# Aizen vs Gilgamesh



## Xelloss (Jun 16, 2010)

Normal obd rules this condom Aizen


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## ~Avant~ (Jun 16, 2010)

"Do you have enough swords..."


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## Riddler (Jun 16, 2010)

Aizen started out as a "Death God" (Shinigami) and his current form is closer to Bleach's divinity status right? So Gilgamesh just uses Enkidu to restrain him and then kills Aizen with Harpe (anti-immortality, anti-regen scythe) or some other Nole Phantasm he keeps in storage.

Unless Gilgamesh is in character and starts playing/jobbing of course


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## Cypher0120 (Jun 16, 2010)

How much prep-time does Aizen get?

Does Gilgamesh get access to that little item of his that reveals strengths and weaknesses?


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## Xelloss (Jun 16, 2010)

Any item shows for both, I want to see what OBD thinks since other forum seems to think Aizen would rape.


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## Kurou (Jun 16, 2010)




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## Crimson King (Jun 16, 2010)

Mongrel gets Gae Bolg to the face.


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## Akatora (Jun 16, 2010)

seriously we need a break from Aizen battles till more is known


From what I've heard about Gilgamesh(only watched the anime) He should win if the Hougyoku boost isn't to insane


time will tell


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## zabuzaXxrevenge (Jun 16, 2010)

aizen would probably rape gilgamesh for the simple fact aizen can turn himself completely invisible to gilgamesh and destroy him that way. Considering that aizen can control all the senses, i dont think that gilgamesh would stand a chance against aizen. but you shouldnt really make this a match since we dont know exactly what aizen is capable of in his current state, i mean he destroted something that no other shinigami can destroy or fight. that says alot, when you consider that head captain yamamoto is included in the shinigami that cant fight or destroy the janitor.


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## Rene (Jun 16, 2010)

Gilgamesh is anti everything that doesn't insta speedblitz him or isn't more broken and versatile than him.

Ea, Gae Bolg, Herpe, enkidu and most likely more are all enough to handily take care of Aizen.



> aizen would probably rape gilgamesh for the simple fact aizen can turn himself completely invisible to gilgamesh and destroy him that way. Considering that aizen can control all the senses, i dont think that gilgamesh would stand a chance against aizen. but you shouldnt really make this a match since we dont know exactly what aizen is capable of in his current state, i mean he destroted something that no other shinigami can destroy or fight. that says alot, when you consider that head captain yamamoto is included in the shinigami that cant fight or destroy the janitor.



Gae Bolg lols at Aizen's Shikai.


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## Xelloss (Jun 16, 2010)

Rule on the OBD is that shinigami are corporeal unless that change we stick to that, also gilgamesh have a item that let him know all enemies weakness, strong points and abilities so without PIS he is not gonna fall for aizen shikai.


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## zabuzaXxrevenge (Jun 16, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Rule on the OBD is that shinigami are corporeal unless that change we stick to that, also gilgamesh have a item that let him know all enemies weakness, strong points and abilities so without PIS he is not gonna fall for aizen shikai.



but to our knowledge aizen has no weaknesses, theres a whole thread of people on here who are still trying to figure that one out, we dont know aizens weakness yet, so who is to say he has a weaknesS. Not to even mention that we dont know what aizens bankai does, so theres a good chance that he would activate i to completeley pown gilgamesh.


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## Axl Low (Jun 16, 2010)

zabuzaXxrevenge said:


> aizen would probably rape gilgamesh for the simple fact aizen can turn himself completely invisible to gilgamesh and destroy him that way. Considering that aizen can control all the senses, i dont think that gilgamesh would stand a chance against aizen. but you shouldnt really make this a match since we dont know exactly what aizen is capable of in his current state, i mean he destroted something that no other shinigami can destroy or fight. that says alot, when you consider that head captain yamamoto is included in the shinigami that cant fight or destroy the janitor.



What the fuck is this shi--

*looks at sig*

Oh.
Sharingan can't see through shit. Hell Sharingan also has this blinding problem.
I suggest you take those contacts out of your eyes and reread the OP.


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## Crimson King (Jun 16, 2010)

zabuzaXxrevenge said:


> but to our knowledge aizen has no weaknesses, theres a whole thread of people on here who are still trying to figure that one out, we dont know aizens weakness yet, so who is to say he has a weaknesS. Not to even mention that we dont know what aizens bankai does, so theres a good chance that he would activate i to completeley pown gilgamesh.



Gae Bolg>>>>Your Bullshit.


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## Rene (Jun 16, 2010)

zabuzaXxrevenge said:


> but to our knowledge aizen has no weaknesses, theres a whole thread of people on here who are still trying to figure that one out, we dont know aizens weakness yet, so who is to say he has a weaknesS. Not to even mention that we dont know what aizens bankai does, so theres a good chance that he would activate i to completeley pown gilgamesh.


He has shown exceptional regen. Nothing more, nothing less.

Gilgamesh has two known weapons that both disable regen. Also Ea is a moving distortion of Space and Time that has destroyed small dimensions when it was at low output. It's leagues above some energy blast like Gestuga Tenshou.

Also one of those two items that negate regen is one that reverses causality. Controlling all six senses is a nice skill, but causality reversal is a few steps above that.

Lets not get to the fact that Aizen's city block level attacks aren't enough to destroy Gilgamesh's armour anyways.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 16, 2010)

Aizen would win this based on feats:

Durability:He took this in base:
well, just look at the scan
well, just look at the scan

And then this building busting attack from Vizard Ichigo who was building level even against Grimmjow:
well, just look at the scan
well, just look at the scan

And here he tanks some more attacks transformed:
well, just look at the scan
well, just look at the scan
well, just look at the scan
well, just look at the scan

Strength/Attack: He takes out Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi at once
well, just look at the scan
well, just look at the scan

Aizen in base already overpowered Sajin's bankai which could overpower a giant like Pow, so between his immense physical strength and durability he'd tear through Gate of Babylon and one EA would not be enough based on feats for someone whose in the high multi-cityblock+ level. Gilgamesh also does'nt know anything about Aizen nor does he have Aizen's weakness, Enkidu won't work here so if Aizen gets close Gil has nothing to save him from Aizen. I'm not even using powerscaling for Aizen. 

Gilgamesh has no NP that can cut a building, his EA would not do it on the first go and would need charge time like against Saber in Fate, Gae Bolg is one of his 1,000NPs and the odds of him using it on Aizen over EA or swordspam are lower. He did'nt even use it on Berserker till he took some 30+ lives worth of NPS and Enkidu.



> Ea



Has no feat that is going to down Aizen in one move.



> Gae Bolg



Because like Lancer it's his only weapon and thus he's most likely to use it right? Because having more prana output than Gae Bolg would'nt work?



> Herpe



Which would'nt stop Aizen either. Snake Hunting sickle won't off him.



> enkidu



Enkidu only works on beings with divinity, the higher the divinity the harder it is to break out. For the last time, Enkidu will not work on anything anti-divine but for some reason everyone keeps saying this like it'll work on Father or Aizen or Claymores. It's just a steel chain to anyone else. Please stop repeating this.




> and most likely more are all enough to handily take care of Aizen



Lu Bu' spear is useless
Deinsleif is useless here
Merodach is useless, Aizen lacks dragon blood and his durability
His plane is only supersonic and he needs to be able to take it out
Durandal is a holy sword but it's not even building level
Calabolg is useless
Vajra won't work, it's not building level even
His armor would be smashed
His shield is useless on blunt force attacks
Potion of youth is useless
Money is useless
Invisible sword has no building level feat
Ice sword won't work

Please don't mention his card game ability, it only works on Decks. That whole "Gilgamesh can get info on his enemies" is from a card, Fuyuki itself states this.



> A cursed spear that will always go through the heart of the opponent when struck. Reverses causality in which the spear is launched after the truth that the heart had already been hit had been constructed. Since the spear had already hit the target, no matter what he might do, he can't avoid it. Surviving through Gae Bolg will require an auto-resurrect Noble Phantasm or high LCK *or a defensive barrier that surpasses the Prana of Gae Bolg*. Damage taken by Gae Bolg will not be able to be recovered from as long as Gae Bolg continues to exist (not exactly true, but well, close enough: Avalon was able to allow recovery: this also applies to normal mode Gae Bolg). Prana consumption is relatively low compared to its destiny interference ability and it can be used 7 times without needing to be refilled. Gae Bolg's true ability is as a thrown weapon, however, in which the full power of the curse of Gae Bolg is unleashed. Emphasis in this case is on destructive power rather than targeting accuracy. Damage and form are approaching that of Lugh's Brionac, but the power of "striking the enemy no matter how many times he may dodge" comes from Odin's Gungnir






> Sha Nagba Imuru - The all-knowing, all-powerful star
> Ko-gil's Noble Phantasm. *In the hollow ataraxia card game* though. Does it really exist? Does older Gilgamesh even have it?
> Actually the name of Gilgamesh's legend (translated as: He Who Knows Everything).
> 
> A lot of people seem to be under the impression that Gilgamesh is a dope, but he's very knowledgeable and cunning, even as an adult; able to see through exactly what Shirou was trying to do prior to activating UBW (as to the number of traced weapons he was preparing; has fair enough knowledge of thaumaturgy), etc. Hence, this (card game) Noble Phantasm for taking a look at some of the cards in the opponent's hand and the stack....which is pretty useless actually, but hey



The other stuff is just examples of Gil being smart from the game.



> Erukidu - Chain of Heaven
> The Noble Phantasm that Gilgamesh trusted the most, even more so than Ea. One of the few anti-god weapons that has the power to "reign over the gods". *The higher the divinity, the stronger it is. Against those with no divinity, it's about as much trouble as a tough chain*. I also have no idea how this is spelled. This could actually really be a typo of Enkidu



You want to argue Aizen can't break free of a tough chain? Why would Gil use Enkidu if he's not sure his target has divinity or not? Enkidu saved Gil from Berserker's attack, it won't work here once Aizen gets closer.



> strong points and abilities so without PIS he is not gonna fall for aizen shikai



He does'nt know about Aizen's shikai and if you're offing CIS/PIS then Aizen is more likely to make Gil see his shikai and make him think he's won then troll him. PIS= Plot Induced Stupidity or Plot armor none of which have any bearing on Aizen's shikai working on someone.

Or Aizen uses binding kidou on Gil to immobilise his hands.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 16, 2010)

ISn't Gilgamesh Planet Level?


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## Rene (Jun 16, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Aizen in base already overpowered Sajin's bankai which could overpower a giant like Pow, so between his immense physical strength and durability he'd tear through Gate of Babylon and one EA would not be enough based on feats for someone whose in the high multi-cityblock+ level. Gilgamesh also does'nt know anything about Aizen nor does he have Aizen's weakness, Enkidu won't work here so if Aizen gets close Gil has nothing to save him from Aizen. I'm not even using powerscaling for Aizen.
> 
> Gilgamesh has no NP that can cut a building, his EA would not do it on the first go and would need charge time like against Saber in Fate, Gae Bolg is one of his 1,000NPs and the odds of him using it on Aizen over EA or swordspam are lower. He did'nt even use it on Berserker till he took some 30+ lives worth of NPS and Enkidu.


I know FSN has been getting a reevaluation here, but this is pretty over the top.

First of all: Noble phantasms don't require charge times, everytime he's used an Ea so far he has used the minimum output and with that he split open the ground in Iskandar's reality marble and destabalised it to the point Iskandar was forced to shut it down. Stating that minimum output ea can't even destroy a building is retarded to say the least when Berserker was doing so with casual swings. Ea also tore through Saber's defensive armor like it was nothing whereas Saber took charges from Bellorophon (not the blast attack, just pegasus charges) that could level a skyscraper. If Saber hadn't offset Ea with her Excalibur and hadn't had her armor on Ea would have most likely killed her.

Gilgamesh took the same reflected blast from Ea by Avalon full on and he was still standing. Not in the best of shape but his armor resisted it though I believe it wasn't fully undamaged. I'd say this is the same level of Ea that hit Saber since it was reflected and should have lost some power. 

Even among those noble phantasms multiple of them have nasty effects, even for Aizen. Such as a sickle that bypasses defensive armour or weapons and heads straight for the opponent, a sword that freezes the space around it when it's swung and so on. Saber didn't block the phantasms on purpose. Not because she couldn't. Saying Aizen wouldn't get hit whereas Berserker of all servants was kept back by mere Gates of Babylon span would be stupid.

Since you like to bring up Gil's CIS, why don't we bring up Condom Aizen's? Who fell for every attack of 3 much inferior captains (according to you). Or was too arrogant to dodge Urahara's kido spam. If he does that against Gil's Gates of Babylon he'll be screwed.


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## Xelloss (Jun 16, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Aizen would win this based on feats:
> 
> Durability:He took this in base:
> Link removed
> ...



He show also Medorash which is stronger than caliburn and excalibur and he did use it, in heaven fell he destroyed buildings rather easy with a low charge ea. And he does have his plane with nukes.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 16, 2010)

Merodach is not stronger than Excalibur, please post the scene where it says so. It's stronger than Caliburn which has'nt even busted a building. His plane which was shot down by something mach 1, that plane he can't just waste time taking out before Aizen tears through his offense and gets close? Why do you think Shirou gave Gil trouble? Because he could get close to Gil by countering his swordspam with his own then cut off his hand before he used EA. 

Destroying a building is a joke in Bleach now(Grimmjow's not so strongest attacks were 5 building busting darts) and this Aizen exceeds his base form. 

Base Aizen's casual kidou spell. 
Link removed

Aizen has the durability and strength feats not counting powerscaling to allow him to easily tear through GOB and off Gil before he does anything dangerous like think of Gae Bolg. 

EDIT Even if Merodach is stronger than Excalibur it's ranked anti-unit not anti-fortress so no Excalibeam like attack.


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## Rene (Jun 16, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Merodach is not stronger than Excalibur, please post the scene where it says so. It's stronger than Caliburn which has'nt even busted a building. His plane which was shot down by something mach 1, that plane he can't just waste time taking out before Aizen tears through his offense and gets close? Why do you think Shirou gave Gil trouble? Because he could get close to Gil by countering his swordspam with his own then cut off his hand before he used EA. Saber, Lancer, Berserker etc can't do this. Aizen has the durability and strength feats not counting powerscaling to allow him to easily tear through GOB and off Gil before he does anything dangerous like think of Gae Bolg.
> 
> EDIT Even if Merodach is stronger than Excalibur it's ranked anti-unit not anti-fortress so no Excalibeam like attack.


The fact that you need to bring up the fight with Shirou is enough proof that Gilgamesh would win.

Please adress my previous post.


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## Cypher0120 (Jun 16, 2010)

So...the scene where Caliburn killed Berserker 6 times in a single blow...and then the scene where allowing Saber to use Excalibur and failed to kill off the rest of Berserker mean nothing?

Ea's going to destroy Aizen if it hits considering what it does to Alexander and those things from HA. Being downgraded to a dimensional-destroying attack doesn't mean much.

Assuming both are out to kill, then Gilgamesh would already be in his armor, holding Ea, Enkidu around him ready to use, and every single Noble Phantasm firing to their maximum ability.

The main problem would be the illusion. If Gilgamesh starts swordspamming and he sees his own swords shooting at himself then....>_>


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## Xelloss (Jun 16, 2010)

While the item that tell all his oponents weakness if from the card game it has enough references in the novel and anime, gilgamesh always knew which spell casters where gonna do, how shirou used proyection, etc, etc this is because that item.


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## Riddler (Jun 16, 2010)

Have you ever met the Vilmana?

Link removed

Gold and Emerald aircraft, traveling at the speed of thought, from which Gilgamesh can use Gate of Babylon even point-blank


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 16, 2010)

I addressed all the posts I hope. 



> The fact that you need to bring up the fight with Shirou is enough proof that Gilgamesh would win



What proof? Oh you mean how Gil lost well that's true but the part where Shirou could get close to Gil due to being able to handle Swordspam is true, his whole style against servants especially Berserker is to beat them before they get close while using his knowledge on their past to pull put the convenient weakness of theirs he has, Shirou explains this in UBW as to why "No servant can match that one". 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8OHSmFpgC8[/YOUTUBE]

Shirou makes it clear the outcome is either Gil kills Berserker before he reaches him or Berserker reaches him and kills him. Gil had Enkidu against someone with A rank Divinity and he knew Berserker's identity. Aizen is not descened from any God to our knowledge and Gil knows nothing about Aizen because he's not a heroic spirit with records.

One last time give me feats of:

His NPS building busting or else they won't do anything to Aizen
Gae Bolg is useless when Aizen has the possible energy to stop impaling death
Enkidu is useless here, he's not a divine being with divine blood
Deinsleif's curse won't work here 
Harpe did'nt stop Saber from fighting either
His mirror is useless against blunt force
Merodach is anti-unit/dragon and not building busting. Aizen is not a Dragon
Vajra should'nt do anything unless it has some high destructive feat
Calabolg is just a sword with a drill here
His armor would shatter from Aizen's attack
Potion of youth is useless in a fight
His plane he'll have to take out mid battle and Aizen can fly himself
Ice sword he'd shrug off with his strength, durability and hierro
EA won't down Aizen in one hit
Invisible sword has no feat of being even building buster
We don't know what else he has

What points did I miss? The part where you don't know enough to say Enkidu would work? the part where you listed some NPS which are not building+ and assuming they work on someone like Aizen would'nt be a No limits Fallacy?



> So...the scene where Caliburn killed Berserker 6 times in a single blow...and then the scene where allowing Saber to use Excalibur and failed to kill off the rest of Berserker mean nothing?



Yes because Caliburn is still not a building buster based on feats and that was DEM, considering even Excalibur only took one life or so in a bad end. Why would someone with Aizen's durability be bothered by that?



> Assuming both are out to kill, then Gilgamesh would already be in his armor, holding Ea, Enkidu around him ready to use, and every single Noble Phantasm firing to their maximum ability



Gilgamesh does'nt just keep Enkidu ready and please for the love of god, you pay attention to my post. Enkidu * will not work on something anti-divine*. Aizen has no blood from a god and Gil knows nothing about Aizen nor does Aizen happen to be a hero in myth who has some weakness that Gil will conveniently have.  Out to kill? Gil did that on Iskander, he survived it by jumping or so. And destroying a dimension of unknown size is not going to help because it's unquantifiable. 

Out to kill with no PIS/CIS means Aizen would tear through Gilgamesh's Swordspam, characters with far lesser strength feats have parried GOB. Someone whose striking power is above SS bankai Ichigo or above an opponent Chad beat who had a 107 or so punches with strength far above building and such high durability and some regen would make his way through. Enkidu won't save Gil here.



> While the item that tell all his oponents weakness if from the card game it has enough references in the novel and anime, gilgamesh always knew which spell casters where gonna do, how shirou used proyection, etc, etc this is because that item



No those references were just showing that Gil is not an idiot like most think.



> *Sha Nagba Imuru - The all-knowing, all-powerful star
> Ko-gil's Noble Phantasm. In the hollow ataraxia card game though*. *Does it really exist? Does older Gilgamesh even have it?*
> Actually the name of Gilgamesh's legend (translated as: He Who Knows Everything)



This says it's card game only. The rest is wondering if such a thing exists as an NP for Gil in the game. If Fuyuki is unsure then don't bring this up in a versus topic.



> A lot of people seem to be under the impression that Gilgamesh is a dope, but he's very knowledgeable and cunning, even as an adult; able to see through exactly what Shirou was trying to do prior to activating UBW (as to the number of traced weapons he was preparing; has fair enough knowledge of thaumaturgy), etc



This just shows that Gil is knowledgeable on magic in Nasuverse.



> *Hence, this (card game) Noble Phantasm for taking a look at some of the cards in the opponent's hand and the stack....which is pretty useless actually*, but hey



Gilgamesh threads are horrible with people arguing he can beat Starkiller, harm WW with EA, beat Rey Fan and now this. He does'nt have the feats, please stop blowing his H4X out of proportion. He's powerful and while I heavily support Nasuverse and it's characters saying he can down Aizen before he gets close to Gil is laughable. I posted feats because I am aware that none exist in Fate/Stay night, outside that I do not know much.

Current Aizen makes his base form look small, he just pwned someone stronger than him in base(Isshin) along with two other characters.





> The Vimana (ヴィマーナ, Vimana?) is the flying machine Noble Phantasm used by Servant Archer, Gilgamesh in the Fourth Holy Grail War. A gold and emerald aircraft, fueled by mercury and solar-powered by rutiliated quartz crystals, that travels at the speed of thought. The pilot throne can be withdrawn. A control column is placed in front of the throne, but as it interferes with the operation of Gate of Babylon, it is not used.
> 
> *Shot down by Berserker's F15-J* when Archer attempted to close in and use Gate of Babylon point-blank; Berserker activated the flare dispenser, and his prana transformed the flares into homing incendiary bombs, engulfing the Vimana in fire and causing Archer to lose control



Not thought speed and thought speed is uquantifiable, unless it's stated in the work of fiction e.g in Marvel thought speed>lightspeed. Otherwise it's unquantifiable. We had a thread in the meta, made by Red with the same entry in the meta and it was concluded that thought speed was unquantifiable, it's still contradicted by the fact it was shot down.

Now please explain how Gil is going to pull out and get into a plane while swordspamming to keep Aizen away or better yet how being occupied getting into the plane is good when GOB's swordspam will fail on Aizen?


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## Xelloss (Jun 16, 2010)

and unless F-15 have change over the years those are neyond mach 1, now EA overpower in low charge a excaliblast which vaporise a river... yeah weak, I have never see the claims that gilgamesh would beat WW thats idiotic to say at least, you r trying to bring the wank of movie deck here, the all know star if part of gilgamesh arsenal (and fuyuki have not been update in what 4 years already).

You claim people wank nasuverse but sometimes people here try to downgrade it a lot.

And rider dimension still cover as long as human eye can see, consider earth formation of a flat plain is 2.9 miles for a 5.5ft person, gilgamesh is taller for lets say he destroy a dimension of at least 8 miles diameter.


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## Cypher0120 (Jun 16, 2010)

It's about to get ugly again in here....

I'll head out. Get Red or CK in here, they're more knowledgeable about this.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 16, 2010)

An F15J is not thought speed like he's saying regardless. The only one who downplayed Nasuverse was Cubey, he's banned and I don't downplay it. 



> Ionian Hetairoi - Army of the King
> Rank EX anti-army NP. The field of battle that Iskandar's forces raced through in the past. The landscape burned into the hearts of the heroes that Iskandar fought and emerged victorious with.
> Almost like a Realiy Marble, but the difference of this is that it isn't Iskandar's personal internal world, it's the combined one of Iskandar and all of his companions. Once activated, Iskandar's past comrades (including Bucephalus) materialize one after another; legendary heroes offered to the world as Heroic Spirits after death, but still show their eternal loyalty and answer Iskandar's call.
> 
> Essentially, continuous summoning of independent Servants. Numbers aren't given, but it should easily surpass 100 Hassans



Destroying this is not helping here. 

No it's not part of his arsenal, it's just in a trading card game. Gil says "What kind of hero would I be if I did'nt see through a Magus's trick?". There is no item mentioned here and Shirou does'nt see it either. Fuyuki has'nt been updated but what has changed since last time about the Card game? Has something been mentioned about Gil actually having such a ability in the game? Source. If he does I won't argue.

MVC wank? This was on this forum where people argued Gilgamesh could possibly beat Starkiller the dude who TKs Star Destroyers and has precog or is on par with characters who deflect 20,000 supersonic-hypersonic attacks

And here's more wank 
Link removed

Yeah Gil does'nt stand a chance against him either, the win was added to Rey regardless.


No more. Go by feats please, I hate downplaying of Nasuverse a lot but I also hate overplaying. Gil does'nt touch building buster outside EA which should be multi-cityblock+ but not going to kill Aizen in one hit and it blows away his own swords as Shirou notes in UBW. Aizen would make it to Gil and Gil can't Enkidu him. Aizen also has long range, barriers and binding spells with the ability to make illusions. Gae Bolg and EA are the only things here to threaten Aizen, the plane is unorthodox to use mid combat so unless he starts out in the plane he can't nuke Aizen.


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## Riddler (Jun 16, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> An F15J is not thought speed like he's saying regardless.



Didn't you just say thought speed is unquantifiable?  

And this is a Noble Phantasm F-15. So it probably resembles a standard jet as Fragarach resembles a standard sword. 

Besides, the way Vimana was shot down, by your own words:

"_Shot down by Berserker's F15-J when Archer attempted to close in and use Gate of Babylon point-blank; Berserker activated the flare dispenser, and his prana transformed the flares into homing incendiary bombs, engulfing the Vimana in fire and causing Archer to lose control_"

Seems to indicate Gilgamesh only lost it due to his usual arrogance/lack of care, with some magic involved


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## Xelloss (Jun 16, 2010)

*Harpe did'nt stop Saber from fighting either*

Harpe damage is not the big deal with the weapon, is the fact it stop immortality and regeneration

*His mirror is useless against blunt force*

But would negate all his kidou and bakudo

*Merodach is anti-unit/dragon and not building busting. Aizen is not a Dragon*

It deals extra damage to dragon is not just strictly vs dragons

*Vajra should'nt do anything unless it has some high destructive feat*

It just a "Im out of mana np" but a B grade NP still go beyond medea ray spam that is a multi block destroyer

*Calabolg is just a sword with a drill here*

Thats Caldabog II modified by archer

*His armor would shatter from Aizen's attack*

Please a scan that is better than a excaliblast because I dont recall any

*His plane he'll have to take out mid battle and Aizen can fly himself*

The plane can be controlled with the mind and serve as a distraction

*EA won't down Aizen in one hit*

A low charge ea no, the ones heu used on Hallow axtraxia hell yeah

............................

The all knowing star while never specify have yet to contradic every of his "I know everything" on the novel, manga and anime.


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## skiboydoggy (Jun 16, 2010)

I refuse to get into the argument, but this has to be said.

Mongrel gets Gate of Babylowned.


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## Crimson King (Jun 16, 2010)

TF, you're forgetting one thing:attacks in mexico are stronger than attacks in the other worlds due to the high concentration of spirit particles.

We see what the top 3's powers were in the shinigami world. Their strongest attacks were at best multi-bulilding.

Aizen himself has shown shown that he only uses kidou and his sword. I don't remember any kidou being multi-building level.

Gilgamesh's armor was already covered by others though I would like to add a bit more. His armor was already stressed to the breaking point and it could still tank his own Ea.

A bloodlusted Gilgamesh would use Gae Bolg, as it is a sure-hit weapon and kills regen at the same time.


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## Riverlia (Jun 17, 2010)

I can accept God Hand not being able to block mountain busting attacks below rank A, because there's no feats
But Gil being unable to burst building is so beyond ridiculous.
Archer's arrows, when firing in succession of 3-6 arrows per volley, was noted by Shirou to be able to mow down building, and that's just normal arrows made from wood and metal.


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## SHM (Jun 17, 2010)

hadomaru said:


> ISn't Gilgamesh Planet Level?



IIRC there are some special objects in F/SN that represent worlds/dimensions, and Gilgamesh have a special technique that can destroy those objects.
So yes, he can be considered a world/dimension threat... In his own verse.
But that doesn't stop his fanboys of claiming he can destroy any world/planet in fiction.



Riverlia said:


> But Gil being unable to burst building is so beyond ridiculous. Archer's arrows, when firing in succession of 3-6 arrows per volley, *was noted by Shirou to be able to mow down building*, and that's just normal arrows made from wood and metal.



Hyperbole.


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## Riverlia (Jun 17, 2010)

Consider they were shot at bullet velocity and have the mass of arrows, with machine gun fire rate, yes, those arrows shot in succession should be able to mow down building (Shirou said 'they', while the screen show 2-3 volleys, not 1 shot) depends on the type of building in question, I doubt it's purely hyperbole.



> IIRC there are some special objects in F/SN that represent worlds/dimensions


Special objects that represent worlds/dimension? care to enlighten me ?
I don't remember any, sound like something someone deduced from skimping through the wiki 


> So yes, he can be considered a world/dimension threat... In his own verse.
> But that doesn't stop his fanboys of claiming he can destroy any world/planet in fiction.


So the author and the material books writer is a fan boy now
He lack feats, but him being able to destroy the world at full power was hinted at heavily. 
It's a matter of stand points: 'feats only' or 'words of god and data sheet/material book work as long as they aren't contradicted in-story'

And if he had feat of destroying world in his own verse, he'd have been accepted as a world destroyer regardless of stand points.
 '...in his universe' woot?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 17, 2010)

> TF, you're forgetting one thing:attacks in mexico are stronger than attacks in the other worlds due to the high concentration of spirit particles.
> 
> We see what the top 3's powers were in the shinigami world. Their strongest attacks were at best multi-bulilding



Except Espada rankings don't scale linearly they all have different speed, strength, durability and abilities. Ulquiorra was a destructive type, Harribel used water, Barragan was H4X not destruction and his multi-building feat was casual in base with an axe while Starrk used Exploding wolves that could regen. We see Grimmjow kicking Ichigo through multiple buildings in HM and we people doing that outside HM. The Espada were still scared to attack Aizen in HM.



> Aizen himself has shown shown that he only uses kidou and his sword. I don't remember any kidou being multi-building level



He owns captain levels in base while they're in bankai casually with his sword(Including the giant powerhouse bankai of Sajin). He has defensive kidou, binding kidou and that basic kidou he used on Isshin was multi-building. He also has been laughing off attacks above building level.



> I can accept God Hand not being able to block mountain busting attacks below rank A, because there's no feats
> But Gil being unable to burst building is so beyond ridiculous.
> *Archer's arrows, when firing in succession of 3-6 arrows per volley, was noted by Shirou to be able to mow down building, and that's just normal arrows made from wood and metal*



Archer's arrows are'nt normal arrows and while I can accept his BPs being building busters his regular arrows are not. 



> bolded the most important parts. Your whole argument was that Ea couldn't destroy a building. I believe I'll accept your concession on that point



No in this very thread I just said EA is multi-cityblock, I said his other NPS like the ones he throws as projectiles are not. Have you posted proof of them being building busting? No? Then conceed what? Your images don't work but I know what you're talking about and yes EA does overpower Excalibur easily which is why I put it at multi-cityblock as well. 



> 1) PIS



Which is'nt my argument at all.



> 2) Gilgamesh didn't go in the fight expecting Shirou to posses a reality marble. That is the only reason he was capable to match Gil's firepower



No all you've stated is the obvious which even the game states. Gil could have stopped UBW from happening. This does'nt change the fact that UBW still cancelled out the swordspam. UBW is ranked E-A++ as well in anti-army. But okay even if we go with your argument that GOB swordspam>UBW swordspam, you still don't change the fact that when someone can make it past GOB swordspam Gil is screwed. 



> 3) Gilgamesh didn't expect Tohsaka to be providing shirou magic power



Which has no relevance here, the point was Shirou in UBW getting close to Gil by cancelling out his swordspam.



> 4) Gilgamesh, had he at any point regained his composure instead of raging because SHIROU was beating him, would have pulled out his armour and the fight would be done with



Why are you wasting my time? I'm not arguing Gil lost to CIS against Shirou but at the end of day getting past his swordspam and getting close to him is bad for Gilgamesh. Are you going to argue that?



> 5) Shirou still got the boosts of the weapons he was using



Good and all but this is'nt why Gil lost to Shirou, I already said it was CIS. I was just giving you the principle for why UBW is the natural enemy of GOB, which is shown more obviously by the fact Gil tries to keep Berserker away from him with GOB and only makes it out due to knowing about Berserker's identity and thus Enkidu being ready. Enkidu won't work on Aizen.

My god you gave me arguments I already knew about Shirou vs Gil while dodging the main point.



> Gilgamesh's armor was already covered by others though I would like to add a bit more. His armor was already stressed to the breaking point and it could still tank his own Ea




[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfy1VZYOwVY[/YOUTUBE]

4 min 58 secs "That light which is not as strong as Excalibur"

5 min 21 secs "The hesitation is only for an instant, the Golden Knight rereats"

Yeah he gets damaged by something weaker than Excalibur. Now while his armor is strong it was it at it's limit against Caliburn, it tanked something weaker than Excalibur but Gil was'nt exactly fine, he's armor is burning(Shown in the visual and through the noise) and he was bleeding. 



> A bloodlusted Gilgamesh would use Gae Bolg, as it is a sure-hit weapon and kills regen at the same time





> Gae Bolg - The Spear of Impaling Barbed Death/The Spear of Striking Death Flight
> 
> The spear that had only taken the lives of the ones Cu Chulainn loved.
> 
> A cursed spear that will always go through the heart of the opponent when struck. Reverses causality in which the spear is launched after the truth that the heart had already been hit had been constructed. Since the spear had already hit the target, no matter what he might do, he can't avoid it. Surviving through Gae Bolg will require an auto-resurrect Noble Phantasm or high LCK or *a defensive barrier that surpasses the Prana of Gae Bolg*. Damage taken by Gae Bolg will not be able to be recovered from as long as Gae Bolg continues to exist (not exactly true, but well, close enough: Avalon was able to allow recovery: this also applies to normal mode Gae Bolg)



LCK is a stat which is basically not equalisable here but the last part could be. Yes it's possible Aizen could counter it by surpassing it's prana.



> Gil would not underestimate Aizen, since even he would feel how strong Aizen would be. From a servant's point of view though a magus (low end superhuman) is still tiers below them. He had no reason to be afraid of shirou. When Shirou caught him off guard with the reality marble and continued pressing onwards Gil was not thinking as he normally would when facing a serious opponent, he was freaking out



Except I never argued about CIS, I was pointing out how:
-Gil has no idea what Aizen is capable off aside from being strong
-Enkidu would not work
-You have'nt given proof for GOB's individual swords building busting
-His plane won't work mid battle against someone charging towards him
-Aizen could tank atleast one EA
-Aizen has the strength to swat away GOB
-Aizen could immobilise Gil unless Gil is aware of Aizen's kidou
-Aizen has kidou barriers
-Aizen's shikai could be used to pull one over Gil without him knowing it

You're not answering my posts properly. You mentioning how Gil lost due to CIS which was obvious even from Shirou's POV does'nt change the fact that Gil is an archer class who likes to keep enemies away then use an NP combo based on his knowledge of them nor does it change the fact Aizen would close the distance with his durability, strength and barriers. It also does'nt change the fact that Aizen could just take his head off once he's near or fool his senses to get close as well.


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## Xelloss (Jun 17, 2010)

And you are not addressing my points Archer/Shirou was stated to be the natural counter for GB any other servant even Heracles which is one of the top servants cant really deal with it.


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## Riverlia (Jun 17, 2010)

> Archer's arrows are'nt normal arrows and while I can accept his BPs being building busters his regular arrows are not.


'mowing down building', and that was around a dozen being shot at once
That mass shot at bullet velocity cant mow down building?
And his BP are beyond building buster.

Thousands of sword shot at bullet velocity is also capable of building burst as an attack

The whole 'only building buster can harm him' is a bit iffy anyway
There are Anti-Personal NP and Conceptual weapon that was considered more powerful than or on par with building/city busting ones. Fragarach only left a small hole on its victim after reaching A-rank damage
Collateral damage shouldn't be the only thing that matter



> No all you've stated is the obvious which even the game states. Gil could have stopped UBW from happening. This does'nt change the fact that UBW still cancelled out the swordspam. UBW is ranked E-A++ as well in anti-army. But okay even if we go with your argument that GOB swordspam>UBW swordspam, you still don't change the fact that when someone can make it past GOB swordspam Gil is screwed.


You are talking about it like wading through GOB rains is easy
UBW is a direct counter of GOB, that's the only reason Shirou could go through it.



> LCK is a stat which is basically not equalisable here but the last part could be. Yes it's possible Aizen could counter it by surpassing it's prana.


defensive barrier, and it's not just having more prana, it's surpassing prana from Gae Bolg
Saber's armor couldn't surpass it's prana
Caster with tons of prana and her barrier cant surpass it
Prove that Aizen can



> Out to kill with no PIS/CIS means Aizen would tear through Gilgamesh's Swordspam, characters with far lesser strength feats have parried GOB.


It's not a matter of strength or speed

Shirou use the very same sword each time Gil attack with one sword, which was the sole reason he could get through, as the same effect apparently cancelled each other
Berserker had God Hand, which negate all effect below rank B, and apparently an A-rank attack that was deflected is as good as a B-rank (he was virtually unharmed by an A-rank BP, be cause he deflected it before impact)

Saber, who could easily parried Gil's swords if they were just powerful blades, couldn't do it because of the unknown effects.


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## Juri (Jun 17, 2010)

Just want to drop by and say something about the negation of regen. 

Aizen's regen is caused by a reality warping/probability altering item. Unless Gil destroys the Hougyouku, I really really doubt he can stop Aizen's regen since it isn't really Aizen's to begin with.


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 17, 2010)

Aizen can now blast stuff out of existance, he is now apparently beyond "space,time and *reason*"


Though I doubt the bolded part existed in Bleach


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## Rene (Jun 17, 2010)

Aizen is not going to tank an Ea blast, if it hits he would die. He has never shown to be able to tank something of Ea's magnitude and due to its attributes it could possibly destroy the Hougyoku along with taking down Aizen.

I have no concrete proof for Gil's swords being building busters, but he managed to pull up 20 noble phantasms capable of bypassing Berserker's God Hand like nothing, thus making them A rank. Berserker's God Hand won't take damage from anything that doesn't have the neccesary power behind it. 

Casual swings from Berserker and Saber have the power behind them to level buildings, B ranked and higher noble phantasms should be way above this. A lot of the attacks don't have large AOE effects, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still powerful enough to pierce opponents that can take those kinds of Aoe attacks.

The Prana barrier against Gae Bolg only works against the thrown version, not against the one with the casuality reversal attribute.

Again I'll also raise the point of the effects of Gil's weapon, such as the sword that froze the space around it when swung and managed to even encase a part of Saber in ice and force a retreat or the sickle that bypassed Saber's armour as if it wasn't even there. 

Saying Noble Phantasms that can Pierce Berserker's God hand don't have the power to building bust behind them is just stupid.


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## Alita (Jun 17, 2010)

Aizen loses for reasons already explained.


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## Riddler (Jun 17, 2010)

Alita54 said:


> Aizen loses for reasons already explained.



Since when were you under the impression that Aizen-Sama bows to something as petty as "reasons"?


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## Crimson King (Jun 17, 2010)

I'm wondering where that prana part of the Gae Bolg thing came from. It contradicts the part where it stats that guarding against it is impossible due to the spear already hitting.

I also noticed that it was conveniently edited during Gilgamesh's last match.

I remember no mention that a shield with enough prana could block that version of Gae Bolg in the VN.

Can someone show me the scene that mentions it to refresh my memory? I really can't remember anything about a shield with enough prana would be able to stop it. I can understand one with a higher rank than it, but not just more prana.

Because I remember that in F/HA Bazett used Fragarach to cancel Gae Bolg, but it still killed her. If being canceled would not affect it, I'm doubting a shield with more prana can stop it.



> If Fragarach is a curse that switches the order of attack, Gae Bolg is a cursed spear that reverses causality. Even if Fragarach rewrites the fact that Gae Bolg was hurled first, it'll just wind back. The moment Gae Bolg's true name was released, Gae Bolg already held the result of hitting the heart. Even if time is returned to the point before activation and kills the user, it's meaningless. The spear having the result of piercing a heart will fulfill its role even if its master's died before he could initiate his attack.
> 
> Impaling Barbed Death will even kill Arc provided her luck roll fails. Also, Impaling Barbed Death (and probably Death Flight) will turn into a thousand thorns upon impact.


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## Xelloss (Jun 17, 2010)

Thats vs Gae Bolg in flying explosive mode not vs Impaling barbing death.


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## Riverlia (Jun 17, 2010)

> I remember no mention that a shield with enough prana could block that version of Gae Bolg in the VN.


It's not a shield with enough prana
It's a defense barrier that can surpass Gaebolg's prana
The first underlined part mean just having truckload of prana do jack, the second mean, well, surpassing the spear itself, I supposed it's another way to phrase 'greater mystery cancel out lesser mystery)
The first that come to mind is God Hand
But apparently the spear in Gilgamesh's hand is of a different rank, as it passed through God Hand, so yeah...


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## Crimson King (Jun 17, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> It's not a shield with enough prana
> It's a defense barrier that can surpass Gaebolg's prana
> The first underlined part mean just having truckload of prana do jack, the second mean, well, surpassing the spear itself, I supposed it's another way to phrase 'greater mystery cancel out lesser mystery)
> The first that come to mind is God Hand
> But apparently the spear in Gilgamesh's hand is of a different rank, as it passed through God Hand, so yeah...



I only remember the thrown version being stopped by barriers (Rho Aius). I really don't remember the normal version being stopped by any barriers at all.


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## Riverlia (Jun 17, 2010)

Well, I was under the impression that 'barrier' mean something that protect the entire body, not one direction, Rho Aias was a shield.
In an interview with Nasu, the interviewer asked how would Lancer fare against Berserker as all his NP were below A rank, Nasu said Lancer can temporarily raise his NP to A rank with runes, but he'll only be able to hurt Berserker a few times. This is like indirectly confirmed that without rune boost, Gae Bolg will not pierce God-hand. So there actually is defense mechanism that can overwhelm Gae Bolg (and I believe Avalon can also overwhelm it).

But just having truckload of prana or a one-direction shield or regeneration are obviously *not* the ways to defend against Gae Bolg


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## Crimson King (Jun 17, 2010)

So, it's just what I was thinking of. Only higher rank and more hax noble phantasms can overrride it.


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## Riverlia (Jun 18, 2010)

> So, it's just what I was thinking of. Only higher rank and more hax noble phantasms can overrride it.


Yeah, I wasn't arguing against it, but elaborating that the phrase does not mean just a shield with enough prana (Rho Aias) or truck load of prana (which seem to be what TF implied)
Sorry for the confusion


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## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jun 18, 2010)

Aizen gets Gate of BablyPWND.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 2, 2012)

Hello two year old thread.


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## willyvereb (Jul 2, 2012)

LoL yeah.
Not to mention that with the new feats and the downgrade in Bleach speeds, Gilgamesh would destroy Aizen with almost casual ease.

A single Fragor blast won't do against someone who could be only taken out via a point blank Excaliblast.
The Fragor encirclement may work but Gil most likely has proo Rho Aias plus a shield which gives him 360 degree protection.

In addition he has Enkidu that would seal Aizen in a space-time barrer that isolates his divine powers (aka nearly everything) from Aizen.
Following that he could tear the now depowered Aizen to pieces with the chains (as they were apparently stronger than Berserker) or GoB him into swiss cheese.

Gae Bolg and Ea won't even be needed.

Anyways, I'm locking this thread to prevent the further necro-ing.


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