# sage naruto vs MS sasuke



## kevsin (Oct 1, 2008)

who you reckon is stronger at this sort of time?


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## the box (Oct 1, 2008)

right now naruto 

he has strength , speed, stamina, unlimited chakra, stronger jutsu, extrem endurence, and thats just the tip he hasent even gotten the key training yet.


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## Smok3d (Oct 1, 2008)

senjutsu KB's would rape stomp sasuke. see, if he had that frog song genjutsu he'd kill em all!


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## Tony Lou (Oct 1, 2008)

the box said:


> right now naruto
> 
> he has strength , speed, stamina, unlimited chakra, stronger jutsu, extrem endurence, and thats just the tip he hasent even gotten the key training yet.



It's only the beginning.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 1, 2008)

This Naruto has Itachi's power up to counter the MS, all his jutsu capabilities increase with Hermit Mode as well.

This Naruto wins, now I will laugh at anyone who mistakes this for saying Naruto will stomp Sasuke.


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## AoshiKun (Oct 1, 2008)

We didn't see Naruto in action yet and seems Sasuke can't full control his MS so I dunno.


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## Absolute Zero (Oct 1, 2008)

well narto can fall on teh rox on not get hert

but the sauce can burn a bijuu

so i say sakura, because she can flash dem and theyd be like, "no wai!" and then shed punch them in the balls!

Or how about this - Battledome, or wait until they actually fight?


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## Turrin (Oct 1, 2008)

Depends on allot of unkown factors. We don't know how many MS Techniques Sasuke has or even if his Genjutsu used on Hachibi was Tskuyomi. We also don't know how much naruto perfect or near perfect sage mode has increased his stamina, taijutsu, ninjutsu, speed, power, or Genjutsu. We also don't know what naruto's "that jutsu" is or what exactly learning kumite will do for him. We also don't know the effect of Sannin mode on all of naruto's ninjutsu. Is Rasengan in sannin mode automatically Ultimate Rasengan...then whats Oddoma Rasengan. Does Naruto now know how to summon the two frog Sages can he used other wind Ninjutsu in battle. Whats the effect of Sage chakra on Kage Bushin and the kyuubi. Can he combine KN0 with Sage Chakra? 

Since we don't know these things its impossible to tell. I can say that so far Naruto has more potential then Sasuke because he has Sage Training, Kyuubi, "That jutsu", Minato's "that jutsu", and Itachi's power while so far Sasuke developement is limited to only the MS with a slight possiblity of him at one point obtaining EMS. However as of right now its extremely difficult to lean one way or another especially since Sasuke has not mastered MS and Naruto has not completed his Sage Training or "that jutsu".

Of off complete speculation i would say that naruto has probably surpassed the current Sasuke who has yet to master his MS. And once naruto finishes his Sage Training there will probably be a certain amount of time where he is indisputably stronger then Sasuke especially if he defeats the 6 path ways. However once Sasuke masters MS we'll be back to square one w/o knowing who is stronger or not. When they meet in battle though Sasuke will be at least equal to Sasuke likely slightly stronger. But for now in my personal opinion Naruto stronger then Sasuke and as his Sage training gets closer to completion the gap will only increase.


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## Lezard Valeth (Oct 1, 2008)

battledome


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## The Hand of God (Oct 1, 2008)

Sasuke stomps S. Naruto


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## Inuhanyou (Oct 1, 2008)

take it to the battleguy peepz, they havent even fought yet


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## Goku• (Oct 1, 2008)

Naruto is stronger, faster, alot more durable and has alot more chakra, after his kung fu training his taijutsu will also surpass Sasuke, the only problem is Amaterasu, because sage chakra he gathers from the atmosphere will be enough to deal with sharingan genjutsu, but I can't see how he will deal with the black flames, unless the power Itachi gave him is to defend against it.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 1, 2008)

sasuke... at first naruto would be beating the shit out of him... but then it will turn out that sasuke was loling too hard at naruto's new look...

he will then take out a mirror and naruto will be like "oh..." as sasuke keeps on loling... naruto will then say "KILL ME! KILL ME NOW!!!" and naruto will fall at sasuke's feet begging...

at which point sasuke will say "ok...wait... hang on..." sasuke will keep loling ofcourse this will agitate naruto into screaming "Hurry the fuck up and get your shit together!"

at which point sasuke will kill naruto...


but it will all be a genjutsu... and naruto will be all like "shit..." but then sasuke will take out a mirror and lol... at which point naruto will be like "fuck it... i'm out" and everyone will point and laugh at naruto...


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## ~SAGE~ (Oct 1, 2008)

Naruto as of now especially if he masters that jutsu and he adds a better taijutsu to his arsenal


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## The Hand of God (Oct 1, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> sasuke... at first naruto would be beating the shit out of him... but then it will turn out that sasuke was loling too hard at naruto's new look...
> 
> he will then take out a mirror and naruto will be like "oh..." as sasuke keeps on loling... naruto will then say "KILL ME! KILL ME NOW!!!" and naruto will fall at sasuke's feet begging...
> 
> ...



that's fucking canon!


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## MS81 (Oct 1, 2008)

Sasuke wtf stomp vag Naruto.


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## A1zen (Oct 1, 2008)

dont know, this is pure speculation we dont know how strong naruto will become in his sennin mode. what kind of new abilities he has or wil use. The same goes for sasuke he has amatarasu, but he is going blind. he seems to be a bit stronger also (hope he takes itachi's eyes from madara). In conlusion we still dont know. for the sake of the speculation, i agree with the post above


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## Nanadaime no Hokage (Oct 1, 2008)

im not sure if naruto can beat sasuke yet. sure the sage training will make him very powerful but that wont protect him against genjutsu if only naruto could have control over the kyuubi like killer bee and the 8 tails he would be able to block against genjutsu.


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## daterza (Oct 1, 2008)

At the moment I think the sauce would win simply because he has had more serious battles than naruto up to now.


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## Csdabest (Oct 1, 2008)

Nin: Sasuke  Tai: Sasuke  Gen: Sasuke   Int: Sasuke  Str: Naruto   Spd: Sasuke   Sta: Naruto  Seal: Sasuke

My guess on how it is MS and Senjutsu included.


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## RaptorJesusDesu (Oct 1, 2008)

Sage KB > All MS skills Sasuke has except Susano'o, if he even has that. 

Naruto wins.

And if he doesn't win now, hey... you know he's gonna win later.

Eat it fanboys. lulz.


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## Csdabest (Oct 1, 2008)

Naruto can't use no more than 3 or 4 KB's w/o losing control. And Sasuke should still be able to own Sage KB.


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## MS81 (Oct 1, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Nin: Sasuke  Tai: Sasuke  Gen: Sasuke   Int: Sasuke  Str: Naruto   Spd: Sasuke   Sta: Naruto  Seal: Sasuke
> 
> My guess on how it is MS and Senjutsu included.



MS and Senjutsu are there haxxx.


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## Inksplash (Oct 1, 2008)

In a chapter or two Naruto is going to be the strongest genin ever.


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## Absolute Zero (Oct 1, 2008)

Inksplash said:


> In a chapter or two Naruto is going to be the strongest genin ever.


Naruto was the strongest genin ever at the beginnin of part 2, keeping in mind Sasuke defected.


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## alexxb (Oct 1, 2008)

I would think Naruto.


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## namikaze uzumaki (Oct 1, 2008)

sage will kill MS


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## Inksplash (Oct 1, 2008)

Absolute Zero said:


> Naruto was the strongest genin ever at the beginnin of part 2, keeping in mind Sasuke defected.



Imma rephrase that. There is no possible way for a genin to be as strong as Naruto.


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## Absolute Zero (Oct 1, 2008)

Inksplash said:


> Imma rephrase that. There is no possible way for a genin to be as strong as Naruto.


Ah, gotcha.

I wonder how fast Naruto could get through the Forest of Death at this point.


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## MidnightToker426 (Oct 1, 2008)

What type of fuckery is this?

I say equal. This is actually a hard decision.


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## Inksplash (Oct 1, 2008)

Absolute Zero said:


> Ah, gotcha.
> 
> I wonder how fast Naruto could get through the Forest of Death at this point.



He's done now.

Edit: That was Seven minutes (approx).


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## Noble Avenger (Oct 1, 2008)

Amaterasu.

Kirin.

You choose which way he dies if Sasuke is serious. There's no evasion, certainly no countering, so what's he gonna do? I forgot, extrapolating Naruto's abilities WAY WAY beyond where we've actually seen them get to here is like drinking at a fucking frat party. There's never anytime (or thread) it DOESN'T happen.


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## The Wired (Oct 1, 2008)

After this training arc.. Naruto is step ahead of Sasuke.


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## Kirabi dupe (Oct 1, 2008)

Naruto would win, and pretty good (for him) at that. 1000 sages is just ridiculous to even imagine to fight.


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## Suzume (Oct 1, 2008)

Of course we can make this decision now.  Who needs to see Naruto use his sage power before deciding how strong it is?  Nevermind that Sasuke supposedly unlocked a new MS power that we haven't seen.[/sarcasm]


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## Crimson Shinobi (Oct 1, 2008)

wow suprised at how naruto is dominating the polls, good deal


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## Sakuragi-Kun (Oct 1, 2008)

we haven't even seen Sage mode Naruto in action yet so i cant say...but from looks of it...Naruto seems like he'll rape Sasuke.


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## Inksplash (Oct 1, 2008)

Ghettoness22 said:


> we haven't even seen Sage mode Naruto in action yet so i cant say...but from looks of it...Naruto seems like he'll rape Sasuke.


That, I'm sorry, is utter shit. I'm sure we can deduce how strong naruto is from seeing how strong an imperfect sage mode Jiraiya was and how Naruto can fall off a cliff and only say 'ow'.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 1, 2008)

sasuke will lol... naruto will cry... and everything will be as it should... thats how its always has been... thats how it always will be...


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## Csdabest (Oct 1, 2008)

People over hyping Sage already. Bottom line. Sage is a stat boost. Sage will just boost his stats. makes him stronger faster and more durable. And it doesnt even do that to some unbeleivable degree. Also THERER NO PROOF NARUTO CAN USE TAJUU KB. Naruto has shown the most is just 4 clones. Cuz of the chakra and sustaining Sage mode. Please keep things real. And if Sasuke gets EMS and get any powers like the ones Madara has...Sage=Crap


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## The Hand of God (Oct 1, 2008)

i bet ten dollars, Sasuke makes Naruto cry.


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## Euraj (Oct 1, 2008)

At this is exact moment, I'll go with Sasuke since Naruto hasn't even finished training yet. Of course, when he's done, he should have surpassed the surpassed the Sannin and then some, so I'm confident he'll be on Sasuke's level _at the least_.


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## The Hand of God (Oct 1, 2008)

Euraj said:


> At this is exact moment, I'll go with Sasuke since Naruto hasn't even finished training yet. Of course, when he's done, he should have surpassed the surpassed the Sannin and then some, so I'm confident he'll be on Sasuke's level _at the least_.



so in other words, you think Sasuke has surpassed the Sannin?


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Oct 1, 2008)

Naruto would get close although he wouldn't technically beat Sasuke. Sasuke will win with his ultimate attack or whatever his true MS power is.

After Naruto masters his new jutsu though I'll give it to Naruto. The time's ending where Sasuke can beat Naruto.


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## The Hand of God (Oct 1, 2008)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Naruto would get close although he wouldn't technically beat Sasuke. Sasuke will win with his ultimate attack or whatever his true MS power is.
> 
> After Naruto masters his new jutsu a*nd discover the UCHIHA POWER Itachi gave him then maybe* I'll give it to Naruto.



fixed for you.


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## Euraj (Oct 1, 2008)

The Hand of God said:


> so in other words, you think Sasuke has surpassed the Sannin?


Well, from that question, I can tell you I think you can't read.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Oct 1, 2008)

The Hand of God said:


> fixed for you.


Alright, I repped you because that was funny. Although I will say that your comments are going a bit to far and you're arent really getting anyone to point towards your side for that but keep trying. Itachi's power will be used to break the power he gave to Sasuke. They negate each other. It'll be an anti-MS. Even so Naruto's power from Itachi will cancel what he gave Sasuke. I don't think that's even one of the things I need to think about considering we all know exactly what it'll be used for. 

Either way you're getting a bad start on being the type of Sasuke fan you are. Go ahead and change and perhaps people will take you seriously.

I stick to what I said. Afrer this training I highly doubt Sasuke will be beating Naruto like tons assume he will. Keep holding onto that.


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## Slayz (Oct 1, 2008)

Naruto will cockslap the shit out of Sasuke.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 1, 2008)

naruto is peeking... thats why the naruto fans are making a huge deal of this... but sasuke still has a long, long way to go till he peeks...

then we sasuke fans will just go "lol" the naruto fans will cry and everything will be as it should


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## cosmosis90 (Oct 1, 2008)

naruto is training, sasuke is fapping and whinging about konoha to madara (sorry to any fans). naruto is indeed peeking but that doesnt mean its the end of his growth. as for sasuke i really cant see him learning any new insane jutsu that doesnt require his insanely powerful eyes. hes just not trining at all. i thnk hard work should be repaid and naruto should be able to defeat, after a long fought battle, sasuke.


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## Csdabest (Oct 1, 2008)

The Hand of God said:


> so in other words, you think Sasuke has surpassed the Sannin?



Damn right they did.

Sasuke already been surpassed Orochimaru.


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## Csdabest (Oct 1, 2008)

Also didnt the databook say that The power was just Itachi's hope. Not anypower. >_> It never was technique given.

But yeah. Sasuke is strong and skilled as he is with his powers and has only trained for three years. Naruto is just catching up with his Hawk self. Snake Sasuke peaked out in which Naruto is catching up with. Sasuke has sooo much potential left.

For naruto he going to peek out. Whats left after unlimited chakra increased speed, strength and durability and keeping to your style. He about to learn a fighting style. But Sasuke on the other hand

He still can get better in Genjutsu, MS jutsu, that jutsu he was about to show before Orochimaru stopped him. Then after that He can still get EMS. And advance in that. Sasuke still has along way before he peaks out.


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## N120 (Oct 1, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Nin: Sasuke  Tai: Sasuke  Gen: Sasuke   Int: Sasuke  Str: Naruto   Spd: Sasuke   Sta: Naruto  Seal: Sasuke
> 
> My guess on how it is MS and Senjutsu included.



how does sasuke beat HM naruto in speed/taijutsu? i mostly agree with the rest though, but for ninjutsu i'll say naruto is equal, he has less but of much higher quality aswell as having the elemental advantage.


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## The Hand of God (Oct 1, 2008)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Alright, I repped you because that was funny.



and here i thought it was a mistake on your part



> Although I will say that your comments are going a bit to far and you're arent really getting anyone to point towards your side for that but keep trying. Itachi's power will be used to break the power he gave to Sasuke. They negate each other. It'll be an anti-MS. Even so Naruto's power from Itachi will cancel what he gave Sasuke. I don't think that's even one of the things I need to think about considering we all know exactly what it'll be used for.
> 
> Either way you're getting a bad start on being the type of Sasuke fan you are. Go ahead and change and perhaps people will take you seriously.
> 
> I stick to what I said. Afrer this training I highly doubt Sasuke will be beating Naruto like tons assume he will. Keep holding onto that.




On the contrary. Everyone here is thinking how Naruto is going to surpass Sasuke in everything!  Make a poll if you don't believe me.

The fact is that if Naruto come close to Sasuke, it will be only due to Itachi giving him an Uchiha powers. I bet you and most will hate that since you all hate the sharingan powers, since its destroys your philosophy about a hardworker beting the shit of a genius without power ups.


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## Nuzents (Oct 1, 2008)

Absolute Zero said:


> Ah, gotcha.
> 
> I wonder how fast Naruto could get through the Forest of Death at this point.



man, I really want to see Naruto and Sasuke in the chunnin exams.  I mean, fastforward and they are friends/rivals again, and they are just fucking around with the other contestants...


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## Gary (Oct 1, 2008)

I'm saying sasuke, though that's only cause he has that one shot kills.


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## Csdabest (Oct 1, 2008)

N120 said:


> how does sasuke beat HM naruto in speed/taijutsu? i mostly agree with the rest though, but for ninjutsu i'll say naruto is equal, he has less but of much higher quality aswell as having the elemental advantage.



Sasuke is still higher than ANruto in speed by a full point. Ontop of that Has the fastest shunshin that makes akatasuki piss their paints. And Sharingan+Shunshin+highspeed reflexes=godlike speed acording to kishi.

Sage is just a boost in speed it wont make him all super fast. I dont know where you all are getting this. Also pure power doesnt equal taijutsu. I respectively gave Naruto the strength department. Sharingan boost taijutsu skills predicting them left and right. And I feel Sasuke has gotten faster stronger and better taijutsu skills from that itachi fight. Cuz the way hachibi was fighting. Sasuke moves sort of looked like something Itachi would do.

Also. Sasuke still trumps Naruto in ninjutsu Even current Stats he does.  Sasuke has a greater range. And has the advantage over naruto in elemental affinity. Fire>>Wind. and Kirin is still the strongest elemental attack along with Amaterasu. But kirin is just on a completely different scale


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 1, 2008)

sasuke doesn't need more training... he needs a bijuu and ems... and thats pretty much it...

but looks like he might get a few new jutsu out of this whole cloud affair


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Oct 1, 2008)

The Hand of God said:


> On the contrary. Everyone here is thinking how Naruto is going to surpass Sasuke in everything!  Make a poll if you don't believe me.
> 
> The fact is that if Naruto come close to Sasuke, it will be only due to Itachi giving him an Uchiha powers. I bet you and most will hate that since you all hate the sharingan powers, since its destroys your philosophy about a hardworker beting the shit of a genius without power ups.


That's false. That doesn't have anything to do with whatever Naruto has in his arsenal at all and that'll mainly allow him to compete with Sasuke up to the very end. Hell I don't hate it and that's mainly because Naruto got a gift from Itachi and so did Sasuke from Itachi. I don't care if it's from an Uchiha, look at my avatar for clarification. It'll just be negation activated. Who cares if Sasuke's an Uchiha, he was given a gift by his brother to Naruto and the same for him. Both were given gifts and regardless how you personally view it that's it. If anything I'm sure Naruto will atleast hold one jutsu back simply because of it's power and I'm sure he wouldn't want whatever hell jutsu he's using to defeat Akatsuki to be used on Sasuke. He's still working on it and considering Minato left it behind for Naruto for whatever I'm sure it's not used on Sasuke. 

On the peaking issue I want someone to answer this for me but this is after I say a line or two. 

Sasuke's close to peak than Naruto right now. He doesn't have as much options as Naruto does. 

Also according to Itachi and the databook, also according to what we've seen in the series, every MS has their own individual jutsu. They have a Ninjutsu, a Genjutsu and then a god jutsu. Itachi's were Amaterasu Genjutsu and the god jutsu Susanoo. Sasuke's are Amaterasu (only because Itachi gave it to him so that's not technically his original MS jutsu), his own original Ninjutsu, his Genjutsu (possibly what he used on Killer Bee n par with Tsukiyomi) and soon a god jutsu. Either way he'll have 4 different jutsu to work on and get better with. At the same time his eyes are getting worse and worse and his potential is definately decreasing. Besides that Sasuke can increase his base mode. He might get the EMS but it'll come with a few skills too. 

Now someone explain to me how the hell is Naruto peaking and Sasuke isn't? It's definately the other way around here. 

And again where are these comments about Naruto peaking coming from? Naruto can do a lot before he peaks out. If anything this just gives him more potential considering not only will he have a chance to increase his base mode but he can also increase how powerful he is in Sennin Mode too. He still needs to master Toad Kumite, still needs to finish his new "that jutsu" in base mode rather than Sennin mode, still needs to complete the 100% FRS in base mode if he can't do it, increased Fuuton usage. There's a lot of area Naruto can cover before he peaks out. To much actually. If you want to get further into it he needs to master the original "that jutsu", get the toad key and master whatever else is left in it. Beyond that he needs to increase his base mode all in all too overall rather than going into Sennin Mode. Beyond that Naruto can also learn to control Kyuubi's chakra more rather than going tailed mode too. Is that peaking? Definately definately not. Basically Naruto has his own chakra, Kyuubi's chakra and Senjutsu chakra he can work on to improve beyond that. He can learn to improve his base, Sennin Mode and all he has. 

Where is this "Naruto is about to peak" stuff coming from? Do people really think that Sennin Naruto is base Naruto in his ultimate form in all attibutes? Going by that logic a 13 year old Naruto in Sennin Mode is as fast, strong, defensive and overall powerful compared to a 16 year old in Sennin Mode Naruto sand the Fuutons and jutsu. We all know this isn't true. Sennin Mode Naruto is a powered up version of base Naruto. It isn't Naruto's maximum potential in each area put into one controlled form. 

Someone explain to me how Naruto's peaking and Sasuke isn't? If anything, if anything mind you, it's definately the other way around here. 

--------------

Finally on Senjutsu increasing Naruto's stats. Naruto's speed will increase in comparison to his physical strength. Sennin chakra is just stronger chakra and we know how chakra works. I don't need to get into it but I've created a thread on it in the past and it's safe to say that if Naruto was physical that strong without mastering Senjutsu to this level he'll be stronger and speed-wise he'll be faster. Besides, people worry to much. Naruto's been faster than Sasuke in forms before. The Sharingan will just negate the speed. It doesn't make sense. Also going by that people assume that Naruto can't be faster than Sasuke. It happened before in KN and it'll happen again this way. If he's not he could use more Senjutsu chakra to become faster. Either way it's likely to happen again and the same with physical strength and a lot of other areas. It would make sense to record to what Senjutsu is. It would be foolish to increase Sasuke's skills even higher so he can compete with Sennin Naruto rather than having him use his Sharingan and other skills greater to make up the difference.


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## N120 (Oct 1, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Sasuke is still higher than ANruto in speed by a full point. Ontop of that Has the fastest shunshin that makes akatasuki piss their paints. And Sharingan+Shunshin+highspeed reflexes=godlike speed acording to kishi.
> 
> Sage is just a boost in speed it wont make him all super fast. I dont know where you all are getting this. Also pure power doesnt equal taijutsu. I respectively gave Naruto the strength department. Sharingan boost taijutsu skills predicting them left and right. And I feel Sasuke has gotten faster stronger and better taijutsu skills from that itachi fight. Cuz the way hachibi was fighting. Sasuke moves sort of looked like something Itachi would do.
> 
> Also. Sasuke still trumps Naruto in ninjutsu Even current Stats he does.  Sasuke has a greater range. And has the advantage over naruto in elemental affinity. Fire>>Wind. and Kirin is still the strongest elemental attack along with Amaterasu. But kirin is just on a completely different scale



but last weaks chapter clearly showes naruto durability, which can be applied during taijutsu.
 also the fact that naruto is training with new taijustu style to utilise his increased power/strength and speed better, also means he has advantage here over sasuke.

as for ninjutsu, its true katon> fuuton and kirin is a powerful attack. but narutos jutsus are just as powerful if not more and he can dish em out one after the other unlike sasuke.

KB > Amaterasu, theres only so many targets sasuke can aim at before his eyes start to hurt.

Senjutsu speed/power > sharingan prediction.

Fuuton>raiton, FRS > any katon jutsu shown thus far except amaterasu (since its more powerful)

Oodoma rasengan> Chidori

and we have that jutsu x 3 + itachis power-up.

hm+kyuubi = regeneration at a crazy speed.

even so, ive only said naruto is equal to sasuke in that department as a direct hit from either opponent is guranteed death.


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## ソラのシン-사마 (Oct 2, 2008)

the box said:


> right now naruto
> 
> he has strength , speed, stamina, unlimited chakra, stronger jutsu, extrem endurence, and thats just the tip he hasent even gotten the key training yet.



And he hasn't gotten Toad kung fu yet. And has a new jutsu. And still needs to improve his original FRS. 

OH and will soon have sage jutsu. Similar to Jiraiya's. Maybe the fire toad belly summon; stuff like that. 


//uZn


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## The Hand of God (Oct 2, 2008)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> That's false. That doesn't have anything to do with whatever Naruto has in his arsenal at all and that'll mainly allow him to compete with Sasuke up to the very end. Hell I don't hate it and that's mainly because Naruto got a gift from Itachi and so did Sasuke from Itachi. I don't care if it's from an Uchiha, look at my avatar for clarification. It'll just be negation activated. Who cares if Sasuke's an Uchiha, he was given a gift by his brother to Naruto and the same for him. Both were given gifts and regardless how you personally view it that's it. If anything I'm sure Naruto will atleast hold one jutsu back simply because of it's power and I'm sure he wouldn't want whatever hell jutsu he's using to defeat Akatsuki to be used on Sasuke. He's still working on it and considering Minato left it behind for Naruto for whatever I'm sure it's not used on Sasuke.
> s
> On the peaking issue I want someone to answer this for me but this is after I say a line or two.
> 
> Sasuke's close to peak than Naruto right now. He doesn't have as much options as Naruto does.



How come people say Sasuke is at his prime, but when Mianto died (he was 26-30 years old) said that i was a shame because he hasn't reach his peak.



> Also according to Itachi and the databook, also according to what we've seen in the series, every MS has their own individual jutsu. They have a Ninjutsu, a Genjutsu and then a god jutsu. Itachi's were Amaterasu Genjutsu and the god jutsu Susanoo. Sasuke's are Amaterasu (only because Itachi gave it to him so that's not technically his original MS jutsu), his own original Ninjutsu, his Genjutsu (possibly what he used on Killer Bee n par with Tsukiyomi) and soon a god jutsu. Either way he'll have 4 different jutsu to work on and get better with. At the same time his eyes are getting worse and worse and his potential is definately decreasing. Besides that Sasuke can increase his base mode. He might get the EMS but it'll come with a few skills too.



He will get Itachi's MS, which will grant him the EMS and gice him 6 MS and a possibly 7 is he can discover the final secret of the sharingan which Madara did. Its only a matter of time. Meaning that Sasuke's power/potencial won't decrease but increase.



> Now someone explain to me how the hell is Naruto peaking and Sasuke isn't? It's definately the other way around here.



You have it the other way around. Everyone is saying that Sasuke is done for, that he can't increase his power.

There is no doubt that there is space fro Naruto to improve but so there is for Sasuke.



> And again where are these comments about Naruto peaking coming from? Naruto can do a lot before he peaks out. If anything this just gives him more potential considering not only will he have a chance to increase his base mode but he can also increase how powerful he is in Sennin Mode too. He still needs to master Toad Kumite, still needs to finish his new "that jutsu" in base mode rather than Sennin mode, still needs to complete the 100% FRS in base mode if he can't do it, increased Fuuton usage.



that new jutsu is nothing new, its the completion of FRS.
and Naruto's "that jutsu" was nothing more than 4 Kyuubi tails.



> There's a lot of area Naruto can cover before he peaks out. To much actually. If you want to get further into it he needs to master the original "that jutsu", get the toad key and master whatever else is left in it. Beyond that he needs to increase his base mode all in all too overall rather than going into Sennin Mode. Beyond that Naruto can also learn to control Kyuubi's chakra more rather than going tailed mode too. Is that peaking? Definately definately not. Basically Naruto has his own chakra, Kyuubi's chakra and Senjutsu chakra he can work on to improve beyond that. He can learn to improve his base, Sennin Mode and all he has.
> 
> Where is this "Naruto is about to peak" stuff coming from? Do people really think that Sennin Naruto is base Naruto in his ultimate form in all attibutes? Going by that logic a 13 year old Naruto in Sennin Mode is as fast, strong, defensive and overall powerful compared to a 16 year old in Sennin Mode Naruto sand the Fuutons and jutsu. We all know this isn't true. Sennin Mode Naruto is a powered up version of base Naruto. It isn't Naruto's maximum potential in each area put into one controlled form.



to thell you the truth, i don't know where you have been hearing Naruto has reached his peak, because during this past week, all i keep hearing is how sasuke has reached his peak.



> Someone explain to me how Naruto's peaking and Sasuke isn't? If anything, if anything mind you, it's definately the other way around here.



I Go both ways. Sasuke canlearn more jutsus. Copy more jutsus. Master more affinities. He has the talent to do things was thought impossible, Kirin is an example of that.  He can start focusing on the fire chakra. Discover more of the sharingan's powers, even his own cursed chakra. etc,. 



> Finally on Senjutsu increasing Naruto's stats. Naruto's speed will increase in comparison to his physical strength. Sennin chakra is just stronger chakra and we know how chakra works.



Just to remind you that sasuke also has a special chakra. A chakra more sinister than Kyuubi. Even Kabuto has talked about it, even Maadra brought it up, how Uchiha had a high caliber chakra, and its one of the "reasons" he has lived this long.



> I don't need to get into it but I've created a thread on it in the past and it's safe to say that if Naruto was physical that strong without mastering Senjutsu to this level he'll be stronger and speed-wise he'll be faster. Besides, people worry to much. Naruto's been faster than Sasuke in forms before. The Sharingan will just negate the speed. It doesn't make sense. Also going by that people assume that Naruto can't be faster than Sasuke. It happened before in KN and it'll happen again this way. If he's not he could use more Senjutsu chakra to become faster.



Sasuke has been described as having godlike speed. You know that because you read his bio.



> Either way it's likely to happen again and the same with physical strength and a lot of other areas. It would make sense to record to what Senjutsu is. It would be foolish to increase Sasuke's skills even higher so he can compete with Sennin Naruto rather than having him use his Sharingan and other skills greater to make up the difference.



Sasuke is just not about the sharingan, even Zetsu mentioned.


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## Gary (Oct 2, 2008)

RaptorJesusDesu said:


> Sage KB > All MS skills Sasuke has except Susano'o, if he even has that.
> 
> Naruto wins.
> 
> ...



No, sasuke one shoot the 8 tails, with that fire one.
that's stronger then almost all of narutos attacks


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## SumDumGai (Oct 2, 2008)

This fight is like Shodai Hokage Vs.  Uchiha Madara  +1.  Kakashi prophesized this correctly.

Naruto using Sage Arts and Kyuubi = Nature
Shodai using Mokuten and Bijuu pets = Nature

Now both Sasuke and Madara are using Mangekyou Sharingan that they aquired someway or another by killing their brother.  

The only difference here is that Madara also used Kyuubi, but Sasuke could possibly do the same? or he could use the 8tails and truly walk in Madara's footsteps, but i doubt that.


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## Csdabest (Oct 2, 2008)

N120 said:


> but last weaks chapter clearly showes naruto durability, which can be applied during taijutsu.
> also the fact that naruto is training with new taijustu style to utilise his increased power/strength and speed better, also means he has advantage here over sasuke.
> 
> as for ninjutsu, its true katon> fuuton and kirin is a powerful attack. but narutos jutsus are just as powerful if not more and he can dish em out one after the other unlike sasuke.
> ...



Sasuke Regular Speed>=Senjutsu Speed
Sasuke Shunshin>>>>>>Senjutsu Speed

Speed+Sword=KB

Chidori Variants>>>Odama Rasengan

HM+Kyuubi Regeneration<Amaterasu or Kirn

Amaterasu or Kirin=FRS

MS>Kyuubi

Naruto is going to beat Sasuke through sheer will power. On paper Sasuke will beat Naruto ass w/o kishi wrighting. But Will of kishi will of fire, and just plain will power. Naruto will beat Sasuke.

You know why Naruto is even getting sage mode and why its being said to increase speed and strength. So Naruto can be on par.  With Sasuke normal stats or atleast close. naruto is lacking in so many areas rigth now its not funny. I doubt he coukld have beaten kimimaro before senjutsu. But even after Senjutsu. Sasuke still going to be stronger jutsu and stat wise


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## N120 (Oct 2, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Sasuke Regular Speed>=Senjutsu Speed
> Sasuke Shunshin>>>>>>Senjutsu Speed
> 
> Speed+Sword=KB
> ...



Speed:HM Naruto= or > base hachibi > regular sasuke.
         HM sunshin > sasuke sunshin.

         HM Speed+kunai > Sasuke and his sword.
         fuuton+rasengan > any chidori varients.
       Hm+Kyuubi+itachi crow > amaterasu/MS and kirin 
*Spoiler*: __ 



(read spoiler )




 all that + new jutsus narutos working on.

 naruto > sasuke both on paper and plot.


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## Csdabest (Oct 2, 2008)

N120 said:


> Speed:HM Naruto= or > base hachibi > regular sasuke.
> HM sunshin > sasuke sunshin.
> 
> HM Speed+kunai > Sasuke and his sword.
> ...



*Facepalm* This argument will go nowhere cuz that was full of soo much fail.

Naruto Charges w/ Futon Rasengan. Sasuke hops back and throws Chidori Senbons hits Naruto kknee. Naruto falls on his own rasengan

Naruto gets within ten meters of Sasuke. Chidori Negashi. Narutos on his face again

Chidori+Kusangi>>>>>>>>Kunai. Raiton has been said it boost a swords properties to its liomit cuz lightning amplifies metal. Yammato knows this best

Sasuke will still be faster. more skilled and see everything coming at him cuz Sasuke has his sharingan.

Your saying HM will give Naruto godlike spoeed. Thats a joke. Pain isnt even that fast and didnt have anyproblems keeping with w/ Sage mode. and Jiraya is on the same tier level as Sasuke. naruto is down an entire tier level. and you think its going toput it over Sasukes speed. Joke. Naruto speed 3.5 Naruto speed w. HM 4.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Oct 2, 2008)

The Hand of God said:


> How come people say Sasuke is at his prime, but when Mianto died (he was 26-30 years old) said that i was a shame because he hasn't reach his peak.



Where did I say Sasuke's hit his prime. I said he's closer to his peak than Naruto right now and so far I've given examples why. You didn't understand what I stated. I didn't say he's reached his prime, I just said compared to Naruto he's closer. 


> He will get Itachi's MS, which will grant him the EMS and gice him 6 MS and a possibly 7 is he can discover the final secret of the sharingan which Madara did. Its only a matter of time. Meaning that Sasuke's power/potencial won't decrease but increase.


That is if he gets the MS and at the same time with that most of those jutsu will be the same level. I'm positive Sasuke's MS jutsu will either be stronger than Itachi's or rather equal. Just because you have a large amount of skills doesn't mean that you're weaker because of it.


> You have it the other way around. Everyone is saying that Sasuke is done for, that he can't increase his power.
> 
> There is no doubt that there is space fro Naruto to improve but so there is for Sasuke.


What does this have to do with that I said? Am I everyone or are you picking on random people simply because you're saying that one group is the same as the others? Naruto can improve and so can Sasuke but Naruto has more options than Sasuke does. No it doesn't mean they are close to their peak, no it doesn't mean that Naruto's peak is far ahead of Sasuke but it means that they both can improve. 





> that new jutsu is nothing new, its the completion of FRS.
> and Naruto's "that jutsu" was nothing more than 4 Kyuubi tails.


There's been confirmation and it wasn't 4-tails at all. Did you even read the chapter where Jiraiya was talking with the scroll toad? You see people often misunderstand this. Jiraiya stated over the timeskip they were training Naruto to learn the jutsu Minato left behind and because they were using the key Kyuubi's chakra it overload and KN4 came out as a result. It was a mistake in learning the jutsu. That jutsu isn't KN4. KN4 is a mistake. The training to learn that jutsu, which causes a lot of chakra apparently, and playing with KN chakra caused a problem. It isn't KN4. 

Also the new jutsu isn't confirmed to be the completed FRS so we can't say anything to that this moment. 


> to thell you the truth, i don't know where you have been hearing Naruto has reached his peak, because during this past week, all i keep hearing is how sasuke has reached his peak.


The Deidara Fanclub - Art is a BANG!

It was in your own thread buddy.


> I Go both ways. Sasuke canlearn more jutsus. Copy more jutsus. Master more affinities. He has the talent to do things was thought impossible, Kirin is an example of that.  He can start focusing on the fire chakra. Discover more of the sharingan's powers, even his own cursed chakra. etc,.


Naruto's done things that are throught impossible and I don't recall there being a comment towards Kirin being impossible. I know the was for the FRS but not one for Kirin. He can do whatever, he can learn more jutsu, master different affinities I doubt it considering it's limited but he can learn more jutsu. Either way Naruto can do a lot too. 


> Just to remind you that sasuke also has a special chakra. A chakra more sinister than Kyuubi. Even Kabuto has talked about it, even Maadra brought it up, how Uchiha had a high caliber chakra, and its one of the "reasons" he has lived this long.


Don't bring that up with me because I know. The reason the chakra is so sinister is simply because he's able to control Bijuu and large animals. Not only did the demonstation explain it but the databook pretty much hinted at it. Now the special chakra was only mentioned in the beginning by Kabuto. Madara said that he lived that long is because of his chakra yes but don't make it as though Naruto's chakra isn't special. This boy's chakra has been mixing with a Bijuu's for over 16 years and also his chakra's so powerful it can actually hold it back. He also heals pretty fast and judging things we know it's special in it's own right. Even so I know about his chakra and I stick by my statement. 


> Sasuke has been described as having godlike speed. You know that because you read his bio.


Yeah I know that what? Databook also said Naruto's the main force of the next era you know? Databook also said that Naruto can become stronger than anyone in the manga. Your point? You've read his bio right? 



> Sasuke is just not about the sharingan, even Zetsu mentioned.


Naruto isn't all about Kyuubi as you know. This next training session emphasizes it. Either way Sharingan's Sasuke's main point. When you think about Sasuke it's always Sharingan before anything else. It's what he's about. With Naruto sure you think about Kyuubi but even with this we know Naruto's been trying to hold back on Kyuubi, I mean look at this training. He himself is more than Kyuuubi and even though Sasuke's more than Sharingan it's what he deals with, it's his lineage. Take Kyuubi from Naruto you still have Sennin Naruto. Take Sharingan from Sasuke and well, he gets a good deal weaker. Anyway there's still more we can say and I know what you mean but basically I'm saying that Sasuke's more reliant on Sharingan than Naruto on Kyuubi.


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## N120 (Oct 2, 2008)

HM naruto uses fuuton, while running at sasuke with FRS, Sasuke fires off a few chidori senbons, they fail to bypass the fuuton around both the attack and naruto. naruto connects , sasuke dies.

i think your confused with hm enhancement, regular naruto can't lift a huge rock statue but once senjutsu is applied his strength is mulitplies 10 folds not just half a bar.

regular naruto cannot sustain heavy attacks, yet HM naruto didnt get hurt when he fell. 

its like sasuke without sharingan cant predict shit, yet ms enhances his visibility,prediction mulitple times over regular sight.

naruto > sasuke.


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## Csdabest (Oct 2, 2008)

N120 said:


> HM naruto uses fuuton, while running at sasuke with FRS, Sasuke fires off a few chidori senbons, they fail to bypass the fuuton around both the attack and naruto. naruto connects , sasuke dies.
> 
> i think your confused with hm enhancement, regular naruto can't lift a huge rock statue but once senjutsu is applied his strength is mulitplies 10 folds not just half a bar.
> 
> ...




Naruto fails cuz it doesnt sheild his whole body. And Sasuke has godlike accuracy against high speed moving targets

Thats strength Not speed. And It seems that strength. and Jiraya speed didnt increase all godlike like your making it out to be. Strength is alot easier to increase than speed. Yes his speed has increased but not that much. 

Naruto got hurt. Just not that much. His pain tolerence has increased. That doesn't mean he isn't taking damage. Jiraya got his arm ripped out and was stating it didnt hurt or basically that it was nothing. So yeah. he still taking damage is just not hurting as much

Sasuke can fight w/o the Sharingan as well. Just it isnt recommened. Sasuke was able to pull of some amazing sword skills w.o it on hurt. W/ it on Sasuke can predict an opponent next move accurately and see high speed movements.


Sasuke>>>Naruto. On paper. It wouldn't make much of a fight if the good guy was soo much stronger than the bad guy and had to win. Sasuke will still be stronger.


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## JPongo (Oct 2, 2008)

Naruto will stomp Sasuke later AFTER stomping on Pain.

Kishi needs to have Naruto fresh for the encounter unlike previous times, which made Naruto seem more below Sasuke, which he really is not.


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## Cinna (Oct 2, 2008)

naruto will be able to draw sharka out of thin air. so NARUTO!


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## N120 (Oct 2, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Naruto fails cuz it doesnt sheild his whole body. And Sasuke has godlike accuracy against high speed moving targets
> 
> Thats strength Not speed. And It seems that strength. and Jiraya speed didnt increase all godlike like your making it out to be. Strength is alot easier to increase than speed. Yes his speed has increased but not that much.
> 
> ...



1. sasuke doesnt have god-like accuracy against fast moving targets,Lee proved it,Itachi proved it and now hachibi proves it.

2. nowhere in the manga has it been said that senjutsu strengthens ones body! but it does clearly state that it enhances every aspect of a ninja, that means ninjutsu,taijutsu,genjutsu aswell as the bodies capabilities.

3. of course he's taking damage, but under senjutsu his body is hardened and protects him from the impact, else fukusaku wouldve caught him again like last time! 
 if we were to take your argument, then that'd mean his body wouldve been compltelt fucked up....but he doesnt feel pain so its alright? doesnt make sense.

4. manga page? sasuke has never predicted shit w/out sharingan since normal eyesight doesnt allow such things. what your hyping are his reflexes and manouverbility, But that kind of reflex can only do so much! it is useless if your opponent is faster than you are or stronger than you are.

 MS sasuke as good as he may be, isnt that great in comparsion to top tier fighters like hachibi and co, and HM naruto fits into that elite catagory.

 dont take this the wrong, amaterasu can kill HM Naruto, kirin too but if naruto doesnt allow the time for kirin and can manage to avoid amaterasu then sasuke is pretty much finished, and thats the outcome w/out counting narutos own arsenal of jutsus : FRS, that jutsu X 3 and fuuton jutsu, aswell as his new taijutsu style.


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## Teach (Oct 2, 2008)

The poll tells us who is the #1.


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## Gary (Oct 2, 2008)

> unlimited chakra,




When was this The box.


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## Sαge (Oct 2, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> *Facepalm* This argument will go nowhere cuz that was full of soo much fail.
> 
> Naruto Charges w/ Futon Rasengan. Sasuke hops back and throws Chidori Senbons hits Naruto kknee. Naruto falls on his own rasengan
> 
> ...



Nice fanfic   

Anyways, Sasuke has shown nothing that proves he could survive a clash against naruto. After Sasuke lost CS, his stamina, strength, and speed have dropped. Hachibi made him look chuunin lvl and he wasn't even trying. The only thing Sasuke has going for him ATM, is MS.
And we all know Kyuubi+Itachi's crow will help Naruto with that.


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## Nezo (Oct 2, 2008)

Christ, it's simple logic. The manga is called Naruto, and Sasuke will NEVER be able to beat Naruto again. Sorry, Sasuke-fans, but that's the harsh reality. Sasuke had his moment when Naruto needed to lose.


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## Enclave (Oct 2, 2008)

While I suspect Sage Naruto will quite possibly be beyond MS Sasuke I really cannot say until we actually see Naruto in action.


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## Espada dupe (Oct 2, 2008)

Naruto isn't finished yet, so I'd say Sasuke. Besides we don't know what power Sasuke recently gained. That and I'd say they will be about equal when Naruto's done.


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## daterza (Oct 2, 2008)

am I the only hoping that naruto gets a second element, like water, in order to counter sasuke`s lightning and fire?


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## The Hand of God (Oct 2, 2008)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Where did I say Sasuke's hit his prime. I said he's closer to his peak than Naruto right now and so far I've given examples why. You didn't understand what I stated. I didn't say he's reached his prime, I just said compared to Naruto he's closer.



again, Sasuke is no way near his peak, just like Naruto. Last time i remember, both had the same potential in the stats.



> That is if he gets the MS and at the same time with that most of those jutsu will be the same level. I'm positive Sasuke's MS jutsu will either be stronger than Itachi's or rather equal. Just because you have a large amount of skills doesn't mean that you're weaker because of it.



He will get it since Sasuke is already feeling the after effects of MS.  Although Madara did hide Itachi's body even though Sasuke told him he don't need it, Madara knows Sasuke will want those eyes soon. It doesn't matter if they are on the same level or above, as all MS jutsu are above S class level, something we can't say about Naruto.



> What does this have to do with that I said? Am I everyone or are you picking on random people simply because you're saying that one group is the same as the others? Naruto can improve and so can Sasuke but Naruto has more options than Sasuke does. No it doesn't mean they are close to their peak, no it doesn't mean that Naruto's peak is far ahead of Sasuke but it means that they both can improve.



Sasuke has the same options for improvement.

Itachi MS
EMS (FINAL JUTSU)
Learn more about his Uchiha chakra
More affinities
Copy more jutsus around the world
Continue raising his basic stats




> There's been confirmation and it wasn't 4-tails at all. Did you even read the chapter where Jiraiya was talking with the scroll toad? You see people often misunderstand this. Jiraiya stated over the timeskip they were training Naruto to learn the jutsu Minato left behind and because they were using the key Kyuubi's chakra it overload and KN4 came out as a result. It was a mistake in learning the jutsu. That jutsu isn't KN4. KN4 is a mistake. The training to learn that jutsu, which causes a lot of chakra apparently, and playing with KN chakra caused a problem. It isn't KN4.



I will give you that



> Also the new jutsu isn't confirmed to be the completed FRS so we can't say anything to that this moment.



It is, because Naruto doens't come up with new jutsus out of his ass. He also had someone telling him what to do. You can bet anything that, that new jutsu is nothing but the completion of FRS.



> insane111
> 
> It was in your own thread buddy.



then, he must be the first to say it because that i first for me.



> Naruto's done things that are throught impossible and I don't recall there being a comment towards Kirin being impossible. I know the was for the FRS but not one for Kirin.




Zetsu:* "At any rate, its gonna be on a completely different scale from what normal humans can normally produce with their own charka nature manipulation"* 




> He can do whatever, he can learn more jutsu, master different affinities I doubt it considering it's limited but he can learn more jutsu. Either way Naruto can do a lot too.



But not at the rate Sasuke can. He has more variety of jutsus than Naruto. Hell, he already had two affinities by the age of 13, when in fact, Jounins are the ones associated with having two affinities.



> Don't bring that up with me because I know. The reason the chakra is so sinister is simply because he's able to control Bijuu and large animals. Not only did the demonstation explain it but the databook pretty much hinted at it. Now the special chakra was only mentioned in the beginning by Kabuto. Madara said that he lived that long is because of his chakra yes but don't make it as though Naruto's chakra isn't special. This boy's chakra has been mixing with a Bijuu's for over 16 years and also his chakra's so powerful it can actually hold it back. He also heals pretty fast and judging things we know it's special in it's own right. Even so I know about his chakra and I stick by my statement.



I didn't say that Naruto'a chakra isn't special, but that Sasuke has a special chakra too.



> Yeah I know that what? Databook also said Naruto's the main force of the next era you know?



Main force doesn't mean, fastest shinobi or as fast as Sasuke.



> Databook also said that Naruto can become stronger than anyone in the manga. Your point? You've read his bio right?



You do know that Sasuke's goal isn't to become the strongest, right? Because if that was his case, the databook would have said the same.



> Naruto isn't all about Kyuubi as you know. This next training session emphasizes it. Either way Sharingan's Sasuke's main point. When you think about Sasuke it's always Sharingan before anything else. It's what he's about. With Naruto sure you think about Kyuubi but even with this we know Naruto's been trying to hold back on Kyuubi, I mean look at this training. He himself is more than Kyuuubi and even though Sasuke's more than Sharingan it's what he deals with, it's his lineage. Take Kyuubi from Naruto you still have Sennin Naruto. Take Sharingan from Sasuke and well, he gets a good deal weaker. Anyway there's still more we can say and I know what you mean but basically I'm saying that Sasuke's more reliant on Sharingan than Naruto on Kyuubi.



I disagree. Naruto's answer for everything has been the Kyuubi, even in training. The is like Sasuke CS is cheap, Kyuubi is not debates.


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## BlueDemon (Oct 2, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Sasuke Regular Speed>=Senjutsu Speed
> Sasuke Shunshin>>>>>>Senjutsu Speed
> 
> Speed+Sword=KB
> ...



And you wanna say Sasuke could have beaten Kimmimaro,when even Gaara and Rock Lee couldn?t?(I?m just asking...)

And wher do you know how fast can he be in Senjutsu mode? (if it was shown in Jiraya?s fight and I forgot then I apologize for the question...)
If Naruto ain?t dumb (oh yeah...xD) he won?t let his Kyuubi get sealed again (and I think he can use his chakra with him "active" or not if you know what I mean)

I could list some other things now but it seems some other people already replied (and if he completed his Fuuton Rasengan,Sasuke is fried --- i know I exaggerated  )


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## Enclave (Oct 2, 2008)

The Hand of God said:


> It doesn't matter if they are on the same level or above, as all MS jutsu are above S class level, something we can't say about Naruto.



I'm going to need a scan to confirm that all MS jutsu are beyond S-Rank.  After all, the only jutsu in the manga that have been suggested to possibly be beyond S-Rank are Fuuton: Rasengan (and thus also the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken both of which are most certainly not even the slighest bit related to the Sharingan).


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## Shishi-O (Oct 2, 2008)

kevsin said:


> who you reckon is stronger at this sort of time?



naruto has always been stronger.

remove the 4 gimps before u post this thread


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## geist101 (Oct 2, 2008)

i'd have to go with naruto because he is actually training and perfecting his move, while sasuke as it seems looks like he cant fully control his mangekyo yet


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## The Hand of God (Oct 2, 2008)

Enclave said:


> I'm going to need a scan to confirm that all MS jutsu are beyond S-Rank.  After all, the only jutsu in the manga that have been suggested to possibly be beyond S-Rank are Fuuton: Rasengan (and thus also the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken both of which are most certainly not even the slighest bit related to the Sharingan).



Madara's teleportation is a superior jutsus than Hiraishin and Hiraishin was classified as an S rank Jutsu.

Amaterasu is stated in both manga and databook, to be the strongest ninjutsu. (NOT FRS)

Tsykuyomi is stated in both manga and databook, to be the strongest genjutsu.

Susanoo, is a sealing jutsu superior to Minato's Shiki Fuujin.

All MS jutsus are unclassified. Basically, they are on a league on their own.


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## Sasuke_fanboy (Oct 2, 2008)

what the fuck is this bullshit.

pitting a mere mortal like Naruto against a God like Sasuke sama? are u people insane. Naruto should only fight against weak guys like Pein. The Uchiha are too godly for a scrub like Naruto.


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## Ninja Shadow Warrior (Oct 2, 2008)

daterza said:


> At the moment I think the sauce would win simply because he has had more serious battles than naruto up to now.



I half agree with you. Sasuke has had MORE battles, but to say he has had more serious battles is a way over statement. Although having more fights under his belt, Sasuke might be meeting his match.


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## Fuyuu Hidarite (Oct 2, 2008)

Well, Naruto?s improvement with HM is an overall powerup on all his stadistics. On the other hand, Sasuke?s Amaterasu is unavoidable (it hits, whenever you can escape using some kind of kawarimi), and his genjutsu is simply awesome. Still, Naruto has Kyuubi backing him, and if he?s using HM his resistance to genjutsu will improve, along with his power to escape it. Sasuke still has elemental advantage with fire, but I?m sure that problem will be solved in the near future. I mean, everything Naruto has to do is create a greater wind jutsu than Sasuke. 
I think Naruto is more advanced right now, but we?ll have to confirm it. Sasuke has improved a lot in the latest year with all that MS transfer and all.
Naruto.


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## Federer (Oct 2, 2008)

Sage Naruto doesn't have any feats, this thread is pointless. For now it's Sasuke, till Naruto shows us some feats and learn some JUTSUS!!!


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## Enclave (Oct 2, 2008)

The Hand of God said:


> Madara's teleportation is a superior jutsus than Hiraishin and Hiraishin was classified as an S rank Jutsu.
> 
> Amaterasu is stated in both manga and databook, to be the strongest ninjutsu. (NOT FRS)
> 
> ...



Not all S-Rank are created equal so obviously your Hirashin example doesn't work.

Also, what evidence do you have that Susanoo is superior to Shiki Fuujin?

Also in response to Amaterasu being said to be the strongest ninjutsu:



> Fuuton: RasenShuriken
> 
> User: Naruto
> S
> ...



So which is it?  How can FRS be the ultimate one if it's not the strongest?  Just like how can Amaterasu be the strongest if it isn't the ultimate one?

Remember, the Databooks are full of contradictory information and nothing in it should be taken so seriously as to be used in an argument like this.


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## TrueSalvation (Oct 2, 2008)

Considering we have yet to see Naruto use sage mode in battle its hard to determine what his capabilities and abilities are. Sasuke has already had numerous fights to showcase his strengths and feats so hes proven his merit as a shinobi. Though he isn't skilled with his MS on the levels of someone such as Itachi, he does excel in other aspects of fighting. If both were to go head one on one, it would be a hard fought battle and pretty even since both are top tier fighters, and the outcome of the fight would depend on who has the stronger motivation to win out in the end. The person with the strongest determination and drive would end up winning the fight (Will of Fire). Though the one setback that Naruto has is the intent to kill in which I believe Sasuke wouldn't hesitate to do if it came down to winning the fight. That's the one thing I think that holds back Naruto from using his full ablilites if he was to go up against Sasuke.


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## Binary (Oct 2, 2008)

Naruto.

Yes.


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## -Maya- (Oct 2, 2008)

Sabakukyu said:


> Sage Naruto doesn't have any feats, this thread is pointless. For now it's Sasuke, till Naruto shows us some feats and learn some JUTSUS!!!



No we have seen enougth to make rougth estimations

We saw in The Wave arc from Sasuke the speed Boost that Channeling Chakra to your legs Provides we later saw another example from KN0 Naruto on two occasions

And the lifting of the Toad statue Showed us the difference in the Stat boost between the Channeling of normal chakra and the  Sage Chakra


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## Smok3d (Oct 2, 2008)

Naruto would win with his new jutsu Itachi gave him; spitting crows. He'll spit crows out and it'll give Sasuke flashbacks of Itachi, etc.. and Sasuke will be spooked and collapse.


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## grahf (Oct 2, 2008)

Speed wins. If naruto can dodge sasuke's kusanagi in an instant, then it would be an close battle. But i believe naruto's speed increase ue to his sage training. but naruto should have at least a knowledge on amaterasu so he won't be roasted. All he have to do is to created tons of bunshins to avoid sasuke from casting amaterasu. He has tons of chakra so he should be fine battling sasuke. I don't think FRS would work on naruto since sasuke will read it with his sharingan and make proper cautions or he could simply avoid it. kirin needs preparations together with the weather.
They are roughly equal imo.
>.< 
>.<


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## Federer (Oct 2, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> No we have seen enougth to make rougth estimations
> 
> We saw in The Wave arc from Sasuke the speed Boost that Channeling Chakra to your legs Provides we later saw another example from KN0 Naruto on two occasions
> 
> And the lifting of the Toad statue Showed us the difference in the Stat boost between the Channeling of normal chakra and the  Sage Chakra



We haven't seen Naruto "fight", for all we know, Itachi's "gift" is worthless against Sasuke, how would you react? Like this......

With lifting a statue, you don't win battles, I highly doubt that Sasuke showed us his every jutsu, for all we know he can pull an Edo Tensei, which is a fanfiction. 

All I'm saying is, without any *feats*, you can't make a comparison. But all I hope is that Naruto will punch some brains into Sasuke, and convince him to return.


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## Sasuke_fanboy (Oct 2, 2008)

Naruto will never surpass Sasuke sama.


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## -Maya- (Oct 2, 2008)

Sabakukyu said:


> We haven't seen Naruto "fight", for all we know, Itachi's "gift" is worthless against Sasuke, how would you react? Like this......
> 
> With lifting a statue, you don't win battles, I highly doubt that Sasuke showed us his every jutsu, for all we know he can pull an Edo Tensei, which is a fanfiction.
> 
> All I'm saying is, without any *feats*, you can't make a comparison. But all I hope is that Naruto will punch some brains into Sasuke, and convince him to return.



I make logical assumptions so you counter with Illogical assumptions?


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## Federer (Oct 2, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> I make logical assumptions so you counter with Illogical assumptions?



What's your point, anyway? Naruto has now more chakra, strength, speed and stamina. Where are his jutsus? Or his toad fighting style? We all know that Naruto is going to become the _strongest_, but we don't have feats yet, this thread is like saying TenTen will become one day an useful shinobi.  (and we all know, that's not gonna happen. )


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 2, 2008)

The Hand of God said:


> Madara's teleportation is a superior jutsus than Hiraishin and Hiraishin was classified as an S rank Jutsu.
> 
> Amaterasu is stated in both manga and databook, to be the strongest ninjutsu. (NOT FRS)
> 
> ...



Rly?Zetsu never seened FRS and yet the Databook says that FRS is the *ultimate ninjutsu*  Any brain dead monkey will realise that they are both equal lol



Sabakukyu said:


> What's your point, anyway? Naruto has now more chakra, strength, speed and stamina. Where are his jutsus? Or his toad fighting style? We all know that Naruto is going to become the _strongest_, but we don't have feats yet, this thread is like saying TenTen will become one day an useful shinobi.  (and we all know, that's not gonna happen. )



Umm,Naruto got HM,he can win through brute force alone DBZ style.


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## Enclave (Oct 2, 2008)

wiesmann said:


> Rly?Zetsu never seened FRS and yet the Databook says that FRS is the *ultimate ninjutsu*  Any brain dead monkey will realise that they are both equal lol



Actually, they're certainly not equal.  Due to the Fuuton: Rasengans shape maniuplation it by default is the only jutsu with the potential to be the most powerful jutsu ever created.  Remember, the sphere is the highest level of shape manipulation.  You'll notice that Amaterasu doesn't have a spherical shape and thus it's shape manipulation isn't on the level of any Rasengan's.

Basically, a completed Fuuton: Rasengan/Rasenshuriken would automatically be more powerful than Amaterasu.  Of course Amaterasu could very well win a clash thanks to having elemental superiority, but that's besides the point.

For instance, say somebody had created a Katon: Rasengan.  It would trump Amaterasu as the most powerful Katon.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 2, 2008)

Enclave said:


> Actually, they're certainly not equal.  Due to the Fuuton: Rasengans shape maniuplation it by default is the only jutsu with the potential to be the most powerful jutsu ever created.  Remember, the sphere is the highest level of shape manipulation.  You'll notice that Amaterasu doesn't have a spherical shape and thus it's shape manipulation isn't on the level of any Rasengan's.
> 
> Basically, a completed Fuuton: Rasengan/Rasenshuriken would automatically be more powerful than Amaterasu.  Of course Amaterasu could very well win a clash thanks to having elemental superiority, but that's besides the point.
> 
> For instance, say somebody had created a Katon: Rasengan.  It would trump Amaterasu as the most powerful Katon.



Spatial recomposition is more then creating a sphere,to quote the Databook:


> Keitai Henka (形態変化) (manipulation of shape/form)
> Keitai Henka manipulates the chakra form itself to create the "shape" of the ninjutsu and controls the power and area effect of the chakra. While Seishitsu Henka emphasizes and brings out the form of the chakra's elements, this particular technique is largely dependent on the user's conceptualizations, the skill's system, method of mastering it, etc. Many of the skills now are the results of the achievements of the earlier users


This tehnique controls the power and area effect of the chakra so Amaterasu is probably created with more concentrated Katon chakra then usual making it stronger.
Katon chakra:


> Burns everything it touches, a high temperature chakra that is like fire. Can burn objects and like the wind element, it is a specialised offensive type of chakra


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## Enclave (Oct 2, 2008)

Thing is though that the Rasengan has been flat out stated to be the highest level of spatial manipulation and that the sphere is most difficult shape.  That kinda by default makes Amaterasu not the highest level of spatial manipulation because it isn't a Rasengan.  I'm not saying it isn't powerful, I'm just saying that based on what we've been told in the manga a Katon: Rasengan would likely trump Amaterasu.

Bare in mind, there's likely never going to be a Katon: Rasengan so it's not really all that important of a fact.


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## Hamaru (Oct 2, 2008)

From here on out Naruto is stronger. Sasuke had his time to shine and now Naruto will step up to bat.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 2, 2008)

Enclave said:


> Thing is though that the Rasengan has been flat out stated to be the highest level of spatial manipulation and that the sphere is most difficult shape.  That kinda by default makes Amaterasu not the highest level of spatial manipulation because it isn't a Rasengan.  I'm not saying it isn't powerful, I'm just saying that based on what we've been told in the manga a Katon: Rasengan would likely trump Amaterasu.
> 
> Bare in mind, there's likely never going to be a Katon: Rasengan so it's not really all that important of a fact.



Yeah if you mean in terms of fire power but Aamaterasu is more effective because you can burn people just by looking at them.


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## Enclave (Oct 2, 2008)

See, effectiveness is a whole different category though and not related to a jutsu's rank.


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## Franckie (Oct 2, 2008)

Naruto will surpass both Jiraiya and Sasuke after the senjutsu training.


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## wild09 (Oct 2, 2008)

Sasuke for the moment. Naruto is still kinda lame and so far all sage mode did was increase his strength. He hasn't learned how to use anything in sage mode other than that strength. Honestly though, after seeing Killer Bee pretty much kill Sasuke twice, it makes Naruto look like he has a hell of a lot more potential if he could control the Kyuubi or and if he could learn how to  be an all around better fighter, especially speed wise. Still Sasuke would murder him without using MS with ease at this point.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 2, 2008)

wild09 said:


> Sasuke for the moment. Naruto is still kinda lame and so far all sage mode did was increase his strength. He hasn't learned how to use anything in sage mode other than that strength. Honestly though, after seeing Killer Bee pretty much kill Sasuke twice, it makes Naruto look like he has a hell of a lot more potential if he could control the Kyuubi or and if he could learn how to  be an all around better fighter, especially speed wise. Still Sasuke would murder him without using MS with ease at this point.



lol Sasuke without MS is a joke.His girly kicks and punches cant even hurt Ten-Ten.


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## -Maya- (Oct 2, 2008)

Sasuke_fanboy said:


> you assumptions are shit, since Sasuke sama is a god that can never be surpassed.



Yes I'm going to pay attention to this post


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## Hamaru (Oct 2, 2008)

Franckie said:


> Naruto will surpass both Jiraiya and Sasuke after the senjutsu training.



The only one left for him to pass up is Jiriaya. Sasuke is no longer an issue.


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## Agony (Oct 2, 2008)

i say sasuke.ms sasuke will burn him with amaterasu.


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## SINLOC (Oct 2, 2008)

what ever dude were just saying that with narutos new sage powers sauske will kneel down at the site of him.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 2, 2008)

2sexa4u said:


> i say sasuke.ms sasuke will burn him with amaterasu.



Henge >> Amaterasu is cannon


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## The Wired (Oct 2, 2008)

lol at anyone who says Sasuke sama..... It kinda makes it sound like your sleeping with him or something.


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## -Maya- (Oct 2, 2008)

wiesmann said:


> Henge >> Amaterasu is cannon



Shhh Spoiler wiesman


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 2, 2008)

This Naruto wins its too obvious.


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## Csdabest (Oct 2, 2008)

Really. Where the hell is people getting all this. Naruto is faster than Sasuke mess. HM will not increase his speed that drasticly. Stop playing yourselves.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Oct 2, 2008)

Currently Hermit Naruto Sasuke needs to trains his new abilities in MS plus Improve power behind his attacks Sasuke would be overwhelmed at his current level. Saying that Naruto and Sasuke will not happen until Sasuke gains the full power of the Uchiha bloodline ems.


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## durtycheese (Oct 2, 2008)

sasuke ms > ALL


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Oct 2, 2008)

The Hand of God said:


> again, Sasuke is no way near his peak, just like Naruto. Last time i remember, both had the same potential in the stats.


And nowhere did I say Sasuke's near his peak. I said Sasuke's closer to his peak than Naruto but that doesn't mean he's about to hit it. Understand what I'm saying before you make these comments. Same potential in stats? There's no proof of that? Are you bringing this back to databook 1 where we had no idea about Naruto's further Kyuubi control, Senjutsu and elemental usage? That's not proof considering so much has happened that throws it off. Besides, they both had a 5 and that doesn't mean they are the same in that area. It's silly to assume so. 





> He will get it since Sasuke is already feeling the after effects of MS.  Although Madara did hide Itachi's body even though Sasuke told him he don't need it, Madara knows Sasuke will want those eyes soon. It doesn't matter if they are on the same level or above, as all MS jutsu are above S class level, something we can't say about Naruto.


You're wrong first of all. MS jutsu have no ranking to them simply because they are all bloodline specific jutsu. You can't rank them and the databook even shows this. As far as we know it could be B ranked for every single jutsu. Rank tells can power a lot of the time it's only made for jutsu difficulty. Sasuke's only used 1 S ranked jutsu this series and it's Kirin. Naruto has atleast 2 we've seen this far. All the others are non-ranked. Sennin Mode has no rank and every Senjutsu skill in the databook has it's own category of jutsu (has it's own symbol and everything which is a first for something) and judging by the databook even though it has it's own area it's non-ranked too. Know what you're talking about before you say it. Even so he uses regular S-class jutsu outside of Sennin mode and that's more than Sasuke. 


> Sasuke has the same options for improvement.
> 
> Itachi MS
> EMS (FINAL JUTSU)
> ...


No he doesn't. Naruto's are higher

- Improve base mode stats 
- Learn more jutsu 
- Learn more about his chakra while using it at it's fullest
- Finish the jutsu Minato left behind
- Improve the jutsu he has in his base mode to their full level
- Improve the jutsu he has in his Sennin mode to their full level
- Control Kyuubi's chakra

That's what makes it different and gives Naruto a larger area of options. Take Sasuke. Once he's mastered something he's done with it. It's not the same for Naruto. Naruto can master a jutsu in base mode and then go into Sennin mode, do the jutsu again and have a stronger result. That's one reason why his potential is higher than Sasuke's. He can take one jutsu and master it 2 different ways, the same for Kyuubi's chakra. Sasuke can't do that anymore since he doesn't have a stronger mode rather than getting stronger eyes with different skills. Naruto isn't held back by that. The same can be said for if Naruto wanted to use Kyuubi's chakra in comparison with that if he wanted to balance them all to make a new result. Sasuke cannot do this. 

And no you can't copy more to get more affinities so you're misunderstanding the situation. Yes you can learn more skills and learn different elements if you're body allows you too but that doesn't mean you can learn affinities. There's a difference between learning elemental recompositions and learning affinities. 


> It is, because Naruto doens't come up with new jutsus out of his ass. He also had someone telling him what to do. You can bet anything that, that new jutsu is nothing but the completion of FRS.


You have no proof and Naruto does come up with jutsu. Uzumaki Naruto Rendan's other combinations are all based upon Naruto. Hell, the FRS's design is based upon Naruto. Don't tell me you think Kakashi and Yamato told him how that's supposed to be designed because they didn't. Naruto can come up with his own jutsu as good as Sasuke if not better considering he's more unpredictable and he's prone to thinking out of the box. Either way his creativity isn't anything to joke about. 



> then, he must be the first to say it because that i first for me.


It's been said more times so it's good you're paying attention to it now. 



> Zetsu:* "At any rate, its gonna be on a completely different scale from what normal humans can normally produce with their own charka nature manipulation"*


Nowhere did he say it was impossible though. He said it's on a different scale than what humans normally can do. Sasuke's not normal so it shouldn't be a shock. Now had Zetsu said "there's no way it's possible" I'd understand but considering he outlined the jutsu and gave it an explaination based on what it is it's not impossible rather than abnormal. The regular Fuuton Rasengan is impossible. FRS is even further than that. There's a different. 


> But not at the rate Sasuke can. He has more variety of jutsus than Naruto. Hell, he already had two affinities by the age of 13, when in fact, Jounins are the ones associated with having two affinities.


Naruto can do it even faster than Sasuke. Have you forgotten about the TKB training session? He can learn things faster than Sasuke can if he does it that way. You say Sasuke has more variety when really you aren't understanding the fully options that Naruto can learn to do with more than one chakra source. As if Kyuubi's chakra wasn't enough now he has Sennin chakra too? Do you understand how ridiculously overpowered that is? Naruto learned his element much faster than Sasuke did, he did it in 2 days while Kakashi said Sasuke took a large number for his. You're underestimating Naruto's potential. He's done it before and he can do it again. 


> I didn't say that Naruto'a chakra isn't special, but that Sasuke has a special chakra too.


I doubt his chakra's more special than Naruto's but either way you brought it up as a comment towards Sasuke when really I don't think it helped. His chakra's special but that doesn't mean you can compare it to Naruto's. We know who's been heavily influenced by the chakra comment in the series and it doesn't need to be said. 


> Main force doesn't mean, fastest shinobi or as fast as Sasuke


.
He's been faster than Sasuke before KN mode and we know that Senjutsu does increase his speed so you're saying it's impossible to be faster than Sasuke? Do you understand how Naruto can get faster? Naruto Sasuke and other shinobi are fast but most of the time they propel chakra to their feet to get faster. What happens when you propel a great amount? You get much much faster. Say regular chakra is a 1 in quality and Senjutsu is a 2. You'll get 2x the result. It's the same here. He will be faster, don't misunderstand this. Sasuke's speed has been touched upon by me here. I don't need to comment on it again. 


> You do know that Sasuke's goal isn't to become the strongest, right? Because if that was his case, the databook would have said the same.


You do know that means he'll be stronger than Sasuke right? I mean you do know this correct because if you don't you need to take a step back and read the comment again. You can deny it all you want but the databook is right in front of your face here. If you're going to use comments from it acknowledge exactly what it says. The time for Naruto to surpass Sasuke is here and when it happens don't be upset when I explain it. Naruto's goal isn't to become the stronger shinobi in the world either, it's to become the greatest and strongest Hokage. Becoming the strongest shinobi in the world will just come with him given everything else said about him. He isn't the child of prophecy for nothing. 


> I disagree. Naruto's answer for everything has been the Kyuubi, even in training. The is like Sasuke CS is cheap, Kyuubi is not debates.


You're wrong considering that Naruto hasn't used Kyuubi once during the Senjutsu training. It's been all hardwork, guts and talent and it's the same training Jiraiya did so you know he didn't use Kyuubi. Hell, he only used Kyuubi's chakra against Kakuzu because his own chakra was drained and tired, even Kakuzu said Naruto looked beatup already. Even so you take Kyuubi from Naruto you still have Sennin Naruto. He's still the monster he is without using Kyuubi's chakra. You take Sharingan from Sasuke and we know what we get. The fact is Naruto's less reliant on Kyuubi (which is heavily explained through Naruto's own comments about not using it including the databook's comments) than Sasuke is on Sharingan (which is abuses every single fight and it'll only get worse. Disagree all you want but the manga and the databook are against you.


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## The Juice Man (Oct 2, 2008)

Sasuke will have Itachi's eyes before fighting Naruto.

I'm calling it right now.


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## Tobirama (Oct 2, 2008)

the only way sasuke even hope of fight naruto is pms + kyuubi

and even then he will be pwnd...just like madara by shodaime


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## -Maya- (Oct 2, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Really. Where the hell is people getting all this. Naruto is faster than Sasuke mess. HM will not increase his speed that drasticly. Stop playing yourselves.



Really If it's anything like the Boost of Strength it will dwarf Sasuke

He was Able to lift a stone Toad nearly as large as Bunta where as before he wasn't able to lift it an inch so what is that Strength x50


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 2, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> Really If it's anything like the Boost of Strength it will dwarf Sasuke
> 
> He was Able to lift a stone Toad nearly as large as Bunta where as before he wasn't able to lift it an inch so what is that Strength x50



by your logic sakura should of been faster then kakashi... she is stronger then him right...

but hold on... strength does not = speed...

maybe thats why they have seperate categories


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## The Wired (Oct 2, 2008)

If senjutsu can increase his strength that much (^ see Maya's statue example) surely, the senjutsu will give him a massive boost in speed as well. The Kumite training will teach naruto how to use these new stat boosts in an effective manner. HM = boost in speed, strength, agility, and chakra.  Humite training = putting all of those elements into a new taijutsu style that will surpass Sasuke's taijutsu.

Ninjutsu is a different argument because it is still unknown as to how Naruto will evade Amaterasu (even though we know he will evade it when the time comes). However, I was mainly responding to these ridiculous arguments about Naruto's speed and taijutsu abilities.


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## Tasmanian Tiger (Oct 2, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> by your logic sakura should of been faster then kakashi... she is stronger then him right...
> 
> but hold on... strength does not = speed...
> 
> maybe thats why they have seperate categories



If you look Jiraiya battle you'd know that his speed increased a lot from Base form.


SENJUTSU increases ALL stats.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 2, 2008)

Tasmanian Tiger said:


> If you look Jiraiya battle you'd know that his speed increased a lot from Base form.
> 
> 
> SENJUTSU increases ALL stats.



He hardly moved in his base mode only summoned. And the move he did make was successful he dodged the incoming summons. So you have no way of comparing base mode speed to hermit mode speed.


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## Barracus (Oct 2, 2008)

lulz, this is an easy one, I can't believe people actually don't know the answer to this.


Naruto>rocks>Uchihas

There's your logic right there.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 2, 2008)

Barracus said:


> lulz, this is an easy one, I can't believe people actually don't know the answer to this.
> 
> 
> Naruto>rocks>Uchihas
> ...



This poll just proves how many people dislike Sasuke because thats the only way Naruto could be winning without showing anything.


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## Petrie (Oct 2, 2008)

It's hard to say this soon, but I honestly can't see anything beating the MS =/
Maybe Naruto will find a way to compete with it, but until then, I say Sasuke would win...


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## Sphere87 (Oct 2, 2008)

Mmh, I say there would be around the same level like there are IMO equal in Base Mode (without MS and Sage arts). There are destined to be rivals, so the gap schouldn´t be large. Both have one major power up to go in the future: EMS and Minatos Key. The only thing I can say is, that this fight will be spectacular, because there are nearly the same Level, like there were at the VotE. That are the best fights IMO.


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2008)

Right now sasuke still has the upper hand but when Naruto learns the Frog Fu and learn some more jutsu then we will have a fight.


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## -Maya- (Oct 2, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> by your logic sakura should of been faster then kakashi... she is stronger then him right...
> 
> but hold on... strength does not = speed...
> 
> maybe thats why they have seperate categories




Was it my post that you didn't understand or the manga 

Channeling Chakra to your Bodies increases all stats i said if the Increase in strength and durability was as great as that shown Speed would also be multiplied


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## Csdabest (Oct 2, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> Really If it's anything like the Boost of Strength it will dwarf Sasuke
> 
> He was Able to lift a stone Toad nearly as large as Bunta where as before he wasn't able to lift it an inch so what is that Strength x50



And its not. Jiraya strengthj was increased drasticly. Speed was but ni where near as much


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 2, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> And its not. Jiraya strengthj was increased drasticly. Speed was but ni where near as much



I don't get where people are getting that Hermit mode affects speed the manga doesn't even use hermit mode and speed in the same sentence.


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## jdbzkh (Oct 2, 2008)

Naruto with Senjutsu has made his body stronger and faster.

Naruto's speed was ranked around 3 while Sasuke's was at 4, Senjutsu increased his strength drastectly so it will do the same for speed meaning that 3 will shoot up too 4 or 5.

Naruto just took away Sasuke's biggest advantage speed, now with the new fighting style his Taijutsu will be above Sasuke's as well. 

Naruto's element is stronger than his 

and if all else fails 

drum roll please

Itachi left Naruto something behind to put his brother in his place 

Ta Da

Naruto > Sasuke 

Really Itachi believes in Naruto you Uchihafanboys should do the same.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> I don't get where people are getting that Hermit mode affects speed the manga doesn't even use hermit mode and speed in the same sentence.



Jiraiya showed to instances of speed durring his fight, 

when he kicked skiny Pain and when he used the Ultimate Rasengan. Other than that its just logical to know that speed with be increased as well, since chakara effects the whole body. If Naruto can now lift boulders he couldnt even budge before he can reach speeds his only dreamed of now.


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## Csdabest (Oct 2, 2008)

Senju buffs the strength, speed, stamina. Stop pulling crap out ya arses


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Senju buffs the strength, speed, stamina. Stop pulling crap out ya arses



Show me were the manga stated it boost speed?


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Show me were the manga stated it boost speed?


Do you know how Senjutsu works? Of course it affects speed. Even Jiraiya proved it when he got faster. 

Senjutsu makes strength, Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, it makes all of it stronger mainly because of one reason. It's a stronger chakra and a massively stronger chakra at that. They use chakra for everything in this series and having a stronger chakra gives stronger results. Look at KN. He's fast and powerful because the chakra flowing through him is enough to grant him super strength and super speed. Sennin Naruto has super strength because of the chakra quality flowing through his body. It's nothing different than using regular chakra outside of how effective it is. To put it simply you use stronger chakra you get a stronger result. 

Naruto will get a speed increase besides normal speed it'll be Senjusu-fied thus making him faster. Every ninja uses chakra to increase their speed and like I've said before using a stronger chakra will make Naruto faster. 

So yes Senjutsu increases Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, speed, strength, defense, it increases everything. If Naruto had a physical strength boost of that much chances are his speed will also be improved to a boost of that level.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2008)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Do you know how Senjutsu works? Of course it affects speed. Even Jiraiya proved it when he got faster.
> 
> Senjutsu makes strength, Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, it makes all of it stronger mainly because of one reason. It's a stronger chakra and a massively stronger chakra at that. They use chakra for everything in this series and having a stronger chakra gives stronger results. Look at KN. He's fast and powerful because the chakra flowing through him is enough to grant him super strength and super speed. Sennin Naruto has super strength because of the chakra quality flowing through his body. It's nothing different than using regular chakra outside of how effective it is. To put it simply you use stronger chakra you get a stronger result.
> 
> ...



Im am not going to read your hypothesis rantings please just give me what I asked for. Show me the actual statement where it stated Senjutsu increases your speed. We have statements that it increases the following strength, Ninjutus strength, durability, chakara conservation, ,but something seem to be missing???????? Oh I know its speed booster. Unless you can give me a chapter in page number where it *states* this. Thanks for playing


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## NamiKazeKage (Oct 3, 2008)

All the fan boy comments make me sick.


We dont know anything about Naruto's HM or jutsu he learned.


So atm its WE DONT KNOW!


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## cosmosis90 (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Im am not going to read your hypothesis rantings please just give me what I asked for. Show me the actual statement where it stated Senjutsu increases your speed. We have statements that it increases the following strength, Ninjutus strength, durability, chakara conservation, ,but something seem to be missing???????? Oh I know its speed booster. Unless you can give me a chapter in page number where it *states* this. Thanks for playing




dont be a smart-ass. the guy is kindly tryingto explain it to you and ure treating him like an idiot. if u cant handle the fact that sage chakra increases all stats then gtfo. seriously. we dont need jackasses like you putting down every naruto development because ure a tard.


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## Absolute Zero (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Im am not going to read your hypothesis rantings please just give me what I asked for. Show me the actual statement where it stated Senjutsu increases your speed. We have statements that it increases the following strength, Ninjutus strength, durability, chakara conservation, ,but something seem to be missing???????? Oh I know its speed booster. Unless you can give me a chapter in page number where it *states* this. Thanks for playing


You're right, it isn't definitely stated in the manga that senjutsu boosts speed, but it is certainly implied.  Jiraiya began using extremely high speed maneuvers (IE the Ultimate Rasengan and the kick that blinded one of Pain's bodies) only once he was in Hermit Mode.

And also, pretty much everything KN said.  Senjutsu acts as a supplement to your regular abilities, much like the Kyuubi's chakra has done.  With the Kyuubi, we saw Naruto have drastic increases in strength and speed.  And since senjutsu appears to be more or less a "replacement" for Kyuubi's chakra, it can be readily infered that it will grant similar attribute boosters.

edit - note that I'm not casting judgement on whether Naruto will be faster than Sasuke with senjutsu.  I am fairly confident in saying Naruto will be faster than he was before, though.


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## Csdabest (Oct 3, 2008)

Senju increase quality of chakra which naturally increases your PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES. Naruto basically got Curse seal. Difference is it draws chakra from outside rather than your inner chakra


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2008)

cosmosis90 said:


> dont be a smart-ass. the guy is kindly tryingto explain it to you and ure treating him like an idiot. if u cant handle the fact that sage chakra increases all stats then gtfo. seriously. we dont need jackasses like you putting down every naruto development because ure a tard.



I don't me to sound rude, but didn't I pacifically asked for textual evidence. I can make a pretty post stating my personal analysis of a particular event as well ,but the key word in that is analysis (opinion). And you are claiming the same thing ,but the manga doesn't support this. Show me textual evidence and give me the chapter and page that it increases stats. Provide me with these things and I would admit I was wrong ,but until then it is fanfiction and not valid.


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## cosmosis90 (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I don't me to sound rude, but didn't I pacifically asked for textual evidence. I can make a pretty post stating my personal analysis of a particular event as well ,but the key word in that is analysis (opinion). And you are claiming the same thing ,but the manga doesn't support this. Show me textual evidence and give me the chapter and page that it increases stats. Provide me with these things and I would admit I was wrong ,but until then it is fanfiction and not valid.




I would be so pissed off at u rite now if u didnt have a point. however naruto gets MORE chakra so its LOGICAL that his body will react to this growing amount. its not in the manga, ure rite, there is no evidence, ure rite. but there are past events that show that a growing amount of chakra results in an increase in power, speed, stamina and overal badassness. but it is ur own personal choice to wait for manga proof and thats more then fine. i congratulate ur patience and ur lack of speculating hype.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Senju increase quality of chakra which naturally increases your PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES. Naruto basically got Curse seal. Difference is it draws chakra from outside rather than your inner chakra



Another infernence and personal opinion. Where did the manga state increase quality of chakara= increase in physical attributes. Are you Narutard pulling shit out of your asses or what. None of seem to be hearing me so maybe I'll post it bigger.




GIVE ME CHAPTER AND PAGE NUMBER OF THE STATEMENTS THAT YOU PROCLAIM. IF NOT THEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID BECAUSE IT CANNOT BE SUPPORTED FROM ANY SOURCE OTHER THAN YOUR OPINION.


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## Jυstin (Oct 3, 2008)

We'll have to see if Sage-Mode Naruto's skills can match up to Sasuke's first, let alone the MS.

Sage-Mode isn't a be-all-to-end-all jutsu. Just cause Konohamaru would use it, wouldn't make him stronger than Tsunade. Naruto will need to know how to use it and have high enough base stats for the boost to be around Sasuke's stats.

I don't even think they will fight, but it would be a _hopefully_ and equally epic battle on par with their fight at VotE.


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## Absolute Zero (Oct 3, 2008)

Calm down, for god's sake.


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## cosmosis90 (Oct 3, 2008)

Absolute Zero said:


> Calm down, for god's sake.




i wish it was that easy. eveyone on this forum is abnormally smart and they know everything about this manga which means for every reply there will be 10 others which will either completely agree or completely disagree. there is no end in sight until manga proves someone wrong and the others rite. its a fact


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2008)

cosmosis90 said:


> I would be so pissed off at u rite now if u didnt have a point. however naruto gets MORE chakra so its LOGICAL that his body will react to this growing amount. *its not in the manga, ure rite, there is no evidence, ure rite. *but there are past events that show that a growing amount of chakra results in an increase in power, speed, stamina and overal badassness. but it is ur own personal choice to wait for manga proof and thats more then fine. i congratulate ur patience and ur lack of speculating hype.



See that is the Fallacy in your post Sage mode does not give you chakara. Only conserves the amount you use because you are using energy from the outside making you recover quicker.

Link removed (You see how a post a text of my claims).

But since theres no evidence in the manga how are you LOGICALLY supporting your clams? 

Again he is not growing the amount of chakara he is using outside nature to CONSERVE chakara big difference.


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## narutoaddict2 (Oct 3, 2008)

Sage Naruto. I am going to make the case minus the "power" Itach gave him.

It is possible to move faster then the eye can follow, and it is very possible that Naruto could achieve that level of movement considering the physical boosts of Sage mode along with utilizing Kage bunshins to increase the numbers of targets to hit. So it is possible that he could evade Amaterasu. As for Tsukiyomi its also very possible that Naruto will be intelligent enough to avoid making eye contact with Sasuke, and even more possible that even if he fell under Tsukiyomi he could use his ridiculous "determination" to keep on fighting and shake off at least partially the trauma his mind would be put under. 

Now all of that might seem a little ridiculous to assume. But it still all falls within the realm of possibility. The important thing to consider about MS is the fact that Sasuke really only has barely a hand full of opportunities to use the jutsu before his chakra, body, or eyes give out. One or two shots of Amaterasu and maybe two or three attempts at Tsukiyomi and I would say Sasuke would be down just through sheer exhaustion. This is forgetting including the rigors of normal fighting and his regular use of chidori variants.  So because of the the fact that Sasuke only has a couple a very small number of shots he can use, given the fact that its not 100% that they are going to work, it puts Sasuke at a bit of a disadvantage and hedging his bet on a big gamble. 

That isn't to say I am assuming Sasuke would lose by giving out to exhaustion, the point is that only after a couple of his big MS jutsu, he would be so beat down that Naruto with his ridiculous stamina and double healing factor with Sage + Kyuubi chakra, would be able to beat him just by being able to keep up the pressure. Its not that hard to imagine that with Naruto still fighting at top shape after Sasuke used Amaterasu a couple of times unsuccessfully, that Sasuke might be tired enough that Naruto could catch him with a Rasengan to the back, especially if Sasuke's vision blurs again during the fight.


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## cosmosis90 (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> See that is the Fallacy in your post Sage mode does not give you chakara. Only conserves the amount you use because you are using energy from the outside making you recover quicker.
> 
> Linky for convenience. (You see how a post a text of my claims).
> 
> ...




alrite i can keep saying what im saying but it wont get us anywhere. u have a point ill give u that. i could debate that in order to conserve chakra u need more chakra in order to not use ur own. but im sure ull have a twist for that aswell. and this will forver drag on. im gonna adopt ur way of thinking and im gonna wait for the manga to STATE exactly what sage mode offers the user. and if im rite then u can expect a big lol from me to you. but if ure rite then hats off to u. rite now i think its too early say exactly what sage mode does.


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## cosmosis90 (Oct 3, 2008)

narutoaddict2 said:


> Sage Naruto. I am going to make the case minus the "power" Itach gave him.
> 
> It is possible to move faster then the eye can follow, and it is very possible that Naruto could achieve that level of movement considering the physical boosts of Sage mode along with utilizing Kage bunshins to increase the numbers of targets to hit. So it is possible that he could evade Amaterasu. As for Tsukiyomi its also very possible that Naruto will be intelligent enough to avoid making eye contact with Sasuke, and even more possible that even if he fell under Tsukiyomi he could use his ridiculous "determination" to keep on fighting and shake off at least partially the trauma his mind would be put under.
> 
> ...



according to some very determined minds on this post, there is no sage chakra. but everything else is perfectly legitimate. if sasuke misses and gets tired then hes toast. thats why its better to be lucky and a stamina powerhouse then to be a genius with limited chakra. i feel bad for sasuke. chakra limit seems like such a lame reason to lose a fight.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2008)

cosmosis90 said:


> alrite i can keep saying what im saying but it wont get us anywhere. u have a point ill give u that. *i could debate that in order to conserve chakra u need more chakra in order to not use ur own.* but im sure ull have a twist for that aswell. and this will forver drag on. im gonna adopt ur way of thinking and im gonna wait for the manga to STATE exactly what sage mode offers the user. and if im rite then u can expect a big lol from me to you. but if ure rite then hats off to u. rite now i think its too early say exactly what sage mode does.



But isn't that the reason the Sage mode could only be taught to people such as Jiraiya and Naruto because they have Massive chakara capacities.

Linky for convenience.

And we already know what sage mode Fugasaku states its benefits clearly.


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## cosmosis90 (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But isn't that the reason the Sage mode could only be taught to people such as Jiraiya and Naruto because they have Massive chakara capacities.
> 
> Linky for convenience.
> 
> And we already know what sage mode Fugasaku states its benefits clearly.




as i predicted, u had a twist for that aswell. bravo. what i meant by that, and sorry for expressing myself wrong, is that i want to see an actual battle, naruto to activate sage mode and then see if he is indeed faster, stronger etc or not. and just because they have massive chakra reserves that doesnt mean that it doesnt run out. ure the one saying its conserved by sage energy. the fact that u need huge chakra to have sage mode is however a valid point to make. if ure a chakra powerhouse, why do u need more? i hand the microphone back to you.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2008)

cosmosis90 said:


> according to some very determined minds on this post, there is no sage chakra. but everything else is perfectly legitimate. if sasuke misses and gets tired then hes toast. thats why its better to be lucky and a stamina powerhouse then to be a genius with limited chakra. i feel bad for sasuke. chakra limit seems like such a lame reason to lose a fight.



Also there is fallacy in your logic hear as well. Naruto always was a chakara power house and all through the manga had chakara advantage over Sasuke. But even that didn't help him win the fight at valley of the end. Also hasn't Itachi disprove your claims and he was even more limited on his chakara capacity than Sasuke (see data books for details), but did that hinder hiim? He is still considered to be one of the top tiers in the manga dispite his stamina being a little on the lower side when compared to chakara capacity. Fact still remains the battles in this manga are not decided by stamina only killer jutsu. It's been that way most of the battles as we have seen and it will continue to be that way. Stamina as well as experience in this manga has little to no role in the outcome of a battle.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2008)

cosmosis90 said:


> as i predicted, u had a twist for that aswell. bravo. what i meant by that, and sorry for expressing myself wrong, is that i want to see an actual battle, naruto to activate sage mode and then see if he is indeed faster, stronger etc or not. and just because they have massive chakra reserves that doesnt mean that it doesnt run out. ure the one saying its conserved by sage energy. the fact that u need huge chakra to have sage mode is however a valid point to make. if ure a chakra powerhouse, why do u need more? i hand the microphone back to you.



Never stated you need more and even chakara powerhouses can run out of chakara if utilized to much or improperly. Just like Bill Gates can go bankrupt if he spent too much or invested unwisely. And just out of curiosity can one really have too much chakara? Just like can one really have to much money and even if one has alot one is always wanting more hence investments. Also, I think you are mistaken I never stated they obtain more chakara (you did), nor implied that they needed more. The manga simply states that they CONSERVE chakara so thats what I am conveying.


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## narutoaddict2 (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Also there is fallacy in your logic hear as well. Naruto always was a chakara power house and all through the manga had chakara advantage over Sasuke. But even that didn't help him win the fight at valley of the end. Also hasn't Itachi disprove your claims and he was even more limited on his chakara capacity than Sasuke (see data books for details), but did that hinder hiim? He is still considered to be one of the top tiers in the manga dispite his stamina being a little on the lower side when compared to chakara capacity. Fact still remains the battles in this manga are not decided by stamina only killer jutsu. It's been that way most of the battles as we have seen and it will continue to be that way. Stamina as well as experience in this manga has little to no role in the outcome of a battle.



But before Naruto never had Sage mode. Before Naruto was always a chakra and stamina powerhouse sure, but he was essentially a one trick pony. He had horrible fundamentals that doomed his fights. With Sage Mode Naruto won't just be a walking Rasengan dispenser, he will have the physical abilities that will either match (most likely speed) or far exceed (strength and stamina) exceed Sasuke's. Which will bring the fight down to the Big hitter jutsu. I already discussed how the MS jutsu play out; I wasn't saying Sasuke would use his MS jutsu to the point of exhaustion, the point was that because they take such a huge toll on him using them once or twice will give Naruto and his essentially unlimited stamina and chakra in Sage mode a huge advantage over him. 

True Sasuke has more stamina then Itachi, but that doesn't mean he won't be handicapped by using it like Itachi was, just to a lesser degree. Sasuke has already shown that he has to cover up his eye after using each MS jutsu, it obviously takes a toll on him. Consider that toll along with the natural exhaustion from an intense one on one fight and compare it to someone who has been fighting at the same level at the start and it's obvious that the scale will definitely begin to tip to one side.


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## The Reason (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto always was a chakara power house and all through the manga had chakara advantage over Sasuke. But even that didn't help him win the fight at valley of the end.



I believe Naruto "lost" because he had a different objective than Sasuke... Sasuke's objective was to kill Naruto when Naruto was trying to prove that he was equal to Sasuke or even greater and to take him back to Konoha. Which is why Naruto aimed for the forehead protector instead of a vital body part. Earlier on before that fight Sasuke claimed that Naruto wouldn't be able to touch/damage his forehead protector. Naruto being Naruto just wanted to prove him wrong.

Well that was insignificant to this thread.

Well Naruto Sage Mode vs Sasuke MS... Hmmm.
This will be just a scenario I have of that fight since there is no concrete facts yet, why bother explaining?

Naruto vs Sasuke
If Sasuke uses Amaterasu, Naruto can use his Tajuu Kage Bunshin and make even more clones than before since Sage Mode has been stated to conserve chakra. Sasuke will not know which is which when 100-1000 or more Narutos are on the field.

If Sasuke uses Kirin, i'd doubt Naruto would let that happen. Just knowing the character Naruto is, he wouldn't lay down and just wait for his death.

If Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi, Naruto SHOULDN'T be that dumb to fall for it and just look him in the eyes.

I mean, it may seem i'm being biased, but i'm really not. I see Sasuke's jutsu, and I feel that it is easy to counter it since his Jutsu/Skills either take time to do it or sacrifices something (eyesight for example). While Naruto he has incredible chakra which he can continue his attacks without having to worry about being low. The only jutsu i see which has a negative effect is the FRS, but the risk could be eliminated if he completes his Jutsu.

Like I said again, this is just MY scenario. So from how I see it, Naruto has the advantage at this time.

Also for more of an advantage...
Naruto is currently getting professionaly training showing him how to get this Natural Chakra and later on how to effectively use it.

While Sasuke has just receieved his MS and is quite unsure on how to use it properly and what potential it holds.


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## cosmosis90 (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Never stated you need more and even chakara powerhouses can run out of chakara if utilized to much or improperly. Just like Bill Gates can go bankrupt if he spent too much or invested unwisely. And just out of curiosity can one really have too much chakara? Just like can one really have to much money and even if one has alot one is always wanting more hence investments. Also, I think you are mistaken I never stated they obtain more chakara (you did), nor implied that they needed more. The manga simply states that they CONSERVE chakara so thats what I am conveying.




omg man ure just stretching this arguement beyond resonable margins. although u did manage to reply without once using the word fallacy you will not be excused. i was actually agreeing with you that once u have massive chakra like jiraya and naruto, its stupid if sage arts gives u more chakra. see how that blends in with ur arguements? throughout ur replies all ive done is agree with you to a certain extent and then i actually started to say u have good points (valid points anyway). i then progressed to stating that we will have to wait to see if sage mode makes naruto stronger and faster. note that that in no way contradicts with you. can we just agree to disagree on this?


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## -Maya- (Oct 3, 2008)

Senjutsu makes the users Chakra stronger 

Meaning That the Chakra when used grants a greater affect than before

Chakra can be used by Ninja to create Ninjutsu and Genjutsu or to grant increased Durability , strength and speed

You want Proof that Chakra increases speed then go read the Wave arc it was clearly shown there


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Oct 3, 2008)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Im am not going to read your hypothesis rantings please just give me what I asked for. Show me the actual statement where it stated Senjutsu increases your speed. We have statements that it increases the following strength, Ninjutus strength, durability, chakara conservation, ,but something seem to be missing???????? Oh I know its speed booster. Unless you can give me a chapter in page number where it *states* this. Thanks for playing


You don't even need to get actual manga, you just need to know how chakra works. I've been explained throughly in the manga and Kishi's even stated how chakra works. Jiraiya himself proved that Senjutsu increased speed during his Chou Oodama Rasengan demo. You can get comments about how it increases Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and Taijutsu all you want but unless you know how it increases them you have no idea how it'll work. It's not that hard. All that you need to know is how chakra and Senjutsu works. Here's the pages again

*Spoiler*: __ 







*Spoiler*: __ 







Notice what Fusaku says. Ninjas use chakra for strength, speed, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, everything. Their speed and strength is powered by their chakra. Everyone knows this. A stronger chakra used? That's what Senjutsu is. A stronger chakra? A faster more powerful character. It's not that hard to understand. 

Do we need proof to know Pain's male? Proof to know Konan's female? Do we need proof to know that Kabuto's not in the manga right now? No, you don't. It's implied and it's shown considering the use of chakra. If you know chakra works you know he's gotten faster. Physical strength and speed use the same concepts with chakra. The same thing is here. 

To sum it up, until you know how Senjutsu works and how it improves those aspects, which it seems you don't and the same with chakra, it's false to you. Once you figure out how chakra and and Senjutsu work it doesn't need to be explained. If you still don't get it after this I'm done. I don't need to explain it anymore to you.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 3, 2008)

-Maya- said:


> Senjutsu makes the users Chakra stronger
> 
> Meaning That the Chakra when used grants a greater affect than before
> 
> ...



its not shown anywhere... especially not in the wave arc... if that was the case sakura would of been faster then either sasuke or naruto... which just wasn't the case


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## Demon_Sargeras (Oct 3, 2008)

The Reason said:


> I believe Naruto "lost" because he had
> 
> 
> a different objective than Sasuke... Sasuke's objective was to kill Naruto when Naruto was trying to prove that he was equal to Sasuke or even greater and to take him back to Konoha. Which is why Naruto aimed for the forehead protector instead of a vital body part. Earlier on before that fight Sasuke claimed that Naruto wouldn't be able to touch/damage his forehead protector. Naruto being Naruto just wanted to prove him wrong.
> ...


you have no idea what you're talking about

first of all
naruto is dumb
everyone knows that
he'd be the first one to get attacked by TS
once that happens he's done for senjutsu, or his nine tail that he doesn't like won't help him

second senjutsu, not only increases you're chakara, it also increases you're durability
if naruto learns to fight like jiarya did, his speed should still be the same as before
sharingan can detect that
just like in 1 tail vs sasuke fight

if you look at how ONE amaratsu knoced out the 8 tail (tough he was smart to survive)
naruto's massive clones will ALL fall for amaratsu
because amaratsu is not a 2m circle move it will burn everything on sight
like look at this panel the whole forest is on fire 
fire doesn't hurt Ryuuma

and naruto hasn't mastered senjutsu
just like sasuke hasn't mastered MS
this thread will make more sense once they master theyre techniques
because i am pretty sure sasuke can't use suassnoo yet
which is the strongest ninjutsu we've yet to seen
and also mentioned in the databooklet

so just wait for naruto to master senjutsu
and see what more it can do , rather then just making him stronger
because that's no way you can hide from amaratsu
so at the moment i am gonna ahve to say sasuuke
(notice that i am no sasuke fan, itachi fan i was, but too bad   )

oh and btw if sasuke was REALLY trying to kill naruto why didn't he? hm?
when he was laying on the ground he could've just done it
it's his behaviour and i am sure he can't kill naruto either
because he's attempted yet he hasn't
and he still remembers team 7 during his fight with 8 tail which proves that he still hasn't completely severed his bonds


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## The Reason (Oct 4, 2008)

I have no idea what I'm talking about? Actually I do, because like i said it is MY scenario of what could happen... I fabricated this little fight so I know what i'm talking about...

What does Naruto being dumb have to do anything about this? If you're talking about strategy wise he's not as dumb as you claim. Just claiming "Naruto is dumb, everyone knows that" makes you look dumb and biased. Even though you say you are not.

You think a fight this big would be over just by Naruto looking at his eyes? No.

Sharingan can detect movement, okay, but where in my post did I ever say that Senjutsu increases a person's speed? You obviously didn't read my post correctly.

I was saying if he was to use Amaterasu, and Naruto had 100-1000+ clones on the field, who would he look at? Every single Naruto? Think about how messed up his eyes would be and how low his chakra would be.

The Amaterasu vs 8 Tails is a bit of a bad comparison with Naruto, the 8 tailed was a big target and was right out in the open. Naruto is a smaller target and a multiple target.

Also no where in my post did I say Naruto has mastered Sage Training, read carefully next time... I was stating that Naruto is getting professional training for it.

At the beginning of the Naruto vs Sasuke fight at the Valley of End, Sasuke's main objective was to kill Naruto which he was trying to do throughout the fight. After Naruto aimed for his headband instead of a vital point, Sasuke changed his mind and decided to gain the Mangekyou Sharingan in his own way which he stated after the fight. It was obvious he was trying to kill Naruto after showing flashbacks of Itachi saying the only way to gain MS is to kill your bestfriend, and Sasuke stated that Naruto was indeed his best friend.


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## Demon_Sargeras (Oct 4, 2008)

The Reason said:


> I have no idea what I'm talking about? Actually I do, because like i said it is MY scenario of what could happen... I fabricated this little fight so I know what i'm talking about...
> 
> What does Naruto being dumb have to do anything about this? If you're talking about strategy wise he's not as dumb as you claim. Just claiming "Naruto is dumb, everyone knows that" makes you look dumb and biased. Even though you say you are not.
> 
> ...


ehhhh

i read you're post
and i am not only reffering to you're post 
because as it is said that you're amount of speed strength stamina you can have, comes from you're chakara as well, since you have unlimited chakara, it should increases you're speed too
but like i said it is useless to the sharingan

and again i am not only ONLY reffereing to you're post
geeeez



and again
did you see the flame itachi cast the whole building and forest was on fire
and with the Sharingan you can naruto
doesn't matter if you have a1000 clones, because those clones are 1 hit KO
any normal moves should enihilate them completely
naruto is dumb
the fact that he pulls up some crazy strategy is basically his "strategies" but he is indeed dump enough to look at the sharingan directly because he has before
and i am pretty sure he doesn't learn his lessons like kakashi does
oh and btw, you not using facts and assuming things makes you look dumb just an opinion no need to argue over this lol

at the valley of the end
"sasuke i will break you'er arms legs if i have to" i think that's as far as going to kill someone, if they aren't willing to listen.
so that doesn't matter they were fighting both in full power yet sasuke was the last man standing
but that's not the point
this fight is totally different

ok to activate sage mode it takes time
while you're trying to concentrate and absorve nature's enegery
sasuke has the advantages to poof naruto with any of his instant KO moves


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 4, 2008)

Demon_Sargeras said:


> ehhhh
> 
> i read you're post
> and i am not only reffering to you're post
> ...



Pre Senjutsu Naruto has equal Taijutsu and strength like Sasuke,he lacks the speed but after Senjutsu he wont have that problem.And you seem to forget that Naruto has much greater stamina in base form then Sasuke,heck confirmed by the Databook that his chakra is so powerfull that it can hold of the fucking Kyuubi.Sasuke kicks like a girl,his only hope is MS.


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## UniversalHandel2020 (Oct 4, 2008)

Csdabest said:


> Nin: Sasuke  Tai: Sasuke  Gen: Sasuke   Int: Sasuke  Str: Naruto   Spd: Sasuke   Sta: Naruto  Seal: Sasuke
> 
> My guess on how it is MS and Senjutsu included.



Your a Saucetard.

Nin: Sasuke Tai: Naruto (Frog-Fu + Enhanced strenght) Gen: Sasuke int: Sasuke 
str: Naruto Spd: Sasuke and Naruto Sta: Naruto Seal: Sasuke

wich makes it even


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 4, 2008)

wiesmann said:


> Pre Senjutsu Naruto has equal Taijutsu and strength like Sasuke,he lacks the speed but after Senjutsu he wont have that problem.And you seem to forget that Naruto has much greater stamina in base form then Sasuke,heck confirmed by the Databook that his chakra is so powerfull that it can hold of the fucking Kyuubi.Sasuke kicks like a girl,his only hope is MS.



lol no... sasuke uses something called a sword... he also uses something called the sharingan...

meaning he would rape naruto in terms of taijutsu


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 4, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> lol no... sasuke uses something called a sword... he also uses something called the sharingan...
> 
> meaning he would rape naruto in terms of taijutsu



Sasuke and his chidori sword would fail against Naruto's Fuuton,it doesent matter if he ha sharingan since Senjutsu multiplies your power many times.It would be like the Lee vs Sasuke fight all over again.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 4, 2008)

wiesmann said:


> Sasuke and his chidori sword would fail against Naruto's Fuuton,it doesent matter if he ha sharingan since Senjutsu multiplies your power many times.It would be like the Lee vs Sasuke fight all over again.



lol... what fuuton? sasuke would just rapestomp naruto...


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 4, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> lol... what fuuton? sasuke would just rapestomp naruto...



Sasuke will just break his sword trying to cut Naruto i agree


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 4, 2008)

wiesmann said:


> Sasuke will just break his sword trying to cut Naruto i agree



break his sword on what? naruto's lifeless corpse?


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 4, 2008)

Sasuke has Kiba level speed and Shushin so what?Shushin is gennin level tehnique,Kiba probably knows Shushin since he is a Chunin,he is as fast as Sasuke.Senjutsu makes you a beast in all stats,so far Naruto lacked only speed,in stamina he crushes Sasuke.


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## Spencer_Gator (Oct 4, 2008)

Naruto I think


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 4, 2008)

wiesmann said:


> Sasuke has Kiba level speed and Shushin so what?Shushin is gennin level tehnique,Kiba probably knows Shushin since he is a Chunin,he is as fast as Sasuke.Senjutsu makes you a beast in all stats,so far Naruto lacked only speed,in stamina he crushes Sasuke.



lol... wtf does kiba have to do with this? stay on topic gb rat

senjutsu is completly useless in front of the sharingan... sasuke is just way too much for naruto to handle... even in sage mode


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 4, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> lol... wtf does kiba have to do with this? stay on topic gb rat
> 
> senjutsu is completly useless in front of the sharingan... sasuke is just way too much for naruto to handle... even in sage mode



Sasuke kicks like a girl,even if Naruto stands on one place he wont feel Sasuke's girly punches


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 4, 2008)

wiesmann said:


> Sasuke kicks like a girl,even if Naruto stands on one place he wont feel Sasuke's girly punches



lol... too bad for naruto sasuke uses a shidori charged sword instead of a fist... naruto would be beheaded within a .001 second of the first starting


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 4, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> lol... too bad for naruto sasuke uses a shidori charged sword instead of a fist... naruto would be beheaded within a .001 second of the first starting



lol To bad Shushin doesent increas the attack speed,Sasuke will still get owned bad.


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## Barrow (Oct 4, 2008)

Naruto pretty easily. Sasuke will need EMS to match Sage Naruto.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 4, 2008)

wiesmann said:


> lol To bad Shushin doesent increas the attack speed,Sasuke will still get owned bad.



lol what? naruto's head would be off his shoulders before he could even notice sasuke had moved...

R.I.P. ramen boy


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 4, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> lol what? naruto's head would be off his shoulders before he could even notice sasuke had moved...
> 
> R.I.P. ramen boy



lol Tell that to HB and Deidara  HB wasnt even trying,he was at 0,00001% after training with his Bijuu.This shows how weak Sasuke is compared to current top tier shinobi.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 4, 2008)

wiesmann said:


> lol Tell that to HB and Deidara  HB wasnt even trying,he was at 0,00001% after training with his Bijuu.This shows how weak Sasuke is compared to current top tier shinobi.



lol... you fail... sasuke beat both killer bee and deidara... hell against deidara he never even tried to kill him... 

well verbaly destroying you is getting boring... peace


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## ?_Camorra_? (Oct 4, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> lol... you fail... sasuke beat both killer bee and deidara... hell against deidara he never even tried to kill him...
> 
> well verbaly destroying you is getting boring... peace



Deidara killed himself and HB let Sasuke win so that he can escape Kumo and let everyone think he was captured


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## Barrow (Oct 4, 2008)

> well verbaly destroying you is getting boring... peace



Concession accepted.


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## The Reason (Oct 4, 2008)

Demon_Sargeras said:


> ehhhh
> 
> i read you're post
> and i am not only reffering to you're post
> ...



You must be retarded or something, I have clearly stated many times that this is my scenario. -_-

At the Valley Of End, no, Naruto was not trying to kill Sasuke, you obviously lack common sense and logical thinking.

It's difficult to reason with a dumbass. Sigh. ::Ends Conversation::


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## Barbera (Oct 4, 2008)

I dunno.... NAruto= Stronger faster and all but what about the jutsus??
will he be able to use his futon rasengan after this?? if yes then he will seriously pwn sasuke
but sasuke has ameratsu he one shoot the 8 tailed 
and has powerfull genjutsu... naruto is strong but little stupid( come on seriously.... ) he isnt very strong against genjutsu...
And he agreed not to use the kyuubi to get stronger...
I dunno... semms quite even
but How about the crow that itachi shoved down narutos throat??

lol By touching sasuke he gave him ameratsu
how about a crow shoved down ur throat ^^


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## Naruto (Oct 4, 2008)

I think Saucegay is a pretty cool guy. Eh fails at killing killerbee and doesn't afraid of anything.


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## blackfire94 (Oct 4, 2008)

Naruto is stronger right know.


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## Gatagata (Oct 4, 2008)

I love how people say Naruto is faster than Sasuke.
I'm still used to Naruto being slow.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 4, 2008)

its ok... throw the naruto fans a bone... god knows they need every scrap they can get


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## Kaku (Oct 4, 2008)

Naruto

He still has few jutsus and other things, we haven't seen so far. As where we have seen everything Sasuke has at the moment.

Naruto has still "The Jutsus", while we know Sasukes "The Jutsu" already.
Sasuke has lost the Cursed Seal while Naruto gained Senjutsu.
Sasuke gained some "power" while Naruto is still in training.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Oct 4, 2008)

Turrin pretty much said it on page 1. Not enough info. I'm leaning towards Naruto but I really don't know. They were even at the Valley of the End and they've both received power ups....no call.


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## Naruto (Oct 4, 2008)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> its ok... throw the naruto fans a bone... god knows they need every scrap they can get



Oh man, you're funny 

Sasuke gets his spotlight time and now they forget that over the course of this manga, every time Sasuke got strong, Naruto got stronger


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## Noriyoku (Oct 4, 2008)

toad sage said Naruto surpassed the jman is sasuke=jiraiya hell  no therefore Naruto wins


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Oct 4, 2008)

Naruto said:


> Oh man, you're funny
> 
> Sasuke gets his spotlight time and now they forget that over the course of this manga, every time Sasuke got strong, Naruto got stronger



yup its as if naruto is sasuke's tail... always a step behind right?  

hey at least it isn't like sasuke is getting amazing fights while naruto  just sits on his ass right?


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## Hiroshi (Oct 4, 2008)

Refer to the Battledome for such threads as there are some there.


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