# Ichigo vs Meliodas



## SilverMizuji (Aug 18, 2015)

both bloodlusted
no knowledge 
distance:100m
location:soul society
both are current
Round1:Base Meliodas
Round2emon Meliodas


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## MAPSK (Aug 18, 2015)

I wanna say Meliodas bitchslaps this chump, but... I can't


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## Tom Servo (Aug 18, 2015)

stats for meliodas


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## Iwandesu (Aug 18, 2015)

which meliodas ?
base is like small city level+ (from a casual arm wrestle) and mhs (3 digit) from cutting gilthunder thunder at point in blank
demon empowered is small island+


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## SilverMizuji (Aug 18, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> which meliodas ?
> base is like small city level+ (from a casual arm wrestle) and mhs (3 digit) from cutting gilthunder thunder at point in blank
> demon empowered is small island+



Made rounds for both


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## Dr. White (Aug 18, 2015)

Mel actually has a chance if OBD wiki is updated. Ichigo has only City level firepower which is gettinc countered all day by Mel and or his clones together. Mel is easily dishing out more firepower now. He smashed Galan with pure physical moves alone with no demon power and Galan is small island level. The same dude who reflected a shot from Gideon while stationary with enough force to knockout Diane. With quad Digit mach speed to boot, Mel is sitting pretty comfy.

If Ichigo has island + Durability Mel is gonna need to go all out with his demon powers, and maybe even counter back Ichigo's own moves, but he can certainly contend with new feats.

The better question is can Ichigo beat Hawk?


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## AgentAAA (Aug 18, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Mel actually has a chance if OBD wiki is updated. Ichigo has only City level firepower which is gettinc countered all day by Mel and or his clones together. Mel is easily dishing out more firepower now. He smashed Galan with pure physical moves alone with no demon power and Galan is small island level. The same dude who reflected a shot from Gideon while stationary with enough force to knockout Diane. With quad Digit mach speed to boot, Mel is sitting pretty comfy.


Ichigo should comfortably get Kenpachi scaling, so we get gigatons for him.
Still should have a heavy speed advantage if not being outright blitzed.


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## Imagine (Aug 18, 2015)

Yeah Ichigo actually stomps pretty badly


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## Dr. White (Aug 18, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Ichigo should comfortably get Kenpachi scaling, so we get gigatons for him.
> Still should have a heavy speed advantage if not being outright blitzed.



 ?
Bleach is like what? slower than OP right? He isn't blitzing Mel lmao....

Galan is MHS+ and he got his shit wrecked by Mel lmao.

but yeah if Ichigo has Gigatons from Kenny then GG.


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## Dr. White (Aug 18, 2015)

So still a bit slower than OP.

In all the threads I have been in the general consensus is always that low quad mach dudes can't blitz triple digit mach bro's. 

Also Galan escaped teleportation with a range of hundreds of miles in a very small time frame. Easily MHS+, and Mel just made a fool out of him.


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## Imagine (Aug 18, 2015)

I know.

But either way NnT characters are mach 277 until otherwise


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Imagine said:


> I know.
> 
> But either way NnT characters are mach 277 until otherwise





:ignoramus


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

Did anyone here actually approve of that?


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## Tom Servo (Aug 19, 2015)

1 second timeframe? that's being....very very....very generous ck


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> 1 second timeframe? that's being....very very....very generous ck



ck

Seriously though tbh, it was at most a couple of seconds. 1 to 2 is a bit generous, but not really because Meliodas falling to the ground happens after Galan dips out.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> So still a bit slower than OP.
> 
> In all the threads I have been in the general consensus is always that low quad mach dudes can't blitz triple digit mach bro's.
> 
> Also Galan escaped teleportation with a range of hundreds of miles in a very small time frame. Easily MHS+, and Mel just made a fool out of him.



was referring to mel vs. Ichigo, though if he's only triple digits(since frankly if you want to do an argument that "it was only a second or two" I ain't buying, if only because of the lengths people had to go to before the low end bleach speed was accepted.) then they seem about even speedwise


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

i guess the obd profile for ichigo is not updated? since its nothing like island level or quad digit mach like mentioned here. same happened actually with meliodas. no one cares for his profile 

if ichigo can spam island level attacks in the high triple gigaton range i dont think meliodas could full counter them endlessly and ichigo would have the edge then. if not, then yes, his clones could be a game changer. especially now that he got his powers back.

speedwise i see no one having really an advantage here

durability wise i give it to mel since his ability is practically "if you got your ass kicked enough, send it all back with more potency to your foe" via revenge counter.

what about fighting skills? meliodas is an expert with thousand years experience - whos having the advantage in close combat?

h2h meliodas casual punches send people flying over several miles

im in for bringin and comparing some feats, though i actually just want to get some intel on ichigo anyway

edit: if you dont buy the 1 second timeframe make it 3 or 4 or 5 even. its still a very high triple digit number for galan and mel is absolute >>>>> galan in speed (blitzed and striked him 12 times while galan thought he did not even finished to draw his sword)


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## ho11ow (Aug 19, 2015)

I don't see Ichigo have Gigaton Brute strength like Kenny. Most of his best feat is base on getsuga tensho while Meliodas has full counter to easily avoid it. Plus Ichigo never showing that he can spamming consecutive Getsuga that made Meliodas can counter it


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## AgentAAA (Aug 19, 2015)

ho11ow said:


> I don't see Ichigo have Gigaton Brute strength like Kenny. Most of his best feat is base on getsuga tensho while Meliodas has full counter to easily avoid it. Plus Ichigo never showing that he can spamming consecutive Getsuga that made Meliodas can counter it



Kenpachi did it casually and Ichigo's showings are at or better than his.
We have no reason not to scale Ichigo to Kenpachi when it's clear they're at least on the same tier.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Kenpachi did it casually and Ichigo's showings are at or better than his.
> We have no reason not to scale Ichigo to Kenpachi when it's clear they're at least on the same tier.



how much gt was this attack calced?


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## AgentAAA (Aug 19, 2015)

he matched gremmy's meteors KE.

here you go lazy.
116.82 GT's for anyone on Shikai Kenpachi or Gremmy's tier.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

thanks darling. 

about 116 gt so in the regular island level ballpark. meliodas would be able to full counter it. can he spam these?


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## AgentAAA (Aug 19, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> thanks darling.
> 
> about 116 gt so in the regular island level ballpark. meliodas would be able to full counter it. can he spam these?



Ichigo > Shikai Kenpachi
Shikai Kenpachi Did this casually.
So about as spammable as humanly possible.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

does his durability lifes up to this? when he gets his own attacks reflected back at him i mean


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## AgentAAA (Aug 19, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> does his durability lifes up to this? when he gets his own attacks reflected back at him i mean



it's based on physical strength.
so apply newton's law and enjoy.


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## Dellinger (Aug 19, 2015)

Man this NNT wankery is out of hand.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Man this NNT wankery is out of hand.



i remember you stating akainu "low-diffs" current meliodas after power up.

lost all credibility there brah


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> it's based on physical strength.
> so apply newton's law and enjoy.



a simply yes, he can tank 116gt++ blows would have been enough


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## Dellinger (Aug 19, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> i remember you stating akainu "low-diffs" current meliodas after power up.
> 
> lost all credibility there brah



He wrecks his shit.He won't do what he did to WB,he will take the whole head of Meliodas.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 19, 2015)

watching people discuss calcs has become very cancerous

or maybe it always was and I've just grown


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> watching people discuss calcs has become very cancerous
> 
> or maybe it always was and I've just grown



discussing calcs is better than discussing nothing than just assumptions i guess. dont you think?


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> thanks darling.
> 
> about 116 gt so in the regular island level ballpark. meliodas would be able to full counter it. can he spam these?



No he cannot. Meliodas can only full counter whatever the strongest attack in his verse is at the time.

Which is Monpiets 1 GT attack.

You're going into NLF territory with this.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

Imagine said:


> No he cannot. Meliodas can only full counter whatever the strongest attack in his verse is at the time.
> 
> Which is Monpiets 1 GT attack.
> 
> You're going into NLF territory with this.



albions blast were supposed to destroy the city of camelot - making it city level

meliodas with 1/4 of his strenght full countered it.

beforehand he got beaten up badly from city level hendrickson. 

this is by no means a nlf.


*Spoiler*: __ 













meliodas pl. 3k wanted to full counter small island level without probs

current meliodas = >26k


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

It doesn't work like that. First off the images don't work, second off you need to prove Camelot is as large as you're average city. 

We don't use powerlevels in this series to determine where they are feats wise. There is no NnT character that can dish out 100+ GT in the first place.

By your logic Meliodas can full counter any attack


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## MAPSK (Aug 19, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> albions blast were supposed to destroy the city of camelot - making it city level
> 
> meliodas with 1/4 of his strenght full countered it.
> 
> ...



Sterling logic, darling. Adorable, really


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

It's Red Hero all over again


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

i already acknowledged you 2 guys like to downplay nnt without backing up your claims


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

''I don't like that I can't claim ludicrous shit and  get away with it so I'm going to say downplay''


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

Imagine said:


> ''I don't like that I can't claim ludicrous shit and not get away with it so I'm going to say downplay''



well. you stated mach 277. people showed you a calc - you did not accepted it.

there is a calc about 14.7 gt about meliodas - you state best is 1gt nnt

feats. scans. inverse statements. calcs

"ludicrous shit" 

edit: most fun part

i never claimed meliodas wins - yet people go mad


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

Your calcs aren't accepted. Not by me but by nearly everyone that has seen them here. And even if your 14 GT calc was accepted how in the holy hell does that give Meliodas the power to full counter 100+ GT? 

Your wankery is simply off the charts


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

actually my calcs have never been watched. there are like 2 people asking for a scan which i have to re-implement. (one of them being you 

no idea how you come of the idea "nearly everyone" disproved them?

wait a minute i just re-looked the other thread we argued -

you stated you did not even follow nnt and concluded galan trashed meliodas after i showed you the scan where he blitzed him 



its fine if you dont have knowledge on nnt but please refrain from calling me a wanker when all i do is asking for intel on ichigo and stating he could full counter a 100gt attack which i back up with not-to-hard-to-follow logic and reason (despite it dont even coming from ichigo in the first place)

and im sure you do not acceppt the speed calc as well - so far its just : whatever raven states - im against it because i want to be


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

Your speed calc has been question by users on this site.

As has your DC calc. Check the comments. 

I for one approve of quad digit/doubt GT NnT. But if the calc is faulty then it's faulty. 

You're using blitz tropes to justify speed. We don't do that here.


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## Regicide (Aug 19, 2015)

Raven Hero?


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

Raven Hero.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Your speed calc has been question by users on this site.
> 
> As has your DC calc. Check the comments.
> 
> ...



my speed qualc i havent published on this site - and as i saw some people linked to it from another board i was okay with using a bigger timeframe. do the math yourself - double the timeframe, maybe even need 4 seconds more. its still a high triple digit (though no longer quad) digit number. 

and that was for galan. 

"blitz trope"

have you re-watched the fight on nnt? its one-big-speed/blitzfest. not just this one particular scan.

if this does not put meliodas combat speed in comfortably quad digit mach then nothing does 

to show what i mean: here is the fight


*Spoiler*: __ 






















edit: trying to prove my point  - raven hero


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

Another board is not us. Animevice and whoever else can use whatever they want. Doesn't matter to us.

And yes it is what it is. Simply a blitz trope. Which is why these things are hardly ever brought because it's a trope. Nakaba uses them all the time and so do thousands of other mangaka.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

quick-witted counter argument


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Kenpachi did it casually and Ichigo's showings are at or better than his.
> We have no reason not to scale Ichigo to Kenpachi when it's clear they're at least on the same tier.


Kenpachi did not do that shit casually. Ken literally just got a massive powerup, and finally learned how to use his shikai, in a fight which almost cost him his life. Kenny is always acting casual lmao, doesn't mean all of his feats are casual.



White Hawk said:


> He wrecks his shit.He won't do what he did to WB,he will take the whole head of Meliodas.


Shut up Whitehawk. 



Imagine said:


> Another board is not us. Animevice and whoever else can use whatever they want. Doesn't matter to us.
> 
> And yes it is what it is. Simply a blitz trope. Which is why these things are hardly ever brought because it's a trope. Nakaba uses them all the time and so do thousands of other mangaka.


It really wasn't though. It was clearly a scene showing us the physical stat difference between the sins and the commandments. We have specific values for merlin's range, and the feat of him dodging piggybacked on his ability to jump countries.

There is no reason the feat should be taken as an lol trope. Like I said you even have Mel falling through the air as a reference point for Galan's escape.

I'm all about getting calcs right, but c'mon.


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## Sablés (Aug 19, 2015)

>No Kendo
>Eyepatch

Ichigo also got a massive boost and has always had way more potential than Kenny. Latter of which was already on a lower-tier than Ichigo before any of the training.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Kenpachi did not do that shit casually. Ken literally just got a massive powerup, and finally learned how to use his shikai, in a fight which almost cost him his life. Kenny is always acting casual lmao, doesn't mean all of his feats are casual.



Are we discussing the meteor feat Kenpachi?

Because the meteor feat Kenpachi is casual as fuck.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

I consider something like Mel and Ban arm wrestling feat as casual. It was an after effect of their match, not a direct AOE attack. Kenpachi megazroging his sword, and cutting that meteor was not casual IMO. IMO that's like saying Law cutting Fuji's meteor was casual for him, the only difference being their personalities and subsequent reactions to the meteors.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I consider something like Mel and Ban arm wrestling feat as casual. It was an after effect of their match, not a direct AOE attack. Kenpachi megazroging his sword, and cutting that meteor was not casual IMO. IMO that's like saying Law cutting Fuji's meteor was casual for him, the only difference being their personalities and subsequent reactions to the meteors.



The determining factor of whether something is casual or not is the amount of effort involved.

Whether that effort is applied directly or indirectly is pretty much irrelevant.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> The determining factor of whether something is casual or not is the amount of effort involved.
> 
> Whether that effort is applied directly or indirectly is pretty much irrelevant.



Okay and Kenny put effort into it hence him going shikai.

I still obviously believe Ichigo gets the scaling for his energy attacks, just saying it wasn't casual IMO.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Okay and Kenny put effort into it hence him going shikai.



True.

Now, when has shikai taken more than a casual effort to produce and use lately?



Dr. White said:


> I still obviously believe Ichigo gets the scaling for his energy attacks, just saying it wasn't casual IMO.



Don't talk to me. I'm just here to lawyer up on Zaraki's behalf.

All I have to say about that is that it wouldn't be surprising if Ichigo gets the scaling for his physical attacks.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> True.
> 
> Now, when has shikai taken more than a casual effort to produce and use lately?


It doesn't matter how easy it is to get into lmao. The fact that you're entering a powered up form indicates that you're are stepping up the effort put forth for said feat. I mean you can get technical and say it was casual for his Shiki mode, but then we're just delving into a semantics battle.


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## LazyWaka (Aug 19, 2015)

I don't think we can scale it to Ichigo's striking force yet. Overwhelming Physical Power was always Kenpachi's forte. No problem with scaling it to his Getsuga's though.


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## Regicide (Aug 19, 2015)

What Kenpachi did was a fucking nondescript basic swing of his Shikai. Wasn't implied that he was particularly exerting himself.

How the hell was the feat not casual?


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Regicide said:


> What Kenpachi did was a fucking nondescript basic swing of his Shikai. Wasn't implied that he was particularly exerting himself.
> 
> How the hell was the feat not casual?



I forgot Kepnachi using Shikai is something that isn't explictly special.

I forgot Kenpachi has so many descript attacks 

Him fucking up those quincy was casual. Not him busting out a new mode to cut a meteor that had multiple people in SS shitting themselves.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

regicide hero?


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## Regicide (Aug 19, 2015)

You heard it here first, folks.

Feats can't be casual if they're done in anything other than base.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> It doesn't matter how easy it is to get into lmao. The fact that you're entering a powered up form indicates that you're are stepping up the effort put forth for said feat. I mean you can get technical and say it was casual for his Shiki mode, but then we're just delving into a semantics battle.



We've already established that shikai is an effort.

Show that it's *more than a casual effort*.


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## Regicide (Aug 19, 2015)

Like, seriously.

Boosts from powerups have nothing to do with how much effort a character has to put into a given attack in said powerup.

Nothing really points to what Kenny did to the meteor with his shikai as being especially strenuous for him in that state. So.. why believe it was?


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

more interestingly: why does it matter

he is not in this fight


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> We've already established that shikai is an effort.
> 
> Show that it's *more than a casual effort*.



I don't have to prove that because as I said the fact he had to enter a new form to accomplish the massive feat obviously bars it from being casual. 






Fighting someone on your level, and being forced to up the magnitude of your power is not casual. It ceases to be casual when you are forced to up the ante, past the level of combat you *casually possess.* Kenpachi does not casually chill in Shikai form. It's used for situations in which he needs more power.

Like I said you can argue it was casual for Shiki empowered Kenpachi, but there is a lack of a feats pool, and like i said then we are arguing semantics.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I don't have to prove that because as I said the fact he had to enter a new form to accomplish the massive feat obviously bars it from being casual.



Which would be correct, were shikai a "new form" that places any consequential demand on the user.

Again, casualness depends on effort expended. It takes virtually no effort to use shikai.



Dr. White said:


> Fighting someone on your level, and being forced to up the magnitude of your power is not casual. It ceases to be casual when you are forced to up the ante, past the level of combat you *casually possess.* Kenpachi does not casually chill in Shikai form. It's used for situations in which he needs more power.



Base =/= casual.

Otherwise, SS Ichigo with his always-on shikai has "casually" fought and/or defeated everybody he faced before Byakuya. Do you want me to fetch you panels of him "casually" bleeding, struggling and nearly dying?


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

wait shikai is an "upgrade" form?

thats like saying goku can casually perform feat X or defeat enemy A after having to go ssj 1.

arent "casual" feats only "casual" when they are in base?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 19, 2015)

casual feats are casual when they're casual


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## xenos5 (Aug 19, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> casual feats are casual when they're casual



Pretty much this.

Though i'd say when you get into the speculative territory of how casual something was/how much someone was holding back things get a bit wonky.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 19, 2015)

Casual is when someone does not has to rely on any method of powering himself up. Neither by changin forms or channeling energy


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## Imagine (Aug 19, 2015)

What the fuck is wrong with you people


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 19, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> Casual is when someone does not has to rely on any method of powering himself up. Neither by changin forms or channeling energy



no its when something is casual 

what form they're in isn't relevant


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## AgentAAA (Aug 19, 2015)

casual is when it doesn't require any special effort.
This is like saying a random attack from Ikkaku with Hozukimaru wouldn't be casual.
For Shikai kenpachi, those slashes are casual, in that they don't strain him and he has no limit to how many he can do in a row.
Ichigo should be no different.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> no its when something is casual
> 
> what form they're in isn't relevant



Definitions of Casual

2. without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing:
3. seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening; apathetic; unconcerned:

Explicitly entering a form that gives you higher power (because your base form was not enough) and focusing all of your strength into an attack, the strongest of which he has shown to date (or anyone in the series for that matter), is not casual.

Do you have intentions of fighting seriously if your entering your new form you just learned for more power? Yes. Is that casual? No.

Does powering up to shikai mode make Kenpachi seem indifferent or unconcerned? No......

The scans I posted as incidents of a character being casual fit both of those definitions.


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## Tapion (Aug 19, 2015)

"focusing all of your strenght"

Still hasn't taken off the eyepatch, shows no sign of wear and tear after destroying the meteor. Continues to fight gremmy who throws out even stronger concentrated attacks.

It's casual as in it took little effort with his Shikai to accomplish.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

So would you say Luffy can casually whoop Doflamingo's ass? (post gamma knife) Despite only being able to "casually" do so when in G4?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> So would you say Luffy can casually whoop Doflamingo's ass? (post gamma knife) Despite only being able to "casually" do so when in G4?



Luffy had to pull out his ultimate G4 tech, the form has a highly limited time limit with a massive recharge AND uses up all his Haki.

meanwhile

Kenpachi says his Shikai name and then can stay in it for roughly as long as he fucking wants, didn't name his attack and didn't take his eyepatch off.

stop being a dumbass pls


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## Iwandesu (Aug 19, 2015)

G4 luffy ?
of course
albeit the sheer level of casuality is very different
just like how is shikai kenny the one who can casually blow up the meteor 
not base


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## Reyes (Aug 19, 2015)

Imagine said:


> What the fuck is wrong with you people



Autism is my guess.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> Luffy had to pull out his ultimate G4 tech, the form has a highly limited time limit with a massive recharge AND uses up all his Haki.
> 
> meanwhile
> 
> ...



So your special pleading now? G4 is a mode not a technique. Kenny literally just gained that form through training with a top tier....Your argument was that form was completely irrelevant, and you agreed with the one defining feature being effort put in....

so miss me with them personal attacks, and discuss things like the capable human you are.


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## Tapion (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> So would you say Luffy can casually whoop Doflamingo's ass? (post gamma knife) Despite only being able to "casually" do so when in G4?



Wouldn't Luffy busting Noah be a better question tho?  Or law slicing Fujitora's meteor? The way casual is being used in the thread was "with minimal effort", I shouldn't have to point out how taxing Gear fourth is in comparison to a Shikai of all things.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Tapion said:


> Wouldn't Luffy busting Noah be a better question tho?  Or law slicing Fujitora's meteor?


Luffy didn't casually bust Noah so there's no pint in bringing that up, and neither did Law. I mean you can argue that in practice it was casual for Law seeing as his powers make most crazy shit seem casual, but he was clearly taken a back by the metoer, and the speed feat is still OP's best. So no I wouldn't say Law' casually cut it.




> The way casual is being used in the thread was "with minimal effort", I shouldn't have to point out how taxing Gear fourth is in comparison to a Shikai of all things.


So? The effects G4 have on luffy come after his performance with the mode. Luffy wasn't having any problems with Dofla's attacks of defense.My question was can Luffy casually beat Dofla based on the argument that one's form is feats being casual or not, so it is perfectly possible for Luffy to casually wipe the floor with dofla, and then be pooped out for 10 minutes. It has no bearing on how he performed while under the mode. In the context of this argument that's a non sequitur. Just say for all intensive purposes G4 didn't harm him, would you still generally say Luffy can beat Dofla casually? Cause that's ridiculous seeing as he has his basemode, G2, and G3 that don't allow him to compare. His "casual" G4 feats of more note don't ovverride everything else.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Explicitly entering a form that gives you higher power (because your base form was not enough) and focusing all of your strength into an attack, the strongest of which he has shown to date (or anyone in the series for that matter), is not casual..



So by this logic nothing SSJG Goku does is casual.
Shikai's not some uber-taxing G4 boost.
And Kenpachi wasn't focusing all of his strength into an attack like some getsuga bullshit.
He just cut with his sword.
Transformations have no bearing on how casually you do things within the transformation.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Transformations have no bearing on how casually you do things within the transformation.



And my point is that once you feel the need to transform to another plateua of power, whoever you are fighting as ceased to be a casual foe. Like Galan whiping out 3 sins with minimal effort and physical strength only. He never had to increase his performance. He was casually just fucking them up. Kenny had to actively reach a new level of power in that fight, done via going shikai, which automatically made the feat not casual for Kenny overall. If he could do the shit casually he wouldn't need to amplify his power.

I already conceded if you're looking at the form itself (and not the character overall) then yeah it could be said that it was casually done (despite very few feats for Shikai ken) but to say Kenpachi casually an island buster?  Nah brah.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> And my point is that once you feel the need to transform to another plateua of power, whoever you are fighting as ceased to be a casual foe.


I mean yes.
Not really a poitn here.



> Like Galan whiping out 3 sins with minimal effort and physical strength only. He never had to increase his performance. He was casually just fucking them up.


Accurate.


> Kenny had to actively reach a new level of power in that fight, done via going shikai, which automatically made the feat not casual for Kenny overall. If he could do the shit casually he wouldn't need to amplify his power.


See that's the poitn where we get dumb here.
This is like claiming someone Goku transforms to SSJ1 for is not a casual foe.
For goku it's a casual transformation and if he manhandles the guy immediately after I'm going to call it casual.
Using your abilities doesn't make it not casual. Or effortless.



> I already conceded if you're looking at the form itself (and not the character overall) then yeah it could be said that it was casually done (despite very few feats for Shikai ken) but to say Kenpachi casually an island buster?  Nah brah.


Shikai ken has next to no feats because his shikai's never been put against anything to push it.
Or it could be just that it has no special techniques like Ikkaku's shikai.
I guess it depends on how you look at 'casual" but I don't see forms that take nothing out of you and are activated at the flick of a switch to be less than casual.
If anything, I'd look at "base" as "holding back" at that point, the same as actively pulling punches.


albeit, at this point the discussion doesn't really matter.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Ok I can see the point now. I guess I thought since him going Shikai was reactionary (instead of Zaraki being in shikai first then the meteor being summoned) instead A Priori to the meteor that it indicated non casualness. I think it does indicate his mindset towards the opponent was not casual, but the feat itself for that level of power, seemed casual.


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## Alita (Aug 19, 2015)

Depends on what version of ichigo mel is fighting. From what I've heard of him he should only lose to dangai.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> So your special pleading now? G4 is a mode not a technique. Kenny literally just gained that form through training with a top tier....Your argument was that form was completely irrelevant, and you agreed with the one defining feature being effort put in....
> 
> so miss me with them personal attacks, and discuss things like the capable human you are.





r u aware that falsely accusing ppl of fallacies is in and of itself a fallacy?

special pleading is where I plead specially for similar matters, your inability to comprehend basic evidence does not prove that two dissimilar situations are the same.

1. Gear Four is clearly not the same as a Shikai -> Indisputable fact
2. Luffy has to use his ultimate technique, while Kenny didnt use a named one -> Indisputable fact
3. Luffy was tired out by this feat, Kenny was not -> Indisputable fact
4. Gear Four is Luffy's ultimate form, Kenny may or may not have a Bankai and also had his eyepatch on -> Indisputable fact

so get the fuck out of this thread because you pull this dumbass shit everytime and get BTFO everytime

man I gotta stop reading dumb ass threads like this.


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## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> > special pleading is where I plead specially for similar matters, your inability to comprehend basic evidence does not prove that two dissimilar situations are the same.
> 
> 
> Fuckhead, if you claim that form is irrelvant in a measure of a character being casual, and then pick some irrelevant factors of another form, I'm using for direct comparison, that is special pleading. As long as Luffy can casually fuck Doflamingo up in a form more pwoerful than is other one's, then it's a valid example for me to use....
> ...


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 19, 2015)

form is irrelevant you mong 

LUFFY GOT REKT

KENNY DIDN'T

C A S U L
A
S
U
L


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## Blαck (Aug 19, 2015)

Wait what's the argument here?


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## Hamaru (Aug 19, 2015)

This debate really isn't needed. If the meaning of casual is so hard for people to understand, then sure, break it into forms. Shikai Kenpachi can casually swing his sword to replicate his feat over and over again. As far as we know, Ichigo is still perma-shikai. So the question is, can Ichigo physically replicate a casual shikai Kenpachi swing. The answer should be an obvious YES. 

During the first invasion, it was clear that Ichigo was already leagues above every Gotei 13 member. Kenpachi was badly beaten by a bare handed Royd/Lloyd....BARE HANDED! Ichigo, in the same invasion skipped all of the SR and went heads up against Bach, the same Bach who just absorbed the power of the SR that beat Kenpachi with his bare hands. In addition to that, Bach also gained Yama-jii's power as well. Ichigo was basically going up against someone that was many, many leagues above anything Kenpachi has ever fought. While he did not win the fight, he was able to take some solid hits and his blute stopped Bach's stab to the neck. 

The gap between Ichigo and Kenpachi was massive. Kenpachi's training wouldn't cover the gap because Ichigo also went through training, and one that would have made the gap even bigger. Think about what the Royal Guard training did for people like Renji & Rukia....now then, tell me if you honestly think that the same type of training wouldn't have kept the gap difference between Ichigo and Kepachi.


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## Sablés (Aug 19, 2015)

BlackniteSwartz said:


> Wait what's the argument here?



Autism Central


It kinda pissed me off reading it


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## Flagrance (Aug 20, 2015)

So Ichigo takes this _casually _


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

Wow. 

People don't agree with your opinion and you rely on calling them names and insult. 

Way to go - certain users here. No wonder you have to rely on negging people if there is no other way to get your emotions under control. It's a nice valve. 

As for the argument - 

No - having to transform to a new level of power does not makes the fight casual. Regardless of how spammy spammy you may be able to dish out amazing dc afterwards

Goku couldn't defeat frieza in his regular form. 
He had to go ssj to defeat him - and while in this form he clearly was superior no one can claim namek saga goku casually is above frieza - since it would ignore the entire fight and just focus on the last couple of minutes


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## Flagrance (Aug 20, 2015)

So if Meliodas starts effortlessly handling ten commandments in his Demon form, that's not casual either? 


Nice.


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## Hamaru (Aug 20, 2015)

It doesn't matter what form Kenpachi was in because we are talking about Ichigo, and Ichigo can casually do whatever shikai Kenpachi has to offer.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

Exactly. Why would anyone call it an effortless victory if meliodas had to rely on his demon form. 

I get the impression you think we are trying to downplay kenpachi to make meliodas look good in this fight. Though a) kenpachi isn't even a contestant here and b) it's a general argument regardless the character


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## OneSimpleAnime (Aug 20, 2015)

the meteor feat was casual and thats the end of this shit. seriously he casually jumped, used shikai, smashed the meteor and sat back like it wasnt shit. Goku going SS1 and stomping someone in 2 seconds is casual even if it isnt in base because its casual for a form that has no huge side effects. Now if Goku used SS3, a form that drains energy quickly and is hugely taxing, then its not casual because it strains him.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

Could kenpachi have done it the same way in base at that time? No. So it was casual in this form but it was not casual as kenpachi per se 

Goku turning ssj1 is the same thing at frieza fight


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## OneSimpleAnime (Aug 20, 2015)

SSJ1 Goku wasnt casual vs Frieza so I dont get the analogy. Shikai is casual for him and it was a casual swing. Its still casual dude


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

Why didn't he performed the same feat without shikai? Because he could not - because only with this transformation it was easily done 

Everything which forces you to transform in your stronger self which you then put down without problems can not be seen as casual...

It's not like Kenny is running around in base being able to do it all day like he is in shikai


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## FrozenFeathers (Aug 20, 2015)

Ichigo wins casually.
Full Counter or whatever will not because it is pure NLF.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

FrozenFeathers said:


> Ichigo wins casually.
> Full Counter or whatever will not because it is pure NLF.



the ability itself is a walking nlf. yes. absolutely.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 20, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> Why didn't he performed the same feat without shikai? Because he could not - because only with this transformation it was easily done
> 
> Everything which forces you to transform in your stronger self which you then put down without problems can not be seen as casual...
> 
> It's not like Kenny is running around in base being able to do it all day like he is in shikai



You can do casual feats in base
You can do casual feats in Shikai
You can do casual feats in Bankai

Form doesn't matter


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## FrozenFeathers (Aug 20, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> the ability itself is a walking nlf. yes. absolutely.



Okay then.
Melio gets reiatsu crushed due to not having any.
And Melio cannot see Ichigo because he is invisible.

Ichigo has bigger NLFs.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 20, 2015)

... This thread clearly isn't going anywhere.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

Not really


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## Tapion (Aug 20, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> Why didn't he performed the same feat without shikai? Because he could not - because only with this transformation it was easily done
> 
> Everything which forces you to transform in your stronger self which you then put down without problems can not be seen as casual...
> 
> It's not like Kenny is running around in base being able to do it all day like he is in shikai




At the moment Kenpachi went Shikai, did He exert a lot of effort to destroy the Meteor? Yes or No?


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

Tapion said:


> At the moment Kenpachi went Shikai, did He exert a lot of effort to destroy the Meteor? Yes or No?



could have kenny done it without going shikai?


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## Tapion (Aug 20, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> could have kenny done it without going shikai?



Again, do you agree Kenpachi using his Shikai can destroy a meteor without much effort? Yes or No? I know your question to my question implies a 'yes', but I want you to answer. 

Would you say Frieza in fourth form has no casual feats?


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## Regicide (Aug 20, 2015)

FrozenFeathers said:


> Okay then.
> Melio gets reiatsu crushed due to not having any.
> And Melio cannot see Ichigo because he is invisible.
> 
> Ichigo has bigger NLFs.


What does any of that have to do with anything


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## Yak (Aug 20, 2015)

I've been following this thread for a while. It gives me a headache. 

I don't know why Kenpachi is being discusses here so much unless he is a vital point of reference which I don't really see the relevance of, personally. But that aside, here's the thing that's a bit iffy about Kenpachi.

Isn't his Nozarashi's point that it makes cutting all kinds of shit easy? That's the whole ability in a nutshell. It can basically cut everything. Of course everything looks casual when you apply this power to a meteor. That's the whole point. But looking more at the fact that Zaraki who is comfortably mid to high tier captain level without even any form of release had the need to rely on his shikai makes the claim for effortlessness a bit moot. But that is only in my book, I don't care for the Kenpachi perspective in the first place.

I personally don't see why Meliodas wouldn't be able to counter anything Ichigo dishes out, it seems logical because much like Nozarashi, Mel's power is specifically tailored to counter any form of power attack. To reiterate... ANY form of power attack. It doesn't matter if its wind, fire, lighting or some obscure form of soul energy. It has reflected plant powers as much as earth and even decaying death or angry souls from the netherrealm. It doesn't matter. If its based on a power... it even deflected King's Disaster right back on him and that's not even a corporal power, its a status effect manipulator. Doesn't matter, Full Counter repells it as long as it isn't a passive ability like turning yourself invisible.

Now. We do respect the OBD's approach however in that - IN HERE - Full Counter is a no-limits fallacy because by agreed debating terms you only allow it to work on feats that Meliodas has actively shown to deal with, nothing hypothetically above. Otherwise Nozarashi would also be an NFL and could literally cut anything from the fabrics of time and space to the perception of multiversal future reality. Which is obviously bullshit because Kenpachi has never done that.


So. As it stands, Ichigo currently dishes out more power and is somewhat faster but that's only for the time being because whoever is responsible for this abuse of Meliodas threads lately can't hold his fucking horses and wait till the little guy gets some actual calculatable feats that aren't based on tropes or hype. 

That's just my two cents because I found the last four pages horribly annoying. I'm back to repairing the NNT directory. Have fun or go lock this shit or something.


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## Tapion (Aug 20, 2015)

Well he has cut through space when Gremmy sent/trapped him there.


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## Regicide (Aug 20, 2015)

So far we've been given no reason to believe his shikai does anything other than hitting things really hard

It's not been shown to have an explicit ability and considering the current state of Bleach, we'd probably gotten a whole chapter explaining it if it did


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## Yak (Aug 20, 2015)

Regicide said:


> So far we've been given no reason to believe his shikai does anything other than hitting things really hard
> 
> It's not been shown to have an explicit ability and considering the current state of Bleach, we'd probably gotten a whole chapter explaining it if it did



No, its not directly stated. But it could be strongly hinted at, at least. By Zaraki claiming that there is nothing the cannot cut right after he released and destroyed that meteor. And then proceeding to cut Gremmy apart from being put into a void matterless space which was supposed to completely rend him apart.


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## Regicide (Aug 20, 2015)

That's a figure of speech

Kenny always talks big


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## Regicide (Aug 20, 2015)

I mean

Even if his power was literally to cut through things via some hax

The meteor wouldn't have violently shattered in the manner that it did if that was the only thing at work when Kenpachi swung at it


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

Tapion said:


> Again, do you agree Kenpachi using his Shikai can destroy a meteor without much effort? Yes or No? I know your question to my question implies a 'yes', but I want you to answer.
> 
> Would you say Frieza in fourth form has no casual feats?



since you are focused on his shikai form i take it he could not perform the feat in base?

frieza in base form had a casual feat - destroying planet vegeta.
ofc. he can do it with his later forms too without anyone having to debate over.

so kenpachi actually did destroy meteros in base form too? is this what you are trying to incline with this comparison?


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## Yak (Aug 20, 2015)

A casual feat in shikai should by itself not be rated as such. Just because Kubo uses shikai in absolute overabundance and inflationary manner doesn't mean it makes no or only little difference. Even a shikai can be a serious game changer and by itself implies that you are leaving the realm of anything done casual. Example: Hisagi.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2015)

Yak said:


> A casual feat in shikai should by itself not be rated as such. Just because Kubo uses shikai in absolute overabundance and inflationary manner doesn't mean it makes no or only little difference. Even a shikai can be a serious game changer and by itself implies that you are leaving the realm of anything done casual. Example: Hisagi.



Shinji casually cut Base Aizen bro.


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## Yak (Aug 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Shinji casually cut Base Aizen bro.



You know what, I don't even remember which chapter that was.

Lol Bleach


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## Tapion (Aug 20, 2015)

So what would you describe Kenpachi using his bare minimum ability to bust a meteor as? Keep in mind he can flail his sword around all day with that destructive force like a madman.


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## Yak (Aug 20, 2015)

Tapion said:


> So what would you describe Kenpachi using his bare minimum ability to bust a meteor as? Keep in mind he can flail his sword around all day with that destructive force like a madman.



Yeah but that's not his bare minimum ability. From his unique perspective that's his top ability. Shikai is his top (until proven that he also has bankai). His minimum would have been or once was taking the bells off. Then the eyepatch. Which, for a long time, no one was even good enough to remotely challenge. Not to mention that he ever got stronger the closer he came to death and then recovered. That's some sort of innate unique freak genetics or something he has. Top that off with using the actual ability of his sword, yeah, the meteor thing is anything BUT casual.

Few people might remember it but Zangetsu once said that all Kenpachi ever did was working against the power of his shikai, although unbeknownst to him. Which is also why he never heard its voice. I know Kubo has retconned or completely forgotten a lot of the worldbuilding he established early on but construing Kenpachi's shikai feat as something casual is from his entire character perspective just horribly wrong.


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## Tapion (Aug 20, 2015)

I feel like we're at the point where shit will be regurgitated from the last pages. The bottom line is that Kenpachi could replicate the feat as many times as he wants even though he's still limiting himself thanks to his eyepatch, and that's all that matters in regards to Ichigo and his Getsuga spamming.


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## FrozenFeathers (Aug 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Shinji casually cut Base Aizen bro.



Since when were you under that impression?


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## Tapion (Aug 20, 2015)

Where's Wombat?


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2015)

FrozenFeathers said:


> Since when were you under that impression?



I was being sarcastic. If the definition of casual for a feat is purely from an effort standpoint then Shinji casually cut Aizen before he got pwned. Which is why I think it's best to take the context of the feat and the situation.


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## FrozenFeathers (Aug 20, 2015)

He may not even have cut Aizen at all. Due to the effects of Kyoka.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2015)

FrozenFeathers said:


> He may not even cut Aizen at all.



My impression was that he was the first to injure Aizen on panel. Aizen legit complimented him before bragging about how is Shikai was a better illusory one. The build up of Shinji keeping his powers secret from Aizen kinda bolsters this idea.

Didn't Aizen pretty much admit that he just overrode Shinji's illusion? (implying he was legitimately caught, which we saw when he thought he figured it out and tried to block)


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

Tapion said:


> I feel like we're at the point where shit will be regurgitated from the last pages. The bottom line is that Kenpachi could replicate the feat as many times as he wants even though he's still limiting himself thanks to his eyepatch, and that's all that matters in regards to Ichigo and his Getsuga spamming.



more advanced bottomline -

after he had to go into a powered up form to do it


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## Tapion (Aug 20, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> more advanced bottomline -
> 
> after he had to go into a powered up form to do it



This doesn't change anything regarding him being able spam his meteor busting swings really.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

Tapion said:


> This doesn't change anything regarding him being able spam his meteor busting swings really.



since he is not able to "meteor busting swing" around in base form - it does. actually


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## Reyes (Aug 20, 2015)

Night going to have a brain aneurysm from reading all this shit.


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## Tapion (Aug 20, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> since he is not able to "meteor busting swing" around in base form - it does. actually



Nope, Ichigo's Getsugas are being scaled to Ken's meteor busting feat. they're both spammable and Melod can't full counter ether....He dies. 

What's Mel's destructive capacity and is his speed above Ichigo's?


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## xenos5 (Aug 20, 2015)

Tapion said:


> Nope, Ichigo's Getsugas are being scaled to Ken's meteor busting feat. they're both spammable and Melod can't full counter ether....He dies.
> 
> What's Mel's destructive capacity and is his speed above Ichigo's?



Hmmm... I wonder if a multi Getsuga fueled Revenge Counter could do Ichigo in? 

Mel's small island level scaling from Galan. And MHS in speed.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> Hmmm... I wonder if a multi Getsuga fueled Revenge Counter could do Ichigo in?
> 
> Mel's small island level scaling from Galan. And MHS in speed.



galan is mhs+ 

mel >>>>> galan in speed

mel is mhs+


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## Regicide (Aug 20, 2015)

RavenSupreme said:


> since he is not able to "meteor busting swing" around in base form - it does. actually


As I recall, the whole point of Kenny being brought up in the first place was in regards to powerscaling.

Never mind that the time it would take for him to release is basically all of nothing anyways.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2015)

Didn't Candice Catnip survive a Tenshou?


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## Regicide (Aug 20, 2015)

Survive would imply that she was directly hit.

When it's more like she was grazed by the thing and lost an arm for it.


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## xenos5 (Aug 20, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Survive would imply that she was directly hit.
> 
> When it's more like she was grazed by the thing and lost an arm for it.



Hmm...

Well considering Mel's speed he could purposely let himself lose a limb or two to build up enough energy for a powerful  revenge counter.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Survive would imply that she was directly hit.
> 
> When it's more like she was grazed by the thing and lost an arm for it.



Oh okay didn't remember exactly what happened.


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## wowfel (Aug 20, 2015)

This is the dumbest logic in the world ichigo shouldn't be scaled to kenpachi, ichigo strength relies around his speed and spamming getsuga tenshou while Kenpachi is known for his unmatched brute strength so he should only be scaled to certain characters that are not ichigo (currrently).


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## Regicide (Aug 20, 2015)

I hope you realize that argument doesn't actually provide any points towards not scaling Strawberry-kun off of Kenny.

Like, a given character's stats could be relatively skewed towards a particular area like speed, that doesn't exclude the possibility that their overall capabilities aren't comparable or greater to another character.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 20, 2015)

this thread is inflating my ignore list


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## wowfel (Aug 20, 2015)

> I hope you realize that argument doesn't actually provide any points towards not scaling Strawberry-kun off of Kenny.
> 
> Like, a given character's stats could be relatively skewed towards a particular area like speed, that doesn't exclude the possibility that their overall capabilities aren't comparable or greater to another character.


Yeah I heard rukia and renji are also in the gigaton range............... why in blue hell should ichigo be scaled to kenpachi only ones who should be scaled is Aizen, Yammamoto, and Mugetsu Ichigo because they displayed large DC within the context of the manga.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Aug 20, 2015)

This thread is terrible

Also



Nightbringer said:


> watching people discuss calcs has become very cancerous
> 
> or maybe it always was and I've just grown


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