# Senju Tsunade - Let's figure this out



## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 12, 2017)

*Senju Tsunade*
Overrated / Underrated​Senju Tsunade is perhaps one of the most underrated & overrated characters on the battledome - meaning there are folks who have her being taken out by P1 Hatake Kakashi with Low Difficulty & others that have her defeating Hoshigaki Kisame with minimal difficulty. So what're your thoughts on Ms. Senju? Is her arsenal too shitty to have her at high levels or does the potency of each tech make up for the lack of versatility? What are the limits to her regeneration? Does she live up to the Sannin name or Hokage name for that matter? will Katsuyu ever be defeated? Hash it out here -- also don't forget to vote in the poll.

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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2017)

She varies from rated fairly to being underrated in general with few people overrating her. From what I've seen most people that usually say Tsunade is overrated are people who are butt hurt over the Sannin in general along with Master fanboys as well as people in Tsunade vs Akatsuki members matches as they believe she loses.

-As I always say speed is overrated by people in the battledome so she tends to get underrated from the idiots that think she's "to slow" to hit people. Anyone who has actually read the manga can see that there is multiple times in which slower characters can keep up with and react to as well as hit people that are faster then them but somehow speed gotta be wanked and she's not likely to be hit said people. So with this being a case Tsunade doesn't stand a chance at beating characters because of their speed thus losing to people she can likely beat which a punch or two is all it's gonna take.

-Another reason why Tsunade is underrate is because of her lack of on panel fights in the manga. She's been in all of two actual fight. Think about that for a second. One against Kabuto and Orochi in part one where she was rusty and had her fear of blood and the second was against Madara and during her second fight she didn't bother dodging to many attacks due to Byakugo. Because of this people tend to forget she's a Taijutsu which is why she has a 5 in the stat as well as being good at evasion which she taught to Sakura(and we all know how Sakura is treated around here so people don't find that impressive which is sad). People see her barely dodge attacks so they assume she lacks the speed and what not to do it rather then it being a case that Tsunade was using her healing to her advantage just like when she caught Madara off guard the first time she did it. 

-People also forget she has chakra scalpels which means she can cut people and what not as well as having Ranshinsho. Tsunade can use 4 out of the five elements but people forget and some people are idiots with the mindset of "she hasn't shown it so she can't use them hurr durr" ignoring the fact that she's over 50 years old and has been in all of two fights which means she never got a caught to show off her entire arsenal(but that's another talk for a different day). 

-Another problem is that some people act like idiots and rank characters by 1V1 combat rather then overall abilities which is where Tsunade shines greatly. Being able to boost people's jutsu to huge lvls, being able to protect a village worth of people with Katsuyu, being able to heal on a massive scale, being able to create poisons which could have no smell or taste for example, being able to counter multiple poisons, etc. among other things thus people rank her low which is laughable. Like why should we ignore multiple of her abilities in overall situations. Like if people actually looked in the manga, there's almost as many(if not more) fights that are 1V2 or 4V2 or 6V1, etc. fights aka team battles or gang-up battles. Guess what theme was drilled into our heads a bunch? Teamwork. Hell last I check that was the main thing that allowed Naruto and Sasuke to beat Kaguya right? But nah lets forget that and focus on 1V1.

Speaking of which you got people underrating her due to being great at support. She was called the strongest Kunoichi and Jiraiya praised her battle abilities and medical ninjutsu. But because she's good at support people just assume that her fight skills come second which is laughable. Then there's Katsuyu which sadly quite a bit of people are stupid over her. Most of the time people(mainly me) be joking about her and yet those idiots take it as serious and let their butthurtness cloud their minds when Katsuyu is actually pretty great defensively and has some powerful acid if it can kill Orochi and with her ability to split and have her clones spit acid, Katsuyu is pretty dangerous. But hey she's mainly been summoned defensively so some people doubt Tsunade calling upon her despite the fact that Tsunade summoned Katsuyu first once she got over he blood fear meaning that in one of the two fights she's been in, she's summoned her but yeah.

I could go on but you get the point. There's not as many people that underrate her as before but there's just a small handful now that do, so overall I'd say she's rated fairly in general. Now I have a good idea in my mind who's gotta say she's overrated so Imma keep a counter just to see how many I get right and post it

Reactions: Like 13 | Agree 1


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## Idiopodivny (Apr 12, 2017)

Bonly said:


> She varies from rated fairly to being underrated in general with few people overrating her. From what I've seen most people that usually say Tsunade is overrated are people who are butt hurt over the Sannin in general along with Master fanboys as well as people in Tsunade vs Akatsuki members matches as they believe she loses.
> 
> -As I always say speed is overrated by people in the battledome so she tends to get underrated from the idiots that think she's "to slow" to hit people. Anyone who has actually read the manga can see that there is multiple times in which slower characters can keep up with and react to as well as hit people that are faster then them but somehow speed gotta be wanked and she's not likely to be hit said people. So with this being a case Tsunade doesn't stand a chance at beating characters because of their speed thus losing to people she can likely beat which a punch or two is all it's gonna take.
> 
> ...



Well said

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## Beyonce (Apr 12, 2017)

During my time in Battledome, Tsunade's always gotten the short end of the stick. At one point, I saw a person arguing that Part 1 Sasuke defeats her by "speed blitzing a chidori to her heart". So yes, Tsunade is extremely underrated.

It's absurd to believe that Tsunade loses to Part 1 Kakashi.

A ton of Tsunade's downplay comes from people assuming she's slow. That's where people get the "Raikiri to the heart gg" argument. The main reason why people think she's slow is because of her 3.5 in speed. Databook speeds don't do characters justice. Hidan has a 3.5 in speed yet look how well he performed against Kakashi in CQC? Tsunade sure as hell is performing better than Hidan, especially when it's right to assume she's had more experience in close-quarters combat than both Hidan and Kakashi. All Tsunade needs is one well-placed shot on Kakashi and it's over. His nervous system gets scrambled, and he gets pounded.

Some of my favorite Tsunade feats:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hearing Orochimaru's heart-rate from feets away 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Having a basketball sized hole in her abdomen and healing it in seconds. Right after taking a yasaka magatama to the face. 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Going through Mabui's teleportation Jutsu without having her flesh be torn to pieces. Only the third raikage was able to go through the technique, and he's the same person who ate Bijuu Bombs. 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Tsunade fighting with 2 swords stabbing through her spine. Her pain tolerance is insane. 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Tsunade lifting up Gamabunta's sword and jumping with it a good distance above the boss summons (Gamabunta is Kurama's size if I recall correctly) AND guiding it downwards with accuracy.

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## Ayala (Apr 12, 2017)

No one believes part 1 Kakashi beats Tsunade (low diff too), i have yet to see that. But he competes, and doesn't get ran over in a moment like Sannin's people believe (not when Itachi went through a MS tech Kakashi had no knowledge on to do that), expecially with support from 3 élite jonin and a jonin. 

Of course Sannin's people wouldn't understand how much they're overrating her when they claim she beats them al together in a moment.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 12, 2017)

Back in the day, people would have argued that Tsunade lost to, or would at least have been heavily pressured by Part II Shino and Part I Rock Lee.

Compared to back then, Tsunade is rated much more fairly. I do feel as though her evasion isn't considered as much as it could be, and perhaps people should be more open-minded about the extent to which her regeneration can fix wounds.

There are things which have and always will be overrated though, and they don't necessarily just pertain to Tsunade match ups. Speed for example. Characters don't always move at their top speeds, and there are plenty of instances where slower characters can still hit faster opponents as a result of certain circumstances.

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## Ishmael (Apr 12, 2017)

Outside of katsuyu against opponents with good ninjutsu and some unique ability they use. She loses. It isn't her that's overrated you should have had katsuyu as an option HON.

Not one tsunade thread I've been in that I opened it and posters were basically arguing katsuyu against her opponent.

This is why the summon gets restricted a lot. Other then that tsunade is rated fair I guess..... Depends on the poster honestly.

Some overrate her a lot underrate her, some are just in denial she loses some battles to be honest.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2017)

I guess you answered the thread.

Overrated by some, underrated by some. She suffers a lot of speculation, to be honest. This of surviving 5 Madara trying to put her in genjutsu off panel thing or speculating Yasaka Magatama's power in miniversion or her evasion skills superior to other shinobis (when in reality, other shinobis should be better at evasion than her because a fighter usually has to train evasion a lot, unlike the medics, they are not chilling in the back of an office healing people. They are putting their ass on the line. but she should have well evasion, though.) or summoning 10% Katsuyu on her own, but neglecting other assumptions like "Deidara's C4 was used in genjutsu, the technique then automatically fails to kill her".

Something i've also seen i disagree with is with things like: Hey, she made genin fodderuto lose balance with a finger. Good luck Kage level Kakashi with that, you're screwed kind of things.

It's like saying Kakashi is going to use a thousand years of pain on Itachi because he did it against genin Naruto.

Overall, the reason it gets so much debate is this. Debates get too technical. I always see it like:

_Tsunade walks out of her room with the sun being in X coordinate : -15865 and Y coordinate: -452158, she squashed an insect that had no time to move away, and by the time she went to the mid section of Konoha (Map inserted when she started moving), the coordinate of the sun didn't even moved. And the guy you see in the background didn't finish moving his arm to put his beer on the table._

_That means Tsunade is extremely fast because she did all that walking in such little time._

But this thread is going to bring flame. In fact, Bonly's post could be taken as flamebait (and double standard also ) by some.

I'd suggest only giving opinion and not calling out contrary opinion. That looks unprofessional and like i said, double morale.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Santoryu (Apr 12, 2017)

Beyonce said:


> A ton of Tsunade's downplay comes from people assuming she's slow. That's where people get the "Raikiri to the heart gg" argument. The main reason why people think she's slow is because of her 3.5 in speed. Databook speeds don't do characters justice. Hidan has a 3.5 in speed yet look how well he performed against Kakashi in CQC? Tsunade sure as hell is performing better than Hidan, especially when it's right to assume she's had more experience in close-quarters combat than both Hidan and Kakashi. All Tsunade needs is one well-placed shot on Kakashi and it's over.



Raikiri to the heart is not an underestimation of Tsunade's abilities when we see Kakashi is capable of landing a frontal assault on the following characters: Zabuza, Obito, and Version 2 Jinjuriki, 2 of which were dojutsu enhanced.

Kakashi, with an injured hand, and the disadvantage of being chakra drained held of Hidan's scythe with a mere kunai. Under those circumstances can Tsunade do better than Hidan did in a one panel clash? Sure.

She beats part 1 Kakashi with difficulty. She has zero chance against War Kakashi. The latter applies to any of the Sannin.

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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> or her evasion skills superior to other shinobis (when in reality, other shinobis should be better at evasion than her because a fighter usually has to train evasion a lot, unlike the medics, they are not chilling in the back of an office healing people.



I have to disagree here. Tsunade isn't a regular medic, so much so that Jiraiya acknowledges her battle ability to be among the best there is (and that was before she ever got Byakugou), and Shikaku Nara hails her as the strongest kunoichi in the world. In smaller scale battles where her allies don't have their lives on the line, she's free to fight however she wants (ie. Tsunade vs Kabuto, Tsunade vs Naruto, Tsunade vs Orochimaru), and in those situations she isn't restricted to having to use Byakugou to engage opponents.

We need to bare in mind how much experience she has too: 40 D-rank missions, 236 C-rank missions, 467 B-rank missions, 418 A-rank missions and 95 S-rank ones. And then she participated in the Second Great War. It is extremely likely that she's had to fight by herself on many occasions, more so than most non-medic ninja sheerly because of the sheer volume of battles she's been in. The databook even gives her a taijutsu score of 5, and then we have Sakura's taijutsu score increasing steadily under her tutelage. Its no coincidence that Tsunade has all this experience, taijutsu skill and high evasive ability.

Her evasion is superior to many shinobi who fight on the front-lines in team battles more regularly than her, sheerly because of her wealth of experience and taijutsu prowess.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 12, 2017)

She is at the top of my the most underrated naruto chars list.

She is underrated and ım not just talked about nbd... This is a general mistake..

First of all with or w/o consciously most of us raised in sexist and patriarchy base societies.. First thing about Tsunade is she is a woman with a strong will..

So for most of the members this was her 1st absence.

And besides that..

Her rusty tsunade feats from part 1 is exeggerating in a bad way.

Hanzo is a shinobi who is called as "best at his time" with Hiruzen.. And Prime Hiruzen one of the most strongest normal shinobi out there.. Yet Rusty Hanzo defeated by a mere Samurai. Who is a low-mid jonin level at most.

So thats what means rusty due the point of view of Kishimoto !.  And you add alcoholism, grief and hemaphobia.. in that resume ?! Now you have ninja who is even more fucked up than Hanzo.

But still that ninja took multiple kusanagi slashes, still able to breath with demolished lungs, still able to carry 100+ ton objects. Still her kicks able to crack big craters on the bedrock..

And same orochimaru who is took hits from Kn4 Naruto with ease.. oneshotted by that rusty ninja ..

So there is nothing to shame for Tsunade.. even in that condition still did show far better performance than Rusty Hanzo.

And we're all know what happed after Tsunade catch her physicall standarts. Her each byakugo punch and kick nearly powerfull as hirudora and even more powerfull than COR. And her medical abilities is 20 time better than Kyuubi Cloak boosted War-Arc Sakura due to feats..

nearly equal to Jiriaya and Orochimaru, respected Hokage.. Strongest of her era with Ônoki (imo). And she is intimadating enough to forced Madara's ammunition a bit even more .

She is a mid-mid (at least) and high-mid (overall) kage imo. And she has one of the best summons out there.

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## Android (Apr 12, 2017)

Rated fairly , but can be underrated sometimes.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I have to disagree here. Tsunade isn't a regular medic, so much so that Jiraiya acknowledges her battle ability to be among the best there is (and that was before she ever got Byakugou), and Shikaku Nara hails her as the strongest kunoichi in the world. In smaller scale battles where her allies don't have their lives on the line, she's free to fight however she wants (ie. Tsunade vs Kabuto, Tsunade vs Naruto, Tsunade vs Orochimaru), and in those situations she isn't restricted to having to use Byakugou to engage opponents.
> 
> We need to bare in mind how much experience she has too: 40 D-rank missions, 236 C-rank missions, 467 B-rank missions, 418 A-rank missions and 95 S-rank ones. And then she participated in the Second Great War. It is extremely likely that she's had to fight by herself on many occasions, more so than most non-medic ninja sheerly because of the sheer volume of battles she's been in. The databook even gives her a taijutsu score of 5, and then we have Sakura's taijutsu score increasing steadily under her tutelage. Its no coincidence that Tsunade has all this experience, taijutsu skill and high evasive ability.
> 
> Her evasion is superior to many shinobi who fight on the front-lines in team battles more regularly than her, sheerly because of her wealth of experience and taijutsu prowess.



Yeah, i forgot to add that, because she was a fighter before being a medic.

I tried to say (poorly of my part, because i didn't finish it) that she's not better than much because she's a medic. Or average medic being better than average shinobis at evasion only because they need to train evasion when both does, but the other shinobi gets more experience on top of that.

And refering to her (in the quote), i didn't mean any Shinobi, though. I wouldn't put Gaara above her in evasion, for example. I was speaking through a general sense of Kages in her level. Like Kakashi, Gai, Ei. Not sure if Mei, nah, don't think Mei. Neither Onoki.

Sandaime Raikage, possibly Hiruzen if you count his 5 in Taijutsu and huge experience,  Tobirama, etc. That widens up if we add how she's prone to take hits because she's resilient and can lead to openings and hasn't dodged much when she became active and Hokage. That should lower her evasive abilities.

But throwing kage level out of my mind, some have better evasive skills by feats even. (Deidara, for example. Even if on top of a bird), Hidan even showcased pretty nice evasion that at least featwise looked greater than hers, even though i wouldn't put him on her general level.

I would have to think more, though. Just giving an random opinion with what comes out of my mind right now.

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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 12, 2017)

My only question...

Why is Tsunade is Overrated in the poll twice...




*Spoiler*: __ 



No look again




See it yet?



OT

Tsunade is a Mid Kage level shinobi for me

In the same tier as Kisame, Gaara, SM Jman, Danzo, War Arc Kakashi and the Raikages and stands a good chance at taking any of em down

And she is a tier below High Kages like

Minato, Tobirama, MS Sasuke, SM Naruto, Itachi, or Ohnoki and loses a vast majority against all of them imo

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Jad (Apr 12, 2017)

Not trying to cause offence, but a lot of the times it's the posters that vouch for Tsunade who severly handicap and underrate her opponents skills. You don't know how many times I've seen people say she is as fast and skilled as Gai. It's like they bring him down to her level.

And a lot of the time opponents are too dumb to try and attack Tsunade in a smart way. Like people not aiming for her head because it's 'never happened' in Naruto. Or somehow re trying the same technique over and over again without trying another tactic because their IQ is 10 when up against Tsunade.

And then you have Tsunade's toughness (durability) turned up to 100x. All of a sudden she is the Hulk capable of juggernauting through all attacks even though she's been injured by everything that's hit her.  Could go on. But this is going to bait so much.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Ishmael (Apr 12, 2017)

Jad said:


> Not trying to cause offence, but a lot of the times it's the posters that vouch for Tsunade who severly handicap and underrate her opponents skills. You don't know how many times I've seen people say she is as fast and skilled as Gai. It's like they bring him down to her level.
> 
> And a lot of the time opponents are too dumb to try and attack Tsunade in a smart way. Like people not aiming for her head because it's 'never happened' in Naruto. Or somehow re trying the same technique over and over again without trying another tactic because their IQ is 10 when up against Tsunade.
> 
> And then you have Tsunade's toughness (durability) turned up to 100x. All of a sudden she is the Hulk capable of juggernauting through all attacks even though she's been injured by everything that's hit her.  Could go on. But this is going to bait so much.



Keep going bro don't stop speaking those facts


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## FlamingRain (Apr 12, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Speaking of which you got people underrating her due to being great at support. She was called [LINKHL]145657[/LINKHL] and [LINKHL]145658[/LINKHL]. But because she's good at support people just assume that her fight skills come second which is laughable. Then there's Katsuyu which sadly quite a bit of people are stupid over her. Most of the time people(mainly me) be joking about her and yet those idiots take it as serious and let their butthurtness cloud their minds when Katsuyu is actually pretty great defensively and has some powerful acid if it can kill Orochi and with her ability to split and have her clones spit acid, Katsuyu is pretty dangerous. But hey she's mainly been summoned defensively so some people doubt Tsunade calling upon her despite the fact that Tsunade summoned Katsuyu first once she got over he blood fear meaning that in one of the two fights she's been in, she's summoned her but yeah.



This!

Tsunade can also have Katsuyu

spray acid amplified by Tsunade's Byakugo no Jutsu
act as a medium to use Shosen like she planned to in order to knockout/kill Oro
restrict enemy movement by splitting/melting around the field
meld around enemies that touch her
act as an amazing meat-shield with her melding ability
or all of them at once.

Various sized Katsuyu are to Tsunade what various sized toads and snakes are to Jiraiya and Orochimaru- she's made a name for herself with them, which wouldn't happen if she didn't use them prolifically. It probably wouldn't have sparked the reaction it did from Oro if Tsunade didn't often use her as a combat summon either; Katsuyu's databook entry _does_ place her at the same level as Gamabunta and Manda.

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## Ryuzaki (Apr 12, 2017)

Tsunade is overrated by some and underrated by some.

Her best attribute is that she is a healer and support shinobi, she's legitimately not cut out for 1 vs. 1 battles we have here in the battledome due to her character be one-dimensional. Against other higher tier characters, she's outclassed in offense, defense and usually as the case is speed. Her saving grace is that she can survive most wounds, so it's difficult to actually put her down and likely she'll use this to her advantage and blindside her opponents. Her fight against Madara really showed me that she's nothing more than just a brawler (CQC, taijutsu fighter) and that's the extent of her offense.

Now where I see most fans overrating her is when they start using Katsuyu as some imaginary offensive force, which she clearly isn't regardless of her resilience especially since she was never used outside of healing throughout all of Part 2. This is completely unorthodox and ridiculously high improbability given that she was up against the strongest villain in the manga and decided not use her til she was split in half. This is worse than Kakashi starting every battle with a gedo-sized Kamui or Itachi starting the match with Totsuka sword, because those are legitimate possibilities.

But lets be serious, she's not going to use Katsuyu in a 1 vs 1 match up, especially if her opponent doesn't have a summon on the field.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2017)

Oh yeah, this:

Orochimaru: Ok, KAtsuyu. If i do something tricky, you can kill me with your acid.

Man, Katsuyu's acid can kill Orochimaru! It's deadly.

Kisame: Oh look! Asa Kujaku, that attack that destroys the target!

Man, Asa Kujaku has no feats of destroying the target! .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 12, 2017)

Overrated, just like all of the Sannin.

Gets annoying seeing "she turns X into red mist hurrdurr" despite no feats of doing such a thing.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 12, 2017)

She wiped half of Madara out of existence, bro. Same Madara that took a punch from Ay without injury. What do you mean no feats of such a thing?

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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Overrated, just like all of the Sannin.
> 
> Gets annoying seeing "she turns X into red mist hurrdurr" despite no feats of doing such a thing.



I think this is not being literal. It's just saying she'd blow of anyone she punches. Wich is fairly accurate most of the time.


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## GoldGournetChef (Apr 12, 2017)

Underrated most of the times while fairly rated least of the times
For instance in her byakugo form her enhance strength is clearly in the city range not for getting the chakra scalpel that bypasses dura or her casually healing jutsu that raped sakura's own while said person was on steriods


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2017)

She's honestly on the path to being fairly rated, which is impressive considering how underrated she was in the past. The Tsuande fan base has had to beat the opponent into submission over the past few years and it's starting to work. Common misconceptions of Tsuande have dimished over the months like:
• Tsuande being slow
• Tsuande not having evasive skill
• Tsuande not being skilled in taijustu
• Tsuande not being able to one shot anyone under Madara's RC durability in one shot.

I'm still honestly working on dismantling some of the misconceptions that still exist like:
• Tsuande not being durable
• Katsuyu not making an appearance 
• PD, chakra scalpel and reverse shosen not being used
• Katsuyu Retcon
• the inclusion of Byakago boosting.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Android (Apr 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Gets annoying seeing "she turns X into red mist hurrdurr" despite no feats of doing such a thing.


And you give Kisame gets her strength feats and SM Naruto's strength feats , when he himself doesn't even have any important strength feats

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> She has zero chance against War Kakashi. The latter applies to any of the Sannin.


You really think the Sannin have *ZERO CHANCE* against Kakashi? Like really? Just think about that for a second. You didn't say Kakashi wins more times than not or that Kakashi is simply superior; rather that there is no chance that a Sannin member can beat Kakashi. Lol

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 12, 2017)

Veracity said:


> She's honestly on the path to being fairly rated, which is impressive considering how underrated she was in the past. The Tsuande fan base has had to beat the opponent into submission over the past few years and it's starting to work. Common misconceptions of Tsuande have dimished over the months like:


Since this is more or less a shot at me, I'll go ahead and bite.


Veracity said:


> • Tsuande being slow


This isn't a misconception, she is not a speedster or anyone worth considering in 'above average' speed. She's average which is how her character was built and that's fine. Her actual combat strategy is predicated on being slower than her opponents, which is how she got the drop on Madara. There's nothing wrong with this, Tsuande knows she's not the fastest tool in the shed but then again she doesn't need to be.


Veracity said:


> • Tsuande not having evasive skill


Don't know where this comes from but she has the best evasive skills in the manga, just not speed. I've never knocked her for this.


Veracity said:


> • Tsuande not being skilled in taijustu


This is probably due to the characters she is facing—such as Gai, against whom she'll lose in taijutsu all day, everyday. Outside of that, I've never seen anyone underrate her in terms of taijutsu.


Veracity said:


> • Tsuande not being able to one shot anyone under Madara's RC durability in one shot.


She can't one-shot anyone faster than her or more reflexive than her (e.g. precog/senjutsu), but if she hits people they are good as dead.


Veracity said:


> • Tsuande not being durable


She isn't durable, she's just a better healer.


Veracity said:


> • Katsuyu not making an appearance


Never has Katsuyu been used for 'offensive' purposes, if you say she'll summon Katsuyu to heal herself, then sure. But in the schematic we have set up here in the NBD doesn't really suit her. She isn't a great 1 vs 1 fighter. Her best option is to get hit and then blindside her opponent, if that fails, she has no ranged jutsu, no ninjutsu to assist her.

And this leads me to my main point, for Tsunade, fighting is a *secondary role* that's how it was for her on the Sannin, how it has been for her in Konoha and even when she fought along with the Gokage. That's not to say she can't hold her own, she can but she would fall short of closing the deal against most of the Akatsuki, her Gokage peers and other higher tier shinobi. Against Madara, she never engaged in a full on fight from the start, she was supporting from the sidelines. In team scenarios, she's the best teammate to have but in 1 vs 1, she is easily exploited by faster (e.g. Jiraiya, Kakashi, Itachi, Gai and etc.), unorthodox (e.g. Gengetsu, Danzo, Oonoki/Muu) or ranged opponents (e.g. Deidara, Gaara, Mei and etc.)


Veracity said:


> • the inclusion of Byakago boosting.


There is no 'boosting' because both the databook and manga explained that it allows her to heal while she is fighting.

This is just made up fan-fiction like an indestructible mini-katsuyu army fighting her battles for her.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Zexion~ (Apr 12, 2017)

She's merely a struggle to take down, her CES is overrated as its never been shown to deal fatal damage to anyone and her feats in CQC are sub-par as well as speed. Only feats she has in the manga she relied on her surprising regen ability for. 

She's taken out by anyone with good enough speed, and reflexes to avoid her bulky blows, and anyone with good ranged damage.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 12, 2017)

Tsunade is definitely below agility based Taijutsu users. Her attacks are straight forward, slow and easy to dodge, even P1 Kabuto was clowning her. Her strength is irrelevant since she can't hit anyone who can dodge her.

Gai, War Lee and Naruto are 3 people off the top of my head who can stomp her in a Taijutsu only battle. They're incredibly fast, moderately strong and exceptionally agile. In Taijutsu, speed and skill beats strength.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> This is just made up fan-fiction like an indestructible mini-katsuyu army fighting her battles for her.


Katsuyu is just missing panel-time. While Tsunade was cut in half with no chakra healing four other shinobi Katsuyu was still able to spit acid .. which means when summoned on a full tank:
​

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Since this is more or less a shot at me, I'll go ahead and bite.
> 
> This isn't a misconception, she is not a speedster or anyone worth considering in 'above average' speed. She's average which is how her character was built and that's fine. Her actual combat strategy is predicated on being slower than her opponents, which is how she got the drop on Madara. There's nothing wrong with this, Tsuande knows she's not the fastest tool in the shed but then again she doesn't need to be.
> 
> ...



This actually isn't a shot at you at all. It's a shot at everything I've seen against Tsuande on the forums which isn't just from you at all.

1) How is that relevant? Tsuande had been called slow quite frequently. She isn't and that's all I was getting at. Pacing with Onoki's flight speed puts her speed comfortably above what is actually slow.

2) you not knocking her for this, again, is irrelevant. The whole post isn't directed towards you.

3) Tsuande, Gai, Lee, Hiashi, Kimmi and Hiruzen are the only characters with a maxed out taijustu stat. I've seen homies in other threads claim Chiyo is better than Tsuande at taijustu.

4) which isn't the point was it? The point is people claiming Raikage or Kisame survive after the first shot.

Funny cause the 4 points above are ones that have _diminished_ in the battledome, which is what I stated.

5) No she is durable. Taking Yasaka with no damage to the skin, surviving Mabui's transportation techinque and staying intact from Kusangi makes her durable.

6) Katsuyu has an offensive techinque lol? It was used against Manda and was going to be used to kill Oro the second time around. Those are offensive instances are they not? Furthermore Kishi made Katsuyu able to resists all forms of blunt force damage and cutting ability with high amounts of durability in general. Place that in conjunction with its ability to split and spit acid and... it's a offense *and* defense to be reckoned with. You can't deny it's feats can you?

Your main problem lies in your refusal to consider Tsuande's lack of panel time as well as your inability to differentiate between a defensive and offensive situation. Just think about all the battles Tsuande has been in for a sec; vs Oro, Pain, Madara and JJ Obito. Tsuande only fought in two of those battles and she used offensive Katsuyu for one. So her rate is at 50% right? You can't include the Pain fight because Tsuande purposely used Katsuyu to shield the village from CST and was hoping Naruto could come back to help. It would have been dumb to Katsuyu to fight Pain while the whole village got wasted by CST lol. Offensive Katsuyu support against JJ Obito also would have been irrelevant and it was best to support the SA instead of watching them die trying to attack Juubito and not healing. The Madara example is the ONLY example you can bring to the table that supports your claim. And when you include this it lowers the odds of Katsuyu appearing to 50%. Even then, there are reasons to why she maybe wouldn't like lack of knowledge and having a Kage squadron.


Completely wrong. Tsuande developed Byakago so she *WOULD NOT* simply be a secondary fighter. This was implied and shown when she charged to fight Madara with her will of fire. You also had the audacity to say that Tsuande wouldn't fare as well in a battle like her Gokage members when( after using chakra to heal the other Kage) Tsuande was still alive and fine after fighting the clones while Mei was inches away from losing her life( saved By Gaara), Ay was inches away from being impaled by Sussano clones( saved by Onoki) and Gaara was tossed off his sand like a child? Tsunade was fairing just as well as the other Kage and she didn't have Katsuyu there to aid, and she was the most disadvanatged against the clones. Tsuande is even acknowledged as a fight by Jirayia and Oro. Her whole thing is not conforming to the regular standards of a medical ninja and actually being able to fight.

Can Tsuande boost justu through Byakago? Yes or No? Is Katsuyu's acid classified as a  ninjutsu yes or no?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2017)

Makishima said:


> She's merely a struggle to take down, *her CES is overrated as its never been shown to deal fatal damage to anyone* and her feats in CQC are sub-par as well as speed. Only feats she has in the manga she relied on her surprising regen ability for.
> 
> She's taken out by anyone with good enough speed, and reflexes to avoid her bulky blows, and anyone with good ranged damage.


the bold is literally just a lack of reading the manga. It can't be anything else.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zexion~ (Apr 12, 2017)

Veracity said:


> the bold is literally just a lack of reading the manga. It can't be anything else.


You're right I must have missed the point where she killed someone with her strength.

-Oro tanked it (without body regen)
-Kabuto survived a hit 

And she never hit anything else but a wood-clone again.

Don't quote me with your weak shit

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 12, 2017)

"Never been shown to deal fatal damage to anyone"


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2017)

Makishima said:


> You're right I must have missed the point where she killed someone with her strength.
> 
> -Oro tanked it (without body regen)
> -Kabuto survived a hit
> ...



She doesn't have to kill someone with the techinque for it to be fatal. You know that right? What has Amaterasu killed? What has a Bjuiidama killed? That's a terrible argument.

Oro took a hit from PART 1 TSUANDE and was hit so hard that he decided to give up his whole plan. The same Oro who takes hits from 3k Naruto and laughs.


Kabuto outright stated that he took away Tsuande's super strength lol. That was before he was hit.

How about we actually refer to Part 2 Tsuande like the OP is 

Wood clones have the same durability as the user so Tsunade literally would have turned Madara into confetti. That also doesn't mean we should ignore the fact that she busted Madara's Sussano open like a pack of skittles and sent homie into a massive crater. Let's also not forgot that Tsuande punches *much* harder than Raikage, and his hits are clearly fatal.

Don't play dumb just because you don't like the Sannin.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 12, 2017)

Makishima said:


> You're right I must have missed the point where she killed someone with her strength.


Chakra Enhanced Strength is stated to be fatal with a single blow. 





> Oro tanked it (without body regen)


A part of Orochimarus body modifications is that elasticity which allows him to tank attacks like this - & note that even with this advantage the force was enough to make him retreat. 





> Kabuto survived a hit.


Scan? Yakushi Kabuto went out of his way to cut her muscles so that her chakra Enhanced strength was no longer an option - though it didn't really stop her did it? 





> And she never hit anything else but a wood-clone again.


Wouldn't her ability to Mist a mokuton bunshin translate to misting an actual human? She shattered Uchiha Madaras Susanoo. She has completely shattered large blocks of steel. I don't know where you got this idea of Chakra Enhanced Strength (which is stated to be fatal with a single blow) being non-lethal.


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## Android (Apr 12, 2017)

So much cancer in this thread .
Prostate cancer that is .

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2017)

Tsuande isn't really all that underrated anymore. But the few that do underate her be saying the wildest shit I've ever seen lol

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mithos (Apr 12, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Tsuande isn't really all that underrated anymore. But the few that do underate her be saying the wildest shit I've ever seen lol



I mostly agree with this. I would say that the majority of posters rate her more or less fairly, but the ones who underestimate her do it so extremely it's mind-boggling.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 12, 2017)

Veracity said:


> 1) How is that relevant? Tsuande had been called slow quite frequently. She isn't and that's all I was getting at. Pacing with Onoki's flight speed puts her speed comfortably above what is actually slow.


No, it doesn't.



> 3) Tsuande, Gai, Lee, Hiashi, Kimmi and Hiruzen are the only characters with a maxed out taijustu stat. I've seen homies in other threads claim Chiyo is better than Tsuande at taijustu.


I have no problem rating Tsunade below Gai or Lee, the others are too slow to matter especially Hiruzen and Kimi's style would lead him to getting killed very quickly. 



> 4) which isn't the point was it? The point is people claiming Raikage or Kisame survive after the first shot.


Raikage does because he's a tank, Kisame I'm not so sure about. If she uses CES then he gets splattered, but if she just uses her normal strength, then probably but I don't know if he'd be in any condition to fight. Kisame is also not technically human, you have to remember other characters with Tier 5 (max) strength commented on how how he was insanely superhuman.



> 5) No she is durable. Taking Yasaka with no damage to the skin, surviving Mabui's transportation techinque and staying intact from Kusangi makes her durable.


Mabui's transportation technique she was cut up all around and just in the same breath you realize Raikage was completely unaffected right? Somehow you think he can't survive a punch from Tsunade?



> 6) Katsuyu has an offensive techinque lol? It was used against Manda and was going to be used to kill Oro the second time around. Those are offensive instances are they not? Furthermore Kishi made Katsuyu able to resists all forms of blunt force damage and cutting ability with high amounts of durability in general. Place that in conjunction with its ability to split and spit acid and... it's a offense *and* defense to be reckoned with. You can't deny it's feats can you?
> 
> Your main problem lies in your refusal to consider Tsuande's lack of panel time as well as your inability to differentiate between a defensive and offensive situation. Just think about all the battles Tsuande has been in for a sec; vs Oro, Pain, Madara and JJ Obito. Tsuande only fought in two of those battles and she used offensive Katsuyu for one. So her rate is at 50% right? You can't include the Pain fight because Tsuande purposely used Katsuyu to shield the village from CST and was hoping Naruto could come back to help. It would have been dumb to Katsuyu to fight Pain while the whole village got wasted by CST lol. Offensive Katsuyu support against JJ Obito also would have been irrelevant and it was best to support the SA instead of watching them die trying to attack Juubito and not healing. The Madara example is the ONLY example you can bring to the table that supports your claim. And when you include this it lowers the odds of Katsuyu appearing to 50%. Even then, there are reasons to why she maybe wouldn't like lack of knowledge and having a Kage squadron.


It's fan-fiction you guys made up, I've already proven Tsunade doesn't like to summon Katsuyu for offensive situations, as it was seen against Madara, Pain and in the War Arc. She was outnumber 25 to 5 and against boss-summon sized Susano'o who by your standards would have lost to Katsuyu. Yet, she thought it wasn't a great idea to summon her, I mean, that's not a good luck for her by any stretch of the imagination. 



> Completely wrong. Tsuande developed Byakago so she *WOULD NOT* simply be a secondary fighter. This was implied and shown when she charged to fight Madara with her will of fire. You also had the audacity to say that Tsuande wouldn't fare as well in a battle like her Gokage members when( after using chakra to heal the other Kage) Tsuande was still alive and fine after fighting the clones while Mei was inches away from losing her life( saved By Gaara), Ay was inches away from being impaled by Sussano clones( saved by Onoki) and Gaara was tossed off his sand like a child? Tsunade was fairing just as well as the other Kage and she didn't have Katsuyu there to aid, and she was the most disadvanatged against the clones. Tsuande is even acknowledged as a fight by Jirayia and Oro. Her whole thing is not conforming to the regular standards of a medical ninja and actually being able to fight.


You're missing the point, her role is not to be front-center fighter, she can step in and hold her own for a short time, but she's not a true fighter.

What was Tsunade doing in any flashback of the war we've seen? 
What did she opt to do when her village was being attacked? 
What was her primary role in the fight against Madara? 
*
Healer.*

She's a fighter second, but a healer first. There's a plethora of manga pages that proves this, even when she is regarded and known throughout the Narutoverse, it is for her healing ability not that she can punch a few people into the ground. You think people care that Michael Jordan played in the MLB for a season and a half or they care that he was a 6-time champion and GOAT? 

Jiraiya and Orochimaru acknowledge her medical ninjutsu expert and her monstrous strength, but that's about it. Her role on their team was never as a primary fighter. Byakugo allows her to fight, but lets not get it twisted and say that she's a fighter first. 



> Can Tsuande boost justu through Byakago? Yes or No? Is Katsuyu's acid classified as a  ninjutsu yes or no?


I thought you meant Tsunade's Byakugo's boosts her physical stats, not that she could amplify other people. I've already stated that she's the best teammate to have.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> Katsuyu is just missing panel-time. While Tsunade was cut in half with no chakra healing four other shinobi Katsuyu was still able to spit acid .. which means when summoned on a full tank:
> ​


What program did you use? I'm curious


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2017)

Makishima said:


> You're right I must have missed the point where she killed someone with her strength.
> 
> -Oro tanked it (without body regen)
> -Kabuto survived a hit



Tsunade hit Madara's Susano'o and cracked it better than Ei's lightened karate chop, that easily cut through his own durable body. Aside from that, her punch blew a hole in Madara's chest.

Not sure if the clones having less durability than the original is something, though. But cracking and busting Susano'o is going to kill anyone less durable than that.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> a general sense of Kages in her level. Like Kakashi, Gai, Ei. Not sure if Mei, nah, don't think Mei. Neither Onoki.




Gai is probably better better at it yeah. He's never shown any impressive evasion to my recollection, but he is incredibly well versed in different styles and he has about as much experience at using taijutsu as Tsunade has, if not more. Ei is better at evasion because he avoided an Amaterasu at point blank range, so that's a given. Kakashi is maybe about as good as Tsunade is, he isn't as good at taijutsu but he does have sharingan precognition to make up for it. 

In saying that, you've named Gai (the best taijutsu user in the series), Ei (one of the fastest characters in the series) and Kakashi (fast with a sharingan) as reasons as to why Tsunade, being a medic, isn't as skilled at them in evasion. In reality, Tsunade being a medic has nothing to do with why she's inferior at evasion to them, its because she's not as good at taijutsu or because she isn't as fast. 




> Sandaime Raikage, possibly Hiruzen if you count his 5 in Taijutsu and huge experience,  Tobirama, etc. That widens up if we add how she's prone to take hits because she's resilient and can lead to openings and hasn't dodged much when she became active and Hokage. That should lower her evasive abilities.



Sandaime Raikage, yes. Hiruzen was too frail and easily exhausted to be as evasive as Tsunade was, not to mention slower. Tobirama might be more evasive by extension of being able to teleport/flicker away from battle with Shunshin, but in a straight taijutsu fight I'd favour Tsunade's evasion over his. 



> But throwing kage level out of my mind, some have better evasive skills by feats even. (Deidara, for example. Even if on top of a bird), Hidan even showcased pretty nice evasion that at least featwise looked greater than hers, even though i wouldn't put him on her general level.



Hidan went up against Asuma and Shikamaru. Tsunade would've looked highly reflexive against them too, but instead she fought Madara Uchiha and Orochimaru and Kabuto (in bad shape). Deidara is more evasive in the air, but on the ground he isn't. 

In the end, apart from the top-tier speedsters and the very few characters who eclipse her in taijutsu prowess, Tsunade's evasion in CQC is among the best.


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## Zexion~ (Apr 12, 2017)

Veracity said:


> She doesn't have to kill someone with the techinque for it to be fatal. You know that right? What has Amaterasu killed? What has a Bjuiidama killed? That's a terrible argument.
> 
> Oro took a hit from PART 1 TSUANDE and was hit so hard that he decided to give up his whole plan. The same Oro who takes hits from 3k Naruto and laughs.
> 
> ...


lololol

No you fool, wood clones are wood, so they're easily broken through. They have MORE durability than a normal clone but this is because THEY ARE WOOD SO YOU CAN PUNCH THROUGH IT a normal human would have just been sent backwards by the punch.



Obviously I god-damn know she can deal some serious damage with her CES if Sakura can, but people who say "one hit and its over" are incredibly dull because unless she can go airborne and gather some serious momentum she's not killing shit in one hit.

Refer to part 2 what???? She did nothing in Part 2 but get backed up by 4 stronger Kage lol. She has no speed feats, no CQC feats all we have are her databook stats and what have you. She's LOW KAGE at best anyone who says otherwise is a wanker.


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## Zexion~ (Apr 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Tsunade hit Madara's Susano'o and cracked it better than Ei's lightened karate chop, that easily cut through his own durable body. Aside from that, her punch blew a hole in Madara's chest.
> 
> Not sure if the clones having less durability than the original is something, though. But cracking and busting Susano'o is going to kill anyone less durable than that.



Not true, its a physical construct of chakra. The human body is more absorbing than a solid ribcage (which is all she broke I believe).


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## Troyse22 (Apr 12, 2017)

Tsunade is only above the likes of Old Hiruzen only because of Katsuyu. Most Tsunade vs X threads devolve into Katsuyu vs X, that's how weak she is. Not even the most die hard Tsunade fans rely on Tsunade for their arguments, it's always falling back on Katsuyu.

Tsunade without Katsuyu carrying her is, at best, the bottom of low Kage, that's just fact. She hits hard, that's it. Strength is at best a gimmick if you lack the agility and skill to hit your target consistently.

You need to well balanced in a lot of things to be a decent Shinobi, Tsunade has almost nothing going for her besides Regen, Strength, Stamina and Chakra and a good Boss Summon, that's literally everything in terms of power in combat that she has.

Compare her to a fellow Taiutsu specialist, Might Gai.

His strength is weaker, but he's significantly more skilled than Tsunade, he has agility, speed, power, reflexes etc etc. He can land hits effectively, which not many will say Tsunade can.

Tsunade herself, alone is at best a low kage Shinobi, the very bottom of it, the only reason she's rated at the top of Low Kage or bottom of mid kage is simply due to Katsuyu and nothing more.


Tsunade is overrated, she's not anything impressive.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> What program did you use? I'm curious


lol believe it or not I created this on my iPhone - the "You Doodle" app. took me only a few minutes to create.


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## Beyonce (Apr 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> *Tsunade is only above the likes of Old Hiruzen only because of Katsuyu.* Most Tsunade vs X threads devolve into Katsuyu vs X, that's how weak she is. Not even the most die hard Tsunade fans rely on Tsunade for their arguments, it's always falling back on Katsuyu.



Just curious, but what does old Hiruzen have that can put down Tsunade?


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## Troyse22 (Apr 12, 2017)

Beyonce said:


> Just curious, but what does old Hiruzen have that can put down Tsunade?



RDS
If we give him his Edo feats he could kill her with 5 elements.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 12, 2017)

Overrated by a few of the super fans.

Overrated by those who think "Sannin level" is a thing, when Jiraiya is twice the shinobi she is in combat.

Underrated by those who think anyone with solid speed features and a kunai can ignore Byakugo by simply beheading her.

Underrated by those who were uneducated enough to be influenced by Kishimoto's implicit bias toward women - which showed in the manner in which he narrated the

lives (Sakura, Tsunade, Konan, Mei, Chiyo & Karin in constant distraught emotional basements unable to achieve true happiness during the entire era of the manga)
personalities (Sakura being a doormat for Sasuke, both her and Tsunade being overly aggressive and poorly tempered abusive teammates, Konan being horribly boring as an individual with nothing to provide other than depression, Mei being borderline psychopathic threatening her own underlings with murder and constantly distraught over failure to marry)
and accomplishments (nothing truly spectacular from a female shinobi ever- including but not limited to accomplishments in individual kage-level matchups where none of them have defeated a single kage level opponent) of them overall.
The final villain being a female who was too stupid to even utilize Byakugan properly and required the instruction of a blob of black shit attached to her arm who has less experience in combat than genin child soldiers

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Informative 2 | Disagree 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 12, 2017)

Overall I think Tsunade is ranked fairly, now of course there are always some posters that think shes overrated, but really thats with any character. Now as for her being underrated... not really I mean most people rank her mid-high Mid Kage lvl so I cant really imagine people ranking her high Kage along with Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama, Nagato, Obito, etc.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 12, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Konan being horribly boring as an individual with nothing to provide other than depression, Mei being borderline psychopathic threatening her own underlings with murder and constantly distraught over failure to marry)
> 
> and accomplishments (nothing truly spectacular from a female shinobi ever- including but not limited to accomplishments in individual kage-level matchups where none of them have defeated a single kage level opponent) of them overall.
> 
> The final villain being a female who was too stupid to even utilize Byakugan properly and required the instruction of a blob of black shit attached to her arm who has less experience in combat than genin child soldiers




This all made me lol, well done


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## Beyonce (Apr 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> RDS
> If we give him his Edo feats he could kill her with 5 elements.



Old Hiruzen barely had the strength to seal Part 1 Orochimaru's arms. Plus Tsunade isn't going to stand around idly as Hiruzen performs the jutsu. Lastly, it's a double KO, if that's how he has to defeat Tsunade, then it's no better than Tsunade having to use Katsuyu.

Tsunade can withstand the 5 elements while being constantly healed by Byakugo. Byakugo's regen abilities were able to patch a hole in her abdomen in a matter of a few seconds. Tsunade's incredible pain tolerance can easily juggernaut through whatever Hiruzen has to throw at her.


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> No, it doesn't.
> 
> 
> I have no problem rating Tsunade below Gai or Lee, the others are too slow to matter especially Hiruzen and Kimi's style would lead him to getting killed very quickly.
> ...


We've had endless discussions regarding Tsuande's speed and durability so I'm just gonna gloss right passed that. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. Simple as that.

But no Raikage does not survive a punch just because he's a tank. If he is inferior in durability to RC Sussano than he isn't surviving. And if he doesn't die then he is no condition to even move. He gets one shorted. Same with Kisame, I don't even have to dive into that at all. His extreme strength doesn't stop him from dying.

Except Tsuande's durability isn't in relation to her strength because she's using chakra. So Raikage surviving Mabui's techinque doesn't mean much in the face of CES.

I'm under the impression you didn't read anything I typed. You can rule the Pain and Juubito situation out from the start as using Katsuyu for offense would have gotten countless people killed. Good thing 1 v 1 battles are different scenarios where Tsuande isn't healing thousands of fodder. I discussed the Madara situation. So at worse there's a 50% chance she'll summon Katsuyu against an opponent.

Tsuande is definitely a true fighter. She's just a true fighter and a medical shinobi. That was obvious when she fared just as well as the other Kage despite not even having her summoning. If she wasn't a true fighter she would have been stomped by the clones.

•Tsuande didn't have Byakago or SS in past wars.
• Tsuande was definitely a fighter against Madara. I mean was that not clear with the introduction of Byakago?
• Fight Pain and lose + watch the village get nuked or defend the village and wait for Naruto? Which sounds smarter?

That's because a lot of Tsuande's hype comes from before she even had SS or Byakago which were her own prerequisites to fighting don't you remember? And current Tsuande is the greatest medical ninja to grace the land. Even if she was a mid-tier Kage in terms of fighting prowess( which she is) her accomplishments from the medical field would take precedence.

No Jirayia and Oro both acknowledge her ability in battle blatantly. And of course she wasn't necessarily the main fighter of the Sannin. But again, that's before the development of SS or Byakago, so that's null and void. 


Makishima said:


> lololol
> 
> No you fool, wood clones are wood, so they're easily broken through. They have MORE durability than a normal clone but this is because THEY ARE WOOD SO YOU CAN PUNCH THROUGH IT a normal human would have just been sent backwards by the punch.
> 
> ...


lol no. Just because it's Wood doesn't make it easier to break. All of Hashirama's techinques are wood are they easier to break? Poor logic.

That entry only tells us that Wood clones are durable. It doesn't say they aren't as durable as the user but feats and logic would indicate that they are. Hashirama was able to clone feint Madara with a Bunshin and nobody is able to distinguish the difference between the user and a wood Bunshin so clearly durability is a factor. That would also be the reason as to why Tsunade and the Kage both didn't even realize that Madara was a clone. Tsuande literally smashed the clone and thought it was Madara's body; a blatant indication that she can destroy his body regardless.

You're honestly like a *copy carbon* of those early posters that hop on with zero knowledge of Tsuande and bring forth walls of conjecture. You're gonna be dumbfounded when all your claims get dismantled. Make sure to quote me whenever you see something you disagree with about Tsuande, I'll set it straight.

Do you not know how durable Madara's ribcage is? It was able to withstand the force of Odama Resengan + Doton press with Minimal damage, as well as Yoton + Raiton chop with no damage at all. Ay's Raiton chop gives Ay the ability to cleave through Sasuke's Ribcage Sussano( is actually much stronger than liger bomb) and cut through his own body like butter. Tsuande is so much stronger than Ay( as per statements and feats) that she can bust open a Ribcage Sussano, with enough force to send Madara into a crater the size of liger bomb. Unless you are to believe that Madara's own body is more durable than RC( lol cause a Raiton chop would cut though Madara like butter) than you can concede right now. If Tsuande can bust RC, she can kill anybody below it's durability with a single shot.

Part 1 Tsuande is Rusty while Part 2 is in shape. Clearly she's going to hit harder when one also considers the boost from her Yin Seal. The rest is just conjecture, I'm not going to bother.


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## Tri (Apr 12, 2017)

Once you enter salt and vinegar lane there's no going back


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## FlamingRain (Apr 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Her attacks are straight forward, slow and easy to dodge



That is a board myth.

Tsunade knocked out Shizune in an instant. _(1)_ She got up off of her knees and went behind Kabuto to strike in the time it took Kabuto to adjust his glasses. _(2)_ When Orochimaru was staring at her intently enough to notice her trembling stop, she got up off the floor and kicked Oro in the face before he did a thing about it (despite Orochimaru being able to react to the surprise factor of Enma leaping out of staff form). _(3)_ When Orochimaru tried to use Lick on Tsunade she jerked him up to the top of Gamabunta's tanto and punched him in the face faster than he could do anything about it. _(4)_ When she suddenly appeared directly in front of a Madara already moving in her direction she was still able to throw a kick in time to strike instead of simply bumping into him (even Kabuto/Mu did not react in time to their sudden appearance to do anything). _(5)_

Her attacks clearly aren't slow, and they're not _especially_ straightforward compared to any other ninja's. If they were easy to dodge Kabuto wouldn't have run away from Tsunade until her breath was coming fast and then ingested ninja steroids even though he thought he only needed to score so much as a brief tap to either counter her monster strength or stop her in her tracks (Kabuto thought if he targeted her intercostal muscles), he would have just engaged her at the start without spending all that time. If they were easy to dodge Madara would have simply schooled Tsunade the moment she put herself at a distance from the other Kage instead of being forced to resort to a doppelganger rescue.

Kinda suggests they aren't that easy to dodge either. Without, y'know, simply staying away from Tsunade altogether that is.



> even P1 Kabuto was clowning her.



No.

I don't know if people are remembering something that happened in the anime or what, but people overestimate how well Kabuto did in that fight. Kabuto had to run away until Tsunade, who was out of shape (slower), started breathing heavily (slower), while Kabuto himself ingested ninja steroids (faster). All this in spite of the fact that Kabuto thought he only needed a brief tap in order to stop Tsunade in her tracks or stop her from using her monster strength, which heavily implies that if not for that Tsunade would have made surprisingly quick work of Kabuto. As does the fact that Kabuto _still_ got hit the moment he hit her.

That's the out-of-shape and out-of-practice Tsunade of part 1. _Part 2_ Tsunade sizably improved physically. The evidence? Notice that Orochimaru wasn't even tired by the chase during part 1 like Kabuto and Tsunade were, and then notice that Tsunade outranked Orochimaru in stamina by part 2.

Part 2 Tsunade > part 1 Tsunade >>> Kabuto

Reactions: Like 3


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 12, 2017)

Kabuto did outclass her in that fight.

He avoided multiple strikes, tagged her multiple times, and only lost because of his arrogance and presumption that she was not only defeated by his chakra scalpel (unable to move after the chest shot), but a powerless female (cut muscles/tendons in her body) with no chance in harming him further even if she did happen to somehow recover her movement physically.

Which resulted in him being touched by a technique that had nothing to do with torn muscle tissue, and then put in a position where she healed the damage from the scalpel while his movement was now at 80% - forcing him to use the blood fear against her once she charged him.

She actually rushed him when he had his eyes closed gloating. Prior to that she couldn't hit him and  herself in the attempt. When PT.1 Kabuto, who implies even with the pill that he's unskilled in taijutsu, can avoid your taijutsu attacks indefinitely - I have to agree that you're not really adept- which means your attacks indeed fall into the bucket of straight forward and/or predictable.

Kabuto implies he wasn't fighting entirely serious either, which makes sense considering he'd of cut her three times with ninja weapons instead of the inferior chakra scalpel. However, most words that come out of Kabuto's mouth are trash anyway, as the manga's least accurate and most absurd commentator, so who knows about that one.

Whether Kabuto's assertion is believable or not doesn't matter, his intention was to capture her in order to heal Orochimaru's arms, not kill her, so we know for a fact he was holding back and still dominated her.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Troyse22 (Apr 12, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kabuto did outclass her in that fight.
> 
> He avoided multiple strikes, tagged her multiple times, and only lost because of his arrogance and presumption that she was not only defeated by his chakra scalpel (unable to move after the chest shot), but a powerless female (cut muscles/tendons in her body) with no chance in harming him further even if she did happen to somehow recover her movement physically.
> 
> ...



What have you done....

You just destroyed the shit-hive, i'm getting out of here before I get stung by shit-bees


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2017)

lol chakra scalpels inferior to Kunai. Lmao


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2017)

I'm still baffled by Katsuyu's Byakugan style chakra scalpel.

Like, hey, i cut your muscles. You won't be able to use your super strength anymore.

Like, the hell? He prevented her from using CES on him with that. Like, ok cutting her muscles and not using her muscular strength. But how does that affect the chakra she could pour into her?

On top of that, i agree with Daviz. Tsunade hit Kabuto there because he had his eyes closed and being Sannin level overconfident. Or at least, Jiraiya level.

@Godaime Tsunade  these are just a few i picked on top of my mind. There's still Sasuke, Killer Bee, Rock Lee can get a pass, Sage Naruto... I don't remember right now the entire Kage spectrum. But i do think the majority that focuses on close combat have close to her evasion or even better. With the speedesters being the best. 

And i didn't say she has no evasion because she's a medic. I said a Medic is not more evasive than your average shinobi just because they are medic. Considering shinobis on the front lines needs to evade a lot more and they need to protect the medics as well. They are not punching bags. And due to that, they get more experience dodging due to wars than medics who are mostly only healing back in bases.

A lot of times i've seen "Tsunade is the best medic, she is excellent at evasion" and i just disagree with that. She's good at evasion because she's skilled. Not because she's a medic. Medics are, imo and logically, less evasive than fighters.

As long as we're talking about a close general level.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2017)

CES wasn't exactly a thing in Part 1. That's probably why unless I'm wrong


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## FlamingRain (Apr 13, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kabuto did outclass her in that fight.



Resorting to the phobia suggests otherwise.



> He avoided multiple strikes, tagged her multiple times



He avoided two shots. Tsunade avoided his first and only got tagged by his second _because she was airborne_, yet she still managed to _hit Kabuto back_ the second she touched the ground again.

That's not Kabuto outclassing Tsunade, that's an out of shape and tired Tsunade still managing to keep up with someone who was better than they had ever been at the same time. In any other circumstance (starting fresh when they actually engaged and/or Kabuto not boosting himself with the Hyorogan prior) part 1 Tsunade would have run over Kabuto, part 2 Tsunade even moreso.



> She actually rushed him when he had his eyes closed gloating.



Kabuto only closed his eyes for the time it took him to adjust his glasses, like a lot of normal people who wear glasses do, which takes less than a second.



> Prior to that she couldn't hit him and  herself in the attempt.



_Because Kabuto and Orochimaru were simply running in the opposite direction_ from Tsunade instead of fighting her. She wasn't attacking the entire way either or else Jman and co would have simply followed the trail of fissures and craters instead of relying on Tonton's nose to find her (also noticeable by the absence of said fissures and craters from the background of the grassy waves prairie).

The most you can glean from that is that she couldn't outrun Kabuto when out of shape.

Moreover, Kabuto is a medical specialist and thus probably more slippery than most to begin with- I mean look at the anticipatory ability that a Jutsu like In'yu Shometsu requires. Kabuto can predict how an opponent would attack even based off of such things as facial expressions.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Infernal Imp (Apr 13, 2017)

I say overrated, strictly speaking from my experience. I've seen things being said like:
-She's a good counter to Nagato
-She low diffs unrestricted Kisame 
-She can best Itachi (this man hard-counters her to hell, people)
-Katsuyu Army (part of the Itachi thing)
-Katsuya-sama herself (she can low diff Orochimaru with acid )
-Being Gai's equal in taijutsu

On the other hand, there are some pretty crazy downplayers out there too. P1 3t Sasuke isn't touching her. He gets his ass beat so hard by her that he'll rethink hating his nii-san the most afterwards.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Infernal Imp said:


> She low diffs unrestricted Kisame



Damnit spit out my drink. She can't beat him let alone low diff  



Infernal Imp said:


> She can best Itachi (this man hard-counters her to hell, people)



Genjutsu rapes her
Totsuka rapes her.



Infernal Imp said:


> -Katsuyu Army (part of the Itachi thing)
> -Katsuya-sama herself (she can low diff Orochimaru with acid )




@Bonly he's disrespecting her

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Jad (Apr 13, 2017)

People say Tsunade has major exposure as a fighter in her Ninja days. But she said, from only since coming up with Byakugo, can a medic fight as well. That's based on her tenants. That tells me that in her past she wasn't engaging in fights as much as people like to believe.

Also Tsunade does not come close to Gai's experience in Taijutsu. That's another overrated comment that gets made too often in my opinion. There is no justification.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 13, 2017)

Fact is that she was a fighter before she ever became a medical specialist, though, and developed an array of offensive applications for medical Ninjutsu back in the day once she became a medic. Jiraiya said Tsunade was without peer in _both_ battle and medical Jutsu, and even if that was hyperbolic it goes way too far provided Tsunade went without major exposure as a fighter.

There's also the fact that Tsunade herself said being the medical specialist is no excuse to not be able to fight on the front lines.


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## LostSelf (Apr 13, 2017)

Veracity said:


> CES wasn't exactly a thing in Part 1. That's probably why unless I'm wrong



Now i realize i said Katsuyu instead of Kabuto.

Stay away of my mind, queen slug! I worship the church of the almighty GG, may he one day return and put us all in our place!

I also don't want any troubles with Bonly.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 13, 2017)

Veracity said:


> But no Raikage does not survive a punch just because he's a tank. If he is inferior in durability to RC Sussano than he isn't surviving. And if he doesn't die then he is no condition to even move. He gets one shorted. Same with Kisame, I don't even have to dive into that at all. His extreme strength doesn't stop him from dying.


You're wrong, he's more durable than Tsunade and likewise would have no problem surviving her assault as his durability was compared to that of the 3rd Raikage who legitimately tanked FRS. I don't understand how this is even debatable, if you want further proof, just look at how he did against the 5 Susano'o, he was engaging them the same as Tsunade was—with taijutsu—and didn't have a scratch on him.



> Except Tsuande's durability isn't in relation to her strength because she's using chakra. So Raikage surviving Mabui's techinque doesn't mean much in the face of CES.


Raikage did not have a scratch on him however Tsunade she needed (2) hits to break through the core of Susano'o, clearly one wasn't enough especially since she had the backing of Oonoki, Raikage and Mei.


> I'm under the impression you didn't read anything I typed. You can rule the Pain and Juubito situation out from the start as using Katsuyu for offense would have gotten countless people killed. Good thing 1 v 1 battles are different scenarios where Tsuande isn't healing thousands of fodder. I discussed the Madara situation. So at worse there's a 50% chance she'll summon Katsuyu against an opponent.


Nothing to rule out, she never used her for that purpose and you want us to believe that she can somehow manage this not only in front of no summons but against a single person? There is nothing to discuss about the Madara situation, she didn't use it because Katsuyu obviously isn't useful as a summon on the offensive. If the best thing you have going for you is the acid which can likely be avoided, blocked and or countered, there isn't much it can do. I'm not sure why you hang your hopes on this so strongly but that's not how it works.



> Tsuande is definitely a true fighter. She's just a true fighter and a medical shinobi. That was obvious when she fared just as well as the other Kage despite not even having her summoning. If she wasn't a true fighter she would have been stomped by the clones.
> 
> •Tsuande didn't have Byakago or SS in past wars.
> • Tsuande was definitely a fighter against Madara. I mean was that not clear with the introduction of Byakago?
> ...



No she isn't. You just said that she developed this technique '*after*' her hype was established, meaning her hype and portrayal up until that point revolved around one thing and one thing alone—*her healing*. She isn't a front-line fighter, she's a stand-in or support shinobi, that's roughly it, since I've proven she loses against most of the Akatsuki shinobi, her Gokage peers and other elite jounin in a 1 vs. 1; there really isn't much of a discussion to be had about her offensive prowess. She can win against some, but to make ridiculously long shot theories about how her summons could turn into an army of indestructible acid spitting mice is plain ludicrous. It's about as likely as Kisame solo'ing Pain.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Veracity (Apr 13, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> You're wrong, he's more durable than Tsunade and likewise would have no problem surviving her assault as his durability was compared to that of the 3rd Raikage who legitimately tanked FRS. I don't understand how this is even debatable, if you want further proof, just look at how he did against the 5 Susano'o, he was engaging them the same as Tsunade was—with taijutsu—and didn't have a scratch on him.
> 
> 
> Raikage did not have a scratch on him however Tsunade she needed (2) hits to break through the core of Susano'o, clearly one wasn't enough especially since she had the backing of Oonoki, Raikage and Mei.
> ...



Just because he's more durable than Tsuande doesn't mean he can survive her attacks. Tsuande herself can't survive she attacks. The 3rd Raikage's durability is much greater than his sons. Just because AAAA could survive Mabui's techinque doesn't mean his durability is on his level. AAAA was pierced about 4 inches by Chidori while AAA survived FRS. The difference in durability is clear. Ay's on Raiton chops can cut through his arm with *no* resistance but have *no* effect on RC at all while Tsuande can not only bust the structure but also send Madara into a massive crater.

No that isn't further proof at all. Did you forget that Ay was previously the fastest shinobi in the world? Clearly he was avoiding their strikes because he has the speed to do so. Which becomes blatantly clear when Onoki risked his life to save Ay the moment the Sussano strikes were sure to land.

Bruh I can't believe we're reverting back to arguments that I have already refuted for you. Like this is a waste of time because you know exactly what I'm going to say:
• Madara's ribcage regenerates and regenerates all the damage that Mei and Tsuande previously did before Tsuande even came in contact with the structure the second time
• Ay's strike did a small crack in the back of the structure which doesn't alter the durability of the front of the structure( real world physics and feats of Danzo eradicating the back of Sasuke's Sussano) and even *if* it did, Tsuande kicked Madara into such a large crater that it would make up for that damage in spades. Think about the fact that Itachi's Sussano was eradicated by Kirin yet he retained no damage.

Katsuyu was used to attack Manda on top of the fact that she opted for the summoning before anyone else. I don't know why you keep saying it's never happened lol. The Madara situation is an outlier through. You've already admitted that it's good for defense yet she still didn't use it. So clearly Kishi didn't care or you can concede to the odds of her summoning being at about 50%.

I've already dismantled the notion that her hype stems completely from healing, I don't know why you keep clinging to that?:
•Jirayia and Oro both recognize her as a fighter.
• she was a fighter before she even became a legendary medical shinobi
• she is recognized as he strongest female shinobi
• she clearly displayed fighting prowess against Madara
• you seem to blatantly ignore her fight against the clones in which she performed just as well as everyone except Onoki. But she's not a fighter?

Tsuande was portrayed and hyped to be a close quarter specialist and fighter even before she developed Byakago. She has a maxed out taijustu score, stronger striking ability then the fucking Raikage, and all of her medical techinques can be used in battle; reverse shosen, PD, chakra scalpel, and CES. But she's not a fighter? I just don't understand that.


You have never proven that Tsunade loses to most Akatsuki members, Gokage peers or Jonin( Lol wtf). Don't even why you brought up that claim.

Reactions: Like 1


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## I Blue I (Apr 13, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> And i didn't say she has no evasion because she's a medic. I said a Medic is not more evasive than your average shinobi just because they are medic. Considering shinobis on the front lines needs to evade a lot more and they need to protect the medics as well. They are not punching bags. And due to that, they get more experience dodging due to wars than medics who are mostly only healing back in bases.
> 
> A lot of times i've seen "Tsunade is the best medic, she is excellent at evasion" and i just disagree with that. She's good at evasion because she's skilled. Not because she's a medic. Medics are, imo and logically, less evasive than fighters.
> 
> As long as we're talking about a close general level.



I would argue that combat medics would need to be just as skilled as fighters in evasion, if not more so. Most combat and warfare in the Narutoverse involves teams/platoons of shinobi clashing against each other. Naturally, the healer becomes the opposition's prime target. Eliminating the medic to facilitate picking off the rest of the team is a common strategy. The fact that the medic needs to be stationary while healing their teammates also suggests that they would need to be agile enough to keep themselves and the wounded out of harm's way. This is why Tsunade considers it paramount to teach her students evasion and the ability to discern enemy attack patterns.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Skaddix (Apr 13, 2017)

Offing the healer is the general tactic because classically. Healers have been sitting ducks that are easy to off. 
Her insane regeneration changes that though. Now offing the healer first its taking you too much time. While someone like Jiriaya is tearing up your team.


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## I Blue I (Apr 13, 2017)

It isn't so much that healers are easy to kill as it is that you gain a massive advantage once they are eliminated. Your enemy no longer has anyone to tend to their injuries and rejuvenate them. The regeneration technique allows medics to forego the rules and fight on the frontlines because there is no threat of the medic being killed.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Skaddix (Apr 13, 2017)

Its a combination in the classic RPG sense.
Massive advantage doesn't take long to kill.
Shizune would be the more classic cleric or priest. Limited Offense, Great Healing, and Easy to takedown.
Tsunade is more Paladin. Hard to put down thanks to great durability and self healing on top but no real ranged abilities.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Veracity (Apr 13, 2017)

Skaddix said:


> Its a combination in the classic RPG sense.
> Massive advantage doesn't take long to kill.
> Shizune would be the more classic cleric or priest. Limited Offense, Great Healing, and Easy to takedown.
> Tsunade is more Paladin. Hard to put down thanks to great durability and selfing healing on top but no real ranged abilities.


Katsuyu is her ranged attack

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 13, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> @Godaime Tsunade  these are just a few i picked on top of my mind. There's still Sasuke, Killer Bee, Rock Lee can get a pass, Sage Naruto... I don't remember right now the entire Kage spectrum. But i do think the majority that focuses on close combat have close to her evasion or even better. With the speedesters being the best.



Sasuke is a God-Tier, Killer Bee and SM Naruto are (higher-class) High Tiers. Rock Lee hasn't shown to possess any better evasive skills than Tsunade has. Again, you're naming characters that are at the very top end of the shinobi spectrum. Tsunade is a High Mid/Low High Kage level. Barely anyone at her level has the same kind of evasive skill.



> And i didn't say she has no evasion because she's a medic. I said a Medic is not more evasive than your average shinobi just because they are medic. Considering shinobis on the front lines needs to evade a lot more and they need to protect the medics as well. They are not punching bags. And due to that, they get more experience dodging due to wars than medics who are mostly only healing back in bases.



I just don't know why you brought that up whenever Tsunade isn't just a medic - she's got more battle experience and skill than many of the same people in her tier bracket.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 13, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> She isn't a front-line fighter



 you serious? Kishimoto made it pretty damn obvious that she is

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dano (Apr 13, 2017)

I Blue I said:


> I would argue that combat medics would need to be just as skilled as fighters in evasion, if not more so. Most combat and warfare in the Narutoverse involves teams/platoons of shinobi clashing against each other. Naturally, the healer becomes the opposition's prime target. Eliminating the medic to facilitate picking off the rest of the team is a common strategy. The fact that the medic needs to be stationary while healing their teammates also suggests that they would need to be agile enough to keep themselves and the wounded out of harm's way. This is why Tsunade considers it paramount to teach her students evasion and the ability to discern enemy attack patterns.


Yes you are right:

*Spoiler*: __ 








This along with "pattern reading" are what should distinguish medic ninjas from normal ones. Evasion is even more important than being a skillful ninja medic by Tsuna's words. Albeit most medic ninjas were too weak or slow in the series to actually make this statement true at all. Same could be applied to sensor type fighters.


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## Santoryu (Apr 15, 2017)

Veracity said:


> You really think the Sannin have *ZERO CHANCE* against Kakashi? Like really? Just think about that for a second. You didn't say Kakashi wins more times than not or that Kakashi is simply superior; rather that there is no chance that a Sannin member can beat Kakashi. Lol



Yes.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 15, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> Yes.



Elaborate because even you know thats bs

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Santoryu (Apr 15, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Elaborate because even you know thats bs



Any of them are capable of giving him varying levels of difficulty depending on simulations, but even if they were to dictate the battle and Kakashi didn't open with Kamui, he can always fall back on it as a last resort.

Sharingan Kakashi  has a technique which bypasses Tsunade's regeneration and Orochimaru's irregular durability. The evidence for Sage Mode Jiraiya being able to evade it is non existent. He can physically keep up with any of them thanks to the Sharingan. In addition, his tactical acuity towers over the Sannins'.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## FlamingRain (Apr 16, 2017)

If Kakashi doesn't open with the Mangekyo he runs the risk of the Sannin making themselves either too big or too numerous (doppelgangers, summons, Yamata) for that technique, and Kakashi being more tactical wouldn't necessarily matter so long as the Sannin themselves were tactical enough to deal with Kakashi's skill-set.

That might be what Veracity is thinking.

I think Kakashi would probably use Kamui right away, though.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 16, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> Any of them are capable of giving him varying levels of difficulty depending on simulations, but even if they were to dictate the battle and Kakashi didn't open with Kamui, he can always fall back on it as a last resort.
> 
> Sharingan Kakashi  has a technique which bypasses Tsunade's regeneration and Orochimaru's irregular durability. The evidence for Sage Mode Jiraiya being able to evade it is non existent. He can physically keep up with any of them thanks to the Sharingan. In addition, his tactical acuity towers over the Sannins'.



Which Kakashi is this , War arc or pein arc?


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## Mithos (Apr 17, 2017)

Lol at Kamui by itself guaranteeing a defeat for the Sannin (or any Kage level character, really). Kakashi's had it all throughout Part II and improved his accuracy well before the War Arc. Yet, even when Kakashi could Kamui a nail, a missile, or a Susano'o arrow, he seemed to consider himself inferior to Jiraiya. He had Kamui against Pain but died. He had it against Kakuzu but was losing the battle. Most of its best feats are defensive or supplementary uses, not offensive. The forum is so quick to write off "interception feats" but most of Kamui's best feats are basically inconsistent interception feats for dramatic effect. 

"Kamui, GG" is a prime example of the battledome's supposedly "objective" analysis of feats flying in the face of manga portrayal. 

Kakashi has a shot at beating any of the Sannin, but he most likely loses to them all.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 17, 2017)

Mithos said:


> Lol at Kamui by itself guaranteeing a defeat for the Sannin (or any Kage level character, really). Kakashi's had it all throughout Part II and improved his accuracy well before the War Arc. Yet, even when Kakashi could Kamui a nail, a missile, or a Susano'o arrow, he seemed to consider himself inferior to Jiraiya. He had Kamui against Pain but died. He had it against Kakuzu but was losing the battle. Most of its best feats are defensive or supplementary uses, not offensive. The forum is so quick to write off "interception feats" but most of Kamui's best feats are basically inconsistent interception feats for dramatic effect.
> 
> "Kamui, GG" is a prime example of the battledome's supposedly "objective" analysis of feats flying in the face of manga portrayal.




Well, War rc Kakashi was more open to this kind of things. In fact, when he's facing powerful shinobis that he needs to deal with, he usually tends to use it offensively. When he thought Obito was Madara, he was going to use it right away but Obito stopped him telling him it wouldn't work.

When he saw the threat of Gedo Mazo, he used it offensively as well. 

Him using Kamui against Pain as his last resort is something more about team sacrifices rather than winning the fight against someone he knows it's not there. Killing Deva Path wouldn't have changed anything. Nagato could've sent another Deva Path. And Kakashi thought even of a plan to not only formulate Deva's jutsu, wich he did to the help of Konoha that relied on it, but to defeat Deva without the use of Kamui.

In an invasion, going spamming Kamui and being useless after that, knowing he killed just a pawn without discovering a tactic to combat it it's not a good idea.

But in the war it's a different thing. In the war Kakashi even warps using Kamui. I don't think Kakashi in the war considered himself below Jiraiya anymore. Not being able to use it without feeling much stress. Also, i don't think his "And Jiraiya faced 6 of them?! That's insane" counts as him feeling in ferior. It goes more to "This guy is nuts" because in the end, Jiraiya died by those 6, and Fukusaku not sharing knowledge on Shinra Tensei might mean they either met the jutsu but couldn't do a thing about it, to counter it, or Deva didn't even use it.

Either way, though. War Kakashi is a different animal. I do see him resorting to it offensively the moment he finds himself threatened. Especially with all the knowledge on the Sannin he had.

In fact, i think if Kakashi had Kamui back then, when Oro intimidated him, Orochimaru would've gotten a trip to boxland.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 17, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Just because he's more durable than Tsuande doesn't mean he can survive her attacks. Tsuande herself can't survive she attacks. The 3rd Raikage's durability is much greater than his sons. Just because AAAA could survive Mabui's techinque doesn't mean his durability is on his level. AAAA was pierced about 4 inches by Chidori while AAA survived FRS. The difference in durability is clear. *Ay's on Raiton chops can cut through his arm with no resistance but have no effect on RC at all while Tsuande can not only bust the structure but also send Madara into a massive crater*.



4th Raikage was compared to the 3rd Raikage's durability both of which could survive Tsunade's assaults (CES or not).
While engaging Sasuke, the Raikage wasn't using his fastest/most durable form.
The combination assault of the Gokage is what allowed Tsunade to break the RC and it took (2) strikes from Tsunade to do it.



Veracity said:


> No that isn't further proof at all. Did you forget that Ay was previously the fastest shinobi in the world? Clearly he was avoiding their strikes because he has the speed to do so. Which becomes blatantly clear when Onoki risked his life to save Ay the moment the Sussano strikes were sure to land.


By that time Tsunade was already skewered a few times, so Raikage proved to be a much more difficult opponent to engage than Tsunade.



Veracity said:


> • Madara's ribcage regenerates and regenerates all the damage that Mei and Tsuande previously did before Tsuande even came in contact with the structure the second time


The attack was a combination among the Gokage, not allowing Madara enough time to readjust as he was hit from the back and front.


Veracity said:


> • Ay's strike did a small crack in the back of the structure which doesn't alter the durability of the front of the structure( real world physics and feats of Danzo eradicating the back of Sasuke's Sussano) and even *if* it did, Tsuande kicked Madara into such a large crater that it would make up for that damage in spades. Think about the fact that Itachi's Sussano was eradicated by Kirin yet he retained no damage.


Itachi had the yata mirror which negated Kirin, due to it's pseudo-truthseeker effect.


Veracity said:


> Katsuyu was used to attack Manda on top of the fact that she opted for the summoning before anyone else. I don't know why you keep saying it's never happened lol. The Madara situation is an outlier through. You've already admitted that it's good for defense yet she still didn't use it. So clearly Kishi didn't care or you can concede to the odds of her summoning being at about 50%.


Katsuyu is a non-factor as determined by Tsunade herself, if she used it in her fight against the 5 Susano'o, I would have backed off this notion all together. She didn't, there for Katsuyu for all intents and purposes is useless on the offensive end, as determined by Tsunade's own actions.



Veracity said:


> I've already dismantled the notion that her hype stems completely from healing, I don't know why you keep clinging to that?:


Where? No, you haven't.


Veracity said:


> •Jirayia and Oro both *recognize her as a fighter.*


Teammates recognizing her fighting ability is different han being renknowned for .


Veracity said:


> • *she was a fighter before she even became a legendary medical shinobi*


All shinobi are trained in basic combat beforehand, however as you said she was known for her 'legendary medical status' more than her ability to fight.


Veracity said:


> • she is recognized as he *strongest female shinobi*


So? I don't see how this changes anything.


Veracity said:


> • she clearly displayed fighting prowess against Madara


This happened after her portrayal/hype were established, not before so this has nothing to do with how she was perceived. More to the point, her initial role in that fight was that of a healer not an offensive force. It wasn't until the other Gokage were unable to close the deal that she had to step in.



Veracity said:


> • you seem to blatantly ignore her fight against the clones in which she performed just as well as everyone except Onoki. But she's not a fighter?


Let's not get it twisted, she wasn't surviving that fight because of her skill because if she was she wouldn't have the injuries she did. She was surviving that fight thanks to her healing abilities.



Veracity said:


> Tsuande was portrayed and hyped to be a close quarter specialist and fighter even before she developed Byakago. She has a maxed out taijustu score, stronger striking ability then the fucking Raikage, and all of her medical techinques can be used in battle; reverse shosen, PD, chakra scalpel, and CES. But she's not a fighter? I just don't understand that.


She's still not a front-line fighter, like Jiraiya, Naruto, Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi—she can only succeed in a certain subset of situations. As I've said before her fighting style is easily exploited by long range jutsu users, unorthodox users, shinobi faster than her and those with comparable or better taijutsu skill.



Veracity said:


> You have never proven that Tsunade loses to most Akatsuki members, Gokage peers or Jonin( Lol wtf). Don't even why you brought up that claim.


I have in numerous threads—I'll mention my summary here.

Against Deidara: C2 barrage/C3/C4 gg.
Against Sasori: Loses w/o anti-dote.
Against Kakuzu: Gian bisects her, gg.
Against Itachi: Genjutsu gg.
Against Pain: 
Against Nagato: 
Against Obito: Genjutsu gg.
Against Konan: Paper Ocean gg.
Against Suigetsu: He drowns her.
Against Sasuke: Genjutsu gg or Amatearsu gg.
Against Oonoki: Jinton gg.
Against Gaara: Desert Coffin gg.
Against Raikage: Decapitation lariat gg.
Against Mei: This could go 50/50 depending how it goes.
Against Danzo: Izanagi gg.
Against Jiraiya: 
Against Gai: 5th Gate+ gg.
Against Kakashi: RKB+Raikiri gg. Genjutsu gg.
I could go on but you get the point, these guys are poor match ups for her.


Mithos said:


> "Kamui, GG" is a prime example of the battledome's supposedly "objective" analysis of feats flying in the face of manga portrayal.


It's a much more established and grounded claim than an indestructible acid spitting slug army solo'ing Itachi

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Veracity (Apr 17, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> 4th Raikage was compared to the 3rd Raikage's durability both of which could survive Tsunade's assaults (CES or not).
> While engaging Sasuke, the Raikage wasn't using his fastest/most durable form.
> The combination assault of the Gokage is what allowed Tsunade to break the RC and it took (2) strikes from Tsunade to do it.
> By that time Tsunade was already skewered a few times, so Raikage proved to be a much more difficult opponent to engage than Tsunade.
> ...



This shit stupid late lmao. But I'll reply just give me some time.


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## Veracity (Apr 18, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> 4th Raikage was compared to the 3rd Raikage's durability both of which could survive Tsunade's assaults (CES or not).
> While engaging Sasuke, the Raikage wasn't using his fastest/most durable form.
> The combination assault of the Gokage is what allowed Tsunade to break the RC and it took (2) strikes from Tsunade to do it.
> By that time Tsunade was already skewered a few times, so Raikage proved to be a much more difficult opponent to engage than Tsunade.
> ...



•Pure conjecture. Being compared to someone =\= having the exact same attributes. AAA was compared to AAAA in speed despite the blatant speed differences. Point is, AAAA doesn't have the durability to survive CES because he's less durable than RC. So he's gets killed quite frankly.
• LMAO what? V2 flicker is his fastest speed step and he can't get anymore durable than that. So no.
•  Been over this many times. Madara's Sussano regenerated Tsuande's first blow and Mei's water dragon( it's literally shown) and Ay's tiny crack that he put in the back of the Sussano wouldn't have weakens the durability of the front. And if you think so, that's null and void because Tsuande hit Madara with well more than enough power to obliterate the structure on her own because Madara flew into a giant crater and Sussano users can have their structure obliterated and take no damage at all. So her kick was extraordinary.

Naw because Ay needed to be saved unlike Tsuande and Tsunades fighting style works around taking hits to land them. She was shown landing hits while Ay wasn't so why are you taking points away from her when that's how she fights? Wolverine is almost like a punching bag every time he fights but it's effective and it's what makes him powerful right?

Yeah the Gokage created the opening for Tsuande to land that blow but it doesn't mean they helped crack the RC.

Zero evidence that Itachi used Yata to block Kirin. Why the hell would he activate full powered up Sussano and reflect Kirin and then depower the whole thing right after? Doesn't make sense.

Tsuande obviously thought Katsuyu was helpful to fight Oro, so again.... 50% summoning rate. And that was 2 vs 1 in her favor.

Yes I did. Tsuande lasting longer than Mei against the Sussano clones even without defense from Katsuyu = Tsuande being a fighter. Mei is a fighter and she's literally a Kage. So Tsuande clearly is a fighter.

Of course Tsuande's not revered for her fighting ability. Not only did she not have SS or Byakago( think about the fact that she's used Byakago once in battle and SS twice. Not quite enough to work up the battle hype right) but being the greatest medical ninja alive> being a mid Kage level fighter. If Mei or Kakashi were the greatest medical ninja alive, it would outshadow their fighting abilities easily.

Not really. What portrayal was really founded? Nobody founded her fighting portrayal on SS because she only used it once and perhaps her greatest combat asset( Byakago) made its debut against Madara lol. That was the point. Tsuande wasn't the best of fighters before( although she was great enough to scare Jirayia and Oro) because she only had taijustu and CES. With Byakago and SS, she's a Gokage Level fighter.


That might be one of the most ridiculous statements you've made today. Tsuande wasn't surviving because of healing. She was surviving because of regeneration. Which is literally what she said was the reason as to why she could fight Madara head on. You can't take that away from Tsuande, that's how she fights. Byakago is the reason she's Gokage Level, so of course she was going to use that shit.

She's a front line fighter like Ay, Gaara, and Mei. That was made clear in the Madara fight and that's even without Katsuyu.

Do you really expect me to take those bold points seriously? That rough and vague outline of why *YOU* think the Akatsuki wins and that's suppose to be proof? That's about as much proof as me saying that Tsuande beats Itachi because CES GG. You really said Konan wins via paper ocean and that suigestu beats her via drowning, and thought I was gonna take that seriously lol.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 18, 2017)

> Resorting to the phobia suggests otherwise.


When he was at 80%, I'd of done the same. There are kage levels that would move to that strategy if they were only at 80% movement against One Finger Tsunade.



> He avoided two shots. Tsunade avoided his first and only got tagged by his second _because she was airborne_, yet she still managed to _hit Kabuto back_ the second she touched the ground again.


He avoided 3 strikes, and likely a dozen prior to that.



> That's not Kabuto outclassing Tsunade, that's an out of shape and tired Tsunade still managing to keep up with someone who was better than they had ever been at the same time. In any other circumstance (starting fresh when they actually engaged and/or Kabuto not boosting himself with the Hyorogan prior) part 1 Tsunade would have run over Kabuto, part 2 Tsunade even moreso.


Out of Shape is the reason Kabuto was able to compete with her. You don't get to use that as an excuse, Rusty Tsunade is indeed just that, a rusty version.

2nd War Tsunade, and Part 2 Tsunade, are not the versions that fought Kabuto.



> Kabuto only closed his eyes for the time it took him to adjust his glasses, like a lot of normal people who wear glasses do, which takes less than a second.


Which to genin, who can break the sound barrier, is enough time to attack him from 5m away *several times over.* For a kage level shinobi exploiting this deliberate window of vulnerability is child's play.

He believed she could not move. He believed even if she could move, her super strength was gone, and she was no threat to him because of this.

This is no different than MS Sasuke getting a Lariat to the chest when he thought Genjutsu finished Killer Bee. Except that Kabuto's eyes were closed, and Sasuke's MS Eye was open.

He closed his eyes while bragging, then she casually exploited the window and chopped him.



> _Because Kabuto and Orochimaru were simply running in the opposite direction_ from Tsunade instead of fighting her. She wasn't attacking the entire way either or else Jman and co would have simply followed the trail of fissures and craters instead of relying on Tonton's nose to find her (also noticeable by the absence of said fissures and craters from the background of the grassy waves prairie).


This is not relevant. Avoiding her attacks was a deliberate strategy for Kabuto, which worked out perfectly.

Her inability to land a single finger on him, which would result in killing him instantly, is a pethetic performance for her. He wasn't even armed so you can't even debate that he used a weapon to prevent her from touching him.



> The most you can glean from that is that she couldn't outrun Kabuto when out of shape.


The most we can discern from that is her attacks were too slow and predictable to land on a medical ninja who outright stated he lacked skill in taijutsu - that is - the form of jutsu Tsunade was attacking him with the entire time - and failed to land a finger on.


> Moreover, Kabuto is a medical specialist and thus probably more slippery than most to begin with- I mean look at the anticipatory ability that a Jutsu like In'yu Shometsu requires. Kabuto can predict how an opponent would attack even based off of such things as facial expressions.


Oh sure. He knows how to heal people, so now he's qualified to avoid kage level shinobi for extended periods.

Absolutely not.

Just because Tsunade implied medical shinobi should be evasive - doesn't mean they, or Kabuto specifically, are exceptional at it, or that medical shinobi are more evasive than the infranty shinobi, the ones who's job it is to engage in deadly combat.

Part 2 Kabuto runs face first into KN3 Naruto's chakra sphere fart and is knocked unconscious, Tsunade is the only Gokage to be mortally wounded against pre-PS Madara - not once - four times, and had to be saved from a basic katon by Mei.

Not only has Part 1 Kabuto shown nothing that implies adept evasion skills, Tsunade has shown consistently that she defeinitely is not adept at avoiding attacks throughout the entire series. She's a one punch fighter with a technique that can regrow limbs and sustain life/movement without organs or a spinal cord and all-manga life force, evasion would be largely useless to this fighter even if she had shown master capacity.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 18, 2017)

How did the forums not alert me to that post?

Did you copy paste it then put it in quotes or...?



DaVizWiz said:


> When he was 80%



Tsunade wasn't even at that, so...



> He avoided 3 strikes, and likely a dozen prior to that.



We literally see him running in the opposite direction prior to that, so no. Kabuto was further than Tsunade's arms and legs would reach, meaning she wouldn't have been throwing strikes up until that point. Such is evidenced by the lack of craters in the wide open background of the grassy waves prairie.



> Out of Shape is the reason Kabuto was able to compete with her. You don't get to use that as an excuse, Rusty Tsunade is indeed just that, a rusty version.
> 
> 2nd War Tsunade, and Part 2 Tsunade, are not the versions that fought Kabuto.



Out of shape, out of practice, and almost out of breath* are the reasons* Kabuto was able to compete with her; he didn't even get close to her before that point. Reasons, not excuses.

Troyse simply referred to Tsunade, not rusty Tsunade as a separate character. If you're implying that the in-shape versions of Tsunade would have been too much for Kabuto to compete with there's not much to talk about.



> Which to genin, who can break the sound barrier, is enough time to attack him from 5m away *several times over.* For a kage level shinobi exploiting this deliberate window of vulnerability is child's play.



I think the fact that even speedy characters such as Kakashi have issues capitalizing on five second intervals suggests that Kishimoto doesn't believe Genin can do that.



> This is not relevant.



It's relevant because that's a matter of direct movement speed from point A to B, which isn't what Troyse brought up and isn't what I was talking about. Even part 1 Kakashi wasn't able to simply chase Kabuto down like that, or he probably would have done it when they met at the hospital.

The entire point of the tactic was to go towards overcoming the fact that Kabuto could not otherwise compete with Tsunade up close.



> The most we can discern from that is her attacks were too slow and predictable to land on a medical ninja who outright stated he lacked skill in taijutsu - that is - the form of jutsu Tsunade was attacking him with the entire time - and failed to land a finger on.
> Oh sure. He knows how to heal people, so now he's qualified to avoid kage level shinobi for extended periods.



Kabuto said he wasn't much for Taijutsu- i.e.- he didn't prefer it/it wasn't his forte- it doesn't mean he wasn't skilled at it at all. He spent _most_ of the encounter _avoiding engaging Tsunade in Taijutsu to begin with_, up until he ingested the Hyorogan.



> Just because Tsunade implied medical shinobi should be evasive - doesn't mean they, or Kabuto specifically, are exceptional at it, or that medical shinobi are more evasive than the infranty shinobi, the ones who's job it is to engage in deadly combat.



She said it outright, she didn't merely imply it.

For a lot of Tsunade's career it was her job to engage in that same deadly combat because she didn't become a medical specialist until _after_ the war had already started. As someone else mentioned earlier, becoming the medical specialist would have made her a prime target for other cells of ninja, so considering she and other medical ninja did not have Sozo Saisei to rely on they would have to be pretty evasive as even medical specialists cannot heal injuries to vital organs with their standard lot of techniques.



> Not only has Part 1 Kabuto shown nothing that implies adept evasion skills, Tsunade has shown consistently that she defeinitely is not adept at avoiding attacks throughout the entire series. She's a one punch fighter with a technique that can regrow limbs and sustain life/movement without organs or a spinal cord and all-manga life force, evasion would be largely useless to this fighter even if she had shown master capacity.



Escaping Kakashi and Shizune's assaults suggests adeptness at evasion, as does being able to predict attacks based on things such as facial expressions.

If Tsunade can avoid a hand popping out mere inches away from her ankle, and taught Sakura so that she could eventually catch onto Sasori's attack pattern and avoid it without Chiyo interfering (which got her called a "hawk"), then Tsunade is adept at avoiding attacks. That Tsunade got hit when forced to get into melee-range with a team of Susano'o that had a massive reach advantage over her does not mean she isn't adept at avoiding attacks, especially since Ay implied that she had been evading the attacks earlier. The other Kage could keep their distance and rely on things such as golems and doppelgangers, streams and shields of sand, and spews of water and lava. Well...except Ay, who actually blocked attacks.

You're last sentence could be onto something, only insofar as the fact that Tsunade has that technique doesn't necessarily preclude evasiveness.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Apr 18, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Part 2 Kabuto runs face first into KN3 Naruto's chakra sphere fart and is knocked unconscious, Tsunade is the only Gokage to be mortally wounded against pre-PS Madara - not once - four times, and had to be saved from a basic katon by Mei.
> 
> Not only has Part 1 Kabuto shown nothing that implies adept evasion skills, Tsunade has shown consistently that she defeinitely is not adept at avoiding attacks throughout the entire series. She's a one punch fighter with a technique that can regrow limbs and sustain life/movement without organs or a spinal cord and all-manga life force, evasion would be largely useless to this fighter even if she had shown master capacity.



Naw you aren't getting away with this passage.

Are you serious about Tsuande being wounded? Is that not part of her fighting style? Did she not have Katsuyu out at all? Was she not the only Kage that was shown( besides Onoki) to have actually landed attacks on Madara? Are we gonna act like Mei wasn't inches away from dying before Gaara saved her? Are we gonna ignore the fact that Raikage was inches away from having 5 Sussano swords in his damn back before Onoki saved him? Are we gonna ignore the fact that Gaara was tossed off his sand like a child despite having the top defense tier defense and flight? Why are we ignoring all of this just to make Tsuande look bad? I never thought you downplayed Tsunade but recently you've been saying some insane stuff. Like Tsuande needing to be saved by Mei's Katon? That's outright false and you know it is.

So Tsuande who developed the medical system for her students to focus on top tier evasion isn't evasive herself? The women that taught fodder Sakura ways to read a Kage Level shinobi's finger movements to facilitate her evasive skills to dodge large AoE attacks isn't evasive? Needing Byakago to land attacks on a legendary Uchiha doesn't take away from your evasive skills. Madara is just that good.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 18, 2017)

In Tsunade's defense, Madara was able to land hits on Gai, no matter wich version of Gai was (Base to 7th gate). If he could land them on him, Tsunade not avoiding Madara is because the man is powerful and hard, pretty hard to dodge.

In Ei's defense, the only reason Madara's clones could tag him was because he was distracted. But then again, the 5 Susano'o clones didn't show who's better than who in a 1 vs 1 encounter. It's unfair considering only Onoki had jutsus to deal with them. The other 4 couldn't bypass them. And the clones themselves, if serious, could've ended with the lives of three of them (Gaara, Tsunade and Mei) when they were badly injured and surrounded.

I can see Tsunade being evasive. Even though, not at her peak. She possibly was good when she was young. After that, though, she hasn't, possibly trained too much on evasion and after being Hokage, she hasn't actually fought all and Byakugo allows her to survive hits to hit. So... not sure about her actual evasive skills.Good enough to put her above your normal characters (or kages like Gaara, for example), but not to put her above people like Kakashi, Itachi, Gai, etc. But that's not bad, either.


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## Veracity (Apr 18, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> In Tsunade's defense, Madara was able to land hits on Gai, no matter wich version of Gai was (Base to 7th gate). If he could land them on him, Tsunade not avoiding Madara is because the man is powerful and hard, pretty hard to dodge.
> 
> In Ei's defense, the only reason Madara's clones could tag him was because he was distracted. But then again, the 5 Susano'o clones didn't show who's better than who in a 1 vs 1 encounter. It's unfair considering only Onoki had jutsus to deal with them. The other 4 couldn't bypass them. And the clones themselves, if serious, could've ended with the lives of three of them (Gaara, Tsunade and Mei) when they were badly injured and surrounded.
> 
> I can see Tsunade being evasive. Even though, not at her peak. She possibly was good when she was young. After that, though, she hasn't, possibly trained too much on evasion and after being Hokage, she hasn't actually fought all and Byakugo allows her to survive hits to hit. So... not sure about her actual evasive skills.Good enough to put her above your normal characters (or kages like Gaara, for example), but not to put her above people like Kakashi, Itachi, Gai, etc. But that's not bad, either.



Tsuande seemed pretty blatantly in shape against Madara. Pretty sure she gained those evasive skills back. Hard to think she hits much harder and has much better speed feats but decided not to train her evasion back..

It's also to note that Tsuande was by far the most disadvantaged against the Sussano clones.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 18, 2017)

The clone already had Ay "pinned" with a blade before he looked at Tsunade.


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## LostSelf (Apr 18, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Tsuande seemed pretty blatantly in shape against Madara. Pretty sure she gained those evasive skills back. Hard to think she hits much harder and has much better speed feats but decided not to train her evasion back..
> 
> It's also to note that Tsuande was by far the most disadvantaged against the Sussano clones.



I don't think she hits harder. When Sakura blew up the battlefield Hashirama compared her to Tsunade. Not sure if Tsunade was a child when Hashi died, but she was possibly terribly young. And adding she didn't need to use chakra to look younger i can actually see her better being young. Physically.

Not to mention that training yourself in wars will definitely yield better results than doing it alone, or with a Sakura that was by far not the best training partner.

Unless, Tsunade trained with Gai, wich would explain everything .



FlamingRain said:


> The clone already had Ay "pinned" with a blade before he looked at Tsunade.



I saw that as him blocking. The earth not giving in, considering the blade didn't even shrugged Ei's armor could've made possibly for Ei to lower his arm and dodge with superior speed before the blade actually touched him.


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## Veracity (Apr 18, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I don't think she hits harder. When Sakura blew up the battlefield Hashirama compared her to Tsunade. Not sure if Tsunade was a child when Hashi died, but she was possibly terribly young. And adding she didn't need to use chakra to look younger i can actually see her better being young. Physically.
> 
> Not to mention that training yourself in wars will definitely yield better results than doing it alone, or with a Sakura that was by far not the best training partner.
> 
> Unless, Tsunade trained with Gai, wich would explain everything .


I meant from her Rusty State.


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## LostSelf (Apr 18, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I meant from her Rusty State.



Ohh then, yeah. By far.


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## Icelerate (Apr 18, 2017)

Tsunade is underrated on NB but overrated on NF.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## FlamingRain (Apr 19, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I saw that as him blocking. The earth not giving in, considering the blade didn't even shrugged Ei's armor could've made possibly for Ei to lower his arm and dodge with superior speed before the blade actually touched him.



Ay did block the Susano'o blade, but _the ground did give way_, so it gave the impression that Ay was "pinned" by the strike. I'm not saying that Ay wouldn't have been able to get out of it, but the fact is that Ay blocked it instead of evading it outright. It might've been because Ay had to, considering he was facing multiple Susano'o at once and not that single Susano'o one on one.


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## LostSelf (Apr 19, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Ay did block the Susano'o blade, but _the ground did give way_, so it gave the impression that Ay was "pinned" by the strike. I'm not saying that Ay wouldn't have been able to get out of it, but the fact is that Ay blocked it instead of evading it outright. It might've been because Ay had to, considering he was facing multiple Susano'o at once and not that single Susano'o one on one.



Oh yes, it's true. And yeah, i've been also saying (not here, but in tthreads like this in general) they were potent enough to force Ei to block.

I just wondered if he was rendered unable to dodge any upcoming assault with the blades without being distracted, then there was no point on grabbing him and putting him into genjutsu.

Or maybe Madara was looking to disperse his raiton cloack, or something.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Apr 29, 2017)

*Taking down Tsunade without specific knowledge is a tall task. 


The Power of the Godaime Hokage*

Tsunade, in spite of being one of the Sannin of legend, the Godaime Hokage, and having either the best or second best performance against Madara, is frequently underrated; to the point where many people believe she is incapable of defeating random Chunin one on one such as Tayuya or Kidomaru. Simply insinuating that she is Kage level makes some people shake their heads. Some go as far as to argue that anyone who has a higher databook score than her in speed can dodge all of her attacks indefinately, and easily defeat. Even many of her more mild supporters believe she is little more than support.

I'd like to make an argument on just how powerful Tsunade is even in direct combat, and what is means to fight her with no knowledge. Tsunade, in spite of her lack of versatility, has one of the most difficult arsenals in the Manga to counter without proper intel. Anyone fighting Tsunade without proper knowledge beforehand will face many daunting, if not impossible obstacles.

*
Obstacle one: Her Strength*

Tsunade has enough brute strength to tear through a Susano, and send another flying. That same Susano was only cracked by the Raikage, who is in turn strong enough to chop the horn off of the Hachibi. She could create craters with her finger, and liftedGamabunta’s giant dagger through the air without using chakra enhanced strength. Anyone less durable than Susano or the Hachibi’s horn would be torn to pieces by a direct hit by Tsunade’s punch. Some will be quick to point out that landing a punch is easier said than done, and that is true. None the less, without knowledge people will be less likely to take precautions.

Some characters, like Gai, and Ei, start most of their fights by engaging their opponents at close quarters without their full strength (Gates or Raiton Armor) activated, where they could certainly be overwhelmed (like Gai when he was hit by Kisame, or Ei when Sasuke managed to land a Chidori). Others, like Kisame, the 3rd Raikage, Killer Bee, like to test the waters with aggressive close quarters combat, where they could easily fall to a no knowledge punch. Other than the 3rd Raikage, she is capable of defeating any of these characters by landing a no knowledge punch early on, and there are more out there that I missed. So there are certainly people out there who would play right into her hand.

With Tsunade’s striking power, which is superior to all by feats, she can even land crippling injuries without landing a direct hit. Simply blocking her punches can break the blockers arm. People may say that characters will just avoid her punches rather than block, but that will not always happen. Without knowledge on her strength, they will attempt to block a few hits in all likely hood. We see characters in almost every fight block melee early on. Itachi attempting to block KCM Naruto, Pein blocking SM Jiraiya’s punch, Kakashi and Gai both blocked V2 Jinchuriki’s attacks with their arms, Kisame tried to block Gai’s attacks with the Samehada and over power him, and those are examples of characters blocking opponents attacks when they know their foe is reputed to have great physical strength.

So there is an extremely high probability of any number of Kage level or Jonin trying to block Tsunade’s punchs or kicks, even if they know she is reputed to be very strong. They would need specific information to know they need to block her melee.
So, simply not falling to one of Tsunade’s firsts punches is dangerous enough in and of itself. Assuming they get past that, it brings us to the next obstacle.



*Obstacle two: Ranshinshou*

With , Tsunade can create electricity (not a Raiton) and send it into her opponents nervous system via a tap, and once inside their nervous system it will scramble their nerves, leaving them paralyzed. She used this against Kabuto to leave him stuck on the ground helpless for a few minutes. Kabuto was only able to escape the Jutsu after laying there for a while due to his advanced medical knowledge, which applies to almost no characters outside Kabuto given that he is the only relevant medical Ninja, power wise, besides Tsunade.

Ranshinshou requires no seal, gives away no warning, and only requires a tap. With no knowledge on Ranshinshou, anyone who is simply tapped by Tsunade will be defeated if she decides to use it. It is easier to lay a finger on an opponent than land a punch, which makes this usefull for landing attacks. It can also be used to defeat or immobilize unkillable opponents, like Orochimaru, Kabuto, Edo Tensei, or possibly the 3rd Raikage provided it connects.

This is a Jutsu that requires very specific knowledge to no to avoid. Even Tsunade’s reputation would do an opponent no good against it. Getting past Ranshinshou would be difficult. If her opponent gets past it, they will be faced with the next obstacle.


*Obstacle three: Regeneration*

Tsunade has some of the greatest regeneration in the Naruto universe. The  tells use she can regenerate organs with Souzou Saisei, and it would seem odd if Byakugo were any different. She has the feats of surviving being impaled at least three
times by giant swords in those forms, and healing a stab through herspinal
cord in another fight. Katsuyu has indicated that she is capable of piecing Tsunade’s body back together after it was cut in half. Even without having her Yin Seal or upper tier regeneration, she was able to survive serious injuries against Kabuto, and counter attack, showing that she is very resilient even without her Jutsu. Tsunade has three major stunts she can pull with her regeneration.

One of them is to exchange blows. Let her opponent, who has no idea of her pseudo immortality, land a serious if not fatal hit on her, and proceed to strike back with either her strength or Ranshinshou. She is powerful to end almost anyone with this combo if they fall for it, but of course they might not go for it knowing the risk of getting hit by her strength.

Two is to fake a serious injury, and then strike her off guard opponent. After they land a serious injury that is “impossible” to endure, they will no longer believe Tsunade to be a serious threat. At that point, she can land her hit against an unsuspecting opponent. She pulled this off against part one Kabuto, an elite Jonin on par with part one Kakashi. She also endured Orochimaru’s stab through her spinal cord before she even activated her regeneration. This strategy already has precedent for working on high level opponents, and she has already used it.

The third, and perhaps the most difficult to counter, is Tsunade straight up playing dead after she is “killed”. Anyone who has read a “fill in blank character in Jiraiya’s situation vs Pein” knows that perhaps the biggest question is “how does blank avoid getting ambushed by an opponent who believes he is dead? Jiraiya and two other sensors failed to figure it out”. Tsunade is capable of doing essentially the exact same thing to anyone that Pein did when his first three Paths “died” against Jiraiya. She already played dead against Madara, and in spite of having an EMS and Rinnegan, he failed to see that Tsunade had survived his attack. She actually managed to catch Madara by surprise, but he just so happened to have Susano active to deal with the other Gokage. She could wait for her opponent to go to bed at night and kill them in their sleep if she wanted, but she only needs just one tap or Susano busting punch.

She could defeat virtually anyone by playing dead and waiting for them to let their guard down.


*Obstacle Number Four: Godaime Hokage*

Congratulations, if you’ve made it this far, you have gone through Tsunade’s biggest surprises and avoided her tricks. Now all you have to do is defeat the Godaime Hokage and Sannin of legend.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Apr 29, 2017)

On net I rank her individual battle prowess as solidly Mid Kage and above most Akutsuki besides the big three (Nagato, Obito, Itachi). 

In a team setting her value increases to High Kage.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Charmed (Apr 29, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> 4th Raikage was compared to the 3rd Raikage's durability both of which could survive Tsunade's assaults (CES or not).
> While engaging Sasuke, the Raikage wasn't using his fastest/most durable form.
> The combination assault of the Gokage is what allowed Tsunade to break the RC and it took (2) strikes from Tsunade to do it.
> By that time Tsunade was already skewered a few times, so Raikage proved to be a much more difficult opponent to engage than Tsunade.
> ...



Cool! actually Mei kills Tsunade, because Mei is an offensive ninja that has spent her entire life on the front lines, while Tsunade is more of a healer.
Also, Mei is mid-long range and Tsunade is close combat ninja.
Mei had no scratches against 5 Susano, while Tsunade was being stabbed horribly.

So I suppose Mei is better.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mithos (Apr 29, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Cool! actually Mei kills Tsunade, because Mei is an offensive ninja that has spent her entire life on the front lines, while Tsunade is more of a healer.



Tsunade isn't only a healer. She's _also_ an offensive ninja. 


*Spoiler*: _Scans_ 











> Mei had no scratches against 5 Susano, while Tsunade was being stabbed horribly.



What manga are you reading? Mei was about to get rekt.





> So I suppose Mei is better.



No, she isn't.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Cool! actually Mei kills Tsunade, because Mei is an offensive ninja that has spent her entire life on the front lines, while Tsunade is more of a healer.
> Also, Mei is mid-long range and Tsunade is close combat ninja.
> Mei had no scratches against 5 Susano, while Tsunade was being stabbed horribly.
> 
> So I suppose Mei is better.




Mei is better, but not by much


Tsunade would beat her because Katsuyu is the only thing that makes Tsunade Kage level, or a mildly decently Shinobi for that matter


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## Charmed (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Mei is better, but not by much
> 
> 
> Tsunade would beat her because Katsuyu is the only thing that makes Tsunade Kage level, or a mildly decently Shinobi for that matter


and what are Katsuyu's offensive capabilities? if its Acid, it's countered easily with massive suiton combo.
if it's Katsuyu army, like what are they gonna do, squish Mei to death?
Katsuyu is better for healing people than as an offensive Summon.


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## Charmed (Apr 29, 2017)

Mithos said:


> Tsunade isn't only a healer. She's _also_ an offensive ninja.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Scans_
> ...


And still she wasn't even hurt by that Susano Punch, like at all, she tanked it like a Pro, while Tsunade was, iirc, spitting blood on her knees and stabbed by like, 2 Susy Swords or so...

Yes Tsunade can go offensive too, why not? but the thing is Mei has been an offensive ninja all her life with 2 K.G, while Tsunade had trouble handling the likes of Chiyo even when she had Katsuyu already, and she was 30 y/o.


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## Mithos (Apr 29, 2017)

Charmed said:


> And still she wasn't even hurt by that Susano Punch, like at all, she tanked it like a Pro, while Tsunade was, iirc, spitting blood on her knees and stabbed by like, 2 Susy Swords or so...



Mei was about to get skewered (i.e., killed) before Gaara intervened. Tsunade did not require a teammate to save her.



> Yes Tsunade can go offensive too, why not? but the thing is Mei has been an offensive ninja all her life with 2 K.G, while Tsunade had trouble handling the likes of Chiyo even when she had Katsuyu already, and she was 30 y/o.



Are you just making stuff up as you go along? Chiyo was never stated as giving Tsunade trouble in battle. We don't know if they ever even clashed directly. We do know, however, that Tsunade made a fool of Chiyo during the Great War [x].


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## Charmed (Apr 29, 2017)

Mithos said:


> Mei was about to get skewered (i.e., killed) before Gaara intervened. Tsunade did not require a teammate to save her.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you just making stuff up as you go along? Chiyo was never stated as giving Tsunade trouble in battle. We don't know if they ever even clashed directly. We do know, however, that Tsunade made a fool of Chiyo during the Great War [x].



Wrong, before that, Mei was just doing fine, while Tsunade wasn't, you do know Tsunade was stabbed more times before any Kage, actually she was the only stabbed kage, and she's alive due to her regeneration.
So sorry buddy, she was the worse out of the 5 when dealing against the 5 Susano.

Yeah we don't know they ever fought, still, this means Tsunade kinda spent the entire war in a room healing injured ninja and stuff.
Also, Chiyo means that Tsunade countering her Poisons with antidotes was embarrasing, which if I was a PuppetMaster would be embarrasing but this doesn't mean Chiyo is weaker than Tsunade. This only means that Tsunade is a great Medical Ninja.


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## Mithos (Apr 30, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Wrong, before that, Mei was just doing fine, while Tsunade wasn't, you do know Tsunade was stabbed more times before any Kage, actually she was the only stabbed kage, and she's alive due to her regeneration.
> So sorry buddy, she was the worse out of the 5 when dealing against the 5 Susano.



Regeneration is part of her abilities -- using it doesn't count against her, just as it doesn't count against Orochimaru either. It doesn't matter if she would have died without it, because it's her own power. She was the only Kage (except Onoki) who we saw make any progress against the clones. She actually brought a clone down to the ground, and didn't need to be saved by a teammate; therefore, she did better than Mei, who did the worst.



> Yeah we don't know they ever fought, still, this means Tsunade kinda spent the entire war in a room healing injured ninja and stuff.
> Also, Chiyo means that Tsunade countering her Poisons with antidotes was embarrasing, which if I was a PuppetMaster would be embarrasing but this doesn't mean Chiyo is weaker than Tsunade. This only means that Tsunade is a great Medical Ninja.



No, it only means that _we don't know_. We have no idea if they ever clashed on the battlefield, and if they did, we don't know the conditions (i.e., where, how, who else was there).

Konoha's victory in that war was attributed largely to Tsunade [x]. And we know that she participated in battles and went out into the field (not spent the war in a room healing) because (a) she fought against Hanzo alongside Jiraiya and Orochimaru; (b) she has one the highest amount of completed missions according to the DB; (c) she was with Dan in the field when he died [x]; (d) it was said that when the Sannin fought together their power increased thrice-fold (again, alluding to her fighting alongside her teammates); and (e) she was known as the Slug Princess, a moniker she could only have had if Katsuyu (and thus Tsunade as well) had been present on the battlefield.

Tsunade is the best medical ninja, but she is _also_ a very strong combatant. In fact, she was known as the world's strongest woman [x], which would put her above Mei and Chiyo. 

Your notions about Tsunade's strength and combat prowess are simply contradicted by the manga.


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## Charmed (Apr 30, 2017)

Mithos said:


> Regeneration is part of her abilities -- using it doesn't count against her, just as it doesn't count against Orochimaru either. It doesn't matter if she would have died without it, because it's her own power. She was the only Kage (except Onoki) who we saw make any progress against the clones. She actually brought a clone down to the ground, and didn't need to be saved by a teammate; therefore, she did better than Mei, who did the worst.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice try Mithos,


It's obvious those scans mean Tsunade has huge skills as a medical ninja not as a warrior, and that they won the war because of her skills as a Medic, which nobody has been able to surpass her.

She was known as the strongest woman by who? Shikamaru's dad? and did he ever met Chiyo, Mei or Konan?
He could probably mean strong  in the sense of "raw force" which is absolutly true.

Mei was doing just fine, a little dirty, but she wasn't stabbed n.n/


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## I Blue I (Apr 30, 2017)

Mei was brought to the battlefield to counter Madara's fire techniques, but she failed to do that two out of three times. Mei was also about to be killed by her set of Susano'o clones and had to be saved by Gaara. And that clearly wasn't the first time she had been hit, either. Her clothes and hair are already fucked up by the time she gets punched. Mei goes on to give up and be visibly afraid of Madara. She obviously had the worst performance of the five kage and I don't think it's up for debate.

Meanwhile, Tsunade restored Gaara, Onoki, and Mei's chakra reserves throughout the fight. The kages weren't able to overwhelm Madara until Tsunade went on the offensive. Tsunade didn't need to be saved against her clones. She reacted the quickest and deflected Madara's flame dragon bullets, while Mei was too slow to weave handsigns in time. She survived being cut in half and managed to heal the others. Who was more impressive between Tsunade and Mei, I wonder?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Beyonce (Apr 30, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Wrong, before that, Mei was just doing fine, while Tsunade wasn't, you do know Tsunade was stabbed more times before any Kage, actually she was the only stabbed kage, and she's alive due to her regeneration.
> So sorry buddy, she was the worse out of the 5 when dealing against the 5 Susano.



Mei couldn't even handle her Susanoo clones. She had to be saved by Gaara. You're talking as if Mei could survive being stabbed by Susanoo. She can't. Everything Mei has in her arsenal is inferior to Tsunade as she can just regenerate. Mei had without a doubt the worst performance out of the 5 Kage (Having the lowest morale, not being able to counter Madara's fire in time, needed to be saved by Gaara.) Anyone who says otherwise clearly hates Tsunade.




Ryuzaki said:


> I have in numerous threads—I'll mention my summary here.
> 
> Against Kakuzu: Gian bisects her, gg.
> Against Konan: Paper Ocean gg.
> Against Jiraiya:


For the most part I agree with your post, however:

Gian was dodged by Shikamaru. Tsunade has no trouble here.

Paper Ocean requires massive prep. Unless battle conditions state otherwise, she doesn't have that kind of time.

Although I agree Jiraiya wins, you make it seem like it's a stomp. Jiraiya will need to go into Sage Mode to defeat her, it's ludicrous if you think Base Jiraiya negs Tsunade when she can tank a majority of his techniques. (unless he immediately uses frog song, then I concede)


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 30, 2017)

> How did the forums not alert me to that post?
> 
> Did you copy paste it then put it in quotes or...?


Yes.

@FlamingRain



> Tsunade wasn't even at that, so...


What are you talking about? Kabuto was at 80% movement, it would be idiotic for him to exchange in close combat with her further. All it takes is a grazing of the finger and he's dead. Why the fuck would he enter CQC against that ridiculous offense when he cannot even control 20% of his body.

That's like taking Lebron James, and making him into current Paul Pierce (-20% overall bodily ability as a human being), and expecting him to still defend Curry.



> We literally see him running in the opposite direction prior to that, so no. Kabuto was further than Tsunade's arms and legs would reach, meaning she wouldn't have been throwing strikes up until that point. Such is evidenced by the lack of craters in the wide open background of the grassy waves prairie.


There was several craters, she attempted punching Kabuto & Orohimaru numerous times before Kabuto even began his offensive exchange.. how the fuck do you think Tsunade got fatigued to begin with?

She likely attempted striking him at least a dozen times to no avail whatsoever, not even producing a scratch on Kabuto. Unless you're implying Tsunade gets fatigued in under 12 strike attempts... which would make her one of the least fit shinobi in the history of the entire manga.

I'd have no objection if you conclude Tsunade can be fatigued in 5 strike attempts. That would mean she's exceptinoally outlcassed by Kabuto.



> Out of shape, out of practice, and almost out of breath* are the reasons* Kabuto was able to compete with her; he didn't even get close to her before that point. Reasons, not excuses.


Out of breath was the scenario created by Kabuto. If he couldn't avoid her attacks she would have killed him before she became fatigued.

Out of shape, out of practice is irrelevant.

This is *Rusty Tsunade *we're debating. I have not, ONCE, implied in shape, in practice Tsunade wouldn't neg diff THE FUCK out of Part 1 Kabuto.



> Troyse simply referred to Tsunade, not rusty Tsunade as a separate character. If you're implying that the in-shape versions of Tsunade would have been too much for Kabuto to compete with there's not much to talk about.


And you claimed Kabuto did not outclass her "in that fight"

In that fight Kabuto outclassed the fuck out of Tsunade. It wasn't really a fight in all honesty, he was toying with her the entire fight, avoiding her attacks over an indefinite period while unarmed.



> I think the fact that even speedy characters such as Kakashi have issues capitalizing on five second intervals suggests that Kishimoto doesn't believe Genin can do that.


It's apparent you have no idea what you're talking about.

A blinded arrogant man who believes his opponent is indefinitely paralyzed, with torn thigh, arm and chest muscles can't be surprised attacked by a shinobi who moves several times the speed of sound?



> It's relevant because that's a matter of direct movement speed from point A to B, which isn't what Troyse brought up and isn't what I was talking about. Even part 1 Kakashi wasn't able to simply chase Kabuto down like that, or he probably would have done it when they met at the hospital.


You don't seem to understand the statement I brought up.

That Kabuto outclassed her in that fight.

Let's review:
-Avoided a dozen+ of her attacks while unarmed, not even grazed by her finger which would've killed him
-Tagged her multiple times in CQC, her supposed speciality, even after he claims he's unskilled in taijutsu
-Does this without even being grazed by her finger or heels which would've killed him

Sum..... Computing...

=

Tsunade got outclased by Kabuto in that fight.



> The entire point of the tactic was to go towards overcoming the fact that Kabuto could not otherwise compete with Tsunade up close.


That is irrelevant. Her attacks were avoided over a prolonged period by an unarmed Kabuto, he then tagged her numerous times after that.

It doesn't matter if he avoided her for 24 hours then did what he did.

She was outclassed in combat. Kabuto gave her the Mayweather treatment.



> Kabuto said he wasn't much for Taijutsu- i.e.- he didn't prefer it/it wasn't his forte- it doesn't mean he wasn't skilled at it at all. He spent _most_ of the encounter _avoiding engaging Tsunade in Taijutsu to begin with_, up until he ingested the Hyorogan.


I believe we're going in circles.

What Kabuto claimed beforehand, during, or after the battle is irrelevant.

What is relevant is what both characters achieved in combat.

And what was acheived is Tsunade was clearly outclassed against Kabuto.



> She said it outright, she didn't merely imply it.


That's great, her statement doesn't apply to every shinobi who learned how to use medical ninjutsu.

That is the highest reach you've made up to this point.



> For a lot of Tsunade's career it was her job to engage in that same deadly combat because she didn't become a medical specialist until _after_ the war had already started. As someone else mentioned earlier, becoming the medical specialist would have made her a prime target for other cells of ninja, so considering she and other medical ninja did not have Sozo Saisei to rely on they would have to be pretty evasive as even medical specialists cannot heal injuries to vital organs with their standard lot of techniques.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I won't entertain any of this nonsense.

Tsunade was never once implied by anyone to be exceptionally evasive, her features (mortally wounded 4 times and killed two times by Madara) make her the least evasive of the Gokage which includes a long range speciialist in Mei, and she developed a technique/mode to ensure whenever she was hit that she could practically ignore it and continue fighting - implying her evasion skills weren't anything special to begin with as she deliberately developed a technique that essentially throws all evasion tactics into the trashcan.

When you come, you should come prepared, don't spew nonsense bullshit like Tsunade is evasive because she's a medical shinobi, and then try to then stretch that onto Kabuto because he knows medical ninjutsu.

Provide features that prove her competency as it pertains to evasion - in combat. Once you do that, then you can try to weave the web of bullshit that might convince me that Kabuto, who never even met Tsunade up to the point of fighting her, is somehow exceptionally evasive as well as a result of knowing how to use mystical palm technique.

It's going to be hard, because in my mind, Tsunade claiming medical shinobi *should* be *evasive* does not equal out to Kabuto, a medical shinobi, being *exceptionally* *evasive*.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 30, 2017)

Veracity said:


> •Pure conjecture. Being compared to someone =\= having the exact same attributes. AAA was compared to AAAA in speed despite the blatant speed differences. Point is, AAAA doesn't have the durability to survive CES because he's less durable than RC. So he's gets killed quite frankly.
> • LMAO what? V2 flicker is his fastest speed step and he can't get anymore durable than that. So no.
> •  Been over this many times. Madara's Sussano regenerated Tsuande's first blow and Mei's water dragon( it's literally shown) and Ay's tiny crack that he put in the back of the Sussano wouldn't have weakens the durability of the front. And if you think so, that's null and void because Tsuande hit Madara with well more than enough power to obliterate the structure on her own because Madara flew into a giant crater and Sussano users can have their structure obliterated and take no damage at all. So her kick was extraordinary.


The comparison is enough to establish this point since he survived the transportation technique without any injuries same as his father did. If he was inferior in any sense of the word, it would have been shown as some bruises or cuts and obviously that wasn't the case.



Veracity said:


> Naw because Ay needed to be saved unlike Tsuande and Tsunades fighting style works around taking hits to land them. She was shown landing hits while Ay wasn't so why are you taking points away from her when that's how she fights? Wolverine is almost like a punching bag every time he fights but it's effective and it's what makes him powerful right?


Tsuande's style allows her to be careless and doesn't require much tact to deal with her, whereas Ay required much more effort to put down, (i.e. Susano'o + Genjutsu). Thereby establishing a much greater degree of difficulty.



Veracity said:


> Yeah the Gokage created the opening for Tsuande to land that blow but it doesn't mean they helped crack the RC.


Shearing forces.



Veracity said:


> Zero evidence that Itachi used Yata to block Kirin. Why the hell would he activate full powered up Sussano and reflect Kirin and then depower the whole thing right after? Doesn't make sense.


I guess you guys want to overlook his sicknes. Sure, go right ahead.



Veracity said:


> Tsuande obviously thought Katsuyu was helpful to fight Oro, so again.... 50% summoning rate. And that was 2 vs 1 in her favor.


Because they had their summons on the field and she wanted Naruto to covered.



Veracity said:


> Yes I did. Tsuande lasting longer than Mei against the Sussano clones even without defense from Katsuyu = Tsuande being a fighter. Mei is a fighter and she's literally a Kage. So Tsuande clearly is a fighter.


She outlasted Mei due to her regeneration not her offensive skill/prowess.



Veracity said:


> Of course Tsuande's not revered for her fighting ability. Not only did she not have SS or Byakago( think about the fact that she's used Byakago once in battle and SS twice. Not quite enough to work up the battle hype right) but being the greatest medical ninja alive> being a mid Kage level fighter. If Mei or Kakashi were the greatest medical ninja alive, it would outshadow their fighting abilities easily.
> 
> Not really. What portrayal was really founded? Nobody founded her fighting portrayal on SS because she only used it once and perhaps her greatest combat asset( Byakago) made its debut against Madara lol. That was the point. Tsuande wasn't the best of fighters before( although she was great enough to scare Jirayia and Oro) because she only had taijustu and CES. With Byakago and SS, she's a Gokage Level fighter.


But this isn't about Mei or Kakashi, this is about Tsunade. It's different when you are known for something and how you are capable of doing other things. No one here will argue that Tsunade's taijutsu sucks or is inconsequential, but for the purposes of her hype her medical prowess takes center stage. What you are trying to do would be the equivalent of if I decided to say Kakashi is one of the best genjutsu users in the manga. We all have seen what Kakashi can do, he and Obito duked it out in genjutsu, but he's not known for that. He's known mostly for his sharingan and raiton element. Can he do other stuff? Sure. 



Veracity said:


> That might be one of the most ridiculous statements you've made today. Tsuande wasn't surviving because of healing. She was surviving because of regeneration. Which is literally what she said was the reason as to why she could fight Madara head on. You can't take that away from Tsuande, that's how she fights. Byakago is the reason she's Gokage Level, so of course she was going to use that shit.


You're wrong, she's kage-level without Byakugo/SS. Katsuyu, in general makes her kage level and this is what plays into her hype even more. Think about this for second, after Pain wasted everyone, if Tsunade was able to get Katsuyu to Kakashi sooner and healed him to perfect 100%, the outcome would definitely be different. Her abilities as a support shinobi are far greater and channeling her chakra through Katsuyu to heal everyone would be a game-changer in wars. SS/Byakugo are great jutsu but she reached a kage-level status without those techniques.



Veracity said:


> She's a front line fighter like *Ay, Gaara*, and Mei. That was made clear in the Madara fight and that's even without Katsuyu.


Not remotely as capable as those 3 on offense or defense, she's much less of a fighter than those 3. Ay would be the epitome of a front-line fighter the same can be said for Gaara or Mei, as these characters had no qualms about engaging Sasuke outright. Tsunade is more of a support shinobi, come to think of it, her best feat was when she was supporting Oonoki and they took out the 25 Susano'os. Coincidentally, that also happens to be the best Gokage combination feat.



Veracity said:


> Do you really expect me to take those bold points seriously? That rough and vague outline of why *YOU* think the Akatsuki wins and that's suppose to be proof? That's about as much proof as me saying that Tsuande beats Itachi because CES GG. You really said Konan wins via paper ocean and that suigestu beats her via drowning, and thought I was gonna take that seriously lol.


I'm not sure what you outlined in bold? Because nothing was bolded lol?

You're not defeating Itachi with just taijutsu, that's why she loses. She can drag out the fight but Itachi will likely seal her with Totsuka. 

How is she going to beat Suigetsu? He could legitimately keep her head in his body and drown her over and over again until she is exhausted. His body gives him the ability to absorb any contact from her. 

As for Paper Ocean, this is no different than Deidara with a continuous C1/C2 barrage, she'll likely be blown to pieces before she can properly regenerate. It'll likely overcome her regeneration speed in those minutes and she'll lose due to that.


Mithos said:


> Tsunade did not require a teammate to save her.


That does not invalidate what he said though, just because she doesn't require a teammate doesn't necessarily serve as a testament of her offensive prowess, again that wholly hinges on her healing/regenerative abilities. It has served her well, not going to take that away from her, but you cannot make an overarching generalization that one character is automatically better because he or she didn't require help without paying attention to the context. Cockroaches are said to be able to survive a nuclear holocaust, does that automatically make them better than a black mamba?


Beyonce said:


> Gian was dodged by Shikamaru. Tsunade has no trouble here.
> 
> Paper Ocean requires massive prep. Unless battle conditions state otherwise, she doesn't have that kind of time.
> 
> Although I agree Jiraiya wins, you make it seem like it's a stomp. Jiraiya will need to go into Sage Mode to defeat her, it's ludicrous if you think Base Jiraiya negs Tsunade when she can tank a majority of his techniques. (unless he immediately uses frog song, then I concede)


Yeah, I wouldn't have put too much stock in Gian but I don't remember Shikamaru dodging it, I remember Kakashi jumping in front and cancelling he jutsu out. Yeah, but to be fair to these Tsunade fans, if they want to use an acid spitting slug army, I'm going to go with the most hax jutsu anyone has displayed and use that as my counter.

Also, about Jiraiya, you're joking right?

Jiraiya will use his hair technique to entrap her from all angles, spread her legs and then :mahobama


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## FlamingRain (Apr 30, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes.
> 
> @FlamingRain



Oh.



> What are you talking about?



I mean that the Tsunade Kabuto fought wasn't at 100%. Considering that she was out of practice, out of shape, already breathing fast, and had her rectus femoris split, she was moving at less than 80% at the time. The fact that Kabuto even at 80% resorted to the phobia implies that ultimately he wasn't a match for her.



> This is *Rusty Tsunade *we're debating. I have not, ONCE, implied in shape, in practice Tsunade wouldn't neg diff THE FUCK out of Part 1 Kabuto.



If we agree here I don't care as much about the rest of the debate (though I still disagree with a lot of what you said), because it seemed like Troyse was using Kabuto to degrade Tsunade period.


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## Veracity (Apr 30, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> The comparison is enough to establish this point since he survived the transportation technique without any injuries same as his father did. If he was inferior in any sense of the word, it would have been shown as some bruises or cuts and obviously that wasn't the case.
> 
> 
> Tsuande's style allows her to be careless and doesn't require much tact to deal with her, whereas Ay required much more effort to put down, (i.e. Susano'o + Genjutsu). Thereby establishing a much greater degree of difficulty.
> ...



This is 12 days late? Should that even warrant a response?


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## Ryuzaki (May 1, 2017)

Veracity said:


> This is 12 days late? Should that even warrant a response?


Hang on, let me check if there's an expiration date on your post.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Veracity (May 1, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Hang on, let me check if there's an expiration date on your post.


Lol ight I'll get to it


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## Veracity (May 3, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> The comparison is enough to establish this point since he survived the transportation technique without any injuries same as his father did. If he was inferior in any sense of the word, it would have been shown as some bruises or cuts and obviously that wasn't the case.
> 
> 
> Tsuande's style allows her to be careless and doesn't require much tact to deal with her, whereas Ay required much more effort to put down, (i.e. Susano'o + Genjutsu). Thereby establishing a much greater degree of difficulty.
> ...



Yeah no it's not, that isn't exactly how comparisons are drawn. AAA and AAAA were compared in speed despite the latter possessing far greater speed. Same concept here. Ay coming out with no injuries just means the technique wasn't strong enough to injure either of them. Superman would also come out of said technique with no injuries but that doesn't his durability can seriously be compared to Ay's. Facts are, the 4th Raikage's durability feats are blatantly inferior to his fathers. He was stabbed deep by chidori while his father survived FRS. His cloak also gets knocked off from Lariats and he can cut clean through his own flesh with Raiton chops. He is not as durable as V1 Sussano therefore he dies if Tsuande punches him. It's quite simple. And even if he is as durable as RC, his organs are exploding on contact and he's dying regardless. He would have to be far more durable than RC to have any chance of surviving and he is not.


A much greater degree of difficulty? Are you ignoring the fact that said " greater degree of difficulty" would have maimed Ay? He cannot survive damage like Tsunade can. Tsuande sustaining damage isn't necessarily a bad thing because she can afford too. None of the other Kage can though. Also if Tsuande's regeneration allows her to be careless( by your own admission) then why do you keep on pointing out the injuries she sustained? Clearly that was a factor of her being careless on purpose to land blows which also is the reason she chooses to use Byakago in a battle anyway.


Shearing forces? We know Mei didn't help crack the Sussano at all because Madara regenerated the damage 100% before Tsunade kicked so she's out of the equation. Ay and Onoki didn't help either because they only managed to place a tiny crack in the back side of Sussano which wouldn't weaken the integrity of the front in the same way cracking the back of an egg doesn't weaken the front. They were there to stop Sussano so Tsuande could land the attack cleanly and if you're completely stuck on the idea of them doing some damage then I've accounted for that. Remember that Itachi's Sussano was eradicated by Kirin yet his regular body took zero damage. Tsuande eradicated RC enough that Madara's real body was pushed into a massive crater damaging his own body. That would make up for the minute damage that Ay/Onoki did.


Itachi's sickness matters why? I referenced Itachi to show that Sussano can be eradicated and the user inside remain completely unfazed. The fact that Itachi was sick and was perfectly fine after having Kirin obliterate his Sussano actually reinforces my claim.


She summoned Katsuyu before the others and Shizune could have dealt with Naruto herself. Moreover after summoning the creature, Tsuande stood on top of it and used its offensive technique. Whether or not you like it, Katsuyu was used offensively there.


Byakago = Tsunade's fighting ability. It's literally the only reason she even said that she was going to step on the front lines, so taking it away from her is unfair; it's like Raikage without RnY or Onoki without Jinton. You account for her regeneration when she's fighting in the BD therefore it clearly should be taken into account as to why she outlasted Mei.


You kind of just avoided the argument there. Tsuande can be a Jirayia Level fighter and she would still get more praise for her Medical ninjutsu. Why is that? Because she's the greatest at it. Jirayia isn't the greatest fighter in the manga but Tsuande damn sure is the greatest medical shinobi. Give Jirayia, Tsuande's medical prowess and it clearly would overshadow his fighting ability. Itachi is a great ass fighter but most of his hype comes from genjustu because thats what he's best at. Even though he's still a solid Kage Level shinobi even without genjustu; Amaterasu and Sussano. 


Uhhh that's because Tsuande can't simultaneously heal the whole village and fight at the same time. She had to chose one. Clearly healing the village was smarter than losing to Pain.


But Byakago/SS are what make Tsuande a Gokage Level fighter. Byakago allows for vitalization of the body, sealess regeneration, and chakra boosting Katsuyu. Take those away and Tsuande drops considerably.


You can make a case for Gaara and Ay being superior to Tsuande fighting wise but Mei doesn't make any sort of sense. You might have forgotten, but Mei was inches away from dying if not for Gaara saving her while Tsuande( although sloppy) managed to separate the Sussano clones and was healing through Byakago. She was alive with no outside interference while Mei would have been dead. This was also all without Katsuyu. Even if you don't think the Slug was going to offensively been effective it would have atleast supplied great defense to Tsunade. Tsuande just happens to be great at fighting and support.


I just meant all the bullet points, I have no idea why I said bold lol.



Yeah Itachi beats Tsuande no questions ask. 


Tsuande has Raiton/lighting based techinques and can summon Katsuyu whenever she's entrapped in water. She'll be fine against the Jonin. Do you think Base Gai, Base Ay or Base Bee would lose to suigestu?


Except paper ocean needs to be prepped. She would beat a lot of shinobi if she came with the techinque prepped including Izanagi restricted Obito. Sooo?


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 4, 2017)

If a one-armed Ei had to block a hit from a Susano'o clone, it's because he apparently wasn't in a position where he could dodge. 

Granted, Ei _does_ sometimes tank attacks, but he does so with purpose. He allowed his arm to be chopped off so that he could continue fighting and he allowed himself to be smothered in Amaterasu flames so that he could kill Sasuke. Trying to catch a giant muscular Susano'o's sword doesn't have a whole lot of ulterior purpose behind it, unless it was his only way of defending himself in that scenario.

In that case, the fact that Tsunade was able to jump into the air and knock a clone to the ground is even more impressive.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (May 4, 2017)

That's just an instance that can't be a measure of who did better. The Gokage weren't blocking and hitting at the same time and that panel shows Ei blocking and Tsunade hitting one.

That doesn't mean Tsunade was jumping and hitting and Ei wasn't dodging. Tsunade was hit far more times than Ei. And actually, fell before him. Battlewise Ei did better as it wasn't a lack of skill that took him out. It was just worrying about Tsunade.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Jad (May 4, 2017)

If Tsunade's only way of fighting is to take damage to issue it (incl. using a life taking jutsu) then it doesn't really make her case of being a skilled Taijutsu user with awesome evasive skills all that great. Her only means of fighting is through brawling, and if her means of fighting is to take massive amounts of punishment than its really telling how lacking her other skills are; evasion, ninjutsu of other styles, Taijutsu, speed, evasion.

THAT'S if we assume she purposely even fights that way. Which seems wildly wasteful and dangerously in useful.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 5, 2017)

Ei is faster than Tsunade, that is a fact. That said, people sometimes try and argue that the Susano'o clones were slow. That can't be the case if one of them forced Ei into blocking.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Yoko (May 6, 2017)

Alternatively, adding to what @LostSelf already said.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Ei is faster than Tsunade, that is a fact. That said, people sometimes try and argue that the Susano'o clones were slow. That can't be the case if one of them forced Ei into blocking.



You can't really paint a clear-cut scenario like that when the events leading up to that happened off panel, with numerous possibilities.  Raikage could've dodged a Katon (or two, or three, or four) and was eventually forced to block - that's less him being outsped and more him being pressured and caught.  See Kakashi getting caught by Kakuzu - he's faster, but consistently dodging elementals pressured him and eventually got him captured.

We also don't know if they fought the same way against the other Kage - I know it's an assumption, which is the point I'm making here -  we literally don't know.  Obviously subjective, but there seems to be a consensus on the general level of the Kage.  If these things were fighting so fiercely and swiftly, why was Mei still alive (even before Gaara saved her)? Was she stopping multiple almighty Susano'o with Suitons? Or was it just Madara doing just enough to play around and pressure her?

It really all boils down to Madara not really trying, IMO - he was bored, sitting on a rock with his cheek resting on his hand.  He was deploying the clones enough to pressure them to their max and perhaps kill them if they got too sloppy, but I still don't see those clones fighting at anywhere near maximum of what you'd expect.  I mean, the Susano'o clones literally stood there and watched as Tsunade pulled two swords out of her gut and cough up blood.  You'd think they'd take that opportunity to, you know . . . do something other than stand there.

Way too many variables in play.


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## Bringer (May 6, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> That can also mean she was abusing being hit from the very start, imo. If these clones were forcing Ei to block, who's faster and possibly wasn't holding back his speed against them, how was Tsunade avoiding them?



If she was being a pin cushion from the start of the fight, Ei wouldn't have commented. Him commenting and using the word getting suggests her getting stabbed was a recent development.

Ei blocking instead of outright dodging could have a been a recent development too. Remember, it was day time when Madara created the clones, and when we go back to the fight it was night time. They were fighting the clones for hours. 






LostSelf said:


> Even though i do agree she might've avoided some, but that's because the Susano'os where toying with each Kage on their own. IMO they could've killed them save Onoki yet, they didn't.
> 
> That's shown when Madara comments he wants to break their will. This also answers the "She would die exhausting herself before receiving a lethal wound like headshot" because there's a panel after Tsunade collapses that shows Mei, Gaara and Tsunade surrounded, the three of them with their willpower broken and unable to fight or even stand up properly even when Onoki reinvigorates them, as they stand up shaking.
> 
> ...



I guess that depends what you mean by "holding back". Remember what prompted Madara creating all the clones. Madara swapped out his body for a clone, his clone got sealed, and Tsunade called him out on using a clone because he was worried. Madara didn't deny the claim, and simply responded with "It is 5 on 1 after all".  He was worried, it wasn't like the part 1 bell test between Kakashi and team 7.

Anyway, when I hear Madara was holding back, I don't think

1. He was purposely missing with attacks
2. He was swinging his sword slower than he could

He nearly killed Mei and Ei during that chapter.

To me, Madara holding back means... not pulling out Perfect Susanoo and low diffing. Remember, what did Madara do after saying he was going to respond back with full power? Did he pull out V3 and swing his V3 Susanoo sword faster than his clones did, or stop purposely missing?

Or did he pull out Perfect Susanoo.



Yoko said:


> We also don't know if they fought the same way against the other Kage - I know it's an assumption, which is the point I'm making here -  we literally don't know.  Obviously subjective, but there seems to be a consensus on the general level of the Kage.  If these things were fighting so fiercely and swiftly, why was Mei still alive (even before Gaara saved her)? Was she stopping multiple almighty Susano'o with Suitons? Or was it just Madara doing just enough to play around and pressure her?



Remember, Madara created the clones day time, and when we come back to the fight it was night time.

Maybe Mei used hidden mist to stay alive? Maybe she used boil release(this probably happened because the Susanoo fist that punched her was melting). Maybe she used giant suitons to push back Susanoo's.

And then, after hours of that, she was low on chakra and thus couldn't spam ninjutsu freely. She couldn't keep up her hidden mist, she couldn't spam suitons, etc.


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## FlamingRain (May 6, 2017)

Consensus doesn't mean anything much of anything. It may well be that the Kage in question are intended to be stronger than most people consider them because of lasting so long against the Susano'o as opposed to the Susano'o only being so good because of which Kage they were fighting.

Tsunade's clones were moving when she pulled those swords out, btw. The panel where she pulls them out shows them climbing back over the upheaved parts of the field and they're closer next time we see them. Pauses between attacks are normal, though, so it doesn't signal that they weren't trying.

If Madara was already going for kills by the time we switched back to the Kage and he had already stated Tsunade would be first, then it follows naturally that Madara was trying to kill Tsunade and simply hadn't managed it through the clones, using at least what we saw them using (which includes multi-pronged attacks). It's that simple.

If Madara weren't even trying he wouldn't have been ticked that Ohnoki managed to stop Susano'o, would he?



Yoko said:


> Raikage could've dodged a Katon (or two, or three, or four) and was eventually forced to block - that's less him being outsped and more him being pressured and caught.



They still need to be fast enough to do that, though. If the Susano'o moved in slow motion it wouldn't matter, and they could have done the same to Tsunade. We know they were launching multi-pronged attacks because we saw them do it three times and there were two blades Tsunade had to pull out at once.

GT didn't say they outsped Ay, simply that they were quick enough to apply that pressure. That's between each of them. If they are, it doesn't make sense to fault Tsunade for being hit when she has to get close to them to deal damage and they each have a huge reach advantage over her. If she had tried to evade all their attacks she would find few chances to actually get in there and hit them compared to if she took the strike and kept going.


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## LostSelf (May 6, 2017)

BringerOfChaos said:


> If she was being a pin cushion from the start of the fight, Ei wouldn't have commented. Him commenting and using the word getting suggests her getting stabbed was a recent development.
> 
> Ei blocking instead of outright dodging could have a been a recent development too. Remember, it was day time when Madara created the clones, and when we go back to the fight it was night time. They were fighting the clones for hours.



Why, though? What we can get from Ei is that she was getting sloppy because even with Byakugo, the hits she was receiving where taking a toll on her. 

The only reason Ei commented it now was because that, she wasn't sloppy before. Byakugo was healing her fine and her resiliency was helping her. But with time, the pain, damage and hits starts to take the best of her, wich is why Ei mentions that and she collapses.

That's the context of Ei's words IMO. Her fighting style (Abusing Byakugo) was helping her at first but was not going to last forever. And her tiredness and sloppy showings just proves that. Doesn't mean she was evasive at first, imo.



BringerOfChaos said:


> I guess that depends what you mean by "holding back". Remember what prompted Madara creating all the clones. Madara swapped out his body for a clone, his clone got sealed, and Tsunade called him out on using a clone because he was worried. Madara didn't deny the claim, and simply responded with "It is 5 on 1 after all". He was worried, it wasn't like the part 1 bell test between Kakashi and team 7.
> 
> Anyway, when I hear Madara was holding back, I don't think
> 
> ...



I don't think Madara was worried, though, because he could always pull PS, like you said. However, i agree he was forced into a feint situation because of their combined effort.

Madara using the Susano'o clones also can mean a sarcastic answer to the Gokage, who where cocky saying "Don't blame us, you're Madara Uchiha after all". Madara replied the same thing to them, forcing them to fight 5 vs 1 and even gave them the option of using Susano'o or not (Even though he in the end went with Susano'o. Maybe because the Gokage didn't say "Oh no, go easy on us".)

I'm also not saying he was swinging his sword slower. However, he spared Tsunade, Gaara and Mei once. It's possible he spared them off panel as well.


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## LostSelf (May 6, 2017)

Yoko said:


> It really all boils down to Madara not really trying, IMO - he was bored, sitting on a rock with his cheek resting on his hand. He was deploying the clones enough to pressure them to their max and perhaps kill them if they got too sloppy, but I still don't see those clones fighting at anywhere near maximum of what you'd expect.



This is what i always say. The clones weren't fighting Gaara the same way they fought Tsunade, for example. Madara was having fun. With overwhelming force indeed, but having fun and especifically said he wanted to break their will and being able to kill three, didn't.


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## Bringer (May 6, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Why, though? What we can get from Ei is that she was getting sloppy because even with Byakugo, the hits she was receiving where taking a toll on her.
> 
> The only reason Ei commented it now was because that, she wasn't sloppy before. Byakugo was healing her fine and her resiliency was helping her. But with time, the pain, damage and hits starts to take the best of her, wich is why Ei mentions that and she collapses.
> 
> That's the context of Ei's words IMO. Her fighting style (Abusing Byakugo) was helping her at first but was not going to last forever. And her tiredness and sloppy showings just proves that. Doesn't mean she was evasive at first, imo.



I'm not sure where you get that context from.

It can't be that context because Tsunade didn't cough out blood and momentarily collapse until after Ei's words, not before. Furthermore, he says her fighting is getting sloppy, not her regeneration. The fact that he tells her this after hours of fighting Susanoo clones implies that her getting stabbed is a recent development in the fight. Her response then implies she's purposely getting stabbed. Ei then tells her she may not die, but fighting like that would only tire her out.






LostSelf said:


> I don't think Madara was worried, though, because he could always pull PS, like you said. However, i agree he was forced into a feint situation because of their combined effort.
> 
> Madara using the Susano'o clones also can mean a sarcastic answer to the Gokage, who where cocky saying "Don't blame us, you're Madara Uchiha after all". Madara replied the same thing to them, forcing them to fight 5 vs 1 and even gave them the option of using Susano'o or not (Even though he in the end went with Susano'o. Maybe because the Gokage didn't say "Oh no, go easy on us".)
> 
> I'm also not saying he was swinging his sword slower. However, he spared Tsunade, Gaara and Mei once. It's possible he spared them off panel as well.



I guess this is a agree to disagree thing, but I feel like Madara's facial expression after Tsunade called him out begs to differ. He looked ticked because what Tsunade said had truth to it.

Plus, why would Kishi have Tsunade make that comment if it wasn't true?

He didn't spare anyone. Mei was punched, and was going to fly into a Susanoo sword before Gaara saved her. Then a bunch of Susanoo's gangbanged Gaara's sand shield and Gaara was knocked away to Mei. Then we switched to Tsunade.

The Susanoo's Tsunade were fighting were getting off of the ground or far away when she collapsed.

Both Ei and Mei nearly died this chapter. I'm not sure what your definition of spare is. He never had the opportunity to kill Gaara, and all of the Susanoo's fighting Tsunade were either a fair distance away or picking themselves off of the ground when she collapsed.

And you admit that Madara's susanoo's weren't swinging their swords slower or purposely missing, so I don't see your point here.




LostSelf said:


> This is what i always say. The clones weren't fighting Gaara the same way they fought Tsunade, for example. Madara was having fun. With overwhelming force indeed, but having fun and especifically said he wanted to break their will and being able to kill three, didn't.



They couldn't fight Gaara the same way they fought Tsunade, because Gaara fights differently than Tsunade. Gaara has auto sand defense, and can fly on a cloud of sand. Tsunade is a close range specialist. Apples and oranges.


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## Yoko (May 6, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> If Madara weren't even trying he wouldn't have been ticked that Ohnoki managed to stop Susano'o, would he?



Being cocky and getting taken off guard has happened numerous times.  Madara didn't have to be giving it his all to be annoyed that he underestimated an enemy that outperformed clones that weren't giving it their all.



> Tsunade's clones were moving when she pulled those swords out, btw. The panel where she pulls them out shows them climbing back over the upheaved parts of the field and they're closer next time we see them.



and long enough for *Onoki to save the Raikage and give a pep talk*.  It is a really, really tough sell that "serious mindset, totally trying to kill them ASAP" Susano'o clones standing a couple meters away and were moving the whole time and still couldn't reach her while she was incapacitated.



> They still need to be fast enough to do that, though. If the Susano'o moved in slow motion it wouldn't matter, and they could have done the same to Tsunade. We know they were launching multi-pronged attacks because we saw them do it three times and there were two blades Tsunade had to pull out at once.



We don't know if they were fighting every Kage the same way.  I mean, Raikage taking a split second to yell out at Tsunade got him Genjutsu'd - Tsunade literally pulled two swords out of her, coughed up blood and dropped to her knees and faced no consequences.  Multi-pronged attacks don't matter if they aren't capitalized on (which they weren't in Tsunade's case, IMO).



LostSelf said:


> This is what i always say. The clones weren't fighting Gaara the same way they fought Tsunade, for example. Madara was having fun. With overwhelming force indeed, but having fun and especifically said he wanted to break their will and being able to kill three, didn't.



It's always the issue I had with trying to quantify something that not only happened off panel but had several moving pieces as well.  If there were less variables involved, it'd be easier to draw a conclusion people agree on (at least on some general level).


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## LostSelf (May 6, 2017)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I'm not sure where you get that context from.
> 
> It can't be that context because Tsunade didn't cough out blood and momentarily collapse until after Ei's words, not before. Furthermore, he says her fighting is getting sloppy, not her regeneration. The fact that he tells her this after hours of fighting Susanoo clones implies that her getting stabbed is a recent development in the fight. Her response then implies she's purposely getting stabbed. Ei then tells her she may not die, but fighting like that would only tire her out.



She didn't cough blood and collapsed because she still had the blades inside her body. When she pulled them out, she couldn't take it no longer.

I don't see it too deep or with a hidden meaning, though. Ei said she would die if she kept fighting that way and nothing more. I don't see how this implies she was fighting differently. Just that she would die if she kept the case. We would be missing the point going too deep, especially with something off panel.  We don't know how many times she got stabbed because it was off panel. She could've been doing this for a long time (Wich is what Ei says), unless you mean Tsunade can only take two Susano'o stabs with Byakugo before collapsing, When Ei told her she might not die? He said she will die if she keeps fighting like that. She says she's betting her life. She then collapses, Ei is freaked out and is put in genjutsu. 



BringerOfChaos said:


> I guess this is a agree to disagree thing, but I feel like Madara's facial expression after Tsunade called him out begs to differ. He looked ticked because what Tsunade said had truth to it.
> 
> Plus, why would Kishi have Tsunade make that comment if it wasn't true?
> 
> ...



I didn't say it wasn't true. Outside of PS, Madara couldn't counter it any other way. I agreed with that.

He spared them.
Edit: (See Yoko's post above) I don't know why the hell i can't add links or images here. It's chapter 588, page 10. O

Tsunade, Mei and Gaara are unable to fight with will broken and unable to stand up properly. Their set of clones are surrounding them and not attacking.That's an opportunity of killing them. The clones also weren't in the floor. By the time Tsunade collapsed, they were standing in front of her. Look at the panel above and considering Tsunade was near Ei, the Susano'o clones in the middle are the ones surrounding Tsunade and that little dot between them is Tsunade on her knees.

The sets of clones, clones capable of overwhelming the Raikage, in front of them, allowed them to stand up and gather together and didn't attack either.

That's sparing their lives.



BringerOfChaos said:


> They couldn't fight Gaara the same way they fought Tsunade, because Gaara fights differently than Tsunade. Gaara has auto sand defense, and can fly on a cloud of sand. Tsunade is a close range specialist. Apples and oranges.



This wasn't what i'm refering to.


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## Yoko (May 6, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Edit: I don't know why the hell i can't add links or images here. It's chapter 588, page 10.




The page is linked in my post.  I think it is  Manga Panda issue.  I tried another site and it was fine.


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## LostSelf (May 6, 2017)

Yoko said:


> The page is linked in my post.  I think it is  Manga Panda issue.  I tried another site and it was fine.



I thoguht it was my Mozilla because i tried with two webs. I mean, of the two links in your post, only the second one works for me. I will try with Chrome and see. But i will edit for now so @BringerOfChaos can see the page there and read your argument also, since you explained it way better than me, too.


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## Veracity (May 6, 2017)

Lol. So the Sussano clones were going easy against everyone except for Ay and Onoki? Is that what y'all really think. That's complete BS.


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## FlamingRain (May 6, 2017)

Yoko said:


> Being cocky and getting taken off guard has happened numerous times.



It's nothing to get mad about in that case, though.



> It is a really, really tough sell that "serious mindset, totally trying to kill them ASAP" Susano'o clones standing a couple meters away and were moving the whole time and still couldn't reach her while she was incapacitated.



I said pauses between attacks are normal, based on literally every fighter's IC behavior. They don't have to be desperate to do it every second of the way, _something_ had to happen during that time, and assuming the stance that they were making concerted efforts to do it is simply more reasonable than the alternative imo.

I'm sure the Kage could have stood up as soon as they willed. Ohnoki just boosted morale, he didn't heal them or anything.



> We don't know if they were fighting every Kage the same way.  I mean, Raikage taking a split second to yell out at Tsunade got him Genjutsu'd - Tsunade literally pulled two swords out of her, coughed up blood and dropped to her knees and faced no consequences.  Multi-pronged attacks don't matter if they aren't capitalized on (which they weren't in Tsunade's case, IMO).



Get hit by one and sent flying into another, focus on one and get blindsided by three, block one and get hit by another while pinned. The multi-pronged attacks _are_ them capitalizing, the way I see it.

Raikage's clones were all close to him, Tsunade's were spread out (one was on the ground, another was over a rock, and another even further from Tsunade) until a few seconds after the blades had been removed (she should have been patched up again at that point). Like I said before, since Ohnoki didn't actually heal the Kage I'm pretty sure they could have stood up when they needed to.


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## Yoko (May 6, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> It's nothing to get mad about in that case, though.



He ruined Madara's fun.



> I said pauses between attacks are normal, based on literally every fighter's IC behavior.



I feel like we're drifting away from the point here.

The original point I quoted against was that Raikage being pressured by Madara should imply the other Kage were in similar circumstances and that there is no reason to assume Madara wasn't consistently combating them in the same way.

We then see a split second of distraction for the Raikage costing him the battle, whereas Tsunade is granted a "breather" interval that was several time longer than the Raikage's split second distraction without being attacked during that time.

To me, this implies Madara was doing whatever he felt like in that battle.  Just because he did what he did to the Raikage doesn't mean he was doing it to everyone else.  Just because he Genjutsu'd the Raikage doesn't mean he was actively trying to Genjutsu the other Kage as well.



> Raikage's clones were all close to him, Tsunade's were spread out (one was on the ground, another was over a rock, and another even further from Tsunade) until a few seconds after the blades had been removed (she should have been patched up again at that point).



Tsunade's clones were in arm's reach and would have had no trouble closing that distance and attack her while she was down, if we go by Susano'os historical showings (even in clone form).



> Like I said before, since Ohnoki didn't actually heal the Kage I'm pretty sure they could have stood up when they needed to.



We don't know this.  Tsunade was bleeding and dropped to her knees after pulling out the swords.  For all we know, she needed that breather and the Raikage's quote to her before he got caught implied this.


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## Android (May 6, 2017)

Congrats @HandfullofNaruto 

Manga ended 3 years ago and the forums are far less active than b4, yet you were able to create a thread that lasted for 5 pages, that's 7-8 pages if we go by the forums's old system.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (May 6, 2017)

Yoko said:


> He ruined Madara's fun.



Which involved one of the Kage dying.



> I feel like we're drifting away from the point here.



Perhaps. Sorry 'bout that if so.



> The original point I quoted against was that Raikage being pressured by Madara should imply the other Kage were in similar circumstances and that there is no reason to assume Madara wasn't consistently combating them in the same way.



Meaning they consistently operated at that level of attack speed? In which case being hit isn't some sort of anti-feat given the reach and number advantage.

I didn't say he tried to Genjutsu the others, mainly because three of them are ranged fighters and Tsunade was knocking her set of clones around. What I'm saying is that we can reasonably expect that Madara had the clones go for kills using at least what they were seen using (Susano'o Taijutsu).



> Tsunade's clones were in arm's reach...



Not when she first went to her knee. They got closer after that, and I mean she probably could have gotten up at _that_ point.



> We don't know this.  Tsunade was bleeding and dropped to her knees after pulling out the swords.  For all we know, she needed that breather and the Raikage's quote to her before he got caught implied this.



Raikage's quote was specifically about stamina, and Tsunade had enough of it left for mega-ultra-Jinton. With Jinton being so costly a Jutsu that Ohnoki ran out of the Chakra to use it in a state where he was still capable of multiple fair sized Doton and lightening a _meteor_. I think she would have been fine for a good while longer.


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## Bringer (May 6, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> She didn't cough blood and collapsed because she still had the blades inside her body. When she pulled them out, she couldn't take it no longer.




Why would it be any better with the blades inside her body? That's literally worse for her. And again, Raikage's comment came before she collapsed, not after. How can her collapsing be the reason of Ei's comment if it happened after Ei's comment? 





LostSelf said:


> I don't see it too deep or with a hidden meaning, though. Ei said she would die if she kept fighting that way and nothing more. I don't see how this implies she was fighting differently. Just that she would die if she kept the case. We would be missing the point going too deep, especially with something off panel.  We don't know how many times she got stabbed because it was off panel. She could've been doing this for a long time (Wich is what Ei says), unless you mean Tsunade can only take two Susano'o stabs with Byakugo before collapsing, When Ei told her she might not die? He said she will die if she keeps fighting like that. She says she's betting her life. She then collapses, Ei is freaked out and is put in genjutsu.



I don't think I'm reading into it too much. Again, here are the facts.

It was day time when Madara made the clones, and night time when we returned to the Gokage fight.
This means hours passed since Madara sent out his clones.
During the last few minutes of the fight, Ei tells Tsunade that her taijutsu is getting sloppy.
Tsunade says she's putting her life on the line during this fight.

If Tsunade was doing the same thing the entire fight, why would Ei comment on it now out of all times? That's the point I feel like you're missing here. I feel like from Ei's comment, and her reply about putting her life on the line, that Tsunade started _purposely _getting stabbed to create more openings for herself towards the end of the fight, not throughout the fight. She wasn't getting stabbed and regenerating for hours. It was probably towards the last 10-20 minutes of the fight she started doing that, which would warrant Ei's remark. 






LostSelf said:


> I didn't say it wasn't true. Outside of PS, Madara couldn't counter it any other way. I agreed with that.
> 
> He spared them.
> Edit: (See Yoko's post above) I don't know why the hell i can't add links or images here. It's chapter 588, page 10. O
> ...



Yes, and when Tsunade first collapsed the Susanoo clones were either on the ground or a decent distance away from her. It was pages later where they all stood up and surrounded her. 

As shown pages later, as soon as Onoki started speaking all the kages got up just fine and jumped towards him. They weren't down for the count. One far away shot of Madara narrating and low quality Susanoo's doesn't mean the Susanoo's were waiting patiently for the kage's get to up. 


FlamingRain said:


> Not when she first went to her knee. They got closer after that, and I mean she probably could have gotten up at _that_ point.



Knowing Tsunade, she could have been playing possum again


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## HandfullofNaruto (May 6, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Congrats @HandfullofNaruto
> 
> Manga ended 3 years ago and the forums are far less active than b4, yet you were able to create a thread that lasted for 5 pages, that's 7-8 pages if we go by the forums's old system.


I'm honored but I couldn't have got here if it wasn't for the inconsistency of Senju Tsunade's power level .. so the true congrats goes to all the members of the NBD!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (May 6, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I'm honored but I couldn't have got here if it wasn't for the inconsistency of Senju Tsunade's power level .. so the true congrats goes to all the members of the NBD!



Nobody recognized my thread for lasting like 12 pages (Troyse22 addressed everything regarding Kisame)

I guess GT just doesn't like me though

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (May 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Nobody recognized my thread for lasting like 12 pages (Troyse22 addressed everything regarding Kisame)
> 
> I guess GT just doesn't like me though


sorry bro the congrats has been given and received, better luck next time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 6, 2017)

Yoko said:


> Alternatively, adding to what @LostSelf already said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Clone Thing always seemed to me to be a simple way to present all 5 kage with an identical challenge which they would answer in their own ways.  

Which fits as far as what I could see, but people are always going to interpret within the framework of their prior understanding of the narrative and characters, and I can't prove that Madara didn't individually adjust the levels of each Susano to exactly match the level of each individual kage anymore than I can prove my own interpretation, except for saying it doesn't make as much sense to me as what I thought.  To which not-me can reply that it makes more sense that way to them, and then we can both point at intangibles and what made up our prior interpretation of events and go around in circles until we spiral away from the original point.  So I don't think about it or talk about it anymore.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Yoko (May 6, 2017)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> To which not-me can reply that it makes more sense that way to them, and then we can both point at intangibles and what made up our prior interpretation of events and go around in circles until we spiral away from the original point.  So I don't think about it or talk about it anymore.



You kind of summarize my issue with this whole debate right here - it is intangible.

I wholly disagree with debaters not only trying to materialize the aforementioned intangible but also quantify it and then apply transitional logic to something we did not see happen (and may not even have happened the way we thought it did).  It leaves _way_ too much wiggle room for creative interpretations (which, as this thread has clearly proven, will wildly vary based on who you are talking to).  It's why I try to stick with what I see on panel.

That's not to say I am 100% against all intangibles - for example, I am okay with using this scenario for arguments about Tsunade's longevity.  Not only does her stamina have a proven track record in the past but there are also no implications she consumed soldier pills off panel.  It is intangible, but not in the same way - there aren't as many moving pieces or leaps to make to reach that conclusion.  There is basis to make that assumption - it does not have a weak foundation.

However, when we get into things like (paraphrasing) "she has proficient Genjutsu defense because clearly Madara must have tried it on her if he tried it on Raikage" or "she must be fast because five Susano'o clones & because he pressured Raikage," that is where I draw my personal line.  There are way too many variables in those instances to try and quantify them.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Jad (May 6, 2017)

I could just as easily say A blocked the Sasuno blade in order to have some breathing room to direct his concern to Tsunade. He could have blocked the attack to disable the blade from the Sasuno to use against them, or throw away. He could have blocked simply to conserve chakra rather performing a full blown dodge ala Ameratsu.

On the other hand Tsunade has no way of fighting other than being too slow to dodge attacks or a taking them on, knowing full well she may die anyways. Both are negatives to her verses the other Kage's fighting abilities not taking fatal like damage and attacking except Mei (rookie).


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## Hi no Ishi (May 6, 2017)

Tsunade while rusty and "in a fallen state"  was able to not get killed or captured against Kabuto and Orochimaru, two dudes who are pretty much terrifying to most jounin levels.
If Kishimoto says that she teaches evasion to her students then he means she's good at evasion.
If he shows her doing combos with the Raikage and has Madara (or Asspulldara as he is so lovingly known apparently) compare the two of them then I have to assume that those two are pretty comparable and the main differences between them or what stated, he's faster she's stronger. 
Did Kishimoto tell us that her and RaikagA can survive Mabui's transfer technique a thing that was stated to kill regular people? Yes.
If he spends a bunch of time and panels showing me two people being similar in power then by golly I'll take the hint. 
So in terms of battle power it goes
1. Rudolph the one shot reindeer 
2. A(nger Management)
3. Slug Princess Tsunade 
4.Young Gezy
5. Terumii Mei 
Who would be the best cago to have around in the event some random shit like pains assault occurs to you? Definitely Tsunade.
 Who would be the best person to have on the battlefield alongside you? Depends on whether you want to go home or not.
 Put it down to a one-on-one and I'll take onoki over almost everybody in the manga but Tsunade is still the strongest kunoichi and a force to be reckoned with.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 7, 2017)

Yoko, while I do certainly understand where you're coming from, I would also argue that in the BD the purpose of hypothetical discussions is to discuss scenarios that have never happened. At the end of the day, we're all using creative license and taking liberties with how match-ups would go, you included, and who you talk to of course depends on the reasoned outcome.

I don't think this is any different. We have more than enough evidence to show that Tsunade had been fighting the Susano'o clones in close combat off panel. Ei said her taijutsu style was getting sloppy - meaning she had been engaging them up close for some time. The sword through her stomach also suggests that the clones had retaliated.

Ei's only form of high-level combat is using taijutsu. And the clones we saw on-panel were both using taijutsu on him - in fact, they were using taijutsu on all the Gokage, even Mei, who is a mid-long ranged fighter. I should add, the Moku Bunshin all appeared around the Gokage in close combat right before they assumed their Susano'o clad armour. And then even after the 25 Susano'o clones ganged together to take down the Gokage, they seemed to be trying to close the distance and attack them up close. Finally, there's the fact that most Susano'o rely on taijutsu (Madara's Perfect Susano'o, Itachi's Totsuka Blade, Sasuke's Susano'o Arrows etc.) as their primary form of combat, and tend to only use other attacks (Genjutsu, ranged ninjutsu) as supplements.

Sure, there is a possibility that Madara used a lot of Katons to keep Ei on the defensive, although doesn't that seem unlikely, considering every other clone had been using taijutsu, and they had all started at close range and intended on staying there? I suppose it is feasible that Madara had been using Katons, but over and over again, to the point that Ei was overwhelmed and couldn't evade a follow up strike from a _slow_ clone? That doesn't sit right with me. In any case, for the Susano'o clones to have forced Ei into blocking at all would required some degree of speed, Katon or not.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 8, 2017)

Yoko said:


> You kind of summarize my issue with this whole debate right here - it is intangible.
> 
> I wholly disagree with debaters not only trying to materialize the aforementioned intangible but also quantify it and then apply transitional logic to something we did not see happen (and may not even have happened the way we thought it did).  It leaves _way_ too much wiggle room for creative interpretations (which, as this thread has clearly proven, will wildly vary based on who you are talking to).  It's why I try to stick with what I see on panel.
> 
> ...



I cared a lot about what happened on panel, and what it tells me about what's important to the author.  If you want to argue that Madara definitely used genjutsu... no, we don't know that.  What we do know is that genjutsu resistance, speed, whatever, clearly they didn't matter enough to the outcome for him to bother mentioning it or showing it to us in this scenario, for whatever reason.  I don't know what those reasons are, I don't know what happened, and there are infinite possibilities as to why that is the case.  I just know that when Tsunade fell over, it was because she over-used her technique, and that was the game-breaker he took time to write and draw, and he made Ei tell us Tsunade wasn't spamming Byako healing the entire time for whatever amount of time that could be.  I can't surmise anything beyond that.  
Now.  

There's a giant flaw in my reading method.  I don't know if I trust Kishimoto enough to show me things that matter.  I don't know if I can even trust him to include all the things he thought should matter.  When his story ended, he was asked about Sasuke's journey and what happened to everyone, and he said something to the effect of, "he's on a journey to discover lots of important world changing things and solve great mysteries about Kaguya and where she came from and their threat, and everyone went on life changing journey inside my head.  But I don't feel like drawing that so, here's Boruto using a lazily drawn rasengan in front of some ugly children."

So, you know, Kishimoto doesn't feel like showing us stuff like how the Gokage fought the robits, or how Tsunade punched Madara, just that somehow they did and she did, and it was really really important that he cut away from the fight to have Choza and Dan tell us how awesome Tsunade was, and the Senju were, and how super cool it was that she was last Senju and the last living Sannin because that's really far more important than the battle all the way up until the part where she punches him.  How do I translate that into a Battledome thread?

Tsunade vs Kisame.  Kisame starts by drawing Samehada, and gets into a battle stance.  Each opens up with-
-Tsunade is the last Senju, who were a very great clan that rivaled and even surpassed the Uchiha.  She was the only Sannin who survived the entire series and was never killed or sealed away, and she was Hokage and has the will of fire inherited from Hashirama and Hiruzen, The God of Shinobi.-  
-Kisame can't fight without 90% of his body, Tsunade wins.

So you read this and tell me, "Pow, you started off with a good premise like it was going to be interesting, and then you skipped over all the details and interactions, wasted my time telling me unimportant and irrelevant stuff I already knew and didn't care about, and jumped to an abrupt and unsatisfying conclusion that made me wonder why I even bothered reading it.  It just leaves me angry and frustrated with the post and you for writing it."  To which I reply, "Is that not analogous to the experiences had reading a chapter of Naruto?"

The intangibles I care about are more along the lines of what makes a good story and a good universe and fit in line with that.  If you want to argue intangibles that mean anything about combating genjutsu, I want to hear things like how Tsunade is the last Senju, trained after the best Senju of all time, and the Senju evolved alongside the Uchiha to combat each other, when the Uchiha were big on eyeball genjutsu.  I want to hear things about clans like the Hozoki's, and the Yuuhi's, who had awesome genjutsu were universally rated below the Uchihas in their own specialties, and remind me that the Senju bested that.  If you want to talk about taijutsu, and how to classify their mastery, want to hear about how the only taijutsu rated more highly than either clan's were the 8th gate techniques, and the Hyuuga style's gentle fist, and use examples and draw parallels between the fighting styles of Hashirama, Tobirama, and maybe Hiruzen, against the showings of Sasuke, Itachi, Obito, and Madara.  I want to hear why families like the Raikagenaughts, the Ootosuki, the Mist Swordsmen, and whoever else was famed for their taijutsu were considered worse than the aforementioned clans in taijutsu, despite neither the Senju nor the Uchiha using a circular style like the Hyuuga or their sister clan, or dances so fluid and advanced that Lee could never hope to match their movements in a lifetime, like the Ootosuki.  

Those interpretations go into the world building and developmental processes of Narutoland, and touch on intangibles that are mildy interesting to read about and think over, because they take stratified things we know, and ask about why they're structured the way they are, and maybe that brings up good points better authors can explore in superior to canon fanfiction.  It brings up questions like, "How bad is linearity in taijutsu?  How much does style matter?  Where are examples of skill overcoming style, and vice-versa?  How much skill does it take to overcome a style gap?  Does this apply to Guy as well as Lee?  Why was this only mentioned in regards to Lee and his opponents, anyway?  Does it only matter when stated, as in with him it is a special case?  If so, should we apply this to other fighters?  What about Kakashi's spinning backfist, or Naruto's brawling, or Shikamaru's kicks, or Choji's head on sumo?  What about Jiroubu's named shoulder tackle?  Is it better because it has a name?" 

The really great posters mentioned in the all-time greatest threads engaged with the manga as a living narrative in that way.  PDQ, Akito, Thunder, Suu, Winchester, and Esponer, to name a few, noticed those patterns and statements and asked really good questions about intangibles that established a lot of the memorable and influential discussions that carried between generations of posters.  You, yourself, did this with the databooks, and it's what made your posts interesting to read, and it's what got you so many mentions.  (personally, I thought it was the Roy Mustang avatar myself)  Even when Kishi gave a lot of these notions the nod or the finger, they persisted because they were interesting and insightful, and some of their theories even had the blessing of being neither confirmed nor denied before the series ended, which is probably the best case scenario if you still want to care about it.  So if you want to talk about intangibles, build me a beautiful proposition, filled with logic and reason and quotations and sources with such tiny leaps woven so delicately and deliberately I want to believe it's true.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 8, 2017)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I cared a lot about what happened on panel, and what it tells me about what's important to the author.  If you want to argue that Madara definitely used genjutsu... no, we don't know that.  What we do know is that genjutsu resistance, speed, whatever, clearly they didn't matter enough to the outcome for him to bother mentioning it or showing it to us in this scenario, for whatever reason.  I don't know what those reasons are, I don't know what happened, and there are infinite possibilities as to why that is the case.  I just know that when Tsunade fell over, it was because she over-used her technique, and that was the game-breaker he took time to write and draw, and he made Ei tell us Tsunade wasn't spamming Byako healing the entire time for whatever amount of time that could be.  I can't surmise anything beyond that.
> Now.
> 
> There's a giant flaw in my reading method.  I don't know if I trust Kishimoto enough to show me things that matter.  I don't know if I can even trust him to include all the things he thought should matter.  When his story ended, he was asked about Sasuke's journey and what happened to everyone, and he said something to the effect of, "he's on a journey to discover lots of important world changing things and solve great mysteries about Kaguya and where she came from and their threat, and everyone went on life changing journey inside my head.  But I don't feel like drawing that so, here's Boruto using a lazily drawn rasengan in front of some ugly children."
> ...



We shall name this magnificent speech "Intangibles".

Reactions: Creative 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Yoko (May 8, 2017)

It really all boils down to this very simple belief I have - I am 100% against drawing a very specific conclusion (not you in this thread, but what I've seen other posters do and I know you've seen it as well given your tenure here) based on a very ambiguous scenario, which only gets more ambiguous when you account for the questionable mindset of one of the combatants (regarding the Madara vs. Kage battle).

And don't worry; I get where you're going with this - walking away with a "macro" (big picture) bullet point and then deriving where Tsunade stands / what Kishimoto is trying to tell us based on that macro point rather than delving into specifics.  That is fine for a Library discussion, but I don't see a place for it here - it cannot be countered without equally ambiguous assumptions, and the argument then devolves into an already hypothetical battle between two characters, but instead of applying established feats (thus keeping the discussion relatively grounded) in this hypothetical fight, we're using hypothetical feats in a hypothetical fight, further removing ourselves from the primary source as we increasingly rely on wildly varying interpretations of something we didn't actually see.

My usage of the databook is not intangible - I almost always only refer to statistics, hard numbers that can be compared to one another.  There are no "ifs and buts" with stats - they are a cold number, and we only run into problems when we have reason to believe they are outdated (which we can then provide reasoning for why we'd think that) or if a character is capped in a stat (Tsunade's 5 in strength vs. Guy's 5 are not the same).  I may have cited entries a few times, but I don't put weight on them anywhere near the same level I do on stats.  Stats are quantitative and comparable - descriptions that often devolve into hyperbolic fluff are not, which is why I avoid them (unless they are a clear, non-hype bloated description of how a jutsu works).

For example - you know I am a Kakashi fan, as do most people here.  Yet, even as a fan, I don't go around using his mastered DB4 elemental wheel (which you know is rare in the DB, as only a handful of characters had that honor - most of which were "god tier") in combination with his 1000 jutsu hype to make leaps and give him access to elementals he hasn't shown.  My Battledome version of Kakashi cannot use Katon and Futon competently - I won't arbitrarily assign him jutsu based on that.  For all I know, his mastery of Katon and Futon could be barely enough to leave a mark on that elemental litmus test leaf, let alone actually matter in a fight - thus not applicable here.  I can't prove he can use Danzo level Futon or Itachi level Katons, or even copy Katon / Futon jutsu on that level.  For a Library discussion? It'd be a different talk entirely.

*EDIT: * All that being said, while I wholly disagree with you (and you've seen my posts long enough to know the extent to which I disagree), I still respect your opinion and can present it without being nasty or insulting my intelligence.


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## Jad (May 8, 2017)

Yoko said:


> It really all boils down to this very simple belief I have - I am 100% against drawing a very specific conclusion (not you in this thread, but what I've seen other posters do and I know you've seen it as well given your tenure here) based on a very ambiguous scenario, which only gets more ambiguous when you account for the questionable mindset of one of the combatants (regarding the Madara vs. Kage battle).
> 
> And don't worry; I get where you're going with this - walking away with a "macro" (big picture) bullet point and then deriving where Tsunade stands / what Kishimoto is trying to tell us based on that macro point rather than delving into specifics.  That is fine for a Library discussion, but I don't see a place for it here - it cannot be countered without equally ambiguous assumptions, and the argument then devolves into an already hypothetical battle between two characters, but instead of applying established feats (thus keeping the discussion relatively grounded) in this hypothetical fight, we're using hypothetical feats in a hypothetical fight, further removing ourselves from the primary source as we increasingly rely on wildly varying interpretations of something we didn't actually see.
> 
> ...


You'd be surprised how many Tsunade fans have Tsunade being able to use lightning style to the point of disabling Deidara's bombs (etc). Gai has lightning style, but I would never say he can use it in battle.


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## Yoko (May 8, 2017)

That's my issue with that type of debating style - where exactly do you draw the line? Is there a line to begin with? Portrayal is a very subjective thing and if you like a character, the way you see them portrayed and the leaps you would be willing to make will undoubtedly be vastly different from another person's.  It ultimately results in characters that are even more imaginary than the already fictional world they reside in (i.e. borderline fan-fiction).

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (May 9, 2017)

Turrin said that the fighters listed with elements have the ability to actually use them in battle iirc.


The thing about the data book statistics is that many of the stats are dynamic in practice and can't be adequately explained with a single number.

Take the Ninjutsu statistic for example- what is that about? Is it about the array of Jutsu a fighter possesses, Chakra control, or the general battle acumen of the fighter? How does someone with such an impressive display as Kisame only score a 4.5 compared to Hidan who scored a maximal 5? Why do other fighters with S-Rank Jutsu like Naruto not have maximal scores? Chances are Kishi would care about more than one of those aspects, but that single number can't explain which aspects are what compared to others. We don't know if it was averaged out or if Kishi picked one of them and skipped factoring in the others.

Similar questions arise with Taijutsu and Genjutsu. They could theoretically mean different things for different characters. How do named or multi-hit techniques compare to "regular" punches and kicks or wielding of weapons, how important is know-how compared to style, are style differences even considered considering someone like Hiashi managed to only score a 4.5 in the first databook? How are abilities like unlocking gates considered? How do area of effect spells get rated compared to ones that focus on specific targets, better or worse? Or does it depend on it being so effective on so many people compared to being so effective on one person. How much does the the ability to simply recognize and/or break said spells matter?

What about strength? Does striking vs lifting/grappling strength make a difference? When it comes to the speed statistic is the 3.5 Kiba scored talking about his running speed or the speed at which he can spin or both? Why does CE Sasuke have CE Lee speed when they don't have the same speed score? (I have an answer to this, but still, the question can be raised...)

All of those scores could mean different things for different characters, and can be affected by other factors from the other statistics. There's nothing absolute about any of the statistics. You're still guesstimating, or should be, to some degree or another.

That isn't necessarily a case for throwing them out altogether, though.

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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 22, 2017)

^


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## Stonaem (Sep 22, 2017)

Need I say anything?

Well, since this is the one character whose standing is most ironic, I cannot help

On one side, her best qualities (leadership, strategy, support) are often ignored even in situations where they shine. Hence I have found myself arguing for her in such cases.
On the other side, her secondary abilities (ninjutsu, taijutsu, direct combat) are often overrated and she is placed on a pedestal when she doesn't belong there for said categories. Hence I have also found myself arguing against her.
Quite ironic because she is overrated in her weak situations and underrated in her strong situations
Of course, both have been done in the same way:
- statements/feats blown out of proportion in order t serve whatever purpose the wanker/hater has in mind.

Therefore the deciding factor for my vote was which side made the most (seemingly, by my understanding) outrageous statement. And the winner is .. . .
Punching the ground gg!
So I vote she is overrated.

But with that said, I rate her as highest mid-kage due to her support abilities.


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