# P1 Naruto and P1 Sasuke vs Aang and Zuko



## Ashi (Aug 31, 2013)

This is VOTE naruto and sasuke

Sozin's comet aang and zuko

Knowledge: none

IC, intent to kill


Bonus: naruto and sasuke vs ozai and iroh

Sozins comet is out for both


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## Lord Valgaav (Aug 31, 2013)

No speed equal? Either Naruto or Sasuke solo Aang and Zuko. 

The bonus is trickier. Ozai has flight and with the comet he and Iroh have superior firepower but neither could tank a hit from Naruto or Sauce who both have far greater speed.


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

So are VOTE Naruto and Sauce Mach 14 or what?


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## Ashi (Aug 31, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> So are VOTE Naruto and Sauce Mach 14 or what?



They wer moving pretty fast  so modt likely


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## Lord Valgaav (Aug 31, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> So are VOTE Naruto and Sauce Mach 14 or what?



Yes. 

And actually Naruto and Sauce take that round as well. I just remembered Sasuke's bear feat and that was back in FoD. Ozai and Iroh get punched and kicked.


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

Avatar characters would stomp if speed equal, since it isn't, Nardo and Sauce take it.
Shame.


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## DHxCohaco (Aug 31, 2013)

i'm not sure about genin naruto getting the scaling but kyuubi chakra naruto was blitzing haku who gets the mach 14 scaling and sasuke gets the scaling


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## Neruc (Aug 31, 2013)

Naruto and Sauce win for the reasons stated above.

Brohan did mention that he saw some potentially hypersonic feats in Avatar however 

Depending on how fast those were,the Avatar team might take it.


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

DHxCohaco said:


> i'm not sure about *genin naruto* getting the scaling





DHxCohaco said:


> genin naruto


but mayne.
Naruto is still a genin.




Neruc said:


> Naruto and Sauce win for the reasons stated above.
> 
> Brohan did mention that he saw some potentially hypersonic feats in Avatar however
> 
> Depending on how fast those were,the Avatar team might take it.


...Which ones?
I don't remember anything that fast at all.

Besides we'd have to quantify that right now wouldn't we?


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## Neruc (Aug 31, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> ...Which ones?
> I don't remember anything that fast at all.
> 
> Besides we'd have to quantify that right now wouldn't we?


I don't know.

I only mentioned what he said about them.

Well considering we don't know the feats that would apparently make them hypersonic,not really.


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## DHxCohaco (Aug 31, 2013)

> but mayne.
> Naruto is still a genin.


i meant part 1 nardo  
his current status is ninja jesus BTW


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## Neruc (Aug 31, 2013)

DHxCohaco said:


> i meant part 1 nardo
> his current status is ninja jesus BTW



But Jojo-sama,every ninja in Naruto can walk on water


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## DHxCohaco (Aug 31, 2013)

> But *Jojo*-sama,every ninja in Naruto can walk on water


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

DHxCohaco said:


> i meant part 1 nardo
> his current status is ninja jesus BTW


Genin ninja jesus sure.



Neruc said:


> But Jojo-sama,every ninja in Naruto can walk on water


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## Linkofone (Aug 31, 2013)

Am I too late for this party?


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

Not at all.
:ignoramus


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## Linkofone (Aug 31, 2013)

Oh ok. 

Nayruto might have a high possibility of winning. 

Also, paper clips and subway coupons for everyone!


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## Ashi (Aug 31, 2013)

what the hell have u done to my thread


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

We have elevated it Tensa.


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## Linkofone (Aug 31, 2013)

To a higher level.


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## Wan (Aug 31, 2013)

Like this fight hasn't been done a million times on a million sites with vs. sections before...

Anyways. Since the OP didn't restrict the Avatar State,  Aang and Zuko win.  If you're going to throw around the Mach 14 calc and expect it to be taken seriously I'll go ahead and bring up Iroh's lightning reaction feat.

Btw if Aang has intent to kill that is by definition _not_ IC for Aang.


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## Neruc (Aug 31, 2013)

Yes,if we use calcs on site where it was made on,accepted and used plenty of times before,it means we are to be ridiculed


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

Neruc said:


> Yes,if we use calcs on site where it was made on,accepted and used plenty of times before,it means we are to be ridiculed



Logic beyond Logic.


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## shade0180 (Aug 31, 2013)

This is Oman he'll do anything to make avatar win.


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## Ashi (Aug 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> Like this fight hasn't been done a million times on a million sites with vs. sections before...
> 
> Anyways. Since the OP didn't restrict the Avatar State,  Aang and Zuko win.  If you're going to throw around the Mach 14 calc and expect it to be taken seriously I'll go ahead and bring up Iroh's lightning reaction feat.
> 
> Btw if Aang has intent to kill that is by definition _not_ IC for Aang.



wait wait what?

im pretty sure even naruto's first nine tailed form can go even with avatar state aand since by feats he should be able to blitz both of them same goes for sasuke and that reaction feat is clearly an outlier


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## Wan (Aug 31, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> wait wait what?
> 
> im pretty sure even naruto's first nine tailed form can go even with avatar state aand since by feats he should be able to blitz both of them same goes for sasuke and that reaction feat is clearly an outlier



And clearly the single mach 14 feat for Naruto is not an outlier, right?


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## shade0180 (Aug 31, 2013)

Nope since we have two more numbers higher than it which is mach 48 and mach 143, and nothing contradicts the mach 14.


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## DHxCohaco (Aug 31, 2013)

have you been living under a rock ? naruto is MHS now


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## Wan (Aug 31, 2013)

DHxCohaco said:


> have you been living under a rock ? naruto is MHS now



Ok? The thread is about Part 1 Naruto.


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## DHxCohaco (Aug 31, 2013)

that makes part 1 naruto being mach 14 ( using kyuubi chakra ) legit and not an outlier


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## Lord Valgaav (Aug 31, 2013)

Let it go Oman. Just let it go.


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## Wan (Aug 31, 2013)

Valgaav said:


> Let it go Oman. Just let it go.



Fine, fine, I don't expect to actually convince anyone at this point and I'd much rather talk about differences in durability, attack power, etc. anyways.


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## Lord Valgaav (Aug 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> Fine, fine, I don't expect to actually convince anyone at this point and I'd much rather talk about differences in durability, attack power, etc. anyways.



Well thats easy. Avatar side are glass canons who can't take a single hit from Naruto or Sasuke. But with comet power Ozai and Iroh dwarf them in firepower. Unfortunately for Zuko even with comet power he doesn't stand a chance here. If Aang can get off AS he could take them but thanks to having far superior speed that won't happen.


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## Wan (Aug 31, 2013)

Valgaav said:


> Well thats easy. Avatar side are glass canons who can't take a single hit from Naruto or Sasuke. But with comet power Ozai and Iroh dwarf them in firepower. Unfortunately for Zuko even with comet power he doesn't stand a chance here. If Aang can get off AS he could take them but thanks to having far superior speed that won't happen.



I'd argue that Aang and Zuko could take some plain punches or kicks from Sasuke and Naruto.  They wouldn't survive direct hits from rasengan or chidori, but they both can use lightning redirection in response to chidori.  Aang can keep Naruto at a distance with wind shields.  Zuko can use a fire ring technique to hold back Naruto:



though admittedly it doesn't have the same coverage as Aang's spherical wind shields.


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

How are they going to redirect Chidori?
They have to do those hand motions.


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## DHxCohaco (Aug 31, 2013)

yeah right because mach 14 naruto and sasuke won't blitz their asses


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## Wan (Aug 31, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> How are they going to redirect Chidori?
> They have to do those hand motions.



Probably similar to how Iroh grabbed Azula's hand to redirect her lightning.


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## Lord Valgaav (Aug 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> I'd argue that Aang and Zuko could take some plain punches or kicks from Sasuke and Naruto.  They wouldn't survive direct hits from rasengan or chidori, but they both can use lightning redirection in response to chidori.  Aang can keep Naruto at a distance with wind shields.  Zuko can use a fire ring technique to hold back Naruto:
> 
> 
> 
> though admittedly it doesn't have the same coverage as Aang's spherical wind shields.



Chidori is a concentrated attack. Its not like the random strike of lightning benders use. They can't redirect it.

And no. They won't be taking a single hit. Aside from the bending they're just normal humans. And Sasuke back in FoD was able to casually oneshot a giant bear with a kick. Naruto back in FoD while in KN0 was able to punch away a giant snake. They have more physical strength than Avatar side can take.


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## Wan (Aug 31, 2013)

Valgaav said:


> Chidori is a concentrated attack. Its not like the random strike of lightning benders use. They can't redirect it.



It's electricity.  The technique is used to redirect electricity, while not suffering any damage from it (unless it passes through the heart).  Yes they could redirect it.



> And no. They won't be taking a single hit. Aside from the bending they're just normal humans. And Sasuke back in FoD was able to casually oneshot a giant bear with a kick. Naruto back in FoD while in KN0 was able to punch away a giant snake. They have more physical strength than Avatar side can take.



A normal human would not get back up to fight after this:



And as far as the "giant bear" goes, I'm highly skeptical of the reliability of the memory of Sasuke's #1 fangirl years later while she's bleeding out.


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> I
> And as far as the "giant bear" goes, I'm highly skeptical of the reliability of the memory of Sasuke's #1 fangirl years later while she's bleeding out.


Yes, because she'd glorify him while dying due to him.


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## Wan (Aug 31, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Yes, because she'd glorify him while dying due to him.



Did I forget to mention deluded?  She was reminiscing when she started adoring Sasuke in the first place.


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## Xam (Aug 31, 2013)

Yes, she was reminiscing about how much he'd changed.
So she'd obviously make him look so much better. 

Taking out a giant ass tiger for no reason except to see which scroll she had is so heroic right?


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## Saitomaru (Aug 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> but they both can use lightning redirection in response to chidori.



Last time I checked Chidori wasn't actually electricity. IIRC its chakra made to look and behave like electricity. Kirin is supposed to be the only true lightning/electricity attack shown in the Narutoverse. Not sure if this makes a difference, just felt I should point it out.


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## Ashi (Aug 31, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Last time I checked Chidori wasn't actually electricity. IIRC its chakra made to look and behave like electricity. Kirin is supposed to be the only true lightning/electricity attack shown in the Narutoverse. Not sure if this makes a difference, just felt I should point it out.



If you take the law of equalization into consideration they _might_ be able to bend it but I doubt it since the attack is infused with their chakra


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## Wan (Aug 31, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Last time I checked Chidori wasn't actually electricity. IIRC its chakra made to look and behave like electricity. Kirin is supposed to be the only true lightning/electricity attack shown in the Narutoverse. Not sure if this makes a difference, just felt I should point it out.



Isn't the common argument against bender lightning reactions that bender lightning isn't really lightning either?  It's created by taking "positive energy and negative energy" (ying and yang), separating them, and then crashing them back together.  And firebenders are able to redirect it. In any case, chidori is classified as a lightning release jutsu.  It's created to behave like electricity.  Thus as Tensa says, it should at least fall under ability equivalence.


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## Saitomaru (Aug 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> Isn't the common argument against bender lightning reactions that bender lightning isn't really lightning either?  It's created by taking "positive energy and negative energy" (ying and yang), separating them, and then crashing them back together.  And firebenders are able to redirect it. In any case, chidori is classified as a lightning release jutsu.  It's created to behave like electricity.  Thus as Tensa says, it should at least fall under ability equivalence.



Whoa, whoa, whoa, I was just mentioning what I remembered. I also wasn't sure which side of that fence you'd take so I figured it was worth mentioning either way.


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## Tir (Sep 1, 2013)

Part 1 Naruto and Sasuke stomps. KN1 and CS2 are just too much even for AS


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Tir said:


> Part 1 Naruto and Sasuke stomps. KN1 and CS2 are just too much even for AS



And how do you figure that?


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## Tir (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> And how do you figure that?



Speed and Rasengan


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Tir said:


> Speed and Rasengan



Speed is a topic I'm just not going to touch anymore, but as far as rasengan goes, it's easy for Aang to deal with.  Just stay in the air and knock Naruto back with wind if he tries jumping up.  And if Naruto does manage to get close, it would take at least a few hits to get through Aang's air shield, as he was able to fairly casually smash through rock pillars with it:

[YOUTUBE]hOaZls_Ro5Q[/YOUTUBE]


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## Regicide (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Anyways. Since the OP didn't restrict the Avatar State,  Aang and Zuko win.  If you're going to throw around the Mach 14 calc and expect it to be taken seriously I'll go ahead and bring up Iroh's lightning reaction feat.


..What exactly contradicts the mach 14 calc? 

Mind you, I don't even like Naruto, I'm just wondering why you seem to be implying that it isn't accepted.


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman they can't bend Chidori. In order to redirect lightning they have to conduct it in one part of their body, then let the lightning flow through them out another direction. But in the case of Chidori its a concentrated attack that pierces on impact. So whatever part of them it touches will get destroyed before they get the chance to direct it. 

This is assuming they even can btw which I don't believe they can.


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Valgaav said:


> Oman they can't bend Chidori. In order to redirect lightning they have to conduct it in one part of their body, then let the lightning flow through them out another direction. But in the case of Chidori its a concentrated attack that pierces on impact. So whatever part of them it touches will get destroyed before they get the chance to direct it.
> 
> This is assuming they even can btw which I don't believe they can.



Bender lightning doesn't seem to effect the body of the person trying to redirect it, so why should chidori?  When using lightning redirection the bender is for all intents and purposes immune to the normally damaging effects of the lightning; that's the whole point.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Speed is a topic I'm just not going to touch anymore, but as far as rasengan goes, it's easy for Aang to deal with.  Just stay in the air and knock Naruto back with wind if he tries jumping up.  And if Naruto does manage to get close, it would take at least a few hits to get through Aang's air shield, as he was able to fairly casually smash through rock pillars with it:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]hOaZls_Ro5Q[/YOUTUBE]



Did anyone ever calc that? IMO I never thought of it as very impressive, but my opinion is just that. And based off little more than my take on the feat. And has anyone said what P1 Naruto's DC was? I actually have no clue whether it has any feats even remotely close to AS Aang's.


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Bender lightning doesn't seem to effect the body of the person trying to redirect it, so why should chidori?  When using lightning redirection the bender is for all intents and purposes immune to the normally damaging effects of the lightning; that's the whole point.



When firebenders fire lightning its in a wild bolt. When redirecting it they use their body as a channel to take in the flowing bolt, and fire it back out safely. Although they have to be careful doing this as they could just as easily damage themselves internally taking in the lightning. 

Its not that they are immune to the lightning, thats not the case at all. Its just that the fact that its a bolt they can channel it through their body.

Now what makes Chidori different is that its a concentrated attack with all of its power dedicated to piercing. If a bender tried to bend Chidori by making contact with it their hand/arm would be destroyed before they get the chance to do so because Chidori is a concentrated piercing attack and not a streaming bolt of lightning. 

Even grabbing Sasuke's wrist to avoid the attack in an attempt to redirect it wouldnt work because again its all concentrated into the palm of his hand rather than flowing through his arm.


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Did anyone ever calc that? IMO I never thought of it as very impressive, but my opinion is just that. And based off little more than my take on the feat. And has anyone said what P1 Naruto's DC was? I actually have no clue whether it has any feats even remotely close to AS Aang's.



No Avatar side definitely has better DC. What kills them is lack of speed and durability.


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Valgaav said:


> When firebenders fire lightning its in a wild bolt. When redirecting it they use their body as a channel to take in the flowing bolt, and fire it back out safely. Although they have to be careful doing this as they could just as easily damage themselves internally taking in the lightning.
> 
> Its not that they are immune to the lightning, thats not the case at all. Its just that the fact that its a bolt they can channel it through their body.
> 
> ...



When bender lightning impacts something, it tends to cause an explosion, or even pierce through things, as is the case with these examples:





This does not happen when a bender redirects the lightning.  They are obviously negating the immediate effect of the lightning impacting on their hand.  Yes they could still be harmed if the lightning passes through a particular part of their body, but that's after the normal damage has been negated.  Chidori's initial effect would be negated in the same way, regardless if it's piercing or anything else.


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> When bender lightning impacts something, it tends to cause an explosion, or even pierce through things, as is the case with these examples:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those weren't explosions. The force of the bolts just destroyed what they hit. And not much I must say.

You still don't seem to get what I'm saying about how they use one hand as a conductor to the electricity allowing them to safely but quickly move the lightning through their bodies and out through the other hand.

Because when the benders use lightning its a flowing stream of lightning, the redirection of it is possible. 

But Chidori isn't a flowing attack. Its concentrated and all its power is meant to pierce objects. Therefore if a bender tried to redirect it by taking the electricity in and let it flow through their body, they'd instead be damaged instantly because of the concentrated power of the attack.

Understand? In order to redirect the attack, the attack has to already be flowing it. Its like doing the wave. All they're doing is passing it back in a very smooth fashion. This is impossible for Chidori.


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Valgaav said:


> Those weren't explosions. The force of the bolts just destroyed what they hit. And not much I must say.
> 
> You still don't seem to get what I'm saying about how they use one hand as a conductor to the electricity allowing them to safely but quickly move the lightning through their bodies and out through the other hand.
> 
> ...



Explosion, force, whatever, it's negated when a firebender redirects the lightning.

Yes, the bender is using their hand as a conductor.  But if that's all that was happening, their hand would get badly burned.  The very heat of the lightning would knock them back.  There are plenty of effects to lightning that happen independently of the flow of electricity; the redirection technique negates all of them.  And they don't simply _let_ it flow through their body, they exert control over the flow; they _have_ to be able to exert control, in order to avoid the risk of frying the redirector's heart. 

Chidori may not do its damage by putting its electric current into the target, but it's still an electric attack.  By definition it has an electric flow, an electric flow which comes into _contact_ with the target, and  which the redirection technique by nature will, you know, redirect, while negating other effects like piercing just like it does with lightning.


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Chidori may not do its damage by putting its electric current into the target, but it's still an electric attack.  By definition it has an electric flow, an electric flow which comes into _contact_ with the target, and  which the redirection technique by nature will, you know, redirect, while negating other effects like piercing just like it does with lightning.



Nope. You still arent getting that if its concentrated its not flowing. It is by all means a spear or a sword when it pierces. Now other raiton variants that Sasuke and Kakashi show are different stories since they flow, but Raikiri and Chidori don't. 

Again, if they try to touch it, their hands will get destroyed before they even get the chance to attempt redirection. Because its concentrated power is more than a streaming bolt would be.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Chidori may not do its damage by putting its electric current into the target, but it's still an electric attack.  By definition it has an electric flow, an electric flow which comes into _contact_ with the target, and  which the redirection technique by nature will, you know, redirect, while negating other effects like piercing just like it does with lightning.



Going to point out, By this logic, Rasenshuriken should be bendable by Aang purely because it uses air chakra. Chidori appears in the same manner as electricity, and even seems to make a static-y sound, but it's effects and abilities aren't the same at all. to my knowledge normal lightning doesn't pierce through bodies like a sword while still failing to cauterize the sides of said wound. It simply cuts, rather than actually appearing to really discharge any energy, and that's not the same that can be said of lightning manipulation in avatar - a powerful bolt from Azula that ended up Killing Aang still made a large burn instead of outright cutting like a sword or knife. 
Even supposing it does, though, even in a speed equal situation they still have a ridiculously small area to block against, against an opponent who has eyes capable of predicting their regular attack and defense patterns, so lightning bending or no, they'll have difficulties stopping such an attack.
It should be noted that, in-manga, the lightning simply covered and arced around the hand and arm, rather than being focused at the palm, so it really does seem closer to a simple amp of the user's hand for use in striking than a true "bolt" as lightning-benders use.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Explosion, force, whatever, it's negated when a firebender redirects the lightning.
> 
> Yes, the bender is using their hand as a conductor.  But if that's all that was happening, their hand would get badly burned.  The very heat of the lightning would knock them back.  There are plenty of effects to lightning that happen independently of the flow of electricity; the redirection technique negates all of them.  And they don't simply _let_ it flow through their body, they exert control over the flow; they _have_ to be able to exert control, in order to avoid the risk of frying the redirector's heart.
> 
> Chidori may not do its damage by putting its electric current into the target, but it's still an electric attack.  By definition it has an electric flow, an electric flow which comes into _contact_ with the target, and  which the redirection technique by nature will, you know, redirect, while negating other effects like piercing just like it does with lightning.



This discussion reminded me of the Toph v. Gaara sand manipulation argument. Would firebenders even be capable of bending chidori when its being controlled by it's user (this is ignoring the question of whether or not chidori could be equated to bender lightning and therefore controlled)?


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## Fujita (Sep 1, 2013)

Oh god Gaara vs Crocodile

Well, this is slightly different

From what I can remember, yes, benders are capable of bending attacks that other benders send at them... not so much in the sense of simply wresting away control, but more in the sense of deflecting them using bending. I think Katara vs Pakku is an excellent example of that. The two of them sort of traded the same water, throwing it at each other and redirecting it, freezing it, and the like. As far as I recall, Toph has also done something similar, just stood firm and pulverized earthbending attacks. 

As for redirecting Chidori, assuming it's equivalent, yes.

Iroh grabbed Azula's arm and redirected her lightning attack, which she was still controlling at the time.


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## Ashi (Sep 1, 2013)

Fujita said:


> Oh god Gaara vs Crocodile
> 
> Well, this is slightly different
> 
> ...



I doubt it's that easy since elemental jutsu are imbued with chakra which would make it harder to bend plus chidori doesn't really flow like normal lightning is concentrated


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## Fujita (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Explosion, force, whatever, it's negated when a firebender redirects the lightning.
> 
> Yes, the bender is using their hand as a conductor.  But if that's all that was happening, their hand would get badly burned.  The very heat of the lightning would knock them back.  There are plenty of effects to lightning that happen independently of the flow of electricity; the redirection technique negates all of them.  And they don't simply _let_ it flow through their body, they exert control over the flow; they _have_ to be able to exert control, in order to avoid the risk of frying the redirector's heart.
> 
> Chidori may not do its damage by putting its electric current into the target, but it's still an electric attack.  By definition it has an electric flow, an electric flow which comes into _contact_ with the target, and  which the redirection technique by nature will, you know, redirect, while negating other effects like piercing just like it does with lightning.



This is all true

Well, provided the power of some technique isn't greater than bender lightning, at which point it just becomes NLF to say they can redirect it in the first place.  



TensaXZangetsu said:


> I doubt it's that easy since elemental jutsu are imbued with chakra which would make it harder to bend



_Assuming equivalence_, chakra's just a method of controlling the element, isn't it? If it's not inherently better than bending, i.e. produces stronger effects in the element than bending does, then its presence shouldn't make much of a difference. They'd just bend the element and the chakra comes along, helpless to do anything about it.   



> plus chidori doesn't really flow like normal lightning is concentrated



Is it still an electric current, though, just held static (flowing through Sasuke's hand so it acts like a cutting edge)? 

Well... if at any point in the technique it flows into the bender, which I'd assume it kinda does in order to cause damage, then they could probably redirect it. Might be harder, though. 

Eh.


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## Mambo (Sep 1, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I doubt it's that easy since elemental jutsu are imbued with chakra which would make it harder to bend plus chidori doesn't really flow like normal lightning is concentrated



What the difference between chakra and chi?


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## shade0180 (Sep 1, 2013)

Nothing.


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## Linkofone (Sep 1, 2013)

I think the real way to pronounce it is Qi.


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## Ashi (Sep 1, 2013)

mambo said:


> What the difference between chakra and chi?



I mean their chi/chakra just can't overpower the jutsu enough to bend it

I know about the law of equalizing energy


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Valgaav said:


> Nope. You still arent getting that if its concentrated its not flowing. It is by all means a spear or a sword when it pierces. Now other raiton variants that Sasuke and Kakashi show are different stories since they flow, but Raikiri and Chidori don't.
> 
> Again, if they try to touch it, their hands will get destroyed before they even get the chance to attempt redirection. Because its concentrated power is more than a streaming bolt would be.



It's an electric attack.  Classified as a lightning release jutsu.  By definition, it has flow.

If a bender's hand was vulnerable when touching the electricity, it would get horribly burned and the technique would be useless to begin with.  The bender seems to negate the effects of the lightning _starting upon touching it._  And since benders do have to concentrate the power of a lightning bolt through their hand as they redirect it, I'd say the concentrated power that a bender has to deal with is greater, since Avatarverse lightning users have greater destructive feats than part 1 Sasuke does with chidori.



Saitomaru said:


> This discussion reminded me of the Toph v. Gaara sand manipulation argument. Would firebenders even be capable of bending chidori when its being controlled by it's user (this is ignoring the question of whether or not chidori could be equated to bender lightning and therefore controlled)?



Bender lightning is supposed to be controlled by the user, yet other firebenders can redirect it just fine.  As long as it's the same amount of electricity or less, firebenders should be able to the same with chidori or other lightning release jutsus.



Fujita said:


> This is all true
> 
> Well, provided the power of some technique isn't greater than bender lightning, at which point it just becomes NLF to say they can redirect it in the first place.



Of course.  It's doubtful that a bender could redirect something like Kirin, since it exceeds the power of any lightning bolt a bender has been shown to redirect.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Fujita said:


> Oh god Gaara vs Crocodile
> 
> Well, this is slightly different
> 
> ...



See, my question wasn't about the bending of the technique, it was more along the lines of taking control of a technique away from the user. From what I saw of bender fights it doesn't seem like they're overriding each other's control. I figured this was because the bender seems to stop controlling their element past a certain part of their attacks. When they fling fire they don't seem to control it past directing it. Same with more water techs. Rock throws too.

With Chidori (unless I'm completely mistaken, which is possible) the user is actively focusing on shaping/controlling/focusing their attack the entire time. So to _bend_ chidori one would need to override the user's control of said technique. Lightning bending seems more like firing a gun, you point and shoot. 

So my question was sort of: Can Zuko control/override something under someone else's control? How would you quantify feats of control over something like this? Sand is easier to quantify.


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

The whole concept behind lightning redirection is to use your opponent's energy against them.  From "Bitter Work": 
*
Iroh: Waterbenders deal with the flow of energy. A waterbender lets their defense become their offense, turning their opponents' energy against them. I learned a way to do this with lightning.*

Also, if you think about it, bender lightning has to go a bit beyond "point and shoot".  If the bender had no control over the lightning once it left his/her hands...it would just go straight into the ground.  But it continues forward until it hits the bender's intended target.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Also, if you think about it, bender lightning has to go a bit beyond "point and shoot".  If the bender had no control over the lightning once it left his/her hands...it would just go straight into the ground.  But it continues forward until it hits the bender's intended target.



That's only true if you assume bender lightning is supposed to behave like normal lightning. Which it usually doesn't as you just pointed out. And if we assume they're controlling it the entire way (and are still able to have control pulled from them) we then get into the same Gaara v. Toph/Crocodile argument which goes nowhere fast.



> "If you let the energy in your own body flow, the lightning will follow it. You must create a pathway from your fingertips up your arm to the shoulder, then down into the stomach. The stomach is the source of energy in your body; it is called the sea of chi. From your stomach you direct it up again and out the other arm. The stomach detour is critical; you must not let the lightning pass through your heart, or the damage could be deadly."



This quote actually seems to support what I was saying. As do these:



> Oh yeah, good point! I mean, yes. [Outside.] There is energy all around us. The energy is both yin and yang. Positive energy and negative energy. Only a select few firebenders can separate these energies. This creates an imbalance. The energy wants to restore balance, and in a moment the positive and negative energy come crashing back together, *you provide release and guidance*, creating lightning. [Steps up, and generates lightning, and shoots it away from the two.]





> Remember, once you separate the energy, *you do not command it. You are simply its humble guide*. Breathe first.


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> That's only true if you assume bender lightning is supposed to behave like normal lightning. Which it usually doesn't as you just pointed out. And if we assume they're controlling it the entire way (and are still able to have control pulled from them) we then get into the same Gaara v. Toph/Crocodile argument which goes nowhere fast.



We do know that, regardless if if bender lightning behaves _exactly_ like real-world lightning, it is actual electricity.  In Legend of Korra we see that lightning bending is actually used to generate power for Republic City.



A key characteristic of electricity is that it always seeks the shortest route to the ground.  If the bender was not exerting direct control, upon releasing the lightning it would head for the ground right in front of the bender, not whoever the bender is pointing at.



> This quote actually seems to support what I was saying. As do these:



He still says that the bender is the lightning's "guide", implying a level of control.  His wording is more a warning that lightning is still volatile regardless.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> We do know that, regardless if if bender lightning behaves _exactly_ like real-world lightning, it is actual electricity.  In Legend of Korra we see that lightning bending is actually used to generate power for Republic City.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If we assume all this to be true we still end up with a question of "who's control trumps who's". Which is harder to answer.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 1, 2013)

Chidori's not a fucking lightning bolt.

Have fun redirecting it while Sasuke's stabbing you in the chest.


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> If we assume all this to be true we still end up with a question of "who's control trumps who's". Which is harder to answer.



Or we just assume that lightning redirection acts as advertised, redirecting the electric flow of chidori.  If we don't take it at face value, how can we know for sure that, say, Neji's chakra will actually be able to interrupt the flow of a bender's chi?


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## Qinglong (Sep 1, 2013)

Neji's attack should work just fine seeing as either a) both series operate under the belief a system similar to qi exists, or b) equalization takes care of that


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Or we just assume that lightning redirection acts as advertised, redirecting the electric flow of chidori.  If we don't take it at face value, how can we know for sure that, say, Neji's chakra will actually be able to interrupt the flow of a bender's chi?



That'd be fine and dandy if Chidori wasn't being actively controlled by its user. Why should lightning redirection bypass the user's control automatically? And chi and chakra are already being equalized as is, why wouldn't a character who can see and cut off/seal chakra not be able to do the same to chi?


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Neji's attack should work just fine seeing as either a) both series operate under the belief a system similar to qi exists, or b) equalization takes care of that



Exactly, and the same should apply to electric attacks.



Saitomaru said:


> That'd be fine and dandy if Chidori wasn't being actively controlled by its user. Why should lightning redirection bypass the user's control automatically? And chi and chakra are already being equalized as is, why wouldn't a character who can see and cut off/seal chakra not be able to do the same to chi?



There's indications that a bender does control their own lightning.  If we assume electric attacks are equalized, why wouldn't a character who can take control of and redirect lightning not be able to do the same to electric jutsu like chidori?  You made it sound like it's a question of the level of control.  The simple answer to that is that it's clear that bender lightning has more raw power than chidori, so whatever takes control of bender lightning should be able to take control of chidori.

If you don't think that is enough, then you open up the same uncertainty to Neji's abilities.  How do we know that Neji's chakra will be enough to block a bender's chi?  Is his ability enough to trump a bender's natural flow?  If we can't compare the examples of him using it on the chakra of other ninjas -- like you seem to be reluctant to compare bender lightning to chidori -- then we can't know.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Exactly, and the same should apply to electric attacks.



Not exactly, as I already explained why.



> There's indications that a bender does control their own lightning.



The quote actually makes it sound as thought they guide it, not control it. AKA point it in the direction and let it go. Before you bring up it not going into the ground, it also blows up objects and continues on its way. I've never heard of RL Lightning behaving this way. It being able to act as a power source is nice and all, but it doesn't really explain its more bizarre characteristics.



> If we assume electric attacks are equalized, why wouldn't a character who can take control of and redirect lightning not be able to do the same to electric jutsu like chidori?



Because not all electric techniques are created equally. If Sasuke is focusing his chakra etc etc why should we automatically assume a lightning bender can usurp his control?



> You made it sound like it's a question of the level of control.



That's because it is.



> The simple answer to that is that it's clear that bender lightning has more raw power than chidori, so whatever takes control of bender lightning should be able to take control of chidori.



Are you sure about that? The bender lightning feats you've shown weren't that impressive. And this is a question of the bender's control over the element. What feats of massive control has Zuko exhibited? 



> If you don't think that is enough, then you open up the same uncertainty to Neji's abilities.



No I don't. This isn't a negotiation. One (neji) is covered by equalization, the other isn't. It's only made possible by it. Not guaranteed by it. 



> How do we know that Neji's chakra will be enough to block a bender's chi?  Is his ability enough to trump a bender's natural flow?



If you want to claim a bender's chi is harder to stop than a ninja provide feats for it's resilience. 



> If we can't compare the examples of him using it on the chakra of other ninjas -- like you seem to be reluctant to compare bender lightning to chidori -- then we can't know



I'm not reluctant to compare feats. The problem is that you haven't provided anything that shows that a lightning bender can pull control of chidori from its user. And there are even statements in series (that I quoted) that could be taken to mean the lightning benders aren't even controlling their element passed a certain point.

In series fights between benders rarely (if ever) come to a stalemate/typical clash sequence where two benders are trying to bend each other's element. As with the video you posted, fights tend to go: 

Firebender 1 shoots a fireblast
Firebender 2 bends said fireblast no problem and retaliates in kind
repeat


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> The quote actually makes it sound as thought they guide it, not control it. AKA point it in the direction and let it go. Before you bring up it not going into the ground, it also blows up objects and continues on its way. I've never heard of RL Lightning behaving this way. It being able to act as a power source is nice and all, but it doesn't really explain its more bizarre characteristics.



Of course being able to act as a power source doesn't explain its bizarre characteristics.  Being controlled does.  If you reject that the bender is controlling the lightning, you create _more_ unexplained problems, not less.



> Because not all electric techniques are created equally. If Sasuke is focusing his chakra etc etc why should we automatically assume a lightning bender can usurp his control?



Why should we assume focusing chakra matters in resisting usurping control?



> Are you sure about that? The bender lightning feats you've shown weren't that impressive. And this is a question of the bender's control over the element. What feats of massive control has Zuko exhibited?



A lightning bolt from Azula gouged a hole in a cliffside...



...and later Zuko redirected a bolt from Azula.



Does Sasuke's chidori have any feats, in part 1, that are on par with that?



> No I don't. This isn't a negotiation. One (neji) is covered by equalization, the other isn't. It's only made possible by it. Not guaranteed by it.



The fact that they can interact is guaranteed for both by equivalence, but the idea that Neji is powerful enough?  That isn't.  Of course, it should be clear that he can, because we see him use the technique with chakra systems that should be just as difficult to block as any bender's chi.  Similarly, it should be clear that firebenders can redirect chidori since they take control of lightning bolts just as powerful, if not stronger than, chidori.



> If you want to claim a bender's chi is harder to stop than a ninja provide feats for it's resilience.



And if you want to claim that a ninja's chidori wouldn't be redirected by the lightning redirection technique, provide feats for it resisting being controlled by someone else.



> I'm not reluctant to compare feats. The problem is that you haven't provided anything that shows that a lightning bender can pull control of chidori from its user. And there are even statements in series (that I quoted) that could be taken to mean the lightning benders aren't even controlling their element passed a certain point.



Lightning redirection by definition takes control of lightning.  And the only way saying the bender isn't controlling the lightning bolt to some extent is if you ignore Iroh repeatedly saying "guide" and you ignore the behavior of the bolt once it leaves the firebender's fingers.



> In series fights between benders rarely (if ever) come to a stalemate/typical clash sequence where two benders are trying to bend each other's element. As with the video you posted, fights tend to go:
> 
> Firebender 1 shoots a fireblast
> Firebender 2 bends said fireblast no problem and retaliates in kind
> repeat



Lightning is explicitly different than regular firebending, so that doesn't apply.  It's specifically supposed to be taking control of an enemy's energy and using it against them.


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## Fujita (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> See, my question wasn't about the bending of the technique, it was more along the lines of taking control of a technique away from the user. From what I saw of bender fights it doesn't seem like they're overriding each other's control. I figured this was because the bender seems to stop controlling their element past a certain part of their attacks. When they fling fire they don't seem to control it past directing it. Same with more water techs. Rock throws too.



If they affect an attack that somebody's controlling, that's effectively taking control of a technique away from the user. 

So, to address the second point of what you're saying?

[youtube]YsZ267DRdq4[/youtube]

Hama and Katara sort of trade the same water there, each simply receiving the attack and whipping it around. 

More interesting is Hamma's massive final attack, where she's actually shaping it while it's traveling, presumably making it more powerful as she goes along. So I think that's a pretty clear example of somebody _not_ just tossing it and then relinquishing bending control. And then Katara simply reflects it using her own bending.

As for directly overriding somebody's bending, there's the most concrete example in the series right there: Katara shrugging off Hama's bloodbending with her own moon-enhanced waterbending power. 

While for the most part, bending doesn't seem to work this way (firebending _never_ does), it's actually fairly common in waterbending. Hence why Iroh derived the lightning redirection idea from watching waterbenders and not firebenders.  



> With Chidori (unless I'm completely mistaken, which is possible) the user is actively focusing on shaping/controlling/focusing their attack the entire time. So to _bend_ chidori one would need to override the user's control of said technique. Lightning bending seems more like firing a gun, you point and shoot.



Well, I'm really fucking rusty on my Naruto knowledge and I never actually got to the theory behind elemental techniques bit... I don't see anything entirely wrong with what you've said here. 

But I'd argue that in order for chidori to have a piercing effect like it does, it actually _is_ flowing into its target, one way or another. It's held close, so the current only flows within a limited area of effect (which gives you that pulsing effect). Then the user physically brings the focused attack to his opponent so that they're now within that area of effect. 

And when that happens, the person controlling the chidori is letting the chakra enter their opponent. Not sure that they're then trying to get it back out, unless you think it's like some sort of electrical buzz saw. Or, for that matter, specifically directing it at that point beyond just spearing their opponent with it. So, they're kinda throwing it like a bender might, and the bender's essentially going along with the technique's momentum by just channeling it further into their body, where it was going to begin with. 

That's... how I'd see it happening. 



> So my question was sort of: Can Zuko control/override something under someone else's control?



Using the waterbending redirect principle, sure. It's not so much completely overriding control as it is adding your own control in a way that your opponent's energy can't resist.

Zuko can't do that while shooting fire, though, because that's just not how firebending works. 



> How would you quantify feats of control over something like this? Sand is easier to quantify.



Attack power, I guess. 

Since it's redirected, it's not quite the same as trying to wrest control of it head-on.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Of course being able to act as a power source doesn't explain its bizarre characteristics.  Being controlled does.  If you reject that the bender is controlling the lightning, you create _more_ unexplained problems, not less.



Only if you are operating under the assumption that you're suggestion is correct (which has little supporting it).



> Why should we assume focusing chakra matters in resisting usurping control?



Because that means the user is actively controlling their jutsu. Why are you assuming that a firebender can take control away regardless of the user's control?



> A lightning bolt from Azula gouged a hole in a cliffside...
> 
> 
> 
> ...and later Zuko redirected a bolt from Azula.



Two problems with trying to use that as proof:

1. That's a feat for the lightning's strength, not the bender's actual power as far as control goes.
2. Can you quantify that?



> Does Sasuke's chidori have any feats, in part 1, that are on par with that?



Not sure, off the top of my head his chidori has stalemated Naruto's rasegan, pierced gaara's sand shield-thing, and pierced K1 Naruto (I think he had one tail during that fight). Their profiles aren't set up in such a way as to make this easy on me. But the lowest thing on Sasuke's profile states he is large building level in base.

The fact that they can interact is guaranteed for both by equivalence, but the idea that Neji is powerful enough?  That isn't.  Of course, it should be clear that he can, because we see him use the technique with chakra systems that should be just as difficult to block as any bender's chi.  Similarly, it should be clear that firebenders can redirect chidori since they take control of lightning bolts just as powerful, if not stronger than, chidori.





> And if you want to claim that a ninja's chidori wouldn't be redirected by the lightning redirection technique, provide feats for it resisting being controlled by someone else.



How about this, you provide feats for firebenders taking control from each other first. And I'll respond once you've done this.

I'm also unsure why I'm even arguing this when Sasuke has lolprecog on his side and the speed advantage.



> Lightning redirection by definition takes control of lightning.



No, by Iroh's own words it merely guides the lightning. It is stated explicitly that they do not control it.



> And the only way saying the bender isn't controlling the lightning bolt to some extent *is if you ignore Iroh repeatedly saying "guide"*





> guide
> gīd/Submit
> noun
> 1.
> ...



False again. Guide can mean a whole host of things. But it doesn't mean complete control. Guide could (and most likely does) mean they are simply 'pointing the direction' and letting it flow.



> and you ignore the behavior of the bolt once it leaves the firebender's fingers.



Again, false. This only becomes a problem if you assume that bender lighting should behave as normal lightning does. There is nothing to indicate that this is the case. When has bender lightning EVER shown a tendency to target the ground? You'd say never and explain this with something like 'that's because the firebenders are controlling it to prevent this'.



> Lightning is explicitly different than regular firebending, so that doesn't apply.  It's specifically supposed to be *taking control of an enemy's energy and using it against them.*



No, its not. It is explicitly stated to simply guide the lightning. Nothing was ever stated about lightning redirection being intended for this purpose.

And all this begs another question: If we assume you're theory to be true, and firebenders ARE really taking control away from each other. Why would weaker benders be able to control the fire of a stronger bender? 

You're operating under several assumptions.

Bender's control their element passed the moment of 'point and shoot' and are backing this up with...
...the assumption that bender lightning (which has already showcased bizarre behavior) should auto target the ground rather than fly in straight directions when shot. And you back this up with...
...behavior found in real life lightning and the fact that bender lightning can be used as a power source.

You're operating on a web of assumptions, all of which either have little supporting them (or nothing at all). Take these assumptions away and what do you have?

Now that I think of it, one of the only things even remotely supporting your assumptions is that instance where Iroh redirected actual lightning. But even that doesn't help when you have numerous other things contradicting you.


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## Fujita (Sep 1, 2013)

Now I feel like a jerk for giving you yet another wall of text to reply to


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

*Double posting since I didn't notice this before I made my other post.*



Fujita said:


> If they affect an attack that somebody's controlling, that's effectively taking control of a technique away from the user.
> 
> So, to address the second point of what you're saying?
> 
> ...



Yeah, I noted that waterbending seems to work this way (air bending to an extent as well). This doesn't necessarily mean that it applies to all forms of bending. We see that it isn't the case with normal firebending, and we have little to go on with lightning bending and redirection.



> While for the most part, bending doesn't seem to work this way (firebending _never_ does), it's actually fairly common in waterbending. Hence why Iroh derived the lightning redirection idea from watching waterbenders and not firebenders.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm really fucking rusty on my Naruto knowledge and I never actually got to the theory behind elemental techniques bit... I don't see anything entirely wrong with what you've said here.



Okay.



> But I'd argue that in order for chidori to have a piercing effect like it does, it actually _is_ flowing into its target, one way or another. It's held close, so the current only flows within a limited area of effect (which gives you that pulsing effect). Then the user physically brings the focused attack to his opponent so that they're now within that area of effect.



I wasn't the one arguing whether or not it's flowing. I chose to just go to the source and ask about control.



> And when that happens, the person controlling the chidori is letting the chakra enter their opponent. Not sure that they're then trying to get it back out, unless you think it's like some sort of electrical buzz saw. Or, for that matter, specifically directing it at that point beyond just spearing their opponent with it. So, they're kinda throwing it like a bender might, and the bender's essentially going along with the technique's momentum by just channeling it further into their body, where it was going to begin with.



IIRC when chidori is used successfully the user's hand is sticking out the other side of their opponent which chidori still active. The technique really just amps your cutting/piercing ability, its not about the actual electricity (well, not in P1 that is). *EDIT:* I was thinking of Kakashi's variant Raikiri, this should apply to chidori nonetheless.



> That's... how I'd see it happening.



I'm still unsure whether the bender could grab something designed for cutting/piercing.



> Using the waterbending redirect principle, sure. It's not so much completely overriding control as it is adding your own control in a way that your opponent's energy can't resist.
> 
> Zuko can't do that while shooting fire, though, because that's just not how firebending works.



That's partially why I was wondering if there is even any proof that a lightning bender does anything more than point (guide) and shoot.



> Attack power, I guess.



That's a bit of a problem.



> Since it's redirected, it's not quite the same as trying to wrest control of it head-on.



With normal lightning redirection, I agree. But when the opponent is specifically keeping their energy focused in their hand taking that energy and making it go somewhere else would require overriding the control that that user was exerting to keep it in his hand.


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## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Only if you are operating under the assumption that you're suggestion is correct (which has little supporting it).



That electricity would head straight into the ground if it wasn't controlled?  It's called physics.



> Because that means the user is actively controlling their jutsu. Why are you assuming that a firebender can take control away regardless of the user's control?



Because _that's what they do._



> Two problems with trying to use that as proof:
> 
> 1. That's a feat for the lightning's strength, not the bender's actual power as far as control goes.
> 2. Can you quantify that?



It's a feat for Zuko's strength when it comes to redirecting, at least.  



> Not sure, off the top of my head his chidori has stalemated Naruto's rasegan, pierced gaara's sand shield-thing, and pierced K1 Naruto (I think he had one tail during that fight). Their profiles aren't set up in such a way as to make this easy on me. But the lowest thing on Sasuke's profile states he is large building level in base.



Sasuke's profile probably isn't limited to part 1.



> How about this, you provide feats for firebenders taking control from each other first. And I'll respond once you've done this.



Every time lightning is redirected.



> I'm also unsure why I'm even arguing this when Sasuke has lolprecog on his side and the speed advantage.



Sasuke has limited precog, basically allowing him to predict physical movements by following the chakra (or in a bender's case, chi) of his opponent.  In a longer martial arts battle, that would be a distinct advantage; chidori, however, is a single strike, a very telegraphed single strike.  Zuko's movement would be in response to Sasuke's, which means Sasuke would not foresee Zuko's move until Sasuke has already made his move, thus making it irrelevant. 


> No, by Iroh's own words it merely guides the lightning. It is stated explicitly that they do not control it.
> 
> False again. Guide can mean a whole host of things. But it doesn't mean complete control. Guide could (and most likely does) mean they are simply 'pointing the direction' and letting it flow.



The first verb definition you highlighted only works if you assume the lightning is intelligently choosing its own course -- which would be ridiculous.  The second one fits what I'm trying to say.  Even "pointing the direction" conveys the idea that some control is being exerted over the lightning to make sure it goes that way.



> Again, false. This only becomes a problem if you assume that bender lighting should behave as normal lightning does. There is nothing to indicate that this is the case. When has bender lightning EVER shown a tendency to target the ground? You'd say never and explain this with something like 'that's because the firebenders are controlling it to prevent this'.



Since you asked.



After Aang is hit by Azula's lightning, an "exit wound" is clearly visible on the bottom of his foot.  After the lightning hit its target, it defaulted to behaving like any electricity would -- heading straight for the ground.



> No, its not. It is explicitly stated to simply guide the lightning. Nothing was ever stated about lightning redirection being intended for this purpose.



Iroh: Waterbenders deal with the flow of energy. A waterbender lets their defense become their offense*, turning their opponents' energy against them. I learned a way to do this with lightning. *

Yes, it is explicitly stated that they turn their opponents' energy against them.  Iroh's technique is specifically supposed to be modeled after the way waterbending works.



> And all this begs another question: If we assume you're theory to be true, and firebenders ARE really taking control away from each other. Why would weaker benders be able to control the fire of a stronger bender?



Because the redirection technique essentially acts as a trump card to normal lightning control.  The firebender only takes control of the opponent's lightning upon it impacting the target the opponent wanted it to hit.


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## Qinglong (Sep 1, 2013)

He does have a (low) large building level feat in Part 1: 



Kidomaru has one around half that level, although I'm not quite sure if there was a problem with it:

All you never wanted to know about the Hardy Boys.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> That electricity would head straight into the ground if it wasn't controlled?  It's called physics.



Yeah, for real life lightning. Bender lightning has shown strange behavior. Why are you assuming it shares the traits of normal lightning when it behaves almost completely different?



> Because _that's what they do._



So correct me if I'm wrong, but what it seems like you're saying is that lightning direction will redirect lightning techniques regardless of the user's control simply because that's what you're saying it does... that stinks of NLF.



> It's a feat for Zuko's strength when it comes to redirecting, at least.



Not if we don't assume lightning bending controls the element passed the pointing and shooting.



> Sasuke's profile probably isn't limited to part 1.



Yeah, I agree. That's why I listed the other things in addition.



> Every time lightning is redirected.



Quantify that.



> Sasuke has limited precog, basically allowing him to predict physical movements by following the chakra (or in a bender's case, chi) of his opponent.  In a longer martial arts battle, that would be a distinct advantage; chidori, however, is a single strike, a very telegraphed single strike.  Zuko's movement would be in response to Sasuke's, which means Sasuke would not foresee Zuko's move until Sasuke has already made his move, thus making it irrelevant.



Actually, it's made pretty clear that using the sharingan together with chidori allows the user to predict their opponent's movement and intercept them. That's really the only reason why Kakashi ever managed to hit someone with it. Not that that even matters given the speed advantage that exists here. And no, I'm not saying lolprecog works on everything. But it should work just fine here.



> The first verb definition you highlighted only works if you assume the lightning is intelligently choosing its own course -- which would be ridiculous.  The second one fits what I'm trying to say.  Even "pointing the direction" conveys the idea that some control is being exerted over the lightning *to make sure it goes that way.*



Again, only if you assume the bender lightning would do anything other than fly straight like it has shown.



> Since you asked.
> 
> 
> 
> After Aang is hit by Azula's lightning, an "exit wound" is clearly visible on the bottom of his foot.  After the lightning hit its target, it defaulted to behaving like any electricity would -- heading straight for the ground.



I concede on that point then. You really should have brought this up a while back and saved me all the typing. Now you just need to quantify their lightning bending.



> Iroh: Waterbenders deal with the flow of energy. A waterbender lets their defense become their offense*, turning their opponents' energy against them. I learned a way to do this with lightning. *
> 
> Yes, it is explicitly stated that they turn their opponents' energy against them.  Iroh's technique is specifically supposed to be modeled after the way waterbending works.



This still doesn't show that they pull control from each other.



> Because the redirection technique essentially acts as a trump card to normal lightning control.



A trump card that would still require some measure of control.

And are you going to explain how Zuko avoids being blitzed?


----------



## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> He does have a (low) large building level feat in Part 1:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Er, making a small, extremely shallow crater counts as low/large building level now?  Kidomaru's feat actually looks more impressive to me.


----------



## Regicide (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Er, making a small, extremely shallow crater counts as low/large building level now?  Kidomaru's feat actually looks more impressive to me.


If the math fits?

Don't see why not.


----------



## xlab3000 (Sep 1, 2013)

Naruto and Sasuke


----------



## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> So correct me if I'm wrong, but what it seems like you're saying is that lightning direction will redirect lightning techniques regardless of the user's control simply because that's what you're saying it does... that stinks of NLF.



I didn't say regardless of the _level_ of control.



> Quantify that.



I already did roughly quantify it as it relates to Zuko's control when redirecting a bolt from Azula.  



> Actually, it's made pretty clear that using the sharingan together with chidori allows the user to predict their opponent's movement and intercept them. That's really the only reason why Kakashi ever managed to hit someone with it. Not that that even matters given the speed advantage that exists here. And no, I'm not saying lolprecog works on everything. But it should work just fine here.



"Intercept" them as in hit them, sure.  Precognition doesn't quite seem to be a necessary component of that, anyways; IIRC the high speed required by chidori resulted in tunnel vision.  Sharingan, including the precog-less 2 tomoe version, allowed the user to see past the tunnel vision and thus make chidori viable.



> I concede on that point then. You really should have brought this up a while back and saved me all the typing. Now you just need to quantify their lightning bending.



Didn't think of it until you framed the question that way. 



Regicide said:


> If the math fits?
> 
> Don't see why not.



That calculation seems to assume that Sasuke's katon was a straight explosion.  It doesn't seem that way to me.

Link removed

Rather it seems like a sustained plume of fire which creates the crater over a few seconds.  This makes sense given that the crater seems evened out and not particularly deeper in the middle.  If a simple explosion had gone off, the crater would be riddled with marks from rocks getting ripped out, assymetrical shockwaves from the explosion, etc., and the center would be pushed deeper since it would receive more force from the explosion.

Regardless, this is an example of Sasuke's destructive capability with katons, not his chidori.


----------



## Regicide (Sep 1, 2013)

Why does it matter? It pulverized the ground, that's all that's important.

It doesn't need to be an explosion.


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> I didn't say regardless of the _level_ of control.



But that's what you've been implying this whole time.



> I already did roughly quantify it as it relates to Zuko's control when redirecting a bolt from Azula.



You never actually quantified that power of the attack. All we saw was a dust cloud and some debris



> "Intercept" them as in hit them, sure.  Precognition doesn't quite seem to be a necessary component of that, anyways; IIRC the high speed required by chidori resulted in tunnel vision.  Sharingan, including the precog-less 2 tomoe version, allowed the user to see past the tunnel vision and thus make chidori viable.



P1 Sasuke has access to the 3 tomoe sharingan, and Kakashi's sharingan (IIRC) always had 3 tomoe starting from when he got it.



> Didn't think of it until you framed the question that way.



Okay.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's Zuko's best firebending feat? His profile says with comet amp he's large building level. Which (taking both his and Sasuke's profiles at face value) would mean they'd stalemate if Zuko tried to neutralize Sasuke's Katon.


----------



## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> But that's what you've been implying this whole time.



No, that's not what I have been arguing.



> You never actually quantified that power of the attack. All we saw was a dust cloud and some debris



Hence "roughly"



> P1 Sasuke has access to the 3 tomoe sharingan, and Kakashi's sharingan (IIRC) always had 3 tomoe starting from when he got it.



Yes, but Sasuke could use the chidori with only the 2 tomoe sharingan.  The precognition part comes with 3 tomoe, so it couldn't be a necessary element for chidori use.



> What's Zuko's best firebending feat? His profile says with comet amp he's large building level. Which (taking both his and Sasuke's profiles at face value) would mean they'd stalemate if Zuko tried to neutralize Sasuke's Katon.



His best non-comet firebending feat is probably this.



And all his comet firebending feats come from his fight with Azula.

[youtube]oCXHi0kFucc[/youtube]

(again, the video seems just slightly sped up and the top and bottom are cropped off to avoid being taken down.)



Regicide said:


> Why does it matter? It pulverized the ground, that's all that's important.
> 
> It doesn't need to be an explosion.



It could have forced the ground aside, rather than pulverizing it.  And if it's not an explosion, we can't ascertain the exact time frame it occurs over.


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> No, that's not what I have been arguing.





> > Because that means the user is actively controlling their jutsu. *Why are you assuming that a firebender can take control away regardless of the user's control?*
> 
> 
> Because that's what they do.



Just one example.



> Hence "roughly"



Not very helpful.



> Yes, but Sasuke could use the chidori with only the 2 tomoe sharingan.  The precognition part comes with 3 tomoe, so it couldn't be a necessary element for chidori use.



And Sasuke would be unlikely to use his 2 tomoe sharingan instead of his 3 tomoe sharingan.



> His best non-comet firebending feat is probably this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Has anyone bothered to quantify those feats?


----------



## Fujita (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Yeah, I noted that waterbending seems to work this way (air bending to an extent as well). This doesn't necessarily mean that it applies to all forms of bending. We see that it isn't the case with normal firebending, and we have little to go on with lightning bending and redirection.



Well, the theory behind lightning bending is directly derived from that aspect of waterbending. In practice, it seems to work quite the same way. Only goes for redirection, so I'll address your point about guiding later on. or not



> I wasn't the one arguing whether or not it's flowing. I chose to just go to the source and ask about control.



Well, the flowing thing sort of relates to exactly how tightly controlled we consider chidori to be. 



> IIRC when chidori is used successfully the user's hand is sticking out the other side of their opponent which chidori still active. The technique really just amps your cutting/piercing ability, its not about the actual electricity (well, not in P1 that is). *EDIT:* I was thinking of Kakashi's variant Raikiri, this should apply to chidori nonetheless.



Yeah, in Part 1 they actually never mention lightning chakra or whatever.

If the variant Sasuke used didn't use it, then we may as well stop this debate right here because it's pointless. Though if he did use lightning and it's just something that the author never elaborated on at the time, then eh... 

Assuming it's the latter, chidori seems to work like any of the static energy weapons scattered through fiction, from Kizaru's light sword to Gundam beam sabers or whatever; just some energy construct that gets swung around by somebody instead of really doing anything by itself. 

I don't think you're really supposed to take them as much besides fancy swords. So maybe I'm overanalyzing it a bit by trying to get into its specific cutting mechanism. 

I would just think that if the energy that's been focused into the hand is going to actually _do_ anything, it has to actually transfer in part to its target. For an electric attack, that would logically work through some kind of current, even if that current is deliberately focused into one place. And the focus seems more akin to the "point" while whatever it does when it makes contact would be a lot like the "shoot" at which point it could be redirected. 



> I'm still unsure whether the bender could grab something designed for cutting/piercing.



It's not much different from "grabbing" something designed for electrocuting. If they can redirect the electric force as it hits, then the cutting potential of the attack just sort of vanishes as a matter of course.  

Also



> mfw I refresh while typing up my reply 

Have you two just worked out the whole chidori redirection thing?


----------



## Amae (Sep 1, 2013)

is pretty strong for the verse.


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Fujita said:


> Well, the theory behind lightning bending is directly derived from that aspect of waterbending. In practice, it seems to work quite the same way. Only goes for redirection, so I'll address your point about guiding later on. or not



Heh.



> Well, the flowing thing sort of relates to exactly how tightly controlled we consider chidori to be.



Okay.



> Yeah, in Part 1 they actually never mention lightning chakra or whatever.
> 
> If the variant Sasuke used didn't use it, then we may as well stop this debate right here because it's pointless. Though if he did use lightning and it's just something that the author never elaborated on at the time, then eh...
> 
> ...



That's the thing, P1 chidori doesn't focus on actually electrocuting it's target. It just turns the user's hand into a fancy looking spear. IIRC it's only P2 that you begin to see variants focused on the electricity part. That's why I asked, since its less like grabbing a taser and more like grabbing a spear head.



> Also
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, we finally got to the point I feared we'd reach. The scramble for feats that show control (the part that made Toph v. Gaara so annoying.


----------



## Wan (Sep 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Just one example.



I was responding in the context of someone with control on the level of Sasuke's.  My proper response should have been that it's not regardless of control, but it should work against someone with Sasuke's level of control



> Not very helpful.



I don't put too much weight in pixel counting "calculations" anyways. *shrug*



> And Sasuke would be unlikely to use his 2 tomoe sharingan instead of his 3 tomoe sharingan.



Sure.



> Has anyone bothered to quantify those feats?



Not that I know of.



Fujita said:


> Yeah, in Part 1 they actually never mention lightning chakra or whatever.
> 
> If the variant Sasuke used didn't use it, then we may as well stop this debate right here because it's pointless. Though if he did use lightning and it's just something that the author never elaborated on at the time, then eh...
> 
> ...



This spurred me to look up the initial explanation of chidori:

Link removed

No one actually makes a reference to the technique acting like electricity or anything like that.  It just talks about focusing chakra.  Chidori is still classified as a "lightning release" jutsu, so I'm not sure where that leaves it.  The impression that chidori is electricity may come more directly from the anime, where chidori is animated to look more like electricity.





If chidori really is just focused chakra that isn't even putting up the appearance of electricity, then the lightning redirection technique would do nothing and the bender's hand would get torn to shreds.


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> I was responding in the context of someone with control on the level of Sasuke's.  My proper response should have been that it's not regardless of control, but it should work against someone with Sasuke's level of control



Okay...



> I don't put too much weight in pixel counting "calculations" anyways. *shrug*



Okay.



> Sure.



Okay.



> Not that I know of.



Great...



> This spurred me to look up the initial explanation of chidori:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



I guess maybe it was just P2 that makes references to electricity.


----------



## Ashi (Sep 1, 2013)

Im pretty sure gaara would annihilate toph just sayin...


----------



## LazyWaka (Sep 2, 2013)

Whats this about part 1 chidori not being lightning release?


----------



## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

LazyWaka said:


> Whats this about part 1 chidori not being lightning release?



That's the thing though, it's technically classified as lightning release but as it's described in Part 1 it doesn't seem to actually have anything to do with electricity.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> That's the thing though, it's technically classified as lightning release but as it's described in Part 1 it doesn't seem to actually have anything to do with electricity.



Newsflash: even if it was Benders would get raped in the asshole by it.


----------



## Ashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> Newsflash: even if it was Benders would get raped in the asshole by it.



Lol redirecting chidori 

Anyway I don't think benders can bend ninjutsu 

Even under the law of equalizing


----------



## Cromer (Sep 2, 2013)

Even if we assumed a lightning bender could redirect Chidori...


How long does the redirection take? What's to stop the massively faster Sasuke from plain kicking Zuko's face in if he somehoz managed to catch Sasuke's arm before it went through his chest and out the back?


----------



## Fujita (Sep 2, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> Newsflash: even if it was Benders would get raped in the asshole by it.





TensaXZangetsu said:


> Lol redirecting chidori
> 
> Anyway I don't think benders can bend ninjutsu
> 
> Even under the law of equalizing



You guys are welcome to actually refute somebody's arguments


*Spoiler*: __ 





Fujita said:


> Assuming it's the latter, chidori seems to work like any of the static energy weapons scattered through fiction, from Kizaru's light sword to Gundam beam sabers or whatever; just some energy construct that gets swung around by somebody instead of really doing anything by itself.
> 
> I don't think you're really supposed to take them as much besides fancy swords. So maybe I'm overanalyzing it a bit by trying to get into its specific cutting mechanism.
> 
> ...





 

Or look at whatever Oman and Saitomaru agreed on.

Unless you're just arguing power. 

Are we scaling chidori off of Sasuke's 2.09 ton fireball feat? If so, that's... really right in the range of Azula's 1.67 ton lightning feat. 

Well, and then there's this



Cromer said:


> Even if we assumed a lightning bender could redirect Chidori...
> 
> 
> How long does the redirection take? What's to stop the massively faster Sasuke from plain kicking Zuko's face in if he somehoz managed to catch Sasuke's arm before it went through his chest and out the back?


----------



## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Lol redirecting chidori
> 
> Anyway I don't think benders can bend ninjutsu
> 
> Even under the law of equalizing



Why?  That would mean firebenders can't dispel katons, waterbenders can't influence suitons, earthbenders can't do anything to dotons, etc.  That makes no sense.


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> Why?  That would mean firebenders can't dispel katons, waterbenders can't influence suitons, earthbenders can't do anything to dotons, etc.  That makes no sense.



I don't exactly agree with him, but why would this not make sense? Nothing states that Benders have to be capable of influencing/controlling Chakra composed 'elements'.


----------



## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> I don't exactly agree with him, but why would this not make sense? Nothing states that Benders have to be capable of influencing/controlling Chakra composed 'elements'.



Equivalence does.  The distinction that elements created by ninjutsu are "chakra controlled" is ultimately an arbitrary one.  Again, a counterexample would be Neji influencing a bender's chi.  Nothing _states_ that Byakugan has to be capable of influencing a bender's chi.


----------



## Ashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> Equivalence does.  The distinction that elements created by ninjutsu are "chakra controlled" is ultimately an arbitrary one.  Again, a counterexample would be Neji influencing a bender's chi.  Nothing _states_ that Byakugan has to be capable of influencing a bender's chi.



Because ninjutsu can only be controlled by the wielder's chakra while byakugan affects any of the chakra points


----------



## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Because ninjutsu can only be controlled by the wielder's chakra



Says who? No seriously, do you have a source that says that ninjutsu can _only_ be controlled by the wielder's chakra?



> while byakugan affects any of the chakra points



And bending effects any of its given element.


----------



## Ashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> Says who? No seriously, do you have a source that says that ninjutsu can _only_ be controlled by the wielder's chakra?
> 
> 
> 
> And bending effects any of its given element.



I'm pretty sure avatar characters would have to completely overpower the opposing chakra for it to work like you claim 

And I'd don't see that happening unless you can provide scans of avatar characters bending each others bending


----------



## Fujita (Sep 2, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I'm pretty sure avatar characters would have to completely overpower the opposing chakra for it to work like you claim





Fujita said:


> Assuming it's the latter, chidori seems to work like any of the static energy weapons scattered through fiction, from Kizaru's light sword to Gundam beam sabers or whatever; just some energy construct that gets swung around by somebody instead of really doing anything by itself.
> 
> I don't think you're really supposed to take them as much besides fancy swords. So maybe I'm overanalyzing it a bit by trying to get into its specific cutting mechanism.
> 
> I would just think that if the energy that's been focused into the hand is going to actually _do_ anything, it has to actually transfer in part to its target. For an electric attack, that would logically work through some kind of current, even if that current is deliberately focused into one place. And the focus seems more akin to the "point" while whatever it does when it makes contact would be a lot like the "shoot" at which point it could be redirected.





TensaXZangetsu said:


> And I'd don't see that happening unless you can provide scans of avatar characters bending each others bending





Fujita said:


> [youtube]YsZ267DRdq4[/youtube]
> 
> Hama and Katara sort of trade the same water there, each simply receiving the attack and whipping it around.
> 
> ...



Fucking

hell


----------



## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I'm pretty sure avatar characters would have to completely overpower the opposing chakra for it to work like you claim
> 
> And I'd don't see that happening unless you can provide scans of avatar characters bending each others bending



Ok?  It's pretty commonplace with waterbending.

[YOUTUBE]YsZ267DRdq4[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]tSBG5CHBaK4[/YOUTUBE]

Particularly at :23 and :34 in that second one.  Because waterbenders can't create their own water, fights between waterbenders boils down to maintaining control of the water you're using while trying to redirect water that your opponent is controlling.  The same concept can be applied to earthbending, though earthbending defenses more often consist of making your own sort of rock shield to stop incoming rocks.  That said, there are examples of earthbenders exerting control over earth that another earthbender is using.




(Toph exploding incoming Dai Li rock gloves)

Firebenders don't seem to take direct control of enemy fire so much (again, that seems particular to waterbenders), but they at least have the ability to defensively dispel incoming fire.

[youtube]-BnVP5Rlqnk[/youtube]

And really, how different is this over ninjutsu?  Katon users don't demonstrate a lot of control over the fire once they've generated it, and dotons are basically just about materializing a bunch of rocks and dropping them on your enemy.  The exceptions I can think of are that suiton users generally demonstrate more control over the water after they create it -- similar to waterbenders -- and Gaara's sand, which is a special case.


----------



## Ashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Ok I guess benders can bend some elemental jutsu but large scale ones such as rasenshuriken or madara's fire style I'm doubtful  but anyway team 1 still one solos


----------



## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Ok I guess benders can bend some elemental jutsu but large scale ones such as rasenshuriken or madara's fire style I'm doubtful  but anyway team 1 still one solos



Rasenshuriken or amaterasu are more complicated because the former isn't something made to be directly wind, but rather it's an energy construct made using "wind chakra", while the latter has nothing in the Avatar universe to directly compare to.  I doubt an airbender could influence a rasenshuriken, while I would find it plausible if a firebender could or couldn't control amaterasu. If you're talking about Madara's katons, that just comes down raw power.  Get a powerful enough firebender, and in principle that firebender could deflect Madara's katons.  But that leaves the question if any firebender has that sort of power. _Maybe_ Ozai, Iroh, or Avatar State Aang with Sozin's Comet power.  (not to suggest any of them would stand a chance against Madara, as Madara has many, many more ways of killing them -- just that they might be able to handle the raw power of Madara's katons).

Simple katons, suitons, dotons, etc., which are just supposed to create normal fire, water, and earth?  Bending should work just fine on those in principle.


----------



## Ashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> Rasenshuriken or amaterasu are more complicated because the former isn't something made to be directly wind, but rather it's an energy construct made using "wind chakra", while the latter has nothing in the Avatar universe to directly compare to.  I doubt an airbender could influence a rasenshuriken, while I would find it plausible if a firebender could or couldn't control amaterasu.
> 
> But simple katons, suitons, dotons, etc., which are just supposed to create normal fire, water, and earth?  Bending would work just fine on those in principle.




So Zuko can bend Madara's fire techniques?


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> Equivalence does.  The distinction that *elements created by ninjutsu are "chakra controlled" is ultimately an arbitrary one.*  Again, a counterexample would be Neji influencing a bender's chi.  Nothing _states_ that Byakugan has to be capable of influencing a bender's chi.



See, you're confused. Ninjutsu doesn't create true elements. They are chakra molded to imitate an element. It is made explicitly clear when a jutsu is manipulating a true element and not just chakra (Kirin is true lightning). My question wasn't whether equivalence would allow benders to manipulate elements in Naruto. My question was what actually proves/states that a bender could control fire chakra (for example)? And I honestly don't give two fucks about whether Neji can block bender's chi or not. If his DC is should be more than enough to kill Avatar characters.

Would equivalence really equate rocks that a earth bender controls to the 'earth' that a ninja just spewed out of his mouth?



> Simple katons, suitons, dotons, etc., *which are just supposed to create normal fire, water, and earth*? Bending should work just fine on those in principle.



What gave you this idea? Clear distinctions are made when a character is utilizing a real element rather than a chakra imitation (Kirin being a good example).


----------



## Ashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Saitou can u provide me a scan where It states that nature manipulation isn't the same as the real thing?


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Saitou can u provide me a scan where It states that nature manipulation isn't the same as the real thing?



Sure, give me a sec to go dig through the entire manga.


----------



## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> So Zuko can bend Madara's fire techniques?



He could _try_...but he would fail horribly because he's not powerful enough. 



Saitomaru said:


> See, you're confused. Ninjutsu doesn't create true elements. They are chakra molded to imitate an element. It is made explicitly clear when a jutsu is manipulating a true element and not just chakra (Kirin is true lightning). My question wasn't whether equivalence would allow benders to manipulate elements in Naruto. My question was what actually proves/states that a bender could control fire chakra (for example)? And I honestly don't give two fucks about whether Neji can block bender's chi or not. If his DC is should be more than enough to kill Avatar characters.
> 
> Would equivalence really equate rocks that a earth bender controls to the 'earth' that a ninja just spewed out of his mouth?
> 
> What gave you this idea? Clear distinctions are made when a character is utilizing a real element rather than a chakra imitation (Kirin being a good example).



I get how that might work for jutsus that create an impermanent energy (katons and raitons).  But suitons and dotons?  They create actual physical objects.  They stay around without the ninja continuously pumping chakra to sustain it.  They may have been created with chakra, but the end result really can't be anything else besides earth or water.

Looking at Sasuke's use of Kirin, I'm not seeing it stated anywhere that Kirin is "real" while other jutsus are not really whatever element they are.



The distinctions are that the source of energy that powers the technique comes is nature, not the ninja himself, and that it's on a higher _scale_ than what ninja are normally capable of.  It's not fundamentally different in its mechanics, it's just way bigger and better than a normal jutsu.


----------



## Ashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Sure, give me a sec to go dig through the entire manga.



Or visit the wiki and look for sources?


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Or visit the wiki and look for sources?



Hadn't thought about that...


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> He could _try_...but he would fail horribly because he's not powerful enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As it turns out nothing either way is stated (not that I saw anyway). These are the closest things we get to them saying something-

Chidori: Kakashi says 'you physically recompose your chakra to resemble electricity'  which may suggest that it isn't actually electricity, but that could be up for debate.

Kirin: Sasuke says that '[the] jutsu's power source is lightning from heaven itself' which means nothing really. Zetsu does seem suprised by the fact that Sasuke is controlling lightning. But again, this means little.

After seeing this I went looking for something that suggests the opposite of what I was saying but yet again there was nothing.

I remember Deidara noting that Gaara's sand was different from regular desert sand because of chakra or some shit. But that isn't helpful.

So what is the default assumption? That the elements they use/produce are normal unless there is evidence to the contrary? Does it being created by chakra and spewed out of their mouths matter?


----------



## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> As it turns out nothing either way is stated (not that I saw anyway). These are the closest things we get to them saying something-
> 
> Chidori: Kakashi says 'you physically recompose your chakra to resemble electricity'  which may suggest that it isn't actually electricity, but that could be up for debate.
> 
> ...



The saying goes, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck".  I don't think it matters that the elements are created from chakra (no more so than firebending is created from energy within the firebender), and I definitely don't think it matters that it's spewed from their mouths.  What matters is the end result.  For suitons and dotons, the end result simply can't be chakra, it's plainly actual physical water and earth.  Katons and raitons are a little more unclear.  The key I guess lies in what "resembles"means.  Does it mean that the chakra is behaving like fire and electricity?  If so, the same things that influence fire and electricity should influence them.  What else could it mean?  That chidori just looks like electricity?  There would be no practical point to that.  Why take on the appearance of electricity without any of the properties of electricity?

Katons seem more clear to me on this than chidori, because katons plainly behave like fire in practice, burning and doing damage through heat.  Chidori is more iffy because it's supposed to do its damage by cutting, which is not a practical property of electricity.  A way to explain that might be the that heat the chidori's electricity creates is so intense that it essentially acts like a cutting torch, but that's just a guess.


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> The saying goes, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck".  I don't think it matters that the elements are created from chakra (no more so than firebending is created from energy within the firebender), and I definitely don't think it matters that it's spewed from their mouths.



I could have sworn that Firebending requires heat of some sort. Wasn't that why those firebender prison-things had refrigerated rooms?



> What matters is the end result.  For suitons and dotons, the end result simply can't be chakra, it's plainly actual physical water and earth.  Katons and raitons are a little more unclear.  The key I guess lies in what "resembles"means.  Does it mean that the chakra is behaving like fire and electricity?  If so, the same things that influence fire and electricity should influence them.  What else could it mean?  That chidori just looks like electricity?  There would be no practical point to that.  Why take on the appearance of electricity without any of the properties of electricity?



Maybe it's just the rule of cool... In all seriousness, base chidori (in part 1) doesn't do anything (to my knowledge) that is usually attributed to electricity. It really just makes the user's hand into a spear.



> Katons seem more clear to me on this than chidori, because katons plainly behave like fire in practice, burning and doing damage through heat.  Chidori is more iffy because it's supposed to do its damage by cutting, which is not a practical property of electricity.  A way to explain that might be the that heat the chidori's electricity creates is so intense that it essentially acts like a cutting torch, but that's just a guess.



That explanation doesn't work because Chidori doesn't seem to cauterize the wound.


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## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> I could have sworn that Firebending requires heat of some sort. Wasn't that why those firebender prison-things had refrigerated rooms?



Cold temperatures certainly inhibit firebending, but the firebender is not drawing on ambient heat or anything like that.



> Maybe it's just the rule of cool... In all seriousness, base chidori (in part 1) doesn't do anything (to my knowledge) that is usually attributed to electricity. It really just makes the user's hand into a spear.



That's a moot point, because it is connected to electricity in part 2.  It's not like chidori suddenly started acting like electricity the moment Kakashi explained it that way; it's the same technique throughout.



> That explanation doesn't work because Chidori doesn't seem to cauterize the wound.



Fair point.


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## Mambo (Sep 2, 2013)

Poor oman and fujita.

The opponents keep saying equivalent rule but they also keep saying teh chakra can't be equalized with teh bender's chi.


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## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

mambo said:


> Poor oman and fujita.
> 
> The opponents keep saying equivalent rule but they also keep saying teh chakra can't be equalized with teh bender's chi.



Note that I'm not actually claiming that chakra can't be equalized with chi.  Whenever I bring that up it's to make a point by contrasting how that's taken for granted against what they're claiming about chakra-created elements not falling under equivalence.  I do think that chakra and chi fall under the equivalence rule.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> Cold temperatures certainly inhibit firebending, but the firebender is not drawing on ambient heat or anything like that.



That makes sense.



> That's a moot point, because it is connected to electricity in part 2.  It's not like chidori suddenly started acting like electricity the moment Kakashi explained it that way; it's the same technique throughout.



Actually, P2 IS when it suddenly start's exhibiting all the electrical properties (unless it did in P2 and I'm forgetting something). P2 Sasuke shows off all his fancy different versions of Chidori (he created them apparently). Chidori Nagashi /. And that's the only version of chidori that I can remember behaving like electricity in any way. All the other variants are just cutting/piercing tools.



> Fair point.


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## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Actually, P2 IS when it suddenly start's exhibiting all the electrical properties (unless it did in P2 and I'm forgetting something). P2 Sasuke shows off all his fancy different versions of Chidori (he created them apparently). Chidori Nagashi /. And that's the only version of chidori that I can remember behaving like electricity in any way. All the other variants are just cutting/piercing tools.



I know that, but Kakashi was not talking about any variants of chidori.  He was talking about chidori, making no distinction from what Sasuke had been using since part 1.  Thus the explanation applies to all uses of regular chidori.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> I know that, but Kakashi was not talking about any variants of chidori.  He was talking about chidori, making no distinction from what Sasuke had been using since part 1.  Thus the explanation applies to all uses of regular chidori.



Wait, are you arguing that Chidori is electrical or isn't? And Kakashi's explanation wouldn't necessarily apply to any chidori or raikiri technique other than the one's he invented. I don't remember Sasuke giving an proper explanation for his variations either.


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## Wan (Sep 2, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Wait, are you arguing that Chidori is electrical or isn't? And Kakashi's explanation wouldn't necessarily apply to any chidori or raikiri technique other than the one's he invented. I don't remember Sasuke giving an proper explanation for his variations either.



After seeing the scan you posted with Kakashi describing Chidori to Naruto, I'd argue that it is electrical.  And you may be right that it would only apply to the technique Kakashi created, but that's another moot point because the Chidori technique Sasuke uses in part 1 _is_ the one that Kakashi invented.


*Spoiler*: __ 







]


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## Ashi (Sep 2, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> That makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, P2 IS when it suddenly start's exhibiting all the electrical properties (unless it did in P2 and I'm forgetting something). P2 Sasuke shows off all his fancy different versions of Chidori (he created them apparently). Chidori Nagashi /. And that's the only version of chidori that I can remember behaving like electricity in any way. All the other variants are just cutting/piercing tools.




Actually when he uses chidori blade on his kusanagi it numbed yamatos shoulder and he shocked bee with it


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## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

Oman said:


> After seeing the scan you posted with Kakashi describing Chidori to Naruto, I'd argue that it is electrical.  And you may be right that it would only apply to the technique Kakashi created, but that's another moot point because the Chidori technique Sasuke uses in part 1 _is_ the one that Kakashi invented.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I know, just figured I should point it out. And what are those supposed to be showing me?



TensaXZangetsu said:


> Actually when he uses chidori blade on his kusanagi it numbed yamatos shoulder and he shocked bee with it



I did say 'that I can remember'


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## AgentAAA (Sep 2, 2013)

if I remember correctly, from what I know of chidori, it does happen to be lightning element, but it still does produce a cutting force. I don't think it should count as bendable anymore than a lightning-enhanced kunai, in that the glow also doesn't seem to leave the user's arm until after they've finished the jutsu - it's more or less a consistent amp rather than a sudden release, so to speak, though this is all conjecture based on findings.
In any case, either way, lightning redirection requires time, a certain stance, and effort, and I don't know if it'd come out the other end in the same way it does in avatar, given it works nothing like lightning normally does as a technique.
And damn, I hate how often this dome makes me argue in Naruto's favor. Would much prefer there be more avatar calcs so I could talk about how Toph crushes Saucegay with giant boulders.


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## Xam (Sep 2, 2013)

This thread getting over a 100 replies.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 2, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> if I remember correctly, from what I know of chidori, it does happen to be lightning element, but it still does produce a cutting force. I don't think it should count as bendable anymore than a lightning-enhanced kunai, in that the glow also doesn't seem to leave the user's arm until after they've finished the jutsu - it's more or less a consistent amp rather than a sudden release, so to speak, though this is all conjecture based on findings.
> In any case, either way, lightning redirection requires time, a certain stance, and effort, and I don't know if it'd come out the other end in the same way it does in avatar, given it works nothing like lightning normally does as a technique.
> And damn,* I hate how often this dome makes me argue in Naruto's favor.* Would much prefer there be more avatar calcs so I could talk about how Toph crushes Saucegay with giant boulders.



^This. I don't even like the series yet often find myself the one defending it.


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## Mambo (Sep 2, 2013)

Defending naruto is okay, but raikiri not actual electricity argument actually.... weird

Next someone will make Ace vs every uchiha which they restricted only using katon and ace will win because real fire >> pseudo fire. Yes, even madara


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## Saitomaru (Sep 3, 2013)

mambo said:


> Defending naruto is okay, but raikiri not actual electricity argument actually.... weird



What's wrong with that argument? As I showed, little is said definitively either way. And some of what is said could be taken to mean it _isn't_ electricity. Also, we were talking about chidori, not sure if that matters since I didn't actually bother looking up raikiri.


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## Wan (Sep 3, 2013)

Raikiri is just another name for chidori.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 3, 2013)

Raikiri's considered Kakashi's version and more powerful, actually, if I call correctly, and is also an honorary title due to Kakashi splitting a bolt of lightning with it. Wiki considers it seperate and it both looks different and seems more powerful than Sasuke's chidori in part 1. Raikiri's merely a much more potent Chidori and basically acts the same, though.


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## Kage no Yume (Sep 3, 2013)

I doubt even Storm could manipulate chidori.  It's not actually electricity, it's chakra with the properties of lightning, one of which is a cutting/piercing nature in the Naruto verse.

Just like wind-nature chakra is practically nothing like wind, and more just energy with a cutting property.

Further enforcing these arguments, it was recently proven that ninjutsu =/= nature by Obito being able to nullify chakra based attacks, but not sennin/nature energy related attacks.


Even buying the lightning chakra = bendable argument, the only attacks that would be bendable would be those that actually flow.  You know, since the electricity flowing is a requirement before a bender can redirect it.  It flowed out of Azula, into Iroh, and out of his other hand.  The whole point of chidori is that it doesn't flow: it's a concentrated mass of chakra that's made for piercing.


Anyways, should have made speed equal to even out the durability gap and prevent speed blitzing.  As it is, Naruto and Sasuke should be able to take this.


Also, the Chidori/Raikiri difference comes about from the first databook.  Chidori was listed as a separate jutsu with a different rank than raikiri.  This is probably just a difference in skill/polish though, not an actual difference between the techniques.  Just like the difference between Lee's Leaf Whirlwind Kick and Gai's Leaf Strong Whirlwind Kick.  Essentially the same technique, with different ranks and levels of strength.


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## Wan (Sep 4, 2013)

If it has the properties of electricity, then by definition it has electrical flow, whether or not that's how it does damage.  Kakashi even talks about "discharging" it.



I don't think the ninjutsu/senjutsu distinction makes a difference.  Senjutsu is a different source but it can be used to make the same things as chakra.  The attack that Naruto makes with senjutsu to get through Obito's negation defense is a mere rasengan:



And the explanation for why the attack gets through to Obito doesn't say anything along the lines that elements created by ninjutsu are somehow less "real", it just says attacks made with senjutsu get through because the Juubi uses something like senjutsu as well.



The difference seems to be just how the techniques are created and by what energy, but no particular attribute of the end result.

Here's where Gai says chidori is also known as raikiri, btw.


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## Kage no Yume (Sep 4, 2013)

Oman said:


> If it has the properties of electricity, then by definition it has electrical flow, whether or not that's how it does damage.  Kakashi even talks about "discharging" it.



I didn't know one of electricity's main properties was hardness/sharpness :amazed.

Anyways, he's talking about elemental chakra use in general (since that's what he's explaining to Naruto).  You use physical recomposition to change the chakra's nature (into lightning, fire, water, earth, or wind), and spacial recomposition to change how the chakra is discharged (a piercing blade, a fireball, a deadly razor-wind, a wall of earth, a dragon of water, etc).  It's the same for *all* elemental jutsu.  This is the exact same thing Naruto must learn to do with wind chakra.  So unless earth, fire, wind, and water also has an electrical flow, no.

While a bender might be able to channel something like Chidori Nagashi (if they can get it to hit only one hand and not take the full force on their entire body), a technique literally shaped to *not* flow and to be solid is not going to flow.



> I don't think the ninjutsu/senjutsu distinction makes a difference.  Senjutsu is a different source but it can be used to make the same things as chakra.  The attack that Naruto makes with senjutsu to get through Obito's negation defense is a mere rasengan:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It shows that chakra, including elemental chakra, is not the same as natural attacks.

Of course, this should have already been obvious by the fact that natural lightning cannot be formed into a blade in order to pierce hard objects.  Or into a sword.  Or into multiple needles that don't discharge into the earth after hitting a target.



> Here's where Gai says chidori is also known as raikiri, btw.



And this matters because?  I already explained the relationship of the two jutsu and why some people call them different when they're essentially the same.


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## Wan (Sep 4, 2013)

Kage no Yume said:


> I didn't know one of electricity's main properties was hardness/sharpness :amazed.
> 
> Anyways, he's talking about elemental chakra use in general (since that's what he's explaining to Naruto).  You use physical recomposition to change the chakra's nature (into lightning, fire, water, earth, or wind), and spacial recomposition to change how the chakra is discharged (a piercing blade, a fireball, a deadly razor-wind, a wall of earth, a dragon of water, etc).  It's the same for *all* elemental jutsu.  This is the exact same thing Naruto must learn to do with wind chakra.  So unless earth, fire, wind, and water also has an electrical flow, no.
> 
> While a bender might be able to channel something like Chidori Nagashi (if they can get it to hit only one hand and not take the full force on their entire body), a technique literally shaped to *not* flow and to be solid is not going to flow.



While the ninja may use the elemental jutsu to accomplish a certain task, it's common sense to think that the elemental jutsu has the properties of the thing that it's supposed to take the nature of.

We do know chidori has electrical flow.  Sasuke used it to electrocute B  without impaling him.





> It shows that chakra, including elemental chakra, is not the same as natural attacks.
> 
> Of course, this should have already been obvious by the fact that natural lightning cannot be formed into a blade in order to pierce hard objects.  Or into a sword.  Or into multiple needles that don't discharge into the earth after hitting a target.



Why does it even matter if it's called "natural"?  Electricity generated at a coal power plant is not "natural", does that mean it's somehow not real electricity as opposed to "natural" lightning?  What matters is how it works and the end result.


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## Kage no Yume (Sep 5, 2013)

Oman said:


> While the ninja may use the elemental jutsu to accomplish a certain task, it's common sense to think that the elemental jutsu has the properties of the thing that it's supposed to take the nature of.



Again, hardness/sharpness is a common property of lightning?



> We do know chidori has electrical flow.  Sasuke used it to electrocute B  without impaling him.



I did forget about that.  As well as Sasuke using it on himself to nullify Deidara's C4 (although that was still due to the whole elemental chakra weakness thing).

But even if we make lightning nature chakra equivalent to regular lightning (which it isn't, it may have those properties, but it's still spiritual energy), that still means they'd have to intercept chidori with their hand, since that's how lightning bending works.  And speed is not equalized.

EDIT:  Also, chidori only flows after it pierces the target, or when its user stops using its blade shaped spatial composition.  Otherwise, it would just be a shocking attack, not an all piercing blade.  It's a blade first, and a shocking attack second, if at all, since it's not always used that way (Haku, Gaara, Kakuzu, water tank, etc.).



> Why does it even matter if it's called "natural"?  Electricity generated at a coal power plant is not "natural", does that mean it's somehow not real electricity as opposed to "natural" lightning?  What matters is how it works and the end result.



Um, yes it is.  There's only one kind of electricity in our world.  We don't have magic or chakra here.

And again, the end result _is_ different.  Lightning nature chakra = piercing attack.  Wind nature chakra = cutting attack.  Water nature chakra + Fire nature chakra = corrosive vapors. Earth + Fire + Wind = atomization.


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## Stermor (Sep 5, 2013)

DHxCohaco said:


> i'm not sure about genin naruto getting the scaling but kyuubi chakra naruto was blitzing haku who gets the mach 14 scaling and sasuke gets the scaling



why does haku get mach 14 scaling ? also wasn't shuriken speed based on his fight against naruto?? who beat him?? naruto should have it..


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 5, 2013)

This still going on?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 5, 2013)

Gaara gets his own Mach 14 speed because his arms move faster than his Shuriken.

EoP1 Naruto & Sasuke>That Gaara.


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## SunRise (Sep 6, 2013)

Actually Aang and Zuko massively faster than Nardo and Sasuke.  

Aang probably have city block dc in base (I'll post feat if you want- fragmented rock structure being send flying by Combustion man) and city-Island+ level in Avatar state and Zuko is building buster. They both should at least have building level durablity in base since Aang's air bending sits at this level (casually fragments rocks with his airbending and his attacks actually sucks in terms of defeating not fodders right off the bat).


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## Kage no Yume (Sep 7, 2013)

VioletHood said:


> Actually Aang and Zuko massively faster than Nardo and Sasuke.
> 
> Aang probably have city block dc in base (I'll post feat if you want- fragmented rock structure being send flying by Combustion man) and city-Island+ level in Avatar state and Zuko is building buster. They both should at least have building level durablity in base since Aang's air bending sits at this level (casually fragments rocks with his airbending and his attacks actually sucks in terms of defeating not fodders right off the bat).



And yet they can barely keep up with Combustion Man's beam, which moves at the speed of a thrown baseball (around 90 mph).

Edit:  And congratulations on beating rockonyx when it comes to ridiculous calcs.


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## Wan (Sep 8, 2013)

Zuko has .075 millisecond reaction time: .  So what was that about not being able to catch chidori? 

Edit: for comparison, the calc on Gaara's sand shuriken (), which I'm told was reworked to Mach 14, gives Naruto a reaction time of .39 milliseconds. (unless I'm misunderstanding that calc)


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## Regicide (Sep 8, 2013)

> The leader of a bolt of lightning is 220,000 kmh, or 60 KM/s


Oh boy, here we go.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 8, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Oh boy, here we go.



^My thoughts exactly.


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## Cromer (Sep 8, 2013)

Zuko vs pre-demon Negi Springfield, incoming


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## DHxCohaco (Sep 8, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> ^My thoughts exactly.



same here                            .


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## xlab3000 (Sep 8, 2013)

Naruto team stomps.


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