# Kizaru VS Katakuri & Cracker



## Captain Altintop (Oct 31, 2017)

No Restrictions.
Serious Fight.
1oo m. Distance.
They fight in the Seducing Woods.

I think that Kizaru beats Kata with *mid* ( very high ) diff. and Cracker with *mid* ( mid ) diff. (similar to Doffy) individually.
Kata is closer to Jozu/Cracker level than Marco level, since I believe Marco would push Kizaru to high ( mid ) diff.

Is that enough to overwhelm Kizaru?


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## Shrike (Oct 31, 2017)

Two Yonko Commanders would probably be able to take on an Admiral. Probably. So even then I would be hesitant to give them the win, but in this match-up, Cracker wouldn't be a big factor. Kizaru is all about speed and one hit landed on Cracker's real body is GG. He would get kicked at the 'speed of light', and Katakuri would follow him later.


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## savior2005 (Oct 31, 2017)

we saw how 2 commanders did against akainu.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 3 | Optimistic 2


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## Gohara (Nov 1, 2017)

The team wins with mid to high (closer to mid than high) difficulty in my opinion.

Lord Katakuri is physically superior to Gear 3rd Luffy who has shown to be physically superior to Fujitora.  So unless Kizaru is significantly physically superior to Fujitora then I would give Lord Katakuri an edge in that aspect.

Defensively they seem comparable as both have amazing evasive skills.

Lord Katakuri's Haki is more impressive so far but Kizaru might have more feats later on that could change that.

Kizaru likely has superior speed although their difference in speed might be made up through Lord Katakuri's amazing Observation Haki.

Skills wise they seem comparable.  Also we've seen 3 First Mate vs. Admiral confrontations so far and all 3 are relatively even confrontations with a couple of them even being slightly in favor of the First Mates.  There are also multiple characters who are weaker than Lord Katakuri whose feats are comparable to Kizaru's.  So I have yet to see any reason to give Kizaru an edge against Lord Katakuri.

Kizaru might have an edge against Lord Cracker individually but even that would be a great match up.  So combined Lord Katakuri and Lord Cracker win.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Nekochako (Nov 1, 2017)

At first i would say the team but thinking about it Kizaru can just overwhelm Cracker with his speed and power and then have a decent fight with Katakuri. Kizaru wins.


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 1, 2017)

Brook said:


> At first i would say the team but thinking about it Kizaru can just blitz Cracker with his speed and power and then have a decent fight with Katakuri. Kizaru wins.



Has Kizaru blitzed anyone on commander level in the manga?


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## Nekochako (Nov 1, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Has Kizaru blitzed anyone on commander level in the manga?



Don't think so but he shouldn't take too long to hit the real body and Cracker's endurance would be too low for Kizaru's light.


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 1, 2017)

Brook said:


> Don't think so but he shouldn't take too long to hit the real body and Cracker's endurance would be too low for Kizaru's light.



Kizaru has never shown the ability to low diff a commander like you are saying here. He has never speed blitzed anyone on that level. How will he get to the real body? The haki shields will block any lazers.

Cracker fought for 12 hours with no hint of fatigue, just annoyance, but his endurance is low?


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## Nekochako (Nov 1, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Kizaru has never shown the ability to low diff a commander like you are saying here. He has never speed blitzed anyone on that level. How will he get to the real body? The haki shields will block any lazers.
> 
> Cracker fought for 12 hours with no hint of fatigue, just annoyance, but his endurance is low?



Oh wrong word, i meant durability. What do you think about his durability vs Kizaru's laser? As for the clones can't he just use haki himself to crush them? His laser rain/magatama is also a good way to take out the clones so he can wreck Cracker's real body.


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 1, 2017)

Brook said:


> Oh wrong word, i meant durability. What do you think about his durability vs Kizaru's laser? As for the clones can't he just use haki himself to crush them?



I don't think the lazers are penetrating the haki shield when it required a Kong Gun to break. Also his lighsaber didn't burn Rayleigh's CoA coated sword. The interaction with the shield should be the same imo.

Kizaru's attack with haki would need the force of a Kong Gun to break. I don't think we've seen him having physical strength on that level. Even if he does break it, Cracker would just make more biscuits. He would be continually breaking biscuits. So no, this one shot blitz you were talking about is unrealistic. Cracker isn't a pre-skip SN that Kizaru can blitz.


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## Nekochako (Nov 1, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> I don't think the lazers are penetrating the haki shield when it required a Kong Gun to break. Also his lighsaber didn't burn Rayleigh's CoA coated sword. The interaction with the shield should be the same imo.
> 
> Kizaru's attack with haki would need the force of a Kong Gun to break. I don't think we've seen him having physical strength on that level. Even if he does break, it Cracker would just make more biscuits. He would be continually breaking biscuits. So no, this one shot blitz you were talking about is unrealistic. Cracker isn't a pre-skip SN that Kizaru can blitz.



I'm thinking more along the lines off Zoro VS Pica rather then SN VS Kizaru. It would take some time for Kizaru to finish him because off his clone power which won't be dealt with that fast but it would be a easy enough job in the end. Basically a low-mid diff fight.


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 1, 2017)

Brook said:


> I'm thinking more along the lines off Zoro VS Pica rather then SN VS Kizaru. It would take some time for Kizaru to finish him because off his clone power but it would be a easy enough job in the end. Basically a low-mid diff fight.



Based on what? I'll ask again. Where has Kizaru blitzed or low diffed anyone on Cracker's level? How are his lasers going to penetrate the haki shield? How would he overpower the shield with a physical attack?

Well at least you went from 'Cracker gets blitzed' to ''It would take some time'' .


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## Nekochako (Nov 1, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Based on what? I'll ask again. Where has Kizaru blitzed or low diffed anyone on Cracker's level? How are his lasers going to penetrate the haki shield? How would he overpower the shield with a physical attack?
> 
> Well at least you went from 'Cracker gets blitzed' to ''It would take some time'' .



So you think Cracker would give Kizaru more then mid diff or are you just misunderstanding me? Maybe blitz was the wrong word to use. Him taking time to deal with the clones because they won't be dealt with that easily and taking out his real body with fair ease was what i was thinking, basically like Zoro VS Pica.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 1, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Kizaru has never shown the ability to low diff a commander like you are saying here. He has never speed blitzed anyone on that level. How will he get to the real body? The haki shields will block any lazers.
> 
> Cracker fought for 12 hours with no hint of fatigue, just annoyance, but his endurance is low?



Biscuits arent blocking this.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 1, 2017)

Brook said:


> So you think Cracker would give Kizaru more then mid diff or are you just misunderstanding me? Maybe blitz was the wrong word to use. Him taking time to deal with the clones because they won't be dealt with that easily and taking out his real body with fair ease was what i was thinking, basically like Zoro VS Pica.


You are saying he would get to his body relatively easily. I've brought up that we have seen with Rayleigh's sword that CoA nullifies his lasers. So how would he easily get to his body if the lasers are not effective?

You said Kizaru can overcome it with haki. I indicated that you need Kong Gun level power to break them with haki. Has Kizaru shown that kind of physical power? And no standing on WB's bisento is not a power feat on that level before you go there.

Also it's not like Cracker's real body is a joke as he could cut through G4. 

Depends on what you mean by mid diff and high diff. 




Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Biscuits arent blocking this.



Holla at me when that works on a commander level character that isn't distracted.


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## Nekochako (Nov 1, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> You are saying he would get to his body relatively easily. I've brought up that we have seen with Rayleigh's sword that CoA nullifies his lasers. So how would he easily get to his body if the lasers are not effective?
> 
> You said Kizaru can overcome it with haki. I indicated that you need Kong Gun level power to break them with haki. Has Kizaru shown that kind of physical power? And no standing on WB's bisento is not a power feat on that level before you go there.
> 
> ...



Well why can't Kizaru have the physical power off a kong gun? He is a trained admiral.

Cracker's real body is not superweak but he is clearly not the most tolerant to painful attacks like Kizaru's lasers.

Mid diff: What i said.
High diff: Actually giving your opponent a struggle. Doubt Cracker can do this to Kizaru.


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 1, 2017)

Brook said:


> Well why can't Kizaru have the physical power off a kong gun? He is a trained admiral.
> 
> Cracker's real body is not superweak but he is clearly not the most tolerant to painful attacks like Kizaru's lasers.
> 
> ...



Mate this is the battledome. Here you have to argue using feats to substantiate your opinion. You have not brought up any feats to support your view or addressed any of the ones I brought up. 

It seems you want to argue that you think Admirals are at a certain level and Cracker is far from that level. Not backing it up is fine for the Library where people can shitpost as much as they want, but not here. That's why featless chacacters are banned because we use feats to back up our opinions. So far you haven't cited any to support your view.


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## Tenma (Nov 1, 2017)

Kizaru loses, he can decisively beat each commander individually but together he'd get overwhelmed.


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## Nekochako (Nov 1, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Mate this is the battledome. Here you have to argue using feats to substantiate your opinion. You have not brought up any feats to support your view or addressed any of the ones I brought up.
> 
> It seems you want to argue that you think Admirals are at a certain level and Cracker is far from that level. Not backing it up is fine for the Library where people can shitpost as much as they want, but not here. That's why featless chacacters are banned because we use feats to back up our opinions. So far you haven't cited any to support your view.



Well then i guess i have to be a coward and ask someone to help me back up my opinion if me just thinking Cracker is not strong enough to push Kizaru to high diff because the yonko commanders are just not at the level off the admirals is not enough for you. 

I have one argument left but that one will cause another yonko vs admiral shitstorm so better not use it.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 1, 2017)

Brook said:


> Well then i guess i have to be a coward and ask someone to help me back up my opinion if me just thinking Cracker is not strong enough to push Kizaru to high diff because the yonko commanders are just not at the level off the admirals is not enough for you.



Oh don't you worry I'm sure Admiral Kizaru will be here in short order with a post like:

'' Kizaru low-diffs Cracker, possibly neg. He has feats, hype and portrayal that put him far above Cracker. He fought on par with the WSM for gods sake''

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Nekochako (Nov 1, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Oh don't you worry I'm sure Admiral Kizaru will be here in short order with a post like:
> 
> '' Kizaru low-diffs Cracker, possibly neg. He has feats, hype and portrayal that put him far above Cracker. He fought on par with the WSM for gods sake''



But you will just tell him that that is not proof.  Someone has too come with hard evidence. Oh well maybe we just have to see Kizaru fight again to be sure.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 1, 2017)

Brook said:


> But you will just tell him that that is not proof.  Someone has too come with hard evidence. Oh well maybe we just have to see Kizaru fight again to be sure.



True. Maybe Donquixote will take up the challenge.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ultimate Ningen (Nov 1, 2017)

Kizaru headshots them both with lightbeam

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 1, 2017)

Commanders win extreme diff


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 1, 2017)

The commanders defeat him with high-diff.
I can't see an admiral defeating most combinations of the top commanders. I'd say most because Smoothie looks very incompetent at this point and might even be weaker than Cracker. The combinations like Marco/Katakuri or Marco/Jozu would defeat an admiral with mid-diff at most. Something like Vista and Cracker can probably go either way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Nov 1, 2017)

Brook said:


> At first i would say the team but thinking about it Kizaru can just overwhelm Cracker with his speed and power and then have a decent fight with Katakuri. Kizaru wins.



The thing is, though, even Gear 4th Luffy's speed couldn't outpace Lord Cracker to the point that he could get around all of his defenses.  Kizaru might or might not be faster than Gear 4th Luffy going from one point to another but from what we've seen so far Gear 4th Luffy arguably has superior mobility because he doesn't have to stop between points, he can continuously zip and zap around the battlefield like Bellamy except with significantly superior speed.

Furthermore what you're saying here assumes that Lord Katakuri and Lord Cracker just stand around and allow Kizaru to do all that.  Gear 4th Luffy is one of if not arguably the fastest character in overall mobility that we've seen so far and getting around Lord Cracker's defense for him is already questionable but having a character as skilled as Lord Katakuri getting in his way too?



Brook said:


> Oh wrong word, i meant durability. What do you think about his durability vs Kizaru's laser? As for the clones can't he just use haki himself to crush them? His laser rain/magatama is also a good way to take out the clones so he can wreck Cracker's real body.



Kizaru's Devil Fruit Abilities are some of the best in the series but even Pre Time Skip Supernova level characters have withstood Kizaru's lasers.  Lord Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers have amazing defense even being able to block Gear 3rd Luffy's Techniques without much of a problem.  Gear 3rd Luffy while spamming his Techniques is capable of destroying an Island sized Ship.  The idea of Kizaru's lasers getting through Lord Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers is questionable at best and even if on the chance that they can after a lot of spamming of Techniques doing so before Lord Katakuri and Lord Cracker land a lot of Techniques on Kizaru is very unlikely.



Brook said:


> Well why can't Kizaru have the physical power off a kong gun? He is a trained admiral.



Gear 3rd Luffy has shown physical superiority to Fujitora and Gear 4th Luffy is significantly physically superior to Gear 3rd Luffy so the idea of Kizaru even being in the same league as Gear 4th Luffy in physical strength seems very unlikely in my opinion.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Biscuits arent blocking this.



Gear 3rd Luffy spamming his Techniques can destroy an Island sized Ship, destroying a small part of one Island in comparison isn't really all that impressive, and Gear 3rd Luffy's Techniques have come no where near to getting around Lord Cracker's defense.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 1, 2017)

Gohara said:


> The thing is, though, even Gear 4th Luffy's speed couldn't outpace Lord Cracker to the point that he could get around all of his defenses.  Kizaru might or might not be faster than Gear 4th Luffy going from one point to another but from what we've seen so far Gear 4th Luffy arguably has superior mobility because he doesn't have to stop between points, he can continuously zip and zap around the battlefield like Bellamy except with significantly superior speed.
> 
> Furthermore what you're saying here assumes that Lord Katakuri and Lord Cracker just stand around and allow Kizaru to do all that.  Gear 4th Luffy is one of if not arguably the fastest character in overall mobility that we've seen so far and getting around Lord Cracker's defense for him is already questionable but having a character as skilled as Lord Katakuri getting in his way too?
> 
> ...



Yea that scene is grossly exaggerated by most

Fact of the matter is luffy spammed Elehpant Gun Gatling FOR A LONG ASS TIME. And at the end of it Noah was just fine. It was no where close to destroying all of noah which is just wood. 

Also Elephant gun gatling>>>>>>Elephant Gun. 

Lastly your comparing a Single Laser to a extended barrage of punches not a accurate comparison in the first place. YnK would be a more accurate comparison and Ynk would destroy noah way before EGG.


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## Gohara (Nov 1, 2017)

Maybe but that was also a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy in the disadvantage of matching up against a character while in the sea.  Even with those several disadvantages he still did that to an Island sized Ship.

As for your other point I respectfully disagree.  After seeing the beginning of Post Time Skip Luffy vs. 1 PX I'm not convinced that Pre Time Skip Supernova level characters would be able to withstand Gear 3rd Luffy's Techniques any easier than Kizaru's laser.

Feats wise Kizaru hasn't done anything close to destroying an Island sized object.  Obviously that's not to say that he couldn't, I'm sure if Kizaru stood around and spammed lasers for a while he could.  However there's not really anything that makes his destructive capabilities seem like they're on a superior level compared to Gear 3rd Luffy's.  Yet to get around Lord Cracker's defense a character has to have destructive capabilities that are at least around the same league as Gear 4th Luffy's while also having superior overall mobility to Gear 4th Luffy.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 1, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Maybe but that was also a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy in the disadvantage of matching up against a character while in the sea.  Even with those several disadvantages he still did that to an Island sized Ship.
> 
> As for your other point I respectfully disagree.  After seeing the beginning of Post Time Skip Luffy vs. 1 PX I'm not convinced that Pre Time Skip Supernova level characters would be able to withstand Gear 3rd Luffy's Techniques any easier than Kizaru's laser.
> 
> Feats wise Kizaru hasn't done anything close to destroying an Island sized object.  Obviously that's not to say that he couldn't, I'm sure if Kizaru stood around and spammed lasers for a while he could.  However there's not really anything that makes his destructive capabilities seem like they're on a superior level compared to Gear 3rd Luffy's.  Yet to get around Lord Cracker's defense a character has to have destructive capabilities that are at least around the same league as Gear 4th Luffy's while also having superior overall mobility to Gear 4th Luffy.



Indeed Elehpant Gun gatling is impressive Aoe but having Strong Aoe is not as effective as concentrated attacks when breaking through strong defenses. Kizarus lasers are highly concentrated aka lasers lol. Its doesnt need the same energy output to break through Crackers giant biscuit shields. Same principle with cutting attacks zoro would have a much easier time getting passed the biscuits then luffy. 

Should go without saying that a Gear 3 punch overkills any supernova by quite a lot. Kizaru is capble of hurting the WSM and fighting the first mate of the Pirate king. Weakend as they may be its still more impressive then blocking a elephant gun from Luffy. 

Unless your trying to argue that kizaru does not have any attacks on the level of Kong Gun i dont see how kizaru will have a hard time with cracker. Im pretty sure we both agree that kizaru is one of the fastest guys on the planet and he does not have to worry about his stamina like luffy did. 

Obviously in this fight cracker has big bro katakuri to help so he wont get his ass kicked. But in a 1v1 i dont see much of what cracker can do besides stall, and crackers not winning a stamina battle with a admiral.


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## Gohara (Nov 2, 2017)

It's true that Luffy likely needs to use more energy to use a Gear 3rd Technique than Kizaru does to use one laser but Gear 3rd Luffy still has superior offense to one of Kizaru's lasers and even spamming Gear 3rd Techniques Luffy hasn't come anywhere near getting around Lord Cracker's defense.  So I don't see any reason to assume that Kizaru can get around Lord Cracker's defense through his offensive Techniques.

Whereas Lord Cracker has shown pretty good offense in his own right, overpowering Gear 3rd Luffy without much of a problem.  Kizaru has great defense as well.  So while I'm not necessarily suggesting that Kizaru wouldn't win, I do think that Lord Cracker can at least put up a great match up against Kizaru.  I can't think of any way for Kizaru to win that match up with any less than around high difficulty if even that when Lord Cracker has easily guarded against superior offense and comparable speed.

I don't know about stamina.  Feats wise Pre Time Skip Akainu and Aokiji have the best stamina feats so far.  However Lord Jack has shown that he can be in match ups for around 5 days without much of an issue.  So Lord Jack can arguably be in match ups for significantly more than around 5 days, and Lord Cracker is at least comparable to Lord Jack.

Plus as you said there's still Lord Katakuri.  I don't see any Admiral besting that team.


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## DA hawk (Nov 2, 2017)

Duo commanders. No need for a discussion


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## Akitō (Nov 2, 2017)

The Commanders win. Two vs. one is a big advantage and Katakuri should be able to give Kizaru a high-diff on his own.


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## Samehadaman (Nov 2, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Has Kizaru blitzed anyone on commander level in the manga?

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## FakeTaxi1738 (Nov 2, 2017)

Gohara said:


> The thing is, though, even Gear 4th Luffy's speed couldn't outpace Lord Cracker to the point that he could get around all of his defenses. Kizaru might or might not be faster than Gear 4th Luffy going from one point to another but from what we've seen so far Gear 4th Luffy arguably has superior mobility because he doesn't have to stop between points, he can continuously zip and zap around the battlefield like Bellamy except with significantly superior speed.


Kizaru can do this and he obviously has other technique.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 3, 2017)

That weed smoker isn't even looking at WB.


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## Gohara (Nov 3, 2017)

True but that doesn't necessarily disagree with anything that I'm saying.  Obviously Kizaru is one of the fastest characters in the series.  In terms of pure movement speed moving from one point to another he might or might not even have superior speed to Gear 4th Luffy.  However Gear 4th Luffy likely has superior overall mobility as he can zip and zap without having to stop like Kizaru seems to and also lacks the offensive firepower that Gear 4th Luffy has which he would need to get around Lord Cracker's defense.


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## Gohara (Nov 3, 2017)

@ Samehadaman.

I could be wrong but I doubt that Seraphoenix is including an ill and significantly battle worn Old Whitebeard's character who is referred to as being slower than usual by Marco even prior to being that battle worn.


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## Samehadaman (Nov 3, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Samehadaman.
> 
> I could be wrong but I doubt that Seraphoenix is including an ill and significantly battle worn Old Whitebeard's character who is referred to as being slower than usual by Marco even prior to being that battle worn.



Seraphoenix is your Admiral chasing buddy  so you are obviously correct. But I was posting for the benefit of everyone else.
It's Whitebeard with his face still on, aka the same Whitebeard that landed the two punches on Akainu and much stronger Whitebeard than the one who still managed to clock Blackbeard. But I'm sure Cracker >>>> Whitebeard there.
Cracker is Lord Cracker btw.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Friendly 1


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 3, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Samehadaman.
> 
> I could be wrong but I doubt that Seraphoenix is including an ill and significantly battle worn Old Whitebeard's character who is referred to as being slower than usual by Marco even prior to being that battle worn.



True. WB didn't even attempt to dodge anything at that point, given the condition he was in.



Samehadaman said:


> Seraphoenix is your Admiral chasing buddy  so you are obviously correct. But I was posting for the benefit of everyone else.
> It's Whitebeard with his face still on, aka the same Whitebeard that landed the two punches on Akainu and much stronger Whitebeard than the one who still managed to clock Blackbeard. But I'm sure Cracker >>>> Whitebeard there.
> Cracker is Lord Cracker btw.



My name tastes nice in your mouth doesn't it? 

WB at MF didn't even try to dodge attacks because he couldn't. Marco did better than him against Kizaru in terms of handling speed. That's how nerfed his CoO was. Ordinarily what Kizaru did would never have happened against a stabilised WB. But yeah post a picture of what looks like a corpse.


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## Gohara (Nov 3, 2017)

@ Samahadaman.

I don't see how any of that changes the significant reduction in reaction and speed based skills because of Whitebeard's character being ill and significantly battle worn at the time.  That doesn't prevent his character from punching another character.

I mean why would Seraphoenix include characters who are ill and significantly battle worn?  It should go without saying that only fully healthy characters would be included or at least characters whose level of reaction and speed based skills haven't obviously been significantly reduced as is the case here, no?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 3, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Samahadaman.
> 
> I don't see how any of that changes the significant reduction in reaction and speed based skills because of Whitebeard's character being ill and significantly battle worn at the time.  That doesn't prevent his character from punching another character.
> 
> I mean why would Seraphoenix include characters who are ill and significantly battle worn?  It should go without saying that only fully healthy characters would be included or at least characters whose level of reaction and speed based skills haven't obviously been significantly reduced as is the case here, no?



Whitebeards the WSM. 

Even in a weakend state he still shits on Cracker a yonkou commander. 

Thats samahadas point.


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## Doskoi Panda (Nov 3, 2017)

Kizaru. Surprised this is even a question.

The commanders don't approach an admirals level.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Dunno (Nov 3, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Samehadaman.
> 
> I could be wrong but I doubt that Seraphoenix is including an ill and significantly battle worn Old Whitebeard's character who is referred to as being slower than usual by Marco even prior to being that battle worn.


Are you insinuating that Lord Katakuri and Lord Cracker are stronger than Earl Whitebeard?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Milkydean (Nov 3, 2017)

Strongest doesn't mean the fastest or have the best reaction time.Just saying.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gohara (Nov 3, 2017)

@ Doflamingo and Dunno.

I’m not making any claims about who’s more skilled.  I’m simply saying that the comparison isn’t necessarily valid because Seraphoenix is obviously only including characters whose skills aren’t significantly reduced at the time.  Furthermore we’re not even talking about overall skills, we’re talking about reaction and speed based skills.

However what basis are either of you even using to rank an ill and significantly battle worn Old Whitebeard?  All we know is that version of Whitebeard’s character isn’t in the same league as a fully healthy Old Whitebeard.  We have no idea how he compares to top Yonkou Commander level characters.  Using his title doesn’t really suggest anything because the title is obviously at least in reference to a fully healthy Old Whitebeard.  It might even refer to his prime but that’s besides the point.


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## Samehadaman (Nov 3, 2017)

Gohara said:


> However what basis are either of you even using to rank an ill and significantly battle worn Old Whitebeard?
> We have no idea how he compares to top Yonkou Commander level characters.  Using his title doesn’t really suggest anything because the title is obviously at least in reference to a fully healthy Old Whitebeard.




This is a good point. In Marineford, old and wounded Whitebeard only interacted with scrubs like Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, as he faced down the entire Marine force at the head of an historical event.
We have absolutely no basis to infer a single clue upon which to reference how that Whitebeard might compare to a behemoth like Lord Cracker.

As Lord Seraphoenix obviously meant only fully healthy people can be admitted into the Lordly hall of comparison. Surely this infirm Newgate fellow who never interacted with a Lord on panel has no validity being used in this discussion.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Milkydean (Nov 3, 2017)

If people would just stop trying to be all witty and sarcastic they'd notice how big of a flaw WB is as an example in this case is. WB ran the whole show with the help of his extreme endurance and destructive abilities not with his durability, speed or reaction time. Squardo managed to stab him, he couldn't even use CoO. Why give his example at all? Next thing you know you'd be saying those fodders who hurt WB with bullets and swords can do the same to a commander.


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## Gohara (Nov 3, 2017)

@ Samehadaman.

That's circular reasoning though.  You're using Whitebeard's character as an example against an Admiral, but then when we point out that it's a significantly hindered version of Whitebeard's character, you say that it doesn't matter because he can still do all those things against an Admiral.

Also, and again, it's not about overall skills anyways.  It's about reaction and speed based skills which Marco explicitly states are not around the same level as usual for Whitebeard's character.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Great Potato (Nov 4, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Kizaru's Devil Fruit Abilities are some of the best in the series but even Pre Time Skip Supernova level characters have withstood Kizaru's lasers.



When was this? If you mean Basil Hawkins then he didn't really withstand the lasers, he transferred the damage he would have gotten to other people with his hax voodoo doll devil fruit, once he ran out of dolls to take the hits for him he got pierced clean through like everyone else.


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## Gohara (Nov 4, 2017)

Hawkins' Crew Members state that Hawkins had already taken damage prior to kicking him because they said he can't take that much damage from Kizaru or he'll be defeated, but it's not just that.  Hawkins still withstands the kick as he was able to get up and escape.  Plus it's not just Hawkins.  Urouge not only withstood one of Kizaru's lasers from a PX but he also withstands one of Kizaru's kicks as well.  The same goes for Apoo and Drake.  None of those characters were incapacitated as they were able to get up and escape.  A significantly battle worn Luffy also withstands Techniques from Kizaru in The Marineford War Arc.  Kizaru's Devil Fruit Abilities overall are no less powerful than that of the other Admirals' in my opinion or at least not in most cases but that's specifically in reference to offensive based skills.


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## Shanks (Nov 5, 2017)

Cracker and Kata destroys Kizaru. Like wtf is With with this generation.

Latest chapter shows Kata is every bit as strong as Marco.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 5, 2017)

Kata > Marco


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## Canute87 (Nov 5, 2017)

Kizaru spams his light powers and the one to touch cracker makes him squeal like a bitch.

Katakuri gets taken out.


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## Mercurius (Nov 11, 2017)

Team.


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## Magentabeard (Nov 11, 2017)

Cracker does not get blitzed, he can keep up with G4 and Katakuri can read Kizaru's moves with COO. Katakuri mid diffed G4 Luffy at worst so he is Marco level without a doubt now. Team wins high diff.


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## o0Fujitora0o (Nov 12, 2017)

Kizaru wins


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## DA hawk (Nov 12, 2017)

I'm reconsidering my position...

I have a hard time not seeing Kizaru get past the BS with his AOE and speed, thus Cracker might get one-shotted here, after that Kizaru can take on Kata 1v1. But then again katakuri can anticipate such attack with his CoO.

Aaaah screw it, idk!


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## DoctorLaw (Nov 12, 2017)

Kizaru wins, high dif. Admirals are on the same level, and he stood as equals with the other admirals blocking WB’s attack. 

His regular kicks are strong enough to blow up massive areas, he can fly, and he has powerful ranged attacks. He is also one of the fastest characters, capable of something close to light speed. How do Cracker and Katakuri even touch him? He flys above and spams powerful light beams. 

Cracker fought Luffy for 11 hours with Nami making it rain. You know what that means? That means Cracker himself wasn’t strong enough to finish off Luffy during that time, and his sword attacks at the end of their fight couldn’t even hurt Luffy. His biscuit soldiers don’t stand a chance against Kizaru’s offense, Cracker would have to fight Kizaru himself, and his inability to penetrate Luffy’s defenses doesn’t bode well in a fight against an admiral.

Katakuri will fare better, I’ll admit that, but he still has no answer for Kizaru’s firepower, and his awakening is pointless if it can’t even touch Kizaru.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 12, 2017)

A single admiral can't even one-shot someone of Jinbei's caliber without assistance from another admiral, and he was also running away to protect Luffy at that point. Jinbei previously showed the ability to at least temporarily stall Akainu by intercepting the magma fist with his bare hands. He wasn't pushed aside like a fodder, either. Cracker is on another level compared to Jinbei, while Katakuri is another level above Cracker. Kizaru isn't winning against these two at once. Katakuri would be a difficult opponent on his own.


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## DoctorLaw (Nov 12, 2017)

The admiral underestimation is ridiculous lol. I remember before G4 Luffy appeared, admirals were wanked, a couple months after G4 now people think G4 Luffy’s speed is at or above Kizaru’s. Smh

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mr. Good vibes (Nov 12, 2017)

They might have a chance against a pre skip kizaru who is high as a kite, but a post rehab Kizaru give them a light show of a lifetime.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Milkydean (Nov 12, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> The admiral underestimation is ridiculous lol. I remember before G4 Luffy appeared, admirals were wanked, a couple months after G4 now people think G4 Luffy’s speed is at or above Kizaru’s. Smh


Give me one reason why it isn't?


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## DoctorLaw (Nov 12, 2017)

Milkydean said:


> Give me one reason why it isn't?



Gee, I dunno, maybe because Kizaru can turn into light and move at light speed. Yes it takes him a moment to convert, as demonstrated by Rayleigh stopping him once, but once he goes, he moves at light speed. That is faster than any other character in the series can move period. 

I’ll let you guys have your G4 on par with an admiral fantasies all you want, but G4 Luffy matching or surpassing the speed of light? Just no.


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## Milkydean (Nov 13, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> Gee, I dunno, maybe because Kizaru can turn into light and move at light speed. Yes it takes him a moment to convert, as demonstrated by Rayleigh stopping him once, but once he goes, he moves at light speed. That is faster than any other character in the series can move period.
> 
> I’ll let you guys have your G4 on par with an admiral fantasies all you want, but G4 Luffy matching or surpassing the speed of light? Just no.


Kizaru is not light speed.Do you understand what would happen if he was at the speed of light?He is atmost the speed of whatever the best speed feat in OP is in OBDs.
And even if you consider Kizaru light speed,pre skip Luffy and Zoro fought enel who has the lightning powers,lightning is as fast as light.So they have it covered.The best feat of Kizaru is blitzing pre skip supernovas which the current Luffy can easily replicate in Gear 2.


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## DoctorLaw (Nov 13, 2017)

Milkydean said:


> Kizaru is not light speed.Do you understand what would happen if he was at the speed of light?He is atmost the speed of whatever the best speed feat in OP is in OBDs.
> And even if you consider Kizaru light speed,pre skip Luffy and Zoro fought enel who has the lightning powers,lightning is as fast as light.So they have it covered.*The best feat of Kizaru is blitzing pre skip supernovas which the current Luffy can easily replicate in Gear 2.*



I knew it was coming.
Let’s not get into all the science here of “if he were actually light speed” because then we would have to bring up the science of why Enel still should’ve been able to fry Luffy despite him being rubber, why the admirals shouldn’t be able to block an earthquake, why Akainu’s heat alone would melt anyone including WB if they got within his vicinity, etc;

This is a shounen manga, we use a certain amount of suspension of disbelief to read it.

He is the element of light, therefore he moves at light speed. We can’t just ignore the fact that Luffy’s element in the manga gave him absolute protection from any amount of lightning and then nerf Kizaru’s fruit.

Also, are we comparing G2 Luffy’s speed to Kizaru now???


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## Gohara (Nov 13, 2017)

While I agree that Kizaru's light skills at least suggest that he's one of the fastest characters in the series I respectfully disagree about them being light speed.  If Kizaru can literally move at the speed of light then he can easily defeat every character in One Piece before they even know what's going on, and I'm not even referring to fair one on one match ups, I'm saying that he could do that in one chapter.  Kizaru would be able to travel around Earth many times in one panel.  Compare that to Kizaru taking multiple panels to travel through several blocks to kick Apoo.  Not just that but Apoo's character even says a sentence between when Kizaru starts traveling and when he kicks Apoo, and obviously Apoo can't talk faster than the speed of light.

As you said Earth's science doesn't necessarily align with One Piece's science.  So just because it's the Light Devil Fruit doesn't necessarily mean that he literally moves at the speed of light, especially since we're not talking about our Earth.  That also doesn't necessarily mean that Oda can't apply any other Devil Fruit Abilities literally, some Oda does and some Oda doesn't.


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## Milkydean (Nov 13, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> I knew it was coming.
> Let’s not get into all the science here of “if he were actually light speed” because then we would have to bring up the science of why Enel still should’ve been able to fry Luffy despite him being rubber, why the admirals shouldn’t be able to block an earthquake, why Akainu’s heat alone would melt anyone including WB if they got within his vicinity, etc;
> 
> This is a shounen manga, we use a certain amount of suspension of disbelief to read it.
> ...


Way to dodge my point of Enel being light speed as well.Like I said,doesn't matter if Kizaru is light speed or not,if he is then so should Enel and his lightning attacks too.And if pre skip Luffy and Zoro can deal with Enel's light speed combat,Kizaru's light speed shouldn't be a problem either.

Yes current G2 can blitz the pre skip supernovas,it literally blitzed and one shot PX model which was giving hard time to multiple supernovas.And yes it could be compared to Kizaru as well.


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 13, 2017)

Lightning is not light speed


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## DoctorLaw (Nov 13, 2017)

Milkydean said:


> Way to dodge my point of Enel being light speed as well.Like I said,doesn't matter if Kizaru is light speed or not,if he is then so should Enel and his lightning attacks too.And if pre skip Luffy and Zoro can deal with Enel's light speed combat,Kizaru's light speed shouldn't be a problem either.
> 
> Yes current G2 can blitz the pre skip supernovas,it literally blitzed and one shot PX model which was giving hard time to multiple supernovas.And yes it could be compared to Kizaru as well.



How did I dodge the point? He can move at the literal speed of light when he whips out the mirror. I don’t know how fast he is exactly without it but he definitely can move at the speed of light when he converts to light. Oda gave his mirror a charge time so people could stop him. (Rayleigh and WB for example)

Enel was the epitome of what Pekoms described when he said some logia users think they are unstoppable. He was careless, and an idiot, and he lacked any kind of ability to fight Luffy in a brawl, which he insisted on doing. Kizaru held his own against Rayleigh in an up front sword fight, and fought plenty of haki users. He knows how to fight.

That’s not how comparisons work in this context. Akainu can one shot a pacifista just like Luffy can. Doesn’t mean Luffy and Akainu’s offense are comparable.


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## B Rabbit (Nov 13, 2017)

Katakuri and Cracker lose high difficulty.


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## IllmaticKingC (Nov 17, 2017)

Kizaru mid - high


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 18, 2017)

theres no way Kizaru loses here, but it would be a high-diff win, maybe even extreme-diff


admirals (at least the C3) are enough of an above any yonkou commander level for Kizaru to be able to beat ~1.5 Katakuris


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## Mylesime (Nov 18, 2017)

* The commanders win, high to extreme diff. They must win most of the time.*

  I can't believe the general consensus here, with these visions the story doesn't make any sense. If an admiral can deal with two commanders, *one of them being a first mate*, an events like marineford is just a joke and not this big climax that led to a new era like it was suposed to be. The so called "power levels" are just a mean to sum up, to describe these universes balances of power incarnated by a selected few characters.
  The way i think about it, it is similar to the real world balance of power, but way simplier , when talking about geopolitical issues, The US are the most powerful country in the world, but they would have to think very carefully before fighting let's say China, Russia, or the  EU........ which explains events such as the cold war, or the fact that whatever tensions exist between these countries "Nothing" never happens, no one wanting you know to end the world..... So russia mess with elections ' process in the west, china supports north corea, the US support the ukranian governments before russia takes crimea , but no one fucks with the others directly, because again no one wants to end the world.
  In short what i'm trying to say, is that Big Mom by herself doesn't prevent the marine to come kick her ass.
An high ranked commander is almost always weaker than a certified top tier but *he has to be able to stall him for an extended period of time* , that was shown during the war, maybe badly executed but that's what oda intended to show, vista restrained mihawk who while stronger couldn't deal with him quickly. Those guys are at least high tiers or straight top tiers ( again i'm using those terms to describe a  fictional reality).
Nami can make an impact during a fight between two charcaters of that level (doflamingo, cracker, katakuri can all beat luffy currently in some situations, they can be compared to him). No one wants to take a direct "honey pretzel" without any defense.

Someone may beat katakuri and one of his strongest brother (if not the strongest) but it should be a miracle, a big upset. The favorites are clear here.
If not it would have been a long time that the marines would have wrecked the pirates, there is a reason they're  relying on some of them (the schichibukai)  who keep betraying them, and let them fight amongst themselves.....

  Katakuri and craker are two top tiers or extremely close to it (cracker is currently at least at luffy's and doflamingo's level high tier/low top tier). Luffy is not a small fry anymore, he's running away from katakuri who is clearly stronger than gear 4 , able to confront that mode head on. None of this makes sense, if we do not admit that these two brothers are fucking strong. Two of the current top 20 pirates , there isn't a lot of characters in the story able to beat them at the same time, and kizaru is certainly not one of them.

  I'm talking about the big picture here, the in-universe rule because i see it as a frame that oda has to respect if he doesn't want his manga to become trash, it has to be coherent, hence the rules that he created himself that he has to follow, otherwise it doesn't make any sense. It's more useful than strictly looking at a selected few panels and draw rushed conclusions sometimes.
Katakuri explained that his coo was affected by his anger, and his inability to stay calm, during the war at marineofrd joz and marco were able to connect with ao kiji while the admiral was distracted..... but it was minor injuries, garp connected with marco, again a minor injury.
Big mom was vulnerable every time the subject of mother caramel is brought on, so much that vito, gotti and capone of all people could have killed her, they were a threat when she was weakened, no more coa at that moment , hence the bleeding.
Seing their captain die before their eyes, their future captain die, and effectively loosing the war, it certainly had a huge impact on their state of mind and their willpower, hence their hakis, knowing that they're moreover weaker than the admirals, their quick defeat isn't only due to some huge difference in power, they were broken as soon as WB became a zombie.
  Fujitora isn't beating two sweet commanders by himself if katakur is one of them, almost nobody can do this. He would beat snack and cracker in my opinion, with difficulty but i would give him the edge, he's not beating katakuri and craker though most of the time, he would lose most of the time.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 18, 2017)

admirals (again, at least the C3) are closer to yonkou then to FMs


and the gap between a yonkou and the FM is quite substantial

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Nov 18, 2017)

I do agree with with the fact that admirals are closer to the yonkous than to their commanders, because without that the story doesn't make sense, but once again in my opinion the gap isn't as big as you think at least regarding the FM.
  Big mom would lose against all her commanders at the same time, luffy isn't beating jinbei , sanji and zoro at the end of the story at the same time.

  Craker isn't getting OS , he would eventually lose of course, he would not be able to injure kizaru, but with his ability to summon soldiers that he can fix at will as long as he has the endurance (which is at least half a day, and certainly more because not many opponents would eat the soldier and force him to create new substance ), it's going to take some time for the admiral to catch him. With katakuri ability to predict his opponent movements, the possibilities and openings are endless.
Kizaru could win, but he would lose most often than not. I think that everybody is being underestimated except the yonkous (some people really believe that big mom could solo all her kids).
They're too strong, giving katakuri the assist of someone as strong as doflamingo would change the outcome , the gap between kizaru and him isn't that big for me. 
If one admiral can take by himself two of the most powerful commanders of a yonkou including the most powerful of them, there is Nothing to explain marineford or the satut quo.
*At full strength (it wasn't the case for WB, with teach betrayal, ace absent, and the yonkou weakened). *The marine isn't leaving a clash with a yonkou without huge casulaties, if not Nothing can explain why they didn't eliminate all of them during let's say marco and BB war. You Attack big mom at that time, what is shanks going to do, he can't ignore kaido...
   The commanders have to (the strongest of them of course), at marineford when shanks showed up ao kiji , fujitora, garp, sengoku, even aka inu were all good to go (luffy has been fighting like crazy in WCI, the two admirals fought for weeks), if not for marco, vista, and shanks top fighters (the 3 or 4 strongest, like all the other pirates crew of the manga ) there is no way to explain the marine withdrawal. 
Anyway that's how i understood it.

  The marine has basically 4 yonkou (on this point i agree with you, admirals are close to yonkous), except that all of the marines top dogs aren't trying to kill each other....
The pirates are divided, the marine capitalize on that, they use some of them to keep the balance (jinbei, mihawk, etc). The yonkous would be done individually without their own underling monsters.
That's why the marine is so afraid when two of them met wb and shanks.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 18, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> Big mom would lose against all her commanders at the same tim


? but we know thats not true


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## Mylesime (Nov 18, 2017)

Weiss said:


> ? but we know thats not true



  They don't want to put holes in her body, they're trying to restrain her without hurting her which is near impossible, Killing or dwrowning a top tier ..... not so much. If her kid were the ones trying to assassinate her they obviously would succeed. Squardo was able to stab WB in the back (albeit weakened) , i mean come on. They could not poison her?
We see this kind of situation all the times in shonens, "th seven Deadly sins trying to stop meliodas", "jyraya trying to stop naruto in 4 tailed form.
Nobody is soloing a yonkou army by himself (which is basically the top commanders), that's one of the emperors' traits (the same way luffy is special because strong people gather around him, how many times were people surprised that zoro would work for someone?)
There is major underestimation in my opinion. Without dogtooth i would give the benefice of  the doubt to the admiral, but with a FM......it's an extreme diff fight at least, and the team is clearly favored.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Nov 18, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> *They don't want to put holes in her body*, they're trying to restrain her without hurting her which is near impossible, Killing or dwrowning a top tier ..... not so much. If her kid were the ones trying to assassinate her they obviously would succeed. Squardo was able to stab WB in the back (albeit weakened) , i mean come on. They could not poison her?
> We see this kind of situation all the times in shonens, "th seven Deadly sins trying to stop meliodas", "jyraya trying to stop naruto in 4 tailed form.
> Nobody is soloing a yonkou army by himself (which is basically the top commanders), that's one of the emperors' traits (the same way luffy is special because strong people gather around him, how many times were people surprised that zoro would work for someone?)
> There is major underestimation in my opinion. Without dogtooth i would give the benefice of  the doubt to the admiral, but with a FM......it's an extreme diff fight at least, and the team is clearly favored.


The crew that so far refers to her as some nigh invincible tank is gonna put holes in her body?

The only one who even comes close to being a threat to her is katakuri while the likes of Cracker is practically fodder to her and Smoothie is canonically useless(even taking her commander hype seriously she seems to be a cc fighter with hax and well she's completely outclassed by meme in terms of stats) leaving katakuri which it's questionable if he can even hurt her let alone do more than just superficial damage to her where has she can just outright eat the poor bastard whole. As for the rest they literally can't hurt her with most being hard pressed with dealing with her personal homies.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DoctorLaw (Nov 18, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> * The commanders win, high to extreme diff. They must win most of the time.*
> 
> I can't believe the general consensus here, with these visions the story doesn't make any sense. If an admiral can deal with two commanders, *one of them being a first mate*, an events like marineford is just a joke and not this big climax that led to a new era like it was suposed to be. The so called "power levels" are just a mean to sum up, to describe these universes balances of power incarnated by a selected few characters.
> The way i think about it, it is similar to the real world balance of power, but way simplier , when talking about geopolitical issues, The US are the most powerful country in the world, but they would have to think very carefully before fighting let's say China, Russia, or the  EU........ which explains events such as the cold war, or the fact that whatever tensions exist between these countries "Nothing" never happens, no one wanting you know to end the world..... So russia mess with elections ' process in the west, china supports north corea, the US support the ukranian governments before russia takes crimea , but no one fucks with the others directly, because again no one wants to end the world.
> ...



I approach hypothetical fights based on portrayal, overall power level, matchups, and feats. If I look solely at portrayal, I have to agree that a Yonkou's FM with help from another yonkou commander can push an admiral to a significant amount of difficulty, or even possibly beat them. When I factor in the other things, the story changes. Luffy struggled immensely against Cracker and Katakuri both, but most of the difficulty came from the matchup. Luffy is a brawler, able to beat something if he can hit it. Cracker had an army of very tough soldiers protecting him, so Luffy struggled trying to smash them all and get to Cracker. Katakuri's DF allowed him to basically mimic and cancel out Luffy's attacks, with the added benefit of his CoO allowing him to see what attacks Luffy was going to use. Against a brawler like Luffy, that has only fought one other person with this ability above average level, one who paled in comparison to Katakuri in brute strength, this is a terrible matchup.

Kizaru has advantages over these two brothers that Luffy doesn't. For one, he has ranged attacks, some capable of mass amounts of destruction (his kick at Sabaody, the light show he put on for Marco then and Law's sub). If you'll recall, Cracker didn't have too many options at range, and Katakuri, as a paramecia, not a logia, can only extend his limbs or use his awakening for longer ranged attacks. Kizaru, from a distance, only has to deal with their more limited options, and on top of that he has a ton of experience fighting close range, as demonstrated by his fight with Rayleigh, someone who should be around the level of Yonkou commanders (they stalled admirals, he did the same, he might be stronger). With his attacks, he can break Cracker's defenses, and the mirror allows him to weave his way in for an instantaneous attack on Cracker, who hates pain. One kick from Kizaru can probably put him down. Avoiding Cracker's attacks won't be a problem either. If G2/G3 Luffy is dodging it and eating people, Kizaru dodges in his sleep. Cracker can't tag Kizaru.

Katakuri is stronger sure, but he is a brawler, one that relies on his foresight to anticipate enemy attacks and act accordingly. Therefore, you need increased attack speed or a larger aoe to fight him. Attacking him so quickly that he can't react is definitely a job for someone like Kizaru, the lord of the blitz. Even if Katakuri is quick enough on dodging (he can't win from tanking), he can't dodge mass attacks from the sky, like the ones Kizaru tried to rain on Luffy and Law. They got away because they were hundreds of meter deep in the water, Kizaru couldn't see them, and a little bit of luck. If Akainu and Aokiji can change the climate of an island, Kizaru likely also has an insane amount of attacks that he can employ.

Kizaru simply has more options (stronger ones at that) than either Cracker or Katakuri, and he's fast enough to blitz either one at any given moment, especially if he gets enough of a distance to pull out the mirror (though I suppose telegraphing like that is him begging for Katakuri to ready something). If Kizaru starts off by one shotting Cracker (who again, hates pain) with the mirror zap and light sword, its 1v1 against Katakuri, which is not going above high difficulty, if that.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 18, 2017)

I still have old Rayleigh above Katakuri tbh

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (Nov 18, 2017)

@Onewhosbeenaround:
  I'm only stating facts here, i'm not even talking about power levels per say , every single time big mom has a tantrum it's the same story, they bring her the desired meal and avoid direct confrontation, they don't fight her. Capone thought of a plan that exploited big mom's secrets and weaknesses, are we really supposed to think that her children are powerless in front of her, she was walking on one of perospero devil fruit creatures in the middle of the sea.
If big mom falls, her empire falls, her children with her, when chopper couldn't control his monster form, the most difficult part was stopping him without too much damage......it's worse here, she is stronger than any of them.
What would happen if let's say katakuri, oven, daifuku, compote, katakuri, cracker and smoothie fought Big Mom head on?
How many casualties? What would their ennemies do during that time? She's their most important asset and the biggest threat to her own empire.
*They can't fight her, there is no point in fighting her, they need her.* But again, no one should be able to destroy a yonkou crew by himself, if not the op world doesn't make any sense.
*Those big dogs have to be somewhat close otherwise the statu quo doesn't make sense.....* Look at the big picture once again.


@Doctorlaw :
  You're basically using cracker's strength and style against him, no matter how he does it, the most important aspect is his level of performance. If luffy couldn't eat his way out of any situation he would have died both times......but the guy is a living rubber stomach, it is what it is.
A part from their physical stats (speed, reactivity, strength, endurance, durability which cracker clearly lacks....) these guys are beast in armement haki and/or observation haki, this allows them like with luffy to maximize otherwise ridiculous devil fruits. Mochi in itself is Nothing, with his coo and coa the guy came up with "peerless donuts" and his logia like evasive abilities, on a smaller scale craker biscuit used with everything else he has made him a pirate worth almost 900 millions bunties. *Long story short (lol) these guys exceeds the level of luffy in gear 4.....  They dealt with it.*
Kizaru is stronger than them , specially cracker, but there are amongst the rare characters who are not ridiculous in comparison, i highly doubt for example that kizaru's coo is better than katakuri's.......who can fuse with his mochi and move like a logia in his element (which allowed him to follow luffy's in gear 4).
That's the reason enel got his ass whooped, reactivity is more important than their "devil fruits speed", they have to think before acting and aim at their target.
Those guys matched gear 4, are we supposed to believe that luffy in gear 4 can not tickle top tiers. Those guys can produce this kind of output at will.....

  Last element, some of those guys are ceiling for the straw hats crew, the same way the admirals, yonkou and the pirate king are for luffy. They're benchmark.
They're some of the only characters worthy of the comparison with other yonkou's crew (beckman, marco, yassop, vista,etc,etc) and the former pirate king crew (Rayleigh, inuarashi, scooper,etc,etc).
If these guys can be dealt with "that easily", that basically means that luffy could fuck with his whole crew all by himself at the end of the story.
The only way that this universe can make any sense, is if *at least  kizaru *has to put his life on the line in order to win such a match, extreme diff is the bar minimum.


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## Arthur CM (Nov 21, 2017)

kizaru


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