# Zoro vs Sanji



## ItsMeYoshi (Aug 31, 2013)

Location: Long Ring Long Island
Mindset: fight to kill
Distance:25 meters
Knowledge:Manga

_*ok, we all know Zoro is stronger.  I just want to know the general conscience on how close people think they are in strength & what amount of difficulty can Sanji give Zoro.*_


----------



## trance (Aug 31, 2013)

High difficulty.


----------



## RF (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro high difficulty.


----------



## Shanks (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro high...swordsmen generally don't go to extreme diff because an accurate critical hit could end a battle.


----------



## Captain Altintop (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro at least  very high to extreme diff.

Only high diff seems dumb.


----------



## trance (Aug 31, 2013)

Inb4 Zoro wankers say low difficulty. :sanji


----------



## Urouge (Aug 31, 2013)

didnt Change my stance. Zoro still win it with extreme diff. They're extremely close.


----------



## Coruscation (Aug 31, 2013)

Extreme difficulty means to me that two people are practically trivially close in power. It's the kind of fight that can virtually go either way because the combatants are just -that- closely matched. Aokiji vs. Akainu, Lucci vs. Luffy, Dorry vs. Brogy, Roger vs. Whitebeard etc. I don't see any reason to see Zoro and Sanji like that. Extreme difficulty is a term reserved for only the most extreme cases hence the name.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Aug 31, 2013)

Extreme. They are almost equal.


----------



## Sanji (Aug 31, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Extreme difficulty means to me that two people are practically trivially close in power. I don't see any reason to see Zoro and Sanji like that.



Some people (myself included) believe they ARE that close in power.

Zoro extreme diff.


----------



## ItsMeYoshi (Aug 31, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Extreme difficulty means to me that two people are practically trivially close in power. It's the kind of fight that can virtually go either way because the combatants are just -that- closely matched. Aokiji vs. Akainu, Lucci vs. Luffy, Dorry vs. Brogy, Roger vs. Whitebeard etc. I don't see any reason to see Zoro and Sanji like that. Extreme difficulty is a term reserved for only the most extreme cases hence the name.



Zoro feats aren't that superior to Sanji's. They counter each well.
pretty sure extreme diff can very a bit....like with any difficulty.

why can't Zoro win every time...but still be seriously injured & extremely exhausted to the point where he won't be able to fight _anyone_ for at least a whole day? or at least not able to just walk away from the fight as soon as it ends?


----------



## Orca (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro ext diff


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro Extreme.


----------



## 2Broken (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro high difficulty.


----------



## Coruscation (Aug 31, 2013)

> why can't Zoro win every time...but still be seriously injured & extremely exhausted to the point where he won't be able to fight anyone for at least a whole day? or at least not able to just walk away from the fight as soon as it ends?



Maybe that's the case. I just don't see any reason to believe it is. Take Zoro vs. Daz Bones for example. It was always clear to me that Daz was a more powerful enemy than Sanji would have been yet Zoro though he passed out temporarily was up and fighting shortly afterwards. That is still an extreme difficulty fight but it was also the kind of battle that could have gone either way. I don't see any reason to just blindly accept this notion that practically every enemy Zoro fights is weaker than his own next best crewmate. Zoro's role on the crew is more than being practically identical to Sanji except he can't cook or think like Sanji does. Zoro has always been made to stand out the most after Luffy and I don't see any reason to accept the notion that it's just a panel time thing that isn't mean to say anything about Zoro's exceptional status. Zoro fights stronger enemies, is pushed further, trains more, gains more power-ups, has more responsibility on the crew and has a job solely about fighting whereas Sanji brings the benefits of cooking and being the guy who thinks about stuff that the two pure muscle brutes who are only good at fighting don't. Zoro has a role on the crew that no one else could fill like he does and it's because of his position as first mate and second strongest. That job description logically includes being able to take on enemies that would be too much for Sanji. All things accounted for it simply makes more sense that Zoro is stronger by an amount that is not by any means trivial and nothing in the manga goes against it.

I described this since you inquired about it, I don't really want to have the millionth argument about it. There are some Sanji fans who apparently feel that anything but them being virtually as close as it's possible to be in power is fanboyish and insulting to Sanji but I hope you're not one of those and can see the merits behind the position that Sanji isn't a perpetual 99 to Zoro's 100.


----------



## Benn Beckman (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro High Diff. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Alaude (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro would probably win high diff.


----------



## Vengeance (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro high - very high difficulty. Sanji is close, but not close enough for extreme difficulty.


----------



## Marik Swift (Aug 31, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Extreme difficulty means to me that two people are practically trivially close in power. It's the kind of fight that can virtually go either way because the combatants are just -that- closely matched. Aokiji vs. Akainu, Lucci vs. Luffy, Dorry vs. Brogy, Roger vs. Whitebeard etc. I don't see any reason to see Zoro and Sanji like that. Extreme difficulty is a term reserved for only the most extreme cases hence the name.





Coruscation said:


> Maybe that's the case. I just don't see any reason to believe it is. Take Zoro vs. Daz Bones for example. It was always clear to me that Daz was a more powerful enemy than Sanji would have been yet Zoro though he passed out temporarily was up and fighting shortly afterwards. That is still an extreme difficulty fight but it was also the kind of battle that could have gone either way. I don't see any reason to just blindly accept this notion that practically every enemy Zoro fights is weaker than his own next best crewmate. Zoro's role on the crew is more than being practically identical to Sanji except he can't cook or think like Sanji does. Zoro has always been made to stand out the most after Luffy and I don't see any reason to accept the notion that it's just a panel time thing that isn't mean to say anything about Zoro's exceptional status. Zoro fights stronger enemies, is pushed further, trains more, gains more power-ups, has more responsibility on the crew and has a job solely about fighting whereas Sanji brings the benefits of cooking and being the guy who thinks about stuff that the two pure muscle brutes who are only good at fighting don't. Zoro has a role on the crew that no one else could fill like he does and it's because of his position as first mate and second strongest. That job description logically includes being able to take on enemies that would be too much for Sanji. All things accounted for it simply makes more sense that Zoro is stronger by an amount that is not by any means trivial and nothing in the manga goes against it.
> 
> I described this since you inquired about it, I don't really want to have the millionth argument about it. There are some Sanji fans who apparently feel that anything but them being virtually as close as it's possible to be in power is fanboyish and insulting to Sanji but I hope you're not one of those and can see the merits behind the position that Sanji isn't a perpetual 99 to Zoro's 100.



+rep... again

Anyway, Zoro high dif. Hate to play into this trap of yet another Luffy, Zoro and Sanji comparison thread, but it has always has been: Luffy>=Zoro>Sanji, for the reasons stated by Coru (which I'm personally tired of bringing up - and by manga feats.

>= is a very small, almost unnoticeable gap, restricted for ext dif.
> is for small, but noticeable gaps, used for high dif.​


----------



## Firo (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro High Diff.


----------



## Imagine (Aug 31, 2013)

ItsMeYoshi said:


> _*ok, we all know Zoro is stronger.*_


Then there is no reason for this thread.


----------



## convict (Aug 31, 2013)

Frankiest said:


> Zoro High Diff. Nothing more, nothing less.



I'm going with this.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 31, 2013)

Imagine said:


> Then there is no reason for this thread.



No need to be rude Imagine


----------



## Beast (Aug 31, 2013)

They are very close, high diff or extreme diff, which ever you stand. There states are almost equal in general. Zoro high diff.

These types of threads shouldn't be made till we have solid/ comparable feats from the two.


----------



## ItsMeYoshi (Aug 31, 2013)

Imagine said:


> Then there is no reason for this thread.



so therefore there is no reason for this post.


----------



## Sayonara (Aug 31, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Extreme difficulty means to me that two people are practically trivially close in power. It's the kind of fight that can virtually go either way because the combatants are just -that- closely matched. Aokiji vs. Akainu, Lucci vs. Luffy, Dorry vs. Brogy, Roger vs. Whitebeard etc. I don't see any reason to see Zoro and Sanji like that. Extreme difficulty is a term reserved for only the most extreme cases hence the name.



This. I feel extreme difficulty is used far too often in battles in general. In this case I say high difficulty , but they are in same ball park so while dont agree I dont hugely oppose those who assume its extreme.


----------



## Typhon (Aug 31, 2013)

I think Sanji gives Zoro  extreme as that's reserved for people very close to eachother, which I view Zoro and Sanji as. They have comparable feats, have been paired the entire manga, and while Zoro may fight the tougher enemies, Sanji has an easier time with his.


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro high difficulty

I think the match up is in Zoro's favor


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 31, 2013)

^True the match-up is in Zoro's favor cause Swords are Op(JK). 

But i think Sanjis superior Mobility, Speed, and CoO would make it so he does not need to directly clash with Zoro's swords most of the time. When he does the after mentioned things should be able to let sanji reflect the blade side of his swords away(depending on the attack of course).


----------



## Thebest1 (Aug 31, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Extreme difficulty means to me that two people are practically trivially close in power. It's the kind of fight that can virtually go either way because the combatants are just -that- closely matched. Aokiji vs. Akainu, Lucci vs. Luffy, Dorry vs. Brogy, Roger vs. Whitebeard etc. I don't see any reason to see Zoro and Sanji like that. Extreme difficulty is a term reserved for only the most extreme cases hence the name.


I was curious what difficulty do you think Zoro would give Luffy then?


----------



## Captain Altintop (Aug 31, 2013)

Sanj is a freakin' beast. Only using his feets / legs, no DF, no weapons, no fists. And yet he is still few % below Zoro. 

very high to extreme diff is realistic. Zoro would be fucked up pretty bad.


----------



## Slenderman (Aug 31, 2013)

I voted extreme difficullty. I wonder who voted mid diff? (Jk I know it's ZFG).


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro extreme difficulty.


----------



## Tray (Aug 31, 2013)

Zoro high diffs


----------



## ItsMeYoshi (Sep 1, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> I described this since you inquired about it, I don't really want to have the millionth argument about it. There are some Sanji fans who apparently feel that anything but them being virtually as close as it's possible to be in power is fanboyish and insulting to Sanji but I hope you're not one of those and can see the merits behind the position that Sanji isn't a perpetual 99 to Zoro's 100.



if say Zoro is 100....where would you put Sanji? 85?


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 1, 2013)

If Luffy beat Zoro in extreme diff then Zoro beat Sanji in extreme diff.
OR
If Luffy beat Zoro in high diff then Zoro beat Sanji in high diff.


----------



## trance (Sep 1, 2013)

Zoro is to Sanji what Luffy is to Zoro.


----------



## TrolonoaZoro (Sep 1, 2013)

It depends on Zoro's mindset. 
Zoro is substantially higher than Sanji. *both in feat and hype* This is not up for debate, if you don't think this is the case then you're either being a delusional fanboy, lying or just really fucking stupid. Which is actually really sad because why would you care which one is higher in battle? 

Anyways you need to break it in two, innate combat abilities and special techniques. 
Zoro is already above Sanji when it comes innate combat abilities and provided he doesn't use a special technique it would be a high difficulty fight. 
However if Zoro does use a special technique. Sanji who lacks severely on this department would have absolutely no way to counter attack, all his options are out of the table and thus it would be mid difficulty.
The same way Don could tango with Luffy but once Luffy pulled out the big guns he took care of him really quickly. Or Luffy vs Blueno. Same deal.


----------



## Thebest1 (Sep 1, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> It depends on Zoro's mindset.
> Zoro is substantially higher than Sanji. *both in feat and hype* This is not up for debate, if you don't think this is the case then you're either being a delusional fanboy, lying or just really fucking stupid. Which is actually really sad because why would you care which one is higher in battle?
> 
> Anyways you need to break it in two, innate combat abilities and special techniques.
> ...


LOL your saying that if someone doesnt believe Zoro is substantially stronger than Sanji they are being a delusional fanboy and then state Zoro would mid-diff due to lack of special techniques from Sanji???????
No just no. We have already seen Hell Memories from Sanji and he hasnt even showed the variations of subset techniques under it due to the fact that he one-shotted that blow fish. I personally believe that throughout the story Luffy Zoro and Sanji have been portrayed in equal distance in strength from each other ie. If Luffy beats Zoro high diff then Zoro beats Sanji high diff or if Luffy beats Zoro extreme diff then Zoro beats Sanji extreme diff.. There is no way that the crewmate that has been portrayed soo often with a brother/rival relationship as ZOro would lose mid-diff..Believing that is wanking in my opinion.


----------



## hokageyonkou (Sep 1, 2013)

Zoro uses the hilt of his sword and sanji faints.


----------



## Quuon (Sep 1, 2013)

I'm leaning more towards extreme difficulty.


----------



## Freechoice (Sep 1, 2013)

Once again, like tiers, this comes down to what one merits to be high or extreme difficulty. 

I voted high as I consider extreme difficulty as Zoro being on the verge of death after beating Sanji, which he would not be.


----------



## trance (Sep 1, 2013)

> Once again, like tiers, this comes down to *what one merits to be high or extreme difficulty.*



These are my definitions of the difficulties...


*No difficulty*- One is in total control of the fight and can defeat their opponent anytime they want. AKA, a stomp. 

 Ex. Luffy vs. Bellamy, Kuzan vs. pre-TS Luffy.


*Low difficulty*- When one faces a _small_ amount of difficulty from the opposition and might receive a light injury but is in no trouble of losing.

Ex. Magellan vs. Ivankov, Luffy vs. Hody


*Mid difficulty*- When one faces a reasonable threat that is able to inflict moderate damage to them.

Ex. EL base Luffy vs. Blueno


*High difficulty*- When one faces someone who is fairly close to their level and are able to match for a good deal of time.

Ex. Luffy vs. Arlong, Zoro vs. Kaku


*Extreme difficulty*- When two individuals are so close to each other in strength, the difference is nearly non-existent. Typically a life or death battle.

Ex. Luffy vs. Lucci, Kuzan vs. Sakazuki


----------



## Marik Swift (Sep 1, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> These are my definitions of the difficulties...
> 
> 
> *No difficulty*- One is in total control of the fight and can defeat their opponent anytime they want. AKA, a stomp.
> ...



This is *exactly* how I see it just the same. Except most would say Zoro vs Kaku was more along the lines of mid dif.​


----------



## Luis209 (Sep 1, 2013)

Zoro vs Kaku was definetly high diff but I don't see Luffy vs Arlong high diff, but mid. Luffy was goofing around all the time in the fight, when he got serious he beat Arlong win one big move but still got wounded. The rest I agree definetly.


----------



## marco55656 (Sep 2, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> These are my definitions of the difficulties...
> 
> 
> *No difficulty*- One is in total control of the fight and can defeat their opponent anytime they want. AKA, a stomp.
> ...



Sanji vs zoro would be wayyyyy closer to extreme than high diff judging by these.


----------



## Jin22 (Sep 3, 2013)

This Zoro/Sanji thing won't ever end. Though I can understand the trivial curiousity between fanbases. Sanji is powerful, yet him against Zoro is just a bad match-up in favor of Zoro. He would hold his own in a high-difficulty battle. But not to the extreme


----------



## Mike S (Sep 4, 2013)

If I had said Sanji would give Zoro extreme difficulty when I first joined this forum, I would have gotten negged by PoPs lol. Oh how I miss the early days.

Anyway Sanji is not pushing Zoro to the brink of death. Zoro wins High difficulty. Also Luffy would have a harder time with Zoro than Zoro would have with Sanji. 

I know it's hard to believe because of my name(and because they're uncommon in this forum) but all of this is coming from an unbiased Zoro fan. Check my history.


----------



## DeathPony (Sep 4, 2013)

^ Whatever wanker, anyways Extreme Difficulty by portrayal


----------



## P3IN (Sep 4, 2013)

Almost equal, zoro high/extreme diff 

Inb4lowdiffposts


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Sep 4, 2013)

For now I'll say high, but could change to extreme depending on what Oda want's to do with the power dynamic post timeskip. 

Luffy has been hogging so much action time, that maybe Oda really thinks it's time for his main character to seperate from the other 2 monsters.

Also Sanji is so much better at other stuff than Zoro that there wouldn't be a balance to their characters if he was THAT close for me.


----------



## Laspes (Sep 4, 2013)

High difficulty.


----------



## Mike S (Sep 4, 2013)

DeathPony said:


> ^ Whatever wanker, anyways Extreme Difficulty by portrayal



So if you don't agree with Sanji being a 99 if Zoro's a 100, you're a wanker? The irony. Obviously your hatred for Zorotards, your love for Sanji, or the combination of both is making it difficult for you to accurately gauge strength in OP.

The gap between Zoro and Sanji is small but it's still big enough to squeeze in someone like Vergo. Zoro high difficulty.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 4, 2013)

I belive it is extreme difficulty and It might take even days.
Why ?
1.
The gap between Roger and Mihawk is larger than the gap between Mihawk and Kizaru/Marco.
2.
Manga Portrayal
3.
I dont see why Sanji cant last days just like in the Jimbei-Ace fight.


----------



## DeathPony (Sep 5, 2013)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> So if you don't agree with Sanji being a 99 if Zoro's a 100, you're a wanker? The irony. Obviously your hatred for Zorotards, your love for Sanji, or the combination of both is making it difficult for you to accurately gauge strength in OP.
> 
> The gap between Zoro and Sanji is small but it's still big enough to squeeze in someone like Vergo. Zoro high difficulty.



Zoro and Sanji are rivals, Oda has portrayed them like that for 720 fucking chapters. Bend that and twist it to whatever suits for fanboyism...but they will forever be nigh-equal. Besides I don't hate Zoro but you sure must hate Sanji and the fact that he's right behind Zoro in strength burns ya'll. 

And LOL @ that last part. A small gap but big enough to fit someone like Vergo? Do you know how stupid you sound? Most people here believe Zoro would mid diff Vergo...that ain't a small gap fool


----------



## hokageyonkou (Sep 5, 2013)

Mid diff. High diff at best.


----------



## Rob (Sep 5, 2013)

Dupes gonna' dupe


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 5, 2013)

DeathPony said:


> Zoro and Sanji are rivals, Oda has portrayed them like that for 720 fucking chapters. Bend that and twist it to whatever suits for fanboyism...but they will forever be nigh-equal. Besides I don't hate Zoro but you sure must hate Sanji and the fact that he's right behind Zoro in strength burns ya'll.


They're not rivals because of strength. They're rivals because Zoro thinks Sanji's ideology is retarded, and Sanji thinks Zoro is lazy and dumb. I don't remember Sanji ever being compared to his captain either, though Zoro has more than once. Just throwing that out there. The gap isn't significant, but it's not insignificant either. 

Also, Sanji wasn't introduced until the 43rd chapter.



> And LOL @ that last part. A small gap but big enough to fit someone like Vergo? Do you know how stupid you sound? Most people here believe Zoro would mid diff Vergo...that ain't a small gap fool


Most people? ZFG doesn't count. Some people say he could high diff him based on the match up, and that's the closest to mid diff I've seen by a respectable poster.


----------



## DeathPony (Sep 5, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> They're not rivals because of strength. They're rivals because Zoro thinks Sanji's ideology is retarded, and Sanji thinks Zoro is lazy and dumb.


Complete and utter bullshit. Oda uses more than just their conflicting personalities to demonstrate their rivaly. Them stalemating each other all the time means more than you think but you're obviously gonna overlook that. 

If it was simply a matter of different opinions then Oda would simply have them arguing and nothing more...but no HE CHOOSES TO HAVE THEM ENGAGE HIS PHYSICAL COMBAT FOR A REASON.  Dont just pick and choose the things that sets off their rivalry.  





> I don't remember Sanji ever being compared to his captain either, though Zoro has more than once. Just throwing that out there.


 Fresh my memory please 



> Also, Sanji wasn't introduced until the 43rd chapter.


What the hell does that have to do with anything?  By that logic then Usopp should be third powerhouse


----------



## Sanji (Sep 5, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> They're not rivals because of strength.



Not completely true, on Little Garden they had a bet on who could sack the largest monster to cook (which I interpret as a test of strength) and argued about who destroyed the pacifista during their return to Sabaody. Not to mention they threaten to beat each other whenever they argue.

Even so, they have been shown facing adversaries with considerably close fighting ability since the near beginning of the manga. So I chalk them up around the same level giving Zoro a slight edge.



DeathPony said:


> What the hell does that have to do with anything?  By that logic then Usopp should be third powerhouse



He was referring to your argument that they have been rivals 720 chapters, thus the entire manga.


----------



## DeathPony (Sep 5, 2013)

Sanji and Zoro strength levels are near equal with Zoro only receive an edge because of his blades and his endurance. Their is nothing in the manga that suggest Zoro can dish out more power than Sanji. Every strength feat Zoro has done has been contested by Sanji.

Their rivalry has been compared to that of Dorry and Broggy both who stalemated each other for near a century. Their close relation is strength isn't something that you cannot deny simply because of your fanboyism. The Zoro fanbase main issue with Sanji is that he's able to compete with Zoro even though he doesn't work nearly as hard for his strength while Zoro is constantly shown training for it LOL...well get the fuck over it or take it up with Oda.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 5, 2013)

DeathPony said:


> Complete and utter bullshit. Oda uses more than just their conflicting personalities to demonstrate their rivaly. Them stalemating each other all the time means more than you think but you're obviously gonna overlook that.


Comedic relief doesn't demonstrate anything to me. By that logic, Nami is far stronger than she actually is.


> If it was simply a matter of different opinions then Oda would simply have them arguing and nothing more...but no HE CHOOSES TO HAVE THEM ENGAGE HIS PHYSICAL COMBAT FOR A REASON.  Dont just pick and choose the things that sets off their rivalry.


1. Arguments in OP often escalate to physical combat. 
2. Is it ever not comedic relief? I can't remember when it wasn't.



> (re)Fresh my memory please


Zoro's decision in W7 regarding Usopp.
Thriller Bark also heavily hinted this as well, though he was compared to Sanji to a lesser extent too. That one depends really on how you want to interpret it. 
Lastly, Zoro was the one who told Luffy to man the fuck up in PH.

Strength-wise, with a few exceptions, Zoro faces the second strongest enemy.
Of course, there was Whiskey Peak.
He also one shotted an enemy Luffy said was strong before roids... after he roided-up.
And after oneshotting base Hody, the arc villain.

That's just off the top of my head though. There is more.



> Sanji and Zoro strength levels are near equal with Zoro only receive an edge because of his blades and his endurance. Their is nothing in the manga that suggest Zoro can dish out more power than Sanji. Every strength feat Zoro has done has been contested by Sanji.


Zoro doesn't receive the edge because of his endurance or his blades. They just help his case, as they benefit him in the match up. Overall, he's stronger than Sanji. Zoro is undoubtedly physically stronger than Sanji, even if it's not by a significant margin. 

If you're saying that Sanji's legs are stronger than Zoro's then 



> Their rivalry has been compared to that of Dorry and Broggy both who stalemated each other for near a century. Their close relation is strength isn't something that you cannot deny simply because of your fanboyism. The Zoro fanbase main issue with Sanji is that he's able to compete with Zoro even though he doesn't work nearly as hard for his strength while Zoro is constantly shown training for it LOL...well get the fuck over it or take it up with Oda.


Fodder giants are supposed to be an argument here? They had a hunting competition, what part of that had to do with strength? Were they struggling to take down the dinos? No.

And I honestly don't care if Sanji can keep up with Zoro or not. You act like I hate Sanji, which isn't the case. I'm just not gonna deny the obvious, which you seem to like doing. 

Zoro is stronger, this isn't going to change, get over it.



CaveLemon said:


> Not completely true, on Little Garden they had a bet on who could sack the largest monster to cook (which I interpret as a test of strength) and argued about who destroyed the pacifista during their return to Sabaody. Not to mention they threaten to beat each other whenever they argue.


The monster thing is pretty arbitrary. It was more a contest of who could find the biggest one versus who was the strongest, considering they weren't having any difficulties with them iirc. The pacifista thing is also pretty arbitrary, considering it was so far below their respective levels it wouldn't matter who killed it anyway. 

Threats are just words. Croc is proof enough of this.


> Even so, they have been shown facing adversaries with considerably close fighting ability since the near beginning of the manga. So I chalk them up around the same level giving Zoro a slight edge.


Really? I haven't seen this at all, aside, of course, from Enies Lobby, it hasn't really been the case.


----------



## Sanji (Sep 5, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> Really? I haven't seen this at all, aside, of course, from Enies Lobby, it hasn't really been the case.



Enies Lobby, Arlong Park, and some could argue that Bon Clay was relatively close to Daz.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 5, 2013)

CaveLemon said:


> Enies Lobby, Arlong Park, and some could argue that Bon Clay was relatively close to Daz.


The first two are the exceptions I was speaking of in my response to DP.

Arlong Park had a heavily injured Zoro fighting a fodder that he didn't even get hit by.
EL is the obvious one.
Though, I don't believe Daz and Bentham were very close in strength.


----------



## Sanji (Sep 5, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> Arlong Park had a heavily injured Zoro fighting a fodder that he didn't even get hit by.



To be fair Sanji got pretty beat up under water (though obviously not to the condition Zoro was in, but it's still notable) and stomped equally as easily. 

And Zoro did get damaged once, headbutted right onto his wound by Hatchi.

Arlong's officers were trash any who.



Halcyon said:


> Though, I don't believe Daz and Bentham were very close in strength



When the main pairs of Baroque Works were show together, Mr. 2 smashed him through the wall of the meeting place. In a thread a while back some made the argument that this was a bit of a hint at their difference in strength not being so large.

I try to stay away from it because it's a bit shaky, but it's something.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 5, 2013)

CaveLemon said:


> -snip-



I concede the first. The second can be debated, so I'll leave it up to you as to what to believe.

I already stated there were exceptions, though I realize I didn't say so in my response to your particular post and I apologize for that.


----------



## Sanji (Sep 5, 2013)

No problemo, my bad for not reading close enough.


----------



## DeathPony (Sep 5, 2013)

Halcyon why are you looking at the actual task that they were doing rather than the symbolism that Oda trying to paint for us? Is your intelligence that low? Yes I know they weren't struggling with the Dino but the point of the contest was to show the significance of their rivaly which stems beyond just their conflicting personality and more into their relationship strength wise. Oda wouldnt go out of his way and compare their rivaly it to the two combating giants if their rivalry was for something like comedy relief...and I honestly don't see what them being "fodder" or not honestly has to do with anything. Oda had the giants reflecting on Zoro and Sanji's rivalry for a reason, Oda doesn't do shit for no reason and wouldn't waste panel time for something as low as comedy relief. 

Also all those thing you mentioned about Zoro being compared to Luffy is all about his character nothing about his strength...and Zoro beating Hody means nothing since we were never meant to think of Hdoy as someone who could push Luffy to his limits.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 5, 2013)

DeathPony said:


> Halcyon why are you looking at the actual task that they were doing rather than the symbolism that Oda trying to paint for us? Is your intelligence that low? Yes I know they weren't struggling with the Dino but the point of the contest was to show the significance of their rivaly which stems beyond just their conflicting personality and more into their relationship strength wise. Oda wouldnt go out of his way and compare their rivaly it to the two combating giants if their rivalry was for something like comedy relief...and I honestly don't see what them being "fodder" or not honestly has to do with anything. Oda had the giants reflecting on Zoro and Sanji's rivalry for a reason, Oda doesn't do shit for no reason and wouldn't waste panel time for something as low as comedy relief.
> 
> Also all those thing you mentioned about Zoro being compared to Luffy is all about his character nothing about his strength...and Zoro beating Hody means nothing since we were never meant to think of Hdoy as someone who come push Luffy to his limits.


Your first paragraph contradicts your second one. You want me to believe that a contest without any strength actually required is meant to symbolize strength, while also saying that a similar comparison made with Luffy is faulty. I don't understand your reasoning whatsoever, but you're obviously willing to jump on anyone who doesn't downplay Zoro to all hell. So go ahead, I'm done replying to this nonsense.


----------



## DeathPony (Sep 5, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> Your first paragraph contradicts your second one. You want me to believe that a contest without any strength actually required is meant to symbolize strength, while also saying that a similar comparison made with Luffy is faulty. I don't understand your reasoning whatsoever, but you're obviously willing to jump on anyone who doesn't downplay Zoro to all hell. So go ahead, I'm done replying to this nonsense.



Zoro beating Hody isn't something that was highlighted like the what happened at Little Garden. That scene was never meant as a strength comparison between a Captain an his first mate...and disagreeing that Zoro could beat Sanji and just walk away like nothing counts as downplaying? Whatever go cry like a little bitch to mommy..


----------



## TrainerRed (Sep 5, 2013)

Zoro Low Diff


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 5, 2013)

DeathPony said:


> Zoro beating Hody isn't something that was highlighted like the what happened at Little Garden. That scene was never meant as a strength comparison between a Captain an his first mate...and disagreeing that Zoro could beat Sanji and just walk away like nothing counts as downplaying? Whatever go cry like a little bitch to mommy..


----------



## Mike S (Sep 6, 2013)

@Deathpony I obviously can't  debate with you. You seem to have this idiotic view that whoever disagrees with you is a fanboy. I can already see reasoning with you is a battle I can't win.

I acknowledge Sanji's strength. I'm not arguing he wouldn't give Zoro a run for his money "10 out of 10" fights. I'm arguing against this idiotic idea the OL developed over the past year that Sanji is as close as humanly possible, if not Zoro's 100% equal. He's not. Sanji isn't giving Zoro a Lucci-Esque fight. With Extreme difficulty, the two combatants are so close in power that the outcome of the fight is unpredictable. A fight between Zoro and Sanji wouldn't be unpredictable. We *know* Zoro would win. In fact, we know Zoro would win more than 6 times out of 10. That's why Zoro beats Sanji with High difficulty.

Yes, Zoro and Sanji have a rivalry but it isn't nearly as much of an indicator the OL portrays it as. 75% of their rivalry is comedic relief and gag scenes where both characters are on fire, fighting in a cloud of smoke, or insulting each other. Also, since when did having a rivalry with someone means you're equal? Buggy and Shanks have a rivalry. I know that example may be an exaggeration but I'm just showing my point.

Coruscation said it best earlier in the thread.



Coruscation said:


> There are some Sanji fans who apparently feel that anything but them being virtually as close as it's possible to be in power is fanboyish and insulting to Sanji but I hope you're not one of those and can see the merits behind the position that Sanji isn't a perpetual 99 to Zoro's 100.


----------



## marco55656 (Sep 6, 2013)

well let's see, Kaku=2200, jyabura=2180

2180/2200x100= 99.1%

sanji=99.1% of zoro's strength, given they were around the same difficulty of fights.


----------



## DeathPony (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> @Deathpony I obviously can't  debate with you. You seem to have this idiotic view that whoever disagrees with you is a fanboy. I can already see reasoning with you is a battle I can't win.
> 
> I acknowledge Sanji's strength. I'm not arguing he wouldn't give Zoro a run for his money "10 out of 10" fights. I'm arguing against this idiotic idea the OL developed over the past year that Sanji is as close as humanly possible, if not Zoro's 100% equal. He's not. Sanji isn't giving Zoro a Lucci-Esque fight. With Extreme difficulty, the two combatants are so close in power that the outcome of the fight is unpredictable. A fight between Zoro and Sanji wouldn't be unpredictable. We *know* Zoro would win. In fact, we know Zoro would win more than 6 times out of 10. That's why Zoro beats Sanji with High difficulty.
> 
> ...



So knowing someone will win means that it can't be extreme difficulty? If Akainu and Kuzan faced off again were all certain that Akainu would win. Would it be anything less than extreme difficulty? Hell fucking no so your point fails. 

...Oh and hop off Corus' nuts please I swear its like every Zoro wanker runs to him for help or something LMAO!


----------



## trance (Sep 6, 2013)

DeathPony said:


> So knowing someone will win means that it can't be extreme difficulty? If Akainu and Kuzan faced off again were all certain that Akainu would win. Would it be anything less than extreme difficulty? Hell fucking no so your point fails.
> 
> ...Oh and hop off Corus' nuts please I swear its like every Zoro wanker runs to him for help or something LMAO!



You know, there's a thing called being courteous and showing respect. So what if their opinion is drastically different from yours, there's no need to fill your post full of unnecessary vulgarity, rudeness and insults. Not every Zoro fan is unreasonable and trollish like Zorofangirl...


----------



## TrainerRed (Sep 6, 2013)

Zorofangirl has Deathpony thinking every Zoro fan is a delusional headcase. Haha..


----------



## MrWano (Sep 6, 2013)

Zoro with extremely high difficulty


----------



## Vengeance (Sep 6, 2013)

@ DeathPony 
Extreme difficulty was Akainu's victory over Aokiji. They are as close as possible. 
The gap between Zoro and Sanji is clearly bigger than theirs.
So Zoro with high or max very high difficulty. And no, I am not a stupid "Zolo wanker", true Zoro fans respect Sanji and his strength.


----------



## Demonspeed (Sep 6, 2013)

If Zoro wins this it will be with extreme difficulty. The majority is saying Zoro is stronger than Sanji via comparison of their opponents but they still think Zoro is near-equal to Luffy even if his opponents are way stronger than Zoro's. I think Sanji is sometimes underrated because there is a lot of comedy in the majority of his fights. The gap between Zoro and Sanji is negligible.


----------



## Ajin (Sep 6, 2013)

Halcyon said:
			
		

> If you're saying that Sanji's legs are stronger than Zoro's then



Isn't it obvious that Sanji's legs are stronger than Zoro's? Show me one feats where Zoro's legs are compare to Sanji's.

Zoro extreme diff.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Sep 6, 2013)

Lol Sanji fans want to have it all huh? Don't you people get that if Sanji is equal to Zoro or weaker by a hair, it ruins Zoro's character and purpose in the whole story?

But who said Sanji has weaker legas than Zoro? c'mon people.


----------



## Vengeance (Sep 6, 2013)

Didn't expect that so many think it would be extreme difficulty. Extreme is too much imo since it is the highest  difficulty possible.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Sep 6, 2013)

I like how DeathPony fuckin' instults every Zoro fan, while he himself can't get enough of Sanji's imaginary cock

Like it's some crazy thought that Zoro beats Sanji with something less than extreme difficulty...


----------



## Unclear Justice (Sep 6, 2013)

I?m going with high diff.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 6, 2013)

Demonspeed said:


> *If Zoro wins*


All credibility lost.


Ziomek said:


> Isn't it obvious that Sanji's legs are stronger than Zoro's? Show me one feats where Zoro's legs are compare to Sanji's..


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 6, 2013)

i really dont get why people think Luffy vs Zoro is an extreme diff fight and at the same time thinks its ridiculous to think Sanji can give Zoro extreme diff


----------



## Vengeance (Sep 6, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> i really dont get why people think Luffy vs Zoro is an extreme diff fight and at the same time thinks its ridiculous to think Sanji can give Zoro extreme diff



Imo Luffy has very high difficulty with Zoro, not extreme. Extreme would mean Zoro is as good as equal to him, which he isn't.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Sep 6, 2013)

I agree with Dawn.


----------



## Coruscation (Sep 6, 2013)

> i really dont get why people think Luffy vs Zoro is an extreme diff fight and at the same time thinks its ridiculous to think Sanji can give Zoro extreme diff



The only thing that's ridiculous is speaking as if any combination of outcomes is ridiculous. The people who do this (they know who they are) may kindly shut up.


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 6, 2013)

@Coruscation

just wanna know ur _opinion_ on this one to be sure where u stand.

Luffy vs Zoro = who wins ? What Diff ?

Zoro vs Sanji = who wins ? What Diff ?


----------



## Mike S (Sep 6, 2013)

DeathPony said:


> So knowing someone will win means that it can't be extreme difficulty? If Akainu and Kuzan faced off again were all certain that Akainu would win. Would it be anything less than extreme difficulty? Hell fucking no so your point fails



Dude your missing the point. This is exactly what I'm arguing against. Zoro and Sanji aren't as close as Akainu and Aokiji was. Out of 10 battles, Sakazuki may win 5:5 or 6:4. That's extreme difficulty. They were so close in power that something as little as DF's may have been the deciding factor. 

Zoro and Sanji would fight on equal footing for a while (like every battle with two opponents in the same tier) but Zoro would certainly begin to gain the upper hand because of the *gap in strength*. Not because of something like an epiphany, a sudden burst of willpower, or some other situation that you'll require to win an extreme difficulty battle. 

Seriously, what's the problem with Sanji giving Zoro a high difficulty fight? Do you think Sanji can defeat Mihawk as soon as Zoro defeats him? I hope not. The gap between the two is big enough where there's opponents Zoro can beat that Sanji can't. Zoro defeats Sanji high difficulty.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 6, 2013)

Can Mihawk give extreme difficulty to Roger lol ?...
Roger > Mihawk >= Marco... meaning Luffy > Zoro >= Sanji
Deal with it.


----------



## Kishido (Sep 6, 2013)




----------



## Halcyon (Sep 6, 2013)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Can Mihawk give extreme difficulty to Roger lol ?...
> Roger > Mihawk >= Marco... meaning Luffy > Zoro >= Sanji
> Deal with it.


That's just a terrible example containing much terribleness. 

If Luffy is Roger, then Zoro is Rayleigh.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Sep 6, 2013)

I believe Gaara meant their individual benchmarks, not parallels.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 6, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> That's just a terrible example containing much terribleness.
> 
> If Luffy is Roger, then Zoro is Rayleigh.


No its a legit example which you cannot accept because you have zoro's sword far up your ass.
Mihawk is Zoro's benchmark...and even if Zoro parallels Rayleigh..it doesnt matter.
The only one who could give Roger extreme difficulty was Whitebeard.


----------



## Admiral Fujitorax (Sep 6, 2013)

old generation>>current generation


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 6, 2013)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> No its a legit example which you cannot accept because you have zoro's sword far up your ass.
> Mihawk is Zoro's benchmark...and even if Zoro parallels Rayleigh..it doesnt matter.
> The only one who could give Roger extreme difficulty was Whitebeard.


1. I'm not wanking anyone. Try again, please.

2. You imply I think Zoro gives Luffy extreme diff, which I don't believe and never said I did. Nice try.

3. It's not a legit example. Comparing people that they're guaranteed to surpass doesn't show anything, especially considering you took Luffy's old generation benchmark and stacked it against Zoro's current generation benchmark.


----------



## Mike S (Sep 6, 2013)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Can Mihawk give extreme difficulty to Roger lol ?...
> Roger > Mihawk >= Marco... meaning Luffy > Zoro >= Sanji
> Deal with it.



C'mon Gaara, you're smarter than this. What does Mihawk giving Roger extreme difficulty have to do with the point I'm trying to make. Also when did Sanji become Marco? Did you even understand anything I wrote in my previous post? For a veteran member like you this post is beyond awful.

Please re-read my previous post and try to comprehend the point I'm making. If you still try to argue Sanji gives Zoro extreme difficulty after that than this debate is over.

Side question- Im curious. Do you think Sanji would be able to defeat Mihawk the same arc Zoro does?


----------



## Admiral Fujitorax (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Side question- Im curious. Do you think Sanji would be able to defeat Mihawk the same arc Zoro does?



it depends on the diff of that fight


----------



## Mike S (Sep 6, 2013)

Admiral Fujitora said:


> it depends on the diff of that fight



And people complain about Zorotards. Seriously, It's no winning this battle. I'm over it.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> C'mon Gaara, you're smarter than this. What does Mihawk giving Roger extreme difficulty have to do with the point I'm trying to make. Also when did Sanji become Marco? Did you even understand anything I wrote in my previous post? For a veteran member like you this post is beyond awful.
> 
> Please re-read my previous post and try to comprehend the point I'm making. If you still try to argue Sanji gives Zoro extreme difficulty after that than this debate is over.
> 
> Side question- Im curious. Do you think Sanji would be able to defeat Mihawk the same arc Zoro does?



Dude even if Zoro takes 7 out of 10 battles against Sanji its still extreme difficulty.
Yeah the gap between Sanji and Zoro is bigger than the gap between Ao Kiji and Akainu.
If Sanji burns Zoro's face (like Akainu burnt WB's) and Zoro is bleeding like fuck I still consider it an extreme difficulty win.
The fact that it wont take 10 days but it might take ten hours... is still extreme difficulty in my book.

Do you really think Zoro can finish Sanji like he finished Kaku ?


----------



## DeathPony (Sep 6, 2013)

^ Yeah they think Zoro is just gonna do what he did to Kaku and just walk away with a cool one-liner. These Zolo bitches are worse than mosquitoes.


----------



## convict (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Side question- Im curious. Do you think Sanji would be able to defeat Mihawk the same arc Zoro does?



No one in their right minds should believe this but seeing how this forum has degenerated I wouldn't doubt many people think (or most likely want) this to be a possibility.


----------



## Admiral Fujitorax (Sep 7, 2013)

convict said:


> No one in their right minds should believe this but seeing how this forum has degenerated I wouldn't doubt many people think (or most likely want) this to be a possibility.





The Pirate Hunter said:


> And people complain about Zorotards. Seriously, It's no winning this battle. I'm over it.


i dont see what was the problem in what i said


----------



## Vengeance (Sep 7, 2013)

Some guys still don't get that extreme difficulty actually means the two opponents are as good as equal. 
The winner had to go to his absolute limit to win it.
Now please tell me, is Sanji as good as equal to Zoro?


----------



## Kishido (Sep 7, 2013)

Dawn said:


> Some guys still don't get that extreme difficulty actually means the two opponents are as good as equal.
> The winner had to go to his absolute limit to win it.
> Now please tell me, is Sanji *as good as equal* to Zoro?



No he isn't... That's why high dif to the highest possible before extreme comes


----------



## Beast (Sep 7, 2013)

This is why threads like these shouldn't be made... Fanboys having a go at each other...


----------



## Jin22 (Sep 7, 2013)

Fanbase vs fanbase...been gone from this site for 5 years and this or Zoro vs Luffy still at it...smmfhthangfb


----------



## Mike S (Sep 7, 2013)

Admiral Fujitora said:


> i dont see what was the problem in what i said



Insinuating Sanji can defeat Mihawk the same arc Zoro does. You really see no problem with this?


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 7, 2013)

Zoro mid difficulty.


----------



## Mike S (Sep 7, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Zoro mid difficulty.



Get out
**


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 7, 2013)

Why would Zoro need anything more?
Zoro can beat Sanji without even using his own swords, just his legs. Sanji loses to Zoro even at his own game.
Weak sauce like Sanji cant do anything to a monster like Zoro


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 7, 2013)

lolzolo and his lolleg


----------



## Admiral Fujitorax (Sep 7, 2013)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Insinuating Sanji can defeat Mihawk the same arc Zoro does. You really see no problem with this?



re-read it.
i said it depends on the diff of zoro vs mihawk. if zoro beat mihawk in high diff than sanji beating mihawk in extreme is very much possible


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 7, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> lolzolo and his lolleg



Black leg Zoro > Black leg Sanji
The epithet "Black leg" fits Zoro better since he specializes in CoA. Zoro could fight Vergo without having his legs crack.


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 7, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Black leg Zoro > Black leg Sanji
> The epithet "Black leg" fits Zoro better since he specializes in CoA. Zoro could fight Vergo without having his legs crack.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 7, 2013)

When Zoro beats Mihawk, it'll most assuredly be with extreme diff.

At least, in my mind.

Plus, the match up would be to Sanji's disadvantage; it's not as clear cut as you think it is, Fuji.


----------



## Coruscation (Sep 7, 2013)

> Coruscation
> 
> just wanna know ur opinion on this one to be sure where u stand.
> 
> ...



Zoro beats Sanji with high difficulty at all times.

Luffy up until EL ties with or extreme diffs Zoro.

Luffy EL to end of part 1 high diffs Zoro.

Luffy vs. Zoro post-timeskip I don't have a strong opinion on but would lean toward extreme difficulty or tie right now. It's subject to change. I let evidence and portrayal determine my opinion.


----------



## HaxHax (Sep 7, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> I let evidence and portrayal determine my opinion.



lol 10char


----------



## Coruscation (Sep 7, 2013)

I understand that you find the notion of doing so hilarious but you really should try it sometime. It makes for a much more enjoyable manga-reading experience and more productive discussions than trying to fit everything into what you have already decided is the definitive truth.


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 7, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Zoro beats Sanji with high difficulty at all times.
> 
> Luffy up until EL ties with or extreme diffs Zoro.
> 
> ...



ok. So,end of part 1

Luffy vs Zoro = high diff
Zoro vs Sanji = high diff . ? if so, i somewhat agree.

about postTS.
we dont know how strong they r postTS as none of them go all out yet.But, unless Zoro's growth rate > Luffy's i personally cant see the gap closing down
so, i am just sticking with my preTS opinion for now.


----------



## HaxHax (Sep 7, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> I understand that you find the notion of doing so hilarious but you really should try it sometime. It makes for a much more enjoyable manga-reading experience and more productive discussions than trying to fit everything into what you have already decided is the definitive truth.



That's ironic.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 7, 2013)

HaxHax said:


> That's ironic.


Is it? Every time I've seen you post, you do nothing but downplay Zoro. You're hardly in a position to judge someone else's opinion on the matter.

I understand some people have a strong reaction to the wanking, but going in the extreme opposite direction doesn't make it any more right.


----------



## TrolonoaZoro (Sep 7, 2013)

Sanji will never be able to beat Mihawk, it doesn't matter with that difficulty Zoro beats him. 
These fanboys are hilarious. 
Zoro would most definitely defeat Sanji the same way he defeated Kaku, oh what's that? You don't feel that way? Start trying to prove me wrong. 
And Sanji can't have a prolong fight against a opponent of Zoro's caliber.


----------



## Tacocat (Sep 7, 2013)

God damn, the Raigen is strong here.

Saying Zoro would beat Sanji mid diff is like saying Luffy would mid diff Zoro. That's not how the M3 dynamic works. Were they to ever fight, each party would feel it.

If Zoro beats Mihawk extreme difficulty, which will probably be the case, then Sanji probably couldn't do the same--at that time anyway.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Sep 7, 2013)

How about we just agree that after the time skip it's impossible to tell for now, and we mostly say shit depending on who we like more?

I hate to admit it, but it's true that so far Zoro's role has dimnished like fuck after the ts.


----------



## Tacocat (Sep 7, 2013)

I feel we have Law to blame for that in part.

That, or Oda's looking to save Zoro for something big, such as Wano.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Sep 7, 2013)

I don't know... he didn't need arc's dedicated to swordsmen earlier to let Zoro have his shine time. I feel like so  far Oda put him on the same level as the rest of the sh's, and I think even haters agree he gave Zoro more to do than the rest before the ts.

He's always been the guy with the second most panel time, but right now he's been on the backburner for 2 arc's straight and 3rd one going.


----------



## Coruscation (Sep 7, 2013)

It's not a before/after thing.

The second and third islands in the Grand Line had Zoro doing almost nothing. Besides saying badass stuff occasionally. In Skypiea he got more attention than Luffy. It varies a huge amount from arc to arc.

It's also not Zoro that has been pushed back, it is everyone not named Luffy.


----------



## Tacocat (Sep 7, 2013)

In any case, Dressrosa is shaping up to be quite the important arc. With all the new opponents, I doubt Oda's going to be sidelining anyone, especially the heavy hitters like the M3.

Plus, Nami's in trouble again, which pretty much always mobilizes either Zoro or Luffy, the latter of whom  is preoccupied with plot at the moment.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Sep 7, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> It's not a before/after thing.
> 
> The second and third islands in the Grand Line had Zoro doing almost nothing. Besides saying badass stuff occasionally. In Skypiea he got more attention than Luffy. It varies a huge amount from arc to arc.
> 
> It's also not Zoro that has been pushed back, it is everyone not named Luffy.



Maybe that's true because I didn't read it weekly back than. Still even if he was doing nothing it somehow felt like he was more important than now. Maybe that's just the fanboy in me talking.

And yeah...that's my gripe with OP after the ts. I like Oda's world building and all, but fuck it's been so long since the sh's got to shine that I just can't enjoy it like I should.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 7, 2013)

Yeah, after the solo Luffy saga, I think Oda just got the idea to start treating the rest of series as Luffy-centric completely.

I hope we get some more variation in the future, but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Sep 7, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> Yeah, after the solo Luffy saga, I think Oda just got the idea to start treating the rest of series as Luffy-centric completely.
> 
> I hope we get some more variation in the future, but I won't hold my breath.



Let's hope so. I like Luffy and all (ok since he hogs all the glory now, I do find him annoying lately) but I read OP mainly for the whole sh crew, AND the awesome world building. Just right now I feel like Oda can't find the right balance even if this arc has been pretty awesoem so far.

@Coru: what's your opinion of how Oda is handling Luffy and his crew since the time skip?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 7, 2013)

> It's also not Zoro that has been pushed back, it is everyone not named Luffy.



Yes which is quite sad. 

Luffy was the super star of the show for a lot of chapters before the time-skip, it would be nice if oda starts focusing on others. 

Although i like the tournament for example right now. Zoro being in it along with Luffy would of been nice, but at least the strawhats are doing other important things.


----------



## Etherborn (Sep 7, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Sanji will never be able to beat Mihawk, it doesn't matter with that difficulty Zoro beats him.
> These fanboys are hilarious.
> Zoro would most definitely defeat Sanji the same way he defeated Kaku, oh what's that? You don't feel that way? Start trying to prove me wrong.



Why should anyone have to prove you wrong if you can't even prove yourself right? This "You can't prove I'm wrong therefore I'm right" logic has been the basis for almost every fallacy throughout history. At this point, I might as well say that Sanji beats Zoro without using his arms or his legs. Oh, you don't believe me? Prove me wrong. 

What's hilarious is that you call people fanboys when you've come up with the supposedly concrete law that "Sanji will never be able to beat Mihawk no matter how easily Zoro does" on your own. 

And by the way, just because the thought of something happening disgusts you, doesn't mean it can't happen. If I were you, I wouldn't spend every fiber of my being convincing myself of my beliefs. You'll only end up flailing angrily if you're proven wrong.


----------



## TrolonoaZoro (Sep 10, 2013)

@TS
Learn2logic.
We're talking about an specific scenario with specific course of action. The only thing that's missing out of the equation is the outcome of such set piece. 
I've deduced based on what they were capable in EL,  Sanji can't do shit to Asura. If I'm wrong it is rather easy to prove me wrong because of how specific I'm being about the "experiment" and where the question lies. I.E What Asura would do to Sanji and any of his counter attacks.
In order to prove me wrong you simply need to show one piece of evidence that goes against it. 
You have none. So again, learn2logic.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 10, 2013)

Lol Sanji has no solution to Asura Zoro. He will probably freeze in fear and collapse.


----------



## Orca (Sep 10, 2013)

Sanji>>Mihawk EoS


----------



## Shikamaru (howtroublesome) (Sep 11, 2013)

I see the Zoro fanboys have flooded this thread as everyone knew they would...

Anyways, I don't see Zoro beating Sanji with anything less than extreme difficulty. If you pay close attention it's obvious that Sanji could beat most of Zoro's opponents at the time that Zoro defeated them. While I don't think Sanji could have beaten Daz Bones, because Zoro was pushed to a new level in that fight, Sanji definitely could have beaten Kaku.

And it is at that point (Enies Lobby) that the great power shift in the SHs occurred, prior to that point Luffy and Zoro were relatively equal, however Oda saw it fit that Luffy, being the captain, should excel far ahead of the other members of the M3. Somehow the Zoro fangirls fail to see this, but I think Oda portrayed it relatively obviously IMO. Just look at how much more powerful Lucci was than Kaku and Jyabura. And Zoro had a harder time fighting Kaku than Sanji did Jyabura, which only goes to show that Zoro>Kaku, but Sanji>>Jyabura. 

From this point onwards in the manga Sanji and Zoro have been portrayed much closer in strength, Sanji even has better feats than Zoro post-TS.

And yes EoS Sanji>Mihawk.

This is my opinion but it is only so because of Oda's portrayals.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 11, 2013)

Shikamaru (howtroublesome) said:


> And Zoro had a harder time fighting Kaku than Sanji did Jyabura, which only goes to show that Zoro>Kaku, but Sanji>>Jyabura.


I honestly don't see this at all. They both waited to take out their power ups, and then stomped their opponents with them. Zoro's finisher did away with his opponent faster, actually, so I see the opposite. He literally broke Kaku's strongest attack with no effort and then one shotted him.



> From this point onwards in the manga Sanji and Zoro have been portrayed much closer in strength, Sanji even has better feats than Zoro post-TS.


How many significant fights have they even had since EL?

*Thriller Bark:*
Zoro vs Ryuuma; Zoro was handicapped.
Sanji vs Absalom, which was practically a joke.
Joint effort against Oz.

*Fodderman Island:*
Zoro one shots Hyouzou.
Jinbe and Sanji team up on Wadatsumi.
Not comparable fights.

*Plot Hazard:*
Zoro oneshots PH dragon.
Zoro oneshots Monet.
Sanji clashes with Vergo.
Again, not comparable.

But yes, Sanji has better feats than a casual Zoro since the skip, sure. Like that even means anything.


----------



## Xcoyote (Sep 11, 2013)

Sanji one panels,prove me wrong


----------



## barreltheif (Sep 11, 2013)

I do not think that Zoro>Luffy.
However, all of the feats since the timeskip are in Zoro's favor. *Every opponent of Zoro's since the timeskip also fought Luffy, and in every case, Zoro did better than Luffy.*
Hyouzou-blocked Luffy's attack and didn't get fodderized. Zoro fodderized him.
Hody-got one shotted by Zoro underwater. Gave Luffy a decent amount of difficulty.
Dragon-Luffy had trouble hurting it. Zoro one shotted it.
Monet-Gave Luffy some trouble, blocked his attacks, and even forced him to escape by destroying the floor. Zoro fodderized her.


----------



## Lee-Sensei (Sep 11, 2013)

Zoro wins with extreme difficulty imo.


----------



## Shikamaru (howtroublesome) (Sep 12, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> I honestly don't see this at all. They both waited to take out their power ups, and then stomped their opponents with them. Zoro's finisher did away with his opponent faster, actually, so I see the opposite. He literally broke Kaku's strongest attack with no effort and then one shotted him.
> 
> 
> How many significant fights have they even had since EL?
> ...



Well let's be fair here. Sword-fights always end in one-shots generally so that hardly means anything. And the way I saw the Kaku-Zoro fight, Zoro was struggling (mainly because of stupid choices on his part) until he started playing for real. Where as Sanji hardly was even focusing on Jyabura after he stole the key, and simply finished him. Even though it was a 2-shot the first DJ kick was an unnamed one. Either way, I still think Sanji beat Jyab easier.


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 12, 2013)

Sanji can beat all the opponent Zoro beat on that exact same arc. Daz was an exception. Even Luffy would lose to Daz on that arc.


----------



## trance (Sep 12, 2013)

The M3 are close in power but not equal. 

Luffy > Zoro > Sanji


----------



## Chad (Sep 12, 2013)

Sanji wins, high difficulty.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 12, 2013)

Sanji gets one shotted by Asura Zoro. Sanji is much closer to Franky then he is to Zoro, considering Sanji might be stalemated by Franky since he cant break his defence.


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 12, 2013)

Shikamaru (howtroublesome) said:


> Well let's be fair here. Sword-fights always end in one-shots generally so that hardly means anything. And the way I saw the Kaku-Zoro fight, Zoro was struggling (mainly because of stupid choices on his part) until he started playing for real. Where as Sanji hardly was even focusing on Jyabura after he stole the key, and simply finished him. Even though it was a 2-shot the first DJ kick was an unnamed one. Either way, I still think Sanji beat Jyab easier.



Well, you can interpret it the way you want to, I won't argue that.

However, Enies Lobby is ancient history now, and it doesn't provide a representation on the current M3. Mainly because we have no fucking idea what any of them are capable of...

...which is awesome, if you ask me.


----------



## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2013)

Shikamaru (howtroublesome) said:


> Well let's be fair here. Sword-fights always end in one-shots generally so that hardly means anything. And the way I saw the Kaku-Zoro fight, Zoro was struggling (mainly because of stupid choices on his part) until he started playing for real. Where as Sanji hardly was even focusing on Jyabura after he stole the key, and simply finished him. Even though it was a 2-shot the first DJ kick was an unnamed one. Either way, I still think Sanji beat Jyab easier.




No, here is how you should look at the EL fights:
Luffy without his new powerup (gears) was far inferior to Lucci. With gears they were dead equal.
Zoro without 9 sword style was about even with Kaku. The fight was back and forth and would have been very high or extreme difficulty for whoever won. With 9 sword style Zoro won instantly.
Sanji without DJ couldn't hurt Jyabura at all, except when he took him by surprise with the key trick. Base Sanji ultimately didn't have a chance. Sanji with DJ won quickly and very low diff, but it wasn't quite an instant win like 9 sword style against Kaku.

So we can think of base Zoro being almost equal with a 2200 douriki, base Sanji being somewhat inferior to a 2200 douriki (maybe something like 2000), and base Luffy being somewhere in this ballpark, probably around 2200.
Luffy with gears is equal to a 4000 douriki, and 9 swords Zoro and DJ Sanji are far above 2200 douriki fighters, somewhere in the high 3000s, with Zoro being slightly higher than Sanji.


----------



## trance (Sep 12, 2013)

> So we can think of base Zoro being almost equal with a 2200 douriki, base Sanji being somewhat inferior to a 2200 douriki (maybe something like 2000), and base Luffy being somewhere in this ballpark, probably around 2200.
> Luffy with gears is equal to a 4000 douriki, and 9 swords Zoro and DJ Sanji are far above 2200 douriki fighters, somewhere in the high 3000s, with Zoro being slightly higher than Sanji.



Actually, those numbers are higher considering the CP9 M3 are Zoans which increases physical strength.


----------



## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Actually, those numbers are higher considering the CP9 M3 are Zoans which increases physical strength.




Whatever, it doesn't particularly matter as all three CP9 members have Zoans.


----------



## jNdee~ (Sep 12, 2013)

When Zoro pulled out Asura, it's still a high diff fight.


----------



## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2013)

Battousai said:


> When Zoro pulled out Asura, it's still a high diff fight.




Base Zoro vs Kaku was an extreme diff fight. 9 sword style Zoro vs Kaku was a stomp. Talking about the "overall" difficulty of the fight isn't all that illuminating because it just depended on how long Zoro waited before using 9 sword style.


----------



## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

It was a high difficulty fight that would have been less if Zoro could use Ashura from the beginning. That's the clearest way to put it.


----------



## jNdee~ (Sep 12, 2013)

It was just the same fight. Asura was just a decisive move. Just like how WB two-shotted Akainu but their fight is still extreme difficulty.


----------



## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2013)

Of course it was the same fight. And it's fine if you want to categorize it as high diff. However, I'm saying that it is more enlightening to distinguish how the SHs compare to their EL opponents with their powerups from how they compare without their powerups. This is helpful because Zoro and Sanji had high diff fights and Luffy had an extreme diff fight with an opponent twice as powerful, yet it would be absurd to conclude that Luffy is nearly twice as strong as Zoro and Sanji. For the difference is primarily due to the fact that Luffy used his powerups immediately whereas Zoro and Sanji did not.


----------



## jNdee~ (Sep 12, 2013)

Their power-ups are of different concepts of use.

Asura is more of a last-resort move.
DJ isn't used in the same manner as G2, which is used as a constant body state in the midst of battle.


----------



## Bitty (Sep 12, 2013)

_SBS Volume 29 - Chapter 271 - page 148
_


> D: If Zoro and Sanji had a big fight, who would emerge victorious? Zoro beat Mr. 1, so I guess...Zoro would be the winner, right...?
> O: Whoa! You scared me... for a second it looked like "If Zoro and Sanji had a dick fight" (Note in Japanese, at least). Hey man, learn to punctuate better or something. You know what I mean....okay, see you next time!




Oda's sucha troll lol


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 13, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> It was a high difficulty fight that would have been less if Zoro could use Ashura from the beginning. That's the clearest way to put it.



its like saying what if Luffy used G3 as his first attack on Lucci. as there were no Marine ship nearby on that time Lucci would fall into the sea & the fight end up in one shoot.


----------



## Mike S (Sep 13, 2013)

I swear you guys are getting extreme difficulty confused with high difficulty.


----------



## HaxHax (Sep 13, 2013)

8Bit said:


> _SBS Volume 29 - Chapter 271 - page 148
> _
> 
> 
> Oda's sucha troll lol



Not even Oda wants to commit to one being significantly stronger than the other. 

Though one should be able to reach the same conclusion without reading the SBS. You know, "examining the proof objectively" and what-not.


----------

