of that_ she's also vastly more resilient due to being a hybridized version of the Senju and Uzumaki clans, who individually would be counted among the manga's select "special" ninjas that can continue functioning and pulling off high-level Ninjutsu for extended periods of time in conditions that would kill most people immediately.




 

So you believe that she'll battle through any severe injuries she may sustain? If Naruto smashes in her wind pipe, I will grant you that her natural resilience could allow her to fight through it. _However_, how effective in combat would she be? I'm thinking of Kushina; even though she survived something that would kill a "normal" person, she could barley stand after. No amount of resilience can fix a broken leg, for example. Even if Tsunade wills through her injuries, her body will still suffer the physical trauma.....and she can't afford much if she wants to hit Sage Naruto through his danger sensing.




> I can agree with this, but I also imagine that if this happens Tsunade ought to bounce back from it relatively hastily largely by virtue of her astonishing resilience as much as it'll hurt, and that one surprise is all it should take to tip her off to the fact that she's better off blocking if she doesn't start off that way.




True, but blocking all day will get her nowhere. Taking away Tsunade's ability to dodge and counter punch is a huge advantage for Naruto, imo. Remember, he's nearly as strong as her by showings (not counting her Chakra enhanced striking power). If she guards, she's probably going to get sent flying.



> Whilst it is true that she has been seen in that role often I think it's worth considering that the first time she was given that role she was bloodlusted on top of simply being out of practice, and she activated her currently restricted regeneration the other time though Raikage's words imply she still approached her clones more cautiously at first.
> 
> When she was calmer and not having her deceased loves disrespected, however, she conversely chose the retaliatory role both times Naruto challenged her as opposed to the aggressing one, and canonically placed defense over offense when she established the medic rules.




"Being the aggressor" in her skirmish with preskip Naruto would've resulted in a dead Naruto. The gap in general level & combat ability was massive. If I was playfighting with a child, I wouldn't attack _them._ As for her medical rules....they seemed to be geared more towards team play. The objective was to be extremely defensive in order to survive IIRC, as the death of the medic was game over for the team.

This doesn't matter much though. I agree that after catching a ghost hook, Tsunade is intelligent enough to realize that a defensive approach would be more suitable against someone like Naruto.



> Well, we know at least some Hyugas were watching the battle between Sage Naruto and Pein, and I'm willing to bet the events were reported in an attempt to consider as much info as possible when the village's were developing counters to the _Rinnegan_'s abilities before the war. So while it's possible that she doesn't know, she may very well actually have surface knowledge on them.




While it's plausible, this is still speculation. Since she hasn't been given information on them (on panel), then we should just agree that she doesn't know, at least for Battledome fights. The solution to this argument is based on the unknown, and for knowledge stipulations here, we tend to go with absolutes (or what is most likely). 

Naruto used the Frog Kata's very early in the match against Pain anyway, so it's also uncertain as to whether or not the Hyuuga were even observing yet.




> I don't know why Naruto would have knowledge on _Ranshinshō_. He only arrived at the Grassy Waves Prairie _after_ Kabuto had learned to deal with it and begun to move again, and I see no incentive for Tsunade to have gone and revealed it to him or anyone that may have passed it on to him. As such, I'm certain he won't be watching for it.




My mistake. I'm again shaky on Part 1. Point conceded. 



> Tsunade ought to be able to attempt a block with the back or side of her hand just as easily as she can guard with the back or side of the forearm attached to it, too, as the motion is nigh identical. So if she employed this tactic I can't imagine why she'd have an issue with any sort of "awkwardness" related to it.
> 
> Unless we're picturing Tsunade doing completely different motions when I say "pass off as a block" for some reason...




I'm now realizing that Ranshinsho, an A-rank Ninjustu, should be restricted in a Taijutsu match. If we give Tsunade her high level Ninjutsu, then Naruto should be allowed his, like Godsenshuriken. 

But, for the sake of arguing, can Tsunade actually use Ransinsho from the back of her hand, and would it work if applied to an area like Naruto's fist?


----------



## Lord Aizen (Mar 7, 2014)

Tsunade gets stomped into the ground she won't be able to touch sm naruto. His reflexes are top tier, speed increased, frog kata = GG


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Mar 7, 2014)

Tsunade gets shrekt. Frog Katas is too powerful and too versatile for her. Naruto dodges everything she has and attacks her with path killing punches.


----------



## PAWS (Mar 7, 2014)

And when Naruto's SM runs out? Tsunade ends it. She has shown feats durable enough to take punches from SM. Not to mention the fact that she can still use medical justu.


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> So you believe that she'll battle through any severe injuries she may sustain? If Naruto smashes in her wind pipe, I will grant you that her natural resilience could allow her to fight through it. _However_, how effective in combat would she be? I'm thinking of Kushina; even though she survived something that would kill a "normal" person, she could barley stand after. No amount of resilience can fix a broken leg, for example. Even if Tsunade wills through her injuries, her body will still suffer the physical trauma.....and she can't afford much if she wants to hit Sage Naruto through his danger sensing.



For some time- I'm not saying I expect her to do it indefinitely.

Rusty and already out of breath Tsunade with her leg muscles severed had her breathing cut off by Kabuto yet still _Shunshin'd_ behind him and smacked him in the time it took him to blink, and with further abrasions, slashes, and stab wounds she decked Orochimaru before he could get out of the way; so I think in-shape she could deal with it effectively enough for a while.



> True, but blocking all day will get her nowhere. Taking away Tsunade's ability to dodge and counter punch is a huge advantage for Naruto, imo. Remember, he's nearly as strong as her by showings (not counting her Chakra enhanced striking power). If she guards, she's probably going to get sent flying.



The thing is, though, that if _Ranshinshō_ is applied while parrying it isn't pertinent whether Tsunade goes flying or not, because Naruto will be immobilized either way, meaning the match would still be hers for the taking.

But I would consider Tsunade to be a whole lot harder to send flying than cool-down Deva, with her being vastly superior to him in physical strength _and_ having that Chakra-to-the-feet method to further assist her in standing her ground. I doubt she'll go hurtling off somewhere as easily or as far as he did.



> "Being the aggressor" in her skirmish with preskip Naruto would've resulted in a dead Naruto. The gap in general level & combat ability was massive. If I was playfighting with a child, I wouldn't attack _them._



I don't see how it would have resulted in that at all.

Being the aggressor doesn't mean you _have_ to hit your target as hard as you can; it's not like she _had_ to make the finger flick any stronger than she did already if she were the one to make the first assault as opposed to waiting to react to Naruto's.



> As for her medical rules....they seemed to be geared more towards team play. The objective was to be extremely defensive in order to survive IIRC, as the death of the medic was game over for the team.



They're of vital importance to team play but not necessarily geared towards it.

It is _self_-defense seen practiced in _one-on-one_ scenarios. Additonally, it's only game over for the team if it's game over for the medics themselves, and I'm pretty sure the medic wouldn't want their own game over even if they were going solo.



> The solution to this argument is based on the unknown, and for knowledge stipulations here, we tend to go with absolutes (or what is most likely).



True; it was just food for thought.



> Naruto used the Frog Kata's very early in the match against Pain anyway, so it's also uncertain as to whether or not the Hyuga were even observing yet.



At the very least there was that one beside Sakura that had been observing since Naruto spotted Deva, even before the other paths were summoned back.



> I'm now realizing that Ranshinsho, an A-rank Ninjustu, should be restricted in a Taijutsu match.



_Ranshinshō_ is classified as a medical Ninjutsu, which the OP states Tsunade can still use. Plus I think the fact that Naruto gets to use an actual super mode transformation keeps it fair enough.



> But, for the sake of arguing, can Tsunade actually use Ransinsho from the back of her hand, and would it work if applied to an area like Naruto's fist?



The back of her hand is what touched Kabuto, so that's one yes that is already canon; and Naruto's fist still hosts nerves connected to his greater neural system (as does practically any part of his body), so that's another yes saying it would work as those nerves are still an open door for _Ranshinshō_ to reach everything else.


----------



## TheGreen1 (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Tsuande doesn't stand much of a chance. Naruto is fast and reflexive enough to dodge her attacks just like he did to the Sandaime then he can counter attack her which even if she dodges(be it a counter attack or normal attack) she will still get hit and she doesn't know about Frog Kumite either. Yeah she may last for a little bit but Naruto is going to be rag dolling her more or less the entire time.



Hell, the only ones who could take him in a straight Taijutsu battle would be Sage Hashirama and Hachimon Gai. Nobody else has the reflexes/strength/durability to take him on, not even the 3rd Raikage.


----------



## The World (Mar 8, 2014)

lol 

>strength and durability

which 3rd Raikage eclipses Naruto in

he only won due to having knowledge on his opponent, 3rd Raikage being a mindless zombie and having him damage himself

otherwise Naruto couldn't even dent him


----------



## Rocky (Mar 8, 2014)

FlamingRain,

I more or less agree with the points you're making, but your decision on the match seems to be heavily based on Rashinsho. Now, the OP states that she can use medical Ninjutsu to _heal_ herself (he wanted to specify that she couldn't use Byakugo or Genesis Rebirth). That's different than using it for offensive purposes, and it would defeat the purpose of a "Taijutsu only" thread.

Basically, I will concede to you here should she be allowed Rashinsho. Administering the technique off a "fake" block is a clever tactic the Sannin should be capable of conjuring up, and it circumvents her biggest issue in this battle (which was actually connecting with Naruto through his sensing). Without knowledge, it seems much more plausible than Naruto beating her down. After reviewing the many resiliency feats different posters have brought to my attention, my views have swayed.

However, what is your opinion on the fight without Rashinsho? She would then have to outmaneuver him, meaning that she'll take more of a beating. It increases her chance of being stunned, which is an opening Naruto could use to jump on her and try and knock her out. I'll say it again; Naruto's own strength should not be underestimated, especially with his feats being as good as they are.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I can't show a scan of her actively healing, but i can give you my reasoning for why i think it's more plausible she healed from it rather than just tanked it.  Tsunade has never been stated or implied to have super durability, madara even saw her get cut up by the lightspeed travel while ei was just scuffed.  We know that RnY Ei is way more durable than base Ei, and RnY Ei still gets damaged by chidori.
> 
> I find it less likely that YM is so weak that despite it sending tsunade through boulders as an after-effect of its concussive force, that she'd sustain no damage from it, and given the speed at which she's healed from *superficial damage * she'd have more than enough time to heal from YM while the smoke clears.  Madara's YM that he used on gaara and oonoki's combined defense almost got through it, so a miniture version of that technique should be very powerful when not used on something super durable.



I wasn't trying to sound like scans or gtfo, I was just wondering if you caught something I didn't.

I don't disagree with your reasoning.  I really don't know whether she took damage or not, or to what degree, or how strong the magatama are.  Madara's big ones almost got through the double defence, but Itachi's ones against Kabuto were akin to exploding tags.  Though he also used them on the core, implying they're stronger than that.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You're kidding, right?
> 
> Let's just say that "trying the same thing over and over again" wouldn't have worked against Pain's Chakra absorption, revival, and gravity manipulation. I think you basically forgot about Sage Naruto's one major fight, because in that bout he figured out solutions to problems much more complicated then "where should I aim to hit a person that can take a punch.' Like jesus, any random girl knows that if she's assaulted by a man to claw at his eyes, knee him in the nuts, etc. Targeting a vulnerable spot is not by any stretch of the imagination "out of character" for an elite super Sage ninja.
> 
> ...



Naruto typically tries taijutsu.  Then he tries rasegan.  Then he starts to make some clones.  Then he starts to perform some feints, and some henge, and gradually increases the intelligence of his tactics until he hits a winning thresh hold and kills the enemy.  In order to get there, he usually takes some hits, and gets beat up, and makes mistakes.  But he survives though because he's fairly durable and has high stamina, and for some reason no one ever just hits him in the throat with a kunai to one shot him, or stabs a kunai deep into his brain and leaves it there, negating the kyuubi's ability to restore him.  That's the pattern he followed in the Pain fight, more or less.

Other times he doesn't, and starts off smart like against the Sandaime.  Other times he forgets what he just said 2 seconds ago, and tries to rasengan a guy who he just stated can absorb chakra.  There is no, "Of course Naruto will figure out the obvious," for me, because there are so many times in the manga where what's obvious to everyone escapes him that I don't know when to give him credit.  I usually assume that if the fight drags on for enough time, he'll have gotten it right.  I cited part I feats because overall, while Naruto's technical skill has increased, his personality and approach to battle hasn't.  He's still an idiot with strokes of genius that come and go whenever, he's just better.


----------

