# Itachi's real strength and potential



## Bookworm (Jan 31, 2018)

Most people think Itachi is pretty much at the level we thought he was at, however... Itachi could of been far stronger than he appeared and may have had the potential to surpass Madara.


1. *Genjutsu*

Itachi was unmistakably a genjutsu master, but how good was he, really? Let's go back to the Itachi vs Sasuke fight. Sasuke notices a pattern and says this about Itachi: "The exact same words as before, as well as crows, starting out with your favorite genjutsu farce, eh."

The pattern Sasuke notices is that Itachi has a habit, when Itachi says "Sasuke, you've gotten stronger", Sasuke is in a genjutsu. So what's the point of me saying this? It's what Itachi says after he blocked Kirin with Susanoo: "You really have gotten stronger Sasuke." What I'm getting at is Sasuke was still in genjutsu, when Susanoo blocked Kirin.

Tobi said that Itachi planned out the contingencies for his fight with Sasuke, but how would he be able to make sure Sasuke did what he wanted? The answer is hypnotic genjutsu. You might be thinking that's impossible, because Sasuke broke out of his strongest genjutsu, Tsukuyomi, but did Sasuke really break it? It's true that Itachi said Tsukuyomi could be broken by the sharingan, but you should keep 2 things in mind: if Tsukuyomi actually couldn't be broken by 3 Tomoe would Itachi actually tell Kakashi that? Itachi wanted to make it believable that he was killed by Sasuke, if Tsukuyomi couldn't be broken by Sasuke, that would cast doubt on Sasuke's ability to beat him. The second thing to keep in mind is Itachi is a liar, as I mentioned above Itachi had reason to lie. 

2.* Speed
*
Itachi's foot speed was great enough that he was able to create a KB, have it stand in his former position and get behind Kakashi without being noticed by any of the 3 enemy combatants there. His handseal speed can't be followed even by Sasuke's sharingan. This is speculation, but reasonable; with his two types of speed combined he should be able to take anyone's back, if he uses KB. Naruto showcased how this could be done, when he created a KB behind Kakashi's back. With Itachi's handseal speed it could be done at anytime, he's in range without warning.   


3.* Chakra Capacity *

Before we talk about Itachi's chakra capacity, I have to bring up Sasuke's. This is what Kakashi said about Sasuke's chakra capacity as a genin: "That skill is beyond the capacity of a novice. His chakra shouldn't have developed enough yet to perform it!"

 later on, after the first fight with Zabuza) Kakashi said this about Sasuke's chakra capacity: "On the other hand within them Naruto and Sasuke both harbor such massive untapped reserves of chakra that Sakura is nothing in comparison..."

It's safe to say Sasuke had above average chakra capacity as a genin. Even when he was in the academy Sasuke  could use Gokakyuu, but he had to train to use Gokakyuu, he couldn't get it on the first try. Fugaku mentioned that it was different with Itachi, this implies that one, Itachi was able to use Gokakyuu at a similar age and two, on the first try. All of this means Itachi chakra capacity was large for an academy student, even larger than Sasuke's was, because he didn't need to train to use Gokayuu.  Itachi was just like Sasuke as far chakra capacity.

Itachi's sickness must of reduced his chakra capacity. We've seen that old age can reduce chakra capacity and it makes sense that illness would as well. For instance, take a flu, white blood cells die fighting off the virus and takes energy to replace them. Illnesses take energy to deal with.

Chakra Capacity is important for the reason Kisame stated when Itachi's shouten clone was killed: "We did give the sacrifices 30 percent of our chakra. It is a useful jutsu, but the substitutes because we don't allot them much chakra are limited in strength and in the jutsu they use." This is the same reason why KB only have a fraction of the user's ability. The more chakra the user has the more jutsu are available to them and the more chakra they can pump into those jutsu. I think this is the main difference between 3 tomoe Itachi and 3 tomoe Madara. Small chakra capacity limits the number of tactics available.


4.* Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan*

With Sasuke's eyes he would also gain, Sasuke's eye power, more importantly without sickness or the threat of blindness he would be able to use MS, much more freely. With more use and experience he can master Susanoo, gaining the full legged form and the complete body (Perfect) Susanoo. What perfect Susanoo requires to use it is a certain level of skill, with Susanoo.

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## Buuhan (Jan 31, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Most people think Itachi is pretty much at the level we thought he was it, however... Itachi could of been far stronger than he appeared and may of had the potential to surpass Madara.
> 
> 
> 1. *Genjutsu*
> ...


Im liking the deductions your making here. Its pretty hard to judge Itachis potential given we don't know the specifics of his ninja aids, but that kishis fault. If Itachi had EMS and reserves greater that WA Sasuke he would be a beast. His PS would wield legendary weapons which include a highly durable shield, and one hit sealing sword. Not only would you have to avoid the blade, but dealing with AM + Tsukuyomi at the same time would be a nightmare.

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## ThomasTheCat (Jan 31, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Im liking the deductions your making here. Its pretty hard to judge Itachis potential given we don't know the specifics of his ninja aids, but that kishis fault. If Itachi had EMS and reserves greater that WA Sasuke he would be a beast. His PS would wield legendary weapons which include a highly durable shield, and one hit sealing sword. Not only would you have to avoid the blade, but dealing with AM + Tsukuyomi at the same time would be a nightmare.



Yeah, I could see people that know about Tsukuyomi looking into Itachi's eyes accidentally if he popped PS. The sheer size of the PS to an unexpecting opponent is bound to drop their focus. PS w/ Totsuka wrecks summons and Bijuu if they aren't careful.


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## Djomla (Jan 31, 2018)

There is no Uchiha that could surpass Madara and Sasuke. Indra reincarnation and all. Same goes for Senjus and Hashi, Naruto.

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## The Great One (Jan 31, 2018)

Itachi's potential is nothing impressive if you take out his MS Hax.

Itachi needing those Hax to stay in game means that he is not as special as his fans makes him out.

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## BlackHeartedImp (Jan 31, 2018)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Itachi's potential is nothing impressive if you take out his MS Hax.
> 
> Itachi needing those Hax to stay in game means that he is not as special as his fans makes him out.


You can say that about literally any Uchiha

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 31, 2018)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> You can say that about literally any Uchiha


Sasuke invented his own S ranked jutsu, mastered an element, and had a snake summoning contract at 16. Sasuke was special even without any Sharingan or Indra related stuff.

Then taking into account that he has both MS and Indra potential, and his natural potential is tiers above Itachi or any other Uchiha.

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## Punished Pathos (Jan 31, 2018)

No need to provide such a lengthy explanation, OP.  Your username tells us exactly where Itachi's true strength lies.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jan 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Sasuke invented his own S ranked jutsu, mastered an element, and had a snake summoning contract at 16. Sasuke was special even without any Sharingan or Indra related stuff.
> 
> Then taking into account that he has both MS and Indra potential, and his natural potential is tiers above Itachi or any other Uchiha.


Yeah, I'm not trying to dispute that. I'm just saying that taking away the MS from Itachi and then saying his potential is "nothing impressive" is massive bias considering he was just as skilled as Sasuke in many areas. Itachi himself had great handsign speed (faster than a sharingan can track), shuriken skills, etc and likely wouldn't have had much trouble learning how to summon himself. Almost all Uchihas could have been exemplary outside of hax, except Obito


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## 1yesman9 (Jan 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Sasuke invented his own S ranked jutsu, mastered an element, and had a snake summoning contract at 16. Sasuke was special even without any Sharingan or Indra related stuff.
> 
> Then taking into account that he has both MS and Indra potential, and his natural potential is tiers above Itachi or any other Uchiha.



Itachi was consistently portrayed to be a greater genius than Sasuke, mastering fireball on his first try, mastering shari at 8, having hokage-esque wisdom at 7, becoming anbu captain at 13, 2nd greatest talent in academy... I'm sure I don't have to give you the run down.

Also sharingan made learning jutsu easier for both Sasuke & Itachi, so it's not right to attribute that to natural talent. When it came to mastering jutsu w/o sharingan Itachi stomped Sasuke. Not to mention Sasuke had the motivation to train to get stronger than Itachi, while Itachi had the motivation to stay stagnant once he reached akatsuki.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 31, 2018)

What separates Naruto and Sasuke from Jiraiya/Itachi is FRS/Kirin they have two S-Rank abilities without their signature power with Sage Mode/MS


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## Buuhan (Jan 31, 2018)

Out of Sasuke and Itachi, the latter was always portayed as the more prodigal brother in terms of early development. Im sure Itachi excelled in as many areas as Sasuke. Having a debilitating disease and acting as a spy for the leaf at the age Sasuke was training with a sannin doesn't really tell me Sasuke is more prodigal.

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## Buuhan (Jan 31, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Yeah, I could see people that know about Tsukuyomi looking into Itachi's eyes accidentally if he popped PS. The sheer size of the PS to an unexpecting opponent is bound to drop their focus. PS w/ Totsuka wrecks summons and Bijuu if they aren't careful.


Not to mention the powers of one's eyes improve in terms of how you can control them once EMS is in play.


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## Trojan (Jan 31, 2018)

Itachi was shown at full potential, he has nothing else to offer. Given him, extra things do not tell us anything about his potential, as you could say the same thing about all characters.... :V

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 31, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Itachi was shown at full potential, he has nothing else to offer. Given him, extra things do not tell us anything about his potential, as you could say the same thing about all characters.... :V


It’s mostly going to come down to the same people saying that Itachi was pulling off Chunin level feats before he was 10 while ignoring Sasuke was pulling off God Tier feats at 17, and using statements comparing 13 year old Sasuke to 13 year old Itachi instead of comparing 16 year old Sasuke to 21 year old Itachi.

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 31, 2018)

1yesman9 said:


> Itachi was consistently portrayed to be a greater genius than Sasuke, mastering fireball on his first try, mastering shari at 8, having hokage-esque wisdom at 7, becoming anbu captain at 13, 2nd greatest talent in academy... I'm sure I don't have to give you the run down.



These are Genin, Chunin, and Jonin level feats. 



> Also sharingan made learning jutsu easier for both Sasuke & Itachi, so it's not right to attribute that to natural talent.



Sasuke didn’t copy his half a dozen Chidori variants, Kirin, or Kuchiyose.



> When it came to mastering jutsu w/o sharingan Itachi stomped Sasuke.



Then why is 16 year old Sasuke’s base arsenal bigger and more powerful than 21 year old base Itachi’s?


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## 1yesman9 (Jan 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> These are Genin, Chunin, and Jonin level feats.



Irrelevant. I'm pointing out their relative skill at different ages.



Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Sasuke didn’t copy his half a dozen Chidori variants, Kirin, or Kuchiyose.



Cross chidori varients out of your list. Those wouldn't of been possible w/o knowing chidori as a base. 99% of Sasuke's Kuchiyose was copied straight from oro.



Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Then why is 16 year old Sasuke’s base arsenal bigger and more powerful than 21 year old base Itachi’s?



Potential is possible skill. Skill is effort + talent, so potential is possible effort + possible talent. Everyone's got the same possible effort, but different talents, so potential boils down to who's got the most talent. How do you judge talent? Control for effort. When Itachi & Sasuke showed similar effort, Itachi beat out Sasuke ( 8 yr old itachi > 8 yr old sasuke ). When Itachi's effort went to 0 and Sasuke's went to 200, Sasuke beat out Itachi. All the evidance points to Itachi having more potential.

In other words like I said, Sasuke had motivation to train, Itachi had motivation to stay stagnant. That's consistently reflected in the plot where Sasuke did nothing but try his hardest to kill Itachi, while itachi did nothing by try his hardest to get killed by sasuke.

But when Itachi puts a little effort in he shows vastly more genius than Sasuke ( 8 year old fire ball jutsu ).


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## Bookworm (Jan 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> It’s mostly going to come down to the same people saying that Itachi was pulling off Chunin level feats before he was 10 while ignoring Sasuke was pulling off God Tier feats at 17, and using statements comparing 13 year old Sasuke to 13 year old Itachi instead of comparing 16 year old Sasuke to 21 year old Itachi.



Sasuke was given 6paths chakra and the Rinnegan by the SO6P, so that's why had the feats he had.


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## 1yesman9 (Jan 31, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Itachi was shown at full potential, he has nothing else to offer. Given him, extra things do not tell us anything about his potential, as you could say the same thing about all characters.... :V



You can't say that any of the characters learned a c rank elemental jutsu on their first try when they were eight, then explicitly lost all motivation to train when they were 15 making it so that they wouldn't continue on with their rapid growth.


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Jan 31, 2018)

He was the best genjutsu user in Series without doubt (look on his fight in Naruto ep. 81) and only Shisui was probably on par with Itachi in that kind of jutsus. He could also stomp Hebi Sasuke, who was S-rank at that time. Assuming his other skills (fast learning, high Battle Iq, knowledge on history), I would rank him as 3rd to 5th in intelligence ranking. In terms of power, he is 2 tiers below Sauce, Naruto, Madara and Hashirama. I mean prime Hashi and Madara.


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## Buuhan (Jan 31, 2018)

Sasuke recieved  six paths chakra from Hagoromo himself as well as an awakened 6 tomoe rinnegan. I fail to see how this counts in a comparison with itachi in the very least considering he was granted said powers.


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## MSAL (Jan 31, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Itachi was shown at full potential, he has nothing else to offer. Given him, extra things do not tell us anything about his potential, as you could say the same thing about all characters.... :V




Sure, because giving him a pathetic 2.5 in stamina (which is far below any average across all stats, for most characters of his tier), having him receive constant hype throughout the manga, including after his death, having him display his mastery of genjutsu in various ways..etc etc show he lived up to his full potential. 


Oh, did I mention that Sasuke got to unlock Rinnegan *whilst using Itachi's eyes*? ;3

But sure, potential all fulfilled


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## Trojan (Jan 31, 2018)

MSAL said:


> Sure, because giving him a pathetic 2.5 in stamina (which is far below any average across all stats, for most characters of his tier), having him receive constant hype throughout the manga, including after his death, having him display his mastery of genjutsu in various ways..etc etc show he lived up to his full potential.
> 
> 
> Oh, did I mention that Sasuke got to unlock Rinnegan *whilst using Itachi's eyes*? ;3
> ...



- His chakra is like that, so how is that anyone's problem? Might as well, "sure because not given Tsunade a wood KKG, not showing all her elements...etc etc means she was shown at her full potential!". That's pure nonsense. 

- His hype is often about what he did with his clan. It has nothing to do with how powerful he "should have been".


- So? Sasuke is indra's reincarnation and got Asura's chakra as well (Via Naruto/Hashirama, or Hago, whatever the case may be). That does not mean itachi is capable of doing that!  


And if itachi were to live 1 second more, he would have been completely blind. The only thing he had after his battle against Sasuke was to go down!


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## MSAL (Jan 31, 2018)

Hussain said:


> - His chakra is like that, so how is that anyone's problem? Might as well, "sure because not given Tsunade a wood KKG, not showing all her elements...etc etc means she was shown at her full potential!". That's pure nonsense.



It's got everything to do with that because chakra what fuels a ninja's abilities. Having a reduced chakra palette because of his ninja aids or whatever other reasons is an obvious restriction on what he can do. Common sense man.


-





> His hype is often about what he did with his clan. It has nothing to do with how powerful he "should have been".



He had a lot of hype. His genjutsu was also hyped by various characters. However, the clan killing was big hype enough until the retarded excuses Kishi wrote in later to try to consolidate his conversion from a villain to a hero. And yes, it has everything to do with power AND ability given how powerful and dangerous we see Sharingan users are in combat (including non-Uchiha Sharingan wielders), until said retarded excuses were later given to try and consolidate. You can't tell me going from killing the Uchiha, to whacking them off when they were asleep and with help wasn't retarded, given that the entire context before that reason was Itachi did it alone and implied to have been directly.




> - So? Sasuke is indra's reincarnation and got Asura's chakra as well (Via Naruto/Hashirama, or Hago, whatever the case may be). That does not mean itachi is capable of doing that!



You're missing my point. Sasuke used Itachi's eyes to unlock higher levels of doujutsu. Obviously that was also down to Sasuke' genetics as well, but the fact he used the eyes also indicates potential. What potential? Who knows.




> And if itachi were to live 1 second more, he would have been completely blind. The only thing he had after his battle against Sasuke was to go down!



Sure. He went down fighting for what he viewed a better cause. Too bad kishi nerfed him with an unknown and unexplained disease. Another unresolved plot point by a promising writer at first, but washed out, cliched writer by the end.

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## Trojan (Jan 31, 2018)

MSAL said:


> It's got everything to do with that because chakra what fuels a ninja's abilities. Having a reduced chakra palette because of his ninja aids or whatever other reasons is an obvious restriction on what he can do. Common sense man.


Where was it stated that his chakra is average because of illness or whatever? 



MSAL said:


> He had a lot of hype. His genjutsu was also hyped by various characters. However, the clan killing was big hype enough until the retarded excuses Kishi wrote in later to try to consolidate his conversion from a villain to a hero. And yes, it has everything to do with power AND ability given how powerful and dangerous we see Sharingan users are in combat (including non-Uchiha Sharingan wielders), until said retarded excuses were later given to try and consolidate. You can't tell me going from killing the Uchiha, to whacking them off when they were asleep and with help wasn't retarded, given that the entire context before that reason was Itachi did it alone and implied to have been directly.


-Ok, he shows the best he has to offer in Genjutsu already!  
- Well, can't help it if he did not do what you thought he did. :V



MSAL said:


> You're missing my point. Sasuke used Itachi's eyes to unlock higher levels of doujutsu. Obviously that was also down to Sasuke' genetics as well, but the fact he used the eyes also indicates potential. What potential? Who knows.


It does not really. Because that has nothing to do with itachi himself, it has everything to do with Sasuke. 



MSAL said:


> Sure. He went down fighting for what he viewed a better cause. Too bad kishi nerfed him with an unknown and unexplained disease. Another unresolved plot point by a promising writer at first, but washed out, cliched writer by the end.



The only nerf that was stated is he could have dodged some weapons and whatnot. It was never implied that itachi will be 10 times stronger or anything of that sort.


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## MSAL (Jan 31, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Where was it stated that his chakra is average because of illness or whatever?



It's not. That's why I also covered my back by saying "or for whatever other reasons"

It's logical to assume *it's at least partially* because of that, given the fact his average stamina was below average for other Uchiha alone, let alone other similarly rated characters. Also, because of the fact it clearly hindered/impaired his ability to fight as it advanced over time


-





> Ok, he shows the best he has to offer in Genjutsu already!



That's wrong for a lot of reasons, but one clear reason, would be because he was said to control people with genjutsu outside of the range of sensors. That's only explored partially in part 1 (with the woman bait for Jiraiya) but never explored outside that. That alone is proof of his mastery. Various other reasons exist, as I also stated.



> - Well, can't help it if he did not do what you thought he did. :V



Because of bad writing.




> It does not really. Because that has nothing to do with itachi himself, it has everything to do with Sasuke.



I'm not sure I totally agree here, but that's your opinion, so I'll drop this for now.





> The only nerf that was stated is he could have dodged some weapons and whatnot. It was never implied that itachi will be 10 times stronger or anything of that sort.



Nor am I implying he would be that much stronger. But it's pretty obvious his normal fighting style was hindered. There is no need for it to be referenced by Zetsu, if it wasn't noticeable. given Itachi  needs to be mobile because of his crappy stamina, it's a detriment to his fighting style. Also, given the importance of chakra, whi knows what he could've done if his stamina was averaged normally. 

The obvious reason is because he had to give Itachi a weakness otherwise he would've become too strong an opponent for the protagonists. This is one of the kew things I praise Kishi for in relation to Itachi. Giving him a nerf from the beginning makes his later "defeat" a bit more believable - rigged or not - as opposed to what kishi did with Madara, making him a powerful enough an opponent that only Kaguya could outright defeat him. Also, another shounen example of that is Aizen from Bleach. He was made that powerful that his eventual defeat took place with a higher scaled character to fight evenly, and even then it seemed unbelievable given his strength.

So yes, that's where I stand on that.


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## Bookworm (Feb 1, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Sasuke invented his own S ranked jutsu, mastered an element, and had a snake summoning contract at 16. Sasuke was special even without any Sharingan or Indra related stuff.
> 
> Then taking into account that he has both MS and Indra potential, and his natural potential is tiers above Itachi or any other Uchiha.



Having a summon isn't really impressive. Also Itachi has crow summons. What about being Indra's reincarnation makes Sasuke better than Itachi?


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## Kisame (Feb 1, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Most people think Itachi is pretty much at the level we thought he was at, however... Itachi could of been far stronger than he appeared and may have had the potential to surpass Madara.


Itachi never had the potential to surpass Madara, the strongest Uchiha. Only Sasuke did.


> The pattern Sasuke notices is that Itachi has a habit, when Itachi says "Sasuke, you've gotten stronger", Sasuke is in a genjutsu. So what's the point of me saying this? It's what Itachi says after he blocked Kirin with Susanoo: "You really have gotten stronger Sasuke." *What I'm getting at is Sasuke was still in genjutsu, when Susanoo blocked Kirin.*


That's poetic. 


> Tobi said that Itachi planned out the contingencies for his fight with Sasuke, but how would he be able to make sure Sasuke did what he wanted? The answer is hypnotic genjutsu.


Only Tobi has shown the ability to use hypnosis on high level shinobi like the perfect Jinchuriki of the three tails Yagura (4th Mizukage).

Itachi can hypnotize citizens (female to distract Jiraiya) and no one on a higher level than that. If he could actually hypnotize Sasuke do you know how powerful that'd make him? We won't even need to talk about his "potential" as he'll already be too powerful.


> You might be thinking that's impossible, because Sasuke broke out of his strongest genjutsu, Tsukuyomi, but did Sasuke really break it? It's true that Itachi said Tsukuyomi could be broken by the sharingan, but you should keep 2 things in mind: if Tsukuyomi actually couldn't be broken by 3 Tomoe would Itachi actually tell Kakashi that? Itachi wanted to make it believable that he was killed by Sasuke, if Tsukuyomi couldn't be broken by Sasuke, that would cast doubt on Sasuke's ability to beat him.


It's much easier to interpret what he told to Kakashi as the truth of how the technique works and what are the requirements for countering it...


> The second thing to keep in mind is Itachi is a liar, as I mentioned above Itachi had reason to lie.


Tsukiyomi can be broken by a Uchiha with a sharingan who is proficient in genjutsu, that's not a lie.


> 2.* Speed
> *
> Itachi's foot speed was great enough that he was able to create a KB, have it stand in his former position and get behind Kakashi without being noticed by any of the 3 enemy combatants there. *His handseal speed can't be followed even by Sasuke's sharingan.*


Then how did the fireball clash happen? 




> 3.* Chakra Capacity *
> 
> Before we talk about Itachi's chakra capacity, I have to bring up Sasuke's. This is what Kakashi said about Sasuke's chakra capacity as a genin: "That skill is beyond the capacity of a novice. His chakra shouldn't have developed enough yet to perform it!"
> 
> ...


No, that It means he was more talented at learning jutsu.

1/ We know it does not necessarily have to do with chakra capacity as you see with part 1 Naruto
2/ Itachi already has low stamina per DB stat, which leads to the conclusion that he has better chakra control/talent, etc not chakra capacity.


> Itachi's sickness must of reduced his chakra capacity. We've seen that old age can reduce chakra capacity and it makes sense that illness would as well. For instance, take a flu, white blood cells die fighting off the virus and takes energy to replace them. Illnesses take energy to deal with.


Yes but to what extent? Itachi's sickness in and of itself has a very vague role in influencing his performance so it's near impossible to honestly imply there is even a shred of evidence that his stamina was greatly affected.

Heck, the only direct comments we have from Zetsu regarding this is Itachi should have dodged Sasuke's shuriken, etc.


> Chakra Capacity is important for the reason Kisame stated when Itachi's shouten clone was killed: "We did give the sacrifices 30 percent of our chakra. It is a useful jutsu, but the substitutes because we don't allot them much chakra are limited in strength and in the jutsu they use." This is the same reason why KB only have a fraction of the user's ability. The more chakra the user has the more jutsu are available to them and the more chakra they can pump into those jutsu. I think this is the main difference between 3 tomoe Itachi and 3 tomoe Madara. Small chakra capacity limits the number of tactics available.


Itachi's small chakra capacity is part of who he is. You can't take that away from him though.

Other than that, 3 tomoe Madara was much more proficient in CQC and had much better Katon techniques. So no, chakra capacity isn't the only significant difference.



> 4.* Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan*
> 
> With Sasuke's eyes he would also gain, Sasuke's eye power, more importantly without sickness or the threat of blindness he would be able to use MS, much more freely. With more use and experience he can master Susanoo, gaining the full legged form and the complete body (Perfect) Susanoo. What perfect Susanoo requires to use it is a certain level of skill, with Susanoo.


He would still be weaker than EMS Sasuke or EMS Madara though.

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## Shazam (Feb 1, 2018)

Minato had higher potential

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## Bookworm (Feb 1, 2018)

Shark said:


> Itachi never had the potential to surpass Madara, the strongest Uchiha. Only Sasuke did.


According to Itachi, he did.


Shark said:


> Only Tobi has shown the ability to use hypnosis on high level shinobi like the perfect Jinchuriki of the three tails Yagura (4th Mizukage).
> 
> Itachi can hypnotize citizens (female to distract Jiraiya) and no one on a higher level than that. If he could actually hypnotize Sasuke do you know how powerful that'd make him? We won't even need to talk about his "potential" as he'll already be too powerful.


Yet Tobi couldn't hypnotize Bee or Naruto, who were both perfect Jinchuuriki. Why would Itachi being able to hypnotize Sasuke make him too powerful? Sasuke just had a 3 tomoe.


Shark said:


> It's much easier to interpret what he told to Kakashi as the truth of how the technique works and what are the requirements for countering it...


Kakashi said there was no cancelling the effects of Tsukuyomi. Besides what I said still make sense, doesn't it?


Shark said:


> Tsukiyomi can be broken by a Uchiha with a sharingan who is proficient in genjutsu, that's not a lie.


Tsukuyomi has only been used one Uchiha and that's Sasuke.


Shark said:


> Then how did the fireball clash happen?


Who knows, maybe Itachi read Sasuke's handseals.


Shark said:


> No, that It means he was more talented at learning jutsu.
> 
> 1/ We know it does not necessarily have to do with chakra capacity as you see with part 1 Naruto
> 2/ Itachi already has low stamina per DB stat, which leads to the conclusion that he has better chakra control/talent, etc not chakra capacity.


1. Why are you referencing Naruto here?
2. I disagree that leads to that conclusion that he _just_ had better chakra control and even if Itachi does there's still a bare minimum of chakra needed for Gokakyuu.


Shark said:


> Other than that, 3 tomoe Madara was much more proficient in CQC and had much better Katon techniques. So no, chakra capacity isn't the only significant difference.


The CQC skills Madara showcased was mostly against fodder. Madara had a larger chakra capacity so he can use large scale katon.


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## Kisame (Feb 1, 2018)

Trolling said:


> According to Itachi, he did.


According to Tobi, Itachi was lying.


> Yet Tobi couldn't hypnotize Bee or Naruto, who were both perfect Jinchuuriki. Why would Itachi being able to hypnotize Sasuke make him too powerful? Sasuke just had a 3 tomoe.


Because Bee and Naruto are on a higher level in general than Yagura.

The ability to hypnotize is not like any other genjutsu, you're literally controlling the the person's actions.


> Kakashi said there was no cancelling the effects of Tsukuyomi.


What do you mean? Kakashi isn't an Uchiha.

Tsunade also cancelled the effects of Tsukiyomi.


> Besides what I said still make sense, doesn't it.


It's reaching.


> Tsukuyomi has only been used one Uchiha and that's Sasuke.


It was used on Sasuke three times, and on Kakashi once. Sasuke broke it the third time as he fulfilled the prerequisites for it.


> Who knows, maybe Itachi read Sasuke's handseals.


How could a clash of the same jutsu happen in the first place if one of the casters is incapable of reading the other's hand seals?


> 1. Why are you referencing Naruto here?


To point out that huge chakra capacity does not necessarily = Chakra control or jutsu mastery/talent.


> 2. I disagree that leads to that conclusion that he _just_ had better chakra control and even if Itachi does there's still a bare minimum of chakra needed for Gokakyuu.


True, but it does make the reserves argument less significant.


> The CQC skills Madara showcased was mostly against fodder. *Madara had a larger chakra capacity so he use large scale katon*.


False.

The size of the jutsu is not related to the stamina of the user unless that is an actual property of the Jutsu (like Yomi Numa).

Madara used a bigger katon because he has that technique and Itachi doesn't.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Feb 1, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Having a summon isn't really impressive. Also Itachi has crow summons. What about being Indra's reincarnation makes Sasuke better than Itachi?


Having a giant summon requires finding a summon, having the chakra to summon it without depleting yourself, and earning its respect or support. That requires more skill than using the Totsuka or Yata Mirror.

Itachi’s crow summons cannot fight.

Being an Indra reincarnation gives Sasuke more chakra than Itachi and ultimately set the stage for getting Hagoromo’s chakra infusion.


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## Kisame (Feb 1, 2018)

Having a summon is more impressive than not having a summon.

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Feb 1, 2018)

1yesman9 said:


> Irrelevant. I'm pointing out their relative skill at different ages.


And pointing out low level abilities they learned at eight doesn’t reflect potential. 



> Cross chidori varients out of your list. Those wouldn't of been possible w/o knowing chidori as a base.



Sasuke created those Chidori variants. Itachi had 21 years to invent his own jutsu and never did. 



> 99% of Sasuke's Kuchiyose was copied straight from oro.



And yet, Itachi never managed to copy anything as strong as Aoda.



> Potential is possible skill. Skill is effort + talent, so potential is possible effort + possible talent. Everyone's got the same possible effort, but different talents, so potential boils down to who's got the most talent. How do you judge talent? Control for effort. When Itachi & Sasuke showed similar effort, Itachi beat out Sasuke ( 8 yr old itachi > 8 yr old sasuke ). When Itachi's effort went to 0 and Sasuke's went to 200, Sasuke beat out Itachi. All the evidance points to Itachi having more potential.
> 
> In other words like I said, Sasuke had motivation to train, Itachi had motivation to stay stagnant. That's consistently reflected in the plot where Sasuke did nothing but try his hardest to kill Itachi, while itachi did nothing by try his hardest to get killed by sasuke.
> 
> But when Itachi puts a little effort in he shows vastly more genius than Sasuke ( 8 year old fire ball jutsu ).



This post now acknowledges that Sasuke surpassed Itachi’s peak at a younger age, and pretty much tries to justify it with fan fiction. Nobody ever said Itachi stopped training, and even if he did work ethic is a part of potential.


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## Bookworm (Feb 1, 2018)

Shark said:


> According to Tobi, Itachi was lying.


Tobi never said that Itachi was lying about being able to become stronger than Madara


Shark said:


> Because Bee and Naruto are on a higher level in general than Yagura.
> 
> The ability to hypnotize is not like any other genjutsu, you're literally controlling the the person's actions.


I don't see why you're implying hypnotism would be different to break for a perfect Jinchuuriki. It shouldn't matter if Bee or Naruto were on higher level generally than Yagura. It's the Bijuu that breaks them out. In that regard they should be no different.


Shark said:


> What do you mean? Kakashi isn't an Uchiha.
> 
> Tsunade also cancelled the effects of Tsukiyomi.


Kakashi said "if you're caught by his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly it has nothing to do with whether or not you can defeat genjutsu."


Shark said:


> How could a clash of the same jutsu happen in the first place if one of the casters is incapable of reading the other's hand seals?


If Itachi read Sasuke's handseals it could happen. Besides it's a fact that Sasuke didn't see Itachi use the handseals for KB


Shark said:


> To point out that huge chakra capacity does not necessarily = Chakra control or jutsu mastery/talent.


Itachi still had large chakra for a genin as a academy student.


Shark said:


> True, but it does make the reserves argument less significant.


How so?


Shark said:


> False.
> 
> The size of the jutsu is not related to the stamina of the user unless that is an actual property of the Jutsu (like Yomi Numa).
> 
> Madara used a bigger katon because he has that technique and Itachi doesn't.


I edited my post after you replied, having larger chakra reserves means that Madara _can_ use larger scale jutsu and that it's viable for him as well.


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## Bookworm (Feb 1, 2018)

Shark said:


> It's reaching.



How's it reaching?


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## 1yesman9 (Feb 1, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> And pointing out low level abilities they learned at eight doesn’t reflect potential.



Why wouldn't it exactly? That isn't obvious to me at all. In my memory Kishi frequently talks about how ninja were in their youth to say stuff about potential ( Minato, Kakashi, Sasori ). Remember when Kakashi fawned over Sasuke's usage of fireball when he was a genin?



Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Sasuke created those Chidori variants. Itachi had 21 years to invent his own jutsu and never did.



Minus all the crow jutsu. Either way it's not relevant because they had different effort levels.



Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> This post now acknowledges that Sasuke surpassed Itachi’s peak at a younger age, and pretty much tries to justify it with fan fiction. Nobody ever said Itachi stopped training, and even if he did work ethic is a part of potential.



Your post is inductive to the point where it's 99% likely to be wrong. If a logical leap is really likely and heavily implied, then it's ok to make it.

We had tons of panels of Sasuke training to kill Itachi, explicitly calling it his only goal, Kabuto implying that he was ocd to the point where he'd seek out options that increased his likelihood of success by only 1%.

We have tons of info to suggest that Itachi's only goals was to die to Sasuke and make him stronger.

So it's not hard to say that: Sasuke's effort > Itachi's effort. Which ruins the comparison.

If you wanna use the term "natural potential" to mean something that includes effort, then fine. Usually when people say potential or capacity they're describing how high something can get not including time & effort.

My point is if Itachi put out the same effort as Sasuke (-indra) he'd be stronger. This is evidenced because anytime Itachi has put the same effort as Sasuke, at the same age, he's done better.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Feb 1, 2018)

1yesman9 said:


> Why wouldn't it exactly? That isn't obvious to me at all. In my memory Kishi frequently talks about how ninja were in their youth to say stuff about potential ( Minato, Kakashi, Sasori ). Remember when Kakashi fawned over Sasuke's usage of fireball when he was a genin?



Exactly. All of those Ninja were vastly superior to Naruto and Sasuke at the same age, but like Itachi they were fodder to Naruto and Sasuke by their late teens. 



> Minus all the crow jutsu. Either way it's not relevant because they had different effort levels.



It’s very relevant. Outside of the Sharingan related Jutsu that Sasuke could also access, 21 year old Itachi’s arsenal is made up of low level techniques that are on par with the median Jonin. 16 year old Sasuke meanwhile invented an S ranked Jutsu and three A ranked Jutsu and could command a giant summon. 21 year old Itachi is just a Jonin to upper Jonin level Ninja without his Sharingan, while 16 year old Sasuke is still Kage level without his Sharingan. 




> Your post is inductive to the point where it's 99% likely to be wrong. If a logical leap is really likely and heavily implied, then it's ok to make it.
> 
> We had tons of panels of Sasuke training to kill Itachi, explicitly calling it his only goal, Kabuto implying that he was ocd to the point where he'd seek out options that increased his likelihood of success by only 1%.
> 
> ...



Itachi wanted to stop the Akatsuki and you think he randomly stopped training for a third of his life without a single panel or statement that indicated that he stopped? Once again, you are grasping at straws to try and defend Itachi’s potential in face of the reality that 16 year old Sasuke equaled or surpassed 21 year old Itachi and reduced Itachi to fodder by the time Sasuke was 17. 



> If you wanna use the term "natural potential" to mean something that includes effort, then fine. Usually when people say potential or capacity they're describing how high something can get not including time & effort.



Even if 16 year old Sasuke only surpassed 21 year old Itachi due to work ethic, work ethnic is considered its own type of genius in Naruto.




> My point is if Itachi put out the same effort as Sasuke (-indra) he'd be stronger. This is evidenced because anytime Itachi has put the same effort as Sasuke, at the same age, he's done better.



It isn’t just the future Rikudo Chakra Sasuke gets that separates their potential.

Sasuke as a 16 year year old could already use the MS with less strain than 18 year old Itachi.

A younger Sasuke already had more chakra than Itachi. 

Sasuke has a stronger body that could potentially learn Sage Mode one day while Itachi could not.

Sasuke survived the Curse Seal while 90% die, making it unlikely that someone with a weak body like Itachi could survive.

Sasuke has the chakra to summon a giant snake without much of an issue, and could potentially get a snake army one day like Orochimaru.

Sasuke invented three A ranked Jutsu and one S ranked Jutsu in a three year stretch.


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## 1yesman9 (Feb 1, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Exactly. All of those Ninja were vastly superior to Naruto and Sasuke at the same age, but like Itachi they were fodder to Naruto and Sasuke by their late teens...



Eh, I agree now. I didn't consider that Sasuke & Naruto are portrayed to have latent potential, and Orochimaru's "Your eyes may even be sharper than Itachi's".

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Feb 1, 2018)

1yesman9 said:


> Eh, I agree now. I didn't consider that Sasuke & Naruto are portrayed to have latent potential, and Orochimaru's "Your eyes may even be sharper than Itachi's".


Wow, I don’t think I have ever had someone stop a debate to agree with me.


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## Kisame (Feb 1, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Tobi never said that Itachi was lying about being able to become stronger than Madara


Link removed

Please read this page again and tell me Itachi's speech is your only basis for Itachi surpassing Madara.

We have other characters stating that Sasuke "might be able to surpass Madara", as if he's the only Uchiha to have the potential to do so. 


> I don't see why you're implying hypnotism would be different to break for a perfect Jinchuuriki. It shouldn't matter if Bee or Naruto were on higher level generally than Yagura. It's the Bijuu that breaks them out. In that regard they should be no different.


My point is this: The *level *of the person who the caster attempts to use genjutsu on is what makes the difference.

In the Naruto word you have normal citizens (like the female Itachi controlled), then you have shinobi of various levels; genin, chunin, jonin, and kage-level shinobi.

Itachi cannot hypnotize someone like say, Kakashi or Kisame regardless of their skill in genjutsu. Why? Because they are on a much higher level than the woman is. If he could hypnotize them that literally means he can *control them like puppets*. The same is true for Sasuke, he was skilled in genjutsu, had sharingan, and was a very high level shinobi. So it is not feasible to suggest Itachi hypnotized him.

As for the jinchuriki, my point was that Tobi is the only person who was shown to hypnotize someone worth mentioning like Yagura with genjutsu, not Itachi. Bee and Naruto are of a higher level like I explained before.



> Kakashi said "if you're caught by his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly it has nothing to do with whether or not you can defeat genjutsu."


And the way to break out/counter this genjutsu is by having sharingan, Uchiha blood and genjutsu proficiency.


> If Itachi read Sasuke's handseals it could happen. Besides it's a fact that Sasuke didn't see Itachi use the handseals for KB


That was inside a genjutsu, it wasn't real. Regardless, Itachi does have fast handseals but not to the point that it made any difference in his fight with Itachi. Why? If it did how could Sasuke react to his speed and use Gokakyu too?


> Itachi still had large chakra for a genin as a academy student.


And it seems like he never outgrew it. :shrug


> How so?


The fact of the matter is that there is more than one factor when it comes to learning jutsu: 1. Chakra control/talent 2. enough chakra to use the jutsu

We know Itachi was not the type to have a lot of stamina, so logically the other factors would make more of a difference.


> I edited my post after you replied, having larger chakra reserves means that Madara _can_ use larger scale jutsu and that it's viable for him as well.


In order to use large scale jutsu you need:
1. To actually learn the jutsu and have it in your arsenal.
2. Have enough chakra to use it.

3 tomoe Madara is not only superior to 3 tomoe Itachi in terms of chakra capacity like you said, because he also has stronger Katon and bigger jutsu (Katon in this case).

if we gave Itachi the Kyubi's chakra he would still not be able to replicate Madara's feat. It's not only stamina he's lacking in this case, but also ninjutsu proficiency.

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## Bookworm (Feb 1, 2018)

Shark said:


> dodging Bee's Raiton pencil while charging Sabu
> 
> Please read this page again and tell me Itachi's speech is your only basis for Itachi surpassing Madara.
> 
> We have other characters stating that Sasuke "might be able to surpass Madara", as if he's the only Uchiha to have the potential to do so.


Why did you link that page? Sasuke was going to surpass, due to his eyes, if Itachi obtained EMS through Sasuke's eyes than he would have his eye power.


Shark said:


> My point is this: The *level *of the person who the caster attempts to use genjutsu on is what makes the difference.
> 
> In the Naruto word you have normal citizens (like the female Itachi controlled), then you have shinobi of various levels; genin, chunin, jonin, and kage-level shinobi.
> 
> ...



Are you saying even if you can put someone in a genjutsu, you can't hypnotize them because their strong ninja? Itachi has hypnotized a high kage level ninja before, SM Kabuto. That's like saying it's not feasible for Shisui or Danzo to hypnotize Sasuke, with koto, because Sasuke is a high level shinobi, with the sharingan. Also Itachi was more skilled in genjutsu, had a MS, and was higher level shinobi, so I don't see why he couldn't have.


Shark said:


> That was inside a genjutsu, it wasn't real. Regardless, Itachi does have fast handseals but not to the point that it made any difference in his fight with Itachi. Why? If it did how could Sasuke react to his speed and use Gokakyu too?



That part of the fight was real, as it happened during the shuriken throwing contest and the shuriken are on the ground. Unless Itachi was the one doing the reacting...


Shark said:


> And it seems like he never outgrew it. :shrug


So Itachi had level genin level chakra reserves as a Akatsuki?


Shark said:


> The fact of the matter is that there is more than one factor when it comes to learning jutsu: 1. Chakra control/talent 2. enough chakra to use the jutsu
> 
> We know Itachi was not the type to have a lot of stamina, so logically the other factors would make more of a difference.


Unless his chakra control made up for not supposedly having enough chakra to use Gokakyu, I don't see why it matters.


Shark said:


> In order to use large scale jutsu you need:
> 1. To actually learn the jutsu and have it in your arsenal.
> 2. Have enough chakra to use it.
> 
> ...



What makes you say he lacking ninjutsu proficiency? He can use A rank ninjutsu and with great proficiency.


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## MSAL (Feb 2, 2018)

Shark said:


> Itachi cannot hypnotize someone like say, Kakashi or Kisame regardless of their skill in genjutsu. Why? Because they are on a much higher level than the woman is. If he could hypnotize them that literally means he can *control them like puppets*. The same is true for Sasuke, he was skilled in genjutsu, had sharingan, and was a very high level shinobi. So it is not feasible to suggest Itachi hypnotized him.



Yes he can, via Tsukuyomi. He already has done against SM Kabuto.

The eye of hypnotism is a base ability of the Sharingan. Of course it depends upon the user, but to say Itachi can't do it against trained shinobi is nonsense. For starters, Itachi had more mastery/latent ability with his base Sharingan than Sasuke did. This is seen by the fact he was only one of three canon Uchiha to first activate their Sharingan with 2-tomoe + (the others were Obito and Hagoromo).


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## Bookworm (Feb 12, 2018)

jnikools said:


> Minato had higher potential



Nope Itachi did.

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## Jinnobi (Feb 12, 2018)

I'm fairly certain that Masashi Kishimoto intended to portray Itachi as "on another level" of power and potential - yet he curtailed his power out of compassion and consideration for others, and gave up his potential out of love for Sasuke. One would write a small article on how many times characters in the manga have hyped Itachi one way or another; expound on the potency and thus the implications of Totsuka Sword, Yata Mirror, Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi/Susanno, Itachi's intellect, his extreme baseline skill (even with simply techniques) including basic genjutsu and clones; the power-related hype of Zetsu; his tenancy to never go all-out -- and the times he nearly did, his opponents (including Pein and Orochimaru) were instantly defeated; his option of himself ("only one with the same blood as me can possibly defeat me / I believed I was unstoppable (power-wise) / Once I get EMS all will submit"); the fact that Pein and Tobi waited until Itachi was dead to start their plans; and the strong inference that whenever Itachi seemed to be hurt or need help, he was ultimately just teaching his companions a lesson in virtue or holding back to accomplish a goal. 

It's always been my opinion that Kishi wanted us to think of Itachi as a merciful "demigod" - the fact that he said "Itachi is too perfect" seems to confirm that belief. But there will always be people who dislike Itachi for one reason or another, and to those people, picking up on nuance or registering subtle implications is a hopeless task. Those kind of people want to interpret circumstance in the worst possible light, and take everything at face value (as in fan opinion of Mace Windu vs Sidious: although there is every inference and every reason to believe that Sidious was manipulating the situation and thew the fight, there will always be a contingeant who hate Sidious / love Mace Windu, and interpret the fight at face value, claiming Windu legitimately won -- which causes all kinds of contradictions and issues and flies in the face of reasoning and logic, but it doesn't matter to them; even what makes a good story is tossed aside for a bad story.) 

So yeah, I believe that Itachi was the strongest character in the Naruto manga - and there is plenty of evidence to support that. But there will be people who can't or don't want to see it, and there is enough room for doubt for their opinion to still exist.

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## Kisame (Feb 12, 2018)

MSAL said:


> Yes he can, via Tsukuyomi. He already has done against SM Kabuto.
> 
> The eye of hypnotism is a base ability of the Sharingan. Of course it depends upon the user, but to say Itachi can't do it against trained shinobi is nonsense. For starters, Itachi had more mastery/latent ability with his base Sharingan than Sasuke did. This is seen by the fact he was only one of three canon Uchiha to first activate their Sharingan with 2-tomoe + (the others were Obito and Hagoromo).


Yes when the opponent is beaten/incapacitated/tired, kind of like how Tobi did vs Konan at the end of their fight.

I'm saying that if in a vs match between Itachi and say, Jiraiya or Kakashi for example, he cannot *control them like puppets*. He can to a certain degree once they're out of steam but not during the fight.


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## Kisame (Feb 12, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Why did you link that page? Sasuke was going to surpass, due to his eyes, if Itachi obtained EMS through Sasuke's eyes than he would have his eye power.


There is no evidence Sasuke's potential was because of Itachi's eyes.


> Are you saying even if you can put someone in a genjutsu, you can't hypnotize them because their strong ninja? Itachi has hypnotized a high kage level ninja before, SM Kabuto. That's like saying it's not feasible for Shisui or Danzo to hypnotize Sasuke, with koto, because Sasuke is a high level shinobi, with the sharingan. Also Itachi was more skilled in genjutsu, had a MS, and was higher level shinobi, so I don't see why he couldn't have.


Koto is different.

He can to an extent if the enemy is down, like Tobi did to Konan at the end of their fight, not during an active fight with a high-level shinobi. he can one-shot them with Tsukiyomi yes, but not control them like he did that woman or hypnotize them.


> That part of the fight was real, as it happened during the shuriken throwing contest and the shuriken are on the ground. Unless Itachi was the one doing the reacting...


I just looked it up, you're right.

Regardless, Itachi does have fast handseals but not to the point that it made any difference in his fight with Sasuke. Why? If it did how could Sasuke react to his speed and use Gokakyu too?


> So Itachi had level genin level chakra reserves as a Akatsuki?


That was an exaggeration. The point is Itachi had low chakra reserves in his Akatsuki days.


> Unless his chakra control made up for not supposedly having enough chakra to use Gokakyu, I don't see why it matters.


Of course it did, unless Gokakyu doesn't cost much chakra in the first place. 


> What makes you say he lacking ninjutsu proficiency? He can use A rank ninjutsu and with great proficiency.


Re-read what I wrote. He lacks the proficiency to use Madara's Katon jutsu.


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## Bookworm (Feb 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> There is no evidence Sasuke's potential was because of Itachi's eyes.


It does have something to do with it, considering that's the only way to achieve EMS


Shark said:


> Koto is different.
> 
> He can to an extent if the enemy is down, like Tobi did to Konan at the end of their fight, not during an active fight with a high-level shinobi. he can one-shot them with Tsukiyomi yes, but not control them like he did that woman or hypnotize them.



Why is koto different? it's a hypnotic genjutsu just like Tsukuyomi.


Shark said:


> I just looked it up, you're right.
> 
> Regardless, Itachi does have fast handseals but not to the point that it made any difference in his fight with Sasuke. Why? If it did how could Sasuke react to his speed and use Gokakyu too?



Itachi could of slowed it down, he was holding back. I mean why did Itachi use handseals with Amaterasu? same reason he was holding back.


Shark said:


> Of course it did, unless Gokakyu doesn't cost much chakra in the first place.


It cost a lot for a genin, let alone an academy student.


Shark said:


> Re-read what I wrote. He lacks the proficiency to use Madara's Katon jutsu.


How does he lack the proficiency to use it? He has an affinity for katon and he has to have high chakra control due to being a master of genjutsu. What else does he need to be able to use it?


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## MSAL (Feb 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> Yes when the opponent is beaten/incapacitated/tired, kind of like how Tobi did vs Konan at the end of their fight.



Well Ao and Nara produced sweat beads when they initially associated Itachi with the Zetsu spores. I'd say the people in camp were plenty rested and not tired.



> [I'm saying that if in a vs match between Itachi and say, Jiraiya or Kakashi for example, he cannot *control them like puppets*. He can to a certain degree once they're out of steam but not during the fight.



Not provable. We would be getting into No Limits Fallacy territory. We can only surmise from what we know, and we know the Sharingan has the ability to control people, and we know Itachi has done this. It can't be proven either way, but there is more support for my stance.

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## ThomasTheCat (Feb 12, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Why is koto different? it's a hypnotic genjutsu just like Tsukuyomi.



That's like saying because Naruto in P1 was using the same Rasengan that Minato used, Minato's Rasengan must only be as powerful as P1 Naruto's.

Koto is hypnotic Genjutsu, yes, but it's on a very high level. It has this stupid multi-year use limitation, and Shisui felt that it was a pretty safe bet to use it on the entire Uchiha clan. You know, the guys that have eyes that can see through that type of stuff. Koto is obviously a high tier of Genjutsu.


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## Bookworm (Feb 12, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> That's like saying because Naruto in P1 was using the same Rasengan that Minato used, Minato's Rasengan must only be as powerful as P1 Naruto's.
> 
> Koto is hypnotic Genjutsu, yes, but it's on a very high level. It has this stupid multi-year use limitation, and Shisui felt that it was a pretty safe bet to use it on the entire Uchiha clan. You know, the guys that have eyes that can see through that type of stuff. Koto is obviously a high tier of Genjutsu.



Tsukuyomi is also a very high level hypnotic genjutsu. What about Kage level ninja makes them unable to be hypnotized?


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## Kisame (Feb 12, 2018)

MSAL said:


> Well Ao and Nara produced sweat beads when they initially associated Itachi with the Zetsu spores. I'd say the people in camp were plenty rested and not tired.
> 
> 
> 
> Not provable. We would be getting into No Limits Fallacy territory. We can only surmise from what we know, and we know the Sharingan has the ability to control people, and we know Itachi has done this. It can't be proven either way, but there is more support for my stance.


So you're saying in a vs between Itachi and Kakashi, Itachi can control Kakashi like a puppet?


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## ThomasTheCat (Feb 12, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Tsukuyomi is also a very high level hypnotic genjutsu. What about Kage level ninja makes them unable to be hypnotized?



I was just jumping in for that little piece, I'm sort of half and half for this arguement.


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## Kisame (Feb 12, 2018)

Trolling said:


> It does have something to do with it, considering that's the only way to achieve EMS


The hype was for Sasuke to surpass Madara, Itachi's eyes were only conveniently there for all we know.


> Why is koto different? it's a hypnotic genjutsu just like Tsukuyomi.


Why is Koto different than Tsukiyomi? Well for one, it is more potent and broke Itachi out of Edo Tensei. 



> Itachi could of slowed it down, he was holding back. I mean why did Itachi use handseals with Amaterasu? same reason he was holding back.


No evidence of either statement.


> It cost a lot for a genin, let alone an academy student.


Then his chakra control/talent for jutsu made up for it. 


> How does he lack the proficiency to use it? He has an affinity for katon and he has to have high chakra control due to being a master of genjutsu. *What else does he need to be able to use it?*


He needs to actually *learn the jutsu itself*.


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## Bookworm (Feb 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> The hype was for Sasuke to surpass Madara, Itachi's eyes were only conveniently there for all we know.


Sasuke wouldn't have surpassed Madara at all, if it wasn't for Itachi's eyes, because he would be blind.


Shark said:


> Why is Koto different than Tsukiyomi? Well for one, it is more potent and broke Itachi out of Edo Tensei.


So basically if a hypnotic genjutsu is strong enough it can hypnotize kage level opponents?


Shark said:


> No evidence of either statement.


Than let me ask you, why did Itachi use handseals with Amaterasu? Why was Sasuke not able to see Itachi use the KB handseals when he made it?


Shark said:


> Then his chakra control/talent for jutsu made up for it.


Chakra control doesn't make a jutsu cost less than the minimum.


Shark said:


> He needs to actually *learn the jutsu itself*.


So you're saying he just hasn't learn the jutsu, not that he can't?


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## Kisame (Feb 12, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Sasuke wouldn't have surpassed Madara at all, if it wasn't for Itachi's eyes, because he would be blind.


He wouldn't have surpassed him if he didn't gain EMS, Itachi being the one giving him that doesn't mean Itachi had better potential.


> So basically if a hypnotic genjutsu is strong enough it can hypnotize kage level opponents?


If it's as strong as Koto than yes.


> Than let me ask you, why did Itachi use handseals with Amaterasu? Why was Sasuke not able to see Itachi use the KB handseals when he made it?


Whatever answer you think would help your case; there is no evidence to support it.


> Chakra control doesn't make a jutsu cost less than the minimum.


That's not necessarily true.

The talent/chakra control needed might also be a reason why learning the jutsu for a genin-level is so impressive.


> So you're saying he just hasn't learn the jutsu, not that he can't?


I don't know if he can or can't learn it in the future, maybe he can learn it in a day, maybe in a year who knows.

But in his lifetime/prime he hasn't displayed the proficiency to use that particular technique.


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## Bookworm (Feb 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> He wouldn't have surpassed him if he didn't gain EMS, Itachi being the one giving him that doesn't mean Itachi had better potential.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was never said that Sasuke has greater potential overall than Itachi. Just that his eyes could become greater. 


Shark said:


> If it's as strong as Koto than yes.


Itachi announced to Kabuto he was going to control him with Tsukuyomi before they even fought, so he had confidence he could do it. Kabuto was a kage level ninja


Shark said:


> That's not necessarily true.
> 
> The talent/chakra control needed might also be a reason why learning the jutsu for a genin-level is so impressive.


Can you think of a case where someone has used less chakra than the minimum?


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## Kisame (Feb 12, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was never said that Sasuke has greater potential overall than Itachi. Just that his eyes could become greater.


For Uchiha "eyes" and "strength" are almost synonymous.


> Itachi announced to Kabuto he was going to control him with Tsukuyomi before they even fought, so he had confidence he could do it. Kabuto was a kage level ninja


And he did, once Kabuto was weakened.


> Can you think of a case where someone has used less chakra than the minimum?


That's besides the point.


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## Bookworm (Feb 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> For Uchiha "eyes" and "strength" are almost synonymous.


If Itachi obtained EMS from Sasuke's eyes he would have Sasuke eye power.


Shark said:


> And he did, once Kabuto was weakened.


He announced that before he even had any intent to use Izanami, as he didn't know he would have to use it. He told Sasuke that before Kabuto shut his eyes off.


Shark said:


> That's besides the point.


Where are you getting the idea that a ninja decrease the chakra cost of a jutsu beyond the minimum?


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## Kisame (Feb 12, 2018)

Trolling said:


> If Itachi obtained EMS from Sasuke's eyes he would have Sasuke eye power.


And?


> He announced that before he even had any intent to use Izanami, as he didn't know he would have to use it. He told Sasuke that before Kabuto shut his eyes off.


He announced that after he had the intent to *beat Kabuto without killing him*.


> Where are you getting the idea that a ninja decrease the chakra cost of a jutsu beyond the minimum?


The talent/chakra control needed might also be a reason why learning the jutsu for a genin-level is so impressive.


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## Bookworm (Feb 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> And?


You said this "For Uchiha 'eyes' and 'strength' are almost synonymous." If Sasuke got Itachi's eyes it would be like this according to what you said: Sasuke = Sasuke's eye power + Itachi's eye power. If it was Itachi who gained EMS it would be like this according to your statement: Itachi = Itachi's eye power + Sasuke's eye power



Shark said:


> He announced that after he had the intent to *beat Kabuto without killing him*.


Yes, because he intended to control Kabuto,with Tsukuyomi
and without Izanami, at the beginning.​


Shark said:


> The talent/chakra control needed might also be a reason why learning the jutsu for a genin-level is so impressive.


Kakashi didn't hint at that.


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## Baroxio (Feb 12, 2018)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Itachi's potential is nothing impressive if you take out his MS Hax.
> 
> Itachi needing those Hax to stay in game means that he is not as special as his fans makes him out.



Itachi's skill in genjutsu alone is already world class, even without the use of Sharingan. It took not one, but TWO medical ninjas to get Naruto out of 30% Shoten Itachi's non-Sharingan Ephemeral genjutsu. People like to call it weak, but there's literally no proof of that being the case.

Even if we ignore genjutsu completely however, Itachi still has the physical stats to tango with Perfect Jinchurikis and Perfect Sages in Close Quarters Combat. That's not something most people in the Naruto universe can do. 

Even more frightening, however, is Itachi's jutsu execution speed. On multiple occasions, Itachi has switched himself with a clone in full view of his opponent. These opponents include Perfect Sages and Sharingan users, yet despite their enhanced senses, none of them were able to perceive such a switch take place. 

Then there's Itachi's unparalleled insight. Figuring out Nagato's shared vision and bypassing it with basic kunai, figuring out the weakness of Chibaku Tensei while caught in its gravitational pull, figuring out how to escape from Kabuto's Mugen Onsa genjutsu before he could capitalize, and who could forget the fact that he planned every condition in his fight with Sasuke? These things show how Itachi is capable of not just reading and pre-empting techniques, but reading and pre-empting people as well. 

I like to think of Itachi as a shinobi with peerless mastery over the basics. Like how everyone can throw a Kunai, but only Itachi can curve them into the blind spots of shared vision. Effectively, I believe that Itachi's base abilities (i.e. w/o MS)  is enough to make him one of the strongest ninja of his generation. The extra hax provided by Mangekyou Sharingan is just gravy.

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## Blu-ray (Feb 12, 2018)

Trolling said:


> and may have had the potential to surpass Madara.


The manga was clear that the only Uchiha with such potential was Sasuke, and drove it home with the Indra transmigrant nonsense.



Trolling said:


> The pattern Sasuke notices is that Itachi has a habit, when Itachi says "Sasuke, you've gotten stronger", Sasuke is in a genjutsu. So what's the point of me saying this? It's what Itachi says after he blocked Kirin with Susanoo: "You really have gotten stronger Sasuke." What I'm getting at is Sasuke was still in genjutsu, when Susanoo blocked Kirin


When he says Sasuke has gotten stronger, he means just that. Anything more is just you reading into something that just isn't there. If Sasuke was under genjutsu at that point, the manga would've told us that he was.

Absolutely nothing was falsified in that moment either, since Kirin and Susano'o blocking it clearly were not genjutsu if Kakashi and his squad could see the aftermath.


Trolling said:


> You might be thinking that's impossible,


Probably was considering that Itachi couldn't even see out of his eyes at that point.


> if Tsukuyomi actually couldn't be broken by 3 Tomoe would Itachi actually tell Kakashi that? Itachi wanted to make it believable that he was killed by Sasuke, if Tsukuyomi couldn't be broken by Sasuke, that would cast doubt on Sasuke's ability to beat him.


This reasoning only makes sense if people

had the preconceived notion that Tsukuyomi was this unbreakable, invincible technique
knew Itachi had Tsukuyomi to begin with
But neither of those things are true. No one knew anything about Tsukuyomi or that he even had it, so lying about its mechanics serves no purpose. People can't doubt Sasuke people Tsukuyomi if they don't even know anything about it in the first place.



> The second thing to keep in mind is Itachi is a liar, as I mentioned above Itachi had reason to lie.


He had no reason to lie about this however. He wasn't a pathological liar who only ever said the opposite of what he meant, but one who deceived under a certain context.



Trolling said:


> Even when he was in the academy Sasuke could use Gokakyuu, but he had to train to use Gokakyuu, he couldn't get it on the first try. Fugaku mentioned that it was different with Itachi, this implies that one, Itachi was able to use Gokakyuu at a similar age and two, on the first try. All of this means Itachi chakra capacity was large for an academy student, even larger than Sasuke's was, because he didn't need to train to use Gokayuu


Sasuke's inability to use Gokakyu on the first try was a matter of skill and chakra control, not a matter of chakra reserves. Naruto couldn't use so much as basic clone jutsu properly yet had more chakra than anyone in the village.



Trolling said:


> With Sasuke's eyes he would also gain, Sasuke's eye power,


Or he'd just trade one set of blind eyes for another. So far the transplant has only been successful among Indra transmigrants despite countless attempts, and even then he'd be limited by what his chakra allows, eternal Mangekyo or not..

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## Bookworm (Feb 12, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> The manga was clear that the only Uchiha with such potential was Sasuke, and drove it home with the Indra transmigrant nonsense.


Being an Indra Transmigrant didn't provide Sasuke with anything special. Madara was also an Indra transmigrant.


Blu-ray said:


> This reasoning only makes sense if people
> 
> had the preconceived notion that Tsukuyomi was this unbreakable, invincible technique
> knew Itachi had Tsukuyomi to begin with
> But neither of those things are true. No one knew anything about Tsukuyomi or that he even had it, so lying about its mechanics serves no purpose. People can't doubt Sasuke people Tsukuyomi if they don't even know anything about it in the first place.


Danzo knew about Tsukuyomi, it appears Kakashi did as well. Just the mention of Itachi's MS invoked such a powerful and fearful response in Kakashi. He was sweating profusely and he knew would be take out instantly. So, obviously he knew Itachi had a powerful MS genjutsu. He didn't have to know it was named Tsukuyomi or the exact details. Besides since Kakashi experienced Tsukuyomi right afterwards, it wouldn't matter even if we assume he no clue about Tsukuyomi. He would know what Tsukuyomi did from what he experienced and what Asuma said.




Blu-ray said:


> When he says Sasuke has gotten stronger, he means just that. Anything more is just you reading into something that just isn't there. If Sasuke was under genjutsu at that point, the manga would've told us that he was.
> 
> Absolutely nothing was falsified in that moment either, since Kirin and Susano'o blocking it clearly were not genjutsu if Kakashi and his squad could see the aftermath.



The manga didn't tell us why Sakura was in love with Sasuke, how Hashirama died, when Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, what sickness Itachi had or why Tobi was in the hidden Mist and took control of Yagura. It's not like the manga tells us everything. 



Blu-ray said:


> Probably was considering that Itachi couldn't even see out of his eyes at that point.



Itachi could of casted before his eyes went blind.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 12, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Being an Indra Transmigrant didn't provide Sasuke with anything special.


As far as we know Choku Tomoe (whatever it entails) is exclusive to Indra Transmigrants, and they're the only Uchiha that had a successful EMS transplant.



> Madara was also an Indra transmigrant.


Which was my point? Only another transmigrant could potentially surpass him 



> Danzo knew about Tsukuyomi


Danzo also knew the truth about Itachi. He wasn't apart of the masses Itachi wanted or needed to trick into believing Sasuke killed him.



> it appears Kakashi did as well


He only knew something powerful was coming, not what that powerful something was.



> Besides since Kakashi experienced Tsukuyomi right afterwards, it wouldn't matter even if we assume he no clue about Tsukuyomi. He would know what Tsukuyomi did from what he experienced and what Asuma said.


He wouldn't have reason to believe that Sasuke couldn't defeat it just because he couldn't though.



> The didn't tell us why Sakura was in love with Sasuke, how Hashirama died, when Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke or why Tobi was in the hidden Mist and took control of Yagura. It's not like the manga tells us everything.


It didn't tell us _how _those things happened, but it did tell us _that they happened._


> Itachi could of casted before his eyes went blind.


He could have, but unless the manga said he did we have no reason to assume so.

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## Bookworm (Feb 13, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> As far as we know Choku Tomoe (whatever it entails) is exclusive to Indra Transmigrants, and they're the only Uchiha that had a successful EMS transplant.


It's possible, but nothing indicates it.


Blu-ray said:


> He only knew something powerful was coming, not what that powerful something was.


He knew it was a powerful genjutsu, that's why he closed his non-sharingan eye and told Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes.


Blu-ray said:


> He wouldn't have reason to believe that Sasuke couldn't defeat it just because he couldn't though.


Kakashi knew that Itachi's MS was much more powerful than his own and he didn't know that Sasuke could achieve MS. Unless Kakashi thinks that Sasuke's regular sharingan could become much more powerful than his own, he would have reason to doubt Sasuke could break it. Besides Kakashi said that "If your caught by his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly, it has nothing to defeat genjutsu or not (regarding Tsukuyomi)." Indicating he believed that it doesn't matter if you can beat genjutsu at all, when it comes to Tsukuyomi.


Blu-ray said:


> It didn't tell us _how _those things happened, but it did tell us _that they happened._


The Manga didn't tell us anything about what happened to the Senju clan.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 13, 2018)

Trolling said:


> It's possible, but nothing indicates it.


Pretty sure the only two to achieve both being Indra incarnates is indication enough, especially when that connection was highlighted.



> He knew it was a powerful genjutsu, that's why he closed his non-sharingan eye and told Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes.


The common sense response since even 3T can cast genjutsu. He probably just expected a more potent version of that (which Tsukuyomi technically is.)



> Kakashi knew that Itachi's MS was much more powerful than his own


Kakashi didn't even know that he himself had MS at that point.



> and he didn't know that Sasuke could achieve MS


All the more reason why the notion that Itachi would lie to Kakashi about such a thing makes no sense. Kakashi knows nothing about what either brother is truly capable of.



> Unless Kakashi thinks that Sasuke's regular sharingan could become much more powerful than his own


Why would Kakashi think differently? Regardless of what Itachi said to him about what can and can't beat Tsukuyomi, Kakashi knows Sasuke is an Uchiha and that his eyes would inevitably surpass his power.

And they did since Sasuke with 3T could even suppress the Kyuubi, something Kakashi could not do with Mangekyo and instead needed Jiraiya's seal for.



> he would have reason to doubt Sasuke could break it.


Because he himself couldn't? Like I said. Kakashi knows better than to limit what Sasuke, an Uchiha can do with Sharingan, by what he who isn't an Uchiha can do. If anything, he'd think Sasuke capable of the same feats as Itachi.



> Besides Kakashi said that "If your caught by his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly, it has nothing to defeat genjutsu or not (regarding Tsukuyomi)." Indicating he believed that it doesn't matter if you can beat genjutsu at all, when it comes to Tsukuyomi.


Said to people that weren't Uchiha with Sharingan.



> The Manga didn't tell us anything about what happened to the Senju clan.


Who says something happened to them to begin with? Plus is reaching and you know it. If Sasuke was under genjutsu, we'd know it. Just like how we knew he was under Tsukuyomi.


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## MSAL (Feb 13, 2018)

Shark said:


> So you're saying in a vs between Itachi and Kakashi, Itachi can control Kakashi like a puppet?



You're trying to spin it like it's a "dirty" suggestion.

It may be useless in a 1v1 scenario, but we have seen Itachi demonstrate the ability against the female civilian, against Naruto - making him leave his, until interrupted by Sasuke and against Kabuto, to unlock Edo Tensei. Not to mention that as the Zetsu clones were penetrating the camps, and causing all sorts of chaos and misdirection, two intelligent people, one of them being a top sensor, implied Itachi could *control *multiple people from long distance with genjutsu.

You are just using the notion that Kakashi is a main character and at a reasonable power level to conclude it wouldn't work on him, though there there is nothing to prove that Itachi couldn't say, perhaps use a trick like that to say have Kakashi drop his guard momentarily.

Like I said though, the application of this side of the Sharingan is unpractical in combat, when he can use other forms of genjutsu to misdirect or catch people off guard. *Doesn't mean he can't do it *though, especially when he demonstrated that side of the Sharingan on different occasions.


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## Kisame (Feb 13, 2018)

Trolling said:


> You said this "For Uchiha 'eyes' and 'strength' are almost synonymous." If Sasuke got Itachi's eyes it would be like this according to what you said: Sasuke = Sasuke's eye power + Itachi's eye power. If it was Itachi who gained EMS it would be like this according to your statement: Itachi = Itachi's eye power + Sasuke's eye power


The power would be equal but the potential would not.


> Yes, because he intended to control Kabuto,with Tsukuyomi
> and without Izanami, at the beginning.​


​He intended to use Tsukiyomi after he beat him.


> Kakashi didn't hint at that.


?


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## Kisame (Feb 13, 2018)

MSAL said:


> You're trying to spin it like it's a "dirty" suggestion.
> 
> It may be useless in a 1v1 scenario, but we have seen Itachi demonstrate the ability against the female civilian, against Naruto - making him leave his, until interrupted by Sasuke and against Kabuto, to unlock Edo Tensei. Not to mention that as the Zetsu clones were penetrating the camps, and causing all sorts of chaos and misdirection, two intelligent people, one of them being a top sensor, implied Itachi could *control *multiple people from long distance with genjutsu.
> 
> ...


That was always my point, not denying Itachi _can_ do it (because he _has_ done it and we're told he can do it anyway), just that in a battledome situation it's impractical against high tiers.


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## Bookworm (Feb 13, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Pretty sure the only two to achieve both being Indra incarnates is indication enough, especially when that connection was highlighted.


When was that connection between Indra incarnates and EMS highlighted?


Blu-ray said:


> The common sense response since even 3T can cast genjutsu. He probably just expected a more potent version of that (which Tsukuyomi technically is.)


It's more likely that he had a better idea of it than it being just a more potent version of 3t genjutsu. Kakashi actually seemed to have an somewhat accurate approximation of how powerful it was, before hand, I mean he was sweating bricks and had Asuma and Kurenai do something really dumb because he couldn't think clearly due to all the fear he was feeling. That tells me that at least he knew it probably could take him out easily.


Blu-ray said:


> Kakashi didn't even know that he himself had MS at that point.


My bad man, I meant Kakashi knew that Itachi's MS was much greater than Kakashi's own 3 tomoe sharingan.


Blu-ray said:


> Why would Kakashi think differently? Regardless of what Itachi said to him about what can and can't beat Tsukuyomi, Kakashi knows Sasuke is an Uchiha and that his eyes would inevitably surpass his power.
> 
> And they did since Sasuke with 3T could even suppress the Kyuubi, something Kakashi could not do with Mangekyo and instead needed Jiraiya's seal for.



Why would Kakashi think that Sasuke's 3 tomoe would become much stronger than his own? Notice that Itachi didn't use 3 tomoe genjutsu on Kakashi, even though he had the chance. Where was it said that Kakashi knew that Sasuke would surpass Itachi? Besides, even if he did know that, it's not like that means that Sasuke would surpass Itachi who was 21 when he became 15 and Kakashi didn't predict that would happen.




Blu-ray said:


> Because he himself couldn't? Like I said. Kakashi knows better than to limit what Sasuke, an Uchiha can do with Sharingan, by what he who isn't an Uchiha can do. If anything, he'd think Sasuke capable of the same feats as Itachi.


​
Because Kakashi didn't know Sasuke could obtain MS and it was much more powerful than the 3tomoe that Kakashi knew Sasuke could accomplish.


Blu-ray said:


> Said to people that weren't Uchiha with Sharingan.


It doesn't make a difference who he said it to because of the content of what he said. It's like if Chiyo said "You don't have to worry about his super knife, because we have super armor." than Kakashi says "No armor can stop this knife from penetrating." Kakashi had no reason to make a sweeping statement similar to that, he could simply stated " his ocular genjutsu has you in an instant,
none of those methods will work."​


Blu-ray said:


> Who says something happened to them to begin with? Plus is reaching and you know it. If Sasuke was under genjutsu, we'd know it. Just like how we knew he was under Tsukuyomi.


Let me ask you this than, why did Kishi put that scene in the manga at all than? Why did he have Sasuke say that at all? It was pointless on it's own. Also why did Kishi have Itachi say not once, or twice, but three times Sasuke you've gotten stronger? There was no need to say that more than once. Three times is completely unnecessary. It's a big coincidence that Sasuke notices that Itachi has habit of saying that when he's in a genjutsu and that Itachi ends up saying it when it was unnecessary anyway.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 13, 2018)

Trolling said:


> When was that connection between Indra incarnates and EMS highlighted?


The only two confirmed users being Indra Transmigrants along with having the same type of Mangekyo isn't enough?



Trolling said:


> It's more likely that he had a better idea of it than it being just a more potent version of 3t genjutsu. Kakashi actually seemed to have an somewhat accurate approximation of how powerful it was, before hand, I mean he was sweating bricks and had Asuma and Kurenai do something really dumb because he couldn't think clearly due to all the fear he was feeling. That tells me that at least he knew it probably could take him out easily.



He left his Sharingan eye open and said only another Sharingan could take Itachi on. All that indicates is general knowledge of Sharingan and a belief that he stood a chance, not anything in depth. Kakashi's not so arrogant as to believe that his inability to defend against something means that thing is unbeatable.



Trolling said:


> Why would Kakashi think that Sasuke's 3 tomoe would become much stronger than his own?


Common sense. It's the natural assumption that Sharingan would be much stronger in the hands of an Uchiha and Kakashi knows this. Same reason Yamato knows Hashirama's Mokuton is much stronger than his own. 



Trolling said:


> Because Kakashi didn't know Sasuke could obtain MS and it was much more powerful than the 3tomoe that Kakashi knew Sasuke could accomplish.


Why would Kakashi assume Sasuke couldn't or wouldn't achieve the Mangekyo to begin with? You're teaching just doesn't make any sense because it hinges on Kakashi making retarded assessments of his ability and Sasuke's potential.



Trolling said:


> doesn't make a difference who he said it to because of the content of what he said. It's like if Chiyo said "You don't have to worry about his super knife, because we have super armor." than Kakashi says "*No armor can stop this knife from penetrating*." Kakashi had no reason to make a sweeping statement similar to that, he could simply stated " his ocular genjutsu has you in an instant,
> none of those methods will work."​


Kakashi was already under the impression that Sasuke couldn't potentially defeat it when he said that line, so your analogy is wrong.



Trolling said:


> Let me ask you this than, why did Kishi put that scene in the manga at all than? Why did he have Sasuke say that at all? It was pointless on it's own. Also why did Kishi have Itachi say not once, or twice, but three times Sasuke you've gotten stronger? There was no need to say that more than once. Three times is completely unnecessary. It's a big coincidence that Sasuke notices that Itachi has habit of saying that when he's in a genjutsu and that Itachi ends up saying it when it was unnecessary anyway.


The answer to why Itachi kept saying Sasuke is stronger is simply that Sasuke got stronger and he is acknowledging that, and each time it was said was a result of Sasuke pulling out a new stop. Nothing more.

Anything else is just convoluted nonsense you are reading into the narrative. If Kishi wanted us to believe Sasuke was under genjutsu that specific moment, he would've written it in. 

What illusion or genjutsu would he even be under at that point? Controlling Sasuke into doing what he already intended to do? Creating an illusion that's no different from actual reality? Makes no damn sense.


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## Bookworm (Feb 13, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> He left his Sharingan eye open and said only another Sharingan could take Itachi on. All that indicates is general knowledge of Sharingan and a belief that he stood a chance, not anything in depth. Kakashi's not so arrogant as to believe that his inability to defend against something means that thing is unbeatable.


It's not simply his inability to break it that left Kakashi with the strong impression of Tsukuyomi, it was the time dilation.


Blu-ray said:


> Common sense. It's the natural assumption that Sharingan would be much stronger in the hands of an Uchiha and Kakashi knows this. Same reason Yamato knows Hashirama's Mokuton is much stronger than his own.


Yet Kakashi was able to dispel Obito's genjutsu, with his 3tomoe, even though Obito was able to control a jinchuuriki through it.


Blu-ray said:


> Why would Kakashi assume Sasuke couldn't or wouldn't achieve the Mangekyo to begin with? You're teaching just doesn't make any sense because it hinges on Kakashi making retarded assessments of his ability and Sasuke's potential.


Kakashi had no reason to assume Sasuke could achieve MS, because he didn't know how it was achieved.


Blu-ray said:


> Kakashi was already under the impression that Sasuke couldn't potentially defeat it when he said that line, so your analogy is wrong.


When was Kakashi under the impression that Sasuke couldn't beat Tsukuyomi? How would that make the analogy wrong.


Blu-ray said:


> The answer to why Itachi kept saying Sasuke is stronger is simply that Sasuke got stronger and he is acknowledging that, and each time it was said was a result of Sasuke pulling out a new stop. Nothing more.
> 
> Anything else is just convoluted nonsense you are reading into the narrative. If Kishi wanted us to believe Sasuke was under genjutsu that specific moment, he would've written it in.
> 
> What illusion or genjutsu would he even be under at that point? Controlling Sasuke into doing what he already intended to do? Creating an illusion that's no different from actual reality? Makes no damn sense.


Why did Kishi have Sasuke note Itachi's habit of saying the same line over and over again when Sasuke's in a genjutsu? It was pointless and unnecessary, if what you say is true. He could of controlled Sasuke into doing the shuriken battle, into doing Gokakyu twice, controlled him into preempting and dodging Amaterasu.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 13, 2018)

Trolling said:


> It's not simply his inability to break it that left Kakashi with the strong impression of Tsukuyomi, it was the time dilation.


Who cares about his impression. At the end of the day, he cannot and would not assume someone else cannot do something simply because he can't.



> Yet Kakashi was able to dispel Obito's genjutsu, with his 3tomoe, even though Obito was able to control a jinchuuriki through it.


He broke generic 3T genjutsu that was nothing more than phantom apparitions. That doesn't equate to doing what a full fledged Uchiha couldn't.



> Kakashi had no reason to assume Sasuke could achieve MS, because he didn't know how it was achieved.


Kakashi not knowing how it's achieved wouldn't rule out Sasuke's ability to awaken it in his mind.



> When was Kakashi under the impression that Sasuke couldn't beat Tsukuyomi? How would that make the analogy wrong.


I'm completely lost here. You say Kakashi felt Tsukuyomi was unbeatable as a blanket statement, but now say he wasn't under the impression Sasuke couldn't beat Tsukuyomi. Which is it?



> Why did Kishi have Sasuke note Itachi's habit of saying the same line over and over again when Sasuke's in a genjutsu? It was pointless and unnecessary, if what you say is true.



When did Kishi ever make that line seem anything more than what it directly states, that being Itachi seeing how strong Sasuke became?

Just like I said in the very post you quoted and replied to,_ Itachi said it in response to Sasuke further proving his strength. _He said it more than once because Sasuke impressed him more than once. That's all there is to it.



> He could of controlled Sasuke into doing the shuriken battle, into doing Gokakyu twice, controlled him into preempting and dodging Amaterasu.


This is taking reach to whole new levels since it goes beyond arguing that Tsukuyomi is unbreakable but even his ordinary genjutsu.

It also makes no sense since all of those things were things Sasuke would do anyway, and prepping Shuriken to interrupt handseals and avoiding Amaterasu were things he planned before the fight. Saying he controlled Sasuke into using Katon is like saying he'd go up against a boxer and control him into throwing a punch. None of it makes sense, is feasible and was implied to happen.

Also we're veering off into a weird tangent and I don't wanna continue a back and forth consisting solely of extreme nitpicking and reaching, so I'll surmise my point as this: If Sasuke was under genjutsu it would've been noted, just like when he and Itachi had their back and forth and when he broke Tsukuyomi.

We can't assume otherwise happened anymore than we can say Sasuke was fucking Karin and Hinata on the side.


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## Bookworm (Feb 15, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Who cares about his impression. At the end of the day, he cannot and would not assume someone else cannot do something simply because he can't.


He assumed that Asuma and Kurenai couldn't break Tsukuyomi. Kurenai is even a high level genjutsu master. Of course Yamato isn't as strong Hashirama, Hashi has way bigger chakra reserves and his chakra control is way better.


Blu-ray said:


> He broke generic 3T genjutsu that was nothing more than phantom apparitions. That doesn't equate to doing what a full fledged Uchiha couldn't.


The point is that Kakashi's 3T sharingan had enough power to break Obito's genjutsu, so it had at least power rivaling Obito's 3 tomoe sharingan.


Blu-ray said:


> I'm completely lost here. You say Kakashi felt Tsukuyomi was unbeatable as a blanket statement, but now say he wasn't under the impression Sasuke couldn't beat Tsukuyomi. Which is it?


I was confused for a second too, let's just forget I questioned you about when Kakashi used Tsukuyomi. If Kakashi believed that Sasuke couldn't beat Tsukuyomi, how would that make the analogy wrong?


Blu-ray said:


> When did Kishi ever make that line seem anything more than what it directly states, that being Itachi seeing how strong Sasuke became?
> 
> Just like I said in the very post you quoted and replied to,_ Itachi said it in response to Sasuke further proving his strength. _He said it more than once because Sasuke impressed him more than once. That's all there is to it.


You explained why Kishi might of had Itachi say what he did, not why Kishi had Sasuke say this: "The exact same words as before, as well as crows. Starting off with your favorite genjutsu farce, eh." Kishi had Sasuke connect Itachi's genjutsu with that same line, there would be no point in this statement, if what you say is true.


Blu-ray said:


> This is taking reach to whole new levels since it goes beyond arguing that Tsukuyomi is unbreakable but even his ordinary genjutsu.
> 
> It also makes no sense since all of those things were things Sasuke would do anyway, and prepping Shuriken to interrupt handseals and avoiding Amaterasu were things he planned before the fight. Saying he controlled Sasuke into using Katon is like saying he'd go up against a boxer and control him into throwing a punch. None of it makes sense, is feasible and was implied to happen.
> 
> ...


Where did you get the idea that that means Itachi's regular genjutsu is unbreakable? I was implying he used Tsukuyomi. There's nothing with Itachi controlling Sasuke to use his Gokakyuu in those _exact_ moments. Besides he didn't even have to hypnotize Sasuke into doing anything drastically different, he could slowed or speed up Sasuke's perception at moment's to control the battle. And even if he didn't control Sasuke through genjutsu, that doesn't mean Sasuke wasn't in genjutsu.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 15, 2018)

Trolling said:


> He assumed that Asuma and Kurenai couldn't break Tsukuyomi.


Correct. He assumed two of his close acquaintances whose skills he was highly familiar with couldn't break it, not every Shinobi ever including ones he didn't know.



> Of course Yamato isn't as strong Hashirama, Hashi has way bigger chakra reserves and his chakra control is way better.


He's not as good as Hashirama because he's a knock-off.



> The point is that Kakashi's 3T sharingan had enough power to break Obito's genjutsu, so it had at least power rivaling Obito's 3 tomoe sharingan.


You don't have to have Sharingan to break a 3T to begin with, let alone one with equivalent power. Sasuke's base Sharingan certainly wasn't on par with MS yet broke Tsukuyomi.



> I was confused for a second too, let's just forget I questioned you about when Kakashi used Tsukuyomi. If Kakashi believed that Sasuke couldn't beat Tsukuyomi, how would that make the analogy wrong?


But he _did believe _Sasuke was capable of breaking it when he said that. So any analogy that asserts that Kakashi's words implied he felt absolutely no one including Sasuke could break it are false.

This whole argument is stupid because even if Kakashi believed no one including Sasuke could beat Tsukuyomi or Itachi, as soon as news reached him that Sasuke killed Itachi he'd just assume he was proven wrong. He wouldn't jump and go _"This must be a trick!!! Itachi and his Tsukuyomi kicked my ass so there's no way anyone else including his brother with the same eyes could ever beat him!!!"_



> You explained why Kishi might of had Itachi say what he did, not why Kishi had Sasuke say this: "The exact same words as before, as well as crows. Starting off with your favorite genjutsu farce, eh." Kishi had Sasuke connect Itachi's genjutsu with that same line, there would be no point in this statement, if what you say is true.


I'm sure Kishi could've had Itachi burst into crows the last time he said that if he really was going for this parallel of yours.



> Where did you get the idea that that means Itachi's regular genjutsu is unbreakable? I was implying he used Tsukuyomi. There's nothing with Itachi controlling Sasuke to use his Gokakyuu in those _exact_ moments. Besides he didn't even have to hypnotize Sasuke into doing anything drastically different, he could slowed or speed up Sasuke's perception at moment's to control the battle. And even if he didn't control Sasuke through genjutsu, that doesn't mean Sasuke wasn't in genjutsu.


I didn't think you were talking about Tsukuyomi in this instance because it doesn't control people or hypnotizes them into acting under false pretences in real time. It creates an illusory world that lasts only for a brief moment in real time but extends indefinitely within the illusory world. 

It can't trick Sasuke into throwing Shuriken or mess up his timing of launching a fireball, and lasts less than a second in real time so Sasuke obviously couldn't have been under it the entire time.


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## Bookworm (Feb 15, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Correct. He assumed two of his close acquaintances whose skills he was highly familiar with couldn't break it, not every Shinobi ever including ones he didn't know.


He assumed shinobi he wasn't familiar with couldn't break Tsukuyomi when he said something like, it doesn't matter if you can break genjutsu or not. He wasn't familiar with Chiyo. Besides Kakashi was much more familiar with Gai, but didn't know how Gai would deal with the sharingan, so it's not like he would necessarily know their full capabilities.


Blu-ray said:


> You don't have to have Sharingan to break a 3T to begin with, let alone one with equivalent power. Sasuke's base Sharingan certainly wasn't on par with MS yet broke Tsukuyomi.


 Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi is in contention, so another example is necessary and there isn't another case where a 3T broke Tsukuyomi.


Blu-ray said:


> But he _did believe _Sasuke was capable of breaking it when he said that. So any analogy that asserts that Kakashi's words implied he felt absolutely no one including Sasuke could break it are false.
> 
> This whole argument is stupid because even if Kakashi believed no one including Sasuke could beat Tsukuyomi or Itachi, as soon as news reached him that Sasuke killed Itachi he'd just assume he was proven wrong. He wouldn't jump and go _"This must be a trick!!! Itachi and his Tsukuyomi kicked my ass so there's no way anyone else including his brother with the same eyes could ever beat him!!!"_


How do you know Kakashi believed Sasuke could break it? Kakashi was surprised when Sasuke beat Itachi.


Blu-ray said:


> I didn't think you were talking about Tsukuyomi in this instance because it doesn't control people or hypnotizes them into acting under false pretences in real time. It creates an illusory world that lasts only for a brief moment in real time but extends indefinitely within the illusory world.
> 
> It can't trick Sasuke into throwing Shuriken or mess up his timing of launching a fireball, and lasts less than a second in real time so Sasuke obviously couldn't have been under it the entire time.


It controlled Kabuto, not to mention it's a hypnotic genjutsu, just like sharingan: genjutsu. Also Tsukuyomi last more than a second vs Kabuto.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 15, 2018)

Trolling said:


> He assumed shinobi he wasn't familiar with couldn't break Tsukuyomi when he said something like, it doesn't matter if you can break genjutsu or not. He wasn't familiar with Chiyo. Besides Kakashi was much more familiar with Gai, but didn't know how Gai would deal with the sharingan, so it's not like he would necessarily know their full capabilities.
> 
> Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi is in contention, so another example is necessary and there isn't another case where a 3T broke Tsukuyomi.
> 
> How do you know Kakashi believed Sasuke could break it? Kakashi was surprised when Sasuke beat Itachi.


I'm sorry dude but this whole back and forth is inane. It hinges on the notion that if Itachi didn't tell Kakashi that Tsukuyomi had a vulnerability, then Kakashi would make the retarded assumption that it and Itachi by extension could never be beaten by anyone ever including other Uchiha, effectively making Itachi invincible in Kakashi's eyes.

It also stupidly assumes that Kakashi would rule out Itachi's own brother potentially achieving the same power and above all else, it's pointless. What purpose would deceiving Kakashi off all people on that one specific issue serve? How does tricking Kakashi about something he wouldn't even know about if Itachi didn't bring up to begin with make any logical sense?

Even if Kakashi would believe the "Itachi solos" hype, why wouldn't he just assume he was wrong when news of Itachi's death by Sasuke's hands reaches him? What consequence would there even be if he wouldn't? It's illogical nonsense all around.



> It controlled Kabuto, not to mention it's a hypnotic genjutsu, just like sharingan: genjutsu. Also Tsukuyomi last more than a second vs Kabuto.


That was generic Saimingan Genjutsu, not Tsukuyomi. He uses Tsukuyomi with his left eye and that was the eye that he sacrificed for Izanami, while the eye he used to Genjutsu Kabuto was his right, the one that had Amaterasu.


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## Jinnobi (Feb 16, 2018)

Itachi's Tsukiyomi, like the rest of his repertoire, was exceptionally strong. 
It was Danzou who compared Sasuke's genjutsu to Itachi's, as "The difference between heaven and earth." 
Itachi's Tsukiyomi granted him control over the victim's perception of time, but took place in an instant -- far too quickly to break with conventional self-help techniques, or for an ally to help. This is why it was so feared. It was less like an internal movie and more like a stroke happening in Narnia time.


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## Bookworm (Feb 18, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> I'm sorry dude but this whole back and forth is inane. It hinges on the notion that if Itachi didn't tell Kakashi that Tsukuyomi had a vulnerability, then Kakashi would make the retarded assumption that it and Itachi by extension could never be beaten by anyone ever including other Uchiha, effectively making Itachi invincible in Kakashi's eyes.
> 
> It also stupidly assumes that Kakashi would rule out Itachi's own brother potentially achieving the same power and above all else, it's pointless. What purpose would deceiving Kakashi off all people on that one specific issue serve? How does tricking Kakashi about something he wouldn't even know about if Itachi didn't bring up to begin with make any logical sense?
> 
> Even if Kakashi would believe the "Itachi solos" hype, why wouldn't he just assume he was wrong when news of Itachi's death by Sasuke's hands reaches him? What consequence would there even be if he wouldn't? It's illogical nonsense all around.


It wouldn't make Itachi seem any more invincible in Kakashi's eyes than Shisui was. Shisui's koto was OP as hell and could supposedly cast koto even without eye contact.
Since Kakashi was going to experience Tsukuyomi right after Itachi talked about it, thus discovering that one it's an extremely powerful genjutsu and two it last a second according to Asuma, Itachi could slip it in there that someone like Sasuke could beat it, so Kakashi would believe it.
The point is to mitigate chances of Kakashi finding out that Itachi was holding back, which would inevitably lead to the question of why and being suspicious. Itachi was already suspicious enough since he left Kakashi alive.


Blu-ray said:


> That was generic Saimingan Genjutsu, not Tsukuyomi. He uses Tsukuyomi with his left eye and that was the eye that he sacrificed for Izanami, while the eye he used to Genjutsu Kabuto was his right, the one that had Amaterasu.


Itachi has complete control over Tsukuyomi. Him saying that he would control Kabuto with his Tsukuyomi, so Kabuto can tell him the seals for undoing Edo Tensei indicates he can control Kabuto and can change the length of Tsukuyomi.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 18, 2018)

Trolling said:


> It wouldn't make Itachi seem any more invincible in Kakashi's eyes than Shisui was. Shisui could supposedly cast koto even without eye contact too.


Kakashi knows about Koto Amatsukami now?



> Since Kakashi was going to experience Tsukuyomi right after Itachi talked about it, thus discovering that one it's an extremely powerful genjutsu and two it last a second according to Asuma, Itachi could slip it in there that someone like Sasuke could beat it, so Kakashi would believe it.
> The point is to mitigate chances of Kakashi finding out that Itachi was holding back, which would inevitably lead to the question of why and being suspicious. Itachi was already suspicious enough since he left Kakashi alive.


If Kakashi heard that Sasuke killed Itachi, he'd simply assume that Sasuke either surpassed him, killed him while he was weak or killed him while his guard was down. This goes beyond just Tsukuyomi and assuming Itachi himself was without vulnerability.

Even if Kakashi thought that hell would freeze over before anyone broke Tsukuyomi, he'd just assume Sasuke did the deed without making eye contact.

The last thing he'd do is jump to the conclusion that a man who butchered his family and put the only survivor in coma would let said survivor kill him, and even if Kakashi had such prophetic clairvoyance, nothing would come of it since he'd have no proof.

This notion that Kakashi would think Itachi was absolutely invincible just because he lost is just mind-numbingly nonsensical.



Trolling said:


> Itachi has complete control over Tsukuyomi.


What happens within it.



> Him saying that he would control Kabuto with his Tsukuyomi, so Kabuto can tell him the seals for undoing Edo Tensei indicates he can control Kabuto and can change the length of Tsukuyomi.


He said he'd control him while keeping him in the illusion. He did the same thing just with Izanami instead, but we know it was generic genjutsu and not Izanami that did the actual controlling.

Ironically enough, he said every jutsu had a weakpoint as he said this. So clearly his must have a weakpoint too.


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## Serene Grace (Feb 18, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Sasuke broke out of his strongest genjutsu, Tsukuyomi, but did Sasuke really break it?


Yes saying otherwise is fanficitional nonsense

> Itachi used Tsukuyomi
> Sasuke broke out of it

nothing more nothing less, don't know where you got this "holding on Tsukuyomi" fanfic 

The databook even outright states


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## Kisame (Feb 18, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Yes saying otherwise is fanficitional nonsense
> 
> > Itachi used Tsukuyomi
> > Sasuke broke out of it
> ...


Not only that but Sasuke perfectly fits the criteria for breaking it:

-Proficient in genjutsu
-Sharingan
-Uchiha blood

If he couldn't, who can?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bookworm (Feb 18, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Kakashi knows about Koto Amatsukami now?


It doesn't matter if he doesn't, the point is, it doesn't make Itachi any more invincible than Shisui is. I wouldn't be surprised if he did though, Shisui was famous in Konoha as Shisui of the Mirage.


Blu-ray said:


> If Kakashi heard that Sasuke killed Itachi, he'd simply assume that Sasuke either surpassed him, killed him while he was weak or killed him while his guard was down. This goes beyond just Tsukuyomi and assuming Itachi himself was without vulnerability.
> 
> Even if Kakashi thought that hell would freeze over before anyone broke Tsukuyomi, he'd just assume Sasuke did the deed without making eye contact.
> 
> ...


Kakashi was surprised when he heard that Sasuke killed Itachi. I never said Kakashi would think Itachi would be invincible.



Blu-ray said:


> He said he'd control him while keeping him in the illusion. He did the same thing just with Izanami instead, but we know it was generic genjutsu and not Izanami that did the actual controlling.
> 
> Ironically enough, he said every jutsu had a weakpoint as he said this. So clearly his must have a weakpoint too.


He didn't say he manipulate him with another genjutsu. Tsukuyomi's weakness is that it needs eye contact.



Serene Grace said:


> Yes saying otherwise is fanficitional nonsense
> 
> > Itachi used Tsukuyomi
> > Sasuke broke out of it
> ...


The DB said Sasuke defeated MS, not that he broke Tsukuyomi. ​Besides ,the DB also said that Tobi was Madara even though he wasn't so the DB can be flat out wrong. Sometimes it says things based on what it appears to be in the manga.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 18, 2018)

Trolling said:


> It doesn't matter if he doesn't, the point is, it doesn't make Itachi any more invincible than Shisui is. I wouldn't be surprised if he did though, Shisui was famous in Konoha as Shisui of the Mirage.


There's a reason his moniker came from his speed and not his genjutsu.



> Kakashi was surprised when he heard that Sasuke killed Itachi. I never said Kakashi would think Itachi would be invincible.


But that's practically what you're arguing, because according to you he would never be able to wrap his brain around Tsukuyomi being broken had Itachi not explicitly told him it was possible.

Kakashi shock wasn't about their strength. What really shocked him was that Sasuke was able to kill Danzo, but he didn't immediately assume Danzo threw that fight either.






> He didn't say he manipulate him with another genjutsu. Tsukuyomi's weakness is that it needs eye contact.


He didn't say he'd manipulate him using Tsukuyomi either.





> The DB said Sasuke defeated MS, not that he broke Tsukuyomi.


 
The databook flat out said he broke Tsukuyomi​


> Besides ,the DB also said that Tobi was Madara even though he wasn't so the DB can be flat out wrong. Sometimes it says things based on what it appears to be in the manga.


These two things aren't even related. Besides, it was later revealed who Madara really was while Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi has yet to be contested


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## Serene Grace (Feb 18, 2018)

Trolling said:


> The DB said Sasuke defeated MS, not that he broke Tsukuyomi.


Are you trolling?

*Spoiler*: __ 









It said "he defeats the MS", and shows a picture of_ Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi_, yet that somehow implies the databook didn't state he did? 



Trolling said:


> Besides ,the DB also said that Tobi was Madara even though he wasn't so the DB can be flat out wrong


Which was relevant to the story at the time and we later see this to be incorrect, Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi however - _not so much_ 



Trolling said:


> Sometimes it says things based on what it appears to be in the manga.


And not once did the manga contest the notion that Sasuke broke it, it's a manga fact and stays a manga fact

anything else is literal fanfic


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## Bookworm (Mar 20, 2018)

I'm bored so I'll come back to this thread.



Serene Grace said:


> Are you trolling?
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> 
> ...



Now that I think about it Blu-ray's suggestion that Sasuke didn't break even regular genjutsu is likely true, Tobi said that Sasuke didn't even see through any of Itachi's illusions.  The DB shows a picture of Sasuke breaking a genjutsu, but we don't know it was Tsukuyomi, because it can't be proven Itachi used time dilation. Even if Sasuke did defeat MS, it's not enough evidence to say he defeated Tsukuyomi.



Serene Grace said:


> And not once did the manga contest the notion that Sasuke broke it, it's a manga fact and stays a manga fact
> 
> anything else is literal fanfic



Kakashi contested the notion that Tsukuyomi could be beaten, at all (when time dilation is used).

Reactions: Funny 1


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 21, 2018)

> Most people think Itachi is pretty much at the level we thought he was at, however... Itachi could of been far stronger than he appeared and *may have had the potential to surpass Madara*.


I'll stop here as it would've been impossible for Itachi to surpass a shinobi that awakened the Rinnegan.

Madara had the chakra from Indra, and acquired the chakra from Ashura (Hashirama - a rival during his lifetime) to awaken it.

Not only is it impossible to discern whether Itachi stealing Naruto's chakra and somehow implanting it himself indefinitely (he's not Hashirama- his chakra doesn't exist within immortal cells) would have worked to awaken Rinnegan - it's improbable that he'd somehow know that it

Takes those two elements to awaken Rinnegan to begin with
That Sasuke and Naruto were the transmigrants

There's also the fact that Madara looked superior to EMS Sasuke while *blinded*. He wasn't normal even as it pertains to Uchiha.

There's also the fact it took Madara, a pure transmigrant, his entire lifetime to awaken Rinnegan - at which point he was in his elder years - with help from Black Zetsu (knows all about rikudo power) and Orochimaru (implied- advanced scientific knowledge/chakra manipulation) during a lot of that span.

Even if Itachi were to somehow awaken it - it would be well after Madara did and he probably would not live long enough to see it come to fruition - or if he did - he would be inferior in combat to a prime Madara due to his *extremely* advanced age at that point.

In short Itachi was written incapable of surpassing the greatest Uchiha (Indra, Madara, Sasuke), and not once was it implied he could surpass shinobi like Minato let alone Madara when shinobi who knew him were discussing his caliber at young and current ages.


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> I'll stop here as it would've been impossible for Itachi to surpass a shinobi that awakened the Rinnegan.
> 
> Madara had the chakra from Indra, and acquired the chakra from Ashura (Hashirama - a rival during his lifetime) to awaken it.
> 
> ...



I meant Itachi could surpass EMS Madara. Itachi said that he could surpass EMS Madara.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> I meant Itachi could surpass EMS Madara. Itachi said that he could surpass EMS Madara.


He said he could surpass Madara, who at the time was Obito as far as he and the rest of the audience knew.

Itachi was going to die minutes after that speech to Sasuke upon his own will so anything said regarding his future meant nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Look, it's certainly possible. Itachi unlocked and mastered MS and Elite Genjutsu at age 13 and his MS Susano is truly special, so the potential is there.

But even EMS Madara is a high mountain to climb power wise - Sasuke's EMS Susano variants early into his transformation were pathetic in comparison to Edo Madara's weakened PS, we're talking a doll-in-hand size compared to Madara's PS. The only PS variant he could even manifest was a partial arm to sustain the tug-of-war - he didn't even have the power to manifest a full PS. 

With 35 years of training that could have changed for a 51 year old Sasuke - around the age of Prime Sannin - but Sasuke would've had a better chance at it being a spiritual descendant of Indra than Itachi who is simply just an exceptional Uchiha. 

I wouldn't doubt the possibility but I certainly would not bet in favor of Itachi doing it. I would favor Sasuke over him, and Madara of course is the pinnacle of non-rikudo Uchiha.


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 21, 2018)

I miss the days of the hardcore Itachi wank. Maybe I should bring it back to counter the Kisame wank

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> He said he could surpass Madara, who at the time was Obito as far as he and the rest of the audience knew.
> 
> Itachi was going to die minutes after that speech to Sasuke upon his own will so anything said regarding his future meant nothing as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> ...



He didn't mean he could surpass, what he viewed as a broken shell of Madara (Tobi). He said the only one could achieve the true height of the Uchiha was himself, at least after he obtained EMS.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Mar 24, 2018)

Kakashi never lied in his life, Itachi lied 99.9% of his life stated by Kabuto and Obito.....who'd you believe...? A known liar or an intellectual who is almost never wrong about his analysis and has got compliments from the God of Shinobi: Hagoromo himself...? 

Itachi planned each and every part of the fight........ which thoroughouly proves he put Sasuke in a hypnotic genjutsu......how can someone fore-predict something before it has even taken place....?

Okay, even if he didnt put Sasuke in a Genjutsu.....It's at least proven Itachi can see the future perfectly and could've attained every thing he wanted if he wanted that is......


There was no need for Itachi to make a broad statement like 'it has nothing to do with whether you can beat genjutsu/not..." how muchever you hent it to be, fact is it was never spoken contextually but generally, which is more trustworthy coming from the guy who experienced the setbacks of Tsukiyomi directly...........plus.......Kakashi never said Tsukiyomi alone is unbreakable but each and every of his MS genjutsu.........no specification whatsoever.........



Once again....Kabuto repeatedly called him a liar...........



Itachi said Jiraiya can beat the duo even if there is more backup from akatsuki...........does that even make sense..? A weakling like him who lost to Three Pain paths in his most powerful form....?

Kisame even said "Why're you retreating....if its you you can easily..."

Implying Itachi was lying about earlier statement to keep a facade so his partner wont suspect his loyalty to Akatsuki...........



Can you actually break something stated to be unbreakable by it's own mechanics....?

In part 1....Itachi claimed inside the genjutsu that he can control space, time and mass inside his Tsukuyomi Realm.........he can destroy the oxygen supply, strain him with space pressure, destroy his cellular organs and structures, wipe out his soul....everything in said realm.......so..........are uchihas immune to lack of oxygen....? Are uchihas immune to a stab in the brain......? No....they aren't......automatically because you're connected with blood you cannot break shit......that is never heard of in any where of this series.......might as well say Koto can be broken by every uchiha because "blood".......it never worked like that........the things happening in the realm'll transfer equivalent stress to the counter part present in the real world........Kakashi felt three days torture happening in an instant.....which could be half a second.......which means the Itachi has full power to make the individual think what is happening is "real" and not an "illusion" which in turn causes tlthe victim to die hopelessly because of the insufferable pain of whatever itachi does to his clone which as example: sword stabs straight 3 days = half a second....Being blood doesnt do shit no matter how you look at it...........besides Tsukuyomi is labeled Ninjutsu.......Not Genjutsu which Frog Song, Gamarinsho, etc cera comes under......even most sharingan genjutsu is labeled as such............which implies you've to first prove your self to break a Wood Release technique before you can say "I'm competent enough to think I can break a no-limit fallacy technique like Tsukiyomi which can break MASS, time, mokecules, destroy gravity in it's respective space............."  There can be an argument which says " What's your proof Itachi can control space, time etc cera......he could be lying......"  Yeah he could've been lying...but has another character even come close to debunking that lie ....? If anything they actually support his claim by telling his MS is unbreakable and none of his illusions were seen through by a curse seal user and Indra Avatar as Sasuke..............Kakashi felt helpless in realm and stated "If he wanted he could've killed him....." so that part of Itachi statement stands true........Tobi and Danzo further says Sasuke's usage is as below as night and day..........that's one hell of a difference right there.........besides, Ao has already stated he cannot see through itachi's illusions yet he saw through KA and Obito's Mind Controlling......Shikaku's face sweated at the thought of Itachi controlling the 80, 000 people in the alliance..........which proves perfectly that Itachi could manipulate that many people and this implication coming from a konoha elder who knows lots and lots of history about Itachi's life like every other elder as Danzo, Koharu.................


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## Bookworm (Aug 24, 2018)

bump


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## sabre320 (Aug 24, 2018)

Sadly not being an indra transmigrant , having abysmal chakra reserves and particularly potent chakra as compared to sasuke whose chakra was compared to Madaras it is very doubtful he would be able to draw out the full potential of the ems especially full-scale ps.


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## Bookworm (Aug 24, 2018)

Sasuke's chakra reserves were near Itachi's size until the War Arc


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## sabre320 (Aug 24, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Sasuke's chakra reserves were near Itachi's size until the War Arc


Naw his chakra reserves were growing considerably, awakening the mankegyo itself makes the users chakra pool greater and in the hebi arc he was holding back oro and had the cs lowering his stamina.


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## Bookworm (Aug 24, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Naw his chakra reserves were growing considerably, awakening the mankegyo itself makes the users chakra pool greater and in the hebi arc he was holding back oro and had the cs lowering his stamina.



There was a small amount of chakra holding Oro back, as Itachi said Sasuke was out of chakra when shot his katon in the air, some time after that is when Oro came out.


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## sabre320 (Aug 24, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> There was a small amount of chakra holding Oro back, as Itachi said Sasuke was out of chakra when shot his katon in the air, some time after that is when Oro came out.


He had the cs reducing his endurance and used cs2 which did this further , his tamina was always better then itachis as backed by itachi who was specifically given a stamina rating that was borderline poor while sasukes was significantly higher..


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## Bookworm (Aug 24, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> He had the cs reducing his endurance and used cs2 which did this further , his tamina was always better then itachis as backed by itachi who was specifically given a stamina rating that was borderline poor while sasukes was significantly higher..



I just checked back, your right about it being higher at the time of the battle between them, but wrong about Sasuke's stamina always being higher.


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## sabre320 (Aug 24, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> I just checked back, your right about it being higher at the time of the battle between them, but wrong about Sasuke's stamina always being higher.


Well obviously not as a gennin


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## Bookworm (Aug 24, 2018)

What did Kakashi mean here: "On the other hand within them Naruto *and Sasuke* both harbor such massive untapped reserves of chakra that Sakura is nothing in comparison..."

I can understand Naruto having untapped chakra, with the Kyuubi, but Sasuke is a normal shinobi. How is it that he can't use all his chakra reserves?


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## sabre320 (Aug 24, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> What did Kakashi mean here: "On the other hand within them Naruto *and Sasuke* both harbor such massive untapped reserves of chakra that Sakura is nothing in comparison..."
> 
> I can understand Naruto having untapped chakra, with the Kyuubi, but Sasuke is a normal shinobi. How is it that he can't use all his chakra reserves?


He was an indra transmigrant with similar chakra potency as madara himself , making his growth massive over a very short period of time, though can you provide me a scan for that statement?


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## Bookworm (Aug 24, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> He was an indra transmigrant with similar chakra potency as madara himself , making his growth massive over a very short period of time, though can you provide me a scan for that statement?



I can't, but I can tell you the chapter. Chapter 18.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 24, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> What I'm getting at is Sasuke was still in genjutsu, when Susanoo blocked Kirin.



The fight made it clear that Genjutsu ended when Sasuke could see through all Itachi's illusions and broke Tsukuyomi.



> Tobi said that Itachi planned out the contingencies for his fight with Sasuke, but how would he be able to make sure Sasuke did what he wanted? The answer is hypnotic genjutsu. You might be thinking that's impossible, because Sasuke broke out of his strongest genjutsu, Tsukuyomi, but did Sasuke really break it? It's true that Itachi said Tsukuyomi could be broken by the sharingan, but you should keep 2 things in mind: if Tsukuyomi actually couldn't be broken by 3 Tomoe would Itachi actually tell Kakashi that? Itachi wanted to make it believable that he was killed by Sasuke, if Tsukuyomi couldn't be broken by Sasuke, that would cast doubt on Sasuke's ability to beat him. The second thing to keep in mind is Itachi is a liar, as I mentioned above Itachi had reason to lie.



It was foreshadowed that Sasuke could break the illusion in part 1. In part 2 he did, Itachi hit him with every jutsu he could handle, which happened to be 2 MS jutsu. We also see Bee break Tsukuyomi, so there's that.



> 2.* Speed
> *
> Itachi's foot speed was great enough that he was able to create a KB, have it stand in his former position and get behind Kakashi without being noticed by any of the 3 enemy combatants there. His handseal speed can't be followed even by Sasuke's sharingan. This is speculation, but reasonable; with his two types of speed combined he should be able to take anyone's back, if he uses KB. Naruto showcased how this could be done, when he created a KB behind Kakashi's back. With Itachi's handseal speed it could be done at anytime, he's in range without warning.



Those high speed movements could be shunshin, though the hand seal bits you have a point.



> 3.* Chakra Capacity *
> 
> Before we talk about Itachi's chakra capacity, I have to bring up Sasuke's. This is what Kakashi said about Sasuke's chakra capacity as a genin: "That skill is beyond the capacity of a novice. His chakra shouldn't have developed enough yet to perform it!"
> 
> ...



The manga and databook confirm each other, Itachi's chakra capacity wasn't particularly huge. His sickness didn't reduce his chakra capacity, otherwise Zetsu would've outlined that as one of the reasons as to why Itachi was weaker. Except Zetsu thought everything was fine except for the speed and coughing.

Even in part 1, Itachi was conscious of his chakra use. Against Sasuke he purposely use non-chakra taxing jutsu so he could spam the MS. If Itachi had insane reserves that would've been mentioned. He worked with what he had.

This is why Edo Itachi was his strongest variant, he had unlimited chakra top ups.




> 4.* Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan*
> 
> With Sasuke's eyes he would also gain, Sasuke's eye power, more importantly without sickness or the threat of blindness he would be able to use MS, much more freely. With more use and experience he can master Susanoo, gaining the full legged form and the complete body (Perfect) Susanoo. What perfect Susanoo requires to use it is a certain level of skill, with Susanoo.



Itachi would *never* gain the EMS.

Itachi himself said not everyone got the power that Madara obtained with swapping eyes:



Madara himself said that Sasuke and he are the only ones to awaken the straight pattern, or the EMS, and rightly guessed that he and Sasuke had a link beyond blood:



The connotation is that only Indra transmigrants can obtain the EMS.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 24, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Sadly not being an indra transmigrant , having abysmal chakra reserves and particularly potent chakra as compared to sasuke whose chakra was compared to Madaras it is very doubtful he would be able to draw out the full potential of the ems especially full-scale ps.


Sasuke's chakras were compared to Madara's by Kurama only in that they were more sinister, not that he had anywhere near his reserves.

Itachi's reserves were fairly high, the problem was his techniques required a great deal of chakra. He still used Tsukuyomi, spammed Amaterasu, manifested Susano twice and sealed Orochimaru's entire Yamata form while he was extremely ill.

Itachi could've been more powerful if he wanted to. If he sought power beyond anything else he'd of killed Danzo either with a subordinate (via Genjutsu) or his normal abilities (which include Grade A assassination skills) while he was still under his command, and took Shisui's other eye back, transplanted it, and had EMS w/ possible Dual Koto (one where he could likely use as efficient much as Shisui as they evoled into EMS).

The illness obviously held him back to some degree, as it held back Kimimaro. There would've been no such thing as intense training for men that ill, and it absolutely would've effected them in combat.

As far as PS - probably not. But mobile V4 with Yata & Totsuka & Tsukuyomi and the enhanced perception speed would've made a healthy Itachi a much more powerful shinobi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 24, 2018)

Itachi was pretty close to his full potential in life imo.

He fully mastered Tsukiyomi/Susano'o. Amaterasu had no extra for him to achieve. And his basic ninja skills speed/shurikenjutsu/general aptitude and awareness and timing were near as good as it gets without chakra amplification or ninjutsu or sensing.

I don't think he'll be as strong as  DBZ EMS MAD's/Sasuke since he not Indra incarnate, he'd have Yata mirror / Totsuka though. He had more finess and unpredictability and actual ninja-ness than they ever will though imo .


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## Phenomenon (Aug 24, 2018)

If Itachi never had that damn sickness he would be much more powerful especially with EMS had he remained Evil and took Sasuke's eyes that is.


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## Bookworm (Aug 24, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> he fight made it clear that Genjutsu ended when Sasuke could see through all Itachi's illusions and broke Tsukuyomi.


Zetsu is the one who said that.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It was foreshadowed that Sasuke could break the illusion in part 1. In part 2 he did, Itachi hit him with every jutsu he could handle, which happened to be 2 MS jutsu. We also see Bee break Tsukuyomi, so there's that.


The funny thing is Itachi didn't mention Sasuke, he said an sharingan user with the kekkai genkai and their was 1 other sharingan user (Obito) who could have fit that description.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The manga and databook confirm each other, Itachi's chakra capacity wasn't particularly huge. His sickness didn't reduce his chakra capacity, otherwise Zetsu would've outlined that as one of the reasons as to why Itachi was weaker. Except Zetsu thought everything was fine except for the speed and coughing.
> 
> Even in part 1, Itachi was conscious of his chakra use. Against Sasuke he purposely use non-chakra taxing jutsu so he could spam the MS. If Itachi had insane reserves that would've been mentioned. He worked with what he had.
> 
> This is why Edo Itachi was his strongest variant, he had unlimited chakra top ups.


Zetsu didn't have to state Itachi's chakra to be diminished for it to be so. Zetsu didn't even know it was chakra exhaustion that killed Itachi, so he didn't have a reason to see Itachi's chakra supply as being diminished. 

Besides we don't know when Itachi caught his sickness. 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi would *never* gain the EMS.
> 
> Itachi himself said not everyone got the power that Madara obtained with swapping eyes:



There's not enough evidence to know Itachi wouldn't get EMS. I read somewhere that gaining EMS requires compatibility between the two Uchiha. Not sure where in the DB I read it though, so it may take me awhile to find it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 24, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Zetsu is the one who said that.



Zetsu also had the most intel, so his word matters. 



> The funny thing is Itachi didn't mention Sasuke, he said an sharingan user with the kekkai genkai and their was 1 other sharingan user (Obito) who could have fit that description.



The reader was meant to think Sasuke and later Sasuke did in fact break it. 



> Zetsu didn't have to state Itachi's chakra to be diminished for it to be so. Zetsu didn't even know it was chakra exhaustion that killed Itachi, so he didn't have a reason to see Itachi's chakra supply as being diminished.
> 
> Besides we don't know when Itachi caught his sickness.



If it affected his battle power, he had to mention it. Itachi wasn't coughing blood when he used the MS in part 1, so we can assume between parts 1 and 2. 



> There's not enough evidence to know Itachi wouldn't get EMS. I read somewhere that gaining EMS requires compatibility between the two Uchiha. Not sure where in the DB I read it though, so it may take me awhile to find it.



I provided more than enough evidence. Madara literally confirmed only he and Sasuke have ever obtained the EMS. Both were also Indra transmigrants.


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## ThomasTheCat (Aug 25, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> bump


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## Quipchaque (Aug 25, 2018)

Itachi's real strength is suggested to be slightly below Nagato/Obito and slightly above MS Sasuke. If he actually took Sasuke's eyes tho I could see him surpassing The former two but still far below Madara, Hashirama, Rinnegan Sasuke and Naruto tho since they all have a far superior amount of Chakra.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Aug 25, 2018)

@Munboy Dracule O'Brian

Most people that assume that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi use Itachi's statement about Tsukuyomi in pt1 and Zetsu's statement as evidence. The thing is, Zetsu's statement works both ways. If it's possible to break Tsukuyomi due to ability with the tool at one's disposal (the sharingan), it's also possible to keep a powerful Uchiha, who has 3 tomoe, from breaking Tsukuyomi with the tools at itachi's disposal (MS), at least according to the logic of Zetsu's statement.


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## T-Bag (Aug 25, 2018)

Itachi was the _deadliest_ most lethal ninja in the series. He had the smarts, the foresight and the tools necessary to take out virtually anyone out.

When you have a nerd like Yakushi Kabuto stating plainly that Itachi Uchiha is on a whole different level from nagato, bee and Naruto, that tells you something about his ability. Everyone that spoke of itachi had nothing but the utmost praise

THE KING


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## Quipchaque (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> 
> Most people that assume that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi use Itachi's statement about Tsukuyomi in pt1 and Zetsu's statement as evidence. The thing is, Zetsu's statement works both ways. If it's possible to break Tsukuyomi due to ability with the tool at one's disposal (the sharingan), it's also possible to keep a powerful Uchiha, who has 3 tomoe, from breaking Tsukuyomi with the tools at itachi's disposal (MS), at least according to the logic of Zetsu's statement.



That's a plausible assumption but the burden of proof is on you that Itachi let Sasuke break out of the Tsukuyomi. The Manga constantly stresses that Sasuke will surpass Itachi. So chances are this is his own achivement. Not only that but considering that Itachi pushed even harder afterwards by trying to turn Sasuke into a pile of ashes doesn't exactly imply that Itachi was holding back either.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 26, 2018)

Only a retard would think Killer Bee broke Tsukuyomi.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 26, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That's a plausible assumption but the burden of proof is on you that Itachi let Sasuke break out of the Tsukuyomi. The Manga constantly stresses that Sasuke will surpass Itachi. So chances are this is his own achivement. Not only that but considering that Itachi pushed even harder afterwards by trying to turn Sasuke into a pile of ashes doesn't exactly imply that Itachi was holding back either.




It implied that Itachi was holding back when Sasuke recalled the two times he was "almost killed" was when he was hit by Tsukuyomi & Amateratsu. 

Obito explicitly stated that Sasuke would've died if Itachi had been serious. 

How obvious do you need it to be?


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That's a plausible assumption but the burden of proof is on you that Itachi let Sasuke break out of the Tsukuyomi. The Manga constantly stresses that Sasuke will surpass Itachi. So chances are this is his own achivement. Not only that but considering that Itachi pushed even harder afterwards by trying to turn Sasuke into a pile of ashes doesn't exactly imply that Itachi was holding back either.



Well let's look at we know:

Itachi has the much superior doujutsu
Itachi has the much superior genjutsu skill
Itachi used one of the strongest genjutsu


Sasuke doesn't have much going for him here.

The manga does imply that Sasuke could become stronger than Itachi, but that doesn't mean it was during the fight with Itachi. The first Amaterasu Itachi used he put out, for fear of killing Sasuke, the second Amaterasu was dodged using a technique that Itachi knew about.

Not to mention Tobi implied Itachi would have killed him if serious. Also Itachi had no reason to go all out with Tsukuyomi, when doing so could potentially put Sasuke in a comma or kill him, if Sasuke couldn't handle it.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Well let's look at we know:
> 
> Itachi has the much superior doujutsu
> Itachi has the much superior genjutsu skill
> ...



Well I never argued that Sasuke was stronger at that point but the fact remains he was always going to surpass Tsukuyomi sooner or later. So why should we assume that he didn't in this fight? The arguments you bring up now are also all completely neglecting the Zetsu statement and once someone brings it up you just transfer that same hype to Itachi to ignore it. Even so I just pointed out that that doesn't work cause as I said Sasuke is the one with the bigger potential and he is also the one Zetsu was referring to. Honestly to say "well if Sasuke can do that then Itachi should be able to as well" is just pure bias on your part. He can't. That's why everyone hypes Sasuke so much in the series cause he is special. 

Whether or not Itachi put out Amaterasu out of fear is also purely assumptive. Didn't you yourself just say he knows that Sasuke can shed his skin? So your own argument is a contradiction here. Either way I doubt that is the case cause he didn't stop using Amaterasu afterwards. And what you say about the second Amaterasu is another assumption. We have no idea how much Itachi knows about Orochimaru's techniques.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Well I never argued that Sasuke was stronger at that point but the fact remains he was always going to surpass Tsukuyomi sooner or later. So why should we assume that he didn't in this fight? The arguments you bring up now are also all completely neglecting the Zetsu statement and once someone brings it up you just transfer that same hype to Itachi to ignore it. Even so I just pointed out that that doesn't work cause as I said Sasuke is the one with the bigger potential and he is also the one Zetsu was referring to. Honestly to say "well if Sasuke can do that then Itachi should be able to as well" is just pure bias on your part. He can't. That's why everyone hypes Sasuke so much in the series cause he is special.
> 
> Whether or not Itachi put out Amaterasu out of fear is also purely assumptive. Didn't you yourself just say he knows that Sasuke can shed his skin? So your own argument is a contradiction here. Either way I doubt that is the case cause he didn't stop using Amaterasu afterwards. And what you say about the second Amaterasu is another assumption. We have no idea how much Itachi knows about Orochimaru's techniques.



- Sasuke having bigger potential is irrelevant, what's important is whether or not he was more capable with the sharingan in that battle than Itachi with his MS. Zetsu didn't know Itachi was throwing the fight, so he speculated as to why Sasuke won against Tsukuyomi. 

- Than why did Itachi put out of Amaterasu than? If Itachi covered Sasuke whole body with Amaterasu it's different, than if he covered a wing. Itachi said himself that Sasuke was using Oro's kawarimi. None of this matters anyway, because Tobi said Itachi was holding back.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 26, 2018)

Itachi already showed all mangekyo sharingan artilerry that can be masterize just by one person. So there is no room for "even more potential"

He has different dojutsus for both eyes individually and both eyes rewarded with Susano which has 2 spiritual hax item (no one knows where are they come from or how Itachi obtained) and then he also good at Fundamental Sharingan skills such as sharingan genjutsu, precog, izanami and izanagi. 

Also he is hailed as prodigy and has one of the best portrayals (except god-like chars) about being damn good at fundamental skills (Such as taijutsu, shurikenjutsu..)

So Thats all about Itachi.. There is no more room for him. There are already been a lot of plot device that Itachi rewarded with (kotoamatsukami, izanami, etc,et) 

And cuz of MS's taxing issues he cant develop his chakra reserves, durability and strength due to getting older like other ninjas.

So Edo-Itachi is kinda the end game for Itachi (or in this case Itachi fans) can ever hope.

He is no close to Madara or Sasuke.

And even if he had EMS there is no guarantee that he is gonna surprass Madara. Sasuke able to acheive EMS but still he was inferior to EMS Madara. EMS Sasuke never able to spam Perfect Susano like Madara. So if Itachi was able to evolve to EMS user.. That doesnt mean he is gonna be superior than Madara automaticly.

He was one of the chars that kinda bridge between Mid Kages and High Kages (such as Jiriaya, Muu, Prime Ônoki, Hanzo(at least) )


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Architect said:


> That's simple. Kakashi burrowed too deep for sharingan to see and Itachi noticed Kakashi's clone, when the latter was within the distance sharingan can X-Ray through.
> Tendo, who can also see chakra, couldn't notice Kakashi coming upwards from undergound until there was a few cantimeters left between kunai and his torso.



Itachi didn't notice when Kakashi was within distance. The panel indicate that he only noticed when Kakashi was emerging (like with Deva). Deva was waiting to use ST. 



Bookworm said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> 
> Most people that assume that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi use Itachi's statement about Tsukuyomi in pt1 and Zetsu's statement as evidence. The thing is, Zetsu's statement works both ways. If it's possible to break Tsukuyomi due to ability with the tool at one's disposal (the sharingan), it's also possible to keep a powerful Uchiha, who has 3 tomoe, from breaking Tsukuyomi with the tools at itachi's disposal (MS), at least according to the logic of Zetsu's statement.



Except there was nothing to imply Itachi held back, Zetsu indicated what was off with Itachi's performance and Sasuke remembered all the MS jutsu which were used at full force. Notice how Susanoo wasn't within the panels when Sasuke said Itachi tried to kill him with the MS. 



Sapherosth said:


> Only a retard would think Killer Bee broke Tsukuyomi.



Only a retard ignores the clear patterns and evidence that Bee broke Tsukuyomi. Ad-hominem doesn't make your arguments look credible, it shows you were to lazy, and perhaps a bit triggered, to make a substantive point. 

The Itachi fan agenda is obvious.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> - Sasuke having bigger potential is irrelevant, what's important is whether or not he was more capable with the sharingan in that battle than Itachi with his MS. Zetsu didn't know Itachi was throwing the fight, so he speculated as to why Sasuke won against Tsukuyomi.
> 
> - Than why did Itachi put out of Amaterasu than? If Itachi covered Sasuke whole body with Amaterasu it's different, than if he covered a wing. Itachi said himself that Sasuke was using Oro's kawarimi. None of this matters anyway, because Tobi said Itachi was holding back.



Yeah and since we don't know who was the better sharingan user you have no basis at all to claim that Sasuke shouldnt be able to break out of Tsukuyomi. It remains an assumption. Zetsu certainly disagrees and so do a lot of other characters regardless how often you try disregard that. 

He likely put out amaterasu cause he felt the backlash. We have seen Sasuke and Itachi holding their eye more than just once whenever they use MS. It's not a technique that you can maintain for long. I concede the point about Itachi's knowledge regarding Oro's techs if he indeed said that tho I am still not convinced that he held back his amaterasu. We know for a fact that you can put out the flames before it kills the enemy. And Obito's statement could easily refer to things like Itachi not using Susano'o and stuff.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except there was nothing to imply Itachi held back, Zetsu indicated what was off with Itachi's performance and Sasuke remembered all the MS jutsu which were used at full force. Notice how Susanoo wasn't within the panels when Sasuke said Itachi tried to kill him with the MS.


Itachi had no reason to go all out with Tsukuyomi and he didn't. This is evident by the relatively painless nature of the illusion he put on Sasuke in comparison to Kakashi. Not to mention if Itachi did decide to go all out and he accidently put Sasuke in a comma that wouldn't serve his goals.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yeah and since we don't know who was the better sharingan user you have no basis at all to claim that Sasuke shouldnt be able to break out of Tsukuyomi. It remains an assumption. Zetsu certainly disagrees and so do a lot of other characters regardless how often you try disregard that.
> 
> He likely put out amaterasu cause he felt the backlash. We have seen Sasuke and Itachi holding their eye more than just once whenever they use MS. It's not a technique that you can maintain for long. I concede the point about Itachi's knowledge regarding Oro's techs if he indeed said that tho I am still not convinced that he held back his amaterasu. We know for a fact that you can put out the flames before it kills the enemy. And Obito's statement could easily refer to things like Itachi not using Susano'o and stuff.



I do have basis for my claim. It's like I said:


Itachi had the much superior doujutsu
Itachi had the much superior genjutsu skill
Itachi used one of the strongest genjutsu there is
There's much more in Itachi's favor than Sasuke's. Not to mention that White Zetsu himself, said a regular sharingan is not suppose to be able to win against the Mangekyou.

It's unlikely that Itachi put out Amaterasu due to the backlash. Zetsu even commented that Itachi didn't want to destroy Sasuke's eyes.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 26, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> It implied that Itachi was holding back when Sasuke recalled the two times he was "almost killed" was when he was hit by Tsukuyomi & Amateratsu.
> 
> Obito explicitly stated that Sasuke would've died if Itachi had been serious.
> 
> How obvious do you need it to be?


Can you please show me the scan where Sasuke almost died from Tsukuyomi?


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## Quipchaque (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Itachi had no reason to go all out with Tsukuyomi and he didn't. This is evident by the relatively painless nature of the illusion he put on Sasuke in comparison to Kakashi. Not to mention if Itachi did decide to go all out and he accidently put Sasuke in a comma that would server his goals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes indeed but Itachi having superior dojutsu doesn't make him the better dojutsu user just like a high school kid getting a skateboard for pro skaters doesn't make him a pro skater. That's just common sense. For all we know Sasuke is just that exceptional that he doesn't need a mangekyo to break mangekyo genjutsu. Just look at Killer Bee he has no sharingan at all yet he can break Sasuke's Mangekyo genjutsu. Exceptions confirm the rule.

As I said if Itachi knows about the skin shedding ability he has nothing to fear even with a fully powered amaterasu. Also is there even anything about that amaterasu that looks like Itachi held back? He just put Sasuke on fire the same way he would do to others. There is nothing suggesting that it was somehow weaker than it should be.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Itachi had no reason to go all out with Tsukuyomi and he didn't. This is evident by the relatively painless nature of the illusion he put on Sasuke in comparison to Kakashi. Not to mention if Itachi did decide to go all out and he accidently put Sasuke in a comma that wouldn't serve his goals.



His reason for going all out would be to pressure Sasuke who could now handle Tsukuyomi.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yes indeed but Itachi having superior dojutsu doesn't make him the better dojutsu user just like a high school kid getting a skateboard for pro skaters doesn't make him a pro skater. That's just common sense. For all we know Sasuke is just that exceptional that he doesn't need a mangekyo to break mangekyo genjutsu. Just look at Killer Bee he has no sharingan at all yet he can break Sasuke's Mangekyo genjutsu. Exceptions confirm the rule.
> 
> As I said if Itachi knows about the skin shedding ability he has nothing to fear even with a fully powered amaterasu. Also is there even anything about that amaterasu that looks like Itachi held back? He just put Sasuke on fire the same way he would do to others. There is nothing suggesting that it was somehow weaker than it should be.


Itachi wouldn't be some high school kid with a pro skater's board. Itachi has much greater genjutsu skill than Sasuke as well as a better tool. 

Itachi didn't kill Sasuke with Amaterasu when he had the opportunity. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> His reason for going all out would be to pressure Sasuke who could now handle Tsukuyomi.


Itachi's reason for pressuring Sasuke during the fight was to bring out Oro, using Tsukuyomi wouldn't have aided that goal.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Itachi's reason for pressuring Sasuke during the fight was to bring out Oro, using Tsukuyomi wouldn't have aided that goal.



Tsukuyomi would help as Sasuke could handle it. Going all out with Susanoo wouldn't.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsukuyomi would help as Sasuke could handle it. Going all out with Susanoo wouldn't.


Tsukuyomi wouldn't help diminish Sasuke's chakra. Based on what are you saying he could handle it?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Tsukuyomi wouldn't help diminish Sasuke's chakra. Based on what are you saying he could handle it?



It would pressure Sasuke if it was all out. Based on the fact Sasuke inherently had superior chakra and trained his Sharingan for 3 years to specifically fight Itachi.

Overestimating Itachi here relies on underestimating Sasuke.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It would pressure Sasuke if it was all out. Based on the fact Sasuke inherently had superior chakra and trained his Sharingan for 3 years to specifically fight Itachi.
> 
> Overestimating Itachi here relies on underestimating Sasuke.


Tsukuyomi literally would do nothing to bring out Oro from Sasuke, no matter if it's use was all out or not, which was the point of pressuring Sasuke. In what way was Sasuke's chakra superior? Itachi has been training his MS for 7 years by than and Sasuke planned out that entire fight against Sasuke, according to Tobi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Tsukuyomi literally would do nothing to bring out Oro from Sasuke, no matter if it's use was all out or not, which was the point of pressuring Sasuke. In what way was Sasuke's chakra superior? Itachi has been training his MS for 7 years by than and Sasuke planned out that entire fight against Sasuke, according to Tobi.



The idea was to pressure Sasuke and deplete his chakra. Using the Sharingan to counter illusions, obviously Tsukuyomi as well, isn't something which would be chakra free. 

Sasuke had Indra's chakra, for starters and Oro noted Sasuke's chakra potential was greater. 

Itachi planned the details of the fight, which going by him is going all out whole not using Susanoo to attack.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The idea was to pressure Sasuke and deplete his chakra. Using the Sharingan to counter illusions, obviously Tsukuyomi as well, isn't something which would be chakra free.
> 
> Sasuke had Indra's chakra, for starters and Oro noted Sasuke's chakra potential was greater.
> 
> Itachi planned the details of the fight, which going by him is going all out whole not using Susanoo to attack.


It's never been shown or implied that breaking genjutsu would cost chakra. What is special about Indra's chakra and how does that effect breaking genjutsu?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> It's never been shown or implied that breaking genjutsu would cost chakra. What is special about Indra's chakra and how does that effect breaking genjutsu?



The strain on Sasuke suggests breaking a powerful illusion costs chakra, especially if Sasuke's using the Sharingan:



We've known for a while that chakra quality effects output, it was enough for Obito to deduce that Sasuke's chakra would surpass Itachi's. Sasuke's comparable to Madara.

Tobirama indicated how a Sharingan can get strong:



A lot we need to overlook if we want to say Sasuke didn't break Tsukuyomi.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The strain on Sasuke suggests breaking a powerful illusion costs chakra, especially if Sasuke's using the Sharingan:
> 
> *Spoiler*:


All that pic suggest, is that getting your eye taken out is painful.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We've known for a while that chakra quality effects output, it was enough for Obito to deduce that Sasuke's chakra would surpass Itachi's. Sasuke's comparable to Madara.
> 
> Tobirama indicated how a Sharingan can get strong:
> 
> ...



It was never implied that it was possessing Indra's chakra was what made Madara's eyes powerful. Tobirama attributed Madara's eye power to something different from Indra's chakra. Even if we assume that Indra's chakra does help break genjutsu, it doesn't mean a 3 tomoe will break MS genjutsu.

There's a lot more we need to overlook to say Sasuke did break Tsukuyomi. Namely:


Itachi has a much superior doujutsu
Itachi has much superior genjutsu skills
Itachi used one of the most powerful genjutsu there is.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> All that pic suggest, is that getting your eye taken out is painful.



The page suggested that there was strain to break the illusion. Itachi also demonstrated that Tsukuyomi being broken is painful.



> It was never implied that it was possessing Indra's chakra was what made Madara's eyes powerful. Tobirama attributed Madara's eye power to something different from Indra's chakra. Even if we assume that Indra's chakra does help break genjutsu, it doesn't mean a 3 tomoe will break MS genjutsu.
> 
> There's a lot more we need to overlook to say Sasuke did break Tsukuyomi. Namely:
> 
> ...



It was Madara's chakra which made him strong. Indra's chakra is the same chakra as Madara/Sasuke's, going by Tobirama it'd have an effect. Strong emotions = stronger eyes. Basically everything they need to break Tsukuyomi. 

Your points can be countered quite easily:

1. Sasuke saw through every illusion.
2. Based on what, being able to control people over long distances?
3. So did Sasuke, but like Itachi's it was overcome.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It was Madara's chakra which made him strong. Indra's chakra is the same chakra as Madara/Sasuke's, going by Tobirama it'd have an effect. Strong emotions = stronger eyes. Basically everything they need to break Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Your points can be countered quite easily:
> 
> ...



1. My bad I meant to say Itachi had the stronger doujutsu there, not genjutsu
2. There's that and the fact he can control multiple people, the fact Shikaku and Ao implied he was the only one who could do it, the fact he had a 5 in the DB and the fact he was stated to be as good as Kurenai. 
3. What extremely powerful illusion did Sasuke use against Itachi, in their battle, that was broken? Sasuke never used an illusion of the same caliber of Tsukuyomi with 3 tomoe.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> 1. My bad I meant to say Itachi had the stronger doujutsu there, not genjutsu
> 2. There's that and the fact he can control multiple people, the fact Shikaku and Ao implied he was the only one who could do it, the fact he had a 5 in the DB and the fact he was stated to be as good as Kurenai.
> 3. What extremely powerful illusion did Sasuke use against Itachi, in their battle, that was broken? Sasuke never used an illusion of the same caliber of Tsukuyomi with 3 tomoe.



1. This is the appropriate time to mention the Zetsu line with the stone and shuriken. 

2. This has no bearing on Sasuke's ability to break Tsukuyomi.

3. Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, it was broken. Sasuke used it on Bee, it was also overcome. Both held their eye when the illusion broke.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. This is the appropriate time to mention the Zetsu line with the stone and shuriken.
> 
> 2. This has no bearing on Sasuke's ability to break Tsukuyomi.
> 
> 3. Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, it was broken. Sasuke used it on Bee, it was also overcome. Both held their eye when the illusion broke.


1. Zetsu line works both ways
2. It does have bearing on Sasuke's ability to break genjutsu, the better Itachi is with genjutsu, the harder it becomes to deal with his genjutsu. 
3. You believe he used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, I don't for reasons we into in the Nagato vs Tsukuyomi thread.


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## Baroxio (Aug 26, 2018)

"stated to be as good as Kurenai"


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> 1. Zetsu line works both ways
> 2. It does have bearing on Sasuke's ability to break genjutsu, the better Itachi is with genjutsu, the harder it becomes to deal with his genjutsu.
> 3. You believe he used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, I don't for reasons we into in the Nagato vs Tsukuyomi thread.



1. Context indicates it works in Sasuke's favour.

2. It doesn't when Sasuke consistently broke through all illusions Itachi used, including Tsukuyomi. 

3. Itachi _did _use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 26, 2018)

So trolling goes from saying Itachi was holding back on Tsukuyomi to saying Itachi didn't even use Tsukuyomi?


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. Context indicates it works in Sasuke's favour.
> 
> 2. It doesn't when Sasuke consistently broke through all illusions Itachi used, including Tsukuyomi.
> 
> 3. Itachi _did _use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke.


1. Context works in Itachi's favor. He was the one holding back, he was the one with MS, he was the one who had nothing to gain from going all out with Tsukuyomi. 
2. This point is in contention. It's illogical to use the point that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi to prove Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi. 
3. My bad I meant to say you believe Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Bee I don't.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> 1. Context works in Itachi's favor. He was the one holding back, he was the one with MS, he was the one who had nothing to gain from going all out with Tsukuyomi.
> 2. This point is in contention. It's illogical to use the point that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi to prove Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi.
> 3. My bad I meant to say you believe Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Bee I don't.



1. That involves misinterpreting that. Itachi held back, we saw him not using Susanoo. That's a big deal. Anything beyond that is unsupported. 

2. We saw it happen, however.

3. Even though all the relevant patterns lined up and Kagutsuchi being obtained after Susanoo. There's too much to ignore, IMO.


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. That involves misinterpreting that. Itachi held back, we saw him not using Susanoo. That's a big deal. Anything beyond that is unsupported.
> 
> 2. We saw it happen, however.
> 
> 3. Even though all the relevant patterns lined up and Kagutsuchi being obtained after Susanoo. There's too much to ignore, IMO.


1. It's your interpretation that Itachi only held back with Susanoo, that's not supported. Itachi held back with Tsukuyomi, as evidenced by the relatively painless illusion in comparison to what he used on Kakashi.
2. It's like I said, it's illogical to use that point to prove that very same point.
3. This is not supported. When was it said that a MS user has to awaken the two respective eye jutsu, before unlocking Susanoo? Even if Sasuke did have a MS jutsu there no reason it has to be Tsukuyomi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> 1. It's your interpretation that Itachi only held back with Susanoo, that's not supported. Itachi held back with Tsukuyomi, as evidenced by the relatively painless illusion in comparison to what he used on Kakashi.
> 3. This is not supported. When was it said that a MS user has to awaken the two respective eye jutsu, before unlocking Susanoo?



1. That notion is supported, Susanoo was the only jutsu not used to attack Sasuke. Sasuke was made to believe he was going to lose his eyes for the reason Itachi killed his clan. Either way it doesn't matter seeing as Zetsu said Sasuke never felt the effects before he broke it right away. Itachi going all out = using Susanoo.

2. The databook said and Sasuke said it:


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## Bookworm (Aug 26, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. That notion is supported, Susanoo was the only jutsu not used to attack Sasuke. Sasuke was made to believe he was going to lose his eyes for the reason Itachi killed his clan. Either way it doesn't matter seeing as Zetsu said Sasuke never felt the effects before he broke it right away. Itachi going all out = using Susanoo.


Itachi making him think he was going to lose his eyes, is a weak form of torture. Sasuke did feel the effects of Tsukuyomi, all Itachi did was take out his eye and Sasuke felt that. He didn't feel more than that, but that really doesn't matter. 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 2. The databook said and Sasuke said it:
> 
> *Spoiler*:


It said it could be used by those who "awakened" the MS in both eyes. It said nothing about having to the respective MS powers of each eye first, just that the ninja has to MS in both eyes. Meaning Kakashi couldn't get the Susanoo, because he only had one eye 

I had my suspicions, but...you've got to be trolling


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## The_Conqueror (Aug 26, 2018)

rom the series point of view that was Itachis potential i guess. He was able to show all his jutsus unlike many characters and unlike other ninjas he was way past his prime. In the end he even struggled with illness and loosing his eye.


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## Trojan (Aug 26, 2018)

We have seen itachi's full power. He is one of the characters that got a huge time-panel and got in a fair number of matches
that are more than most characters, if not all none-Naruto/Sasuke fights in the manga. 

Despite all that, people take his "feat" or in some cases, lack-there-of and blow it out of the window to make him much stronger
than he actually is. Placing him 1 or 2 tiers above his actual level. 

This is mainly based on what they think "he should be at" rather what he actually is. 
and every one of them has a different scale to how much his alleged "illness" affected his over-all power for example. 

or how they think a specific jutsu of his should be, rather than how it is. For example, itachi's megatama according to his fans
are as strong as Naruto's FRS, or B's TBB "because it was used alongside them. Therefore, it must be as powerful" 

where in the manga they were shown to be as strong as an explosion tag, but you will never see any itachi's fan acknowledging that

and the list goes on....


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## Quipchaque (Aug 27, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Itachi wouldn't be some high school kid with a pro skater's board. Itachi has much greater genjutsu skill than Sasuke as well as a better tool.
> 
> Itachi didn't kill Sasuke with Amaterasu when he had the opportunity.
> 
> ...



That was just an example. Of course he wouldn't be a kid I just tried to illustrate my point in the most obvious way and I'm sure you get what I mean.

Having the better tools doesn't mean you can use them better. For all we know Sasuke is much better at dispelling genjutsu, reading fast movements, conserving Chakra for the Sharingan etc. That is why Zetsu's explanation is very plausible and shouldn't be dismissed just for the sake of hyping Itachi. I say it again Sasuke was always meant to surpass Itachi's Tsukuyomi. It serves absolutely no purpose for the author to tell us he wouldn't be able to in their final battle just because Itachi was still overall stronger. The outcome of the battle remains the same and the strength difference is barely affected either. Which is why I'm fairly certain that Zetsu's statement is accurate. It makes sense and fits into the overall narrative.

I also do not buy that Itachi is such a perfect actor that he can synch the dissolving of Tsukuyomi with Sasuke's counterattack so perfectly and that all his reactions are just fake without anyone noticing even while in his bad condition. He was barely able to fight properly, could barely see anything and he sure as hell can't afford to get overpowered on purpose so easily. We saw how quickly he lost control of the battle cause of the supposedly fake Tsukuyomi. You can not convince me that Itachi wanted that. He had to make sure he is the one who dominates the fight to get through to Orochimaru. Which is why his immediate response was Amaterasu to make up for his failed genjutsu attempt. He realized he was running out of options.

The amaterasu point I already addressed. You said it's been confirmed in the Manga that Itachi knows about the skin tech so he has no reason to pull his punch there. And what you said about Chakra usage while dispelling genjutsu is also wrong. Sharingan uses Chakra and dispelling genjutsu requires you to overpower the others Chakra and conveniently Sasuke is the one who has been hyped for exactly that which is why it makes no sense that you keep bringing up that Zetsu's statement works both ways- it doesn't.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 27, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Itachi making him think he was going to lose his eyes, is a weak form of torture. Sasuke did feel the effects of Tsukuyomi, all Itachi did was take out his eye and Sasuke felt that. He didn't feel more than that, but that really doesn't matter.
> 
> It said it could be used by those who "awakened" the MS in both eyes. It said nothing about having to the respective MS powers of each eye first, just that the ninja has to MS in both eyes. Meaning Kakashi couldn't get the Susanoo, because he only had one eye
> 
> I had my suspicions, but...you've got to be trolling




Tsukuyomi is just meant to overwhelm, which is what Itachi did- but as Zetsu said the illusion failed from the beginning. You've literally got nothing here except your feeling that Itachi held back anything that wasn't Susanoo. 

The person that awakened the MS in both eyes. Prior to facing Killer B Sasuke didn't have Amaterasu, hence we got the build up of him awakening it in chapter 414, which is consistent with Tobirama's explanation of how Uchiha get powerful. After that, we got Susanoo which he wanted to test. Awakened the Mangekyou in both eyes = awakened the power in both eyes. Hence we didn't see Susanoo against Bee, we saw Susanoo after Sasuke awakened the power in his right MS.

Don't engage in ad-hominem, it is a lazy tactic to use when you've been cornered. Though, I also wouldn't advice you to throw stones in glass houses since your argument relies heavily on ignoring a ton of elements and context.


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## Bookworm (Aug 27, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That was just an example. Of course he wouldn't be a kid I just tried to illustrate my point in the most obvious way and I'm sure you get what I mean.
> 
> Having the better tools doesn't mean you can use them better. For all we know Sasuke is much better at dispelling genjutsu, reading fast movements, conserving Chakra for the Sharingan etc. That is why Zetsu's explanation is very plausible and shouldn't be dismissed just for the sake of hyping Itachi. I say it again Sasuke was always meant to surpass Itachi's Tsukuyomi. It serves absolutely no purpose for the author to tell us he wouldn't be able to in their final battle just because Itachi was still overall stronger. The outcome of the battle remains the same and the strength difference is barely affected either. Which is why I'm fairly certain that Zetsu's statement is accurate. It makes sense and fits into the overall narrative.
> 
> ...



- You're making a lot of assumptions to support your argument. What indicates that Sasuke is better at dispelling genjutsu? Don't say that he broke Tsukuyomi, to support your argument as to why he broke Tsukuyomi either.

 - Itachi was a great liar and more importantly a double agent, of course he had to be a great actor.

- Itachi obviously thought that the first Amaterasu would destroy Sasuke's eyes, at the very least, which is why he closed his eyes when he used Amaterasu. Zetsu said this too.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsukuyomi is just meant to overwhelm, which is what Itachi did- but as Zetsu said the illusion failed from the beginning. You've literally got nothing here except your feeling that Itachi held back anything that wasn't Susanoo.
> 
> The person that awakened the MS in both eyes. Prior to facing Killer B Sasuke didn't have Amaterasu, hence we got the build up of him awakening it in chapter 414, which is consistent with Tobirama's explanation of how Uchiha get powerful. After that, we got Susanoo which he wanted to test. Awakened the Mangekyou in both eyes = awakened the power in both eyes. Hence we didn't see Susanoo against Bee, we saw Susanoo after Sasuke awakened the power in his right MS.
> 
> Don't engage in ad-hominem, it is a lazy tactic to use when you've been cornered. Though, I also wouldn't advice you to throw stones in glass houses since your argument relies heavily on ignoring a ton of elements and context.



Was I wrong when I said that the illusion Sasuke experienced was relatively painless compared to the comma inducing illusion Kakashi experienced? Tsukuyomi is meant for torturing the opponent, all Itachi did against Sasuke was waste time, until he took Sasuke eye out. Itachi could have immediately tortured to the best of his ability, meaning he could made it extremely painful thus greatly impeding focus, but he didn't and I think you know all that.

Not sure where in the manga you're getting this: Awakened the Mangekyou in both eyes = awakened power in both eyes.

It's not ad hominem, I'm just noting, that I genuinely think you may be trolling me.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 27, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Was I wrong when I said that the illusion Sasuke experienced was relatively painless compared to the comma inducing illusion Kakashi experienced? Tsukuyomi is meant for torturing the opponent, all Itachi did against Sasuke was waste time, until he took Sasuke eye out. Itachi could have immediately tortured to the best of his ability, meaning he could made it extremely painful thus greatly impeding focus, but he didn't and I think you know all that.
> 
> Not sure where in the manga you're getting this: Awakened the Mangekyou in both eyes = awakened power in both eyes.
> 
> It's not ad hominem, I'm just noting, that I genuinely think you may be trolling me.



I'm not going to get into "was this torture or was that torture" when firstly Sasuke broke the illusion before it took place as per Zetsu and secondly you've shown nothing to indicate the illusions themselves influence how strong Tsukuyomi will be.
If you want to go down this rabbit hole, you can say Itachi used the most sophisticated Tsukuyomi on Sasuke which matched a potential reality as opposed to showing him a blatant illusion. If Sasuke caved, he'd lose, if Sasuke realised he was under the illusion he'd win.

That's the general idea of it otherwise we would have seen Susanoo and Amaterasu used on Bee from the beginning.

Weak justification, especially when I'm the one citing things to support my point.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 27, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> - You're making a lot of assumptions to support your argument. What indicates that Sasuke is better at dispelling genjutsu? Don't say that he broke Tsukuyomi, to support your argument as to why he broke Tsukuyomi either.
> 
> - Itachi was a great liar and more importantly a double agent, of course he had to be a great actor.
> 
> ...



-Correction: we BOTH make assumptions here. You assume Itachi is good enough at genjutsu to stop Sasuke, I assume he isn't. Although I wasn't even trying to state that as a fact but just further elaborating my point. Long story short we still havent heard any plausible evidence that suggests Sasuke can't break Tsukuyomi from you. Having mangekyo sharingan is not a reason, having stronger genjutsu is not a reason and having stronger dojutsu isn't either. You are merely listing things that Itachi is good at but we are talking about what Sasuke is good at. Which is suggested to be using the base sharingan to a far above average efficiency and going beyond its typical limits. As long as you can't show evidence to disprove that your argument is baseless.

-As I said great actor yes but he was in no condition to put on an act is what I'm saying. Let me just stab you quickly in the back and I will then ask you to perform on a stage... We will see how it goes. Hint: you definitely won't look very professional.

- no he didn't think that. You are clutching for straws.


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## Bookworm (Aug 27, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm not going to get into "was this torture or was that torture" when firstly Sasuke broke the illusion before it took place as per Zetsu and secondly you've shown nothing to indicate the illusions themselves influence how strong Tsukuyomi will be.
> If you want to go down this rabbit hole, you can say Itachi used the most sophisticated Tsukuyomi on Sasuke which matched a potential reality as opposed to showing him a blatant illusion. If Sasuke caved, he'd lose, if Sasuke realised he was under the illusion he'd win.
> 
> That's the general idea of it otherwise we would have seen Susanoo and Amaterasu used on Bee from the beginning.
> ...


There's no need to indicate if the illusion themselves influence how strong Tsukuyomi will be. Itachi had no reason to go all out with Tsukuyomi. How would Sasuke lose from Itachi taking out his eyes in a illusion? What would be purpose of Itachi making Sasuke lose like that? 

Even if Sasuke did somehow have 4 MS abilities, there's no reason one of them has to be Tsukuyomi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 27, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> There's no need to indicate if the illusion themselves influence how strong Tsukuyomi will be. Itachi had no reason to go all out with Tsukuyomi. How would Sasuke lose from Itachi taking out his eyes in a illusion? What would be purpose of Itachi making Sasuke lose like that?
> 
> Even if Sasuke did somehow have 4 MS abilities, there's no reason one of them has to be Tsukuyomi.



He had a reason, Sasuke was strong and he needed to pressure Sasuke. Just as Danzo lost to Sasuke, he couldn't tell Genjutsu from reality. Plus if Sasuke was mind fucked by Tsukuyomi, Itachi could use it to control Sasuke and force Oro out.

There is:
1. Tsukuyomi was what he used on Bee, the left eye followed by the illusion followed by the inverted panel followed by the holding the Tskuyomi eye when the illusion broke.

2. Amaterasu which was awakened vs Bee.
2a. Applying spatial manipulation to Amaterasu provides Kagutsuchi i.e. it is the same jutsu, but Sasuke can manipulate the Enton unlike Itachi.

3. Susanoo was obtained because Sasuke had awakened the powers in both eyes.


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## Bookworm (Aug 27, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He had a reason, Sasuke was strong and he needed to pressure Sasuke. Just as Danzo lost to Sasuke, he couldn't tell Genjutsu from reality. Plus if Sasuke was mind fucked by Tsukuyomi, Itachi could use it to control Sasuke and force Oro out.
> 
> There is:
> 1. Tsukuyomi was what he used on Bee, the left eye followed by the illusion followed by the inverted panel followed by the holding the Tskuyomi eye when the illusion broke.
> ...


Itachi needed to pressure Sasuke specifically to release Oro from Sasuke.

Danzo lost to Sasuke because he thought his sharingan was open when it was closed. How would Itachi using Tsukuyomi to take Sasuke's eye be similar to that? If Sasuke was still in the illusion, where he was blind and he somehow released and Oro and killed Itachi (which was also one of Itachi's goals for Sasuke), he would know Itachi did something to him in that battle.

1. Inverted panel could be something that is trait of some or all or MS genjutsu, that can be used, but doesn't have to be.

2. It's a new power unlocked in the other eye, IIRC Sasuke said that.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He had a reason, Sasuke was strong and he needed to pressure Sasuke. Just as Danzo lost to Sasuke, he couldn't tell Genjutsu from reality. Plus if Sasuke was mind fucked by Tsukuyomi, Itachi could use it to control Sasuke and force Oro out.
> 
> There is:
> 1. Tsukuyomi was what he used on Bee, the left eye followed by the illusion followed by the inverted panel followed by the holding the Tskuyomi eye when the illusion broke.
> ...



Tbh I don't think the genjutsu Sasuke used against bee is tsukuyomi either. 

-each mangekyo has only 1 ability
-sasuke called it sharingan genjutsu while fighting kabuto
-he didn't inherit the same abilities as seen with amaterasu and the missing spiritual weapons
-danzo implied Sasuke's genjutsu is different and weaker despite sasuke supposedly having the same eye power
-bee broke free from the genjutsu the same way team Kakashi suggested you can't when up against tsukuyomi

That is why I don't believe sasuke has the same power in his left eye.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 28, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Itachi needed to pressure Sasuke specifically to release Oro from Sasuke.
> 
> Danzo lost to Sasuke because he thought his sharingan was open when it was closed. How would Itachi using Tsukuyomi to take Sasuke's eye be similar to that? If Sasuke was still in the illusion, where he was blind and he somehow released and Oro and killed Itachi (which was also one of Itachi's goals for Sasuke), he would know Itachi did something to him in that battle.
> 
> ...



Itachi used Tsukuyomi in a way which would be difficult for Sasuke to tell if he was in an illusion or not while having the powerful effects of Tsukuyomi. Including having Itachi clones binding him when he thought he was free. That doesn't lessen the power of the illusion, Tsukuyomi will still have the power Itachi wants it to have.

1. Except we've only seen it with Tsukuyomi, especially when the Bee part where only Sasuke and Itachi held their eye when the illusion was countered. Then there's the fact Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo. 

2. But it is still mere spatial manipulation on Amaterasu which was obtained _after _Susanoo was obtained. We can only deduce that Tsukuyomi was the other jutsu.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Tbh I don't think the genjutsu Sasuke used against bee is tsukuyomi either.
> 
> -each mangekyo has only 1 ability
> -sasuke called it sharingan genjutsu while fighting kabuto
> ...



Sasuke didn't use the same illusion on Itachi that he used on Bee. 

Sasuke's V4 Susanoo wasn't used in battle very long, and V4 Susanoo wasn't used much in battle apart from Itachi's. If it was different, then we'd have seen them. 

Danzo _never _implied Sasuke's Genjutsu was weaker, I'm unsure how posters interpreted Tsukuyomi vs Genjutsu as Sasuke Genjutsu vs Itachi Genjutsu. 

Bee is a perfect Jinchuriki unlike Kakashi and co. There's also the fact Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo meaning you can only deduce that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi used Tsukuyomi in a way which would be difficult for Sasuke to tell if he was in an illusion or not while having the powerful effects of Tsukuyomi. Including having Itachi clones binding him when he thought he was free. That doesn't lessen the power of the illusion, Tsukuyomi will still have the power Itachi wants it to have.
> 
> 1. Except we've only seen it with Tsukuyomi, especially when the Bee part where only Sasuke and Itachi held their eye when the illusion was countered. Then there's the fact Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo.
> 
> ...



I'm a bit lost what you mean in the first two paragraphs tbh but about danzo and bee:

-Danzo mentioned something along the lines of Sasuke's genjutsu being a far cry away from Itachi's tsukuyomi cause it was capable to manipulate time. He made it sound like Sasuke's genjutsu is different and weaker. Which would imply that it's not tsukuyomi.

-Bee may be a perfect jinchuriki but that isn't the point. The problem why Bee should be unable to break a tsukuyomi is that he resorted to the technique that needs a bystander to infuse their Chakra into your body. However that technique doesn't work against tsukuyomi as Kakashi explained because the bystanders can't pull that off quick enough against a genjutsu that controls the flow of time. It's instantaneous and only the person hit by tsuku is able to break it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 28, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I'm a bit lost what you mean in the first two paragraphs tbh but about danzo and bee:
> 
> -Danzo mentioned something along the lines of Sasuke's genjutsu being a far cry away from Itachi's tsukuyomi cause it was capable to manipulate time. He made it sound like Sasuke's genjutsu is different and weaker. Which would imply that it's not tsukuyomi.
> 
> -Bee may be a perfect jinchuriki but that isn't the point. The problem why Bee should be unable to break a tsukuyomi is that he resorted to the technique that needs a bystander to infuse their Chakra into your body. However that technique doesn't work against tsukuyomi as Kakashi explained because the bystanders can't pull that off quick enough against a genjutsu that controls the flow of time. It's instantaneous and only the person hit by tsuku is able to break it.



Are you citing the parts aimed at Bookwork's post?

- He said Sasuke's _Sharingan Genjutsu _was a farcry from the jutsu _Tsukuyomi _not Sasuke's Genjutsu is inferior to Itachi's Genjutsu. He stated what we knew Tsukuyomi>Sharingan Genjutsu, but he told us why that's the case. Sasuke didn't use Tsukuyomi at the start of the Danzo battle. 

- His partner is internal, the moment he realised he was under Genjutsu he'd get out of it. You can use Kakashi who never tried that method on Tsukuyomi, however, Bee broke it. In fact Sasuke broke it too. We shouldn't mistake its potency for Infinite Tsukuyomi which most seem to be doing.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Are you citing the parts aimed at Bookwork's post?
> 
> - He said Sasuke's _Sharingan Genjutsu _was a farcry from the jutsu _Tsukuyomi _not Sasuke's Genjutsu is inferior to Itachi's Genjutsu. He stated what we knew Tsukuyomi>Sharingan Genjutsu, but he told us why that's the case. Sasuke didn't use Tsukuyomi at the start of the Danzo battle.
> 
> - His partner is internal, the moment he realised he was under Genjutsu he'd get out of it. You can use Kakashi who never tried that method on Tsukuyomi, however, Bee broke it. In fact Sasuke broke it too. We shouldn't mistake its potency for Infinite Tsukuyomi which most seem to be doing.



It was a mangekyo sharingan jutsu that Sasuke used against Danzo. Which you said is likely Tsukuyomi, right? And Danzo basically told us it is not.

-yes but his partner clearly hasnt been hit by the genjutsu so the time distortion effect should block out the 8-tails just like anyone else.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 28, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> It was a mangekyo sharingan jutsu that Sasuke used against Danzo. Which you said is likely Tsukuyomi, right? And Danzo basically told us it is not.
> 
> -yes but his partner clearly hasnt been hit by the genjutsu so the time distortion effect should block out the 8-tails just like anyone else.



Sasuke used both eyes, that gave away that he used normal Genjutsu. Against Bee, he cast it from his right eye. Danzo never compared their Genjutsu abilities.

Time distortion didn't effect Sasuke when Itachi used it to free Sasuke. Time distortion is something the user can choose to employ, much like the function to control people. If you want to use the novels, Sasuke actually demonstrated time manipulation with Tsukuyomi there.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke used both eyes, that gave away that he used normal Genjutsu. Against Bee, he cast it from his right eye. Danzo never compared their Genjutsu abilities.
> 
> Time distortion didn't effect Sasuke when Itachi used it to free Sasuke. Time distortion is something the user can choose to employ, much like the function to control people. If you want to use the novels, Sasuke actually demonstrated time manipulation with Tsukuyomi there.



OK that is a fair point but why would Sasuke prefer to use normal genjutsu if he can use tsukuyomi? Also I still don't see a point why Sasuke never calls his genjutsu tsukuyomi, why it never damages anyone and why he can't manipulate time with it. There are way too many contradictions.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 28, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> OK that is a fair point but why would Sasuke prefer to use normal genjutsu if he can use tsukuyomi? Also I still don't see a point why Sasuke never calls his genjutsu tsukuyomi, why it never damages anyone and why he can't manipulate time with it. There are way too many contradictions.



On Danzo? To confirm Genjutsu _can _work on Danzo while he's defying reality. Itachi hasn't always called his Genjutsu Tsukuyomi either. He never shouted "Tsukuyomi" when he used it on Kakashi or Sasuke. 

Now how are you defining damage? Mental damage isn't permanent, that's why Sasuke and Kakashi are up and kicking. It is also why Sasuke didn't drop when Itachi used it to release Sasuke from Kabuto's illusion. 

Unless you're going to tell me you can measure time between manga panels, your time point is useless. Bee looked at his Tsukuyomi eye, instantly got hit with the illusion. If you ignore the panels in-between it is literally Sasuke looked and Bee fell. What you'd expect with Tsukuyomi. 

Those contradictions aren't credible when [1] you just say "mental damage" without saying why Itachi's did what Sasuke didn't and [2] when you talk about time manipulation and fail to demonstrate how you measure time between manga panels. 

And finally the Susanoo problem: Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo. So Tsukuyomi logically is the jutsu Sasuke had alongside Amaterasu to awaken it.


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## Bookworm (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi used Tsukuyomi in a way which would be difficult for Sasuke to tell if he was in an illusion or not while having the powerful effects of Tsukuyomi. Including having Itachi clones binding him when he thought he was free. That doesn't lessen the power of the illusion, Tsukuyomi will still have the power Itachi wants it to have.
> 
> 1. Except we've only seen it with Tsukuyomi, especially when the Bee part where only Sasuke and Itachi held their eye when the illusion was countered. Then there's the fact Kagutsuchi was obtained after Susanoo.
> 
> 2. But it is still mere spatial manipulation on Amaterasu which was obtained _after _Susanoo was obtained. We can only deduce that Tsukuyomi was the other jutsu.


So you believe Itachi intended to win with Tsukuyomi?

1. It's possible MS genjutsu, have the option of using black and white imagery, I mean it's only a color change.


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## Bookworm (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> On Danzo? To confirm Genjutsu _can _work on Danzo while he's defying reality. Itachi hasn't always called his Genjutsu Tsukuyomi either. He never shouted "Tsukuyomi" when he used it on Kakashi or Sasuke.
> 
> Now how are you defining damage? Mental damage isn't permanent, that's why Sasuke and Kakashi are up and kicking. It is also why Sasuke didn't drop when Itachi used it to release Sasuke from Kabuto's illusion.
> 
> ...


When Itachi used Tsukuyomi, it was indicated he used Tsukuyomi, because Itachi would either say it's lasting for a day+ or he say it's Tsukuyomi. Sasuke did neither.

Why would Sasuke put Bee in an illusion that's meant to restrain Bee for days? He had no reason to do that.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> On Danzo? To confirm Genjutsu _can _work on Danzo while he's defying reality. Itachi hasn't always called his Genjutsu Tsukuyomi either. He never shouted "Tsukuyomi" when he used it on Kakashi or Sasuke.
> 
> Now how are you defining damage? Mental damage isn't permanent, that's why Sasuke and Kakashi are up and kicking. It is also why Sasuke didn't drop when Itachi used it to release Sasuke from Kabuto's illusion.
> 
> ...



OK the danzo argument is true, sasuke even said that or danzo or whoever. There are still illogical parts tho. It's true Itachi didn't always call his genjutsu tsukuyomi but in Sasuke's case it is literally never. You would think if we as reader should understand with absolute certainty that Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi it would be called as such at least once. Same thing for the time distortion. The reason I know Sasuke can't do that is a) because Danzo said that and b) it has never been indicated in any way that Sasuke can.

The damage isn't permanent, of course not however there was never any damage in the first place. Only illusions which is not how tsukuyomi works nor how it would ever be used. The whole point of this jutsu is to torture people for as long as possible without interference and with real pain.

I didn't say that the genjutsu against bee wasn't immediately activated. I'm saying you can't interfere with it with help from someone else because by the time you do it is already too late. So if Eight tails can bail out Bee anyway then that can only mean bee wasn't captured in a time manipulating genjutsu which again is a defining trait of tsukuyomi.

About kagutsuchi Im kinda lost here again cause I'm not too sure how you can tell that Sasuke obtained Kagutsuchi after he awakened susano'o?

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 28, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> So you believe Itachi intended to win with Tsukuyomi?
> 
> 1. It's possible MS genjutsu, have the option of using black and white imagery, I mean it's only a color change.



Yes. Literally nothing indicates that. We know he wasn't planning to win the fight overall seeing as he held back Susanoo. We know how much of a difference Susanoo make.s 

1. Having it at some point tells us it is Tsukuyomi. 



Bookworm said:


> When Itachi used Tsukuyomi, it was indicated he used Tsukuyomi, because Itachi would either say it's lasting for a day+ or he say it's Tsukuyomi. Sasuke did neither.
> 
> Why would Sasuke put Bee in an illusion that's meant to restrain Bee for days? He had no reason to do that.



That's because Itachi wanted to use the time function, unlike times where it wasn't needed like when he broke Sasuke out of Kabuto's illusion or when he used it on Sasuke in the Uchiha battle. Sasuke did what Itachi did to him in battle, but made it less subtle because of the feathers. 

Tsukuyomi isn't limited to restraining victims for days as we've seen. He didn't tell Sasuke he was going to take his eyes for 1000 years.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 28, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> OK the danzo argument is true, sasuke even said that or danzo or whoever. There are still illogical parts tho. It's true Itachi didn't always call his genjutsu tsukuyomi but in Sasuke's case it is literally never. You would think if we as reader should understand with absolute certainty that Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi it would be called as such at least once. Same thing for the time distortion. The reason I know Sasuke can't do that is a) because Danzo said that and b) it has never been indicated in any way that Sasuke can.
> 
> The damage isn't permanent, of course not however there was never any damage in the first place. Only illusions which is not how tsukuyomi works nor how it would ever be used. The whole point of this jutsu is to torture people for as long as possible without interference and with real pain.
> 
> ...



Sasuke barely used it, that's why. Itachi never even used it against his foes in top tier battles. 
a] Danzo never said Sasuke can't use Tsukuyomi b] Killer B vs Sasuke

Torture isn't its main function. It can manipulate the victim's perception of time and even control them. Itachi never used all these functions at once. 

Apparently that isn't the case. You could argue those features binded Bee for a long time, Sasuke just didn't state how long. 

Sasuke could never apply spatial manipulation on the Amaterasu flames until the Five Kage Summit arc when he fought Ay. The databook confirms what we saw in the manga that Sasuke was able to use it during the 5 Kage Summit. 

We saw Sasuke use Tsukuyomi with his right eye, then we saw the build up leading to him awakening Amaterasu in his left eye. Which then led to the thing he wanted to test (Susanoo):


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## Bookworm (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes. Literally nothing indicates that. We know he wasn't planning to win the fight overall seeing as he held back Susanoo. We know how much of a difference Susanoo make.s
> 
> 1. Having it at some point tells us it is Tsukuyomi.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe, that if Sasuke was mind fucked by Tsukuyomi, Itachi could use it to control Sasuke and force Oro out, right? This is my response: "If Sasuke was still in Tsukuyomi, when Itachi took out both eyes, causing blindness and Itachi somehow released Oro and than controlled Sasuke to kill Itachi, Sasuke would know Itachi did something to him in that battle. It would defeat Itachi's purpose to try to win with Tsukuyomi.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's because Itachi wanted to use the time function, unlike times where it wasn't needed like when he broke Sasuke out of Kabuto's illusion or when he used it on Sasuke in the Uchiha battle. Sasuke did what Itachi did to him in battle, but made it less subtle because of the feathers.
> 
> Tsukuyomi isn't limited to restraining victims for days as we've seen. He didn't tell Sasuke he was going to take his eyes for 1000 years.


So you agree that nothing indicates that Sasuke used time dilation against Bee? Itachi did say "My Tsukuyomi, you..." afterwards.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 28, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> So correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe, that if Sasuke was mind fucked by Tsukuyomi, Itachi could use it to control Sasuke and force Oro out, right? This is my response: "If Sasuke was still in Tsukuyomi, when Itachi took out both eyes, causing blindness and Itachi somehow released Oro and than controlled Sasuke to kill Itachi, Sasuke would know Itachi did something to him in that battle.



Controlling Sasuke with Tsukuyomi could be done. That's why Kabuto covered his eyes. 



You could argue your point, except Tsukuyomi failed before it started:






> So you agree that nothing indicates that Sasuke used time dilation against Bee? Itachi did say "My Tsukuyomi, you..." afterwards.



I'm saying you cannot argue Sasuke _didn't _use any time dilation because no-one can measure time between panels except the characters. Itachi said that because he had the time.

The moment the illusion broke, Sasuke couldn't really speak:


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## Bookworm (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Controlling Sasuke with Tsukuyomi could be done. That's why Kabuto covered his eyes.
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Itachi planned to use Tsukuyomi to control Kabuto_
> 
> ...



I'm not saying Itachi couldn't control Sasuke with Tsukuyomi, I'm saying it would defeat his purpose to do that, because Itachi didn't want Sasuke to think, that he lost on purpose. If Itachi controlled Sasuke to kill him, while Sasuke was still in Tsukuyomi, Sasuke would know that Itachi did that, since there's no other way Itachi could have died in that situation, other than Itachi controlling him or committing suicide.

It would just make Itachi look suspect. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm saying you cannot argue Sasuke _didn't _use any time dilation because no-one can measure time between panels except the characters. Itachi said that because he had the time.


I can argue that Sasuke didn't use time dilation vs Bee. Sasuke simply didn't have in reason to do it. Why would Sasuke put Bee in a illusion that causing Bee to feel restrained for 3 days, but in real time only a second would pass? It doesn't make any sense like that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 28, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> I'm not saying Itachi couldn't control Sasuke with Tsukuyomi, I'm saying it would defeat his purpose to do that, because Itachi didn't want Sasuke to think, that he lost on purpose. If Itachi controlled Sasuke to kill him, while Sasuke was still in Tsukuyomi, Sasuke would know that Itachi did that, since there's no other way Itachi could have died in that situation, other than Itachi controlling him or committing suicide.
> 
> It would just make Itachi look suspect.



He wanted Sasuke to be pressured and that involved using Tsukuyomi at full force.



> I can argue that Sasuke didn't use time dilation vs Bee. Sasuke simply didn't have in reason to do it. Why would Sasuke put Bee in a illusion that causing Bee to feel restrained for 3 days, but in real time only a second would pass? It doesn't make any sense like that.



You can, but unless you can measure time between panels, you can't claim either way. You'd need to dismiss the clear Tsukuyomi patterns.

It keeps him down and makes him easier to capture. Especially when he's been tearing through Taka left, right and centre.


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## Bookworm (Aug 28, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He wanted Sasuke to be pressured and that involved using Tsukuyomi at full force.


Why did you go back to this argument? I already countered it. The reason Itachi wanted to pressure Sasuke was to release Oro and using Tsukuyomi full force would do nothing to accomplish that. 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You can, but unless you can measure time between panels, you can't claim either way. You'd need to dismiss the clear Tsukuyomi patterns.
> 
> It keeps him down and makes him easier to capture. Especially when he's been tearing through Taka left, right and centre.


Sasuke making Bee feel restrained for 3 days in the Tsukuyomi world, but 1 second in real time wouldn't do anything to help keep Bee down and capture him, since it would only be 1 second real time Bee was restrained.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 28, 2018)

Bookworm said:


> Why did you go back to this argument? I already countered it. The reason Itachi wanted to pressure Sasuke was to release Oro and using Tsukuyomi full force would do nothing to accomplish that.



Because it is as simple as that. To pressure Sasuke, Itachi needed to go all out and hold back the only jutsu Sasuke could not handle, Susanoo. Anything different revolves around severely underestimating Sasuke.



> Sasuke making Bee feel restrained for 3 days in the Tsukuyomi world, but 1 second in real time wouldn't do anything to help keep Bee down and capture him, since it would only be 1 second real time Bee was restrained.



It does the mind fuckery it was meant to do, regardless of time. However, it just got countered. It doesn't harm Tsukuyomi's rep seeing as Bee had to break the illusion very quickly- something perfect Jinchuriki are only able to replicate it.


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