# Base Itachi vs Zabuza and Haku



## Dr. White (Jul 15, 2014)

Location: Hidden Mist Village
Distance: 10M
Knowledge: None
Mindset: Ic
restrictions: Itachi cannot use MS.
Notes: Itachi is allowed his Anbu sword to use during the fight.

If it's a stomp add Chojuro.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2014)

Itachi can paralyze them with finger genjutsu, kill them with exploding clones, and evaporate and push away mist with a large fire release. He'd annihilate them.

Consider that Kakashi with an unmastered Sharingan was able to counter and take down Zabuza in the mist, and Kakashi was _significantly_ weaker in speed (4) and taijutsu (4) at the time.​


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## Cognitios (Jul 15, 2014)

It's a stomp in both scenarios.
Base Itachi stomps in both scenarios.
Both Zabuza and Choujuro are part 1 out of shape kakashi level
Haku is part 1 kn0 naruto level.
Base Itachi wins this without much difficulty, a few shuriken and some decent katons + genjutsu should end this nicely.


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## trance (Jul 15, 2014)

Without knowledge about Sasuke, Haku charged him and ended up on a slight losing end, being kicked away. Against a _vastly_ stronger and more skilled fighter, he's going to get his head cut off or put in a genjutsu. With no knowledge about Itachi's Sharingan, Zabuza won't think to put up his mist and will try to either bum rush Itachi and get totally outclassed or use Suiton and get the same treatment Kakashi gave him but 10 times worse. 

Itachi wins with extreme ease.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 15, 2014)

Zabuza's sword cuts through Susanoo like butter, it cannot be beat!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3Dd2tgtPjQ&feature=kp[/youtube]


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## Dr. White (Jul 15, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Zabuza's sword cuts through Susanoo like butter, it cannot be beat!
> 
> [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3Dd2tgtPjQ&feature=kp[/youtube]



Me and my friends would have killed each other with toys like this


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 15, 2014)

I'm not sure why the cosplay Sasuke thought he won, he cut through one and took forever to set up that shooter thing, while Zabuza cut through them in an instant and it cut through 3


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## Nikushimi (Jul 15, 2014)

No knowledge? Like, at all?

Itachi blitzes Zabuza, Haku, and Chojuro and slits their throats before they know what happened.

If Itachi's feeling especially cruel, he can Genjutsu Zabuza and make him kill the other two. And then release him from the Genjutsu so he can see what he did before casually shanking him, and whispering in his ear "This is my swamp" as the life fades from his eyes.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 15, 2014)

Itachi can't even cut through rice paper, he's got nothing on Zabuza who has a feat of doing so


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## Dr. White (Jul 15, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'm not sure why the cosplay Sasuke thought he won, he cut through one and took forever to set up that shooter thing, while Zabuza cut through them in an instant and it cut through 3



Lol he did a flip into the most uncalucated and non smooth projectile set up I've ever seen. Then proceeded to barely cut through one. He didn't even have a cool quote 

That commercial is hilarious.


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## Ersa (Jul 15, 2014)

Hussain legitimately believes Zabuza can solo Itachi


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## Bonly (Jul 15, 2014)

Zabuza and Haku doesn't stand a chance against Itachi. Give them full knowledge, a large distance and throw in Tayuya and then they can take down Itachi


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## Cognitios (Jul 15, 2014)

Bonly, you forgot Maki.


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## trance (Jul 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Hussain legitimately believes Zabuza can solo Itachi



No opinion could be more wrong.


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## Cognitios (Jul 15, 2014)

> No opinion could be more wrong.


He also believes Tayuya can solo Itachi.


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## trance (Jul 15, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> He also believes Tayuya can solo Itachi.



I bet he believes the Ramen Guy can solo Itachi too.


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## Cognitios (Jul 15, 2014)

Prime Itachi > Healthy Itachi > Edo Itachi > Part 1 Sick itachi > Part 2 Sick Itachi > Blind Itachi = Ramen Guy >>>>>>>>>>> Kaguya
Ramen Guy has his chances


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2014)

^ lol, I have a lot of enemies I suppose. 

anyway, Zabuza's mist jutsu makes itachi's sharingan completely useless as stared and showing in the manga.
Then the silent killing thing will deal with itachi. 

it's funny though that there is no argument to what itachi can do against the mist jutsu.


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## Ersa (Jul 15, 2014)

He can blow it away with a Katon.

Use clones to escape.

Slash it with his cock.

Pick one.

Now what can Tsunade do against the mist? Onoki? Gai? Hiruzen? You think the mist will defeat all of them? A jutsu which hasn't amounted to jackshit since the Wave Arc.


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## Ghost (Jul 15, 2014)

Itachi stomps.


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## Ghost (Jul 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> it's funny though that there is no argument to what itachi can do against the mist jutsu.



Its funny how Kakashi managed to fight back in the mist and Itachi with vastly superior senses and physical stats seems to be unable. 

Doesn't even matter when Itachi can blitz Zabuza before he can even put up the mist.


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Its funny how Kakashi managed to fight back in the mist and Itachi with vastly superior senses and physical stats seems to be unable.
> 
> Doesn't even matter when Itachi can blitz Zabuza before he can even put up the mist.



Except Kakashi used his dogs to smell the blood. 
I don't think itachi's smell sensing is better than the dogs, nor do I remember any where
stated that itachi has superior senses.  

- blitze him from 100m? 
Please, provide those itachi's amazing speed feats, because in all honestly I don't remember any.


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## Ghost (Jul 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Except Kakashi used his dogs to smell the blood.
> I don't think itachi's smell sensing is better than the dogs,


Kakashi used his summons to get the advantage in the mist and to pin Zabuza down. He managed to fight back before but Zabuza obviously had the advantage.



> nor do I remember any where
> stated that itachi has superior senses.


Read the fucking manga and you see Itachi's much superior feats to Wave Arc Kakashi.


> - blitze him from 100m?
> Please, provide those itachi's amazing speed feats, because in all honestly I don't remember any.


Itachi is totally unable to close the distance first then blitz.


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Kakashi used his summons to get the advantage in the mist and to pin Zabuza down. He managed to fight back before but Zabuza obviously had the advantage.
> 
> 
> Read the fucking manga and you see Itachi's much superior feats to Wave Arc Kakashi.
> ...



- The first time they fought in the mist Kakashi was fooled by a clone and got trapped. 
Naruto and Sasuke saved him, he barely did anything in that encounter. 

- Except itachi being stronger than Kakashi does not mean he has a better smell sensing than
kakashi. Itachi has absolutely no feats whatsoever, it was not even implied that he has good smell
sensing!

- So, you basically did not bring any speed feats for itachi to cut those 100m? 
Well, ok.


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## Dominus (Jul 15, 2014)

The distance is 10m, not 100m.


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## Ghost (Jul 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - The first time they fought in the mist Kakashi was fooled by a clone and got trapped.
> Naruto and Sasuke saved him, he barely did anything in that encounter.


What does this have to do with anything?



> - Except itachi being stronger than Kakashi does not mean he has a better smell sensing than
> kakashi. Itachi has absolutely no feats whatsoever, it was not even implied that he has good smell
> sensing


I was not talking about Itachi having a good sense of smell... dear lord..

*Itachi is tiers above Kakashi and Zabuza in every stat. Zabuza is physically unable to ambush Itachi even with the mist up especially when even Kakashi managed to counter Zabuza's attempts.
*


> - So, you basically did not bring any speed feats for itachi to cut those 100m?
> Well, ok.



Are you seriously this challenged? Normal human is able to run 100m in less than 10 seconds. How long do you think it takes for Itachi to do it?

Also: 



Authoritah said:


> The distance is 10m, not 100m.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 15, 2014)

Itachi low difs. Actually he probably neg difs.


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## Bloo (Jul 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Except Kakashi used his dogs to smell the blood.


Itachi was able to fully counter Kabuto's attack with the White Extreme Attack. That move is infinitely more powerful than Zabuza's mist and yet Itachi was able to appropriately counter an attack by a Sage. Saying he couldn't predict movement in the mist, assuming Zabuza has the chance to use it, is underestimating Itachi.


> I don't think itachi's smell sensing is better than the dogs, nor do I remember any where
> stated that itachi has superior senses.


See the above example. Itachi has shown a remarkable ability to sense, like Karin, even though he's not a sensor. But he has the feats to be one.


> - blitze him from 100m?
> Please, provide those itachi's amazing speed feats, because in all honestly I don't remember any.


The distance is 10m.


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## RedChidori (Jul 15, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi can paralyze them with finger genjutsu, kill them with exploding clones, and evaporate and push away mist with a large fire release. He'd annihilate them.
> 
> Consider that Kakashi with an unmastered Sharingan was able to counter and take down Zabuza in the mist, and Kakashi was _significantly_ weaker in speed (4) and taijutsu (4) at the time.​



Itachi soloes per usual .


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## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> He can blow it away with a Katon.


Never been shown to be dissipated by katons or heat. If you have a scan that would greatly help out.



> Use clones to escape.


Zabuza hears him moving and even hears his clones.


> Slash it with his cock.


So you concede that your argument is pathetic?





> Pick one.


Make an actual argument.





> Now what can Tsunade do against the mist? Onoki? Gai? Hiruzen? You think the mist will defeat all of them? A jutsu which hasn't amounted to jackshit since the Wave Arc.


Amounted to Jack shit? Madara and Obito was blinded by it, Kakashi had to allow himself to be hit to stand a chance at finding Zabuza, Mei's mist is acidic.

The mist doesn't defeat no one, he just supports the victory.

Itachi can't beat Zabuza, he will have no way of knowing where he is at, the mist is made of chakra so he can't see through it. And Itachi has no superb hearing feats to suggest he would be able to put up somewhat of a defense. Not to mention Zabuza can just launch ninjutsu from a distance to attack Itachi.


As for Haku, he stomps Itachi. With his Ice release Itachi is going to get lolstomped. He can't break the Ice, he might be able to intercept Haku but even then Haku would just impale him with Ice like he did the shinobi that killed his parents.

Itachi has no solid way to win against either opponent.

Zabuza 10/10
Haku 6/10


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## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Itachi was able to fully counter Kabuto's attack with the White Extreme Attack. That move is infinitely more powerful than Zabuza's mist and yet Itachi was able to appropriately counter an attack by a Sage. Saying he couldn't predict movement in the mist, assuming Zabuza has the chance to use it, is underestimating Itachi.
> 
> See the above example. Itachi has shown a remarkable ability to sense, like Karin, even though he's not a sensor. But he has the feats to be one.
> 
> The distance is 10m.



And Itachi specifically stated why he was able to counter Kabuto. Because he knew he would specifically target Sasuke...If he would've targeted ITachi it would've been game over.

Itachi has no sensing feats other than through his sharingan.


Finger jutsu was being overpowered by Naruto for a second, I highly doubt a jounin thats on the level of Zabuza would fall to it. Especially with no knowledge. Itachi will try to feel the opponents out and figure out their attacks to counter...but by then the mist will be up.


Itachi uses finger jutsu, Haku throws an ice mirror up...GG.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Kakashi used his summons to get the advantage in the mist and to pin Zabuza down. He managed to fight back before but Zabuza obviously had the advantage.


And without Kakashi's blood coating the blade, Zabuza would've remained hidden...READ THE FUCKING MANGA.





> Read the fucking manga and you see Itachi's much superior feats to Wave Arc Kakashi.


READ THE GODDAMN MANGA. May have superior feats but his abilities and potential don't stack well against an opponent as Zabuza and Haku.

Itachi is totally unable to close the distance first then blitz.[/QUOTE]
And Haku is totally unable to counter. Haku has been trained by Zabuza and has shown proficiency in the silent killing technique.

Itachi charges, gets a senbon in the leg...goes into a coma GG.


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## Ersa (Jul 15, 2014)

I concede, Itachi loses to Haku.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

What is even your argument?

Seriously you Itachi fans are so fucking delusional that you think you don't have to put up an actual argument. Fucking pathetic really, but I understand why you do it, because Itachi has no way to counter Zabuza and Haku genjutsu which is a null factor since Itachi has no knowledge and knows that he must rely on it in the first second of the fight in hopes to even win.


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## Ersa (Jul 15, 2014)

Are you talking to me?

Cause I agree considering the level of opponents Zabuza and Haku have faced that they would handily trounce Itachi and anyone in his tier.


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## Bloo (Jul 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And Itachi specifically stated why he was able to counter Kabuto. Because he knew he would specifically target Sasuke...If he would've targeted ITachi it would've been game over.


Do you realize the huge hole in your logic? If it had been one vs. one, then Itachi could have easily guarded himself. You proved absolutely nothing with your post. I know you have a hatred towards Itachi (i.e., your location, "Fuck Itachi"), but please avoid doing so when it evades common logic.



> Itachi has no sensing feats other than through his sharingan.


He has demonstrated basic feats of sensing. Not in battle scenarios, but he has demonstrated them. But, yes, you're right here.



> Finger jutsu was being overpowered by Naruto for a second, I highly doubt a jounin thats on the level of Zabuza would fall to it. Especially with no knowledge. Itachi will try to feel the opponents out and figure out their attacks to counter...but by then the mist will be up.


The Jonin that beat Zabuza with knowledge on Mangekyou Sharingan and a user of the Sharingan fell for Tsukuyomi. Claiming that Zabuza, someone who pissed his pants upon seeing the Sharingan for the first time simply wouldn't fall for finger genjutsu because of his ranking is a pathetic argument and completely baseless. Especially considering he has absolutely no knowledge in this scenario. Try again.



> Itachi uses finger jutsu, Haku throws an ice mirror up...GG.


Then Haku attacks Itachi over and over... In a genjutsu and Itachi then proceeds to blitz an unaware Haku and decapitates him. Haku is not getting out of genjutsu, especially considering he has a 1 in genjutsu. 

Haku is practically fodder in a fight with Itachi. His 1's in Taijutsu and Genjutsu are going to drastically make him an easy target for Itachi to pick off. Itachi is also a tier above Haku in speed. Haku is a non-factor. Anyone saying otherwise is delusional.



IchLiebe said:


> What is even your argument?
> 
> Seriously you Itachi fans are so fucking delusional that you think you don't have to put up an actual argument. Fucking pathetic really, but I understand why you do it, *because Itachi has no way to counter Zabuza and Haku genjutsu which is a null factor since Itachi has no knowledge* and knows that he must rely on it in the first second of the fight in hopes to even win.


Do you forget that Haku and Zabuza have no knowledge as well? 13 year old base Itachi has been shown to one-panel Orochimaru with knowledge and you expect a Genin level opponent, along with a Jonin level opponent, to take out a Kage level character? You call us delusional, but honestly all your arguments are entirely baseless and ridden with bias.

Zabuza and Haku fall prey to genjutsu due to having no knowledge of genjutsu and sharingan in this battle scenario. Itachi always wips out genjutsu from the beginning of the battle and these two would innocently look into his eyes and it would be over. There shouldn't need to be this much debate here.

I hope you realize that Itachi is one of the most dangerous opponents to fight without knowledge. Haku and Zabuza... Not so much.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> What is even your argument?
> 
> Seriously you Itachi fans are so fucking delusional that you think you don't have to put up an actual argument. Fucking pathetic really, but I understand why you do it, because Itachi has no way to counter Zabuza and Haku genjutsu which is a null factor since Itachi has no knowledge and knows that he must rely on it in the first second of the fight in hopes to even win.



Bro its not about it being itachi its his opponent 


Would you feel the need to explain why war arc kakashi beats zabuza and haku after he already did so in canon?



Itachi destroys zabuza and haku, he fought close to being blind almost the damn entire second season what is mist suppose to do? he already preempted kabuto's techniques as well.


He is tiers faster then zabuza, he also has summons to help him track zabuza in the mist and 2 tomoe sharingon sasuke was tracking haku 


i mean like seriously do we really need to scientifically explain why itachi beats zabuza and haku?


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Jul 15, 2014)

Is this the same Itachi that casually one shotted Orochimaru with genjutsu without even looking at him?
...Oh no it's not, Itachi was just a child back then. He's way stronger now. I wonder who would win this fight.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Do you realize the huge hole in your logic? If it had been one vs. one, then Itachi could have easily guarded himself. You proved absolutely nothing with your post. I know you have a hatred towards Itachi (i.e., your location, "Fuck Itachi"), but please avoid doing so when it evades common logic.


But he can't in this situation because the only defensive jutsu he has is Susanoo. i have hatred towards a character that is highly over rated just because he is good in 1 area  and has 1 powerful jutsu....yea.





> He has demonstrated basic feats of sensing. Not in battle scenarios, but he has demonstrated them. But, yes, you're right here.


When? and that doesn't suggest that he will be able to sense Zabuza. The mist is chakra as well.





> The Jonin that beat Zabuza with knowledge on Mangekyou Sharingan and a user of the Sharingan fell for Tsukuyomi. Claiming that Zabuza, someone who pissed his pants upon seeing the Sharingan for the first time simply wouldn't fall for finger genjutsu because of his ranking is a pathetic argument and completely baseless. Especially considering he has absolutely no knowledge in this scenario. Try again.


And Kakashi thought he would be able to counter Tsukuyomi. He thought he had a viable counter but was wrong...Zabuza has fought people with sharingan though, you can't discredit that from him, and knows that he is vulnerable to genjutsu.

IC without knowledge Itachi will wait for Zabuza to make the first move and then counter, but without knowledge and IC Zabuza will most likely throw up the mist and Haku will attack immediately. If Itachi sits there and uses finger genjutsu then he is put into a coma by Haku's senbon.



> Then Haku attacks Itachi over and over... In a genjutsu and Itachi then proceeds to blitz an unaware Haku and decapitates him. Haku is not getting out of genjutsu, especially considering he has a 1 in genjutsu.


I never said he would by himself, but catching him in a genjutsu is a whole other thing. Itachi can't put both of them under a genjutsu at once, he's never shown that capability.





> Haku is practically fodder in a fight with Itachi. His 1's in Taijutsu and Genjutsu are going to drastically make him an easy target for Itachi to pick off. Itachi is also a tier above Haku in speed. Haku is a non-factor. Anyone saying otherwise is delusional.


And Haku is very versatile, can weave handseals with one hand while throwing senbon with the other. Haku is a factor and by you saying he is a non-factor doesn't make it so. Even if he is killed within the first 5-20 seconds he will still factor in. More or less Itachi has to kill Zabuza before he puts up the mist...and Haku is technically one of Zabuza's tools that will do anything for Zabuza in death and in life. Don't think he will just stand there will Itachi and Zabuza fight.





> Do you forget that Haku and Zabuza have no knowledge as well? 13 year old base Itachi has been shown to one-panel Orochimaru with knowledge and you expect a Genin level opponent, along with a Jonin level opponent, to take out a Kage level character? You call us delusional, but honestly all your arguments are entirely baseless and ridden with bias.


Kage level? By no means is Base Itachi kage level. Without knowledge Itachi won't know who to target to stop the mist before it is cast and has no idea what their arsenal is and vice versa...and imo that gives the advantage to Zabuza and Haku, especially given what we both are going off of.

1. If Itachi catches either one in finger genjutsu, one can force Itachi back and break out the other or just continue fighting alone.

2. If the mist goes up...Itachi is fucked, he has NO WAY OF SENSING. and that is a prerequisite to stop Zabuza in the mist. Kakashi had to be cut on purpose just to have a chance. Also Zabuza has knowledge on Sharingan so he will pull the heaviest mist he can immediately.



> Zabuza and Haku fall prey to genjutsu due to having no knowledge of genjutsu and sharingan in this battle scenario. Itachi always wips out genjutsu from the beginning of the battle and these two would innocently look into his eyes and it would be over. There shouldn't need to be this much debate here.


Yet against opponents he was just faced with instead of having prior knowledge on them(Sasuke, Deidara) he opts to go in CQC and lets the opponent attack first. Vs Naruto and Bee when he was on auto pilot- he didn't use genjutsu until the middle of the fight, Kabuto, very end of the fight. Kurenai- countered her genjutsu, Kakashi- didn't even attempt regular genjutsu.

No because they still have their knowledge on the Sharingan...maybe not Itachi, but the sharingan they do. So Zabuza would know from his previous battles not to look into a sharingan eye. And even so that doesn't mean GG, because it takes just a little bit of chakra to break someone out of genjutsu. Itachi IC, tries to analyze his opponent then distracts them to attack. He much more likely to start off the battle by jumping into the air, launching a katon, or running away.


> I hope you realize that Itachi is one of the most dangerous opponents to fight without knowledge. Haku and Zabuza... Not so much.


I hope you realize that Zabuza is hard a fuck to fight with full knowledge, no sensing jutsu, and no defensive jutsu...much less without knowledge and giving him his puppet that can end the fight with a well placed senbon from a marginally large distance away.


Itachi has no sensing =Can't locate Zabuza or Haku without seeing or hearing them...but they are proficient in the "silent" killing tech of the mist, Zabuza being the best there ever was, and the mist is to thick to see anything.

Zabuza and Haku- Only susceptible to genjutsu, which can't put a character down for good, and not sure how they would be targeted after 3 seconds into the match. So Itachi must genjutsu 2 people at the same time...has he shown that feat?


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## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Bro its not about it being itachi its his opponent


Yes you are right, names and characters mean jack shit...this is about the abilities and capabilities of 2 people vs 1 person. Of which the 2 can counter genjutsu(albeit together) and the 1 can't counter One of their main techs.





> Would you feel the need to explain why war arc kakashi beats zabuza and haku after he already did so in canon?


Smell "sensing". And Kakashi also shown to be able to read air currents to tell where people are before he got the sharingan.





> Itachi destroys zabuza and haku, he fought close to being blind almost the damn entire second season what is mist suppose to do? he already preempted kabuto's techniques as well.


So he is supposed to sit in the mist and pre empt attacks? No that won't work out because he doesn't have a "defensive" jutsu like he did vs Kabuto(Susanoo), therefore he sitting there with a sword, next thing he knows a water dragon comes out of nowhere and plows over him, Haku appears above him and kills him with ice needles.





> He is tiers faster then zabuza, he also has summons to help him track zabuza in the mist and 2 tomoe sharingon sasuke was tracking haku


And it doesn't matter about being faster it matters about his reactions and Zabuza will always have the element of surprise.  Yes but what would Itachi do to Haku. He will have knowledge on sharingan and the Sasuke fight. Also Haku can place one mirror wherever he wants, as shown in the war arc when he took out the aerial combatants. Tousand needles would force Itachi to jmp up to evade them thus giving Zabuza an opening. And Itachi can't put Haku down when he uses the mirrors they must be busted and Itachi don't have that power.


> i mean like seriously do we really need to scientifically explain why itachi beats zabuza and haku?



Scientifically the battle goes to Zabuza and haku, they are more deadly and more suited to fight with each other against a lone opponent.

If


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## Kai (Jul 15, 2014)

Itachi dismantles both of them with low difficulty.

Even with the mist in place, Zabuza silently killing Itachi is out of the question, given Itachi's reflexes and ability to feel danger even without his vision. As soon as either Zabuza or Haku emerge from the mist, Itachi stops them with finger genjutsu and slashes their hands off. He can also possibly 'layer' it with Sharingan genjutsu afterwards making it more hopeless for a counter.

Nothing Zabuza nor Haku has displayed can actually blindside Itachi, which is a serious blow to their assassination based offense.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 15, 2014)

Base Itachi defeats them with little difficulty.
Adding Chojuro makes no difference...


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## OG Appachai (Jul 15, 2014)

give zabuza and company some knowledge and id give it to them


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2014)

Zabuza>Base Kakashi>Base Itachi.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yes you are right, names and characters mean jack shit...this is about the abilities and capabilities of 2 people vs 1 person. Of which the 2 can counter genjutsu(albeit together) and the 1 can't counter One of their main techs.Smell "sensing". And Kakashi also shown to be able to read air currents to tell where people are before he got the sharingan.So he is supposed to sit in the mist and pre empt attacks? No that won't work out because he doesn't have a "defensive" jutsu like he did vs Kabuto(Susanoo), therefore he sitting there with a sword, next thing he knows a water dragon comes out of nowhere and plows over him, Haku appears above him and kills him with ice needles.And it doesn't matter about being faster it matters about his reactions and Zabuza will always have the element of surprise.  Yes but what would Itachi do to Haku. He will have knowledge on sharingan and the Sasuke fight. Also Haku can place one mirror wherever he wants, as shown in the war arc when he took out the aerial combatants. Tousand needles would force Itachi to jmp up to evade them thus giving Zabuza an opening. And Itachi can't put Haku down when he uses the mirrors they must be busted and Itachi don't have that power.



the water dragon gets comfortably dodged.

the man mentally reacted to lightning his reaction skill shouldn't be in question he has plenty of feats to suggest he's very reactive.

you do realize kn0 pre chunnin exam arc naruto shattered haku mirrors right? wtf do you think itachi will do when he was able to spar with kcm naruto and bee 

not only that but sasuke comfortably was pressuring haku with his 2 tomoe sharingon, one of itachi clones would be way to much for haku, he literally rapes him like the little girl he always posses to be.

Zabuza having the element of surprise isn't doing much to someone who casually fights without good sight and has the reactions that itachi consistently displayed threw out the manga, the cherry on the cake is his speed it just literally means zabuza isn't doing shyt but getting blitz and trolled, not to mention theres a 50/50 chance he runs into a exploding water bushin by mistake and from there on out its gg.

this is also assuming zabuza and haku are not in genjutsu at the start of the fight btw, you have not posted one viable reason why that wouldn't happen especially in cannon zabuza looked into kakashi eyes multiple times.


IchLiebe said:


> Scientifically the battle goes to Zabuza and haku, they are more deadly and more suited to fight with each other against a lone opponent.



scientifically they have close to no chance to beat itachi, the mist simply isn't enough


----------



## Bloo (Jul 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> But he can't in this situation because the only defensive jutsu he has is Susanoo. i have hatred towards a character that is highly over rated just because he is good in 1 area  and has 1 powerful jutsu....yea.


Unlike you, I'm aware of the conditions and I know that he can't use Susano'o. I was simply pointing out a fact. Is that a problem?


> When? and that doesn't suggest that he will be able to sense Zabuza. The mist is chakra as well.


I said you were right with that post. Why are you trying to counterargue me?



> And Kakashi thought he would be able to counter Tsukuyomi. He thought he had a viable counter but was wrong...*Zabuza has fought people with sharingan though, you can't discredit that from him, and knows that he is vulnerable to genjutsu.*


IchLiebe, he has NO knowledge here. And really? Zabuza has experience fighting sharingan and it still wasn't enough to make him piss his pants when a non-Uchiha has it? Again, even if what you're saying is true, neither party has knowledge so Zabuza has no knowledge of sharingan in this situation. Add to it, that Itachi is the only person who has demonstrated finger genjutsu, then how does it make logical sense from someone with very little sharingan knowledge like Zabuza to know about Itachi's finger genjutsu?



> IC without knowledge Itachi will wait for Zabuza to make the first move and then counter,


Almost every fight Itachi has been in, he starts off with genjutsu. 


> but without knowledge and IC Zabuza will most likely throw up the mist


Zabuza only did that *with* knowledge of how the sharingan terrifies him. This is one of the most illogical arguments I've seen on here.


> and Haku will attack immediately.


And do what? Annoy Itachi? As someone else has posted, Itachi was able to fight in Part II with near blindness, and was capable of hitting targets with kunai using perfect accuracy with his eyes closed. Even with mist, how would that bother Itachi?



> If Itachi sits there and uses finger genjutsu then he is put into a coma by Haku's senbon.


This comment makes well beyond no sense. If Itachi successfully uses finger genjutsu on Haku, how is Haku going to put Itachi into a coma with senbon? And, Haku isn't putting a Kage level opponent into a coma with a senbon. 



> I never said he would by himself, but catching him in a genjutsu is a whole other thing. Itachi can't put both of them under a genjutsu at once, he's never shown that capability.


THIS 



> And Haku is very versatile, can weave handseals with one hand while throwing senbon with the other.


What the hell is that going to accomplish? By that point, he's in a genjutsu.



> Haku is a factor and by you saying he is a non-factor doesn't make it so. Even if he is killed within the first 5-20 seconds he will still factor in.


Aren't you one of those people that actually believes that Kisame would have been a non-factor against Jiraiya with Itachi's aid? If so, this is a double standard on your part. If not, I apologize and I'll even revoke my statement and rephrase. Haku is such a small factor in this situation that you may as well round it down to being non-existant.



> More or less Itachi has to kill Zabuza before he puts up the mist...


IC Zabuza doesn't put up mist automatically. He didn't do that at all in his first fight with Kakashi. Why are you acting as if it's IC for him to do so right at the start of the battle? He only did it that one time because he _needed_ Kakashi's sharingan to be a weaker tool for Kakashi. And he only knew he needed to do that because he had knowledge from a prior fight that he does not have here.



> and Haku is technically one of Zabuza's tools that will do anything for Zabuza in death and in life. Don't think he will just stand there will Itachi and Zabuza fight.


Again, Haku isn't powerful enough to do much of anything here.



> Kage level? By no means is Base Itachi kage level.


Fine. He's a chuunin capable enough to take out Kage level opponents in one panel. Are you happy now?



> Without knowledge Itachi won't know who to target to stop the mist before it is cast and has no idea what their arsenal is and vice versa...and imo that gives the advantage to Zabuza and Haku, especially given what we both are going off of.


I think you're the first person to actually believe mist jutsu is a jutsu that automatically ends the fight. Again, it's not happening at the beginning of the fight, and even if it were, what is it going to accomplish? Itachi has easily countered attacks with no line-of-sight.
THIS 



> 1. If Itachi catches either one in finger genjutsu, one can force Itachi back and break out the other


It took a perfect Jinchuuruki a decent amount of time to even realize it was under genjutsu. And the one time finger genjutsu was used in a fight, it lasted more than an entire chapter. They're not going to break the other out immediately.



> *or just continue fighting alone.*


Please tell me you don't actually believe either of these two, individually, could actually defeat Itachi. 



> 2. If the mist goes up...Itachi is fucked, he has NO WAY OF SENSING. and that is a prerequisite to stop Zabuza in the mist.


Itachi fought blind for his fight with Sasuke and has trained with his eyes closed. I don't understand why you think that's an instant win for Zabuza.



> Kakashi had to be cut on purpose just to have a chance.


Good for Kakashi. Part 1 Kakashi =/= Itachi. People have different skillsets. And at this point in time, Itachi was a MUCH more skilled shinobi than Kakashi.



> Also *Zabuza has knowledge on Sharingan* so he will pull the heaviest mist he can immediately.


NO HE DOESN'T! Have you read the conditions? The condition for knowledge is NO KNOWLEDGE. Not "in character" or "manga" knowledge. NO knowledge. Zabuza doesn't know anything about sharingan in this situation.



> Yet against opponents he was just faced with instead of having prior knowledge on them(Sasuke, Deidara) he opts to go in CQC and lets the opponent attack first.


What are you talking about? He stood there and put them both in genjutsu. The first half of the Itachi vs. Sasuke battle was pure genjutsu... 



> Vs Naruto and Bee when he was on *auto pilot*


Auto-Pilot Edō Itachi =/= IC Itachi



> Kurenai- countered her genjutsu


Please explain how this doesn't prove me right in my claim that his first move tends to be genjutsu?



> , Kakashi- didn't even attempt regular genjutsu.


He needed to make Kakashi out-cold without drawing attention. Tsukuyomi is the best tool for that. And that wasn't the beginning of a fight.



> No because they still have their knowledge on the Sharingan...maybe not Itachi, but the sharingan they do. So Zabuza would know from his previous battles not to look into a sharingan eye. And even so that doesn't mean GG, because it takes just a little bit of chakra to break someone out of genjutsu. Itachi IC, tries to analyze his opponent then distracts them to attack. He much more likely to start off the battle by jumping into the air, launching a katon, or running away.


It's NO knowledge. Not character knowledge. Please read the OP.



> I hope you realize that Zabuza is hard a fuck to fight with full knowledge, no sensing jutsu, and no defensive jutsu...much less without knowledge and giving him his puppet that can end the fight with a well placed senbon from a marginally large distance away.


Itachi has taken out kage level opponents in one panel with knowledge. Itachi's base feats demolish Zabuza's overall feats.




> Itachi has no sensing =Can't locate Zabuza or Haku without seeing or hearing them...but they are proficient in the "silent" killing tech of the mist, Zabuza being the best there ever was, and the mist is to thick to see anything.


If this is your only argument, then you've lost this debate dramatically. I'm done repeating myself



> Zabuza and Haku- Only susceptible to genjutsu, which can't put a character down for good, and not sure how they would be targeted after 3 seconds into the match. So Itachi must genjutsu 2 people at the same time...has he shown that feat?


Itachi genjutsus one of them. Do you really think Itachi is going to lose to one of these characters individually?


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^ lol, I have a lot of enemies I supt.
> 
> anyway, Zabuza's mist jutsu makes itachi's sharingan completely useless as stared and showing in the manga.
> Then the silent killing thing will deal with itachi.
> ...



Gotta love the guy everyone hates right? 

It's funny how they can troll but you can't.

Anyway. With the mist they could pull off a win.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> the water dragon gets comfortably dodged.


Unless Itachi doesn't see it coming.





> the man mentally reacted to lightning his reaction skill shouldn't be in question he has plenty of feats to suggest he's very reactive.


LoL this shows how delusional you are. He didn't react to lightning he reacted to Kirin, of which Sasuke boasted about for a good 5 minutes while forming it, ample enough time to bring up Susanoo.


> you do realize kn0 pre chunnin exam arc naruto shattered haku mirrors right? wtf do you think itachi will do when he was able to spar with kcm naruto and bee


Doesn't mean their strength is equal. KNO Naruto has a harder hit than Itachi does.



> not only that but sasuke comfortably was pressuring haku with his 2 tomoe sharingon, one of itachi clones would be way to much for haku, he literally rapes him like the little girl he always posses to be.


And even then Itachi will still be forced to focus on Haku primarily which will leave him open to an attack from Zabuza. Sasuke also was faster than Haku, but when the mirrors came up, Sasuke was fucked. The clone is easily dispatched by a senbon. Haku didn't want to kill Sasuke either, and could've easily once the mirrors went up and Sasuke was a bloody mess, the only reason he survived was due to Sakura and Naruto. And when did Sasuke get through the mirrors, oh thats right he got killed(so we thought, Haku was just being merciful)

THIS 

and Naruto tried clones, alot more than Itachi can make

THIS 


> Zabuza having the element of surprise isn't doing much to someone who casually fights without good sight and has the reactions that itachi consistently displayed threw out the manga, the cherry on the cake is his speed it just literally means zabuza isn't doing shyt but getting blitz and trolled, not to mention theres a 50/50 chance he runs into a exploding water bushin by mistake and from there on out its gg.
> 
> this is also assuming zabuza and haku are not in genjutsu at the start of the fight btw, you have not posted one viable reason why that wouldn't happen especially in cannon zabuza looked into kakashi eyes multiple times.
> 
> ...



Ill b back later. To respond to BLoo as well


----------



## Cognitios (Jul 15, 2014)

> It's funny how they can troll but you can't.


He's not trolling, he's being serious.
As for this Itachi hate, it's as bad as the Itachi wank, so don't claim that your above all this Itachi wank if your wanking the hate, it's just as bad if not worse. At least the Itachi wank isn't out of spite.


----------



## Rai (Jul 15, 2014)

Itachi solos.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jul 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Unless Itachi doesn't see it coming.LoL this shows how delusional you are. He didn't react to lightning he reacted to Kirin, of which Sasuke boasted about for a good 5 minutes while forming it, ample enough time to bring up Susanoo.
> Doesn't mean their strength is equal. KNO Naruto has a harder hit than Itachi does.



he didn't see kabuto coming yet he guarded sasuke from him? 

also if kakashi can block these THIS 

then the faster itachi will block and simply put zabuza in a genjutsu

also if he dodged this THIS 



while seeing like this THIS 


plz tell me what would he have trouble dodging while in the mist? can't be haku needles or the slower zabuza lol

sasuke boasted for a few panels yet susano wasn't up yet? we don't see any panels of susano until after the move is launched conclusion? he mentally reacted to kirin and used susano after sasuke fired kirin, 

susano is very visible and sasuke didn't see anything around itachi hence why he though itachi was dead after kirin was fired. It also would make no sense  if the author cited kirin for its speed and then have itachi block it in that manner if we paraphrase.



IchLiebe said:


> And even then Itachi will still be forced to focus on Haku primarily which will leave him open to an attack from Zabuza. Sasuke also was faster than Haku, but when the mirrors came up, Sasuke was fucked. The clone is easily dispatched by a senbon. Haku didn't want to kill Sasuke either, and could've easily once the mirrors went up and Sasuke was a bloody mess, the only reason he survived was due to Sakura and Naruto. And when did Sasuke get through the mirrors, oh thats right he got killed(so we thought, Haku was just being merciful)
> 
> THIS
> 
> ...



itachi's clone >>>>>>>>>>> 100000000 base pre chunin exam naruto clones your losing credibility with statements like that

you posted scans of sasuke before he awaken his sharingon, once he did awaken his sharingon it went more like this THIS 

haku then only hit him by forcing him to guard naruto other then that sasuke was seeing haku and dodging just fine.

that was with a newly awoken 2 tome sharingon ,

 itachi's 3 tomoe season sharingon laughs at haku moving in slow motion, think about it, sasuke countered kn0 with 3 tomoe the same kn0 who caught haku before she jumped back in her mirror  

you can't seriously think haku can do anything to itachi's bushin? despite all evidence telling you otherwise?


I know you don't like the character and thats fine but this just makes you look bad and makes you lose credibility bro, debate in a reasonable thread against itachi not him losing to zabuza and haku


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## Nikushimi (Jul 15, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Zabuza>Base Kakashi>Base Itachi.



Wave Arc Kakashi wasn't even close to Itachi's power; he still had difficulties even using the Sharingan back then.

He got stronger by the time the Chuunin Exams were done, and Itachi _still_ had him on the ropes before ending the fight decisively with Tsukuyomi.

I also don't know what you're smoking when you say Zabuza>Kakashi, because Kakashi beat Zabuza twice despite Haku's interference both times.

Base Itachi > Part I Kakashi > Zabuza


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## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

I'm going to make this simple.

10m is too far for genjutsu. So the mist is getting up. There's no way you can argue this. 

Haku can somewhat tell what happens in the mist at the very least. He can probably see or hear close to Zabuza as he knew everything that happened in Kakashi vs Zabuza's first fight. 

Haku vs Sasuke can't be used as Haku had no intent to kill and is confirmed to hold back the whole time. Itachi has no way to do anything to the mirrors. His best shot is fireball jutsu and Sasuke's was just as strong so no go.

Haku ain't getting found by Itachi. Kakashi has sensing an never knew Haku was there.

Zabuza ain't getting found as common sense.

Zabuza has a huge AoE with waterfall jutsu and chakra WILL outlast Itachi. So will Haku. So they have the ninjutsu advantage.

Itachi clones aren't doing shit as Zabuza is the ONLY person to ever beat KAKSASHI, THE KING OF CLONES, in a clone battle. Note that Itachi lost to Kakashi in clones twice.

Genjutsu is a no go. Not happening at all. 

So how does Itachi win? Katons are null against two suiton users. Itachi's suitons aren't beating their suitons (copying is cancelled depending on distance and thickness of mist.) Genjutsu, his only dangerous thing, is null. Kunai's and shurikens? LOLOLOLOL.

How does Zabuza and Haku win? Blind Itachi(he can't sense as he himself admitted, and he can't hear them as they are silent), stick him in Mirror's he can't escape, (and take note Haku can create those mirrors anywhere, use huge suitons Itachi can't copy, use needles to paralyze or kill Itachi as he doesn't know where they're coming from and I don't see them making any noise, and outlast him. Not to mention Haku watched the fight and came up with closing your eyes and thickening the mist so that plan can still happen here EVEN WITH NO KNOWLEDGE.

And heat or fire has no effect on the mist. Scorch style and blast style users fought it in and nothing happened.

And Haku intercepted WarArc Kakashi and defended against an attack by Lee and Gai at the same time(Gai has tremendous strength, far outpaces Itachi)

mirrors


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## Bonly (Jul 15, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Bonly, you forgot Maki.



Itachi's not an Edo here, no need for her


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I'm going to make this simple.
> 
> 10m is too far for genjutsu. So the mist is getting up. There's no way you can argue this.
> 
> ...



Your whole theory is pretty much debunked by the fact sauce who's inferior to itachi in genjutsu has genjutsu multiple opponents outside of the 10 meter range before the most obvious being deidara.


That and shikamaru's old man already stated itachi can genjutsu multiple opponents outside sensor range.

Haku was pulling punches not speed, you fail to address how haiku isn't soloed by a 3 tomoe sharingon wielding clone, the 3 tomoe allowed sasuke to dodge kn0 the same person who already blitzed haku not to mention vote sauce is significantly slower then itachi.


Itachi has multiple feats of fighting without sight, one feat he struck oro another feat defending against Kabuto.

You also fail to address how kakashi was able to defend in the mist but somehow itachi can't? Lol kakashi defended against multiple attacks well before his dogs came into play.


And ie kakashi bushin feinted itachi and itachi also bushin feinted him, kakashi clones never over powered itachi clones so I don't see your point.


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## Bloo (Jul 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I'm going to make this simple.
> 
> 10m is too far for genjutsu. So the mist is getting up. There's no way you can argue this.


I'm only responding to this comment because it's the most ignorant thing I've read and it's the first comment. I'm not putting myself through with the other comments that I'm sure will end up trumping this one.

Sasuke cast a genjutsu on Deidara from this distance:
mirrors 

In genjutsu:
Itachi >>>>> EMS Sasuke >> MS Sasuke >> Hebi Sasuke


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> 10m is too far for genjutsu. So the mist is getting up. There's no way you can argue this.



Deidara was several times further away when Sasuke caught him.​


IchLiebe said:


> Haku can somewhat tell what happens in the mist at the very least. He can probably see or hear close to Zabuza as he knew everything that happened in Kakashi vs Zabuza's first fight.



Any elite ninja has honed senses and can function with limited vision. Itachi is exceptionally talented at this, however. Moreso than Haku and quite arguably moreso than Zabuza.​


IchLiebe said:


> Haku vs Sasuke can't be used as Haku had no intent to kill and is confirmed to hold back the whole time.



I agree.​


IchLiebe said:


> Zabuza has a huge AoE with waterfall jutsu and chakra WILL outlast Itachi. So will Haku. So they have the ninjutsu advantage.



Consider that Sage Kabuto could make a _much_ larger suiton than Itachi, but that didn't count for much when Itachi was faster than him and flattened him. Zabuza is tiers slower.

The size of the jutsu, weapon, etc. is secondary to the fluidity with which it is used. This is why base Itachi is so devastatingly lethal. He has small, unimpressive jutsu, but is savant-like in utilization.​


IchLiebe said:


> Itachi clones aren't doing shit as Zabuza is the ONLY person to ever beat KAKSASHI, THE KING OF CLONES, in a clone battle. Note that Itachi lost to Kakashi in clones twice.



I wonder if Kakashi would still have the upperhand with clones if he were a 30% clone. Or if he were ambushed by Itachi when he was initially focusing on Kurenai. Your point is moot.​


----------



## trance (Jul 15, 2014)

In his old age, Hiurzen was able to locate and track down Hashirama and Tobirama, despite the former using an A-Rank genjutsu that _completely_ blinded Hiruzen. Zabuza's "Hidden Mist" doesn't fully eliminate sight, just reducing it. If a version of Kakashi that was easily outclassed by Itachi in terms of prowess as a ninja, can promptly strategize and counter Zabuza in the mist, then Itachi surely can.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Your whole theory is pretty much debunked by the fact sauce who's inferior to itachi in genjutsu has genjutsu multiple opponents outside of the 10 meter range before the most obvious being deidara.



Name a different one than Deidara, I'll counter the Deidara one later in the post.



> That and shikamaru's old man already stated itachi can genjutsu multiple opponents outside sensor range.



He assumed Itachi because of Itachi's genjutsu prowess. That about as much as assuming your Mom came in your house and took a cooking pan because she's the only person with a key. But it could be someone else that he never heard of. As they then said it had to be someone of Itachi's level in genjutsu.



> Haku was pulling punches not speed, you fail to address how haiku isn't soloed by a 3 tomoe sharingon wielding clone, the 3 tomoe allowed sasuke to dodge kn0 the same person who already blitzed haku not to mention vote sauce is significantly slower then itachi.



Haku was pulling. We don't know how much in what area so you can't say shit. Haku said he didn't want to kill, and everyone else said Haku held back. We don't know if was throwing needles with less strength or what. The only definite thing is he didn't go for the kill.



> Itachi has multiple feats of fighting without sight, one feat he struck oro another feat defending against Kabuto.



Against Oro? You mean when he hit the huge ass summon with a huge ass sword? That wasn't fighting. Against Kabuto, he simply put susanoo around Sasuke because he knew that's where Kabuto was going. Again not fighting.



> You also fail to address how kakashi was able to defend in the mist but somehow itachi can't? Lol kakashi defended against multiple attacks well before his dogs came into play.



Kakashi has smell sensing feat without the dogs as well as reading air currents to find opponents. Itachi doesn't have that.



> And ie kakashi bushin feinted itachi and itachi also bushin feinted him, kakashi clones never over powered itachi clones so I don't see your point.



Kakashi was never fooled by Itachi's bunshin while that same can't be said for Itachi.



Strategoob said:


> Deidara was several times further away when Sasuke caught him.​



We don't know when Sasuke caught him. But we do know Sasuke got within 5 meters (as chidori eiso is 5 meters). And Sasuke never said when he cast the genjutsu and neither did Deidara so it's all assumptions but the only logical one is when he was in the established genjutsu range of 5 meters.



> Any elite ninja has honed senses and can function with limited vision. Itachi is exceptionally talented at this, however. Moreso than Haku and quite arguably moreso than Zabuza.​



How so? Kakashi had good eyesight and could barely see in the mist. Itachi's blurry ass is fucked. Especially when hearing don't work against the "SILENT killing" Zabuza. We know only certain ninja's have smell sense enhanced. Itachi has no sensing as he himself said. What, is Itachi going to "taste" him and be like 2 meters north, 3 east? LOL



> Consider that Sage Kabuto could make a _much_ larger suiton than Itachi, but that didn't count for much when Itachi was faster than him and flattened him. Zabuza is tiers slower.​




Speed means nothing here when he has nothing to go against. He saw Kabuto and knew to do it then. Here he don't. What's he going to do? He can't see or hear him so he has no clue when it's happening.



> The size of the jutsu, weapon, etc. is secondary to the fluidity with which it is used. This is why base Itachi is so devastatingly lethal. He has small, unimpressive jutsu, but is savant-like in utilization.



And his base arsenal has done jack shit in every fight we've seen.



> I wonder if Kakashi would still have the upperhand with clones if he were a 30% clone. Or if he were ambushed by Itachi when he was initially focusing on Kurenai. Your point is moot.​



Kakashi used a clone against Kisame when he showed up against Itachi putting him at 50% plus sharingan drain on part 1 Itachi and Kakashi still beat him in clones. And that was after the real Kakashi and Itachi talked and decided they would throw down. Your point is moot sir.



Stαrkiller said:


> In his old age, Hiurzen was able to locate and track down Hashirama and Tobirama, despite the former using an A-Rank genjutsu that _completely_ blinded Hiruzen. Zabuza's "Hidden Mist" doesn't fully eliminate sight, just reducing it. If a version of Kakashi that was easily outclassed by Itachi in terms of prowess as a ninja, can promptly strategize and counter Zabuza in the mist, then Itachi surely can.



Hiruzen used smell sensing so all of this means nothing.


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## Bloo (Jul 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Hiruzen used smell sensing so all of this means nothing.


You say that as if Itachi can't smell. We've provided tons of instances in which Itachi successfully attacked or responded to an attack without looking at his opponent, or with his eyes closed, or with _all_ his senses completely blocked off.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 15, 2014)

Bloo said:


> You say that as if Itachi can't smell. We've provided tons of instances in which Itachi successfully attacked or responded to an attack without looking at his opponent, or with his eyes closed, or with _all_ his senses completely blocked off.



Smelling=/=smell sensing. Smell sensing requires you focus chakra to enhance your smelling to a level of sensing. And non of those instances did he ever sniff. He even said he can't smell meaning no smell sensing.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 16, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Name a different one than Deidara, I'll counter the Deidara one later in the post.



Obito controlling the Fox with genjutsu is a second example. Or the moon controlling people with genjutsu. There's really no limit on range so long as you manage to _see_ the visual stimulus.​


IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi was never fooled by Itachi's bunshin while that same can't be said for Itachi.



That would be because Itachi has never used a clone feint on Kakashi. The clone feint that Kakashi intercepted in part one was from the sidelines and was targeted at Kurenai.

It should go without saying that if Itachi's clone feints shocked Sage Kabuto and Eternal Mangekyō Sasuke, then they would prove effective on part one Kakashi, were he the target...​


IchLiebe said:


> And his base arsenal has done jack shit in every fight we've seen.



Except against Sanin, Akatsuki, jinchūriki, and Sharingan masters. Itachi blitzed, controlled, or otherwise humiliated plenty of capable ninja with only his base ninja skill.​


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## Bloo (Jul 16, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Smelling=/=smell sensing.


Where are you getting this from? He sniffed. There's nothing about smell-sensing in Hiruzen being anything different from basic smelling ability. And again. We've proven that Itachi has fought just fine without sight. You're avoiding our points rather clumsily, whereas all of your points have been debunked a while ago.


> Smell sensing requires you focus chakra to enhance your smelling to a level of sensing.


Where in this panel does it suggest he's doing that?
meters


> And non of those instances did he ever sniff.


Yes, but he still responded perfectly fine without sight. Why is it 100% necessary for it to be smell-sensing? Oh that's right, it doesn't.


> *He even said he can't smell* meaning no smell sensing.


Itachi said he's incapable of smell? Please enlighten me with a manga panel.


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## winteriscomming (Jul 16, 2014)

Itatchi with ease, zabuza's strength is unseen killing but sharingan removes that but he did let himself die out of remorse soooo in a serious fight with sharingan knowlage maby? Also haku was going easy but still they lose


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 16, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Name a different one than Deidara, I'll counter the Deidara one later in the post.



Notice how far they are from each other [3]


then [3]

then here sasuke is the lil black dot on the bottom left panel[3]

[3]

this is also about 10 meters possibly more [3]


Kabuto also put an entire arena asleep which im sure is more then ten meters long, the notion that itachi couldn't do it is baseless provided all the examples i just gave you




IchLiebe said:


> He assumed Itachi because of Itachi's genjutsu prowess. That about as much as assuming your Mom came in your house and took a cooking pan because she's the only person with a key. But it could be someone else that he never heard of. As they then said it had to be someone of Itachi's level in genjutsu.



Not the same example as, konoha had some kind of intel of who they where up against already.

and the fact that if they said it had to be someone of itachi's level pretty much backs up the assertion itachi can do it no?



IchLiebe said:


> Haku was pulling. We don't know how much in what area so you can't say shit. Haku said he didn't want to kill, and everyone else said Haku held back. We don't know if was throwing needles with less strength or what. The only definite thing is he didn't go for the kill.



As a edo tensei haku showed no diff speed feats, and it literally makes no sense all the evidence points to haku using his top speed, him trying to escape kn0, him being shocked sasuke can track him, him rushing to end the fight as soon as sasuke unlocked his sharingon, and instead of upping his speed once sasuke unlocked it, he targeted naruto and force sasuke to guard against it. That right there should be obvious enough that he didn't hold back his speed, but  more like he was pulling his punches.





IchLiebe said:


> Against Oro? You mean when he hit the huge ass summon with a huge ass sword? That wasn't fighting. Against Kabuto, he simply put susanoo around Sasuke because he knew that's where Kabuto was going. Again not fighting.




Yeah he was obviously blind at that point so the size of the summon is irrelevant and he has to control his susano so the fact that he couldn't see suggest he can locate opponents without vision.

And if sasuke wasn't there? he would of simply guarded himself.




IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi has smell sensing feat without the dogs as well as reading air currents to find opponents. Itachi doesn't have that.



assumed 

the close up of his eye would suggest he saw  him last moment.

How did smell or air current enable him to block every last one of zabuza's shuriken?

And don't let me bring up old man hiruzen fighting two stronger opponents in pure darkness, not mist.



IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi was never fooled by Itachi's bunshin while that same can't be said for Itachi.


assumed 

The fact that he figured it out last minute and got a bit scorched by the technique would suggest he was fooled for a bit.

Not that it matters tho as itachi doesn't need to bushin feint haku, his bushin will simply overwhelm and kill him.



IchLiebe said:


> We don't know when Sasuke caught him. But we do know Sasuke got within 5 meters (as chidori eiso is 5 meters). And Sasuke never said when he cast the genjutsu and neither did Deidara so it's all assumptions but the only logical one is when he was in the established genjutsu range of 5 meters.



Thats just the assumption that best fits your arguement far from the most logical one, the consensus is deidara was caught more then 10 meters away.



IchLiebe said:


> How so? Kakashi had good eyesight and could barely see in the mist. Itachi's blurry ass is fucked. Especially when hearing don't work against the "SILENT killing" Zabuza. We know only certain ninja's have smell sense enhanced. Itachi has no sensing as he himself said. What, is Itachi going to "taste" him and be like 2 meters north, 3 east? LOL



you have no proof that kakashi used smell to find zabuza, and if he could smell zabuza he wouldn't needed his dogs to track him.


meters
Itachi cited i know this feeling, orochimaru's hydra technique, its obvious itachi has some sort of sense for danger, he may not be a direct sensor in terms of chakra and shyt like that but he has some kind of sense for danger heres another example.

meters
he again cites what a awful feeling, clearly itachi can sense things 2 a degree

this and multiple feats of fighting blind or near blind, and kakashi still defending himself in the mist, it all points to zaubza getting baby shaked.



IchLiebe said:


> Speed means nothing here when he has nothing to go against. He saw Kabuto and knew to do it then. Here he don't. What's he going to do? He can't see or hear him so he has no clue when it's happening.




ask hiruzen or kakashi, itachi can easily replicate the feat and this is all assuming they don't get genjutsu trolled off the bat which they likely will, even izanami is a viable option as zabuza is not killing itachi on his first, second or even third try for that matter.



IchLiebe said:


> And his base arsenal has done jack shit in every fight we've seen.




*Spoiler*: __ 








HIs base arsenal beat a sanin level opponent, pressured kakashi with kurnei's help, and he also beat deidara, hell a 30% clone was able to give kakashi sakura and naruto some trouble and thats a base 30% clone, to say itachi's base arsenal has done jack shyt is baseless and obvious hate on your part.




IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi used a clone against Kisame when he showed up against Itachi putting him at 50% plus sharingan drain on part 1 Itachi and Kakashi still beat him in clones. And that was after the real Kakashi and Itachi talked and decided they would throw down. Your point is moot sir.



What manga are you reading? how did kakashi beat itachi in clones during part 1? 
the only time kakashi fooled itachi with a clone, was against shoten itachi in part 2 please reread the manga sir, kakashi didn't even touch itachi during that exchange




IchLiebe said:


> Hiruzen used smell sensing so all of this means nothing.


 Smell lets you know where your opponent is at, but smell wont enable you to block hits and fight back. As ive already stated itachi has the tools to fight while blind so it wont be hard for him to locate zabuza at all, and this is of course assuming they dont get genjutsued, which you have yet to provide a legitimate reason why they dont


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## IchLiebe (Jul 16, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Where are you getting this from? He sniffed. There's nothing about smell-sensing in Hiruzen being anything different from basic smelling ability. And again. We've proven that Itachi has fought just fine without sight. You're avoiding our points rather clumsily, whereas all of your points have been debunked a while ago.



What person has ever used smell to fight? None. The only time you sniff for an opponent is when smell sensing. And Itachi has never fought fine without sight. He dodged opponents he knew were coming and where from. He has never fought 100% blind. Orochimaru don't count because he used susanoo to stab a huge ass target. Not fighting there.



> Where in this panel does it suggest he's doing that?
> [1]



The sniff.



> Yes, but he still responded perfectly fine without sight. Why is it 100% necessary for it to be smell-sensing? Oh that's right, it doesn't.



Smelling is out the window. Sensing is out the window. Hearing is out the window. Zabuza, a ninja in a WORLD of ninjas, is renowned for his silent killing. Do you know how quiet he has to be to have earned that. No other ninja has that? That means Itachi could hear the others and previously saw them coming and all that is bullshit here. He can't see him, ever. He can't hear him, ever. He can't sense him. How the fuck do you find someone then. Kakashi who read air currents couldn't find Zabuza without sensing, and even had to summon his dogs because his nose wasn't good enough.



> Itachi said he's incapable of smell? Please enlighten me with a manga panel.



I meant incapable of sensing.



Bkprince33 said:


> Notice how far they are from each other [1]
> 
> 
> then [1]



Sasuke moved and we don't clearly see where so to say he's outside 5m is a stretch.



> then here sasuke is the lil black dot on the bottom left panel[1]
> 
> [1]



Killing intent. Orochimaru did the same to team 7 and made them picture themselves dying. They even said his mere presence did that.



> this is also about 10 meters possibly more [1]



Angle's fucked up but probably the only one close.



> Kabuto also put an entire arena asleep which im sure is more then ten meters long, the notion that itachi couldn't do it is baseless provided all the examples i just gave you



Kabuto didn't use a vision based genjutsu. 




> Not the same example as, konoha had some kind of intel of who they where up against already.
> 
> and the fact that if they said it had to be someone of itachi's level pretty much backs up the assertion itachi can do it no?



They said the person had to be good enough to do it behind a sensor's range. Itachi's the most renowned genjutsu user in the world. It's common he's their first thought. If someone used a suiton and destroyed the entire leaf village who would you assume it was? The person most people would say is Kisame. And then it shows you that it was actually multiple people meaning you thinking it was Kisame doesn't give Kisame that feat.



> As a edo tensei haku showed no diff speed feats, and it literally makes no sense all the evidence points to haku using his top speed, him trying to escape kn0, him being shocked sasuke can track him, him rushing to end the fight as soon as sasuke unlocked his sharingon, and instead of upping his speed once sasuke unlocked it, he targeted naruto and force sasuke to guard against it. That right there should be obvious enough that he didn't hold back his speed, but  more like he was pulling his punches.



Haku kept up with war arc Kakashi. And Lee. And then he still pulled punches as he hit Sasuke in places not to kill him. As he said, they looked like they were moving in slow motion the whole time.




> Yeah he was obviously blind at that point so the size of the summon is irrelevant and he has to control his susano so the fact that he couldn't see suggest he can locate opponents without vision.



A huge ass summon that he has seen and knows is fucking huge is in that vicinity. Common sense to use a big ass sword to stab him. Not hard to locate that.



> And if sasuke wasn't there? he would of simply guarded himself.



And putting susanoo up isn't fighting. If someone throws a punch and I ball up in the fetal position, that doesn't equate to me fighting.



> [1]
> 
> the close up of his eye would suggest he saw  him last moment.
> 
> ...



He heard them and then saw them. Once they get close enough you can see. That's what we know. But the next panel is Zabuza behind him and Kakashi didn't know he was there till he talked. Zabuza could've straight up killed him but wanted to talk. 

Hiruzen used smell sensing to grab them. He didn't do much of anything except block with his hands up while standing still besides that.



> [1]
> 
> The fact that he figured it out last minute and got a bit scorched by the technique would suggest he was fooled for a bit.
> 
> Not that it matters tho as itachi doesn't need to bushin feint haku, his bushin will simply overwhelm and kill him.



Except Kakashi saw ahead of it and countered.

Itachi won't be able fight Haku because of the mist. Haku is confirmed to know how to fight in the mist or see or something, as he watched the first fight with Zabuza and team 7 and made counters to sharingan.




> Thats just the assumption that best fits your arguement far from the most logical one, the consensus is deidara was caught more then 10 meters away.



The consensus century's ago was that the earth was flat. If someone said that nowadays you would laugh at them. Again, it's all assumption because we were never told when it happened but do know Sasuke got within 5m right before all that happened.



> you have no proof that kakashi used smell to find zabuza, and if he could smell zabuza he wouldn't needed his dogs to track him.



He showed smell sensing in his gaiden and you don't just lose jutsu. And Kakashi might not have, but Kakashi didn't do a full scale fight really. They skirmished, and the only time Zabuza used ninjutsu was when he was freaking out about the copy shit and didn't thicken the mist. Itachi has almost never copied a jutsu so don't even try to use it..



> [1]
> Itachi cited i know this feeling, orochimaru's hydra technique, its obvious itachi has some sort of sense for danger, he may not be a direct sensor in terms of chakra and shyt like that but he has some kind of sense for danger heres another example.



It's the same when you walk down the road at night and get chill bumps. It also obvious that ninja's exert a certain "feeling". Such as Orochimaru merely being there causes genins to picture themselves dying, Hashirama almost destroying a building. However you can fight them solely on that. They couldn't find Orochimaru until he showed himself and flexed chakra like Hashi did. And again Itachi knew the size, distance, and location of it because that's where Sasuke was before he went blind.



> [1]
> he again cites what a awful feeling, clearly itachi can sense things 2 a degree



Go outside when a storm is coming. The same thing can happen in real life. It's just the way the air feels. Again nothing showing he can find or locate something.



> this and multiple feats of fighting blind or near blind, and kakashi still defending himself in the mist, it all points to zaubza getting baby shaked.



Half ass feats that prove nothing. Kakashi only defending himself when Zabuza was talking or he heard shuriken coming. 




> ask hiruzen or kakashi, itachi can easily replicate the feat and this is all assuming they don't get genjutsu trolled off the bat which they likely will, even izanami is a viable option as zabuza is not killing itachi on his first, second or even third try for that matter.



No, he can't.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We don't know how the Orochimaru fight went down so you can't say that. Part 1 Kakashi didn't use Kurenai at all and he's not a kage level nin at that time. The clone didn't give Kakashi any trouble. It was handily taken care of.




> What manga are you reading? how did kakashi beat itachi in clones during part 1?
> the only time kakashi fooled itachi with a clone, was against shoten itachi in part 2 please reread the manga sir, kakashi didn't even touch itachi during that exchange



Kakashi saw through Itachi's clones while Itachi didn't. Kakashi would have gone unhurt if it wasn't for Kurenai's useless ass.



> Smell lets you know where your opponent is at, but smell wont enable you to block hits and fight back. As ive already stated itachi has the tools to fight while blind so it wont be hard for him to locate zabuza at all, and this is of course assuming they dont get genjutsued, which you have yet to provide a legitimate reason why they dont



And no one has really done that with smell, except Kiba's clan. Hiruzen used it to find and grab the person. Kakashi uses it to find people.

Locating Zabuza in the mist is a lot harder than people are giving it credit for. And the mist gets up before genjutsu.


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## Bloo (Jul 16, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> What person has ever used smell to fight? None. The only time you sniff for an opponent is when smell sensing. And Itachi has never fought fine without sight. He dodged opponents he knew were coming and where from. He has never fought 100% blind. Orochimaru don't count because he used susanoo to stab a huge ass target. Not fighting there.


We have provided TONS of examples of Itachi attacking and defending and even training without vision, LOS, or any of his senses. You refuse to accept the fact that you lost





> The sniff.


Where in the manga does it even talk about enhanced sense of smell in manga aside from Kakashi's dogs??? The sniff could have just been a sniff. Nothing special regarding it. I myself can sniff. It doesn't mean I'm using chakra, obviously. That panel, as I implied, proves NOTHING. Just like the rest of your "points".



> Smelling is out the window. Sensing is out the window. Hearing is out the window. Zabuza, a ninja in a WORLD of ninjas, is renowned for his silent killing. Do you know how quiet he has to be to have earned that. No other ninja has that? That means Itachi could hear the others and previously saw them coming and all that is bullshit here. He can't see him, ever. He can't hear him, ever. He can't sense him. How the fuck do you find someone then. Kakashi who read air currents couldn't find Zabuza without sensing, and even had to summon his dogs because his nose wasn't good enough.


Kakashi fought Zabuza and deflected his attacks fine. This point has been moot for a while. And even if it were legitimate, your entire argument rides on the out-of-character move on Zabuza's part to open with this jutsu. All of that means your entire argument is illogical.

Sorry, but I truly believe you're incapable of following logic.



> Sasuke moved and we don't clearly see where so to say he's outside 5m is a stretch.


My proponents have provided more examples of long-distance genjutsu. Please quit ignoring manga facts.


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