# Hanzo vs mei



## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

Assumptions: 
Assume hanzo can use his fire jutsu without needing to actually place the tags there before hand. assume he can summon it and have it converge towards Mei (otherwise its a shit jutsu) 

location: forest
distance: 25m 
mindset: utter blood lust

Who wins?

I think Mei acid mists the battlefield and keeps doing so till she catches hanzo


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## Alex Payne (Apr 13, 2015)

Poison cloud is faster, deadlier and with greater AoE. Bloodlusted Hanzo summons Ibuse and it's gg.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

can u prove its faster or is that ur assumption ?

i dont see how it can be. considering hanzo must first summon ibuse. 
so ur saying he can summon ibuse and ibuse can spit it out before Mei can spit out acid mist? 

also if Acid mist and poison cloud clash wont the acid mist melt the poison gas casually? 

as for greater AoE i believe u making that up. zabuza can battlefield wide cover with hidden mist. why Mei with acid mist cant do the same is beyond me. She also never used it in a 1 on 1 situation but based on her chakra levels should be very easy to pull off

 

how he is summoning and ibuse spitting poison cloud before Mei can barf acid mist is silly. 2 things must happen before poison gas is out. mei only need do 1 thing to have Acid mist out

NOTE: i encourage u to go back to the chapter where Mei uses hidden mist. 
she uses it and by the next panel even Muu who had been running away from the battle for a while is also blinded by the mist 
She covered the entire battle area by the next panel. So why she cant do the same with Acid mist i dont know maybe u tell me. 

No reason to believe the AoE of her jutsu is smaller than what ibuse showed. Also note ibuse poison mist dissipates after a while. Something that doesnt happen to Mei acid mist.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 13, 2015)

It is Mei who must show sufficient feats with acid mist. How good is best AoE? How actually potent it is? Her known feat isn't good enough for you are describing. Especially when you consider indoor / outdoor differences.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

covering the distance between the kages to madara to Muu who had already covered a significant distance as he started running away from the battle several panels before hidden mist was used. 

How potent is it? read DB!! also potent enough to melt rib cage which is far far far far above anything hanzo can use to defend himself 

outdoor she used hidden mist to cover the entire battle field. why would acid mist be different ? its still mist with nothing different bar it boils the person 

Mei got AoE on her side. madara katon jutsu was easily quenched by Mei suiton for example. When it comes to AoE Mei is one of the more impressive ninjas


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Hanzou can win low to mid diff in his old rusty version. While prime Hanzou neg diffs her.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

ok if u say so
imma argue with Alex he bringing more to the table 
less boring


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 13, 2015)

25m start, Flood Dragon is out before poison cloud is even an option. 

Hanzo surfs the landscape until every bone in his body is broken.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

@davizwiz
pls do show Db statements or panels implying her flood dragon can do any sort of damage to hanzo


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## Ashi (Apr 13, 2015)

What stops Mei from washing Hanzo out


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

I am not sure tensa. am sure there is an explanation
to me she is well suited to beat him without much trouble.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 13, 2015)

I don't see Hanzo being capable of dodging Mei's Acid Mist effectively at close range and mid range, especially for multiple times. Even Edo Madara barely dodged the attack at mid-range which is a fairly impressive feat for Mei also with the fact that she only needs one seal to use it and all her jutsus are shown to have a fairly high activation time IMO. 

 Plus, Hanzo really has no chance avoiding Mei's Sutiton. Possibly with Shunshin, but he doesn't constantly use Shunshin as it leaves him with an opening.

 In CQC, Mei does get chopped into 2 pieces and if Hanzo can somewhat stall Mei, then she will be killed by Hanzo's Salamander blitzing Mei from underground and killing her off with poison.

 With a starting distance of 25m and the fact that Mei can use her Acid fairly quickly, I'd say both can win with high difficulty IMO. Well, unless Hanzo decides to Shunshin towards Mei and engage in CQC, but that goes against Hanzo's fighting style of summoning Salamander first anyways.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 13, 2015)

A water dragon+yoton follow up kills him and the yoton might not even be needed.

The hanzo with feats is not even mid kage level by part 2 standards. Elite jounin/lowest kage is his level.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

Hanzou is the fastest ninja in the water. If Mei uses a massive suiton, then Hanzou just moves throw it easily.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

am just impressed at her hidden mist range
sure she can do the same with acid mist
if so bye bye hanzo and ibuse never shows up for the fight


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> am just impressed at her hidden mist range
> sure she can do the same with acid mist
> if so bye bye hanzo and ibuse never shows up for the fight



Sure? What proofs do you have?

And even if she could It wouldn't be a bye bye. It would only make the combat more balanced.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

At Long-Rang, Hanzo can beat Mei with Ibusei's Gas Cloud and Mei can beat Hanzo with her Massive Water Dragon, but Hanzo is more likely to pull Ibusei as his opening move than Mei is to pull her Water-Dragon, as she's never started with a Massive Suiton technique. If the fight goes into CQC. Hanzo could get killed by Mei's Acidic mist, but Mei could get killed by poisoned weapons, poison breath, and Ibusei taking her by surprise just as easily. Hanzo simply has more win conditions than Mei does, and this is w/o knowing all of Hanzo's capabilities. And i'm assuming this is Rusty-Hanzo as otherwise Prime-Hanzo easily wins.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> At Long-Rang, Hanzo can beat Mei with Ibusei's Gas Cloud and Mei can beat Hanzo with her Massive Water Dragon, but Hanzo is more likely to pull Ibusei as his opening move than Mei is to pull her Water-Dragon, as she's never started with a Massive Suiton technique. If the fight goes into CQC. Hanzo could get killed by Mei's Acidic mist, but Mei could get killed by poisoned weapons, poison breath, and Ibusei taking her by surprise just as easily. Hanzo simply has more win conditions than Mei does, and this is w/o knowing all of Hanzo's capabilities. And i'm assuming this is Rusty-Hanzo as otherwise Prime-Hanzo easily wins.



fairly convenient post. she didnt use it against sasuke cuz the situation called for acid mist which can melt susanoo defense. same reason she used lava against madara. 
she can use flood dragon off the bat if she deems it necessary. though i see no reason why acid mist doesnt eat through the poison gas killing ibuse and hanzo 

why would she go into cqc?  ur arguments sound desperate. she is a mid range fighter. thats no different from saying if deidara goes cqc. its silly to even post such. u can do better

acid mist is not cqc. Mei had to reduce the Ph or she could have melted everyone in the next room once sasuke broke through the hall way. 

its rusty hanzo i dont know who this prime hanzo is. are him  prime hiruzen, prime nagato and  prime itachi friends? 

u and several other posters have said there is no way to tell how much stronger prime itachi was despite zetsu calling him invincible which is far more hype than hanzo. 
however somehow prime hanzo is supposed to be this godly figure

lets not forget 13 year old itachi trolled a stronger version of the orochimaru that fought hanzo. 

just saying 

since u are going to contradict urself and say based on feats Mei acid mist isnt as large as her hidden mist. what feats does hanzo breath have for u to say it can even be effective at greater than 1 m away?


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## Kai (Apr 14, 2015)

Hanzo's poison cloud through Ibuse has more AOE and is more mobile as it's produced through Ibuse, who can also tunnel underground and get within CQC range of Mei. I also see Hanzo as being far more intelligent and experienced in active battle than Mei is, so he will probably get his poison in a better position than Mei can get her acid mist in.

Hanzo mid-high difficulty.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

poison cloud cant be spammed though. Acid mist can. 
so yes hanzo would be the smarter fighter he would need to be. 

also ibuse isnt coming out to do anything or even surviving when the battlefield will be covered in acid mist.


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## Bonly (Apr 14, 2015)

I'd favor Mei to win more times then not. Massive Suitons to help counter Hanzo's Katon, two deadly KG to keep Hanzo on his toes and possible overwhelm him and Dotons to help avoid poison gas(though that requires great timing) has me leaning towards Mei.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

Mei requires too much set up and knowledge assumptions to have a good chance to win.

Even if Mei immediately goes for massive water-dragon at match start. She needs to create the water source first with Suiton: Suijinchū, than use Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu, and than the Water-Dragon needs to cross the large starting distance to reach Hanzo.

Summoning Ibusei should be just as quick as Suiton: Suijinchū, it takes one hand-seal and the actual summoning is instant [as it's an act of S/T]. Ibusei spitting out the gas cloud and it covering the starting distance should take less time than Mei using Suiton: Suiryūdan and it crossing the starting distance, considering Ibusei's Gas covered a large distance than a huge mountain by the time Chiyo could actually think that this was Gas. So Ibusei's Gas would still hit Mei, before the Water Dragon hits Hanzo, and w/o knowledge of the cloud being poisonous that's GG. 

So the only way Mei wins with Suitons at the start is if she uses Suiton: Suijinchū and Suiton: Suiryūdan, while Hanzo does not have Ibusei-Gas the area. And Hanzo is more likely to start with Kuchiyose: Ibusei and Gas Cloud, than Mei is to start with Suiton: Suijinchū and Suiton: Suiryūdan, as she's never stated a match that way before. Even if one wants to say Mei is more likely to start with her large Suitons because it's long-rang, Hanzo should than be even more likely to start with his long-range Gas cloud than, if were being far.

Hanzo also has more win conditions in CQC, due to poisoned weapons, poisoned breath, and Ibusei Doton + Gas combo. 

Mei really only has more win conditions [based on feats] if the match stays close enough that her Acid can reach Hanzo, but far enough away that his breath and weapons can't reach her. However even than she could go down to Ibusei still and there is little reason for Hanzo to say at Mid-Range, when he's more apt at ether Long-Range fighting w/ Ibusei or CQC w/ poisoned breath/weapons/etc..., so he'll ether close in w/ Shunshin or create distance with Shunshin. Well at least that's based on feats, because he could have powerful Mid-Range Jutsu, but if that's the case than Mei holding the upper hand in Mid-Range is a moot point anyway. 

Mei can certainly win if things go in her favor, but even after evaluating the match two times, Hanzo still seems like he has more win conditions and that's with a fraction of Mei's panel time to accumulate feats.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Mei requires set up but hanzo who needs to summon ibuse doesnt 


feel free to evaluate the match again where u dont invent some flood dragon restrictions. Mei blocked madara jutsu then followed up with another jutsu. which btw came from her mouth. cuz u decided to so horribly troll allow me to show u the scan. look closesly at where the water for flood dragon stems from 

have u seen it?
Link removed 

it came from her mouth bottom left panel 

look again please
Link removed

i think u can do better with less bias turrin i mean u just flat out made up Mei needing a source to use water dragon despite the likes of kakashi and darui being able to use water jutsu with no source. very dissapointing, imma have to neg u for that


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## Thunder (Apr 14, 2015)

Mei doesn't need a water source for Suiton: Suiryūdan if she can already produce enough water for Suiton: Suijinchū _without_ a source. That makes no sense and is just a false restriction. 

She simply flowed one Suiton into another, a sign of Mei's skill with the element. Doesn't mean those jutsu must be produced in that exact order.

*Databook 1 - Suiton: Suiryuudan no Jutsu:* 


> NINJUTSU; Suiton: Suiryuudan no jutsu (Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet technique)
> User: Momochi Zabuza
> Offensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: B
> 
> ...



The bold is exactly what Mei did there.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Thunder even on panel she did it with no source
i honestly believe its just fan based trolling. cant claim oh i forgot that little detail, yet remember the name of the jutsu she used right before. Then base part of an argument based on a false convenient assumption 

i really hate it when people do that. This isnt different from chidori nagashi can only be used through sasuke sword. Simply wanting to say the character i like wins so ill make sure to either not inform myself about the other character or straight up place restrictions on their techniques


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## Thunder (Apr 14, 2015)

The Suiton stuff aside, I do think Hanzō would win some scenarios if he immediately summons Ibuse and gasses the place. The area-of-effect is massive and Mei can't do much about the poison once it starts spreading.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Why cant Mei use acid mist to burn it up?
its not like the poison gas got some durability that would allow it to by pass acid mist. she uses acid mist and it disperese the poison gas. 

Gai did something similar to rokubi roting gas with Asa kujaku


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## Thunder (Apr 14, 2015)

It's been awhile since I read Obito vs. Kakashi / Gai / Naruto / Bee. But didn't Gai _blow_ the gas away with Asa Kujaku? Besides, Mei can't produce enough acid mist to clear all the poison before it gets her.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Thunder said:


> It's been awhile since I read Obito vs. Kakashi / Gai / Naruto / Bee. But didn't Gai _blow_ the gas away with Asa Kujaku? Besides, Mei can't produce enough acid mist to clear all the poison before it gets her.



he did use asa kujaku yes 

Why assume she cant. she only need create something 1/10 of the size to disperse the poison gas coming in her immediate vicinity. 

its poison gas therefore the concentration in the air is very important 

she doesnt need acid mist with the same AoE to get rid of the technique

no exaggeration here but even itachi katon will get rid of the poison. poison meters away from Mei wont affect her and it gives her enough time to jump away 

also note the poison barely stays in the air that long. Mifune fought hanzo right after hanzo used the poison gas and was unaffected by the poison 

if we are to claim he was immune, then why did he choose to hold his breath when ibuse came beneath him. 

Also if poison was still in the air wont he have died by sucking in air when he held his breath?


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## Thunder (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> he did use asa kujaku yes
> 
> Why assume she cant. she only need create something 1/10 of the size to disperse the poison gas coming in her immediate vicinity.
> 
> ...



Because Mei can't burn up the acid before it surrounds her. It's an incredibly fast attack with a massive area-of-effect. So I think the scenario where Mei inhales _some_ of the poison is more likely than the scenario where Mei just completely no sells Ibuse's main attack (which will take her off guard) with a _small_ amount of acid mist.



> no exaggeration here but even itachi katon will get rid of the poison. poison meters away from Mei wont affect her and it gives her enough time to jump away


It is an exaggeration, though. The poison cloud is too massive. I don't know why you're ignoring that fact. _It took out an entire platoon in seconds_. Mei won't fare any better.



> also note the poison barely stays in the air that long. Mifune fought hanzo right after hanzo used the poison gas and was unaffected by the poison


It doesn't need to stick around for very long. 



> if we are to claim he was immune, then why did he choose to hold his breath when ibuse came beneath him.


Mifune took a large breath there because he didn't want to suffocate in a confined space filled with more poison air than clean air. 



> Also if poison was still in the air wont he have died by sucking in air when he held his breath?


The poison wasn't in the air at that point.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Because Mei can't burn up the acid before it surrounds her. It's an incredibly fast attack with a massive area-of-effect. So I think the scenario where Mei inhales _some_ of the poison is more likely than the scenario where Mei just completely no sells Ibuse's main attack (which will take her off guard) with a _small_ amount of acid mist.



but before it surrounds her it will come from ibuse and move towards her correct. are u saying if she spits acid mist the acid mist does nothing and the poison gas moves towards Mei and trolls her?

i dont see how ibuse poison could take her off guard. it barfs out a purple gas from its mouth. doesnt take brains to know the gas should be either avoided something she can do or countered with acid mist. again she will have to be swallowed up by it to be affected by it. 

hitting it with acid mist should burn up the area which will cover Mei immediate vicinity 

if we assume poison gas length and height is 50X50. With an acid mist of 10X10 it means 
poison gas isnt within a 10sqm area from Mei. she should be just fine. The poison gas effective period is very very short

can u tell me why. Mei acid mist cant work the way gai asa kujaku worked against corosive gas ?

wasnt asa kujaku used to block 1000 sharks despite the fact that it didnt defeat all 1000 the technique was mitigated. 

Mei smaller acid mist should be more than enough. considering acid mist will eat through poison gas not the other way round



> It is an exaggeration, though. The poison cloud is too massive. I don't know why you're ignoring that fact. _It took out an entire platoon in seconds_. Mei won't fare any better.



its massive but doesnt stop the fact that poison gas isnt immune to being burnt up. i dont see why it should be. its gas. it doesnt have much in the way of speed or ability to overwhelm offenses 



> It doesn't need to stick around for very long.



it stuck around for 1 panel 



> Mifune took a large breath there because he didn't want to suffocate in a confined space filled with more poison air than clean air.
> 
> The poison wasn't in the air at that point.


[/QUOTE]

precisely it also wasnt in the air from the start of the match. despite the fact that it was used right before. 
if the poison could stay in the air for long periods ibuse wont need to keep refilling the air with poison gas every 5 minutes.


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## Ashi (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> fairly convenient post. she didnt use it against sasuke cuz the situation called for acid mist which can melt susanoo defense. same reason she used lava against madara.
> she can use flood dragon off the bat if she deems it necessary. though i see no reason why acid mist doesnt eat through the poison gas killing ibuse and hanzo
> 
> why would she go into cqc?  ur arguments sound desperate. she is a mid range fighter. thats no different from saying if deidara goes cqc. its silly to even post such. u can do better
> ...




Doesn't reducing the pH just make it that more acidic?


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Mei doesn't need a water source for Suiton: Suiryūdan
> 
> She simply flowed one Suiton into another, a sign of Mei's skill with the element. Doesn't mean those jutsu must be produced in that exact order.
> 
> ...


Suiryuudan doesn't need a source, but that doesn't mean Mei didn't use a source to make such a large Suiryuudan. Mei uses Suijinchū to fuel her large water-dragons. It's just like how Kisame can use Suitons w/o a source, but he creates one or uses one for his more massive Suitons. I'm sure she could use smaller ones w/o a source, but smaller ones aren't beating Hanzo.



> if she can already produce enough water for Suiton: Suijinchū _without_ a source. That makes no sense and is just a false restriction.


She doesn't produce the water for Suiton: Suijinchū, the Data-books states she draws it from underground.


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## Thunder (Apr 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Suiryuudan doesn't need a source, but that doesn't mean Mei didn't use a source to make such a large Suiryuudan. Mei uses Suijinchū to fuel her large water-dragons. It's just like how Kisame can use Suitons w/o a source, but he creates one or uses one for his more massive Suitons. I'm sure she could use smaller ones w/o a source, but smaller ones aren't beating Hanzo.



I would be on board with what you're saying here Turrin, but there's a problem: you can see water coming from Mei's mouth here. If Mei merely shaped Suijinchū into a dragon there, generating water internally wouldn't have been necessary.  

In other instances where Suiryūdan is cast via a source of water, we never see water coming from the caster's mouth. That only happens when the caster kneads chakra internally.



> She doesn't produce the water for Suiton: Suijinchū, the Data-books states she draws it from underground.


Interesting. This is the first time I'm hearing this. Can you post the entry?


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## Thunder (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> but before it surrounds her it will come from ibuse and move towards her correct. are u saying if she spits acid mist the acid mist does nothing and the poison gas moves towards Mei and trolls her?



Pretty much. You have the take the scale of the jutsu into account here. In comparison to Ibuse's poison cloud (which covered a large portion of the forest), Mei's acid mist is miniscule. Furthermore, in an open space acid mist is less effective. That's way Mei relies on Yōton more.



> i dont see how ibuse poison could take her off guard. it barfs out a purple gas from its mouth. doesnt take brains to know the gas should be either avoided something she can do or countered with acid mist. again she will have to be swallowed up by it to be affected by it.


The poison cloud took an entire division off guard, but not Mei who also lacks knowledge of it? What? 

The _speed_ and _scope_ of the poison cloud will take Mei off guard.



> hitting it with acid mist should burn up the area which will cover Mei immediate vicinity
> 
> if we assume poison gas length and height is 50X50. With an acid mist of 10X10 it means
> poison gas isnt within a 10sqm area from Mei. she should be just fine. The poison gas effective period is very very short


I see no reason to believe this. Your argument that Mei protects herself from all angles with acidic mist in an open space is not convincing.



> can u tell me why. Mei acid mist cant work the way gai asa kujaku worked against corosive gas ?
> 
> wasnt asa kujaku used to block 1000 sharks despite the fact that it didnt defeat all 1000 the technique was mitigated.


We're talking about two different attacks here. 

Asu Kujaku are punches that move so fast they create _fire_. Even you or I can throw a flurry of punches at a small cloud of smoke and we'll disturb some of the smoke. Now, imagine punches on the level of Asu Kujaku. 



> its massive but doesnt stop the fact that poison gas isnt immune to being burnt up. i dont see why it should be. its gas. it doesnt have much in the way of speed or ability to overwhelm offenses


I'm not sure how you can say the poison cloud isn't fast. I'd post the scans but I know you're already aware of them. 

And the way you're describing acid mist here, it sounds like you think it forms a protective barrier around Mei's body. That's just not the case man. 



> precisely it also wasnt in the air from the start of the match. despite the fact that it was used right before.
> if the poison could stay in the air for long periods ibuse wont need to keep refilling the air with poison gas every 5 minutes.


I don't see how the poison's staying power is overly important here. Mei is instantly getting caught once Ibuse spews the poison. And she can't produce enough acid mist quickly enough an open space to do anything about it.


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## Bonly (Apr 14, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Furthermore, in an open space acid mist is less effective. That's way Mei relies on Yōton more.



Are we really sure that's why she relies on Yoton more then Futton? During the Kage summit Mei after a white Zetsu clones helped Sasuke and he got out of that confined area, Mei said that she needed to make the mist less acidic to protect the others, that seems to point that she can 't really use her Futton around allies due to hurting them along with the enemy. As we know Mei(since she popped up) has been in very few fights and pretty much all of them had her paired up with some people, when she ran into Black Zetsu during the war she was with a squad of people, when she took on Madara with the Gokage she was with people for the most part, when her and the other Kages got back to the battle field near the end of things she was with other people. 

The one time she was by herself it was off panel for the most part and as you can see by Susanoo's fist, it was watery as if it was hit by her Yoton or her Futton(could've been either one) and started to melt. Couldn't it be just as likely that she relies on her Yoton more as it's easier to use/control when she's with teammates and keep it's usefulness as oppose to using Futton rather then it being a case that Futton is less effective power wise?


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I would be on board with what you're saying here Turrin, but there's a problem: you can see water coming from Mei's mouth here. If Mei merely shaped Suijinchū into a dragon there, generating water internally wouldn't have been necessary.
> 
> In other instances where Suiryūdan is cast via a source of water, we never see water coming from the caster's mouth. That only happens when the caster kneads chakra internally.
> 
> Interesting. This is the first time I'm hearing this. Can you post the entry?


Unless Mei is simply adding to the Water, to the Water generated by Suijinchū. You already cited how someone can use Suiryūdan w/o a water source. So I don't see why it wouldn't make sense for Mei to generate a water source with Suijinchū, and than add to it by vomiting out more water, to make the Dragon even larger.



> Interesting. This is the first time I'm hearing this. Can you post the entry?


It's in the Data-book trans thread, pg 5, I did it a long time ago.



Bonly said:


> Are we really sure that's why she relies on Yoton more then Futton? During the Kage summit Mei after a white Zetsu clones helped Sasuke and he got out of that confined area, Mei said that she needed to make the mist less acidic to protect the others, that seems to point that she can 't really use her Futton around allies due to hurting them along with the enemy. As we know Mei(since she popped up) has been in very few fights and pretty much all of them had her paired up with some people, when she ran into Black Zetsu during the war she was with a squad of people, when she took on Madara with the Gokage she was with people for the most part, when her and the other Kages got back to the battle field near the end of things she was with other people.
> 
> The one time she was by herself it was off panel for the most part and as you can see by Susanoo's fist, it was watery as if it was hit by her Yoton or her Futton(could've been either one) and started to melt. Couldn't it be just as likely that she relies on her Yoton more as it's easier to use/control when she's with teammates and keep it's usefulness as oppose to using Futton rather then it being a case that Futton is less effective power wise?


I don't think Thunder is doubting that Mei's willingness to use Futton. Rather I believe Thunder is saying that Ibusei's Gas cloud is more effective in an open space, for various reasons. 

For instance at any of the normal NBD ranges Ibusei's Gas cloud is a huge threat to the enemy in a no knowledge scenario. While Acid Mist hasn't been shown to extend to the Longer-NBD Ranges, and even some of the middle of the road ones are more debatable, leaving most dangerous in shorter ranges. Additional in a knowledge scenario, Mei's Acid Mist is much easier for Shinobi to out-run and escape or keep their distance from, while Ibusei's Gas cloud is much more difficult, due to it's vastly greater scope and the fact that Ibusei can move autonomously of Hanzo and can doton, making it more difficult for the enemy to keep track of when and where the gas-cloud is going to be deployed while also dealing with Hanzo at the same time.

Simply put in an enclosed space it doesn't matter much, but in an open one you want the technique with the vastly wide scope and trickier means of deployment, over the one with a more limited scope and straight forward deployment. And in this match specifically if Mei starts with Futton, it isn't reaching Hanzo at this range, but if Hanzo starts out with Ibusei gassing the area it's reaching Mei. Both moves are 1-Shots, w/o ether having knowledge of said technique, but here Hanzo has more opportunities to land his Gas, because his Gas actually will reach Mei at the starting distance.


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## Thunder (Apr 14, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Are we really sure that's why she relies on Yoton more then Futton? During the Kage summit Mei after a white Zetsu clones helped Sasuke and he got out of that confined area, Mei said that she needed to make the mist less acidic to protect the others, that seems to point that she can 't really use her Futton around allies due to hurting them along with the enemy. As we know Mei(since she popped up) has been in very few fights and pretty much all of them had her paired up with some people, when she ran into Black Zetsu during the war she was with a squad of people, when she took on Madara with the Gokage she was with people for the most part, when her and the other Kages got back to the battle field near the end of things she was with other people.
> 
> The one time she was by herself it was off panel for the most part and as you can see by Susanoo's fist, it was watery as if it was hit by her Yoton or her Futton(could've been either one) and started to melt. Couldn't it be just as likely that she relies on her Yoton more as it's easier to use/control when she's with teammates and keep it's usefulness as oppose to using Futton rather then it being a case that Futton is less effective power wise?



Sure, Mei potentially harming her teammates should be taken into consideration as well. 

Location is still an important factor, though. Otherwise, Mei wouldn't have gone to the trouble of luring Sasuke into a sealed off room. At the Kage Summit, Futton would've just moved from a smaller _room_ into a bigger _room_. So it would still be confined to some degree in four walls. Though not as much as before. And because everyone was in there fighting, the odds of _someone_ breathing it in increased significantly.

Outside in an open environment (the location here is a forest) Futton becomes even _less_ effective than if cast inside. So unless Mei has enough time to spread it around using Hidden Mist as cover, I still see Yōton used more over Futton in situations where Mei is fighting outside. Especially against Hanzō who will be riding on Ibuse and thus more elevated.

And I never stated Futton is less effective power wise. Yōton is more _reliable_. it has better range for example. More reliable doesn't necessarily mean more powerful.



Turrin said:


> Unless Mei is simply adding to the Water, to the  Water generated by Suijinchū. You already cited how someone can use  Suiryūdan w/o a water source. So I don't see why it wouldn't make sense  for Mei to generate a water source with Suijinchū, and than add to it by  vomiting out more water, to make the Dragon even larger.



It's certainly possible. I'm just not sure if I buy that. Makes more sense to me that the Mizukage is skilled enough with Suiton to generate a bigger Suiryūdan than most.

Either way, it doesn't change much about the match up in my eyes. I still see Mei having trouble with Ibuse's poison.


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## Bonly (Apr 15, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Sure, Mei potentially harming her teammates should be taken into consideration as well.
> 
> Location is still an important factor, though. Otherwise, Mei wouldn't have gone to the trouble of luring Sasuke into a sealed off room. At the Kage Summit, Futton would've just moved from a smaller _room_ into a bigger _room_. So it would still be confined to some degree in four walls. Though not as much as before. And because everyone was in there fighting, the odds of _someone_ breathing it in increased significantly.



I don't think location was more so an important for why she lead Sasuke to the sealed off room. It seems like less to do with location in itself but more so to do with the fact that people were around which is why she moved to the sealed off room. If no people was around would it still be likely that she still go out her way to get Sasuke in a sealed room simply due to location? 



> Outside in an open environment (the location here is a forest) Futton becomes even _less_ effective than if cast inside.



That goes for a majority of jutsu



> So unless Mei has enough time to spread it around using Hidden Mist as cover, I still see Yōton used more over Futton in situations where Mei is fighting outside. Especially against Hanzō who will be riding on Ibuse and thus more elevated.



Mei was able to use the hidden mist jutsu by spitting it out her mouth and turned the surrounding area pretty misty quite fast near the end of chapter 563. Mei also spits her acid mist out her mouth and she filled this hallway(which seems to be a good handful of meters) with her Futton pretty fast so it shouldn't take longer then a few seconds for to make a decent amount to surround her. With Futton she pretty much goes MC Hammer mode saying "Can't touch this!" as anybody who comes in contact with it with not only melt on the outside but they will also have their insides melt if they breathe in said mist making it a two front attack. Being able to put up a "barrier" which could potentially cover 360 degrees where she controls how acidic it is seems like it would be used more then Yoton whether the location is outside or inside.



> And I never stated Futton is less effective power wise. Yōton is more _reliable_. it has better range for example. More reliable doesn't necessarily mean more powerful.



I know but you know how NF is, if you aren't mentioning power levels every five minutes then your doing something wrong  lol. But on a more serious note I think Futton is more reliable then Yoton due to it's deadliness and what not. Though this is mainly if/when she was by herself that I find it Futton>Yoton reliable wise, otherwise with more people I see it being neck to neck with Yoton slightly being more reliable(depending on the people)


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 15, 2015)

Mei seems well eqipped to deal with Hanzou in my opinion. A hidden mist technique mitigates Ibuse's poison cloud, and he obviously isn't going to use his own poison off the bat given how hesitant he is about removing his mask against high-level opponents.

If knowledge is manga, then Mei knows of Hanzou's reputation and won't hold back. She was fast enough to co-ordinate attacks in unison with V1 Ei, and she could react to Madara's massive katons very quickly when she was still in good physical shape. She should be reflexive enough to jump away when he tries to engage her in CQC, and then expel a Youton or Suiton to keep him at bay. Hidden Mist helps a lot with this too.

Ibuse attacking her from below ground could be dangerous, but then again, I'd expect a Mizukage who uses the Hidden Mist to be at least capable with the Silent Killing jutsu. Failing that, Mei should be able to cover the field in an acidic mist and kill Hanzou before Ibuse has stored poison up. If the mist corrodes into skin enough, his poison sac should erupt and immobilise him, allowing her to finish him off once she escapes to a safe range.

If Mei has no knowledge then Hanzou may surprise her with Ibuse, but I'd expect her to retaliate to a Kuchiyose with Lava or Acid anyway, so I don't think it matters too much.

Mei should win, mid-high difficulty.​​


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## Rocky (Apr 15, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> A hidden mist technique mitigates Ibuse's poison cloud...



How does a mist technique lessen the effects of a poison cloud? 




> She was fast enough to co-ordinate attacks in unison with V1 Ei...



Are you talking about when Mei weaved her signs and spat lava prior to A actually moving, and then went on to spit more lava after A had already struck Madara _and thus stopped moving?_ 

None of that actually required responding to A's speed itself.



> and she could react to Madara's massive katons very quickly when she was still in good physical shape.



She intercepted from off panel when he wasn't even aiming at her. Madara isn't known for crazy seal/jutsu execution speed anyway, so how is that a feat that suggests she can consistently keep Hanzo away from her, who is pretty adapt as close combat?


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## Thunder (Apr 15, 2015)

Bonly said:


> I don't think location was more so an important for why she lead Sasuke to the sealed off room. It seems like less to do with location in itself but more so to do with the fact that people were around which is why she moved to the sealed off room. If no people was around would it still be likely that she still go out her way to get Sasuke in a sealed room simply due to location?



If they were in the same scenario but no one was around? Probably. I mean, it was already taking a while to melt through ribcage Susano, even though they were fighting in an enclosed space. 

If Sasuke had more breathing room (no pun intended) it would be even harder to melt him. 




> That goes for a majority of jutsu



How so? 



> Mei was able to use the hidden mist jutsu by spitting it out her mouth and turned the surrounding area pretty misty quite fast near the end of chapter 563. Mei also spits her acid mist out her mouth and she filled this hallway(which seems to be a good handful of meters) with her Futton pretty fast so it shouldn't take longer then a few seconds for to make a decent amount to surround her. With Futton she pretty much goes MC Hammer mode saying "Can't touch this!" as anybody who comes in contact with it with not only melt on the outside but they will also have their insides melt if they breathe in said mist making it a two front attack. Being able to put up a "barrier" which could potentially cover 360 degrees where she controls how acidic it is seems like it would be used more then Yoton whether the location is outside or inside.


Well, Hidden Mist is different. The massive area-of-effect is built into the jutsu. Even shinobi of Zabuza's caliber are able to produce a thick mist that covers a wide area. Hence why in every case where shinobi were caught in Hidden Mist they didn't attempt to Shunshin out of it. 

Aside from changing the pH levels, Mei can't manipulate Futton to the degree you're describing here. If Mei could she wouldn't need to worry about her Futton leaking out of a room. So if Mei opts to form a "barrier" of Futton around her she's to generate a large amount of Futton in a wide open space (which she doesn't have any feats for) . . . and then remain in that spot. Which isn't the best strategy, especially against someone like Hanzō who can always Shunshin away or burrow underground with Ibuse, reappearing well out of Mei's range. From that distance Hanzō can still attack with the poison cloud. 




> I know but you know how NF is, if you aren't mentioning power levels every five minutes then your doing something wrong  lol. But on a more serious note I think Futton is more reliable then Yoton due to it's deadliness and what not. Though this is mainly if/when she was by herself that I find it Futton>Yoton reliable wise, otherwise with more people I see it being neck to neck with Yoton slightly being more reliable(depending on the people)


That's fine. I don't have a problem with that interpretation. For the record, I do see a concentrated Futton being more powerful than Yōton.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> How does a mist technique lessen the effects of a poison cloud?



Because he can't target her with it when he was no idea where she is.



> Are you talking about when Mei weaved her signs and spat lava prior to A actually moving, and then went on to spit more lava after A had already struck Madara _and thus stopped moving?_



Yes, I am .



> None of that actually required responding to A's speed itself.



Obviously it did. Mei was able to follow Ei's movements, otherwise she would have haphazardly shot lava in Madara's direction while Ei was potentially mid-strike. Being able to follow someone's movements and act accordingly is reaction speed in itself. As soon as Ei throws his strikes Mei immediately follows them up:

this hallway

Her timing was on point. The same could not be said of a ninja who isn't able to keep up with whats going on.



> She intercepted from off panel when he wasn't even aiming at her. Madara isn't known for crazy seal/jutsu execution speed anyway, so how is that a feat that suggests she can consistently keep Hanzo away from her, who is pretty adapt as close combat?



She blocked a large katon that was nowhere near her before it could travel a few meters and hit Tsunade. I'd say thats pretty impressive seal, reaction and jutsu speed. Should be effective enough against Hanzou, who isn't going to be leagues above her in speed anyway.[/indent][/justify]


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## Rocky (Apr 15, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Because he can't target her with it when he was no idea where she is.



The width of the lizard's cloud suggests that Hanzo need not "target" here. He can literally just summon the thing, command it to gas the place, and Mei is likely dead, hidden or not.



> Obviously it did. Mei was able to follow Ei's movements, otherwise she would have haphazardly shot lava in Madara's direction while Ei was potentially mid-strike.



...Mei is not required to follow A's speed so long as she see's him hit Madara _after_ he had already gotten there with Shunshin.



> Being able to follow someone's movements and act accordingly is reaction speed in itself. As soon as Ei throws his strikes Mei immediately follows them up:



What Mei was reacting to was Madara's descent towards the ground. She didn't need to actually keep up with A's flicker to do what she did, because Madara does not fall at A's flicker speeds...



> The same could not be said of a ninja who isn't able to keep up with whats going on.



Mei doesn't need to keep up with A's actual Shunshin to know what's going on. She wasn't attacking A, or even attacking Madara at the same time as A. She was attacking Madara _after A attacked Madara_. 

Why would spewing lava at the ground so that Madara would land in it require following A's speed when A's entire purpose in the "combo" was to just send Madara towards the ground in the first place?



> She blocked a large katon that was nowhere near her before it could travel a few meters and hit Tsunade. I'd say thats pretty impressive seal, reaction and jutsu speed. Should be effective enough against Hanzou, who isn't going to be leagues above her in speed anyway.



No where near her? Interesting. 

I don't know how you know Mei's exact position during her interception feat; she wasn't on panel when Madara attacked Tsunade. For all we know, she could have leapt forward to cast Suitonjutsu the moment Madara leapt back to cast Katon.

I dunno, but something tells me Mei didn't run all the way over there, weave seals, and blast Madara's fireball away all before it could travel a few feet and fry Tsunade.


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Pretty much. You have the take the scale of the jutsu into account here. In comparison to Ibuse's poison cloud (which covered a large portion of the forest), Mei's acid mist is miniscule. Furthermore, in an open space acid mist is less effective. That's way Mei relies on Yōton more.



yes i have taken it into account. its ur assumption that mei acid is so so much smaller thats the issue. 
she had to reduce the Ph of her technique when sasuke broke the hallway. if her technique AOE was so small she wouldnt need to do that



> The poison cloud took an entire division off guard, but not Mei who also lacks knowledge of it? What?



they had their backs turned to it. though. and catching kankuro, omoi and sai of guard isnt a big deal. at all 



> The _speed_ and _scope_ of the poison cloud will take Mei off guard.



they had their backs turned to it. and catching kankuro=/= catching Mei



> I see no reason to believe this. Your argument that Mei protects herself from all angles with acidic mist in an open space is not convincing.



it actually is. the mist will be spread out. it will be carried by air current. its not a blast with much force. it fills up the general area. isnt that how Mei mist filled the entire hallway sasuke was in?



> We're talking about two different attacks here.



both have the ability to melt or burn things on contact 



> Asu Kujaku are punches that move so fast they create _fire_. Even you or I can throw a flurry of punches at a small cloud of smoke and we'll disturb some of the smoke. Now, imagine punches on the level of Asu Kujaku.



the scale of asa kujaku can be matched. Mei already showed this with hidden mist. we got no reason to believe she cant pull off acid mist on the scale of her hidden mist. 
that caught up to Muu while Muu was running away from the fight. 
 reminds me of something that caught kankuro and the others. oh yes poison gas. sadly Muu is faster than the entire squad of half good shinobi



> I'm not sure how you can say the poison cloud isn't fast. I'd post the scans but I know you're already aware of them.



no character statements to say its fast. spreading a forest in 3 panels isnt fast. not when Bijuudama a technique called slow by obito can do the same in 1 panel



> And the way you're describing acid mist here, it sounds like you think it forms a protective barrier around Mei's body. That's just not the case man.



it doesnt need to. it simply need burn the gas coming towards Mei. no protective barrier here



> I don't see how the poison's staying power is overly important here. Mei is instantly getting caught once Ibuse spews the poison. And she can't produce enough acid mist quickly enough an open space to do anything about it.



u saying that based on kankuro and the others getting caught with their backs turned. they are fodder to mei 

note: did u notice turrin still trying to make it sound like water dragon wasnt used without a source. despite seeing the panel 3 times. thats bad man!!


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Mei seems well eqipped to deal with Hanzou in my opinion. A hidden mist technique mitigates Ibuse's poison cloud,]​



Ibusei Gas cloud covered an area bigger than a large mountain. Hidden mist is worthless against such large AOE. In-fact it would hurt Mei as she would not see Ibusei's Gas coming.



> and he obviously isn't going to use his own poison off the bat given how hesitant he is about removing his mask against high-level opponents.


It isn't that Hanzo is hesitant to remove the Mask against High-level opponents, it's that he only removes his mask against High-level opponents, where he needs to take that risk. Against Mifune he didn't need to take that risk, because he could beat Mifune w/o removing his mask. The mask is essentially there to prevent him from going down to lucky or cheap shot, and poisoning his companions.

That's not to say I disagree with the fact that he won't immediately remove his mask, because he won't immediately know Mei requires him to take that risk, and in-fact Mei might not require such a risk in the first place. However if Hanzo acknowledges Mei as someone that dangerous he will remove his mask.



> If knowledge is manga, then Mei knows of Hanzou's reputation and won't hold back. She was fast enough to co-ordinate attacks in unison with V1 Ei, and she could react to Madara's massive katons very quickly when she was still in good physical shape. She should be reflexive enough to jump away when he tries to engage her in CQC, and then expel a Youton or Suiton to keep him at bay.


Mei can cast Jutsu very quickly, but Hanzo kept up with someone legendary for their speed and kenjutsu for 5min so he's no slouch ether. The difference i'm seeing is that Hanzo only needs to scratch Mei to win out in CQC, and it's a-lot to ask of Mei to avoid all of Hanzo's attacks w/o a single scratch, especially if she doesn't know they are poisonous to begin with. Than she also has to keep track of Ibusei whose tricky enough with Doton to catch a master CQC specialist like Mifune off guard and swallow him, at the same time.



> Hidden Mist helps a lot with this too.


I really only see Hidden-Mist as a disadvantage unless Ibusei is removed from the field before Mei casts it. Even than we have to consider that Hanzo himself fights alongside Ibusei who is capable of generating a massive cloud that also acts as a smoke-screen, so chances are he has some proficiency fighting with his LOS blocked.



> Ibuse attacking her from below ground could be dangerous, but then again, I'd expect a Mizukage who uses the Hidden Mist to be at least capable with the Silent Killing jutsu.


Again Mifune whose legendary for his CQC skill and speed couldn't react to Ibusei's Doton ambush while his attention was split on Hanzo, I really doubt Mei, silent killing or not, can.



> Failing that, Mei should be able to cover the field in an acidic mist and kill Hanzou before Ibuse has stored poison up


This assumes Mei survives Ibusei's first Gas Cloud, which I really see no way that she can.

Granted it's always possible that she could get her Acid Cloud out before Hanzo summons Ibusei, but given the range, her Cloud won't reach Hanzo at match start, and i'd also think Hanzo would be very predisposed to pulling out Ibusei as his first move, and his gas cloud can reach Mei from the starting distance.



> If the mist corrodes into skin enough, his poison sac should erupt and immobilise him, allowing her to finish him off once she escapes to a safe range.


If Hanzo gets in range of Mei's Acid Cloud w/o knowledge and Mei uses it he looses. The problem is if Mei gets into range of Ibusei's Gas Cloud w/o knowledge [and even possibly w/ knowledge] she looses; and Ibusei's Gas cloud has the greater range and Hanzo is likely to make summoning Ibusei his first move. So again the odds of Mei loosing to Gas-Cloud given these conditions is much higher than Hanzo loosing to Acid Cloud; though both can one-shot thee other with these techniques.



> If Mei has no knowledge then Hanzou may surprise her with Ibuse, but I'd expect her to retaliate to a Kuchiyose with Lava or Acid anyway, so I don't think it matters too much.


Nether of which can reach Hanzo at the starting distance, but again Ibusei's Gas Cloud can reach Mei.​


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2015)

Chapter 577 
is really all i got to say. that flood dragon used with no water source that some deny 


...

no way. did i just see it used with no source.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 15, 2015)

Rurouni Kenshin

 That's a huge weakness Ibuse has, so Hanzo could lose provided Ibuse doesn't have poison stored at the beginning of the match.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Rurouni Kenshin
> 
> That's a huge weakness Ibuse has, so Hanzo could lose provided Ibuse doesn't have poison stored at the beginning of the match.



Why wouldn't Ibusei have poison stored at the beginning of a match. Right when Hanzo summoned Ibusei he had poison stored in the war arc, and the assumption is that characters come into these battles at their best, unless it's gauntlet, so I don't see how it's fair to give Hanzo the handicap of Ibusei already having his pay load spent [on other people?].

Otherwise we might as well say Mei comes into the match low on chakra or already beaten up.


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## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2015)

I have a hard time seeing Mei countering Ibuse coming from underground and eating her. Hidden mist as well might lead to gas intoxicacion as Hanzo won't hesitate to use if he doesn't see a thing.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 15, 2015)

Hanzo rapes. Badly.

Much faster, better CQC skills, and better weaponry. Mei really doesn't have a defense against poison gas, either--other than holding her breath. Hanzo can blow away her mist with explosive tags (like Sakura did to Sasori's poison gas), and evading her lava shouldn't be a problem if Karin could do it; that leaves her with just Suiton, and my money's on Hanzo dodging a water dragon just like he dodged Nagato's ethereal soul-eating dragon. That leaves Mei with nothing; water walls are only gonna drag the fight out for so long before Hanzo or Ibuse gets around them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2015)

If Hanzo really could blow away Mei's Hidden Mist, then one could say that Sai's Division should've been able to blow away Zabuza's Mist though obviously that wasn't the case. It's not like Hanzo would be capable of landing explosive tags. The only time he did was against Young Nagato who still managed to defend against the attack when he was off-guard. With Mei's Massive Suiton and Acid Mist, the moment he does try to use his explosive tags is the moment he gets slaughtered by Mei's Ninjutsu.

 @Turin

 No, I was aware of that. I just wanted to point that out and see if that affects anybody's perspective somewhat.


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2015)

I still dont get how catching fodders, kankuro, sai and omoi 
somehow make poison gas unavoidable 

Is anyone suggesting that Mei jutsu cant catch those guys in a 3 vs 1. i say 3 cuz the other characters dont even have names worth remembering and only use kunai 

Do note that hanzo used ibuse gas because he was tired of chasing. i.e he couldnt catch up to them with speed despite the ungodly hype he is getting atm.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> If Hanzo really could blow away Mei's Hidden Mist, then one could say that Sai's Division should've been able to blow away Zabuza's Mist though obviously that wasn't the case. It's not like Hanzo would be capable of landing explosive tags. The only time he did was against Young Nagato who still managed to defend against the attack when he was off-guard. With Mei's Massive Suiton and Acid Mist, the moment he does try to use his explosive tags is the moment he gets slaughtered by Mei's Ninjutsu.


I agree that the Tags aren't blowing away the mist, unless he has a fuck tone of them, but the Tags are suppose to catch the enemy off guard. That's the whole point of them being camouflaged and used as trap.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> If Hanzo really could blow away Mei's Hidden Mist, then one could say that Sai's Division should've been able to blow away Zabuza's Mist though obviously that wasn't the case.



I forget the source, but Hanzo's specialty--other than poison and marine combat--was said to be explosive tags. Given the number he used on Nagato in a single Jutsu, I buy that he could push the mist back--if only temporarily.



> It's not like Hanzo would be capable of landing explosive tags. The only time he did was against Young Nagato who still managed to defend against the attack when he was off-guard.



Nagato is faster than Pain, who is much faster than Mei.



> With Mei's Massive Suiton and Acid Mist, the moment he does try to use his explosive tags is the moment he gets slaughtered by Mei's Ninjutsu.



Acid mist isn't stopping an explosion. Suiton could, but the threat that poses to Hanzo offensively is virtually nil.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> I forget the source, but Hanzo's specialty--other than poison and marine combat--was said to be explosive tags. Given the number he used on Nagato in a single Jutsu, I buy that he could push the mist back--if only temporarily.




Something thats _easily_ on par with a V1 Ei hit

 I doubt the AoE is large enough to blow away the Mist and even if it was, the time it would take for Hanzo to do that would create an opening for himself and allow Mei an opportunity to land another jutsu.




> Nagato is faster than Pain, who is much faster than Mei.



 Young Nagato has showed inefficiency using the Rinnegan to his advantage. We also have no idea how fast Nagato himself is considering he has no speed feats. The only reason he's as powerful as he is is due to the Rinnegan and his high reactions (none of which he has shown impressive speed feats from).

 But when you think about it, it really doesn't matter if Young Nagato was stronger than Pain (minus the Gedo Mazo) as Nagato was worried about Konan's well-being which was a predictable maneuver that Hanzo used to his advantage.





> Acid mist isn't stopping an explosion. Suiton could, but the threat that poses to Hanzo offensively is virtually nil.



 It's preventing him from using it at this distance as Mei can use jutsus with only requiring a seal which is certainly faster than having to bend over and slam your fist into the ground. It should also be known that Hanzo would have to be immobile to use the ninjutsu, so it's certainly possible that that would give Mei an opportunity to land her jutsu before Hanzo does.

 But really, Hanzo's body is going to be demolished by Mei's Suiton or her Acidic techniques, so the worst that could happen to Mei is being paralyzed for a few days while Hanzo's body just melts away.


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2015)

@NarutoX28 mei worst move would be to use hidden mist. like absolute worst move. she hands hanzo the win if she does that. 
he poison gases the place and she drops 
cuz she wont see the gas coming 

However i am of the opinion she can use acid mist on the same scale as her hidden mist which should be enough to eat through poison gas


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 17, 2015)

Another trick Hanzou has, that none has mention, It's that Ibuse seems to have some kind of chakra sensing powers. It knew where Mifune was while being inside the ground. Even if Mei hides herself, Ibuse would find her an appear just under her feet.


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2015)

yh it has no sensing power
the same way kakashi has none yet when he uses doton he knows to appear exactly under the user
same for deidara 

no sensing powers there

kishi explains deidara uses some magnetism in a way to find the opponent. but thats not the same as sensing a person or that would make kakashi and deidara sensors which they arent


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 17, 2015)

Not really seeing what the issue for the cloud is, there's no way he summons Ibuse & the cloud is out before Mei's Water Dragon is already cast and being guided toward Hanzo. The activation speed for that Jutsu is astonishing, it is guided, and the speed of it engulfed Madara not once, but twice. 

Is anyone else dumbfounded that people are suggesting Hanzo, of all people, has the capacity to dodge a technique that Madara did not react to or counter twice in the manga? Yes, *Madara*. Far above the likes of a *Hanzo*, who failed to scratch _Mifune_ in combat (poisoned weapon) granted with an immortal advantage (Edo- you know- cannot die from mortal wounds- nearly instantaneous healing capacity).

Madara fails to avoid/counter it twice = but Hanzo can do it!

The gross underestimation of her techniques and the pure stupidity when relating to Mei's power scale in this section is just appalling.

With what he has shown, Hanzo cannot beat Mei with 25m separating them absent any form of knowledge.


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## LostSelf (Apr 17, 2015)

Madara couldn't avoid because he was in mid-air, pushed heavily by Tsunade's punch and was in Susano'o. Ei ha to amp his speed in order to crush his guard. I doubt Mei's water dragon is as fast as Ei to the point of blitizing Madara.

He also tends to be hit, because he let Tsunade hit him and only bothered to block with Susano'o when he could've dodged Tsunade easily by himself. Mei had the same treatment.


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2015)

You are pointlessly overhyping a water jutus with zero feats of being able to damage hanzo if he took the full brunt of it or even worse ran into it. 
it will knock him back big whoop


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Apr 27, 2015)

Knowledge? I'm assuming full knowledge.

Mei will probably open with Suiton: Suijinchū, following it up with Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu if necessary in order to create distance between herself and Hanzō; avoiding contact with his Kusarigama.

At this point I can imagine Hanzō summoning Ibuse, having the salamander  tunnel underground in order to use it as a hidden trump card. He will then use Katon: Kibaku Enjin and have the explosive tags make it's way towards the Mizukage.

In response,  Mei will  use Kirigakure no Jutsu in order to obscure Hanzō's line of vision, succeeding with another Suiton: Suijinchū to wash away any explosive tags that have come near enough to be a threat. I don't think Hanzō will have Ibuse attempt to swallow Mei, with the possibility that she has activated Futton: Kōmu no Jutsu. Similarly, Mei will be cautious even with Kirigakure no Jutsu active due to knowledge of Hanzō's skill with Kayakujutsu, Kusarigamajutsu and the possibility that he may rupture his venom sac. 

I think after a long game of Marco Polo, Mei's ability to move freely inside Kirigakure no Jutsu will eventually allow her to hit Hanzō with Yōton: Yōkai no Jutsu  or a Futton: Kōmu no Jutsu, whilst maintaining sufficient distance to avoid CQC and Katon: Kibaku Enjin.


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## Lord Aizen (Apr 27, 2015)

At 25m mei gets destroyed. 25m is nothing. When I was 14 I could run the 40 yard dash at 4.8 seconds. Hanzo being a super human ninja with tons of speed while possessing the body flicker Jutsu can close the gap in less than a second. Hanzo tears her apart in close range


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## Veracity (Apr 27, 2015)

Lord Aizen said:


> At 25m mei gets destroyed. 25m is nothing. When I was 14 I could run the 40 yard dash at 4.8 seconds. Hanzo being a super human ninja with tons of speed while possessing the body flicker Jutsu can close the gap in less than a second. Hanzo tears her apart in close range



? I don't understand the example you used. As Mei isn't just a human, she's superhuman just like Hanzo too... So being able to cross that distance in a split second, doesn't mean she gets blizted as she can react to far faster speeds.


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## Thunder (Apr 27, 2015)

I don't think Mei would get blitzed here. Her jutsu activation speed is impressive. If Hanzō attempts a blitz he runs into a Suiton.


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## Ashi (Apr 27, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I don't think Mei would get blitzed here. Her jutsu activation speed is impressive. If Hanzō attempts a blitz he runs into a Suiton.



Madara would've stopped her I think


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## Thunder (Apr 27, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Madara would've stopped her I think



What do you mean?


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## Lord Aizen (Apr 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> ? I don't understand the example you used. As Mei isn't just a human, she's superhuman just like Hanzo too... So being able to cross that distance in a split second, doesn't mean she gets blizted as she can react to far faster speeds.



I was using the term blitz loosely. Hanzo is faster and can close the distance to defeat her before she performs any Jutsu, similar to what mifune did to hanzo


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## ShadoLord (Apr 27, 2015)

Hanzou should be stronger. 

Prime Hanzou>Sannin>Mei Terumi


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## Nikushimi (Apr 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> *pretty much end things*
> 
> I doubt the AoE is large enough to blow away the Mist



Sakura did it to Sasori's poison gas with only two tags and Hanzo can make literally dozens of them at once.



> and even if it was, the time it would take for Hanzo to do that would create an opening for himself and allow Mei an opportunity to land another jutsu.



Mei isn't landing shit on Hanzo.



> Young Nagato has showed inefficiency using the Rinnegan to his advantage. We also have no idea how fast Nagato himself is considering he has no speed feats. The only reason he's as powerful as he is is due to the Rinnegan and his high reactions (none of which he has shown impressive speed feats from).



Given Nagato's reaction time and upper-body speed, it's not unreasonable to suppose that he'd be up there with the likes of Kakashi, Obito, Itachi, Sasuke, etc. Yahiko's performance as Deva Path was right in that ballpark.



> But when you think about it, it really doesn't matter if Young Nagato was stronger than Pain (minus the Gedo Mazo) as Nagato was worried about Konan's well-being which was a predictable maneuver that Hanzo used to his advantage.



There's no denying that, but the issue is Mei has nothing putting her in Nagato's probable league. She's one of the weakest Kage and has no notable demonstrations of physical ability.



> It's preventing him from using it at this distance as Mei can use jutsus with only requiring a seal which is certainly faster than having to bend over and slam your fist into the ground. It should also be known that Hanzo would have to be immobile to use the ninjutsu, so it's certainly possible that that would give Mei an opportunity to land her jutsu before Hanzo does.



This assumes Mei and Hanzo are of equal speed, which I find incredibly dubious given Hanzo's ability to trade attacks with a speed-oriented physical specialist like Mifune.



> But really, Hanzo's body is going to be demolished by Mei's Suiton or her Acidic techniques, so the worst that could happen to Mei is being paralyzed for a few days while Hanzo's body just melts away.



There aren't many Suiton that seem like they can actually do serious damage; Zabuza got hit by one of the bigger ones and it only winded him. Mei certainly hasn't displayed anything that would put Hanzo down for the count, if it could even hit him in the first place.

Acid mist may be dangerous, but again, Hanzo can simply blow her ass to kingdom come from a safe distance (or at the very least force her to turtle-up with Suiton...and then gas her).


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 27, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Sakura did it to Sasori's poison gas with only two tags and Hanzo can make literally dozens of them at once.



 Sasori's Poison Gas doesn't seem to be created using chakra while Mei's is literally dispersed chakra that can spread to cover a wide AoE (as it engulfed a huge portion of the battlefield against Madara instantly). I don't see anything that suggests Sasori's Poison Gas and Mei's Hidden Mist are comparable.







> Mei isn't landing shit on Hanzo.



 Hanzo using explosive tags will leave him vulnerable as he is immobile and Mei has displayed the ability to form quick seals along with the fact that her ninjutsu only requires one seal. The endless possibilities .... the endless possibilities.





> Given Nagato's reaction time and upper-body speed, it's not unreasonable to suppose that he'd be up there with the likes of Kakashi, Obito, Itachi, Sasuke, etc. Yahiko's performance as Deva Path was right in that ballpark.



 That's a good point considering Nagato's physical capabilities surpasses Yahiko's, so he certainly is quick. And I always agreed with Nagato's reaction time being high, so nothing to argue about that.




> There's no denying that, but the issue is Mei has nothing putting her in Nagato's probable league. She's one of the weakest Kage and has no notable demonstrations of physical ability.



 Kicking Black Zetsu who managed to defeat Juubidara isn't something to laugh at in terms of physical capabilities. 

 Though, personally, I do think Mei's Ninjutsu that can pressure Madara and force him to dodge it is enough to overwhelm Hanzo. 

 But you're correct, we really have no idea how Mei would react to Hanzo's explosive tags. I personally think she has to have fairly high reactions to be capable to perceive V2 Ei's movements and the Susano'o clone movements even though she was getting pummeled (due to lack of willpower and extreme fatigue). 




> This assumes Mei and Hanzo are of equal speed, which I find incredibly dubious given Hanzo's ability to trade attacks with a speed-oriented physical specialist like Mifune.



 Well, that actually doesn't have to be true. After all, Mei formulating just one hand seal requires less effort than slamming your fist into the ground. Even if Mei was only slightly below Hanzo, that doesn't eliminate the possibility of landing a ninjutsu before Hanzo could.



> There aren't many Suiton that seem like they can actually do serious damage; Zabuza got hit by one of the bigger ones and it only winded him. Mei certainly hasn't displayed anything that would put Hanzo down for the count, if it could even hit him in the first place.



 Pushing back Madara's Susano'o isn't a feat? We've seen far weaker Suiton from users such as Itachi that can overwhelm Senjutsu users who have enhanced durability such as SM Kabuto. I see no reason why a more proficient Suiton user can't overwhelm a physically weaker being like Hanzo. Even with the off-chance that Hanzo survives, the Suiton only allows Mei to create an opening used to actually destroy Hanzo. 



> Acid mist may be dangerous, but again, Hanzo can simply blow her ass to kingdom come from a safe distance (or at the very least force her to turtle-up with Suiton...and then gas her).



 I don't see that happening as easily as you may think. If this was Itachi, he'd blow both their asses to kingdom come, but Hanzo against Mei? I'm not so sure about dat.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sasori's Poison Gas doesn't seem to be created using chakra while Mei's is literally dispersed chakra that can spread to cover a wide AoE (as it engulfed a huge portion of the battlefield against Madara instantly). I don't see anything that suggests Sasori's Poison Gas and Mei's Hidden Mist are comparable.



They are both light enough to be airborne; even if Mei forcibly holds it within a certain area like Zabuza's mist, nothing suggests it would retain its shape in the presence of an explosion.



> Hanzo using explosive tags will leave him vulnerable as he is immobile and Mei has displayed the ability to form quick seals along with the fact that her ninjutsu only requires one seal. The endless possibilities .... the endless possibilities.



Hanzo never has to be immobile; he can evade when he needs to evade and attack when the opportunity presents itself, same as anyone else (he canceled a Jutsu to block Mifune's Iai). The thing is, he should be a lot faster than Mei.



> Kicking Black Zetsu who managed to defeat Juubidara isn't something to laugh out in terms of physical capabilities.



Juubi Madara got back up after Night Gai... Pretty sure we're not seriously scaling Mei to that. Zetsu's not a fighter...just a back-stabbing opportunist with some kind of weird, Kaguya-releasing hax.



> Though, personally, I do think Mei's Ninjutsu that can pressure Madara and force him to dodge it is enough to overwhelm Hanzo.



Mei didn't do anything to Madara on her own; half the time she had support from the other Kage distracting Madara or knocking him into her Jutsu.



> Well, that actually doesn't have to be true. After all, Mei formulating just one hand seal requires less effort than slamming your fist into the ground. Even if Mei was only slightly below Hanzo, that doesn't eliminate the possibility of landing a ninjutsu before Hanzo could.



Mei's Jutsu actually have to travel after being expelled from her mouth, whereas Hanzo's tags appear right beneath the target. If it were there were such an easy window to exploit in the execution of that Jutsu, one would think Nagato could have just Shinra Tensei'd his ass like he was doing moments earlier.



> Pushing back Madara's Susano'o isn't a feat? We've seen far weaker Suiton from users such as Itachi that can overwhelm Senjutsu users who have enhanced durability such as SM Kabuto. I see no reason why a more proficient Suiton user can't overwhelm a physically weaker being like Hanzo. Even with the off-chance that Hanzo survives, the Suiton only allows Mei to create an opening used to actually destroy Hanzo.



Kabuto was knocked to the ground and Susano'o was pushed back...but that's really all that happened. Same would happen to Hanzo, and then what? By the time Mei closes in and spits lava or acid at him, he's on his feet again.



> I don't see that happening as easily as you may think. If this was Itachi, he'd blow both their asses to kingdom come, but Hanzo against Mei? I'm not so sure about dat.



Other than Suiton, I'm not seeing a way for Mei to block it. And if she's occupied spitting lava or acid, she can't even use that.


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## EmilyEvelan (May 11, 2015)

May I just say something? 
-Mist = water droplets in the air
-Water density > Gas density
-High density pushes low density
-Mist is flowing away from Mei since her mouth is the center of the jutsu. Poison gas gets pushed away
-Hidden Mist GG's poison gas and renders that ability useless.
And before you pull out the fact that water vapor is a light gas, mist is made of suspended droplets.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

EmilyEvelan said:


> May I just say something?
> -Mist = water droplets in the air
> -Water density > Gas density
> -High density pushes low density
> ...



glad to see this post. though am not sure we can just apply science like that to kishi manga

whats more likely to happen is acid mist simply eats through the poison gas and kills hanzo


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