# Tobirama vs War-arc SM Naruto



## Hachibi (Sep 13, 2014)

Location: Kaguya's Main Dimension
Distance:40 meters
Knowledge: Reputation
Mindset: IC
Restriction: TnJ

Discuss


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

Naruto wins.

IMO, his feats and portrayal put him above the likes of Tobirama. Naruto showed the ability to fight against characters like Pain, 3rd Raikage, Kurama, and stronger than MS Sasuke...etc. On the other hand, Tobirama is placed below Kin/Gin's level which they really can't do much against SM Narudo...

Even in term of jutsus, Naruto is also far superior to Tobirama in term of clones, and he can summon the frogs which they can use SM and a lot of different strong jutsus. I don't see how Tobirama's weak water jutsus can do anything. 

Tobirama has the explosion tags jutsus of course which is really strong, but he needs ET to use it, and the ET
require sacrifices, and I doubt some random people will show up here, and even if they did, I don't see why
would Naruto give him the chance to use the ET. 

now when we comes to FTG, which is the most deadly thing Tobirama has, he still does not have much Kunais
and even IF he was able to use it just perfectly, his Kunais are not going to do anything at all to Naruto's body
as we saw that he was not effected at all after his fall on the sharp rocks, so Tobirama's attacks with the Kunai
are going to be very useless.

And if Naruto used Kurama's chakra (4tails or 6tails...etc) then really Tobirama will get fodderstomped. He couldn't
deal with Kin/Gin who can't even use the TBB, and according to Kakuzu, probably did not even use that mode. 

So yeah, SM Naruto is not only portrayed to be above Tobirama, but even his feats are superior...


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## JuicyG (Sep 13, 2014)

I agree with Hussain.

Though with Tobirama's battle exp I would say it would very close. SM abilities to sense Tobirama coming with his watered down Minato version of FTG gets evaded. Clone feints with rasenshiruken ends this


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## Legendary Itachi (Sep 13, 2014)

Tobirama is one of the very few guys who won't be TnJ'ed, especially not by Naruto.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I agree with Hussain.
> 
> Though with Tobirama's battle exp I would say it would very close. SM abilities to sense Tobirama coming with his watered down Minato version of FTG gets evaded. Clone feints with rasenshiruken ends this



Tobirama's experience does not matter. Kakuzu is far more experienced that Tobirama, and yet he got schooled. 


Legendary Itachi said:


> Tobirama is one of the very few guys who won't be TnJ'ed, especially not by Naruto.



Not really, especially that Tobirama actually agrees with Naruto's way, and he see him as his bro. He
also stated fighting along side Narudo feels like fighting with Hashirama...etc. So yeah, he will get TnJ.


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## Cognitios (Sep 13, 2014)

Minato > SM Naruto
Tobirama is basically a slightly slower minato, to the point where the difference is almost minimal, with a greater range of attacks and more versatility and slightly better DC.
Rasenshuriken is easily dodged, and once Naruto is out of sage mode then tobirama takes advantage of that and kills him.


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## Hachibi (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> IMO, his feats and portrayal put him above the likes of Tobirama. Naruto showed the ability to fight against characters like Pain, 3rd Raikage, Kurama, and stronger than MS Sasuke...etc. On the other hand, Tobirama is
> placed below Kin/Gin's level which they really can't do much against SM Narudo...



He could only win against Pain due to the Kyuubi,Raikagenaut with intel and Kurama with help 
And by feat Tobirama is above Kin/Gin's level, is just that their V2 cloak can't be penetrated by him.



> Even in term of jutsus, Naruto is also far superior to Tobirama in term of clones, and he can summon the frogs which they can use SM and a lot of different strong jutsus. I don't see how Tobirama's weak water jutsus can do
> anything.



-Clone whom would be only relevant though trickery, which has low chance to work due to Tobi being a sensor
-Frog get cutted down by the water jutsu that cut the God Tree's root (I don't remember the name).



> Tobirama has the explosion tags jutsus of course which is really strong, but he needs ET to use it, and the ET
> require sacrifices, and I doubt some random people will show up here, and even if they did, I don't see why
> would Naruto give him the chance to use the ET.



Simple Explosive Tag alone would slow down SM Naruto, and he still has his time limit.



> now when we comes to FTG, which is the most deadly thing Tobirama has, he still does not have much Kunais
> and even IF he was able to use it just perfectly, his Kunais are not going to do anything at all to Naruto's body
> as we say that he was not effected at all after his fall on the sharp rocks, so Tobirama's attacks with the Kunai
> are going to be very useless.



...
Piercing Attack=/=Cutting Attack. It's GG for Naruto if he get slashed in the neck (just like Obito was by KCM Minato)



> And if Naruto used Kurama's chakra (4tails or 6tails...etc) then really Tobirama will get fodderstomped. He couldn't
> deal with Kin/Gin who can't even use the TBB, and according to Kakuzu, probably did not even use that mode.



He can only use Kurama's chakra when he's angry pre-KCM.



> So yeah, SM Naruto is not only portrayed to be above Tobirama, but even his feats are superior...



Where's SM Naruto's portayal that put him *above* a Hokage, Danzo and Hiruzen's teacher and Hashirama's brother?


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51716664]He could only win against Pain due to the Kyuubi,Raikagenaut with intel and Kurama with help  And by feat Tobirama is above Kin/Gin's level, is just that their V2 cloak can't be penetrated by him.


Kurama is part of his power. 
- No, Tobirama is below them as they fodderstomped him twice. 
even with the help of the 2nd Raikage, and his students he was still outclassed...


> -Clone whom would be only relevant though trickery, which has low chance to work due to Tobi being a sensor
> -Frog get cutted down by the water jutsu that cut the God Tree's root (I don't remember the name).


- What does being a sensor have to do with anything? 
Kaguya and zetsu got trolled several times.

- lol, the frogs water jutsus are far superior to Tobirama's attacks..



> Simple Explosive Tag alone would slow down SM Naruto, and he still has his time limit.


easier said than done. 

...





> Piercing Attack=/=Cutting Attack. It's GG for Naruto if he get slashed in the neck (just like Obito was by KCM Minato)


lol, no. We saw Naruto's durability and its power clearly and he's insanely powerful/durable . To think his Kunai
is going to do anything to Narudo is foolish honestly. 




> He can only use Kurama's chakra when he's angry pre-KCM.


he can get angry whenever he wants. 


> Where's SM Naruto's portayal that put him *above* a Hokage, Danzo and Hiruzen's teacher and Hashirama's brother?


What does being their teacher or Hashirama's brother have to do with anything? :rofl
and yeah, again look to his feats against people who are stronger than Tobirama...
on the other hand where is Tobirama's portrayal that he is above SM Narudo?


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## Hachibi (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Kurama is part of his power.
> - No, Tobirama is below them as they fodderstomped him twice.
> even with the help of the 2nd Raikage, and his student he was still outclassed...



-It wasn't when he couldn't control it
-Proof that it was a stomp



> - What does being a sensor have to do with anything?
> Kaguya and zetsu got trolled several times.
> 
> - lol, the frogs water jutsus are far superior to Tobirama's attacks..



-The PIS in that fight was terrible and you can't give SM Naruto RSM Naruto feat, it's reverse power-scaling

-Just like Tobirama isn't a master of suiton according to the databook 



> easier said than done.



Never said it would be easy




> ...
> lol, no. We saw Naruto's durability and its power clearly and he's insanely powerful/durable . To think his Kunai
> is going to do anything to Narudo is foolish honestly.



So Naruto can survive a slash in the neck?



> he can get angry whenever he wants.



So he didn't finish puberty? 
inb4 you didn't get the joke 



> What does being their teacher or Hashirama's brother have to do with anything? :rofl
> and yeah, again look to his feats against people who are stronger than Tobirama...
> on the other hand where is Tobirama's portrayal that he is above SM Narudo?



Just like Hagoromo doesn't have the hype to create the Bijuus 
Tobirama manage to taijutsu with SM Rinnegan Madara for a time (the one who nearly blitzed SM Naruto).
What portayal does SM Naruto has which is superior to a hokage?
inb4saviorofthisworld


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

Tobirama uses Itachi blitzing speed and stomps under 1mili seconds. Bamflash GG


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51716822]-It wasn't when he couldn't control it
> -Proof that it was a stomp



- Yes it was. 
- he got killed, and they stated that they "fucking floored him"


takL said:


> Ginkaku: its sucks...that we,* who fucking floored the 2nd hokage *are under his justu...dont u think, Kinkaku?
> 
> Tsunade: I know that they wielded the 5 ninja tools called Rikudoh sages treasures
> and that they cornered  the 2nd hokage into a moribund condition, but...
> 9bs chakra... I haven't heard that they had it...





> -The PIS in that fight was terrible and you can't give SM Naruto RSM Naruto feat, it's reverse power-scaling
> 
> -Just like Tobirama isn't a master of suiton according to the databook


- Who cares if it's terrible to you? He has that feats. 
and what does RSM have to do with anything? His clones are the same, and his brain is the same.
Kaguya and Zetsu are both sensors, yet they couldn't tell the different, that has nothing to do with power...

- and we saw his mastery, and I don't even remember the DB stating anything like that.
so a scan or statement from the DB about that would be appreciated.  



> So Naruto can survive a slash in the neck?


Yes, he can. 





> Just like Hagoromo doesn't have the hype to create the Bijuus
> Tobirama manage to taijutsu with SM Rinnegan Madara for a time (the one who nearly blitzed SM Naruto).


taijutsu with Madara? I thought he got overwhilmed and fodderized rather easily.  



> What portayal does SM Naruto has which is superior to a hokage?
> inb4saviorofthisworld



Naruto in chapter 1 defeated Hiruzen with his sexy jutsu.


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## Dominus (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain, why don't you post this translation?

?they are the brothers who in the past, on the occasion of our concluding an alliance with konoha, staged a coup and defeated the 2nd raikage and the 2nd Hokage by *underhand* means."


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## Hachibi (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Yes it was.
> - he got killed, and they stated that they "fucking floored him"



-No it isn't
-Arrogant people are arrogant



> - Who cares if it's terrible to you? He has that feats.
> and what does RSM have to do with anything? His clones are the same, and his brain is the same.
> Kaguya and Zetsu are both sensors, yet they couldn't tell the different, that has nothing to do with power...
> 
> ...



-Reverse Power-scaling as I said, and his clone are so powerful that there is no different between them and the original except for the Gudo-dama, which he can pretty much give to a clone.

-Then Naruto Wiki must have bullshitted me ck



> Yes, he can.







> taijutsu with Madara? I thought he got overwhilmed and fodderized rather easily.



Still putted much more of a fight than SM Naruto, who got send to the ground while Madara didn't have SM yet.



> Naruto in chapter 1 defeated Hiruzen with his sexy jutsu.



Gag Feat aren't allowed


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Hussain, why don't you post this translation?
> 
> ?they are the brothers who in the past, on the occasion of our concluding an alliance with konoha, staged a coup and defeated the 2nd raikage and the 2nd Hokage by *underhand* means."



Because I was looking in the translation thread, and what you posted is not from that thread, and therefore, I have no idea of it because I'm not God?  

and again, it does not really matter, they defeated him again in the War. 


> =Hachibi;51717026]-No it isn't
> -Arrogant people are arrogant



- Well, It does not matter whether you consider it part of his power or not really. The thing is he can
use it...

- Again, it's up to you, you asked for a proof, I gave it to you.  


> -Reverse Power-scaling as I said, and his clone are so powerful that there is no different between them and the original except for the Gudo-dama, which he can pretty much give to a clone.
> 
> -Then Naruto Wiki must have bullshitted me ck



- to the million time, power has nothing to do with sensing. Actually it's stated that the clones' chakra
are nothing, when Obito needed chakra to teleport to Kaguya's space...

- Yup, that BS from there, and a lot of people mentioned that to them, but for some reason
they did not change that. 

So, you're saying that Tobirama's Kunai is was more deadly than falling from over 100m on
sharp rocks? Oh well, there is not helping you... 


> Still putted much more of a fight than SM Naruto, who got send to the ground while Madara didn't have SM yet.


Naruto blocked that attack, and being sent to the ground is still better than being shut down completely. The thing is, Tobirama did nothing either way, and Madara was able to sense and dodge him. If anything that against Tobirama as Narudo can sense him as well...




> Gag Feat aren't allowed


you asked for it. 
but anyway, he was stronger than Tsunade as well.


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## Veracity (Sep 13, 2014)

Tobirama wins. any FRS varient gets warped into a Kunai or Tobirama warps the shit into Naruto's forehead. A Kage Bunshi forces CQC, eats a frog kumite but initially tags Naruto. From there on it's FTG slashes to the jugular bypassing his durabilty eventually.


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## Dominus (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Because I was looking in the translation thread, and what you posted is not from that thread, and therefore, I have no idea of it because I'm not God?



I replied to you with the same link multiple times. 



> and again, it does not really matter, they defeated him again in the War.



With 18 other people and we don't know how strong they were, just that Tobirama considered them highly skilled.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> [=Likes boss;51717134]Tobirama wins. any FRS varient gets warped into a Kunai or Tobirama warps the shit into Naruto's forehead.


How is he going to warp it exactly?  



> A Kage Bunshi forces CQC, eats a frog kumite but initially tags Naruto.


Narutp superior usage of the clones will overwhelm him. 


> From there on it's FTG slashes to the jugular bypassing his durabilty eventually.[/]



What proofs do you have that his attack will bypass Naruto's durability? 
Not to mention Naruto can sense him and fodderize him with his control over than natural power...


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I replied to you with the same link multiple times.
> 
> With 18 other people and we don't know how strong they were, just that Tobirama considered them highly skilled.



- I honestly don't remember such thing. I can barely remember what happened yesterday. lol
- they are fodders like every other fodders in the story.  
and not to mention Tobirama was backed up by his team as well...


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## Hachibi (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Well, It does not matter whether you consider it part of his power or not really. The thing is he can
> use it...
> 
> - Again, it's up to you, you asked for a proof, I gave it to you.



-Not freely, which is why I said he can't use it.
-Because they attacked both him and the Raikage by surprise the first time, and the second time Tobi was alone against both of them + 20 jonins.



> - to the million time, power has nothing to do with sensing. Actually it's stated that the clones' chakra
> are nothing, when Obito needed chakra to teleport to Kaguya's space...



-Kaguya >>>>> Naruto in chakra reserve so bad exemple.



> - Yup, that BS from there, and a lot of people mentioned that to them, but for some reason
> they did not change that.







> So, you're saying that Tobirama's Kunai is was more deadly than falling from over 100m on
> sharp rocks? Oh well, there is not helping you...



The rock never hitted his neck. At all. And pretty sure no one in the Narutoverse can take a slashing attack to the neck except Juubi Jins.



> Naruto blocked that attack, and being sent to the ground is still better than being shut down completely. The thing is, Tobirama did nothing either way, and Madara was able to sense and dodge him. If anything that against Tobirama as Narudo can sense him as well...



For a SM-less Madara? lolno. And Tobirama lasted a few panel while Naruto didn't.



> you asked for it.
> but anyway, he was stronger than Tsunade as well.



Implying being stronger than Tsunade is a big deal when she's the second weakest Hokage


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## Dominus (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - I honestly don't remember such thing. I can barely remember what happened yesterday. lol



Taking in to consideration the quality of your posts I can't say I'm surprised. And this isn't the only time, I've proved you wrong many times and you agree with me, but you say the same thing again.



> - they are fodders like every other fodders in the story.
> and not to mention Tobirama was backed up by his team as well...



That just proves that they were strong because they would have beaten Tobirama with a Kage-level shinobi (Hiruzen) and his other students. Just because we don't know a lot about them doesn't mean they weren't strong, we just found about the Third Mizukage and first Kage generation, that doesn't mean they were weak. Tobirama wouldn't have called them highly skilled if they weren't special.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51717195]-Not freely, which is why I said he can't use it.
> -Because they attacked both him and the Raikage by surprise the first time, and the second time Tobi was alone against both of them + 20 jonins.


- Every time he needed it, he used it. It does not matter either way as he does not really need it.
- they were 18 fodders, everyone in the manga (other than Tobirama) showed to easily deal with the
fodders...




> -Kaguya >>>>> Naruto in chakra reserve so bad exemple.


 

Just forget it, you simply don't get it.



> The rock never hitted his neck. At all. And pretty sure no one in the Narutoverse can take a slashing attack to the neck except Juubi Jins.


So, SM will make his entire body mush stronger "except" his neck? 
can you show the manga scan when it was stated that the "neck" does not get any of that love?




> For a SM-less Madara? lolno. And Tobirama lasted a few panel while Naruto didn't.


Tobirama lost, while Naruto did not, and he continued fighting him after that.



> Implying being stronger than Tsunade is a big deal when she's the second weakest Hokage


you asked about his portrayed, and I gave you that. 
he was stronger than Tsunade, and he defeated Hiruzen.
His clone in SM defeated the 3rd Raikage who's also stronger than Tobirama. 

he was stronger than MS Sasuke, who also dealt with Danzo (another Kage)
and that was before his War Arc feats and all of that...etc

anyway, what can Tobirama do against Naruto?


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> That just proves that they were strong because they would have beaten Tobirama with a Kage-level shinobi (Hiruzen) and his other students. Just because we don't know a lot about them doesn't mean they weren't strong, we just found about the Third Mizukage and first Kage generation, that doesn't mean they were weak. Tobirama wouldn't have called them highly skilled if they weren't special.



The fodders are always shown in the same light no matter from which generation and what their rank is. All other characters were able to massacre them with ease, except for Tobirama alone. The only threat was kin/gin (who are not even that powerful since even Darui dealt with them)


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## Hachibi (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Every time he needed it, he used it. It does not matter either way as he does not really need it.
> - they were 18 fodders, everyone in the manga (other than Tobirama) showed to easily deal with the
> fodders...



-Correction: Everytime Kurama wanted, he let Naruto have his chakra (which was everytime he was in a near-death situation bar the Kabuto fight).
-And? There's different type of fodder: the actual fodder and the strong fodder. One are cannon fodder, other simply doesn't have name. And since Tobirama valued them highly skilled...



> Just forget it, you simply don't get it.



Oh well.



> So, SM will make his entire body mush stronger "except" his neck?
> can you show the manga scan when it was stated that the "neck" does not get any of that love?



Never said his neck doesn't get the boost , I said it isn't durable enough to tank a slashing attack.



> Tobirama lost, while Naruto did not, and he continued fighting him after that.



It isn't comparable at all. Naruto got Deus Ex  Machina while Tobirama didn't get that pleasure.



> you asked about his portrayed, and I gave you that.
> he was stronger than Tsunade, and he defeated Hiruzen.
> His clone in SM defeated the 3rd Raikage who's also stronger than Tobirama.



Tobirama could do that with Intel too.



> he was stronger than MS Sasuke, who also dealt with Danzo (another Kage)



A MS Sasuke that didn't get Complete Susano.




> anyway, what can Tobirama do against Naruto?



Showing him Hiraishin


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## Dominus (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> The fodders are always shown in the same light no matter from which generation and what their rank is. All other characters were able to massacre them with ease, except for Tobirama alone. The only threat was kin/gin (who are not even that powerful since even Darui dealt with them)





So you're telling me this guy is as strong as a Kage who wasn't named? Weaklings aren't called highly skilled by anyone, let alone Tobirama.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51717305]-Correction: Everytime Kurama wanted, he let Naruto have his chakra (which was everytime he was in a near-death situation bar the Kabuto fight).
> -And? There's different type of fodder: the actual fodder and the strong fodder. One are cannon fodder, other simply doesn't have name. And since Tobirama valued them highly skilled...



- It does not matter, Minato kept the seal open a little so it can save his child. 
- lol, no there is not. 




> Never said his neck doesn't get the boost , I said it isn't durable enough to tank a slashing attack.


and you based that on what exactly? 



> It isn't comparable at all. Naruto got Deus Ex  Machina while Tobirama didn't get that pleasure.


yeah, but Tobirama also attacked from behind his back when Madara was not even expecting that, while it was the other way around with Naruto.



> Tobirama could do that with Intel too.


lol, no he can't. 



> A MS Sasuke that didn't get Complete Susano.


And? Naruto did not have all the feats from his fight against Kurama or anything after than either
so, what's your point? 




> Showing him Hiraishin


He can't run all he wants, it's useless if he can't do anything.




Authoritah said:


> So you're telling me this guy is as strong as a Kage who wasn't named? Weaklings aren't called highly skilled by anyone, let alone Tobirama.



who talked about any Kage? Those fodders with Kin/gin were not Kages. 

- Zetsu called those ANBU/Jonin to be skilled, yet Obito who had only awakened his MS destroyed
them without a scratch. 

Mu, Mizukage, Raikage, Minato, Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, Sasuke, Sasori....etc
were killing thousands/tens/ hundreds of those by themselves. We saw that from every area those
canon fodders are always the same, I don't see why are those against Tobirama are going to be anything special, only Kin/gin were highlighted...  

if anything it's just damaged Tobirama's pic in front of the other kages...


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 13, 2014)

Both are sensors so the mountainous region that would work really well with clone trickery is pretty moot. SM naruto got the advantage in every stat but speed but FTG tag placement can help avoid everything low-mid diff except FRS, COFRS etc. Tobirama would have a far easier time if he had FTG barrier but he don't.

Also tagging in CQC tobirama is not smart since naruto has enhanced danger sensing and ghost punches could end up getting wrecked trying to set up. Tobirama ain't durable even if he tried to trade a tap for a punch he gets fucked up. Only thing that would slow naruto down in tobirama's arsenal is his water slicer and maybe explosive tags though i question him cleanly getting hits off naruto without getting merked himself.

I am leaning toward naruto because he has more going for him here. Tobirama could only try to outlast and stall but with a competent opponent and lack of defense besides try to avoid gigantic AoE i'm iffy.


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## Dominus (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> He can't run all he wants, it's useless if he can't do anything.
> 
> 
> who talked about any Kage? Those fodders with Kin/gin were not Kages.
> ...



I'm talking about them because you could also say they are fodder because we know nothing about them. We have absolutely no idea how strong the other members were, it's useless to use them as some kind of measurement for Tobirama's power when we don't know how strong they were.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Both are sensors so the mountainous region that would work really well with clone trickery is pretty moot. SM naruto got the advantage in every stat but speed but FTG tag placement can help avoid everything low-mid diff except FRS, COFRS etc. Tobirama would have a far easier time if he had FTG barrier but he don't.
> 
> Also tagging in CQC tobirama is not smart since naruto has enhanced danger sensing and ghost punches could end up getting wrecked trying to set up. Tobirama ain't durable even if he tried to trade a tap for a punch he gets fucked up. Only thing that would slow naruto down in tobirama's arsenal is his water slicer and maybe explosive tags though i question him cleanly getting hits off naruto without getting merked himself.
> 
> I am leaning toward naruto because he has more going for him here. Tobirama could only try to outlast and stall but with a competent opponent and lack of defense besides try to avoid gigantic AoE i'm iffy.



I don't really think his water jutsu would do much here, not only Naruto's own firepower is far greater, and he can dodge that easily, but even his frogs can do those things as well if necessarily. 

and Naruto has greater amount of chakra than Tobirama as well, so outlasting won't give him any favour. 



> I'm talking about them because you could also say they are fodder because we know nothing about them. We have absolutely no idea how strong the other members were, it's useless to discuss and to use them as some kind of measurement for Tobirama's power when we don't know how strong they were.



Not really. We know that they are Kages, so they were the strongest in their villages at that point. In addition, the kages for the villages were not
shown to be in the same situations as those fodders when everyone destroys massive number of them easily. 

as for Tobirama, regardless of those fodders, even Kin/Gin themselves were not all that powerful really, and here is the problem...


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## Hachibi (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - It does not matter, Minato kept the seal open a little so it can save his child.
> - lol, no there is not.



-And it degrade over time and usage of Kurama's chakra
-It's not because they didn't have a name that they are fodder. By that logic Hamura was a fodder before he got named.




> and you based that on what exactly?



Based on the fact that the nect is one of the weakest part of the human body.
And show me a durability feat of Naruto against a slashing attack, I'll wait.



> yeah, but Tobirama also attacked from behind his back when Madara was not even expecting that, while it was the other way around with Naruto.



Madara didn't attack Naruto for behind, and when Naruto tried to attack him while he was dealing with Sasuke he got Katon'd.



> lol, no he can't.







> And? Naruto did not have all the feats from his fight against Kurama or anything after than either
> so, what's your point?



He had the help of B (for dealing with a Bijuudama) and the help of Kushina (to restrict the Kyuubi).



> He can't run all he wants, it's useless if he can't do anything.



He will do much more than you think


----------



## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51717425]
> Based on the fact that the nect is one of the weakest part of the human body.
> And show me a durability feat of Naruto against a slashing attack, I'll wait.


- Is that why A was not scratch from Sasuke's attack on his neck? 
- I already told you about his feats + him destroying Pain's bacl rods. U_U





> Madara didn't attack Naruto for behind, and when Naruto tried to attack him while he was dealing with Sasuke he got Katon'd.



I did not say he attacked from behind. I'm saying that Naruto did not expect Madara to move and attack, and yet he was able to block his attack. And Madara's katon did not do jack. 




> He had the help of B (for dealing with a Bijuudama) and the help of Kushina (to restrict the Kyuubi).


Tobirama had help and he still lost against far weaker opponents. 



> He will do much more than you think



maybe, but will still lose...

anyway, I got drained already... 
don't know when to reply again...


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't really think his water jutsu would do much here


It would not one shot him but it would most likely cut him tobirama might go for a beheading though i don't see that happening. The head/neck is easy to protect through evasion.



> not only Naruto's own firepower is far greater, and he can dodge that easily, but even his frogs can do those things as well if necessarily.


Well yeah this is true but i am mainly talking about if it hit naruto he would be phased.



> and Naruto has greater amount of chakra than Tobirama as well, so outlasting won't give him any favour.


Well sage mode does have a rather "short" time limit here unless the elders are fused with him. I was talking about him without ma or pa since he usually do it without them.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Is that why A was not scratch from Sasuke's attack on his neck?
> - I already told you about his feats + him destroying Pain's bacl rods. U_U




-Sasuke got the protect of his Ribcage Susano and A's attack hitted him on his cheek.
-Piercing Attack, which wasn't what I was talking about, and Pain's rods pierced his body 




> I did not say he attacked from behind. I'm saying that Naruto did not expect Madara to move and attack, and yet he was able to block his attack. And Madara's katon did not do jack.









> Tobirama had help and he still lost against far weaker opponents.



He didn't got any help in the second round (and in the first he got attacked by surprise) and it's implied he killed them all before he died for his wound, cue the bro thinking that Tobirama brought them back.
And his ability got retcon'd since then btw 



> maybe, but will still lose...



Not as easy as you think



> anyway, I got drained already...
> don't know when to reply again...



You lack hatred


----------



## Dominus (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Not really. We know that they are Kages, so they were the strongest in their villages at that point. In addition, the kages for the villages were not
> shown to be in the same situations as those fodders when everyone destroys massive number of them easily.



They would matter in a fight against Tobirama's whole team which includes multiple Kage-level shinobi, so yeah you can't scale them to the 1000 shinobi beginning of Part II base Sasuke defeated without breaking a sweat.



> as for Tobirama, regardless of those fodders, even Kin/Gin themselves were not all that powerful really, and here is the problem...



A lot of Edo Tensei had a poor performance in the war. They were still portrayed as greatest criminals in the history of Kumo and they have Kurama's chakra, Hagoromo's tools, are believed to be related to Hagoromo, one of them can solo a division, etc.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 13, 2014)

@Hachibi Referring to the first part of your post Hussain was talking about when sasuke slashed at raikage's neck with chidori katana and it banged off without doing any damage. Going by the way he worded it/what point he was defending the raikage hitting sasuke example don't fit.


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## Hachibi (Sep 13, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> @Hachibi Referring to the first part of your post Hussain was talking about when sasuke slashed at raikage's neck with chidori katana and it banged off without doing any damage. Going by the way he worded it/what point he was defending the raikage hitting sasuke example don't fit.



Well, it looked like the Raiton Shroud blocked it before it could make contact with his skin


----------



## Veracity (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How is he going to warp it exactly?
> 
> 
> Narutp superior usage of the clones will overwhelm him.
> ...



A clone catches the FRS and warps away ?

What's the max amount of clones Sage Naruto has made ? I assume this isn't Naruto with Kuramas help, so his clones won't be that much.... Tobiramas clones are also superior through FTG usage.

Cause Naruto Sage mode isn't going to tank any slicing attack to the most vulnerable part of his body over and over again. Naruto isn't someone that can tank anything. Kishi was confident that Tobirama could injure sage Madara and Sage Madara > naruto in durabilty.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> They would matter in a fight against Tobirama's whole team which includes multiple Kage-level shinobi, so yeah you can't scale them to the 1000 shinobi beginning of Part II base Sasuke defeated without breaking a sweat.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of Edo Tensei had a poor performance in the war. They were still portrayed as greatest criminals in the history of Kumo and they have Kurama's chakra, Hagoromo's tools, are believed to be related to Hagoromo, one of them can solo a division, etc.



it's not only the beginning of part 2, even in this war the fodders were getting destroyed left and right. 

- Who were shown poorly were giving excuses for that. For example Sasori without his puppets. Hanzo for losing his believe, Nagato can't move and was against 3 of the strongest at the time. 

the 2nd Mizukage was not even serious or willing to fight...etc



Likes boss said:


> A clone catches the FRS and warps away ?
> 
> What's the max amount of clones Sage Naruto has made ? I assume this isn't Naruto with Kuramas help, so his clones won't be that much.... Tobiramas clones are also superior through FTG usage.
> 
> Cause Naruto Sage mode isn't going to tank any slicing attack to the most vulnerable part of his body over and over again. Naruto isn't someone that can tank anything. Kishi was confident that Tobirama could injure sage Madara and Sage Madara > naruto in durabilty.



- how is he going to catch FRS without getting himself torn apart from the wind sphere? 
- He can do enough. 
comrades not enemy's.

- Who said Tobirama will get the chance to do it over and over again to begin with?
Tobirama's body was be able to handle SM Naruto's taijutsu over and over again. He won't be
able to tank 1 attack from Naruto's rassengans either...

- Kishi was confident that Tobirama can? lol
or Tobirama who was confident that he can and got his ass handled to him? 



> Sage Madara > naruto in durabilty



lol what? 
Madara has Hashirama's SM, which did not show any durability feats whatsoever. Actually even Gaara's sand went through his body easily, and so did Sasuke's sword that was not even powered up
by any element at all.  

SM Naruto's durability by feats > SM Madara.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> it's not only the beginning of part 2, even in this war the fodders were getting destroyed left and right.
> 
> - Who were shown poorly were giving excuses for that. For example Sasori without his puppets. Hanzo for losing his believe, Nagato can't move and was against 3 of the strongest at the time.
> 
> ...



He can grab the top of resengan ? All he has to do is tap the sphere once then warp away. 

That wasn't even in the physical world. That was in his mind. I expect for him to consciously bend reality a bit. And base Naruto is able to make hoardes of clones. A full Senju like Tobirama should be able to replicate that.

Once Tobirama tags Naruto once, it's just a Warping to Naruto, attacking, and warping away. Simple as that. Naruto cannot react to Tobirams handspeed.

It's the same reasoning behind you believing that Minato can injure ay with a Kunai. It was pretty much set up in that way. Anyway, the average human can be killed by a well placed hit going through your temple , while you can whale at someone's body for hours and not even kill them. If Tobirama stuck a Kunai through Naruto's temple more then 2 times, Naruto would be dead.

Hashirama is a perfect sage. Sage mode increases everyone's durabilty. Don't play dumb. 

The sand and sword were piercing techniques. The Habachi gets cut up my Obitos Kunai but only gets incapacitated by his own BjuiiDama. Piercing attacks are more powerful in Naruto . It's as simple as that .

Base Madara was able to tank a V1 Ay punch with no damage, while KCM Naruto complained that Ay would have killed him with 3 direct hits. Sage Madara is > to Sage Naruto.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 13, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Hashirama is a perfect sage. Sage mode increases everyone's durabilty. Don't play dumb.



Uh...I'm not so sure this applies to all Sage Modes; Kabuto demonstrated no noticeable upgrade in durability in the entire fight with Sasuke and Itachi.

If anything, getting his horn casually sliced off by *Itachi*, a frankly average ninja in terms of physical strength, lends credence to otherwise. Nevertheless, it's clear that all Sage Modes don't enhance durability by the same factor, hence the above occurrence. Sage Naruto landed *face-first* into a column of spikes with such speed that he shattered the entire structure.

And with a feat that tramples on Kabuto's own, emerged scratchless.




> The sand and sword were piercing techniques. *The Habachi gets cut up my Obitos Kunai* but only gets incapacitated by his own BjuiiDama. Piercing attacks are more powerful in Naruto . It's as simple as that .



When did this ever happen? 



> Base Madara was able to tank a V1 Ay punch with no damage, *while KCM Naruto complained that Ay would have killed him with 3 direct hits*. Sage Madara is > to Sage Naruto.



He never said this, at all. Stop inventing quotes because you're too goddamn lazy to properly research them.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> =Likes boss;51717753]He can grab the top of resengan ? All he has to do is tap the sphere once then warp away.


Not even sure if you're serious anymore...  



> That wasn't even in the physical world. That was in his mind. I expect for him to consciously bend reality a bit. And base Naruto is able to make hoardes of clones. A full Senju like Tobirama should be able to replicate that.


proof that Tobirama can replace that? 



> Once Tobirama tags Naruto once, it's just a Warping to Naruto, attacking, and warping away. Simple as that. Naruto cannot react to Tobirams handspeed.


once Tobirama teleport to him he will get his asses kicked because he does not know about the Natural power that Naruto can control. Which hand speed? If you want to go there, then Tobirama is slower than Hiruzen, and Tobirama can't handle Naruto's speed. 



> It's the same reasoning behind you believing that Minato can injure ay with a Kunai. It was pretty much set up in that way. Anyway, the average human can be killed by a well placed hit going through your temple , while you can whale at someone's body for hours and not even kill them. I*f Tobirama stuck a Kunai through Naruto's temple more then 2 times, Naruto would be dead*.


proof? 




> Hashirama is a perfect sage. Sage mode increases everyone's durabilty. Don't play dumb.


That is the frog SM, not the one used by Hashirama. 
and it's obvious that they differ, and as such you can see Hashirama, Naruto, and Kabuto having different benefits from their SM.  


> The sand and sword were piercing techniques. *The Habachi gets cut up my Obitos Kunai but only *gets incapacitated by his own BjuiiDama. Piercing attacks are more powerful in Naruto . It's as simple as that .


When did that happen? 
(and I honestly find that Ironic that you use this now and when I tell you about that in Hashirama's thread you keep denying it.)
anyway, the rocks that Naruto fell into(?) were sharp and they did not effect him.


> Base Madara was able to tank a V1 Ay punch with no damage, while KCM Naruto complained that Ay would have killed him with 3 direct hits. Sage Madara is > to Sage Naruto.[



lol, Madara was ET he does not feel pain, while Naruto is alive.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 13, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Uh...I'm not so sure this applies to all Sage Modes; Kabuto demonstrated no noticeable upgrade in durability in the entire fight with Sasuke and Itachi.
> 
> If anything, getting his horn casually sliced off by *Itachi*, a frankly average ninja in terms of physical strength, lends credence to otherwise. Nevertheless, it's clear that all Sage Modes don't enhance durability by the same factor, hence the above occurrence. Sage Naruto landed *face-first* into a column of spikes with such speed that he shattered the entire structure.
> 
> ...


 I guess that's true . Doesn't really change much in my debate. As three Kunai hits the the temple would still kill Naruto.

Obitos shiruken*

Why do you have to be an asshole for no reason ? I didn't devise my post to make you happy. Naruto said something along like another hit would end him or some that like that. Still doesn't matter much as when Ay hit Madara, it didn't even scratch him.

@Hussain 

Why would I need to be joking ? It takes one single tap on the FRS and he can warp it away.

Tobirama can warp somewhere, attack , and warp way before Naruto even realizes it. 

Do you seriously think base PTS Naruto has not only more , but ALOT more chakra then Tobirama ?

Handspeed? Here: Kakashi arrives at her and slashes her shoulder off, Naruto is still not in sight
Something Juubito couldn't react to is something Sage Naruto can't react to.

How is Tobirama slower then Hirzuen ? And how would His movement speed have anything to do with warping in, swinging a Kunai and warping out ?

The temple is one of the most vulnerable parts on the body, and piercing attacks do more damage then blunt force attacks.

I'm just gonna agree with you in the Sage part.

It was shiruken: Kakashi arrives at her and slashes her shoulder off, Naruto is still not in sight

What are you talking about regarding previous Hashirama threads ?

The force Tobirama exerts from merely swinging his Kunai would be more then falling onto the rocks. These are superhuman ninja. PTS Naruto can literally toss his body weight hundred of feet casually. Now let's add the fact that Tobirama can flow chakra through his Kunai. He was able to crack apart a building by touching it. That mixed with superhuman strength would mean Tobirama could easily exert a shit ton of force.

That has nothing to do with anything ? The point is Madara's body wasn't even cracked or injured at all. He could have taken 5 of those punches and not been injured.


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## Coco3 (Sep 13, 2014)

Naruto wins without doubt


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Sep 13, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I guess that's true . Doesn't really change much in my debate. As three Kunai hits the the temple would still kill Naruto.



Uh... it pretty much does. *Reread* Sage Naruto's feat with the spikes.

Do you seriously think Tobirama has enough physical strength to throw kunai so hard, it would be adequate to surpass the force required to shatter an entire column of spikes?

Most shinobi throw kunai that wind up *embedded in tree trunks at most*, for God's sake. Tobirama isn't some sort of strength monster to drastically surpass that, let alone to the level that's required to hurt Sage Naruto.



> Obitos shiruken*



Which cut the Eight-Tails' tentacles, which have a history of being weak to piercing attacks, i.e., Sasuke's Chidori Spear.

That doesn't mean piercing attacks will surpass blunt-force or energy-based attacks no matter what the magnitude. If Obito's shuriken had injured the Eight-Tails' main body, you would've had a point, but tough luck, sport.



> *Why do you have to be an asshole for no reason ?* I didn't devise my post to make you happy.



How am I an asshole? 



> *Naruto said something along like another hit would end him or some that like that. *



Again, he didn't say that.

You're free to look up the Viz translation, though.



> Still doesn't matter much as when Ay hit Madara, it didn't even scratch him.



Because he blocked it.

Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto blocked several hits from Ay and he wasn't even hurt.


----------



## joshhookway (Sep 13, 2014)

Tobirama rekts SM Naruto. He's way faster and has way more weapons at his disposal.


----------



## Dominus (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> it's not only the beginning of part 2, even in this war the fodders were getting destroyed left and right.



And nothing suggests that Tobirama's enemies were like that.



> - Who were shown poorly were giving excuses for that. For example Sasori without his puppets. Hanzo for losing his believe, Nagato can't move and was against 3 of the strongest at the time.
> 
> the 2nd Mizukage was not even serious or willing to fight...etc



And Darui was lucky against Kinkaku and Ginkaku and had a whole division as backup. And you ignored the fact that the rest of Kinkaku Force would matter in the fight against Tobirama's entire team even though his team was consisted of Kage-level ninjas so I guess you conceded?


----------



## Csdabest (Sep 13, 2014)

I Give this Match up to Tobirama. We saw how Blind Madara w/o Sage Chakra WTF Blitzed the shit out of SM Naruto. Tobirama was also able to go toe to toe with One-eyed Rinnegan Madara w/ Senjutsu Chakra for abit. Also Tobirama was once the fastest shinobi alive. While Minato was stated at having a faster Shunshin. There were times that Tobirama looked better than Minato not to mention that both of them was going on a wanking spree over eachother's speeds. And We know Naruto does not reach minato level speeds until he Uses Kyuubi Chakra. And I would Say Minato and Tobirama are identical in speed but I'll still give the Nod to Minato. Not to mention....

War Arc SM naruto Has no answers for this.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> And nothing suggests that Tobirama's enemies were like that.
> 
> 
> 
> And Darui was lucky against Kinkaku and Ginkaku and had a whole division as backup. And you ignored the fact that the rest of Kinkaku Force would matter in the fight against Tobirama's entire team even though his team was consisted of Kage-level ninjas so I guess you conceded?



- I don't see why would they be any different, they are from the same village as those other fodders!
- But they were lucky as well because Darui cut them down several times, and they regenerate because they are ET. 

- We don't really know how powerful his team was back then. We only know Hiruzen and Danzo's feats. And Danzo is not all that great without the Sharingans...etc



Csdabest said:


> I Give this Match up to Tobirama. We saw how Blind Madara w/o Sage Chakra WTF Blitzed the shit out of SM Naruto. Tobirama was also able to go toe to toe with One-eyed Rinnegan Madara w/ Senjutsu Chakra for abit. Not to mention.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



spoiler, do you know it?  

Edit: NVM, you just fixed it. lol

- Tobirama did not went toe to toe with Madara, he got fodderized.
- the explosion tags jutsu need an ET, and the ET needs sacrifices to use, how is he going to use
them here? Not to mention it's not hard to get out of its range even old Hiruzen who's far slower than
Narudo did id. He will have to pin Naruto down to use that...


----------



## Dominus (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - I don't see why would they be any different, they are from the same village as those other fodders!
> - But they were lucky as well because Darui cut them down several times, and they regenerate because they are ET.



Except that you have no proof that they were 'fodder'. Just because we don't know their names doesn't mean they were weak just like how the unnamed Kages certainly weren't.



> We don't really know how powerful his team was back then. We only know Hiruzen and Danzo's feats. And Danzo is not all that great without the Sharingans...etc



Tobirama and Hiruzen were Kage-level, Danzo was probably close to his rival's level so he was probably Kage material as well. Eveyone in Tobirama's team was certainly strong. So if the Kinkaku Force was stronger than all of them they were very powerful as well. You are being very hypocritical, we don't know exactly how strong the Kinkaku Force was nor exactly how strong Tobirama's students were, but you count his students as help, yet you don't count the rest of Kinkaku's Force as help.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 13, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Uh... it pretty much does. *Reread* Sage Naruto's feat with the spikes.
> 
> Do you seriously think Tobirama has enough physical strength to throw kunai so hard, it would be adequate to surpass the force required to shatter an entire column of spikes?
> 
> ...



Because his entire body weight landed on the spikes ? I know exactly what feat you're talking about. And he's i do believe Tobirama can stab( not throw) a Kunai harder then the force Naruto landed on the spikes with . Because 
1) PTS Naruto can fling his clones hundreds of feet which would take a ridiculous amount of strength, and I don't think PTS Naruto > Tobirama in strength.  Imagine the damage someone capable of tossing their body weight like a baseball would be able to do by swinging a Kunai?
2) Tobirama can destroy a portion of a building by tapping it. He can enchnace the striking power of his Kunai by flowing chakra through it. His physical strength and immense chakra should be able to pierce Naruto's flesh.

 It's not hurting Naruto under conventional means. It's aiming for a vulnerable spot on his body MULITPLE times and killing him. You can get hit by a freaking car and survive, but a rock being tossed at your temple can kill you. Tobirama has the means to kill Sage Naruto. Just think about it.

You realize the tentacles were caught in the explosion of his own Bjuidama and were still Completley intact ? Meaning that even though you claim it's his weak spot, it could still survive a Bjuidama just fine. I'm just going to make the assumption that piercing attacks do more damage in this manga. That seems to be the thing. 

You're an asshole and you know it. Calling me " lazy " just because I didnt spend the time bringing up the exact scan makes you an asshole. Facts are , You have no idea what circumstance I was in. At that moment i didn't have the time to bring up the panel btw. And even regardless of such, Hussain understood what I was saying more then you lol.

Most people can't bring up an exact viz translation. But Naruto complained that his punch was extremely heavy which pushes he notion that he prolly can't take a lot of them, while Madara didn't flinch nor did his body even crack at all after being hit into the ground

[1]
[1]

KCM Naruto blocked a single hit from Ay and complained that he hit extremely hard.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Sep 13, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Because his entire body weight landed on the spikes



Good. So you are capable of understanding basic English. I'll move on.



> 1) PTS Naruto can fling his clones hundreds of feet which would take a ridiculous amount of strength, and I don't think PTS Naruto > Tobirama in strength.  Imagine the damage someone capable of tossing their body weight like a baseball would be able to do by swinging a Kunai?



Launching a human body 'hundreds of feet' doesn't equate to pulverizing the entire column of rock spikes. Holy freakin' God, are you seriously equating the two? 

Take in this way. Naruto shattering that entire building-sized column of spikes, is more impressive than fucking pre-Strength-of-A-Hundred Sakura cracking a good portion of the ground with a single punch.

Unless you can prove otherwise, I'm going to assume Tobirama can't replicate what Sakura can do.



> 2) *Tobirama can destroy a portion of a building by tapping it.* He can enchnace the striking power of his Kunai by flowing chakra through it. His physical strength and immense chakra should be able to pierce Naruto's flesh.



That has more to do with his immensely powerful chakra and his application of it due to strong chakra control.

Tobirama can hurt Naruto with chakra-enhanced kunai, sure. But with a kunai stab on its lonesome, which is what you've been purporting this entire time?

Fuck no.




> It's not hurting Naruto under conventional means. It's aiming for a vulnerable spot on his body MULITPLE times and killing him. You can get hit by a freaking car and survive, but a rock being tossed at your temple can kill you. Tobirama has the means to kill Sage Naruto. Just think about it.



I never said Tobirama doesn't have the means to kill Sage Naruto, you strawmanning dipshit, I said simply using kunai 'at the temple' or whatever the fuck won't do him in.

Stop misinterpreting my arguments. You'll go a lot farther than just a joke, as you are, around the Battledome, by doing so.



> You realize the tentacles were caught in the explosion of his own Bjuidama and *were still Completley intact ?* Meaning that even though you claim it's his weak spot, it could still survive a Bjuidama just fine. I'm just going to make the assumption that piercing attacks do more damage in this manga. That seems to be the thing.



How the fuck can you call this completely intact?

Are you freakin' serious?



> You're an asshole and you know it. Calling me " lazy " just because I didnt spend the time bringing up the exact scan makes you an asshole. Facts are , You have no idea what circumstance I was in. At that moment i didn't have the time to bring up the panel btw. And even regardless of such, Hussain understood what I was saying more then you lol.



Okay, then crybaby, I'm an 'asshole'. 

If this is what you desperately resort to to attempt to save face, more power to you.



> Most people can't bring up an exact viz translation. But Naruto complained that his punch was extremely heavy which pushes he notion that he prolly can't take a lot of them



Heavy =/= can't take a lot of them directly.

What kind of shit *non-sequitur* is this? What mental gymnastics do you pull to conclude that Naruto can't take more than a couple of hits just based off that description of the punch? Naruto was surprised by its power. That's pretty understandable, he hadn't fought a shinobi with that level of physical power, ever, until that point.

But he never said something along the lines of, _'I'm going to die if I get him multiple times'_, or even 'this is getting dangerous'. He just praised Ay's power. There is no logical connection, at all, between Naruto's quote and your conclusion.

And that, my friend, is why your argument is dogshit.



> while Madara didn't flinch nor did his body even crack at all after being hit into the ground



Madara was hit into Mei's lava, genius.

Can you even keep up with this argument?



> KCM Naruto blocked a single hit from Ay and complained that he hit extremely hard.



And he blocked others, afterwards. He was perfectly fine from them.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Uh...I'm not so sure this applies to all Sage Modes; Kabuto demonstrated no noticeable upgrade in durability in the entire fight with Sasuke and Itachi.
> 
> If anything, getting his horn casually sliced off by *Itachi*, a frankly average ninja in terms of physical strength, lends credence to otherwise. Nevertheless, it's clear that all Sage Modes don't enhance durability by the same factor, hence the above occurrence. Sage Naruto landed *face-first* into a column of spikes with such speed that he shattered the entire structure.
> 
> ...




Sasuke's sword stabbed even JJ Madara. It'd slice through any SM user like hot knife through butter.

Flesh is usually more durable against blunt trauma than sharp weapons. Its been proven over and over again in this manga.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 13, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Good. So you are capable of understanding basic English. I'll move on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why the fuck do you act as if forum debating is some intense battle ? All you do is insult in every single passage you type. There's literally no point there . I don't really care if you like to insult people, I'm not gonna sit here and debate against you if that's all you do though . I'm not a child, your superiority complex is absolutely ridiculous at this point.

You realize that Naruto is not heavy at all? If he was to fall onto spikes that tall and they were to collapse from his 120 pound ass then they must have been weak and fragile spikes .

The force of him falling is inferior to the force of his PTS incarnation lunching itself the several upon several meters . 

Then that means the ground Sakura punches is more durable then the spikes Naruto landed on. If Sage Naruto had feel from that same distance into the ground Sakura punched then he prolly wouldn't have even created a crater.

You fail to realize that I was in fact taking that into chakra enhanced Kunai consideration. I even added it to my debate against Hussain. But you jumped to the conclusion I wasn't so that's on you.

If Tobirama has the means to kill Naruto then what the hell are you arguing over ? That was my argument from the beginning. A Tobirama chakra enchnaced Kunai slash through the temple. Simple as that.

Talking about this : can you call this completely intact?
Body is still intact. He just needed to rest so he reverted to human form.

I'm not even going to bother with the next points. Sage Naruto and base Madara have similar durabilty feats. That is all .


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 13, 2014)

> Originally Posted by *Grimmjowsensei*
> Sasuke's sword stabbed even JJ Madara. It'd slice through any SM user like hot knife through butter.



And yet it *casually* bounced off Ay. Or Raikiri bounced off Version Two Jinchuriki.

The only way those three occurrences would ever make sense is if Sasuke's sword was enhanced by Sasuke's Yin chakra, courtesy of the Sage of Six Paths. Hence, why it could so easily penetrate Madara like that.  



Likes boss said:


> Why the fuck do you act as if forum debating is some intense battle ? All you do is insult in every single passage you type. There's literally no point there . I don't really care if you like to insult people, I'm not gonna sit here and debate against you if that's all you do though . I'm not a child, your superiority complex is absolutely ridiculous at this point.



You're the guy who started the entire ad hominem business by calling me an asshole, and you have the audacity to throw the blame at me as if it's my fault? 

At this point, you really are challenged.



> You realize that Naruto is not heavy at all? If he was to fall onto spikes that tall and they were to collapse from his 120 pound ass then they must have been weak and fragile spikes .



...or Naruto fell from a *high-as-fuck* distance. Given he was pretty much touching the clouds at the height he was at, that's perfectly logical.

And the notion of Naruto being extra-heavy in Sage Mode isn't ludicrous considering Sage Jiraiya was cracking the ground just by landing on it.



> The force of him falling is inferior to the force of his PTS incarnation lunching itself the several upon several meters .



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Just look at this paragon of intelligence. Read this again, if you can: pre-timeskip Naruto throwing a human body several meters isn't equivalent to shattering a building-sized structure. Fuck, that's like just several tons as a feat for pre-timeskip Naruto.

Shattering a column of spikes is way, way, way, beyond that.

Since I'm nice enough to help you out of your mentally deficient hole, let's start again: Obito, after recovering from his apparent death, would have been around pre-timeskip Naruto's strength level, no? He was a Chunin as well, he should have been *above*, actually. Which means he should have been easily able to replicate Naruto's feat of, um, 'throwing somebody hundreds of feet', or whatever.

Okay, now add Spiral Zetsu's strength amplified on top of that. Even then, him punching a building sized boulder didn't destroy it like Sage Naruto did, all it did was *crack* it. So it's inferior to Sage Naruto's fall.

So there's no fucking way pre-timeskip Naruto's throw is superior.



> Then that means the ground Sakura punches is more durable then the spikes Naruto landed on.



Do you even hear yourself?

They're both made of rock. Say it with me slowly.

*They're both made of the same material. Rock.*



> If Sage Naruto had feel from that same distance into the ground Sakura punched then he prolly wouldn't have even created a crater.



Good luck proving that. 



> You fail to realize that I was in fact taking that into chakra enhanced Kunai consideration. I even added it to my debate against Hussain. But you jumped to the conclusion I wasn't so that's on you


.

You didn't mention chakra-enhanced kunai until literally just a few posts ago. At the start of our debate, you were talking about regular kunai, and regular kunai only.

Sorry chump, that bullshit isn't going to fly.

Excuse me if I don't read your debates with Hussain (why would I? ).



> If Tobirama has the means to kill Naruto then what the hell are you arguing over ? *That was my argument from the beginning*. A Tobirama chakra enchnaced Kunai slash through the temple. Simple as that.



No, it wasn't, stop lying. 

You didn't bring up chakra-enhanced kunai in our debate until post #49. Until then, you were speaking entirely of regular kunai.

And because you believe that regular kunai can actually hurt Sage Naruto... 



> Talking about this : Even then, him punching a building sized boulder didn't destroy it like Sage Naruto did, all it did was *crack* it
> Body is still intact. He just needed to rest so he reverted to human form.



Yeah, the body is still intact, but the tentacles aren't.

Seriously, you can make out the tentacles having been torn to shreds in that scan.



> I'm not even going to bother with the next points. Sage Naruto and base Madara have similar durabilty feats. That is all .



What durability feats, does Base Madara have?


----------



## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

Has Tobirama even shown that he can make his Kunais stronger with some element or something?


----------



## Csdabest (Sep 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - I don't see why would they be any different, they are from the same village as those other fodders!
> - But they were lucky as well because Darui cut them down several times, and they regenerate because they are ET.
> 
> - We don't really know how powerful his team was back then. We only know Hiruzen and Danzo's feats. And Danzo is not all that great without the Sharingans...etc
> ...



Hirzen didnt get out of the way. He was incapacitated because Juubito pushed his shit in and hiruzen didnt show back up till like 12 chapters later lol. But Naruto didnt evade from my knowledge he wasnt around that attack. And even then it would be Naruto who was using Kyuubi Chakra. This SM naruto doesnt have that Minato level speed. And like I said. The fact that  Blind Madara blizted Naruto. While Tobirama Lead an offensive attack and dodge Madara abit shows that Tobirama has the advantage in speed against Naruto. Especially since Tobirama is Minato teir in speed. While Naruto is only as fast as Minato with Kyuubi cloak


----------



## Trojan (Sep 13, 2014)

> =Csdabest;51720368]Hirzen didnt get out of the way. He was incapacitated because Juubito pushed his shit in and hiruzen didnt show back up till like 12 chapters later lol.



yes he did. 
[2]
[2]


> But Naruto didnt evade from my knowledge he wasnt around that attack. And even then it would be Naruto who was using Kyuubi Chakra. This SM naruto doesnt have that Minato level speed. And like I said.


As I showed you above, even Hiruzen was able to do it. Also, Tobirama needs someone to make his victim unable to move to use that jutsu. 
and again, it's useless because he needs ET to use this jutsu, and the ET also needs sacrifices. I don't think there will be random people that willing to make him
sacrifice them...  


> The fact that  Blind Madara blizted Naruto. While Tobirama Lead an offensive attack and dodge Madara abit shows that Tobirama has the advantage in speed against Naruto.


Naruto blocked the attack, and Tobirama got destroyed. In addition, even though Tobirama is faster
than Naruto with FTG, but it's irrelevant because he can't do anything to hi,.



> Especially since Tobirama is Minato teir in speed. While Naruto is only as fast as Minato with Kyuubi cloak



Minato is way faster than Tobirama. 
the guy got the battlefield, teleported the strongest attack at the time, putted the Kunais all around
the Juubi, and had a conversation with his child before Tobirama even arrive.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Has Tobirama even shown that he can make his Kunais stronger with some element or something?



It's should be logical that he know how to chakra flow, if jonin like Darui or fodder like Atsui (the guy who got sealed in the gourd in the Edo Gin/Kin fight) can do it, then why not a Kage.

Pretty sure SM Naruto won't take Chakra-enhanced slash to the neck for long


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> And yet it *casually* bounced off Ay.



A's armor probably gives him defense against sharp tools. Plus, he is super durable himself.



> Or Raikiri bounced off Version Two Jinchuriki.


What does it have anything to do with Naruto ? 



> The only way those three occurrences would ever make sense is if Sasuke's sword was enhanced by Sasuke's Yin chakra, courtesy of the Sage of Six Paths. Hence, why it could so easily penetrate Madara like that.



And It'd be bullshit because the sword wasn't enhanced by anything. 
The sword also penetrated SM Madara.

We've seen SM users(Madara & Kabuto) or more durable shinobi(JJ Madara) get penetrated by Sasuke's sword. Naruto has no durability feats with his SM that suggests that his skin is tough enough to stop a blade.



Hussain said:


> Has Tobirama even shown that he can make his Kunais stronger with some element or something?



A regular kunai would do fine, who needs elemental enhancements ?


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> yes he did.
> couldn't land a single hit on Kimi
> couldn't land a single hit on Kimi
> 
> ...



1. This why most everyone on this forum thinks you are a joke. You respond to a statement about this Justu by saying that Hiruzen got out of its range and yet you post this page, which depicts an event before that Justu was used. Plus, you forget to mention the fact that Tobirama gave a warning to Hiruzen to get out even for the small explosion
2. Once one has performed the rituals of edo tensei, he can summon zombies at will. In other words, Tobirama always had zombies to use


----------



## The World (Sep 14, 2014)

Naruto wouldn't even be able to react to Tobirama

especially if he gets marked


----------



## Eliyua23 (Sep 14, 2014)

I think they are close in power , but Tobirama will win with experience and superior intelligence , I don't think Naruto can take down a legendary Hokage with just Sage Mode.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Sep 14, 2014)

Tobirama wins more often than not imo. He can dodge FRS indefinitely and with ease between his speed,hiraishin, and sensing. He gets in close to Naruto and then detonates Gojō Kibaku Fuda.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Tobirama wins more often than not imo. He can dodge FRS indefinitely and with ease between his speed,hiraishin, and sensing. He gets in close to Naruto and then detonates Gojō Kibaku Fuda.



without FTG, Naruto is faster than Tobirama. 

- Who said he can use the Explosion tags without ET?
and if he did it by himself, he will die as well.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 14, 2014)

IMO Tobirama can win more time than not. He is smarter, and with FTG and clones, Tobirama can just outhax is way out of dangerous situations until he can either slay Naruto or feign death long enough to kill the young sage. Naruto still has good odds don't get me wrong, I just feel when it comes to people who have enough hax (tobirama, Minato, Itachi, Nagato) and good enough intelligence/battle experience, that SM Naruto falls short. KCM is the first form I can see him decidedly beating the aforementioned people (except Nagato given some circumstances)


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. This why most everyone on this forum thinks you are a joke. You respond to a statement about this Justu by saying that Hiruzen got out of its range and yet you post this page, which depicts an event before that Justu was used. Plus, you forget to mention the fact that Tobirama gave a warning to Hiruzen to get out even for the small explosion
> 2. Once one has performed the rituals of edo tensei, he can summon zombies at will. In other words, Tobirama always had zombies to use



1- Save us from your drama no one needs it. If you don't want to debate then STFU & GTFO
I did not ask you to quote me, understood? 

2- -snip-
yeah, that page (1) is when Tobirama started the process to his jutsu, and you can see his arm in his chest to pull the tags out which is what happened in the first scan you posted (2). And since pulling the explosion tags is a MUST for the jutsu to be used, then that time he needs to
use it can be used to get out from there. What so hard to understand? 

as for the warning, and? Tobirama also needed his brother to help him to catch obito
2
so without that, it won't be so hard for his foe to move. In addition to that.
1- If tobirama did that by himself, he will obviously die, even if he succeed.
2- if he try to do it with ET, then we know for a fact that his ET version is shittier than Oro's in part 1.
someone from Naruto's level won't have a problem with dealing with weakened fodders. 



> 2. Once one has performed the rituals of edo tensei, he can summon zombies at will. In other words, Tobirama always had zombies to use



Must be why Oro needed 2 Zetsus to summon the Tobirama and Hashirama even though he did it before.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think they are close in power , but Tobirama will win with experience and superior intelligence , I don't think Naruto can take down a legendary Hokage with just Sage Mode.



Experience did not help Kakuzu. And in term of knowldge, Naruto was able to figure out Obito's weakness before Tobirama could. As for talking down a Hokage, well, Tobirama lost to far weaker opponents that SM Naruto, so I don't see why wouldn't he go down against Naruto.

And Naruto also dealt with stronger opponents that Tobirama (3rd Raikage & Pain for example)


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Experience did not help Kakuzu. And in term of knowldge, Naruto was able to figure out Obito's weakness before Tobirama could. As for talking down a Hokage, well, Tobirama lost to far weaker opponents that SM Naruto, so I don't see why wouldn't he go down against Naruto.
> 
> And Naruto also dealt with stronger opponents that Tobirama (3rd Raikage & Pain for example)



Kakuzu literally fought like 8 people that day and naruto was literally just training a technique that could take down someone like kakuzu in one hit. They just subbed Naruto in, gave him support, and Naruto managed to trick him. Don't act like it was a regular 1 v 1.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kakuzu literally fought like 8 people that day and naruto was literally just training a technique that could take down someone like kakuzu in one hit. They just subbed Naruto in, gave him support, and Naruto managed to trick him. Don't act like it was a regular 1 v 1.



- True. Though I'm talking about Naruto's trick. If Tobirama did not encounter the same trick before, he did not, his experience won't help against something new he did not experienced before. 


- Ok, let forget about Naruto. How did the experience help Kakuzu against Choji? 
Not to mention Kakuzu was really lucky that it did not work the first time...

how did it help Kaguya against Naruto's trick even though she's hundreds of years older than Tobirama? 

did it help Gaara's father against his son? 
how did experince helped Danzo against Sasuke?

experince is given way more credits that it deserves in this manga...


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - True. Though I'm talking about Naruto's trick. If Tobirama did not encounter the same trick before, he did not, his experience won't help against something new he did not experienced before.



Naruto had help and Kakuzu had PIS when that happened.



> - Ok, let forget about Naruto. How did the experience help Kakuzu against Choji?
> Not to mention Kakuzu was really lucky that it did not work the first time...



What are you talking about?



> how did it help Kaguya against Naruto's trick even though she's hundreds of years older than Tobirama?



Stupid exemple is stupid. Kaguya doesn't have battle experience since she didn't had a true fight before except with her sons.



> did it help Gaara's father against his son?
> how did experince helped Danzo against Sasuke?



They were way weaker than them and Danzo only put a fight though Izanagi


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Sep 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A's armor probably gives him defense against sharp tools. Plus, he is super durable himself.
> 
> 
> What does it have anything to do with Naruto ?



Please, try to keep up with this argument.

I'm bringing up examples where Sasuke's sword or techniques with *stronger* piercing power have failed to make a scratch against the likes of Ay's _Lightning Shrou_d and Version Two Jinchuriki - the likes of which, are obviously much, *much*, *much* less durable than say, the freakin' Ten-Tails Jinchuriki himself.

So the _only_ way that Sasuke's sword piercing Madara even makes sense to begin with is if *a)* the blade itself was enhanced by special Yin chakra granted by the Sage of Six Paths, or b) when Sasuke switched with his blade using the Rinnegan, the sword actually ended up materializing right where Madara was - in this case, right inside his body.

Sasuke's sword alone being able to pierce a Ten-Tails Jinchuriki makes zero sense in the context of this manga.

But you already knew that because I'm assuming you to have read it.



> And It'd be bullshit because the *sword wasn't enhanced by anything. *
> The sword also penetrated SM Madara.



Then what's your explanation of it bouncing off Ay, or a stronger piercing technique in the Lightning Blade doing jack shit to Version Two Jinchuriki - both of which, are far cries from top-tier fighters like Jinchuriki Madara?

You're offering zero resolution to this obvious contradiction. Your explanation in itself, which was 'hurr durr piercing attacks work better' is worthless, just like your argument.



> We've seen SM users(Madara & Kabuto) or more durable shinobi(JJ Madara) get penetrated by Sasuke's sword. Naruto has no durability feats with his SM that suggests that his skin is tough enough to stop a blade.



Ten-Tails Jinchuriki Madara being penetrated makes no sense, read above.

Furthermore, Sage Kabuto has no durability feats to suggest he was even given an upgrade with his version of Sage Mode, unlike Naruto.

Also, prove to me that Sage Madara is more durable than Sage Naruto.



> A regular kunai would do fine, who needs elemental enhancements ?



Maybe because Sage Naruto fell face-first into a column of spikes and shattered the entire structure, yet was unhurt? 

That's a durability feat against *piercing attacks* in itself.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51725438]Naruto had help and Kakuzu had PIS when that happened.


Just how Naruto had PIS and his FRS vanished when he was about to destroy him. 


> What are you talking about?


Choji defeated Kakuzu, where was his experience then?


> Stupid exemple is stupid. Kaguya doesn't have battle experience since she didn't had a true fight before except with her sons.



let's just ignore that her sons are can shit on Tobirama every morning, and that she ended a freaking war. In addition, that just prove just because Tobirama is older does not make him better than Narudo who faced every kind of enemies. Including those who has much more experience than Tobirama, and those who are far stronger than him as well.  



> They were way weaker than them and Danzo only put a fight though Izanagi


So, his experience did not help him? 
even though he has twice the amount of experience Tobirama has?


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Just how Naruto had PIS and his FRS vanished when he was about to destroy him.



Naruto couldn't control the Rasenshuriken perfectly at the time.



> Choji defeated Kakuzu, where was his experience then?



You mean a distracted Edo Kakuzu and a Butterfly Choji? Chpji surpassed a heart-less Kakuzu at the time.



> let's just ignore that her sons are can shit on Tobirama every morning, and that she ended a freaking war. In addition, that just prove just because Tobirama is older does not make him better than Narudo who faced every kind of enemies. Including those who has much more experience than Tobirama, and those who are far stronger than him as well.



When did I talked about strenght? I talked about battle experience, which is unrelated to strenght entirely. The war she ended was with *normal* human, who are ant to her. And tell me a enemy that has more experience than Tobirama which Naruto defeated with trickery and not brute force and/or PIS.



> So, his experience did not help him?
> even though he has twice the amount of experience Tobirama has?


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51725780]Naruto couldn't control the Rasenshuriken perfectly at the time.


I don't care. He tricked Kakuzu twice, and the later's experience did not do jack to save him.


> You mean a distracted Edo Kakuzu and a Butterfly Choji? Chpji surpassed a heart-less Kakuzu at the time.


ET does not need a heart. U_U



> . And tell me a enemy that has more experience than Tobirama which Naruto defeated with trickery and not brute force and/or PIS.


Naruto defeated Kakuzu who lived since Hashirama's area. He defeated Hiruzen, and he
defeated Nagato who is much older than him and lived through 2 wars. He dealt with Kurama as well,
and defeated the 3 Raikage. 

Now what does Tobirama have on the other hand?
1- Defeating featless Izuna
2- getting his ass handled to him twice from Kin/gin
3- his Edo self from part 1 was defeated by Hiruzen's clone.

so he has 1 self, and all the others are only defeats. 
Naruto is not only superior to him by portrayed, but by feats as well. The sooner you accept that, the
better. 


>


concession accepted


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't care. He tricked Kakuzu twice, and the later's experience did not do jack to save him.



The first time wasn't even a trick, it almost succeeded only because he couldn't move in time.



> ET does not need a heart. U_U



Kakuzu does.



> and he defeated Nagato who is much older than him



He never defeated Nagato alone.



> He dealt with Kurama as well,
> and defeated the 3 Raikage.



He had help in both situation.



> Now what does Tobirama have on the other hand?
> 1- Defeating featless Izuna
> 2- getting his ass handled to him twice from Kin/gin
> 3- his Edo self from part 1 was defeated by Hiruzen's clone.



-Who was portayed to be MS Madara level.
-He killed them before he died since they said that it must be him that revived them in the war. Also it was pre-retcon Tobirama.
-I don't think you typed that with a straight face.



> so he has 1 self, and all the others are only defeats.
> Naruto is not only superior to him by portrayed, but by feats as well. *The sooner you accept that, the
> better.*



That brainwashing attempt 



> concession accepted




You can't possibly tell me that Danzo, who doesn't fight much, has more experience than someone who fought since his childhood.

That doesn't make sense even for your hatred for Tobirama


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51725941]The first time wasn't even a trick, it almost succeeded only because he couldn't move in time.


and the same thing will happen to Tobirama. 




> He never defeated Nagato alone.


I meant Pain by Nagato. 



> He had help in both situation.


Just like Tobirama having help...etc 
Also, the only thing he had against the Raikage is unclear info and he figured it out by himself. 


> -Who was portayed to be MS Madara level.
> -He killed them before he died since they said that it must be him that revived them in the war. Also it was pre-retcon Tobirama.
> -I don't think you typed that with a straight face.



- Nonsense. Never was he portrayed in such level + MS Madara is feat-less as well.
- lol, nonsense. They said it's his jutsu, which is true. They did not say it's him. 
- I actually did, because whether you like it or not, it happened.  





> You can't possibly tell me that Danzo, who doesn't fight much, has more experience than someone who fought since his childhood.


lol, and how do you know that Tobirama fought non-stop? 
we saw Danzo fighting since young age in the war with Tobirama as well.  



> That doesn't make sense even for your hatred for Tobirama


yeah, I hate every characters that exist in the manga because I don't agree with what his/her fans
say. :rofl


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> and the same thing will happen to Tobirama.



Except that Tobirama is faster than Kakuzu.



> I meant Pain by Nagato.



Pain couldn't kill Naruto because he was a jin and Pain had him beat if it weren't for Hinata.



> Just like Tobirama having help...etc
> Also, the only thing he had against the Raikage is unclear info and he figured it out by himself.



Tobirama never had help when he died. His students were running while he fought Kin/Gin's squad.



> - Nonsense. Never was he portrayed in such level + MS Madara is feat-less as well.



The First Kazekage is featless, does that mean he's weaker than pre-skip Sakura?



> - lol, nonsense. They said it's his jutsu, which is true. They did not say it's him.



Which within their limited knowledge, mean he was alive.



> - I actually did, because whether you like it or not, it happened.



That's what I though, you took the thing out of context so I will help you: Part 1 Edo Tobirama is *way* weaker than his alive version, and he couldn't move because of Shiki Fujin.




> lol, and how do you know that Tobirama fought non-stop?
> we saw Danzo fighting since young age in the war with Tobirama as well.



Because the Senju and the Uchiha weren't totaly in war until Hashi and Tobi's adulthood 
And Danzo didn't fight much after the First War, and I doubt the war lasted longer than the Senju/Uchiha's.



> yeah, I hate every characters that exist in the manga because I don't agree with what his/her fans
> say. :rofl



Or that you rustled that Tobirama had Hiraishin before Minato


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> 1- Save us from your drama no one needs it. If you don't want to debate then STFU & GTFO
> I did not ask you to quote me, understood?
> 
> 2- -snip-
> ...



1. I love to debate but unfortunately you do not debate you filibuster
2. A bunch of words that do not address the issue at hand. You were wrong when you said that Hiruzen escaped the range of the jutsu. That's the one thing I want to debate. The rest is hogwash
3. You don't read the manga much, do you. The hokages were sealed and as Kabuto told Tobi could not summoned. Orochimaru had to free their souls from the shinobi first and then anchor them with edo tensei. This is easy stuff to understand


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51726161]Except that Tobirama is faster than Kakuzu.


True. Just like War-Arc SM Naruto is faster than his base self as well.



> Pain couldn't kill Naruto because he was a jin and Pain had him beat if it weren't for Hinata.


Hinata did not do anything really. In addiiton, Pain admitted that Naruto is really powerful and no one caused him as much terrible before. Keep in mind that War-Arc SM Naruto is stronger than Pain-Arc SM Naruto.



> Tobirama never had help when he died. His students were running while he fought Kin/Gin's squad.


Because he understand that even with their help he's outclassed. 



> The First Kazekage is featless, does that mean he's weaker than pre-skip Sakura?


Don't know what does this have to do with what you were saying. You said MS Izuna is portrayed to
be on the same level as MS Madara, which is not the case. Izuna was even surprised that there is
someone who's stronger than his bro. 



> Which within their limited knowledge, mean he was alive.


No, otherwise they would have said it's him just like Mu thought it's Tobirama who summoned them. However, they did not say it's him, but only HIS jutsu. 


> That's what I though, you took the thing out of context so I will help you: Part 1 Edo Tobirama is *way* weaker than his alive version, and he couldn't move because of Shiki Fujin.


I never said he was at full power though. 
and SF is part of Hiruzen's power, so that's such a ridicules excuse. 



> Because the Senju and the Uchiha weren't totaly in war until Hashi and Tobi's adulthood
> And Danzo didn't fight much after the First War, and I doubt the war lasted longer than the Senju/Uchiha's.


so, he did not fight at the peace zone which means he did not fight non-stop. Good. 





Senjuclan said:


> 1. I love to debate but unfortunately you do not debate you filibuster
> 2. A bunch of words that do not address the issue at hand. You were wrong when you said that Hiruzen escaped the range of the jutsu. That's the one thing I want to debate. The rest is hogwash
> 3. You don't read the manga much, do you. The hokages were sealed and as Kabuto told Tobi could not summoned. Orochimaru had to free their souls from the shinobi first and then anchor them with edo tensei. This is easy stuff to understand



1- I don't care you love to debate or not. If you want to attack my idea or perspective by all means go a head. However, if you want to be an asshole and attack me, when I did not insult you, then just fuck off. 

2- he did escape the range otherwise he would have been blown up.  
3- And the Hokages were unsealed after that, why did he need to sacrifice the zetsus? 

either way, whether he can summon his fodders or not, it won't change much as they will be extremely weakened. Naruto's frogs can deal with them. In addition, if Tobirama summon them, he will not be able to and control them at the same time, but rather he will to just focus on controlling them just like how Oro and Kabuto couldn't do that even though they are Tobirama's superiors.


----------



## Ashi (Sep 14, 2014)

A kunai would've killed Madara so it can Naruto


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> 1- I don't care you love to debate or not. If you want to attack my idea or perspective by all means go a head. However, if you want to be an asshole and attack me, when I did not insult you, then just fuck off.
> 
> 2- he did escape the range otherwise he would have been blown up.
> 3- And the Hokages were unsealed after that, why did he need to sacrifice the zetsus?
> ...



1. I don't attack your ideas, I educate you because you are full of nonsense 
2. He did not escape because the page you linked was BEFORE the Jutsu was used. Do you not understand simple things? 
3. You really are clueless, aren't you? The hokages after being unsealed were available for edo tensei but to anchor them to the world of the living, he needed a sacrifice. However, once available, a zombie can be summoned and unsummoned at will as Kabuto showed
4. I am not interested in arguing you. I only want to educate you so I won't answer the rest of your verbal diarrhea


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## RedChidori (Sep 14, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Minato > SM Naruto
> Tobirama is basically a slightly slower minato, to the point where the difference is almost minimal, with a greater range of attacks and more versatility and slightly better DC.
> Rasenshuriken is easily dodged, and once Naruto is out of sage mode then tobirama takes advantage of that and kills him.



This. I don't think Naruto could be able to react to Hiraishingiri.


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## Hachibi (Sep 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> True. Just like War-Arc SM Naruto is faster than his base self as well.



The gap in speed between Tobirama and Kakuzu is larger than between SM Naruto and Base Naruto.



> Hinata did not do anything really. In addiiton, Pain admitted that Naruto is really powerful and no one caused him as much terrible before. Keep in mind that War-Arc SM Naruto is stronger than Pain-Arc SM Naruto.



Didn't know that awakening KN6 (tho it wasn't what she wished) is nothing when it basically destroyed Pain until he used CT.



> Because he understand that even with their help he's outclassed.



Or that he doesn't want them to die.



> Don't know what does this have to do with what you were saying. You said MS Izuna is portrayed to
> be on the same level as MS Madara, which is not the case. *Izuna was even surprised that there is
> someone who's stronger than his bro. *



Just because someone is featless doesn't mean they are fodder. It's common sense. Also the bolded is irrevelant of what I said.



> No, otherwise they would have said it's him just like Mu thought it's Tobirama who summoned them. However, they did not say it's him, but only HIS jutsu.



Re-read what I said. I said in their limited knowledge it must be him controlling them. Also even if you think of this as legit that Kin/Gin being > Tobirama, that was pre-retcon of his moveset 



> I never said he was at full power though.
> and SF is part of Hiruzen's power, so that's such a ridicules excuse.



it's a suicidal move. and idk if you can move when you get your soul ripped-off.



> so, he did not fight at the peace zone which means he did not fight non-stop. Good.



Still fought more than Danzo, which was my entire point.


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## Trojan (Sep 15, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51729388]The gap in speed between Tobirama and Kakuzu is larger than between SM Naruto and Base Naruto.


With FTG, yes true. Though SM Naruto does not need to be as fast, just like madara dealt with it
even though he is not as fast as Tobirama either. 


> Didn't know that awakening KN6 *(tho it wasn't what she wished)* is nothing when it basically destroyed Pain until he used CT.



Good, so it was Naruto's pure anger. 



> Or that he doesn't want them to die.


which is because they are outclassed. 
even his students stated as such. 





> Just because someone is featless doesn't mean they are fodder. It's common sense. Also the bolded is irrevelant of what I said.


Don't know what does this have to do with the bold, but anyway, we don't know how powerful Izuna
is, and he has no hype, nor feats, so I don't know how can you use him as a proof.  



> Re-read what I said. I said in their limited knowledge it must be him controlling them. Also even if you think of this as legit that Kin/Gin being > Tobirama, that was pre-retcon of his moveset


How do you know about their "limit knowledge"? 
a pre-retcon is only in your mind. Kishi decided to give Tobirama FTG since chapter 500 or so
when Minato mentioned that, which is before Kin/gin got resurrected.  


> it's a suicidal move. and idk if you can move when you get your soul ripped-off.


It is indeed. But still that's Hiruzen power, so I dunno why are you complaining. 




> Still fought more than Danzo, which was my entire point.


how do you know?


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## Hachibi (Sep 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> With FTG, yes true. Though SM Naruto does not need to be as fast, just like madara dealt with it
> even though he is not as fast as Tobirama either.



Madara was never marked, and if he was then the marking disappeared when he became Juubi Jin just like Obito.



> Good, so it was Naruto's pure anger.



Caused by Hinata.NaruHina > NaruSasu comfirmed 



> which is because they are outclassed.
> even his students stated as such.



They were only outclassed in number and both in strenght because his student weren't probably able to defeat multiple junin at the time.



> Don't know what does this have to do with the bold, but anyway, we don't know how powerful Izuna
> is, and he has no hype, nor feats, so I don't know how can you use him as a proof.



Having MS is a great hype (well, before everyone and their grandma got Six Path Chakra).



> How do you know about their "limit knowledge"?
> a pre-retcon is only in your mind. Kishi decided to give Tobirama FTG since chapter 500 or so
> when Minato mentioned that, which is before Kin/gin got resurrected.



Because Tobirama was the only one who can use ET before Oro came . And Minato didn't say it was Hiraishin, he just said that Obito's Space-Time is better than both him and Tobirama(which is true with what Kakabito pulled out of their ass like teleporting between the afterlife and this world.



> It is indeed. But still that's Hiruzen power, so I dunno why are you complaining.



I am not complaining, just correcting you.



> how do you know?



You just have to look at their personnality and you will understand


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## Trojan (Sep 15, 2014)

> [=Hachibi;51729527]Madara was never marked, and if he was then the marking disappeared when he became Juubi Jin just like Obito.


Tobirama teleported to madara before he became the Juubi's host. 




> Caused by Hinata.NaruHina > NaruSasu comfirmed









> Having MS is a great hype (well, before everyone and their grandma got Six Path Chakra).


we still don't know his exact power though, or what he has...


> Because Tobirama was the only one who can use ET before Oro came . And Minato didn't say it was Hiraishin, he just said that Obito's Space-Time is better than both him and Tobirama(which is true with what Kakabito pulled out of their ass like teleporting between the afterlife and this world.


- That does not mean no one can learn it. Anyway, I already posted what they said, so, it's really up to you to talk what the manga states or not.

- I don't care, Kishi decided to give it to him since that time.  




> I am not complaining, just correcting you.


correcting me on what? That Tobirama lost? 
all what you're doing is telling me how he lost, and I don't get how does that change the fact that he lost... 


> You just have to look at their personnality and you will understand


does not proof anything. 
anyway, I am tired of this.


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## Hachibi (Sep 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama teleported to madara before he became the Juubi's host.



Madara had Sage Precog and Sensing.




> we still don't know his exact power though, or what he has...



Stated to be at the same level as his brother. I don't have the time to look for a scan tho.



> - That does not mean no one can learn it. Anyway, I already posted what they said, so, it's really up to you to talk what the manga states or not.



No one except Tobirama could use ET before Oro learned it.



> - I don't care, Kishi decided to give it to him since that time.



And did we know it was Hiraishin?



> correcting me on what? That Tobirama lost?
> all what you're doing is telling me how he lost, and I don't get how does that change the fact that he lost...



I'm correcting you on the fact that you said this like it was easy. As easy it was for Obito to teleport out of the afterlife.



> does not proof anything.



Danzo is a coward and a manipulator. Those type of guys to go out fighting often. Just look at what he did when Pain attacked the village.



> anyway, I am tired of this.



You lack hatred


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## Trojan (Sep 15, 2014)

> [=Hachibi;51729637]Madara had Sage Precog and Sensing.



Good thing Naruto has better sensing than him.



> Stated to be at the same level as his brother. I don't have the time to look for a scan tho.


show it to me then




> No one except Tobirama could use ET before Oro learned it.



to the billion time, they said it's his jutsu, not him. 



> And did we know it was Hiraishin?


and does Kishi care if you knew it's FTG or not? 
you did not, but he did. 


> I'm correcting you on the fact that you said this like it was easy. As easy it was for Obito to teleport out of the afterlife.


I did not talk about difficulty. I talked about his wins and loses, and I did not mention anything beyond that.  



> Danzo is a coward and a manipulator. Those type of guys to go out fighting often. Just look at what he did when Pain attacked the village.


it does not matter. He still lived longer.


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## Hachibi (Sep 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Good thing Naruto has better sensing than him.



Doesn't matter when Madara has better reaction speed.

show it to me then






> to the billion time, they said it's his jutsu, not him.



Fair Enough.



> and does Kishi care if you knew it's FTG or not?
> you did not, but he did.



Just like he knew that Black Zetsu was Kaguya's will? ck



> I did not talk about difficulty. I talked about his wins and loses, and I did not mention anything beyond that.



It wasn't really a lost if they were nerfed.



> it does not matter. He still lived longer.



...
This argument is bad and you should feel bad 
But before you think it's offensive, I will tell you why I said that:
*Age* isn't the main thing about battle experience, it's how many time you fought. That's like saying that a old man you never fought in a war has more battle experience than a General who's younger than him.


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