# Before Hokage and After: A Tsunade Analysis



## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Suu beat me to the Tsunade combat analysis thread, but he did a far better job than I could've. So while he covers that fort, I'll bring up a different aspect that needs some light shed on it.

*Tsunade-hime: Godaime Hokage~*​
​
*Intent*​
It annoys me each time I see someone say Tsunade isn't a true Hokage, or is just a "filler Hokage", or just "keeping the seat warm for Naruto." These all imply she's brought nothing to the table as Hokage, which, quite clearly, isn't true. As such, this is the driving factor in my creating this thread to address said concerns.

*Tsunade before Hokage-ship*​
We recall that Tsunade was noted as a prodigious child genius, just like her teammates Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Whereas Jiraiya was the dullest of the three intellectually, Orochimaru and Tsunade were quite clever for their age, to the point of graduating from the Academy at the fresh young age of six years old. This is not to say Jiraiya didn't graduate at the age of six, mind you. It just showcases what quick learners they were, and their mindset at such a young age.

Not long after, they were sorted into Team Sarutobi, and the Bell Test began. While Jiraiya failed miserably and seemingly didn't have the makings of a ninja,  Their skills were showcased at an early age, and their talent was nurtured under Hiruzen's tutelage.

Team Hiruzen would go on to become the Densetsu no Sannin, or "Three Great Shinobi [of (Konoha) Legend]."   It was a way to perpetuate his own fame, as the dubber of the Sannin, and to have their fame associate with his, due to him having named them. 

It was at this point the Sannin split up, thanks to the introduction of the Amegakure Orphans, Nagato, Konan and Yahiko. Jiraiya stayed behind to tutor them in the ways of the ninja, and Tsunade and Orochimaru returned to the front lines. Whereas Orochimaru was presumably on the front lines defending his home (or perhaps conducting his wicked experiments), Tsunade was rallying for medical institutions that were dedicated to training and producing key medical shinobi skilled in the healing arts and adding them to the standard four-man platoon. Her words were as follows (Viz Translation, with a different hyperlinked for comparison purposes):



While Hiruzen turned down the idea for lack of resources and being in the middle of the war, note that he did implement it during the Third Great Shinobi World War.  Then again, seeing as Jiraiya said Tsunade used to be the first person to care about the safety of the villagers and proposed the system and handed Konoha the victory in the previous war, one could argue that "Tsunade" and "Konoha" are synonymous.

To make a long story short, before she became Hokage, she had a lot going for her (and some negative things too, like Dan and Nawaki's deaths):


She became a legendary ninja and hailed as one of the Sannin
She became a legendary kunoichi even more so, thanks to her countering of Chiyo's complex pathogens and poisons
She devised the idea of a medical institution that revolutioned the four-man platoon, providing a medic nin in each squad to up the mission success rate and squad survival rate significantly, a system that went into effect before the next war
She was attributed with being a major asset of Konoha during the Second War, "handing Konoha the victory" in her teammate Jiraiya's words

*Nomination & Justification*​
 Of course he would have to: the Councillors obviously weren't going to consider someone who didn't want any relation with the village and whose whereabouts where unknown. It was a given they couldn't consider her, because she couldn't take up the mantle of Hokage due to her disappearance. The moment Jiraiya mentioned her, and offered to look for her, , sending Jiraiya on the most important mission at the current time: find a Hokage to bring Konoha back to power and unite the village under their leadership.

Now, Jiraiya mentioned that the "sharp, go-getting Princess" was best suited. That was just the tip of the iceberg, really. When Naruto questioned who she was, Jiraiya listed all her accomplishments. Now, seeing as I don't think  do it justice, I'm going to reference the Viz translation for the volume formats. Anyone with Volume 18 of Naruto can verify what I say is accurate.



Now, as you can see from the nice paragraph Jiraiya provided us, she was chosen as Hokage for several reasons:


She is "sharp, go-getting", according to Jiraiya
She is not only the best choice, but the ONLY possible choice -- keep in mind Kakashi and Danzou were in the village as well, not to mention Jiraiya himself.
To this day (at that present time), no one could stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle or medical ninjutsu. Meaning she was incredibly well-versed in combat and physical fighting, as well as no one being able to touch her in regards to medical ninjutsu skill level and prowess.
As if that weren't enough, she is also the best/only choice from a bloodline standpoint, furthering the legacy of her grandfather and founding father of Konoha, Hashirama Senju.

Before you say "Jiraiya was just saying that because he loved her and he was lazy and didn't want to do it himself!", cool your jets. This is the same Jiraiya who not only threatened to kill Tsunade if she betrayed Konoha (which quite clearly places his love for the village above his love for her individually), but also knowingly went into battle expecting death and not fleeing when it was most opportune to save his life, instead giving it so he could secure information to help Konoha in defeating the threat of Pain and keeping it safe. No doubt, he'd have become Hokage himself and take this 'hardship' on (no problem, if he's willing to die for the village right?) if it meant it was best for the village.

He gave his life for the village, and would've taken Tsunade's as well if it meant she betrayed it. Do you really think he'd recommend her solely for an infatuation, when his intent to kill her already demonstrates he values the village more than her? Would he place the safety and lives of all those villagers based on someone "inadequate" or "useless", just for some sort of love that was never reciprocated? Of course not. Don't waste your time.

Looking at all that, Tsunade certainly had the qualifications. Even Post Time-Skip, , even without the "threat" of him becoming Hokage himself. Kakashi was mentioned by Tsunade, but Jiraiya kept saying Tsunade was still the superior choice, and that Kages shouldn't change often. She has all it takes to become Hokage, but how did she perform _as_ Hokage? Let's take a look.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

*Becoming Hokage*​
Remember the state of being she inherited the village from her predecessor and sensei, Hiruzen Sarutobi. It was in shambles, essentially ruins from Orochimaru's failed invasion. The impact was not unfelt, however. 

All the structural architecture and buildings were ruined. Countless villagers were dead and countless more injured. Konoha's power and influence had drastically decreased. Iruka pitched a ball park figure of Konoha being at "one-third" of its usual power. It's evident Konoha was at its weakest time back then. 

Naturally, as Hokage, she was expected to bring stability and prosperous times back to the Leaf Village. And that's exactly what she did. Healing the countless injured shinobi, sending out shinobi on high-ranking missions to generate income to pour into the economy and rebuild Konoha's structures and make the village the dominant yet peaceful power it once was. 

While that was on her plate, she also had to deal with the defection of Uchiha Sasuke, not long after she came into power. Of course, this was a troublesome matter,  Despite having had no forewarning regarding Orochimaru's previous interactions with Sasuke or attempts, and thinking back to an obscure reference he made to her, she devised the best course of action with what forces they had. 

Keep in mind that she had _just_ inherited the village, and that it was in shambles.  She stressed the dire nature and how quickly the mission needed to be completed. 

Things did not look good. Konoha had just had a joint-war with Sunagakure and Otogakure, and was on bad terms with both. Despite this, to ensure a better success rate for such a dire mission,  The Sand complied, and sent Temari, Kankuro, and the Jinchuuriki himself. This shows a sense of trust the village instilled in Tsunade, as they hated Konoha before her time as Hokage and wouldn't be caught dead sending their only bargaining chip to the aid of their enemies.  Things were already turning for the better.

And what a good choice it was to send in back-up. When her own forces were struggling to defeat the elite ninja of Otogakure, the Sunagakure shinobi effortlessly defeated them in quick succession. From Kankuro penetrating Sakon/Ukon in a brutal fashion, to Temari brutally decimating an entire forest and Tayuya along with it, to Gaara himself defeating Kimimaro after a long fight, the call for back-up proved prudent and a good call on her part. Especially since Konoha gained an ally in the process, strengthening their power and removing one more competitor from wanting to destroy them.

While the mission was ultimately a failure, it boiled down to Naruto's capability and prowess versus Sasuke's. Seeing as Sasuke was a genius and had a better grasp of ninjutsu than Naruto, I can't say I'm surprised at the ending. She would then go on to take Sakura on as an apprentice, keeping in line with the Sannin being the mentor of Team 7 and their parallels.

*Time-Skip Leadership*​
,  The end result, of course, was someone who could not only do  and  ( ), but someone who could wholefully assist Chiyo in her battle. Quite an impressive change, don't you think? She went from near useless to keeping up with Sasori after some time with Chiyo's assistance. And soon enough, she was holding her own against Sasori by herself. This is remarkable, as we know Sakura was reliant on her teammates and couldn't do much by herself. 

 Whereas Chiyo attributes it to the student, I think of it as Sakura having an incredibly good master. Not to cut Sakura's intelligence and accomplishments short, but she's more of a miracle case (in my opinion) that she was able to do something like this after she was taught by one of the Sannin. Pretty damn good, wouldn't you say?

Simultaneously, Tsunade was bringing the village back to its former glory and more. Not only was Konoha restored to its former prestige and power, it gained its influence and no other village dared to attack it. This shows good leadership and charge under Tsunade's belt, to take something ruined and make it good as new. 

While she ran the village smoothly and ensured its safety, Akatsuki was plotting something big. The capture of the Nine Jinchuurikis, and the extraction of them, was going to be a major problem for all the shinobi lands.   As evident in that scan, Tsunade does not forget favours and pays them back, indicating her sense of trust and fairness, and strengthening the relationship between the Leaf and Sand all the more.  , Tsunade had faith in him, faith that was justified. Just as it was justified  and , and pretty much everywhere else. 

Continuing with that tangent in regards to the Invasion of Pain Arc, Tsunade did what was expected of her and what any Hokage would do.  (which was the whole reason he left in the first place, to master Sage Mode and defeat Pain if he came),               ,       ,  , having saved the villagers from annihilation once already. Before she was sidelined, however, , 

She did everything she could short of dying (which very well could've happened hadn't she been saved by Naruto and recovered her chakra) to protect her village and be a good leader.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

*Exterminating Akatsuki*​
Tsunade was the only Hokage to actively do something about the threat of Akatsuki. Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato are excused due to Akatsuki's being a non-threat in their time. Hiruzen, however, is debatable. While Akatsuki did nothing major during his times as Hokage, notably his second time around after Minato's death, Jiraiya still was knowledgeable of them and would have informed his former sensei to do something about them. Either that, or Jiraiya neglected to voice his concerns for Akatsuki, unlike when he did so to Kakashi.

The rest of the Kages have no excuse. Tsunade was the only Kage of her time to actively pursue and exterminate the villainous organization, intent on saving the shinobi world by preventing the outbreak of the Fourth Great Shinobi World War. That was a goal that could've been achieved if the other four of the Five Great Villages had bothered to do anything productive. 

Whereas Tsunade was sending her shinobi out on missions to eliminate the Akatsuki and forming special organizations like the  , i.e. twenty, four-man platoons with the specific instructions of capturing (or if it proved too difficult, killing) Akatsuki members they came across. She was planning capture so as to interrogate them and educate themselves on Akatsuki's true goal and what could be done to counter-act their terrorism. Her village is directly responsible for the deaths of four members of the Akatsuki: Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu and Pain. 40% of Akatsuki was exterminated by Konoha alone.

And her Kage counterparts? We get a glimpse of what they were doing during the Kage Summit.



Mifune, despite being controlled by Danzou, the Acting Hokage at the time due to Tsunade being comatose, raised valid points regardless. Danzou's village was the only one with their Jinchuuriki left (as Bee was presumed captured), and there was no other faults on Konoha's part.  The other Kages also simply let the Akatsuki take their Jinchuuriki, instead of protecting them. This only served to help the terroristic organization grow in power, something Tsunade was averse to.

  Ultimately, none of the Kages there were trustworthy. But there _was_ a trustworthy Kage who _wasn't_ at the meeting and _had_ the most qualifications for being the Supreme Head of the Alliance.

Tsunade's no doubt got tons of experience. She's lived and grew up in an era of war, and participated in one herself, the Second Great Shinobi World War. In it, she rose to fame, not only as a combat ninja alongside Jiraiya and Orochimaru as one of the Sannin, but by herself as well as a legendary medic, the best in the world according to many. Furthermore, she's shown she possess a strategic mindset and keen foresight, organizing the village and sending back-up for the retrieval of Sasuke by allying her village with the Sand. She's proven trustworthy by aiding the Sand when they were in their time of crisis, as opposed to ignoring them like all the other villages, and her pursuit of Akatsuki and determination for them to be wiped out would've painted her as the best suited for the title of Alliance Leader. This, in conjunction with maintaining their Jinchuuriki, would've sealed the deal.

I believe she would've been the best suited for leading the Alliance, due to her excellent capabilities as the Hokage.

*Conclusion*​
Despite all this, I see people claim she has bad leadership, bad decisions, relies too much on faith. Isn't it justified? Hasn't she taken all the necessary actions to ensure things went smoothly, much more so than it would've gone if she took the other Kage's approach and let things be, if not play a hand in her and her village's own destruction?

Has she not taken the prudent steps required for any respectable Hokage? Has she not defended her village to the best of her ability? Was it ever stated that only true Hokages fight? No. It says that Hokages are there to protect the village to the best of their ability. Going back to the Pain point, I've already stated he was far superior to her in terms of strength. This was the man that killed _Jiraiya_. Did you expect her to fight him? Didn't she try so anyways? Twice,  he blew up the village and ?

She used her best abilities to keep casualties to a minimum, provided a means for communication, ordered the evacuation of villagers, protected the people working out Pain's secret, and called back their strongest fighter, the only one who stood a chance against Pain. Wasn't that more prudent and clever than going and wasting chakra fighting six clearly superior opponents, and, if by some miracle she succeeded against one, travel all across Konoha to the next one to do the same five more times? She did what she does best, and what was best for the village. 

Now, I realize that I undertook a huge issue. There will be debate, ther will be arguments, and there will be misconceptions, and hopefully, clarifications. I do not think I will debate much, as I expect my essay to do most of the talking. If you've got concerns or comments, feel free to post them. Surely there will be those who wrinkle their nose in disgust at another pro-Tsunade topic (or another Tsunade topic in general!), but there will be others who are delighted to see the monotony of the Library has been changed, even if by a little. To those who have nothing but nasty, scathing comments, you will most likely not be recognized. It's by this point that I realize there will always be hate, so you can do as you like.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Wonderfully written!

I'm in awe of the amount of evidence you provided, and effort you put into this. It definitely rivals Suu's thread detailing Tsunade in close quarters combat.

(And yes, I did read it all.) 

I must admit I'm not a large fan of Tsunade, but I can certainly recognize greatness when I see it. And she has had her share of accomplishments. She's as stellar a Hokage as any other. It's like I said previously, no one besides her would have been able to effectively defend against Pain's Chou Shinra Tensei.

You put Hashirama, Tobirama, Sarutobi, or Minato in that situation, and they'll not only be left with a crater, but hundreds upon hundreds dead. 

Excellent. Repped and five-starred.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

you say "has she not defended the village to the best of her ability?"

the answer is "not really , but Naruto did"

and Jiraiya was putting efforts into the Akatsuki thing , after all Orochimaru was in Akatsuki and Jiraiya was gathering intel on him , so Jiraiya was doing something about the Akatsuki thing.

while Tsunade been drinking and gambling and disrespected her Sensei while Jiraiya honored his Sensei and tried to get Orochimaru back to strengthen Konoha.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Please provide any evidence of a direct correlation of what you said has _anything_ to do with the thread. Her disrespecting her sensei or not physically fighting Pain does not mean she's not a great Hokage. If you're going to argue some points, at least put some effort into it.

I appreciate your attempts to derail the thread and demean Tsunade, but if you do not cease your efforts, you shall be dealt with swiftly. You have been warned.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> you say "has she not defended the village to the best of her ability?"
> 
> the answer is "not really , but Naruto did"
> 
> ...



I don't know if you've realized or not, but *people have flaws*. Unlike your pretty boy Minato, who is about as one-dimensional and Stu-ish as you can get.

Why are you holding her to such a high standard? People cope with sorrow in different ways. She lost the two people she cared the most about; what would you have done? Frankly, I feel that this is nothing more than a personal vendetta you have with the character.

It's becoming childish, Namikaze Minato. Respect others and their preferences, lest individuals attack you for your own.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Let's keep it civil also, people. I'd rather not get this thread locked after the effort (several hours worth) I put into it.


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## Xerces (Jul 15, 2011)

Before Hokage: *Saved by Naruto *

After Hokage: *Saved by Naruto*

She still needs saving.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Why are you holding her to such a high standard? People cope with sorrow in different ways. *She lost the two people she cared the most about; what would you have done?*



like OP said , Hokage is supposed to bring stability to the village , Kushina lost her family , her clan , everyone she ever loved until she met Minato , did she do half the mess that Tsunade did?

For the Hokage position that needs someone stable mentally , Tsunade doesnt seem so stable if she lost 2 ppl and shes acting like this?

Itachi lost all his family and clan but didnt act like this , Kushina as well.

Gaara lost his family but he got into a mess for like 3-4 years not 20 years like Tsunade.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

As you can see, it's easy to tell who hasn't read the thread, and have just turned to trolling when confronted with evidence. 

Concession accepted.


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

Xerces said:


> Before Hokage: *Saved by Naruto *
> 
> After Hokage: *Saved by Naruto*
> 
> She still needs saving.



Saying that is like saying Sasuke beat Itachi fair and square. There were too many factors in play and it's ignorant to make those claims immediately.


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## Marco (Jul 15, 2011)

This is what you've been upto when you were banned, weren't you?

Reading now.


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## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> you say "has she not defended the village to the best of her ability?"
> 
> the answer is "not really , but Naruto did"
> 
> ...



You obviously didn't read what she wrote. Tsunade did defend the village. In fact, she did it better than any other Kage. Your point that Naruto protected the village is invalid because Naruto wasn't there when Pain invaded. Although the buildings were left decimated, Tsunade protected the villagers who are essentially the viallge.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> like OP said , Hokage is supposed to bring stability to the village , Kushina lost her family , her clan , everyone she ever loved until she met Minato , did she do half the mess that Tsunade did?



The fact that she met Minato was the very reason she was able to rise above the sorrow of the destruction of her clan. And have you forgotten so quickly what Mito said? Reread it, if you must.



Namikaze Minato said:


> For the Hokage position that needs someone stable mentally , Tsunade doesnt seem so stable if she lost 2 ppl and shes acting like this?



Compared to Minato who broke down at the sight of his wife dying, and who also *failed* to inform the village of Madara's involvement in the Kyuubi's attack? Who sealed the Nine-Tailed Fox into his son with incredibly poor justification?

Loving the double standards.



Namikaze Minato said:


> Itachi lost all his family and clan but didnt act like this , Kushina as well.



And have you forgotten Madara's comments regarding Itachi's inner turmoil and psychological battle with self? Yes, you apparently have.



Namikaze Minato said:


> Gaara lost his family but he got into a mess for like 3-4 years not 20 years like Tsunade.



Gaara killed people who "looked at [him] the wrong way." How can you even compare Tsunade to him (before being TNJ'ed, of course)?


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## MSAL (Jul 15, 2011)

That is a freaking HUGE thread LB.

Very very well written.


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## Judecious (Jul 15, 2011)

Holy shit great thread LB.  Will give a proper reply soon :3


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Marco said:


> This is what you've been upto when you were banned, weren't you?
> 
> Reading now.



No, I was working on something else. Suu took care of it, though. Then I recalled how annoyed I was when people kept saying she was a "filler Hokage" or just "keeping the seat warm for Naruto" like she wasn't an actual Hokage and just did nothing. So, in the span of perhaps seven or so hours (basically from when I woke up), I've been hunting down scans by myself and formatting and putting my thoughts into this analysis you see here.


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

> Tsunade did defend the village. *In fact, she did it better than any other Kage.*



No idea where you get the bolded part.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> You obviously didn't read what she wrote. Tsunade did defend the village. In fact, she did it better than any other Kage. Your point that Naruto protected the village is invalid because Naruto wasn't there when Pain invaded. Although the buildings were left decimated, Tsunade protected the villagers who are essentially the viallge.



Tsunade could've made a temporary deal with Danzo and ANBU Root , hell if i was Hokage at the time i'd offer Danzo a temporary deal , for example appointing one of his men as Jounin Commander instead of Shikaku , it's not a great call but it would save the lives and the infrastructure of the village in case a village decided to invade after the Pain incident.

Tsunade made no effort to see her options regarding Danzo , a smart Hokage would consider an asset like him , remember the Hokage's job is to protect the village at any cost , making a deal with Danzo is sure costly there is no denying that , but Village's lives are priority.

you might say Danzo didnt want to do anything , thats right , but with the right motivations like any man he would get tempted and accept the deal that Tsunade would offer him.

Tsunade did a OK job but she had better options that she didnt explore and the result is that Konoha is now completely destroyed.


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## Judecious (Jul 15, 2011)

Vermilion Kn said:


> These Tsunade praising threads fail.
> 
> No matter how hard people spin things, it won't change the fact that she is nothing but a fodder character with a large rack.
> 
> Try again when she regains some significance. _( as if ) _



Fodder?   The manga disagrees but you are too blind to see that fact.

Without her many more would have died during the Pain invasion.  "Without her Konoha wouldn't have won the second great war" Jiraiya


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## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> No idea where you get the bolded part.



Comparing things in perspective to Minato and Hiruzen. I'll provide scans if you want.

Honestly, you can't argue that she was the perfect match for Pain's invasion when it came to ensuring the survival of the village. In other attacks, previous kages died. And significant life was lost

I doubt any other Kage could have tanked CST like she did.


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## aiyanah (Jul 15, 2011)

lol maybe i should start posting here again


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## supersaiyan146 (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> like OP said , Hokage is supposed to bring stability to the village , Kushina lost her family , her clan , everyone she ever loved until she met Minato , did she do half the mess that Tsunade did?
> 
> For the Hokage position that needs someone stable mentally , Tsunade doesnt seem so stable if she lost 2 ppl and shes acting like this?
> 
> ...



I think this pretty much  answers your query bro 



silenceofthelambs said:


> Why are you holding her to such a high standard?



That being said ..I appreciate the OP's effort . I agree that she has done a lot as Hokage .

The only reason that most people take a go at her is that she is a "Fodder" compared most of the top tiers in Part 2 IMO.


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## Jeroen (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> like OP said , Hokage is supposed to bring stability to the village , Kushina lost her family , her clan , everyone she ever loved until she met Minato , did she do half the mess that Tsunade did?
> 
> For the Hokage position that needs someone stable mentally , Tsunade doesnt seem so stable if she lost 2 ppl and shes acting like this?
> 
> ...



If you're gonna troll, could you, at least, put in some effort. I mean, seriously, this is just a shitty attemp at best.

smh.


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> Comparing things in perspective to Minato and Hiruzen. I'll provide scans if you want.
> 
> Honestly, you can't argue that she was the perfect match for Pain's invasion when it came to ensuring the survival of the village. In other attacks, previous kages died. And significant life was lost
> 
> I doubt any other Kage could have tanked CST like she did.



Sorry, but Minato and Hiruzen fought the Kyuubi, not Pain. There's reason to believe that Minato might have been able to beat Pain.

Completely different situations. I'm not denying that Tsunade did a good job, but it's ignorant to say that.


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## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Tsunade could've made a temporary deal with Danzo and ANBU Root , hell if i was Hokage at the time i'd offer Danzo a temporary deal , for example appointing one of his men as Jounin Commander instead of Shikaku , it's not a great call but it would save the lives and the infrastructure of the village in case a village decided to invade after the Pain incident.
> 
> Tsunade made no effort to see her options regarding Danzo , a smart Hokage would consider an asset like him , remember the Hokage's job is to protect the village at any cost , making a deal with Danzo is sure costly there is no denying that , but Village's lives are priority.
> 
> ...



You do have a point. But Danzo was following his own agenda and Tsunade had no room in it. His plan involved her death. And if she negotiated with him, it the deal would have been over the seat of Hokage and she would not give that up.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Am I really seeing that Tsunade should've put faith in her arch nemesis within the village and put him in charge of the Jounins, which would've only helped Danzou pull a swifter coup? Really?


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Tsunade could've made a temporary deal with Danzo and ANBU Root , hell if i was Hokage at the time i'd offer Danzo a temporary deal , for example appointing one of his men as Jounin Commander instead of Shikaku , it's not a great call but it would save the lives and the infrastructure of the village in case a village decided to invade after the Pain incident.
> 
> Tsunade made no effort to see her options regarding Danzo , a smart Hokage would consider an asset like him , remember the Hokage's job is to protect the village at any cost , making a deal with Danzo is sure costly there is no denying that , but Village's lives are priority.
> 
> you might say Danzo didnt want to do anything , thats right , but with the right motivations like any man he would get tempted and accept the deal that Tsunade would offer him.



You'd rather have Danzo be Hokage? The Machiavellian dictator?



Namikaze Minato said:


> Tsunade did a OK job but she had better options that she didnt explore and the result is that Konoha is now completely destroyed.



Pain destroying Konoha wasn't Tsunade fault. Once he realized Naruto wasn't in the village, there was no reason to search for him any longer. He could raze it to the ground without compunction. It was to teach them true "pain."



SuperMinato146 said:


> That being said ..I appreciate the OP's effort . I agree that she has done a lot as Hokage .
> 
> The only reason that most people take a go at her is that she is a "Fodder" compared most of the top tiers in Part 2 IMO.



That's where the fallacy lies. Define how exactly she fits the category of "fodder."


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## supersaiyan146 (Jul 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Who also *failed* to inform the village of Madara's involvement in the Kyuubi's attack? Who sealed the *Nine-Tailed Fox into his son with incredibly poor justification?*
> 
> Loving the double standards.



Now I would love to hear what that would have accomplished . I'm all ears now.

And LOL at the bolded .

Minato clearly explained why he had to seal it inside Naruto .

And Minato had no Idea about Madara's "Moon eye Plan" ..so yeah that sounds fair enough. 

Give Minato a break dude.



silenceofthelambs said:


> That's where the fallacy lies. Define how exactly she fits the category of "fodder."



Read my fucking post properly.

She is a "Fodder" in comparison to most of the Top Tiers introduced in the later part of the series.

Most of the akatsuki, RM Naruto, A, B , Rinnegan Madara, Kabuto etc etc.


----------



## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Sorry, but Minato and Hiruzen fought the Kyuubi, not Pain. There's reason to believe that Minato might have been able to beat Pain.
> 
> Completely different situations. I'm not denying that Tsunade did a good job, but it's ignorant to say that.



But Pain basically held his own against the Kyuubi. Thus I would put them on the same level.

And yes, you say that is Naruto, but I say they are one in the same. Plus since he was facing Naruto, a jin, it was much harder since controlled bijuus are stronger than wilder ones. When I say contolled, I mean with a host.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Now I would love to hear what that would have accomplished . I'm all ears now.
> 
> And LOL at the bolded .
> 
> ...



I'm doing the same thing Namikaze Minato is doing. Holding characters to an unrealistic standard. You see how unfair that is?



SuperMinato146 said:


> Read my fucking post properly.
> 
> She is a "Fodder" in comparison to most of the Top Tiers introduced in the later part of the series.
> 
> Most of the akatsuki, RM Naruto, A, B , Rinnegan Madara, Kabuto etc etc.



What a myopic mentality this is. So you define "fodder" based only on power levels? 

By that definition, everyone weaker than RM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Kabuto, and Rinnegan Madara are fodder. Because they just don't compare any longer.


----------



## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> But Pain basically held his own against the Kyuubi. Thus I would put them on the same level.
> 
> And yes, you say that is Naruto, but I say they are one in the same. Plus since he was facing Naruto, a jin, it was much harder since controlled bijuus are stronger than wilder ones. When I say contolled, I mean with a host.



Again, this isn't Dragonball Z. Saying that Kyuubi = Pain, therefore Tsunade would be able to deal with the Kyuubi is silly. They have COMPLETELY different tactics and strategies and fighting methods. Kyuubi is an overpowered fox, while Pain is a group of 6 people with weird abilities.



> If you're gonna troll, could you, at least, put in some effort. I mean, seriously, this is just a shitty attemp at best.
> 
> smh.



I'm sick of people who call every single person who tries to argue a troll.


----------



## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Sorry, but Minato and Hiruzen fought the Kyuubi, not Pain. There's reason to believe that Minato might have been able to beat Pain.
> 
> Completely different situations. I'm not denying that Tsunade did a good job, but it's ignorant to say that.



And I find there is no difference in their opponent. They both had the task of defending the village.

Plus there was two Kage level ninjas in the village at the time of Hiruzen and Minato's fight. Oh and the elders helped in that fight.

Who did Tsunade have in her bout with Pain? Herself


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> I'm sick of people who call every single person who tries to argue a troll.



When the argument is terrible in every single facet, there's nothing else you can really call it, except attempting to provoke an emotional response from others (i.e. trolling).


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> I'm doing the same thing Namikaze Minato is doing. Holding characters to an unrealistic standard. You see how unfair that is?



Hokage position does have a high standard , why do you think Hashirama appointed his brother Tobirama?

why do you think Tobirama tested his team when he wanted to appointed a new Hokage?

why do you think Hiruzen preferred Minato over Orochimaru?

It's because the Hokage is the one with the most responsibility in their actions , they have responsibility to the village.

and in the other post where you quote me u said Pain destroying Konoha wasnt Tsunade's fault?

as i recall and many members recall Tsunade was the one who PROVOKED Pain to Nuke the village , read the pain invasion Chapters and you'll see.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jul 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> I'm doing the same thing Namikaze Minato is doing. Holding characters to an unrealistic standard. You see how unfair that is?



Yeah now explain me what you said you would have accomplished .

I've no problems with you holding Minato to an unrealistic standard . To be fair he is the definition of "Near Perfection" in this manga . I'd love to hear what more he could have done .



silenceofthelambs said:


> What a myopic mentality this is. So you define "fodder" based only on power levels?
> 
> By that definition, everyone weaker than RM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Kabuto, and Rinnegan Madara are fodder. Because they just don't compare any longer.



Wtf ?


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> And I find there is no difference in their opponent. They both had the task of defending the village.
> 
> Plus there was two Kage level ninjas in the village at the time of Hiruzen and Minato's fight. Oh and the elders helped in that fight.
> 
> Who did Tsunade have in her bout with Pain? Herself



The fuck? Are you really saying that Pain and Kyuubi are the same thing?

Woooooooooow.


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## Jeroen (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> I'm sick of people who call every single person who tries to argue a troll.



Don't lump me in the same group as those people ffs.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Standing up for her village, and admitting it wasn't always right, but defending it regardless is provoking Pain? Is it her fault he has the temperament of a toddler?

She did what any respectable Hokage would do. She stood up for her village. Had she done nothing or backed away, you would've bashed her harder, and you'd have a valid point then. You don't as it is now. Pain wanted to teach them true pain, had no reason to keep Konoha standing, and destroyed it. Tsunade protected the villagers from it. Plain and simple.


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## MSAL (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> as i recall and many members recall Tsunade was the one who PROVOKED Pain to Nuke the village , read the pain invasion Chapters and you'll see.



Nagato had a grudge against Konoha dating back to the death of his parents. He didn't really need a big excuse to try and destroy the village.

Tsunade did what she was expected to do and put her life on the line to protect Konoha. If that confronting Pein, then so be it.

Minato also put his life on the line to protect Konohha by confronting the Kyuubi. So you really shouldn't knitpick this facet of her responsibility.

No other Kage would've walked away from that situation without question.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Hokage position does have a high standard , why do you think Hashirama appointed his brother Tobirama?
> 
> why do you think Tobirama tested his team when he wanted to appointed a new Hokage?
> 
> ...



No, you're measuring her abilities and accomplishments using an *impossibly* high standard. When I did the same thing with Minato, suddenly the masses lashed out at me. Don't you see the error in your ways?

Yes, maybe she didn't handle her lover and brother's death in a "practical" manner, but once again, *people aren't flawless*. Someone like Minato, who has no imperfections to him at all, is an example of a character I can't stand. They have no depth; you can't relate to them because of their superlative superficiality.



Namikaze Minato said:


> as i recall and many members recall Tsunade was the one who PROVOKED Pain to Nuke the village , read the pain invasion Chapters and you'll see.



Read.



silenceofthelambs said:


> Pain destroying Konoha wasn't Tsunade fault. Once he realized Naruto wasn't in the village, there was no reason to search for him any longer. He could raze it to the ground without compunction. It was to teach them true "pain."





SuperMinato146 said:


> Yeah now explain me what you said you would have accomplished



Don't expect too much out of any one person. They have limitations and fears.



SuperMinato146 said:


> Wtf ?



Reading comprehension. 



SuperMinato146 said:


> I've no problems with you holding Minato to an unrealistic standard . To be fair he is the definition of "Near Perfection" in this manga . I'd love to hear what more he could have done .



Which is exactly why I hate him.


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## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> The fuck? Are you really saying that Pain and Kyuubi are the same thing?
> 
> Woooooooooow.



No. 

Hmm how can I say this without confusing you...

I'll state it like I did most recently. The objective was to protect the village. The opponent really doesn't matter.

Minato + Hiruzen + Elders against Kyuubi

Tsunade against Pain.

Tsunade was very much at a disadvantage in her battle because she was the only Kage level ninja in the village at that time.


And back to the Kyuubi point. Naruto a jin is stronger than a rampaging bijuu because he has a control over it and can wield it's power in battle. Pain went toe to toe with Naruto with one body. This one body was enought to hold the eight tails. And not to forget the others, the other five were enough to defeat an entire village, and stand toe to toe with a jin.

I'm not saying they're the same, but really the power scale isn't that big of a difference.


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## Crona (Jul 15, 2011)

I read all of it...and I liked it.  Great job OP on Tsunade. She's good at being a Hokage and all her flaws just make her more human, thus more likable as a character.  Don't understand all the hate she gets, but I guess all characters have haters. Rated this thread 5 stars


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## supersaiyan146 (Jul 15, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> And I find there is no difference in their opponent. They both had the task of defending the village.
> 
> Plus there was two Kage level ninjas in the village at the time of Hiruzen and Minato's fight. Oh and the elders helped in that fight.
> 
> Who did Tsunade have in her bout with Pain? Herself



Wait what ? 

No one could do Jack to Kyuubi that night . All they managed to do was hold it back for just a brief time .

Had Minato not been there the entire village would have been obliterated .

Put Minato in the same position as Tsunade and things would have been much much different . He could have easily blitzpwned every single Pain body including Deva .

No I am not trying to degrade Tsunade's accomplishment of saving the villagers lives ..just pointing out that the comparison is unfair.


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

> I'll state it like I did most recently. The objective was to protect the village. The opponent really doesn't matter.



So what about the power scale?

The fact is that they're two completely different entities with completely different battle tactics and techniques. The Kyuubi just tries to destroy everything while Pain is a group of 6 people, all with their own special ability. You need completely different abilities and skills to defend the village from an attack from Pain.

It's like saying that Sasuke can beat Deidara and Sasori assuming they have the same level of power. Which he can't, because Sasuke had a strategical advantage due to his Raiton.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

What Fireworks is trying to say is that Tsunade, out of all the Hokages, was best suited to counter Pain's village-destroying Shinra Tensei. Thanks to Katsuyu, her bijuu-like chakra store (and she has two sets, one on the seal on her forehead), and her medical ninjutsu ability, she was able to counteract Pain's Shinra Tensei, nullifying its effects on the villagers. Whereas the other Kages wouldn't be quite well suited to dealing with protecting everyone in the village at once from such a large-scale attack. 

That isn't to say that they wouldn't fare better than Tsunade did against Pain. But when Fireworks says protect, he literally means "protect" as in prevent from hurt or damage, as opposed to defeating the invading force.


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## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

When did Tsunade become such a controversial character. Another good long read for another tsu thread. reps for you.
It felt more like a reading of history or a wiki for the the first section of the OP.

I see alot of Minato talk, I am not understanding what he has to do with Tsunade's capability as hokage.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> No, you're measuring her abilities and accomplishments using an *impossibly* high standard. When I did the same thing with Minato, suddenly the masses lashed out at me. Don't you see the error in your ways?



no its not an impossible standard , basically a Kage makes the choices that makes or breaks the village , a Kage's job is not like a ramen guy cooking ramen.

it's not my fault that Tsunade just doesnt measure up to the job , because if she did , Hiruzen would've offered her the job after Minato died.

and Tsunade didnt cope in a practical way because she's not a stable person and the Hokage position require , not it demands a stable person for the sake of the village , and i've already mentioned lots of examples and there is more in the manga.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Put Minato in the same position as Tsunade and things would have been much much different. *He could have easily blitzpwned every single Pain body including Deva.*
> 
> No I am not trying to degrade Tsunade's accomplishment of saving the villagers lives ..just pointing out that the comparison is unfair.



Opinionated, agenda-driven, statement. Nothing more, nothing less.



Namikaze Minato said:


> no its not an impossible standard , basically a Kage makes the choices that makes or breaks the village , a Kage's job is not like a ramen guy cooking ramen.
> 
> it's not my fault that Tsunade just doesnt measure up to the job , because if she did , Hiruzen would've offered her the job after Minato died.
> 
> and Tsunade didnt cope in a practical way because she's not a stable person and the Hokage position require , not it demands a stable person for the sake of the village , and i've already mentioned lots of examples and there is more in the manga.



You attack Tsunade, but refuse to step outside your own bias for a minute, and examine the mistakes of other characters (particularly, those you like). 

You say she isn't "stable," "doesn't measure up to the title of Hokage," and makes poor decisions.

*Prove it.*


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Fireworks



He literally said "I'll state it like I did most recently. The objective was to protect the village. The opponent really doesn't matter. ". So I'm afraid that's not what he was trying to say.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> That isn't to say that they wouldn't fare better than Tsunade did against Pain. But when Fireworks says protect, he literally means "protect" as in prevent from hurt or damage, as opposed to defeating the invading force.



Yeah but defeating the invading force also amounts to "Protecting" the village right?


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## Kisame (Jul 15, 2011)

Yeah, I agree.

This is a pretty good thread, Beauty.


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## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> So what about the power scale?
> 
> The fact is that they're two completely different entities with completely different battle tactics and techniques. The Kyuubi just tries to destroy everything while Pain is a group of 6 people, all with their own special ability. *You need completely different abilities and skills to defend the village from an attack from Pain.*It's like saying that Sasuke can beat Deidara and Sasori assuming they have the same level of power. Which he can't, because Sasuke had a strategical advantage due to his Raiton.


Pain is a thinking person which is harder to fight than a rampaging animal.

Defending an attack from Pain is much harder if that is what you're saying. Proving my earlier point.


SuperMinato146 said:


> Wait what ?
> 
> No one could do Jack to Kyuubi that night . All they managed to do was hold it back for just a brief time .
> 
> ...



Minato wouldn't have defeated Pain so easily. I'm not saying he couldn't win, but it'd be hard as hell. Every body was scattered making them hard to pinpoint. Also, Minato couldn't have stopped CST


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> no its not an impossible standard , basically a Kage makes the choices that makes or breaks the village , a Kage's job is not like a ramen guy cooking ramen.
> 
> *it's not my fault that Tsunade just doesnt measure up to the job , because if she did , Hiruzen would've offered her the job after Minato died.*
> 
> and Tsunade didnt cope in a practical way because she's not a stable person and the Hokage position require , not it demands a stable person for the sake of the village , and i've already mentioned lots of examples and there is more in the manga.



You do realize she had already left the village after the Second Great Shinobi World War? Before Minato was even Hokage? The same reason she wasn't considered by the Councillors initially for the title of Godaime Hokage? How do you offer a title to someone who A.) doesn't want anything to do with the village, and B.) is missing?

Grieving over your loved ones because they died due to the medical institution that could've saved them  you proposed  not coming into effect is "not practical"? Nor is leaving the shinobi lifestyle, right? Whose to say it isn't?


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## Googleplex (Jul 15, 2011)

> While the mission was ultimately a failure, it boiled down to Naruto's capability and prowess versus Sasuke's. Seeing as Sasuke was a genius and had a better grasp of ninjutsu than Naruto, I can't say I'm surprised at the ending.



If this was the case it can arguably be attributed to Tsunade allowing this: why send someone who has no hope in defeating Sasuke to fight Sasuke? Though I agree with you only I would say it boiled down more to Kyuubi chakra vs Uchiha chakra being amplified by the curse seal... for clear reasons Sasuke'd win.

Granted this doesn't hinder your point greatly, just a little nitpick I had to get off my chest. 



> I believe she would've been the best suited for leading the Alliance, due to her excellent capabilities as the Hokage.



Could you not say that this may not totally be the case as even after her awakening, everyone - including Tsunade herself - had no issues or debate about the Raikage's capability over the Hokage's?


---


Overall, I like your thread. 

Its also worth noting that its not really wise to rag on Tsunade for not fighting Pain, looking at hype in context as well as (what some like to do, I see) feats... no Hokage could really have taken Pain. 
For example, whilst it took Minato's life and help from his wife to take out the Kyuubi, Pain found it possible to pin down the monster with one body after using a lot of chakra during the day.

Now it would be incredibly questionable if you rag on her for not fighting Madara... for reasons I don't think I need to go into.... 

Its a shame though that a lot of posters won't really appreciate Tsunade just because she doesn't fight on the level of the forum-labeled elite.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jul 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Opinionated, agenda-driven, statement. Nothing more, nothing less.



 

The Paths weren't fighting together when they were demolishing the village.



Fireworks said:


> Minato couldn't have stopped CST



FCD GG


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

> Pain is a thinking person which is harder to fight than a rampaging animal.
> 
> Defending an attack from Pain is much harder if that is what you're saying. Proving my earlier point.





> The Nine-Tails is a malevolent entity with a natural cunning and intelligence, but it does have a distinct sense of honour and possesses a loathing respect for Naruto. However, the Nine-Tails is also treacherous, as it was shown throughout Part II, it would relentlessly seize any kind of opportunity for it to usurp control over Naruto and tempt him to completely break the seal. According to the Nine-Tails, it has watched over Naruto ever since it was sealed within him.



The Kyuubi is pretty smart too.


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## MSAL (Jul 15, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> The Paths weren't fighting together when they were demolishing the village.



Blitzing Deva would be debateable, if he has a ST enabled to fire.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> You attack Tsunade, but refuse to step outside your own bias for a minute, and examine the mistakes of other characters (particularly, those you like).
> 
> You say she isn't "stable," "doesn't measure up to the title of Hokage," and makes poor decisions.
> 
> *Prove it.*


well her drugging Jiraiya is something that a stable person just doesnt do and the person who does this to a comrade is unfit to be Hokage.


LegendaryBeauty said:


> You do realize she had already left the village after the Second Great Shinobi World War? Before Minato was even Hokage? The same reason she wasn't considered by the Councillors initially for the title of Godaime Hokage? How do you offer a title to someone who A.) doesn't want anything to do with the village, and B.) is missing?



i meant if he acknowledged that she deserved the job , he'd bring her to Konoha and offer her the Hokage Position , but he didnt.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> He literally said "I'll state it like I did most recently. The objective was to protect the village. The opponent really doesn't matter. ". So I'm afraid that's not what he was trying to say.



His original intent was to display that Tsunade was best suited for protecting the villagers from Shinra Tensei. You can ask him to clarify if that's what he meant. How he worded it after may have been confusing.



SuperMinato146 said:


> Yeah but defeating the invading force also amounts to "Protecting" the village right?



I'm not saying that it isn't. I quite agree, it is. But say Chou Shinra Tensei had already been unleashed over the village? What would Minato have done? He's incredibly fast, but I doubt he could've teleported to every single one of the hundreds of thousands of villagers all over the huge village and warp them to safety in the few seconds Chou Shinra Tensei started and finished. Tsunade was able to protect them because the Katsuyu were already there. If it meant getting them there while it was already activated, I believe far more casualties would've occurred.

Minato is far more suited to facing the opponent and bringing them down as opposed to defensively protecting all the countless villagers from a village busting technique. He didn't have the assets (i.e. a summon that could disperse and cover everyone, the summon also being incredibly durable, etc) to do so.



Namikaze Minato said:


> i meant if he acknowledged that she deserved the job , he'd bring her to Konoha and offer her the Hokage Position , but he didnt.



You can't bring someone to Konoha who doesn't want to be in Konoha and *is missing.* That's just what I told you.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> The Paths weren't fighting together when they were demolishing the village.



So what? Maybe Minato could have gone around the village, defeating one path after another.

If Pain finds out Naruto isn't there, it's still CST, GG. And this time, Minato can't do anything to stop it. Food Cart Destroyer, which you place so much stock in, would have been meaningless.



Namikaze Minato said:


> well her drugging Jiraiya is something that a stable person just doesnt do and the person who does this to a comrade is unfit to be Hokage.



She drugged Jiraiya to ensure that he wouldn't interfere when she went to kill Orochimaru. Perhaps you choose to ignore that as well.


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## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

Man this thread is moving to fast for me to respond.

There was a point in the manga where Tsunade could have been replaced. When she was in a coma and Kakashi was appointed Hokage after Danzo died.
The council and Fire lords were together preparing to make Kakashi's title official, but when Tsunade woke up she regained her position. If Tsunade was doing an unsatisfactory job as Hokage would they not have replaced her?


----------



## Googleplex (Jul 15, 2011)

Whilst I largely agree with the OP, I wouldn't readily say Tsunade managed to prevent the deaths of everyone hit with the grand Shinra Tensei; Gedo Rinne Tensei showed that there were a lot of people killed from that one blast. 

However its still good to say Tsunade did better than any other Hokage could've in that situation as, for example, I'm willing to say that if Hashirama or Minato faced that situation, a lot more people would've died; those Hokage may have drawn Pain into a fight first, but they would be hindered as Pain could casually destroy what he wanted whilst the Hokage would have to ensure they don't destroy Konoha... that's assuming Pain wouldn't just use a Shinra Tensei of the bat and that was me grossly exaggerating the speed in which the Hokage could bring Pain down from the sky and fight him; in that situation.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

I think that Gedo Rinne revived those that were continued to be killed after Tsunade had saved them, and obviously the ones killed before. Though those are just my thoughts.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jul 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> So what? Maybe Minato could have gone around the village, defeating one path after another.
> 
> If Pain finds out Naruto isn't there, it's still CST, GG. And this time, Minato can't do anything to stop it. Food Cart Destroyer, which you place so much stock in, would have been meaningless.




And how long did it take to find out ?

And that is assuming MInato would allow Deva sufficient time to launch himself to use CST and why exactly would it be meaningless?
It takes no less that a instant.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Let's not turn this into a Minato thread, thank you. You're free to create your own and discuss it there.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> Whilst I largely agree with the OP, I wouldn't readily say Tsunade managed to prevent the deaths of everyone hit with the grand Shinra Tensei; Gedo Rinne Tensei showed that there were a lot of people killed from that one blast.
> 
> However its still good to say Tsunade did better than any other Hokage could've in that situation as, for example, I'm willing to say that if Hashirama or Minato faced that situation, a lot more people would've died; those Hokage may have drawn Pain into a fight first, but they would be hindered as Pain could casually destroy what he wanted whilst the Hokage would have to ensure they don't destroy Konoha... that's assuming Pain wouldn't just use a Shinra Tensei of the bat and that was me grossly exaggerating the speed in which the Hokage could bring Pain down from the sky and fight him; in that situation.



It wasn't only Chou Shinra Tensei that caused the deaths of Konoha villagers. Remember demon realm's numerous blasts that wiped out several buildings, or Konan and her swift murder of several unnamed characters? Or hell realm's interrogations, which ended in death? Or Animal Realm and his summons? Human Realm's soul removals similar to Hell's?


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## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> The Kyuubi is pretty smart too.


I was under the impression that bijuus without hosts are dumb. They don't know how to use their power. The Kyuubi seemed smart because for one, we've only heard his thoughts when he was already housed inside Naruto.


SuperMinato146 said:


> FCD GG



What does this even mean?


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

> His original intent was to display that Tsunade was best suited for protecting the villagers from Shinra Tensei. You can ask him to clarify if that's what he meant. How he worded it after may have been confusing.



I disagree, but it's too trivial to argue over.

Tsunade is just a cool character that had a lot of potential but got screwed over by Kishimoto's negligence of women in Part 2. I blame the author rather than the character failing.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> I disagree, but it's too trivial to argue over.
> 
> Tsunade is just a cool character that had a lot of potential but got screwed over by Kishimoto's negligence of women in Part 2. I blame the author rather than the character failing.



Agreed. He has a chance to redeem himself, however, for Tsunade if she gets her chance against Dan or one of the Edo-Jinchuurikis/Six Paths of Madara coming to HQ. I'm quite intent to see how he's going to write her out of a battle for this one.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> And how long did it take to find out ?
> 
> And that is assuming MInato would allow Deva sufficient time to launch himself to use CST and why exactly would it be meaningless?
> It takes no less that a instant.



I don't know, and I don't care.

This isn't a thread where we discuss Minato and his battle power.



Fireworks said:


> What does this even mean?



Food Cart Destroyer.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jul 15, 2011)

Meh I hate where this thread is going . Its going to turn in to a Minato Vs Pain soon which I'd like to avoid.

So I'll be taking my leave .



silenceofthelambs said:


> I don't know, and I don't care.
> 
> This isn't a thread where we discuss Minato and his battle power.



 

You were the one who asked how Minato was going to deal with Deva and it doesn't concern his battle prowess ?


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

Minato is one of the most boring, one-dimensional characters in shonen history. Even a teacup has more of a personality than he does.


----------



## Googleplex (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I think that Gedo Rinne revived those that were continued to be killed after Tsunade had saved them, and obviously the ones killed before. Though those are just my thoughts.





silenceofthelambs said:


> It wasn't only Chou Shinra Tensei that caused the deaths of Konoha villagers. Remember demon realm's numerous blasts that wiped out several buildings, or Konan and her swift murder of several unnamed characters? Or hell realm's interrogations, which ended in death? Or Animal Realm and his summons? Human Realm's questioning similar to Hell's?





I suppose its up for debate as the author didn't seem to be too clear on the death rate and the main contributor to them (individual onslaughts or super Shinra Tensei).
Although for me, I just assumed as it was Nagato using a full powered Shinra Tensei, he probably caused a lot deaths... that and I personally cannot imagine Pain killing so many people in a single day without some massive boom.


----------



## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> *Agreed. He has a chance to redeem himself, however, for Tsunade if she gets her chance against Dan or one of the Edo-Jinchuurikis/Six Paths of Madara coming to HQ. I'm quite intent to see how he's going to write her out of a battle for this one*.



 Yeah he has no excuse.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Minato is one of the most boring, one-dimensional characters in shonen history. Even a teacup has more of a personality than he does.



I wholeheartedly agree. I'd pick a shovel over Minato.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> I suppose its up for debate as the author didn't seem to be too clear on the death rate and the main contributor to them (individual onslaughts or super Shinra Tensei).
> Although for me, I just assumed as it was Nagato using a full powered Shinra Tensei, he probably caused a lot deaths... that and I personally cannot imagine Pain killing so many people in a single day without some massive boom.



He had six bodies (seven, if you count Konan), summons, and devastating jutsu to do it with. He is the wielder of the same Doujutsu, the Rinnegan, that was bore by the Father of all Jutsu. I don't think it's a stretch he could've caused so much calamity and destruction, even without CST.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm going to ask once more that this not become a hate thread for any character. I dislike Minato as much as anyone else, but there are people who like him, so be respectful. Stick to the topic at hand, please.


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## nadinkrah (Jul 15, 2011)

Why everyone blame Kishi because Tsunade is a medic? Don't forget about Mei and Konan lol


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> You were the one who asked how Minato was going to deal with Deva and it doesn't concern his battle prowess ?



I have you to thank for that:



SuperMinato146 said:


> *He could have easily blitzpwned every single Pain body including Deva.*



Like I said, the topic doesn't interest me anymore. This is a Tsunade thread.


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## Googleplex (Jul 15, 2011)

Isn't there the battledome for Pain vs Minato?



LegendaryBeauty said:


> He had six bodies (seven, if you count Konan), summons, and devastating jutsu to do it with. He is the wielder of the same Doujutsu, the Rinnegan, that was bore by the Father of all Jutsu. I don't think it's a stretch he could've caused so much calamity and destruction, even without CST.



I guess that is true. But imo I do think 'CST' did kill quite a lot of people; which to me suggests that under other Hokage it would be 'Konoha, population: 0'.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

.


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## Hero (Jul 15, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> I guess that is true. But imo I do think 'CST' did kill quite a lot of people; which to me suggests that under other Hokage it would be 'Konoha, population: 0'.



Meh I don't know about that one buster. As far as we know, they could have been buried under rocks.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> Isn't there the battledome for Pain vs Minato?



Certainly, sir. But for some reason, that just isn't enough:



SuperMinato146 said:


> *He could have easily blitzpwned every single Pain body including Deva.*


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

silenceofthelambs, SuperMinato146 has already dropped the topic. Please do not bring it up again, thanks.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> silenceofthelambs, SuperMinato146 has already dropped the topic. Please do not bring it up again, thanks.



 **


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## Googleplex (Jul 15, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> Meh I don't know about that one buster. As far as we know, they could have been buried under rocks.



Perhaps. Although I would point out that a smaller scale Shinra Tensei was able to break the bones of three giant toads, so I presumed that the biggest one we've seen would possibly do more damage that that. That is a testament to Tsunade's healing as she actually managed to save quite a few people when Nagato used 100% of his power on that single Shinra Tensei.


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## SaVaGe609 (Jul 15, 2011)

I wish Sai had as proud a fanbase as Tsunade has


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

On-topic, I think summers brought up a very good point about the village not replacing Tsunade while she was in a coma. There were other respectable candidates available during that time (Kakashi being one of them), but for some reason there was reluctance about putting someone else in office. 

It only solidifies the point that she's worthy of the title of Hokage.


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## HawkMan (Jul 15, 2011)

It's not that she's a bad Hokage, rather an unimpressive one. Her restructuring of the Konoha Military System should be noted, as should her flippant decision-making. 

Endorsing Team 10's Mission despite misgivings, being out-maneauvered by Danzou-a vote of no-confidence, and her emotionally charged agreement with Naruto's decision to join the BattleField can be seen negatively. 

When compared to the likes of Hashirama, Hurizen, or Minato in terms of strength and command she comes up short. A Hokage or any leader is a decision-maker first and foremost. Regardless of her ability to defend the Village, I find her decision-making process to be questionable at best.


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## Distance (Jul 15, 2011)

SaVaGe609 said:


> I wish Sai had as proud a fanbase as Tsunade has



She's Konoha's first female president, but I don't think they are ready for a gay one just yet.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

She was against Team 10's mission to get revenge, assuming that's what you're referring to. Kakashi stepped in, however, and they were determined to go, so she let them under his supervision.

A Hokage shouldn't be compared in terms of power. They should be noted for their love and protection of the village, which all of the Hokages have done to date. Whatever means, whatever outcome, as long as they put their life on the line, they are a true Hokage.


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## Soul (Jul 15, 2011)

I will neg you later, LB.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Stunning and provocative response. Really elaborate.


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## Eternal Pein (Jul 15, 2011)

Every Tsunade thread turn's into something to do with Minato every time. I wonder why this is


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Inexplicable phenomenon. I try not to question it.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Despite all this, I see people claim she has bad leadership, bad decisions, relies too much on faith. Isn't it justified? Hasn't she taken all the necessary actions to ensure things went smoothly, much more so than it would've gone if she took the other Kage's approach and let things be, if not play a hand in her and her village's own destruction?



How can you claim that Pain destroying the village 'went smoothly'?

How can you say that the only member of the Uchiha clan deserting and nearly killing the village's jinchuriki is anything remotely close to going smoothly? If Sasuke chose to kill Naruto then and there Konoha's military potential would have plummeted to the ground. 

How can you say that giving Sasuke a second chance to kill Naruto was a good decision? If it wasn't for Oro's whim(PNJ) Konoha would be worthless. 



Tsunade has repeatedly made terrible decisions which placed Naruto's life and Konoha's future in the hands of Konoha's enemies. How is that anything but retarded decision making?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> How can you claim that Pain destroying the village 'went smoothly'?
> 
> How can you say that the only member of the Uchiha clan deserting and nearly killing the village's jinchuriki is anything remotely close to going smoothly? If Sasuke chose to kill Naruto then and there Konoha's military potential would have plummeted to the ground.
> 
> ...





LegendaryBeauty said:


> Continuing with that tangent in regards to the Invasion of Pain Arc, Tsunade did what was expected of her and what any Hokage would do.  (which was the whole reason he left in the first place, to master Sage Mode and defeat Pain if he came),               ,       ,  , having saved the villagers from annihilation once already. Before she was sidelined, however, ,
> 
> She did everything she could short of dying (which very well could've happened hadn't she been saved by Naruto and recovered her chakra) to protect her village and be a good leader.



**


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> *intended to fight him even though she was no match for him*



So you think being suicidal is a good quality in a leader?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

It's called putting your life on the line. Do you think being suicidal is a good quality in a soldier?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> It's called putting your life on the line. Do you think being suicidal is a good quality in a soldier?



There's a huge difference between being suicidal and putting your life on the line to make some sort of a difference. 

With Tsunade's power fighting Pain could not possibly make a difference. Opening some sort of a dialog should have been her primary objective instead of insulting and provoking Pain.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> There's a huge difference between being suicidal and putting your life on the line to make some sort of a difference.
> 
> With Tsunade's power fighting Pain could not possibly make a difference. Opening some sort of a dialog should have been her primary objective instead of insulting and provoking Pain.









Funny. Doesn't look like mindless arguing to me.


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## ? (Jul 15, 2011)

Excellent thread, I enjoyed the read. Completely backed by the manga. I can only imagine how long it must have taken you to make this thread. 5-stars.


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## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

Inu said:


> Excellent thread, I enjoyed the read. Completely backed by the manga. I can only imagine how long it must have taken you to make this thread. 5-stars.



7hours including distraction time.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Funny. Doesn't look like mindless arguing to me.



Calling Pain a terrorist. Telling him that his words are worthless. 

Tell Pain that Konoha will fight him until they no longer have any strength left to do so.

Calling Pain's ideology bull.

She's a pro alright...


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

It's a matter of hours when I have the drive, aka Will of Fire~


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## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Calling Pain a terrorist. Telling him that his words are worthless.
> 
> Tell Pain that Konoha will fight him until they no longer have any strength left to do so.
> 
> ...



Sound like the truth to me.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Calling Pain a terrorist. Telling him that his words are worthless.
> 
> Tell Pain that Konoha will fight him until they no longer have any strength left to do so.
> 
> ...



She tried to figure out what Akatsuki was up to. Would you have preferred she remained docile and aided him, after baking him some cookies and pointed out where Naruto was? 

That hardly seems realistic. Every other Kage would've stood up. Oh wait, no they wouldn't. They'd ignore the terrorist, and some would even help him. Whatever vendetta you have against her is at odds with the manga. Sorry to break it to you.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

summers said:


> Sound like the truth to me.



the truth that she felt the need to say , that in the end made the Konoha infrastructure into nothingness and people living on the floor when they used to live in houses and sleep on bed.

there is a proverb "Silence is Golden". Tsunade should've followed that proverb for 10 minutes , if she did Konoha would be still there , but she had to throw in her 2 cents in a provocative way , as usual.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> the truth that she felt the need to say , that in the end made the Konoha infrastructure into nothingness and people living on the floor when they used to live in houses and sleep on bed.
> 
> there is a proverb "Silence is Golden". Tsunade should've followed that proverb for 10 minutes , if she did Konoha would be still there , but she had to throw in her 2 cents in a provocative way , as usual.



If she hadn't talked, he would've been even more furious she didn't entertain him even that much. He wanted Konoha to feel pain, and had a vendetta since his parents were killed. You honestly believe a man who had just broken into the village, terrorized the villagers, killed lots of people, and demanded answers would leave the village peacefully if she hadn't said a single word to him?


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> the truth that she felt the need to say , that in the end made the Konoha infrastructure into nothingness and people living on the floor when they used to live in houses and sleep on bed.
> 
> there is a proverb "Silence is Golden". Tsunade should've followed that proverb for 10 minutes , if she did Konoha would be still there , but she had to throw in her 2 cents in a provocative way , as usual.



So if Pain walked and talked all over Tsunade, you would have respected her?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> She tried to figure out what Akatsuki was up to. Would you have preferred she remained docile and aided him, after baking him some cookies and pointed out where Naruto was?
> 
> That hardly seems realistic. Every other Kage would've stood up. Oh wait, no they wouldn't. They'd ignore the terrorist, and some would even help him. Whatever vendetta you have against her is at odds with the manga. Sorry to break it to you.



What? When did she try to figure out what Akatsuki was up to during her conversation with Pain?

And sure some the other Kages would have fought Pain. Those with the strength to defeat Pain would have probably done so before Pain destroyed the village. Sadly Tsunade clearly lacked the strength to stand up to Pain and by the time she confronted him the village was already fucked beyond repair and had no chance at functioning as a unit due to Tsunade's leadership.


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## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> the truth that she felt the need to say , that in the end made the Konoha infrastructure into nothingness and people living on the floor when they used to live in houses and sleep on bed.
> 
> there is a proverb "Silence is Golden". Tsunade should've followed that proverb for 10 minutes , if she did Konoha would be still there , but she had to throw in her 2 cents in a provocative way , as usual.



Pain hates Konoha, we already know why. He at that point has already murdered everyone in his path, no provocation is needed for Pain he will do whatever he wants. The first thing Pain did when he got into Konoha was fire missiles into random innocent citizens homes. 
I am also sure that if she stood there and let Pain trash talk she naysayers would bash her anyway. Pain would have dont it for her not acknowledging what he was saying. He would have done it regardless of what she did or did not do or say unless it was complete surrender.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> What? When did she try to figure out what Akatsuki was up to during her conversation with Pain?
> 
> And sure some the other Kages would have fought Pain. Those with the strength to defeat Pain would have probably done so before Pain destroyed the village. Sadly Tsunade clearly lacked the strength to stand up to Pain and by the time she confronted him the village was already fucked beyond repair and had no chance at functioning as a unit due to Tsunade's leadership.



What? Surprised I made something up? But you're so good at it, I thought you would've recognized it off the bat. 

Tsunade displayed excellent leadership, everything any respectable Kage would do. You're arguing that standing up for your village and its ideals is the idiot's thing to do, when someone barges into your home. What do you think is the better alternative?


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> If she hadn't talked, he would've been even more furious she didn't entertain him even that much. He wanted Konoha to feel pain, and had a vendetta since his parents were killed. You honestly believe a man who had just broken into the village, terrorized the villagers, killed lots of people, and demanded answers would leave the village peacefully if she hadn't said a single word to him?



remember when Pain asked Konoha Shinobis if they knew where Naruto is , and that if they told him , he'd let them live?

him saying that he'd let them live means that he didnt plan on nuking the village but Tsunade provoked him.

also the fact that Akatsuki is professionals , yes they have hatred but when it comes to Jinchurikis which is of supreme importance to Akatsuki , they are very professional and dedicated , so it's highly unlikely what you are saying.

also the fact that Madara said that Nagato over-exerted his power and thats why he died early when he used the jutsu that shortens his life span CST also proves that Madara didnt think Pain would resort into nuking the village since Madara ordered him to do a specific thing which is only to capture the Kuuybi Jinchuriki and lets not forget that Madara knows Nagato very well because he was using him for many many years.


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## Eternal Pein (Jul 15, 2011)

I think it's funny how people say Pain only destroyed Konoha with CST because he got pissed off at Tsunade. I personally was under the impression that he would have done so anyway to make Konoha feel his Pain and his anger towards Konoha for the thing's that happend to Amegakure and his family due to the war and Konoha.

There is also no reason to believe that Nagato had any Konoha shinobi decided to tell him where Naruto was that he would just leave peacefully and say "thank's for the information".


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> remember when Pain asked Konoha Shinobis if they knew where Naruto is , and that if they told him , he'd let them live?
> 
> him saying that he'd let them live means that he didnt plan on nuking the village but Tsunade provoked him.
> 
> ...



You believed the words of a terrorist? Oh wow.

Do you know how many terrorists and kidnappers and rapists say they'll let the victim live if they don't try to fight them or call the police or anything? And how many actually survive?

Did you expect her, or anyone else with a working brain, to take a terorrist's words at face value? Did you honestly expect him to take siege over a village and leave if they told him the answer to a simple question?

I don't think you're this naive. You know the answer to this. The _correct_ answer.


----------



## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

Eternal Pein said:


> I think it's funny how people say Pain only destroyed Konoha with CST because he got pissed off at Tsunade. I personally was under the impression that he would have done so anyway to make Konoha feel his Pain and his anger towards Konoha for the thing's that happend to Amegakure and his family due to the war and Konoha.



NO! he shortened his life span and deactivated all his bodies Just to piss of that failure Tsunade. Read the manga.


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## Eternal Pein (Jul 15, 2011)

summers said:


> NO! he shortened his life span and deactivated all his bodies Just to piss of that failure Tsunade. Read the manga.



You obviously didn't read the manga well enough if you think he would go through all that trouble just because one person pissed him off.

You really think if Nagato was pissed only at Tsunade that he would destroy the entire village and shorten his life span instead of just killing Tsunade.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> You believed the words of a terrorist? Oh wow.
> 
> Do you know how many terrorists and kidnappers and rapists say they'll let the victim live if they don't try to fight them or call the police or anything? And how many actually survive?
> 
> ...



this is the words of the main character Naruto to Nagato and Konan "You are not like the rest of Akatsuki who kill for fun and enjoy killing"

those are the words that Naruto said when he met Nagato and Konan.

which proves that Pain was sincere when he said he'd let them live since Naruto realized that Nagato dont kill for fun , his mission are the top priority.

so it's clear that the author was speaking through Naruto at that instance.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> this is the words of the main character Naruto to Nagato and Konan "You are not like the rest of Akatsuki who kill for fun and enjoy killing"
> 
> those are the words that Naruto said when he met Nagato and Konan.
> 
> ...



He killed people who didn't answer his question. He killed people who remained silent. He killed innocent villagers. 

And yet you trust him so sincerely? Naruto's an idealist, of course he's not going to call Nagato what he is. He didn't kill him, even when he was boiling over with rage for what he did to Konoha. 

You don't get to choose who the author was speaking through. He does it through all his characters. Pointing out one and claiming it the supreme opinion of the author is biased and unfounded. As is any indication that Pain would've left the village alone.

Perhaps you forget. Pain specifically said he wanted to instill Pain in Konoha. Sounds like he did it for fun (due to get revenge) to me.


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## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

Eternal Pein said:


> You obviously didn't read the manga well enough if you think he would go through all that trouble just because one person pissed him off.
> 
> You really think if Nagato was pissed only at Tsunade that he would destroy the entire village and shorten his life span instead of just killing Tsunade.



I was being sarcastic. Guess Im not good at it. I am on the Tsunade side.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> What? Surprised I made something up? But you're so good at it, I thought you would've recognized it off the bat.



I'm just amused at how you're avoiding the argument at hand.



> Tsunade displayed excellent leadership, everything any respectable Kage would do. You're arguing that standing up for your village and its ideals is the idiot's thing to do, when someone barges into your home. What do you think is the better alternative?



Not really. A respectable Kage would have saved the village from destruction, Tsunade's provocations caused the village's destruction. 

Tsunade did not stand up for the village or it's ideals. Even when there was a kunai to Hiruzan's throat he still attempted to negotiate instead of insulting his enemy, Minato attempted to negotiate with Tobi, and Hashirama even entered into an alliance with his enemy. 

Naruto did stand up for the village and it's ideals. He attempted to understand his enemy and turn him into a friend. He saved the village unlike Tsunade, his actions were worthy of the Hokage title unlike Tsunade's.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> He killed people who didn't answer his question. He killed people who remained silent. He killed innocent villagers.
> 
> And yet you trust him so sincerely? Naruto's an idealist, of course he's not going to call Nagato what he is. He didn't kill him, even when he was boiling over with rage for what he did to Konoha.
> 
> ...



he killed ppl at first to make diversion so he can interrogate the shinobi he faces , Kakashi actually said that.

you might be right if it was any char , but Naruto is the Main char , hes the hero , hes the char that the story is based upon , so the author is indeed speaking through him.

and Pain said he wanted to instill Pain in Konoha AFTER his conversation with Tsunade.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I'm just amused at how you're avoiding the argument at hand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Likewise, I enjoy how you failed to comprehend my point, and presumably haven't read the OP. 

Yes, it was Naruto, not Tsunade, who saved them from Chou Shinra Tensei. It was Naruto, not Tsunade, who protected the people and kept them alive to find out Pain's secret. It was Naruto, not Tsunade, who kept the village running efficiently while they were being invaded, because Naruto's obviously the one who deserves all the glory.

I totally see your point. This isn't even sarcasm I'm using. Not at all.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Likewise, I enjoy how you failed to comprehend my point, and presumably haven't read the OP.
> 
> Yes, it was Naruto, not Tsunade, who saved them from Chou Shinra Tensei. It was Naruto, not Tsunade, who protected the people and kept them alive to find out Pain's secret. It was Naruto, not Tsunade, who kept the village running efficiently while they were being invaded, because Naruto's obviously the one who deserves all the glory.
> 
> I totally see your point. This isn't even sarcasm I'm using. Not at all.



Naruto's actions resulted in Pain reviving everybody, so anything Tsunade did was utterly worthless. Naruto is the one who deserves the title of Hokage, not Tsunade.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> he killed ppl at first to make diversion so he can interrogate the shinobi he faces , Kakashi actually said that.
> 
> you might be right if it was any char , but Naruto is the Main char , hes the hero , hes the char that the story is based upon , so the author is indeed speaking through him.
> 
> and Pain said he wanted to instill Pain in Konoha AFTER his conversation with Tsunade.



Killing people to create a diversion is killing people for fun. Your earlier point is invalid.

The author speaks through all his characters. Cause, y'know, they're his creations. The main character doesn't mean only his words are relevant.

He wanted to instill Pain in Konoha ever since they killed his parents. Not that hard to grasp.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto's actions resulted in Pain reviving everybody, so anything Tsunade did was utterly worthless. Naruto is the one who deserves the title of Hokage, not Tsunade.



Because Hinata, Shizune, Ino, Inoichi, and Co. being dead would've allowed Naruto to figure out Pain's secret, and it was not Hinata whose intervention and subsequent defeat allowed Naruto to turn the tables and beat Pain. 

Tsunade took Konoha from shambles to glory, eradicated almost half of Akatsuki, and allowed Naruto his freedom and put her faith in him, faith that was justified with the deaths of Kakuzu and Pain. 

Konan said reviving the people Nagato did would've killed him, since he was so low on chakra. Imagine if Tsunade hadn't bothered saving people, nevermind protecting the people to ensure Pain's secret was found out to help Naruto defeat them. Nagato would've been unable to revive everyone.

Good try, though.


----------



## Eternal Pein (Jul 15, 2011)

summers said:


> I was being sarcastic. Guess Im not good at it. I am on the Tsunade side.



Ohhhh, well it's kinda hard sometime's to tell it's sarcasm when it's written or typed and not vocalized. I just looked back in the thread and saw you're post's.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Killing people to create a diversion is killing people for fun. Your earlier point is invalid.
> 
> The author speaks through all his characters. Cause, y'know, they're his creations. The main character doesn't mean only his words are relevant.
> 
> He wanted to instill Pain in Konoha ever since they killed his parents. Not that hard to grasp.



killing people for diversion serves the purpose of his mission , which is the opposite of fun , because executing a strategy on the battlefield is NOT fun.

the weight of the words differ from a character to another , for example a word coming from Naruto is more believable than Ebisu , that's just the way it is.

and No , because if he did Jiraiya would've known , he wanted to instill Pain at the 5 big villages , but after his conversation with Tsunade he wanted to instill Pain specifically into Konoha.


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## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

Eternal Pein said:


> Ohhhh, well it's kinda hard sometime's to tell it's sarcasm when it's written or typed and not vocalized. I just looked back in the thread and saw you're post's.



Its all good.

Isnt funny that everything bad that happens under Tsunade leadership justified or not is all her fault, but she does not get any credit for the amazing successes that has happened under her command?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> killing people for diversion serves the purpose of his mission , which is the opposite of fun , because executing a strategy on the battlefield is NOT fun.
> 
> the weight of the words differ from a character to another , for example a word coming from Naruto is more believable than Ebisu , that's just the way it is.
> 
> and No , because if he did Jiraiya would've known , he wanted to instill Pain at the 5 big villages , but after his conversation with Tsunade he wanted to instill Pain specifically into Konoha.



He has Six Paths and summons with which to make a distraction, not to mention Konan herself. The fact that there were six bodies rampaging was distraction enough. 

Killing people for something as meagre as a distraction is for fun. He couldn't care less. He ruthlessly killed his sensei. He set his summons (including the Centipede one) free, which attacked children. Surely that's part of his "mission", though right? Kill little kids and everyone else just to find one shinobi? That's most definitely not fun.

I suppose Naruto's more knowledgeable/believable in regards to Jounin matters than Ebisu, eh? That's not how it works. They've got equal say, Naruto's words don't eclipse everyone else's, regardless of his status as main character.

Provide proof it was solely Tsunade's words that made him want to destroy the village. No, his promise he wouldn't beforehand doesn't count. The word of a terrorist is flimsy. If a serial killer came to your house and said he was only going to kill your family but spare you, would you believe him? That's what you're doing with this situation.


----------



## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Because Hinata, Shizune, Ino, Inoichi, and Co. being dead would've allowed Naruto to figure out Pain's secret, and it was not Hinata whose intervention and subsequent defeat allowed Naruto to turn the tables and beat Pain.
> 
> Tsunade took Konoha from shambles to glory, eradicated almost half of Akatsuki, and allowed Naruto his freedom and put her faith in him, faith that was justified with the deaths of Kakuzu and Pain.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure that it was the intervention of a true Hokage, Minato, which allowed Naruto to turn the tables and defeat Pain. And if you would care to remember, Shizune was already dead by the time Naruto arrived. 

*Tsunade took Konoha from glory to shambles. Allowing most of the village's shinobi to be eradicated by Akatsuki.* 

It was Naruto's and Minato's actions which led to Pain's defeat and the survival of Konoha as a village. Not Tsunade's.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I'm pretty sure that it was the intervention of a true Hokage, Minato, which allowed Naruto to turn the tables and defeat Pain. And if you would care to remember, *Shizune was already dead by the time Naruto arrived. *



After the secret had been found out. Your point?



> *Tsunade took Konoha from glory to shambles. Allowing most of the village's shinobi to be eradicated by Akatsuki.*



Yes, Tsunade's defending her village's pride and ideals to a terrorist was totally out of line and its solely her fault an already vehement Pain who intended to teach them Pain blew up the village.

Your points are getting more and more flimsy.



> It was Naruto's and Minato's actions which led to Pain's defeat and the survival of Konoha as a village. Not Tsunade's.



It's at this point you're not worth debating over, as I've explained to you time and again, especially in the OP, why this is false. Good day to you, sir.


----------



## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> After the secret had been found out. Your point?



Tsunade did nothing to keep Shizune alive. 



> Yes, Tsunade's defending her village's pride and ideals to a terrorist was totally out of line and its solely her fault an already vehement Pain who intended to teach them Pain blew up the village.
> 
> Your points are getting more and more flimsy.



She defended her own pride. The village's pride had fallen with Kakashi and Chouza, the proud shinobi who fought Pain without any kind of support from their leaders. I guess you could say that Tsunade is directly to blame for the hundreds if not thousands of shinobi Pain killed because she withheld the information Jiraiya had gathered from them. But that's another topic in and of itself. 

It is indeed solely Tsuande's fault that Konoha was destroyed. She basically told Pain that Konoha would fight him to the death, which meant either his death or Konoha's. She made it clear that peace was not an option and that the only way to avoid any more strife was for Konoha to be destroyed. 



> It's at this point you're not worth debating over, as I've explained to you time and again, especially in the OP, why this is false. Good day to you, sir.



So you're saying that Tsunade did more to defeat Pain than Naruto? You're funny.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Tsunade did nothing to keep Shizune alive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Peace with a terrorist. And you say I'm funny.


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## thetitansage (Jul 15, 2011)

You did a hell of a job writing this legendarybeauty


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

I try                    .


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Peace with a terrorist. And you say I'm funny.



Isn't it hilarious how Tsunade's little war with Pain turned out? Konoha getting wiped out within minutes of her rejecting any notion of peace. 

It's also funny how Naruto's friendship with Pain resulted in the village being revived and Konoha gaining another village as an ally. 


Not really, it's kinda sad how little Tsunade can do as a Hokage besides wait for Naruto to take over.


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## Bane (Jul 15, 2011)

I stopped reading when I saw that you said no one was as good as her at battle ninjutsu. Now i'm pretty sure that means Taininjutsu and i'm also pretty sure that A would woop her ass five ways to sunday.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Exterminating Akatsuki wasn't good enough for you?

I said Jiraiya said that. Which he did.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Exterminating Akatsuki wasn't good enough for you?



She didn't kill a single Akatsuki...


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> She didn't kill a single Akatsuki...



You know exactly what I mean. She actively sent out her ninja to kill Akatsuki members, aid Sunagakure when they were in a crisis because of Akatsuki ninjas, and formed the Niju Shotai to capture/kill Akatsuki members. So her not killing a single one of them herself means it isn't her accomplishment as a leader? Where does that leave the other Kages, then?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> You know exactly what I mean. She actively sent out her ninja to kill Akatsuki members, aid Sunagakure when they were in a crisis because of Akatsuki ninjas, and formed the Niju Shotai to capture/kill Akatsuki members. So her not killing a single one of them herself means it isn't her accomplishment as a leader? Where does that leave the other Kages, then?



It's not her accomplishment as a leader. If she was actually leading these shinobi then it would be her accomplishment but she was sitting on her ass while true leaders such as Kakashi, Shikamaru, and Naruto did the fighting.

The other Kages? Like Hashirama who confronted Madara and Kyuubi head on? Or Tobirama who confronted the enemy in order to allow his allies to get away? Or Minato who fought against Tobi? Or Hiruzen who sacrificed his life in order to prevent Orochimaru and the Edo Kages from wiping out Konoha?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> It's not her accomplishment as a leader. If she was actually leading these shinobi then it would be her accomplishment but she was sitting on her ass while true leaders such as Kakashi, Shikamaru, and Naruto did the fighting.



Do you expect anyone to take you seriously with comments like these?


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## Bane (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm taking him pretty seriously. I mean if I give a guy a great plan then he goes out and does all the work who should get the credit for getting the job done?

(BTW: The answer is 50/50)


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## dungsi27 (Jul 15, 2011)

Overall Tsunade was a good leader,but not a good manager.She was well respected by almost every shinobis in the village and shes willing to die protecting it.However Tsunade mande many poor decisions as a Hokage.For example her handling of Peins invasion or her decision to send Naruto and Sakura to save Sasuke.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Do you expect anyone to take you seriously with comments like these?



Comments which give credit to the people who put their lives on the line? The people who defend their nation as apposed to those who sit on their asses hundreds of miles away?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

KSM Naruto said:


> I'm taking him pretty seriously. I mean if I give a guy a great plan then he goes out and does all the work who should get the credit for getting the job done?
> 
> (BTW: The answer is 50/50)



But she didn't give them any kind of plan.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

KSM Naruto said:


> I'm taking him pretty seriously. I mean if I give a guy a great plan then he goes out and does all the work who should get the credit for getting the job done?
> 
> (BTW: The answer is 50/50)



They wouldn't have been facing Akatsuki in the first place if she hadn't allowed it and actually encouraged it. We saw how that goes with the other Kages. They kept their shinobis and troubles to themselves.

Tsunade was actually putting them on missions to actively search and eradicate a goal. It's like a President's plan to generate free healthcare. The President proposes it, endorses it, puts it through, etc. But the actual doctors and other members are acting on it to provide the service. Do the doctors get the credit? No, the president does. Why? Because it was his idea and his plan in the first place, and he deserves the glory. Another example is Osama bin Laden being killed during Obama's reign. Do people individually thank the soldiers who did it? No, they thanked Obama who tasked them to do it in the first place, otherwise they wouldn't have done it/or been allowed. That's how it works.

That's not to say the people who actually killed the Akatsuki member don't deserve credit. But if they weren't allowed to in the first place, they wouldn't have been actively looking out for Akatsuki themselves, in a similar manner to the other villages avoiding (or even helping) Akatsuki.



dungsi27 said:


> Overall Tsunade was a good leader,but not a good manager.She was well respected by almost every shinobis in the village and shes willing to die protecting it.However Tsunade mande many poor decisions as a Hokage.For example her handling of Peins invasion or her decision to send Naruto and Sakura to save Sasuke.



Her handling of the Pain invasion arc was addressed in the OPs. And she didn't send Naruto and Sakura to save Sasuke; that was a byproduct of their defeating of Sasori. She had nothing to do with that, aside from allowing them to see if the spy would spill some info.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> They wouldn't have been facing Akatsuki in the first place if she hadn't allowed it and actually encouraged it. We saw how that goes with the other Kages. They kept their shinobis and troubles to themselves.



What are you talking about? The Raikage ordered attacks against the Akatsuki and attacked their hideouts. He was also actually taking part in the planning of attacks against Akatsuki unlike Tsunade. 

The Mizukage led a revolt against the previous Mizukage who was controlled by the Akatsuki. 

Both of them did far more then Tsunade did.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Provide scans for this.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Provide scans for this.



For what? That Raikage sent out shinobi to attack Akatsuki? Or that there was a revolt in the mist village?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Both                   .


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Both                   .



Isn't it common knowledge? I mean come on...


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Isn't it common knowledge? I mean come on...



So you're unable to provide a scan for your claim and then proceed to say it's common knowledge.

Concession accepted.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> So you're unable to provide a scan for your claim and then proceed to say it's common knowledge.
> 
> Concession accepted.



No, I'm just pointing out how silly your argument is. Kinda sad when you ask proof for common knowledge, come on I came her to be entertained not see this kind of a sad argument. 

Calling Pain's ideology bull.
Calling Pain's ideology bull.
Calling Pain's ideology bull.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, I'm just pointing out how silly your argument is. Kinda sad when you ask proof for common knowledge, come on I came her to be entertained not see this kind of a sad argument.
> 
> Calling Pain's ideology bull.
> Calling Pain's ideology bull.
> Calling Pain's ideology bull.



First two don't prove there was a revolt, only that there was a previous bad leader being controlled.

The third does indeed show him sending shinobi out. And who exactly did his shinobi defeat?


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## tsunadefan (Jul 15, 2011)

i like the thread LB. nnniiiccceee. 



AKmyWaffle said:


> It's not her accomplishment as a leader. If she was actually leading these shinobi then it would be her accomplishment but she was sitting on her ass while true leaders such as Kakashi, Shikamaru, and Naruto did the fighting.
> 
> The other Kages? Like Hashirama who confronted Madara and Kyuubi head on? Or Tobirama who confronted the enemy in order to allow his allies to get away? Or Minato who fought against Tobi? Or Hiruzen who sacrificed his life in order to prevent Orochimaru and the Edo Kages from wiping out Konoha?



i lol'd at this. i laughed especially at the first part. as LB said, how can someone take you seriously? and as LB said about the president, they are the leaders because they implemented the plans etc. that is what a leader really does. now what the other hokage's did were acting like soldiers really. and again you are saying that they are better than tsunade because they fought theirs, yet someone asked if she is suicidal if she wanted to fightpein?! sigh... tsunadeHAtards just make me wanna facepalm.


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## Googleplex (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm pretty sure with his grudge against Konoha, Pain was more than willing to destroy the village the moment he learnt that his target wasn't there.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> First two don't prove there was a revolt, only that there was a previous bad leader being controlled.
> 
> The third does indeed show him sending shinobi out. And who exactly did his shinobi defeat?



Well so far Raikage's forces have taken out several Akatsuki members including Deidera, Sasori, Kisame, and about 40000 Zetsu. But I'm not really keeping count at this point. 

Besides as I recall each of the other Kages and Danzou have all actually fought against Akatsuki. How many Akatsuki members did Tsunade fight so far?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Well so far Raikage's forces have taken out several Akatsuki members including Deidera, Sasori, Kisame, and about 40000 Zetsu. But I'm not really keeping count at this point.
> 
> Besides as I recall each of the other Kages and Danzou have all actually fought against Akatsuki. How many Akatsuki members did Tsunade fight so far?



I'm talking about before they become Edo Zombies.


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## Eternal Pein (Jul 15, 2011)

Tsunade's job as Hokage doesn't entail her to go out and fight every single Akatsuki member she can find. The way you make it sound is that someone can't be a good leader unless they fight out in the front line's with the soldier's. This is like saying the president of the US should go out and fight the terrorist on the front line's as well.


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## joshhookway (Jul 15, 2011)

pretty good stuff. We can all agree that Tsunade is weak compared to other kages, but her organization and actions are much better.

I HOPE PEOPLE CAN FINALLY AGREE AND THAT I DON"T HAVE TO CONTINUE STRESSING THAT KONOHA IS THE MOST SELFLESS VILLAGE AND THEY ALMOST SOLELY ELIMINATED AKUTSUKI. 

           Sasori, Hidan, Kakazu, Kisame, Pain were eliminated by Konoha ninja and Deidara, Oro and Itachi were also eliminated by Konoha born Ninja


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I'm talking about before they become Edo Zombies.



Kisame and the 40000+ Zetsu... Come on keep up.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

So one Akatsuki member and 40k+ fodder, all of which weren't destroyed solely by Raikage's village. Compared to Four Akatsuki members and presumably just as much destroyed White Zetsus.

Right, I can really see the difference in leadership.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> So one Akatsuki member and 40k+ fodder, all of which weren't destroyed solely by Raikage's village. Compared to Four Akatsuki members and presumably just as much destroyed White Zetsus.
> 
> Right, I can really see the difference in leadership.



Look how many times the Akatsuki has reduced every other village to rubble and you see the clear and obvious difference.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Look how many times the Akatsuki has reduced every other village to rubble and you see the clear and obvious difference.



Look how many times a bearer of the Rinnegan came a'knockin' on other villages as well.

Your points are petty and flimsy. You're better off debating another topic.


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## tsunadefan (Jul 15, 2011)

@ eternal pein: i agree. its like thats all akmy is sayin. because she didnt fight them, she aint a good hokage.
@ akmy: the point actually is that as a LEADER, she was the one out of all the others to actually do something about akatsuki. and she started from earlier on! she even was in contact with the sanded and built something good with them! unike the others who actually are declining one another when there is a bigger threat at hand. they finally had some sense and decided with the kage meetig.


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## joshhookway (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm loling at Waffle vs Legendary Beauty, this a war between the two


        I'm coming to the conclustion after reading a million posts that it's a common Knowledge that Tsunade is not the most powerful Kage, but it's debatable whether she mades good decisions or not


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Look how many times a bearer of the Rinnegan came a'knockin' on other villages as well.
> 
> Your points are petty and flimsy. You're better off debating another topic.



The rinnegan can be defeated, and as I recall Konoha attacked Pain before he attacked them. So maybe it was rather unwise for Tsunade to attack another village and a rinnegan user on top of that. 

Personally I think it was a bad decision on her part to be completely unprepared for a counterattack from the Rain.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Thank you for your input.


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## Googleplex (Jul 15, 2011)

Could we not say that the decisions of the first through to the fourth Hokage were made in times of relative peace? Tsunade's choices came in after the death of Minato; it seemed things were going downhill for Konoha since Minato's death. Of course they looked up with the advent of Tsunade's Hokage-ship, at least that's the impression I got from the atmosphere. 
That in-itself tells you she was a good Hokage. 

Whether she was the best Hokage, we don't know. Bearing in mind we know everything from her reign whilst we know little to nothing about the decisions the other Hokage made during their rein; its easy to let the imagination run wild. Which is why I suppose, going by my lurking, war starts when someone says Sage Mode Naruto is above Minato- Minato's been too unknown thus the imagination ran really wild.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

tsunadefan said:


> @ akmy: the point actually is that as a LEADER, she was the one out of all the others to actually do something about akatsuki. and she started from earlier on! she even was in contact with the sanded and built something good with them! unike the others who actually are declining one another when there is a bigger threat at hand. they finally had some sense and decided with the kage meetig.



I guess you and I have a different visions of what a leader is suppose to do. In my opinion a leader is suppose to lead and provide directions to those below him or her. It seems that in your opinion a leader is suppose to simply hand out assignments and rely on others to get the job done.


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## Crow Master Apprentice (Jul 15, 2011)

She makes her return with a legendary thread.

Another great thread on Tsunade, must rep.


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## Xerces (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Exterminating Akatsuki wasn't good enough for you?






Exterminating Akatsuki? 

Throughout the entirety of the manga, Tsunade has literally yet to even lay a finger on a _single_ Akatsuki member. The sole time she was faced against a member, her village ended up being obliterated, and she required saving from certain death. 

Furthermore, to skew the intentions of the author to such extremes, and displayed in this thread, is disrespectful to not only Kishimoto, but any rational reader of manga. *It has been made strikingly clear by the author, that Tsunade's existence in the manga solely revolves around her skills at paperwork and other secretary related jobs.* The notion of even analyzing the substance Tsunade's character is laughable:  It is non-existence.


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## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

So strange. If a leader send out their subordinates and they complete the mission then they are not doing anything and they receive not credit as a leader(Tsunade), despite that being the role of the Kages, but if the leader send out their subordinates and they dont complete the mission then they are deserving of credit(Raikage other kages)?


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## Googleplex (Jul 15, 2011)

Tsunade had to handle a damaged village and shortly had to deal with Akatsuki and many Kage jobs like not ignoring Gaara's request and tried to help him get a summit going about Akatsuki; raising the threat level of Akatsuki. 
Fighting Pain, I don't think she had the intention. She was only going to because she thought Naruto wasn't there; she readily stopped trying when she saw the man of the hour was there. 
As for her decisions, well given the time-frame she came into office and all the stuff that happened... I think its safe to say painful, and going by the boards, unpopular decisions had to be made. 

Though I don't think anyone really questions her decision to let Naruto go through to the war: the boy is taking out Zetsu and zombies in less than a fraction of the time it took entire platoons to do so; a decision which inadvertently saved the Feudal Lords. 
Naruto is likely going to be the man who ends this war and defeats the almighty Madara Uchiha; all possible because it was Tsunade's _decision_ to give him and Killer Bee the green light.
The Raikage, A, wanted to keep them locked up: that _decision_ from the Raikage would've had the Alliance's team slaughtered overnight; Tsunade's _decision_ led to the Zetsu threat being dealt with swiftly. 

I suppose Tsunade's decisions over Naruto are to blame for her 'bad decision maker' label. But ask yourself, had Tsunade never made these Naruto-centric decisions would Konoha and the shinobi world be doing well? 
Put it this way: Tsunade's Naruto-centric decisions led to Nagato's defeat and will lead to Madara's defeat... surely those cannot be bad?

Its easy to say xyz decision was bad, but would doing the opposite have generated a better end result?

Honestly I think these decisions she had to make were due to the cards she was already dealt. Arguably you could say those 'cards were dealt via the _decisions_ of the previous Hokage.


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## Summers (Jul 15, 2011)

Xerces said:


> Exterminating Akatsuki?
> 
> Throughout the entirety of the manga, Tsunade has literally yet to even lay a finger on a _single_ Akatsuki member. The sole time she was faced against a member, her village ended up being obliterated, and she required saving from certain death.
> 
> Furthermore, to skew the intentions of the author to such extremes, and displayed in this thread, is disrespectful to not only Kishimoto, but any rational reader of manga. *It has been made strikingly clear by the author, that Tsunade's existence in the manga solely revolves around her skills at paperwork and other secretary related jobs.* The notion of even analyzing the substance Tsunade's character is laughable:  It is non-existence.



So it more rational to believe that out of the 4 previous kages Minato, Sarutobi,Tobimara, Hashirama That she was picked to shuffle paper.


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## Xerces (Jul 15, 2011)

summers said:


> So it more rational to believe that out of the 4 previous kages Minato, Sarutobi,Tobimara, Hashirama *That she was picked to shuffle paper.*



Have you seen her do anything else?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 15, 2011)

summers said:


> So strange. If a leader send out their subordinates and they complete the mission then they are not doing anything and they receive not credit as a leader(Tsunade), despite that being the role of the Kages, but if the leader send out their subordinates and they dont complete the mission then they are deserving of credit(Raikage other kages)?



It is indeed part of the job of a Kage to access the strength of the shinobi in their village and assign missions to these shinobi. But doing so alone does not make a person worthy of a Kage title, it is the extraordinary actions such as those of every other Hokage that do. Any idiot can pass jobs onto others. 

In Tsunade's case however she has made several noteworthy fuck ups which nearly cost the village it's jinchuriki as well as having cost the village it's one and only Uchiha. Despite knowing that the mission required Chuunin and Jounin Tsunade sent out gennin with Shikamaru in order to retrieve Sasuke. Not only did Sasuke join up with Oro but Konoha had nearly lost a generation of it's shinobi.

Tsunade had also been warned against sending out Naruto to chase after Sasuke after the time-skip, and yet again Konoha nearly lost it's jinchuriki if not for the whim of the enemy. 

I could keep going on about Asuma but I think you get the point by now...



I would also expect a leader to plan ahead for certain situations. For example, Tsunade knew that Orochimaru was going to make a move to recruit Sasuke. Yet she did absolutely nothing to prepare for it. She also did nothing to prepare for Pain's attack, even though preparing for a retaliation should have been quite the standard procedure after attacking another village.


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## Summers (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> It is indeed part of the job of a Kage to access the strength of the shinobi in their village and assign missions to these shinobi. But doing so alone does not make a person worthy of a Kage title, it is the extraordinary actions such as those of every other Hokage that do. Any idiot can pass jobs onto others.
> 
> In Tsunade's case however she has made several noteworthy fuck ups which nearly cost the village it's jinchuriki as well as having cost the village it's one and only Uchiha. Despite knowing that the mission required Chuunin and Jounin Tsunade sent out gennin with Shikamaru in order to retrieve Sasuke. Not only did Sasuke join up with Oro but Konoha had nearly lost a generation of it's shinobi.
> 
> ...



You know why already. Its been made before in this thread.
Chiyo had said that Gaara, the third child, was the first compatible one. 
And she sent medical teams and sand Ninja as back up, the result- no deaths for the good guys.

Naruto has yet to be captured by Akatsuki.

Konoha has procedures for when they are attacked, and defenses built in. Sensing barrier, quick response teams, evacuation procedures all seen during the invasion, even while the invasion was happening we say intelligence gathering that Naruto used to defeat Pain.

By this standards all the kages suck, Sarutobi knew about Oro, Kages knew about akatsuki, some paid them or worked with them.


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## Hero (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> It is indeed part of the job of a Kage to access the strength of the shinobi in their village and assign missions to these shinobi. But doing so alone does not make a person worthy of a Kage title, it is the extraordinary actions such as those of every other Hokage that do. Any idiot can pass jobs onto others.
> 
> In Tsunade's case however she has made several noteworthy fuck ups which nearly cost the village it's jinchuriki as well as having cost the village it's one and only Uchiha. Despite knowing that the mission required Chuunin and Jounin Tsunade sent out gennin with Shikamaru in order to retrieve Sasuke. Not only did Sasuke join up with Oro but Konoha had nearly lost a generation of it's shinobi.
> 
> ...



LB already addressed this point in the OP


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## C-Moon (Jul 16, 2011)

> Despite knowing that the mission required Chuunin and Jounin Tsunade sent out gennin with Shikamaru in order to retrieve Sasuke


She couldn't spare them Sarutobi_Sasuke, you've been told this plenty of times


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## moncoeurmysmile (Jul 16, 2011)

@OP : Great work.

Tsunade was by far the best candidate for hokage.
Her renowned fame surpasses that of Kakashi, thus she commands more respect and "weight" politically [look back at how Raikage saw Kakashi, though Kakashi was famous, he still looked at him as a subordinate/beneath him].

I am still dumb founded on how people say "she did nothing during Pain's invasion".

She saved every single person's life.
Pain's jutsu would have killed 90% of Konoha's citizens if she hadn't summoned her slug to protect everyone.

Her slug gave Naruto all the information he used to defeat Pain.

I understand people doubting her combat ability compared to the Powerhouses like ;Naruto , Madara , Sasuke , Raikage - but she is definetly far from fodder. 

All in all, its almost no use trying to convey a legitimate point to hard headed people. People can/will hate on anything, even *perfection.*


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

summers said:


> You know why already. Its been made before in this thread.
> Chiyo had said that Gaara, the third child, was the first compatible one.
> And she sent medical teams and sand Ninja as back up, the result- no deaths for the good guys.



Sure there were no deaths but the mission was a failure and it placed the life of the village's only Jinchuriki in Sasuke's hands. 

Had Akatsuki been interested in capturing Naruto Zetsu who was watching the fight could of done so then and there. 

Placing the village's future in the hands of the enemy is extremely poor leadership. 



> Naruto has yet to be captured by Akatsuki.



What does the fact that Naruto had to be captured last have to do with Tsunade's skills as a leader? This is just another situation in which Tsunade's poor leadership and Naruto's dumb luck have pulled through. 

But the presence of dumb luck which made things work out in the end does not excuse Tsunade's terrible decisions.



> Konoha has procedures for when they are attacked, and defenses built in. Sensing barrier, quick response teams, evacuation procedures all seen during the invasion, even while the invasion was happening we say intelligence gathering that Naruto used to defeat Pain.



And those procedures somehow helped during the ass fucking Pain delivered to Konoha? I don't think so... Tsunade had information about Pain a week before the attack and she did nothing to prepare. 



> By this standards all the kages suck, Sarutobi knew about Oro, Kages knew about akatsuki, some paid them or worked with them.



Sarutobi had actually considered the situations and planned for it. Unlike Tsunade who gave no thought to the dire situation.


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## Skaddix (Jul 16, 2011)

Please Orochimaru invaded and had his kunai on the old man's neck. Hiruzen also let Orochi escape. And failed to control Danzo and the Elders.


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## Milan? (Jul 16, 2011)

> like OP said , Hokage is supposed to bring stability to the village , Kushina lost her family , her clan , everyone she ever loved until she met Minato , did she do half the mess that Tsunade did?


I don't think Kushina has had enough time in the story to do any damage to anything, besides of course, when the uzumaki child needed help taming the 9tails.

and about bringing stability to the village, which other hokage couldv'e actually saved that many people? and with what technique? because I'd really love to know.



> For the Hokage position that needs someone stable mentally , Tsunade doesnt seem so stable if she lost 2 ppl and shes acting like this?


The only UNREASONABLE emotion/mental instability was hemophobia. Anyone could have a breakdown if confronted with suppressed images/emotions/feeling. Human nature, my dear.



> Itachi lost all his family and clan but didnt act like this , Kushina as well.







> Gaara lost his family but he got into a mess for like 3-4 years not 20 years like Tsunade.


again, I'm really not sure if you understand the concept of these two men.


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## Helios (Jul 16, 2011)

I will gongratulate you for your dedication.

Jiraya nominated a Tsunade who by that time had a blood phobia which turned her completely incapable as a fighter.The fact that she managed to overcome this issue later on is completely irrelevant since we are talking about the stage of nomination.


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## Tempest (Jul 16, 2011)

Great read. I never regarded Tsunade as useless or anything, but the OP definitely opened my eyes and mind to a new perspective on what Tsunade has brought to the table.


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## CrazyAries (Jul 16, 2011)

Great essay, LB. 

Tsunade's accomplishments as Hokage have been understated in the manga but they are there and she does deserve credit for taking Akatsuki threat more seriously than the other kage did initially.  I am not saying that she is perfect, but she did a fairly good job considering the cards that she was dealt.  Tsunade certainly took gambles, but all leaders do, actually.  Some may say that she has entirely too much faith in Naruto, but it has not been unfounded. 

Inevitably, any discussion of Tsunade comes to blame being put on her for *Nagato's actions.*  However, I did have some words prepared for this argument, which I have addressed numerous times: 

Frankly, the impact of Tsunade's words are grossly overblown.  Much of the criticism that Tsunade gets is from those who hate her character.  I am not saying that it makes all of the criticism invalid, but it is a cause of good arguments in her favor being largely ignored.  Also, some lie when they say that it would have been better if she had said nothing to Deva's speech.  They would have that this whole time, as well.

The entire conversation between Tsunade and Deva needs to be reexamined, and, even better, the entire arc.  Look at how small Tsunade's active role was.  It then looks wholly disproportionate to blame her for a village-busting jutsu.  Look at the entire buildup to the Chou Shinra Tensei.  Nagato had to make preparations for the blast.  How can words equal that or elicit such a response?  If words alone were that powerful, Konan's pleas should have thus carried more weight.

Nagato's words (via Deva) did contain valid points, but he was self-righteous and hypocritical.  He had become the type of monster that he despised.  He was driven to avenge the innocents that had died in his nation due to war, but was willing to take the lives of other innocents in his own nation and abroad.  Tsunade was also telling him the truth.  She did not make any excuses for the damage that Konohagakure had done in the past, but she also pointed to the fact that she not could agree with Pain's way of doing things.  He was aiming to be just as destructive as the Five Great Nations, if not more so.

In some debates that I have had about this Pain situation, I have been able to pare down some arguments.  "Well, I still do not think that she handled it wisely."  The bottom line is, though, that her words were an act of defiance.  The entire village was defying Pain and Konan by trying to fight against the intruders and by refusing to give up Naruto's location.  Anything else would have been capitulation.  None of her predecessors would have backed down verbally, either.  Tsunade -- and more importantly, Konohagakure --  had nothing to gain by her bending over for Pain and taking his "offer" for peace or mercy at face value.  It would have resulted in a mix of a  and a .   

I would also like to remind everyone about Hanzo.  Not only was Pain used to kill him, but Hanzo's relatives, associates and clients were killed, as well.  That was definitely heavy-handed, so I am convinced by the assertion that Nagato would be above nuking the village of the nin who took his parents when he had the chance.  We were also shown the flashback of the moments before Hanzo died, and he had become a "dull katana" by then.  He was talked down to before his death.  There was absolutely no guarantee that Deva would have left Konohagakure alone before he left.

What is also being sidestepped is the fact that Nagato had an overall bad strategy.  Going in, his strategy was sound, but shortly thereafter, he went off-script.  When the summons were wreaking havoc, it should have been clear that Naruto was not in the village at the time or anywhere near it.  Itachi had told the other members of Akatsuki that Naruto would be the first person in a group to jump at the enemy.  From that point on, the missing in Konoha should have been finding out about the kyuubi jinchuriki's location.  However, Deva did too much talking beyond asking where Naruto was.  The most effective plan would be for Human realm to target Tsunade or any other higher-up to extract the information of Naruto's whereabouts.  In fact, if Tsunade was taken out early, that would prevent the village from being mass-healed and having the information about Pain's jutsus.  The use of Chou Shinra Tensei was a mistake.  It took Deva Path out of the fight for five minutes and allowed Naruto to quickly take out the other five bodies.  Then, Deva talked to Naruto once he was pinned down.  That gave Hinata enough time to be a trigger for Naruto's anger.  When Naruto had reach eight tails, Nagato misjudged the size of the Chibaku Tensei needed to contain the Kyuubi Naruto.


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## natwel (Jul 16, 2011)

I agree with you. Nobody is as good as Tsunade, I'm glad she regained conciousness.


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## Spanktastik (Jul 16, 2011)

She should be noted for creating the medical department as it is now in Konoha and her extraordinary medical skills. 

Combat skills wise she is only so-so.


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## Suu (Jul 16, 2011)

An absolutely superb essay, LB. It was extremely well-written, well-researched, and you've made some very fine arguments.

I have only admiration for your willingness to take upon such a controversial topic to write about. It is far easier to convince others that Tsunade can fight than to defend Tsunade's actions/decisions/worthiness of her position. I honestly cannot think of anybody more fit to tackle such issues head-on here in the Library.

Just a suggestion; under the "Sasuke Rescue Arc" portion of your essay, you may want to throw in the fact that Tsunade had also sent a squad of _medics_ out to support the rookies during/after their mission; yet more proof that Tsunade had done all that she could to maximise the rookies' chances of success and, more importantly, survival.


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## dungsi27 (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Her handling of the Pain invasion arc was addressed in the OPs. And she didn't send Naruto and Sakura to save Sasuke; that was a byproduct of their defeating of Sasori. She had nothing to do with that, aside from allowing them to see if the spy would spill some info.




Ill give her credits for trying her best and willing to sacrifice herself to save the village.Those truely were characteristics of a good and trustworthy leader.However I do not agree with her strategy.Trying to argue with a terrorist and angering him was not a smart move she should have been more patient.

Her handling of the whole Sasukes thing was also very poor.As I remember said Kakashi admited that Sasuke was indeed a missing-nin,and the usual practice in that situation is to eliminate him.However Tsunade did not,thus she was violating the rule,just because Sasuke was the love interest of her student.Thats not what good managers do.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

Thank you, everyone, for the kind words. I'm glad this essay was such a success.



dungsi27 said:


> Ill give her credits for trying her best and willing to sacrifice herself to save the village.Those truely were characteristics of a good and trustworthy leader.However I do not agree with her strategy.Trying to argue with a terrorist and angering him was not a smart move she should have been more patient.
> 
> Her handling of the whole Sasukes thing was also very poor.As I remember said Kakashi admited that Sasuke was indeed a missing-nin,and the usual practice in that situation is to eliminate him.However Tsunade did not,thus she was violating the rule,just because Sasuke was the love interest of her student.Thats not what good managers do.



It's not that she was intentionally arguing with him for the sake of pissing him off. She was justifying Konoha's actions, while also admitting that the Five Great Nations were not without their own faults. Regardless of this, she would not accept his terrorism. Standard words any leader of an invaded village would say.

The Sasuke thing, while probably not a good idea, is just another display of Tsunade's faith. She's seen him pull off the miracle of mastering the Rasengan in a week, despite believing no one could, especially since the creator of it took three years to do so. And she'd known of Jiraiya's attempt to persuade/bring back Orochimaru, their former teammate. And she's also stated to the Councillors quite adamantly that Naruto would succeed where Jiraiya failed, when speaking of defeating Pain, and become a better shinobi than his master. I think that belief and statement apply to the Sasuke situation too. 

She expended every resource she had available and called for back up, and, as Suu reminded me, sent medics to help the Genin that were after Sasuke as well. It was up to the Genin (and Chunin Shikamaru) for the rest. Whereas they may have failed in retrieving him, eliminating him would have been actually counter-productive. Retrieving Sasuke gave Naruto immense drive, colossal passion to better himself and train and master techniques in order to be able to be strong enough to, not only defeat Akatsuki and protect the village as a ninja as opposed to a weapon, but to be able to complete his final goal of making Sasuke see sense and return him to their beloved village once more.

Not to mention, from a story perspective, it'd throw out half the plot and make the rest seem implausible.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Jul 16, 2011)

You know, I was hoping that this thread would be shorter than Suu's. I would actually read it that way, but it's only slightly shorter, if not the same length. So I'll just say what I said to Suu:



HighLevelPlayer said:


> I didn't read beyond the first post, but +rep for the simple fact that you wasted this much of your life on something you care about. That's passion.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

Surprisingly, it's only a little more than half of what Suu wrote. Some 19k characters, 3k+ words. Despite that, it certainly looks incredibly long.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Jul 16, 2011)

In that case I'll read it.


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## Heli (Jul 16, 2011)

In many ways Tsunade is a great Hokage simply because she's best situated to use her abilities while *in the village.*
She's a defensive Hokage. Aside from being able to shield the village with her slugs, she's of course a medical nin. She can do all of this while fulfilling her Hokage paper-shuffling duties.

This is fairly huge in that offense based kages, basically numbers 1-4, lose some effectiveness by being bound to the village (like the Raikage sitting around in the war room at the moment). The day Minato or Sarutobi became Hokage, they could no longer be used as your average soldiers if there were a war. So they may have been powerhouses but the context in which their power could be used narrowed considerably.

Additionally, Tsunade's defensive power itself is hard to accurately judge. Being the best at her field, she's been able to save people no one else likely could have (e.g., Lee). That's a tremendous marginal value add above the next best replacement. In a way their subsequent feats are part of her defensive abilities.


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## momo313 (Jul 16, 2011)

What's with the analysis? It's a manga lawl. Her character is typical. 

Tsunade is a cool Hokage, no different from any other reknown Hokage. 

And stop being passive aggressive; you keep stating you want to avoid trolls yet you engage with and fuel troll-like behaviour (probably so that you can gloat in the perceived awe of your "analysis").


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

Some people like to understand what they read. And you're right, I won't bother replying to trolls.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 16, 2011)

Xerces said:


> Before Hokage: *Saved by Naruto *
> 
> After Hokage: *Saved by Naruto*
> 
> She still needs saving.



This man right here said all that needed to be said.

People need to make threads like this for good characters like Jiraiya, Orochimaru, hell even Nagato. It never hurts to let people know how strong the strong characters actually are.

Also She made Pain mad, not a good idea.


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## momo313 (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> ...
> Killing people for something as meagre as a distraction is for fun. He couldn't care less. He ruthlessly killed his sensei. He set his summons (including the Centipede one) free, which attacked children. Surely that's part of his "mission", though right? Kill little kids and everyone else just to find one shinobi? That's most definitely not fun.
> 
> ...



Killing people for distraction is killing people for distraction;  Killing people for distraction does not equate to killing people for fun.

And about the kids being killed, you're being silly -- it's a manga -- you're inserting themes and issues that aren't present in this fictional universe.

Edit: 





LegendaryBeauty said:


> Some people like to understand what they read. And you're right, I won't bother replying to trolls.



Point in case; here you go again, for some reason, you simply can't ignore those whom you consider "trolls".


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

Like I said, some are bound not to get it. Prime examples, so thanks.


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## Seph (Jul 16, 2011)

The red font really hurts my eyes, and I don't think I'm the only one who thinks so.



> And about the kids being killed, you're being silly -- it's a manga -- you're inserting themes and issues that aren't present in this fictional universe.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

You can always quote and remove the colour tags for your convenience. Red text is my preference.


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## Mane (Jul 16, 2011)

Brilliant analysis


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## Star★Platinum (Jul 16, 2011)

Hard to take your thread seriously when the first 'posts' and i use quotes for a reason, as it's hard to call them such, Are you 'threatening' action against people expressing their opinion negatively (which is allowed) of your favourite character in a manga..

Shame, since it's well written and well fleshed out.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

Do point out where I issued threats to people who disagreed. If you'd notice, I'd entertained their arguments regardless of its content.


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## Star★Platinum (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Do point out where I issued threats to people who disagreed. If you'd notice, I'd entertained their arguments regardless of its content.





LegendaryBeauty said:


> Please provide any evidence of a direct correlation of what you said has _anything_ to do with the thread. Her disrespecting her sensei or not physically fighting Pain does not mean she's not a great Hokage. If you're going to argue some points, at least put some effort into it.
> 
> I appreciate your attempts to derail the thread and demean Tsunade, but if you do not cease your efforts, you shall be dealt with swiftly. You have been warned.



Threatened for 'demeaning' a fictional character?
You're most welcome.
Also, calling people 'trolls' for, as mentioned, not agreeing with your thread or (overly heightened) Opinion of Tsunade is a little overboard, if you truly think of them as trolls, ignore 'em.

Anyway, as i said nice thread, i respect anyone who can put in as much time and detail into a character. Even if i disagree on some aspects,  Konoha would have been screwed if she hadn't aided in the healing.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

X Itachi X said:


> Threatened for 'demeaning' a fictional character?
> You're most welcome.
> Also, calling people 'trolls' for, as mentioned, not agreeing with your thread or (overly heightened) Opinion of Tsunade is a little overboard, if you truly think of them as trolls, ignore 'em.
> 
> Anyway, as i said nice thread, i respect anyone who can put in as much time and detail into a character. Even if i disagree on some aspects,  Konoha would have been screwed if she hadn't aided in the healing.



There are multiple people who disagreed but were not referred to as trolls. When one says she did absolutely nothing, her accomplishments amounted to nothing, and that weaker ninja could best her, yes, I'm going to refer to them as trolls. Wouldn't you?

AKmyWaffle and Namikaze Minato have a history of bashing Tsunade. Regardless, I addressed each and every one of their concerns, regardless of how ridiculous it became.


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## Heli (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> There are multiple people who disagreed but were not referred to as trolls. When one says she did absolutely nothing, her accomplishments amounted to nothing, and that weaker ninja could best her, yes, I'm going to refer to them as trolls. Wouldn't you?
> 
> AKmyWaffle and Namikaze Minato have a history of bashing Tsunade. Regardless, I addressed each and every one of their concerns, regardless of how ridiculous it became.



I will say Legendary Beauty, you take Tsunade a bit too personally. As I've said earlier in this thread, I view Tsunade as a great Hokage. Perhaps even the best Hokage because her abilities are so complementary to staying at home base and keeping things going. In fact if I had Shodai, Nidaime, Sandaime, Yondaime and Godaime all alive at the same time, I'd likely choose her as Hokage. The rest are better on the front lines and she's better at D and keeping people alive. That should be the only justification you need. There'll always be haters.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

Heli said:


> I will say Legendary Beauty, you take Tsunade a bit too personally. As I've said earlier in this thread, I view Tsunade as a great Hokage. Perhaps even the best Hokage because her abilities are so complementary to staying at home base and keeping things going. In fact if I had Shodai, Nidaime, Sandaime, Yondaime and Godaime all alive at the same time, I'd likely choose her as Hokage. The rest are better on the front lines and she's better at D and keeping people alive. That should be the only justification you need. There'll always be haters.



I'm not doing this just to disprove the haters. That would be an exercise in futility. I'm doing this to shed light on those who weren't too sure on where she stood as a Hokage, were on the fence or had no real opinion in the first place. An example would be Tempest's post, saying that the thread created a whole new perspective for them. I also like to logically point out why I'm of an opinion, as opposed to just throwing down one and leaving it at that.

When one's favourite character gets flack for whatever s/he does, regardless of its importance or success, it's not unheard of for the fan to dedicate time to clarify why they perceive such notions unjustified.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> There are multiple people who disagreed but were not referred to as trolls. When one says she did absolutely nothing, her accomplishments amounted to nothing, and that weaker ninja could best her, yes, I'm going to refer to them as trolls. Wouldn't you?
> 
> AKmyWaffle and Namikaze Minato have a history of bashing Tsunade. Regardless, I addressed each and every one of their concerns, regardless of how ridiculous it became.



No matter how logical or accurate our assessments of Tsuanade are there is no reason to take them personally. Nor is there a reason to threaten us or attack us personally. 

Nobody is saying that Tsunade has done nothing, we have pointed out a great number of mistakes and blunders she has committed over the years. In fact she is the only Hokage who has ever allowed Konoha to be destroyed. Yet you keep going on and on about how great she is, aren't you taking things a little bit over the top?

Why don't you put your efforts towards hyping Kushina? A real Kunoichi who doesn't use illusions to look like a big breasted bimbo. (I'm using the word 'bimbo' here because I can't find a better word to describe Tsunade's appearance, not to offend you.)


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Why don't you put your efforts towards hyping Kushina? A real Kunoichi who doesn't use illusions to look like a big breasted bimbo.



Hyping Kushina? Madara raped her, then she died.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

I was not going to attack you. The moderators would have dealt with it.

Now, you've made it quite clear your opinion on Tsunade is now that she's not even a real kunoichi. You also forget the damage and destruction that happened during Minato and Hiruzen's reigns, not to mention Hashirama's. But yes, let's ignore them because a non-real kunoichi was chosen to be Hokage.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Hyping Kushina? Madara raped her, then she died.



Yeah but I like her character, better than Tsunade's or Naruto's despite them being similar. They are all stupid (To a degree) and loudmouthed yet Kushina seems to be far more mature than the others. 

Aside from that Naruto mentions that his goal is to become stronger then Kushina after he had already surpassed Minato. 
Link removed


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Yeah but *I like her character*, better than Tsunade's or Naruto's despite them being similar. They are all stupid (To a degree) and loudmouthed yet Kushina seems to be far more mature than the others.
> 
> Aside from that Naruto mentions that his goal is to become stronger then Kushina after he had already surpassed Minato.
> Link removed



Then that's a different story. Don't see a problem with preferring one character over another.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I was not going to attack you. The moderators would have dealt with it.
> 
> Now, you've made it quite clear your opinion on Tsunade is now that she's not even a real kunoichi. You also forget the damage and destruction that happened during Minato and Hiruzen's reigns, not to mention Hashirama's. But yes, let's ignore them because a non-real kunoichi was chosen to be Hokage.



When did I ever say that she isn't a real Kunoichi? She is the Naruto world's most respected Kunoichi. 

And the damage to Konoha which occurred during Hashirama's, Minato's, and Hiruzen's time completely pales in comparison to the destruction of the village which Tsunade caused.


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## Maerala (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> When did I ever say that she isn't a real Kunoichi? She is the Naruto world's most respected Kunoichi.
> 
> And the damage to Konoha which occurred during Hashirama's, Minato's, and Hiruzen's time completely pales in comparison to the destruction of the village which Tsunade caused.



In the same way that the previous attackers pale in comparison to Pain.


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## Heli (Jul 16, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Hyping Kushina? Madara raped her, then she died.



She put a barrier around a fully powered Kyuubi *after giving birth and while dying*. On top of that she was confident that she could pull the kyuubi back in before dying. That's pretty badass.
I'll give her props for that.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> In the same way that the previous attackers pale in comparison to Pain.



Not really, Pain kind of pales in comparison to the other attackers. 

Prime Madara + Kyuubi would shit on Pain.
Tobi + Kyuubi would shit on Pain. 
Orochimaru + Edo Hashirama + Edo Tobirama would also shit on Pain. 

And the main reason why I say this is because Pain couldn't handle less then half the Kyuubi.


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## Star★Platinum (Jul 16, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> In the same way that the previous attackers pale in comparison to Pain.



Schooled..


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## Distance (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Why don't you put your efforts towards hyping Kushina? *A real Kunoichi who doesn't use illusions to look like a big breasted bimbo.*






> Tsunade of the Sannin possesses a more advanced version of the Transformation Technique, where she disguises her 50-year-old self as younger versions of herself. Her technique is unique as it seems to be permanent, nor does she need to exert herself to maintain it for a long time, whereas a normal transformation would be dispelled when the user is injured. This implies that the form is a physical transformation and that it only breaks when Tsunade is low on chakra.



*She threw plastic surgery out the window, and this is the respect you give her*!


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 16, 2011)

Heli said:


> She put a barrier around a fully powered Kyuubi *after giving birth and while dying*. On top of that she was confident that she could pull the kyuubi back in before dying. That's pretty badass.
> I'll give her props for that.



I suppose.

It's just that upon becoming the wife of Minato, she was overshadowed immensely. Thus anything she does is bound to appear insubstantial in front of the "Yellow Flash."


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

Perhaps when you said I should dedicate such effort to _real_ kunoichi like Kushina? Seriously, you know precisely what you said and what I'm referring to. Stop acting ignorant.


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## Heli (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Not really, Pain kind of pales in comparison to the other attackers.
> 
> Prime Madara + Kyuubi would shit on Pain.
> Tobi + Kyuubi would shit on Pain.
> ...



Will disagree with that last part. Pain can suck out souls so ET itself isn't a hindrance. Hashirama is strong but is without his bijuus. Tobirama doesn't have the prep to have ET up.
In fact edo tensei or not, Chibaku Tensei probably owns the lot of them. One way to stop an ET zombie is to incapacitate them. What better way than a mini blackhole?


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## Akahime (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> When did I ever say that she isn't a real Kunoichi? She is the Naruto world's most respected Kunoichi.
> 
> And the damage to Konoha which occurred during Hashirama's, Minato's, and Hiruzen's time completely pales in comparison to the destruction of the village which Tsunade *caused*.



What is this I don't even....


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

Distance said:


> *She threw plastic surgery out the window, and this is the respect you give her*!



Sorry but I can't really respect a person who needs to give themselves tits bigger than their own head. I'm fine with her looking young, and while I am a big fan of breasts in general I do not think 'huge fake jugs' are a great quality in a leader.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

Heli said:


> Will disagree with that last part. Pain can suck out souls so ET itself isn't a hindrance. Hashirama is strong but is without his bijuus. Tobirama doesn't have the prep to have ET up.
> In fact edo tensei or not, Chibaku Tensei probably owns the lot of them. One way to stop an ET zombie is to incapacitate them. What better way than a mini blackhole?



We can disagree on the last part and I will address it later, but can we at least agree that Tobi/Madara + 100% Kyuubi > Pain?


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## sinjin long (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sorry but I can't really respect a person who needs to give themselves tits bigger than their own head. I'm fine with her looking young, and while I am a big fan of breasts in general I do not think 'huge fake jugs' are a great quality in a leader.



Huge fake jugs,have no bearing bearing on whether one is a great leader or not,but i sure as hell appreciate them!!!!!


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## Akahime (Jul 16, 2011)

Who says her breasts are also changed(aside in a younger shape, but I mean size wise)? When she was young with Nawaki she already had pretty big boobs.


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## Distance (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> *Sorry but I can't really respect a person who needs to give themselves tits bigger than their own head.* I'm fine with her looking young, and while I am a big fan of breasts in general I do not think 'huge fake jugs' are a great quality in a leader.




*Spoiler*: __ 








She always had big jugs! She just doesn't want them to sag you know, she's pushing her late 50's for god's sake! A porn stars got to do what a porn stars got to do.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> Huge fake jugs,have no bearing bearing on whether one is a great leader or not,but i sure as hell appreciate them!!!!!



I'm not saying that they are bad or anything. But when it comes to a military leader massive amounts of fake cleavage are not expected. 

You don't know if she is there to actually lead of suck off the pizza boy.


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## Summers (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I'm not saying that they are bad or anything. But when it comes to a military leader massive amounts of fake cleavage are not expected.
> 
> You don't know if she is there to actually lead of suck off the pizza boy.



............


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## Seph (Jul 16, 2011)

Man, this thread is hilarious.


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## C-Moon (Jul 16, 2011)

> I'm not saying that they are bad or anything. But when it comes to a military leader massive amounts of fake cleavage are not expected.
> 
> You don't know if she is there to actually lead of suck off the pizza boy.


Shut the fuck up already Sarutobi_Sasuke.


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## Mane (Jul 16, 2011)

Happy days


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## Summers (Jul 16, 2011)

Gamma Akutabi said:


> Shut the fuck up already Sarutobi_Sasuke



Why you keep calling him that? You keep calling people by different names?


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## principito (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Perhaps when you said I should dedicate such effort to _real_ kunoichi like Kushina? Seriously, you know precisely what you said and what I'm referring to. Stop acting ignorant.




I must say ur writing skills are very good. 

But other than that I've seen this kind of threads from you before... same things different angle... same conclusion from you.

the thing is that no matter how you spin it, Tsunade is a medic in charge of an army. My opinion is that a fighter should be in charge of an army.

Whatever the reasons, she's the weakest kage in the manga at this moment. Wiser than some? maybe, more reputation? maybe, but weakest when it comes to fighting skills. 

She hasnt had a proper fight? well, people have been waiting for one since i dont know how many years now. And the sannin fight was not a proper fight... if that is the foundation of any argument that says she's a good fighter I say that's a weak argument at best.

I think you are clinging to straws to deny the obvious.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

This essay has absolutely nothing to do with her from a combat standpoint, nor a medical standpoint. Your views on that are irrelevant, as they weren't expressed nor the intent of this thread. I'm speaking strictly from a leadership perspective. Her status as a medic does not automaticaly disqualify her from being a good leader, regardless of your opinion.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> This essay has absolutely nothing to do with her from a combat standpoint, nor a medical standpoint. Your views on that are irrelevant, as they weren't expressed nor the intent of this thread. I'm speaking strictly from a leadership perspective. Her status as a medic does not automaticaly disqualify her from being a good leader, regardless of your opinion.



+ reps. Like Shuu's essay yours is also top notch

Also, it takes time for your stuff to sink in with most posters. 75% of NF is obsessed with characters displaying new jutsus, who beating who in fictional battledome threads, they actually fail to see the true powerhouse shinobis based on other aspects then jutsus vs jutsus clash

Just look at the current hype train: Yondaime Kazekage. Based on last chapters, the dude is basically Gaara and yet threads are popping up how powerfull he is and how Orochimaru could have never beaten him without ET. Yet nobody before believed Gaara would stand a chance against Orochimaru (and rightfully so) but somehow another dude who recently got introduced and has the same fighting style as Gaara except with shiny Sand is suddenly on Orochimaru's tier....


When Tsunade gets her all-out battle and her hype-train takes of, I suggest you bump this thread.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

Hopefully it won't be considered necroing by then.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 16, 2011)

Better make friends with a mod then who can revive your shizzle


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

I've got connections, you needn't worry.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 16, 2011)

Excellent essay LB. Been a while since I had a reading such as this one.

I liked the following points:


Jiraiya's reasons for reccomending Tsunade as Hokage and how you showed he of all people wouldn't waste his time searching for someone "unfit" for the title, even less when the village was recovering from the sudden war that it held against Oto and Suna and was in a very delicate situation. Fact that Ero-Sennin kept bringing back how she is still the most classified for the job only helps to prove right your point (not sure if Kakashi mentioned it when she woke up from her coma, but the idea has been proven).


The fact that the aid that came from Suna during Sasuke Retrieval arc was a result of Tsunade's negotiations with the sand village and that with it, Konoha re-established its previous amicable terms with the Suna shinobis, re-gaining an ally. You linking that page from the manga helped in strenghtening your point. Little privotal details like this one tend to be easily forgotten.


I liked the "Exterminating Akatsuki" point, it was very well organized and accurate when you name the Akatsuki members that were taken down by Konoha shinobis under Tsunade's reign (you could also name Kisame as another triumph credited to Konoha, who was defeated by Maito Gai in the previous arc to this one) and finally, Gaara's statement about how Tsunade was the only Kage that ordered his ninjas to go and help Suna in his retrieval while the other ones didn't is an important part. Tells that Gaara, as Kazekage and as the face of Sunagakure, holds her in high regard.

I also would like to mention the part about how thanks to her tutelage Sakura was able to support Chiyo against her grandson (and also save Kankurou's life by developing the medicine to Sasori's poison, something only Tsunade could've taught her how to do it) and that Chiyo wasn't surprised that Sakura was that reliable, all thanks to the training Tsunade made her pupil go through during the time-skip. 

Maybe the best part you did was talking about her involvement in the Pain arc and her reasoning for bringing Naruto back to fight the pseudo-Akatsuki leader. Very good there.

Heck, I give Tsunade another merit: thanks to her skills as a medic Konoha can still count with Rock Lee's services to the village at any moment. Without her, Lee's ninja career would've ended and he wouldn't even be here fighting in the current war arc. And we all know how beastly Lee can bee, having his carrer end at Part I would have been terrible, for him & the village's interests. But that wasn't happening with the new Godaime Hokage.

Reps+.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

If you guys were so pleased with my essay, there's always the  nomination thread.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> This essay has absolutely nothing to do with her from a combat standpoint, nor a medical standpoint. Your views on that are irrelevant, as they weren't expressed nor the intent of this thread. I'm speaking strictly from a leadership perspective. Her status as a medic does not automaticaly disqualify her from being a good leader, regardless of your opinion.



Her lack of leadership ability disqualifies her from being a good leader. As can be seen by her issuing only a single order during the Pain invasion begging for Naruto's return so that he could take care of Pain.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Her lack of leadership ability disqualifies her from being a good leader. As can be seen by her issuing only a single order during the Pain invasion begging for Naruto's return so that he could take care of Pain.



Yes, let's ignore her ensuring the safety of a majority of villagers and tasking people with protection to find out Pain's secret and stall until the strongest person who had a chance could come back. There's no other indication of her leading them otherwise, so let's troll and say she only asked for Naruto to come back and sit and did about as much as Danzou during the Invasion.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Yes, let's ignore her ensuring the safety of a majority of villagers and tasking people with protection to find out Pain's secret and stall until the strongest person who had a chance could come back. There's no other indication of her leading them otherwise, so let's troll and say she only asked for Naruto to come back and sit and did about as much as Danzou during the Invasion.



Are you even reading what you're saying?

Do you honestly think that's nearly enough? Tsunade literally had thousands of shinobi depending on her orders and all she does is order Naruto's return and an ANBU squad to escort Shizune to the interrogation department while thousands are slaughtered by Pain. 

You do understand that Tsunade did not save a high number of Shinobi, all the shinobi who were dealt fatal wounds died. That's why it was important for Naruto to turn Nagato into an ally and save Konoha from the path of destruction Tsunade had placed it on.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

Alright, let's see what you would've done in her place. What orders would you have given? Do tell.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Alright, let's see what you would've done in her place. What orders would you have given? Do tell.



I do not have the information that is available to her, so let's not enter the realm of what I would have done. Instead let us take a leaf out of Hiruzen's notebook. 

this
this
1. Be prepared for battle within seconds of the attack. Order a general evacuation of the civilians. 
this
2. Rally a counter attack and lead the attack against the enemy. While waiting the the village's strongest shinobi.
this
3. Kick the enemy's ass out of the village.
this
4. Assure the safety of the next generation. 
Link removed
Link removed
5. Continue to lead until the enemy is defeated. 


But I guess the most important thing would have to be to actually lead the shinobi instead of sitting on your ass while they die due to a lack of leadership.


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## Heli (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> We can disagree on the last part and I will address it later, but can we at least agree that Tobi/Madara + 100% Kyuubi > Pain?



Yeah I buy that. I think Pain with or without his secret would be owned by Tobi + Kyuubi. Too much firepower + Tobi's intangibility.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

Heli said:


> Yeah I buy that. I think Pain with or without his secret would be owned by Tobi + Kyuubi. Too much firepower + Tobi's intangibility.



So then that only leaves Oro and the Edo Kages. Allow me to remind you that Nagato had trouble with Jiraiya, so why do you think that he could take on Oro and two Kages? After all Hashirama on his own is no pushover and as an Edo Tensai he is immortal, how is Nagato suppose to stop him?

While human realm's soul rip is nice it has never been effectively used against a strong opponent so let's assume that's out of the question when it comes to the Edo Kages unless they are restrained.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I do not have the information that is available to her, so let's not enter the realm of what I would have done. Instead let us take a leaf out of Hiruzen's notebook.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 1. Be prepared for battle within seconds of the attack. Order a general evacuation of the civilians.



There would be no point in her needlessly being slaughtered if she fought Pain, which would've made the situation worse. Instead, she called back the only person capable of defeating Pain. She did, also, order an emergency alert and the shinobi were being evacuated.

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed




> Link removed
> 2. Rally a counter attack and lead the attack against the enemy. While waiting the the village's strongest shinobi.



She trusted the Jounin to lead the counter-attack, i.e. Kakashi, Chouza, etc, and find out any information about the opponent. Tsunade also instructed for the investigation of Pain's true identity and powers. She would protect everyone and keep casualties to a minimum while waiting for Naruto's return.

Link removed
Link removed - "I will protect the village no matter what!", not "I will sit on my ass no matter what!"



> Link removed
> 3. Kick the enemy's ass out of the village.



That was everyone driving it out of the village, not the previous Hokage, if that's what you're getting at. And how do you expect her to drive out seven opponents all over Konoha efficiently, while preventing the others from simply returning to cause mayham? This wasn't one, large target. It was seven, six paths and Konan.



> Link removed
> 4. Assure the safety of the next generation.



That's kind of what healing and protecting everyone from certain death was for...

Link removed



> Link removed
> Link removed
> 5. Continue to lead until the enemy is defeated.



She continued to lead until she put her life on the line for the village and was comatose.

You can't lead while comatose.



> But I guess the most important thing would have to be to actually lead the shinobi instead of sitting on your ass while they die due to a lack of leadership.



You still fail to comprehend anything because of your raging hatred for women. Consider this your final reply. If you're not getting it by now, you're just not getting it. And I doubt you even were open to persuasion in the first place, given your history.


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## Heli (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> So then that only leaves Oro and the Edo Kages. Allow me to remind you that Nagato had trouble with Jiraiya, so why do you think that he could take on Oro and two Kages? After all Hashirama on his own is no pushover and as an Edo Tensai he is immortal, how is Nagato suppose to stop him?
> 
> While human realm's soul rip is nice it has never been effectively used against a strong opponent so let's assume that's out of the question when it comes to the Edo Kages unless they are restrained.



I think where we differ here is that I don't think Pain had trouble with Jiraiya. Jiraiya only got the 3 kill because of one of the most broken abilities in the series, Frog Song. This is an ability so broken it's never been allowed to be used again. Even then against all 6 the j-man was SOL. 
Oro from feats has nothing like frog song.

As I said earlier, the immortal nature of ET is not a major issue to Pain. Bansho Tennin + Soul Rip can handle most of it. 

The key point however is how does Oro+ET handle CT? I see no way. It took 8 tails Kyuubi to bust out. Oro and company get imprisoned right then and there.

Finally, Oro needed an army to invade Konoha. Pain did it solo. That's pretty impressive.


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## Summers (Jul 16, 2011)

Now facts and Cannon are being ignored. She not leading despite leading? 

She is standing by as Shinobi die despite her attaching her slugs and using her chakra to the point of becoming comatose to heal and shield all the villagers? 

She doesn't evacuate civilians despite us seeing that civilians are being evacuated.

She doesn't prepare, ignoring that there is a barrier and a quick response team?

There was no counter attack but even though 
Inzuka confront Hungry ghost, Kakashi confronts deva, Bug clan confronts konan, Anbu fight animal path, Konohamaru even confronts Naraka?

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with leadership style or not like a character.If ya prefer she fight pain one and one, ignoring the other 5 rampaging through the village instead of having her slugs protect and heal everyone fine, but lets not pretend she didn't do what she did. 

She lead and protected the village people against a ridiculously powerful opponent who ends civil wars by himself. She had faith in Naruto while advisers did not, and the result, was that nobody died. Building got leveled and they rebuilt.

But ya cant argue convince someone who calls her a bimbo.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> You still fail to comprehend anything because of your raging hatred for women. Consider this your final reply. If you're not getting it by now, you're just not getting it. And I doubt you even were open to persuasion in the first place, given your history.



Kushina is one of my favorite characters in Naruto, I hold no ill feelings towards any particular sex. I don't see how you can make such an insulting statement based on my assessment of Tsunade's effectiveness as a leader. 

As far as effective leaders go Balalaika from Black Lagoon is one of my favorite leader type characters while Revy is one of my favorite characters. But that's because they aren't damsels in distress who can only wait for a hero to come rescue them.

But aside from the personal attacks which you seem to be fond of making... The bottom line is that Tsunade was not taking an active role as the leader of Konoha during Pain's invasion. Because of this the shinobi were no organized and because of their lack of organization they were slaughtered. 

You pointed out that unlike Kyuubi Pain was made up of 6 bodies as well as Konan. Well, so what? Use sensors to find the bodies and use the intel Jiraiya had gathered to send out the appropriate shinobi to challenge each of the enemies. Use the sensors to keep an eye on the situation and send reinforcements when they are needed.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

When you quite clearly reference in the past her supposed sleeping with men to pay off her gambling debts, and correlate her having large breasts with not being a leader but "sucking off the pizza boy", you don't exactly portray an unbiased, non-sexist imagery and mentality.

It was a mistake removing you from my ignore-list a while ago. Congratulations. You're back on the elite squad, home to a select few.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

summers said:


> Now facts and Cannon are being ignored. She not leading despite leading?
> 
> She is standing by as Shinobi die despite her attaching her slugs and using her chakra to the point of becoming comatose to heal and shield all the villagers?
> 
> ...



As far as leading goes our definition of leadership my vary greatly, because from what I saw Tsunade sat on her ass and healed people while being protected by ANBU. That's not leading, that's healing.

And when did I claim she didn't do those things? Well actually the barrier she didn't prepare, that has been around since Hiruzen's time.


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## Summers (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> When you quite clearly reference in the past her supposed sleeping with men to pay off her gambling debts, and correlate her having large breasts with not being a leader but "sucking off the pizza boy", you don't exactly portray an unbiased, non-sexist imagery and mentality.
> 
> It was a mistake removing you from my ignore-list a while ago. Congratulations. You're back on the elite squad, home to a select few.



You remembered that eh. I did too they stood out, that's what shock does eh?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> When you quite clearly reference in the past her supposed sleeping with men to pay off her gambling debts, and correlate her having large breasts with not being a leader but "sucking off the pizza boy", you don't exactly portray an unbiased, non-sexist imagery and mentality.
> 
> It was a mistake removing you from my ignore-list a while ago. Congratulations. You're back on the elite squad, home to a select few.



You're taking jokes out of context. I'm not trying to argue that Tsunade sucks off any pizza boys in order to pay off any gambling debts. And while I will admit that Tsunade is a rather capable medic who has the potential of supporting Konoha in a variety of ways, she is not a good leader. 

Again, let me make this clear. I am not trying to claim that Tsunade's fun bags are used for the purpose of monetary gain, nor am I trying to claim that Tsunade is a whore in any way shape or form. However I do think her choice of appearance is not suitable for the position she occupies.

And as you like to say, I will take this as a concession.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 16, 2011)

summers said:


> You remembered that eh. I did too they stood out, that's what shock does eh?



That's what desperate ignorance does. If you make wild and outlandish claims in an effort to bash a character, people are going to remember and you are going to lose all credibility from there on. Especially if you ignore manga evidence and skew the manga to your fanciful notions.


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## Summers (Jul 16, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> As far as leading goes our definition of leadership my vary greatly, because from what I saw Tsunade sat on her ass and healed people while being protected by ANBU. That's not leading, that's healing.
> 
> And when did I claim she didn't do those things? Well actually the barrier she didn't prepare, that has been around since Hiruzen's time.





AKmyWaffle said:


> You're taking jokes out of context. I'm not trying to argue that Tsunade sucks off any pizza boys in order to pay off any gambling debts. And while I will admit that Tsunade is a rather capable medic who has the potential of supporting Konoha in a variety of ways, she is not a good leader.
> 
> Again, let me make this clear. I am not trying to claim that Tsunade's fun bags are used for the purpose of monetary gain, nor am I trying to claim that Tsunade is a whore in any way shape or form.* However I do think her choice of appearance is not suitable for the position she occupies.*
> 
> And as you like to say, I will take this as a concession.



Those are examples of her leading.
And like i said before


> If ya prefer she fight pain one and one, ignoring the other 5 rampaging through the village instead of having her slugs protect and heal everyone fine.


She could have forgoes the healing and fought pain instead it may look good but she knew better, people were being killed and she could heal and shield ALL of them. 

I think the best evidence of her leadership is her positions, the way it works is that the council nominates, the the lords pick, the Jonin ratify. Kakashi was up for hokage but tsunade woke up and she regained her position. Everyone was happy that she was back and well, crying for her. And even the A kage Mei was glad she was back, after that spectacle with Danzo. Tsunade is a loved hokage who has the faith of her people and She has faith in them.

*Couldn't have left that out when defending yourself?*


Well I have to say LB your thread was a success, sure there is one hold out and some folks who didn't read it, or ignored what was read,but that was predicted and sadly expected. Oh and CrazyAries nominated you for thread of the month, congrats your up against Suu with another Tsu thread.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

summers said:


> Those are examples of her leading.



Well if "her leading" cannot be considered to actually be leading than it is not leading is it? It is healing...



> And like i said before
> 
> She could have forgoes the healing and fought pain instead it may look good but she knew better, people were being killed and she could heal and shield ALL of them.



I'm not suggestion that she should have attack Pain head on. A leader in the military is suppose to bring a degree of organization to the soldiers. But not only did she not organize her soldiers she also left the position completely vacant which is the reason why the leafs were slaughtered, because there was absolutely nobody leading them while the enemy on the other hand was completely organized. 



> I think the best evidence of her leadership is her positions, the way it works is that the council nominates, the the lords pick, the Jonin ratify. Kakashi was up for hokage but tsunade woke up and she regained her position. Everyone was happy that she was back and well, crying for her. And even the A kage Mei was glad she was back, after that spectacle with Danzo. Tsunade is a loved hokage who has the faith of her people and She has faith in them.



It is nice that she is back and all, but have you noticed how Kakashi is actually leading shinobi while Tsunade has done absolutely nothing thus far in this war?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

tsunadefan said:


> what is the point of bringing up the past xerces? and u brought up the pic of when she was drunk and would have said anything while intoxicated...



Do you really want to bring up her drinking problem while discussing her ability to lead?


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## AllThisPower (Jul 16, 2011)

Tsunade is amazing because all the jounin recognize her. If she was weak or was not worthy she would not recognized.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 16, 2011)

AllThisPower said:


> Tsunade is amazing because all the jounin recognize her. If she was weak or was not worthy she would not recognized.



Is that really all it takes to be worthy of the Hokage title? In comparison to the accomplishments of the other kages that much alone isn't worth much now is it?


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## spiritmight (Jul 17, 2011)

I think Tsunade has nice titties and doesn't afraid of anything


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Is that really all it takes to be worthy of the Hokage title? In comparison to the accomplishments of the other kages that much alone isn't worth much now is it?



What accomplishments have the other Hokages made?

If they made any, there were far in between.


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## Chaos Hokage (Jul 17, 2011)

Good essay! However, Tsunade could be a cooler Hokage if we see her in more major battles.


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## Seph (Jul 17, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> What accomplishments have the other Hokages made?
> 
> If they made any, there were far in between.



Jesus fucking Christ, now you're just trying to make Tsunade seem like a goddess. You're being completely biased without a shred of logic.


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

Not really. 

They made accomplishments, but they don't have as many as her.

Tsunade has many more accomplishments than the third, the second, and the first Hokages.


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## Seph (Jul 17, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> Not really.
> 
> They made accomplishments, but they don't have as many as her.
> 
> Tsunade has many more accomplishments than the third, the second, and the first Hokages.



Maybe because, uh, we've had Tsunade as a Hokage for 400 chapters? Maybe because we've only had the Third as a Hokage for 100 chapters while no events were going on (other than Orochimaru)? Maybe because we haven't seen the First and the Second ever in the position?


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

But that still proves my point that she has more accomplishments. Even before she was there for that long, she still had many more accomplishments than old Hiruzen and the other Hokages. She even has more accomplishments than Minato.

Don't get accomplishments mixed up with feats


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm starting to wonder if the two people with stick-figure avatars are dupes. Hm.

At any rate, I already responded to him. Like it or not, she was Hokage at the time. Feel free to baw elsewhere, however.


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

principito said:


> OP see the difference?
> MAYBE she did her BEST with what she did..... but it still was a mess....
> 
> so the thing is she shouldnt have been there in the first place!



What is with you people and having a battle leading Hokage. Where does it say in a Hokage's description that they have to be that? Their job is to protect the village and that is what Tsunade did.


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## principito (Jul 17, 2011)

to compare leaderships... tou should see what its actually going on...

Take a look at Tsunades face..terrified during Pain attack.... screaming left and right..

Take a look at Minato's when he stared down at kyuubi....

Leadership requires thinking... thinking requires peace in ur head.... and some offensive jutsus to actually do something about it


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

First she was furious and baited Pain into attacking Konoha. Now she was terrified.

Lol.

Point out in the manga where it said leadership requires offensive jutsu. Please, enlighten me.


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## principito (Jul 17, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I'm starting to wonder if the two people with stick-figure avatars are dupes. Hm.
> 
> At any rate, I already responded to him. Like it or not, she was Hokage at the time. Feel free to baw elsewhere, however.



I'm starting to worry about some users that might actually have a thing for fictional characters that cant stand an opinion hmmm



Fireworks said:


> What is with you people and having a battle leading Hokage. Where does it say in a Hokage's description that they have to be that? Their job is to protect the village and that is what Tsunade did.



Naruto protected the village....

if he didnt arrive... the villagers would have died.... Pain revived everybody he killed... so Tsunades "effort" while gallant, was not enough and meaningless in the end


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

principito said:


> to compare leaderships... tou should see what its actually going on...
> 
> Take a look at Tsunades face..terrified during Pain attack.... screaming left and right..
> 
> ...



 Terrified?

She's the one to tell him to "fuck off"

May I say the only character to do so 

Seriously though, she wasn't terrified. And if you're getting confused, it was probably worried. That likely the thing you saw and that wasn't because she was afraid of Pain. It was because of the villagers' conditions and that only made her work even harder.


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## principito (Jul 17, 2011)

manga never says that offensive jutsu ios required to lead... nor medic jutsu nor anything..

but appearently everybody in the manga decides to name the army leader a great warrior.....

I think Tsunade was just a second hand dish since the first option turned down the position


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 17, 2011)

principito said:


> to compare leaderships... tou should see what its actually going on...
> 
> Take a look at Tsunades face..terrified during Pain attack.... screaming left and right..
> 
> ...



What...the...?

So to be a great leader, all you have to do is put on a brave face even though you're quaking with fear inside? 

In that case, refer yourself to Minato's agitation, the result of Madara speaking a few ominous words.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

principito said:


> to compare leaderships... tou should see what its actually going on...
> 
> Take a look at Tsunades face..terrified during Pain attack.... screaming left and right..
> 
> ...



Still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is.


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

principito said:


> I'm starting to worry about some users that might actually have a thing for fictional characters that cant stand an opinion hmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What are you talking about if he hadn't arrived? Have you even read those chapters? It was over by the time he got there and Tsunade had protected them anyway

Get this straight. Tsunade protected the village. Naruto defeated the enemy.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

principito said:


> manga never says that offensive jutsu ios required to lead... nor medic jutsu nor anything..
> 
> but appearently everybody in the manga decides to name the army leader a great warrior.....
> 
> I think Tsunade was just a second hand dish since the first option turned down the position



Exactly. The manga NEVER said it. YOU said it. So prove it.

The first option said he was not as good as her. He backed it up with evidence. The councillors also agreed.

I think you're confusing your opinion for fact. Not surprised in the slightest.


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## Yuna (Jul 17, 2011)

Xerces said:


> Before Hokage: *Saved by Naruto *
> 
> After Hokage: *Saved by Naruto*
> 
> She still needs saving.


Naruto didn't save diddly during the Sannin fight. Orochimaru and Kabuto never intended to kill her. Orochimaru even stated this after Tsunade *saved Naruto* by shielding him with her body. He said that out of all of the people on the battlefield, Tsunade was the only person he was planning on leaving alive, even after he initial betrayal.

In fact, Kabuto wasn't going in for a lethal hit when Naruto jumped into the fray and "saved Tsunade". And in the end, Tsunade saved Naruto more than Naruto saved her. Naruto shielded Tsunade from Kabuto, what, poking her? Tsunade shielded Naruto from Orochimaru turning Naruto into a pincushion and then healed the internal wounds Kabuto had inflicted upon Naruto.




Namikaze Minato said:


> like OP said , Hokage is supposed to bring stability to the village , Kushina lost her family , her clan , everyone she ever loved until she met Minato , did she do half the mess that Tsunade did?


Kushina became known as the Hot Habanero or whatever, prone to fits of rage where she'd beat people senseless (implied).



Namikaze Minato said:


> For the Hokage position that needs someone stable mentally , Tsunade doesnt seem so stable if she lost 2 ppl and shes acting like this?


Because if you drink and gamble, that must mean you're mentally unstable? It is impossible to do either or both without being mentally unstable?

Seriously, what's the logic here? Tsunade just chose to *stop being a Shinobi*. That's it. She'd had enough of the bloodshed. It was her choice. It doesn't mean she was mentally unstable. Neither does drinking (which Jiraiya did as well, as do many Konoha Shinobi, such as Shukaku) no gambling.



Namikaze Minato said:


> Tsunade could've made a temporary deal with Danzo and ANBU Root , hell if i was Hokage at the time i'd offer Danzo a temporary deal , for example appointing one of his men as Jounin Commander instead of Shikaku , it's not a great call but it would save the lives and the infrastructure of the village in case a village decided to invade after the Pain incident.


Yes, let's blame Tsunade for not being *psychic* and knowing that Danzou and his men would *betray the village* in a show of dereliction of duty should an attack  on the village be made.

Hiruzen and Minato didn't make a deal with Danzou either. Shame on them, I guess!



Namikaze Minato said:


> Tsunade did a OK job but she had better options that she didnt explore and the result is that Konoha is now completely destroyed.


Yes, because Danzou's men being on the ground would've totally been able to negate Chou Shinra Tensei! Because they all have Kamui or some shit! And Pain wouldn't just have returned with a new Deva Path had the village been able to kill the first one!

I stopped reading after this post because, clearly, the anti-Tsunade brigade have nothing of merit in their arguments. Yes, let's blame Tsunade for not being *psychic*.


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## principito (Jul 17, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Exactly. The manga NEVER said it. YOU said it. So prove it.
> 
> The first option said he was not as good as her. He backed it up with evidence. The councillors also agreed.
> 
> I think you're confusing your opinion for fact. Not surprised in the slightest.



Every village in the manga has and had kages who were not medics.... at least that we know off....

Konoha makes the first attempt.... and its a crater now....

I dont need to post the evidence of this.... there are 500+ chapters that show it... its the manga itself u know


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## silentstand (Jul 17, 2011)

wow all these tsunade threads lately im in heaven  .Its very well put together and thought out .Good to see your still supporting tsunade -obviously silly me- i remember sometime back you were getting tired with her getting lack of fights


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## Yuna (Jul 17, 2011)

principito said:


> Every village in the manga has and had kages who were not medics.... at least that we know off....
> 
> Konoha makes the first attempt.... and its a crater now....
> 
> I dont need to post the evidence of this.... there are 500+ chapters that show it... its the manga itself u know


How would someone else being Hokage have saved Konoha from being turned into a crater by Chou Shinra Tensei? People speak as if it's possible to negate Chou Shinra Tensei.


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## Heli (Jul 17, 2011)

principito said:


> Every village in the manga has and had kages who were not medics.... at least that we know off....
> 
> Konoha makes the first attempt.... and its a crater now....
> 
> I dont need to post the evidence of this.... there are 500+ chapters that show it... its the manga itself u know



Tsunade essentially invented the medic nin position as we understand it in the manga today.

Let me ask you however: why wouldn't you want someone defending the village who happens to have tremendous defensive abilities who can also save injured fighters no one else can? Defending the village with a shinobi with defense oriented abilities seems like a no-brainer. 

Additionally Pain was a freakin beast. He owned Jiraiya. He would have curb-stomped Oro. Now mayb e Minato can take Pain. However *why would Minato need to be Hokage to take down Pain?* He could be an elite Jounin and still accomplish the task. Him being Hokage has nothing to do with him applying his offensive abilities. As I've said earlier, I would want my offensive monsters available for battle and not tied to the village. I would want my defensive beasts to stick to the village. 
The general of an army is not the best fighter.


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## CrazyAries (Jul 17, 2011)

principito said:


> OP see the difference?
> MAYBE she did her BEST with what she did..... but it still was a mess....
> 
> so the thing is she shouldnt have been there in the first place!



I see that you conveniently skipped over (or ignored) the post where the OP addressed the response you quoted.  She even included the links to manga pages.

In the end, the point was that Naruto had the best chance of all of the shinobi in the village to defeat Pain.  Tsunade recognized that and that was the point of Naruto undergoing Senjutsu training.  Even if the Hokage was more of a fighter, that would not change the fact that Naruto needed his Part 2 XP and thus Naruto would still have the greatest offensive impact.  Tsunade did what does best, and that was heal.  It did not amount to "nothing," as you put it, because she still save an indeterminate amount of lives.  That is protection is the truest sense of the word.  Additionally, there was a good chance that Naruto would have been in a different frame of mind if everyone in the village was dead prior to his return.


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## Akitō (Jul 17, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Nobody is saying that Tsunade has done nothing, we have pointed out a great number of mistakes and blunders she has committed over the years. In fact she is the only Hokage who has ever allowed Konoha to be destroyed. Yet you keep going on and on about how great she is, aren't you taking things a little bit over the top?



She's not "taking things a little bit over the top", because all she's doing is arguing for her point of view. I see members do that all the time, and I've seen you do that in this thread – are you taking things too far as well? She may demonstrate a hint of annoyance, but I'm sure that's simply because she's had to repeat the same argument so many times. 

Your point regarding Tsunade being under control when Konoha was destroyed isn't the best argument. Pain's arguably the strongest character that we've seen, and he's not a character like Orochimaru or Itachi that have pinpoint moves meant to kill a single person. Pain has two techniques that can be used on a _massive_ scale – Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei. No other Hokage would have been able to predict such a powerful jutsu; for all Tsunade knew, Pain could have been fleeing to catch Naruto. She obviously didn't want to instigate a fight, right?

It's also worth mentioning that during the previous Hokage terms (with the exception of Sarutobi), there were more noteworthy ninja present. In Tsunade's case, she had Kakashi and herself. 



> Why don't you put your efforts towards hyping Kushina? A real Kunoichi who doesn't use illusions to look like a big breasted bimbo. (I'm using the word 'bimbo' here because I can't find a better word to describe Tsunade's appearance, not to offend you.)



Coming into such a controversial thread with that type of mindset is always a bad idea. You probably knew that the subject matter would raise doubts, so did you really think that it would be productive to read the essay with such a closed mind? Come now, good sir!

I've been reading some of your posts lately in other threads, and I've noticed that you're really disrespectful. LegendaryBeauty quite clearly spent numerous hours on this project, and to come in and imply that her essay is meaningless is _rude_. Cut your half-assed comments and bring something useful to the discussion.


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## Shizune (Jul 17, 2011)

Tsunade healed an entire village.

People saying she's not qualified to be the Godaime Hokage are hilarious.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

Akitō said:


> She's not "taking things a little bit over the top", because all she's doing is arguing for her point of view. I see members do that all the time, and I've seen you do that in this thread ? are you taking things too far as well? She may demonstrate a hint of annoyance, but I'm sure that's simply because she's had to repeat the same argument so many times.



She has folded under the same arguments repeatedly. She knows that she has a weak argument here which she cannot defend. 



> Your point regarding Tsunade being under control when Konoha was destroyed isn't the best argument. Pain's arguably the strongest character that we've seen, and he's not a character like Orochimaru or Itachi that have pinpoint moves meant to kill a single person. Pain has two techniques that can be used on a _massive_ scale ? Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei. No other Hokage would have been able to predict such a powerful jutsu; for all Tsunade knew, Pain could have been fleeing to catch Naruto. She obviously didn't want to instigate a fight, right?



We have been over this. It is my opinion that the Kyuubi + Tobi/Madara are far more dangerous than Pain given the fact that Pain was getting his ass handed to him by less than half the Kyuubi.

As far as not wanting to instigate a fight, are you kidding me? Have you read her dialog? She outright stated that Konoha would fight until it was completely annihilated. She also sent out a messenger to get Naruto. She had every intention to fight like an idiot and completely ignore any hope for peace. 



> It's also worth mentioning that during the previous Hokage terms (with the exception of Sarutobi), there were more noteworthy ninja present. In Tsunade's case, she had Kakashi and herself.



Which is who's fault exactly? This is one of my arguments that Tsunade was completely unprepared for Pain's attack and Konoha was caught with it's pants down because of her lack of ability to plan or anticipate the enemy's obvious movements. 

Also if you notice shortly before Pain used Shinra tensai at least of the bodies had been in rather dire situations. Konoha had everything it needed and more to take on and defeat Pain. However due to a lack of organization and an active centralized leadership the superior force was clearly defeated. 



> Coming into such a controversial thread with that type of mindset is always a bad idea. You probably knew that the subject matter would raise doubts, so did you really think that it would be productive to read the essay with such a closed mind? Come now, good sir!
> 
> I've been reading some of your posts lately in other threads, and I've noticed that you're really disrespectful. LegendaryBeauty quite clearly spent numerous hours on this project, and to come in and imply that her essay is meaningless is _rude_. Cut your half-assed comments and bring something useful to the discussion.



Well I simply happen to disagree with this project. It is far too one sided and deserves very little praise. 

It makes Tsunade out to be somebody she is not, a great leader. She may be a great medic which is what the manga credits her for. She may be a mediocre(In the contest of top tier fighters) Taijutsu specialist. But she is not a good or even mediocre leader, she is a terrible leader who's multiple blunders have cost thousands their lives and nearly destroyed Konoha. All she can do is rely on Naruto, he is the real hero who deserves and receives the credit for his accomplishments in the manga. All LegendaryBeauty is doing here is trying to give Tsunade credit for the accomplishments of others.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

Alkonis said:


> Tsunade healed an entire village.
> 
> People saying she's not qualified to be the Godaime Hokage are hilarious.



What do you regard as healing an entire village? The only people she could kill were those who were injured and not killed. Given Pain's arsenal and the method which him a Konan were using the death toll was huge and there was nothing Tsunade could do about it.


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## Chibason (Jul 17, 2011)

Not cool


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## Googleplex (Jul 17, 2011)

Oh my gosh... I'm actually speechless.


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## Savage (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm surprised this is not trashed or the mods didn't get rid of it yet.


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## Mane (Jul 17, 2011)

What the actual fuck?


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## Savage (Jul 17, 2011)

It's a fuckin dupe invasion!!!

/reporting


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

Commenting on their behaviour is exactly what it wants. Stick to the topic on hand.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 17, 2011)

Eternal Pein said:


> Tsunade's job as Hokage doesn't entail her to go out and fight every single Akatsuki member she can find. The way you make it sound is that someone can't be a good leader unless they fight out in the front line's with the soldier's. *This is like saying the president of the US should go out and fight the terrorist on the front line's as well.*




This is totally different though. Because sadly our universe have the most limiting laws of physics and if there are any hidden laws that would allow us to reproduce the feats we see in fictional series we havent found them yet.

In our world sadly at least currently power is defined by 2 things: henchemen and money. So basically in real world you could say "power levels" are dependant on how much money and the count of your henchemen group. So thus the president is given basically unlimited money for acting and one of the largest henchemen reserves [the army] to act. So when he fights he do it with the only thing available, henchemen and money. See here we  doesnt have flashy jutsus that can teleport us or allow us solo a nation. If this was like Naruto and the president was the guy with one of the supposedly strongest jutsus on par with guys who could solo nations I think everyone would expect to have his ass deployed in the battlefield.

This is different, this is Naruto Kages are supposedly people like Hashirama and Minato the latter being confirmed a nation soloer and the former most likely that. Tsunade acted like someone in our world do, it is different because physics are different.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

Eternal Pein said:


> Tsunade's job as Hokage doesn't entail her to go out and fight every single Akatsuki member she can find. The way you make it sound is that someone can't be a good leader unless they fight out in the front line's with the soldier's. *This is like saying the president of the US should go out and fight the terrorist on the front line's as well.*



If the most important part of the job description was being strong enough to deter and defeat any threat to the united states of America I'd damn well expect the President to be out on the front line kicking ass. Currently Tsunade is the only Kage to ever avoid fighting an enemy of the village and allowing them to butcher the village nearly unchallenged.


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> If the most important part of the job description was being strong enough to deter and defeat any threat to the united states of America I'd damn well expect the President to be out on the front line kicking ass. Currently Tsunade is the only Kage to ever avoid fighting an enemy of the village and allowing them to butcher the village nearly unchallenged.



She didn't avoid Pain. When confronted, she challenged him. And chased him down. But what she did was smart. People complain about her fighting, but people would complain even more if you didn't have the manga's best damn medic heal people. What's the point of being a medic if you're not going to use your powers? She ensured the villagers' survival by taking the path she did.


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## Maerala (Jul 17, 2011)

The fact that Naruto was training with the toads specifically to confront Pain when the time came is almost always overlooked, along with the fact that Danzō's interference hindered the defensive strategies.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 17, 2011)

Tsunade is an OK Hokage, however thing as "the best physical fighter" as OP said is totally absurd. You cant fight character hating with character wankery, keep the facts cool and state the feats as they were.

With that said it is completely different to say "She saved the village to her best of her knowledgement" than:

"To this day (at that present time), no one could stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards *to battle *or medical *ninjutsu*"

Do you HONESTLY OP think NO ONE could stand shoulder to shoulder in  battle ninjutsu? You forget Naruto SM and RM, you forger Raikage, you forget RS who was said to have the perfected body.

And no dont come with "Oh but it was obvious those doesnt count" because you didnt specified it, you said what you said and honestly upon reading that I almost stopped.

Yes she was an OK Kage, no not at all the or one of the greatest. While Tsunade is indeed overrated, taking her as worthy would be a lot more easier to Tsunade skeptics like me if things were presented like they are without inflating the character to false levels.


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## Shizune (Jul 17, 2011)

Killer Bee Shunshins across a gorge and he is fast.

Tsunade Shunshins across a battlefield or a village and she is slow.

The community has decided not to like her, let it be.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> She didn't avoid Pain. When confronted, she challenged him. And chased him down. But what she did was smart. People complain about her fighting, but people would complain even more if you didn't have the manga's best damn medic heal people. What's the point of being a medic if you're not going to use your powers? She ensured the villagers' survival by taking the path she did.



She did ignore Pain up until he was right in her face and she could no longer ignore him without getting destroyed. 

Yeah, you guys keep saying that she saved the village. But she didn't do that. Naruto and Nagato did. She couldn't actually heal dead people and sadly death seemed to be the end result of confronting Pain for most shinobi. 

Furthermore her dialog ensured the village's destruction, not it's survival. Honestly what did you expect Pain to do when Tsunade told him that she would continue fighting him until Konoha was annihilated? Kinkaku himself killed Tobirama


Furthermore he job wasn't to heal the injured but to lead Konoha's forces which she clearly didn't do.


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> She did ignore Pain up until he was right in her face and she could no longer ignore him without getting destroyed.
> 
> Yeah, you guys keep saying that she saved the village. But she didn't do that. Naruto and Nagato did. She couldn't actually heal dead people and sadly death seemed to be the end result of confronting Pain for most shinobi.
> 
> ...



She didn't know where he was. And instead of wasting time trying to find him, she healed people

Now tell me what you would of said if she sold Naruto out? Because she did the right thing. She wasn't taking shit from a terroist and she stood up for her village and behaved like a true leader.


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## Maerala (Jul 17, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Furthermore her dialog ensured the village's destruction, not it's survival.



Why is this still an argument when Pain clearly admits to Konan that leveling Konoha is retribution for the death of his parents and Yahiko?

this


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

Her fighting Pain would've resulted in a far more worse outcome than it turned out to be. She's not as strong as Pain. She doesn't have as many bodies as Pain. How could you possibly justify fighting him would've been the better option?


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## Orochibuto (Jul 17, 2011)

OP Im still waiting to see evidence of no one being able to compare to Tsunade in physical fighting, after all this is what you clearly said.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

Those were Jiraiya's words. And fighting is not the focus of this essay, so it's a moot point to try and argue. I listed it by merit of it being in the explanation of why Jiraiya said Tsunade was best suited for the title of Hokage.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 17, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Those were Jiraiya's words. And fighting is not the focus of this essay, so it's a moot point to try and argue. I listed it by merit of it being in the explanation of why Jiraiya said Tsunade was best suited for the title of Hokage.



Ok, I will take it since you acknowledge this is just Jirayias opinion. Of course you will know that written statement means nothing against feats. Using Jiraiyas opinion as proof for Tsunade being able to stomp ANYONE in physical fighting is like if Rikudou Sennin said "Hinata shall become stronger than I ever was". Nothing if it isnt backed up by feats. And no its not a moot point since YOU were the one that brought it to the table in the OP, why put it if it isnt?


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## Friday (Jul 17, 2011)

LB's dedication to Tsunade gives me hope and excitement for her future


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Ok, I will take it since you acknowledge this is just Jirayias opinion. Of course you will know that written statement means nothing against feats. Using Jiraiyas opinion as proof for Tsunade being able to stomp ANYONE in physical fighting is like if Rikudou Sennin said "Hinata shall become stronger than I ever was". Nothing if it isnt backed up by feats. And no its not a moot point since YOU were the one that brought it to the table in the OP, why put it if it isnt?



I'm not saying she can stomp every single person against her. And note my word usage:



LegendaryBeauty said:


> Those were Jiraiya's words. And fighting is not the focus of this essay, *so it's a moot point to try and argue.* I listed it by merit of it being in the explanation of why Jiraiya said Tsunade was best suited for the title of Hokage.



It's relevant to the essay, as it's part of the reasons Jiraiya listed for her being the most suitable Hokage, but it is _not_ the focus of the thread and I am _not_ saying Tsunade is the strongest character and/or would beat everyone else in combat. It's a moot point to _argue_ against, as it's not what I was trying to showcase with this thread.


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Ok, I will take it since you acknowledge this is just Jirayias opinion. Of course you will know that written statement means nothing against feats. Using Jiraiyas opinion as proof for Tsunade being able to stomp ANYONE in physical fighting is like if Rikudou Sennin said "Hinata shall become stronger than I ever was". Nothing if it isnt backed up by feats. And no its not a moot point since YOU were the one that brought it to the table in the OP, why put it if it isnt?



Like LB said, it was just used as qualifications of her being a Hokage. Nothing more.


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## Xerces (Jul 17, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Her fighting Pain would've resulted in a far more worse outcome than it turned out to be. She's not as strong as Pain. She doesn't have as many bodies as Pain. How could you possibly justify fighting him would've been the better option?



You imply that Tsunade _chose_ not to engage Pain, when this is clearly false. Tsunade intended to engage Pain, twice, and failed miserably on both occasions. 

At her first attempt, Pain blew up the entire village before she could even land an attack. On the second occasion, she required saving from a bystander. Tsunade _did_ fight Pain, but unfortunately the fight was over as quickly as it had started.


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## Hero (Jul 17, 2011)

Xerces said:


> You imply that Tsunade _chose_ not to engage Pain, when this is clearly false. Tsunade intended to engage Pain, twice, and failed miserably on both occasions.
> 
> At her first attempt, Pain blew up the entire village before she could even land an attack. On the second occasion, she required saving from a bystander. Tsunade _did_ fight Pain, but unfortunately the fight was over as quickly as it had started.



Naruto wasn't a bystander. He had come to fight. That was his whole purpose of leaving


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

He knows full well she did not intend to fight him until there was nothing left to do but fight. Don't let him bait you with ridiculous points he could easily resolve if he read the manga properly.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 17, 2011)

I agree that Tsunade WAS one of the  best choices out there. However fans must also acknowledge that simply the current time has surpassed her, she was a great asset where Orochimaru was the worst enemy and I acknowlege that, even though other choices would had been better I will acknowledge she handed the invasion with the  best of her knowledgement {bar insulting Pain and basically say "we will fight you till Konoha no longer exist"..... sorry that was outright ridiculous and even made a thread about it]. However right now sorry, she has nothing to do against the new threads like Kabutomaru and Rinnegan Madara, not even the strategy because this is Shukaku`s job, basically the truth is that right now her only job is to stamp the "Hokage Approved" seal to things that will be done.

This isnt proof of a current good leader, she was in her time but not right now. A leader even though doesnt go to the lines at least create the sketch of the plan, Obama did said he actually created the capture plan. Howevet Tsunade has no hand even in preliminary planning, if she sat with Shukaku for example and together developed a plan would be different however she basically simply say "Konha, defeat the enemy I dont know how just do it, Shukaku think of how!". Basically her current job is basically simply put the "approved" signature on everything, take this as you want I just state how I see it, you may take the "approved seal" job as "Oh it is extremelly important job and a vital piece to defeat Madara" or say "Its a crap easy job everyone who knows how to shout or write could do" I just state what it is.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> *She didn't know where he was.* And instead of wasting time trying to find him, she healed people
> 
> Now tell me what you would of said if she sold Naruto out? Because she did the right thing. She wasn't taking shit from a terroist and she stood up for her village and behaved like a true leader.



Isn't that part of the problem? If the enemy invades the village the leader's first and primary focus should be on finding out the location of the enemy and responding appropriately. 



Godaime Hokage said:


> Why is this still an argument when Pain clearly admits to Konan that leveling Konoha is retribution for the death of his parents and Yahiko?
> 
> this



How can you say that when Nagato outright offered an alliance to Konoha? And of course it was retribution for Yahiko and his parents. Tsunade had demonstrated the type of mindset which led to the deaths of innocents like Yahiko who only wanted peace. 

Link removed
Tsunade is completely ignorant and unaware of Nagato's experience and she denounced him without even listening to him. Like Nagato said, to know somebody you must also know their pain. Tsunade claimed to know Nagato's pain, the pain of having your entire country destroyed repeatedly. The pain of starving to death because your parents were murdered in a war they had no relation to. So what did you expect Nagato to do?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 17, 2011)

She said she'd fight them with everything they had, not until they no longer existed. And that's what any leader of any country/village that was invaded by a terrorist would do. Would you have preferred she cooperated? Everyone would say she's weakwilled and a horrible Hokage for not fighting him. Would prefer she fought him? Everyone would say she was weak for not standing a chance against six Rinnegan bearers who fight in tandem and killed Jiraiya. She did the best she could, which also happened to be her forte of healing. Casualties were at a minimum, information was being shared, the only person who could defeat him was called back, and everyone else was evacuated. She did everything she could've done.

Now you're making it seem like she's better off being a puppet leader, or not a leader at all. If Shikaku was better qualified for being Hokage, he would be Hokage. Simple as that. He's got the smarts. What else does he have? Experience, sure, but not nearly as much as Tsunade. Charisma? Hardly, he's far too lazy.  Any real power or influence in the world? None, so to speak of, as far as we know. You say she was best suited to be Hokage during Orochimaru's time while he was a threat. His threat has come and gone, and Jiraiya said she was still the best choice. The Fire Daimyo also wanted to wait for Tsunade to wake up, as opposed to appointing a new one. This shows that even a comatose Tsunade is a far better candidate than most people in the village. 

The Pain threat was there, I wonder what Shikaku would've done? Attempt to negotiate? Figure out a battle plan? Evacuate everyone and shadow bind Pain? None of those would've been effective, especially in the face of Chou Shinra Tensei. How about Kakashi? Would he have warped CST away? Hardly. We saw how he fared againts Pain. He wouldn't have been able to keep the village as safe as she had, nor anywhere near the amount of villagers she saved. What about Gai? Chouza? Danzou? None of them would've been better in her position, especially in the event of CST.

So I wonder why you think someone else would be a better Hokage. And I wonder who. Do tell, because I don't see anyone as a better option at this point.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 17, 2011)

I dont blame Tsunade for not achieving diplomacy but for not even trying it. Minato attempted diplomacy with Madara he didnt went like "HEY friend I WILL FIGHT YOUR WITH EVERY OUNCE!", Hashirama attemted diplomacy with Madara too, same with Hiruzen and Oro. Tsunade could at least try to follow the example, the difference with all the other examples and this is that yes, all of them were international terrorist, but Nagato was the only one actually open to listen while all other were closed.

I am not saying she to hand Naruto but come on was this "YOU ARE A FUCKING TERRORIST AND WHAT YOU SAY IS BULLSHIT!" necessary? What would she gain with that?.... this is what really pissed me off. Pain was preparing to leave yes, he would have destroyed Konoha, have no doubt about it, but it was clear he would have done so when he had his nuke ready and would have wiped Konoha with the nuke along with all the country. The alliance proposal wasnt to spare Konoha from the CST but from the nuke, CST wasnt meant to pass, Konan was surprised she did, Nagato was heading to fight the jinchuuriki at the HOME of the toads I really doubt after learning he will be heading to the source of the power that made him lost 3  bodies to a non jinchuuriki he was going to nuke the village that day.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 17, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Would you have preferred she cooperated? COLOR]




Of course not, but come one she basically went "YOU FUCKING TERRORIST, YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT MY VILLAGE WILL CRUSH YOU!", was that really NECESSARY?! Was it the most noble thing? Yes, however noble is rarely practical.

Just like if an assasin come to your house gunning your family, the noble thing would be to stand to your beliefs and talk shit back, however you dont do that.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> She said she'd fight them with everything they had.



Sorry but what's the difference? Aren't shinobi Konoha's weapons? So doesn't everything Konoha have equate to every shinobi it employs?


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## Maerala (Jul 17, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> How can you say that when Nagato outright offered an alliance to Konoha? And of course it was retribution for Yahiko and his parents. Tsunade had demonstrated the type of mindset which led to the deaths of innocents like Yahiko who only wanted peace.



Accepting Nagato's offer would mean handing over Naruto to have the Nine-Tails extracted. We know where _that's_ going. And why should she believe what someone who came into her village killing and pillaging says? She would get even more shit than she does now had she accepted, and none of the previous Hokage would have, either. His choice to destroy Konoha had absolutely nothing to do with Tsunade. Random fodder killed his parents, accidentally, mind, and it was _Danzō's_ actions that killed Yahiko.



> Tsunade is completely ignorant and unaware of Nagato's experience and she denounced him without even listening to him. Like Nagato said, to know somebody you must also know their pain. Tsunade claimed to know Nagato's pain, the pain of having your entire country destroyed repeatedly. The pain of starving to death because your parents were murdered in a war they had no relation to. So what did you expect Nagato to do?



I don't care about what Nagato is supposed to do or not to do. Whatever happened to him, she can't just be like "Oh, you poor child, I understand your pain now. Please, continue to massacre everyone in my village until your fancy is quite suited." Too bad, so sad. You invade a village, expect countermeasures.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 17, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> You invade a village, expect countermeasures.



Yes but you cant except CM to be perfect. Nagato situation is like if an UFO bombed the  White House and then asked the president an alliance in exchange for all the gold. The president can either take the offer or risk and try to opposse the UFO I can assure you the president will be blamed or recognized for whatever come out of this.


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## Summers (Jul 17, 2011)

Hot damn going on 17 pages now. When did she become so popular in terms of debate generated. At this point some arguments that have already been dealt with are being repeated.


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## Xerces (Jul 17, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> So I wonder why you think someone else would be a better Hokage. And I wonder who. Do tell, because I don't see anyone as a better option at this point.




Nobody is disputing the fact that not a single shinobi in Konoha could have dealt with Pain in a clean and efficient manner. However, your point is completely irrelevant in this discussion, seeing as the premise of your thread is to disprove the notion of Tsunade being a 'trash' Hokage.

Furthermore, to measure Tsunade's worth as a Hokage (as you have attempted to do), it would be rational to compare her to previous shinobi that shared the same title: 


Minato was able to subdue the Kyuubi and save his village from certain destruction, at the cost of his life.
Hiruzen was able to prevent a full-on invasion from Orochimaru and two village armies (Sand and Sound), at the cost of his life
Tsunade provokes the enemy, and lets her village be completely obliterated by the hands of an opponent who was considerably weaker than the Kyuubi.

As you can see, Minato and Hiruzen had the resolve and tactical cunning to protect their village and avert the worst possible scenario. When faced with adversity, Tsunade _did_ let the worst possible scenario come to fruition: Complete and utter annihilation of Konoha. In the end, all she could do was kneel before a genin, and let Naruto clean up her mess. 

________________​
The events I have just outlined have shown us Tsunade's abysmal performance as a Hokage. Any comparison made with previous Hokage are laughable. Moreover, the length of your essay most likely exceeds the amount of lines Tsuande has had in the actual manga, which speaks volumes about the relevance and worth of her character. *She is nothing more than a pseudo-kage, warming up the seat for Naruto.*


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## Maerala (Jul 17, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Yes but you cant except CM to be perfect. Nagato situation is like if an UFO bombed the  White House and then asked the president an alliance in exchange for all the gold. The president can either take the offer or risk and try to opposse the UFO I can assure you the president will be blamed or recognized for whatever come out of this.



And how exactly would that deal work had she accepted it? If you re-read the invasion, you will see that everyone who was being questioned regarding Naruto's whereabouts was adamant about not releasing any information. No one was going to cooperate with her to capture Naruto and hand him over. They probably would've killed her and selected a new Hokage on the spot. Even entertaining the thought of accepting any sort of bargain from Pain was suicide. In the end, rejecting his proposal was the only way to go. The tailed beasts in the hands of Akatsuki are equivalent to the end of the world, or at least free will.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Accepting Nagato's offer would mean handing over Naruto to have the Nine-Tails extracted. We know where _that's_ going. And why should she believe what someone who came into her village killing and pillaging says? She would get even more shit than she does know had she accepted, and none of the previous Hokage would have, either. His choice to destroy Konoha had absolutely nothing to do with Tsunade. Random fodder killed his parents, accidentally, mind, and it was _Danzō's_ actions that killed Yahiko.



Her job was to ensure Konoha's safety. An alliance with Akatsuki would most certainly do this. But I'm not even suggesting that this was the right path for her to take. 

What she needed to do was to talk to Pain, attempt to understand his side of the story much like what Naruto did. Instead she called him a terrorist and his ideology a bunch of shit. Honestly what kind of a response would you expect from Pain after that kind of an exchange?



> I don't care about what Nagato is supposed to do or not to do. Whatever happened to him, she can't just be like "Oh, you poor child, I understand your pain now. Please, continue to massacre everyone in my village until your fancy is quite suited." Too bad, so sad. You invade a village, expect countermeasures.



You know, when a person has a nuke pointed at you and your people, saying something along the lines of "Too bad, so sad. You invade a village, expect countermeasures." just might get you and your people nuked.


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## Maerala (Jul 17, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Her job was to ensure Konoha's safety. An alliance with Akatsuki would most certainly do this. But I'm not even suggesting that this was the right path for her to take.
> 
> What she needed to do was to talk to Pain, attempt to understand his side of the story much like what Naruto did. Instead she called him a terrorist and his ideology a bunch of shit. Honestly what kind of a response would you expect from Pain after that kind of an exchange?



No, it really would not. You know very well what would come of that alliance. If you know it's not the right path to take, why even say that it's a way to protect the village?

Tsunade is not Naruto. He's the main character, and has been said several times to have some unique ability to change people's hearts, and has demonstrated it several times. She, unlike him, did not have the tools to alter Nagato's ideology. No one but Naruto did, in the same way that no one but Naruto had the power to take on Pain, which is why he was studying senjutsu in the first place, and why he was called back to confront Pain. Danzō's interference had much to do with how far Pain took his invasion, but this is always conveniently ignored by the opposition.



> You know, when a person has a nuke pointed at you and your people, saying something along the lines of "Too bad, so sad. You invade a village, expect countermeasures." just might get you and your people nuked.



Are you suggesting that the village take the invasion lying down? You're _supposed_ to fight off invasions.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> No, it really would not. You know very well what would come of that alliance. If you know it's not the right path to take, why even say that it's a way to protect the village?
> 
> Tsunade is not Naruto. He's the main character, and has been said several times to have some unique ability to change people's hearts, and has demonstrated it several times. She, unlike him, did not have the tools to alter Nagato's ideology. No one but Naruto did, in the same way that no one but Naruto had the power to take on Pain, which is why he was studying senjutsu in the first place, and why he was called back to confront Pain. Danzō's interference had much to do with how far Pain took his invasion, but this is always conveniently ignored by the opposition.



"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." - Sun Tzu 

Knowing your enemy is a great advantage. Even if Tsunade planned on fighting Pain she should have still attempted to understand him instead of telling him to fuck off. She should have attempted to learn his ideology or at the very least attempt to negotiate a temporary cease fire. 



> Are you suggesting that the village take the invasion lying down? *You're supposed to fight off invasions.*



Which is exactly what Tsunade was not doing.


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## Maerala (Jul 18, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> "It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." - Sun Tzu
> 
> Knowing your enemy is a great advantage. Even if Tsunade planned on fighting Pain she should have still attempted to understand him instead of telling him to fuck off. She should have attempted to learn his ideology or at the very least attempt to negotiate a temporary cease fire.



Oh, please. The fact is that they didn't know Pain aside from the fact that he was the leader of the organization that they had been fighting for years, which had been amassing ridiculous power, were after Naruto, and had massacred hundreds of people, Jiraiya included. They came knocking wanting Naruto, and they were not gonna stop until they had him. The moment Pain found out Naruto was not in the village, he nuked Konoha as a punishment for making him suffer when he was young. Tsunade was very right to be distrustful and defensive. Truly believing that he would come through with any bargain would be pure naivette.



> Which is exactly what Tsunade was not doing.



The village itself was fighting the invasion. Tsunade included. The role that she chose to take was probably the wisest, considering the circumstances. What would her actually physically confronting the invaders do? She set up a net of cummication throughout the entire village and without her support everyone, included those whose efforts were pooled into finding out exactly who Pain was and what his abilities were in order to properly fight him off would've died a hundred times over.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Oh, please. The fact is that they didn't know Pain aside from the fact that he was the leader of the organization that they had been fighting for years, which had been amassing ridiculous power, were after Naruto, and had massacred hundreds of people, Jiraiya included. They came knocking wanting Naruto, and they were not gonna stop until they had him. The moment Pain found out Naruto was not in the village, he nuked Konoha as a punishment for making him suffer when he was young. Tsunade was very right to be distrustful and defensive. *Truly believing that he would come through with any bargain would be pure naivette.*



You're talking about the guy who sacrificed his life in order to save Konoha. Are those the actions of a man who's mind was set on revenge?



> The village itself was fighting the invasion. Tsunade included. The role that she chose to take was probably the wisest, considering the circumstances. What would her actually physically confronting the invaders do? She set up a net of cummication throughout the entire village and without her support everyone, included those whose efforts were pooled into finding out exactly who Pain was and what his abilities were in order to properly fight him off would've died a hundred times over.



Tsunade was sitting on her ass while Konoha shinobi were being massacred due to a lack of any kind of organization or leadership. So how can you say that Tsunade was fighting against Pain?


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## Maerala (Jul 18, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> You're talking about the guy who sacrificed his life in order to save Konoha. Are those the actions of a man who's mind was set on revenge?



We've been over this. That was triggered by Naruto and his lengendary TnJ. Neither Tsunade nor anybody else would've had the same effect.



> Tsunade was sitting on her ass while Konoha shinobi were being massacred due to a lack of any kind of organization or leadership. So how can you say that Tsunade was fighting against Pain?



Again you coveniently ignored that she was being sabotaged from within. Regardless, saying that there was no organization/leadership is utterly false. The plan was to fight Pain and gather information on his abilities, hence Jiraiya's coded message and the effort that was put into deciphering it. Tsunade's abilities protected everyone in the village while they did just that. _That_ is how she was fighting Pain. In the same way that Shizune and everyone in the Intelligence Department was fighting Pain. There's more to fighting than physical confrontation, and yet she was Konoha's most valuable player throughout, bar Naruto himself.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> We've been over this. That was triggered by Naruto and his lengendary TnJ. Neither Tsunade nor anybody else would've had the same effect.



So Naruto's TNJ magically transforms people from being completely unreasonable? What about Tobi's whole "Oh yeah, Nagato was easy to influence." talk he gave to Naruto?

This thread also sets out to prove that Tsuande isn't just Naruto's bench warmer. How is she anything but that? Her skills at negotiating/inspiring are shit compared to his, her combat capabilities are shit compared to his as well. So how is she suppose to be respected as Hokage when Naruto is clearly the one doing the job?



> Again you coveniently ignored that she was being sabotaged from within. Regardless, saying that there was no organization/leadership is utterly false. The plan was to fight Pain and gather information on his abilities, hence Jiraiya's coded message and the effort that was put into deciphering it. Tsunade's abilities protected everyone in the village while they did just that. _That_ is how she was fighting Pain. In the same way that Shizune and everyone in the Intelligence Department was fighting Pain. There's more to fighting than physical confrontation, and yet she was Konoha's most valuable player throughout, bar Naruto himself.



Sorry but that plan is utter shit. 
Shikaku: "We outnumber the enemy two thousand to one, we can easily use the hundreds of available sensors to track down each body and have it be surrounded and destroyed." 
Tsunade: "I see where you're going with this, but what if we don't do that and instead piss off the enemy into annihilating the vast majority of the village while we wait for Naruto?"
Shikaku: "Or we could just inform the shinobi we have available of Pain's abilities."
Tsunade: "Nah, lets not inform them of anything, sure the information Shizune told me about them being controlled by chakra rods would indicate that the enemy is fighting by controlling the bodies but let's not send out our sensors to find the actual enemy because I am far too dumb to put 2 and 2 together."
Shikaku: "You are quite dumb... and blond."
Tsunade: "Why thank you."


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## CrazyAries (Jul 18, 2011)

Xerces said:


> Nobody is disputing the fact that not a single shinobi in Konoha could have dealt with Pain in a clean and efficient manner. However, your point is completely irrelevant in this discussion, seeing as the premise of your thread is to disprove the notion of Tsunade being a 'trash' Hokage.
> 
> Furthermore, to measure Tsunade's worth as a Hokage (as you have attempted to do), it would be rational to compare her to previous shinobi that shared the same title:
> 
> Minato was able to subdue the Kyuubi and save his village from certain destruction, at the cost of his life.



He did not do it alone.  His wife had to hold down the kyuubi long enough for Minato to be able to seal any part of it inside Naruto.



> Hiruzen was able to prevent a full-on invasion from Orochimaru and two village armies (Sand and Sound), at the cost of his life



You are leaving out a few things.  Orochimaru was arrogant and he was savoring the emotional torture that he inflicted upon Hiruzen.  Sandaime was not able to fully seal Orochimaru inside the belly of the Death God and let his former student escape a decade earlier.  Additionally, other nin in the village stepped forward to fight the army that Orochimaru brought.  Ultimately, Naruto stepped in to fight Gaara, who forced sleep to so that Shukaku could take over.



> Tsunade provokes the enemy, and lets her village be completely obliterated by the hands of an opponent who was considerably weaker than the Kyuubi.



And various posters (including myself) have explained why Nagato had more reasons to be "provoked".  Nagato hated the Five Great Nations and Konohagakure had at least three nin who were behind the loss of his parents and comrades.  Deva had no real reason to talk to Tsunade and even though the location of Naruto had been revealed, Nagato still used Deva to extend the conversation with Tsunade.  A closer look at his words would reveal that he was baiting her and that it backfired.  His offer to spare Konoha was a joke.  He just came in demolishing the village and wanted to take its last jinchuriki so that he could build a nuke.



> As you can see, Minato and Hiruzen had the resolve and tactical cunning to protect their village and avert the worst possible scenario. When faced with adversity, Tsunade _did_ let the worst possible scenario come to fruition: Complete and utter annihilation of Konoha. In the end, all she could do was kneel before a genin, and let Naruto clean up her mess.



Not everyone agrees with the way that Hiruzen and Minato handled those situations.  There was the issue of Oro living long enough to threatened Konoha and some think that Minato had options besides essentially committing suicide, but I digress.

The worst possible scenario would be for everyone in the village to perish.  Tsunade prevented that by her mass-healing.  Also, after Naruto came back from his talk with Nagato, there were a few panels where some villagers were talking about the demolished buildings.  The point was that they could be rebuilt and the *the people themselves* are what made the village.  Before that, Minato basically said the same thing.



> The events I have just outlined have shown us Tsunade's abysmal performance as a Hokage. Any comparison made with previous Hokage are laughable. Moreover, the length of your essay most likely exceeds the amount of lines Tsuande has had in the actual manga, which speaks volumes about the relevance and worth of her character. *She is nothing more than a pseudo-kage, warming up the seat for Naruto.*



Tsunade was accepted by the elders as a candidate and the Jounin voted to confirm her.  Offically, she is a real Hokage.  She oversaw the reconstruction of the village after Orochimaru's invasion.  She organize teams to deal with the threat of Akatsuki, including the mission to rescue Gaara.  That is what a "real" Hokage would do.  She was reinstated upon awaking from her coma.  Apparently, the daimyo that she was still fit to lead.

The bottom line about Pain was that he had to bee defeated by Naruto.  That is why Tsunade agreed to let him undergo Senjutsu training and that is why she ordered him to be called back once Pain invaded.  She could not defeat Pain, but she made sure that someone who could would show up and worked to save as many villagers as she could.

As for the planning in the war:  I am sure that she had a hand in planning for the medical corps.  Also, the presence of Shikaku is not an affront to her, but a demonstration of Konaha's talent.  Why the hell would she not let him step forward as a military strategist?


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## Hero (Jul 18, 2011)

Nice job Aries. I couldn't have worded it better. If this thread is still alive after my 2 and a half day departure I'll make sure to comment

You post was obviously well thought out.


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## Seph (Jul 18, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> But that still proves my point that she has more accomplishments. Even before she was there for that long, she still had many more accomplishments than old Hiruzen and the other Hokages. She even has more accomplishments than Minato.
> 
> Don't get accomplishments mixed up with feats



Then it's a completely stupid statement to make because the only reason Tsunade has more accomplishments than we know about the others is because we've seen her around longer.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 18, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Of course not, but come one she basically went "YOU FUCKING TERRORIST, YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT MY VILLAGE WILL CRUSH YOU!", was that really NECESSARY?! Was it the most noble thing? Yes, however noble is rarely practical.
> 
> Just like if an assasin come to your house gunning your family, the noble thing would be to stand to your beliefs and talk shit back, however you dont do that.



If they're going to gun your family regardless, you may as well speak truthfully. You haven't done anything to upset them, or provoke them, yet they invaded your house and were already killing your family members. What's the likelihood of them leaving you alive? Why not speak the truth when you're capable of it?

Edit: Oh wow. AKMW is arguing she should've sided with Akatsuki and had an alliance with them?

Lol. Nothing more needs to be said.


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## SageRafa (Jul 18, 2011)

Tsunade is not a fodder Kage but she simply pales in comparision with every other Kage . she doesn't have feats , she never defended the village in a fight , she never fought in part 2 , she is just a authority figure with some hype and without feats so that's why people underrate her so much.

But if you guys want to blame someone blame Kishi . There are people who follow hype ( Tsunade fans ) and will say she is the best kunoichi , great Hokage  etc etc , there are people who follow feats (Tsunade haters) and consider her fodder because with her feats anyone worth in part 2 can defeat her; and then there are those people who use hype and feats (neutral , like myself ) that sees her as a normal, neither overpower neither weak fighter ( balancing feats and hype) but good Hokage ( in terms of decisions and Medic Ninjutsu ).


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## Summers (Jul 18, 2011)

The Tsunade calling Pain on his bull thing has been responded to and addressed already but I have another take on it.

In this manga when a villain starts talking there is always a response, some calm some angry. What Tsunade did is not uncommon from what we have seen from every other character in the manga. I cant find an example of them staying quite, through the entire exchange and if there is one then the instances of speaking Is greater. 

If we apply that standard, the belief that Tsunade should have said nothing and that it was her fault for what happened afterwards, to other Characters or Kages then we would have a situation where we can blame Raikage for the 4th Ninja war, He did yell at Madara right, and the other Kages spoke their mind as well and said they would resist him, similar to Tsunade did,calling out the enemy on their bull. 

We could do this for every character.
Silly right?


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## bearzerger (Jul 18, 2011)

Not to diss Tsunade, but ultimately she is the third choice hokage. She was never the strongest of her generation like Hashirama, Sarutobi and Minato. She only got the job after Minato died and Jiraiya refused it. So naturally it shouldn't be a surprise that she is inferior to those two. Just like with the Nidaime her job is to keep the village together and not to shape the entire shinobi world like her other three predecessors did. Such a feat is just beyond her.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 18, 2011)

Tobirama got the job after Hashirama died. Hiruzen got the job after Tobirama was killed in battle. Minato got the job after Hiruzen retired. Does that suddenly make them not the top choice for the next position of Hokage? I don't see your point.

If Minato was DEAD, he CANNOT be a choice for the Fifth Hokage in the first place. His name and relevance are irrelevant in this instance. I fail to see why you brought him up, actually. Jiraiya said she was top choice, Councillors agreed. That means she's top choice for Hokage, not Jiraiya.


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## Shizune (Jul 18, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> Not to diss Tsunade, but ultimately she is the third choice hokage.



Actually she is, to this day, the primary choice for Godaime Hokage. Minato is irrelevant to the selection as he is her predecessor. 



bearzerger said:


> She was never the strongest of her generation like Hashirama, Sarutobi and Minato.



Hashirama was generations before her. Hiruzen was also a generation before her and, feat-wise, was not actually the strongest of his age nor stronger than Tsunade. Minato is a generation ahead of her and has been labeled as stronger than any of the Sannin. Tsunade _is_ among the strongest of _her generation_, along with Orochimaru and Jiraiya.



bearzerger said:


> She only got the job after Minato died and Jiraiya refused it.



Your logic is odd. We could also say Minato only got the job because Hashirama was dead. Come to think of it, Tsunade was likely absent from the village during his reign anyways. And the Elders considered Tsunade equally as, if not more so, qualified then Jiraiya for the position, they were simply skeptical as to whether or not she could be located and persuaded.



bearzerger said:


> So naturally it shouldn't be a surprise that she is inferior to those two.



The only Hokages with better feats than her are Hashirama, for building the village, and Minato, who is above all of the Sannin.


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## bearzerger (Jul 18, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Tobirama got the job after Hashirama died. Hiruzen got the job after Tobirama was killed in battle. Minato got the job after Hiruzen retired. Does that suddenly make them not the top choice for the next position of Hokage? I don't see your point.
> 
> If Minato was DEAD, he CANNOT be a choice for the Fifth Hokage in the first place. His name and relevance are irrelevant in this instance. I fail to see why you brought him up, actually. Jiraiya said she was top choice, Councillors agreed. That means she's top choice for Hokage, not Jiraiya.





Alkonis said:


> Actually she is, to this day, the primary choice for Godaime Hokage. Minato is irrelevant to the selection as he is her predecessor.
> 
> Hashirama was generations before her. Hiruzen was also a generation before her and, feat-wise, was not actually the strongest of his age nor stronger than Tsunade. Minato is a generation ahead of her and has been labeled as stronger than any of the Sannin. Tsunade _is_ among the strongest of _her generation_, along with Orochimaru and Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



Both of you fail to see my point. 

In the history of Konoha in each generation there was always one person who reached the absolute pinnacle of the shinobi world. In the first generation that was Hashirama. Tobirama never managed to step out of his shadow. In the second generation it was Hiruzen who in his prime was the strongest of the kages and then in the third generation it was Minato who reached the position of the strongest. They were the first choice and that's why those three are by far the greatest and strongest of the five hokage. If Hashirama and Minato hadn't died before their time neither Tobirama nor Tsunade would have ever become hokage. There really isn't any doubt of that.

Tsunade is the third choice to be hokage. When Hiruzen felt it was time for him to retire, Minato was his first choice. When Minato died so quickly he wanted Jiraiya to take over, but Jiraiya refused on account of his percieved failure with Orochimaru and only then was Tsunade even approached.

This is the reason why people shouldn't expect too much from her. She's a high level shinobi and a capable kage but she just isn't able to fill the boots of the 1st, 3rd and 4th. Those three were truly great and only Naruto will be able to succeed them.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 18, 2011)

Actually, it is you who fail to see the point. We're talking about the position of Godaime Hokage. Minato already had his shot. He also died fulfilling that spot. How can you consider him a choice for the title of succeeding Hokage?  Since when did we start considering dead people choices for subsequent Hokages?


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## Googleplex (Jul 18, 2011)

Bearzerger makes a point. 
She's not exactly the pinnacle shinobi of her generation: there are pinnacle shinobi (a collective group i.e. the Sannin or Kinkaku and Ginkaku; I) and pinnacle shinobi (more atomistic -- individual identity over group such as the Yellow Flash or Toad Hermit; II).

She is certainly a pinnacle shinobi I, but certainly not a pinnacle shinobi II; for simplicity I'll say pinnacle shinobi I = 'pinnacle collective' and pinnacle shinobi II = 'pinnacle shinobi'.
Tsunade is a pinnacle collective shinobi in that she was among those in a generation that were in the top of their league, not a pinnacle shinobi whom could be seen as _the_ shinobi of her general that was at the top of their game.

That doesn't hinder her Hokage-hood, as the OP argued, however it doesn't mean she can be compared to the others in terms of prestige; the others were pinnacle shinobi rather than pinnacle collective shinobi {Hashirama, Tobirama (both famous; beating Madara-Edo Tensei, space-time etc), the professor and the yellow flash}, in fact the original choice for Yondaime Hokage was a pinnacle shinobi (Orochimaru), who did not get the title due to his malevolent intent whilst the first choice for the Godaime Hokage could be seen as a pinnacle shinobi in a lot of respects (Madara Uchiha and Nagato along with Zetsu- the big 3 of Akatsuki at the time - all commended his power and reputation) despite not being on _the top_ of his generation.
Tsunade pales in comparison to that which is probably why she's not given as much respect as the others alongside the fact she was the second choice in the end; choices should hardly matter as apparently Jiraiya seemed to be the second choice for Yondaime Hokage meaning Minato was the _third choice_ for the title.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> Tsunade is the third choice to be hokage. When Hiruzen felt it was time for him to retire, Minato was his first choice. When Minato died so quickly he wanted Jiraiya to take over, but Jiraiya refused on account of his percieved failure with Orochimaru and only then was Tsunade even approached.



Wasn't she the 4th choice? (If even a choice?)
Hiruzen's first choice was Orochimaru, but then he chose Minato because of Oro's unusual hobbies. It was never hinted at that Hiruzen wanted Tsunade to succeed him was it?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 18, 2011)

Can I firstly applaud LB for writing such an excellent essay, it has outlined anything that one can ever need to address in a debate of whether or not Tsunade is indeed a good Kage or not, so fantastic work LB, as usual. In particular that scan where Kakashi admits Tsunades plan of including more medics into squads on missions to increase survivial rates, was an excellent idea, kind of made my day. For I've been searching for that scan for quite a while!

Also, it should go without saying if you didn't read the OP you don't post. This is extremely irritating. 




Googleplex said:


> Bearzerger makes a point.
> She's not exactly the pinnacle shinobi of her generation: there are pinnacle shinobi (a collective group i.e. the Sannin or Kinkaku and Ginkaku; I) and pinnacle shinobi (more atomistic -- individual identity over group such as the Yellow Flash or Toad Hermit; II).



This is true. But it does not dismiss the fact that she was among the best of her generation. 



> She is certainly a pinnacle shinobi I, but certainly not a pinnacle shinobi II; for simplicity I'll say pinnacle shinobi I = 'pinnacle collective' and pinnacle shinobi II = 'pinnacle shinobi'.
> Tsunade is a pinnacle collective shinobi in that she was among those in a generation that were in the top of their league, not a pinnacle shinobi whom could be seen as _the_ shinobi of her general that was at the top of their game.



True.



> That doesn't hinder her Hokage-hood, as the OP argued, however it doesn't mean she can be compared to the others in terms of prestige; the others were pinnacle shinobi rather than pinnacle collective shinobi {Hashirama, Tobirama (both famous; beating Madara-Edo Tensei, space-time etc), the professor and the yellow flash}, in fact the original choice for Yondaime Hokage was a pinnacle shinobi (Orochimaru), who did not get the title due to his malevolent intent whilst the first choice for the Godaime Hokage could be seen as a pinnacle shinobi in a lot of respects (Madara Uchiha and Nagato along with Zetsu- the big 3 of Akatsuki at the time - all commended his power and reputation) despite not being on _the top_ of his generation.



I disagree. Tsunade may not have been the strongest of her generation but it's not like all the other Kage weren't in the same boat. Tobirama would be inferior to Mu the Nidaime Tsuchikage for example. Furthermore, Tsunade too was famous, being hailed as the Worlds Strongest Kunoichi and the best medical ninja in the world. She was also feared for her skill in taijutsu and brute strength. Orochimaru was considered Kage being that he was Hiruzens favourite student and he was typically seen as a genius. Never was it actually stated he was any stronger than either Jiraiya or Tsunade when he was in his prime. I'd also like to add that Tsunade was in fact out of Konoha at the time, meaning she was incapable of being considered regardless. Hiruzen hoped Jiraiya would take on the role but he also refused , and thus with all three of his students unable to take the role Minato was the only other option. It's likely Tsunade would've been Hiruzens preferred choice over Minato, given the difference in experience. 



> Tsunade pales in comparison to that which is probably why she's not given as much respect as the others alongside the fact she was the second choice in the end; choices should hardly matter as apparently Jiraiya seemed to be the second choice for Yondaime Hokage meaning Minato was the _third choice_ for the title.



Figures of whom hold high power themselves commending Orochimaru for his own power is obviously something to brag, but it's not as though Tsunade doesn't fall under this category. Danzo who is within Hiruzens generation, and boasts power on the same level as _Sasuke Uchiha_, praises Tsunades strength, as do Kakashi Hatake, Chiyo of the Sand and Shikaku Nara. All of whom hold huge experience and great power themselves.


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## Googleplex (Jul 18, 2011)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I disagree. Tsunade may not have been the strongest of her generation but it's not like all the other Kage weren't in the same boat. Tobirama would be inferior to Mu the Nidaime Tsuchikage for example. Furthermore, Tsunade too was famous, being hailed as the Worlds Strongest Kunoichi and the best medical ninja in the world. She was also feared for her skill in taijutsu and brute strength. Orochimaru was considered Kage being that he was Hiruzens favourite student and he was typically seen as a genius. Never was it actually stated he was any stronger than either Jiraiya or Tsunade when he was in his prime. I'd also like to add that Tsunade was in fact out of Konoha at the time, meaning she was incapable of being considered regardless. Hiruzen hoped Jiraiya would take on the role but he also refused , and thus with all three of his students unable to take the role Minato was the only other option. It's likely Tsunade would've been Hiruzens preferred choice over Minato, given the difference in experience.



Although I can counter argue and say Tobirama may very well have been superior to Muu. 


			
				Databook 2 said:
			
		

> [Tobirama] was a superior ninjutsu user, being able to use Water Release without being near the waterside, among many other feats.


Going by Minato, one of these other feats included a space-time Ninjutsu, Minato seemed to hold that space-time Ninjutsu in high regard alongside Hiraishin. Additionally, many shinobi including Muu, various Kage and even Chiyo acknowledged Edo Tensei as Tobirama's. 
These all point to Tobirama possibly being even stronger than Muu was. 

But it can be said Orochimaru was the first choice because of his talent; databook 3 said Orochimaru stood out of the Sannin due to his talent. Further, he defeated Jiraiya without any augmentations and what not (Jiraiya is considered more suited to fight Orochimaru compared to Tsunade; Jiraiya lost to a weaker than today's Orochimaru postulating Tsunade couldn't do better)... long story short, Orochimaru had his talent going for him too; malevolent intent made the Hokage title slip from his grasp.
Also I wouldn't readily say Tsunade would be Hiruzen's preferred choice for Hokage if she was around, as by that time Minato had a lot going for him from being even more feared than the Sannin (Yellow Flash; flee on sight), having tremendous power, having links to Hokage as well as feats such as being the backbone to Konoha's victory in their last war as well as bringing back the Kyuubi Jinchuriki from the Kumo nin- then there was Jiraiya calling him the destined savior of the world. 
Long story short: with all the factors at the time, I doubt Minato would've lost the title to Tsunade over experience.
However I did point out Minato was the _third_ choice, so it'd be bad to rag on Tsunade for being the _second_ choice; I said it did not affect her Hokage-hood.




> Figures of whom hold high power themselves commending Orochimaru for his own power is obviously something to brag, but it's not as though Tsunade doesn't fall under this category. Danzo who is within Hiruzens generation, and boasts power on the same level as _Sasuke Uchiha_, praises Tsunades strength, as do Kakashi Hatake, Chiyo of the Sand and Shikaku Nara. All of whom hold huge experience and great power themselves.



That's because she has a reputation. However that doesn't mean they admit inferiority: for example Madara and Pain acknowledged Jiraiya and Kakashi's reputation despite being stronger than them. 
But if you want to pool everyone's power and reputation into one big table: Tsunade pales in comparison. 
This is because - as I mentioned in the last post - she is a pinnacle collective shinobi, not a pinnacle shinobi. Looking at the manga the latter have insane feats ranging from taming Bijuu, to mastering jutsu (all from the village to all the mainstream Ninjutsu), to being able to warp instantly, to taming the strongest Bijuu, to having one of the most powerful ocular powers etc.
Tsunade has potential to show her feats, but at the moment I wouldn't bet too much as I view her as a pinnacle collective.

*However* I do not believe this affects her Hokage-hood, as the OP rightfully pointed out.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 18, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> Although I can counter argue and say Tobirama may very well have been superior to Muu.



Please do, I'd be interested in your thoughts. 



> Going by Minato, one of these other feats included a space-time Ninjutsu, Minato seemed to hold that space-time Ninjutsu in high regard alongside Hiraishin. Additionally, many shinobi including Muu, various Kage and even Chiyo acknowledged Edo Tensei as Tobirama's.
> These all point to Tobirama possibly being even stronger than Muu was.



We have no idea what Space/Time Ninjutsu Tobirama had nor what it did, we can't assume that simply because he had a S/T technique he would become extremely powerful in battle. Tenten holds a S/T technique but that doesn't make her a big threat in battle. As for other ninja acknowledging Tobirama's Edo Tensei, I have already addressed this in another thread:



> We know he could use the Impure World Resurrection, though he wasn't that skilled using it. We know Yondaime Kazekage recognises its effects, so clearly Tobirama was able to resurrect people for battle purposes. This could mean he could summon up perhaps one person at a time, given that Orochimaru was better with the technique and could summon two. However - this is only an assumption, I think the point that Tobirama wasn't that great at using the technique, has been made.






> But it can be said Orochimaru was the first choice because of his talent; databook 3 said Orochimaru stood out of the Sannin due to his talent. Further, he defeated Jiraiya without any augmentations and what not (Jiraiya is considered more suited to fight Orochimaru compared to Tsunade; Jiraiya lost to a weaker than today's Orochimaru postulating Tsunade couldn't do better)... long story short, Orochimaru had his talent going for him too; malevolent intent made the Hokage title slip from his grasp.
> Also I wouldn't readily say Tsunade would be Hiruzen's preferred choice for Hokage if she was around, as by that time Minato had a lot going for him from being even more feared than the Sannin (Yellow Flash; flee on sight), having tremendous power, having links to Hokage as well as feats such as being the backbone to Konoha's victory in their last war as well as bringing back the Kyuubi Jinchuriki from the Kumo nin- then there was Jiraiya calling him the destined savior of the world.
> Long story short: with all the factors at the time, I doubt Minato would've lost the title to Tsunade over experience.
> However I did point out Minato was the _third_ choice, so it'd be bad to rag on Tsunade for being the _second_ choice; I said it did not affect her Hokage-hood.



It was never stated that Orochimaru actually defeated Jiraiya, only that he tried to stop him leaving Konoha and failed. While fighting him in Part I in the Sannin fight, Jiraiya was in mid air when Orochimaru landed a strike on him, it goes without saying you can't dodge much when you're in the air so is it any wonder Orochimaru managed to conquer Jiraiya in combat. Besides that both ninja were hindered for one reason or another, Jiraiya was drugged and Orochimaru was ill, it wasn't a fair fight on either side. Orochimaru stood out amongst the Sannin for being a genius, much like how Neji stood out within Team Gai for being a genius. However, in the anime, at least, each member is around the same strength. With Team 7, Naruto, despite not standing out, was around equal in strength with Sasuke. Sakura was not like Tsunade in that she had no outstanding talent as a Genin, so is it any wonder she was significantly weaker than the pair. The same cannot be said of Tsunade. 

Minato was certainly seen as a great ninja and did indeed have a lot going for him, I suppose you can't jump to any conclusion without revising each characters achievements by that stage first. Firstly, I don't actually recall it being said Minato was more feared than the Sannin, could you link me? He did save Kushina, and he did get a name for himself - the Yellow Flash. He was one of the main reasons Konoha won the Third Shinobi War, however, he has some parallels to Tsunade in that sense. Because she was one of the main reasons Konoha won the _Second_ Shinobi War. As LB quoted from Jiraiya in her essay:  

_"Calm yourself. Tsunade's the only possible choice for the Fifth Hokage...Not only did she contribute greatly towards Konoha's victory during the turbulent era of The [Second] Great War...but there are still none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle or medical ninjutsu. "_

She had also made an impact in the Third Shinobi War by introducing the addition of medical ninja into squads, to increase survivial rates, to which skilled ninja . Beyond that her reputation and titles matched that of Minatos, the only difference being that she had much more experience:

Databook entries: 
_" Tsunade has completed 1,256 official missions in total: 40 D-rank, 236 C-rank, 467 B-rank, 418 A-rank, 95 S-rank "_
_" Minato completed 847 official missions in total: 122 D-rank, 147 C-rank, 216 B-rank, 323 A-rank, 39 S-rank "_

Furthermore, she was Hiruzens student, her taught her personally and induced his ideologies and methods into her, he had seen her growth from start to finish. He knew her better as a person and had more reason to pick her. Not to say Minato didn't stand a shot, because he did, I simply think it's more likely she would've been chosen over him. Also Minato was the third choice, and Jiraiya was the second choice. I'm not saying Tsunade would've been picked over Jiraiya, he was actually more experienced than Tsunade, with about 600 more missions on his roster, though I suppose she actually had more going for her, but still - Hiruzen seemed reliant on Jiraiya, not Tsunade. 




> That's because she has a reputation. However that doesn't mean they admit inferiority: for example Madara and Pain acknowledged Jiraiya and Kakashi's reputation despite being stronger than them.
> But if you want to pool everyone's power and reputation into one big table: Tsunade pales in comparison.
> This is because - as I mentioned in the last post - she is a pinnacle collective shinobi, not a pinnacle shinobi. Looking at the manga the latter have insane feats ranging from taming Bijuu, to mastering jutsu (all from the village to all the mainstream Ninjutsu), to being able to warp instantly, to taming the strongest Bijuu, to having one of the most powerful ocular powers etc.
> Tsunade has potential to show her feats, but at the moment I wouldn't bet too much as I view her as a pinnacle collective.



Does it matter? If someone strong praises someone else for being strong or on equal grounds then it is a great feat, it need not matter much if they are inferior to the said person. At least not unless theres a significant gap in strength between the two. Comparing her with every single person in the manga? Well then putting Tsunades reputation and strength together then she would still pale in comparison to the best yes, for there are people like Rikudo Sennin who massively outclass her, I think that's what you meant? It need not matter if she is not the strongest shinobi of her generation, as I have proved with the Tobirama example, and if you are not convinced, read the last post on . If you're comparing jutsu and feats, then no Tsunade wouldn't be the strongest Kage, she isn't the God of Shinobi nor can she have Bijuu do her bidding, but she has had her display of amazing feats that no other could come close to. She had healed hundreds, if not thousands of people at once, with a technique she once stated used  and not even be remotely exhausted by . This is her most spectacular feat, in my opinion.



> *However* I do not believe this affects her Hokage-hood, as the OP rightfully pointed out.



Fair enough.


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## Googleplex (Jul 18, 2011)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> We have no idea what Space/Time Ninjutsu Tobirama had nor what it did, we can't assume that simply because he had a S/T technique he would become extremely powerful in battle. Tenten holds a S/T technique but that doesn't make her a big threat in battle. As for other ninja acknowledging Tobirama's Edo Tensei, I have already addressed this in another thread:



That may be true, however Minato felt the need to emphasize it as he did with his own, suggesting it must've been a good jutsu for Minato to identify it; arguably it had a similar nature to Madara and Minato's space-time Ninjutsu as Minato compared it to those particular space-time Ninjutsu as opposed to the summoning style space-time Ninjutsu such as the one Tenten pointed out.

I never tried to compare Tobirama's use to the others, I merely pointed out the jutsu's reputation. Its likely Tobirama couldn't sport it as well as the two White Snakes, however he was able to use it well enough for it to gain a reputation. 
Tobirama's accomplishments so far seem phenomenal when you consider their nature this is while we've not seen much from him; Muu is showing his cards now. 
based on that I wouldn't readily say Muu is stronger than Tobirama as Tobirama could easily show or be said to have something which completely turns the tables. 





> It was never stated that Orochimaru actually defeated Jiraiya, only that he tried to stop him leaving Konoha and failed. While fighting him in Part I in the Sannin fight, Jiraiya was in mid air when Orochimaru landed a strike on him, it goes without saying you can't dodge much when you're in the air so is it any wonder Orochimaru managed to conquer Jiraiya in combat. Besides that both ninja were hindered for one reason or another, Jiraiya was drugged and Orochimaru was ill, it wasn't a fair fight on either side. Orochimaru stood out amongst the Sannin for being a genius, much like how Neji stood out within Team Gai for being a genius. However, in the anime, at least, each member is around the same strength. With Team 7, Naruto, despite not standing out, was around equal in strength with Sasuke. Sakura was not like Tsunade in that she had no outstanding talent as a Genin, so is it any wonder she was significantly weaker than the pair. The same cannot be said of Tsunade.



If Jiraiya failed to capture Orochimaru, it implies he lost to Orochimaru, I assume.
That may be true, however, Jiraiya did not counter Orochimaru when - during the Sannin fight - he said despite equal handicaps, the gap was still there between them. 
Though, the databook also mentioned talent. We've seen Orochimaru's talent rise above his Sannin comrades as he was able to take a Hokage's jutsu further than the creator, managed to come up with lots of jutsu, altered his anatomy and so forth.



> Minato was certainly seen as a great ninja and did indeed have a lot going for him, I suppose you can't jump to any conclusion without revising each characters achievements by that stage first. Firstly, I don't actually recall it being said Minato was more feared than the Sannin, could you link me? He did save Kushina, and he did get a name for himself - the Yellow Flash. He was one of the main reasons Konoha won the Third Shinobi War, however, he has some parallels to Tsunade in that sense. Because she was one of the main reasons Konoha won the _Second_ Shinobi War. As LB quoted from Jiraiya in her essay:
> 
> _"Calm yourself. Tsunade's the only possible choice for the Fifth Hokage...Not only did she contribute greatly towards Konoha's victory during the turbulent era of The [Second] Great War...but there are still none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle or medical ninjutsu. "_
> 
> ...



That was me surmising, based on the fact other shinobi were ordered to flee when they saw one particular ninja- Minato.

 Good point, although could you not say Minato had the edge as he was living proof of Konoha's bond with the whirlpool country as well as the fact he guarded the Jinchuriki well for many years? Something no Konoha shinobi - except arguably Hashirama - did?




> Furthermore, she was Hiruzens student, her taught her personally and induced his ideologies and methods into her, he had seen her growth from start to finish. He knew her better as a person and had more reason to pick her. Not to say Minato didn't stand a shot, because he did, I simply think it's more likely she would've been chosen over him. Also Minato was the third choice, and Jiraiya was the second choice. I'm not saying Tsunade would've been picked over Jiraiya, he was actually more experienced than Tsunade, with about 600 more missions on his roster, though I suppose she actually had more going for her, but still - Hiruzen seemed reliant on Jiraiya, not Tsunade.



However since Dan's death Tsunade's will of fire seem to weaken, because of this I don't believe she would've had good steed. Arguably this is why Jiraiya was a choice after Orochimaru and a choice before Tsunade, his will of fire was great; so great he was willing to kill Tsunade for Konoha's sake and so great that he sacrificed himself so Konoha could get Pain's secret.
Minato's will of fire could be comparable, especially since he was concurrently cherishing an old bond with the whirlpool country. 
Tsunade was an adequate choice when it was learnt that her will of fire was reignited, which was during the Sannin fight iirc.




> Does it matter? If someone strong praises someone else for being strong or on equal grounds then it is a great feat, it need not matter much if they are inferior to the said person. At least not unless theres a significant gap in strength between the two. Comparing her with every single person in the manga? Well then putting Tsunades reputation and strength together then she would still pale in comparison to the best yes, for there are people like Rikudo Sennin who massively outclass her, I think that's what you meant? It need not matter if she is not the strongest shinobi of her generation, as I have proved with the Tobirama example, and if you are not convinced, read the last post on . If you're comparing jutsu and feats, then no Tsunade wouldn't be the strongest Kage, she isn't the God of Shinobi nor can she have Bijuu do her bidding, but she has had her display of amazing feats that no other could come close to. She had healed hundreds, if not thousands of people at once, with a technique she once stated used  and not even be remotely exhausted by . This is her most spectacular feat, in my opinion.



That is true. However as far as overall power goes, she falls short compared to people like Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama, Hiruzen, Jiraiya and Orochimaru (Hokage candidates)... which is why people attack her for her Hokage-ship.
Which again seems hypocritical as they'd be satirising her for being the _second_ choice for Gondaime Hokage whilst many people praise the _third_ choice for Yondaime Hokage.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 18, 2011)

Godaime Tsunade - so you say that Tsunade's reputation as a "Princess" also as a drunken , gambling mess equals the reputation of Minato "The Yellow Flash" , "The Destined Child" , "The Savior"

Tsunade's reputations pales in comparison to Yondaime Hokage.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Godaime Tsunade - so you say that Tsunade's reputation as a "Princess" also as a drunken , gambling mess equals the reputation of Minato "The Yellow Flash" , "The Destined Child" , "The Savior"
> 
> Tsunade's reputations pales in comparison to Yondaime Hokage.



Wait what? Tsuande's only nickname is "The Legendary Sucker!" I mean sure she is probably more famous than Minato but at the same time I wouldn't say that the fame is a good thing. The nickname is an insult and not a compliment.


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## Maerala (Jul 18, 2011)

Tsunade's nickname is Konoha's Slug Princess, which both Chiyo and Ōnoki have used.


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## Puppetry (Jul 18, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Wait what? Tsuande's only nickname is "The Legendary Sucker!" I mean sure she is probably more famous than Minato but at the same time I wouldn't say that the fame is a good thing. The nickname is an insult and not a compliment.



Don't forget; she's sucking off the pizza boy to pay her debts. That's how she got the title, right?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Tsunade's nickname is Konoha's Slug Princess, which both Chiyo and Ōnoki have used.



Slug vs. Flash. How can you not see that one of the two is an obvious insult? 



Puppetry said:


> Don't forget; she's sucking off the pizza boy to pay her debts. That's how she got the title, right?



That's actually a pretty good theory. I would imagine that Tsunade would have problems paying for food due to her massive debts.


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## tsunadefan (Jul 18, 2011)

@ akmywaffle: your still at it? trying to demean the name of tsunade when its not working? and lol at her sucking off pizza boys. btw, there isn't really any insult between slug and flash when used in this context.


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## Puppetry (Jul 18, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> That's actually a pretty good theory. I would imagine that Tsunade would have problems paying for food due to her massive debts.



Of course it's a good theory. You were the one who originally proposed it.  Seeing as you stand by it, then you have no credibility in Tsunade threads.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

tsunadefan said:


> @ akmywaffle: your still at it? trying to demean the name of tsunade when its not working? and lol at her sucking off pizza boys. btw, there isn't really any insult between slug and flash when used in this context.



Flash implies fast and slug implies slow. So obviously the flash would beat the slug. And while I am joking here and now, I do think that Tsunade's reputation pales in comparison to Minato's for one big reason...

Minato saved the village from being nuked, Tsunade caused the nuking of the village.


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## NeoKurama (Jul 18, 2011)

Tsunade have lots of fans.


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## mylastduchess (Jul 18, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Wait what? Tsuande's only nickname is "The Legendary Sucker!" I mean sure she is probably more famous than Minato but at the same time I wouldn't say that the fame is a good thing. The nickname is an insult and not a compliment.



Somebody hasn't read the manga


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

NeoKurama said:


> Tsunade have lots of fans.



Or somebody has been busy making dupes. One or the other...


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## tsunadefan (Jul 18, 2011)

@ noekoruma: yes, yes she does. XD

@ akmywaffle: thats y her title is an insult? cause slug implies slow? really?!.. i dont think i'll comment on this one cause the reasons why it is not an insult compared to minato is obvious... and her reputation doesn't pale in comparison! where the hell did you get that? but tsunade saved the villagers from being nuked! and she didn't cause the nuking.. what you need to look at is that pein was an annoying terrorist and he is the reason for the destruction of the village, not tsunade's. it's not her fault pein had a tantrum for the truth she was speaking. the fault is on pein. it was his choice whether or not to destroy the village, not tsunade's. you realize that, right?


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## Missing_Nin (Jul 18, 2011)

tsunade's weak and she sucks.


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## tsunadefan (Jul 18, 2011)

@ missing nin: troller, there is no need for you now. we already have many to tend to already.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

tsunadefan said:


> @ noekoruma: yes, yes she does. XD
> 
> @ akmywaffle: thats y her title is an insult? cause slug implies slow? really?!.. i dont think i'll comment on this one cause the reasons why it is not an insult compared to minato is obvious... and her reputation doesn't pale in comparison! where the hell did you get that? but tsunade saved the villagers from being nuked! and she didn't cause the nuking.. what you need to look at is that pein was an annoying terrorist and he is the reason for the destruction of the village, not tsunade's. it's not her fault pein had a tantrum for the truth she was speaking. the fault is on pein. it was his choice whether or not to destroy the village, not tsunade's. you realize that, right?



But she did cause the nuking, she told Pain Konoha would fight until it has no more strength. 
But then he throws at least 20+ kunai like its nothing
But then he throws at least 20+ kunai like its nothing
But what I find most interesting is that she told Pain that Konoha should not have been held accountable for it's actions. That it had suffered enough, just as much as the Rain village. But really did it suffer as much? Did they have their nation destroyed? Did they experience a civil war?

Tsunade is just the kind of idiot who would march an army into a small nation like the rain, hell she did march as part of Konoha's army, without even so much as considering the strife it causes. 
But then he throws at least 20+ kunai like its nothing
That's why she can smile while talking about the Rain village being used as a battleground by the three nations.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Flash implies fast and slug implies slow. So obviously the flash would beat the slug. And while I am joking here and now, I do think that Tsunade's reputation pales in comparison to Minato's for one big reason...
> 
> *Minato saved the village from being nuked, Tsunade caused the nuking of the village.*



and that's why no one from Konoha other than Shizune and Naruto and Shikaku was remotely worried about her when she was in a coma.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 19, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Godaime Tsunade - so you say that Tsunade's reputation as a "Princess" also as a drunken , gambling mess equals the reputation of Minato "The Yellow Flash" , "The Destined Child" , "The Savior"



Name at least one person in the entire manga who has reputed current Tsunade for her gambling and drinking habits. And great, Minato has titles, Tsunade has those too. " Konoha's Slug Princess " , " Legendary Sannin " , " Godaime Hokage ". 



> Tsunade's reputations pales in comparison to Yondaime Hokage.



Prove it.



Googleplex said:


> That may be true, however Minato felt the need to emphasize it as he did with his own, suggesting it must've been a good jutsu for Minato to identify it; arguably it had a similar nature to Madara and Minato's space-time Ninjutsu as Minato compared it to those particular space-time Ninjutsu as opposed to the summoning style space-time Ninjutsu such as the one Tenten pointed out.



It was undoubtedly a high level Space/Time Technique, for it was used by a Hokage after all. But, we can speculate forever on indeed what the technique was or did, but essentially we will never know. 



> I never tried to compare Tobirama's use to the others, I merely pointed out the jutsu's reputation. Its likely Tobirama couldn't sport it as well as the two White Snakes, however he was able to use it well enough for it to gain a reputation.
> Tobirama's accomplishments so far seem phenomenal when you consider their nature this is while we've not seen much from him; Muu is showing his cards now.
> based on that I wouldn't readily say Muu is stronger than Tobirama as Tobirama could easily show or be said to have something which completely turns the tables.



Well then thats settled then. Tobirama has reputation for inventing the Edo Tensei. His accomplishments aren't significantly better than that of any of the other Kage, however. If Mu goes invisible and uses Dust Cubes Tobirama is toast, he has nothing to counter such a combination. I suppose it could be said that Tobirama has something to defeat Muu with, much like it _could be said_ that Tenten has something to defeat Madara with, albeit a very low chance. 





> If Jiraiya failed to capture Orochimaru, it implies he lost to Orochimaru, *I assume*.
> That may be true, however, Jiraiya did not counter Orochimaru when - during the Sannin fight - he said despite equal handicaps, the gap was still there between them.
> Though, the databook also mentioned talent. We've seen Orochimaru's talent rise above his Sannin comrades as he was able to take a Hokage's jutsu further than the creator, managed to come up with lots of jutsu, altered his anatomy and so forth.



You assume. There isn't actually anything stating this. For all we know Orochimaru could have used his usual techniques in order to escape Jiraiya. As I said, when he defeated Jiraiya, it was in a position where evasion was impossible. If Jiraiya was put on solid ground the end result would not have been the same. Where did it mention talent? And no, not really. Orochimaru created many forbidden jutsu through experimentation, of which increased his abilities and gave him a form of what he called immortality. Jiraiya held many many techniques of which had variation, such as the Summoning Technique, Needle Jizo or Barrier Dome Method. He also trained under the Toads and learned to use Sage Mode. Tsunade was the worlds greatest medic and could shatter boulders with her fists by inventing a unique fighting style with a form of medical ninjutsu. She could regrow organs and limbs with her S Rank Seal. Overall, no one rises above the other in talent, for they are exceptional in talent. Jiraiya would be the only one who noticably rises above the others in power. 



> That was me surmising, based on the fact other shinobi were ordered to flee when they saw one particular ninja- Minato.



One can't really surmise like that in a debate where evidence is required, though. 



> Good point, although could you not say Minato had the edge as he was living proof of Konoha's bond with the whirlpool country as well as the fact he guarded the Jinchuriki well for many years? Something no Konoha shinobi - except arguably Hashirama - did?



Not really. Kushina was part of Konoha whenever he saved her, he was saving her because she was the Jinchuuriki and she was innocent, not because she used to be part of the Whirlpool country. Also, I'd be inclined to say Minato was not the only ninja who protected the Kyuubi, for even before and after his reign, the Kyuubi failed to ever be taken hostage or be killed by enemy





> However since Dan's death Tsunade's will of fire seem to weaken, because of this I don't believe she would've had good steed. Arguably this is why Jiraiya was a choice after Orochimaru and a choice before Tsunade, his will of fire was great; so great he was willing to kill Tsunade for Konoha's sake and so great that he sacrificed himself so Konoha could get Pain's secret.
> Minato's will of fire could be comparable, especially since he was concurrently cherishing an old bond with the whirlpool country.
> Tsunade was an adequate choice when it was learnt that her will of fire was reignited, which was during the Sannin fight iirc.



Well, naturally the reason Tsunade left Konoha in the first place, was because many of her loved ones had died. Furthermore, Tsunade is perhaps more likely to have developed the idea that Hokage was a ' fools job ' during the 20 years that she had left Konoha, not immediately after she left. Assuming her loved ones hadn't died and she was able to stay in Konoha, she would've been in her regular state of mind and arguably more likely to get the position than Minato. 




> That is true. However as far as overall power goes, she falls short compared to people like Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama, Hiruzen, Jiraiya and Orochimaru (Hokage candidates)... which is why people attack her for her Hokage-ship.
> Which again seems hypocritical as they'd be satirising her for being the _second_ choice for Gondaime Hokage whilst many people praise the _third_ choice for Yondaime Hokage.



Tsunade is not as strong as Minato or Hashirama, who could teleport around, or have Bijuu do their bidding in battle, however, I can easily argue that she is stronger than Tobirama. That she is around equal with Orochimaru and at least stronger than _Old_ Hiruzen. And yes, true. Of course, Jiraiya admits Tsunade may have been the better choice.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 19, 2011)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Name at least one person in the entire manga who has reputed current Tsunade for her gambling and drinking habits. And great, Minato has titles, Tsunade has those too. " Konoha's Slug Princess " , " Legendary Sannin " , " , " Godaime Hokage ".



the Princess title thing aint that great and its an insult like AKmyWaffle said.

and the Legendary Sannin Title doesnt mean jack after Part 1 Kabuto beat Tsunade and she needed Saving from 12 yr Naruto.

and the Godaime Hokage title means nothing after she caused Pain to Nuke Konoha then needed Naruto to fight Nagato and TnJ him into reviving the dead Konoha Shinobi while Tsunade was worrying about gathering enough Chakra to get her Younger look back while there was many people dead in Konoha ruins.

Minato has many titles , "One Man Army" based on Flee-on-Sight orders from Villages.

also "Yondaime Hokage" , "The Savior" , "The Destined Child" , "Finest Shinobi Konoha ever Produced" , "Genius once in a decade".

Minato's titles >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tsunade's titles.


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## Seph (Jul 19, 2011)

> Minato's titles >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tsunade's titles.



OMG SOMEONE HAS BETTER TITLES THAN SOMEONE ELSE

YOU'RE RIGHT THEY'RE TOTALLY A BETTER PERSON JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE BETTER TITLES


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## Distance (Jul 19, 2011)

Why do people keep saying that Tsunade failed because she couldn't stop Shinra Tensei? No one had the plot relevance to stop Shinra Tensei, but only Naruto because he has that sort of liberty by being the main character. The village was supposed to be destroyed, and no one was going to stop it, not Minato, not Hiruzen, not Tobirama, and not Hashirama, if they were all still alive. Saying Tsunade was a bad Hokage for letting that happen isn't a smart judgement to make.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 19, 2011)

Distance said:


> Why do people keep saying that Tsunade failed because she couldn't stop Shinra Tensei? No one had the plot relevance to stop Shinra Tensei, but only Naruto because he has that sort of liberty by being the main character. The village was supposed to be destroyed, and no one was going to stop it, not Minato, not Hiruzen, not Tobirama, and not Hashirama, if they were all still alive. Saying Tsunade was a bad Hokage for letting that happen isn't a smart judgement to make.



Minato have S/T Barrier


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## Distance (Jul 19, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Minato have S/T Barrier



Minato *has* Space Time Barrier. 

And like I said, Minato hasn't got the plot relevance to be stopping the village from getting destroyed that chapter. The village was destroyed so that Naruto had a more dramatic, emotional and meaningful fight with the a main vilain. Let's see Minato's Space Time Barrier stop that. 

And if you want to get technical about it, Shinra Tensei is the ability to manipulate gravity at the user's will to repulse matter away. Let's see Minato try to teleport gravity. It would be so broken that Kishimoto will get fired from Shounen Jump.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 19, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> the Princess title thing aint that great and its an insult like AKmyWaffle said.



I'm confused - her title as Konoha's Slug Princess..is offensive? Well, lets find some definitions for you, Namikaze Minato. Being that you read the manga and should have some degree of intelligence on it, and that you speak the English language, I will hope you understand that *Konoha's* is possessive. Being that Tsunade lives within Konoha, and she is famous for being from the Village. *Slug*, is not referencing the fact that Tsunade is slow, it is referencing the fact that she can Summon Slugs. In the same way way Jiraiya is a Toad Sage, for the fact that he Summons Toads, not that he has a super stretchy tongue able to catch flies. *Princess* is a position of high authority and power, it also may refer to how Tsunade is related to Hashirama , who above all could be seen as a King. 

Put that together and you have a Highly powerful woman, who can summon Slugs into battle, and is related to a man who was capable of killing Madara Uchiha. Nothing there seems offensive to me.




> and the Legendary Sannin Title doesnt mean jack after Part 1 Kabuto beat Tsunade and she needed Saving from 12 yr Naruto.



So Kabuto, despite beating Part I Tsunade where she was weakened and nowhere near her usual strength, and even then still having to resort to her blood phobia, in order _to_ defeat her, makes her title as a Legendary Sannin worthless? What horrible logic. By that theory, Orochimarus status as a Legendary Sannin is also worthless since he was killed by Sasuke, albeit being practically on his deathbed. And Jiraiyas status as a Legendary Sannin is also worthless, since he was defeated by an Armless Orochimarus in mid air, where evasion was naturally impossible.



> and the Godaime Hokage title means nothing after she caused Pain to Nuke Konoha then needed Naruto to fight Nagato and TnJ him into reviving the dead Konoha Shinobi while Tsunade was worrying about gathering enough Chakra to get her Younger look back while there was many people dead in Konoha ruins.



Tsunade did not cause Pein to nuke Konoha, anymore than Minato caused Madara to summon the Kyuubi. She just witnessed Pein destroy her entire village and kill many of her strongest shinobi, of course she was angry. And when Pein claimed that her Village had not suffered like he had, of course she yelled at him. Tsunade was unaware Pein had the ability to destroy her entire Village all in one go when she started shouting at him, and if she were she may have been more cautious. Similarly, Minato saved Naruto from Madara instead of saving Kushina, as a result she was kidnapped and Madara extracted the Kyuubi from her, putting leaf under complete destruction and killing hundreds of the people who lived within it. If he had known Madara was capable of such a thing, he may have been more cautious.  

You claim Tsunade is a terrible Kage for a lack of knowledge, even when no other Kage would've done any better if put in her situation. You also ignore all the achievements Tsunade made during her reign, many of which LB outlined in her essay.



> Minato has many titles , "One Man Army" based on Flee-on-Sight orders from Villages.i



I would consider this the only valid one. 



> also "Yondaime Hokage" , "The Savior" , "The Destined Child" , "Finest Shinobi Konoha ever Produced" , "Genius once in a decade".



All these titles were awarded to him _after_ he was given the Kage title, iirc. We are debating whether or not Hiruzen would've passed the title of Hokage onto Tsunade or Minato, assuming Tsunade had still been in Konoha, he wouldn't have had these titles at this stage, no would Hiruzen have referred him as such regardless. And I must say that Minato was not widely referred as them anyway. He was only once referred to as The Destined Child, The Savior, The Finest Shinobi Konoha ever produced and the Genius once in a Decade, by Jiraiya or those within Konoha, no one else recognised him for such. Seemed more like personal opinion of one or a few people within a single area rather than widely known reputation



> Minato's titles >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tsunade's titles.



The overuse of the ' > ' is for dramatic exaggeration clearly, for the simple fact that you are a fan of Minato and this idea that his titles are significantly better derives from personal opinion. Minatos titles sound cooler, but by Naruto standards to have a true title, then you are what the title states. And none of Minatos actual titles make him any better than Tsunade. If Tsunade is Konohas reputable Princess then she is. If Tsunade is the worlds greatest Medical ninja, then that she is. Minato is a Yellow Flash. He is the Savior because he saved Konoha from the Kyuubi, we know he wasn't really The Destined Child, that's Naruto. We know he wasn't the finest Shinobi Konoha ever produced since Hashirama, Madara and Hiruzen all originate from Konoha. And being a once in a decade Genius is exaggerating his intelligence. There were others, such as Sakumo, who easily were just as much of a genius as he. Hence, these titles never actually actually stuck. The only one which stuck was ' The Yellow Flash ', because he stayed true to the title.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> and that's why no one from Konoha other than Shizune and Naruto and Shikaku was remotely worried about her when she was in a coma.



That's true just about everybody was celebrating Naruto and had very little to no reaction to Danzou being declared the Hokage. And even Shikaku was all over getting Kakashi elected as the new Kage. 

techniques
Old Lady adviser: Tsunade destroyed the village. 
Daimyou: Should have picked Jiraiya, everybody thought he was better for the job.

techniques
Basically during the few years Tsuande had been Hokage Kanoha went from being the strongest village in the world to being on the brink of collapse. 


You can even see it in the stats of the village. Konoha has the largest population which implies that they have the most to work with. More shinobi would mean a stronger military and a stronger economy. However this is not the case under Tsuande's rule, Konoha has a weak military and an even weaker economy. Danzou's words do have meaning behind them, Tsunade within her first few years has been able to bring Konoha, formally the greatest village, to it's knees.


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## Icegaze (Jul 19, 2011)

Kudos to OP LegendaryBeauty. Wonderful read. Many elements I agree with, few I dispute. All in all, I believe Tsunade-hime should command more respect than she gets on NF.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 19, 2011)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm confused - her title as Konoha's Slug Princess..is offensive? Well, lets find some definitions for you, Namikaze Minato. Being that you read the manga and should have some degree of intelligence on it, and that you speak the English language, I will hope you understand that *Konoha's* is possessive. Being that Tsunade lives within Konoha, and she is famous for being from the Village. *Slug*, is not referencing the fact that Tsunade is slow, it is referencing the fact that she can Summon Slugs. In the same way way Jiraiya is a Toad Sage, for the fact that he Summons Toads, not that he has a super stretchy tongue able to catch flies. *Princess* is a position of high authority and power, it also may refer to how Tsunade is related to Hashirama , who above all could be seen as a King.
> 
> Put that together and you have a Highly powerful woman, who can summon Slugs into battle, and is related to a man who was capable of killing Madara Uchiha. Nothing there seems offensive to me.


Princess refer to Tsunade being spoiled and gets everything handed to her on a silver platter.

and she's called Princess cuz she's a Senju thanks to her grandfather who established the name of the clan and lead it to success while Tsunade reaped the rewards by becoming a Hokage cuz her teammate have a crush on her and the elders were trained by her uncle Tobirama.

not only is Minato's title is better , Minato actually worked on his title and wasnt handed to him like Tsunade.



> So Kabuto, despite beating Part I Tsunade where she was weakened and nowhere near her usual strength, and even then still having to resort to her blood phobia, in order _to_ defeat her, makes her title as a Legendary Sannin worthless? What horrible logic. By that theory, Orochimarus status as a Legendary Sannin is also worthless since he was killed by Sasuke, albeit being practically on his deathbed. And Jiraiyas status as a Legendary Sannin is also worthless, since he was defeated by an Armless Orochimarus in mid air, where evasion was naturally impossible.


Hebi Sasuke > Armless Orochimaru > Kabuto

Tsunade is the one who made the Sannin's name worthless.




> Tsunade did not cause Pein to nuke Konoha, anymore than Minato caused Madara to summon the Kyuubi. She just witnessed Pein destroy her entire village and kill many of her strongest shinobi, of course she was angry. And when Pein claimed that her Village had not suffered like he had, of course she yelled at him. Tsunade was unaware Pein had the ability to destroy her entire Village all in one go when she started shouting at him, and if she were she may have been more cautious. Similarly, Minato saved Naruto from Madara instead of saving Kushina, as a result she was kidnapped and Madara extracted the Kyuubi from her, putting leaf under complete destruction and killing hundreds of the people who lived within it. If he had known Madara was capable of such a thing, he may have been more cautious.
> 
> You claim Tsunade is a terrible Kage for a lack of knowledge, even when no other Kage would've done any better if put in her situation. You also ignore all the achievements Tsunade made during her reign, many of which LB outlined in her essay.


you say Tsunade yelled at Pain , yet you say she didnt cause Pain to Nuke Konoha?

Pain is a Shinobi with huge ego , ofcourse when she yelled at him he wanted to show her her place and prove to her that he's superior and in the end Tsunade is the one who lost.

she as a Hokage needed to be level headed and calm , but what do yuo expect from a Hokage that was vouched for to get the Position by her teammate who HAS a crush on her?

and you cant compare the 2 situations between Minato and Tsunade , cause Minato didnt need saving from 16 yr Gennin like Tsunade.


> All these titles were awarded to him _after_ he was given the Kage title, iirc. We are debating whether or not Hiruzen would've passed the title of Hokage onto Tsunade or Minato, assuming Tsunade had still been in Konoha, he wouldn't have had these titles at this stage, no would Hiruzen have referred him as such regardless. And I must say that Minato was not widely referred as them anyway. He was only once referred to as The Destined Child, The Savior, The Finest Shinobi Konoha ever produced and the Genius once in a Decade, by Jiraiya or those within Konoha, no one else recognised him for such. Seemed more like personal opinion of one or a few people within a single area rather than widely known reputation


all these titles he EARNED , he wasn't setting on his butt drinking and gambling all day long , he was involved in dangeorus missions ever since he was young , and after that saved Konoha in the 3rd war , and guarded the Jinchuriki.

and it's a no-brainer he'd choose Minato over Tsunade , Minato had all the qualities a Hokage should have and he worked on himself till he became Hokage , he didnt get things handed to him cuz of his grandfather like Tsunade.

and Hiruzen if he wanted Tsunade he'd sent someone to bring her back and make her 4th Hokage , but he didnt because Minato is better and she's a drunking gambling mess that act on emotion rather than her brain which is what got a lot of Konoha Shinobi's killed and Konoha would've became a small village had Naruto not convince Nagato to revive them.

Minato is way better than Tsunade , everyone who saw the flashbacks chapters and how Minato acted knows that for sure.

not to mention Tsunade drugged Jiraiya a Konoha Shinobi , that is something a Hokage never does , but again , what do you expect from someone that got Hokage position handed to them while they were outside the village drinking and gambling?



> The overuse of the ' > ' is for dramatic exaggeration clearly, for the simple fact that you are a fan of Minato and this idea that his titles are significantly better derives from personal opinion. Minatos titles sound cooler, but by Naruto standards to have a true title, then you are what the title states. And none of Minatos actual titles make him any better than Tsunade. If Tsunade is Konohas reputable Princess then she is. If Tsunade is the worlds greatest Medical ninja, then that she is. Minato is a Yellow Flash. He is the Savior because he saved Konoha from the Kyuubi, we know he wasn't really The Destined Child, that's Naruto. We know he wasn't the finest Shinobi Konoha ever produced since Hashirama, Madara and Hiruzen all originate from Konoha. And being a once in a decade Genius is exaggerating his intelligence. There were others, such as Sakumo, who easily were just as much of a genius as he. Hence, these titles never actually actually stuck. The only one which stuck was ' The Yellow Flash ', because he stayed true to the title.


how none of Minato's actual titles make him better than Tsunade when he earned those titles while Tsunade got them because of her grandfather ?

and if Sakumo was such a genius he wouldnt have killed himself or put himself in a tough situations.

Minato's titles are way better than Tsunade , tsunade's title as princess she got it cuz shes senju and cuz of her grandfather.

and Minato's reputation was so strong that Shinobi's think of running away when they face him.

while Tsunade's reputation was so strong that Kabuto a Gennin thought he can take her out and he did.


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## Pseudo (Jul 19, 2011)

But she didn't fight pain.


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## Seraphiel (Jul 19, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Actually, it is you who fail to see the point. We're talking about the position of Godaime Hokage. Minato already had his shot. He also died fulfilling that spot. How can you consider him a choice for the title of succeeding Hokage?  Since when did we start considering dead people choices for subsequent Hokages?



No actually you don't see his point. He is saying that Tsunade cannot compare to the shinobi that came before her, who as he said where the their time the pinnacle of the shinobi world, and as such people shouldn't really expect much from Tsunade compared to what those 3 achieved. 


Also let me give you a tip : Killing someone as a diversion doesn't equal to killing someone for fun, idk where you got that fallacy from but please be real.


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## motto (Jul 19, 2011)

There's a thing that I noticed around these forums..people tend to overcompensate for the weaknesses of  their fav characters with looong threads such as this one.

What I learned is that the longer the thread the weaker and useless the character.

The opposite of that is a short, to the point op: 
Minato is BAMF. Problem?

I am not in complete disagreement with some of the facts stated in this thread but I do strongly believe that Tsunade is a weak hokage and Konoha would be better off without her.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 19, 2011)

Hardly, people go by what they see, as opposed to statements and context. If they don't bother to take such things into account, of course they're going to get a misinterpretation of a character's abilities/skills. Simply because it's popular opinion doesn't make it true; a prime example in real life would be people believing the world was flat hundreds of years ago. Almost everyone believed it, yet we know better now. Same applies to this case.



Seraphiel said:


> No actually you don't see his point. He is saying that Tsunade cannot compare to the shinobi that came before her, who as he said where the their time the pinnacle of the shinobi world, and as such people shouldn't really expect much from Tsunade compared to what those 3 achieved.
> 
> 
> Also let me give you a tip : Killing someone as a diversion doesn't equal to killing someone for fun, idk where you got that fallacy from but please be real.



Let me clarify. He said that she wasn't a pinnacle shinobi of her time, which is really subject to opinion, as how strong a character is is depended on by one's own interpretation; it is not solely rooted anywhere in the manga nor explicity stated that she isn't a top shinobi of her time. In fact, Jiraiya seems to paint the opposite and imply that she is, when he was clarifying why she was the best option for Hokage.

Regardless, I saw he was trying to say that she couldn't compare to the previous Hokage before her. I disagree, but I'm not arguing entirely on that front. He was using previous Hokage and saying their incapacitation/deaths would've put her further in line for the title of Godaime Hokage. My point was that one who is dead/retired and was a previous Hokage can not be considered for the position of subsequent Hokage titles. As such, how can one tell me that Tsunade was like the third choice for Godaime Hokage? Aside from Jiraiya, she was the only one mentioned, and all parties agreed without question once Jiraiya mentioned she was the best suited.

Like it or not, she was the best candidate, and one of the pinnacle shinobi of her time. Jiraiya pointed out she was extremely talented in not only combat, but medical ninjutsu, and her ideas and contributions had helped Konoha significantly win the Second Great Shinobi World War. She didn't just make a name for herself as one of the Sannin, she also made herself known as the World's *Best* Medical Ninja. The world's _best_. I'm pretty sure you've got to be a pinnacle shinobi in order to be the best at something, not only in your village, but in the entire world.

As for diversion killing being the same as fun, I still stand by that. Pain's going on about Konoha killing people and ruining his life and destroying all the other villages with their "peace", but he was no better. If he's going to end someone's life so easily and whimsically for a distraction, there's little difference between it being for a reason and it being on a whim. A life isn't something you throw away, as a wise kunoichi once said.


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## Icegaze (Jul 19, 2011)

Some Soup said:


> Most forums I see, giver her MUCH less respect.



You may be right. But I mentioned NF because it's the one forum I know best.
I can't wait for Kishi to have Tsunade do some haxx move which will make all her haters pull a 180.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 19, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Princess refer to Tsunade being spoiled and gets everything handed to her on a silver platter.



...that is..laughable at best. When did Tsunade ever have things handed to her on a silver plate, or be spoiled?  



> and she's called Princess cuz she's a Senju thanks to her grandfather who established the name of the clan and lead it to success while Tsunade reaped the rewards by becoming a Hokage cuz her teammate have a crush on her and the elders were trained by her uncle Tobirama.



That could be only one of the reasons. Did you not ever stop to think on a symbolic level? A Princess typically represents high authority and power, among other things as well. And no, she became Hokage for her power, reputation and past achievements 

Minato was certainly seen as a great ninja and did indeed have a lot going for him, I suppose you can't jump to any conclusion without revising each characters achievements by that stage first. Firstly, I don't actually recall it being said Minato was more feared than the Sannin, could you link me? He did save Kushina, and he did get a name for himself - the Yellow Flash. He was one of the main reasons Konoha won the Third Shinobi War, however, he has some parallels to Tsunade in that sense. Because she was one of the main reasons Konoha won the _Second_ Shinobi War. As LB quoted from Jiraiya in her essay:  

_"Calm yourself. Tsunade's the only possible choice for the Fifth Hokage...Not only did she contribute greatly towards Konoha's victory during the turbulent era of The [Second] Great War...but there are still none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle or medical ninjutsu. "_

She had also made an impact in the Third Shinobi War by introducing the addition of medical ninja into squads, to increase survivial rates, to which skilled ninja . Beyond that her reputation and titles matched that of Minatos, the only difference being that she had much more experience:

Databook entries: 
_" Tsunade has completed 1,256 official missions in total: 40 D-rank, 236 C-rank, 467 B-rank, 418 A-rank, 95 S-rank "_
_" Minato completed 847 official missions in total: 122 D-rank, 147 C-rank, 216 B-rank, 323 A-rank, 39 S-rank "_



> not only is Minato's title is better , Minato actually worked on his title and wasnt handed to him like Tsunade.



Minatos title sounds cooler, there's a difference. And I've just disproved that Tsunade didn't work for her titles. So no, you're wrong. 




> Hebi Sasuke > Armless Orochimaru > Kabuto



So you're not even going to try and deny my statement? 

...

It doesn't matter whose stronger than who, the point was that none of the Sannin were put in fair scenarios, of course they were beaten by opponents who were at least reasonably powerful.



> Tsunade is the one who made the Sannin's name worthless.



Personal opinion has no place in a debate.



> you say Tsunade yelled at Pain , yet you say she didnt cause Pain to Nuke Konoha?



I never said that did I? I believe what I said was Tsunade did not cause Pein to nuke Konoha, anymore than Minato caused Madara to summon the Kyuubi. Both Ninja may have indirectly caused destruction of Leaf, but it was not intentional nor was it done unproffesionally. Tsunade angered Pein by defending Konoha, leadinh him to Nuke the Village. While Minato intentionally chose to save Naruto over Kushina, leading Madara to summon the Kyuubi and destroy Konoha. BGoth Hokage had their Village and its people in mind, and neither could've done any better if they were put in the same scenario. 



> Pain is a Shinobi with huge ego , ofcourse when she yelled at him he wanted to show her her place and prove to her that he's superior and in the end Tsunade is the one who lost.



This is true. But there is no Hokage who could've stopped Pein doing what he did. 



> she as a Hokage needed to be level headed and calm , but what do yuo expect from a Hokage that was vouched for to get the Position by her teammate who HAS a crush on her?



Pein attacked her village, killed her student Shizune, her teammate Jiraiya, a comrade Kakashi, Asuma and many many others within her Village. Then he went and said her Village had not suffered like he had, she is a Hokage and she is supposed to be calm, but even then - how could _anyone_, Hokage or not, stay calm under those circumstances. Minato, Hiruzen, none of them would've been any different. And that is just pathetic, she got her title for a hell of a lot more than Jiraiya having a crush on her, your logic ceases to amaze me. 
and you cant compare the 2 situations between Minato and Tsunade , cause Minato didnt need saving from 16 yr Gennin like Tsunade.



> all these titles he EARNED , he wasn't setting on his butt drinking and gambling all day long , he was involved in dangeorus missions ever since he was young , and after that saved Konoha in the 3rd war , and guarded the Jinchuriki.



So was Tsunade. In fact Tsunade had completed about 400 more missions than Minato, and even then she was away for 20 years after her loved ones were killed. Tsunade won the 2nd Great War for Konoha and aided greatly in the Third one. 



> and it's a no-brainer he'd choose Minato over Tsunade , Minato had all the qualities a Hokage should have and he worked on himself till he became Hokage , he didnt get things handed to him cuz of his grandfather like Tsunade.



/sigh

So did Tsunade. As I've already explained.



> and Hiruzen if he wanted Tsunade he'd sent someone to bring her back and make her 4th Hokage , but he didnt because Minato is better and she's a drunking gambling mess that act on emotion rather than her brain which is what got a lot of Konoha Shinobi's killed and Konoha would've became a small village had Naruto not convince Nagato to revive them.



Tsunade was out of Konoha and had quit as a shinobi, she was never a candidate. I'm saying that if she was in Konoha and was capable of performing ninja duties, Hiruzen may have chosen her over Minato. But of course  I know your going to try and counter this statement with rubbish which I have already addressed.



> Minato is way better than Tsunade , everyone who saw the flashbacks chapters and how Minato acted knows that for sure.



Personal opinion has no place in a debate.



> not to mention Tsunade drugged Jiraiya a Konoha Shinobi , that is something a Hokage never does , but again , what do you expect from someone that got Hokage position handed to them while they were outside the village drinking and gambling?



And this was whenever she quit as a shinobi and lost all hope of protecting Konoha. Yep. She isn't like that anymore, forgive and move on. 



> how none of Minato's actual titles make him better than Tsunade when he earned those titles while Tsunade got them because of her grandfather ?



I'll tell you again, since you didn't read what I wrote

_All these titles were awarded to him after he was given the Kage title, iirc. We are debating whether or not Hiruzen would've passed the title of Hokage onto Tsunade or Minato, assuming Tsunade had still been in Konoha, he wouldn't have had these titles at this stage, no would Hiruzen have referred him as such regardless. And I must say that Minato was not widely referred as them anyway. He was only once referred to as The Destined Child, The Savior, The Finest Shinobi Konoha ever produced and the Genius once in a Decade, by Jiraiya or those within Konoha, no one else recognised him for such. Seemed more like personal opinion of one or a few people within a single area rather than widely known reputation_



> and if Sakumo was such a genius he wouldnt have killed himself or put himself in a tough situations.



Sakumo was the father of Kakashi and admittedly stronger than the Sannin. Enough said. 



> Minato's titles are way better than Tsunade , tsunade's title as princess she got it cuz shes senju and cuz of her grandfather.



You've said this about a million times now. I'm getting bored refuting it. Please read what I write. 



> and Minato's reputation was so strong that Shinobi's think of running away when they face him.



Which still doesn't give him a better reputation than Tsunade.



> while Tsunade's reputation was so strong that Kabuto a Gennin thought he can take her out and he did.



 Oh dear god.

I might just let LB deal with you.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 19, 2011)

Can't deal with someone on my ignore list.


----------



## Shizune (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm confused.

Minato succeeded Hiruzen and Tsunade succeeded Minato.

Why are we discussing whether or not Minato would have been selected over here?


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## Summers (Jul 19, 2011)

Alkonis said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> Minato succeeded Hiruzen and Tsunade succeeded Minato.
> 
> Why are we discussing whether or not Minato would have been selected over here?



What? Does it sound Silly? 
That's because it is.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 19, 2011)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> ...that is..laughable at best. When did Tsunade ever have things handed to her on a silver plate, or be spoiled?


when she got appointed as Hokage despite her getting raped by a Gennin.




> That could be only one of the reasons. Did you not ever stop to think on a symbolic level? A Princess typically represents high authority and power, among other things as well. And no, she became Hokage for her power, reputation and past achievements


Princess represents authority not power , when did you see Princess defends countries?

and what power? , she got stomped by Gennin in Part 1.


> Minato was certainly seen as a great ninja and did indeed have a lot going for him, I suppose you can't jump to any conclusion without revising each characters achievements by that stage first. Firstly, I don't actually recall it being said Minato was more feared than the Sannin, could you link me? He did save Kushina, and he did get a name for himself - the Yellow Flash. He was one of the main reasons Konoha won the Third Shinobi War, however, he has some parallels to Tsunade in that sense. Because she was one of the main reasons Konoha won the _Second_ Shinobi War. As LB quoted from Jiraiya in her essay:
> 
> _"Calm yourself. Tsunade's the only possible choice for the Fifth Hokage...Not only did she contribute greatly towards Konoha's victory during the turbulent era of The [Second] Great War...but there are still none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle or medical ninjutsu. "_
> 
> ...


those achievements are only in medical field , a Hokage is a Fighter , not a healer , and as a fighter , Tsunade got raped by a Gennin , but she got the position anyway thanks to Jiraiya.




> Minatos title sounds cooler, there's a difference. And I've just disproved that Tsunade didn't work for her titles. So no, you're wrong.


not only sounds Cooler , they sound better , Savior > Princess , Flash > Princess , Destined Child > Princess , a Princess is not an impressive title in a Manga where the main thing in it is "Fighting".



> So you're not even going to try and deny my statement?
> 
> ...
> 
> It doesn't matter whose stronger than who, the point was that none of the Sannin were put in fair scenarios, of course they were beaten by opponents who were at least reasonably powerful.


no , only Hebi Sasuke and Oorchimaru were reasonably powerful , Kabuto shouldnt have been able to rape Tsunade , but she's that weak which proves she made the Sannin name worthless , and i think Kabuto mentioned something about that too.



> Personal opinion has no place in a debate.


that's common sense  , since she's the weakest of the Sannin.




> I never said that did I? I believe what I said was Tsunade did not cause Pein to nuke Konoha, anymore than Minato caused Madara to summon the Kyuubi. Both Ninja may have indirectly caused destruction of Leaf, but it was not intentional nor was it done unproffesionally. Tsunade angered Pein by defending Konoha, leadinh him to Nuke the Village. While Minato intentionally chose to save Naruto over Kushina, leading Madara to summon the Kyuubi and destroy Konoha. BGoth Hokage had their Village and its people in mind, and neither could've done any better if they were put in the same scenario.


Mouthing off to Pain is what caused Pain to do what he did despite Pain doing that Jutsu shortens his own life , and Tsunade did yell at him.

Tsunade mistaked Pain for Jiraiya , she thought she could dish anything she says and still get away with it , but thing is , Pain doesnt have a crush on her like Jiraiya.

im baffled that a Hokage puts her village as risk just so she can have the last words , and now ppl are sleeping on the floor and facing poverty cuz Tsunade couldnt keep her mouth shut for 10 minutes.

and no Tsunade didnt have the village in mind when she yelled at Pain , cuz if she did  , she wouldnt have done anything to put their life at risk , anyway i dont blame her since she doesnt measure up to her predecessors anyway.



> This is true. But there is no Hokage who could've stopped Pein doing what he did.


Hashirama and Minato can , Hashirama with his Bijuu Control and Moukton , plus his powerful Genjutsu , and Minato since this is Konoha  he have many many Kunais in there so its impossible to hit Minato in Konoha , plus the back up of Konoha Shinobi for those 2 Hokages.




> Pein attacked her village, killed her student Shizune, her teammate Jiraiya, a comrade Kakashi, Asuma and many many others within her Village. Then he went and said her Village had not suffered like he had, she is a Hokage and she is supposed to be calm, but even then - how could _anyone_, Hokage or not, stay calm under those circumstances. Minato, Hiruzen, none of them would've been any different. And that is just pathetic, she got her title for a hell of a lot more than Jiraiya having a crush on her, your logic ceases to amaze me.


Minato would've been different cuz hes a genius and he has the will of fire so he wont endanger the villagers like tsunade did by yelling at Pain.

i seem to remember Jiraiya vouching to the elders for her to get the position , and Jiriaya didnt see her for many years , so the onnly reason he still remembers her and wants her to get the position is cuz he has a crush on her , cuz there is no way a support Medic Shinobi can defend a village like a Hokage whos a front line fighter , but Jiraiya wasnt thinking logically at the time.
So was Tsunade. In fact Tsunade had completed about 400 more missions than Minato, and even then she was away for 20 years after her loved ones were killed. Tsunade won the 2nd Great War for Konoha and aided greatly in the Third one. 



> Tsunade was out of Konoha and had quit as a shinobi, she was never a candidate. I'm saying that if she was in Konoha and was capable of performing ninja duties, Hiruzen may have chosen her over Minato. But of course  I know your going to try and counter this statement with rubbish which I have already addressed.


Tsunade was also quit and was never a candidate when Hiruzen died , same things , bottom line is she was never considered over Minato , if she was better than Minato , Jiraiya would've asked Hiruzen permission to go bring Tsunade to the village , but Tsunade was not better than Minato at all.


> Personal opinion has no place in a debate.



common sense.

And this was whenever she quit as a shinobi and lost all hope of protecting Konoha. Yep. She isn't like that anymore, forgive and move on. 




> I'll tell you again, since you didn't read what I wrote
> 
> _All these titles were awarded to him after he was given the Kage title, iirc. We are debating whether or not Hiruzen would've passed the title of Hokage onto Tsunade or Minato, assuming Tsunade had still been in Konoha, he wouldn't have had these titles at this stage, no would Hiruzen have referred him as such regardless. And I must say that Minato was not widely referred as them anyway. He was only once referred to as The Destined Child, The Savior, The Finest Shinobi Konoha ever produced and the Genius once in a Decade, by Jiraiya or those within Konoha, no one else recognised him for such. Seemed more like personal opinion of one or a few people within a single area rather than widely known reputation_


even Shii the Raikage's bodyguard recognized Minato , if you count the people that recognized Minato and count the people who recognized Tsunade , the answer will be obvious.

lets count:
Tsunade:  Chiyo , Pain.
Minato: Raikage , Bee , Shii ......etc

Minato's reputation exceeds Tsunade's reputation by far.

Canon.



> Sakumo was the father of Kakashi and admittedly stronger than the Sannin. Enough said.


it was said that his reputation was more than the Sannin as i recall.




> Which still doesn't give him a better reputation than Tsunade.


your right , because in the 3rd war his teammates did all the work while he was a support medic Ninja right?


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## shintebukuro (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:
			
		

> http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mo...e=13&next=true
> Old Lady adviser: Tsunade destroyed the village.
> Daimyou: Should have picked Jiraiya, everybody thought he was better for the job.



Yeah, that's not even close to what the Daimyou was saying.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 19, 2011)

Ugh, I have nothing more to add with you Namikaze Minato, you ignore my statements and bring up ridiculous points which are incapable of being treated respectfully. I will say that Tsunades acheviements stretch past that of her medical skills, hence her being feared for her great strength and her huge mission count. 

As for Tsunade getting Kage over Minato, I thought it would be an interesting scenario to explore, and its had some use as Googleplex and I have presented some useful information to back up either side.


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## Mane (Jul 19, 2011)

Wait, who is this genin who supposedly stomped her in Part 1? Is that meant to be Kabuto? He was hardly genin level, and I would hardly have called that a stomp, despite conditions being in his favour...


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 19, 2011)

I like how some people don't believe Tsunade has Kage-level capabilities on any front, but then they go around and use rank to justify her "miserable performance" during the Sannin fight, and beyond. Just an interesting thought.


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## Summers (Jul 19, 2011)

Mane said:


> Wait, who is this genin who supposedly stomped her in Part 1? Is that meant to be Kabuto? He was hardly genin level, and I would hardly have called that a stomp, despite conditions being in his favour...



Most people Know that, but Some folks fail to see things in context, or just ignore it to suit there needs.

Kabuto was Genin of Konoha,Kabuto was a spy.
He is a Genin the same way Naruto is now a Genin. Unless we are to believe someone who is truly Genin level is Capable of defeating a team of Anbu like Kabuto did.
Naruto is still A Genin but beat Pain. 
Its a silly thing to say. Best to ignore stuff like that from now on.


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## NeoKurama (Jul 19, 2011)

I believe she fits her kage level requirements.


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## Hamaru (Jul 19, 2011)

Tsunade isn't a bad Hokage. If it wasn't for her Kakashi, Lee, Chouji, and Neji would have all died in Part 1 of the manga and the village would have been in a horrible situation. During the Pein invasion there really isn't a comparison to her situation and Naruto's. She had no idea that the attack was coming and her job was to protect as many lives as possible, which she did. If Naruto was in her situation there would have been a lot of people dead since he would not have had a jutsu to keep everyone safe. When it was time to fight Pain Tsunade was out of a lot of chakra. Naruto came on the scene after Deva used a major attack; moreover, he had prep, knowledge given to him (from Tsunade's slug), and full chakra. In fact, it can be argued that if the rolls were reversed Tsunade would do a better job in Naruto's situation than Naruto would have done in her situation.


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## Shizune (Jul 19, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Princess refer to Tsunade being spoiled and gets everything handed to her on a silver platter.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoFD7Ej6NFA&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## principito (Jul 19, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> How would someone else being Hokage have saved Konoha from being turned into a crater by Chou Shinra Tensei? People speak as if it's possible to negate Chou Shinra Tensei.



Raikages speed... Onokis jutsu wouldve worked LONG before chou whatever.....


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## Nigra Bob (Jul 19, 2011)

tsunade dat biatch ass hoe aint gd hokage level cuz she jus legendary sucker fo shizzle ma pizzle on da bizzle

biatch shud b in da kitchen makin fried bbq chickenz yo


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## Reisorr (Jul 19, 2011)

Not a very good thread, wasted effort.


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## Mane (Jul 19, 2011)

summers said:


> Most people Know that, but Some folks fail to see things in context, or just ignore it to suit there needs.
> 
> Kabuto was Genin of Konoha,Kabuto was a spy.
> He is a Genin the same way Naruto is now a Genin. Unless we are to believe someone who is truly Genin level is Capable of defeating a team of Anbu like Kabuto did.
> ...



This is true.


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## SageRafa (Jul 19, 2011)

Minato could've teleported that shit away , SM Naruto would blitz Pain before he goes airbourne or throw two FRS , Hashirama would Mokuton bind him the moment he tries to speak , Raikage would blitz Pain , Oonoki would turned Pain to dust before he reaches max high. 

I'm talking about the situation of Tsunade vs * only * Deva Path when the Chou Shinra Tensei occured .


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 19, 2011)

Teleporting gravity. Huh.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Mane said:


> Wait, who is this genin who supposedly stomped her in Part 1? Is that meant to be Kabuto? He was hardly genin level, and I would hardly have called that a stomp, despite conditions being in his favour...



He was defeated by a genin and his official rank was genin... So...


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## Shizune (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> He was defeated by a genin and his official rank was genin... So...



He was only considered a Genin by Konohagakure.

Among Otogakure he was one of the highest ranked officials.


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## ZiharkXVI (Jul 19, 2011)

Well argued, and i agree.  I don't think there's anything I could add.


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## Mane (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> He was defeated by a genin and his official rank was genin... So...



He was a spy, so his official rank meant nothing. It wasn't a 1v1 fight, so he wasn't defeated by just Naruto; other factors contributed to his loss.

It was pretty obvious that he was above genin level. His feats, hype and DB stats made that clear.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Mane said:


> He was a spy, so his official rank meant nothing. It wasn't a 1v1 fight, so he wasn't defeated by just Naruto; other factors contributed to his loss.
> 
> It was pretty obvious that he was above genin level. His feats, hype and DB stats made that clear.



What other factors might you be talking about?


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## Mane (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> What other factors might you be talking about?



Him having fought prior to that moment, underestimating Naruto, all that jazz. One thing was clear though, he was definately tiers above Naruto. It was evident during the battle.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Mane said:


> Him having fought prior to that moment, underestimating Naruto, all that jazz. One thing was clear though, he was definately tiers above Naruto. It was evident during the battle.



Either way, Tsunade's performance that day was rather pathetic. With all of her battle experience she still couldn't match the performance of a genin.


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## NeoKurama (Jul 19, 2011)

Dat Tsunade.


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## Mane (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Either way, Tsunade's performance that day was rather pathetic. With all of her battle experience she still couldn't match the performance of a genin.



Kabuto, who was jonin level, took on an exhausted Tsunade, and even then, they were roughly equal. In fact, towards the end, Tsunade had the advantage until Kabuto cut himself. I wouldn't really call that pathetic.


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## Dolohov27 (Jul 19, 2011)

motto said:


> *There's a thing that I noticed around these forums..people tend to overcompensate for the weaknesses of  their fav characters with looong threads such as this one*.
> 
> What I learned is that the longer the thread the weaker and useless the character.
> 
> ...


 Agreed.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 19, 2011)

The konoha would have been better off if Tsunade disappeared during the Pain arc. But she does supply good fanservice here and there.


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## Maerala (Jul 19, 2011)

Kakashi's water explosion Jutsu
 Kakashi's water explosion Jutsu

Both Jiraiya and Kabuto acknowledged that Tsunade's years away from combat had weakened her. 

And Kabuto was said to be on par with Part I Kakashi, who was and is one of Konoha's top Jōnin. Why do these weak arguments keep popping up?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Mane said:


> Kabuto, who was jonin level, took on an exhausted Tsunade, and even then, they were roughly equal. In fact, towards the end, Tsunade had the advantage until Kabuto cut himself. I wouldn't really call that pathetic.



Tsunade exhausted herself by trying to kill Kabuto. The fact that she couldn't do it by that point is pathetic in itself don't you think?

This is the same guy who shat himself when Sasuke gave him mean looks.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 19, 2011)

I will just say that when you have to make a thread about some character not being weak and it goes that long, not always but usually it is the contrary, as the feats should speak by themselves.

Isnt it rare we we never have analysis trying to prove Madara EMS, Pain and Minato arent weak? Feats should speak by themselves.


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## Mane (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Tsunade exhausted herself by trying to kill Kabuto. The fact that she couldn't do it by that point is pathetic in itself don't you think?
> 
> This is the same guy who shat himself when Sasuke gave him mean looks.



She tired herself out chasing him since he was running away, and slowed down by the fact that she was attacking (creating ground fissures and such) while doing so. Kabuto's no slouch. So no, I don't really find it pathetic in the slightest.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> I will just say that when you have to make a thread about some character not being weak and it goes that long, not always but usually it is the contrary, as the feats should speak by themselves.
> 
> Isnt it rare we we never have analysis trying to prove Madara EMS, Pain and Minato arent weak? Feats should speak by themselves.



Good point, prove that Minato isn't weak right here and now. You have a 3000 word limit. 



Mane said:


> She tired herself out chasing him since he was running away, and slowed down by the fact that she was attacking (creating ground fissures and such) while doing so. Kabuto's no slouch. So no, I don't really find it pathetic in the slightest.



Come on... At that time Kakashi's/Kabuto's level was below just about every Akatsuki with the possible exception of Hidan, and even Hidan could probably take Kabuto. 

So how can you say that Tsunade is "strong" when she is around the same level as part 1/early part 2 Kabuto?


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## Mane (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Come on... At that time Kakashi's/Kabuto's level was below just about every Akatsuki with the possible exception of Hidan, and even Hidan could probably take Kabuto.
> 
> So how can you say that Tsunade is "strong" when she is around the same level as part 1/early part 2 Kabuto?



There's also the fact that, as Godaime Hokage pointed out, it was heavily suggested that her performance was severly hampered from her being out of action/her lifestyle. Current Tsunade would, most likely, give a better performance than back then.

And since when was she on the same level as Kabuto? His ability to out-run her does not put him on her level. In a straight between the two, with Kabuto intending to fight from the start, she would beaten him without much difficulty. She didn't even get to use her best techniques in her 'battle' against him.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Mane said:


> There's also the fact that, as Godaime Hokage pointed out, it was heavily suggested that her performance was severly hampered from her being out of action/her lifestyle. Current Tsunade would, most likely, give a better performance than back then.
> 
> And since when was she on the same level as Kabuto? His ability to out-run her does not put him on her level. In a straight between the two, with Kabuto intending to fight from the start, she would beaten him without much difficulty. She didn't even get to use her best techniques in her 'battle' against him.



Actually Kabuto defeated her. He won their fight, that's why Naruto and Shizune had to step in. So when I said, around Kabuto's level I meant below. 

And I'm just saying Tsunade is at a level where she is fodder compared to the other kages based on the feats she has presented.


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## Summers (Jul 19, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> I will just say that when you have to make a thread about some character not being weak and it goes that long, not always but usually it is the contrary, as the feats should speak by themselves.
> 
> Isnt it rare we we never have analysis trying to prove Madara EMS, Pain and Minato arent weak? Feats should speak by themselves.



Well Most of the post have been in agreement or praise of the thread, the rest is responses to waffle and Namikaze.

I dont want to read why Pain is an awesome Ninja, and so many posters go on and on and praise him and the other characters you mentioned already, that would be boring. this is new.


I see your point though. I just dont think its the case here. I like that its gone on this long, even though some arguments are kinda silly.
I dont know why Tsunade has been talked about so much recently but I like it. Its good breather from the constant unrelenting Uchiha threads, or Tobi theories, or stuff that turn into battledome.


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## Jak N Blak (Jul 19, 2011)

Katsuya would solo'd Kabuto


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## Mane (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Actually Kabuto defeated her. He won their fight, that's why Naruto and Shizune had to step in. So when I said, around Kabuto's level I meant below.
> 
> And I'm just saying Tsunade is at a level where she is fodder compared to the other kages based on the feats she has presented.



He had to resort to an underhanded tactic that would no longer affect her. How does that put her below his level?

She's not fodder compared to the other kage, although I do think that they are stronger (except Mei who has limited feats).


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## Orochibuto (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Good point, prove that Minato isn't weak right here and now. You have a 3000 word limit.



I just need 2 lines, "flee on sight", defeated the final villain in a skrimish and soloed a war.

With that I am not saying Tsunad is useless, not, she is an excellent medic, if this manga were about medics she would be the top of the top tier, but unfortunately she is in a Shonen.

She is an OK Kage, however it is very biased in my opinion to go and claiming she is the greatest or among the top 2 greatest and definitively utter ridiculous to say she is as great as Minato and Hashirama. Yes, she is an OK Kage, however wankers want people to look at her the same way I do with Minato and Hashirama, they simply dont compare. To achieve something like this Tsunade would have to pull something on the tier of defeating current Kabuto ending the edo tensei threat, of course an all out defeat edoless or out of chakra Kabuto wont count in my eyes.


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## CrazyAries (Jul 19, 2011)

motto said:


> There's a thing that I noticed around these forums..people tend to overcompensate for the weaknesses of  their fav characters with looong threads such as this one.
> 
> What I learned is that the longer the thread the weaker and useless the character.
> 
> ...



Tbh, there are only two positive Tsunade threads currently going in the KL.  Compare that to the anti-Tsunade threads that have been made in the KT almost every week since the war started.  Anyway, what you said in the beginning of the post is an oversimplification.  Even if you hate her, Tsunade still has fans and some of them make threads about her.  That happens with other characters, and they are hated by others, too.  They are free to do this, as others are free to make threads that stand against these characters.  What I find funny, though, is that while some members post in positive threads to say that they hate a certain character, they help to keep such threads going. 

Also, what does Minato have to do with this?



> I am not in complete disagreement with some of the *facts* stated in this thread but I do strongly believe that Tsunade is a weak hokage and Konoha would be better off without her.



You disagree with facts ?  Alrighty then. 

To that last part:  Kakashi in Tsukuyomi hell says hi.



Orochibuto said:


> I will just say that when you have to make a thread about some character not being weak and it goes that long, not always but usually it is the contrary, as the feats should speak by themselves.
> 
> *Isnt it rare we we never have analysis trying to prove Madara EMS, Pain and Minato arent weak?* Feats should speak by themselves.



Why would they need to?  No one considers those three weak at all .  Madara has been shaping up to be the final villain, Pain took on an entire village, and Minato is the benchmark of the main character.  Now, Madara has said that he lost a considerable amount of power after fighting Hashirama, but now he has the Rinnegan and 7 bijuu.  It was understood that he would build up his power to be a formidible opponent for Naruto and Sasuke and EMS has promised to be a powerful upgrade.

Anyway, that is besides the point.  The main aim of this essay was to restate the reasons that Tsunade was ultimately chosen as Godaime Hokage.  While Jiraiya was an excellent choice, he deferred to Tsunade and then reaffirmed his choice in Part 2.  She did take care of the village during reconstruction, approved missions to eliminate Akatsuki members, and her mass healing -- while *defensive* -- was still an act of protection.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 19, 2011)

Mane said:


> She's not fodder compared to the other kage, although I do think that they are stronger (except Mei who has limited feats).



She is fodder to 2 Kages, and fodder to 2 Hokages, if you are not biased you will recognize it.

Onoki - Island Busting
Raikage - Speedblitz with super strenght (this is prior to him losing an arm)

Hokages:

Hashirama - Defeated Madara EMS
Minato - Not need to say

The others are stronger than her but wouldnt rape her, and I think she might be able to pull a win against Mizukage and maybe Tobirama if he couldnt use edo tensei and indeed the strongest guys of Kinkaku Force were Kakashi level.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Mane said:


> He had to resort to an underhanded tactic that would no longer affect her. How does that put her below his level?
> 
> She's not fodder compared to the other kage, although I do think that they are stronger (except Mei who has limited feats).



He had to resort to the tactic because he was fighting with kid gloves on. He couldn't kill her because they needed her to heal Oro remember?

And a victory is a victory either way. Now without any of your speculation of how strong Tsunade could be. Based on her feats can you honestly say that she is as strong as any of the other Kages? Dead or alive?

Based on her performance against Kabuto who was later defeated by Naruto and was terrified by Sasuke.



Orochibuto said:


> She is fodder to 2 Kages, and fodder to 2 Hokages, if you are not biased you will recognize it.
> 
> Onoki - Island Busting
> Raikage - Speedblitz with super strenght (this is prior to him losing an arm)
> ...



Tobirama had space time too, don't forget that. And Mei has two bloodlines, so I highly doubt she is a pushover.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 19, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> we never have analysis trying to prove Madara EMS, Pain and Minato arent weak?


These topics are discussed just as frequently.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 19, 2011)

CrazyAries said:


> Why would they need to?  No one considers those three weak at all .  Madara has been shaping up to be the final villain, Pain took on an entire village, and Minato is the benchmark of the main character.  Now, Madara has said that he lost a considerable amount of power after fighting Hashirama, but now he has the Rinnegan and 7 bijuu.  It was understood that he would build up his power to be a formidible opponent for Naruto and Sasuke and EMS has promised to be a powerful upgrade.



Thats the point of my argument, I was saying that usually when we have threads of fans trying to prove X character is not weak it usually means the contrary specially if it goes that long and I was further using as proof that the clear power houses of the manga has no threads trying to prove they are strong because the feats are self evident. If a character have a thread and the majority of the community considers it weak it usually (not always) mean feats arent self evident and the fans needs to make them note to attempt the community change their mind or try to deny said weakness.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> These topics are discussed just as frequently.



That EMS Madara, Minato, and Pain are not weak?


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## Orochibuto (Jul 19, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Tobirama had space time too, don't forget that. And Mei has two bloodlines, so I highly doubt she is a pushover.



Tobirama and Mei have little to no feats, going by hype "Prime Hiruzen" should rape her too, but as we have zero information on him I decided to exclude him. Mizukage from what we have seen maybe could be defeated, though I may be wrong as she is foreshadowed to have a fight with black zetsu.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 19, 2011)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> These topics are discussed just as frequently.



No, they are totally different. The threads of said characters are measures between each other "Minato would have killed Madara if he had chased him" or " Madara wasnt weaker than Minato" or some times wankery to inflate the character to the level of RS "Madara is as strong as Rikudou Sennin right now" or "Madara EMS didnt lose really against Hashirama".

You have threads trying to put them higher in the top tier category they already are or dispute some things about them. However you have never seen a thread actually trying to prove they arent weak, trash Kages or second rate because not even the most intense hater bar a troll would dare to call them that way, neither no one seem to think of them that way. The general perception is that they are top tiers, the dispute is how much top tier they are.

However in other cases we have characters having threads from fans wanting to prove not that their character is the top of top tiers, but simply that isnt weak at all or second rate and usually against a general population who think so. Usually these type of cases are characters that indeed have these mistakes.


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## Maerala (Jul 19, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> No, they are totally different. The threads of said characters are measures between each other "Minato would have killed Madara if he had chased him" or " Madara wasnt weaker than Minato" or some times wankery to inflate the character to the level of RS "Madara is as strong as Rikudou Sennin right now" or "Madara EMS didnt lose really against Hashirama".
> 
> You have threads trying to put them higher in the top tier category they already are or dispute some things about them. However you have never seen a thread actually trying to prove they arent weak, trash Kages or second rate because not even the most intense hater bar a troll would dare to call them that way, neither no one seem to think of them that way. The general perception is that they are top tiers, the dispute is how much top tier they are.
> 
> However in other cases we have characters having threads from fans wanting to prove not that their character is the top of top tiers, but simply that isnt weak at all or second rate and usually against a general population who think so. Usually these type of cases are characters that indeed have these mistakes.



This particular thread doesn't set out to prove that Tsunade isn't weak, however. It's just an analysis of her time as Hokage in terms of how well she has performed as a leader, not a fighter.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 19, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> This particular thread doesn't set out to prove that Tsunade isn't weak, however. It's just an analysis of her time as Hokage in terms of how well she has performed as a leader, not a fighter.



And I totally agree that she is an OK Kage, however attempts to put her in the same level of Hokageship as Hashirama and Minato Namikaze in either strenght, hokageship or both sound outright, faboyish and ridiculous to me.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 19, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> This particular thread doesn't set out to prove that Tsunade isn't weak, however. It's just an analysis of her time as Hokage in terms of how well she has performed as a leader, not a fighter.



See the obvious problem is that the OP does not address Tsuande's screw ups. Such as her abysmal negotiating skills displayed by her turning an alliance offer into Konoha getting nuked. It's not easy to go from "Let's be allies!" to "Fuck it, I'm nuking you." in just one conversation. She doesn't address how Tsunade lost Konoha's Uchiha clan to Orochimaru despite knowing for a fact that Oro was after Sasuke. 

When she only presents one side of the story it comes off incredibly biased. Yes Tsunade is a good medic, she has that but she is not a good leader nor is she a strong fighter.


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## Maerala (Jul 19, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> And I totally agree that she is an OK Kage, however attempts to put her in the same level of Hokageship as Hashirama and Minato Namikaze in either strenght, hokageship or both sound outright, faboyish and ridiculous to me.



Do we have any information regarding Minato's political actions during his time as Hokage? The only thing I remember about his reign is, of course, that he defended the village when Madara attacked.

Hashirama is another issue entirely. Of course he founded Konoha and practically the entire system of hidden villages, but he didn't have the greatest foresight. He gave away tailed beasts to villages in an attempt to stabilize power among the nations, but it did not prevent the war that broke out soon after that. He convened with the other leaders for peace talks, but the First Shinobi World War happened regardless. According to the databook, the war ended in a ceasefire treaty after all the nations had suffered great damage, which you can likely attribute to Hashirama giving everyone nukes.

And Minato himself told Naruto that so long as the ninja system exists, peace is not possible. So Hashirama, in an effort to create peace... made peace impossible.

And Tsunade, right after becoming Hokage, had to deal with the aftereffects of Orochimaru's invasion, directly caused by Hiruzen's weakness when dealing with Orochimaru when he actually had the chance to kill him.


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## Heli (Jul 20, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Do we have any information regarding Minato's political actions during his time as Hokage? The only thing I remember about his reign is, of course, that he defended the village when Madara attacked.
> 
> *Hashirama is another issue entirely. Of course he founded Konoha and practically the entire system of hidden villages, but he didn't have the greatest foresight. He gave away tailed beasts to villages in an attempt to stabilize power among the nations, but it did not prevent the war that broke out soon after that. *He convened with the other leaders for peace talks, but the First Shinobi World War happened regardless. According to the databook, the war ended in a ceasefire treaty after all the nations had suffered great damage, which you can likely attribute to Hashirama giving everyone nukes.
> 
> ...



On the bolded part, I think this is where the assessment on Hashirama is harsh. Let's say he kept all of the bijuus. We have two scenarios:

1. The other nations slaughter each other as always
2. They still attack Konoha, forcing Konoha to basically annihillate hundreds of thousands to protect itself

I think Hashirama was trying to establish enough of a deterrent that the nations only resorted to small skirmishes at best and avoided large battles. At least that's what I think the author's intent is. That's something to be commended in a way. It would have been much easier for Hashi to keep every tailed beast and given the rest of the world a middle finger, daring them to either kill each other or come die by Konoha's hands.


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## Maerala (Jul 20, 2011)

Heli said:


> On the bolded part, I think this is where the assessment on Hashirama is harsh. Let's say he kept all of the bijuus. We have two scenarios:
> 
> 1. The other nations slaughter each other as always
> 2. They still attack Konoha, forcing Konoha to basically annihillate hundreds of thousands to protect itself
> ...



The bottom line is that Hashirama wasn't some sort of diplomatic god to be put in a pedestal above all others. His quest for peace failed horribly and his negotations with other countries did little, if anything, to prevent war from breaking out. So I don't see the point of claiming that Tsunade is nothing compared to him as far as leadership goes. Combat-wise, I concede, but that wasn't the point this thread brought up.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 20, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> And I totally agree that she is an OK Kage, however attempts to put her in the same level of Hokageship as Hashirama and Minato Namikaze in either strenght, hokageship or both sound outright, faboyish and ridiculous to me.



I know Bro , Minato was stated to be the Greatest Hokage , and Hashirama founded the village.

those 2 Shinobi were loved by Konoha , hell even their enemies admired them.

and their leadership skills is excellent , how Minato guided Kakashi in the 3rd war , and how Hashirama made peace between Senju and Uchiha.

when i research Tsunade , i only see "provoking pain to nuke Konoha , letting Danzo get one up on her and turn elders against her , sending Asuma to fight people that are stronger than him which resulted in his death even though he's her Sensei's son she sacrificed him , also the sasuke situation , how she drugged Jiraiya , how she considered Orochimaru's offer of healing him , her drinking and gambling , also her making a fool of herself in every Kage meeting"

seriously Bro no Kage or Hokage for that matter have screwed up as much as tsunade.


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## Mane (Jul 20, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> He had to resort to the tactic because he was fighting with kid gloves on. He couldn't kill her because they needed her to heal Oro remember?
> 
> And a victory is a victory either way. Now without any of your speculation of how strong Tsunade could be. Based on her feats can you honestly say that she is as strong as any of the other Kages? Dead or alive?
> 
> Based on her performance against Kabuto who was later defeated by Naruto and was terrified by Sasuke.



He had to resort to the tactic because he was desperate and getting outclassed. It's not speculation to say that she no longer has that fear of blood, so that tactic would no longer work. So I don't know where you got the idea that Part 1 Kabuto is better than current Tsunade.

Many past Kage's are featless. I would put her above Mei (from what we know), but below the other current kage's, as well as the previous hokage's.

But, the thing is, Kabuto was tiers above Naruto. Naruto wasn't even close to his level. That same Sasuke defeated Orochimaru during that time period.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 20, 2011)

Mane said:


> He had to resort to the tactic because he was desperate and getting outclassed. It's not speculation to say that she no longer has that fear of blood, so that tactic would no longer work. So I don't know where you got the idea that Part 1 Kabuto is better than current Tsunade.



Not at all, he was fighting with kid gloves on and Jiraiya had just shown up with reinforcements. He simply used his knowledge to defeat her. Why wouldn't he abuse her weakness? 



> Many past Kage's are featless. I would put her above Mei (from what we know), but below the other current kage's, as well as the previous hokage's.



Mei was able to take on Sasuke, something completely out of Tsunade's league. 



> But, the thing is, Kabuto was tiers above Naruto. Naruto wasn't even close to his level. That same Sasuke defeated Orochimaru during that time period.



Actually I'm referring to the pants shitting which occurred before the timeskip. 
And tiers? I don't know about that, he seemed to be defeated pretty easily with only a single blow.

Sure it was basically a tie which would have went in Kabuto's favor if it wasn't for PNJ, but Kabuto was in fact defeated. And it's not much of a surprise since Kabuto stated that taijutsu was his worst talent.


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## Mane (Jul 20, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Not at all, he was fighting with kid gloves on and Jiraiya had just shown up with reinforcements. He simply used his knowledge to defeat her. Why wouldn't he abuse her weakness?



With gloves on?

The reinforcements were not interfering at that time. The fact that he had knowledge when she had none was just another one of the advantages he had against her. Without knowledge of her haemophobia, he would almost certainly have lost.

And, as I said, current Tsunade doesn't have that problem. You have yet to explain why she is below Part 1 Kabuto in ability.



> Mei was able to take on Sasuke, something completely out of Tsunade's league.



Based on what they have shown, Tsunade would defeat Mei in a fight. Mei vs Sasuke was hardly a battle.



> Actually I'm referring to the pants shitting which occurred before the timeskip.
> And tiers? I don't know about that, he seemed to be defeated pretty easily with only a single blow.



Scans to refresh my memory?



> Sure it was basically a tie which would have went in Kabuto's favor if it wasn't for PNJ, but Kabuto was in fact defeated. And it's not much of a surprise since Kabuto stated that taijutsu was his worst talent.



Kabuto thoroughly outclassed Naruto in taijutsu before the rasengan hit. It wasn't even a tie. I'm pretty sure that was the only attack Naruto landed on Kabuto, who also had to deal with multilpe others beforehand.


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## Seraphiel (Jul 20, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Let me clarify. He said that she wasn't a pinnacle shinobi of her time, which is really subject to opinion, as how strong a character is is depended on by one's own interpretation; it is not solely rooted anywhere in the manga nor explicity stated that she isn't a top shinobi of her time. In fact, Jiraiya seems to paint the opposite and imply that she is, when he was clarifying why she was the best option for Hokage.
> 
> Regardless, I saw he was trying to say that she couldn't compare to the previous Hokage before her. I disagree, but I'm not arguing entirely on that front. He was using previous Hokage and saying their incapacitation/deaths would've put her further in line for the title of Godaime Hokage. My point was that one who is dead/retired and was a previous Hokage can not be considered for the position of subsequent Hokage titles. As such, how can one tell me that Tsunade was like the third choice for Godaime Hokage? Aside from Jiraiya, she was the only one mentioned, and all parties agreed without question once Jiraiya mentioned she was the best suited.
> 
> ...



She is good in only one field which unfortunately does not help her case, the reason she was picked for Hokage was because a) they needed one fast and b) konoha really had no other impressive shinobi at the time. She is not the pinnacle of being a ninja just because she is good at healing, unfortunately that can't help her in a fight against the most recent antagonists. 

Hell if we go by feats Sasuke from oro's hideout before absorbing oro would have been on a higher level than her sorry.

She really has not shown anything impressive to make you think she could stand toe to toe with the top shinobi in this manga. And while I have nothing against her as a character I still think that she is fairly unimpressive.


As for the bold part sorry than you are delusional, there was quite a lot of evidence that Pain was there only to get info on Naruto and leave, her insults towards him made him nuke the corrupt village.


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## principito (Jul 20, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> She is good in only one field which unfortunately does not help her case, the reason she was picked for Hokage was because a) they needed one fast and b) konoha really had no other impressive shinobi at the time. She is not the pinnacle of being a ninja just because she is good at healing, unfortunately that can't help her in a fight against the most recent antagonists.
> 
> Hell if we go by feats Sasuke from oro's hideout before absorbing oro would have been on a higher level than her sorry.
> 
> ...



I agree completely with this.

This should be writen in stone somewhere here

Jirayas approval for Tsunade would be the same approval Naruto would have for Sakura... regardless the millions of tiers below they are from their respective peers.

Konohas lack of strong candidates was what made Tunade hokage and was what got Konoha a new "downtown"


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 20, 2011)

Many things to be addressed in due time. Right now, I can't muster up the focus over dominating waves of apathy at some points. But I suppose I must eventually.

I'll say this now, though: Even if you believe Jiraiya nominated Tsunade only out of love (which OP disproves many times over), do you think the Councillors would've agreed out of "love"? Spare me the humour.

Jiraiya stated her qualifications. And unless being capable enough that "no one could stand shoulder to shoulder with [her] in regards to battle and medical ninjutsu" and "handing Konoha the victory [of a international world war]" is not impressive or incredibly hard to come by, then I'd love to see what qualifications would be worthy of any "suitable" Hokage.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 20, 2011)

Who else would be Hokage? Danzo or Naruto


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## Mane (Jul 20, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Kid gloves on, as in taking care not to kill her. You can see him stating that he was trying not to kill her in the link below.



Oh, that's what you mean. He was still trying to put her out of action, and failed to do so. Not that he would have been able to kill her anyway thanks to Sozo Saisei.



> *And btw, summoning requires much more than your normal amount of chakra.Something Naruto didn't need for climbing or walking on water.*
> Actually they did interfere. Also the reason Kabuto gave behind taking advantage of her fear of blood was Jiraiya's presence.



Which, as I said, was another advantage he had against her. Without the knowledge, the fight between them would not have gone the same way. And it's a dirty tactic that would no longer work against current Tsunade.



> *And btw, summoning requires much more than your normal amount of chakra.Something Naruto didn't need for climbing or walking on water.*
> Well partially because Kabuto defeated her. But besides that Tsunade statement that he is stronger and has better senses than she did in her prime.



You're ignoring the circumstances again. Tsunade was clearly above Kabuto's level and would have beaten him in a straight fight. She didn't even resort to her most powerful techniques.

That was a translation error. The actual translation was: _His jutsu instincts and sharpness surpass even my own in my prime..._



> Mei is younger, more attractive, and has two bloodlines which allowed her to take on Sasuke and nearly kill him.



Younger? More attractive (in your opinion)? So what?

Did you forget about the state Sasuke was in after facing the Raikage, Gaara and Samurai? All Mei really did was melt some of the skin of a thoroughly exhausted Sasuke. Had Sasuke been in peak condition, judging from what we saw moments later when he took on Danzo and from the little we've seen from Mei, she would have been stomped. Tsunade would be able to put up a better fight against him, and is certainly stronger than Mei (from what we've seen from her).



> *And btw, summoning requires much more than your normal amount of chakra.Something Naruto didn't need for climbing or walking on water.*
> Oro came...



Is that what you call 'shitting his pants'? He remarked on the strength of Sasuke's chakra.



> So what? Are you saying that it's somehow an excuse for Tsunade's poor performance?



I was pointing out your false claims. Tsunade's performance, which wasn't even poor considering she went toe-to-toe with someone who was claimed to be on Kakashi's level, can be excused by her lifestyle/being out of action, which was stated to have been affecting her ability, and also the fact that she was exhausted while Kabuto was in peak condition.


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## americaoffline (Jul 20, 2011)

I could only read 4 paragraphs, because the red text hurt my eyes. -__-

i like what i saw though.


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## Nitharad (Jul 20, 2011)

I love essays like these, I would be happy and eager to read more if you plan to do more !


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## Big Mom (Jul 20, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> You put Hashirama, Tobirama, Sarutobi, or Minato in that situation, and they'll not only be left with a crater, but hundreds upon hundreds dead.



Or, ya know, they would have killed Pain themselves.



But being honest here, I wouldn't be too surprised if the Elders asked Danzo first, then asked Jiraiya. Danzo most likely didn't accept, in fear of looking too suspicious[allying with Orochimaru to kill Hiruzen].


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## Shizune (Jul 20, 2011)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Or, ya know, they would have killed Pain themselves.



The only Hokage we can completely, for sure expect to have been able to exterminate the Six Paths of Pain before facing _massive_ losses is Hashirama. Minato might have been able to deal with them but thousands would have died and the village would still have been destroyed in the process.

Tobirama, Hiruzen and Danzo do not have the feats to suggest they could even win against the Six Paths of Pain, much less prevent them from killing thousands and destroying the village.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 20, 2011)

Mane said:


> Oh, that's what you mean. He was still trying to put her out of action, and failed to do so. Not that he would have been able to kill her anyway thanks to Sozo Saisei.



Oh I don't know about that... Either way we know it is a lot more difficult for a shinobi to capture another shinobi than it is for a shinobi to kill another shinobi. 



> Which, as I said, was another advantage he had against her. Without the knowledge, the fight between them would not have gone the same way. And it's a dirty tactic that would no longer work against current Tsunade.



Well without the reinforcements he wouldn't have had to have used the tactic. 



> You're ignoring the circumstances again. Tsunade was clearly above Kabuto's level and would have beaten him in a straight fight. She didn't even resort to her most powerful techniques.
> 
> That was a translation error. The actual translation was: _His jutsu instincts and sharpness surpass even my own in my prime..._



Either way Tsunade admitted inferiority. 



> Younger? More attractive (in your opinion)? So what?



Just saying...



> Did you forget about the state Sasuke was in after facing the Raikage, Gaara and Samurai? All Mei really did was melt some of the skin of a thoroughly exhausted Sasuke. Had Sasuke been in peak condition, judging from what we saw moments later when he took on Danzo and from the little we've seen from Mei, she would have been stomped. Tsunade would be able to put up a better fight against him, and is certainly stronger than Mei (from what we've seen from her).



Sasuke was still strong enough to take on Mifune who is on Hanzou's level. So I'm guessing that even after facing the Raikage Sasuke was way out of Tsuande' league. 



> Is that what you call 'shitting his pants'? He remarked on the strength of Sasuke's chakra.



I'd say that Kabuto lost his train of thought and instinctively withdrew away from Sasuke out of fear of Sasuke's chakra. 



> I was pointing out your false claims. Tsunade's performance, which wasn't even poor considering she went toe-to-toe with someone who was claimed to be on Kakashi's level, can be excused by her lifestyle/being out of action, which was stated to have been affecting her ability, and also the fact that she was exhausted while Kabuto was in peak condition.



And since then she has been drinking/signing paper. Not exactly the ideal way to get back in shape is it?


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## Shizune (Jul 20, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Well without the reinforcements he wouldn't have had to have used the tactic.



That is absolutely not true. He was about to use it before anybody else showed up, here.

He realizes she is too durable for him to paralyze and after being struck he compliments her and _moves his hand to grab a kunai_, which he then uses to use her phobia against her. Her attacking his nervous system simply delayed his ability to draw blood until the reinforcements arrive.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Either way Tsunade admitted inferiority.



She commended his skill _in one technique_. It is impressive because, ordinarily, it's not a ninjutsu that can be maintained during combat, and she was commenting that his "sense/awareness" and "sharpness" with _that one technique_ was superior to her own _with that one technique_.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke was still strong enough to take on Mifune who is on Hanzou's level. So I'm guessing that even after facing the Raikage Sasuke was way out of Tsuande' league.



Hanzou has become dramatically weaker from when he fought the Sannin to when he fought Mifune. This was stated and reiterated multiple times and is why Mifune as able to duel him. Please read the fucking manga.


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## Googleplex (Jul 20, 2011)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> It was undoubtedly a high level Space/Time Technique, for it was used by a Hokage after all. But, we can speculate forever on indeed what the technique was or did, but essentially we will never know.



I never intended to use the reductionist approach on each jutsu, rather a holistic approach, as a means to illustrate Tobirama's arguable supremacy over Muu.



> Well then thats settled then. Tobirama has reputation for inventing the Edo Tensei. His accomplishments aren't significantly better than that of any of the other Kage, however. If Mu goes invisible and uses Dust Cubes Tobirama is toast, he has nothing to counter such a combination. I suppose it could be said that Tobirama has something to defeat Muu with, much like it _could be said_ that Tenten has something to defeat Madara with, albeit a very low chance.



Looking at it from a battledome-esque fashion, one could say Tobirama could use constant Suiton or even use Edo Tensei and use his own brother (assumingly) as back up; however we lack enough to speculate much on Tobirama in a battledome manner (apparently he had two big jutsu he didn't use).
The analogy including Madara and Tenten is hardly an illustration as even with battledome (reductionist) or library (holistic) logic, Tenten has literally nothing to defeat Madara, unless that's what you were implying in regards to Tobirama and Muu?



> You assume. There isn't actually anything stating this. For all we know Orochimaru could have used his usual techniques in order to escape Jiraiya. As I said, when he defeated Jiraiya, it was in a position where evasion was impossible. If Jiraiya was put on solid ground the end result would not have been the same. Where did it mention talent? And no, not really. Orochimaru created many forbidden jutsu through experimentation, of which increased his abilities and gave him a form of what he called immortality. Jiraiya held many many techniques of which had variation, such as the Summoning Technique, Needle Jizo or Barrier Dome Method. He also trained under the Toads and learned to use Sage Mode. Tsunade was the worlds greatest medic and could shatter boulders with her fists by inventing a unique fighting style with a form of medical ninjutsu. She could regrow organs and limbs with her S Rank Seal. Overall, no one rises above the other in talent, for they are exceptional in talent. Jiraiya would be the only one who noticably rises above the others in power.



Its also reasonable to assume Orochimaru and Jiraiya did fight, as in the Sannin _fight_, Orochimaru was compelled to say that the difference between he and Jiraiya was still present; surely they had to fight once before for Orochimaru to infer this? Even more so, surely Orochimaru would've had to defeated Jiraiya to infer this?
Also it can be said that Jiraiya failed on bringing Orochimaru back in the same way Naruto failed with bringing Sasuke back; through battle.

Looking at them overall, Orochimaru's were the most surreal, immortality seems to have that effect compared to Tsunade's temp immortality with an immediate price and Jiraiya's limited Sage Mode mastery.

"The Professor, Sandaime Hokage even said of him: even with my intelligence, I can't possibly compete with such talent." "

Hiruzen didn't feel he could compete with him, no reference to his age at all; that speaks volumes about Orochimaru's individual talent, I'd say.




> Not really. Kushina was part of Konoha whenever he saved her, he was saving her because she was the Jinchuuriki and she was innocent, not because she used to be part of the Whirlpool country. Also, I'd be inclined to say Minato was not the only ninja who protected the Kyuubi, for even before and after his reign, the Kyuubi failed to ever be taken hostage or be killed by enemy




He was the only person who bothered going by Kushina, the whirlpool country thing wouldn't be a big factor, I believe, but probably a 'trinket' that'd stick out.
However, before his reign the Kyuubi was never taken hostage because it was within Hashirama's wife, there was an obligation. During his reign, he used sealing jutsu to ensure his wife would always be protected as per se Madara (showed dedication to protect Konoha too, not letting the Kyuubi fall away from Konoha) even after his rein the fact the Kyuubi isn't taken is due to his own doing, largely. 
That would all be factored in along with the other factors such as reputation and power; which is why I think Minato would've likely gotten the title over Tsunade if there was a choice at the time.




> Well, naturally the reason Tsunade left Konoha in the first place, was because many of her loved ones had died. Furthermore, Tsunade is perhaps more likely to have developed the idea that Hokage was a ' fools job ' during the 20 years that she had left Konoha, not immediately after she left. Assuming her loved ones hadn't died and she was able to stay in Konoha, she would've been in her regular state of mind and arguably more likely to get the position than Minato.



Arguably, however, she was probably an afterthought, to tell Jiraiya that Hiruzen always intended he should've been Hokage implicates she had the vibe that she never got that vibe from Sarutobi; this lends credibility to the notion that Minato would've still been more likely to get it.
Perhaps its due to Jiraiya's stronger Will of Fire which likely transferred to Minato going by the things he did for the sake of Konoha.




> Tsunade is not as strong as Minato or Hashirama, who could teleport around, or have Bijuu do their bidding in battle, however, I can easily argue that she is stronger than Tobirama. That she is around equal with Orochimaru and at least stronger than _Old_ Hiruzen. And yes, true. Of course, Jiraiya admits Tsunade may have been the better choice.



Though you could counter argue and reference Tobirama's big three {space-time, Suiton and Edo Tensei}, with one we don't know about it'd be a safe bet to postulate Tobirama as Tsunade's hardly shown comparable reputation or feats bar super strength- you can even harp onto Tobirama's attributes he has for being a Senju to strengthen the case.
We cannot say Orochimaru's equal to Tsunade as it'd be hard for one to stomach comparing their hype and feats.
Old Hiruzen, that's debatable but one could still make a case.

However, this is where the issue comes in: some would be ragging on Tsunade because they try to directly compare her fighting ability/power to Hokage/Hokage candidates whom were famous for their fighting ability/power-- Tsuande was famous for super strength and medical Ninjutsu.
She's shown you don't need to be the strongest in the village to be a good Hokage.


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## Big Mom (Jul 20, 2011)

Alkonis said:


> The only Hokage we can completely, for sure expect to have been able to exterminate the Six Paths of Pain before facing _massive_ losses is Hashirama. Minato might have been able to deal with them but thousands would have died and the village would still have been destroyed in the process.
> 
> Tobirama, Hiruzen and Danzo do not have the feats to suggest they could even win against the Six Paths of Pain, much less prevent them from killing thousands and destroying the village.



But they do posses the hype to kill Pain. Going by hype, Prime Hiruzen would have stomped Pain, and Danzo could as well.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 21, 2011)

Alkonis said:


> That is absolutely not true. He was about to use it before anybody else showed up, here.
> 
> He realizes she is too durable for him to paralyze and after being struck he compliments her and _moves his hand to grab a kunai_, which he then uses to use her phobia against her. Her attacking his nervous system simply delayed his ability to draw blood until the reinforcements arrive.



Drawing a kunai is common for a ninja in battle, it does not indicate that they are about to cut their wrists. And his words of drawing enough blood for her to be on the brink of death make it sound like he planned to attack her not himself. 

As Kabuto had proven earlier he could relatively easily land attacks on Tsunade.  



> She commended his skill _in one technique_. It is impressive because, ordinarily, it's not a ninjutsu that can be maintained during combat, and she was commenting that his "sense/awareness" and "sharpness" with _that one technique_ was superior to her own _with that one technique_.



Finally, Danzo would, if the situation called for it, be willing to put his life on the line to stop a threat to Konoha, which he showed us. 
Nothing on that page supports anything you have said...



> Hanzou has become dramatically weaker from when he fought the Sannin to when he fought Mifune. This was stated and reiterated multiple times and is why Mifune as able to duel him. Please read the fucking manga.



Could you point out to me where it was stated?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 21, 2011)

>"You're afraid of blood, right? I'll show you some now!"

Of course, he wasn't at all going to bother using her phobia against her at that point.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 21, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> >"You're afraid of blood, right? I'll show you some now!"
> 
> Of course, he wasn't at all going to bother using her phobia against her at that point.



here
"It's bad even for me to go against two of the three great ninjas." which implies that he cut his wrist in response to Jiraiya's arrival in order to remove Tsunade from the fight.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 21, 2011)

Did you see Jiraiya anywhere near them, or even on the scene, when he decided to use his phobia at first? Please tell me you did. I want to see what you fabricate next.


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## Big Mom (Jul 21, 2011)

But Tsunade lacked the military strength/ability to fight in a war. She was too easy with the villagers, hence why Sasuke was able to leave. Danzo wouldn't have let that happen. Though Danzo lacked compasion, which Tsunade had going for her.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 21, 2011)

She lacked military strength and ability to fight in the war, despite having fought in the Second Great War.

Right.


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## Big Mom (Jul 21, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> She lacked military strength and ability to fight in the war, despite having fought in the Second Great War.
> 
> Right.



Fought in, and being able to wage, are two different things. Tsunade wouldn't have the heart to wage a war against a village. Besides, it would have been far better if someone else was Hokage during the Pain Invasion, so when Tsunade sacrificed herself to heal the villagers, they wouldn't be out of a Hokage.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Fought in, and being able to wage, are two different things. Tsunade wouldn't have the heart to wage a war against a village.



Her ideals are peaceful. Why would she need to wage war in the first place? Despite that, did she not wage war on Akatsuki, the only Kage to do so?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 21, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Did you see Jiraiya anywhere near them, or even on the scene, when he decided to use his phobia at first? Please tell me you did. I want to see what you fabricate next.



I'm not saying that he didn't plan on taking advantage of her phobia, I am saying that he didn't plan to cut his wrist to do it. 

Furthermore I find it rather amusing that after Kabuto told her he was going to take advantage of her phobia she pushed Jiraiya aside and rushed at Kabuto anyways. It's just one of the many examples of her not thinking her actions through. Which is a poor trait of just about any leader.


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## Big Mom (Jul 21, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Her ideals are peaceful. Why would she need to wage war in the first place? Despite that, did she not wage war on Akatsuki, the only Kage to do so?



Because sometimes it comes to leave you no choice but to wage war. And I don't think Tsunade could lead the village through a war.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 21, 2011)

@Hiruzen: She systematically planned and executed the plan to protect Konoha, with Naruto acting as the main fighting power. She has systematically hunted, pursued and eliminated Akatsuki, rectified missions when need by to help her allies, and called for back up when needed. She makes the decisions that need to be made, and does all she can to ensure her shinobi succeed, to the point it's left up to them whether or not they do. Yet she can't lead through a war?

@AKMW: Because fighting her own battles is a poor trait of a leader. Cool story bro. You (purposefully, because I know you don't forget) ignore that one incredibly deadly threat to Konoha and his assistant were before her. It was her duty to eliminate them, before they can pose a threat to the village once more. While they fled, Orochimaru has since failed to attack Konoha again. Kabuto's on a whole nother level, now.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 21, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> She lacked military strength and ability to fight in the war, despite having fought in the Second Great War.
> 
> Right.



when did she fight in the 2nd war?

we saw her being requested to heal her lover Dan when he was dying and she wasnt fighting in those panels.

also in the fight against Hanzo , her teammates did all the work while she was their support ninja and medic.

also the fact that Chiyo mentions Tsunade's contributions in 2nd war as inventing an antidote to her poison further proves that her role in 2nd war wasnt of combat  , but that of healing and support only.


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## Distance (Jul 21, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> also in the fight against Hanzo , her teammates did all the work while she was their support ninja and medic.



You're just speculating that because she was well known for medical ninjutsu that's all she did during the war. Nothing is wrong have such speculations but saying that her team did all the "work", and I guess you mean fighting, isn't a wise thing to say. We've seen Tsunade in combat before, so you should know that she was well and very capable of fighting during the encounter with Hanzo.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 21, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> @AKMW: Because fighting her own battles is a poor trait of a leader. Cool story bro. You (purposefully, because I know you don't forget) ignore that one incredibly deadly threat to Konoha and his assistant were before her. It was her duty to eliminate them, before they can pose a threat to the village once more.



Rushing face first into a world of anal rape is a poor trait for a leader. She knew about her weakness, she knew that Kabuto was going to use it against her, she should have figured out that she was going to get owned. 

And while Oro was a threat it's not like Tsunade had the means to kill him. She hit him with her best attack and he got right back up. From years of experience at his side she should have known she couldn't kill him.



> While they fled, Orochimaru has since failed to attack Konoha again. Kabuto's on a whole nother level, now.



Hold up, are you crediting Tsunade with Sasuke killing Oro? Well I guess Tsuande's failure as a Hokage to protect the villagers did result in Sasuke eliminating a number of threat to Konoha.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 21, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> when did she fight in the 2nd war?
> 
> we saw her being requested to heal her lover Dan when he was dying and she wasnt fighting in those panels.
> 
> ...



Obviously when she 1.) lead the team that Dan was on, in a mission, 2.) fought against Hanzou, and 3.) on her long list of missions, obviously completed before she left Konoha, which was after the Second War. 

Provide proof that Tsuande did nothing while just healing them. Last I checked, healing doesn't come with being warranted as "The three of you are strong"; note it's not "the two of you are strong and the bitch in the background is quite useful". 




Perhaps you also failed to notice it, but Tsunade had scratches on her face, was dirty, and also exhausted like her teammates. That doesn't come from being support, nor does it come from letting her teammates do all the work.

Chiyo stated that Tsunade was the reason she failed to make much of an impact on the war because she countered everything she did. One interaction between an opposing enemy does not correlate with her role during the entire war. We saw her on the battlefield, twice. We heard what she did with Chiyo in a flashback. But suddenly, that's the only thing you care to remember. How selective of you.

I'm still waiting for your proof that shows she only sat and healed. Go on, provide this "clear, irrefutable" proof that you keep talking about. If it's so clear, there wouldn't have been dispute in the first place. Next you'll argue that the Naruto manga focuses on samurais instead of ninja.




AKmyWaffle said:


> Rushing face first into a world of anal rape is a poor trait for a leader. She knew about her weakness, she knew that Kabuto was going to use it against her, she should have figured out that she was going to get owned.
> 
> And while Oro was a threat it's not like Tsunade had the means to kill him. She hit him with her best attack and he got right back up. From years of experience at his side she should have known she couldn't kill him.



And if she had walked away and let him wreak havoc, what would you have said then? Even more vulgarities than you do now. You've no leg to stand on; someone fights for their village, they're stupid. Someone fights despite limitations, they're not a good leader. I suppose standing up for your village is now the dishonourable thing to do, if you're not strong enough to face a much deadlier threat. No, it seems you don't know the value of courage or love people have for something precious to them.




> Hold up, are you crediting Tsunade with Sasuke killing Oro? Well I guess Tsuande's failure as a Hokage to protect the villagers did result in Sasuke eliminating a number of threat to Konoha.



Putting words in my mouth doesn't help your case. It makes you look desperate to try to control the conversation and score some points in any way possible.


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## Shizune (Jul 21, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> when did she fight in the 2nd war?



 Really man?



Namikaze Minato said:


> also in the fight against Hanzo , her teammates did all the work while she was their support ninja and medic.



Making shit up.


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## Summers (Jul 21, 2011)

Alkonis said:


> Really man?
> 
> 
> 
> Making shit up.



That's why I stopped responding to them.


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## Big Mom (Jul 21, 2011)

I think a better Hokage would be a mixture of Danzo and Tsunade. Tsunade lacked the will to lead the village through the war and to be strict, but she had compasion, understanding, and people trusted her. The exact opposite of Danzo.


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## Big Mom (Jul 21, 2011)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Where does this come from?



Because she has never showed the ability, nor does she have the ability. Its funny, I said one thing against Tsunade and you start to get defensive like I was insulting you. Oh boy.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 21, 2011)

So because she was never seen in a war leading it as Hokage (due to her successfully doing her job to keep the peace ), she lacks the capability to lead during a war.

Huh. Flawless logic.


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## Big Mom (Jul 21, 2011)

Tsunade is a pacifist, just like Itachi. Itachi couldn't lead the village through a war either. They lack the heart to do so.


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## Googleplex (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> But they do posses the hype to kill Pain. Going by hype, Prime Hiruzen would have stomped Pain, and Danzo could as well.



Don't go into the hype department, Pain has tons of hype to suggest he is above the shinobi you mentioned. 
One notable one is having the power to keep Akatsuki, including Orochimaru at some point, in check; the same Orochimaru that Hiruzen believed he could not take on, no reference to age. 

Danzo > Pain is laughable at best as hype _and_ feats suggest the direct opposite.

So you cannot use Pain, *the strongest man in Akatuki* at the time, to illustrate the point that Tsunade is a bad Hokage.



Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> But Tsunade lacked the military strength/ability to fight in a war. She was too easy with the villagers, hence why Sasuke was able to leave. Danzo wouldn't have let that happen. Though Danzo lacked compasion, which Tsunade had going for her.



She's fought in a war though.
Sasuke didn't leave because of Tsunade's rule, we had chapters building up to Sasuke's departure: we know Sasuke left for his own reasons, not because of Konoha's system; Konoha was too damaged to do anything.
In fact Orochimaru would've likely sent stronger forces if Konoha was fit and fine at that juncture.

Danzo may've not let that happen, however it was *Danzo's* actions which ultimately led to Sasuke leaving. Danzo the Hokage who suggests that Konoha should kill off its strongest bloodline users is good for militaristic purposes?




Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Tsunade is a pacifist, just like Itachi. Itachi couldn't lead the village through a war either. They lack the heart to do so.



Itachi led ANBU squads at the age of 13, that discredits your point. By your logic Itachi would've been incapable of doing that because of his kind heart; arguably Tsunade won't be hindered by this as well.



Namikaze Minato said:


> when did she fight in the 2nd war?
> 
> we saw her being requested to heal her lover Dan when he was dying and she wasnt fighting in those panels.
> 
> ...



During the second ninja war.

We saw a fragment of a long war. 

_Chapter 488_
_Chapter 488_
She looks too beat up for someone whose supposedly let her teammates do the work.

Her _main_ role wasn't combat, though the Hanzo panels suggest she did get in when she needed to.


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## Xerces (Jul 21, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> So because she was never seen in a war leading it as Hokage* (due to her successfully doing her job to keep the peace* ), she lacks the capability to lead during a war.
> 
> Huh. Flawless logic.





Successful job keeping the peace? During Hiruzen's rule there was at least 12 years of peace between the nations. In less than 3 years under Tsunade's rule, a 4th Ninja world war was broken out, and her village has been wiped off the face of the world, literally. 

All she has accomplished during her few years of rule, has been sitting behind her desk, blindly sending teams into missions they are not qualified for. She is an embarrassment to the title of Kage.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 21, 2011)

Xerces said:


> Successful job keeping the peace? During Hiruzen's rule there was at least 12 years of peace between the nations. In less that 3 years under Tsunade's rule, a 4th Ninja world war was broken out, and her village has been wiped off the face of the world, literally.
> 
> All she has accomplished during her few years of rule, has been sitting behind her desk, blindly sending teams into mission they are not qualified for. She is an embarrassment to the title of Kage.



Hiruzen's reign had two world wars. Of course after war comes peace. Tsunade kept the peace for quite a while, and brought Konoha back to status after it being decimated. Not to mention that the war was for Jinchuuriki, as opposed to something that Konoha/Tsunade herself did. It's a world war, not just a "war inspired by Konoha", so your point, while mediocre trolling and ignorant of the manga, are irrelevant by the same virtue.

principito, when you quote a post that's bashing her and say a thread that attempts to logically prove Tsunade's status as an excellent Hokage, applauded by most and proven by me, is "terrible" and "takes up space", you're seen as a troll. You're also seen as someone opposed to and vilifying logic. It's clear you dislike her, no, hate her, but unless you can logically debate your points as opposed to "lol she blew up Konoha, what a loser", I suggest you leave the thread.


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## Naruko (Jul 21, 2011)

Chill out guys. You don't like a character (or poster) then don't post in threads about them. The less activity a thread gets, the faster it dies. If others keep posting in it, *they* like it so let them enjoy their discussion. Stop getting off topic and complaining about this stuff, life's too short to get hung up on things like this ok?

Post on topic, and politely, or go to another thread or section - there are plenty out there


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## `Monster (Jul 21, 2011)

Good God I love you.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 21, 2011)

I'm thinking of doing one regarding her influence in the Narutoverse.  And perhaps why she's better suited for Hokage than other candidates.


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## Mane (Jul 21, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Oh I don't know about that... Either way we know it is a lot more difficult for a shinobi to capture another shinobi than it is for a shinobi to kill another shinobi.



Not drastically in this case, since it is very easy to put a shinobi out of action during a fight without killing them, especially with the techniques Kabuto had available to him. He wasn't necessarily holding back, since he was trying to push her to the brink of death. She was just too powerful for his attempts.



> Well without the reinforcements he wouldn't have had to have used the tactic.



He wouldn't have won anything, even if they didn't come. If the worst came to the worst, Katsuya and Sozo Saisei would have guaranteed her the win.



> Either way Tsunade admitted inferiority.



But not in strength or combat ability.



> Just saying...



Ok.



> Sasuke was still strong enough to take on Mifune who is on Hanzou's level. So I'm guessing that even after facing the Raikage Sasuke was way out of Tsuande' league.



I wasn't claiming she was better than Sasuke, I was claiming that she was better than Mei.



> I'd say that Kabuto lost his train of thought and instinctively withdrew away from Sasuke out of fear of Sasuke's chakra.



That's funny, I didn't see any of that in the scan. That's your interpretation I suppose. I saw him chastise Sasuke, and he was then taken back by the strength of his chakra. His chakra was strong enough to give Orochimaru an orgasm seconds later, so I'm guessing it was something noteworthy.



> And since then she has been drinking/signing paper. Not exactly the ideal way to get back in shape is it?



Who's to say she hasn't been training while Hokage? Seems likely. We know for a fact that she has been training others.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 21, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> And if she had walked away and let him wreak havoc, what would you have said then? Even more vulgarities than you do now. You've no leg to stand on; someone fights for their village, they're stupid. Someone fights despite limitations, they're not a good leader. I suppose standing up for your village is now the dishonourable thing to do, if you're not strong enough to face a much deadlier threat. No, it seems you don't know the value of courage or love people have for something precious to them.



I would have complimented her for keeping her cool and knowing her limits, an extremely important quality for a leader to have. One must know when to attack and when to retreat, there is no honor in getting your troops massacred. 

A leader must put the lives on those who depend on him or her first. Honor or not their survival comes first, something Tsunade clearly doesn't know. Her willingness to sacrifice those below her is somewhat frighting. 



> Putting words in my mouth doesn't help your case. It makes you look desperate to try to control the conversation and score some points in any way possible.



But you did imply that Tsunade deserves credit for Orochimaru not attacking Konoha. When clearly Sasuke was the reason why he didn't do so, so how am I putting words in your mouth?


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## Xerces (Jul 21, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> But you did imply that Tsunade deserves credit for Orochimaru not attacking Konoha. When clearly Sasuke was the reason why he didn't do so, so how am I putting words in your mouth?



To elaborate on your point, any rational reader should be able to see that *Sasuke has eliminated more of Konoha's enemies than Tsunade herself.* 

Even with sufficient warning from Jiraiya, Tsunade's irresponsibility and weakness allowed Danzo to become an interim Hokage, which facilitated a brief _ROOT_ uprising. She is damn lucky an Uchiha was there to clean up her mess for her.


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## Puppetry (Jul 21, 2011)

Xerces said:


> To elaborate on your point, any rational reader should be able to see that *Sasuke has eliminated more of Konoha's enemies than Tsunade herself.*



You haven't actually supported this statement, you've merely proposed a statement concerning someone who could never be Hokage, and who has no desire to hold that position. To top if off, you then stated all rational readers should see things from your perspective.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 22, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> You haven't actually supported this statement, you've merely proposed a statement concerning someone who could never be Hokage, and who has no desire to hold that position. To top if off, you then stated all rational readers should see things from your perspective.



It's not just his perspective. It is basically fact that Sasuke has defeat more of Konoha's enemies than Tsunade has. 

Oro, Deidara, and Danzou. If you credit Sasuke with killing any one of them then you obviously have to admit that Sasuke did kill more of Konoha's enemies than Tsunade because she hasn't killed any.


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## Hero (Jul 22, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> It's not just his perspective. It is basically fact that Sasuke has defeat more of Konoha's enemies than Tsunade has.
> 
> Oro, Deidara, and Danzou. If you credit Sasuke with killing any one of them then you obviously have to admit that Sasuke did kill more of Konoha's enemies than Tsunade because she hasn't killed any.



Well the Hokage can't exactly leave the village anyway. So the way she killed them was through her shinobi.

I believe LB stated that in the OP.


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## Puppetry (Jul 22, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> It's not just his perspective. It is basically fact that Sasuke has defeat more of Konoha's enemies than Tsunade has.
> 
> Oro, Deidara, and Danzou. If you credit Sasuke with killing any one of them then you obviously have to admit that Sasuke did kill more of Konoha's enemies than Tsunade because she hasn't killed any.



You're not understanding my argument, or this thread. The purpose of this thread is to show Tsunade's capability as Hokage. This includes leading her people against Akatsuki. Thus, most victories against Akatsuki by Konoha shinobi are relevant to this thread, as she indirectly caused their deaths.

She caused the deaths of:

Sasori
Hidan
Kakuzu
Pain

Kisame was defeated by a Konoha ninja, but she didn't play any part in that.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 22, 2011)

Mane said:


> Not drastically in this case, since it is very easy to put a shinobi out of action during a fight without killing them, especially with the techniques Kabuto had available to him. He wasn't necessarily holding back, since he was trying to push her to the brink of death. She was just too powerful for his attempts.



It is a huge disadvantage for Kabuto. 



> He wouldn't have won anything, even if they didn't come. If the worst came to the worst, Katsuya and Sozo Saisei would have guaranteed her the win.



Not really, Sozo Saisei is just a huge waste of chakra. It's not like her lack of speed would suddenly disappear and she would be able to land a hit. She would just burn out her chakra and lose when it runs out. 



> But not in strength or combat ability.



She literally said "strength" 



> I wasn't claiming she was better than Sasuke, I was claiming that she was better than Mei.



Mei was holding her own against Sasuke. Her volley of attacks nearly killed him.  



> That's funny, I didn't see any of that in the scan. That's your interpretation I suppose. I saw him chastise Sasuke, and he was then taken back by the strength of his chakra. His chakra was strong enough to give Orochimaru an orgasm seconds later, so I'm guessing it was something noteworthy.



Indeed, Kabuto went from "Yo bitch you better listen up" to "Oh shit fuck damn shit fuck!"



> Who's to say she hasn't been training while Hokage? Seems likely. We know for a fact that she has been training others.



Well between her drinking, signing papers, and training genin I would imagine that her day was packed. When would she have had time to put in some serious training? 

Fucking over a village's economy and military strength takes time and effort. But Tsunade sure as hell managed to ruin both in only 3 years.



Fireworks said:


> Well the Hokage can't exactly leave the village anyway. So the way she killed them was through her shinobi.
> 
> I believe LB stated that in the OP.



No, she simply didn't kill anybody. Going by that logic Tobi has killed 50k Shinobi in a day, as well as every single shinobi Akatsuki has killed.  



Puppetry said:


> You're not understanding my argument, or this thread. The purpose of this thread is to show Tsunade's capability as Hokage. This includes leading her people against Akatsuki. Thus, most victories against Akatsuki by Konoha shinobi are relevant to this thread, as she indirectly caused their deaths.
> 
> She caused the deaths of:
> 
> ...



Uh no, the people who caused those deaths were:
Chiyo + Sakura
Asuma + Kakashi + Shikamaru
Shikamaru + Kakashi + Naruto 
Jiraiya + Kakashi + Naruto
Tsunade had jack shit to do with them. You see to lead you actually have to do something, which is something Tsunade did not do. For example, issue orders, come up with plans, organize people, or even rally your troops. You see how Tsunade hasn't done any of that?


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## Puppetry (Jul 22, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Uh no, the people who caused those deaths were:
> Chiyo + Sakura
> Asuma + Kakashi + Shikamaru
> Shikamaru + Kakashi + Naruto
> ...



No, to lead you give orders. She gave orders to nearly all those people aside from Chiyo.


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## Hero (Jul 22, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, she simply didn't kill anybody. Going by that logic Tobi has killed 50k Shinobi in a day, as well as every single shinobi Akatsuki has killed.
> 
> 
> 
> ,



Then you're right about that. But you're getting things confused. 

The fact of the matter is, she initiated the kill. She caused it. However, the people she sent/ordered did the killing.

You Madara logic is right by that standard then because that is what we're tying to say. She has killed any Akatsuki they killed.


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## Xerces (Jul 22, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> Then you're right about that. But you're getting things confused.
> 
> The fact of the matter is,* she initiated the kill. She caused it.* However, the people she sent/ordered did the killing.



*She has done no such thing.  *It is true that Tsunade has given preliminary orders in the past, but to correlate those orders to actual enemy deaths is laughable. 


Tsunade gives orders to 'save' Gaara. Any strategic planning and improvisational tactics during the mission where carried out and excecuted by the team leaders and their respective shinobi. Furthermore, any Akatsuki deaths during the 'Rescue Gaara' mission, are in no way directly influenced by Tsunade's orders.

Tsunade gave orders to 'bring Sasuke back'. Again, any strategic planning was done by the team leader, Yamato. Tsunade in no way directly influenced the outcome of _any_ battle during this mission, due to utter lack of knowledge of chance events and variables.

Jiraiya located the whereabouts of the Akatsuki leader, independatly of Tsunade. Furthermore, Tsunade carelessly lets her friend walk off to his own death. 

I understand that Tsunade can give 'orders', but to use that as justification for Tsunade's role in enemy removal is ridiculous, and pathetic. Any monkey sitting behind a chair can blindly give out orders, but it is the shinobi that ultimately determine the outcome of the mission. Afterall, it is not the president of a country that is awarded a medal for bravery during war; it is the soldier himself.


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## Mane (Jul 22, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> It is a huge disadvantage for Kabuto.



Not really, for the reason I gave.

And I wouldn't even nearly compare that to the huge disadvantage Tsunade was at.



> Not really, Sozo Saisei is just a huge waste of chakra. It's not like her lack of speed would suddenly disappear and she would be able to land a hit. She would just burn out her chakra and lose when it runs out.



She wasn't too slow to land hits on Kabuto before, or land a hit on Orochimaro later.

And there's still Katsuya. Kabuto wasn't a big enough threat for her to pull out her best techniques, which should say something.



> She literally said "strength"



It was a mistranslation, as I've said. The actual translation was:_ His jutsu instincts and sharpness surpass even my own in my prime..._



> Mei was holding her own against Sasuke. Her volley of attacks nearly killed him.



No, she was holding her own against an exhausted Sasuke who couldn't even fight back due to the condition he was in, as she admitted herself. Anyone could 'hold their own' against someone who was in too much pain to fight back, not to menton that she had outside help at the start. Tsunade, from what we've seen, is much better than her.



> Indeed, Kabuto went from "Yo bitch you better listen up" to "Oh shit fuck damn shit fuck!"





More like he went to: "wow, this is strong chakra", and Orochimaro thought the same.



> Well between her drinking, signing papers, and training genin I would imagine that her day was packed. When would she have had time to put in some serious training?



Did we have a day-to-day commentary of her life? It's just as likely that she trained as Hokage as it is that the previous Hokage's did. Not to mention that she would have been training herself while training others. In other words, current Tsunade is no longer 'out of action'.



> Fucking over a village's economy and military strength takes time and effort. But Tsunade sure as hell managed to ruin both in only 3 years.



Erm, ok?


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 22, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> No, to lead you give orders. She gave orders to nearly all those people aside from Chiyo.



Leading involves actively giving orders, however Tsunade not only didn't do that much but she also barely kept in contact if she even kept contact with the teams she sent out. For example, would you give President George W. Bush the credit for killing Osama Bin Laden? 



Fireworks said:


> Then you're right about that. But you're getting things confused.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, she initiated the kill. She caused it. However, the people she sent/ordered did the killing.
> 
> You Madara logic is right by that standard then because that is what we're tying to say. She has killed any Akatsuki they killed.



Your logic is extremely flawed. By that logic Hiruzen is responsible for defeating the Kyuubi and Tobi since he ordered Minato to defend Konoha. 

Your attempt to give Tsunade credit for something she did not do is not only funny, but also shows how weak your argument is.



Mane said:


> Not really, for the reason I gave.
> 
> And I wouldn't even nearly compare that to the huge disadvantage Tsunade was at.



Indeed Kabuto's disadvantage was much greater. Tsunade happens to be a healing specialist, so any minor or even some major wounds inflicted could be healed. Thus Kabuto's challenge was basically to exhaust her an then challenge her. 

As shown by Itachi it can be extremely challenging to exhaust another shinobi of their chakra reserves. Itachi who could have killed Sasuke at nearly any point of their fight was severely injured and forced into a state of blindness while subduing Sasuke. 



> She wasn't too slow to land hits on Kabuto before, or land a hit on Orochimaro later.



Actually she was too slow to land hits on Kabuto before. She even exhausted herself by being too slow to land hits on Kabuto. 



> And there's still Katsuya. Kabuto wasn't a big enough threat for her to pull out her best techniques, which should say something.



She can't pull it out without blood, her fear of blood prevented her from using it. But I guess her fear of Oro was able to overcome her fear of blood... 



> It was a mistranslation, as I've said. The actual translation was:_ His jutsu instincts and sharpness surpass even my own in my prime..._



Sorry but I'm going to go with the translation presented in the manga rather then the one you're providing right now. 



> No, she was holding her own against an exhausted Sasuke who couldn't even fight back due to the condition he was in, as she admitted herself. Anyone could 'hold their own' against someone who was in too much pain to fight back, not to menton that she had outside help at the start. Tsunade, from what we've seen, is much better than her.



Sasuke was unable to fight back because of Mei's continues attacks forcing him to spam Susano. Tsunade on the other hand would be far too slow to give Sasuke a need to use Susano.



> More like he went to: "wow, this is strong chakra", and Orochimaro thought the same.



Nah bro, it was more like he had poop in his pants. Either way Kabuto never displayed the same fear when it came to Tsunade. 



> Did we have a day-to-day commentary of her life? It's just as likely that she trained as Hokage as it is that the previous Hokage's did. Not to mention that she would have been training herself while training others. In other words, current Tsunade is no longer 'out of action'.



The previous Hokages were actually competent and smart. That's why Konoha was the most powerful village before Tsunade took over.


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## Mane (Jul 22, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Indeed Kabuto's disadvantage was much greater. Tsunade happens to be a healing specialist, so any minor or even some major wounds inflicted could be healed. Thus Kabuto's challenge was basically to exhaust her an then challenge her.
> 
> As shown by Itachi it can be extremely challenging to exhaust another shinobi of their chakra reserves. Itachi who could have killed Sasuke at nearly any point of their fight was severely injured and forced into a state of blindness while subduing Sasuke.



No, if he had intended to kill, he would have gone for her in exactly the same way: using his chakra scalpels. In terms of the way he was fighting, he wasn't at any major disadvantage by choosing to immobilise rather than kill her. With the chakra scalpels, it is actually easier to immobilise your opponent than kill them because you can aim for a much larger area (muscles) rather than just one (the neck).

We saw her take several "killing" strikes by Orochimaro and still live to tell the tale. I can't see Kabuto being able to take her down at all. There would still be Sozo Saisei if she was on the verge of death.

I don't know what makes you think this is worse than Tsunade being exhausted, out of action for a long time and having 0 knowledge, while her opponent had (practically) full knowledge and was boosted by soldier pills, all of which were crucial to him performing well. There is absolutely no way Kabuto was more disadvantaged than Tsunade, that's absurd.



> Actually she was too slow to land hits on Kabuto before. She even exhausted herself by being too slow to land hits on Kabuto.



You mean when Kabuto was running away? I was referring to landing hits while during combat, which she managed to do to both Kabuto and Orochimaro.



> She can't pull it out without blood, her fear of blood prevented her from using it. But I guess her fear of Oro was able to overcome her fear of blood...



Blood is not something which troubles her any longer, and fear wasn't the reason she overcame it. Plus, it's now just another advantage she has over Kabuto, but she is skilled enough to outclass him without it.



> Sorry but I'm going to go with the translation presented in the manga rather then the one you're providing right now.



You're acting like there are never translation mistakes. 

Suu pretty much clears up the misunderstanding .



> Sasuke was unable to fight back because of Mei's continues attacks forcing him to spam Susano. Tsunade on the other hand would be far too slow to give Sasuke a need to use Susano.



Wrong for two reasons. Firstly, Mei's attacks were not relentless; there were plenty of opportunities for him to fight back/attack her. Secondly, both Sasuke and Mei herself confirmed that he was worn out after his fight with Raikage, and was no condition to fight. He couldn't even stand up.

Not to mention that she had assistance.



> Nah bro, it was more like he had poop in his pants. Either way Kabuto never displayed the same fear when it came to Tsunade.



Not really, he was just taken back by the strength of his chakra.

So? He hyped her up enough during their battle and knew that the only way he could take her on was by tiring her out.



> The previous Hokages were actually competent and smart. That's why Konoha was the most powerful village before Tsunade took over.



Well that has absolutely nothing to do with my point whatsoever.


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## Hero (Jul 22, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> *Exterminating Akatsuki*​
> 
> Tsunade was the only Hokage to actively do something about the threat of Akatsuki. Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato are excused due to Akatsuki's being a non-threat in their time. Hiruzen, however, is debatable. While Akatsuki did nothing major during his times as Hokage, notably his second time around after Minato's death, Jiraiya still was knowledgeable of them and would have informed his former sensei to do something about them. Either that, or Jiraiya neglected to voice his concerns for Akatsuki, unlike when he did so to Kakashi.
> 
> ...




What point are you missing? It's clearly stated here that she is responsible for the deaths of he Akatsuki members. She deserves as much credit as the ninja who completed the mission because it was under her orders and reign.​


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## Cocatrola (Jul 22, 2011)

Xerces said:


> I understand that Tsunade can give 'orders', but to use that as justification for Tsunade's role in enemy removal is ridiculous, and pathetic. Any monkey sitting behind a chair can blindly give out orders, but it is the shinobi that ultimately determine the outcome of the mission. Afterall, it is not the president of a country that is awarded a medal for bravery during war; it is the soldier himself.



Yet Orochimaru usually lurks around his hideout and send Kabuto to do his dirty work. Same thing, bro.


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## Esmeray (Jul 22, 2011)

Why hate on Tsunade in the first place?

She used all her power and saved everyone in Konoha with her slugs before passing out.

And lets Naruto take center stage and become the hero of the village..

(Also has the biggest boobs.. whats wrong people?)


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## Googleplex (Jul 22, 2011)

I feel the male essence here.  Tsuande was crap in the invasion because she didn't try to fight Pain. 

Flawed as she was weaker than Pain, very clearly. Although I guess you can use the fact that Sennin Mode Naruto was also overall weaker than Pain, yet fought.
Then again Shikaku Nara said with the advent of Senjutsu to his arsenal, Naruto's in a whole other level... compared to others in Konoha including Tsunade; supported by the fact that Fukasaku believed - pre-Rasenshuriken - Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya. 

Naruto had to surpass the strongest Hokage, arguably, to fight Pain and was still overall weaker... you all expect Tsunade to casually try to fight that?!
When Jiraiya said she should try to stay put as Hokage as people will be lost if their leader changes constantly.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 22, 2011)

Wooo lmao. People are actually trying to say Tsunade actually had something to do with the killings of the Akatsuki 

Guess Gatou is directly responsible for putting Kakashi in the bed for a week too


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## Googleplex (Jul 22, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Wooo lmao. People are actually trying to say Tsunade actually had something to do with the killings of the Akatsuki



Her orders caused the deaths indirectly.

However that role is so minute that it shouldn't be highlighted in my opinion. The real credit should go to the ninja whose blood, sweat and tears went into the battles such as Shikamaru with Hidan or Naruto with Kakuzu and Pain Rikudou.
Though I guess its okay to acknowledge a Kage for killing/injuring someone in the same fashion if they directly caused it for example Minato stopping Madara from being able to control the Kyuubi or Hiruzen sealing away Orochimaru's arms.

Then again this falls into a trap of comparing a Hokage whose famed for medical ninjutsu with other Hokage whom are famed for their battle capabilities and power.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 22, 2011)

Fireworks said:


> What point are you missing? It's clearly stated here that she is responsible for the deaths of he Akatsuki members. She deserves as much credit as the ninja who completed the mission because it was under her orders and reign.[/CENTER]



Like I said, that logic fails for a variety of reasons. Tsunade deserves no credit as she did not actually do anything. 

To state that Tsunade deserves anything remotely close to the same amount of credit as the shinobi who actually got the job done is fanboyism at it's finest.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 22, 2011)

I'd have loved to see which Akatsuki would be killed if Tsunade hadn't advocated for their capture/deaths. I suppose we need only look to the other four villages to see how that'd turn out.


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## Hero (Jul 22, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I'd have loved to see which Akatsuki would be killed if Tsunade hadn't advocated for their capture/deaths. I suppose we need only look to the other four villages to see how that'd turn out.





AKmyWaffle said:


> Like I said, that logic fails for a variety of reasons. Tsunade deserves no credit as she did not actually do anything.
> 
> To state that Tsunade deserves anything remotely close to the same amount of credit as the shinobi who actually got the job done is fanboyism at it's finest.



The Queen says it herself.


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## TheFouthMizukage (Jul 22, 2011)

Maginfecent read. 

Not only well and thoroughly written, it also defends a character who is worthy of respect. I see many people who trash Tsunade as though she is the weakest shinobi Kohona has ever known. However, that is farther from the truth than most people can imagine. And this proves it.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 23, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I'd have loved to see which Akatsuki would be killed if Tsunade hadn't advocated for their capture/deaths. I suppose we need only look to the other four villages to see how that'd turn out.



Well considering Sasuke is responsible for the death of about a fifth, I'd say at least a fifth...
So that would be
Itachi
Deidara 
Oro (Former)

Sasori would have gotten ambushed by Oro and Kabuto. So let's add him too... 

Then there is Pain, whom Tsunade really did nothing against. Sure she called Naruto back but that didn't really work out. And Shima just happened to be shopping in the area so Naruto would have come out either way. The vital info was also gathered without Tsunade by Kakashi and Jiraiya. 

So let's add Nagato to the list.
Konan was killed by Tobi, so let's add her to the list as well.

Hidan is still alive, so let's ignore him. 

And Kakazu basically invaded the fire nation, so chances are sooner or later he would have gotten picked off. Plus if we consider the fact that Kakashi and Shikamaru are the ones responsible for pursuing Kakazu and Hidan while Tsunade wanted to leave them out of it, I'd say Kakazu is on the list as well. 

Kisame was killed because of A's orders so he is on the list as well, since Tsunade was against the whole sending the Jinchuriki away idea. 


So I think that's all of them. All of the dead ones would have died regardless of Tsunade's actions. She could have just enjoyed a cup of tea as Naruto suggested. Konoha would have probably been better off without getting nuked anyways.


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## Xerces (Jul 23, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I'd have loved to see which Akatsuki would be killed if Tsunade hadn't advocated for their capture/deaths. I suppose we need only look to the other four villages to see how that'd turn out.



*As I elaborated in my previous post, Tsunade has not advocated for the death of any Akatsuki members.* She has simply given orders to 'rescue Gaara' and 'retrieve Sasuke', and therefore has not explicitly advocated the death of any member of Akstsuki. 

Thus, any Akatsuki causalities during those mission have absolutely no correlation to Tsunade. Furthermore, she even was reluctant to let Shikamaru to go on his revenge mission against Hidan and Kakuzu. The village was lucky Kakashi intervened and persuaded the naive Hokage to let them continue.


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## tsunadefan (Jul 23, 2011)

really ya'll?! the point is, out of all the kages overall, tsunade was not in agreement with, and tried with her village to, oppose the akatsuki. if the sand was attacked by the akatsuki, would she not help in some way?! oh wait!! she did! how? by sending for the retrieval of gaara. do you not think that tsunade knew that kakashi and the others would have faced akatsuki? i mean, gaara has been CAPTURED after all. it makes no sense when you say tsunade only said retrieve gaara so she was involved in akatsuki or wanted them dead. 

and btw, a village or country is said to receive the glory sometimes when they defeat an enemy. also, the ruler is also said to be a good leader and decision maker because they were ruling at the time of the victory. 

and all this about tsunade being the reason for pain to nuke the village. NO!! IT IS NOT HER FAULT PAIN IS A CHILD!! tsunade is an admirable ruler who cares for, protects and stands up for the country! i guess if osama came and threatened obama, you people (tsunadehatards) would want obama to whimper on his kness like a dog, say please forgive me, and give in to osama's whims. konoha was already being destroyed (or suffered damage) from pain and his terrorism. what sense would it make for tsunade to just whimper on her feet? she would lose ratings from the villagers too! and ya'll make it sound as if she knew pain had world devastation!! so she purposefully just said something for pain to get in a tantrum and lose it... yeah.. no wonder why im not persuaded to be a ~snip~ XD


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## Shinobi66 (Jul 24, 2011)

Xerces said:


> *As I elaborated in my previous post, Tsunade has not advocated for the death of any Akatsuki members.* She has simply given orders to 'rescue Gaara' and 'retrieve Sasuke', and therefore has not explicitly advocated the death of any member of Akstsuki.
> 
> Thus, any Akatsuki causalities during those mission have absolutely no correlation to Tsunade. Furthermore, she even was reluctant to let Shikamaru to go on his revenge mission against Hidan and Kakuzu. The village was lucky Kakashi intervened and persuaded the naive Hokage to let them continue.



Wha? o.O

When she sent shinobi to Suna, what was she sending them for? To rescue Gaara, as in, take him back from Akatsuki which would require them to fight Akatsuki. And when she sent team Guy, she was sending them as reinforcements for the fights.

The whole Hidan/Kakuzu arc was Tsunade mobilizing large numbers of shinobi in order to actively hunt down and kill/capture Akatsuki members. She didn't let Shikamaru go because they would have gotten themselves killed (indeed imagine how it would have gone down if Kakashi wasn't there). She allowed them to go when he volunteered to watch over them.

And then in the next arc, she again sends shinobi to hunt down Akatsuki (Itachi). 

I'm not saying she deserves the credit for killing them but what I think the tc was getting across in the op is that by actually doing something about Akatsuki, Tsunade did her job as a Kage better than the rest of the current Kage. This is evident in the Kage summit when it's shown that the other Kage have done absolutely nothing about it. Some having even used Akatsuki (Onoki). Gaara also mentions that out of all the Kage, Tsunade was the only one to respond to Suna's call for help when he was taken.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 24, 2011)

Shinobi66 said:


> Wha? o.O
> 
> When she sent shinobi to Suna, what was she sending them for? To rescue Gaara, as in, take him back from Akatsuki which would require them to fight Akatsuki. And when she sent team Guy, she was sending them as reinforcements for the fights.
> 
> ...



That's not entirely true. It is suggested that the mist village revolted against Tobi and his pawn the 4th Mizukage. So I would imagine removing Tobi from his seat of power took quite a bit of effort. 

But regardless of that, let's examine why the weakest villages decided to fight against Akatsuki and why the stronger villages did relatively little. 

Akatsuki basically walked all over the weaker villages, specifically the mist. Konoha was nearly destroyed by Orochimaru, and Itachi + Kisame walked right in and raped Konoha's elite Jounin. Still despite being aware of the group in the three years of the timeskip Tsunade did absolutely nothing about Akatsuki. 

Konoha and Suna did not start cooperating against Akatsuki until the Akatsuki kidnapped and killed the Kazekage, which in my opinion is a pretty good reason to get their asses in gear. Konoha stood to lose a close ally, so their response was expected. However even when Konoha's close ally was attacked Tsunade took no action against Akatsuki in general, she waited until the Fire Nation was invaded to attack Hidan and Kakazu. 

Onoki had actually hired Akatsuki to hunt down and remove the Iwa jinchuriki. For him the relationship was mutually beneficial so why would he have attacked them?

The cloud really didn't give a shit about them until part two when they attacked the two tails. Since then it has been like what less then a month? And we have found out about the cloud village about a week or two ago in story time. So obviously we did not see their response to Akatsuki's abduction of the Nibi. However we do know that the Raikage held a Kage summit and was personally involved with the rescue Bee effort.



Another key issue to consider is that Akatsuki was suppose to be a secret organization, while their existence was know to Konoha for several reasons it may not have been known to the rest of the world. Tsunade's choice of not sharing the information she had with the other villages or calling attention to the issue prior to the timeskip can be said to be a cause of the current situation as well. Indeed despite being in an alliance with the Sand Tsunade didn't even take the time to inform them about the situation. Instead Jiraiya had to do it himself after the timseskip.


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## joshhookway (Jul 24, 2011)

She's better than Hiruzen, but not the better choice for hokage, Danzo is. Tsunade just gives order. Shikaku would be a much better hokage if that's what you what. Tsunade abilities are poor.During the Pain invasion, she did nothing except heal fodders. If Danzo was Hokage, those fuutons would have come in handy and He would immediately alert gai and yamato and sai back to the village. Root + Konoha rape pain


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 25, 2011)

Please explain to me how Shikaku would make a better choice for Hokage. And what qualifications he has that match up to, if not surpass, Tsunade's.

And really? Root + Konoha rape Pain? When even SM Naruto/KN6 had trouble? While they may have had more numbers, the outcome would've been the same, provided CST came out. And I don't really think Shikaku or Danzou could've effectively counteracted/negated its effects.


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (May 21, 2012)

i really enjoyed reading this. Thank you for the excellent source of info.


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