# Current Consensus: Itachi vs. Kyuubi



## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2014)

I've done this match before; I just wanted to see where the popular consensus stands on it now. 

Let's just assume that the Kyuubi is on a rampage and Akatsuki sends Itachi to go and handle it.

*Location:* Generic dense forest on the outskirts of Konoha.
*Distance:* 10m
*Knowledge:* Itachi has full knowledge; Kyuubi will recognize that Itachi is an Uchiha after seeing his Sharingan, but has no specific knowledge on him personally.
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Itachi is alive, but not sick and his eyesight is in good condition.
-Itachi will first attempt to subdue the Kyuubi by Genjutsu/MS control. If he cannot do that, he will attempt to subdue/capture it by other means. If that fails, he will attempt to kill/seal it as a last resort.
-The Kyuubi is wild; no Jinchuuriki or handler.
-This is before the Kyuubi got TnJ'd, so it is still feral and resentful of humans. :izanamimaybe

*Scenario 1:* 50% Yang Kyuubi
*Scenario 2:* 100% Kyuubi


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2014)

Kurama completely and utterly destroys Itachi. Far too strong for him. Itachi can't even scratch him with his techniques and I doubt Itachi's genjutsu is stronger than Madara's which is one of the only two Uchiha strong enough to subdue Kurama with their Dojutsu.


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## Itachі (Jun 12, 2014)

Izanami wins this for Itachi. If Izanami doesn't count then I think that Itachi could blindside Kurama and seal him via Totsuka, he's far too small compared to Kurama for him to notice anything.


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2014)

"-Itachi will first attempt to subdue the Kyuubi by Genjutsu/MS control. If he cannot do that, he will attempt to subdue/capture it by other means."

Does that mean that the match starts off with Itachi already looking at Kurama and he tries genjutsu first or does that mean Itachi has to go out his way to try a genjutsu before he can do anything else?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2014)

>One Amaterasu destroys the Hachibi completely.
>Itachi can't scratch the Kyuubi.

Lel.

Also, I don't see anything about not being strong enough to control the Kyuubi here:

kaguya and black zetsu clearly arent the same person
kaguya and black zetsu clearly arent the same person

^Sasuke just says blindness is the price you pay to obtain the power to control the Kyuubi, which sounds like a carte blanche ability to tame the beast once you awaken MS that makes no provision for what is strong enough or not.

Obito pulled it off with just his *normal Sharingan* when he was about 15 or 16 years old:

kaguya and black zetsu clearly arent the same person

15/16-year-old Obito with normal Sharingan > 21-year-old Itachi with Mangekyou Sharingan?

Kakashi stalemated 29-year-old Obito with normal Sharingan Genjutsu:

kaguya and black zetsu clearly arent the same person

Kakashi's not better than Itachi at Genjutsu, either.

It's pretty ridiculous at this point to think that Itachi can't control the Kyuubi. The only thing Obito had going for him was that everybody thought he was Madara; in actuality, he wasn't, though--he was just a scrub-ass Uchiha who awakened MS, which seems to indicate that what Sasuke said about the MS's power to control the Kyuubi is absolute. Like I've been saying for years.

EDIT: For that matter, Obito controlled the 100% Kyuubi. With his normal Sharingan. It's unforgivably retarded to believe that MS Itachi's Genjutsu will have no effect on even the 50% Kyuubi.



Bonly said:


> "-Itachi will first attempt to subdue the Kyuubi by Genjutsu/MS control. If he cannot do that, he will attempt to subdue/capture it by other means."
> 
> Does that mean that the match starts off with Itachi already looking at Kurama and he tries genjutsu first or does that mean Itachi has to go out his way to try a genjutsu before he can do anything else?



I can't imagine how the Kyuubi could possibly look at Itachi without seeing his eyes, personally--simply due to the size difference.

I hope that and the starting distance offer an answer to your question.


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## Fox91 (Jun 12, 2014)

Method 1- Control Kyuubi
Method 2- Susano'o, Sword of Totsuka
Method 3- Amaterasu

Bijuu Dama? Yata Mirror. I don't care if it hasn't been proved that it can deflect every direct attack. It has been stated that it can, so it's valid to me.

Itachi wins. Difficulty? Honestly, with the hax powers of Itachi, I see this an easy win.

Call me a fanboy now


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## Kyu (Jun 12, 2014)

MS suppression should work but if it doesn't Itachi's safest bet is to encase himself inside his Complete _Susano'o_ and slash Kurama with _Totsuka Blade_. 

However at 10 meters not much is stopping stopping Kurama from sending Itachi flying via _Chakra Roar_ followed up with a _Bijudama_ - immediately ending the Uchiha's life.

Amaterasu could possibly kill Kurama if the flames manage to spread over the fox's entire body but Kurama can still obliterate Itachi before that happens.


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I can't imagine how the Kyuubi could possibly look at Itachi without seeing his eyes, personally--*simply due to the size difference*.



That's kinda sizist brah, kinda like a racist but with size instead. You gotta work on that.



> I hope that and the starting distance offer an answer to your question.



Meh that will do Niku, that will do. In that case Itachi uses his genjutsu and successfully calms Kurama.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama completely and utterly destroys Itachi. Far too strong for him. Itachi can't even scratch him with his techniques and I doubt Itachi's genjutsu is stronger than Madara's which is one of the only two Uchiha strong enough to subdue Kurama with their Dojutsu.



I'm sorry.

I can't even wrap my head around the sheer absurdity of what you're implying.

So Obito, half as young as when Kakashi stalemated him with Genjutsu, completely mind controls the 100% Kyuubi with normal Sharingan Genjutsu, yet if Itachi even tries something like Tsukuyomi on the half-Kyuubi with his Mangekyou Sharingan, it won't have any effect?

In other words, a stronger Genjutsu user (Itachi) with a superior Doujutsu (Mangekyou Sharingan) using a stronger Genjutsu (Tsukuyomi) can't replicate what an inferior Genjutsu user (15/16-year-old Obito) did with an inferior Doujutsu (three-tomoe Sharingan) and a weaker Genjutsu (generic Sharingan hypnosis).

Am I understanding that correctly? Please do clear that up for me.



Bonly said:


> That's kinda sizist brah, kinda like a racist but with size instead. You gotta work on that.



I'm not responsible for any Bijuu body image issues.


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## Cognitios (Jun 12, 2014)

Itachi is honestly the perfect Bijuu killer.
Totsuka + Amaterasu + Sharingan Genjutsu is a killer combo that Kyuubi just can't beat.


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## Kyuuzen (Jun 12, 2014)

So I have a legitimate question about this match up.

If someone attempting to use Dojutsu to control you looks into your eyes, what triggers the jutsu?  Does it activate merely when their eyes meet yours, or does your brain have to acknowledge seeing their eyes before it works?

I ask because if Kyuubi looked in Itachi's direction, but due to their massive size difference couldn't really pick out features such as his eyes, but Itachi could easily see Kyuubi's, would his genjutsu still activate?

tl;dr: If you look into my eyes but I somehow don't notice you making eye contact with me, can you still Tsukuyomi me?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> So I have a legitimate question about this match up.
> 
> If someone attempting to use Dojutsu to control you looks into your eyes, what triggers the jutsu?  Does it activate merely when their eyes meet yours, or does your brain have to acknowledge seeing their eyes before it works?
> 
> ...



Obito Genjutsu'd the Kyuubi, at night, when it was restrained in an upright position in the air and he was standing on the ground below it.

I don't think it will be an issue.

Visual Genjutsu appears to operate based on chakra projected from the eyes into a target, through the target's eyes; whether or not they consciously register what they are seeing probably doesn't matter.

Unless eye contact is obscured somehow, the chakra should still be able to make it into the target's eyes.


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## Fox91 (Jun 12, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> So I have a legitimate question about this match up.
> 
> If someone attempting to use Dojutsu to control you looks into your eyes, what triggers the jutsu?  Does it activate merely when their eyes meet yours, or does your brain have to acknowledge seeing their eyes before it works?
> 
> ...



That's a clever question, but what you're asking is beyond the level of complexity of a simple anime, lol. Let's stick to the "if you look me in the eyes, you're done".


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## eyeknockout (Jun 12, 2014)

itachi's fast enough to dodge kyuubi's initial attacks, even if he's not partial susanoo should be able to fight atleast 50% kyuubi blow for blow in physical combat since SM Naruto could and susanoo has shown strength feats on par with SM naruto. 

Itachi's reaction speed is fast enough to react to kyuubi's chakra roar allowing him to put up susanoo as defense and he won't die (since many ninja without the greatest defense susanoo survived CST). Not to mention yata's mirror may possibly just reflect the kyuubi roar.

bijuudama won't defeat itachi since his speed is fast enough to appear behind sasuke, naruto and killer bee within seconds which is capable of dodging the attack like minato could have in base if he didn't need to save everyone. madara's legendary fan could easily reflect naruto's bijuudama powered rasengan which i'd assume to be even stronger than a normal bijuudama since it's more concentration and powered up by rasengan and naruto's chakra, so it wouldn't be a stretch to say yata's mirror (another legendary item could handle some bijuudama.

amaterasu would cause atleast a stalemate for itachi since the kyuubi would probably withstand the flames for a long time but inevitably it will defeat him. 

Nothing really proves that kyuubi could handle itachi's base genjutsu let alone MS genjusu, Tsukiyomi should be an easy win.

Nothing proves kyuubi could withstand totsuka sealing either.

itachi should win both scenarios comfortably.


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## Remsengan (Jun 12, 2014)

Ninjutsu gets Roar'd away.  Genjutsu is a wash unless Itachi has Shinsui's eye.  I don't see Izanami working on most humans, let alone demons.  Even so, there's no way Itachi is going to prep it, and keep Susano'o up, and keep Kurama busy at the same time.

Totsuka is up for debate.  There's not enough info to say for sure but I don't think it could work.  Otherwise Itachi would have just ruined Madara by sealing a Biju forever in the gourd.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 12, 2014)

MS controls Kyubi
Itachi got MS mastered
Itachi got mad genjutsu hype
Sasuke with 3-tomoe suppressed Kyubi's leak inside Naruto
A major point of Uchiha Massacre was about suspicion that some random Uchiha was responsible for unleashing Kyubi

It baffles me every time I see people deny Itachi Kyubi-suppression.


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama completely and utterly destroys Itachi. Far too strong for him. Itachi can't even scratch him with his techniques and I doubt Itachi's genjutsu is stronger than Madara's which is one of the only two Uchiha strong enough to subdue Kurama with their Dojutsu.



SSM12 here to quick downplay Itachi for the first point. I'll give you 10 points for swiftness and effort.

On topic: 
-Itachi's genjutsu's Kurama. GG.


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## Veracity (Jun 12, 2014)

Itachi has 3 options here:
• Genjustu: but I feel as if Itachi lacks the chakra to control something so powerful.
• Amaterasu: which ultimately ends in a draw considering the moment Kurama catches fire is the moment BD'S and Rapid fire BD'S blow Itachi off the planet.
• Totsuka: which would never work , cause Itachi can't possibly get close enough to Kurama to use it.

All in all , Kurama is one a tier above Itachi, but Itachi is a pretty good counter for the Kyuubi.


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Itachi has 3 options here:
> ? Genjustu: but I feel as if Itachi lacks the chakra to control something so powerful.


Hebi Sauce controlled Manda who didn't even fuck with Orochimaru, and made him Hari Kari to save his ass. Since when was it mentioned that you need crazy chakra amounts to control something? That sounds like an inference you came up with not based on cannon. If Itachi could use MS he can control the damn Kyuubi lol. 


> ? Amaterasu: which ultimately ends in a draw considering the moment Kurama catches fire is the moment BD'S and Rapid fire BD'S blow Itachi off the planet.


Kinda hard to focus a TBB with your whole body burning. Hell even Hachibi was howling in Pain. Ya know the same one who took a massive TBB explosion to the face. What's more is you think Itachi will just stand there? He would position himself via clones, and what not to go in for the money shot.


> ? Totsuka: which would never work , cause Itachi can't possibly get close enough to Kurama to use it.


We start off at ten meters. Itachi is a master bushin user against a feral animal. Also Totsuka can extend itself, so Itachi doesn't have to get to close.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 12, 2014)

Nothing short of Bijuudama and/or chakra roar will take out Base Itachi...
When his MS and Susano'o are added to the equation, he's got the thing outclassed. 

- The Kyuubi has never actively tried to avoid genjutsu, and it's ridiculous to state otherwise in this match-up. 
- It's canonically weak before Sharingan, let alone Mangekyou.
- Its true power comes from combining power with a Jin.

V4 Susano'o w/ Yata no Kagami can outright tank anything that isn't Super Bijuudama, but Kyuubi wouldn't be alive long enough to use such a technique. Actually, the notion that it would be able to use SB before Itachi casts Amaterasu or Totsuka stabs is laughable. In the end, he just has far more ways to come out victorious. 


The particular match is bad, as I don't think Itachi  is much stronger than 100% Kyuubi...when it comes to tiers.
Mangekyou-wielding Uchiha and Mokuton are perfect counters to lone Bijuu.


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## Remsengan (Jun 12, 2014)

alex payne said:


> MS controls Kyubi
> Itachi got MS mastered
> Itachi got mad genjutsu hype
> Sasuke with 3-tomoe suppressed Kyubi's leak inside Naruto
> ...



Madara and Obito controlled the Kyubi.  There were other Uchiha in Madara's era that had MS yet he is the only one who was attributed to be able to control Biju.

Hype isn't feats.  

Sasuke also got ran down by Bee and made no attempt to even control Hachibi.

People deny it because there's no proof.  Itachi spoke of Madara as some fantasy, but never claimed to mirror his prowess.  That include's controlling Biju


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm sorry.
> 
> I can't even wrap my head around the sheer absurdity of what you're implying.
> 
> ...


Obito is explicitly the stronger Genjutsu user. He was able to control a Perfect Jinchuriki for YEARS, something Itachi was unable to do (Bee broke his Genjutsu with ease). Kakashi equalling Obito _in the War arc after Kakashi had improved by leaps and bounds_ means Kakashi is superior to Itachi now in pure genjutsu too.

Obito also has Hashirama's cells improving him too. Remember, his genjutsu prowess was so good he could control Kurama, the only other Uchiha to do so is Madara who also had Indra's chakra backing him up. 

Sorry, Itachi doesn't have the feats for controlling Biju.


> I'm not responsible for any Bijuu body image issues.


You constantly underestimate and downplay Biju for your favorites.


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## ueharakk (Jun 12, 2014)

*Unless itachi has a summoning contract with the kyuubi, he's not controlling it with genjutsu.*

Amaterasu at best turns it into a double K.O. as the kyuubi is far more durable than the hachibi, far larger, has far better regen, can block it with its tails, or it can outright dodge the technique if the distance is far enough.  Kurama nukes itachi into nothing long before it succums to the flames.  

Totsuka isn't piercing the kyuubi when FRS and SM Chou oodama Rasengan barrage fails to even draw blood from 50% Kurama.

Yaata isn't blocking standard bijuudamas, nor is itachi going to be holding up a V4 susanoo for long enough to protect him from kurama's attacks.  

Itachi at best stalemates with amaterasu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2014)

Amaterasu is probably blown away by a Chakra Roar. Shinra Tensei could blow it off, the Chakra Roar should be able to do the same.


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## Fox91 (Jun 12, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Obito is explicitly the stronger Genjutsu user. He was able to control a Perfect Jinchuriki for YEARS, something Itachi was unable to do (Bee broke his Genjutsu with ease). Kakashi equalling Obito _in the War arc after Kakashi had improved by leaps and bounds_ means Kakashi is superior to Itachi now in pure genjutsu too.
> 
> Obito also has Hashirama's cells improving him too. Remember, his genjutsu prowess was so good he could control Kurama, the only other Uchiha to do so is Madara who also had Indra's chakra backing him up.



Don't know if retarded or anti Itachi...

Obito with stronger genjutsu than Itachi? Just because he controlled Kyuubi? Itachi could do the same. *ALL MS Uchiha's can control a tailed beast.* It is stated that Shisui is the strongest genjutsu user of all. Itachi is clearly the second.

Now, your hate for Itachi goes even beyond the limits of stupidity, saying that Kakashi is better at genjutsu than Itachi. LOL



Remsengan said:


> Genjutsu is a wash unless Itachi has Shinsui's eye.



Obito could control Kyuubi and he's not even close to genjutsu mastery, like Shisui or Itachi.



Remsengan said:


> I don't see Izanami working on most humans, let alone demons.  Even so, there's no way Itachi is going to prep it, and keep Susano'o up, and keep Kurama busy at the same time.



Proof that Izanami can't work on most humans and demons?
Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto...Remember? He was way more busy, trying to make up the "boar tactic" with Sasuke, trying to protect his brother and prep Izanami, while on Susano'o mode.



Remsengan said:


> Totsuka is up for debate.  There's not enough info to say for sure but I don't think it could work.  Otherwise Itachi would have just ruined Madara by sealing a Biju forever in the gourd.



Not enough info? Do you even read?





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Amaterasu is probably blown away by a Chakra Roar. Shinra Tensei could blow it off, the Chakra Roar should be able to do the same.



Says the guy that argues about everything being an Hyperbole...


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## Kyuuzen (Jun 12, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> *Unless itachi has a summoning contract with the kyuubi, he's not controlling it with genjutsu.*
> 
> Amaterasu at best turns it into a double K.O. as the kyuubi is far more durable than the hachibi, far larger, has far better regen, can block it with its tails, or it can outright dodge the technique if the distance is far enough.  Kurama nukes itachi into nothing long before it succums to the flames.
> 
> ...



Where are you getting that information?

Sasuke was able to suppress the Kyuubi through Dojutsu when Naruto tried to use its power.  Obito used Genjutsu to control the Kyuubi only after it was pulled out of Kushina.  Madara found Kyuubi in the wild before using the Sharingan.  None of them had a summoning contract, they all just used the Sharingan to control the nine tails.

Amaterasu doesn't stalemate by any stretch of the imagination.  Kyuubi can't block it with tails, because it will catch fire.  Kyuubi can't dodge it because it hasn't shown the necessary speed.  It may be huge and can cross vast amounts of land with single steps, but that just means it's an easier target for Amaterasu.  Kurama's not firing anything while it's being roasted.  Hachibi couldn't and yes, Kurama may be more powerful than Gyuki, but the only area he has been shown to be better is in his Bijuudama skills, not durability or regen.

Totsuka is far beyond Naruto's Rasengan variants, and totally negates things like regen.  There is no way we can just assume Kurama is immune to it, that's a no limits fallacy.

On the point of Yata's Mirror, we agree, I highly doubt that it will tank a Bijuudama at all.

In the end, Itachi may not be the most physically powerful character, but he's got some pretty huge haxx.  Amaterasu and Totsuka can handle Kyuubi, but that doesn't mean Itachi can survive before being taken down, especially since his goal is to first capture the beast.  Sharingan control is definitely a factor here, which can GG pretty effectively, but I still say Itachi takes this High Diff.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Amaterasu is probably blown away by a Chakra Roar. Shinra Tensei could blow it off, the Chakra Roar should be able to do the same.



Shinra Tensei and Chakra Roar don't have the same properties.  Shinra Tensei is an AoE technique that inflicts the entire area around Nagato.  Kyuubi can't fire a chakra roar out of his back, or the top of his head, or his eye.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2014)

Fox91 said:


> Don't know if retarded or anti Itachi...
> 
> Obito with stronger genjutsu than Itachi? Just because he controlled Kyuubi? Itachi could do the same. *ALL MS Uchiha's can control a tailed beast.* It is stated that Shisui is the strongest genjutsu user of all. Itachi is clearly the second.
> 
> Now, your hate for Itachi goes even beyond the limits of stupidity, saying that Kakashi is better at genjutsu than Itachi. LOL


Obito's stronger than Itachi with Genjutsu because he could control a perfect Jinchuriki for years. Itachi tried to do the same with Killer Bee, but it failed. Not to mention ONLY Madara and Obito out of the _entire Uchiha Clan_ had accomplished the feat of controlling Kurama. Hell Obito could control five Biju at once with his genjutsu.

Itachi had no idea Obito was alive, nor that he gotten training from Madara himself.

Its not 'anti-Itachi', its facts kid.



Fox91 said:


> Not enough info? Do you even read?


[/quote]
That is hyperbole.



Fox91 said:


> Says the guy that argues about everything being an Hyperbole...


...you do know that Itachi's abilities HAVE been exaggerated and Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword lack any feats to back up said hype, right?

Fox91, stop acting like Itachi is the strongest. He isn't.


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## Fox91 (Jun 12, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Obito's stronger than Itachi with Genjutsu because he could control a perfect Jinchuriki for years. Itachi tried to do the same with Killer Bee, but it failed. Not to mention ONLY Madara and Obito out of the _entire Uchiha Clan_ had accomplished the feat of controlling Kurama. Hell Obito could control five Biju at once with his genjutsu.
> 
> Itachi had no idea Obito was alive, nor that he gotten training from Madara himself.
> 
> Its not 'anti-Itachi', its facts kid.



Itachi tried to genjutsu Killer Bee, not Hachibi. Get your shit together. Every Jinchuriki can break an illusion with the help of the tailed beast. Kyuubi is by itself.

You can't even get your facts right...

Oh, and btw:





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...you do know that Itachi's abilities HAVE been exaggerated and Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword lack any feats to back up said hype, right?



Nope.

Sword of Totsuka sealed Orochimaru and Nagato. It does have facts to back it up.

Chakra Roar lacks the feats to back up the blasphemy you said, pal.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2014)

Fox91 said:


> Obito could control Kyuubi and he's not even close to genjutsu mastery, like Shisui or Itachi.


Obito could control a perfect Jinchuriki unlike Itachi or Shisui, and gotten trained by Madara himself. That puts him far higher on the tier.




> Proof that Izanami can't work on most humans and demons?
> Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto...Remember? He was way more busy, trying to make up the "boar tactic" with Sasuke, trying to protect his brother and prep Izanami, while on Susano'o mode.


Izanami is useless against Kurama. Kurama isn't trying to be anyone else but himself nor is he abusing Izanagi. And Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto-where Kabuto bisected him, stabbed him, impaled him on rocks...




> Itachi tried to genjutsu Killer Bee, not Hachibi. Get your shit together. Every Jinchuriki can break an illusion with the help of the tailed beast. Kyuubi is by itself.
> 
> You can't even get your facts right...


Its the same exact thing. And Obito was able to cast a Genjutsu on Yagura and Yagura, _despite_ being a Perfect Jinchuriki was _unable to break it._ Hell by Ao's own admission, the genjutsu that Obito used to control Yagura was near the same level of power of Kotoamatsukami.

You didn't even know who I was talking about.


> Oh, and btw:


Which is why Obito dicked around with Itachi, sent Pain to attack Konoha while Itachi was still alive, sent Kakuzu and Hidan to attack Konoha while Itachi was still alive...

Obito was moving against Konoha while Itachi was still alive, backstabbing him every step of the way.


Fox91 said:


> Nope.
> 
> Sword of Totsuka sealed Orochimaru and Nagato. It does have facts to back it up.


Orochimaru and Nagato have as much chakra as Kurama since when? Have defenses that can tank 27 Cho Odama Rasengan's and three Rasenshuriken's? Sorry it doesn't, especially since Nagato _let_ himself be sealed.


> Chakra Roar lacks the feats to back up the blasphemy you said, pal.


Other than blowing away entire city blocks, destroying a suspension bridge in a far weaker form, and dispelling a Senjutsu empowered Cho Odama Rasengan or tossing five Biju away?


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## Cognitios (Jun 12, 2014)

Lol @ totsuka not having feats to back it up.
It doesn't have a single example of it being unsuccessful. 
> Hype from Kaguya's will 
> Sealed Oro (probably most knowledgable person of seals alive at that time)
> Sealed Nagato (Uzumaki, a clan known for it's sealing usage and Rinnegan User)
In fact everything implies it probably can seal anything.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Lol @ totsuka not having feats to back it up.
> It doesn't have a single example of it being unsuccessful.
> > Hype from Kaguya's will
> > Sealed Oro (probably most knowledgable person of seals alive at that time)
> ...


Its still hyperbole. Sealing Nagato (who let it happen) and Orochimaru does NOT mean it can seal Kurama. Especially since Itachi lacks the chakra for such a feat.


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## Fox91 (Jun 12, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Obito could control a perfect Jinchuriki unlike Itachi or Shisui, and gotten trained by Madara himself. That puts him far higher on the tier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi and Shisui had good values, why would they want to control Kyuubi? Just because they didn't, it doesn't mean they couldn't. Do you want facts? Shisui was the greatest genjutsu user of all time. That alone proves that he's better at genjutsu than Obito.

I'll stop here. This is just a forum, you're just a hater and I got better things to do. At least you make me laugh .


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## Ether (Jun 12, 2014)

Genjutsu would be his best option along with totsuka blade.
Amaterasu would take a while for it to burn kurama completely.
Kyuubi would just bijuudama him and unless Yata mirror can block that he's screwed.
Itachi tsukuyomi's him and seals him with totsuka blade.


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## Fox91 (Jun 12, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Lol @ totsuka not having feats to back it up.
> It doesn't have a single example of it being unsuccessful.
> > Hype from Kaguya's will
> > Sealed Oro (probably most knowledgable person of seals alive at that time)
> ...



Someone with a brain, at last.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2014)

Fox91 said:


> Itachi and Shisui had good values, why would they want to control Kyuubi? Just because they didn't, it doesn't mean they couldn't. Do you want facts? Shisui was the greatest genjutsu user of all time. That alone proves that he's better at genjutsu than Obito.


Itachi, if he could control Kurama-he would have done so and stopped Naruto from using Kurama's chakra in Part I or during their skirmish when he had no choice to attack with his best attempt.

And...no, Madara is greater than Shisui. Obito got Madara's training.


> I'll stop here. This is just a forum, you're just a hater and I got better things to do. At least you make me laugh .


You aren't going to make a lot of friends here if you can't decipher facts from hype.



Fox91 said:


> Someone with a brain, at last.


Cept it isn't. Hype doesn't equal feats.


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## Cognitios (Jun 12, 2014)

> Its still hyperbole. Sealing Nagato (who let it happen) and Orochimaru does NOT mean it can seal Kurama. Especially since Itachi lacks the chakra for such a feat.


> says feats are a hyberbole
> says chakra required for a tool he has proven he can use on monster chakra beasts
We know that itachi can seal monster chakra, as seen with Nagato and Orochimaru, both of which are around bijuu level if not surpassing it in the case of Edo Nagato.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 12, 2014)

I wouldn't say it's far-fetched to believe that Itachi could simply control the Kyūbi. The Mangekyō Sharingan is confirmed to be able to do so and Obito managed to play the fox like a fiddle. Itachi is more or less the preeminent Uchiha when it comes to genjutsu, with the exception of Shisui as far as power comes and has received far more hype when it comes to using illusions than Obito. Bear in mind, also, that Obito had only one eye at the time, and it's been recently illuminated that the Sharingan is far stronger than both are together. 

Furthermore, it's worth noting that Sasuke was also able to suppress the Kyūbi with his base Sharingan and in respects to both ocular and illusory prowess, he was nowhere near Itachi's level at the time. 

Other than that, in straight up combat scenario he would lose. Amaterasu affected the Hachibi, but as far as feats are concerned, he's vastly inferior to even 50% Kurama, who was able to take on seven bijū at once while Gyūki was having trouble with one or two. A full power Kyūbi should have no trouble dealing with it, and it's very likely he'd just roar Itachi back even under damage from the flames.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 12, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi, if he could control Kurama-he would have done so and stopped Naruto from using Kurama's chakra in Part I or during their skirmish when he had no choice to attack with his best attempt.



So you're implying that Itachi, a heir of Mangekyou Sharingan, couldn't have controlled Kurama within P1 Naruto? 

Didn't Base Sasuke suppress Kurama in P2 Naruto (beginning of Shippuden)? 


-snip-


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> > says feats are a hyberbole
> > says chakra required for a tool he has proven he can use on monster chakra beasts
> We know that itachi can seal monster chakra, as seen with Nagato and Orochimaru, both of which are around bijuu level if not surpassing it in the case of Edo Nagato.


Nagato's chakra is still far inferior to Kurama's. Remember, Kurama's chakra is so strong that if sealed into the Gedo Mazo before the other Biju's, it'd destroy it instead of making the Juubi.

And plus, that feat is when Itachi _himself is an Edo Tensei with unlimited chakra._


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## Kai (Jun 12, 2014)

Mangekyo controls Kyuubi, as stated. Itachi tames Kurama without bloodshed.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2014)

Match still depends on how Kyuubi control works and the limits of Totsuka-Sword. Nothing has changed.


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

> SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
> 
> 
> > Nagato's chakra is still far inferior to Kurama's. Remember, Kurama's chakra is so strong that if sealed into the Gedo Mazo before the other Biju's, it'd destroy it instead of making the Juubi.
> ...


Minato who doesn't have any special background (uchiha were mentioned at least to have strong chakra) was able to house half the kyuubi within himself, likewise baby Naruto (despite being an uzumaki, I'm pretty sure the plan wasn't to have him get KYuubi as an infant) was able to do the same. Itachi doesn't have to house the Kyuubi in his body, it goes *into a fucking ethereal body which uses Fuinjutsu (like Minato) to seal the target in an endless genjutsu.*

But nah the ethereal, legendary imperial sword is outshone by Baby Naruto  Stay classy SSM12.

Also Edo's don't have unlimited chakra's. They just can't run out of chakra because there body isn't living and there sould is bound to the body. I'm pretty sure we have seen edo's charging there chakra's for attacks during the war meaning they can't just start pulling out moves they otherwise couldn't have used (in an individual use). Otherwise pretty much all the edo's feats(like Minato warping Bjuudama) go out the window. Once again this is sidestepping the fact that Itachi's chakra has nothing to do with the housing of what totsuka seals.



Turrin said:


> Match still depends on how Kyuubi control works and the limits of Totsuka-Sword. Nothing has changed.


It is clear as day that any MS wielding sharingan user can control the kyuubi. Obito did it with one sharingan in 3 tomoe state as a 16 year old. Itachi is portrayed as the best genjutsu user in the manga bar Shisui. (at least in sharingan usage which is the best in verse regarding genjutsu) yet somehow he'll have a problem?

Sharingan has been proven time and time again, whether it be in 3 tomoe form, or MS to be the Kyuubi's natural nemesis. It's also ridiculous to think he could avoid it considering he was caught twice by uchiha who approached him. Itachi also has hype of long range genjutsu ability. Don't see him losing here.


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## eyeknockout (Jun 12, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Nagato's chakra is still far inferior to Kurama's. Remember, Kurama's chakra is so strong that if sealed into the Gedo Mazo before the other Biju's, it'd destroy it instead of making the Juubi.
> 
> And plus, that feat is when Itachi _himself is an Edo Tensei with unlimited chakra._



i used to believe you actually believed the things you'd say and that your hate towards itachi just blinded your judgement, but reading through this thread really made me believe you're doing this on purpose just to get a reaction. What you're saying seriously doesn't make sense.

1. Kakashi's genjutsu prowess is nowhere near itachi's
2. yata's mirror is a spiritual legendary weapon just like madara's fan which block a rasengan charged bijuudama easily
3. hachibi's ink seal was strong enough to seal 6 jinchurikis, so why would itachi's totsuka (a stronger character and a more hyped sealing weapon) not be able to seal one bijuu?
4. madara's v2 susanoo blocked naruto bijuudama powered rasengan (which is likely much stronger than a normal bijuudama) so why would itachi's v4 along with yata's mirror be unable to block a bijuudama? especially if the bijuudama goes towards itachi in ball form then it'd just bounce off yata's mirror and hit kyuubi instead (like when it bounced off naruto's hand or when the juubi flicked it).
5. itachi genjutsu'd killer bee when he was in base and it still got him, also the genjutsu was not a long term one that's why itachi's kunai were already flying towards killer bee since itachi knew it wouldn't hold hachibi. Also the rule was that uchihas could control the *kyuubi * so i don't know why you'd talk about killer bee since that's the hachibi so he doesn't apply, even though itachi probably could control him if he actually tried to.
6. itachi wins


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 12, 2014)

I don't see the point of this thread with sharingan control allowed. Because Itachi walks up to Kyuubi and casually turns him into his pet fox.

If thats restricted, I think it'd depend on whether Totsuka could seal Kyuubi or not. Or whether Kyuubi can shed body parts like Juubi to survive Amaterasu.


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## Kaiser (Jun 12, 2014)

Minato said even Madara with his huge chakra reserve couldn't control Kyubi for long, so i'm iffy concerning Itachi's control and his time-limit in this case


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

Blake said:


> Minato said even Madara with his huge chakra reserve couldn't control Kyubi for long, so i'm iffy concerning Itachi's control and his time-limit in this case



We saw Madara control him for a whole battle with Hashirama. This is while he is multitasking using his chakra to fight Hashirama an actively draining it along the way. Madara didn't even have stamina issues with it, as the only reason the kyuubi stopped was because Hashi put it to sleep. I know Madara has alot more stamina than Itachi, but not so much that even after most of his fight with Shinsensenju and Hashi that he was still > Itachi enough to conclude Itachi wouldn't be able to do so.


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## ueharakk (Jun 12, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> Where are you getting that information?
> 
> Sasuke was able to suppress the Kyuubi through Dojutsu when Naruto tried to use its power.  Obito used Genjutsu to control the Kyuubi only after it was pulled out of Kushina.  Madara found Kyuubi in the wild before using the Sharingan.  *None of them had a summoning contract, they all just used the Sharingan to control the nine tails.*


I don't see how the bolded is true.  Sure sasuke can suppress a tiny portion of the kyuubi's chakra back into its cage while Naruto is actively trying to do the same.  Other than that, you have no evidence that madara didn't have a contract with kurama at that time, or if he even randomly found it rather than had just summoned it.  Obito had to have had a contract with Kurama as well.

At the end of the day, if a sharingan user didn't need a contract with kurama in order to control it, then minato using a contract seal on Obito wouldn't have instantly released the kyuubi from his control.  So no, the contract seal is required in order to control the kyuubi.



I Am Anarchy said:


> Amaterasu doesn't stalemate by any stretch of the imagination.  Kyuubi can't block it with tails, because it will catch fire.  Kyuubi can't dodge it because it hasn't shown the necessary speed.  It may be huge and can cross vast amounts of land with single steps, but that just means it's an easier target for Amaterasu.  Kurama's not firing anything while it's being roasted.  Hachibi couldn't and yes, Kurama may be more powerful than Gyuki, but the only area he has been shown to be better is in his Bijuudama skills, not durability or regen.


Tails are huge, and 50% kurama blocked senpou chou oodama rasengan with them without any pain.  Amaterasu isn't nearly as damaging as that jutsu while the rasengan is active, kurama can have his tails lit and still fight at 100% capacity.

The kyuubi most definitely can dodge it if the distance is far enough as we've seen that at 50% it's considered fast by SM Naruto's standards and we've seen that at a distance amaterasu travels as a fireball.  

And what is this?  Kurama is most definitely FAR more durable than the hachibi, he doesn't just trump the 8tails in raw power.   And then there's the fact that people like base Ei who aren't even on close to the level of durability as the kyuubi aren't even affected by the burn.  Next is the fact that the kyuubi is far larger than the gyuuki, and thus would require itachi to fire a larger amaterasu than anything we've seen in the manga in order to light a significant portion of the kyuubi on fire.  So once again, amaterasu isn't gg, it lights the kyuubi if itachi is close enough and he gets ended long before the beast is significantly affected by the burn.




I Am Anarchy said:


> Totsuka is far beyond Naruto's Rasengan variants, and totally negates things like regen.  There is no way we can just assume Kurama is immune to it, that's a no limits fallacy.




Since when is totsuka 'far beyond' Naruto's rasengan variants?  What's the best piercing feat totsuka has and how does that put it above SM FRS which didn't even draw blood against Kurama? 

Where are you getting no limits fallacy?  My entire argument was based upon comparing totsuka to FRS or rasengan variants. no limits fallacy would be saying 'totsuka pierces the kyuubi since we haven't seen the limits of totsuka's piercing ability'.


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## StickaStick (Jun 12, 2014)

Mads and Obito are the only two Sharingan wielders to canonically _control_ the Kyuubi. It's no coincidence that Mads was the first stated to do it and his pupil (Obito) was the second and only other. The reasonabe extrapolation to take from this is that the Sharingan grants the potential to control the Kyuubi, but not necessarily the inherent ability. Some people are pointing towards Sasuke's demonstration of suppressing the Kyuubi with his 3-tomoe. The issue here is that suppressing =/= controlling. To grant Itachi this feat by association when only two other Sharingan wielders--who are both superior to Itachi in genjustsu--have accomplished the feat seems questionable to me.

With the said I would not surprise me if Obito somewhere down the line did teach Itachi how to suppress the Kyuubi with the Sharingan as Itachi did refer to him as his "teacher". In fact, it would make a lot of sense considering the obvious advantage the ability grants when hunting bijuu--in particular the Kyuubi. However, this is merely an assumption on my part (even if a strong one I feel) and not necessarily supported by anything canon to the manga. 

Moving on I also have doubts as to whether Totsuka will be any use here. First of all, it's only ever been successful on stationary targets. The Kyuubi here will not be stationary for the requisite amount of time I figure that would be needed to seal him unless Itachi can pull off something especially ingenious. Second, it's questionable whether a figure of the Kyuubi's size and chakra density could reasonably sealed by a sword that only boasts feats of sealing significantly lesser entities. 

Itachi's best bet IMO is catching the Kyuubi's blind side with an Ama, which for a keen strategist such as Itachi shouldn't be terribly difficult. The Kyuubi will have no means of suppressing or extinguishing the flames as far as I'm aware--particularly with his limited field of vision--so even though it should take the flames a decent amount of time to spread, if Itachi keeps his distance and keeps the Kyuubi off balance with Kage Bunshin he should be okay. The issue here is whether Itachi can get this far given that the starting distance is a serious disadvantage to him. If Kyuubi starts off with the big guns at the outset Itachi will be in serious trouble as I don't see v4 Susanoo and Yata Mirror (with Itachi as the user) being of much, if any, defense here. However, the OP does stipulate the Kyuubi as IC so I don't see that being the case. Itachi should be able to put himself in a position to land a well-positioned Ama.

Itachi wins with moderate difficulty.


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

-You don't need a contract to control the Kyuubi. You need a contract to summon Kyuubi from place to place. That was how Obito was able to summon it in the middle of Konoha. Madara tried to use Kyuubi as soon as he was summoned and saw it was occupying someone. But Itachi could easily control the fox. Minato's jutsu took away Obito's summon power which also took away the chakra controlling the kyuubi's brain. It was because he has him as a summon that Minato could do that. That doesn't imply you need a contract with the kyuubi in any way. 

Itachi doesn't need to do any of what you are talking about. Itachi has shown to go for vital points when actually trying to incapacitate with Amaterasu (he aimed at Sasuke's wing because he wasn't trying to kill him.). Vs Cerberus and the bird he went for there faces, eyes, etc. From there he can just let it burn because it can't be put out.  If Kyuubi has Amaterau actively burnning his mouth, eyes, and nose he won't be able to look for Itachi let alone aim attacks at him. Ei is a fucking tank and thought sasuke murdered his brother, Hachibi was caught off guard and we saw the results. Amaterasu isn't like conventional damage because it isn't reliant on durability since it is burning the target and unlike regular fire sticks to anything and won't go out. Hence why the Hachibi can take a TBB explosion to the face yet cream in pain and get soloed by Ama. 

-Totsuka is way more special than most jutsu I don't get what people don't see about this. They are based off of things prominent in eastern culture and represent the perfect offense and defense wielded by one of the most powerful entities/jutsu's in Susano. It is completely ethereal so it is not reliant on durability. It easily plowed through the snake summon who was bigger than manda, and snaked mind you are extremely hard to slice or pierce. Prime Nagato should be easily multi block level especially considering he tanked Hanzo's tags at the cost of being mobile and saved Konan in that time. If either Madara or Sasuke (who should have the damn weapons) used these weapons with their Susano's they would be nigh unstoppable.



> The Format said:
> 
> 
> > .To grant Itachi this feat by association when only two other Sharingan wielders--who are both superior to Itachi in genjustsu--have accomplished the feat seems questionable to me.


 Itachi is > Obito and Madara when it comes to genjutsu brah. This is made blatently clear by Kishi. Itachi's MS is the only one to awaken Tsukuyomi so far, in so much that he controls time, space, and matter indefinitely. Madara has only shown generic MS sharingan genjutsu which, Sasuke had shown earlier after his transplant. Obito doesn't even have two sharingan, and his only boast is being able to use Izanagi. 

Also Madara, sasuke, and Itachi all awakened their shit through skill. Obito was taught his stuff and given the keys (hashi DNA and elaborate plan by madara) to succeed. Despite this Itachi still has the best genjutsu. 
any sharingan user worth their salt can control Kyuubi. Hence why he hates Madara, and was surpressed by sasuke who had no intention of dealing with him.



> With the said I would not surprise me if Obito somewhere down the line did teach Itachi how to suppress the Kyuubi with the Sharingan as Itachi did refer to him as his "teacher". In fact, it would make a lot of sense considering the obvious advantage the ability grants when hunting bijuu--in particular the Kyuubi. However, this is merely an assumption on my part (even if a strong one I feel) and not necessarily supported by anything canon to the manga.


-Itachi never learned from Obito, that was part of his act.
-Itachi didn't ever participate in hunting bjuu except with Konoha, a mission he threw on purpose.



> Moving on I also have doubts as to whether Totsuka will be any use here. First of all, it's only ever been successful on stationary targets. The Kyuubi here will not be stationary for the requisite amount of time I figure that would be needed to seal him unless Itachi can pull off something especially ingenious. Second, it's questionable whether a figure of the Kyuubi's size and chakra density could reasonably sealed by a sword that only boasts feats of sealing significantly lesser entities.


You mean the thing that is constantly being hit while stationary? FCD hit Kurama, He has been genjutsu'd while stationary, hit by FRS, Chou Odama Rasengan, hell Naruto even grabbed him at one point, yet the huge ass construct of Susano can't extend it's sword through Kyuubi?

Just thought I'd see your point of view more in depth.


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## Ashi (Jun 12, 2014)

Yikes these flock of Itachi fanboys honestly think Itachi can defeat nine tails...


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Yikes these flock of Itachi fanboys honestly think Itachi can defeat nine tails...



I like the part in this post where the person demonstrates his or her knowledge on the subject.


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## eyeknockout (Jun 12, 2014)

i find it disappointing people think madara's genjutsu prowess is better than itachi's when madara has nowhere near itachi's genjutsu hype or feats, but people assume because he's madara it's a given.

if that's the case, does that mean madara's taijutsu is greater than 8 gates guy just because he's madara?

does that mean madara's battle tactics are as good as kakashi's just because he's madara?

does that mean madara's sexy jutsu is as good as konohamaru's just because he's madara?


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 12, 2014)

Konoha though a bunch of fodder uchiha, was responsible for the 9 tails attack,  yet somehow the most proficient Uchiha in genjutsu won't be able to control the 9 tails? People seriously need to learn how to paraphrase.


to think that itachi with Ms and tsukiyomi couldn't at the very very least match 13 year old obito's base sharingon is beyond me, it seems itachi is either really wanked or really underestimated never in between.


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## StickaStick (Jun 12, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi is > Obito and Madara when it comes to genjutsu brah.


This isn't supported by anything. Itachi's claim to fame his is vast array of genjustu utilizations and tricks. While impressive, they're more neat than overbearing. 



> This is made blatently clear by Kishi. Itachi's MS is the only one to awaken Tsukuyomi so far, in so much that he controls time, space, and matter indefinitely. Madara has only shown generic MS sharingan genjutsu which, Sasuke had shown earlier after his transplant. Obito doesn't even have two sharingan, and his only boast is being able to use Izanagi.


Honestly, I feel almost silly having to defend why Mads > Itachi in genjutsu so I'll be brief. Besides being portrayed as the pinnacle Uchiha, which I have no doubt extends to all facets, Mads has the distinction of of being first and one of the only to control the Kyuubi with his Sharingan. Furthermore, being one of Indra's reincarnates and the first to unlock EMS grants him a special chakra and Sharingan which only makes sense to increase the potency of his genjutsu. To suggest that this combined with Mads' extensive experience and life-span advantage ad compared to Itachi doesn't place him above Itachi in genjutsu specifically seems ridiculous to me. 

Obito holds the distinction of being the second individual to control the Kyuubi which his Sharingan and has demonstrated a genjustu proficiency so adept that he was able to control a Perfect Jin with a genjutsu that was compared similarly to Koto, the signature MS ability of the Uchiha clan's most powerful genjutsu user.

Tsukuyomi was overcome by Hebi Sasuke. And please don't give me that spiel of Itachi's tanking the fight. Allowing Sasuke to break through it doesn't serve Itachi's purpose in that fight by the least and in fact it makes a great deal of sense that Itachi intended Tsukuyomi to accomplish what he wanted to do and was genuinely surprised that Sasuke was able to avoid being hit by it. 



> Also Madara, sasuke, and Itachi all awakened their shit through skill. Obito was taught his stuff and given the keys (hashi DNA and elaborate plan by madara) to succeed.


Not entirely true, but irrelevant nonetheless. 



> *any sharingan user worth their salt can control Kyuubi.* Hence why he hates Madara, and was surpressed by sasuke who had no intention of dealing with him.


Which is why we have an abundance of examples to substantiate your point 

Also, again, suppressing =/= controlling.



> -Itachi never learned from Obito, that was part of his act.


I'm willing to believe this but claiming such serves Itachi's purpose in no way and the comment to me came off more as off-handed. Telling Sasuke that Mads (Obito) was the one that assisted him was all Sasuke wanted to know and needed to do the job.



> -Itachi didn't ever participate in hunting bjuu except with Konoha, a mission he threw on purpose.






> You mean the thing that is constantly being hit while stationary? FCD hit Kurama, He has been genjutsu'd while stationary, hit by FRS, Chou Odama Rasengan, hell Naruto even grabbed him at one point, yet the huge ass construct of Susano can't extend it's sword through Kyuubi?
> 
> Just thought I'd see your point of view more in depth.


I will grant you that Kyuubi doesn't seem like the most astute of creatures (why he keeps looking in Sharingan user's eyes when he should be aware of a specific thing happening, who the fuck knows); however the difference between the attacks you listed and Totsuka is that the attacks you listed do their damage on contact while Totsuka takes time to actually seal its target. Once FRS, for instance, makes contract the damage is done. In contrast, against Totsuka the Kyuubi should be able to move and avoid being sealed after initially hit as Totsuka doesn't restrain movement as far as I'm aware and doesn't seal instantly. There is again also the issue of sealing an object with the chakra density that the Kyuubi has.



eyeknockout said:


> if that's the case, does that mean madara's taijutsu is greater than 8 gates guy just because he's madara?


Mads was never noted for his taijutsu prowess. On the other hand, he does have the distinction of being one of two individuals to control the Kyuubi and having a special chakra and EMS. Same thing does for your other two examples.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> It is clear as day that any MS wielding sharingan user can control the kyuubi. Obito did it with one sharingan in 3 tomoe state as a 16 year old. Itachi is portrayed as the best genjutsu user in the manga bar Shisui. (at least in sharingan usage which is the best in verse regarding genjutsu) yet somehow he'll have a problem?
> 
> Sharingan has been proven time and time again, whether it be in 3 tomoe form, or MS to be the Kyuubi's natural nemesis. It's also ridiculous to think he could avoid it considering he was caught twice by uchiha who approached him. Itachi also has hype of long range genjutsu ability. Don't see him losing here.


Obito has Hashirama Senju DNA and had Madara the only other Kyuubi controller as his teacher. If Kyuubi control was simply Genjutsu I'd buy Itachi doing it, but the fact that the control can be taken away by contract seal, cast serious doubt for me that this is all about Genjutsu alone. 

Also assuming Itachi can control it that doesn't give him the win. He still needs to deal with it some how while he controls it, which would depend on Totsuka's sealing capabilities as I said before.


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

The Format said:


> This isn't supported by anything. Itachi's claim to fame his is vast array of genjustu utilizations and tricks. While impressive, they're more neat than overbearing.


No the author has him use genjutsu often because it is one of his most valuable assets, and Itachi is prime in this category. 



> Honestly, I feel almost silly having to defend why Mads > Itachi in genjutsu so I'll be brief. Besides being portrayed as the pinnacle Uchiha, which I have no doubt extends to all facets, Mads has the distinction of of being first and one of the only to control the Kyuubi with his Sharingan.


-He is the pinnacle of Uchiha because he was the first to gain EMS and Rinnengan, which is the pinnacle of their potential. This has just as much to do with his skill as his luck, being born with a skilled brother, taking his eyes, having Hashi to push him etc. 

also MS sasuke was better with Enton than Madara, which means in one are of sharingan sasuke was > him. Madara has nothing to match the raw power of Tsukuyomi, genjutsu wise. Same with Obito. 

-Likewise he is the first to take control of Kyuubi because he seems to be the first with the inclination to do so. Not any uchiha could just do it, but I'd say any elite jounin/low Kage sharingan wielder could do it based on Obito's showing. It isn't like there are a bunch of Uchiha or people in general who have tried anyway. Name me something that has resisted sharingan besides the sharingan...



> Furthermore, being one of Indra's reincarnates and the first to unlock EMS grants him a special chakra and Sharingan which only makes sense to increase the potency of his genjutsu. To suggest that this combined with Mads' extensive experience and life-span advantage ad compared to Itachi doesn't place him above Itachi in genjutsu specifically seems ridiculous to me.


How so? His genjutsu was just enough to put down Ei who got up immediately after being helped by onooki. Itachi's prime genjutsu put a sharingan user himself in the hospital for days, and he purposefully didn't kill him as noted by kakashi himself.

None of what you mentioned as much to do with his genjutsu skill. That is like saying saying sasuke isn't better than madara at Enton use. It is clear Madz had the best Susano (prior to Sasuke), Sasuke had the best Enton, and Itachi had the best genjutsu; manifested by their unique sharingan jutsu. 



> Obito holds the distinction of being the second individual to control the Kyuubi which his Sharingan and has demonstrated a genjustu proficiency so adept that he was able to control a Perfect Jin with a genjutsu that was compared similarly to Koto, the signature MS ability of the Uchiha clan's most powerful genjutsu user.


Obito also holds the distinction of being the second Uchiha with the drive to do so. He also did it without MS. If you are gonna tell me 16 yeard old Obito (the same man who didn't even have 3 tomoe as a chunin) base sharingan > Itachi MS? 



> Tsukuyomi was overcome by Hebi Sasuke. And please don't give me that spiel of Itachi's tanking the fight. Allowing Sasuke to break through it doesn't serve Itachi's purpose in that fight by the least and in fact it makes a great deal of sense that Itachi intended Tsukuyomi to accomplish what he wanted to do and was genuinely surprised that Sasuke was able to avoid being hit by it.


A. Itachi can control the level of depth, and es-capability. This was highlighted when Kakashi noted he held back in his illusion towards himself. He has complete control in that realm. It is canon and manga fact that to break out you need a sharingan, uchiha blood, and better genjutsu skill than the caster. None of which Sasuke had at that point. (which is highlighted when Danzo tells MS Sasuke is genjutsu is shit tier compared to Itachi's.) It is clear that Itachi was just pushing sasuke to keep the act going, make him a better fighter, and push Orochimaru out. Hence why when Sasuke tells Tobi he used Ms therefore he was serious, tobi laughs at him and tells him Itachi would have killed him.




> Which is why we have an abundance of examples to substantiate your point


Yeah I'd say a 16 year old 3 tomoe controlling it justifies my point. Also where are all your examples of sharingan user failing to do so? The manga points out sharingan allows hypnotic control. Which no one has resisted without another sharingan or indirect tactic of not getting caught. Hence why scrub ass beginning of pt. 2 Sasuke made Kurama shit himself.



> Also, again, suppressing =/= controlling.


Bullshit the Kyuubi is the most malevolent thing prior to the juubi. Even Ma an Pa were afraid of it and couldn't fuse with Naruto. Sasuke waltzed into Naruto's Bjuu chamber and surpressed his power, all the while kyuubi making it apparent he was scared of the sharingan. And yes supressing does in it's nature imply some degree of control because it is selectively filetering or controlling it to some degree

From Merriam Webster:

1 :  to *put down by authority or force* :  subdue <suppress a riot>
2 :  to *keep from* public knowledge: as
a :  to *keep* secret
b :  to *stop or prohibit* the publication or revelation of <suppress the test results>
3
a :  to *exclude* from consciousness
b :  to *keep from* giving vent to :  check <suppressed her anger>

Every word I highlighted implies a degree of control.



> I'm willing to believe this but claiming such serves Itachi's purpose in no way and the comment to me came off more as an off-handed Telling Sasuke that Mads (Obito) was the one that assisted him was all Sasuke wanted to know and needed to do the job.


Yes it solidified the fact he was evil and working for Madara. It also made him believe the whole MS thing more because of Madara as the source.

that scan does nothing to disprove my point and only bolsters it. Itachi didn't fight the Yonbi hence why Kisame is bitchin at him. Obviously he wasn't gonna blow his cover (kisame being Tobi's right hand man and telling itachi he would watch him on their first meeting) and have to fight all of akatsuki lol. But he didn't participate in catching them, therefore he didn't actively help take them.



> I will grant you that Kyuubi doesn't seem like the most astute of creatures (why he keeps looking in Sharingan user's eyes when he should be aware of a specific thing happening, who the fuck knows); however the difference between the attacks you listed and Totsuka is that the attacks you listed do their damage on contact while Totsuka takes time to actually seal its target.


Once pierced the main body cannot do anything to escape. You are immediately affected by the Fuinjutsu, it be like trying to escape from the death seal. This is why Nagato couldn't even attempt to absorb or ST it, and Kabuto immediately lost control of Nagato before he was even sealed or said his last words. Likewise Orochimaru could have rebirthed out of his summon (he was struck in the abdomen) yet he just sat and cursed as he begin to meld into liquid. Once pierced you are fucked.



> Once FRS, for instance, makes contract the damage is done. In contrast, against Totsuka the Kyuubi should be able to move and avoid being sealed after initially hit as Totsuka doesn't restrain movement as far as I'm aware and doesn't seal instantly. There is again also the issue of sealing an object with the chakra density that the Kyuubi has.


-Uzumaki's have naturally alot of chakra hence why they were used to house the kyuubi. Kid Naruto had 4X more than kakashi not concerning the kyuubi IIRC. Nagato had enough chakra to use 2 eyes of the sage (which sasuke and Madz pointed out even after gaining sage chakra) which takes a ton of stamina to use. 

Unless kyuubi knows some fuinjutsu I don't see much it can do to stop the Fuinjutsu from sealing it in genjutsu (which it is also weak against)


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> > Obito has Hashirama Senju DNA and had Madara the only other Kyuubi controller as his teacher. If Kyuubi control was simply Genjutsu I'd buy Itachi doing it, but the fact that the control can be taken away by contract seal, cast serious doubt for me that this is all about Genjutsu alone.
> 
> 
> It can be taken away via contract seal because they had one with him. They had one because they both individually needed to summon him in places (obito in Konoha, Madara in VOTE) . Madara essentially thought of it as his pet. Minato knew that he needed to end all contact between the masked man and Kyuubi. So when he broke the contract he broke the chakra controlling kyuubi. The only thing stopping Obito from simply re genjutsui'ing the kyuubi was Minato himself. Also if it was the contract which gave control, then Minato seemingly would have taken over. Instead all we saw was the *sharingan tomoe dissapear from Kyuubi's eyes*. Pretty cut and dry.
> ...


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Turrin said:
> 
> 
> > It can be taken away via contract seal because they had one with him. They had one because they both individually needed to summon him in places (obito in Konoha, Madara in VOTE) . Madara essentially thought of it as his pet. Minato knew that he needed to end all contact between the masked man and Kyuubi. So when he broke the contract he broke the chakra controlling kyuubi. The only thing stopping Obito from simply re genjutsui'ing the kyuubi was Minato himself. Also if it was the contract which gave control, then Minato seemingly would have taken over. Instead all we saw was the *sharingan tomoe dissapear from Kyuubi's eyes*. Pretty cut and dry.
> ...


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't see why breaking the contract would break Obito's Genjutsu.


Obito has to keep control over the hypnosis, Minato's fuinjutsu seals all chakra from Obito to Kyuubi (which is why he couldn't re summon or control it anymore) leading to the kyuubi to revert back to it's feral state. Kishi drawing the eyes reverting back from sharingan hued is more or less definitive proof. Unless you are gonna pull the extreme subjective card in regards to portrayal



> The objective here is to defeat Kyuubi, not utilize it as a weapon. So controlling it just stops it from attacking Itachi for X amount of time where X is equal to how long he can control it. He needs to seal it, otherwise eventually his chakra runs out and he gets decimated by Kurama.


No the objective is to recruit him for akatsuki, and Itachi is to only harm him if he can't genjutsu him. 



> This is also assuming Kurama makes eye-contact willingly, which seems highly unlikely to me given Kurama prior knowledge.


Then he can't see Itachi, and then he gets Ama'd to the face. Or totsuka blitzed. Also Itachi can pretty much force eye contact like Obito did who attacked the kyuubi after Madara did. Also unlike most Uchiha Itachi has hype of genjutsui'ing from long range, and has the crow with Shisui's eye to do so.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Obito has to keep control over the hypnosis, Minato's fuinjutsu seals all chakra from Obito to Kyuubi (which is why he couldn't re summon or control it anymore) leading to the kyuubi to revert back to it's feral state. Kishi drawing the eyes reverting back from sharingan hued is more or less definitive proof. Unless you are gonna pull the extreme subjective card in regards to portrayal


Where in the manga does it say it seals all Obito's chakra in connection to Kyuubi? To me that would be a chakra seal, not a contract seal.

The eyes reverting back tell me nothing more than Contract-Seal stopped Obito's control over Kurama.



> No the objective is to recruit him for akatsuki, and Itachi is to only harm him if he can't genjutsu him.


No where do I see that. He's suppose to capture Kyuubi, but I can not imagine that Itachi can control Kyuubi long enough to march him to the closest Akatsuki base for sealing, which takes several days/nights. Itachi does not have nearly the chakra supply to do something like that even if the chakra it takes to control Kurama isn't that large, which I also can't imagine is the case.



> Then he can't see Itachi, and then he gets Ama'd to the face. Or totsuka blitzed.


He can most likely still smell Itachi and he doesn't need exact locations as he can nuke everything easily. Amaterasu gets countered by chakra roar blowing it off Kurama. Totsuka-blitz again goes back to how Totsuka works. Can it pierce Kurama's extremely durable flesh? Can it seal something with as much chakra as Kurama?



> Also Itachi can pretty much force eye contact like Obito did who attacked the kyuubi after Madara did. Also unlike most Uchiha Itachi has hype of genjutsui'ing from long range, and has the crow with Shisui's eye to do so.


Itachi can not pry the fox's eyes open. Obito caught Kyuubi in a situation where Kyuubi was bound by an Uzamaki seal unable to do anything to defend itself.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2014)

Remsengan said:


> Madara and Obito controlled the Kyubi.  There were other Uchiha in Madara's era that had MS yet he is the only one who was attributed to be able to control Biju.



Who besides Izuna and Madara had MS in their day? I don't recall anyone else.



> Hype isn't feats.
> 
> Sasuke also got ran down by Bee and made no attempt to even control Hachibi.



Genjutsu doesn't work on perfect Jinchuuriki; the Bijuu and the host can break each other out.

Obito had to extract the Kyuubi before he could tame it. Madara was also unable to summon or control the Kyuubi while it was in Naruto.



> People deny it because there's no proof.  Itachi spoke of Madara as some fantasy, but never claimed to mirror his prowess.  That include's controlling Biju



I hope you're aware that there is more to Madara than just controlling Bijuu; incidentally, a teenager who happened to get lucky and awaken MS was able to replicate his Bijuu-controlling feat.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Obito is explicitly the stronger Genjutsu user. He was able to control a Perfect Jinchuriki for YEARS, something Itachi was unable to do (Bee broke his Genjutsu with ease).



1) We don't know how that was done.

2) We don't even know if Obito was the one to do it.

If Obito called in a favor from Shisui or Danzou and had one of them brainwash Yagura with Kotoamatsukami, then that feat doesn't apply to him. In terms of what is actually on-panel and demonstrably within Obito's ability, he's got nothing Itachi hasn't already done better (other than Kyuubi control).



> Kakashi equalling Obito _in the War arc after Kakashi had improved by leaps and bounds_ means Kakashi is superior to Itachi now in pure genjutsu too.





The sad thing is, I know you're not joking.

It's just amazing that someone can be so comfortable with being so obviously wrong.



> Obito also has Hashirama's cells improving him too.



Yet he can't even Genjutsu someone like Konan without injuring and exhausting her to near-death first.



> Remember, his genjutsu prowess was so good he could control Kurama,



That's the feat in question here, so citing it doesn't service the argument at all. Obito's Genjutsu prowess was so not-good that Kakashi could stalemate him. Before you say it again, no, Kakashi is not better than Itachi at Genjutsu; Tsukuyomi and Izanami cement that beyond any shadow of a doubt.



> the only other Uchiha to do so is Madara who also had Indra's chakra backing him up.



Historically, yes, but that means nothing because Itachi never had an opportunity to attempt controlling the Kyuubi; if you're going to rely on this argument, I may as well point out that Itachi was able to put Killer B in a Genjutsu--something Obito was unable to do while fighting him.



> Sorry, Itachi doesn't have the feats for controlling Biju.



He's a better Genjutsu user than Obito. He has stronger Genjutsu than Obito. He has access to a better Doujutsu than what Obito actually used to do it.

If Obito could control the full Kyuubi for an extended period of time with only his normal Sharingan, I don't see how you can go to sleep with a clear conscience after suggesting that half the Kyuubi is going to shrug off MS Itachi's Tsukuyomi.

For the record, I'm pretty sure Itachi's basic Genjutsu would suffice. A teenage Obito, with no particular talent at anything and no special training in Genjutsu, passively gained the power to do it...after having MS for only a few years; Itachi, a veteran MS user and Genjutsu expert, with training, experience, and natural talent in spades, should have no trouble.



> You constantly underestimate and downplay Biju for your favorites.



You obviously didn't get the joke, which wasn't directed at you anyway.

You also have no right to talk, considering your own agenda.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Amaterasu is probably blown away by a Chakra Roar. Shinra Tensei could blow it off, the Chakra Roar should be able to do the same.



Shinra Tensei dispells chakra/Ninjutsu; chakra roar doesn't.

As Temari demonstrated for us, simply blowing off the flames with an air current *does not work*.

This is also a good point:



I Am Anarchy said:


> Shinra Tensei and Chakra Roar don't have the same properties.  Shinra Tensei is an AoE technique that inflicts the entire area around Nagato.  Kyuubi can't fire a chakra roar out of his back, or the top of his head, or his eye.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its still hyperbole. Sealing Nagato (who let it happen)



Nagato didn't really have a choice by the time he regained his senses.



> and Orochimaru does NOT mean it can seal Kurama.



There's no foreseeable reason why the sword would be unable to seal the Kyuubi. You would basically have to arbitrarily assume that it is incapable of doing it.



> Especially since Itachi lacks the chakra for such a feat.



No one ever said that, except you. You're making an assumption.


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2014)

Itachi wins this due to Amaterasu,,,,
It sets kyuubi on fire,,,, and unlike Hachibi,,, it cant afford to extract its limbs,,,,
Seeing how sasuke used  his 3T to get inside narutos kyuubi,,,, it is highly possible that itachi can control the kyuubi through his MS,,,,  and with tsukuyomi,,,, itachi has a good shot in subduing the kyuubi


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2014)

Why are people speaking of the Totsuka Sword as if it's a solid method of victory here? 

Its greatest feat is cutting Kimimaro's bones, which is decent but not necessarily impressive. Kurama, at half his power and size, swallowed Naruto's Senpō: Raseshuriken with only singed fur to show for it. Unless Totsuka has cutting power _greater_ than that of FRS, which is essentially a giant shredder, then it won't break skin. Totsuka's capabilities are currently unclear, so there isn't enough evidence to determine if the sword would even get have _chance_ to seal him in the first place.

If it did, hypothetically, it would fail on the full fox:



Seemed pretty clear to me.


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## Jagger (Jun 12, 2014)

Remsengan said:


> Ninjutsu gets Roar'd away.  Genjutsu is a wash unless Itachi has Shinsui's eye.  I don't see Izanami working on most humans, let alone demons.  Even so, there's no way Itachi is going to prep it, and keep Susano'o up, and keep Kurama busy at the same time.
> 
> Totsuka is up for debate.  There's not enough info to say for sure but I don't think it could work.  Otherwise Itachi would have just ruined Madara by sealing a Biju forever in the gourd.


You're wrong regarding Itachi's genjutsu skills not being powerful enough to subdue the Kyuubi.

Neither Obito nor Madara posessed Shisui's eye, yet, they effortlessly controlled him like some kind of puppet and none of them was specially known or praised for their genjutsu skills unlike the Uchiha that Kishimoto, at several points, lets us knew he was one of the best in that field.

Further evidence is found in the DB and Itachi's own words. Inb4Itachiknows nothing. He knew enough and, so far, he's been right.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 12, 2014)

Itachi dies horribly, one uncharged BB, tail swipe, or a paw or two is enough to end this


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## Ersa (Jun 12, 2014)

alex payne said:


> MS controls Kyubi
> Itachi got MS mastered
> Itachi got mad genjutsu hype
> Sasuke with 3-tomoe suppressed Kyubi's leak inside Naruto
> ...


This.

It's laughable how some fans try to deny the manga to order to suit their bias.

It's pretty clear a mastered MS can control the Kyuubi, ask the author here. *[1] []
*

Obito did it with 3 tomoe Sharingan when he was 14, I don't see how a supposed hyped genjutsu master who Shikaku believed to be capable of controlling a large portion of the Alliance can't do it with a fucking Mangekyo.


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> > Where in the manga does it say it seals all Obito's chakra in connection to Kyuubi? To me that would be a chakra seal, not a contract seal.
> 
> 
> A fuinjutsu seals. A summoning contract is paved through blood and chakra. Minato sealed the chakra connection between them when he sealed the contract between them rupturing Obito's control over him. Simple very simple. By your logic Itachi should have needed a contract with Kabuto to completely make him end ET.
> ...


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Why are people speaking of the Totsuka Sword as if it's a solid method of victory here?
> 
> Its greatest feat is cutting Kimimaro's bones, which is decent but not necessarily impressive. Kurama, at half his power and size, swallowed Naruto's Senpō: Raseshuriken with only singed fur to show for it. Unless Totsuka has cutting power _greater_ than that of FRS, which is essentially a giant shredder, then it won't break skin. Totsuka's capabilities are currently unclear, so there isn't enough evidence to determine if the sword would even get have _chance_ to seal him in the first place.
> 
> ...



"I'll."

As in, it's impossible *for Minato*.

The full Kyuubi can indeed be sealed; it was done once with Mito and again with Kushina, and Madara did it again with both halves.

The Juubi makes the Kyuubi look insignificant, and it's been sealed, too. Multiple times.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If it did, hypothetically, it would fail on the full fox:
> 
> 
> 
> Seemed pretty clear to me.


Not to give more fuel to the Totsuka-no-limits fire, but i'm 100% certain Minato was talking within the context of his own abilities. He couldn't seal it all inside himself. As Mito did indeed seal Kurama fully inside herself and Kushina also talks about being able to seal it inside herself. Additionally ether Mito or someone else sealed Kurama inside Kushina originally. Why Minato couldn't seal the whole thing inside him is anyone's guess, though my person belief is his body wouldn't have been able to withstand the full might of Kurama's chakra and Kurama would have escaped, before the death god could consume them both. This may indeed be the same issue with Totsuka Sword or it might not be. Unfortunately the limits of Totsuka are untested.


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## Ashi (Jun 12, 2014)

Can Itachi use two Mangekyou techniques at once?

Cause if he wants to Amaterasu Nine tails he'll vulnerable for a second since he has to focus the chakra in his eye

If wants to camp in susanoo then Nine tails can obliterate Itachi with TBB


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 12, 2014)

Amaterasu sure as hell isn't killing Kyuubi or even bothering it all that much for a long time, plenty of time to nuke Itachi


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## Ashi (Jun 12, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Amaterasu sure as hell isn't killing Kyuubi or even bothering it all that much for a long time, plenty of time to nuke Itachi



Does Nine Tails have any feats resisting heat?


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 12, 2014)

Itachi uses Kotoamatsukami to TnJ the Kyuubi. GG


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 12, 2014)

He can tank his own BB, that way more energy than some "hot as the sun" fire. It didn't even burn of A's arm right away who can't deal with anything comparable to what the Kyuubi has, all it has to do is use BB in Itachi's general direction and he's dead


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## Kazekage94 (Jun 12, 2014)

People actually believe Itachi can beat the 9 tails. TBB GG Also if Kurama roars Itachi is dead


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Turrin said:
> 
> 
> > A fuinjutsu seals. A summoning contract is paved through blood and chakra. Minato sealed the chakra connection between them when he sealed the contract between them rupturing Obito's control over him. Simple very simple. By your logic Itachi should have needed a contract with Kabuto to completely make him end ET.
> ...


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Not to give more fuel to the Totsuka-no-limits fire, but i'm 100% certain Minato was talking within the context of his own abilities.



Minato says that he'll only seal away half of it because it's physically impossible to seal away such a large volume of power. To me, that doesn't sound like he's talking about his own limitations...

Minato made that comment with what I would say is pretty detailed knowledge on Kurama's past. He knows that it's been sealed in its entirety before, so I'm guessing that jinchūriki are an exception, probably because the seal isn't _permanent. _


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Can Itachi use two Mangekyou techniques at once?
> 
> Cause if he wants to Amaterasu Nine tails he'll vulnerable for a second since he has to focus the chakra in his eye



Sasuke used Amaterasu while inside of Susano'o, when fighting Danzou. Itachi should be able to do it; he has enough chakra to perform both.



> If wants to camp in susanoo then Nine tails can obliterate Itachi with TBB



Why wouldn't he just smack its face away before it launches the Bijuudama? Gamabunta did; Itachi's Susano'o manhandled a much bigger and stronger animal than Bunta.

One chakra fist to the face, that glass-jawed hairy mothafucka is going on its ass with its Bijuudama.



Kazekage94 said:


> Also if Kurama roars Itachi is dead



Chakra roar gets fucking wanked like crazy (mostly by the same handful of stubborn people). It couldn't even hurt base Naruto.



Rocky said:


> Minato says that he'll only seal away half of it because it's physically impossible to seal away such a large volume of power. To me, that doesn't sound like he's talking about his own limitations...
> 
> Minato made that comment with what I would say is pretty detailed knowledge on Kurama's past. He knows that it's been sealed in its entirety before, so I'm guessing that jinchūriki are an exception, probably because the seal isn't _permanent. _



Minato is obviously talking about his own limitations, as he is describing a limit to what he is going to attempt to do.

The very existence of Jinchuuriki like Mito and Kushina, let alone Hagoromo and Madara and Obito, is a gaping hole in the interpretation that Minato's statement is a general rule.

Even if that's what he meant, it's clearly incorrect--_the full Kyuubi has been sealed before_.


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## Dr. White (Jun 12, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> > Can Itachi use two Mangekyou techniques at once?
> >
> > Cause if he wants to Amaterasu Nine tails he'll vulnerable for a second since he has to focus the chakra in his eye
> 
> ...


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> "I'll."
> 
> As in, it's impossible *for Minato*.



Minato did not say "I can only seal away half," or "it's impossible _*for me*_ to seal it all," he said "I'm only going to seal half because it's impossible to seal it all."

The context is ambiguous at best, but to me, Minato doesn't sound like he's talking about himself.



> The Juubi makes the Kyuubi look insignificant, and it's been sealed, too. Multiple times.



Which supports my point. Dying, sliced-in-half Obito can seal the entire Ten Tails, which has "immeasurable" chakra, with an unnamed technique, but Minato, who had trained specifically in fūinjutsu, can't even do away with the Nine Tails using the legendary Reaper Death Seal, something so powerful it requires the caster's life as a cost?

Seems legit.



> Even if that's what he meant, it's clearly incorrect--the full Kyuubi has been sealed before.



_Unless_ there is a difference between temporary and permanent seals. The fox had been sealed before, but it had never been sealed _away._


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Minato says that he'll only seal away half of it because it's physically impossible to seal away such a large volume of power. To me, that doesn't sound like he's talking about his own limitations...
> 
> Minato made that comment with what I would say is pretty detailed knowledge on Kurama's past. He knows that it's been sealed in its entirety before, so I'm guessing that jinchūriki are an exception, probably because the seal isn't _permanent. _


Minato makes no such distinction when talking about sealing the beast away. However the context is always about what he's going to do, hence it being more natural to assume it's his abilities that he's speaking towards or what he's capable of.

Additionally Minato cites physicality. It makes sense that Minato's body could not physically withstand sealing all of Kurama inside of him, but an extremely powerful Uzamaki's body (or Obito/Madara who had Hashirama Senju's DNA) could.


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## Jagger (Jun 12, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Can Itachi use two Mangekyou techniques at once?
> 
> Cause if he wants to Amaterasu Nine tails he'll vulnerable for a second since he has to focus the chakra in his eye
> 
> If wants to camp in susanoo then Nine tails can obliterate Itachi with TBB


I don't see why he can't. Itachi is a good state of health should be capable of performing two MS techniques at the same time, it's just too chakra-taxting for him to use it not to mention it'd be an over-abuse of his eyes. Itachi is not Sasuke, he's aware of his limits.

I don't see why Itachi can't use common sense and put the Kyuubi under his genjutsu rather than actually facing the beast through brute force.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 12, 2014)

Itachi could just throw flaming shuriken in the Kyuubi's eyes.

Even if its eyeballs are somehow magically durable enough to tank what the Hachibi's tough flesh could not, I'm sure having red-hot sharp pieces of metal in its eyes would hurt a whole fucking lot and compromise its performance.

What kind of heat does it even take to light metal on fire without an accelerant? Imagine that heat pressed against your eyeballs...by sharp little pieces of metal.

Yeah, the Kyuubi would not be enjoying that.


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## Kazekage94 (Jun 12, 2014)

@Niku

Itachi also gets fucking wanked like crazy and oh look by the same stubborn people. A KN1 roar blew K abuto off his feet. You people really think someone as weak as Itachi can beat Kurama? That's sad. We are really having this argument. I'm pretty sure it took Madara a long time to find out how to control the 9 tails.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Minato did not say "I can only seal away half," or "it's impossible _*for me*_ to seal it all," he said "I'm only going to seal half because it's impossible to seal it all."
> 
> The context is ambiguous at best, but to me, Minato doesn't sound like he's talking about himself.



1) Minato is obviously talking about himself, as the statement doesn't apply in any other context.

2) Outside of the Minato context, the statement is wrong. Point-blank.



> Which supports my point. Dying, sliced-in-half Obito can seal the entire Ten Tails, which has "immeasurable" chakra, with an unnamed technique, but Minato can't even do away with the Nine Tails with the legendary Reaper Death Seal, something so powerful it requires the caster's life as a cost?
> 
> Seems legit.



This whole arc has been retarded. Why we even needed to have a Juubi is beyond me; the thing is fucking hideous, both physically and conceptually.



> _Unless_ there is a difference between temporary and permanent seals.



Or Kishi just doesn't care.


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## Ersa (Jun 13, 2014)

So what is preventing Itachi from subjugating the Kyuubi like 14 year old 3 tomoe Obito did?

Could it be reader bias or lack of reading comprehension? Or maybe people here know more about the manga then Kishimoto does.


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## Fiiction (Jun 13, 2014)

Itachi can easily subdue kurama, idk why that's even up for discussion. The main question is does he have the reserves to do so while coming up with a way to destroy it? 

Amaterasu is a large target's worst nightmare. The fire will keep spreading like it did against Nagato's dog. I'm not mentioning the hachibi feat because that came from a superior  amaterasu user.

How will totsuka work on a bijuu? Seriously, do bijuu even have souls? Plus, kurama was able to be split in two and work as sperate entities.

For kurama, he can spam at least 11 TBB nearly instantly.

He has a chakra roar that can easily disrupt any feints that itachi comes up with, and from 100% kurama, I believe that it can be spammed.

It can go either way, I give itachi the edge tho.


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## ueharakk (Jun 13, 2014)

yeah rocky, if the juubi can be sealed into people, Minato's statement can't be taken at its literal face value unless the 100% Kyuubi somehow has more chakra than the juubi. 

Plus Mito and Kushina had the kyuubi sealed in them too....


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## Jagger (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi could just throw flaming shuriken in the Kyuubi's eyes.
> 
> Even if its eyeballs are somehow magically durable enough to tank what the *Hachibi's tough flesh could not*, I'm sure having red-hot sharp pieces of metal in its eyes would hurt a whole fucking lot and compromise its performance.
> 
> ...


I'm not necessarily arguing against your point, but was it ever said that its skin is far more resistant than normal?

Because, so far, it has been abused by pretty much every shinobi that ever faced the beast. But I agree the Kyuubi's eyes shouldn't be capable of shrugging off a sharp kunai. Just because the peel around its body is tough doesn't mean every single part of his body is as strong.



Kazekage94 said:


> @Niku
> 
> Itachi also gets fucking wanked like crazy and oh look by the same stubborn people. A KN1 roar blew K abuto off his feet. You people really think someone as weak as Itachi can beat Kurama? That's sad. We are really having this argument. I'm pretty sure it took Madara a long time to find out how to control the 9 tails.


That's just a baseless assumption.

It took Sasuke no longer than a few minutes to know how to utilize Susano'O or Amaterasu.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> @Niku
> 
> Itachi also gets fucking wanked like crazy and oh look by the same stubborn people. A KN1 roar blew K abuto off his feet.



Kabuto was within a few meters of Naruto.

Base Kabuto is also kind of a pussy.



> You people really think someone as weak as Itachi can beat Kurama? That's sad.



Someone as weak as Obito did.

Minato did, at the cost of his own life.

Sage Naruto humiliated it for a period of time.

I'm not seeing the problem, here.



> We are really having this argument. I'm pretty sure it took Madara a long time to find out how to control the 9 tails.



We don't exactly have any background on that, but he sure didn't seem to have any difficulty. Obito just ripped the damn thing out of Kushina's vag and said "You're my bitch now."


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> @Niku
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I'm not necessarily arguing against your point, but was it ever said that its skin is far more resistant than normal?
> 
> Because, so far, it has been abused by pretty much every shinobi that ever faced the beast. But I agree the Kyuubi's eyes shouldn't be capable of shrugging off a sharp kunai. Just because the peel around its body is tough doesn't mean every single part of his body is as strong.



The Hachibi withstood its own Bijuudama and a standard Juubidama blowing up inside of the Juubi. It also briefly held off a mega-sized Juubidama before Minato warped that away.

Its skin withstood a lava dip, and a strong alkaline solution as well...

The fact that it withstood lava should tell you something about how hot Itachi's Katon must be, to inflict pain on its body.

I'm sure there are other feats, but these are some of the most noteworthy off the top of my head and I think they're sufficient to make my point.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> 1) Minato is obviously talking about himself, as the statement doesn't apply in any other context.
> 
> 2) Outside of the Minato context, the statement is wrong. Point-blank.



1.) He is not "obviously" speaking about his own limitations. He said that he wouldn't seal away the entire thing, partly because the entire thing is impossible to seal away. If he had said impossible "FOR ME," you would be correct. However he didn't, so the context is, as I said, ambiguous at best.

2.) Unless there is a difference between temporary and permanent seals. 

....and there probably is, as it makes no sense for_ Minato_ of all people to be incapable of sealing it.



> This whole arc has been retarded. Why we even needed to have a Juubi is beyond me; the thing is fucking hideous, both physically and conceptually.



Which is irrelevant to what I said.



> Or Kishi just doesn't care.



Excuses. :ignoramus


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> 1.) He is not "obviously" speaking about his own limitations. He said that he wouldn't seal away the entire thing, partly because the entire thing is impossible to seal away. If he had said impossible "FOR ME," you would be correct. However he didn't, so the context is, as I said, ambiguous at best.
> 
> 2.) Unless there is a difference between temporary and permanent seals.



1) He is obviously speaking about his own limitations; there is no one else there to seal the fox for him, and he just said that's what he planned to do. Maybe a fluent Japanese speaker could elucidate this discussion, as it seems to be a purely semantic one.

2) By all rights, the seals on Mito and Kushina and the Rikudou Sennin were probably intended to be "permanent," which in actuality probably means "life-long" (a temporary yet long-lasting solution). I don't know that there IS a genuinely permanent seal other than Shiki Fujin and the Totsuka Blade's Fuinjutsu--however, if that's the case, then it still means Minato was only talking about his own limitations. 



> ....and there probably is, as it makes no sense for_ Minato_ of all people to be incapable of sealing it.



Because he doesn't have the chakra and he's using a crude tool for the job.



> Which is irrelevant to what I said.



Everything you said can be explained with the first six words in my reply to it.



> Excuses. :ignoramus



Kishi has contradicted his own in-world logic so many times, there's really no other coherent explanation.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The Hachibi withstood its own Bijuudama and a standard Juubidama blowing up inside of the Juubi. It also briefly held off a mega-sized Juubidama before Minato warped that away.
> 
> Its skin withstood a lava dip, and a strong alkaline solution as well...
> 
> ...


Itachi managed to inflict minor burns on a partially transformed hand that Killer Bee made. It doesn't mean his kunai or shuriken, flaming or not, could hurt Gyuki when fully formed. Not to mention nothing in his arsenal can hurt Kurama anyway.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> He is obviously speaking about his own limitations; there is no one else there to seal the fox for him, and he just said that's what he planned to do. Maybe a fluent Japanese speaker could elucidate this discussion, as it seems to be a purely semantic one.



Minato explained that he planned to seal away half of Kurama. His _reasoning _for sealing away half is because it's impossible to seal it _all_ away.

Since there is no "for me" anywhere it that statement, why should we not just take it as is– impossible.



> 2) By all rights, the seals on Mito and Kushina and the Rikudou Sennin were probably intended to be "permanent," which in actuality probably means "life-long" (a temporary yet long-lasting solution). I don't know that there IS a genuinely permanent seal other than Shiki Fujin and the Totsuka Blade's Fuinjutsu--however, if that's the case, then it still means Minato was only talking about his own limitations.



Temporary yet long-lasting ≠ permanent. 

The latter part of this doesn't make sense now that you've edited in Totsuka; Minato doesn't have that sealing technique.



> Because he doesn't have the chakra and he's using a crude tool for the job.



And then Obito, who was practically dead, sealed an entity with incalculable power using something so irrelevant the author didn't even bother giving it a _name. _

Not buying it.



> Everything you said can be explained with the first six words in my reply to it.



"Jubi is dumb" isn't an explanation.



> Kishi has contradicted his own in-world logic so many times, there's really no other coherent explanation.



There being a difference between temporary and permanent seals _is_ a coherent explanation.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi managed to inflict minor burns on a partially transformed hand that Killer Bee made. It doesn't mean his kunai or shuriken, flaming or not, could hurt Gyuki when fully formed.



Unless I missed something, partial transformations are still pieces of the Bijuu's true form. That's why they...uh...look exactly the same, just on a smaller scale. A partial transformation of the Hachibi's hand was able to stop and contain the Kyuubi's Bijuudama.



> Not to mention nothing in his arsenal can hurt Kurama anyway.



You keep saying this, despite the fact that Amaterasu destroyed the Hachibi's body completely, while FRS and Naruto's COR barrage were causing the Kyuubi some very visible discomfort.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Unless I missed something, partial transformations are still pieces of the Bijuu's true form. That's why they...uh...look exactly the same, just on a smaller scale.


Partial Transformations are weaker than full transformations. Far weaker given the feats.

Nikushimi, you routinely downplay any Biju Durability feat to claim any ninja can injure them. Even Kurama. You have so little respect for them that you believe _anyone and anything can hurt them_. The moment Gyuki tanked his own Bijudama showed that Amaterasu and everything else in Itachi's arsenal is worthless against a fully transformed Biju.


> You keep saying this, despite the fact that Amaterasu destroyed the Hachibi's body completely, while FRS and Naruto's COR barrage were causing the Kyuubi some very visible discomfort.


Yeah, kind of ignore the fact that _Bee was faking the entire time there_ so he could go on vacation. He was making the act look good. 

FRS and ChoOdama RasenTargen all together are far stronger than Amaterasu. And ultimately: _KURAMA SHRUGGED IT OFF._

From Amaterasu's feats, it doesn't even scorch Kurama's fur. He can blow away it and dispel it with a chakra roar just like he did to Naruto's Senpo: Cho Odama Rasengan.


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

Rocky....it was obviously about Minato's limitations. As soon as he got 50% into his body he went numb and commented on it. minato was talking from his concept hence how he referred to it as conceptually impossible. It obviously isn't if it could be sealed into Jinchuriki and the Gedo statue both which have fixed material limitations. It was stated Uzumaki's were extremely durable and the gedo is an artifact from the Sage. The fact that the Juubi (which the Kyuubi admitted chakra inferiority) was referred to as a small planet goes to show you that such a thing can exist in one place. The totsuka bottole is a sacred ethereal weapon, what is so hard for you to take at face value? Why is uzumaki body > Sacred weapon?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'll admit Minato is wrong if you admit I'm right.



You're both wrong. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Partial Transformations are weaker than full transformations. Far weaker given the feats.



A partial transformation of the Hachibi's hand was able to stop and contain the Kyuubi's Bijuudama. Another partial transformation of the Hachibi's hand was able to stop the Raikage's attempted death blow on KCM Naruto; the same Raikage casually amputated the full Hachibi's horn.

I don't know what "feats" you're speaking of, but these feats appear to contradict your claim.



> Nikushimi, you routinely downplay any Biju Durability feat to claim any ninja can injure them. Even Kurama.



Because any decent ninja *can* hurt them; we've seen this routinely.

More than half of the damn things were captured by Akatsuki. The 3rd Raikage fought the Hachibi to a draw. Minato sealed the Kyuubi at the cost of his life. Deidara casually beat the Sanbi with Tobi's restrained support. Kisame beat the Yonbi without Itachi's direct intervention. The 4th amputated the Hachibi's horn; Minato nearly severed a tentacle with his kunai; Itachi embedded flaming shuriken in its hand. The V2 Edo Jinchuuriki inflicted damage on the Hachibi with their attacks, too. Sage Naruto vs. the Kyuubi doesn't even need to be mentioned again. One shinobi with the ability to take down a Bijuu is rare, but one with the ability to *harm* a Bijuu certainly is not. Why you're still so bent on denying that is beyond my understanding; the Bijuu are still impossible to defeat for the vast majority of shinobi, even if they can be harmed.

The Kyuubi requires a lot more firepower to damage than the others, but it can be damaged.



> You have so little respect for them that you believe anyone and anything can hurt them.



Now you're just whining. Save it; I have no sympathy for you.



> The moment Gyuki tanked his own Bijudama showed that Amaterasu and everything else in Itachi's arsenal is worthless against a fully transformed Biju.



Except the Hachibi was destroyed by Amaterasu, so you're shamelessly cherrypicking feats here.



> Yeah, kind of ignore the fact that _Bee was faking the entire time there_ so he could go on vacation. He was making the act look good.



You can't fake being burned-up; B wasn't even attached to that Hachibi body anymore.



> FRS and ChoOdama RasenTargen all together are far stronger than Amaterasu.



They're not even as strong as Bijuudama, which the Hachibi withstood; it couldn't handle Amaterasu. So, again, you're wrong.



> And ultimately: _KURAMA SHRUGGED IT OFF._



Not without visible pain and injury, which you're saying the much-stronger Amaterasu will utterly fail to inflict (despite not providing any evidence or reason why you believe that to be the case).



> From Amaterasu's feats, it doesn't even scorch Kurama's fur.



Kinkaku and Ginkaku actually ate the Kyuubi's flesh; what the fuck are you even drawing from to make such a preposterous claim as this? You harp about feats when there aren't any, yet what feats does the Kyuubi's fur have?



> He can blow away it and dispel it with a chakra roar just like he did to Naruto's Senpo: Cho Odama Rasengan.



Amaterasu can't be extinguished with an air current; notice how even the Juubi shed its skin to get that shit off, instead of trying to blow it out.

Also, the Kyuubi can't roar through its chest or face or back or anywhere else except its mouth, so good luck repelling the rest of Amaterasu that isn't around that area.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Rocky....it was obviously about Minato's limitations. As soon as he got 50% into his body he went numb and commented on it.



Yes, "numb."

He then jumped in front of Kurama's attack, summoned, and sealed the other half of the beast. 

I find it amusing that people actually think that Minato lacked the chakra to seal the entire thing when he's the one who sealed both halves.. 



> minato was talking from his concept hence how he referred to it as conceptually impossible.



He never said "conceptually" in the official translation. 



> Why is uzumaki body > Sacred weapon?



It has nothing to do with the vessel. Seals used on jins are temporary and easy to remove. I merely think that has something to do with all of this.

If you think that Minato could only manage to seal half of the fox with Shiki Fuin, then how did he seal the other half while his body was numb and he had been impaled? If half was his *max* in a decent state with a legendary and forbidden sealing technique, then how did he manage half in a considerably worse state with a worse sealing technique?


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## StickaStick (Jun 13, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No the author has him use genjutsu often because it is one of his most valuable assets, and Itachi is prime in this category.


Prime but not the best and not better than Mads or Obito [or Shisui]



> -He is the pinnacle of Uchiha because he was the first to gain EMS and Rinnengan, which is the pinnacle of their potential. This has just as much to do with his skill as his luck, being born with a skilled brother, taking his eyes, having Hashi to push him etc.


Not even going to bother arguing this point, other than to save it's largely irrelevant. Itachi lucked out being born a Uchiha, etc etc.



> also MS sasuke was better with Enton than Madara, which means in one are of sharingan sasuke was > him. Madara has nothing to match the raw power of Tsukuyomi, genjutsu wise. Same with Obito.


Hebi Sasuke broke out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi. See down below.



> -Likewise he is the first to take control of Kyuubi because he seems to be the first with the inclination to do so.


I find this incredibly hard to believe given the nature of the Uchiha.



> Not any uchiha could just do it, but I'd say any elite jounin/low Kage sharingan wielder could do it based on Obito's showing.


All I'll say is Obito has one thing others don't, Mads teachings. Again, it's no coincidence that the only two to accomplish the feat are Mads and his pupil. Why is this fact being ignored?



> It isn't like there are a bunch of Uchiha or people in general who have tried anyway. Name me something that has resisted sharingan besides the sharingan...


So because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not possible? I will argue this then and assert that there have been many Tsukuyomi users, we just haven't been shown them on panel using it 



> *How so? His genjutsu was just enough to put down Ei who got up immediately after being helped by onooki.* Itachi's prime genjutsu put a sharingan user himself in the hospital for days, and he purposefully didn't kill him as noted by kakashi himself.


I don't recall the bolded so if you could post a scan so I could read it in context that would help. You did mention though that Onooki helped him?

That was Part I Kakashi who put himself into the hospital with moderate Sharingan use. 



> None of what you mentioned as much to do with his genjutsu skill. That is like saying saying sasuke isn't better than madara at Enton use. It is clear Madz had the best Susano (prior to Sasuke), Sasuke had the best Enton, and Itachi had the best genjutsu; manifested by their unique sharingan jutsu.


Except it does. EMS and Indra's chakra open doors that aren't available to Itachi. Anyway, we're talking about who's superior in their genjutsu use, not necessarily who's more "skillful". At the end of the day results are what matters and Mads has more means at his disposal to be successful, adding a massive experience gap between the two to the things already mentioned.



> Obito also holds the distinction of being the second Uchiha with the drive to do so. He also did it without MS. If you are gonna tell me 16 yeard old Obito (the same man who didn't even have 3 tomoe as a chunin) base sharingan > Itachi MS?


Let's see if an analogy will help here. The goal is to unlock a very complied and indicate lock. One who's attempting it is a child and other is a master lock-breaker. However, the child is given the passcode to the lock while the master lock-breaker is given no such information. This is similar to what's going on her. The Sharingan grants the means of controlling the Kyuubi but the secret to doing so has to be learned. No matter how intricately gifted that master lock-breaker might be chances are he will lever be able to figure out the code and thus break the lock. This isn't speaking towards Obito's skill or general proficiency using genjutsu mind you, but merely an illustration to show why I don't believe Itachi can control the Kyuubi just by wielding a Sharingan. 



> A. Itachi can control the level of depth, and es-capability. This was highlighted when Kakashi noted he held back in his illusion towards himself. He has complete control in that realm.* It is canon and manga fact that to break out you need a sharingan, uchiha blood,* and better genjutsu skill than the caster. None of which Sasuke had at that point. (which is highlighted when Danzo tells MS Sasuke is genjutsu is shit tier compared to Itachi's.) It is clear that Itachi was just pushing sasuke to keep the act going, make him a better fighter, and push Orochimaru out. Hence why when Sasuke tells Tobi he used Ms therefore he was serious, tobi laughs at him and tells him Itachi would have killed him.


Could you provide a scan for the bolded. Don't recall this being stated anywhere. 

I don't see why it's hard to fathom that Sasuke would be more skilled than Itachi at that point in genjutsu. Does he have access to a powerful genjutsu such as Tsukuyomi? No. But he's shown himself as more than adept. IMO ppl are being overswayed by one very potent genjutsu that Itachi's possesses and find it hard to believe that someone could best him in this area. Sasuke better utilized his 3-tomoe against Itachi's MS--which is what BZ tells us. I also don't see how allowing Sauske to avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi helps his cause at all. Anything he did afterwards he could have done while Sasuke was incapacitated.



> Yeah I'd say a 16 year old 3 tomoe controlling it justifies my point. Also where are all your examples of sharingan user failing to do so? The manga points out sharingan allows hypnotic control. Which no one has resisted without another sharingan or indirect tactic of not getting caught. Hence why scrub ass beginning of pt. 2 Sasuke made Kurama shit himself.


You're asserting that any Sharingan user worth their salt can control the Kyuubi and you're asking me for proof to the contrary?  Come on man.



> Bullshit the Kyuubi is the most malevolent thing prior to the juubi. Even Ma an Pa were afraid of it and couldn't fuse with Naruto. Sasuke waltzed into Naruto's Bjuu chamber and surpressed his power, all the while kyuubi making it apparent he was scared of the sharingan. And yes supressing does in it's nature imply some degree of control because it is selectively filetering or controlling it to some degree


Suppressed, not controlled. It's also worth noting that Karuma (Kishi) made sure to note how Sasuke's essence reminded him of Mads'.



> From Merriam Webster:
> 
> 1 :  to *put down by authority or force* :  subdue <suppress a riot>
> 2 :  to *keep from* public knowledge: as
> ...


Degree being the operative word. Being able to suppress does not imply you can control where the reverse may be true.



> Yes it solidified the fact he was evil and working for Madara. It also made him believe the whole MS thing more because of Madara as the source.


Itachi at that time needed to convince Sasuke that we was evil? 

Telling Sasuke Mads' was the one that helped would have been enough. Telling him Mads' backstory is icing on the cake. Telling him that he was his mentor seems unnecessary but whatever. 



> that scan does nothing to disprove my point and only bolsters it. Itachi didn't fight the Yonbi hence why Kisame is bitchin at him. Obviously he wasn't gonna blow his cover (kisame being Tobi's right hand man and telling itachi he would watch him on their first meeting) and have to fight all of akatsuki lol. But he didn't participate in catching them, therefore he didn't actively help take them.


lol Kisame isn't bitching as Itachi at all. Kisame actually seems quite calm and jovial. 

Itachi didn't participate because Kisame was deemed more suitable for the job. That wouldn't have been the case if Itachi was capable of the ability that you, among others, are asserting he is capable of. This is pretty irrelevant anyway, as Itachi's lack of motive to control (so to capture) bijuus isn't proof in any manner towards his ability to do so.



> Once pierced the main body cannot do anything to escape. You are immediately affected by the Fuinjutsu, it be like trying to escape from the death seal. This is why Nagato couldn't even attempt to absorb or ST it, and Kabuto immediately lost control of Nagato before he was even sealed or said his last words. Likewise Orochimaru could have rebirthed out of his summon (he was struck in the abdomen) yet he just sat and cursed as he begin to meld into liquid. Once pierced you are fucked.


Oro was still able to move every so slightly after being hit with Shiki Fūjin showing that mobility is still possible. In fact, after Nagato is sealed Kabuto immediately comments on Nagato's lack of mobility.



> -Uzumaki's have naturally alot of chakra hence why they were used to house the kyuubi. Kid Naruto had 4X more than kakashi not concerning the kyuubi IIRC. Nagato had enough chakra to use 2 eyes of the sage (which sasuke and Madz pointed out even after gaining sage chakra) which takes a ton of stamina to use.


Uzumaki were used to house the Kyuubi because of their strong life force. The abundance of chakra they possess is probably related but ultimately distinct from that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> A partial transformation of the Hachibi's hand was able to stop and contain the Kyuubi's Bijuudama. Another partial transformation of the Hachibi's hand was able to stop the Raikage's attempted death blow on KCM Naruto; the same Raikage casually amputated the full Hachibi's horn.
> 
> I don't know what "feats" you're speaking of, but these feats appear to contradict your claim.


Given that arm was _full size_, that was a fully transformed arm .Not a partially transformed one. And here's the fucking crux of your downplaying argument: "A IS ABLE TO SEVER GYUKI'S HORN! HE'S STRONGER THAN THE BIJUDAMA! ANYONE CAN DAMAGE A BIJU, SEE, SEE, SEE?! ITACHI CAN BLIND ANY BIJU WITH HIS PUNY SHURIKEN AND KUNAI, HE DOESN'T NEED TO PUT FLAMES ON IT!"

You love using low end durability feats for Biju, ignoring and downplaying their high end, and with Kurama, the strongest of the nine you honestly, HONESTLY believe anyone and anything can damage him so you can justify Itachi or any other character whose far below Biju Level can win.


> You can't fake being burned-up; B wasn't even attached to that Hachibi body anymore.


His clone was putting on an act. He switched with an Octopus Leg Clone...which means Gyuki's body wasn't even burning up in the first place.




> They're not even as strong as Bijuudama, which the Hachibi withstood; it couldn't handle Amaterasu. So, again, you're wrong.


Futon: Rasenshuriken, especially empowered by Senjutsu, is millions of tiny needles on top of an explosion. Cho Odama Rasengan can hollow out mountains. 

Amaterasu never even burned the real Gyuki anyway, it was a clone putting on an act for Sasuke. Do you seriously ignore the fact Bee was playing them for a fool?




> Not without visible pain and injury, which you're saying the much-stronger Amaterasu will utterly fail to inflict (despite not providing any evidence or reason why you believe that to be the case).


Since those attacks are DIRECT Damage, And what injuries, singed fur? Kurama was mostly surprised at how strong Naruto's become, NOT on any pain. And finally, Amaterasu is _cumulative damage_, if its immediately dispelled or thrown off it won't cause injury.




> Kinkaku and Ginkaku actually ate the Kyuubi's flesh; what the fuck are you even drawing from to make such a preposterous claim as this? You harp about feats when there aren't any, yet what feats does the Kyuubi's fur have?


They ate _from Kurama's insides._ Forgot they were swallowed whole? And Kurama's durability:

Tanks V1 Juubi Beam
Tanks Three Futon Rasenshurikens
Tanks 27 Cho Odama Rasengans
Tanks part of the Choju Kebetsu barrage

There are consistent feats. You ignore or downplay them. Its your spiel here since you love Itachi, A, or any character not a Biju.


> Amaterasu can't be extinguished with an air current; notice how even the Juubi shed its skin to get that shit off, instead of trying to blow it out.


Its not 'air current', its a physical shock wave filled with chakra. Juubi couldn't do anything since his head was pinned after he engorged himself. And ignore the fucking fact said Amaterasu was empowered by a Rasenshuriken too.


> Also, the Kyuubi can't roar through its chest or face or back or anywhere else except its mouth, so good luck repelling the rest of Amaterasu that isn't around that area.


You do remember that the chakra roar is omnidirectional, right? Amaterasu's blown off by it.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

The Format said:


> Let's see if an analogy will help here. The goal is to unlock a very complied and indicate lock. One who's attempting it is a child and other is a master lock-breaker. However, the child is given the passcode to the lock while the master lock-breaker is given no such information. This is similar to what's going on her. The Sharingan grants the means of controlling the Kyuubi but the secret to doing so has to be learned. No matter how intricately gifted that master lock-breaker might be chances are he will lever be able to figure out the code and thus break the lock. This isn't speaking towards Obito's skill or general proficiency using genjutsu mind you, but merely an illustration to show why I don't believe Itachi can control the Kyuubi just by wielding a Sharingan.



This is actually a very clever analogy, and I'm going to rep you for giving me a new perspective on the subject, however, I would be a lot more willing to believe this theory if Obito had actually gotten anything other than MS to help him "crack the code"; but he basically awakened MS and was able to Genjutsu the Kyuubi seemingly by intuition alone.


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## eyeknockout (Jun 13, 2014)

Pretty sure the consensus is itachi wins, i read both sides and kyuubi winning side isn't backing up their statements with actual evidence, hype or feats.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> This is actually a very clever analogy, and I'm going to rep you for giving me a new perspective on the subject, however, I would be a lot more willing to believe this theory if Obito had actually gotten anything other than MS to help him "crack the code"; but he basically awakened MS and was able to Genjutsu the Kyuubi seemingly by intuition alone.


He also explicitly got a contract for Kurama. Does Itachi have said contract?


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## ueharakk (Jun 13, 2014)

Pretty sure the consensus is Kurama wins, i read both sides and itachi winning side isn't backing up their statements with actual evidence, hype or feats.


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## iJutsu (Jun 13, 2014)

There's no point in this thread. Uchiha automatically subdues bijuu with their eyes. Madara without wood could do it, Obito with only 1 sharingan could do it, non-ms Sasuke could do it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> There's no point in this thread. Uchiha automatically subdues bijuu with their eyes. Madara without wood could do it, Obito with only 1 sharingan could do it, non-ms Sasuke could do it.


Itachi has no feats. Only two Uchiha have accomplished the feat of controlling Kurama: Madara and Obito, two of the greatest. Post-Timeskip Sasuke only suppressed _a small portion of Kurama's chakra_, something Naruto was actively suppressing so its not a big feat.


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## Sorin (Jun 13, 2014)

Kurama roars, Itachi is sent into the next country, then Kurama destroys that country with a bijuudama. 

Easy.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Given that arm was _full size_, that was a fully transformed arm .


No it wasn't; this is the Hachibi's fully transformed arm, compared to Killer B. The one that saved Naruto isn't even close to that size.


> Not a partially transformed one.


It wasn't the full Hachibi; by definition, that transformation was partial.


> And here's the fucking crux of your downplaying argument: "A IS ABLE TO SEVER GYUKI'S HORN! HE'S STRONGER THAN THE BIJUDAMA! ANYONE CAN DAMAGE A BIJU, SEE, SEE, SEE?! ITACHI CAN BLIND ANY BIJU WITH HIS PUNY SHURIKEN AND KUNAI, HE DOESN'T NEED TO PUT FLAMES ON IT!"


No, that's a strawman of your own making.

A's chop > Bijuudama is a separate argument, and a sound one; if you disagree, feel free to do something constructive for once and offer even a summary refutation.

My arguments can basically be summarized as follows:

-A teenage Obito controlled the full Kyuubi with a basic Sharingan Genjutsu cast with a normal Sharingan. An adult Obito's basic Sharingan Genjutsu was stalemated by Kakashi. Itachi has the Mangekyou Sharingan, which is stronger than normal Sharingan, and can use Genjutsu that far surpass the limits of normal Sharingan Genjutsu. And Itachi completely shits on Kakashi at Genjutsu, too. Ergo, Itachi's Genjutsu should have some effect on either the full or half Kyuubi.

-Amaterasu destroyed the Hachibi's body in a matter of seconds. The Hachibi is the next-strongest Bijuu after the Kyuubi and also has the best durability feats aside from it. Amaterasu should be able to at least damage the Kyuubi.


> You love using low end durability feats for Biju, ignoring and downplaying their high end, and with Kurama, the strongest of the nine you honestly, HONESTLY believe anyone and anything can damage him so you can justify Itachi or any other character whose far below Biju Level can win.


I just explicitly said that defeating the Bijuu would be impossible for most shinobi, let alone the Kyuubi. I'm not saying anything that isn't readily available in the manga, if you're willing to actually look at it.


> His clone was putting on an act. He switched with an Octopus Leg Clone...which means Gyuki's body wasn't even burning up in the first place.


That was the Hachibi's body; it literally fired a Bijuudama moments before getting torched.


> Futon: Rasenshuriken, especially empowered by Senjutsu, is millions of tiny needles on top of an explosion. Cho Odama Rasengan can hollow out mountains.


Both are piddly when compared to Bijuudama, which failed to achieve what Amaterasu did to the Hachibi in *seconds*.


> Amaterasu never even burned the real Gyuki anyway, it was a clone putting on an act for Sasuke. Do you seriously ignore the fact Bee was playing them for a fool?


Obviously B duped Sasuke, but the dupe was hiding in the tentacle...which was a piece of the Hachibi's body, which got incinerated by Amaterasu. What you're overlooking is the fact that B could not have pulled that feint off if the Hachibi's body hadn't been the real deal. And again, based on the Bijuudama, I don't even see how you can contest that.


> Since those attacks are DIRECT Damage, And what injuries, singed fur? Kurama was mostly surprised at how strong Naruto's become, NOT on any pain.


So I guess all that roaring and grimacing was just his way of expressing his joy that Naruto had come so far.


> And finally, Amaterasu is _cumulative damage_, if its immediately dispelled or thrown off it won't cause injury.


And if it can't be removed, then the Kyuubi gets grilled.


> They ate _from Kurama's insides._ Forgot they were swallowed whole?


I'm no expert on giant demon fox anatomy, but flesh on the inside and flesh on the outside generally aren't that different for any living organism in the natural world. Sure, it can't be trained and bulked-up with muscle, which is why Jyuken's so effective, but the Kyuubi would rip apart its own innards every time it moved if it weren't built to withstand that kind of power. 


> And Kurama's durability:
> 
> Tanks V1 Juubi Beam


Well...no. The tails were all grafted down to stumps. And that was a different "form" of the Kyuubi, in a Jinchuuriki; it had no fur.


> Tanks Three Futon Rasenshurikens
> Tanks 27 Cho Odama Rasengans


The fur was singed by those.


> Tanks part of the Choju Kebetsu barrage


I don't even remember what that is.

However, if the Kyuubi gets flaming metal blades in its eyes, I don't think it's going to enjoy the experience.


> There are consistent feats. You ignore or downplay them. Its your spiel here since you love Itachi, A, or any character not a Biju.


I like the Hachibi; Killer B's one of my favorite characters, too.

That's beside the point, though; I'm not ignoring any feats--I'm simply accounting for the feats that you're ignoring.

"But the Hachibi/Kyuubi could withstand Juubidama!" Yeah, well, I know you don't want to believe it, but Itachi's basic Katon shuriken can inflict pain on such creatures's skin. Power inflation is a bitch, but denying it is just pointless and makes you the bad guy.


> Its not 'air current', its a physical shock wave filled with chakra.


Are you going to give me another physics lesson I can quote later? 

Fine.

It's not technically an air current, even if Kishi draws it functioning like one; in actuality, a roar is a vocalization--sound. Sound is a wave that propagates through a medium--in this case, air. However, it doesn't displace the medium it travels through. Know what that means? It oscillates right the fuck through Amaterasu and projects outward without disturbing the flame one fucking bit.

Science, friend.

Now, if you do decide to step back and treat it as an air current, which is honestly exactly the way Kishi chose to render it, then you have to also grapple with the reality that it wasn't strong enough to do much of anything to base Naruto, while Temari's Futon can cut down and move wide patches of thick-ass trees.


> Juubi couldn't do anything since his head was pinned after he engorged himself. And ignore the fucking fact said Amaterasu was empowered by a Rasenshuriken too.


Which made it bigger.


> You do remember that the chakra roar is omnidirectional, right? Amaterasu's blown off by it.


If it's sound, it doesn't displace the flame; if it's air current, it's not strong enough to do anything to Amaterasu anyway.

Works great for charging Bijuus and part 1 Kabutos...not so great on flesh burning with an inextinguishable flame that destroys Bijuu.


ueharakk said:


> Pretty sure the consensus is Kurama wins, i read both sides and itachi winning side isn't backing up their statements with actual evidence, hype or feats.


Then you haven't been reading my posts.


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He also explicitly got a contract for Kurama. Does Itachi have said contract?


The contract is completely extrinsic to Sharingan brainwashing. Or if it actually is important, that isn't something we've been told up to this point.

-snip-


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

The Format said:


> Prime but not the best and not better than Mads or Obito [or Shisui]


 He was better than everyone bar Shisui.



> Not even going to bother arguing this point, other than to save it's largely irrelevant. Itachi lucked out being born a Uchiha, etc etc.


Nice dodge. This was in response to you claiming that madara being the pinnacle uchiha means he is > itachi in genjutsu.



> Hebi Sasuke broke out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi. See down below.


only because itachi let him. It's canon he controls the degree and minute aspects of it, and that sasuke only survived MS because itachi was throwing the fight and only getting oro out



> I find this incredibly hard to believe given the nature of the Uchiha.


Which is? Emotional? Not only are there any examples to support the claim that any did, but the Uchiha are not all power hungry. Madara was up until his brothers death probably would've ended up different. The uchiha clan tried to co op with Konoha but years of discrimination and the kyuubi incident made them revolt. 




> All I'll say is Obito has one thing others don't, Mads teachings. Again, it's no coincidence that the only two to accomplish the feat are Mads and his pupil. Why is this fact being ignored?


cool, Itachi went out and learned all the shit himself. Also Itachi if mentored by anyone would have been under Shisui's tutelage. Shisui being the best ever. Both him and Itachi are the only ones to develop MS genjutsu powerful ass hell. (specific to their eyes). 

Once again Madara did what Sasuke did in gaining EMS, so there is no reason to believe he is even > sasuke in genjutsu skill. MS Itachi was better than EMS Sauce in genjutsu. 

Obito was stalemated by kakashi, and kakashi wouldn't go 1v1 vs Itachi's genjutsu using a clone instead of himself to go eye to eye with, both would have worked to trap him for Naruto's hit btw.





> So because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not possible? I will argue this then and assert that there have been many Tsukuyomi users, we just haven't been shown them on panel using it


Ok and there is no evidence for your claim. The only techniques ever to be widespread that are MS are Izanagi and Izanami. A non uchiha with sharingan can even use Izanagi, as well as an uchiha with one eye. Until shown the only true Tsukuyomi user is Itachi, and the Shinju? Or Kaguya? One of them. Unless you think Madz just passed on ever using either in combat despite using MS genjutsu in battle.



> I don't recall the bolded so if you could post a scan so I could read it in context that would help. You did mention though that Onooki helped him?


Madara uses base MS genjutsu

Onooki saves him and Kai's him. you can't Kai a Tsukuyomi victim.



> That was Part I Kakashi who put himself into the hospital with moderate Sharingan use.


No it wasn't lol. Kakashi's has been put do bed 3 times. Once after the Zabuza fight (which he used way more sharingan than he did vs itachi) , once after being hit by Tsukuyomi, and once in pt. 2 after using MS too many times.

Both Kakashi and Kisame are surprised as to why kakashi isn't dead (they both don't know Itachi is good)

Gai has to carry Kakashi after he collapsed.




> Except it does. EMS and Indra's chakra open doors that aren't available to Itachi. Anyway, we're talking about who's superior in their genjutsu use, not necessarily who's more "skillful". At the end of the day results are what matters and Mads has more means at his disposal to be successful, adding a massive experience gap between the two to the things already mentioned.


How? the only thing it gives him is a better likliehood to awaken similar chakra. Hence why even an outlier like Obito was able to use the rinnengan via hashi DNA, and even become host to multiple paths, and eventually become the juubi jin bruh. Had Itachi wanted he could have presed on for hashi dna, and killed Sasuke for is eyes. He just wasn't about that life.

Genjutsu is all about skill bro. 2 MS user both have the same jutsu. It is the better genjutsu user that wins this is clear. Hence why Itachi's Tsukuyomi still could effect Sasuke's sharingan and vice versa since both let it happen. 




> Let's see if an analogy will help here. The goal is to unlock a very complied and indicate lock. One who's attempting it is a child and other is a master lock-breaker. However, the child is given the passcode to the lock while the master lock-breaker is given no such information. This is similar to what's going on her. The Sharingan grants the means of controlling the Kyuubi but the secret to doing so has to be learned. No matter how intricately gifted that master lock-breaker might be chances are he will lever be able to figure out the code and thus break the lock. This isn't speaking towards Obito's skill or general proficiency using genjutsu mind you, but merely an illustration to show why I don't believe Itachi can control the Kyuubi just by wielding a Sharingan.


No it doesn't. Sasuke needed no training to waltz into Naruto's consciousness and surpress him. He needed no training to turn Manda into a shield. All Itachi needs to know how to do is hypnotize, which he can do. Even if he didn't have MS it wouldn't matter because that isn't needed to genjutsu him. You forget Itachi knows a shit ton about the past as well. 




> Could you provide a scan for the bolded. Don't recall this being stated anywhere.



Manga

Databook:

*Spoiler*: __ 



"Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently,* the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness.* Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes."







> I don't see why it's hard to fathom that Sasuke would be more skilled than Itachi at that point in genjutsu. Does he have access to a powerful genjutsu such as Tsukuyomi? No. But he's shown himself as more than adept. IMO ppl are being overswayed by one very potent genjutsu that Itachi's possesses and find it hard to believe that someone could best him in this area. Sasuke better utilized his 3-tomoe against Itachi's MS--which is what BZ tells us. I also don't see how allowing Sauske to avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi helps his cause at all. Anything he did afterwards he could have done while Sasuke was incapacitated.


His MS showed ability as someone with a 3 tomoe could accomplish. Danzo straight up commented on the difference between them and once again him and shisui gaining ultimate genjutsu unique to them is saying something.

Black Zetsu is commenting from a perspective that Itachi is evil. Hence why he later says Itachi must have been severly injured prior to the fight. He doesn't know Itachi is not fighting to kill Sasuke.




> You're asserting that any Sharingan user worth their salt can control the Kyuubi and you're asking me for proof to the contrary?  Come on man.


-3 tomoe surpressed the kyuubi and made him fear Sasuke.
-3 tomoe allowed Sasuke to make Manda kill himself for his best interest.
-The village thought that the Uchiha clan was controlling the Kyuubi, and no one knew that Itachi had MS. Everyone else had 3 tomoe. 
-Obito only needed 3 tomoe to take him over. The only advantage he had was hashi DNA which has no bearing on genjutsu skill.
-All Uchiha are renowned for their illusions.

Balls in your corner.




> Suppressed, not controlled. It's also worth noting that Karuma (Kishi) made sure to note how Sasuke's essence reminded him of Mads'.


regardless it was his sharingan which allowed him to do so, Kurama was just making an observation.



> Degree being the operative word. Being able to suppress does not imply you can control where the reverse may be true


.
Ok, so then you agree to suppress something you are exerting selective control over it? The whole point of suppression is affect in so much that it cannot be revealed, used, heard, etc. Which is exactly what sasuke did. Any use of suppresion automatically involves control.




> lol Kisame isn't bitching as Itachi at all. Kisame actually seems quite calm and jovial.


He was friendishly bitching at him because he didn't fight the thing therefore had no reason to talk about it.



> Itachi didn't participate because Kisame was deemed more suitable for the job. That wouldn't have been the case if Itachi was capable of the ability that you, among others, are asserting he is capable of. This is pretty irrelevant anyway, as Itachi's lack of motive to control (and capture) bijuus isn't proof in any manner towards his ability to do so.


No Tobi, and the databook prove that wrong. Plus this was never mentioned so it is a huge assumption on your part with no evidence.




> Oro was still able to move every so slightly after being hit with Shiki Fūjin showing that mobility is still possible. In fact, after Nagato is sealed Kabuto immediately comments on Nagato's lack of mobility.


He was able to talk like Nagato. If he could move freely he would have rebirthed and survived especially since he was told what weapon it is. Once pierced you cannot get out. Kabuto has no idea the mechanics of Totsuka, and probably was referring to Nagato being able to react via sensing and dodge it if he was mobile.


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## StickaStick (Jun 13, 2014)

I'll have to get back to this tomorrow man. Like Itachi stamina isn't my greatest asset, in this case when it comes to detailed replies.


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## trance (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> It's pretty ridiculous at this point to think that Itachi can't control the Kyuubi. The only thing Obito had going for him was that everybody thought he was Madara; in actuality, he wasn't, though--*he was just a scrub-ass Uchiha who awakened MS*, which seems to indicate that what Sasuke said about the MS's power to control the Kyuubi is absolute. Like I've been saying for years.



Obito was also trained personally by Madara for about a year. In that time frame, he went from borderline Jonin level to being able to compete against Minato, who was Hokage, for a short period of time. Madara even noted that Obito possessed a lot of potential.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Obito was also trained personally by Madara for about a year. In that time frame, he went from borderline Jonin level to being able to compete against Minato, who was Hokage, for a short period of time. Madara even noted that Obito possessed a lot of potential.



I don't know what kind of training Madara put him through, but a year isn't nearly enough time for Obito to go from worse Genjutsu than Wave Arc Sasuke to...better than Itachi. Despite whatever other random power-ups he was basically handed.

-snip-


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## trance (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't know what kind of training Madara put him through, but a year isn't nearly enough time for Obito to go from worse Genjutsu than Wave Arc Sasuke to...better than Itachi. Despite whatever other random power-ups he was basically handed.



Did I ever say he was better than Itachi?


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## Ersa (Jun 13, 2014)

Not to mention he used 3 tomoe to subdue the Kyuubi.

I'd say with comparable skill in genjutsu and Itachi having a tool that the author stated to be able to control the Kyuubi should be enough to grant Itachi the same feat as 14 year old Obito.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 13, 2014)

In Obito's case we shouldn't forget that he got Hashirama's DNA. Thing that not only drastically improve everything including Sharingan-related abilities(see Danzo) but also something that controlled Kyubi by itself. I don't think that Kishi was keeping that in mind though. Anyways - both Uchiha suspicion and several clear statements that MS by itself controls Kyubi is enough to grant Itachi that ability. I mean - it was the *main* point behind setting Uchihas up. If you really need to be "more special than you" even within Uchihas - Hiruzen with all his knowledge and intelligence would've shut down those suspicions.


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## Ghost (Jun 13, 2014)

Itachi can subdue Kurama with Mangekyo Sharingan. If that is restricted I don't remember anything implying that Totsuka no Tsurugi wouldn't be able to seal Kurama so *get bottld*


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Obito has Hashirama Senju DNA and had Madara the only other Kyuubi controller as his teacher. If Kyuubi control was simply Genjutsu I'd buy Itachi doing it, but the fact that the control can be taken away by contract seal, cast serious doubt for me that this is all about Genjutsu alone.
> 
> Also assuming Itachi can control it that doesn't give him the win. He still needs to deal with it some how while he controls it, which would depend on Totsuka's sealing capabilities as I said before.



Contract seal either allowed Obito to control it from remote distances or for longer periods of time.

We know for a fact that the actual control comes with eye power. Databook and manga state so.
Also the databook doesn't refer to Kyuubi control as genjutsu. It says that sharingan tames the beats and it likens Sasuke's possession of Manda to Madara's control over the Kyuubi.
I say possession because manda's eyes turned into sharingan, we haven't seen it in any other instance when genjutsu was cast on another individual.

Possessing beasts is certainly different than casting genjutsu on someone.

How Itachi defeats him ? Makes him charge a bijuudama and swallow it when its about to go off. 



The Format said:


> This isn't supported by anything. Itachi's claim to fame his is vast array of genjustu utilizations and tricks. While impressive, they're more neat than overbearing.
> 
> 
> Honestly, I feel almost silly having to defend why Mads > Itachi in genjutsu so I'll be brief. Besides being portrayed as the pinnacle Uchiha, which I have no doubt extends to all facets, Mads has the distinction of of being first and one of the only to control the Kyuubi with his Sharingan. Furthermore, being one of Indra's reincarnates and the first to unlock EMS grants him a special chakra and Sharingan which only makes sense to increase the potency of his genjutsu. To suggest that this combined with Mads' extensive experience and life-span advantage ad compared to Itachi doesn't place him above Itachi in genjutsu specifically seems ridiculous to me.
> ...



Controlling Kyuubi means top tier genjutsu master since when ? 

Databook doesn't even refer it as genjutsu.



Rocky said:


> Why are people speaking of the Totsuka Sword as if it's a solid method of victory here?
> 
> Its greatest feat is cutting Kimimaro's bones, which is decent but not necessarily impressive. Kurama, at half his power and size, swallowed Naruto's Senpō: Raseshuriken with only singed fur to show for it. Unless Totsuka has cutting power _greater_ than that of FRS, which is essentially a giant shredder, then it won't break skin. Totsuka's capabilities are currently unclear, so there isn't enough evidence to determine if the sword would even get have _chance_ to seal him in the first place.
> 
> ...



Sasuke's sword went through Madara like butter while Naruto's YRS which cut the God tree, couldn't.

Tell me, what is FRS's greatest feat ?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

-------------Kyuubi Votes--------------



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama completely and utterly destroys Itachi. Far too strong for him. Itachi can't even scratch him with his techniques and I doubt Itachi's genjutsu is stronger than Madara's which is one of the only two Uchiha strong enough to subdue Kurama with their Dojutsu.





Remsengan said:


> Ninjutsu gets Roar'd away.  Genjutsu is a wash unless Itachi has Shinsui's eye.  I don't see Izanami working on most humans, let alone demons.  Even so, there's no way Itachi is going to prep it, and keep Susano'o up, and keep Kurama busy at the same time.
> 
> Totsuka is up for debate.  There's not enough info to say for sure but I don't think it could work.  Otherwise Itachi would have just ruined Madara by sealing a Biju forever in the gourd.





ueharakk said:


> *Unless itachi has a summoning contract with the kyuubi, he's not controlling it with genjutsu.*
> 
> Amaterasu at best turns it into a double K.O. as the kyuubi is far more durable than the hachibi, far larger, has far better regen, can block it with its tails, or it can outright dodge the technique if the distance is far enough.  Kurama nukes itachi into nothing long before it succums to the flames.
> 
> ...





TensaXZangetsu said:


> Yikes these flock of Itachi fanboys honestly think Itachi can defeat nine tails...





MusubiKazesaru said:


> Itachi dies horribly, one uncharged BB, tail swipe, or a paw or two is enough to end this





Kazekage94 said:


> People actually believe Itachi can beat the 9 tails. TBB GG Also if Kurama roars Itachi is dead





Sorin said:


> Kurama roars, Itachi is sent into the next country, then Kurama destroys that country with a bijuudama.
> 
> Easy.



-------------Undecided--------------



Turrin said:


> Match still depends on how Kyuubi control works and the limits of Totsuka-Sword. Nothing has changed.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

-------------Itachi Votes--------------



Atlantic Storm said:


> I wouldn't say it's far-fetched to believe that Itachi could simply control the Kyūbi. The Mangekyō Sharingan is confirmed to be able to do so and Obito managed to play the fox like a fiddle. Itachi is more or less the preeminent Uchiha when it comes to genjutsu, with the exception of Shisui as far as power comes and has received far more hype when it comes to using illusions than Obito. Bear in mind, also, that Obito had only one eye at the time, and it's been recently illuminated that the Sharingan is far stronger than both are together.
> 
> Furthermore, it's worth noting that Sasuke was also able to suppress the Kyūbi with his base Sharingan and in respects to both ocular and illusory prowess, he was nowhere near Itachi's level at the time.
> 
> Other than that, in straight up combat scenario he would lose. Amaterasu affected the Hachibi, but as far as feats are concerned, he's vastly inferior to even 50% Kurama, who was able to take on seven bijū at once while Gyūki was having trouble with one or two. A full power Kyūbi should have no trouble dealing with it, and it's very likely he'd just roar Itachi back even under damage from the flames.





Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Izanami wins this for Itachi. If Izanami doesn't count then I think that Itachi could blindside Kurama and seal him via Totsuka, he's far too small compared to Kurama for him to notice anything.





Fox91 said:


> Method 1- Control Kyuubi
> Method 2- Susano'o, Sword of Totsuka
> Method 3- Amaterasu
> 
> ...





Kyu said:


> MS suppression should work but if it doesn't Itachi's safest bet is to encase himself inside his Complete _Susano'o_ and slash Kurama with _Totsuka Blade_.
> 
> However at 10 meters not much is stopping stopping Kurama from sending Itachi flying via _Chakra Roar_ followed up with a _Bijudama_ - immediately ending the Uchiha's life.
> 
> Amaterasu could possibly kill Kurama if the flames manage to spread over the fox's entire body but Kurama can still obliterate Itachi before that happens.





Bonly said:


> That's kinda sizist brah, kinda like a racist but with size instead. You gotta work on that.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh that will do Niku, that will do. In that case Itachi uses his genjutsu and successfully calms Kurama.





Cognitios said:


> Itachi is honestly the perfect Bijuu killer.
> Totsuka + Amaterasu + Sharingan Genjutsu is a killer combo that Kyuubi just can't beat.





eyeknockout said:


> itachi's fast enough to dodge kyuubi's initial attacks, even if he's not partial susanoo should be able to fight atleast 50% kyuubi blow for blow in physical combat since SM Naruto could and susanoo has shown strength feats on par with SM naruto.
> 
> Itachi's reaction speed is fast enough to react to kyuubi's chakra roar allowing him to put up susanoo as defense and he won't die (since many ninja without the greatest defense susanoo survived CST). Not to mention yata's mirror may possibly just reflect the kyuubi roar.
> 
> ...





alex payne said:


> MS controls Kyubi
> Itachi got MS mastered
> Itachi got mad genjutsu hype
> Sasuke with 3-tomoe suppressed Kyubi's leak inside Naruto
> ...





Dr. White said:


> SSM12 here to quick downplay Itachi for the first point. I'll give you 10 points for swiftness and effort.
> 
> On topic:
> -Itachi's genjutsu's Kurama. GG.





Likes boss said:


> Itachi has 3 options here:
> Genjustu: but I feel as if Itachi lacks the chakra to control something so powerful.
> Amaterasu: which ultimately ends in a draw considering the moment Kurama catches fire is the moment BD'S and Rapid fire BD'S blow Itachi off the planet.
> Totsuka: which would never work , cause Itachi can't possibly get close enough to Kurama to use it.
> ...





King Itachi said:


> Nothing short of Bijuudama and/or chakra roar will take out Base Itachi...
> When his MS and Susano'o are added to the equation, he's got the thing outclassed.
> 
> - The Kyuubi has never actively tried to avoid genjutsu, and it's ridiculous to state otherwise in this match-up.
> ...





I Am Anarchy said:


> Where are you getting that information?
> 
> Sasuke was able to suppress the Kyuubi through Dojutsu when Naruto tried to use its power.  Obito used Genjutsu to control the Kyuubi only after it was pulled out of Kushina.  Madara found Kyuubi in the wild before using the Sharingan.  None of them had a summoning contract, they all just used the Sharingan to control the nine tails.
> 
> ...


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Itachi votes cont.:



Feng Shui said:


> Genjutsu would be his best option along with totsuka blade.
> Amaterasu would take a while for it to burn kurama completely.
> Kyuubi would just bijuudama him and unless Yata mirror can block that he's screwed.
> Itachi tsukuyomi's him and seals him with totsuka blade.





Kai said:


> Mangekyo controls Kyuubi, as stated. Itachi tames Kurama without bloodshed.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't see the point of this thread with sharingan control allowed. Because Itachi walks up to Kyuubi and casually turns him into his pet fox.
> 
> If thats restricted, I think it'd depend on whether Totsuka could seal Kyuubi or not. Or whether Kyuubi can shed body parts like Juubi to survive Amaterasu.





The Format said:


> Mads and Obito are the only two Sharingan wielders to canonically _control_ the Kyuubi. It's no coincidence that Mads was the first stated to do it and his pupil (Obito) was the second and only other. The reasonabe extrapolation to take from this is that the Sharingan grants the potential to control the Kyuubi, but not necessarily the inherent ability. Some people are pointing towards Sasuke's demonstration of suppressing the Kyuubi with his 3-tomoe. The issue here is that suppressing =/= controlling. To grant Itachi this feat by association when only two other Sharingan wielders--who are both superior to Itachi in genjustsu--have accomplished the feat seems questionable to me.
> 
> With the said I would not surprise me if Obito somewhere down the line did teach Itachi how to suppress the Kyuubi with the Sharingan as Itachi did refer to him as his "teacher". In fact, it would make a lot of sense considering the obvious advantage the ability grants when hunting bijuu--in particular the Kyuubi. However, this is merely an assumption on my part (even if a strong one I feel) and not necessarily supported by anything canon to the manga.
> 
> ...





ARGUS said:


> Itachi wins this due to Amaterasu,,,,
> It sets kyuubi on fire,,,, and unlike Hachibi,,, it cant afford to extract its limbs,,,,
> Seeing how sasuke used  his 3T to get inside narutos kyuubi,,,, it is highly possible that itachi can control the kyuubi through his MS,,,,  and with tsukuyomi,,,, itachi has a good shot in subduing the kyuubi





Ersatz said:


> This.
> 
> It's laughable how some fans try to deny the manga to order to suit their bias.
> 
> ...





Dr. Leonard Church said:


> Itachi uses Kotoamatsukami to TnJ the Kyuubi. GG





Fiiction said:


> Itachi can easily subdue kurama, idk why that's even up for discussion. The main question is does he have the reserves to do so while coming up with a way to destroy it?
> 
> Amaterasu is a large target's worst nightmare. The fire will keep spreading like it did against Nagato's dog. I'm not mentioning the hachibi feat because that came from a superior  amaterasu user.
> 
> ...





iJutsu said:


> There's no point in this thread. Uchiha automatically subdues bijuu with their eyes. Madara without wood could do it, Obito with only 1 sharingan could do it, non-ms Sasuke could do it.





saikyou said:


> Itachi can subdue Kurama with Mangekyo Sharingan. If that is restricted I don't remember anything implying that Totsuka no Tsurugi wouldn't be able to seal Kurama so *get bottld*





Aikuro said:


> Totsuka GG.



Perspective: It's not just a river in Egypt. 

The general consensus seems pretty clear, albeit not quite unanimous.


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## Kaiser (Jun 13, 2014)

Where did i vote Kyubi?


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## Cognitios (Jun 13, 2014)

Niku on a rant yo.
Maeks me proud 

It is unrealistic to say that Itachi's genjutsu cannot at the very least stun Kurama for a few seconds.
Amaterasu ends Kurama anyway
Totsuka pierces him, as a "spirit weapon" it has no physical form, thus pierces any solid without a direct counter.
As for sealing it, it was hyped as the perfect weapon by Kaguya's Will the only people who think it can't pierce are people who just straight out hate Itachi. or love minato, or both.


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## αce (Jun 13, 2014)

This is from the databook so take it with a grain of salt



> [Eye power]
> The main reason why the "Sharingan" was feared by everyone, including  the inhabitants of the village, is the power hidden in those eyes, able  to subdue even "bijuu". Sasuke, who is rapidly mastering his skills as  an Uchiha, is also gradually awakening to that cursed power.
> 
> (balloons: "Those eyes... How did you dare... control me... with those eyes...!")
> ...


databook 2


> The culmination of the Sharingan that makes the Uchiha clan so special!  Eye techniques holding the utmost potency even above both the insight  and hypnosis, such as Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu become possible.  Assuredly, Mangekyou Sharingan is the ultimate doujutsu*.
> *It apears these heavenly eyes** have further special powers that are yet  to be clarified, but just what those could be about (is unknown)......*


Also, this summoning contract seal argument sounds like croc shit to me. The very first time Madara met the Kyuubi he couldn't have possibly have had a summoning contract on account of it being their first meeting. Yet within moments of finding the Kyuubi, he casually subdued it with his Mangekyou abilities. I know someone is going to come in here and argue that he has the eternal Mangekyou and thus the comparison between him and Itachi isn't valid - yet the manga points time and time again to that ability being unlocked once the mangekyou is also unlocked. And both Madara and Obito subdued it with just a three tomoe suggesting that once the mangekyou is unlocked you can use the bijuu controlling genjutsu in any form of your sharingan. He wasn't using his eternal mangekyou in this situation.

Please put this summoning contract b.s. away.



_



			Let's see if an analogy will help here.  The goal is to unlock a very complied and indicate lock. One who's  attempting it is a child and other is a master lock-breaker. However,  the child is given the passcode to the lock while the master  lock-breaker is given no such information. This is similar to what's  going on her. The Sharingan grants the means of controlling the Kyuubi  but the secret to doing so has to be learned. No matter how intricately  gifted that master lock-breaker might be chances are he will lever be  able to figure out the code and thus break the lock. This isn't speaking  towards Obito's skill or general proficiency using genjutsu mind you,  but merely an illustration to show why I don't believe Itachi can  control the Kyuubi just by wielding a Sharingan.
		
Click to expand...

_ 

This would hold weight if mangekyou abilities weren't so plug and play. Obito casually used Kamui near flawlessly within seconds of unlocking his mangekyou. Sasuke knew he was capable of using Susano-o before it even came around and every time he upgraded it, every ability that the Susano-o had was known to him within moments. Madara uses Kamui casually after gaining it for the first time. The list goes on. This even applies to the rinnegan. Madara was using random rinnegan techniques like limbo on first use and Sasuke was using his laughably broken technique within moments of gaining his rinnegan.

Mangekyou abilities don't need time or practice to learn. If you know you can do the jutsu, you're simply going to do it. Itachi knows he can subdue the Kyuubi thus he's going to do it. There's no specific way to approach this from his perspective. Just blink at the fox with your mangekyou and you win. Yeah, it's not really fair but that's how it works.








I don't see any situation in which Itachi loses this unless the Kyuubi can fire off a bijuu dama before he realizes that Itachi has a mangekyou. I don't find that situation plausible though since the Kyuubi would be trapped the moment he looks into his eyes and he didn't manage to do anything against Madara in the same situation. Genjutsu + Amaterasu + Totsuka to end it. The Kyuubi is just going to get stun locked the entire fight.


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## Kazekage94 (Jun 13, 2014)

Madara >> Itachi In Everything skills. Itachi never surpassed him.

These people believe he can subdue the 9 tails in what 5 minutes? This is almost as ludicrous as Sai beating Ay.

Kurama fires 11 TBB. Yalta Mirror gets obliterated. Kurama jumps up and down Earthquake GG. 

Flames won't work. TB gets Chakra roared and most likely has an effect similar to Almighty Push. Itachi dies of amazement.

As if any Uchiha bar EMS Madara with a crap ton of years for him to be able to control the 9 tails can defeat the 9 tails.

I love you Amy Lee ↓


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Madara >> Itachi In Everything skills. Itachi never surpassed him.
> 
> These people believe he can subdue the 9 tails in what 5 minutes? This is almost as ludicrous as Sai beating Ay.
> 
> ...



Genjutsu, GG.

Teenage Obito's 3-tomoe Sharingan was enough; Itachi mind-rapes the Kyuubi into a coma.



Blake said:


> Where did i vote Kyubi?



Fair enough; I removed you from the list.

The Kyuubi side just looked so small; I wanted to count for them whatever votes I could possibly find, of which there were not many.


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Madara >> Itachi In Everything skills. Itachi never surpassed him.
> 
> These people believe he can subdue the 9 tails in what 5 minutes? This is almost as ludicrous as Sai beating Ay.
> 
> ...



Itachi > Madara in intelligence (atleast in battle) and genjutsu brah.

Itachi has Base sharingan genjutsu/(which soloed Oro,Pre- SM Naruto and even caught Bee), regular genjutsu( Ukataka, and the jutsu he copied from Kurenai) Tsukuyomi (which only Madara, Obito, and EMS Sauce can break), Izanami (to nullify Izanagi users), Shisui's eye (with a charged Koto/Base genjutsu from the best) and Totsuka (a Fuinjutsu/Genjutsu). 

Madara has base sharingan genjutsu and one feat with it. 

Obito has base genjutsu and Izanagi.

No one bar Shisui (via hype) is on Itachi's level in genjutsu.


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## Kaiser (Jun 13, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi > Madara in intelligence (atleast in battle) and genjutsu brah.


I agree in intelligence but not in genjutsu. Madara has more powerful dojutsu that should normally give him stronger abilities. Besides, Itachi can't control multiple people simultaneously. Madara controlled a squad of kirigakure nins effortlessly


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

Blake said:


> I agree in intelligence but not in genjutsu. Madara has more powerful dojutsu that should normally give him stronger abilities. Besides, Itachi can't control multiple people simultaneously. Madara controlled a squad of kirigakure nins effortlessly



Please read the rest of the post I added. Not only does Itachi have more feats/hype in the category, but he has the best arsenal genjutsu wise as well. The only genjutsu skill hasn't shown use of so far is Izanagi. Which doesn't really matter since he has Susano for protection and Izanami to counter Izanagi.

Also Ao said Itachi was capable of controlling multiple people from outside sensor range. People ususally try to so Ao meant he could control people from afar (like the girl in pt. 1) but his is only half true. There is no plausable way Itachi could have been affecting multiple units at once across the globe. So far Ao to indicate that ic could have been Itachi speaks to his skill in long range genjutsu feats.

Curiously in the anime they elaborated on Ao's encounter with shisui (itachi's mentor) and it debuted him catching people from meters away with no LOS. Coincidence? I think not.

Yet within moments of finding the Kyuubi, he casually subdued it with his Mangekyou abilities.


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## Ashi (Jun 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Partial Transformations are weaker than full transformations. Far weaker given the feats.
> 
> Nikushimi, you routinely downplay any Biju Durability feat to claim any ninja can injure them. Even Kurama. You have so little respect for them that you believe _anyone and anything can hurt them_. The moment Gyuki tanked his own Bijudama showed that Amaterasu and everything else in Itachi's arsenal is worthless against a fully transformed Biju.
> 
> ...




It's not really tanking if it makes it knocked him back into Bee


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

Lol at SSM12 comparing a never ending fire burning flame to an explosion. Hachibi already canonically was soloed by Ama , yet now he can tank it


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Madara >> Itachi In Everything skills. Itachi never surpassed him.
> 
> These people believe he can subdue the 9 tails in what 5 minutes? This is almost as ludicrous as Sai beating Ay.
> 
> ...



Yes, Madara is stronger than Tsunade, faster than Minato, more skilled in taijutsu than Gai and more intelligent than Shikamaru.  Just because he is Madara :ignoramus


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 13, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> But you haven't responded to my numerous points on the matter and continue to spew one liners.



What's there to respond to? Generic BB, gg. It doesn't even have to be charged. Kyuubi closes its eyes if it really needs to


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Blake said:


> I agree in intelligence but not in genjutsu. Madara has more powerful dojutsu that should normally give him stronger abilities. Besides, Itachi can't control multiple people simultaneously.



Actually, it's suggested that he can; Shikaku thought he was the one slaughtering people during the Zetsu night raid, by controlling the allied forces with his Genjutsu.



> Madara controlled a squad of kirigakure nins effortlessly



Did Madara control those ninja with Genjutsu? They seemed to be talking to each other like they were themselves.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> The sheer amount of Itachi wank in this thread is cancerous



You can complain or you can actually do something productive like contribute a refutation with evidence to support your dissent.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> What's there to respond to? Generic BB, gg. It doesn't even have to be charged. Kyuubi closes its eyes if it really needs to



Hachibi withstood Bijuudama -> Susano'o is more durable than the Hachibi -> Bijuudama fails.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 13, 2014)

The only Susanoo that can stand up to BBs from Bijuu 1-8 is a PS which Itachi doesn't have.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Hachibi withstood Bijuudama -> Susano'o is more durable than the Hachibi -> Bijuudama fails.



Operating only under the pretense that the Hachibi and Kyūbi have equally powerful Bijūdama. 

Yonbi Naruto completely obliterated Triple Rashōmon with his fodder-status Bijūdama, and those gates are more durable than the Hachibi.

That puts the fox above the ox.


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Operating only under the pretense that the Hachibi and Kyūbi have equally powerful Bijūdama.
> 
> Yonbi Naruto completely obliterated Triple Rashōmon with his fodder-status Bijūdama, and those gates are more durable than the Hachibi.
> 
> That puts the fox above the ox.



I'm not neccasarily agreeing with his A> B > C logic but Hachibi took a combined force of his own exploding with the Juubidama's. Meaning it wasn't just his, and Juubi > Kyuubi.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 13, 2014)

Kyubi is indeed significantly above other bijus. Even before Kishi went nuts with retcons and nukes it was stated that Akatsuki's sealing method required Kyubi to be sealed last. Like there isn't much of a difference between 1-8 tailed - seal them in any order. But 9-tails? Holy shit, better balance it with all other bijus combined. There is also Hachibi's lackluster performance against Sasuke and Raikage - Raiton slice-and-dice. While 50% Kyubi took Odama Rasengan barrage followed by FRS... and was mildly annoyed basically.
So I can see an argument being made about Amaterasu not working properly and Totsuka having difficulties with piercing the beast. I am personally not really sure about it. But I am certain that there is no hard evidence to properly support either side. Unlike with MS control.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2014)

There's nothing wrong with transitive logic when discussing individual stats like durability.

B used Bijūdama to push he Jūbi's blast back inside of itself; the explosion was contained inside of its own skin. B didn't take anything.


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There's nothing wrong with transitive logic when discussing individual stats like durability.
> 
> B used Bijūdama to push he Jūbi's blast back inside of itself; the explosion was contained inside of its own skin. B didn't take anything.



The Juubidama was about to blast the shit out of the alliance but the Kamui surprise attacks allowed Bee push the blast back, but regardles it still exploded right in his face. Once his went off it no doubt mixed with the juubi, and filled the volume of the juubi's body but also fried bee as the juubi's mouth was a gaping hole for the pressure/energy to escape through.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> The Juubidama was about to blast the shit out of the alliance but the Kamui surprise attacks allowed Bee push the blast back



Kamui was not involved....



> but also fried bee as the juubi's mouth was a gaping hole for the pressure/energy to escape through.



A very small portion of the blast escaped through its mouth, yes. B surviving that isn't similar in the slightest to tanking the "combined force" of both his and the Jūbi's Bijūdama.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There's nothing wrong with transitive logic when discussing individual stats like durability.
> 
> B used Bijūdama to push he Jūbi's blast back inside of itself; the explosion was contained inside of its own skin. B didn't take anything.



The Hachibi's head was the only thing plugging the Juubi's mouth and keeping the blast contained, though; and the face got all-fucked up, so it was definitely hit.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> The only Susanoo that can stand up to BBs from Bijuu 1-8 is a PS which Itachi doesn't have.



Hachibi withstood Bijuudama. The 4th Raikage chopped through the Hachibi's horn completely, yet failed to get more than half-way through Sasuke's miniature Susano'o ribcage. Ergo, Susano'o is more durable than the Hachibi and should withstand Bijuudama pretty safely.



Rocky said:


> Operating only under the pretense that the Hachibi and Kyūbi have equally powerful Bijūdama.



There is overlap; the Kyuubi can fire Bijuudama weaker than the Hachibi's norm and the Hachibi can fire Bijuudama stronger than the Kyuubi's norm.

Ex.: B's mini-sized partial Hachibi hand stopped and suppressed the Kyuubi's smaller Bijuudama, yet the Hachibi's own standard Bijuudama knocked it out of commission for a while.



> Yonbi Naruto completely obliterated Triple Rashōmon with his fodder-status Bijūdama, and those gates are more durable than the Hachibi.



Based on results, no; the Hachibi withstood a much more powerful Bijuudama--its own.



> That puts the fox above the ox.



The fox is above the ox, but the fox's Bijuudama is not always above the ox's Bijuudama, and the ox's Bijuudama isn't sufficient to breach Susano'o.

Not that the Kyuubi can't do it, but simply stating "Bijuudama GG" isn't absolutely true.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 13, 2014)

Keep the debate civil, please.


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kamui was not involved....


I was referring to something else I guess lol, I can't find the panel though.




> A very small portion of the blast escaped through its mouth, yes. B surviving that isn't similar in the slightest to tanking the "combined force" of both his and the Jūbi's Bijūdama.



He still took a shitload of the blast, it basically chimney'd into his face.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2014)

I see a small column of smoke being blasted at him.

I don't see how said smoke column is more powerful than _any_ Bijūdama.



Nikushimi said:


> There is overlap; the Kyuubi can fire Bijuudama weaker than the Hachibi's norm and the Hachibi can fire Bijuudama stronger than the Kyuubi's norm.



I know.



> Ex.: B's mini-sized partial Hachibi hand stopped and suppressed the Kyuubi's smaller Bijuudama, yet the Hachibi's own standard Bijuudama knocked it out of commission for a while.



That took B right out of that fight though.



> Based on results, no; the Hachibi withstood a much more powerful Bijuudama--its own.



What exactly puts B's Bijūdama (used on the Ten Tails) above Yobi Naruto's?

The Ox had been damaged by mere Kunai and Shuriken, and it only took one Rashōmon gate to stop Kiba's Twin Wolf shredder thing.



> The fox is above the ox, but the fox's Bijuudama is not always above the ox's Bijuudama, and the ox's Bijuudama isn't sufficient to breach Susano'o.



But it can withstand Kurama's because...?



> Not that the Kyuubi can't do it, but simply stating "Bijuudama GG" isn't absolutely true.



...Now you've confused me.


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## ueharakk (Jun 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I see a small column of smoke being blasted at him.
> 
> I don't see how said smoke column is more powerful than _any_ Bijūdama.



you don't even have to argue that.  

The hachibi took far more damage from his bijuudama to the chest than he took from whatever portion of the juubidama hit him in the face.  *The distance the hachibi was sent by the blast* wasn't even remotely close to the *distance he was sent by his own bijuudama explosion,* and that's even with BM NAruto stopping his momentum.

Unless someone wants to assert that getting hit in the chest yields far more damage than getting hit in the face, or that the hachibi's bijuudama > Juubidama, the hachibi didn't take power anywhere near even one of his normal bijuudamas.


As far as durability is concerned, the hachibi has gushed blood after being stabbed by the gobi's horn charge, while attacks like senpou FRS don't even manage to draw blood from the kyuubi.  50% Kurama's durability is obviously >>>>>>>> the hachibi's.



Nikushimi said:


> Hachibi withstood Bijuudama. The 4th Raikage chopped through the Hachibi's horn completely, yet failed to get more than half-way through Sasuke's miniature Susano'o ribcage. Ergo, Susano'o is more durable than the Hachibi and should withstand Bijuudama pretty safely.


We've given compelling evidence that the horns of the hachibi aren't anywhere near the durability of the skin when *its horns get blown off from this blast, while its face barely even bleeds.*

A V3 legged susanoo powered by senjutsu was completely destroyed with the user getting amputated *by an attack that's not on the level of even a normal bijuudama.*
Sasuke's V3 was blown open by a fuuton that's no where near the power of a FRS, the same attack that couldn't even draw blood on Kurama.
Madara's V3 was busted by hirudorah, an attack that's no where near the power of a bijuudama.
The hachibi took far less damage from bijuu acid and lava than actual susanoos took from mei's acid and lava.
Sasuke was forced to level his susanoo up from ribcage in order to survive *this attack* while Kurama takes next to no damage from *this attack.*

By pretty much every durability feat of applicable susanoos, the MS-sized ones are not surviving a standard bijuudama.


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> The hachibi took far more damage from his bijuudama to the chest than he took from whatever portion of the juubidama hit him in the face.  *The distance the hachibi was sent by the blast* wasn't even remotely close to the *distance he was sent by his own bijuudama explosion,* and that's even with BM NAruto stopping his momentum.


The two instances are different though as in your instant, Bee is using one of his stronger bombs (to injure the juubi) and is being it mid fall. The bjuu's hands are massive and the juubi flicked it at the relatively small Bee sending him and the tbb flying adding to the damage he took.

In the other instance the bomb was sent downwards and exploded puffing the juubi up and forcing the heat, energy, etc straight into bee's face (as a general rule faces tend to be vital points of a body less durable than other parts unless stated otherwise.), Bee was using his strength to anchor himself to make sure he contained the blast. Hachibi's got great durabilty feats, yet he got trashed by Amaterasu, because the mechanics of the jutsu are different. Even the juubi had to lop off amaterasu before sasuke drowned him in amaterasu.




> As far as durability is concerned, the hachibi has gushed blood after being stabbed by the gobi's horn charge, while attacks like senpou FRS don't even manage to draw blood from the kyuubi.  50% Kurama's durability is obviously >>>>>>>> the hachibi's.


Kurama was injured by FRS an put down temporrily by COR though, meaning he can be hurt by conventional means. Amaterasu hurt Bee and put down Cerberus who seconds earlier was eating FRS's from KCM Naruto. 

Once again even the juubi had to stop Amaterasu by shedding apart of its body to survive.


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## StickaStick (Jun 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> This is actually a very clever analogy, and I'm going to rep you for giving me a new perspective on the subject, however, I would be a lot more willing to believe this theory if Obito had actually gotten anything other than MS to help him "crack the code"; but he basically awakened MS and was able to Genjutsu the Kyuubi seemingly by intuition alone.


He had Mads' teachings. Along with forbidden Uchiha shit, Rikudo shit, and whatever else, how to control the Kyuubi would be among these things. In other words, he has the code. I just can't get past the idea that only two people have done it and the second is the first's pupil. And yet I'm supposed to believe it's innate?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Controlling Kyuubi means top tier genjutsu master since when ?
> 
> *Databook doesn't even refer it as genjutsu.*


If you believe that then it doesn't really matter how proficient Itachi is in genjutsu, does it? 
It would seem to strengthen my point that it's something to be learned and not innate. Otherwise we would have at least one other example of someone controlling the Kyuubi outside of an inquisitive Mads and his pupil.


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## eyeknockout (Jun 13, 2014)

hachibi blocked the kyuubi's bijuudama in naruto's mind with one hand even when he said he was weaker because it's naruto's mind.

hachibi tanked his own bijuudama along with the juubi's bijuudama and juubi > kyuubi.

full susanoo is more durable than hachibi, that's not even considering yata's mirror. Naruto said gaara's sand and susanoo and the strongest denfense, he never said it was hachibi or kurama's skin so even he knows the truth. therefore itachi's susanoo can handle a bijuudama


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2014)

The Format said:


> If you believe that then it doesn't really matter how proficient Itachi is in genjutsu, does it?


Yes, so you can't treat controlling Kyuubi as the best genjutsu feat ever, because it isn't refered as such in the manga or in the databook. Otherwise they'd probably put Shisui's ability to control Kyuubi to test first, and then grant him the title of the strongest genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan.



> It would seem to strengthen my point that it's something to be learned and not innate.


Thats purely speculation. Sasuke saw Naruto after 2.5 years, and was immdiately able to supress Kyuubi's chakra by the tip of the very same ability.
Later on he summoned manda and controlled him on the fly, again databook refers to it as the same ability.
I think someone who is already proficient @ casting top tier sharigan genjutsu and meets the prerequisites(having MS), won't have trouble controlling the Kyuubi. It isn't the otherway around.



> Otherwise we would have at least one other example of someone controlling the Kyuubi outside of an inquisitive Mads and his pupil.



This is completely inconsequential. 
Madara is the first guy to awaken MS and EMS. Then he proceeds to find and control Kyuubi. And Kyuubi gets in possession of Konoha right after Madara loses the battle @ VOTE. 
There wasn't an opportunity for another Uchiha to control it, assuming there were candidates, which is simply speculation.


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## Dr. White (Jun 13, 2014)

The Format said:


> How you reach the tip of the mountain doesn't matter when we?re discussing who?s further up the slope. I wouldn't even necessarily agree with this assessment anyway. Itachi had the same tools at his disposal (a brother whose eye he could take, most importantly), but didn?t care to explore the same opportunity.


No you are viewing the argument wrong. Madara is the pinnacle of Uchiha because he reached the furthest prior to Sasuke. He was the overall best uchiha due to him gaining EMS and later on rinnengan. This doesn't mean in every category he is > every Uchiha. Hence why Shisui was better than him. Madara has neither feats or hype in genjutsu to allude to him being better than Itachi.

Itachi was just not going to kill his brother and saw a better future in him. Despite this Itachi has better genjutsu feats and hype than Madara.



> If you're suggesting that benefits such as EMS and Indra's essence don't matter when it comes to genjutsu than I wholeheartedly disagree. That would be akin saying that achieving MS (as in Itachi's case) is the absolute plateau of genjutsu potential; i.e., it stops there. This to me seems beyond silly.


No that isn't at all what I'd be implying. I am saying that MS and EMS give every person who activates them the same amount of base sharingan genjutsu power (it scales upwards with each stage). If EMS sasuke and EMS Madara got into a genjutsu exchange they would both be using EMS base genjutsu. The better genjutsu user would win the fight and if they were even they would tie. Itachi has the best feats, hype, and jutsu in the genjutsu category which isn't coincidence, and only shisui beats him out.




> You want me to believe that among the Uchiha, who are power-hungry and arrogant by nature, not a single one outside of Mads and Obito ever tried to control the Kyuubi with their Sharingan?


No they aren't? they are gifted by nature, but not every uchiha is an asshole. Kagami, Obito, and Shisui all being testaments to this. Also you are purely speculating based off how you feel which has no bearing on the case. There isn't any direct evidence of any other uchiha trying to do so or even suggestion of this.




> First you state that Itachi went out and learned all this shit himself, then mention how if he was under anyone?s tutelage it would have been Shisui?s? which is it? If you?re going to assert that Itachi was taught by the Uchiha clan?s most ?powerful? genjutsu user, then apparently Itachi had a better mentor than Obito in this regard and was very privileged indeed.


I was referring to him going out and gaining knowledge of things like MS, Izanagi, Izanami, etc. Hiruzen said he spent all his time researching the past which makes sense when it comes to his knowledge. Also he was the one who caught Obito slipping into the sacred shrine meaning he had access to it and knew about it. He was under the tutelage of Shisui in skill, but they were more friends than say sensei and student.



> You point towards Mads and Sasuke both having EMS but apparently discount the other things I brought up such as the massive experience and knowledge gap between Mads and Itachi (and Sasuke). Your point about Itachi being superior to EMS Sasuke in genjutsu furthermore isn?t supported when we?re shown things like a generic Sharingan genjutsu having a similar effect to Itachi?s Tsukuyomi. But I?m sure this will be discounted as Itachi merely using his strongest genjutsu even though it?s completely unnecessary and will drain more of his chakra.


Itachi;s MS was shit tier to Itachi's per canon so it obviously isn't simply about gaining a level of sharingan or else they would have been equal. That was them using genjutsu to free eachother. He was an edo chakra was not of an issue. They were letting eachother break eachother out so there was no resistance.

Also if you wanna play that game how about the fact that Itachi's base 3 tomoe genjutsu was able to do way more to Bee than Sasuke's MS genjutsu against him? Both are direct instances in which they used it on the same opponent in combat.



> I don?t see why it?s hard to believe that Kakashi would be very adept in genjutsu defense, given his past encounters with Itachi and his realization midway through Part II that the Masked-Man may have been a Uchiha. It?s also worth noting that Kakashi was using Obito?s other MS and that very well may have played a part in his defense.


He had the sharingan and showed genjutsu feats. Granted he wasn't on Itachi's level just having the sharingan by virtue allows better genjutsu resistance than 95% of other methods. No other MS jutsu would allow such a thing on a fellow sharingan user. Hence why even kakashi could tango with obito. Is kakashi top tier in genjutsu use now too? Because pt. 2 kakashi wouldn't even chance getting in eye range of Itachi.




> Well that is exactly my point. Why can?t you apply the same logic to a situation where only two individuals have ever controlled the Kyuubi with their Sharingan (again, one mentor and one pupil) instead of reaching the conclusion that we just haven?t been shown others with the inclination to do so?


Because we have direct manga flashback evidence of multiple uchiha abusing Izanagi, and hence Izanami had to be created to stop them. No such thing was mentioned with Kyuubi control. It was simply MS is the ticket to such power. Anyone with MS can do it, per canon.




> This is assuming that that is Mads? most powerful or useful genjutsu. Also don?t see why a partner (or even Kia) wouldn't be able to break someone out of Tsukuyomi. If you?re referring to Kakashi?s comment about not being able to cancel the effects of MS genjutsu, I think that has clearly been disproven by now given the numerous examples to the contrary, the one you cited with Mads included.


Why would Madara not use his best genjutsu? It was clear by his follow up attack he was trying to kill Ei. His MS genjutsu couldn't do to Raikage what sasuke's MS did to a chakra sensor/genjutsu user himself. (shi)

Why must you constantly deny manga evidence? Itachi states himself you need a sharingan and uchiha blood to break it. The databook backs this up and adds you must also be >= the caster of Tsukuyomi in genjutsu to break it.

Tsukuyomi happens in an instant hence why Asuma is confused to Kakashi suddenly dropping, kakashi himself notes it is a single moment. Therefore the time is too small for anyone to break someone out of Tsukuyomi because by the time you even move to them they are have gone through 3 says of hell. 

This is backed up by Itachi holding Bee in base 3 tomoe genjutsu for several panels before Hachibi could get to him (tsukuyomi happens in an instant.).

It is also backed up by KCM Naruto (a perfect Jin) telling Killer Bee ( a perfect Jin) that both amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are OHKO's.

either way you slice it Tsukuyomi > all genjutsu bar Koto. 


T





> he point is that Part I Kakashi isn?t exactly the greatest barometer to prove a genjutsu user?s worth. He couldn't even efficiently use his own Sharingan at the time so I don't expect his defense to be stellar either.


What do you mean? He could perfectly use his sharingan he just coulnd't cope with the stamina drain. He could copy jutsu, use pre- cognition, use hyponisis and all that jazz. 



> And if Itachi did pursue those advantage and actually obtain them (whether practical or not given his situation) I?d be more willing to view his proficiency favorably as compared to the other?s I?ve mentioned. But as you yourself point out, he didn?t.


It doesn't matter that he didn't because kishi went out of his way to make Itachi the premiere genjutsu user in this manga. he has the best feats moveset, and hype. You cannot deny this. It's like saying because Raikage fought Hachibi to a draw that his nin taijutsu is better than gates despite the feats and hype difference.


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## Sorin (Jun 14, 2014)

Susano'o without yata surviving a casual bijudama. 

Only in KB folks. 

A futon enhnced by a fodder summon was able to make a hole in one. 

Even if you think Itachi's is stronger, the difference in power between fodder futon and bijudama is like the difference between Udon and Raikagennaut.

Like i said 180 degrees chakra roar, which stopped and launched back 6 charging bijuus is enough to send Itachi flying. A lobbed bijudama near Itachi's vecinity ends this.


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## ueharakk (Jun 14, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> The two instances are different though as in your instant, Bee is using one of his stronger bombs (to injure the juubi) and is being it mid fall. The bjuu's hands are massive and the juubi flicked it at the relatively small Bee sending him and the tbb flying adding to the damage he took.
> 
> In the other instance the bomb was sent downwards and exploded puffing the juubi up and forcing the heat, energy, etc straight into bee's face (as a general rule faces tend to be vital points of a body less durable than other parts unless stated otherwise.), Bee was using his strength to anchor himself to make sure he contained the blast.


I don't understand.  Are you saying the juubi flicking the bijuudama at bee somehow significantly increased the power of the bijuudama?  There's no evidence for that assertion, the juubi flicking the dama at bee could have resulted in a bijuudama with EVEN LESS POWER than bee simply shooting it out of his mouth.  

If you are talking about my distance argument, something that I didn't mention and is a compelling factor would be the fact that bee was higher when he got hit with the V2 juubi's explosion vs his own bijuudama, and yet he still travels far less of a distance as a result of that explosion.  Thus there's a significantly larger gap between the travel distances and power that the hachibi was hit with when both instances are compared.

What's the most damaging thing about a bijuudama, the explosion or the travelling force?  Obviously it's the explosion, considering mokujin can catch bijuudamas yet get completely obliterated when the thing goes off.  Bee obviously took far more damage from his own bijuudama hitting him in the chest than he did from the juubidama exploding in the middle of the juubi.  Thus unless you want to assert that Bee's bijuudama > Juubidama + Bee's bijuudama, then obviously bee got hit with an unknown amount of power that was can't be  anywhere near the power of his own bijuudama let alone the juubi's bijuudama.  Thus, it's an unquantifiable durability feat, which shouldn't mean much in the first place since we already know bee gets severely damaged by getting hit by something like a standard bijuudama.





Dr. White said:


> Hachibi's got great durabilty feats, yet he got trashed by Amaterasu, because the mechanics of the jutsu are different. Even the juubi had to lop off amaterasu before sasuke drowned him in amaterasu.


sure he has great durability feats, but the kyuubi has far greater durability feats.  



Dr. White said:


> Kurama was injured by FRS an put down temporrily by COR though, meaning he can be hurt by conventional means. Amaterasu hurt Bee and put down Cerberus who seconds earlier was eating FRS's from KCM Naruto.


50% Kurama was injured by SM FRS, however he absolutely was not in anyway shape or form 'put down temporarily by COR'.  First off, it was SENPOU chou oodama rasengan, not just COR, there's a massive difference between the two techniques.  Second, it wasn't even a senpou chou oodama rasengan, it was over 25 senpou chou oodama rasengans hitting kurama all at the same time.  Third, that attack did almost nothing to kurama, it didn't even knock him down, he gets blasted maybe a couple hundred meters back and is on his feet, with no visual signs of damage. 

Cereberus didn't 'eat' FRS's from KCM Naruto.  He was hit by one FRS, which caused him enough damage to grow 7 heads and despite the beasts haxed ability to regenerate from attacks it becomes incapable of moving until itachi finishes it off with amaterasu.



Dr. White said:


> Once again even the juubi had to stop Amaterasu by shedding apart of its body to survive.


The juubi was never hit with amaterasu, it was hit by Chou oodama enton rasenshuriken, an enton that's tiers above amaterasu.  If amaterasu would have produced the same results, sasuke wouldn't have even needed naruto's help, he could have simply sniped the beast from a mile away with an amaterasu of the same size considering he's able to use bijuu-sized amaterasus when he was an MS noob.


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## trance (Jun 14, 2014)

Isn't Itachi canonically the best genjutsu user of the Uchiha with the possible exception of Shisui?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 15, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Isn't Itachi canonically the best genjutsu user of the Uchiha with the possible exception of Shisui?


Madara and Obito are superior than Itachi. Madara displayed the same feats Itachi did while on his death bed (even using a limited form of Mugen Tsukuyomi for Obito), while Obito's genjutsu was skilled enough to keep a Perfect Jinchuriki under his control.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 15, 2014)

Not that genjutsu matters when you're nuked


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## Fiiction (Jun 15, 2014)

Damn I forgot that Madara did use a lesser infinte tsukuyomi when he was back in his cave. Via Gedo Mazo.


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## LeBoyka (Jun 15, 2014)

Is this seriously being debated? Itachi gets nuked.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 15, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> The amount of Itachi hate here is retarded. There would've been no reason to suspect the Uchiha of the attack on Konoha if only Madara was capable of controlling kyuubi.



This pretty much


Itachi is above every uchiha, Konoha suspected at the time of the attack. 

Yet ppl act as if itachi, has no chance in he'll to control the fox  NF will never change .


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 15, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> The amount of Itachi hate here is retarded. There would've been no reason to suspect the Uchiha of the attack on Konoha if only Madara was capable of controlling kyuubi.


Its not like seeing the Fox get Sharingan eyes when the control was broken could cast suspicion on the Uchiha, right? iJutsu, the only Uchiha who have accomplished the feat of controlling Kurama were Madara and Obito. Even Minato said controlling Kurama takes a lot of chakra, most people in the modern era are UNABLE to do it. That includes Itachi.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 15, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its not like seeing the Fox get Sharingan eyes when the control was broken could cast suspicion on the Uchiha, right? iJutsu, the only Uchiha who have accomplished the feat of controlling Kurama were Madara and Obito. Even Minato said controlling Kurama takes a lot of chakra, most people in the modern era are UNABLE to do it. That includes Itachi.


If the first part was true - Sarutobi would've explain people your "Only Madara/Obito" theory. And they would believe him - because he has authority, respect and wisdom. Thus it is bullshit.

-snip-. Need I remind you that Obito used _Kuchiyose_? Something that we now know constantly takes chakra for summon to stay in the area of the summoning? It was that part that requires large amounts of chakra. Even Minato clearly said Summon. Itachi simply puts Kurama to sleep. Without any usage of summoning.

So much pure blinding hate in this thread.


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## Fiiction (Jun 15, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Isn't Itachi canonically the best genjutsu user of the Uchiha with the possible exception of Shisui?



Madara is.

Until I see itachi cast a genjutsu on everyone, in the world at once, I might change my mind.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 15, 2014)

alex payne said:


> If the first part was true - Sarutobi would've explain people your "Only Madara/Obito" theory. And they would believe him - because he has authority, respect and wisdom. Thus it is bullshit.
> 
> Second part is also bullshit. Need I remind you that Obito used _Kuchiyose_? Something that we now know constantly takes chakra for summon to stay in the area of the summoning? It was that part that requires large amounts of chakra. Even Minato clearly said Summon. Itachi simply puts Kurama to sleep. Without any usage of summoning.
> 
> So much pure blinding hate in this thread.


The fact that Obito has a contract with Kurama also proves there's more to just _having the Mangekyo_ to control the fox. Itachi has shown ZERO feats or even alluded to a capability to do so. Even when he should have been able to do something (Part I when Naruto began to use Kurama's chakra, Itachi didn't try to shut him down. Part II, again he didn't try to shut him down. When they faced each other in the War Arc, guess what, Itachi had no capability of shutting down Kurama's power). Itachi doesn't have the feats nor capability of doing so.

Show Itachi trying to put Kurama to sleep at all in the manga too.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 15, 2014)

How on earth did this reach nine pages? There is no point debating whether or not Itachi can control Kurama because it is already canon that every Uchiha with MS can do it. The secret of how to do it was written on the Uchiha tablet, which Itachi read. Saying Itachi can't do this isn't reasonable doubt, it's ridiculous denial. There comes a point when trying to debate established canon is just moronic.

People don't even have an argument as to why Itachi would be incapable of doing it. He has shit chakra? No he doesn't, and no argument can be made off that since we don't know how much chakra it takes to control Kurama. People using shitty arguments like Minato saying Madara can't control it for long, and trying to pin that on chakra reserves, when we _know_ he was talking about the Kuchiyose, which itself is confirmed to have a time limit regardless of your chakra reserves. Naruto has the most chakra out of team 7 yet his summon was the first to disappear despite them all being summoned at the same time. Itachi is not summoning it, so that is irrelevant. Arguments like Minato's statement about being incapable of sealing it apply to him only, because Kurama has been sealed in full twice before.

It is certainly debatable whether or not Itachi has a way to put it down for good, but whether or not he can control it isn't.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 15, 2014)

The reason it's gone on so long is because dumbasses like you keep saying Itachi could actually win, eye contact needs to be made and Kurama knows it's an Uchiha. He squishes Susanoo with his paw and then kills him with a second one. There's also a ridiculous gap in firepower and durability here. Anything he does will kill Itachi no matter how casual, but lol nope, lol mind control and lol genjutsu let him win. Do you see how ridiculous that is? 

Probably not


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## Blu-ray (Jun 15, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> *The reason it's gone on so long is because dumbasses like you keep saying Itachi could actually win, eye contact needs to be made and Kurama knows it's an Uchiha.* He squishes Susanoo with his paw and then kills him with a second one. There's also a ridiculous gap in firepower and durability here. Anything he does will kill Itachi no matter how casual, but lol nope, lol mind control and lol genjutsu let him win. Do you see how ridiculous that is?
> 
> Probably not



You're most likely not referring to me, but just in case you are:
Bold: The OP states that Kurama does not know it's an Uchiha until eye contact is made. The OP states that Kurama is in character, and has _never_ avoided eye contact ever. It has no reason to against someone it knows nothing about.

I was not advocating Itachi's loss or victory, just the fact that Itachi can genjutsu the damn thing. In fact I said it was debatable if Itachi could put it down for good or not.

There was an even bigger gap in firepower and durability vs Minato. How did that go? Take that firepower>all bullshit to the OBD. Kurama could effortlessly kill Itachi if he just stood there and did nothing like a moron. Against a Susano'o, a paw will not be enough. Nothing short of a Bijuudama is going to cut it.



Shinryu said:


> Kurama can kill Itachi with a casual claw swing before Itachi can even react.
> 
> Lock this stupidity



Not like the guy reacted to lighting or anything right?


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## Blu-ray (Jun 15, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> So choosing whoever is stronger is an OBD thing while Itachi wank (and other characters) is a NBD thing?



Raw power doesn't determinewho is the stronger of two people, and there was no Itachi wank in my post. If there was, my argument would be Totsuka gg Yata Mirror gg.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 15, 2014)

Mangekyo tames it.

Or Amaterasu burns it and Totsuka seals it away.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 15, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Mangekyo tames it.


Itachi has no feats of it. He's had opportunities but never taken then.


> Or Amaterasu burns it


Amaterasu is tanked or blown off by a chakra roar. Kurama's far more durable than Gyuki.


> and Totsuka seals it away.


Kurama has too much chakra for Totsuka wielded by Itachi to seal it away.


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## Shinryu (Jun 15, 2014)

Madara and Obito have Senju Hax to justify their ability to control Kurama but Itachi has no feats that prove he can mind control a bijuu.

I think you Itachitards are forgetting Kurama could kill Itachi before he can even THINK of doing sharingan mind control.Fucking idiots


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## Blu-ray (Jun 15, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> > Itachi has no feats of it. He's had opportunities but never taken then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 15, 2014)

good for the MS, Kyuubi nukes him


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 15, 2014)

Kai said:


> Some people who have challenged the Itachi wank for so long have forgotten how to give credit where it is due.
> 
> Mangekyo Sharingan controls Kyuubi. That is due credit.


If Itachi's can, why hasn't Itachi controlled Naruto's Kurama then? Why hasn't he forced him out of every initial state and Chakra Mode (especially the latter when he had no other choice) if he could control Kurama?


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## Blu-ray (Jun 15, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If Itachi's can, why hasn't Itachi controlled Naruto's Kurama then? Why hasn't he forced him out of every initial state and Chakra Mode (especially the latter when he had no other choice) if he could control Kurama?



Obito can control Kurama, yet did not force him out of the mode. The chakra is separate from the Kyuubi and stored in a seperate place. He would need to control Naruto for that, not the Bijuu. Kisame already dealt with the initial form. Itachi had no need to, and was already busy talking with Sasuke.


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## Dr. White (Jun 15, 2014)

^He's also ignoring Itachi didn't want to capture Naruto


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## Shinryu (Jun 15, 2014)

> What speed has Kurama even shown that it is capable of killing such a person in an instant, before they can even react? Between the sharingan precog, instant genjutsu, already looking at eyes at start of the match, and insane reaction time, just how?



BM naruto deflected five bijuudamas at point blank range.This is faster than 90% of the attacks in the manga.


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## Dr. White (Jun 15, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> BM naruto deflected five bijuudamas at point blank range.This is faster than 90% of the attacks in the manga.



Lol Kurama doesn't move at those speeds naturally. Although he is fast (because of his size) he is no where near as quick or dexterous as KCM or BM Minato. SM Naruto was able to actually grab the Kyuubi and slam him, and Itachi > SM Naruto in speed. 

Bjuu with Jin >>> Bjuu. Look at the difference between Kurama's performance in VOTE vs BM Naruto's performance vs Juubi.


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## Ersa (Jun 15, 2014)

If you believe Itachi can't control the Kyuubi then you must also believe Rinnegan Obito can't use Human Path or Rikudo Sennin didn't create the moon. They've got no feats and only statements for it, it's pretty simple.


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## Dr. White (Jun 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> If you believe Itachi can't control the Kyuubi then you must also believe Rinnegan Obito can't use Human Path or Rikudo Sennin didn't create the moon. They've got no feats and only statements for it, it's pretty simple.



This example isn't neccesarily true. It was stated that one rinnengan < two. Hence why Madara went after the second and seemingly couldn't use Deva powers without Both.

Although in Edo's Madara's case (pre Jin/coming to life) I would agree with your analogy.


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## Shinryu (Jun 15, 2014)

Just realized Itachi could just make Kurama sit like a little dog(via sharingan mind control) while he Totsukas its soul away.

I concede Itachitards you win this time


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi has no feats of it. He's had opportunities but never taken then.



Its been stated MS controls the Kyuubi. Itachi is a full blooded Uchiha with powerful Genjutsu. Its pure idiocy to believe he can't despite manga facts. Opportunities? You mean opportunities to control Naruto? Cause Naruto isn't the same as Kurama. No point for you there.



> Amaterasu is tanked or blown off by a chakra roar. Kurama's far more durable than Gyuki.


Being more durable than Gyuki, who was wailing in pain from Amaterasu, doesn't mean its going to straight up tank it.  Amaterasu flames had the *Juubi *crying out in pain, yet we have this guy (no surprise) saying that Kurama will straight up tank it.

Please take the wank elsewhere.

A chakra roar blows things in front of Kurama or any Bijuu away, not things on its body. That doesn't even begin to make sense.




> Kurama has too much chakra for Totsuka wielded by Itachi to seal it away.



When you get some proof for that statement then I'll entertain this point.  I won't be surprised if I don't get a reply though....


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 16, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Being more durable than Gyuki, who was wailing in pain from Amaterasu



That was an earlier low showing, he's done far more impressive things like tank his own BB. Amaterasu is over-wanked and entirely useless, Kyuubi wouldn't even be bothered if he let it stick on him for the entire 7 days. Also MS is useless when you can be pawed, roared, BBed, or really anything to death.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 16, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> *That was an earlier low showing*, he's done far more impressive things like tank his own BB. Amaterasu is over-wanked and entirely useless, Kyuubi wouldn't even be bothered if he let it stick on him for the entire 7 days. Also MS is useless when you can be pawed, roared, BBed, or really anything to death.



Your point? It being early in the series doesn't give you the right to invalidate it. I don't know what kind of logic you are trying to use here buddy, but its not going to fly.

1. Amaterasu is a completely different type of an attack from Bijuu Dama.

2. He got his ass knocked out of Bijuu Mode after "tanking" his own Bijuu Dama.

3. Manga already showed him and an entity stronger than him crying out in pain from Amaterasu.

If you are going to reply, don't reply saying Amaterasu is overwanked and useless while contradicting manga fact at the same time. Also, if you are going to reply, read the whole post. Amaterasu isn't to finish Kurama off, its to put him on the ground, immobile so Totsuka can seal him away.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 16, 2014)

and please do tell how it's going to piece him? Also Juubi took almost no damage from that powered up Enton combo move, those are entirely different in scale and it still did jack shit


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 16, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Its been stated MS controls the Kyuubi. Itachi is a full blooded Uchiha with powerful Genjutsu. Its pure idiocy to believe he can't despite manga facts. Opportunities? You mean opportunities to control Naruto? Cause Naruto isn't the same as Kurama. No point for you there.


Sasuke could enter Naruto's mind and force Kurama's power back. But despite everything, Itachi was shown UNABLE to do so when put in the exact same situation.



> Being more durable than Gyuki, who was wailing in pain from Amaterasu, doesn't mean its going to straight up tank it.  Amaterasu flames had the *Juubi *crying out in pain, yet we have this guy (no surprise) saying that Kurama will straight up tank it.
> 
> Please take the wank elsewhere.


Kurama could tank three Futon: Rasenshurikens, 27 Cho Odama Rasengans, and Hashirama's Choju Kebetsu and the Juubi's _V1 Laser Beam_. He's far more durable than Gyuki.

Also, consider the point that Gyuki himself had been replaced by an _Octopus Leg Clone_ and that the entire thing was an _act_? Ignore that at your peril.

And finally, you seriously ignore that Naruto's Cho Odama Rasenshuriken _fucking powered up Amaterasu_ since wind enhances flames? It wasn't Amaterasu's power alone. And not only that, the Juubi was groaning in IRRITATION rather than pain.


> A chakra roar blows things in front of Kurama or any Bijuu away, not things on its body. That doesn't even begin to make sense.


Chakra Roar is an omnidirectional blast of chakra. Anything on or near Kurama will be blown away.





> When you get some proof for that statement then I'll entertain this point.  I won't be surprised if I don't get a reply though....


Since Minato, who has far more chakra than Itachi, could only seal away half of Kurama's power? Itachi's chakra and stamina suck. And the fact that Biju _are not_ what the Totsuka is stated to seal too, only HUMAN BEINGS are capable of being sealed by it.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 16, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> and please do tell how it's going to piece him? Also Juubi took almost no damage from that powered up Enton combo move, those are entirely different in scale and it still did jack shit



Pierce him? Bijuu have no resilience to getting stabbed and cut. I have no reason to believe Totsuka can't pierce Kurama's *FLESH*.

Lol, dafuq? Are we reading the same manga? The Juubi screamed out in pain and had to remove the flame by removing its skin. The fact it went through the trouble of removing the flame only goes to show you it did do something to it.

The difference in scale is absolutely irrelevant considering the difference in scale from the Juubi and the Kyuubi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 16, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Pierce him? Bijuu have no resilience to getting stabbed and cut. I have no reason to believe Totsuka can't pierce Kurama's *FLESH*.


Ignoring Kurama tanked three Futon: Rasenshurikens, which can cut through mountains and bombard the target with millions of tiny needles? Oh here's the thing: Rasenshuriken actually has feats of its power and potential. Totsuka doesn't. Totsuka most likely bounces off his fur.


> Lol, dafuq? Are we reading the same manga? The Juubi screamed out in pain and had to remove the flame by removing its skin. The fact it went through the trouble of removing the flame only goes to show you it did do something to it.


Are you? That was a roar in irritation, not pain. And finally that was an fucking ENHANCED Amaterasu, strange how you're ignoring how the strongest Futon in the series made it stronger.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke could enter Naruto's mind and force Kurama's power back. But despite everything, Itachi was shown UNABLE to do so when put in the exact same situation.[


 
When you can show me when Itachi was UNABLE to do so then I can entertain this nonsense..though it shouldn't be entertained regardless since THIS ISNT WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.

MS gives the ability to control Kurama. Sasuke using his 3-Tomoe Sharingan to suppress a little bit of Kurama's power is not the same. Try again. Try harder.



> Kurama could tank three Futon: Rasenshurikens, 27 Cho Odama Rasengans, and Hashirama's Choju Kebetsu and the Juubi's _V1 Laser Beam_. He's far more durable than Gyuki.


Never said that he wasn't.



> Also, consider the point that Gyuki himself had been replaced by an _Octopus Leg Clone_ and that the entire thing was an _act_? Ignore that at your peril.


Zero proof that it was an act. What was an act, is the fact that B was defeated in the first place. He faked his defeat and ran away.



> And finally, you seriously ignore that Naruto's Cho Odama Rasenshuriken _fucking powered up Amaterasu_ since wind enhances flames? It wasn't Amaterasu's power alone. And not only that, the Juubi was groaning in IRRITATION rather than pain.


Wind enhances Flame by enhancing its scale.The scale here is completely fucking irrelevant when the Juubi is many many many more times durable and larger than Kurama. So something of that scale is not needed to damage it. Something Itachi can produce is sufficient.



> Chakra Roar is an omnidirectional blast of chakra. Anything on or near Kurama will be blown away.



Scans please.





> Since Minato, who has far more chakra than Itachi, could only seal away half of Kurama's power? Itachi's chakra and stamina suck. And the fact that Biju _are not_ what the Totsuka is stated to seal too, only HUMAN BEINGS are capable of being sealed by it.



Again, you are pulling bullshit out of that deep cavity known as your ass.

1. RDS and Totsuka are different processes, so that alone completely shits on your premise here.

2. Where is the proof that Totsuka relies on Itachi's stamina and chakra to seal? 

-snip-


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 16, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> When you can show me when Itachi was UNABLE to do so then I can entertain this nonsense..though it shouldn't be entertained regardless since THIS ISNT WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.


Since Itachi never said he has that capability despite having the Mangekyo. Hell when he talked about control, it was as if he was talking about a myth.

Only TWO Mangekyo users, Obito and Madara, have achieved that feat. Itachi isn't one of them.


> MS gives the ability to control Kurama. Sasuke using his 3-Tomoe Sharingan to suppress a little bit of Kurama's power is not the same. Try again. Try harder.


Then why couldn't Itachi do the exact same feat that Sasuke did when Naruto entered his Initial State back in Part I? Or when they reencountered each other in the Rescue Gaara Arc when Naruto was in his Initial State most of the time? Or why, when Itachi _was forced to attack to the best of his ability as an Edo Tensei_ was he unable to force Naruto from using Kurama's power?

Tell me why? The answer is he couldn't.



> Zero proof that it was an act. What was an act, is the fact that B was defeated in the first place. He faked his defeat and ran away.




Bee threw the fight. The manga and Bee himself explicitly showed that. Sasuke gave him the perfect opportunity to go on vacation. Bee was NEVER DEFEATED.

And it was an act. Bee had already SWITCHED WITH A CLONE, it was the clone, NOT GYUKI burning.



> Wind enhances Flame by enhancing its scale.The scale here is completely fucking irrelevant when the Juubi is many many many more times durable and larger than Kurama. So something of that scale is not needed to damage it. Something Itachi can produce is sufficient.


Wind not only enhances the scale, it makes the Katon stronger. That's what the manga blatantly says. Amaterasu alone wasn't enough to injure the Juubi.




> Scans please.


Omnidirectional blast.






> Again, you are pulling bullshit out of that deep cavity known as your ass.
> 
> 1. RDS and Totsuka are different processes, so that alone completely shits on your premise here.


RDS sealed half of Kurama, which has far more chakra than what Itachi HAS sealed.


> 2. Where is the proof that Totsuka relies on Itachi's stamina and chakra to seal?


Because of fucking common sense? Totsuka is created and maintained by Itachi's chakra since its part of his Susano'o. It has a set limit due to that.


> 3. More bullshit too. Totsuka sealed away Orochimaru and his Hydra. Hydra isn't a human being, its a fucking *snake*. Totsuka was never even stated to only seal human beings, you just pulled that out of your ass since you are apparently unable to construct a manga supported argument.


Yamata no Jutsu is PART OF OROCHIMARU'S BODY. Hell he surfaces from its middle mouth using it. Its nothing more than a deviation of his TRUE FORM which is a giant snake made of many snakes. 

And Totsuka is explicitly said to only be able to seal humans in Databook 3. Not anyone or anything.



> NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI: Susanoo (Mysterious, All-Encompassing Assistance Ability*)
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Offensive; Defensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: none
> 
> ...





> NINJUTSU; Yamata no jutsu (Eight-Branched Hydra technique*)
> User: Orochimaru
> Offensive; Defensive; Supplementary; Rank: S
> 
> ...


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## Jagger (Jun 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If Itachi's can, why hasn't Itachi controlled Naruto's Kurama then? Why hasn't he forced him out of every initial state and Chakra Mode (especially the latter when he had no other choice) if he could control Kurama?


Because he never wanted to? The answer is THAT simple. Itachi never had the need of forcing back the Kyuubi's chakra as he barely meet Naruto through the series.

The first time they did, Kisame sucked away Naruto's chakra by using Samehada, the second time, Naruto barely used any of the beast's chakra. The third time was just a meeting for Itachi to give Naruto the crow with Shisui's eye.

That's it. Itachi died while fighting Sasuke. Also, it's quite different controlling the beast while it is wandering outside than sealed within the person, not to mention back then during Sasuke and Naruto's first meeting in Part II the latter was also trying to suppress the Kyuubi's chakra.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 16, 2014)

Doesn't explain why he wasn't forced to do it as an Edo Tensei though Jagger.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 16, 2014)

I'm curious as to how people in this section agree Pein or Nagato beat Itachi but Kyuubi whom he's outmatched by loses to Itachi 

There's a huge power gap and lolmindcontrol isn't going to cut it


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 17, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Genjutsu compression. That's the only chance itachi has to winning. Imo he can't because he has shit reserves but Itachi fans will never stop.



Of course they won't, you can tell in basically every thread and it's gotten ridiculous


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## Fiiction (Jun 17, 2014)

Krippy said:


> You'd have to pretty dense if you dont believe Itachi simply controls kurama through MS surpression.



he has the genjutsu prowess, but he lacks the reserves.


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## Dr. White (Jun 17, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> he has the genjutsu prowess, but he lacks the reserves.



Like the reserves sasuke had before summoning Manda and forcing him to commit Suicide?

Sasuke had like 5% chakra left. He summoned (which takes a great amount of chakra pending the summon) which left him with less, and still could do so. 

Controlling someone takes <= the amount Hirashin takes. Minato was tired after transporting the kyuubi, no uchiha gets tired while controlling anything and this includes examples involving the kyuubi.

Madara controlled Kyuubi until the very end of the Hashi/Madz fight. You're telling me that Madara continually needed a beast amount of chakra to control the kyuubi?


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 17, 2014)

Problem is there misinterpreting the chakra it takes to "summon" the kyubi vs "controlling" it.


No way in he'll itachi can summon it, but controlling never implied to take a large amount of chakra, unless someone  has scans, or proof?


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## Marsala (Jun 17, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'm curious as to how people in this section agree Pein or Nagato beat Itachi but Kyuubi whom he's outmatched by loses to Itachi
> 
> There's a huge power gap and lolmindcontrol isn't going to cut it



Itachi has very useful abilities that have been shown to be very effective on the Kyuubi and bijuu in general; Nagato only has raw power abilities that struggled to contain the six-tailed form of Naruto.

However, seeing how easily Minato and Kushina were able to deal with the Kyuubi despire being exhausted and dying, it's very likely that Nagato has some sealing or barrier jutsu that are fully capable of restraining and defeating the Kyuubi. We just never saw it.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 18, 2014)

Obito was capable of suppressing Kurama with the regular Sharingan alone - what exactly makes people think that Itachi can't do the very same thing with his Mangekyo Sharingan - especially considering the fact that the Mangekyo Sharingan has been stated, at least a couple of times, to have the power to control the Kyuubi, and especially considering the fact that Itachi is supposed to be a more skilled Genjutsu user than the likes of a 14-year old Obito? And what do 'chakra reserves' have to do with any of this?

The strength of a Genjutsu is independent of the level of chakra put into it. What matters is the skill of the user. In that sense, it's different from Ninjutsu, which can be strengthened with the addition of more chakra (look at Naruto turning a Rasengan into an Odama Rasengan, and that too into a Chou Odama Rasengan - all by adding more chakra to the base sphere). I mean, just look at Sasuke and Itachi. Sasuke's reserves were clearly superior to Itachi's own, yet Danzo and Obito both agreed and maintained that the former's illusions paled in comparison to the latter's in terms of strength, and that too by a fairly wide margin. It's obvious chakra reserves have no influence here.

If Obito and Madara could subjugate Kurama with the base Sharingan, and if Obito's Genjutsu proficiency is clearly inferior to that of Itachi (even fricking Kakashi was able to stalemate Obito in a battle of illusions, and please don't tell me Kakashi can fight Itachi evenly in a Genjutsu battle, that's bullshit and you know it), I don't see Itachi being unable to suppress the kitsune at all, especially considering that it has been stated repeatedly that the Mangekyo Sharingan gives its owner the power to control the monster fox. It's not something unique to those two (Obito and Madara) alone, and never has been. The sooner we can all accept this fact, the better, to be quite honest.

In any case, Itachi should be able to subjugate Kurama with the Mangekyo Sharingan fairly easily, thus essentially ending the fight in Itachi's favor and giving him an easy win. Even if the Sharingan's basic control over Kurama is restricted, Itachi should still be capable of using Izanami and trapping the kitsune in a mental loop that it will not be able to break out of. We've already seen Izanami do work on Kabuto, who seemed to be just as 'evil' as Kurama (prior to him coming to believe in Naruto as the Rikudou's successor, that is), if not more - all by making him acknowledge his inner, positive self - so why should it not work against Kurama too? I don't see Itachi losing anyhow.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 18, 2014)

Cool it with the accusations of 'wanking' and debate like proper, civilized gentlemen, please.

This will be your first and only warning. If I have to delete or snip another post, this thread is getting locked and appropriate punishments will be given.


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> I've done this match before; I just wanted to see where the popular consensus stands on it now.
> 
> Let's just assume that the Kyuubi is on a rampage and Akatsuki sends Itachi to go and handle it.
> 
> ...



I would imagine the greatest genjutsu user of all time can control the Kyuubi 

Not much of a discussion. Tsukuyomi FTW


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## Itachі (Mar 5, 2016)

Itachi can control the Kyubi, to say otherwise is just contradicting Manga statements and what Kishimoto himself has portrayed. 

So much retardation in this thread.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 6, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> I would imagine the greatest genjutsu user of all time can control the Kyuubi
> 
> Not much of a discussion. Tsukuyomi FTW



Is this thread about Shisui?


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## Nikushimi (Mar 6, 2016)

My thread got Edo Tensei'd. 


Itachi rapes the Kyuubi effortlessly, btw.


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## Matty (Mar 6, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Is this thread about Shisui?



Nah breh   we talking itachi.

He's the best genjutsu user of all time. Shisui was a flash in the pan guy with a OHKO. He might've been the most dangerous but itachi was that dude


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## ARGUS (Mar 6, 2016)

Kyuubi just gets tamed into a pet by tsukuyomi 
Not to mention that Tsukuyomi >> 14 yr old obitos genjutsu. So Itachi mid diffs 

If Bijuu controlling is restricted then TBB one shots


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## t0xeus (Mar 6, 2016)

Everybody who read Itachi's novel already knows how this one will end honestly.. 

Not sure that Itachi can capture him alive though, he can't suppress himself that much imo.


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## Itachi san88 (Mar 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Itachi can control the Kyubi, to say otherwise is just contradicting Manga statements and what Kishimoto himself has portrayed.
> 
> So much retardation in this thread.


This lol


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## LightningForce (Mar 6, 2016)

Itachi gets the job done with his 3-tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu.  he makes Kurama his pet.


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2016)

Controlling Kurama doesn't mean defeating it, it means Itachi can avoid being raped by Kyuubi for however long he can control it before going blind and dying from exhaustion. Whether Itachi can defeat Kyuubi or not will always come down to whether Totsuka sword could actually seal Kyuubi, considering the strongest Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu we've seen still couldn't seal the entire beast, I have my doubts that Totsuka sword could. Itachi likely dies after sealing part of the Kyuubi, but failing to seal it entirely.


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## t0xeus (Mar 6, 2016)

What would happen if Yasaka no Magatama hit Kurama's head?


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## Itachі (Mar 6, 2016)

Kyubi probably won't even feel Yasaka Magatama. 



Turrin said:


> Controlling Kurama doesn't mean defeating it, it means Itachi can avoid being raped by Kyuubi for however long he can control it before going blind and dying from exhaustion. Whether Itachi can defeat Kyuubi or not will always come down to whether Totsuka sword could actually seal Kyuubi, considering the strongest Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu we've seen still couldn't seal the entire beast, I have my doubts that Totsuka sword could. Itachi likely dies after sealing part of the Kyuubi, but failing to seal it entirely.



I agree, I'm referring to the poor arguments expressed by the side that don't believe that Itachi can control the Kyubi. It's true about Totsuka, but I don't think it is tied to the user's limitations since I doubt Itachi had enough Chakra to seal Orochimaru as well as do all the other things he did. Totsuka is also considered to be 'ethereal' as well, I'd consider it to be alongside the likes of Shiki Fujin in all honesty.


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I agree, I'm referring to the poor arguments expressed by the side that don't believe that Itachi can control the Kyubi. It's true about Totsuka, but I don't think it is tied to the user's limitations since I doubt Itachi had enough Chakra to seal Orochimaru as well as do all the other things he did. Totsuka is also considered to be 'ethereal' as well, I'd consider it to be alongside the likes of Shiki Fujin in all honesty.


I think Itachi can control him if he lands Tsukuyomi, however Kurama may be more wary now facing an Uchiha and try to at least avoid eye contact, leaving Itachi having to survive massive TBB and city busting chakra roars until he manages to actually land it; something i'm not sure he can do. Though Hiruzen and company did survive for awhile against Kurama so maybe 

Anyway, as far as Totsuka goes, I don't think it's bound to Itachi's chakra, I just think that it's a stretch to expect the blade to seal the entire Kyuubi when both the Hakke Fuuin and Shiki Fuuin were incapable of doing so, two of the strongest Fuuinjutsu in the entire manga from a clan specializing in Fuuinjutsu, and utilized by the Fourth Hokage of all people. And we've never seen Totsuka sword seal anything even remotely close to that. Also not even sure Totsuka can pierce Kurama's extremely durable skin when FRS and Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasenregan could not.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 6, 2016)

Kyubi was fully sealed into Mito and and into Kushina. And Kushina stated that she could drag the Kyubi back into her. This whole "can't seal full Kyubi" isn't really clear.


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## Itachі (Mar 6, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I think Itachi can control him if he lands Tsukuyomi, however Kurama may be more wary now facing an Uchiha and try to at least avoid eye contact, leaving Itachi having to survive massive TBB and city busting chakra roars until he manages to actually land it; something i'm not sure he can do. Though Hiruzen and company did survive for awhile against Kurama so maybe
> 
> Anyway, as far as Totsuka goes, I don't think it's bound to Itachi's chakra, I just think that it's a stretch to expect the blade to seal the entire Kyuubi when both the Hakke Fuuin and Shiki Fuuin were incapable of doing so, two of the strongest Fuuinjutsu in the entire manga from a clan specializing in Fuuinjutsu, and utilized by the Fourth Hokage of all people. And we've never seen Totsuka sword seal anything even remotely close to that. Also not even sure Totsuka can pierce Kurama's extremely durable skin when FRS and Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasenregan could not.



Itachi should be able to control Kyubi with Mangekyo, I don't think he needs Tsukuyomi. I agree with the rest but I think that Itachi should be able to make eye contact with Kyubi, he is a feral beast after all.


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## Bringer (Mar 6, 2016)

Can the Sword of Totsuka even pierce Kyuubi?


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## Itachі (Mar 6, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Can the Sword of Totsuka even pierce Kyuubi?



I don't think it can, no. It would be nice if Kishi expanded more upon Totsuka's physicality.


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