# SM Jiraiya vs MS Sasuke



## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

*Location:* Hiruzen vs Orochimaru (Barrier is erected)

*Distance:* 45m

*Knowledge:* Full for Sasuke, Jiraiya knows that Sasuke's arsenal is comprised of Katon and Raiton, unaware of MS abilities.

*Mindset:* IC

*Restrictions:* None

*Additional Information:*

- Sasuke's vision is clear

- Jiraiya starts off fused with Ma and Pa

- Sasuke's abilities with MS are the same as when he battled Danzo


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## JuicyG (Oct 26, 2014)

At 15 meters amaterasu becomes a instant problem. But I don't know if Sasuke's In-Character person starts off with amaterasu. Though he probably would knowing about the strength of SM Jiraiya. 

I say if Jiraiya can escape the first amaterasu attempt, if its at the beginning, he will win high-diff


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## Cognitios (Oct 26, 2014)

15 meters + No knowledge on MS = 
Genjutsu
Amaterasu
Susanoo Smash

Sauce is faster has better reflexes and has quicker execution
He takes this mid-high diff


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## FlamingRain (Oct 26, 2014)

Since when is Sasuke faster than Sage Mode Jiraiya?


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## SSMG (Oct 26, 2014)

Would would you restrict a jutsu MS sasuke doesnt have?

But sasuke wins. jiraiya isnt busting his susanno and he has no counter to ammy.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

Sasuke wins mid diff at worst.

Jiraiya has no chances of evading Susano'o arrows + Amaterasu and he gets annihilated in CQC.



JuicyG said:


> But I don't know if Sasuke's In-Character person starts off with amaterasu.


Maybe you should read the manga then.



> he will win high-diff


How exactly?


FlamingRain said:


> Since when is Sasuke faster than Sage Mode Jiraiya?



Since when was Jiraiya faster than Sasuke?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

I doubt Jiraiya can dodge Amaterasu for 15 meters, even with sensing. So when Amaterasu come, he get one-shotted, sadly.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

Jiraiya doesn't have Sage sensing.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Made this because of the SM Naruto vs MS Sasuke thread, wondered if anybody thought that an inferior SM Jiraiya would make much of a difference in place of Naruto.



Cognitios said:


> Genjutsu



Fukasaku or Shima wakes him up.



> Amaterasu



SM sensing says hello.



> Susanoo Smash



Would IC Sasuke start off with Susanoo?



> Sauce is faster has better reflexes and has quicker execution
> He takes this mid-high diff



Not sure how MS Sasuke compares to this but Jiraiya was very fast.

He was able to conjure up a Chou Odama Rasengan after he threw away his sandals and jumped after them, he made it before they touched the floor.



SSMG said:


> Would would you restrict a jutsu MS sasuke doesnt have?
> 
> But sasuke wins. jiraiya isnt busting his susanno and he has no counter to ammy.



Ah, you're right. Thought that he used it during the Danzo fight. 

Again, Sage Mode sensing counters Amaterasu.



saikyou said:


> Jiraiya doesn't have Sage sensing.



Can't he sense Chakra like Naruto?


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## Cognitios (Oct 26, 2014)

> Fukasaku or Shima wakes him up.


Not before he's roasted stabbed or otherwise dead 


> SM sensing says hello.


Not from 15 meters, J-man's speed can't keep up even if he does sense it.


> Would IC Sasuke start off with Susanoo?


Against a kage level opponent with full knowledge?
Yeah


> Not sure how MS Sasuke compares to this but Jiraiya was very fast.
> 
> He was able to conjure up a Chou Odama Rasengan after he threw away his sandals and jumped after them, he made it before they touched the floor.


MS Sauce was reacting to Ei, which shits on anything J-Man has done

And Sauce does have Tyskonomi


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## JuicyG (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Maybe you should read the manga then.




*I have...can you say that he instant Ama every fight he has been in ? No he hasnt, maybe u should read the manga.

Besides that, if he is able to react in time (not sure), he can use Senpō: Kebari Senbon to block Ama most likely. Susano is taken care of with Yomi Numa

And Jiraiya does have sensing. He said he could sense Nagato but didn't see Nagato*


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## SSMG (Oct 26, 2014)

Nope he used a genjutsu that doesnt come close to itachis tsyuki.. not tsyuki itself.

and jiraiayas sage sensing cant detect the pain that snuck up on him i doubt itll detect ammy.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

@Itachi

Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode didn't grant him sensing and ghost punches.

Also the point of genjutsu is that you can make it realistic or subtle so that it's actually effective on the opponent. Just because Jiraiya has back up doesn't make it auto-counter.



JuicyG said:


> I have...can you say that he instant Ama every fight he has been in ? No he hasnt, maybe u should read the manga.


Sasuke opened with Susano'o + Amaterasu on zetsu fodder. Danzo fight Sasuke has the same mind set. So yeah.


> Besides that, if he is able to react in time (not sure), he can use Senpō: Kebari Senbon to block Ama most likely. Susano is taken care of with Yomi Numa


Why do you keep assuming Sasuke opens with Amaterasu instead of a Susano'o arrow? Danzo fight Sasuke used the arrow more than Amaterasu If I remember correctly. 




> And Jiraiya does have sensing.


No he doesn't.



> He said he could sense Nagato but didn't see Nagato


Panel?


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

*Distance is now 45m to make it more balanced.*



Cognitios said:


> Not before he's roasted stabbed or otherwise dead





> Not from 15 meters, J-man's speed can't keep up even if he does sense it.



Fair points actually, think I'll change the distance to make it more balanced.



> Against a kage level opponent with full knowledge?
> Yeah



Sasuke was told by Jugo that Ei was the Raikage [1] yet he still charged without Susan'oo [2], even though he wanted to get rid of them fast to get to Danzo.



> MS Sauce was reacting to Ei, which shits on anything J-Man has done



Like I said, I don't know how they would compare. Just thought that I'd throw that feat out there.



> And Sauce does have Tyskonomi



I don't think he does, Sasuke just used standard Genjutsu on Danzo.


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> @Itachi
> 
> Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode didn't grant him sensing and ghost punches?



Actually, Pa said that drawing _too little _natural energy prevents one from fully using the sage arts. 

Jiraiya takes in too much, so his Sage Mode is only imperfect in appearance.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> @Itachi
> 
> Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode didn't grant him sensing and ghost punches.




Evidence please?




> Sasuke opened with Susano'o + Amaterasu on zetsu fodder. Danzo fight Sasuke has the same mind set. So yeah.



You talking about when he got EMS? That was to test his abilities and nothing else. 

When Sasuke was fighting Danzo he was bloodlusted, even Karin had noticed his change in Chakra.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

No?

He didn't display the same Sage punches and sensing as Naruto did.


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2014)

Since when did not displaying something mean you can't use it?  Under that logic, Tsunade can't henge...

Sensing is included in any Sage transformation. That's just how it is. I don't think Hashirama has used danger sensing, but we don't say he can't do it...


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## JuicyG (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Panel?




On Sensing.

All sage users gains the ability to sense chakra around them much like sensor types, except they also gain the ability to sense attacks without needing to see them. Nothing is excluding Jiraiya from this advantage either. Jiraiya was an imperfect sage, but that just means his looks were a little fucked up, that is all.
*
You can re-read your material here*


*Sages, who utilise natural energy, can also detect presence of people through their chakra, essentially making them sensors: in fact, the word senjutsu (仙術) uses the same hiragana: せんじゅつ, as the art of scrying (占術), an allusion to the abilities of Sages to sense persons while in Sage Mode*


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> On Sensing.
> 
> All sage users gains the ability to sense chakra around them much like sensor types, except they also gain the ability to sense attacks without needing to see them. Nothing is excluding Jiraiya from this advantage either. Jiraiya was an imperfect sage, but that just means his looks were a little fucked up, that is all.
> *
> You can re-read your material here*



I also checked it when Saikyou first said that Jiraiya didn't have sensing. However, the wiki's not always correct and the users there are in debate over quite a lot of stuff. This stuff seems pretty solid though so we shouldn't dismiss it just yet.

I also don't remember anything said about Jiraiya having lesser abilities than Naruto when it comes to SM.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Since when did not displaying something mean you can't use it?  Under that logic, Tsunade can't henge...


Yeah no. Not even remotely same.


> Sensing is included in any Sage transformation. That's just how it is.



In any complete transformation yes. 




JuicyG said:


> *useless crap*



You just said that Jiraiya used Sage sensing against Nagato and I asked you to give me a panel where that happened and you link me narutowiki?


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

I fail to see how Jiraiya can win even if you increased the distance.
The fact that they are in a enclosed espace mean Jiraiya would have problem with Susano. And I doubt Yomi Numa would be enough for it, even if it's Sage-enhanced.


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## kingcools (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> I doubt Jiraiya can dodge Amaterasu for 15 meters, even with sensing. So when Amaterasu come, he get one-shotted, sadly.



jiraiya goes underground, how does he get amaterasued?


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Yeah no. Not even remotely same.



Actually it is.  

You're just wrong. 



> In any complete transformation yes.



Prove that drawing in too much natural energy causes a loss of sensing. 

You're talking out of your ass.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

kingcools said:


> jiraiya goes underground, how does he get amaterasued?



The question is, "would he have the time to completly dodge Amat?".


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

I still think that Jiraiya can counter a lot in Sasuke's arsenal and has a decent chance at winning, Sasuke has a good chance too though, however.

Jiraiya stops Sasuke's Katon with his various assortment of Katons, Katon: Dai Endan and Katon Gamayu Endan for Sasuke's Gokakyu. With oil, Jiraiya's Katon overwhelms Sasuke's. He uses an Odama Rasengan to take the blunt of Sasuke's Chidori and He dodges Sasuke's Amaterasu with SM sensing.

As for general tactics, Jiraiya uses Kekkai: Tengai Hojin to make sure he doesn't get blindsided by Sasuke, Sasuke is fast. He uses Senpo: Goemon to keep Sasuke and Sasuke's attacks at bay, Amaterasu is a counter to that though.

For Susano'o, Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa. A drugged Jiraiya with hampered Chakra control was able to use Yomi Numa to stop Manda. Jiraiya had excellent Chakra control, he had 5 of Pein's rods inside of him (which disrupt Chakra) and he was still able to use and mold Chakra. Imagine what a Yomi Numa by an un-gimped Jiraiya backed with Senjutsu could do.

Genjutsu is Jiraiya's problem, even if hit by it from afar he could get blitzed by Sasuke before Ma and Pa break him out of it. While Amaterasu could be dodged by Jiraiya, if Sasuke casts it in close range then he gets burnt to a crisp.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

Glad to see Jiraiya's sharp Sage senses doing it's job.

Asura would never be able to sneak up on Sage Naruto.

Waiting for that proof that incomplete Sage Jiraiya is able to use abilities (which he has not himself shown) that only people with complete mastery over can use.


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## SSMG (Oct 26, 2014)

Hey guys if jiraiya had the sage sensing you guy are claiming he had.. how did he get snuck up on and blindsided. by one of the paths?


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2014)

That only people with complete mastery can use? 

Where did that even come from? Jiraiya was caught off guard because sensing isn't passive.


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## SSMG (Oct 26, 2014)

As soon as naruto entered sm during the war he could sense every battle field all at once.. and he could also tell right away that kakashi easnt in tr village during the pain arc ...seems pretty passive to me.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> I still think that Jiraiya can counter a lot in Sasuke's arsenal and has a decent chance at winning, Sasuke has a good chance too though, however.



The field is a bitch for him tho.



> Jiraiya stops Sasuke's Katon with his various assortment of Katons, Katon: Dai Endan and Katon Gamayu Endan for Sasuke's Gokakyu. With oil, Jiraiya's Katon overwhelms Sasuke's. He uses an Odama Rasengan to take the blunt of Sasuke's Chidori and He dodges Sasuke's Amaterasu with SM sensing.



With Full Knowledge, he may not opt for Katon. Odama Rasengan get dodged by someone who kept up with V1 Ei. Ei needed V2 to dodge Amaterasu, it's very unlikely Jiraiya could dodge that.



> As for general tactics, Jiraiya uses Kekkai: Tengai Hojin to make sure he doesn't get blindsided by Sasuke, Sasuke is fast. He uses Senpo: Goemon to keep Sasuke and Sasuke's attacks at bay, Amaterasu is a counter to that though.



The barrier can help him. Goemon get countered by Hawk, which can be useful since the Barrier is high enough for them to fly.



> For Susano'o, Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa. A drugged Jiraiya with hampered Chakra control was able to use Yomi Numa to stop Manda. Jiraiya had excellent Chakra control, he had 5 of Pein's rods inside of him (which disrupt Chakra) and he was still able to use and mold Chakra. Imagine what a Yomi Numa by an un-gimped Jiraiya backed with Senjutsu could do.



Senjutsu: Yomi Numa barely stopped Human Path. Susano is far stronger than fodders snakes and Human Path.



> Genjutsu is Jiraiya's problem, even if hit by it from afar he could get blitzed by Sasuke before Ma and Pa break him out of it. While Amaterasu could be dodged by Jiraiya, if Sasuke casts it in close range then he gets burnt to a crisp.



Agree.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That only people with complete mastery can use?


Naruto and Kabuto who both perfected Sage Mode have shown it. If Jiraiya was able to use Sage sensing like Naruto why didn't he himself just sense where the chameleon (animal path)is hiding?


> Where did that even come from? Jiraiya was caught off guard because sensing isn't passive.


Yes it is. Naruto has only been shown to focus when he wants to track someone down. 

Against Sandaime Raikage he just rushed in with Rasengan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 26, 2014)

I don't think Jiraiya is among the group of Shinobi who can face MS without any knowledge. That group mainly consists of top tiers and a few high tiers.

Sasuke wins.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Saikyou, could you provide evidence for your claim? I don't think there's much evidence to support that Jiraiya has SM sensing but I don't recall it ever being said that Jiraiya didn't have the full set of abilities that other SM users had.



Hachibi said:


> The field is a bitch for him tho.



Mhm, Jiraiya's better off with a terrain that he could use to flank Sasuke, it's quite open.



> With Full Knowledge, he may not opt for Katon. Odama Rasengan get dodged by someone who kept up with V1 Ei. Ei needed V2 to dodge Amaterasu, it's very unlikely Jiraiya could dodge that.



Who are you referring to? 

Yeah, but Ei didn't have SM sensing abilities. It's possible that Jiraiya still wouldn't be able to dodge it if he was too close to Sasuke though.



> The barrier can help him. Goemon get countered by Hawk, which can be useful since the Barrier is high enough for them to fly.



That's true, Sasuke can also summon from the air so he could jump above the waves and summon the hawk instead of risk getting caught by Goemon while on the ground.



> Senjutsu: Yomi Numa barely stopped Human Path. Susano is far stronger than fodders snakes and Human Path.



How would Susan'oo compare to living beings though? It is pretty much just pure Chakra. Also, if Sasuke could use Jutsu from inside of his Susano'o then he could use Chidori Nagashi to counter Yomi Numa, Raiton beats Doton.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

Jiraiya wins. 

Sasuke has more or less the same arsenal as itachi, who was only comparable to base Jirraiya as he stated. Although MS Sasuke is a bit stronger than healthy itachi, but it's not that mach of a different compare to the different SM does to base abilities. 

Also, Amatersu is a jutsu not meant to be taken seriously, only those who fools themselves believe that it can do anything, not to mention with Jiraiya's sensing barrier, his hair, and his sealing jutsu, it really is completely useless. 

His susanoo won't help him with anything at all either because Ma/Pa can use their sound jutsu and make it completely useless, he also has his earth jutsus to attack from underneath, in addition to their combined attack, oil, wind, and fire. There isn't much the susanoo can do really. 

Jiraiya is literally superior to MS Sasuke in everything.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Saikyou, could you provide evidence for your claim? I don't think there's much evidence to support that Jiraiya has SM sensing but I don't recall it ever being said that Jiraiya didn't have the full set of abilities that other SM users had.


Glad to see Jiraiya's sharp Sage senses doing it's job.

Jiraiya in SM just standing there making zero attempts at trying to sense Animal Path, which logically make me believe he isn't capable of it.

And not a single panel in Jiraiya vs Pain fight showed us or even implied that Jiraiya is capable of Sage ghost punches. 

My claim that Jiraiya is not able to access those perks have a lot more behind it than the claim the he is.

Funny how Kishimoto introduces those abilities through a perfect Sage (who appeared later) than an imperfect one who appeared first.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Hey guys if jiraiya had the sage sensing you guy are claiming he had.. how did he get snuck up on and blindsided. by one of the paths?



wasn't the entire village unable to sense that chakra because Nagato kept changing it?
even the Byakugan users?

Naruto as well needed to stab himself with the black rode to be able to sense that chakra. 
anyway, Jiraiya still has the sensing barrier, which is equally good.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Although MS Sasuke is a bit stronger than healthy itachi, but it's not that mach of a different compare to the different SM does to base abilities.



We can't compare MS Sasuke to Healthy Itachi since we don't know what Healthy Itachi is capable of.



> Also, Amatersu is a jutsu not meant to be taken seriously, only those who fools themselves believe that it can do anything, not to mention with Jiraiya's sensing barrier, his hair, and his sealing jutsu, it really is completely useless.



Amaterasu can still burn if it's left festering. Jiraiya's barrier can't do anything when Amaterasu appears on the place the user wants it to appear at. He would be able to defend against Amaterasu with his hair for a few seconds but I don't think his hair could encompass him quickly enough. Also, once Jiraiya does that he's blocking his vision and he's left quite open. Even if he does have SM sensing and has a barrier up, he wouldn't be able to do much in that state.



> His susanoo won't help him with anything at all either because Ma/Pa can use their sound jutsu and make it completely useless, he also has his earth jutsus to attack from underneath, in addition to their combined attack, oil, wind, and fire. There isn't much the susanoo can do really.



First two points are valid. However, Senpo: Goemon is not a Jutsu that penetrates, it's something that burns, it's liquid. It could melt Sasuke's Susano'o but Sasuke could still escape.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Glad to see Jiraiya's sharp Sage senses doing it's job.
> 
> Jiraiya in SM just standing there making zero attempts at trying to sense Animal Path, which logically make me believe he isn't capable of it.
> 
> ...



That makes sense actually. Still, I don't ever remember it being stated that Jiraiya had lesser ability than the other Sages in terms of what he can do with Sage Mode.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

> =Itachі;52062918]We can't compare MS Sasuke to Healthy Itachi since we don't know what Healthy Itachi is capable of.


Healthy itachi is part 1 itachi to me. 



> Amaterasu can still burn if it's left festering. Jiraiya's barrier can't do anything when Amaterasu appears on the place the user wants it to appear at. He would be able to defend against Amaterasu with his hair for a few seconds but I don't think his hair could encompass him quickly enough. Also, once Jiraiya does that he's blocking his vision and he's left quite open. Even if he does have SM sensing and has a barrier up, he wouldn't be able to do much in that state.


He can use his hair to protect himself, and then get rid of that hair. + I don't think he would block his vision as he can still see every time he uses that jutsu. 


> First two points are valid. However, Senpo: Goemon is not a Jutsu that penetrates, it's something that burns, it's liquid. It could melt Sasuke's Susano'o but Sasuke could still escape.



Yeah, I meant it in this regard because supposedly it's too hot. And we know the Susanoo can melt.
In addition, when Kabuto used his water jutsu against Sasuke in their battle, the water did reach Sasuke. (though it was only the rip Susanoo)


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Healthy itachi is part 1 itachi to me.



Don't think he was healthy even then, Itachi felt that he needed to rest after using Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and basic Jutsu like his Suiton.





> He can use his hair to protect himself, and then get rid of that hair. + I don't think he would block his vision as he can still see every time he uses that jutsu.



He can use his hair to protect himself, Amaterasu's not fast enough. 

Evidence for that, please?



> Yeah, I meant it in this regard because supposedly it's too hot. And we know the Susanoo can melt.
> In addition, when Kabuto used his water jutsu against Sasuke in their battle, the water did reach Sasuke. (though it was only the rip Susanoo)



Agreed.

Suiton can still penetrate though, like when Tobirama used Suiton: Suidanha.



The difference is that Senpo: Goemon isn't concentrated, it's a sea.


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## JuicyG (Oct 26, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Hey guys if jiraiya had the sage sensing you guy are claiming he had.. how did he get snuck up on and blindsided. by one of the paths?




Not one piece of evidence says that Jiraiya's sage mode doesnt come with sensing abilities. Not one single source tells us this. Yet, we do know that every sage user gains sensing abilities.

Being an imcomplete sage does not take any of the extra abilities away from you. Jiraiya was not able to properly balance his own chakra with natural energy, resulting in him using an imperfect form of Sage Mode. *As a result of the imbalance, Jiraiya took a number of toad-like traits when using Sage Mode (such as his big hands or his skin).* ( That is the only side effect )


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

> =Itachі;52063074]Don't think he was healthy even then, Itachi felt that he needed to rest after using Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and basic Jutsu like his Suiton.


Because his chakra is low. 



> He can use his hair to protect himself, Amaterasu's not fast enough.
> Evidence for that, please?


mmm, do you mean evidence for him being able to see?
If so,

As you can see, his face is not really covered. @_@

Also, the distance here is  45m, and we know the Amatersu works to 5m only. So, Sasuke will really need to get close to be able to hit
Jiraiya with it. Not to mention he can use clones for extra chance of avoiding it. 


> Agreed.
> Suiton can still penetrate though, like when Tobirama used Suiton: Suidanha.
> 
> 
> The difference is that Senpo: Goemon isn't concentrated, it's a sea.



I don't think Kabuto's attack was focused to be sharp like Tobirama's. It was more like a sea as well.
Glad to see Jiraiya's sharp Sage senses doing it's job.
the middle panel from the bottom.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Because his chakra is low.



He used significantly more MS techniques in his fight with Sasuke though, I still think that he was sick at that time. However, we don't know so we can't assume things.



> mmm, do you mean evidence for him being able to see?
> If so,
> 
> As you can see, his face is not really covered. @_@



Yeah. You're right, but that also is a weakness since Amaterasu would spread to his face in a lot of cases. His face is quite open there.





> Also, the distance here is  45m, and we know the Amatersu works to 5m only. So, Sasuke will really need to get close to be able to hit
> Jiraiya with it. Not to mention he can use clones for extra chance of avoiding it.



Is that from the databook?



> I don't think Kabuto's attack was focused to be sharp like Tobirama's. It was more like a sea as well.
> Glad to see Jiraiya's sharp Sage senses doing it's job.
> the middle panel from the bottom.




Ah, you have a point there.


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## Bonly (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> I fail to see how Jiraiya can win even if you increased the distance.



Increased distance allows Jiraiya better chance to dodge certain attacks as well as set things up bit easier.



> The fact that they are in a enclosed espace mean Jiraiya would have problem with Susano.



Frog call can be used on the fly and as you know sound can get through Susanoo. 



> And I doubt Yomi Numa would be enough for it, even if it's Sage-enhanced.



By itself sure but Base Jiraiya who was drugged and couldn't properly use his chakra was able to make a swamp this big(and hinted it would've sunk the snake had the effects of the drug wore off) and as we saw against Human path had his legs sucked right in and he couldn't move. With the short area of the battle field they are on as well as the AoE the swamp can take up, the swamp would be enough to distract Sasuke can cause him to slow down or stop an attack and waste some chakra to get free.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Increased distance allows Jiraiya better chance to dodge certain attacks as well as set things up bit easier.



Never said otherwise.



> Frog call can be used on the fly and as you know sound can get through Susanoo.



It won't last fr long. Sure, it would buy time, but not enough to gain a overwhelming advantage.



> By itself sure but Base Jiraiya who was drugged and couldn't properly use his chakra was able to make a swamp this big(and hinted it would've sunk the snake had the effects of the drug wore off) and as we saw against Human path had his legs sucked right in and he couldn't move. With the short area of the battle field they are on as well as the AoE the swamp can take up, the swamp would be enough to distract Sasuke can cause him to slow down or stop an attack and waste some chakra to get free.



Sasuke was show to jump or at least float in his Susano.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 26, 2014)

Pretty sure Jiraiya loses this one.

*In my opinion:*

Sage Naruto _(War Arc)_ = Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke _(no Perfect Susanoo)_ > Sage Naruto _(Pain Arc)_ = Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke _(Kage Summit Arc)_ > Sage Jiraiya ≥ Tsunade = Orochimaru


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## Dominus (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Also, the distance here is  45m, and we know the Amatersu works to 5m only.



[sp][/sp]


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## JuicyG (Oct 26, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> [sp][/sp]




Sage sensing takes care of any Amaterasu attempts. Also hair senpo can stalemate it in the air.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

> =Itachі;52063273]He used significantly more MS techniques in his fight with Sasuke though, I still think that he was sick at that time. However, we don't know so we can't assume things.


True, he used more in his fight with Sasuke, but because he exhuasted himself, and he died because of that, unlike in the battle at the hotel where he retreated. 



> Yeah. You're right, but that also is a weakness since Amaterasu would spread to his face in a lot of cases. His face is quite open there.


I don't think it would spread that fast, it did not against madara at least. And even when Sasuke used it against A, it stayed on his arm the whole time. 




> Is that from the databook?


Yes, it is.



Man, debating you is so much easier than debating itachi-tards. It's hilarious. :rofl


----------



## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

I have failed... must commit seppuku after this.



JuicyG said:


> Sage sensing takes care of any Amaterasu attempts. Also hair senpo can stalemate it in the air.



He doesn't have Sage sensing and Susano'o arrow pierces right through his fucking hair. Why do you keep ignoring this.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> [sp][/sp]



Well, I don't know the exact distance in the manga. 
and even if that's so
jump or at least float
the Amatersu, apparently, had to cross the distance here, so still there is a time to avoid it.
Even though I don't think it would matter even if it landed honestly.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Wait, are you seriously taking "close" as 5 meters? 

The word "close" is a vague word.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't think it would spread that fast, it did not against madara at least. And even when Sasuke used it against A, it stayed on his arm the whole time.



Fair enough. Jiraiya's method would defend well against Amaterasu the first time but after that if Sasuke uses Amaterasu he'd just aim it at his face.



> Yes, it is.



It doesn't say anything about its range being 5m there though. Did it specify in the Databook that "Close" means 5 meters?



> Man, debating you is so much easier than debating itachi-tards. It's hilarious. :rofl



Are you trying to say that I'm dumber than them or that I'm more pleasant than them?


----------



## Bonly (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Never said otherwise.



Never hinted you did say otherwise. 



> It won't last fr long. Sure, it would buy time, but not enough to gain a overwhelming advantage.



Do you have proof it won't last long enough for Jiraiya to get the advantage?



> Sasuke was show to jump or at least float in his Susano.



Sure he can jump but Sasuke has to actually jump before Jiraiya makes the seal and jutsu pops up which was damn near instant. If he's already caught in the jutsu that's not gonna work without wasting chakra to get out of the swamp


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## JuicyG (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> _*He doesn't have Sage sensing*_ and Susano'o arrow pierces right through his fucking hair. Why do you keep ignoring this.



He does. Nothing has told us he doesnt. Being imperfect sage doesnt take sensing abilities away from him because if that were the case we as fans would have been informed. Ama is stalemated with hair senpo, Susano is taken care of with Yomi Numa before arrow gets off.

*Your point is moot since sensing isn't a passive ability, you have to actively use it. Chapter 433, Hungry Ghost Realm surprises SM Naruto, Naruto didn't sense that it was brought back to life*

jump or at least float

*Just like Fukasaku and Shima, they showed that they too were sensors in their rematch with Pein, but didn't sense Pein sneaking up on them either because they, like Jiraiya, weren't trying to sense anyone*


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## Dominus (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Well, I don't know the exact distance in the manga.
> and even if that's so
> jump or at least float
> the Amatersu, apparently, had to cross the distance here, so still there is a time to avoid it.
> Even though I don't think it would matter even if it landed honestly.



You can't figure out on your own that the distance between them is more than 5m? 
You can compare the distance between them and Sasuke's height.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Do you have proof it won't last long enough for Jiraiya to get the advantage?



A weaker Sasuke managed to break Tsukuyomi (albeit, one which wasn't at full power). Sure, Frog Call is a different type of genjutsu, but I doubt its effect gonna last for long.



> Sure he can jump but Sasuke has to actually jump before Jiraiya makes the seal and jutsu pops up which was damn near instant. If he's already caught in the jutsu that's not gonna work without wasting chakra to get out of the swamp



Pretty sure he can dodge it in time in most situation thanks to the Sharingan's pre-cog. There's also the Hawk to get Sasuke out of that situation.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> A weaker Sasuke managed to break Tsukuyomi (albeit, one which wasn't at full power). Sure, Frog Call is a different type of genjutsu, but I doubt its effect gonna last for long.



Tsukuyomi is a Sharingan based Genjutsu, Itachi said that only a Sharingan user with his own blood could break out of it. [1] They are not comparable, Sasuke had the perfect conditions to break out of it. Granted, we still don't know if Itachi let him out of it or not.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

> =Itachі;52063586]Fair enough. Jiraiya's method would defend well against Amaterasu the first time but after that if Sasuke uses Amaterasu he'd just aim it at his face.



Perhaps. 


> It doesn't say anything about its range being 5m there though. Did it specify in the Databook that "Close" means 5 meters?


Yes, it did.



> Are you trying to say that I'm dumber than them or that I'm more pleasant than them?



The latter obviously. 
this the first time I feel like it's a debate. Usually it's only waste of time, no matter what evidence you put, the debate does not go any where.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> He does. Nothing has told us he doesnt.


Read my post. Jiraiya had a perfect opportunity to sense where the animal path was hiding, but he didn't, because he couldn't.


> Being imperfect sage doesnt take sensing abilities away from him because if that were the case we as fans would have been informed.


Of course it doesn't take them away because he never had them. If Jiraiya was capable of Sage sensing fans would have been informed.

Please explain to me why was Frog Kumite and Sage sensing introduced through perfect Sage who appeared later instead of an imperfect Sage (who you say possessed those abilities) who appeared before?

I'm waiting.



> Ama is stalemated with hair senpo,


Only if Jiraiya had reactions to pull that off.



> Susano is taken care of with Yomi Numa before arrow gets off.


Sasuke fires of an arrow before Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa and what is Chidori Nagashi? 



> Your point is moot since sensing isn't a passive ability, you have to actively use it. Chapter 433, Hungry Ghost Realm surprises SM Naruto, Naruto didn't sense that it was brought back to life



Holy shit could you be any more wrong.

Had Preta jumped Naruto from behind his back you would be right, but that didn't happen did it?

Naruto would have to been focusing/searching/tracking for the dead Pain in order for his Sage sensing to alert him. Preta was suddenly brought back to life. Sage sensing wouldn't alert him of something like that. Way different scenario. That doesn't compare at all to the Naruto vs Sandaime for example.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Tsukuyomi is a Sharingan based Genjutsu, Itachi said that only a Sharingan user with his own blood could break out of it. [1] They are not comparable, Sasuke had the perfect conditions to break out of it. Granted, *we still don't know if Itachi let him out of it or not*.





You're right about the different though, even with EMS, Sasuke was still unable to free himself without help.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> You're right about the different though, even with EMS, Sasuke was still unable to free himself without help.



Who are you and what did you do to Hussain?

Also, SM Mugen Onsa > Frog Call.


----------



## JuicyG (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> If Jiraiya was capable of Sage sensing fans would have been informed.



We are informed, that he had sensing abilities. Sage mode grants _ALL_ users sensing abilities, not just some. Imperfect only means he couldn't balance the natural charkas perfectly, thus changing his appearance. *It has nothing to do with the abilities.  *




saikyou said:


> Only if Jiraiya had reactions to pull that off.



45 meters. I can see that happening since he has sensing abilities 




saikyou said:


> Sasuke fires of an arrow before Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa



Yomi Numa takes only 2 hand seals to complete, it happens before arrow gets off. Forcing the accuracy off the arrow completely off target. Also a full powered Saged Yomi Numa could K.O Susano






saikyou said:


> Had Preta jumped Naruto from behind his back you would be right, but that didn't happen did it?
> 
> Naruto would have to been focusing/searching/tracking for the dead Pain in order for his Sage sensing to alert him. Preta was suddenly brought back to life. Sage sensing wouldn't alert him of something like that. Way different scenario. That doesn't compare at all to the Naruto vs Sandaime for example.



No. If sensing was passive, Naruto would have known the entire time that Preta was brought back. He would have sensed it. Also, you must have not seen my other point of * Fukasaku and Shima, they showed that they too were sensors in their rematch with Pein, but didn't sense Pein sneaking up on them either because they, like Jiraiya, weren't trying to sense anyone.*


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> Yes, it did.



Valid evidence but Amaterasu has been used outside the range of 5 metres so it's not reliable now. Perhaps at the time though.



> The latter obviously.
> this the first time I feel like it's a debate. Usually it's only waste of time, no matter what evidence you put, the debate does not go any where.



Thanks.



Hussain said:


> You're right about the different though, even with EMS, Sasuke was still unable to free himself without help.



Ah, thanks.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> A weaker Sasuke managed to break Tsukuyomi (albeit, one which wasn't at full power). Sure, Frog Call is a different type of genjutsu, but I doubt its effect gonna last for long.



That's not proof that it won't last long enough for Jiraiya to get an advantage though.  



> Pretty sure he can dodge it in time in most situation thanks to the Sharingan's pre-cog.



Jiraiya has clones and Ma has a jutsu that can block LoS along with Jiraiya that has jutsu to use that would let Sasuke not see his hands. With one handseal and all these options available to him, I don't think a simple "Sharingan pre-cog" is much of an valid answer to say Sasuke would dodge it in most situations in this case.



> There's also the Hawk to get Sasuke out of that situation.



How does the Hawk help Sasuke out of the situation if he's caught? What speed feats has the hawk shown? What has the Hawk shown period to suggest it won't get knocked out of the skies and into the ground where the swamp can be used?


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## Ghost (Oct 27, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> We are informed, that he had sensing abilities. Sage mode grants _ALL_ users sensing abilities, not just some. Imperfect only means he couldn't balance the natural charkas perfectly, thus changing his appearance. *It has nothing to do with the abilities.  *


This fucking guy.

You still haven't explained to me why Jiraiya didn't try to sense where Animal path is if he was capable of it and why was Frog Kumite and sensing introduced through Naruto (perfect Sage, appeared later) rather than Jiraiya (imperfect Sage, introduced earlier).

You have nothing to back up your claim while I have. 




> 45 meters. I can see that happening since he has sensing abilities



He doesn't have Sage sensing as I have already pointed multiple times with evidence supporting my claim. 





> Yomi Numa takes only 2 hand seals to complete, it happens before arrow gets off. Forcing the accuracy off the arrow completely off target. Also a full powered Saged Yomi Numa could K.O Susano



Yomi Numa is not happening before Sasuke fire of an arrow.  They are so fast Kakashi barely managed to Kamui one.

You do know that with Sharingan Sasuke is able to see Jiraiya forming the seals before they happen and notice the Doton seals which he can prepare for. 

And how is Yomi Numa going to "K.O" Susano'o? Sasuke can immediately nullify it with Raiton.





> No. If sensing was passive, Naruto would have known the entire time that Preta was brought back. He would have sensed it.



No. Sage Mode's danger sensing is not the same as looking for people by searching for their chakra which Naruto should've done in order to notice that Preta has been revived.



> Also, you must have not seen my other point of * Fukasaku and Shima, they showed that they too were sensors in their rematch with Pein, but didn't sense Pein sneaking up on them either because they, like Jiraiya, weren't trying to sense anyone.*



Nowhere during the Naruto vs Pain were the elder frogs sneaked up on.


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## ARGUS (Oct 27, 2014)

Jiraiya wins this high diff 

 - He doesnt need to show any SM sensing feats to counter amaterasu when Ma and Pa can sense the built up and ma can use her dust cloud to block sasukes LoS, or jiraiya can simplyuse his smoke bombs to counter the jutsu, 

 - Sasuke is then paralysed by Frog Call  which can be done rather easily, and would make sasuke unable to use his susanoo thus allowing jiraiya to finish him off with a SM Chou Odama Rasengan (COR), 

 - Resorting to CQC would result in sasuke getting pulverised just how ningendo did in canon, jiraiya is still most likely faster and his striking force is leagues above sasuke

 - SM sensing also enables jiraiya to sense any oncoming genjutsu and therefore evade eye contact, not that it matters since ma and pa can break jiraiya out of any genjutsu rather quickly and would be able to sense the chakra disturbance immediately 

 - Having frog song and frog call here, as well as the ability to bust any susanoo below V3 through his SM COR and Rasengan barrages means that jiraiya is not losing this


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## Ghost (Oct 27, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> He doesnt need to show any SM sensing feats to counter amaterasu when Ma and Pa can sense the built up


Neither of them has any feats that would indicate they can sense Amaterasu. Both Amaterasu and Susano'o arrow hit if Sasuke wants.


> and ma can use her dust cloud to block sasukes LoS, or jiraiya can simplyuse his smoke bombs to counter the jutsu,


 




> - Sasuke is then paralysed by Frog Call  which can be done rather easily, and would make sasuke unable to use his susanoo thus allowing jiraiya to finish him off with a SM Chou Odama Rasengan (COR),


Your "argument" relies on the fact that Sasuke will be just standing and doing nothing the whole fight which allows Jiraiya to pull of this fantastic fanfic you've written. 


> - Resorting to CQC would result in sasuke getting pulverised just how ningendo did in canon, jiraiya is still most likely faster and his striking force is leagues above sasuke



Susano'o beats the ever living shit out of Jiraiya.



> - *SM sensing also enables jiraiya to sense any oncoming genjutsu and therefore evade eye contact,* not that it matters since ma and pa can break jiraiya out of any genjutsu rather quickly and would be able to sense the chakra disturbance immediately


what the fuck is this ??? lmao He doesn't even have Sage sensing.



> - Having frog song and frog call here, as well as the ability to bust any susanoo below V3 through his SM COR and Rasengan barrages means that jiraiya is not losing this



Having Amaterasu and Susano'o here, as well as the ability to see where Jiraiya is going to evade pretty much allow Sasuke to one shot him.


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## Legendary Itachi (Oct 27, 2014)

It will surely be interesting to see Jiraiya turns into a frog statue if Ma or Pa gets hit by Amaterasu.  

Poor Jiraiya nearly gets caught off guard by Human Path without Ma, let alone Sage sensing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

Jiraiya doesn't have sage sensing. Otherwise he'd locate chamelon himself after he activated SM, he was still acting clueless.

You may argue that sage sensing is a retcon, an ability Kishimoto implemented into sage mode after Naruto learned it, but it still won't apply to Jiraiya, even if there is no reason for him not to have it(maybe he didn't have it because he wasn't a perfect sage).


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 27, 2014)

I just wanted to add, i never seen a dust cloud being utitlized on a uchiha threw out the entire manga, they only ever used it to break pains shared vision.

Naruto fought madara,sasuke, and itachi and never once utilized a dust cloud or smoke bomb.

 so while we as the readers know it's  a logical move theres no proof that they would even resort to this stragety and aside from that madara and itachi seemed to preform well in the dust clouds they where in.


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## ARGUS (Oct 27, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Neither of them has any feats that would indicate they can sense Amaterasu. Both Amaterasu and Susano'o arrow hit if Sasuke wants.


Lol what are you on about, 
Ma and pa have shown sensing feats in multiple occasions 
Ma in particular is stated to have excelllent sensing feats meaning that she senses the built up for amatearsu with utmost ease, and then uses the dust cloud to counter either amatearsu or susanoo arrow, 


 




> Your "argument" relies on the fact that Sasuke will be just standing and doing nothing the whole fight which allows Jiraiya to pull of this fantastic fanfic you've written.


Lol you call my argument fanfic, yet all ur relying on and keep on spouting is that jiraiya has no sensing, well guess what? my response doesnt even revolve around jiraiyas sensing, 
What exactly can sasuke do here? 
alll of his MS techniques are countered by jiraiya, and he needs to use his susanoo to prevent himself from getting wrecked by COR, 
not that it matters since FrogCall renders his susanoo moot, and he has no way of breaking the genjutsu either before jiraiya kills him 



> Susano'o beats the ever living shit out of Jiraiya.



Lol no it doesnt, Frog Call counters it hard, 
so does Yomi Numa which immobilise sasuke and his susanoo, 
and Lol at susanoo landing even a single hit on him, before sasuke coughs blood, 
not to mention that his precog skills and reflexxes are vastly dropped once he goes under the strain of MS, 



> what the fuck is this ??? lmao He doesn't even have Sage sensing.


Read before u spout the same shit again, 
Ma and Pa have the sensing, whether you like it or not, and they can enable jiraiya to counter sasukes jutsus 



> Having Amaterasu and Susano'o here, as well as the ability to see where Jiraiya is going to evade pretty much allow Sasuke to one shot him.


Your argument just revolves around you whining that jiraiya has no sensing feats, but ma and pa can still sense just fine, 

 - Amaterasu is sensed by the toads and the LoS is blocked through dust cloud or smoke bombs, all that the jutsu is doing is straining sasuke 

 - Susanoo is also rendered useless in front of sound genjutsus, as Frog Call paralyses sasuke and then makes him lose it , thus allowing jiraiya to kill him before he does any thing whatsoever, 

 - Or Jiraiya can just run around and simply outlast sasuke here, who needs his defense to prevent himself from getting killed, and the side effects of using it just bites him in the ass


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## Hachibi (Oct 27, 2014)

Bonly said:


> That's not proof that it won't last long enough for Jiraiya to get an advantage though.



I never said he would get a advantage actually. I said he won't gain a overwhelming/important one.



> Jiraiya has clones and Ma has a jutsu that can block LoS along with Jiraiya that has jutsu to use that would let Sasuke not see his hands. With one handseal and all these options available to him, I don't think a simple "Sharingan pre-cog" is much of an valid answer to say Sasuke would dodge it in most situations in this case.



Sasuke can blow up the dust with a Katon. Sure, Jiraiya would counter that with a Katon on his own, but it may or may not break it.



> How does the Hawk help Sasuke out of the situation if he's caught? What speed feats has the hawk shown? What has the Hawk shown period to suggest it won't get knocked out of the skies and into the ground where the swamp can be used?



The hawk was able to dodge Danzo's Futon.


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## ARGUS (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya doesn't have sage sensing. Otherwise he'd locate chamelon himself after he activated SM, he was still acting clueless.


Not a good example at all, when even KCM  naruto failed to locate the chameleon, 



Bkprince33 said:


> I just wanted to add, i never seen a dust cloud being utitlized on a uchiha threw out the entire manga, they only ever used it to break pains shared vision.


Dust cloud was never used on an uchiha because ma never fought an uchiha in the manga doesnt mean that the jutsu wont work
Rinnegans vision can still see chakra, and works on a similar basis to the sharingan, 
if it blocked the rinnegans vision, as well as its entire network then sharingan would also be blocked and sasuke wont be seeing shit 



> Naruto fought madara,sasuke, and itachi and never once utilized a dust cloud or smoke bomb.


Again not a good example at all, when neither of them used amaterasu on him, nor did he have any need to use it against them 



> so while we as the readers know it's  a logical move theres no proof that they would even resort to this stragety and aside from that madara and itachi seemed to preform well in the dust clouds they where in.


No it is more than logical to use it, when it blocks the LoS just fine, 
Madara and Itachi saw through mere debris there is a big difference,


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 27, 2014)

Ma and pa sensing is doing jack shyt as op already specified they have no knowledge on the ms techniques, they sense the build up ok then what?? How will they know what to prepare for


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## ARGUS (Oct 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Ma and pa sensing is doing jack shyt as op already specified they have no knowledge on the ms techniques, they sense the build up ok then what?? How will they know what to prepare for



they would be able to tell that the chakra is focused on the eyes, therefore to counter it you block their vision so that the jutsu is stopped from being executed, they dont need to know the exact mechanics to counter it


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## TheGreen1 (Oct 27, 2014)

And what counter does Sasuke have to Frog Song? We know that Sound Based Senjutsu Genjutsu works *wonders* on Sasuke. He's helpless as a kitten. Plus, Jiraiya just needs to outlast Sasuke as this is MS Sasuke, he's going to be feeling the effects of overuse of his MS soon enough. And Sasuke does NOT have a counter to Senpo: Goemon unless you count his incomplete Susano'o, and that's going to be wrecked. I give this to J-Man due to more experience, and better matchup. Sasuke has no answer for Frog Song, and that's going to end him.


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## Legendary Itachi (Oct 27, 2014)

Actually Sasuke just needs his hawk to dodge all shits Jiraiya throw at him and ignore all those poor smoke on sky. 

And what's Jiraiya counter to Kirin?


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 27, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Not a good example at all, when even KCM  naruto failed to locate the chameleon,
> 
> 
> Dust cloud was never used on an uchiha because ma never fought an uchiha in the manga doesnt mean that the jutsu wont work
> ...



But naruto fought multiple uchiha and never bothered with this method even tho he could summon ma and pa.

The rinnengon might work different for nagato since he's  not a uchiha, as madara continued to slay the alliance army threw the smoke and itachi hit nagato with totsuka threw the smoke, the theory you have makes sense but the manga shows it different.

Kcm naruto with knowledge on amatarasu did not attempt to block any los when itachi prepped it. Despite nagato warning them.

It looked like a giant dustcloud to me but ok you have scans?

And as i already pointed out sensing means jack shyt when they have no knowledge anyway, they sense the build up ok ? Then what? How will they know what to prepare for?

And yet we never seen this done on panel, ill concede this point when i have a scan of sm naruto or sm jiraiya attempting this against a uchiha if kcm naruto makes no attempt to block los with knowledge im not gonna be generous enough  to say ma and pa will block it without knowledge.


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## ARGUS (Oct 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> But naruto fought multiple uchiha and never bothered with this method even tho he could summon ma and pa.


Its simple because he never needed to use the smoke bombs nor did he need to summon ma and pa during the entire war, 
just because he never used it doesnt mean that dust clouds or smoke bombs wont work

not to mention that neither of the uchihas he fought had amaterasu, and naruto now has sseveral counters to it, so it doesnt matter anyway



> T*he rinnengon might work different for nagato since he's  not a uchiha, *as madara continued to slay the alliance army threw the smoke and itachi hit nagato with totsuka threw the smoke, the theory you have makes sense but the manga shows it different.


Nope, Pein and the rinnnegan can still see chakra, *he was able to see the chakra focused on tsunades feat *
and *was also able to see through the barriers, *
hell  when even the uchiha bros. were unable to
dust cloud however completely blinded the peins shared vision, meaning that the LoS of sasuke gets blocked just fine and he wont be able to use amaterasu properly 

and as for itachi, again, it was just debris



> Kcm naruto with knowledge on amatarasu did not attempt to block any los when itachi prepped it. Despite nagato warning them.


His speed alone shits on the jutsu, and his cloak can also just extract the flames away, 



> It looked like a giant dustcloud to me but ok you have scans?


i shouldve used scans in my first post smh
well here it is 
*was also able to see through the barriers, *
the dust cloud even blocked gamabunta, its huge, 



> And as i already pointed out sensing means jack shyt when they have no knowledge anyway, they sense the build up ok ? Then what? How will they know what to prepare for?


Actually it does mean alot, since they would be able to sense the chakra focused on his eye, meaning that they would be able to prepare for the jutsu well before the flames are spawned, 
and to counter an LoS jutsu, they just use block it, 
they dont need to have full intel on the jutsus mechanics to counter it, when they would know tht sasukes jutsu is based entirely on his sight, and therefore just block it before any damage is made



> And yet we never seen this done on panel, ill concede this point when i have a scan of sm naruto or sm jiraiya attempting this against a uchiha if kcm naruto makes no attempt to block los with knowledge im not gonna be generous enough  to say ma and pa will block it without knowledge.


Again, Just because they didnt attempt it, doesnt mean that the jutsu wont work, 
thats just absurd, because by this logic i can say that FRS cant bust ribcage because it was never used on it, Lol

going by feats, and logic, smoke bombs and dust clouds will block his LoS meaning that the jutsu would be countered just fine


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Not a good example at all, when even KCM  naruto failed to locate the chameleon,



KCM Naruto's sensing is different than Sage mode. It is more primal, he can sense ill intent. Thats why he was able to sense the general direction Nagato was coming from but he got caught offguard by the invisible chamelon. 

Jiraiya doesn't have sage sensing, otherwise he would rely on it to locate the chamelon.


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## ARGUS (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> KCM Naruto's sensing is different than Sage mode. It is more primal, he can sense ill intent. Thats why he was able to sense the general direction Nagato was coming from but he got caught offguard by the invisible chamelon.


Nope, KCM naruto can still sense regardless of his sensing being more focused on intents, 
*naruto was able to sense the hokages coming though his KCM mode*, no matter how you look at it, he can still use normal chakra sensing methdos to locate things, 
chameleon is different when it most likely has abilities to eliminate its chakra, which is why ma/pa as well as kcm naruto were unable to sense it  


> Jiraiya doesn't have sage sensing, otherwise he would rely on it to locate the chamelon.


Doesnt matter, when ma and pa can still sense


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Nope, KCM naruto can still sense regardless of his sensing being more focused on intents,
> *naruto was able to sense the hokages coming though his KCM mode*, no matter how you look at it, he can still use normal chakra sensing methdos to locate things,
> chameleon is different when it most likely has abilities to eliminate its chakra, which is why ma/pa as well as kcm naruto were unable to sense it


Yeah, I meant to say "emotions" rather than just ill intent. 
*naruto was able to sense the hokages coming though his KCM mode*
KCM can't do this.

The bottom line is, KCM's sensing isn't the same as sage sensing.




> Doesnt matter, when ma and pa can still sense



Sure. Its usefulness would depend on the situation though.


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## ARGUS (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, I meant to say "emotions" rather than just ill intent.
> *naruto was able to sense the hokages coming though his KCM mode*
> KCM can't do this.
> 
> The bottom line is, KCM's sensing isn't the same as sage sensing.



KCM can still sense, 
just because its chakra seensing isnt as adept as SM, doesnt mean that it cant sense chakra at all, not to mention that naruto being able to sense the hokages kilometeres away can still make that scenario a possibility, albeit not to its full extent
not that it matters since normal chakra sensing clearly didnt work on the chemeleon though, so SM naruto most likely wont sense it either



> Sure. Its usefulness would depend on the situation though.


Yes,


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> KCM can still sense,
> just because its chakra seensing isnt as adept as SM, doesnt mean that it cant sense chakra at all, not to mention that naruto being able to sense the hokages kilometeres away can still make that scenario a possibility, albeit not to its full extent
> not that it matters since normal chakra sensing clearly didnt work on the chemeleon though, so SM naruto most likely wont sense it either
> 
> ...


No one actually tried to sense the chamelon. 

Naruto sensed Nagato, but wasn't expecting him to hide inside an invisible creature.


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## Bonly (Oct 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> I never said he would get a advantage actually. I said he won't gain a overwhelming/important one.



Well no shit you didn't say that, I know that, I just don't feel like typing "overwhelming advantage" every time I mention this. What I am waiting for is some proof that Frog call won't last long enough for Jiraiya to get an "overwhelming advantage"(darn you ) like you suggest he can't. 



> Sasuke can blow up the dust with a Katon. Sure, Jiraiya would counter that with a Katon on his own, but it may or may not break it.



Good for Sasuke, he can blow away the dust but you know what Sasuke can't do? Blow away the dust before Jiraiya makes *one handseal* to use the swamp.



> The hawk was able to dodge Danzo's Futon.



Welp that's a speed feat, not an impressive one but one nonetheless. Still not seeing how it can help if Sasuke is already caught nor suggest it won't get knocked out of the skies and into the ground where the swamp can be used or anything.


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## Raiken (Oct 27, 2014)

Don't most people have SM Jiraiya around MS Itachi's level.
And we all know MS Itachi > MS Sasuke.

:^)

Although, most people have Jiraiya = Orochimaru, and it was stated that Itachi > Orochimaru.

Overall I think the scaling is something like this:

MS Itachi = Minato => SM Jiraiya = Orochimaru "w/ Arms" => MS Sasuke > Base Jiraiya = Orochimaru "w/o Arms"

I believe it's a really close fight and could go either way, but If I had to place a bet, I'd bet in favour of SM Jiraiya coming out in the end over MS Sasuke.


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## Hachibi (Oct 27, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Well no shit you didn't say that, I know that, I just don't feel like typing "overwhelming advantage" every time I mention this. What I am waiting for is some proof that Frog call won't last long enough for Jiraiya to get an "overwhelming advantage"(darn you ) like you suggest he can't.




Well, because Frog Call's effect doesn't last as long as White Rage's, which Sasuke was able to let Susano exist in for a moment.



> Good for Sasuke, he can blow away the dust but you know what Sasuke can't do? Blow away the dust before Jiraiya makes *one handseal* to use the swamp.



Then he will get out with Chidori Nagashi, then use his sword to jump higher and summon a hawk.



> Welp that's a speed feat, not an impressive one but one nonetheless. Still not seeing how it can help if Sasuke is already caught nor suggest it won't get knocked out of the skies and into the ground where the swamp can be used or anything.



As long as he isn't deep enough in it, he can create a hole in it with Chidori Nagashi, the hawk grab him and he put himself on top of it.

As for not getting knocked out, Sasuke can do this


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## Bonly (Oct 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Well, because Frog Call's effect doesn't last as long as White Rage's, which Sasuke was able to let Susano exist in for a moment.



Sasuke had Susanoo up before the effects of white rage actually happened, during the effects he barely had the Susanoo aura around him and even that was disappearing. Not sure what's that suppose to mean besides him losing his Susanoo when Frog call goes up. Also by any chance do you have any proof that Frog call doesn't last as long as White Rage which lasted a few seconds? 



> Then he will get out with Chidori Nagashi, then use his sword to jump higher and summon a hawk.
> 
> As long as he isn't deep enough in it, he can create a hole in it with Chidori Nagashi, the hawk grab him and he put himself on top of it.



"the swamp would be enough to distract Sasuke and cause him to slow down or *stop an attack and waste some chakra to get free*."

Glad you agree. 



> As for not getting knocked out, Sasuke can do this



Link came out to be an 403 forbidden link so I can't see it but since it's from chapter 680 I'm assuming you're referring to Sasuke putting Susanoo around the hawk, the same Susanoo that's not gonna stop frog call which stop two summonings right in their tracks which means the hawk is gonna fall down soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo yeah.


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## Hachibi (Oct 27, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Sasuke had Susanoo up before the effects of white rage actually happened, during the effects he barely had the Susanoo aura around him and even that was disappearing. Not sure what's that suppose to mean besides him losing his Susanoo when Frog call goes up. Also by any chance do you have any proof that Frog call doesn't last as long as White Rage which lasted a few seconds?



By counting the number of panel:Frog Call lasted 3 pages while White Rage lasted 3 pages and 2 panel.



> "the swamp would be enough to distract Sasuke and cause him to slow down or *stop an attack and waste some chakra to get free*."
> 
> Glad you agree.



I call manipulation 



> Link came out to be an 403 forbidden link so I can't see it but since it's from chapter 680 I'm assuming you're referring to Sasuke putting Susanoo around the hawk, the same Susanoo that's not gonna stop frog call which stop two summonings right in their tracks which means the hawk is gonna fall down soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo yeah.



Ah, you were talking about Frog Call all along. Then he switch for a Snake if the Hawk get caught. After all, it has been show in the war that he kept his snake summon.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 27, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Its simple because he never needed to use the smoke bombs nor did he need to summon ma and pa during the entire war,
> just because he never used it doesnt mean that dust clouds or smoke bombs wont work
> 
> not to mention that neither of the uchihas he fought had amaterasu, and naruto now has sseveral counters to it, so it doesnt matter anyway
> ...



My argument is not that it won't  work but that if they didn't  attempt it then they won't  attempt it now, especially with zero knowledge ma and pa doesn't know amatarasu  mechanics as well as we do, we can't  debate with the characters as if they where us.


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## ARGUS (Oct 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> My argument is not that it won't  work but that if they didn't  attempt it then they won't  attempt it now, especially with zero knowledge ma and pa doesn't know amatarasu  mechanics as well as we do, we can't  debate with the characters as if they where us.



why wouldnt they? 
Once they sense the built up of chakra on the eyes, they would be able to tell that the jutsu is based on sasukes LoS meaning that blocking it would just prevent the attack from even being executed, 
Jiraiya and the toads are not stupid, they would rather stop the technique from even happening before countering it with extreme measures


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 27, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> why wouldnt they?
> Once they sense the built up of chakra on the eyes, they would be able to tell that the jutsu is based on sasukes LoS meaning that blocking it would just prevent the attack from even being executed,
> Jiraiya and the toads are not stupid, they would rather stop the technique from even happening before countering it with extreme measures



It's  a stretch to say they would immediately deduce amatarasu mechanics based on chakra build up in sasuke's  eyes, during there first encounter with pain they did not show advance deduction skills and where stumped quite a few times.

I do agree dust cloud works but we have to look at the way the fight would pan out, i believe ma will sense the build up but will not activley deduce amatarasu mechanics and come up with a plan to counter it, all before sasuke uses the technique.

Your scenerio kind of takes away that wow factor and sounds more like a full knowledge scenerio. 

while i agree kcm had the counters to amatarasu and tsukiyomi, bee sure didn't, if naruto wanted to save bee wouldn't  your smoke bomb scenerio make sense since he would protect bee as well.

Then after we have naruto saying did he miss? Which  indicates further he didn't prepare to defend against the technique really.

So they don't  have to be stupid to not be able to deduce a jutsu mechanics and counter it all before sasuke can fire off a jutsu which is considered fast in the first place.


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## Bonly (Oct 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> By counting the number of panel:Frog Call lasted 3 pages while White Rage lasted 3 pages and 2 panel.



Wrong. What you mean to say is that the summonings were caught by Frog call for three pages before *they were attacked* and less focus was on them. Just because they were attacked after being under for three pages doesn't mean Frog Call doesn't last longer aka not proof. 



> I call manipulation



I'd call it genjutsu  



> Ah, you were talking about Frog Call all along. Then he switch for a Snake if the Hawk get caught. After all, it has been show in the war that he kept his snake summon.



Ah that's right the snakes he never summoned after his Hebi days bar Aoda the one time. The chances of him actually summoning a snake aren't high in the least bit and to add salt to the wound you mentioned the Hawk as way for Sasuke to get away from the swamp yet now you mention Sasuke bringing out a snake which is pretty much just gonna get caught in the swamp and lead back to square one.


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## ARGUS (Oct 28, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> It's  a stretch to say they would immediately deduce amatarasu mechanics based on chakra build up in sasuke's  eyes, during there first encounter with pain they did not show advance deduction skills and where stumped quite a few times.
> 
> I do agree dust cloud works but we have to look at the way the fight would pan out, i believe ma will sense the build up but will not activley deduce amatarasu mechanics and come up with a plan to counter it, all before sasuke uses the technique.
> 
> ...



Youre overthinking things far too much,
by ur logic, nagato could have used preta on amatearsu well before the flames were spawned, yet he used ST, does that make  preta an invalid counter? no it doesnt, 
this is just ridiculous 

thats why its best to go with feats, where u should just look at the jutsus mechanics and its indication in the manga, 

fact is that smoke  bombs or dust clouds have shwon to be able to block the LoS 
meaning that jiraiya does just that and counters amaterasu, 
i have already explained why he would immediately resort to such measures 
no need to overthink this


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## Amol (Oct 28, 2014)

I consider MS Sasuke inferior to SM Naruto.
J Man has equal chance of winning .
It can go either way .


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2014)

Frog Call + Any Senpo attack ends this. MS-Sasuke can defeat Jiraiya, but its by beating him before he enters SM, if he achieves it there is no much Sasuke can do against him.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 28, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Youre overthinking things far too much,
> by ur logic, nagato could have used preta on amatearsu well before the flames were spawned, yet he used ST, does that make  preta an invalid counter? no it doesnt,
> this is just ridiculous
> 
> ...



Ok let me try to clarify.


We are in agreement that a smoke cloud will no doubt mess up sasuke's  amatarasu attempts.

Your arguement is upon seeing  the chakra build ma will respond with dust cloud.

That's  where we don't  agree.

Amatarasu has been stated to be a very fast technique.

What reasoning feats has ma displayed for us to believe that she will figure out the amatarasu mechanics just upon seeing the chakra build and respond with a dust cloud all before sasuke can release this fast technique.

 In nagatos case pretha is a absolute defense against any ninjutsu, he doesn't have to think on how frs works to defend himself.

Ma has to decipher how amatarasu works and then respond with the appropriate counter in a very limit amount of time due to amatarasu speed.

See what im getting at?

In a full knowledge scenerio i would agree with you.


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## RedChidori (Oct 28, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Sasuke wins mid diff at worst.
> 
> Jiraiya has no chances of evading Susano'o arrows + Amaterasu and he gets annihilated in CQC.
> 
> ...



The accuracy in this post is fuckin great .


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