# Itachi vs Tobirama



## Seon (Sep 27, 2013)

No restrictions,Itachi is healthy and restored vision.


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## Garcher (Sep 27, 2013)

Itachi takes this. i think a genjutsu + kunai is enough for him, there's nothing Tobirama can do against Itachi


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Sep 27, 2013)

Tobirama takes this. i think hiraishin + gojō kibakufuda is enough for him, there's nothing Itachi can do against Tobirama


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

Tobirama takes this 8/10 times. Base Itachi's skills won't cut it. Katon < suiton. Tobirama has more chakra so his suiton overpower Itachi's. Exploding clones can be dealt with using hiraishin and sensing. So, itachi has to absolutely use MS. 

However, Amaterasu can be avoided by anyone who knows it is coming and has speed at least equal to V2 Raikage. Tobirama can sense the chakra buildup and use hiraishin. Same thing with magamata and totsuka sword.

Itachi's only chance is genjutsu and tsukuyomi at that. However, genjutsu does not work on Kage bunshin and knowing that he is fighting a Uchiha, Nidaime will use it to avoid genjutsu. Also, he can use hiraishin goshun mawashi to replace a clone caught in genjutsu with another. However, given Itschi's dexterity with genjutsu I give him 2/10 chance that he could trick nidaime. This is easier said than done since nidaime has proven to be more intelligent than Itachi (superior Justu creation, equal battle analysis, superior cunning). 

On the other hand, itachi needs susano'o to defend against Tobirama. Using Edo tensei, itachi will be pressured by constant explosions and need susano'o. Thanks to hiraishin, he won't seal the zombies because Tobirama can teleport them out of danger. If he goes in for CQC combat (he did against Bi, Kakashi), he could easily get tagged and killed. However, more likely than not suzano'o saves him until he runs out of chakra and is left defenseless and gets killed


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## Garcher (Sep 27, 2013)

-snip- how does hirashin helps Tobirama against Itachi? He has no marks on kunai's or so. gojō kibakufuda kills himself and Itachi blocks it easy with Yata Mirror.

Itachi can just oneshot him with sharingan genjutsu, amaterasu, tsuku and Totsuka + his overall fighting skills are way above Tobirama.

 we are talking about healthy Itachi-snip- Not the near to death, 95% blind, trying to loose Itachi.

you gave me neg rep because Tobirama is far above Itachi because he's fighting Juubito? ridiculous. 1. he is useless against juubito, all he does is using FTG to support, and we know Minato's FTG is better. with your way to base his strength, he's at alliance fodder level


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Sep 27, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> idiot, how does hirashin helps Tobirama against Itachi? He has no marks on kunai's or so. gojō kibakufuda kills himself and Itachi blocks it easy with Yata Mirror.
> 
> Itachi can just oneshot him with sharingan genjutsu, amaterasu, tsuku and Totsuka + his overall fighting skills are way above Tobirama.
> 
> ...


Why the rage and insults? Relax, its just a manga. Pretty sad (life) to be so obsessed about a fictional character.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> idiot, how does hirashin helps Tobirama against Itachi? He has no marks on kunai's or so. gojō kibakufuda kills himself and Itachi blocks it easy with Yata Mirror.
> 
> Itachi can just oneshot him with sharingan genjutsu, amaterasu, tsuku and Totsuka + his overall fighting skills are way above Tobirama.
> 
> ...



1. Try not to insult people. It is not conducive to more discussion. I know he negged you but so what?
2. Tobirama can use hiraishin goshun mawashi with a clone or a zombie to avoid all those attacks you mentioned 
3. Plus, you are wrong about hiraishin markers. Tobirama puts them on the ground. He teleported Naruto, Minato and Hiruzen back where Sasuke was. How did he do it unless he had a marker on the ground
4. All the things you mention that Itachi can one shot him with are dealt with in my OP
5. To say that Tobirama is useless against Obito is blind fanaticism. He is the only one who has marked Obito not once but twice. He was the reason why Obito got hurt and had to regenerate. Without his hiraishin, Naruto would never have hurt Obito.


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## ThunderCunt (Sep 27, 2013)

Well, that escalated quickly though I was thinking something like this would happen sooner or later.


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## Garcher (Sep 27, 2013)

people who say Tobirama is above Itachi are the same who doubt Hashi is stronger than him. Because Tobirama is so strong via FTG. The way you argue Tobirama could defeat anyone lol. blablabla.Tobirama has no feats. 

you don't even know if he has at least one edo tensei, and if so, they are more than pathetic - they are even weaker than Orochimaru's. easy solo via totsuka.
How do you know Tobirama can sense chakra building up in Itachi's eyes? Tell me the chapter + page, just Jubito showed this ability, and he's beyond logic.
you simply don't  bear in mind that Tobirama has no unlimited chakra. the fact that he just was able to make 3 kage bunshin while Hashirama could create a lot more MOKUTON bunshin. Another factor is that he wasn't able to achieve sage mode, so his chakra/ body strength/ senju haxx whatever are even below Jirayas.

So, Tobirama can spam Hirashin all day to avoid some attacks if you want so and he will run out of chakra , but HOW will he have a chance to actually hit Itachi? Again, as long Itachi isn't marked FTG is USELESS to attack. 
All the suiton jutsu he showed until know are easy to dodge for healthy Itachi, in emergency blocked by Yata. 

To base someone's strength by the opponent he's fighting ( I tell you again, Tobirama is just supporting Nardo and Sasgay). Tobirama did NOTHING to juubito after all. it was NARDO who damaged him and even this didn't really hurt Juubito.
You simply COMPLETLY underestimate healthy Itachi, again, this is NOT 95% blind, near to death, with chakra level of a genin, trying to loose Itachi like in Itachi vs Sasuke. all other fights he simply stomped ANYONE. Orochimaru 2x, Kakashi, Deidara, and even vs  SM Kabuto ( in fact, he had to protect Sasuke more or less) And did you remember how Danzo pissed himself when he saw Itachi in Sasgay's genjutsu?

as you see, there's no reason to see Tobirama as a superstrong guy who stomps Itachi, lol. The manga feats simply say so. 

Itachi takes this still 10/10


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2013)

Tobirama takes this. His Suitons would counter Itachi's Katons and overpower Itachi's own Suitons. Tobirama with his speed and sensing should be more than a match for Itachi in CQC and he has his own Bushin to counter Itachi's Bushin; only difference is he can probably make more Bushin than Itachi due to superior stamina. Genjutsu and Amaterasu are non-issues here since Tobirama will be able to sense the chakra build up in Itachi's eyes with Sensing and simply evade the techniques ether with his own speed of FTG. Once Tobirama starts getting more KB, Edo Tensei, &/or FTG Markers on the field Itachi will quickly be forced to defend Tobirama's attacks with Susano'o. 

At this point if Itachi's Susano'o can tank multiple gojō kibakufuda than he may manage to Totasuk blitz an seal the Tensei (though that in part depends on the number of Tensei & how the Tensei's skills combo with Tobirama's). However Tobirama due to FTG, Sensing, and Shunshin should still not have much issue evading Itachi's attacks. Really Itachi's only avenue for victory here would be to locate all of Tobirama's FTG makers & KB, wiping them out with Susano'o and than attacking Tobirama before he had a chance to set more. Not only would this be excessively difficult to accomplish just from a practical stand-point, but it will also be very difficult to accomplish while still maintain enough stamina to deliver that final Susano'o attack to Tobirama once this is completed. On the flip side of this Tobirama really only needs to get a marker or clone close to Susano'o to teleport Susano'o away and than finished Itachi off with a successive strike.

So I favor Tobirama winning here far more often than not. Make it Edo Itachi and than that would be a much closer fight.


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## Coppur (Sep 27, 2013)

One thing to note about Tobirama is his vast experience fighting Uchihas, so due to this, sensing, and Hiraishin, he can simply dodge everything in Itachi's aresenal. To beat Tobirama, Itachi will have to spam MS techniques to extreme measures, which he doesn't have the chakra to do. However, due to Itachi's intelligence and power in general, it is only natural Tobirama wins high-difficulty.


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## Ghost (Sep 27, 2013)

Tobirama gets caught in genjutsu.


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## The World (Sep 27, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> Itachi takes this. i think a genjutsu + kunai is enough for him, there's nothing Tobirama can do against Itachi





saikyou said:


> Tobirama gets caught in genjutsu.



As if Tobirama hasn't been fighting Uchiha his whole life


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## Rocky (Sep 27, 2013)

The World said:


> As if Tobirama hasn't been fighting Uchiha his whole life



It just means that he's aware of it, not immune to it.


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## Garcher (Sep 27, 2013)

The World said:


> As if Tobirama hasn't been fighting Uchiha his whole life



Guess who killed all Uchiha like fodder?


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## Darth (Sep 27, 2013)

I feel like every Mangekyou Sharingan tech that Itachi has at his disposal is better than anything Tobirama has. 

Can Sharingan read Hirashin? Probably not. If Itachi has any knowledge on Tobirama's abilities it should be a relatively onesided fight. Susano'o can block a surprise Hiraishin attack fairly easily and Tobirama might find himself attacking a Karasu bunshin and getting caught by a Tsukiyomi.


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## Garcher (Sep 27, 2013)

The World said:


> As if Tobirama hasn't been fighting Uchiha his whole life


but he never defeated them ( stabbing Izuna in a large fight from the back doesn't count)
Guess who killed all Uchiha like fodder?


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## Xeros (Sep 27, 2013)

Kakashi wins Kamui GG


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> people who say Tobirama is above Itachi are the same who doubt Hashi is stronger than him. Because Tobirama is so strong via FTG. The way you argue Tobirama could defeat anyone lol. blablabla.



I don't believe Tobirama is stronger than Hashirama. You sound a little desperate



Itachi the Best said:


> Tobirama has no feats.



Do you know what a feat is? A feat is accomplishment. Using hiraishin is a feat. At least know what you are talking about



Itachi the Best said:


> you don't even know if he has at least one edo tensei, and if so, they are more than pathetic - they are even weaker than Orochimaru's. easy solo via totsuka.



1. Did you read the OP? It says no restrictions. So, he has edo tensei
2. It does not matter what their unique strength is. I only used them for explosion 
3. How does Itachi seal someone that Tobirama can move with hiraishin



Itachi the Best said:


> How do you know Tobirama can sense chakra building up in Itachi's eyes? Tell me the chapter + page, just Jubito showed this ability, and he's beyond logic.



Both Obito and Nagato showed it and chucked it up to sensing



Itachi the Best said:


> you simply don't  bear in mind that Tobirama has no unlimited chakra. the fact that he just was able to make 3 kage bunshin while Hashirama could create a lot more MOKUTON bunshin. Another factor is that he wasn't able to achieve sage mode, so his chakra/ body strength/ senju haxx whatever are even below Jirayas.



This is Tobirama vs. Itachi. It only matters that he has more chakra than Itachi



Itachi the Best said:


> So, Tobirama can spam Hirashin all day to avoid some attacks if you want so and he will run out of chakra , but HOW will he have a chance to actually hit Itachi? Again, as long Itachi isn't marked FTG is USELESS to attack.
> All the suiton jutsu he showed until know are easy to dodge for healthy Itachi, in emergency blocked by Yata.



Itachi cannot maintain susano'o for long. Soon enough, he runs out of chakra and Tobirama kills him using hiraishingiri



Itachi the Best said:


> To base someone's strength by the opponent he's fighting ( I tell you again, Tobirama is just supporting Nardo and Sasgay). Tobirama did NOTHING to juubito after all. it was NARDO who damaged him and even this didn't really hurt Juubito.



This is rather pathetic because I did not base Tobirama's strength on the fact that he was fighting Obito. You are the one who brought up Obito and I simply corrected the false statement you made that Tobirama had been useless in that fight



Itachi the Best said:


> You simply COMPLETLY underestimate healthy Itachi, again, this is NOT 95% blind, near to death, with chakra level of a genin, trying to loose Itachi like in Itachi vs Sasuke. all other fights he simply stomped ANYONE. Orochimaru 2x, Kakashi, Deidara, and even vs  SM Kabuto ( in fact, he had to protect Sasuke more or less) And did you remember how Danzo pissed himself when he saw Itachi in Sasgay's genjutsu?



All of this is irrelevant. The title of the OP is not how strong is Itachi but Itachi vs. Tobirama. If it was not clear to you before, you need to argue the two characters not third party characters



Itachi the Best said:


> as you see, there's no reason to see Tobirama as a superstrong guy who stomps Itachi, lol. The manga feats simply say so.



Sorry but bringing up people who have nothing to do with Tobirama is not a valid argument. 



Itachi the Best said:


> Itachi takes this still 10/10



Unfortunately you have not proven how he does it. I suggest you don't rant next time and present a coherent and cogent argument that takes into consideration both characters' abilities. Furthermore, I suggest that you respond with a counterargument to the merit of my post not just write a wall of text with your views on Itachi


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Sep 27, 2013)

LMFAOWROFL for you fools actually arguing that tobirama could actually beat the version of itachi that sasuke fought, much less this even more powerful healthy body and eyes version which is Edo itachi without the regeneration lol...

How does tobirama beat itachi with some zabuza level water jutsu, genin level edos (one or two max summon) and a hirashin that depend on direct contact against a shinobi who mostly uses indirect attacks of kage, crow or even genjutsu bushin to draw out counter attacks and defense so another bushin can come from the other direction and own you while the real itachi sits back and watches the whole thing from a safe distance...

*Abilites comparison..*.
: Base itachi can easily dodge or counter any zabuza level water jutsu with his own...
: Base itachi with just the SG can easily keep form having direct contact thus hirashin is negeated...
: MS itachi can use amaterasu to burn the edo's faster then they can regenerate as shown with nagato, thus they will be immobilized by the flames coupled with the use fo the totsuka sword that blitz at a very high speed to seal away the edos and tobirama as well...

FEATS comparison...
: Itachi in mere seconds beat orochimaru, twice. as well as deidara and nagato, plus the easy defeat of kakashi, holding back a ton, but easily defeating hebi sasuke and last but not least is dragon sage Kabuto... WHo only gave itachi some toruble due to itachi having to protect sasuke... Other then that, Itachi owned dragon sage kabuto who was closer to the sage of six paths then anyone other then Juubito right now...

Vs...
: Almost died Vs kin and gin with the 2nd raikage's help fightning them ...
: Managed to mortally wound Izuna who was not evne using ANY MS jutsu, and by what looked like an ambush after allot of fightning menaing izuna oculd have been out of chakra whcih is why he could nto use any MS jutsu too...
: And died against 20 fodder shinobi...
: Edo tobirama was one shoted by v1 imperfect Juubito while edo minato and his clone easily brushed off the same level of attack while busy doing something else too.
: edo tobirama even using hirashin could not kand an attack on Juubito who not even trying to counter attack, just letting Tobirama blitz him at will, but not until he had the assistance of a more armed minato was he able to land an attack using hirashin...

It is obvious who has the better abilites and feats... Showing who would win and who would obviously lose by a large margin... *cough* tobirama *cough*...


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## 2Broken (Sep 27, 2013)

Lot of room for fandom in this thread.....


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 27, 2013)

I'd go with Tobirama in this one. Tobirama can't really get through _Susanoo_, but even if he is healthy, I still don't think Itachi has enough stamina to hit Tobirama before he has to deactivate _Susanoo_.


However, Edo Itachi should beat Tobirama due to him not having this problem.


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## Coppur (Sep 27, 2013)

@Senju Clan: I wouldn't try, he's obviously a troll.


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## Garcher (Sep 27, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Do you know what a feat is? A feat is accomplishment. Using hiraishin is a feat. At least know what you are talking about


A feat that he can support in a 4 vs 1 fight. Tell me something that he really accomplished besides stabbing the completly featless Izuna in a large fight and loosing to Ginkaku/Kinkaku who where defeated by Darui. A Jonin.



Senjuclan said:


> 1. Did you read the OP? It says no restrictions. So, he has edo tensei
> 2. It does not matter what their unique strength is. I only used them for explosion


But he never used it. In fact it was forbidden probably by his brother or himself, because of "inhumanity" or something like that. You have no guarantee that he EVER sacrificed another human and bound another soul to this world.
Please read, the explosions effect Tobirama and potential Kage Bunshin as well. Unless he has preparations he can't port away. Over that, Explosions have no effect on Yata Mirror. 




Senjuclan said:


> Both Obito and Nagato showed it and chucked it up to sensing


But Tobirama hasn't shown it yet. You don't know if he is able to do it at all. It's same as saying Sasgay could have Kamui, he may have MS/EMS, but you don't know. ( Before you say this is a stupid example because you just can have 1 jutsu in one eye, Sasgay has already Enton, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi ( what is needed to awake Susanoo).




Senjuclan said:


> This is Tobirama vs. Itachi. It only matters that he has more chakra than Itachi


This is healthy Itachi, ya know. We just can estimate his stamina, but with refreshed eyesight he should be at current Sasuke. But how you can say Tobirama has signifacant more chakra, what he needs to spam Hirashin ( btw, we don't even know how advanced his FTG was, but the fact that he wasn't called "Konaha's blue flash" speaks for himself) - we only know he had not enough chakra for Sage Mode. 
So how you come to the conclusion Tobirama has so much chakra? Just because Senju genetic? If you look in the data book, Tsunade's chakra is on the same level of Sasuke's at the beginning of part 2, so it is absolute stupid to assume that he has significant more chakra than a heathly Itachi. 



Senjuclan said:


> All of this is irrelevant. The title of the OP is not how strong is Itachi but Itachi vs. Tobirama. If it was not clear to you before, you need to argue the two characters not third party characters


But this manga feats make clear that Itachi is incredible strong, he didn't even went all-out 1 time in order to defeat his enemies. 
The point is, the manga has never shown  Itachi's true power, what he  REALLY is able to do if he was at perfectly health. But in Battledome matchups all what counts are the power limits of character, and through the manga Itachi's are upward wide opened. 




Senjuclan said:


> Unfortunately you have not proven how he does it. I suggest you don't rant next time and present a coherent and cogent argument that takes into consideration both characters' abilities. Furthermore, I suggest that you respond with a counterargument to the merit of my post not just write a wall of text with your views on Itachi



Now satisfied? 

Itachi wins still.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> A feat that he can support in a 4 vs 1 fight. Tell me something that he really accomplished besides stabbing the completly featless Izuna in a large fight and loosing to Ginkaku/Kinkaku who where defeated by Darui. A Jonin.



I don't need to answer your question. Your claim was that he had no feats. I educated you on the meaning of the word and now you know that your earlier claim was wrong. I don't need to bring up all his other feats as they are not germane to the OP



Itachi the Best said:


> But he never used it. In fact it was forbidden probably by his brother or himself, because of "inhumanity" or something like that. You have no guarantee that he EVER sacrificed another human and bound another soul to this world.



He did use it as Madara said. Chiyo also said that he used it. Muu knew that he had a habit of using the jutsu and so did Kin-Gin brothers

Labeling a jutsu a kinjutsu does not mean that said jutsu won't ever be used. Hashirama labeled tajuu kage bunshin a kinjutsu but he uses it himself. Edo tensei was labeled a kinjutsu so that he could not be taught to others



Itachi the Best said:


> Please read, the explosions effect Tobirama and potential Kage Bunshin as well. Unless he has preparations he can't port away. Over that, Explosions have no effect on Yata Mirror.



1. The explosions were designed to be used by edo tensei zombies
2. Tobirama can port away at any time using hiraishi to avoid the explosion. Setting up preparation to port away is simple since he has set up preparation during this war to port away without making a fuss over it
3. How long can Itachi sustain yata mirror? This is exactly what will doom him, he has to use MS to defend against an opponent he can't hit



Itachi the Best said:


> But Tobirama hasn't shown it yet. You don't know if he is able to do it at all. It's same as saying Sasgay could have Kamui, he may have MS/EMS, but you don't know. ( Before you say this is a stupid example because you just can have 1 jutsu in one eye, Sasgay has already Enton, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi ( what is needed to awake Susanoo).



Tobirama is a sensor. Those guys used sensing to determine when someone is building up chakra in his eyes = sensors can do that. 

Your argument is like saying that Itachi cannot copy jutsus because he has not shown the ability in the manga. It is a sensing feat, so he can do it



Itachi the Best said:


> This is healthy Itachi, ya know. We just can estimate his stamina, but with refreshed eyesight he should be at current Sasuke.



Healthy Itachi has as much chakra as sick Itachi. If you say otherwise, then explain to me how sick Kimmimaru had so much chakra and where the manga says that sickness affects chakra quantity



Itachi the Best said:


> But how you can say Tobirama has signifacant more chakra, what he needs to spam Hirashin ( btw, we don't even know how advanced his FTG was, but the fact that he wasn't called "Konaha's blue flash" speaks for himself) - we only know he had not enough chakra for Sage Mode.



1. Tobirama has enough chakra to fight for a full day. So, we know he has more chakra than Itachi
2. How do you know that he does not have enough chakra for sage mode. Show me the panel where it was said that he tried to learn sage mode but found out that he does not have the chakra for it



Itachi the Best said:


> So how you come to the conclusion Tobirama has so much chakra? Just because Senju genetic? If you look in the data book, Tsunade's chakra is on the same level of Sasuke's at the beginning of part 2, so it is absolute stupid to assume that he has significant more chakra than a heathly Itachi.



I already answered this question



Itachi the Best said:


> But this manga feats make clear that Itachi is incredible strong, he didn't even went all-out 1 time in order to defeat his enemies.
> The point is, the manga has never shown  Itachi's true power, what he  REALLY is able to do if he was at perfectly health. But in Battledome matchups all what counts are the power limits of character, and through the manga Itachi's are upward wide opened.



Irrelevant to the OP. Stick to arguments about the OP



Itachi the Best said:


> Now satisfied?
> 
> Itachi wins still.



You get an A for effort and a C- for argument. Your argument is that Itachi has been shown to be strong, therefore he wins. That is a bad argument. You need to actually show how Itachi wins and bypasses the nidaime's arsenal. Look at how I presented my case. I went through all of Itachi's arsenal (base skills + MS + genjutsu) to show that Tobirama could deal with them 8/10 times but then made clear that there was 2/10 chance that Itachi could catch him in genjutsu. Do the same thing. Don't give me a rant about Itachi. I know you are used to just saying "tsukuyomi gg" or "amaterasu gg" but those arguments are only convincing to your fellow Itachi fans


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## Trojan (Sep 27, 2013)

> Healthy Itachi has as much chakra as sick Itachi. If you say otherwise, then explain to me how sick Kimmimaru had so much chakra and where the manga says that sickness affects chakra quantity



I agree! I have always wanted to know from where did itachi's fans came up with these things!


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## GKY (Sep 27, 2013)

Tobirama wins more often than not. He has one of the few legitimately viable counters to Amaterasu (sensing + FTG away). Also, strong suiton> average katon. Still, Itachi is a pretty bad matchup for Tobirama, since both genjutsu (especially Tsukuyomi) and Totsuka are one shots, where as he doesn't have any jutsu so far that can legitimately one shot Itachi. Still, I think he'll be able to rely on his sensing, speed, clones, and edo tensie (assuming he has some week ones preped) to avoid Itachi long enough to wear him out. I'd say Tobirama takes it, but honestly the more I think about it the more I see Itachi having a good chance. 2nd hokage wins 6.5/10.



Senjuclan said:


> Healthy Itachi has as much chakra as sick Itachi. If you say otherwise, then explain to me how sick Kimmimaru had so much chakra and where the manga says that sickness affects chakra quantity



Because Kimmimaro was a chakra beast. If Naruto was sick, he'd still have ridiculous amounts of chakra, just not as much as he's currently showing. 

I tend to disagree with your overall assessment. Firstly, you have to remember Kishi is currently retconning everyone's chakra capacity (see war arc Kakashi). Personally, I believe Kishi sees "healthy Itachi" the same as edo Itachi without regen. This is simply because edo's have shown chakra limitations (like Tobirama only being capable of making 1 clone and Trollkage being weakened when using Jokiboy). Also, Itachi as an edo doesn't seem to be very affected by the MS jutsu, where as it kept making sick Itachi fall down to his knees and cough blood. In part 1 (when he was healthier) Itachi was capable of using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu without much affect. 

Honestly, the whole healthy Itachi vs. sick Itachi argument comes down to whether or not you like the character. Some people see them as the same entity, some see them as vastly different. Just depends on your preferred interpretation.


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## Bonly (Sep 27, 2013)

While I do love me some Itachi() I'd say he would lose more times then not. Tobi has Suitons to counter Itachi's Katons, Suitons to match Itachi's Suitons, speed to keep up with Itachi and deal with anything base Itachi can throw at him. He has chakra sensing to know when Ama is coming to try and get out of Itachi's LoS or he could use Goshun Mawashi at the last second assuming it's fast enough and he has a clone out already. While Tobi doesn't have anything that can successfully get through Susanoo, Itachi can't keep it up for too long as he'll tire out and be a sitting duck. Itachi's only shot at winning is if he successfully caught Tobi in a genjutsu and then finished him off.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

GKY said:


> Because Kimmimaro was a chakra beast. If Naruto was sick, he'd still have ridiculous amounts of chakra, just not as much as he's currently showing.
> 
> I tend to disagree with your overall assessment. Firstly, you have to remember Kishi is currently retconning everyone's chakra capacity (see war arc Kakashi). Personally, I believe Kishi sees "healthy Itachi" the same as edo Itachi without regen. This is simply because edo's have shown chakra limitations (like Tobirama only being capable of making 1 clone and Trollkage being weakened when using Jokiboy). Also, Itachi as an edo doesn't seem to be very affected by the MS jutsu, where as it kept making sick Itachi fall down to his knees and cough blood. In part 1 (when he was healthier) Itachi was capable of using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu without much affect.
> 
> Honestly, the whole healthy Itachi vs. sick Itachi argument comes down to whether or not you like the character. Some people see them as the same entity, some see them as vastly different. Just depends on your preferred interpretation.



So, in other words you have no manga proof. Got it


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## GKY (Sep 27, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> So, in other words you have no manga proof. Got it



So in other words, neither do you. 

With all the inconsistencies in this manga it's not that hard to fathom that either side can be right. And at the end of the day, who cares that much, chakra capacity is obviously decided by plot.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

GKY said:


> So in other words, neither do you.
> 
> With all the inconsistencies in this manga it's not that hard to fathom that either side can be right. And at the end of the day, who cares that much, chakra capacity is obviously decided by plot.



Actually, I don't need to provide proof. you do. If the mangaka has never said some thing, It does not exist


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 27, 2013)

Elia said:


> I agree! I have always wanted to know from where did itachi's fans came up with these things!



Itachi and Kimmimaro are 2 different beings with different sicknesses. Just as AIDS is different from Cancer, Itachi's sickness more than likely drains his chakra. And it makes no sense that someone who is from the Uchiha clan, a clan with excessive chakra reserves, should have that much less chakra than other members of the same clan.


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## GKY (Sep 27, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Actually, I don't need to provide proof. you do. If the mangaka has never said some thing, It does not exist



I've already made a few points my friend. I have yet to see your retort. Plus, the mangaka never stated sick Itachi and healthy Itachi are the same being  

In any case, instead of this blowing into a silly argument that hijacks this thread I think we should agree to disagree. Plus, both we both agree Tobi beats Itachi, so it's a moot point.


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## The World (Sep 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It just means that he's aware of it, not immune to it.



No shit        



Itachi the Best said:


> but he never defeated them ( stabbing Izuna in a large fight from the back doesn't count)
> Guess who killed all Uchiha like fodder?



Izuna does count because Tobirama killed him 

He had been fighting Izuna for years


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## Garcher (Sep 27, 2013)

The World said:


> Izuna does count because Tobirama killed him
> 
> He had been fighting Izuna for years



 So what? We know about Izuna NOTHING. And as I already mentioned, it was a larger battle on not 1 vs 1. So Izuna was probably already weakened when Tobirama came from the back and stabbed him.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> So what? We know about Izuna NOTHING. And as I already mentioned, it was a larger battle on not 1 vs 1. So Izuna was probably already weakened when Tobirama came from the back and stabbed him.



you come across as someone who does not read the manga. 

1. We do know what Izuna had the MS and that he was equal to Madara
2. He was killed in a one-on-one battle against Tobirama during a larger battle. Just like Hashirama fought Madara even though other Senju and Uchiha engaged in battle as well
3. Tobirama teleported to Izuna using hiraishin and cut him. He did not stab him from the back. He was standing in front of him and then teleported and stabbed him


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## Garcher (Sep 27, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> you come across as someone who does not read the manga.
> 
> 1. We do know what Izuna had the MS and that he was equal to Madara
> 2. He was killed in a one-on-one battle against Tobirama during a larger battle. Just like Hashirama fought Madara even though other Senju and Uchiha engaged in battle as well
> 3. Tobirama teleported to Izuna using hiraishin and cut him. He did not stab him from the back. He was standing in front of him and then teleported and stabbed him



so when you say Madara=Izuna you want to imply that Hashi=Tobirama? 

Don't care, Itachi 1# wins this


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## The World (Sep 27, 2013)

Izuna had Mangekyo Sharingan

That's all we need to know

Tobirama likely fought Madara and his father as well albeit with help


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> so when you say Madara=Izuna you want to imply that Hashi=Tobirama?
> 
> Don't care, Itachi 1# wins this



How is that statement even logical? Hashirama is > Madara and therefore superior to Tobirama and Izuna as well. 

You have shown that you are a fangirl of Itachi not someone who actually assesses his power logically


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## Jagger (Sep 27, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> Itachi takes this. i think a genjutsu + kunai is enough for him, there's nothing Tobirama can do against Itachi


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## Sadgoob (Sep 27, 2013)

They're pretty decently matched. The difference is that Tobirama is prone to anger and haughtiness, so I'd definitely see him getting spanked with genjutsu, especially without knowledge of Tsukuyomi.​


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Tobirama would be arrogant, then get spanked with genjutsu.



Actually Itachi would be overconfident, then get spanked with hirainshingiri


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## Sadgoob (Sep 27, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Actually Itachi would be overconfident, then get spanked with hirainshingiri



Evidence of Itachi ever falling for Tobirama's inferior Hiraishin?



'Cause that's Tobirama derping it up at a Mangekyō.


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## The World (Sep 27, 2013)

How exactly is that derping?


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## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Evidence of Itachi ever falling for Tobirama's inferior Hiraishin?
> 
> 
> 
> 'Cause that's Tobirama derping it up at a Mangekyō.



Evidence of Tobirama ever falling for Itachi's inferior tsukuyomi?


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## Sadgoob (Sep 27, 2013)

The World said:


> How exactly is that derping?



Someone that spent their life fighting Uchiha should not be staring at their eyes. For all the talk about Tobirama's intelligence and experience, he didn't show it where it counts, relative to this match.​


Senjuclan said:


> Evidence of Tobirama ever falling for Itachi's inferior tsukuyomi?


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Someone that spent their life fighting Uchiha should not be staring at their eyes. For all the talk about Tobirama's intelligence and experience, he didn't show it where it counts, relative to this match.​



1. I don't see Tobirama falling for anything. So again I ask, evidence of Tobirama falling for Itachi's inferior tsukuyomi?


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## Baroxio (Sep 27, 2013)

Tobirama basically stared straight into an Uchiha's Magenkyou, is what Strategoob is getting at I think.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 27, 2013)

I can confirm Baroxio's speculation. That was indeed what I was getting at.


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## Ennoia (Sep 27, 2013)

Problem is that you are taking that picture out of context. Tobirama was not expecting a fight at that moment nor was Sasuke, Sasuke was merely showing off the fact that he was not a child. While I think he would fall for Tsukuyomi I dont think that is evidence towards that fact.


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2013)

Tobirama would be able to sense whether an Uchiha is gathering chakra into their eyes to use a Genjutsu technique, that's why he can stare down Sasuke w/o fear, because he knows Sasuke isn't gathering chakra for a Genjutsu (not to mention he wasn't there to fight). Also this is the reason why the chances of him getting caught in Tsukuyomi are slim to none.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 28, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Problem is that you are taking that picture out of context. Tobirama was not expecting a fight at that moment nor was Sasuke



Itachi tends to blindside enemies with genjutsu before their guards are raised, so the context is fine.​


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## Baroxio (Sep 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama would be able to sense whether an Uchiha is gathering chakra into their eyes to use a Genjutsu technique, that's why he can stare down Sasuke w/o fear, because he knows Sasuke isn't gathering chakra for a Genjutsu (not to mention he wasn't there to fight). Also this is the reason why the chances of him getting caught in Tsukuyomi are slim to none.


Is that the "sensor" argument? Didn't that argument fail when Danzo used Koto-amatsukami in a room full of sensors without being detected?


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## Rocky (Sep 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Someone that spent their life fighting Uchiha should not be staring at their eyes. For all the talk about Tobirama's intelligence and experience, he didn't show it where it counts, relative to this match.​



Strat I don't understand this argument. Tobirama wasn't fighting Sasuke. They were all talking. There was absolutely no need to avoid eye contact. If Sauce had put him in a Genjutsu there, Hashirama would have just broken it and the 4 Hokage would've slaughtered Taka & Orochimaru for _starting_ a fight (assuming Hashirama could break Oro's hold).

As long as Tobirama is in a combat situation with an Uchiha, he'll avoid it like everyone else does. To what effectiveness is unknown.


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## Baroxio (Sep 28, 2013)

What everyone *should *do =/= what everybody actually does.

Rarely does anybody in the manga actually make an effort to avoid eye contact even when they (supposedly) know not to.


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## Rocky (Sep 28, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Rarely does anybody in the manga actually make an effort to avoid eye contact even when they (supposedly) know not to.



I believe all of the Kage did against Madara, as Ei was only caught when he was restrained and forced.

Also, I think C was avoiding Sasuke's, as he was only caught when he "let his guard down." 

Despite the heavy Uchiha spam going around in the Manga currently, Sharingan Genjutsu has been surprisingly a non-factor. There were no "altered fighting styles" against Madara, Obito, or Jubito to compensate for possible illusions.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 28, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> What everyone *should *do =/= what everybody actually does.
> 
> Rarely does anybody in the manga actually make an effort to avoid eye contact even when they (supposedly) know not to.



it's assumed that they do as that's the canonly explained way to fight sharingan users and 99% of the time sharingan users do land genjutsu, it's because the opponent has zero knowledge about it or gets taken by surprise due to some kind of distraction.

Kishi doesn't have to show naruto using clones every time he uses a rasengan, that doesn't mean naruto doesn't need clones same with combating a sharingan user, he doesn't have to always draw them avoiding eye contact or indicating that they are.



Baroxio said:


> Is that the "sensor" argument? Didn't that argument fail when Danzo used Koto-amatsukami in a room full of sensors without being detected?



passive sensors which is why none of them detected sasuke, karin, juugo or zetsu until he popped up.


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## Rain (Sep 28, 2013)

Tsukuyomi gg.


----------



## crisler (Sep 28, 2013)

The battle between Tobirama and Izuna is important to notice. Dunno if Izuna had susanoo, and how Tobiramas' FTG works (is it exactly the same as Minatos'? dunno)

Anyways...I think I mentioned before how Tobirama has knowledge and experience with MS users and uchiha.

However, confidence from such experience will be his fall. That's what brought down all the enemies that were fighting Itachi: They believed they knew enough about uchiha, and that they're fine as long as they were cautious. Look what happened to oro, deidara, kabuto etc.

Tobirama already displayed that his confidence will bring him trouble, as seen with Oros' edo tensei: he believed he could break control, and was stopped by oro. Tobirama was too confident.

That confident is the greatest weakness of those that fight ITachi. His genjutsu is far above average uchihas, and powerful even for a MS user. 

Considering that Itachi doesn't lack experiential knowledge despite his young age, I believe Itachi will win here.


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## Seon (Sep 28, 2013)

Itachis genjutsu prowess isnt ordinary uchiha genjutsu hes whole fighting style revolves around it


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## The World (Sep 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I can confirm Baroxio's speculation. That was indeed what I was getting at.





He wasn't even fighting Sauce, nor was he worried about anything the Mangekyou could do because

1. He is an Edo Tensei

2. He has his brother by his side

That is probably the worst argument I've ever come across

Kudos on that



crisler said:


> The battle between Tobirama and Izuna is important to notice. Dunno if Izuna had susanoo, and how Tobiramas' FTG works (is it exactly the same as Minatos'? dunno)
> 
> Anyways...I think I mentioned before how Tobirama has knowledge and experience with MS users and uchiha.
> 
> ...



One instance of confidence because he created the technique and thought he could break it is overconfident?

What the fuck? Where do you people come up with this shit?


----------



## crisler (Sep 28, 2013)

The World said:


> One instance of confidence because he created the technique and thought he could break it is overconfident?
> 
> What the fuck? Where do you people come up with this shit?



Whether it was about his jutsu or not, Tobirama made a mistake of thinking he had the upper hand. And you make it sound like it was first time Oro used it. It was the second time, and Tobirama believed Oro made a basic mistake. That is clearly underestimating others. A man who could use Edo tensei...tobirama already praised oro the first time so it's obvious to believe he'd have investigated a lot. Yet, Tobirama thought he was boss. 

A person of such personality would make the same mistake while fighting a relatively young guy like Itachi, as he's experienced with uchihas and MS. After Itachi surprises him Itachi will take the lead in battle as he always does.

If Tobirama were as powerful as his brother or Madara to compensate for such personality...maybe he'll win, but he's not that strong.


----------



## Dominus (Sep 28, 2013)

crisler said:


> The battle between Tobirama and Izuna is important to notice. Dunno if Izuna had susanoo, and how Tobiramas' FTG works (is it exactly the same as Minatos'? dunno)
> 
> Anyways...I think I mentioned before how Tobirama has knowledge and experience with MS users and uchiha.
> 
> ...



Tobirama knows his limits... he could've resisted Orochimaru's control if his body wasn't composed of Hashirama's cells.
He has much more experience in fighting Uchiha than them, once Itachi starts using MS techniques Tobirama will be cautious.
He can sense the build up of chakra in his eyes, so he will know when he's going to use a MS jutsu... when he senses that, he can just use Hiraishin. He can also probably trick him with a clone in a similar way Kakashi did. 
Even if he somehow gets caught in a genjutsu, the shinobi he reincarnates or clones can break him out of it. 

Itachi doesn't really have a surefire way to defeat Tobirama, since he can avoid all of his attacks with Hiraishin, while he can beat Itachi by outlasting him or win with Gojō Kibaku Fuda when Itachi isn't using the final version of his Susanoo. There is also the possibility that he can teleport his Susanoo away somehow.


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Is that the "sensor" argument? Didn't that argument fail when Danzo used Koto-amatsukami in a room full of sensors without being detected?


Your comparing a non-combat situation to a combat-situation. The whole reason why Danzo wasn't detected right away is no one was proactively using their sensing abilities as they didn't expect Danzo to do that during the Kage Summit. Additional Danzo planned this and had hid his sharingan before hand, so people could not see him activate it and pull out MS.

So sure if Tobirama and Itachi sat down to have a peaceful negotiation and Itachi intentionally hid his Sharingans somehow waiting for the exact moment when Tobirama's guard was down the most, perhaps he could cast Tsukuyomi on him, assuming Tobirama wasn't more careful than someone like C in that scenario. 

But that is a ridiculous scenario to put forth in a match where both parties know they are going into combat and would not lower their guard to that extent. Additionally you can easily craft just as ridiculous of a scenario where Tobirama rapes Itachi, such as Tobirama preparing a FTG marking on the chair Itachi sits on at the meeting and than half-way through FTG Blitz's him. So this is totally a fan/troll argument & I think you know that as well as I do.


----------



## Kisame (Sep 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> They're pretty decently matched. The difference is that Tobirama is prone to anger and haughtiness, so I'd definitely see him getting spanked with genjutsu, especially without knowledge of Tsukuyomi.​


I don't think Kishimoto intended to portray Tobirama as being prone to anger and haughtiness. More so strictness.


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## Baroxio (Sep 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Your comparing a non-combat situation to a combat-situation. The whole reason why Danzo wasn't detected right away is no one was proactively using their sensing abilities as they didn't expect Danzo to do that during the Kage Summit. Additional Danzo planned this and had hid his sharingan before hand, so people could not see him activate it and pull out MS.
> 
> So sure if Tobirama and Itachi sat down to have a peaceful negotiation and Itachi intentionally hid his Sharingans somehow waiting for the exact moment when Tobirama's guard was down the most, perhaps he could cast Tsukuyomi on him, assuming Tobirama wasn't more careful than someone like C in that scenario.
> 
> But that is a ridiculous scenario to put forth in a match where both parties know they are going into combat and would not lower their guard to that extent. Additionally you can easily craft just as ridiculous of a scenario where Tobirama rapes Itachi, such as Tobirama preparing a FTG marking on the chair Itachi sits on at the meeting and than half-way through FTG Blitz's him. So this is totally a fan/troll argument & I think you know that as well as I do.


Everyone was proactively suing their sensing abilities though. Fu and Ao were both able to instantly detect that Karin was sensing them. Ei slammed his fist on the table and everyone instantly jumped to surround him.

The meeting of the 5 Kages was a pretty tense situation. You can't argue that people had their guard lowered in that scenario. Not when the kingpin of your entire village could possibly be in danger from 1-4 ninja of equivalent caliber. If it was just a meeting between friends for some tea and crumpets you might have a point, but everybody in that room was clearly prepared for signs of trouble.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 28, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Everyone was proactively suing their sensing abilities though. Fu and Ao were both able to instantly detect that Karin was sensing them. Ei slammed his fist on the table and everyone instantly jumped to surround him.
> 
> The meeting of the 5 Kages was a pretty tense situation. You can't argue that people had their guard lowered in that scenario. Not when the kingpin of your entire village could possibly be in danger from 1-4 ninja of equivalent caliber. If it was just a meeting between friends for some tea and crumpets you might have a point, but everybody in that room was clearly prepared for signs of trouble.



1. During the meeting, ninjutsu was forbidden so the sensors were not using their jutsu. Ao started using ninjutsu when he suspected something was amiss
2. Fu and Ao started using ninjutsu when all he'll broke loose
3. The meeting took place in a neutral territory where ninjutsu was forbidden for a reason.


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## Baroxio (Sep 28, 2013)

Except, that clearly doesn't apply to the bodyguards.


*Spoiler*: __ 









The sensors among them explicitly even sensed that attack before it happened, so sensing was not just allowed, it was actively being done.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 28, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Except, that clearly doesn't apply to the bodyguards.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



That was not sensing. They saw the raikage about to smash the table. He was not using ninjutsu for them to sense anything. Plus Torune is not a sensor


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Everyone was proactively suing their sensing abilities though. Fu and Ao were both able to instantly detect that Karin was sensing them. Ei slammed his fist on the table and everyone instantly jumped to surround him.
> 
> The meeting of the 5 Kages was a pretty tense situation. You can't argue that people had their guard lowered in that scenario. Not when the kingpin of your entire village could possibly be in danger from 1-4 ninja of equivalent caliber. If it was just a meeting between friends for some tea and crumpets you might have a point, but everybody in that room was clearly prepared for signs of trouble.


No they weren't, utilizing techniques were forbidden. On-top of that C gives no indication that he was sensing until after Zetsu appeared and shit started to go down. Yes when A made an overt aggressive action everyone got on their guard, but Danzo's usage of Koto was not overt. Hell for that matter Danzo could have casted Koto while everyone was distracted by A or before Team Kumo even arrived. 

If everyone was proactively on sensing the entire time as you say AO would have had his Byakugan activated and would have sensed the Genjutsu instantly. Like wise C would have sensed Danzo gathering Chakra or at least the presence of two chakra types in Danzo (shisui's and Danzo's) nether of those things happened. 

To mention Fu is silly because he's not going to say anything about Danzo's actions, for obvious reasons.

You seem to be implying that it would be foolish for the Guards to not be sensing given the situation, but actually there was little reason to believe that anyone was in danger during that meeting. For example if Itachi were to cast Tsukuyomi in that scenario on Mifune, sure he might KO Mifune, but than he'd have everyone else in the meeting gunning for him and he'd have been obliterated from the face of the planet. Koto used by Danzo with his MS hidden was thee only Jutsu that was somewhat practical in that situation because it's effects aren extremely difficult to recognize and people would not expect such an advanced Dojutsu technique coming from Danzo. However even in that case Danzo was quickly figured out and would have been screwed if not for the mayhem that happened afterwards. 

Which is why the Kages would feel safe enough in that situation to agree to the terms of not utilizing Jutsu during the meeting, because they knew it would be a foolish endeavor


Beyond that I don't even know why this is being debated, we've been directly shown in the manga cannon that a sensor can detect when an Uchiha is gathering chakra in their eye to use a Dojutsu technique, so we know that sensor would be made aware of this as long as they were proactively sensing. So really we'd be arguing against Manga Cannon to try and now assert this is not the case.


----------



## Jad (Sep 29, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Man, there is just so much evidence that suggests Ei is not a fast puncher.

*1.* The example Baroxio put up
*2.* Madara blocking Ei's punch [Rinnegan]
*3.* Suigetsu intercepting Ei's punch before it hits Sasuke. As well as Darui's swing keeping up. [1][2]
*4.* Bee from a distance intercepting Ei's punch from a distance [_too lazy to find this one_]
*5.* Juugo putting up a guard from a punch by Ei [3]

Seems like most of 'everyone' of comparable skill can react to his punches. That's coupled with the fact that this guy has two modes of attacking: Linear Attacks (Lariat/Shoulder Stab/Running man punches) or grappling (Liger Bomb).


----------



## Van Konzen (Sep 29, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Itachi's inferior tsukuyomi



oh fuq..  
scan please where there are > tsukuyomi versions than that of itachi's..


Itachi butchered the most powerful clan while Tobirama died in
the hands of a bunch of fodders..


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 29, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> oh fuq..
> scan please where there are > tsukuyomi versions than that of itachi's..
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi butchered the Senju clan? Show me the scan

Madara mugen tsukuyomi is superior to Itachi's. 

If you really want to talk about fodder, I will happily remind you that Itachi was fodderized by Tayuya's genjutsu


----------



## Garcher (Sep 29, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Itachi butchered the Senju clan? Show me the scan



Your senju clan died out in a few decades, only Tsunade is left and she is an old hag who doesn't stands a chance against Itachi. 
Your superstrong Senju clan probably died completly in the wars. Just Hashirama was the boss.


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## Dominus (Sep 29, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Itachi butchered the most powerful clan while Tobirama died in
> the hands of a bunch of fodders..



Itachi most likely killed them in their sleep and he did it with Obito's help... 
Why is the Kinkaku Force a bunch of fodders and the Uchiha clan isn't?


----------



## Garcher (Sep 29, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> What's that supposed to mean? Are you making a racist comment about black people?



Do you want to tell me Tobirama has a chance against Itachi? Quit talking lies


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## Senjuclan (Sep 29, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> Do you want to tell me Tobirama has a chance against Itachi? Quit talking lies



It was a rather simple question, did you or did you not make a derogatory statement about black people?

As for the subject of the thread, I think I have already defeated everyone of your claims and reduced you to asinine one-liners


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2013)

^Yeah I don't know how mods are allowing this guy to get away with his racist and homophobic comments (see his sig)


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2013)

GKY said:


> Because Kimmimaro was a chakra beast. If Naruto was sick, he'd still have ridiculous amounts of chakra, just not as much as he's currently showing.


But you can't say that because chakra is a different entity then their body. There is possibly types of sickness that drain your chakra but I would call that Ninja aids and it would kill you within the year no doubt if it continuously drains minuet amounts of chakra. So obviously Itachi didn't have a  chakra draining illness or MS would've considerably decreased his chakra reserves which were being constantly drained. Technically if he had this kind of illness, he should not have walked away from the Leaf village when he ran like a bitch.





> I tend to disagree with your overall assessment. Firstly, you have to remember Kishi is currently retconning everyone's chakra capacity (see war arc Kakashi). Personally, I believe Kishi sees "healthy Itachi" the same as edo Itachi without regen. This is simply because edo's have shown chakra limitations (like Tobirama only being capable of making 1 clone and Trollkage being weakened when using Jokiboy).


 Characters even Edos start out with their chakra pool maxed out to their limits. Say Tobirama's is 200points while Itachi is 100(but as an edo). A kage bunshin cost 125points, so in essence Tobirama can only create 1, while edo Itachi even with unlimited chakra can not due to the limitations on his chakra capacity. So Tobirama is at 75 points while Itachi is at 100(edo) Itachi uses Amaterasu for a cost of 35 which cuts Itachi's points to 65.

While Tobirama as alive stays at 75 and regenerates very slowly, Itachi as an edo will regenerate his chakra, at most as fast as the edo's body regenerates, which is fairly quickly. But Itachi can't surpass his on chakra limitations without regenerating. If Susanoo cost 75points/minute, he can't use it for 2 minutes unless he drops it and recast it after his chakra pool regenerates. That is why Muu while split can't use jinton cause he splits his chakra pool. This unlimited chakra thing was never proven and don't have any idea of where it came from, its enhanced chakra regeneration is all.



> Also, Itachi as an edo doesn't seem to be very affected by the MS jutsu, where as it kept making sick Itachi fall down to his knees and cough blood.


 And Edo's that get their arm ripped off or blown off, or any other kind of high intense pain type injuries don't fall on the ground and start screaming in pain for minutes on end either.





> In part 1 (when he was healthier) Itachi was capable of using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu without much affect.


Kisame's worried about Itachi using it just 1 time. 3

And then during Itachi vs Kakashi and Kisame vs Asuma Kurenai, Itachi can't kill a defenseless Itachi after using 1 tsukuyomi and sends Kisame to attack. Why didn't Itachi do it? Cause he was unable to . Not to mention Asuma and Kurenai had their eyes...closed  
3

Can't find the scan but wasn't Itachi being carried by Kisame?





> Honestly, the whole healthy Itachi vs. sick Itachi argument comes down to whether or not you like the character. Some people see them as the same entity, some see them as vastly different. Just depends on your preferred interpretation.


Not it just seems like this certain fandom refuses to believe reality and try to misinterpret things to support their character in feats he doesn't possess.


Tobirama takes this easily. He's been fighting against Uchihas his whole life and fighting alongside them. He is probably the most knowledgeable on the Uchihas amongst non-Uchihas


@Itachi the best- Have fun being banned. Some of the things you said were just plain bullshit and even though I wasn't included in your criteria i will say i was quite offended. And yes in just this thread I reported you three times and 5 mins later you were banned.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 30, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Itachi butchered the Senju clan? Show me the scan
> 
> Madara mugen tsukuyomi is superior to Itachi's.
> 
> If you really want to talk about fodder, I will happily remind you that Itachi was fodderized by Tayuya's genjutsu



Where was the Senju clan at the time Itachi slaughtered the Uchiha?.. 
Show me the scan.. 

oh fuq, mugen tsukuyomi of Madara...  
madara mugen tsukuyomi.. 
tsukuyomi mugen madara... 
sorry I cant argue with your logic of below sea level..

Tayuya who?


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## Senjuclan (Sep 30, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Where was the Senju clan at the time Itachi slaughtered the Uchiha?..
> Show me the scan..
> 
> oh fuq, mugen tsukuyomi of Madara...
> ...



1. So you do concede that he killed a weak ass clan in their sleep with the help of Tobi. Bet Tobi did 90% of the work
2. I accept your concession that Itachi's tsukuyomi is weak sauce compared to Madara's mugen tsukuyomi
3. Tayuya whose genjutsu fodderized Itachi


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## Van Konzen (Sep 30, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Itachi most likely killed them in their sleep and he did it with Obito's help...
> Why is the Kinkaku Force a bunch of fodders and the Uchiha clan isn't?



Never thought that Uchiha likes to sleep at the streets..


and we know Fugako wasnt asleep either..

Uchiha made a name sincee ages while your Kinkaku force
was what? known for killing your favorite character? 



Senjuclan said:


> 1. So you do concede that he killed a weak ass clan in their sleep with the help of Tobi. Bet Tobi did 90% of the work
> 2. I accept your concession that Itachi's tsukuyomi is weak sauce compared to Madara's mugen tsukuyomi
> 3. Tayuya whose genjutsu fodderized Itachi



Where is your scan of the Senju Clan being the most powerful
at the time Itachi slaughtered his own? 

and scan where Tobi slaughtered more Uchiha than Itachi.. 

Insisting on Madara's Mugen Tsukuyomi.. you have horrible
manga interpretation, and worse jutsu comparison..

Tayuya who again?  you certainly care for fodders..


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## IchLiebe (Sep 30, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Where was the Senju clan at the time Itachi slaughtered the Uchiha?..
> Show me the scan..


-snip- The senju wasn't a bunch of inbreeding hillbillies. They integrated into society where the Uchiha was exclusive. What Senjus are alive now; Naruto, Tsunade, Karin and the only Uchiha is...Sasuke and Obito(technically he is a senju/uchiha). Senju>Uchiha any day anytime. You people come on here to profess your love to the Uchiha and can't even admit inferiority to the opposed clan. Kishi has made it clear from the Elder Son vs the Younger Son(of the Sage of Six Paths) to Madara vs Hashirama to Naruto(who is only part Senju(diluted bloodline) vs Sasuke(purely inbred just like Itachi). The thing I like about the Senju is you really don't know that they have senju DNA until its revealed whereas someone with Uchiha DNA is noticeable.





> oh fuq, mugen tsukuyomi of Madara...
> madara mugen tsukuyomi..
> tsukuyomi mugen madara...
> sorry I cant argue with your logic of below sea level..


-snip-You don't even realize the reason why Madara holds the title of "Master of the Uchihas". I like Madara but his character is failing atm and if he doesn't do something about Obito I will quit reading this manga(just saying). He was able to produce with a generic sharingan genjutsu(base sharingan justu) that Itachi is able to produce with Tsukuyomi. 

And here is why:

When you are able to create a reality such as Madara did against Obito and as Itachi did against Kakashi it is reasonable to believe that Madara can alter time in base sharingan genjutsu because he is able to manipulate the environment and surroundings of the opponet and feasibly should be able to alter time given the parameters.



> Tayuya who?


The same Tayuya that put Itachi in a genutsu that he can only break with a MS genjutsu and not able to do on his own. 

And more like Kabuto who wiped his ass with Itachi.

Come back with Manga feats-snip-.  He is easily countered by high tier opponets with decent speed feats and sensing feats.

Tobirama is to much for Itachi. Just like Kabuto sensing+speed is a counter to everything Itachi has to throw at an opponent.

I agree that Itachi is a powerful character(you will never see me argue for(actually very rarely)), his skillset is pretty good but due to powerscaling he is irrelevant in fights with high-god tier shinobi that are half ass decent. I like Itachi but I don't care for his character and I believe that he is a very skilled and powerful shinobi but there is some characters that he can't beat due to matchups. And I hate that Kishi showed him with such a weak base skill set, that is why I tend to favor the opponent in a lot of scenarios.

I hate when people come into here throwing blatant bullshit around when if I was arguing for Itachi he would be a powerful character. People don't realize how much they hurt Itachi by coming in the battledome throwing around one of the following but not limited to: The kind solos(ridiculous reply), Tsukuyomi GG(Correct but usually knowledge disavows plus the Uchiha Clan is famous and easily recognizable), Totsuka GG, Amaterasu GG.

If Itachi is facing any kind of speedster then he is fucked. And his chakra limits him to much.

Tobirama without restrictions and Ramen guy as his Edo stomps Itachi.


And BTW Itachi had Obito who has the perfect MS jutsu for sneak attacks. Plus where is your evidence that those people even awakened the Sharingan much less had a 3 tomoe sharingan.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> *Fuck you.* The senju wasn't a bunch of inbreeding hillbillies. They integrated into society where the Uchiha was exclusive. What Senjus are alive now; Naruto, Tsunade, Karin and the only Uchiha is...Sasuke and Obito(technically he is a senju/uchiha). Senju>Uchiha any day anytime.



you mad bro?  

you dont even get what I was referring to..
the time of the slaughter.. where was your Senju Clan?..

you are now referring to clansmen who were nowhere to be found by that time..
Tsunade? bet she still had nervous breakdown..
Karin and Nardo were like brats.. they dont even know who is who
on the names you mentioned by that time.. 
*inbreeding hillbillies you say?*
how about Hashi making it out with Mito
where you say Uzumaki = Senju as same clan.. :rofl

blame Kishi for the feats he had given to Itachi..


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## Senjuclan (Sep 30, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Where is your scan of the Senju Clan being the most powerful
> at the time Itachi slaughtered his own?
> 
> and scan where Tobi slaughtered more Uchiha than Itachi..
> ...



1. Itachi killed fodder. Ninjas that Shisui could control on his own. But Itachi needed help unlike Shisui
2. Scan of Itachi having killed the same amount or more Uchiha? Weak people kill fewer enemies and Itachi was weak sauce compared to Tobi
3. Don't worry your concession on mugen tsukuyomi is duly noted  ... So far you have not even once offered a reason as to why Itachi's inferior tsukuyomi is not comparable
5. Well, since Tayuya fodderized Itachi, one has to say they are on the same level


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## Dominus (Sep 30, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Never thought that Uchiha likes to sleep at the streets..
> 
> 
> and we know Fugako wasnt asleep either..



I didn't say all of them, I said they were most likely and most of them probably were... Obito helped him and he didn't have to fight Shisui.



> Uchiha made a name sincee ages while your Kinkaku force
> was what? known for killing your favorite character?



The Uchiha clan existed before Akatsuki, does that mean that they're stronger than them?
You still haven't proved that the Uchiha clan is stronger than the Kinkaku Force nor that Itachi would win against them and instead of discussing irrelevant things, explain how Itachi wins against Tobirama...


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## Rob (Sep 30, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> -snip- how does hirashin helps Tobirama against Itachi? He has no marks on kunai's or so. gojō kibakufuda kills himself and Itachi blocks it easy with Yata Mirror.
> 
> Itachi can just oneshot him with sharingan genjutsu, amaterasu, tsuku and Totsuka + his overall fighting skills are way above Tobirama.
> 
> ...




How are you green?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 30, 2013)

If we're talking about clans, the current status of clan strength is:
Uchiha(Current)>Senju>Uchiha(Founding Era).

And the Uchiha clan should be a whole lot stronger than the Kinkaku force.


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## Coppur (Sep 30, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> If we're talking about clans, the current status of clan strength is:
> Uchiha(Current)>Senju>Uchiha(Founding Era).
> 
> And the Uchiha clan should be a whole lot stronger than the Kinkaku force.



One thing to note about the Uchiha clan is the fact that Itachi didn't simply solo the entire clan, he assassinated them while they were sleeping, while he probably woke Mikito and Fugaku to say goodbye, to be honest Itachi is good, but he isn't *that* good.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 30, 2013)

Coppur said:


> One thing to note about the Uchiha clan is the fact that Itachi didn't simply solo the entire clan, he assassinated them while they were sleeping, while he probably woke Mikito and Fugaku to say goodbye, to be honest Itachi is good, but he isn't *that* good.



I agree, my point was the Uchiha clan would more than likely whoop the Kinkaku Squad's ass.


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## Van Konzen (Oct 1, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> I didn't say all of them, I said they were most likely and most of them probably were... Obito helped him and he didn't have to fight Shisui.
> 
> The Uchiha clan existed before Akatsuki, does that mean that they're stronger than them?
> You still haven't proved that the Uchiha clan is stronger than the Kinkaku Force nor that Itachi would win against them and instead of discussing irrelevant things, explain how Itachi wins against Tobirama...



you are worth my reply than that senju dawg...
ok where do I start..

unless Kishi illustrates Tobi had the most of the killing,
Itachi would still have its name branded as the one who slaughtered his clan..

Pulling Akatsuki here is irrelevant.. 
What I mentioned was Uchiha and Kinkkau force where
Itachi and Tobirama encountered a mass of shinobi..

Uchiha clan not stronger than Kinkaku force?
we cant scale it by panels but Uchiha members are well respected
in battle through out NV and I guess only Tobirama had acknowledge the
existence of Kinkaku force if im not mistaken..

Itachi is not slow if we are to deal with taijutsu..
with his sharingan he could keep up with Tobirama
unless he let Tobirama tag him..

I dont have an idea how Tobirama would deal with Itachi's
susanoo, it could both do long range attack and a sword that seals
and with a good defense..

your turn mate..


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## Dominus (Oct 1, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> unless Kishi illustrates Tobi had the most of the killing,
> Itachi would still have its name branded as the one who slaughtered his clan..
> 
> Pulling Akatsuki here is irrelevant..
> ...



It doesn't matter who killed more of them, my point was that Itachi didn't do it alone and that he didn't have to fight Shisui... and like I've said it is also very possible that Itachi killed a lot of them while they were sleeping and he probably killed them one by one... unlike Tobirama who was surrounded. Itachi wasn't alone and he also attacked them by surprise.



> Uchiha clan not stronger than Kinkaku force?
> we cant scale it by panels but Uchiha members are well respected
> in battle through out NV and I guess only Tobirama had acknowledge the
> existence of Kinkaku force if im not mistaken..



That fodder shinobi, Darui, Kakuzu, Tsunade, Raikage, Kabuto, Gai... all heard of Kinkaku and Ginkaku. They were the most infamous shinobi in the history of Kumogakure, the Raikage believed that they are related to the Rikudō.

Kabuto didn't reincarnate any member that Itachi killed, not even Fugaku who was the leader of the clan, so I don't think they were that great...



> Itachi is not slow if we are to deal with taijutsu..
> with his sharingan he could keep up with Tobirama
> unless he let Tobirama tag him..
> 
> ...



If Itachi decides to use taijutsu against Tobirama, he'll most likely get marked and after that he has no chances of winning... he needs Susanoo to defend against Tobirama. He can avoid all of Itachi's attacks with sensing and Hiraishin, he can also counter some of them with his water techniques. He can maybe teleport his Susanoo away, because we've seen that the user can be separated from his Susanoo. If that doesn't work Tobirama can also beat him with Gojō Kibaku Fuda when Itachi isn't using the final version of his Susanoo or by outlasting him (he'll get tired quickly from using Susanoo).


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## Trojan (Oct 1, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> It doesn't matter who killed more of them, my point was that Itachi didn't do it alone and that he didn't have to fight Shisui... and like I've said it is also very possible that Itachi killed a lot of them while they were sleeping and he probably killed them one by one... unlike Tobirama who was surrounded. Itachi wasn't alone and he also attacked them by surprise.



about the help part. It seems to me that Tobirama even with help (the 6 of his students who one of them was going to be a Hokage, so they are kage level) that was not enough for him to
defeat Kin & Gin!! :amazed
and then we found out that Darui was able to fight both of them at once! (they survived from his attacks because they are edos)

I don't know how you (Tobirama's fans) look at it, but I honestly think that takes too much from
Tobirama, sometimes I want to say he's going to win against some other characters, then I remember his battle with Kin & Gin and thus change my mind. 

As for this topic, as I said, I think Tobirama is the stronger one here. However, I won't be surprised if he lost as well.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 1, 2013)

Elia said:


> about the help part. It seems to me that Tobirama even with help (the 6 of his students who one of them was going to be a Hokage, so they are kage level) that was not enough for him to
> defeat Kin & Gin!! :amazed
> and then we found out that Darui was able to fight both of them at once! (they survived from his attacks because they are edos)
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that Kinkaku and Ginkaku had 18 (?) other ninja with them.

Presumably with them being all at a respectable level.


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## Dominus (Oct 1, 2013)

Elia said:


> about the help part. It seems to me that Tobirama even with help (the 6 of his students who one of them was going to be a Hokage, so they are kage level) that was not enough for him to
> defeat Kin & Gin!! :amazed



They were still outnumbered, surrounded and that just proves that members of the Kinkaku Force aren't fodder...



> and then we found out that Darui was able to fight both of them at once! (they survived from his attacks because they are edos)



Darui was lucky because his most-said word changed when he started apologizing to everyone and did you miss the part where Darui has the whole division as his backup? They didn't fight the entire Kinkaku Force and they weren't in their six-tailed form from the beginning and only Kinkaku transformed.



> I don't know how you (Tobirama's fans) look at it, but I honestly think that takes too much from
> Tobirama, sometimes I want to say he's going to win against some other characters, then I remember his battle with Kin & Gin and thus change my mind.
> 
> As for this topic, as I said, I think Tobirama is the stronger one here. However, I won't be surprised if he lost as well.



We don't even know the details of their battle nor how strong the other members of Tobirama's team and the Kinkaku Force were and Kishi most likely didn't even plan for Tobirama to have Hiraishin.


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## Trojan (Oct 1, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Keep in mind that Kinkaku and Ginkaku had 18 (?) other ninja with them.
> 
> Presumably with them being all at a respectable level.



but we know how the fodders level are, you may say they are Elite and all of that, but so what? 
Obito at the age of 14 killed a lot of Jonnin and ANBU by himself without them having the ability
to even touch him!

Minato killed a lot of them in seconds! 
The 3rd Raikage fought 10,000 of them, and even in the 4td war he killed a lot of them.  
the 2nd Mizukage killed a lot and he was not even trying! Mu stated that no matter the number 
against him they won't win!

at least Tobirama should be in that level where those fodders are nothing compare to him! 
and you also have to keep in mind that Tobirama was using his ET, so he has more than his 6
students to help him! 

Kin & Gin were not even that strong, if someone like Darui can defeat them (in base at least) then why not a Hokage level with 6 of his students? 

it does not make sense if you asked me.


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## Trojan (Oct 1, 2013)

> =Dark Prince of Awesome;48588822]They were still outnumbered, surrounded and that just proves that members of the Kinkaku Force aren't fodder...


a small number like 20 shouldn't be that's big of a deal though!


> Darui was lucky because his most-said word changed when he started apologizing to everyone and did you miss the part where Darui has the whole division as his backup? They didn't fight the entire Kinkaku Force and they weren't in their six-tailed form from the beginning and only Kinkaku transformed.


- But we know that Tobirama was not sealed by them either. Otherwise, Oro would not have
the ability to summon him back in part 1.

- Yes, he had indeed, but that was against 6tails Kinkaku, who survived from Darui's attack 
because he's an edo.

- So? How do you know that the transformed against Tobirama? Because according to Kakuzu,
Kinkaku only does that when someone take Gin out. and according to Gin, they both (Kin & Gin)
defeated Tobirama, and he was not taken out by Tobirama. Therefore, there was no reason
for Kin to transform against Tobirama! 


> We don't even know the details of their battle nor how strong the other members of Tobirama's team and the Kinkaku Force were and Kishi most likely didn't even plan for Tobirama to have Hiraishin



True.


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## Rasengan with gatorade (Oct 1, 2013)

Itachi can deflect Tobirama attacks, use his MS Amaterasu,Tsukuyomi also Tobirama can use FTG and dodge those, such a weird match up.


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## Dominus (Oct 1, 2013)

^I wonder who will get tired first Tobirama from using Hiraishin or Itachi from using Susanoo...



Elia said:


> a small number like 20 shouldn't be that's big of a deal though!



If they were very powerful, then it should be.



> - But we know that Tobirama was not sealed by them either. Otherwise, Oro would not have the ability to summon him back in part 1.



Who said that they sealed him? I just said that Darui was lucky...



> - Yes, he had indeed, but that was against 6tails Kinkaku, who survived from Darui's attack
> because he's an edo.
> 
> - So? How do you know that the transformed against Tobirama? Because according to Kakuzu,
> ...



That's why I said that we don't know the details of the fight, you should use the feats he has and not judge his strength by that, because we don't know how skilled his opponents were. Kishi changed Tobirama's skill set a lot.


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## The World (Oct 1, 2013)

Why are people bringing up Kinkaku and Gin? 

We have no idea who was leading the Kinkaku Forces which may or may not be affiliated with the brothers


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## Dominus (Oct 1, 2013)

The World said:


> Why are people bringing up Kinkaku and Gin?
> 
> We have no idea who was leading the Kinkaku Forces which may or may not be affiliated with the brothers



They thought that ... so it might be true that they weren't the ones who killed him and I don't think that it was stated anywhere that they killed him, just that they defeated him.


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## Van Konzen (Oct 2, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> That fodder shinobi, Darui, Kakuzu, Tsunade, Raikage, Kabuto, Gai... all heard of Kinkaku and Ginkaku. They were the most infamous shinobi in the history of Kumogakure, the Raikage believed that they are related to the Rikudō.
> 
> Kabuto didn't reincarnate any member that Itachi killed, not even Fugaku who was the leader of the clan, so I don't think they were that great...





Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> They thought that ... so it might be true that they weren't the ones who killed him and I don't think that it was stated anywhere that they killed him, just that they defeated him.



so which is which? 
you seem to contradict your earlier statement when you brought up
the bros names (being known by other shinobis) where I was referring the "team" that tracked team Tobirma itself.. 
As far as I can remember, there were no  other shinobi
who mentioned the "team" not the "brothers"..

I say its premature to say the dumb brothers were really part of that
"force" just because one of them are named after that team..
that's why even I myself, is waiting for a Tobirama flashback to clear this thing..

and the Kabuto summoning of the bros could just be a 
plot device by Kishi for the Juubi to be complete without the need of the real Kurama..

and there weren't really confirmed member of that team
summoned by Kabuto either if you are to say no Uchiha of that slaughter was
ETd..

I find it dumbfounded that we are to say Itachi had the advantage of slaughtering
the clan with that ease because they were asleep... 
This Uchiha clan was not any other normal family clan, 
they are shinobis, police or guard shinobis specifically with the most gifted
dojutsu.. couldnt we just say Itachi was beyond their level all combined
he could slaughter them day or night?.. 
the Tobi helping Itachi just came later, he already had plan exterminating
his clan with the order from Danzo..


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## Dominus (Oct 2, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> so which is which?
> you seem to contradict your earlier statement when you brought up
> the bros names (being known by other shinobis) where I was referring the "team" that tracked team Tobirma itself..
> As far as I can remember, there were no  other shinobi
> ...



That's why I've said a couple of times that we don't know who and how powerful the members of the Kinkaku Force were... Tobirama did fight Kinkaku and Ginkaku when they ambushed him and the Second Raikage, but we don't know if they fought him again when Tobirama fought the Kinkaku Force. It would be great to get a flashback from Tobirama to clear this up... and we're kinda off-topic.
I don't know why you brought this up when it has nothing to do with the thread.


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## Katou (Oct 2, 2013)

Tobirama Owns. . . Blitzing Itachi like a Boss


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