# Presbyterian Church to ordain first gay minister



## Kafuka de Vil (Oct 7, 2011)

> At Covenant Presbyterian Church in Madison, WI, Scott Anderson will make history when he becomes the first openly gay man to be ordained as a minister in the Presbyterian Church.
> 
> "We are all created in God's image, and my ordination really is a symbol of that shift in thinking," Anderson said. "I don't know if it's totally sunk in yet, I'm excited, but I'm also humbled by the moment."
> 
> ...





Yep that's right, _another_ gay thread, but this time with a twist.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

Wasn't this posted before? I thought I remember hearing about this. 



> "A healing moment for me, having stepped away for two decades and now coming back at his point in my life to reclaim my call which is so central to who I am," Anderson said.


Preach it.


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## Kafuka de Vil (Oct 7, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Wasn't this posted before? I thought I remember hearing about this.



Three protestant based churches in the US have previously ordained gay ministers, most likely one of them.


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## River Song (Oct 7, 2011)

Yay America 

Anywhoo on the topic of the poll, There probably is but I aren't terribly bothered currently


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## Toroxus (Oct 7, 2011)

Wow, I'm actually surprised at you, MS_F. 

Poll: There needs to be more gay threads. For the homosexual disease needs to spread to all the cute boys. 

in b4 perseverance


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## Mist Puppet (Oct 7, 2011)

Good for him. Him being gay shouldn't get in his way of wanting to be a minister and being closer to God, since that seems to be his thing.


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## Superstars (Oct 7, 2011)

> Him being gay shouldn't get in his way of wanting to be a minister and being closer to God


Very contradictory.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

What's up with the poll? Where's the "  Perseverance will arrive soon! " option?


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## Mist Puppet (Oct 7, 2011)

Superstars said:


> Very contradictory.



How's it feel to be wrong all the time?


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## Toroxus (Oct 7, 2011)

FUCK. I forgot to say "in b4 superstars"

Anywho:

*Topic Meltdown Imminent*


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## soulnova (Oct 7, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> What's up with the poll? Where's the " Perseverance will arrive soon" option?



I approve this option. It should be mandatory from now on. 

On the other hand



Superstars said:


> Very contradictory.






1mmortal 1tachi, why did you deleted your post?  I was going to make an awesome reference to Castiel in there. Bugger.


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## dr_shadow (Oct 7, 2011)

The Church of Sweden (that 70% of Swedes belong to) already permits women and homosexuals to be priests, so I definitly see this as a step towards modernized Christianity.

How many churches are there in the US anyway??? There seems to be no end to them, althoug I'm starting to learn the names of the biggest ones...


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## Kafuka de Vil (Oct 7, 2011)

Toroxus said:


> Wow, I'm actually surprised at you, MS_F.



I always make good threads and posts, since 2005™.



Terra Branford said:


> What's up with the poll? Where's the "  Perseverance will arrive soon! " option?



Whose  Perseverance?


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## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

soulnova said:


> I approve this option. It should be mandatory from now on.


Definitely mandatory. 

That makes me wonder, was the Cafe Convo thread named after Perseverance...?


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## Superstars (Oct 7, 2011)

Miss Goobette said:


> How's it feel to be wrong all the time?


Like Sodom and Gamorrah?

Not much.


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## River Song (Oct 7, 2011)

Superstars said:


> Like Sodom and Gamorrah?
> 
> Not much.



Soddom and Gamorrah were destroyed for lusting after the angels and attempting to rape them


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## Bishop (Oct 7, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Definitely mandatory.
> 
> That makes me wonder, was the Cafe Convo thread named after Perseverance...?



Yes, I made it, though I didn't think anybody would vote for it.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

Bishop said:


> Yes, I made it, though I didn't think anybody would vote for it.




**


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## Mist Puppet (Oct 7, 2011)

Superstars said:


> Like Sodom and Gamorrah?
> 
> Not much.



Right, figured as much.


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## dr_shadow (Oct 7, 2011)

What rocks about being Protestant, at least in the Lutheran version, is that as long as you believe in Jesus and pray to him for salvation, you can do pretty much whatever you want and still go to Heaven.

Like Paul writes, the rules of the Bible are only to make us aware of our faults. It's not considered realistic that a human can live up to all the guidelines.


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## Superstars (Oct 7, 2011)

mr_shadow said:


> What rocks about being Protestant, at least in the Lutheran version, is that as long as you believe in Jesus and pray to him for salvation, you can do pretty much whatever you want and still go to Heaven.
> 
> Like Paul writes, the rules of the Bible are only to make us aware of our faults. It's not considered realistic that a human can live up to all the guidelines.



Do not be decieved, faith without works is dead. I suggest you read the Book of Romans and Hebrews too. Paul writes grace does not give believers a free pass to sin willfully. For there is no respect of persons with God. We can be sent to Hell for treading on the blood of Christ.



			
				Miss Goobette said:
			
		

> Right, figured as much.


It's the truth.


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## dr_shadow (Oct 7, 2011)

Superstars said:


> Do not be decieved, faith without works is dead. I suggest you read the Book of Romans *and Hebrews too*. Paul writes grace does not give believers a free pass to sin willfully. For there is no respect of persons with God. We can be sent to Hell for treading on the blood of Christ.
> 
> 
> It's the truth.



Paul is most likely not the author of Hebrews. The vocabulary and style, as well as the late date of the letter entering the canon, all point to a different author according to my Bible commentary.

So not a source of Paul's thinking, althoug its inclusion in the Bible does make it Christian thinking in a more general sense.


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## Terra Branford (Oct 7, 2011)

Not only that, but Paul is not going to support your anti-gay mindset (especially if you know the meaning of the original words used).


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## Mael (Oct 7, 2011)

Coteaz, being a Presbo, how do you feel about this move? 

I for one am for it despite not being one.


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## Superstars (Oct 7, 2011)

mr_shadow said:


> Paul is most likely not the author of Hebrews. The vocabulary and style, as well as the late date of the letter entering the canon, all point to a different author according to my Bible commentary.
> 
> So not a source of Paul's thinking, althoug its inclusion in the Bible does make it Christian thinking in a more general sense.


You are right, it is unconfirmed but Paul is generally accepted as the author of Hebrews [But he states so in Romans and throughout the new testament, so it's ok if he is not the author]. But the overall theme in the entirety of the Bible proves the point I was making.



			
				Terra Branford said:
			
		

> Not only that, but Paul is not going to support your anti-gay mindset (especially if you know the meaning of the original words used).


I'm not anti-gay. God does not condone gay. It is made known throughout the entirety of the Bible. For those who have actually read it.


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## Bishop (Oct 7, 2011)

Is has been proven though many ways that Paul was not the author of Hebrews. As a reader and speaker of the Hebrew lanuages it is easy for me and unorthodox jews to see this, however it has taken years for many others to catch up to this. 



As it is stated here, there are about 5 key points that would make it borderline impossible for Paul to write it seeing as many things are different. It has been proven in small circles (Mainly in Israeli and English studies) that this was a sermon by Paul and was copied by Luke.

Also, Paul did not teach to love thy Lord and all will be alright; Paul and Peter (and Jesus and Andrew for that matter) taught that you must follow the laws and though one is not perfect, to work towards that perfection, even rejecting that which is stopping you (take out the eye if it keeps you in sin, etc).

In the original text, Paul speaks as not to publicly condemn others but to accept as long as it does not taint your Holiness. 

This was at the side convo, not the thread topic.


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## Superstars (Oct 7, 2011)

^Ah, Thanks for that *Bishop.*


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## Coteaz (Oct 7, 2011)

Mael said:


> Coteaz, being a Presbo, how do you feel about this move?
> 
> I for one am for it despite not being one.


I'm all for it and see nothing wrong with it. The only ones against this are lackwits who belong in the 12th century. 

My church is one of the more open and accepting Presbyterian congregations anyways, so they've already embraced this. Only a few old farts shake their heads and grumble.


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## thunderbear (Oct 8, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> I'm all for it and see nothing wrong with it. The only ones against this are lackwits who belong in the 12th century.
> 
> My church is one of the more open and accepting Presbyterian congregations anyways, so they've already embraced this. Only a few old farts shake their heads and grumble.



Well, if you're all right believing that God's word changes to fit the culture, then I guess I can't stop you :3


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## Talon. (Oct 8, 2011)

Good for him.


keep on truckin, gay preacher man. keep on truckin.


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## Tiger (Oct 8, 2011)

thunderbear said:


> Well, if you're all right believing that God's word changes to fit the culture, then I guess I can't stop you :3



It happens, whether you're along for the ride or not. There is no opinion on the matter - it's a fact.

Good for the gay guy, and it would be sweet if the Phelps-monster trips on the curb and does a face-plant on TV  They could use a little humility.


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## Mael (Oct 8, 2011)

thunderbear said:


> Well, if you're all right believing that God's word changes to fit the culture, then I guess I can't stop you :3



Where did God say anything about this specific issue being a problem?

Can you show us?


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## Xyloxi (Oct 8, 2011)

thunderbear said:


> Well, if you're all right believing that God's word changes to fit the culture, then I guess I can't stop you :3



Are you seriously trying to say that you're a perfect Christian? I don't see how anybody can follow the Bible's commands entirely without being a vegetable with no desires or emotions.


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## dr_shadow (Oct 8, 2011)

Xyloxi said:


> Are you seriously trying to say that you're a perfect Christian? I don't see how anybody can follow the Bible's commands entirely without being a vegetable with no desires or emotions.



Does the Church of England have homosexual and/or female priests btw?


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## Mael (Oct 8, 2011)

Xyloxi said:


> Are you seriously trying to say that you're a perfect Christian? I don't see how anybody can follow the Bible's commands entirely without being a vegetable with no desires or emotions.



Welcome to the concept of any *literal* dogma or mindset, automation.


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## Xyloxi (Oct 8, 2011)

mr_shadow said:


> Does the Church of England have homosexual and/or female priests btw?



Yes, it does. I believe there is a gay bishop somewhere also, though homosexual clergy have to remain celibate.


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## Coteaz (Oct 8, 2011)

thunderbear said:


> Well, if you're all right believing that God's word changes to fit the culture, then I guess I can't stop you :3


"God's word" has been changed so many times by now that it really doesn't matter.


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## Nemesis (Oct 8, 2011)

Question why does paul get so much importance in the bible considering to very very very important facts need to be pointed out.

A) He never met Christ

and more importantly 

B) He is NOT Jesus.   Surely the only person who should count in NT is Jesus and not anyone else speaking for him since all we know they could be sprouting BS in his name.


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## Chessmaster (Oct 8, 2011)

well this is gay.


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## dr_shadow (Oct 8, 2011)

Btw what I said is that _according to Lutheranism as understood by the Church of Sweden_ you can pretty much do whatever you want as long as you love God and love your fellow humans.

Having read the Bible I have the opinion that, based on it's internal criteria, Jesus never rejects the Old Testament. The correct version of Christianity should be Messianic Judaism, where you behave like a Jew but in addition accept Jesus as the Messiah.

I don't really like Paul and agree much more with James and Peter.

The Scandinavian national churches have faced up to the fact that religion now operates in a free market ruled by supply and demand. To keep their members, the churches have to supply the kind of Christianity that people want. I.e supply baptisms, weddings and funerals as well as politicaly correct sermons on Sundays that are carefuly written not to offend anyone.


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## Bishop (Oct 8, 2011)

Nemesis said:


> Question why does paul get so much importance in the bible considering to very very very important facts need to be pointed out.
> 
> A) He never met Christ
> 
> ...



This is a very, very good question Nemesis.



@A): Though he was not a frequent traveler with Jesus, Paul did indeed meet with the Spirit of Jesus. Paul was originally Saul, a man who's hobby was to seek out and persecute those who followed Jesus.  While on a mission to Damascus to capture and imprison Christians (though not called that at the time), Saul saw Jesus' spirit, and converted after an exchange of words. 


@B) In that time, in order to do anything you needed a hierarchy to achieve things. Though Jesus preached and did miracles, he steadily talked about how his disciples' job was to teach what he taught and spread the word. Jesus mainly taught 12 men so they could spread the word. After this, he charged his diciples to "drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness." Matt 10:1

The reason why Paul is so important is because of his influence. Paul traveled over 12 countries to preach the word and start up churches: here is the journey of just his second mission alone


With that, Paul had a great deal of influence through his teachings and writings. The NT is a documentary on the _Life of Jesus_, then it ends with bonus commentary features by some of his deciples.

On the other end is Peter (really it includes Andrew and James). Peter was the alpha dog of the group (as depicted in Acts, Matthew, and Mark). Jesus personally passed the bulk of the responsibility to Peter in John 21:15-19 


Peter, though hated by the authorities, started a church in the middle of the enemies territory (Rome) and claimed that he was . Peter is important because of Emperor Constantine rather than what he did. Peter, with the help of Andrew and James, built a fundamental approach to how to have church and what to do. However, many of his people (especially James) were killed in brutal ways for many years until the rise of Constantine. There is a book on this that is rent-able in colleges (I think the history of religion and Constantine).

People look more towards Paul and Peter (and Martin Luther) because they outlined a more practical approach to how to be a Christian.


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## dr_shadow (Oct 8, 2011)

Paul was also important to the Romans (first country to adopt Christianity as official religion) because he held that Europeans, and by extention any foreigners, could go to Heaven and should be converted.

Peter was more focused on converting the Jews. While I don't think he outright _rejected_ foreigners converting, he felt that winning the original People of God took priority.

You can imagine that early European Christians preferred the thinker who said Jews and Europeans are equal over the one who thinks Jews are superior to all others before God.


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## Perseverance (Oct 8, 2011)

I just don't get xtians, I really don't. How can you let your religion constantly be changed like this? 

Actually, a better question, how can you possibly *negotiate with god*? The same god you worship and pray towards, is the same god who's laws you reject. 

I think that if your god existed, he'd be pissed that you contradict his command, but he'd be more pissed @ people twisting his words to make it seem like it's allowed.

Homosexuality has and never will be allowed in your religion, yet here you are, embracing it.  Trully feel sorry for those who know this is wrong.

Anyways, not like I have anything to complain about. The more homo's you embrace, the easier it is for us to outnumber you. All of which would done through a natural way, called infertility


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## Nemesis (Oct 8, 2011)

mr_shadow said:


> Paul was also important to the Romans (first country to adopt Christianity as official religion) because he held that Europeans, and by extention any foreigners, could go to Heaven and should be converted.
> 
> Peter was more focused on converting the Jews. While I don't think he outright _rejected_ foreigners converting, he felt that winning the original People of God took priority.
> 
> You can imagine that early European Christians preferred the thinker who said Jews and Europeans are equal over the one who thinks Jews are superior to all others before God.



Actually Armenia was infront of Rome in the Official adoption of Christianity.  Even Constantine never actually had the empire adopt it only legalized it.  His decendents did more to make it official, most of which included persectuting and shutting down temples and festivals of other religions (Like the Ancient Olympics). 



> Having read the Bible I have the opinion that, based on it's internal criteria, Jesus never rejects the Old Testament. The correct version of Christianity should be Messianic Judaism, where you behave like a Jew but in addition accept Jesus as the Messiah.



That is correct and even said so literally



> @A): Though he was not a frequent traveler with Jesus, Paul did indeed meet with the Spirit of Jesus. Paul was originally Saul, a man who's hobby was to seek out and persecute those who followed Jesus. While on a mission to Damascus to capture and imprison Christians (though not called that at the time), Saul saw Jesus' spirit, and converted after an exchange of words.



Ah ok I can see why that would make sense from a christian POV.  Though TBH it could also be Saul/Paul tired of his hobby or realising how great the conviction of christians had decided to do a turn to be able to gain more influence and add his own little spin on what was a growing faith at the time.


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## Superstars (Oct 8, 2011)

Mael said:


> Where did God say anything about this specific issue being a problem?
> 
> Can you show us?


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## Yami Munesanzun (Oct 8, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> I just don't get xtians, I really don't. How can you let your religion constantly be changed like this?
> 
> Actually, a better question, how can you possibly *negotiate with god*? The same god you worship and pray towards, is the same god who's laws you reject.
> 
> ...



lol, wut?

with the amount of guys killing themselves as _suicide bombers_, i highly doubt _you guys_ would outnumber_ us_.

and even if _you_ did, _we_ still have the superior tech, so. 

and with that out of the way, i love how you take this as saying "everybody's going gay" and even if they were, it's called a surrogate mother and sperm banks.

not to mention that superior tech i mentioned earlier. 

so whatever point you were trying to make was negated before you even tried to make it.


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## Perseverance (Oct 8, 2011)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> lol, wut?
> 
> with the amount of guys killing themselves as _suicide bombers_, i highly doubt _you guys_ would outnumber_ us_.
> 
> ...



1. You have technology today and whilst we had it yesterday. Tomorrow, who knows who'll have it 

2. Sperm bank - thats just great for society, having kids who never meet or know who their fathers were 

You'll be the cause of your own destruction, just saying


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## Mael (Oct 8, 2011)

Says the man plugging a religion akin to orks.


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## Coteaz (Oct 8, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> You'll be the cause of your own destruction, just saying


Don't worry, I'll make sure we all go down together.


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## Bishop (Oct 8, 2011)

Perseverance, the gays of America aren't even 1% of the population.

What, are they going to start a virus that makes America gay? Even half? Even 10%? 

Last time anyone with internet checked, more people in your country and the one you idolize run to America than vice versa. You are a true paradox; though you are a minority when it comes to common sense, you add to the saturation of retardation hovering around the internet.

Whether you agree or disagree with the 'Gay Agenda' is one thing (no one should be forced to agree), but to proclaim total failure of a people is so retarded it's its own fallacy.

Source:


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## Perseverance (Oct 8, 2011)

Bishop said:


> Perseverance, the gays of America aren't even 1% of the population.
> 
> What, are they going to start a virus that makes America gay? Even half? Even 10%?
> 
> ...



Actually I never claimed anything in the short term, nor did I say hetro's would be extinct.

 I just evidently stated that over time as you are populated with more homosexuals (due to your over-acceptance), your fertility rate would also drop.


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## Bishop (Oct 8, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> Actually I never claimed anything in the short term, nor did I say hetro's would be extinct.
> 
> I just evidently stated that over time as you are populated with more homosexuals (due to your over-acceptance), your fertility rate would also drop.



_Over-acceptance_: It's so widely accepted that the Fed gov't has a hard time passing these laws into effect. It's so widely accepted that we have more kids put out on the street for being gay. It's so widely accepted that there is a massive group gaining momentum to overturn these events as well as stop LBGT.

Look Percy, you cannot predict the future on something so irrelevant as this when we have technology to change it now and have yet to discover many things. Though I don't think you should believe the 'Gays' are good and think you should accept everything, you shouldn't confidently state something with no merit. You can not cite a time where gays became numerous and wiped out a people as a whole.

Also, we want our fertility rate to drop, so, good thing, eh. But even if homosexuals comprised 50% of the American people, there are too many ways to have kids. Yes, it is proven in every study that to not have a father handi-caps, but people don't care now-a-days, and it's their choice; good or bad.

When your batteries go out, and the light dims to the point that you can no longer stare at America, you will be forced to look at the land you idolize, and bud, you'll have to lie to yourself just to fell normal. The gays in America are happier than the average person in your land.


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## Perseverance (Oct 8, 2011)

Bishop said:


> The gays in America are happier than the average person in your land.



Well, as you can imagine, it's not easy when your *lands are stolen/under foreign and brutal occupation.*

It wasn't too long ago when the literacy/satisfactory living standards in our lands were at a higher ratio then what europe has even today. One day, the tables will be reversed again, I'm sure.

I suppose, time will tell, I personally don't think the embracing of gays are going to have much positive effects towards your future society. I'm sure, HIV/AIDS won't be the last of it.


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## Bishop (Oct 9, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> Well, as you can imagine, it's not easy when your *lands are stolen/under foreign and brutal occupation.*
> 
> It wasn't too long ago when the literacy rate in our lands were at a higher ratio then what europe has even today. One day, the tables will be reversed again, I'm sure.
> 
> I suppose, time will tell, I personally don't think the embracing of gays are going to have much positive effects towards your future society. I'm sure, HIV/AIDS won't be the last of it.



That first part is irrelevant to the topic at hand and irrelevant to me.

It maybe that the tables will turn; time will tell.

Maybe a cure will be found, maybe not. Fact is, not that many people die of HIV/AIDS when indexed in the USA. Unfortunately, most of the people with HIV/AIDS in USA are black people (over 50%), so it's not prevalent from a person to person basis.

Source: 

Table:
Estimated HIV diagnoses in 2009 by race/ethnicity


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## PikaCheeka (Oct 9, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> 2. Sperm bank - thats just great for society, having kids who never meet or know who their fathers were



No matter how commonplace sperm banks may become, the majority of the people who never knew their fathers will never have known them because birth control was not used.


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## Yami Munesanzun (Oct 9, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> *1. You have technology today and whilst we had it yesterday. Tomorrow, who knows who'll have it *
> 
> 2. Sperm bank - thats just great for society, having kids who never meet or know who their fathers were
> 
> You'll be the cause of your own destruction, just saying



wut? you guys had those stealth fighters yesterday? wut?  last time i checked, the Talitowelbands don't. 

yea, because as we all know, a two-woman marriage with a child cannot prosper. 

oh, but wait, in a 2-male marriage, they have a father, so. 


i dont see how people with a homosexual orientation has anything to do with infertility.  a lion breeding with a tiger is possible, but the offspring will be infertile.

a horse and a donkey can breed to produce a mule, but the mule will be infertile.

since a gay couple are incapable of actually breeding themselves, they are not infertile, just incapable of doing _the thing_ themselves. hence - surrogate mothers and sperm banks.


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## maj1n (Oct 9, 2011)

nemesis said:
			
		

> Question why does paul get so much importance in the bible considering to very very very important facts need to be pointed out.
> 
> A) He never met Christ
> 
> ...


Simply put, in a practical sense, important people of the Church took Pauls work seriously, usually because it was in agreeance with their viewpoints.

Clement cites Pauls work, as one of authority in wisdom of christianity, later after him Ignateious does the same, these are the fathers of christian Church.

In terms of doctrine, Paul gave a very good and useful interpretation for the New Testament and Christian community, at the time of course you have disagreement between the Jews and Christians, whereby the Old Testament is cited as authority, attempting to undermine the christian community, Paul essentially said there is now a 'new covenant' between God and Christians, overwriting the old covenant (in the form of the judaic religious beliefs with God).

The canonisation of the Bible of today, that is, the texts put together to be the bible of today, by circumstance, Pauls letters were included, an add-on to the Diatesseron (the precursor bible by tatian) and adding a few other texts, most likely done by the Syrian Church first.


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## Thor (Oct 9, 2011)

Christianity and homosexuality don't mix. Why won't gays let Christianity go, so Christians will end their butthurt and leave them alone?


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## Mael (Oct 9, 2011)

Perseverance, your religion's behavior is that of an ork's.

Nothing else to say, brother.


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## Petes12 (Oct 9, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> I just don't get xtians, I really don't. How can you let your religion constantly be changed like this?
> 
> Actually, a better question, how can you possibly *negotiate with god*? The same god you worship and pray towards, is the same god who's laws you reject.
> 
> ...



You are completely retarded.


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