# Itachi vs Gokage [Individually]



## Itachі (Feb 26, 2016)

*Location:* Uchiha Hideout Roof

*Distance:* 25 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Full

Can Itachi defeat the Gokage individually?


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## t0xeus (Feb 26, 2016)

He wins everything.

Onoki pushes him mid diff thanks to experience and Jinton, Ay pushes him to high diff thanks to speed and being able to tank most of Itachi's attacks.

The rest gets low diffed.


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## Crow (Feb 26, 2016)

Ay kills Itachi. He has the speed to avoid Amatseratsu, and he is simply faster than Itachi. He knows not to look in his eyes so he isn't getting caught by any Genjutsu. And Ay can break Susanoo. He wins Mid diff. He can tank most of Itachi's attacks except maybe Magmata beads. But it isn't fast enough to catch him.

Onoki can win if he plays his cards right. Fly and avoid all Itachi's attacks and Amatseratsu, launch a good Jinton and bam there goes the win. I would say Onoki wins High Diff. 

The rest are loosing.


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## ImSerious (Feb 26, 2016)

i think from this distance Onoki can nuke with jinton right off the bat.

the rest die.


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## Crow (Feb 26, 2016)

Ay isn't loosing to Itachi.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 26, 2016)

Onoki and Ay kill Itachi no question.

Sasuke could't even react to Jinton one shot vaping. You can't even make excuses because Sasuke got all of his chakra back from zetsu.


 And Ay would have killed him if it wasn't for Gaara.


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## t0xeus (Feb 26, 2016)

^ What? Sasuke didn't have full knowledge and it was 5m at max, not 25.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 26, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> ^ What? Sasuke didn't have full knowledge and it was 5m at max, not 25.



So what? Sasuke had enough time to summon Manda in like 3 secs when Deidara turned himself into a Several Megaton Nuclear Warhead and he had no intel there either?


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## Crow (Feb 26, 2016)

Itachi isn't going to clear this t0xeus. He can't handle Onoki and Ay


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## t0xeus (Feb 26, 2016)

@Transcendent Shinobi PIS. Obito had to appear and Kishimoto brainlessly thought that was a good opportunity.

Give Sasuke few more meters, knowledge and he dodges no problem w/o CIS or PIS.


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## t0xeus (Feb 26, 2016)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Itachi isn't going to clear this t0xeus. He can't handle Onoki and Ay



Onoki isn't fast enough to dodge Amaterasu imo.

With Ay, I think that Itachi wins, but he gets pushed to V4 Susanoo, but he seals the deal with Totsuka or Yasaka no Magatama (pls no scans of Tsunade tanking the weaker version).


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## ImSerious (Feb 26, 2016)

Well i guess A can win aswell by outlasting Susano.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2016)

They all lack genjutsu defense, and the ability to track his clone feints or sense his surprise attacks post-feint. So they all get murked by illusions and speed. He'd really only need his Mangekyō to finish A, unless he tricked A into cutting his own leg off with tricky genjutsu or used his wind element.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Sasuke could't even react to Jinton one shot vaping.



.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> And Ay would have killed him if it wasn't for Gaara.



A would've lost an arm and a leg. To a dumber Itachi restricted to v1 Susano'o.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 26, 2016)

He can kill all except Oonoki maybe especially if the old guy flies out of his range right away and attacks him with jinton.


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## Icegaze (Feb 26, 2016)

Onoki would be the hardest 

Then A

Then Gaara

Then Mei

Then tsunade 

He beats all without question though


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 26, 2016)

Without a shadow of doubt. 
Onoki and A may push him to mid dif, but I don't think any of them have the capability of pushing Itachi to his limits individually.


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## Icegaze (Feb 26, 2016)

I actually think Gaara might push Itachi harder than A would 

From scans potentially his susanoo can be by passed through sand under his feet . Which is a huge thing 

Amaterasu ain't doing such . He just sheds the armour he currently wearing and calls it a day 

Tskuyomi is the only risk but based on how Gaara fights not the easiest thing to make eye contact 

Think it's actually 

Gaara 

Onoki 

Then A


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## TobiramaSS (Feb 26, 2016)

Beats them all except for Ay and Ohnoki. 
Doubt he can do anything against Ay's speed and Ohnoki's


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## TobiramaSS (Feb 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> They all lack genjutsu defense


Proof? Except for Ay, Madara a prodigy in Genjutsu couldn't do shit to the other four.
Even then Ay himself was surprised that he fell for the Sharingan's genjutsu, suggesting he had some sort of a defense or technique to avoid it.


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## LostSelf (Feb 26, 2016)

Itachi is above anyone of the Gokage. I see him beating them 1 vs 1.


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## Ersa (Feb 26, 2016)

If I need to explain why Gaara, Tsunade and Mei lose to Itachi to you then you might need to consider re-reading the manga. It's a long read my friend especially for one so slow but I digress it is worth it.

The A speed argument is bullshit as instant defences like Susanoo are perfect for surviving his attacks. Not to mention Itachi is considerably faster then Sasuke if you look at both manga feats and Databook scores. He will be pushed but wins via clone feints and genjutsu. Onoki gets clone-feinted and shot out by Amaterasu. Just because he can snipe a zero-stamina wounded MS Sasuke doesn't mean he does the same to Itachi who is both relatively healthy here and not half-dead.

Again I could go into this further but I really don't want to catch whatever you have.


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## ARGUS (Feb 26, 2016)

Itachi is above every single Gokage 1v1. Comfortably 

the toughest to beat would be gaara in a desert mainly because of his anti uchiha arsenal. 
but his defense gets breached by V4 susanoo so a close distance favors itachi heavily. The onyl thing itachi has to look out for is his sand yacking him out of his susanoo

as for the rest: 

 -- Onoki gets one shotted by YM or Amaterasu 
 -- Mei gets one shotted by Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu or Totsuka 
 -- Tsunade gets one shotted by Tsukuyomi or Totsuka 
 -- Ay cant breach any susanoo above ribcage and with crow fients he eventually ends up caught by a sneak totsuka


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## TobiramaSS (Feb 26, 2016)

Ersa said:


> If I need to explain why Gaara, Tsunade and Mei lose to Itachi to you then you might need to consider re-reading the manga. It's a long read my friend especially for one so slow but I digress it is worth it.
> 
> The A speed argument is bullshit as instant defences like Susanoo are perfect for surviving his attacks. Not to mention Itachi is considerably faster then Sasuke if you look at both manga feats and Databook scores. He will be pushed but wins via clone feints and genjutsu. Onoki gets clone-feinted and shot out by Amaterasu. Just because he can snipe a zero-stamina wounded MS Sasuke doesn't mean he does the same to Itachi who is both relatively healthy here and not half-dead.
> 
> Again I could go into this further but I really don't want to catch whatever you have.



Wow seriously a neg rep, man you must be really salty.

Never said Gaara, Tsunade or Mei can beat Itachi, maybe you should read my post before making unfounded accusations, it's just a few posts above yours.

"The A speed argument is bullshit " Sure it's bullshit when it comes to Itachi. Never mind the fact that A broke through Madara's Susanoo before, I mean "Itachi will surely manifest complete Susanoo from the get go right."
You know what's really bullshit though, you Itachi fanboys still using the clone feint argument, cause apparently everyone has the intellect of Naruto so they'll automatically fall for it. The fact that you let Itachi use Ametarasu before Ohnoki can use Jinton really shows the blatant fanboyism in you. 
I could go into this further as well but you know what they say when it comes to arguing with a fanboy.


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## Bonly (Feb 26, 2016)

Itachi would beat all of them in a 1V1 after a good fight


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## ImSerious (Feb 26, 2016)

Ersa said:


> Onoki gets clone-feinted and shot out by Amaterasu. Just because he can snipe a zero-stamina wounded MS Sasuke doesn't mean he does the same to Itachi who is both relatively healthy here and not half-dead.


I don't think sniping is the right word, more like nuking.


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## Ersa (Feb 26, 2016)

The point is post Raikage/Gaara/Mei half-dead zero chakra Sasuke =/= Fresh Itachi


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> Proof? Except for Ay, Madara a prodigy in Genjutsu couldn't do shit to the other four.



Or he just didn't use genjutsu because he's not a genjutsu type that uses it frequently (like Sasuke and Kakashi.)


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## Nikushimi (Feb 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Can Itachi defeat the Gokage individually?



Yes, and it's completely one-sided on all counts.


Mei gets trolled with a basic exchange of Ninjutsu. Itachi can finish her however he likes.

Gaara gets mowed down with Susano'o.

Tsunade gets torched with Amaterasu.

Oonoki gets torched with Amaterasu.

A gets cockblocked by Susano'o, clone feinted with a diversionary attack, and then hit from behind with the Totsuka Blade or Amaterasu.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2016)

He can take 2 of them on simultaneously.


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## TobiramaSS (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Or he just didn't use genjutsu because he's not a genjutsu type that uses it frequently (like Sasuke and Kakashi.)



Or because they are all well trained in genjutsu defenses, as one would expect a Kage to be. 
You would think that if Genjutsu could take out Ay for good, Madara would proceed to the same with the others as well unless... yup I rest my case.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 27, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> Or because they are all well trained in genjutsu defenses, as one would expect a Kage to be.



We've seen plenty of Kage levels lose to genjutsu. They don't have special defenses 'just because Kage.'

They're no more immune to genjutsu than Hidan was. Kakashi and Madara just _didn't_ use genjutsu on them.​


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## RBL (Feb 27, 2016)

make itachi vs gokage at the same time and he still win with low diff.


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## TobiramaSS (Feb 27, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes, and it's completely one-sided on all counts.
> 
> 
> Mei gets trolled with a basic exchange of Ninjutsu. Itachi can finish her however he likes.


You mean when Mei nearly killed Sasuke by melting his Susanoo. 



Nikushimi said:


> Gaara gets mowed down with Susano'o.


Yeah because Gaara won't definitely  like he did before.



Nikushimi said:


> Tsunade gets torched with Amaterasu.


That's assuming she doesn't  first. 



Nikushimi said:


> Oonoki gets torched with Amaterasu.


Assuming Ohnoki  doesn't , you know like he did with Sasuke. Itachi's obviously "stronger" than Madara so I'm sure he'll "survive." 



Nikushimi said:


> A gets cockblocked by Susano'o, clone feinted with a diversionary attack, and then hit from behind with the Totsuka Blade or Amaterasu.


You do know he already  before right, I mean it's almost like you're pulling stuff out of your ass.

The fact that you assume Itachi will always be the first to attack, makes me think you might have accidentally confused Itachi with Minato...


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## TobiramaSS (Feb 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> We've seen plenty of Kage levels lose to genjutsu. They don't have special defenses 'just because Kage.'
> 
> They're no more immune to genjutsu than Hidan was. Kakashi and Madara just _didn't_ use genjutsu on them.​



Ay and Yagura are litterally the only Kage who have fallen prey to the Sharingan's genjutsu, the latter being the weakest of the Mizukage and possibly even all of the Kage.

Also wtf does Hidan have to do with this?


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

Well, Ei may be the one who can theoretically beat Itachi, but that depends on how long can he use V2. If he can use it long enough to tire Itachi out, then he wins. If Itachi doesnt have Koto crow, of course.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> Ay and Yagura are litterally the only Kage who have fallen prey to the Sharingan's genjutsu, the latter being the weakest of the Mizukage and possibly even all of the Kage.
> 
> Also wtf does Hidan have to do with this?



 Deidara, Konan, Bee, Danzo, Orochimaru, and 4th Raikage have all fallen to prey to the Sharingan's genjutsu.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Deidara, Konan, Bee, Danzo, Orochimaru, and 4th Raikage have all fallen to prey to the Sharingan's genjutsu.



But lets be honest - the only genjutsu in Itachi's arsenal V2 Ei can be defeated with is Kotoamatsukami. And even then, that's only if V2 Ei is in his LOS. We saw how fast his Shunshin can be against The Mangekyou Sharingan user, we saw how fast he is.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2016)

Susanoo wouldn't help against Gaara sand attacks he will yank him out of it every time though 

As well as Amaterasu being easily countered 

I think Gaara is being underestimated . he has the best shot at beating itachi


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## fyhb (Feb 27, 2016)

A and Ohnoki have what they need to Mid to High Diff beat Itachi and it can still go either way,the rest just lakc the DMG and the Speed to do anything to Itachi!


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## hbcaptain (Feb 27, 2016)

Gokage members are far inferior to Itachi .

He still bltiz ayone of them mid diff at most .


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Susanoo wouldn't help against Gaara sand attacks he will yank him out of it every time though
> 
> As well as Amaterasu being easily countered
> 
> I think Gaara is being underestimated . he has the best shot at beating itachi



If Gaara is under 10 meters distance from him, Itachi simply oneshots Gaara with Amaterasu. Gaara's sand isnt fast enough to counter it's formation. 

But if he is not so close to him? Then yeah, i agree - Gaara can give him lots of troubles.



> Gokage members are far inferior to Itachi .
> 
> He still bltiz ayone of them mid diff at most .



Yeah, lol. Especially V2 Ei.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2016)

Gaara doesn't need to counter Amaterasu he always has sand armour on 

He simply parts with it 

Amaterasu is a no brainier to Gaara


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## Alex Payne (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachi can beat Gokage one-on-one. But not Gauntlet-style.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 27, 2016)

Is this Itachi vs all or one at a time , because in one on one combat prowess he's above all of them , although Tsunade and Onoki could give him a fight ultimately he will prevail


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## The Third Raikage (Feb 27, 2016)

*Ohnoki and Ay beat him extreme high diff*

*Gaara loses mid diff*

*The other Kage lose low diff*


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Susanoo wouldn't help against Gaara sand attacks he will yank him out of it every time though
> 
> As well as Amaterasu being easily countered
> 
> I think Gaara is being underestimated . he has the best shot at beating itachi



Gaara needs Onoki to lighten his sand to get through Susano'o.
And Gaara doesn't have the luxury of sitting behind an army of fodder and capitalize on oppenings when his opponent isn't aware of his presence.

I'd like to see him do those things to Itachi when Itachi is on top him. 

And lets not forget that Gaara's sand defense alone can't even hold Magatama. Magatama spam might just end him.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Gaara doesn't need to counter Amaterasu he always has sand armour on
> 
> He simply parts with it
> 
> Amaterasu is a no brainier to Gaara



Yeah, that's good counter for Amaterasu i forgot about.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gaara needs Onoki to lighten his sand to get through Susano'o.
> And Gaara doesn't have the luxury of sitting behind an army of fodder and capitalize on oppenings when his opponent isn't aware of his presence.
> 
> I'd like to see him do those things to Itachi when Itachi is on top him.
> ...



Sand is sand, it can go from the ground no problem to take Itachi out. And do not compare Itachi's Yasaka with Madara's. That's a whole different level.


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## Turrin (Feb 27, 2016)

Mei - Mei can counter Genjutsu w/ Demonic Mist and Futton will make it dangerous for Itachi to approach Mei, while he's out gunned at long range due to Mei's Suiton, especially the case due to most of Itachi's range capabilities being Katon. This will be a very tough fight for Itachi, and will mostly depend on whether he could use things like Bushin Feints and his superior intellect to get the drop on Mei or if Izanami is effective. Based on hype and portrayal though I'd give Itachi the edge.

Gaara - This is another very tough fight for Itachi. Gaara's has shown his sand can block Amaterasu and he has Sand to block LOS w/ Suna Tama and Third Eye to avoid Genjutsu. He also can hard counter Susano'o once he's ground out enough sand. And he can use flight to avoid CQC. And I don't think Izanami is going to be effective against Gaara and unlike Mei Gaara is quite astute himself and I don't see him being tricked as easily by Itachi. Leaning heavily towards Gaara here, albeit w/ extremely high diff.

Ei - Ei can evade a-lot of Itachi's moves w/ his speed, but I think he is much more exposed to Itachi taking a strategic approach and outmaneuvering him considering his lack of versatility and having no real feats of strategic prowess. Also he could be in danger from Izanami. I just don't see it as likely that Ei is able to aim dodge until Itachi exhausts himself consistently enough to win this more times than Itachi does.

Tsunade - Tsunade pushes Itachi to extremely high diff w/ Katsuya and Byakugo defense, but falls to Totsuka Sword sealing Katsuya and herself.

Onoki - Onoki can defend Genjutsu w/ Iwabushin and Doton to block LOS. He can also use flight to force the match into Long-Range, where he is a vastly superior combatant to Itachi. Also don't see Izanami working, at least not Post-Stone will recovery, I see Onoki taking this more often than not.


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## Dr. White (Feb 27, 2016)

The only one with a solid chance is Onooki. No one else can beat his arsenal and skill. Ei hs decent shots but he is never getting past Susanoo, and can't dodge genjutsu forever.


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## Turrin (Feb 27, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> The only one with a solid chance is Onooki. No one else can beat his arsenal and skill. Ei hs decent shots but he is never getting past Susanoo, and can't dodge genjutsu forever.


Gaara can as well.


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## Dr. White (Feb 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Gaara can as well.



Not at this location. He gets feinted or genjutsu'd eventually and tagged with MS jutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

When a person debates Mei's chances against Itachi, that tells you two things.
Agenda, or lack of reading comprehension.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 27, 2016)

Treats Orochimaru like trash. Twice. Pushes Killer B. Carries the team vs Nagato. Extreme difficulty against Mei.

One of these things is not like the others.


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## Dr. White (Feb 27, 2016)

She has better chances than Tsunade Imo. She can atleast impede her doom with mist, attempt to mess with Itachi via Fuuton and Lava, and has the suiton arsenal to keep him away (hypothetically), as soon as Itachi knows he is fighting Tsunade, or learns her style through fighting (if no knowledge), you bet your bottom dollar amaterasu is coming out. She has no casting speed, not good enough physical speed, and no jutsu to imepede Ama's wrath


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## Alex Payne (Feb 27, 2016)

I can see Itachi beating Mei without MS. I can't see Itachi beating Tsunade without MS.


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## Turrin (Feb 27, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Not at this location. He gets feinted or genjutsu'd eventually and tagged with MS jutsu.


The location is advantageous to Gaara as it provides areas where he can hide out while grinding sand. And Gaara isn't getting feinted or Genjutsu'd w/ full knowledge, as he can rely on flight or hiding within the hideout while attacking Itachi remotely with his Sand.



Alex Payne said:


> Treats Orochimaru like trash. Twice. Pushes Killer B. Carries the team vs Nagato. Extreme difficulty against Mei.
> 
> One of these things is not like the others.


Yeah one of these things isn't wanking Itachi's D.

You overrating Itachi is not an excuse for overlooking the fact that Mei is well suited to countering Itachi's move-set and that the location favors her.



Alex Payne said:


> I can see Itachi beating Mei without MS. I can't see Itachi beating Tsunade without MS.


He's not beating Tsunade w/o MS when 5 Madara clones who were willing to use MS level techs were failing to do so, even when Tsunade wasn't nearly at her best.

Mei he could stand a chance against under the right conditions, but not in a full knowledge scenario, in an advantageous location to Mei, w/ a 25m starting distance. Everything here is stacked in favor of Mei's fighting style countering Itachi's.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

I actually see a fight between Mei and Itachi going on for a couple pages and then Mei gaining the upperhand and Itachi smirks and Mei realizes she was caught in a genjutsu.
No one would be upset over this when you consider Mei's portrayal. 
Basically replace Oro or Deidara with Mei and it would be perfectly accurate.

She poses 0 challenge for Itachi, going by both feats and portrayal.


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## Dr. White (Feb 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The location is advantageous to Gaara as it provides areas where he can hide out while grinding sand. And Gaara isn't getting feinted or Genjutsu'd w/ full knowledge, as he can rely on flight or hiding within the hideout while attacking Itachi remotely with his Sand.


>Gaara
>Hiding
> From Itachi
Reevaluate that line of thinking..

What is Gaara gonna due to thwart being hit with ephemeral or Shinkarasu?


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## Turrin (Feb 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I actually see a fight between Mei and Itachi going on for a couple pages and then Mei gaining the upperhand and Itachi smirks and Mei realizes she was caught in a genjutsu.
> No one would be upset over this when you consider Mei's portrayal.
> Basically replace Oro or Deidara with Mei and it would be perfectly accurate.
> 
> She poses 0 challenge for Itachi, going by both feats and portrayal.


Mei would need to be less experienced and skillful than Zabuza for this scenario to play out in a full knowledge scenario; as even Zabuza was able to realize that Demonic Mist would prevent Sharingan from casting Genjutsu on him. I absolutely do have a problem w/ that from a portrayal perspective as Mei is suppose to be the Mizukage and therefore figure out the same thing fucking Zabuza did; and fuck she even did employ that same f'ing strategy against Madara.


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## Turrin (Feb 27, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> >Gaara
> >Hiding
> > From Itachi
> Reevaluate that line of thinking..


I have evaluated it and Sharingan isn't Byakugan therefore Gaara should have no problem hidingout  in this location.



> What is Gaara gonna due to thwart being hit with ephemeral or Shinkarasu?


Not look at Itachi's finger since he has full knowledge 

or stay out of the range of Itachi's Genjutsu w/ flight  

or rely on third eye, while blocking LOS w/ Suna Tama 

or hideout while attacking Itachi remotely with his Sand 

or rely on Motion sensing w/ sand if he gets hit by an illusion 

Fuck 3T level illusions (and lower in the case of ephemeral) haven't been relevant to high tiers in like ages anyway and Gaara countered a much better illusion than that in the War Arc (Mizukage's Clam Mirage)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Mei would need to be less experienced and skillful than Zabuza for this scenario to play out in a full knowledge scenario; as even Zabuza was able to realize that Demonic Mist would prevent Sharingan from casting Genjutsu on him. I absolutely do have a problem w/ that from a portrayal perspective as Mei is suppose to be the Mizukage and therefore figure out the same thing fucking Zabuza did; and fuck she even did employ that same f'ing strategy against Madara.



Kakashi didn't have crow genjutsu or finger genjutsu, no one would expect those genjutsu employement methods with the generic knowledge they have on the Uchiha, so they would be just as easily caught off guard as someone without any sharingan knowledge would be caught off guard by 3 tomoe.

Long story short, Itachi would put Mei in the same situation with Deidara or Orochimaru unless she knows every single detail about Itachi and tries to meta game her way out of this, in which case I don't see any problem with someone claiming that Itachi'd just extend totsuka through the mist, if she can perform the seals fast enough, and nail her like nailed Nagato through the dust cloud, as soon as the fight starts and end up 1 paneling her eitherway.


From the manga standpoint, likehood of Itachi one paneling Mei seems more probable than Mei giving Itachi extreme difficulty. 
Because Mei wasn't portrayed as a shinobi of such caliber.
She is actually the weakest of the Kage and likely one of the weaker kage level shinobi introduced so far.

With what we've learned and seen so far, a bottom of the barrel shinobi isn't going to pose a challenge for the Uchiha Prodigy. Not a fucking chance.


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## Dr. White (Feb 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I have evaluated it and Sharingan isn't Byakugan therefore Gaara should have no problem hidingout  in this location.


What makes you think the man who can weave seals and make clones faster than sage sensing and sharingan, and physically shadow Bee via speed is going to have a problem tracking Gaara, the character who is literally the least physically active person in the manga?




> Not look at Itachi's finger since he has full knowledge


Itachi shushins up, and gives his starting gourd sand the CE Sasuke treatment and waves his finger in his face.



> or stay out of the range of Itachi's Genjutsu w/ flight


What makes you think at this distance that Gaara is going to be able to get in the air? You do realize Full goes both ways right?

Itachi still genjutsu Gaara from the air with Karasu Bushins/crows 

With a distraction, Itachi can always just super jump up to him like he did fleeing Bee.



> or rely on third eye, while blocking LOS w/ Suna Tama


Yeah, and when has he shown to be that effective with 3rd Eye sensin that he can just go fucking Kabuto mode 



> or hideout while attacking Itachi remotely with his Sand


Yeah, if Itachi is forced to fight off a stroke for the first 5 minutes of the fight.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gaara needs Onoki to lighten his sand to get through Susano'o.
> And Gaara doesn't have the luxury of sitting behind an army of fodder and capitalize on oppenings when his opponent isn't aware of his presence.
> 
> I'd like to see him do those things to Itachi when Itachi is on top him.
> ...



It's fan fic

The sand needs to be lightened to be fast enough to catch Madara 

It had nothing to do with getting through susanoo 

Gaara used the sand at Madara feet which could not have been lightened as onoki never made contact it with


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## Saru (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Can Itachi defeat the Gokage individually?




Yeah. 

He bodies most of them with relative ease. 

A is going to give him the most trouble because of his superior speed and stamina (A is the worst match up for Itachi here IMO), but Itachi should be able to catch A off guard and tag him with Amaterasu eventually. Onoki is going to give him almost as much trouble because Jinton sort of ignores Susano'o, but Onoki's speed is not an issue, so Susano'o is not going to be needed in the first place. Itachi eventually carves shuriken into his eyes or roasts him with Amaterasu after a Karasu Bunshin feint. The rest of the Kage are going to go down to Totsuka.​


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## Turrin (Feb 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi didn't have crow genjutsu or finger genjutsu, no one would expect those genjutsu employement methods with the generic knowledge they have on the Uchiha, so they would be just as easily caught off guard as someone without any sharingan knowledge would be caught off guard by 3 tomoe.
> 
> Long story short, Itachi would put Mei in the same situation with Deidara or Orochimaru unless she knows every single detail about Itachi and tries to meta game her way out of this, in which case I don't see any problem with someone claiming that Itachi'd just extend totsuka through the mist, if she can perform the seals fast enough, and nail her like nailed Nagato through the dust cloud, as soon as the fight starts and end up 1 paneling her eitherway.
> 
> ...


Again mei has full knowledge here


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> It's fan fic



It is in the manga : They were all on Naruto's side
Therefore its not fanfic.


> The sand needs to be lightened to be fast enough to catch Madara


Madara was stationary, but even if that is the case, doesn't change the fact that Gaara needed his sand lightened to pull off that feat. He is alone here.



> It had nothing to do with getting through susanoo


It had everything to do with it, because as soon as Onoki lightens Gaara's sand, Gaara goes "with this I can..."



> Gaara used the sand at Madara feet which could not have been lightened as onoki never made contact it with


Sand @ Madara's feet alone wouldn't be enough as the amount of sand Gaara used to pull Madara out was much more than that.

Also Onoki mentions that he made the sand around the vicinity also lighter.

So again, without Onoki Gaara can't do what he did against Madara.

Also I like how you deliberately ignored my other points.



Turrin said:


> Again mei has full knowledge here



Full knowledge doesn't grant her the reflexes to avoid Totsuka nor the capability of being able to fight eyes closed.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

Somebody thinks Mei has a chance?

Realy?

Oh come on, she gets negged.


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## Big Mom (Feb 27, 2016)

It is in my honest opinion that each member of the Gokage has the potential to defeat Itachi, and vice versa. 

Ei: Ei proved to be an incredible counter to the Uchiha, with blinding speed, incredible stamina, and the ability to tank like no one has tanked before. His blinding speed provides him with the defense against most of Itachi's deadliest techniques, such as the Sword of Totsuka, Katon style techniques, Yasaka no Magatama, and makes capturing him in a Genjutsu incredibly difficult, since eye contact wouldn't last more than a half-a-second, if at all. His incredible stamina allows him to easily outlast Itachi, especially considering the ladder will have to maintain Susanoo (and armored Susanoo at that, since Ei can shatter Susanoo ribs), which significantly drains Itachi's already low stamina. Ultimately, Ei seems to be a superb counter to Itachi, but Itachi can definitely win this if he lands Amaterasu (don't forget, Ei had to pump chakra into a Shunshin to avoid it, which if Itachi times it perfectly, Ei won't be able to pump enough chakra to avoid it). However, overall, Ei should win 7 out of 10 times.

Onoki: Onoki is also an ideal fighter against Itachi, given his knowledge of fighting Sharingan users and use of long ranged ninjutsu, which not even Susanoo can defend against. Itachi certainly has his means of victory, through Amaterasu, Genjutsu, etc. and the minute Onoki gets within close range, Itachi has this fight locked in. However, Onoki, once again, has knowledge on the capabilities and deadliness of the Uchiha, and thus would more likely play it safe and use his Jinton to destroy Susanoo and Itachi by extension. Furthermore, if it comes down to a battle of stamina and speed, the match should go to Onoki. Despite his old age, Onoki fought Muu, the Second Mizukage, and Madara (he even took a Meteorite to the face) before Tsunade finally healed his chakras, which shows incredible amounts of stamina and durability. Speed wise, despite Itachi being one of the fastest ninjas around, Onoki is quite fast himself (blitzing Kabuto), and can even increase his speed via lightening his body. Therefore in a battle of speed, Onoki is more than capable of handling himself. Onoki should win this match 7 out of 10 times.

Gaara: Gaara is another major threat to Itachi, since Gaara fights mainly at long range and uses sand, as opposed to his own being, to keep the opponents at bay and overwhelm them. Gaara has fighting style that directly counters Itachi's, and with his knowledge on the Uchiha's abilities, Gaara will know to keep the distance and avoid eye contact at all costs (which, with his sand flying everywhere, will be quite easy). Gaara, however, has no way to break through Susanoo (though I do question if it has ever been proven that Susanoo protects from below as well). So this battles comes down to Gaara's ability to keep Itachi at a distance and defend against his attacks until Itachi can no longer sustain Susanoo and Gaara can swoop in for the kill. Gaara wins this match 6 out of 10 times.

Mei: Mei has proven herself to have a counter to the deadly Susanoo technique; Acid. Her Acid Mist melts through Susanoo, making the ultimate defense useless. However, given this location, and the fact that the mist is only in close quarters, Mei would fall victim to a genjutsu far before she got the mist up enough. Furthermore, Mei hasn't shown the speed to outpace Itachi, nor has she shown the ability break out of genjutsu. Mei's only chance is to hope she sets up Acid Mist before Itachi gets her, which I don't think she can, or keep him at a distance with her Suitons (remember, Mei is incredibly fast at hand seals, one of the fastest), but even then, I don't see her being able to keep Itachi at bay for the entire match. Itachi wins this 8/10 times. 

Tsunade: Tsunade is a close ranged fighter, which, in a match against a Sharingan user, means almost certain death. Her physical strength and incredible stamina/durability/healing prowess means that she is capable of breaking through Susanoo, as she showed, and able to handle incredible amounts of damage, both mental and physical. However, Tsunade, unlike Ei, isn't incredibly fast and won't be able to outpace Itachi, nor dodge his techniques, nor keep him at a distance. Tsunade's only means of winning this match is by using her incredible physical strength to smash Susanoo and Itachi, which means she has to get close enough to land a fist, and thus susceptible to genjutsu/amaterasu. Amaterasu vs. Byakugo is a stalemate, as we don't know which technique is faster, but Itachi can win this match through genjutsu and decapitation, or many other methods. Even with Katsuya considered, Itachi can also use a Genjutsu on Katsuya to subdue her, or (possibly, I don't know how this would work) using Sword of Totsuka. Itachi takes this match 7 out of 10 times. 

Mifune: Mifune is a close range fighter, and has shown no genjutsu resistance, nor has he shown the means of cutting through Susanoo, so Itachi handles this match quite handidly 9 out of 10 times. 

Overall, Itachi, despite being a very powerful ninja, Onoki, Ei, and Gaara are just to perfect counters for his fighting style.


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## Dr. White (Feb 27, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> It is in my honest opinion that each member of the Gokage has the potential to defeat Itachi, and vice versa.
> 
> Ei: Ei proved to be an incredible counter to the Uchiha, with blinding speed, incredible stamina, and the ability to tank like no one has tanked before. His blinding speed provides him with the defense against most of Itachi's deadliest techniques, such as the Sword of Totsuka, Katon style techniques, Yasaka no Magatama, and makes capturing him in a Genjutsu incredibly difficult, since eye contact wouldn't last more than a half-a-second, if at all. His incredible stamina allows him to easily outlast Itachi, especially considering the ladder will have to maintain Susanoo (and armored Susanoo at that, since Ei can shatter Susanoo ribs), which significantly drains Itachi's already low stamina. Ultimately, Ei seems to be a superb counter to Itachi, but Itachi can definitely win this if he lands Amaterasu (don't forget, Ei had to pump chakra into a Shunshin to avoid it, which if Itachi times it perfectly, Ei won't be able to pump enough chakra to avoid it). However, overall, Ei should win 7 out of 10 times.
> 
> ...


nope      .


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## Big Mom (Feb 27, 2016)

I always expected quality posts from you Dr. White, what has happened?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Somebody thinks Mei has a chance?
> 
> Realy?
> 
> Oh come on, she gets negged.



 She's actually a skilled Kage Level ninja honestly, but against Itachi, she's screwed.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Not look at Itachi's finger since he has full knowledge
> 
> or stay out of the range of Itachi's Genjutsu w/ flight
> 
> ...





 Naruto had complete knowledge on Itachi's Genjutsu and he still got negged.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I always expected quality posts from you Dr. White, what has happened?



Sometimes quality posts are just one word.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I always expected quality posts from you Dr. White, what has happened?



 You negged yourself by claiming Mifune actually had a 10% chance against Itachi.


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## Baroxio (Feb 27, 2016)

People are really shitting on Mei, IMHO. Given the right distance, location and knowledge, I think she can do well in a guerilla warfare approach, blocking Sharingan with mist and attacking through Futton.

That said, Itachi has shown immense physical ability, especially concerning speed to close distance, as well as the ability to fight in low visibility locations. He also has clones to help negate knowledge problems, so Itachi definitely has the toolkit to deal with her and the intelligence to most optimally make use of that toolkit.

Things only becomes worse for her when the match isn't so lopsided.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> She's actually a skilled Kage Level ninja honestly, but against Itachi, she's screwed.



Yes, she is, but Itachi is still too bad of a match-up for her.


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## Saru (Feb 27, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> In the way that he was capable of blitzing both Deidara and Kabuto, keep up with Madara, and and still lighten up his body more to further increase his speed.




Onoki has to lighten his weight in order to fly, so the feat you are referring to was already an application of increased speed. There's no evidence that Onoki can fly faster than he did in that instance. In addition, Kabuto was *ambushed*. Kabuto said that himself. I'm not saying that Onoki's speed is not impressive, but it's not _more_ impressive than Itachi's speed. Itachi, on the other hand, was able to feint _Sage Mode_ Kabuto with a Karasu Bunshin in front of Kabuto's eyes in a heated battle, then follow up with a sword swing. Itachi's speed feat is objectively more difficult to accomplish and requires more speed.




> Because Onoki was fighting an opponent who was a mirror clone of himself, I'm not sure exactly what that proves.




That's true. My point was simply that if Onoki was faster than Muu (who I also is slower than Itachi), he should have been able to defeat him more easily. There are several other factors that played a part in their battle--most notably Muu's invisibility--but the fact that Onoki was unable to defeat him means that there were aspects of Muu's skillset that he could not overcome. I think speed is one of them (I think that both Onoki and Muu fly at the same speed, essentially).




> My statement was referring to the fact that Onoki used several techniques during his fight with Muu, and still was capable of fighting more. It was a feat on stamina, not strength. Onoki has far above average stamina, once again, he was capable of fighting Muu to a stalemate, with both spamming Jinton, then fight against Gengetsu, then further fight against Madara before Tsunade healed him. If I need to get a list of every technique he used during those fights I can, but you can see he has incredible amounts of stamina, especially in comparison to Itachi. And explain to me why Jinton fails? What exactly can Itachi do against it? He isn't Madara, he also isn't an Edo Tensei, so explain to me what Itachi does to counter a Jinton laser or Jinton cube?




From my perspective, Onoki's stamina is slightly above the average Kage-level ninja. Itachi is someone who qualifies as Kage-level in my opinion, so Onoki's stamina is above Itachi's but not enough for it to be a deciding factor in this match up. The issue lies in the fact that Onoki cannot hit Itachi with Jinton, and if he gets within mid or short range, Itachi will have an advantage, so spamming Jinton would be the best approach. As we have seen in the battle with Muu, Onoki wears himself out quickly when he spams Jinton. When Onoki was fighting Gengetsu, Onoki was too tired to use Jinton and says _"I'm gonna have to *come right at him*,"_ which is not a smart thing to do against Itachi here.

Itachi, on the other hand, can be threatening with merely kunai and shuriken, which require far, far less stamina than using Doton or Jinton. Itachi's shurikenjutsu is so fast and deadly that Sasuke needed prep to keep up with him, and even then, he was still unable to keep up with Itachi's full speed, as Itachi was able to make a Karasu Bunshin _during_ the exchange. That shurikenjutsu speed combined with genjutsu and Bunshin feints can be used to not only pressure and defeat Onoki, but interrupt his Jinton-shaping process as well. Personally, I think that Itachi has the speed to dodge Onoki's Jinton with his Body Flicker, but this just goes to prove my point that Itachi can deal with Onoki from all ranges in an efficient manner using his base arsenal, so stamina should not play a major factor in this match up. At most, Itachi will have to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu _one time_ to defeat Onoki. His base arsenal requires far less chakra, and is still a significant threat. 




> The same technique Madara failed to counter, and the same technique that destroyed all the Susanoo clones.




Onoki had help to destroy all of those Susano'o, and Madara did in fact counter Jinton several times with Preta Path, and he was also able to somehow counter Jinton in life (in his battle against both Onoki and Muu) through either Bunshin feints, sheer movement speed, by preventing the jutsu from being used altogether, or some combination of these tactics.




> Not entirely. The clone was used as a defensive, since they knew that flying above on a giant bird would be obvious. But I do agree that blitzing a clone was less impressive than blitzing the actual thing, however, Onoki still kept up with a flying Deidara, as well as Madara (whom he even caught off guard), and Muu.




Onoki caught Madara off guard when he was busy fighting a small army division. That obviously wouldn't be the case in a one-on-one battle between Onoki and Madara, especially given that Onoki had to touch the ground in order for that to happen. Much like the feat with Kabuto, Onoki's feat was accomplished due to his opponent's attention being elsewhere. As for matching Deidara's bird speed, that is an impressive feat, but Itachi would be able to do the same on foot. Sasuke was still able to keep up with Deidara on foot and was actually too fast for Deidara to fight without a range advantage. Kakashi and KN0 Naruto were able to keep up with Deidara as he flew away from them on his bird. Deidara's bird speed is good, but the main advantage of Deidara's flight is the extended range it provides, not its speed. 

And again, nothing suggests that Muu is _faster than_ Itachi either, so bringing Muu up is not entirely relevant.




> Yet when you look at the scan, neither Gaara's nor Onoki's defensive techniques were damaged at all. Gaara would be able to defend against it himself. Plus, ONCE AGAIN, stop making Itachi out to be an equal to Madara, that is not the case. And how exactly would it go through the sand? Aside from Part I, we actually haven't seen a technique break through Gaara's sand, and that is the normal sand, that isn't counting techniques like his Mini Shukaku shield.




Actually, Gaara's defense was damaged severely. You can see the cloud of sand billowing up from the site of impact in the second scan, and you can also see Madara's Magatama just cracking Onoki's Doton Golem. The Magatama busted through Gaara's sand completely and ate through most of Onoki's Golem. As for your question, I imagine that Itachi's Yasaka Magatama would go through Gaara's sand the same way that Madara's did. Itachi can throw the Magatama in pieces like he did against Kabuto.



I see no reason why Itachi's Magatama would be less effective. Granted, Itachi has not shown the ability to produce as many Magatama as Madara can, he can continue to the generate them and fire them in smaller quantities. Not every aspect of Madara is necessarily superior to Itachi by default, and I see no reason for Itachi's "strongest long-range ninjutsu," which was fired alongside KCM Naruto FRS and Killer B's Bijuudama, to be considerably weaker than Madara's. No one has said that Itachi and Madara were equals, and that implication does not follow from one aspect of their Susano'o having a similar effect.​


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 27, 2016)

Itachi clears all off them with minimal difficulty, especially since this is individually based, none of them can win against Susano'o/Totsuka. Each kage will push Itachi differently, but Raikage and Oonoki will push the hardest, but it won't be enough.

The knowledge is full for everyone, so that means Itachi will have an advantage since he's characteristically started off with more intelligence and better strategy skills than any of the Gokage.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Mei - This will be a very tough fight for Itachi,



We'll just go ahead and file this one under "Nope."

Itachi dodges all of Mei's Ninjutsu on foot and no-diffs her with some clone game or Susano'o. She doesn't have the speed or physical skill to contend with him in a basic attack exchange, and Susano'o completely overpowers her.



> Tsunade - Tsunade pushes Itachi to extremely high diff w/ Katsuya and Byakugo defense, but falls to Totsuka Sword sealing Katsuya and herself.



Amaterasu, tho.



> Onoki - I see Onoki taking this more often than not.



Yeah, no.

Amaterasu, tho.


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## Turrin (Feb 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Full knowledge doesn't grant her the reflexes to avoid Totsuka nor the capability of being able to fight eyes closed.


The starting distance of 25m gives her the ability to put up Mist before Itachi kills her, and if she has demonic mist, I believe she has Silent Killing mastered. If you don't, then cool, but you can at least understand my point if she does.




Dr. White said:


> What makes you think the man who can weave seals and make clones faster than sage sensing and sharingan, and physically shadow Bee via speed is going to have a problem tracking Gaara, the character who is literally the least physically active person in the manga?
> .


None of that has anything to do with Itachi's ability to find Gaara when he's hiding in an area w/o LOS. This isn't a speed contest, this is Gaara being able to escape into the hideout.



> Itachi shushins up, and gives his starting gourd sand the CE Sasuke treatment and waves his finger in his face.


Gaara's Gourd Sand was fast enough to defend CS2-Kimi in Part I and defend Enton attacks in Part II and Ei's leg drop at the last secound, there is no indication whatsoever that Itachi is fast enough to blitz past Gaara's Sand. 



> What makes you think at this distance that Gaara is going to be able to get in the air? You do realize Full goes both ways right?


The distance is 25M. Itachi isn't crossing 25m while being harassed by Gaara's Gourd Sand, before Gaara can take flight.



> Itachi still genjutsu Gaara from the air with Karasu Bushins/crows


You think Crows are getting past Gaara's Sand. Your really reaching w/ this.

Plus Gaara has full knowledge and would just avoid eye contact w/ Suna Tama and Third Eye.



> With a distraction, Itachi can always just super jump up to him like he did fleeing Bee.


Full knowledge means Gaara knows exactly how far Itachi can jump and will simply stay out of that range.



> Yeah, and when has he shown to be that effective with 3rd Eye sensin that he can just go fucking Kabuto mode


Gaara has been able to fight effectively w/ the Third Eye since the Chunin Exams.



> Yeah, if Itachi is forced to fight off a stroke for the first 5 minutes of the fight.


Well it is Itachi so that is possible 

But yeah, Itachi isn't fucking Kaguya level speed, so just stop w/ this BS as it just comes off bias.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

Lighter sand is faster sand not some different type of sand 

Gaara can replicate said feat against a slower itachi without his sand being sped up


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> But yeah, Itachi isn't fucking Kaguya level speed, so just stop w/ *this BS as it just comes off bias.*



Cause you're not bias against Itachi


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The starting distance of 25m gives her the ability to put up Mist before Itachi kills her, and if she has demonic mist, I believe she has Silent Killing mastered. If you don't, then cool, but you can at least understand my point if she does.




And what do you think will happen if Itachi opens with Goukakyuu and Mei tries to open with Hidden Mist? Do you think that Mei will be able to cover the battlefield with mist and dodge Itachi's Goukakyuu at the same time? Or do you think that Mei will have time to cover the battlefield with mist and then counter Goukakyuu with Suiton all before Itachi's Goukakyuu gets to her? Itachi's hand seal speed and jutsu execution speed are both greater than Mei's (not to mention physical movement speed), so he should have the offensive advantage from the get-go at all (reasonable) ranges.​


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Cause you're not bias against Itachi


Oh please, You call anyone bias against Itachi who isn't Bias for Itachi.



Saru said:


> And what do you think will happen if Itachi opens with Goukakyuu and Mei tries to open with Hidden Mist? Do you think that Mei will be able to cover the battlefield with mist and dodge Itachi's Goukakyuu at the same time? Or do you think that Mei will have time to cover the battlefield with mist and then counter Goukakyuu with Suiton all before Itachi's Goukakyuu gets to her? Itachi's hand seal speed and jutsu execution speed are both greater than Mei's (not to mention physical movement speed), so he should have the offensive advantage from the get-go at all (reasonable) ranges.​



Gokakyuu the Jutsu that has a 5m range and has never exceeded that distance, at a 25m starting distance. Yeah I don't think anything is going to happen to impede Mei's usage of Mist.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Gokakyuu the Jutsu that has a 5m range and has never exceeded that distance









Turrin said:


> Oh please, You call anyone bias against Itachi who isn't Bias for Itachi.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2016)

I love when people make it so easy for me to prove them wrong.

First off here is the panel with the best perspective for evaluating distance in that instance:



Yeah suddenly when not using a fucked perspective it doesn't look like much distance at all

Furthermore, According to Kishimoto the max length of Sasuke's Chidori Eisou against Deidara's C2 Dragon was 5m:



So Yeah 5m in pretty dam big in Kishimoto's manga:



To give some perspective 25M is 5x the length of Sasuke's Chidori Eisou. So it's absolutely laughable to suggest Grand Fireball can cross that entire distance, let alone before someone extremely skilled in casting Ninjutsu and hand-seals herself, can use Demonic Mist and move out of the way of an extremely linear Jutsu at the same time.

But no I'm bias against Itachi because I don't agree w/ that ridiculous scenario, spare me your BS AP. Also I repeat Itachi fanboys call anyone bias against Itachi who isn't bias for Itachi, prime example is delivered on a silver platter curtsey of AP's butthurt.


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 28, 2016)

Itachi easily defeats the Gokage 1 on 1. Mei is the easiest win, Gaara is the hardest, but still easy.


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## Itachі (Feb 28, 2016)

Itachi's better off firing off a Suiryudan instead of Gokakyu, it has a longer range and Mei's going to find it harder to counter compared to a Katon. Though I don't think that Itachi will have any trouble with Mei, I don't think she could keep up with his feint game or his speedy Jutsu execution. She's fast but she's not on Itachi's level. Itachi could keep up with Mei's handseals with the Sharingan whereas it's debatable whether Mei could do the same.


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## Itachi san88 (Feb 28, 2016)

Itachi beats them all 1vs1 without question.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Itachi's better off firing off a Suiryudan instead of Gokakyu, it has a longer range and Mei's going to find it harder to counter compared to a Katon. Though I don't think that Itachi will have any trouble with Mei, I don't think she could keep up with his feint game or his speedy Jutsu execution. She's fast but she's not on Itachi's level. Itachi could keep up with Mei's handseals with the Sharingan whereas it's debatable whether Mei could do the same.


Thing is it's not Mei vs Itachi in Jutsu execution speed. It's Mei's casting speed vs Itachi's casting speed + the time it takes Itachi's Jutsu to cross 25m + any additional distance Mei creates, as she can jump backwards while casting Jutsu. If the match was at short Itachi would have a chance to shutdown Mei's ability to cast Mist, but at 25m (or x5 the distance of Sasuke's Max Eisou, if you prefer), let's give the dam Mizukage some credit.


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## Baroxio (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I love when people make it so easy for me to prove them wrong.
> 
> First off here is the panel with the best perspective for evaluating distance in that instance:
> 
> ...


Sasuke's CS2 Chidori Eiso is likely much longer than his Eiso in Base, which is when Deidara made that note. It's pretty obviously not 5 meters, since we can just compare Sasuke's size (let's say, 1.5 meters) to the length of his blade.

Does that blade look like 3.5 Sasuke lengths? No? Then it's a LOT longer than 5 meters. This also explains why Deidara is surprised it reached in the previous panel you curiously left out. 



Stop being disingenuous, Turrin.


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## Itachі (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Thing is it's not Mei vs Itachi in Jutsu execution speed. It's Mei's casting speed vs Itachi's casting speed + the time it takes Itachi's Jutsu to cross 25m + any additional distance Mei creates, as she can jump backwards while casting Jutsu. If the match was at short Itachi would have a chance to shutdown Mei's ability to cast Mist, but at 25m (or x5 the distance of Sasuke's Max Eisou, if you prefer), let's give the dam Mizukage some credit.



That's true but imo Itachi should still be able to close the distance with the aid of Elemental Ninjutsu & his Shunshin. Itachi can try and stop Mei from using Kirigakure no Jutsu by barraging her constantly with attacks. If Mei does activate the Jutsu, do you think that Itachi's completely helpless to her?


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> Sasuke's CS2 Chidori Eiso is likely much longer than his Eiso in Base, which is when Deidara made that note. It's pretty obviously not 5 meters, since we can just compare Sasuke's size (let's say, 1.5 meters) to the length of his blade.
> .


Sasuke himself says that Deidara is staying just outside of his reach, which Deidara based off of the 5m estimate, and Deidara attributed Sasuke using his sword as a jumping point to why Sasuke's Eisou's reach was great enough the second time, not his Eisou being any larger in CS2. 

So going to have to say nothing suggests Sasuke's Eisou's size increased.

But even if we go by Sasuke's other smaller Eisou usages, the length of Eisou is clearly >= the distance Itachi's Grand Fireball traveled against Team 7, and x5 the length of it is still an huge amount of distance.



> Does that blade look like 3.5 Sasuke lengths? No? Then it's a LOT longer than 5 meters.


Your relying on Kishimoto's sitting there and actually taking the time to figure out how big Eisou should be relative to a Sasuke's height and drawing Sasuke's height appropriately. He's obviously not doing calcs like that. And your trying to talk to me about being disingenuous 



> This also explains why Deidara is surprised it reached in the previous panel you curiously left out. Stop being disingenuous, Turrin.


i'm not being disengenous, I just simply bother to read the actual mange, which apparently you do not, as if you did, you'd have known that Deidara literally on the very next page realized that the reason Sasuke's Eiso reached is because Sasuke used the Katana as a jumping point and his wing to for extra momentum:
Sanjuu Rashoumon

Rather than his Eisou increasing in size.



Itachі said:


> That's true but imo Itachi should still be able to close the distance with the aid of Elemental Ninjutsu & his Shunshin. Itachi can try and stop Mei from using Kirigakure no Jutsu by barraging her constantly with attacks.


I'm sorry man but i find this fairly ridiculous, Demoic Mist requires a single hand-seal, and your telling me she couldn't get that off, before Itachi crosses 25m. Come on, again give the dam mizukage some credit, she casted Jutsu fast enough to be effective in a duels  against Madara and Sasuke at much shorter distances for fucks sake. And Itachi isn't significantly faster, if at all than ether of them.

I mean Itachi isn't Gated Gate or A Hiraishin user w/ a Hiraishin marking right next to Mei. Which are pretty much the only ones who should be in the discussion for crossing 25m and preventing Mei from using a 1 hand-seal Jutsu at 25m, based on speed alone (sans Gods/Demi-Gods).


> If Mei does activate the Jutsu, do you think that Itachi's completely helpless to her?


No I just think it will be much more difficult for Itachi, than people are making it out to be.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I love when people make it so easy for me to prove them wrong.
> 
> First off here is the panel with the best perspective for evaluating distance in that instance:
> 
> ...



I can give you multiple panels of the same fights showing the distance between Kakashi and Naruto's group. Panels that I've previously posted and these






You have just one panel in which Itachi looks like he is in a middle of a movement after Kakashi jumped back. You claim that Kishimoto sucks with scaling yet you cling to one panel while others show a different distance and are consistent with each other. My feelings towards Itachi as a character are far less intense than yours it seems. Do you still want to cling to Databook's description? How about I show you Asa Kujaku being "Short Range" tech and same 5 meters, I guess it was but a 5 meters between Gai and a biju using acid cloud. But Kishimoto just sucks. 

I don't care about Itachi's Gokakyu vs Mei at 25 meters. But I care when I see blatant bullshit that "Gokakyu never crossed 5 meters". And in the same post I see unfounded accusations of bias. You should stop embarrassing yourself.


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## Itachі (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry man but i find this fairly ridiculous, Demoic Mist requires a single hand-seal, and your telling me she couldn't get that off, before Itachi crosses 25m. Come on, again give the dam mizukage some credit, she casted Jutsu fast enough to be effective in a duels  against Madara and Sasuke at much shorter distances for fucks sake. And Itachi isn't significantly faster, if at all than ether of them.
> 
> I mean Itachi isn't Gated Gate or A Hiraishin user w/ a Hiraishin marking right next to Mei. Which are pretty much the only ones who should be in the discussion for crossing 25m and preventing Mei from using a 1 hand-seal Jutsu at 25m, based on speed alone (sans Gods/Demi-Gods).
> 
> No I just think it will be much more difficult for Itachi, than people are making it out to be.



I'm not saying that Itachi will cross the distance before she gets it off, I just think that he's able to pressure her to a large extent and it's not going to be easy for her to get it off. Wasn't Kakashi able to react to Zabuza's attacks in the mist while Zabuza was well versed in the art of killing? I don't think Mei's been stated to have such prowess with Kirigakure no Jutsu. 

Also, I've always thought about this and it does seem silly but.. couldn't Itachi just run out of the mist?


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## Sadgoob (Feb 28, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> I can give you multiple panels of the same fights showing the distance between Kakashi and Naruto's group. Panels that I've previously posted and these:
> 
> [removed by Sadgoob]
> 
> ...


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> I can give you multiple panels of the same fights showing the distance between Kakashi and Naruto's group. Panels that I've previously posted and these
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah and they are all inferior panels to measuring distance than the one I presented you, as the one I showed you was actually on a horizontal plane w/ a clear shot demonstrating distance. And sure Itachi is still sliding back a bit, but his slide appeared to be basically over, and even if we add like a 1/3m to the distance, which is being generous as fuck, it's still well within the 5m distance, based on Eiso's size. 



> My feelings towards Itachi as a character are far less intense than yours it seems


As yes my seething hatred for Itachi that allows me to believe a fucking kage can cast one fucking Jutsu before Itachi can cross 25m, or a Jutsu that has been consistently shown to never cross distance anywhere near 25m, wouldn't be a problem at 25m.

Yes, clearly my hatred knows no bounds and this has nothing to do with you just being overly sensitive about one of your fav characters 



> Do you still want to cling to Databook's description?


I use the evidence that the author provided us until contradicted by another source. Grand Fire Ball is a Short Range Technique according to the DB, and while due to scaling issue and drawing problems from Kishi, it might in certain panels appear to you like it crosses slightly more than 5m, for the most part the Jutsu has been used in CQC and overall as a Short Range technique. Here we are talking about 25m, which is well into what Kishimoto considers Long-Range (Long Range is 10m+). I have no reason to believe Grand-Fireball is effective at that range, none whatsoever, and while you can quibble about a meter here or there with this panel and that panel, you haven't presented a compelling argument whatsofuckingever to prove otherwise or even to prove that it can go beyond 5m; all you've presented is your belief that in X panel it appears like a bigger distance than 5m, while to me it does not appear they were beyond 5m in Y panel that shows the scene much more clearly or Kishimoto's understanding of 5m, based on the length of Eisou, which the author called 5m.



> How about I show you Asa Kujaku being "Short Range" tech and same 5 meters, I guess it was but a 5 meters between Gai and a biju using acid cloud. But Kishimoto just sucks.


Is Asa Kujaku Grand Fireball? If not than you can cry me a river AP, because it's completely irrelevant to this conversation. I'm fully aware that Kishimoto retecon's shit, changes things, and can make mistakes, but the problem is you have not presented any evidence credible enough to suggest this is the case for Grand-Fireball. All you presented me were panels where Itachi could still be within 5m of Team 7, depending on perspective. 



> don't care about Itachi's Gokakyu vs Mei at 25 meters. But I care when I see blatant bullshit that "Gokakyu never crossed 5 meters". And in the same post I see unfounded accusations of bias. You should stop embarrassing yourself.


Translation, all you care about twisting the intent of my words, to try and make me sound foolish, simply because your butt hurt about me not sucking Itachi's D.

My intent was simply that Grand Fire Ball is not effective at 25m, because it's primarily a short-range technique, point blank period. I don't really care if someone thinks it can cross 6m instead of 5m, just like I don't care if someone thinks it can only cross 4m instead of 5m, although there is absolutely no piece of evidence substantial enough to overturn the authors own dam words in the Data-book about the distance is can cover.

Edit: Furthermore, to call someone bias, because You have 2 panels where it looks like the Jutsu might go 6m instead of 5m in your opinion, it's absolutely ridiculous and shows you have a clear agenda to simply attack me on a personal level, rather than actually examine whether what I said was bias against Itachi or not, because at the end of the day whether it can cross 6m or 8m, or only 5m, my point is still very valid that it isn't going to be effective at this distance against Mei, which isn't bias, it's just a fact.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 28, 2016)

I uh... I agree with Rocky.


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## Itachі (Feb 28, 2016)

Yeah, I don't really think the mist is going to hamper Itachi too much now looking back on it..


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I'm not saying that Itachi will cross the distance before she gets it off, I just think that he's able to pressure her to a large extent and it's not going to be easy for her to get it off.


Itachi can't pressure her at Long-Range, because his Long-Range game is inferior to Mei's. If Itachi uses Water Dragon, his Water Dragon will be fodderized by a vastly larger water dragon, sending the force of both water dragons (as that's what happens when a weaker elemental attack looses to a stronger one), back at him, and than suddenly he's the one on the defensive and being pushed back as Mei, continues to build distance, since she can leap backwards while casting water dragon at the same time, she can also preemptively form the seals for Demonic Mist, so the moment she breaks off the Water Dragon, she's ready to cast Demonic Mist. 

So yes it would be possible for someone to pressure Mei at long range, until they can cross the distance, but Mei's ranged game is pretty dam impressive, so not many people can do that effectively enough to prevent Mei from casting a single 1 hand-seal Jutsu.



> Wasn't Kakashi able to react to Zabuza's attacks in the mist while Zabuza was well versed in the art of killing? I don't think Mei's been stated to have such prowess with Kirigakure no Jutsu.


She hasn't been stated, but i'm assuming she is given that there is no point to her utilizing Demonic Mist and learning it, unless she has the capability to fight within it. She's also the Mizukage of the village Zabuza hailed from, and Kirigakuru is constantly surrounded by Mist, which is why I think all Kirigakure Shinobi are for the most part effective in fighting within mist, some more than others, but Itachi has no experience whatsoever, and it still hard counters his Sharingan.

If you think differently, that's fine,but I give Mei the benefit of the doubt, and at least you should be able to see where I'm coming from if we assume she has said skill.



> so, I've always thought about this and it does seem silly but.. couldn't Itachi just run out of the mist?


Sure why not, but than where exactly does that get him. He still has no easy way to hit Mei or disperse the Mist, unless he's packing a wide AOE Elemenetal Jutsu (preferably Fuuton) that he hasn't shown before.



> Yeah, I don't really think the mist is going to hamper Itachi too much now looking back on it..


Literally none of those examples were within demonic mist, and therefore irrelevant.



Alex Payne said:


> I uh... I agree with Rocky.


Just so were clear, basically your saying we should ignore al statements from characters and kishimoto, even if there is no solid enough evidence to say otherwise, because if so i'll remember this anytime you ever bring up a hype statement about itachi from the DB, Characters, or Author.


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## Itachі (Feb 28, 2016)

Those examples were all after Zabuza had activated Hidden Mist.

The first two images and the last image were literally right after Zabuza activated Kirigakure no Jutsu.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The starting distance of 25m gives her the ability to put up Mist before Itachi kills her, and if she has demonic mist, I believe she has Silent Killing mastered. If you don't, then cool, but you can at least understand my point if she does.


Itachi is going to cast first because she is faster, and she will be forced to deal with it. He can also shushin in and press her, before she can spew out enough given he can shadow Bee from 10 to 15m.

Mei getting close to Itachi who can bring up susanoo in a flash, genjutsu her, and clone feint her is gonna end in her death Imo. Even Kakashi was fending off and protecting team 7 in the mist.





> None of that has anything to do with Itachi's ability to find Gaara when he's hiding in an area w/o LOS. This isn't a speed contest, this is Gaara being able to escape into the hideout.


Gaara is never going to escape Itachi. Especially not when Itachi has full. 




> *Gaara's Gourd Sand was fast enough to defend CS2-Kimi in Part I *and defend Enton attacks in Part II and Ei's leg drop at the last secound, there is no indication whatsoever that Itachi is fast enough to blitz past Gaara's Sand.


I'm positive that if Itachi could ask you, his exact sentiment would be 


He intercepted a fight between two others. Not at all the same as dodging Amaterasu or Ei mid fight.

Uhm, Itachi moving faster Killer Bee, outweaving sharingan pre cog, and bushin feinting sharingan and Sage sensing all point that outcome.




> The distance is 25M. Itachi isn't crossing 25m while being harassed by Gaara's Gourd Sand, before Gaara can take flight.


Lmao Itachi cast a fireball faster than Gaara can read, and blocks it with sand. LOS is blocked and "Itachi" attacks from periphery (all before Gaara can even think about escaping) Gaara crushes it. Crow Clone. Shinkarasu. GG Gaara.



> You think Crows are getting past Gaara's Sand. Your really reaching w/ this.


Lmao what the fuck.

Itachi summoned crows that successfully held up Susanoo Sasuke. Kakuzu was fucking A distracted by crows. They literally just have to make eye contact with Gaara and can flock him all day.



> Plus Gaara has full knowledge and would just avoid eye contact w/ Suna Tama and Third Eye.


Except gaara has no way of relying on thrid eye with signing a 100% death contract.



> Full knowledge means Gaara knows exactly how far Itachi can jump and will simply stay out of that range.


Full knowledge is he knows the ins and outs of Itachi's stats, and abiltiies. Not the exact metrics of his capabilities. Talk about reaching. Itachi can also lure him out, or idk scale the huge ass wall Sasuke did.

This all granting Gaara isn't overwhelmed in the first 5 seconds of the fight.




> Gaara has been able to fight effectively w/ the Third Eye since the Chunin Exams.


He can fight with the Third eye. He cannot fight relying on the third eye which is what he would have to do to protect himself/ pose any threat at all while avoiding Genjutsu.


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## Yoko (Feb 28, 2016)

The 5M Chidori Eiso that Deidara referred to vs. the quite notably longer CS2 Chidori Eiso.  It would really help _not_ to conveniently chop out manga panels and post the entire page so that people can see what Deidara was referring to.  Deidara never called the second Chidori Eiso linked above 5 meters long - it was in reference to the first.  Trying to marry the two scans as if they happened on the same page is intentionally misleading.

Over the , who stands at 5.84 feet (or 1.78 meters), here is Gokakyu being used at approximately 11 meters.  

Furthermore, it's seen burning a solid distance _behind_ Killer Bee and Naruto, despite Samehada absorbing half the attack.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

*Shouten Itachi's* Fireball almost hit Naruto from 15 to 20m and then the Fireball burrowed on for* about a dozen more meters* into he forest


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Yo that image is hilarious


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## Alex Payne (Feb 28, 2016)

Kishi can't into scaling, guys. DB1 entry > your scans.


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## Itachі (Feb 28, 2016)

Seriously though, I actually can't see Mei outplaying Itachi in CQC even when he's in the mist..


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 28, 2016)

Lmao at anyone thinking Mei vs Itachi is even remotely close, she falls to his genjutsu plain and simple. There's no ninjutsu war coming nothing of the sort.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi can also shushin in [from 25m] and press her, before she can spew out enough given he can shadow Bee from 10 to 15m.





Dr. White said:


> Raikage is never touching Mei [from 30m] in amegakure.


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## Itachі (Feb 28, 2016)

yooo

was looking at a zabuza vs itachi thread and found a post from turrin, what a coinkidink 



> A skilled Captain Anbu like Itachi should be able to handle himself in the mist against an enemy like Zabuza and if he has trouble he can use KB Feints and Susano'o to protect him from Zabuza's attacks. Eventually he should be able to defeat Zabuza with a clever tactic.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

On the subject of genjutsu bar tskuyomi where the genjutsu being obvious or not wont matter aren't most of itachi genjutsu quite obvious ?

Restraining naruto who has zero chakra control compared to these guys shouldn't be used to say these guys get pawned by it at least I don't think it should 

The argument here isn't they are kage . It's they have massively better chakra control than naruto who hadn't mastered kyuubi . That's a fact 

Let's go through his genjutsu 

- stakes : obvious binding gen

- paper burning : obvious binding gen

- ukataka: see above 

- crow clone : not obvious 

though even at that a bunch of crows flying at u is something u would either jump away from preventing the disguised shiruken attack or attack with something to counter 

So even at that , it may not be as subtle as some make it out to b

Not downplaying here but looking at it . Tskuyomi and koto won't be so hyped if basic Sharingan genjutsu could do that 

Kurenai would also low diff Mei if all it took was non Sharingan genjutsu to take her out . Do recall kurenai bound kisame and was then countered by itachi Mid attack 

Also genjutsu users can attack while maintain the genjutsu . 

Why is itachi no Sharingan genjutsu hyped stronger than kurenai's?


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## Itachі (Feb 28, 2016)

Itachi can use subtle Genjutsu like Sasuke did on Danzo. And Utakata can be made subtle since Naruto used Rasengan on a Bunshin, threw Shuriken at Itachi and then discovered that he was in a Genjutsu when Itachi literally flew up in the air. That's definitely enough time for Itachi to take advantage and slit his opponent's throat. Bee was rekt by Sasuke's Genjutsu and of course Itachi binded Orochimaru long enough for him to take him out.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Oh please, You call anyone bias against Itachi who isn't Bias for Itachi.



You are extremely biased against Itachi and I'd say most battledomers here would agree that you are less credible than the most blinded Itachi fanboy in regards to anything Itachi related.

If I made a thread about Itachi vs Konohomaru, my line of thinking would be like "would it even take a fraction of a second for Itachi to dismantle the kid ?" and yours would be like "Konohomaru has bunshins and rasengan, what can he do with those here..."

I have no problem of admitting that I have bias towards Itachi, neither should you. I don't want this shit to get to a personal level, but I don't think this kind of dishonesty should be allowed here either. 

Lets get this out of the way for the purpose of a healthier debate.


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## Itachі (Feb 28, 2016)

Not to mention that Itachi used subtle Genjutsu on Sasuke for a good portion of their fight.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If I made a thread about Itachi vs Konohomaru, my line of thinking would be like "would it even take a fraction of a second for Itachi to dismantle the kid ?" and yours would be like "Konohomaru has bunshins and rasengan, what can he do with those here..."



I disagree with you guys on Turrin but this is absolutely true.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


>



I didn't say Itachi will blitz her and end her in one hit though (like you did with Ei). I said he could use his shushin to press in and pressure her, with his much better jutsu execution speed and much more diverse (than Ei) arsenal of all round fighting abilities (which is what he did to fight on par with KB alone).

Also this isn't a confined space like inside an Amegakure skyscraper. Not how I never said Ei would win in the second scenario in an open field.

I think that should quell all questions.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Why is itachi no Sharingan genjutsu hyped stronger than kurenai's?



Because of the manga. And Kurenai did bind Kisame, who was rescued by Itachi. Asuma also assumed and relied on Kurenai's genjutsu working on two S-rank criminals. So it's not exactly without hype itself.



Icegaze said:


> Restraining naruto who has zero chakra control compared to these guys



That's actually a little debatable. The whole "Naruto has bad chakra control" thing died after water-walking. We saw him use a 1-handed Rasengan at the end of part one. He became skilled by the beginning of part two.

Kage like Gaara and A don't have anything suggesting that their raw chakra control is better than Naruto. And it took _both_ Chiyo and Sakura, when both have _high_ chakra control, to break Naruto out of the genjutsu bind.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


>



I've been telling you about Itachi's v3 shunshin for years.

Don't act surprised.


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## Deer Lord (Feb 28, 2016)

Assuming Living Itachi:

Mei- beats her low-diff
Tsunade- beats her mid diff
Gaara- Itachi more than likely wins high-diff with sussano, because gaara has type advantage.
If its in a desert than I see it going up to a nearly 50:50 match.
Onoki- Giving it to itachi high-diff.
Ei- Itachi loses.

Onoki is the only one at itachi's level.
Ei and Gaara are somewhat lower but have type advantage.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Itachi can use subtle Genjutsu like Sasuke did on Danzo. And Utakata can be made subtle since Naruto used Rasengan on a Bunshin, threw Shuriken at Itachi and then discovered that he was in a Genjutsu when Itachi literally flew up in the air. That's definitely enough time for Itachi to take advantage and slit his opponent's throat. Bee was rekt by Sasuke's Genjutsu and of course Itachi binded Orochimaru long enough for him to take him out.



But that's just it 

I don't think itachi decided to make it obvious 

The point of the genjutsu was to put naruto to sleep though . And that's an obvious trick 

The start of the jutsu is just that . I don't think he was like ok let's help naruto figure this out and make it an obvious genjutsu


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I didn't say Itachi will blitz her and end her in one hit though (like you did with Ei).



You said he'd be able to get to her before she places a blinding mist, which is what I said A will be able to do. I never said that he'd hit her before she could block him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> But that's just it
> 
> I don't think itachi decided to make it obvious
> 
> ...



What you are trying to say here makes absolutely no sense.

Whats your claim then ? That Itachi somehow loses control of the genjutsu at some point and can't design it anymore ? 

How did he manage to make it so realistic in the beginning then ? With Naruto witnessing Kakashi and Itachi clash, and then see a KB and then see his team mates lying on the ground, etc...

Itachi made it obvious because there was no point in trying to trick Naruto further.

Like I said in another thread, stop trying to place arbitrary limits on Itachi's genjutsu with nothing to back your claims up.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You said he'd be able to get to her before she places a blinding mist, which is what I said A will be able to do. I never said that he'd hit her before she could block him.


I literally just explained this. If you'd respond to each of my points then we wouldn't have to go through this 

Mei inside Ame building with knowledge can intercept Ei's advance with a huge suiton wall or spewing out the mist (which in a building will not disperse far) in order to break LOS. Ei is going to linearally try and blitz her and has no jutsu to supplment his attack.

Itachi has sharingan to read her every move, a Shushin to get close enough to employ clones, genjutsu, and can straight up outduel her from the get, and force her to break LOS blocking a Katon roaring at her, which as we know, is not very good vs Itachi. Ei does not have Itachi's versatility and well roundness while Itachi boast extremely impressive shushin, reactions, and jutsu speed despite it not being as good as Eis V2 speed.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

So if you think Mei can stop A from advancing towards her, what exactly is stopping the Mizukage from ragdolling Itachi's ass with a gargantuan water dragon when he flickers at her?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> So if you think Mei can stop A from advancing towards her, what exactly is stopping the Mizukage from ragdolling Itachi's ass with a gargantuan water dragon when he flickers at her?



Sharingan precog.
Sage Kabuto


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> So if you think Mei can stop A from advancing towards her, what exactly is stopping the Mizukage from ragdolling Itachi's ass with a gargantuan water dragon when he flickers at her?



Because V1 isn't enough to blitz her. Itachi casting successive jutsu and countering Mei's every move with sharingan along with his great speed while allow him to tail her down and force her to defend in ways Ei can't mimick? Does Ei have clones? Does Ei have genjutsu? Does Ei have Katons to make Mei block, and an element of surprise type fighting style that employs perception and deception?

Same reason Ei would never *catch Bee off  guard three times* in a span of a minute with speed and deception

If Ei was going V2 off bat it be different. But V1 isn't enough speed, and his one dimensional ass approach can be countered in a setting fitted to Mei.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sharingan precog.
> Sage Kabuto



Is Itachi's water wall faster than Raikage?



Dr. White said:


> Itachi casting successive jutsu and countering Mei's every move with sharingan along with his great speed while allow him to tail her down and force her to defend in ways Ei can't mimick?



What is Itachi's counter to Mei opening with a giant water technique and then immediately putting up zero visibility mist? You know, the opening she is apparently capable of pulling off against Raikage before he can apply any pressure?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Is Itachi's water wall faster than Raikage?



No but thanks to his eyes, he will be able to see it coming before it does and do whatever is necessary to prevent getting ragdolled like you mentioned he would be.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> What is Itachi's counter to Mei opening with a giant water technique and then immediately putting up zero visibility mist?


Itachi having sharingan to read her every move, being physically faster, and having weaving speed that surpasses 3 tomoe perception, something V1 can't do. She will be the one reacting to Itachi, and he has follow ups Raikage doesn't. 



> You know, the opening she is apparently capable of pulling off against Raikage before he can apply any pressure?


Ei's only counter to suiton wall is trying to punch through it. Not happening. Itachi can cast a katon to vaporize a section, and follow up with clone feint or weapons. Ei also doesn't know what Mei is casting, where as Itachi does...

Once again these are the same types of tactics that Itachi used against Bee 3 times to get one over on him, something Ei could never do with his one dimensional arsenal, and lack of intelligence as Itachi.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi having sharingan to read her every move, being physically faster, and having weaving speed that surpasses 3 tomoe perception, something V1 can't do. She will be the one reacting to Itachi, and he has follow ups Raikage doesn't.



You just keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again. I know what Itachi's abilities are. If Mei opens with a gigantic water wall and then immediately puts up a mist that renders Itachi's vision useless, what can Itachi do? He going to blitz her from 25m to stop her from using Suiton?



Dr. White said:


> Itachi can cast a katon to vaporize a section, and follow up with clone feint or weapons.



What? Any fire technique Itachi attempted in response to Mei's Suiton would be swallowed up without issue. It wouldn't give him an opening to run through the water. That borders on fanfiction.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You just keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again. I know what Itachi's abilities are. If Mei opens with a gigantic water wall and then immediately puts up a mist that renders Itachi's vision useless, what can Itachi do?


Because it seems nothing is clicking with you. You keep equivocating the two as if I am saying Itachi can use shushin alone to pressure Mei, while I said V1 Ei can't. That's not what I am saying. Ei has to charge V1 and  blitz forward. That speed is not good enough to blitz Mei before she spews out a huge as pool size defense. Ei has nothing to counter this but brute strength, is not an overly tactical fighter, and inside Ame gives her ample time to spew a cloud of mist that will not disperse.

completely different scenario than Itachi outweaving Mei, making her defend from a katon with a last second suiton (once again he has top tier seal weaving and pre cog to see her seals/moevements), and then his next move is a Genjutsu Crow feint from upclose. She's going to get overwhelemed with his battle clarity, and general execution speed.





> What? Any fire technique Itachi attempted in response to Mei's Suiton would be swallowed up without issue. It wouldn't give him an opening to run through the water. That borders on fanfiction.


Not at all. Itachi can vaporize small portions of Suitons with his Samheheda hurting hot Katons, similar to how Bee shaved through Itachi's katon with sameheda.

Itachi can do something like what he did vs Bee there as well, and have the clone cast the katon while he blindsides and flanks. Which was good enough to catch Bee offguard...

Like if you don't get it by now then we are going no where here.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Ei has to charge V1 and  blitz forward. That speed is not good enough to blitz Mei before she spews out a huge as pool size defense [...] completely different scenario than Itachi outweaving Mei, making her defend from a katon with a last second suiton, and then his next move is a Genjutsu Crow feint from upclose.



_How is Itachi going to get close to Mei before she puts mist up?_

Raikage is faster than Itachi and everything in Itachi's arsenal. If he is not fast enough to get to her before he's blind, then how does Itachi get to her before he's blind? Mei's "pool-sized" Suiton would eat up any Katon Itachi flung at her, and then she'd go on to set up the mist before he could get behind her.



Dr. White said:


> Itachi can vaporize small portions of Suitons with his Samheheda hurting hot Katons, similar to how Bee shaved through Itachi's katon with sameheda.







Dr. White said:


> Itachi can do something like what he did vs Bee there as well, and have the clone cast the katon while he blindsides and flanks.



What's the point of the fireball? Mei's already breaking her line of sight with a giant wall of water. Why couldn't Itachi just go around the water wall and flank?


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> _How is Itachi going to get close to Mei before she puts mist up?_
> 
> Raikage is faster than Itachi and everything in Itachi's arsenal. If he is not fast enough to get to her before he's blind, then how does Itachi get to her before he's blind? Mei's "pool-sized" Suiton would eat up any Katon Itachi flung at her, and then she'd go on to set up the mist before he could get behind her.


A.) The same way he shadowed Bee, and same way he popped out at KCM NArdo before Bee could register.
B.) Raikage's V1 speed is not faster than Itachi's casting speed. Nor is it better than his reaction speed. Ei relies on burst attacking while Itachi strings together his attacks while countering the opponent.
C.) Mei would be re actively casting Suiton at Itachi, ya know like how Kakashi was out casting Zabuza with his own Jutsu, and how Itachi hit Kabuto with Suiton Dragon before he could even cast the jutsu. Fireball would get eaten but it would vaporize the portion it was sent through and allow Itachi to maneuver to Mei.




> What's the point of the fireball? Mei's already breaking her line of sight with a giant wall of water. Why couldn't Itachi just go around the water wall and flank?


How the fuck does Itachi know that? He's using the fireball like he always does to force a raid defense and take attention away from his follow up. Like have you ever read an Itachi fight? He can also do this with clone jutsu and genjutsu. When Itachi cast the fireball it completely mask his position, and he's already fast enough to weave and bushin faster than she can see, along with seeing her every movement when he does get vision back on her.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

So basically, Itachi gets close to Mei by opening a hole in her giant water technique with a fire technique and running through the hole before she can activate Hidden Mist. That's where we are?


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> So basically, Itachi gets close to Mei by opening a hole in her giant water technique with a fire technique and running through the hole before she can activate Hidden Mist. That's where we are?



Clone Feint w/Katon or Exploding Clone, take your pick. 

He's done it before to Kakashi, who the fuck is Mei? Lol.


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## Complete_Ownage (Feb 28, 2016)

Mei - I hate to say it but Turrin does have a point in saying she can give Itachi lots of trouble. Granted Itachi will eventually win but she does have the capabilities to make this not a 2 panel fight. The combination of Hidden Mist Jutsu & boil release Futton: Kōmu no Jutsu can have devastating effects.

Gaara - Is well suited for fighting sharigan users as he is well adapt for handling Genjutsu and blocking los for amaterasu. He also has the added advantage of flight. The longer the fight goes on the more trouble Gaara begins and the scales tip on his side. I could make an argument for both sides so ill just say 50/50

Ei - Speed blitz and punches Itachi's head off...no but seriously the raikage is fucking annoyingly overrated and a one dimensional fighter. The only way Ei wins is by outlasting Itachi

Onoki - Between him and Gaara these two stand the best chance of winning. Flight gives him a huge advantage over Itachi while Jinton can easily by pass susanoo. 50/50 imo

Tsunade - Just like Orochimaru she will eventually fall due to genjutsu. Itachi mid difficultly

Basically:

Onoki & Gaara will be the most difficult
Raikage 
Mei & Tsunade at the bottom


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

The same way Sasuke Sharingan precog saw through Darui water wall

Oh wait no he didn't


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> The same way Sasuke Sharingan precog saw through Darui water wall
> 
> Oh wait no he didn't




You mean when Sasuke was in the _*air*_ (with no other place to go)?

The same Sasuke who got handled by B's Acrobat when Itachi didn't?​


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## Sadgoob (Feb 28, 2016)

Can we also talk about Itachi being in the mist, even if it would likely never even happen. My question: so what? Itachi's fought basically blind for most of his life. We've seen him react plenty of times to things he cannot see.

Moreover, as we saw with Zabuza vs Kakashi, clones are ideal for drawing a Hidden Mist user in to be defeated. And Mei doesn't use clones. So Itachi's just got set up a feint and then wait for her to reveal herself.

Mei getting the mist up doesn't change a thing.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> So basically, Itachi gets close to Mei by opening a hole in her giant water technique with a fire technique and running through the hole before she can activate Hidden Mist. That's where we are?



That is one of many scenarios that can play out. Once again you are also assuming Mei is going to be able to cast her best suiton. She is in direct combat here. not saving Tsunade from afar, and Itachi beats her out in all speed categories, most important being Jutsu execution.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Why would Mei be incapable of casting her best Suiton against Itachi if she is fast enough to do it against Raikage.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Why would Mei be incapable of casting her best Suiton against Itachi if she is fast enough to do it against Raikage.




I will try one more time here. 
Ei is one dimensional. He has no "tricks up his sleeve", his arsenal is not diverse, and outside of V2 doesn't have the speed from 30 or 25 meters (which ever one it was) to rely solely on physical speed in order to stop her from casting jutsu.

Itachi on the other hand has weaving speed > V1 speed, pre cog to track her seals/slight body movements, Shushin speed up there with people like Bee, and a myriad of ways to employ deception into his stratgies and counter Mei at every turn with clones, and genjutsu. Mei loses sight of Itachi after the Katon, and uses a suiton, and gets flanked with a clone, and put in a genjutsu, or killed by real Itachi still coming in hot. There are so many possibilities. 

The problem is Itachi has speed + versatility and well roundness for more adaptability with along with his intellect allow him to destroy people eaker or ill equipped.

Raikage has the speed and more quality in that category, but in that thread I didn't see him using Max Shushin so, Me has time to use her versatility to thwart his speed.


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## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2016)

What I don't get with itachi fans is no limit fallacy on genjutsu yet ninjutsu has clear limits 

Itachi genjutsu will either 

- bind ( physically restrict their movement )

- confuse ( false images , subtle trickery) 

- harm them ( paper burning )

What I don't get is if kurenai at point blank range could cancel genjutsu and avoid itachi how Mei is to be entirely defenceless against itachi genjutsu 

I mean shikamaru a Genin knew cause urself pain and u break out 

Itachi best shot is a subtle genjutsu here . Which is likely but then is entirely dependent so far on how the person he is facing fights ( don't see why people don't apply feats when discussing his genjutsu ) 

Deidara bomb guy, make him drop one next to himself 

Danzo focused on looking at his hand too much which is why the subtle trick worked 

What flaw is there in Mei style for said trick to work ?

Other genjutsu can be broken through pain we have seen that already why is this being ignored ?

Basic Sharingan genjutsu Isn't koto , I think some confuse the 2


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## Big Mom (Feb 28, 2016)

Saru said:


> Stuff



I understand your points, and I do agree with the fact that Itachi can indeed take the match against Onoki, but I believe you are underestimating Onoki. Onoki is the same character that kept up with Muu (who was capable of keeping up with RM Naruto), as well as keeping up with Madara. Jinto itself is an insanly powerful and fast technique that not even Sasuke could react to (he needed Tobi to warp him out of it) and Madara was even caught off guard, despite having full knowledge, once or twice. Remember, Onoki also has full knowledge here, and has experience fighting with Uchihas, so to claim he will enter into short/mid range, is claiming that Onoki is stupid, which he is not. Onoki has much more battle experience than Itachi, and fought against Madara Uchiha not once, but twice. We even see  Onoki giving the team advice on fighting an Uchiha. And yes, you do bring up a point about Madara countering Jinton, through the use of PRETA REALM, which Itachi doesn't have access to. Itachi's means of countering Jinton is through Susanoo or dodging, and neither one has shown to be effective. Jinton has shown to destroy Susanoo and has been shown to be too fast to dodge. The most Madara was able to do against it was use Preta Realm, which takes a lot less time to use than attempting to dodge. 

Remember, the gigantic cube verison of Susanoo that destroyed all the Susanoo and Madara was only after Tsunade have Onoki a little bit more chakra, she openly admitted it wasn't much, so claiming that he received help in that attack is not true considering how drained of chakra Onoki already was from his fight against Muu, Gengetsu, and Madara. Not to mention the Jinton laser that, within seconds, completely leveled an entire forest. Claiming that Itachi is going to be pressuring Onoki from a distance with simple kunais is laughable, and claiming that Onoki will give Itachi the opportunity to get close is even more laughable.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Why would Mei be incapable of casting her best Suiton against Itachi if she is fast enough to do it against Raikage.



Didn't Itachi cast a water dragon on Kabuto? Kabuto is light years faster than any of these scrubs.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> What I don't get with itachi fans is no limit fallacy on genjutsu yet ninjutsu has clear limits



You're kidding, right?  Most poeple don't think Itachi's finger genjutsu will work on even Low Kage. They can both detect it and break it before he can put them down with his tier 5.0 speedy movements.

Itachi's the  in history. Shikaku suspects someone's controlling an army with genjutsu - he says Itachi's name instinctively, as an impulse. Itachi's _the_ genjutsu legend in history.

So no. If you held genjutsu at the same level as ninjutsu, and factored Itachi's standing accordingly, we wouldn't have scrubs like Mei, Gaara, etc. being argued to see through and break it before Itachi puts them down.

*edit:* And just because I know it's coming: Shisui _*was*_ considered the strongest Uchiha genjutsu user. But Shisui died when Itachi was a kid. Ao and Shikaku made it clear Itachi's name surpassed Shisui's in terms of genjutsu.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 28, 2016)

> What I don't get is if kurenai at point blank range could cancel genjutsu and avoid itachi how Mei is to be entirely defenceless against itachi genjutsu



Let me explain what happened. Itachi broke her genjutsu. Copied her genjutsu. And used it on her. Kurenai was reacting to her own genjutsu, and knew how to beat it. Kurenai is also the best genjutsu user in Konoha, and thus one of the best in the world. Mei is much worse than Kurenai at handling that situation.

Itachi also blitzed Kurenai shortly after without genjutsu, so it's not as if he was ever going at her seriously anyway. Kakashi stated shortly afterward that base Itachi was _not_ going all out, or anything close to it. He didn't need a genjutsu to hit Kurenai with a kunai, and in fact flash-stepped her a moment later.


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I understand your points, and I do agree with the fact that Itachi can indeed take the match against Onoki, but I believe you are underestimating Onoki. Onoki is the same character that kept up with Muu (who was capable of keeping up with RM Naruto)




Muu didn't keep up with KCM Naruto at all... Quite the opposite, in fact. He reacted to Naruto jumping a hundred feet into the air to attack him--not as impressive when you consider the distance Naruto crossed and the fact that Muu should have been able to sense the attack coming from a mile away--then got put down by Naruto's chakra arm speed.



> as well as keeping up with Madara




Let's add some context to that statement. Muu was there too, so it was _two-on-one_, and Madara *wasn't even taking them seriously*.







> Jinto itself is an insanly powerful and fast technique that not even Sasuke could react to (he needed Tobi to warp him out of it)




Once again, there's more relevant context that you did not mention. Zetsu attempted to heal Sasuke to prevent him from dying of exhaustion, but Sasuke was still in poor shape and out of breath when Onoki attacked him.


*Spoiler*: __ 














> and Madara was even caught off guard, despite having full knowledge, once or twice




Exactly--Madara was caught _off guard_. As in, with the help of Onoki's teammates. Show me a panel of Onoki using Jinton without hampering Madara's movement in some way first. I'll wait. The implication is that Jinton alone is not fast enough to hit someone who is fast on their feet. Itachi is fast on his feet as well.




> Remember, Onoki also has full knowledge here, and has experience fighting with Uchihas, so to claim he will enter into short/mid range, is claiming that Onoki is stupid, which he is not.




I never claimed that Onoki was stupid or that he would willingly enter short or mid range. I said that he would fight from long range, then eventually run out of chakra for Jinton long before Itachi got tired from dodging and fighting with long-range ninjutsu and shurikenjutsu, which would then _force_ Onoki to enter close range.




> Onoki has much more battle experience than Itachi, and fought against Madara Uchiha not once, but twice.




Onoki has more battle experience; no doubt about that. But Itachi is smarter than Onoki.




> And yes, you do bring up a point about Madara countering Jinton, through the use of PRETA REALM, which Itachi doesn't have access to. Itachi's means of countering Jinton is through Susanoo or dodging, and neither one has shown to be effective.




Do explain how you think Madara was able to avoid Jinton without the use of the Preta Path in life, and also explain why Onoki needed the help of Gaara and others to successfully hit Madara (the real Madara, not his inferior clones which could not use the Preta Path at the same time as Susano'o) with Jinton.




> Jinton has shown to destroy Susanoo and has been shown to be too fast to dodge.




When was Jinton shown as too fast to dodge? An example I haven't already refuted, I mean? KCM Naruto can't dodge Jinton in the air, so I hope you're not referring to that one.




> The most Madara was able to do against it was use Preta Realm, which takes a lot less time to use than attempting to dodge.




It wasn't the most he could do; it was _all_ he could do, because Onoki had the support of the Kage in order to put Madara in a position where evasion was difficult if not impossible.




> Remember, the gigantic cube verison of Susanoo that destroyed all the Susanoo and Madara was only after Tsunade have Onoki a little bit more chakra, she openly admitted it wasn't much, so claiming that he received help in that attack is not true considering how drained of chakra Onoki already was from his fight against Muu, Gengetsu, and Madara.




Even if we assume that Onoki was able to accomplish that feat on his own, Amaterasu is faster.



> Not to mention the Jinton laser that, within seconds, completely leveled an entire forest. Claiming that Itachi is going to be pressuring Onoki from a distance with simple kunais is laughable, and claiming that Onoki will give Itachi the opportunity to get close is even more laughable.




Kishi wasted an entire chapter on Sasuke prepping for and still failing to match Itachi's speedy shurikenjutsu. Shurikenjutsu may not be as flashy as Jinton, but it sure gets the job done, and it does so without spending a lot of chakra. My entire point in bringing Itachi's shurikenjutsu up was to prove that Itachi can pressure Onoki from _all_ ranges while using jutsu that require far less chakra than the Mangekyou, so he should not have a problem with stamina in this match up.

I don't feel as though I'm underestimating Onoki at all. If anything, I feel as though I have a higher opinion of him than many others in the NBD. I think he's the strongest of the Gokage, for example.​


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## Yoko (Feb 28, 2016)

Zabuza, an elite Jonin, was punked by an inferior Sharingan user's Genjutsu.  Deidara, a guy who trained himself to resist Sharingan Genjutsu, got punked by an inferior Sharingan user's illusions.  Guy, whose level doesn't really need explaining, created an entire fighting style to avoid an inferior Sharingan user's Genjutsu, implying it hindered him enough in battle to be problematic.  

I don't think anyone is giving Itachi's Genjutsu the benefit of having no limits.  Everything that is being said here has basis.  None of the Kage have Dojutsu or any form of inherent Genjutsu defense.  All they have is Kai, and even if we assume they can break out of it, they are left vulnerable for enough time that Itachi can capitalize on an opening.  Orochimaru was a Kage candidate and the peer of one of the Hokage, and he was put down by it.

What I find odd is how Genjutsu is always trivialized here despite how effective we've seen it be in most Sharingan user's hands, let alone Itachi's.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Let me explain what happened. Itachi broke her genjutsu. Copied her genjutsu. And used it on her. Kurenai was reacting to her own genjutsu, and knew how to beat it. Kurenai is also the best genjutsu user in Konoha, and thus one of the best in the world. Mei is much worse than Kurenai at handling that situation.
> 
> Itachi also blitzed Kurenai shortly after without genjutsu, so it's not as if he was ever going at her seriously anyway. Kakashi stated shortly afterward that base Itachi was _not_ going all out, or anything close to it. He didn't need a genjutsu to hit Kurenai with a kunai, and in fact flash-stepped her a moment later.



Just to add, we've seen Itachi capitalize on Orochimaru from a longer distance. 
He was just playing with Kurenai, thought it was very clear.


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## Elite Uchiha (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Itachi's the  in history.


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## Big Mom (Feb 28, 2016)

Saru said:


> Stuff




What I don't understand is why you are making Madara Uchiha and Itachi Uchiha out to be equals and why you believe Jinton uses more chakra than Itachi's long ranged ninjutsu. Itachi uses the technique once in each match, yet you claim he can spam it long enough until Onoki runs out of chakra losing Jinton? And please, please show me how Itachi can dodge the Jinton. 

Also, stop referencing Madara defeating Onoki and Muu, we never saw that fight, stop making assumptions.


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> What I don't understand is why you are making Madara Uchiha and Itachi Uchiha out to be equals and why you believe Jinton uses more chakra than Itachi's long ranged ninjutsu.




Once again, I never once said that Itachi and Madara were equals, and that implication does not follow from them both being able to dodge Jinton. If I said that Madara Uchiha could dodge Itachi's Goukakyuu, and then said that Sakura could do the same, does that imply that Sakura is as fast as Madara? No, it does not.

As for the second part of your question, I believe that Jinton uses more chakra than Itachi's long-range ninjutsu because all evidence suggests that it _does_ use more chakra. Mixing three elements together is more taxing than using one, and this is supported by the scans that I posted of Onoki resorting to Doton after saying that he didn't have enough chakra to use Jinton.




> Itachi uses the technique once in each match, yet you claim he can spam it long enough until Onoki runs out of chakra losing Jinton?




Quote me stating that Itachi could spam long-range ninjutsu. I said that Itachi could use long-range ninjutsu _in addition to_ shurikenjutsu to pressure Onoki, both of which require far less chakra than using Jinton, and neither of these types of jutsu will put a strain on Itachi's reserves. Those techniques require _far_ less chakra than Tskuyomi, Amaterasu, or Susano'o, and since Itachi will not be using those Mangekyou techniques wastefully here as he did against Sasuke (Itachi will need to use Amaterasu once at most to get the job done), he will not have issues with his stamina. You have also failed to acknowledge Onoki's own stamina issues such as his poor back, in spite of harping on Itachi's stamina being poorer than Onoki's. Again, Itachi will not need to use the Mangekyou more than _one time_ here, and when he does, it will result in Onoki's defeat.




> And please, please show me how Itachi can dodge the Jinton.




There is a much greater burden on you to prove that Jinton is fast enough to hit Itachi before the latter can evade or interrupt the attack.




> Also, stop referencing Madara defeating Onoki and Muu, we never saw that fight, stop making assumptions.




I'm going to go ahead and say that Muu possessing Jinton at that point is a pretty safe assumption considering that Muu taught Onoki Jinton before he died and that Madara already knew about Onoki's Jinton before it was used on him in the War. 

I find it regretful that you keep reducing my posts to "stuff" and have refused to acknowledge or refute large portions of my responses. That's not going to get anyone anywhere.​


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Mei loses sight of Itachi after the Katon, and uses a suiton, and gets flanked with a clone, and put in a genjutsu, or killed by real Itachi still coming in hot. There are so many possibilities.



Oh bullshit. You don't think A is fast enough to go around her Suiton defense and blindside her before the mist is up, but against Itachi there's a clone in Mei's shit before she can even start the mist. Spare me.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Oh bullshit. You don't think A is fast enough to go around her Suiton defense and blindside her before the mist is up, but against Itachi there's a clone in Mei's shit before she can even start the mist. Spare me.



How about you read my arguments instead of sticking to some shtick no one is talking about. You seem to have a problem with taking points collectively and getting the whole picture from said points, and continue to ignore certain factors. Don't be mad that Itachi is better than Ei at the ninja game. Ei is better at the Cage fighting game and that seems more your lane.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

You're full of shit. You think Itachi is capable of placing a clone behind Mei from 25 meters away before she can blanket the field in mist, despite her being fast enough to blind A at a comparable distance. It's a blatant double standard.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You're full of shit. You think Itachi is capable of placing a clone behind Mei from 25 meters away before she can blanket the field in mist, despite her being fast enough to blind A at a comparable distance. It's a blatant double standard.


No it's not. You just refuse to listen to my explicit arguments, and instead of countering them, resort to one liners, and baseless claims. I explained up and down why Itachi can do what he can do vs Mei and gave you all the arguments you could ever need.

It isn't a fucking 40 yard dash, Itachi's reasons for being able to do so vary from speed only which is Ei's only fucking factor here.

Ei cannot get behind Bee from 15 - 20m and Ei cannot get within 5m of Bee without Bee noticing just like Itachi did both times because of his arsenal. Why is that Huh? Answer me that. Why was Itachi able to use momentary LOS blocks to shadow Bee, and get in the air right in front of him within 5m without him noticing? I want to know.


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You're full of shit. You think Itachi is capable of placing a clone behind Mei from 25 meters away before she can blanket the field in mist, despite her being fast enough to blind A at a comparable distance. It's a blatant double standard.




I'm think what Dr. White is saying is that A can't blitz Mei from [x] meters, but Itachi can't blitz Mei from [x] meters either. That's why he needs to use other distractions (long-range ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc) _in combination with_ his speed in order to prevent Mei from using Hidden Mist. 

Although personally I think Mei loses to A at all ranges.​


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## Sadgoob (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky's saying that no attack from Itachi (excluding genjutsu) should reach Mei before v1 A does. If Mei's first move is to start the Mist against both, then she should get it off against Itachi *if* she does against A. I don't think Rocky has any doubts that Itachi could get there in time, but he doesn't doubt that A could either.

I think Dr. White is using the instance with Darui and Sasuke, with Sasuke being comparable to v1 A, to show that A can be stopped with a suiton if he charges in linearly, and is arguing that Itachi's reaction would be better than A/Sasuke because of his precog feat against Sage Kabuto and general better-than-Sasuke-nes.​


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Rocky's saying that no attack from Itachi (excluding genjutsu) should reach Mei before v1 A does. If Mei's first move is to start the Mist against both, then she should get it off against Itachi *if* she does against A. I don't think Rocky has any doubts that Itachi could get there in time, but he doesn't doubt that A could either.
> ​




Except that isn't what I am arguing. I'm arguing that Itachi can tie her up and distract her in ways Ei can't allowing him to get to her before the mist is thwarted. Ei would obviously get there before Itachi if it was a simple A to B contest, but at 35m it isn't like that, and Mei should be able to react to both. It's the conditions about her reactions and the opponents ability to counter effectively that give ITachi the edge.​


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Rocky's saying that no attack from Itachi (excluding genjutsu) should reach Mei before v1 A does. If Mei's first move is to start the Mist against both, then she should get it off against Itachi *if* she does against A. I don't think Rocky has any doubts that Itachi could get there in time, but he doesn't doubt that A could either.




The thing is, Mei could also be using Futton against A, and without explicit knowledge (i.e. hand seals), A probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two. In that instance, if Itachi uses Goukakyuu, Mei has no choice but to counter with Suiton or dodge. If Mei uses Futton against A, it doesn't matter if he travels faster than Itachi's Goukakyuu, because when he reaches her, he will be met with a wall of corrosive mist. That's the only scenario in which I can't envision A charging through the mist and attacking Mei--if the threat of Futton is present.​


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I'm arguing that Itachi can tie her up and distract her in ways Ei can't allowing him to get to her before the mist is thwarted.



If A cannot get there, _neither can Itachi._

Strat is correct on where I stand in regards to Itachi vs. Mei. It's a stomp. He may be outmatched elementally, but she is _brutally_ inferior in close combat, weapon techniques, genjutsu, and intellect. Forget the Mangekyō. Your Mei, Dr. White, can be hiding in mist before a former "world's fastest man" can get to her. If she were able to mist-hide that quickly, then Itachi cannot stop her from mist-hiding. If Mei goes Suiton -> Mist against A, and it works, then Suiton -> Mist is going to work against Itachi. 

For some reason, you think an Itachi clone can run around a Suiton _that can stop Raikage in his tracks_ and blindside Mei. I think that _both_ Raikage and Itachi are fast enough to run around a Suiton and blindside her before she finishes spreading mist. Itachi would probably dodge the Suiton while sending a clone behind her while her vision is blocked by her own water, while Raikage would just speed out of the chaos and blindside her like he did Jūgo.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Saru said:


> If Mei uses Futton against A, it doesn't matter if he travels faster than Itachi's Goukakyuu, because when he reaches her, he will be met with a wall of corrosive mist.



It isn't a shield. A would sprint into it, punch Mei in the face, and carry her out of it and into the nearest wall, all in under a second. He wouldn't be exposed to it long enough to receive any major injuries. It's fucking Raikage. He's harder to kill than 99% of the cast.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> If A cannot get there, _neither can Itachi._


False. Ei does not have a diverse arsenal for the 80th time.



> Your Mei, Dr. White, can be hiding in mist before a former "world's fastest man" can get to her.


Ei is worlds fastest man overall. V1 can't blitz Mei from that distance and his arsenal is extremely exploitable with knowledge if he doesn't go V2 off the bat. Itachi has multiple way to circumvent the defense of Mei and predict/counter them on the fly much faster than Ei along with his versatility.



> If she were able to mist-hide that quickly, then Itachi cannot stop her from mist-hiding. If Mei goes Suiton -> Mist against A, and it works, then Suiton -> Mist is going to work against Itachi.


False. Itachi can make her deal with things that Ei cannot, and add things to his advance on her that Ei cannot. Along with perceptual/intellectual advantages he has, I see Itachi doing better. 


> For some reason, you think an Itachi clone can run around a Suiton _that can stop Raikage in his tracks_ and blindside Mei.


- Itachi's casting speed > V1 blitz speed based on dirct 3 tomoe comparison.
- Itachi has speed somewhat comparable to v1 Ei himself.
- Itachi has bushins, elementals, Weapon skills and genjutsu to aid in this, in which he can cast in succession vs Mei to thwart her ability to defend. Ei does not.
- Itachi has sharingan to read and pre empt her seals, along with Kabuto "true vision" hype. Which Ei does not have.



> I think that _both_ Raikage and Itachi are fast enough to run around a Suiton


It's too wide for Ei Imo. If this was 10 or 20 meters, than I think Ei could give her the mifune treatment, but I see Ei getting stopped similar to Sasuke vs darui given his approach to fighting, unlike Itachi's divert then attack style.


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## Saru (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It isn't a shield. A would sprint into it, punch Mei in the face, and carry her out of it and into the nearest wall, all in under a second. He wouldn't be exposed to it long enough to receive any major injuries. It's fucking Raikage. He's harder to kill than 99% of the cast.




Eh, Futton's limits haven't really been tested, but seeing as how it didn't seep right through Susano'o (which is a chakra construct not unlike A's RCM), I agree with you. I'm just pointing out that it can be argued that Futton makes Mei a threat to A from "x" meters.​


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## Bringer (Feb 28, 2016)

*Tsunade*

Amaratsu low difs Tsunade. Tsunade can't dodge amaratsu, and since Itachi has full knowledge there's no conceivable possibility of Tsunade using Byakogou to surprise Itachi and make the match a double death draw. What probably happens is Tsunade summons Katsuyu in front of her to block LOS. Regardless, that would just prevent the inevitable. Itachi's goal isn't to beat Katsuyu, but to beat Tsunade. She eventually gets hit by ama, or gets sealed by his sword. I mean if she wants to be a OOC dick she can just turtle in Katsuyu, and have Katsuyu turn into hundreds of thousands body sized clones, and be secretly hidden in one of the Katsuyu's but again just prolonging the inevitable. 

*Mei*

Hidden mist counters his visual sharingan genjutsu and amaratsu. Mei isn't getting blitzed. Hidden mist + Boil release fucks Itachi hard. Itachi is the stronger shinobi, but I think Mei is simply a bad match up imo.  His only way of winning is somehow outlasting her via Susanoo and attrition, but I think Mei would win a battle of attrition.

*Ei*

Ei can't ever break through Rib cage Susanoo, let alone any of the later stages of Susanoo. For that reason alone Ei can't win this. On the other hand Itachi is gonna have a shitty time trying to land a hit on Ei. I mean... I guess Ei wins if this somehow turns to a battle of attrition where Ei does a really OOC thing and just keeps a safe distance until Susanoo drains Itachi to the point where he can't keep it up, but I can't see it going like that. It's not a matter of if Itachi lands ama or genjutsu, it's a matter of when. 

*Gaara* 

I think Gaara has the tools to beat Itachi. He has flight, is a ranged fighter, has good defense, can block LOS/keep a distance and fight at the same time. Sadly he isn't bypassing amaratsu. Again, I guess Gaara could make this a battle of attrition and outlast Itachi by staying a safe distance in the sky and attacking at a range until Itachi can't turtle in Susanoo anymore, though if Gaara ever goes too far Itachi can just drop Susanoo and wait for Gaara to come closer again. I do think Gaara in a desert would take this, but this isn't the case. Itachi wins. 

*Onoki*

With terrain control, LOS blocking doton, flight, and an attack that ignores Susanoo defense I give this to Onoki. 



So Itachi wins 3/5

From least to most difficult I'd say

Tsunade
Ei/Gaara
Onoki/Mei


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi can make her deal with things that Ei cannot, and add things to his advance on her that Ei cannot.



Mei doesn't actually have to "deal" with any of Itachi's techniques because her giant Suiton would block anything he tried. Then she'd hide in her mist.

Shunshin? Mei opens with giant Suiton that is too wide for Itachi to go around and then puts up the mist before he closes the distance. 

Katon? Mei opens with giant Suiton that swallows the fire and then puts up the mist before he closes the distance. 

Genjutsu? Distance is too far.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Mei doesn't actually have to "deal" with any of Itachi's techniques because her giant Suiton would block anything he tried. Then she'd hide in her mist.


Yes she does. Itachi created a clone while making a one seal Katon and hid in the Forest so he could flank Bee and Naruto, without Bee knowing. First thing she will see is the KAton almost hitting her given the speed of his casting, then she will use her own fast casting to drown it out. Itachi is a very good katon user though so his fireball should displace a good amount of water via vaping it before it's drowned. All this LOS blocking and the elemental clash gives Itachi and the clone openings to fuck her before she can cast mist safely and effectively.



> Shunshin? Mei opens with giant Suiton that is too wide for Itachi to go around and then puts up the mist before he closes the distance.


Until she hits a clone. Itachi literally feints sharingan users and sage sensors right in front of their faces for breakfast. She goes to cast mist thinking she nailed him, and gets flanked.



> Katon? Mei opens with giant Suiton that swallows the fire and then puts up the mist before he closes the distance.


See above. 



> Genjutsu? Distance is too far.


Not at all. Itachi can cast outside of the range of sensors even, given that's how they thought the alliance were turning on eachother. Itachi controlling multiple people from different camps from outside of sensor range. It was just too vast a distance overall for it to be possible on such short notice.

Both shinkarasu and ephemeral are non eye contact ranged genjutsu.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Until she hits a clone. Itachi literally feints sharingan users and sage sensors right in front of their faces for breakfast. She goes to cast mist thinking she nailed him, and gets flanked.



Um.

If her walls of water are too wide for the Raikage to go around before Mei makes mist, then how would Itachi get around it before Mei makes mist? Leaving a clone behind to get hit doesn't make Mei's Suiton easier to get around.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Um.
> 
> If her walls of water are too wide for the Raikage to go around before Mei makes mist, then how would Itachi get around it before Mei makes mist? Leaving a clone behind to get hit doesn't make Mei's Suiton easier to get around.



Because Itachi will have substituted to a blind spot after reading her seals/battle plan, or (if used after a katon) is most likely already going to use this tactic off bat after launching a Katon, suiton, etc what have you.

Like how did Itachi get into Kabuto's blind spot when he has omnidirectional nature sensing? How did he do it to Sasuke mid shuriken battle in a confined room when he was in front of him the whole time. Because Itachi will already be in flanking posiiton, it's highly unlikely he's going to have to bypass a large portion of the suiton given that she'll be aiming the suiton at the clone. 

Ei is always one target, with no LOS blockers, or deceptive jutsu like genjutsu, crows, etc.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> The 5M Chidori Eiso that Deidara referred to vs. the quite notably longer CS2 Chidori Eiso.  It would really help _not_ to conveniently chop out manga panels and post the entire page so that people can see what Deidara was referring to.  Deidara never called the second Chidori Eiso linked above 5 meters long - it was in reference to the first.  Trying to marry the two scans as if they happened on the same page is intentionally misleading.
> 
> Over the , who stands at 5.84 feet (or 1.78 meters), here is Gokakyu being used at approximately 11 meters.
> 
> Furthermore, it's seen burning a solid distance _behind_ Killer Bee and Naruto, despite Samehada absorbing half the attack.


Again thinking Kishimoto takes into consideration the height of the characters is pretty ridiculous imo. And again even if we ignore the Second Chidori Eisou used against Deidara's Dragon, even though literally nothing says it's range extended whatsoever, and an entirely different reason for it landing was cited, the other instances of Chidori Eisou still show it extending to a length that was much greater than any of the cited instances of Grand-Fireball. Combined that with the stated range of Grand-Fireball in the DB, and I don't see very good evidence off Grand-Fireball crossing more than 5m, let alone 25m.

At best you can argue Kishimoto's perception of 5m is faulty, which I wouldn't be opposed to, but when I considered ranges, I consider them within the context of the manga. I.E. if Kishimoto cites something as Short-Range, it's not going to be very effective at Long-Range.



Itachі said:


> yooo
> 
> was looking at a zabuza vs itachi thread and found a post from turrin, what a coinkidink


It's post like these that make me loose respect for someone, as clearly your twisting my words. Because A)Zabuza is not Mei, and B)I said I believe Itachi would beat Mei albeit with High Diff, which is basically similar to my sentiment of how he'd beat Zabuza, except w/ more diff because Zabuza is weaker than Mei.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Because Itachi will have substituted to a blind spot after reading her seals/battle plan.



I am not understanding your train of thought.

Itachi opens with grand fireball. Mei opens with water wall. Because Itachi is faster, he was also able to create a clone. So now we've got two Itachis standing behind a fireball heading towards a giant wall of water. Itachi cannot see Mei and Mei cannot see Itachi. The clone is going to stay behind to get hit. Now, if that water wall is too wide for Raikage to go around before Mei can establish mist, then how would the real Itachi get around that same water wall and into Mei's blindspot before she established the mist?


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 28, 2016)

I still can't believe people think that Itachi would lose to Mei, that shit is just ridiculous. Like, is this thread really up to almost 200 posts. 

Shit.

Think about that for a minute. 

You wouldn't be making those claims against Jiraiya, whatsoever. I guess that's the difference between some, at least be objective, people just auto assume that genjutsu is shit and wouldn't work in battle anyway because they are kage, when it's pretty much proven that some of them are shit-tier in other categories. 

I mean, people forget that Itachi has an active wind element in his arsenal, he hasn't shown it sure, but I suppose at the very least it's mentioned in the databook. That alone should be enough to disperse the fog, should he need to.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi is going to cast first because she is faster, and she will be forced to deal with it.


What is Itachi casting at her, his Long-Range arsenal is extremely limited.



> Mei getting close to Itachi who can bring up susanoo in a flash, genjutsu her, and clone feint her is gonna end in her death Imo. Even Kakashi was fending off and protecting team 7 in the mist.


If Itachi is using Susano'o, Genjutsu, and Clone Feints in tandem to beat Mei, I consider that High-Diff.




> Gaara is never going to escape Itachi. Especially not when Itachi has full.


There is nothing Itachi can do at 25m that has good odds of prevent him from escaping, considering Gaara's defensive prowess.



> I'm positive that if Itachi could ask you, his exact sentiment would be


Kimi is an extremely fast and skillful Taijutsu fighter, more skillful in Taijutsu than Itachi in-fact, and his speed is further enhanced by CS. So Kimi isn't far off from Itachi in movement speed, and Gaara was easily keeping up w/ the guy in PI. So to say Itachi is going to treat War-Arc Gaara's sand like Rock-Lee, is pretty ridiculous, as I have doubts Itachi could even do that to SRA-Gaara. 



> He intercepted a fight between two others. Not at all the same as dodging Amaterasu or Ei mid fight.


I never said it was, but considering how fast both attacks were, and how Gaara intercepted at thee last second, it still a very impressive speed feat from his Gourd Sand.



> Uhm, Itachi moving faster Killer Bee, outweaving sharingan pre cog, and bushin feinting sharingan and Sage sensing all point that outcome.


Itachi didn't outmaneuver B, he was pushed back by B in CQC. 

Fast-Hand-seals is irrelevant here as most of Gaara's Jutsu don't require seals, so even if Itachi can do his seals in a fraction of a second his Jutsu casting is still going to be slower than someone who requires no seals. 

He Bushin Feinting isn't a measure of speed, anyone can Bushin Feint anyone despite speed, depending on how the Bushin are utilized. Naruto has proven that again and again throughout the series. 

Itachi could certainly Bushin Feint Gaara, but than what, it's not like it magically allows him to land a blow, he still needs to get past Gaara's defenses and actually reach Gaara w/ his attack.



> Lmao Itachi cast a fireball faster than Gaara can read, and blocks it with sand. LOS is blocked and "Itachi" attacks from periphery (all before Gaara can even think about escaping) Gaara crushes it. Crow Clone. Shinkarasu. GG Gaara.


Something Gaara will undoubtably expect w/ full knowledge and therefore rely on a muti-directional defense like Suna Tama, to prevent being feinted like that.



> Itachi summoned crows that successfully held up Susanoo Sasuke. Kakuzu was fucking A distracted by crows. They literally just have to make eye contact with Gaara and can flock him all day.


Really did I just read you think crows really held their own in combat against Susano'o Sasuke. Just stop. The crows held Sasuke up by blocking his LOS, and allowing Itachi to escape. Same thing w/ Kakuzu. They acted as a distraction. But were not talking a distraction here, your saying somehow they would defeat Gaara, which seems like a really huge reach to me.



> Except gaara has no way of relying on thrid eye with signing a 100% death contract.


Why?



> Full knowledge is he knows the ins and outs of Itachi's stats, and abiltiies. Not the exact metrics of his capabilities. Talk about reaching. Itachi can also lure him out, or idk scale the huge ass wall Sasuke did.


No Full knowledge is knowing everything about the fighter, as in there speed and physical strength, and from there Gaara can figure out that the amount of range he needs to keep to prevent Itachi from reaching him by performing a leaping attack.



> This all granting Gaara isn't overwhelmed in the first 5 seconds of the fight.


Considering Gaara wasn't overwhelmed against 5 Madara clones all capable of MS level techs in the first 5 seconds of his fight against them, that really is not granting Gaara, whose facing Itachi under extremely beneficial circumstance, anything more than the respect that solid Kage class character deserves.



> He can fight with the Third eye. He cannot fight relying on the third eye which is what he would have to do to protect himself/ pose any threat at all while avoiding Genjutsu.


Dude Gaara uses a Jutsu called Suna Tama frequently, it's one of his gotos and is still able to fight perfectly fine while rely on third eye, so no that simply does not add up. Gaara also doesn't need to rely completely on Third eye, he can also create Suna Bushin now, has his Sand detection, and can use Massive AOE techniques that don't rely on precision to bridge any gaps. 

So please explain to me why he can't fight while relying on these things.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2016)

Turrin. 

Did you really just admit to having doubts about Itachi being able to shit on SRA Gaara's sand with speed? So Exams Gaara gets beat up by Exams Sasuke, and few months later Gaara can keep up with Itachi?

...what the fuck?


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I am not understanding your train of thought.


In regards to the above, I was assuming we were talking about if Itachi just tried ti straight shushin at her without using genjutsu or ninjutsu for deceit. Then he would opt for a Kabuto style, or Killber Bee style clone feint.



> Itachi opens with grand fireball. Mei opens with water wall.


Yes. But also realize by the time Mei goes to cast, Itachi is already onto the next move as his hand speed and reactions are > given sharingan.



> Because Itachi is faster, he was also able to create a clone. So now we've got two Itachis standing behind a fireball heading towards a giant wall of water.


See this is the disconnect. Itachi isn't gonna be sitting next to his clone. Either Itachi or the clone is going to post up to the left or right at speeds faster than KB or Kabuto can perceive, and give Mei the impression that he's still in his original positon. From there he can wait for the clone ti blitz and utilize genjutsu or just feint ambush her. Or have the clone feint ambush her (if he chose to have the clone flank) only to blitz her from the original position. 



> Itachi cannot see Mei and Mei cannot see Itachi. The clone is going to stay behind to get hit. Now, if that water wall is too wide for Raikage to go around before Mei can establish mist, then how would the real Itachi get around that same water wall and into Mei's blindspot before she established the mist?


A.) Itachi's jutsu execution speed is better. This is just a fact I assume we skip discussion over this.
B.) Itachi isn't coming straight at Mei from A to B. He's circumventing being overt about using his speed advantages in order to ambush her, or counter her chess style. Ei is coming straight at Mei. She knows there is no clone fuckery, she knows ei is going to rely solely on speed.

Unlike you I don't believe Ei can just lol turn on a dime, that's why he can't side step the suiton. Itachi isn't taking that route, and can feigning his intentions unlike Ei in order to successfully get to her before the mist is cast, or as it's cast, in which case he still works her.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Turrin.
> 
> Did you really just admit to having doubts about Itachi being able to shit on SRA Gaara's sand with speed? So Exams Gaara gets beat up by Exams Sasuke, and few months later Gaara can keep up with Itachi?
> 
> ...what the fuck?


Honestly it's posts like these that make me think that people don't even read the manga or hell any manga in this genre. Like seriously dude, did we not see Naruto go from a 3.5 in speed to being one of the fastest characters in SM, in a matter of like 2 Weeks or become a fucking Demi-God in a matter of days. It's a Shonen Manga, this shit happens all the time, really not something you should be shocked about.

And yes I have my doubts, because Kimi is better than Itachi at Taijutsu and the gap in speed between them isn't even as steep as the gap between Kakashi and Hidan (or Hidan and Asuma, Or insert countless other examples here), who ended up being relatively even speed wise practically speaking. And SRA Gaara's Gourd Sand kept up w/ Kimi no problem.


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## Cognitios (Feb 29, 2016)

*Ei*
Ei isn't breaking Ribcage Susanoo which Itachi can get up from the getgo. Ei is given a genjutsu of some sort to slow him down and Ama'd. It might take a time or two depending on how many limbs he cuts off.
*
Mei*
Others have pointed out her mist being a problem but I think Itachi can put up Susanoo and blitz Mei with the Acid up (it'd be melting Susanoo but it wouldn't touch itachi before he genjtusu's or stabs Mei). Mei's only defense is her Acid and I think Itachi can just wait her out on that front. I think Sharingan can see through it or at least his sensing abilities can and he'd be able to Ama sniper her.

*Tsunade*
Tsunade can't touch Itachi in CQC, his sharingan precog and speed is a tier above hers. Amterasu or Genjutsu beat her pretty hard and Katsuya is sealed with Totsuka.

*Gaara*
Gaara can't counter Amaterasu. Itachi can evade Gaara's gourd sand for a bit IMO and all he needs is to land an Amaterasu or a small genjutsu and it's over.

*Onoki*
Onoki's Jinton is countered by Yata Mirror IMO. A single Ama is all it takes but Onoki's doton might prove to be a problem. I don't see Onoki countering Amaterasu though.


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## TobiramaSS (Feb 29, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Deidara, Konan, Bee, Danzo, Orochimaru, and 4th Raikage have all fallen to prey to the Sharingan's genjutsu.



Except for the Ay (whom I already mentioned), none of them are Kage.
So you fail to disprove my original point.


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## TobiramaSS (Feb 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> nope      .


Wow, the dude just spent his valuable time to write all that and all you can reply with is nope.
I knew Itachi fanboys were biased but I had no idea they were so blatantly disrespectful... smh.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Turrin.
> 
> Did you really just admit to having doubts about Itachi being able to shit on SRA Gaara's sand with speed? So Exams Gaara gets beat up by Exams Sasuke, and few months later Gaara can keep up with Itachi?
> 
> ...what the fuck?



And this surprises you ? 

Have you not read any of this guys posts in Itachi threads lol.

He has said more ridiculous shit believe me.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 29, 2016)

In order of difficulty

Tsunade
She can't deal with the mangekyou techniques imo. She can escape from battle inside Katsuya if she wanted to though. She can't beat tsukiyomi/amaterasu/Totsuka head to head though and she should know this with full knowledge so I'm not even sure what she'd opt for IC. She's not the weakest but Itachi's a walking counter.
Itachi low diff.

Mei
She probably uses a mist, Itachi substitutes himself, then when she attacks the clone he blindsinds her with a mangekyou technique.
or

They do a basic exchange. If a series of attacks like what happened vs. Killer Bee takes place:[1][2][3][4] 
The disparity in movement speed and jutsu execution speed would get Mei killed.
Itachi low diff

Itachi vs Onoki
Onoki has the tools to drag this out with doton tajuu kage bushin and aerial flight. If Onoki flies out of Itachi's Amaterasu/Totsuka range then I'd argue he's too far away to accurately hit a fast target like Itachi with a linear, charge-up predictable attack like Jinton though. Onoki could just leave with flight. 

If they engage and Onoki keeps staying out of Itachi's range then Itachi's eventually going to circumvent the flight advantage by sending a crow imbued with mangekyou sharingan fuinjutsu to shoot Onoki down[][2].
Itachi mid diff

Itachi vs Ei 
Ei's a hard match with full knowledge out the gate. Without it I think genjutsu's a cost effective way of Itachi beating him through trickery and layering  more powerful genjutsu onto second hand ensnaring methods(crow, finger).

With full knowledge Ei'll become very adept at evading it. I think Itachi will eventually outsmart him more times than not before running out of steam but it could go either way. Without knowledge of the second hand genjutsu methods Itachi takes it pretty quickly though imo.  
High or loses
Gaara
If Gaara flies away and cocoons in a dome there's little Itachi can do, which would be his best move with full knowledge. Stay airborne, cocoon, grind sand and oneshot.

I don't believe Gaara can pull someone out of Susano'o without Onoki's help and if he tries to fight Itachi head on he gets outsped and mowed down worst than Joki Boy was doing. I think Gaara benefits the most from full knowledge.
loses


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## Itachі (Feb 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> It's post like these that make me loose respect for someone, as clearly your twisting my words. Because A)Zabuza is not Mei, and B)I said I believe Itachi would beat Mei albeit with High Diff, which is basically similar to my sentiment of how he'd beat Zabuza, except w/ more diff because Zabuza is weaker than Mei.



maybe you should try to stop thinking that everybody's out to get you m8 

i didn't imply anything or try to twist your words, i literally just posted something which i thought was relevant; basically i don't think the mist is such a large factor


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## Dr. White (Feb 29, 2016)

>Itachi
>Zabuza
>High diff


Turrin said:


> Honestly it's posts like these that make me think that people don't even read the manga or hell any manga in this genre.







UnjustNation said:


> Wow, the dude just spent his valuable time to write all that and all you can reply with is nope.
> I knew Itachi fanboys were biased but I had no idea they were so blatantly disrespectful... smh.


It's called life. I didn't agree with his post and framed it in the most succinct manner I could. I don't think you generalizing a fanbase is any better doe


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## Icegaze (Feb 29, 2016)

I get genjutsu is hax as hell but I just want to ask can't Mei fight itachi without looking at his eyes off the bat 

Which leaves finger genjutsu which some itachi fans don't believe would actually put Mei to sleep 

Onoki off the bat told fodders not to look at Madara eyes , naruto was able to enjoy a tactic as well to avoid eye contact which was countered by itachi finger genjutsu 

I only ask to use feats since so far when finger genjutsu has been used naruto seemed to be aware of it quite quickly . Considering the idea was to put naruto to sleep if itachi could have made it less obvious won't he have ?

I honestly only remember 2 of the 10 or so times genjutsu was used that the victim wasn't made aware of it quickly 

I think it really would depend on what distance itachi uses genjutsu here . I don't think he is going to blink and Mei is going to drop like some portray it


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## Saru (Feb 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> And yes I have my doubts, because Kimi is better than Itachi at Taijutsu




That has precisely nothing to do with movement speed.




> and the gap in speed between them isn't even as steep as the gap between Kakashi and Hidan (or Hidan and Asuma, Or insert countless other examples here), who ended up being relatively even speed wise practically speaking. And SRA Gaara's Gourd Sand kept up w/ Kimi no problem.




Did I miss something? Who has Kimimaro fought for you to be able to claim that he's as fast as Itachi? _Besides_ SRA Gaara, I mean.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 29, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I get genjutsu is hax as hell but I just want to ask can't Mei fight itachi without looking at his eyes off the bat


Tank the hit

Its not easy unless you trained for it.



> Which leaves finger genjutsu which some itachi fans don't believe would actually put Mei to sleep


It doesn't have to, all it needs to do is to keep her preoccupied for a second or two until Itachi closes in and stabs her in the throat. 
B has the best defense against genjutsu and yet he was able to escape by the skin of his teeth. Replace him with anyone else who isn't a perfect Jin and they get hit by the shuriken before they can dispell the genjutsu.



> Onoki off the bat told fodders not to look at Madara eyes , naruto was able to enjoy a tactic as well to avoid eye contact which was countered by itachi finger genjutsu


It is probably different facing someone 1v1 in CQC while avoiding eye contact and facing that individual with an army behind your back.
Again, refer to the scan I posted above.



> I only ask to use feats since so far when finger genjutsu has been used naruto seemed to be aware of it quite quickly . Considering the idea was to put naruto to sleep if itachi could have made it less obvious won't he have ?


Naruto resisted it and Itachi still labeled it as "weak."
He immediately switched strategy and started breaking Naruto's will power and Naruto was about to cry when his friends bailed him out, a second more and he would break.



> I honestly only remember 2 of the 10 or so times genjutsu was used that the victim wasn't made aware of it quickly


Thats irrelevant as we know that Itachi and Sasuke are both capable of creating a realistic genjutsu.
Danzo didn't realize he was under Sasuke's genjutsu until it was too late.



> I think it really would depend on what distance itachi uses genjutsu here . I don't think he is going to blink and Mei is going to drop like some portray it



Thats what would happen to B if he didn't have Hachibee inside him.

Itachi also has crow genjutsu that he can employ if by a miracle Mei somewhat manages to effectively fight while avoiding Itachi's eyes and fingers.


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## Turrin (Feb 29, 2016)

Saru said:


> That has precisely nothing to do with movement speed.​


Yes it does. Learning a specific Taijutsu style can allow someone to move faster than there movement speed otherwise allows them to, albeit it consume stamina quickly to move that way. This was very clearly shown when Sasuke was able to match unweighted Lee's speed, by copying and training with Lee's Taijutsu style between the Chunin Pre-lims and Finals:
Tank the hit

Despite the fact that Sasuke's movement speed and reflexes were inferior to Lee's (4 vs 3).

Tsunade and Sakura are also able to move quicker and react faster, due to spending time training in Taijutsu, which allows them to predict the enemies movements:
Tank the hit
Tank the hit
Tank the hit

This enabled Sakura to avoid attacks from Sasori's Satetsu that far exceeded her movement speed. And probably is what allowed Tsunade to be competitive against Madara's Susano'o clones despite her movement speed being only a (3.5). 

So yes a master of Taijutsu is able to move much better and therefore execute moves quick and react faster. And Kimi has that edge over Itachi.



> Did I miss something? Who has Kimimaro fought for you to be able to claim that he's as fast as Itachi? Besides SRA Gaara, I mean.


He doesn't have to have fought anyone the DB stats tell us that his speed is 4.5, before CS, and CS enhances Speed, and Kimi can use CS better than most. Than he has better Taijutsu than Itachi (5 > 4.5). 

And I didn't say he was as fast as Itachi, so that's a strawman. I said any gap is between the two should be tremendous enough where it's making a big difference, and allowing one to blitz an enemy the other could not + 3 Years of Growth, I.E. SRA-Gaara to Kages-Arc Gaara.


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## Saru (Feb 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yes it does. Learning a specific Taijutsu style can allow someone to move faster than there movement speed otherwise allows them to, albeit it consume stamina quickly to move that way. This was very clearly shown when Sasuke was able to match unweighted Lee's speed, by copying and training with Lee's Taijutsu style between the Chunin Pre-lims and Finals:
> Tank the hit
> 
> Despite the fact that Sasuke's movement speed and reflexes were inferior to Lee's (4 vs 3).
> ...




Those scans are great, and it's true that the Cursed Seal increases the user's speed, but training =/= taijutsu skill =/= speed. Those are three separate things. Sasuke got faster because he _trained_ to get faster. There's a difference between training to acquire skill and already having that skill. Tsunade has a 5 in taijutsu, but is she a speedster? No. Sakura said that she was explicitly trained to evade as a _*medical ninja*_, so I don't know what you're bringing her up for. Your conclusion doesn't follow from the panels or character examples you've provided. Being a taijutsu expert does not inherently make that person fast, and it definitely doesn't make them inherently as fast as someone like Itachi.

You also left out this relevant statement.




*Gai:* _"So that's why you only trained in taijutsu... *And* had him greatly increase his speed... "_

Sasuke improved in two areas. Taijutsu _*and*_ speed, which are not the same thing.

Kimimaro has no hype or feats to suggest that he's anywhere _near_ Itachi (who is a notable speedster) in terms of speed, so yes, some sort of additional evidence is necessary if want to make such a claim and be taken seriously.​


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## Turrin (Feb 29, 2016)

Saru said:


> Those scans are great, and it's true that the Cursed Seal increases the user's speed, but training =/= taijutsu skill =/= speed. Those are three separate things. Sasuke got faster because he _trained_ to get faster]​



The panel I posted says it all, Sasuke got faster by copying and training in Taijutsu. Not because he trained his movement speed, which was still inferior to Lee's, yet he could sustain Lee's speed for a period of time due specifically to his Taijutsu training.



> Tsunade has a 5 in taijutsu, but is she a speedster?


Define Speedster. Is She Ei level, of course not, but she is can probably competently keep up w/ most High Tiers, despite her speed stat being inferior to most of them, due specifically to her Taijutsu skill. Again I'll cite her being able to maneuver around a Susano'o wielding madara clone and taking him from behind w/ an Okasho hit. That's not something someone w/ a 3.5 in speed should be capable off, but Tsunade was able to do it; and it stands to reason that this was due to her Taijutsu mastery.



> akura said that she was explicitly trained to evade as a medical ninja, so I don't know what you're bringing her up for. Your conclusion doesn't follow from the panels or character examples you've provided. Being a taijutsu expert does not inherently make that person fast, and it definitely doesn't make them inherently as fast as someone like Itachi.


The Training was not to evade just medical Ninja, the training was in Taijutsu in general and evasion in general. That's why Sakura was able to apply said training to evade Sasori's puppet attacks, which were otherwise much faster than her normal movement speed.



> Gai: "So that's why you only trained in taijutsu... And had him greatly increase his speed... "
> 
> Sasuke improved in two areas. Taijutsu and speed, which are not the same thing.


Read that again bro. Gai specifically credits the speed increase to Sasuke only training in Taijtusu. So Sasuke did not train his movement speed, he simply trained in Taijutsu and learning Lee's Taijutsu in turn greatly increased his speed. 

Or to put it another way he didn't train in Speed and Taijutsu, he trained in only Taijutsu which increased his speed.

Which is exactly what the stats reflect, as Sasuke's movement and reflexes speed are still bellow Lee's, yet he is able to move as quickly as Lee, due to learning the same Taijutsu moves.



> Kimimaro has no hype or feats to suggest that he's anywhere near Itachi (who is a notable speedster) in terms of speed, so yes, some sort of additional evidence is necessary if want to make such a claim and be taken seriously.


I already gave you the evidence:

"He doesn't have to have fought anyone the DB stats tell us that his speed is 4.5, before CS, and CS enhances Speed, and Kimi can use CS better than most. Than he has better Taijutsu than Itachi (5 > 4.5)."​


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## Icegaze (Feb 29, 2016)

@Grimm zabuza stratrgy off the bat was to cut off sharingan danger via hidden mist 

I am curious why itachi is assumed to be quicker off the draw at using either genjutus than Mei forming  1 seal for hidden mist

then again asuma and kurenai knew to close their eyes once kakashi warned them. I am wondering why she doesn't start off the bat by closing her eyes and casting mist 

unless ur argument is itachi can shunshin at her quicker than she can make 1 hand seal

its literally, they face off. she closes her eyes, itachi cannot cast genjutsu quicker than her ability to close her eyes

I mean kabuto had the time to put his hood over his eyes and flee quicker than genjutsu could be cast. that has got to take more time than closing one eyes 

am not saying she is to fight blind but she closes her eyes, and then uses hidden mist. from there she has just narrowed the gap between their abilities by restricting itachi to ninjutsu and taijutsu


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## Saru (Feb 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The panel I posted says it all, Sasuke got faster by copying and training in Taijutsu. Not because he trained his movement speed, which was still inferior to Lee's, yet he could sustain Lee's speed for a period of time due specifically to his Taijutsu training.




Gai said that Sasuke improved his taijutsu _*and*_ his speed, which means that _*both*_ of those stats were improved over the course of the Exams. 




> Define Speedster. Is She Ei level, of course not, but she is can probably competently keep up w/ most High Tiers, despite her speed stat being inferior to most of them, due specifically to her Taijutsu skill. Again I'll cite her being able to maneuver around a Susano'o wielding madara clone and taking him from behind w/ an Okasho hit. That's not something someone w/ a 3.5 in speed should be capable off, but Tsunade was able to do it; and it stands to reason that this was due to her Taijutsu mastery.




I'll define speedster in terms of a tier list.

*Notable Speedsters:*

Minato
Tobirama
Naruto (KCM)
A
Madara 

--

Itachi / Gai 
Killer B
Sasuke / Jiraiya (SM)
Kakashi / Obito

--

If you don't see someone's name on this list and they aren't God of Shinobi Tier, then they probably aren't a speedster. All of these people have a wealth of feats and hype to cement their status as speedsters. Kimimaro has not an ounce of either of these things.




> The Training was not to evade just medical Ninja, the training was in Taijutsu in general and evasion in general. That's why Sakura was able to apply said training to evade Sasori's puppet attacks, which were otherwise much faster than her normal movement speed.




That's a strawman. I didn't say that Sakura's training over the timeskip consisted of solely evasion. I wasn't referring to her training as a whole. I was pointing out the fact that Sakura _explicitly stated_ that the reason that she was able to evade Sasori's attacks was because medical ninja are trained to do so, which you neglected in your false equivocation of taijutsu skill and speed. You can't ignore the fact that Sakura was trained to evade and cited it as the reason for being able to, well, _evade_ simply because it weakens your argument.




> Read that again bro. Gai specifically credits the speed increase to Sasuke only training in Taijtusu. So Sasuke did not train his movement speed, he simply trained in Taijutsu and learning Lee's Taijutsu in turn greatly increased his speed. Or to put it another way he didn't train in Speed and Taijutsu, he trained in only Taijutsu which increased his speed. Which is exactly what the stats reflect, as Sasuke's movement and reflexes speed are still bellow Lee's, yet he is able to move as quickly as Lee, due to learning the same Taijutsu moves.




Of course Sasuke's speed increased; he still had room to grow. Both Sasuke's taijutsu skill and his speed increased because both of those areas were still underdeveloped. However, it does not follow from that example that taijutsu skill automatically assumes high speed. There's a distinction to be made between positive correlation, a positive relationship between two things, and causation, an action that produces a certain result. Taijutsu skill is not an action. Training is an action. Only training can have the effect of increasing speed. In Sasuke's case, *training* taijutsu also improved Sasuke's speed. 




> I already gave you the evidence:
> 
> "He doesn't have to have fought anyone the DB stats tell us that his speed is 4.5, before CS, and CS enhances Speed, and Kimi can use CS better than most. Than he has better Taijutsu than Itachi (5 > 4.5)."




Once again, taijutsu skill =/= training =/= speed. If it was, Minato would be taijutsu god.​


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## Clowe (Feb 29, 2016)

10 pages? Oh an Itachi thread... why I'm I not surprised? 

Itachi beats them all 1 on 1, he'll have the most trouble with Ay and especially Ohnoki who can disintegrate Susanoo, but that's a nature transformation so that's something Yata should counter.


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## Turrin (Feb 29, 2016)

Saru said:


> Gai said that Sasuke improved his taijutsu _*and*_ his speed, which means that _*both*_ of those stats were improved over the course of the Exams. ​



No he didn't. He said Sasuke improved his Taijutsu and got faster as result of that. 


And again if Taijutsu doesn't increase speed, I really want to know how Sasuke moved as fast as Lee, despite being inferior in movement speed.



> If you don't see someone's name on this list and they aren't God of Shinobi Tier, then they probably aren't a speedster. All of these people have a wealth of feats and hype to cement their status as speedsters. Kimimaro has not an ounce of either of these things.


Your tiers really make no sense to me. There is no way in hell Gai is not above everyone w/ Gates and if your not counting Gates, there is no way in hell he's above SM-Jiriaya who has SM sensing, Obito who has Kamui, or Killer-B who has V1/V2; unless your not counting these things, in which case I don't see why Sharingan is counted for Uchiha, but ether way I wouldn't consider any of them speedsters w/o these things.

I also don't know why Madara and Ei are on the same tier as characters that have demonstrated directly they are faster than them; Minato/Tobirama w/ Hiraishin and KCM-Naruto w/ Shunshin.

So I really need an explanation for what is being counted here.



> That's a strawman. I didn't say that Sakura's training over the timeskip consisted of solely evasion. I wasn't referring to her training as a whole. I was pointing out the fact that Sakura explicitly stated that the reason that she was able to evade Sasori's attacks was because medical ninja are trained to do so, which you neglected in your false equivocation of taijutsu skill and speed. You can't ignore the fact that Sakura was trained to evade and cited it as the reason for being able to, well, evade simply because it weakens your argument.


Sakura was trained in a Taijutsu style that enhanced her ability to predict the enemies movements, which in turn enhanced he reaction time, allowing to evade attack she otherwise couldn't. How does that not clearly show that Taijutsu skill can enhance character speed?



> Of course Sasuke's speed increased; he still had room to grow. Both Sasuke's taijutsu skill and his speed increased because both of those areas were still underdeveloped. However, it does not follow from that example that taijutsu skill automatically assumes high speed. There's a distinction to be made between positive correlation, a positive relationship between two things, and causation, an action that produces a certain result. Taijutsu skill is not an action. Training is an action. Only training can have the effect of increasing speed. In Sasuke's case, training taijutsu also improved Sasuke's speed.


If that was the case than Sasuke's movement speed would be equal to Lee's, but it isn't (See the Data-Book). Therefore we know that Sasuke's matching Lee's speed was due to him copying Lee's Taijutsu, not his own speed increasing due to training in Taijutsu.



> Once again, taijutsu skill =/= training =/= speed. If it was, Minato would be taijutsu god.


Now this is a real straw man, as I never said that Taijutsu skill is proportional to someone's speed. I said having high mastery of Taijutsu can increase the speed at which a character can perform certain movements. Just like how Itachi's skill in hand-seals allows him to form seals way faster than his normal movement speed.

So i'm not saying Taijutsu is the sole factor like the straw-man your attacking suggests, i'm simply saying it's one facet of a Shinobi's overall speed in combat.

Beyond that, that was not the only evidence I presented, I also presented Kimi's DB Speed Stat (which is 4.5) and the fact that this speed stat is further enhanced by CS. It's the sum total of those three things (4.5 in spd + CS + 5 in Taijutsu), that indicates Kimi shouldn't be far off from Itachi in overall combat speed.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Grimm zabuza stratrgy off the bat was to cut off sharingan danger via hidden mist
> 
> I am curious why itachi is assumed to be quicker off the draw at using either genjutus than Mei forming  1 seal for hidden mist
> 
> ...



You are aware that if she closes her eyes, she can't see anything right ?


How is she going to respond to physical attacks coming from Itachi eyes closed ?

How will she react to Itachi's bunshin feints which sage Kabuto couldn't properly react to ?


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

She is going to close her eyes and use mist then both can't see anything 

Also again she can fight the way zabuza can . No other reason for her to learn hidden mist if the technique puts her at the same disadvantage  it would anyone else 

I am not claiming she wins , just this genjutsu GG argument is that weak stuff I expect from weaker posters not urself 

the only 2 characters who actively tried to not get caught didn't . Base Kabuto and zabuza did not get caught 

Itachi is >>> Kakashi u are free to claim that however it's hardly relevant considering he could genjutsu zabuza with ease 

But couldn't because zabuza took measures against it and off the bat at that


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> She is going to close her eyes and use mist then both can't see anything
> 
> Also again she can fight the way zabuza can . No other reason for her to learn hidden mist if the technique puts her at the same disadvantage  it would anyone else
> 
> ...



Itachi has better feats than Mei when it comes to fighting with little or no vision

Whats your take on that ?


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

Mei has better training fighting with no vision 

What's your take on that 

Am not saying hidden mist leaves itachi helpless 

Very very far from it . Mei would simply prevent the gengetsu GG argument by doing that 

Is what I have claimed thus far 

As for people underrating kurenai genjutsu it's the same rank as gengetsu genjutsu which trolled several 1000's ninja 

So B rank genjutsu has better feats of trapping more people in an illusion than itachi does for example 

Doesn't mean itachi can't replicate such


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 1, 2016)

What does training have anything to do with this ? 

I am just asking a simple question. Whats your take on Itachi having alot better feats than Mei regarding fighting blind or with little vision ?

Because it seems to me that people believe that having the mist around would give Mei some kind of an edge here. Based on feats, I just don't see how.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2016)

Ok what's ur take on itachi fighting blind better than zabuza can or the swordsmen?

Because at the least Mei would be on that level

or do u think he is automatically better than them despite them being the ones hyped for fighting blind


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## Sapherosth (Mar 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ok what's ur take on itachi fighting blind better than zabuza can or the swordsmen?
> 
> Because at the least Mei would be on that level
> 
> or do u think he is automatically better than them despite them being the ones hyped for fighting blind




It's not impossible coming from Itachi who has the ability to read minds. He also stabbed Orochimaru who is dozens of metres away while blind with the susano sword.   He also exchanged shurikens against sasuke while his eyes were blurred and nearly blind.


Hidden Mist ain't doing shit.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2016)

Hidden mist would stop him from using his eyes 

His best assets 

We already saw how sharingan performed against it 

Not well , not well


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ok what's ur take on itachi fighting blind better than zabuza can or the swordsmen?


He has better feats, thats what my take is.



> Because at the least Mei would be on that level


Conjecture.



> or do u think he is automatically better than them despite them being the ones hyped for fighting blind



Not automaticaly. He just has better feats.
Itachi was half blind through out the Sasuke fight and he has shown that he has pinpoint accuracy without the need to rely on his vision.


And you still haven't answered my question.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Hidden mist would stop him from using his eyes
> 
> His best assets
> 
> ...



Kakashi was able to use his eyes well in the mist, Itachi is also a water-user, he could merely dispel the mist.


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## Itachі (Mar 2, 2016)

If that was an option I think Kakashi would have copied Kirigakure no Jutsu and tried it himself.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2016)

Need scans of Kakashi doing such considering all 3 times he faced it in the manga he didn't dispel it 

Kakashi also could not fight adequately in the mist or he won't have used his dogs to track zabuza the second time around 

Or use an alliance sensor to locate zabuza 

What manga are u reading ? It's called naruto not Kakashi , that's the manga I read


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## Sadgoob (Mar 2, 2016)

Itachi makes a clone feint in the mist, and waits to ambush Mei, just like Kakashi did. Mei doesn't use clones like Zabuza. She's fucked.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> If that was an option I think Kakashi would have copied Kirigakure no Jutsu and tried it himself.



Kakashi copied his water clone, I don't see how the mist would be any different. He never used it because he never had a reason to use it. Itachi is a water user just the same as Kakashi with a few less feats. But since they both have the sharingan, they'll be able to copy any of Mei's water techniques. Kakashi did just that to Zabuza.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Mei has better training fighting with no vision



 No she doesn't. Itachi is more experienced in that regard, not to mention that he was an Anbu Captain meaning that he's trained to hone all of his senses.



> Am not saying hidden mist leaves itachi helpless



 It shouldn't. It didn't leave Kakashi helpless against Zabuza. Actually, he managed to preempt and copy Zabuza's seals for his Suiton clone, so it shouldn't make any difference at all.



> Very very far from it . Mei would simply prevent the gengetsu GG argument by doing that



 Nope. Mei can't fight without her eyes closed and even Zabuza was forced to close his eyes while in the mist against Kakashi. She gets Genjutsu'd.


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## Icegaze (Mar 3, 2016)

Why would Mei be able to use hidden mist and not fight with her eyes closed ?


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Why would Mei be able to use hidden mist and not fight with her eyes closed ?



 Because she hasn't shown the ability to do so like Zabuza has through hype and feats.

 The only time she used it was against Madara due to the Rinnegan's increased Field of Vision. Aside from that, she hasn't used it as often has Zabuza has and it's obviously not her main fighting style if she's only used it once, so the likelihood of her being able to fight with her eyes closed is very, very slim.


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## Icegaze (Mar 3, 2016)

So she learnt a technique to make her weaker 

Fodder haku and other swordsmen with no hype or ability to even use hidden mist can fight in the mist but Mei can't 

Ok. Imma just leave u to that brilliant thought process


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So she learnt a technique to make her weaker
> 
> Fodder haku and other swordsmen with no hype or ability to even use hidden mist can fight in the mist but Mei can't
> 
> Ok. Imma just leave u to that brilliant thought process



 The Swordsmen had mastered the silent killing technique and Haku had not. The only feat Haku had done was blocking Lee and Gai's hit which was obviously when the Mist was relatively thin.

 The technique didn't make her weaker as hindering an opponent's eyesight prevents them from seeing her attack and her attack covers such a massive scale that she doesn't really have to see her opponent in the first place.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> *So she learnt a technique to make her weaker *
> 
> Fodder haku and other swordsmen with no hype or ability to even use hidden mist can fight in the mist but Mei can't
> 
> Ok. Imma just leave u to that brilliant thought process


She doesn't have the nose for it


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