# Tsunade vs Pain (What If)



## StickaStick (Jun 2, 2015)

*Location*: Nuked Konoha 
*Distance*: This, 2nd panel: 
*Knowledge*: Tsunade has mini-Katsuyu providing information like she did for Naruto and is aware of what Pain is capable based on what he did to Konoha; Manga for Pain.
*Mindset*: BL for Tsudande; I.C., but to kill for Pain
*Restrictions*: CST and CT

Tsunade and Pain start at 100% strength unlike how they would have if this fight happened in canon. How well does Tsunade do?


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

KISHI planned on having Tsunade defeat Pain. So if they fought maybe she would have displayed more abilities( Slug Sage Mode?????!!!). But as it stands Tsuande looses to pain. She probably gets soul ripped or subdued by chakra rods( maybe?) as nothing else can put her down with Byakago + 3 years of chakra built up.

Edit: although Byakago Tsuande could easily take out all the paths Sage Jirayia had trouble with + Asura also. Deva is really the main problem. And he's a huge problem.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

I would agree with Likes Boss here.

 No other Path besides Deva Path has the means of defeating Byakugo Tsunade.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

It depends on what condition Tsunade is in. If Tsunade has 3Years of Byakugo she will win against Pain whose restricted from CST/CT. However if she has a reasonable amount of Byakugo like War-Arc levels, she gets owned by the Pain-Rikudo. 



Likes boss said:


> KISHI planned on having Tsunade defeat Pain.


Where was that ever stated? Is there some interview I don't know off?




NarutoX28 said:


> No other Path besides Deva Path has the means of defeating Byakugo Tsunade.


cough....Human-Realm....cough
cough....Naraka Realm....cough


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> cough....Human-Realm....cough
> cough....Naraka Realm....cough



 After careful consideration, you make a fair point. I was referring to the Path's offensive capabilities though obviously Human Path easily allows Pain to bypass Tsunade's durability here.

 And Animal Path arguably, but that's really with Nagato's Chameleon. The other Summons are minor factors here, but could overwhelm her eventually when most of the Summons are out on the field.

 So I concede here.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> After careful consideration, you make a fair point. I was referring to the Path's offensive capabilities though obviously Human Path easily allows Pain to bypass Tsunade's durability here.
> 
> And Animal Path arguably, but that's really with Nagato's Chameleon. The other Summons are minor factors here, but could overwhelm her eventually when most of the Summons are out on the field.
> 
> So I concede here.



I think Asura's Lazer might also kill her if it hits her heard.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I think Asura's Lazer might also kill her if it hits her heard.



 Very true.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 2, 2015)

Katsuyu solos.

IC Pain, as in canon, immediately sends Asura out to kill Tsunade. Whether or not he actually hits her is irrelevant; Byakugo will no-sell the spiked blades in her chest and her counterattack will unmake Asura Realm.

From there Tsunade gains a significant advantage in that Deva Realm is the only real threat. Animal's summons are punched into orbit and Human/Naraka/Preta would die as soon as they got close (remember Tsunade's strength is a mixture of her own natural strength and her chakra-enhanced strength).

I _think_ Deva wins the 1v1 simply because he'd know at this point to keep his distance and Tsunade can't blitz faster than a retreating Deva within the cooldown. Deva would eventually win due to Tsunade's chakra running out...

but of course if Tsunade summons Katsuyu the acid would prove a valuable bait for the cooldown, and/or hit Deva as Tsunade blitzes.


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## N120 (Jun 2, 2015)

Pain wins with little difficulty. 

Katusuyus info only helps if she can use it to counter pain, she can't.

Asura can be revived, and unlike narutos frog fu which extends attacks with nature energy, tsuandes attacks are in the open which allows pain to use counter strategies and put up the perfect defence.


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## LostSelf (Jun 2, 2015)

People say Tsunade was bound to defeat Pain but when i ask why people say that, they never reply 

But it wasn't Pain, it was Deva, at the very best. And hardly still, 1/6 Deva. Because full power Deva is incredibly reflexive and can take her down with CT anytime. Tsunade beating Pain would also mean she would be above Jiraiya, who had to play guerilla tactics in order to beat 3 Paths, talking portrayal wise. But those are excuses, he beat those three.

However, that's an especific scenario and could be depending on wich paths are there. Either way, Pain is above the Sannin individually. Tsunade loses.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

@turrin 

I really can't find the site. But I've seen several different people all claim they did research and found the interview. Apparently Tsuande battles Deva pain, and manages to land a blow. Kishis editors eventually realized this was illogical as Tsuande would obliterate Deva Pain with a punch, and he still wanted him alive for Naruto( guess he forgot about the other pain abilities). But I guess I jumped the gun by saying " defeat pain."


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## N120 (Jun 2, 2015)

Tsunade wasn't going to obliterate pain, just she like didn't 'obliterate' orochimaru which was a death battle. She intended to kill him but couldn't even after landing a clean blow.

There's a reason why people who claim to have 'heard of' such claims can't produce any evidence, and it makes perfect sense IF the rumours were true that kishi got a talking down by the editors.

It makes absolutely no sense to nerf pain and ass pull abilities for tsunade to hype a side character before the big bout with Naruto vs pain.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

N120 said:


> Tsunade is going to obliterate pain, just she didn't 'obliterate' orochimaru which was a death battle.
> 
> There's a reason why people who claim to have 'heard of' such claims can't produce any evidence, and it makes perfect sense IF the rumours were true that kishi got a talking down by the editors.
> 
> It makes absolutely no sense to nerf pain to hype a side character before the big bout with Naruto vs pain.



What are you trying to say ? 

That Kishi is lying? Or that Tsuande can't literally obliterate pain ?


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## N120 (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> What are you trying to say ?
> 
> That Kishi is lying? Or that Tsuande can't literally obliterate pain ?



No, the rumours were just that, rumours, which no one as of yet has been able to provide any evidence for. Someone's been chatting crap and some people fell for it.

 I doubt kishi ever said this, it doesn't make any sense.

And no, tsunade can't obliterate pain.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

N120 said:


> No, the rumours were just that, rumours, which no one as of yet has been able to provide any evidence for. Someone's been chatting crap and some people fell for it.
> 
> I doubt kishi ever said this, it doesn't make any sense.
> 
> And no, tsunade can't obliterate pain.



Tryna to figure out what Tsuande did to you , for you to hate her so much lmao. Tsunade defeating Deva pain isn't that far fetched, and it just goes to show what level Kishi places her. But if you're so defiant on believing Tsuande could lay a single hand on a pain body, then I'm sure I'll come across the interview eventually. 

But pain doesn't beat her that badly... I mean Byakago Tsuande could certainly replicate Sage Jirayias performance.


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## Alkaid (Jun 2, 2015)

IIRC in the interview Kishi stated that Tsunade was supposed to fight Pain, not that she would fight and win. From a story perspective, it's clear that Naruto was supposed to be the one to fight and defeat him.


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## N120 (Jun 2, 2015)

I don't hate tsunade, im disputing the claim.

Byakugo makes tsunade more resilient and it also gives her a boost in attack but her arsenal is still the same. 

And she isn't comparable to SM jiraiya, they had different abilities so it's difficult to see how she can replicate jiraiyas feats.

This is the problem, battles should be won on merit not hearsay/comparison with other charas.

I don't see how the outcome would deviate from what the manga showcased.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @turrin
> 
> I really can't find the site. But I've seen several different people all claim they did research and found the interview. Apparently Tsuande battles Deva pain, and manages to land a blow. Kishis editors eventually realized this was illogical as Tsuande would obliterate Deva Pain with a punch, and he still wanted him alive for Naruto( guess he forgot about the other pain abilities). But I guess I jumped the gun by saying " defeat pain."



I won't say this is 100% not true, but i've read most of Kishi's interviews and I've never seen anything like this. I also know there are dozens of fake interviews. So I have my doubts.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Tsunade seemed rather unsure of herself when she confronted Deva Path despite having a bunch of Anbu on her side. She even took precautions of gather chakra within her feet to resist his gravitational techniques. Even then, Pain had already proven that he was more than capable of destroy Tsunade with a single Shinra Tensei or at least crippling her based on his feats against Bijuu-Sized Summons that were sent flying outside the village. Tsunade has less mass, so she simply gets raped here.

 Kishimoto likely realized how ridiculousi t would be for Base Tsunade to tango with Deva Path. She doesn't even have the speed nor reflexes to even hit Deva Path in CQC.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

^ I'm pretty sure base Naruto was going against Deva in CQC thought I might be wrong. But if Deva is ever forced to parry against Tsuande then he gets killed. I'm not saying Tsunade > Deva. I'm just saying it's better for him to never let Tsuande get close. And there's also a big difference between Deva pain out with the other pains and Focused Deva Pain.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> ^ I'm pretty sure base Naruto was going against Deva in CQC thought I might be wrong. But if Deva is ever forced to parry against Tsuande then he gets killed. I'm not saying Tsunade > Deva. I'm just saying it's better for him to never let Tsuande get close. And there's also a big difference between Deva pain out with the other pains and Focused Deva Pain.



 Managing to react FRS's expansion speed and SM Naruto's kick despite not even anticipating Naruto activating Sage Mode as quickly as he did implies he's reflexive enough to dodge Tsunade's kick.

 Base Naruto tango'ing in CQC with Deva Path doesn't surprise me as much considering Naruto trained specifically in Taijutsu as shown against Pa as to make great use of Naruto's physical augmentations thanks to Sage Mode. Even then, Base Naruto was being overwhelmed and was on the defensive which signifies inferiority in Taijutsu compared to Deva Path in Base. 

 An example of this would be here:

 (3)

 Base Naruto managed to engage in CQC against Sasuke, but was clearly on the defensive which makes sense considering it represents the many implications that leads the readers to believe that Naruto is inferior to Sasuke in Taijutsu and always has been in Part 1.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

I don't really need to go over that as Base Naruto is outright inferior to Tsuande in terms of Taijustu skill. Even IF Deva was outright superior in skill and speed, then the second he's Put on defense( which he was against BASE Naruto) then gets killed. Unlike Naruto, Tsuande can land glancing blows and still do massive damage, evident by the fact that Drunk and Rusty Tsuande can create craters with her finger.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I don't really need to go over that as Base Naruto is outright inferior to Tsuande in terms of Taijustu skill.



 Please do. Naruto was specifically trained in Taijutsu to compliment his augmented stats. Tsunade however, has a more straight-forward fighting style and has never engaged in a drawn out Taijutsu clash. She merely relies on her physical strength to get the job done.



> Even IF Deva was outright superior in skill and speed, then the second he's Put on defense( which he was against BASE Naruto) then gets killed. Unlike Naruto, Tsuande can land glancing blows and still do massive damage, evident by the fact that Drunk and Rusty Tsuande can create craters with her finger.



 Deva Path didn't put up a defense against Base Naruto. He only did that against SM Naruto and didn't anticipate Naruto activating his Senjutsu. Even then, he still managed to react very effectively with only Naruto's enhanced strength overwhelming Deva Path here.

 Tsunade creating craters will be meaningless anyways seeing as how Deva Path can just throw a chakra rod when she does.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 3, 2015)

Naruto was trained _in using Frog Kata's_ while he was in Sage Mode, not in Taijutsu "to compliment his augmented stats".

Tsunade does not have a more straight-forward fighting style than base Naruto who has no Frog Kata's.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Naruto was trained _in using Frog Kata's_ while he was in Sage Mode, not in Taijutsu "to compliment his augmented stats".
> 
> Tsunade does not have a more straight-forward fighting style than base Naruto who has no Frog Kata's.



 I'm aware of that, but we do witness Naruto engaging in Taijutsu Clashes with Pa. It would seem more reasonable that Pa would also want to enhance Naruto's Taijutsu as that is a significant factor by allowing Naruto to make use of his enhanced stats.

 Tsunade certainly does and that was shown against Madara. Against Pain, she will be unable to strike him down and eventually, Nagato will identify her fighting style and capitalize on that. Base Naruto was also seen being forced on the defensive and didn't create any openings for Pain to take advantage of. 

 But either way, we've seen how Base Naruto performed against Deva Path while on the offensive and he effortlessly stabbed both his Kage Bushin while effectively evading FRS after a clever feint pulled off by Naruto.  Of course, the circumstance is different here as Naruto generally uses Kage Bushin to create an opening and pulled off a feint that has worked every single time that he's used it, so being aggressive here was perfectly reasonable. 

 But either way, Deva Path's not getting hit that easily by Tsunade.


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## KamiKira (Jun 3, 2015)

Chibaku tensei ends it, as well as ningendo. Tsunade is no speed monster, Her only advantage is regeneration . Pains share vision so her monster strength punches won't really land most of the time.

I'd say that she'll destroy all the paths except for deva.


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## Veracity (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Please do. Naruto was specifically trained in Taijutsu to compliment his augmented stats. Tsunade however, has a more straight-forward fighting style and has never engaged in a drawn out Taijutsu clash. She merely relies on her physical strength to get the job done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She has a 5 in taijustu and was hyped to be unsurpassed in cqc. She's also the most skilled in taijustu out of all the Sannin. Base Naruto doesn't compete with that at all. In anyway. If Tsuande only relied on her perfect strength stat in the DB, then she wouldn't be hyped in CQC nor would she be one of the rare individuals to have a 5 in taijustu. 

And what do you mean. Base Naruto was parrying attacks from Deva Pain:
alone
Not only is Tsunade better at taijjstu, but pain can't parry her attacks without getting his arms blown off.  So Deva would get his shit wrecked in CQC against someone like Tsunade. 

And I'm not talking about her making craters. Just that she has that level of strength with glancing blows.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> She has a 5 in taijustu and was hyped to be unsurpassed in cqc. She's also the most skilled in taijustu out of all the Sannin. Base Naruto doesn't compete with that at all. In anyway. If Tsuande only relied on her perfect strength stat in the DB, then she wouldn't be hyped in CQC nor would she be one of the rare individuals to have a 5 in taijustu.



 That's the point. Her physical strength has been emphasized in Part 1 to be threatening to the point where simply having higher speed or reflexes isn't enough to ensure proper evasion up close. However, Deva Path doesn't require that. What he does require are the reflexes to avoid Tsunade and cause her to fatigue herself which isn't difficult considering he reacted to FRS and then continued to react to it's expansion speed.



> And what do you mean. Base Naruto was parrying attacks from Deva Pain:
> alone
> Not only is Tsunade better at taijjstu, but pain can't parry her attacks without getting his arms blown off.  So Deva would get his shit wrecked in CQC against someone like Tsunade.



 I apologize. I misunderstood what you tried to convey here.

 Base Naruto was completely overwhelmed. He lost composure and Deva Path was pushing him back. Base Naruto had the reflexes needed to block Deva Path, but Deva Path was overall superior, especially once we consider his capability of reacting to SM Naruto's kick. 

 I never argued the need for Deva Path to parry Tsunade's hits. He's likely aware of Tsunade's hype revolving around her physical strength, so I doubt he'd attempt to do so. In CQC, I do agree that he can't compete, but that has more to do with his inability to counter Tsunade's blows with just normal CQC. However, what he could do is maintain a respectable distance and capitalize on the off-chance that Tsunade's fighting style does get sloppy. Chakra Rods are a big asset to Pain here and can disrupt her flow of chakra or at least throw her off her game for a bit. One wouldn't be enough admittedly, but multiple would.



> And I'm not talking about her making craters. Just that she has that level of strength with glancing blows.



 I agree though Deva Path doesn't need to parry Tsunade's hits. If he does, he's not getting shut down, especially when SM Naruto's own speed was implied not to be enough to land a successful blow on Deva Path before he recovered. Even then, Human Path displayed considerable strength and durability just by tanking a Shunshin Enhanced Kick from SM Jiraiya and then proceeded to negate his Taijutsu, so I don't believe one hit from Tsunade screws Deva Path's chances here.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm aware of that, but we do witness Naruto engaging in Taijutsu Clashes with Pa.



Because that's how you would practice using Frog Kata's while in Sage Mode, and it would seem even more reasonable that a sparring session _intent on teaching Frog Kata's_ would not result in Naruto's overall Taijutsu being dramatically boosted in not even a day's time.



> Tsunade certainly does and that was shown against Madara.



You don't really think _anybody_ is going to bother with anything besides a straightforward approach when they're trying to break through extremely durable Chakra constructs much larger than humans, do you? 

Is Naruto going to do anything differently?



> Base Naruto was also seen being forced on the defensive and didn't create any openings for Pain to take advantage of.



That hurts your assertion more than it helps it.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Because that's how you would practice using Frog Kata's while in Sage Mode, and it would seem even more reasonable that a sparring session _intent on teaching Frog Kata's_ would not result in Naruto's overall Taijutsu being dramatically boosted in not even a day's time.



 Where did you get the idea that he only trained his Taijutsu in a day's worth of time?

 But hell, if he managed to master FRS relatively quickly, I'd imagine improving his Taijutsu in such a short amount of time isn't unimaginable. This is especially once we consider Sasuke suddenly gaining feats of being able to compete with KCM Naruto in terms of speed despite the fact that EMS doesn't enhance speed to begin with. With Naruto's ability to learn rather quickly through experience along with the fact that he's capable of training much longer thanks to Sage Chakra enhancing his recovery and stamina, I see no reason to believe why his Taijutsu couldn't improve considerably.




> You don't really think _anybody_ is going to bother with anything besides a straightforward approach when they're trying to break through extremely durable Chakra constructs much larger than humans, do you?



 Why would you? Tsunade's straight-forward combat style left her coughing up blood despite Byakugou's regeneration. It clearly proved to be useless and Ei implied it. 



> Is Naruto going to do anything differently?



 Yes, considering he doesn't have enhanced regeneration or possibly physical strength on par with Byakugo Tsunade.




> That hurts your assertion more than it helps it.



 Looks like I gave you a freebie. 

 Though honestly, I never debated Deva Path's capabilities of landing a hit on Tsunade in CQC to begin with.


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## Veracity (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That's the point. Her physical strength has been emphasized in Part 1 to be threatening to the point where simply having higher speed or reflexes isn't enough to ensure proper evasion up close. However, Deva Path doesn't require that. What he does require are the reflexes to avoid Tsunade and cause her to fatigue herself which isn't difficult considering he reacted to FRS and then continued to react to it's expansion speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



... She still has a maxed out taijustu score meaning her taijustu skill is unparalleled. The stat doesn't include her strength but purely skill. At the end of the day she still does a whole lot better than Naruto even assuming she didn't have super strength at all, and that's what I'm trying to indicate. But that's not what Deva did via canon... He rushed Naruto and Naruto parried most of his attacks albeit being pushed back. Tsuande with equal strength to base Naruto would have the advantage on Deva. Now add regeneration, extra durabilty, and her super strength and she would murder him. I also don't think he's able to avoid that many hits on Tsuande tbh. Reacting to FRS at around 30m isn't really that impressive Imo. And pain is never ever exhausting 3.5 years of stored up chakra Tsuande in hand to hand. 

Base Naruto wasn't completely overwhelmed. He was holding his own the entire time, entered Sage Mode, and then sent him flying like a stuffed animal.  If Deva keeps his distance and uses chakra rods + ST then he's fine. He just gets fucked up in CQC which was my initial point.

She doesn't need a successful blow. She needs a glancing blow to tear his body apart.

Are you talking about this kick:
However, Gai did recover pretty quickly before healing himself by opening Kyūmon
Or this kick: However, Gai did recover pretty quickly before healing himself by opening Kyūmon
Cause one blinded the path and both incapacitated them. No flicker was ever used . 

Jirayia also hits a lot weaker than Tsuande even in Sage Mode. Ay can through CC2 Jugo with his blows while he doesn't even scratch Madara with his blows. Tsuande obliterates Madara with her punches and also obliterates Ribcage Sussano. She would decimate a pain with a connected hit.


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## Thunder (Jun 3, 2015)

Pain Rikudō wins but Tsunade goes down fighting. 

And yeah, Kishimoto did intend for Tsunade to fight Pain Rikudō as Likes boss said. He mentioned this in an interview, I believe. I don't think Kishimoto planned for Tsunade to _win_, however, as that turn of events would steal Naruto's glory away. Naruto had to be the one to avenge Jiraiya and save the village. It's his manga after all.

But it kinda sucks that Tsunade didn't have a proper fight in Part II until the war arc.


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## Jad (Jun 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Tsunade goes down fighting but Pain Rikudō wins.
> 
> And yeah, Kishimoto did intend for Tsunade to fight Pain Rikudō as Likes boss said. He mentioned it in an interview, I belive. I don't think Kishimoto planned for Tsunade to _win_ that bout, however, as that turn of events would steal Naruto's glory away. Naruto had to be the one to avenge Jiraiya and save the village. It's his manga after all.



can you link me to the interview if you have time. I missed it.



Is it that one? Because people can't tell if it is true or fake....


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## Thunder (Jun 3, 2015)

Jad said:


> can you link me to the interview if you have time. I missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it that one? Because people can't tell if it is true or fake....



I don't have the actual link on hand man, I just remember seeing it a few years ago. But I can tell you I didn't see it in the thread you linked here, though, because I joined after that. 

Could be fake . . .


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## Jad (Jun 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I don't have the actual link on hand man, I just remember seeing it a few years ago. I can tell you it probably wasn't from the post you linked here, though, because I joined after that.
> 
> Could be fake . . .



It's the only one I found that included Tsunade punching a Pain.


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## Thunder (Jun 3, 2015)

I'll try to see if I can find the thread tomorrow. I have to go workout and sleep. It's gonna be a bitch though because the search function is the search function.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Where did you get the idea that he only trained his Taijutsu in a day's worth of time?



The Invasion of Pain was the next morning.

>Sparring with Sage Chakra first brought up _(1)_.
>That night _(2)_.
>Next, _(3)_.



> If he managed to master FRS relatively quickly, I'd imagine improving his Taijutsu in such a short amount of time isn't unimaginable.



Those two things aren't comparable in nature, though.



> Why would you? Tsunade's straight-forward combat style left her coughing up blood despite Byakugou's regeneration. It clearly proved to be useless and Ei implied it.



Ay implied no such thing, first of all.

Second of all, Tsunade isn't limited to that method. You're confusing Tsunade deciding to run through the clones' attacks with her being unable to fight any other way in any other situation. Ay is not, which is why he even brings it up. 

Thirdly, Raikage _isn't_ concerned about her style being straightforward (he is no less straightforward), he's concerned about Tsunade abusing _her stamina_ by forgoing evasion because she can simply regenerate. It's not that she didn't know how to do otherwise, Tsunade just didn't think there was any point in preserving energy in that fight.

There really wasn't either. The clones are sustained by Madara who is an Edo Tensei, meaning stamina contests are out of the question anyway. It's wiser to try dealing as much damage as possible as quick as possible instead. Wasting time trying to employ less straightforward approaches against five pairs of Sharingan behind super durable, regenerating Susano'os is counterproductive. You should just go straight at them if you can.


Also, what do you mean "_despite_ Byakugou's regeneration"? The regeneration doesn't erase the blood from being stabbed, it just replaces it. The blood still has to get out of her somehow- hence the coughing, or it dripping from her mouth when Madara had a clone get sealed in his place and then attacked from the Mokuton branch. Something would be wrong if she _didn't_ cough up blood after being stabbed like that.



> Yes, considering he doesn't have enhanced regeneration or possibly physical strength on par with Byakugo Tsunade.



Okay...can you tell me _what_ he would do differently besides...die...?


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## LostSelf (Jun 3, 2015)

I think Deva Path blocked not because he was forced to block, but because he chose to. Unless Naruto were much better than the combined efforts of Kakashi, Chouza, Choji and the other guy, that needed to team up to abuse the 5s cooldown...

He wouldn't be stupid (i suppose) to block here. The best he can do is keep distance.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The Invasion of Pain was the next morning.
> 
> >Sparring with Sage Chakra first brought up _(1)_.
> >That night _(2)_.
> ...



 I apologize, but since I'm running low on time I will refute this.

 Fair enough, it truly was a day long.

 However, we have seen countless times that specific training can enhance one's reflexes and speed despite not being entirely focused on Taijutsu. 

 For example: We witness this during the Wave Arc while Kakashi teaches the Genin the basics of chakra control and forces them to grasp the basic concept of it. During their training, they weren't shown to have been focused on Taijutsu at all, merely chakra control and that in itself led to Naruto and Sasuke being shown to be far more reflexive as Sasuke competed with Haku and surpassed him in Taijutsu and Speed and managed to defeat Zabuza's clones that destroyed the Genin with ease earlier.

 This is exactly the same because Naruto's entire training was centered around chakra control as he had to manipulate Natural Energy with his own Chakra in order to use Senjutsu and even had to maintain that level of chakra control. The fact that only a few users in the manga have managed to accomplish this is an incredible chakra control feat for Naruto. Furthermore, Naruto pushed the boundaries of chakra control when he further enhanced his FRS. His incomplete version managed to surpass the 4th's capabilities as Kakashi conceded to being incapable of doing this even with Minato's capabilities implying Minato couldn't even accomplish this feat with the Kage Bushin method and he himself has exceptional chakra control. Naruto further surpassed this by mastering his FRS, combining it with the fruits of his Senjutsu, managed to throw such a dense amount of chakra and managed to manipulate it in a way where it expanded as he desired.

 Simply put, having to train in Taijutsu didn't mean he himself didn't improve in Taijutsu, but he certainly did train in Taijutsu and needed to improve it to compliment his Sage Mode's advantages.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2015)

The biggest issue Tsunade has here is that she can't land hits on any of the Paths using conventional taijutsu, because of their shared vision. To land hits she will be relying on more unorthodox strategies. 

One of these strategies will be using Katsuyu's _Daibunretsu_, which should allow Katsuyu to mitigate the paths' evasive abilities. Once the slug divisions _latch themselves_ onto the Paths, they can start melting their bodies with acid in CQC. While most of the Six Paths can either remove Katsuyu from their person, or avoid her altogether by staying out of CQC (Animal Path), for Naraka and Human who are both CQC fighters and are otherwise defenceless, Zesshi Nensan would seem to be their downfall. Even though Katsuyu isn't fast, her sheer numbers should allow her to latch onto Pein successively, especially since all six paths could be focusing their efforts on Tsunade and neglecting Katsuyu's actions. 

We should also factor in Nagato's limited knowledge of Tsunade. He knows that she is a skilled medic, that Katsuyu can divide into smaller slugs and _possibly_ that she has super strength .. but that's about the height of it. He is unaware of her resilience to damage, of her durability, of her regeneration or huge chakra levels. Her use of playing possum tactics and resilience could earn her wins over Deva and Asura Path. When Deva hits her with a Shinra Tensei and goes to _finish her off_, she could very well _retaliate unexpectedly_. Alternatively, if he tries to do to Tsunade what _he did to Kakashi_ with Banshou Ten'in, she likewise could _surprise him_. This also applies to any CQC Asura Path tries to launch at Tsunade by itself. If Asura attacks Tsunade _like it did in canon_, while she still has chakra for Byakugou, it gets smashed into pieces while its machinery is still wedged inside her chest.

Animal Path's summons can be dealt with by Katsuyu's Zesshi Nensan, and if Tsunade lands a Rashinshou on Cerberus, then Animal's offence becomes even more underwhelming (I doubt she have the chance to do that in a 6v1, though). Killing Animal Path itself will be pretty difficult unless she manages to kill all the other Paths, destroying its shared vision, and then engages it directly in CQC. 

All in all, with CST restricted and almost full knowledge on his abilities, I think Tsunade could potentially win this match. She isn't going to tire out at any point in the match because of her huge chakra reserves, so she can unleash her arsenal of attacks very liberally. The only way I see Tsunade losing in the end is if Pein stabs her multiple times with chakra rods, messes up her chakra control, and then mitigates her Byakugou. In that case, she dies very quickly. This could easily happen when Deva uses Bansho Ten'in on her, though I'm not sure if one rod alone would be enough to completely end her ability to heal?​​


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2015)

You had me onboard until you said Tsunade was actually going to beat 100% Pain.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I apologize, but since I'm running low on time I will refute this.
> 
> Fair enough, it truly was a day long.
> 
> ...



Practicing his Chakra control helped Sasuke's Shunshin _(1)_, _(2)_. 

That's Sasuke actually using the training on something relevant to speed- he trained his ability to manipulate his Chakra in his feet and then when he fought did just that in order to give himself a burst of speed. 

That's not the same as what you're saying happened with Naruto. Naruto learning how to effectively employ ghost punches while in Sage Mode doesn't somehow translate into a significant improvement for a base Naruto who cannot even use said ghost punches. That's more like pitting Sasuke against Haku and then restricting Shunshin............wouldn't be pretty.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You had me onboard until you said Tsunade was actually going to beat 100% Pain.



CST and CT are both restricted, so he isn't 100%.​​


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2015)

"100%" as in _not_ starting off like he did against Sage Naruto with two of the most powerful paths out of commission. 

Even after fighting through the entire military of Konoha, Nagato still had enough juice to handle and _capture_ SM Nardo (who - when starting off in that form - is quite decisively stronger than Tsunade in his own right), despite having to get past his army of super frogs.

Pain is just on an entirely different level. She's not winning, especially when those playing possum tactics lose their effectiveness after one time and Pain can bring his bodies back to life. Nagato's not going to let her score a lucky kill on Naraka realm, and she doesn't exactly have the knowledge to single that one out anyway.

Katsuyu is outclassed by Pain's, what is it..._ten_ summons? Tendo can also clean godslug up with one decent sized gravity wave if he decides he doesn't want it to split n' spread.


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## StickaStick (Jun 3, 2015)

KamiKira said:


> Chibaku tensei ends it, as well as ningendo. Tsunade is no speed monster, Her only advantage is regeneration . Pains share vision so her monster strength punches won't really land most of the time.
> 
> I'd say that she'll destroy all the paths except for deva.


CT is restricted.

I also doubt that Human Realm will be much of a threat when apparently Nagato thought so little of its capabilities in actual combat that he sacrificed it to protect Animal Realm.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

Kishi planned on having Tsunade fight, not defeat, Pain.

All Six Paths... Not even Jiraiya could take on all six head on. Pain will rape. BT on Tsunade followed by whatever Pain wants to do till Human Realm comes in will be more than enough.

Tsunade's not like SM Jiraiya, so shared vision (3x the amount Jiraiya that made him retreat) will be hell for her. Since she lacks sensing, she's very susceptible to something like this or this. Arguably Katsuyu could help, but we know Shima was a Sage and had Senjutsu... so we can't generalise that much. Unless you want to argue that Hashirama's SM was from the slugs. 

Either way I think Tsunade will be stomped. Ninjutsu and Taijutsu (of her calibre) aren't really options to defeat Pain.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> "100%" as in _not_ starting off like he did against Sage Naruto with two of the most powerful paths out of commission.
> 
> Even after fighting through the entire military of Konoha, Nagato still had enough juice to handle and _capture_ SM Nardo (who - when starting off in that form - is quite decisively stronger than Tsunade in his own right), despite having to get past his army of super frogs.



If we're talking stamina, Tsunade has just under three years of chakra stored up and impressive base reserves to boot. With that amount of chakra Sakura was powering Kaguya's dimension travel techniques, distributing chakra through Katsuyu to the entire alliance, throwing punches, and still had chakra to spare. Tsunade's performance against Madara was done with just a few weeks of storage, to put things into perspective. 

I agree that SM Naruto > Tsunade by a notable margin, as does Pein, but not with his two greatest techniques restricted (disadvantaged Pein) while she has full knowledge (advantaged Tsunade). Also, for the record, Pein captured Naruto by _man-handling him_ after his Sage Mode ended and he let his guard down in an emotional rage. [1] This is neither possible nor relevant in a fight with Tsunade. Moreover, had Naruto's SM kept up and his actions not been so reckless, Pein would not have won without resorting to CT or, had he had access to it, CST.



> Pain is just on an entirely different level. She's not winning, especially when those playing possum tactics lose their effectiveness after one time and Pain can bring his bodies back to life. Nagato's not going to let her score a lucky kill on Naraka realm, and she doesn't exactly have the knowledge to single that one out anyway.



Granted, if a playing possum tactic is used even once then it would lose all effectiveness afterwards. However, what makes you think that it will certainly fail the first time? If she's less than a meter away on the ground and unexpectedly launches at him, he could very well be caught off guard. Deva Path is very reflexive but he isn't immune to shock, nor is any other path for that matter. 

Tsunade knows that one of the Paths is able to revive the others, even if she doesn't know what he looks like immediately, she'll know sooner or later. She'll work out who Animal Path is as soon as it summons, and she already knows what Deva, Asura and Preta Path look like and what their abilities are. That leaves her with Human and Naraka, who smaller Katsuyu divisions can blindside and latch onto when they're attacking Tsunade. She knows its one of the two, so I'm not so sure she even needs to be able to know which one's which.



> Katsuyu is outclassed by Pain's, what is it..._ten_ summons? Tendo can also clean godslug up with one decent sized gravity wave if he decides he doesn't want it to split n' spread.



Good luck to him, Katsuyu tanked CST.. so anything smaller will tickle her. Even if he launched her a billion miles into the distance, Tsunade can use minimal chakra to call her back onto the battlefield. As for Animal Path's summons, they're all smaller than just 5% Katsuyu, once she divides into 2 or three slightly smaller slugs, she's able to fight off a few summons at once. It isn't like Animal Path ever summons/is able to summon any more than that at any one time anyway.​​


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## Bonly (Jun 3, 2015)

Pain would put up a decent fight but he'll lose more times then not once the Queen of solo, the Itachi of summonings, the Great Katsuyu-Sama is on the battle field.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 3, 2015)

any 2 paths defeat Tsunade w/ middling difficulty.

They have shared vision to boost their reflex, zombie immunity to ranshinsho/ scalpel & their chakra rods disrupt byakugou, when they puncture her.


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## LostSelf (Jun 3, 2015)

Surviving the destruction of CST =/= Tanking a direct CST. Who knows if the clones hit with the blast survived it.


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## KamiKira (Jun 3, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> CT is restricted.
> 
> I also doubt that Human Realm will be much of a threat when apparently Nagato thought so little of its capabilities in actual combat that he sacrificed it to protect Animal Realm.



Just because he needed to sacrifice it at some point and in certain situation , doesn't mean that its useless. Bansho tenin followed by ningendo would honestly end it. And taijusu is useless since pain can just stab her with black rods  which will immoblize her


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## Mercurial (Jun 3, 2015)

Deva Path easily solos. With being totally worn out he dodged a point blank Rasenshuriken thrown by SM Naruto that also combo'd it with surprise-Kage Bunshin appearing right at Deva's flanks to distract him (he also negged the clones, just before dodging the Rasenshuriken). Deva dodges Tsunade's punch with ease and impales her with the black rod that makes her unable to mold correctly her chakra, then impales her again in the head and she dies.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Surviving the destruction of CST =/= Tanking a direct CST. Who knows if the clones hit with the blast survived it.



We never saw any dead Katsuyu clones - it was indicated that she successfully surrounded everyone in Konoha. Although, even the destruction of CST > the regular shinra tensei in damage, given how quickly it moved, how heavy it was and how much force it had behind it.​​


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## KamiKira (Jun 3, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> We never saw any dead Katsuyu clones - it was indicated that she successfully surrounded everyone in Konoha. Although, even the destruction of CST > the regular shinra tensei in damage, given how quickly it moved, how heavy it was and how much force it had behind it.​​



The closer you are to gravity the more pressures will effect you, Cho Shinra Tensei was used in the middle of the air and regenerated there, therefore its effect was less. katsyu won't die by it, though it'll turn it back to its liquid state. Black rod is another good option to stop katsuyu from regenerating chakra.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2015)

If this is war arc tsunade fresh from the start, Asura gets blasted into million pieces by a single punch. 
Then she runs around and tries to punch other paths but they kite her like a friend and once Deva's powers return, they make a short work of her.


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## LostSelf (Jun 3, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> We never saw any dead Katsuyu clones - it was indicated that she successfully surrounded everyone in Konoha. Although, even the destruction of CST > the regular shinra tensei in damage, given how quickly it moved, how heavy it was and how much force it had behind it.​​



We never did, but that doesn't mean there weren't. I still don't believe CST hit it directly, wich is why i say "who knows".

It's not. A direct hit by Shinra Tensei, at least, powerful enough like the one that blasted bunta would do more damage than just the expansion of CST. Tsunade survived it with only being affected by the chakra she spent. And i don't see Tsunade taking like that a direct hit of a Boss sized ST.

The aftermath was dangerous, not trying to diminish Katsuyu's effort and feat. But not as powerful as the the blast directly.


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sakura



No.

Jk, but I still don't know how valid her feats were given that she was supposed to be running out of chakra before Jubi Madara even appeared. 

Tsunade needed to pump all of her power into Katusyu to cushion CST, and she went comatose afterwards. Sakura could power a technique that tires Kaguya, who's chakra reserves stand above even the Jubi's. 

If Tsunade has as much juice as War Arc Sakura, she throws half of it into the slug and it takes out Pain, Nagato, and the rest of the country with one acid blast. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I agree that SM Naruto > Tsunade by a notable margin, as does Pein, but not with his two greatest techniques restricted (disadvantaged Pein) while she has full knowledge (advantaged Tsunade).



Pain took care of Naruto while holding back, and he didn't need village-scale nukes to do it. Pain also managed to beat Jiraiya without those jutsu, and while Jiraiya had less knowledge than Tsunade does, Jiraiya had a favorable location and Nagato had a lack of knowledge himself which directly lead to Jiraiya ascending to Sage Mode. 



> Also, for the record, Pein captured Naruto by _man-handling him_ after his Sage Mode ended and he let his guard down in an emotional rage. [1] This is neither possible nor relevant in a fight with Tsunade.



Naruto's Sage Mode didn't go away just 'cause. Pain had to outlast it..._twice._ Pain had to do that starting two paths down to boot. 

Pain captured (not killed) a super prepared Sage Nardo with significant disadvantages. On the other hand, Tsunade is weaker than that Naruto, Pain has no disadvantages, and Pain can attempt to kill her.

There is an obvious level gap between the Sannin and Pain, and the conditions nor the match up are skewed enough in Tsunade's favor for her to win. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> However, what makes you think that it will certainly fail the first time?



I didn't say it would fail.

I said it would probably work, and Pain would go ahead and revive the body that she smashed while she's busy dealing with the others.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade knows that one of the Paths is able to revive the others, even if she doesn't know what he looks like immediately, she'll know sooner or later.



She'll _eventually_ find out what every path does, but she's not going to do so before Pain finds out she can regenerate. Since the only way "playing dead" is going work is if Pain is unaware of Creation Rebirth, odds are that she won't yet know which of the paths bring the dead back...meaning she won't be getting the body that Nagato least wants her to get.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Good luck to him, Katsuyu tanked CST.. so anything smaller will tickle her. Even if he launched her a billion miles into the distance, Tsunade can use minimal chakra to call her back onto the battlefield.



Didn't Katusyu need, like, _all_ of Tsunade's entire 3-year reserve to tank CST?

Though that's irrelevant, because Pain is just getting it out of way momentarily so that they can swarm Tsunade, nuke her, and pin her with black rods. Pain's not going to just let her re-summon the slug. If that doesn't work, Tendo can just pull her into explosive spam repeatedly until she's messed up enough for Human to walk over and soul rip.

Pain has ways around regeneration.


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## Bonly (Jun 3, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sakura



No.

Jk, but I still don't know how valid her feats were given that she was supposed to be running out of chakra before Jubi Madara even appeared.

Tsunade needed to pump all of her power into Katusyu to cushion CST, and she went comatose afterwards. Sakura could power a technique that tires Kaguya, who's chakra reserves stand above even the Jubi's.

If Tsunade has as much juice as War Arc Sakura, she throws half of it into the slug and it takes out Pain, Nagato, and the rest of the country with one acid blast. 



> I agree that SM Naruto > Tsunade by a notable margin, as does Pein, but not with his two greatest techniques restricted (disadvantaged Pein) while she has full knowledge (advantaged Tsunade).



Pain took care of Naruto while holding back, and he didn't need village-scale nukes to do it. Pain also managed to beat Jiraiya without those jutsu, and while Jiraiya had less knowledge than Tsunade does, Jiraiya had a favorable location and Nagato had a lack of knowledge himself which directly lead to Jiraiya ascending to Sage Mode. 



> Also, for the record, Pein captured Naruto by _man-handling him_ after his Sage Mode ended and he let his guard down in an emotional rage. [1] This is neither possible nor relevant in a fight with Tsunade.



Naruto's Sage Mode didn't go away just 'cause. Pain had to outlast it...twice. Pain had to do that starting two paths down to boot.

Pain captured (not killed) a super prepared Sage Nardo with significant disadvantages. On the other hand, Tsunade is weaker than that Naruto, Pain has no disadvantages, and Pain can attempt to kill her.

There is an obvious level gap between the Sannin and Pain, and the conditions nor the match up are skewed enough in Tsunade's favor for her to win. 



> However, what makes you think that it will certainly fail the first time?



I didn't say it would fail.

I said it would probably work, and Pain would go ahead and revive the body that she smashed while she's busy dealing with the others.



> Tsunade knows that one of the Paths is able to revive the others, even if she doesn't know what he looks like immediately, she'll know sooner or later.



She'll eventually find out what every path does, but she's not going to do so before Pain finds out she can regenerate. Since the only way "playing dead" is going work is if Pain is unaware of Creation Rebirth, odds are that she won't yet know which of the paths bring the dead back...meaning she won't be getting the body that Nagato least wants her to get.




> Good luck to him, Katsuyu tanked CST.. so anything smaller will tickle her. Even if he launched her a billion miles into the distance, Tsunade can use minimal chakra to call her back onto the battlefield.



Didn't Katusyu need, like, all of Tsunade's entire 3-year reserve to tank CST?

Though that's irrelevant, because Pain is just getting it out of way momentarily so that they can swarm Tsunade, nuke her, and pin her with black rods. Pain's not going to just let her re-summon the slug. If that doesn't work, Tendo can just pull her into explosive spam repeatedly until she's messed up enough for Human to walk over and soul rip.

Pain has ways around regeneration.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 6, 2015)

Bonly said:


> No.







> Jk, but I still don't know how valid her feats were given that she was supposed to be running out of chakra before Jubi Madara even appeared.



She was running out of her base chakra, but she hadn't released her Byakugou no In yet.



> Tsunade needed to pump all of her power into Katusyu to cushion CST, and she went comatose afterwards. Sakura could power a technique that tires Kaguya, who's chakra reserves stand above even the Jubi's.



Technically speaking, Sakura wasn't powering Kaguya's technique on the same scale that Kaguya was. While Kaguya completely transformed the dimension and surroundings around her several times over, Sakura was only able to create small portals into the other dimensions. Not to say that it didn't still use up an enormous amount of chakra, but then so did transferring chakra to thousands of people all at once during Pein's invasion. 

Tsunade chakra pumped Onoki's jinton cube to be more than a hundred times its normal size, and that was after she had used significant amounts of chakra healing herself/attacking Madara. This was only with a few weeks of chakra storage. It only stands to reason that with 3 years of chakra built up, her feats would be even more ridiculous. We never got to see the extent of her chakra build up during the Pein arc because she gave it all away to _heal the villagers_. After all, even with Katsuyu's protection, people still received injuries. [1] [2]




> If Tsunade has as much juice as War Arc Sakura, she throws half of it into the slug and it takes out Pain, Nagato, and the rest of the country with one acid blast.



I'm guessing that if Katsuyu tried to acid blast Pein, Preta Path would just absorb it.



> Pain took care of Naruto while holding back, and he didn't need village-scale nukes to do it.



I don't think Pein was holding back, though I'd like to know why you think that he was.



> Pain also managed to beat Jiraiya without those jutsu, and while Jiraiya had less knowledge than Tsunade does, Jiraiya had a favorable location and Nagato had a lack of knowledge himself which directly lead to Jiraiya ascending to Sage Mode.



Nagato had a heck of a lot more knowledge on Jiraiya than he does of Tsunade, though. Even if he didn't know of Jiraiya's Sage Mode, he knew of just about everything else in his arsenal, which caused him a lot of problems in the earlier stages of the match. Furthermore, the reason Jiraiya ultimately lost against Pein was because he was critically injured in Asura Path's ambush. He didn't know about the other three Paths, and if he did, he would have lasted longer. Pein outwardly admitted that if Jiraiya had known more about his Rikudou powers, he might have actually won.



> Naruto's Sage Mode didn't go away just 'cause. Pain had to outlast it...twice. Pain had to do that starting two paths down to boot.



Back then Naruto's Sage Mode only lasted a few minutes. When Pein outlasted it, he did so using attacks that, for reasons I've already explained, Tsunade would be equally capable of dealing with without Sage techniques [1] [2] [3] [4]. She may not overcome his techniques or defeat his Paths as quickly as Naruto did, and she might sustain more injuries, but for a stamina monster with regeneration, that isn't really a problem. 



> Pain captured (not killed) a super prepared Sage Nardo with significant disadvantages. On the other hand, Tsunade is weaker than that Naruto, Pain has no disadvantages, and Pain can attempt to kill her.



Pein has a significant disadvantage - his opponent has full knowledge on all of his abilities, while he has virtually none. And yes, while Tsunade is weaker than Sage Naruto, the difference in their power isn't _huge_, and as far as battle longevity and stamina goes, Tsunade's chakra reserves allow her to last longer against Pein than Naruto could remain in Sage Mode. 



> There is an obvious level gap between the Sannin and Pain, and the conditions nor the match up are skewed enough in Tsunade's favor for her to win.



There is an obvious power gap, but I do think the conditions are in Tsunade's favor enough for her to potentially pull a win.



> I didn't say it would fail.
> 
> I said it would probably work, and Pain would go ahead and revive the body that she smashed while she's busy dealing with the others.



It depends on the circumstances. Unlike against SM Naruto, all six of Pein's bodies are at full power - what if she gets hit by a fatal attack, plays dead and then _all six bodies_ attack her all at once? That gives Katsuyu ample time to latch onto bodies and start acid blasting them. That may not be a problem for the ones who can break away with brute force or absorb her acid, but for relatively defenceless Paths like Naraka it would be. It also gives Tsunade an even greater set-up to attack unexpectedly. 



> She'll eventually find out what every path does, but she's not going to do so before Pain finds out she can regenerate. Since the only way "playing dead" is going work is if Pain is unaware of Creation Rebirth, odds are that she won't yet know which of the paths bring the dead back...meaning she won't be getting the body that Nagato least wants her to get.



She already knows who 4/6 of the Paths are - Naraka and possibly Human are the only ones that she doesn't. Although if Katsuyu attacks all of them at once using Daibunretsu, she doesn't need to know which one does what.




> Didn't Katusyu need, like, all of Tsunade's entire 3-year reserve to tank CST?



Nah, Tsunade used that chakra to heal the villagers.



> Though that's irrelevant, because Pain is just getting it out of way momentarily so that they can swarm Tsunade, nuke her, and pin her with black rods. Pain's not going to just let her re-summon the slug. If that doesn't work, Tendo can just pull her into explosive spam repeatedly until she's messed up enough for Human to walk over and soul rip.
> 
> Pain has ways around regeneration.



Actually, getting Katsuyu out of the way really isn't that simple - Daibunretsu means she can be in all directions at once. Unless Deva Path uses a massive S/T that also hits the other Paths, he can't get rid of that many of them. And anyway, Tsunade can recall Katsuyu to the battlefield _pretty effortlessly_, I doubt any of the Paths could blitz her before she re-summons. Explosives aren't an option either unless Pein wants to kill his other Paths too.​​


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## lightning0769 (Jun 6, 2015)

_Heaven Kick of_*PEIN*


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## Forcer (Jun 6, 2015)

Just to clarify one thing that was already clarified

Tsunade is supposed to one shot Deva (mentions Deva only) and then pass out so Naruto steps in.

Then just like mecha path Deva would come back, but it would look like Deva wasn't 100% when facing Naruto so Kishi didn't do it.

I have the pic of the interview on my other computer, its a magazine, if i remember it right. I'll post when i can on my account


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## StickaStick (Jun 6, 2015)

KamiKira said:


> Just because he needed to sacrifice it at some point and in certain situation , doesn't mean that its useless. Bansho tenin followed by ningendo would honestly end it. And taijusu is useless since pain can just stab her with black rods  which will immoblize her


There are ways of getting around ST + Soul Rip GG and with Tsunade's chakra stores and chakra control even more so. Outside of that one combination, Human Path will be relatively useless seeing as any attempt it makes to engage Tsunade in CQC to attempt to soul rip will end in Human Path getting crushed. 

Taijutsu is not useless because the black rods can be avoided and even destroyed with the appropriate level of skill and strength as SM Naruto demonstrated--a level of skill and strength that Tsunade surely can replicate. 

A more serious issue would be getting around Deva's 5-sec interval to actually engage him in CQC in the first place, and once should does again figuring out a way to land a serious blow before she gets pushed back. Although if she gets that close in the first place while Deva is on his cool-down I don't see why she couldn't FCD a massive Katsuyu portion over his head instead.


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## KamiKira (Jun 6, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> There are ways of getting around ST + Soul Rip GG and with Tsunade's chakra stores and chakra control even more so. Outside of that one combination, Human Path will be relatively useless seeing as any attempt it makes to engage Tsunade in CQC to attempt to soul rip will end in Human Path getting crushed.


It's not one vs one, deva would use bansho tenin to get her close and make ashura path immoblize her . And I think that you're forgetting that tsunade's punches may be strong enough to one shot but not that fast, the eye link between then is good enough to not let them have any damage, and as I said restoration is always an option for pain,


> Taijutsu is not useless because the black rods can be avoided and even destroyed with the appropriate level of skill and strength as SM Naruto demonstrated--a level of skill and strength that Tsunade surely can replicate.


No. You can't touch them unless you have senjustu ......... tsunade showed no speed feats that can come close to kakashi or sm naruto. 
A more serious issue would be getting around Deva's 5-sec interval to actually engage him in 





> CQC in the first place, and once should does again figuring out a way to land a serious blow before she gets pushed back. Although if she gets that close in the first place while Deva is on his cool-down I don't see why she couldn't FCD a massive Katsuyu portion over his head instead.


Katsuyu itself would be immobilized by the black rods, those can either control your body or immoblize it as seen when pain placed it in naruto's body and he couldn't move. Katsuyu showed nothing that implies that it does have senjutsu. And again there's always the other summons, if deva pain rides the bird summoning tsuande will have no way to reach it, he can just place naraka path on the top of the birf summoning and restore the oaths everytime that she destroys it .


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## Veracity (Jun 6, 2015)

Pain arc Kakashi wasn't that fast at all...


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## FlamingRain (Jun 6, 2015)

Who said you have to have Senjutsu to touch those black rods?

Kakashi grabbed one to to stop it from hitting Iruka and was able to perform Raikiri after getting stabbed with one.


I'm pretty sure base Naruto being _nailed to the ground by the rods_ had a lot to do with him being unable to move.


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## Rocky (Jun 6, 2015)

Makes you wonder why Hashirama told Sasuke not to touch them.


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## KamiKira (Jun 6, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Pain arc Kakashi wasn't that fast at all...


A mankeyo sharingan user who is one of the strongest characters in terms of taijustu .....you tell me....


FlamingRain said:


> Who said you have to have Senjutsu to touch those black rods?
> 
> Kakashi grabbed one to to stop it from hitting Iruka and was able to perform Raikiri after getting stabbed with one.



Actually it's my mistake, the rod have to be inside you in order to be immoblized and kakashi actually was immbolized for a second when the rod had barley even made its way through his jacket.
I'll need the Nine tails chakra to fight Sasuke.
_pretty effortlessly_


> I'm pretty sure base Naruto being _nailed to the ground by the rods_ had a lot to do with him being unable to move.


It was mainly due the black rods being inside him.
_pretty effortlessly_

So yeah, I'm kinda still right, they have to be inside you  in order for them to affect you in the first place.


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## Veracity (Jun 6, 2015)

having the MS by default doesn't make you quick. Not only was he the least adapt at using the MS than everyone else in the manga at that point, but his taijustu feats and hype is inferior to tsuande.


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## KamiKira (Jun 6, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> having the MS by default doesn't make you quick. Not only was he the least adapt at using the MS than everyone else in the manga at that point


It does, it boosts your reaction speed, that's like one of the Earliest  facts about sharingan bro. And yes  he was sammping his MS ability aka kamui during the war.



> but his taijustu feats and hype is inferior to tsuande


No. He fought stronger opponents in taijustu and did well, people like pain,kakazu,hidan and  obito were all better at taijustu than anyone who tsunade have ever faced excpet for madara who clearly fought her plus 4 other kage shinboi. Not to mention that he was comfortably reacting to jinchuriki with 5 and even 6 tails forums.


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## StickaStick (Jun 6, 2015)

KamiKira said:


> It's not one vs one, deva would use bansho tenin to get her close and make ashura path immoblize her .


How is Ashura Path going to immobilize her?

You're correct it's not going to be 1-v-1 under most situations; however, if Deva does attempt to BT + [insert other Path here] he's opening up the prospect that Tsunade will just crush that Path once it becomes a CQC situation as none of them can hold a candle to here in that respect. Furthermore, and damage that might be done in the process, against say an Ashura Path, will be healed via her Byakugō.

But again, I wouldn't worry too much about Tsunade being forced into any encounters by BT since she has options of not allowing such to happen, such as: focusing chakra into her feet to give herself a better foundation, or summoning a portion of Katsuyu to break LoS. 



> And I think that you're forgetting that tsunade's punches may be strong enough to one shot but not that fast, the eye link between then is good enough to not let them have any damage, and as I said restoration is always an option for pain,


I agree that linked vision will be problem, although not for her as much as for others. Shared vision allows Pain to ward against blindside attempts but even just guarding against her strength is a risky proposition. 



> No. You can't touch them unless you have senjustu ......... tsunade showed no speed feats that can come close to kakashi or sm naruto.


She can touch them--she just can't allow herself to be pieced by them. And even them it would take multiple rods to completely immobilize her as Sakura demonstrated.

Neither Kakashi nor SM Naruto really demonstrated any amazing speed feats against Pain outside of Naruto's blitz into an Ashura Path who was trying to blitz Tsunade. In fact, most of Naruto's chances at getting in close to the Paths IIRC came off of cleverly devised feints, not speed.   



> Katsuyu itself would be immobilized by the black rods, those can either control your body or immoblize it as seen when pain placed it in naruto's body and he couldn't move. Katsuyu showed nothing that implies that it does have senjutsu.


I think this depends on how large a portion of Katsuyu is being effected. If it's a massive portion then it would probably take a considerable amounts of black rods to even make her feel anything. Even so, there are ways around this if it becomes a problem such as Tsunade de-summoning and re-summoning Katsuyu. I would also guess that Katsuyu herself could liquify whatever portion is being effected by the black rod and remove it that way.



> And again there's always the other summons, if deva pain rides the bird summoning tsuande will have no way to reach it, he can just place naraka path on the top of the birf summoning and restore the oaths everytime that she destroys it .


Katsuyu can spray acid at any flying summons if any of the Paths want to play hard to get. Tsunade herself can also jump pretty high and even use Katsuyu as a launching pad to reach even greater heights.


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

KamiKira said:


> It does, it boosts your reaction speed, that's like one of the Earliest  facts about sharingan bro. And yes  he was sammping his MS ability aka kamui during the war.
> 
> 
> No. He fought stronger opponents in taijustu and did well, people like pain,kakazu,hidan and  obito were all better at taijustu than anyone who tsunade have ever faced excpet for madara who clearly fought her plus 4 other kage shinboi. Not to mention that he was comfortably reacting to jinchuriki with 5 and even 6 tails forums.



Boosting your reaction speed doesn't = being fast automatically. Yes Kakashi is fast, but he isn't faster by Tsunade simply by virtue of having the Sharingan. It has to so with his natural raw speed and reactions. PTS Sasuke is inferior to any mid Kage in terms of speed and reactions. Having the Sharingan doesn't necessarily mean everything.

Except none of the people you named are even close to Tsuande in terms of raw taijustu skill. Not only does Tsuande have a perfect score,  but she was hyped to be unsurpassed in taijustu. She also a Hokage-Sannin leveled opponent that specializes in taijustu. She is much better than anyone Kakashi has faced before. 

And anyway, war arc Kakashi and Pain arc Kakashi are different. Kakashis reactions and sharingan were much more refined by the war arc.


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## KamiKira (Jun 7, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> How is Ashura Path going to immobilize her?


Grab her shoulder just like he did to naruto in their fight, Or have preta path hold her just like naruto as he absorbs her chakra.


> You're correct it's not going to be 1-v-1 under most situations; however, if Deva does attempt to BT + [insert other Path here] he's opening up the prospect that Tsunade will just crush that Path once it becomes a CQC situation as none of them can hold a candle to here in that respect. Furthermore, and damage that might be done in the process, against say an Ashura Path, will be healed via her Byakugō


.
Once you're affected by bansho tenin you lose your stability, meaning that in order to punch, you need momentum but in almost zero gravity, you can't really do that, and  that's exactly what banshi tenin does to the victim. 


> But again, I wouldn't worry too much about Tsunade being forced into any encounters by BT since she has options of not allowing such to happen, such as: focusing chakra into her feet to give herself a better foundation, or summoning a portion of Katsuyu to break LoS.


I understand the first one and it's actually pretty possible but how would the situation go?

So yeah I'll just counter the first for now, In order have a better "foundation" you need a surface to stand on and let the chakra follow from your leg towards the ground to give a better stance,  but in this case bansho tenin rises your whole body up and it pulls you toward the user. And tsunade has no intel on it, meaning she can't really do it while excepting it to happen.......


> I agree that linked vision will be problem, although not for her as much as for others. Shared vision allows Pain to ward against blindside attempts but even just guarding against her strength is a risky proposition


. 
 Agreed, hence why I said she would destroy all the paths before losing. One punch is all it takes to destroy 1 pain, but in the other hand 1 Stab is all takes for pain to immobilize her.


> She can touch them--she just can't allow herself to be pieced by them. And even them it would take multiple rods to completely immobilize her as Sakura demonstrated.


When did sakura say such thing If I may ask you? And we seen what happened to naruto when he was stabbed by it so it fairly clear that one stabb is enough to disturb the chakra inside your body rather than actually immobilizing  it . Either way, it would fatal .


> Neither Kakashi nor SM Naruto really demonstrated any amazing speed feats against Pain outside of Naruto's blitz into an Ashura Path who was trying to blitz Tsunade. In fact, most of Naruto's chances at getting in close to the Paths IIRC came off of cleverly devised feints, not speed.


I'll need the Nine tails chakra to fight Sasuke.
Dodged this in point blank

Dodging a close range kick from a rinnegan user who was able to keep up with 7 tails kyuubi and even a frog kata user


And the whole battle with obito also proves it. As for sm naruto all I have to say is this
Link removed



> I think this depends on how large a portion of Katsuyu is being effected. If it's a massive portion then it would probably take a considerable amounts of black rods to even make her feel anything. Even so, there are ways around this if it becomes a problem such as Tsunade de-summoning and re-summoning Katsuyu. I would also guess that Katsuyu herself could liquify whatever portion is being effected by the black rod and remove it that way.


Liquidfiiding herself requires chakra, which black rod can disturb. But one thing it can do is to divide into smalls pieces to troll pain lol



> Katsuyu can spray acid at any flying summons if any of the Paths want to play hard to get. Tsunade herself can also jump pretty high and even use Katsuyu as a launching pad to reach even greater heights.


The acid won't really reach it, and please tell me where would the other paths be when she's doing all that? she's obviously  busy with them.


Likes boss said:


> Boosting your reaction speed doesn't = being fast automatically. Yes Kakashi is fast, but he isn't faster by Tsunade simply by virtue of having the Sharingan. It has to so with his natural raw speed and reactions. PTS Sasuke is inferior to any mid Kage in terms of speed and reactions. Having the Sharingan doesn't necessarily mean everything.


It boosts your reaction speed as I said meaning you'll except attack that you normally wouldn't that alone would make you "faster" of you look up the definition . Not to mention that easily makes you read your opponet movement and even dodge them successfully, It's true that you wouldn't be bale to dodge if you're slow even if you see it coming but in kakashi's case that different, seeing how he's one the fastest base characters.

And I think that I don't need to bring  the databook numbers, right? 


> Except none of the people you named are even close to Tsuande in terms of raw taijustu skill. Not only does Tsuande have a perfect score,  but she was hyped to be unsurpassed in taijustu. She also a Hokage-Sannin leveled opponent that specializes in taijustu. She is much better than anyone Kakashi has faced before.


So you're saying that she's better than obito,kakazu, pain and most of all the the V6 bijuu jincuriki ????WTF? I might need some feats that suppourts that bro.


> And anyway, war arc Kakashi and Pain arc Kakashi are different. Kakashis reactions and sharingan were much more refined by the war arc.


The time period wasn't really that long between the two arcs. And please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Rocky (Jun 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> She also a Hokage-Sannin leveled opponent that specializes in taijustu. She is much better than anyone Kakashi has faced before.



Oh? Who does Kakashi repeatedly spar with again?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Makes you wonder why Hashirama told Sasuke not to touch them.



Deva's tiny rods couldn't disperse an Ameterasu Susano arrow, or control a juubi jinchuuriki.  Nor could his big ones.

Oh and Naruto did get much better taijutsu.  His stance changed and everything.  But I wouldn't say he's quite as good as Tsunade in base, since frog kata's require sage mode to unleash their full potential.  Something to note, base Naruto at that time had 3.5 in speed as well.


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## Sans (Jun 7, 2015)

Don't ignore me on Skype for this thread.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 7, 2015)

I was ignoring you for this video too.


*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]G24WB1AjHSc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Sans (Jun 7, 2015)

Behind each revelation, there is only more being ignored.


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## Jad (Jun 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> .....  but she was hyped to be unsurpassed in taijustu.



Made up....That's never been hyped of her at all. Kishimoto has said nothing about her Taijutsu in a Databook or the Manga itself. Not one thing, not a comment, not a whisper of her ability in Taijutsu as being a Master.

The fact that Kishimoto uses the words "Master of Taijutsu" not once, but twice in the Databook for two different characters, shows that his not one to not use the term for others. Confuses me when people say Tsunade is close to Gai's level in Taijutsu like in the Base Gai vs. Tsunade thread. Than I see these type of comments.

Doesn't seem fair that Kishimoto shows all these maneuvers and skills Gai has in the manga, hype, comments and all, but somehow because Tsunade has a 5 in Taijutsu [even with relatively very linear attacks] she is on par or close to equaling him.


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## Sans (Jun 7, 2015)

That is a pretty good video.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 7, 2015)

Jad said:


> Made up....That's never been hyped of her at all. Kishimoto has said nothing about her Taijutsu in a Databook or the Manga itself. Not one thing, not a comment, not a whisper of her ability in Taijutsu as being a Master.
> 
> The fact that Kishimoto uses the words "Master of Taijutsu" not once, but twice in the Databook for two different characters, shows that his not one to not use the term for others. Confuses me when people say Tsunade is close to Gai's level in Taijutsu like in the Base Gai vs. Tsunade thread. Than I see these type of comments.
> 
> Doesn't seem fair that Kishimoto shows all these maneuvers and skills Gai has in the manga, hype, comments and all, but somehow because Tsunade has a 5 in Taijutsu [even with relatively very linear attacks] she is on par or close to equaling him.



Life's not fair.

Kishi usually only highlights someone's best point.  Ei's strong and durable, but we really only ever hear about his speed.  Ei's dad is fast and strong too, but we only ever hear about his durability.  Tobirama has a lot of chakra, but we only ever hear about his speed and inventiveness.  Itachi's tier 5 fast, but we only hear about his insight and jutsu execution speed, genjutsu, ect.  Well, he gets hyped a lot.  

You yourself have complained over and over again that people don't recognize Guy as being durable, just because it's barely if ever even mentioned in the manga, but that doesn't mean he isn't sturdy.  It's just not as strong a point as his taijutsu skill and speed, so that's what Kishi raves about.  Kishi doesn't hand out 5's willy nilly, and unless you want to think he does, then you really shouldn't complain about it in just this case.



> Made up....



Also that's not made up.  Don't climate change Tsunade.


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## N120 (Jun 7, 2015)

Tsuande probably gets a five in tai due to her explosive power, not skill. In terms of skill she was pretty even with kabuto who outmanoeuvred her on many occasions.

Deva pain fought Naruto and Kakashi and kept up to their level.


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

@jad
Nobody is comparing Tsuandes skill to Gai's calm down lol.

Jirayia said her CQC ability was unsurpassed, yes that was said btw.  Also a 5/5 would mean she's good right ? Now mix that with the fact that all the Sannin are abosulte masters in the the field they specialize in. Tsuande is CQC and medical Ninjustu so...

@ the poster above
No. Just no. Her chakra enhanced punches would go under her perfect Ninjustu stat, and her raw strength goes under her perfect strength stat. Her perfect taijustu stat, however, is contributed solely to her skill.


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## N120 (Jun 7, 2015)

Did she fight kabuto? Did she beat him? Was it one sided? So yes. Her taijutsu is comparable to kabutos who was seen as being on par with Kakashi.

Not to forget, these sanins were defeated hanzou who himself was defeated by pain. The hype helps pain more than it does tsunade.

Manga > databook

The only thing she has in her arsenal to defeat pain is her chakra punches, nothing suggests she can get close enough to land one, he's no fodder.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 7, 2015)

N120 said:


> Tsuande probably gets a five in tai due to her explosive power, not skill.





Power goes into the power category, which is separate from the Taijutsu category that measures knowledge and proficiency (so, skill, not physicality).



> In terms of skill she was pretty even with kabuto who outmanoeuvred her on many occasions.





That was a Tsunade who'd been out of practice (and shape) for about two decades (as long as Kabuto had even been alive), and Kabuto had to take off running in the opposite direction at match start only to engage her after she'd tired out once he'd amped himself up with ninja steroids, yet still only ever managed to touch her after she, in her blind rage, threw a back-kick that left her airborne (i.e.- unable to dodge) for a moment.



> Not to forget, these sanins were defeated hanzou who himself was defeated by pain.



And then Jiraiya decided he'd go solo the same guy who he had just learned solo'd Hanzō.

We've seen Hanzō in action and we've seen the Sannin in action. There is no reason for us to assume that those striplings Hanzō beat up were even remotely comparable to the Sannin as we now know them.


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## N120 (Jun 7, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> *Spoiler*: _What the categories symbolize_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats a battle, it's not going to be pub brawl. Kabuto evading her attacks and wearing her out shows his skill and her limitations.




> And then Jiraiya decided he'd go solo the same guy who he had just learned solo'd Hanzō.
> 
> We've seen Hanzō in action and we've seen the Sannin in action. There is no reason for us to assume that those striplings Hanzō beat up were even remotely comparable to the Sannin as we now know them.



Similarly pain defeated j-man, hanzou, His guards and country, he took out konoha single handedly and outranked every other akatsuki member. In terms of hype, abilities, combat record pain is undisputed. Mustering the courage to fight pain =/= ability to beat pain.

Tsuande needs to land a chakra punch to down deva, that's not happening with what we have seen of her. For all the hype she gets, pain is a higher tier opponent.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 7, 2015)

N120 said:


> Thats a battle, it's not going to be pub brawl. Kabuto evading her attacks and wearing her out shows his skill and her limitations.



Kabuto running away (and most likely not even being her only target while doing that) despite his Jutsu only requiring a tap to negate her enormous strength and hinder her movement, then enhancing himself with the Hyōrōgan before ever approaching a tired out, out of shape, rusty Tsunade seeing red and still being forced to resort to abusing Tsunade's fear of blood is all a big concession that his close-combat skills are no match for hers.

_That_ Tsunade can't even be compared to Part 2 Tsunade just like drugged Jiraiya and necrotic arms Orochimaru can't be compared to their Part 2 versions. So the idea that he's even with her is laughable.



> Similarly pain defeated j-man, hanzou, his guards and country.....



I don't really care, because I'm not saying Tsunade is as strong as Pain. I'm just saying Hanzō having defeated the Sannin before they were even legendary has nothing to do with anything concerning them now.


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## Ersa (Jun 7, 2015)

Tsunade's pretty good at taijutsu yeah.

Pain sends her to the moon.


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

N120 said:


> Did she fight kabuto? Did she beat him? Was it one sided? So yes. Her taijutsu is comparable to kabutos who was seen as being on par with Kakashi.
> 
> Not to forget, these sanins were defeated hanzou who himself was defeated by pain. The hype helps pain more than it does tsunade.
> 
> ...



Not only was that part 1 rusty Tsuande, but Kabuto felt it necessary to not only exhaust Tsuande, but pop soldier pill. And even then he was not only blizted, but needed to use chakra scalpels and Doton techniques to keep up.

That was also pre-phobia Tsuande who was weaker than post phobia Tsuande... As soon as she broke the phobia, she goes on to summon Katsuyu, blitz Oro, and blitz Manda. Her speed jumped. And even that isn't relatable at all to War Arc healthy Tsuande.

The Sannin were Jounin when they received their names, and Hanzo was at his very highest in power. Pain defeated a weakened Hanzo, and furthermore all of pain doesn't equal just Deva. And even further, you seem to not understand match ups well. I doubt prime Hanzo was taijustu raping Jounin tsunade.

I never mentioned her defeating all of pain. I just proved what was wrong in your post.


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## N120 (Jun 7, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Kabuto running away (and most likely not even being her only target while doing that) despite his Jutsu only requiring a tap to negate her enormous strength and hinder her movement, then enhancing himself with the Hyōrōgan before ever approaching a tired out, out of shape, rusty Tsunade seeing red and still being forced to resort to abusing Tsunade's fear of blood is all a big concession that his close-combat skills are no match for hers.



It's hardly a consession, kabuto used her weaknesses against her. It's battle strategy. 

He knows she has chakra enhanced punches, he knows how to avoid them and counter them and he did that skillfully. 



> _That_ Tsunade can't even be compared to Part 2 Tsunade just like drugged Jiraiya and necrotic arms Orochimaru can't be compared to their Part 2 versions. So the idea that he's even with her is laughable.



Same can be said about part 2 sage kabuto. He was a prodigy when he fought her back then but now he's a top tier opponent. 

But regardless of which tsunade or jiraiya you bring up, they both lost to pain. 



> I don't really care, because I'm not saying Tsunade is as strong as Pain. I'm just saying Hanzō having defeated the Sannin before they were even legendary has nothing to do with anything concerning them now.



Neither do I, I was countering the tsuande hype provided by someone as an argument. any hype tsunade gets isn't going to match pains. In anycase, hanzou made them legendary, it's the fact that they survived and impressed him that he named them the sanin as an honorary title. 

In anycase, the fact remains. Wether you believe she is capable of matching deva at cqc or not, she hasn't shown anything that would allow her to hit him.

There nothing to suggest that if she fought him another 5 times that it'd change anything. We'll see a repeat of the manga scenario each time.


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## Jad (Jun 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @jad
> Nobody is comparing Tsuandes skill to Gai's calm down lol.
> 
> Jirayia said her CQC ability was unsurpassed, yes that was said btw.  Also a 5/5 would mean she's good right ? .


First, can you link me the scan of Jiraiya saying her Taijutsu is unsurpassed?

Also I don't believe Tsunade is even close to Gai, let alone near his skill. People keep saying "Taijutsu does not equal power, speed etc..." That means Gai's Taijutsu truly is unsurpassed because Madara said so. But that makes sense thought if Gai could come up and develop such Taijutsu techniques as Night Guy and Evening Elephant, as well as ones like Morning Peacock and Hirudora. 

Tsunade has one technique that I know of in Taijutsu, and that's her kick to the ground she used once. I find it hard for her to be called Taijutsu master when she has one move under her belt.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Life's not fair.
> 
> Kishi usually only highlights someone's best point.  Ei's strong and durable, but we really only ever hear about his speed.  Ei's dad is fast and strong too, but we only ever hear about his durability.  Tobirama has a lot of chakra, but we only ever hear about his speed and inventiveness.  Itachi's tier 5 fast, but we only hear about his insight and jutsu execution speed, genjutsu, ect.  Well, he gets hyped a lot.
> 
> ...



You don't read enough of my posts.

Gai has had his Durability mentioned in the Databook, liking it to Steel. His reflexes, speed and strength have also been commented on in the Databook and manga a number of times. All things that make him vastly more superior to Tsunade in Taijutsu, not her equal or someone she hovers close to in skill. 

Tsunade's best qualities have been discussed as well, strength and medical technique. Not her Taijutsu ability. If Tsunade was close to a guy whose skill in Taijutsu was called the best by Madara, I'm sure something of a comment would have been made by Kishimoto. Like Rock Lee has. - being called a Master in the Databook twice. I don't believe Kishimoto ever intended to make Tsunade as skillful as Gai, since her ability lies purely on her strength and regeneration in terms of combat.


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2015)

Holy shit. Gai popped out of nowhere! Here i come!

I guess i saw that kind of hype that Tsunade has. But that hype is wrong. Jiraiya probably didn't even know Gai. Nor his abilities to a full extent. But Gai's taijutsu superiority far eclipses anybody's. And has been hyped by Juubi Madara himself.

Even in base, Gai showed clear superiority when he engaged Obito in a brief skirmish. Skirmish longer than the one Minato, who was quick enough to flick a Kunai before V2 Ei flicked him lost in two panels and KCM Naruto with clones lost as well, again, in two panels.

To be more precise about MInato and avoid a shitstorm. I said "lost" because he was forced to use ninjutsu, and, if he fought Obito with only taijutsu, he would've been two-panelled, and twice.

Gai did what those two couldn't, and that's last a a good deal of time against Obito and in a more desfavorable position. His skills in base are above her's. If you add gates, you can put all of the Taijutsu masters, in a taijutsu fight against Gated Gai and he murders them. 

And, to point something to the thread: I don't think Tsunade can give Pain that much troubles (Not saying he will fodderstomp her either), nor i don't think Katsuyu (She keeps being The Forbidden One) either, Because Cerberus, sooner or later, can take her down. Both can divide, however, Cerberus can do it without losing it's size. Katsuyu can't.


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

@jad
Why are you so quick to jump on Gai ? Literally can you point out where I said that Tsuande is close to Gai in taijustu ability ? She's not even IMO. But that doesn't take away from the fact that she's better than Kakashi or kakuzu. Gai just happens to be FAR better then them.

And the scan is tricky because you need the VIZ translation for my statement to hold merit. But I'll ask someone i guess .


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## FlamingRain (Jun 7, 2015)

It's the outflow of bleakwinter, The Pirate on Wheels, and Godaime Tsunade putting the fear of Tsunade into him.



LostSelf said:


> Because Cerberus, sooner or later, can take her down. Both can divide, however, Cerberus can do it without losing it's size. Katsuyu can't.



Katsuyu spits acid in cerberus's face and it dies.


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

tsunade takes out a few paths , especially asura rushing in and probably preta 
then gets some black rods in her  making killer bee jealous that they got to her first

Preta is essentially a victim against tsunade as is asura both will try coming in close and die miserably. Human and especially naraka will know to keep away especially after what they would have witnessed with preta and asura


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 7, 2015)

That is the slowest ANBU in the whole wide world.

Oh, I never answered the topic question.  Tsunade at that point in the manga probably takes out several Pains, and then gets beaten somehow.  

I don't know how any of the current Sannin, or heck, even other kage like Ei and Onoki fair, or are _supposed_ to fair, because I'm not sure how to reconcile the power inflation and later narrative, with the tighter narrative of the earlier parts.  I also don't know what would have happened if the planned fight between Tsunade and Pain happened.  If Tsunade used Byako, and showed comparable ability to vs Madara, then obviously that was her limit all along, but if she fought without it, and then revealed it later, then I'd be forced to say she leveled up between then and now, and current her could beat more paths or whatever depending on how the fight ended.  Kishi likes to have people reveal new stuff during their "cool" moments, and generally be more impressive because that sells manga, but sometimes not because he sucks.  Then there's always the chance the fight would have ended with Pain using CST like he did in the manga, and forcing Tsunade to heal the village rendering her unable to fight, like with what happened to Gaara vs Deidara.  That's all speculation I'm even less keen to form an opinion on than the first hazy issue.

Final thought:  Tsunade looks better without her diamond.  But then again that makes it hard to tell it's Tsunade...


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It's the outflow of bleakwinter, The Pirate on Wheels, and Godaime Tsunade putting the fear of Tsunade into him.



No Gai fan fears Tsunade or any other character .



> Katsuyu spits acid in cerberus's face and it dies.



I don't think it's gonna die. That would be comparing it to Amaterasu (Or FRS), with no basis to hold to. Cerberus can divide anytime Pain wishes to.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 7, 2015)

Cerberus can only multiply when hit by certain attacks.

It's divided in response to being struck by Gamaken's barbed sasumata, Gamabunta's blade, and potentially FRS which is basically a Rasengan that bursts into a flurry of tremendous amounts of miniscule needles. But it didn't split when hit by a giant Rasengan or Amaterasu.

What's the difference between those first three attacks and the other two? The latter two aren't penetrative.

Katsuyu's acid shouldn't cause it to split up.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 7, 2015)

Yeah, there's no red lights on the acid train, it just keeps burning. Cerberus can divide if it wishes, but its divisions will still be suffering from corrosive damage.​​


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Cerberus can only multiply when hit by certain attacks.
> 
> It's divided in response to being struck by Gamaken's barbed sasumata, Gamabunta's blade, and potentially FRS which is basically a Rasengan that bursts into a flurry of tremendous amounts of miniscule needles. But it didn't split when hit by a giant Rasengan or Amaterasu.
> 
> ...



The dog multiplies because of a ninjutsu. And there haven't been only penetrative attacks. As shown here:

*Spoiler*: __ 









And that's a blunt force attack. I heard that's a ninjutsu of Pain, that makes it multiply. Otherwise it was plot.

Amaterasu killed the dog because it spreaded. Nothing says Katsuyu's acid is potent enough to hold it down, or big enough to cover it completely.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> The dog multiplies because of a ninjutsu. And there haven't been only penetrative attacks. As shown here:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Unless the Cerberus manages to wash the acid off of its skin, its going to keep burning through it. It can divide after its hit, but when it merges back together the lasting damage of Zesshi Nensan is still there. It isn't like that ninjutsu the ANBU used.​​


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## FlamingRain (Jun 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> The dog multiplies because of a ninjutsu.



Yes, the Ninjutsu (amplification summoning) is what applies the condition of multiplication to the dog when the dog is summoned. The condition apparently being receiving certain types of damage.



> And there haven't been only penetrative attacks. As shown here:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



The dog was being hit with Fūton and Raiton attacks....which tend to be penetrative _(1)_.


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## StickaStick (Jun 7, 2015)

KamiKira said:


> Grab her shoulder just like he did to naruto in their fight, Or have preta path hold her just like naruto as he absorbs her chakra.


The problem for Naruto in the instance your referencing was not so much that Preta Path was absorbing his chakra, but that he was absorbing his sage chakra which took away the strength buff he would otherwise have from being in SM. Before that Naruto seemed quite confident that he would be able to break Preta's grip. It's only after he started to lose his natural energy--and thus his immense strength--that Naruto was completely subdued.

Tsunade in contrast doesn't have to worry about her strength being absorbed away because she's already very strong in base to begin with. Furthermore, with her seal activated she gains an immense boast in chakra that would probably take Preta quite a while to fully absorb away given the chakra intensive feats she displayed once it was activated during the War-Arc. All-in-all if Preta, or another Path, attempts to put her into a full-nelson like Preta did Naruto she'll probably just tear it's arms off since the Paths themselves don't seem to be that strong, relatively speaking. 
.


> Once you're affected by bansho tenin you lose your stability, meaning that in order to punch, you need momentum but in almost zero gravity, you can't really do that, and  that's exactly what banshi tenin does to the victim.


Fortunately for Tsunade her chakra control is among the very best (possibly even stated to be the best, or second behind Sakura, I can't remember) so if she needs to I don't see why she can't simply focus the necessary amount of chakra into her feet to allow her to keep balance against Pain's gravitational techniques. Granted this may not be a complete guard against it as Deva (Nagato) himself can always amplify the gravitational pull to his liking and thus Tsunade may end up being dragged anyway, even if means ripping the floor from under her, so I'll give you that. 

However, again, if Pain does decide to go this route there is always Katsuyu who can summoned to break LoS. And what I mean by this is if Pain attempts to pull Tsunade in she can summon a portion of Katsuyu in front the view(s) of whoever she's being pulled towards. Even a summon of something minuscule like, say, 1% would be more than enough to distort to view of to whoever she's being pulled and provide a cushioning against any combo attack that might be coming her way.



> So yeah I'll just counter the first for now, In order have a better "foundation" you need a surface to stand on and let the chakra follow from your leg towards the ground to give a better stance,  but in this case bansho tenin rises your whole body up and it pulls you toward the user. And tsunade has no intel on it, meaning she can't really do it while excepting it to happen.......


She has mini-Katsuyu proving her information on Pain's abilities she she'll be aware of Deva's gravitational push and push, as well as the abilities of the other Paths.



> Agreed, hence why I said she would destroy all the paths before losing. One punch is all it takes to destroy 1 pain, but in the other hand 1 Stab is all takes for pain to immobilize her.


I doubt one rod would be able to do it, as Sakura with Tsunade's own ability and similar chakra control wasn't phased after being pierced by one of Juubimads' black rods and was even able to attack afterwards (being stopped by Mads' Limbo).
(1)
(1)



> When did sakura say such thing If I may ask you? And we seen what happened to naruto when he was stabbed by it so it fairly clear that one stabb is enough to disturb the chakra inside your body rather than actually immobilizing  it . Either way, it would fatal .


Naruto's chakra was disturbed, but I wouldn't say he was completely immobile at that point as then I don't see why Pain would have seen it prudent to insert another six into him:
(1)



> (1)
> Dodged this in point blank
> 
> Dodging a close range kick from a rinnegan user who was able to keep up with 7 tails kyuubi and even a frog kata user
> ...


I'm not saying SM Naruto and Kakashi aren't fast, but comparatively speaking the examples you provide above are nothing spectacular; the last one not really being an example of speed at all. All-in-all I don't see speed being the determining factor as it was never emphasized in any of Pain's fights that exceptional speed was needed to keep up with him. 



> Liquidfiiding herself requires chakra, which black rod can disturb. *But one thing it can do is to divide into smalls pieces to troll pain lol*


This is what I meant by liquify, as I don't recall Katsuyu ever separating itself in any other way. My bad if that wasn't clear.



> The acid won't really reach it, and please tell me where would the other paths be when she's doing all that? she's obviously  busy with them.


How do you figure? Animals's summons would have to be flying so far out of range of the actual fight happening on the ground so as to be out of Katsuyu's range.

As far as the other Path's are concerned most will be spectators if Deva isn't aiding them in being able to land clean hits on Tsunade. But that's pretty much the whole discussion here: how much damage can any of the Paths really do to Tsunade when she murders them in CQC and can reliably heal any damage they can dish out (with the exception of Human Realm who one-shots).

So basically:

Deva - can't do much damage himself. BT needs to be combo'd with another Path and ST will be brushed off under most circumstances because of Byakugō regen and Katsuyu spread around the battle field to provide potential cushioning.

Preta - completely useless for the most part in the sense that Tsunade doesn't rely on ninjutsu and any chakra it might absorb will be miniscule at best compared to Tsunade complete stores.

Animal - a pest but all of it's summons could probably be dealt with by enough Katsuyu spraying acid.

Human - a significant threat if it can get its hand on Tsunade to Soul Rip, but that requires Tsunade to already be immobilized in some fashion as any CQC exchange it engages in will most likely result in Human getting crushed.

Asura - potentially a serious nuisance if he decides to spam missiles and if Deva decides to send Tsunade his way and Animal has that chain saw thing out. However in canon Nagato had Animal charge Tsunade and Naruto crushed him and I don't see any reason why he wouldn't do the same here, which will probably end in the same result against a Tsunade starting out at 100%

Naraka - a problem and potentially a very serious nuisance, especially if Nagato decides to camp him out on a flying summon with his only purpose to wait reverse-summon dead Paths and revive them. However, IIRC it was Konan who stated that each time they are revived it takes longer than the last, so Pain could find themselves in a situation where if Tsunade keep cleaning out Paths Naraka is going to eventually reach a point where it takes too long to revive them and Tsunade will be able to focus all of her attention on Narak; or, Katsuyu can spray acid Naraka's way and use that as a disruption if not an outright way to "kill" him.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 7, 2015)

N120 said:


> It's battle strategy.



Irrelevant to the point.

The very fact that Kabuto employs the strategy of running away until his already weakened opponent is out of breath before engaging her upon ingesting ninja steroids _is itself_ a concession that he isn't able to match her in close-combat otherwise. The entire point of the strategy is to try and get around that detail.



> Same can be said about part 2 sage kabuto. He was a prodigy when he fought her back then but now he's a top tier opponent.



Those things are non-comparable.

Tsunade was incredibly _weakened_ in Part 1, Kabuto was not. _Sage_ Kabuto is the result of a Kabuto already in decent shape integrating everybody and their mama's DNA into his body and pursuing a mastery of Senjutsu, not a result of him simply having significant handicaps removed.

The Kabuto that you were trying to say was even with Tsunade could never survive against her in any scenario where she isn't out-of-practice, in a blind rage, out-of-breath, etc.


Besides, Sage Kabuto skates on enhanced stats and body modifications, and his being top tier has a whole lot to do with his Ninjutsu, not because he increased his Taijutsu skill (which is what we're talking about here).

He'd kill Deva in close-quarters, too, though.



> In anycase, hanzou made them legendary.



No he didn't.

He didn't give Chiyo a title even though she engaged him enough times that she was able to concoct antidotes to his poisons, he didn't give Mifune a title even though he was of a high enough caliber that Hanzō couldn't risk removing his mask.

Why? Because he doesn't give out titles as rewards for surviving against him. The title is _part of a deal he made with Team Hiruzen_, not a reward he gave them.

Hanzō had Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru refer to themselves as _Sannin_ (he himself didn't say "legendary") in exchange for their lives. Having them call themselves Sannin would only do anything if the three were able to go out and make their names known themselves; it was a way for the salamander to have his name associated with theirs as their fame grew. They eventually became the _legendary_ Sannin because of their performances throughout the rest of the war which resulted in them being feared across the globe and intimidating enough that nobody would be scared of other villages making similarly bold moves as Suna by attacking a Konoha at about 1/3rd of its power if one was inaugurated as Hokage, not because they all got solo'd by one guy from a minor village when they were maybe twenty.

They would have become legendary whether they fought Hanzō or not.

Obito wouldn't have said Pain having his hands full with Jiraiya was the Sannin living up to his reputation if what made him legendary in the first place was just surviving against the guy whose entire regime was wiped off the face of the earth by Pain so swiftly and thoroughly people said it was like an act of God.



> Any hype tsunade gets isn't going to match pains.
> 
> Whether you believe she is capable of matching deva at cqc or not, she hasn't shown anything that would allow her to hit him.



Tsunade's hype may not match _Pain's_, but..._Pain_ consists of six bodies.

Jiraiya got in three kills and then after having his arm taken off in an ambush once the paths were revived scored at least one more (with Pain admitting he probably would've been beaten had Jiraiya known about the other bodies), yet his fellow Sannin can't even beat Deva _alone_ in one of her areas of expertise? Does that really make sense to you?

Deva's Taijutsu feats consist of being able to stab Kakashi while he was touching the ground to cast a Doton, pressure _base_ Naruto, and get kicked around like he was a soccer ball or something by Sage Naruto. I don't see how that supports the notion that Tsunade can't manage to touch him.

If you mean in spite of Shinra Tensei...You don't think Deva could underestimate how much power he needs in one Shinra Tensei to overcome Tsunade's titanic strength, resilience, and Chakra-cling strategy only to find himself open to her strike when caught off guard by it?


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## N120 (Jun 8, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Irrelevant to the point.
> 
> The very fact that Kabuto employs the strategy of running away until his already weakened opponent is out of breath before engaging her upon ingesting ninja steroids _is itself_ a concession that he isn't able to match her in close-combat otherwise. The entire point of the strategy is to try and get around that detail.



He didn't run away, he evaded her attacks, engaged her in battle  and countered on her weakness. Which makes it relevant. Why would a seasoned fighter not capitalise on the opponents weakness? 



> Those things are non-comparable.
> 
> Tsunade was incredibly _weakened_ in Part 1, Kabuto was not. _Sage_ Kabuto is the result of a Kabuto already in decent shape integrating everybody and their mama's DNA into his body and pursuing a mastery of Senjutsu, not a result of him simply having significant handicaps removed.
> 
> ...



Its comparable, we are dealing with her part 1 vs kabuto part 1 whatever shape they maybe in. It's unfair to say "well part 2 tsuande is 20x tougher and would def have outdone part 1 kabuto." Sure, but how is that comparable?  You're conveniently glossing over everyone else's strength while exaggerating her own. 

in anycase her handicap was removed in that very fight, she didn't vastly improve in taijutsu,speed or stamina, and that's not where she was handicapped either. 





> No he didn't.
> 
> He didn't give Chiyo a title even though she engaged him enough times that she was able to concoct antidotes to his poisons, he didn't give Mifune a title even though he was of a high enough caliber that Hanzō couldn't risk removing his mask.
> 
> ...



So the point I made was correct. They were named the sanin by hanzou and that's what made them famous. Them surviving against hanzou was in itself a feat,  big enough that Jman would double take years later after having established his own rep when he heard pain defeated hanzou. He didn't brush it off as meh, it's only hanzou. 

And the sanin were fought to deadlock by this man, and they conceded to his demands which showcases hanzou status as a formidable ninja. Do you really want to downplay him that much? 

He's outfought all of the opponents you've mentioned and all of them respect him as a high calibre opponent.



> Tsunade's hype may not match _Pain's_, but..._Pain_ consists of six bodies.
> 
> Jiraiya got in three kills and then after having his arm taken off in an ambush once the paths were revived scored at least one more (with Pain admitting he probably would've been beaten had Jiraiya known about the other bodies), yet his fellow Sannin can't even beat Deva _alone_ in one of her areas of expertise? Does that really make sense to you?
> 
> ...



She tried clinging to the ground with chakra, ended up buried under rubble and exhausting her chakra. This is canon,you're speculating that somehow this wouldn't happen again. 

And yes, even at cqc he has enough skill to avoid avoid her strikes as he can see chakra. He is no slouch at taijutsu himself but The risk is there Ofcourse and that goes both ways. Tsunade is vulnerable to ST and his chakra rods But the most likely scenario would be that she won't get close enough to landing a hit as deva is a shameless ST spammer.

If we restrict ST she has a greater chance of landing a hit, but not a guarantee. He can still use his chakra rods to overcome her.


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## Ashi (Jun 8, 2015)

Slug Sage Mode should end this quickly


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

The dog gets raishinsho'd.  Spazz puppies can't battle.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 8, 2015)

N120 said:


> He didn't run away.



_Except that is *exactly* what he did._



> Which makes it relevant.



Not to Taijutsu skill, no.



> Its comparable.



And no it's not. In Tsunade's case you're just removing handicaps, _hindrances_. That's not what you're doing in Kabuto's case.

The Tsunade in this thread isn't rusty, isn't out of shape, isn't out of breath, etc., she is at 100%, so trying to equate her to Kabuto here is even more disingenuous (to put it very lightly) than it already was.



> in anycase her handicap was removed in that very fight



She only overcame her hemophobia- the handicap that isn't even relevant to Taijutsu. She didn't somehow regain her pre-retirement touch or get back into pre-retirement shape in that fight, and decades of being inactive has pretty drastic ramifications for several aspects of one's performance.



> So the point I made was correct. They were named the sanin by hanzou and that's what made them famous.



No.

Like I said, Pain annihilated Hanzō's entire regime with the salamander himself included in such a manner that people said it was like an act of God. That same Pain had his hands full with a Sannin, and that fact was chalked up to said Sannin "living up to his reputation".

That wouldn't have been said if they were only famous for simply surviving a fight with Hanzō. So to reiterate, they didn't become famous for Hanzō letting them live, and the point of Hanzō even letting them live on the condition that they call themselves Sannin was to get his own name out there even more once they made themselves legendary.



> He didn't brush it off as meh, it's only hanzou.



He didn't have to.



> She tried clinging to the ground with chakra, ended up buried under rubble and exhausting her chakra.



1.) That was the amplified Shinra Tensei that required Nagato to shut down all of his paths bar Deva to charge it up. He won't be using it here with the other paths present and active.

2.) She _wasn't_ clinging to the ground because she was leaping over a building when CST was launched.



> And yes, even at cqc he has enough skill to avoid avoid her strikes as he can see chakra.



I don't see how being able to see her Chakra is supposed to help him avoid her strikes, because the manipulation of it is instantaneous. She doesn't have to gather it _then_ throw the strike, she can gather it _as_ she throws the strike, affording no extra time.

Chakra rods pose _virtually_ _no_ _threat_ to _someone_ _like_ _Tsunade_.


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## N120 (Jun 8, 2015)

Now that was unnecessary, why did you not provide the previous page to the page you linked? Orochimaru specifically asked kabuto if he was relocating the the fight to an open area as it was too congested for their liking, and I'm sure you read it but glossed over it as inconvenient.

And no, you're adding the stipulations and excuses. You said she was handicapped but that handicap was removed in that very fight. now it's her 'rustiness' which is a vague statement. It doesn't mean anything as it's difficult to assertain how much that "rustiness" actually effected her performance, if at all.

What we know based on canon is that kabuto was on par with her, who himself was mentioned to be at kakashis skill level. Also worth noting is that she praised his skills herself, it wasn't inferred by a third party. It was made through combat experience, so you can hardly blame her lack of dominance in her duel with kabuto on her rustiness as opposed to kabutos skill.

so Hanzo, the leader of a village did it for fame? He doesn't come across as someone as shallow as that, he was already a famed and respected ninja before the sanin came to the spot light. Come on now.

And jiraiya =/= tsunade. Jiraiya lost his life after going sage mode and summoning ma and pa. tsunade doesn't have anything in her arsenal to replicate what he did. So it's moot point.

Like I said, sanin or not they'd all lose to pain as did Hanzo, his village, and the entirety of konoha, That's just how strong he was. Barring Oro who served as his underling they all lost in canon fair and square.

As for her tanking ST, only KN6 has managed such a feat and he had to dig his chakra tails into the ground to repel the ST. And base naruto had to use Tajuu Kate bunshins to withstand the force, and you're saying Tsuande and her anbu guards would replicate this with a little chakra on their feat? I find it highly unlikely. And in case this was over looked, tsunade does need to move and pains ST is capable of both push/pull. 

And lastly, she hasn't showcased her taijutsu is any better than when she fought kabuto. And the chakra rods have shown to not only damage opponents, disrupt their chakra, but it's via these rods that pain controls the host bodies. It's not meant just for pearcing attacks.
-----------
As for selectively posting manga pages, they don't help your case but show bias. 

None of the scans negate anything I've said:
1. Kakashis tried to trap deva and land a chidori, deva countered skilfully.
2. Naruto used the chakra disruption to his advantage by sensing the chakra stream, Same rods had incapacitated moments earlier.
3.tsuande healed from a sword wound, chakra rods do more than pierce.
4.she got trolled. 
5. She got trolled and was struggling. She said so herself.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 8, 2015)

N120 said:


> Now that was unnecessary, why did you not provide the previous page to the page you linked? Orochimaru specifically asked kabuto if he was relocating the the fight to an open area as it was too congested for their liking, and I'm sure you read it but glossed over it as inconvenient.



I fail to see how this makes FlamingRain's argument any less valid. Kabuto appreciated that he was inferior to Tsunade in Taijutsu, why can't you? 

Kabuto couldn't engage Tsunade's taijutsu in a congested area, yes, but even once he arrived in an open area, all he could do was jump away from her _until she ran out out of breath_. It was then, and only then, that he took a soldier pill to boost his physical abilities, and finally attack her at close range. Kabuto was obviously weaker than her in taijutsu, which he practically admitted himself. Kabuto needed to switch battlefields,  exhaust his opponent and boost his stats with a soldier pill before he could even hope to challenge her in CQC, and even then, _he still failed_.



> And no, you're adding the stipulations and excuses. You said she was handicapped but that handicap was removed in that very fight. now it's her 'rustiness' which is a vague statement. It doesn't mean anything as it's difficult to assertain how much that "rustiness" actually effected her performance, if at all.



It's fairly obvious how much it affected her performance. In Part I she exhausts herself from just running after Kabuto and Orochimaru for a while, in Part II she fights Madara non-stop for _several_ _hours_ without any signs of exhaustion. In Part I she _struggles to gather the chakra_ for even one Shousen no Jutsu, in Part II she _uses thousands at once_. 



> What we know based on canon is that kabuto was on par with her, who himself was mentioned to be at kakashis skill level. Also worth noting is that she praised his skills herself, it wasn't inferred by a third party. It was made through combat experience, so you can hardly blame her lack of dominance in her duel with kabuto on her rustiness as opposed to kabutos skill.



Kabuto was only on par with Tsunade after Orochimaru provided him with knowledge on her abilities (while she had none on his), after he exhausted her, after he led her to a different battlefield and then took soldier pills to buff his stats. Had Tsunade engaged him, and him alone, without any of these advantages, he would have been trashed. Even then he couldn't actually defeat Tsunade in close quarters combat without immobilising her with his own blood. It's ridiculous to think that Kabuto was anywhere near her skill level during that fight.



> so Hanzo, the leader of a village did it for fame? He doesn't come across as someone as shallow as that, he was already a famed and respected ninja before the sanin came to the spot light. Come on now.



Hanzou was extremely power hungry and very competitive, which is why he quickly eliminated Yahiko's Akatsuki because he feared that it might gain too much support and cast a shadow over his rule. Therefore, it isn't surprising at all that he wanted the world to fear him as much as possible by giving three extraordinarily powerful shinobi a title which originated from their loss to him in battle.



> And jiraiya =/= tsunade. Jiraiya lost his life after going sage mode and summoning ma and pa. tsunade doesn't have anything in her arsenal to replicate what he did. So it's moot point.



SM Jiraiya is only marginally more powerful than Tsunade - all of the Sannin are incredibly close in strength. I won't go into a huge debate with you on why I think this, but if you want to make a seperate thread to discuss it, by all means do.



> As for her tanking ST, only KN6 has managed such a feat and he had to dig his chakra tails into the ground to repel the ST. And base naruto had to use Tajuu Kate bunshins to withstand the force, and you're saying Tsuande and her anbu guards would replicate this with a little chakra on their feat? I find it highly unlikely. And in case this was over looked, tsunade does need to move and pains ST is capable of both push/pull.



Tsunade and her ANBU guards focused chakra to their feet to avoid being sucked in by Bansho Ten'in, and there's no reason why that wouldn't have worked. True, even if it stopped them from being blasted away by Shinra Tensei, it didn't stop them from taking damage from it. For her ANBU guards who aren't that durable or resilient that would be a huge problem. However, for Tsunade, who took Pein's CST without being protected by Katsuyu, and who can regenerate via her Byakugou no In, the damage Pein inflicts with his Deva Path isn't very problematic. 



> And lastly, she hasn't showcased her taijutsu is any better than when she fought kabuto. And the chakra rods have shown to not only damage opponents, disrupt their chakra, but it's via these rods that pain controls the host bodies. It's not meant just for pearcing attacks.



Tsunade has a 5/5 in Taijutsu in the databook, thats all you'll ever need to know. Kabuto, who had a 2.5/5 in Taijutsu at the time, had admitted inferiority to Tsunade in taijutsu after he took a soldier pill to boost his speed and chakra levels so that he could fight her. Naruto, who had a 2/5 in Taijutsu, got trashed by Tsunade while she was drunk and using nothing but her index finger. By Part II she lands hits on Madara, his Mokuton clones and punches away fireballs with her fists. She's obviously a cut above average, hence her high stat in the DB.

Chakra rods aren't doing a whole lot to Tsunade. Beginning of Part II Sakura _managed to heal herself for a while_ _despite Sasori's poison affecting her chakra control_, so I'd imagine Tsunade could do the same thing, but better than her disciple could. Also, unlike Sakura, Tsunade still has her base strength to fight with even if she can't mould chakra that well. Though, once she removes chakra rods from her body, she can continue fighting as normal.
​​


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## N120 (Jun 8, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I fail to see how this makes FlamingRain's argument any less valid. Kabuto appreciated that he was inferior to Tsunade in Taijutsu, why can't you? ​




it destroys his opening argument, he argued kabuto ran away and provided  scan(out of context) as way of proof, where as its contradicted on the previous page.



> Kabuto couldn't engage Tsunade's taijutsu in a congested area, yes, but even once he arrived in an open area, all he could do was jump away from her _until she ran out out of breath_. It was then, and only then, that he took a soldier pill to boost his physical abilities, and finally attack her at close range. Kabuto was obviously weaker than her in taijutsu, which he practically admitted himself. Kabuto needed to switch battlefields,  exhaust his opponent and boost his stats with a soldier pill before he could even hope to challenge her in CQC, and even then, _he still failed_.



being weaker =/= less skilled. As you pointed out yourself Kabuto exploited her weakness and wore her out before engaging her in cqc where he held his own and nullified her chakra enhance strikes. 



> It's fairly obvious how much it affected her performance. In Part I she exhausts herself from just running after Kabuto and Orochimaru for a while, in Part II she fights Madara non-stop for _several_ _hours_ without any signs of exhaustion. In Part I she _struggles to gather the chakra_ for even one Shousen no Jutsu, in Part II she _uses thousands at once_.



Again that doesn't counter my point, while we can speculate to say she may have more chakra to burn in part 2 it doesn't mean she had a jump in her skill levels too. it also doesn't mean that the outcome vs kabuto would've been that much different.



> Kabuto was only on par with Tsunade after Orochimaru provided him with knowledge on her abilities (while she had none on his), after he exhausted her, after he led her to a different battlefield and then took soldier pills to buff his stats. Had Tsunade engaged him, and him alone, without any of these advantages, he would have been trashed. Even then he couldn't actually defeat Tsunade in close quarters combat without immobilising her with his own blood. It's ridiculous to think that Kabuto was anywhere near her skill level during that fight.



She said so herself. And knowledge may have given kabuto a head start but the same applies to tsunade vs pain.



> Hanzou was extremely power hungry and very competitive, which is why he quickly eliminated Yahiko's Akatsuki because he feared that it might gain too much support and cast a shadow over his rule. Therefore, it isn't surprising at all that he wanted the world to fear him as much as possible by giving three extraordinarily powerful shinobi a title which originated from their loss to him in battle.



No, he was an elite Kate in his own right. The fact that three relative unknown shinobis survived against him was what got them that honorary title. Everything else is speculation, just like the argument regarding her skill w/out rustiness.



> SM Jiraiya is only marginally more powerful than Tsunade - all of the Sannin are incredibly close in strength. I won't go into a huge debate with you on why I think this, but if you want to make a seperate thread to discuss it, by all means do.



I don't follow that mode of thinking. It doesn't matter if your stronger or weaker it doesn't mean A>B and B>C so by default it must mean A >C. Jiraiya had a skill set that allowed him to pull of what he did, tsuande has a completely different skill set. That doesn't make her weak or inferior, just a bad matchup.

For example, Jman/Hanzo/kakashis and countless other ninjas died while she lived and saved hundreds of thousands of people from devas second strongest attack. She did far better than the others named, but in other fields.(healing)



> Tsunade and her ANBU guards focused chakra to their feet to avoid being sucked in by Bansho Ten'in, and there's no reason why that wouldn't have worked. True, even if it stopped them from being blasted away by Shinra Tensei, it didn't stop them from taking damage from it. For her ANBU guards who aren't that durable or resilient that would be a huge problem. However, for Tsunade, who took Pein's CST without being protected by Katsuyu, and who can regenerate via her Byakugou no In, the damage Pein inflicts with his Deva Path isn't very problematic.



It is problematic. byakugo =/= inpenetrable tank. She is still effected by attacks but has the ability to heal from them. It  doesn't  mean she can withstand the ST. Again, that's speculation.



> Tsunade has a 5/5 in Taijutsu in the databook, thats all you'll ever need to know. Kabuto, who had a 2.5/5 in Taijutsu at the time, had admitted inferiority to Tsunade in taijutsu after he took a soldier pill to boost his speed and chakra levels so that he could fight her. Naruto, who had a 2/5 in Taijutsu, got trashed by Tsunade while she was drunk and using nothing but her index finger. By Part II she lands hits on Madara, his Mokuton clones and punches away fireballs with her fists. She's obviously a cut above average, hence her high stat in the DB.
> 
> Chakra rods aren't doing a whole lot to Tsunade. Beginning of Part II Sakura _managed to heal herself for a while_ _despite Sasori's poison affecting her chakra control_, so I'd imagine Tsunade could do the same thing, but better than her disciple could. Also, unlike Sakura, Tsunade still has her base strength to fight with even if she can't mould chakra that well. Though, once she removes chakra rods from her body, she can continue fighting as normal.


​
Manga > databook. Tsuande may have a 5 but she was matched by kabuto and nothing indicates she improved her taijutsu Skill that much in part 2. Deva rampaged through konoha solo before destroying konoha and managed to avoid getting harmed by part 2 kakashis who also trained to become better than his part 1 self. (Part 1 Kakashi was compared to part 1 kabuto) 

I agree, she is better than Sakura and she still poses a great threat at cqc being more advanced,skilled and experienced than any version of Sakura we have seen to date. That still doesn't mean she isn't vulnerable to devas attacks. 

Also we need to focus in differences in the two disabling attacks, poison can be cured and slowed, controlling someone else's chakra is a harder task. Naruto was immobilised with these rods and he was arguable the most powerful shinobis in konoha having access to three beastly sources of chakra and proficiency in controlling them.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 8, 2015)

N120 said:


> it destroys his opening argument, he argued kabuto ran away and provided  scan(out of context) as way of proof, where as its contradicted on the previous page.



And that makes it a contradiction..how..exactly? 



> being weaker =/= less skilled. As you pointed out yourself Kabuto exploited her weakness and wore her out before engaging her in cqc where he held his own and nullified her chakra enhance strikes.



Because he had to, otherwise he would have lost. Tsunade > Kabuto in Taijutsu.



> Again that doesn't counter my point, while we can speculate to say she may have more chakra to burn in part 2 it doesn't mean she had a jump in her skill levels too. it also doesn't mean that the outcome vs kabuto would've been that much different.



The scans I have just provided you show that its not speculation. Its canon fact that she had more chakra. Naturally, with more stamina she is able to fight at the same level for a much longer period of time, whereas with less stamina, her performance will get naturally worse the more worn out she gets. Kabuto, on the other hand, took soldier pills to boost his chakra levels tenfold, ensuring that this could never happen to him. And yes, while her skill level probably wasn't much different from her Part II skill level, her ability to employ skilful movements wasn't as sharp as it could have been, because she'd been exhausted prior. With more stamina, her chances of landing hits on Kabuto increase. So yes, the outcome of the match may have differed.



> She said so herself. And knowledge may have given kabuto a head start but the same applies to tsunade vs pain.



Tsunade never said that. What she said was that his jutsu instincts and sharpness _might_ have surpassed hers in her prime. From that, I don't know where you got that she said he was as strong as she was. The only fair hit Kabuto actually landed on Tsunade was one that she _charged herself into_, it wasn't to do with Kabuto's superiority, it was just a bad judgement call on Tsunade's part - she didn't know that he still had his Chakra Scalpels active, or at least, if she did, she didn't anticipate him to be able to hit her with it as she tackled him. This, again, comes down to her lack of knowledge on him prior to the match. 



> No, he was an elite Kate in his own right. The fact that three relative unknown shinobis survived against him was what got them that honorary title. Everything else is speculation, just like the argument regarding her skill w/out rustiness.



Yes, but what made the Sannin so famous was their _performances_ in the war and afterwards, the title itself was just that, a title. It was their legendary performances before and after that which made their title become so well known. When shinobi refer to Tsunade, they usually refer to her prodigious talent in medical ninjutsu, which is what earned her so much fame throughout the Second Great War. Again, that isn't speculation, that is _fact_. Surviving against Hanzou did earn them a title, yes, but no one refers to the Sannin for their ability to survive against Hanzou, but rather for their power and skill they possess.



> I don't follow that mode of thinking. It doesn't matter if your stronger or weaker it doesn't mean A>B and B>C so by default it must mean A >C. Jiraiya had a skill set that allowed him to pull of what he did, tsuande has a completely different skill set. That doesn't make her weak or inferior, just a bad matchup.
> 
> For example, Jman/Hanzo/kakashis and countless other ninjas died while she lived and saved hundreds of thousands of people from devas second strongest attack. She did far better than the others named, but in other fields.(healing)



We can agree on that, at least. However, Tsunade does have the tools and skill set to combat Pein, just as SM Jiraiya did. The difference is that she has way more knowledge on him than Jiraiya.



> It is problematic. byakugo =/= inpenetrable tank. She is still effected by attacks but has the ability to heal from them. It  doesn't  mean she can withstand the ST. Again, that's speculation.



Stop using the word speculation, it isn't applicable at all. Tsunade's resilience in battle isn't just some baseless conjecture I've pulled out of my ass, this is the same woman who went through Mabui's Heavenly Transfer Technique (which supposedly tore humans into bacon strips) and came out with only a few minor injuries. This is the same woman who took giant swords through several of her vital organs and still had the vitality to jump around and throw punches. This is the same woman who had been _*cut in half*_ and could still use the Kuchiyose, and then heal all four of her team-mates. Even without regeneration, this woman is an absolute beast. The damage of a regular Shinra Tensei is not slowing her down whenever significantly less durable/resilient shinobi like Chouji and Kakashi survived it [1] [2].



> Manga > databook.



No. The databook was written by Kishimoto just as the manga was. Yes, the databook has inconsistencies, but so does the manga. They are both equally as relevant sources of information as each other, even if they do have their flaws.



> Tsuande may have a 5 but she was matched by kabuto



Firstly, Tsunade was exhausted. She wasn't in her physical prime.

Secondly, Kabuto used a soldier pill to boost his chakra levels and physical stats, giving him an obvious speed advantage, and preventing him from tiring himself out, _ever_. He admitted inferiority to her in Taijutsu skill the minute he popped that pill. Just because he out-performed her in other physical attributes (stamina, speed), it doesn't mean his _Taijutsu skill_ miraculously improved. 



> and nothing indicates she improved her taijutsu Skill that much in part 2.



Which was never a part of my argument in the first place.



> Deva rampaged through konoha solo before destroying konoha and managed to avoid getting harmed by part 2 kakashis who also trained to become better than his part 1 self. (Part 1 Kakashi was compared to part 1 kabuto)



I'm not sure what relevance this has, so I'll move on. 



> I agree, she is better than Sakura and she still poses a great threat at cqc being more advanced,skilled and experienced than any version of Sakura we have seen to date. That still doesn't mean she isn't vulnerable to devas attacks.



I literally just refuted this. Stop going in circles.



> Also we need to focus in differences in the two disabling attacks, poison can be cured and slowed, controlling someone else's chakra is a harder task. Naruto was immobilised with these rods and he was arguable the most powerful shinobis in konoha having access to three beastly sources of chakra and proficiency in controlling them.



Naruto was immobilised because they pierced through his entire body and locked him into the ground, not because the rods messed up his chakra control. He was also in base when this happened, and got man-handled by Deva Path. That isn't possible against Tsunade, who is both more skilled physically stronger than base Naruto.​​


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## StickaStick (Jun 8, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> *Slug Sage Mode* should end this quickly


Wouldn't that have been nice. Unfortunately, it appears that what might be considered the Slug-SM was given to Hashirama instead (despite him not needing it power-wise), like how Dragon/Snake-SM was given to Kabuto.


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## N120 (Jun 8, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> And that makes it a contradiction..how..exactly?​




His reasoning wasn't tsuande alone, but he took into account her entourage also. He relocated the battle and evaded her attacks while doing so. He didn't turn to run away.




> Because he had to, otherwise he would have lost. Tsunade > Kabuto in Taijutsu.



No, he would have lost if she landed a direct hit but she couldn't. She was outmanoeuvred and countered.



> The scans I have just provided you show that its not speculation. Its canon fact that she had more chakra. Naturally, with more stamina she is able to fight at the same level for a much longer period of time, whereas with less stamina, her performance will get naturally worse the more worn out she gets. Kabuto, on the other hand, took soldier pills to boost his chakra levels tenfold, ensuring that this could never happen to him. And yes, while her skill level probably wasn't much different from her Part II skill level, her ability to employ skilful movements wasn't as sharp as it could have been, because she'd been exhausted prior. With more stamina, her chances of landing hits on Kabuto increase. So yes, the outcome of the match may have differed.



And that's what I've been saying, an increase in stamina and power doesn't mean an increase in skill. Kabuto could just aswell continue evading her attacks and wear her down until he can counter attack, just as before.

what we know is that kabuto is skilled and has matched tsuande in combat.



> Tsunade never said that. What she said was that his jutsu instincts and sharpness _might_ have surpassed hers in her prime. From that, I don't know where you got that she said he was as strong as she was. The only fair hit Kabuto actually landed on Tsunade was one that she _charged herself into_, it wasn't to do with Kabuto's superiority, it was just a bad judgement call on Tsunade's part - she didn't know that he still had his Chakra Scalpels active, or at least, if she did, she didn't anticipate him to be able to hit her with it as she tackled him. This, again, comes down to her lack of knowledge on him prior to the match.




Right, so you downplay kabutos skill as a fluke and tsunades lack of dominance on her lack of judgment and rustiness. Decision making and style of combat are part of battle skill, you can't simply wave it off. And no one is arguing kabutos punch > tsunades, I'm talking about combat skill. Kabuto have evaded her attacks and nullified her chakra punch as a counter measure. I've he made sure she can't fight to her strengths in cqc. That takes skill.



> Yes, but what made the Sannin so famous was their _performances_ in the war and afterwards, the title itself was just that, a title. It was their legendary performances before and after that which made their title become so well known. When shinobi refer to Tsunade, they usually refer to her prodigious talent in medical ninjutsu, which is what earned her so much fame throughout the Second Great War. Again, that isn't speculation, that is _fact_. Surviving against Hanzou did earn them a title, yes, but no one refers to the Sannin for their ability to survive against Hanzou, but rather for their power and skill they possess.



Again that's diverting from the point as to why it was raised. Hangout defeated the sanin and pain defeated hanzou. That hype favours pain more than tsuande which was the original point. To push on, pain defeated tsuande and jiraiya thus living upto the hype.




> We can agree on that, at least. However, Tsunade does have the tools and skill set to combat Pein, just as SM Jiraiya did. The difference is that she has way more knowledge on him than Jiraiya.



So did Naruto and even he had to go through hurdles, from sage mode, to kn6, back to sage and ksm, backed by ma ,pa, minato, hinata, and katsuyu. It was only then that he managed to draw battle out the battle in his favour and still would have lost if not for the fact he was able to track down nagato.

Tsuande can replicate this? I doubt it. What we saw in the manga is the most likely outcome.



> Stop using the word speculation, it isn't applicable at all. Tsunade's resilience in battle isn't just some baseless conjecture I've pulled out of my ass, this is the same woman who went through Mabui's Heavenly Transfer Technique (which supposedly tore humans into bacon strips) and came out with only a few minor injuries. This is the same woman who took giant swords through several of her vital organs and still had the vitality to jump around and throw punches. This is the same woman who had been _*cut in half*_ and could still use the Kuchiyose, and then heal all four of her team-mates. Even without regeneration, this woman is an absolute beast. The damage of a regular Shinra Tensei is not slowing her down whenever significantly less durable/resilient shinobi like Chouji and Kakashi survived it [1] [2].
> 
> 
> 
> ...


​


> > Again that doesn't matter, deva was prepared to use those chakra rods to manipulate Naruto. Kakashi also felt disruption, and sm Naruto also used the disruptive properties of the rod to locate nagato. This highlights that the rod are more than just piercing tools.
> >
> > And tsuande being stronger is universally accepted, what is disputed is her skill level to deliver that blow against deva. It's unlikely.


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## LostSelf (Jun 8, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes, the Ninjutsu (amplification summoning) is what applies the condition of multiplication to the dog when the dog is summoned. The condition apparently being receiving certain types of damage.
> 
> 
> 
> The dog was being hit with Fūton and Raiton attacks....which tend to be penetrative _(1)_.



That's fair. I actually think that Jiraiya's summon's weapon is not that piercing and it made the dog multiply, but not gonna argue with that.

Would've loved to see it. Sadly, PNJ stomped the dog.

P.D: Chakra to the feet was not the best method. It was just what Tsunade had available. The method was never mentioned again, not even by Katsuyu, when she was providing knowledge to Naruto on how to counter Shinra Tensei.

I don't think chakra to the feet would prevail over Almighty Push.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 8, 2015)

N120 said:


> His reasoning wasn't tsuande alon, but her entourage also. He relocated the battle and evaded her attacks while doing so. He didn't turn to run away.



FlamingRain was perfectly aware of Kabuto's reasoning for changing the battlefield, but that doesn't discredit the fact that _he needed to change the battlefield to be able to engage her in close combat_. In a congested space, her taijutsu style would have fucked him up.



> No, he would have lost if she landed a direct hit and she couldn't.



Because he took a soldier pill, exhausted her, and had full knowledge of her abilities, yes. 



> She was outmanoeuvred and countered.



No she wasn't. He didn't 'outmanoeuvre' her once, she kept up with every single one of his attacks, and the two times he hit her, it was because she either threw herself into his attack, or because she physically couldn't move out of his way.



> And that's what I've saying, an increase in stamina and power doesn't mean an increase in skill.



No one ever never said it was an increase in skill, just that more stamina advantageously affected how she could employ her skill in battle. 



> Kabuto could just aswell continue evading her attacks and wear her down until he can counter attack, just as before.



No he couldn't. Part II Tsunade's stamina >>> Kabuto's. He would tire out far before she ever would.



> what we know is that kabuto is skilled and has matched tsuande in combat.



> By using a soldier pill, prior knowledge Orochimaru gave him, and tiring her out first
> and even that failed
> so he had to resort to immobilising her with blood, mitigating her power advantage over him because she couldn't move

Kabuto matched her in combat because of a set of very specific conditions that gave him many advantages. 



> Right, so you downplay kabutos skill as a fluke and tsunades lack of dominance on lack of judgment and rustiness. Decision making and style of combat are part of battle skill, you can't simply wave it off.



And for some reason, you act as if what I've said is unreasonable. To be clear, I'm not saying Kabuto isn't skilled, just that he needs many advantages to be able to compete with a rusty Tsunade, who fought him without any advantages. That is obviously an indication that she normally surpasses him in CQC.

Like I said before, Tsunade had very little knowledge of Kabuto. Most medical shinobi can't/don't use the chakra scalpel in battle situations because it takes a lot of precision and concentration, she had no way of knowing that he was talented enough to maintain it while she tackled him. Which is partly why she  took note of his skill afterwards. That isn't bad judgement. Bad judgement would be if she _did_ know this and still charged into him. She was simply uninformed. 



> And no one is arguing kabutos punch > tsunades, I'm talking about combat skill. Kabuto have evaded her attacks and nullified her chakra punch as a counter measure. I've he made sure she can't fight to her strengths in cqc. That takes skill.



_Because he had knowledge on her beforehand_. And he was only able to do so because Tsunade jumped into his attack. It was as much skill as it was luck that she had no knowledge.



> Again that's diverting from the point as to why it was raised. Hangout defeated the sanin and pain defeated hanzou. That hype favours pain more than tsuande which was the original point. To push on, pain defeated tsuande and jiraiya thus living upto the hype.



Hanzou was significantly weaker in his old age than he was when he fought the Sannin (see his fight with Mifune). Pein defeating him definitely isn't better hype than the Sannin doing so.



> So did Naruto and even he had to go through hurdles, from sage mode, to kn6,to sage and base, backed by ma ,pa, minato, hinata, and katsuyu. It was only then that he managed to draw battle out in his favour and still would have lost if not for the fact he was able to track down nagato.



He needed KN6 to overcome Chibaku Tensei, which is banned in this match-up, so it isn't relevant. At the end of the day, Tsunade possesses counters for everything Pein has using her arsenal, even if she doesn't have Sage Mode.  .




> No one is claiming she can't heal herself, she can. *The issue can she withstand ST?* Kakashi may have lived through it but he was defeated by it, as was the akimichi and the other support mins. They couldn't get close with Intel and support. Tsuande herself was repelled back along with her anbu guards. So is vulnerable to it. *Can she survive it, sure* but how does that help her hit pain? It doesn't.



I don't even know what you're arguing at this point. On one hand you agree that she can survive through it, but on the other hand you compare her durability and resilience to Kakashi's, Chouji's and a bunch of fodders'. Anyway, it helps her to hit Pein because when he blasts her away, she feigns being critically injured, and when he goes to finish her off she can retaliate unexpectedly. 



> Databook is supplementary publication aimed at milking the fanbase. We can accept it as a guideline towards kishi design and attributes he ascribes to his characters but ultimately the malanga is the business end.



The supplementary publication is providing the readers with the specific details that the manga does not: battle statistics. It cannot be ignored.



> What exactly did you refute?



That she's vulnerable to Deva's attacks. 



> Again that doesn't matter, deva was prepared to use those chakra rods to manipulate Naruto. Kakashi also felt disruption, and sm Naruto also used the disruptive properties of the rod to locate nagato. This highlights that the rod are more than just piercing tools.



We've already been through this. _I know they are more than piercing tools_. _I know that they also disrupt chakra_. But when Sakura can control her chakra with poison negatively affecting it, Tsunade, whose chakra control was even greater than her disciple's, should have no problem controlling her chakra with Pein's rod disrupting her chakra control. The argument here has nothing to do with Tsunade being stronger than Sakura overall, the argument is that her chakra control > Sakura's chakra control, meaning she will have no problem continuing to control her chakra when pierced with Pein's rod.

I hope that was clear enough for you. 



> And tsuande being stronger is universally accepted, what is disputed is skill level to deliver that blow against deva. It's unlikely.



I don't think she will land a blow on Deva using conventional taijutsu while there are other Path on the battlefield, but she has ways around that (see my original post that I linked to you above).​​


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## N120 (Jun 8, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> FlamingRain was perfectly aware of Kabuto's reasoning for changing the battlefield, but that doesn't discredit the fact that _he needed to change the battlefield to be able to engage her in close combat_. In a congested space, her taijutsu style would have fucked him up.​




Okay, and how is that any different from tsuande using chakra in an attempt to counter ST. That also would've f'd her up,but It's her strategy to fight him as this was kabutos strategy. Why would a fighter not take counter measures? I don't get this argument. 

Also flamingrain implied that kabuto couldn't match up to her, so he  decided to run, but the previous pages States his reasons weren't solely for tsunade, but he took into account the presence of jiraiya who he feared would ambush them.



> Because he took a soldier pill, exhausted her, and had full knowledge of her abilities, yes.



And that is part of his battle strategy. What exactly is he doing wrong here? Is this somehow unfair?



> No she wasn't. He didn't 'outmanoeuvre' her once, she kept up with every single one of his attacks, and the two times he hit her, *it was because she either threw herself into his attack, or because she physically couldn't move out of his way.*



then she was outmanoeuvred.  



> No one ever never said it was an increase in skill, just that more stamina advantageously affected how she could employ her skill in battle.



If it's not an increase in skill, then what exactly is she going to do with say 30% extra stamina?

Given he same scenario, part 2 tsunade would still be trying to land a punch on him with kabuto evading her.



> No he couldn't. Part II Tsunade's stamina >>> Kabuto's. He would tire out far before she ever would.



What makes you say that? 



> > By using a soldier pill, prior knowledge Orochimaru gave him, and tiring her out first
> > and even that failed
> > so he had to resort to immobilising her with blood, mitigating her power advantage over him because she couldn't move
> 
> Kabuto matched her in combat because of a set of very specific conditions that gave him many advantages.



Again I'm not seeing the problem here. She is physically stronger sure, we have both agreed on this point. but kabuto is skilled enough to nullify her strengths and make her fight at his pace. That's how he fights.



> And for some reason, you act as if what I've said is unreasonable. To be clear, I'm not saying Kabuto isn't skilled, just that he needs many advantages to be able to compete with a rusty Tsunade, who fought him without any advantages. That is obviously an indication that she normally surpasses him in CQC.



But she didn't. He has knowledge on a lot of shinobi as He was a root spy and informant afterall. He also had Intel on madara and itachi, but both broke free. He had Intel on Naruto and that backfired. So there is a limitation to what he can do with Intel. You're treating Intel as a bad thing, would you say the fight would be anymore different if tsuande also had knowledge of kabuto being a medic nin? I don't think so. 

It's also downplaying his ability, as if everything was down to Intel and nothing else. he was caught off guard by tsuande and instantly bounced back after having his nervous system scrambled, that wasn't down to Intel but pure skill and ability.



> Like I said before, Tsunade had very little knowledge of Kabuto. Most medical shinobi can't/don't use the chakra scalpel in battle situations because it takes a lot of precision and concentration, she had no way of knowing that he was talented enough to maintain it while she tackled him. Which is partly why she  took note of his skill afterwards. That isn't bad judgement. Bad judgement would be if she _did_ know this and still charged into him. She was simply uninformed.



But she still needs to get close perform cqc, so there's no way of avoiding his scalpels even if she knew. She still risked being hit.




> Hanzou was significantly weaker in his old age than he was when he fought the Sannin (see his fight with Mifune). Pein defeating him definitely isn't better hype than the Sannin doing so.



The sanin didn't defeat hanzou, and all of them lost to pain. how is this even a debate?



> He needed KN6 to overcome Chibaku Tensei, which is banned in this match-up, so it isn't relevant. At the end of the day, Tsunade possesses counters for everything Pein has using her arsenal, even if she doesn't have Sage Mode.  .



But isn't that clutching at straws, where everything goes according plan and pain is nerfed. tbh She doesn't need sage mode, she needs a wider skill set to combat pain. Jiraiya heavily utilised the element of surprise and traps to counter pain, tsuande doesn't have anything like that up her sleeves. She's a no nonsense brawler type.



> I don't even know what you're arguing at this point. On one hand you agree that she can survive through it, but on the other hand you compare her durability and resilience to Kakashi's, Chouji's and a bunch of fodders'. Anyway, it helps her to hit Pein because when he blasts her away, she feigns being critically injured, and when he goes to finish her off she can retaliate unexpectedly.



Kakashi tried the same tactic, but died saving chouji. In anycase, sure she may land a hit if deva hasn't already recharged his ST before closing in on her, or didn't decide to just ST a nail in her skull.



> The supplementary publication is providing the readers with the specific details that the manga does not: battle statistics. It cannot be ignored.



okay.



> That she's vulnerable to Deva's attacks.



When was this refuted? 



> We've already been through this. _I know they are more than piercing tools_. _I know that they also disrupt chakra_. But when Sakura can control her chakra with poison negatively affecting it, Tsunade, whose chakra control was even greater than her disciple's, should have no problem controlling her chakra with Pein's rod disrupting her chakra control. The argument here has nothing to do with Tsunade being stronger than Sakura overall, the argument is that her chakra control > Sakura's chakra control, meaning she will have no problem continuing to control her chakra when pierced with Pein's rod.
> 
> I hope that was clear enough for you.



 I've addressed this point. You're comparing apples and oranges. You're assuming since Sakura can counter poison in her blood that pains chakra rods would work the same way. There's no reason to assume that. 



> I don't think she will land a blow on Deva using conventional taijutsu while there are other Path on the battlefield, but she has ways around that (see my original post that I linked to you above).


​
She does have ways around it in theory, but I don't see why deva wouldn't just blow katsuyu away with ST which would put a halt to her plans from the get go and forcing her to restrategize.

Look I'm not saying tsuande is weak but if I'm honest what we saw play out in the manga, is what we'll see. I don't see how is fight will differ much in its outcome from canon.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

Tsunade hit everyone who ever engaged her in taijutsu, regardless of what they tried.  That's how the 5 works.  Kabuto goes through a hullabaloo land two taps, and got shoulder rammed.  Oro tongue lashed and got punched.  Naruto got one finger death poked, Madara got punched, and decided he wasn't comfortable with her standing near him with magatama.  People with 5's get to do their 5 thing in their fights.  That holds true for everyone.


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## N120 (Jun 8, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tsunade hit everyone who ever engaged her in taijutsu, regardless of what they tried.  That's how the 5 works.  Kabuto goes through a hullabaloo land two taps, and got shoulder rammed.  Oro tongue lashed and got punched.  Naruto got one finger death poked, Madara got punched, and decided he wasn't comfortable with her standing near him with magatama.  People with 5's get to do their 5 thing in their fights.  That holds true for everyone.



And where would you rank pains ninjutsu, especially his ST? If you give it a 5, then he'll do his 5 thing too right


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 9, 2015)

A single ninjutsu isn't a stat ranked out of 5 points.

If you're asking if I think Deva is going to use a Shinra Tensei in his fight, then yes, I think he is.  I mean, it's all he can really do, and he uses it even when it's bad for him to do so.  That doesn't mean I think Deva is going to win every fight just because of that, or that shoving Tsunade is going to bother her more than Madara's magatama, or that it can't be countered or resisted or circumvented.

If you're asking if I think people with 5 stats always win because they have mastery over something, I don't.  Itachi, for instance, has a 5 in genjutsu, and has landed genjutsu on his opponents in every fight he's been in.  But that doesn't mean Itachi won every fight with genjutsu.  Tayuya also has a 5 in genjutsu, and landed it on Shikamaru, but she didn't win with it.  Kakashi has tier 5 ninjutsu, and it's always prominent and impressive in his fights, and it's often how he ends fights he wins, but Kakashi's also lost or been unable to win plenty of fights.  Landing a raikiri on Kakuzu, for example, didn't net him a win, even if he "did his 5 thing."  The point is that they all got to prominently display their 5itude when the situation arose, and that's how Kishi shows they're good at it.  Tsunade hit everyone who tried to engage her taijutsu her, and that's how Kishi shows she's good at taijutsu.  That's my point, and it's in regards to people contesting the validity of that stat with big essays.


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## N120 (Jun 9, 2015)

I'm not validation stats and I don't read the databook. It's not needed Imo. I'm arguing based on canon events in the manga.

Pain defeated tsuande already, I don't think a rematch would change that. Her 5s in taijutsu doesn't mean anything, we've plenty of higher tier opponents with superior abilities get outdone by seemingly lesser foes. 

It's down to circumstance, fighting style and ability rather than ranks and stars.

She has 5 in tai, but no way of landing a punch.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 9, 2015)

N120 said:


> Now that was unnessary, why did you not provide the page before the page you linked? Orochimaru specifically asked kabuto if he was relocating the the fight to an open area as it was too congested for their liking, and I'm sure you read it but glossed over it as inconvenient.



Because I was holding on to that tiny, knotted, splitting strand of hope that you might actually bother to try and think about what we saw happen there.

So consider this:

The chase started at the Tanzaku Castle complex. In _all_ those shots of the Grassy Waves Prairie where they actually fought, count how many times you can spot _anything_ with even the most vague semblance of Tanzaku Castle, Town, _or even the forest surrounding it_ anywhere in the background.

You'll get the number zero, and then you'll realize that means they went _waaaaaaaaay_ farther than necessary to arrive at a less crowded space. You should also take note of Orochimaru's "it seems Tsunade's running out of breath, it's time to use 'it'" comment, and then at that point be able put 2 and 2 together to figure out that their plan was to flee until Tsunade had tired (i.e.: was even more hindered).



> And no, you're adding the stipulations and excuses. You said she was handicapped but that handicap was removed in that very fight. now it's her 'rustiness' which is a vague statement. It doesn't mean anything as it's difficult to assertain how much that "rustiness" actually effected her performance, if at all.



Don't try to act like I'm only bringing that up now. I've been saying she was rusty, out of shape, etcetera _*since this conversation started*_, because those are part of her being handicapped at the time. Fear of blood is the only handicap she got over during that fight, and it happens to be the handicap I mentioned the least often.

_You're_ the only one who has tried to change what they were saying. First attempting to attribute Tsunade's 5 in the databook to pure strength and when that didn't work out retreating to "manga > databook", and then trying to pretend removing handicaps is the same thing as stealing everyone's DNA and obtaining Sage Mode all of which is irrelevant to Taijutsu skill anyway.

If you're seriously sitting here contemplating the idea that Tsunade's performance somehow wasn't affected by her rustiness then you've gone past disingenuous interpretation and ventured into the realm of straight up absurdity. To be rusty is _by definition_ to be _impaired_ by that lack of recent practice. It is commonsensical that when you've been out of practice for _decades_ the effect on your ability would be huge, so if you want to contest that being the case the onus is upon _you_ to show that it isn't.

The fact of the matter is that by Part 2 we can see for ourselves that she's in far better shape because she displayed the stamina necessary to sustain _the village_ with healing techniques after summoning Katsuyu despite complaining about how medical Ninjutsu cost too much Chakra in Part 1, and has since shown she can kick Susano'o shattering hard now despite someone who makes craters roughly comparable to her Part 1 strikes being unable to so much as crack the same one without assistance, etc. We're also told through the databook that Tsunade's Taijutsu _skill_ measures up to a 5 out of 5, which means she's canonically more accomplished in that field than either Kakashi or Naruto, not to mention Kabuto, as if that wasn't clear enough.

This "manga > databook" excuse you're trying to pass off is silly because _it tries to fault Tsunade for not showing what she has not needed to show_- on panel, she has only battled against giant and outrageously durable Chakra constructs in Part 2, so the manga does not stand in contradiction to that score she was given.

It should be evident that nobody ought to be trying to equate her to Kabuto's 3.5 level of skill in Taijutsu, especially given the amount of caution he had to exercise prior to engaging her extremely rusty incarnation. He's no match for her at all when she's actually in a decent condition, and in this thread she is at 100%.



> so Hanzo, the leader of a village did it for fame? The same guy who kept things off radar as much as possible?



Hanzō was never an off radar kind of guy. Ever. Off the radar kind of guys aren't renowned to the point where people all over the world know their name. 

Now, he became a _security-conscious guy in order to preserve his rule over Amegakure_, eventually, but even that was _after_ the encounter with Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru.



> Jiraiya lost his life after going sage mode and summoning ma and pa. tsunade doesn't have anything in her arsenal to replicate what he did.



She doesn't have to replicate what he did.

Jiraiya started out with virtually no knowledge and got in at least 4 kills in the end. _Pain_ had his hands full. Deva is only _one_ path out of the _six_ that constitute Pain. It wouldn't make any sense that any _one_ path would be too much for Tsunade to handle when she's been informed of his special ability.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 9, 2015)

N120 said:


> I'm not validation stats and I don't read the databook. It's not needed Imo. I'm arguing based on canon events in the manga



Okay.

Tsunade hit everyone who ever engaged her in taijutsu, regardless of what they tried.  Kabuto goes through a hullabaloo land two taps, and got shoulder rammed. Oro tongue lashed and got punched. Naruto got one finger death poked, Madara got punched, and decided he wasn't comfortable with her standing near him with magatama. Tsunade hit everyone who tried to engage her taijutsu her, and that's how Kishi shows she's good at taijutsu.


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## StickaStick (Jun 9, 2015)

N120 said:


> I'm not validation stats and I don't read the databook. It's not needed Imo. I'm arguing based on canon events in the manga.
> 
> *Pain defeated tsuande already*, I don't think a rematch would change that. Her 5s in taijutsu doesn't mean anything, we've plenty of higher tier opponents with superior abilities get outdone by seemingly lesser foes.
> 
> ...


Except that kind of never happened.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 9, 2015)

Because she never had a fight with Deva, or because Tsuande isn't a character?


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## StickaStick (Jun 9, 2015)

Unless I'm misunderstanding him here (context of the conversation), he's saying that Pain defeat Tsunade in canon which never happened; as forcing Tsunade to expend herself to save the villagers of Konaha =/= defeating her.

Basically, they never fought 1-on-1 (Pain being one entity).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 9, 2015)

That seems to be what he's saying.  Unless he means regardless of conditions, Tsunade will always lose to any path, which is silly.


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## N120 (Jun 9, 2015)

Tsunade will lose to pain 9 times out of 9. You're simply asking too much of her.

And she lost to pain as she was buried under rubble like the rest of konoha and had exhausted her chakra by this point, and This was vs only deva after one move. she lost because she was unable to continue her fight. 

Unless you guys feel she must be " dead" before we declare a winner. 

Well, She would've been without narutos intervention.

The best argument you guys have is:

1) but she got 5 in tai, that counts for something!
2) pain is nerfed and tsuande is allowed to bypass his defences with cheap tricks.
3)  tsunade can heal herself to victory.
4)  smashy-smashy,katsuyu and byakugo aren't her only abilities,  her saninNess makes her as diverse as j-man too 

None of those are convincing.

Reality is, she's not going to do anything against pain without someone supporting her in this battle.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 9, 2015)

Let's have a match of Sage Jiraiya vs Pain.  Sage Jiraiya starts getting hit by a Cho Shinra Tensei, and afterwards all his chakra is reduced to zero for some reason and he can't recharge it.

We'll call it a fight, since that's pretty much the same as what happened in canon with him losing and all.  We can use that to draw conclusions about how he'd lose against any given path 1v1.


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## N120 (Jun 9, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Let's have a match of Sage Jiraiya vs Pain.  Sage Jiraiya starts getting hit by a Cho Shinra Tensei, and afterwards all his chakra is reduced to zero for some reason and he can't recharge it.
> 
> We'll call it a fight, since that's pretty much the same as what happened in canon with him losing and all.  We can use that to draw conclusions about how he'd lose against any given path 1v1.



So you're saying pain invaded konoha, confronted tsuande, destroyed everything in his way, but it wasn't a "fight"...?

She faced him and couldn't do anything about it. That's all there was to it, it doesn't need to be more complicated than that.

And Jman=/=tsuande. 

If roles were reversed in the same situation those konoha shinobi who were saved by tsuande would be dead right now. It Completely changes the scenario as different people bring forth different strengths and weaknesses.

Jman isn't going to replicate tsunades feat, nor is tsuande going to replicate jmans feat.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 9, 2015)

> So you're saying pain invaded konoha, confronted tsuande, destroyed everything in his way, but it wasn't a "fight"...?



Are you saying my proposed Jiraiya scenario _is_ a fight?



> She faced him and couldn't do anything about it. That's all there was to it, it doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
> 
> If roles were reversed in the same situation those konoha shinobi who were saved by tsuande would be dead right now.



So she did do something.  She stopped him from killing most of the village.  In a scenario where Tsunade doesn't have to save all those people, wouldn't the situation change?  After all, Tsunade told Naruto the reason she got tired after releasing her seal vs Pain was because she had to treat the severe injuries of an entire village, and it's a different ballgame when she just needs to heal herself.

Say Pain starts the fight the same way, in an abandoned village.  Tsunade at full health with lots of chakra left, vs a Deva Path on cooldown, all the other paths in recovery.  Or more charitably, Asura rushing into her fist, and 4 other paths.  One of which, Preta, is useless against her.  I think either of those ways down differently.  

Now let's say it's just Deva and he uses CST at the start.  Tsunade after one self heal vs Deva who has to go 10 minutes without chakra.  Does Deva still bowl her over so bad it's not worth thinking about?


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## Sans (Jun 9, 2015)

N120 said:


> Tsunade will lose to pain 9 times out of 9. You're simply asking too much of her.



You missed an opportunity for a really shitty pun by saying Pain wins 6 times out of 6.


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## N120 (Jun 9, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> You missed an opportunity for a really shitty pun by saying Pain wins 6 times out of 6.



Pain wins 6 times out of 6.



*Spoiler*: __ 



 there's a 7th round bonus, maybe she'll be lucky? 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 or not


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## N120 (Jun 9, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Are you saying my proposed Jiraiya scenario _is_ a fight?



Are you suggesting tsuande didn't confront pain and just rolled over because she wanted to? Im giving her little more credit.

And im not sure what you expect jiraiya to do in this scenario if he exhausted all his chakra to _counter_ pains jutsu. You set him up for defeat in this scenario and I accepted that's the outcome.

The very fact that pains confronts him, uses a jutsu and jiraiya responds does constitute a fight. It doesn't need to go into a 10 round bout.



> So she did do something.  She stopped him from killing most of the village.  In a scenario where Tsunade doesn't have to save all those people, wouldn't the situation change?  After all, Tsunade told Naruto the reason she got tired after releasing her seal vs Pain was because she had to treat the severe injuries of an entire village, and it's a different ballgame when she just needs to heal herself.



True, she wouldn't have exhausted herself as soon as she did. But I don't see how she can avoid ST spam. She'd be stuck in a loop of constantly taking hits and recovering.


> Say Pain starts the fight the same way, in an abandoned village.  Tsunade at full health with lots of chakra left, vs a Deva Path on cooldown, all the other paths in recovery.  Or more charitably, Asura rushing into her fist, and 4 other paths.  One of which, Preta, is useless against her.  I think either of those ways down differently.



Well like you pointed out, it's charitable. that's a lot of nerfing needed, ie practically spoonfeeding her a punch. Which still doesn't even the playing field if pain can recover his bodies. 



> Now let's say it's just Deva and he uses CST at the start.  Tsunade after one self heal vs Deva who has to go 10 minutes without chakra.  Does Deva still bowl her over so bad it's not worth thinking about?



Pretty much. i think I understand the problem, people don't want tsuande to look bad, which I think is the wrong way to look at battles. Tsuande is a beast there's no denyin that, but this type of match up is bad for her. It's not the lack of skill which makes her lose but her skills are amplified elsewhere like we both stated (she saved an entire village, a feat unsurpassed in the manga) that hardly makes her look bad. She countered pain perfectly here.

Jiraiya by his nature was a hermit, who worked as a spy so he had a lot of specialised skill in infiltration, camo, traps and his trump move being sage. 

Tsunades is healing, support and when the shackles are off a brawler with immense strength.

Both did what they could given the abilities they had, and I don't see things turning out any different from what happened without like you pointed out heavily nerfing pain and being generous to the two sanins.

What I would disagree on however (irrelevant of this fight) is when people interchange the sanin. Ie Jman did a,b and c so as a sanin the other two must also be good at those things. It doesn't work.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 9, 2015)

N120 said:


> Okay, and how is that any different from tsuande using chakra in an attempt to counter ST. That also would've f'd her up,but It's her strategy to fight him as this was kabutos strategy. Why would a fighter not take counter measures? I don't get this argument.



Try harder then. You're arguing that because Kabuto used a counter measure against Tsunade to stand with her in battle (which he failed to do..but for the sake of argument, lets say he did) that he is just as skilled/talented as she is. This is not true. Tsunade > Kabuto, its just that his many advantages over Tsunade allow him to mitigate much of the power gap between them. _Likewise_, Pein > Tsunade under any normal circumstance, and I'm not arguing otherwise. Its just that Tsunade's advantage over him (knowledge on his abilities) gives her a means to counter his abilities and stand with him in battle. 

I never said a fighter wouldn't take counter measures, but doing so based on prior knowledge of your opponent doesn't make you as strong as they are.



> Also flamingrain implied that kabuto couldn't match up to her, so he  decided to run, but the previous pages States his reasons weren't solely for tsunade, but he took into account the presence of jiraiya who he feared would ambush them.


 
Why would that battlefield have had any impact on whether Jiraiya helped Tsunade or not? He's a Sannin, and an S Class shinobi. If he wanted to find Tsunade, he would, regardless of whether or not Orochimaru and Kabuto ran for a few miles. They know this, they aren't stupid. Nothing was ever said about him ambushing them either.

The exact wording of that conversation was:

_SFX: KABOOM (Tsunade punches wall)_

*Kabuto:* _Its a bit tight here for a battle_
*Orochimaru:* _Thinking of moving?_
*Kabuto:* _I think we'd better_

When Kabuto says:

*Kabuto:* _I saw someone with Tsunade's companion we should be wary of_

Its part of a separate conversation. He doesn't note that Jiraiya's presence is any reason to change battlefields, he just warns Orochimaru that Jiraiya is nearby and that he will probably join the fight at some point.



> And that is part of his battle strategy. What exactly is he doing wrong here? Is this somehow unfair?



None of those things are things that Kabuto regularly does against his opponents. The only reason he did so against Tsunade was because he had full knowledge on her abilities prior, because of Orochimaru. In a scenario where Kabuto fought her without Orochimaru's help, he probably wouldn't have thought to use that battle strategy in the first place.



> then she was outmanoeuvred.



How is running into someone's attack a demonstration of their opponent outmanoeuvring them?



> If it's not an increase in skill, then what exactly is she going to do with say 30% extra stamina?



30% extra stamina? Dude, she has enough chakra to heal thousands of people at once and chakra pump Onoki's jinton cube to be 100 times its usual size, and she had plenty of chakra left after performing both of these feats. She has much, much more than a 30% stamina boost. 

With more stamina she can fight in peak condition for longer periods of time (so that she's less likely to take hits and more likely to land them) and throw more chakra into her super punches, making them more devastating.



> Given he same scenario, part 2 tsunade would still be trying to land a punch on him with kabuto evading her.



And she'd land a punch on him more easily.



> What makes you say that?





I'm not sure if you're even being serious at this point.



> Again I'm not seeing the problem here. She is physically stronger sure, we have both agreed on this point. but kabuto is skilled enough to nullify her strengths and make her fight at his pace. That's how he fights.



That's how he fights _whenever his ally gives him full knowledge before the start of the match_. What if Kabuto had been alone and ran into Tsunade? He'd have had to figure out her skill set as the match went on, just as she had to figure out his. There's no telling if he'd have brought that soldier pill with him either, if he didn't know that he was fighting a Sannin.



> But she didn't. He has knowledge on a lot of shinobi as He was a root spy and informant afterall. He also had Intel on madara and itachi, but both broke free. He had Intel on Naruto and that backfired. So there is a limitation to what he can do with Intel. You're treating Intel as a bad thing, would you say the fight would be anymore different if tsuande also had knowledge of kabuto being a medic nin? I don't think so.



She didn't surpass him.. *because he had many advantages over her.* This isn't fucking rocket science. And yes, it would be different if Tsunade had intel on Kabuto. She would know that he's capable of using the Chakra Scalpel and she certainly wouldn't try tackling into him while he still has it active. Intel is fine, but when one side has more intel than the other, its an uneven field. Which means Kabuto had an advantage.



> It's also downplaying his ability, as if everything was down to Intel and nothing else. he was caught off guard by tsuande and instantly bounced back after having his nervous system scrambled, that wasn't down to Intel but pure skill and ability.



Again, I'm not insinuating that Kabuto isn't skilled, just that his ability to match Tsunade could only be done by his many advantages supplementing his skill and combat abilities (and he ultimately failed).



> But she still needs to get close perform cqc, so there's no way of avoiding his scalpels even if she knew. She still risked being hit.



Tsunade avoided all of his scalpel attacks, apart from the ones she threw herself into or got hit by while she was crippled. If Part II Tsunade fights him with equal battle stipulations, Kabuto doesn't land any crippling hits.




> The sanin didn't defeat hanzou, and all of them lost to pain. how is this even a debate?



I don't even know what this debate is anymore 

The Sannin lost to a Hanzou that was significantly stronger than the one Pein defeated. The Sannin that fought Hanzou were also weaker than they are in their old age. So really, I don't see how Pein defeating Hanzou was a better reflection of hype on him, than the young, weaker Sannin surviving against a stronger Hanzou was on them.



> But isn't that clutching at straws, where everything goes according plan and pain is nerfed. tbh She doesn't need sage mode, she needs a wider skill set to combat pain. Jiraiya heavily utilised the element of surprise and traps to counter pain, tsuande doesn't have anything like that up her sleeves. She's a no nonsense brawler type.



Tsunade can and does utilise the element of surprise in every single match she ever fights in. Again. Read my OP that I linked you to. It explains my thoughts on her ability to combat Pein's jutsu.



> Kakashi tried the same tactic, but died saving chouji. In anycase, sure she may land a hit if deva hasn't already recharged his ST before closing in on her, or didn't decide to just ST a nail in her skull.



Where is Pain going to find a nail in the center of blown up Konoha? And even if he did have S/T recharged, he isn't immune to the element of surprise. His reaction speed will be slightly delayed whenever she attacks him after appearing to lying dead on the ground.



> okay.







> When was this refuted?



When I gave you a bunch of scans that show how she's invulnerable to conventional forms of damage, even without using regeneration.



> I've addressed this point. You're comparing apples and oranges. You're assuming since Sakura can counter poison in her blood that pains chakra rods would work the same way. There's no reason to assume that.



This point was never properly addressed. Yes, the forms of damage are different are different, but the basis is the same. They both put a strain on their victims ability to manipulate chakra. If lesser Tsunade can control her chakra while her chakra control is being negatively impacted, then mama Tsunade should be able to do the same, at least to a degree. 



> She does have ways around it in theory, but I don't see why deva wouldn't just blow katsuyu away with ST which would put a halt to her plans from the get go and forcing her to restrategize.



Because it takes Tsunade all of 1 second to resummon Katsuyu, and she uses barely any chakra in doing so. 

Because Katsuyu can divide with Daibunretsu, making it impossible to target her because she sits at every angle of the battlefield. 



> Look I'm not saying tsuande is weak but if I'm honest what we saw play out in the manga, is what we'll see. I don't see how is fight will differ much in its outcome from canon.



Then I'm just very sorry that you can't fathom Tsunade's inevitable victory. ​​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 9, 2015)

> The very fact that pains confronts him, uses a jutsu and jiraiya responds does constitute a fight. It doesn't need to go into a 10 round bout.
> 
> i think I understand the problem, people don't want tsuande to look bad, which I think is the wrong way to look at battles.



Sarutobi's first fight?

Jiraiya fights and defeats Itachi and Kisame?

The problem is that under your definition of fights, those are fights, and yet almost anyone else will tell you those weren't fights.  The first one is a joke, and people would tell you Itachi and Kisame ran away _instead_ of fighting in the second one. Almost no one has said that Tsunade beats all six paths, so that's not the issue. Rather, it's that your reasoning is based on counting that as a fight, and citing her loss in it as the reason she can't even fight one.



> True, she wouldn't have exhausted herself as soon as she did. But I don't see how she can avoid ST spam. She'd be stuck in a loop of constantly taking hits and recovering.



Bracing against ST works pretty well if you're strong enough.  Putting chakra in your feet works too.  I say chakra in your feet, because obviously those clones gripped the ground somehow to stop from flying into the air.  If they didn't chakra cling, then it would have worked out all the better for them if they did.

Of course you need to be durable, and either have 100 people bracing you, or the strength of 100.


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## N120 (Jun 9, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Try harder then. You're arguing that because Kabuto used a counter measure against Tsunade to stand with her in battle (which he failed to do..but for the sake of argument, lets say he did) that he is just as skilled/talented as she is. This is not true. Tsunade > Kabuto, its just that his many advantages over Tsunade allow him to mitigate much of the power gap between them. _Likewise_, Pein > Tsunade under any normal circumstance, and I'm not arguing otherwise. Its just that Tsunade's advantage over him (knowledge on his abilities) gives her a means to counter his abilities and stand with him in battle.
> 
> I never said a fighter wouldn't take counter measures, but doing so based on prior knowledge of your opponent doesn't make you as strong as they are.​





If you accept kabuto is able to nullify her attacks and level the playing field in his favour then surely that means he is as skillful as she is. It make little sence to call him inferior then backtrack when you realise she couldn't defeat him, in cqc no less. 



> Why would that battlefield have had any impact on whether Jiraiya helped Tsunade or not? He's a Sannin, and an S Class shinobi. If he wanted to find Tsunade, he would, regardless of whether or not Orochimaru and Kabuto ran for a few miles. They know this, they aren't stupid. Nothing was ever said about him ambushing them either.
> 
> The exact wording of that conversation was:
> 
> ...



Nowhere in that convo is he suggesting he is unwilling to confront her in battle, he did just that in a location that lets him evade her attacks more easily and counter. Him mentioning jiraiya is enough to suggest he had other things on his minds other than fighting tsuande when he made his calculations.

And of course location plays a part in outcome of battle, there'd be no point in being picky about where people fight otherwise. 



> None of those things are things that Kabuto regularly does against his opponents. The only reason he did so against Tsunade was because he had full knowledge on her abilities prior, because of Orochimaru. In a scenario where Kabuto fought her without Orochimaru's help, he probably wouldn't have thought to use that battle strategy in the first place.



Oro didn't help him vs tsuande. He mentioned her punches can kill during the fight and he accepted that advice when he saw the impact her punches made.



> How is running into someone's attack a demonstration of their opponent outmanoeuvring them?



She didn't run into his attack.




> 30% extra stamina? Dude, she has enough chakra to heal thousands of people at once and chakra pump Onoki's jinton cube to be 100 times its usual size, and she had plenty of chakra left after performing both of these feats. She has much, much more than a 30% stamina boost.
> 
> With more stamina she can fight in peak condition for longer periods of time (so that she's less likely to take hits and more likely to land them) and throw more chakra into her super punches, making them more devastating.



Which is the point I made. More stamina =/=skill. She can fight longer not better.



> And she'd land a punch on him more easily.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Based on what? You keep making an argument over one thing then jumping to conclusions over something else. It's a red herring.



> That's how he fights _whenever his ally gives him full knowledge before the start of the match_. What if Kabuto had been alone and ran into Tsunade? He'd have had to figure out her skill set as the match went on, just as she had to figure out his. There's no telling if he'd have brought that soldier pill with him either, if he didn't know that he was fighting a Sannin.



He evaded most of her attacks without the soldier pills. 



> She didn't surpass him.. *because he had many advantages over her.* This isn't fucking rocket science. And yes, it would be different if Tsunade had intel on Kabuto. She would know that he's capable of using the Chakra Scalpel and she certainly wouldn't try tackling into him while he still has it active. Intel is fine, but when one side has more intel than the other, its an uneven field. Which means Kabuto had an advantage.



why are you getting upset? Your whole argument is that kabuto wouldn't win if tsuande had the advantage, but that would be okay because it's tsuande? Kabuto stopped her fighting to her strengths and made it an even playing field, it's part of his skill. gathering Intel is his thing, hes a trained spy. You want him to drop an ability? 



> Again, I'm not insinuating that Kabuto isn't skilled, just that his ability to match Tsunade could only be done by his many advantages supplementing his skill and combat abilities (and he ultimately failed).



Failed to do what?



> Tsunade avoided all of his scalpel attacks, apart from the ones she threw herself into or got hit by while she was crippled. If Part II Tsunade fights him with equal battle stipulations, Kabuto doesn't land any crippling hits.



so you're insinuating kabuto isn't skilled to pull off what he did. But again, I keep asking this with little feedback, based on what? Kabuto didn't become more skilled in cqc or evasion tactics with Intel or soldier pills, it was pure skill. He landed those hits based on pure battle ability. What makes you think he can't pull it off again?



> I don't even know what this debate is anymore
> 
> The Sannin lost to a Hanzou that was significantly stronger than the one Pein defeated. The Sannin that fought Hanzou were also weaker than they are in their old age. So really, I don't see how Pein defeating Hanzou was a better reflection of hype on him, than the young, weaker Sannin surviving against a stronger Hanzou was on them.



jmans reaction says otherwise. In anycase pain beat them all and their troops. How is that less hype than sanin surviving against Hanzo?   :





> Tsunade can and does utilise the element of surprise in every single match she ever fights in. Again. Read my OP that I linked you to. It explains my thoughts on her ability to combat Pein's jutsu.
> 
> Where is Pain going to find a nail in the center of blown up Konoha? And even if he did have S/T recharged, he isn't immune to the element of surprise. His reaction speed will be slightly delayed whenever she attacks him after appearing to lying dead on the ground.



He could simply walk away and never get close, if she gets up after that plan fails she'd be looking at him red faced. She has little option but to play dead in the centre of a blown up konoha as she has no other means of pulling a surprise attack, or maybe she'll get a rocket/laser beam headed her way to finish the job. So many options are available to him yet he'd fall for the oldest trick in the book, what are the chances of that?



> When I gave you a bunch of scans that show how she's invulnerable to conventional forms of damage, even without using regeneration.



I've countered them.



> This point was never properly addressed. Yes, the forms of damage are different are different, but the basis is the same. They both put a strain on their victims ability to manipulate chakra. If lesser Tsunade can control her chakra while her chakra control is being negatively impacted, then mama Tsunade should be able to do the same, at least to a degree.



That's assuming it's poison and not a superior chakra force manipulating their opponents. Pain is manipulating his chakra, poison is far more stable an entity and predictable in its activity within the body.



> Because it takes Tsunade all of 1 second to resummon Katsuyu, and she uses barely any chakra in doing so.
> 
> Because Katsuyu can divide with Daibunretsu, making it impossible to target her because she sits at every angle of the battlefield.



Deva could be neo and the katsuyu agent smiths sarrounding him, ST still blows them away.



> Then I'm just very sorry that you can't fathom Tsunade's inevitable victory.


​
Neither can you, but you're trying damn hard. Dream away.


----------



## Jad (Jun 9, 2015)

I'm a little confused.

Are we still discussing if Tsunade can beat Pain?


----------



## N120 (Jun 9, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sarutobi's first fight?
> 
> Jiraiya fights and defeats Itachi and Kisame?
> 
> The problem is that under your definition of fights, those are fights, and yet almost anyone else will tell you those weren't fights.  The first one is a joke, and people would tell you Itachi and Kisame ran away _instead_ of fighting in the second one. Almost no one has said that Tsunade beats all six paths, so that's not the issue. Rather, it's that your reasoning is based on counting that as a fight, and citing her loss in it as the reason she can't even fight one.



Did you really just bring up Naruto vs saru as a counter? 

Let's get a little serious with the second scan, that skirmish fits into a definition of a fight sure. But that scenario is different from the he one you proposed is it not?  They escaped but were still able to continue the fight if they so wished, tsuande was in no position to do the same vs pain. Do you not see the difference ?





> Bracing against ST works pretty well if you're strong enough.  Putting chakra in your feet works too.  I say chakra in your feet, because obviously those clones gripped the ground somehow to stop from flying into the air.  If they didn't chakra cling, then it would have worked out all the better for them if they did.
> 
> Of course you need to be durable, and either have 100 people bracing you, or the strength of 100.



Right so tsunade will just dig her heals in defiantly and brace the ST Storm like "hit me" 

Well sounds like a plan. Can she pull it off though?


----------



## RBL (Jun 9, 2015)

Jad said:


> I'm a little confused.
> 
> Are we still discussing if Tsunade can beat Pain?



Tsunade can defeat everyone in the BD


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2015)

Jad said:


> I'm a little confused.
> 
> Are we still discussing if Tsunade can beat Pain?



I'm arguing over the definition of the word, "fight."

Did you really just bring up Naruto vs saru as a counter?

Sarutobi confronted Naruto.  Naruto used a jutsu and Sarutobi responded to it.  It doesn't need to a 10 round match to be considered a fight.

"She (He) faced him and couldn't do anything about it. That's all there was to it, it doesn't need to be more complicated than that."



> Let's get a little serious with the second scan, that skirmish fits into a definition of a fight sure. But that scenario is different from the he one you proposed is it not? They escaped but were still able to continue the fight if they so wished, tsuande was in no position to do the same vs pain. Do you not see the difference ?



Okay, so what are you saying?  Now it only counts as a fight if they could have continued to fight?  Or if they can't continue to fight?  What happened to keeping it simple and not needing to over-complicate it?


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2015)

Don't underestimate Naruto's transformation jutsu.

It fooled Kaguya, too.


----------



## Joakim3 (Jun 10, 2015)

Tsunade gets flogged with absolutely zero difficulty, Why is this even being debated still?

*CqC*
She *can't* engage all 6 in CqC mainly do to several points. Baring the second Chikushodo they are all as fast or faster than she is coupled with Nagato's own reflexes and shared vision. She's never tagging any of them.... ever, when multiple paths have lol jumped FRS's or physically reacted to SM users. Oh and she also has the lovely disadvantage in the fact she can be blindsided at *anytime* by any one of 6 bodies (a tendency Nagato likes to use, as in his fight with Jiraiya)

If (or rather when) she looses track of Ningendo or Shurado she's royally fucked as the former one shots, while the latter has the ability to cripple her if not outright kill her with _Laser Explsion_ & _Missiles_.... all of which process Tendo can accelerate via a casual BT in the direction of said path(s)

.... Hell if you really want to add salt to the already very open wound.... any path(s) can simply extended a chakra rod and ram that shit through her skull while she's preoccupied, GG

*Stamina*
Nagato isn't fighting the village, nuking it twice nor reviving the entire fucking population.....  Tsunade has zero hopes of outlasting that man especially when you consider that the paths can be revived via Jigakudo (who can casually be kept safe) via the Chameleon or Bird Summons.

Nagato can dish out more longer than Tsuande heal and recover from

*Ninjustu*
So long as Tendo is in play Tsuande is literally going to be treated like a rag doll the entire match. 

Tendo & Shurado are honestly all thats need in keeping her at bay via nukage from _Shinra Tensei_, _Laser Explosion_ & _Missiles_. If you wan't to use the chakra to feet as a counter to ST.... Nagoto's entire purpose of nuking Konoha was to show Tsuande you can't do jack shit to overwhelming power... something he has in spade.  If Nagato is feeling extra sinister that particular day, he _Bansho Tenin's_ her into the latter two to ensure lethality. 

Gakido is rather useless apart from the fact it can act as a meat shield or ambush piece, granted _Fujutsu Kuyin_ would deal with Katsuya The Forbidden Ones _Acid Ocean_ 

Ningendo will probably be Nagato's go-to in taking Tsunade down. As fun as nuking Tsuande and the surrounding landscape off the map is... it's not very chakra efficient while Ningendo is. Nagato simply uses Tendo, Shurado & Gakido as bait/support and simply lines Ningendo up for an ambush.... Head tap & GG from there 

Chikushodo is also a lovely addition as the summons just means more shit that can be thrown at Tsunade and used as meat shields, and or distractions. If Katsuya comes out (it won't as Tsuande never summons her unless she has support or to strictly heal). Nagato summons the dog and it eats her or if he's bored... uses a boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ and sends her into another Konoha county

Oh and then we have the support summons like the Chameleon than can hide the baths and Jigukudo, so now Tsunade has to deal with _Shinra Tensei_ & _Laser Explosion_ hide and seek or the bird which allows omnipotence to whatever paths sits on top of it

Jigukudo is self explanatory and makes Tsuande's job that much more difficult 

*Overall Analysis*
Tsunade is out manned (significantly), can't win in a battle of attrition, only has one way to injure the paths via CqC and she's facing an opponent which can be negate and counter her only method off offense using only CqC or Ninjutsu let alone a conjunction of both, and have the versatility, hax, firepower and survivability to make anything else Tsunade brings to the table irrelevant 

She gets stomped with or without CST/CT/Gedo Mazo


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2015)

Actually, with a lack of ranged techniques, Pain can end this with a BT & Shurado blade to stab her and have the others gangbang her with chakra rods until the point Nagato has her unable to move.

Considering how SM Naruto couldn't do much, having ranged attacks like Frog Katas, or a simple punch with the strenght to severely hurt a path, i don't see Tsunade managing to punch Deva either or reacting with enough time to punch (depending on how fast Deva pulls her). So, yes. Without CT and CST, Pain can still kill her.

Therefore, the match can end as swift as that. But what's being debated is a Tsunade vs Tendo, i guess. And some other stuff such as Sarutobi vs Naruto .


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Tsunade gets flogged with absolutely zero difficulty, Why is this even being debated still?
> 
> *CqC*
> She *can't* engage all 6 in CqC mainly do to several points. Baring the second Chikushodo they are all as fast or faster than she is coupled with Nagato's own reflexes and shared vision. She's never tagging any of them.... ever, when multiple paths have lol jumped FRS's or physically reacted to SM users. Oh and she also has the lovely disadvantage in the fact she can be blindsided at *anytime* by any one of 6 bodies (a tendency Nagato likes to use, as in his fight with Jiraiya)
> ...



she did engage 5 susanoo clones in cqc though
now 5 susanoo clones in cqc vastly exceed pain cqc abilities

granted if naraka or human path grab her its over. but then i am doubting their ability to actually grab her 

if not for deva really pain should loose


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, with a lack of ranged techniques, Pain can end this with a BT & Shurado blade to stab her and have the others gangbang her with chakra rods until the point Nagato has her unable to move.
> 
> Considering how SM Naruto couldn't do much, having ranged attacks like Frog Katas, or a simple punch with the strenght to severely hurt a path, i don't see Tsunade managing to punch Deva either or reacting with enough time to punch (depending on how fast Deva pulls her). So, yes. Without CT and CST, Pain can still kill her.
> 
> Therefore, the match can end as swift as that. But what's being debated is a Tsunade vs Tendo, i guess. And some other stuff such as Sarutobi vs Naruto .



Mads stabbed Sakura of all people with a rod, and she still got a punch off.  Madara's rods are better than Nagatos, just like he's better at everything rinnegan.  Bad strategy imo.  But BT is always a bad strategy imo.



> Don't underestimate Naruto's transformation jutsu.
> 
> It fooled Kaguya, too.



It is canon that strong people are weak to pervy techniques.  I guess Naruto's win was legit.


----------



## N120 (Jun 10, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Mads stabbed Sakura of all people with a rod, and she still got a punch off.  Madara's rods are better than Nagatos, just like he's better at everything rinnegan.  Bad strategy imo.  But BT is always a bad strategy imo.
> 
> 
> 
> It is canon that strong people are weak to pervy techniques.  I guess Naruto's win was legit.



Do you mean the sasunoo sword? They are two different types of weapons.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Mads stabbed Sakura of all people with a rod, and she still got a punch off.  Madara's rods are better than Nagatos, just like he's better at everything rinnegan.  Bad strategy imo.  But BT is always a bad strategy imo.



That's one rod. And Madara probably didn't bothered to control her. Madara was able to paralyze the more powerful Hashirama with them. 6 different rods through the body and Nagato attempting to control might leave her down for a finisher (Considering Nagato should have a more powerful chakra, too).

But even if he can't. An opening like that for a soul rip should seal the deal, too.



> It is canon that strong people are weak to pervy techniques.  I guess Naruto's win was legit.



I agree.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2015)

Is chakra disruption active or passive, or is just the controlling your body active while the screwing you chakra was passive?  For the most part it seems like you got screwed if the rod entered you, but on a few occasions where he commandeered control of Obito, it seemed active. 

I disagree with Nagato having a more powerful chakra than JJ Madara.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 10, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Tsunade gets flogged with absolutely zero difficulty, Why is this even being debated still?


Because of assertions like this (_gets flogged with absolutely zero difficulty_) that are clearly gross exaggerations. 



> *CqC*
> She *can't* engage all 6 in CqC mainly do to several points. Baring the second Chikushodo they are all as fast or faster than she is coupled with Nagato's own reflexes and shared vision. She's never tagging any of them.... ever, when multiple paths have lol jumped FRS's or physically reacted to SM users. Oh and she also has the lovely disadvantage in the fact she can be blindsided at *anytime* by any one of 6 bodies (a tendency Nagato likes to use, as in his fight with Jiraiya)
> 
> If (or rather when) she looses track of Ningendo or Shurado she's royally fucked as the former one shots, while the latter has the ability to cripple her if not outright kill her with _Laser Explsion_ & _Missiles_.... all of which process Tendo can accelerate via a casual BT in the direction of said path(s)
> ...


Of course the same individual who managed to tangle with five of Madara's Susanoo clones in CQC and _survive _couldn't possibly manage to do the same with six comparatively less dangerous Paths 

I also see you've highlighted Pain's advantage of shared vision, while ignoring the fact that if Tsunade has Katsuyu spread throughout the battlefield she will effectively have shared vision as well with mini-Katsuyu on her should relaying any blindside attacks that Pain might attempt. In fact, if Pain somehow is not cognizant of this fact Tsunade may very well bait one of the Paths into attempting a blindside CQC attack which would, of course, end with them getting crushed.  

Ningendo can one-shot but that requires it actually getting its hands on Tsunade to begin with. CQC is pointless because Tsunade is going to overpower any of the Paths in a CQC situation so Ningendo will need the aid of the other Paths to pull it off. Problem is, again, Tsunade will have her own version of shared vision via Katsuyu so multiple blindside attacks are likely out of the question. That's leaves Tendo as the obvious choice to BT or ST (depending on Ningendo's position) Tsunade into Ningendo but as I stated earlier in the thread there are ways for Tsunade to get around such as situation. One of them being focusing the appropriate amount of chakra into her feet with her pin-point chakra control to give herself a better foundation against being pushed and pulled around. If that doesn't work than Tsuande can as well summon a sizeable portion of Katsuyu in order to block LoS of the Path she's being sent towards. Let's not also forget that any combination attack that Pain tries to pull off will also have to deal with Katsuyu spitting acid their way which will inevitably disrupt some formations and if they're not careful will be roasted by said acid, with the exception of Gaikedo who can just absorb it.

To your point about Shurado, I doubt its going to be doing any irreparable damage to Tsunade considering she can brush off things like this with her Byakugō:
1
1



> *Stamina*
> Nagato isn't fighting the village, nuking it twice nor reviving the entire fucking population.....  Tsunade has zero hopes of outlasting that man especially when you consider that the paths can be revived via Jigakudo (who can casually be kept safe) via the Chameleon or Bird Summons.
> 
> Nagato can dish out more longer than Tsuande heal and recover from


I seriously doubt this will come down to a battle of attrition, not when Tsunade and Nagato are two of the greater chakra tanks the manga has shown. What Tsunade did in the war alone could be compared favorably to the chakra feats Nagato displayed while emaciated. This is where a "healthy" Nagato that would be something else, but as far as this matchup is concerned he isn't. 

Jigokudo continuously reviving the Paths is a problem, particularly if he's camped-out on a flying summon, but there's are two issues with that. For one, each time a Path is revived it takes a longer amount of them then previously, as stated by Konan. This means that if Paths are being cleaned out Pain will eventually reached a point where it comes only send two or three Paths at a time at Tsunade because the others are with Jigokudo taking time to be revived; and we know Pain is considering easier to deal with once it's numbers are whittled down. Secondly, this assumes Tsunade won't actually take notice of the the fact that Paths can and are being revived, which is highly unlikely considering Katsuyu is there to feed her this information. The obvious thing to do would be to have Katsuyu spit acid the flying summons way and probably eventually hit it, and even if it doesn't it will make it difficult for Jigokudo to actually revive the other Paths amidst all the commotion.



> *Ninjustu*
> So long as Tendo is in play Tsuande is literally going to be treated like a rag doll the entire match.


Except for the fact that there is a cool-down that can be exploited, particularly if Tendo makes the mistake of trying to BT Tsunade into a black rod and ends up being pulverized instead; a possibility I wouldn't rule out with Nagato's limited knowledge on her durability and strength.



> Tendo & Shurado are honestly all thats need in keeping her at bay via nukage from _Shinra Tensei_, _Laser Explosion_ & _Missiles_. If you wan't to use the chakra to feet as a counter to ST.... Nagoto's entire purpose of nuking Konoha was to show Tsuande you can't do jack shit to overwhelming power... something he has in spade.  If Nagato is feeling extra sinister that particular day, he _Bansho Tenin's_ her into the latter two to ensure lethality.


Nagato doesn't have CST here at his disposal (per threads stipulations). An enchanced BT or ST similar to the one he used against the toads might do the trick, or it might not. I'm dubious as to whether if Tsunade focuses enough chakra into her feet if Tendo can move her. I would suspect yes, not with any kind of certainty. 



> Gakido is rather useless apart from the fact it can act as a meat shield or ambush piece, granted _Fujutsu Kuyin_ would deal with Katsuya The Forbidden Ones _Acid Ocean_


Agreed; although Gakido will have difficult time absorbing any acid and dealing with Tsunade at the same time. Shared vision will help in this area but even with that it has been shown it shared vision can be worked around with cleverly devised distractions. I mean, Tsunade can just as easily use a smoke bomb as Naruto can.



> Ningendo will probably be Nagato's go-to in taking Tsunade down. As fun as nuking Tsuande and the surrounding landscape off the map is... it's not very chakra efficient while Ningendo is. Nagato simply uses Tendo, Shurado & Gakido as bait/support and simply lines Ningendo up for an ambush.... Head tap & GG from there


Katsuyus' "shared vision" renders ambush virtually useless. 



> Chikushodo is also a lovely addition as the summons just means more shit that can be thrown at Tsunade and used as meat shields, and or distractions. If Katsuya comes out (it won't as Tsuande never summons her unless she has support or to strictly heal). Nagato summons the dog and it eats her or if he's bored... uses a boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ and sends her into another Konoha county


Just because she had support in the form of Jiraiya when she summoned it against Oro, doesn't mean she wouldn't have done so without him. If anything, one could say it was to match summon with summon, and considering Chikushodo loves to summon spam, that means Katsuyu is seeing the battlefield quickly as well.

Katsuyu can be de-summoned and re-summoned worst case scenario if she gets sent flying. Also also take into consideration that there very well may be multiple large sized portions of Katsuyu around the battlefield so even if he sends one flying there will be others around. Furthermore, if you've highlighted the fact that Tendo will have not just Tsunade to take into consideration but multiple Katsuyu's as well, meaning if he's forced to send one of the Katsuyu's flying he's left himself open to a counter-attack during his 5-sec cool-down. 



> Oh and then we have the support summons like the Chameleon than can hide the baths and Jigukudo, so now Tsunade has to deal with _Shinra Tensei_ & _Laser Explosion_ hide and seek or the bird which allows omnipotence to whatever paths sits on top of it


Personally I think Tsunade would be fine with the idea of having to deal with lesser number of Paths as once if some of them are camping out in the Chameleon 

But I don't see the Chameleon staying invisible very often with acid being sprayed all over the battlefield which will inevitably find the Chameleon's mark and expose his position. All-in-all I see many people here severely underestimating the tremendous impact that Katsuyu could and probably _would _have in this fight.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Is chakra disruption active or passive, or is just the controlling your body active while the screwing you chakra was passive?  For the most part it seems like you got screwed if the rod entered you, but on a few occasions where he commandeered control of Obito, it seemed active.



Madara neutralized Hashirama after he went to take control on Obito, but before that, Hashirama was fighting normally.



> I disagree with Nagato having a more powerful chakra than JJ Madara.



I meant Nagato having more powerful chakra than Tsunade. Madara could neutralize Hashi, who's more powerful than him. Nagato, even if it's not as good as Mads, should do it with Tsunade, who's not as powerful as Hashirama, and is not more powerful than Nagato.

Of course, not with one rod.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 10, 2015)

Tsuande should be able to summon 10% Katsuyu actually. Considering:
A) she has 3 years of chakra compared to her base level of Chakra.
B) she isn't using 10% Katusyu to heal the entire Shinobi alliance, and instead would use Katsuyu's actual size and self abilities. That would mean she would also have 2 layers of Byakago, meaning nothing but soul rip would kill her.

Tsuandes chances got better....


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Madara neutralized Hashirama after he went to take control on Obito, but before that, Hashirama was fighting normally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That scene was weird.  He didn't seem to have any rods in him before then.  They sort of just....sprouted.  Madara also had his chakra sealed.

Oh wait, they appear and disappear between drawings.  

Hashirama is taking a knee panting because he has rods in him, even when Madara's chakra is sealed.  But he could drop pillars.  Here he has no rods.  Now he has rods.  
Now he's totally full of rods.

Also, here he is making shaking lines and rattly sound effects implying it's hard for him to move.  But then later Madara makes the hand seal and Hashirama says he can't move.  

So either the rods do mess you up some always, and the hand seal was just to strengthen it, which is why Hashirama as an edo was kneeling even when Madara was unable to transmit chakra, and shaking pre-hand seal, or Kishi screwed up the sequence of events royally.  Or that hand seal did something else, like activate his sensing so he could blitz everyone without eyeballs.  Also, lol at Madara using Preta Path with no eyes.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> That scene was weird.  He didn't seem to have any rods in him before then.  They sort of just....sprouted.  Madara also had his chakra sealed.
> 
> Oh wait, they appear and disappear between drawings.
> 
> ...



I would say Kishimoto was incredibly drunk when he made that chapter. Or like you said, a handseal makes the binding stronger, or both, actually. Madara using Susano'o and Preta without eyes is fucked up.

Another think that makes me believe that is when Jiraiya is stabbed for the first time. He doesn't feel it inmediately. . After a brief conversation Pain's eyes are seen behind, as if Nagato activated it.

Doesn't take away that Kishimoto was drunk, though,


----------



## beyondsouske (Jun 11, 2015)

Lol this isn't even a battle, Tsunade gets all her chakra stolen therefore she can no longer heal and  not to mention chibaku tensei.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 11, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Is chakra disruption active or passive, or is just the controlling your body active while the screwing you chakra was passive?  For the most part it seems like you got screwed if the rod entered you, but on a few occasions where he commandeered control of Obito, it seemed active.
> 
> I disagree with Nagato having a more powerful chakra than JJ Madara.



There passive in the fact there always the users chakra in them, but can become active when the user tries to exert control (Nagato attempting to control Naruto's initial BSM or Madara controlling Obito)


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## Joakim3 (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> she did engage 5 susanoo clones in cqc though
> now 5 susanoo clones in cqc vastly exceed pain cqc abilities
> 
> granted if naraka or human path grab her its over. but then i am doubting their ability to actually grab her
> ...



Fighting 5 Sasuno'o clones (with the user dicking around mind you) is a lot different than fighting 6 human opponents.

The _Sasuno'o_ are giant targets that don't attempt to dodge or avoid hits.... the Paths will be actively avoiding said CqC all the while poses weapons that can circumnavigate her durability 

Why would grabbing her be difficult? She's can't keep track of six people simultaneously, the paths are going to slip her vision and she will be downed via chakra rods


----------



## Joakim3 (Jun 11, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Because of assertions like this (_gets flogged with absolutely zero difficulty_) that are clearly gross exaggerations.



Unfortunately it's not.... The paths are some of the worst match ups for linear fighter like Tsuande. Restrict Tendo and by all means the match is more "fair" but the fact the paths have to be gimped in the first place shows the power gap



StickaStick said:


> Of course the same individual who managed to tangle with five of Madara's Susanoo clones in CQC and _survive _couldn't possibly manage to do the same with six comparatively less dangerous Paths



....and Ei stated she was going to die if she continued to engage them in that manner.

Second fighting 5 lumbering Sasuno'o is a LOT different than fighting 6 bodies that are _all_ as fast if not faster than you, have CqC skills better than hers (when you consider they can tango with Kakshi & SM users) and will _not try to tank her hits with their bodies_ and have attacks that circumnavigate her durability 



StickaStick said:


> I also see you've highlighted Pain's advantage of shared vision, while ignoring the fact that if Tsunade has Katsuyu spread throughout the battlefield she will effectively have shared vision as well with mini-Katsuyu on her should relaying any blindside attacks that Pain might attempt. In fact, if Pain somehow is not cognizant of this fact Tsunade may very well bait one of the Paths into attempting a blindside CQC attack which would, of course, end with them getting crushed.



Again when has Tsunade ever summoned Katsuya against and opponent without back up or to do the specific task of healing? Assuming she does decide to summon Katsuya, Nagato escalates the fight... Summons the entire Animal Armada, while having Tendo & Shurado level the landscape via nukage.

Even if Katsuya manages alert Tsunade of a blind side.... the paths can be in 6+ places at once, Tsunade can't.



StickaStick said:


> Ningendo can one-shot but that requires it actually getting its hands on Tsunade to begin with. CQC is pointless because Tsunade is going to overpower any of the Paths in a CQC situation so Ningendo will need the aid of the other Paths to pull it off. Problem is, again, Tsunade will have her own version of shared vision via Katsuyu so multiple blindside attacks are likely out of the question. That's leaves Tendo as the obvious choice to BT or ST (depending on Ningendo's position) Tsunade into Ningendo but as I stated earlier in the thread there are ways for Tsunade to get around such as situation.



Which isn't that hard considering the manner the Paths like to fight which is controlled chaos and overwhelming said opponent via numbers advantage. Nagato is and has more than willing to sacrifice a path or two to enable a GG hit. He sends in Gakido & Shurado as bait to allow Ningendo to sneak up..... tap on the head and fight over

Katsuya has zero way of intervening when with Tendo & Chikushodo keeping her on a leash



StickaStick said:


> One of them being focusing the appropriate amount of chakra into her feet with her pin-point chakra control to give herself a better foundation against being pushed and pulled around. If that doesn't work than Tsuande can as well summon a sizeable portion of Katsuyu in order to block LoS of the Path she's being sent towards. Let's not also forget that any combination attack that Pain tries to pull off will also have to deal with Katsuyu spitting acid their way which will inevitably disrupt some formations and if they're not careful will be roasted by said acid, with the exception of Gaikedo who can just absorb it.



Which was a theoretical counter.... something that was never even attempted and that Nagato flat out laughed out when he said you can do nothing in the face of _overwhelming_ power, key word... overwhelming, something Nagato has in spades

You do realize Katsuya can have chakra rods rammed through her just like Tsunade..... no more splitting or spitting acid



StickaStick said:


> To your point about Shurado, I doubt its going to be doing any irreparable damage to Tsunade considering she can brush off things like this with her Byakugō:
> He doesn't feel it inmediately.
> He doesn't feel it inmediately.



I'd love to see Tsunade waltz through several _Missiles_ and _Laser Explosion_ (that latter which vaporized several city blocks of Konoha and was going to leave Killer B without a head and torso)

Her _Byakugo_ is great if she's alive... it serves no purpose if she is killed right on the spot. Even if she survives at best she's left significantly crippled and the paths have their way with her as _Byakugo's_ healing process takes in effect



StickaStick said:


> I seriously doubt this will come down to a battle of attrition, not when Tsunade and Nagato are two of the greater chakra tanks the manga has shown. What Tsunade did in the war alone could be compared favorably to the chakra feats Nagato displayed while emaciated. This is where a "healthy" Nagato that would be something else, but as far as this matchup is concerned he isn't.



Her feats in the war wouldn't put her on par with Nagato... not when she was utilizing Naruto's KN1 chakra shroud or was healed by Karin on separate ocasions 

We saw her chakra cap, and that was healing the village during Nagato's raise and protecting a good slug of citizens from CST at which point she fell into a coma. Nagato kept on chugging along, fought SM Naruto, then KN6/KN8 in which he had to nuke that with CT, and still had the chakra left to damn near revive the entire population of Konoha

Baring Hashirama, Madara, the Biju & God tier.... he comfortably has the most chakra capacity. 



StickaStick said:


> Jigokudo continuously reviving the Paths is a problem, particularly if he's camped-out on a flying summon, but there's are two issues with that. For one, each time a Path is revived it takes a longer amount of them then previously, as stated by Konan. This means that if Paths are being cleaned out Pain will eventually reached a point where it comes only send two or three Paths at a time at Tsunade because the others are with Jigokudo taking time to be revived; and we know Pain is considering easier to deal with once it's numbers are whittled down.



Kona stated that because of CST's mechanics. She was comparing the paths recovery time being slower since the last time Nagato used CST, partly due to Nagato's waining health and the chakra he'd already spend on invading Konoha.



StickaStick said:


> Secondly, this assumes Tsunade won't actually take notice of the the fact that Paths can and are being revived, which is highly unlikely considering Katsuyu is there to feed her this information. The obvious thing to do would be to have Katsuyu spit acid the flying summons way and probably eventually hit it, and even if it doesn't it will make it difficult for Jigokudo to actually revive the other Paths amidst all the commotion.



We saw in the fight against SM Naruto that Jigakudo can revive paths  in such speed that neither SM Naruto, Shima or Fukasaku let along the Gama trio noticed Gakido's revival until after it intercepted FRS. 

They have to many other things to worry about like Tendo & Shurado nuking them while being attacked from 5 other angle via summons and other paths



StickaStick said:


> Except for the fact that there is a cool-down that can be exploited, particularly if Tendo makes the mistake of trying to BT Tsunade into a black rod and ends up being pulverized instead; a possibility I wouldn't rule out with Nagato's limited knowledge on her durability and strength.



Naruto to use _Kage Bunshin_, feints and FRS diversion tactics to get by a LONE Tendo's cool down. 

Tsunade is never reaching Tendo in ~5 seconds, when she has to go through 5 other Paths, potential summons and the Nagato can always do the troll move and.. you know... have Tendo run (something he did with KN6)



StickaStick said:


> Nagato doesn't have CST here at his disposal (per threads stipulations). An enchanced BT or ST similar to the one he used against the toads might do the trick, or it might not. I'm dubious as to whether if Tsunade focuses enough chakra into her feet if Tendo can move her. I would suspect yes, not with any kind of certainty.



Which makes zero difference to the outcome of the fight

It required an entity of KN6's to _physically anchor itself to the ground_ to resist a moderate level _Shinra Tensei_.

Again and unproven theoretical counter than Nagato himself openly mocked and has the feats to back up his standpoint on it. Overwhelming power will trump.

Nagato nukes the shit out of her with a boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ and she is sent into to the horizon



StickaStick said:


> Agreed; although Gakido will have difficult time absorbing any acid and dealing with Tsunade at the same time. Shared vision will help in this area but even with that it has been shown it shared vision can be worked around with cleverly devised distractions. I mean, Tsunade can just as easily use a smoke bomb as Naruto can.



Why would it have to deal with Tsunade?... Tendo & Shurado are plenty to devote Tsunade's 100% attention. 

Naruto's tacts only worked because Nagato positioned the paths in a way to stall for Tendo's cool down. Jiraiya attempted the same tactic in his fight but was steamrolled as the paths surrounded him to cover all possible blind spots... not line up military march style 



StickaStick said:


> Katsuyus' "shared vision" renders ambush virtually useless.



Katsuya can be neutralized... the paths Shared vision can't

A couple of chakra rods in her and she is turned into nothing more than a meat shield that can only sit and watch as her summoner gets slaughtered in front of her (assuming Tendo doesn't off her like he did the Gama trio)


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## Joakim3 (Jun 11, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Just because she had support in the form of Jiraiya when she summoned it against Oro, doesn't mean she wouldn't have done so without him. If anything, one could say it was to match summon with summon, and considering Chikushodo loves to summon spam, that means Katsuyu is seeing the battlefield quickly as well.



Sure one could argue that, but then what explains her lack of summoning Katsuya against lets say Madara? or when she fought Tobi? Both of which she also had back up 4 other Kages and where also facing summons/megazords



StickaStick said:


> Katsuyu can be de-summoned and re-summoned worst case scenario if she gets sent flying. Also also take into consideration that there very well may be multiple large sized portions of Katsuyu around the battlefield so even if he sends one flying there will be others around. Furthermore, if you've highlighted the fact that Tendo will have not just Tsunade to take into consideration but multiple Katsuyu's as well, meaning if he's forced to send one of the Katsuyu's flying he's left himself open to a counter-attack during his 5-sec cool-down.



When has a summoner ever de-summoned and re-summoned a summon mid fight? If anything if the summoner de-summons their summons it's either due to injury and the fact they don't want them to die. Not put them in harms way.... _again_. Hell Nagato's summons are dead zombies... and even he doesn't de/re-summon them mid battle.

Tendo can use an omni direction _Shinra Tensei_...... he doesn't need to be selective.

And again Katsuya(s) still have 5 other paths and up to 8 summons surrounding either Tendo or themselves, they don't have the luxury of simply say "Tendo's on cool-down time to send the rain in"

Tsunade and Katsuya have absolutely ZERO breathing room in this fight



StickaStick said:


> Personally I think Tsunade would be fine with the idea of having to deal with lesser number of Paths as once if some of them are camping out in the Chameleon



Why would she be fine.... She'd have the added stress knowing theres an invisible summon lurking around me with several paths inside waiting to ambush at _any_ second, while still having to deal with the ones in front of her



StickaStick said:


> But I don't see the Chameleon staying invisible very often with acid being sprayed all over the battlefield which will inevitably find the Chameleon's mark and expose his position. All-in-all I see many people here severely underestimating the tremendous impact that Katsuyu could and probably _would _have in this fight.



Again the acid is pointless with Gakido on the field, the same paths swollewd up SM Jiraiya's _Senpō: Goemon_ within seconds and that had an AoE of several hundred meters if left unchecked


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2015)

None of the paths have CQC ability better than Tsuandes, lol that's a joke.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 11, 2015)

N120 said:


> If you accept kabuto is able to nullify her attacks and level the playing field in his favour then surely that means he is as skillful as she is. It make little sence to call him inferior then backtrack when you realise she couldn't defeat him, in cqc no less.



Obviously I'm never going to agree with you, because he only matched her by getting lots of advantages over her first. If the match stipulations were equal, and Part I Tsunade had knowledge of his abilities and had time to prepare, just as he did, then she would have trashed him in close combat. Making use of the knowledge you have on your opponent *before* fighting them =\= being as skilled as them in CQC. 

I'll say no more on the matter.



> Him mentioning jiraiya is enough to suggest he had other things on his minds other than fighting tsuande when he made his calculations.



What relevance does this have? Jiraiya's inclusion still had nothing to do with why Kabuto changed battlefields.



> Oro didn't help him vs tsuande. He mentioned her punches can kill during the fight and he accepted that advice when he saw the impact her punches made.



I find it unlikely that Orochimaru didn't brief his disciple on Tsunade's abilities. Kabuto was the one that was going to be fighting her, after all. Even if that isn't true, Kabuto had, one way or another, a lot of knowledge on Tsunade before he fought her, while she had very little on him. In a match where knowledge was equal, things would have played out differently.




> She didn't run into his attack.



She threw herself into his Chakra Scalpels.



> Which is the point I made. More stamina =/=skill. She can fight longer not better.



But I don't think you're considering why being able to fight longer is actually important. The more tired she gets, the worse her reaction speed becomes, the more slouched her movements are..in other words, _her close quarters ability gets worse_. Her skill level stays the same, but if she runs out of gas, she can't utilise it effectively. 

This is why Orochimaru and Kabuto exhaust her before engaging her in taijutsu, because she's better at it than them.. unless she's exhausted and they're on steroids.



> Based on what? You keep making an argument over one thing then jumping to conclusions over something else. It's a red herring.



First, can we please address that you're doubting the canon fact that Byakugou Tsunade's chakra levels are infinitely higher than Part I Kabuto's? Can we please highlight how stupid that is? Thanks.

And Tsunade would hit Kabuto more easily with more stamina because she can attack relentlessly without her performance ever suffering. Every one of her attacks can be as destructive as _these_ _attacks_, rather than gradually deteriorate into _weaker ones_, and her speed won't suffer either. Its common sense.



> He evaded most of her attacks without the soldier pills.



He had a head-start on her, she was trying to catch up with him while simultaneously throwing attacks. The minute he had to fight her up close, the minute he didn't have the option of running away, he popped a pill in fear of being overwhelmed by superior taijutsu.



> why are you getting upset? Your whole argument is that kabuto wouldn't win if tsuande had the advantage, but that would be okay because it's tsuande? Kabuto stopped her fighting to her strengths and made it an even playing field, it's part of his skill. gathering Intel is his thing, hes a trained spy. You want him to drop an ability?



I'm not upset, I'm exhausted of explaining the same things to you over and over, for you to then recycle arguments that have already been refuted. My argument is that if battle stipulations were equal, he would lose easily. Your original argument was that his taijutsu skill is comparable to hers, I have already shown you that this is false because he needs advantages and steroids to hang with her in a taijutsu match. While he had the means to hang with her in CQC (with knowledge, exhausting her and consuming a soldier pill), it does not make him as naturally as talented in taijutsu as her. He has a 2.5/5 in the DB while she has a 5/5. 



> Failed to do what?



Failed to match her close combat strength. He ultimately gets Rashinshou'd and resorts to immobilising her with blood so that he can land hits.



> so you're insinuating kabuto isn't skilled to pull off what he did. But again, I keep asking this with little feedback, based on what? Kabuto didn't become more skilled in cqc or evasion tactics with Intel or soldier pills, it was pure skill. He landed those hits based on pure battle ability. What makes you think he can't pull it off again?



He took a soldier pill, which boosts chakra levels and speed (we know this because we saw Kiba take one when he fought Naruto). He couldn't tire out, allowing him to continually fight her at his best, and had the speed advantage too. 



> jmans reaction says otherwise. In anycase pain beat them all and their troops. How is that less hype than sanin surviving against Hanzo?   :



Jiraiya didn't know Hanzou's abilities dulled in his old age. He assumed Pein defeated the same Hanzou that fought him during the war. I don't know what your second point even is.



> He could simply walk away and never get close, if she gets up after that plan fails she'd be looking at him red faced. She has little option but to play dead in the centre of a blown up konoha as she has no other means of pulling a surprise attack, or maybe she'll get a rocket/laser beam headed her way to finish the job. So many options are available to him yet he'd fall for the oldest trick in the book, what are the chances of that?



I'd say the chances are pretty likely. Pein went up close to finish his opponents off in every match he was in (against Jiraiya, against Kakashi, against Hinata, against Naruto). Why would Tsunade be any different?



> I've countered them.



No you haven't. 

You ignored them and started talking about the chakra rod's chakra disrupting effects.



> That's assuming it's poison and not a superior chakra force manipulating their opponents. Pain is manipulating his chakra, poison is far more stable an entity and predictable in its activity within the body.



Actually, Sakura was still able to throw a chakra charged punch and attack Juubi Madara after being impaled with a chakra rod. Tsunade is definitely doing the same to the infinitely weaker Pein.



> Deva could be neo and the katsuyu agent smiths sarrounding him, ST still blows them away.



I was hoping you would say that. Pein uses a huge omni-directional S/T to blow away Katsuyu divisions, and he kills his other 5 Paths in the process. Now its Deva vs Tsunade in a 1v1, and his best techniques are restricted. 



> Neither can you





Oh, but I can. 



Brandon Lee said:


> Tsunade can defeat everyone in the BD



Damn straight.​​


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## StickaStick (Jun 11, 2015)

@Joakim3, I had a reply typed out to about the first page of your reply and decided it wasn't worth it, especially if it's going to lead to multiple multi-page responses. So in that sense I concede defeat 

However, suffice to say I don't see her getting stomped with these restrictions. The fact that is would require Pain to spam summons, attempt to circumvent her regen, and hope that she not once can get around Tendo's cool-down I think it a testament to the idea that she doesn't get stomped, more like mid difficultly ranging to high depending on how Nagato plays his cards with his limited knowledge on Tsunade's considerable strength and durability.


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