# Spoilers Kakashi vs 5 Kages



## joshhookway (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi is in Madara's situation.


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2014)

We don't know what his Susano'o does. However, the Gokage cannot handle Perfect Susano'o. They end up crushed.


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## Mercurial (Aug 6, 2014)

Kamui GG spam + Perfect Susanoo + someone who doesn't fool around but fights with skill and smartness? The poor Gokage get stomped, obviously.


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

Is it really hard to realise that Kakashi's PS is completely feat-less?


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## Sorin (Aug 6, 2014)

Man, my favorite character is by far Kakashi but i'm getting tired of these threads. 

He is powerful but we should get a better understanding of his limits before we make more threads.


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## joshhookway (Aug 6, 2014)

I don't know what you guys are saying, But the Five kages gave Madara a good fighter.


Madara was:
1. Edo infinite chakra
2. Hashirama DNA
3. Rinnegan


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2014)

Let's be honest here. We all know that PS beats the Gokage. It's like saying Harogromo cannot beat Konohamaru because we didn't know his jutsus.

Anything PS should have, should be enough to beat the Gokage.

We would need to wait if Kakashi is fighting an opponent of equal grounds or stronger, like EMS Madara or 8th Gated Gai. But not against opponents that were already demoralised by a single demostration of PS.


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## crisler (Aug 6, 2014)

Well having PS is like an automatic win against gokage...at least, for kakashis' level of shinobi it is.

However there is a factor, and that's how much kakashi can control the PS.

Madara has absolutely full control of his PS. He can maintain it for long, and use it just as he intends to. We aren't sure if kakashi can do that. I wouldn't suspect sasuke, but as for kakashi he is not an uchiha, so his body is probably going to be more stressed than sasuke or madara.


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Let's be honest here. We all know that PS beats the Gokage. It's like saying Harogromo cannot beat Konohamaru because we didn't know his jutsus.
> 
> Anything PS should have, should be enough to beat the Gokage.
> 
> We would need to wait if Kakashi is fighting an opponent of equal grounds or stronger, like EMS Madara or 8th Gated Gai. But not against opponents that were already demoralised by a single demostration of PS.



We don't know how powerful Kakashi's PS is, we don't know how long he can keep it up.
We don't know if it will have side effects on him, we don't know if he can use it with Kamui.
We know nothing about his abilities. 

Madara's PS was so strong that its shockwaves can destroy even mountains from far away. Even Sasuke's PS did not show those shockwaves. 

Also, Kakashi's PS is from a MS, which is weaker than both the Rinnegan and EMS. So for all we know his PS can be massively weaker, he might be on the same level, or even stronger. We don't know. 

You did not see everyone saying that EMS Sasuke when he showed his PS stronger than Hashirama, JJ Obito, or even EMS Madara... 

so, why it's different here? Even though Sasuke's potential is superior to Kakashi's.


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## Azula (Aug 6, 2014)

kakashi's susanoo can fly so gokages best shot a super jinton has few chances of being successful


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

^
Onoki can make them fly as well. @>@


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 6, 2014)

He needn't PS, if he has the chakra to stabilize PS Kamui spam + Susanoo is already too much for the Gokage to handle.


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## ThunderClap (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi stomps.


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## Sorin (Aug 6, 2014)

Sasuke's Susano air slashes destroyed a meteor that was the size of a few mountain ranges.


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

Sorin said:


> Sasuke's Susano *air slashes *destroyed a meteor that was the size of a few mountain ranges.



scan for the bold, @>@
because I remember they were direct hits...


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## Sorin (Aug 6, 2014)

So you think Sasuke's sword is that big, that it reaches the other side of the meteor?

The meteors were like a hundred times the size of Sasuke's PS. Therefore it's safe to assume that he did it with air slashes. 

I mean, why is that even hard to believe? Sasuke at this point is 2 tiers above EMS Madara. Logically he should be able to use the same PS as Madara, even stronger.

Is powerscalling a lost concept around here or what?


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> We don't know how powerful Kakashi's PS is, we don't know how long he can keep it up.



Like i said above, we all know he can last the necessary in PS. This "we don't know" sounds to me as a double standard, because a lot of people were arguing for Minato in his SM, i guess you did too. Especially at this rate in the manga and with the hype Obito gave him. I know you know he can last what he needs to beat the Gokages.



> We don't know if it will have side effects on him, we don't know if he can use it with Kamui.
> We know nothing about his abilities.



He doesn't need to use Kamui. He just needs to crush them and that's it.



> Madara's PS was so strong that its shockwaves can destroy even mountains from far away. Even Sasuke's PS did not show those shockwaves.



He doesn't need to match Madara's PS's strenght either. Single slashes from his huge Susano'o is enough to kill them. On top of that, i am pretty sure he can replicate what Madara did.



> Also, Kakashi's PS is from a MS, which is weaker than both the Rinnegan and EMS. So for all we know his PS can be massively weaker, he might be on the same level, or even stronger. We don't know.



How do you know it's weaker? EMS doesn't boost Amaterasu, why would it boost PS?



> You did not see everyone saying that EMS Sasuke when he showed his PS stronger than Hashirama, JJ Obito, or even EMS Madara...



Because he wasn't that strong. However, with PS i bet a lot of people already put him above the Gokage. It's a different comparison considering that Madara shits on them.



> so, why it's different here? Even though Sasuke's potential is superior to Kakashi's.



Because he has Perfect Susano'o and we are not comparing him to Madara, Hashirama or JJ Obito. At least, nto me. Because i don't think a EMS Madara or a bit stronger level opponent would beat the man that fucked JJ Madara. But the Gokage are nowhere near the level of those you listed above so it's a safe comparison.


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

Sorin said:


> So you think Sasuke's sword is that big, that it reaches the other side of the meteor?
> 
> The meteors were like a hundred times the size of Sasuke's PS. Therefore it's safe to assume that he did it with air slashes.
> 
> ...



- I don't see the problem with that, just like how he cut the huge Tree's root with his V3 Susanoo.

- Honestly Sasuke did not show anything impressive or THAT impressive so to speak. People want
to give that to him because they want to believe that he, and Naruto are equal. 

- man, you were talking about the shockwaves, and I asked for panel, and you did not bring it.
It's that easy. 

@LostSelf

Well, I guess I'll wait to see his feats. I honestly doubt that Kishi would make him as powerful as Sasuke or Madara's PS.


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2014)

But you already said you agreed that he surpassed base Minato. Therefore you also agree that he can keep PS a good time in order to beat him.

If he can do that, i am sure he should be able to kill the Gokage as well, as nothing they have save Jinton can bypass PS.


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## Sorin (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - I don't see the problem with that, just like how he cut the huge Tree's root with his V3 Susanoo.
> 
> - Honestly Sasuke did not show anything impressive or THAT impressive so to speak. People want
> to give that to him because they want to believe that he, and Naruto are equal.
> ...



I'll request something simple from you then:

Please show me the scan where Sasuke cuts the meteors with the sword alone? 

I'll wait.

Btw you can be weaker than Naruto but stronger than EMS Madara. Naruto is so much above EMS Madara it's not even funny. You can put 5 tiers in there lol.


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> But you already said you agreed that he surpassed base Minato. Therefore you also agree that he can keep PS a good time in order to beat him.
> 
> If he can do that, i am sure he should be able to kill the Gokage as well, as nothing they have save Jinton can bypass PS.



I don't believe base Minato can defeat the 5 Kages.  
so even if Kakashi surpassed base Minato, that is not enough. 

- Well, the jinton is good enough... @>@


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## Ghost (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Even though Sasuke's potential is superior to Kakashi's.



These are Obito's eyes, not Kakashi's.


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

Sorin said:


> I'll request something simple from you then:
> 
> Please show me the scan where Sasuke cuts the meteors with the sword alone?
> 
> ...



there
distorted space

- I know. @>@
what made Sasuke impressive was his teleportation jutsu, but then it got so much drawback to it
which made it sucks imo, and thus taking him down a lot...



> These are Obito's eyes, not Kakashi's.



I know. 
but kakashi is the who's using them now...


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## Sorin (Aug 6, 2014)

Thanks.

Goddamn, this feat is even more impressive then.

Sasuke made a dozen cuts in the meteor, which is god knows how many dozens of kilometers big, before Naruto's bijudama even detonated. His speed in PS must be insane. 

Link removed

Thanks Hussain now i'm impressed by Sasuke's PS and its power. 

Can't wait for Kakashi's feats.


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't believe base Minato can defeat the 5 Kages.
> so even if Kakashi surpassed base Minato, that is not enough.
> 
> - Well, the jinton is good enough... @>@



I am not using ABC logic here. But if he can maneuver PS well enough and long enough to kill a teleporting user, i bet he would have way less troubles hitting the Gokage, wich are all of them notably slower.


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## richard lewis (Aug 6, 2014)

saikyou said:


> These are Obito's eyes, not Kakashi's.



Not sure what ur point is here because sasuke is using itachi's eyes.....


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## Ghost (Aug 6, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Not sure what ur point is here because sasuke is using itachi's eyes.....



Kakashi's personal potential shouldn't affect the powers of Obito's eyes.


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## Azula (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> Onoki can make them fly as well. @>@



forgot about that 

I guess if they can avoid susanoo slash like Kaguya they have a chance


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## ueharakk (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Is it really hard to realise that Kakashi's PS is completely feat-less?



That doesn't mean anything.  

Featless just tells us that we don't know for sure what Kakashi's PS can do, which means sure it could be weaker than Madara's, however it could be just as powerful or even STRONGER than madara's as well.

Unless shown otherwise, all we have are the feats of Madara's PS and Sasuke's PS to base the power of Kakashi's PS on, and therefore Kakashi slaughters these fodders just like Madara would have done.


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## Thunder (Aug 6, 2014)

_Perfect Susanō_ proved too much for the Gokage. Now Kakashi has one. And I assume Kakashi's version isn't far off from Madara's considering the circumstances. Meaning Kakashi should possess enough power to assist Naruto and Sasuke in their fight against Kaguya—a much stronger foe than Madara.

The biggest threat to Kakashi is _Jinton: Genkai Hakuri_ which Madara consistently blocked with _Fūjutsu Kyūin_. Kakashi does have the superior defense in _Kamui_, however, as all attacks become useless while he's intangible.

So the situations aren't dissimilar in my opinion.


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## Malicious Friday (Aug 6, 2014)

A jutsu that can destroy mountains vs 5 ants? 

Kaka in PS + kamui = Hell. 

Kaka wins this.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 6, 2014)

Irrespective of whether or not it has feats, I think it's pretty obvious Kakashi's _Susano'o_ is going to be at least as powerful as the one Madara used against the Gokage. The whole point of it's existence is so that he can make a contribution in the fight against Kaguya, and as bad a writer as Kishimoto is, I doubt even he's nonsensical enough to give him a weak power up he can't sustain in the fight against the final villain. Not when he just dedicated a whole chapter to this.

If not, then Kakashi still has double Kamui, which was faster than one eyed Juudara. That's better than anything the collective Kage are capable of mustering.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi sends them to a different dimension.


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## Butterfly (Aug 6, 2014)

Am I the only one that thinks that the five gokage, one with intense speed to dodge visual jutsus, another one who can block them entirely and has a wide range of ninjutsus, god damn onoki, a borderline immortal opponent with intense strength, and someone who possesses the "ultimate defense" would stand a chance and not get stomped? 

the sharingan wank is just way too OTT tbh.

edit: to clarify, I think Kakashi's victory is definitely feasible and more than likely than the reverse, but he _stomps_ 5 kage level opponents where one can cover another's weakness? lmao


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## Bonly (Aug 6, 2014)

With PS around the Kages chances of winning are pretty much down, they would get overwhelmed


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 6, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that the five gokage, one with intense speed to dodge visual jutsus, another one who can block them entirely and has a wide range of ninjutsus, god damn onoki, a borderline immortal opponent with intense strength, and someone who possesses the "ultimate defense" would stand a chance and not get stomped?
> 
> the sharingan wank is just way too OTT tbh.
> 
> edit: to clarify, I think Kakashi's victory is definitely feasible and more than likely than the reverse, but he _stomps_ 5 kage level opponents where one can cover another's weakness? lmao



I agree - it isn't as though they don't have options. Onoki's ability to weigh Perfect Susano'o down with only a graze of his finger, to the point that it's moving like a snail, would be incredibly effective in countering the technique. Then factor in repeated Tsunade-pumped jinton blasts, with the other Kage providing distractions, and they do have a shot at winning.

Though against Kakashi their biggest concern is Kamui, rather than Perfect Susano'o imo.​​


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## Lurko (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi rapes, the dude is about to help Naruto and Sasuke face Kaguya.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 6, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that the five gokage, one with intense speed to dodge visual jutsus, another one who can block them entirely and has a wide range of ninjutsus, god damn onoki, a borderline immortal opponent with intense strength, and someone who possesses the "ultimate defense" would stand a chance and not get stomped?
> 
> the sharingan wank is just way too OTT tbh.
> 
> edit: to clarify, I think Kakashi's victory is definitely feasible and more than likely than the reverse, but he _stomps_ 5 kage level opponents where one can cover another's weakness? lmao



Speed doesn't mean anything here because Kamui has outpaced far faster opponents. 

Mei can't block Kamui.

Ōnoki also cannot block it.

Gaara's ultimate defense is not fast enough to counter it.

Regeneration doesn't help if Kakashi warps her head away or her whole body.

I'll admit that I like Kakashi, but I don't think I'm being biased or 'wanking' when I say these things at all. If Kakashi is able to contribute in a fight against Kaguya, he should definitely be above the Gokage at this point.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 6, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that the five gokage, one with intense speed to dodge visual jutsus, another one who can block them entirely and has a wide range of ninjutsus, god damn onoki, a borderline immortal opponent with intense strength, and someone who possesses the "ultimate defense" would stand a chance and not get stomped?
> 
> the sharingan wank is just way too OTT tbh.
> 
> edit: to clarify, I think Kakashi's victory is definitely feasible and more than likely than the reverse, but he _stomps_ 5 kage level opponents where one can cover another's weakness? lmao



This is a post made by someone who is not aboard the kamui train.

But if Kishi wrote out the fight and, in his best interests, wanted to make it interesting, then yeah, the Gokage would develop some kind of counters, and he'd probably just get lazy and stretch their current abilities to match.

But an issue with that is how Kishi made a big point about Madara breaking out Perfect Susano, and the Gokage admitting that there was nothing they could do against it.  He got around the issue of PS killing them all instantly by having Edo Tensei end, and PS dissolve, followed by Madara deciding not to use PS again for reasons of pride, and not because he couldn't obliterate them if he manifested it again.  So it looks like the Gokage are helpless against PS alone, and if you combine that with personal and ranged kamuis, it looks like they're just screwed, since that can't be nullified like Preta Path could.  Not with their canon arsenals, with their most reasonable extended arsenals.  Except slug sage mode, which can be channeled remotely through Katsuya to grant the other kage slug sage mode.


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## Butterfly (Aug 6, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Speed doesn't mean anything here because Kamui has outpaced far faster opponents.
> 
> Mei can't block Kamui.
> 
> ...



My apologies. I do agree with these things but, at the same time, I'm more referring to the difficulty of the win, you know? I think _stomping_ the five is where i'd label things a stretch, not necessarily his victory (which is why I edited the post).


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2014)

Well, i don't see what options they would have. The Kages clearly said Madara was an opponent they couldn't beat after they witnessed Perfect Susano'o.

Therefore i don't see what they really could do as anything they try will be overpowered and one slash of it can kill more than one of them easly.


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## richard lewis (Aug 6, 2014)

The gokage would almost certainly pull out some kind of ultra S-rank jutsu in a situation like this. Wouldn't count them out just yet!


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## Thunder (Aug 6, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that the five  gokage, one with intense speed to dodge visual jutsus, another one who  can block them entirely and has a wide range of ninjutsus, god damn  onoki, a borderline immortal opponent with intense strength, and someone  who possesses the "ultimate defense" would stand a chance and not get  stomped?



What you listed _sounds_ good enough. None poses a legitimate threat to _Perfect Susanō_ in practice, however. That's canon. Then you must factor in _Kamui_ which is much faster when both eyes are together. 

In  this fight the Gokage are staring down a colossal, ethereal warrior  protecting a man capable of instantaneous dimensional warping. Their  teamwork and resolve?while admirable?is laughed at by "hax" of this  caliber.

Kakashi is currently useful in a fight against Kaguya.  The Gokage are currently hanging from trees not being useful. It's  pretty clear Kakashi has surpassed them individually or as a collective  unit with these power-ups, I think.

If you view what _Perfect Susanō_ did to the Gokage as a "stomp" they'll get stomped here as well.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 6, 2014)

Thunder said:


> What you listed _sounds_ good enough. None poses a legitimate threat to _Perfect Susanō_ in practice, however. That's canon. Then you must factor in _Kamui_ which is much faster when both eyes are together.
> 
> In  this fight the Gokage are staring down a colossal, ethereal warrior  protecting a man capable of instantaneous dimensional warping. Their  teamwork and resolve?while admirable?is laughed at by "hax" of this  caliber.
> 
> ...



In his defence Thunder, the Gokage that Perfect Susano'o-clad Madara fought were in terrible physical conditions. They were all pretty beaten up and had exhausted most of their chakra. In perfect health they would be more well suited to combating it. 

I agree Kakashi wins though.​​


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## Jad (Aug 6, 2014)

There really isn't any discussion or debate to be had. Kakashi beats them with very little difficulty. Gokage have been relegated to background fodders in this manga after their one sided defeat.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 6, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> My apologies. I do agree with these things but, at the same time, I'm more referring to the difficulty of the win, you know? I think _stomping_ the five is where i'd label things a stretch, not necessarily his victory (which is why I edited the post).



I don't think he'd stomp them, per se, but more because it's out of character for him to pull out his big guns as opposed to it being beyond his current abilities. If his _Perfect Susano'o_ is remotely as powerful as Madara's, which crushed the Gokage both physically and spiritually, then he could very easily kill them all. It's just a matter of whether or not Kakashi would be the type to pull it out and attack them all instantly, I think.


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## Thunder (Aug 6, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> In his defence Thunder, the Gokage that Perfect Susano'o-clad Madara fought were in terrible physical conditions. They were all pretty beaten up and had exhausted most of their chakra. In perfect health they would be more well suited to combating it.
> 
> I agree Kakashi wins though.​



What you say is true (the Gokage were indeed exhausted) but I don't think they'd fare much better against _Perfect Susanō_ while fresh. After all it took everything the Gokage had to defeat lesser powers before Madara materialized his trump card. 

But that's Madara. Kakashi wouldn't be caught by the Gokage's strongest combination because of _Kamui_.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi wouldn't be caught by the Gokage's strongest combination because he's a lot more careful than Madara.


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## iJutsu (Aug 6, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I don't think he'd stomp them, per se, but more because it's out of character for him to pull out his big guns as opposed to it being beyond his current abilities. If his _Perfect Susano'o_ is remotely as powerful as Madara's, which crushed the Gokage both physically and spiritually, then he could very easily kill them all. It's just a matter of whether or not Kakashi would be the type to pull it out and attack them all instantly, I think.



It's 5 against 1. He'd have to be a dumbass not to go PS right away. Even Madara summoned 15 susanoo and he was just playing around.


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2014)

Am i the only one that thinks Madara didn't use PS again to defeat the Gokage? I just see their wounds to small to have been made by a huge monster like that.


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## Thunder (Aug 6, 2014)

Assuming _Kamui_ and _Perfect Susanō_ are out of the picture I'm pretty sure the Gokage could capture Kakashi with that attack regardless of how careful he is.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 6, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Am i the only one that thinks Madara didn't use PS again to defeat the Gokage? I just see their wounds to small to have been made by a huge monster like that.



Madara explicitly said after he no-sold Itachi's cancellation of _edo tensei_ that he would not use _perfect Susano'o_ to finish off the Gokage.


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## Jagger (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi should eventually win since I'm quite sure Kishimoto isn't going to give Kakashi a huge power-up such as Perfect Susano'O without making him live up to the "hype".


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## StickaStick (Aug 6, 2014)

Depends on how long Kakashi can maintain his P-Susanoo. Kamui + P-Susanoo is incredibly haxx but should be a terrible drain on Kakashi's chakra. Which is funny because, I suspect in upcoming chapter(s) he's going to be able to maintain it for a decent amount of time. Probably longer than someone with his chakra reserves not just in general but a_t this point_ warrant.

Taking into consideration Kakashi's intelligence and understanding of his own chakra reserves, I would expect him to go to work in an effort to finish off the Gokage quickly before he nears his breaking point. If he does that the Gokage have low to nil chance of winning.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2014)

Alright let's be very fair here and assume the bare minimum for Kakashi's new found power.

- We know that having two eyes doubles the warping speed of Kamui
- We know at the very least the ability to generate a P-Susano'o means Kakashi gained a large boost in chakra
- We know that only Jinton has even a remote chance to break through P-Susano'o

Given this the Gokages have 2 routes to victory; out-lasting Kakashi or Jinton. 

Even assuming Jinton can bust through Susano'o, Kakashi w/ double speed Kamui will be able to warp away in-time to evade being vaporized. So I don't see that working, unless Kakashi is already significantly tired out. That brings us to out-lasting Kakashi. 

If the battle happens at the time of Madara, the Gokage will have knowledge of Kamui, but not that it can now be used as double speed. I seriously doubt that the Gokage will be cautious enough of regular Kamui to constantly LOS-Block. So one Gokage is most likely going down to Kamui-warp. The Gokage also don't know that Kakashi can use Kamui to warp himself; that means another Gokage is likely to go down to Kamui teleport-ambush. 

The most important Gokage for out lasting here is Tsunade, unfortunately Tsunade will likely be Kakashi's main target out of the gate, because as Tsunade herself suggest it's basic fundamentals to target the medic and Kakashi knows very well how good Tsunade is in that role. So chances are she will be going down to Kamui-Warp or Kamui-Teleport-Ambush. But let's assume the worst and for some reason Kakashi targets Ei and Mei, taking them out first. 

Even in that case the Gokage really need to prey to god that Kakashi's stamina doesn't hold out long as even with superior numbers Kakashi's P-Susano'o and Kamui-Warping (to evade Chou-Jinton) is a defense they can't overcome and they won't last long against P-Susano'o. Granted with Tsunade there they may be able to Katsuya tank a fair number of blows and Jinton repel P-Susano'o at least once. So maybe they can last long enough.

But at that point were talking a high diff win for the Gokage, in the best course of events, assuming the bare minimum of Kakashi's capabilities. 

Kakashi's P-Susano'o may very well have S/T Weapons. Kakashi may be able to use Kamui phasing now & Kamui-Grab-Warp. He might be able to Kamui through Kage-Bushin. His Susano'o could be as strong as Madara's or stronger where it completely overwhelms the Gokage with physical might alone.

Given this I feel Kakashi winning is much more likely than not, and the only other likely scenario I can imagine is a draw if say Kakashi's utilizing these abilities to takes his life.


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Am i the only one that thinks Madara didn't use PS again to defeat the Gokage? I just see their wounds to small to have been made by a huge monster like that.



He specifically said that he would need to use it though...


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## trance (Aug 6, 2014)

Now that Kakashi has Perfect Susanoo, he stomps the Gokage into oblivion.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 6, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Am i the only one that thinks Madara didn't use PS again to defeat the Gokage? I just see their wounds to small to have been made by a huge monster like that.



I always figured he refused to use it again, and then killed them in base.

I mean PS would obliterate them, not cause stab wounds in the neck.  Tsunade also had that mokuton grown between her... sections, which isn't congruent with being smeared into Valley of the End II Turbo Edition.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> He specifically said that he would need to use it though...



Gaara's the only one with intact clothes.  

Mei looks kind of hot with her hair down, with the sleeveless shirt and torn skirt look.  That punkish look.  All weak in the knees.  You think she wanted to marry Madara?


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Gaara's the only one with intact clothes.
> 
> Mei looks kind of hot with her hair down, with the sleeveless shirt and torn skirt look.  That punkish look.  All weak in the knees.  You think she wanted to marry Madara?





*Spoiler*: __ 




I don't really know what to response to your post, and I wanted to use this gif for so long.


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## Bloo (Aug 6, 2014)

Assuming Kakashi doesn't die early on from chakra exhaustion, he stomps.


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## emanresu (Aug 6, 2014)

intangibility = not beatable anymore. Kakasahi rapes all of them by kamui all heads in 5 secs


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## Lurko (Aug 7, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Assuming Kakashi doesn't die early on from chakra exhaustion, he stomps.



Assuming Chakra will be a problem.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 7, 2014)

emanresu said:


> intangibility = not beatable anymore. Kakasahi rapes all of them by kamui all heads in 5 secs



So MS Obito >> Kaguya right?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 7, 2014)

Thunder said:


> What you say is true (the Gokage were indeed exhausted) but I don't think they'd fare much better against _Perfect Susanō_ while fresh. After all it took everything the Gokage had to defeat lesser powers before Madara materialized his trump card.



I disagree. Onoki's ability to weigh Perfect Susano'o down with only a graze of his finger, to the point that it's moving like a snail, would be incredibly effective in countering the technique. Then factor in repeated Tsunade-pumped jinton blasts, with the other Kage providing distractions, and they do have a shot at bypassing it.

The Gokage being exhausted hampered them significantly. Onoki _couldn't use jinton_, Tsunade's Byakugou was on the brink of running out, Mei's reaction time had fallen to the point that she could no longer counter katons, Gaara didn't seem capable of manoeuvring his sand much at all, and Ei kept his RNY de-activated even in _desperate_ _situations_. At full health they certainly have a better chance.



> But that's Madara. Kakashi wouldn't be caught by the Gokage's strongest combination because of _Kamui_.



Agreed.​​


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## LostSelf (Aug 7, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Madara explicitly said after he no-sold Itachi's cancellation of _edo tensei_ that he would not use _perfect Susano'o_ to finish off the Gokage.



Then the translation i read was correct.



Hussain said:


> He specifically said that he would need to use it though...



He didn't say that. He said it would be a disgrace pulling it out again, and it just doesn't make sense that PS left them with those kind of injuries.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I always figured he refused to use it again, and then killed them in base.
> 
> I mean PS would obliterate them, not cause stab wounds in the neck.  Tsunade also had that mokuton grown between her... sections, which isn't congruent with being smeared into Valley of the End II Turbo Edition.



Indeed. Tsunade was the most damaged, and even her had little injuries to have been caused by PS considering the blade would've disappeared anybody it slashed.


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## Bkprince33 (Aug 7, 2014)

IMO kakashi power wise is obviously above the gokage, his only weakness is probably still his stamina,if the gokage have knowledge on that they should be able to outlast, if not they get stomped into oblivion


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 7, 2014)

Kakashi oneshots with PS.


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## Thunder (Aug 7, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I disagree. Onoki's ability to weigh Perfect Susano'o down with only a graze of his finger, to the point that it's moving like a snail, would be incredibly effective in countering the technique. Then factor in repeated Tsunade-pumped jinton blasts, with the other Kage providing distractions, and they do have a shot at bypassing it.



Madara's _Perfect Susanō_ slashed apart mountains without even trying. The shock wave alone threw the Gokage back. So I'd definitely place a bet on Madara slashing them directly before Ōnoki waltzes up to _Perfect Susanō_ and causally touches it like you're describing here. There's a massive speed disparity that isn't being accounted for.



> The Gokage being exhausted hampered them significantly. Onoki _couldn't use jinton_, Tsunade's Byakugou was on the brink of running out, Mei's reaction time had fallen to the point that she could no longer counter katons, Gaara didn't seem capable of manoeuvring his sand much at all, and Ei kept his RNY de-activated even in _desperate_ _situations_. At full health they certainly have a better chance.


I'm not denying their exhaustion. I'm denying their exhaustion was the main attributing factor behind the Gokage's loss which you seem to be implying.

Viewing the situation from a narrative perspective it doesn't make sense that the Gokage (while healthy) could defeat a full power Madara when the Gokage (while healthy) couldn't defeat Madara when he wasn't a full strength. 

And it's important to note the Gokage never actually faced _Perfect Susanō_ in combat. 

Don't get me wrong: the Gokage succeeded in pressuring Madara into materializing _Perfect Susanō_, an impressive feat. Overall, however, I believe the author portrayed Madara as being above their level.


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## Rocky (Aug 7, 2014)

The viz is suggesting that Madara did indeed use Perfect Susano'o to finish off the five Kage. "I'm almost embarrassed to have to do this again. " 

He literally says  that he has to do it again.


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## emanresu (Aug 8, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> So MS Obito >> Kaguya right?



so ur saying kage-level nin on same tier with kaguya?


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## joshhookway (Aug 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The viz is suggesting that Madara did indeed use Perfect Susano'o to finish off the five Kage. "I'm almost embarrassed to have to do this again. "
> 
> He literally says  that he has to do it again.



Yet the evidence suggests not. What do you take? A translation of the author's language, or the author's direct message?


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## Rocky (Aug 8, 2014)

I don't see any evidence that he withheld from using it again. The only possible argument for invalidating Madara's statement is the severity (or lack there of) of the Kage's injuries. However, that isn't evidence of anything because we didn't actually see how they were inured; it was off panel...


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## Hasan (Aug 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't see any evidence that he withheld from using it again. The only possible argument for invalidating Madara's statement is the severity (or lack there of) of the Kage's injuries. However, that isn't evidence of anything because we didn't actually see how they were inured; it was off panel...



"I am almost embarassed to have to do this again... I already used it once, but... // ... // _My interest has waned due to interference // Perhaps I ought to head out to go retreive the Kyuubi instead_."​
More like he didn't have intention to fight any longer, and was about leave, but then Ōnoki happened.

The Susanō was destroying mountain ranges. Their (human) bodies would have been destroyed beyond recognition, had he used it.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 8, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> So MS Obito > Kaguya right?



Intangibility would certainly keep him around a bit. And with Kakashi's offensive Kamui, killing Kaguya is perfectly plausible. The author's discretion is the only thing stopping it, really.​


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## Rocky (Aug 8, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Intangibility would certainly keep him around a bit. And with Kakashi's offensive Kamui, killing Kaguya is perfectly plausible. The author's discretion is the only thing stopping it, really.​



Kaguya can negate Ninjutsu and hop demensions. Kamui is completely useless against her.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 8, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Madara's _Perfect Susanō_ slashed apart mountains without even trying. The shock wave alone threw the Gokage back. So I'd definitely place a bet on Madara slashing them directly before Ōnoki waltzes up to _Perfect Susanō_ and causally touches it like you're describing here. There's a massive speed disparity that isn't being accounted for.



Eh. Onoki is a tiny target, and between his ability to create doton bunshin and Tsunade's ability to bring out Katsuyu divisions to protect them, I don't see Perfect Susano'o hitting them directly before they do anything. Furthermore, I think it's more than plausible that Onoki in perfect health could attach himself or one of his clones long enough to make Susano'o move slowly. I don't remember much of a speed disparity either, the Kage were capable of reacting to Susano'o after all [1] 



> I'm not denying their exhaustion. I'm denying their exhaustion was the main attributing factor behind the Gokage's loss which you seem to be implying.



I know that, I just disagree.



> Viewing the situation from a narrative perspective it doesn't make sense that the Gokage (while healthy) could defeat a full power Madara when the Gokage (while healthy) couldn't defeat Madara when he wasn't a full strength.



I'm not sure that's a fair way to look at it though. The Gokage, even though healthy, weren't using their _full power_ in the earlier stages of the match either (on that note, the Gokage eventually did manage to almost defeat Madara before he went full-power). Other factors need to be considered too. Perfect Susano'o is originally Madara's greatest technique, but Hashirama's Mokuton was just as much of a threat, having canonly competed with Madara's Susano'o variations in the past. Yet, the Gokage did manage to counter that too. This was a stronger version of the original Madara that the Gokage were fighting, and they still managed to trump him before he brought out PS.



> And it's important to note the Gokage never actually faced _Perfect Susanō_ in combat.



According to the Viz translation, they did fight against it, as it was implied that Madara was irritated at the notion of having to bring it out _again_. That would make sense given Tsunade's anxious expression in that same panel.



> Don't get me wrong: the Gokage succeeded in pressuring Madara into materializing _Perfect Susanō_, an impressive feat. Overall, however, I believe the author portrayed Madara as being above their level.



I agree, but that was mostly because of edo tensei regeneration, the rinnegan and mokuton enhancements. Yet, they managed to still compete with all of those things throughout the fight. Perfect Susano'o alone didn't necessarily warrant Madara as being stronger than them, it was their current physical conditions that made their situation seem so hopeless. Basically, despite bringing out their full power and using everything they had to counter Madara's arsenal, he still had one final trump card that they hadn't anticipated. You have to consider though that under normal circumstances they could have put forward their full power into countering Perfect Susano'o (when Madara doesn't have edo tensei, mokuton etc.), as opposed to wasting their full power on other equally or almost as potent techniques.​​


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## Pocalypse (Aug 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kaguya can negate Ninjutsu and hop demensions. Kamui is completely useless against her.



She couldn't negate a bunch of Rasenshurikens about to hit her, and all she did was stand there, didn't even bother to move. Double Kamui should be able to snipe her.


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## Thunder (Aug 8, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Eh. Onoki is a tiny target, and between his ability to create doton bunshin and Tsunade's ability to bring out Katsuyu divisions to protect them, I don't see Perfect Susano'o hitting them directly before they do anything. Furthermore, I think it's more than plausible that Onoki in perfect health could attach himself or one of his clones long enough to make Susano'o move slowly. I don't remember much of a speed disparity either, the Kage were capable of reacting to Susano'o after all [1]​



Ōnoki's size isn't an issue if mere shock waves caught him. And we're discussing the speed of Perfect _Susanō_ here, not the speed of a skeletal _Susanō_ effected by _Edo Tensei_. Tsunade formed a one handed seal but was Madara even attempting to strike in the scan you linked me? It seems like he was more focused on figuring out why his fight was interrupted. 

The fact that a fully materialized _Susanō_ would have quicker attack and movement speed shouldn't come as a surprise. Dense, fine chakra is capable of more. Especially in the case of chakra cloaks.

Also, it's entirely possible Perfect_ Susanō_ can be made to go intangible. We've seen _Susanō_ used in conjunction with other Mangekyō Sharingan powers before.

> I'm not sure that's a fair way to look at it though. The Gokage, even though healthy, weren't using their _full power_ in the earlier stages of the match either (on that note, the Gokage eventually did manage to almost defeat Madara before he went full-power). Other factors need to be considered too. Perfect Susano'o is originally Madara's greatest technique, but Hashirama's Mokuton was just as much of a threat, having canonly competed with Madara's Susano'o variations in the past. Yet, the Gokage did manage to counter that too. This was a stronger version of the original Madara that the Gokage were fighting, and they still managed to trump him before he brought out PS.


That works both ways: Madara wasn't going all out either and he still held the advantage. So I don't see why that advantage wouldn't be maintained by Madara if both parties throw all of their cards on the table. 

Madara is simply too powerful for the Gokage to defeat regardless if they start with full chakra or not, in my opinion. This applies to any fight where a power disparity exists between the combatants.

When you view the Gokage's reaction to Perfect _Susanō_ it wasn't "if only we had full chakra!" They were in compete and utter shock something of that level was ever achievable by a human being. Why would that reaction change if they started healthy? When something that colossal suddenly manifests itself in front of you, odds are you're going to pause for a few seconds in order to regain your faculties. There's a psychological component at work here too.

And if we are going to compare _Mokuton_ to _Susanō_ with the intention of doing so fairly, we mustn't ignore _Mokuton_ has different variants just like _Susanō_. Equating _Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin_ (a jutsu which focuses on putting opponents to sleep with pollen, not beating them down with brute force) to Perfect _Susanō_ is erroneous, I feel.

> According to the Viz translation, they did fight against it, as it was implied that Madara was irritated at the notion of having to bring it out _again_. That would make sense given Tsunade's anxious expression in that same panel.


I'm not sure which translation is the correct one. I don't trust most of them to be honest. In any case the end result doesn't change: the Gokage lost.

> I agree, but that was mostly because of edo tensei regeneration, the rinnegan and mokuton enhancements. Yet, they managed to still compete with all of those things throughout the fight. Perfect Susano'o alone didn't necessarily warrant Madara as being stronger than them, it was their current physical conditions that made their situation seem so hopeless. Basically, despite bringing out their full power and using everything they had to counter Madara's arsenal, he still had one final trump card that they hadn't anticipated. You have to consider though that under normal circumstances they could have put forward their full power into countering Perfect Susano'o (when Madara doesn't have edo tensei, mokuton etc.), as opposed to wasting their full power on other equally or almost as potent techniques.


I'm of the opinion Perfect _Susanō_ + double _Kamui_ is better than or equal to those buffs.

Looking at it a little more closely: the Gokage didn't face the full might of the Rinnegan. Madara only cast _Fūjutsu Kyūin _which negates ninjutsu. _Kamui_ negates ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu making it the superior defense in this situation.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 9, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Ōnoki's size isn't an issue if mere shock waves caught him. And we're discussing the speed of Perfect _Susanō_ here, not the speed of a skeletal _Susanō_ effected by _Edo Tensei_. Tsunade formed a one handed seal but was Madara even attempting to strike in the scan you linked me? It seems like he was more focused on figuring out why his fight was interrupted.
> 
> The fact that a fully materialized _Susanō_ would have quicker attack and movement speed shouldn't come as a surprise. Dense, fine chakra is capable of more. Especially in the case of chakra cloaks.



No, Madara's Susano'o was still fully materialised at that point (it didn't start to de-materialise until that " ! " appears above Gaara's head in the following panel; and yes, it was _mid-strike_. 




> Also, it's entirely possible Perfect_ Susanō_ can be made to go intangible. We've seen _Susanō_ used in conjunction with other Mangekyō Sharingan powers before.



If Susano'o goes intangible then it merely becomes a ethereal aura of chakra, which the Gokage's attack will phase through. That works as more of a disadvantage to Madara than an advantage.



> That works both ways: Madara wasn't going all out either and he still held the advantage. So I don't see why that advantage wouldn't be maintained by Madara if both parties throw all of their cards on the table.



The only thing I'm actually arguing is that perfect health Gokage could have dealt with Perfect Susano'o. I've said nothing of them dealing with Susano'o and all of Madara's other techniques simultaneously. I simply meant that Gokage at full power > Edo Madara when he's toying around with them. 



> Madara is simply too powerful for the Gokage to defeat regardless if they start with full chakra or not, in my opinion. This applies to any fight where a power disparity exists between the combatants.



Yeah, but I'm arguing a specific scenario where he's only using Perfect Susano'o, in which I think they have methods of destroying his defense. 



> When you view the Gokage's reaction to Perfect _Susanō_ it wasn't "if only we had full chakra!" They were in compete and utter shock something of that level was ever achievable by a human being. Why would that reaction change if they started healthy? When something that colossal suddenly manifests itself in front of you, odds are you're going to pause for a few seconds in order to regain your faculties. There's a psychological component at work here too.



I agree with you there, but that also doesn't mean that they would lose just because of a temporary inducement of shock. Tsunade noted that there was such a difference between him and them, but I would definitely argue that that was on an _individual_ level, because she later goes on to wonder how Hashirama, one man, could have taken him on and won. Also, it's not like the Gokage's lack of belief didn't deter them before. When Madara's Mokuton Bunshin clad in Susano'o had them all on the brink of death, they began to lose hope and admit inferiority to Madara, but Onoki's determination managed to push them into collaborating an attack, that managed to actually destroy 25 giant Susano'o at once. The difference was, when he brought out Perfect Susano'o they had no options left. They didn't anticipate him to have that last trump card. That is part of the reason they were so psychologically affected (I say they, it was really just _Mei Terumi_), because they were fighting an incredibly powerful opponent that they literally had no way of fighting any more.



> And if we are going to compare _Mokuton_ to _Susanō_ with the intention of doing so fairly, we mustn't ignore _Mokuton_ has different variants just like _Susanō_. Equating _Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin_ (a jutsu which focuses on putting opponents to sleep with pollen, not beating them down with brute force) to Perfect _Susanō_ is erroneous, I feel.



I disagree. Just because the jutsu is different in ability and height, it doesn't make it any less potent to ninja like the Gokage. Kajukai Kōrin packs enough potency and scale that it could literally have knocked out the entire alliance at once, and there is almost no defence in the Narutoverse that can protect against tiny, invisible spores in the air that expand over several kilometres. As far as lethality goes, I would argue Kajukai Kōrin was about as threatening to the Gokage as Perfect Susano'o was, the difference then was that they had the chakra to actually deal with it.



> I'm not sure which translation is the correct one. I don't trust most of them to be honest. In any case the end result doesn't change: the Gokage lost.



Fair enough, though Viz is correct more times than not.



> I'm of the opinion Perfect _Susanō_ + double _Kamui_ is better than or equal to those buffs.



Yeah, well I've agreed that Kakashi would win by virtue of his Kamui already.



> Looking at it a little more closely: the Gokage didn't face the full might of the Rinnegan. Madara only cast _Fūjutsu Kyūin _which negates ninjutsu.



Edo Madara was incapable of using all of the abilities of the Rinnegan, the best he could do was absorb chakra and summon meteors, since his rinnegan weren't actually real at that point. Even so, those were still upgrades that a VOTE Madara would not have had.​​


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## Thunder (Aug 9, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No, Madara's Susano'o was still fully materialised at that point (it didn't start to de-materialise until that " ! " appears above Gaara's head in the following panel; and yes, it was _mid-strike_.​




Fair enough. But that still doesn't mean the Gokage possess anything that will halt an attack which causally sliced two mountains in half. 

Tsunade reacting in time to form a _singular_ chakra gathering seal doesn't mean they can mount a proper defense.



> If Susano'o goes intangible then it merely becomes a ethereal aura of chakra, which the Gokage's attack will phase through. That works as more of a disadvantage to Madara than an advantage.



Not sure how becoming invulnerable to all damage is a disadvantage. Obito wasn't at a disadvantage when nobody could touch him.



> The only thing I'm actually arguing is that perfect health Gokage could have dealt with Perfect Susano'o. I've said nothing of them dealing with Susano'o and all of Madara's other techniques simultaneously. I simply meant that Gokage at full power > Edo Madara when he's toying around with them.



Then I'll stop here since our intentions were misunderstood. I'm arguing for Kakashi vs. the Gokage because the topic is about them. Madara was mainly brought up for power scaling purposes regarding Perfect _Susanō_.

And the only points of comparison I can see between them (potentially) are Perfect _Susanō_ and their respective ocular defenses: _Kamui_ and _Fūjutsu Kyūin_. Restricting Kakashi to Perfect _Susanō_ wasn't my intention. 

Kakashi isn't going to play around here so that also didn't factor into my argument. 
​​


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## Ashi (Aug 9, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Is it really hard to realise that Kakashi's PS is completely feat-less?



The forums has a knack for going off intuition rather than what's in black and white


Why would this stop them  


Especially when Kakashi's been at a slump for two whole months


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## Sadgoob (Aug 9, 2014)

It's not like Kakashi needs Perfect Susano'o to win. Between intangibility and Kamui sniping, he can conceivably put down the Five Kage.


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## joshhookway (Aug 20, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> We don't know what his Susano'o does. However, the Gokage cannot handle Perfect Susano'o. They end up crushed.



I don't think PS can handle a jinton.


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## Mister LoLz (Aug 20, 2014)

They can't bypass PS, no chance at all.


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## Hachibi (Aug 20, 2014)

The rape is even worst know. Kamui Shuriken for each Kage


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## Sorin (Aug 20, 2014)

This thread wasn't balanced 2 weeks ago. 

Now it's neg diff for Kakashi.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 20, 2014)

With the most recent chapter, I think it's safe to say that this is a very heavy stomp in favour of Kakashi.


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