# strongest verse Demigra can Solo



## AgentAAA (Mar 10, 2015)

Demigra realizes that the power of user-generated characters are too strong, and leaves off fighting Dumplin' and settles for trying to control a different universe.

Demigra feats: 
can fight with people on the level of super saiyan gods relatively easily, using several different techniques

mind-control capable of working on very powerful beings - as long as they've no resistance to magic, such as Beerus, Goku, and other "gods" in the Dragonball-verse.

Able to amp beings at least as well as towa and mira can, who were capable of making someone like hercule a serious threat to the main character(who was at least as powerful as frieza and was capable of briefly battling cell at that point, though it's unknown how seriously cell was taking the MC) 

capable of time perception and outside of time himselfl, capable of bringing himself to any era without much effort, and even continuing to control beings from that era without actually being there himself.


there's probably some better feats I'm forgetting or don't have the context to put down, but to put it bluntly: what verse can Demigra take down with his mix of high stats and decent hax?


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 10, 2015)

IIRC, he can BFR others as well. He did it to the Future Warrior when they first met I believe. He can also use teleportation akin to IT, though his technique doesn't seem to require a ki lock on beforehand. He can open portals that lead to his own dimension as well. He absorbed Tokitoki as well, which has the power to create time.


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## Shunssj (Mar 10, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> IIRC, he can BFR others as well. He did it to the Future Warrior when they first met I believe. He can also use teleportation akin to IT, though his technique doesn't seem to require a ki lock on beforehand.



His IT would be more like Kibito's then


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## Island (Mar 10, 2015)

Demigra might not be as powerful as you think.

Some NPC, probably Trunks or the Supreme Kai of Time, states that the Crack of Time and Tokitoki City exist outside of time. This means that Demigra also exists outside of time and can perceive/manipulate events independent of time. However, official sources (the Xenoverse website and its Facebook/Twitter) state that the events of Xenoverse occur in Age 850, which binds the Crack of Time and Tokitoki City to a fixed point in time. This means that since Demigra was present in the universe when these events occurred, he could have perceived them as they happened, and, thus, he knew to manipulate the events that he did because he perceived them as they occurred, not necessarily that he perceived _all_ events occur and happened to choose certain ones.

The most likely explanation is that when these people and places are described as existing outside of time, they really exist outside of any one timeline such that when a timeline diverges, it does not create an alternate Crack of Time or Tokitoki City. In this situation, Demigra, et al, are still “within time” but not any specific timeline in the same capacity that a pocket dimension might exist independent of a universe but does not constitute another universe entirely.

In short, it's unlikely that Demigra can perceive events independent of time and just happened to know of the events that we went onto manipulate.

Also, it should be clarified that Demigra does not have the ability to manipulate time.

He travelled through time, but any “distortions” or “manipulations” he made were because he manifested himself in that time and used his magic to control and empower people who would then create distortions. He manipulated neither time nor space in the same capacity that, say, Dialga or Palkia might do so.

A Dragonball character who manipulates space-time sounds like pages of fun  (also known as lots of flaming, trolling, and an inevitable lock) but let's not jump the gun. What we have here is somebody who is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku, weaker than Beerus, has magic powers that are thematically similar to Babidi's, and can travel through time and teleport.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 10, 2015)

Island said:


> Demigra might not be as powerful as you think.
> 
> Some NPC, probably Trunks or the Supreme Kai of Time, states that the Crack of Time and Tokitoki City exist outside of time. This means that Demigra also exists outside of time and can perceive/manipulate events independent of time. However, official sources (the Xenoverse website and its Facebook/Twitter) state that the events of Xenoverse occur in Age 850, which binds the Crack of Time and Tokitoki City to a fixed point in time. This means that since Demigra was present in the universe when these events occurred, he could have perceived them as they happened, and, thus, he knew to manipulate the events that he did because he perceived them as they occurred, not necessarily that he perceived _all_ events occur and happened to choose certain ones.
> 
> ...



Doesn't the fact that Demigra was aiming to destroy the Time Vault, which would've destroyed all of history according to the Supreme Kai of Time, and then create a new history kind of put a dent in that theory? 

I don't know everything about XV as I've yet to buy and play the game myself, so if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.


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## Island (Mar 11, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Doesn't the fact that Demigra was aiming to destroy the Time Vault, which would've destroyed all of history according to the Supreme Kai of Time, and then create a new history kind of put a dent in that theory?


The reason that Trunks and the Time Patroller fought Demigra in the first place was because the Supreme Kai of Time feared that Beerus would have destroyed the Time Vault (and, by extension, the universe) if the two fought.

The Supreme Kai of Time also prevented Goku and the Time Patroller from sparring outside of the Time Vault in fear that they might destroy it, and, by extension, the universe.

The Supreme Kai of Time stated that destroying the Time Vault would destroy the universe. Since the Time Vault can apparently be destroyed through conventional means, destroying it to destroy the universe does not mean that somebody is a universe-buster, just that he or she is capable of destroying the Time Vault, which apparently Goku circa Battle of Gods is capable of doing.

It would only be a universe-busting feat if the Time Vault had universal durability, which is can't unless Goku can universe bust.

About Demigra's attempt to recreate history, there are a couple problems with this attempted feat.

Demigra absorbs Tokitoki and then prefaces the Time Patroller's fight with him by stating that because of this, he now has mastery of time and space.

When he intended to recreate history, he intended to use Tokitoki's power to do so, not his own.

Supreme Kai of Time stated that Demigra would not survive if he destroyed the Time Vault. When Demigra attempted this, he immediately fled into the Crack of Time, confirming that he could not survive the Time Vault's destruction.

What all of this means is that even with Tokitoki's power, he could not destroy the universe without destroying the Time Vault, he could not survive the destruction of the universe, and that his vision to recreate history was only possible because of Tokitoki's power.

At best, Demigra after absorbing Tokitoki has the power to create a new universe but not to destroy one. He also doesn't have universal destructive power.

As an aside, an in-game scene confirms that the events occur in Age 850, which mean that Demigra was not outside of time when he was manipulating history and was not necessarily perceiving events independent of time.

In short, anyone with actual time-space manipulation will phase him out of existence and anyone at least as strong as Beerus can probably beat him through conventional means unless Demigra can successfully mind control them to do his bidding.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Island said:


> The reason that Trunks and the Time Patroller fought Demigra in the first place was because the Supreme Kai of Time feared that Beerus would have destroyed the Time Vault (and, by extension, the universe) if the two fought.
> 
> The Supreme Kai of Time also prevented Goku and the Time Patroller from sparring outside of the Time Vault in fear that they might destroy it, and, by extension, the universe.
> 
> ...



I wasn't attempting to imply that Demigra could destroy the universe under his own power. I was merely saying that he was aiming to destroy the Time Vault in order to destroy all of history/the universe so he could then recreate his own history. 

And yes, I realize he could only do such a feat after absorbing Tokitoki. I wasn't implying he could do so under his own power. All I was saying was that him being able to manipulate time and space isn't exactly false considering what he was going to do after absorbing Tokitoki. He just can't perform such a feat without the power of Tokitoki.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 11, 2015)

most of ToAru I'm guessing, since like 99% of them are too slow compared to him and the majority of the ones who can do shit are glass cannons

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Ignoring any hax discussions for a second: 
Raw power-wise, Demigra isn't the most powerful. Beerus, Whis and SSG Goku are stronger. XV Goku describes SSG as a previous state. Goku is not SSG when fighting against Demigra.

Furthermore, you can't compare Future Warrior to Beerus and SSG Goku because he fought in the same battle. Plot-wise, we don't know how much of the contribution was FW and how much was Beerus/Goku. Beerus + FW > Demigra because Beerus > Demigra. Beerus + Whis were not actually defeated by FW/Trunks. 
You gotta use plot and cut scenes more than game engine stuff.

Demigra managed to get SS3 Goku with those spear things after FW got hit. Based on  BoG dialogue, SS3 Goku > Mystic Gohan, so you could make a case for Demigra being in Fusion Saga territory.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Ignoring any hax discussions for a second:
> Raw power-wise, Demigra isn't the most powerful. Beerus, Whis and SSG Goku are stronger. XV Goku describes SSG as a previous state. Goku is not SSG when fighting against Demigra.



so him internalizing SSJG doesn't count for Xenoverse? 

though I'm not seeing why it wouldn't since it technically became a previous state when he lost it in BotG, he just wound up using its power in a different way


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Ignoring any hax discussions for a second:
> Raw power-wise, Demigra isn't the most powerful. Beerus, Whis and SSG Goku are stronger. XV Goku describes SSG as a previous state. *Goku is not SSG when fighting against Demigra.*
> 
> Furthermore, you can't compare Future Warrior to Beerus and SSG Goku because he fought in the same battle. Plot-wise, we don't know how much of the contribution was FW and how much was Beerus/Goku. Beerus + FW > Demigra because Beerus > Demigra. Beerus + Whis were not actually defeated by FW/Trunks.
> ...



That wouldn't make much sense considering the BoGs saga follows the actual BoGs storyline with Beerus even stating that Goku managed to absorb his god forms power. Demigra also couldn't control Goku and this is because his magic doesn't work on godly beings (or ones who possess godly ki I'd assume). If Goku was just a normal being using SSJ3 then Demigra should've had no problem controlling him seeing as he's controlled beings who're much stronger. Goku did actually lose the state hence why it's probably referred to as a previous state, but he retained its power.

So yea, everything points to Goku still having his god power during his fight with Demigra.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> so him internalizing SSJG doesn't count for Xenoverse?
> 
> though I'm not seeing why it wouldn't since it technically became a previous state when he lost it in BotG, he just wound up using its power in a different way



Yeah, as after he lost SSG Beerus notes in the Battle of the Gods that the experience itself made Goku stronger and able to emulate it (the part where Beerus call him a prodigy for being able to do so). Which is why he could fight Beerus at all as a SS1.

So, in the final fight either the Future Warrior defeats Demigra on his own and gets some timely help from some of the other Z-fighters giving him their ki or it's a combined effort between both SS3 Goku and the FW. This is after Goku's fight with Beerus, so keep in mind his SS3 should be much more powerful then.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> so him internalizing SSJG doesn't count for Xenoverse?
> 
> though I'm not seeing why it wouldn't since it technically became a previous state when he lost it in BotG, he just wound up using its power in a different way





The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> That wouldn't make much sense considering the BoGs saga follows the actual BoGs storyline with Beerus even stating that Goku managed to absorb his god forms power. Demigra also couldn't control Goku and this is because his magic doesn't work on godly beings (or ones who possess godly ki I'd assume). If Goku was just a normal being using SSJ3 then Demigra should've had no problem controlling him. Goku did actually lose the state hence why it's probably referred to as a previous state, but he retained its power.
> 
> So yea, everything points to Goku still having his god power during his fight with Demigra.


Yeah, but XV doesn't look at it that way. It does have the line in it, but it doesn't seem to interpret it that way. XV Goku is certainly stronger than DBZ SS3 Goku, but less than SSG Goku. I had the feeling from BoG that he was going to fight in base. Don't have a super strong argument for this, just my impression of how it lined up.

Either way keep in mind that Demigra never beats Goku. Even if Goku was SSG tier in this, Demigra fails to actually beat him.


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## Sablés (Mar 11, 2015)

Its also stated SSJ3 was a pointless transformation at this stage.

would chalk it up to game shenanigans.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Yeah, separating game mechanics out is the real issue.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Yeah, but XV doesn't look at it that way. It does have the line in it, but it doesn't seem to interpret it that way. XV Goku is certainly stronger than DBZ SS3 Goku, but less than SSG Goku. I had the feeling from BoG that he was going to fight in base. Don't have a super strong argument for this, just my impression of how it lined up.



I'm not sure how you don't interpret it that way. Like I said before, it referring to SSJG as a previous state likely just means Goku had once attained the SSJG form and has now lost it but can utilize its power. 

If he didn't have the forms power then there's really no reason Demigra's magic should've been ineffective against him as it's only ineffective against godly beings/beings with godly ki (as we saw with Beerus). It also wouldn't make sense for them to have Beerus say Goku managed to absorb the power and then completely throw the concept out. 



> Either way keep in mind that Demigra never beats Goku. Even if Goku was SSG tier in this, Demigra fails to actually beat him.



He managed to pin him down and Goku was unable to offer any resistance to it. He needed the Future Warrior to save him. He also had a very difficult time holding back Demigra's attack that he fired to destroy the Time Vault. Goku also needed the Future Warrior's help to overpower Demigra's final attack in his 2nd form. 

I'd say there's plenty of evidence and implications that suggest he comes out ahead of SSJG Goku. Maybe not by much, but ahead nonetheless.


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## Island (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Furthermore, you can't compare Future Warrior to Beerus and SSG Goku because he fought in the same battle.
> 
> [...]
> 
> You gotta use plot and cut scenes more than game engine stuff.


I'm not so sure about this.

If Time Patroller had absolutely nothing on Beerus and Goku then intervening in the first place would have been pointless. I think we can assume that Time Patroller made some meaningful contribution to the fight.

Plus, in-battle dialogue (mostly from Trunks) suggests that Time Patroller is actively contributing to these battles. When Beerus and Time Patroller fought Demigra, both Beerus and Trunks imply that Time Patroller is making a contribution. At the end of this same battle, Time Patroller destroys Demiga's doppelganger, which doesn't make sense if Beerus is carrying the fight.

Later on, when Beerus and Whis tested Time Patroller and Trunks, Beerus and Whis did seem impressed with their performance. Compounded with the fact that Beerus wanted to kill Demigra himself, it's strange that this would happen unless Time Patroller was at least in the ballpark of Goku.

Also, Demigra does dodge an attack or two from Beerus, which wouldn't be possible if Demigra was anything weaker than Vegeta.



Reznor said:


> Yeah, but XV doesn't look at it that way. It does have the line in it, but it doesn't seem to interpret it that way. XV Goku is certainly stronger than DBZ SS3 Goku, but less than SSG Goku. I had the feeling from BoG that he was going to fight in base. Don't have a super strong argument for this, just my impression of how it lined up.
> 
> Either way keep in mind that Demigra never beats Goku. Even if Goku was SSG tier in this, Demigra fails to actually beat him.


The only reason that Demigra didn't beat Goku was because Demigra fled into the Crack of Time immediately after launching his attack to destroy the Time Vault.

Goku was pretty badly injured, and there wasn't a point in beating him when the destruction of the Time Vault would just destroy him anyway.

I think we can assume that Demigra and Time Patroller are around or slightly above Goku, all of which are inferior to Beerus. At least, that's what's implied.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Either way keep in mind that Demigra never beats Goku. Even if Goku was SSG tier in this, Demigra fails to actually beat him.



He does though. 

During the time when both the FW and Goku were pinned down by Demigra. If it weren't for the FW using the scroll of eternity in that weird limbo he was in, and freeing Goku he would have died.


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## Island (Mar 11, 2015)

Oh yeah.

I'm just gonna leave this here:

[youtube]ysn74eGFYC8[/youtube]

This is every cutscene in Xenoverse. The final battle stuff starts around 2:00:00.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Island said:


> I'm not so sure about this.
> 
> If Time Patroller had absolutely nothing on Beerus and Goku then intervening in the first place would have been pointless. I think we can assume that Time Patroller made some meaningful contribution to the fight.
> 
> ...



I certainly wouldn't put the Future Warrior or Goku on par with Demigra considering the last clash they have heavily contradicts such a belief as the Future Warrior needed Goku as much as Goku needed the Future Warrior to overpower Demigra. Hell, Demigra had started overpowering their combined attack, but then PIS kicked in and added more strength to the attack and he was finally beaten.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Island said:


> Oh yeah.
> 
> I'm just gonna leave this here:
> 
> ...



Doesn't have the alternate ending though.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yhXQP45vWI[/YOUTUBE]

Which is dependent on how quickly you kill Demigra.


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## Island (Mar 11, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> I certainly wouldn't put the Future Warrior or Goku on par with Demigra considering the last clash they have heavily contradicts such a belief as the Future Warrior needed Goku as much as Goku needed the Future Warrior to overpower Demigra. Hell, Demigra had started overpowering their combined attack, but then PIS kicked in and added more strength to the attack and he was finally beaten.


That's true.

This is dependent on which ending is the canon ending, though. In the secret ending, if Time Patroller defeats Demigra quick enough, Goku doesn't actually appear for the fight except for the final push.

Up until that very last second, Time Patroller was presumably doing well against Demigra on his/her own.

I was actually going to post this ending, but it looks like Brimstone is one step ahead of me here.

But you're probably right. Considering this is the "alternate" ending, the canon ending is most likely the default one where Goku and Time Patroller defeat Demigra together and, thus, are individually weaker than him.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

shouldn't the secret ending take precedence? Since it's the better ending.
either way, xenoverse seems to imply that, at least for XV goku, SS3 is still a viable transformation to use... despite not using it vs. beerus in canon when he could have.

Anyhoo, Demigra was able to avoid dying outright to beerus, though shown to be inferior, so goku and TP member should at least be comparable.

Given that parallel quests are considered a legitimate part of the game, could feats from there be considered for the TP member? albeit, worst that does is put him comfortably on par with SSJG Goku - "Beating" Beerus just ends with him going to take a nap and little more, probably for the exact reason that the time patrol were never on his level.
Unless you're doing a 1v1 and body change, of course :3


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## Island (Mar 11, 2015)

Not really sure what the rule is for alternate endings.

About the Parallel Quests, I'm pretty sure that side-quests aren't considered canon since not being necessary to complete a game means they aren't confirmed to have happened.

Fierce Deity Link comes to mind. Link acquiring the mask at the end of a side-quest wasn't considered canon until Hyrule Historia confirmed that this actually happened.

Similarly, we assume that the player doesn't capture all those Legendary Pok?mon that can only be found after the Elite Four is beaten. I think we'd have a lot of explaining to do if we had to justify Dawn/Lucas capturing Arceus or Cynthia commanding Arceus to create a new Dialga, Palkia, or Giratina.

Things like post-story quests are usually fine, but, again, it's usually that side-quests have some pretty wonky stuff that we can't even verify as actually happening.

Even if we went ahead and accepted the Parallel Quests, we don't have a way to scale them. I'm pretty sure Trunks stated that characters in Parallel Quests can be stronger or weaker than normal.

Given that we see things like Nappa fighting alongside Cell, I'm inclined to believe that even if they're accepted as canon, there's no way to know how powerful any one character in a particular Parallel Quest is.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Island said:


> Not really sure what the rule is for alternate endings.
> 
> About the Parallel Quests, I'm pretty sure that side-quests aren't considered canon since not being necessary to complete a game means they aren't confirmed to have happened.
> 
> ...



the difference is we have parallel quests well explained to us and they're a part of the lore as well as the game. the only reason other time patrollers even exist is due to those timelines needing to be closed up. This is something that comes up in the main story of the game, and something that trunks leads you through.

 even other time patrollers regularly reference dealing with parallel quests and storylines of their own - one time patroller has an ongoing arc that goes on as yours does, with King pic fusing with kami, the red ribbon bringing out android soldiers to fight against him, and babidi mucking it up further.

would like to see the quote about runks saying that with the parallel quests, btw.


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## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

Oh, so I got the Alternate Ending without even realizing it, neat.

Goku wasn't terribly injured by the spear things from Demigra though, he was paralyzed real good but that's it (It looked like some sort of Magic even, something we know Dragon Ball is generally weak against). Not to mention it sort of looks like he gets hit because of the FW (when he/she gets hit he turns his head, and then gets hit).

IMHO it goes like this:
Pre-SSJG Goku < Demigra (normal) < Future Warrior =< Post-SSJG Goku < Transformed Demigra <<< SSJG Goku < ....

I'm just not seeing even transformed Demigra in the Gods' league.

@Agent

I don't remember Time Patrollers mentioning Parallel Quests, but I do remember some of them mentioning the main Story. One Time Patroller talks about how he finished the Namek Arc, defeated Frieza and fixed everything with the Namekian Dragon Balls.


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## Island (Mar 11, 2015)

Untrue.

There are plenty of times when prologues and tutorials tell the player character about "Quest Boards" or about important characters and events. It doesn't necessarily mean that the completion of these quests are canon, however.

Either Trunks or the Supreme Kai of Time are standing in front of the Parallel Quest area and more or less tell you "These quests don't make any sense, so just do them and don't question anything."

Again, even if we accepted that they actually happen, there's no way to confirm how powerful any participants are. Again, you have things like Cell fighting alongside Radditz, Nappa, and the Ginyu Force or Hercule fighting Vegeta.



Featherine said:


> One Time Patroller talks about how he finished the Namek Arc, defeated Frieza and fixed everything with the Namekian Dragon Balls.


This is somewhat different because it's game lore. Since the NPC will say that either from the beginning or as you advance the main story, we can assume that this is something that happened.

One of the NPCs talks about how he was trying to fix a distortion where King Piccolo merged with Kami (essentially becoming as strong as First Form Cell before the Saiyans even arive) and then gets into a war with the Red Ribbon Army that created the Androids early. If you speak to him later on, he talks about how Babidi came to Earth in search of Majin Buu and got involved, creating a three-way war between Demon King Kamiccolo, the Androids, and Babidi and his minions.

Not really relevant to anything, but it's one of my favorite pieces of flavor from the game since you brought up the guy who defeated Frieza.

Since you mention it, other Time Patrollers imply that they are significantly stronger than Frieza and Cell. One of them gauges your Power Level regularly and finally states that you would be a good sparring partner only after you defeat Cell.

Again, not entirely relevant, but it's good for contextual purposes.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Oh, so I got the Alternate Ending without even realizing it, neat.
> 
> Goku wasn't terribly injured by the spear things from Demigra though, he was paralyzed real good but that's it (It looked like some sort of Magic even, something we know Dragon Ball is generally weak against). Not to mention it sort of looks like he gets hit because of the FW (when he/she gets hit he turns his head, and then gets hit).
> 
> ...



Er, Post-SSJG Goku has the same amount of power as SSJG Goku. As Beerus said, he absorbed that power. That's also the very reason Demigra's magic couldn't work on him. 

So yes, Demigra is very much up there with the Gods. He's even stronger than SSJG Goku considering it took both Goku and the Future Warrior to overwhelm him. 

So in essence it'd be Whis>Beerus>Demigra>Goku>=Future Warrior in the context of XV at least.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

> This is somewhat different because it's game lore. Since the NPC will say that either from the beginning or as you advance the main story, we can assume that this is something that happened.
> 
> One of the NPCs talks about how he was trying to fix a distortion where King Piccolo merged with Kami (essentially becoming as strong as First Form Cell before the Saiyans even arive) and then gets into a war with the Red Ribbon Army that created the Androids early. If you speak to him later on, he talks about how Babidi came to Earth in search of Majin Buu and got involved, creating a three-way war between Demon King Kamiccolo, the Androids, and Babidi and his minions.
> 
> ...


 This better be a DLC.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Post-SSG Goku doesn't have as much power as SSG Goku, he just has a lot more than pre-SSG Goku.

This:


> Pre-SSJG Goku < Demigra (normal) < Future Warrior =< Post-SSJG Goku < Transformed Demigra <<< SSJG Goku < ....


 Is a pretty far assessment.

I could also see:


> So in essence it'd be Whis>Beerus>Demigra>Goku>=Future Warrior in the context of XV at least.



Demigra only survived Beerus because that wasn't his real body. 
FW punches through him and then  he leave.



> I'm not so sure about this.
> 
> If Time Patroller had absolutely nothing on Beerus and Goku then intervening in the first place would have been pointless. I think we can assume that Time Patroller made some meaningful contribution to the fight.


 DBXV does interpret the power curve a bit flatter. 

FW intervention does give Goku a victory over Beerus. I'm not even sure why that intervention took place.



> Plus, in-battle dialogue (mostly from Trunks) suggests that Time Patroller is actively contributing to these battles. When Beerus and Time Patroller fought Demigra, both Beerus and Trunks imply that Time Patroller is making a contribution. At the end of this same battle, Time Patroller destroys Demiga's doppelganger, which doesn't make sense if Beerus is carrying the fight.


 Beerus far above Demigra. He was slotching, because Demigra was much weaker. FW was fighting all out since this is the Big Bad.

I don't think FW was far below Demigra at that point, I just think they were both far below Beerus and SSG Goku.


> Later on, when Beerus and Whis tested Time Patroller and Trunks, Beerus and Whis did seem impressed with their performance. Compounded with the fact that Beerus wanted to kill Demigra himself, it's strange that this would happen unless Time Patroller was at least in the ballpark of Goku.


 That just says that Beerus and Whis believe that FW is in the ballpark of Demigra, not themselves or SSG Goku.



> Also, Demigra does dodge an attack or two from Beerus, which wouldn't be possible if Demigra was anything weaker than Vegeta.


 I can agree with this. By this point, Future Warrior > Angry SS2 Vegeta > Pre-SSG Goku.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> *Post-SSG Goku doesn't have as much power as SSG Goku, he just has a lot more than pre-SSG Goku.*



Nothing suggests that at all. In fact, everything suggests the opposite considering the BoGs saga follows the BoGs movie to a tea and Goku despite losing his SSJG form was still able to fight nearly on par with 70% Beerus, so it's pretty clear he didn't lose any power when losing that form.



> Demigra only survived Beerus because that wasn't his real body.
> FW punches through him and then  he leave.



Not sure what the point of this is as I'm well aware of the fact that Demigra is weaker than Beerus.


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## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

Island said:


> Untrue.
> 
> There are plenty of times when prologues and tutorials tell the player character about "Quest Boards" or about important characters and events. It doesn't necessarily mean that the completion of these quests are canon, however.
> 
> Either Trunks or the Supreme Kai of Time are standing in front of the Parallel Quest area and more or less tell you "These quests don't make any sense, so just do them and don't question anything."



Not exactly, IIRC, they just say that because a few things were altered they might fight in weird conditions, or even against people that should be "Allies". But yeah, I don't think the PQ are canon either, or really quantifiable. That Saiyan Revolt PQ where you have to keep Radditz and Nappa alive, if they were really at their canon power levels they'd be fodderized by the mere shockwave of attacks, it might be considered gameplay mechanics but it makes 0 sense for them to not be boosted somehow.



Island said:


> This is somewhat different because it's game lore. Since the NPC will say that either from the beginning or as you advance the main story, we can assume that this is something that happened.
> 
> One of the NPCs talks about how he was trying to fix a distortion where King Piccolo merged with Kami (essentially becoming as strong as First Form Cell before the Saiyans even arive) and then gets into a war with the Red Ribbon Army that created the Androids early. If you speak to him later on, he talks about how Babidi came to Earth in search of Majin Buu and got involved, creating a three-way war between Demon King Kamiccolo, the Androids, and Babidi and his minions.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I mentioned that in another thread, seems like Time Patrollers are fairly strong overall.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Er, Post-SSJG Goku has the same amount of power as SSJG Goku. As Beerus said, he absorbed that power. That's also the very reason Demigra's magic couldn't work on him.
> 
> So yes, Demigra is very much up there with the Gods. He's even stronger than SSJG Goku considering it took both Goku and the Future Warrior to overwhelm him.
> 
> So in essence it'd be Whis>Beerus>Demigra>Goku>=Future Warrior in the context of XV at least.



Um, no. You should watch the Beerus vs Goku fight again, Beerus clearly states the reason he was still able to keep up was because he had absorbed/assimilated somehow a bit of his SSJG power. It'd make no sense if Goku remained exactly as strong as he was in SSJG...

Beerus noticed he reverted back to Base, its pretty clear he adjusted his power according to Goku's, that's why Goku himself didn't even notice I guess.

Exact sentence is:
Beerus: どうやらお前はゴッドになって戦っている中に、その世界を体に吸収させてしまったようだ。
"Apparently, while you were fighting as a God you managed to absorb some of that World's power."
Beerus: だから元に戻ってしまっても、大してパワーダウンしないだな。
"That's why even though you reverted back, you didn't lose too much power."

SSJG Goku > Post-SSJG Goku > Pre-SSJG Goku.

I stand by what I said, I don't think Demigra is as strong as the Gods.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Um, no. You should watch the Beerus vs Goku fight again, Beerus clearly states the reason he was still able to keep up was because he had absorbed/assimilated somehow a bit of his SSJG power. It'd make no sense if Goku remained exactly as strong as he was in SSJG...
> 
> Beerus noticed he reverted back to Base, its pretty clear he adjusted his power according to Goku's, that's why Goku himself didn't even notice I guess.
> 
> ...



Er, yes. The way the fight plays out suggests he doesn't lose any power considering he still managed to fight nearly on par with a 70% Beerus. SSJG was only ever as strong as 70% Beerus (actually a bit weaker as SSJG is a 6 while Beerus is a 10 so it stands to reason that Beerus was a 7 in that fight) to begin with so if he lost power after losing that form then it stands to reason that he wouldn't of in anyway been able to keep up with Beerus. He did. Not to mention Toriyama himself says Goku absorbed that forms power and thus in essence makes the SSJG form irrelevant. He never says he only absorbed some of it. 



> I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.


----------



## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

You seem to forget the part where Beerus actually states himself he lost power... パワーダウン = Power Down.
Couple that with the fact Beerus NOTICES that he reverted back.

Yeah, nothing complicated here in my opinion.

What good would be the SSJG form if he didn't even need it anymore ? Makes no sense.

Link to Toriyama saying SSJG form is useless and will never be seen again please. I find it hard to believe he'd go through the trouble of creating a new form/aura and everything just to ditch it 5 minutes later.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> You seem to forget the part where Beerus actually states himself he lost power... パワーダウン = Power Down.
> Couple that with the fact Beerus NOTICES that he reverted back.
> 
> Yeah, nothing complicated here in my opinion.



You're missing the point. If Goku had lost any power whatsoever he wouldn't of in anyway been able to keep up with Beerus as SSJG was only ever as strong as 70% Beerus (actually a bit weaker like I said earlier since Beerus is a 10 and SSJG Goku is a 6 thus Beeurs would've been a 7 in that fight). Goku did in fact manage to keep up and score several hits on Beerus. 



> What good would be the SSJG form if he didn't even need it anymore ? Makes no sense.



We really don't know why he transformed into SSJG in the end (It could've been for a number of reasons. Even Beerus didn't realize what he had done), but the fact of the matter is that the fight between Beerus and Goku indicate Goku didn't lose any power and Toriyama flat out states SSJG is unnecessary considering Goku has absorbed that forms power. If he didn't retain the full might of the form then such a statement is pointless.



> I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.





This also the reason why Goku will only be fighting in base in the new movie Revival of F because he has no need for any other forms due to the fact that he's retained the power of his god form and can use it without transforming.


----------



## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

Once again, link me that Akira interview where he says SSJG is useless and will never be seen again, then I might believe it.

I think you're the one missing a crucial point. Beerus notices Goku reverts, he just wanted to test him out, and at this point most certainly didn't even want to destroy Earth anymore. He adapted to his power level, seems a fair assumption.

Coupled with the fact, for the third time, he states himself Goku lost power. And the fact Goku actually transformed again to nullify his last Ki Orb attack when he was powerless to stop it beforehand, yeah.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Once again, link me that Akira interview where he says SSJG is useless and will never be seen again, then I might believe it.



Uh, I just provided you the link to the interview where Toriyama says there is no need for Goku to use the SSJG transformation anymore. Look above.



> I think you're the one missing a crucial point. Beerus notices Goku reverts, he just wanted to test him out, and at this point most certainly didn't even want to destroy Earth anymore. He adapted to his power level, seems a fair assumption.



Based on what? The only evidence we have in terms of the power Beerus used in that fight was when Whis said Beerus only used 70% in that fight. Nothing suggests Beerus dialed it back even further after Goku lost his SSJG form. 



> Coupled with the fact, for the third time, he states himself Goku lost power. And the fact Goku actually transformed again to nullify his last Ki Orb attack.



As I've said, we've no idea why Goku transformed at the end there. It could've been for any number of reasons. PIS, dramatic effect, etc.


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## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

No original.

You're jumping the gun real fast here. Akira says he absorbed God's powers, aka God Ki, and that he doesn't need to transform to access it (his God's powers) again. With the power boost he had he can probably train to catch up on his own. And he confirms just that saying Goku doesn't like borrowing other people's powers.

"Any number of reasons", pretty simple actually, he wasn't strong enough to stop the attack in normal/SSJ mode so he turned. Is what happens on-screen.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> No original.
> 
> You're jumping the gun real fast here. Akira says he absorbed God's powers, aka God Ki, and that he doesn't need to transform to access it again. With the power boost he had he can probably train to catch up on his own. And he confirms just that saying Goku doesn't like borrowing other people's powers.



Er, no. He essentially says that transforming into SSJG is redundant because he's already absorbed that forms power. You're basically twisting words at this point to suit your argument. 



> "Any number of reasons", pretty simple actually, he wasn't strong enough to stop the attack in normal/SSJ mode so he turned. Nothing complicated.



And the SSJG form shouldn't of been strong enough to stop it either considering SSJG Goku is only a 6 while Beerus is a 10 and presumably while using only 70% of his power is a 7, so like I said, PIS, dramatic effect, etc. A common thing in DB.


----------



## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Er, no. He essentially says that transforming into SSJG is redundant because he's already absorbed that forms power. You're basically twisting words at this point to suit your argument.



Wonder who's the one doing it, "already absorbed Gods' power". "God's power" is pretty clearly established as "God Ki" in the movie, not just RAW power, the movie kind of proves even with raw power as long as you don't have God Ki you're screwed either way. Now that Goku has access to God Ki, he doesn't need to go SSJG anymore, since he already has God's power, he can contend with the other Gods without borrowing people's powers.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And the SSJG form shouldn't of been strong enough to stop it either considering SSJG Goku is only a 6 while Beerus is a 10 and presumably while using only 70% of his power is a 7, so like I said, PIS, dramatic effect, etc. A common thing in DB.



Yeah, because it's totally impossible for Beerus to use less than his full power against an opponent he knows is weaker AND reverted back from his SSJG form, suffering a power down he himself acknowledges, right ?
Fact of the matter is, Goku couldn't push back the attack in SSJ form, he turned into God and managed to. Twist that however you want, it'll stay the same.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Wonder who's the one doing it, "already absorbed Gods' power". "God's power" is pretty clearly established as "God Ki" in the movie, not just RAW power, the movie kind of proves even with raw power as long as you don't have God Ki you're screwed either way. Now that Goku has access to God Ki, he doesn't need to go SSJG anymore, since he already has God's power, he can contend with the other Gods without borrowing people's powers.



A form isn't redundant if the power it grants is still greater than what you currently have. Toriyama has said the form isn't necessary, so obviously Goku has managed to retain the full might of said forms power otherwise the form wouldn't be considered redundant. Twist the words however you'd like, but the fact will remain the same. 



> Yeah, because it's totally impossible for Beerus to use less than his full power against an opponent he knows is weaker AND reverted back from his SSJG form, suffering a power down he himself acknowledges, right ?
> Fact of the matter is, Goku couldn't push back the attack in SSJ form, he turned into God and managed to. Twist that however you want, it'll stay the same.



Why don't you present to me the evidence of Beerus dialing his power back? You can speculate about it all you'd like, but until evidence is presented that confirms said speculation then that's exactly what it'll remain, speculation.

The fact is that the SSJG form wouldn't be powerful enough to stop Beerus' attack either considering Beerus is a 10 and presumably a 7 when only using 70% of his power and SSJG Goku is only a 6. That's a flat out fact. Beerus dialing his power back isn't.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> I find it hard to believe he'd go through the trouble of creating a new form/aura and everything just to ditch it 5 minutes later.



Kaoiken. 

Forever in the closet after SS made it's appearance.


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## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

Toriyama said the form is unnecessary to reach "God's power", which the movie established as "God's Ki", stated multiple times.

I really have no idea what you're talking about. You're saying even in God form Goku wouldn't be strong enough to push back the attack, yet that's exactly what he did. 
He couldn't in normal form, he did in God form, simple.

Also, please find me the original page or something os I can check myself, the fact they keep adding [Super Saiyan] in brackets tells me this isn't even present in the original text. Which would mean Toriyama is really just talking about "God" powers, which is God Ki, not just power.



Rytlock Brimstone said:


> Kaoiken.
> 
> Forever in the closet after SS made it's appearance.



To be fair, Kaioken was used in 2 entire Arcs, so it's okay, and it was ditched because it had huge drawbacks and less gains than SSJ. Which isn't the case here, God form was seen 5 minutes, and then 5 seconds again when Goku was on the verge of defeat.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> To be fair, Kaioken was used in 2 entire Arcs, so it's okay, and it was ditched because it had huge drawbacks and less gains than SSJ. Which isn't the case here, God form was seen 5 minutes, and then 5 seconds again when Goku was on the verge of defeat.



I still miss it.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Toriyama said the form is unnecessary to reach "God's power", which the movie established as "God's Ki", stated multiple times.



Twisting words again. He said because Goku absorbed the SSJG forms power the form no longer has any use. If the form was still more powerful than Goku's Post-SSJG strength than it certainly wouldn't be considered redundant by Toriyama. 



> I really have no idea what you're talking about. You're saying even in God form Goku wouldn't be strong enough to push back the attack, yet that's exactly what he did.
> He couldn't in normal form, he did in God form, simple.



Hence PIS. Have you heard of it? It's a common theme in DB, especially of late. The fact that he was even able to transform into SSJG again is PIS considering the transformation required a 6 pure of heart saiyan ritual and that certainly didn't take place the 2nd time.



> Also, please find me the original page or something os I can check myself, the fact they keep adding [Super Saiyan] in brackets tells me this isn't even present in the original text. Which would mean Toriyama is really just talking about "God" powers, which is God Ki, not just power.



I don't have the original page. You're going to have to go on Kanzenshuu and ask around for that.


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## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

You're not the only one. I like transformations with drawbacks/restrictions. It wasn't just about lolIpressmywinbutton, it was about managing it and your body, it was pretty good.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Twisting words again. He said because Goku absorbed the SSJG forms power the form no longer has any use. If the form was still more powerful than Goku's Post-SSJG strength than it certainly wouldn't be considered redundant by Toriyama.



Toriyama's exact words "Goku doesn't need God form to have God power", God power is God Ki, stated multiple times in the movie. It's like you gain X power by attaining a new orm yet somehow can keep that X power in base form, transforming to get X power would be useless. You're the one trying to turn this into "Goku absorbed *ALL* (I don't see any all/everything in there by the way) of the power he had in SSJG and kept it in base. Ignoring for the 5th time now ? That Beerus himself states Goku's power DE-CREA-SED. 



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Hence PIS. Have you heard of it? It's a common theme in DB, especially of late.



Wow, I need to recheck my descriptions then. PIS can also make an attack disappear in thin air without any explanations whatsoever and without the characters even caring about what just happened. 
Are you serious with this ? ...
We have a clear on panel depiction of what happens and you try to change what we see into some new form of PIS I never heard about.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> I don't have the original page. You're going to have to go on Kanzenshuu and ask around for that.



Errr, they could link it in their articles or something


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Basically, the way I am looking at it is that Goku absorbed the power of SSG but when he power-ups to the max he assumes the form again. As Featherine is correct, when Goku stops Beerus's Sphere of Destruction he does temporarily assume it again. 

So, basically Pre-SSG Goku < Post-SSG Goku < Goku when temporarily assuming the form of SSG, unless he really did just absorb the power completely and now the form is useless.

Also, tempted to say FW is more powerful because looking at the scroll of eternity scene when he saves Goku again. It looks like he actually managed to survive the destruction of the time-vault. Which would explain the vast white nothingness, and the scroll of eternity having recorded Goku's death and the Time Vault's destruction. 

No idea how he managed that though.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Toriyama's exact words "Goku doesn't need God form to have God power", God power is God Ki, stated multiple times in the movie. It's like you gain X power by attaining a new orm yet somehow can keep that X power in base form, transforming to get X power would be useless. You're the one trying to turn this into "Goku absorbed *ALL* (I don't see any all/everything in there by the way) of the power he had in SSJG and kept it in base. Ignoring for the 5th time now ? That Beerus himself states Goku's power DE-CREA-SED.



Except they're not his exact words. His exact words:



> I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, *so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.*



In other words, SSJG is now redundant. A form isn't redundant if it's still more powerful than the power you're currently using. I've said it 3 times now yet you continue to ignore it.



> Wow, I need to recheck my descriptions then. PIS can also make an attack disappear in thin air without any explanations whatsoever and without the characters even caring about what just happened.
> Are you serious with this ? ...
> We have a clear on panel depiction of what happens and you try to change what we see into some new form of PIS I never heard about.



Are you serious with this? Did you not even bother to read any of my posts? Goku shouldn't have been able to stop Beerus' attack even with SSJG because as I've said about 3-4 times now, Beerus is a 10 and presumably a 7 when using 70% of his power and SSJG Goku is only a 6. Goku still overpowering it is plot induced stupidity. In other words, PIS. 

So is the fact that Goku could even transform into SSJG a second time seeing as it's a transformation requiring a 6 pure of hear saiyan ritual yet it never took place for his second transformation. Once again, PIS.

It really seems like you're just glossing over what I'm saying at this point. Either way, this debate is just going in circles. Let's just agree to disagree.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

That seems pretty clear to me so Post-SSG Goku = SSG Goku.


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## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

I'm not glossing over anything.

But basically, you just shrug off entire points of the movie as "PIS" because it contradicts your point, despite them being pretty simply depicted on-screen. You completely ignore the fact [Super Saiyan] is in brackets which probably means it's something added that wasn't even in the original text (hence why I asked for the original). 

You need to 6 saiyans to reach God form, it's never stated you can't reach it again afterwards once you.. guess what comes... acquire GOD KI. Goku will probably train until he can reach that form on his own. That'd make the form relevant, and not just something that's shown 5 minutes... Makes the most sense.

But yeah, seems like none of us will change their minds, let's just agree to disagree I guess.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> I'm not glossing over anything.
> 
> But basically, you just shrug off entire points of the movie as "PIS" because it contradicts your point, despite them being pretty simply depicted on-screen. You completely ignore the fact [Super Saiyan] is in brackets which probably means it's something added that wasn't even in the original text (hence why I asked for the original).



No, I'm calling PIS because that's essentially what it is. Goku managed to overpower a stronger attack with a weaker one and managed to transform into SSJG a 2nd time without the 6 pure of heart saiyan ritual, which is the only way to attain the form. No other way was ever implied to exist.



> You need to 6 saiyans to reach God form, it's never stated you can't reach it again afterwards once you.. guess what comes... acquire GOD KI.



It's not natural to retain the power of that form. Goku only did it because he was, as Beerus noted, a prodigy or something along those lines. What we know for a fact is that the SSJG transformation requires a 6 pure of heart saiyan ritual in order to attain. That never took place for Goku's 2nd transformation. 



> But yeah, seems like none of us will change their minds, let's just agree to disagree I guess.



Fair enough.


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## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Fair enough.



Things would be boring if there wasn't any conflicting opinions 
It's not like I'm 100% sure of what I'm saying either, I just think that the probability is more in favor of what I'm thinking.

Maybe Frieza movie will clear that up, a simple "why don't you transform into SSJG ?" sentence would be enough since it'd imply the transformation would make him stronger, but until then, well...

So, back on topic, I guess the maximum is about "What verse would Beerus be able to solo" then ?

With a bit of change considering he does have a bit of hax like mental manipulation, paralysis etc...


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 11, 2015)

Splitting Hairs: The Thread


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Featherine said:


> So, back on topic, I guess the maximum is about "What verse would Beerus be able to solo" then ?



I want to say Beerus is still stronger than Demigra. As he seemed pretty confident about destroying him but that was before Demigra ate Toki Toki and transformed. So, I don't know. Probably around that with the benefit of time-travel, and mind control yeah. 

And I still don't know how FW survived, or if he died and came back before the time-vault was destroyed with the scroll of eternity but if that was the case he wouldn't have been stuck in some big white limbo. That part is confusing.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Beerus is definitely stronger than Demigra. I wouldn't argue that in anyway. 

Demigra has a lot of hax at his disposal, which will make things easier on him in terms of what verse he's attempting to solo. The abilities he possesses are time travel, teleportation, bfr (he sent the Future Warrior to another time period I believe), portal creation (leads to the crack of time where he was imprisoned), mind control (was able to control any DB character aside from the godly beings), and with Tokitoki's power he can actually create time.

So yea, he's got quite a bit of hax to go with his conventional power that can help him.


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## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> I want to say Beerus is still stronger than Demigra. As he seemed pretty confident about destroying him but that was before Demigra ate Toki Toki and transformed.



My bad, talking constantly about Beerus made me say his name for no reason, I wanted to say Goku 



Rytlock Brimstone said:


> And I still don't know how FW survived, or if he died and came back before the time-vault was destroyed with the scroll of eternity but if that was the case he wouldn't have been stuck in some big white limbo. That part is confusing.



Yeah it's pretty confusing.

Even more so considering when the FW comes back in the Vault of time, we see him/her free Goku but somehow HE/SHE is nowhere to be found on the ground (there should've been 2 of them at this point right ?

Either everything blew up and the FW was somehow sent back to the future with the scroll.
Or some crappy DEM barged in, made the FW reach some imaginary world where he had the scroll to come back and save the day.

I honestly have no idea.

Demigra allowed the FW to reach a second altered timeline faster, instead of returning to the Vault of Time and finding the right scroll I think.

He also placed a bomb on him/her, might be a useful trick


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Nothing suggests that at all. In fact, everything suggests the opposite considering the BoGs saga follows the BoGs movie to a tea and Goku despite losing his SSJG form was still able to fight nearly on par with 70% Beerus, so it's pretty clear he didn't lose any power when losing that form.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what the point of this is as I'm well aware of the fact that Demigra is weaker than Beerus.


Revival of F isn't applicable to this.

XV was made with only knowledge of Battle of Gods. What's important is the way that they interpreted it. Demigra is a XV character, so XV takes precedent over RoF.

Your interpretation, in light of speculation of RoF might be accurate, but doesn't seem to be the one that XV went with. XV Goku just has ex-god benefits.

Although Featherine's post below makes me think that maybe XV interpretation is also the correct one.


Featherine said:


> Um, no. You should watch the Beerus vs Goku fight again, Beerus clearly states the reason he was still able to keep up was because he had absorbed/assimilated somehow a bit of his SSJG power. It'd make no sense if Goku remained exactly as strong as he was in SSJG...
> 
> Beerus noticed he reverted back to Base, its pretty clear he adjusted his power according to Goku's, that's why Goku himself didn't even notice I guess.
> 
> ...


Well, that's interesting.

I'm pretty convinced by this. Proper translation and better congruency with the "Goku 6 Beerus 10 Whis 15"  seem to seal the deal here.


> Not sure what the point of this is as I'm well aware of the fact that Demigra is weaker than Beerus.


 Then it wasn't directed at you, just anyone that believes that Demigra is in Beerus's ballpark.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Also, I'm only arguing Demigra's direct combat power - skills, strength, speed, ki, etc... ignoring any kinds of hax.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Revival of F isn't applicable to this.
> 
> XV was made with only knowledge of Battle of Gods. What's important is the way that they interpreted it. Demigra is a XV character, so XV takes precedent over RoF.
> 
> ...



Why are you bringing up RoF?  I didn't mention that at all in my post. I certainly don't have Demigra in Beerus' ballpark. I have him somewhere around Goku's or a bit above, which I think fits fine based on what XV is attempting to display.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:
			
		

> Then it wasn't directed at you, just anyone that believes that Demigra is in Beerus's ballpark.



Pretty sure that Demon God Demigra is by virtue of creating doppelgangers that are powerful enough to fight both Beerus and the FW. Which in turn made enough of a change in history that it freed him from the crack in time. That's just a doppelganger, and before Demigra ate Toki Toki or transformed. That, and Demigra is a god in the same as Goku was and Beerus is. So, Demigra being in the same ballpark as them is a pretty safe assumption to make. 

Though, I would still argue that Beerus is stronger by a bit.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> Pretty sure that Demon God Demigra is by virtue of creating doppelgangers that are powerful enough to fight both Beerus and the FW. Which in turn made enough of a change in history that it freed him from the crack in time. That's just a doppelganger, and before Demigra ate Toki Toki or transformed. That, and Demigra is a god in the same as Goku was and Beerus is. So, Demigra being in the same ballpark as them is a pretty safe assumption to make.
> 
> Though, I would still argue that Beerus is stronger by a bit.


He didn't plan on fighting Beerus. When he had to, he lost.

Nothing suggests Beerus had to push himself any to clinch that victory.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> He didn't plan on fighting Beerus. When he had to, he lost.



Yeah, and it was the FW and not the Beerus who landed the finishing blow. Which suggests he didn't contribute as much as the FW. 



> Nothing suggests Beerus had to push himself any to clinch that victory.



Yes, but Goku couldn't beat Demigra on his own and that was after having become SSG and absorbing its power. 

So, a SS3 Goku after absorbing SSG plus the FW was necessary or the FW alone getting a last minute boost for his kamehameha by some specters of the Z-fighters. Which the Supreme Kai of Time attributes to the crack of time when you ask her about it.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> Yeah, and it was the FW and not the Beerus who landed the finishing blow. Which suggests he didn't contribute as much as the FW.


Are you trying to argue FW > Beerus or that FW wasn't much weaker than Demigra or that FW > Demigra?



> So, a SS3 Goku after absorbing SSG plus the FW was necessary or the FW alone getting a last minute boost for his kamehameha by some specters of the Z-fighters. Which the Supreme Kai of Time attributes to the crack of time when you ask her about it.



It's silly to think that God Goku could SS3 to get even stronger.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Are you trying to argue FW > Beerus or that FW wasn't much weaker than Demigra or that FW > Demigra?



That Beerus didn't contribute as much, and was being lazy in the fight. AKA, not taking it seriously. Which is why FW took up the slack. 

FW is definitely more powerful than Demigra's doppelganger. 



> It's silly to think that God Goku could SS3 to get even stronger.



Why? 

Since that's what he did after he "lost" SSG and used SS1 in BoG. Then he started actually doing even better against Beerus. So, I would assume that transforming after having absorbed SSG increased his power.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> That Beerus didn't contribute as much, and was being lazy in the fight. AKA, not taking it seriously. Which is why FW took up the slack.
> 
> FW is definitely more powerful than Demigra's doppelganger.


 FW had help still, even if it was from Beerus being lazy. I beat me + Beerus being lazy > IRL, but that doesn't mean that I'm greater than IRL.

Even if FW contributed more than 50% of the fighting,  that doesn't mean that he was better anymore than however contributed more of Goku and Piccolo were greater than Raditz.

Also, I don't think finishing blow means contributing the most. FW would seize opportunites being as he was more serious about this fight and Beerus was willing to drag it out.

FW's contribution wasn't meaning less though. I'd agree that he wasn't that far below Demigra, if at all. Even if FW > Demigra, this fight doesn't demonstrate it. 




> Why?
> 
> 
> Since that's what he did after he "lost" SSG and used SS1 in BoG. Then he started actually doing even better against Beerus. So, I would assume that transforming after having absorbed SSG increased his power.


 Same reason he didn't use Kaioken to beat 70% Beerus.

If SS/KK multipliers worked the same at that tier, then Goku could have theoretically beat Beerus and that's silly.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> FW had help still, even if it was from Beerus being lazy. I beat me + Beerus being lazy > IRL, but that doesn't mean that I'm greater than IRL.
> 
> Even if FW contributed more than 50% of the fighting,  that doesn't mean that he was better anymore than however contributed more of Goku and Piccolo were greater than Raditz.
> 
> ...



No one was stating ssj multipliers worked at all. those aren't a thing. but SS3 goku should be >>> SS1 goku at that time, and since this is post his god revival, that Goku gets the scaling his current EoS canon self does.

I'd argue both of them get scaled to post-transformation super saiyan god goku, who did fight bills evenly in SS1 and base, with ss3 boosting by some small amount. probably just because the XV writers are fans of the form, honestly.

while neither goku not pic were greater than raditz in their fight and got blitzed a lot, they still got scaling to the point that their heavier attacks were actually hurting him, and in the case of SBC did a lot of damage. no one's saying they're >>> raditz either, but they were fighting somewhat on the same level - enough to dodge, counter, actually get a hit in, etc.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> FW had help still, even if it was from Beerus being lazy. I beat me + Beerus being lazy > IRL, but that doesn't mean that I'm greater than IRL.
> 
> Even if FW contributed more than 50% of the fighting,  that doesn't mean that he was better anymore than however contributed more of Goku and Piccolo were greater than Raditz.
> 
> ...



There's also that part when the FW fights the actual Demigra after he eats Toki Toki, and fights a mind controlled Trunks at the same time. 

So yeah, I think it's safe to say he is more powerful than some doppelganger. Which was what I was getting at there. 

Though if you take that scene with the scroll of eternity at face value the FW survived the destruction of the time-vault, and everything else. Which would by showings make him more powerful than anyone else.  

Seriously, I want to attribute that to the scroll of eternity since it was in the FW's hands when the time-vault (and the universe as a side-effect) got destroyed. 



> Same reason he didn't use Kaioken to beat 70% Beerus.
> 
> If SS/KK multipliers worked the same at that tier, then Goku could have theoretically beat Beerus and that's silly.



If transforming after absorbing SSG's power is pointless why did Goku do it against Beerus, and against Demigra then?

What exactly was the point to that? Since we already had someone confirm by WoG that Goku absorbed SSG's power. DBXV follows BoG, so that doesn't exclude this from it.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> Though if you take that scene with the scroll of eternity at face value the FW survived the destruction of the time-vault, and everything else. Which would by showings make him more powerful than anyone else.
> 
> Seriously, I want to attribute that to the scroll of eternity since it was in the FW's hands when the time-vault (and the universe as a side-effect) got destroyed.


Frankly I blame Tokitoki doing what little he can to save his ass, but it is ambiguous. at the leasti t scales to noone.


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## Sablés (Mar 11, 2015)

SSJ only made Goku slightly more powerful than his base form which is why he apparently doesn't use it at all in RoF (even then, notice Goku had to return to God form to stop Bills' attack from blowing up the Earth) SSJ3 would drain far too much energy for a similarly minor increase in power.

Honestly, this was already a concept back with Gohan and Old Kai


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Liquid said:


> SSJ only made Goku slightly more powerful than his base form which is why he apparently doesn't use it at all in RoF (even then, notice Goku had to return to God form to stop Bills' attack from blowing up the Earth) SSJ3 would drain far too much energy for a similarly minor increase in power.
> 
> Honestly, this was already a concept back with Gohan and Old Kai



I mean that's fine, except he uses it in-story and it's still at the least useful. It might just be that xenoverse has a more positive outlook on it overall.
Not sure if that's why he doesn't use SSJ in RoF though, IMO that's theorycrafting just a bit too much to state that right now. unless you have a source...


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## King Kakarot (Mar 11, 2015)

on the FW power 

He/she is as strong as they need to be one minute they seem to be on the God's lvl and in the secret sags(which is after you beat Demigra)

Trunks makes a huge deal about Broly


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> No one was stating ssj multipliers worked at all. those aren't a thing. but SS3 goku should be >>> SS1 goku at that time, and since this is post his god revival, that Goku gets the scaling his current EoS canon self does.
> 
> I'd argue both of them get scaled to post-transformation super saiyan god goku, who did fight bills evenly in SS1 and base, with ss3 boosting by some small amount. probably just because the XV writers are fans of the form, honestly.





Rytlock Brimstone said:


> If transforming after absorbing SSG's power is pointless why did Goku do it against Beerus, and against Demigra then?
> 
> What exactly was the point to that? Since we already had someone confirm by WoG that Goku absorbed SSG's power. DBXV follows BoG, so that doesn't exclude this from it.



No, I'm saying that assuming the paradigm of "Post-SSG Goku = SSG Goku".

SSG Goku > PostSSG SS3 Goku > PostSSG SSJ Goku > PostSSG Base Goku by my paradigm that lost some power.

However, if you are saying that SSG Goku = Post-SSG Base Goku or even SSG Gok = Post-SSG SSJ1 Goku then PostSSG SSJ3 Goku > SSG Goku... or perhaps PostSSG SS3 > Beerus.... which is silly, but it's how the multipliers would work out.

IMO, he lost power dropping from God form, but he was still above Gohan and Vegeta by a wide margin.

Beerus > SSG >>> Post SS3 > Post SS1 > Post Base >> Vegeta > Gohan.





> There's also that part when the FW fights the actual Demigra after he eats Toki Toki, and fights a mind controlled Trunks at the same time.
> 
> So yeah, I think it's safe to say he is more powerful than some doppelganger. Which was what I was getting at there.
> 
> ...


I meant FW in that fight. 

FW by the end of the quest > Demigra doppleganger easily.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

King Kakarot said:


> Trunks makes a huge deal about Broly


Trunks makes a big deal about Nappa.
Trunks makes a big deal about a Frieza, a guy he killed a few years ago. 

Maybe Trunks say Revival of Frieza.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Maybe it is after Revival of Frieza. Inbound DLC.


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## King Kakarot (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Trunks makes a big deal about Nappa.
> Trunks makes a big deal about a Frieza, a guy he killed a few years ago.
> 
> Maybe Trunks say Revival of Frieza.



all i'm saying is the future warrior power isn't consistent to begin with


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## King Kakarot (Mar 11, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> Maybe it is after Revival of Frieza. Inbound DLC.



GT  has a dlc i believe


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

King Kakarot said:


> on the FW power
> 
> He/she is as strong as they need to be one minute they seem to be on the God's lvl and in the secret sags(which is after you beat Demigra)
> 
> Trunks makes a huge deal about Broly



The secret saga is set before you actually kill Demigra because it's noted that Broly is being controlled by him, and was sent by him to Namek to kill Goku during the Frieza Saga. 

So technically, chronologically at that point it would be a big deal. Since the FW doesn't start off this powerful. He trains, and a lot of the mentors in the Time Nest are sent there by Trunks in order for you to get stronger.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

That, or Demigra is still alive somehow.


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## King Kakarot (Mar 11, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> The secret saga is set before you actually kill Demigra because it's noted that Broly is being controlled by him, and was sent by him to Namek to kill Goku during the Frieza Saga.
> 
> So technically, chronologically at that point it would be a big deal. Since the FW doesn't start off this powerful. He trains, and a lot of the mentors in the Time Nest are sent there by Trunks in order for you to get stronger.



it's set after you beat Demigra

When you talk to trunks he says thanks for your help with Demigra but we still got more work to do

His magic was all pre planned to work at a certain time even if he is dead


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> but it's how the multipliers would work out.



you recall the multipliers aren't canon, right? Those are kanzenshuu stuff and don't apply here.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

I thought the 50x one at least was.

Either way, doesn't matter. I still don't think that Post Goku can use SS3 to surpass SSG.

RoF Goku may be a different case.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> I thought the 50x one at least was.
> 
> Either way, doesn't matter. I still don't think that Post Goku can use SS3 to surpass SSG.
> 
> RoF Goku may be a different case.



no, the only time that's a "Canon thing" is when he first uses it due to a statement by toriyama that'd leave him stronger than he was, and even that's sort of disputable if you don't know if it's power level talk or not.

Essentially, all that's being argued is if Demigra gets BoG scaling at this point, which I'd argue he does.

well, more stuff is being argued, just not on topic stuff.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

King Kakarot said:


> it's set after you beat Demigra



Yes, in exact order, but I was thinking it was set before chronologically because otherwise Demigra wouldn't be able to control him. 



> When you talk to trunks he says thanks for your help with Demigra but we still got more work to do
> 
> His magic was all pre planned to work at a certain time even if he is dead



That makes more sense I guess. 

Though, Broly is still much more powerful than before because of Demigra's magic and that the wormhole also has something to do with it. Which is noted when you're protecting Gohan from Broly. 

Considering that someone like Hercule can become a Cell Saga level threat with it. I am going to ahead and say someone like Broly would benefit a lot from it.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> Yes, in exact order, but I was thinking it was set before chronologically because otherwise Demigra wouldn't be able to control him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



even ignoring that... not exactly outside the realm of DB games to wank Broly's power all to hell 
maybe they were using DBM broly.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Yeah, I don't think that FW's ranking really matter for this but there's a lot of focus on that.

I think that Demigra is at least above Buu Saga power scaling, but well below BoG power scaling. 
He's in Fusion Saga power scaling IMO.
Definitely above Gotenks/Gohan... Buuhan/Vegitto if I had to guess.

Magic and hax make him a god level threat though.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> even ignoring that... not exactly outside the realm of DB games to wank Broly's power all to hell
> maybe they were using DBM broly.



DBXV already has the awesome mustaches and beards. 

Half way there.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

Demigra could be dead, but still around in things you do later, because time travel.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Yeah, I don't think that FW's ranking really matter for this but there's a lot of focus on that.
> 
> I think that Demigra is at least above Buu Saga power scaling, but well below BoG power scaling.
> He's in Fusion Saga power scaling IMO.
> ...



I'd have to disagree. For the simple fact he's fighting the same level of goku that was evenly trading hits with Beerus(which he did in base and SSJ1) and fighting him in ssj3, which, even if it's a very small boost
(and btw, if you missed it, Tori explained SSJ2 and 3 were static boosts goku'd eventually discard, so multipliers are almost certainly not canon and thus it could be a very small increase)
is still above a goku that fought 70% beerus.
In other words... he kicked the shit out of a goku capable of getting that scaling.
I'd put him at SS at that point too.


edit: also going to point out demigra gets no anime scaling at all atm. outside of broly it's stuck close to canon for now


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

I agree with this disagreement.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> edit: also going to point out demigra gets no anime scaling at all atm. outside of broly it's stuck close to canon for now



I disagree with this edit. Well, sort of. 

Bardock was there too, and if they're both there that means for the most part as long as it doesn't contradict anything the films are canon to DBXV.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> I disagree with this edit. Well, sort of.
> 
> Bardock was there too, and if they're both there that means for the most part as long as it doesn't contradict anything the films are canon to DBXV.



the films aren't even really canon to eachother, short of the broly movies. The most you could argue for is that the broly/bardock movies are canon.
Bardock was already made canon by tori regardless(though not his ssj stuff)


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## RandomLurker (Mar 11, 2015)

The Bardock special was retconned by Dragon Ball Minus, so I don't think it counts as solid canon anymore, at least not manga canon. It can still be considered canon to the anime though since DB Minus came out long after the original anime was through its run.


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## Reznor (Mar 11, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> I'd have to disagree. For the simple fact he's fighting the same level of goku that was evenly trading hits with Beerus(which he did in base and SSJ1) and fighting him in ssj3, which, even if it's a very small boost


Goku was not even with Beerus.
Beerus said that Goku lost some power.

IMO, that lose is greater than gain of SSJ3, especially with the static boost interpretation.




> (and btw, if you missed it, Tori explained SSJ2 and 3 were static boosts goku'd eventually discard, so multipliers are almost certainly not canon and thus it could be a very small increase)
> is still above a goku that fought 70% beerus.
> In other words... he kicked the shit out of a goku capable of getting that scaling.
> I'd put him at SS at that point too.


I never liked the multipliers personally, and I was always of the opinion that Buu Saga Base Goku > SSJ1 Goku on Namek, but BoG seemed to say otherwise.



> edit: also going to point out demigra gets no anime scaling at all atm. outside of broly it's stuck close to canon for now


Yeah, only considering manga + BoG + DBO + XV atm as the canon for this.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Goku was not even with Beerus.
> Beerus said that Goku lost some power.
> 
> IMO, that lose is greater than gain of SSJ3, especially with the static boost interpretation.
> ...



It doesn't matter if he was even, he was comparable enough to get punches in and take them long after the powerup left him. given that Beerus has very casual SS, and given that this far outperforms what he was doing as SSJ3 goku earlier, he gets the scaling, though beerus is still >>.

The thing with BoG implying that can probably be explained by the fact goku was suppressing his power or something, we know for a fact at this point that buu saga base goku/vegeta are still pretty high up there, at least above SSJ1 namek, for a multitude of reasons in the manga.


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## Featherine (Mar 11, 2015)

I always thought Beerus was like "Huh, that little guy defeated him ? Really..." more than "Oh, I can sense his power and he's definitely not up to the task". I don't even know if Beerus can feel regular Ki, can he ?

As for what Beerus says exactly it's:
Beerus: 今の君には倒せそうもないけど・・・
Ima no kimi ni wa taosesou mo nai kedo...
"It doesn't seem like you could beat him *as you are*" With emphasize on the the "ima no kimi" which is "the you right now".

Well, of course, since Goku doesn't walk around in Full Power. 
So yeah, I think that assessment can be thrown out the window, I always assumed Buu Saga Goku was slightly better than Frieza at Base Full Power, or somewhere around that level.


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## Atem (Mar 11, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Goku was not even with Beerus.



The Goku the Supreme Kai of Time summons with the Dragon Balls is him sometime after BoG. It's noted by Goku during the fight with Demigra, that he was once a god. Demigra exclaims that must be the reason why he can't control etc. 



> Beerus said that Goku lost some power.



I thought we have been over the fact that Goku has absorbed SSG's power, and that taking on that form is unnecessary at this point.


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 11, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> (and btw, if you missed it, Tori explained SSJ2 and 3 were *static boosts* goku'd eventually discard, so multipliers are almost certainly not canon and thus it could be a very small increase)



When did he say that?


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## AgentAAA (Mar 12, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> When did he say that?



my bad, small boosts. messed up something in my head.
though I guess they are somewhat static since he said neither add enough to goku's power now to justify using them. was in a recent interview:





> Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.



so essentially their boost is small enough to not be worth the time at this point.

edit: Regarding an earlier discussion on the time shards bonus quest: I don't think Demigra is dead. The wording used specifically is "Demigra has timed his attack on", rather than "Demigra had" which, by usage of the present tense, implies he's still around at the time of the quest.


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## Featherine (Mar 12, 2015)

That's interesting. I can't help but feel Akira just doesn't want to draw these anymore though 



> Regarding an earlier discussion on the time shards bonus quest: I don't think Demigra is dead. The wording used specifically is "Demigra has timed his attack on", rather than "Demigra had" which, by usage of the present tense, implies he's still around at the time of the quest.



Maybe, but to be honest the translation of Xenoverse is horsecrap at some part. I remember I laughed a couple of times, IIRC there's one time when someone says "Trunks !" as if calling him yet he was never even there to begin with and the character was saying something completely different with his voice.

Checked it again, and I think he's alive actually, a few things point to that I guess:
- Kai of Time: ドミグラのやつ、軸を混乱させるために,時限式で発動する魔術を仕掛けてよね。
Domigura no yatsu, jiku wo konran saseru tame ni, jigenshiki de hatsudou suru majutsu wo shikakete yo ne.
"This blasted Demigra, in order to disrupt the Time Axis, he started to mess around with time periods using his magic."

Keys here are hatsudou and shikakete, which means "to invoke/put into operation" and "start/commence/begin" respectively, sounds like he started using it "right now", you know ?

Another thing just a bit later:
- Trunks says he doesn't feel anything wrong with the scroll~
- Kai of Time: ドミグラが直接操ってるわけじゃないから気配が薄いのかもしれないわ。
Domigura ga chokusetsu ayatsutteru wakejanai kara kehai ga usui no kamishirenai wa.
"Demigra can't act directly so that's why the energy emanating from the scrolls might be too faint to perceive".
After that she tells him to examine them one by one.

To me, it looks like the Bardock/Broly thing is taking place at a time when Demigra wasn't even out of the Crack yet, since he "cannot act directly" as per her own words.
Also, just playing the thing again, Trunks was scared shitless that the FW was caught in the explosion, I doubt that this kind of explosion would be anything to End of Game FW to be honest, well, I guess Frieza WAS amped up, but still.


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## Reznor (Mar 12, 2015)

Even if Demigra is killed, time travel.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 13, 2015)

alright, playing through the broly quest, the game does explain it. apparently due to the change in history, broly's powers were considered multiplied. Thus, given he's apparently got a huge boost and given general wank, the difference in power is explained "well enough" either way.
Though I'm still on the side that it's a flashback, given they keep using demigra's name in the present tense.


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## Reznor (Mar 13, 2015)

Time travel


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## King Kakarot (Mar 14, 2015)

It's worth noting out that Demigra does indeed get scaled from the anime seeing as he made Super 17 alot stronger due to his boost

(xenoverse makers lowkey saying that God ki>normal ki)


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## Atem (Mar 14, 2015)

King Kakarot said:


> It's worth noting out that Demigra does indeed get scaled from the anime seeing as he made Super 17 alot stronger due to his boost
> 
> (xenoverse makers lowkey saying that God ki>normal ki)



So, Demigra is still alive then as of DLC?


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