# Chrono Trigger or Chrono Cross?



## Zaelapolopollo (Aug 22, 2014)

So it seems you either go one way or the other with Chrono Cross - you think it's amazing or you think it's a steaming pile of garbage. Apparently a lot of this has to do with your feelings towards Chrono Trigger. CT fans, who are known to claim CT as the greatest JRPG ever made, look at the sequel with utter contempt. However my good buddy Furious George adores CC and never played CT at all.

I'm thinking of getting both games on PSN and even though Cross is a sequel, it's apparently a very loose sequel and can stand on its own. Or maybe it's even better on its own since CT fans hate it so.

Which game should I play first?


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## Yagami1211 (Aug 22, 2014)

Chrono Trigger all the way.
There are a lot of references to CT in CC.
But thoses references are just references, telling you for exemple "Character X is dead" but CC doesn't tell you why, when and how, just that it happened, period.

Plus most of the team responsible for CT, didn't return for CC ( I'm looking at you, Mr. Akira "Dragon Ball" Toriyama. )
Plus a lot of great gameplay elements were removed, like double or triple techs. There are dozens of thoses in CC, barely 5 in CC.

To put in simply, CT is the better of the two, because of a lot of things mainly because CC is not as well written as CT. 

And the following 5 :

1. The altered battle system
2. Complex storyline/Plot holes
3. Surfeit of recruitable characters
4. Altered magic system
5. Exclusion of playing as anyone recognizeable in Chrono Trigger
6. Exclusion of recognizeable areas from Chrono Trigger

The characters of Chrono Trigger are very much lovable, and none of them have any sort of plot revelance whatsoever in the long run,  and CC ---> Sort of mild spoiler 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Chrono Cross retcons everything that happened in the 1st game as totally useless


.

I guess it's up to you.


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## zenieth (Aug 22, 2014)

They're both good games but also wildly different beasts.

Is CC a good succesor to CT?

As a a game sure.

But not the game that people who came from CT would want.

CC did a lot well, more than what many fans of CT would like to admit.

And like hell CC isn't as well written as CT. CC may take longer to get into its stride and relies a lot on it's branching and alternating playthroughs, but it's story is just as solid if not outright better. If you have the time to play through it.

They're both good games.

They are however nothing alike save general themes.

It's kinda like if Revengeance was mgs 2.

You'd be fucking insane to call it a bad game, but revengeance is totally not what fans of solid would be looking for in a sequel.


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## Axl Low (Aug 22, 2014)

chrono trigger is superior


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## Furious George (Aug 22, 2014)

Both are very good games and penieth and Yagami make very valid points. 

My take though is that you should probably play CC first.....

There is a chance that playing CT first might muck up the experience of CC, but there is *no chance* that playing CC first will muck up the experience of CT.



zenieth said:


> And like hell CC isn't as well written as CT.



CC is not as well-written as CT. 

In an effort to avoid spoilers I'll say that I'll take concise over convoluted (typical early 2000 JRPG storytelling; existential this, kill god that, blah blah blah) any day.

*EDIT:* Just realized you mentioned me in the OP. Dude, I played and beat CT like a year ago.


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## zenieth (Aug 22, 2014)

The hell are you doing here monkey?

Aint you got souls to deal with?


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## Furious George (Aug 22, 2014)

Eh, taking a break.

Bout to play Dragon Age: Origins before Inquisition. 

Also Destiny 3 weeks get hype.


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## scerpers (Aug 22, 2014)

holydragswd


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## Enclave (Aug 22, 2014)

Chrono Trigger is superior, anybody claiming otherwise is wrong and also a terrible human being who should feel bad.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Aug 22, 2014)

Okay so maybe I'm full of shit about FG not playing Trigger. I apologize for my grievous error.


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## Dream Brother (Aug 24, 2014)

I've been wanting to play _Chrono Cross_ for a while. I heard a bit of the soundtrack, and it was great.

_Chrono Trigger_ is a good game. It isn't my favourite RPG, but it's definitely enjoyable.


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## Canute87 (Aug 24, 2014)

Chrono Trigger is superior.

Chrono cross is not a bad game by any means though.

Loved Chrono Trigger to death though...well maybe not do far.


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## Byrd (Aug 26, 2014)

As a overall package CT is better than CC... CC suffers from (although I love how the characters all are and the fact it offers numerous playthroughs... its also a weakness IMO) too many characters.... and the plot takes a long time to truly settled in...

Both of excellent games IMO with CC definitely beating CT in terms of Soundtrack tho... 

Although both are in my Top 10 list....

CC story is beautiful once you really get whats going on..... although its not on part with CT... 

Frog Duel with Magus tho is probably one of the finest moments in RPG history.



> holydragswd



I hated that move... him and that fucking smiling sun


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## Patchouli (Aug 27, 2014)

Have not played CC, but I have gone through CT multiple times.

I don't know which one you should play first, but I do know it'd be a shame if you decided to never play CT. It really is a great game that just gets everything right.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm playing CT right now actually. Just got done escaping after that "trial."  That was the most absurd thing ever. Yet intriguing too with everything I did at the Fair having some relevance. I did not expect that at all.


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## Blue (Aug 27, 2014)

Is this a joke


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## Zaelapolopollo (Aug 27, 2014)

Nope. CC being its own thing is a common enough belief and some would suggest playing it first so it isn't tarnished by playing CT.

The topic iis kind of irrelevant at tthis point though.


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## bbq sauce (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm in the minority I think. Because CT is one of my all time favorite games. Top 5. Maybe Top 3.. but CC is right up there with it.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Aug 31, 2014)

So...Chrono Trigger. Some people I have talked to over the years say it could easily be in the running not only for best SNES JRPG but best JRPG ever. Now do I think either of those things? Well on the former I'm not sure. This is only the second SNES JRPG I've finished (ironically I played neither of them on the SNES). For best JRPG ever though, probably not. It was still very, very good however.

I think part of my lack of being wowed was due to knowing the "core plot" before I even went into the game. I've known all about Lavos the alien manipulator thing since long before I played the game. In addition to that the story was pretty straightforward so there was very little in the way of things that made me sit up and take notice. The one giant exception of course is Magus being Janus. That was a reveal I did not see coming at all and it cast a whole new, far more intriguing light on Magus' character. I noticed that Magus seemed to be at the center of all the best stuff in this game. When I first got really into the game, it was during "Frog's Arc" when we fixed the Masamune and proceeded to storm Fiendlord Keep. I think that was easily the best dungeon and highest point of the game's storytelling. Everything from the flashbacks of Glenn all the way up to the climactic battle with Magus was so exquisitely done.


So yes, Magus was my favorite character. After him? Ehhh....it's kinda hard to say. I never much cared for Lucca. I know a lot of people like her but she was never that interesting to me. Robo had a nice little sidequst but otherwise he didn't do a whole lot in the game. And Ayla...well you couldn't do much with her character anyway. She's got rather limited mental faculties. That leaves Frog, Marle and Crono. Frog was great for his arc like I mentioned before but he seemed to have limited purpose in the story afterward. I'm sure I might like Lucca and Frog more if I used them in my party - maybe they get extra scenes or a lot more dialogue, kinda like in FFVIII where I discovered Quistis had an actual character. you just had to have her in your party so you would get several more scenes with her and Squall that I never knew existed. Oh, CT is a much better game than FFVIII, I'm just trying to explain myself. That leaves Marle and Crono. Crono has no personality but I did like Marle, even if she was the blatantly obvious love interest from the get-go. I think everyone can sympathize with a difficulty in communication causing strain between you and your parent as you're growing up. That being aid, I have no idea why Marle's mother left that note with the Rainbow Shell....

In terms of locations and the like, Fiendlord Keep was the best as I already said. I also liked the Ocean Palace. I think it wa sa very good touch to keep the dungeon music playing instead of putting in the battle theme. It keeps things "in the moment" as it were.

The battle system thankfully was not anywhere near as complicated as I had feared. With enemies moving around I was worried I'd constantly need to be timing my hits and the like. This played a part now and then but a good deal of bosses are huge, stationary things so it was rather irrelevant.

And now onto music! From the onset I was very impressed with the soundtrack.
Gato's Theme - From the first time I heard this, I knew I was in for an awesome game.
Wind Scene AKA 600AD World Map Theme - It was easily the best world map theme for a long, long stretch of the game.
Corridors of Time - This one doesn't need to be explained or discussed. I think every Chrono fan I've come across knows how great it is.
Tyranno Lair - I have a weakness for evil organ themes okay? Even so this theme probably wouldn't be one of my favorites if it wasn't for how it gets more....intense later on. I didn't much care for the actual dungeon itself but the music made it very memorable.
Frog's Theme - Another "dur" track it seems and with good reason. This song was a huge reason his arc and reclaiming the Masamune was so memorable.
Battle With Magus  - Heh, this segment of the game just had all the great music didn't it? Nothing but the best theme for the best character.

I must confess though, I was not wowed by the final boss music...  I liked whatever theme was playing when you fight the first form of Lavos, the one that keeps cycling through previous boss fights. There is a segment of that fight where the music gets very light and soft and sort of dreamy... I really enjoyed that.

In conclusion,  I give Chrono Trigger an A-. Good if simple and light-hearted story with some nice characters here and there and a very fun battle system and excellent music.

Which is why the campfire scene still puzzles me... It's totally out of left field in terms of tone with the rest of the game's story.  The whole meditations on the nameless entity that is possibly making all the Gates appear and whatnot just felt like something out of a different game. Before this, our heroes were just like "time travel smurf yeah!" and the temporal mechanics of this were shaky and contradictory. Then this scene popped up and well...I dunno what to make of it. Maybe Chrono Trigger is like that FF Tactics? They did speculate it was all the dream of a dying creature. It's all the fantasy world dreamed up by some poor cripple or whatever.

Also I forgot to mention this:

The stuff with Marle and the "Grandfather Paradox" is completely ignored after it happens. It was like the beginning of the game was giving you a warning. "Tinkering with the past will have dangerous repercussions!" Then the entire party was like "let's not just tinker with the past and future, let's completely rewrite everything we don't like!" It really shows that Chrono Trigger was written by several different people and then just kinda jammed together.

I guess if what I've heard of Cross is any indication, Kato didn't much care for that and preferred the early-game message of "don't fuck with the past." 

And while her brother was the best, Schala did nothing for me. We just barely spent any time with her yet she's like "my hopes are all on you, Crono and other people I've had no real interaction with!" I guess they did save the one dude from the Mountain of Woe so that showed we are awesome and all but...I dunno, just never felt any connection to her character at all.

But whether or not I cared for her, I didn't like that the subplot there was pretty much dropped.  Luckily I got the DS exclusive ending in addition to the normal one. I didn't like the normal one because Magus didn't even have a line, he just jumped through the Gate. But the DS ending, known as Dream's Epilogue" might as well be called Magus' Ending. It gives a bit more closure about Magus and Schala.  It's rather tragic as she tells him that all the power he's relentlessly, murderously pursued is for nothing. Power alone cannot save her tormented existence. But rather than understanding what she meant, he just cast away everything. He couldn't fathom that she was trying to clue him into rediscoverign his humanity and looking to other, more meaningful things. When he learned power couldn't save her, he totally despaired. Strength was the only thing he thought worth having and when that proved futile he gave up on everything completely.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 31, 2014)

I like Chrono Cross a lot but I love and actually finished Chrono Trigger.  I like the Chrono Cross art design a lot more than the design in Trigger and that's about all I can say.


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## Furious George (Aug 31, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You finished the game and didn't VM me right away? I thought we had something man
 

Anyway, yeah I agree with your rating overall.

One of my complaints about the combat was the fact that almost every boss was stationary with multiple "parts". It didn't take advantage of how dynamic the battle system was.

Hmm... its sounding like you might actually prefer Chrono Cross' s plot to CT's. Personally after a decade of jrpgs with convoluted mind-fucky plots,  the fun and simplicity of CT was more than welcome.

How dare you not mention Schala's Theme with the other notable music. 6 years dungeon,  no trials. 

I know I always tell you this Zael, but brace yourself for CC's soundtrack. It is rightly considered by many to be the best VG soundtracks ever made.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Aug 31, 2014)

Sorry dude. I haven't been visiting here as much lately and fell out of the habit of posting. If you would like you can read my journey through the game here.


I'm Forsaken Lover obviously. (I was 15 okay? I thought using big words and pretentious names made me smarter than I am)

And I can enjoy a good simple story hence why i enjoyed CT. I just prefer a few twists and turns now and then. Even a game like CT can have those (see Magnus and Janus) so "more convoluted/layered/complex/whatever" definitely doesn't always equal better in my mind. I just don't want be hohumming through everything because I saw it coming a mile away. As I said, my knowledge of Lavos didn't do the game any favors.

To contrast, I'm going into Cross armed with a few facts that don't explain shit. Schala and the Dream Devourer in the Trigger DS ending somehow rlate to CC and Porre conquers Guardia and the CT cast all die? That's what I know. But it's like getting Page 1, 100 and 500 out of a book - it just makes things more muddled because I have no clue how any of this connects together or comes about.  Hell, it's even less than gettin ga full page of a book, it's like getting a couple lines from three separate pages and trying to comprehend teh story from that.

But knowing what Lavos was spoiled me on a fair bit of CT's storyline because it's all rather straightforward. 

I think I'm making sense?

As for Schala's Theme, I did like it. I just...I dunno, I didn't remember it as strongly as the songs I posted. *shrugs* I know a lot of people love it to pieces.

Also
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYoGFvn_fOk[/youtube]

But I do eagerly look forward to CC's soundtrack. Even the people who cannot stand the game extol its wonderful music. Mitsuda composed it around the same time as Xenogears so I imagine there might be some overlap there too.  I know you think CC's soundtrack is superior but I will have to make that judgment call myself. i can tell you which is better is certainly not a clear-cut case for a lot of people. Most people seem to regard Xenogears and CC as Mitsuda's best work so it will be intriguing.

Also from here on I will try to post my thoughts as I progress through Cross on this forum too. It will have to wait till Wedneday though wheN i get some cash and buy it off PSN.


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## Furious George (Aug 31, 2014)

Understood about the plot.

As for overlap between Xenogears and CC's OSTs.... not as much as you'd think.  None at all really, IIRC.

Xenogears' tracks are as a rule much heavier and more varied with the use of instruments.

The sound of Chrono Cross is far more consistent and generally puts you in the mind of the sea (the seashore is a big part of the plot, in actuality and symbolically).

Both are definitely Mitsuda's work but you probably wouldn't link one to the other as far as tone goes... and that's how it should be.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Aug 31, 2014)

Speaking of Xenogears, a guy elsewhere said this when I commented on assessing the storylines of Trigger and Cross and which one i liked more:


> I'd suggest you play them both at least twice before you do.
> 
> Chrono Cross, especially, because it's one of those games where nothing makes sense until the twists kick in. Playing a second time allows you to piece the whole plot together, for better or worse.



My first thought after reading this was "like Xenogears?"

So I guess I'll be playing through Cross twice before I can fully render an opinion on which i prefer in terms of story and characters. 
I don't really think I need multiple playtrhoughs to understand CT though. it was all very upfront and transparent. 

But yes, I love me some debating. Just my threads alone on this topic across the many forums I frequent have sparked a ton of discussion I have to skip because it's laden with spoilers. Once I finish CC I can go back and read all this and contribute my own opinion. It's not worth much of course but I am a JRPG fan always and I hate not being able to weigh in on one of the most hot button issues in Classic JRPG fandom.


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## Naruto (Sep 1, 2014)

At the risk of adding very little to this:

I've only played Trigger. It was one of the best jrpgs I've ever had the pleasure of finishing, and it aged surprisingly well.


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## dragonbattousai (Sep 2, 2014)

I like Chrono Trigger for its gameplay and story.  I also liked the characters and I think if it wasn't for Akira Toriyama's designs, I would have probably never picked it up  to try it.

I also favor Chrono Cross.  The game was unique in its own right.  The tropical atmosphere was a new experience for me in video games.  And then there is the music.  The soundtrack in my opinion is the whole highlight of the game.  The music is what kept me playing to the end.  There are some great songs in both games, but I favor Chrono Cross' over Trigger's.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 3, 2014)

I have Chrono Cross! And man I can't wait until I get a CRT. This is supposed to be the best-looking game on the Playstation but my HD monitor does it no favors.  

In the meantime though I am stuck with my digital download and graphics aren't everything. 

So where I am in the game, Kid just joined the party (I guess it is technically rejoined but I'll get to that) and i saved outside Arni.

1. I'm not so sure about this normal battle music. It gets better I guess but that beginning... Also it's just not that good overall. Certainly no True Mirror from Baten Kaitos. I think my favorite track at the moment is the...is it the second world map theme? The first one sounded kinda like a remix of the CT world map theme (the first one maybe) but this new one is really good.
vote for your favorite companion

2.  So what I was getting at earlier, I take it that the short opening of the game is the alternate world and then everything at Arni the first time was just a flashback. A "how did it come to this?" sort of deal. So while we already had Kid in our party, this is actually when she joined us. 

3. I say "us" because I got Poshul as per the recommendation of a person elsewhere. I'm not so sure about the big fluffy talking dog but, hey, it probably made battles a little quicker than if it had just been Serge alone. Plus if frickin' Chu-Chu couldn't ruin Xenogears, I doubt my canine friend will ruin this.

4. Speaking of which, I wonder if all the stuff with Arni, and the conversation with Leena, is a Xenogears-like fakeout. You know, the stuff in Lahan and Fei and Alice looking like they would be a couple as opposed to Alice being vaporizeD and forgotten about 1% into the game. Kato did write that part of Xenogears after all...  Maybe Leena will be lucky and just be forgotten about. 

5. I can't say too much more at the moment. I mean, not much has really hapened from a plot perspective. Just got some Komodo Dragon scales and had a sweet scene with Leena and now I have no idea what's gonna happen next. Presumably it will lead to us storming that one place and looking for "Lynx" but I have no idea how long until that. Also having heard Chrono Cross' large cast was such a big thing about the game, and that not everyone is recruitable, 
 I mainly just wanted to look at the pictures and stuff, avoided all spoilery info. Anyway, my point was just that I know Nikki is a party member and a few NPCs in....uh, "Alternate Arni" were talking about him.

6. Like I said, can't say too much overall right now but just at the moment, my favorite character is Kid.  I thought her accent would bug me but she's feisty and I like that.

7. The battle system definitely isn't that complicated once you start using it. Just all the explanations and words online made it sound worse than it is.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 8, 2014)

I have a paradox for you all.

I didn't think Schala's Theme was the best theme in the series.

But I think Schala's Theme is the best theme in the series.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm9GLeK3syk[/youtube]

Phew, that was one helluva ride. 48+ hours. Just beat the game this morning. Think I'm gonna sleep before I post my final thoughts on it as a whole.


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## Violent by Design (Sep 8, 2014)

Chrono Cross and Chrono Trigger both things have in common in that they are filled with tropes from the generation they were made in. Both are not really all that unique, but one could make the argument they are very well crafted.

Chrono Tigger like other RPGs of its time is more condensed, straight to the point, plot is more on the simplistic side.

Chrono Cross is like most PSX rpgs, just really big and convoluted. A lot of ambition is put in the game, so it has a very sprawling feel, but it's not very well balanced, and even though there is a lot of content, a lot of it feels kinda meaningless, where as Chrono Trigger.


As for the question, I'd say Chrono Trigger is easily better than Chrono Cross. Chrono Cross is decent, but it really gets lost in the shuffle with other RPGs like Legend of Dragoon, Suikoden, Xeno and all those other super long RPGs that have a billion characters.

Chrono Trigger is like the best FF game, even though it's not an FF. Pretty much every thing you'd want in FF4 and FF6 is done better in Chrono Trigger.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 8, 2014)

Okay, let's get this over with.

Chrono Cross.

This will be just about CC. I'll do CC vs. CT later.

I liked when my impressions are dashed, when the unexpected happens. That was part of why Magus was hands down the best playable character in Trigger. Well, in regards to Chrono Cross, it certainly does a masterful job of serving you off the path you thought was beaten and laid out for you. Whether it was Serge becoming Lynx, the Dead Sea Ruins, Chronopolis or the stuff after, this game thrives on being routine and then suddenly BAM, you don't know where you are going. There was foreshadowing of course in the form of your first conversation with "the Prophet of Time" way back when you first get to Viper Manor but that's almost akin to the opening FMV of Xenogears. What the hell you just witnessed/read won't make sense for a long, LONG time. So while it's foreshadowing in the most technical sense, at the time, it was just a bunch of -Words-.  I will enjoy revisiting that scene during my second playthrough and seeing how much more I can grasp.

So yes, back to the game as a whole. I enjoyed the story insofar as the general outline. The storytelling could have been tighter in a number of ways, especially the last "arc." If I didn't know better, I would say this game ran out of budget too. 

\
Now onto the characters. Oh boy, if I had to list the triumvirate of why people seem to hate this game:

1. IT KILLED AND RAPED EVERYTHING I EVER LOVED ABOUT CHRONO TRIGGER.

2. THE PLOT MAKES NO SENSE.

3. NONE OF THE CHARACTERS MATTER OR HAVE ANY PERSONALITY.

Well I'm gonna lay this down for ya, mates. Kid is better than every single member of the CT cast. I know that's a comparison and I said I'd save that for later but I'm just gonna get this out of the way right now. Even as she was absent for like...half the game at least, she still had more personality and was more interesting than Robo, Lucca, Ayla or frickin' Crono. Frog, Marle and Magus were the best characters in CT and they were islands among an unimpressive sea of mediocrity and blandness.

The flashback of the orphanage being burned down? Kid having everyone she's ever known and loved brutally murdered right in front of her? And then being left all alone in the world just as she had thought she had someone to love and hold onto? Yeah, very powerful stuff for me. The music also helped but I'll get to that later.

As for everyone else? Well I only got about 25 or so party members and of those 25 I only paid attention to Karsh. From the first time you saw him after coming to Another World I was like "this guy is gonna be important."  Perhaps a little overestimation on my part but remember what I said about liking when my impressions are all wrong? Well in one instance, I was glad that they were wrong in regards to Karsh because you just wouldn't associate a man in his role with his type of personality. He's a Dragoon, a knightly knight and a commander. You'd expect something...I dunno, regal or formal. But he has the most crude, blunt way of speaking. One of the funniest and most awesome little parts of the game was when you visit I think it was Another Zappa's house and meet Pierre. i had Karsh in my party and his contribution was saying "Zappa let this fruitcake stay in my room?!!?!" That sums up Karsh well I thought. And luck would have it that I even stumbled upon Karsh's backstory which I really enjoyed. I feel so sorry for him but it's a mark of what a good person he is that he did not for a second begrudge Dario being alive. He was glad that his old friends could be reunited even if he still loved Riddel.

And Serge...I feel there is no competition between Serge and Crono. For one thing, Crono didn't have any real role in the story. I think Serge benefits from him actually being integral to the plot. Crono though? I could have grabbed any random kid out of their house and they could have been as important as Crono. Serge, by virtue of being Serge, exuded more personality and likability than Crono. There was also the scene where, after a brainwashed Kid confronts you all at Hermit's Hideaway, he just steps away from the group and flashbacks to all his times with Kid. That simple, single scene did more for establishing a bond between those two than Crono and Marle's little romance in CT. 
Crono is so self-insert it kinda hurts.

Oh and one character I want to give a shoutout to is Harle.  I looked up the various endings and how to get them after I beat the game and it just so happens that I had a save right before Terra Tower. This enabled me to get the ending where you just confront the Time Devourer without doing anything with the Dragon God. In this ending, the various beleaguered races of El Nido ally with the Dragon God and reek bloody vengeance upon all humans in the archipelago. I bring this up because it made me seriously reconsider Harle's character. I had begun to really like her a lot more than my first couple impressions would have made me think but I did kinda forget about her eventually. Thsi ending though makes me consider just what a sad little existence she must have lived.  She obviously did not want the same thing as her fellow Dragons... She had come to sincerely care for Serge and the rest of the world and clearly had no hatred in her. But she's just a part of the whole, a cog in the wheel, and couldn't do anything about resisting her own fate.

People have speculated about Wazuki maybe holding Lynx back and that's why he didn't just immediately go to Chronopolis when he had Serge's body. Well perhaps some part of Harle held the Dragon God back and kept it from immediately laying waste to El Nido.

Getting back to story for a second though, am I the only one who constantly rolled my eyes in the Chronopolis section when they described how the CT cast took down Lavos? Looking it up, Miguel said it first but the "ghosts" in Chronopolis say it a few times too.

Miguel: -insert big speech about how Lavos was all-powerful and manipulating things for aeons and damn near destroyed the planet-  Were it not for a teenage boy and his group of adventurer friends, that is...

Every time I read that, or heard the scientists in Chronopolis refer to the CT cast as such, I just pictured them speaking with the most derision imaginable in their voice. It just sound so patently absurd and stupid and cliche.

Now on the plot as a whole, I feel the pacing could have been better. The game has a REALLY bad habit of not giving clear directions on what you are supposed to do next, especially once you have a boat and the world map is opened up to you. There is certainly a lot I've forgotten about CC but that's just because I spent so much time dicking around that I remember more about the billion random battles I fought than some of the conversations and cutscenes.  Also, as I noted earlier, I felt the conclusion to FATE and Lynx was very unsatisfying. I do enjoy the reveal that, in the end, it was largely a struggle between two evil powers. Or, at the very least, two powers that cared nothing about humans. It ws all a war between FATE and the Dragon God and our heroes were just pawns stuck in the middle. And then there was Balthasar off to the sidelines, manipulating both sides and us.  I guess when you are the Prophet of Time you are given a bit of license in how much you can control.... Honestly, the "how" bugs me much less than the presentation of it. 

In keeping with how meh most of the ending was, Terra Tower also felt very bland. I expected better dungeons out of this game. I mean, a good chunk of the place didn't even have music. Oh when it did have music it was pretty good but I'll get to that in a second. I just think Chronopolis and the Kid flashback were really the last great moments of the game and everything after was...underwhelming. It was interesting but just not convincingly shown.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 8, 2014)

Now, on a better note, let's talk music! The thing everyone, even the haters, agrees is great about this game.

Back when I was playing CT, a lot of people mentioned the greatness of Schala's Theme. I found it a good enough theme but, like Schala herself, rather unremarkable.
Paradoxically though, the best song in CC was Schala's theme.

Garden of the Gods. In my mind, before I knew the actual title of this track, I thought of this as the "Dragons Theme" or "Fighting Fate." It has such a...holy and melodic air and it plays when Serge is reborn to fight and destroy FATE hence why I liked to call it "Fighting Fate."  

Speaking of which, I don't think any other game beats this one when it comes to sticking it to fate and destiny and all that. First you beat FATE, than then the Dragon God and then the eventual destroyer of existence itself. You bested destiny three times. Good job heroes.

Oh yeah, music.

Another World Map Theme.  This was the first song in the game that really made me sit up and take notice of CC's great soundtrack. It could honestly be the greatest World Map Theme ever, along with CT'S Corridors of Time.

Voyage(Home). As if to make up for the fact the other world got a much better map theme, Home gets a much better boat theme. Sometimes I forgot which "world" I was in so I'd just pause and listen to the music for a second and that would help remind me.

Terra Tower Theme. Well I say it's the theme for it but it's really only the theme for the last 1/3 or so. I don't know what happened there but whatever. i enjoyed the fact they kept this playing during battles too instead of the battle music. It kept up a great, creepy atmosphere. It really did make you feel like you were closing in on some grim, dark fated hour that would determine everything.

Dead Sea. For my money, THE best location theme in the game. That whole section of the game really was perfect, even including the Miguel boss fight and how annoying it was. But hearing this theme for the entire Dead Sea, wondering just where - and when - the hell you are, traveling amongst the remnants of a destroyed city and later learning it was "a dead timeline" just makes the music even more haunting  and perfect.

Dragoons Theme. Why this didn't play during your fight with the three of them, I have no idea, Well at least it played before the fight and that was enough. Karsh, Marcy and ZOAH - do not mess with the Acacia Dragoons! I almost feel like doing my second playthrough with a team of the three of them... Also this theme will play the whole time.

Dragon God. I have no idea how you over-level in a game like this but I guess I was over-leveled because this fight was pathetically easy. Yet I was still stressed out on it because I thought this was the time I had to do the Chrono Cross thing to get the true ending. I was wrong of course but whatever. Going back and listening to the song again, I missed out on how awesome it is by focusing my energy on something I didn't even need to do. That's a bummer but at least I know how awesome it is now. Best final boss theme ever? Nah but very good nonetheless. I've heard some reviewers say Mitsuda's greatest weakness is battle themes and i kind of agree with that. Oh it's onlY RELATIVELY weak I must stress. This song is great, as was Xenogears' Awakening or Xenosaga's Last Battle but compared to the other things, like world map and character themes? It doesn't quite match up.

Life - A Faraway Promise. You HAVE to get the real ending if for no other reason than to listen to this. It's so....so amazingly beautiful and triumphant and really gives a more idealistic and hopeful tone to the otherwise rather dreary and bleak final act of the story.  Schala is freed, Serge has no memories (although he somehow told Leena about FATE and stuff so....he does have memories.....?) and someday Serge an Kid will be reunited. Makes me a bit weepy-eyed...

I think that will do for my favorite songs in the game There was plenty more great music to be heard but these are the best for me and I would put them against any other RPG song you can name.

So while this technically might play into CT vs. CC, it's truly more about my appraisal of CC's story. Firstly, "Guardia was destroyed" and all that? No one cares, it's not important at all. What happened to Crono or Marle? No one seems to know or care about that either.  Going into this game no one stressed that it all transpired in an isolated sector of the world, far off from Guardia or the rest of it. In fact, even Porre isn't THAT important on the whole. They're more like an afterthought or third party of very little consequence.  Of course they made robots and stuff (Grobyc is a robot right?) and I guess they must have gotten to Chronopolis somehow if Grobyc's arm was found there. Well Grobyc mentioned it was some long lost superweapon... i wasn't too clear on all that.

But yeah, CT kill count:

Lucca

Robo

Gato

Far from hating everything and anything CT, maybe Kato just hated Lucca. 

But perhaps one aspect of CC sticking it to CT that I haven't heard talked about was the Masamune now being an evil sword that made our heroes kill their good friends. 

So that's all I can think of for right now...

Main Pros:

Music

Battle System

Kid

Harle

Karsh

Serge

Dead Sea Ruins

Chronopolis

Various plot twists.


Main Cons:

The ending, especially the fate (unintentional choice of words there) of Lynx.

The game not telling you what the hell you need to do  a lot of the time.

Being Lynx for far too long.

TOO MANY PARTY MEMBERS!!! I don't care about them maybe not having a lot of personality, I just couldn't decide who I wanted to use. 

Also Steal being a unique skill that is amazingly useful. Even if i didn't like Kid, I would have had to have her or Fargo in my party at all times to use it. This limits your party choice even more. 

Kid being out of our party for damned near half the game or more.

Final Score - Not Xenogears/10.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 9, 2014)

I figure this is about as fair as I can be. I am fresh off my first and only playthrough of both games. I do intend to replay both of them of course and see what all I might have missed or misunderstood.

Now first off, I must confess a certain bias on my part here: I like LONG games. It's part of why JRPGs are the genre of video game I've played the most of.  I was told going into Trigger that it was short by JRPG standards and that was absolutely true. I think my run, and this was my first run which is always the longest for me, was only about 20 hours. Cross was close to 50 hours. So Cross is over twice as long as Trigger. Now I know what a lot of people would say in response to this - a s good, concise, well-paced story beats a doorstopper. Perhaps you are right. What's the old cliche? Good things come in small packages? After all, the big thing wrapped up in te package could be a load of elephant trout while the thing in the aforementioned small package is a priceless diamond.

So that was the "wrappings" I was discussing there. Cross is longer but is what it contains better? I....find it hard to say. Maybe I'm a superficial ninny but I like the pretty and gigantic box even if what's inside it wasn't all that great a lot of the time.

Story - Okay, dropping the metaphors,I'm gonna say flat-out. I would rather replay Chrono Cross than Chrono Trigger. Does this mean Cross is the better game? I have no idea. I already admitted I was perhaps influenced by a lot of skin-deep flash and pizzazz. The thing is I just had a lot more fun playing Chrono Cross. It kept me guessing even though I knew a few details about what was to happen. I will gladly admit that my foreknowledge of Lavos really crippled Trigger's storyline in a lot of ways and thus both games perhaps weren't starting off on an equal footing. It be like if I had started off Cross knowing about FATE.  But regardless of what I knew or did not know going into the games, Trigger presented a very simple, bare-bones story. A group of adventurers found out about an alien and said they wanted to stop that alien and they used time travel to do it. Yes there's a bit more to it but I have just summarized 90% of Trigger's storyline in a single sentence. Could you narrow down everything important in Cross with a single, simple sentence?

But perhaps to some people that's a bad thing and they would condemn Cross for the exact reasons I am praising it and vice versa for Trigger. To them, Cross might some a bloated, self-indulgent monstrosity and I can see that. At the very end. It was at that point when a lot of things seemed to fall apart and I have no idea what happened.  I don't think i twas an intentional design choice but something forced upon the developers and writers for whatever reason. But up until that point, up until the climax at Chronopolis, things were amazing in my view. Maybe I'd change a few things here and there but the overall package I really liked.  By contrast, there are precisely...two parts of Trigger I found particularly memorable or well-done. Well, longer segments or stretches of game I mean. Point 1 would be Frog's Arc all the way from reclaiming the Masamune up to defeating Magus. That whole section was perfection. The other part was the "climax" of the Zeal Arc. I thought it started off kind of weak but the Ocean Palace and the immediate aftermath was similarly flawless. But really, Trigger's ending is a different kind of weak than Cross'. I didn't find reviving Chrono to be interesting or emotional enough and the confrontation with Lavos had absolutely no...drive? No impending sense of urgency. Consequence of time travel I suppose. You can literally do whatever you want whenever you want.

Characters - Now getting away from the overall plot, let's examine characters. People have said in the past Trigger was "character-driven" and Cross was "plot-driven." I can definitely agree with that. However just because a game or piece of fiction is focused on more than one than the other doesn't mean said other side is outright terrible. You play Trigger for its plucky band of adventurers but that doesn't mean the whole Lavos thing is to be ignored or looked down upon.  And the same is true for Cross, it's a game that dwells a lot on its storyline butit can still give characters intriguing backstories, develop their personality and so-on.

Let's start off with our mains. Serge vs. Crono. Both Silent Protagonists, both kinda just wandering where the game takes them. However, the thing about Crono is that he's...he's nothing. I could easily take an NPC and put them in place of Crono and there'd be no difference in Trigger or its events. Why does Marle even love him? Yes, Serge might be a living Plot Device but at least that justifies his presence in the game as our main character. It HAS to be Serge while it doesn't HAVE to be Crono. There's also little things scattered about the game that definitely justify a potential relationship between Serge and Kid more than love blossoming between Crono and Marle. Stuff like him reflecting on their time together after she reappears under Lynx's control, or when you rescue her from the burning orphanage. That hug he gives Lil' Kid was just...so sweet.

Now, moving onto characters with a tad more actual personality to them, I've made no secret of the fact Magus  was hands down my choice for Best Character in Trigger It seems this it not at all an unpopular sentiment so I'm glad I can see eye-to-eye with people in that regard.  His presentation was just so perfect from the first time you confront him. Yet learning who he is just makes things a 100x times more perfect. Yes, I suppose everyone in the party "had a reason" to be there and to fight Lavos. However, even disregarding the fact he's my favorite character in the game, I absolutely brought Magus along for the final battle because it just....it's the only way that makes sense. Yes he's gonna kill off humanity in nearly 1,000 years but I just felt that Trigger suffered from that age-old JRPG dilemma of "why are they even here?"  In a thematic sense, it worked because you had everyone from every era but what really did Robo bring to the table that was essential? And did we need three people from Crono's time? What did Lucca bring to the table?

Of course Cross is more guilty of this than Trigger by a lot. Half the cast doesn't need to be there and a good chunk of the rest could settle for temporary playable characters at most.  A guy elsewhere listed these as his choice for the only characters you should get in the game from a story perspective:

"Serge, Kid, Guile, Norris, Glenn, Radius, Fargo, Greco"

I disagree with Greco. I'd put Karsh in his place but ah well. Nikki also sounds like he's rather important but I of course missed all that.

Now, admittedly, this is one area that I have a much more limited knowledge of Cross than Trigger and in which Cross is simply, objectively beyond its predecessor. While you could argue the essential-ness of these characters, a lot of them have more personality and subplots to them than some detractors give them credit for. A huge reason I want to replay CC is to uncover a lot of this. CT though, I did all the endgame sidequest sand that was that for the characters. I know everything there is to know about Crono and the rest of them. I still have a ton more to learn about what happens with Nikki and Fargo and that whole subplot, and I'm sure Van has some resolution to his problems and even Karsh, one of my favorite characters, apparently has a bit more to him if you take him to see home Zappa.

Overall I almost feel as if I'm not qualified to fully assess Cross' cast at this point in time because I need to play through the game more and try to uncover the myriad sidequests and things that relate to everyone's development. That is something at least I will definitely be using a walkthrough for.

Now let's get to the star of my "CC Characters vs. CT characters" discussion.

Representing Team Trigger - Schala.



Representing Team Cross - Kid



Schala was this chick who had like, three or fur scenes in Trigger and that was about it. Not even long or memorable scenes either. Unless we count Lavos destroyign Zeal as a scene of hers but, really, she was just a part of that scene and not particularly significant. Learning what I did about Kid - everything makes a lot of sense. Lucca's letter to her, about how she wants Kid to knock off the tomboy act and become more polite and ladylike? It perfectly sums up why Kid is better.

Let's get one thing straight - Schala killed Zeal. Queen Zeal was perhaps more largely to blame but it was Schala's stereotypical "I love everyone and everything, even the crazy and evil" that doomed the kingdom. Queen Zeal couldn't have done crap if Schala had just, I dunno, jumped off a cliff or run away or something.  But she was all flowery princess and junk and thus humanity was nearly wiped out.

But Kid? She takes no guff from nobody. Perhaps there is some residual Schala in there...some temporal or genetic memory or that kind of thing. Deep down, Kid knows that her old, weak nature is very much a bad thing. Combined with her own very hard life, she had morphed into a far more independent person and characters. Kid is almost the antithesis of Schala in how she thinks and acts and that just is so perfect.

Favorite CT Character - Magus
Favorite CC Character - Kid
Both equally great.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 9, 2014)

(Now it's time for a seamless segue) Speaking of Schala vs. Kid...

Music -  Chrono Cross Wins. Flawless Victory.

Okay, it's not quite that simple. Trigger certainly hooked me with its music faster than Cross did. The first track I remember "wowing" me in Cross was the world map theme for Another. However it's all uphill from there. There are so many good tracks in both games it's hard to compare but I've already made it known that I prefer "Steal-Stealing Girl" to "Schala's Theme." Of course CT's normal battle music is MUCH better than Cross' but that's because the battle theme in Cross was an uncharacteristic low point.  However, face it, nothing in CT's soundtrack can compare to "People Imprisoned by Destiny" that plays when you fight Miguel/Dario.  Trigger's stand-out tracks are many but I'd say only "Corridors of Time" really reaches the highs that Cross' soundtrack achieved.

Gameplay - And really, there is also no competition when it comes to Gameplay. Chrono Trigger's battle system had a neat gimmick but it didn't use said gimmick at all most of the time. Things were just as simple as the FFFIV days but enemies moved now. Ooh! Cross' gameplay is remarkably intuitive and while I was daunted at first I quickly came to grasp it. I'm not some master or anything, and the game isn't really that hard,  but it still has so much more in the way of layers and the numerous party members, while many are the same, still offer up a great diversity to keep your interest up than the CT cast.

Conclusion - Both good games. Please leave your pitchforks and burning torches at home just because I think I slightly prefer Cross and feel Trigger is weighed down a lot by the time it was made.

I'm reminded of this quote from Kid which I will now use to thoroughly mock both games:'

"Perhaps it was the awakenin' Lavos who pulled the Frozen Flame back through time to it. Maybe so that Lavos, who saw the possibility that some young adventurers might destroy it, could create a backup plan."

Every time I read this or another line about how "a group of adventurers stopped Lavos,"  I imagine the characters saying it having the most derisive snorts in their voices.

Lavoso: -strokes nonexistent beard- So I have been manipulating this entire planet for several million years and my power is so vast and limitless that it accidentally brought down the greatest civilization ever known to humankind. Heck, me simply landing on this mudball wiped out the dominant lifeforms. But alas! My PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS are no use against a group of adventurers (TM) composed of a robot, a frog, an apewoman and three teenagers! MY PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS could reach through space and time and drag a city here but they are no use against three kids from some podunk town!  Given a couple more years they probably would have all gotten the Plague and died.


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## Furious George (Sep 9, 2014)

-Hmmmm... yep, your take on the CT's plot vs CC's is exactly what I guess it would be.  Can I call them or can I call them?  

-Kid is better than every single character from CT? What? why?  

Now I am merely a super-smart primate and am never one to tell a fellow gamer that they are horribly horribly wrong about something... but I think a "hot off the press" impression might be making you go a certain way that you might not otherwise go with your observations. 

Let some time pass and see which characters stick more in your mind when other things fade...

- You make it a point to say that you think the devs ran out of money during production of CC and had to cut things short... well, I wonder if that had something to do with having to create character models, character portraits and battle animations for 40+ characters for virtually no reason. >_>

Both CT and CC were definitely products of their time (a very ironic fact given the themes of the games) but I think CC ended up suffering from it far worse. Suikoden gave us a huge cast of characters cause' we were creating an army. I don't know why the fuck I have to go around recruiting mutant dogs and scarecrows other than Squaresoft at the time being under the impression that bigger made better. 

And that same feeling of excess permeates every facet of Chrono Cross, not just the cast. You spend huge quantities of the game doing things without any strong incentive and are forced to get involved with people who don't make a lick of difference. Kinda like being out on the sea, you feel like you are constantly at the mercy of something stronger with no power to direct anything... a feeling that fits well with the plot but not so well from a gameplay standpoint. 

What is funny about your point with Crono being a self-insert and Serge being more crucial to the plot is that  Crono still feels far more important and in-control than Serge because of their difference in the plot packaging. Things happen *to* a group of important kids in Chrono Trigger. Things happen *around* a small country of nobodies in Chrono Cross.

- We are 100% agreed on the Dead Sea theme. An amazing track that, like most of what CC's music does, tells the story better than actual plot and characterization ever does. 

There are other points I can and will comment on when I have more time. 

Glad you finally got a chance to experience these two great games.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 9, 2014)

I said Magus and Kid were equal... All CT had besides him was Frog and maybe Marle. I'll admit Frog was good and his sidequest was my favorite next to Lucca's. I liked reading Cyrus' gave inscription and it says something horrible like "here lies Cyrus, the fool who defied Magus."  Than you talk with Cyrus' ghost and Frog feels all better and his awesome theme is playing when you re-read the grave and get a far more fitting inscription.

Also what makes the characters of CC "nobodies" compared to the kids from CT?


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## Furious George (Sep 9, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Also what makes the characters of CC "nobodies" compared to the kids from CT?



Every member of your cast in CT was either important in stopping the chaos brought into the world from Lavos or had a direct stake in wanting to fight alongside Crono (other than something general like not wanting their world destroyed.). IIRC.

Your cast of playable characters in CC include a fisher boy, the fisher boy's mom, a weird card-carrying carnie, a mushroom man, a dancing duo and their pirate father? 

Frankly, I don't even know where you are going with questioning the difference in importance.


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## Violent by Design (Sep 9, 2014)

> Also what makes the characters of CC "nobodies" compared to the kids from CT?



The characters in CT all had plot relevance partly due to its small roster and focus on the main story...a lot of the characters in CC are just bonus characters that are there for shits and giggles. This seems like a pretty silly question.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 9, 2014)

Well yeah, if we include Funguy and stuff, then the CC cast are "nobodies." But I figured we would be comparing the more plot relevant character. There's plenty of characters in CC who have reasons to be there and have substance.


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