# These Kage vs Edo Madara Uchiha



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 5, 2015)

Battlefield: Fourth Division vs Madara
Starting Distance: Same as Canon
Restrictions: None
Knowledge: Manga

Kage

BM Minato (living)
Onoki
Sandaime Raikage
Gengetsu Hozuki (Nidaime Mizukage)
Gaara with Shukaku (outside, not as a Jinchuriki)

Who wins?


----------



## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

Minato solos.

Even to think that BM Minato would need those to help is disgraceful. 

His beloved absorbing would work against him here lol chakra link.
His PS's attacks get blocked by Kurama's tails. 
Minato is already a sealing master.


----------



## Kyu (May 5, 2015)

Minato seals Madara into one of his teammates and calls it a day.


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

Team minato whipe the floor with madara 
No effort there 

Low diff 

All that's needed is onoki and minato . Minato wraps onoki right behind madara Jinton GG


----------



## RedChidori (May 5, 2015)

BM Minato is too much for Madara-Sama. He loses indefinitely.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2015)

Madara low-diffs.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 5, 2015)

Once madara goes PS BM minato is the only one that matters and he won't out muscle madara with what his jinchuriki state can do(nor outlast since he is living vs a zombie). As for sealing i don't know if that is feasible while madara is in PS so unless minato uses it to tag madara early in the match that's out the window. Gaara's sealing has already been dealt with by lesser stages of susanoo so he's kinda a non factor.

All in all madara should take this high diff unless he acts like a idiot and get tagged by RDS somehow.


----------



## Joakim3 (May 5, 2015)

Unless Madara acts like a complete idiot in the initial scuffle he wins

He's going to realize that a conventional ninjutsu fight with the Minato supported by 4 other high/mid tier kage isn't going to net any successful results, so he'll opt for OP hax in the form of PS 

At which point it becomes BM Minato vs. Edo Madara w/ PS in which the latter decisively wins with the rest of the kage dying in the crossfire


----------



## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

Thinking the other Kages here are irrelevant is absolutly ridiculous. lol
Onoki with some of Tsunade chakra was able to use a huge ass Jinton, Kurama's chakra is going too be too much
for PS to handle. lol

@ Donovan

PS is irrelevant as it can be easily teleported away. Also, if Madara used Preta path even for once against Minato during the battle
he is going to stay linked to Minato at all time, in which case he is pretty much a fucked up doll in his hand.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 6, 2015)

BM Minato can't even defeat Hashirama without Shinsuusenju. 
There's no way he is defeating Edo Madara with both Hashirama's Jutsu and Rinnegan.

Seeing he's the only person that really matters on the opposing side - with everyone else getting killed in the crossfire - Madara takes the victory quite easily. Any type of difficulty is going to arise from taking away Minato's pathetic attempt to escape. Yondaime only has speed on Madara, while the latter is more versatile and has suppression-based techniques suited for taking on Bijuu/Jins. Kajukai Kourin and Moku Bunshin w/ Susano'o are going to ruin Minato's day, especially when he gets blindsided by BT + Ningendou in the midst of that predicament.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (May 6, 2015)

The rest are non factors, and Edo Madara beats BM Minato w/ PS.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 6, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Battlefield: Fourth Division vs Madara
> Starting Distance: Same as Canon
> Restrictions: None
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...



I'm going to go ahead and assume that this combination of Gokage will make Madara uses more jutsu that Mokuton, Rinnegan and EMS have to offer.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> BM Minato can't even defeat Hashirama without Shinsuusenju.
> There's no way he is defeating Edo Madara with both Hashirama's Jutsu and Rinnegan.
> 
> Seeing he's the only person that really matters on the opposing side - with everyone else getting killed in the crossfire - Madara takes the victory quite easily. Any type of difficulty is going to arise from taking away Minato's pathetic attempt to escape. Yondaime only has speed on Madara, while the latter is more versatile and has suppression-based techniques suited for taking on Bijuu/Jins. Kajukai Kourin and Moku Bunshin w/ Susano'o are going to ruin Minato's day, especially when he gets blindsided by BT + Ningendou in the midst of that predicament.



He can defeat Hashirama with his Buddha (using the S/T barrier), but nonetheless, it's not like madara won. lol 

- He is not. The 3rd Raikage can fight against a Bijuu, and Madara's strongest jutsu is only comparable to a Bijuu. Thinking someone like the Raikage is a non-foctor is dumb. 

- Lol, Minato can summon the frogs, and their sound jutsu would make the Susanoo a child play. Just like how itachi got fodderstompped from a chunin-level like Tayuya with B-Rank genjutsu. Or how Madara himself got fodderstompped by Lee. lol 

Giving the Frogs some of Kurama's chakr to make their SM much faster, Madara will get 1-shotted by Frog Song as the fodder he is. 

The uchiha have a history with chunnin rank characters
1- Madara got fodderstompped by Lee
2- Obito got mind-rapped twice by Ino
3- itachi & Sasuke got trapped by Tayuya.

thinking Kages who are capable of fighting on par with Bijuu are non-factor.....  
Not as if they are needed anyway.



> suppression-based techniques suited for taking on Bijuu/Jins


He is not landing a single hit with his pathetic speed in comparison tho.



> Kajukai Kourin and Moku Bunshin



That's so dumb. 25 of them couldn't do jack shit to Onoki. 
1 TBB and all of them are history.

Needless to say Minato can simply use his clones and BM avatar as well. 



> BT + Ningendou in the midst of that predicament.



a scan of madara using that? lol


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Thinking the other Kages here are irrelevant is absolutly ridiculous. lol
> Onoki with some of Tsunade chakra was able to use a huge ass Jinton, Kurama's chakra is going too be too much
> for PS to handle. lol
> 
> ...



Minato hasn't shown the mastery to make those kurama powered shrouds naruto was making so letting onoki make a jinton of PS size or whatever wouldn't happen here.

*Edo* madara will never be in a position where he can't just bring PS back out even if minato could teleport it away. Since madara can fly and spam mountain range cutting air slashing minato might not be able to get close in his kyuubi avatar(easy target).

If PS is out madara will have no need to be using preta path. Again madara not playing around would beat this team. Not to mention minato offense can be blocked by ribcage susanoo and madara has knowledge on ftg so why would he risk setting up this link your talking about.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Madara low-diffs.


This is a far stronger Gokage team than up in canon, if you don't explain your reasoning you sound like a basher.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Minato hasn't shown the mastery to make those kurama powered shrouds naruto was making so letting onoki make a jinton of PS size or whatever wouldn't happen here.
> 
> *Edo* madara will never be in a position where he can't just bring PS back out even if minato could teleport it away. Since madara can fly and spam mountain range cutting air slashing minato might not be able to get close in his kyuubi avatar(easy target).
> 
> If PS is out madara will have no need to be using preta path. Again madara not playing around would beat this team. Not to mention minato offense can be blocked by ribcage susanoo and madara has knowledge on ftg so why would he risk setting up this link your talking about.



Except Minato gave all the SA the same thing Naruto did when he was going to teleport them out side. 

- Says who? When Hashirama and Madara got fodderstompped from the crossfire of the battle between Obito and the others, their PS and Golem were not brought back after that.  

In addition, when Gaara pulled Madara out of his Susanoo, he needed to use the Rinnegan to protect himself, as he couldn't preform another Susanoo on time. 

- Madara never fly.  
and slashes  will get redirected at him even if he played that way (which is obviously OOC) 

- again Susanoo is useless against sound jutsu.  
and PS's slashes are useless against Kurama as we have seen.



> so why would he risk setting up this link your talking about.


Because he will have to if he wants to save his ass. Onoki who has Kurama's chakra, will foderstomps his PS with his jinton.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except Minato gave all the SA the same thing Naruto did when he was going to teleport them out side.


What. Minato simply linked up with naruto and by proxy linked with everyone else because of naruto's connection with them through chakra cloaks. Minato never passed out kyuubi shrouds.



> - Says who? When Hashirama and Madara got fodderstompped from the crossfire of the battle between Obito and the others, their PS and Golem were not brought back after that.


Because he didn't try to activate it again obviously.  



> In addition, when Gaara pulled Madara out of his Susanoo, he needed to use the Rinnegan to protect himself, as he couldn't preform another Susanoo on time.


Or his susanoo was not enough hence him saying "too much" and proceeding to no sell it with absorption.



> - Madara never fly.
> and slashed will get redirected at him even if he played that way (which is obviously OOC)


It has wings and the databook with him listed as the only user states it can fly hmmm. Minato can't redirect slashes forever not to mention ti won't break through madara's PS which lol tanks bijuudama.



> - again Susanoo is useless against sound jutsu.


That sound genjutsu takes to long for it to even be a factor here.




> Because he will have to if he wants to save his ass. Onoki who has Kurama's chakra, will foderstomps his PS with his jinton.


Onoki jinton has never been a threat to madara's PS in canon and that won't change here i'm afraid.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

> [=blackguyinpinksuit;53536777]What. Minato simply linked up with naruto and by proxy linked with everyone else because of naruto's connection with them through chakra cloaks. Minato never passed out kyuubi shrouds.


lol, what? Obviously he did.
_forced_
As B stated it's both of their chakra, and that's why it became bigger and stronger
and that's what Hinata said as well
_forced_

Even of that's not enough for you, he still gave his chakra to his child in another time
_forced_
Link removed


> Because he didn't try to activate it again obviously.


So, you're saying for Madara to stand a chance here he must be OOC? 
But, why can't the other be? 


> Or his susanoo was not enough hence him saying "too much" and proceeding to no sell it with absorption.


You love to put excuses, Donovan. 
How wouldn't his Susanoo be enough when he can power it up enough to even take on a TBB? 


> It has wings and the databook with him listed as the only user states it can fly hmmm. Minato can't redirect slashes forever not to mention ti won't break through madara's PS which lol tanks bijuudama.


Why would he need to redirect them forever? Also, his PS took on ONE TBB, that's not the same as taking several with his redirected attacks. 


> That sound genjutsu takes to long for it to even be a factor here.


lol, you do know that Kurama's chakra make that much faster right?
Link removed




> Onoki jinton has never been a threat to madara's PS in canon and that won't change here i'm afraid.


I am afraid Madara's PS has never faced Onoki with Kurama's chakra. Even his son's jutsu was able to stop the Juubi from moving with Kurama's chakra. Thinking Madara's PS stands a chance is absolutly ridiculous and unrealistic.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol, what? Obviously he did.
> Link removed
> As B stated it's both of their chakra, and that's why it became bigger and stronger


Simple. When naruto and minato mixed their chakra it was naruto who pass out the mixture(of light and dark kurama) to everyone.


> and that's what Hinata said as well
> Link removed


She was correct it was naruto and the kyuubi's chakra.



> Even of that's not enough for you, he still gave his chakra to his child in another time
> Link removed
> Link removed


That was yang kurama taking away yin kurama's chakra hence what yang kurama said.



> So, you're saying for Madara to stand a chance here he must be OOC?
> But, why can't the other be?


Using susanoo wings which are meant for flight and using it's swords which are meant for slashing is OOC?



> You love to put excuses, Donovan.
> How wouldn't his Susanoo be enough when he can power it up enough to even take on a TBB?


He wasn't going all out at the time and is not the type to just randomly show his trump that easily. Preta path was enough after all.



> Why would he need to redirect them forever?


Because madara will never run out of stamina and keep spamming them.



> Also, his PS took on ONE TBB, that's not the same as taking several with his redirected attacks.


Not a scratch from a stronger technique(bijuudama) yet a bunch of uses from a move(PS) lesser than the technique that couldn't scratch it means it would be broken? Minato might die trying before he really cracks it. Not to mention it will be hard to reach a flying PS with ftg redirection through kunai throwing. 



> lol, you do know that Kurama's chakra make that much faster right?
> Link removed


Well even if this was the case it wouldn't be accessible here. Also gathering natural energy faster=/=making that sound genjutsu activate in a fraction of the usual time or whatever estimate your making. 



> I am afraid Madara's PS has never faced Onoki with Kurama's chakra.


He has face far worse in the form of hashirama's techniques.



> Even his son's jutsu was able to stop the Juubi from moving with Kurama's chakra. Thinking Madara's PS stands a chance is absolutly ridiculous and unrealistic.


Different situations with mountain sandwich which is a specialty of kitsuchi and need a big amount of prep time to use. Not that it would threaten a airborne madara anyway. Onoki will not have enough kurama chakra to blow away madara's PS(not that it would kill a edo anyway).


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

You series? 
I don't even know where to begin with that. 

First of all, from where you took that it's Narudo who sent his pa's chakra? 
Because obviously Narudo can't control the invidious chakra because he linked his to them. 
Nor can they control his because they are linked to him either. 

Hinata's statement is very clear, and it meant Minato's, and that's why he was able to teleport them. 
Kurama's chakra is not separated from Naruto's, and that's why C said it's his chakra.  
(chapter 616 or 617 don't feel like looking it up now)



> That was yang kurama taking away yin kurama's chakra hence what yang kurama said.


Which is by Minato.  
and even if for God's sake we say that Minato does not know how to transfer his chakra (even though it's the exact damn way he did before to Naruto as Kurama stated ). Kurama knows how, good enough?  



> Using susanoo wings which are meant for flight and using it's swords which are meant for slashing is OOC?


Yes. Unless you can show Madara doing that in any battle at all. 



> He wasn't going all out at the time and is not the type to just randomly show his trump that easily. Preta path was enough after all.


What does going all out have to do with anything? The Rinnegan is a higher power up, and yet he showed it.
Also, we can follow the same logic here then, as almost no character goes all out right away. 

By that logic, Minato would speedblitze him in a microsecond before he even knows what happened to him. 



> Because madara will never run out of stamina and keep spamming them.


by your logic no Edo can even be defeated, but it's not the case. They get defeated, and there is always an a chance to seal. It's the same guy who got fodderstompped by Lee, and was almost sealed by the Gokage. 



> Not a scratch from a stronger technique(bijuudama) yet a bunch of uses from a move(PS) lesser than the technique that couldn't scratch it means it would be broken? Minato might die trying before he really cracks it. Not to mention it will be hard to reach a flying PS with ftg redirection through kunai throwing.
> 
> Qu



So, since you admit that TBB is stronger, then you do know that his attacks will get defeated. Also, Kurama's power
without a host is not the same with one.  

He does not need to through a Kunai, all he needs is to jump. Also, Minato can simply setup a barrier that does
not allow Madara to "lolfly"  



> Well even if this was the case it wouldn't be accessible here. Also gathering natural energy faster=/=making that sound genjutsu activate in a fraction of the usual time or whatever estimate your making.


and why wouldn't it be exactly? 
Gathering the energy is all what makes the jutsu take long. Without that drawback, there is no problem. Madara is going to get fodderstompped by it. 



> He has face far worse in the form of hashirama's techniques.



lol, not even close. Jinton fodderstomps the Wood as we have seen. Hashirama's jutsu were only bigger because
he has far more chakra than Onoki. Otherwise, the Jinton is obviously superior as it's made out of 3 elements instead of 2. And it erases anything it touches. 



> Different situations with mountain sandwich which is a specialty of kitsuchi and need a big amount of prep time to use. Not that it would threaten a airborne madara anyway. Onoki will not have enough kurama chakra to blow away madara's PS(not that it would kill a edo anyway).



Please. 
Kakashi with some of Kurama's chakra stated he can teleport the entire Juubi, and you're here overestimating the living shit out of that PS even though it can never even scratch Kurama's avatar to begin with. lol 

All the jutsu were getting much more powerful with Kurama. 
1- Ino's jutsu was able to mind fuck obito completely, when it couldn't stand more than 2 second before.
2- Kakashi's Kamui being hyped to warp the entire Juubi.
3- Onoki's Son's jutsu stopping the Juubi, when it failed previously against the GM. 
4- Hinata's jutsu being able to deflect the Juubi's tail

and so on
I think the differences are pretty obvious.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> First of all, from where you took that it's Narudo who sent his pa's chakra?


Feats on him being shown to give out and control those shrouds. Minato's chakra was linked with his at them time so it's fair game.



> Hinata's statement is very clear, and it meant Minato's, and that's why he was able to teleport them.


The fact remains that he was able to teleport them because minato and naruto mixed their chakra and the army became linked to minato as a result. 



> and even if for God's sake we say that Minato does not know how to transfer his chakra (even though it's the exact damn way he did before to Naruto as Kurama stated ). Kurama knows how, good enough?


Yang kurama's chakra sharing was noted by kakashi to be weaker than BM naruto so i'm not sold that onoki would be able to threaten PS with a jinton powered by that.



> Yes. Unless you can show Madara doing that in any battle at all.


So if jiraiya hasn't been shown using ghost punches it OOC despite having frog katas? If third raikage hasn't used black lighting it's OOC despite having black lighting? If minato throws up his barrier he hinted to use it's OOC despite having said barrier ninjutsu?




> What does going all out have to do with anything? The Rinnegan is a higher power up, and yet he showed it.


He claimed PS was his full power.


> Also, we can follow the same logic here then, as almost no character goes all out right away.


Depends on the circumstances.



> By that logic, Minato would speedblitze him in a microsecond before he even knows what happened to him.


Not sure what that would do to a edo but anyway feats kinda signify that won't happen.




> by your logic no Edo can even be defeated, but it's not the case. They get defeated, and there is always an a chance to seal. It's the same guy who got fodderstompped by Lee, and was almost sealed by the Gokage.


I never said edos can't be defeated they just won't get the chance here with BM minato being the only one able to seal the deal here when PS comes out. Those lee and gokage examples you brought up are when he was not using perfect susanoo.





> So, since you admit that TBB is stronger, then you do know that his attacks will get defeated.


But minato still won't kill him he is getting outlasted and beat soon enough.



> Also, Kurama's power
> without a host is not the same with one.


The standard bijuudama has been shown to be the same in power with or without a host. Minato hasn't shown the ability to use super bijuudamas.



> He does not need to through a Kunai, all he needs is to jump. Also, Minato can simply setup a barrier that does
> not allow Madara to "lolfly"


Minato cannot maneuver in the air or go as high as a flying construct can so i'm not sold he would catch madara especially with mountain range carving slashing coming in droves. What barrier are you talking about?




> and why wouldn't it be exactly?
> *Gathering the energy is all what makes the jutsu take long*. Without that drawback, there is no problem. Madara is going to get fodderstompped by it.


Hmmm where is the evidence supporting the bold?





> lol, not even close. Jinton fodderstomps the Wood as we have seen. Hashirama's jutsu were only bigger because
> he has far more chakra than Onoki. Otherwise, the Jinton is obviously superior as it's made out of 3 elements instead of 2. And it erases anything it touches.


Well yes hashirama wood techs are so big they stand over anything onoki has ever done. So madara has faced higher level things than onoki jinton.





> Please.
> Kakashi with some of Kurama's chakra stated he can teleport the entire Juubi, and you're here overestimating the living shit out of that PS even though it can never even scratch Kurama's avatar to begin with. lol
> 
> All the jutsu were getting much more powerful with Kurama.
> ...


As i said earlier he onoki can't have the kyuubi shroud here and no matter how great his power it won't get rid of madara permanently. There only shot is sound genjutsu shutting madara down and i am iffy on that.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Thinking the other Kages here are irrelevant is absolutly ridiculous. lol
> Onoki with some of Tsunade chakra was able to use a huge ass Jinton, Kurama's chakra is going too be too much
> for PS to handle. lol



Minato couldn't perfect that chakra transfer jutsu you're talking about. He cannot replicate Naruto's feat. 

Madara was also not even using all his ocular powers, nor was he using all of Hashirama's jutsu. That's a fact that's going to be relevant to. In fact, we might even see Madara make 25 Mokubunshins, each with the Rinnegan willing to actually go all out. He could make more than 25 Mokubunshins since ET will continually restore Madara's chakra reserves.



> @ Donovan
> 
> PS is irrelevant as it can be easily teleported away. Also, if Madara used Preta path even for once against Minato during the battle
> he is going to stay linked to Minato at all time, in which case he is pretty much a fucked up doll in his hand.



Imagine 25+ Perfect Susanoos. Alongside a Madara (and a few clones) attacking at once. Minato will be more focused on making sure his comrades do not die than just teleporting Susanoo everywhere. 

Preta Path won't link him to Minato like you think. The moment it is used on Minato, game over. Minato will have no chakra to do shit, he'll be finished off with Ningendo from there. 

Minato wasn't stronger than Hashirama, without BM he wasn't much of a match for Madara. Combining Hashirama, Madara and the Rinnegan, that's too much for Minato with this back up to handle.

If Minato alone is as troublesome to Madara as you're implying, that's just inviting Madara to make a shit ton of Mokubunshins which function as a superior version of Pain Rikudou which retain _all_ the user's powers.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

I am so tired now, so Donovan I might reply to you tomorrow (If I stayed interested) since yours is longer. 



> Minato couldn't perfect that chakra transfer jutsu you're talking about. He cannot replicate Naruto's feat.
> 
> Madara was also not even using all his ocular powers, nor was he using all of Hashirama's jutsu. That's a fact that's going to be relevant to. In fact, we might even see Madara make 25 Mokubunshins, each with the Rinnegan willing to actually go all out. He could make more than 25 Mokubunshins since ET will continually restore Madara's chakra reserves.



Obviously you haven't paid attention to what Kurama said. What he said is Naruto surpassed his parents because
he can link his chakra to more people, and give them a  much greater amount of chakra. That's obvious since BM Narudo has much more chakra than his parents. However, BM Minato who has the same amount of chakra like Narudo is a different story obviously. 

- No, it's not relevant. He uses what he uses, and he had TONS of panels to show his power unlike the others. If anything you should say that to the Kages team. We haven's seen Minato use any of his 3 elements, or the barrier, his long named jutsu, or more of his sealing jutsu. We haven's seen the Mizukage uses the other 3 elements he has. We haven's seen the Raikage use the black lightning or the other elements and so on and so forth.  It's rather poor of you to put such a pitiful excuse for madara when he had more sceen time than all the others combined. 

Also, he used the 25 clones, and most of the battle was off-panel. You have no idea what they have or haven't used, and therefore, you can't claim that as if it's a given fact.




> Imagine 25+ Perfect Susanoos. Alongside a Madara (and a few clones) attacking at once. Minato will be more focused on making sure his comrades do not die than just teleporting Susanoo everywhere.
> 
> Preta Path won't link him to Minato like you think. The moment it is used on Minato, game over. Minato will have no chakra to do shit, he'll be finished off with Ningendo from there.
> 
> ...



Imagining stuff is point-less and leads to pretty ridiculous things. For example the barrier Minato was going to put around Kurama is a S/T barrier, than if anything from the inside goes to it, it gets redirected again, and as such, all of madara's attack get redirected. Meanwhile, Minato send Onoki's Jinton through the barrier to kill madara.  


Also, why can't Minato use his own clones then with their BM avatars?  



> Preta Path won't link him to Minato like you think. The moment it is used on Minato, game over. Minato will have no chakra to do shit, he'll be finished off with Ningendo from there.


Yes it will. 
just like how he absorbed Hashirama's SM, and it stayed on him. Thinking Minato will get defeated by Preta path is dumb tho. Also, how on earth would Madara catch Minato who's several times faster than him to begin with? 

If Minato was able to survive the Tree and it's absorption, then Madara is not doing jack shit. 



> Minato wasn't stronger than Hashirama, without BM he wasn't much of a match for Madara. Combining Hashirama, Madara and the Rinnegan, that's too much for Minato with this back up to handle.



That's based on what you want to believe. Even IF we went with that idea, different abilities, and different skills
gives different results. Hashirama (assuming he is stronger) was completely useless in the war because his skills
and abilities are not suited for that. In previous war he got his ass handled to him, and get killed...etc

Also, the Rinnegan on Edo Madara is weaker, and he can't/don't/couldn't use anything with it except for Preta Path
which is going to fuck him over if he absorbed Minato's chakra because of the chakra link. 



> If Minato alone is as troublesome to Madara as you're implying, that's just inviting Madara to make a shit ton of Mokubunshins which function as a superior version of Pain Rikudou which retain all the user's powers.



You do know the more clones they make, the weaker they get, right? 
And please don't tell me that you're oblivious to how ET work with that nonsense "endless chakra" 
Just like how Hashirama and Tobirama while using the barrier, they couldn't make a lot of clones, and even those
clones were noted to be extremely weak, and out flat stated to be fodder-level. 

Now, assuming Madara has that much more chakra than Hashirama to the point of making tones of clones which
all of them will use all Rinnegan justu, PS...etc that only exist in Fan-fiction my dear. Otherwise, he would have done so.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Minato can link his chakra towards others and mold it to fit their characteristics. That's what he did to Naruto while he sealed Kurama within him.

 The only thing Kurama implied was the amount of links that Minato could make at once was vastly inferior to what Naruto was capable of doing.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obviously you haven't paid attention to what Kurama said. What he said is Naruto surpassed his parents because
> he can link his chakra to more people, and give them a  much greater amount of chakra. That's obvious since BM Narudo has much more chakra than his parents. However, BM Minato who has the same amount of chakra like Narudo is a different story obviously.
> 
> - No, it's not relevant. He uses what he uses, and he had TONS of panels to show his power unlike the others. If anything you should say that to the Kages team. We haven's seen Minato use any of his 3 elements, or the barrier, his long named jutsu, or more of his sealing jutsu. We haven's seen the Mizukage uses the other 3 elements he has. We haven's seen the Raikage use the black lightning or the other elements and so on and so forth.  It's rather poor of you to put such a pitiful excuse for madara when he had more sceen time than all the others combined.
> ...



Kurama also said that Naruto can perfectly link his chakra to other people, wouldn't have mentioned that detail if Minato could do it too.

Going by the fact they were all coated in Susanoo, they were just using Susanoo to smack around the Kage. But in this fight he'll be pushed to use more jutsu, the clones might actually decide to us all their powers, including the Rinnegan. Madara might make 50+ clones if the foes are deemed tough enough.


> Imagining stuff is point-less and leads to pretty ridiculous things. For example the barrier Minato was going to put around Kurama is a S/T barrier, than if anything from the inside goes to it, it gets redirected again, and as such, all of madara's attack get redirected. Meanwhile, Minato send Onoki's Jinton through the barrier to kill madara.
> 
> 
> Also, why can't Minato use his own clones then with their BM avatars?



You're imagining Minato can replicate Naruto's feat is okay, but myself imagining Madara can use more of his powers is ridiculous. 


Jinton has always failed against Madara, except when he was doing nothing.
Maybe this team will actually make him use Shinra Tensei.


> Yes it will.
> just like how he absorbed Hashirama's SM, and it stayed on him. Thinking Minato will get defeated by Preta path is dumb tho. Also, how on earth would Madara catch Minato who's several times faster than him to begin with?
> 
> If Minato was able to survive the Tree and it's absorption, then Madara is not doing jack shit.



He absorbed Hashirama's natural energy along with his spiritual and physical energy and converted it to his own. That's not something that'll link Minato to Madara. 

Thinking Minato can use Preta Path to create some link is dumb, thinking Madara can shut down Minato if he touches him with Preta Path is using what we actually know from the series. 

So you're telling me Minato will always run away from Madara and never, ever try to fight him? Well Madara's shown he can handle Naruto and even Ei in a fight, without being overwhelmed despite them being so much faster than he is. 

The tree just took Minato's shroud, he wasn't going to survive the absorption when the Shinju was going to target the Hokage, that's why they all got the hell out of there. 



> That's based on what you want to believe. Even IF we went with that idea, different abilities, and different skills
> gives different results. Hashirama (assuming he is stronger) was completely useless in the war because his skills
> and abilities are not suited for that. In previous war he got his ass handled to him, and get killed...etc
> 
> ...



I'm believing what the manga is leading me to believe. The idea of Minato being the strongest Hokage did actually begin to weaken when we learned Hashirama could take out Kurama, plus the strongest Uchiha at the time, without dying. Madara sensed all the Hokage's chakra and still found Hashirama's chakra worthy; Bijuu Minato wasn't considered worthy to fight Edo Madara.

Of course he lost in the previous war, he beat the Madara that would thrash Minato and then got shut down by that Madara who returned at full power. 

Rinnegan Madara can use any Rinnegan jutsu he has, apart from Limbo. If any Rinnegan power Edo Nagato could use, Edo Madara could use better.

Go back to the databooks and manga and look at chakra link and Preta Path and understand why what you are saying can never happen. While you're looking, try find evidence that Minato can replicate Naruto's feat. Remember the "that jutsu" Minato couldn't perfect that Naruto could only perfect with Kurama's power? Yeah, that's the chakra link.



> You do know the more clones they make, the weaker they get, right?
> And please don't tell me that you're oblivious to how ET work with that nonsense "endless chakra"
> Just like how Hashirama and Tobirama while using the barrier, they couldn't make a lot of clones, and even those
> clones were noted to be extremely weak, and out flat stated to be fodder-level.
> ...



You're confusing Kage Bunshins with Mokubunshins, my friend. Also you're forgetting context: Hashirama had his focus on the seal and protecting his comrades. ITT Madara just has to focus on killing his opponents, the clones are going to have the chakra and focus to do so.  
ET gives endless chakra refills, that's what the manga says. 

Infinite chakra =/= chakra refills. The barrier still had the Hokage using a lot of chakra, continuously. If the barrier didn't require maintenance, then chakra wouldn't be an issue. 
Madara won't be using jutsu like that, so the quality of his Mokubunshins will still be amazing. 

My friend, the only fan fiction is assuming Minato's speed will make a massive difference in this fight, he's not Kayuga. Also assuming he can use the chakra link to a high standard, he's not Naruto. 

Saying Mokubunshins can use the abilities of their original user, that's canon. Now unless you believe that the Gokage ITT won't make Madara up his game, relative to how it was with the other set of Gokage, Madara will up his game.

The fact you've got to try to argue against the effects of the Mokubunshin and what abilities they have, ET's chakra side effect and Madara having all the Rinnegan's Six Path powers seriously suggest you don't think Minato alone can handle Madara going at him at full force. Even with the 4 Gokage and Shukaku backing him up.


----------



## Seraphiel (May 7, 2015)

BM Minato isn't even at base Hashirama level, Hussain needs to calm the fuck down with his statements. He would literally be a non factor against Madara.


----------



## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

@Munboy
Clones cannot use any Jutsu at full power . So clones using PS is absolutely fan fic 
No different from me saying itschi can use susanoo with his clones . Clones are weaker shadow selfs 

Tobirama the creator of the Jutsu says so 

Even though mokuton bunshin got higher combat ability no clone has ever been shown to be able to use the original most powerful technique . Even God naruto clones could only use about 2 clones when using BM 

That Naruto is leeps and bounds above this madara


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 7, 2015)

The only potential threat here is BM Minato, the rest get oneshot with utter ease. 

I'd say EMS Madara vs BM Minato would be a good match, but with the addition of rinnegan, Madara has the clear edge.
I don't think the rest of Minato's teamm8s will have much effect in late game when PS and BM come out, so they don't change the outcome.

Madara wins mid dif.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Munboy
> Clones cannot use any Jutsu at full power . So clones using PS is absolutely fan fic
> No different from me saying itschi can use susanoo with his clones . Clones are weaker shadow selfs



Based on what clones can't use jutsu at full power. 

Itachi could try to have clones use Susanoo... he just doesn't have the chakra reserves to pull it off. 



> Tobirama the creator of the Jutsu says so



Cite me the page and I'll give you the context. Tobirama said Hiraishin is slow to use with clones, well slower than using it with another Hiraishin user. However it can still use Hiraishin. Just like Madara's clones can still use Perfect Susanoo, or even the Buddha statue, Ninjutsu variant. 



> Even though mokuton bunshin got higher combat ability no clone has ever been shown to be able to use the original most powerful technique . Even God naruto clones could only use about 2 clones when using BM
> 
> That Naruto is leeps and bounds above this madara



No clone, whose user has insane chakra reserves, has ever needed to use the original most powerful jutsu they've got. 

Naruto made 3 clones in BM, and guess what: I'm right about the chakra reserves part, Naruto wasn't working with his full chakra capacity.

Madara's chakra gets topped up with ET after he uses jutsu. He can make 40k clones if he wanted and still have the chakra to do more.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The only potential threat here is BM Minato, the rest get oneshot with utter ease.
> 
> I'd say EMS Madara vs BM Minato would be a good match, but with the addition of rinnegan, Madara has the clear edge.
> I don't think the rest of Minato's teamm8s will have much effect in late game when PS and BM come out, so they don't change the outcome.
> ...



And this just considers EMS and Rinnegan, throwing in Mokuton is overkill.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 7, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> And this just considers EMS and Rinnegan, throwing in Mokuton is overkill.



True. Actually If we consider Mokuton's ability to fodderize Bijuu, then even BM isn't helping Minato alot here.


----------



## Deer Lord (May 7, 2015)

Shiki Fujin?


----------



## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

@munboy do show me a clone using any Jutsu at full power 
Also based on Tobirama calling them weaker versions of the original 
And madara off panelling several Hashirama clones while sitting down yet being unable to beat hashirama in a 1 on 1 fight with kyuubi help no less 

Tobirama the creator calls clones weak versions of the original it's in that same chapter . You seem to know which one . Do try to read it again . Am on my phone . Can't help ATM. But no seriously considering hashirama clones can even get madara to sit up . I think my point stands 

Madara also calls clones too weak and just a distraction. Kakashi also tells naruto that clones are just distractions 

They wouldnt be if they held the power of the original 


Mostly Munboy do show me a clone using the original most powerful Jutsu and you might have a point . So far Tobirama, kakashi and madara all clone users have called clones weak versions of the original and at best disractions that can't be used to land any decisive hit


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @munboy do show me a clone using any Jutsu at full power
> Also based on Tobirama calling them weaker versions of the original
> And madara off panelling several Hashirama clones while sitting down yet being unable to beat hashirama in a 1 on 1 fight with kyuubi help no less



You're the one who made the strong claim that clones cannot use strong jutsu by any means, so you should support that assertion.

When did Tobirama call them weak.

Hashirama's clones weren't at their best capacity as Hashirama's chakra level was compromised due to maintaining the barrier.



> Tobirama the creator calls clones weak versions of the original it's in that same chapter . You seem to know which one . Do try to read it again . Am on my phone . Can't help ATM. But no seriously considering hashirama clones can even get madara to sit up . I think my point stands



Tobirama never said that. In fact, Tobirama seemed to imply that as the original user of Kage Bunshins powers up, so do the clones.




> Mostly Munboy do show me a clone using the original most powerful Jutsu and you might have a point . So far Tobirama, kakashi and madara all clone users have called clones weak versions of the original and at best disractions that can't be used to land any decisive hit



You proved it yourself when you showed Naruto's clones using the super Kurama mode. The fact Naruto's clones were able to use Bijuu Rasengans also disprove your point.

They disprove your point because your claim about clones was never made in the manga. 

Kakashi and Tobirama never said that. Madara said Naruto was too weak alone, so clones won't make a difference. Madara also said Hashirama's clones were fodder because Hashirama was too focused on the barrier, not on Madara.

You're using claims which don't exist (Tobirama/Kakashi) or out of context quotes (Madara) to support your point. That's not the way to go. You need evidence that someone actually said clones cannot do what the original user can... unlike a lot of clone users, Madara and the likes of Naruto and Hashirama have a large amount of chakra reserves.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 7, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Shiki Fujin?



Madara has rinnegan, so it is likely that he can see and avoid Death God.


----------



## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're the one who made the strong claim that clones cannot use strong jutsu by any means, so you should support that assertion.
> 
> When did Tobirama call them weak.
> 
> ...




Choji
clones are too boring yet the original is superior to him
Are you sitting down.
 Ok take a seat

clones being trolled. 
Choji

notice hashirama an Edo with inifinite chakra levels. Yet his clones are being trolled by madara while he sits down

If he makes his clones as strong as himself his real body will shirvel up and die. He gotta put more chakra into his real body. Do note that. the stronger the clone the less chakra the real body actually has to use. 

So do tell me how madara would giving the clones enough chakra to use PS while using PS himself. Do go on and tell me please

Naruto is the only character to have used a technique on the level of FRS with his clone. NOtice the original wasnt fighting when that happened. Hence he could focus most of his chakra into the clone. 

notice how original hashirama forces madara to use PS here

Choji

did you notice he is off his ass?

Choji

hirashin with clones is too slow yet with originals. it isnt.  

lastly kakashi point about clones. do read this part properly before replying

Choji

kakashi comment. read that part properly then come back and reply 

how does anything in kishi manga imply madara can use clones and PS at the same time. 

or even attempt what you suggest which made me   

clones using PS.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> _Sakura reading into his attack patterns and predetermining the direction of his attacks._
> clones are too boring yet the original is superior to him
> Are you sitting down.
> Ok take a seat
> ...



Read what Madara said in your second link... 



> If he makes his clones as strong as himself his real body will shirvel up and die. He gotta put more chakra into his real body. Do note that. the stronger the clone the less chakra the real body actually has to use.



Where the hell are you getting this info?

Read the damn manga. 
_Sakura reading into his attack patterns and predetermining the direction of his attacks._

As Naruto recovered, having Minato's extra chakra, evey one did. If he had clones out there, same deal.

Edo Madara's chakra levels get restored after he uses his jutsu, meaning the clones will be of decent quality.



> Naruto is the only character to have used a technique on the level of FRS with his clone. NOtice the original wasnt fighting when that happened. Hence he could focus most of his chakra into the clone.



No, that contradicts your faulty claim of clones can't use strong powers. 

Naruto's reserves weren't at their best due to the war. Madara is constantly going to be restored. I don't see why this is hard to get, Edo Tensei gives Madara infinite chakra refills.



> hirashin with clones is too slow yet with originals. it isnt.



That's just using Hiraishin. Susanoo, Rinnegan and Mokuton are totally different jutsu.

So to you Hiraishin, which clones can use, being slower with clones means Madara cannot use strong jutsu, period. 

I think you're trying to hard to extrapolate points which don't make sense. At most your point means Madara, if he could use Hiraishin, wouldn't be as fast if he made clones use it.

However nothing about it hampering the power of using multiple Susanoo. The multiple Susanoo used on the Gokage were fine; they didn't need to go up a level, so they didn't. 

Tbh, with his powers the clones don't even need to use PS to handle this lot. I don't even think Madara needs PS to handle these Gokage.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> True. Actually If we consider Mokuton's ability to fodderize Bijuu, then even BM isn't helping Minato alot here.



 This. Madara toyed with BM Naruto with just Wood Dragon and managed to actually absorb his entire Kurama Avatar.

 How BM Minato even comes close to Edo Madara w/ Perfect Susano'o + Wood Dragon and other Mokuton shit is beyond me.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> This. Madara toyed with BM Naruto with just Wood Dragon and managed to actually absorb his entire Kurama Avatar.


Naruto freed himself from the Mokuton Ryu. Shattered and neutralized it. Madara was serious, he said it himself so saying he 'toyed with Naruto' is downplaying.


> How BM Minato even comes close to Edo Madara w/ Perfect Susano'o + Wood Dragon and other Mokuton shit is beyond me.


...missing the fact BM Minato can fucking TELEPORT?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 8, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto freed himself from the Mokuton Ryu. Shattered and neutralized it. Madara was serious, he said it himself so saying he 'toyed with Naruto' is downplaying.
> 
> ...missing the fact BM Minato can fucking TELEPORT?



Mokuryu did its job, it shut down thew Bijuu avatar. Going by Bee, wrapping simple Mokuton around a Jinchuriki has some suppressing. If Madara was serious, we'd have seen more Rinnegan, EMS and different variants of Mokuton. The only guy to make Madara serious was Hashirama. 

Teleporting can only do so much, he can't just hit an run against an Edo Tensei. That isn't effective.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Mokuryu did its job, it shut down thew Bijuu avatar. Going by Bee, wrapping simple Mokuton around a Jinchuriki has some suppressing. If Madara was serious, we'd have seen more Rinnegan, EMS and different variants of Mokuton. The only guy to make Madara serious was Hashirama.


Naruto was able to reform the Kurama Avatar with ease. He defeated the technique by switching out. 

Naruto knows how to fight the Rinnegan, so that's out, and EMS doesn't work well against someone who can tank PS all day. Madara said he was serious, and its his word against yours.


> Teleporting can only do so much, he can't just hit an run against an Edo Tensei. That isn't effective.


Not even teleporting his own Bijudama so Madara can't avoid it?


----------



## Kyu (May 8, 2015)

> Mokuryu did its job, it shut down thew Bijuu avatar.



...and got completely obliterated by Naruto a moment later. I mean lets be real; it doesn't have the best track record when used on Kurama and its Jinchuriki.


Kyuubi Minato _w/o_ Hiraishin is considerably faster than BM Naruto. Wood Dragon isn't touching him on its own. Ever.

A more appropriate course of action would be Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin which can throw off Minato's teleportation by altering the landscape and neutralizing his fellow kage in the process.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 9, 2015)

Minato puts everyone inside Kurama Avatar and then gives them Bijuu chakra and stomps Madara hard. Even with Edo "infinite" chakra they can only focus so much of their power into their clones so no they cant be as strong as the original.

Third will be faster and stronger so he could probably tank PS. Oonoki can use massive Jinton to destroy PS and then Gaara seals him with Shukaku. Kurama avatar also tanked a Juubi TBB with its tails and Madara's PS doesn't have power near that so he wont be breaking it.

Kurama chakra/shrouds give the kage team a huge edge over Madara. He doesnt have the power to hold down Minato in BM with wood style when Hirashin is a thing and Minato is faster than Naruto. Its obvious who takes this


----------



## Alucardemi (May 9, 2015)

I came in to say Evil Disturbance Waltz GG, but then I noticed Madara was Edo


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (May 9, 2015)

Kyu said:


> ...and got completely obliterated by Naruto a moment later. I mean lets be real; it doesn't have the best track record when used on Kurama and its Jinchuriki.
> 
> 
> Kyuubi Minato _w/o_ Hiraishin is considerably faster than BM Naruto. Wood Dragon isn't touching him on its own. Ever.
> ...



Kurama roar would blow the pollen right back at Madara.


----------



## KyuubiFan (May 9, 2015)

Ehhh... this group might do a tad bit better that the original 5, but still lose once Madara uses PS.

That said, Edo Madara is the only version they can stand a slim (~5%) chance, any higher version of Godara simply obliterates them.


----------



## Bonly (May 9, 2015)

The main and only threat here is Minato as he has the best chance to put Madara down but after his five minutes run out he''ll be at the mercy of Madara along with the others so the question is will Minato land a sealing jutsu or will Madara kill Minato first though I see the latter happening more times then not.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 9, 2015)

Minato was never stated to have the 5 minute limit on the Kurama Avatar like Naruto was when he first got it, and even then Naruto went up to 7 minutes after a short time. Madara wont be able to tag Minato when he is in BM anyway. Minato is way faster than him. 

Minato gives cloaks to everyone, GG Mads. Madara had trouble with Gaara and Oonoki without Bijuu chakra, and Shukaku is here to help Gaara too to seal him even faster. PS has power comparable to a Bijuu =/= having the same power as Kurama who was far above all the others even at 50%. Minato uses charged TBB and PS is done.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 9, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto was able to reform the Kurama Avatar with ease. He defeated the technique by switching out.
> 
> Naruto knows how to fight the Rinnegan, so that's out, and EMS doesn't work well against someone who can tank PS all day. Madara said he was serious, and its his word against yours.



Mokuryu was supposed to shut down Kurama mode from attacking Madara and it did. Madara wasn't so focused on suppressing Naruto after that. Even then it got to the point where Naruto has to exit the Bijuu avatar. If it actually wrapped around Naruto himself, he probably won't have been able to do anything. You can apply the same to Minato, provided the jutsu touches Minato. 

Naruto knows how to fight the Rinnegan and has always lost when it went at him with full force. EMS was working just fine.
Preta Path alone forces Naruto to use nothing but Taijutsu, Demon, God, Human and the Hell Realms would've made that hell. That's not including surprise Susanoo and Mokuton.

Minato and co would face the same trouble.

Madara said he'd stop playing for a bit. However he didn't go at full force, that's why he was happy when he saw Hashirama. 
He didn't even see Naruto as threatening enough to use clones against him.



> Not even teleporting his own Bijudama so Madara can't avoid it?



That won't destroy Edo Madara. Also it is Ninjutsu... Preta Path can do its thing.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Kurama roar would blow the pollen right back at Madara.



 Not when PS or Wood Dragon is involved with the latter absorbing his Kurama Avatar.

 @Saiyaman

 Yes, Madara did toy with Naruto. He literally just left BM Naruto there struggling to overcome Wood Dragon while his focus shifted towards BM Bee and Gai. Naruto admittedly broke out of it, but it took a while for him to do so.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 9, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Naruto admittedly broke out of it, but it took a while for him to do so.



He had to exit the Bijuu avatar altogether. Though he could resist the ones that suppressed Bee... Mokuryu directly could be another story.

Now... the question is: can Minato replicate Naruto's feats?


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He had to exit the Bijuu avatar altogether. Though he could resist the ones that suppressed Bee... Mokuryu directly could be another story.
> 
> Now... the question is: can Minato replicate Naruto's feats?



 Which means Minato will be vulnerable to Madara's PS. 

 I don't doubt that BM Minato's on BM Naruto's level, but I still don't believe either of those 2 have the feats to compete with EMS Madara. Madara with techniques that counter Bijuu just makes this a flat out stomp.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 9, 2015)

Kyu said:


> ...and got completely obliterated by Naruto a moment later. I mean lets be real; it doesn't have the best track record when used on Kurama and its Jinchuriki.



Yes, it got wrecked when Madara stopped caring about suppressing Naruto.



> Kyuubi Minato _w/o_ Hiraishin is considerably faster than BM Naruto. Wood Dragon isn't touching him on its own. Ever.



So Minato will be running away from Madara?
Minato can't hide from multiple dragons, potentially produced by many Madara clones, going just for him.

That is, if Minato's Bijuu powers will really be an issue. With Preta and Deva Path, alongside Susanoo... they'll need to go into Taijutsu. Even then Susanoo, Deva and Asura Paths make it obsolete.



> A more appropriate course of action would be Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin which can throw off Minato's teleportation by altering the landscape and neutralizing his fellow kage in the process.



That could work... Minato can teleport, but he can't stop breathing.

Actually that's a very good idea, I'd totally forgotten about this jutsu!




NarutoX28 said:


> Which means Minato will be vulnerable to Madara's PS.
> 
> I don't doubt that BM Minato's on BM Naruto's level, but I still don't believe either of those 2 have the feats to compete with EMS Madara. Madara with techniques that counter Bijuu just makes this a flat out stomp.



Lets not forget Flower Tree World.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 9, 2015)

Madara cant use Rinnegan techniques and EMS techniques at the same time. It takes time for him to switch between the two. 

If Madara makes too many clones they will have barely any strength so they will get fodderized


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Madara cant use Rinnegan techniques and EMS techniques at the same time. It takes time for him to switch between the two.
> 
> If Madara makes too many clones they will have barely any strength so they will get fodderized



 Mokuton isn't a byproduct of having the Rinnegan.

 Madara used Susano'o along with summoning 2 enormous Meteors.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 9, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Madara cant use Rinnegan techniques and EMS techniques at the same time. It takes time for him to switch between the two.



No it doesn't. If you're referring to that Susanoo stopping him from absorbing comment. Ask yourself this: why did Madara do it effortlessly before... why was the comment made when Madara didn't have Susanoo active.

Rinnegan is basically a higher EMS. What you're saying is basically like the MS cannot use Sharingan exclusive abilities because it takes time to switch between the two.

The Rinnegan is literally layered on top of the EMS. 



> If Madara makes too many clones they will have barely any strength so they will get fodderized



That's not the case. Madara's chakra level will always be restored to 100% due to ET. He made 25 clones which were capable of using Susanoo, so much for barely having strength.


----------



## T-Bag (May 9, 2015)

its been said over and over that the only man that can stand up to madara is hashirama. if hashirama is not on that team, he automatically wins. (not counting main characters like current sasuke/naruto)

while minato is skilled, he's just a boy to madara


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 9, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No it doesn't. If you're referring to that Susanoo stopping him from absorbing comment. Ask yourself this: why did Madara do it effortlessly before... why was the comment made when Madara didn't have Susanoo active.



So then he can only use lower tier Susanoo forms when he has Rinnegan active. That statement plus him not actually absorbing ninjutsu and using PS at the same time is proof enough he can't do it. He even said later in the manga that the Fake Rinnegan that he had as an Edo couldn't do what the real ones could. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's not the case. Madara's chakra level will always be restored to 100% due to ET. He made 25 clones which were capable of using Susanoo, so much for barely having strength.



Uuh no. Madara said that Hashirama was focusing too much power on the main body so his wood clones were weak and that was SM Hashirama who is waaaay above Madara. Edo people might have their chakra restored but splitting into clones limits the amount of power the bodies have. 

Its like this. They might might have infinite chakra but if they split into clones and limit the power their edo body can hold then it cant restore it back to 100%, itll restore it back to however they split it. If they give 20% of their potential chakra to a clone then edo will only restore 80% of the main body's power. They cant just have a million clones of themselves at full power.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> So then he can only use lower tier Susanoo forms when he has Rinnegan active. That statement plus him not actually absorbing ninjutsu and using PS at the same time is proof enough he can't do it. He even said later in the manga that the Fake Rinnegan that he had as an Edo couldn't do what the real ones could.



 That certainly is a possibility though Madara had no real reason to use Preta Path in conjunction with Perfect Susano'o. The only one is debatably SM Hashirama, but even then, Hashirama could just as easily counter it with Wood Dragon.




> Uuh no. Madara said that Hashirama was focusing too much power on the main body so his wood clones were weak and that was SM Hashirama who is waaaay above Madara. Edo people might have their chakra restored but splitting into clones limits the amount of power the bodies have.



 No, not necessarily. Hashirama in that instance had to maintain the barrier which limited the amount of clones they could use which would logically include how much chakra he puts into each clone as his attention was shifted towards maintaining the barrier at the time. That's why Tobirama at most could only use a few clones despite him being the one who created the technique.



> Its like this. They might might have infinite chakra but if they split into clones and limit the power their edo body can hold then it cant restore it back to 100%, itll restore it back to however they split it. If they give 20% of their potential chakra to a clone then edo will only restore 80% of the main body's power. They cant just have a million clones of themselves at full power.



 When was this implied? I don't think that was the case at all when Madara * casually * created 25 clones with the intention of having Susano'o and being strong enough to fend off the Gokage.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Mokuryu was supposed to shut down Kurama mode from attacking Madara and it did. Madara wasn't so focused on suppressing Naruto after that. Even then it got to the point where Naruto has to exit the Bijuu avatar. If it actually wrapped around Naruto himself, he probably won't have been able to do anything. You can apply the same to Minato, provided the jutsu touches Minato.


No, Naruto forcibly turned it off and then destroyed the technique by destroying the head. And then he instantly reformed it and kept fighting. Mokuryu got countered.

Minato can just teleport out of it too.


> Naruto knows how to fight the Rinnegan and has always lost when it went at him with full force. EMS was working just fine.


Last I checked, Naruto defeated two Rinnegan users. Three counting Obito. 


> Preta Path alone forces Naruto to use nothing but Taijutsu, Demon, God, Human and the Hell Realms would've made that hell. That's not including surprise Susanoo and Mokuton.


Naruto showed he can counter Preta remember? What's stopping a Frog Kata from working on Madara again?


> Minato and co would face the same trouble.


They have the advantage of Minato's teleportation.


> Madara said he'd stop playing for a bit. However he didn't go at full force, that's why he was happy when he saw Hashirama.
> He didn't even see Naruto as threatening enough to use clones against him.


Madara never said he was 'playing'. He said 'Guess I will take you seriously' and fought Naruto like that. Stop downplaying Naruto's performance.




> That won't destroy Edo Madara. Also it is Ninjutsu... Preta Path can do its thing.


A Bijudama equal in power to Five Biju wouldn't destroy it? And Preta Path has NO fucking feats that come close to absorbing a Bijudama, the chakra is just too heavy for it to do so.



NarutoX28 said:


> Not when PS or Wood Dragon is involved with the latter absorbing his Kurama Avatar.
> 
> @Saiyaman
> 
> Yes, Madara did toy with Naruto. He literally just left BM Naruto there struggling to overcome Wood Dragon while his focus shifted towards BM Bee and Gai. Naruto admittedly broke out of it, but it took a while for him to do so.


Madara said he got serious. Perfect Susano'o would be easily deflected by BM Naruto, superior feats and all that. And Naruto DID overcome Mokuton Ryu, he smashed its head in. If he didn't try to fricken wrestle it in the beginning, just taking out its head, he would have defeated it. But if he did that, we wouldn't have seen the effects-thus PIS was involved.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 10, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> So then he can only use lower tier Susanoo forms when he has Rinnegan active. That statement plus him not actually absorbing ninjutsu and using PS at the same time is proof enough he can't do it. He even said later in the manga that the Fake Rinnegan that he had as an Edo couldn't do what the real ones could.



Or he can just use any Susanoo and chose to use lower tier ones because he didn't need to use the upper tier one. You're making up this Rinnegan limitation, it wasn't implied at all. 

You want to use the statement... show me that Madara had Susanoo active when he failed to absorb Jinton. Then explain why he did it do well when Tsunade tried to set him up for a surprise Jinton ambush.



> Uuh no. Madara said that Hashirama was focusing too much power on the main body so his wood clones were weak and that was SM Hashirama who is waaaay above Madara. Edo people might have their chakra restored but splitting into clones limits the amount of power the bodies have.
> 
> Its like this. They might might have infinite chakra but if they split into clones and limit the power their edo body can hold then it cant restore it back to 100%, itll restore it back to however they split it. If they give 20% of their potential chakra to a clone then edo will only restore 80% of the main body's power. They cant just have a million clones of themselves at full power.



Hashirama was focusing all his power on a barrier which *constantly* needed to be maintained. Hashirama's chakra was always being drained, so whatever clones he made used left over chakra. 
Madara won't have that issue because he's not constantly streaming his chakra to another source like a barrier which requires maintenance.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, Naruto forcibly turned it off and then destroyed the technique by destroying the head. And then he instantly reformed it and kept fighting. Mokuryu got countered.
> 
> Minato can just teleport out of it too.



Naruto turned his Bijuu Mode off because it became useless. Then he broke the Mokuryu when Madara became more concerned with killing Bee and Gai. 

Mokuryu being countered means Naruto won't have had to deactivate his Kurama avatar... that didn't happen.

Minato can only teleport if only his Bijuu avatar is touched... if he is touched, then he's out.



> Last I checked, Naruto defeated two Rinnegan users. Three counting Obito.



All of whom didn't use the Rinnegan at full force. 
Obito didn't use a single Six Paths jutsu, Pain Rikudou didn't even have two key Paths there. Madara didn't even use anything beyond Preta Path.

Not a good record. The last time someone used all the Rinnegan's powers at once, Kabuto, Naruto was helpless. In fact Sasuke shut down Naruto with a Rinnegan power, then the latter was told he was lucky that Sasuke couldn't use Preta and other jutsu together since he was a rookie.

Naruto himself admitted Limbo Madara wouldn't be beaten without Sasuke backing him up. When Madara 3 powers, CT, Limbo and MT... Naruto was done. Even when he had back up.

Naruto's track record is amazing when you consider dumbed down Rinnegan users. When you consider Naruto having to face them when the game is upped... he's always lost out. 



> Naruto showed he can counter Preta remember? What's stopping a Frog Kata from working on Madara again?



God Realm. Naruto's not fighting Pain Rikudou whereby this frog kata business can work. 
God Realm will catch him off guard when he tries to go into Taijutsu, Demon Realm may too... which'll be extremely powerful coming from the original Rinnegan user.
That's even counting the fact that Susanoo and Mokuton will make Naruto's life hard if he tried CQC.



> They have the advantage of Minato's teleportation.



So their solution is to run away from Madara?



> Madara never said he was 'playing'. He said 'Guess I will take you seriously' and fought Naruto like that. Stop downplaying Naruto's performance.



You're overestimating Naruto's performance. Madara defines going full force, going all out, when he has to resort to Perfect Susanoo. He didn't need to go all out against Naruto. 
He just decided to shut down Naruto's main trump card, Bijuu power. That's as far as Madara went all out.

Naruto never made Madara serious like Hashirama did. Minato's chakra was sensed by Madara, even Naruto's... but still Madara only found Hashirama's chakra worth fighting.



> A Bijudama equal in power to Five Biju wouldn't destroy it? And Preta Path has NO fucking feats that come close to absorbing a Bijudama, the chakra is just too heavy for it to do so.



Lets not pretend we didn't see the manga and databook. Fact: all sources say Preta Path negates any chakra. 
This "too heavy" nonsense is something you've made up; Bijuu dama is chakra. Preta Path touches jutsu, reverses the chakra flow and absorbs it. 

That's how it works, now if Minato and co are relying on Bijuu bombs and we've got to deny what the Preta Path actually does for them to stand a chance. It doesn't look good for the Gokage. 

Don't confuse Samehada's limit for Preta Path's. 



> Madara said he got serious. Perfect Susano'o would be easily deflected by BM Naruto, superior feats and all that. And Naruto DID overcome Mokuton Ryu, he smashed its head in. If he didn't try to fricken wrestle it in the beginning, just taking out its head, he would have defeated it. But if he did that, we wouldn't have seen the effects-thus PIS was involved.



You'd be hard pressed trying to convince anyone that Naruto's 50%, even Minato's 50% Kurama would be able to take Madara's Rinnegan enhanced PS. Especially since we know the thing can fly.


----------



## Kyu (May 10, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Kurama roar would blow the pollen right back at Madara.



Will it affect a zombie?




> Yes, it got wrecked when Madara stopped caring about suppressing Naruto.



Yet it had a firm lock on Naruto before getting smashed into sawdust.

The sole reason wd got as far as it did is because Naruto decided to fight it in close combat instead of slicing it down the middle using FRS/COFRS or merely doing what his Biju did in the past.



> So Minato will be running away from Madara?



No. It's called dodging. 



> Minato can't hide from multiple dragons,



He won't need to. A casual bijudama from Kurama blew Wood Dragon to shit without even detonating.

Like I said, the dragon is an overhyped jutsu with a shit track record against Kurama and his Jinchuriki.



> potentially produced by many Madara clones, going just for him.



Clones countered by clones.




> That is, if Minato's Bijuu powers will really be an issue. With Preta



Agreed. That'll pose quite the dilemma.



> Deva Path,



CT is nuked. 

ST is sent back straight to his face.

CST will help rid the land of scattered FTG kunai and send Minato and company back a few hundred meters, but it isn't taking the main threat out.



> alongside Susanoo...


The same type of fox cloak tanked Juubi's claw swipes.

Minato will be alright.

That is if he can get around preta with fūinjutsu or jikūkan ninjutsu. 



> Asura Paths make it obsolete.



Asura path isn't doing a goddamn thing against a Kurama avatar.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 10, 2015)

Please tell me how PS is gonna damage the Kurama avatar when it tanked a Juubi beam and only lost a few tails, and those same tails were able to fend off chakra arms from Juubito who tore down the kages barrier.

Rinnegan also does not enhance Susanoo in any way. It was never shown to.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 10, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Yet it had a firm lock on Naruto before getting smashed into sawdust.



The sole reason wd got as far as it did is because Naruto decided to fight it in close combat instead of slicing it down the middle using FRS/COFRS or merely doing what his Biju did in the past.[/QUOTE]

Look at everything... Naruto had to exit the avatar: Link removed

Fighting with FRS is useless with a Preta Path user as your foe.



> No. It's called dodging.



So he's going to dodge and never attack. 



> He won't need to. A casual bijudama from Kurama blew Wood Dragon to shit without even detonating.
> 
> Like I said, the dragon is an overhyped jutsu with a shit track record against Kurama and his Jinchuriki.



You showed that 1 dragon, which was giving 100% Kurama, not the 50% Minato has, some trouble. I said multiple dragons.

Only one dragon was used on Kurama 100% and the Jinchuriki had to exit his Bijuu Mode to do anything after being caught.



> Clones countered by clones.



Unlike the other characters ITT, their chakra levels will actually suffer making clones. Each clone will be of less quality compared to the last. Madara won't have that issue with Edo Tensei chakra top ups. 
Madara's clones can actually act as Pain Rikudou with shared vision, only they'll retain all his powers.


> CT is nuked.
> 
> ST is sent back straight to his face.
> 
> CST will help rid the land of scattered FTG kunai and send Minato and company back a few hundred meters, but it isn't taking the main threat out.



A Madara CT could be a different story, dude can use multiple CTs. 

You used the *weakest* ST to demonstrate your point; distanced God Realm. 
We saw how KN9 aka KCM Naruto handled ST from a real user, not a puppet... he got blown away along with Bee while Itachi became dust. 

CST will have an even more devastating effect. A lot of the shinobi, without enhancements like a Bijuu will not be able to handle the sheer force of CST, or a powerful ST, alongside the additional damage they'll incur when they slam into things. 

If Madara's ST was going to be as weak as God Realm Pain, who doesn't even have all of an emaciated Nagato's chakra focused into him, then you have a point.


> The same type of fox cloak tanked Juubi's claw swipes.
> 
> Minato will be alright.
> 
> That is if he can get around preta with fūinjutsu or jikūkan ninjutsu.



You're saying Madara will only ever use Yasaka's Magatama?

Minato doesn't have any seals which will get him by Preta Path. He's only got Shikifuujin, which the Rinnegan most likely will see and may be able to counter with ST. Seeing as ST seems to be the product of having _all_ elements as per the databook.
Or, I suppose he could use Izanagi... and the Rinnegan doesn't seem to go blind considering Madara's blind eye was restored upon getting the Rinnegan.




> Asura path isn't doing a goddamn thing against a Kurama avatar.



For some bizarre reason you:
- Assume Madara's use of Asura Path won't be superior to Nagato's which was superior to Pain's. 
- Assume Madara will use one power at a time without using a bunch of them simultaneously. Not even Nagato did that. 

That isn't including all the extra Mokuton jutsu Madara saw with his Sharingan.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Please tell me how PS is gonna damage the Kurama avatar when it tanked a Juubi beam and only lost a few tails, and those same tails were able to fend off chakra arms from Juubito who tore down the kages barrier.
> 
> Rinnegan also does not enhance Susanoo in any way. It was never shown to.



You're telling me PS is not going to be able to do anything? Think about this, if by your admission, Rinnegan doesn't enhance Susanoo, why did it take Naruto's Rikudou Senjutsu Kyuubi avatar to challenge PS?

The EMS enhances the user's power. The next step, the Rinnegan, will do the same. Also it does actually have a chakra enhancing effect, Obito mentioned the Rinnegan's potent chakra. Sasuke's Susanoo possessed the quality to fight off MT because of it. 

As we know, stronger chakra = stronger jutsu. That's why SM and Kurama Rasengan tend to be stronger than normal Rasengan. 

Madara has several options, he can use PS, the Buddha statue or even the Mokujin. He might even make Mokubunshins to use what he himself doesn't use.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto turned his Bijuu Mode off because it became useless. Then he broke the Mokuryu when Madara became more concerned with killing Bee and Gai.


If it was so useless, why did Naruto immediately reform it?


> Mokuryu being countered means Naruto won't have had to deactivate his Kurama avatar... that didn't happen.


If Naruto wasn't affected by PIS, he would have destroyed the head just like mindless Kurama did.


> Minato can only teleport if only his Bijuu avatar is touched... if he is touched, then he's out.


...he'd teleport with the Avatar. 




> All of whom didn't use the Rinnegan at full force.
> Obito didn't use a single Six Paths jutsu, Pain Rikudou didn't even have two key Paths there. Madara didn't even use anything beyond Preta Path.


Have you ever thought that Madara doesn't have anymore path abilities besides Preta and Deva?


> Not a good record. The last time someone used all the Rinnegan's powers at once, Kabuto, Naruto was helpless. In fact Sasuke shut down Naruto with a Rinnegan power, then the latter was told he was lucky that Sasuke couldn't use Preta and other jutsu together since he was a rookie.


Naruto was then able to beat Sasuke despite that. 


> Naruto himself admitted Limbo Madara wouldn't be beaten without Sasuke backing him up. When Madara 3 powers, CT, Limbo and MT... Naruto was done. Even when he had back up.


...how was Naruto done when he didn't even use his full power against Madara? And no, Naruto wanted him and Sasuke to defeat Madara since the Six Path - Chibaku Tensei would have freed all the Biju simultaneously. Both Naruto and Sasuke were kicking Madara's ass with ease. Hell Naruto effortlessly destroyed all of Madara's Chibaku Tensei while simultaneously beating the crap out of his Limbo. Honestly, MT doesn't even come into play when Naruto is serious.

Naruto with Six Path Sage Mode was able to blitz, slash her limb off, and nearly extract all the Biju at the same time from fucking Kaguya, so Madara would have been easily beaten. All without Naruto's full power being used.


> Naruto's track record is amazing when you consider dumbed down Rinnegan users. When you consider Naruto having to face them when the game is upped... he's always lost out.


Naruto defeated the best Rinnegan user in the manga, nothing 'dumbed down'. You're kind of exaggerating and downplaying hi.




> God Realm. Naruto's not fighting Pain Rikudou whereby this frog kata business can work.


Shame Madara never shown the likes of Shinra Tensei huh?


> God Realm will catch him off guard when he tries to go into Taijutsu, Demon Realm may too... which'll be extremely powerful coming from the original Rinnegan user.
> That's even counting the fact that Susanoo and Mokuton will make Naruto's life hard if he tried CQC.


Madara never showed he could use Deva Path's Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei (and he can redirect it with a Roar, remember what happened when Deva tried against KN6?) nor Asura Path, so giving him feats 

Susano'o and Mokuton would kind of be shredded from the sheer speed Naruto uses.


> So their solution is to run away from Madara?


No, just dodging the attacks and getting him into a corner. 




> You're overestimating Naruto's performance. Madara defines going full force, going all out, when he has to resort to Perfect Susanoo. He didn't need to go all out against Naruto.
> He just decided to shut down Naruto's main trump card, Bijuu power. That's as far as Madara went all out.


Perfect Susanoo is useless against BM Naruto or BM Minato. He can deflect the swings with his tails after all and has greater firepower than Perfect Susanoo. And if he truly shut down Naruto's 'trump card' Naruto wouldn't have been able to reform his Kurama Avatar afterwards.


> Naruto never made Madara serious like Hashirama did. Minato's chakra was sensed by Madara, even Naruto's... but still Madara only found Hashirama's chakra worth fighting.


Has it ever occurred to you Madara just wanted a rematch against Hashirama? What's next, Sage Mode Hashirama stronger than Six Path Sage Mode Naruto since Madara didn't want to fight Naruto in the latter?




> Lets not pretend we didn't see the manga and databook. Fact: all sources say Preta Path negates any chakra.
> This "too heavy" nonsense is something you've made up; Bijuu dama is chakra. Preta Path touches jutsu, reverses the chakra flow and absorbs it.


And Preta Path hasn't shown it can absorb a mountain buster, much less a attack strong enough that it equals five Biju's output at once. And Bijudama ARE heavy, remember, black and white chakra is EXTREMELY dense. 

You're applying a no-limits fallacy onto Preta Path.


> That's how it works, now if Minato and co are relying on Bijuu bombs and we've got to deny what the Preta Path actually does for them to stand a chance. It doesn't look good for the Gokage.
> 
> Don't confuse Samehada's limit for Preta Path's.


Stop using a no-limits fallacy for Preta Path then. Preta Path has never absorbed a Bijudama or an mountain buster of equal power, thus it can't until it shows the feat. Its like saying Itachi's Yata Mirror can block anything, you're doing the same thing.




> You'd be hard pressed trying to convince anyone that Naruto's 50%, even Minato's 50% Kurama would be able to take Madara's Rinnegan enhanced PS. Especially since we know the thing can fly.


Dude, BM Naruto could deflect a fucking Juubi Bijudama with his tails. Madara's Perfect Susanoo would literally be unable to get through the shroud. Madara has never shown the ability to fly with his Perfect Susanoo, EVERY performance with it has been grounded. Only Sasuke's and Kakashi's can. Hell Madara's PS 'wings' are far too small to do flight, compared to Sasuke and Kakashi's.


----------



## Kyu (May 10, 2015)

> Fighting with FRS is useless with a Preta Path user as your foe.



When has Preta ever been used together with a long ranged offensive jutsu? 




> So he's going to dodge and never attack.



He'll move out of the way and blow it to smithereens or better yet shoot it down before it touches him.




> You showed that 1 dragon, which was giving 100% Kurama, not the 50% Minato has,



Not this crap again.

100% Kurama >> 50% Kurama

BM Minato >> 50% Kurama

A perfect jinchuriki's Biju Mode is vastly superior to a Biju by itself - this becomes apparent when BM Naruto endures Juubi's Lazerdama - something 100% Kurama wouldn't be capable of pulling off. 

_If_ there is a difference in power it is most certainly negligible.




> some trouble. I said multiple dragons.



Good thing he can shoot off multiple BD then.



> Only one dragon was used on Kurama 100% and the Jinchuriki had to exit his Bijuu Mode to do anything after being caught.



BD to the face solves his wood lizard problem



> Unlike the other characters ITT, their chakra levels will actually suffer making clones. Each clone will be of less quality compared to the last. Madara won't have that issue with Edo Tensei chakra top ups.
> Madara's clones can actually act as Pain Rikudou with shared vision, only they'll retain all his powers.



Teleporting clones are still a hassle unless Madara immediately opts for a field altering jutsu.



> A Madara CT could be a different story, dude can use multiple CTs.



A feat only done as a Juubi Jin w/ the Shinju absorbed on top of the Sage Mode he already stole.

Edo Madara's got a phony Rinnegan and can't utilize its full power. 



> You used the *weakest* ST to demonstrate your point; distanced God Realm.
> We saw how KN9 aka KCM Naruto handled ST from a real user, not a puppet... he got blown away along with Bee while Itachi became dust.



Yeah a nerfed KCM with his chakra split 12 different ways. 'KN9' my ass. KN6 eats that version of KCM for breakfast.

Even then, the ST you mentioned failed to incapacitate or inflict any notable damage whatsoever on him and _base_ Bee.





> You're saying Madara will only ever use Yasaka's Magatama?



...No. When have I ever said that? I'm referring to his perfect susano'o sword.



> Minato doesn't have any seals which will get him by Preta Path.



Shishō Fūin says hello.



> He's only got Shikifuujin, which the Rinnegan most likely will see and may be able to counter with ST.


 

According to Minato, a Jin can't use Reaper Death Seal. So kinda pointless to bring it up in the first place.




> For some bizarre reason you:
> - Assume Madara's use of Asura Path won't be superior to Nagato's which was superior to Pain's.



Enough to damage a cloak that tanks attacks that dwarf mountain busters? Don't kid yourself.

Being stronger than Nagato's isn't saying a whole lot when his wouldn't put down Gyuki or 50% Kurama - let alone Kyuubi Minato. 

Featless missiles aren't doing shit to an opponent of this caliber.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Please tell me how PS is gonna damage the Kurama avatar when it tanked a Juubi beam and only lost a few tails, and those same tails were able to fend off chakra arms from Juubito who tore down the kages barrier.
> 
> Rinnegan also does not enhance Susanoo in any way. It was never shown to.



 Same reason why Sasuke's Inferior PS can likely stalemate a stronger BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar.

 PS likely does damage it, especially when we consider it's more of a piercing attack rather than a blunt force.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Same reason why Sasuke's Inferior PS can likely stalemate a stronger BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar.
> 
> PS likely does damage it, especially when we consider it's more of a piercing attack rather than a blunt force.


Why would Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o be weaker than Madara's? They should be pretty much equal

And nothing Perfect Susanoo has done can suggest that it can get past BM Naruto's tails.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why would Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o be weaker than Madara's? They should be pretty much equal
> 
> And nothing Perfect Susanoo has done can suggest that it can get past BM Naruto's tails.



 Because Sasuke's Susano'o was never stabilized. 

 Sasuke's PS was portrayed to be on par with BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar which should likely be above BM Minato's own Kurama Avatar. It's also important to note that Sasuke's PS always stalemates with Naruto's own Kurama Avatar.

 Madara's PS is Stabilized while Sasuke's is not, so therefore he should be able to muscle through BM Minato's own Kurama Avatar.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because Sasuke's Susano'o was never stabilized.


...how do you know that? The only time EMS Sasuke used Perfect Susanoo was when he used Majestic Attire - Susanoo on Naruto's Kurama Avatar. With the exact same level of skill Madara did.


> Sasuke's PS was portrayed to be on par with BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar which should likely be above BM Minato's own Kurama Avatar. It's also important to note that Sasuke's PS always stalemates with Naruto's own Kurama Avatar.


First off-fighting side by side does NOT make it equal. We know Perfect Susanoo in _general_ (minus Six Path Powered ones) is inferior to that of Naruto's Biju Mode and Biju Sage Mode. 


> Madara's PS is Stabilized while Sasuke's is not, so therefore he should be able to muscle through BM Minato's own Kurama Avatar.


Madara's Perfect Susanoo has inferior feats to BM Naruto, BM Minato, and BSM Naruto in terms of every area. He himself put it equal in power to a Tailed Beast. BM Naruto? Equal in power to *five.*


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 10, 2015)

Why does every sentence need to be quoted as opposed to the train thought itself. It makes responding to you guys extremely tedious.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why does every sentence need to be quoted as opposed to the train thought itself. It makes responding to you guys extremely tedious.


Since we're addressing you point by point.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 10, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're telling me PS is not going to be able to do anything? Think about this, if by your admission, Rinnegan doesn't enhance Susanoo, why did it take Naruto's Rikudou Senjutsu Kyuubi avatar to challenge PS?
> 
> The EMS enhances the user's power. The next step, the Rinnegan, will do the same. Also it does actually have a chakra enhancing effect, Obito mentioned the Rinnegan's potent chakra. Sasuke's Susanoo possessed the quality to fight off MT because of it.
> 
> ...



Dude. Madara cannot use the the buddha. Thats SM Hashirama's technique who is basically equal to the fucking Juubi, a level that Madara is nowhere near till he is revived and get his Rinnegan. Rinnegan has never shown to enhance Susanoo. When Sasuke got his he got a huge power boost from the sages chakra and all that so that doesn't prove anything about strengthening sus.

Naruto in BM was above Sasuke with EMS, let alone BSM. You could even say that Naruto and Sasuke working together with friendship bs is stronger than 100% Kurama with Madara's PS since they beat Juubito who was stronger than Hashirama by a lot. So anything about Madara's PS taking on Naruto or Minato in BM is stupid


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 11, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Dude. Madara cannot use the the buddha. Thats SM Hashirama's technique who is basically equal to the fucking Juubi, a level that Madara is nowhere near till he is revived and get his Rinnegan. Rinnegan has never shown to enhance Susanoo. When Sasuke got his he got a huge power boost from the sages chakra and all that so that doesn't prove anything about strengthening sus.
> 
> Naruto in BM was above Sasuke with EMS, let alone BSM. You could even say that Naruto and Sasuke working together with friendship bs is stronger than 100% Kurama with Madara's PS since they beat Juubito who was stronger than Hashirama by a lot. So anything about Madara's PS taking on Naruto or Minato in BM is stupid


Shinsusenju wasn't Juubi level at all man...lets not get ridiculous.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 11, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinsusenju wasn't Juubi level at all man...lets not get ridiculous.



I wasnt saying it was. I was saying SM Hashirama was, with him suppressing it pretty decisively in SM and maintaining the barrier and making clones.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...how do you know that? The only time EMS Sasuke used Perfect Susanoo was when he used Majestic Attire - Susanoo on Naruto's Kurama Avatar. With the exact same level of skill Madara did.



 Sure, Sasuke managed to fuse with Kurama as effectively as Madara did, but that doesn't imply EMS Sasuke's power rivaled Madara or there would've been an indication of that similar to when Tobirama indicated that Sasuke would someday reach Madara's level.

 There's also the fact that Sasuke's PS was UnStabilized considering his Kyuubisano'o resembles Madara's Kyuubisano'o prior to Stabilizing his PS. Logic dictates Stabilized PS > UnStabilized PS.



> First off-fighting side by side does NOT make it equal. We know Perfect Susanoo in _general_ (minus Six Path Powered ones) is inferior to that of Naruto's Biju Mode and Biju Sage Mode.



 Actually, no we don't. Madara's weaker PS tanked a Bijuudama from 100% Kurama without even receiving a scratch. Perfect Susano'o being weaker than Naruto's BM is inaccurate. 



> Madara's Perfect Susanoo has inferior feats to BM Naruto, BM Minato, and BSM Naruto in terms of every area. He himself put it equal in power to a Tailed Beast. BM Naruto? Equal in power to *five.*



 He referred to Kurama as that was the only Bijuu he had ever faced and feats suggest he was referring to Kurama.

 BM Naruto is literally half the man 100% Kurama is. 

 Inferior feats is a baseless claim which you haven't proven. Madara's Weaker Susano'o tanked a Bijuudama up-close. His PS could outright counter all of Base Hashirama's arsenal with ease and can actually stalemate SM Hashirama w/o Buddha. That's far superior than what BM Naruto has done by far.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure, Sasuke managed to fuse with Kurama as effectively as Madara did, but that doesn't imply EMS Sasuke's power rivaled Madara or there would've been an indication of that similar to when Tobirama indicated that Sasuke would someday reach Madara's level.


Tobirama said that seeing the V3 Susanoo Sasuke used. He had no idea Sasuke could level his Susano'o up to Perfect Form.


> There's also the fact that Sasuke's PS was UnStabilized considering his Kyuubisano'o resembles Madara's Kyuubisano'o prior to Stabilizing his PS. Logic dictates Stabilized PS > UnStabilized PS.


...what?

These look the exact same thing for christ's sake!


> Actually, no we don't. Madara's weaker PS tanked a Bijuudama from 100% Kurama without even receiving a scratch. Perfect Susano'o being weaker than Naruto's BM is inaccurate.


A 100% Bijudama from a mindless Kurama who couldn't control his own power. It was equal in power to those used of the other Biju, NOT equal to that of the Juubi Bijudama NOR equal to that of those BM Naruto regularly produced.




> He referred to Kurama as that was the only Bijuu he had ever faced and feats suggest he was referring to Kurama.


He said a Tailed Beast. Nothing referred to Kurama. Kurama's shown superior power to everything Perfect Susanoo has shown.


> BM Naruto is literally half the man 100% Kurama is.


Not even. A perfect Jinchuriki controls the power far better than a Biju does. Its Kurama's Power + Naruto's Power. Remember the mixing of the chakra? 

Naruto showed stronger Bijudama's than 100% mindless Kurama. He has all the jutsus he can use. 


> Inferior feats is a baseless claim which you haven't proven. Madara's Weaker Susano'o tanked a Bijuudama up-close. His PS could outright counter all of Base Hashirama's arsenal with ease and can actually stalemate SM Hashirama w/o Buddha. That's far superior than what BM Naruto has done by far.


Madara tanked a standard powered Bijudama. Nothing like the supercharged ones Naruto can spam. 

BM Naruto has cut the Juubi's tails. He has survived battles with the Juubi. He has even tanked the Juubi's Bijudama. He could deflect Bijudama's by just tapping them or blow away five Biju at once with a single roar. Then BM Naruto could add Sage Mode to the mix to quadruple everything's power.

You're downplaying Naruto.


----------



## RBL (May 11, 2015)

Minato solos.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 12, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since we're addressing you point by point.



No, it just makes responding totally tedious. 



Kyu said:


> When has Preta ever been used together with a long ranged offensive jutsu?



We've seen Preta used alongside Human Path. That alone nullifies the idea that it cannot be used with other jutsu. Unless they're rookies like Sasuke. 



> He'll move out of the way and blow it to smithereens or better yet shoot it down before it touches him.



Shame he didn't do this sort of shit to end Madara so that Hashirama could help. Or even do it to end Black Zetsu before he went into Obito.

You're overestimating Minato's speed.


> Not this crap again.
> 
> 100% Kurama >> 50% Kurama
> 
> ...



This "crap" is a weakness of your point. Lacking half of Kurama's power is a big thing when Kurama's full power accomplished what you think Minato can do with half its power. Kurama was totally under control of Madara, so he wasn't a mindless beast. 

Okay, we're done here. You think a Jinchuriki with 50% Kurama can take a Juubi lazer dama and that 100% Kurama won't.... yeah, I'm done.



> BD to the face solves his wood lizard problem



Doesn't stop Madara from making more. Madara doesn't have the chakra constraint Minaot has. 



> Teleporting clones are still a hassle unless Madara immediately opts for a field altering jutsu.



Kage Bunshins using Hiraishin are slower than Minato using Hiraishin. 
Madara and his clones are capable of using field altering jutsu... that is a lot of field altering. 


> A feat only done as a Juubi Jin w/ the Shinju absorbed on top of the Sage Mode he already stole.
> 
> Edo Madara's got a phony Rinnegan and can't utilize its full power.



A feat which was done by the Rinnegan's original owner who supercedes all the users of his own eye. Unless you think Obito was talking out of his ass, Madara's Rinnegan feats would surpass Nagato's. Using multiple CT is one of those feats. 

Edo Madara might not be able to pump as much firepower into the multiple CT as Juubidara. However it doesn't mean he can't do multiple CT which far surpass Nagato's CT. 



> Yeah a nerfed KCM with his chakra split 12 different ways. 'KN9' my ass. KN6 eats that version of KCM for breakfast.
> 
> Even then, the ST you mentioned failed to incapacitate or inflict any notable damage whatsoever on him and _base_ Bee.



Naruto using all of Kurama's chakra is basically KN9. Unless you want to be telling me KN6>KN9, there's nothing to be said here.
Wait... okay I'm done here too... now you're saying KCM, which is basically KN9 is weaker than KN6.

KCM, even this nerfed one, still blows KN6 out of the water. Naruto just couldn't use clones. That is it. Nothing about his durability as a Jinchuriki.

You severely undermine base Bee's durability. Dude tanked a piercing attack like Chidori and Juugo's attack as if nothing happened to him. That's a pro for Bee, not a neg for ST. Now if you're gonna imply that Bee is a fragile guy and ST not harming him means ST is weak... we're also going to be done here on this point. 

Itachi got turned to dust. Basically KN9 couldn't counter the ST not used by a chakra dispersed Pain, Bee couldn't either. Your point of using the weakest user of Shinra Tensei (God Realm Pain without all of Nagato's chakra) failed. 




> ...No. When have I ever said that? I'm referring to his perfect susano'o sword.



So Madara is only ever going to use his sword. Madara doesn't have any other jutsu he can use... is that what you're really saying?



> Shishō Fūin says hello.



Shame that Madara won't just stand there and say hello back and does nothing while Minato just seals him... do you seriously think Madara won't do a damn thing? Or do you think he'll be pinned down as easily as Kurama with his collection of powers?



> According to Minato, a Jin can't use Reaper Death Seal. So kinda pointless to bring it up in the first place.



Well a potential trump card is gone now. Izanagi could still be used as a potential counter for the other seal, however.



> Enough to damage a cloak that tanks attacks that dwarf mountain busters? Don't kid yourself.
> 
> Being stronger than Nagato's isn't saying a whole lot when his wouldn't put down Gyuki or 50% Kurama - let alone Kyuubi Minato.
> 
> Featless missiles aren't doing shit to an opponent of this caliber.



The guy who says 50% Kurama can do more than 100% Kurama is faulting the idea that we can assume Madara's use of Demon Realm would be much better than Nagato's? Kyuubi Minato IS 50% Kurama too. 

Also do you think Madara will use jutsu one at a time, or combine their use.

None of the Kage are going to do a damn thing to him with their Ninjutsu, even with Kurama, due to the Preta Path. Without chakra attacks, they're forced to handle Madara who can use Demon Realm among other jutsu.

If they're tough enough, Madara will get his Susanoo to use some jutsu too.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If it was so useless, why did Naruto immediately reform it?



He didn't reform full Bijuu Mode till Madara was taken out, temporarily. 



> If Naruto wasn't affected by PIS, he would have destroyed the head just like mindless Kurama did.



Naruto didn't have 100% Kurama. If Madara wasn't affected by PIS, he'd have used more than one dragon. Alongside more Mokuton which was strong enough to suppress Bijuu, along with Bee. 



> ...he'd teleport with the Avatar.



Read what I typed again:  Minato can only teleport if only his Bijuu avatar is touched... if he is touched, then he's out. 

He can teleport with the avatar if the avatar is touched. If Minato himself is touched, that won't happen.



> Have you ever thought that Madara doesn't have anymore path abilities besides Preta and Deva?



He taught the Paths to Obito and he's the original Rinnegan user. Of course he has the Paths. Denying Madara has the Rinnegan jutsu is like assuming he's inferior to Nagato with their use. Hint: he had a jutsu Nagato didn't seem to have, Limbo and used CT much easier than Nagato did.



> Naruto was then able to beat Sasuke despite that.



As Kurama said, Sasuke was a rookie. If Sasuke wasn't a rookie with it, Naruto would've lost. 



> ...how was Naruto done when he didn't even use his full power against Madara? And no, Naruto wanted him and Sasuke to defeat Madara since the Six Path - Chibaku Tensei would have freed all the Biju simultaneously. Both Naruto and Sasuke were kicking Madara's ass with ease. Hell Naruto effortlessly destroyed all of Madara's Chibaku Tensei while simultaneously beating the crap out of his Limbo. Honestly, MT doesn't even come into play when Naruto is serious.
> 
> Naruto with Six Path Sage Mode was able to blitz, slash her limb off, and nearly extract all the Biju at the same time from fucking Kaguya, so Madara would have been easily beaten. All without Naruto's full power being used.



Naruto admitted he's not beating Madara alone, hence Sasuke entered. We saw what happened when Madara entered full force. All this with PIS not letting him use Mokuton, EMS or other Rinnegan powers. 

Make a thread of Six Paths SM Naruto vs Juubidara. Look how that'll go.

He was able to blitz Kaguya once, never again. If he did it several times it'd mean something. If Naruto hadn't consistently lost to Rinnegan users *going at him with full force without PIS*, this'd be debatable. 



> Naruto defeated the best Rinnegan user in the manga, nothing 'dumbed down'. You're kind of exaggerating and downplaying hi.



When you show me that the Rinnegan users weren't using difference making powers or Naruto didn't need guys like Itachi to bail him out... or guys like Sasuke to take one eyed Rinnegan users. Then you can say I'm downplaying Naruto.

You're overestimating and exaggerating his record. If he had always countered the Preta Path, which nullifies Ninjutsu and was able to overcome jutsu like Limbo while at the same time fighting other powers like God Realm and Demon Realm... then it means something. If he had to fight dumbed down versions whereby no full force was done... he's not got a good record. Especially when one of the arguments for his record include me having to assume Obito/Madara had no access to Rinnegan powers despite Madara knowing and teaching Obito the jutsu.



> Shame Madara never shown the likes of Shinra Tensei huh?



Its a shame for you he taught Obito the Six Paths jutsu. Unless you have a totally different definition of Six Paths jutsu than the manga.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 12, 2015)

> Madara never showed he could use Deva Path's Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei (and he can redirect it with a Roar, remember what happened when Deva tried against KN6?) nor Asura Path, so giving him feats
> 
> Susano'o and Mokuton would kind of be shredded from the sheer speed Naruto uses.
> 
> No, just dodging the attacks and getting him into a corner.



He taught Obito the jutsu. It says a lot about your stance if you have to assume Madara doesn't have Rinnegan powers despite having the Rinnegan. 

Moreover it says a lot about your stance when you're using a Shinra Tensei from the weakest user, a distanced God Realm, who doesn't have all of an emaciated Nagato's chakra being pumped into him.

Susanoo and Mokuton *weren't* shredded by the speed Naruto uses. 

He can't be getting Madara into a corner when he Madara nullifies Ninjutsu with Preta Path and all his combined powers making CQC suicide. Doesn't help that he can make clones which only certain people like himself and Hashirama can tell the difference. 



> Perfect Susanoo is useless against BM Naruto or BM Minato. He can deflect the swings with his tails after all and has greater firepower than Perfect Susanoo. And if he truly shut down Naruto's 'trump card' Naruto wouldn't have been able to reform his Kurama Avatar afterwards.
> 
> Has it ever occurred to you Madara just wanted a rematch against Hashirama? What's next, Sage Mode Hashirama stronger than Six Path Sage Mode Naruto since Madara didn't want to fight Naruto in the latter?



You're forgetting which Kurama Mode actually did this aren't you? It was the Juubi-style Kurama. At the very least, maybe 100% Kurama can. 
That was to take a Rinnegan Susanoo. 

Naruto reformed the Kurama avatar when Madara was knocked out, then again when Madara stopped doing anything and let Obito take control. 

Madara only wanted very strong opponents. That's why he stayed to test the Gokage... only after some time he thought he can go at them full force. But they got stomped. Same deal happened with Naruto, except Naruto's BM got shut down. 
Hashirama was on another level. 

In case you didn't realise, it was only when he got Six Path Sage Mode, Naruto was able to exceed Hashirama's power. Not even BSM Naruto could touch Hashirama. 



> And Preta Path hasn't shown it can absorb a mountain buster, much less a attack strong enough that it equals five Biju's output at once. And Bijudama ARE heavy, remember, black and white chakra is EXTREMELY dense.
> 
> You're applying a no-limits fallacy onto Preta Path.
> 
> Stop using a no-limits fallacy for Preta Path then. Preta Path has never absorbed a Bijudama or an mountain buster of equal power, thus it can't until it shows the feat. Its like saying Itachi's Yata Mirror can block anything, you're doing the same thing.



Read the damn manga and databook: there IS no limit on Preta Path. You're attempting some special pleading for certain characters vs Preta Path.

Till Minato, Naruto, Onoki or whoever in this thread stops using chakra as their main source: Preta will always be a counter. That's why Madara and even Shikaku concluded that Ninjutsu against a seasoned Rinnegan user isn't plausible. I'm going to go ahead and take their word over yours considering they're consistent with what we've seen and what the manga and databook says.

The Mirror can block whatever it is facing. Its main weakness is the parts it doesn't block. Preta Path's weakness is it can't absorb CQC; but then there is another set of Rinnegan, EMS and Mokuton powers to deal with. 



> Dude, BM Naruto could deflect a fucking Juubi Bijudama with his tails. Madara's Perfect Susanoo would literally be unable to get through the shroud. Madara has never shown the ability to fly with his Perfect Susanoo, EVERY performance with it has been grounded. Only Sasuke's and Kakashi's can. Hell Madara's PS 'wings' are far too small to do flight, compared to Sasuke and Kakashi's.



When you give me an actual reason to assume PS, especially a Rinnegan enhanced one, has incredibly shitty defence, I'll consider. Considering Perfect Susanoo builds on a form of Susanoo which has Yata's mirror... it is very unlikely to have shitty defence like you're implying.

Read the databook, PS can fly. Madara just never had the need to. To be honest, with these Gokage, he probably wouldn't need to either, but the option is there if he couldn't. All PS wings are the same size.

Seriously if I have to assume Madara lacks powers he has like the flying function of PS and the various Rinnegan jutsu. And also assume things like a ST from the weakest user holds for all stronger users. It tells me that the Kage side of the argument is incredibly weak.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 12, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He didn't reform full Bijuu Mode till Madara was taken out, temporarily.


He could easily reform it.




> Naruto didn't have 100% Kurama. If Madara wasn't affected by PIS, he'd have used more than one dragon. Alongside more Mokuton which was strong enough to suppress Bijuu, along with Bee.


He didn't need 100% Kurama, BM Naruto showed far stronger feats than that and you know it.




> Read what I typed again:  Minato can only teleport if only his Bijuu avatar is touched... if he is touched, then he's out.
> 
> He can teleport with the avatar if the avatar is touched. If Minato himself is touched, that won't happen.


...the Avatar is connected TO Minato.




> He taught the Paths to Obito and he's the original Rinnegan user. Of course he has the Paths. Denying Madara has the Rinnegan jutsu is like assuming he's inferior to Nagato with their use. Hint: he had a jutsu Nagato didn't seem to have, Limbo and used CT much easier than Nagato did.


He only had the Rinnegan for a short amount of time. He couldn't have learned all the Rinnegan jutsu at all. He immediately transplanted it to Nagato. 




> As Kurama said, Sasuke was a rookie. If Sasuke wasn't a rookie with it, Naruto would've lost.


That's bullshit wanking and you know it. Naruto was shown to be far stronger than Sasuke the entire fight. He was suffering chakra exhaustion from fighting the entire war. He did the most against Kaguya. He was holding back against Sasuke the entire fight. Sasuke was weaker regardless of Rinnegan mastery. Sasuke himself realized this.




> Naruto admitted he's not beating Madara alone, hence Sasuke entered. We saw what happened when Madara entered full force. All this with PIS not letting him use Mokuton, EMS or other Rinnegan powers.


Thats because he wanted to extract the Biju all at once. 

PIS is only when you want a character to do something when he has no obligation to do. Naruto effortlessly countered EVERYTHING Madara threw at him and he wasn't even using his full power, so stop with the wanking Munboy, you're better than this.


> Make a thread of Six Paths SM Naruto vs Juubidara. Look how that'll go.


Most people other than you would say Naruto would win.


> He was able to blitz Kaguya once, never again. If he did it several times it'd mean something. If Naruto hadn't consistently lost to Rinnegan users *going at him with full force without PIS*, this'd be debatable.


Naruto has never consistently lost to Rinnegan users. That's bullshit. Blitzing Kaguya once is enough since she's the strongest being in the entire fucking manga. 




> When you show me that the Rinnegan users weren't using difference making powers or Naruto didn't need guys like Itachi to bail him out... or guys like Sasuke to take one eyed Rinnegan users. Then you can say I'm downplaying Naruto.


Naruto was weakened when fighting Nagato, remember, and acted stupidly instead of using the counters he knew.

And it wasn't the Rinnegan that was ever a problem against Madara or Obito. Stop acting like it was the deciding factor.


> You're overestimating and exaggerating his record. If he had always countered the Preta Path, which nullifies Ninjutsu and was able to overcome jutsu like Limbo while at the same time fighting other powers like God Realm and Demon Realm... then it means something. If he had to fight dumbed down versions whereby no full force was done... he's not got a good record. Especially when one of the arguments for his record include me having to assume Obito/Madara had no access to Rinnegan powers despite Madara knowing and teaching Obito the jutsu.


You are exaggerating his opponents to an insane amount and downplaying what Naruto has actually done. Demon Realm being useful at all post Pain? 




> Its a shame for you he taught Obito the Six Paths jutsu. Unless you have a totally different definition of Six Paths jutsu than the manga.


Then why didn't he show anything OTHER than the few path abilities he had? And how the fuck could he learn and master the Six Path of Pain abilities in the first fucking place *when he transplanted his Rinnegan to Nagato right after he awakened them?*



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He taught Obito the jutsu. It says a lot about your stance if you have to assume Madara doesn't have Rinnegan powers despite having the Rinnegan.


Then why did he not show anything else? And how could he even fucking learn these abilities when he gave his eyes away right after awakening?


> Moreover it says a lot about your stance when you're using a Shinra Tensei from the weakest user, a distanced God Realm, who doesn't have all of an emaciated Nagato's chakra being pumped into him.


>Sees Shinra Tensei being countered by a chakra roar
>Doesn't want to acknowledge it
>Claims Shinra Tensei can do didly squat against a fully unleashed Biju despite no evidence just because its a Rinnegan tech.


> Susanoo and Mokuton *weren't* shredded by the speed Naruto uses.


Mokuton Ryu was shredded by Naruto's speed. And are you saying Susano'o is more durable than a super dense Bijudama which BM Naruto could kick dozens of kilometers away?


> He can't be getting Madara into a corner when he Madara nullifies Ninjutsu with Preta Path and all his combined powers making CQC suicide. Doesn't help that he can make clones which only certain people like himself and Hashirama can tell the difference.


Preta Path can't absorb a Bijudama. No feats to support it. Unless you have one other than a Databook entry, you have no evidence.


]quote]You're forgetting which Kurama Mode actually did this aren't you? It was the Juubi-style Kurama. At the very least, maybe 100% Kurama can. 
That was to take a Rinnegan Susanoo. [/quote]
Taken down by Rinnegan Susanoo? You clearly have a severe bias against Naruto if you believe THAT crap. Biju Mode Naruto can deflect Pefect Susano'o's slashes all day and night due to tanking the Juubi Bijudama. 


> Naruto reformed the Kurama avatar when Madara was knocked out, then again when Madara stopped doing anything and let Obito take control.


Madara's an Edo Tensei, he can't be 'knocked out'. And he could reform it at any time.


> Madara only wanted very strong opponents. That's why he stayed to test the Gokage... only after some time he thought he can go at them full force. But they got stomped. Same deal happened with Naruto, except Naruto's BM got shut down.
> Hashirama was on another level.


No, he really wasn't. BM Naruto was close, BSM Naruto from feats was Hashirama's equal or slight superior. Stop downplaying Naruto.


> In case you didn't realise, it was only when he got Six Path Sage Mode, Naruto was able to exceed Hashirama's power. Not even BSM Naruto could touch Hashirama.


Funny how he touched and damaged a far stronger opponent then, huh? BSM Naruto is at or near Hashirama's level.




> Read the damn manga and databook: there IS no limit on Preta Path. You're attempting some special pleading for certain characters vs Preta Path.


*EVERYTHING HAS A FUCKING LIMIT*. What's next. Preta Path can absorb Superman's heat vision, a planet busting Kamehameha from Goku, or the Ultimate Nullifiers energy? 

Why are you using a no-limits fallacy?


> Till Minato, Naruto, Onoki or whoever in this thread stops using chakra as their main source: Preta will always be a counter. That's why Madara and even Shikaku concluded that Ninjutsu against a seasoned Rinnegan user isn't plausible. I'm going to go ahead and take their word over yours considering they're consistent with what we've seen and what the manga and databook says.


Show a fucking feat of it blocking a Mountain Buster at the very least, and you have an argument. Otherwise, its limit is Rasenshuriken or Jinton level, far lower than a Bijudama.


> The Mirror can block whatever it is facing. Its main weakness is the parts it doesn't block. Preta Path's weakness is it can't absorb CQC; but then there is another set of Rinnegan, EMS and Mokuton powers to deal with.


Everything has a limit. The Yata Mirror isn't invincible, nor is Preta Path. 




> When you give me an actual reason to assume PS, especially a Rinnegan enhanced one, has incredibly shitty defence, I'll consider. Considering Perfect Susanoo builds on a form of Susanoo which has Yata's mirror... it is very unlikely to have shitty defence like you're implying.


Show me Perfect Susanoo having Yata Mirror at all. Only Itachi has those weapons. Not only that, show me Rinnegan enhancing it or Madara saying his PS is even stronger with the Rinnegna, otherwise all you have is speculation.


> Read the databook, PS can fly. Madara just never had the need to. To be honest, with these Gokage, he probably wouldn't need to either, but the option is there if he couldn't. All PS wings are the same size.


Only two Perfect Susanoo have been able to fly in the manga, and Kishimoto showed exclusively why, their wings are bigger and aren't basically stubs like Madara's. Madara's has shown no ability to fly, thus his Perfect Susano'o cannot.

Not to mention considering how shitty the Databook was in this area, its like anti-Evidence.


> Seriously if I have to assume Madara lacks powers he has like the flying function of PS and the various Rinnegan jutsu. And also assume things like a ST from the weakest user holds for all stronger users. It tells me that the Kage side of the argument is incredibly weak.


No, or that Madara isn't as strong or as skilled as you claim he is. You've made only assumptions on WHAT he can do, exaggerated everything he did, ignore feats of other characters, and then use fricking no-limits fallacies to claim he can do everything.

Not a good debating style Munboy. You are better than this. Get out of the Mugen Tsukuyomi Madara put you in.


----------



## Rocky (May 12, 2015)

Minato's being underestimated here. He can give Madara high-extreme difficulty on his own. Unlike Naruto, Minato was already a high tier before Biju Mode, which is a crazy power up. Madara can't just wrap Minato up with a tree dragon and suck him dry. Yondaime can teleport...

Perfect Susano'o's sword can be blocked by the fox avatar's tails, and Minato's teammates can rest inside of it and remain safe. Madara has to outlast Minato, and I don't know if that can happen with four other Kage there to capitalize on any opening Minato creates by warping away Madara's Susano'o any time he contacts it.

Oh, and given Madara's tendency to dick around, he could find himself marked by Minato before Perfect Susano'o makes an appearance. How many times did the Gokage get their hands on Madara during the canon fight? Should that happen, Minato can just _cleave him in two_ whenever he feels like it, grab the out-of-commission Madara, and throw him into Onoki's Jinton beam, giving the Kage team plenty of time to seal him.


----------



## joshhookway (May 12, 2015)

kages have no way to beat limbo clones


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato's being underestimated here. He can give Madara high-extreme difficulty on his own. Unlike Naruto, Minato was already a high tier before Biju Mode, which is a crazy power up. Madara can't just wrap Minato up with a tree dragon and suck him dry. Yondaime can teleport...



 Well, there's always Wood Dragon absorbing the chakra from Minato's tags.


----------



## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

I doubt that the Hiraishin symbols themselves carry any of Minato's chakra. If that were the case, he'd be able to warp marked people to him instead of having to warp to them. 

Regardless, the wood dragon going off to try and target the dozens of marks Minato can spread around just opens it up to being attacked by things like Bijudama.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I doubt that the Hiraishin symbols themselves carry any of Minato's chakra. If that were the case, he'd be able to warp marked people to him instead of having to warp to them.
> 
> Regardless, the wood dragon going off to try and target the dozens of marks Minato can spread around just opens it up to being attacked by things like Bijudama.



 I'm just mentioning possibilities.

 To be honest, I'm not completely sure how Hiraishin and Minato's chakra linkage actually works though it was just a potential problem that I would think Minato would have.

 But Wood Dragon wouldn't need to try and target his marks in the first place, not when Madara can easily summon more Wood Dragons.


----------



## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> To be honest, I'm not completely sure how Hiraishin and Minato's chakra linkage actually works though it was just a potential problem that I would think Minato would have.



He can teleport what he or his chakra is touching to one of his Hiraishin symbols. What's so mysterious? 



> But Wood Dragon wouldn't need to try and target his marks in the first place, not when Madara can easily summon more Wood Dragons.



I don't recall Madara (or Hashirama for that matter) ever calling on more than one Mokuryū at a time. Though if he did, Minato would just have to shoot more Bijudama at them. 

Naruto broke one of those bad boys apart with Shunshin. They're not that problematic to top tiers.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 13, 2015)

Minato's Hirashin markings are just writing that acts as a focal point for his teleportation. there's no chakra in it. 

Also Preta Path takes time to absorb things. It took a couple seconds to absorb Jiraiya's COR and Naruto's FRS. Bijuu Dama were said to be heavy and incredibly dense so its gonna take a while for Preta to absorb it, if it can at all. So its not exactly the best idea for Mads to do that when it'll leave him wide open.


----------



## Kyu (May 13, 2015)

> We've seen Preta used alongside Human Path. That alone nullifies the idea that it cannot be used with other jutsu. Unless they're rookies like Sasuke.



I reiterate:



> When has Preta ever been used together with a *long ranged offensive jutsu*?






> Shame he didn't do this sort of shit to end Madara so that Hashirama could help. Or even do it to end Black Zetsu before he went into Obito.



and in the instance you're referring to; Kakashi reached BZ the same time as Kyuubi Minato.

Classic case of PIS. Unless by some chance you're saying Kakashi is in a comparable speed bracket to his mentor boosted by kyuubi's chakra.



> You're overestimating Minato's speed.



You overrating an Edo that can't utilize his ocular power to its maximum potential and has a tendency to dick around is a more accurate dissection of our little discussion here.




> This "crap" is a weakness of your point. Lacking half of Kurama's power is a big thing when Kurama's full power accomplished what you think Minato can do with half its power.


>Places BM Minato in the exact same category as 50% Kurama on its own
>Ignores that a biju's true power is brought out with a Jinchuriki 




> Okay, we're done here. You think a Jinchuriki with 50% Kurama can take a Juubi lazer dama and that *100%* Kurama won't....



Typo, meant 50%.



> Doesn't stop Madara from making more. Madara doesn't have the chakra constraint Minaot has.



He & his clones can always remove them from the battlefield through FTG to consume less chakra.


Or better yet, send Madara elsewhere and take the victory via BFR.




> A feat which was done by the Rinnegan's original owner who supercedes all the users of his own eye. Unless you think Obito was talking out of his ass, Madara's Rinnegan feats would surpass Nagato's. Using multiple CT is one of those feats.



A Bijudama for each core.




> Naruto using all of Kurama's chakra is basically KN9.
> 
> Unless you want to be telling me KN6>KN9, there's nothing to be said here.
> Wait... okay I'm done here too... now you're saying KCM, which is basically KN9 is weaker than KN6.


...Which is _Biju Mode_ - not KCM - especially a KCM with a limited supply of chakra split a dozen ways. 




> KCM, even this nerfed one, still blows KN6 out of the water. Naruto just couldn't use clones. That is it. Nothing about his durability as a Jinchuriki.



Gimped KCM broke his ankle body flickering into a wall, got his shit pushed in by inferior V2 jinchuriki, and could barely fend off Ei's punch.

KN6 withstood Chibaku Tensei, and tanked it's own Bijudama with zero notable injuries.




> You severely undermine base Bee's durability. Dude tanked a piercing attack like Chidori and Juugo's attack as if nothing happened to him. That's a pro for Bee, not a neg for ST. Now if you're gonna imply that Bee is a fragile guy and ST not harming him means ST is weak... we're also going to be done here on this point.




Says the guy who claimed Edo Nagato's ST is leagues above what KN6 can handle.



> Itachi got turned to dust.



...Or he could've blocked using Susano'o(if he even needed to), stayed out of sight, and waited for the right opportunity to save Naruto & Bee.

Y'know an actual plausible scenario.



> Basically KN9 couldn't counter the ST not used by a chakra dispersed Pain, Bee couldn't either. Your point of using the weakest user of Shinra Tensei (God Realm Pain without all of Nagato's chakra) failed.




>Continues to call KCM "KN9" 




> So Madara is only ever going to use his sword. Madara doesn't have any other jutsu he can use... is that what you're really saying?




Has he ever used anything other than his sword or melee attacks while in PS? 




> Shame that Madara won't just stand there and say hello back and does nothing while Minato just seals him... do you seriously think Madara won't do a damn thing? Or do you think he'll be pinned down as easily as Kurama with his collection of powers?



Madara got tagged how many times by the Gokage because of his own arrogance? More than once, I'm sure.



> The guy who says 50% Kurama can do more than 100% Kurama is faulting the idea that we can assume Madara's use of Demon Realm would be much better than Nagato's?Also do you think Madara will use jutsu one at a time, or combine their use.



Well that is what he's done in the manga against Biju Naruto when he said he get serious and we've no reason to believe his restraints as an edo would allow him to display techniques with the proficiency that you're implying. 



> Kyuubi Minato IS 50% Kurama too.



50% Kurama is one half of what KM is comprised of. The jinchuriki is the other half. 

Neither party can equal the power of a perfect jinchuriki on their own. Combined effort is key; a recurring theme is this manga that's been pounded down the reader's throats.



> I'm done here



Indeed you are.


----------



## ARGUS (May 17, 2015)

Sasukes PS being close to Madaras is extremely fallacious, when through scaling its destructive capacity is around low mountain level, similar to how he chopped off the trunk of the god tree branch,

if you think that cutting one chunck of the god tree  through direct contact, (the branch is much smaller than a standarad mountain) , is equivalent to chopping 5 mountains instantly which spanned over multiple kilometres,  than you need to get your head checked 

OT - i change my mind, madara still wins this, 

 -- no kage bar minato is a factor, one slash and they are done for, 

 -- in a CQC brawl, PS would manhandle his kyuubi due to its sheer size, minato is losing one tail after each slash of PS, at  the very least, and his TBB can either be deflected back at him through ST or have its trajectory changed through mokutons


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Sasukes PS being close to Madaras is extremely fallacious, when through scaling its destructive capacity is around low mountain level, similar to how he chopped off the trunk of the god tree branch,


For god's sake, enhanced V3 Susano'o is no where close to Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o. 'IT FOUGHT ALOGNSIDE BSM NARUTO!', does NOT fucking mean they are equals and you know it. Only when Perfect Susano'o came out Sasuke had similar power. 


> if you think that cutting one chunck of the god tree  through direct contact, (the branch is much smaller than a standarad mountain) , is equivalent to chopping 5 mountains instantly which spanned over multiple kilometres,  than you need to get your head checked


You need to stop the intellectual dishonesty. V3 Susano'o even with the Kurama shroud enhancement wasn't anywhere near close to Perfect Susanoo or BM/BSM Naruto level. Feats are inferior. 


> OT - i change my mind, madara still wins this,
> 
> -- no kage bar minato is a factor, one slash and they are done for,


Given how its likely Sandaime Raikage can tank a Bijudama, that's false.


> -- in a CQC brawl, PS would manhandle his kyuubi due to its sheer size, minato is losing one tail after each slash of PS, at  the very least, and his TBB can either be deflected back at him through ST or have its trajectory changed through mokutons


Shinra Tensei, don't make me laugh it has no feats close to that. And Perfect Susano'o can't even scratch BM Minato.


----------



## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

It is funny that people think Minato will just let Madara kill the other Kages.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It is funny that people think Minato will just let Madara kill the other Kages.


Its also funny how they think that someone who can tank Rasenshuriken and Bijudama would be killed with a single swipe. Or that there is also another Biju on the field with Shukaku. Plus Genjutsu from Gengetsu to screw things up for Madara due to said genjutsu unique properties.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 17, 2015)

madara kills them with little effort. tobirama has shown reaction speeds greater than minato. he reacted to ten tails obitos blitz while minato got his arm taken off by obitos attack before he was able to use hiraishin. 

if tobirama cant touch madara, minato is getting clowned in cqc. minatos tier is nowhere near hashirama and madara going by feats and manga portrayal. thats ridiculous. 
this is literally what would happen to minato if he fought madara. 


BM minato gets the kurama avatar ripped from him by the mokuryu. no, naruto did not "cancel" his mode in order to destroy the dragon. the avatar was ripped from him, then he shunshined away. 

kurama while under the control of a jinchuriki does not possess more firepower than kurama on his lonesome. biju mode is simply the jinchuriki releasing their biju. 
the kurama avatar is kurama, so one cannot be stronger than the other. a jinchuriki can simply use the bijus power more efficiently. neither 50% kurama nor its jins can beat the mokuryu 1v1.

bijudama(at least the standard version) can be tanked by V3 normal and legged susano considering that the hachibi tanked its own bijudama. the hachibis durability is less than susano going by feats.


the mizukages genjutsu is worthless. it will not fool his ems/rinnegan and he can incinerate the entire battlefield with this.

or any similar wide range katon which would incinerate the clam and clear the mist it produces.
joki boy is a nonfactor.


madara can easily react to the the 3rd raikages movements, grab him with susano and disable him with genjutsu. its would be that easy.

both onoki and mu already got destroyed by madara before. there isnt anything to say about him.

gaara and shukaku are relatively weak. there isnt any reason that mokuryu cant suppress shukaku and madaras susano cant plow through gaaras sand shield and kill him.


----------



## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

I think Madara'll win with around medium difficulty.

Madara has a track record of tanking TBBs, and Minato's TBBs are even weaker and smaller TBBs than the likes of which Madara has dealt with in the past(and by dealt with I mean PS having zero visible damage). 

Minato's shroud is probably as durable as Naruto's, which was smashed alongside Sasuke's giant V3 Susano'o by Juubito. Except Naruto's shroud had added senjutsu durability, but let's just assume there equal. PS, which is on a higher level than the Susano'o Sasuke was using, is going to be more durable than Minato's shroud once you equate it to having the same durability as giant V3. 

I also want to make the point that a tail did tank a PS strike, but that was chapter 695 Naruto whose avatar is just as big as Sasuke's PS. So yeah, a kyuubi avatar the same size as PS has been shown to tank PS's strikes. Minato's avatar isn't the same size as Madara's PS though; being _generous _it maybe comes up to Madara's PS's thigh, though it's probably closer to it's kneecap. That's a pretty dangerous size difference; Madara may not know he's fighting Minato at first and accidentally step on him, killing him in the process  .

Minato likely has a BM time limit as well, and he has ran out of chakra on panel before, so he doesn't have infinite chakra to do whatever he wants throughout the fight. Naruto had more training, so Minato probably has even less time than Naruto has, not that the BDs would do much more than scratch the paint off his susano'o regardless(since it has superior durability Minato may actually hurt himself). So, I can't see Minato taking this battle from a portrayal standpoint or feats standpoint or offensively or defensively or in any way really.


----------



## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

>Susano'o size differences

All Perfect Susano'o are the same exact size. Any differences are simply scaling fuck-ups by Kishi.


----------



## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

I think mostly all the PS's are the same size yeah, but I'm not sure how that changes things. 

The kyuubi avatars vary in size, but yeah I'm pretty sure the PS are same size.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> >Susano'o size differences
> 
> All Perfect Susano'o are the same exact size. Any differences are simply scaling fuck-ups by Kishi.



 Well, Sasuke's isn't Stabilized and is only roughly the size of 50% Kurama while Madara's UnStabilized PS is roughly 100% Kurama's size. It's safe to say there is a huge difference.


----------



## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

I don't think the Kyubi shrouds vary either, but meh.

Minato doesn't need to go through Susano'o.

He can warp it away if he so much as touches it with a tail.

Uchiha have been separated from their Susano'o before.


----------



## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Well, Sasuke's isn't Stabilized and is only roughly the size of 50% Kurama while Madara's UnStabilized PS is roughly 100% Kurama's size. It's safe to say there is a huge fuckin difference.



Even Sasuke's Jesus PS doesn't seem any larger than a normal Biju. [1][2]

These Megazord things are all the same size, except for Senpou Mokuton Shinsusenju, which _still_ got the work from the much smaller Kyusano'o.


----------



## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

I can only base it off how it was depicted. If you use Madara's normal size Susano'o as a control with which to compare, PS does appear much larger. 

Madara can be separated from PS, but it'll probably cost Minato a hefty amount of stamina and he'll just reform it after. Hiraishin is also slower when teleporting large objects like PS, potentially leaving Minato open to all kinds of attacks.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Even Sasuke's Jesus PS doesn't seem any larger than a normal Biju. [1][2]
> 
> These Megazord things are all the same size, except for Senpou Mokuton Shinsusenju, which _still_ got the work from the much smaller Kyusano'o.


I would have to say a Six Path powered Kurama is the size of Perfect Susano'o.


----------



## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

This is how big naruto's avatar was vs Madara's Susano'o, and how big the meteor was vs Madara's Susano'o.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

Edo Madara wins with a high difficulty thanks to his PS.


----------



## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Madara can be separated from PS, but it'll probably cost Minato a hefty amount of stamina and he'll just reform in after. Hiraishin is also slower when teleporting large objects like PS, potentially leaving Minato open to all kinds of attacks.







It will take Minato little to no time to warp away Madara's Susano'o, and while such a feat may have tired his non-Jinchuriki self, Minato isn't going to have that problem here.

Reforming Susano'o is an option, but there's still a window in which Minato's Kage teammates (or Minato himself I guess) can hit Madara. 

See: SM Naruto, Onoki, & Gaara vs. Madara.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Even Sasuke's Jesus PS doesn't seem any larger than a normal Biju. [1][2]
> 
> These Megazord things are all the same size, except for Senpou Mokuton Shinsusenju, which _still_ got the work from the much smaller Kyusano'o.



 Lawrence's point is that BM Minato's Avatar gets overpowered by PS due to the sheer size difference as equal size dictates equal power with Kurama Avatar vs Susano'o (as shown against Naruto vs. Sasuke).

 We have seen how Sasuke's PS while Unstabilized is only slightly bigger than a normal Bijuu while Madara's Unstabilized PS is roughly the size of Full Kurama. 

 I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Naruto's Ashura Avatar got bigger due to having greater control over the power of all nine Bijuu. Unfortunately, I can't prove whether the Ashura Avatar is bigger than a Kurama Avatar, but you haven't proven that Naruto's Ashura Avatar is the size of a normal Bijuu.


----------



## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

Oh, I have no doubts he can warp it Rocky, though how many times he can I would say not many. Making a couple rasengan, warping the shinobi alliance, and warping that BD basically took everything out of him, and PS isn't far off that very large BD.

Even if it did come off I'd think Madara'd be fine flash activating like he did here against Tobirama[1] until he can reconstruct the thing. He blitzed SM Naruto pretty easily and was reacting to Ei handedly. He's also familiar enough with Hiraishin to know once Minato throws a kunai he's going to try to warp to it.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Lawrence's point is that BM Minato's Avatar gets overpowered by PS due to the sheer size difference as equal size dictates equal power with Kurama Avatar vs Susano'o (as shown against Naruto vs. Sasuke).
> 
> We have seen how Sasuke's PS while Unstabilized is only slightly bigger than a normal Bijuu while Madara's Unstabilized PS is roughly the size of Full Kurama.
> 
> I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Naruto's Ashura Avatar got bigger due to having greater control over the power of all nine Bijuu. Unfortunately, I can't prove whether the Ashura Avatar is bigger than a Kurama Avatar, but you haven't proven that Naruto's Ashura Avatar is the size of a normal Bijuu.


If it is as tall as a Perfect Susanoo powered by Six Path Power, Naruto's Avatar has increased in sheer size by a massive amount. All Perfect Susanoo are the same size, which is extremely massive. Instead of assuming Sasuke's smaller, the correct conclusion is Naruto's Kurama Avatar got bigger.

And Minato should still be able to block considering his tails should be able to block a Juubi Bijudama beam.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Madara's Blade is a piercing type move while the Juubi Laser tanked is not. Madara is also capable of striking rapidly based on his fight with Hashirama and was capable of throwing over a dozen of Susano'o blades at Hashi's Buddha almost instantaneously.

 I don't see BM Minato replicating feats like those, so I don't see him preparing a viable defense against that.


----------



## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

It blocked a juubi beam, but was destroyed by Juubito's ground pound alongside Sasuke's inferior Susano'o(with respect to Madara's PS).

Juubi beam just isn't the strongest attack; juubito's ground smash was stronger and a bunch of other attacks are stronger as well. Madara's PS would tank it from scaling Sasuke's. It's just not focused. Madara's PS strike however, is entirely focused on whatever it connects with.


----------



## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Oh, I have no doubts he can warp it Rocky, though how many times he can I would say not many. Making a couple rasengan, warping the shinobi alliance, and warping that BD basically took everything out of him, and PS isn't far off that very large BD.




Warps Bijudama that dwarfs a Tailed Beast.
Holds down Jubi-sized barrier with other Hokage.
Fights Jubito.
Warps *the entire motherf*cking alliance.*
Continues to fight Jubito.
Gets power sapped by God Tree.
Runs out.

Stamina _will not_ be an issue.



> Even if it did come off I'd think Madara'd be fine flash activating like he did here against Tobirama[1] until he can reconstruct the thing.





You do know how Susano'o works, right? If Madara's Susano'o is displaced to a rock somewhere in the middle of the ocean, he can't just pull another one out of his ass. He' only got one, so his Perfect Susano'o would have to _go away_ before he could "flash activate" another. 



> He blitzed SM Naruto pretty easily and was reacting to Ei handedly. He's also familiar enough with Hiraishin to know once Minato throws a kunai he's going to try to warp to it.



Revived Madara was getting the best of Sage Naruto, and Kyubi Minato is far faster than A. Besides, all Minato needs to do is touch Madara once (to mark him), so it doesn't _really_ matter if Madara guards his strike.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

Madara's PS cant damage Kurama Avatar, but it can exhauste BM Minato until his Kurama Avatar is gone. Madara's PS can tank regular TBBs and counter super-big TBBs with EMS precognition and blade swings. He can blow them up before they are made. 

BM Minato cant seal Madara and the rest are non-factors.

Edo Madara wins.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Madara's Blade is a piercing type move while the Juubi Laser tanked is not. Madara is also capable of striking rapidly based on his fight with Hashirama and was capable of throwing over a dozen of Susano'o blades at Hashi's Buddha almost instantaneously.
> 
> I don't see BM Minato replicating feats like those, so I don't see him preparing a viable defense against that.


Doesn't matter if Madara's blade is a 'piercing' type move (its a slash, and Katanas, what Madara's Susanoo swords are based on, aren't made for stabbing). The Juubi Bijudama Laser is far more powerful, and a Kurama Avatar has already shown it can tank that.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

> Revived Madara was getting the best of Sage Naruto, and Kyubi Minato is far faster than A. Besides, all Minato needs to do is touch Madara once (to mark him), so it doesn't really matter if Madara guards his strike.



Revived Madara was without his ayes, by they way.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Doesn't matter if Madara's blade is a 'piercing' type move (its a slash, and Katanas, what Madara's Susanoo swords are based on, aren't made for stabbing). The Juubi Bijudama Laser is far more powerful, and a Kurama Avatar has already shown it can tank that.



For how long can Minato keep up his Kurama Avatar?


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Doesn't matter if Madara's blade is a 'piercing' type move (its a slash, and Katanas, what Madara's Susanoo swords are based on, aren't made for stabbing). The Juubi Bijudama Laser is far more powerful, and a Kurama Avatar has already shown it can tank that.



 How would a Slash be ineffective? It casually sliced through all of Base Hashirama's Mokuton with a weaker PS and is capable of multiple strikes.

 The Juubi Laser wasn't even the Juubi's most potent strike and most of the force was distributed towards the tails in order for the BM Avatar to tank it. Here, however, BM Minato won't be capable of providing an optimal defense due to Madara's far quicker feats which implies a lot of Madara's slices can bypass Minato's tails and just strike at the core of the structure or that Minato simply will be unable to defend with his tails at all.

 You're lucky that I haven't even mentioned anything in regards to the Rinnegan or Mokuton yet.


----------



## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

I'll reply to that later Rocky, tyrion's show is about to come on.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> How would a Slash be ineffective? It casually sliced through all of Base Hashirama's Mokuton with a weaker PS and is capable of multiple strikes.


Since the beam was from the Juubi. And 'weaker PS', based on what? Majestic Armor - Susanoo Kurama was far stronger than the Perfect Susanoo we saw Madara use against the Gokage.


> The Juubi Laser wasn't even the Juubi's most potent strike and most of the force was distributed towards the tails in order for the BM Avatar to tank it. Here, however, BM Minato won't be capable of providing an optimal defense due to Madara's far quicker feats which implies a lot of Madara's slices can bypass Minato's tails and just strike at the core of the structure or that Minato simply will be unable to defend with his tails at all.


The Juubi's beam was the strongest thing on the planet when it was used for the first time in 610, it outclassed every feat before it. It could plow through several Bijudama's at the same time and flatten entire mountain ranges of larger mountains without slowing down. Its an attack far stronger than Madara's slashes.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since the beam was from the Juubi. And 'weaker PS', based on what? Majestic Armor - Susanoo Kurama was far stronger than the Perfect Susanoo we saw Madara use against the Gokage.



 Except Kurama only seemed to have improved Madara's Power Output due to having access to Bijuudamas. Based on feats, I'd say Susano'o Kurama is at the very most on par with Madara's PS based on the fact that their best feats are casually slicing through mountain ranges. The Susano'o Swords also didn't seem to change aesthetically and were only composed of Madara's Chakra, so I see no real reason why Kurama enhanced the piercing strength of Madara's blades. 



> The Juubi's beam was the strongest thing on the planet when it was used for the first time in 610, it outclassed every feat before it. It could plow through several Bijudama's at the same time and flatten entire mountain ranges of larger mountains without slowing down. Its an attack far stronger than Madara's slashes.



 It plowed through several weaker Bijuudamas.

 It only flattened entire mountain ranges once Obito and Madara felt compelled to use the Juubi to it's full power. Obito outright stated that he needed to conserve the Juubi's energy with the Laser used on BM Naruto.

 It's been emphasized how powerful BM Naruto's Kurama Tails are based on Obito's reaction when Naruto's Tails effortlessly blocked Obito's Katon and the fact that those tails were Naruto's strongest offense (excluding Bijuudamas) that could effectively pull out the stakes out of 5 Bijuu all at once. It's obvious the Tails are relatively strong, however, it's really when Madara has the feats to bypass those tails and attack the core of the structure is when the Kurama Avatar could potentially be destroyed.

 I personally believe Madara's PS can slice through BM Naruto's Kurama Tails, but to satisfy both of our perspectives, I'll just stick with the argument above.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Except Kurama only seemed to have improved Madara's Power Output due to having access to Bijuudamas. Based on feats, I'd say Susano'o Kurama is at the very most on par with Madara's PS based on the fact that their best feats are casually slicing through mountain ranges. The Susano'o Swords also didn't seem to change aesthetically and were only composed of Madara's Chakra, so I see no real reason why Kurama enhanced the piercing strength of Madara's blades.


Majestic Attire - Susanoo Kurama sliced through _six_ mountains, compared to Madara's Perfect Susano'o on its own, which was _two._ The combination was three-times stronger than Perfect Susanoo alone.




> It plowed through several weaker Bijuudamas


Each Bijudama was more powerful than a PS Slash. Given they can vaporize mountains, not merely fragmenting them.


> It only flattened entire mountain ranges once Obito and Madara felt compelled to use the Juubi to it's full power. Obito outright stated that he needed to conserve the Juubi's energy with the Laser used on BM Naruto.


Why would they use a full power  blast on a _base_ Naruto, exhausted Killer Bee, Guy, and Kakashi? Than in battle?


> It's been emphasized how powerful BM Naruto's Kurama Tails are based on Obito's reaction when Naruto's Tails effortlessly blocked Obito's Katon and the fact that those tails were Naruto's strongest offense (excluding Bijuudamas) that could effectively pull out the stakes out of 5 Bijuu all at once. It's obvious the Tails are relatively strong, however, it's really when Madara has the feats to bypass those tails and attack the core of the structure is when the Kurama Avatar could potentially be destroyed.


Which 'feats' do you bring up when he's dicking around?


> I personally believe Madara's PS can slice through BM Naruto's Kurama Tails, but to satisfy both of our perspectives, I'll just stick with the argument above.


That's something that isn't going to happen from feats.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Majestic Attire - Susanoo Kurama sliced through _six_ mountains, compared to Madara's Perfect Susano'o on its own, which was _two._ The combination was three-times stronger than Perfect Susanoo alone.



 That was multiple slashes while Madara's PS sliced through 2 mountains with a single Shockwave.




> Each Bijudama was more powerful than a PS Slash. Given they can vaporize mountains, not merely fragmenting them.



 Except the chakra accumulated for the Bijuudama are dispersed between those Bijuudama meaning they'd be weaker than an actual Bijuudama.



> Why would they use a full power  blast on a _base_ Naruto, exhausted Killer Bee, Guy, and Kakashi? Than in battle?



 Likely to ensure they get killed. Nonetheless, that Laserdama's feats was far superior than what was shown in the first Laserdama.



> Which 'feats' do you bring up when he's dicking around?



 Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're referring to here.



> That's something that isn't going to happen from feats.



 Then we agree to disagree here.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That was multiple slashes while Madara's PS sliced through 2 mountains with a single Shockwave.


'Multiple slashes'? There's zero proof of that. Madara just turned, slashed, and cut through six mountains when his Perfect Susanoo was equipped to Kurama. It was a SINGLE slash, not multiple ones. That is just a lie.

That single feat is quantifiably stronger than Perfect Susanoo's alone.


> Except the chakra accumulated for the Bijuudama are dispersed between those Bijuudama meaning they'd be weaker than an actual Bijuudama.


Still would have more power than what a PS Slash could do.




> Likely to ensure they get killed. Nonetheless, that Laserdama's feats was far superior than what was shown in the first Laserdama.


Prove. It.




> Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're referring to here.


Madara's dicking around feats would get him sealed against these Kage's.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 'Multiple slashes'? There's zero proof of that. Madara just turned, slashed, and cut through six mountains when his Perfect Susanoo was equipped to Kurama. It was a SINGLE slash, not multiple ones. That is just a lie.



 I concede to it being 1 slash. However, those scenarios aren't comparable as Madara's Kyuubisano'o rotated while Madara's PS against the Gokage did not.



> That single feat is quantifiably stronger than Perfect Susanoo's alone.



 It's really not.



> Still would have more power than what a PS Slash could do.



 PS Slashes are more focused than those Bijuudama, so PS Slashes could definitely be superior seeing as how both can destroy mountains. 





> Prove. It.



 The Laserdama effortlessly dwarfed and powered through mountains when no such thing was seen against Naruto's BM Kurama Avatar.





> Madara's dicking around feats would get him sealed against these Kage's.



 But he has Manga Knowledge on 50% Kurama's potential strength.


----------



## ARGUS (May 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> For god's sake,* enhanced V3 Susano'o is no where close to Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o*. 'IT FOUGHT ALOGNSIDE BSM NARUTO!', does NOT fucking mean they are equals and you know it. Only when Perfect Susano'o came out Sasuke had similar power.


again and again, i explain yet all yu ddo is cry and send me a neg, smh 

first ill explain why sasukes senjutsu enchanced susanoo is the physical equals to BSM avatar, 

Sasukes V3 senjutsu susanoo has the same durability, strength and speed as the kurama, making it the *physical equal* to the avatar, 
i would expect you to flat out reject hence why i have provided some nice explanations for you 

*Durability:* these 2 scans should shut your entire premise here,

mountain

they both have the same durability, *considering the fact that both the avatars took the same damage from juubitos drop slam,* with both the users unharmed from the attack, 
if the BSM avatar really had more durability then the avatar would have tanked the attack with no such damage, yet that clearly wasnt the case, so again youre wrong 

*Speed:*: yet again no more than 2 scans shit on your premise 
 Madara just turned, slashed, and cut through six mountains when his Perfect Susanoo was equipped to Kurama. It was a SINGLE slash, not multiple ones. That is just a lie.
 Madara just turned, slashed, and cut through six mountains when his Perfect Susanoo was equipped to Kurama. It was a SINGLE slash, not multiple ones. That is just a lie.

sasuke and naruto attempt to attack in the first panel, 
yet in the next panel they both travel the exact same amount of distance and land their attacks on the same time, 
the only one looking like a fool here is you, 
had the BSM avatar been much faster than naruto would have travelled that distance well before sasuke and landed his attack well before as well, yet that clearly wasnt the case, so once again youre wrong




> You need to stop the intellectual dishonesty.* V3 Susano'o even with the Kurama shroud enhancement wasn't anywhere near close to Perfect Susanoo or BM/BSM Naruto level. Feats are inferior. *


well first of all what feats does sasukes PS even have? that makes you make such claim? 
and if yourre using madaras PS feats then Lol, because i can assure you that below you will see how large the gap is between those 2, 

Not only do you sound even more stupid but your denial is strong, very strong, 

Sasuke recieved a Yin and Yang cloak which was amplifying his jutsus, 
Yang claok stated to boost the jutsus power by 3x, add another Yin, and we have the boost by 6x, and now add juugos senjutsu and its another  2x at the vey least, 
this V3 susanoo is nothing like a regular V3 and made it PS level, hell it has  the same durbaility as the BSM avatar, yet all youre thinking is ''ignoring'' and ''rejecting'' because you think its a regular V3, smh 

why does this V3 enhanced susanoo = sasukes PS? , well here is why, 

at the battle at VOTE, 
Rikudo sasukes PS = Rikudo Kurama avatar, 
in terms of strength, speed and durability, 

remove the rikudo boost and we get, 
Sasukes regular PS = Kurama avatar 

we saw at the battle against juubito that,
sasukes enhanced V3 susanoo w/senjutsu = BSM avatar 
in terms of strength speed and durability, 

remove the extra senjutsu buff, and we get, 
*Kyuubi Cloaked Susanoo* = BM avatar which in turn = Regular PS, 
resulting in Kyuubi Cloak Susanoo = EMS sasukes PS, 
in terms of DC, Durability, speed and strength, hell their sizes are exactly the same too 

meaning that this is DC of sasukes regular PS, based on scaling 

*Spoiler*: __ 







and if you think that the above equals to this in any way shpae or form, then you need to get your head checked, 


Madaras PS obliterates sasukes PS in a regular Combat, not only are his slashes pathetic to the construct but the sheer size difference alone would result in him getting manhandled, 
ability to chop multiple large mountains without even any contact >>>>>>>> cutting a branch smaller than each of the mountain that madara cut, and this was done with direct contact whilst moving along with the slash,  



> Given how its likely Sandaime Raikage can tank a Bijudama, that's false.





> Shinra Tensei, don't make me laugh it has no feats close to that. *And Perfect Susano'o can't even scratch BM Minato*.



*Spoiler*: __ 




Uhh No, it can scratch minato just fine, 
madaras PS tanked a full kuramas TBB with no damage whatsoever, 
after looking at the battle at VOTE, 
Rikudo avatar and Rikudo PS had  their entire left side of the avatas being shrugged off, after facing a combined explosion of 2 regular sized TBB, 
remove rikudo boost, and considering the fact that full kuraamas TBB >> half kuramaas, then we get to the obvious conclusion that madaras PS is more durable, 

minato is not even gettting time to prep his bombs, seeing how much quicker it is for madara to swing his blade then for minato to charge his bomb 
nothing short of flash TBB is even cutting it here, and even then he would need over 3 of them,

as for ST, its a repulsive force, a boss sized ST from deva path repelled off gigantic bijuu sized summons over a kilometre away, 
now unless a TBB is much much heavier, which it definitely isnt, 
then the bomb gets repelled back at  minatos face, or at the very least towards his location keeping madara safe, 




*NOTE: *
I provided this argument supported by manga scans and precise scaling, and yet all you did was send me a neg whilst providing dumb arguments, 
i will not be wasting my time if you act in the same irrational manner either concedde or provide an argument,


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I concede to it being 1 slash. However, those scenarios aren't comparable as Madara's Kyuubisano'o rotated while Madara's PS against the Gokage did not.


One of Madara's blades was still being neutralized by Hashirama. Madara had to overpower that WHILE turning around. Again, its stronger than Madara's Perfect Susanoo slash alone.




> It's really not.


Six is greater than two. So yes, it is. On top of Madara's Susanoo being restrained by Hashiramas' Mokuton.




> PS Slashes are more focused than those Bijuudama, so PS Slashes could definitely be superior seeing as how both can destroy mountains.


No, its not. Perfect Susanoo slashes causes fragmentation. Bijudama cause _vaporization_. The latter requires far more energy and far more power than a simple slash.






> The Laserdama effortlessly dwarfed and powered through mountains when no such thing was seen against Naruto's BM Kurama Avatar.


We saw the Laserdama from ABOVE when it was used against BM Naruto's avatar. We got a ground side view of it when Base Naruto was a target. If anything, the second Laserdama would have been weaker since it wouldn't require much power to kill that group.






> But he has Manga Knowledge on 50% Kurama's potential strength.


Wouldn't change it. He'd still fight in character. And we have to go by the feats he's SHOWN, after all.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> One of Madara's blades was still being neutralized by Hashirama. Madara had to overpower that WHILE turning around. Again, its stronger than Madara's Perfect Susanoo slash alone.



 That wouldn't matter considering Madara easily sliced through it the instant he began to slash through Hashirama's Mokuton. Hashirama also cannot "neutralize" Madara's Susano'o blade unless it was composed of Bijuu Chakra which it is not.

​I'd argue Madara's PS feat is superior as shown here:

*Kyuubi Cloaked Susanoo*

 Notice how Madara's Slash forces piles of boulders that dwarf Madara's PS to be blown off the ground and manages to pierce through those 2 mountains. Also notice how the Shockwave continues farther than that as opposed to Madara's Kyuubi-sano'o's Shockwave which stomps at the end of the mountain that was slashed. 




> Six is greater than two. So yes, it is. On top of Madara's Susanoo being restrained by Hashiramas' Mokuton.



 Except it wasn't as Madara sliced through it the moment he created his Shockwave.





> No, its not. Perfect Susanoo slashes causes fragmentation. Bijudama cause _vaporization_. The latter requires far more energy and far more power than a simple slash.



 As I said before, the slash covers a smaller area, making it more likely to damage the Avatar as opposed to weaker Bijuudamas which are normally tanked by the Hachibi.





> We saw the Laserdama from ABOVE when it was used against BM Naruto's avatar. We got a ground side view of it when Base Naruto was a target. If anything, the second Laserdama would have been weaker since it wouldn't require much power to kill that group.



 Obito specifically stated that he wanted to conserve energy during the first Laserdama, however, no such thing was implied during the 2nd blast.

 Furthermore, the 1st blast didn't exactly seem to dwarf the Bijuu by a * large * margin as opposed to the 2nd one which easily dwarfed Mountains which are far bigger than Madara's Kyuubi-sano'o. The 2nd one was noticeably stronger and that was clear when Kishimoto dedicated a panel by showcasing it's sheer force as it blew through multiple mountains effortlessly.




> Wouldn't change it. He'd still fight in character. And we have to go by the feats he's SHOWN, after all.



 Except Manga Knowledge would affect how he approaches the fight unless you're suggesting that Madara's an idiot.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That wouldn't matter considering Madara easily sliced through it the instant he began to slash through Hashirama's Mokuton. Hashirama also cannot "neutralize" Madara's Susano'o blade unless it was composed of Bijuu Chakra which it is not.
> 
> ​I'd argue Madara's PS feat is superior as shown here:
> 
> ...


 Hashirama caught Madara's first slash and held the blade in place. Madara had to overpower that grip AND slash through six mountains at the same time. 

Perfect Susanoow as taller than those meteors when he slashed through them. And even then, it was fragmentation and not a clean slash like the mountains. We see Madara cut through six mountains against Hashirama, that's clear evidence his PS is stronger with Kurama than it is alone.



> Except it wasn't as Madara sliced through it the moment he created his Shockwave.


No, he sliced through the OTHER Hobi hands, and Hashirama's grip loosened.






> As I said before, the slash covers a smaller area, making it more likely to damage the Avatar as opposed to weaker Bijuudamas which are normally tanked by the Hachibi.


So you're claim that if it wasn't a slash, Perfect Susanoo would be vaporizing mountains just like Bijudama? Seriously?






> Obito specifically stated that he wanted to conserve energy during the first Laserdama, however, no such thing was implied during the 2nd blast.


And Madara kind of overruled him. Seriously, they'd need more power to fight full powered BM Naruto, BM Bee, Kurama enhanced Kakashi and Guy than he would for just killing them at their weakest.


> Furthermore, the 1st blast didn't exactly seem to dwarf the Bijuu by a * large * margin as opposed to the 2nd one which easily dwarfed Mountains which are far bigger than Madara's Kyuubi-sano'o. The 2nd one was noticeably stronger and that was clear when Kishimoto dedicated a panel by showcasing it's sheer force as it blew through multiple mountains effortlessly.


I'm not seeing it. They'd need more power to fight than they would to crush opponents at their weakest.





> Except Manga Knowledge would affect how he approaches the fight unless you're suggesting that Madara's an idiot.


Madara isn't an idiot. However, he's arrogant as HELL. That's his defining trait.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It is funny that people think Minato will just let Madara kill the other Kages.



How incompetent do you think Rinnegan Madara is?

IC Madara would use more of his arsenal if he felt pushed. These Gokage are likely to push him more than the other Gokage + the Jinchuriki and masters. 

BL, you can come up with dozens of ways Madara can finish them off. 

We get Minato has Kurama, but did speed really help A and Naruto against Madara?


----------



## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> BL, you can come up with dozens of ways Madara can finish them off.



Not if they're inside Minato's Chakra Kurama. 



> We get Minato has Kurama, but did speed really help A and Naruto against Madara?



The speed boost Minato gets from Kurama is irrelevant here (kind of).

What helps him is the Megazord. Hiraishin (and S/T Ninjutsu in general) still lols at Perfect Susano'o.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How incompetent do you think Rinnegan Madara is?


Even when bloodlusted, he still couldn't kill the Gokage. He left them near death, true, but they recovered.


> IC Madara would use more of his arsenal if he felt pushed. These Gokage are likely to push him more than the other Gokage + the Jinchuriki and masters.


And you're suppositioning more than what Madara's actually shown. And then making wild claims like he can use a dozen Mokuton Ryu's or use techniques he's never shown before.



> BL, you can come up with dozens of ways Madara can finish them off.


You also have to work with WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SHOWN. Instead of using no-limit's fallacies and hyperbole. Look at the actual feats and apply them.


> We get Minato has Kurama, but did speed really help A and Naruto against Madara?


Madara was almost pushed into lava by A's first level of speed, was blitzed by lightened A, and Naruto never _used_ his speed on Madara. He's just as vulnerable to a speeblitz as anyone.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Not if they're inside Minato's Chakra Kurama.



BL, this is no contest. Madara has access to clones and Bijuu suppressing capabilities. Alongside EMS and Rinnegan powers. 



> The speed boost Minato gets from Kurama is irrelevant here (kind of).
> 
> What helps him is the Megazord. Hiraishin (and S/T Ninjutsu in general) still lols at Perfect Susano'o.



Perfect Susanoo may not even be needed when his megazord can be suppressed and his Hiraishin will tend to be used just for running away and his reflective space-time jutsu will only reflect jutsu that Madara can easily handle. 

I'd hazard a guess and say that Minato, no matter his Jinchuriki status, is just no match for Hashirama-Madara level.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even when bloodlusted, he still couldn't kill the Gokage. He left them near death, true, but they recovered.



He didn't feel like finishing them off, obviously. He was more concerned about coming back to life.



> And you're suppositioning more than what Madara's actually shown. And then making wild claims like he can use a dozen Mokuton Ryu's or use techniques he's never shown before.



You mean I'm making wild claims saying that Madara can use jutsu he can actually use?



> You also have to work with WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SHOWN. Instead of using no-limit's fallacies and hyperbole. Look at the actual feats and apply them.



If we work with what's shown, Minato and co are screwed. Kurama is useless with Madara's Bijuu suppression. However "working with what was actually shown" seems to work by using speed Minato has not shown.

Unless we accept Minato's speed is irrelevant, as is shown. Or we work by assuming what both characters can do. Either way we choose to play, Madara comes out on top.



> Madara was almost pushed into lava by A's first level of speed, was blitzed by lightened A, and Naruto never _used_ his speed on Madara. He's just as vulnerable to a speeblitz as anyone.



A's speed was easily reacted to. Naruto never used his speed to attack Madara because it wouldn't work. He only used it to stop Madara from stabbing B. 

With Rinnegan prediction, it is unlikely any blitz can occur. 

Now either we stick to feats which means you stop using exaggerated speed claims which were unshown to work on Madara. Or we use what characters can logically use, which means you can attempt to use your exaggerated speed argument. However we get to use the Rinnegan jutsu and Mokuton jutsu that Madara would have access to.

Again on both counts, going by pure feats and going by what characters can logically do, when we've got to presuppose Minato's speed is immeasurable more than warranted while downplaying Madara's actual capabilities with abilities he actually possesses. The Minato stance looks weak.

Wanna convince us Minato can take Madara? Lets try not to downgrade Madara so Minato can keep up.


----------



## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> BL, this is no contest. Madara has access to clones and Bijuu suppressing capabilities. Alongside EMS and Rinnegan powers.



Everyone has access to clones, and I don't know which Biju suppressing abilities help him against Kyubi Minato who isn't any run of the mill Jinchuriki.



> Perfect Susanoo may not even be needed when his megazord can be suppressed and his Hiraishin will tend to be used just for running away.



Yes, Hiraishin is used to "run" from things. 

Like, say, Madara's suppression techniques. 



> I'd hazard a guess and say that Minato, no matter his Jinchuriki status, is just no match for Hashirama-Madara level.



Then you should stop hazarding guesses.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Everyone has access to clones, and I don't know which Biju suppressing abilities help him against Kyubi Minato who isn't any run of the mill Jinchuriki.



Only Madara won't run low on chakra reserves using them, plus Hashirama showed us that Mokubunshins don't need to disperse to transfer information to the user. Madara can effectively use a version of Pain Rikudou wherein the copies have all his powers.

Minato will just be a Jinchuriki who has Hiraishin. Now tell me again you don't understand how Madara, whose three Kekkei Genkai have shown Bijuu suppression, has Bijuu suppressing capabilities.



> Yes, Hiraishin is used to "run" from things.
> 
> Like, say, Madara's suppression techniques.



That's the only argument I've seen so far regarding Hiraishin going against Madara at full force. If he's going to just just to run away, then obviously there's nothing Minato has to threaten Madara.

Well there's a difference, Minato would shut down Bijuu powers (considering all his Kekkei Genkai possess the ability to to so). That's to confront Minato, an alternative is just to absorb any chakra avatar Minato uses.
Minato himself isn't a hard opponent for Madara.



> Then you should stop hazarding guesses.



Tell me why Minato is on Hashirama-Madara level. It will say a lot of you are saying Minato can compete on that level 'cause he's Minato.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 18, 2015)

Rinnegan and Sharingan bijuu controlling techniques dont work on Jins, the only 2 genjutsu shown to work around stuff like that was Tsukuyomi and Infinite Tsukuyomi. Kotoamatsukami would probably work too, but other genjutsu are totally ineffective. 

Wood wont work because Hiraishin, Minato's Shunshin, and Kurama Avatar. He is way faster and more powerful than any wood techniques Mads has shown ever.

Madara isnt on Hashirama's level when Hashi is serious, but Minato is above Madara. He has better techniques and is faster in his _BASE_ than Madara. PS slashes wont hurt Kurama Avatar so I dont see how Madara has any chance.


----------



## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

I'll answer you when I get back to a computer Munman, but in the meantime, please actually make an argument. I'm aware Madara has the potential to subdue a Jinchuriki. Tell me how you think the fight would go, step by step. I want to understand what you're thinking.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He didn't feel like finishing them off, obviously. He was more concerned about coming back to life.


Dude, he was bloodlusted. He left them alive and they survived, showing his claims weren't as big as you claim.




> You mean I'm making wild claims saying that Madara can use jutsu he can actually use?


When has Madara or Hashirama ever used a dozen Mokuton Ryu then? Or more than one?




> If we work with what's shown, Minato and co are screwed. Kurama is useless with Madara's Bijuu suppression. However "working with what was actually shown" seems to work by using speed Minato has not shown.


You do realize Minato can teleport OUT of the Biju Suppression, right? Mokuton Ryu is the only technique which can work on that, and Minato can either teleport or destroy its head and make it useless.


> Unless we accept Minato's speed is irrelevant, as is shown. Or we work by assuming what both characters can do. Either way we choose to play, Madara comes out on top.


...where are you getting 'speed' here when I mentioned no-limits fallacy and hyperbole? I was referring to your continued use of Preta Path being able to absorb Bijudama when it's never shown, not once, the ability to absorb a mountain buster, much less an attack equal to five biju.




> A's speed was easily reacted to. Naruto never used his speed to attack Madara because it wouldn't work. He only used it to stop Madara from stabbing B.


A's speed was never 'easily reacted to'. Madara barely blocked his first level of speed, never faced his full speed, and couldn't react to Lightened A. Naruto never used his speed on Madara since he was more focused on fighting Obito or attacking the Gedo Mazo. 


> With Rinnegan prediction, it is unlikely any blitz can occur.


...Rinnegan...prediction? No, it doesn't have that ability. Only the Sharingan has the prediction ability, Rinnegan loses that.


> Now either we stick to feats which means you stop using exaggerated speed claims which were unshown to work on Madara. Or we use what characters can logically use, which means you can attempt to use your exaggerated speed argument. However we get to use the Rinnegan jutsu and Mokuton jutsu that Madara would have access to.


How's anything been exaggerated OTHER than your Madara centric arguments, Munboy? Madara only reacted to a Hiraishin Blitz when he had a Limbo Clone up AND his reflexes were enhanced by Sage Mode. And not only that, it was an inferior Hiraishin user.

Minato with KCM/BM enhancing his already tremendous reflexes on top of the instant teleportation of Hiraishin WOULD blitz Madara and you've provided no evidence otherwise. 


> Again on both counts, going by pure feats and going by what characters can logically do, when we've got to presuppose Minato's speed is immeasurable more than warranted while downplaying Madara's actual capabilities with abilities he actually possesses. The Minato stance looks weak.


No, it doesn't. You're just downplaying Minato in this situation and exaggerating everything Madara has.


> Wanna convince us Minato can take Madara? Lets try not to downgrade Madara so Minato can keep up.


Minato could land attacks on Juubito with these upgrades. Is Madara as strong as Juubito?


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 18, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama caught Madara's first slash and held the blade in place. Madara had to overpower that grip AND slash through six mountains at the same time.



 He overpowered Hashirama's grip with his Susano'o's left arm. That's clearly shown in  the previous panel and prior to causing those Shockwaves. Even in that panel, you can clearly see that his left arm was ready to swing at Hashirama's Mokuton to break free of his grip.



> Perfect Susanoow as taller than those meteors when he slashed through them. And even then, it was fragmentation and not a clean slash like the mountains. We see Madara cut through six mountains against Hashirama, that's clear evidence his PS is stronger with Kurama than it is alone.



 He rotated. That's not a fair comparison at all. Even then, PS managed to raise a pile of boulders that dwarfed his PS's size and his Shockwave continued farther than the Kyuubisano'o's. 




> No, he sliced through the OTHER Hobi hands, and Hashirama's grip loosened.



 No he didn't. His swing began at the same point his arm was at when Hashirama's Mokuton gripped his sword. He used the other sword and slash his Mokuton, freeing him from Hashirama's grip. That's clearly shown as we see a panel where the other arm is raised and a panel dedicating it to showing the animation of him swinging that same arm.







> So you're claim that if it wasn't a slash, Perfect Susanoo would be vaporizing mountains just like Bijudama? Seriously?



 I never said that. I'm saying the amount of damage he can deal with a swing compared to a Bijuudama could possibly be greater. 




> And Madara kind of overruled him. Seriously, they'd need more power to fight full powered BM Naruto, BM Bee, Kurama enhanced Kakashi and Guy than he would for just killing them at their weakest.



 Obito overruled Madara on several occasions such as becoming the Jinchuuriki, understanding Madara's devious plan to betray him, and even managing Mugen Tsukyomi when Madara didn't even expect it. Obito didn't give 2 shits about Madara either. Both seemed to have equal role when they controlled the Juubi. If anything, I'd reckon Madara would listen to Obito in order to be able to deceive him into using the Rinne Tensei to revive him.

 But here, I'll agree to disagree because we both have different interpretations on the feats shown with both of those Laserdamas.



> I'm not seeing it. They'd need more power to fight than they would to crush opponents at their weakest.



 Sure, but feats dictate that the 2nd one's stronger and Obito's statement towards the 1st one implies that he held back IMO. But again, this seems to be open to our interpretation.




> Madara isn't an idiot. However, he's arrogant as HELL. That's his defining trait.



 Sure and even with that arrogance, he kept BM Naruto busy for a few minutes.

 But with manga knowledge on his FTG, barrier skills, and a BM Kurama Avatar, I doubt his arrogance would get him killed.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'll answer you when I get back to a computer Munman, but in the meantime, please actually make an argument. I'm aware Madara has the potential to subdue a Jinchuriki. Tell me how you think the fight would go, step by step. I want to understand what you're thinking.



First off, I'm going by the notion that any jutsu (base) Hashirama could use, Madara could use given Madara did copy the jutsu. This'd include Mokujin and the Ninjutsu variant of the Buddha. On top of that there's the notion that Madara has all the Six Paths jutsu, which he taught to Obito. I.E. he's got stronger versions of Nagato's powers being the original user. Then the obvious wealth of evidence suggesting universal MS jutsu like Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and plausibly Kagutsuchi*.

*Shisui-Obito's cases have implict-explicit evidence of Hashirama's cells.

Also the fact that Rinnegan chakra from two eyes would severely enhance Sharingan prediction considering a chakra boost from the lower stage does this. To give you perspective of the chakra difference, this is EMS Genjutsu vs Rinnegan Genjutsu. (Though you can say EMS Madara's was stronger due to his chakra quality and considering he was toying with the Gokage till the end, it provides a rationale for why he used the EMS and not the Rinnegan to cast the Genjutsu on A.)

Basically I'm saying Madara has a lot of techniques and abilities which lets him use whatever sort of strategy he wants. 

Well since no mindset was set I chose to look at this with the notion of IC and BL. 

BL is basically Madara going at full force from the beginning and ending things quickly as he can.

IC assumes he'll take the same approach with this set of Gokage. However considering this set is obviously more potent than the original set Madara fought, my argument is we'd see more Mokuton, more Rinnegan and possibly more EMS due to that. He might even make his clones not hold back by using the EMS, he may make them use the Rinnegan. 

Now I gave a hypothetical scenario of the Mokubunshins being capable of PS. That's what caused the shitstorm of what clones can or cannot do. A popular counter was Minato (though others like Oonoki went largely ignored) could use clones... yes. However with unlimited chakra, that is chakra that's always topped up after use. Madara can make top quality clones all the time. Whereas Minato et al's clones wouldn't be as good as the initial ones due to the decreased amount of chakra going into them after each use. 
Of course after PS was mentioned and the other Mokuton jutsu, or Rinnegan jutsu was mentioned... but they went largely ignored just to prove Mokubunshins can't do certain things.
A common argument was Hashirama's bunshin quality while he was making clones _while_ *constantly* streaming chakra into a Hokage level seal. Obviously that wasn't representative to the issue on hand considering Madara wouldn't need to be constantly streaming chakra for something when making clones.

Considering Mokubunshins can, in a sense, operate like Pain. (Whether or not you want to through the shared vision approach here, is up to you.) Madara can essentially have "Pain bodies" which have all his powers. Now if Madara's pushed enough, he will actually use clones.

Now here's the problem with "clones can counter clones" idea. Apart from the fact that the quality of the clones won't match Madara's, Madara's ocular powers can always differentiate a real user from their clones. It stands to reason his clones would too. So the clones can use a battle strategy against the other clones to target the real users of the clones. On top of that, as we know, unlike normal clones, destroying Mokubunshins isn't good unless you do so completely. 

As far as Bijuu suppression goes, I can't use the Rinnegan exclusive powers completely. Reason being that only a real user seems to be able to use things like the Bijuu suppression chains. However lets consider that Rinnegan chakra aspect. Now apply that to Mokuton, going by Bee, Mokuryu isn't the only thing capable of suppressing Bijuu (possibly it works better than other Mokuton jutsu)... that's enough to ward off Minato from trying to go and charge at Madara and risk him making a forest which can suppress his powers; even put him to sleep.

I've not listed more strategies because I'd go well over the post count going through all the possible MS, Rinnegan and Mokuton strategies he could use like coating the Rinnegan enhanced Susanoo onto a Rinnegan enhanced Mokujin/Buddha, while using a Animal Realm summon spam with the summoning conditions.

Lets not forget Preta Path nullifies Ninjutsu, hence every person aware of it always says Ninjutsu is out of the picture when they're aware that ability will be used. Now bear in mind Demon Realm overwhelms foes in Taijutsu and God Realm can always catch a foe off-guard. Combine this with other Rinnegan, Mokuton and EMS powers... I don't see Minato doing anything to Madara.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude, he was bloodlusted. He left them alive and they survived, showing his claims weren't as big as you claim.



He just wanted to dispatch them quickly so he can go the battlefield where he'd come back to life. That fight was never a bloodlust, he'd have Human Realmed each and every Kage if he was. Or stuffed them into a CT ball for overkill.



> When has Madara or Hashirama ever used a dozen Mokuton Ryu then? Or more than one?



They never needed to. Now tell me where this imaginary limit of only being able to use one dragon at a time was shown. Moreover if you think one dragon won't be enough for Minato, why wouldn't Madara use more than one?



> You do realize Minato can teleport OUT of the Biju Suppression, right? Mokuton Ryu is the only technique which can work on that, and Minato can either teleport or destroy its head and make it useless.
> 
> ...where are you getting 'speed' here when I mentioned no-limits fallacy and hyperbole? I was referring to your continued use of Preta Path being able to absorb Bijudama when it's never shown, not once, the ability to absorb a mountain buster, much less an attack equal to five biju.



He could, but that's all he can do. Teleport away. So he either has to go at Madara without Bijuu form, or always teleport away before the Bijuu avatar gets suppressed. If Mokuryu is the only jutsu that works that way, then Madara would be inclined to use more considering the work Minato has to put in to destroy just one. 

There's a difference, with Preta Path I'm actually using the manga facts. You're falsely applying the no limits fallacy. Likely because with Preta Path's actual function, Minato and the Gokage have nothing. Every shinobi who faces it resorts to not using Ninjutsu... your "no limits fallacy" is misplaced. It is more like you're asking for special pleading for certain jutsu without any warrant.


> A's speed was never 'easily reacted to'. Madara barely blocked his first level of speed, never faced his full speed, and couldn't react to Lightened A. Naruto never used his speed on Madara since he was more focused on fighting Obito or attacking the Gedo Mazo.
> 
> ...Rinnegan...prediction? No, it doesn't have that ability. Only the Sharingan has the prediction ability, Rinnegan loses that.



A's punch was blocked, easily. If it was barely, then A would've been more than enough at full speed to take Madara; he wasn't. 

Madara tried to use BM speed on Madara, he was blocked and owned by Madara's fan. 

Rinnegan loses nothing; MS doesn't even have Sharingan prediction. Users have to be aware of previous eye powers to use previous eye powers. MS chakra is stronger than Sharingan chakra. It stands to reason that MS prediction>Sharingan prediction.
EMS improves the prediction drastically while also supplying powerful chakra; that's why EMS' Sasuke's moves were so good as noted by Madara. Rinnegan is the highest level with insanely potent chakra in just one eye. So obviously its prediction will blow EMS' out of the water.

With Sharingan prediction having Rinnegan chakra pumped into it, the prediction will be insane. That's why A's punch was blocked so easily. That's why there was such a big deal about blocking the Rinnegan's vision. 

You mistakenly believe eye powers get lost. Sharingan has prediction, MS technically doesn't. However the superior chakra of succeeding levels enhance the Sharingan's prediction which is still the Sharingan's own unique power.



> How's anything been exaggerated OTHER than your Madara centric arguments, Munboy? Madara only reacted to a Hiraishin Blitz when he had a Limbo Clone up AND his reflexes were enhanced by Sage Mode. And not only that, it was an inferior Hiraishin user.



My Madara arguments use facts, your Minato arguments have had nothing reasonable or sensible to back them up. You're talking about Hiraishin blitz and blitz like they can make a difference when a blitz has only every worked on an opponent who was off-guard or on a low level.

You think Madara's going to be off-guard all the time or do you just think Minato is on a completely different level than Madara? Minato couldn't even get Obito with Hiraishin till Obito was off-guard. Minato couldn't get A with Hiraishin until he was off-guard. Hiraishin blitz fails against top tiers unless they're off-guard.



> Minato with KCM/BM enhancing his already tremendous reflexes on top of the instant teleportation of Hiraishin WOULD blitz Madara and you've provided no evidence otherwise.







> No, it doesn't. You're just downplaying Minato in this situation and exaggerating everything Madara has.



I don't think you know what downplaying and exaggerating are.
Minato's arguments, from you, have been with the presumption of Minato's capabilities with no sensible argument to support it. I've just used powers the manga has established that Madara has; you're going against said facts.



> Minato could land attacks on Juubito with these upgrades. Is Madara as strong as Juubito?



Madara believed with Sage power, he could take Juubito. With all the Rinnegan's powers and Hashirama's powers... he stood a much better chance than Minato.

Minato couldn't do anything to Juubito at all. There's a reason Kishi kept Madara and Hashirama away from that fight. Minato is far beneath the standard that Madara-Hashirama operate on. 
He probably can't even do as well as Naruto or EMS Sasuke, hence those two were the main stars against Juubito.

Even then Juubito wasn't going all out on Minato; Minato's nothing to the Nonoboku sword. Basically Minato is not relevant as far as Madara is concerned. That's why you placed Minato with other Gokage, right?


----------



## StarWanderer (May 19, 2015)

> Rinnegan is the highest level with insanely potent chakra in just one eye. So obviously its prediction will blow EMS' out of the water.



Madara's Rinnegan does not have precognition at all. 

Why so many people think that Rinnegan has precognition ability when there is no proof of that in either manga, or databook? Because it is a "an evolution of EMS"? Tsunade is Hashirama's granddaughter, yet she does not have Mokuton. EMS is an evolution of MS, yet an EMS user wont become blind from using EMS to often. Plus, it is confirmed in manga that Rinnegan is another dodjutsu that manifested itself in Madara's aye-sockets because of Indra's and Asura's chakra combination. 

Prove that Rinnegan has a precognition ability.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara's Rinnegan does not have precognition at all.
> 
> Why so many people think that Rinnegan has precognition ability when there is no proof of that in either manga, or databook? Because it is a "an evolution of EMS"? Tsunade is Hashirama's granddaughter, yet she does not have Mokuton. EMS is an evolution of MS, yet an EMS user wont become blind from using EMS to often. Plus, it is confirmed in manga that Rinnegan is another dodjutsu that manifested itself in Madara's aye-sockets because of Indra's and Asura's chakra combination.
> 
> Prove that Rinnegan has a precognition ability.



Prove anything above the Sharingan has precognition. 

Nothing but the Sharingan has precognition; the MS-EMS are layered on top of the Sharingan, and the Rinnegan is layered on top of the EMS. Each level has more powerful chakra thus more powerful chakra means better Sharingan precognition. 

Your false analogy with Tsunade doesn't apply.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> Prove anything above the Sharingan has precognition.



Well, EMS has precognition. Sharingan has precognition. There are proofs of that in the actual manga.

But there is nothing about Rinnegan's precognition at all. No statements, no feats etc. And the fact Madara's Rinnegan appeared when he had EMS doesnt prove anything at all.

And Tsunade's example does apply.  Plus, there are even more examples in manga.

Anyway, its up to you to prove Rinnegan has any precognition at all.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He just wanted to dispatch them quickly so he can go the battlefield where he'd come back to life. That fight was never a bloodlust, he'd have Human Realmed each and every Kage if he was. Or stuffed them into a CT ball for overkill.


Madara only used CT after achieving Juubi Jinhood. I don't think he can use it until then. Human Realm he has never shown using. 

And the fact they survived kind of detracts from what Madara actually could do.


> They never needed to. Now tell me where this imaginary limit of only being able to use one dragon at a time was shown. Moreover if you think one dragon won't be enough for Minato, why wouldn't Madara use more than one?


Since one dragon has been their limit to use. Absolutely no where has anyone used more than one, when it's countered, the technique is over and a new strategy is used. Mokuton Ryu was never shown to be an attack that could be 'spammed' in the way you claim it can.




> He could, but that's all he can do. Teleport away. So he either has to go at Madara without Bijuu form, or always teleport away before the Bijuu avatar gets suppressed. If Mokuryu is the only jutsu that works that way, then Madara would be inclined to use more considering the work Minato has to put in to destroy just one.


Or he could just blow off the Mokuryu's head with a giant Rasengan, or a Bijudama. Thus making it useless.


> There's a difference, with Preta Path I'm actually using the manga facts. You're falsely applying the no limits fallacy. Likely because with Preta Path's actual function, Minato and the Gokage have nothing. Every shinobi who faces it resorts to not using Ninjutsu... your "no limits fallacy" is misplaced. It is more like you're asking for special pleading for certain jutsu without any warrant.


You are using a no-limits fallacy. Until you show a feat of Preta Path absorbing a mountain buster _at the very least_, it can't absorb a Bijudama as powerful as one as Minato can make.



> A's punch was blocked, easily. If it was barely, then A would've been more than enough at full speed to take Madara; he wasn't.


No, Madara commented on how fast A's first level of speed was and never faced the full power. A realized his striking strength alone wouldn't have dented Madara's Susano'o, hence why he needed Onoki's help.


> Madara tried to use BM speed on Madara, he was blocked and owned by Madara's fan.


First of all, that was a clone. Second of all, all BM Naruto's clone did was leap into the air and create a mini-Bijudama. It had zero of this effect. So Madara did _not_ face Naruto's BM speed. 


> Rinnegan loses nothing; MS doesn't even have Sharingan prediction. Users have to be aware of previous eye powers to use previous eye powers. MS chakra is stronger than Sharingan chakra. It stands to reason that MS prediction>Sharingan prediction.
> EMS improves the prediction drastically while also supplying powerful chakra; that's why EMS' Sasuke's moves were so good as noted by Madara. Rinnegan is the highest level with insanely potent chakra in just one eye. So obviously its prediction will blow EMS' out of the water.


The Rinnegan has never, EVER showed any move prediction abilities. Mangekyo Sharingan and Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan are Sharingan derivatives, while the Rinnegan is the predecessor ability. 

There's been nothing that the Rinnegan has ever done that shows it has the Sharingan's unique move prediction ability. Remember, despite the Sharingan 'evolving' from it, its a distinct dojutsu. Otherwise there'd only be the 'Two Great Dojutsu', the Rinnegan and Byakugan.


> With Sharingan prediction having Rinnegan chakra pumped into it, the prediction will be insane. That's why A's punch was blocked so easily. That's why there was such a big deal about blocking the Rinnegan's vision.


The Rinnegan lacks move prediction. That's a power it never had. 


> You mistakenly believe eye powers get lost. Sharingan has prediction, MS technically doesn't. However the superior chakra of succeeding levels enhance the Sharingan's prediction which is still the Sharingan's own unique power.


The Rinnegan has always been treated as a _seperate_ dojutsu from the Sharingan. Hell, remember Obito's paths? The Rinnegan is for Shared Vision, while the Sharingan was for move prediction. The manga pointed out that the Rinnegan DOES lose its Sharingan prediction abilities right there in black and white, hence why both dojutsu were used for Obito's paths.




> My Madara arguments use facts, your Minato arguments have had nothing reasonable or sensible to back them up. You're talking about Hiraishin blitz and blitz like they can make a difference when a blitz has only every worked on an opponent who was off-guard or on a low level.


You're not using any facts. You're exaggerating what Madara has _actually done_, downplaying Minato and the other characters, and even when pointed out what you're doing you won't owe up to it man. 


> You think Madara's going to be off-guard all the time or do you just think Minato is on a completely different level than Madara? Minato couldn't even get Obito with Hiraishin till Obito was off-guard. Minato couldn't get A with Hiraishin until he was off-guard. Hiraishin blitz fails against top tiers unless they're off-guard.


Minato is not above Madara, but you're severely underestimating his speed. Minato was faster than Kamui in base, how fast would he be with Biju Mode enhancing everything? 

Minato couldn't get A with Hiraishin? Which is why he almost made it a single stroke battle if not for Bee's intervention, huh?

Seriously, why are you underrating and underestimating Minato's speed?




> I don't think you know what downplaying and exaggerating are.
> Minato's arguments, from you, have been with the presumption of Minato's capabilities with no sensible argument to support it. I've just used powers the manga has established that Madara has; you're going against said facts.


You've claimed Preta Path can absorb Bijudama without any actual feat or proof to back you up (at least without Juubi power to back it up). You claim the Rinnegan retains the Sharingan's move predictions when the manga disproves you. You underestimate Minato's speed and overestimate Madara's based on him reacting to a _non-blitz_ from a BM Clone. You claim he can use dozens of Mokuton Ryu's when no one has ever been able to spam it.

You are exaggerating and downplaying for Madara. To great amounts. Even ignoring what he's actually DONE.


> Madara believed with Sage power, he could take Juubito. With all the Rinnegan's powers and Hashirama's powers... he stood a much better chance than Minato.


Madara couldn't do diddly shit against Juubito even _with_ Sage Power. Unlike an actual _fricking Sage_, he can't use any Senjutsu techniques or empower his ninjutsu, all of it would do was give him a more durable body. Madara would have been ripped apart and anyone who doesn't wank Madara would agree.


> Minato couldn't do anything to Juubito at all. There's a reason Kishi kept Madara and Hashirama away from that fight. Minato is far beneath the standard that Madara-Hashirama operate on.
> He probably can't even do as well as Naruto or EMS Sasuke, hence those two were the main stars against Juubito.


Minato could overpower one of those massively powerful chakra arms that could shatter the Hokage barrier that could tank a continent busting Bijudama.

Not only that, he survived for a hell of a long time. Minato isn't that far beneath Maaara and Hashirama with Kurama's power backing him up. 


> Even then Juubito wasn't going all out on Minato; Minato's nothing to the Nonoboku sword. Basically Minato is not relevant as far as Madara is concerned. That's why you placed Minato with other Gokage, right?


I knew Minato couldn't defeat Madara alone even with Kurama's power. But you've been vastly underestimating and underrating him while exaggerating Madara's abilities and general performance.


----------



## Ryuzaki (May 20, 2015)

Adding the 2nd Mizukage is just being mean to Madara, he'd have his hands full with Gaara and BM Minato that he wouldn't know what to do with him. This is a one-sided stomp, Edo Madara, even with Rin'nengan is just simply outclassed and his greatest weakness of being sealed can be exploited. He won't be able to react to Minato with Limbo or otherwise.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Well, EMS has precognition. Sharingan has precognition. There are proofs of that in the actual manga.
> 
> But there is nothing about Rinnegan's precognition at all. No statements, no feats etc. And the fact Madara's Rinnegan appeared when he had EMS doesnt prove anything at all.
> 
> ...



EMS has no precognition, just the Sharingan. *That* is manga proof. EMS gives the user stronger chakra with a stronger ocular power. You guessed it: stronger/better chakra means enhanced use of things that use chakra, like the Sharingan's precognition.

The Tsunade example doesn't apply because it is a false comparison.

The proof is there, you just have a totally different idea of how Sharingan precognition works. Moreover you've seemed to forgotten how stronger chakra enhances chakra reliant stimuli like the Sharingan (each level from MS to Rinnegan has stronger chakra than the last level). 
Do you believe base Rasengan = SM Rasengan = Kurama Rasengan = KSM Rasengan = RSM Rasengan? If the answer is no, that's because you understand chakra quality plays a very big role with how potent chakra reliant jutsu become. Same shit here with Sharingan up to Rinnegan.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> EMS has no precognition, just the Sharingan. That is manga proof.



Yeah, thats why RT Madara commented on Sasuke's moves that its because he has EMS. 



> The Tsunade example doesn't apply because it is a false comparison.



Ok, i agree. But anyway, there is still no proof that Rinnegan has any precognition at all.



> The proof is there, you just have a totally different idea of how Sharingan precognition works. Moreover you've seemed to forgotten how stronger chakra enhances chakra reliant stimuli like the Sharingan (each level from MS to Rinnegan has stronger chakra than the last level).
> Do you believe base Rasengan = SM Rasengan = Kurama Rasengan = KSM Rasengan = RSM Rasengan? If the answer is no, that's because you understand chakra quality plays a very big role with how potent chakra reliant jutsu become. Same shit here with Sharingan up to Rinnegan.



Rinnegan is another dodjutsu. Its not a sharingan. It has nothing to do with sharingan. Sharrinnegan - yes, but Rinnegan? No. In Madara's case, Rinnegan manifested itself in his EMS because Indra's and Asura's chakra combined inside of him. That combination took its place in his ayes, transforming his ayes to another dodjutsu, which is Rinnegan. With different techniques. Why Nagato has never used precognition with Madara's Rinnegan? Why no one, who fought him, never commented on such technique? Why there are no statements? 

Explain to me why EMS, which is an evolution of MS, doesnt get "dark" after using it very often. Explain to me, why EMS has no jutsu-copying ability as a simple sharingan. Explain to me, why it is possible to make a ribcage of a non-perfect Susanoo, but is impossible to make a ribcage of Perfect Susanoo.

And you gave a false example right there. Rasengan is not a dodjutsu - its just a jutsu technique, thats it. 

So i am still waiting for you to prove that Rinnegan has any precognition at all.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Yeah, thats why RT Madara commented on Sasuke's moves that its because he has EMS.
> 
> Ok, i agree. But anyway, there is still no proof that Rinnegan has any precognition at all.
> 
> ...



EMS doesn't have precognition with it, that's the Sharingan which it is on top of. 

But let me ask you. Would you say SM, or Kurama would not improve Sharingan precognition even though the Sharingan uses chakra? If the answer is no, we're done. If the answer is yes, then you're forced to accept that the Rinnegan chakra will do the same as the EMS chakra does.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> EMS doesn't have precognition with it, that's the Sharingan which it is on top of.



RT Madara dodged EMS Sasuke's moves and commented that he wasnt surprised that Sasuke moved so well because of his EMS, not a sharingan.



> Would you say SM, or Kurama would not improve Sharingan precognition even though the Sharingan uses chakra?



SM was stated in the actual manga to improve jutsu prowess and all other Shinobi's abilities, even taijutsu. Am i right?

But KCM, or Kurama's BM? I dont know. Yes, sharingan uses chakra, but that doesnt mean it's precognition will be automatically improved by Kurama's chakra. Anyway, i dont remember any Kurama's Jinchuuriki with sharingan. 

The Rinnegan's chakra is different. It is another dodjutsu with another traits. 

And you havent answered on my quastions.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> RT Madara dodged EMS Sasuke's moves and commented that he wasnt surprised that Sasuke moved so well because of his EMS, not a sharingan.



EMS provides stronger chakra which enhances Sharingan prediction.



> SM was stated in the actual manga to improve jutsu prowess and all other Shinobi's abilities, even taijutsu. Am i right?
> 
> But KCM, or Kurama's BM? I dont know. Yes, sharingan uses chakra, but that doesnt mean it's precognition will be automatically improved by Kurama's chakra. Anyway, i dont remember any Kurama's Jinchuuriki with sharingan.
> 
> ...



Yes or no, do you think stronger chakra = stronger output on chakra dependent tools like the Sharingan? It isn't a hard question. Also it seems this argument seemingly looks like it will go no-where if you have to have the manga spell out what's been shown many times: stronger chakra = stronger jutsu.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> EMS provides stronger chakra which enhances Sharingan prediction.



Sasuke was using his EMS at that moment, not a simple sharingan. Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan is the end of sharingan's evolution.



> Yes or no, do you think stronger chakra = stronger output on chakra dependent tools like the Sharingan? It isn't a hard question. Also it seems this argument seemingly looks like it will go no-where if you have to have the manga spell out what's been shown many times: stronger chakra = stronger jutsu.



Stronger chakra = stronger jutsu, that's true. But any dodjutsu has its *traits*. Sharingan has its own abilities. MS, EMS, Rinnegan have their own abilities etc. Rinnegan has its own traits and it is *another* dodjutsu. Its not a sharingan's state of evolution - its another dodjutsu which manifests itself in shinobi who has 6o6P's chakra. 

Rinnegan has its own traits and precognition is not one of them. Until you can provide a *proof*.

And now, i'll wait for you to answer *my* quastions.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Sasuke was using his EMS at that moment, not a simple sharingan. Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan is the end of sharingan's evolution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



MS adds traits like the 3 jutsu; EMS adds PS; Rinnegan adds several powers. 

Now you're telling me that with stronger chakra, the Sharingan isn't going to have its traits improved upon?


----------



## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> MS adds traits like the 3 jutsu; EMS adds PS; Rinnegan adds several powers.



MS and EMS are next steps in Sharingan's evolution. Sharingan is an Australopithecus, MS is a Neanderthal and EMS is a human. 

Neanderthal doesnt have all traits of Australopithecus. Human doesnt have all traits of Neanderthal. 

Do you understand that?

Besides, The Rinnegan is not a Sharingan's next step in evolution - *it is another dodjutsu with its own powers*.



> Now you're telling me that with stronger chakra, the Sharingan isn't going to have its traits improved upon?



I am telling you that Rinnegan *is another dodjutsu*. *It is not a sharingan*. But of course you can say that "oh, it was Madara's EMS's which became the Rinnegan so his Rinnegan has EMS's traits!". In that case, i have an example for you up there which makes that statement moot.

Plus, why Nagato never, ever demonstrated precognition, or some other sharingan's ability?

The user with stronger chakra who has dodjutsu will have their dodjutsu abilities improved, obviously. Madara's Rinnegan will be very effective with its Paths techniques because Madara is the real owner of those ayes and because he has immense chakra. 

So... What? How long will i wait for you to give me at least 1 proof and answer my quastions?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> MS and EMS are next steps in Sharingan's evolution. Sharingan is an Australopithecus, MS is a Neanderthal and EMS is a human.
> 
> Neanderthal doesnt have all traits of Australopithecus. Human doesnt have all traits of Neanderthal.
> 
> ...



Not according to Kabuto. Though unlike with EMS where you need Indra's chakra and another MS. You need Asura's chakra as well to obtain it. 



> I am telling you that Rinnegan *is another dodjutsu*. *It is not a sharingan*. But of course you can say that "oh, it was Madara's EMS's which became the Rinnegan so his Rinnegan has EMS's traits!". In that case, i have an example for you up there which makes that statement moot.
> 
> Plus, why Nagato never, ever demonstrated precognition, or some other sharingan's ability?



Nagato could never access Madara's other powers because he didn't know they were there. If Madara had only the MS, no Sharingan, then there'd be no precognition or base Sharingan powers.

Madara could access all his powers because he knew it was there. That's like saying how come Naruto demonstrated BM the moment he got KCM... he couldn't even attempt to because he didn't know that function existed. 

You never answered the question: do you think the Sharingan's traits would improve when you introduce stronger chakra into the mix?


----------



## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> Not according to Kabuto. Though unlike with EMS where you need Indra's chakra and another MS. You need Asura's chakra as well to obtain it.



The fact that EMS manifested itself only in Indra's reincarnations doesnt prove that it can manifest itself only in Indra's reincarnations.

And Kabuto's words proves nothing. He didnt know what he was talking about.



> Nagato could never access Madara's other powers because he didn't know they were there. If Madara had only the MS, no Sharingan, then there'd be no precognition or base Sharingan powers.
> 
> Madara could access all his powers because he knew it was there. That's like saying how come Naruto demonstrated BM the moment he got KCM... he couldn't even attempt to because he didn't know that function existed.
> 
> You never answered the question: do you think the Sharingan's traits would improve when you introduce stronger chakra into the mix?



Mangekyou Sharingan *is* a sharingan. Its a second step in sharingan's evolution. 

And it has been proven that EMS has precognition. Madara, an EMS user, commented Sasuke's movements and wasnt surprised because of his *EMS's tomoe*. EMS, Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, was the reason of those "goof movements" Madara commented. Sasuke wasnt using his simple sharingan at that moment. He was using an evolved vertion of Sharingan.

There is no proof EMS's powers are in Madara's Rinnegan. Madara's Rinnegan doesnt have EMS's traits in the same way EMS doesnt have MS's trait to be gone after often usage.

And no proofs again - just your assumptions. Thats it. And a bad Naruto example. 

Yes, they will. I answered your quastion. Now answer mine.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> The fact that EMS manifested itself only in Indra's reincarnations doesnt prove that it can manifest itself only in Indra's reincarnations.
> 
> And Kabuto's words proves nothing. He didnt know what he was talking about.



Itachi said no-one since Madara got the EMS; Sasuke was the only EMS user after Madara. Care to guess what they have in common?

Kabuto knew what he was talking about. If you have to openly disregard a manga fact to make your assumption stick....

[QUOTEMangekyou Sharingan *is* a sharingan. Its a second step in sharingan's evolution. [/QUOTE]

Yes, it only adds 3 jutsu and more powerful chakra. It isn't the base Sharingan which has prediction. Each eye is layered on top of the other.



> And it has been proven that EMS has precognition. Madara, an EMS user, commented Sasuke's movements and wasnt surprised because of his *EMS's tomoe*. EMS, Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, was the reason of those "goof movements" Madara commented. Sasuke wasnt using his simple sharingan at that moment. He was using an evolved vertion of Sharingan.



Its proven EMS has stronger chakra than the MS. As you said stronger chakra = stronger Sharingan traits. The Sharingan's final level would have better precognition. 



> There is no proof EMS's powers are in Madara's Rinnegan. Madara's Rinnegan doesnt have EMS's traits in the same way EMS doesnt have MS's trait to be gone after often usage.



Susanoo and Amaterasu are Rinnegan powers? I had no idea.



> And no proofs again - just your assumptions. Thats it. And a bad Naruto example.
> 
> *Yes, they will*. I answered your quastion. Now answer mine.



Then you're forced to admit the Rinnegan chakra improves Sharingan prediction more than EMS chakra would. 

The Naruto example was a comparison which matches the situation you described. Far from being irrelevant.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> Itachi said no-one since Madara got the EMS; Sasuke was the only EMS user after Madara. Care to guess what they have in common?



Maybe no other Uchiha needed to replace MS with other's MS. That can be just a coincidence.



> Kabuto knew what he was talking about. If you have to openly disregard a manga fact to make your assumption stick....



Kabuto didnt know how exactly Madara got those Rinnegan ayes. And he falsely thought that his modifications allowed Madara to get that power.

So Kabuto's words prove nothing at all.

And are you the one talking about assumptions? Assumption is to think that only those with Indra's chakra can get EMS.



> Yes, it only adds 3 jutsu and more powerful chakra.



And one more thing - MS cant copy others jutsu's. 



> It isn't the base Sharingan which has prediction. Each eye is layered on top of the other.



Yet those ayes dont have some traits of their predecessors.



> Its proven EMS has stronger chakra than the MS. As you said stronger chakra = stronger Sharingan traits. The Sharingan's final level would have better precognition.



As it's seen in manga, Sharingan's final level - EMS - has better precognition then Sharingan and MS.



> Susanoo and Amaterasu are Rinnegan powers? I had no idea.



The Susanoo which Itachi cold use while being almost, or completely blind (look at his ayes during his "fight" with Sasuke)? The Susanoo which Madara could use while being without ayes at all? 

And can you show me a scan where Madara uses Amaterasu? 



> Then you're forced to admit the Rinnegan chakra improves Sharingan prediction more than EMS chakra would.



Since you cant prove that Rinnegan has any prediction at all, i am not forced to admit anything in our debate. 



> The Naruto example was a comparison which matches the situation you described. Far from being irrelevant.



Neither KCM, nor BM are dodjutsu's. Those modes work differently from dodjutsu. Bad examples.

And no proofs, no answers on my quastions. Again.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Maybe no other Uchiha needed to replace MS with other's MS. That can be just a coincidence.



Not according to Itachi. 



> Kabuto didnt know how exactly Madara got those Rinnegan ayes. And he falsely thought that his modifications allowed Madara to get that power.
> 
> So Kabuto's words prove nothing at all.



He didn't know how he got them, but he knew you get them by adding Senju DNA, hence Hashiboob. He wasn't wrong about it being the Sharingan's final level. 



> And are you the one talking about assumptions? Assumption is to think that only those with Indra's chakra can get EMS.



Says the guy who says Itachi never said others tried to gain new powers with transfers.



> And one more thing - MS cant copy others jutsu's.



Are you seriously saying the MS *LOSES* the ability to copy jutsu. 



> Yet those ayes dont have some traits of their predecessors.



They do because they're layered above the eye. 



> As it's seen in manga, Sharingan's final level - EMS - has better precognition then Sharingan and MS.



The Sharingan's final level is the Rinnegan, that's what the manga says. Also the EMS has stronger chakra, not precognition. Though you admitted stronger chakra improves the trait... the EMS is on top of the Sharingan. Guess what's on top of the EMS.



> The Susanoo which Itachi cold use while being almost, or completely blind (look at his ayes during his "fight" with Sasuke)? The Susanoo which Madara could use while being without ayes at all?
> 
> And can you show me a scan where Madara uses Amaterasu?



So Madara vs the Gokage and Edo Hashirama never occurred? You said the Rinnegan doesn't have the ability to use the power of the eyes beneath it... why was Sasuke able to use Amaterasu and Madara able to use Susanoo. 



> Neither KCM, nor BM are dodjutsu's. Those modes work differently from dodjutsu. Bad examples.



So you're saying stronger chakra improving traits applies to nothing but chakra modes... that Doujutsu cannot be enhanced with stronger chakra?


----------



## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> Not according to Itachi.



He just said that no one had EMS since Madara. How does that prove anything? No one had EMS since Madara because... No other Uchiha needed to replace MS with another MS. As i said before, that could be just a coincidence. 



> He didn't know how he got them, but he knew you get them by adding Senju DNA, hence Hashiboob. He wasn't wrong about it being the Sharingan's final level.



Yet it has been revealed that Rinnegan is another dodjutsu which manifested itself within Madara's aye-sockets only because he combined Indra's and Asura's chakra. Rinnegan is not a Sharingan's final form. it is another dodjutsu. And even if it realy was Sharingan's final form you would still have to prove it has any precognition at all. MS is higher then simple Sharingan in evolution, yet it cant copy other's techniques. EMS is higher then MS, yet it wont get useless after frequent usage.



> Says the guy who says Itachi never said others tried to gain new powers with transfers.



I never said that. And when has Itachi said that no one had EMS since Madara? Show me a scan, please.



> Are you seriously saying the MS LOSES the ability to copy jutsu.



Show me at least 1 instance where MS copy others techniques.



> They do because they're layered above the eye.



They dont and i have already explained why.



> The Sharingan's final level is the Rinnegan, that's what the manga says



Thats what Kabuto says. And its false. Rinnegan is another dodjutsu.



> Also the EMS has stronger chakra, not precognition.



Yeah, and Madara commented on Sasuke just for lulz.



> Though you admitted stronger chakra improves the trait...



If dodjutsu has that trait.



> the EMS is on top of the Sharingan



Yes.



> Guess what's on top of the EMS.



Among Sharingan vertions? Nothing.



> So Madara vs the Gokage and Edo Hashirama never occurred?



Those ayes of Madara were Edo ayes. It was not a true Rinnegan.



> You said the Rinnegan doesn't have the ability to use the power of the eyes beneath it... why was Sasuke able to use Amaterasu and Madara able to use Susanoo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ARGUS (May 22, 2015)

considering the fact that you need the Indra component in the rinnegan too, 
means that it is pretty much the next level to the MS/EMS
indras chakra = uchiha DNA/Sharingann more or less, 
indra + ashura = rinnegan, 

rinnegan having precognition may be an assertion but its not something thats far fetched, 
we have instances where madaras rinnegan was tracking even 8th gate guy 
before he used faster jutsus such as night moth


----------



## ARGUS (May 22, 2015)

considering the fact that you need the Indra component in the rinnegan too, 
means that it is pretty much the next level to the MS/EMS
indras chakra = uchiha DNA/Sharingann more or less, 
indra + ashura = rinnegan, 

rinnegan having precognition may be an assertion but its not something thats far fetched, 
we have instances where madaras rinnegan was tracking even 8th gate guy 
before he used faster jutsus such as night moth


----------



## StarWanderer (May 22, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> considering the fact that you need the Indra component in the rinnegan too,
> means that it is pretty much the next level to the MS/EMS
> indras chakra = uchiha DNA/Sharingann more or less,
> indra + ashura = rinnegan,
> ...



He could "track" 8 Gate Gai thanks to his reaction speed/brain speed which he gained thanks to Juubi's chakra and Hashirama's Sage chakra. That does not prove Madara's Rinnegan has precognition.


----------

