# Raikage's Speed vs Other People's Speed Thread



## Coldhands (Jun 1, 2011)

Link removed

discuss


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## Klue (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato is faster than the Raikage, confirmed? 

We'll probably need another translation, just to be sure - accuracy and all, you know.


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## Egotism (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato fans this your day. Rejoice


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## Gabe (Jun 1, 2011)

seems like it


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## mayumi (Jun 1, 2011)

raikage needs to be beaten. i am so happy with naruto's reaction this chapter. he loves his mommy and daddy and no one talks smack about them.


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## bearzerger (Jun 1, 2011)

Egotism said:


> Minato fans this your day. Rejoice



Why would we rejoice over something everyone of us already knew? 
As if there could have been any doubt that Minato > A.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 1, 2011)

YEESSSSSSSSSSS hahahahah.  Minato the fastest ever.  !  was obvious, but now it's canon.


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## Hexa (Jun 1, 2011)

Things are kind of complicated by Minato's teleportation, which most  thought was shunshin.


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## Selva (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh no you didn't


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## Egotism (Jun 1, 2011)

Ah damn Viz battle grounds is gonna eat this shit up


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## SageRafa (Jun 1, 2011)

Finally the day as come , and we know that RM is as fast as A and can tank his hits 

Minato > V2 A , he himself admited , he tought that Minato was the child of prophecy and savior of the world


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## Renyou (Jun 1, 2011)

More Minato hyping, what a surprise.


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## Minato Namikaze. (Jun 1, 2011)

O Boy what a twist


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## Gabe (Jun 1, 2011)

never had any doubts


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## Kotoamatsukami (Jun 1, 2011)




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## Horu (Jun 1, 2011)

But Raikage is an "old dude" after all


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 1, 2011)

ROFL. Ownage.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 1, 2011)

This is no news actually.Nothing in this manga is faster than hiraishin.


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## SenSensei (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato was Konoha's Hokage and Naruto's father. It was natural that he would be above the Raikage, even though the Raikage is a beast in his own right.


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## Gilgamesh (Jun 1, 2011)

A is badass

Fighting Minato many times when armies were ordered to flee on sight


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## Big Bοss (Jun 1, 2011)

Is not about Hirashin, is about his nomral speed and that > Raikage even with is armor.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 1, 2011)

WHAT!!!!!!!?????

Hiraishin is faster than R2 Raikage???????

OMG guys this is crazy!!! I never would have thought this!!!!


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## Gabe (Jun 1, 2011)

minato confirmed faster then A and RM naruto


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## Big Bοss (Jun 1, 2011)

Lol people saying is Hirashin, is normal speed, Hirashin is a teleportation technique not a speed one.


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## SageRafa (Jun 1, 2011)

He never said nothing about Hiraishin he said there is no one faster than me except Minato 

Weren't you guys saying S/T is not Speed ? 

Now that it doesn't fit your argument you guys say it's with Hirashin ..


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## Gabe (Jun 1, 2011)

i dont think they were talking about hirashin


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## Klue (Jun 1, 2011)

Now why would people think he was referring to Hiraishin, circumstances considered?


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## ~Gesy~ (Jun 1, 2011)

can we just say minato is the greatest shinobi who ever lived and close this case.

the guy is flawless, I love him but he was way too perfect


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## Minato Namikaze. (Jun 1, 2011)

Lol Hiraishin does not = Speed its instantaneous


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## Egotism (Jun 1, 2011)

~Gesy~ said:


> can we just say minato is the greatest shinobi who ever lived and close this case.
> 
> the guy is flawless, I love him but he was way too perfect



Madara was the greatest Hmph!


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## Corax (Jun 1, 2011)

Hirashin>than V2. Old news. Raiakge just said that they fought. Not he defeated me in base lol. In base Mianto is actually slower (as C said).


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## shintebukuro (Jun 1, 2011)

Jesus Christ people, Raikage is referring to having fought Minato and recognized he was inferior in "speed" to him.

Why _wouldn't_ he be referring to Hiraishin? Why wouldn't that be included?

Think about things for a second; Raikage puts extreme emphasis on strength of his body, has a jutsu that increases his reflexes, and then powers that and his speed with bijuu-levels of chakra.


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## Corax (Jun 1, 2011)

You know why. And you know who is the most overhyped character in this manga. In fact Raikage didn't say that he was inferior. He said that he couldn't defeat him.  But this doesn't mean that Mianto could defeat him either. So this thread s name is already a flaimebait.


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## alchemy1234 (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato Namikaze. said:


> Lol Hiraishin does not = Speed its instantaneous



oh puhleeze, its pretty obvious he meant minatos S/T jutsu was faster.


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## Yuna (Jun 1, 2011)

In *speed*. *10fillerpenises*


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## Senju_Hashirama (Jun 1, 2011)

alchemy1234 said:


> oh puhleeze, its pretty obvious he meant minatos S/T jutsu was faster.



if he did kishi would of said so he instead said "SPEED"


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## Big Bοss (Jun 1, 2011)

Lol denial, it was speed not Hirashin.

Deal with it.


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## Divinstrosity (Jun 1, 2011)

It's pointless, though .. if the gap isn't enough to overwhelm your point and kill them.


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## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jun 1, 2011)

Lol i already knew this Foot speed > Raikage and for those of you talking about Harashin Lol Harshin has nothing to do with speed its instant transportation INSTANT speed is movement Harashin is warping when he said he was faster... he was actually Faster deal wit it homies


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## Sferr (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh, my, V2 is not faster than teleportation, what a suurrrprrriiisseee!!!!


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## Big Bοss (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh look another one


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## Turrin (Jun 1, 2011)

I never really doubt that one of Naruto's main benchmarks would be greater than the Raikage.


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## Garfield (Jun 1, 2011)

Sferr said:


> Oh, my, V2 is not faster than teleportation, what a suurrrprrriiisseee!!!!


You're not interpreting it right dude.


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## Sferr (Jun 1, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> Oh look another one



You can't admit that Hiraishin was considered as Minato's speed in Narutoverse. 
It's here, on forums it's not considered speed but between shinobi it is. Look, in Kakashi Gaiden even fodders from Konoha didn't know about kunai trick.


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## Big Bοss (Jun 1, 2011)

I see you are still in denial


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## Garfield (Jun 1, 2011)

The sad part is that the translation we have right now says the word as "fast" whereas what they should logically be referring to according to circumstances is "quick" instead.

Being quick means not _just _ Hiraishin even though Hiraishin is a big part of it.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 1, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> I see you are still in denial



I think you're in denial if you think you have any qualifications to debate with most people on this board.

You haven't made a real argument yet. If you keep it up I'm going to report it as spam.


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## BlueSky Rena (Jun 1, 2011)

mayumi said:


> i am so happy with naruto's reaction this chapter. he loves his mommy and daddy and no one talks smack about them.



Naruto's a good boy  more good boyish that tobi


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## Big Bοss (Jun 1, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> I think you're in denial if you think you have any qualifications to debate with most people on this board.
> 
> You haven't made a real argument yet. If you keep it up I'm going to report it as spam.



Oh no he is going to report me  lol

I already prove you are wrong, you are just beating around the bush and in denial.


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## bearzerger (Jun 1, 2011)

~Gesy~ said:


> can we just say minato is the greatest shinobi who ever lived and close this case.
> 
> the guy is flawless, I love him but he was way too perfect



That's why he's dead. If he were alive he would ruin the entire manga.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 1, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> Oh no he is going to report me  lol
> 
> I already prove you are wrong, you are just beating around the bush and in denial.



Believe me, I know you didn't prove me wrong because you cannot prove anybody wrong with the level you're operating at.

You've barely made an argument and no one has even bothered replying to you besides myself, and now I know why.


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## Sferr (Jun 1, 2011)

We all know that Hiraishin isn't exactly speed and don't consider it the one. In Narutoverse it is. Base Minato was hardly faster than Tobi and base Tobi definitely isn't faster than V2 Raikage. Minato couldn't blitz Tobi or anything, he won only because Hiraishin. Also, Minato's trick with the seal isn't even widely known among Konoha shinobis so outside of the village it isn't going to be widely known too and so Hiraishin would be referred as his actual speed there.
Link removed


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Jun 1, 2011)

It's Minato of all people. He'll be hyped until the manga ends and that'll only be when Naruto's completely surpassed everything he's done. Until then he'll keep being "that guy".


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## Big Bοss (Jun 1, 2011)

Link removed

Talking about speed, not teleportation.

Link removed

Still talking about speed not teleportation and the Raikage says Minato > him

Have a nice day you two and keep living in denial.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jun 1, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> That's why he's dead. If he were alive he would ruin the entire manga.



lol and he was still very young, do you know how much more powerful he would be now?


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## manga genius (Jun 1, 2011)

*Yawn*

I've been telling you fools since day 1 that *Minato>>> all in speed.*

Raikage basically owned all y'all doubters


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2011)

I am not sure If they were taking Hirashin into account or not. 

Although If what Raikage means is that Minato was faster than him(not stating equality) then it kinda debunks C's statement.


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## Bentham (Jun 1, 2011)

*Its clear that Raikage is NOT talking about Hiraishin*

When he speaks about Minato's speed. From the beginning kishi has given minato speed just like itachi has genjutsu. The fact that raikage butted heads many times with minato, the fact that he also faced madara, and the fact that madara commented on the speed of minato's base speed or shunsin when minato saved naruto, tells me that raikage is tlaking about speed not teleportation.

its clear from the manga that minato without hiarishin is still probably the fastest. Raikage didnt mention madara even though he has seen his teleportation which is instant just like hiarishin. which means that he clearly makes a distinction between teleporation and "speed"


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 1, 2011)

Hiarishi ? Okay did I missed a memo ?


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## Faustus (Jun 1, 2011)

And Minato is fastest without hirashin exactly HOW? Raikage has his lighting shroud that speeds up his reflexes, and you saying that Minato's base speed is so great because of what, trainings? Or maybe he has a secret sharingan?


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## Tengu (Jun 1, 2011)

Actually databook 2 refers hirashin as being speed.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 1, 2011)

False. It says it's NOT comparable to that. IT described it as similar to a Kuchiyose


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## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jun 1, 2011)

this is what i keep saying but people grasp what they want and disregard what they please its obvious that the kishi was talking about his base speed Harshin isnt even speed its INSTANT transportation speed is movement to a specific spot INSTANT means your there now PERIOD thats not speed


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## Synn (Jun 1, 2011)

Then what was he talking about?


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## Judecious (Jun 1, 2011)

Synn said:


> Then what was he talking about?



Base of course


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## ISeeVoices (Jun 1, 2011)

*Minato fought Raikage+Bee*

It's just a theory so don't jump on my head. 

1 ) We already knew that Minato encountered Bee at some point in his life --> hence the rasengan 

2 ) We now find out that all the Raikages had always a partner ( A had -> Bee)
killing Naruto's the smarter choice

3 ) The Raikage said he fought Minato many times 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conclusion : when Minato fought with the Raikage he also fought with Bee and thats why Raikage although they had multiple fights is alive.

PS: I'm not saying Minato fought alone against A and B . He might have had support as well.

Edit: I should have put the title : Minato>>>>> ownezzz A & B easily ( maybe that will bring all the NF in this thread  )


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## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jun 1, 2011)

Faustus said:


> And Minato is fastest without hirashin exactly HOW? Raikage has his lighting shroud that speeds up his reflexes, and you saying that Minato's base speed is so great because of what, trainings? Or maybe he has a secret sharingan?


His base speed is great cause kish made it that way asking why minato's regular speed is so fast is like asking why Orochimaru was born looking like a snake when everyone else was born normal....


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## Judecious (Jun 1, 2011)

Well this could explain how they lived.  Maye that's why he thinks minato cannot be surpassed.

lol


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## Stringer Bell (Jun 1, 2011)

Very plausible...


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## vagnard (Jun 1, 2011)

*So it's official... Raikage > Gai in terms of speed.*

Raikage stated he was the fastest guy alive yet he wasn't being cocky given he admitted he would be the second if Minato was alive. 

So can this chapter end once for all the discussions about 7 or 8 gated Gai being the fastest guy alive?. 

Being (Gai) a famous shinobi in Konoha and well known speedster it seems obvious Raikage would take him in consideration in his statement.


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## blacksword (Jun 1, 2011)

Itachi: Don't underestimate Gai.


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## Faustus (Jun 1, 2011)

Sasukethe7thHokage said:


> His base speed is great cause kish made it that way asking why minato's regular speed is so fast is like asking why Orochimaru was born looking like a snake when everyone else was born normal....



So you're comparing the way people look with their abilities? 

Orochimaru's snake-like appearance doesn't automatically give him super super feats. Same with Kisame. But suddenly Minato gets unhuman reflxes and speed out of nowhere?


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 1, 2011)

well he probably doesnt know about the gates then 

if he did he would know he's inferior


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## seastone (Jun 1, 2011)

Sure he has the same speed as a man with Bijuu level chakra and faster reflexes than him. 

Anyway Hiraishin counts as speed since Madara commented Minato is fast with *both *. However Harishin is intravenous while his physical speed isn't.


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## Tengu (Jun 1, 2011)

Tsunade was surprised that Naruto was keeping up with V1 Raikage, so probably yes.


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## Kitsukaru (Jun 1, 2011)

PrazzyP said:


> well he probably doesnt know about the gates then
> 
> if he did he would know he's inferior


Fully gated Gai was on par with Kisame


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## manga genius (Jun 1, 2011)

This is how it is..

Minato>>>> Raikage >= RM Naruto>>> Gai = Bee>>> Sasuke etc.


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## HawkMan (Jun 1, 2011)

He's referencing  Hiriashin. Here's why:


We already know shrouded Raikage is faster than Minato. 



RM Naruto's shunshin is equated to Minato's Hiraishin.


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## seastone (Jun 1, 2011)

Who the hell thought Gai was faster? 

Kisame can follow his movements with his normal eyes, the Raikage can move faster than the Sharingan can follow.


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## manga genius (Jun 1, 2011)

*READ CAREFULLY.*

*Hirashin and Madara's jutsu are* *BOTH S/T jutsus*

*Base Minato>>>Raikage in speed.

If he was taking in consideration of S/T jutsus he wouldn't have said "I'm the fastest shinobi alive, cause Minato is dead" since Madara also has S/T jutsu.*



*Raikage>>> your argument*


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## vagnard (Jun 1, 2011)

PrazzyP said:


> well he probably doesnt know about the gates then
> 
> if he did he would know he's inferior



Gates are pretty common in Konoha and we known Gai is ready to use them in a fight like we saw in both encounters against Kisame who wasn't even a speed demon. 

Do you really think the Leader of the Alliance won't know if there is someone who surpass his speed in his army?. It would be a crucial piece considering speed is one of his main features.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 1, 2011)

Raikage hasn't even used his Gates yet. Gates are for pussies anyway.


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## Judecious (Jun 1, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> He's referencing  Hiriashin. Here's why:
> 
> 
> We already know shrouded Raikage is faster than Minato.
> ...



Shi said he was comparable to Minato, nothing about being faster.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 1, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Sure he has the same speed as a man with Bijuu level chakra and faster reflexes than him.



 So, let me get this straight. You find it hard to believe that Minato could naturally be faster than a man with bijuu level chakra but somehow you find it wholly believable that somehow raikage has BIJUU LEVEL CHAKRA.  If it is so hard for you to believe that Minato could just be so fast, why do you believe that raikage somehow has bijuu level chakra?


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## seastone (Jun 1, 2011)

Judecious said:


> Shi said he was comparable to Minato, nothing about being faster.



Shi said that Raikage and Minato in base have similar speed but the shroud boosts the Raikage even further. 

Rather than explain it myself. Look at this post 





Senjuclan said:


> So, let me get this straight. You find it hard to believe that Minato could naturally be faster than a man with bijuu level chakra but somehow you find it wholly believable that somehow raikage has BIJUU LEVEL CHAKRA.  If it is so hard for you to believe that Minato could just be so fast, why do you believe that raikage somehow has bijuu level chakra?



Because Minato couldn't handle more than half of the Kyuubi. Minato isn't a chakra monster like his wife, the Raikage or even Kin/Gin brothers.

Which is why I have trouble believing it. 

To have insane speed. You need massively powerful chakra. Bijuu chakra, Senjutsu chakra or massive amounts of normal chakra.

Plus Karin confirmed it when she said the Raikage has a the chakra level of a Bijuu and she met one before.


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## Judecious (Jun 1, 2011)

I guess but he wouldn't know gai's true speed since he never saw him use 7th above gates.


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## Big Mom (Jun 1, 2011)

Faster and stronger are two different things.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 1, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Because Minato couldn't handle more than half of the Kyuubi. Minato isn't a chakra monster like his wife, the Raikage or even Kin/Gin brothers.
> 
> Which is why I have trouble believing it.
> 
> ...



1.  To be fast you need Kishi to make you so. That's it. Gai is super fast does he have any of that shit you mentioned?

2. So you believe Karin when she says that a human has comparable chakra to a tailed beast but you don't believe raikage when he says that Minato was faster than him?? Cool story bro


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## Judecious (Jun 1, 2011)

Egotism said:


> Minato fans this your day. Rejoice



what?  we knew this from the start 

Minato=GOAT


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## vered (Jun 1, 2011)

well raikage stated that he is the fastest guy alive after minato(dead).so it seems obvious he is faster than gai.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 1, 2011)

"He was a great man, one i *thought* could never be surpassed."

Notice the past tense


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## Tengu (Jun 1, 2011)

Everybody knew hirashin>V2 Raikage.


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## manga genius (Jun 1, 2011)

The only thing Shi ever compared between Minato and Raikage were *reflexes*.

Now we get confirmation from the Raikage himself that Minato >>> him in speed, your in denial?

Minato is the flash of the narutoverse, no need to over-analyze and nitt-pick just accept what Kishi's been throwing in your faces from day 1.

Minato>>>> all in speed.


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## Sferr (Jun 1, 2011)

Gai is completely unknown shinobi outside of Konoha for whatever reason. Everybody knows who is Kakashi - Zabuza knew him, Akatsuki knew him, A mentioned him during his fight with Sasuke. On the other hand Kisame didn't know who was Gai, nobody in Akatsuki knew who is Gai, except Itachi who was from Konoha himself. Even Zetsu- a land itself- didn't hear anything about Gai. I'm pretty sure Raikage doesn't even know about Gai's existence.


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## seastone (Jun 1, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> 1.  To be fast you need Kishi to make you so. That's it. Gai is super fast does he have any of that shit you mentioned?



He has gates which multiple the output of energy his body produces many times over. Not exacly a normal person either.

Even than, he isn't nearly as fast as the Raikage, as Kisame can follow his movments 



> 2. So you believe Karin when she says that a human has comparable chakra to a tailed beast but you don't believe raikage when he says that Minato was faster than him?? Cool story bro



No, Minato is faster than him. Minato can teleport instantaneously which is faster than anything we seen in this manga, Madara even commented "wow talk about fast" even when we saw Madara phase through the Raikage's attack. 

Speed is not limited to moving your legs.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

seriously? this is all over the place.

S/T was NOT i repeat NOT included in raikage's statement. we all now S/T travel movement is faster than physical travel movement. so raikage could not claim the fastest w/ madara alive if S/T's were included. therefore minato (disregarding FTG) is still FASTER than raikage.

c never said anything about raikage's movement speed comparing or exceeding minato's. he said SYNAPSE SPEED. the shroud amps that even futher. still doesnt make raikage physically faster than minato.

minato has some pretty impressive chakra feats himself,multiple shunshins,including which to date is probably the furthest one. summoning bunta,teleporting bunta and kyuubi,etc. etc. he most likely had quite an impressive chakra pool himself,and we already know he was incredibly precise with his control.


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## Faustus (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato *indeed* had the best reflexes and base speed. He was faster than anyone else, maybe due to trainings or whatever. And Raikage is actually not as fast, he needs his V1 to compare with Minato base speed, which is, however, still human/shinobi like. But when Raikage uses his *jutsu* further with V2 his speed reaches *unhuman* levels and Minato is nowhere near with his *base*. This chapter just confirmed his base was the best in the world (you  now, there is always someone with some best feat), but earlier chapter has already confirmed Raikage's V2 is faster. Read the *Gottheim* clarification from *MaskedMenace* post. It was confirmed by other trusted translators on this forum.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 1, 2011)

Faustus said:


> Minato *indeed* had the best reflexes and base speed. He was faster than anyone else, maybe due to trainings or whatever. And Raikage is actually not as fast, he needs his V1 to compare with Minato base speed, which is, however, still human/shinobi like. But when Raikage uses his *jutsu* further with V2 his speed reaches *unhuman* levels and Minato is nowhere near with his *base*. This chapter just confirmed his base was the best in the world (you  now, there is always someone with some best feat), but earlier chapter has already confirmed Raikage's V2 is faster. Read the *Gottheim* clarification from *MaskedMenace* post. It was confirmed by other trusted translators on this forum.



actually no, this chapter compared straight from raikages mouth that minato is the fastest.  get over it.


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## Kai (Jun 1, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Speed is not limited to moving your legs.


Speed is limited to having displacement. There is no displacement when one teleports.

Teleportation =/= speed.


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## Closet Pervert (Jun 1, 2011)

Dear god are the Uchiha fanboys already reaching out for that?

Lol i knew there would be shitstorm, and what do you know, the top most thread... or at least i think it was topmost.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 1, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> He has gates which multiple the output of energy his body produces many times over. Not exacly a normal person either.



Exactly my point. Kishi creates these characters and gives them any feats HE wants. How many times has Kishi shat on his own parameters??????? How did Madara control a perfect jinchiruki with genjutsu? He did because Kishi said so. Logically, it should not happen but Kishi did it anyways. 



MaskedMenace said:


> Even than, he isn't nearly as fast as the Raikage, as Kisame can follow his movments



And raikage is so fast Sasuke can't follow his movements, right? Or Darui can't keep up with his shunshin, right? or Juugo can't block a direct hit from his shunshin, right? Please



MaskedMenace said:


> No, Minato is faster than him. Minato can teleport instantaneously which is faster than anything we seen in this manga, Madara even commented "wow talk about fast" even when we saw Madara phase through the Raikage's attack.



If he was referring to space-time "teleportation", he would not say that he is the fastest ninja in the world because Madara has a comparable jutsu that has already shat on raikage's speed anyways 



MaskedMenace said:


> Speed is not limited to moving your legs.



You can't have it both ways. Shii only compared Minato and raikage based on reflexes. Raikage himself spoke of their speed and admitted inferiority to Minato. Instant teleportation is NOT speed


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

Faustus said:


> Minato *indeed* had the best reflexes and base speed. He was faster than anyone else, maybe due to trainings or whatever. And Raikage is actually not as fast, he needs his V1 to compare with Minato base speed, which is, however, still human/shinobi like. But when Raikage uses his *jutsu* further with V2 his speed reaches *unhuman* levels and Minato is nowhere near with his *base*. This chapter just confirmed his base was the best in the world (you  now, there is always someone with some best feat), but earlier chapter has already confirmed Raikage's V2 is faster. Read the *Gottheim* clarification from *MaskedMenace* post. It was confirmed by other trusted translators on this forum.



ok so let me see if i have this straight?

according to your interpretation/understanding-raikage said minato was faster than he is,but what he meant was

minato in base is faster than me in base,but then i have my chakra shrouds V1 & V2 so i'm actually faster,but minato has that S/T haraishin jutsu so he's actually faster than me

cause its S/T,but he's dead,so actually i'm the fastest,cause he's dead,if he was still alive he'd be the fastest. 

but he's not,so i'm the fastest.

i'm faster than madara uchiha too,cause even though he has a S/T and is technically faster,it's a S/T so it doesn't count against me.

it only counts when counting minato as faster than me only cause he has a S/T that makes him faster than me.

is that gist of it?


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## Seraphiel (Jun 1, 2011)

So MS translation says he never thought he would surpass him, meaning he did in the end. But yeah Minato had to die because he was the biggest Mary Sue in the manga, he would have soloed this war if he was alive.


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## Jazzmatazz (Jun 1, 2011)

Faustus said:


> So you're comparing the way people look with their abilities?
> 
> Orochimaru's snake-like appearance doesn't automatically give him super super feats. Same with Kisame. But suddenly Minato gets unhuman reflxes and speed out of nowhere?



...pretty much, yeah. I mean, use Rock Lee as an example, how fast he was way back in the day. And all he did for that was train has ass off. Then Sasuke, a dude with talent got just as fast in half the time. Why the hell couldn't it be said that Minato was just got to be the fastest base speed out of nowhere or so?


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## gaiver (Jun 1, 2011)

Closet Pervert said:


> Dear god are the Uchiha fanboys already reaching out for that?
> 
> Lol i knew there would be shitstorm, and what do you know, the top most thread...



half the threads baby! haters gonna hate 

its very clear what was meant. raikage and naruto are RUNNING and raikage blocks naruto's juke - naruto says you are pretty fast for an old guy, and raikage responds with yeah ever since your dad died i'm the fastest alive. note they were just RUNNING - so the reference was to what now class?

they really need to teach more comprehension to these kids


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## ThunderRaikage (Jun 1, 2011)

the only explanation is that hirashin has an "effect area",in other words the kunai has around him an area (for example 3/4 m) that allows you to teleport.
I say this because minato when teleports himself in some case is distant from kunai.
minato teleportation>>v2 raikage but raikage in battle  is more versatile,for this reason the only explanation is the kunai has an teleportation area around him
Something like this  like this one   
(0.30)


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 1, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> So MS translation says *he never thought he would surpass him*, meaning he did in the end. But yeah Minato had to die because he was the biggest Mary Sue in the manga, he would have soloed this war if he was alive.



"He was a great man, one i thought could never be surpassed."

Chapter 627

How does this translate into "I thought *i* would never surpass him"


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## ThunderRaikage (Jun 1, 2011)

the only explanation is that hirashin has an "effect area",in other words the kunai has around him an area (for example 3/4 m) that allows you to teleport.
I say this because minato when teleports himself in some case is distant from kunai.
minato teleportation>>v2 raikage but raikage in battle is more versatile,for this reason the only explanation is the kunai has an teleportation area around him
Something like this  like this one 
(0.30)


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

ThunderRaikage said:


> the only explanation is that hirashin has an "effect area",in other words the kunai has around him an area (for example 3/4 m) that allows you to teleport.
> I say this because minato when teleports himself in some case is distant from kunai.
> minato teleportation>>v2 raikage but raikage in battle  is more versatile,for this reason the only explanation is the kunai has an teleportation area around him
> Something like this  like this one
> (0.30)



or minato is just faster than the raikage is.

you know like raikage just said.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> ok so let me see if i have this straight?
> 
> according to your interpretation/understanding-raikage said minato was faster than he is,but what he meant was
> 
> ...



 What are you doing asking people to understand the logical implication of their assertions on this board. That's his opinion, logic be damned! 

I will never get over how easy it is for people on this board to forget the logical implications of their claims. But oh well . . .


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## Chaos Hokage (Jun 1, 2011)

I wasn't really surprise about the Raikage's comment on Minato's speed. The guy was pretty fast even without using his Hirashin.


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## Seraphiel (Jun 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> "He was a great man, one i thought could never be surpassed."
> 
> Chapter 627
> 
> How does this translate into "I thought *i* would never surpass him"



It translates to me failing to read it properly, I suck cocks.


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## ThunderRaikage (Jun 1, 2011)

> or minato is just faster than the raikage is.
> 
> you know like raikage just said.


if he use hiraishin he isn't faster because he must first put kunai


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## seastone (Jun 1, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> Exactly my point. Kishi creates these characters and gives them any feats HE wants. How many times has Kishi shat on his own parameters??????? How did Madara control a perfect jinchiruki with genjutsu? He did because Kishi said so. Logically, it should not happen but Kishi did it anyways.



Being a perfect jinchuuriki means that you can work together with your Bijuu who can act as your partner in genjutsu breaking. Madara's genjutsu works like Shisui's in that it subtle controlling the mind. 

Even Killer Bee had to notice if he was a genjutsu before the Hachibi broke him out. Yagura never noticed thus the Sanbi he controlled never acted. 

It doesn't shit on logic. People just assume that being a perfect jinchuuriki creates perfect immunity to genjutsu rather than it just meaning one has a partner that is inside them. 



> And raikage is so fast Sasuke can't follow his movements, right? Or Darui can't keep up with his shunshin, right? or Juugo can't block a direct hit from his shunshin, right? Please



Raikage can increase his movements. Just like Naruto did this chapter. 

However Gai's gates are him powering up level by level much like the Raikage can power up his shroud. Except Gai's gates are ranked by numbers. 



> If he was referring to space-time "teleportation", he would not say that he is the fastest ninja in the world because Madara has a comparable jutsu that has already shat on raikage's speed anyways


 
Not the transportation but the speed of it. Madara's isn't that fast nor has it shown to be fast enough to dodge Amaterasu like the Raikage did with his powered up shroud. 



> You can't have it both ways. Shii only compared Minato and raikage based on reflexes. Raikage himself spoke of their speed and admitted inferiority to Minato. Instant teleportation is NOT speed



Which is why Madara commented on Minato's *speed *when trying to defeat him with his S/T jutsu. 

The jutsu and the speed Minato can activate it due to his reflexes make him easily the fastest.


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## kisame123 (Jun 1, 2011)

Raikage is indirectly factoring in S/T jutsu, otherwise Raikage is much faster when it comes to shunshin.

even Madara can keep up with Minato when it comes to physical movement.


in any of these panels, can anyone point out where Minato uses his amaterasu-avoiding, instantaneous shunshin?

S/T jutsu are included in "speed"

then again, Minato fans are in rage and aren't going to listen to anything. let them have their one day of fun.


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## Thor (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato's foot speed> Raikage's speed. C was talking about reaction speed. Raikage was talking about foot speed. Deal with it.


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## Klue (Jun 1, 2011)

Judecious said:


> what?  we knew this from the start
> 
> Minato=GOAT*MR*



Fixed.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 1, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Being a perfect jinchuuriki means that you can work together with your Bijuu who can act as your partner in genjutsu breaking. Madara's genjutsu works like Shisui's in that it subtle controlling the mind.



Dude, Ao saw through that genjutsu = he realized that the mizukage's chakra was not normal. The bijuu was in the mizukage, there is no possible explanation for how the bijuu could not notice that the mizukage's chakra was disturbed. Plus, Madara's jutsu actually controlled Yagura all together. Yagura said and did whatever Madara had in mind  



MaskedMenace said:


> Even Killer Bee had to notice if he was a genjutsu before the Hachibi broke him out. Yagura never noticed thus the Sanbi he controlled never acted.



Balderdash. Kirabi did not ask the hachibi to break the genjutsu for him. The hachibi noticed the genjutsu on its own and broke it. How the hell does Ao and Kisame notice that Yagura is under genjutsu but his bijuu does not. Yagura was being outright controlled. 



MaskedMenace said:


> It doesn't shit on logic. People just assume that being a perfect jinchuuriki creates perfect immunity to genjutsu rather than it just meaning one has a partner that is inside them.



No one is immune to genjutsu not even the Uchiha clan. However, Shisui's genjutsu suggests thoughts. What Madara did to Yagura was more than just suggest thoughts to him. He outright controlled him. Furthermore, the bijuu never noticed that his host chakra was disturbed. Funny 



MaskedMenace said:


> Raikage can increase his movements. Just like Naruto did this chapter.
> 
> However Gai's gates are him powering up level by level much like the Raikage can power up his shroud. Except Gai's gates are ranked by numbers.



Your point is? Kisame could keep up with Gai and a bunch of people have kept up with the raikage. 



MaskedMenace said:


> Not the transportation but the speed of it. Madara's isn't that fast nor has it shown to be fast enough to dodge Amaterasu like the Raikage did with his powered up shroud.



1. Raikage dodged amaterasu because he was expecting it. If he had not been expecting it, and therefore not amped his chakra for shunshin, he would have failed to dodge it as well. You are comparing apples and oranges
2. Plus, if you are going to differentiate between the "transportation" and the speed of space-time, you need to keep context in mind. Naruto commented on raikage's BODY MOVEMENT SPEED not his reflexes. Raikage responded by telling him he is the fastest now that yondaime is dead. He could only be referring to BODY MOVEMENT SPEED. If he was not, he must be a fool to talk about somehting that Naruto is not. If you are saying that Minato is faster only because of hiraishin teleportation, then Madara must be faster because of his S/T teleportation. Naruto was not talking about reflexes but body movement speed




MaskedMenace said:


> Which is why Madara commented on Minato's *speed *when trying to defeat him with his S/T jutsu.



The problem is that you are not taking the many components of speed into consideration. There is body movement speed and reaction/reflexes. Minato has the reflexes to use his space-time jutsu so fast that he can get out of Madara's dimension (remember he commented on how he was being sucked into a dimensional void). This was not a body movement speed feat but a reaction/reflex speed feat. However, as I mentioned to you earlier, Naruto was talking about body movement speed



MaskedMenace said:


> The jutsu and the speed Minato can activate it due to his reflexes make him easily the fastest.



Balderdash. Minato's body movement make him faster than raikage's body movement


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## Skywalker (Jun 1, 2011)

Like Minato fans needed the ego boost.

I'll take feats over words any day.


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## J★J♥ (Jun 1, 2011)

Sferr said:


> Gai is completely unknown shinobi outside of Konoha



Nobody Survived Fight With him


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## Hexa (Jun 1, 2011)

Well, no one has ever seen 8-gated Gai in action.


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## Thor (Jun 1, 2011)

Sferr said:


> Gai is completely unknown shinobi outside of Konoha for whatever reason. Everybody knows who is Kakashi - Zabuza knew him, Akatsuki knew him, A mentioned him during his fight with Sasuke. On the other hand Kisame didn't know who was Gai, nobody in Akatsuki knew who is Gai, except Itachi who was from Konoha himself. Even Zetsu- a land itself- didn't hear anything about Gai. I'm pretty sure Raikage doesn't even know about Gai's existence.



Perfect case of "my opinion>Manga facts". Deal with it.


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## Thor (Jun 1, 2011)

Raikage says: Minato>Me in speed
Bitter NF says: Minato hirashin> Raikage in speed.

I'll take Raikage's exact words over your opinions any day. The manga has made a CLEAR distinction between foot speed, reflex speed and teleportation.


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## Sferr (Jun 1, 2011)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Nobody Survived Fight With him








Thor said:


> Perfect case of "my opinion>Manga facts". Deal with it.



I don't see any facts here. Also, nice way to counter my argument


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## IcySaya (Jun 1, 2011)

When was this ever up for question?


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## Sorin (Jun 1, 2011)

C was comparing reflexes after all and not speed but there are a lot of people who actually don't read the manga but still post as if they know shit.

Anyway yeah Minato's speed is greater than Raikage's.Deal with it.


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## vagnard (Jun 1, 2011)

Sferr said:


> I don't see any facts here. Also, nice way to counter my argument



"I'm the fastest shinobi in the world" (Manga fact)

vs 

"Gai isn't know outside of Konoha" (Your opinion)

Besides we are talking about the leader of the Alliance here. Do you think he didn't get intel about the most powerful shinobi of each village?.


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## Kai (Jun 1, 2011)

Skywalker said:


> I'll take feats over words any day.


aka I'll take my interpretation over canon any day.
or aka I decide my own canon.

Really that's what you're saying.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 1, 2011)

I think Naruto will be the only one who would surpass Minato in speed department. This is the hype I think Kakashi gave Naruto.


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## Bane (Jun 1, 2011)

Kisame didnt know who he was and he worked for Kiris *INTEL* division. Given he was just the muscle you'd think he'd know about other villages and what not. This being said he'd never heard of Gai. I bet the gates thing is probably a konoha only secret. This being said, Kisame matched gai in speed at 7 gates? Need I remind you of the "dont move" statement?


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## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jun 1, 2011)

Faustus said:


> So you're comparing the way people look with their abilities?
> 
> Orochimaru's snake-like appearance doesn't automatically give him super super feats. Same with Kisame. But suddenly Minato gets unhuman reflxes and speed out of nowhere?


kishi can do whatever he wants with the manga despite you excepting it kishi just said Minato Foot speed > Rai

now you can argue that it doesnt make sense you can argue that kishi is a bad writer or you can do what everybody is doing reading too far into the text to try to make it seem like kishi was talking about Harashin when he was talking about his movement speed... 

w/e but it still does not change the fact that kishi just said MINATO MOVEMENT SPEED > NARUTOVERSE


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## Sferr (Jun 1, 2011)

vagnard said:


> "I'm the fastest shinobi in the world" (Manga fact)


It may be so, still, doesn't change the fact that it is Raikage's opinion and not a manga fact.



vagnard said:


> "Gai isn't know outside of Konoha" (Your opinion)


There are many manga facts that support my opinion 



vagnard said:


> Besides we are talking about the leader of the Alliance here. Do you think he didn't get intel about the most powerful shinobi of each village?.



He may have, he may have not, we are talking about Raikage here.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 1, 2011)

Gai speed is clearly underrated. I do agree that Raikage > Gai in speed department but not by that far. We still have yet to see 8th gate. This could match Raikage speed.


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## Kai (Jun 1, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I think Naruto will be the only one who would surpass Minato in speed department. This is the hype I think Kakashi gave Naruto.


When Kakashi never even mentioned speed ?

This one is better

He did however, express that he had great expectations for Naruto *as a shinobi.* We're well aware it takes much more than speed to make up a good shinobi. As a shinobi to surpass Minato, that means in all aspects.


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## Sorin (Jun 1, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I think Naruto will be the only one who would surpass Minato in speed department. *This is the hype I think Kakashi gave Naruto.*



Yes because Naruto at that time was totally fast.He was training to achieve greater speeds too.That whole wind infused rasengan was just dust in the eyes.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2011)

Next chapter Raikage goes v2, which is faster than Minato. A tailed beast amount of chakra in a shunshin can't really be surpassed by anything other than Hiraishin. And we know the Raikage is more reflexive.

Moreover, the speed difference isn't that great if A and Minato stalemated many times in the past. Of course, it will take 3 weeks for Minato fans to quiet down.


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## vagnard (Jun 1, 2011)

Sferr said:


> It may be so, still, doesn't change the fact that it is Raikage's opinion and not a manga fact.



It was obviously a manga fact and plot device to show how impressive was Minato's speed. Besides we also have Shi's statement about Raikage having speed around Minato's level. 



Sferr said:


> There are many manga facts that support my opinion



Which one please?. Just because Kakashi is more famous it doesn't mean nobody knows about Gai. 



Sferr said:


> He may have, he may have not, we are talking about Raikage here.



Raikage seems to know very well the strength and weakness of each village. Besides he has sent spies twice to Konoha to steal people with valuable powers. 

Just because he is the only guy who has balls to deal with Naruto right now it doesn't make him irrational.


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Next chapter Raikage goes v2, which is faster than Minato. A tailed beast amount of chakra in a shunshin can't really be surpassed by anything other than Hiraishin. And we know the Raikage is more reflexive.



we don't know if it's faster. he stated that no one would ever surpass minato. he didn't go into detail about different versions or levels or what not. so i have to think that all together minato>V2

it's also not stated that he was that fast just bc of hirashin. he could've been referring to his physical speed w/o it


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## Closet Pervert (Jun 1, 2011)

That doesn't prove Minato is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raikage in every...

oh who the fuck am i kidding, yes it does.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato Namikaze05 said:


> we don't know if it's faster. he stated that no one would ever surpass minato. he didn't go into detail about different versions or levels or what not. so i have to think that all together minato>V2



not to mention raikage also claims to be faster than madara uchiha/tobi(whoever) who also uses a S/T tech.

so is he faster than a shinobi using a S/T(the "hoover" & FTG) or is minato's body speed in conjunction w/ his reaction speed (w/o any kind of enhancement,chakra shrouds,sharingan,etc)just that much greater than raikage's speed period?

or i guess FTG is faster than V2 raikage who is faster than madara's S/T hoover?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2011)

It's *highly* unlikely he was talking about physical speed without Hiraishin. How can Minato match individuals that are literally vitalizing their bodies with chakra levels equivalent to a tailed beast? It's much more likely Hiraishin is the cause.


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## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

This is just my take on things and I could be very wrong. Minato is as fast as a human in the ninja world can get. He has the fastest reflexes and movement. Raikage is slightly slower and is the second fastest. Both of them created jutsu to take advantage of their insane speed. Raikage created his lightning shroud and Minato invented Hiraishin. With the lightning shroud, A was faster the Yondaime, but Yondaime was faster when he used Hiraishin. If not then I would not be surprised if Minato himself had form of wind jutsu to augment his speed.

So I think Base Hiraishin Minato>V2Raikgae>Base Minato>Base Raikage.

I could be wrong, but I think this will be clarified next week. I also think there could be a possibility Minato had a wind jutsu to increase his speed if Hiraishin is not included.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 1, 2011)

Op Your Assuming that the Raikage fought Gai, or that anyone that has seen 7th gate guy actually move around then yeah i would agree with you.

When Guy goes Seven gates he has no need to speed around, One punch at long range is all he needs. To blast you to holy hell.

Characters say shit all the the time it does not mean its true, just use common since.

Gai's punch in 7th gate mode moves so fast it creates a giant shock wave, now assuming kishi is not stupid. Gai would be able to move his legs around the same speed as well. 

And theirs always 8 gates.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> It's *highly* unlikely he was talking about physical speed without Hiraishin. How can Minato match individuals that are literally vitalizing their bodies with chakra levels equivalent to a tailed beast? It's much more likely Hiraishin is the cause.



so S/T is the reason?

so then how can raikage claim to be the fastest,w/madara and his S/T still running around and kicking?


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## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> so S/T is the reason?
> 
> so then how can raikage claim to be the fastest,w/madara and his S/T still running around and kicking?



Well he is not completely aware of just how fast Madara can use his jutsu. You forget that Minato beat Madara by a fraction of a second in speed. So Madara is already in the same ball park.

If Hiraishin is not including then I am sure Minato will be shown to have some kind of jutsu similar to A's lightning shroud. Maybe a wind move to make him much faster. 

The impression I get is that A was slightly weaker than Minato in the same way Madara was slightly weaker than Hashirama, Jiraiya slightly weaker than Orochimaru and up to this point Naruto slightly weaker than Sasuke.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

its not a matter of speed of activation,rather a matter of speed of travel.

side note- nothing has been proven that jiraiya was weaker than oro or naruto is weaker than sasuke.

only fan conjecture and assumption


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## Sferr (Jun 1, 2011)

vagnard said:


> It was obviously a manga fact and plot device to show how impressive was Minato's speed. Besides we also have Shi's statement about Raikage having speed around Minato's level.


This thread isn't about Minato. It's about A and Gai. Don't involve Minato here with his questionable and arguable hype.



vagnard said:


> Which one please?. Just because Kakashi is more famous it doesn't mean nobody knows about Gai.


You should have better read my whole post, it wasn't only about Kakashi.



vagnard said:


> Raikage seems to know very well the strength and weakness of each village. Besides he has sent spies twice to Konoha to steal people with valuable powers.
> 
> Just because he is the only guy who has balls to deal with Naruto right now it doesn't make him irrational.


From where should he know about Gai's speed? From his spies? The single best spy in the Narutoverse that is Zetsu didn't hear a thing about Gai. Why should Raikage's know better?


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## nightmare realm (Jun 1, 2011)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> Tsunade was surprised that Naruto was keeping up with V1 Raikage, so probably yes.


Yeah I thought this too actually


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## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> its not a matter of speed of activation,rather a matter of speed of travel.



It's both especially when it comes to fighting. Not to mention I doubt A was including Madara since they have knowledge about how his S/T jutsu works. 

Logically to me it seems if Minato was faster AND had Hiraishin in addition he would be able to trounce Raikage. In this manga Kishimoto has been fairly consistent showing the upper tiers of a ninjas speed. People have been able to get beyond this by such things as Gates, Bijuu Shrouds or Lightning shrouds. That is why I think A meant Hiraishin. If he did not, then expect Minato to have a similar jutsu as A to increase his speed.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

arednad said:


> It's both especially when it comes to fighting. Not to mention I doubt A was including Madara since they have knowledge about how his S/T jutsu works.
> 
> Logically to me it seems if Minato was faster AND had Hiraishin in addition he would be able to trounce Raikage. In this manga Kishimoto has been fairly consistent showing the upper tiers of a ninjas speed. People have been able to get beyond this by such things as Gates, Bijuu Shrouds or Lightning shrouds. That is why I think A meant Hiraishin. If he did not, then expect Minato to have a similar jutsu as A to increase his speed.



perhaps minato will have an activation of some sort,we'll have to wait and see.

but i find it annoying that people use FTG as a reason for raikage claiming that minato was faster,but neglect that madara has a S/T in raikage's claim that he's the fastest.

if he's the fastest and he included S/T tech in his praise of minato,but he believes himself faster than madara's S/T,except we all know just by virtue of the nature of S/T that physical travel is never going to trump teleportation, then thats a problem.


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## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> perhaps minato will have an activation of some sort,we'll have to wait and see.
> 
> but i find it annoying that people use FTG as a reason for raikage claiming that minato was faster,but neglect that madara has a S/T in raikage's claim that he's the fastest.
> 
> if he's the fastest and he included S/T tech in his praise of minato,but he believes himself faster than madara's S/T,except we all know just by virtue of the nature of S/T that physical travel is never going to trump teleportation, then thats a problem.



Like I said before he may not be fully aware of what Madara can do now. I think a Fanbook pointed out his S/T was something he had recently and did not possess back in the day. 

I think this chapter once again drives home the point the New Generation Surpass the Old. Nobody could equal Minato until the current generation ie Naruto has surpassed him.


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## DanE (Jun 1, 2011)

people are really stubborn aren't they, Raikage already said he was the fastest,  Kishi wouldn't be lying for any reason.  Here is a good reason to think he is the fastest for now.

 Kisame kept with Gai in his 6th gate and Naruto landed a punch on Kisame without any RM mode training, and now Raikage landed a punch on fully trained RM mode Naruto.

Raikage>(for now)Naruto> Kisame=Gai

The 8th gates thing is practically BS, if you tell me he is superior than Raikage then you saying he is faster than Naruto.  Gai in 8th gates will come close to Raikage's speed but it wont surpass it and hes dead if he uses it anyway, not as reliable as the Lightning Shroud.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

arednad said:


> Like I said before he may not be fully aware of what Madara can do now. I think a Fanbook pointed out his S/T was something he had recently and did not possess back in the day.
> 
> I think this chapter once again drives home the point the New Generation Surpass the Old. Nobody could equal Minato until the current generation ie Naruto has surpassed him.



he just saw madara's S/T tech at the kage summit.


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## nightmaremage99 (Jun 1, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Things are kind of complicated by Minato's teleportation, which most  thought was shunshin.



Isn't that irrelevant by the fact that Raikage's speed comes from his shroud?

Both derive their greatest "speed" from a jutsu of their own making. Minato's hiraishin just happens to surpass Raikage's shroud by a considerable margin, seeing as how he's actually teleporting instead of gaining ridiculously fast reaction speed.

And besides, Minato has ridiculously high base speed himself. The guy caught Kakashi and took him out of harms way when that rock nin's kunai was right in front of his face.

He noticed the explosive tag on baby Naruto's blanket, then used hiraishin to teleport to a safe-house, took him out of the blanket, and jumped out of the house before the thing went off. Notice how most characters in the manga just have the "!" expression mark when an explosive tag is smoking and about to go off? Minato did all that within the time it takes people to go "Oh shit! Explosive tag!" and blow up.

Minato is ridiculously fast.

Edit: Just to add to that little blurb up there. Minato's reaction speed is the greatest in the manga.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 1, 2011)

gai's only real speed is his attack speed, such as MP and AT. i dont think his actual speed is all that.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> so S/T is the reason?
> 
> so then how can raikage claim to be the fastest,w/madara and his S/T still running around and kicking?



Because Tobi's S/T isn't as fast as Hiraishin, activation-wise.

In terms of v1 Raikage, Taka Sasuke landed a Chidori.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Because Tobi's S/T isn't as fast as Hiraishin.



 in ACTIVATION,its still once activated= teleportation.

it still moves his body from point A to point B,does it not?

didnt zetsu claim the speed of light? hyperbole or not,it was meant to convey EXTREME  near incomprehensible speed,right?

raikage did witness this S/T himself right?

so if S/T was included by the raikage shouldn't he of said he was the 2nd fastest? or something like i'm the fastest,except for madara but,he uses a S/T so that doesn't really count.?

BTW sasuke landed that chidori thanks to sharingan prediction,not his speed.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2011)

Are you attempting to argue that Minato can physically move as fast as individuals that use bijuu amounts and/or electrify their body to enhance their reflexes, that were already on level with Minato, and shunshin power?

This appeal to Tobi's space-time jutsu may seem less ridiculous to you, but look at the situation rationally. Minato was just a man with top-notch reflexes and skill. Nevertheless, he would *never* be able to reach v2 speeds without tailed beast chakra amount, or space-time jutsu.

In fact, just look at the data. v2 Raikage surpasses the Sharingan's ability to see. Did Minato ever surpass Tobi's ability to see outside of Hiraishin? Nope.


----------



## nightmaremage99 (Jun 1, 2011)

Whenever we see Madara use his S/T jutsu, we actually see him get warped into that eye of his. I have absolutely no idea how he's moving around, but it really looks a lot like the same way he absorbs people.

In comparison Minato just disappears. Just goes "poof". Minato's hiraishin surprised Madara, which suggests that the actual time it takes for him to activate and disappear surpasses Madara's.

Of course, this doesn't explain how the fuck Madara phases only certain body parts, but really Madara's S/T makes him more like a ghost than teleporting "yellow flash" like Minato's does.


----------



## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> he just saw madara's S/T tech at the kage summit.



Yes, but he has no idea how it works or how useful it is in battle. Raikage only teleported away from the Summit. When A, attacked him he let the attack phase through him. So he has very limited information about Madara's S/T.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Are you attempting to argue that Minato can physically move as fast as individuals that use bijuu amounts and/or electrify their body to enhance their reflexes that were already on level with Minato?
> 
> This appeal to Tobi's space-time jutsu may seem less ridiculous to you, but look at the situation rationally. Minato was just a man with top-notch reflexes and skill. Nevertheless, he would *never* be able to reach v2 speeds without tailed beast chakra amount, or space-time jutsu.



and who are you too judge what the youngest or second youngest(depending on your POV) hokage,child prodigy,non KG greatest genius,probably greatest jutsu creator,can achieve? or that his skill and talent which has been hyped by,sandaime,jiraiya,tsunade,madara,raikage,bee,kakashi,and pretty much every other person to even mention his name is capable of?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2011)

You're just ranting about other types of hype now.


----------



## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

so you think raikage even after witnessing and knowing that its a S/T tech and knowing what they do(teleport) just decided to include minato's but not madara's  in his estimation of who's the fastest?

interesting


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## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> and who are you too judge what the youngest or second youngest(depending on your POV) hokage,child prodigy,non KG greatest genius,probably greatest jutsu creator,can achieve? or that his skill and talent which has been hyped by,sandaime,jiraiya,tsunade,madara,raikage,bee,kakashi,and pretty much every other person to even mention his name is capable of?



That's the thing. He is a genius and it is clear he found a way to surpass Raikage, but this does not mean it was purely physical. Raikage himself used a jutsu to increase his speed. It makes little sense for Minato to be born that much faster than every top ninja in history. Especially considering the two closest people to him use jutsu to enhance their natural speed.

I think this will be cleared up very shortly. Everything is starting to fit together. The flashback Bee had of Minato, A facing him several times and Bee being told to protect the Raikage. I think we are going to get some flash back of the confrontation and Bee saving A's life against Minato.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

arednad said:


> That's the thing. He is a genius and it is clear he found a way to surpass Raikage, but this does not mean it was purely physical. Raikage himself used a jutsu to increase his speed. It makes little sense for Minato to be born that much faster than every top ninja in history. Especially considering the two closest people to him use jutsu to enhance their natural speed.
> 
> I think this will be cleared up very shortly. Everything is starting to fit together. The flashback Bee had of Minato, A facing him several times and Bee being told to protect the Raikage. I think we are going to get some flash back of the confrontation and Bee saving A's life against Minato.



it makes little sense for two 16 yr olds to be on par with the strongest shinobi in history,yet here we are.


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## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> it makes little sense for two 16 yr olds to be on par with the strongest shinobi in history,yet here we are.



No actually by what Kishimoto has shown us it makes perfect sense. The New Generation constantly surpass the Old. Sasori was able to kill the strongest Kazekage Suna had seen at 15. Itachi defeated Orochimaru at 11. Deidara was super strong at a young age. Hiruzen became Hokage very young. Neji surpassed every other Hyuuga at 17. So in relation to the story it makes perfect sense. Minato somehow being faster than Junchuriki/Gated/Shrouded people without a jutsu has no such evidence.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 1, 2011)

I enjoyed it because someone I debated with a long time ago, a lot of people actually, said shroud made him faster than minato, finally i get my official that it didn't and just put him on same approximate level 
I think i was arguing with senjuclan? i forgot so long ago


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

arednad said:


> No actually by what Kishimoto has shown us it makes perfect sense. The New Generation constantly surpass the Old. Sasori was able to kill the strongest Kazekage Suna had seen at 15. Itachi defeated Orochimaru at 11. Deidara was super strong at a young age. Hiruzen became Hokage very young. Neji surpassed every other Hyuuga at 17. So in relation to the story it makes perfect sense. Minato somehow being faster than Junchuriki/Gated/Shrouded people without a jutsu has no such evidence.



except of course raikage's own words.


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## city (Jun 1, 2011)

I think this is very possible.  Bee has clearly seen Minato before as stated previously in his comparing Naruto's speed so this makes sense.

And I can't believe how hard it is for this forum (and some clear haters) to accept the words straight from the Raikages mouth.  Minato was the fastest character in the Naruto Universe and a ninja who was said couldn't be surpassed.  This was said by his teacher and a man that he had multiple battles with.


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## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> except of course raikage's own words.



How exactly Raikage's words should be interpreted are not yet clear. When Minato defeated Madara using Hiraishin it was called a battle of speed. Without Hiraishin Minato was never able to disappear from the sharingans line of vision. Things will be clarified in the future though.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

the simple fact that raikage witnessed madara's S/T and knows what it is,yet didnt include him in his speed assesment pretty much means that S/T techs were not included with his statement.

so S/T techs not included yet minato was still faster,means that minato in base(whatever minato not using FTG) is still faster than raikage in his shroud.

do you see what i mean?


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## MCHammerdad (Jun 1, 2011)

Couldn't be surpassed in .... speed?


Bet you zetzu could beat him in  a race.

and madara..


and soon.

sasuke and naruto.


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 1, 2011)

Yeah, should be the case. Explains the Rasengan shit.


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## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> the simple fact that raikage witnessed madara's S/T and knows what it is,yet didnt include him in his speed assesment pretty much means that S/T techs were not included with his statement.
> 
> so S/T techs not included yet minato was still faster,means that minato in base(whatever minato not using FTG) is still faster than raikage in his shroud.
> 
> do you see what i mean?



I have already pointed out why this argument is flawed, but you never addressed my criticism and trotted it out again. Raikage never saw Madara use his S/T jutsu in battle. He saw him teleport away from the summit, but this could easily have been a reverse summoning and he has no idea how it worked in battle or the time it takes for him to go from one place to another.


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## city (Jun 1, 2011)

Does everyone really think Minato used his best speed feats while actually fighting Madara?  The man deducted that his timing had to be perfect, not that his speed had to be at it's peak.  Remember when he saved baby Naruto?  Madara was already in mid swing when Minato shunshin across the room, saved the baby, and landed on the wall while madara, who was inches away from stabbing Naruto, *was still swinging*.  

This whole concept of A saying "_Minato is faster than me because of S/T but this other guy with S/T is slower than me even though all S/T is considered instant_" crap is just hate.  Minato was meant to be that god-like character for the main character to one day surpass.  Both friends and foes have said Yondaime couldn't be surpassed.  Everyone who's seen him has said he was ridiculously fast.  Why do some many want to argue all this?


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## Kai (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:
			
		

> the simple fact that raikage witnessed madara's S/T and knows what it is,yet didnt include him in his speed assesment pretty much means that S/T techs were not included with his statement.
> 
> so S/T techs not included yet minato was still faster,means that minato in base(whatever minato not using FTG) is still faster than raikage in his shroud.
> 
> do you see what i mean?


If Kishimoto considers S/T speed, as labeled on the sides of ch.502, why wouldn't Raikage be incorporating S/T with his words?

Unless there's a more appropriate translation, A comments on how "fast" Minato is.. *"I am the fastest shinobi alive, now that the 4th has passed away."* Unlike speed, which needs to be properly defined, "fast" is not subject to those limitations and can be applied to any jutsu/movement that gets the job done quickly. 

I don't see why Hiraishin needs to be the exception to the rule outside of trolling with semantics.


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 1, 2011)

arednad said:


> How exactly Raikage's words should be interpreted are not yet clear. When Minato defeated Madara using Hiraishin it was called a battle of speed. Without Hiraishin Minato was never able to disappear from the sharingans line of vision. Things will be clarified in the future though.



he only used hirashin to deal with the intangibility of tobi. i think it was more of a battle of reaction time.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

arednad said:


> I have already pointed out why this argument is flawed, but you never addressed my criticism and trotted it out again. Raikage never saw Madara use his S/T jutsu in battle. He saw him teleport away from the summit, but this could easily have been a reverse summoning and he has no idea how it worked in battle or the time it takes for him to go from one place to another.



*"I am the fastest shinobi alive, now that the 4th has passed away."*

explanation of jutsu used and whose power it is.

*"I am the fastest shinobi alive, now that the 4th has passed away."*

actual un deniable evidence of raikage's witnessing jutsu in practice.

now unless raikage has no clue as to what S/T techs do(actual teleport from one point to another w/o physical linear travel)then your explanation holds no water.


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## Kai (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato Namikaze05 said:


> he only used hirashin to deal with the intangibility of tobi. i think it was more of a battle of reaction time.


Hiraishin was used every time Minato warped against Madara 1v1; It was just never applied in the manner as when he rushed Madara for the final time, face to face. "Hiraishin Step/Level 2" marked the first time he used Hiraishin as a supplement to set up an attack.


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## mayumi (Jun 1, 2011)

ISeeVoices said:


> It's just a theory so don't jump on my head.
> 
> Edit: I should have put the title : Minato>>>>> ownezzz A & B easily ( maybe that will bring all the NF in this thread  )



if it were a statement for itachi, madara loads would be like ZOMG so awesome. if its minato, its usually raikage was obviously trolling.

agree with your theory. i hpoe flashback shows A abd B encounter with minato.


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## principito (Jun 1, 2011)

Since the early pages of the manga Kishimoro portrayed Minato as the best of the best... with honours.....

It was intended that only a handful of characters were superior to him... characters with s lot of weight in the story.... such as his SON or the FINAL villian...

Raikage... being a kage and all... is just a kage from a side village that just appeared like 20 episodes ago; there's no way he'd be better than Minato. And I didnt need this chapter to know that... that's something that should be a given since Minato's name was first mentioned in the story


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## Reddan (Jun 1, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> *"I am the fastest shinobi alive, now that the 4th has passed away."*
> 
> explanation of jutsu used and whose power it is.
> 
> ...



What you are using the example of Madara sucking someone up as an example his combat speed? In that case he should just assume Kakashi can teleport too since he can pretty much do a similar trick. 

It is clear he has no idea about the speed much less the range and limitations of Madara's justu. In the next couple of weeks we will know the truth and now we will have to agree to disagree.


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## 24 Hours (Jun 1, 2011)

i thought this bullshit was obvious to begin with


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 1, 2011)

Minatooooooooooeeeeeeee


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## Kai (Jun 1, 2011)

MCHammerdad said:


> Couldn't be surpassed in .... speed?
> 
> 
> Bet you zetzu could beat him in  a race.
> ...


If you knew how to properly judge context, you'd be well aware "speed" was used in the context of a fight, or combat situations. As in, in a match between the two Minato was faster.

Not a race. Why, under any rationalization would the Raikage be talking about a race? Sure, Zetsu and Madara can reach the other side of the world faster than anyone else. But nobody but trolls and fan based wars are operating on those extremist agendas.


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## sinjin long (Jun 1, 2011)

arednad said:


> What you are using the example of Madara sucking someone up as an example his combat speed? In that case he should just assume Kakashi can teleport too since he can pretty much do a similar trick.
> 
> It is clear he has no idea about the speed much less the range and limitations of Madara's justu. In the next couple of weeks we will know the truth and now we will have to agree to disagree.



he knows its S/T does he not? he knows what S/T does does he not?

yet still madara never even made it into the convo.

he knows that S/T techs are obviously faster than actual movement speed,hence with madara's exclusion ,it pretty much means that S/T (FTG included) were not part of his conditions for his assesment of "speed".


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## ANBUONE (Jun 1, 2011)

yes , becasue raikage has  fought every ninja in the world, second how the hell you going to say  he is faster than 8th gates when to the best of are knoweldge no one has ever seen the 8th gates opened, and if they did they prob did,nt live to tell the tell, third and people are right guy did npot move around the battle feild after he opened the 7th gate he threw a simple punch,one that created a shock wave compartiable to a sonic boom,oh to create a sonic boom a object has to be moving in excess of 700 mph


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## Hamaru (Jun 1, 2011)

manga genius said:


> This is how it is..
> 
> Minato>>>> Raikage >= RM Naruto>>> Gai = Bee>>> Sasuke etc.



Bee is faster than Gai too.


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## CCV (Jun 1, 2011)

MCHammerdad said:


> Couldn't be surpassed in .... speed?
> 
> 
> Bet you zetzu could beat him in  a race.
> ...



Actually.. Zetsu would lose since he can't "travel at the speed of light"

Madara was already shown that he can't out react or run away from Minato once he has been tagged. 

So gg madara and zetsu?


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## Grep (Jun 1, 2011)

Egotism said:


> Minato fans this your day. Rejoice



Every day is a good day for Minato and Minato fans sucka.


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## Hamaru (Jun 1, 2011)

I think Bee let Raikage fight Minato one on one and was ready to stop the fight when Raikage was beaten.


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## Gameboy (Jun 1, 2011)

Ive read many of these Raikage>X in terms of speed, but now a thread comparing with Gai? Lets not get carried away here


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## ovanz (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato and Raikage were like hashirama and madara, I'm sure raikage will want a minato cells so he can unock his final form donkey kong raikage.


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## SenSensei (Jun 1, 2011)

That's possible.
At the same time, Sandaime Hokage could have been taking on Sandaime Raikage and his support.

Hopefully we see a flashback of it.


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## ANBUONE (Jun 1, 2011)

Gameboy said:


> Ive read many of these Raikage>X in terms of speed, but now a thread comparing with Gai? Lets not get carried away here



people like gai are not getting carried away, in fact of all the comapring this one is the most natural, its not like they are throwing in people who have never shown  great spped, but rather people know for there speed


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## Klue (Jun 1, 2011)

8 gated Guy is still an unknown. 

But your point still stands. As of this moment - according to the author - we are to believe that Minato is the fastest, closely followed by the Raikage, and probably Naruto.


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 1, 2011)

Pretty much, although I thought most already knew this back during the Kage Summit Arc when Raikage's speed was compared to Minato's. Of course, I'm pretty sure an 8-gated Guy could keep up very briefly but would then die of exhaustion shortly afterward.


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## The Wired (Jun 1, 2011)

Klue said:


> 8 gated Guy is still an unknown.
> 
> But your point still stands. As of this moment - according to the author - we are to believe that Minato is the fastest, closely followed by the Raikage, and probably Naruto.



this is correct...


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## Lightysnake (Jun 1, 2011)

Y'know, I'm pretty sure A is versed on Gai, given he recognized Kakashi's trick when he used it. And A is supreme commander of the Alliance, so I'm pretty sure they'd tell him about the top ninja of their villages, especially given Gai just used the Gates to take Kisame down


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## Gameboy (Jun 1, 2011)

ANBUONE said:


> people like gai are not getting carried away, in fact of all the comapring this one is the most natural, its not like they are throwing in people who have never shown  great spped, but rather people know for there speed



wait wut? You think im underrating Gai? Dude re-read my post, im actually saying that comparing Raikage with Gai in terms of speed is pointless because we all know 8 gate Gai's speed>Naruto Universe


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## Rancid727 (Jun 1, 2011)

Kitsukaru said:


> Fully gated Gai was on par with Kisame



SAy what? on Par u kiding me 7th gate gui beats the shit out of him 
Reikage just dont know about Gui's gate and or what happens when gui uses them!

Kisame did not know about the gates.

Reikage just thainks he is the best 

can u pick out the key word there?\he thainks there for he must be!
when in fact if put to the test Gui Naruto just tio name 2 would beat the shit out of reikage if it really came down to a life or death fight!


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## ovanz (Jun 1, 2011)

Kisame needed to used a zetsu clone against raikage, he couldn't end his jutsu before he was decapitated. 

Raikage >>>> Gai, I never considered gai that fast, he is around pre-ms kakashi level. And raiton armor doesn't have the bad side effects the gates have.


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## Corruption (Jun 1, 2011)

Raikage probably is faster, but why is everyone saying it's a fact? Just because somebody says something in the manga doesn't mean it's a fact.


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## Bane (Jun 1, 2011)

Spiderman said:


> people are really stubborn aren't they, Raikage already said he was the fastest,  Kishi wouldn't be lying for any reason.  Here is a good reason to think he is the fastest for now.
> 
> Kisame kept with Gai in his 6th gate and Naruto landed a punch on Kisame without any RM mode training, and now Raikage landed a punch on fully trained RM mode Naruto.
> 
> ...



You sir, are very mistaken for thinking naruto is "fully trained" in RM. What gives you this idea? When did he have time to do this? When he was tired of getting his ass blown backwards by attempting the bijubomb?


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## shintebukuro (Jun 1, 2011)

Thor said:


> Raikage says: Minato>Me in speed
> Bitter NF says: Minato hirashin> Raikage in speed.
> 
> I'll take Raikage's exact words over your opinions any day. The manga has made a CLEAR distinction between foot speed, reflex speed and teleportation.



I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Raikage said he's now the "fastest" shinobi alive. There is no reason at all that would not include Hiraishin, the entire reason Minato is known as the "Yellow Flash" which is a title denoting his speed.

Speed is speed. Whether it's through a jutsu or shunshin, if you can outspeed your opponent, you're faster than they are. That's as complex as it needs to be.

It's fucking sad that people act as if though it makes sense that "The Yellow Flash" wouldn't be considered "fast" due to Hiraishin but rather to shunshin. What a bastardization of context for feeble attempts to hype a character.


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## Dashido (Jun 1, 2011)

Send me a PM when minato gets the reflexes to dodge ametarasu, and not teleport  

I'll have to SEE minato's reflexive movement out do V2 raikages. Until then it is as it has always been for me Movement speed-Minato
Reflex Speed-Raikage


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## silenceofthelambs (Jun 1, 2011)

The Minato fandom, constantly proving why they're the worst group of people on these forums.



inb4 "u mad?," "butthurt," "haterz gonna hate," etc.


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## αce (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato shunshin isn't as fast as RM Naruto or Raikage.
Yes, I fucking said it. Come at me.
The only thing that puts him over the top is the near instantaneous movement of summoning himself. The same jutsu which gave birth to his nickname.


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## lathia (Jun 1, 2011)

They're just hating cause Minato be styling on all your fandoms even after his death. 

It's obvious who Kishi really faps to. I said it before, the Uchiha are Kishi's vibrator, but Minato is the foot long dildo he keeps in the back of the closet.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 1, 2011)

its not just hiraishin


*
You live up to the "yellow flash" nickname*.  Madara's words.  That was shunshin.  It left madara unable to react in that instance.  Madara reacted easily to raikage.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jun 1, 2011)

Final Jutsu said:


> its not just hiraishin
> 
> 
> You live up to the "yellow flash" nickname.  Madara's words.  That was shunshin.  It left madara *unable to react* in that instance.  Madara reacted easily to raikage.



No. Just no. 

Madara planned on Minato saving Naruto, so that he could separate him from Kushina. I understand that you're excited about Minato's hype, but don't start spreading information that isn't true.


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## MinatoEMS (Jun 1, 2011)

city said:


> Does everyone really think Minato used his best speed feats while actually fighting Madara?  The man deducted that his timing had to be perfect, not that his speed had to be at it's peak.  Remember when he saved baby Naruto?  Madara was already in mid swing when Minato shunshin across the room, saved the baby, and landed on the wall while madara, who was inches away from stabbing Naruto, *was still swinging*.
> 
> This whole concept of A saying "_Minato is faster than me because of S/T but this other guy with S/T is slower than me even though all S/T is considered instant_" crap is just hate.  Minato was meant to be that god-like character for the main character to one day surpass.  Both friends and foes have said Yondaime couldn't be surpassed.  Everyone who's seen him has said he was ridiculously fast.  Why do some many want to argue all this?



^^

Minato has always been the character to surpass for naruto because he was his father. This is fact people and kishi making it canon that he's faster than raikage to stop all these "Raikage > minato" garbage. And now that kishi made it canon you bring up excuses for it only being because of S/T.. If that was the case kishi would of said that, but he didn't. He said protect!!!

A generalized statement of minato being faster than raikage. Stop the hate and let it go. Raikage is still fast who cares if he's the fastest?


----------



## Faustus (Jun 2, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> according to your interpretation/understanding-raikage said minato was faster than he is,but what he meant was
> 
> minato in base is faster than me in base,but then i have my chakra shrouds V1 & V2 so i'm actually faster,but minato has that S/T haraishin jutsu so he's actually faster than me
> 
> ...



You've pretty much summed it up 

Yeah, that's how I see it, and no one can claim their interpretation is better 

*Eman5805*, *Sasukethe7thHokage* - you know, *usually* Kishi explains unhuman abilities, by KG or whatever. Leaving it as it is leads to logic explained above 

*Spoiler*: __ 






Senjuclan said:


> What are you doing asking people to understand the logical implication of their assertions on this board. That's his opinion, logic be damned!
> 
> I will never get over how easy it is for people on this board to forget the logical implications of their claims. But oh well . . .


And you stop acting like a little "I know everything and everyone else is shit" bitch


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

kisame123 said:


> Raikage is indirectly factoring in S/T jutsu, otherwise Raikage is much faster when it comes to shunshin.
> 
> even Madara can keep up with Minato when it comes to physical movement.
> 
> ...



These panels indicate jack about Minato's speed .

All he was trying to do was nail FAILdara when he turns tangible and would it be possible if he shunshin blitzed him right off the bat ?

Minato used Shunshin while saving baby Naruto..and the reaction from FAILdara.."Minato you are such a badass . You live up to your nickname _The Yellow flash _ "



kisame123 said:


> then again, Minato fans are in rage and aren't going to listen to anything. let them have their one day of fun.



You mad son


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## auem (Jun 2, 2011)

i also don't understand why S/T jutsu like hiraishin has to equate with 'speed'..minato at his basic speed should be faster than raikage,that's what i get from raikage's speech..

secondly,whoever is arguing raikage should have more speed because he has bijuu level chakra should remember kisame,4th mizukage,bee or kin-gin brother does/did have such level chakra,but we don't hear any so called speed 'feat' about them..
so it is not necessary to have massive chakra to be fast...


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## GKY (Jun 2, 2011)

People will see whatever they want to see to counter arguments that may go against their favorite characters. Minato base is faster than V1 Raikage. To my understanding, V2 is just V1 and shunshin. If both use shunshin, Minato will still be faster. 

I don't understand why it is so hard to accept. He was billed to have god level hype since the beggining of the manga, he is clearly the fastest.


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## jimbob631 (Jun 2, 2011)

GKY said:


> People will see whatever they want to see to counter arguments that may go against their favorite characters. Minato base is faster than V1 Raikage. To my understanding, V2 is just V1 and shunshin. If both use shunshin, Minato will still be faster.
> 
> I don't understand why it is so hard to accept. He was billed to have god level hype since the beggining of the manga, he is clearly the fastest.



This, there is no such thing as V2, V2 is just Raikage using shunshin.


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## PainHyuuga (Jun 2, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Well, no one has ever seen 8-gated Gai in action.



thats why hes still alive


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## JPongo (Jun 2, 2011)

We can all guess what Raikage meant.

Regardless, it's Minato who's the fastest.

CANON!


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## Merciless (Jun 2, 2011)

??? 2000% opinion 0% fact. 

Thread Closed.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jun 2, 2011)

Lol now finally proved.

Raikage admits Minato is faster.


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## HawkMan (Jun 2, 2011)

Are people disputing the fact that Shrouded Raikage's speed exceeds Minato's? 

If we take that into consideration, then we can assume Raikage is including Hiraishin. It makes sense, considering Madara had no trouble contending with Minato's movement speed.


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## JPongo (Jun 2, 2011)

It doesn't matter.

Your opinion may be V1 or V2 Raikage is faster than Minato excluding Hiraishin.

My opinion is Minato is faster regardless excluding Hiraishin.

The manga did not specify exactly what it is, but the fact remains Minato is faster.

Deal with it.


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## Hasan (Jun 2, 2011)

By logic, teleportation /= Speed. However Minato's insane speed has been attributed to Hiraishin by the author. Someone posted that DB2 page of Hiraishin in a similar thread by Strategos.

It's a fact that when one says that Minato's speed is unparalleled, Hiraishin is considered not Shunshin. So Raikage was definitely taking Hiraishin into account when he said that.


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## HawkMan (Jun 2, 2011)

JPongo said:


> It doesn't matter.
> 
> Your opinion may be V1 or V2 Raikage is faster than Minato excluding Hiraishin.
> 
> ...



Well, my opinion is supported by the manga and notable translators. Shrouded Raikage exceeds Minato's movement speed. The manga states this and Madara supports it, as he was never "blitzed" by this "unparalleled" movement speed. 

Clearly Minato's speed is the sum of his movement and Jykukan, noted by many sources.

*edit* Maybe I should throw in a "Deal with It" to mimic your arrogant position...nah, I don't need to.


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## JPongo (Jun 2, 2011)

It's the fallacy of trying to break down every little word in the manga to have a better understanding.  It doesn't work some times, you know.

The author will no doubt make some mistakes along the way.

But right now, I'm basking in the glory of my fave character being the fastest. Never doubted it.

Raikage's words >>>>>> C's words.

I still think Minato's shunshin is > shrouded Raikage.

try again.


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## Closet Pervert (Jun 2, 2011)

False. It's just that no one outside of Konoha who's seen Gai at his top speed has ever survived to tell the tale.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> If we take that into consideration, then we can assume Raikage is including Hiraishin. It makes sense, considering Madara had no trouble contending with Minato's movement speed.



If the Raikage is including S/T users..then why is he the fastest ?

He saw Tobi in action and that would mean he should be the fastest right ?

Also the same Tobi implied that "Minato lived up to his hype as Yellow flash" when he saved infant Naruto ..so that would mean he mistook his Shunsin to Hirashin ?

Also in the one panel that we saw Minato going up against Tobi ..how can you say thats the limit of Minato's movement speed ?
He had no intention what so ever to blitz Tobi . All he wanted to do was strike him down when he turns Tangible and he succeeded . Or in other words he allowed Tobi to touch him..plain and simple.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> If the Raikage is including S/T users..then why is he the fastest ?
> 
> He saw Tobi in action and that would mean he should be the fastest right ?
> 
> ...



Did Raikage fight Tobi? No - So how would Raikage know his speed?


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## Senjuclan (Jun 2, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Well, my opinion is supported by the manga and notable translators.



Actually, your opinion is not supported by the manga. Shii was comparing raikage's REFLEXES to Minato's. Not his body speed. 



HawkMan said:


> Shrouded Raikage exceeds Minato's movement speed. The manga states this and Madara supports it, as he was never "blitzed" by this "unparalleled" movement speed.



Yet Madara was never blitzed by the raikage either. What is your point?



HawkMan said:


> Clearly Minato's speed is the sum of his movement and Jykukan, noted by many sources.



I don't buy that. Raikage and Naruto were talking about body movement speed, to include space-time manipulation makes no sense. Furthermore, raikage has faced Madara now. Somehow he forgets to include him


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Did Raikage fight Tobi? No - So how would Raikage know his speed?



He doesn't need to. He saw him action.

S/T Teleportation > Any form of movement speed and I am sure Raikage knows the basics of S/T techniques.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> He doesn't need to. He saw him action.
> 
> S/T Teleportation > Any form of movement speed and I am sure Raikage knows the basics of S/T techniques.



Where did he see him in action? Next time use the manga.


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## Sferr (Jun 2, 2011)

Lightysnake said:


> Y'know, I'm pretty sure A is versed on Gai, given he recognized Kakashi's trick when he used it. And A is supreme commander of the Alliance, so I'm pretty sure they'd tell him about the top ninja of their villages, especially given Gai just used the Gates to take Kisame down



I have already told that it seems that everyone known about copy-ninja Kakashi. I don't remember any high ranked shinobi in the manga who didn't know about him. Gai is a complete mystery to everyone outside of Konoha. Even Zetsu didn't know a thing about him.

Also, even if someone told A that there is a very strong taijutsu specialist in Konoha who is very fast too, A definitely isn't going to change his opinion about his speed. He didn't see Gai or probably even hear about him except for basic information.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Where did he see him in action? *Next time use the manga*.



Eh ?

Really ? 

Then what exactly is this ?


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## Senjuclan (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Where did he see him in action? Next time use the manga.



When he freaking attacked Madara and Madara freaking phased and freaking bird-brained Suna siblings remarked that Madara's power was space-time manipulation!


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## Skaddix (Jun 2, 2011)

A has good intelligence services so i assume he knows.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Eh ?
> 
> Really ?
> 
> Then what exactly is this ?



He phased? How does that relate to movement speed? Don't forget that S/T is defined as movement in databook.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> He phased? How does that relate to movement speed? Don't forget that S/T is defined as movement in databook.



 

I thought you would reread that whole thing again . So then he is the panel


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## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

*No more speed discussions...please*

Can we please not turn this chapter into a new re-hashing of the same old played out speed discussions. Take what the raikage said at face value, and that's it. Dont try to compare characters who have never been compared in the manga. Im mainly speaking towards Gai vs ______ discussions.  It's really pointless. No matter how comparable someone's speed is to X it doesn't matter. Naruto and Raikage are the only big names who are ridiculously fast, and the recent chapter showed that they are even. That's all that need be said.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

*Raikage is the fastest character alive.!!!*

There is no one alive that is faster than Raikage now that Minato is dead. Kishi clearly spoke through Raikage here... This means that Raikage is faster than Tobi, Gai, Killer Bee, RM Naruto and Zetsu.

Minato with Hirashin >= V2 Raikage > Tobi = RM Naruto = V1 Raikage = Minato 

Minato proved he was faster than Tobi with Hirashin. Therefore we can conclude that Minato with Hirashin >= V2 Raikage > Tobi. 

S/T is a movement because Zetsu and Databook said so... This means V2 Raikage can move faster than S/T movement in V2 since right now his the fastest character alive. Discuss.


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## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

May I ask why exactly that it matters whether or not he was talking about Hiraishin or Base speed? IF he was talking about base, then it's only fair to compare them both in base. If he is talking about a technique then its only fair to compare them both with use of a technique. Why does it matter either way?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> I thought you would reread that whole thing again . So then he is the panel



Again that wasn't S/T movement. He went into another dimension.


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## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

Why have you chosen to ignore the encounter between Naruto and Raikage? They are obviously equal in speed.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Again that wasn't S/T movement. He went into another dimension.



LOLWUT ?

Moving through dimensions is not S/T movement ?


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## Haruhifan21 (Jun 2, 2011)

A true ninja looks underneath of the underneath.

I guess people should too.

And it seems there are fewer people who do that than I thought...


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## ? (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake, are you seriously saying moving into another dimension is not S/T movement?


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## Coldhands (Jun 2, 2011)

There is no such thing as V2 and V1.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

GreenTeaMmm said:


> Why have you chosen to ignore the encounter between Naruto and Raikage? They are obviously equal in speed.



That was V1 Raikage. Look at the hair.

V1 vs. V2 Raikage


V1 Raikage speed was compared to RM Naruto.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 2, 2011)

Why is Minato with hiraishin >=V2 Raikage?


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## JPongo (Jun 2, 2011)

Minato > V100 Raikage!!!

Get it, OP?!?!


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## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> That was V1 Raikage. Look at the hair.
> 
> V1 vs. V2 Raikage
> 
> ...



Im confused. The hair looks the same. The only thing changed is the angle at which it was viewed. And thats only in the one panel. The second panel mimcs the hair of the Raikage almost identically as the hair seen in the recent chapter.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

GreenTeaMmm said:


> Im confused. The hair looks the same. The only thing changed is the angle at which it was viewed. And thats only in the one panel. The second panel mimcs the hair of the Raikage almost identically as the hair seen in the recent chapter.



If you look at Sasuke VS Raikage fight, you will see the difference. V2 Raikage hair spiked up. V1 and V2 looks completely different. Shi commented on it. 

We still don't know if Raikage had V2 during the time he fought Minato.


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## Naruto_Heart (Jun 2, 2011)

Erm from the doubters and haters logical point of view, it seems to me that

1. Minato with S/T Jutsu > Raikage 
2. Minato w/o S/T Jutsu < Raikage
3. Madara with S/T Jutsu < Raikage (Since he is the fastest shinobi alive, unless he doesn't consider Madara to be a shinobi)

4. But Minato said Madara S/T > his and Nidaime

So which is which??????!!! omgggawddd


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> LOLWUT ?
> 
> Moving through dimensions is not S/T movement ?



Another dimension isn't a physical place. His not moving somewhere, his teleporting into another dimension. 

Its like Itachi using Tsukiyomi to go in another dimension. 

This is a S/T jutsu which Kishi needs to explain. Its more advanced than Tobirama's, as Minato stated.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jun 2, 2011)

Sweet verification.

It isn't a surprise. Minato has always been the benchmark. This shouldn't be a shock. "The greatest shinobi Konoha ever produced" and all. The man who had a flee on sight order placed on him. Not wanted dead or alive. If you see this man, run like hell while you still can. Onoki told his entire village, you have no chance, not even a snowball's chance in hell of beating this guy. Regardless of how he did it, he's the fastest and the deadliest.


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## auem (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> LOLWUT ?
> 
> Moving through dimensions is not S/T movement ?


ha ha.......


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## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> If you look at Sasuke VS Raikage fight, you will see the difference. V2 Raikage hair spiked up. V1 and V2 looks completely different. Shi commented on it.
> 
> We still don't know if Raikage had V2 during the time he fought Minato.



Well I dont really trust Kishi's art, so something as trivial as hair drawn spikier than hair drawn 40(some) chapters later isn't very convincing for me.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> Sweet verification.
> 
> It isn't a surprise. Minato has always been the benchmark. This shouldn't be a shock. "The greatest shinobi Konoha ever produced" and all. The man who had a flee on sight order placed on him. Not wanted dead or alive. If you see this man, run like hell while you still can. Onoki told his entire village, you have no chance, not even a snowball's chance in hell of beating this guy. Regardless of how he did it, he's the fastest and the deadliest.



Flee on sight was only ordered to fodders.


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## JPongo (Jun 2, 2011)

In addition to Minato > all in speed.

As plain as it gets to be said especially by the affected character.


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## auem (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Another dimension isn't a physical place. His not moving somewhere, his teleporting into another dimension.
> 
> Its like Itachi using Tsukiyomi to go in another dimension.
> 
> This is a S/T jutsu which Kishi needs to explain. Its more advanced than Tobirama's, as Minato stated.


buddy teleporting is S/T movement...


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## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

JPongo said:


> In addition to Minato > all in speed.
> 
> As plain as it gets to be said especially by the affected character.



This is true, but due to my signature I cannot make such statements without the relentless "fanboy" comments.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

JPongo said:


> In addition to Minato > all in speed.
> 
> As plain as it gets to be said especially by the affected character.



With Hirashin I can agree.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Another dimension isn't a physical place. His not moving somewhere, his teleporting into another dimension.
> 
> Its like Itachi using Tsukiyomi to go in another dimension.
> 
> This is a S/T jutsu which Kishi needs to explain. Its more advanced than Tobirama's, as Minato stated.



It is the same thing with hiraishin. Minato goes into a dimensional void in order to move from one place to another without taking the time to travel there, hence he manipulates SPACE (point A to point B) and TIME (moves outside of time continuum).


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## Odlam (Jun 2, 2011)

He's talking about Hiraishin.

Anybody who thinks Minato can simply run or shunshin faster than Raikage shroud 2 can shunshin is out of thier damn mind. S/T bypasses physical movement though by simply teleporting.

Raikage's chakra enhanced shunshin movement is probably as fast as anyone can physically move, seeing Naruto with Kyuubi control moves at the same speed. You most likely have to have S/T movement like Madara/Minato or Zetsu's earth merging to get faster over distance.


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## ANBUONE (Jun 2, 2011)

let it go just because it annoys you mean nothing.. there are a hundred topic that annoy every one , if we went around not wanting to talk about re hashed deabtes the forum would be closed, do like i do when i come across what i consider a tired debate, IGNORE


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## JPongo (Jun 2, 2011)

^^It's up to you to decide that.

As a Minato fan, Minato shunshin > shrouded Raikage.

oh yeah, the OP wants the speed comparisons to end, so...


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## King of the Internet (Jun 2, 2011)

And now this thread itself will become yet another speed discussion soon enough. Well done GTM!


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## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> With Hirashin I can agree.



Technically with Hiraishin it's uncontestable. No character has been shown to move instantly. There's always some type of blur or movement depicted. Minato moves instantly, so anytime it would take for a person to get from point A to B would automatically be slower.

Why it took people this long to realize this, I'll never know.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

GreenTeaMmm said:


> Well I dont really trust Kishi's art, so something as trivial as hair drawn spikier than hair drawn 40(some) chapters later isn't very convincing for me.



IMO, if you don't trust Kishi art then you shouldn't be reading the manga. 

V2 Raikage looks completely different from V1 Raikage. Manga has said Raikage is the fastest character alive. What part of this statement you don't understand? This statement proves again that RM Naruto Speed was compared to V1 Raikage speed. If RM Naruto Speed = V2 Raikage then the manga would have said something else.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jun 2, 2011)

I fully approve and support this theory. It makes sense and fits nicely into what we know.Logical extrapolation at its finest.



MCHammerdad said:


> Couldn't be surpassed in .... speed?
> 
> 
> Bet you zetzu could beat him in  a race.
> ...


Really? 

Madara can cover ground faster than Zetsu.

Minato can cover ground as fast and outmaneuver Madara.

Though ABC logic has it's faults in this it is simple math. If Zetsu isn't faster than Madara clearly he isn't faster than Minato. And Minato proved he was faster than Madara. It was a game of millimeters but it was decisive.

And another thing. White Zetsu was speed blitzed with the choke hold by A. Who just said that Minato is faster than him.


ovanz said:


> Minato and Raikage were like hashirama and madara, I'm sure raikage will want a minato cells so he can unock his final form donkey kong raikage.


^^Epic comment here people.




SenSensei said:


> That's possible.
> At the same time, Sandaime Hokage could have been taking on Sandaime Raikage and his support.
> 
> Hopefully we see a flashback of it.


This would be worth the ink and effort. Kishimoto...DO IT!!!


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## King of the Internet (Jun 2, 2011)

GreenTeaMmm said:


> Technically with Hiraishin it's uncontestable. No character has been shown to move instantly. There's always some type of blur or movement depicted. Minato moves instantly, so anytime it would take for a person to get from point A to B would automatically be slower.
> 
> Why it took people this long to realize this, I'll never know.



Hey, if you want these discussions to stop, how about you start by stopping yourself?


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Another dimension isn't a physical place. His not moving somewhere, his teleporting into another dimension.
> 
> *Its like Itachi using Tsukiyomi to go in another dimension.*
> 
> This is a S/T jutsu which Kishi needs to explain. Its more advanced than Tobirama's, as Minato stated.



Other dimension is not a physical space ? 

You are using the term "Teleport" multiple times..and what exactly is teleporting ? Its a fucking S/T movement 

LMFAO 

The only difference is Itachi does not physically move to another dimension where as Madara does .
Advanced S/T jutsu is still a S/T jutsu


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## JPongo (Jun 2, 2011)

^^that is one way to see it.  one way.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 2, 2011)

Odlam said:


> He's talking about Hiraishin.



Unless you can substantiate your argument, it is without basis



Odlam said:


> Anybody who thinks Minato can simply run or shunshin faster than Raikage shroud 2 can shunshin is out of thier damn mind. S/T bypasses physical movement though by simply teleporting.



This is a shounen manga we are talking about. We don't try to make sense of anything but only that which Kishi reveals. Kishi says Minato was faster than raikage, then it is what it is. Does it make sense that a human being should have the chakra level of a bijuu? NOPE but raikage does. We don't question it, we just accept it. Same thing with Minato



Odlam said:


> Raikage's chakra enhanced shunshin movement is probably as fast as anyone can physically move, seeing Naruto with Kyuubi control moves at the same speed. You most likely have to have S/T movement like Madara/Minato or Zetsu's earth merging to get faster.



Then how do you explain that raikage after witnessing Madara's space-time teleportation jutsu still thinks that he is the fastest in the world. Yet he believes that Minato's space-time jutsu makes him superior?


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## Strayl (Jun 2, 2011)

*Raikage > Minato Overall*

Power = Raikage
Speed = Minato
Brains = Minato
Instinct = Raikage
Reflexes = Raikage
Taijutsu = Raikage
Ninjutsu = Minato
Genjustu = Unknown
Better Leader = Raikage (Raikage was right when he said minato failed to seal the ninetails, so much of kohona died. Kumogakure only lost a few soldiers when they sealed their tailed beast, therefore raikage was a better leader in terms of using a force to complete a goal with the least amount of casulties)


Raikage only that Minato was unsurpassed in speed, but never said that minato was a better ninja then he was. Raikage vs Minato 1v1, the raikage would end up winning. FTG can only do so much when your 1v1. Minato is Faster but Raikage should end up winning overall.


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## Bentham (Jun 2, 2011)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> Actually databook 2 refers hirashin as being speed.



no it doesnt.geez it says that although people think of it as speed its NOT that...its spacetime....


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## Senjuclan (Jun 2, 2011)

Raikage is one of the worst ninjas there is in the series. He is a one-dimensional ninja who relies on a physical element to attain speed and strength. Blow a freaking fuuton on him and he becomes fodder. He has no brain and so far has shown no genjutsu or summon to support him


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

@SuperMinato/JPonga: You guys are not understanding what I said. Read my other posts. 



Senjuclan said:


> Unless you can substantiate your argument, it is without basis
> 
> This is a shounen manga we are talking about. We don't try to make sense of anything but only that which Kishi reveals. Kishi says Minato was faster than raikage, then it is what it is. Does it make sense that a human being should have the chakra level of a bijuu? NOPE but raikage does. *We don't question it, we just accept it.* Same thing with Minato
> 
> Then how do you explain that raikage after witnessing Madara's space-time teleportation jutsu still thinks that he is the fastest in the world. Yet he believes that Minato's space-time jutsu makes him superior?



Manga said Prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage and the God of Shinobi. That means Hiruzen > Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato. 

You don't question it, you just accept it. Then why can't you accept this hype?


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## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

Im not sure how you can measure something like instinct. Alot of what you say is true. Except the outcome of a 1v1. Which, according to the Raikage, ended in a stalemate. And according to some theories floating about in the telegrams it may have even been a 2 on 1 which would explain why the Raikage was able to escape or bring the match to a draw.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> No. Just no.
> 
> Madara planned on Minato saving Naruto, so that he could separate him from Kushina. I understand that you're excited about Minato's hype, but don't start spreading information that isn't true.



How exactly does this make Minato's speed any lesser ?

He was counting on Minato using his god like speed/reflexes to save Naruto and his plan succeeded .


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

+ rep
5 Star Thread

The OP makes an excellent point. Overall Raikage is much stronger than Minato. Thats why Raikage is still alive while Minato is dead even though they both fought many times. This proves their battle must have been stalemate. Or Raikage was much weaker at the time he fought Minato, thats why the match was stalemate. We still don't know if Raikage had V2 at the time he fought MInato.


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## ANBUONE (Jun 2, 2011)

WHAT IS THIS FACT THING, BECASUE SOMEONE SAID IT . SOME SAID .(The jet-black flames of the Amaterasu, said to be the fires from hell that are as hot as the sun, ignite at the focus of the user's vision.[4] Though boasting unavoidability, Amaterasu has been avoided a few times)

Tsukuyomi- PRIOR TO KAKASHI NO ONE HAD EVER SUIRVED BEING TRAPPED BY IT, proir to sasuke no one had ever broken it.

Garra sheild of sand, prior to lee no one had ever gotten past it

raikage liger boom, proir to sasuke no one had ever survied it

pain- proir to naruto no one had ever beat him

my point it common practice for allies or even the ninjas themsleves to hype their jutsu


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## Bentham (Jun 2, 2011)

HaSaN said:


> By logic, teleportation /= Speed. However Minato's insane speed has been attributed to Hiraishin by the author. Someone posted that DB2 page of Hiraishin in a similar thread by Strategos.
> 
> It's a fact that when one says that Minato's speed is unparalleled, Hiraishin is considered not Shunshin. So Raikage was definitely taking Hiraishin into account when he said that.



the datatbook doesnt call minato's hiarishin speed....it says that it a mistake to call it speed because it is akin to S/T...i wish people would understand this..not an attack on you.

If he did include hiarishin, then he should have included madara's S/T since he has experienced it...and yet he still claims to be faster than madara


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## dungsi27 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> + rep
> 5 Star Thread
> 
> The OP makes an excellent point. Overall Raikage is much stronger than Minato. *Thats why Raikage is still alive while Minato is dead even though they both fought many times. This proves their battle must have been stalemate*. Or Raikage was much weaker at the time he fought Minato, thats why the match was stalemate. We still don't know if Raikage had V2 at the time he fought MInato.



Sorry to say this but that was one of the most stupid arguement Ive ever seen in this forum dude.So youre saying that Raikage is stronger than Minato because Minato died to Madara

Its doesnt matter whether he had V2 at the time he fought Minato he said that right now theres noone faster than him only because Minato is dead.That means if Minato wasnt then right now Minato would have been faster than current Raikage,who has V2.


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## muishot (Jun 2, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Being a perfect jinchuuriki means that you can work together with your Bijuu who can act as your partner in genjutsu breaking. Madara's genjutsu works like Shisui's in that it subtle controlling the mind.
> 
> Even Killer Bee had to notice if he was a genjutsu before the Hachibi broke him out. Yagura never noticed thus the Sanbi he controlled never acted.
> 
> ...



Let me ask you several questions.  Do you need to have a bijuu seal inside you in order to be super powerful?  Do you need to have a kekkai genkai in order to be super strong?  Do you need large chakra pool in order to be super fast?  

The logical explanation you are looking for is this.  People get strong via different methods.  People have different means to make them fast.  Rock Lee increases his speed by carrying weights on his limbs and body all the time.  However, Sasuke can copy that speed in a little less than a week without having to spend a lifetime training with weights.  How is that even possible?  Haraishin is teleportation.  It is like a Kuchiyose.  It is not even speed.  The Fourth can place a seal for Hairishin in Konoha and then go to Kumo and challenge the Raikage in a race to Konoha.  There is no way the Raikage can even hope to win that race.  Before the Raikage can even take a step, the Fourth is already in Konoha banging his wife.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Sorry to say this but that was one of the most stupid arguement Ive ever seen in this forum dude.So youre saying that Raikage is stronger than Minato because Minato died to Madara
> 
> Its doesnt matter whether he had V2 at the time he fought Minato he said that right now theres noone faster than him only because Minato is dead.That means if Minato wasnt then right now Minato would have been faster than current Raikage,who has V2.



Next time learn to read the whole post. 

I said in overrall Raikage is much stronger than Minato. 

Power = Raikage
Speed = Minato
Brains = Minato
Instinct = Raikage
Reflexes = Raikage
Taijutsu = Raikage
Ninjutsu = Minato
Genjustu = Unknown
Better Leader = Raikage


----------



## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Manga said Prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage and the God of Shinobi. That means Hiruzen > Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato.
> 
> You don't question it, you just accept it. Then why can't you accept this hype?



I dont mean to barge in on this little discussion but this is a pretty weak point. Being called the strongest hokage could refer to many things, alive, within the leaf, within the world. It was also stated by an academy teacher to a bunch of 10 year olds. I think it was literal hype within the manga more than anything. A statement to incite "awe" within students, not an actual statement to be taken literally. Mostly because we know that under all parameters that statement to be false. Also, the "god of shinobi" doesn't help either since he died shortly after to a character who wouldn't even stand on the same level as the shinobi we've seen thus far. (think about the fact that Nagato was alive at this time)


Finding meaning in what the Raikage said is pointless. We only know that Minato was faster. We dont know in what ways or how, just that he was faster. It really doesn't matter if it was shunshin or Hiraishin or base, because minato had access to all of these at any given time. The point is that he's faster, something I know that you dont disagree with. The parameters under which he was faster isn't important.


----------



## SageRafa (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Next time learn to read the whole post.
> 
> I said in overrall Raikage is much stronger than Minato.
> 
> ...



LOL Brains and instincts are the same Speed and Reflexes go in the same category ..

Taijutsu - Raikage 
Ninjutsu - Minato
Genjutsu - Unknown
Speed - Minato
Strenght - Raikage 
Inteligence - Minato
Seals - Minato 
Stamina - Raikage

Who is the best overall ? please use the ranking of the * mangaka * not your own ranking ..

If not I can make special tier for "Sealing Techs" , "S/T Tech" etc and make Minato much superior ..


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Next time learn to read the whole post.
> 
> I said in overrall Raikage is much stronger than Minato.
> 
> ...



What epic logic .

Using this I am sure he would be below only Rikudo overall .


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## Face (Jun 2, 2011)

Most people here think that Minato is faster than the Raikage only because of Hiraishin. But that's not really true. Minato's shunshin is one of the reasons why he is famous.


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## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

For anyone who wants to argue that Raikage is stronger than Minato I implore you to learn about Minato's death and who killed him.

spoiler alert: It wasn't A.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> What epic logic .
> 
> Using this I am sure he would be below only Rikudo overall .



Thats Itachi.  

Jokes aside, Raikage is much more durable, stronger then Minato. The difference in those two field is quite vast. But Minato speed and Raikage speed is not that far apart. Minato is likely faster than Raikage by a very small amount. 

Overall Raikage is much stronger than Minato.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Next time learn to read the whole post.
> 
> I said in overrall Raikage is much stronger than Minato.
> 
> ...



I read your thread carefully,and this is what I found:

"Thats why Raikage is still alive while Minato is dead even though they both fought many times. This proves their battle must have been stalemate"

So thats how you determine the stronger shinobi huh?The one alive is the stronger between the two huh?So now Hinata is stronger than Pein I guess.

And do you know what is the problem of your list?The factors considered are chosen by you.And they are bias.Insticnt wtf?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> I read your thread carefully,and this is what I found:
> 
> "Thats why Raikage is still alive while Minato is dead even though they both fought many times. This proves their battle must have been stalemate"
> 
> ...



Learn to read the whole post instead of quoting one part of it. 



Kakashi Hatake said:


> + rep
> 5 Star Thread
> 
> The OP makes an excellent point. *Overall Raikage is much stronger than Minato.* Thats why Raikage is still alive while Minato is dead *even though they both fought many times. This proves their battle must have been stalemate.* Or Raikage was much weaker at the time he fought Minato, thats why the match was stalemate. *We still don't know if Raikage had V2* at the time he fought MInato.



Seriously some people just can't read.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Thats Itachi.
> 
> Jokes aside, Raikage is much more durable, stronger then Minato. The difference in those two field is quite vast. But Minato speed and Raikage speed is not that far apart. Minato is likely faster than Raikage by a very small amount.
> 
> Overall Raikage is much stronger than Minato.



Dude Minato is vastly more powerful than Raikage in ninjutsu,sealing tech,battle tactics.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Dude Minato is vastly more powerful than Raikage in ninjutsu,sealing tech,battle tactics.



And Raikage is more powerful than Minato in Taijutsu, reflexes and power. He has bijuu level chakra.


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## SageRafa (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> And Raikage is more powerful than Minato in Taijutsu, reflexes and power. He has bijuu level chakra.



See my post and respond then if you can ..

Use the mangaka rankings not your


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## Face (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Learn to read the whole post instead of quoting one part of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously some people just can't read.



Naruto and Orochimaru have butted heads several times. Does that mean they are equal?


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## muishot (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> And Raikage is more powerful than Minato in Taijutsu, reflexes and power. He has bijuu level chakra.



Only people with biju level chakra can be stronger than others, right?


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## CrazyMoronX (Jun 2, 2011)

If Minato is faster than Raikage and Madara was able to keep up with him at a reasonable level, does that not also mean that Madara should be faster than Raikage? Or at least as fast.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Learn to read the whole post instead of quoting one part of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously some people just can't read.



dude next time learn to write before you ask people to learn to read.

"Overall Raikage is much stronger than Minato. Thats why Raikage is still alive while Minato is dead even though they both fought many times"

When you write like this the first sentence is the reason to support the second sentence isnt it?

As for you saying we dont know if Raikage had V2 back then,I already said my point on that,if you havent catched it then here is it:

"Its doesnt matter whether he had V2 at the time he fought Minato he said that right now theres noone faster than him only because Minato is dead.That means if Minato wasnt then right now Minato would have been faster than current Raikage,who has V2."


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> See my post and respond then if you can ..
> 
> Use the mangaka rankings not your



Whats Mangaka ranking?



Face said:


> Naruto and Orochimaru have butted heads several times. Does that mean they are equal?



Orochimaru beat Naruto each time they fought. He dominated the battle.

Besides I never said Raikage Speed = Minato's if thats what your trying to say?



muishot said:


> Only people with biju level chakra can be stronger than others, right?



Who said that? Why are you asking me this? Can't you figure out why I said Raikage has bijuu level chakra? 

If you can't then I'll tell you. Raikage can outlast Minato in a battle due to the bijuu level chakra. Next time think before you post.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> And Raikage is more powerful than Minato in Taijutsu, reflexes and power. He has bijuu level chakra.



thats 3=3.So how did you come up with Raikage>Minato again?

anyway the point is that you guys are making up your own list where you ignore important factors to consider and add in stupid factors.Instinct wtf.


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## Face (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Orochimaru beat Naruto each time they fought. He dominated the battle.
> 
> Besides I never said Raikage Speed = Minato's if thats what your trying to say?




Yes, but you were using the Raikage's statement as a way to determine his strength. You said it yourself. Butting heads doesn't mean that they are both equal in power.

Also I wasn't talking about there speed.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> dude next time learn to write before you ask people to learn to read.
> 
> "Overall Raikage is much stronger than Minato. Thats why Raikage is still alive while Minato is dead even though they both fought many times"
> 
> ...



You don't quote one part of the post. Your just taking it out of context. This is something you need to learn. I can take out one sentence of a post, but that could mean something completely different if you read the whole post.



dungsi27 said:


> thats 3=3.So how did you come up with Raikage>Minato again?
> 
> anyway the point is that you guys are making up your own list where you ignore important factors to consider and add in stupid factors.Instinct wtf.



If you looked at my tier list, Minato > Raikage. 

Overall as in...

Taijutsu = Raikage
Ninjutsu = Minato
Speed = Minato 
Genjutsu = Unknown
Durability = Raikage
Instinct = Raikage
Reflex = Raikage
Strength = Raikage
Seal = Minato?
Brains = Minato
ETC
ETC

Over all Raikage is much stronger than Minato. That doesn't mean I think Raikage > Minato. I need to see more feats to determine that. You can be good at all fields and still get beaten by the greatest genjutsu master Itachi.



Face said:


> Yes, but you were using the Raikage's statement as a way to determine his strength. As you said yourself butting heads doesn't mean that both were equal in power.
> 
> Also I wasn't talking about there speed.



They fought many times, we don't know who the victor is, but we can assume it was a stalemate since both of the Shinobi lived. This could mean that they couldn't beat each other. Which could mean they were equal. Note I said "could."

Raikage is stronger than Minato overall. Read my reply to Dugsi.


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## Face (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> They fought many times, we don't know who the victor is, but we can assume it was a stalemate since both of the Shinobi lived. This could mean that they couldn't beat each other. Which could mean they were equal. Note I said "could."
> 
> Raikage is stronger than Minato overall. Read my reply to Dugsi.




The Raikage couldn't even touch Madara. How does he plan on defeating Minato?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

Face said:


> The Raikage couldn't even touch Madara. How does he plan on defeating Minato?



Minato touched Madara, yet he couldn't defeat Raikage? 

This can work both way. The fact is that both fought many times and there was no victor. If there was then one of them would have been dead since you know they were at war with each other. We don't know who dominated each match but we can assume it was a draw and both were equals thats why they both couldn't defeat each other.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> You don't quote one part of the post. Your just taking it out of context. This is something you need to learn. I can take out one sentence of a post, but that could mean something completely different if you read the whole post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I dont take stuff out of context.That two sentences on its own are enough to make up an argument.This is how we analyse things:reading the whole context and then pick out parts of it to analyze.

I understand what you said but your list is just bias.You havent answered my question.Why instinct?


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## dungsi27 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Minato touched Madara, yet he couldn't defeat Raikage?
> 
> This can work both way. The fact is that both fought many times and there was no victor. If there was then one of them would have been dead since you know they were at war with each other.



Sasuke and Bee were at war,yet both parties walked away alive.

Tsuande and Orochimaru were at war,yet again both parties walked away alive.

Sasuke and the Kages were at war,and yet again both parties walked away alive.

Naruto and Gaara were at war,and they both walked away alive.

Your point?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> No I dont take stuff out of context.That two sentences on its own are enough to make up an argument.This is how we analyse things:reading the whole context and then pick out parts of it to analyze.
> 
> I understand what you said but your list is just bias.You havent answered my question.Why instinct?



 

Clearly you don't understand what context means.

Out of context.



> Thats why Raikage is still alive while Minato is dead even though they both fought many times.



^ When you quote one part of the post. Then it does mean that I think Raikage is stronger than Minato because his still alive. 



> + rep
> 5 Star Thread
> 
> The OP makes an excellent point. Overall Raikage is much stronger than Minato. Thats why Raikage is still alive while Minato is dead even though they both fought many times. This proves their battle must have been stalemate. Or Raikage was much weaker at the time he fought Minato, thats why the match was stalemate. We still don't know if Raikage had V2 at the time he fought MInato.



But when you read the overall post, it means that I think overall Raikage is stronger. This was referred to another post in another thread which got merged with this one. 

*This proves their battle must have been stalemate.*

Note the word proves, it means that because they fought many times and there was no victor, they were equal. But we don't know if Raikage had V2 at that time. Therefore Raikage right now with V2 can be said to be stronger than Minato. 

Do you finally get the difference between quoting a small part of the post rather then the whole post? Or do you want me to give you an example? 

If you don't understand then you can ask a mod. I'm sure they will help you out.


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## Face (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Minato touched Madara, yet he couldn't defeat Raikage?



Like I said in my previous post. Just because you survive a battle doesn't mean you are equal in power.


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## Garfield (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:
			
		

> Minato touched Madara, yet he couldn't defeat Raikage?


What are you saying man? Raikage himself strongly implied that Minato beat him in battles. Beating doesn't always mean killing you know?


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## SageRafa (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Whats Mangaka ranking?



The manga's ranking is the Rank the mangaka ( Kishi ) uses in the databook .. I shouldn't have to be explaining this .. This is the * right * ranking :



SageRafa said:


> LOL Brains and instincts are the same Speed and Reflexes go in the same category ..
> 
> Taijutsu - Raikage
> Ninjutsu - Minato
> ...


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## ?_Camorra_? (Jun 2, 2011)

Why people asume that Raikage has that much more chakra then Minato ?  People also falsely asume Raikage could handle Kyuubi's Yin chakra without dying. Minato performed a technique that can transport a fucking Bijuu dama,for all we know Minato could have had a greater chakra potential then Raikage. 
One thing is sure, MInato's  Shushin speed >>>> V2 Raikages speed.
Minato's Shushin was even faster then Madara's striking speed, Raikage couldnt even hit Madara with his Raiton amplified Shushin.
Jiraiya said it best,Minato is the greatest shinobi Konoha has ever produced, this means that Minato >=Hashirama >>> prime EMS Madara >= prime Hiruzen>>>>Jiraiya  >>>> Itachi >>> Sakumo.....etc


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Orochimaru beat Naruto each time they fought. He dominated the battle..





Kakashi Hatake said:


> They fought many times, we don't know who the victor is, but we can assume it was a stalemate since both of the Shinobi lived. This could mean that they couldn't beat each other. Which could mean they were equal. Note I said "could.".



By your logic Naruto should be dead because Orochimaru was stronger right ?

Raikage strongly implied his inferiority to Minato by saying that he thought "Minato was a shinobi who could not be surpassed ".

Raikage being alive doesn't mean they were equals in battle . Minato may have dominated the battles yet Raikage managed to survive somehow.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

@Face: So? I knew that?
@adee: Show me where Raikage implied that? Only thing he implied is Minato faster than him.
@Sagerafa: Databook isn't canon. We are discussing about the manga. So keep Databook out of it. This is the telegram not battledome.
@Camorra:  

Sakumo > Sannin, so how is Jiraiya higher?
Minato doesn't have a genjutsu defense and he has 0 durability feats. Not to mention he hasn't got anything which can hurt Itachi's Susano. So you should replace Minato with Itachi.


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## Csdabest (Jun 2, 2011)

16 yuears ago minato was faster than railkage


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> By your logic Naruto should be dead because Orochimaru was stronger right ?



We know Orochimaru is stronger by feats. He dominated the battle. There is a huge difference.



SuperMinato146 said:


> Raikage strongly implied his inferiority to Minato by saying that he thought "Minato was a shinobi who could not be surpassed ".



That was in past tense. His basically saying he thought Minato could never be surpassed due to the prophecy, but his thought was wrong. Since Minato did get surpassed. That in no way implies Minato > Raikage.



SuperMinato146 said:


> Raikage being alive doesn't mean they were equals in battle . Minato *may* have dominated the battles yet Raikage managed to survive somehow.



Your speculating.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> We know Orochimaru is stronger by feats. He dominated the battle. There is a huge difference.



No there isn't . You argument is that X Vs Y was a stalemate just because Y is alive but there are fights in the manga contradicting this claim .



Kakashi Hatake said:


> That was in past tense. His basically saying he thought Minato could never be surpassed due to the prophecy, but his thought was wrong. Since Minato did get surpassed. That in no way implies Minato > Raikage..



Yeah . Minato > Raikage when they fought .

He did not think that Minato was unsurpassable because of prophecy . He was having a go at Minato because he failed to deal with the Kyuubi properly .



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Your speculating.



And what exactly are you doing if I may ask ?



Csdabest said:


> 16 yuears ago minato was faster than railkage



And yet Raikage says he's the fastest "Now that Minato is no longer alive "


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> No there isn't . You argument is that X Vs Y was a stalemate just because Y is alive but there are fights in the manga contradicting this claim .



Yes there is vast difference. Unlike Minato VS Raikage battles we seen Naruto fight Orochimaru. We know why Orochimaru didn't kill Naruto. We know the battle outcome. This battle is completely different from Raikage VS Minato. Therefore its not comparable. The reason why they fought is also completely different.



SuperMinato146 said:


> Yeah . Minato > Raikage when they fought .



Based on your flawed interpretation of the manga, 



SuperMinato146 said:


> He did not think that Minato was unsurpassable because of prophecy . He was having a go at Minato because he failed to deal with the Kyuubi properly .



Yes he did think that, thats why he thought Minato wasn't surpassable. Otherwise why else would he bring in the prophecy? Why will he think Minato is unsurpassable? 



SuperMinato146 said:


> And what exactly are you doing if I may ask ?



Stating Manga facts.


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## ? (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> @Face: So? I knew that?
> @adee: Show me where Raikage implied that? Only thing he implied is Minato faster than him.
> @Sagerafa: Databook isn't canon. We are discussing about the manga. So keep Databook out of it. This is the telegram not battledome.
> @Camorra:
> ...


Minato> your favorite characters. Deal with it.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

Inu said:


> Minato> your favorite characters. Deal with it.



Raikage/Itachi isn't my favourite character. Try again.


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## ? (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Try again.


Okay..............


Inu said:


> Minato> *your* favorite characters. Deal with it.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jun 2, 2011)

/thread


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

Inu said:


> Okay..............



I knew that since chapter 1. 
Check my tier list for more info.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yes there is vast difference. Unlike Minato VS Raikage battles we seen Naruto fight Orochimaru. We know why Orochimaru didn't kill Naruto. We know the battle outcome. This battle is completely different from Raikage VS Minato. Therefore its not comparable. The reason why they fought is also completely different.





Kakashi Hatake said:


> Stating Manga facts.



Show me a panel where Minato Vs Raikage ended in a stalemate . I'll be waiting .

You are using a flawed logic to support you baseless claim .



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Based on your flawed interpretation of the manga, .





Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yes he did think that, thats why he thought Minato wasn't surpassable. Otherwise why else would he bring in the prophecy? Why will he think Minato is unsurpassable? .





He did not say " Jiraiya called him the child of prophesy and I therefore think that he is unsurpassable ".

Those two statements are using in two different contexts .

1) His battle prowess .

2) He was clearly referring to Minato's inability to deal with the Kyuubi effectively even when he was called that (child of prophecy) implying that Naruto is as bad as Minato in making good decisions . (This is something I don't agree but meh )

LOL why can't Minato be the strongest shinobi that the Raikage faced ?
You have any manga evidence pointing otherwise ?

I'm waiting for manga pages..now hurry up.



~Gesy~ said:


> /thread


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Show me a panel where Minato Vs Raikage ended in a stalemate . I'll be waiting .



Read the latest manga chapter. Raikage implied, Minato was a failure and he was surpassed. They both were at war, they fought many times, yet no one died. By feats, Raikage is stronger overall.

Minato has hype and one of his hype about the prophecy turned out to be incorrect.



SuperMinato146 said:


> You are using a flawed logic to support you baseless claim .



My claim is based on manga. Yours is based on something else.



SuperMinato146 said:


> He did not say " Jiraiya called him the child of prophesy and I therefore think that he is unsurpassable ".
> 
> Those two statements are using in two different contexts .
> 
> ...


Read the whole page. Place it in context.



SuperMinato146 said:


> LOL why can't Minato be the strongest shinobi that the Raikage faced ?
> You have any manga evidence pointing otherwise ?



Raikage fought Madara[Tobi] thats why.



SuperMinato146 said:


> I'm waiting for manga pages..now hurry up.



It will be up soon when I find them.


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## Cursed Avenger (Jun 2, 2011)

Minato Namikaze. said:


> Lol Hiraishin does not = Speed its instantaneous


 

Go back and read Madara vs Minato 

Wasn't it stated that Raikage V2 was on PAR with Minato in terms of speed. If Raikage is saying that Minato is faster, he had to be taking Hiraishin into account.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 2, 2011)

*@ Kakshi Hatake* : I am done with you . You keep repeating the same thing again and again without any concrete evidence to support your claims . And saying that my interpretation is flawed .

Congrats on being the first person to enter my ignore list. Don't ever bother quoting my posts again . Have a nice day


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## navy (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> By feats, Raikage is stronger overall.



You high bro? By what feats?

Lets see Raikage has shown monsterous strength and the lightning cloud. Lets ignore the fact he said Minato was the G.O.A.T

Minato has shown he is the faster of the two by feats (FTG)  also with summonings such as gambatuma and S/T techniques as well as analitical skills he has shown much more feats to show he is stronger over all. Not to mention his near instant Rasengan...

I can understand you saying Minato is over rated or something, but to say he's weaker then Raikage by feats is pure bullshit


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 2, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Things are kind of complicated by Minato's teleportation, which most  thought was shunshin.



whats that coming over the hill?

a shitstorm.


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## Shidoshi (Jun 2, 2011)

Did anyone ever stop to think that with Minato alive that he and Raikage *shared* the title of the Fastest Shinobi Alive, and that since Minato's death, Raikage *alone* is the fastest ninja alive?  He wouldn't have to say that statement for it to be true, and it also correlates to C's comments about Raikage and Minato, when both are compared without augmentation.

C mentions Rakage's reflexes do not fall short of Minato's -- that normally, Raikage's reflexes are at least as fast as Minato's, but get even greater when he uses his Raiton Armor.  That comment is referring to Minato and A, without using any augmentation (Hiraishin and Raiton Armor).

Raikage says that he is the fastest shinobi alive, after Minato's death, which most people are interpreting to mean that Minato was the fastest and A was the second fastest, but it could also mean that they had a shared title, *or* it could mean that unlike the purely quantitative measurements this forums uses to measure speed, Raikage was referring to he and Minato overall; him and his amped up V2 Raiton Armor and Minato with Hiraishin...

...both of which appear to be much faster (especially in Hiraishin's case) than Naruto in his current Bijuu Chakra Mode (as Tsunade was shocked that Naruto was "keeping up with Rakage's speed").

I would imagine that if two ninja are referring to speed in context of fighting, they're referring to the other's inabilty to be touched by whatever means necessary, and with Hiraiahin, Minato would be one tough shinobi to lay a hand on.

Spacetime ninjutsu is not counted as "speed" in this forum because speed is the measurement of how quickly or swiftly a person travels a given distance either by running or flying (like Tsuchikage), but spacetime teleportation works by moving outside of normal spacetime, and while in transit, the S/T user is moving without the passage of time (in the reference frame of the non-S/T ninjutsu user), divide anything by 0 (zero) and you approach infinity.

People are saying Raikage would have counted Madara as well, if he were including Hiraishin in his statement about Minato, but that necessitates Raikage having the knowledge that what Madara was using was a spacetime ninjutsu -- even Kakashi with his Sharingan needed to see Madara in action for a while (and *only* after Shino's attack failed) before coming to the conclusion that not only was he using a spacetime ninjutsu, but that it might have been functionally superior to Minato's.  Raikage made no such observation either to himself or to the others that he had any idea how Madara evaded his attack.  So he wouldn't include Madara if he didn't know Madara was using a spacetime ninjutsu to phase through his attack.


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## T-Bag (Jun 2, 2011)

I was under the impression they were equal, but now it's clear minato was faster.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 2, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Manga said Prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage and the God of Shinobi. That means Hiruzen > Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato.
> 
> You don't question it, you just accept it. Then why can't you accept this hype?



I accepted it until I had a reason to doubt it. If one day raikage got tired after a few jutsu and ran out of chakra, I would doubt that he has bijuu level chakra. Jiraiya used a shitload of jutsu without tiring. I expect raikage to never tire if he has bijuu level chakra. 

I considered Hiruzen the strongest until frankly I saw Chiyo. Then, I learned about shodai and his multiple bijuu. Then, I saw Minato's hype. Then, I saw a flashback of younger Hiruzen being fodderized by the kyuubi. Then, I saw nidaime's hype. All those things gave me pause. Contrary to what people think, I liked the Senju clan before I even found out that they were stronger than the Uchiha clan and before I found out much about shodai. I liked them because they were not the Uchiha and everyone on this board wanked to the Uchiha clan. I have nothing against Hiruzen, except that Kishi has continuously shat on him. If he does the same to raikage's chakra, I will not buy the idea that he has bijuu level chakra anymore


----------



## GreenTeaMmm (Jun 2, 2011)

Dear god this is stupid. Raikage said that now that minato was dead, he's the fastest shinboi alive. He meant one of two things. That they were equal, in which case he would be comparing his shroud with minato's shunshin. Or he meant that minato was faster, in which case he could be comparing shroud with shunshin or shroud with hiraishin.

Minato >= Raikage

Raikage = Naruto at the moment. Until Raikage shows that he is faster, that is undisputable. 

Gai isn't even a contestant in this footrace, and no one else can come close. Can you drop it, please?


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Jun 2, 2011)

8 Gated Gai still trumps all


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 2, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> I accepted it until I had a reason to doubt it. If one day raikage got tired after a few jutsu and ran out of chakra, I would doubt that he has bijuu level chakra. Jiraiya used a shitload of jutsu without tiring. I expect raikage to never tire if he has bijuu level chakra.
> 
> I considered Hiruzen the strongest until frankly I saw Chiyo. Then, I learned about shodai and his multiple bijuu. Then, I saw Minato's hype. Then, I saw a flashback of younger Hiruzen being fodderized by the kyuubi. Then, I saw nidaime's hype. All those things gave me pause. Contrary to what people think, I liked the Senju clan before I even found out that they were stronger than the Uchiha clan and before I found out much about shodai. I liked them because they were not the Uchiha and everyone on this board wanked to the Uchiha clan. I have nothing against Hiruzen, except that Kishi has continuously shat on him. If he does the same to raikage's chakra, I will not buy the idea that he has bijuu level chakra anymore



But we have never seen Prime Hiruzen. Minato's hype doesn't beat Hiruzen hype. I do agree with the rest, but its not fair to judge Hiruzen from the feats he shown when he was old/retired. The Hiruzen we saw fighting Kyuubi was still the Old Hiruzen who was retired. 

I have always been a Hokage's (Minus Tsunade) as well as Kakashi fan from the start. I only consider Hiruzen to be a top tier shinobi above all the other Hokage is because of his Prime Hype. Until we see his feats from Prime, I can't say his weaker than the other Hokage, unless the manga contradicts itself.


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## Dashido (Jun 2, 2011)

1.a Minato with tags preped>Raikage V2

1.b Raikage with no prep> Minato with no prep

2.Everybody else


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## Cold (Jun 2, 2011)

GreenTeaMmm said:


> May I ask why exactly that it matters whether or not he was talking about Hiraishin or Base speed? IF he was talking about base, then it's only fair to compare them both in base. If he is talking about a technique then its only fair to compare them both with use of a technique. Why does it matter either way?



This.  Raikage uses a technique to amplify his speed, as does Minato.  Base speed would be Raikage without his raiton armor against Minato without hirashin.

But all things included, which is what's important, is that Minato was the fastest.  Canon.

Doesn't stop Raikage from being awesome


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## Senjuclan (Jun 3, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> But we have never seen Prime Hiruzen. Minato's hype doesn't beat Hiruzen hype. I do agree with the rest, but its not fair to judge Hiruzen from the feats he shown when he was old/retired. The Hiruzen we saw fighting Kyuubi was still the Old Hiruzen who was retired.



The problem for me is this a "god" of shinobi even when dying is still able to create the nine bijuu and seal the jyuubi in the moon or he is capable of defeating Konohagakure on his own. That is "godhood". Hiruzen at the age of Jiraiya was fodderized. You people seem to think that in his prime he had some uber jutsu that he could no longer use in his 50's. I don't buy that line of argument. Prime Hiruzen is simply old Hiruzen with more chakra. A ninja in his 50's (the sannin and A), has more than enough chakra to pull off his jutsu. Hiruzen had no excuse not to shine when the kyuubi showed up.  



Kakashi Hatake said:


> I have always been a Hokage's (Minus Tsunade) as well as Kakashi fan from the start. I only consider Hiruzen to be a top tier shinobi above all the other Hokage is because of his Prime Hype. Until we see his feats from Prime, I can't say his weaker than the other Hokage, unless the manga contradicts itself.



I am a HUGE hokage fan. However, I just don't see how Hiruzen could be stronger than the man who perfectly controlled several bijuu or the man whose talent knows no bound or the necromancer with space-time ninjutsu. He could be stronger but I doubt it. I doubt it because Kishi has a tendency to exagerate shit


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## HawkMan (Jun 3, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> Actually, your opinion is not supported by the manga. Shii was comparing raikage's REFLEXES to Minato's. Not his body speed.


Ugh, I tire of repeating myself. Apologies for the delay in response, as I missed this-and Odlam too it seems. 

Reflexes and kneaded chakra for the shunshin no jutsu are the limters on movement speed, don't you agree. So when the author states that Raikage's reflexes are beyond that of Minato's and his chakra levels are near Bijuu levels-whose shunshin do you think is faster??

I mean, come on...clearly Raikage's movement speed is beyond Minato's capabilities. Hiraishin and the rapidity with which he executes it makes Minato the fastest character in the manga to date.


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## dungsi27 (Jun 3, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Clearly you don't understand what context means.
> 
> Out of context.
> 
> ...



Ok listen to what I have to say:

A proves B.Therefore A is the premise and B is the conclusion.

And in critical thinking,I was taught that in order to refute a point sometimes I dont even need to look at the conclusion.All I have to do is to refute the premise and then the whole system collapses.

Now basically what did I do?I took your premise out and then showed you how silly it was.

ANd therefore,you whole arguement just collapsed.

About V1 and V2,have you read the part of my post about it?


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## icyBankai (Jun 3, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Ok listen to what I have to say:
> 
> A proves B.Therefore A is the premise and B is the conclusion.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't bother arguing with these modern day geniuses.

They just spend hours and hours trying to analyze every single little detail and use crafty ways to bend them so that their favorite characters get to shine.

I'll merely take it as face value. Minato > Raikage. 

Raikage said Minato cannot be surpassed. I'll take his words over some forum nerd who posts nonstop.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 3, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Ugh, I tire of repeating myself. Apologies for the delay in response, as I missed this-and Odlam too it seems.
> 
> Reflexes and kneaded chakra for the shunshin no jutsu are the limters on movement speed, don't you agree. So when the author states that Raikage's reflexes are beyond that of Minato's and his chakra levels are near Bijuu levels-whose shunshin do you think is faster??
> 
> I mean, come on...clearly Raikage's movement speed is beyond Minato's capabilities.* Hiraishin and the rapidity with which he executes it makes Minato the fastest character in the manga to date.*



Wait, people are assuming that Raikage is not including Harashin?


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## dungsi27 (Jun 3, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Wait, people are assuming that Raikage is not including Harashin?



Lol where have you been lately?There were even 2 opposite threads dedicated to that.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 3, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Ugh, I tire of repeating myself. Apologies for the delay in response, as I missed this-and Odlam too it seems.
> 
> Reflexes and kneaded chakra for the shunshin no jutsu are the limters on movement speed, don't you agree. So when the author states that Raikage's reflexes are beyond that of Minato's and his chakra levels are near Bijuu levels-whose shunshin do you think is faster??
> 
> I mean, come on...clearly Raikage's movement speed is beyond Minato's capabilities. Hiraishin and the rapidity with which he executes it makes Minato the fastest character in the manga to date.



No. I do not agree. You seem to have convinced yourself of this fallacy and somehow you think Kishi supports you. Shunshin is a ninjutsu, it is not a measure of body speed, otherwise known as "base" speed. Lee is super fast but he does not use shunshin. So, your argument is simply wrong. Furthermore, you should know your argument is without basis because Madara uses space-time ninjutsu and reflexes heightened enough to avoid the raikage. Yet, the raikage does not consider him to be superior in speed


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## Shidoshi (Jun 3, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> No. I do not agree. You seem to have convinced yourself of this fallacy and somehow you think Kishi supports you. Shunshin is a ninjutsu, it is not a measure of body speed, otherwise known as "base" speed. Lee is super fast but he does not use shunshin. So, your argument is simply wrong. Furthermore, you should know your argument is without basis because Madara uses space-time ninjutsu and reflexes heightened enough to avoid the raikage. Yet, the raikage does not consider him to be superior in speed


Raikage has never shown knowledge that what he was doing was spacetime ninjutsu in the first place.  Madara didn't disappear (like Minato did when using Hiraishin), he phased himself through Raikage's attack.

Even Kakashi, who has a Sharingan, and who's seen Hiraishin in action more than once, and had the detection backup of another doujutsu user, didn't figure out what Madara was doing until _after_ he negated Shino's attack...and even then, had a hard time believing it.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 3, 2011)

Shidoshi said:


> Raikage has never shown knowledge that what he was doing was spacetime ninjutsu in the first place.  Madara didn't disappear (like Minato did when using Hiraishin), he phased himself through Raikage's attack.
> 
> Even Kakashi, who has a Sharingan, and who's seen Hiraishin in action more than once, and had the detection backup of another doujutsu user, didn't figure out what Madara was doing until _after_ he negated Shino's attack...and even then, had a hard time believing it.




Here even Temari realizes Madara's possesses S/T powers.  You telling me Raikage wouldn't?  Not possible.

Link removed

Madara uses S/T to vanish right before the Raikage.  He is no longer in the range of sensors like many times before.

Link removed


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## Senjuclan (Jun 3, 2011)

Shidoshi said:


> Raikage has never shown knowledge that what he was doing was spacetime ninjutsu in the first place.  Madara didn't disappear (like Minato did when using Hiraishin), he phased himself through Raikage's attack.
> 
> Even Kakashi, who has a Sharingan, and who's seen Hiraishin in action more than once, and had the detection backup of another doujutsu user, didn't figure out what Madara was doing until _after_ he negated Shino's attack...and even then, had a hard time believing it.



Final Jutsu answered you.


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## HawkMan (Jun 3, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> No. I do not agree. You seem to have convinced yourself of this fallacy and somehow you think Kishi supports you. Shunshin is a ninjutsu, it is not a measure of body speed, otherwise known as "base" speed. Lee is super fast but he does not use shunshin. So, your argument is simply wrong. Furthermore, you should know your argument is without basis because Madara uses space-time ninjutsu and reflexes heightened enough to avoid the raikage. Yet, the raikage does not consider him to be superior in speed


You intimate I derived my assertions absent merit, which is puzzling indeed. 

Shunshin enhances body speed, how fast your legs can carry you. While other elements are involved, the important ones being chakra and the controlled speed-reflexes. Raikage with his Bijuu-level chakra and unmatched reflexes is the fastest person bereft of a Jykukan. 

Those elements are well-supported within this manga, deny them and I'll kindly refresh your memory. Your claim my argument is wrong on the basis that shunshin is a ninjutu. That's not even a fucking point, Lee is fast so my point is invalid? Because Raikage never spoke of Madara, thus he isn't speaking of Space/Time jutsus?

Where the fuck is this logic coming from? And you call my assertions baseless? Holy Fucking Shit.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 3, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> You intimate I derived my assertions absent merit, which is puzzling indeed.



Only puzzling because you have convinced yourself that you are right when you are not 



HawkMan said:


> Shunshin enhances body speed, how fast your legs can carry you. While other elements are involved, the important ones being chakra and the controlled speed-reflexes. Raikage with his Bijuu-level chakra and unmatched reflexes is the fastest person bereft of a Jykukan.



Unnecessary repetition of the obvious. Kishi does not view speed the same way you do. Read the introduction to the databook. When he considers speed to determine speed stats, he excludes shunshin. The reason being that shunshin is a ninjutsu 



HawkMan said:


> Those elements are well-supported within this manga, deny them and I'll kindly refresh your memory. Your claim my argument is wrong on the basis that shunshin is a ninjutu. That's not even a fucking point, Lee is fast so my point is invalid? Because Raikage never spoke of Madara, thus he isn't speaking of Space/Time jutsus?



It is a point the author has brought up when he considers assigning speed stats to his characters. Kishi's point of view is more authorative than yours. Raikage not speaking of Madara's space-time jutsu leaves us with two options (1) he is wrong because Madara is faster or (2) you are wrong in your understanding



HawkMan said:


> Where the fuck is this logic coming from? And you call my assertions baseless? Holy Fucking Shit.



MY assertions are based on the mangaka's statements. Yours are nothing but a creation of your overractive mind.


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## HawkMan (Jun 4, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> Only puzzling because you have convinced yourself that you are right when you are not
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You claim I'm incorrect and without basis yet you neglect to refute anything I've stated. 


Here's your argument in a nutshell:

The author doesn't view speed in the manner you fabricated, thus you're incorrect.​
Bull. Fucking. Shit. 

You've got nothing, so you're making up the lamest argument. Come back when you actually have a fucking counter. You know, when you can consider my argument and show why it's incorrect. Not when you can dance around a subject by ignoring the salient points.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 4, 2011)

Senju Clan said:
			
		

> Raikage not speaking of Madara's space-time jutsu leaves us with two options (1) he is wrong because Madara is faster or (2) you are wrong in your understanding





> Furthermore, you should know your argument is without basis because Madara uses space-time ninjutsu and reflexes heightened enough to avoid the raikage. Yet, the raikage does not consider him to be superior in speed



I am fucking amazed at how you'd think Madara phasing through attacks would be seen by _any single person_ as a "speed feat." 

You think when he punches Madara and goes right through him, he jumps back and exclaims "Holy shit dude I'm not the fastest shinobi!!! Oh my god!!"

He doesn't give a darn about it. It's not "speed" in the manner that he, or anybody I've seen on this forum compare, ever. And Hiraishin IS.

You whole argument is splitting hairs. You've deluded yourself into thinking focusing on "absolute" factors like feats or databook stat definitions is the smartest way to interpret a simple shounen manga, and it's fucking hilarious.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 4, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Wait, people are assuming that Raikage is not including Harashin?



It's pretty impressive, isn't it?


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Jun 4, 2011)

So Madra's S/T technique isn't counted in for speed now ?

I am sure Zetsu said something on the lines of "Madara moving at light speed " .

And are you guys implying that Raikage failed to realise that Minato waa teleporting ?

He saw Madara save Sasuke at a good speed . He saw him phasing . He saw him teleport off and still couldn't comprehend it ?

Deal with it guys . If the Raikage was including S/T users Tobi would definitely have been on the list .


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## shintebukuro (Jun 4, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> So Madra's S/T technique isn't counted in for speed now ?
> 
> I am sure Zetsu said something on the lines of "Madara moving at light speed " .
> 
> ...



Madara's teleport is not fast. We've never seen him in a fight moving like how Minato has. Minato can drop something and before it hits the ground he is behind you with a kunai to your neck.

In Kakashi Gaiden, before Minato fought 50 rock shinobi, one Konoha ninja told another "Don't even blink or you'll miss it all." Nothing like that is said about Madara...

Hiraishin is the fastest thing in the manga. It's what Minato is famous for. It's where he got his nickname.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Jun 4, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> Madara's teleport is not fast. We've never seen him in a fight moving like how Minato has. Minato can drop something and before it hits the ground he is behind you with a kunai to your neck.



Madara's teleporting is not fast ?



That seems fast to me atleast .

I am sure Madara can travel the same distance that Minato did faster than the Raikage .



shintebukuro said:


> In Kakashi Gaiden, before Minato fought 50 rock shinobi, one Konoha ninja told another "Don't even blink or you'll miss it all." Nothing like that is said about Madara....



I tried to use the same argument to show that Minato's reflexes > Base Raikages . And many posters started arguing that "That statement is obviously false " 



shintebukuro said:


> Hiraishin is the fastest thing in the manga. It's what Minato is famous for. It's where he got his nickname.



And his Shunshin lived up to that hype .


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## nightmaremage99 (Jun 4, 2011)

Madara's S/T jutsu never got the same speed feeling that Minato's Hiraishin got.

We clearly see Madara get warped into his eye when he uses his jutsu, and the same is true for those that he warps.

In comparison Minato just disappears and re-appears elsewhere when he uses Hiraishin. Instantly.

I would say that, in terms of practicality, the two are one and the same. Madara and whoever he warps with his S/T are invulnerable while they're being actively warped. That can explain why Sasuke survived getting smashed by a solid block made of chakra.

Like-wise, Minato will instantly hiraishin out the moment the block is on top of him.

End result - Both are safe.

In terms of speed though, Minato's hiraishin far surpasses Madara's S/T jutsu. I mean, Madara was surprised at the speed of the activation of hiraishin when he initially tried to warp Minato. In addition, Minato was able to hiraishin out of getting warped, which completely surprised Madara.


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## meenpeoplesuck23 (Jun 4, 2011)

~Gesy~ said:


> can we just say minato is the greatest shinobi who ever lived and close this case.
> 
> the guy is flawless, I love him but he was way too perfect



Agreed.  Case Closed.  I heard someone post this and I agree --- Minato works much better as a legend, than an actual character.  He would be boring to see all the time since he really does seem "perfect."


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## Senjuclan (Jun 4, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> You claim I'm incorrect and without basis yet you neglect to refute anything I've stated.



Funny how I quote EVERYTHING you say and respond to it. You just spew a wall of text and then turn around and say that I neglect to refute anything you have stated. Hypocrisy much?



HawkMan said:


> Here's your argument in a nutshell:
> 
> The author doesn't view speed in the manner you fabricated, thus you're incorrect.​
> Bull. Fucking. Shit.



 WHAT? That is not my argument. MY argument in a nutshell goes something like this:

IF hiraishin counts as a speed feat, then it goes without saying that Madara's space-time migration should count as such as well. The fact that raikage does not count it, disproves your claims. Furthermore, Shii compared Raikage's reflexes with Minato's, which weakens your claims even more​



HawkMan said:


> You've got nothing, so you're making up the lamest argument. Come back when you actually have a fucking counter. You know, when you can consider my argument and show why it's incorrect. Not when you can dance around a subject by ignoring the salient points.



You are a funny kid. I have countered your argument. You have not countered mine. How about you come back when you have something new to bring. Good bye now



shintebukuro said:


> I am fucking amazed at how you'd think Madara phasing through attacks would be seen by _any single person_ as a "speed feat."



"I am fucking amazed" at how you can't read simple shit. I am talking about Madara's space-time jutsu. You know the same jutsu that he used to disappear right before Raikage's eyes. The same jutsu that allows him to move at the same "speed" as Minato  



shintebukuro said:


> You think when he punches Madara and goes right through him, he jumps back and exclaims "Holy shit dude I'm not the fastest shinobi!!! Oh my god!!"



Silly. Read above



shintebukuro said:


> He doesn't give a darn about it. It's not "speed" in the manner that he, or anybody I've seen on this forum compare, ever. And Hiraishin IS.



Tell that to Minato



shintebukuro said:


> You whole argument is splitting hairs. You've deluded yourself into thinking focusing on "absolute" factors like feats or databook stat definitions is the smartest way to interpret a simple shounen manga, and it's fucking hilarious.



Your whole argument is bullshit. You have deluded yourself into focusing on your bias and can't see simple syllogism



shintebukuro said:


> Madara's teleport is not fast. We've never seen him in a fight moving like how Minato has. Minato can drop something and before it hits the ground he is behind you with a kunai to your neck.



Funny how Madara was able to keep up with hiraishin and Minato thought he could not leave him behind



shintebukuro said:


> Hiraishin is the fastest thing in the manga. It's what Minato is famous for. It's where he got his nickname.



Yet Madara's space-time jutsu can keep up with it.



nightmaremage99 said:


> Madara's S/T jutsu never got the same speed feeling that Minato's Hiraishin got.



Not even when Zetsu freaking comments on Madara moving at the speed of light? Not even when Minato says that he jumps with hiraishin Madara is just going to follow him?



nightmaremage99 said:


> We clearly see Madara get warped into his eye when he uses his jutsu, and the same is true for those that he warps.
> 
> In comparison Minato just disappears and re-appears elsewhere when he uses Hiraishin. Instantly.



And Madara can sense him and reappear behind him instantly!!!! What is your point?



nightmaremage99 said:


> In terms of speed though, Minato's hiraishin far surpasses Madara's S/T jutsu. I mean, Madara was surprised at the speed of the activation of hiraishin when he initially tried to warp Minato. In addition, Minato was able to hiraishin out of getting warped, which completely surprised Madara.



The speed is comparable, the only difference is reaction speed. Minato has superior reaction speed, which enabled him to react faster than Madara. However, when they both use space-time ninjutsu, Madara was able to find Minato within split seconds


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## hitokugutsu (Jun 4, 2011)

Senjuclan owning this thread 

No need for me to intervene


----------



## Cold (Jun 4, 2011)

Just want to be clear about what's being argued currently...

One side is saying that Raikage in V2 or whatever is faster than Minato WITHOUT hirashin, and the other side is saying that Minato is faster than Raikage in V2 without hirashin.

Is that correct?


----------



## Dashido (Jun 4, 2011)

Hes the fastest...Minato is dead..who cares.

Raikage V2

Raikage V1=Rm naruto/Gated Gai/V2Bee

Everybody else


----------



## Hexa (Jun 4, 2011)

Rather than there needing to be a reason why the Raikage _would_ include Hiraishin, I think there needs to be a reason why the Raikage _wouldn't_.  That really should be the stance.


----------



## Xerces (Jun 4, 2011)

This chapter did not confirm that Minato was faster than Raikage. It only confirmed that Raikage was not faster, whoever it was implied that they were equals in terms of speed.


----------



## dungsi27 (Jun 4, 2011)

Xerces said:


> This chapter did not confirm that Minato was faster than Raikage. It only confirmed that Raikage was not faster, whoever it was implied that they were equals in terms of speed.



Ive just read your post,and there are some problem in it.

1)The highest known perceivable of human eye is not to be applied in this manga.Your figure comes from the real world,in which human has certain limits.This is a manga where people split fire from their mounths,jump from trees to trees,crushing rocks like its nothing.Applying it in this kind of situation is wrong anyway,as the manga never said anything about Yamatos eyes fell to catch up with Sasukes movement its just his physical body fell to react to it.

2)Minato used hiraishin,not shunsin.

3)All of your perceived distances are wrong,as you only measure them in the flat 2-dimension manga page,not the real 3-d world.Please note that in the real world the angle dictates the perceived distance between the two objects.For example,the 6cm you got was completely wrong.

4)Please have a look again at the Minato page,you can see that the Rock fodder '!?'(i.e. felt) Minato BEFORE that bag touched the ground.The bag was only used to show Rin's perception of the technique,but that Rock Fodder,who was directly involved in the process of the tech,felt it better.

5)And last but not least,it took Minatos over 3 seconds to fell to the ground?Seriously I havent checked your math on that but have you ever dropped an empty bag?I wouldnt say it 3 seconds I I were you.

That was a nice try though.I like people who put this much effort into the manga.


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## HawkMan (Jun 5, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> Funny how I quote EVERYTHING you say and respond to it. You just spew a wall of text and then turn around and say that I neglect to refute anything you have stated. Hypocrisy much?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shi's statement is a cornerstone for my argument, it's a direct comparison between Minato and Raikage's respective speeds. Why would reflexes be important, and why does Shi note, 

"It's a wonder they've kept up with Raikage for so long, but now he's using the shroud...they don't stand a chance"​
Or something along those lines. The emphasis being that Shrouded Raikage would move quicker than his opponents could keep up with. Why? Reflexes. 


> If seen by an ordinary person, it would seem as if the user has teleported... *In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point*.


 -Shunshin Databook entry. 

So quantity of chakra and the ability to cope with such speeds are the determinants of Shunshins effectiveness. RM Naruto with the Kyuubi's chakra was not able to control his movement-resulting in personal injury. There are many examples. 

The point is, Shii's statement all but states that Shrouded Raikage exceeds Minato's speed. 



Gottheim said:


> It's actually pretty clear. Base Raikage is as fast as Minato (presumably Minato was a notorious speedster, even without that Hiraishin thing), but the Raiton Shroud gives him disgustingly superhuman speed to top even that.
> 
> It makes sense after all: anyone who can move faster than the Sharingan can see (not just for hand seals, everything) has to be mind-numbingly fast.
> ----------
> ...



^That's Gottheim, cosigned by Shonensuki. 

Now, we have Raikage stating Minato to be faster than he. What does that mean? It can only mean he's including Hiraishin. Why wouldn't he?

Why would Raikage not include Hiraishin when we already know his shrouded form exceeds Minato's raw speed? Why wouldn't Raikage include Hiraishin when that's what gave Minato his notoriety?


----------



## Judecious (Jun 5, 2011)

Xerces said:


> This chapter did not confirm that Minato was faster than Raikage. It only confirmed that Raikage was not faster, whoever it was implied that they were equals in terms of speed.



What? Raikage clearly said Minato was faster


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Rather than there needing to be a reason why the Raikage _would_ include Hiraishin, I think there needs to be a reason why the Raikage _wouldn't_.  That really should be the stance.



simple as that. 


Minato is slightly faster than Madara in terms of reaction speed. Its not even a noticable difference. Raikage is also faster than Madara, by his own admission. So even if you for some reason exclude hirashin, Minato and Raikage can't be far off. But it is clear that Raikage was talking about Minato as a whole, not bar Hirashin. There is no reason to assume that.


----------



## Nic (Jun 5, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Rather than there needing to be a reason why the Raikage _would_ include Hiraishin, I think there needs to be a reason why the Raikage _wouldn't_.  That really should be the stance.



Then why not incorporate Madara's S/T as well like many have already mentioned?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 5, 2011)

Nic said:


> Then why not incorporate Madara's S/T as well like many have already mentioned?



Because Raikage doesn't know how fast Madara's S/T.


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## Cold (Jun 5, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Because Raikage doesn't know how fast Madara's S/T.



Yea, he's seen it like, what, once at the kage summit?  And that was when he attacked Madara and just went through him.  Then Madara warps over to Karen and sucks her in to heal Sasuke.

Phasing through Raikage's attack isn't a speed feat.  Saving Sasuke maybe, but is that enough for Raikage to say he's faster than him?  And warping over to Karen?  Eh.

Plus, Raikage had several fights with Minato over the course of his life.  He could say with certainty that Minato was faster.  But he's had only one run in with Madara where Madara didn't even bother evading the attack, he just let it slip through him.


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## sinjin long (Jun 5, 2011)

Cold said:


> Yea, he's seen it like, what, once at the kage summit?  And that was when he attacked Madara and just went through him.  Then Madara warps over to Karen and sucks her in to heal Sasuke.
> 
> Phasing through Raikage's attack isn't a speed feat.  Saving Sasuke maybe, but is that enough for Raikage to say he's faster than him?  And warping over to Karen?  Eh.
> 
> Plus, Raikage had several fights with Minato over the course of his life.  He could say with certainty that Minato was faster.  But he's had only one run in with Madara where Madara didn't even bother evading the attack, he just let it slip through him.



he's fought minato,so he knows what S/T jutsu are/do,and he has seen that madara possess a S/t jutsu as well correct?

so knowing what they are & do,and that madara has one,it kinda puts a damper on his "i'm the fastest" claim, now doesn't it?

unless raikage is a moron who just forgot about madara's S/T 

or

he didn't include S/T in his boast about being the fastest.

this is basically what is at the heart of this argument.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 5, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Shi's statement is a cornerstone for my argument, it's a direct comparison between Minato and Raikage's respective speeds. Why would reflexes be important, and why does Shi note,
> 
> "It's a wonder they've kept up with Raikage for so long, but now he's using the shroud...they don't stand a chance"​
> Or something along those lines. The emphasis being that Shrouded Raikage would move quicker than his opponents could keep up with. Why? Reflexes.
> ...



You don't read my answer and just repeat your same tired argument.  You have already said all those things. Attaching links does not answer my question, does it. let me help you

IF MINATO IS ONLY FASTER DUE TO SPACE-TIME NINJUTSU, AND MADARA HAS A SPACE-TIME NINJUTSU THAT CAN KEEP UP WITH HIRAISHIN AND RAIKAGE HAS SEEN THIS SPACE-TIME NINJUTSU, WHY THEN DOES RAIKAGE NOT COUNT IT AS BEING SUPERIOR SPEED TO HIM?



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Because Raikage doesn't know how fast Madara's S/T.



Sure, he does not know Madara can disappear out of sensor's range at will nor does he know that his space-time migration can be activated faster than his raiton powered attacks.


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## blacksword (Jun 5, 2011)

> Then why not incorporate Madara's S/T as well like many have already mentioned?


Madara's phasing is not an S/T jutsu.


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## machiavelli2009 (Jun 5, 2011)

Raikage and minato have equal reflexes. minato is faster thanks to hirashin. Hirashin is confused by most of the ninja world for shunshin
please see my most recent tread.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 5, 2011)

blacksword said:


> Madara's phasing is not an S/T jutsu.



Not according to Kishi. Kakashi saw it once and called it space-time ninjutsu superior to hiraishin. Furthermore, Madara can also move from one place to another a la hiraishin. Raikage saw him do that.


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## sinjin long (Jun 5, 2011)

blacksword said:


> Madara's phasing is not an S/T jutsu.



not talking about the phasing,talking about the "hoover vortex"


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## blacksword (Jun 5, 2011)

> Not according to Kishi. Kakashi saw it once and called it space-time ninjutsu superior to hiraishin. Furthermore, Madara can also move from one place to another a la hiraishin. Raikage saw him do that.


Kakashi saw it when Tobi teleported from one place to another. Phasing isn't part of his s/t jutsu.



> not talking about the phasing,talking about the "hoover vortex"


and?


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## machiavelli2009 (Jun 5, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> You don't read my answer and just repeat your same tired argument.  You have already said all those things. Attaching links does not answer my question, does it. let me help you
> 
> IF MINATO IS ONLY FASTER DUE TO SPACE-TIME NINJUTSU, AND MADARA HAS A SPACE-TIME NINJUTSU THAT CAN KEEP UP WITH HIRAISHIN AND RAIKAGE HAS SEEN THIS SPACE-TIME NINJUTSU, WHY THEN DOES RAIKAGE NOT COUNT IT AS BEING SUPERIOR SPEED TO HIM?
> 
> ...




u seem to be implying that because madara has a space time jutsu and minato has one that they must be moving at the same speed. we already know minato S/t jutsu is faster. 
What makes minato faster than anyone is the fact that he has reflexes on par with raikage add this to the fact that once he has processed information quicker than anyone but raikage he can instantly be somewhere else to avoid an attack. Also note that there is no proof raikage knows of hirashin, in fact even minato students confused hirashin for shunshin.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 5, 2011)

machiavelli2009 said:


> u seem to be implying that because madara has a space time jutsu and minato has one that they must be moving at the same speed. we already know minato S/t jutsu is faster.



Their space-time ninjutsu are roughly equal in speed has Madara was able to follow Minato before he could even move when he hit the ground. However, Minato has faster reflexes.  



machiavelli2009 said:


> What makes minato faster than anyone is the fact that he has reflexes on par with raikage add this to the fact that once he has processed information quicker than anyone but raikage he can instantly be somewhere else to avoid an attack. Also note that there is no proof raikage knows of hirashin, in fact even minato students confused hirashin for shunshin.



The point is that Madara's reflexes are enough to react to raikage's shrouded speed. Furthermore, raikage has seen him teleport to another location instantaneously. Raikage knows he can't move instantaneously, therefore it makes no sense for him to claim to be faster than a man he has seen teleport through space-time ninjutsu


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## machiavelli2009 (Jun 5, 2011)

Raikage might not have had knowledge of hirashin. Rin, minato student didnt know of it. Madara, who has been aizenized didnt know everything about hirashin. I think it is the lack of knowledge on raikage part that made him call minato the fastest.


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## Hexa (Jun 5, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> The point is that Madara's reflexes are enough to react to raikage's shrouded speed. Furthermore, raikage has seen him teleport to another location instantaneously.


Well, he saw him disappear into a S/T hole once.  I don't think that's enough for him to re-evaluate his stance that he is the fastest since Minato.


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## Cold (Jun 5, 2011)

sinjin long said:


> he's fought minato,so he knows what S/T jutsu are/do,and he has seen that madara possess a S/t jutsu as well correct?
> 
> so knowing what they are & do,and that madara has one,it kinda puts a damper on his "i'm the fastest" claim, now doesn't it?
> 
> ...



But Madara's S/T jutsu doesn't work like Minato's.  Minato can instantly be wherever his tags are.  Madara has to absorb himself first (as we learned during his fight with Konan), which probably sends him to that box dimension of his, and then he can "unwarp" himself where he chooses to be.  It means that there is possibly a delay in the time it takes Madara to get wherever he is warping to.  This would be a small issue over long distances, but over short distances there may be people that would be faster than him, like Minato or Raikage in his shrouded mode.

So there should be a third option:  Since he doesn't know the mechanics of how Madara's jutsu works, he didn't jump to the conclusion that Madara must be faster than him just because he has an S/T jutsu.  And if Madara does indeed have to warp himself back to his box dimension like I am *speculatin*g, Raikage could still be faster than Madara even though Madara can teleport.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jun 5, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Well, he saw him disappear into a S/T hole once.  I don't think that's enough for him to re-evaluate his stance that he is the fastest since Minato.



Speed = Distance / Time. If Raikage sees Madara moving by bypassing time and does not re-evaluate his stance that he is the fastest since Minato, then he is a fool. How can one believe to be faster than one who does not take time to teleport. Furthermore, if we have to nit pick and say that Raikage did not re-evaluate because he needs more experience with Madara's jutsu, then how can we be sure that he is right when he claims to be the fastest? I mean, it's not like he met all the ninjas in the world and measured their speed against his. Kishi is speaking through the Raikage. He is either right or wrong. If he is right, then he excludes S/T because of Madara. Otherwise, he is wrong and he is a fool



Cold said:


> But Madara's S/T jutsu doesn't work like Minato's.  Minato can instantly be wherever his tags are.  Madara has to absorb himself first (as we learned during his fight with Konan), which probably sends him to that box dimension of his, and then he can "unwarp" himself where he chooses to be.  It means that there is possibly a delay in the time it takes Madara to get wherever he is warping to.  This would be a small issue over long distances, but over short distances there may be people that would be faster than him, like Minato or Raikage in his shrouded mode.



In case you missed it, Madara when he was trailing Minato, moved so fast that Minato did not have time to get up from the ground. His space-time jutsu is just as fast as hiraishin


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## Summers (Jun 5, 2011)

This thread is large.Could Someone give me the Summary of the 2 or 3 Main opposing views.


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## Naru-Ichi (Jun 5, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> In case you missed it, Madara when he was trailing Minato, moved so fast that* Minato did not have time to get up from the ground*. His space-time jutsu is just as fast as hiraishin



That doesn't prove Madara's S/T jutsu = Hiraishin in speed. I mean once Minato landed and had a thought then Madara appeared, and Minato was on his feet before Madara seemed to fully phase in.

But I agree with your argument as a whole.


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## Sniffers (Jun 5, 2011)

Raikage's speed is just that. It doesn't get boosted by the Raiton Shroud. His _reflexes_ get boosted. The Raiton Shroud allows him to _react_ fast enough with Shunshin no Jutsu to dodge the near instant Amaterasu.

Raikage's topspeed = Raiton Shroud V2 Raikage's top speed
Raikage's reflex speed < Raiton Shroud V2 Raikage's reflex speed

Minato's top speed being higher than Raikage's isn't so far fetched at all. He's just the speed genius type, so he's a little better at that than the rest.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 5, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> That doesn't prove Madara's S/T jutsu = Hiraishin in speed. I mean once Minato landed and had a thought then Madara appeared, and Minato was on his feet before Madara seemed to fully phase in.
> 
> But I agree with your argument as a whole.



I am not sure what you are talking about:
1. Here is Minato still on the ground as he engages Madara in conversation
2. You seem to forget that Madara had to sense minato and follow him. So, Madara is able to sense and follow Minato in the time it takes Minato to think ONE thought. Take away the time Madara had to sense Minato (he can't possibly sense him when he is in a dimensional void) and Madara's space-time jutsu allows him to travel at pretty much the speed of hiraishin


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## Haruhifan21 (Jun 5, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> I am not sure what you are talking about:
> 1. Here is Minato still on the ground as he engages Madara in conversation
> 2. You seem to forget that Madara had to sense minato and follow him. So, Madara is able to sense and follow Minato in the time it takes Minato to think ONE thought. Take away the time Madara had to sense Minato (he can't possibly sense him when he is in a dimensional void) and Madara's space-time jutsu allows him to travel at pretty much the speed of hiraishin



To one page before that second link... does your "speed" (as in Madara saying "he's fast") equal "Distance / time"?


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## Naru-Ichi (Jun 5, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> I am not sure what you are talking about:
> 1. Here is Minato still on the ground as he engages Madara in conversation
> 2. You seem to forget that Madara had to sense minato and follow him. So, Madara is able to sense and follow Minato in the time it takes Minato to think ONE thought. Take away the time Madara had to sense Minato (he can't possibly sense him when he is in a dimensional void) and Madara's space-time jutsu allows him to travel at pretty much the speed of hiraishin



I was more so talking about this page where Minato was already on his feet (well more so on one of his feet)

follow

But the sensing and teleporting is a good argument. Though the time it took for Madara to do that compared to the time Minato landed, turned over some, and had that thought is ambiguous.

EDIT: I think a better argument would have been Madara's speech + sensing + teleporting compared to Minato's, so I'm inclined to agree with you (though I still give a slight edge to Hiraishin in speed).

Not that any of that matters since your argument (i.e. Raikage being slower than Madara using his S/T...) still stands either way.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 5, 2011)

rainyrabbit said:


> To one page before that second link... does your "speed" (as in Madara saying "he's fast") equal "Distance / time"?



This is what people get confused over. In the manga, there are three types of speed:

1. Reflexes
2. Natural Body Speed
3. Chakra-Enhanced Speed

Madara was referring to Minato's reflexes. Both Madara and Minato were using a time-space jutsu, which bypasses time and therefore falls outside of the distance/time construct. However, Minato reacted faster than Madara could activate his jutsu. That is a testatemnt to his reaction speed, his reflexes



Naru-Ichi said:


> I was more so talking about this page where Minato was already on his feet (well more so on one of his feet)
> 
> follow
> 
> ...



Sounds like we agree enough to not continue arguing.


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## Summers (Jun 5, 2011)

I never though it was possible to have a debate on the "speed" of S/T jutsu.
I think thats whats being debated?

Or maybe everyone is talking about speed of Initiation-the time it takes to activate the Jutsu/set up the Jutsu.


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## ovanz (Jun 5, 2011)

If you think raikage is fast now, wait till he use the same kind of suppositories the horses use. 

(And i don't think there's have been a horse summon in naruto yet. That's too bad. Where the hell the missing ninjas are supposed to make their illegal summon's race?)


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## shintebukuro (Jun 6, 2011)

Senjuclan said:
			
		

> "I am fucking amazed" at how you can't read simple shit. I am talking about Madara's space-time jutsu. You know the same jutsu that he used to disappear  right before Raikage's eyes. The same jutsu that allows him to move at the same "speed" as Minato



Oh, you mean the jutsu he used where right after every ninja exclaimed "SOOO FAAAASSSSTTT!!!"

Oh that's right. No ninja has ever made a comment on his S/T jutsu being super fast.

But that's crazy right? Because he's the fastest guy in the world, right? So weird that no one seems to notice it.

Instead, guys like Raikage or Minato who fucking outspeed people they fight are given that title. Funny!



> Tell that to Minato



He says that Madara will follow him, which is not a comparison of speed between the 2 shinobi. I'm sure Zetsu could follow Minato around Konoha too, albeit it a bit slower.



> Funny how Madara was able to keep up  with hiraishin and Minato thought he could not leave him behind



Zetsu could have done the same exact thing. It's not speed that is applicable in battle, but rather in travelling.

Hey, wasn't Zetsu the guy who said Raikage was "too fast"? That's weird considering Zetsu is much "faster" than Raikage because he can travel long distances in shorter time.

Unless he was referring to speed *in the context of a fight* or something. Hmmmmmm.



> Speed = Distance / Time. If Raikage sees Madara moving by bypassing time and does not re-evaluate his stance that he is the fastest since Minato, then he is a fool.



Maybe his interpretations of speed are not based on definitions and calculations (like the foundation of your method of interpreting a comic book), but rather as clear-cut differences in ability he sees right in front of his face?

Maybe the speed he is talking about is speed in FIGHTS? Maybe he doesn't care how fast Madara can move inbetween villages?

Maybe when he sees a guy in front of him instantly teleport behind him, he interprets said person as being faster than him? And meanwhile, the guy he sees teleport to travel long distances, he may not see as "fast?"

This argument is just mind-boggling. I cannot wait until this shit settles down so I can bring it back up when people tell me there aren't raging Minato fanboys.


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## hitokugutsu (Jun 7, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> Raikage's speed is just that. It doesn't get boosted by the Raiton Shroud. His _reflexes_ get boosted. The Raiton Shroud allows him to _react_ fast enough with Shunshin no Jutsu to dodge the near instant Amaterasu.
> 
> *Raikage's topspeed = Raiton Shroud V2 Raikage's top speed
> Raikage's reflex speed < Raiton Shroud V2 Raikage's reflex speed*
> ...



This post contains truth. Raiton shroud was indeed said to increase his reflexes, not his speed. So Minato could still be faster then Raikage in his V2


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 7, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> This post contains truth. Raiton shroud was indeed said to increase his reflexes, not his speed. So Minato could still be faster then Raikage in his V2



I'm of the opinion that the Raikage uses his Raiton shroud (i.e an increase in reflexes) to move safely at godly speed .


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## posternojutsu (Jun 7, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Shi's statement is a cornerstone for my argument, it's a direct comparison between Minato and Raikage's respective speeds. Why would reflexes be important, and why does Shi note,
> 
> "It's a wonder they've kept up with Raikage for so long, but now he's using the shroud...they don't stand a chance"​
> Or something along those lines. The emphasis being that Shrouded Raikage would move quicker than his opponents could keep up with. Why? Reflexes.
> ...



Even if that is true...why does it matter? Minato had superior mobility and ability to position himself on the battlefield when compared to most ninja in the series and Raikage even admits that. It doesn't matter if that came from Minato physically running, using shunshin or teleporting with Hiraishin. 

I don't know why people try to argue what is "real" speed in this manga. What Hiraishin does in terms of combat achieves the same end as having "real" incredible speed...that is blitz enemies, gain superior positioning or escape/dodge attacks. This all basically comes down to nitpicking.


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## HawkMan (Jun 7, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> You don't read my answer and just repeat your same tired argument.  You have already said all those things. Attaching links does not answer my question, does it. let me help you
> 
> IF MINATO IS ONLY FASTER DUE TO SPACE-TIME NINJUTSU, AND MADARA HAS A SPACE-TIME NINJUTSU THAT CAN KEEP UP WITH HIRAISHIN AND RAIKAGE HAS SEEN THIS SPACE-TIME NINJUTSU, WHY THEN DOES RAIKAGE NOT COUNT IT AS BEING SUPERIOR SPEED TO HIM?


You berated me for fabricating information, going so far to say the author didn't support them. I proved to you that Kishi, through Shi, stated Raikage moved faster than Minato by highlighting reflexes. By asserting the contrary you're positing this to be a Retcon or an inconsistency. It's not, Raikage moves more quickly than Minato. 

However, Raikage does credit Minato in recent chapters and that's undoubtedly accounting for Hiriashin. You're counter stems on the premise that Madara and Minato possess Jykukan of similar execution and that Raikage took notice of this during his encounter with both. That's doubtful, considering his limted exposure with Madara, the differences in their jutsu, and his familiarity with Minato.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 7, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> This post contains truth. Raiton shroud was indeed said to increase his reflexes, not his speed. So Minato could still be faster then Raikage in his V2



By increasing his reflexes, he is increasing his speed. Most ninjas get better reflexes from increasing their speed, since the two are proportional. Raikage is just doing the opposite.



			
				posternojutsu said:
			
		

> I don't know why people try to argue what is "real" speed in this manga. What Hiraishin does in terms of combat achieves the same end as having "real" incredible speed...that is blitz enemies, gain superior positioning or escape/dodge attacks. This all basically comes down to nitpicking.



Exactly.



> Even if that is true...why does it matter? Minato had superior mobility and ability to position himself on the battlefield when compared to most ninja in the series and Raikage even admits that. It doesn't matter if that came from Minato physically running, using shunshin or teleporting with Hiraishin.



Hawkman is just showing people that Hiraishin is what was being referred to. Some people just don't believe that's the case.


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## Sniffers (Jun 7, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> By increasing his reflexes, he is increasing his speed. Most ninjas get better reflexes from increasing their speed, since the two are proportional. Raikage is just doing the opposite.


The two aren't proportional. They are seperate. Kakashi moved too fast for his reflexes to make an attack safe. This shows that Kakashi's movement speed had developed beyond his reflexes. Later Kakashi got the Sharingan and was able to safely use said high movement speed.



Reflex speed and movement speed are decoupled. However when you consider combat speed, then both speeds become of importance. Minato can have a higher top speed, but he'll never be able to safely use it in an attack without matching reflex speed, hence his combat speed drops. It's true though that normally most people would train their reflexes to match their movement.

I'd guess that V2 Raikage's combat speed is higher than Minato's. Though Hiraishin removes the need for movement for the most part so he wins with that again I suppose.


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## posternojutsu (Jun 7, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> By increasing his reflexes, he is increasing his speed. Most ninjas get better reflexes from increasing their speed, since the two are proportional. Raikage is just doing the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree wit him on that. I just don't understand how other people take that as a de-hyping of Minato's ability.


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## HawkMan (Jun 7, 2011)

posternojutsu said:


> I agree wit him on that. I just don't understand how other people take that as a de-hyping of Minato's ability.


It's not a de-hype, as you note. The problem were the implications of this position, borne from "afterglow". Yes, that's commonly referred to from sexual encounters, and that's exactly the implication of that term. It supersedes sound logic.  

For the positon of so very many in this thread to be correct, Kishi would have to retcon previous comparisons. In addition, it marginalizes Shrouded Raikage's feats and(If Naruto is capable of matching heightened forms) RM Naruto. A majority of these posters were completely secure in the inexplicable speed of Minato that surpassed understanding. "_It didn't have to make sense, It's Minato_"-basically. 

That's after-glow for you. The author has created a world with rules and constructs. The majority in this thread accepted the absence of such in favor of ignorant worship.


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## hitokugutsu (Jun 7, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> The two aren't proportional. They are seperate. Kakashi moved too fast for his reflexes to make an attack safe. This shows that Kakashi's movement speed had developed beyond his reflexes. Later Kakashi got the Sharingan and was able to safely use said high movement speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm nice find once again. I guess this would make Raiton Shroud an alternative for Sharingan eh


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## Miky617 (Aug 23, 2011)

The way I see it, Raikage in his Raiton armor is about the speed of light, and there are 2 real reasons, maybe four.

1) He evaded Amaterasu which is as fast as light. In the time it took for the kight of the Raikage to travel to Sasuke (who was about 20 meters away), bounce straight off of his retina's with Amaterasu, and get back to the Raikage, he was gone. Amaterasu activates at the point of focus of where the eyes are. Sight is registered by the light reflecting off objects and returning to the Retina where it then is processed by the optic nerve and transfered to the brain. Amaterasu skips the whole optic nerve thing and bounces straight to where the target was. Raikage was there and gone before the light could bounce from Sasuke and back. That is faster than light.

2)He matched Naruto (kyubi form) in speed. Naruto just barely missed that last attack. Flying thunder God is an instant, trans-dimentional teleportation technique. It is faster than light by definition. If Killer Bee had trouble telling the difference between Naruto and FTG, then that must mean Naruto is about Light-speed, which Raikage went toe-to-toe with.

{debateable} 3. Raikage claimed that he was the fastest ninja alive, with the exception of Naruto and Minato. WE can assume that he is also faster than gated Lee and Guy. On narutopedia, Mad Dance of Infinity, the user is traveling at the speed of light, so he claims that he is faster than someone whe is at the speed of light.

{debateable} 4. Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half, which by some sources, lightning can travel up to a third the speed of light. We all know that the Raikage is many times faster than kakashi (by many, i mean more than three), so there you have it. Raikage is one of the fastest dudes ever, but he is surpassed by Minato and Naruto.


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## Saunion (Aug 23, 2011)

No one in Naruto is lightspeed.


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## navy (Aug 23, 2011)

Saunion said:


> No one in Naruto is lightspeed.



Kishi said Haku was in the databook...


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## Missing_Nin (Aug 23, 2011)

summers said:


> This thread is large.Could Someone give me the Summary of the 2 or 3 Main opposing views.



raikage is faster than minato
minato's reaction isn't as fast as raikage

basically dehyping minato as usual.


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## Summers (Aug 23, 2011)

Missing_Nin said:


> raikage is faster than minato
> minato's reaction isn't as fast as raikage
> 
> basically dehyping minato as usual.



Its impossible to dehype that guy, just look at how the manga has attempted to dephype him.

Minato is a failure father who sealed a biju in his son, only for his son to then praise him for what he did.
Minato says Madara saw through everything he did, then we see Minato put a rasengan in his back.
Raikage call Minato a failure then Naruto comes and says his a boss, then we see Minato kick Raikages ass, then give his brother some family tips.

If expect to see blondy schooling somebody in a couple chapters. Why?... just Cause.


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## Yuna (Aug 23, 2011)

Missing_Nin said:


> raikage is faster than minato
> minato's reaction isn't as fast as raikage


And you know this for a fact how?


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## Soul King (Aug 23, 2011)

There is nobody, alive, that can beat his speed, other than Naruto. Basically.


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## dungsi27 (Aug 23, 2011)

Wow this is a very very old thread why bring it back lol?


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## eyeknockout (Aug 23, 2011)

in order of speed level (jutsu powerups included). minato, naruto or raikage, 7th gate guy, itachi then/or killer bee. the rest are not speed demons


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Aug 24, 2011)

read a couple pages of this thread... hilarious stuff.
I agree with @Miky617

Raikage was the fastest alive, until Naruto got Kyubi Mode. 

Raikage is fast and strong enough to manhandle legions of ninjas single-handedly.


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