# EMS Madara vs. Itachi



## trance (Jul 24, 2013)

Location: Destroyed Konoha

Intel: None

Mindset: IC

Distance: 40m

Rules: Itachi is alive and healthy. Madara is alive and does not have the Kyūbi, meteors, Mokuton,  and he can only go up to V3 Susanoo.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 24, 2013)

It's still too much. Madara has meteors/tajuu mokuton kage bushin/mokuton flower world. not sure if serious.


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## trance (Jul 24, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> It's still too much. Madara has meteors/tajuu mokuton kage bushin/mokuton flower world. not sure if serious.





EMS Madara is the one Hashirama fought. Maybe I should specify that...


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## Jagger (Jul 24, 2013)

It's still a tough match for Itachi. He hasn't shown enough firepower to crack through a V3 Susano'O (which version is that one again?) and his chakra reserves are still far lower than Madara's.


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## Trojan (Jul 24, 2013)

Madara is still too much for him!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2013)

Itachi'd need to bust out Amaterasu (thus cut away a lot of his stamina) just to counter Madara's base Katons. He has nothing strong enough to break through Madara's Gunbai defense barrier, nor can he bust through Madara's Susano'o even restricted to V3. Genjutsu is useless, even Tsukuyomi is just fodder for Madara to break. 

Madara still curbstomps him. Nothing Itachi has is even on Madara's level.


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## joshhookway (Jul 24, 2013)

Itachi wins with Totsuka.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Itachi wins with Totsuka.


Totsuka can't pierce Susano'o, no feats for it.


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## Ashi (Jul 24, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Itachi wins with Totsuka.





OT: madara still roflstomps


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## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2013)

If we're restricting EMS Madara purely to what he's shown and taking away his Perfect Susano'o, then Itachi actually has a decent shot at winning.

It's basically a slugfest between Madara's incomplete Susano'o and Itachi's complete version, the difference being Itachi has a reasonable chance of penetrating Madara's with Amaterasu- perhaps in conjunction with the Totsuka no Tsurugi; I don't buy the preposterous notion that the weapon of Susano'o specifically designed for offense isn't able to penetrate the generic chakra layers, and we saw what happened when Tsunade whacked Madara's ribcage Susano'o with its own broken-off chakra blade. If anything, I think Amaterasu burning on Susano'o after a while would weaken it enough for multiple blows with the Totsuka to break through. Once that happens, it's game over for Madara.

Alternatively, Itachi could try snaring Madara in Izanami, but that might be too big a risk, since it apparently disables his ability to use Susano'o while he's activating it. And he kinda needs that to avoid getting roasted with Katon Ninjutsu or Hulksmashed/Magatama-spammed by Susano'o.

It's probably worth mentioning that Itachi can use Suiton to get water under Madara's feet and at least distract or disrupt him with Suigadan if he can't manage an injury with it (let's face it, it's unlikely such a Jutsu would do anything meaningful against someone of Madara's level; but it could be useful if employed at the right moment).

Itachi also has clone feints... Madara should know better than anyone not to underestimate those. 

I'll say this: If Itachi tries to take Madara on Susano'o vs. Susano'o and doesn't try anything creative, he will lose by attrition. However, I believe Itachi has the necessary versatility and offensive power to breach this level of Susano'o _eventually_, and with his wits, I think he'd definitely find a way to pull it off if he really could.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Totsuka can't pierce Susano'o, no feats for it.



Absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence...

And the Totsuka no Tsurugi cut through Sage-powered Shikkotsumyaku, so, what you said is actually debateable.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence...
> 
> And the Totsuka no Tsurugi cut through Sage-powered Shikkotsumyaku, so, what you said is actually debateable.


That was Itachi's Susano'o Sword, NOT Totsuka no Tsurugi. 

If the evidence isn't there, you can't claim it. And damn, you actually think Itachi has a shot against someone with FAR greater stamina, far stronger than him in base, better taijutsu than him, has weapons and counters for everything Itachi has?

Oh Itachi has bushins? So what, Madara dealt with Hashirama's stronger versions. And Itachi's more versatile? Strange how he has had linear ways of battle through the entire manga compared to Madara.


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## Rocky (Jul 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence...



In actuality, having no evidence allows the opposition to pretty much claim absence. 

For example, if a girl reports and files charges against a man for rape without evidence, it won't even go to trial. Defense lawyers would move to dismiss the charges at arraignment. If the prosecution were to say "but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence!!", a judge would laugh in their face and dismiss it anyway, even if the man actually was a rapist.

Without eveidence, there really is no point to claiming something unless you're just an "anything's possible" kinda guy, or you're just playing devil's advocate. 



> And the Totsuka no Tsurugi cut through Sage-powered Shikkotsumyaku, so, what you said is actually debateable.



Do tell, in what way is that Kimimaro technique comparable to Susano'o? Do you really hold the impression that they are similar in defensive capabilities?


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## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That was Itachi's Susano'o Sword, NOT Totsuka no Tsurugi.



Maybe I'm crazy, but...

I could've sworn the sword wielded by Itachi's Susano'o was the Totsuka no Tsurugi. 

That's what Zetsu said it was, right?



> If the evidence isn't there, you can't claim it.



The inverse also applies; you can't just claim the Totsuka no Tsurugi won't penetrate Susano'o simply based on lack of feats.



> And damn, you actually think Itachi has a shot against someone with FAR greater stamina, far stronger than him in base, better taijutsu than him, has weapons and counters for everything Itachi has?



I did say Itachi would lose if he tried to fight Madara with just Susano'o.

Also, better Taijutsu? I hope you're joking, but I know you're not; Madara didn't show anything in the way of Taijutsu prowess that Itachi could not believably replicate. They seem to have roughly the same speed and physical strength, and it's impossible to compare their skill on feats alone (besides that, Madara hardly has any). Statistically-speaking, Itachi has a 4.5 in Taijutsu, so Madara would have to be pretty God damned excellent to have any meaningful advantage over him in that area.



> Oh Itachi has bushins? So what, Madara dealt with Hashirama's stronger versions.



It's not really about the strength of the clone so much as it is the switch itself; a kunai in the back is going to kill Madara whether it's Hashirama's clone driving it in or Itachi's.



> And Itachi's more versatile? Strange how he has had linear ways of battle through the entire manga compared to Madara.



All Madara has ever done is shoot fireballs and slash away with Susano'o and you are calling Itachi's approach "linear"? All Madara ever does is solve things with more brute force. 

Half the techniques we've seen from him haven't even been his, and Itachi's known arsenal is still twice as big.


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## ueharakk (Jul 24, 2013)

How big can he make his V3 susanoo?  Because if he uses a meteor-sized V3 susanoo, itachi's got no chance.

Well, itachi still doesn't have much of a chance seeing that madara can hold his susanoo indefinitely while Itachi's body, stamina and eyes get wrecked from holding it for a while.

Depends on how well Totsuka does against a V3 susanoo.  Is it strong enough to pierce through, can it seal the susanoo itself?  If itachi can do either then he has a decent shot if he starts with full knowledge.  With no intel however, I see him wasting his stamina on weaker susanoo forms and MS jutsu before trying to beat madara with the lvl4, which makes his chances go down.



Nikushimi said:


> *Absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence...*
> 
> And the Totsuka no Tsurugi cut through Sage-powered Shikkotsumyaku, so, what you said is actually debateable.


To the bolded, in actuality absence of evidence can be evidence of absence if we should expect to see evidence given the proposition is true.

However, i agree that totsuka does fall into the category of absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence since it hasn't gone up against anything that it had trouble destroying.  But that's only in the realm of feats, we can still use things like hype or portrayal if feats are lacking.  You also have met your burden of proof by backing up your assertion on totsuka's penetrating power by bringing up its performance against sage enhanced bone forest, however I don't think that itachi used totsuka in that instance, I think it was a standard susanoo blade considering he has only shown to be able to use the spiritual weapons when his V4 is out and he only had a skeletal.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> In actuality, having no evidence allows the opposition to pretty much claim absence.
> 
> For example, if a girl reports and files charges against a man for rape without evidence, it won't even go to trial. Defense lawyers would move to dismiss the charges at arraignment. If the prosecution were to say "but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence!!", a judge would laugh in their face and dismiss it anyway, even if the man actually was a rapist.
> 
> Without eveidence, there really is no point to claiming something unless you're just an "anything's possible" kinda guy, or you're just playing devil's advocate.



Except the justice system doesn't work based on proving innocence... If you can't prove guilt, innocence is *assumed*. A person can be guilty of the crime and still be aquitted due to lack of evidence, which doesn't absolve them or disprove their involvement in the crime in any way, shape, or form.



> Do tell, in what way is that Kimimaro technique comparable to Susano'o? Do you really hold the impression that they are similar in defensive capabilities?



It's not just Kimimaro's technique, though; it's powered by Senjutsu, which we know augments the power of Ninjutsu dramatically with natural energy. Shikkotsumyaku is already as hard as steel to begin with.


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## Ashi (Jul 24, 2013)

Of course nikushimi's version of itachi wins without using the mangekyou sharingan


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## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Of course nikushimi's version of itachi wins without using the mangekyou sharingan



I didn't even say that anywhere.


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## Ashi (Jul 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I didn't even say that anywhere.



Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence


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## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> To the bolded, in actuality absence of evidence can be evidence of absence if we should expect to see evidence given the proposition is true.



Actually there's a fundamental logical distinction between the absence of evidence and evidence of absence that can't be reconciled under any circumstances. 



> However, i agree that totsuka does fall into the category of absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence since it hasn't gone up against anything that it had trouble destroying.  But that's only in the realm of feats, we can still use things like hype or portrayal if feats are lacking.  You also have met your burden of proof by backing up your assertion on totsuka's penetrating power by bringing up its performance against sage enhanced bone forest, however I don't think that itachi used totsuka in that instance, I think it was a standard susanoo blade considering he has only shown to be able to use the spiritual weapons when his V4 is out and he only had a skeletal.



1. Where are people getting this idea that Itachi uses two different Susano'o blades?

2. Assuming this is true, how can you tell which one he used? Itachi's Susano'o swords all look like giant, elongated globs of fiery energy to me; I can't see any difference.


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## Ashi (Jul 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Fuck.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4dRRmSL8Ns[/YOUTUBE]


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## Ashi (Jul 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Actually there's a fundamental logical distinction between the absence of evidence and evidence of absence that can't be reconciled under any circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi's totsuka comes out of a gourd Nd he only has it in final susanoo


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## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Itachi's totsuka comes out of a gourd Nd he only has it in final susanoo



Nobody else but me thought of partial manifestation as the explanation for that?


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## Rocky (Jul 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Except the justice system doesn't work based on proving innocence... If you can't prove guilt, innocence is *assumed*. A person can be guilty of the crime and still be aquitted due to lack of evidence, which doesn't absovle them or disprove their involvement in the crime in any way, shape, or form.



I know all of this. I don't see your point. Our justice system is built that way for a reason. 

If a murderer can walk free simply because we don't have full-proof evidence, then where does the "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" argument really hold any ground? It's only used in an attempt to cling to an unsupported point.

If you're going to make a claim, you need to support it man. You can't just hide behind that clause, because technically it allows someone to claim anything. It has never and never will hold any merit in an actual debate because it focuses on the unknown.

The burden of proof is on you here, and SSJ Guy is actually right, there isn't any.




> It's not just Kimimaro's technique, though; it's powered by Senjutsu, which we know augments the power of Ninjutsu dramatically with natural energy. Shikkotsumyaku is already as hard as steel to begin with.



That's....great. I know what Sage Mode can do to Ninjutsu, however Kabuto's Bone technique has absolutely no defensive feats that put it close to Susano'o.

 Nukite hasn't shown a cap either, correct? So would you be okay with me making the claim that Sandiame Raikage could run through Susano'o and slaughter Uchiha?


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## Rocky (Jul 24, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence



Actually this guy soloed. ^


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## ueharakk (Jul 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Actually there's a fundamental logical distinction between the absence of evidence and evidence of absence that can't be reconciled under any circumstances.


Except I just listed the circumstance: which is when given the proposition is true, we should expect certain evidences to be present.

Edit: actually, you are right.  The evidence I'm claiming is 'evidence of absence' would fall under 'positive evidence against' the proposition.




Nikushimi said:


> 1. Where are people getting this idea that Itachi uses two different Susano'o blades?


From the fact that sasuke and madara's susanoo are capable of generic susanoo blades just like Itachi and Madara's susanoo are capable of generic magatamas...



Nikushimi said:


> 2. Assuming this is true, how can you tell which one he used? Itachi's Susano'o swords all look like giant, elongated globs of fiery energy to me; I can't see any difference.


um... if you assume what I just typed is true, then it logically follows that he couldn't have used totsuka since he didn't manifest the V4 susanoo which he must do in order to gain access to his spirit weapons.  And thus if he couldn't have used totsuka, then a standard susanoo sword is the only thing that we've seen that would fit the evidence of that scene.


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## Ashi (Jul 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I know all of this. I don't see your point. Our justice system is built that way for a reason.
> 
> If a murderer can walk free simply because we don't have full-proof evidence, then where does the "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" argument really hold any ground? It's only used in an attempt to cling to an unsupported point.
> 
> ...



Well


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## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I know all of this. I don't see your point. Our justice system is built that way for a reason.



Yes, arbitrarily, because it's more socially acceptable to let perpetrators go when the evidence is lacking than to unjustly imprison or execute an innocent person, which is also an arbitrary preference.



> If a murderer can walk free simply because we don't have full-proof evidence, then where does the "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" argument really hold any ground? It's only used in an attempt to cling to an unsupported point.



No, it's actually used for the very simple reason that it's logically correct. 

The sad truth you don't seem to realize is that the justice system (or at least the popular concept of it) is sometimes arbitrary and illogical.



> If you're going to make a claim, you need to support it man. You can't just hide behind that clause, because technically it allows someone to claim anything. It has never and never will hold any merit in an actual debate because it focuses on the unknown.



I didn't make a claim. I shot down SSM12 for making a claim based on the absence of evidence. 

So many people needlessly make this mistake so frequently...



> The burden of proof is on you here, and SSJ Guy is actually right, there isn't any.



Burden of proof isn't on me because I didn't assert anything except that SSM12 was wrongly conflating the absence of evidence with evidence of absence, which is demonstrably what happened. 



> That's....great. I know what Sage Mode can do to Ninjutsu, however Kabuto's Bone technique has absolutely no defensive feats that put it close to Susano'o.



Take a steel-hard Ninjutsu and augment it with natural energy; I wouldn't say that so confidently if I were you. Again, the absence of evidence works both ways.



> Nukite hasn't shown a cap either, correct? So would you be okay with me making the claim that Sandiame Raikage could run through Susano'o and slaughter Uchiha?



I'm pretty sure Nukite would go through Susano'o myself.

I just don't think it's clear how easily it would do so.

And then you get into the whole "Yata Mirror nullifies elements" crap... Unlike Kirin, Nukite is chakra-based, which means it has a weakness against Futon.


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## Jagger (Jul 24, 2013)

Come on, it's not that hard to think Itachi can use generic Susano'O blades like Sasuke or Madara. Just like he was able to create his own version of Magatama, the same goes to Madara.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Maybe I'm crazy, but...
> 
> I could've sworn the sword wielded by Itachi's Susano'o was the Totsuka no Tsurugi.
> 
> That's what Zetsu said it was, right?


Itachi's Susano'o has its own sword that isn't Totsuka: prior

All Susano'o's possess a sword in different forms, Madara's kris blades (Katana in Perfect Susano'o), Sasuke's kodachi-like blade, Itachi's dagger-like blade. Totsuka only manifests for Itachi when he wants it.


> The inverse also applies; you can't just claim the Totsuka no Tsurugi won't penetrate Susano'o simply based on lack of feats.


Totsuka has practically no feats. Claiming it can do it without evidence means it can't do it, you're basically using your favoritism for Itachi to say that it can in that instance. 




> I did say Itachi would lose if he tried to fight Madara with just Susano'o.


Considering Madara can manifest and use Susano'o far more freely than Itachi, it means it won't be just that. Madara will be tanking everything Itachi can throw at him in that case and just steamrolling through. Itachi'd need Susano'o just to SURVIVE. 


> Also, better Taijutsu? I hope you're joking, but I know you're not; Madara didn't show anything in the way of Taijutsu prowess that Itachi could not believably replicate. They seem to have roughly the same speed and physical strength, and it's impossible to compare their skill on feats alone (besides that, Madara hardly has any). Statistically-speaking, Itachi has a 4.5 in Taijutsu, so Madara would have to be pretty God damned excellent to have any meaningful advantage over him in that area.


Madara incapacitated a taijutsu specialist like Gai, reacted to Tsunade appearing on the battlefield, blocked a punch from A, and tore through the Fourth Division with just taijutsu for the start. He's way better than Itachi in that stat. 




> It's not really about the strength of the clone so much as it is the switch itself; a kunai in the back is going to kill Madara whether it's Hashirama's clone driving it in or Itachi's.


And Itachi isn't likely to even DO that given Madara can just camp in his Susano'o, let Itachi exhaust himself, and tear him a new one.




> All Madara has ever done is shoot fireballs and slash away with Susano'o and you are calling Itachi's approach "linear"? All Madara ever does is solve things with more brute force.


Madara's shown high level Katons, genjutsu (both normal and a EMS version), Susano'o mastery, and a high level of taijutsu. Itachi's normal approaches _are completely useless against him._ Itachi goes for his normal genjutsu usage: Madara shatters it with his EMS, including Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Itachi tries Izanami: Madara breaks it since he isn't trying to do or be anyone but himself. Itachi tries a bushin? Yeah, all the good that'll do: he can't even get through Madara's Susano'o ribcage. Madara then attacks with a Katon that requires the Mizukage or dozens of Suiton users to counter, Itachi has no choice to use Amaterasu. He loses sight of Madara...then is smashed by Madara's Susano'o fist. As he weakly gets up, Madara fries him.

EMS Madara is on another level than Itachi is even without Perfect Susano'o or Kurama at his side.


> Half the techniques we've seen from him haven't even been his, and Itachi's known arsenal is still twice as big.


Everything in Itachi's arsenal is useless against Madara's, so its a moot point.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Except I just listed the circumstance: which is when given the proposition is true, we should expect certain evidences to be present.



Expectation is totally subjective and irrelevant; absence of evidence is never, write that down, NEVER the evidence of absence; they simply aren't equivocal because you're talking about what you don't have to show versus what you've proven doesn't exist. This principle isn't something that suddenly changes or loses its merit when you cross the line into discussing literature.



> From the fact that sasuke and madara's susanoo are capable of generic susanoo blades just like Itachi and Madara's susanoo are capable of generic magatamas...



How does this suggest that Itachi's blade is not the Totsuka no Tsurugi after it has been expressly called that?



> um... if you assume what I just typed is true, then it logically follows that he couldn't have used totsuka since he didn't manifest the V4 susanoo which he must do in order to gain access to his spirit weapons.



That premise is unproven and actually mistaken; Itachi's Susano'o wielded the Yata no Kagami in skeletal form. Or does Itachi have two seperate shields for the Jutsu that also just happen to look identical, as well?



> And thus if he couldn't have used totsuka, then a standard susanoo sword is the only thing that we've seen that would fit the evidence of that scene.



The thing is, nowhere does it say he couldn't have used the Totsuka.

The sword looks like the Totsuka no Tsurugi to me.


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## Ashi (Jul 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Expectation is totally subjective and irrelevant; absence of evidence is never, write that down, NEVER the evidence of absence; they simply aren't equivocal because you're talking about what you don't have to show versus what you've proven doesn't exist. This principle isn't something that suddenly changes or loses its merit when you cross the line into discussing literature.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are u blind? The totsuka blade is a lighter shade of red than the susanoo sword plus it comes of a gourd


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> The nukite could possibly get past susanoo but not madara's PS


Why not


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## Nikushimi (Jul 25, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi's Susano'o has its own sword that isn't Totsuka: prior
> 
> All Susano'o's possess a sword in different forms, Madara's kris blades (Katana in Perfect Susano'o), Sasuke's kodachi-like blade, Itachi's dagger-like blade. Totsuka only manifests for Itachi when he wants it.
> 
> Totsuka has practically no feats.



Let's just pretend that what you're saying actually has some merit to it:

What is stopping Itachi from using that other sword *that looks exactly identical to the Totsuka no Tsurugi but isn't the Totsuka no Tsurugi* instead? One way or the other, his Susano'o is capable of cutting through Sawarabi no Mai. You said the Totsuka can't do it, like that's somehow going to nullify the feat, but it doesn't; it just means Itachi's Susano'o has to jump through an extra hoop of your roundabout logic in order to do it. Same end result, though.



> Claiming it can do it without evidence means it can't do it,



False; absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence.



> you're basically using your favoritism for Itachi to say that it can in that instance.



Isn't that what you're doing? "I don't like Itachi, so he can't do this because he hasn't shown that he can."

I'm not even going by favoritism here; I offered you a feat, you rejected the Totsuka no Tsurugi and said a chakra blade did it, and my response was simply "What the fuck ever; Itachi can use that chakra blade instead."

I accepted your ludicrous premise that Itachi somehow has two swords that look exactly the same and were never identified seperately or distinguished from one another. So don't whine to me about playing favorites; your allegiance isn't exactly a mystery to anybody here.



> Considering Madara can manifest and use Susano'o far more freely than Itachi, it means it won't be just that. Madara will be tanking everything Itachi can throw at him in that case and just steamrolling through. Itachi'd need Susano'o just to SURVIVE.



Yeah, I didn't say otherwise. But Itachi has a few minutes before he kicks the bucket, which gives him a chance to whittle away Madara's Susano'o with Amaterasu and attacks from his own Susano'o.



> Madara incapacitated a taijutsu specialist like Gai,



When did Madara incapacitate Gai with Taijutsu? Gai would mop up the universe with that ho in a pure Taijutsu throwdown. 



> reacted to Tsunade appearing on the battlefield,



...So what?



> blocked a punch from A,



Sasuke, Suigetsu, and Jugo all did this (well, Sasuke dodged).



> and tore through the Fourth Division with just taijutsu for the start.



...So what?



> He's way better than Itachi in that stat.



There's nothing he did that Itachi couldn't replicate. Itachi can beat-up fodder, block a punch from the Raikage when he's not using Shunshin at full power, and probably react to a sucker-punch from Tsunade if she appears right in front of him.

It's one thing to say Madara is better, but "way better"? "Way"? Where's that emphasis coming from? What little Taijutsu skill he's shown isn't even distinguishable from Itachi's.



> And Itachi isn't likely to even DO that given Madara can just camp in his Susano'o, let Itachi exhaust himself, and tear him a new one.



Itachi is likely to do whatever the battle calls for, which includes and is not limited to switching out with clones if/when he gets the chance and if/when he thinks it'll benefit him to do so. It's pretty circumstantial, so I can't say when exactly he would do it, but I can offer that it's a tactic proven effective many times throughout the manga. Madara himself was felled by it; even if it doesn't happen here, the possibility is still there.



> Madara's shown high level Katons, genjutsu (both normal and a EMS version), Susano'o mastery, and a high level of taijutsu.



That's funny, because you pretty much just listed a third of Itachi's arsenal, minus the EMS part. 



> Itachi's normal approaches _are completely useless against him._ Itachi goes for his normal genjutsu usage: Madara shatters it with his EMS, including Itachi's Tsukuyomi.



Yeah, you're not telling me anything here that I don't really know.

Madara is not a normal opponent for Itachi; why you would expect Itachi to take a normal approach is beyond me, especially after he's gotten a taste of what Madara's capable of.



> Itachi tries Izanami: Madara breaks it since he isn't trying to do or be anyone but himself.



...Assuming the Jutsu can be broken like that.

Based on the thematics of Izanami, I don't think your understanding of the Jutsu is accurate; anyone trying to escape the results of their actions will perpetuate the loop. Kabuto's identity crises was just one way this happened.



> Itachi tries a bushin? Yeah, all the good that'll do: he can't even get through Madara's Susano'o ribcage.



After hitting it with Amaterasu and then attacking repeatedly with the sword/Magatama, that's extremely doubtful. Tsunade and A did it with their bare hands.



> Madara then attacks with a Katon that requires the Mizukage or dozens of Suiton users to counter, Itachi has no choice to use Amaterasu. He loses sight of Madara...then is smashed by Madara's Susano'o fist. As he weakly gets up, Madara fries him.



In a universe where Itachi suddenly forgets how to use Susano'o, maybe.

But I thought making people forget their Jutsu was Itachi's power? 



> EMS Madara is on another level than Itachi is even without Perfect Susano'o or Kurama at his side.



Probably, but given these restrictions and what little Jutsu we've seen from him, he isn't equipped to win this more often than not. I do think Madara is still stronger than Itachi like this, but Itachi's advantage here is his versatility.



> Everything in Itachi's arsenal is useless against Madara's, so its a moot point.



Amaterasu and Susano'o aren't useless. Kage Bunshin is the one Jutsu that is almost never useless.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Really?


That I actually agree with. A One-Finger Nukite can pierce a V3 Susano'o in my mind since it pierced the Sandaime Raikage's body which tanked a Kurama powered FRS.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That I actually agree with. A One-Finger Nukite can pierce a V3 Susano'o in my mind since it pierced the Sandaime Raikage's body which tanked a Kurama powered FRS.



You agreeing with Nikushimi only supports my original reaction.


----------



## Ashi (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You agreeing with Nikushimi only supports my original reaction.



Doesn't take much to break susanoo really


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Yes it does.


----------



## Ashi (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes it does.



Tell that to raikage's backhand


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> *Expectation is totally subjective and irrelevant*; absence of evidence is never, write that down, NEVER the evidence of absence; they simply aren't equivocal because you're talking about what you don't have to show versus what you've proven doesn't exist. This principle isn't something that suddenly changes or loses its merit when you cross the line into discussing literature.


expectation isn't subjective (at least how I am using it here). if you claim there's a forest fire 200 meters ahead, then you should expect to see the forest fire, to hear the forest fire, to smell the forest fire, etc.  If there is an absence of all of these evidences that you should expect to experience given the proposition is true, then it's all positive evidence against the proposition.  

But anyways, I conceded the point for the reasons I've given in my edit.




Nikushimi said:


> How does this suggest that Itachi's blade is not the Totsuka no Tsurugi after it has been expressly called that?


Your attacking a strawman.  I'm not saying that EVERY blade itachi's susanoo uses is a standard one and not Totsuka, I'm saying that his susanoo is capable of the same generic, nameless blades that Madara's and Sasuke's are capable of.  Sasuke calls his enton swords "enton susanoo kagutsuchi" but he nor madara give any name to their generic susanoo swords.

If the scan where itachi slashed the bones says "totsuka no tsurugi" in it then sure its got to be totsuka, but I don't remember it being called that in the scan.  



Nikushimi said:


> That premise is unproven and actually mistaken; Itachi's Susano'o wielded the Yata no Kagami in skeletal form. Or does Itachi have two seperate shields for the Jutsu that also just happen to look identical, as well?


He wielded it in that form, but that was only after he manifested it with his V4 susanoo.  Thus the premise that he can only manifest the spiritual items with a lvl4 susanoo still stands.  

You do know that allowing itachi the ability to manifest his spiritual items at a lower level makes it far more likely that he used yaata to survive kirin right?




Nikushimi said:


> The thing is, nowhere does it say he couldn't have used the Totsuka.
> 
> The sword looks like the Totsuka no Tsurugi to me.


Er... you said "assuming that is true" which means that given he can only manifest Totsuka with a V4, blah blah blah.

if you want to rescind that and now defend the point that he can manifest totsuka with skeletal, then it's fine by me, but I'd just like to clear this up now.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Raikage backhand >>>


----------



## Ashi (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Raikage backhand >>>



Raikage's back hand>>>nukite


----------



## Bonly (Jul 25, 2013)

Depends on whether or not Itachi's Sword of Totsuka can get through Madara's Susanoo as well as if Itachi can catch Madara with Ama. If Itachi can do either of the two then he wins, if not then Itachi gets outlasted.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Not really; I don't.
> 
> You should know by now there are a lot of popular consensuses I do not agree with.



Why not? 





> It's only the "best" result because it prioritizes the importance of human life and freedom over the importance of logical accuracy. Which I do agree with.
> 
> That isn't the same as saying it's right



How is it logically inaccurate?

The definition of "right" isn't actually set in stone either, everything is opinion. 




> Strat is the Haku wanker and I'm the Raikage wanker. You got your shit backwards, fool.




Same shit, I could use another example. I can make the claim that Rock Lee can blitz Itachi under the same premise. 




> I disagree with his certainty.



I hear you. Though he was basing it off lack of feats, which, under the impression of some, flies in the Battledome. It's basically what allows people to argue against the claim that Minato can seal people in pebbles. 




> Then the burden of proof is on you to substantiate that confidence.



Susano'o protected Itachi from Kirin. Bone what? 





> The only things I'm not sure of, like I said, are how easily it will do this or how the Yata no Kagami would perform against it.



What about Perfect Susano'o, or Sasuke's final Susano'o?


----------



## eyeknockout (Jul 25, 2013)

Depends on whether or not madara dies by getting a hole ripped through his susanoo and chest by totsuka or if he gets sealed by totsuka instead


----------



## Jagger (Jul 25, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> Depends on whether or not madara dies by getting a hole ripped through his susanoo and chest by totsuka or if he gets sealed by totsuka instead


He survived getting struck by the God of Shinobi, Totsuka is nothing. 

On a serious note, while Madara can outlast Itachi, he has never been the kind of person that waits for his enemy to do something (Itachi). His plans are always fast and precise, an example of that can be his fight with Sasuke and Nagato. Madara is also the arrogant kind of person that you need to push to the corner in order to make him go serious, Itachi can somehow take advantage of that.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Madara canonically knows he can't beat Itachi.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

"Though much weaker" 

Also, Juubi's will < Rin. Wills suck.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

That doesn't matter. He has the knowledge and "completely invincible" is an absolute statement unlike "stronger than me." 



Madara's gumbai turned back a beast bomb, and this + the databook conclusively proves that Yata Mirror > nameless gumbai.

Both items were legitimized. But Itachi could win with a clone feint Hashirama-style too. ​


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> That doesn't matter. He has the knowledge and "completely invincible" is an absolute statement unlike "stronger than me."



Zetsu is not Madara. 

From Zetsu's perspective, Itachi is invincible.

From Madara's he is not. Unless we know of Madara saying the same thing.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Besisdes, it was white Zetsu who said that.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

This kind of denial from posters is why I originally began arguing for Itachi in the first place, so bless you. 

Black Zetsu has Madara's knowledge and plans, which is why Madara told Obito to think of that Zetsu as himself. 

And wut? I think it's pretty clear that Black Zetsu said the hype given the text, and that White Zetsu was typified as the ignorant one.​


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> This kind of denial from posters is why I originally began arguing for Itachi in the first place, so bless you. ​



Completely invincible fighters don't loose fights to Sasuke. 

Zetsu was canonically wrong.  Besides, ever heard of the expression "a figure of speech"?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Completely invincible fighters don't loose fights to Sasuke.



Itachi _Shikamaru'd_ that loss. Here's the viz translation:



> Sasuke: He used the Mangekyo Sharingan on me. So...
> Tobi: Even your contingency plans were part of his calculations. Itachi had to pressure you during that battle.
> Sasuke: .....!
> Tobi: I'm sure you already understand why?





Rocky said:


> Besides, ever heard of the expression "a figure of speech"?



.​


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi _Shikamaru'd_ that loss. Here's the viz translation:
> 
> Sasuke: He used the Mangekyo Sharingan on me. So...
> Tobi: Even your contingency plans were part of his calculations. Itachi had to pressure you during that battle.
> ...



You don't understand. Invincible fighters cannot be defeated. An Invincible Itachi couldn't have lost if he tried.



> .



Sometimes. An aspiring boxer might think of Mayweather as "Completely Invincible". Too good to be beaten, etc.

You fail to take perspective into account. Weak people can think strong people are unbeatable. Zetsu = Weak. Itachi = Strong. 

Vegeta thought Frieza was unbeatable, and that was totally the case right.


----------



## αce (Jul 25, 2013)

Zetsu isn't equivalent to Madara in every way but I'm pretty sure Strat is trolling just for the sake of trolling or else he'd also have to adopt the notion that Itachi is stronger than Madara _without_ restrictions given the fact that Zetsu said that comment freely without this shitty thread in his mind. And I highly doubt that Kishi was factoring all of this in during his hype statements. Once again battledome, you never cease to amaze me with how far you look into things. 






Feat wise, there is an argument for Itachi. It _completely_ depends on his higher form of Susano-o, since he's outclassed in every other way, but the argument is still there. Portrayal wise, even without perfect Susano-o, Madara is clearly depicted as the superior. Take it for what you will. The fact that Madara hasn't even shown his 2 Mangekyou techniques that are required for his Susano-o (and that make up the bulk of a Mangekyou users strength) and is _still_ arguably stronger than Itachi feat wise says enough about who wins this match.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

You're wrong, Ace. I've concluded that Kishimoto had to kill Itachi off before bringing out Juubito because it was the only way for Obito to stand any chance whatsoever. Also, that's why Obito waited. ​


----------



## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

*@Strat*

If Black Zetsu was Madara, he would've known Nagato died yet when Madara himself was revived, he assumed Nagato revived him.


----------



## αce (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm 95% sure Madara's trump card is Itachi.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You don't understand. Invincible fighters cannot be defeated. An Invincible Itachi couldn't have lost if he tried.



That's not so much a figure of speech as ignoring the noun. If an invincible fighter isn't fighting then he isn't invincible, ya' dig? ​


Rocky said:


> Sometimes. An aspiring boxer might think of Mayweather as "Completely Invincible". Too good to be beaten, etc.



A lancer once asked a peasant how the peasant would beat another knight. The peasant said, "with a knife, while he slept... but on a horse, with a lance... that man's invincible."​


Rocky said:


> You fail to take perspective into account. Weak people can think strong people are unbeatable. Zetsu = Weak. Itachi = Strong.



Black Zetsu has Madara's knowledge, and he thus has knowledge of Obito, Juubi, Nagato, Hashirama, etc. His hype is as legitimate as it gets regardless of his own strength.​


Rocky said:


> Vegeta thought Frieza was unbeatable, and that was totally the case right.



This proves my last point, because that's a case of ignorance. Vegeta didn't know the Androids had been developed, the afterlife, Bibidi's creation, etc.

It could be fucking Krillin calling someone completely invincible, but if Krillin witnessed ultimate Gohan, then the hype still stands because, despite his personal weakness, he's seen beasts.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Trance said:


> *@Strat*
> 
> If Black Zetsu was Madara, he would've known Nagato died yet when Madara himself was revived, he assumed Nagato revived him.



It's a Madara clone. In the future, you'll be able to upload your personality and memories so - wait, fuck it: think Orochimaru. The Orochimaru alive now is not the Orochimaru in Itachi's Totsuka.

It's a separate incarnation, a copy. He has all of his memories up until placed in Anko's seal, then he observed through the seal. He's a forked version of the original Orochimaru.​


----------



## Yagura (Jul 25, 2013)

IMO, Amaterasu should be able to weaken the structural fortitude of Madara's Susano'o too the point that the Totsuka can penetrate it.


----------



## Legend777 (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Black Zetsu has Madara's knowledge, and he thus *has knowledge of Obito, Juubi, Nagato, Hashirama, etc*. His hype is as legitimate as it gets regardless of his own strength.​



So Itachi is stronger than the fucking Juubi now ?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Legend777 said:


> So Itachi is stronger than the fucking Juubi now ?



The Ten-Tails was just casually sealed by Obito after Obito had just been shiv-raped by Kakashi, Minato, and Madara within half a chapter, so I think Itachi's legendary items could manage.



Like Ace, I'm predicting that Madara busts out Kuchiyose: Itachi to turn the odds. Next chapter the Yata Mirror will block the the beast bomb next to Minato, and Obito will be Totsuka'd in between panels.​


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> That's not so much a figure of speech as ignoring the noun. If an invincible fighter isn't fighting then he isn't invincible, ya' dig? ​



The term Zetsu used was "Completely Invincible", not "Invincible Fighter".



> in?vin?ci?ble
> /inˈvinsəbəl/
> 
> Adjective
> ...



I don't see "unless he isn't fighting" anywhere in there. 



> It made me think of a movie where a lancer asked how a peasant would beat another knight. The peasant said, "with a knife, while he slept" or something like, "but on a horse, with a lance... that man's invincible."​



Then the knight was not _completely_ invincible because by dictionary definition invincible people cannot be defeated. Completely Invincible is absolute; it leaves no room for petty leeway.



> Black Zetsu has Madara's knowledge, and he thus has knowledge of Obito, Juubi, Hashirama, etc. His hype is as legitimate as it gets.​



Yes, but for all we know he could also consider all of them "completely invincible". 



> It could be fucking Krillin calling someone completely invincible, but if Krillin witnessed SSJ3 Goku, then the hype still stands.​



Which is why I consider it hyperbole and not meant to be taken at face value.

Jiraiya called Minato unsurpassable while knowing of Rikudou Sennin. Rikudou < Minato, 100% Manga canon.


----------



## Legend777 (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Pretty sure the Ten-Tails was just casually sealed by Obito after Obito has just been raped by Kakashi, Minato, and Madara. So who's to say that Itachi and super duper items can't manage?
> 
> ​



The logic in this post ... 

I'll ask you once : Are you just trolling for fun ?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya called Minato unsurpassable while knowing of Rikudou Sennin.



Zetsu knew about Rikudō Sennin and Minato. Jiriaya didn't even know about Amaterasu, let alone Susano'o or the items. So the pecking order is clear here. ​


Legend777 said:


> The logic in this post ...
> 
> I'll ask you once : Are you just trolling for fun ?



I never joke about Itachi. Never. Not even Nurse Itachi.​


----------



## eyeknockout (Jul 25, 2013)

if juubi doesn't have hiraishin obviously he won't be fast enough to dodge totsuka blitz 

madara is arrogant, itachi isn't. haven't any of you guys heard the famous quote "the arrogant water flows in the way that the calm water obstructs, if you have the calm water mix with the arrogant water it will move until it is calm enough to have the proper destination unplanned, now if you plan to choose the right water to drink from, the calm is the necessity and the arrogant is negligeable in the circle of life"- anonymous

basically it says itachi can beat madara through common sense instead of too much power


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Zetsu knew about Rikudō Sennin and Minato. Jiriaya didn't even know about Amaterasu, let alone Susano'o or the items. So the pecking order is clear here. ​



Jiraiya's knowledge on Susano'o & Items is unknown to you. 

Amaterasu =/= Susano'o.

Zetsu also didn't know about all of Minato's abilities to my knowledge.





And besides, I've already said Zetsu was canonically wrong because Completely Invincible people by definition cannot be defeated no matter what. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



And Itachi was defeated


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 25, 2013)

SSM12 must be spitting through his teeth at his computer while reading the last couple pages of this thread... 



ueharakk said:


> expectation isn't subjective (at least how I am using it here). if you claim there's a forest fire 200 meters ahead, then you should expect to see the forest fire, to hear the forest fire, to smell the forest fire, etc.  If there is an absence of all of these evidences that you should expect to experience given the proposition is true, then it's all positive evidence against the proposition.



Or you just don't notice the signs of the fire for some personal or external reason you're not aware of. Knowledge and awareness are equivocal; you could say people live in their own illusions. 



> But anyways, I conceded the point for the reasons I've given in my edit.



Fair enough.



> Your attacking a strawman.  I'm not saying that EVERY blade itachi's susanoo uses is a standard one and not Totsuka, I'm saying that his susanoo is capable of the same generic, nameless blades that Madara's and Sasuke's are capable of.  Sasuke calls his enton swords "enton susanoo kagutsuchi" but he nor madara give any name to their generic susanoo swords.
> 
> If the scan where itachi slashed the bones says "totsuka no tsurugi" in it then sure its got to be totsuka, but I don't remember it being called that in the scan.



Itachi didn't name it the first time he brought it out, either; Zetsu did, and obviously for reader/author convenience because this was the weapon's exhibition.

I tell you, what I see is the same energy sword that Zetsu called the Totsuka no Tsurugi; I don't really care about what Sasuke or Madara have or whether or not those have names.



> He wielded it in that form, but that was only after he manifested it with his V4 susanoo.  Thus the premise that he can only manifest the spiritual items with a lvl4 susanoo still stands.



But no one said that was the case; you're conflating what happened with what was necessary to happen, which is another fallacy (haven't whipped out that term in a while).

The databook entry on Itachi's Susano'o says it wields the Totsuka in one hand and the Yata in the other; it makes no provision for the chakra weapons wielded by Sasuke and Madara. We don't even have a proper understanding of either of these items, their origins, or how they ended up equipped to Itachi's Susano'o. But to say that Itachi has identical-looking chakra weapons that were never pointed out, for no reason other than to confuse the reader (Why don't they at least look slightly different?), is still a long way off from proving which one Itachi used to cut Sawarabi no Mai.

My basic human intelligence tells me it was the Totsuka no Tsurugi, and whatever standard chakra blade Itachi is capable of generating is assimilated with it.

Do you really think what SSM12's suggesting makes ANY buttfucking sense whatsoever? Like, the Totsuka no Tsurugi wielded by Itachi's complete Susano'o is an inferior blade to the one wielded by his incomplete versions? Where is the fucking logic behind that?



> You do know that allowing itachi the ability to manifest his spiritual items at a lower level makes it far more likely that he used yaata to survive kirin right?



No evidence Itachi manifested more than a hand or a ribcage. No evidence he managed to get the shield in front of Kirin in time. Etc. Point is, I still have some excuses reasonable doubt. 



> Er... you said "assuming that is true" which means that given he can only manifest Totsuka with a V4, blah blah blah.
> 
> if you want to rescind that and now defend the point that he can manifest totsuka with skeletal, then it's fine by me, but I'd just like to clear this up now.



Oh, fair enough.


----------



## Yagura (Jul 25, 2013)

αce said:


> Feat wise, there is an argument for Itachi. It _completely_ depends on his higher form of Susano-o, since he's outclassed in every other way



What feats put Madara above Itachi in genjutsu, taijutsu, speed or intelligence?  Or even ninjutsu given the stipulations?


----------



## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

"Completely invincible" means you can't be beaten and you have no weaknesses, right? 

What does Itachi say here?

"It's said *every* strong man has a *weak point*." 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Either Niku or Strat are gonna argue against this. Can't say I didn't try.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Itachi wouldn't be including himself in a blanket statement about mere mortals.  That might be valid against Madara though.​


			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> And besides, I've already said Zetsu was canonically wrong because Completely Invincible people by definition cannot be defeated no matter what.



Itachi has never been defeated. His battles weren't traditional and he ultimately succeeded/won against Sasuke, Kabuto, etc.​


----------



## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi's weakness was clearly indicated to be (his love for) Sasuke. Madara doesn't know that.​
> 
> 
> Itachi has never been defeated. He succeeded against Sasuke and Kabuto.[/indenty]​




Obito knows his weakness and he confides in Zetsu (since they were BFFFs). 

Minato has never been defeated either. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



His deal with the Kyūbi was a draw.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi has never been defeated.







> His battles weren't traditional



Irrelevant. The definition does not make an exception for  non-traditional occasions.



> and he ultimately succeeded/won against Sasuke.



He looked pretty dead against Sasuke.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

All according to plan.



Rocky said:


> Irrelevant. The definition does not make an exception for  non-traditional occasions.



He's never been defeated. It fits.



Rocky said:


> He looked pretty dead against Sasuke.



If he hadn't died as he intended, _then_ it would've been defeat.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> All according to plan.



His plan was to be defeated.



> He's never been defeated. Sounds invincible to me.



It appears you don't comprehend Itachi's plan, which included defeat. Sasuke defeated Itachi to become a hero. 

He clearly died fighting Sasuke. Sasuke lived. Itachi died. Sasuke won.



> If he hadn't died as he intended, _then_ it would've been defeat.



What do the two have to do with each other. 

Itachi threw the fight, meaning he is not invincible. Invincible people cannot loose a fight. The definition was clear to you, correct?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

If your objective is to lose and you lose, then you've won.​


----------



## Veracity (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi wouldn't be including himself in a blanket statement about mere mortals.  That might be valid against Madara though.​
> 
> 
> Itachi has never been defeated. His battles weren't traditional and he ultimately succeeded/won against Sasuke, Kabuto, etc.​



Do you honestly think Hashi would lose to Itachi?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 25, 2013)

Is Strategos even being serious now? Or is he just joking around? Honestly its really hard to tell when he debates on Itachi now days.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> No, you don't understand. If your objective is to be defeated in a fight, and you lose a fight, then you've won.​





What? Itachi accomplished his goal, but he didn't "win" anything. 

If your so sure, what did Itachi defeat Sasuke in?


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> *Or you just don't notice the signs of the fire for some personal or external reason you're not aware of.* Knowledge and awareness are equivocal; you could say people live in their own illusions.


If you want to assert the bolded as an explanation for why you don't experience things you should expect to experience had there been a fire, then you'd have to assert and argue for those things as well and show why those are the best explanation of the evidence.  



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi didn't name it the first time he brought it out, either; Zetsu did, and obviously for reader/author convenience because this was the weapon's exhibition.
> 
> *I tell you, what I see is the same energy sword that Zetsu called the Totsuka no Tsurugi;* I don't really care about what Sasuke or Madara have or whether or not those have names.


well, since Sasuke and madara having the generic swords is kind of my argument, you can't really not care about it, you have to address it.

Asside from that, the bolded seems to be the argument you are supporting below, so i'll just merge this.




Nikushimi said:


> But no one said that was the case; you're conflating what happened with what was necessary to happen, which is another fallacy (haven't whipped out that term in a while).


I never said that he evidence shows it was NECESSARILY true that Itachi's susanoo needs to be a V4 in order to use the spirit weapons I merely am supporting my argument with evidence that shows that it's the most plausible explanation or the best explanation of the evidence.

The fallacy would be accusing me of saying it's 'necessarily true that....' which is something that I never assert unless I attach an "if" statement before that assertion.  And of course, since the necessity hinges on the truth of the 'if' you are free to debate the plausibility of the 'if'.



Nikushimi said:


> The databook entry on Itachi's Susano'o says it wields the Totsuka in one hand and the Yata in the other; it makes no provision for the chakra weapons wielded by Sasuke and Madara. We don't even have a proper understanding of either of these items, their origins, or how they ended up equipped to Itachi's Susano'o. But to say that Itachi has identical-looking chakra weapons that were never pointed out, for no reason other than to confuse the reader (Why don't they at least look slightly different?), is still a long way off from proving which one Itachi used to cut Sawarabi no Mai.


Wait, I am confused.  How is the scan of itachi cutting the bones show an identical sword to Totsuka?  I don't 



Nikushimi said:


> My basic human intelligence tells me it was the Totsuka no Tsurugi, and whatever standard chakra blade Itachi is capable of generating is assimilated with it.


Why would standard chakra blades be assimilated with Totsuka?  We see totsuka blade come out of the jar that's stated to be a distinct spiritual weapon, I don't see how that could be a result of assimilation with a sword that is generated by susanoo itself.



Nikushimi said:


> Do you really think what SSM12's suggesting makes ANY buttfucking sense whatsoever? Like, the Totsuka no Tsurugi wielded by Itachi's complete Susano'o is an inferior blade to the one wielded by his incomplete versions? Where is the fucking logic behind that?


er, i haven't even read SSM12's post, and I don't think a Totsuka wielded by a lower stage would be inferior to the upper stage unless if it was much smaller or had clear inferior feats.




Nikushimi said:


> No evidence Itachi manifested more than a hand or a ribcage. No evidence he managed to get the shield in front of Kirin in time. Etc. Point is, I still have some excuses reasonable doubt.


I wouldn't say that.  Evidence that itachi manifested more than a hand or a ribcage would be susanoo's other durability feats, or the fact that he's going up against a gigantic attack of which he doesn't know the strength of and thus would go all out with his defenses.  Or the fact that he has shown the ability to go instant V3. 

However, now that you bring in the possibility of yaata wielding susanoo being busted by kirin, it would downgrade the strength of the whole kirin feat in other arguments.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Actually



Strategoob said:


> If your objective is to lose​



Impossible objective. Completely Invincible people cannot lose.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Do you honestly think Hashi would lose to Itachi?



I'm going to make an "Itachi vs Ten-Tails (why Itachi wins)" thread.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Is Strategos even being serious now? Or is he just joking around? Honestly its really hard to tell when he debates on Itachi now days.







Rocky said:


> What? Itachi accomplished his goal, but he didn't "win" anything.



He accomplished exactly what he set out to do. That's _victory_.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He accomplished exactly what he set out to do lol.



Which was loose.



			
				Strat said:
			
		

> If your objective is to lose


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

> *vic?to?ry  *
> /ˈvikt(ə)rē/
> Noun
> An act of defeating an enemy or opponent in a battle, game, or other competition: "an election victory".
> ...



Itachi defeated Sasuke in no battle, game or competition. I don't see "accomplish what you set out to do" anywhere.

Your personal definition of victory does nothing for me.


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## Legend777 (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky I think you are misunderstanding something .

Zetsu said that "Itachi is invincible when he brings out both the Yata   and Totsuka  "  .  Possibly means he can lose if he can't use them .



Strategoob said:


> I never joke about Itachi. Never.​



I get it .



> Not even Nurse Itachi.



Is he superior to the one we are talking about ?



Nikushimi said:


> This is something new?



My bad


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Legend777 said:


> Rocky I think you are misunderstanding something .
> 
> Zetsu said that "Itachi is invincible when he brings out both the Yata   and Totsuka  "  .  Possibly means he can lose if he can't use them .



Don't intervene, Padawan.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Your personal definition of victory does nothing for me.



Dictionary.com lists multiple definitions precisely so internet debters won't erroneously and obnoxiously correct people's word usage.



			
				victory said:
			
		

> 4. a success or superior position achieved against any opponent, opposition, difficulty, etc.: a moral victory.



That fits. Itachi achieved _exactly_ what he wanted to, or success, within the battle, no? Hence he was victorious.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

What success or superior position did Itachi achieve against Sasuke.



> Itachi achieved exactly what he wanted to



And what was that?


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## Legend777 (Jul 25, 2013)

Itachi wins even when he loses .

Itachi is right even when he is wrong .

Itachi solos even when he doesn't .

Is there something this man can't do ?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What success or superior position did Itachi achieve against Sasuke.



1. Extracted Orochimaru and exorcised the curse.

2. Awakened Sasuke's Mangekyō and gave him info to the Eternal Mangekyō.

3. Planned _everything_ about the fight and executed it accordingly.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Legend777 said:


> Itachi wins even when he loses .
> 
> Itachi is right even when he is wrong .
> 
> ...



He can't earn SuperSaiyanMan12's love.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> 1. Extracted Orochimaru.
> 
> 2. Awakened his Mangekyō.
> 
> 3. Planned everything about the fight and executed it accordingly.



I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about the actual fight.

Itachi took part in a fight with Sasuke. Sasuke was the victor.

Stop hiding 

For Itachi to succeed in one thing, he had to *lose* in another.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 25, 2013)

Nothing. Nothign at all is invincible. Everything has a built in weakness. All Zetsu said was 'essentially' invincible too, and the guy's been wrong in the past and isn't infallible.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Itachi planned everything about the fight. He executed the plan flawlessly. That's a success. That's a victory. That's a triumph. 

You think the fallacy is your ally? You merely adopted fallacies. I was born in them, molded by them. I didn't see valid logic until I was already a man, and by then it was nothing to me but infuriating!​


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

What have I done? ck


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> How can we be going in circles. Itachi planned everything about the fight.
> 
> He executed the plan flawlessly. That's a success. That's a victory.



You're missing the point. 

Did Itachi's plan include losing to Sasuke?


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

And it's a Yes or No.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You're missing the point.
> 
> Did Itachi's plan include losing to Sasuke?



Let me try. 

Did Jesus Christ lose to Pontius Pilate?


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

I don't know, nor do I care. That has nothing to do with what I asked.

What, can you not answer yes or no to that yes or no question?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't know, nor do I care.
> 
> What, can you not answer yes or no to that yes or no question?



What, can you not understand asnwers that are more complicated than "yes" or "no?" ​


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> What, can you not understand asnwers that are more complicated than "yes" or "no?"​



?

"Did Itachi's plan involve loosing to Sasuke" does not merit anything more than a "yes" or a "no."

Also, the criminal justice system disagrees with you.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> ? "Did Itachi's plan involve loosing to Sasuke" does not merit anything more than a "yes" or a "no."



I plead the fifth. **


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I plead the fifth.



Not allowed. What you say will not reveal any criminal actions you have partaken in. 

Come on, you know everything about Itachi. You can't tell me one basic part of his plan?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Not allowed. What you say will not reveal any criminal actions you have partaken in.
> 
> Come on, you know everything about Itachi. You can't tell me one basic part of his plan?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Yes, part of Itachi's plan was to die to Sasuke... "lose" to Sasuke.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

> lose



You said it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Invincible people cannot lose!!!!!!

Period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## God of Kingz (Jul 25, 2013)

Madara will probably end up outlasting Itachi with Susano'o. Though that Ama trick someone mentioned might work... Itachi'd have to really use his wits here.



αce said:


> Feat wise - since he's outclassed in every other way.



What, honestly? .....this isn't true at all.


_Ninjutsu:_ Amaterasu is far better offensively than any Katon or other ninjutsu Madara can dish out in this match up.

_Genjutsu:_ Madara's best feat is catching the not-very-smart-or-skillful brute Ē with the EMS. Itachi has the feat of catching the Genjutsu adept genius Orochimaru (5/5 stat) with just the base Sharingan at, like, 13. The difference is quite clear. And this isn't even factoring in Tsukiyomi, either.

_Taijutsu:_ Does Madara even have any CQC feats that aren't against fodders? Itachi has some against established characters like KCM Naruto, Kakashi, Sasuke...

_Speed:_ Can't really remember what Madara has to show here either. As for Itachi, he was surprising Killer Bee with his speed - the guy who reacted to Minato. He also has superior reactions to current Sasuke as seen in the fight with Kabuto.

_Intelligence: _ Itachi as a fighter has always employed intelligent and effective use of genjutsu, bunshins and other basic ninjutsu and skills. But more than that, he's shown the ability to break down the workings of a jutsu, find the weakness, and formulate a counter. Madara, on the other hand, just seems to try to plow through everything with brute force.

_Stamina:_ Madara has this one, easily. Fighting for 24 hours straight is pretty incredible. Especially next to Itachi's rather measly stamina.


So yeah.


But, realistically, what has always really held a living EMS Madara above the likes Itachi, Minato, Obito, current Sasuke etc. is his ability to bust up mountain ranges with the perfect Susano'o. Without that though, he's much more on they're level.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Just curious, what exactly are we trying to achieve in arguing about semantics?



It's a long story.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You said it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Invincible people cannot lose!!!!!!
> 
> Period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



itachi is invincible, itachi's plan was to fail. if you succeed at failing what have you really done?

someone who cannot lose (itachi) was instead killed by himself (disease) his own body turned on him, that still makes him invincible since it was the unbeatable (itachi) that killed himself (itachi). losing to someone that cannot ever lose does not make you not invincible, it makes you part of a paradox that shall not ever be spoken about again


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 25, 2013)

God of Kingz said:


> _Ninjutsu:_ Amaterasu is far better offensively than any Katon or other ninjutsu Madara can dish out in this match up.


You do realize that Amaterasu has to be used to counter the massively powerful Katons that Madara brings to the table, right? And said Amaterasu will weaken Itachi?


> _Genjutsu:_ Madara's best feat is catching the not-very-smart-or-skillful brute Ē with the EMS. Itachi has the feat of catching the Genjutsu adept genius Orochimaru (5/5 stat) with just the base Sharingan at, like, 13. The difference is quite clear. And this isn't even factoring in Tsukiyomi, either.


...Onoki and the entire manga hyped up Madara's genjutsu abilities. He's one of the only two Uchiha who were able to fucking control Kurama with their Sharingan. And A is normally immune to genjutsu due to his speed and his amped up nervous system-Madara still put him under after boxing him in. The manga never said Orochimaru was a 'genjutsu adept', the 5 stat means Orochimaru was knowledgable about it. And guess what: Itachi's genjutsu is USELESS, including Tsukuyomi. Madara has the EMS-which means he can see through EVERYTHING and break everything Itachi throws at him. Again, Madara is on a higher level in general.


> _Taijutsu:_ Does Madara even have any CQC feats that aren't against fodders? Itachi has some against established characters like KCM Naruto, Kakashi, Sasuke...


Itachi fought a weakened KCM Naruto who was holding back, and Kakashi and Sasuke BOTH equaled his speed and strength in taijutsu in Part II. Itachi isn't a taijutsu god. Madara was plowing through an entire division through taijutsu ALONE, reacted to A's blitz, reacted to Tsunade appearing on the battlefield. Not only that, equaling Hashirama's taijutsu prowess.



> _Speed_: Can't really remember what Madara has to show here either. As for Itachi, he was surprising Killer Bee with his speed - the guy who reacted to Minato. He also has superior reactions to current Sasuke as seen in the fight with Kabuto.


1. Madara reacted to the third fastest shinobi in the manga without Susano'o.
2. Killer Bee KNEW Itachi was behind him and countered before even Itachi's warning. And Killer Bee only reacted to Minato because Minato explicitly gave himself away.
3. Sasuke reacted better than Itachi during the Kabuto fight, and a living Itachi wouldn't have the same reflexes as Edo Itachi anyway.


> _Intelligence: _ Itachi as a fighter has always employed intelligent and effective use of genjutsu, bunshins and other basic ninjutsu and skills. But more than that, he's shown the ability to break down the workings of a jutsu, find the weakness, and formulate a counter. Madara, on the other hand, just seems to try to plow through everything with brute force.


So wait, the guy who _created the fucking Tsuki no Mai_ plan, manipulated Obito into becoming who he is today, created backup plans for if Obito turned on him, and even fucking used Susano'o to cloak Kurama so he could be shielded from Hashirama's Mokuton suppression isn't smarter than Itachi? You're exaggerating Itachi so damn much it isn't even funny.


> _Stamina:_ Madara has this one, easily. Fighting for 24 hours straight is pretty incredible. Especially next to Itachi's rather measly stamina.


And Madara can basically use his Susano'o far more frequently.



> So yeah.
> 
> 
> But, realistically, what has always really held a living EMS Madara above the likes Itachi, Minato, Obito, current Sasuke etc. is his ability to bust up mountain ranges with the perfect Susano'o. Without that though, he's much more on they're level.


...no, even without Perfect Susano'o, he was put above Itachi, Sasuke, and other Uchiha. Hell, all five Kages were needed just to counter his pre-Perfect Susano'o power. He was tearing through an entire division with just TAIJUTSU AND HIS SUSANO'O, required DOZENS of Suiton users to counter ONE of his Katons, and Onoki, Gaara, and Naruto were struggling to even get his attention.

He was put on a level above other Uchiha even without Perfect Susano'o. Stop overhyping Itachi.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> itachi is invincible, itachi's plan was to fail. if you succeed at failing what have you really done?
> 
> someone who cannot lose (itachi) was instead killed by himself (disease) his own body turned on him, that still makes him invincible since it was the unbeatable (itachi) that killed himself (itachi). losing to someone that cannot ever lose does not make you not invincible, it makes you part of a paradox that shall not ever be spoken about again



Lol, it took you that long to realize Rocky had Strat cornered?


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## Dr. White (Jul 25, 2013)

Itachi needs forewarning and preparation for him to get near taking this fight.


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## Seiji (Jul 25, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Just curious, what exactly are we trying to achieve in arguing about semantics?



Arguin' for the sake of winning not that it actually contributes to anything. Either way Sasuke didn't really defeat Itachi since Itachi already died due to his disease. It's funny cause Itachi may have lost the fight but not because anyone actually beat him.  Sauce dat lucky bastard.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 25, 2013)

itachi wins due to totsuka blade and yata mirror


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## Nikushimi (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> In debates, it's the most logical way.



No it isn't; I just went through this with you. It's precisely illogical. 



> Otherwise we wouldn't use it cause we aint a stupid race.



You're more optimistic than I am. 



> Would you find it more logically if the alternate was true?



Yes, because it is more logical.

You're seem to be confusing logic with ethics/morality.



> Yours or Itachi's.


 
My opinion is Itachi's opinion. 

Except when it comes to favorite foods. Fuck cabbage.



> Lee didn't use the Gates, which aren't included in the Databook. Try again.



Lee has to open the Gates, which gives Itachi time to put up Susano'o.



> I must concede this point.
> 
> Logically, steel > wood, and Sage powered wood > Sword-Bijuudama spam, and Sword Bijuudama spam > Susano'o, logically.



This actually only works under the assumption that all Senjutsu users can wield the same amount of natural energy, which we know isn't true.



> Why not?



Nukite isn't long enough.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes, because it is more logical.
> 
> You're seem to be confusing logic with ethics/morality.



Logic is ethical. 



> My opinion is Itachi's opinion.



You would totally leave Sasuke alive. 




> Lee has to open the Gates, which gives Itachi time to put up Susano'o.



Over the timeskip, Lee learned a new technique that allows him to bypass Susano'o. 



> Nukite isn't long enough.



So Raikage keeps running.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 25, 2013)

Feat wise madara is shoted by tsukuyomi.

Hype wise madara can win but i don't like his chances.

Mainly because of Izanami. if this turns into a susnaoo vs sunaoo match madara can't win.

We see it with ems sasuke ems it self is not all that grand its the unlimted spam the accesss to perfect susnaoo that puts it over that top assuming you don't need rinnigan.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 25, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> Feat wise madara is shoted by tsukuyomi.




Madara has the FUCKING EMS. He has UCHIHA BLOOD. He has high intelligence. He has everything that is needed to break Tsukuyomi with EASE. Dear god KnightGhost.



> Mainly because of Izanami. if this turns into a susnaoo vs sunaoo match madara can't win.


Are you fricken serious? Madara knows of Izanami, he fucking taught it to Obito. He doesn't meet the qualifications and even Itachi knew it was useless against Dojutsu users who aren't using Izanagi.

Oh...a Susano'o vs Susano'o match? You mean a technique Madara can spam and Itachi' can't...and Itachi wins why? Oh because Itachi is your favorite.


> We see it with ems sasuke ems it self is not all that grand its the unlimted spam the accesss to perfect susnaoo that puts it over that top assuming you don't need rinnigan.


EMS grants the ability to spam MS abilities. Madara fought for 24 hours straight with his EMS. 

Itachi loses. Dear god.


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## Yagura (Jul 25, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> Feat wise madara is shoted by tsukuyomi.
> .



I think you mean 'one-shotted'. And no, they're is no possibility of this ever happening ever. Not unless Itachi becomes the Jubi Jinchuriki or some shit.



God of Kingz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Beat me too it. Good post.


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## Epicpudding (Jul 25, 2013)

Madara wins without even trying. I don't even see how this is a debate.


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## Jagger (Jul 25, 2013)

Legend777 said:


> Itachi wins even when he loses .
> 
> Itachi is right even when he is wrong .
> 
> ...


Yes, he can't stop looking like a woman.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 25, 2013)

this 



except replace kurenai with madara (or hashirama)


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## Edo Madara (Jul 26, 2013)

Itachi makes Madara his bitch with Kotoamatsukami


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