# Minato Vs Obito~ "Obito did not know" part



## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> Page 242
> 
> Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai - Kamui
> No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive
> ...




So, usually, the argument is "Obito did not know about Level 2" and all the other stuff. Now, we know
Kamui does not require him to know as it's more or less automatic. Thus, Obito's knowledge is irrelevant in the same way like how Gaara's sand works even without his knowledge. I.E when his uncle attacked him with his Kunais from his back.


Does this new info change anything, or am I looking too much into it?


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2015)

How interesting. Is Obito always "intangible" then? The conscious effort is solidifying? 

There's also another interpretation though. If he activates Kamui, the transferring of the body parts could be considered "unconscious" because he's not consciously moving those body part in response to an attack. Once activated the jutsu will do it for him, but he still needs to consciously _activate_ the jutsu.

That said, there's _this_, which is more in line with my first sentence.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

Yeah, that is very interesting.

Are you talking about a fight between base Minato and adult Obito who is seen in Shippuden and War Arc?


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## Alex Payne (Jul 8, 2015)

I thought that was common knowledge. Obito phased through Rin's death body because he didn't turn Kamui off due to inexperience. It needs to be turned on or off. Phasing is automatic. Otherwise any sneak/blindside attack would have worked. Obito with knowledge on Hiraishin V2 simply wouldn't try to suck Minato in when there is a kunai flying nearby.


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2015)

What Hussain is questioning is whether or not Kamui "turning on" is subconscious.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 8, 2015)

Turning Kamui on was subconscious the first time Obito did it - when he went on a rampage. After that it was manual. Kamui on - everything goes through me. Kamui off - I am solid but can use sucking in tech.


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

I suppose it's possible that through use and experience Obito's "subconscious" would have become more adept at identifying threats and thus reacting to them unconsciously. It would imo be the only way to explain how Obito couldn't react to Minato's strike-speeding coming off of a blindside attack versus being able to react to a Gate-Gai's striking-speed coming off of a blindside attack, both waiting for him to turn tangible right before attacking. I think this makes sense from a RL perspective at well although someone who knows psychology would have to confirm that.

On that line of thinking it's also possible that a younger, more inexperienced Obito would have relied more his own conscious activation of Kamui as opposed to letting his body completely take over and do it for him. Or possibly it was retconned during the War-Arc to make it possible for Obito to basically phase through everything requiring Kakashi's Kamui to become a necessity.

Just my honest opinion Hussain


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## Turrin (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> So, usually, the argument is "Obito did not know about Level 2" and all the other stuff. Now, we know
> Kamui does not require him to know as it's more or less automatic. Thus, Obito's knowledge is irrelevant in the same way like how Gaara's sand works even without his knowledge. I.E when his uncle attacked him with his Kunais from his back.


The text means that the phasing itself is done subconsciously, just like when the doctor hits your knee and your react to it by kicking your leg that is a subconscious reflexive action. And the same is true her with Obito, as in he doesn't need to think through the steps of phasing a body part it just happens reflexively in response to danger. However he does still have to activate Kamui, otherwise he'd constantly be depleting chakra on Kamui and constantly be reaching his 5min limit for Kamui. So the issue still remains that Obito didn't activate Kamui, because he wasn't aware of the danger from Minato until too late. 

All this really means is that when Kamui is activated Obito is even more hax and his ST Jutsu is even better than before.


Edit: AP basically Ninja'd me.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 8, 2015)

The thing I wonder about Obito's Kamui - is how does targeted genjutsu affect him. Chakra network automatically goes to another dimension?

Oh and "The godly eyes that conquer fate's horizon!!" is awesome and 100% true.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

changes nothing 
minato still beats any version of obito that doesn't have juubi 

just imagine the guy used 1 kunai. and won imagine using 30 kunai to fight obito


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## Hachibi (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> changes nothing
> minato still beats any version of obito that doesn't have juubi
> 
> just imagine the guy used 1 kunai. and won imagine using 30 kunai to fight obito



I doubt Minato can beat DMS Obito without BM. Fucker is basically DMS Kakashi with higher stamna, no time limit and may or may not have Susano.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 8, 2015)

Obito was a lot younger. Forced to try and finish the fight as soon as possible because of Kyubi. And likely lacked a spare eye for Izanagi. And Minato edged him out in a speed contest. It was a very close battle.

Imagine if Kyubi was alongside Obito fighting Minato. Don't think Minato would have been able to win that one. He could deal with either separately. But both at the same time?


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2015)

Not even Madara could beat both Obito & Kurama together, unless he could rip Obito's control away.

The only non Gods that I'd take are Hashirama & probably BSM Naruto.


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## Turrin (Jul 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> The thing I wonder about Obito's Kamui - is how does targeted genjutsu affect him. Chakra network automatically goes to another dimension?
> 
> Oh and "The godly eyes that conquer fate's horizon!!" is awesome and 100% true.


Warp his brain away 



Alex Payne said:


> Obito was a lot younger. Forced to try and finish the fight as soon as possible because of Kyubi. And likely lacked a spare eye for Izanagi. And Minato edged him out in a speed contest. It was a very close battle.
> 
> Imagine if Kyubi was alongside Obito fighting Minato. Don't think Minato would have been able to win that one. He could deal with either separately. But both at the same time?


This entry Hussain posted outlines exactly why Minato could not beat Obito under fair conditions. If Obito didn't have to rush to defeat Minato, due to circumstance, he would not have had to go for a quick end by warping Minato away, instead he could have stayed in Kamui intangibility mode and just attacked Minato with other Jutsu, as Minato wastes away his chakra hitting nothing but air, while Kamui auto pilot phases those body parts in and out. Which is exactly what Obito was doing against Naruto, B, Gai, and Kakashi, and is exactly why those 4 combined despite being much stronger than Minato couldn't land a blow on him w/o Kakashi's Kamui.

Thanks Hussain for 100% proving MS-Obito > Minato


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

ok obito had to rush to loose to minato 
that's true

we are forgetting the obito attacked minato from behind to start with 

obito had knowledge minato did not 

and minato also had to rush to finish the fight. I love how that part is ignored 

or does everyone forget the second obito fled minato went to deal with kyuubi


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> changes nothing
> minato still beats any version of obito that doesn't have juubi
> 
> just imagine the guy used 1 kunai. and won imagine using 30 kunai to fight obito



I know. 
but since his feats is a lot of time gets underrated, I thought if Kamui is automatic then the whole
"Obito did not know blah blah blah"  will be put to rest.  



> This entry Hussain posted outlines exactly why Minato could not beat Obito under fair conditions. If Obito didn't have to rush to defeat Minato, due to circumstance, he would not have had to go for a quick end by warping Minato away, instead he could have stayed in Kamui intangibility mode and just attacked Minato with other Jutsu, as Minato wastes away his chakra hitting nothing but air, while Kamui auto pilot phases those body parts in and out. Which is exactly what Obito was doing against Naruto, B, Gai, and Kakashi, and is exactly why those 4 combined despite being much stronger than Minato couldn't land a blow on him w/o Kakashi's Kamui.
> 
> Thanks Hussain for 100% proving MS-Obito > Minato



Or Minato uses a clone, Obito warp it, and gets fucked up. 

which is precisely why Minato was not allowed to use clones in that fight. 

the only thing I proved is Minato gets more credits that people give to him. 
Had he not been rush to defend his people, and family, Obito would have getting more fucked. 

but anyway, if that makes you sleep at night, Turrin. So be it. lol


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I doubt Minato can beat DMS Obito without BM. Fucker is basically DMS Kakashi with higher stamna, no time limit and *may or may not have Susano.*


Entry confirms both Kamui eyes grant Susano'O, and with S-T capabilities.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

well tbh 
all depends on a person point of view 

like when its oh this guy got the feat of doing this despite no one else being in said situation therefore that gai is above all those never put in said situation always find that hilarious 

esp when portrayal is taken well out of the window. 

odd after the manga ends kishi hypes minato speed but yet his speed isn't all that impressive to some. you would think with all the juudara's that exist hyping minato speed simply puts him at an impossible high point

but yh tobirama is faster cuz he got better feats.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well tbh
> all depends on a person point of view
> 
> like when its oh this guy got the feat of doing this despite no one else being in said situation therefore that gai is above all those never put in said situation always find that hilarious
> ...


Minato out-speed 8th Gate Gai in the 5th step, and yet people downgrade the hell out of that. 

but I am waiting for the episode now, too bad the wait will be longer.


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ok obito had to rush to loose to minato
> that's true
> 
> we are forgetting the obito attacked minato from behind to start with


And would have won there if Obito had not foolishly stalled warping Minato by talking at him first; something Minato later confirms.

Even with knowledge it doesn't preclude the possibly of Obito through some distraction appearing behind Minato and doing the same thing, although of course then it would be more difficult.



> obito had knowledge minato did not


Obito lost because of lack of knowledge. Just saying.



> and minato also had to rush to finish the fight. I love how that part is ignored


A rushed fight favors Minato, or are we going to pretend that Minato being forced into a foot-race with a primarily defensive and opportunistic fighter isn't completely beneficial to Minato?



> or does everyone forget the second obito fled minato went to deal with kyuubi


Preferable to dealing with Obito and Kurama at the same time. Again, just saying.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

> [=StickaStick;53952017]And would have won there if Obito had not foolishly stalled warping Minato by talking at him first; something Minato later confirms.


What did Minato conform? We all know that Obito can't warp that fast when he is warping others. 




> Obito lost because of lack of knowledge. Just saying.


Minato had Zero knowledge. He still floored Obito. 


> A rushed fight favors Minato, or are we going to pretend that Minato being forced into a foot-race with a primarily defensive and opportunistic fighter isn't completely beneficial to Minato?


And Minato was not rush to save his village or are forgetting that he is the Hokage? 
He did not take the time to use SM, clones, or level 3 FTG. 


> Preferable to dealing with Obito and Kurama at the same time. Again, just saying.


Minato can use contract seal. Just saying. Not to mention he can redirect all of his attacks. 

------
honestly did not intend this thread to be another "Minato Vs Obito" thread, but I kinda knew that
how it will turn out to be. 

-----------------

@Turrin

about the Kamui and how it works. Obito does not need to keep using chakra if it automatics. 

Gaara's sand protect him automatically, but that does not mean he keeps putting chakra non-stop the whole time. However, he can still control it
willingly if he wants.

The same with Suigetsu's body and how it turns out to water automatically with any hit.

Actually that explains better how Obito kept using Kamui almost nonstop during the War without being exhausted. 
unlike all the other MS users whom their power is not automatic which result of them getting exhausted much faster than Obito.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

> StickaStick said:
> 
> 
> > And would have won there if Obito had not foolishly stalled warping Minato by talking at him first; something Minato later confirms.
> ...


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> What did Minato conform? We all know that Obito can't warp that fast when he is warping others.


You've read the fight Hussain, many times I'm sure, so you should know this. But...

When Minato stated that it would come down to a split-second decision. That implies that if Obito could gotten his hand on Minato first he would have won. This corroborates Obito's assertion that talking was the only thing that stopped him from successfully warping Minato the first time.



> Minato had Zero knowledge. He still floored Obito.


A tribute to Minato's intelligence and quick thinking; however, it doesn't change the fact that Obito was hit because he was unsuspecting to Minato's intention/ability to use Level 2.



> And Minato was not rush to save his village or are forgetting that he is the Hokage?
> He did not take the time to use SM, clones, or level 3 FTG.


You're saying the same thing Icegaze did that I responded to, so please don't play dumb. 

Again, who does a foot-race, forced by the circumstances of the fight, favor in this scenario? You know the answer to this.

And Obito didn't use Izanagi so they were both fighting without their entire arsenal. 



> Minato can use contract seal. Just saying. Not to mention he can redirect all of his attacks.


Contract seal requires that Obito be touched first, which against Minato required that he be rushed into a foot-race with the fastest man alive and furthermore required that he not have Kurama actually there attacking Minato and impeding his ability to touch Obito. 
------


> honestly did not intend this thread to be another "Minato Vs Obito" thread, but I kinda knew that
> how it will turn out to be.


All in good fun


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

yes if minato gets touched first obito could win. never denied such its how does obito touch minato

we saw once obito faced minato while attacking from the front he got hit twice in quick sucession and backed away


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

> =StickaStick;53952165]You've read the fight Hussain, many times I'm sure, so you should know this. But...
> 
> When Minato stated that it would come down to a split-second decision. That implies that if Obito could gotten his hand on Minato first he would have won. This corroborates Obito's assertion that talking was the only thing that stopped him from successfully warping Minato the first time.



that "implying" is contrary to the manga as we have seen Minato surviving that. Obito never stood a chance. It's just like saying "Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat"  When we know for a fact that both Naruto AND B survived that after a direct hit.  

It's obvious that it's only meant for tension to be honest. We have seen that Obito couldn't do that to Konan either, and so many other examples that makes your point invalid. 

Other example is, Minato's speed was enough to get in front of the Gedu-dama and teleport them before they can do any damage. Or when he and Tobirama trolled Obito before the Gedu-dama move.


and we know the Gedu-dama are faster than Obito's Kamui as well. If we were to take what you said seriously, then Obito wouldn't have had a problem to warp with Kamui just like how Minato did not have a problem.  


> A tribute to Minato's intelligence and quick thinking; however, it doesn't change the fact that Obito was hit because he was unsuspecting to Minato's intention/ability to use Level 2.


Minato has Level 3 as well btw.  

Also, we know for a fact that you can warp in and out of the dimensions. I.E Sasuke using his summoning jutsu to summon his falcon to Kaguya's space. As long as Minato having a Kunai outside (which he does) even IF Obito did it, he would not have won either. He simply bound to fail. 

Other examples would be Obito using his Kamui to open holes in Kaguya's space/time jutsu. We know from the Gaiden that Sasuke was able to do so as well
with his S/T jutsu. The only thing that it require is the fact that it takes more chakra than when the characters use their own. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Basically, Minato is Obito's worst nightmare. 



> And Obito didn't use Izanagi so they were both fighting without their entire arsenal.


Use Izanagi and lose Kamui? Not sure if that is the smartest thing to do. 


> Contract seal requires that Obito be touched first, which against Minato required that he be rushed into a foot-race with the fastest man alive and furthermore required that he not have Kurama actually there attacking Minato and impeding his ability to touch Obito.



Or he can touch Kurama? 
contract works both way. The summoner can summon the animal/Buju, just like how it works the other way.


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## Hachibi (Jul 8, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Entry confirms both Kamui eyes grant Susano'O, and with S-T capabilities.



Yep, Minato is fucked


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 8, 2015)

Minato will always beat Obito- his cognition speed is greater than Kamui speed, and FTG is the fastest technique in the verse. 

He outright proved this in their fight by warping out of a grab-Kamui while it was activated. He also proved it in the War Arc against Judara when he arrived at him, in SM with a Rasengan, after throwing a kunai before Kakashi could finish manifesting a Kamui warp hole he was opening prior to Minato throwing the kunai. 

Warping to, and away with Fired Truthseekers as they touch his body- before they could wound him- is also a tribute to his cognition speed. Because as we all know- it took both Kamui's (double the speed of one) for Obito to barely escape them (and they had arguably 70m of distance from where Judara fired them), that's how fast they are.


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> that "implying" is contrary to the manga as we have seen Minato surviving that.


Because Obito talked first.



> Obito never has a chance. It's just like saying "Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat"  When we know for a fact that both Naruto AND B survived that after a direct hit.


Problem: what Naruto said was later contradicted with new information, so his assertion that Ama would be a certain one-hit was, yes, no longer valid. However, there is nothing to contradict Obito's and Minato's assertions. In fact, Obito and Minato both made their declarations _after _Minato had just experienced the speed with which the warp is completed--so without any new variables added to the equation (Minato's FTG would still be nigh instantaneous, Obito's right-eye warping speed would still be the same) then there is literally no reason to believe they were mistaken.



> It's obvious that it's only meant for tension to be honest. We have seen that Obito couldn't do that to Konan either, and so many other examples that makes your point invalid.


Hussain, please 

Obito was unable to do it to Konan in time because she turned into her paper form which made her large and more cumbersome to warp:
Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat
Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat

If Minato could expand himself and self-detonate like that I don't think Obito would be able to warp him either 



> Other example is, Minato's speed was enough to get in front of the Gedu-dama and teleport them before they can do any damage. Or when he and Tobirama trolled Obito before the Gedu-dama move.
> 
> and we know the Gedu-dama are faster than Obito's Kamui as well. If we were to take what you said seriously, then Obito wouldn't have had a problem to warp with Kamui just like how Minato did not have a problem.


Konan says Obito is slower to warp himself as opposed to other people/things:

*Konan: you have to solidify before you can absorb yourself
and you always take longer to absorb someone or something else.*

Source: Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat

So Obito warping himself is irrelevant to him warping Minato in this case.



> Minato has Level 3 as well btw.


Well, if Minato uses that logically it would make his intention in attacking Obito's blindside that much more apparent.



> Also, we know for a fact that you can warp in and out of the dimensions. I.E Sasuke using his summoning jutsu to summon his falcon to Kaguya's space. As long as Minato having a Kunai outside (which he does) even IF Obito did it, he would not have won either. He simply bound to fail.


Let me preface this by stating that I'm open to it working either way but anyone who says it's conclusive based on the information we have is either a homer (whether that be for Obito _or _Minato) or doesn't understand how weight of evidence works.

With that said, I find your using Sasuke's hawk as the applicable example on how it would work lacking. Because first of all, summons of this nature seem to work outside of the confines of how _other _Kuchiyose work because summoner and the agreeing party to the contract are connected via a blood signing which appears to make no distinction between dimensions and how difficult they are to traverse. Contrast this to how Obito with a S-T jutsu needed an enormous amount of chakra to fuel Kamui's ability to connect to and traverse Kaguya's dimensions; or compare it to the Kage's Combined Kuchiyose no Jutsu that was needed to bring Naruto and Co. back to the "real"-realm. Furthermore, consider how FTG works via the user implementing a piece of their chakra in a marking and using that marking to connect to themself and teleport to it. But as we saw with Jiraiya and Animal Realm when the former brought the latter to the inside of the toad dimension the chakra link between Animal Realm and Nagato was effectively cut-off and, well, no longer existent. So how does it make any sense that Minato could connect himself to his marking (embedded with his chakra) *when no link exists*.

So basically, who the fuck really knows.

But ultimately I see this as highly irrelevant as I don't believe Obito would be able to grab Minato with any kind of certainty same as I don't see Minato tagging a more experience Obito with knowledge with any kind of certainty; thus it would come down to a battle of attrition which favor's Obito given his superior chakra reserves. No doubt you see it differently but that's how I view it.



> Use Izanagi and lose Kamui? Not sure if that is the smartest thing to do.


Wait, are you talking about MS Obito or DMS Obito? Because the former would have a fodder Sharingan to use Izanagi for.



> Or he can touch Kurama?
> contract works both way. The summoner can summon the animal/Buju, just like how it works the other way.


I'm pretty sure I read somewhere someone say that DB4 confirmed that the Contract Seal needed to be used on the summoner. If Turrin or someone else that works with the DB could confirm that would be great. 

But even then where do you get the idea that it could be used on the summoned entity from? Seems counter-intuitive to me.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 8, 2015)

> I'm pretty sure I read somewhere someone say that DB4 confirmed that the Contract Seal needed to be used on the summoner. If Turrin or someone else that works with the DB could confirm that would be great.
> 
> But even then where do you get the idea that it could be used on the summoned entity from? Seems counter-intuitive to me.


He doesn't have to use the Reverse Contract Seal, if he touches Kurama he can tag him with FTG then warp him somewhere else, or simply release the Genjutsu that is controlling him- at which point Kurama would no longer be a puppet for Obito- which is the same end as releasing the contract seal.


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He doesn't have to use the Reverse Contract Seal, if he touches Kurama he can tag him with FTG then warp him somewhere else, or simply release the Genjutsu that is controlling him- at which point Kurama would no longer be a puppet for Obito- which is the same end as releasing the contract seal.


That's fine but he was referring to breaking the contract by using the Contract Seal on the summoned entity.

And why would Minato tag and move Kurama when it would deplete his chakra significantly and Obito could summon him back immediately? And how would he release the genjutsu?


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## Kaiser (Jul 8, 2015)

Didn't Minato already kicked his ass?


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 8, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> That's fine but he was referring to breaking the contract by using the Contract Seal on the summoned entity.
> 
> And why would Minato tag and move Kurama when it would deplete his chakra and Obito can summon him back immediately? And how would he release the genjutsu?


How in the world would he have time to complete a summoning ritual against Minato, who throws kunai and arrives at entities before Kakashi can finish a Kamui?

Removing Kurama from the immediate battlefield means Obito is on his own- and no- he is not warping away to summon it elsewhere if he couldn't do so against Judara's Truthseekers from 70m out- Truthseekers that Minato already out performed.

You seem to be underrating Minato's speed, which is even more effective with a bunshin present.

There's also the issue that if Minato plants a seal on Kurama- he essentially is planting a seal on Obito- who's chakra is touching Kurama (summoning contract), which means the moment he solidifies to summon him again his body is slashed in half by Minato.

Even with Kurama, Obito can't beat him. In fact, the beast is more of a detriment to Obito, because the moment he touches it Obito is effectively marked.


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2015)

Minato vs. Obito would be nothing but mind games. The second time around Obito would probably be more unpredictable with his phasing. For example, he could reach in to grab Minato but stay intangible predicting the warp this time, and when Minato counter blitzed he'd pass through Obito and be open to counter attack. However, would Minato predict Obito to do that, anticipating him not to make the same mistake twice?

That kind of stuff. It isn't going to come to stamina. It'll come to who makes the first mistake, or in other words, who can outsmart the other. Minato should be favored in a contest like that because Hiraishin generally checks Kamui _and_ Kage Bunshin is one of the more useful tools against Obito. Minato's also probably the smarter fighter. 

All that said, Obito has a redo button in Izanagi to erase any mistakes he makes for five minutes, which can give him chances to try things that may have been too risky to try without immortality. It definitely could change the fight.

So in the end, I guess I think it could go either way.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 8, 2015)

He has to remove his mask to give the Sharingan light to activate Izanagi, to do that he needs to be tangible. 

You think he'll be in a situation against Minato that it'd be more logical to attempt that instead of simply going intangible?


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## thechickensage (Jul 8, 2015)

but minato is bestest and his puches are fast punches and kicks and slaps which are hard to fight, no block can block a minato kickpunch in the face.   

punch kick slap slap slap minato wins then dances, dances till out of chakra

unconscious obito sinks through the earth and ends up in the earth's core, bobbing around the center of gravity till kamui time limit reached then molten like nutella


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> How in the world would he have time to complete a summoning ritual against Minato, who throws kunai and arrives at entities before Kakashi can finish a Kamui?


I'm sorry, but no, Minato is not throwing a kunai at Obito and landing a blow all before Obito can complete a summoning ritual. This is doubly rediculous when you consider that Obito can move under ground and reappear in an area of the battlefield completely unaware to Minato.



> Removing Kurama from the immediate battlefield means Obito is on his own- and no- he is not warping away to summon it elsewhere if he couldn't do so against Judara's Truthseekers from 70m out- Truthseekers that Minato already out performed.


He doesn't need to warp away. 



> There's also the issue that if Minato plants a seal on Kurama- he essentially is planting a seal on Obito- who's chakra is touching Kurama (summoning contract), which means the moment he solidifies to summon him again his body is slashed in half by Minato.


Chances are Minato isn't tagging Kurama while under Obito's control so good luck with that. I'm not even sure what you're saying it entirely correct. Why didn't Minato actually do this in canon if so?



> Even with Kurama, Obito can't beat him. In fact, the beast is more of a detriment to Obito.


Yeah, wrong.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 8, 2015)

> I'm sorry, but no, Minato is not throwing a kunai at Obito's and landing a blow all before Obito can complete a summoning ritual. This is doubly rediculous when you consider that Obito can move under ground and reappear in an area of the battlefield completely unaware to Minato.


What do you mean? He threw a Kunai and arrived at Judara in SM with a Rasengan before Kakashi could complete a Kamui. 



> He doesn't need to warp away.


Then he'll be killed attempting the summoning. 




> Chances are Minato isn't tagging Kurama while under Obito's control so good luck with that. I'm not even sure what you're saying it entirely correct. Why didn't Minato actually do this in canon if so?


....?
He casually picked up Kushina, who was mere meters away from Kurama, and shunshind a considerable distance away from both Obito and Kurama while avoiding a drop-fist. 

Minato canonically appeared at Kurama's position a village-distance away and summoned a frog on his head in a panel. 



> Yeah, wrong.


Excellent point.


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> What do you mean? He threw a Kunai and arrived at Judara in SM with a Rasengan before Kakashi could complete a Kamui.


What do you mean what do I meam? It's like I said, he goes under ground and reappears in an area of the battlefield out of Minato's LoS. 



> Then he'll be killed attempting the summoning.


Or he, umm, phases when he notices Minato attacking him. You seem to be under the impression that Obito needs to complete the summoning first try or he's fuck or something. 



> ....?
> He casually picked up Kushina, who was mere meters away from Kurama, and shunshind a considerable distance away from both Obito and Kurama while avoiding a drop-fist.


What does this have to do with what I said?


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

> =StickaStick;53954712]Because Obito talked first.


And?
you are trying to make it sound as if Minato started to teleport when Obito was talking. Completely ignoring that Minato was listening as well. Minato teleported AFTER Obito started using Kamui NOT as obito was talking. So your point is pointless. 


> Problem: what Naruto said was later contradicted with new information, so his assertion that Ama would be a certain one-hit was, yes, no longer valid. However, *there is nothing to contradict** Obito's and Minato's assertions*. In fact, Obito and Minato both made their declarations _after _Minato had just experienced the speed with which the warp is completed--so without any new variables added to the equation (Minato's FTG would still be nigh instantaneous, Obito's right-eye warping speed would still be the same) then there is literally no reason to believe they were mistaken.



You are trying so hard to convince yourself with that. 
Yes there IS the fact that he failed. Are you telling me his Kamui got faster all of a sudden, or Minato's FTG got slower? 

Not only that scans, but even the scans in the war completely shit on those assumptions. lol 


> Hussain, please
> 
> Obito was unable to do it to Konan in time because she turned into her paper form which made her large and more cumbersome to warp:
> Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat
> ...



I don't know from where you came up with lollarge. Kakashi did not take much time to teleport the Hachibi, nor did Minato take time to teleport the Juubi's TBB. 

Konan says Obito is slower to warp himself as opposed to other people/things:


> *Konan: you have to solidify before you can absorb yourself
> and you always take longer to absorb someone or something else.*
> 
> Source: Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat
> ...



Good, if he takes longer, then that further against you, because even when he was trying to only teleport himself in the war, he was slower than Minato's FTG. Let alone when he is even slower. 


> Well, if Minato uses that logically it would make his intention in attacking Obito's blindside that much more apparent.


I don't know how, when that jutsu is a further a head level to create even more opening. And since it's level 3, logically, it should be even faster. 



> Let me preface this by stating that I'm open to it working either way but anyone who says it's conclusive based on the information we have is either a homer (whether that be for Obito _or _Minato) or doesn't understand how weight of evidence works.
> 
> With that said, I find your using Sasuke's hawk as the applicable example on how it would work lacking. Because first of all, summons of this nature seem to work outside of the confines of how _other _Kuchiyose work because summoner and the agreeing party to the contract are connected via a blood signing which appears to make no distinction between dimensions and how difficult they are to traverse. Contrast this to how Obito with a S-T jutsu needed an enormous amount of chakra to fuel Kamui's ability to connect to and traverse Kaguya's dimensions; or compare it to the Kage's Combined Kuchiyose no Jutsu that was needed to bring Naruto and Co. back to the "real"-realm. Furthermore, consider how FTG works via the user implementing a piece of their chakra in a marking and using that marking to connect to themself and teleport to it. But as we saw with Jiraiya and Animal Realm when the former brought the latter to the inside of the toad dimension the chakra link between Animal Realm and Nagato was effectively cut-off and, well, no longer existent. So how does it make any sense that Minato could connect himself to his marking (embedded with his chakra) *when no link exists*.



Whether Minato uses FTG Or his summoning BOTH ways are available to him. Also, Nagato's connection to the Animal path was not cut off obviously. Otherwise how would that path move without
Nagato's chakra?  Surely you don't think he return to have his own life, do you? 


> So basically, who the fuck really knows.
> 
> But ultimately I see this as highly irrelevant as I don't believe Obito would be able to grab Minato with any kind of certainty same as I don't see Minato tagging a more experience Obito with knowledge with any kind of certainty; thus it would come down to a battle of attrition which favor's Obito given his superior chakra reserves. No doubt you see it differently but that's how I view it.


You exaggerate this whole knowledge on Obito's part. Obito has knowledge about his other eye, and
yet Kakashi was able to fool him several times.

Obito Saw Kakashi being able to come back, and yet he still tried to absorb him again. He is kinda not the smartest guy out there. 


> Wait, are you talking about MS Obito or DMS Obito? Because the former would have a fodder Sharingan to use Izanagi for.



I don't know. I assumed you mean Obito that fought Minato in the manga. Usually people take him
as with one eye, so I assumed you do the same thing. 



> I'm pretty sure I read somewhere someone say that DB4 confirmed that the Contract Seal needed to be used on the summoner. If Turrin or someone else that works with the DB could confirm that would be great.


It does not say that. It only describes what happened in the manga 


> Keiyaku Fuuin (contract sealing)
> Ninjutsu, sealing jutsu
> Volume 52, page 155
> A sealing justu used by Minato to nullify a contract with the Kyuubi. In order to retrieve the stolen Kyuubi from Obito, he aimed his right hand at his opponent’s heart, and immediately completed the seal.






> But even then where do you get the idea that it could be used on the summoned entity from? Seems counter-intuitive to me.



As I said, the contract is from both sides. For example, Naruto made a contract with the frogs. 
However, the frogs also got a contract with him. Hence how we have seen them summon him at least 3 times. If the contract is to be destroyed from either said, there is no contract any more. 

Another example, Madara did destroy the Edo Contract from his end when itachi opened a chance to him, and as such Kabuto had no power over him anymore.

Just like the Koto overwritten it as will in itachi, and thus Kabuto couldn't control him.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 8, 2015)

> What do you mean what do I meam? It's like I said, he goes under ground and reappears in an area of the battlefield out of Minato's LoS.


Minato has access to SM and he's a sensor, and if his chakra is connected to Obito (touched Kurama with FTG) it's extremely likely he knows where Obito will be from that point forward. 

Then again, Minato can simply continue to attempt to teleport Obito to his position- and the moment he solidifies he'll arrive into Minato's Kunai. 



> Or he, umm, phases when he notices Minato attacking him. You seem to be under the impression that Obito needs to complete the summoning first try or he's fuck or something.


Judara didn't notice Minato until he appeared in front of him with a Rasengan, or so it looked that way. 

As soon as Minato touches Kurama Obito is fucked, he's tagged. From that point Minato's bunshin continues to attempt a blindside FTG until he's found solidified. 

Assuming he does slip away and summon him, Kurama will no longer be in the Genjutsu- and he'll attempt to kill Obito.


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And?
> you are trying to make it sound as if Minato started to teleport when Obito was talking. Completely ignoring that Minato was listening as well. Minato teleported AFTER Obito started using Kamui NOT as obito was talking. So your point is pointless.


Not pointless, as you're using your own interpretation to contradict how the manga (and thus Kishi) portrayed it.



> You are trying so hard to convince yourself with that.
> Yes there IS the fact that he failed. Are you telling me his Kamui got faster all of a sudden, or Minato's FTG got slower?
> 
> Not only that scans, but even the scans in the war completely shit on those assumptions. lol


> Says I'm trying to convince myself
> Blatantly ignores the manga canon





Honestly Hussain, one more troll post like this and I'm done.



> I don't know from where you came up with lollarge. Kakashi did not take much time to teleport the Hachibi, nor did Minato take time to teleport the Juubi's TBB.


So now you're comparing Obito's short-range Kamui to Kakashi's long-range Kamui and Minato's FTG, of which Minato's isn't even applicable because it works differently on a fundamental level. But if you want to scale Obito's right-eye warp to the left-eye warp by all means do so as that means Obito's can now warp other objects/people at a speed that was imperceptible to Obito mere feet away from him and I'll troll you with your own troll logic 



> Konan says Obito is slower to warp himself as opposed to other people/things:
> 
> Good, if he takes longer, then that further against you, because even when he was trying to only teleport himself in the war, he was slower than Minato's FTG. Let alone when he is even slower.


Yeah, what are you talking about.

Your whole contention was that because Obito was too slow to warp himself to avoid the Goudama that that somehow relates to how fast he warps other objects and people, which as I showed you is irrelevant because as an inverse he's *faster *warping other things and people, so I quite frankly don't know what you're on about here.

But if you want an example of Obito's teleportion speed when used on others, here's him saving Sasuke from Ohnoki's Jinton which he activated immediately after enclosing Sasuke in the cube:
Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat
Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat
Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat

Not too shabby huh 



> I don't know how, when that jutsu is a further a head level to create even more opening. And since it's level 3, logically, it should be even faster.


Idk about any of that but the LV3 would seem to indicate to me just a different way of attacking, like LV2. Minato's kunai is not any fast in LV2, no?



> Whether Minato uses FTG Or his summoning BOTH ways are available to him. Also, Nagato's connection to the Animal path was not cut off obviously. Otherwise how would that path move without
> Nagato's chakra?  Surely you don't think he return to have his own life, do you?


Animal Path still moved because the chakra rod was still "hot" so to speak, but afterwards we saw that he was lifeless; i.e., did not continue to attack Jiraiya.



> You exaggerate this whole knowledge on Obito's part. Obito has knowledge about his other eye, and
> yet Kakashi was able to fool him several times.


Hussain, you know how I know when you're either trolling or are reaching because you know you're lost the point you're trying to debate, when try to use two separate events that aren't comparable in their applicability to try and save face. Unless you really want me to explain the difference to you, I'd drop the point.



> Obito Saw Kakashi being able to come back, and yet he still tried to absorb him again. He is kinda not the smartest guy out there.


So now we're playing the Obito isn't the smartest guy card, for Minato's sake and your own please don't. I don't want to turn this into a hate thread but I can't help it if you force my hand 



> I don't know. I assumed you mean Obito that fought Minato in the manga. Usually people take him
> as with one eye, so I assumed you do the same thing.


Yeah, which is why it makes no sense that you would say he needs to use his Kamui eye for Izanagi when he has another one.



> It does not say that. It only describes what happened in the manga


I'd like to have someone a little less attached to the debate confirm that if you don't mind 



> As I said, the contract is from both sides. For example, Naruto made a contract with the frogs.
> However, the frogs also got a contract with him. Hence how we have seen them summon him at least 3 times. If the contract is to be destroyed from either said, there is no contract any more.
> 
> Another example, Madara did destroy the Edo Contract from his end when itachi opened a chance to him, and as such Kabuto had no power over him anymore.
> ...


Okay, fair enough.



DaVizWiz said:


> Minato has access to SM and he's a sensor, and if his chakra is connected to Obito (touched Kurama with FTG) it's extremely likely he knows where Obito will be from that point forward.
> 
> Then again, Minato can simply continue to attempt to teleport Obito to his position- and the moment he solidifies he'll arrive into Minato's Kunai.


Just no dude, just no. I repeat: Minato is *not *locating Obito's position if he reappears in a far away part of the battlefield and throwing a kunai at him and landing a blow all before Obito can perform a simple summoning ritual. 

Fuck, sensor or not Obito's chakra presence will be unnoticeable until the very point where his hand touches the ground and he needs to turn tangible. So please. 



> Judara didn't notice Minato until he appeared in front of him with a Rasengan, or so it looked that way.


Sure, and then he got his ass kicked IIRC.



> As soon as Minato touches Kurama Obito is fucked, he's tagged. From that point Minato's bunshin continues to attempt a blindside FTG until he's found solidified.


Like I said, chances are Minato doesn't tag Kurama while under Obito's control. And even if he does Obito breaks the contract himself and Minato is still dealing with two threats at once (Obito is as well but it would be easier for him to evade Kurama's attack because of his intangibility and there is even the potential to put him into the genjutsu again if he so chooses to attempt to).  



> Assuming he does slip away and summon him, Kurama will no longer be in the Genjutsu- and he'll attempt to kill Obito.


See my point above about that. And btw, the mere fact that Minato had to teleport Kurama away and expand a significant amount of chakra makes Obito's chances of winning a battle of attrition that more likely, so win-win.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 8, 2015)

> Just no dude, just no. I repeat: Minato is not locating Obito's position if he reappears in a far away part of the battlefield and throwing a kunai at him and landing a blow all before Obito can perform a simple summoning ritual.


Yes, if he does that.

Doesn't matter though, he can actively attempt to teleport Obito to his position, thus the moment he solidifies to summon Kurama far-off he'll be taken back to Minato and killed. 



> Fuck, sensor or not Obito's chakra presence will be unnoticeable until the very point where his hand touches the ground and he needs to turn tangible. So please.


He needs to draw blood to summon Kurama, which means he has to solidify before touching the ground. Also, do you actually think he'll stay intangible until the very point his finger touches the ground? That sounds a bit paranoid. 



> Like I said, chances are Minato doesn't tag Kurama while under Obito's control. And even if he does Obito breaks the contract himself and Minato is still dealing with two threats at once (Obito is as well but it would be easier for him to evade Kurama's attack because of his intangibility and there is even the potential to put him into the genjutsu again if he so chooses to attempt to).


Chances are he does, he's faster than both of them and he stole his wife away from them from a considerable distance out while being watched the entire time. 

Kurama hates both of them, it'd be an equal effort for them both. I don't know how it suits Obito more to be attacked by Kurama then it does Minato- they both have S/T techniques to avoid him and Minato already has Kurama tagged so he essentially has no chance of hitting him. 



> See my point above about that. And btw, the mere fact that Minato had to teleport Kurama away and expand a significant amount of chakra makes Obito's chances of winning a battle of attrition that more likely, so win-win.


Minato has a considerable chakra reserve, that won't really faze him.


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## Turrin (Jul 9, 2015)

@Hussain
I don't bother discussing shit with people who are bias because I don't think anything will be accomplished, k, thanx by.


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## StickaStick (Jul 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Doesn't matter though, he can actively attempt to teleport Obito to his position, thus the moment he solidifies to summon Kurama far-off he'll be taken back to Minato and killed.
> 
> He needs to draw blood to summon Kurama, which means he has to solidify before touching the ground. Also, do you actually think he'll stay intangible until the very point his finger touches the ground? That sounds a bit paranoid.


Solid point about the blood part, although Minato still isn't clearing the distance in time regardless.

I don't know about paranoid, more showing caution against an opponent who is incredibly fast. And Obito typically stays phased until the last second away so it's not OoC by any stretch. 



> Chances are he does, he's faster than both of them and he stole his wife away from them from a considerable distance out while being watched the entire time.


There's a reason Minato needed to pin Kurama down with Bunta before he could teleport him away. Under Obito's control Kurama uses chakra roars or whatever and impedes Minato ability to even close the gap.  



> Kurama hates both of them, it'd be an equal effort for them both. I don't know how it suits Obito more to be attacked by Kurama then it does Minato- they both have S/T techniques to avoid him and Minato has a massive tower of a bijuu to teleport around (since Kurama would be tagged)


Minato has to worry about AoE, which is a concern even if he jumps around his marked kunai, while Obito just lolphases.  



> Minato has a considerable chakra reserve, that won't really faze him.


Great, but so does Obito, and arguably more so because of Hashirama cells. So any significant hit to his reserves will be a notable one.

But honesty Viz, if you're contention is that Kurama is a hindrance to Obito, while I completely disagree, then by all means remove him from the equation because I don't believe that ultimately changes the end-result so there's no need to keep going back and forth on this.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

Obito's Kamui phase got a lot faster since his fight with Minato. KCM Naruto has better feats than Minato and dodged Raikage Ei's fastest punch using a Shunshin, while Minato had to rely on FTG.

Now, remember how Rinnegan Obito fought base Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto, someone who is faster than base Minato, at the same time without getting hit?

Yeah, that's a manga facts that Obito's Kamui speed became a lot faster since his young times.

And a fight between adult Obito and base Minato will be different. Adult Obito is much faster, with faster Kamui phase than before. If Minato had troubles with young teenager Obito, he will die in a fight with much improved adult version.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 9, 2015)

> Solid point about the blood part, although Minato still isn't clearing the distance in time regardless.


FTG is nigh-instantaneous, if Kurama is already tagged Obito will be teleported to Minato or vice versa the moment he solidifies and his throat will be severed. 



> I don't know about paranoid, more showing caution against an opponent who is incredibly fast. And Obito typically stays phased until the last second away so it's not OoC by any stretch.


If he clears enough distance and is confident Minato isn't around him, why would he be so cautious as to not take an extra second while solidified? 

There's generally no evidence suggesting he stays intangible until the last second- we literally don't know when he's intangible until someone/something goes through him. 

We saw Minato teleport to him a moment after he slammed him with a Rasengan and plant a reverse summoning seal- he literally wasn't even cautious enough to stay intangible after his arm and back were crushed with Minato standing 10m from him. 

If anything, Obito remains tangible until the moment he is forced to use Kamui. 



> There's a reason Minato needed to pin Kurama down with Bunta before he could teleport him away. Under Obito's control Kurama uses chakra roars or whatever and impedes Minato ability to even close the gap.


Minato already closed the gap twice against Kurama, you are literally working against canon at this point. 



> Minato has to worry about AoE, which is a concern even if he jumps around his marked kunai, while Obito just lolphases.


If Minato has Kurama tagged, he can warp behind him, above him, at his side or on his eyeball at any point to avoid an AoE attack. 



> Great, but so does Obito, and arguably more so because of Hashirama cells. So any significant hit to his reserves will be a notable one.


Notable yes- enough to swing the battle? No- Minato still kills him. 



> But honesty Viz, if you're contention is that Kurama is a hindrance to Obito, while I completely disagree, then by all means remove him from the equation because I don't believe that ultimately changes the end-result so there's no need to keep going back and forth on this.


Assuming he does tag Kurama, then yes he hinders Obito's chances greatly.

The end result is Minato killing Obito, his War-arc feats with FTG put him on a speed level that Obito can't handle and that's just the bottom line.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Minato will always beat Obito- his cognition speed is greater than Kamui speed, and FTG is the fastest technique in the verse.
> 
> He outright proved this in their fight by warping out of a grab-Kamui while it was activated. He also proved it in the War Arc against Judara when he arrived at him, in SM with a Rasengan, after throwing a kunai before Kakashi could finish manifesting a Kamui warp hole he was opening prior to Minato throwing the kunai.
> 
> Warping to, and away with Fired Truthseekers as they touch his body- before they could wound him- is also a tribute to his cognition speed. Because as we all know- it took both Kamui's (double the speed of one) for Obito to barely escape them (and they had arguably 70m of distance from where Judara fired them), that's how fast they are.



KCM Naruto had beter feats than base Minato and could dodge Raikage Ei's fastest punch with Shunshin only, when Minato had to rely on FTG. So it is safe to say KCM Naruto >>> base Minato in terms of speed.

Adult Obito fought base Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto at the same time, without getting hit.

So i want you to comment that. Why do you think Minato will always beat Obito, despite of young slower teenager Obito almost killing him and reacting to him more than once? Adult Obito is faster and his Kamui phase is a lot faster than that of his younger counterpart.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 9, 2015)

In terms of shunshin speed- sure.

In terms of overall speed- no. FTG is instantaneous (the fastest possible speed) over any distance and Minato's cognition (mental reactions) is easily on KCM Naruto's level, which is why *he* was the one who saved Naruto & Sasuke against Jubito's palm Goudama.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> In terms of shunshin speed- sure.
> 
> In terms of overall speed- no. FTG is instantaneous (the fastest possible speed) over any distance and Minato's cognition (mental reactions) is easily on KCM Naruto's level, which is why *he* was the one who saved Naruto & Sasuke against Jubito's palm Goudama.



That was KCM Edo Minato. His overall speed (reaction speed included) was amped beyond his limits thanks to KCM. We are talking about base alive Minato, i believe.

KCM Naruto fought with a faster Ei. Ei improved throughout those 17 years. Not only his Raiton was thicker, not only he had tailed beast level chakra, which his younger counterpart didnt have, but he also was capable of dominating adult Bee with his V1, when young Bee could react to Minato and young Ei's top speed and Minato when he appeared behind him.

Rinnegan Obito is, in terms of overall speed, the same MS Obito from Shippuden, since Rinnegan does not give any kind of speed boost, or Sharingan's precognition. And he fought with 3 speedsters, one of them being KCM Naruto, at the same time without getting hit. 

It is pretty much obvious that adult prime Obito is >>>>>>> his younger self who fought Minato. Adult Obito is faster, his Kamui phase is a lot faster. He is on a different level. So, if young Obito could react to Minato multiple times and almost killed him by sucking in Kamui dimension, imagine what adult prime Obito could do to base Minato.


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## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

where are the scans that obito kamui got faster. because if it hasnt minato beats him 

its odd people mention experience advantage and feinting minato who  can use clones, can swap with the clones at speeds juubito cant do shit against and can use alot more kunai 

give both knowledge and obito will always loose. he has the slower technique, can feint less effectively and isnt a sensor so attacks from the rear can still land 

minato got the faster technique, is a sensor and can use clones, who also have their marks, can be marked, can teleport minato out of harms way etc

its entirely impossible with obito moveset to beat minato


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 9, 2015)

> That was KCM Edo Minato. His overall speed (reaction speed included) was amped beyond his limits thanks to KCM. We are talking about base alive Minato, i believe.


You're right about that, I forgot.

I can of course cite the fact he warped Truthseekers away without being wounded or the fact he threw a kunai, entered SM, appeared at Judara with a Rasengan before Kakashi could finish his Kamui. 



> KCM Naruto fought with a faster Ei. Ei improved throughout those 17 years. Not only his Raiton was thicker, not only he had tailed beast level chakra, which his younger counterpart didnt have, but he also was capable of dominating adult Bee with his V1, when young Bee could react to Minato and young Ei's top speed and Minato when he appeared behind him.


I doubt he improved much in speed, perhaps in technique. 

You have virtually no evidence suggesting he was slower or that he didn't have those reserves as a younger man. 



> Rinnegan Obito is, in terms of overall speed, the same MS Obito from Shippuden, since Rinnegan does not give any kind of speed boost, or Sharingan's precognition. And he fought with 3 speedsters, one of them being KCM Naruto, at the same time without getting hit.


KCM Naruto was weakened- this was obvious when he couldn't react to V2 Jins who Kakashi was found pressuring with his shunshin. 



> It is pretty much obvious that adult prime Obito is >>>>>>> his younger self who fought Minato. Adult Obito is faster, his Kamui phase is a lot faster. He is on a different level. So, if young Obito could react to Minato multiple times and almost killed him by sucking in Kamui dimension, imagine what adult prime Obito could do to base Minato.


There are many people who think Obito's shunshin and Kamui speed didn't improve at all- only his tactics and overall skill.

I actually don't see how the speed of an MS technique improves at all unless you're talking about his mental cognition speed to activate it, and even then you have no evidence.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

> where are the scans that obito kamui got faster. because if it hasnt minato beats him



Obito's Kamui phase is automatic. Young Obito's Kamui wasnt fast enough to phase before Minato hit his back with Rasengan. Adult Obito fought base Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto, a speedster faster than Minato, at the same time, without getting hit. It is pretty much obvious that adult Obito >>>>>>>>>>>> his younger counterpart who faced Minato. Adult Obito's Kamui phase got faster and his overall speed got faster. 

That is logical.



> its odd people mention experience advantage and feinting minato who can use clones, can swap with the clones at speeds juubito cant do shit against and can use alot more kunai



LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, Juubito was far above base Minato's speed. He was even faster than Bijuu Mode Minato. Juubito chopped off KCM Minato's arm, kicked him while being instable and later could react to a combined attack from Bijuu Mode Naruto and Bijuu Mode Minato.

Plus, it is pretty much unlogical to use KCM Minato's feats in order to prove that base Minato was fast. KCM boosts physical stats far beyond shinobi's limits. Minato was drasticlaly *amped* by KCM. 



> give both knowledge and obito will always loose. he has the slower technique, can feint less effectively and isnt a sensor so attacks from the rear can still land



Young teenager Obito reacted to Minato multiple times and almost killed him. Adult Obito can do even better. Much better, no matter is Minato with knowledge on his ability, or without knowledge.

Plus, adult Obito's Kamui phase is faster than Minato's teleportation. adult Obito can easily phase through any of base Minato's attacks.



> minato got the faster technique, is a sensor and can use clones, who also have their marks, can be marked, can teleport minato out of harms way etc



Minato cant hit adult obito because he will always phase through. And Minato's mental reactions are <<<<<<< those of adult Obito.



> its entirely impossible with obito moveset to beat minato



Adult Obito is a veyr good counter for Minato. Phases through anything in Minato's arsenal, has excellent stamina and speed. Young Obito almost killed Minato and reacted to him more than once. Imagine what adult, much faster vertion can do to Minato.


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## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Obito's Kamui phase is automatic. Young Obito's Kamui wasnt fast enough to phase before Minato hit his back with Rasengan. Adult Obito fought base Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto, a speedster faster than Minato, at the same time, without getting hit. It is pretty much obvious that adult Obito >>>>>>>>>>>> his younger counterpart who faced Minato. Adult Obito's Kamui phase got faster and his overall speed got faster.
> 
> That is logical.



so in short no scans. ok 



> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, Juubito was far above base Minato's speed. He was even faster than Bijuu Mode Minato. Juubito chopped off KCM Minato's arm, kicked him while being instable and later could react to a combined attack from Bijuu Mode Naruto and Bijuu Mode Minato.



yet didnt react to hirashin swap. which is what i said. nice try buddy 



> Plus, it is pretty much unlogical to use KCM Minato's feats in order to prove that base Minato was fast. KCM boosts physical stats far beyond shinobi's limits. Minato was drasticlaly *amped* by KCM.



was referring to hirashin swap which juubito didnt do shit against. nice try. considering juubito reactions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>obito reactions by far more of a significant margin than 50% of kyuubi would give anyone



> Young teenager Obito reacted to Minato multiple times and almost killed him. Adult Obito can do even better. Much better, no matter is Minato with knowledge on his ability, or without knowledge.



scans of obito almost killing him. all i got is obito eatign a rasengan, getting stabbed and fleeing

there is also him attacking minato from behind and failing to kamui him 

so where is this scan of minato almost dying 



> Plus, adult Obito's Kamui phase is faster than Minato's teleportation. adult Obito can easily phase through any of base Minato's attacks.



certainly it is. however poor obito needs to be tangible to attack. minato only need attack when he is attacking, thats made simple by having 30 kunai, and clones on the battlefield 



> Minato cant hit adult obito because he will always phase through. And Minato's mental reactions are <<<<<<< those of adult Obito.



and obito cant grab him. so obito is free to stay intagible if he wants. i dont see how that helps him win



> Adult Obito is a veyr good counter for Minato. Phases through anything in Minato's arsenal, has excellent stamina and speed. Young Obito almost killed Minato and reacted to him more than once. Imagine what adult, much faster vertion can do to Minato.



i love how u mention obito phasing everytime

how does that help him beat minato. unless he attacks he cant win. you get that right


All minato needs to do, is use clones, and kunai and obito is screwed. he wont know which minato to target 

if he attempts to wrap either. it wont matter hirashin swap and he fails. or hirashin minato being wrapped , either the clone does it. since the clone is on the sidelines the clone will see obito coming 

pretty much what bee did against minato. minato clone can do against obito 

but hey when u got them scans of obito kamui speed improvign you let me know yh


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 9, 2015)

> Obito's Kamui phase is automatic. Young Obito's Kamui wasnt fast enough to phase before Minato hit his back with Rasengan. Adult Obito fought base Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto, a speedster faster than Minato, at the same time, without getting hit. It is pretty much obvious that adult Obito >>>>>>>>>>>> his younger counterpart who faced Minato. Adult Obito's Kamui phase got faster and his overall speed got faster.


No it is not automatic, if it were automatic he wouldn't have been blitzed by Minato or headbutted by KCM Naruto.

Sure, Rinnegan Obito was superior to 13 year old MS Obito, but that's because of Rinnegan- not because of the speed of his Kamui. 



> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, Juubito was far above base Minato's speed. He was even faster than Bijuu Mode Minato. Juubito chopped off KCM Minato's arm, kicked him while being instable and later could react to a combined attack from Bijuu Mode Naruto and Bijuu Mode Minato.


Jubito's shunshin speed is obviously faster, I'm not sure the argument you're trying to make. 

Base Minato's various feats in the Judara battle were too impressive to discount, he did grow in speed based on those feats. 



> Plus, it is pretty much unlogical to use KCM Minato's feats in order to prove that base Minato was fast. KCM boosts physical stats far beyond shinobi's limits. Minato was drasticlaly *amped* by KCM.


I provided two more feats that suggest he is easily on the level of a fresh KCM Naruto. 
1. Minato warped to, and away with multiple Truthseekers without being wounded upon touching him
2. Minato threw a kunai, entered SM, manifested a Rasengan and appeared at Judara before Kakashi could complete his Kamui 



> Young teenager Obito reacted to Minato multiple times and almost killed him. Adult Obito can do even better. Much better, no matter is Minato with knowledge on his ability, or without knowledge.


Unless you're talking about Rinnegan Obito I'd argue otherwise. MS Obito was owned by Minato rather easily, he was touched twice by Minato who was armed with only a kunai and no knowledge in a matter of a minute of contest. Minato didn't use any summons or bunshin and managed to crush his back without a single wound. 



> Plus, adult Obito's Kamui phase is faster than Minato's teleportation. adult Obito can easily phase through any of base Minato's attacks.


It's not faster than his teleportation, FTG is instantaneous by definition- nothing is faster than an FTG once it's been activated. 



> Minato cant hit adult obito because he will always phase through. And Minato's mental reactions are <<<<<<< those of adult Obito.


Minato's mental reactions are equal if not greater than Adult Obito's. 



> Adult Obito is a veyr good counter for Minato. Phases through anything in Minato's arsenal, has excellent stamina and speed. Young Obito almost killed Minato and reacted to him more than once. Imagine what adult, much faster vertion can do to Minato.


I'd argue the opposite, Adult Minato is a full arsenal counter to Adult Obito and his head would roll before he managed to even wound Minato.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

> I can of course cite the fact he warped Truthseekers away without being wounded or the fact he threw a kunai, entered SM, appeared at Judara with a Rasengan before Kakashi could finish his Kamui.



Kamui speed is different and depends on user's state. Kakashi isnt an Uchiha and cant use Obito's aye to a full extent, plus, he was exhausted. When Obito teleported Naruto to his Kamui dimension, he himself admitted that Kamui sucking was slow due to his hastyness and unconsciousness.

Plus, lets be honest - Truthseekers are not that fast. Multiple characters could react to them, including Rock Lee and Kakashi. 



> I doubt he improved much in speed, perhaps in technique.
> 
> You have virtually no evidence suggesting he was slower or that he didn't have those reserves as a younger man.



Judging from his performance against Bee while using V1, thicker Raiton and tailed beast level chakra, which younger Ei didnt have, since there is no proof he did - yes, he became faster. His Shunshin and striking speed became faster. 

Explain to me, why Minato, a sensor, didnt have any response to Ei's reserves, while Karin was terrified from Raikage Ei's chakra reserves? And why Raikage Ei's Raiton was thicker?



> KCM Naruto was weakened- this was obvious when he couldn't react to V2 Jins who Kakashi was found pressuring with his shunshin.



At that time, KCM Naruto had active clones, as i remember. The situation was different when KCM Naruto, base Gai and Kakashi fought Obito at the same time and couldnt hit him.



> There are many people who think Obito's shunshin and Kamui speed didn't improve at all- only his tactics and overall skill.
> 
> I actually don't see how the speed of an MS technique improves at all unless you're talking about his mental cognition speed to activate it, and even then you have no evidence.



He would have been hit aither by base Gai, or Kakashi, or KCM Naruto if his Kamui speed was the same. He was hit by Minato and here you have 3 high-level speedsters, one of which is faster than Minato. 

Plus, MS techniques can be improved. Obito couldnt touch Rin when he achieved MS, but later he could grab people whenever he wanted to and phase at any time.

And the fight with gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto proves he improved overall.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

> so in short no scans. ok



I dont need them when i can prove my point using manga facts and logic.



> yet didnt react to hirashin swap. which is what i said. nice try buddy



The Hiraishin is instantaneous. But you need good mental reactions in order to use it just in time. *That Minato was amped by KCM. *



> was referring to hirashin swap which juubito didnt do shit against. nice try. considering juubito reactions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>obito reactions by far more of a significant margin than 50% of kyuubi would give anyone



That Hiraishin swap was used by KCM Minato, who's mental reactions and overall speed are far above those of his base counterpart. Plus, he in fact reacted to Gudoudama's transformation into those deadly nails, not Juubito's movement. 



> scans of obito almost killing him. all i got is obito eatign a rasengan, getting stabbed and fleeing
> 
> there is also him attacking minato from behind and failing to kamui him
> 
> so where is this scan of minato almost dying



Obito almost sucked him in Kamui dimension. He almost killed him. I can provide scans of that.



Minato also couldnt dodge Obito's attempt to grab his arm. 



Young Obito gave lots of trouble to Minato in that fight.



> certainly it is. however poor obito needs to be tangible to attack. minato only need attack when he is attacking, thats made simple by having 30 kunai, and clones on the battlefield



I made a mistake - kamui is not faster than Hiraishin, because Hiraishin is an instant technique. 

But nevertheless, adult Obito can phase through anything Minato has in his arsenal. Adult obito's Kamui phase is much faster than that of his younger counterpart. And his reaction speed is better.



> and obito cant grab him. so obito is free to stay intagible if he wants. i dont see how that helps him win



Young Obito actually did and Minato couldnt do anything about that. He couldnt react to obito grabbing his hand.

If young Obito could grab him, adult Obito for sure can.



> i love how u mention obito phasing everytime
> 
> how does that help him beat minato. unless he attacks he cant win. you get that right
> 
> ...



He can grab Minato if he wants. Young Obito did that, adult one can do the same, but much easier. 

Obito can beat his clones no problem. His stamina is excellent and Minato doesnt have speed good enough to attack him non-stop for 5 minutes. Eventually, Obito can find a real one. or attack Minato before he can make any clones.

I proved adult Obito's Kamui was faster. I dont think i have to give any scans. But if you want, i can give you the scans where adult obito fights base Gai, kakashi and KCM naruto at the same time.

By the way, i can use that trick "give me the scans or get lost" to any of your arguements.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

> No it is not automatic, if it were automatic he wouldn't have been blitzed by Minato or headbutted by KCM Naruto.
> 
> Sure, Rinnegan Obito was superior to 13 year old MS Obito, but that's because of Rinnegan- not because of the speed of his Kamui.



Hussain proved that already. And the fact he was defeated by Minato (no way he was blitzed) proves nothing, since the automatic Kamui was not fast enough to automatically make Obito intangible there. Its not an instant technique, as Hiraishin, you know.

The same is with KCM Naruto headbutting him. Even automatical reaction wasnt fast enough. Imagine a some sort of devise that automatically detects and crushes everything that gets inside of it. If you are fast enough, you can put your hand there and put it out before it is crushed.

The same thing is here.

And because of his improved Kamui phase speed.



> Jubito's shunshin speed is obviously faster, I'm not sure the argument you're trying to make.
> 
> Base Minato's various feats in the Judara battle were too impressive to discount, he did grow in speed based on those feats.



Such as? 



> I provided two more feats that suggest he is easily on the level of a fresh KCM Naruto.
> 1. Minato warped to, and away with multiple Truthseekers without being wounded upon touching him
> 2. Minato threw a kunai, entered SM, manifested a Rasengan and appeared at Judara before Kakashi could complete his Kamui



Truthseekers were reacted to by Kakashi, Rock Lee, EMS Sasuke, Tobirama's clone and some others. The Truthseekers are not super-fast. Obito, although with tailed beast chakra and SM chakra could block them while being busy transporting Naruto to another dimension.

And KCM Naruto  performed much better, against faster Ei.

Prove that Kakashi's long-range Kamui was super-fast. He was exhausted and he is not an Uchiha.



> Unless you're talking about Rinnegan Obito I'd argue otherwise. MS Obito was owned by Minato rather easily, he was touched twice by Minato who was armed with only a kunai and no knowledge in a matter of a minute of contest. Minato didn't use any summons or bunshin and managed to crush his back without a single wound.



Young MS Obito <<<<<<<<<< adult prime MS Obito. 



> It's not faster than his teleportation, FTG is instantaneous by definition- nothing is faster than an FTG once it's been activated.



Yeah, i did a mistake there. Hiraishin is instant, so Kamui cant be faster. But adult Obito can phase through any of Minato's attacks.



> Minato's mental reactions are equal if not greater than Adult Obito's.



Base Minato couldnt dodge young Obito's attempt to grab his arm and couldnt teleport before being in young Obito's chains.

Adult Obito fought base Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto, someone faster than Minato, at the same time, without getting hit. 



> I'd argue the opposite, Adult Minato is a full arsenal counter to Adult Obito and his head would roll before he managed to even wound Minato.



I dont think so. And i explained why up there.


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## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

lol so obito grabbed minato with chains then what happened? 

that's right he ate a rasengan and got stabbed. 

that's against a no knowledge minato, with no clones and 1 kunai 

this adult MS obito really needs some scans to prove it. EVERY single improvement in the manga that's worth nothing has been mentioned by kishi

this wasn't hence no improvement to speak of 

gaiden kakashi to part 1 kakashi. improvement mentioned
part 1 to part 2 improvement mentioned

by war arc improvement very clearly displayed and mentioned 

what I would love to know is how on earth KCM Naruto, gai, and kakashi tag young obito with any more ease than war arc version 

certainly speed isn't all that's needed to tag obito, or juubito a faaar faster opponent would have destroyed a hachibi+shukaku amped obito point blank instead he was able to phase through

from time kishi has already stated a sharingan user can be hit if you are out of their line of sight. what minato can do is instantly be out of obito LOS everytime and all the time 

the more kunai there are, the more likely he is to be out of obito LOS

think about obito standing in the middle of a field of 30 kunai. how many kunai do u think obito will be able to see?

I need scans of young obito loosing to KCM Naruto team. there is nothing war arc obito showed that young obito couldn't have easily done 

the entire team never managed to get out of obito LOS. therefore they couldn't possibly hit obito 

It doesn't matter how fast you are going if obito can see u and react. you will never hit him with straight speed. never


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2015)

Dude..

When he* activates *that ability, his body parts will be automatically send to another dimension when they come in contact with anything.
But you know he has to turn that ability off sometimes to be able to come in contact with things.

So yes, the ability is autonomous when activated.
He turned it off when he was about to warp Minato, and didn't have a chance to turn it back on before Minato bamflashed him.


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## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

so grimm is there any reason to say obito kamui improved. cuz like kishi always mentions such things 
always 

yet doesn't this time


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2015)

I think his timing improved more than anything, not the jutsu itself. His Kamui usage seemed more precise and tactical against Fu & Torune and against Naruto & Co.


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## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think his timing improved more than anything, not the jutsu itself. His Kamui usage seemed more precise and tactical against Fu & Torune and against Naruto & Co.



explain please
cuz fuu and torune were also much slower than anything minato can do. could have made it easier for him to react. so its not his timing improved but maybe facing slower more predictable enemies 

their numbers wont matter if they are too slow to get in his blindside the instant he attacks

No one in team naruto was capable of that. Team Fuu obviously as well 

Naruto can shunshin as fast as he wants with all the chakra in the world he still cant instantly appear behind obito when obito is about to attack him 

thats what minato did and thats why he hit him 

if obito touches minato and wraps him he wins. if minato touches obito he wins..easier to just touch


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

> lol so obito grabbed minato with chains then what happened?



Those chains could be a part of some sort of jutsu. Minato is not an idiot. So it would have been wise to teleport before being in those chains. But Minato didnt. He couldnt react fast enough to teleport out of those chains.



> that's right he ate a rasengan and got stabbed.



Nevertheless, Obito reacted to Minato before that, grabbed his hand and almost sucked him into Kamui dimension. 



> that's against a no knowledge minato, with no clones and 1 kunai



It doesnt matter. Minato's reaction speed and movement speed wasnt good enough to prevent Obito from grabbing his hand. Minato's reaction speed wasnt good enough to teleport before being in Obito's chains.

And all of this is against young teenager Obito, who is <<<<<< adult Obito.



> this adult MS obito really needs some scans to prove it. EVERY single improvement in the manga that's worth nothing has been mentioned by kishi



Young Obito got tagged by Minato from behind. Adult Obito fought base Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto, someone who has duplicated Minato's feat of outpacing Ei, at the same time without getting hit even once for a long time period. And you are saying that Obito stayed the same, because Kishi never outright stated Obito improved?

You are trolling me. An obvious trolling attemp. 



> this wasn't hence no improvement to speak of



There is an improvement. It is logical, judging from adult Obito's performances against 3 speedsters at once, one of which is actually faster than base Minato.



> gaiden kakashi to part 1 kakashi. improvement mentioned
> part 1 to part 2 improvement mentioned
> 
> by war arc improvement very clearly displayed and mentioned
> ...



How on earth? Well, maybe because KCM Naruto is a speedster faster than Minato, plus there are another 2 speedsters - Kakashi and Gai. 

Also, i've noticed that you are asking me to provide scans when you havent provided any scan. So, provide scans with "improvement" statements. 



> certainly speed isn't all that's needed to tag obito, or juubito a faaar faster opponent would have destroyed a hachibi+shukaku amped obito point blank instead he was able to phase through
> 
> from time kishi has already stated a sharingan user can be hit if you are out of their line of sight. what minato can do is instantly be out of obito LOS everytime and all the time
> 
> the more kunai there are, the more likely he is to be out of obito LOS



Because he was already intangible up to that moment.

During Obito's fight with KCM Naruto, Gai and Kakashi, they were beyond his line of sight numerous times, but couldnt hit him. And Obito, thanks to Hashirama's DNA, is a sensor.



> think about obito standing in the middle of a field of 30 kunai. how many kunai do u think obito will be able to see?



I think adult Obito will be able to phase through any Minato's attacks. 



> I need scans of young obito loosing to KCM Naruto team. there is nothing war arc obito showed that young obito couldn't have easily done



Base Minato doesnt have feats to put him above KCM Naruto. Adult Obito fought Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto at once. He easily evaded attacks of 3 speedsters, one of whom has better feats than Minato and possesses much faster Shunshin. Young Obito was hit by Minato. 

It is clear as day that adult Obito is >>>>>>> young Obito. It is logical and very, very obvious.



> the entire team never managed to get out of obito LOS. therefore they couldn't possibly hit obito



Have you read the manga chapter where Kakashi, Gai and KCM Naruto fought Obito? It seems you either forgot, or havent read that chapter. 



> It doesn't matter how fast you are going if obito can see u and react. you will never hit him with straight speed. never



Wrong. Minato did that. At that time, Obito's reaction speed wasnt good enough to turn on his intangibility after materialising in order to phase through Minato's attack.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude..
> 
> When he* activates *that ability, his body parts will be automatically send to another dimension when they come in contact with anything.
> But you know he has to turn that ability off sometimes to be able to come in contact with things.
> ...



Well, that means adult Obito's reaction speed is far above that of his younger counterpart.


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## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

or they could just be chains with no chakra in them. minato being a sensor would know there is no chakra in them
so jumping out of chains after being touched by them big whoop

straw grasping at its best though


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 9, 2015)

> Hussain proved that already. And the fact he was defeated by Minato (no way he was blitzed) proves nothing, since the automatic Kamui was not fast enough to automatically make Obito intangible there. Its not an instant technique, as Hiraishin, you know.


"Automatic" generally means it works without the invoking of human thought, Kamui is 100% driven by the thought of Obito. 



> The same is with KCM Naruto headbutting him. Even automatical reaction wasnt fast enough. Imagine a some sort of devise that automatically detects and crushes everything that gets inside of it. If you are fast enough, you can put your hand there and put it out before it is crushed.


Again, automatic means it works without human intervention, the jutsu doesn't work unless Obito activates the eye. 



> And because of his improved Kamui phase speed.


You have no evidence suggesting Kamui improved in speed- it's illogical to assume an MS technique increases in speed at any point. 

Do you think Amaterasu improves in speed through training and experience?

No, it's as fast in it's first use as it's last use. 



> Truthseekers were reacted to by Kakashi, Rock Lee, EMS Sasuke, Tobirama's clone and some others. The Truthseekers are not super-fast. Obito, although with tailed beast chakra and SM chakra could block them while being busy transporting Naruto to another dimension.


They were reacted to by Kakashi from 70m out, who did not have the physical speed to simply duct a foot below the Truthseeker. It required both Kamuis used in conjunction to warp Obito away from them- and he barely made it. Can you think of another technique when fired 70m away that would nearly reach a target being warped by double Kamui?

6th Gated Rock Lee, who's feat is no less impressive just because it's him. 

EMS Sasuke never reacted to Juubi Jinchuriki Madara's Truthseeker. 

Tobirama is an FTG user and Madara outright admitted he was the fastest shinobi of their era (better than Madara, Hashirama & Izuna), which further augments my claim for the reason by which Minato is as fast as KCM Naruto. 

Madara's truthseekers are extremely fast, no ranged technique used on panel bar other Rikudo-chakra techniques are on it's level. 



> And KCM Naruto  performed much better, against faster Ei.


Ei wasn't faster- and he did nothing more than replicate Minato's feat of avoiding it. The only difference is Minato's head was turned when Ei began the blitz- and he wasn't shunshining like Naruto- making him that much easier a target for Ei.

If anything, Minato's feat was more impressive as Ei didn't have to chase him down like he did KCM Naruto, and KCM Naruto already had the advantage of movement to quicken his reaction to Ei. 



> Prove that Kakashi's long-range Kamui was super-fast. He was exhausted and he is not an Uchiha.


If you don't know the speed of Kakashi's Kamui you haven't been reading the manga. 



> Young MS Obito <<<<<<<<<< adult prime MS Obito.


Adult Prime MS Obito is at most 10% stronger, and that's because he's learned to use it more methodically. 

Unless, of course, you have feats more impressive than performed against Minato? Because Rinnegan Obito, not MS Obito, is the only other version of Obito who ever faced an opponent close to Minato's power scale. 



> Yeah, i did a mistake there. Hiraishin is instant, so Kamui cant be faster. But adult Obito can phase through any of Minato's attacks.


Of course he can- unless his "automatic" Kamui timing fails when matched against the instantaneous warping and high-speed striking of Minato. 



> Base Minato couldnt dodge young Obito's attempt to grab his arm and couldnt teleport before being in young Obito's chains.


His arm and body was flailing from a turn-around attempt to quick slash Obito in the face. Obito phased through it, something Minato without knowledge did not expect, then he solidified and managed to catch his hand. 

Is that suppose to be impressive? Phasing through Minato's turn-around generic kunai slash then catching his arm as momentum carried it?

Should I mention the fact that Minato warped out of Kamui directly afterwards?



> Adult Obito fought base Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto, someone faster than Minato, at the same time, without getting hit.


Rinnegan Obito fought them, after having KCM Naruto, Kakashi, Gai & Killer Bee take down 6 Edo Rinnegan Sharingan Perfect Jinchuriki paths of pain who all morphed into Bijuu Mode.

KCM Naruto couldn't avoid strikes from the 1-tail (practically base) Jins prior to the actual battle happening, he literally had to deliberately (his choice) tank a lava-fist to get close enough to inspect the rods controlling them. If that isn't an indication that he was lacking in speed in accordance to the version of himself capable of reacting to, and avoiding V2 Ei- I don't know what the fuck is.

He was WEAKENED. Get over it.


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## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

thank you Davizwiz 
Star copy and paste his posts. thats basically word for word all i have to say


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

> "Automatic" generally means it works without the invoking of human thought, Kamui is 100% driven by the thought of Obito.



Kamui can be turned on and turned off. After it's turned on, it is automatic. Remember how Obito couldnt take Rin's corpse after he recieved MS? And Hussain, although i dont like him because he trolls a lot, brought here a Databook statement, which is not countered by the manga canon. 

Obito materialised and couldnt turn Kamui on due to Minato's speed. He could do that in his fight with Kakashi, Gai and Naruto, after Kurama's chakra, which regenerates with time, allowed him to use KCM again. Time have passed during the explanation of Kurama about 10 tails. KCM Naruto could even make a super-mini Bijuu Dama in that fight, which he, as i remember, couldnt do before. So i dont think its right to say that KCM Naruto, at that time, was still weakened.



> Again, automatic means it works without human intervention, the jutsu doesn't work unless Obito activates the eye.



I replied to that up there. 



> You have no evidence suggesting Kamui improved in speed- it's illogical to assume an MS technique increases in speed at any point.
> 
> Do you think Amaterasu improves in speed through training and experience?
> 
> No, it's as fast in it's first use as it's last use.



Well, judging from adult Obito's performance, his reaction speed got better. Because he could turn on and off his Kamui phase just in time against 3 speedsters, one of whom was not weakened KCM Naruto.



> They were reacted to by Kakashi from 70m out, who did not have the physical speed to simply duct a foot below the Truthseeker. It required both Kamuis used in conjunction to warp Obito away from them- and he barely made it. Can you think of another technique when fired 70m away that would nearly reach a target being warped by double Kamui?
> 
> 6th Gated Rock Lee, who's feat is no less impressive just because it's him.
> 
> ...



6 Gate Rock Lee reacted to them. Low Gate Gai, exhausted at that time, reacted to them. Gaara's sand was close to move at Madara's Truthseeker's speed. 

But i admit that Minato's reaction speed is good. But that's not enough to beat adult Obito, since he doesnt have an impressive attack speed. His movements are simply not fast enough to touch an improved adult Obito and in that department, he is way below KCM Naruto.

And how the fact that Tobirama's clone could react to already exploding Truthseeker proves anything? Tobirama had faster reflexes and movement speed than KCM Minato, since, unlike Minato, he managed to mark Juubito. Tobirama is also above KCM Naruto in that department.



> Ei wasn't faster- and he did nothing more than replicate Minato's feat of avoiding it. The only difference is Minato's head was turned when Ei began the blitz- and he wasn't shunshining like Naruto- making him that much easier a target for Ei.
> 
> If anything, Minato's feat was more impressive as Ei didn't have to chase him down like he did KCM Naruto, and KCM Naruto already had the advantage of movement to quicken his reaction to Ei.



I want you to explain why young Bee could react to Minato twice and to young Ei's top speed, but was beaten by V1 Raikage Ei. Also i want to see an explanation of why Raikage Ei's Raiton looks thicker. 

And Minato, unlike Naruto, used a teleportation space-time ninjutsu which allows to instantly teleport to another place. So i dont know how that feat is more impressive, when Naruto dodged Ei by movement and Minato dodged him by instantly teleporting away. 



> If you don't know the speed of Kakashi's Kamui you haven't been reading the manga.



He was exhausted at that moment because he was using lots of his chakra before that, with Kamui, when he is not an Uchiha, thus MS quickly tires him out.



> Adult Prime MS Obito is at most 10% stronger, and that's because he's learned to use it more methodically.
> 
> Unless, of course, you have feats more impressive than performed against Minato? Because Rinnegan Obito, not MS Obito, is the only other version of Obito who ever faced an opponent close to Minato's power scale.



Rinnegan Obito, in fact, faced 3 speedsters at once, one of which had faster movement speed than Minato and reaction speed at least as good as that of Minato. That is more impressive than young Obito's performance against just one speedster. 

And Rinnegan Obito = MS Shippuden Obito in terms of speed, since Rinnegan does not give any kind of speed boost, or precognition.



> Of course he can- unless his "automatic" Kamui timing fails when matched against the instantaneous warping and high-speed striking of Minato.



Minato's striking speed is not as high as that of KCM Naruto. Adult Obito fought KCM Naruto, Kakashi and Gai at once, without getting hit, for a long time. Adult Obito's reaction speed is a lot higher than that of his younger counterpart, which allows him to dodge any of Minato's attack. Minato cant beat adult obito, who, by the way, ha svery impressive striking speed. So impressive a not weakened KCM Naruto couldnt shunshin out of his attack range. he wasnt weakened because there was a time for Kurama's chakra to regenerate. And because he could use Mini Bijuu Dama, which he couldnt use before that.



> His arm and body was flailing from a turn-around attempt to quick slash Obito in the face. Obito phased through it, something Minato without knowledge did not expect, then he solidified and managed to catch his hand.
> 
> Is that suppose to be impressive? Phasing through Minato's turn-around generic kunai slash then catching his arm as momentum carried it?
> 
> Should I mention the fact that Minato warped out of Kamui directly afterwards?



And couldnt teleport away when he saw how it phases. 

Should i mention that it is just a reaction speed, which wont help him to beat adult Obito due to slow attacking speed? 



> Rinnegan Obito fought them, after having KCM Naruto, Kakashi, Gai & Killer Bee take down 6 Edo Rinnegan Sharingan Perfect Jinchuriki paths of pain who all morphed into Bijuu Mode.
> 
> KCM Naruto couldn't avoid strikes from the 1-tail (practically base) Jins prior to the actual battle happening, he literally had to deliberately (his choice) tank a lava-fist to get close enough to inspect the rods controlling them. If that isn't an indication that he was lacking in speed in accordance to the version of himself capable of reacting to, and avoiding V2 Ei- I don't know what the fuck is.
> 
> He was WEAKENED. Get over it.



Kurama's chakra was restored and after that, Naruto went into KCM again, doing a SMBD, which he couldnt do before that. You call that "weakened"?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Well, that means adult Obito's reaction speed is far above that of his younger counterpart.



I wouldn't say "far" but I think adult Obito would logically be above kid Obito in physical cabilities, reaction speed included.

Kamui is a supplementary jutsu, so it realies on timing and tactics. Thats why I believe there is a difference between kid Obito and adult Obito, even if the jutsu itself remained the same.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I wouldn't say "far" but I think adult Obito would logically be above kid Obito in physical cabilities, reaction speed included.
> 
> Kamui is a supplementary jutsu, so it realies on timing and tactics. Thats why I believe there is a difference between kid Obito and adult Obito, even if the jutsu itself remained the same.



Maybe i overhyped Obito's improvement, it might be. But the fact is - he fought fresh KCM Naruto, Kakashi and base Gai at the same time. Fresh because Kurama's chakra restored after Kurama explained things about Juubi, which not only allowed Naruto to use KCM again, but allowed him to do what he never did before, although tried once - create a Super Mini Bijuu Dama. "Far" may be too much indeed, but the improvement is definetely... "tangible".


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## StickaStick (Jul 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Minato already closed the gap twice against Kurama, you are literally working against canon at this point.


Canon had Minato pin down Kurama with Bunta in order to gather enough chakra to move him and even implied to Bunta that he would need a minute's worth of time to do so.


So yeah, not nearly as easy as you're making it out to be and this was after Obito's control had already been taken away.



> The end result is Minato killing Obito, his War-arc feats with FTG put him on a speed level that Obito can't handle and that's just the bottom line.


On the same token Obito's War-Arc feats showed that Minato probably isn't touching him either.



StarWanderer said:


> Maybe i overhyped Obito's improvement, it might be. But the fact is - he fought fresh KCM Naruto, Kakashi and base Gai at the same time. Fresh because Kurama's chakra restored after Kurama explained things about Juubi, which not only allowed Naruto to use KCM again, but allowed him to do what he never did before, although tried once - create a Super Mini Bijuu Dama. "Far" may be too much indeed, but the improvement is definetely... "tangible".


I don't necessarily think "far" is that much of a stretch. Not when Obito was able to dodge KCM Naruto's chakra arm at point-blank range while in mid-flight:


And was able to blitz him so quickly that he literally destroyes Naruto's clone, turns around, and races at Naruto all while he's extending his chakra arm at him and it's literally like Naruto's moving in *slow motion* compare to Obito:


*Spoiler*: __ 







Unless you're telling me Younger-Obito could do that as well fine but I highly doubt he was nearly _that _fast and reflexive back then.


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## thechickensage (Jul 9, 2015)

How long after Obito got his MS did he attack the Leaf?  So...was he new to it?  Fresh and completely inexperienced?  Or did he have months/yearish to practice with it?


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

^i believe its the latter 
hilarious how people make it sound like there is lots of improvement to be made to a genetic technique

sasuke uses amaterasu against hachibi out of desperation by the next fight the guy can spam it and control enton with no issues

can barely form susanoo level 1, by next fight goes all the way up till level 4

kakashi cant aim deidara next try wraps an explosion several times larger than deidara

everytime after that was ridiculously precise with kamui 

yet what people dont get is kishi made sure to mention kakashi improving with his kamui. where is the statement of obito improving with  kamui?

note in the span of less than a year from beginning of part 2 till war arc kakashi became an expert with kamui 

so why do people make it sound like obito just got his MS right before fighting minato and had never used it. despite slaughtering a bunch of fodder mist nin with it

goign back to madara and learning more about uchiha jutsu...how many years past ? cuz if its anything close to a year he easily would have perfected kamui the way kakashi did


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## StarWanderer (Jul 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ^i believe its the latter
> hilarious how people make it sound like there is lots of improvement to be made to a genetic technique
> 
> sasuke uses amaterasu against hachibi out of desperation by the next fight the guy can spam it and control enton with no issues
> ...



Although i agree that Kakashi has improved in Kamui usage, i wanna see a statement of that in manga.

Anyway, alright, Kamui stayed the same. What, however, got better with time is Obito's physical speed and, what's most important, his reaction speed, which allowed him to fight Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto at the same time. 



> I don't necessarily think "far" is that much of a stretch. Not when Obito was able to dodge KCM Naruto's chakra arm at point-blank range while in mid-flight:
> 
> Spoiler:
> 
> ...



The first scan shows Naruto after battling Edo Jins and i agree that i wasnt the same KCM Naruto who dodged Ei's V2.

But the second scan you have shown shows a fresh KCM Naruto, after Kurama's chakra has been restored which allowed Naruto not only to use KCM again, but create a SMBD, which he couldnt create before. Obito dodged that fresh KCM Naruto, with Kakashi's and Gai's attacks, from different angles. And he was so fast fresh KCM Naruto couldnt get away from the line of his attack. That is more impressive than young Obito's performance against a shinobi who doesnt have striking speed and Shunshin's speed as good as that of KCM Naruto.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 10, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Maybe i overhyped Obito's improvement, it might be. But the fact is - he fought fresh KCM Naruto, Kakashi and base Gai at the same time. Fresh because Kurama's chakra restored after Kurama explained things about Juubi, which not only allowed Naruto to use KCM again, but allowed him to do what he never did before, although tried once - create a Super Mini Bijuu Dama. "Far" may be too much indeed, but the improvement is definetely... "tangible".



Yeah I would agree to that.



thechickensage said:


> How long after Obito got his MS did he attack the Leaf?  So...was he new to it?  Fresh and completely inexperienced?  Or did he have months/yearish to practice with it?



He must have had some experience, he seemed pretty confident going into the leaf. 
I'd say a few months, a year tops.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Although i agree that Kakashi has improved in Kamui usage, i wanna see a statement of that in manga.



glad you asked. feel free to read his fight with deidara. i couldnt properly place the barrier 

also read the part where obito says of course u can escape kamui dimension. something kakashi only did when he mastered kamui

statement of being able to body wrap is also in DB4. read kamui in DB, its stated there very clearly. with full mastery a person can body wrap. 



> Anyway, alright, Kamui stayed the same. What, however, got better with time is Obito's physical speed and, what's most important, his reaction speed, which allowed him to fight Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto at the same time.



again you have no proof his physical speed would have improved. in any way that you believe to be significant. the guy could have dulled his skills considering he relies too much on kamui. which really is an auto troll the opponents offense 




> The first scan shows Naruto after battling Edo Jins and i agree that i wasnt the same KCM Naruto who dodged Ei's V2.



ok  i agree. not at all 



> But the second scan you have shown shows a fresh KCM Naruto, after Kurama's chakra has been restored which allowed Naruto not only to use KCM again, but create a SMBD, which he couldnt create before. Obito dodged that fresh KCM Naruto, with Kakashi's and Gai's attacks, from different angles. And he was so fast fresh KCM Naruto couldnt get away from the line of his attack. That is more impressive than young Obito's performance against a shinobi who doesnt have striking speed and Shunshin's speed as good as that of KCM Naruto.




you have zero proof KCm naruto striking speed exceeds minato's though. also minato doesnt really use physical speed as its lame when compared to hirashin

of which btw he can throw a kunai quicker than KCM naruto can shunshin therefore he will always cover any distance quicker than naruto would 

young obito peformance was lackluster because he faced someone with a jutsu horribly designed to counter obito technique

the guy could straight up shit blitz obito the second he tagged obito. despite obito ability to phase. 

minato second attack is faster than anything a non rikudo naruto can muster. hence why minato can hit obito in a 1 on 1 twice but naruto with an entire team struggled to do the same thing

what did obito actually do jutsu wise that would have helped him against minato? the guy who got the reactions to use hirashin twice against goudama which required kamui speed be doubled

for kakashi kamui speed feats see with raikiri19. he got a loooong list compiled


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## StarWanderer (Jul 10, 2015)

> glad you asked. feel free to read his fight with deidara. i couldnt properly place the barrier
> 
> also read the part where obito says of course u can escape kamui dimension. something kakashi only did when he mastered kamui
> 
> statement of being able to body wrap is also in DB4. read kamui in DB, its stated there very clearly. with full mastery a person can body wrap.



You are asking me for scans every time, but cant provide them yourself? 

Anyway, i agree that Kakashi's mastery over Kamui got better. But even if Obito's Kamui havent improved, his striking speed and reaction speed got better for sure.



> again you have no proof his physical speed would have improved. in any way that you believe to be significant. the guy could have dulled his skills considering he relies too much on kamui. which really is an auto troll the opponents offense



His physical speed improved because KCM Naruto, a fresh one, couldnt go away from the line of his attack. Someone, who's physical speed is above that of Minato, who's Shunshin is above that of Minato, couldnt go away from the line of Obito's attack.

His reaction speed also got better. Minato has great reaction speed. But his striking speed is not very impressive at all. Young Obito took a hit from Minato. Adult Obito evaded strikes from different angles, from 3 speedsters, *one of which has faster striking speed than Minato's and faster Shunshin than Minato's*.

So, of course, Obito never stayed the same. His striking speed improved throughout those 17 years, the same thing with his reaction speed, which also got better. 



> you have zero proof KCm naruto striking speed exceeds minato's though. also minato doesnt really use physical speed as its lame when compared to hirashin
> 
> of which btw he can throw a kunai quicker than KCM naruto can shunshin therefore he will always cover any distance quicker than naruto would
> 
> ...



Oh realy? Show me Minato's striking speed feats. Come on, i'll wait. Because the Obito whom Minato fought was below his prime adult counterpart. And the reason why Minato could "blitz" Obito after he marked him is because:

1. Obito suffered pain, which makes it harder to use any ninjutsu.
2. Minato marked him so he could instanteniously appear close to him any time he wants.

Physical speed is lame when compared to Hiraishin? SM Hashirama, EMS Madara, BSM Naruto, RT Rinnegan SM Madara (basicly alive SM Hashirama in terms of speed) and alive Tobirama disagree with that statement. All these characters can hit Minato before he teleports away, while Minato has no chance at all of hitting either of these. Because they are way too fast for him. 

And can throw kunai faster than KCM Naruto's Shunshin? Can you prove that? 

Those Gudoudama's were reacted to by lots of characters. And Minato's feat was a reaction speed feat, which wont help him in a fight with adult Obito, because adult Obito can easily react to Minato's attacks.

Kakashi was exhausted at that moment, a lot. He is not an uchiha and he used Kamui many times before that instance.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

> StarWanderer said:
> 
> 
> > You are asking me for scans every time, but cant provide them yourself?
> ...


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 10, 2015)

> I can provide them but u know what am talking about very clearly already



You knew what i was talking about clearly, but nevertheless wanted me to provide scans. So i will act like you - provide scans, please. 



> good. kishi also agrees and stated such in the DB.
> 
> what he didn't include or imply was obito anything improving



Provide that Databook statement.

And he implied that Obito improved, giving him that excellent performance against Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto.



> so Naruto going away from obito line of attack does what for him? unless he can get out of obito LOS instantly the moment obito attacks. Naruto can run circles round obito. obito simply phases while laughing at Naruto effort
> 
> so its not Naruto couldn't get out of his LOS, its it would have been futile, to do so or attempt it since Naruto cant get there instantly



Um, prevent Obito from touching him? That's what going away from Obito's line of attack does.

It is a complete idiocy, an ultra-moronic behavior to stay on his line of attack and do nothing, knowing that he has a chance of absorbing you into Kamui dimension with 1 touch, when you can dodge, or counter it. 



> minato attacks both of them also>>>>>>>>>>anything KCM Naruto and his team tried against obito. evading strikes from different angles isn't difficult. obito can evade dam near everything.
> 
> he simply could have been phased well before they ever attempted to hit him. so it wouldn't matter how fast they going.
> 
> they simply couldn't time their attacks in such a way as to hit obito when he is tangible. because they are all slower and more predictable than minato using hirashin



Evading attacks of 3 speedsters from different angles while trying to counter-attack them (he attacked and phased just in time to evade their strikes, including KCM naruto's strikes) is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting only 1 speedster, who doesnt have any impressive striking speed feats, at all. 

Young Bee could counter Minato's striking speed *twice*. Adult Bee couldnt see KCM Naruto's strike and Shunshin movement, commenting that all he saw was a yellow flash. KCM Naruto also fought Edo Itachi while being weakened and used his hands to protect himself from Raikage Ei's V1, who dominated adult Bee without much of a problem, proving that his hand speed is very impressive. 

In general, Minato has no impressive striking speed feats at all. So how in hell is his striking speed comparable to that of KCM Naruto? 

And since when Minato's striking speed is higher than that of base Gai and Kakashi?



> to which u got no DB statements, scans or implications. did young obito loose to these guys?
> 
> he did loose to someone which again the DB and panel feats obviously suggest he can shit blitz anyone he tags.
> 
> recall SM Naruto hit juubito because juubito was tagged. Sm Naruto is a shit stain to juubito



You have no Databook statements, no scans, but you are always asking me to provide them? No, i dont think it is nessesary for me to provide databook statements and scans at this point. 

There are lots of characters whom Minato cant tag at all. He doesnt have striking speed feats to put him in KCM naruto's tier, who's strikes adult Obito easily evaded, along with Gai's and Kakashi's strikes. Adult obito evaded strikes from 3 speedsters, one of which possesses faster Shunshin and striking speed than Minato. Young Obito was hit by Minato. It is obvious adult Obito has faster reaction speed than young Obito. And his striking speed is also faster, because KCM Naruto couldnt Shunshin away from Obito's line of attack.



> to which u got no panel statements or proof. Minato striking feats. well u know the obito fight
> 
> do both count or do u ignore them



Young Bee could counter Minato's striking speed twice, but couldnt see KCM Naruto's strike. KCM Naruto fought in close combat with characters who does have feats, Minato fought a featless young Obito, who was below his prime. 

Minato's striking speed is a childsplay compare to KCM Naruto's striking speed, which adult Obito could evade, effortlessly.



> ok. can give u that. I agree on 2. which means minato could also instantenousily blitz him after. something KCM Naruto even BM Naruto couldn't hope to achieve



LOL, maybe because neither of them could appear right at his face, because they didnt have FTG? 



> sadly the only characters to hit minato before he can teleport are juubito and juudara both of which entirely murder the people u just mentioned. juudara vs all of them is a stomp in juudara favour



Yeah, and Minato was drastically amped in both of these occasions. Nevertheless, lost both of his arms and did nothing.

Edo Tobirama could react to Juubito's movements and mark him in a close range. KCM Edo Minato, who was faster than alive base Minato due to a very huge KCM boost, couldnt mark Juubito at close range and lost his arm. Edo Tobirama's clone was so fast it could react to already exploding Gudoudama, teleport it back to Juubito and say few words to him before it explode. 

Edo Madara was so fast he duplicated Minato's feat, using not a Shunshin, or FTG, but his physical speed only. Later, Edo Madara effortlessly moved faster than Onoki's Jinton. Alive RT Madara, an equal to EMS Madara in terms of speed, outclassed SM Naruto, who's a sensor, and who's reaction speed and movement speed is greater than that of KCM Naruto due to the fact he could react to Third Raikage and hit him in close range, someone who was comparable with Fourth Raikage in terms of speed. While KCM Naruto couldnt do anything to The Fourth at close range, except for blocking his strikes. 

RT Rinnegan SM Madara, an equal to alive SM Hashirama in terms of speed, easily dodged Edo Tobirama's strike, a strike of shinobi who could mark Juubito, and hit his arm. Before that, RT Madara easily evaded EMS Sasuke's strikes thanks to Hashirama's SM.

All these shinobi can easily evade Minato's attacks and can hit him before he teleports away. Because Minato's performances and feats cant allow to say otherwise. 



> yup easily. kakashi could throw a kunai as quick as juudara omyoton. which was too fast for a singular kamui
> 
> minato the ninja relying on that who is no physically weaker than kakashi would have at the least kunai throwing speed at the same level
> 
> ...



Juubidara's truthseekers are not very fast and lots of shinobi can react to them without any space-time ninjutsu.

I want to see that DB statement, or it is a lie.

KCM Naruto's Shunshin allowed him to outpace someone who can evade Amaterasu. How in hell a kunai, thrown by Minato, will be faster than KCM Naruto's Shunshin?



> yet required kamui speed be doubled. how many characters can react to kamui speed being doubled



Minato reacted to doubled kamui speed? I dont remember that. I remember Gai saving Kakashi from a truthseeker. 

And there are characters who can evade long-ranged kamui. 

Even Juubito's movements are a lot faster than Juubidara's truthseekers. Base Minato could react to those Truthseekers, when KCM Minato couldnt react to Juubito's movements and lost his arm? Lol.



> sure nice cop out there. it didn't stop him from using it against juudara omyoton. can u prove his kamui was slower because he was apparently exhausted? despite being able to use kamui to wrap a rasengan from minato point blank?
> 
> I need scans of am too tired to use kamui effectively
> 
> ...




He warped Minato's rasengan, which was just flying away in a free fall with Minato's hand.

And of course, it is harder to control your chakra and use it when you are exhausted. It is pretty much logical. Obito's words in one instance prove that Kamui absorbtion's speed can be different. So i highly doubt that exhausted kakashi's Kamui absorbtion speed will be as good as if he was at his peak.

Via their reaction speed and movement speed by the way. And Juubito's movements, to which even Edo Tobirama could react, were a lot faster than Juubidara's Gudoudamas.

EMS Sasuke shunshined there and protected Naruto from Truthseeker with his Susanoo's hand. It is very impressive. And KCM Naruto was in a free fall.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

> StarWanderer said:
> 
> 
> > You knew what i was talking about clearly, but nevertheless wanted me to provide scans. So i will act like you - provide scans, please.
> ...


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

> actually i havent gotten what u talking about hence why i need scans. u however have admitted to getting what am talkign about.



Oh come on, you pretty much know what i am talking about.



> read it!!!! read it!!!
> 
> Spoiler:



Anyway, that doesnt prove Obito havent improved.



> ur turn scans or statements.



I dont need them. I have manga facts and logic on my side, which you dont realy have. 



> ok and now does he have the speed to do that and attack obito. cuz its not just about fleeign from obito but attacking him



If KCM naruto was fats enough he would have dodged, or counter-attacked obito because there was no sense for him to stay there, do nothing and risk to be absorbed by Kamui. KCM naruto didnt have the speed good enough to do that.



> naruto simply couldnt get out of his LOS and attack before obito reacts. simply put. if he could he would have



KCM Naruto couldnt dodge him, or counter-attack him. Because there is no sense for him to stay there and do nothing, risking of being absorbed in Kamui dimension. But he stayed there and did nothing. He simply wasnt fast enough to get out of his line of attack, or counter-attack him.

And now, it is clear for me as day that you are trolling me. You are not debating with me seriously. The second Hussain. Talking about getting out of Obito's LOS, when Kakashi, Gai and KCM Naruto did that many, many times *without any result*? 



> all slower than the one speedstar u refer to.



Nope. Base Gai did better than Minato. Plus, KCM Naruto's striking speed and Shunshin's speed is faster than that of base Minato.



> lol Db disagrees. and the manga since by himself with no knowledge he did what they needed a team to do and knowledge



He did that against a featless young Obito. It is impossible to stay the same after 17 years. Because he grew up, his brain and body (non-zetsu) grew up with him. And his performance against 3 speedsters, one of which, in fact, has faster striking speed than Minato, speaks for himself. 



> that makes bee impressive. good for him. doesnt help obito case who got hit twice. that shows bee reactions>>>>obito reactions. poor obito.



Bee's reactions >>>>> Obito's reactions? That's laughable. His performances against other characters proves that his reaction speed is not >>>>> that of Obito. And that was an adult Bee. 

It helps Obito's case. Young Bee could see Minato's strikes, but couldnt see KCM Naruto's strikes, which were evaded by adult Obito. That's how faster KCM Naruto's striking speed was compare to that of Minato. 

Young Bee could react to Minato's striking speed and young Ei's top speed, but was getting a beating from adult V1 Raikage Ei, whose fastest V2 punch was dodged by KCM Naruto, who couldnt get out of adult Obito's line of attack and couldnt hit Obito without Kakashi's and Gai's help.

It is pretty much obvious that adult Obito was >>>>>>>>>> young Obito. 



> what strikign speed feats does KCM naruto have? lol



Striking so fast Killer Bee couldnt see his strike and saw only yellow flash. While weakened, fought on equal terms with Edo Itachi in close combat, and blocked strikes from V1 Raikage Ei, who was dominating Bee without much of a problem. And i am talking about Bee who could see and very well react to Minato's strikes.

Now i wanna know about Minato's striking speed feats.



> see above what have the done as far as strikign feat that minato couldnt replicate?



Read what i wrote above. Minato couldnt replicate KCM Naruto's feat of striking so fast Bee couldnt see it.



> but i do. see above and read it slowly



That proves nothing important in our debate. 



> never said he could tag everyone. sadly obito on panel is one of those people he can tag and did tag
> 
> just read the manga
> 
> ...



That could be just a hyperbole. Ei couldnt chase him due to Minato's FTG, whose speed is instantenious. KCM Naruto didnt have that kind of technique and his Shunshin is not instantenious.

And the understanding of that Databook's statement which you have is very well countered by the manga itself. Young Bee reacted to Minato's striking speed twice, while couldnt see KCM Naruto's strike. 



> odd in that scan he said just like the yellow flash. want to guess who the yellow flash is?
> do you know his name
> 
> minato! thats the yellow flash. to which yamato, very cute how u forget that. Said no KCM naruto isnt at that level yet



He didnt say "just like the Yellow Flash", he said "but all i saw was a yellow flash". KCM Naruto's movements were so fast for Killer Bee that he looked like a yellow flash for Bee. And it seems to be true, especially when Bee could react to Minato's striking speed twice. 

And Yamato never saw Minato in action. He could say that due to Minato's hype.



> yet no scans or Db statement to that effect



Bee saw Minato's strikes, but couldnt see KCM Naruto's strikes. other than that, Minato fought a featless character below his prime.

Minato's striking speed is a childsplay compare to that of KCM Naruto.



> thats their problem. means ultimately THEY ARE SLOWER than minato



They are not slower than Minato - they just didnt have FTG, which would have allowed them to teleport right at his face. 



> drastically lol. got panels to prove KCM improves reactions? SM sure but KCM....nope physical boost is the only thing mentioned
> 
> its odd how u mention juudara and juubito. But last i checked BSM naruto who is a version>>>>>>>>>KCM naruto with help from EMS sasuke still coudlnt do shit to juubito
> 
> his speed didnt even slightly manage to impress juubito



Facepalm. Compare an everage teenager Naruto's reaction speed and KCM Naruto's reaction speed. Going by feats of both versions, KCM amps reaction speed drastically. By the way, even tsunade admitted that KCM allows naruto to keep up with Raikage Ei.

At least he could fight him for some time. And i mentioned Juubito on purpose, which you couldnt see.

Yeah, and KCM Minato's speed was even slower than that of Edo Tobirama.



> well when u talk about speed tobirama already said it clear as day he is slower.
> 
> Minato never had a mark on juubito. so moot point



Minato had a chance to mark Juubito, or do anything to him in a clsoe distance, but did nothing. Tobirama had the same chance and marked Juubito. 

And how many times will you repeat that? Tobirama admitted that Minato's FTG is better and that his Shunshin is faster. Nothing about reflexes. Nothing about striking speed. Nothing at all. 



> edo madara duplicated minato feat? really? what did he do am well confused. feat of what? blocking A punch? minato didnt block it. he lol got behind A



Minato used a teleportation technique to dodge Ei's blitz and teleport right behind him. Edo Madara blocked a V2 Raikage's punch thanks to his physical speed. he didnt have to Shunshin a great distance in order to dodge Ei, he didnt have to use a space-time ninjutsu which allows to instantly teleport anywhere - he used only his physical speed. That is even more impressive than what KCM naruto and Minato have done.



> i dont see what that has to do with minato. tobirama said he is slower already



Tobirama didnt say that his striking speed is slower, or that his reflexes are slower. 



> lol if it makes u sleep. hard to take u seriously though when u try to claim KCM is anything but beneath minato. considering yamato statement and DB 4 statement



Those statements proves nothing at all and i already explained why. The main canon is manga, which counters those statements big time. 



> yet sadly 2 with ST jutsu had to combine their effort to evade it



Yet there are shinobi who can physicaly react to them, without any space-time ninjutsu.



> pretty sure i already gave u that



And havent gone far with it, because that statement proves nothing, which i explained above.



> lol when did KCM naruto outpace amaterasu? wooden glasses much? it hit cerebrus before naruto even moved. to which he asked did itachi miss. loooool
> 
> omg am being trolled
> 
> and yes minato kunai is faster than naruto shunshin. throw a knife measure that speed, compare it to ur top running speed. get back to me on that



KCM Naruto could outpace someone, who dodged Amaterasu. 

And you are giving an example of a weakened KCM Naruto due to numerous clones being active during that fight with Edo Itachi.

A very bad example. Bad analogy. Raikage could dodge Amaterasu (move out of its way) yet was outpaced by KCM Naruto.



> no he reacted to omyoton which required kamui speed be doubled. the same kamui that can take away gedo mazo arm before it was summoned to madara



As if summoning speed was so super-impressive.

Many characters reacted to truthseekers. Tobirama's clone, EMS Sasuke, Gated Gai, Gated Lee. So what's so impressive about that? Yeah, Minato's reaction speed is great. But not the best among non-Godlikes and his striking speed is poor compare to the very best in striking speed department.



> ill leave raikiri19 to argue this. i find it hilarious though



No problem.



> or minato was surprised juubito regained control. odd how u can say obito didnt expect this or that, but minato is supposed to be immune to being surprised?



First, he was surprised before the strike. Second, that doesnt change the fact he couldnt react to Juubito's movements and got his arm cut off, when base Edo Minato could react to truthseekers.

I will provide a scan this time. 

Obito didnt expect what exactly? I want you to repeat my words. 



> free fall? juudara kicked it. what fucking free fall?



Ok, i agree that it wasnt a free fall. But i dont think it helps you in any way.



> lol scans please or Db statements showing obito was tired or kakashi was too tired and it affected his kamui wrap speed



Kakashi was tired because a non-Uchiha used MS lots of times. Pretty much logical. You need a chakra control in order to use Kamui, which is a lot harder when you are tired.



> they can be if u want. not the point. my point is minato used hirashin twice against somethign that required kamui speed be doubled
> 
> when kamui can rip the arm of GM before it can be summoned to madara.



Kamui absorbtion speed be doubled, not Kamui phase. 

And that proves Minato has a great reaction speed. So what? His striking speed is not good enough to hit adult Obito anyway.



> its odd how juudara is compared to juubito when the first thing minato said. is his sage powers are stronger
> 
> everything madara>>>everything obito



Sage powers makes Juubidara's Truthseekers faster than Juubito's truthseekers? I remember that it is said Senjutsu improves every ninjutsu and even taijutsu. But is there any statement that senjutsu can improve any jutsu's speed? I mean, it can improve any ninjutsu in terms of firepower, or durability and strength (Susanoo), for example. But speed?


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

i stopped reading at i dont need scans i got logic on my side. 



so logical kishi doesnt bother to attempt to agree with you through manga or DB. 

 am dying

 killer bee statement of yellow flash referred to minato directly. here is the scan epic troll sir...

dodging was useless

*yamato statement *

dodging was useless

he is not quite at the forth level yet. written clear as day for you to see. yet you deny it. yamatao basically just refuted your entire BS post of KCM naruto>>minato. so suck on that scan


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i stopped reading at i dont need scans i got logic on my side.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You dont have a proof that it was referred to Minato directly. KCM Naruto is yellow. He could be so fast that the only thing Bee saw was a yellow flash. "Teleport technique and a right handed smash, *but all i saw was a yellow flash*. Do you speak english? 

Bee could see and react to Minato's striking speed *twice*. It is in Kishimoto's manga, the main canon of Narutoverse. But adult Bee could see only a yellow flash when KCM Naruto used Shunshin and hit Kisame. 

Yamato has never crossed his paths with Minato. He had never seen Minato in action. The statement Kishimoto put in there is countered by Bee's words and performance against Minato, which was also put in there by Kishimoto.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> You dont have a proof that it was referred to Minato directly. KCM Naruto is yellow. He could be so fast that the only thing Bee saw was a yellow flash. "Teleport technique and a right handed smash, *but all i saw was a yellow flash*. Do you speak english?
> 
> Bee could see and react to Minato's striking speed *twice*. It is in Kishimoto's manga, the main canon of Narutoverse. But adult Bee could see only a yellow flash when KCM Naruto used Shunshin and hit Kisame.
> 
> Yamato has never crossed his paths with Minato. He had never seen Minato in action. The statement Kishimoto put in there is countered by Bee's words and performance against Minato, which was also put in there by Kishimoto.



prove he never crossed path with minato. read DB see how old he is. then use ur brain and note he would have been very alive when minato was alive. and would have seen him

in any case u arguing with kishi words. he didnt have yamato say that for the lolz. no need for him to have yamato say that if he wasnt driving home a point 

bee first feat was an interception, which btw if we using puts suigetsu as faster than V1 A. 
haku faster than war arc kakakashi

and all sorts of other BS which wouldnt make sense

second feat bee sword was already there, this has been argued time and time again

also considering bee reactions shouldnt be greater than obito with a sharingan which minato shit blitz. goes to show bee was already ready for the counter

which btw kishi was sure to show how being ready for hirashin makes it possible to counter even before the person gets there

juubito ready for a rear attack with hirashin blocked BM minato and BSM naruto who are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sm naruto

juubito who didnt anticipate a rear attack got smacked by SM naruto

in any case written clear as day, if u dont get that no point arguing with u


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

> prove he never crossed path with minato. read DB see how old he is. then use ur brain and note he would have been very alive when minato was alive. and would have seen him
> 
> in any case u arguing with kishi words. he didnt have yamato say that for the lolz. no need for him to have yamato say that if he wasnt driving home a point



Can you show me at least 1 chapter of manga where Yamato sees Minato in action? Can you show me at least 1 chapter where it is said Yamato saw Minato in action? No, you cant. There is no proof that Yamato realy knew how good Minato is. 

Oh yeah? Explain to me why Kishimoto made a statement for Iruka that Hiruzen is the strongest among Hokage. Does it seem to be true?



> bee first feat was an interception, which btw if we using puts suigetsu as faster than V1 A.
> haku faster than war arc kakakashi



Bee moved Hachibi's tentacle at the moment when Minato appeared behind Ei and tried to strike him. Hachibi's tentacle moved faster than Minato's hand. Bee reacted to Minato's speed and protected Ei from Minato's kunai strike with Hachibi's tentacle.



Such a great striking speed that Bee can react and use Hachibi's tale to protect Ei. I lol'ed.

By the way, does Hiraishin mark have any chakra?



> second feat bee sword was already there, this has been argued time and time again



That very well may be. But i am still interesting if there is any chakra in Hiraishin's mark.



> also considering bee reactions shouldnt be greater than obito with a sharingan which minato shit blitz. goes to show bee was already ready for the counter



Adult Obito >>>>> young Obito. Plus, it might be that young Bee's reaction speed was better than that of young Obito.



> juubito ready for a rear attack with hirashin blocked BM minato and BSM naruto who are>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sm naruto



They were not attacking him at a taijutsu-close range, from behind. ANd it is quastionable if Juubito knew he was marked.



> juubito who didnt anticipate a rear attack got smacked by SM naruto



When SM Naruto teleported behind his back. And i consider SM Naruto's striking speed to be faster than that of KCM Naruto, or Minato btw.



> in any case written clear as day, if u dont get that no point arguing with u



I explained to you why you were wrong. I countered you. So of course there is no point debating with you now. Because you've lost this debate already.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Can you show me at least 1 chapter of manga where Yamato sees Minato in action? Can you show me at least 1 chapter where it is said Yamato saw Minato in action? No, you cant. There is no proof that Yamato realy knew how good Minato is.
> 
> Oh yeah? Explain to me why Kishimoto made a statement for Iruka that Hiruzen is the strongest among Hokage. Does it seem to be true?



 read the DB. kishi cant show everything in the manga. why have yamato talk about minato speed if minato was slower. he wasn't in the chapter. kishi was making a point. like I said u don't get that no point carrying on talking

feel free to provide a scan where kishi says KCM is faster than minato then we will talk. I got a scan on panel saying the opposite and DB4 statement. u on the loosing end of this argument



> Bee moved Hachibi's tentacle at the moment when Minato appeared behind Ei and tried to strike him. Hachibi's tentacle moved faster than Minato's hand. Bee reacted to Minato's speed and protected Ei from Minato's kunai strike with Hachibi's tentacle.



interception feat doesn't count for shit



> Such a great striking speed that Bee can react and use Hachibi's tale to protect Ei. I lol'ed.



lol harder the only scan u got of KCM striking speed. yamato countered it. nice try



> By the way, does Hiraishin mark have any chakra?



yes idiotic question. its a cursed seal made of chakra



> That very well may be. But i am still interesting if there is any chakra in Hiraishin's mark


.

 yes its a cursed seal made of chakra. how dumb are you? it seals minato chakra within it. that's how he summons himself to the marks. via chakra!! 



> Adult Obito >>>>> young Obito. Plus, it might be that young Bee's reaction speed was better than that of young Obito.



oddly enough no scans to that effect. ur basis is weak. young obito never fought anyone else but minato. so its not like KCM who btw we have an on scan statement saying he is slower and the rest who obviously are beat young obito 



> They were not attacking him at a taijutsu-close range, from behind. ANd it is quastionable if Juubito knew he was marked.



1 scan of obito being attacked from behind please. with anything he wont be able to react to in time. everything used against him was in his line of sight



> When SM Naruto teleported behind his back. And i consider SM Naruto's striking speed to be faster than that of KCM Naruto, or Minato btw.



 
KCM Naruto>>>>>>>>>>SM Naruto in anything having to do with speed. need scans of Naruto saying in KCM he is by his own words much stronger than he was in SM?



> I explained to you why you were wrong. I countered you. So of course there is no point debating with you now. Because you've lost this debate already.






I give up. scans from kishi in a manga he drew not you btw...says minato is faster than KCM Naruto

he even went further and repeated said statement in the DB4.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

> read the DB. kishi cant show everything in the manga. why have yamato talk about minato speed if minato was slower. he wasn't in the chapter. kishi was making a point. like I said u don't get that no point carrying on talking
> 
> feel free to provide a scan where kishi says KCM is faster than minato then we will talk. I got a scan on panel saying the opposite and DB4 statement. u on the loosing end of this argument



I read it and already explained why that statement doesnt prove anything in this debate. Plus, if he was alive at that moment, it doesnt mean he saw Minato in action. Minato could be so hyped that Yamato made such a statement. 

Young Bee could see and react to Minato's striking speed and use Hachibi's tentacle, which could move faster than Minato's hand, adult Bee couldnt see KCM Naruto moving and delivering a strike, yet saw a yellow flash. And you provided a statement which can be a hyperbole. Great speed could be his teleportation speed, which, of course, Ei couldnt even chase. Because Minato could teleport away. 

Or, maybe i was wrong about KCM Naruto's Shunshin being faster and Minato's Shunshin was faster. 

Anyway, nothing about Minato's striking speed. 

So how in hell Minato's striking is as fast as KCM Naruto's, when there is no DB statement that can prove it, when KCM Naruto's performances are greater and when young Bee could react to Minato's strike with Hachibi's tentacle, which moved faster than Minato's strike? 



> interception feat doesn't count for shit



Bee reacted to Minato's strike right after Minato attempted to strike Ei and Hachibi's tale was faster than Minato's strike. That does count. 



> lol harder the only scan u got of KCM striking speed. yamato countered it. nice try



KCM Naruto's performace counteres Yamato's words. Especially when there is no proof Yamato saw Minato fighting with anyone.



> yes idiotic question. its a cursed seal made of chakra



Just wanted to be sure about it. But you got so angry about that. LOL.



> yes its a cursed seal made of chakra. how dumb are you? it seals minato chakra within it. that's how he summons himself to the marks. via chakra!!



Ok, calm down. I wasnt even attempting to troll you - just wanted to be sure about that.



> oddly enough no scans to that effect. ur basis is weak. young obito never fought anyone else but minato. so its not like KCM who btw we have an on scan statement saying he is slower and the rest who obviously are beat young obito



How dumb you are? A teenager, after his body (non-zetsu) have grown up, his brain have grown up, stayed exactly the same? Fighting 3 speedsters who attack you from different angles, with one of them being basicly the same Minato, but with faster striking speed and, judging from feats, faster Shunshin <<<<<<< fighting Minato?

That statement proves nothing. Come on. That 'great speed" could be Minato's teleportation speed. Ei cant chase Minato when he can teleport anywhere in one moment. That could be just a hyperbole. Still, no statements about Minato's strikes being incredibly fast. The fact Hachibi's tentacle moved faster than Minato's strike. No feats of striking speed from Minato, except hitting young featless Obito below his prime. And the fact adult Bee couldnt see KCM Naruto's strike, although could react to Minato's attempt to strike Ei.



> 1 scan of obito being attacked from behind please. with anything he wont be able to react to in time. everything used against him was in his line of sight







> KCM Naruto>>>>>>>>>>SM Naruto in anything having to do with speed. need scans of Naruto saying in KCM he is by his own words much stronger than he was in SM?



Naruto admitted himself that he can react better with SM and he did way better in a close range with Third Raikage than KCM Naruto in a close range with Fourth Raikage, although Third and Fourth were comparable in speed. And even for KCM Naruto Third was so fast it looked like he took out dozens of fodders in an instant.





> I give up. scans from kishi in a manga he drew not you btw...says minato is faster than KCM Naruto
> 
> he even went further and repeated said statement in the DB4.



Kishimoto himself drew the manga chapter where Hachibi's tentacle moves faster than Minato's attack. Kishimoto himself drew a chapter where KCM Naruto's strike looked like for Bee as a yellow flash, although young Bee could react to Minato's strike and use Hachibi's tentacle in that confrontation. And that statement proves nothing at all. I explained why many times, but it seems you dont care about that.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> read the DB. kishi cant show everything in the manga. why have yamato talk about minato speed if minato was slower. he wasn't in the chapter. kishi was making a point. like I said u don't get that no point carrying on talking



 It's still a reference to movement speed and it still doesn't imply KCM Naruto isn't faster than Minato as Yamato made that statement after KCM Naruto showed he wasn't capable of controlling his speed. It's important to note that this KCM Naruto was immediately after just gaining the form. He improved since then as he was involved in training involving Chakra Control and other shit which have been shown to improve one's reactions and speed hence why Naruto and Sasuke improved in reflexes and speed during the Wave Arc.



> feel free to provide a scan where kishi says KCM is faster than minato then we will talk. I got a scan on panel saying the opposite and DB4 statement. u on the loosing end of this argument



 

 He presented feats and you haven't refuted them.





> interception feat doesn't count for shit



 It actually does as Bee reacted to Minato's hit and extended his tentacle far faster than Minato was capable of blindsiding Ei. That's an emphasis on superior reflexes and KCM Naruto displayed far superior reflexes than a more experienced Bee.

 It's hilarious how you make such a bold claim like that and expect us to overlook how you presented no evidence for why it doesn't mean shit. Please explain to us why it doesn't mean shit instead of making such a baseless claim. 





> lol harder the only scan u got of KCM striking speed. yamato countered it. nice try



 He didn't actually as his statement was to emphasize KCM Naruto's inefficiency in using the form which no longer applied as he gained experience once he reached Obito.





> oddly enough no scans to that effect. ur basis is weak. young obito never fought anyone else but minato. so its not like KCM who btw we have an on scan statement saying he is slower and the rest who obviously are beat young obito



 Provide another statement because you're giving us the same statement from someone who has no knowledge of Minato's feats.




> 1 scan of obito being attacked from behind please. with anything he wont be able to react to in time. everything used against him was in his line of sight



 around this explosion in size

 Just one example. 




> KCM Naruto>>>>>>>>>>SM Naruto in anything having to do with speed. need scans of Naruto saying in KCM he is by his own words much stronger than he was in SM?



 That's pure conjecture and you haven't provided any evidence. Furthemore, SM Naruto was literally stated to have superior reflexes as stated by Naruto himself.




> I give up. scans from kishi in a manga he drew not you btw...says minato is faster than KCM Naruto
> 
> he even went further and repeated said statement in the DB4.



 You keep using the same argument which has been refuted countless times. It makes you less of a credible debator.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

It seems i have to re-read the manga, NarutoX28. There are many things i forgot about.  And i have to do it much more attentively. :sanji


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2015)

I don't see what there is to discuss here. Obito had to switch from using Kamui to passively phase through things to use Kamui to warp Minato due to the circumstance forcing him to have to try to end the match early. This gave Minato the window he needed to win. But w/o that window under normal conditions Minato can't overcome Kamui's intangibility and would loose the match.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It's still a reference to movement speed and it still doesn't imply KCM Naruto isn't faster than Minato as Yamato made that statement after KCM Naruto showed he wasn't capable of controlling his speed. It's important to note that this KCM Naruto was immediately after just gaining the form. He improved since then as he was involved in training involving Chakra Control and other shit which have been shown to improve one's reactions and speed hence why Naruto and Sasuke improved in reflexes and speed during the Wave Arc.



panel simply says Naruto is not there yet. Db also confirms this. Read RCM entry. its written clear as day



> He presented feats and you haven't refuted them.





got 2 statements u cant refute. try harder. 



> It actually does as Bee reacted to Minato's hit and extended his tentacle far faster than Minato was capable of blindsiding Ei. That's an emphasis on superior reflexes and KCM Naruto displayed far superior reflexes than a more experienced Bee.



so haku is faster than war arc kakashi? ok

just trying to get ur line of thought here. 



> It's hilarious how you make such a bold claim like that and expect us to overlook how you presented no evidence for why it doesn't mean shit. Please explain to us why it doesn't mean shit instead of making such a baseless claim.



baseless .  kishi words not mine. u don't like them. wear wooden glasses. 




> He didn't actually as his statement was to emphasize KCM Naruto's inefficiency in using the form which no longer applied as he gained experience once he reached Obito.



please scans of yamtao specifying it was because Naruto wasn't controlling his speed. properly 

bee made a statement. yamato countered it. simple as that





> Provide another statement because you're giving us the same statement from someone who has no knowledge of Minato's feats.



lol u mean someone who was alive and a ninja when minato was alive. really so he woulnt know of a ninja from his village. its odd...yamato knew of hirudora before gai used it on panel. I guess we can claim, kishi made a mistake or yamato got premonition. people from the same village know each other jutsu. 700 pages cant show everything




> The reason I *PURPOSELY* let my blood spill twice was for this...
> 
> Just one example.



 3rd scan on the left shows the nunchaku in obito LOS unless u think u cant see whats to the side of u. 



> That's pure conjecture and you haven't provided any evidence. Furthemore, SM Naruto was literally stated to have superior reflexes as stated by Naruto himself.



evidence that KCM>>>>SM Naruto. Naruto himself pointed that out. All he ever said as SM being superior is better sensing gives him the ability to better mount a counter attack




> You keep using the same argument which has been refuted countless times. It makes you less of a credible debator.




says the guy who cant shut up about young bee, old bee, young obito

statements of kishi saying either improved or drop that argument. young obito never faced anyone but minato, nothing is more retarded than to say he doesn't have the feats of avoiding them therefore he cant.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

I will let NarutoX28 to deal with that, but i want to put this right here.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> panel simply says Naruto is not there yet. Db also confirms this. Read RCM entry. its written clear as day



 You didn't refute my argument making this part of your post irrelevant.





> got 2 statements u cant refute. try harder.



 Present those statements and I will refute them.





> so haku is faster than war arc kakashi? ok
> 
> just trying to get ur line of thought here.



 How would Haku be faster than War Arc Kakashi?

 The reason why Bee who have superior reflexes is because he displayed superior strike speed and responded to Minato's attempt at striking Ei despite appearing as a "flash" when he warped above Ei, not to mention Bee had very little knowledge of dealing with Minato's technique.




> baseless .  kishi words not mine. u don't like them. wear wooden glasses.



 Again, you can't prove why, so this is irrelevant.




> please scans of yamtao specifying it was because Naruto wasn't controlling his speed. properly



 His statement was made after KCM Naruto displayed improper Chakra Control which is a significant factor when KCM Naruto can't even properly move or react because of it. 



> bee made a statement. yamato countered it. simple as that



 Yamato never implied that Bee's statement of Naruto being fast wasn't true and you haven't refuted my argument, so this is irrelevant.




> lol u mean someone who was alive and a ninja when minato was alive. really so he woulnt know of a ninja from his village. its odd...yamato knew of hirudora before gai used it on panel. I guess we can claim, kishi made a mistake or yamato got premonition. people from the same village know each other jutsu. 700 pages cant show everything



 And yet there's no indication of Yamato ever encountering Minato. He's not even present when Minato defends the village. 

The reason I *PURPOSELY* let my blood spill twice was for this...

 This panel could've easily displayed Yamato being present to support your argument, yet it doesn't, making your point moot.



> 3rd scan on the left shows the nunchaku in obito LOS unless u think u cant see whats to the side of u.



 You do realize that reacting something that is outside of your LoS and enters your peripheral vision is more difficult due to the eye's tendency to ignore detail when focusing on it's peripheral vision. Obito still managed to react to him despite that disadvantage while reacting to KCM Naruto effectively.




> evidence that KCM>>>>SM Naruto. Naruto himself pointed that out. All he ever said as SM being superior is better sensing gives him the ability to better mount a counter attack



 Naruto never pointed it out. He only stated that his KCM state was superior to his Pain Arc SM state which we know is inferior to his War Arc SM state.




> says the guy who cant shut up about young bee, old bee, young obito



 Great because those entities actually exist.



> statements of kishi saying either improved or drop that argument. young obito never faced anyone but minato, nothing is more retarded than to say he doesn't have the feats of avoiding them therefore he cant.



 LMAO, still looking for statements instead of feats. How narrow-minded can you be?

 Not only did Rinnegan Obito receive a superior Quality of Chakra due to the Rinnegan's Chakra  entering his brain through the optic nerve, but he also displayed feats superior to Young Obito besides properly timing his strikes against KCM Naruto and avoiding multiple attacks that escaped his LoS from Gai and KCM Naruto and further evaded KCM Naruto's strikes and effectively countered KCM Naruto before he could even perform a reaction. There's also the fact that Rinnegan Obito pressured BM Naruto, Kakashi, and BM Bee and reacted to BM Naruto's speed at close-range. Those feats places his above Young Obito's where he displayed no impressive Taijutsu feats whatsoever.

 It's your job to provide feats from Young Obito that compare to what Rinnegan Obito has done.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 12, 2015)

> Not only did Rinnegan Obito receive a superior Quality of Chakra due to the Rinnegan's Chakra entering his brain through the optic nerve, but he also displayed feats superior to Young Obito besides properly timing his strikes against KCM Naruto and avoiding multiple attacks that escaped his LoS from Gai and KCM Naruto and further evaded KCM Naruto's strikes and effectively countered KCM Naruto before he could even perform a reaction. There's also the fact that Rinnegan Obito pressured BM Naruto, Kakashi, and BM Bee and reacted to BM Naruto's speed at close-range. Those feats places his above Young Obito's where he displayed no impressive Taijutsu feats whatsoever.
> 
> It's your job to provide feats from Young Obito that compare to what Rinnegan Obito has done.



I want to add that Rinnegan does not improve speed in any way and doesnt give any precognition. Rinnegan Obito was basicly the same Shippuden MS Obito, just with a better jutsu arsenal due to Rinnegan. Which makes it obvious that Obito improved throughout those 17 years, a lot.


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## Icegaze (Jul 12, 2015)

gai nunchaku was in his LOS...u didn't refute that
so moot point. peripheral or not, he saw it. same way while writing this down, I can see my door in my peripheral. therefoe anyone coming in I would see them without having to move my head at all. 

nice try though

you have yet to show an attack coming out of obito LOS which he reacted to. the rest of your post 

so I guess everyone in the village was in the scan then. since u can decide to say yamato wasn't in that scan therefore he never knew minato

tsunade also wasn't in that scan. would you like a list of every character that wasn't in the scan?

ps: odd to call me narrow minded when u only panel squint and ignore manga statements and DB statements. looking only at feats is a lot more narrow than taking into account manga statements and DB statements to support

typical case of silly black pot callin a grey kettle black


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## Clowe (Jul 12, 2015)

Are people really comparing Adult Obito to Teen Obito, lol, deny it all you want but Adult Obito> Alive Minato all day every day. You can't compare a 14 year old throwing a tantrum to an adult throwing a tantrum.

Anyway, as long as Obito isn't tagged already, Juubito>Edo Minato> Rinnegan Obito> MS Obito> Alive Minato> 14 year old MS Obito

Why? Cuz KCM Naruto=Alive Minato, hell I'd argue he is better but Minato fanboys are too sensible so I'll leave it at that. Granted Minato is better equipped to fight Obito but still, Adult MS Obito>Alive Minato.

and don't get your Jimmies rustled please


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## StarWanderer (Jul 13, 2015)

> ps: odd to call me narrow minded when u only panel squint and ignore manga statements and DB statements. looking only at feats is a lot more narrow than taking into account manga statements and DB statements to support



He already explained why that manga statement proves nothing. We both explained to you why DB statement proves nothing. Do you want me to give you examples of complete bullshit DB statements which are countered by manga hands down? I can give them, lots of them. Manga is the main canon, not Databook.


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## Icegaze (Jul 13, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He already explained why that manga statement proves nothing. We both explained to you why DB statement proves nothing. Do you want me to give you examples of complete bullshit DB statements which are countered by manga hands down? I can give them, lots of them. Manga is the main canon, not Databook.



manga statements are also part of the manga 

no feat can counter the statement kishi had yamato make because thats the point of them 

also considering the only situation KCM naruto and minato were in which are similar is against A

Naruto simply evaded A

minato counter attacked him. 



i wonder which is better. 

feats are situational and only apply to that person when its used. 

point is if kishi says ninja A is faster than ninja B. despite ninja A having inferior feats to B based on their respective situations 

what it simply means is if ninja A was in the same situation as ninja B that he would have performed better. 

got no other reason to see it differently. or that means kishi writes manga statements for the LOLZ which serves no purpose. 

its also absolutely retarded when you use feats as a basis to say A got much faster or faster considering young A only display was against one person portrayed as faster than him 

how can that be a basis to say young A cant avoid amaterasu or everything else A did ?

Bijuu chakra levels? C is a sensor as well why wasnt he shitting himself at A chakra levels? why expect minato not giving 2 shits about that means A didnt have bijuu chakra levels 

karin was impressed true. however A is also impossibly fast to her while A is nothign but slower than minato to minato.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 13, 2015)

> manga statements are also part of the manga
> 
> no feat can counter the statement kishi had yamato make because thats the point of them



NarutoX28 already explained to you everything. So did i.

And KCM Naruto has way better striking speed feats than Minato. There is more than one feat to counter Yamato's statement. Hell, even Hachibi's tentacle can move faster than Minato's strike. Young Bee could react to Minato's striking speed, when adult Bee saw only a yellow flash when KCM Naruto stroke Kisame. 



> also considering the only situation KCM naruto and minato were in which are similar is against A
> 
> Naruto simply evaded A
> 
> minato counter attacked him.



Minato teleported at Ei's back. KCM Naruto outpaced Ei's fastest punch with a Shunshin. Also, young Bee could react to Minato's and young Ei's speed. Hachibi's tentacle moved faster than Minato's strike.

So, KCM Naruto's feat was more impressive. 



> point is if kishi says ninja A is faster than ninja B. despite ninja A having inferior feats to B based on their respective situations
> 
> what it simply means is if ninja A was in the same situation as ninja B that he would have performed better.



Kishimoto never said that KCM Naruto's striking speed was inferior to that of Minato. He said that RCM could chase KCM but was still inferior to the great speed of the Yellow Flash. You cant chase someone who can teleport away. And that was the point - travel speed. Teleportation is greater than Shunshin. 

How can you explain to me that Bee could react to Minato and Hachibi's tentacle was faster than Minato's strike?



> or that means kishi writes manga statements for the LOLZ which serves no purpose.



Yeah - Third Hokage is the most powerful among The Hokage. More powerful than prime SM Hashirama. Because Kishimoto "never makes statements for LOLZ".



> its also absolutely retarded when you use feats as a basis to say A got much faster or faster considering young A only display was against one person portrayed as faster than him



Since when it is absolutely retarded to think that a person cant stay the same after 17 years of training? Young Ei displayed enough to say that adult Ei was faster. Adult Ei's Raiton was thicker, adult Ei had tailed beast level chakra. And can you explain to me why young Bee could react to young Ei's max speed, but was easily beaten by Adult Ei's V1?



> Bijuu chakra levels? C is a sensor as well why wasnt he shitting himself at A chakra levels? why expect minato not giving 2 shits about that means A didnt have bijuu chakra levels



Maybe because C knew Raikage for a long time and Karin didnt? Minato should have had at least some response to Ei's chakra levels, but he didnt have any.



> karin was impressed true. however A is also impossibly fast to her while A is nothign but slower than minato to minato.



She was impressed by his chakra levels at that time, not by his speed.


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## Icegaze (Jul 13, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> NarutoX28 already explained to you everything. So did i.
> 
> And KCM Naruto has way better striking speed feats than Minato. There is more than one feat to counter Yamato's statement. Hell, even Hachibi's tentacle can move faster than Minato's strike. Young Bee could react to Minato's striking speed, when adult Bee saw only a yellow flash when KCM Naruto stroke Kisame.



what striking feats? u have yet to show me. punching kisame? yh that has to do with him being able to use shunshin and get point blank

so I hope u not claiming if minato had a mark close to kisame that kisame would have reacted to minato attack



> Minato teleported at Ei's back. KCM Naruto outpaced Ei's fastest punch with a Shunshin. Also, young Bee could react to Minato's and young Ei's speed. Hachibi's tentacle moved faster than Minato's strike.
> 
> So, KCM Naruto's feat was more impressive.



bee wasn't there to block though 

Naruto also couldn't even escape and face A. he couldn't turn round



> Kishimoto never said that KCM Naruto's striking speed was inferior to that of Minato. He said that RCM could chase KCM but was still inferior to the great speed of the Yellow Flash. You cant chase someone who can teleport away. And that was the point - travel speed. Teleportation is greater than Shunshin.



well it is. so if minato can always get to any location before Naruto. its common sense minato would be able to hit a target before Naruto does 



> How can you explain to me that Bee could react to Minato and Hachibi's tentacle was faster than Minato's strike?



interception. same way u give me a BS excuse of 8th gate gai slowing down despite him having no reason to



> Yeah - Third Hokage is the most powerful among The Hokage. More powerful than prime SM Hashirama. Because Kishimoto "never makes statements for LOLZ".



manga scan please. 



> Since when it is absolutely retarded to think that a person cant stay the same after 17 years of training? Young Ei displayed enough to say that adult Ei was faster. Adult Ei's Raiton was thicker, adult Ei had tailed beast level chakra. And can you explain to me why young Bee could react to young Ei's max speed, but was easily beaten by Adult Ei's V1?



shunshin= chakra quantity+ control. explain how getting a better physique would improve his chakra quantity and control when his chakra quantity is based on his genetics. and control could have already been at its peak. 

easily beaten by adult V1? u mean when they went lariat and he smacked him to the ground? 
not sure I get u



> Maybe because C knew Raikage for a long time and Karin didnt? Minato should have had at least some response to Ei's chakra levels, but he didnt have any.



why he had no response to far greater chakra levels. why would A somehow be different? perhaps because mianto heard he is super fast

considering we know what speed is based on. chakra quantity and control. makes sense that he would have huge chakra levels 



> She was impressed by his chakra levels at that time, not by his speed.[/QUOTE
> 
> yet she calls him impossibly fast. suuuure she wasn't impressed by that as well
> 
> ...


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## StarWanderer (Jul 22, 2015)

> what striking feats? u have yet to show me. punching kisame? yh that has to do with him being able to use shunshin and get point blank
> 
> so I hope u not claiming if minato had a mark close to kisame that kisame would have reacted to minato attack



A feat of fighting equally with Edo Itachi while weakened. A feat of making such a fast strike adult Bee could see only a yellow flash. A feat of striking Third Raikage, someone comparable to Raikage Ei in speed. Those are much better than feats Minato demonstrated. He has never displayed an excellent striking speed. 

That's not just a shunshin - Bee couldnt see Naruto's strike, not only his Shunshin movement. He could see only a yellow flash, yet he could perfectly react to Minato's striking speed and use hachibi's tentacle to protect Ei.

I dont think Kisame would have been able to react to Minato's strike if he is marked. But how that proves anything? If KCM Naruto can teleport to Kisame realy quick, Kisame wont be able to react to his striking speed.



> bee wasn't there to block though
> 
> Naruto also couldn't even escape and face A. he couldn't turn round



Minato couldnt turn around too. And? Minato just teleported to his back. KCM naruto reacted to faster Ei's strike and outshunshined him.



> well it is. so if minato can always get to any location before Naruto. its common sense minato would be able to hit a target before Naruto does



Thanks to teleportation. If a target is kilometers away and Minato teleported - of course he would be able to strike it before Naruto. 



> interception. same way u give me a BS excuse of 8th gate gai slowing down despite him having no reason to



It was not an interception. Should i bring here scans for you? Bee used Hachibi's tentacle right after Minato appeared behind Ei. Bee reacted to Minato's striking speed and hachibi's tentacle moved to that location before Minato could hit Ei. Hachibi's tentacle was faster than Minato's strike. That is pathetic compare to KCM Naruto's striking speed. 

That is not a BS excuse. And i already explained why, in another thread.



> manga scan please.



No problem.





> shunshin= chakra quantity+ control. explain how getting a better physique would improve his chakra quantity and control when his chakra quantity is based on his genetics. and control could have already been at its peak.
> 
> easily beaten by adult V1? u mean when they went lariat and he smacked him to the ground?
> not sure I get u



Since young Ei's Raiton was not as thick as that of Raikage Ei, it wasnt. 

When Ei wasnt trying to blitz around and wanted to show Bee his Lariat was more powerful. before that, V1 Ei had no problems with Bee.



> why he had no response to far greater chakra levels. why would A somehow be different? perhaps because mianto heard he is super fast
> 
> considering we know what speed is based on. chakra quantity and control. makes sense that he would have huge chakra levels



Because at that moment Minato has never met anyone with such chakra levels. At Fourth Shinobi World War, he knew what he is gonna face. 

Minato heared that he is super fast. But that doesnt prove Ei had tailed beast chakra levels when he was young. Super fast is not = tailed beast chakra levels. Huge chakra levels = tailed beast chakra levels,  *very huge* chakra levels. 



> yet she calls him impossibly fast. suuuure she wasn't impressed by that as well
> 
> super fast person= huge chakra levels
> 
> Gated users are the SOLE NINJAS who are super fast and don't have huge chakra levels



Gates gives an ability to get huge chakra levels, beyond Gates user's limits.


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> A feat of fighting equally with Edo Itachi while weakened. A feat of making such a fast strike adult Bee could see only a yellow flash. A feat of striking Third Raikage, someone comparable to Raikage Ei in speed. Those are much better than feats Minato demonstrated. He has never displayed an excellent striking speed.
> 
> That's not just a shunshin - Bee couldnt see Naruto's strike, not only his Shunshin movement. He could see only a yellow flash, yet he could perfectly react to Minato's striking speed and use hachibi's tentacle to protect Ei.
> 
> ...



simply question
any proof A was the only one who minato had fought with bijuu chakra levels?

 

love your fan fic mind

kishi says something in manga and repeats it in the DB but nope KCM naruto is somehow faster 

you can claim KCm naruto strikign speed is 100 times better. fact is since minato will always get to the target first it really doesnt matter now does it?

glad to have you back. miss the pointless debates


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## StarWanderer (Jul 23, 2015)

> simply question
> any proof A was the only one who minato had fought with bijuu chakra levels?



There is no proof Minato fought anyone with Bijuu chakra levels before his confrontation with young Ei. So no - he never fought anyone with Bijuu chakra levels before that.



> love your fan fic mind
> 
> kishi says something in manga and repeats it in the DB but nope KCM naruto is somehow faster



Does he always make statements about powers in manga? Nope. And, as i stated before - if there are no statements, we judge from performances. Maybe you can show me a proof that base Naruto had reaction speed as fast as that of his KCM counterpart? I wanna see that.



> you can claim KCm naruto strikign speed is 100 times better. fact is since minato will always get to the target first it really doesnt matter now does it?



Depends on whom he fights. His striking speed is his main problem. Because if he fights a sensor with far greater speed overall, for example, he can be countered right after he appeared before him, or behind. Plus, Minato has to throw a kunai in order to get to a target. 



> glad to have you back. miss the pointless debates



I was busy.


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> There is no proof Minato fought anyone with Bijuu chakra levels before his confrontation with young Ei. So no - he never fought anyone with Bijuu chakra levels before that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



<snip>
no proof he never did fight anyone without said chakra

though its even more retarded when you think about the fact that A was famous for super speed. why minato would be surprised by his chakra levels is beyond me. considering what shunshin entails 

statements are the author telling us what he wants us to understand from panels. to avoid the obvious panel squinting 

also ur logic is flawed. minato never faced anyone with said levels of chakra cuz we never saw it on panel

minato never had sex with kushina on panel..guess they never did. and naruto is a result of them staring into each other eyes 

yh and we have seen even kakashi can throw a kunai at omoyoton projectile speeds

everyone can throw an object quicker than they can move

even you.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

> <snip>
> no proof he never did fight anyone without said chakra



Do you know how debate works?

Well, even in a trial, you are not a killer if there is no proof you killed someone. *Do you understand that?* 

Minato has never, ever fought anyone with such a chakra level before confronting Ei, because there is no proof of that.



> though its even more retarded when you think about the fact that A was famous for super speed. why minato would be surprised by his chakra levels is beyond me. considering what shunshin entails



Minato has never had Bijuu chakra levels, yet, what a surprise - he was super fast! With super fast Shunshin at his disposal. Shunshin's speed also depends on mastery with Shunshin technique. 



> statements are the author telling us what he wants us to understand from panels. to avoid the obvious panel squinting



Kishimoto doesnt always make statements about power-ups and improvements in manga. Especially when those improvements are obvious.



> also ur logic is flawed. minato never faced anyone with said levels of chakra cuz we never saw it on panel



No proof he ever faced someone with those chakra levels - he never faced someone with those chakra levels. That's how debate works. In debates, we judge from facts, statements, feats and Databook information.

Flawed logic is to say that Minato fought anyone with Bijuu chakra levels because there is no proof he havent fought anyone with those chakra levels. 



> minato never had sex with kushina on panel..guess they never did. and naruto is a result of them staring into each other eyes



There is a proof they had sex - Naruto himself. Because he couldnt appear if they didnt have sex. Plus, they were married. 

However, there is completely no proof that Minato faced anyone with Bijuu chakra levels before his confrontation with Ei.



> yh and we have seen even kakashi can throw a kunai at omoyoton projectile speeds



Omyotons are faster than V2 Ei's Shunshin, or KCM Naruto's Shunshin?


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Minato shunshin is nothing compared to A tjough
And he is only super fast thanks to a space time JUtsu

A however attained such fame with pure speed quite obviously minato would expect his chakda to be through the roof 

Also he is a sensor . Don't see why he wouldn't have been able to tell off the bat 

Notice he always wasn't surprised by bee chakda levels . Despite bee cjakra level in base would be already well above his


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato shunshin is nothing compared to A tjough
> And he is only super fast thanks to a space time JUtsu
> 
> A however attained such fame with pure speed quite obviously minato would expect his chakda to be through the roof
> ...



Minato havent felt Hachibi's chakra. That's why he was very surprised. 



Maybe he havent used his sensor ability at that moment, maybe he couldnt feel Hachibi's chakra when it was completely inside of Bee's body.

And i highly doubt Minato thought Ei had tailed beast level chakra due to rumors about his "pretty fast attack".


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Slow child 
Can you mention any character who is super fast who doesn't have massive chakra 

Quite obvious if he is using shunshin he would have massive chakra levels 

Easy conclusion to make 

Gated users removing body limits are the only super fast characters who don't have massive chakra levels


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Slow child
> Can you mention any character who is super fast who doesn't have massive chakra
> 
> Quite obvious if he is using shunshin he would have massive chakra levels
> ...



But not necessary tailed beast chakra levels. And that's my point. Also, Minato said there were rumors Ei's *attack* was pretty fast. That, and the fact he was Third Raikage's son, may very well be the only things he heared about Ei.


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Again mention 2 super fast chRacteds who don't have tailed beast chakra levels or use gates then you would have a point 

A was fast . He a taijutsu based fighter , no mention of gates or St usage

Simple logic dictates his shunshin is super fast . Only way that happens tailed beast chakda levels


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Again mention 2 super fast chRacteds who don't have tailed beast chakra levels or use gates then you would have a point
> 
> A was fast . He a taijutsu based fighter , no mention of gates or St usage
> 
> Simple logic dictates his shunshin is super fast . Only way that happens tailed beast chakda levels



Have you read what i wrote above? I think you havent. Quick Shunshin doesnt mean chakra is automaticly tailed beast level. Minato was also rumored to be super fast. Tobirama was thought to be the fastest of his time. Yet none of them had tailed beast level chakra.


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

both used ST for movement 
None need tailed beast chakda levels

Minato heard about someone famous for his speed . Am saying tailed beast chakda levels would come as no surprise 

Same way A wasn't surprised Minato uses Hirashin to move


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> both used ST for movement
> None need tailed beast chakda levels
> 
> Minato heard about someone famous for his speed . Am saying tailed beast chakda levels would come as no surprise
> ...



We are talking about rumors. Minato heared that Ei is a son of The Third Raikage and that his attack is pretty fast. That's all he knew about Ei at that moment. I highly doubt from such a pure knowledge he could think Ei has tailed beast level chakra. 

Tobirama was famous for his speed, yet he never had tailed beast level chakra and Minato knew about him. He even copied his jutsu.


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## Icegaze (Jul 26, 2015)

Which means Minato knew Tobirama was fast due to Hirashin 
If Minato knew of A dad then all the more reason to expect A to be super fast 

Considering his dad was known to be fast but simply his hax body took lead on his fame 

In any case Minato not showing surprise hardly proves his chakra levels grew . Notice only Karin even commented on his levels not sasuke or jugo or suigetsu 

Impressing karin means nothing


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## StarWanderer (Jul 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Which means Minato knew Tobirama was fast due to Hirashin
> If Minato knew of A dad then all the more reason to expect A to be super fast
> 
> Considering his dad was known to be fast but simply his hax body took lead on his fame
> ...



But not to expect Ei to have tailed beast chakra levels. Minato was famous for his speed, even for his Shunshin, yet he never, ever had tailed beast chakra levels by himself. Shisui Uchiha was famous for his Shunshin, yet he never, ever had tailed beast chakra levels. Besides, only very few shinobi throughout the history had tailed beast chakra. 

So why do you think Minato would have thought about his chakra being tailed beast level only because he was a son of The Third Raikage and had pretty fast attack?

There is no proof after 17 years he stayed the same and it is pretty much unlogical. 

Kishimoto doesnt always draw objects in the same size and i understand the thing about some realy big objects, such as Kurama avatars, Perfect Susanoo, tailed beasts etc. But to draw a much thicker Raiton armor for Raikage Ei? It looks like Kishimoto did that on purpose.

Plus, V1 Raikage Ei dominated adult Bee without much of a problem, yet young Bee perfectly reacted to young Ei's top-speed.

And chakra doesnt stay the same. Take a look at Hashirama, for example. Do you think he had the same chakra level throught his lifetime?


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

The main issue is why do u expect Minato to show surprise on feeling bijuu chakra level 
What is it to him really? 

I mean if bijuu cjakra level even slightly registered with him he would have murdered himself on sensing juudara chakda


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## StarWanderer (Jul 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> The main issue is why do u expect Minato to show surprise on feeling bijuu chakra level
> What is it to him really?
> 
> I mean if bijuu cjakra level even slightly registered with him he would have murdered himself on sensing juudara chakda



The problem is - he knew whom he is fighting. He wasnt surprised about Juubidara's chakra, especially when he fought Juubi's Jin before and knew Madara is a legendary shinobi with an outstanding hype.

He fought only fodders before that confrontation. And he has never seen anyone with tailed beast chakra levels before. Plus, i highly doubt he expected that thanks to his very pure knowledge on Ei.

Why there was no response to Ei's chakra? For example "oh, such a huge chakra level", or something like that? No response at all.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> The problem is - he knew whom he is fighting. He wasnt surprised about Juubidara's chakra, especially when he fought Juubi's Jin before and knew Madara is a legendary shinobi with an outstanding hype.
> 
> He fought only fodders before that confrontation. And he has never seen anyone with tailed beast chakra levels before. Plus, i highly doubt he expected that thanks to his very pure knowledge on Ei.
> 
> Why there was no response to Ei's chakra? For example "oh, such a huge chakra level", or something like that? No response at all.



it impressed karin thats it, you are going on the basis of everyone being as easily impressed as karin

suigetsu didnt say anything nor did jugo. both have noticed when chakra levels are huge and mentioned it. despite not knowing what was going on in the battlefield. they picked up on juubi chakra and didnt go holly shit. 

expecting it or not..if minato felt threatened by it. he would have shown some level of concern instead. the only person that got nervous in the end was A


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> it impressed karin thats it, you are going on the basis of everyone being as easily impressed as karin
> 
> suigetsu didnt say anything nor did jugo. both have noticed when chakra levels are huge and mentioned it. despite not knowing what was going on in the battlefield. they picked up on juubi chakra and didnt go holly shit.
> 
> expecting it or not..if minato felt threatened by it. he would have shown some level of concern instead. the only person that got nervous in the end was A



Both Suigetsu and Jugo arent sensors, as i remember. 

Fought fodders all the time before confrontation, met a shinobi with pretty fast attack and tailed beast chakra levels (well, lets assume that) and had no response to that at all? 

Plus, why couldnt Kishimoto mention that Ei, even as a 17 years younger teenager, had tailed beast level chakra? 

And why young Bee could perfectly react to Ei's top speed, although adult Bee was manhandled by V1 Ei?


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

Because A having tail beast cjakra level is simply irrelevant to Minato 
It doesn't help him in the slightest 
Perhaps that's why mentioning it would have been wasteful 

Why hype his chakra level only for him to be Pawned by Minato 

Story writing wise that's weak 

Against sasuke it mattered 

Against Minato it simply did not . Despite his cjakra levels he didn't suffenly hold Minato beneath him

Also difficult to see how Minato would have improved his speed which was already as good as it would get . 

Unless u think some 20 year old man would get hettet reactions at 37 

In any case A <<< Minato by his admission and this is repeated in the DB

Kisame has tailed beast chakra levels . Hope you get that Minato 1 panels him


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

> Because A having tail beast cjakra level is simply irrelevant to Minato
> It doesn't help him in the slightest
> Perhaps that's why mentioning it would have been wasteful



How was it irrelevant? Minato was about to fight someone "with" tailed beast chakra level, someone he knows almost nothing about. 



> Why hype his chakra level only for him to be Pawned by Minato



To hype Minato's feat of defeating him even more. But Kishimoto has never tried to explain young Ei's power level.



> Against Minato it simply did not . Despite his cjakra levels he didn't suffenly hold Minato beneath him



Why? Kishimoto could hype Minato's feat even more than that.



> Also difficult to see how Minato would have improved his speed which was already as good as it would get .



His reaction speed, his movement speed, his Shunshin speed. All of these aspects could be improved, with training. Especially when his movement speed was so "great" that even young Bee could perfectly react to it with Hachibi's tail.



> Unless u think some 20 year old man would get hettet reactions at 37



Better Shunshin and overall chakra control, that's for sure. And age doesnt seem to matter a lot in Narutoverse. Plus, sometimes it happens that someone gains his prime in late 30-s. Take a look at Fabricio Werdum, current UFC heavyweight champion. He is 38 years old, yet is a lot better fighter than when he was younger. Take a look at Chuck Liddell. Do you know how old he was when he became a champion? Not a 20 years old boy, that's for sure. What about Floyd Mayweather? There are even more examples. Yeah - real world examples. But still, examples of the fact that sometimes age doesnt make you worse in physical aspects, especially when you train a lot.



> In any case A <<< Minato by his admission and this is repeated in the DB
> 
> Kisame has tailed beast chakra levels . Hope you get that Minato 1 panels him



We discussed that "admission". And i dont remember my arguements to be nullified.


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

> StarWanderer said:
> 
> 
> > How was it irrelevant? Minato was about to fight someone "with" tailed beast chakra level, someone he knows almost nothing about.
> ...


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

> how woudl tailed beast chakra level make a difference? kisame has tailed beast chakra level. how does that help him against minato exactly? would tailed beast chakra somehow help A hit minato. when minato can avoid him casually by letting go of a kunai?



It is not about help from such a huge chakra. Minato has never fought anyone realy strong before his confrontation with Ei. And then, he confronts a shinobi, who is a son of The Third Raikage and is known for a pretty fast attack, plus has tailed beast chakra level. Minato would have had some response to that, because he knew almost nothing about Ei, but felt tailed beast chakra level, which only very few shinobi in history had. But he didnt have any response. Kishimoto could hype Minato's feat by confirming that young Ei also had tailed beast chakra level, but he didnt. 



> kishi has wanked minato to the ends of the earth. no reason to carry on really. considering when A had those tailed beast levels he still said minato surpasses him



Not realy. Every, *EVERY* feat of Minato can be downplayed. Ei was young, Obito was young, amped Minato couldnt do the thing which Tobirama could do, Juubidama was slowed down by Hachibi, Hachibi's tail was faster than Minato's strike etc. 

He said that he is the fastest around now when Minato is dead. In other words, he said that, if Minato was still alive, he would have been faster.



> why would he need to. he spent his time doing that in the DB. have you read them. it makes me sick..



Yes i did. And even DB statements can be debated about their hype level and value in the debates. Because of the actual meaning of those statements.



> it doesnt matter how fast A shunshin is, he would still be slower than minato. if A felt he improved enough to be the fastest regardless of minato beign alive or not. he wont have mentioned minato death is the reason why he is the fastest. but rather he would say i have surpassed even your father.



I dont think you understood what i was talking about.



> i am not saying A didnt improve or couldnt improve. however if his improvements were relevant Kishi the author would mention it. he did so for onoki....he is faster than he was in his prime
> 
> why mention such for onoki but not for A? A improved so much yet still feels beneath a man who died 17 years ago.



Obito's improvement was relevant, yet Kishimoto has never made a statement about that, although Obito's improvement is obvious.



> no you ignored panels and put your trollign interpretation
> 
> A said minato> Me
> you claim he means if minato had lived he would have improved further, despite that not being in any scan at all
> ...



He said that *i am the fastest now when Minato is dead*. That means if he was still alive, he would have been the fastest. Minato is not a lazy person and that is the reason why he became Hokage.

Can you provide that DB statement?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Obito was a lot younger. Forced to try and finish the fight as soon as possible because of Kyubi. And likely lacked a spare eye for Izanagi. And Minato edged him out in a speed contest. It was a very close battle.
> 
> Imagine if Kyubi was alongside Obito fighting Minato. Don't think Minato would have been able to win that one.



Yup. **


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It is not about help from such a huge chakra. Minato has never fought anyone realy strong before his confrontation with Ei. And then, he confronts a shinobi, who is a son of The Third Raikage and is known for a pretty fast attack, plus has tailed beast chakra level. Minato would have had some response to that, because he knew almost nothing about Ei, but felt tailed beast chakra level, which only very few shinobi in history had. But he didnt have any response. Kishimoto could hype Minato's feat by confirming that young Ei also had tailed beast chakra level, but he didnt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







> Raiton Chakra Mode
> 
> Raiton Chakra collects on the body, it's a body invigoration ninjutsu. From inside the body lightning gushes out, the speed of ones nerve transmissions rises. The body is wrapped in lightning, the jutsu durability is like that of armor. The Raikages' application of it causes their combat power to rise considerably.
> 
> *It managed to chase Naruto's Bijuu Chakra Mode, however it was inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash*



do u want to guess who the yellow flash is? 

need me to hold your hand to and read it to you?

now can I have a statement implying A improved

obito improvement or threat level increase was mentioned by kabuto when he got the rinnegan so war arc obito>> previous versions of obito that's it


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

> do u want to guess who the yellow flash is?
> 
> need me to hold your hand to and read it to you?



Of course it was inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash. When they fought. 17 years before Ei's fight with KCM Naruto.


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Of course it was inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash. When they fought. 17 years before Ei's fight with KCM Naruto.



 it also said managed to chase KCM Naruto. are u now saying A Is faster than KCM Naruto

both terms were stated in the past as DB came after the manga 

its written clear as day 

minato>A

now where is ur kishi statement saying otherwise

ill wait


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

> it also said managed to chase KCM Naruto. are u now saying A Is faster than KCM Naruto



Nope. Because in the end, KCM Naruto overwhelmed Ei's speed.



> both terms were stated in the past as DB came after the manga
> 
> its written clear as day
> 
> ...



That statement says that Ei's Raiton was inferior compare to the great speed of Yellow Flash. Well, we knew that for a long time, since they fought. And when they fought, it was inferior. But they fought 17 years before Shippuden. 

All i'm saying is that a fight with Raikage Ei would have been a lot more difficult for Minato than a fight with a teenager Ei. 

There are no outright statements that "Raiton is inferior compare to the great speed of Yellow-Flash", or "however, Raiton is inferior to Hiraishin". No outright statements of Raiton's complete inferiority. It is said that Raiton *could* chase KCM, but *was* inferior to Yellow Flash's speed. We know that from the actual manga. Ei's Raiton was inferior to the speed of Minato when they fought. 



> obito improvement or threat level increase was mentioned by kabuto when he got the rinnegan so war arc obito>> previous versions of obito that's it



Rinnegan, however, does not increase speed in any way and does not give any precognition ability.


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

copy paste 

It *managed !!!!! PAST TENSE DUDE*to chase Naruto's Bijuu Chakra Mode, however it *was* PAST TENSE DUDE!!! inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash 

in short you have loads of bla bla and nothing from kishi supports it. 

he had A admit inferiority and then repeats it in the DB

I don't know what else u want from kishi. a rematch? how would that benefit his plot 

A improving is fine and dandy but he still cant touch minato. now unless u can provide a scan where A says I have surpassed him then your entire post is simply 

rinnegan is the advanced version of EMS

if MS gives greater insight than sharingan and EMS even greater than MS 

then rinnegan simply wipes the floor. kishi didn't have kabuto mention obito rinnegan as a threat for no reason but then again you like to argue with the author pointlessly


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> copy paste
> 
> It *managed !!!!! PAST TENSE DUDE*to chase Naruto's Bijuu Chakra Mode, however it *was* PAST TENSE DUDE!!! inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash
> 
> ...



Anyway, the fight itself would have been more difficult for Minato due to Raikage Ei being faster than his younger counterpart.

The fact it evolved from Madara's EMS (thanks to Indra's and Asura's chakra combined) doesnt mean it has all EMS traits. MS and EMS are evolved Sharingans, yet they cant copy techniques as a simple sharingan can. EMS is an evolved vertion of MS, yet it cant become dark after often usage. 

Plus, Rinnegan is in fact another dodjutsu. And Nagato never, ever used any kind of precognition. Plus, no manga statements, no DB statements, nothing.

Rinnegan doesnt have any kind of precognition, or speed boost.


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Anyway, the fight itself would have been more difficult for Minato due to Raikage Ei being faster than his younger counterpart.
> 
> The fact it evolved from Madara's EMS (thanks to Indra's and Asura's chakra combined) doesnt mean it has all EMS traits. MS and EMS are evolved Sharingans, yet they cant copy techniques as a simple sharingan can. EMS is an evolved vertion of MS, yet it cant become dark after often usage.
> 
> ...



yes more difficult suuure, but seeing how it wasn't an issue the first time nor several times after considering A felt minato couldn't be beat. I don't see how the improvement which u hype pointlessly would make a difference 

yh its an evolution which fails to have the traits of its predecessor. I guess MS forgets somethings of sharingan 

would u say MS cant copy jutsu?

loooool  the author disagrees with you. since the author called rinnegan a sharingan evolution on panel...I don't see how u didn't slap urself as u posted such bS.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

> yes more difficult suuure, but seeing how it wasn't an issue the first time nor several times after considering A felt minato couldn't be beat. I don't see how the improvement which u hype pointlessly would make a difference



Well, since there are also great reaction speed feats for Minato - yes, i dont think Raikage Ei would have won. But the fight itself would have been more difficult for Minato.



> yh its an evolution which fails to have the traits of its predecessor. I guess MS forgets somethings of sharingan



Neither MS, nor EMS has the ability to copy other techniques.



> would u say MS cant copy jutsu?



It never did, and there are no statements in either manga, or Databook.



> loooool the author disagrees with you. since the author called rinnegan a sharingan evolution on panel...I don't see how u didn't slap urself as u posted such bS.



I already explained why the fact it evolved from EMS doesnt prove anything. Sharingan can copy other techniques, yet evolved vertions of sharingan cant. EMS evolved from MS, yet does not fade like MS. And a reality example -  we evolved from apes, but we dont have *all* of their traits. 

Nagato has never demonstrated precognition with his Rinnegan. RT Madara has never demonstrated precognition with his Rinnegan, Obito has never demonstrated precognition with his Rinnegan. No manga statements, no Databook statements. So why should i slap myself? Maybe you should slap youself? Since the Rinnegan having any precognition, or speed boost, is a complete fanfic.

And since you love statements so much - bring any statement of Rinnegan having Sharingan's precognition, or any kind of speed boost.


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## Icegaze (Jul 29, 2015)

so MS looses the ability to copy jutsu
tsunade never walked on water i guess she drowns....poor kage who cant perform a genin feat


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## StarWanderer (Jul 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so MS looses the ability to copy jutsu
> tsunade never walked on water i guess she drowns....poor kage who cant perform a genin feat



There were so many situations where MS, or EMS user could copy other technique, yet none of MS, or EMS users could do so.

So either you prove MS and EMS users can copy other techniques, or stop using your own fanfic in our debate.


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## Icegaze (Jul 29, 2015)

so again MS looses sharingan basic abilities

also why on earth would you have MS jutsu and copy lesser techniques 



again like i said tsunade never walked on water, so i guess that means all u need to do is set the location to water and even karin woudl beat her


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## StarWanderer (Jul 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so again MS looses sharingan basic abilities
> 
> also why on earth would you have MS jutsu and copy lesser techniques
> 
> ...



Yep. 

Maybe due to MS's trait to dissappear, you know. A shinobi dont want his MS to dissappear, so he copies other jutsu, which wont be as exhausting as Susanoo, for example. 

Since she can focuse her chakra in her hands, i am sure she can do the same with her feets. 

And no proof of Rinnegan having any kind of precognition. Concession accepted.


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