# SM jiriaya vs sandaime raikage



## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

Can jiraiya actually win? because bar frog song i dont see what he can actually do 

location: open field
distance: 25m 
knowledge: none
mindset: murder the enemy 

Bonus round: to make things more fun the sandaime has his amber pot 

i want to hear arguments about jiriaya winning. i need to know how FRS can do nothing 
yet jiriaya much weaker moves are supposed to do something


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## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

The only Kages who are stronger than Jiraiya imo are the Kid, his father, and hashirama.

With the pot however, chances are he is going to lose especially with no knowledge. Without that however he wins.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

then how does jiriaya win 
frog song not that easy to pull off in an open field


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## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

He pulled it off against Pain who's stronger than the Raikage. I don't see why wouldn't he be able to do so here.

Also, Jiraiya can simply gets the Raikage to the space where it's full with acid like he did to the animal path. There is also Gemon (or whatever it called), containing of oil, fire, and wind it's not going to be pleasant for the Raikage. 

Not to mention the Rassengan and SM tactic like the Kid did. In addition to that, Jiraiya has sealing jutsu that suppresses the chakra, so that's that. 

Or simply transforming him to a frog, and then killing him.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 22, 2015)

He makes himslef a shadow and starts frog song , the raikage doesn't seem to be too Smart to see through the trick.
Given the distance  and location , the raikage is in quite an advantage, in an interior i do not see him surviving against gamaguchi shibari
Having the Intent to kill the raikage will attack him directly with His one finger spear and because of not having enough speed to blitz jiraiya, frog Call will be devastating to raikage imo because of the jutsus Great speed
If you would have give a 10 meters distance maybe raikage would blitz , 25 and >25 meters jiraiya wins due to very good speed, sensing, barrier


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## Nikushimi (Mar 22, 2015)

Gamarinshou is Jiraiya's only hope, so the entire fight boils down to whether or not he can buy enough time for it. Naruto already proved that Sage Mode is adequate for reacting to and evading the Raikage's attacks; my only doubt is whether or not Jiraiya's Jutsu diversity will compensate for his relative lack of stopping power. He doesn't have FRS and he can't mass-spam Cho Oodama Rasengan... Yomi Numa isn't gonna slow down a Raiton user. Hair Jutsu will get cut through like rice paper. Summons are lolfuckinguseless against someone who fought the Hachibi to a draw.  I guess a wave of burning oil might slow the Raikage down. The rest of the fight would just be smoke bombs and hit-and-run. The toad gourd might allow the toad sages to prep Gamarinshou in the safety of the barrier space until it is ready to be cast, but there aren't any hiding places in an open field and there's no telling what will happen if the Raikage destroys the toad gourd from the outside.

No knowledge works to Jiraiya's advantage in the preparation of Gamarinshou, because the Raikage will have no idea what to expect once the toad sages start singing. But it also works against Jiraiya, because he will have to endure a protracted exchange with the Raikage before he realizes he needs Genjutsu to win--and that is going to be incredibly risky, especially before he has entered Sage Mode. Jiraiya has plenty of tricks up his sleeve to slip out from under the Raikage's nose--like clones and that one Jutsu where he flattens his body to look like a shadow--but if he gets caught by the Raikage, he is fucking dead, no question about it.

Could go either way; with absolutely no intel on either side and a totally open battlefield, I'd bet my money on the Raikage.


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## Joakim3 (Mar 22, 2015)

Yeah Niku pretty much hit the nail on the head

It's a close fight but Raikagenaut has the _slight_ advantage due to the knowledge and location stipulations


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> then how does jiriaya win
> * frog song not that easy to pull off in an open field *



 Hussain, please reread this part over and over again.

 Jiraiya only pulled it off due to the location splitting up into different paths (no pun intended) which allowed Jiraiya to hide and prep up Frog Song (which was stated to require prep time). Due to location favoring Jiraiya, that allowed him to set up a diversion which was the only way Frog Song worked. Here, however, it is an open field and Sandaime Raikage is substantially faster. SM Jiraiya has no chance here.


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## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

Jiraiya does not need to hid against the Raikage to begin with. lol
and Frog Song does not take forever btw.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya does not need to hid against the Raikage to begin with. lol
> and Frog Song does not take forever btw.



 Frog Song requires prep and with the distance given, that doesn't give Ma and Pa nearly enough time to use Frog Song before Sandaime Raikage rips out his intestines. 

 He's just far too quick to the point where KCM Naruto can't react to a head-on attack effectively enough to counterattack. I just don't see SM Jiraiya winning this, especially when he's considerably weaker than KCM Naruto.


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2015)

The better question is how would Sandaime-Raikage even touch SM-Jiriaya. SM sensing enabled Dat-Clone to so easily dodge, that he could literally wait to the absolute last second and still evade Raikage's strongest attack while timing his own counter. Even if someone wants to pretend SM-Dat-Clone is faster than SM-Jiraiya which has absolutely no place in reality whatsoever, all that would mean is Jiriaya couldn't wait till thee last second to evade, but would still be able to do so comfortably by acting sooner. 

As for how Jiriaya beats Raikage, assuming that Jiraiya a 50 year old Sannin, and two elder toads couldn't eventually figure out the basic strategy of turning Raikage's attack against him w/o Hachibi's help; Frog-Song is still a completely viable fall back method here. The location or even being able to put up a distraction hardly matters when SM-Jiraiya can casually evade everything the Raikage can throw at him, until the song goes off w/ SM sensing. 

Literally the only way Jiraiya could loose here is due to the Amber-Sealing Jar, but that is only viable if Ma, Pa, and Jiriaya are all completely unaware of how the Jar works, as whether he has knowledge of Raikage specifically or not, the moment such distinct Jar comes into play, if they have any knowledge of it they will recognize it  and simply avoid it's mechanic, resulting in Sandaime having zero chance to win this fight. Whether they have knowledge or not comes down to plot basically, but from a logical stand-point i'd expect someone like Jiriaya whose so familar with the Sage of Six Paths to be one of thee most likely people in the vers to recognize the Jar outside Kumokagure  Shinobi or Shinobi that directly fought against Sandaime, the Sage himself, his sons, or the Gold and Silver brothers. So the odds favor Jiraiya there as well. And Raikage only has this small chance of winning due to how innately broken the Jar is, so broken that Kishi had to write it out of the manga, as otherwise Tenten might have ended Juubidara with it due to him simply being unaware of the mechanic or not knowing Tenten was employing the Jar's power while being distracted by other fighters

If two characters are relatively equal and you give one the benefit of starting the match immediately using their best technique, they will almost certainly win, as that is simply a massive advantage. Here Jiraiya is actually at least slightly better than Raikage, given the way both characters are portrayed in the story, so an advantage like that is even more damming here. The only exception to that is if someone has an innate massive type advantage over someone else, but that is not the case here. Any other conclusion is completely absurd imo.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 22, 2015)

Jiraiya will beat him up early on, since there is no knowledge the 3rd is likely to start in base and not even think about using Nukite.

Around mid-battle Jiraiya will understand the 3rd is highly durable, physically powerful and a raiton user, and the 3rd will understand that Jiraiya has Rasengan, is very fast and physically powerful (possibly know that he's a Sage). 

From there it can go either way if the 3rd surprises him with Nukite via a Black Lightning Feint, but I'd put my money on Jiraiya getting him with Frog Song via Dust Cloud. Not sure if Frog Call would work on someone so durable to stop him temporarily like the summons, even though it attacks the ear drums, the 3rd's ear drums are probably durable as fuck too, frog song would work though. 

Jiraiya's best option is to block AOS with Dust Cloud (Ma) then prep frog Song in the cloud by either staying away from him in it or hiding in a chakra-cloaking frog/in his barrier gourd until Ma/Pa are ready. If he chooses he can continue to block AOS and needs more time he can by slamming the ground with Odama Rasengans and spitting katons at it either himself or with his clones, staying atop Gamabunta is also a good option in AOS blockage.


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## ARGUS (Mar 22, 2015)

Third Raikage wins this mid diff at the very most 

 -- Jiraiya cant hurt him, nothing he does is even worth mentioning here, it either gets evaded or gets tanked with no damage whatsoever, that alone takes out all his chances of winning out of the picture, 

 -- Raikage is faster and more reflexive jiraiya, with firepower that is well well above his, all he needs is one hell stab and jiraiya is finished, which is bound to happen, so prepping frog song which is jiraiyas only hope is also blown out of the water

 -- Summons are utmost garbage here, not only are they not landing a single hit on raikage, but they get eradicated and one shotted by nukite, 

 -- Using immobilising techniques is also not helping, not when they are not allowing jiraiya any chances of winning here, Yomi Numa gets negated by channelling raiton, frog calls range either gets evaded or any following attack gets tanked, as once these fails, jiraiya gets one shotted


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Third Raikage wins this mid diff at the very most
> 
> -- Jiraiya cant hurt him, nothing he does is even worth mentioning here, it either gets evaded or gets tanked with no damage whatsoever, that alone takes out all his chances of winning out of the picture,
> 
> ...



 I was going to piss myself if somebody didn't share the same perspective.


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## Bonly (Mar 23, 2015)

I'd favor Jiraiya to win more times then not. After Jiraiya,Ma, and Pa realized that Ninjutsu+Taijutsu wasn't the way to go they went with genjutsu aka frog song so even without knowledge Jiraiya should be able to survive long enough to realize most of his ninjutsu isn't getting the job done as well as Taijutsu may not be to favorable so he'll go for Frog song and once he pulls that off victory is just a snap away.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> He makes himslef a shadow and starts frog song , the raikage doesn't seem to be too Smart to see through the trick.
> Given the distance  and location , the raikage is in quite an advantage, in an interior i do not see him surviving against gamaguchi shibari
> Having the Intent to kill the raikage will attack him directly with His one finger spear and because of not having enough speed to blitz jiraiya, frog Call will be devastating to raikage imo because of the jutsus Great speed
> If you would have give a 10 meters distance maybe raikage would blitz , 25 and >25 meters jiraiya wins due to very good speed, sensing, barrier



jieiaya must hold his breath to make himself a shadow 
so must the frogs
thats a terrible idea 

erm frog call has never been implied to be fast. but say he immoblizes the raikage. then what?

@turrin i wasnt aware SM naruto feats can be given to jiraiya who was long ago surpassed by naruto as stated more than once. 

his Pain arc version was already superior. the version that evaded the raikage is so far ahead of jiraiya in Sm usage its unfair

btw frong song paralyses the mind. at best it would deactivate the raikage cloak but then jiriaya must still finish him off. otherwise there would have been no need to stab the paths with his stone sword. 

problem is no jutsu jiriaya has can harm the raikage if he stood there and gave jriaiya free shots all day

@everyone
considering for those who think jiriaya win believe his only shot at winning is frog song i want to understand how u find that more likely when 
1) jiraya would resort to ninjutsu first 
2) then taijutsu
3) open field so hiding 
4) bunta and his gang couldnt stop *deva path* from getting to naruto when he lost his Sm . sandaime is quite alot faster than deva 
5) frog song took a chapter to pull off. in that time, jiriaya had the time to hide in a shadow, pull of katon, YN and a kick. all this happened while the paths had actually seen him. lets not forget frog song was already ungoing before they saw him. 

so what i want to know is how on earth does jiriaya buy that much time. considering he will first use ninjutsu which would be useless, worse, he will try taijutsu which puts him in nikute range. 

the raikage basically only needs to hit jiraiya once to win yet somehow jiriaya pulls off frog song. hmmm  at all


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## Duhul10 (Mar 23, 2015)

They clap their hands, OPEN their mouths and the sound spreads , this means maybe 3-4 seconds and actually in manga it was like two panels 
Then Jiraiya yatai kuzushi's him
The dust Cloud and the frog call are very underrated, these jutsus Being perfect for imobilization and distraction
When a person gets in the frog call, Jiraiya can do whatever jutsu he wants and the Most effective he can do against beastkage is yatai kuzushi, then gamarinshou.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> They clap their hands, OPEN their mouths and the sound spreads , this means maybe 3-4 seconds and actually in manga it was like two panels
> Then Jiraiya yatai kuzushi's him
> The dust Cloud and the frog call are very underrated, these jutsus Being perfect for imobilization and distraction
> When a person gets in the frog call, Jiraiya can do whatever jutsu he wants and the Most effective he can do against beastkage is yatai kuzushi, then gamarinshou.



am not saying frog call wont land far from it. its a good technique. you just called it super fast for no reason however

ok so frog call lands. then what??

dropping a toad on him??? really???? u think that would kill someone who wrestled a bijuu to exhaustion and tanked FRS with no damage at all 

seriously?? ah common stop it. the raikage picks up the toad and tosses it away. we have already seen in this manga a giant person landing on someone much stronger doesnt do them much good. or wait the sandaime simply points his finger up and bunta dies. Considering its range cutting 8 tails in 1 move. 

now what u can say is, jiraiya pulls off frog call. then runs off to pull of frog song. however that sounds massively OOC 

also how long does frog call immoblize a person??

even frog song, it only immoblises the raikage mind. jiriaya must still finish him off. even without his cloak it wont be that easy for jiriaya. with his cloak like i said the sandaime can actually just stand there and tank all day. or worse run straight through jiriaya. 

u do know the sandaime doesnt at all need to be concerned with defense right .he can off the bat go for nikute while jiriaya attempts ninjutsu and jiriaya could die right there. if jiraiya wasnt able to physically outdo the 3 paths of pains. i find it hard to believe he is keepign up with a bijuu wrestler who more than likey tanked BD's 

while jiriaya cant afford to get holes punched in him. i dont see how the raikage can loose with such a ridiculous advantage. he would have to be an idiot to not keep the pressure up, considering he is faster and his enemy cant go with him in cqc

unless u think a bijuu can exhaust itself till it collapses without spending alot of chakra


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## Duhul10 (Mar 23, 2015)

Yatai kuzushi will only put him down, not kill him god dammit and he has no feats of him Being able to push up a giant Toad

He needs to use chakra to have the shroud , if he is Caught in frog Call , he will be stunned and not able to use chakra , so he looses the shroud ( a valid hypotesis imo) after that , without the shroud, Joraiya can catch him in the infamous yomi numa, burn him with dai endan ( His durabilty decreasimg once His cloak is gone

Do not get me wrong, this is my opinion and I have some valid points, maybe you have too, but Jiraiya wins more Times than not like others have already said


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## Thunder (Mar 23, 2015)

(and maybe ) would stun A long enough for Jiraiya to drag him into  . I think Sage Jiraiya could pull that off.

Aside from a strategy that relies on the above jutsu, I don't see how Sage Jiraiya takes out A without intel. He's too durable.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Yatai kuzushi will only put him down, not kill him god dammit and he has no feats of him Being able to push up a giant Toad
> 
> He needs to use chakra to have the shroud , if he is Caught in frog Call , he will be stunned and not able to use chakra , so he looses the shroud ( a valid hypotesis imo) after that , without the shroud, Joraiya can catch him in the infamous yomi numa, burn him with dai endan ( His durabilty decreasimg once His cloak is gone
> 
> Do not get me wrong, this is my opinion and I have some valid points, maybe you have too, but Jiraiya wins more Times than not like others have already said



he has canon statements wrestling a bijuu. u mean to tell me he can do that but he cant lift a bloody toad when shima who is nothign to a bijuu could toss gamabunta around
oh please 

why wont he be able to use chakra if stunned. Db statements please of being stunned equalling not being able to use chakra. 

yes his durability decreases but its still well above endan...lol stop urself. if with cloak he is tanking FRS and implied to tank BD. in base endan isnt even an attack to him. its an insult

and others have said A wins as well. just saying am not alone in this 

i find it ridiculous considering the convoluted ways jiriaya must pull off a win while A can just run and nikute him to death. which is easier is what determines who wins.

no different than if kamui required a ritual to pull off. kakashi would be significantly less dangerous. here for jiriaya to win, he must use frog song. 

thats so much harder to pull off than a run and stab


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## Duhul10 (Mar 24, 2015)

His fight with hachibi was Off panel. Maybe he just ran and doged and about the Off cloak part he has not shown Any Great durabilty Do not piss me with His hachibi fight because we do not know what actually happened. 
After he is stunned, Jiraiya gets Close and cuts His head with the stone swords .
If he goes for nukite right of the bat it doesn't mean Jiraiya cannot do it as well with frog Call. Sound >>> raikage speed and from 25 meters you can actually calculate, raikage will not be able to Dodge it due to the jutsu's very Great range.  
The jutsu controls the mind and a ninja must concentrate to canalize chakra, if he is mindfucked, he cannot control chakra, very simple
And in this thread, there is no one who posted , having the same opinion like you do, maybe bar thunder but even he Said there is a winning strategy for Jiraiya but again it is your opinion and I accept it because i know that nobody will convince you


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> His fight with hachibi was Off panel. Maybe he just ran and doged and about the Off cloak part he has not shown Any Great durabilty Do not piss me with His hachibi fight because we do not know what actually happened.
> After he is stunned, Jiraiya gets Close and cuts His head with the stone swords .
> If he goes for nukite right of the bat it doesn't mean Jiraiya cannot do it as well with frog Call. Sound >>> raikage speed and from 25 meters you can actually calculate, raikage will not be able to Dodge it due to the jutsu's very Great range.
> The jutsu controls the mind and a ninja must concentrate to canalize chakra, if he is mindfucked, he cannot control chakra, very simple
> And in this thread, there is no one who posted , having the same opinion like you do, maybe bar thunder but even he Said there is a winning strategy for Jiraiya but again it is your opinion and I accept it because i know that nobody will convince you



be pissed all u want. he fought a bijuu till the *bijuu passed out from fighting* that far outclasses what any shinobi can do. jiraiya included. hachibi said he can take a hit. hachibi also said it wasnt BD that took the raikage out. why mention BD if it was never used??  dont hate 

hahahah cuts his head with stone swords. omg!!! am laughing so hard. so i take it. stone sword>>>>>>>>>FRS. wow!!! jiriaya sword is haxx i didnt know that. 

sound greater than raikage speed . raikage is faster than FRS. some nerds have calculated how fast FRS moves. that shit moves faster than sound. 

argus and narutoX28 agree with me. dont be a hater...

well i can be convinced but its clear ur insignificant feelings are hurt when u start mentioning shit like stone sword cuts his head off 

i didnt know stone sword cutting power exceeded everything hachibi had in its arsenal and FRS

dat stone sword!! that needs to be an smilies in NF who can i talk to about such


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## Duhul10 (Mar 24, 2015)

Ok so you say the frs speed is better than Frog Call ( Prove it )and raikage barely Dodge it from a pretty good distance, but the range of the frs is not even comparable to frog Call. Him avoiding frog Call in 25 meters is bullshit and you Prove nothing with the hachibi argument, it was Off panel, maybe hachibi bijuu dama'd like shit and he was just hiding and avoiding, we do not know about that, but still he didn't stalemated he was heavily injured.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Ok so you say the frs speed is better than Frog Call ( Prove it )and raikage barely Dodge it from a pretty good distance, but the range of the frs is not even comparable to frog Call. Him avoiding frog Call in 25 meters is bullshit and you Prove nothing with the hachibi argument, it was Off panel, maybe hachibi bijuu dama'd like shit and he was just hiding and avoiding, we do not know about that, but still he didn't stalemated he was heavily injured.



he dodged it twice. despite it being directed. 
the first time he had sun glare in his eyes and still activated his shroud and reacted at the last second
i dont have to prove it. i dont care which is faster but dont make it sound like frog call will auto hit him when the best its done is hit summons with no speed running at it 

he stalemated it. hence why it collapsed off panel or not its important to his standing in this match up i mean considering u said a stone sword can cut his neck hahahaahh imma laugh u off on this one. 

why is this argument hurting u so much?? 

u clinging to frog call. ok good it hits and then?? 

ignore the fact that the sandaime is the faster of the 2 and jiraiya cqc abilites wasnt enough to beat 3 paths. odd i remember the other guy being stated to stalemate a bijuu i dunno. i mean he was enough to have KCM think his only way to actually do harm was a BD but yes sure dat stone sword will remove his head and perhaps his body while god jiraiya is at it.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 24, 2015)

make a poll dude, i am tired trying to convince you, there are people here that know you for more time than I do and they are not even trying to talk to you anymore, you are too much of a hater, boy, live your life, I know that you are going to offend me saying i am a butthurt, idiot etcetera, but I am sick of all the shit you spread, i tried to have a decent conversation but you are too much of a hater. You believe what you want


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> make a poll dude, i am tired trying to convince you, there are people here that know you for more time than I do and they are not even trying to talk to you anymore, you are too much of a hater, boy, live your life, I know that you are going to offend me saying i am a butthurt, idiot etcetera, but I am sick of all the shit you spread, i tried to have a decent conversation but you are too much of a hater. You believe what you want



if i make a poll people will call me spiteful 
u want to poll which is faster frog call or FRS 
ill wait for sabre to have time to get at u on that one. considering FRS was already being compared to susanoo arrow. but hey that frog croak super fast. i mean it only requires u to run into it for it to work 

lol am the hater yet u the butthurt inventing things like stone sword gonna decapitate sandaime 

u go on and tell me when ive sounded that foolish on this thread 

lol decent conversation went far far out the window the second u said stone sword decapitates him. but like i said butthurt is butthurt. i dont expect u to agree. cba to poll this thread would be 50/50 at best. 

which i find hard to swallow seeing one cant hurt the other while sandaime can hurt jiriaya with every single move


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## Duhul10 (Mar 24, 2015)

yes 50/50 at best for sandaime , goemon surely hurts him , burning constantly at a temperature of thousands of degrees, which means much hotter than lava, not even his shroud can protect him from that. You are the butthurt here, the swords part was only to make you understand that he can be vulnerable to certain things, but still if you
think that his corpse is made of iron and a sword cannot make him bleed.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> yes 50/50 at best for sandaime , goemon surely hurts him , burning constantly at a temperature of thousands of degrees, which means much hotter than lava, not even his shroud can protect him from that. You are the butthurt here, the swords part was only to make you understand that he can be vulnerable to certain things, but still if you
> think that his corpse is made of iron and a sword cannot make him bleed.



goemon hotter than lava??  
Db statement of such 
how can oil be otter than lava?? stop it this isnt cool man!!

his shroud protected him from FRS..which is a microscopic level decimation attack. he tanked it with no muss no fuss...stop makign shit up 

he cant be vulnerable to anything jiriaya has much less this hotter than lava made up oil

that however please poll i think u need to be laughed at 

his body is actually stated to be as hard as iron. he also has the strongest shield in the manga to date. 

a sword cant make him bleed. quite obviously!! or else he would have been turned to dust by FRS which again >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hold up>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything jiriaya has in his arsenal and by very very far. seriously!!! u didnt even try to say odama rasengan u went with made up hotter than lava oil. kmt  u cant be serious 

his body is invulnerable to a micrscopic attack yet he isnt going to be melted by something clearly not hotter than lava when even mere rib cage susanoo tanks lava for sport. 

guess next thing ull tell me is rib cage susanoo is a better defense than the sandaime


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## Duhul10 (Mar 24, 2015)

the poll i am talking about is sm jiraiya vs sandaime raikage you punk. 
You have lost this one tiger, get over it 
gamarinshou ends him however. Nukite will not even happen cause he is trolled with frog call and they can keep it until raikage runs out of chakra
Yes goemon it is hotter than lava, much hotter, and it is not oil, it is oil, fire and wind.
He can keep him in frog call until forever because the frogs are practically an endless source of natural energy
forever means off shroud, off shroud means yomi numa gg.
I am quite tired, you can talk to yourself from now on


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## FlamingRain (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> goemon hotter than lava??
> Db statement of such





> *Databook 3 - Senpou: Goemon:*
> Sage Art: Goemon* (仙法・五右衛門, Senpou: Goemon)
> Ninjutsu, Senjutsu, No rank, Offensive, All ranges
> Users: Jiraiya, Fukasaku, Shima
> ...



And:



> his body is actually stated to be as hard as iron.



That's just a simile. It's just an attempt to say that the Raikage is really tough. The Viz doesn't even mention iron. It says instead:

*"The only one who has ever successfully traveled using this Jutsu is the Third Raikage! // And only then because of his extra-tough physique!"*

Obviously the iron comparison is just a figure of speech. Raikage is far more durable than physical iron anyway.

But Temari cut him when he was in base, so...


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## Arles Celes (Mar 24, 2015)

SM Jiraiya got infinite SM due to Ma and Pa plus their priceless assistance.

He can potentially dodge the Sandaime Raikage attacks due to SM sensing and try to keep him at bay with long range jutsus and other summons like Gamaken or Gamabunta. The swamp of the underworld could also work against someone so lacking in versatility as the 3rd Raikage.

Raikage got great durability and physical strength but Jiraiya is at least as strong(he could smack Pain's huge bull summon) and his own SM gives great durability. Only the greatest spear can kill him...if it lands.

Ma and Pa can also affect him with Frog Son most likely...


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm convinced people who think Sage Jiraiya stands a chance against the Third in an open battlefield haven't read the manga in its entirety or simply skim over the little details.

The Third tears Jiraiya limb from limb. Sage Art: Goemon obviously isn't doing jack, that hair-needles technique bounces off him like a fly ricocheting off a Tiger tank, and Massive Rasengan gets launched off of the Third's Rasenshuriken-tanking body as easily as Madara's Susanoo did Naruto's.

Jiraiya has nothing in his arsenal to slow down, let alone hurt the Third. That matters all the more when the latter's superior speed has him closing the distance much more quickly than Frog Song can be prepared, which is subsequently followed by any of the below options:

a) The Third bifurcates him with four-fingered Hell Stab.
b) The Third bifurcates him with three-fingered Hell Stab.
c) The Third bifurcates him with two-fingered Hell Stab.
d) The Third bifurcates him with one-fingered Hell Stab. 

Or alternatively, the Third beats him to death with his fists. Why, you ask, when Sage Jiraiya is such a physical monster? Consider that the Third forced the Eight-Tails to pass out from exhaustion. Now, we know exhaustion was the primary factor in ending the fight without a victor, because the Eight-Tails did not display any severe injuries that could have possibly rendered him unconscious - this becomes even more unlikely when you acknowledge how much it went through against the Tailed Beasts, Ten-Tails, etc.

We also know that Gyūki is extremely fast for its size. It managed to snag a Version Two Jinchūriki at full-speed; these are the same Version Two Jinchūriki that were pressuring Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto with their speed - such that he couldn't even dodge, but had to block. That being the case, I have no doubt that a wild, rampaging Gyūki wouldn't have caught the Third at one point and tried to pin him down or restrict his movement, as a beast does to its prey. In that case, the Third would have to be equally as physically strong to actually break out.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 25, 2015)

He keeps him in frog Call until raikage runs out of shroud ( frog Call needs natural energy which is infinite for the sages) , After His shroud is gone, he is sunk with yomi Numa. Jiraiya does not even need the better durability feats and a jutsu stronger than FRS, when he has a jutsu that counters the raikage perfectly ( frog Call, again ).
Sincerely imo sound jutsus and ocular genjutsus are almost the only ones that can be game enders for raikage.
Nukite will not even connect due to the fact that he must hold His arm straight so he has only one direction, he cannot chop with nukite. He does not have the necesarily speed to blitz Sage Jiraiya ( 3 sensors,frog kata,Great speed,redlexes etc., not even from 25 meters, he hasn't shown Any speed like that. He has only shown Great reflexes, not running speed. Actually he didn't even show a better speed than Jiraiya. He didn't even show shunshin, no blitz.
OH and goemon melts him because once again, much hotter than lava and Great AOE


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## ARGUS (Mar 25, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'm convinced people who think Sage Jiraiya stands a chance against the Third in an open battlefield haven't read the manga in its entirety or simply skim over the little details.
> 
> The Third tears Jiraiya limb from limb. Sage Art: Goemon obviously isn't doing jack, that hair-needles technique bounces off him like a fly ricocheting off a Tiger tank, and Massive Rasengan gets launched off of the Third's Rasenshuriken-tanking body as easily as Madara's Susanoo did Naruto's.
> 
> ...



This takes a dump on any clown who has the nerve to say that Jiraiya wins by either attrition or through any of his puny attacks,,


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

he cannot chop with nikute  
why duhul why???
what did he then use to slice dodai rubber ball in half? his mind??

@flamming rain the oil is nice and all but unless u are attempting foolishly to say it can do more damage than FRS i dont know why u bothered to quote me
1000's of degrees is a figure of speech 


@tastymuffin i agree its like people just go on being silly. do u know one guy even said stone sword from jiriaya can decapitate the raikage??

@Areles why wont any version of nikute work?? i didnt know jiriaya was durable enough to tank things like raikiri and chidori with his body. 
mind showing me said feat please


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## Duhul10 (Mar 25, 2015)

It think that you understood my points but you do not want to accept  them
He charges with nukite In only one direction ( Exactly like a spear ), that is what he has shown. For a sage enhanced speedy, that has good reflexes, sensing and kata it won't be that hard to Dodge from 25 meters, knowing the opponent is just Fast,having a single attack, no sensing,no taijutsu feats, no genjutsu feats
About the frs part, it was Most probably because of ET ( they do not feel pain and have a Great resistance, talking about every Edo )
But still he is not avoiding frog call, he looses His shroud after a time an then he is eaten by yomi numa


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> It think that you understood my points but you do not want to accept  them
> He charges with nukite In only one direction ( Exactly like a spear ), that is what he has shown. For a sage enhanced speedy, that has good reflexes, sensing and kata it won't be that hard to Dodge from 25 meters, knowing the opponent is just Fast,having a single attack, no sensing,no taijutsu feats, no genjutsu feats
> About the frs part, it was Most probably because of ET ( they do not feel pain and have a Great resistance, talking about every Edo )
> But still he is not avoiding frog call, he looses His shroud after a time an then he is eaten by yomi numa



he used nikute to slice dodai rubber ball. so why on earth are u in denial about that??

speedy and good reflexes and katas. hmmm why were all these things not used against 3 paths of pain. you mean to tell me with all that he couldnt outdo 3 of them in taijutus. hmmmmm 

do show me jiraiya sensing and dodging the way naruto did. 

considering pain arc SM naruto was already>>>>>Sm jiriaya 
by war arc Sm naruto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sm jiriaya. as stated more than once by Ma and Pa. 

dont use naruto feats to assume jiraiya can do the same with an imperfect sage mode. which has him transform into a frog the longer he stays in that form. 

do notice at the start of Sm his feet and hands looked normal towards the end he had frog like feet and hands. worse he wasnt even standing on his feet anymore. he was on all 4's

the sandaime has no taijtsu feats really?? whats nikute? its taijutsu u know the attack that cut 8 of hachibi tails in 1 go 

sure thing. he cant avoid frog call but avoids FRS twice. i did not know frog call was that fast. sorry what speed feat does it have? it was only ever used on giant summons running into it. 

again nothing at all implies it would even remove his shroud. its a jutsu used to irritate and distract which seals his movement. nothing at all implies he would be unable to mold chakra because of it. 

anywayz like tasty and argus said its laughable people believe he can actually loose. 

feats of yomi numa completely sinking a person. go on ill wait


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## Duhul10 (Mar 25, 2015)

The pain arc sm naruto>>>>>> sm jiraiya it is only in your mind, db4 ( written by kishi), clearly gives Jiraiya the same abillities to sm naruto, pain arc sm naruto only speed feat is killing asura path with a rasengan which is not even impressive as a speed feat
Strength: they Both picked up the huge summons
Shunshin: jiraiya has, naruto doesn't have it
Versatility: Jiraiya for sure
Durability: jiraiya has been genjutsu'd, lost an arm,mortaly stabbed for 6 Times , but still moved and used chakra, Naruto was stabbed like five ore six times and was not even able to move anymore

And he was staying in an animal position because he wanted to, it was increasing His agility, proof? After staying that way, he used human walking again.
Naruto pain arc strongest jutsu: rasenshuriken, at that stage, even human path was able to grab animal path and throw him , all of this before it hit
Jiraiya's jutsus that cannot be countered or avoided by pain arc sm naruto:
Goemon ( absolutely no counter )
Kebari senbon ( destroys every clone of Naruto's )
Gamarinshou ( game Ender )
Chou Oodama rasengan ( took like 2-3 sec aprox to charge, bigger than Naruto's ultra big ball rasengan, someone measured it in pixels once and it had a diameter of like 5-6 meters
And about the match, you still do not understand what i meant with the choping and slicing part
Drugged Jiraiya sank a huge snake until His neck ( doesn't even matter if fodder or not )


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

in the manga written by kishi naruto can achieve perfect sage mode with no silly transformations and was stated to have surpassed jiriaya. therefore using naruto feats to suggest what a much weaker person can do is just dumb!

sorry are u trying to start a match up between war arc SM naruto and jiriaya. oh please dont do it. to urself please

goemon no escape?? its a lake of oil any idiot with the ability to jump jumps. its got no speef what so ever at all to suggest its impossible to jump away from. 

not that it matters to the raikage since u got absolutely no proof feat or manga suggestion to even claim it would slow him down. 

rib cage susanoo which is shit to sandaime defense tanks lava for the lolz. and u think its hot oil that would damag him oh poor duhul 

as for sm naruto vs jiriaya COFRS and jiriaya, his shadow soul and pride utterly die instantly 

comparing the 2 is not just stupid based on feats and portryal it shows ur desparation

anyone would tell u SM naruto>>>>>>>>>>>Sm jiriaya the gap is nasty and massive. naruto blinks he is in SM jiriaya has to go about running away just to go into the same mode. whats jiriaya strongest move? chouodama rasengan 

naruto makes dozens of those for the lolz

*note despite naruto being able to summon Ma and pa and despit having access to much more powerful jutsu than jiriaya. naruto didnt resort to a fair fight with the sandiame. he got intel from hachibi which allowed him to use the raikage attack against him. naruto wasnt goign about dropping toads  , using frog call or frog song. *

perhaps it wasnt that easy to pull off. just saying.


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## Hand Banana (Mar 25, 2015)

Jiraiya is not going to activate frog song right off the bat.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 25, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'm convinced people who think Sage Jiraiya stands a chance against the Third in an open battlefield haven't read the manga in its entirety or simply skim over the little details.



The irony in this comment is almost too massive to fit in the battledome.



> Sage Art: Goemon obviously isn't doing jack, that hair-needles technique bounces off him like a fly ricocheting off a Tiger tank, and Massive Rasengan gets launched off of the Third's Rasenshuriken-tanking body as easily as Madara's Susanoo did Naruto's.



That "Rasenshuriken-tanking" body was laid out by Rasenshuriken for a few seconds even with a Raiton armor enhancing it when it was first hit. Said armor was erased while his real body was left laying in a crater full of cracks and had the typical Edo Tensei confetti coming off of it when the sealers first tried going for it. The only reason they didn't catch him is because they didn't cut him _so_ seriously that he couldn't regenerate before the sealing process was completed. But he's not an Edo Tensei here, and I also wouldn't be so quick to say attacks get launched off of the Raikage as easily as they did Susano'o because in spite of Temari and co being able to cut him pretty decently with their attacks (at least when he was in his base mode) Temari plus Gaara, Kankuro, and Darui couldn't even budge Sasuke's Susano'o despite attacking simultaneously. Madara's Susano'o _is tougher than Sasuke's_ considering that Ay's stationary Raigyaku Suihei went through Sasuke's ribcage and hit himself Sasuke in the neck while a falling Ay couldn't do _anything at all_ to Madara's ribcage even as it was being exposed to Mei's lava (which _did_ cause even it to at least _begin_ melting as seen when it re-emerged after the second coating of lava).

Jiraiya can probably get rid of the shroud and get a hit on base mode Raikage by waiting a second after Shima's Futon before adding in the oil and Katon components that result in Senpō: Goemon, especially since the "fire is poured into the wind" detail in the technique's databook entry suggests that the wind blast is released first anyway. No, it won't kill or even critically injure Raikage but it _will_ hurt if it connects, and it will _continue_ to hurt because if he's not an Edo Tensei he has no methods of healing himself in the fight, and Jiraiya can simply use the technique again, meaning it will hurt more, and more, and more over time.



> We also know that Gyūki is extremely fast for its size. It managed to snag a Version Two Jinchūriki at full-speed; these are the same Version Two Jinchūriki that were pressuring Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto with their speed - such that he couldn't even dodge, but had to block.



Those Jinchūriki pressured Naruto because they were coming from different angles right behind each other, not because of their speed. Just because Naruto decided to block Fū doesn't suggest that he _couldn't_ have dodged were he to have chosen that instead. Kakashi and Gai would have been torn to shreds if those Jinchūriki were anywhere near the level of speed that would _force_ Naruto to block as opposed to dodge. I don't see why they would have been any faster than Kn4 when they obviously weren't as physically strong as it was and the same shroud is responsible for both enhancements, and Orochimaru could outrun Kn4's attacks.

Finally, Bee only managed to catch Utakata after he leapt into the air (where changing course is not possible without flight, which he does not have). When they were on the ground and he lashed out at them _he missed_, and Fū, Yugito, and Yagura apparently didn't find it difficult to just run around on top of him.



Icegaze said:


> @flamming rain the oil is nice and all but unless u are attempting foolishly to say it can do more damage than FRS i dont know why u bothered to quote me



I was just giving you the databook statement you asked for.



> 1000's of degrees is a figure of speech



Goemon being hell boiling in a pot is a figure of speech, being thousands of degrees not necessarily so.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

yh erm falling rain how does jiriaya get rid of the shroud again?
i wasnt aware he could use FRS 
u think the sandaime can get up after FRS but shima futton goign to do something to him
btw in the manga naruto himself said FRS did nothing to the raikage hence why he attempted to opt for bijuudama which hachibi himself said that didnt work against him

but yes that hot oil with no feats is going to burn someone who got up after a microscopic level attack. goemon wont even harm kakuzu much less the raikage

feats of goemon doing or melting anyone in this manga. or statements from anyone remotely commenting as to how dangerous it is. go on ill wait.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> how does jiriaya get rid of the shroud again?
> i wasnt aware he could use FRS
> u think the sandaime can get up after FRS but shima futton goign to do something to him



Fūton > Raiton. Shima's Fūton just blows the shroud off. It's the addition of the oil and Katon that will actually do something to him _once his armor is removed_.

He doesn't need to be able to use FRS, since FRS both got rid of the shroud _and_ damaged his actual body in that one burst.



> btw in the manga naruto himself said FRS did nothing to the raikage hence why he attempted to opt for bijuudama which hachibi himself said that didnt work against him



And? We clearly see that Raikage sustained damage from the attack. At best Naruto meant it had no effect _insofar as allowing Raikage to be sealed_.

Gyūki thought the Bijūdama _was how he hurt him_, and he probably didn't hurl it at a _base_ Raikage.



> but yes that hot oil with no feats is going to burn someone who got up after a microscopic level attack.



It's pointless to ask for feats of a Jutsu that was absorbed the only time it was used in the manga and you know it. However, we have seen what Katon/oil combos can do can do with base Jiraiya and Gamabunta's Katon: Gamayu Endan; Goemon has an additional Fūton propellant and it is also being used with Senjutsu, so it's power is definitely up there. The databook description _is_ the statement commenting about how dangerous it is.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Fūton > Raiton. Shima's Fūton just blows the shroud off. It's the addition of the oil and Katon that will actually do something to him _once his armor is removed_.
> 
> He doesn't need to be able to use FRS, since FRS both got rid of the shroud _and_ damaged his actual body in that one burst.



and yet FRS did nothing. FRS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>shima futton by far. Prove it has the force to do that. yes but FRS is by far and i mean very very far a much stronger wind jutsu



> And? We clearly see that Raikage sustained damage from the attack. At best Naruto meant it had no effect _insofar as allowing Raikage to be sealed_.
> 
> Gyūki thought the Bijūdama _was how he hurt him_, and he probably didn't hurl it at a _base_ Raikage.



it had no effect. so how on earth would shima futton. raikage was using his shroud against hachibi. its also ridiculous to think a bijuu *COLLAPSED!!* from exhaustion just through using physical attacks



> It's pointless to ask for feats of a Jutsu that was absorbed the only time it was used in the manga and you know it. However, we have seen what Katon/oil combos can do can do with base Jiraiya and Gamabunta's Katon: Gamayu Endan; Goemon has an additional Fūton propellant and it is also being used with Senjutsu, so it's power is definitely up there. The databook description _is_ the statement commenting about how dangerous it is.


[/QUOTE]


so u claim it would have an effect on no basis. despite a horribly stronger jutsu having no effect. 
read the databook descrption of FRS  
then realize that attack did nothing to the raikage. contemplate on that then give ur brain a rest


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 25, 2015)

> That "Rasenshuriken-tanking" body was laid out by Rasenshuriken for a few seconds even with a Raiton armor enhancing it when it was first hit.



You say this as if it proves anything; of course the Third would be 'laid out', it's not like he can physically overpower a city-level technique just by standing, c'mon now.

That doesn't denote anything in terms of damage.



> Said armor was erased while his real body was left laying in a crater* full of cracks*



You ARE aware that an Edo Tensei body is typically cracked at all times, yes?



> and had the typical Edo Tensei confetti coming off of it when the sealers first tried going for it.



The only 'confetti' shown was white, and as we see in this panel, the color of the flakes retain the Edo Tensei body's skin tone.

Which means said confetti was ripped from his outfit, making your evidence entirely irrelevant.



> The only reason they didn't catch him is because they didn't cut him _so_ seriously that he couldn't regenerate before the sealing process was completed.





> Madara's Susano'o _is tougher than Sasuke's_ considering that Ay's stationary Raigyaku Suihei went through Sasuke's ribcage and hit himself Sasuke in the neck while a falling Ay couldn't do _anything at all_ to Madara's ribcage even as it was being exposed to Mei's lava (which _did_ cause even it to at least _begin_ melting as seen when it re-emerged after the second coating of lava).



What the fuck does *ANY OF THIS* have to do with Jiraiya being capable of hurting Raikage, slowing him down, or otherwise changing the inevitable outcome of the battle?

Seriously, were you reading a different thread typing this? 

Especially that Madara tangent, Christ. 



> I also wouldn't be so quick to say attacks get launched off of the Raikage as easily as they did Susano'o because in spite of Temari and co being able to cut him pretty decently with their attacks (at least when he was in his base mode) Temari plus Gaara, Kankuro, and Darui couldn't even budge Sasuke's Susano'o despite attacking simultaneously



...so your pathetic attempt to prove a point derives from making a false assumption in that the building-level barrage that all four of those fighters launched was anywhere near as powerful as Rasenshuriken.

Good luck proving that, chump. 



> Jiraiya can probably get rid of the shroud and get a hit on base mode Raikage by waiting a second after Shima's Futon before adding in the oil and Katon components that result in Senpō: Goemon, especially since the "fire is poured into the wind" detail in the technique's databook entry suggests that the wind blast is released first anyway.



Two laughable begging-the-question statements on your part:

a) This assumes the Third will even be touched by Senpō: Goemon; comparatively, someone of the Third's speed level evaded Jugō's point-blank chakra cannons unscratched.

Senpō: Goemon has no speed feats or anything to suggest it's remotely fast, whereas the Third does. That's really all that's needed to dismiss your 'argument'.

b) And the wind component of Senpō: Goemon can just dispel the Third's shroud just like that - why? I'll remind you that Wind Style: Rasenshuriken, a technique that contains infinitely more energy than Goemon, is inherently a Wind Release technique, unlike the former, and it still couldn't actually damage the Third despite removing his shroud.

We know the Third's base body is, relatively, not that durable; Temari cut it open like sashimi. To remain undamaged after being hit by the most powerful Wind Release technique displayed in the manga despite having an elemental disadvantage lends credence to how resistant his shroud is to even its weakness, and therefore *YOU* have to prove Shima's Wind current or whatever can faze it.

But you can't, because it has no feats. So again, good luck. 



> No, it won't kill or even critically injure Raikage but it _will_ hurt if it connects, and it will _continue_ to hurt because if he's not an Edo Tensei he has no methods of healing himself in the fight, and Jiraiya can simply use the technique again, meaning it will hurt more, and more, and more over time.



"blah blah blah i'm just gonna keep saying goemon can hurt raikage despite having zero feats in general blah blah blah



> Those Jinchūriki pressured Naruto because they were coming from different angles right behind each other, not because of their speed.



If Naruto was actually faster than them, he'd have at least dodged the first attack by Fuu, who attacked him *from a frontal trajectory*.



> Just because Naruto decided to block Fū doesn't suggest that he _couldn't_ have dodged were he to have chosen that instead.



I don't know how stupid you take Naruto for, but he's aware of the lethality of a Version Two Jinchūriki given he witnessed the destructive aftermath of his Four-Tailed state, as well as the Killer Bee ink clones being literally blasted of by the *sheer force* of the Jinchūriki's release despite said clones being physically powerful enough to restrict fighters like Han (who flat-out overpowered Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto, at one point).

If you're going to suggest he made the conscious decision to just stand there and block the hit instead of dodging and counter-attacking via: Rasengan, chakra arms, God knows what else - then I'm going to be rational instead and conclude that Fuu was simply too fast for him.



> Kakashi and Gai would have been torn to shreds if those Jinchūriki were anywhere near the level of speed that would _force_ Naruto to block as opposed to dodge.



Not Six-Gated Gai, I hold him at the same level as regular-speed Ay (V1), so him going toe-to-toe with Version Two Jinchūriki is plausible especially with his taijutsu prowess.

Kakashi? The only counter-attack the Jinchūriki retaliated with was the one Kakashi couldn't dodge. 



> I don't see why they would have been any faster than Kn4 when they obviously weren't as physically strong as it was and the same shroud is responsible for both enhancements, and Orochimaru could outrun Kn4's attacks.



Four-Tailed Naruto remained rooted to the floor the entire fight, most likely because of Yamato's necklace. We never saw it attempt high-speed movement, only use its chakra arms which doesn't necessarily have to be on-par with its actual movement speed.



> Finally, Bee only managed to catch Utakata after he leapt into the air (where changing course is not possible without flight, which he does not have). When they were on the ground and he lashed out at them _he missed_, and Fū, Yugito, and Yagura apparently didn't find it difficult to just run around on top of him.



You even said this yourself, there are multiple targets attacking from multiple directions. Of course Gyūki wasn't going to catch many of them because his attention is divided between them.

Have six people chuck baseballs at you and see how many you can catch. It's the same concept. 

But we can tell that the six Jinchūriki have similar speed based off of this panel, and the fact that Gyūki managed to intercept one despite Fuu being fast enough to get a hit off of Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto by attacking head-on, is enough for me to say it probably caught the Third at one point or another.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Only some Tards would say pain arc sm naruto >>>>>> sm Jiraiya
> The only one who Said that naruto surpassed Jiraiya is Fukasaku and Most probably he was refering to the completely mastery of sage mode, there is nothing else that shows us or tells us that pain arc sm naruto is better than sm jiraiya. I actually gave you a good anlysis about that, but pf course you did not even read it.
> And despite your hate for Jiraiya, kishi Said that with knowledge he would have defeated pain, but naruto did not.
> About the wind part, you say yomi numa is uselles because it is nullified by raiton shroud, because raiton > doton, then why shima's wind would not nulify the raiton shroud, because fuuton > raiton
> And stop wanking the FRS, in db3 Jiraiya's chou Oodama rasengan it is Said to have the size of a mountain if exploded, which is much more than the FRS did not destroy lauzi either, stop the wank boy



-snip-

yes with knowledge jiriaya could have beat pain. i never doubt that. though i am shocked u mention it yet disregard sandaime statement of stalemating the 2nd strongest bijuu. -snip-

shima wont nullfy it because FRS did not. u wanna compare the 2?

elemental weakness is certainly in play but unless u were blind during that part of the manga yamato also explained the strength of the jutsu comes into play. sasuke genin katon wont do anyting to jounin temari futton 

hahah omg!! so u are now trying to claim odama rasengan is superior in fire power to FRS

@tasty muffin ill let u have this one. this should be fun


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## Duhul10 (Mar 25, 2015)

actually the shroud was nullified, both anime and manga show this, read please.
About the chou and FRS, these are kishi.s words not mine, rasenshuriken it is only more efficient because it can be thrown and it is faster. The comparison of the damage  it is impossible to be done because cho odama rasengan has never been used succesfully in the anime and manga

You do not even deserve my time so I will not allow you more, I will let -snip-


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 26, 2015)

No knowledge and Open field. No, Jiraiya can't win.

I think he needs either full knowledge or some kind of a landscape that benefits hits tactics. I can easily see Sandaime outmuscling him under these circumstances.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

i must point out even in base the raikage tanked the *best futton style user jutsu *
temari was the best in the entire 100000 strong alliance till naruto pulled off FRS and showed her. 

so temari 2nd best futton user tanked in base 
naruto FRS tanked with a cloak 

yh jiriaya got nothing to damage him especially not a stone sword


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## Empathy (Mar 29, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Madara's Susano'o _is tougher than Sasuke's_ considering that Ay's stationary Raigyaku Suihei went through Sasuke's ribcage and hit himself Sasuke in the neck while a falling Ay couldn't do _anything at all_ to Madara's ribcage



If I recall correctly, Madara's was a higher manifestation of _Susanoo_, as it included a full spinal cord with the ribcage, as opposed to just the ribs like with Sasuke. A did crack it a little I think, which is probably consistent with Madara's being a slightly more developed manifestation. Largely irrelevant to the point you were making, I know.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

Ay didn't crack it at all 
However it was as you said a higher manifestation of Susanoo


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## Empathy (Mar 29, 2015)




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## Kyu (Mar 29, 2015)

None of Jiraiya's senjutsu augmented offense is inflicting any significant damage to a shrouded old man third. Fukasaku & Shima's top genjutsu is his only hope of coming out of this battle alive. For him to incapacitate raikage he'd need to prevent the third from getting within striking distance. A little issue Jiraiya is facing is that his opponent is stronger, faster, more durable, and shits in his mouth when it comes to stamina.

With nowhere to hide? Jiraiya becomes Raikage's prison bitch.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2015)

Ei still didn't crack it on his own when we consider Mei's Lava Release was melting away at Madara's Susano'o Ribcage, quite a bit actually when we consider almost his whole Susano'o being engulfed by her Lava Release.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2015)

Empathy said:


> If I recall correctly, Madara's was a higher manifestation of _Susanoo_, as it included a full spinal cord with the ribcage, as opposed to just the ribs like with Sasuke. A did crack it a little I think, which is probably consistent with Madara's being a slightly more developed manifestation. Largely irrelevant to the point you were making, I know.



Maybe, but Sasuke's had a spinal cord when it first appeared _(1)_, and after that there was always a space where it would have been were it visible. I think Kishi might've just gotten lazy with that for the rest of that chapter tbqh, because it also makes brief appearances against Mei while Sasuke is still only using the ribcage _(2)_ _(3)_

As for the crack on Madara's- I always thought that was Mei's lava clumping up on the opposite side _(4)_, since Susano'o is see-through.



ATastyMuffin said:


> You ARE aware that an Edo Tensei body is typically cracked at all times, yes?



Oh please.

Look at Raikage here _(5)_ and here _(6)_ and here _(7)_ and here _(8)_ and here _(9)_ and before he got hit with FRS here _(10)_ and here _(11)_ and here _(12)_ and here _(14)_.

It's a far cry from this here _(15)_ _(16)_.

So is his appearance afterwards once he regenerated _(17)_ _(18)_ _(19)_ _(20)_.

Never is his body so full of cracks as the moment after it got hit by FRS, so we should attribute that cracking to FRS, not to him being an Edo Tensei.



> The only 'confetti' shown was white, and as we see in this panel, the color of the flakes retain the Edo Tensei body's skin tone.
> 
> Which means said confetti was ripped from his outfit, making your evidence entirely irrelevant.





He was damaged here and the flakes didn't retain his skin color _(21)_, and Raikage's outfit was never even touched here _(22)_.

So it does nothing to detract from that evidence.



> What the fuck does *ANY OF THIS* have to do with?



You equating Raikage and Susano'o. He is easier to damage than it is. 

If lava ranges from 700 to 1,200 C/1,292 to 2,192 F, Senpō: Goemon is stated to be thousands of degrees, and Mei's lava began to melt Susano'o, then if the Third Raikage gets hit with it it is going to damage him.



> ...so your pathetic attempt to prove a point derives from making a false assumption in that the building-level barrage that all four of those fighters launched was anywhere near as powerful as Rasenshuriken.



The only pathetic thing here is your ability to follow what somebody is actually saying. My point derives from this Temari+Gaara+Kankuro+Darui attack _(23)_, being anywhere near as powerful as Temari's attacks _(24)_ _(25)_ _(26)_, not FRS.



> a) This assumes the Third will even be touched by Senpō: Goemon; comparatively.



I'm not getting into that yet. I assumed that because of the way you worded your previous post. It seemed to be in the context of "even if it hit" since you were talking about attacks bouncing off of him and all that jazz.



> b) And the wind component of Senpō: Goemon can just dispel the Third's shroud just like that - why? I'll remind you that Wind Style: Rasenshuriken, a technique that contains infinitely more energy than Goemon, is inherently a Wind Release technique, unlike the former, and it still couldn't actually damage the Third despite removing his shroud.



What do you mean "unlike the former"? There is no such thing as a Fūton that is not inherently a Fūton. Shima launches a Fūton as the first step of the overall technique, it is step 1 of the technique that I'm saying dispels the shroud.

And FRS _did_ damage the Third Raikage after it removed his shroud.



> "blah blah blah i'm just gonna keep saying goemon can hurt raikage despite having zero feats in general blah blah blah



Please keep this crap in the kindergarten classroom.



> I don't know how stupid you take Naruto for, but he's aware of the lethality of a Version Two Jinchūriki given he witnessed the destructive aftermath of his Four-Tailed state, as well as the Killer Bee ink clones being literally blasted of by the *sheer force* of the Jinchūriki's release despite said clones being physically powerful enough to restrict fighters like Han (who flat-out overpowered Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto, at one point).
> 
> If you're going to suggest he made the conscious decision to just stand there and block the hit instead of dodging and counter-attacking via: Rasengan, chakra arms, God knows what else - then I'm going to be rational instead and conclude that Fuu was simply too fast for him.



Pretty stupid. The idea that Fū is so fast guys who outrun V2 Ay can't dodge her is also pretty stupid. Extremely stupid, really. It isn't rational that every V2 Jinchūriki and their mother is even faster than the guy who said he was the fastest man alive knowing full well his brother could transform into a V2 Jinchūriki, it's _*ir*rational_. I'm going to be nice and assume that you're not actually stupid and that you're just fanboying over the Jinchūriki, though.

Naruto didn't have any indicator that the destruction his Kn4 state caused was due to its _physical power_, and it wasn't anyway- it was due to it releasing giant waves of Chakra, ones much more potent than what dispersed those ink clones. Clones always have been and always will be glass cannons, and the clones were only able to restrain those Jinchūriki at all because they were still trying to recover from getting whipped up in the Eight Tails's whirlwind, hence Naruto saying "they're down" and Gyūki immediately saying "let's seal them _while we can_". A weakened Han that wasn't even using steam never overpowered KCM Naruto.



> Not Six-Gated Gai, I hold him at the same level as regular-speed Ay (V1), so him going toe-to-toe with Version Two Jinchūriki is plausible especially with his taijutsu prowess.



What good does holding Gai to be at the same level as regular speed Ay do? Naruto _outran_ Ay's *full speed*, so if Naruto was forced to block you'd have to be saying that the Jinchūriki are all faster than V2 Ay, meaning they still should have torn Gai apart, but no...we actually see Fū _blocking_ Gai.

Fū is so fast the guy that outruns V2 Ay has to block, and yet V1 Ay level speed is so fast that it has Fū blocking…ridiculous.

I don't know what you bring up the counter-attack thing for as if Gai to say could go toe-to-toe to them but not Kakashi, when Kakashi got hit by the same attack that Gai did. The counter-attack is not what you're claiming was too fast for Naruto, you're claiming Fū flew up to Naruto and hit him so fast that he was forced to block. The Jinchūriki ran up to Kakashi and Gai like that, too, though, and both had the time necessary to activate their Jutsu and charge at the Jinchūriki with them before they were ever hit, which is more than putting up a guard.

The irrational one is the one who would still insist that Naruto was somehow forced to block.



> Four-Tailed Naruto remained rooted to the floor the entire fight, most likely because of Yamato's necklace. We never saw it attempt high-speed movement, only use its chakra arms which doesn't necessarily have to be on-par with its actual movement speed.



The necklace didn't do anything. It only responded to the Tailed Beast suppression Chakra in Mokuton, and it wasn't until after that Kn4 fight that Yamato ever added a seal to it in order to attempt to restrain Naruto. I'd be surprised if the Chakra arms weren't on par with its movement speed. Remember Sasuke and Naruto's fight at the Valley of the End? Sasuke could still react to Naruto's actual movement speed but then got blitzed by a Chakra arm being elongated at him.



> You even said this yourself, there are multiple targets attacking from multiple directions. Of course Gyūki wasn't going to catch many of them because his attention is divided between them



They were all coming from the same direction when he first lashed out at them, and again Bee's tentacles are large enough to hit more than one of them at once due to their sheer size.

The difference between the time he missed and the time he caught one is that in one instance they were on a surface where they could change direction and in the other Utakata was not. He caught Utakata because he couldn't maneuver when Gyūki reached for him, not because he was fast.



> But we can tell that the six Jinchūriki have similar speed based off of this panel.



That doesn't tell us they all have similar speed any more than Kakashi dashing alongside Gated Gai tells us they have similar speed. Even if it did I fail to see how that would help your case...


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## Empathy (Mar 29, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Ei still didn't crack it on his own when we consider Mei's Lava Release was melting away at Madara's Susano'o Ribcage, quite a bit actually when we consider almost his whole Susano'o being engulfed by her Lava Release.



It was melting the back of it, while A pounded on the front. Mei didn't cover the front with lava until right after A left, when the crack was already there.



FlamingRain said:


> Maybe, but Sasuke's had a spinal cord when it first appeared _(1)_, and after that there was always a space where it would have been were it visible.



That just looks like where the part of the arm bone he was trying to form is connected to the ribs. There's a close-up of it in the middle-right panel. The spine is never evident in any pertinent instance where A bypasses the ribs. Chalking it up to repeated art error seems like a poor excuse, when there's a perfectly apparent explanation that it's the arm bone they showed a close-up on.



> I think Kishi might've just gotten lazy with that for the rest of that chapter tbqh, because it also makes brief appearances against Mei while Sasuke is still only using the ribcage _(2)_ _(3)_



By then Sasuke had already manifested the complete skeleton earlier. Him being able to do it then isn't odd, compared to only conjuring the lowest form of _Susanoo_ in his very first usage against A. Almost the entire time against Mei, Sasuke was trying to form higher levels of _Susanoo_, but collapsed and couldn't do it. That definitely wasn't art error or laziness; it was clearly intended to be there. It also doesn't create any inconsistencies between the ribs' durability, nor is it relevant to A breaching a more rudimentary form.



> As for the crack on Madara's- I always thought that was Mei's lava clumping up on the opposite side _(4)_, since Susano'o is see-through.



You can compare it to the other ribs and see the only rib that's cracked is the one A hit.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2015)

Empathy said:


> That just looks like where the part of the arm bone he was trying to form is connected to the ribs.



Well in that case...nvm what I just said there. Though I wasn't saying "error" since the space where the spine would have been were it drawn was consistently there.

But:



> You can compare it to the other ribs and see the only rib that's cracked is the one A hit.



How can you see that?

Plus Ay hit the top/middle of Susano'o, but the "crack" is on the side.


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## Empathy (Mar 29, 2015)

Going back to the panel I posted on the previous page (I'm too lazy to bust out my mad MS paint skills to highlight stuff at the moment), you can clearly see an intact rib to the left of the cracked one. A jumps off from the rib below the cracked one (to the right of it), so if his leg is there, that means his arm connected against the rib above the one he jumped off from (which is the cracked one). All the other ribs are lacking cracks in the other panels as well.

*Edit:* I could've sworn earlier today I read someone say _Susanoo_ ribs tanked _Senpou: Chou Oodama Rasengan_. I was all ready to disprove that, but now I can't find that post anywhere on the first page threads. Anyway, if Shima's fuuton deactivated A's shroud and Jiraiya hit him with _Chou Oodama Rasengan_, it'd probably hurt him pretty bad.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2015)

Empathy said:


> It was melting the back of it, while A pounded on the front. Mei didn't cover the front with lava until right after A left, when the crack was already there. .



 Sure, you can argue that, but considering a huge portion of Madara's Ribcage was melting away, that would mean the other parts of Madara's Susano'o will be incapable of resisting as much force as they normally would if they were not affected meaning the portion that wasn't affected by Mei's Lava would have to compensate for the portion of the Ribcage that was affected.

 Similar to a bridge. If one piece falls apart, the others have to compensate for that.

 A little wordy, but hopefully that made sense (somewhat).


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## Empathy (Mar 29, 2015)

A cracking Madara's _Susanoo_ rib was a supplemental side-point to my main point, which I've already proven was Madara's _Susanoo_ being a more advanced version of Sasuke's at the time (of which I said my entire point was mostly irrelevant). That makes discussing this nearly doubly irrelevant. I don't enjoy debating a nit-picky topic to such an extent. The crack A left was very minor in the first place. Anyway, the bridge analogy isn't a good one, because the truss system utilized in most modern day construction is inexpensive, so if an integral component is damaged, the whole thing usually collapses on itself. 

That isn't the case with _Susanoo_ ribs, where if some ribs take damage they don't all tumble like a risky Jenga move. If one side of a building were on fire, the opposite wall could still maintain its integrity provided it were unaffected by the fire. The only weakness would be its foundation to stay in place would be reduced due the reduction in mass, which was the entire purpose of A hitting the front (so it'd sink down fully submerged in the lava) in the first place. That doesn't weaken the strength of the unaffected wall, though. I'm a volunteer firefighter, so hopefully I've remembered that correctly.


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## ARGUS (Mar 29, 2015)

we have something as powerful as a KCM FRS (3x the power of a  normal FRS) having no effect on the raikage and possibly only doing superficial damage, 
yet im seeing posts stating that the toads fuuton or Jiraiyas Rasengans are enough to take him out? Lol

whats also funny is that the thirds durability doesnt just come from his RNY, its his body itself thats durable, 
his RNY is the same as V1 Ay, where his armor was breached by the chidori, yet the difference in durability between Ay and his father is astronomical, 
FRS breached the raikages armor, yet it was his body that enabled him to survive such a blow, 

so even if jiraiya manages to cancel the raikages shroud, his puny attacks are as non factor as they can be, whilst the raikage through his faster speed and reactions comes right up to jiraiya and one shots him



Empathy said:


> *Edit:** I could've sworn earlier today I read someone say Susanoo ribs tanked Senpou: Chou Oodama Rasengan. I was all ready to disprove that*, but now I can't find that post anywhere on the first page threads. Anyway, if Shima's fuuton deactivated A's shroud and Jiraiya hit him with _Chou Oodama Rasengan_, it'd probably hurt him pretty bad.



yeah thats a huge misconception often used by uchiha fans, or madara fans, 
becamse the rasengan was drilling the ribcage layer upon merre contact, hence why madara resorted  to V3 to push naruto back, emphasising further on why ribcage wouldnt have sufficed


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

Nikute GG
Goemon 
It can be 10000000 degrees if u want it to be . IF sandaime got up from what is to be cellular damage without being pinned down long enough to be sealed. He is running through no speed goemon and impaling jiriaya


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## Kai (Mar 31, 2015)

Jiraiya's Taijutsu and Ninjutsu won't work against the 3rd's body, therefore he must use genjutsu. If he continues CQC he will die, but J-man is intelligent enough to realize that after a few exchanges. 

Kage Bunshin, Shadow Manipulation technique, and smoke bombs are all viable tools to stall for completion of Frog Song. J-man's stalling tactics are more impressive than Dodai's.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

and during those exchanges u are assuming the Raikage never touches jiraiya?
because nikute lands jiriaya is bleeding


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 31, 2015)

Kai said:


> Jiraiya's Taijutsu and Ninjutsu won't work against the 3rd's body, therefore he must use genjutsu. If he continues CQC he will die, but J-man is intelligent enough to realize that after a few exchanges.
> 
> Kage Bunshin, Shadow Manipulation technique, and smoke bombs are all viable tools to stall for completion of Frog Song. J-man's stalling tactics are more impressive than Dodai's.



 I don't understand how Jiraiya can get out of the 3rd Raikage's range to create a seal. After all, KCM Naruto couldn't even create a hand seal against V1 Raikage.


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## Bonly (Apr 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I don't understand how Jiraiya can get out of the 3rd Raikage's range to create a seal.



Dodai was able to react to the V1 Sandaime who was coming from behind after destroying the platform he was one by making a rubber ball and saving Naruto. If he could see the Sandaime's movement and react to the Sandaime after he was talking to Naruto then there's a good chance that Jiraiya in Sage Mode can react to him as well and with he has a god shot to get out of said range with his own speed along with the help of two sage toads and their tricks.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

true but then he is getting out of range to hide just to have frogs croak 
revealing his position


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 2, 2015)

Its an open field, I don't see how he can retreat to a safe location or completely move out of Raikage's LOS.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

@Grimm *having reconsidered *
jiraiaya would win if he isnt killed early on

as for LOS, dust cloud, kage bunshin, toad gourd prison, toad army, frog call  are all ways he can keep his distance
till frog call 

however why i say he looses is because he is more than likely to engage at close range which means A tanks his attack and nikute him to death. if jiriaya has knowledge he wins. no doubt there


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Grimm *having reconsidered *
> jiraiaya would win if he isnt killed early on
> 
> as for LOS, dust cloud, kage bunshin, toad gourd prison, toad army, frog call  are all ways he can keep his distance
> ...



The thing is, I don't see Jiraiya keeping his distance from a significantly faster opponent, at least not consistently.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

with knowledge he should be able to. off the bat dust cloud then kage bunshin. 

jiriaya takes that time to set up. gourd prison, and summon frogs. he could hide in bunta mouth. 

but yh if jiriaya engages due to lack of knowledge then he wont be getting away. he must not engage from the start to have a shot at winning. 

Sadly he will engage in this scenario therefore he will loose. when A powers through his attack and 1 fingers him to death


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## Duhul10 (Apr 2, 2015)

What makes sandaime significantly faster than sm Jiraiya
Ok, he seems faster just because of portrayal, but from what it was shown, sandaime it was not very very veeery impressive. Per total he is faster, but I hope you are not talking about a blitz or running circles around Jiraiya because that is not happening


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

@duhul it doesnt need to happen though. Sandaime need not run circles. he has no reason to. he only need run straight at jiriaya. and if jiriaya foolishly engages he dies. 

if jiraiya backs up and sets up distractions he wins.


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2015)

I'm not actually sure that Sandaime is "faster" at all, at least in terms of dodging things.

The _4th_ Raikage is the one hyped to be on par with legendary speedsters _without_ the additional effects of speed-enhancing techniques like Raiton Chakra Mode. The 3rd Raikage was noted to be fast by Naruto, but that Raiton Shroud could still take somebody on...say, the 4.5 speed-tier and make them a higher level speedster. 

Base Jiraiya is on that 4.5 tier as well though, and then we have to factor in Sage Mode. Jiraiya's nerve transmission speed may not be on par with that of the 3rd Raikage's (in RCM), but as a Sage he is able to take preemptive measures in order to avoid oncoming attacks because of Danger Sensing. 

For example, let's say Person A has Sage Mode and Person B has Raiton Chakra Mode. I have a pistol cocked, loaded, and aimed at each, with my finger on the trigger. When I go to shoot Person B, the time it takes for the brain to recognize that the trigger has been pulled and transmit the "move" signal to the body is drastically reduced, allowing Person B to move out of the bullet's path before it leaves the gun and reaches him. Normally this is impossible because by the time the brain is finished telling the body to move, the bullet is already on its way, meaning it's too late. 

On the flip side, When I go to shoot Person A, his sensing (precognition) would let him know when I'm about to pull the trigger, and he would simply move out of the way right before I did so.

Precognition and enhanced reflexes aren't the same thing, but in the end you should get the same result; avoiding an oncoming attack. The only possible difference in speed between the 3rd & Jiraiya would be flicker speed, but both are untested, really.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm not actually sure that Sandaime is "faster" at all.



he isnt slower



> The _4th_ Raikage is the one hyped to be on par with legendary speedsters _without_ the additional effects of speed-enhancing techniques like Raiton Chakra Mode. The 3rd Raikage was noted to be fast by Naruto, but that Raiton Shroud could still take somebody on...say, the 4.5 speed-tier and make them a higher level speedster.



and RCM is said to boost a person natural body beyond its limits. and yes the raikage did dodge FRS twice. the first time he had sun in his eyes. that in itself is fast. Kishi mentions the raikage as fast when he has naruto say it. jiriaya was never mentioned to be fast by anyone. despite being fast 



> Base Jiraiya is on that 4.5 tier as well though, and then we have to factor in Sage Mode. Jiraiya's nerve transmission speed may not be on par with that of the 3rd Raikage's (in RCM), but as a Sage he is able to take preemptive measures in order to avoid oncoming attacks because of Danger Sensing.



which isnt as good as naruto's due to less sage chakra and an imperfect sage mode. danger sensing isnt the same as having ur reflexes boosted. a reflex boost is still better. you have watched wanted with Angelina jolie i assume. well thats a reflex boost. Danger sensing is more or less what a spider has. hairs sense the change in air current etc. here its the chakra around their bodies which sense the incoming attack. 



> For example, let's say Person A has Sage Mode and Person B has Raiton Chakra Mode. When I shoot Person B with a gun, the time it takes for the brain to recognize that the gun has been fired and transmit the "dodge" signal to the body is drastically reduced, allowing Person B to side-step the shot. Normally this is impossible because by the time the brain is finished telling the body to move, the bullet has already hit it. When I go to shoot Person A, his sensing (precognition) would let him know when I'm about to pull the trigger, and he would simply move out of the way right before I fired the shot.



doesnt work at all like that but ok. for the person to know u are pulling the trigger they would have to see u pull it. now that information will register slower in their mind that someone with a boost in synapes. naruto perfect sage mode, Ei perfected RCM. Ei has better reflexes and is faster. 




> Precognition and enhanced reflexes aren't the same thing, but in the end you should get the same result; avoiding an oncoming attack. The only possible difference in speed between the 3rd & Jiraiya would be flicker speed, but both are untested, really.



neither would be blitzing the other however. from what kishi portraryed the raikage will be faster. and would overwhelm at close range. because he will never need to dodge. jiraiya would need to dodge an attack. 

making is attack speed ultimately slower


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2015)

What exactly about my post are you refuting? It seems we basically agree.

However I will note that my example was originally poorly worded, but it was only meant to demonstrate the difference between reacting and "pro(pre?)acting." The guy with RCM is reacting to a stimulus, which would be my finger pulling back the trigger, and getting out of the way. The guy with foresight will move out of the way in the moment before I move my finger.


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## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

Kai said:


> Jiraiya's Taijutsu and Ninjutsu won't work against the 3rd's body, therefore he must use genjutsu. If he continues CQC he will die, but J-man is intelligent enough to realize that after a few exchanges.
> 
> Kage Bunshin, Shadow Manipulation technique, and smoke bombs are all viable tools to stall for completion of Frog Song. J-man's stalling tactics are more impressive than Dodai's.



Ninjutsu does work depending on how fast it is tho. That's how Temari was able to turn him into pieces. Naruto used 1 FRS which made the lightning armour vanish, if he followed that with another 1 directly, the 3rd Raikage would have been defeated by it as well...


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

@hussain so please give an example of jutsu jiraiya can keep using in quick succession  to breach sandaime defense. just for the lolz. go on 

also what termari did was when the sandaime was in base. nice try though 

@rocky. 

your right. juubito did show how sensing skills was used to preemptively block amaterasu. so in that way you are right. though its still highly reliant on the user physical speed. 

RCM gives the user a greater boost in physical speed


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## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

> @hussain so please give an example of jutsu jiraiya can keep using in quick succession to breach sandaime defense. just for the lolz. go on
> 
> also what termari did was when the sandaime was in base. nice try though



- He uses his mega Rassengan, then a clone use it to. 

- Of course silly because they were using those attacks before which made the armour vanish. 
We have seen the Raikage using his lightning armour before that. Don't tell me you think it vanished by itself.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

ok so jiriaya and his clone hit raikage who sits there and does nothing. despite him being able to nikute that shit away causing it to explode which would do more harm to jiriaya than it would to himself 


oh u never heard of deactivating a technique. 

i guess itachi always uses susanoo. or naruto can use sage mode forever or feels the need 2. ok. didnt know that


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## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

> ok so jiriaya and his clone hit raikage who sits there and does nothing. despite him being able to nikute that shit away causing it to explode which would do more harm to jiriaya than it would to himself



you asked to what he can do. I never said that Raikage will sit and watch. I am only giving you a possibility.  




> oh u never heard of deactivating a technique.



Surely you haven't forgetting that they are ET, and their jutsu activates automatically which is what happened when Gaara tried to seal them, have you?


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

u seem to be forgetting that the panel kishi showed. raikage shroud wasnt active before the attack hit. so how can u claim the dispelled it

secondly if the did dispel it wont temari have mentioned it 

well u mentioned a fairly dumb impossible possibility. 

their jutsu acts as autodefense. which means when it needs 2. it clearly didnt need to to tank the none sense wind attacks temari and the fodders threw at him. which is why it wasnt active before the technique hit

and wasnt activated till he dodged FRS. in any case tanking FRS which btw is a several wind blades slicing you up. in a vortex. so many cuts kakashi eye cant count. so many thats it can damage on a molecular level. 
if he can tank one of those jiriaya ninjutsu can never hurt him if he stood there and took it for days


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> with knowledge he should be able to. off the bat dust cloud then kage bunshin.
> 
> jiriaya takes that time to set up. gourd prison, and summon frogs. he could hide in bunta mouth.
> 
> ...



He has no knowledge in this scenario.
And even if he did, I think it'd be pretty OOC to retreat off the bat, given he had a vague idea of how powerful Rinnegan was or would be, but he didn't choose to retreat until he was being overwhelmed by Pain.

I am not saying that he can't, but rather it is very unlikely in this scenario the fight starts in an open field against someone who can close the distance before he can retreat.  And even if he manages to put a distance by tricking Raikage with a KB or something, it is still an open field, Raikage will locate and go after him.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

@Grimm with no knowledge i agree
what to tell OP what his posts says. i know there is no knowledge lol


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## ARGUS (Apr 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm not actually sure that Sandaime is "faster" at all, at least in terms of dodging things.


He is on par with V1 Ay, 
dodged an FRS which travels the same speed as a susanoo arrow whilst being blinded by the sun with literally no difficulty, 
and that FRS speed was boosted further by KCM chakra arms 

Jiraiya has shown literally nothing comparable to raikages speed feats, 



> The _4th_ Raikage is the one hyped to be on par with legendary speedsters _without_ the additional effects of speed-enhancing techniques like Raiton Chakra Mode.


everytime he is hyped, he is hyped thanks to his speed through RNY, 
absolutely nowhere has he been hyped without even his RNY, 
his speed without it would be nothing, since that is pretty much what grants him good speed
never has he been hyped without it 



> The 3rd Raikage was noted to be fast by Naruto, but that Raiton Shroud could still take somebody on...say, the 4.5 speed-tier and make them a higher level speedster.


He is still faster than jiraiya so that is all that matters, 
he may not blitz him, but jiraiya isnt evading his attacks, definitely not, so nukite one shots 



> Base Jiraiya is on that 4.5 tier as well though, and then we have to factor in Sage Mode. *Jiraiya's nerve transmission speed may not be on par with that of the 3rd Raikage's (in RCM)*, but as a Sage he is able to take preemptive measures in order to avoid oncoming attacks because of Danger Sensing.


He doesnt have the physical reflexes to claim that he can do such thing, 
using DB referrences is an incredibly weak basis, and the bold contradicts your point, 
because one with faster reactions and physical movements would be landing blows alot easier 



> For example, let's say Person A has Sage Mode and Person B has Raiton Chakra Mode. I have a pistol cocked, loaded, and aimed at each, with my finger on the trigger. When I go to shoot Person B, the time it takes for the brain to recognize that the trigger has been pulled and transmit the "move" signal to the body is drastically reduced, allowing Person B to move out of the bullet's path before it leaves the gun and reaches him. Normally this is impossible because by the time the brain is finished telling the body to move, the bullet is already on its way, meaning it's too late.
> 
> On the flip side, When I go to shoot Person A, his sensing (precognition) would let him know when I'm about to pull the trigger, and he would simply move out of the way right before I did so.



Except this is only valid when both person A and person B have the same physical speed, which in this case is clearly not the case

Jiraiya may see the  raikage coming and attacking him, however his reflexes and his body arent fast enough to help him evade his blow before he comes and up finishes him 

sensing may allow a person to react better but that doesnt mean that their reactions are above any non sensor, 
a perfect example for this is V2 Ay being above SM nauto and jiraiya in that department 



> Precognition and enhanced reflexes aren't the same thing, but in the end you should get the same result; avoiding an oncoming attack. The only possible difference in speed between the 3rd & Jiraiya would be flicker speed, but both are untested, really.



anticipating an attack is usless if you dont have the physical means to either evade it or survive it,  so at the end of the day its only the enhanced reflexes that allow someone to evade an oncoming attack, 
third raikage evading an FRS with no diff, whilst jiraiya failing to evade a shurado attack should already be evident enough as to why he is above him,



Rocky said:


> What exactly about my post are you refuting? It seems we basically agree.
> 
> However I will note that my example was originally poorly worded, but it was only meant to demonstrate the difference between reacting and "pro(pre?)acting." The guy with RCM is reacting to a stimulus, which would be my finger pulling back the trigger, and getting out of the way. The guy with foresight will move out of the way in the moment before I move my finger.



except the person with superior reflexes would still note this fact and land it in such a way where the sensor wont be avoiding, 
raikages speed is faster and if his reactions are better, than jiraiya is not avoiding anythng at all


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## Kai (Apr 3, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> everytime he is hyped, he is hyped thanks to his speed through RNY,
> absolutely nowhere has he been hyped without even his RNY,
> his speed without it would be nothing, since that is pretty much what grants him good speed
> never has he been hyped without it


He probably meant A's (4th's) reflexes, which has certainly been hyped without Raiton no Yoroi.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> He is on par with V1 Ay,
> dodged an FRS which travels the same speed as a susanoo arrow whilst being blinded by the sun with literally no difficulty,
> and that FRS speed was boosted further by KCM chakra arms



true. 



> Jiraiya has shown literally nothing comparable to raikages speed feats,



this is true. however doesnt mean jiriaya cant evade the raikage. u dont need to be physically as fast or faster to counter. take neji vs base lee. lee is faster. however neji's perks allow him to win


> everytime he is hyped, he is hyped thanks to his speed through RNY,
> absolutely nowhere has he been hyped without even his RNY,
> his speed without it would be nothing, since that is pretty much what grants him good speed
> never has he been hyped without it



false Ei reflexes and speed are hyped to be akin to minato. in base by C. then C says when he puts the cloak on not even sharingan can keep up. Also base Ei blitz the shit out of zetsu. from a sitting position 



> He is still faster than jiraiya so that is all that matters,
> he may not blitz him, but jiraiya isnt evading his attacks, definitely not, so nukite one shots



jiraiya wont evade every attack nor do so consistently but he certainly can evade. he isnt helpless 



> He doesnt have the physical reflexes to claim that he can do such thing,
> using DB referrences is an incredibly weak basis, and the bold contradicts your point,
> because one with faster reactions and physical movements would be landing blows alot easier



this is true



> Except this is only valid when both person A and person B have the same physical speed, which in this case is clearly not the case



true



> Jiraiya may see the  raikage coming and attacking him, however his reflexes and his body arent fast enough to help him evade his blow before he comes and up finishes him



doubt this. 



> sensing may allow a person to react better but that doesnt mean that their reactions are above any non sensor,
> a perfect example for this is V2 Ay being above SM nauto and jiraiya in that department



true



> anticipating an attack is usless if you dont have the physical means to either evade it or survive it,  so at the end of the day its only the enhanced reflexes that allow someone to evade an oncoming attack,
> third raikage evading an FRS with no diff, whilst jiraiya failing to evade a shurado attack should already be evident enough as to why he is above him,



true



> except the person with superior reflexes would still note this fact and land it in such a way where the sensor wont be avoiding,
> raikages speed is faster and if his reactions are better, than jiraiya is not avoiding anythng at all



agreed


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## FlamingRain (Apr 3, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> except the person with superior reflexes would still note this fact and land it in such a way where the sensor wont be avoiding,
> raikages speed is faster and if his reactions are better, than jiraiya is not avoiding anythng at all



So why did that not happen with Sasuke vs. Haku, Sakura vs. Ino, Sakura and Chiyo vs. Sasori, Shikamaru vs. Hidan, Sasuke vs. Deidara, Sasuke vs. Raikage, etc?

The fact of the matter is that ninja are more than capable of keeping up with opponents faster and more reflexive than they are. Sage Jiraiya is faster than Kage Summit Sasuke, who avoided Ay's elbow and landed a Chidori to his chest. If the Third Raikage ~ V1 Ay in speed Jiraiya could probably avoid being hit an attack of his like that worn out _clone_ of Naruto did.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> So why did that not happen with Sasuke vs. Haku, Sakura vs. Ino, Sakura and Chiyo vs. Sasori, Shikamaru vs. Hidan, Sasuke vs. Deidara, Sasuke vs. Raikage, etc?



sasuke was hardly keeping up. if he didnt have the jutsu he did. he would have died casually. susanoo and amaterasu saved him. all he could do was turn his head. 
sasuke did blitz deidara casually. btw. also said speed allowed sasuke to evade deidara with more ease than deidara did sasuke. 

haku was shit blitzing sasuke. till he got tired. 

sakura and ino. i dont get why u bring those 2 up. explain. Same for chiyo and sasori dont get why they there



> The fact of the matter is that ninja are more than capable of keeping up with opponents faster and more reflexive than they are. Sage Jiraiya is faster than Kage Summit Sasuke, who avoided Ay's elbow and landed a Chidori to his chest. If the Third Raikage ~ V1 Ay in speed Jiraiya could probably avoid being hit by his attack like that worn out _clone_ of Naruto did.



sage jiraiya doesnt have sharingan prediction though. but i agree jiriaya can avoid. 
do remember how it ended for sasuke after sasuke counter. the same thing could happen here. just saying.


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2015)

The point is, the faster shinobi doesn't necessarily come out on top during every exchange. I'll be the first to admit speed can be underrated around here sometimes, but Sandaime Raikage isn't so fast that he just runs circles around Sage Jiraiya, a fighter who isn't slow himself and can _sense_. Sandaime Raikage is fast and reflexive, no doubt, however speed isn't the focus of his hype like it is with his son. 

Sage Jiraiya doesn't _need_ to be as fast as Sandaime Raikage in order to compete with him.


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2015)

> =Icegaze;53267709]
> u seem to be forgetting that the panel kishi showed. raikage shroud wasnt active before the attack hit. so how can u claim the dispelled it



Obviously I did not, which is why I told you they were attacking him before, which was Temari stated as well. 

he said they wouldn't be fast enough.
"We have been attacking him" Notice even in this page his shoulder was regenerating. 



> secondly if the did dispel it wont temari have mentioned it


Well, he did not dispel it by himself, so... 



> well u mentioned a fairly dumb impossible possibility.


enlighten us to why it's impossible then... 


> their jutsu acts as autodefense. which means when it needs 2. it clearly didnt need to to tank the none sense wind attacks temari and the fodders threw at him. which is why it wasnt active before the technique hit



I am not sure if you are trying to fool yourself with this nonsense or what in all honestly. 
The Mizukage has that liquid body, and he can't be harm physically, did his Genjutsu vanish magically? 



> and wasnt activated till he dodged FRS.



what? 


> in any case tanking FRS which btw is a several wind blades slicing you up. in a vortex. so many cuts kakashi eye cant count. so many thats it can damage on a molecular level.
> if he can tank one of those jiriaya ninjutsu can never hurt him if he stood there and took it for days


Yet he turned into peices from Temari and the others.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sasuke was hardly keeping up. if he didnt have the jutsu he did. he would have died casually. susanoo and amaterasu saved him. all he could do was turn his head.



I'm talking about when Sasuke avoided getting hit with Ay's elbow and used Chidori. _V1_ Ay.



> sasuke did blitz deidara casually. btw. also said speed allowed sasuke to evade deidara with more ease than deidara did sasuke.



If Sasuke blitzed Deidara he would have chopped him in half. He didn't though. Deidara managed to get out of the way despite Sasuke being faster (and despite being distracted by Tobi). If what ARGUS said were true that wouldn't have happened.



> haku was shit blitzing sasuke. till he got tired.



With his ice mirrors. Before that he actually got hit by Sasuke, despite still being the more reflexive fighter of the two. Going by ARGUS's logic that shouldn't have happened, but it did...



> sakura and ino. i dont get why u bring those 2 up. explain. Same for chiyo and sasori dont get why they there



Ino was faster than Sakura was, but that didn't stop Sakura from keeping up with her. Sakura could still react to Ino's moves and even land her own. Same thing with Sasori vs. Sakura and Chiyo.

My point is just that having superior reflexes doesn't necessarily mean that you'll notice your target trying to avoid _and also_ be able to coordinate your attack to strike them anyway. Basically the same thing Thunder is getting at.



> do remember how it ended for sasuke after sasuke counter. the same thing could happen here. just saying.



It _could_. I don't know if it _most likely would_, though, unless Raikage already knew to go ahead and lean into the attack in order to catch Jiraiya.

He starts off with no knowledge here, though. The event that lets Raikage know he should lean into Jiraiya's attack is going to be the same one that lets Jiraiya know he isn't going to get anywhere with his Taijutsu moves (which don't have penetrative properties like Chidori does in case that makes any difference), and Taijutsu isn't Jiraiya's preferred method of combat anyway.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2015)

Flicker speed doesn't matter if already in melee range, and the regular combat speed of most characters can be handled with advanced anticipation skill (or precognition). The only guys I can think of that have blazing fast combat speed are Hachimon users and God Tiers.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm talking about when Sasuke avoided getting hit with Ay's elbow and used Chidori. _V1_ Ay.



ok



> If Sasuke blitzed Deidara he would have chopped him in half. He didn't though. Deidara managed to get out of the way despite Sasuke being faster (and despite being distracted by Tobi). If what ARGUS said were true that wouldn't have happened.



sasuke still cut though it was a minor cut



> With his ice mirrors. Before that he actually got hit by Sasuke, despite still being the more reflexive fighter of the two. Going by ARGUS's logic that shouldn't have happened, but it did...



how is haku the more reflexive fighter? his speed comes from mirrors



> Ino was faster than Sakura was, but that didn't stop Sakura from keeping up with her. Sakura could still react to Ino's moves and even land her own. Same thing with Sasori vs. Sakura and Chiyo.



they were both very slow and weak. didnt even know ino was faster



> My point is just that having superior reflexes doesn't necessarily mean that you'll notice your target trying to avoid _and also_ be able to coordinate your attack to strike them anyway. Basically the same thing Thunder is getting at.



yh of course. it doesnt mean that no one implied it. 



> It _could_. I don't know if it _most likely would_, though, unless Raikage already knew to go ahead and lean into the attack in order to catch Jiraiya.



Why not? raikage again need not alter his momentum or even try to dodge. he muscles through jiraiya attack and its in that instance he can hit jiriaya. which is what Ei did. he took advantage of his durability over tryign to use speed. 



> He starts off with no knowledge here, though. The event that lets Raikage know he should lean into Jiraiya's attack is going to be the same one that lets Jiraiya know he isn't going to get anywhere with his Taijutsu moves (which don't have penetrative properties like Chidori does in case that makes any difference), and Taijutsu isn't Jiraiya's preferred method of combat anyway.



ah smells of excuse. raikage basic fighting style is to tank attacks and counter attack. its in the description of nikute. he uses his durable body to tank shit then strike. 

its not its ninjutsu. all of which serve no purpose in direct confrontation. sadly jiriaya is more likely to engage with odama rasengan than with other delay tactic jutsu. 

its in that engagement that if not careful he dies. because Raikage could simply muscle through the attack and use nikute to kill jiriaya. 

one more time for everyone. raikage doesnt need to be much faster to have a speed advantage here. he doesnt need to dodge that plays alot in cqc here. imagine tryign to win a boxing match with someone who never had to block or dodge u. he could just keep throwing punches at you. 

i.e quicker counter attacks. the raikage beats jiriaiya on the counter.


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## Blu-ray (Apr 3, 2015)

Seems like a pretty straightforward scenario in the Raikage's favor. Jiraiya flat out doesn't possess the attack power to hurt him, the speed difference means Jiraiya won't be landing a hit to begin with, and the stamina difference means J man would get outlasted anyway.

Immobilizing and trapping is the next option, but of all the options Jiraiya has, none would work against Sandaime. Yomi Numa can't hold him with Raiton Armor, Frog Song takes too long, and Sandaime would just bulldoze his way out of toad mouth bind. Far to fast to get sucked into a toad gourd prison too. Hell even if you tossed in full knowledge Jiraiya's reflexes aren't on Naruto's level, so it's unlikely he could even trick him like Naruto did.

I can't see a single out for Jiraiya. The Raikage's a freaking Juggernaut, so Jiraiya would be hard pressed to even stall him.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Why is there an assumption here that Sandaime is Faster than Sennin Modo-Jiriaya. Raiton Chakra Mode, does not increase ones physical movement "speed". It powers up their reflexes and increases their reaction speed. Reason Ei gets quicker when he amplifys RNY is not because his movement speed is increasing, but because he is able to now use Shunshin quicker in response to whatever action the enemy is performing, such as Sasuke's casting Amaterasu. 

That's the difference between physically moving quicker and having superior reactions. The later is what RNY does.

So in the case of SM-Jiriaya vs Sandaime, there is little to nothing indicating that Sandaime's physical-movement speed is better than someone who starts off already quite fast [4.5] and than is boosted by Sennin Modo. Sandaime's reflexes however are boosted well above SM-Jiriaya's by RNY, however SM-Jiriaya has his own reaction time augmentation in the form of SM Danger-Sensing and Chakra-Sensing, which is better than simply amping ones reflexes. Chakra Sensing allows Jiraiya to sense the moment someone begins to use a Jutsu, well before they release it and react; Danger Sensing allows one to predict the enemies movements and react. Precognition is better than amped reflexes. That's exactly why Sasuke w/ Three-Tome, despite being inferior in movement-speed to Ei and vastly inferior in reflexes to Ei, was still reacting to Ei's attacks and countering him. This is also the same reason Dat-Clone trolled Sandaime's speed and countered him to such huge extent.

SM-Naruto and SM-Jiraiya are holistically faster than Sandaime. Their movement speed while enhanced by Senjutsu is at least comparable (if not debatably better) and their reaction time is better due to their Sensing being > RNY. 

Only Ei has the potential to be better or equivalent, and that is because Ei starts out from a such an absurdly higher point than ether Naruto and Jiriaya in Reflexes, with his Base-Reflexes being already a match for fucking Minato. Which is also why Ei is faster than his father.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2015)

Somebody with true precognition (like a Sage) will always respond to a stimulus before a person with quick reflexes (like v2 A) will. That's just common sense. 

If SM Naruto was to race v2 A, Naruto would begin running at the exact moment that the gun goes off (because he knows exactly when that will happen), while A would have to wait until he heard the sound of the shot. Of course, since v2 A has incredible reflexes he could respond to Naruto taking off next to him nearly instantly and basically be at no disadvantage, but _technically_ Naruto did start first.

I can also compare it to football. The offensive line knows the snap count, meaning that they know exactly when the ball will be snapped before the Center actually hikes it. That way, the rest of the line will be in position to block right as the ball is hiked, and opposing defenders don't get to run freely at the Quaterback _even if those defenders have better reflexes than the O-line._


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Why is there an assumption here that Sandaime is Faster than Sennin Modo-Jiriaya. Raiton Chakra Mode, does not increase ones physical movement "speed". It powers up their reflexes and increases their reaction speed. Reason Ei gets quicker when he amplifys RNY is not because his movement speed is increasing, but because he is able to now use Shunshin quicker in response to whatever action the enemy is performing, such as Sasuke's casting Amaterasu.



this annoying battledome rule called feats! and by feats he is faster. sorry u just said reflexes and reaction. they the same thing. however u did translate it and the cloak does boost the speed. at least it did in what u translate. i find it odd u forget. the last bit u entirely made up. 
pushing his shroud to the max gives him more speed and better reactions

*Raiton Chakra Mode

Raiton Chakra collects on the body, it's a body invigoration ninjutsu. From inside the body lightning gushes out, the speed of ones nerve transmissions rises. The body is wrapped in lightning, the jutsu durability is like that of armor. The Raikages' application of it causes their combat power to rise considerably.

It managed to chase Naruto's Bijuu Chakra Mode, however it was inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash*

the last bit obvious implies thanks to the shroud the raikage had the speed to chase after naruto. you add that with bee statement about not being able to go any faster than V2 Ei and the obvious conclusion drawn is it boosts speed



> That's the difference between physically moving quicker and having superior reactions. The later is what RNY does.



also boosts speed. when Ei amped up. killer bee u cant go much faster than that. implying amping the shroud was increasing his speed. therefore shroud does increase speed



> So in the case of SM-Jiriaya vs Sandaime, there is little to nothing indicating that Sandaime's physical-movement speed is better than someone who starts off already quite fast [4.5] and than is boosted by Sennin Modo. Sandaime's reflexes however are boosted well above SM-Jiriaya's by RNY, however SM-Jiriaya has his own reaction time augmentation in the form of SM Danger-Sensing and Chakra-Sensing, which is better than simply amping ones reflexes. Chakra Sensing allows Jiraiya to sense the moment someone begins to use a Jutsu, well before they release it and react; Danger Sensing allows one to predict the enemies movements and react. Precognition is better than amped reflexes. That's exactly why Sasuke w/ Three-Tome, despite being inferior in movement-speed to Ei and vastly inferior in reflexes to Ei, was still reacting to Ei's attacks and countering him. This is also the same reason Dat-Clone trolled Sandaime's speed and countered him to such huge extent.



sadly everything indicates he is faster. u are the only poster who disagrees. like the only one. 
what feats does jiriaya have? or statements from characters?



> SM-Naruto and SM-Jiraiya are holistically faster than Sandaime. Their movement speed while enhanced by Senjutsu is at least comparable (if not debatably better) and their reaction time is better due to their Sensing being > RNY.



neither are  implied or stated  to be. but u dont need to be faster to dodge someone. take lee and neji

however whats certain is you are grasping at straws jiriaya got no statements or speed feats at all. he got 4.5 in speed good. 3rd raikage got no DB stats. but based on naruto statement about all raikage being fast and him being a specialist its easy to give him a 5. so jiriaya 4.5 dont mean much. 

Even neji has 4.5 in speed. i dont know any established taijutsu specialist that wont be in the 4-5 ball park. so not sure why u mention DB stats when the raikage doesnt have stats



> Only Ei has the potential to be better or equivalent, and that is because Ei starts out from a such an absurdly higher point than ether Naruto and Jiriaya in Reflexes, with his Base-Reflexes being already a match for fucking Minato. Which is also why Ei is faster than his father.



sorry wtf did u just try to say in pretty words that SM naruto is faster than Ei? or even close in speed.  ah turrin you can do much much better. nothing in the manga supports your entire post. also note one poster agrees. like not one agrees. thats bad

btw katas is scalable. everything is. hiashi jukken>>>>>>>>>>>hinata and neji. based on his chakra capacity and experience with it. 
why naruto katas wont be better despite being able to gather more SM is something that has confused everyone on this thread. and the other thread. 

you have explained your points though. what i would like is compare jukken to katas in every facet then explain why jukken is scalable and katas isnt


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## Bonly (Apr 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> this annoying *battledome rule* called feats! and by feats he is faster.



Actually if you read the "" there is no rule saying people have to use feats  or things of that nature.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

ok not rule but something most seem to mention
also not much else to base on but whats shown in the manga
and both manga and DB would imply the sandaime is faster therefore he is. 
again not saying he blitzes he wouldnt need 2

note: first time naruto used Sm in battle he only used 1 FRS. 4 clones, 2 odama's and 2 rasengans and he ran out out of sage mode. Clearly his war arc version is several times superior to that. i hope people know that. considering after COFRS and 2 clones. plus he still maintained his SM.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2015)

Raikage has better reflexes, but that's all we can really say. He was exactly very impressive, movement wise.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

yh for sure he got better reflexes but if u going to say he didnt show great speed i wonder how u can then claim jiraiaya is just as fast considering jiriaya got no speed feats to his name 

either this is all nitpicking the most important thing here is for jiraiya to keep his distance or he dies


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## ARGUS (Apr 3, 2015)

Kai said:


> He probably meant A's (4th's) reflexes, which has certainly been hyped without Raiton no Yoroi.


I would need scans for such statements, 
because what makes this even more unlikely is the fact that Ay's reflexes are multiplied solely bcz of his armor, 



Icegaze said:


> true.
> 
> 
> this is true. however doesnt mean jiriaya cant evade the raikage. u dont need to be physically as fast or faster to counter. take neji vs base lee. lee is faster. however neji's perks allow him to win



except the raikage would react the instant he sees jiraiya attempting to evade him 
if jiraiya evades him once, than raikage approoaches him right after and finishes him 
jiraiya has no counters, the instant raikage comes up close, he wont be able to evade him from such a distance, nor could he form a defense or any thing at all which would help him survive 

to evade the raikage jiraiya needs to be more reflexive than him 



> *false Ei reflexes and speed are hyped to be akin to minato. in base by C*. then C says when he puts the cloak on not even sharingan can keep up. Also base Ei blitz the shit out of zetsu. from a sitting position



Yet Ay in his top speed and top form of RNY was shown to be inferior to Minato in reactions and speed, 
and @bold - No, C specificallly said that the raikages nerve transmission was what enabled Ay to have reflexes on par with minato, and they are are solely increased thanks to his RNY,  which utilises raiton chakra 

so take that out annd he is infeiror, much much infeiror and blitzing Zetsu is no great feat, to suggest that he is on par or even comparable to his V1 or V2 forms 

hhere is the viz scan, 






> jiraiya wont evade every attack nor do so consistently but he certainly can evade. he isnt helpless



infront of nukite, and in a CQC confrontation he is definitely helpless 




> this is true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why




> true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ARGUS (Apr 3, 2015)

and @Duhul, instead of being a bitch ass and just sending me your puny negs 
i suggest you try to counter my post rather than just hiding behind and saying that its laughable, 
but after reading your posts, any thing that you post  or try to counter would be where it belongs 
the trash bin


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2015)

> to evade the raikage jiraiya needs to be more reflexive than him



Not really. SM Naruto did defeat him because of the sensing factor. U_U
I think it fanny that you said that though, when you contradict yourself when it comes to Hashirama for example. 



> except the raikage would react the instant he sees jiraiya attempting to evade him
> if jiraiya evades him once, than raikage approoaches him right after and finishes him
> jiraiya has no counters, the instant raikage comes up close, he wont be able to evade him from such a distance, nor could he form a defense or any thing at all which would help him survive



Or he can simply use a clone, or Shima/Fukasaku on his shoulders help as well.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yh for sure he got better reflexes but if u going to say he didnt show great speed i wonder how u can then claim jiraiaya is just as fast considering jiriaya got no speed feats to his name
> 
> either this is all nitpicking the most important thing here is for jiraiya to keep his distance or he dies



Here.

 I know Argus already presented this, but I agree, it's obvious his speed was boosted by Raiton. Despite Shi's statement in regards to reflexes, it's clear Kishi was referring to speed or else the statement about the Sharingan being unable to track Ei's movements would not be made.

 And Raikage's Chakra Armor is made up of Raiton and lightning is pretty damn fast, so Raiton Armor represents Ei being a speedster.

 @Hussain

 SM Jiraiya overall is much slower than War Arc SM Naruto and therefore, his natural reflexes are inferior, and his Sage sensing pales in comparison to Naruto's considering SM Jiraiya is an imperfect sage while War Arc SM Naruto's Sage Mode is comparable to Hashirama's.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Somebody with true precognition (like a Sage) will always respond to a stimulus before a person with quick reflexes (like v2 A) will. That's just common sense.
> 
> If SM Naruto was to race v2 A, Naruto would begin running at the exact moment that the gun goes off (because he knows exactly when that will happen), while A would have to wait until he heard the sound of the shot. Of course, since v2 A has incredible reflexes he could respond to Naruto taking off next to him nearly instantly and basically be at no disadvantage, but _technically_ Naruto did start first.
> 
> I can also compare it to football. The offensive line knows the snap count, meaning that they know exactly when the ball will be snapped before the Center actually hikes it. That way, the rest of the line will be in position to block right as the ball is hiked, and opposing defenders don't get to run freely at the Quaterback _even if those defenders have better reflexes than the O-line._


And it's actually better than that in many instances as they can sense the enemies chakra, so they would know what's happening even sooner. 

I mean the best RNY feat is Ei being able to evade Amaterasu at the last second thanks to it, but Kabuto pulls off the same thing even easier (doesn't need to narrowly evade with Shunshin), thanks to SM sensing. That's because not only the precognitive aspect, but because Kabuto could sense the build up long before the Jutsu was executed. Same way Nagato was able to warn B far enough in advance, that B had the time to throw a sword at Itachi, travel a large distance in the air, be deflected, all well before Amaterasu went off.

With physical actions that don't require chakra it will be a little bit closer than that, but SM senses still edges it for the reasons described, though certainly it's extremely close in the case of Ei, less so in the case of Sandaime. Though in all cases we are probably talking about a largely inconsequential difference unless up against some of the fastest Jutsu or characters in the verse, as otherwise both will still be evading the attack.


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> @Hussain
> 
> SM Jiraiya overall is much slower than War Arc SM Naruto and therefore, his natural reflexes are inferior, and his Sage sensing pales in comparison to Naruto's considering SM Jiraiya is an imperfect sage while War Arc SM Naruto's Sage Mode is comparable to Hashirama's.



How is he "much slower"????

Jiraiya does not only have the sensing ability though, but the sensing barrier as well. 

Also, it is not like if Hashirama has any sensing feats whatsoever.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> I
> and @bold - No, C specificallly said that the raikages nerve transmission was what enabled Ay to have reflexes on par with minato, and they are are solely increased thanks to his RNY,  which utilises raiton chakra
> 
> so take that out annd he is infeiror, much much infeiror and blitzing Zetsu is no great feat, to suggest that he is on par or even comparable to his V1 or V2 forms
> ...


Uhh...no. I can tell you w/o a shadow of a doubt that you are wrong on that. Not only would my translation of the line reflect that it is Base-Ei's reflexes that match the Yellow-Flash's, but here several other translators that say just that:

Gottheim
" C
雷影様の体内の神経伝達…反射のスピードは黄色い閃光に劣らない
Raikage-sama's nerve impulse transmission and reflexes fall nothing short of those of the Yellow Flash in speed.
こいつらよくついてきてるほうだ　
These guys are doing a pretty good job of keeping up.
しかし反射を活性化するための雷遁チャクラをまとった以上　写輪眼でも追いつけない
But once he puts on his reflex-enhancing Raiton chakra [shroud] even the Sharingan can't follow.[tn: C doesn't say "shroud", it's a personal addition.]
それにまだ…
And that's not the end of it...
It's actually pretty clear. Base Raikage is as fast as Minato (presumably Minato was a notorious speedster, even without that Hiraishin thing), but the Raiton Shroud gives him disgustingly superhuman speed to top even that.

ShounenSuki, "I won't. I agree with Gottheim's interpretation."

Even the Viz translations say it that way, and I have absolutely no clue where you getting your interpretation from when reading that.

So that's like 3 Translators (Gottheim, Shounensuki, and Myself] vs your very weird interpretation of the Viz. And fuck I know there have been even more translators than that which have said such in the past, I just can't quote them off hand.



> to evade the raikage jiraiya needs to be more reflexive than him


No someone doesn't, as reflex-speed is not the same as movement speed. Ei's reaction-time is much faster than his movement speed. That's also why Minato can actually react to Ei's Max-Speed in the first place, despite Ei's reflex speed being well above Minato's in Raiton-Chakra-Mode.

Edit: By the Way if people want to learn a little bit more about how to interpret the manga properly and want Quality translations, they can check my blog, which has a huge back log of the best translations I could compile on hot button issues, usually with multiple translations and at times translators outright explaining how the text should be interpreted. It's my goto when I don't have time to read the Raw myself:
Pulls gargantuan amounts of sand from below upward to crush Deidara


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## FlamingRain (Apr 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yh of course. it doesnt mean that no one implied it.



ARGUS implied it.



> Why not? raikage again need not alter his momentum or even try to dodge. he muscles through jiraiya attack and its in that instance he can hit jiriaya. which is what Ei did. he took advantage of his durability over tryign to use speed.



_Jiraiya_ is the one trying to dodge; the post I had just quoted was talking about Sage Jiraiya's ability to _avoid_ Raikage. If Raikage's initial attack is avoided he would have to readjust himself in order to catch Jiraiya, so the first time that goes down he probably wouldn't get him, and Jiraiya will already know his own strikes don't do anything to him after the first shot in that case.

Ay didn't just _run over_ Sasuke, he stopped and then grabbed him.



> ah smells of excuse. raikage basic fighting style is to tank attacks and counter attack. its in the description of nikute. he uses his durable body to tank shit then strike.



Can you post the description of Nukite?



ARGUS said:


> Yet Ay in his top speed and top form of RNY was shown to be inferior to Minato in reactions and speed,



That was never shown.

Minato's teleportation eclipses Ay's speed simply because teleportation forgoes direct movement altogether, but Minato's _reflexes_ were never shown to be superior to Ay's. Minato being able to react to V2 Ay simply means that Ay does not get _so_ fast in V2 that his base mode would be unable to react.



> No, C specificallly said that the raikages nerve transmission was what enabled Ay to have reflexes on par with minato, and they are are solely increased thanks to his RNY,  which utilises raiton chakra



It is almost hilarious how you managed to read that so far out of context. That had to be intentional.

_"Raikage's nerve transmission *and* reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's Yellow Flash."_

_"*But* Raikage has manipulated Raiton Chakra to augment his reflexes!"_

We also have him switch from _"Impressive that these folk are keeping up as well as they are,"_ in the second sentence to _"Not even the Sharingan will be able to keep up with him,"_ in the fourth.

Now be honest and ask yourself: how much sense does it make for C to say that not even the Sharingan would be able to keep up with _the same mode he was impressed it was keeping up with_?

He _couldn't_ have been talking about the same mode; he began talking about the Raiton Chakra Mode in the third sentence and the understood subject of the first is Ay's base mode.

Finally, Zetsu saw the Itachi and Sasuke fight- so for him to be surprised at Ay's speed is actually pretty impressive, regardless of whether or not you would consider him to be fodder.


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## Kai (Apr 4, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> I would need scans for such statements,
> because what makes this even more unlikely is the fact that Ay's reflexes are multiplied solely bcz of his armor,


They are. A's reflexes in base are already on par with Minato's; with the Raiton no Yoroi, his reflexes exceed Minato's.



			
				Shounensuki said:
			
		

> 「雷影様の体内の神経伝達…反射のスピードは黄色い閃光に劣らない…こいつらよくついてきてい る方だ」
> "The Raikage-sama's neurotransmissions... The speed of his reflexes don't fall behind to [those of] the Yellow Flash... Those guys have been keeping up pretty well."
> 
> 「しかし反射を活性化するための雷遁チャクラをまとった以上写輪眼でも追いつけない」
> "However, after he put on the raiton chakra in order to activate his reflexes, not even the Sharingan can catch up with him."





			
				Shounensuki said:
			
		

> The way I read this, C is comparing the 'base' Raikage with the Yellow Flash. In other words, the Raikage without his Raiton Armour has reflexes about as fast as Minato had. The Raiton Armour 'activates' the Raikage's reflexes, which is Naruto terminology for making them work better and faster. This would mean that the Raikage with his Raiton Armour has faster reflexes than Minato had. My interpretation is also supported by the fact that the Raikage managed to evade Amaterasu, something I doubt Minato could do — or anyone else for that matter.



I personally asked Shounensuki about this matter years ago, and he's one of the most respected translators within and beyond NF.


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## Trojan (Apr 4, 2015)

Minato reacted to V2 A, and counterattacked him, and A couldn't do anything tho. C is full of it.


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## Icegaze (Apr 4, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> ARGUS implied it.



ok i agree with his end result but not the premise that jiriaya is entirely helpless. 



> _Jiraiya_ is the one trying to dodge; the post I had just quoted was talking about Sage Jiraiya's ability to _avoid_ Raikage. If Raikage's initial attack is avoided he would have to readjust himself in order to catch Jiraiya, so the first time that goes down he probably wouldn't get him, and Jiraiya will already know his own strikes don't do anything to him after the first shot in that case.



actually i disagree. in the first instance jiraiya will dodge and attack the raikage who will ignore his attack and counter. notice against naruto the raikage didnt even remotely try to move out of the way. unlike naruto who knew the raikage cant be damaged by his attack jiriaya wont know. 
and then we have the sasuke vs Ei situation, jiriaya dies once put in that situation 



> Ay didn't just _run over_ Sasuke, he stopped and then grabbed him.



using his durable body to counter




> Can you post the description of Nukite?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Hell Stab

One's hand pierces through heaven and earth, Hell Stab's lighting leaves nothing behind.

Sandaime Raikage's extreme specialty is Raiton Nin/Taijutsu. A raiton lunging attack that is similar to Kakashi's Rarikiri, which pierces through defenses. As the number of fingers decrease the jutsu evolves. As the fingers decrease each time, the surface area of the attack becomes smaller, but the piercing power of the Jutsu concentrates. Sandaime's jutsu calls out the "strongest spear", though on occasion it can be used for vertical cuts and than it becomes a meitou (the title for legendary swords), though no matter the style it maintains a sharpness that one can be proud of.

Similar to Rarikiri when it's time to attack the focus is to create a chink in the opponents armor, while using ones tough body to repel the enemies attack.






> That was never shown


.

are you sure 



> Minato's teleportation eclipses Ay's speed simply because teleportation forgoes direct movement altogether, but Minato's _reflexes_ were never shown to be superior to Ay's. Minato being able to react to V2 Ay simply means that Ay does not get _so_ fast in V2 that his base mode would be unable to react.



un true but if u think so fine. minato reactions are hyped to no end as well as his speed. in fact kishi made him the ultimate speed benchmark



> It is almost hilarious how you managed to read that so far out of context. That had to be intentional.
> 
> _"Raikage's nerve transmission *and* reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's Yellow Flash."_
> 
> ...



ok whats your point in relation to this match?



> Now be honest and ask yourself: how much sense does it make for C to say that not even the Sharingan would be able to keep up with _the same mode he was impressed it was keeping up with_?



hence why he is impressed because they shouldnt be able to. again never made it sound like jiriaya was helpless 



> He _couldn't_ have been talking about the same mode; he began talking about the Raiton Chakra Mode in the third sentence and the understood subject of the first is Ay's base mode.
> 
> Finally, Zetsu saw the Itachi and Sasuke fight- so for him to be surprised at Ay's speed is actually pretty impressive, regardless of whether or not you would consider him to be fodder.



i dont consider zetsu fodder. and i did say EI base speed is impressive

@everyone SM clearly doesnt boost jiriaya or naruto speed to the same level and i have some implication of this

KCM naruto already outpaced EI, so why not use KCM to land the rasengan on the 3rd?

naruto used SM because danger sensing allows for better evasion. that has nothing to do with speed. if u can all go back to the panel. naruto never mentioned speed being what would allow him to evade the 3rd attack but more precise sensing. SM naruto was in no way faster than the 3rd. the same way sasuke wasnt faster than EI yet still countered. 

So jiriaya dont need to be faster to evade, he got sensing however. sandaime doesnt need to be faster to strike he got tanking. which enables quicker counter attacks


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Somebody with true precognition (like a Sage) will always respond to a stimulus before a person with quick reflexes (like v2 A) will. That's just common sense.
> 
> If SM Naruto was to race v2 A, Naruto would begin running at the exact moment that the gun goes off (because he knows exactly when that will happen), while A would have to wait until he heard the sound of the shot. Of course, since v2 A has incredible reflexes he could respond to Naruto taking off next to him nearly instantly and basically be at no disadvantage, but _technically_ Naruto did start first.
> 
> I can also compare it to football. The offensive line knows the snap count, meaning that they know exactly when the ball will be snapped before the Center actually hikes it. That way, the rest of the line will be in position to block right as the ball is hiked, and opposing defenders don't get to run freely at the Quaterback _even if those defenders have better reflexes than the O-line._



Rock Lee vs Sasuke. Perceiving and respoding are two different things. 
A sage may perceive things prior to someone with just insane reactions, but actually reacting to that instance requires some kind of a movement, which will require actual reaction speed, your brain sending commands to your body parts etc. 
In that case, yes and no to what you'r saying.


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## Icegaze (Apr 4, 2015)

I would also like to point about that turrin comparison between kabuto evading susanoo arrow and Ei evading amaterasu is wrong 

1) amaterasu is faster
2) kabuto only dodged while Ei dodged and got behind 
3) RCM implies being able to chase after naruto KCM mode
4) SM perfected or not has never been implied to give anyone that level of speed. 

But yes the lee vs neji example is a perfect one. sadly in this case jiriaiya is neji without the ability to harm lee the raikage in this case. 

jiriaya movement speed isnt superior however his ability to danger sense would allow for counter attack and evasion
the former serves no purpose and the latter is a delay tactic till he runs away and preps jutsu. both of which are difficult when the ultimate tank is running your way


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## Rocky (Apr 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Rock Lee vs Sasuke. Perceiving and respoding are two different things.
> A sage may perceive things prior to someone with just insane reactions, but actually reacting to that instance requires some kind of a movement, which will require actual reaction speed, your brain sending commands to your body parts etc.
> In that case, yes and no to what you'r saying.



As long as the sensor is physically capable of responding to the action prior to it occurring (and all ninja should be), he will _act_ before anyone regardless of their reflexes, not just perceive the threat. 

Sharingan precognition is a bit different than actual foresight. The Sharingan user is still _re_acting, but one would only have to begin their action for the dojutsu to recognize what they were about to do.

Basically, if Gai were to throw a punch, whether or not a Sharingan user could guard would be determined by how quickly Gai could complete that punch, since what the Sharingan is reading is Gai beginning the process of punching.

With a Sage, they'd "read" that Gai was about to throw a punch before Gai began moving at all, meaning that they'd just _put up a guard before he did so_. That way, the actuall speed of the attack in question (Gai's punching speed here) is rendered a non-factor.


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## Icegaze (Apr 4, 2015)

@rocky any scans showing that's how frog senseing works ?
I think it allows for more precise dodging because of the natural energy around the user 
Which means once an attack breaches said aura around them 
This allows them to precisely dodge 

How u describe it makes it sound like they can predict what the enemy does before the enemy has done it which is entirely false
Considering what SM kabuto said . About being able to feel changes in the air around him 

The speed of the attack and the speed of the SM user obviously matter . SM naruto cannot dodge amaterasu nor can SM kabuto 
Considering the latter didn't even know it had appeared till it did and he jumped back


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## Rocky (Apr 4, 2015)

I'll look into it more when I have time. I do know that the ability to sense chakra is basically precognition because of what Obito did against Amaterasu.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 4, 2015)

@ Icegaze,

The databook means that Raikage can charge his opponent without having to worry about a counter-attack due to his strong body (that was the thing Kakashi needed the Sharingan for while developing Chidori). It doesn't mean he tanks first and then uses Nukite- we know that's not what he does with it because that's not how he behaved in the war.

Raikage could have just kept going when he used Nukite against Naruto but guess what- because Naruto dodged first he would have been going in _the wrong direction to ever counter him_, he would have had to readjust. Same thing applies here- if the attack is avoided and then Jiraiya hits him Raikage would have to re-situate himself because his momentum would have been carrying him in the wrong direction to hit Jiraiya. The problem is that it only takes one time for Jiraiya to realize his strikes aren't doing anything- so he won't be trying to hit Raikage with his fists or feet again after that, meaning there will be no next attack for Raikage to simply lean into in order to catch Jiraiya.


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## Jad (Apr 4, 2015)

What's the general consensus in this thread so far. Jiraiya wins and if so how, or he loses? Just curious.


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## Thunder (Apr 4, 2015)

Jad said:


> What's the general consensus in this thread so far. Jiraiya wins and if so how, or he loses? Just curious.



Not sure what consensus is, but it seems most arguing for J-man see him getting off Frog Song and winning that way, while most arguing for Sandaime Raikage say he overwhelms J-man with Nukite and speed before Frog Song is complete.

Something along those lines.


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## Kai (Apr 4, 2015)

Jad said:


> What's the general consensus in this thread so far. Jiraiya wins and if so how, or he loses? Just curious.


Jiraiya wins if he gets Frog Song off. He loses if the genjutsu doesn't complete in time.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How is he "much slower"????
> 
> Jiraiya does not only have the sensing ability though, but the sensing barrier as well.
> 
> Also, it is not like if Hashirama has any sensing feats whatsoever.



 Sensing Barrier doesn't enhance sensing capabilities in terms of combat.

 Jiraiya is vastly inferior to any Perfect Sage during the War Arc, so thus, his Sage Sensing would logically be inferior.

 And no, do not mention Hashirama lacking sensing feats when Jiraiya himself lacks sensing feats as well. That's why I'm going by logic because Jiraiya has not shown any sensing feats despite Kishimoto's intentions of Jiraiya having Sage Sensing.


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## Trojan (Apr 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sensing Barrier doesn't enhance sensing capabilities in terms of combat.
> 
> Jiraiya is vastly inferior to any Perfect Sage during the War Arc, so thus, his Sage Sensing would logically be inferior.
> 
> And no, do not mention Hashirama lacking sensing feats when Jiraiya himself lacks sensing feats as well. That's why I'm going by logic because Jiraiya has not shown any sensing feats despite Kishimoto's intentions of Jiraiya having Sage Sensing.



It does. It tells the user every little movement inside of it. And since it's huge, it gives the user an advantage in that regard. 

What did you base that on? 

The barrier is a sensing barrier, and I only mentioned Hashirama because you threw him in there when he has got nothing. 
Of course some people try to use Madara so disparately ignoring that he is a sensor, and there was nothing mentioned about "Hashirama's SM is the only reason why avoid Tobirama, Therefore, Hashirama has that sensing" which I don't see a reason to why I should take that seriously...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> As long as the sensor is physically capable of responding to the action prior to it occurring (and all ninja should be), he will _act_ before anyone regardless of their reflexes, not just perceive the threat.
> 
> Sharingan precognition is a bit different than actual foresight. The Sharingan user is still _re_acting, but one would only have to begin their action for the dojutsu to recognize what they were about to do.
> 
> ...



I doubt sage sensing works like  that. That is basically reading the future which sage sensing certainly wasn't described to do. 

The sage still needs to react to an attack whether they know it is coming or not. And it certainly doesn't give them any kind of omnipotency they way you'r describing it to do. Kabuto was distracted by 4 magatamas when Sasuke hit him with an attack which he priorly dodged with relative ease. If Kabuto was capable of reading the future like you are insinuating, then he'd know the arrow would target its tail and he'd move it the exact moment the arrow was about to make contact.


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## Icegaze (Apr 4, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> @ Icegaze,
> 
> The databook means that Raikage can charge his opponent without having to worry about a counter-attack due to his strong body (that was the thing Kakashi needed the Sharingan for while developing Chidori). It doesn't mean he tanks first and then uses Nukite- we know that's not what he does with it because that's not how he behaved in the war.
> 
> Raikage could have just kept going when he used Nukite against Naruto but guess what- because Naruto dodged first he would have been going in _the wrong direction to ever counter him_, he would have had to readjust. Same thing applies here- if the attack is avoided and then Jiraiya hits him Raikage would have to re-situate himself because his momentum would have been carrying him in the wrong direction to hit Jiraiya. The problem is that it only takes one time for Jiraiya to realize his strikes aren't doing anything- so he won't be trying to hit Raikage with his fists or feet again after that, meaning there will be no next attack for Raikage to simply lean into in order to catch Jiraiya.



your entire line of thinking conveniently assumes jiriaya can dodge the way naruto did or will dodge the way naruto did 
Vs how sasuke did against Ei. Where the sandaime wont have to readjust as jiriaya would be right in front of him

what the DB says is simple. the sandaime wont be tryign to avoid any attacks because he can tank them. he will move forward. and jiraiya could counter and depending on how he counters or what his counter is. jiriaya could die casually

what i would always find odd is people assuming an imperfect sage can do what a perfect sage did. That would be no different from me saying sandaime and his son got the same level of speed and reactions. cuz so far what am hearing is sage mode gives u this or that therefore jiriaya can do it. 
which isnt necessarily true. i have yet to see a technique in this manga which isnt scalable and has some base level with all users. 

even kamui!!! kakashi's is faster than obito's. All jutsu are scalable. from bijuudama to common shiruken throwing skills

@Thunder i think the current consensus  is that the raikage wins. not the other way round


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## Thunder (Apr 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Thunder i think the current consensus  is that the raikage wins. not the other way round



I never said what the consensus is either way, Icegaze. In fact, I said I wasn't sure. I just briefly gave reasons for why posters are supporting their chosen character. 

I do see Sage Jiraiya coming out on top here in the end, though, if you're wondering. My response here is the same as the other thread: Sage Jiraiya wins with Frog Song. Won't be easy however.


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## Icegaze (Apr 4, 2015)

@Thunder i know your position on the issue no doubt. 
sorry if my reply sounded harsh for some reason 

did you understand my statement about scaling though? why do most think jiriaya can pull of dodges the way naruto did?

i got no doubt he can evade by moving back and using delay tactics. my only issue with that. is why would he start that way. 

Anywayz 7 pages worth of thread. my most successful thread.


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## Thunder (Apr 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Thunder i know your position on the issue no doubt.
> sorry if my reply sounded harsh for some reason
> 
> did you understand my statement about scaling though? why do most think jiriaya can pull of dodges the way naruto did?
> ...



It didn't sound harsh at all. 

Basically your argument is Jiraiya's sensing isn't on par with Naruto's because Jiraiya is an imperfect sage while Naruto is a perfect sage, correct? Sounds logical to me. Only problem I have with this line of thinking is, there's no way for us to quantify the difference between them (if one exists). Even if Jiraiya's sensing is _slightly_ worse Naruto's it still may be adequate enough to dodge Sandaime Raikage's attacks. Jiraiya is already pretty fast in Sage Mode as I've shown you. The fact Jiraiya can also sense just solidifies the position that Jiraiya can dodge successfully here.

And no, I don't think Jiraiya _immediately_ goes crazy with all these stalling tactics either. But I also don't think Jiraiya will stand there and slug it out with a physical beast who wears Raiton chakra like armor.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> It does. It tells the user every little movement inside of it. And since it's huge, it gives the user an advantage in that regard.


 
I never denied that.



> What did you base that on?



 Base what on? Tobirama outright compared Naruto's Sage Mode to Hashirama's. 



> The barrier is a sensing barrier, and I only mentioned Hashirama because you threw him in there when he has got nothing.



 Hashirama's perception and reflexes are still enhanced by Senjutsu and there's no reason for it not to be. After all, Hashirama is able to clash with Alive Madara who can speed blitz SM Naruto and Hashirama's Senjutsu places his reflexes far above that.

 The barrier is a sensing barrier, but that in no way boosts Jiraiya's perceptive capabilities in combat making it useless besides tracking opponents.



> Of course some people try to use Madara so disparately ignoring that he is a sensor, and there was nothing mentioned about "Hashirama's SM is the only reason why avoid Tobirama, Therefore, Hashirama has that sensing" which I don't see a reason to why I should take that seriously...



 I never used that evidence.

 Sage Sensing is a result of being able to manipulate Natural Energy to enhance one's reflexes and perceptive capabilities. As Jiraiya's pales in comparison to Naruto's, it's illogical to grant SM Jiraiya with SM Naruto Reaction feats considering SM Jiraiya is an Imperfect Sage while Naruto's a Sage who's Sage Mode is on par with one of the Strongest Shinobi's Senjutsu out there.

 There's no reason to somehow grant Jiraiya SM Naruto reaction feats because it makes no sense.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> your entire line of thinking conveniently assumes jiriaya can dodge the way naruto did or will dodge the way naruto did
> Vs how sasuke did against Ei. Where the sandaime wont have to readjust as jiriaya would be right in front of him



_And?_

Take a look at what I said when this started:



FlamingRain said:


> It *could*. I don't know if it *most likely would*, though, unless Raikage already knew to go ahead and lean into the attack in order to catch Jiraiya.



I haven't been talking in absolute certainties here. So if you've got a problem with that please explain just why it would be _more_ likely for Jiraiya to counter the way Sasuke did than the way Naruto did.

Just going by the _couple_ _instances_ we have of Jiraiya actually engaging in Taijutsu he seems to prefer kicking techniques- ducking under Raikage's attack isn't going to leave him much space for that (Sasuke managed to land that Chidori because he was already thrusting, and he's smaller than Jiraiya is), but evading to the side would.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'll look into it more when I have time. I do know that the ability to sense chakra is basically precognition because of what Obito did against Amaterasu.


It's not quite precognition, but rather sensing at the root. The moment someone moves to attack or molds chakra than the SM senses pick it up. It acts like precog, because they are detecting it so early. On the other hand the Raikage's have to react to the actual attacks. Sandaime or Ei don't know that Sasuke is going to unleash Amaterasu until the eye bleeds; on the other hand Nagato knows by the mere pressure the attack execudes, I.E. the gathering of chakra to the eyes. SM users basically know of the attack well before it's released, while RNY have to react to the attack itself. That's the difference.


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## ARGUS (Apr 4, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> So why did that not happen with Sasuke vs. Haku, Sakura vs. Ino, Sakura and Chiyo vs. Sasori, Shikamaru vs. Hidan, Sasuke vs. Deidara,


in almost all these instances  the fighters reactions are relatively on par with each other 
except for SAsuke and Deidara, 
the latter evaded him once, but on their other brawls, he was getting smacked the instant sasuke got close to him 




> Sasuke vs. Raikage, etc?


Raikage didnt even use shunshin in that incident, 
all he attempted to use was an elbow attack, 



> The fact of the matter is that ninja are more than capable of keeping up with opponents faster and more reflexive than they are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2015)

lol ignoring three translators what a troll.


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## Kai (Apr 4, 2015)

It's true, Argus. Sorry  

Now, Minato is the fastest shinobi of his era and past, and that doesn't contradict his feats shown in the manga.


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## ARGUS (Apr 4, 2015)

Turrin said:


> lol ignoring three translators what a troll.


Lol Doesn't read my post and doesn't have the tendency to think how his translations are reflected by the events in the manga 
Nor does he counter it, but instead resorts to calling me a troll in hopes of sounding all high and mighty 

Nice try though, 



Kai said:


> It's true, Argus. Sorry
> 
> Now, Minato is the fastest shinobi of his era and past, and that doesn't contradict his feats shown in the manga.



I never said that those translation could be wrong 
Only that they hold little credibility since that statement is probably retconned 
New feats > old feats


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## Euraj (Apr 5, 2015)

Seems more like you don't understand how reflexes and reactions work. It doesn't matter if A's reactions are faster than his, Minato still was attacked from a large distance away and avoided it with a jutsu that required him to do essentially nothing more than think "dodge." That encounter may have gone differently if Minato tried to side-step his punch and then counter-attack.


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Naruto is better at the Sage Arts than Jiraiya. I acknowledge that.
> 
> What I'm saying is, whether or not Naruto is superior to Jiraiya in those fields is irrelevant. There's going to some disparity between something that's perfect and something that's imperfect for sure, but not necessarily in _every little facet_ and the gaps don't have to be _massive_. In my opinion, reaching Sage Naruto's _exact_ level of sensing, speed, and reactions isn't necessary to fight with Sandaime Raikage.



ok agree with this so far. 



> And when you take line-of-slight blockers into account Sandaime Raikage's speed becomes more manageable for Jiraiya.



impeccable. See thats the type of stuff i want to hear. not making it sound like jiriaya can out right pull naruto dodge which still landed him on his ass. somethign that makes it very easy if not for his specific counter to be slapped before he gets up 



> At start battle Sandaime Raikage's physique would tip Jiraiya off that's he's strong at the very least. And don't forget Jiraya's got two elder toads sitting on his shoulders. They can give Jiraiya advice and cue him in on things Jiraiya may miss since they have the opportunity to observe attentively while Jiraiya fights. We saw this when Jiraiya fought Pain. It was Pa who figured out Pain has shared vision. And Pa suggested Jiraiya should retreat since Taijutsu and Ninjutsu didn't work.



but to tip jiriaya off they would need to have gathered intel in direct combat. again its only in that instance that i think sandaime can kill jiriaya 



> Between the three of them? They'll figure the nature of Nukite pretty quickly.



true the mechanics of the jutsu is fairly simple 


@Flamming rain, maybe because naruto could pull that dodge thanks to the fact that he was a *PERFECT!* sage somethign jiriaya isnt. also note naruto only pulled said counter based on the info he got. why would jiriaiya attempt dodging at the last second. so he can do what? a rasengan at the raikage body? also note naruto landed on his ass. if not for that specific counter its entirely possible that before he got up he would have been murdered

This is entirely my fan fic but this is what i see happening 

JIriaya starts with kenbo shibari..the raikage tanks gets behind him and goes for a 4 finger nikute. 
Pa throws a smoke bomb jiriaya avoids the attack and comes with a counter punch which is blocked. he eats an elbow the chin and is sent flying 
he decides to use goemon which is run through by the raikage and its by this point they note their ninjutsu nor taijutsu wont work. 
the raikage gets a shot in but its not enough to kill jiriaya. 

The gama trio are summoned to buy time. the raikage dispatches them. Coming for jiriaya he is trapped in the gourd prison. 

So its either that or the shot the sandaime had at the start kills him. cant see it goign in any other way


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## ARGUS (Apr 5, 2015)

Euraj said:


> Seems more like you don't understand how reflexes and reactions work. It doesn't matter if A's reactions are faster than his, Minato still was attacked from a large distance away and avoided it with a jutsu that required him to do essentially nothing more than think "dodge." That encounter may have gone differently if Minato tried to side-step his punch and then counter-attack.



Ugh No 
The faster you react. Then the faster you would strike 
I have already explained this case but I'll do it again 
Minato tossed a kunai, teleported at a nearby location to evade Ay's top speed executed from a relatively short distance (don't see where you jumped to the conclusion that the distance was large)

Teleported back at his tossed kunai and used it to attack Ay all before he could even finish his top speed blitz or do anything at all as he required Killer bees help to prevent him 

If that doesn't prove minatos striking speed and reactions to be above Ay's then god knows what does and that was V2 Ay mind you, 
Then there's the fact that Ay himself admitted inferiority to minato where speed and reactions were the main criteria, 
So Ay's statement >>> Cs statement and yours,  New feats > Old feats 
Yet people now have the nerve to say that base raikages reactions are on par with minato based On nothing but Cs statement

Your premise regarding minatos side step is good and all but it falls flat when we consider the fact that the persons reactions stem from the brain and are different from their physical abilities, (nagatos and EMS sasukes reactions are great but their bodies are clearly not fast enough compared to most others) 
So using FTG as an excuse to prevent this case isn't cutting it 
Because one still needs to have enough reflexes and reactions to be able to execute the jutsu on time otherwise having it is moot if you can't react to an attack as shown when FTG users were fared off against Juubi Jins


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

Excellent points argus
Yes to me upon looking again its clear the shroud gives a reflex and speed boost

but like thunder said cant jiriaya use things like dust cloud and what not to make the sandaime speed less relevant 

since jiriaya can fight in the cloud but the sandaime cant


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Lol Doesn't read my post and doesn't have the tendency to think how his translations are reflected by the events in the manga
> Nor does he counter it, but instead resorts to calling me a troll in hopes of sounding all high and mighty
> 
> Nice try though,


There's nothing to discuss when your arguing against facts.


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## ARGUS (Apr 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> There's nothing to discuss when your arguing against facts.


Ignoring facts? are you seriously the one trying to tell me this? 
the events in the manga hold far more credibility than your interpretation of Cs statement,
especially when Ay himself has admitteed inferiority to minato, where speed and reactions were pretty much the main criteria, 

theres nothing to discuss here, if all youre going to do is call me out, or call me a troll when you have done literally nothing to prove such thing 



Icegaze said:


> Excellent points argus
> Yes to me upon looking again its clear the shroud gives a reflex and speed boost


Definitely, and thanks man, 



> but like thunder said cant jiriaya use things like dust cloud and what not to make the sandaime speed less relevant
> 
> since jiriaya can fight in the cloud but the sandaime cant



Yeah sure he can do that, but the dust cloud doesnt just last forever, 
it comes off, and jiraiya gets tagged no matter how you  look at it, 
so nukite is bound to land and one shot jiraiya


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Ignoring facts? are you seriously the one trying to tell me this?
> the events in the manga hold far more credibility than your interpretation of Cs statement,
> especially when Ay himself has admitteed inferiority to minato, where speed and reactions were pretty much the main criteria,
> 
> theres nothing to discuss here, if all youre going to do is call me out, or call me a troll when you have done literally nothing to prove such thing


What I'm citing is a fact. It's a fact that C says Ei's reflexes match Yondaime's, even w/o RNY. 

You on the other hand are choosing to outright ignore this fact, because it doesn't fit with your argument. 

Inferiority in speed does not mean inferiority in reflexes. You are point blank period, wrong.


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

@Turrin so why did Ei with his cloak still state minato was faster than him. which would also indicate better reactions. 
Both statements were made so neither of u are wrong however u are clearly digressing into a topic and are in some strong denial 

@Argus 
Yh the dust cloud would lift but by then jiriaya could have set up toad gourd prison which is all he needs to do to win the match. if he traps the sandaime. the sandaime cant get out so he auto looses


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Turrin so why did Ei with his cloak still state minato was faster than him. which would also indicate better reactions.


Because speed isn't all about reflexes, especially when Minato can bend space & time


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## Kai (Apr 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> I never said that those translation could be wrong
> Only that they hold little credibility since that statement is probably retconned
> New feats > old feats


Minato has greater speed than A and that was never challenged. His feats reflect his greater speed. A has greater reflexes than Minato and this is outright stated; since Lee vs. Sasuke at the beginning of the manga, we've known reflexes and speed are interrelated but two different capacities.


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

@turrin true. Speed isn’t all about reflexes however those with greater speed generally have better reflexes. Generally not always though. Frog katas has been the only exception of a slower opponent having better reflexes than a faster one


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## Bonly (Apr 5, 2015)

Jad said:


> What's the general consensus in this thread so far. Jiraiya wins and if so how, or he loses? Just curious.



For fifty bucks the general consensus can be whatever you want it to be 



ARGUS said:


> Yet Minato already showed that his reactions are superior to V2 Ay, let alone base raikage,
> so any translation falls flat  based on *what was showed on the manga*



Well to be fair the manga showed that happening 17+ years in the past which means that if A has gotten better reflexes over said time then the translations could still stand.


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## Euraj (Apr 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Ugh No
> The faster you react. Then the faster you would strike
> I have already explained this case but I'll do it again
> Minato tossed a kunai, teleported at a nearby location to evade Ay's top speed executed from a relatively short distance (don't see where you jumped to the conclusion that the distance was large)


Yeah, go back and read. A wasn't right beside him. Anyhow, the concept that you were supposed to understand is that A conceived an attack and crossed a significant distance and nearly bashed in Minato's nose who in comparison only had to conceive dodging to be taken entirely out of range of the attack instantaneously. Striking speed and reaction speed are not the same thing, and the notion of that is retarded, given that there are abilities that have been specifically stated to increase reactions alone. Or do you think Sage Naruto can attack faster than KCM Naruto? 



> Teleported back at his tossed kunai and used it to attack Ay all before he could even finish his top speed blitz or do anything at all as he required Killer bees help to prevent him


The flaw of your argument is in your description. Tell me, do you think A has an easier time counter-attacking when he's launching an all-out strike or when standing still and jabbing and hooking. Think back to what Minato told Kakashi about Chidori. Sandaime and Yondaime Raikage's fighting styles are completely based on that same kind of attack except for where they don't have enhanced cognition, they have a powerful defense (ie. like Sasuke counter-attacking his all-out strike but the consequence being a wound the size of a fingernail.) 



> If that doesn't prove minatos striking speed and reactions to be above Ay's then god knows what does and that was V2 Ay mind you,
> Then there's the fact that Ay himself admitted inferiority to minato where speed and reactions were the main criteria,
> So Ay's statement >>> Cs statement and yours,  New feats > Old feats
> Yet people now have the nerve to say that base raikages reactions are on par with minato based On nothing but Cs statement


Rather, people's reading comprehension isn't limited to linear reasoning, fallacious generalizations and tossing out contradicting evidence like yourself. Bee responded to Minato taking his back better than A did, but are Bee's attacks faster than A's? If Minato's means of movement are superior to A's, then the difference generated by superior reflexes are mitigated. Also, let's not deliberately fail to take into consideration circumstances behind each occasion. For example, Bee being in a position to put a sword through Minato's gut if he went through his attack, A getting a knee to the spine, but the latter being faster than the former. 

Also, I'd like the page where A stated his comment of Minato being faster than him being only on the basis of reaction efficacy. 



> Your premise regarding minatos side step is good and all but it falls flat when we consider the fact that the persons reactions stem from the brain and are different from their physical abilities, (nagatos and EMS sasukes reactions are great but their bodies are clearly not fast enough compared to most others)
> So using FTG as an excuse to prevent this case isn't cutting it
> Because one still needs to have enough reflexes and reactions to be able to execute the jutsu on time otherwise having it is moot if you can't react to an attack as shown when FTG users were fared off against Juubi Jins


Are you serious? Reactions and precognition aren't the same thing. I think Rock Lee explained that back in Part I. Sasuke has great reactions, but what truly allowed him to dodge A's elbow was not his reactions, but his Sharingan. Precognition enabled by Dojutsu deliver information to the brain in advance of what would be enabled by regular eyesight, as Sasuke grasped when he was fighting Naruto in the VotE. Dojutsu supplement reaction. They don't create them. 

Hiraishin seemingly removed Minato from the threat by virtue of thought alone, rather than having to wait for his limbs to respond to impulses from the brain and actually having the muscular capacity to generate the movements fast enough. Think of it another way as you reach the end of this post. There is one step of you deciding to respond, another step of moving your fingers to your keyboard and another your fingers making contact with the keys and placing the information you had previously conceived. Though according your logic, you'd finish your response at the same time if you could remove entirely the step of having to press the keys.


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

@euraj cloak boosts reactions so no moving full speed doesn't cause tunnel vision like u implied


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Well to be fair the manga showed that happening 17+ years in the past which means that if A has gotten better reflexes over said time then the translations could still stand.


The translation stands regardless, because who has better reflexes is not necessarily who is the fastest.

Movement-Speed, Jutsu-Speed, and Reaction-Speed are all different things in the manga. 

Ei's Reflexes allow him to act faster, but how quickly the action is performed comes down to movement-speed and jutsu-speed. Minato's reflexes are inferior to RNY-Ei's, but Ei's movement-speed and Jutsu-speed was not fast enough for him to hit Minato, before Minato could use Hiraishin to evade. Than Minato used Hiraishin to attack Ei from a blind-spot, and since Ei does not have sensing, he just has quicker reactions he didn't know Minato was attacking him until it was too late.

Or to put it more simply, Ei's and Minato's overall speed are a combination of these three types of speed.

Ei Reaction-Speed >> Minato's, but Minato's Jutsu-Speed is WAY > Ei's, since Minato actual bends space-time.


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

Turrin explanation is good enough for me 
Minato wouldn't need to have superior reactions to RCM Ei to avoid his attack with hirashin 

What does that have to do with the match though ?

Jiriaya can have better reactions but as u just said jiriaya doesn't have any jutsu that would allow him to evade someone physically faster therefore he would get tagged


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## Rocky (Apr 5, 2015)

The 3rd Raikage has not demonstrated overly impressive movement speed like his son has (v2 Shunshin). There's no evidence that the 3rd is so fast that Jiraiya cannot evade his attacks.


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

@rocky agreed but when u evade u counter attack 
In jiriaya case it would leave him vulnerable since his counter would be utterly useless something he won't expect


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> What does that have to do with the match though ?
> 
> Jiriaya can have better reactions but as u just said jiriaya doesn't have any jutsu that would allow him to evade someone physically faster therefore he would get tagged


He does have a Jutsu, it's called Shunshin, and it will be enhanced with Senjutsu to boot. And nothing concrete places Sandaime ahead of SM-Jiriaya in movement-speed.

However even with those facts aside, we've been through this, SM-Jiraiya trolls Sandaime's speed the same way SM-Dat-Clone did. SM senses pick up Sandaime's movements far enough in advance to give Jiraiya and Dat-Clone time to move out of the way.


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

@turrin we have been through this yet u dont listen despite every single person telling u all abilities are scalable 
giving Sm jiriaya feats that even SM naruto didnt pull is simply laughable. so here is me laughing 
SM naruto clone or not is superior to Sm jiriaya in SM because all jutsu in this entire manga are scalable. even throwing kunai some basic ass shit is scalable. why wont Sm be. and if u think the difference isnt huge name one other imperfect technique that even remotely comes close in power to a perfected technique. trust me u wont find any

SM gives a reaction boost not some inhuman speed boost granted by RCM which again boosts speed. the sandaime isnt any slower than his son in V1 and thats more than fast enough to be faster than Sm jiraiya who again has zero statements or feats to suggest he is in the same speed ball park.

KCM naruto called the sandaime fast. that alone puts him in the ballpark of speedstars its not everytime kishi decides to point out a character is especially fast. 

one more time though naruto did not evade sandaime with shunshin. he evaded at the last moment and counter which put naruto on his ass. jiriaya cannot fathom such a counter because he got no knowledge. 

naruto clone can still gather more SM than jiriaya therefore giving him a better boost because the  clone is a better SM user. one principal thing abotu SM is the actual user chakra level. naruto chakra level>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jiraiya chakra level. which would be one of the reasons he can not only gather more but balance better. 

Minato could balance better but due to his lower chakra levels couldnt sustain it. jiriaya got better chakra levels so could sustain it but couldnt balance it. 

Having ma and pa only help jiriaya sustain imperfection, long term imperfection is still imperfect and doesnt compare to perfection.


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## Euraj (Apr 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @euraj cloak boosts reactions so no moving full speed doesn't cause tunnel vision like u implied


Yeah, but boosting reactions doesn't boost eyesight...


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 5, 2015)

Euraj said:


> Yeah, but boosting reactions doesn't boost eyesight...



 True, though Raiton Armor doesn't cause Ei tunnel vision or it would've been implied.

 Actually, Young Ei with Raiton Armor was confident in detecting which Kunai Minato would warp to and react perfectly according to where Minato warps. Minato knew this, so he had to subdue Bee. This would not have been shown had Ei experienced tunnel vision or else Ei wouldn't have been confident in striking down Minato or Minato himself would've been confident in attacking Ei on his own considering he's now aware of Young Bee.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2015)

@Icegaze

I don't know where you've been, but the one poster we both agreed was solid, was in the end agreeing with me. So where your getting that everyone agrees with you, I have absolutely no clue. And I've already explained the facts to you multiple times, so i'm not bothering to discuss the issue anymore, just know that your wrong and I am right.


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## Bonly (Apr 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The translation stands regardless, because who has better reflexes is not necessarily who is the fastest.
> 
> Movement-Speed, Jutsu-Speed, and Reaction-Speed are all different things in the manga.
> 
> ...



I know that but it seems that he disregard it just because of what happened in the manga so by pointing it out he might change his mind on it.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 5, 2015)

I could see jiraiya pulling this off with frog song but only if he plays completely on the defensive with tools like dust cloud, smoke bombs, shadow clones and maybe hiding in shadows. If jiraiya ever tries to fight raikage for more than a quick clash he would be ran over though. Not sure if he'd try that with no knowledge but basically if jiraiya operate at his smartest he will take this.


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## Thunder (Apr 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> but to tip jiriaya off they would need to have gathered intel in direct combat. again its only in that instance that i think sandaime can kill jiriaya



Exactly. The way I see it though, Jiraiya survives their initial exchange. Are you saying Jiraiya potentially dies to Sandaime Raikage's first attack?

Because the scenario where Jiraiya stands his ground for an extended period of time (common sense tells us eventually you're going to get hit if you just keep on dodging in close quarters) won't occur very often. Even if this fight were to be simulated a hundred times with the same stipulations. I think after Jiraiya's opening move just bounces off the guy he'll know a prolonged Taijutsu exchange is not the way to victory.

And seeing how Jiraiya _starts_ in Sage Mode here Ninjutsu will probably be used before Taijutsu.


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

@thunder he could. first exchange jiriaya jutsu has no effect. the same cant be said about a possible nikute. it lands and either jiraiya is dead or is injured. so yh he could die that quick 

true ninjutus will be used first but jiraiya ninjutus only block jiriaya own line of sight while the raikage runs through the ninjutus to land his own attack 

@Turrin self deceit is the worst thign that could happen to you 

i guess jutsu arent scalable. wanting jiraiya to be as strong as naruto is all nice and dandy sadly author disagrees by making all jutsu scalable. try alot harder and alot less cockiness, u really shouldnt be.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 6, 2015)

I do not think sandaime is running through Jiraiya's sage enhanced ninjutsu, i mean Temari pushed him back with wind style. He did not felt it but it pushed him back. Frog katas will surely push him back and after Jiraiya Sees it has no effect he will resume to genjutsu


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

@duhul sandaime was in base and in auto defense he wasnt attacking them at all 
frog katas pushing him back is fairly baseless. being physically stronger than ur opponent means their attacks would have less effect. u punching mike tyson wont make him stagger in the slightest. same thing here. 

why would a bijuu wrestler and FRS tanker move even a little bit when hit by jiriaiya strength that even human path could catch while not looking


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## Duhul10 (Apr 6, 2015)

Yes, but at the same time when human was hit , he got thrown several meters, blinded and knocked out until the fat one absorbed goemon
And i am not so sure, that without knowledge sandaime will start with the shroud, i mean he did not do it against an army and he will do it against a single opponent ? Without knowledge ?
I am not so positive about the hype of sandaime's shroud, because a simple rasengan got through his hand shroud


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Yes, but at the same time when human was hit , he got thrown several meters, blinded and knocked out until the fat one absorbed goemon
> And i am not so sure, that without knowledge sandaime will start with the shroud, i mean he did not do it against an army and he will do it against a single opponent ? Without knowledge ?
> I am not so positive about the hype of sandaime's shroud, because a simple rasengan got through his hand shroud



what army? who said he didnt use his shroud against 10000 shinobi?
why wont he 

so far both raikage activate their shroud off the bat. Ei cant help but use it. i dont see why his dad would be any different 

yes jriiaya kicked human and he got sent flying. human is a shit stain in strength to the raikage. that was the point i was making 

the rasengan didnt get through his hand shroud and i dont see why u arent positive 

FRS didnt put him down. hachibi couldnt put him down. so trust me so far as defenses go only things like PS and naruto kyuubi avatar and all So6p stuff come out untop everything else isnt remotely as durable


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## Duhul10 (Apr 6, 2015)

I was talking about the alliance, he turned on the shroud only after Naruto appeared
Actually the rasengan got through the shroud and moved His arm ( the moment he lost the battle )


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## Sasukes Will (Apr 6, 2015)

What is this ?

SM Jiraiay wins low-med diff, he is doing the same thing that Naruto did, dodge and Oodama Rasengan in the elbow = Ay kills himself


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## Duhul10 (Apr 6, 2015)

That is possible only with knowledge, we are discussing about the match-up without it, read the OP


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> I was talking about the alliance, he turned on the shroud only after Naruto appeared
> Actually the rasengan got through the shroud and moved His arm ( the moment he lost the battle )



yes he did so why wont he activate the shroud against jiriaya? i dont get u. he would say ah jiriaya is weak sauce therefore no shroud?
he had no knowledge on naruto either and activated his shroud off the bat

scans of this magic rasengan getting through the shroud. that didnt happen. his arm showed no damage at all.


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## Sasukes Will (Apr 6, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> That is possible only with knowledge, we are discussing about the match-up without it, read the OP



Jiraiya would be careful, plus he got his summons to distract the Raikage (Gamayu Endan)


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## Trojan (Apr 6, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> I could see jiraiya pulling this off with frog song but only if he plays completely on the defensive with tools like dust cloud, smoke bombs, shadow clones and maybe hiding in shadows. *If jiraiya ever tries to fight raikage for more than a quick clash he would be ran over though*. Not sure if he'd try that with no knowledge but basically if jiraiya operate at his smartest he will take this.



Not really. Especially with the fact that the Raikage does not have anything but that 1 liner jutsu which is pretty straightforward and acts just like a Chidori. U_U


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

@ sasuke's will none of jiriaya jutsu can harm the raikage if he stood there and took it 
@hussain linear or not or 1 trick pony fact still remains he is faster and physically more dominating. Also he can extend his nikute or use it as a sword, so not just piercing attacks. not so easy to dodge. 

arent kakashi and sasuke able to land their raikiri and chidori thanks to sharingan which boots their reaction? well the cloak boosts the sandaime reaction while ignoring jiriaya attack


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## Sasukes Will (Apr 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @ sasuke's will none of jiriaya jutsu can harm the raikage if he stood there and took it



Thata's why I said Jiraiya would be careful and analyze, he will certainly realized that physical attacks won't harm him. He got Frog Song and will use Gamayu Endan on his @ss. 
Don't see how Raikage could counter Frog Song.


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## AdventureNinja (Apr 6, 2015)

Hmm, I think the 3rd Raikage was stronger than the 4th Raikage. Sage Mode Jiraiya would win against the 4th Raikage in a high-diff match, but he would lose also high-diff against the 4th Raikage. The 4th Raikage fought for 3 days straight against 10,000 ninjas. While Jiraiya is definitely a stamina monster since he had a high amount of chakra enough to use Sage Mode, I do not know if he can go 3 days straight like the 3rd Raikage. The 3rd Raikage is also much faster than even Sage Mode Jiraiya which would be a problem for Jiraiya to land his jutsus on him, but Jiraiya is intelligent and would figure out a way to trick him into getting hit, but Jiraiya would also get hit by the 3rd Raikage's superior speed as well.

High-Diff 3rd Raikage.


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

@sasuke will the 3rd cant counter frog song
however its a jutsu that takes alot of time to prep. this has been mentioned twice as a fairly slow jutsu to use. 

not so easy to pull off. when jiriaya must try a bunch of methods to get away from the raikage while the kage only need poke jiriaya to death


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 6, 2015)

I don't see how Jiraiya would land Frog Song when Sandaime Raikage can easily evade it, which should be easy on an open field.

 After all, he couldn't just use Frog Song on one Path at a time due to shared vision which is similar to just being able to see your target on an open field.


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

@Narutox28 what are you referring 2? against deva?
yh they couldnt pull it off. like i said kishi made the effort to mention twice the jutsu is slow to use. 
they need massive amounts of Senjutsu chakra to begin with then it takes time for them to get in sync


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Not really. Especially with the fact that the Raikage does not have anything but that 1 liner jutsu which is pretty straightforward and acts just like a Chidori. U_U



Are you saying that if jiraiya tried to hit the 3rd with multiple assaults of rasengan/taijutsu he would escape alive? Third raikage has swiped with his nukite(and blew away a bunch of the JSA) and the databook said it can turn into a sword or something like that so it's not just piercing motions he will be dishing out. Jiraiya would be decimated in extended CQC here he can't even threaten the third in that range(no i don't think he can perfectly replicate naruto's feat).


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## Dragonus Nesha (Apr 6, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> I was talking about the alliance, he turned on the shroud only after Naruto appeared


A uses _Raiton Chakura Mōdo_ at least twice before facing Naruto. [1, 2]


Icegaze said:


> he had no knowledge on naruto either and activated his shroud off the bat


Kabuto takes more direct control right before Naruto shows up.


> his arm showed no damage at all.


Second panel seems to show stress on A's arm.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Narutox28 what are you referring 2? against deva?
> yh they couldnt pull it off. like i said kishi made the effort to mention twice the jutsu is slow to use.
> they need massive amounts of Senjutsu chakra to begin with then it takes time for them to get in sync



 I meant against any of the Paths that Jiraiya encountered.

 It's logical. Jiraiya relied on a diversion and needed to blind Preta Path in order to take Animal Path by surprise. This is because Pain had enough speed to outright dodge it, making the technique meaningless.

 Here, in an open field, Sandaime Raikage isn't losing track of SM Jiraiya the same way Pain wasn't until SM Jiraiya retreated, making Jiraiya's situation here the same as it was against Animal, Preta, and Human Path. Since Sandaime Raikage can see his opponent at all times and is much faster than either of those 3 Paths, then there is no possible way SM Jiraiya can evade Sandaime Raikage to set up a diversion needed for Frog Song.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

@Vatu those are cracks from being an ET 
its impossible for any stress to be there when he gets up after FRS which is several dozen times stronger than that 

@NarutoX28 i am begining to really agree with you on this. dodging raikage once isnt impossible but i think people are taking naruto dodge waay to far. dodging an enemy once doesnt remotely mean you can keep doing it

@blackguyinpinksuit Not only can he use nikute as a sword but he can also extend the length of his  1 finger nikute to make it harder to dodge. or swap fingers changing the range and power. despite how 1 dimensional he is, he is very hard to deal with. What do you think about toad gourd prison being able to catch him. 
When jiriaya used it he still got a rod in him. so possible jiriaya could still be killed while using it


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