# Brussels Zaventem airport rocked by two explosions



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

> Two explosions have been reported in the departures area of Zaventem airport in Brussels.
> 
> The Belgian fire service told local media there were at least several dead and wounded.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35869254

Live updates: http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-35869266


----------



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Mar 22, 2016)

Wow....this is horrible.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Mar 22, 2016)

Here we go again.


----------



## Mider T (Mar 22, 2016)

A shame...I like that airport.


----------



## Overwatch (Mar 22, 2016)

Explosions in the metro have been reported as well.


----------



## dr_shadow (Mar 22, 2016)

In b4 Islamic State.


----------



## WT (Mar 22, 2016)

GARcher said:


> Let's make a bet
> 
> Are the culprits muslims or not?



Its ISIS without a doubt. 

Seems like revenge for the capture of the Paris attacker.

Molenbeek or whatever that district is should be strictly monitored. Safety should prioritise over freedom at this point


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 22, 2016)




----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Not armata corsa or the ETA,  that for sure.  Daesh or Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb but following the recent arrest, it's a attempt of daesh tao save face.


----------



## Deleted member 73050 (Mar 22, 2016)

Religion

of

PEACE
E
A
C
E


----------



## Azula (Mar 22, 2016)

Terrible, watching the news now


----------



## Uraharа (Mar 22, 2016)

This is starting to come very close to where I live...


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Metro is closed in Brussels.  Heavy control in Paris train station,  airport and public transports.
People in Brussels are asked to stay where they are for the moment.


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Mar 22, 2016)

Maybe this will make Belgium and other European countries give the Peshmarga better heavy weapons to fight ISIS because what they mainly do is say how excellent the Peshmarga are fighting ISIS and thanking them. while giving them shitty weapons that are not nearly enough to fight ISIS who has much better weapons. 

R.I.P to the victims.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

My current theory/guess: they tried to get abroad the American Airlines flight, were detected by the security and blew themselves up in the terminal as plan B.



GARcher said:


> Let's make a bet
> 
> Are the culprits muslims or not?




Apparently there was shouting in Arabic and gunfire before the explosions. It's unverified information yet, take everything with a grain of salt for now.


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Mar 22, 2016)

^I do not see why that airline was even brought up in the article since the U.S. Had nothing to do with the manhunt for Salah....the main forces were the Belgian and French police who tracked him down.

We have to wait for more information, though.

Revenge plot seems more like it, regardless.




Why do I get the feeling this is going to spawn more paranoiac powers given to Belgian authorities to house arrest people without prior court order or direct evidence like France is doing under its "state of emergency" provision it is fighting to put as a permanent feature in its Constitution....

Terrible.....just terrible.  I know that terrorism is a real threat and security must be improved and higher to combat it, but there has to be a better way to do this ......the poor victims!

I hope the guys responsible or giving aid to these acts are caught resisting arrest and SHOT DEAD!


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

^  Multiple sources specifically said the explosions happened near the American Airlines check-in. When little is known, all pieces of information are valuable. 

Please remember that we don't know if this was "a revenge" for one of the members getting caught. It is just as possible if not even more so that they had been planning this for a while now, and one of them getting caught made the rest worry that he might reveal them and their plan, and so hurried up.


----------



## Saishin (Mar 22, 2016)

It's unbelievable,it's terrible 

Now the risk is that all the freedom/human rights values on which Europe is founded can be sacrified in the name of security,the state of emergency declared by France is an example.As Fruits Basket Fan said the governments could be tempted to enact more paranoic powers to the authorities.Will Europe heading towards a society where everyone of us is check every second? well this is already happening in some extent if we think about it.We're heading to a society that is living in a state of fear permanently,I hope not anyway.


----------



## VoDe (Mar 22, 2016)




----------



## Kusa (Mar 22, 2016)

When will this have an end


----------



## stream (Mar 22, 2016)

It's difficult to know what has happened for the moment. There are often rumors repeated all over social networks and which end up being completely fake. Better wait for official announcements.


----------



## Mael (Mar 22, 2016)

Well this'll bode well for Merkel and the rest.  My condolences to the victims but this further necessitates stricter action.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

Urahara. said:


> The muslim population is growing tho. Every other *race*(white, black asian) have only 1 to 2 children(3 at max).
> .


??????? 
Aren't most of them in the Netherlands Indonesian(Asian)?

On topic RIP for the victims


----------



## the_notorious_Z.É. (Mar 22, 2016)

This is fucked up, rip in to victims.


----------



## Shinobu (Mar 22, 2016)

Religion of Peace 

RIP and condolences


----------



## Zaru (Mar 22, 2016)

Fruits Basket Fan said:


> France has the largest number of Muslims in the EU and they make up only between 6-12% of the population in just that country, compared to that there are less in Belgium.  So there is no way they will make up the majority anytime soon.



The immediate problem isn't their future population estimate, but that they have areas where they are locally the majority, leading to cultural insulation and lack of integration. See: That district in Brussels which is a hive of extremism.


----------



## Overwatch (Mar 22, 2016)

> *Bulgaria PM: Integration of Terrorists 'Impossible', 'Unfair'
> *
> *"There is no way for us to integrate terrorists, it is not fair," Bulgarian Prime Minister has said.
> 
> ...



'

This is especially whimsical, considering that this guy has been Merkel's lapdog ever since he first came into office years ago.


----------



## Distracted (Mar 22, 2016)

Let's keep this discussion just about the attack, not about the opinions on Muslims in general... Please,  I'm so tried of nuking threads.


----------



## WT (Mar 22, 2016)

First Turkey and now Brussels.

So tragic. RIP to victims of these attacks...


----------



## Zaru (Mar 22, 2016)

They're evacuating Tihange for some reason? That's one of the worst nuclear powerplants (they have to heat the cooling water, no joke)


----------



## scerpers (Mar 22, 2016)

rip power plant


----------



## Xyloxi (Mar 22, 2016)

eHav said:


> it will be funny how everyone who didnt give 2 shits about turkey will now put up a belgium flag facebook picture



Because they're isn't the cognitive distance between Belgium and the rest of the Western world like there is with Turkey. Brussels is a two hour train ride from where I live in the Netherlands, and I've visited there a couple of times, as well as I have a few friends who live there or near there. Whereas for me, it's harder to feel connected with Turkey as it's further away culturally, so it's harder to relate to, alongside, I have no relation to the country socially or emotionally.


----------



## Zef (Mar 22, 2016)

How horrific. Before the greatest worry when traveling was there being a bomb on the plane. Now you have to worry about being blown up before even getting on the plane. 

This shit is becoming to commonplace. My mother woke me up to tell me what was happening, and I just felt desensitized to it all. 

I guess this is the new normal. 
-Terrorist attack
-News Coverage 
-Mourning 
-Period of peace 
-Repeat

Listening to these terrorism analysts on CNN is depressing. They're basically saying this is inevitable, and that there's no end in sight. Everyone reporting on this sounds defeated, and broken.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Guys, can we keep this thread for the actual news event? The Islam debate thread is there for all your debating needs. We don't have to repeat the same arguments here where they will drown the news about this incident. 

On topic: the latest casualties report is 30 dead and over 200 injured. The city is still in a halt as they search for the terrorists.


----------



## Raiden (Mar 22, 2016)

RIP to all the people that lost their lives. 

I guess both American and European politics will take a turn for the worst after this.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Guys, can we keep this thread for the actual news event? The Islam debate thread is there for all your debating needs. We don't need to repeat the same arguments here where they will drown the news about this incident.
> 
> On topic: the latest casualties report is 30 dead and over 200 injured. The city is still in a halt as they search for the terrorists.



What can you really say other than things like casualties and whatnot? Discussing the motives is going to be inevitable.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Seto Kaiba said:


> What can you really say other than things like casualties and whatnot? Discussing the motives is going to be inevitable.



Discussing motives implies you have information to make conclusions, last time I checked, we did not.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Seto Kaiba said:


> What can you really say other than things like casualties and whatnot? Discussing the motives is going to be inevitable.




I would agree if I didn't already know how it will play out. 

Really, there are other places in NF where you can talk about Islam and Islamic terrorism. This is the only place where you can talk about what's happening in Brussels right now.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

Disgusting


----------



## Mael (Mar 22, 2016)

Yet you can still make educated deductions.  This is as good a thread as ever to talk about the issues with lack of education, Islam, and extremism.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

If you are wondering whether I said that as a mod or an individual user, it's the latter. It was my personal wish. I won't start deleting or editing posts that discuss Islam in general rather than in this specific case. Only posts that break the general rules will be deleted, as above.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

On Topic : many are speculating on wether this attack was "Revenge" for France arresting that Salah terrorist
Likely true


----------



## Mael (Mar 22, 2016)

*Trump calls for tough U.S. border security after Brussels attacks*

Called it with #4:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-idUSKCN0WO11J


> Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump called again for tougher U.S. border security following Tuesday's deadly attacks on the Brussels airport, saying "we have to be very vigilant and careful about who we allow into our country."
> 
> Trump's comments, in an interview on NBC's "Today" program, came a day after he expressed skepticism about the U.S. role in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and said the United States should significantly cut spending on the defense alliance.
> 
> ...



Hate to say it, but it is true.  Radical Islam is at war with the West.  It's at war with the West as it is with the decency of modern Islam.


----------



## Distracted (Mar 22, 2016)

Mael said:


> Yet you can still make educated deductions.  This is as good a thread as ever to talk about the issues with lack of education, Islam, and extremism.





Amanda said:


> If you are wondering whether I said that as a mod or an individual user, it's the latter. It was my personal wish. I won't start deleting or editing posts that discuss Islam in general rather than in this specific case. Only posts that break the general rules will be deleted, as above.




I'm saying it as a mod.  This thread is here to discuss the attack, express any sympathy for the victims and gather any of the latest information.

Speculation about motives and any opinions regarding culture, religion and other such topics belong in the other threads dedicated to them.  This is not the thread to discuss your opinions on religion or culture. I'm done with that nonsense detailing a thread.


----------



## Hand Banana (Mar 22, 2016)

Trump is just using this to preach his ideals on xenophobia. Building borders is not going to resolve the issue.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

At least one of the explosions was a suicide attack.

After the first explosion people started to run, but into the direction of the second explosion.



> Police searching Schaerbeek district
> 
> Police in Brussels are searching for terror suspects in the city's Schaerbeek district, Belgian broadcaster RTBF reports.





> Buzzfeed interviewed a Belgian counter-terrorism official last week - before the Brussels attacks - who said police resources in the country were already stretched to the limit.
> 
> He said virtually every police detective and military intelligence official in the country were focused on international jihadi investigations.
> 
> ...





> US presidential candidates respond to Brussels attacks
> Posted at 17:06
> US Republican presidential front runner Donald Trump said the attacks showed the need for a much tougher Western response to jihadist violence.
> 
> ...



All from http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-35869266


----------



## Distracted (Mar 22, 2016)

Seto Kaiba said:


> OK, condolences. Naturally, it's a tragic event. Yet how long does that go on before it gets repetitive? Post after post expressing such?
> 
> If reports come out detailing the motivations and the individuals, then would you concede to allowing discussion on them? It's as I told Amanda, of course it is repetitive, but it also *keeps happening*. It's unavoidable.



Then let out be repetitive and let this thread end at its natural conclusion.  If you want to talk about motives create a thread in the debate section.

Just like any other thread, they have a life span and we don't shoehorn other topics in to keep them alive.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Distracted said:


> I'm saying it as a mod.  This thread is here to discuss the attack, express any sympathy for the victims and gather any of the latest information.
> 
> Speculation about motives and any opinions regarding culture, religion and other such topics belong in the other threads dedicated to them.  This is not the thread to discuss your opinions on religion or culture. I'm done with that nonsense detailing a thread.




Well if you say so, sir. 

'Kay then.

From this on this will be a news thread. If you want, you can create a debate thread about it.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 22, 2016)

Not sure if posted, but Ted Cruz already calling for law enforcement to "patrol and secure" muslim neighborhoods.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

ISIS claimed responsibility.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-35869266


----------



## Distracted (Mar 22, 2016)

Parallax said:


> This is a fair point



I'm working on new rules for the place.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> ISIS claimed responsibility.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-35869266



So...to my point...


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Already posted the link with an article about Donald Trump 2-3 pages ago.


----------



## Extravlad (Mar 22, 2016)

> Radical Islam is at war with the west


Yea and fuck all those countries that happen to not be in he west and are under attack more often than we do uh?

They're at war with the entire world, not just the west.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

The Islam debate thread this way > 


Or create a new debate thread for the current terrorism situation in Europe.



It seems like the metro attack was more deadly than the airport attacks. In the airport there were some 10 dead, while twice as many died in the metro.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> On Topic : many are speculating on wether this attack was "Revenge" for France arresting that Salah terrorist
> Likely true



Except on the French news they pointed out that it probably took months to plan this attack,  Salah was arrested last week.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Hold on, I'll create a Arguing with Mods thread in the debate section.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Seto, the point isn't that Islam has nothing to do with this - obviously it does - the point simply is this particular thread should be reserved for what is happening right now, and debating the further implications belongs elsewhere.

 It's not like this thread was somehow more prestigious than any other thread and the Islam debate just absolutely has to take place here when it can take place in its own thread as well.


----------



## reaperunique (Mar 22, 2016)

Oh man, this happened on the line I take everyday to work  That seriously could have been me. I'm relieved I didn't oversleep today and take the early ride every day.
But now, the aftermath. I won't be using the metro any time soon (it won't be able to get passed Maalbeek).


----------



## Punished Pathos (Mar 22, 2016)

Sad to see this happen.
Guess its safe to say that folks should be more vigilant so that they can spot and report anyone suspicious, that goes for the refugees as well.
Well, this cycle won't end anytime soon. 
I can see this happening again, its sad really.


----------



## baconbits (Mar 22, 2016)

I wonder if this is going to make people, particularly on the left, more serious about the problems with radical Islam and their immigration and migration policies.  At some point you have to make the jump from Savior to Seto when reality hits you too often.


----------



## Krory (Mar 22, 2016)

baconbits said:


> I wonder if this is going to make people, particularly on the left, more serious about the problems with radical Islam and their immigration and migration policies.  At some point you have to make the jump from Savior to Seto when reality hits you too often.



Or you could neither and find a happy medium?


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 22, 2016)

In deference to the mods I made this:


To discuss the "how to stop radical Islam" items.


----------



## Mider T (Mar 22, 2016)

Distracted said:


> One again, you guys are talking about something off topic.



Once*

Are you going to make a Cafe announcement?


----------



## Banhammer (Mar 22, 2016)

Depending on how they respond to this, Europe has lost a lot of moral high ground regarding the way they look at the US



I have a friend who went through that airport just yesterday. Shit.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Leaked image of the suspects:





> An image widely published by Belgian media is said to show three men who are believed to have carried out the attack at Zaventem Airport.
> 
> The two men dressed in black are believed to have blown themselves up, while the man in white is thought to have escaped, RTBF reported.
> 
> ...



The airport after the blast:



http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-35869266


----------



## baconbits (Mar 22, 2016)

Rey said:


> Or you could neither and find a happy medium?



Can there really be a happy medium in such a wide gulf of opinion?  One thinks international terrorism isn't worse than the common cold.  The other thinks we should aggressively deal with it.  I think you have to choose between the two of them.  You can have a more moderate tone, like I have, but you have to either think radical Islam needs to be dealt with or it doesn't.



GARcher said:


> well, it will probably the same as always for guys like Savior
> 
> "this has nothing to do with Islam"
> "they are just individuals, anyone could have done that"
> ...



Well said.  And I think that the moderates have to realize this or they give rise to the Trumpification of their own politics.



Zyrax Pasha said:


> From a SJW to a pseudo intellectual ?



Lol.  No I meant from denier to engager.  If I remember correctly back in the day Seto used to be far more to the left than he is now.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Leaked image of the suspects:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hopefully it will help the police find them


----------



## Saishin (Mar 22, 2016)

The question is how they entered inside the airport with bombs and rifles,where were the controls? same for the subway,this really is odd.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

^ I was surprised by how they got to the airport, too. Apparently there isn't much of a security until you get to the check-in area (where they blew themselves up.)

Perhaps the people who use this airport can comment. 



Zyrax Pasha said:


> Hopefully it will help the police find them




Well I'm sure they will find the pieces of the two men that blew themselves up, alright. Just give the forensic team some time.

As for the man in white, hopefully they catch him. The Belgian media has given the police peace by not reporting too much about the home raids taking place in the city.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

On the French news they talked to a lady who almost got hit by a piece of the ceiling. She clearly saw he life before here eyes. 

And the blasts was not the only thing, they also found ak-47s. This could have been much more chaotic.


----------



## Mael (Mar 22, 2016)

So pretty much Muslims of some Middle East/North African background taking advantage of lax European security measures.

Let the shitstorm commence.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Ah yes, the Kalashnikovs. From the very first news I got the feeling they had planned something more, but only got this far. (Of course I could be wrong here.) 

Like the Paris attack was actually just half a success and their ultimate plan, to cause a stampede on the arena while live on tv was prevented by the security.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Ah yes, the Kalashnikovs. From the very first news I got the feeling they had planned something more, but only got this far. (Of course I could be wrong here.)
> 
> Like the Paris attack was actually just half a success and their ultimate plan, to cause a stampede on the arena while live on tv was prevented by the security.


I feel this way too
They were planning to do as much as damage as possible


----------



## Saishin (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> ^ I was surprised by how they got to the airport, too. Apparently there isn't much of a security until you get to the check-in area (where they blew themselves up.)
> 
> Perhaps the people who use this airport can comment.
> 
> ...





Mael said:


> So pretty much Muslims of some Middle East/North African background taking advantage of lax European security measures.
> 
> Let the shitstorm commence.


Lax of security measures indeed,it's incredible because after the Paris attacks the authorities had to know that the level threat was high and thus they had to increase the security measures,did they increase them? it seems they did so but today's attack told the contrary.

That being said I repeat that in a place like an airport,a place that should be under heavy controls it's incredible that these men were able to introduce kalashnikovs and set a bomb.I think they received help inside the very airport by someone.
But as said by Amanda the weak point is the check in area,there isn't much control in that first phase of embarking of the passenger,don't know though.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

I had forgotten:



Stay safe, die Mannschaft....


----------



## Deleted member 235437 (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> I had forgotten:
> 
> 
> 
> Stay safe, die Mannschaft....



I've been so excited about the Euros but you just reminded me how scary they're going to be too. If they're targeting places with large crowds, stadiums during the tournament are going to be prime targets


----------



## Nello (Mar 22, 2016)

Rey said:


> Or you could neither and find a happy medium?


I'm left-wing on a lot of issues, but when it comes to immigration, i'm leaning more and more to the right. Statistics aren't racist, and they tell us that muslim immigrants bring a lot of problems other than just terrorism.

Regressive left, tolerating intolerance, and all that. I wish we didn't have to choose between left-wing politics and politics that will address immigration issues but may be bad on all other issues.


baconbits said:


> Can there really be a happy medium in such a wide gulf of opinion?  One thinks international terrorism isn't worse than the common cold.  The other thinks we should aggressively deal with it.  I think you have to choose between the two of them.  You can have a more moderate tone, like I have, but you have to either think radical Islam needs to be dealt with or it doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would hope there aren't a lot of people who think radical Islam isn't a problem that needs to be addressed. It should be possible to find a solution between ignoring ISIS and bombing all of Syria. In my somewhat uneducated opinion the west needs to support the right governments in the ME and put pressure on them to fight ISIS seriously. Which won't be easy and it will take time, but hopefully it will be done right and secure long-term stability and peace. I don't think the west can fight ISIS directly without causing more hatred between the west and muslims.


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 22, 2016)

It's very difficult to overstate how angry this makes me

If I wasn't a sick shit right now I'd definitely give it a try


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)




----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 22, 2016)

Rip.        .


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> ^ I was surprised by how they got to the airport, too. Apparently there isn't much of a security until you get to the check-in area (where they blew themselves up.)



Isn't that the same in all (if not most) airports? You can't have security right there at the entrance, too many people, not enough space


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Alwaysmind said:


> Isn't that the same in all (if not most) airports? You can't have security right there at the entrance, too many people, not enough space




True... I recall walking through metal detectors in airports, but that has probably been after the check-in? Can't put it all into right order in my memories rn...


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 22, 2016)

Alwaysmind said:


> Isn't that the same in all (if not most) airports? You can't have security right there at the entrance, too many people, not enough space



And even if you did wouldn't it just move where the dense crowd of people back a few hundred feet?

Short of some sort of valet system where people arrive one (or a few) families at a time, go through security, then go on to their gate I don't really see how you could avoid a choke point.


----------



## Krory (Mar 22, 2016)

baconbits said:


> Can there really be a happy medium in such a wide gulf of opinion?  One thinks international terrorism isn't worse than the common cold.  The other thinks we should aggressively deal with it.  I think you have to choose between the two of them.  You can have a more moderate tone, like I have, but you have to either think radical Islam needs to be dealt with or it doesn't.



The answer certainly isn't one extreme or the other.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Savior said:


> This is a brutal attack and these villains are really going to ruin freedom for the general public. It's interesting to see how different people react to an attack in Brussels/Paris to an attack in Ankara.
> 
> .



Very true.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> And even if you did wouldn't it just move where the dense crowd of people back a few hundred feet?
> 
> Short of some sort of valet system where people arrive one (or a few) families at a time, go through security, then go on to their gate I don't really see how you could avoid a choke point.



It would not be moving it, just adding one such notions are not realistic anyway. Airlines would lose too much money, people would be crammed on a side walk. Taxis would be coming in and out, risking injuries and people would need to arrive 5 hours in advance to make sure they arrive 30 minutes before their flights.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Savior said:


> It's interesting to see how different people react to an attack in Brussels/Paris to an attack in Ankara.




Sadly, true. Attacks in Europe or North America attract far more attention than attacks in Turkey, Near East or Africa. If there is a city right now that needs those prayers, it's Ankara. Personally I wouldn't feel excited about traveling there - or Istanbul - right now.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> True... I recall walking through metal detectors in airports, but that has probably been after the check-in? Can't put it all into right order in my memories rn...



I can't speak to Brussels but every airport I have been to has had the entrance/ticket counters/baggage claim in one large area open to the public, then has a security checkpoint (metal detectors, body scanners, etc), then the terminals.

In theory you could have security first, but that would just mean that instead of long lines for each of the ticket counters before a long line for security there's a huge line for security before long lines for each ticket counter.



Alwaysmind said:


> It would not be moving it, just adding one such notions are not realistic anyway. Airlines would lose too much money, people would be crammed on a side walk. Taxis would be coming in and out, risking injuries and people would need to arrive 5 hours in advance to make sure they arrive 30 minutes before their flights.



Yeah, it's not practical.  There really isn't a practical way to stop all threats to airports.


----------



## Mael (Mar 22, 2016)

Savior said:


> This is a brutal attack and these villains are really going to ruin freedom for the general public. It's interesting to see how different people react to an attack in Brussels/Paris to an attack in Ankara.



Different circumstances.  Different perps.

Kinda funny how it's never uniform.  Maybe you should understand that but I'm half-surprised you weren't bending over for Islam here.


----------



## Savior (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Sadly, true. Attacks in Europe or North America attract far more attention than attacks in Turkey, Near East or Africa. If there is a city right now that needs those prayers, it's Ankara. Personally I wouldn't feel excited about traveling there - or Istanbul - right now.



I'm not worried. I'm visiting one of the places that there was previously an attack and there's no point in giving in to fear. Sure it might be a bit more dangerous than a stroll through Toronto but I'll risk it to see a new culture and experience a new country.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Savior said:


> I'm not worried. I'm visiting one of the places that there was previously an attack and there's no point in giving in to fear. Sure it might be a bit more dangerous than a stroll through Toronto but I'll risk it to see a new culture and experience a new country.



Very true.


----------



## Mael (Mar 22, 2016)

Savior said:


> I'm not worried. I'm visiting one of the places that there was previously an attack and there's no point in giving in to fear. Sure it might be a bit more dangerous than a stroll through Toronto but I'll risk it to see a new culture and experience a new country.



If you say New York City I'm going to find a way to electronically punch you.


----------



## Krory (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Sadly, true. Attacks in Europe or North America attract far more attention than attacks in Turkey, Near East or Africa. If there is a city right now that needs those prayers, it's Ankara. Personally I wouldn't feel excited about traveling there - or Istanbul - right now.



Peoples' priorities are skewed.




Alwaysmind said:


> Isn't that the same in all (if not most) airports? You can't have security right there at the entrance, too many people, not enough space





Amanda said:


> True... I recall walking through metal detectors in airports, but that has probably been after the check-in? Can't put it all into right order in my memories rn...



Check-in is usually right inside the airport from my experience, though it's been a while. Where you check your baggage and all sans carry-on. Then is the security and metal detectors. Unfortunately as someone pointed out, moving security back would just allow a larger congregation of people to become targets.




Mael said:


> Different circumstances.  Different perps.
> 
> Kinda funny how it's never uniform.  Maybe you should understand that but I'm half-surprised you weren't bending over for Islam here.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Those Kalashnikovs remind me... There was talk after the failed France-Belgium train attack and the Paris attack how guns keep getting smuggled from Eastern Europe into Belgium, from where they are distributed to the rest of Western Europe.

Something to think about while reworking EU.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Mar 22, 2016)

Savior said:


> This is a brutal attack and these villains are really going to ruin freedom for the general public. It's interesting to see how different people react to an attack in Brussels/Paris to an attack in Ankara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The terrorist attack in Ankara was not a moral equivalent to either this one or the attack in Paris.



Khaleesi said:


> I've been so excited about the Euros but you just reminded me how scary they're going to be too. If they're targeting places with large crowds, stadiums during the tournament are going to be prime targets



Yeah, it's pretty terrifying.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Those Kalashnikovs remind me... There was talk after the failed France-Belgium train attack and the Paris attack how guns keep getting smuggled from Eastern Europe into Belgium, from where they are distributed to the rest of Western Europe.
> 
> Something to think about while reworking EU.


I always wondered why the EU thought ot was a good idea to invite Eastern Europeans in so soon, Likely because they got too Arrogant in the 1990's.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Sadly, true. Attacks in Europe or North America attract far more attention than attacks in Turkey, Near East or Africa. If there is a city right now that needs those prayers, it's Ankara. Personally I wouldn't feel excited about traveling there - or Istanbul - right now.



Depend. Here in France,  the attacks in Ivory Coast or Mali are much more covered than the one in Turkey.  We feel closer and far more concerned.  I didn't post a thread about Ivory Coast attacks because of the high level of ignorance about Africa in this forum.  It really annoy me.


----------



## Overwatch (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Sadly, true. Attacks in Europe or North America attract far more attention than attacks in Turkey, Near East or Africa. If there is a city right now that needs those prayers, it's Ankara. Personally I wouldn't feel excited about traveling there - or Istanbul - right now.



Turkey is reaping the proverbial whirlwind. Aside from being complicit in the current disaster in Syria and Iraq, they're growing ever bolder in their quest fuck over their other neighbours and the EU as a whole.

Excuse me while I save my tears for someone else.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

_@ Overwatch _

Turkish citizens don't deserve to be bombed, even despite Erdogan's ever crazier actions. 



> Brussels police have issued a wanted notice for a man seen pushing a luggage trolley through the airport.


----------



## Garcher (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Sadly, true. Attacks in Europe or North America attract far more attention than attacks in Turkey, Near East or Africa. If there is a city right now that needs those prayers, it's Ankara. Personally I wouldn't feel excited about traveling there - or Istanbul - right now.



Obviously people care much more about attacks directed at them, and westerners are still dominating many parts of the internet

and it is more shocking for us when this chaos can't be contained at its origin anymore since we see it all the time just on TV


----------



## Saishin (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Sadly, true. Attacks in Europe or North America attract far more attention than attacks in Turkey, Near East or Africa. If there is a city right now that needs those prayers, it's Ankara. Personally I wouldn't feel excited about traveling there - or Istanbul - right now.


It's true,especially for Turkey there wasn't much media coverage and a strong attention abroad.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Sorry if too personal But I remember you saying  that you were mixed, may I ask if your part West African(As in From the Former French West African Colonies) ? If so from which country?



My mother is from Cameroon. I follow how francophone Africa evolve.  There are lot of potential but they have to deal with Al Qaeda over there.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 22, 2016)

The religion of peace strikes again. You have to Wonder how many  more times this has to happen before people wake up and actually stop being afraid of political correctness so common sense preventive measures can happen

And lol@mods Trying to prevent a discussion of Islamic terrorism in a thread about Islamic terrorism. I guess we just have to give useless banal insincere condolences like a jackass


----------



## Zaru (Mar 22, 2016)

Wow this attack brought Mega back


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Saishin said:


> It's true,especially for Turkey there wasn't much media coverage and a strong attention abroad.



I'm sure they received much more attention in countries around them like I'm sure the Brussels attacks receive less attention in Asia than in Europe.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Le M�le Absolu said:


> Depend. Here in France,  the attacks in Ivory Coast or Mali are much more covered than the one in Turkey.  We feel closer and far more concerned.  I didn't post a thread about Ivory Coast attacks because of the high level of ignorance about Africa in this forum.  It really annoy me.



Journalists were also kidnapped in Mali.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Well Mega, I'm glad to see you again, even if you disapprove of our modding. 




Mael said:


> Feels before reals.
> 
> Yeah it's rare I agree with you Mega but I'm disappointed in the mods here, especially Amanda.  I mean shadow's a Swede so I expect this to a degree...but not a Finn.




Are you expecting me to rebel against Distracted? And Shadow hasn't even been to this thread afaik...


----------



## WT (Mar 22, 2016)

If mods were less strict, this thread wouls have turned into a Paris 2.0 thread with the exact same accusations and rebuttel. I think its apt that mods are trying to cut that bullshit and focus on the real tragedy of today.


----------



## Kathutet (Mar 22, 2016)

Zaru said:


> Wow this attack brought Mega back



His aura is strong


----------



## Mael (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Are you expecting me to rebel against Distracted? And Shadow hasn't even been to this thread afaik...



Yes.  Distracted is Soviet and you're a Finn.  You're supposed to kick his ass, sea bass.


----------



## Saishin (Mar 22, 2016)

Le M�le Absolu said:


> I'm sure they received much more attention in countries around them like I'm sure the Brussels attacks receive less attention in Asia than in Europe.


Maybe is as you said,but in the social medias I think the attacks in Europe received more attention than the attacks in Turkey although an hashtag for the last attack in Ankara was made but especially in the tv medias it didn't received the same level of solidarity,for example no foreign politician went to Ankara to march like they did for Paris or even in Tunisia.


----------



## Saishin (Mar 22, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> In Texas you can open carry into the Airport right up to the security checkpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> I've actually never been in an airport that has more security in the ticketing area besides hypothetical "all visitors are subject to random inspection" notices.


Texas is crazy,well also other states allowed the open carry of fire arms so it's not only Texas


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Saishin said:


> Maybe is as you said,but in the social medias I think the attacks in Europe received more attention than the attacks in Turkey although an hashtag for the last attack in Ankara was made but especially in the tv medias it didn't received the same level of solidarity,for example no foreign politician went to Ankara to march like they did for Paris or even in Tunisia.





To be absolutely honest, with the Ankara and Istanbul attacks I'm always hit with the cynical thought that they could be a false flag, or at least will be attempted to be used as such against the Kurds. 



Mael said:


> Yes.  Distracted is Soviet and you're a Finn.  You're supposed to kick his ass, sea bass.




I wonder how long I would be a mod, then.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Saishin said:


> Maybe is as you said,but in the social medias I think the attacks in Europe received more attention than the attacks in Turkey although an hashtag for the last attack in Ankara was made but especially in the tv medias it didn't received the same level of solidarity,for example no foreign politician went to Ankara to march like they did for Paris or even in Tunisia.



Hollande was actually in Tunisia for a march just like in Paris. Like I said,  we feel more or less concerned depending our links with others countries. French feel closer to it former colonies than with Turkey. I saw many support for Ivory Coast on Facebook but not even a thread for it on NF.  Do I blame you guys? No,  I understand you guys care less however I blame those who play the moralists by using Turkey or Africa. The moralists do that because they feel guilty for not caring that much and try to elevate themselves by blaming the other to feel better.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Are you expecting me to rebel against Distracted? And Shadow hasn't even been to this thread afaik...


It is your destiny to overthrow him and Establish the Cafe Khanate


----------



## Krory (Mar 22, 2016)

Kenneth said:


> His aura is strong



More like the Islamophobia he shares with Mael and Seto.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Le M�le Absolu said:


> Hollande was actually in Tunisia for a march just like in Paris. Like I said,  we feel more or less concerned depending our links with others countries. French feel closer to it former colonies than with Turkey. I saw many support for Ivory Coast on Facebook but not even a thread for it on NF.  Do I blame you guys? No,  I understand you guys care less however I blame those who play the moralists by using Turkey or Africa. The moralists do that because they feel guilty for not caring that much and try to elevate themselves by blaming the other to feel better.




I actually care about Turkey and Africa... 

Even if most of my Turkey posts are whining about Erdogan.

You should certainly post more news about Africa, though. It's the certain topics that attract most comments, but don't let that discourage you.



Zyrax Pasha said:


> It is your destiny to overthrow him and Establish the Cafe Khanate




Hush... We don't talk about it.... Yet...


----------



## Saishin (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> To be absolutely honest, with the Ankara and Istanbul attacks I'm always hit with the cynical thought that they could be a false flag, or at least will be attempted to be used as such against the Kurds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah but the attacks had a clear islamist sign so even if they wanted to use it against the kurds they couldn't anyway.

@Mega you should go on Twitter and click on the hashtag #Muslims many tweets in solidarity of the Muslim community,stating that not all the Muslims are integralists,you'll have fun


----------



## Mael (Mar 22, 2016)

Rey said:


> More like the Islamophobia he shares with Mael and Seto.



Talk about a bullshit term, Islamophobia.

You all of a sudden getting on us because it's not Islam vs. vidya?


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> I actually care about Turkey and Africa...
> 
> Even if most of my Turkey posts are whining about Erdogan.
> 
> You should certainly post more news about Africa, though. It's the certain topics that attract most comments, but don't let that discourage you.



I rather not post events about Africa to not have to read ignorant shits again.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

They seem to have adopted Tintin for these attacks:








By the way, the Belgians and French here, they said there was some arguing between France and Belgium about the Paris attacks and the (lack of) co-operation between the countries. Some even went as far as blamed Belgium for them. What is that all about?




Le M�le Absolu said:


> I rather not post events about Africa to not have to read ignorant shits again.




Well then...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 22, 2016)

The sad thing is, the target of these attacks are mostly educated and civilized bunch, and the way they retaliate means nothing to extreme Islamists.


----------



## Saishin (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> I actually care about Turkey and Africa...


Awww it's good that you care about them


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Still no confirmed death toll... It's taking some time, but I guess it's hard to tell how many people there were?



> No confirmed death toll figures - federal prosecutor
> 
> Belgian Federal Prosecutor Frederic van Leeuw has said there are still no confirmed figures regarding fatalities and casualties; various controlled explosions have taken place during the day on suspect packages by the bomb squad and it is too early to make a direct link with last year's Paris attacks.
> 
> He also said there were ongoing investigations around the country.




http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-35869266



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The sad thing is, the target of these attacks are mostly educated and civilized bunch, and the way they retaliate means nothing to extreme Islamists.




Yes, sadly.

There isn't much to do in the end. Tighter security, yes, but some will still always get through. Tighter immigration policy that sees the end of this open borders madness is underway already, but most of the terrorists are home bred anyway. 



Saishin said:


> Awww it's good that you care about them




Is it? Me caring doesn't really make it summer or winter for them....


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> They seem to have adopted Tintin for these attacks:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can understand the blame on Belgium but it go anywhere to do that. 
Belgium is basically a central base for terrorism in Europe.  Lot of terrorist in the Paris attacks  are from Belgium.  The armed guy in the train came by a train from Belgium.  
Daesh have all his organisation in Belgium and if a terrorist in X country want make an attacks he'll go find weapons and everything he need in Belgium. The Charlie Hebdo terrorists were also in Belgium. 
So Belgium have a lot of work to but of course they are not alone in this case.


----------



## Saishin (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Is it? Me caring doesn't really make it summer or winter for them....


Even though it is something that you must be proud of  

Btw isn't Tintin French?


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Le M�le Absolu said:


> I can understand the blame on Belgium but it go anywhere to do that.
> Belgium is basically a central base for terrorism in Europe.  Lot of terrorist in the Paris attacks  are from Belgium.  The armed guy in the train came by a train from Belgium.
> Daesh have all his organisation in Belgium and if a terrorist in X country want make an attacks he'll go find weapons and everything he need in Belgium. The Charlie Hebdo terrorists were also in Belgium.
> So Belgium have a lot of work to but of course they are not alone in this case.




Belgium indeed seems to be the epicenter of the European terrorist problem...




Saishin said:


> Even though it is something that you must be proud of




Oh quit mocking me, I said it in defense. And no, it's not something I'm proud of. I'm all too well aware of what a sad cynical cunt I am to get excited about such feelings.




Saishin said:


> Btw isn't Tintin French?




The sacrilege! 

Tintin is Belgian, of course.



> *Attack in Brussels is part of a 'far bigger picture'*
> 
> In Belgium, on the streets and amongst political and security chiefs Tuesday's attacks are seen not as an isolated incident but as part of a far bigger picture - an attack on Europe - in the heart of Europe.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-35869266


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Yes, sadly.
> 
> There isn't much to do in the end. Tighter security, yes, but some will still always get through. Tighter immigration policy that sees the end of this open borders madness is underway already, but most of the terrorists are home bred anyway.




I think 3rd world war under the name of war against terror seems like the only option, as barbaric as it is, there is no other way of getting rid of the threat coming from the middle east.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 22, 2016)

Mael said:


> Talk about a bullshit term, Islamophobia.
> 
> You all of a sudden getting on us because it's not Islam vs. vidya?



It's a misuse of the term either way.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think 3rd world war under the name of war against terror seems like the only option, as barbaric as it is, there is no other way of getting rid of the threat coming from the middle east.




I wonder... As said, most European terrorists are homebred. Perhaps if you removed Saudi Arabia and its Wahhabism spreading ways it would have some impact.

Ohh, a livestream:

[YOUTUBE]EIoaknrMfkw[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Tintin is Belgian, of course.


40% of Belgians are French anyway
With the Rest being Dutch who are Franks who weren't latinized unlike the French


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Belgium is for France what Canada is for the US.


----------



## αce (Mar 22, 2016)

meh, islamaphobia as a term makes no sense on it's own and i was very against it just a year ago
but read_ towards a political philosophy of race_ by falguni sheath if you want an opposing view to your own

its an interesting critique of how liberal democatic societies have lead to (and not just in the muslims case, although she focuses on muslims and asians) racism and racialized groups 


might not agree with it, but i really hope i don't get the same "that's b.s." bla bla the cafe usually does
i found it convincing and it was very well researched. changed my view on the matter



the term is applicable in some scenarios
i would defend it's use if it's proper


----------



## ExoSkel (Mar 22, 2016)

34 reported dead according to BBC.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

αce said:


> ...........what?


He is right you know


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Mar 22, 2016)

Mr. Nice Guy said:


> When europe ban muslims from entering their countries.
> Another good action will be to start expelling majority of the muslims from now own.
> 
> 
> ...



Apparently, and this is the thing, we have to _integrate_ these Muslims already here into society, somehow.

While ignoring the white elephant (or is that a pig) in the room.

That is ignoring Islam's nasty qualities.

What nasty qualities?

Well, all of it.

B-but Islam is religion of _peace_ that believes in equality between the sexes and non-Muslims!

We can only integrate them if they're compatible with our laws and way of life, not exempt from it.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

αce said:


> meh, islamaphobia as a term makes no sense on it's own and i was very against it just a year ago
> but read_ towards a political philosophy of race_ by falguni sheath if you want an opposing view to your own
> 
> its an interesting critique of how liberal democatic societies have lead to (and not just in the muslims case, although she focuses on muslims and asians) racism and racialized groups




It would be interesting to hear the reasoning used, because I tend to think myself that liberal societies create extremism, but their thought process that led to the same conclusion might have been different...

And yes, Islamophobia as a term doesn't really make sense to me. Too many things are called "phobia" anyway, even when there's completely rational reasons to be afraid of them.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 22, 2016)

Oedipa said:


> Apparently, and this is the thing, we have to _integrate_ these Muslims already here into society, somehow.
> 
> While ignoring the white elephant (or is that a pig) in the room.
> 
> ...



So you have some sort of _final solution_ in mind then?


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

You can't remove Muslims from Europe at this point. It's not physically possible, unless you call for an ethnic cleansing... Which would kill millions more than the terrorists ever could. You can't ban an idea either, as that's practically impossible - ideas only go underground. But you do have to acknowledge the problems at hand, and recognize the people who can do something about them.

Had missed this bit:



> An explosive device containing nails, chemical products and a flag of the so-called Islamic State were found during raids in Brussels.



http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-35869266

Well, at least they found something... If that helps them in the long run...


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 22, 2016)

Not being a pussy and all but I'm really terrified that Olympics are here in Brazil ... Thanks god I'm not from Rio nor do I live in Rio, nor I'll be attending to Olympics in Rio ... I still use subway everyday on the largest city of the country tho .


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Not being a pussy and all but I'm really terrified that Olympics are here in Brazil ... Thanks god I'm not from Rio nor do I live in Rio, nor I'll be attending to Olympics in Rio ... I still use subway everyday on the largest city of the country tho .



Don't... They aren't active on the American soils, it's Europe where it's game on for them. It's their second home turf. 

Euro2016 is in significantly bigger danger.



Rooftops?


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Mar 22, 2016)

Some of the comments here frighten me and I do not even live in Europe.

Are you seriously endorsing racial profiling and cleansing Muslims and indirectly linking it as a race and such a thing as a "Muslim" look, despite it being a religion.

Then, not only will I feel sorry for the practicing Muslims who have done nothing wrong, but also the racially ambiguous looking people who will be labelled "Muslim" or "Middle Eastern" because they cannot figure out what you are if the police decide to raid your room and go through more scrutiny at airport security even after checking your bags in x-Ray machine.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 22, 2016)

The term Islamophobia is perfectly fine and describes an unfounded fear/hatred towards Islam/Muslims in general. And we have plenty of that in the Cafe.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Mar 22, 2016)

Why people jump the gun, I dunno.

Oh noes ethic cleansing accusations, please.

How about stop turning a blind eye to female genital mutilations, honor killings and sharia courts and other regressive shit that's conveniently coddled as being something _cultural_ and thus off limits to criticism under the pretense of _islamophobia_, and ignored. These _cultural_ aspects are incompatible in modern European societies.

Is_lamb_ apologists bleating in 3... 2... 1...



Son of Goku said:


> The term Islamophobia is perfectly fine and describes an unfounded fear/hatred towards Islam/Muslims in general. And we have plenty of that in the Cafe.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 22, 2016)

Fruits Basket Fan said:


> , but also the racially ambiguous looking people who will be labelled "Muslim" or "Middle Eastern" because they cannot figure out what you are if the police decide to raid your room and go through more scrutiny at airport security even after checking your bags in x-Ray machine.


You are always bringing this up

What happened?


----------



## WT (Mar 22, 2016)

What people need to understand is that ISIS is not reacting, it was created with a very specific goal which has been evidenced historically, was proved again today and a few days back in Turkey. They have used a violent and extreme form Islam and promises of money, jobs and security to indoctrinate and lure people to aid them into fulfilling their barbaric objective; a war they have waged on any innocent who disagrees with them.


----------



## Mael (Mar 22, 2016)

Son of Goku said:


> The term Islamophobia is perfectly fine and describes an unfounded fear/hatred towards Islam/Muslims in general. And we have plenty of that in the Cafe.



It's perfectly founded...so long as large swathes of followers seem intent on bringing in bits of culture that have no place in Western/Eastern societies and also a penchant for violence over religious sensitivities.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Remember the time when they said ISIS isn't a threat to the West because it only attacks in Middle-East? Yeah...

Though there's still plenty more for them to do:


*Spoiler*: _ISIS goes global_ 





By CNN


----------



## Yahiko (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> *You can't remove Muslims from Europe at this point. It's not physically possible,* unless you call for an ethnic cleansing... Which would kill millions more than the terrorists ever could. You can't ban an idea either, as that's practically impossible - ideas only go underground. But you do have to acknowledge the problems at hand, and recognize the people who can do something about them.
> 
> Had missed this bit:
> 
> ...


Then be prepared to deal with more attacks like these in the future. For this is never going to end. Its too late for Europe.
Thats your answer Kusanagi.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Remember the time when they said ISIS isn't a threat to the West because it only attacks in Middle-East? Yeah...
> 
> Though there's still plenty more for them to do:
> 
> ...



tfw no south american isis base 

its cartel territory down hea


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Mar 22, 2016)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> You are always bringing this up
> 
> What happened?



When your family and I are shunned by some of our neighbors who are Trump supporters and spread rumors that we are Middle Eastern or light skin Pakistani (Muslim) because we look more Mediterranean than Mexican (in their view, Mexicans are suppose to be short, indigenous, and dark skin)....you would understand why comments like those scare me and I fear for people who look slightly different from the Nordic and Germanic descent majority in our community.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> You can't remove Muslims from Europe at this point. It's not physically possible, unless you call for an ethnic cleansing... Which would kill millions more than the terrorists ever could. You can't ban an idea either, as that's practically impossible - ideas only go underground. But you do have to acknowledge the problems at hand, and recognize the people who can do something about them.
> ...



If you look recent history Algeria almost did something similar.  After the independence,  a large exodus of white European left the country and it lead to a significant decrease of Catholicism in Algeria.

I'm not for it but I want to prove that it already happened in the history and we can't say that it's impossible.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Mar 22, 2016)

Mr. Nice Guy said:


> Then be prepared to deal with more attacks like these in the future. For this is never going to end. Its too late for Europe.
> Thats your answer Kusanagi.



So what you're basically saying is: No More Mr. Nice Guy?


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Mr. Nice Guy said:


> Then be prepared to deal with more attacks like these in the future. For this is never going to end. Its too late for Europe.
> Thats your answer Kusanagi.




I'm very pessimistic about the future of Europe. In fact, in my dystopian visions I see wars here already during my own lifetime. 

(But of course I recognize future can't be predicted with any true accuracy. We could have a black swan that changes everything.)



wad said:


> tfw no south american isis base
> 
> its cartel territory down hea




Ah yes, didn't the cartels declare war on ISIS or something? 



Le M�le Absolu said:


> If you look recent history Algeria almost did something similar.  After the independence,  a large exodus of white European left the country and it lead to a significant decrease of Catholicism in Algeria.
> 
> I'm not for it but I want to prove that it already happened in the history and we can't say that it's impossible.





Well, yes. If the Muslims themselves decide to leave Europe for a reason or another... But removing them with force? Surely that is technically possible, with enough guns, but do we want to go there?


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

> *Key clue in Brussels attacks: The explosives*
> 
> (CNN)On Tuesday morning, Brussels was hit by terrorist attacks at transportation hubs -- at the airport and at a subway station. Sadly, we have seen such multiple, deadly assaults on transportation targets in Europe before.
> 
> ...


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 22, 2016)

Mael said:


> It's perfectly founded...so long as large swathes of followers seem intent on bringing in bits of culture that have no place in Western/Eastern societies and also a penchant for violence over religious sensitivities.



Europe's radical muslims are usually born and raised in Europe. They were radicalized in European cities which makes them a homegrown problem. And yes, it needs to be dealt with and prevented from happening. But to conflate the issue of radical islam with refugees or migration of muslims in general, is exactly what Islamophobes do.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Ava... Mael.... Don't. Stay on topic. Don't get personal.


----------



## WT (Mar 22, 2016)

Khaleesi said:


> I can't tell if you're joking or not but I really hope you are because this "blame the West" scapegoat that's been popularized is a reason why the actual problem never gets addressed
> 
> 
> Turkey was basically funding ISIS and they still got hit, so that rhetoric holds little power



Reason why this problem will never get addressed is because a lot of countries actually benefit from an unstable middle east, something which ISIS and other religious factions are very good at doing...


----------



## Kusa (Mar 22, 2016)

Some people here leave me speechless. Threads like this sadly show more than it should about *some* user on nf.

 I also don't think the islam is peaceful, one of the reasons why I decided to be not a muslim but jesus some people here would like anyone who is from middle eastern watch to burn to ashes.


----------



## WT (Mar 22, 2016)

Kusanagi said:


> I also don't think the islam is peaceful, one of the reasons why I decided to be not a muslim but jesus some people here would like anyone who is from middle eastern watch to burn to ashes.



Nothing is really peaceful ...


----------



## Savior (Mar 22, 2016)

Mael said:


> Different circumstances.  Different perps.
> 
> Kinda funny how it's never uniform.  Maybe you should understand that but I'm half-surprised you weren't bending over for Islam here.



Uhh they were both terror attacks. What's with the double standard..

These actions don't reflect Islam. There maniacs have their own agenda and should certainly be stopped. I want to see where they got their weapons and explosives from and how they were radicalized.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Ava said:


> We're not allowed to have a simple conversation?
> 
> I don't mind if he gets emotional and starts flaming.




Don't tempt him to verbally abuse you, you know he won't need any urging there - and then I will have to clean after you.


----------



## Krory (Mar 22, 2016)

Kusanagi said:


> Some people here leave me speechless. Threads like this sadly show more than it should about *some* user on nf.
> 
> I also don't think the islam is peaceful, one of the reasons why I decided to be not a muslim but jesus some people here would like anyone who is from middle eastern watch to burn to ashes.



Mostly it seems people think all _Muslims_ should be rounded up and either executed or put into a camp like the Japanese-Americans were during World War II.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 22, 2016)

Khaleesi said:


> I can't tell if you're joking or not but I really hope you are because this "blame the West" scapegoat that's been popularized is a reason why the actual problem never gets addressed
> 
> 
> Turkey was basically funding ISIS and they still got hit, so that rhetoric holds little power



What Ava said is part of a greater and complex truth. The reason the IS can point at the West and call them enemies of Islam are the wars the West waged and is still waging in muslim countries. It would be much harder to point at Brazil or China and declare them enemies and convince some potential new IS member that Brazilians or Chinese deserve to die.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Mar 22, 2016)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Are there Cartels in Cuba?



There's cartel everywhere in Latin America and any major U.S hub (Miami, Texas, SoCal, etc.)


----------



## WT (Mar 22, 2016)

Amanda said:


> Don't tempt him to verbally abuse you, you know he won't need any urging there - and then I will have to clean after you.



I can't count the times he's called me a muzzie scum.

He seems to neg like a bitch quite a lot. My CP is filled with them


----------



## Deleted member 235437 (Mar 22, 2016)

Son of Goku said:


> What Ava said is part of a greater and complex truth. The reason the IS can point at the West and call them enemies of Islam are the wars the West waged and is still waging in muslim countries. It would be much harder to point at Brazil or China and declare them enemies and convince some potential new IS member that Brazilians or Chinese deserve to die.



Should've changed my reply a bit because I am aware that western intervention in the Middle East has played a role in what ISIS has become today. The sad truth is however that like you said it's just a part of a much bigger problem. I just don't agree when people point to the West as being the sole reason for tragedies like these and ignoring the other parts


----------



## WT (Mar 22, 2016)

Mael said:


> Yes you did.  The second you posted you implied Belgium had some share of the blame.
> 
> Now you have to account for it.



Belgium is one of the founding members of Nato, who are at war with ISIS and I hope Nato destroys ISIS


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Ok guys, Distracted said no no to another Great Islam Debate in this thread, so... 

You're getting off topic, which is this immediate event, not the entire phenomenom of Islamic terrorism, or even Islam in general. Take that to the debate threads - one was made just for this topic.


----------



## αce (Mar 22, 2016)

Thanks for the irrelevant link, as if I didn't know what a caliphate is. 



> Ok guys, Distracted said no no to another Great Islam Debate in this thread, so...
> 
> You're getting off topic, which is this immediate event, not the entire phenomenom of Islamic terrorism, or even Islam in general. Take that to the debate threads - one was made just for this topic.




ok well im out then


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Last warning. Beyond this post I will start deleting your off topic.


----------



## WT (Mar 22, 2016)

I saw police at the train stations in the UK today. Seems like the shock wave has hit home


----------



## Parallax (Mar 22, 2016)

wad said:


> tfw no south american isis base
> 
> its cartel territory down hea



Isis isn't dumb enough to attack Cartel countries, considering they're multi billion enterprises that specialize in raping pillaging and killing.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 22, 2016)

Mael said:


> How is talking about Belgium off topic?




It's not.

Vatican vs Iran is.


----------



## Nello (Mar 22, 2016)

BTW here's a link to the Islam debate thread for those who want to discuss that:


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

When is the next election in Belgium?


----------



## Hand Banana (Mar 22, 2016)

The next Belgian federal election will take place on the same day as the 2019 European Parliament elections and the 2019 Belgian regional elections.

-- Wikipedia.


----------



## eHav (Mar 22, 2016)

Le M�le Absolu said:


> When is the next election in Belgium?



the king said something would be done, we should wait and see what measures are taken first.

on the topic of elections, it just adds more fuel to right wing parties, which altho suck in a ton of issues have most of the support when it comes to immigration policies


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 22, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]7rsE1TDtJPA[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Bender said:


> Holy shit and it's been only four months since ISIS last attack.



And the time lapse has also gotten down: January, December, March.


----------



## Distracted (Mar 22, 2016)

*Time to clean this thread up.*


----------



## Distracted (Mar 22, 2016)

*I removed 166 posts from this thread.*

I would try to express my frustration at all of you, but I'm going to try to do something different as a solution for this.  For now, do not make this about the greater potential threat of Islam.  Just because something is 'tangentially' related doesn't mean we can make that the main content of an entire thread.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Nice job Distracted!


Edit:

Well, CNN says State Department gave a travel warning to Americans to avoid Europe for now.


----------



## Koshimazasuzuki (Mar 22, 2016)

January 2016

[YOUTUBE]PL7hvXeOAKw[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 22, 2016)

Koshimazasuzuki said:


> January 2016
> 
> [YOUTUBE]PL7hvXeOAKw[/YOUTUBE]




Why must the sky be overcast in that video too.


----------



## dr_shadow (Mar 23, 2016)

I feel like it's only a matter of time before there is a successful terrorist attack on Sweden as well. 

There was one attempted in 2010, but luckily the guy turned out to be incompetent and only blew up himself in an alley, while unloading the explosives from his car.


----------



## eHav (Mar 23, 2016)

mr_shadow said:


> I feel like it's only a matter of time before there is a successful terrorist attack on Sweden as well.
> 
> There was one attempted in 2010, but luckily the guy turned out to be incompetent and only blew up himself in an alley, while unloading the explosives from his car.



sweden has enough problems as it is already without needing extreme terrorism. maybe work on fixing that first


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

Megaharrison said:


> The religion of peace strikes again. You have to Wonder how many  more times this has to happen before people wake up and actually stop being afraid of political correctness so common sense preventive measures can happen
> 
> And lol@mods Trying to prevent a discussion of Islamic terrorism in a thread about Islamic terrorism. I guess we just have to give *useless* banal insincere condolences like a jackass



Like most of discussions on NF were useful 

It's just an anime forum...


----------



## Mider T (Mar 23, 2016)

Le Male....Le Mael.


----------



## dr_shadow (Mar 23, 2016)

*Brussels attacks should spur common EU defense strategy: Renzi*



> *Deadly attacks in Brussels have underlined the need for the European Union to develop a common defense and security strategy, Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi said on Tuesday.*
> 
> Speaking after at least 30 people were killed in coordinated bombings in the Belgian capital, Renzi said Europe's enemies were sometimes homegrown, often protected by a code of honor and silence within their own communities.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-blast-eu-renzi-idUSKCN0WO2EM


----------



## Mider T (Mar 23, 2016)

Never let a good tragedy go to waste.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

mr_shadow said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-blast-eu-renzi-idUSKCN0WO2EM



Lot of countries doesn't want to take responsibility of their defense. You have a chance to achieve something if you work outside the EU organism with an alliance of European countries that want to work together on this field. We can't achieve something with the EU but as individuals countries working outside this sphere, we can.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

*Prison : Special treatment for Salah Abdeslam *

"Hello!  It's the 72 virgins!  "


----------



## Yahiko (Mar 23, 2016)

Why did you ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) delete my post? 
My last post was not off topic. 


I asked the poster what he/she thinks europe should do to avoid terrorist attacks in the future.


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 23, 2016)

Mr. Nice Guy said:


> Why did you ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) delete my post?
> My last post was not off topic.
> 
> 
> I asked the poster what he/she thinks europe should do to avoid terrorist attacks in the future.



Maybe you should've have asked something less prone to lead to religion talk. 

Like...were the explosions painful? 

Or how much $$$ will go into fixing those bombed places?


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 23, 2016)

How the fuck did that scum get last the security of the airport like that? Why do they not learn anything?

Here in Israel he would have been stopped at the gate. He wouldn't even get a chance to set his dirty feet ibside the airport.


----------



## Mael (Mar 23, 2016)

Edward Newgate said:


> How the fuck did that scum get last the security of the airport like that? Why do they not learn anything?
> 
> Here in Israel he would have been stopped at the gate. He wouldn't even get a chance to set his dirty feet ibside the airport.



Because Israel has a very good reason to be armed to the teeth in airports given they're surrounded by enemies within and without.

Belgium, like many European nations, try to give their citizens this notion they don't need to be like fortresses whether it be out of pure benevolence or some weird notion of not wanting to look American.


----------



## dr_shadow (Mar 23, 2016)

*Map of Brussels airport*



The blue areas (departure hall) are open to anyone. You just walk in the door.
The purple areas (boarding gates) require passing a security checkpoint.

In most airports I've been to, people in the departure hall will usually be quite spread out. Except for those standing in line to the check-in counters - which are some distance apart- you'll rarely get more than five people standing together in a neat group. Unless you go into a cafe where you might have like twenty or so.

And the boarding gates you obviously can't get to without being caught.

Therefore, if I was a crazy jihadist, what I'd do is -ironically- blow myself up *while standing in line to the security checkpoint*. Because that's where you'll have the most people standing packed neatly together, so they'll for sure be within the blast radius of a human-mounted bomb.


----------



## eHav (Mar 23, 2016)

Edward Newgate said:


> How the fuck did that scum get last the security of the airport like that? Why do they not learn anything?
> 
> Here in Israel he would have been stopped at the gate. He wouldn't even get a chance to set his dirty feet ibside the airport.



from what i read once i think israel didnt have a very strict airport security until they got hit with a terrorist attack. then they completely revamped their security measures becuse unlike european countries Israel does put their own people safety as a priority. They tried to get the US to adopt the same security measures but they weren't interested because of how much it would cost. Then 9/11 happened and now the US adopted a better security system in airports.

How many more terrorist attacks need to happen in europe for things to change i wonder


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 23, 2016)

eHav said:


> from what i read once i think israel didnt have a very strick airport security until they got hit with a terrorist attack. then they completely revamped their security measures becuse unlike european countries Israel does put their own people safety as a priority. They tried to get the US to adopt the same security measures but they weren't interested because of how much it would cost. Then 9/11 happened and now the US adopted a better security system in airports.
> 
> How many more terrorist attacks need to happen in europe for things to change i wonder


Well yeah, the last terror attack on the airport was like over 30 years ago.

The TSA have a pretty terrible record of letting weapons aboard the planes though.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 23, 2016)

Part of it is Israel far fewer airports.  And they're on average far smaller.

The largest (and arguably only significant) airport, Ben Gurion, has on average 36,000 passengers a day, that would put it as the 20th largest airport if it were in the U.S.  The 6 largest airports in Israel combined would still be behind Detroit for passengers serviced (#17 on the U.S. list).

It's a might easier to secure than the massive air-travel industry in place in the U.S.


----------



## reaperunique (Mar 23, 2016)

Edward Newgate said:


> How the fuck did that scum get last the security of the airport like that? Why do they not learn anything?
> 
> Here in Israel he would have been stopped at the gate. He wouldn't even get a chance to set his dirty feet ibside the airport.





Mael said:


> Because Israel has a very good reason to be armed to the teeth in airports given they're surrounded by enemies within and without.
> 
> Belgium, like many European nations, try to give their citizens this notion they don't need to be like fortresses whether it be out of pure benevolence or some weird notion of not wanting to look American.



Because people that actually design these things and know a thing or two about security stated the following.

Translated article from Belgian news paper_ "De Tijd", Vanbrussel, E., 'Extra controles aan ingang zijn zinloos', 23/03/2016_:
ACI Europe reports the following after the attacks on the airport of Zaventem.

Extra security checks at the entrance of an airport would move the target of terrorists  not prevent it.

De attack on the airport in Zaventem brings back the memories of the attack on the one in Moscow. The attack that took place in 2011 took the lives of 37 and wounded 173. That attack also took place on the land side like the one yesterday. In Zaventem the attack happened at the departure hall, the one in Russia in the entry hall. 
Such spaces where everyone can walk in and out from are far less secure than the air side where you need to have a boarding pass to enter. In between you have security checks that checks for guns and explosives.
If you move the security check to the entrance of the airport like in some Asian countries you will just create new weaknesses in terms of security. If you move the gathering of all those people to spaces that are not really suited to perform the security checks you will only move the target. Additional security checks are also unrealistic and inefficient.
 Besides, the land side doesn’t fall under the airport specific security measures and can thus be compared to shopping malls and train stations.

image of the article (in Dutch):

*Spoiler*: __ 








----------------------

Also just in, the persons behind the attacks are the brothers *El Bakraoui*.

Ibrahim El Bakraoui blew himself up at the airport. His brother Khalid was responsible for the attack in the metro at Maalbeek.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

Mael said:


> Because Israel has a very good reason to be armed to the teeth in airports given they're surrounded by enemies within and without.
> 
> Belgium, like many European nations, try to give their citizens this notion they don't need to be like fortresses whether it be out of pure benevolence or *some weird notion of not wanting to look American*.



Why you always center everything on the US? 
Plus from my different travel in and outside Europe,  I do not remember control to access to airport. The first control come when you want to access to the gates areas. I  don't think the US airports are different from European one on this.


----------



## Mael (Mar 23, 2016)

Le M�le Absolu said:


> Why you always center everything on the US?
> Plus from my different travel in and outside Europe,  I do not remember control to access to airport. The first control come when you want to access to the gates areas. I  don't think the US airports are different from European one on this.





The way commentary from Europe comes about how the US puts on a security show, you'd think sometimes they'd go out of their way to show how much better they are.

But I admit this was mostly a bait statement.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

Mael said:


> The way commentary from Europe comes about how the US puts on a security show, you'd think sometimes they'd go out of their way to show how much better they are.
> 
> But I admit this was mostly a bait statement.



Bait in a thread about the terrorists attacks....


----------



## Savior (Mar 23, 2016)

Edward Newgate said:


> How the fuck did that scum get last the security of the airport like that? Why do they not learn anything?
> 
> Here in Israel he would have been stopped at the gate. He wouldn't even get a chance to set his dirty feet ibside the airport.



Have you even any idea how security works in most countries at airports. Good for you and Israel but we don't care to live in such an ultra heightened security state.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 23, 2016)

Savior said:


> Have you even any idea how security works in most countries at airports. Good for you and Israel but we don't care to live in such an ultra heightened security state.


Nobody argued that the rest of the world should adopt Israel's Policies


----------



## Mael (Mar 23, 2016)

Savior said:


> Have you even any idea how security works in most countries at airports. Good for you and Israel but we don't care to live in such an ultra heightened security state.



Seeing how he's Israeli, yes, he does know how security works.

And better safe than sorry, kiddo.  Keep on crying about it, though.


----------



## Savior (Mar 23, 2016)

Mael said:


> Seeing how he's Israeli, yes, he does know how security works.
> 
> And better safe than sorry, kiddo.  Keep on crying about it, though.



Sounds like we have a man here ready to just let the government take away all his liberties in the name of "security."


----------



## Hand Banana (Mar 23, 2016)

Savior said:


> Sounds like we have a man here ready to just let the government take away all his liberties in the name of "security."



You and Klad went to the same school didn't you?


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 23, 2016)

Savior said:


> Sounds like we have a man here ready to just let the government take away all his liberties in the name of "security."


t. The man who is ready  to just let the government take away all his liberties in the name of "Tolerance"


----------



## Mael (Mar 23, 2016)

Savior said:


> Sounds like we have a man here ready to just let the government take away all his liberties in the name of "security."



Gonna throw in that stupid Ben Franklin line while we're at it?

You're the guy who wants to criminalize hate speech and hire folks simply due to gender and nothing else.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 23, 2016)

I think we need an extra mod just to mod Mael's post. 

I wouldn't mind...


----------



## Mael (Mar 23, 2016)

Lol knew you'd also be inclined to have a more controlling mod arena.  Wow the irony on the both of you.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 23, 2016)

Mael said:


> Lol knew you'd also be inclined to have a more controlling mod arena.  Wow the irony on the both of you.



I'm fine either way, really. I prefer a less hostile environment, but I also enjoy a good flamewar, as you will know.


----------



## Krory (Mar 23, 2016)

.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 23, 2016)

Sorry if it's been posted already, but an interesting tidbit:



> BRUSSELS — A month before the Paris terrorist attacks, Mayor Françoise Schepmans of Molenbeek, a Brussels district long notorious as a haven for jihadists, received a list with the names and addresses of more than 80 people suspected as Islamic militants living in her area.
> 
> The list, based on information from Belgium’s security apparatus, included two brothers who would take part in the bloodshed in France on Nov. 13, as well as the man suspected of being the architect of the terrorist plot, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a Molenbeek resident who had left for Syria to fight for the Islamic State in early 2014.
> 
> “What was I supposed to do about them? It is not my job to track possible terrorists,” Ms. Schepmans said in an interview. That, she added, “is the responsibility of the federal police.”


----------



## Banhammer (Mar 23, 2016)

>Applying a Franklin quote to a Belgium environment

Tell you what, we'll see to that after the EU abolishes the welfare state and recognizes the rights to bear arms


----------



## Overwatch (Mar 23, 2016)

Son of Goku said:


> I think we need an extra mod just to mod Mael's post.
> 
> I wouldn't mind...



Only if Savior's unsightly stupidity gets the same treatment.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 23, 2016)

> “What was I supposed to do about them? It is not my job to track possible terrorists,” Ms. Schepmans said in an interview. That, she added, “is the responsibility of the federal police.”


Then why didn't she tell the Federal Police?


----------



## Mael (Mar 23, 2016)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Then why didn't she tell the Federal Police?



Didn't wanna be wacist?


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 23, 2016)

I mean, it's not like, the Mayor is supposed to fight for the well being of the people he/she represents, right ?


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

It gonna be hard,  very hard for the arabs in Europe.  Too much attacks dirt these people.


----------



## Hand Banana (Mar 23, 2016)

It's making it hard for Arabs to go anywhere tbh.


----------



## eHav (Mar 23, 2016)

looks like there's already a white flag flying over a brussels cathedral. that was a quick surrender. 

singing holding hands and facebook posts will show these terrorists!


----------



## Mael (Mar 23, 2016)

eHav said:


> looks like there's already a white flag flying over a brussels cathedral. that was a quick surrender.
> 
> singing holding hands and facebook posts will show these terrorists!



Is there a story behind this?


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

What do you expect from Belgium?


----------



## eHav (Mar 23, 2016)

Mael said:


> Is there a story behind this?





not in brussels tho, i was mislead by the one who showed me this

still the sentiment remains, all these "demonstradions" do absolutely nothing


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

These demonstration are necessary.  Not to fight the terrorists but for the unity and the confidence of Belgian people. I won't certainly act the douche towards people that are till under shock.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

Message from Côte d'ivoire to the terrorists. 

[YOUTUBE]FCFrdgJ0fGk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## eHav (Mar 23, 2016)

Le M�le Absolu said:


> These demonstration are necessary.  Not to fight the terrorists but for the unity and the confidence of Belgian people. I won't certainly act the douche towards people that are till under shock.



they should unite against terrorism. they should demand better safety for citizens. "condemning" terrorist attacks does absolutely nothing. 

katie hopkins said it well 

"Go on. Draw a cartoon to the survivors, come up with a hashtag, lay flowers in a square. Just like you did last time. And will do the next." 

i hate that nothing gets done, and things are allowed to happen again, and i dont even live in a place at risk..


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 23, 2016)

eHav said:


> i hate that nothing gets done, and things are allowed to happen again, and i dont even live in a place at risk..



K, I'll bite.  What is you're alternative to "nothing" that's not already being done that would improve the situation?


----------



## Amanda (Mar 23, 2016)

While I agree that more needs to be done to increase safety (in Belgium in particular), people also need to deal with their fear, their sadness, their anger. It's not wrong, nor is it useless. 

Trying to tell them to stop is quite pointless though. 


In other news, they consider playing the Euro 2016 for empty stalls if the safety isn't secured. ISIS would surely love that - though if they manage to harm the audience, it will be hard to explain why the call wasn't made.


----------



## Mael (Mar 23, 2016)

Amanda said:


> While I agree that more needs to be done to increase safety (in Belgium in particular), people also need to deal with their fear, their sadness, their anger. It's not wrong, nor is it useless.
> 
> Trying to tell them to stop is quite pointless though.
> 
> ...



Something happens at Euro 2016 then the Muslim community is really going to get a taste of the 1930s...I'm calling it.


----------



## eHav (Mar 23, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> K, I'll bite.  What is you're alternative to "nothing" that's not already being done that would improve the situation?



i already said it in this topic plenty of times but apparently it was offtopic. 

what is needed is to be proactive. to enforce better scrutiny and vigilance in these muslim neighborhoods, since all the attacks so far have had ties to the places. all the raids they do after attacks find weapons, bombs, etc. and yet we need to wait for people to die to be "legally" able to go in there and flush terrorists out. im sure the families of the ones who died are very worried about the butthurt of muslims who cover for terrorists in these areas of france, belgium etc etc. if we give possible terrorists the same freedom as everyone else you will never win. you will never manage to keep people safe


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 23, 2016)

Le M�le Absolu said:


> Message from Côte d'ivoire to the terrorists.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]FCFrdgJ0fGk[/YOUTUBE]


Can you translate?


----------



## Nemesis (Mar 23, 2016)

eHav said:


> i already said it in this topic plenty of times but apparently it was offtopic.
> 
> what is needed is to be proactive. to enforce better scrutiny and vigilance in these muslim neighborhoods, since all the attacks so far have had ties to the places. all the raids they do after attacks find weapons, bombs, etc. and yet we need to wait for people to die to be "legally" able to go in there and flush terrorists out. im sure the families of the ones who died are very worried about the butthurt of muslims who cover for terrorists in these areas of france, belgium etc etc. if we give possible terrorists the same freedom as everyone else you will never win. you will never manage to keep people safe



And if you treat people as second class citizens with tighter restrictions and lack of freedoms because they have the name Mohammed or Achmed or what ever muslim name they might have you're going to cause more trouble than it is worth.


----------



## Krory (Mar 23, 2016)

eHav said:


> i already said it in this topic plenty of times but apparently it was offtopic.
> 
> what is needed is to be proactive. to enforce better scrutiny and vigilance in these muslim neighborhoods, since all the attacks so far have had ties to the places. all the raids they do after attacks find weapons, bombs, etc. and yet we need to wait for people to die to be "legally" able to go in there and flush terrorists out. im sure the families of the ones who died are very worried about the butthurt of muslims who cover for terrorists in these areas of france, belgium etc etc. if we give possible terrorists the same freedom as everyone else you will never win. you will never manage to keep people safe



So basically you want to treat all Muslims as if they're in Gitmo.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

eHav said:


> they should unite against terrorism. they should demand better safety for citizens. "condemning" terrorist attacks does absolutely nothing.
> 
> katie hopkins said it well
> 
> ...



They will but there is a time to necessary for the people to be united first. I remind you that it happened yesterday.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 23, 2016)

eHav said:


> i already said it in this topic plenty of times but apparently it was offtopic.
> 
> what is needed is to be proactive. to enforce better scrutiny and vigilance in these muslim neighborhoods, since all the attacks so far have had ties to the places. all the raids they do after attacks find weapons, bombs, etc. and yet we need to wait for people to die to be "legally" able to go in there and flush terrorists out. im sure the families of the ones who died are very worried about the butthurt of muslims who cover for terrorists in these areas of france, belgium etc etc. if we give possible terrorists the same freedom as everyone else you will never win. you will never manage to keep people safe



Yeah, creating a second-class citizen and making sure people feel persecuted at all times won't possibly play into the hands of the people _recruiting based explicitly on the idea that the "West" hates Muslims because of their faith and treats them with hostility and prejudice._

Your idea results in a net increase in the number of terrorists and terrorist attacks.  Making it explicitly worse than "nothing."

Would you like to try again?


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Mar 23, 2016)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Can you translate?



Too long to translate but this guy is an Ivorian humorist that go viral in the Francophone Web.  He mocks the terrorists in a funny way but also,  from a Belgian point of view,  it's like he sharing his experiences of shock after the attacks in Cote d'ivoire.


----------



## eHav (Mar 23, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Yeah, creating a second-class citizen and making sure people feel persecuted at all times won't possibly play into the hands of the people _recruiting based explicitly on the idea that the "West" hates Muslims because of their faith and treats them with hostility and prejudice._
> 
> Your idea results in a net increase in the number of terrorists and terrorist attacks.  Making it explicitly worse than "nothing."
> 
> Would you like to try again?



so its better to let citizens in your country die because the feelings of muslims in areas known for breeding terrorism will be  hurt when you police and keep an eye on them more than you do on people in areas that do not breed terrorists? ok then. 
anyone who harbors a terroris or has ties to any of them should be permanently expelled from the country.

seriously they let "monitored" knows jihadis go to siria and come back to france and belgium like it was no big deal. i bet they were just sightseeing over there. 

and what about the women who got a detailed list of possible terrorists and did nothing about it? better let our citizens die than be an "islamophobe racist nazi" i guess


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 23, 2016)

eHav said:


> so its better to let citizens in your country die because the feelings of muslims in areas known for breeding terrorism will be  hurt when you police and keep an eye on them more than you do on people in areas that do not breed terrorists? ok then.
> anyone who harbors a terroris or has ties to any of them should be permanently expelled from the country.



That isn't the argument you're making though.

The argument you're making is actually "it's better to have the feeling that you're doing _something_ even if the result is more people dying."

If that's the argument you want to make I won't stop you, but you need to at least be aware of the fact it will result in more deaths.

Want to do tactical strikes against known terrorists?  That can help as long as you're careful about it.  Of course we already do that so it's hardly anything new.

Use intelligence assists to identify terrorist threats before they're able to strike?  Yeah, good plan, we try though it's impossible to be perfect.

Win the hearts and minds of people so they have no motivation to become a terrorist?  Sounds good in theory, nobody's really figured out _how_ yet though.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 23, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> K, I'll bite.  What is you're alternative to "nothing" that's not already being done that would improve the situation?


In Belgium? Quite a bit. Reportedly, their intelligence system was relatively shoddy and didn't communicate well with the police.


----------



## eHav (Mar 23, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> That isn't the argument you're making though.
> 
> The argument you're making is actually "it's better to have the feeling that you're doing _something_ even if the result is more people dying."
> 
> ...



no, thats your opinion. if we come down hard on terrorist how will it enable them to cause more attacks than what they already do?


----------



## Banhammer (Mar 23, 2016)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> In Belgium? Quite a bit. Reportedly, their intelligence system was relatively shoddy and didn't communicate well with the police.



In their defense, nobody violently cared about Belgium until now except the belgians


----------



## dr_shadow (Mar 23, 2016)

Banhammer said:


> In their defense, nobody violently cared about Belgium until now except the belgians



I think the reason they put the EU capital in Brussels is that nobody really dislikes Belgium. Or...has any opinion of them at all. Or...knows that they exist.

They're also a bilingual society on the intersection between the Latin and Germanic language zones, so it made sense in a time when the EU had no Slavic members.


----------



## Banhammer (Mar 23, 2016)

their national symbol is a little boy literally taking the piss


Come on


----------



## Junta1987 (Mar 24, 2016)

can we fucking stop beating around the bush? If we dont start talking about what is wrong with the islamic dogmas then islamist terror will NEVER disappear


----------



## Saishin (Mar 24, 2016)

Erdogan revealed that one of the terrorist was arrested in Turkey then the prisoner was  extradited in Belgium and once there he was freed by the Belgian authorities,now I think the Belgian intelligence was very naive,this attack and the previous signs of an imminent attack were all there,they knew that something big was going to happen,all this have showed the lack of preparation of the Belgium's intelligence/police forces in tracking and catching the suspects and the lack of cooperation among the European intelligences.The lack of information exchange between France and Belgium is another example of the mistakes commited by the services.


----------



## reaperunique (Mar 24, 2016)

Mael said:


> Is there a story behind this?





Le M�le Absolu said:


> What do you expect from Belgium?



It's Maundy Thursday today.

In Dutch this translates to "Witte donderdag" or lit. White Thursday. 
The term refers to the habit of covering crucifix statues and other statues with white cloth. Or in this case raise a white flag to let everyone know it's that Thursday today. In a ceremony the white is replaced with purple. 
Of course it can now also have an extra meaning but given it was raised on a catholic building I'm fairly certain it's for the first reason mentioned.



mr_shadow said:


> I think the reason they put the EU capital in Brussels is that nobody really dislikes Belgium. Or...has any opinion of them at all. Or...knows that they exist.
> 
> They're also a bilingual society on the intersection between the Latin and Germanic language zones, so it made sense in a time when the EU had no Slavic members.



Sigh...

How about Belgium being one of the founders of the EU? Due to it's location at that time it was the perfect place to host the various Committees and such.
:


> A Committee of Experts deemed Brussels to be the one option to have all the necessary features for a European capital: a large, active metropolis, without a congested centre or poor quality of housing; good communications with other member states' capitals, including to major commercial and maritime markets;




I'm not really a nationalist but come on way too much dissing on ma country for things that could happen in other nations and have happened. Shall we talk about 9/11 again?


----------



## dr_shadow (Mar 24, 2016)

reaperunique said:


> Sigh...
> 
> How about Belgium being one of the founders of the EU? Due to it's location at that time it was the perfect place to host the various Committees and such.



Sorry if the humor was a bit crude.

The gist of what I wanted to say is that the Big 5: Germany, France, Britain, Italy and Spain, all have various historical disputes and rivalries with one another, not the least of which being World War 2 - which had JUST ended when the EU was formed.

Therefore none of the Big 5 would probably have accepted the capital being in one of the other four countries. Belgium on the other hand would seem to have stayed relatively neutral in major great power conflicts and therefore hasn't incurred much hard feelings from anyone. Everyone likes Belgium, or at least they don't actively dis-like it.

(Of course only three of the Big 5 were actually founding members of the EU, but the problem is the same: France wouldn't have wanted the capital in Bonn or Rome because Germany and Italy had just emerged from Fascism, while the Germans and Italians probably wouldn't have suffered the exponential growth in French arrogance had Paris become the seat of another "empire")


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 24, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Yeah, creating a second-class citizen and making sure people feel persecuted at all times won't possibly play into the hands of the people _recruiting based explicitly on the idea that the "West" hates Muslims because of their faith and treats them with hostility and prejudice._
> 
> Your idea results in a net increase in the number of terrorists and terrorist attacks.  Making it explicitly worse than "nothing."
> 
> Would you like to try again?


On the other hand, it's not like those potential recruits will see that Belgium does nothing effective against terrorists and think "Oh maybe the west doesn't hate us after all, maybe I shouldn't become a terrorist".

Those potential recruits are likely to be recruited one way or another, since, well, they hardly think rationally to begin with if they are susceptible to such tactics.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 24, 2016)

eHav said:


> no, thats your opinion. if we come down hard on terrorist how will it enable them to cause more attacks than what they already do?



If you come down hard on innocent people because "all Muslims are potential terrorists or terrorist sympathizers" it will create more terrorists, yes.

If you need an example to relate to things that you're probably more aware of look at this.  After 9/11 there was a HUGE recruitment boost in the U.S. military.  Because a lot of young people saw the wound created and wanted to do _something_ to try and counter that.  That is a natural reaction to seeing a threat.

So when you cause injury to innocent Muslims you are helping ISIS recruitment.  When you do random searches of people just because they "look like a terrorist" you are helping ISIS recruitment.  When you assume that a mosque is a terrorist training facility you are helping ISIS recruitment.  When you assume that refugees fleeing ISIS are actually part of ISIS you are helping ISIS recruitment.



Edward Newgate said:


> On the other hand, it's not like those potential recruits will see that Belgium does nothing effective against terrorists and think "Oh maybe the west doesn't hate us after all, maybe I shouldn't become a terrorist".
> 
> Those potential recruits are likely to be recruited one way or another, since, well, they hardly think rationally to begin with if they are susceptible to such tactics.



See above.  And think about it rationally for a moment.  Who is more likely to sign up for ISIS?

Joe-Muslim college student who is looking forward to studying for his engineering degree and is idly thinking about what he's going to do when he graduates.

- OR -

Joe-Muslim who's sister was killed when the U.S. bombed her mosque and who's mother was turned away when she tried to get help from the U.S. from the rapists that have been abusing her?


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 24, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> If you come down hard on innocent people because "all Muslims are potential terrorists or terrorist sympathizers" it will create more terrorists, yes.
> 
> If you need an example to relate to things that you're probably more aware of look at this.  After 9/11 there was a HUGE recruitment boost in the U.S. military.  Because a lot of young people saw the wound created and wanted to do _something_ to try and counter that.  That is a natural reaction to seeing a threat.
> 
> ...


I know who is more likely to become a terrorist, but there's exceptions as well. See the Boston Bomber, Tsarnaev, who enrolled into Dartmouth, had a major in Marine Biology and hoped to become a dentist (for his 72 virgins I suppose)

Then there're also quite a few terrorists from past months here in Israel who studied in Israeli universities, or worked at the electricity company, who went on a stabbing spree. Far from being refugees with a shitty life living in shitty condition.

Plus, I never talked about doing any harm to Muslims, or random searches. However Belgium had a long list of suspected Jihadists, with these guys' names on said list, they had warning from Turkey and they did nothing.

So yeah, coming at specific people's homes and monitoring them is seems like a good enough action for me even at the cost of hurting Muslim feelings.


----------



## Mael (Mar 24, 2016)

> Who is more likely to sign up for ISIS?



You'd be surprised...all walks of life are joining.

You can't completely fix stupid.  You have to monitor.  Being easy for the sake of feels gets people killed.  Harder decisions have been made in history for the better.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 24, 2016)

^ Mael is right, there are all kinds of people joining terrorists, even educated and well-off types. 


Apparently they originally intended to strike in a Belgian nuclear plant, but than plan was changed when the security measures went up earlier. Now they have arrested 11 nuclear plant workers for suspected Jihadist connections. (Sorry, heard it on radio and can't find English source.)


----------



## Mael (Mar 24, 2016)

Amanda said:


> ^ Mael is right, there are all kinds of people joining terrorists, even educated and well-off types.
> 
> 
> Apparently they originally intended to strike in a Belgian nuclear plant, but than plan was changed when the security measures went up earlier. *Now they have arrested 11 nuclear plant workers for suspected Jihadist connections.* (Sorry, heard it on radio and can't find English source.)



Is Belgium just naive or incompetent?


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 24, 2016)

Yes, there are exceptions and outliers.

But that wasn't my question or my point.  The question is where is most of the support coming from.  And that is explicitly preying on the feeling of "the rest of the world is against us."

When "the rest of the world" takes actions that they can portray as anti-Muslim be assured they will.  Which in general increases the number of new recruits.

Which is why in this case surgical strikes are better than strikes that cause collateral damage.  I make the same argument that allowing refugees into the country and treating them well does more to further anti-terrorism efforts than the damage done by the security risk.  But I think long-term.


----------



## Mael (Mar 24, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Yes, there are exceptions and outliers.
> 
> But that wasn't my question or my point.  The question is where is most of the support coming from.  And that is explicitly preying on the feeling of "the rest of the world is against us."
> 
> ...



You're not the only one thinking long-term.

You should only adopt all of them when you have all the logistics necessary along with giving them something to do.  The EU, already with high unemployment rates, doesn't have that completely lined up for them.

We're dealing with a people who places religion first more than anything else.  It's very hard, unless you have effective assimilation like the US or Canada, to get them to go with the program and convince themselves to put the nation first over the existential.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 24, 2016)

Mael said:


> You're not the only one thinking long-term.
> 
> You should only adopt all of them when you have all the logistics necessary along with giving them something to do.  The EU, already with high unemployment rates, doesn't have that completely lined up for them.



That actually is a fair and reasonable position on the subject.


----------



## eHav (Mar 24, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> That actually is a fair and reasonable position on the subject.



the problem is you see all we can currently do to prevent more attacks as bad, and all the things you think are good are basicaly utopias right now. and people will continue dieing over it. if it was your brother/sister, dad or whatver that died in the attacks would you be asking for more "integration" in the long run, or for something to be done now when this is afecting you directly?

also, im not saying your ideas are wrong, they just wont change a single thing in the present. its a never ending cicle of "attack", "holding hands singing, praying for victims, condemning" repeat. doesnt change anything and more people will suffer in the future while nothing is done

muslim communities in belgium france and i guess even in the uk, the ones who are prety closed to outsiders will never be "integrated" in the community. they made their own, ith their own rules, and we all know what happens there.

How do you stop those areas from being radical breeding grounds?


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 24, 2016)

eHav said:


> the problem is you see all we can currently do to prevent more attacks as bad, and all the things you think are good are basicaly utopias right now. and people will continue dieing over it. if it was your brother/sister, dad or whatver that died in the attacks would you be asking for more "integration" in the long run, or for something to be done now when this is afecting you directly?



Man, you absolutely _killed_ that strawman.

Problem is none of what you said is things that I actually said.  What I actually said is that taking actions that make life worse for innocent Muslim people actively aids ISIS in their recruitment.  Which in turn increases the number of terrorists in the world and the number of terrorist acts they can perform.

This is not the same as saying "all we can currently do to prevent more attacks [is] bad" just that what you suggest is bad and you should feel bad for bringing it up.  I also think that the situation is very far from "basicaly[sic] utopias right now."

Here's the thing.  If you take a deep look at the issue it ultimately boils down to are you looking for a _solution_ to it or for _vengeance_?

If you're looking for a solution you have to look long term.  This will not be fixed in the next month, or the next year, or probably the next ten years any more than it was fixed in the last month, year, or decade.

A long term solution involves targeted attacks against terrorists while at the same time reaching out to the non-terrorists in order to build lasting relationships with them.  There are a million different points of debate as to how to do this and to what level of risk to accept while going about it, but ultimately the only feasible long term solutions are this.

If you are looking for vengeance you must acknowledge and accept that you are going to make the problem worse.  And ultimately you might as well make the argument for complete and total genocide of approximately 1.6 billion people on account of their religion.  Because that is the direction you are headed.

Is this an extreme contrast?  Yes.  Obviously most of our politicians accept middle grounds, not even the most extreme anti-Islam candidates call for genocide.  But ultimately you're headed towards one goal or the other, so pick the one that sounds right.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 24, 2016)

eHav said:


> muslim communities in belgium france and i guess even in the uk, the ones who are prety closed to outsiders will never be "integrated" in the community. they made their own, ith their own rules, and we all know what happens there.
> 
> How do you stop those areas from being radical breeding grounds?



Personally?

I wouldn't put all refugees into one big area, I'd spread them out more.

I made the comment some time ago that if every church in the U.S. (320,000) sponsored 1 Muslim family (call it 4 people on average?) that would be over a million refugees helped (1,280,000 using my rough estimates).  Spread out over the entire country.

Over a million people helped (which one could argue churches should support), a chance to evangelize to over a million possible converts (if you're into that), and most importantly a chance for a million people to send messages back to their families abroad that say "hey I'm doing okay here, a nice family is helping me out.  Turns out the U.S. isn't as bad as we thought!"

_That_ would do more in countering the message of "it's the rest of the world against us" than anything else we could do.  It would also help get them accumulated to the U.S. culture rather than shuttering them away with "their type."  And while having pockets of their own culture to draw upon can have advantages too I think in this case things are better if they don't.

That is what I would suggest.  Sadly that would take dedication of the people to back the idea, which is far harder to get.

(Replace "U.S." with country of your choice and I believe the results will be similar, even if the numbers are different)


----------



## eHav (Mar 24, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Man, you absolutely _killed_ that strawman.
> 
> Problem is none of what you said is things that I actually said.  What I actually said is that taking actions that make life worse for innocent Muslim people actively aids ISIS in their recruitment.  Which in turn increases the number of terrorists in the world and the number of terrorist acts they can perform.
> 
> ...



so for the next decade we put up with terrorist attacks and do nothing about it? because their feelings will be hurt if we act instead of "condemn"? your solution does nothing right now, and isnt really a solution tbh. They will have to adapt because the general population will not put up with these attacks much longer. Saying "it will eventualy fix itself in 10 years" means nothing.

Also im not calling for anything remotely related to genocides. All i said is that they have to be closely monitored in those neighbourhoods, and the police has to act when they have intel of possible terrorists instead of waiting around until they blow people up to do something about it.


----------



## eHav (Mar 24, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Personally?
> 
> I wouldn't put all refugees into one big area, I'd spread them out more.
> 
> ...



that works for the incoming wave of refugees, but not for the current communities already well established in europe. shit, a guy got arrested in he UK for a tweet he made about asking a muslim woman what was the deal with brussels, and yet we have radicals in belgium calling for sharia law and saying they will controll europe but thats all fine and dandy. these double standards help no one.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 24, 2016)

eHav said:


> so for the next decade we put up with terrorist attacks and do nothing about it?


Strawman.  "Targeted attacks against terrorists while at the same time reaching out to the non-terrorists in order to build lasting relationships with them" is not "nothing."

It's what we're doing now, to varying degrees of success.  It isn't perfect but here's a shock for you there isn't a perfect answer here.  The question is _what would you do that would work better?_

If your goal is to reduce the amount of terrorist attacks what you are suggesting will make it worse.



eHav said:


> your solution does nothing right now, and isnt really a solution tbh. They will have to adapt because the general population will not put up with these attacks much longer. Saying "it will eventualy fix itself in 10 years" means nothing.


Strawman.  "Targeted attacks against terrorists while at the same time reaching out to the non-terrorists in order to build lasting relationships with them" is not "it will eventually fix itself in 10 years."  It is a long term strategy aimed at reducing the effectiveness of ISIS and similar organizations.

An emotional response based on rage that primarily affects people who _aren't_ part of the problem is the exact sort of thing we're trying to prevent.  And the reason that military action isn't determined by popular vote.



eHav said:


> Also im not calling for anything remotely related to genocides. All i said is that they have to be closely monitored in those neighbourhoods, and the police has to act when they have intel of possible terrorists instead of waiting around until they blow people up to do something about it.



If you're calling for raids of Muslim neighborhoods because "those types" live there you're part of the problem.  Unless you're suggesting that right now the police _aren't_ acting when they hear about a terrorist threat.

And the natural extension of your solution is genocide so you might as well own it.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 24, 2016)

eHav said:


> that works for the incoming wave of refugees, but not for the current communities already well established in europe.


True, for already established communities I can't give any specific recommendations as I imagine the specific actions needed would vary based on the individual communities where they are established.

In general I would advise the cities where they are located to reach out to them, and to encourage the citizens to reach out to them, to make the communities feel like accepted parts of the communities.

If people feel like they are really part of the city/state/nation they are in, then they will be less tempted by any attempts to recruit them to take action hostile to the city/state/nation.  They will also be more likely to report anyone attempting to encourage such actions.

As a related note, if they are used to mingling of other cultures in their midst it's that much easier for intelligence assists to work and try and identify any radical elements that might have slipped in.



eHav said:


> shit, a guy got arrested in he UK for a tweet he made about asking a muslim woman what was the deal with brussels, and yet we have radicals in belgium calling for sharia law and saying they will controll europe but thats all fine and dandy. these double standards help no one.



I don't know the specifics of this man in the UK (nor do I explicitly condone the laws of the UK in general compared to the US's concept of freedom of speech) but I will agree with you that double standards help no one.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 24, 2016)

reaperunique said:


> I'm not really a nationalist but come on way too much dissing on ma country for things that could happen in other nations and have happened. Shall we talk about 9/11 again?



I'm not dissing on your country, I'm just saying that its intelligence agencies are weak compared to other countries, putting them at a higher risk of terrorism; and it is entirely possible for them to lower that risk by reforming these intelligence agencies and giving them more resources. But that doesn't mean that they have to, only if they see counter-terrorism efforts as higher priority. Perhaps those resources might be better funnelled into reducing air pollution or whatever, the government only has a limited amount of resources to work with.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 24, 2016)

I've understood Belgium's problem is (also) that the authorities within the country aren't communicating and co-operating well enough. French and Dutch speakers are divided, regions are divided, and different levels of local vs central government don't work together. 

Something like Molenbeek should have been taken into special care long ago, but the central government respects (took much) its local governance. 

Perhaps the Belgians here can comment...


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 24, 2016)

eHav said:


> t
> muslim communities in belgium france and i guess even in the uk, the ones who are prety closed to outsiders will never be "integrated" in the community. they made their own, ith their own rules, and we all know what happens there.
> 
> How do you stop those areas from being radical breeding grounds?



I already told you part of the problem that goes back 3 generations. Its not like mulsilms came to European countries and said "let's not integrate!" Or used a Winston Churchill analogy "never ever ever integrate. give up"

Every time there is an attack people are forcing these communities to state their nationality and disapprove the attacks. It is as if CNN asked an American after another mass shooting to 1. Publicly denounce the attack and 2. State that you are an American, because from your looks its not clear where you stand on 1 and 2. 

Tell me you would feel integrated.


----------



## Amanda (Mar 24, 2016)

Well, yes, there are individuals which don't want to integrate - and which rather want to see Europe turn to Islam. And then there are those who do want to integrate; such as those Somalis who, once they return to Somalia, are disapproved by the locals. 

We musn't generalize into any direction. One way and you do injustice to peaceful Europeans. The other way and you miss a crucial piece in the whole picture of the problem.


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 24, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Strawman.  "Targeted attacks against terrorists while at the same time reaching out to the non-terrorists in order to build lasting relationships with them" is not "it will eventually fix itself in 10 years."  It is a long term strategy aimed at reducing the effectiveness of ISIS and similar organizations.
> 
> An emotional response based on rage that primarily affects people who _aren't_ part of the problem is the exact sort of thing we're trying to prevent.  And the reason that military action isn't determined by popular vote.
> 
> ...


First you say that the solution is "Targeted attacks against terrorists while at the same time reaching out to the non-terrorists in order to build lasting relationships with them" but then you say that you can't give any specific recommendations for existing Muslim communities?
Obviously we can't do any targeted attacks against terrorists inside of Europeans cities, unless you mean raiding their neighborhoods which you're against of (which doesn't even necessarily mean to raid some random people's homes, but specific suspects after monitoring them)


----------



## Elicit94 (Mar 24, 2016)

[youtube]2w6siYk_Ge0[/youtube]
Envisioned Version:
[youtube]vBbRJoHTJAM[/youtube]


----------



## eHav (Mar 24, 2016)

Alwaysmind said:


> I already told you part of the problem that goes back 3 generations. Its not like mulsilms came to European countries and said "let's not integrate!" Or used a Winston Churchill analogy "never ever ever integrate. give up"
> 
> Every time there is an attack people are forcing these communities to state their nationality and disapprove the attacks. It is as if CNN asked an American after another mass shooting to 1. Publicly denounce the attack and 2. State that you are an American, because from your looks its not clear where you stand on 1 and 2.
> 
> Tell me you would feel integrated.



is doesnt matter where the problem comes from. do we blame who wrote the quran for radical islam? doesnt matter why things are how they are, what matters is dealing with the problem now, and not in 10 years.


----------



## Shinryu (Mar 24, 2016)

Of course its a muslim from Molenbeek, it was suspicious how carefully planned this was.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 25, 2016)

eHav said:


> is doesnt matter where the problem comes from.



Actually yes it does matter where the problem comes from. That is how you fix problems, you find the source and fix it.



eHav said:


> do we blame who wrote the quran for radical islam?


No of course we don't. Just like we do not blame Arthur Conan Doyle for the reason there is drug addiction in the world.



eHav said:


> doesnt matter why things are how they are, what matters is dealing with the problem now, and not in 10 years.



Historical perspective is important, not because we don't want history to repeat itself (because that is none sense all by itself) but because it allows us to understand the present. And if you know the past and understand the present you at least know where to look. How can you tackle a problem with a 10 tear solution of you do not even understand it?  

It would be as if I said I don't know why my dishwasher is broken. Worked well 2 days ago and now its broken. Was it because i put Styrofoam in it or was it mechanical, doesn't matter what could have caused it to break, let's just start pulling stuff apart.


----------



## reaperunique (Mar 25, 2016)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> I'm not dissing on your country, I'm just saying that its intelligence agencies are weak compared to other countries, putting them at a higher risk of terrorism; and it is entirely possible for them to lower that risk by reforming these intelligence agencies and giving them more resources. But that doesn't mean that they have to, only if they see counter-terrorism efforts as higher priority. Perhaps those resources might be better funnelled into reducing air pollution or whatever, the government only has a limited amount of resources to work with.



Well, I wouldn't say so much weak but rather the below, due to the political structure in Belgium barely anything that can be called a major reform takes place.

Basically the below:


Amanda said:


> *I've understood Belgium's problem is (also) that the authorities within the country aren't communicating and co-operating well enough.* French and Dutch speakers are divided, regions are divided, and different levels of local vs central government don't work together.
> 
> Something like Molenbeek should have been taken into special care long ago, but the central government respects (took much) its local governance.
> 
> Perhaps the Belgians here can comment...



Unfortunately, that is correct.

No matter who we vote for, in the end all of them, from the nationalist party the N-VA to the socialist sp.a on the Flemish side or the socialist PS in the Walloon, the moment they are in office, they play one big game and whenever something happens they pass the hot potato to their predecessor who of course is from the opposition.
The only major reforms that happened in the past were all after major incidents that put Belgium in a negative spot light (Dutroux being the most well known I guess).

One of the biggest news items right now (after the actual bombings and the aftermath of course) are the blunders made in regards to one of the suicide bombers Ibrahim El Bakraoui.

The central department 'Terro' of the federal police was very slow with passing down the info it received in regards to the arrest and extradition of Ibrahim El Bakraoui.
On the 29th of June 2015(!) the 'Terro' department received info about his arrest in Gaziantep, a well known crossing for terrorists. However, the department barely responded to this info and only on the 9th of December(!) did they pass this info down to the other agencies.

This however, are only the recent events regarding this person. He's known to the Belgian agencies for several years and even served prison time.

A small time line:


*30th Jan. 2010*: Gunned robbery on exchange office in Brussels.
*30 Sept. 2010*: Sentenced to 10 years in prison for the robbery.
*Oct. 2014*: After only 4 years (of the ten), he is released on probation.
*15 June 2015*: Arrested in Turkey, also never attended his meetings with his probation officer.
*July 2015*: Travels back the Netherlands AND BOTH the DUTCH and BELGIAN authorities are informed of his arrival.
*Aug. 2015*: Only now does the Belgian justice department retract his release, a whole month AFTER his arrival in The Netherlands.
*Aug. 2015*: He travels BACK to Turkey!
*22 March 2016*: He and two others take a cab with very heavy bags to the airport. You know the rest.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 25, 2016)

Edward Newgate said:


> First you say that the solution is "Targeted attacks against terrorists while at the same time reaching out to the non-terrorists in order to build lasting relationships with them" but then you say that you can't give any specific recommendations for existing Muslim communities?
> Obviously we can't do any targeted attacks against terrorists inside of Europeans cities, unless you mean raiding their neighborhoods which you're against of (which doesn't even necessarily mean to raid some random people's homes, but specific suspects after monitoring them)



I'm saying the solution for what is right for Muslim communities already existing in cities now will vary from city to city based on the specific circumstances and cultures prevalent there.  What is right for a Muslim community in Paris may not be right for one in Berlin.

In general I would suggest reaching out to the communities to make sure that the communities are treated like they are part of the city/state/nation in which they reside.  If the people living there feel like an accepted part of the community then they will be harder to recruit as terrorist agents and more likely to report someone attempting to recruit them.

As for dealing with existing terrorist threats in those communities you're dependent on the police and intelligence agencies to try and detect the problems before they come to light.  Which I expect they will do in the same manner that they attempt to detect criminals within non-Muslim communities.

I have no problem with the police arresting someone that is planning a terrorist act within a country.  I have no problem with monitoring of suspects that have passed a sufficient burden to suggest they warrant monitoring (which should be the same burden anyone else is subject to).

When I say targeted attacks I am more talking about the leadership and training facilities (in Syria among other places).  Though even these should take care not to cause undue damage to the innocent populations as that ends up being counterproductive (accidents happen so at times it is a judgement call, but the plan shouldn't be to cause civilian deaths).


----------



## eHav (Mar 25, 2016)

would you look at that, authorities finally do a few raids on monitored "moderates" and find all kinds of shit prepared for another attack. tell me again why raids are bad and why we need people to die before doing any raids? 

but keep spewing your moralist bulshit, integration and  severe condemnation will get things done


----------



## Mael (Mar 25, 2016)

eHav said:


> would you look at that, authorities finally do a few raids on monitored "moderates" and find all kinds of shit prepared for another attack. tell me again why raids are bad and why we need people to die before doing any raids?
> 
> but keep spewing your moralist bulshit, integration and  severe condemnation will get things done



Honestly, at this point you could go into many Muslim enclaves of many nations and find treasure troves of these sorts of ideas.  There's some deep-rooted issue going on since many were brought in after WW2.  IIRC they let those brought in keep to themselves for fears of appearing colonialist and the like.

But now's not the time to let twitter hashtags get in the way of thorough investigations.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 25, 2016)

Here's the thing you both seem to misunderstand.

No one objects to using good police and intelligence procedures to identify threats before they become active.  This is great, we all agree that stopping terrorist attacks is a good thing.

The problem comes up when you stop trying to identify specific threats and start playing odds with random raids.  Will random searches find things?  Sure.

But for that matter random searches of (for example) ranchers in the Western U.S. will likely find detailed plans for insurrection along with caches of weapons, ammunition, and improvised explosive devices.

However following that example, if we started randomly searching ranchers out West what do you think that would do to the membership in the local Militia groups?  Up or down?

It's the same thing with Muslim groups, every time you harass an innocent Muslim person you make that person (and their friends and family for that matter) more sympathetic to the anti-West mentality.  Which means that when that "odd" guy comes into the Mosque and starts "joking" about blowing up some people they're more likely to get results.


----------



## eHav (Mar 25, 2016)

when did i mention random raids? quote me on that please

always talked about them having intel on a bunch of possible radicals with ties to ISIS and whatnot and complained that they did nothing with it until an attack happens. thats what i mostly complain about


----------



## Mael (Mar 25, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Here's the thing you both seem to misunderstand.
> 
> No one objects to using good police and intelligence procedures to identify threats before they become active.  This is great, we all agree that stopping terrorist attacks is a good thing.
> 
> ...



Doesn't mean you play pansy when you've got entire neighborhoods in cahoots, buddeh.  And where did either of us talk about random raids?  That's just stupid, but pinpointing enclaves where Islamic extremism or even fundamentalism has been allowed to fester is proper.

This was a grossly negligent display of lettings things be.

This is also a good example as to why so many American governors are not letting Syrian refugees come in.  There's simply no trust and an organized intelligence effort among nations.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 25, 2016)

eHav said:


> when did i mention random raids? quote me on that please
> 
> always talked about them having intel on a bunch of possible radicals with ties to ISIS and whatnot and complained that they did nothing with it until an attack happens. thats what i mostly complain about





eHav said:


> i already said it in this topic plenty of times but apparently it was offtopic.
> 
> what is needed is to be proactive. to enforce better scrutiny and vigilance in *these muslim neighborhoods*, since all the attacks so far have had ties to the places. all the raids they do after attacks find weapons, bombs, etc. and yet we need to wait for people to die to be "legally" able to go in there and flush terrorists out. im sure the families of the ones who died are very *worried about the butthurt of muslims* who cover for terrorists in these areas of france, belgium etc etc.* if we give possible terrorists the same freedom as everyone else you will never win*. you will never manage to keep people safe



Seems to me you equate people living in "these Muslim neighborhoods" with "possible terrorists."

If you're going to treat them all like possible terrorists you're going to make a lot of them into terrorists.

So, to be clear, if there is intelligence (either from the FBI or a nation's equivalent or from Police forces) that point to specific threats by all means act on those threats.  If there are intelligence failings that lead to these attacks that's very bad and Brussels should move to correct that.

But that's not the same as saying "well, they're Muslim, obviously they're up to something."  That's bad, that encourages them to feel like they're separate and persecuted by the nation they're living in, which is exactly the mentality that terrorist recruiters are going after.  Don't help terrorist recruiters, that's a bad thing.

And it's very far from saying "don't do anything until after an attack."

My suggestion is make it so that they feel like they're part of the nation so that they'll object to the idea of attacking it.  This helps stop the recruitment part (both in the nation in question and abroad as likely they will share this opinion with their friends and family in other nations) and will eventually help lead to a logistical death of the organization (especially if special forces keep killing their leaders).


----------



## eHav (Mar 25, 2016)

what i mean is the same shit that happens around here in portugal in black neighbourgoods, where even if the police have a reason to go arrest someone, the entire place comes out to throw shit at police and whine about "racial profiling" and whatnot. and by giving them the same freedom i mean that if we arent 100% sure but still have a very high suspicion of possible terrorist ties they should act. the risks are just too high. its not like "oh he might have stollen from a shop" so we cant just go in and arrest him, but the "might" is he might blow up a trainstation and the law shouldnt have its hands tied down untill they actually blow someone up.



WorkingMoogle said:


> My suggestion is make it so that they feel like they're part of the nation so that they'll object to the idea of attacking it.  This helps stop the recruitment part (both in the nation in question and abroad as likely they will share this opinion with their friends and family in other nations) and will eventually help lead to a logistical death of the organization (especially if special forces keep killing their leaders).



that is highly unlikely in the near future. even the ones being born now are being fed radical bullshit agaisnt the "west", altho to a lesser extent in the west. it is also more probable that it happens in all muslim neightbourhoods, since isolated muslims are more exposed to the western values than the ones in almost closed off comunities. 

like i said before, the way to make things better wont do anything in the years to come, even if you start now, theres a loooooong way to go. and yet terrorism is here now and has to be dealt with.


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 25, 2016)

WorkingMoogle said:


> I'm saying the solution for what is right for Muslim communities already existing in cities now will vary from city to city based on the specific circumstances and cultures prevalent there.  What is right for a Muslim community in Paris may not be right for one in Berlin.
> 
> In general I would suggest reaching out to the communities to make sure that the communities are treated like they are part of the city/state/nation in which they reside.  If the people living there feel like an accepted part of the community then they will be harder to recruit as terrorist agents and more likely to report someone attempting to recruit them.
> 
> ...


What else do you want Belgians to do to help those Muslim communities feel like they are welcome there? Introducing Sharia law to the whole country would do that, Muslims would absolutely love that. Look, they were already treated well enough. Even after the terror attack Muslims feel confident enough to just come to the scene and disrespect Israel by tearing apart the flag with nobody doing anything against that. Some guy got arrested just for confronting a Muslim woman over the subject. A large part of them don't want to integrate.


----------



## WorkingMoogle (Mar 25, 2016)

eHav said:


> what i mean is the same shit that happens around here in portugal in black neighbourgoods, where even if the police have a reason to go arrest someone, the entire place comes out to throw shit at police and whine about "racial profiling" and whatnot. and by giving them the same freedom i mean that if we arent 100% sure but still have a very high suspicion of possible terrorist ties they should act. the risks are just too high. its not like "oh he might have stollen from a shop" so we cant just go in and arrest him, but the "might" is he might blow up a trainstation and the law shouldnt have its hands tied down untill they actually blow someone up.



I agree, if there's a specific reason to go after a criminal (or at least violent criminals) that should be followed up on.  I can't speak to Portugal or Brussels but I assume you have a system similar to the U.S. where the courts can grant a warrant for search or arrest once there's sufficient evidence in place.  This is not what I'm objecting to.

I'm objecting to the notion that "these things seem to keep coming from Muslim neighborhoods, we should send the police in there to turn the place upside down and find the terrorists hiding there!"  Because that is short sighted (and would probably be futile because you can't search a whole neighborhood at once meaning anyone hiding there would just relocate and try again later).



eHav said:


> that is highly unlikely in the near future. even the ones being born now are being fed radical bullshit agaisnt the "west", altho to a lesser extent in the west. it is also more probable that it happens in all muslim neightbourhoods, since isolated muslims are more exposed to the western values than the ones in almost closed off comunities.
> 
> like i said before, the way to make things better wont do anything in the years to come, even if you start now, theres a loooooong way to go. and yet terrorism is here now and has to be dealt with.



Here's the thing.  I agree, it is not something that is going to be solved in the near future.  Period, no matter what approach we take.

But we need to pick a solution.  My suggestion is we pick the path where we try to integrate with them, defeat the notion of "us vs. them" for both us and them, and lead to a peaceful ending to things.  There will be those that resist this (on both sides) which will lead to deaths in many cases.  I hope we can avoid most of those but I acknowledge that innocent people will die because of it.

The alternative solution is a prolonged bloody war that drags more and more innocent people into the fighting.  ISIS will have increased recruiting and increased ease of finding shelter from Muslims currently living in other countries.  Likely this will lead to something akin to the internment camps of WWII which will be used continuously in propaganda videos.  This will continue for decades and somewhere in the millions to hundreds of millions killed as a result.  But it comes with the warm fuzzy feeling that we're "doing something."

Which do you prefer?  "Wave a magic wand and stop terrorism" is not an option.


----------

