# Sannin vs Itachi



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Sannin vs Itachi.

Location: Gaara vs Kimmi
Distance: 20m
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: summonings, MS, Edo, SM, Bunshin 

Scenario 1:
Oro Vs Itachi 

Scenario 2: 
Jirayia vs Itachi

Scenario 3:
Tsunade vs Itachi


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

Scenario 1:
Itachi stack genjutsu mindfuck Oro

Scenario 2:
Itachi speedblitzes Jiraiya

Scenario 3:
Itachi mindfucks Tsunade then hits her in the vitals to prevent the regeneration


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Scenario 1:
> Oro Vs Itachi



Already happened in canon... Orochimaru goes down to genjutsu/kunai.
Knowledge doesn't make a difference, as Orochimaru thought it was okay to approach an Uchiha w/ illusion prowess in the first place. 



> Scenario 2:
> Jirayia vs Itachi



Jiraiya is going to be eliminated similarly. 
He forces eye contact with him. Taking clones/summons away from Jiraiya puts him at a disadvantage against Itachi. He is unable to compete in CQC and gets overwhelmed. 

I don't know how long it will take, but he'll be pressured with Sharingan precognition and better reflexes/speed. Not to mention illusions and a kunai circus...



> Scenario 3:
> Tsunade vs Itachi



Itachi runs circles around Tsunade, and she won't land a punch on him...ever. 
He doesn't need MS to fight Godaime. His genjutsu will provide a small opening to kill her.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2014)

I agree with everyone else so far. Itachi dominates the Sannin in their base forms, especially with these restrictions; he speedblitzes and mindfucks all three.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

@King Itachi ? shinryu please provide a single feats for you to assume that Itachi could ever blitz a Sannin memeber .


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

I never implied that Itachi would blitz any Sannin.
He's superior in CQC and overwhelms every one of them.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 17, 2014)

He's not blitzing anyone


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @King Itachi ? shinryu please provide a single feats for you to assume that Itachi could ever blitz a Sannin memeber .



Tangoing with KCM Naruto in CQC.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Tangoing with KCM Naruto in CQC.



I've ready trashed this argument many times. Don't think anything has changed.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> He's superior in CQC and overwhelms every one of them.



DAT Base Itachi CQC.

He is _totally_ superior to a woman who was beating down Susano'o with her bare hands.


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I've ready trashed this argument many times. Don't think anything has changed.



Pretty sure none of the Sannin in base form can do that.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> DAT Base Itachi CQC.
> 
> He is _totally_ superior to a women who was beating down Susano'o with her bare hands.



A women who was fighting FIVE Sussano clones at the same time, and had the skill tot outright blitz Oro while her midsection was in pieces


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> DAT Base Itachi CQC.
> 
> He is _totally_ superior to a women who was beating down Susano'o.



Genjutsu is included in my assessment. 
It's a dangerous aspect of Itachi's ability in CQC.

Even though she has great control over her chakra, every second counts against someone like Itachi. His prowess in weaponry is second to none, as well. She'll have trouble landing one hit on him - due to his better reflexes/speed and precognition - so the addition of illusions/weapons would be two things she can't afford to focus on.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Pretty sure none of the Sannin in base form can do that.



Pretty sure they ALL could so that causally. Tsuande would actually end up killing Naruto the moment her fist made contact with Naruto's arm.

A 7% KCM Naruto clone allows the opponent to shunshin in, doesn't use shunshin himself at all, relies on taijustu, doesn't use chakra arms, and is more interested in gathering information isn't a threat to any Sannin in CQC.


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Pretty sure they ALL could so that causally. Tsuande would actually end up killing Naruto the moment her fist made contact with Naruto's arm.



What speed feats suggest that base Jiraiya can do so? 



> A 7% KCM Naruto clone allows the opponent to shunshin in, doesn't use shunshin himself at all, relies on taijustu, doesn't use chakra arms, and is more interested in gathering information isn't a threat to any Sannin in CQC.



As if Itachi was being fully serious.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Pretty sure they ALL could so that causally. Tsuande would actually end up killing Naruto the moment her fist made contact with Naruto's arm.
> 
> A 7% KCM Naruto clone allows the opponent to shunshin in, doesn't use shunshin himself at all, relies on taijustu, doesn't use chakra arms, and is more interested in gathering information isn't a threat to any Sannin in CQC.



KCM Naruto's kage bunshin was toying around with Ei of all people.Tsunade doenst even stand a chance in the speed department.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Genjutsu is included in my assessment.
> It's a dangerous aspect of Itachi's ability in CQC.



And how exactly does he go about getting Tusnade to look at those nasty eyes of his?



> His prowess in weaponry is second to none, as well.



What are Kunai supposed to do to Tsunade. 



> She'll have trouble landing one hit on him - due to his better reflexes/speed and precognition.



If he focuses on evasion, she won't hit him.

However, if he engages her in _close quarters_, he can't block or parry, which more than makes up for any speed disadvantage. She can also just start hitting the ground with that Susano'o busting strength of her's, which is going to fuck up his footing. _Really_ fuck it up.

There's also the fact that he can't even hurt her....


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Genjutsu is included in my assessment.
> It's a dangerous aspect of Itachi's ability in CQC.
> 
> Even though she has great control over her chakra, every second counts against someone like Itachi. His prowess in weaponry is second to none, as well. She'll have trouble landing one hit on him - due to his better reflexes/speed and precognition - so the addition of illusions/weapons would be two things she can't afford to focus on.



The assumption that Itachi literally cannot be hit in this battle is as ridiculous as it gets.

Rusty and injured Tsunade was able to outright blitz Oro, the same Oro was tangoing with 4K Naruto. Not only this but she sports a perfect taijustu stat, has ridiculous CQC hype, and has power said to match this: which is why Hanzo warned them to tread carefully despite the distance 

Tsuande gets serious and punches the ground; Itachi gets caught in the AOE and torn to bits. It would be suicide for Itachi to engage CQC with Tsuande without Sussano.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> And how exactly does he go about getting Tusnade to look at those nasty eyes of his?


All it takes is one glance literally.



> What are Kunai supposed to do to Tsunade.


Most likely stab her in the heart and kunais can harm Hashirama so she isnt excused from them.



> If he focuses on evasion, she won't hit him.
> 
> However, if he engages her in close quarters, he can't block or parry, which more than makes up for any speed disadvantage.
> 
> There's also the fact that he can't even hurt her....


Itachi is faster than Tsunade so she cant hit him in close combat while he can speedblitz her or simply glance in her eyes and put her under genjutsu then stab her in the heart.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> What speed feats suggest that base Jiraiya can do so?
> 
> 
> 
> As if Itachi was being fully serious.



Weakened Jirayia was matching Oro perfectly in CQC. So healthy Jirayia has the feats to compete against 4k Naruto in CQC. Id say he's more then confortable going head to head with KCM Naruto relying solely on taijustu.

Itachi was being controlled by Kabuto. He had no choice.

@shinryu.

That was KCM Naruto himself. He also was not "toying" with anyone considering he and bee together had trouble getting past V1 Ay and he only dodged V2 Ay once . He also was frequently using shunshin which he wasn't against Itachi.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Jun 17, 2014)

Wow that Base Jiraiya.

React to a Shunshin that surprises Bee.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 17, 2014)

It's not like Itachi's genjutsu are inescapable either, with Tsunade's chakra control she should do it just fine

Base Jiraiya also made both Kisame and Itachi run away due to them thinking that even together they could at best tie him


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> All it takes is one glance literally.
> 
> 
> Most likely stab her in the heart and kunais can harm Hashirama so she isnt excused from them.
> ...



Tsuande could tank Yasaka Magamata. He isn't breaching Tsuande skin with anything less then a full throttle Sussano stab.

He doesn't have the speed feats to blunt someone who could go CQC with 5 V3 sussanos.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> He also was frequently using shunshin which he wasn't against Itachi.
> Likes boss is online now  Add to Likes boss's Reputation  Report Post



Do enlighten me how the hell you can tell the difference between extreme speed and shunshin.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> All it takes is one glance literally.



I know.

And why would she glance at his eyes.



> Most likely stab her in the heart and kunais can harm Hashirama so she isnt excused from them.



Hashirama was never significantly wounded by a Kunai, but regardless, what does he have to do with Tsunade?

How is stabbing her heart going to matter in the face or organ regeneration? 



> Itachi is faster than Tsunade so she cant hit him in close combat.



There are plenty of ways for slower people to hit faster ones.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Wow that Base Jiraiya.
> 
> React to a Shunshin that surprises Bee.



Yet couldn't actually hit bee


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 17, 2014)

Itachi fans assume that all his opponents ever do is stand there and stare at his eyes and let him stab them with a kunai or set them on fire. Tsunade actually counters Itachi decently (assuming she eventually lands a hit) when he's in base and he's not beating Jiraiya in CQC or at range, his only hope being him falling for genjutsu which he won't because he has knowledge


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> I know.
> 
> And why would she glance at his eyes.


She doesnt have to do it.All he has to do is look in her eyes for a split second and the genjutsu is activated.



> Hashirama was never significantly wounded by a Kunai, but regardless, what does he have to do with Tsunade?
> 
> How is stabbing her heart going to matter in the face or organ regeneration?


Hashirama is more durable than Tsunade yet got pierced by a kunai which means kunais can pierce Tsunade.

Lets be serious for a moment once your heart is stabbed up your dead buddy.Her heart was still inside her torso when she got bisected.



> There are plenty of ways for slower people to hit faster ones.



True but Tsunade has none.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Do enlighten me how the hell you can tell the difference between extreme speed and shunshin.



If he's moving his legs and traveling a distance( like a sprint or run) he's most likely using shunshin. He only engaged in hand to hand combat against Itachi.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yet couldn't actually hit bee



Because Itachi wants information from Naruto.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> If he's moving his legs and traveling a distance( like a sprint or run) he's most likely using shunshin. He only engaged in hand to hand combat against Itachi.



Regardless he was still fighting someone faster than Tsunade.


----------



## Krippy (Jun 17, 2014)

Superior speed, precog, and genjustu should give him the win every time. None of them can even touch him really.

Even without all these restrictions he's solidly above the level the sannin operate at.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> And how exactly does he go about getting Tusnade to look at those nasty eyes of his?



No one has shown the ability to fight like Gai.
If Tsunade tries to avoid Itachi's eyes, she is already at a disadvantage from the start.

For example, he can incinerate her beautiful face with Katon.

...and he can cast illusions with his finger, btw. 



> What are Kunai supposed to do to Tsunade.



As if Tsunade can tank a full-speed kunai to the skull. 



> If he focuses on evasion, she won't hit him.
> 
> However, if he engages her in _close quarters_, he can't block or parry, which more than makes up for any speed disadvantage.



That's where Itachi's trickery comes in.
It's going to be "Killer B vs. MS Sasuke" fight all over again, but she can actually heal from his attacks. Itachi will run circles around her and create a human pincushion. Once he realizes that she can heal from said attacks, he's going to know something is up.

The likelihood of genjutsu landing is far higher than Tsunade being able to touch Itachi...
From there, he can do his magic and take her out the same way Oro was eliminated. 



> There's also the fact that he can't even hurt her....



There are many ways to hurt Tsunade; she just heals from everything with Byakugou. 
Its regeneration can be bypassed, however. And Itachi might take a nasty shot before it's active.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> She doesnt have to do it.All he has to do is look in her eyes for a split second and the genjutsu is activated.



Genjutsu is initiated by _mutual_ eye contact.



> Hashirama is more durable.



Based on?



> Lets be serious for a moment once your heart is stabbed up your dead buddy.Her heart was still inside her torso when she got bisected.



Byakugo regenerates all organs.

The heart is an organ. 



> True but Tsunade has none.



Busting the ground upon which he stands is one.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Because Itachi wants information from Naruto.



Has nothing to to with bee. And Itachi was being controlled by Kabuto.

@Shinryu. 

No he wasn't. Naruto's speed comes from his shunshin. Not his taijustu ability. I don't care how fast Ay is. If he was restricted to only Taijustu, he'd get obliterated by Tsuande.


----------



## Fox91 (Jun 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There are plenty of ways for slower people to hit faster ones.



Give me examples of ways that Tsunade can do against Itachi...

Inb4 punching the ground... Lol


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The assumption that Itachi literally cannot be hit in this battle is as ridiculous as it gets.
> 
> Rusty and injured Tsunade was able to outright blitz Oro, the same Oro was tangoing with 4K Naruto. Not only this but she sports a perfect taijustu stat, has ridiculous CQC hype, and has power said to match this: which is why Hanzo warned them to tread carefully despite the distance
> 
> Tsuande gets serious and punches the ground; Itachi gets caught in the AOE and torn to bits. It would be suicide for Itachi to engage CQC with Tsuande without Sussano.



Orochimaru is very sluggish and tanks attacks because he feels like it. 
And his condition was far worse in the fight against Tsunade. 

Merely punching the ground isn't going to KO Itachi...
The Itachi underestimation is really unbelievable. NBD has become something else. 


If you want to see how Itachi is portrayed against Sannin, watch the different scenes with Itachi and Orochimaru. They're below Itachi and always will be.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> Genjutsu is initiated by mutual eye contact.


No Itachi looks you in the eye and thats it man.Even KCM Naruto had to warn Bee not to look in his eyes.



> Based on?



This



> Byakugo regenerates all organs.
> 
> The heart is an organ.



Cant regenerate if your dead. 

Oh do go on maybe she can even regenerate her brain tissue even if head is chopped in half.



> Busting the ground upon which he stands is one.


She would long dead before that even happens



> No he wasn't. Naruto's speed comes from his shunshin. Not his taijustu ability. I don't care how fast Ay is. If he was restricted to only Taijustu, he'd get obliterated by Tsuande.



Taijutsu ability has squat to do with speed in this manga lmao.It has to do with power because this is a shonen manga.Taijutsu only applies to Gai and Lee.

Lol you are seriously an idiot if you think Tsunade is faster than KCM Naruto.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> No one has shown the ability to fight like Gai.
> If Tsunade tries to avoid Itachi's eyes, she is already at a disadvantage from the start.



How does avoiding direct eye contact really disadvantage somebody.



> For example, he can incinerate her beautiful face with Katon.
> 
> ...and he can cast illusions with his finger, btw.



Fire Ball Jutsu will do a grand total of nothing (and she can just smack it away), and Ephemeral's best feat is ensnaring Base Nardo with Dat 2 in Genjutsu and 1.5 in seals/chakra control. 



> As if Tsunade can tank a full-speed kunai to the skull.



lol

It's a Kunai.

She endured a lightspeed shredder jutsu with some minor wounds and healed everything off with creation rebirth. 



> Itachi will run circles around her and create a human pincushion. Once he realizes that she can heal from said attacks, he's going to know something is up.



She can just break the ground to stop his circle running shenanigans, provided he actually does that and doesn't just rush into melee range, because he loves to start within melee range..



> The likelihood of genjutsu landing is far higher than Tsunade being able to touch Itachi...



I would love to see how you calculated this probability. 



> There are many ways to hurt Tsunade; she just heals from everything with Byakugou.



Itachi doesn't really pack many, if any.


----------



## Fiiction (Jun 17, 2014)

Fox91 said:


> Lol
> 
> This thread just reminds me that Lord Itachi is the Solo King



But blind madara is above him. Lololol


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Orochimaru is very sluggish and tanks attacks because he feels like it.
> And his condition was far worse in the fight against Tsunade.
> 
> Merely punching the ground isn't going to KO Itachi...
> ...



Doesn't change the fact that he still had the ability to dodge attacks from 4k Naruto.  

Yeah? And? Tsunade was rusty AND injured when she blitzed Oro. A mere fraction of her current speed. She is more then capable of pressuring Itachi in CQC.

In not underestimating Itachi. Stripping him from both Sussano and Amaterasu and saying he losses against a Sannin is not an underestimation.

@shinryu 

What the fuck? Taijustu proficiency and speed makes up like 90% of your CQC speed lol. When the hell did I ever say Tsuande was faster then KCM Naruto ???


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Weakened Jirayia was matching Oro perfectly in CQC. So healthy Jirayia has the feats to compete against 4k Naruto in CQC. Id say he's more then confortable going head to head with KCM Naruto relying solely on taijustu.



KN4 Naruto couldn't even react to sick Orochimaru punching him in the face. Itachi essentially fodderized Orochimaru in his prime. SM Naruto, who is slower than KCM Naruto, was able to decisively react to and dodge Raikagenaut's Nukite from literally an inch away.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

Itachi mindfucks Killer Bee and even tells him dont look in his eyes.
Duking it out with KCM Naruto
Magaka has same force as KCM Naruto rasenshuriken



> What the fuck? Taijustu proficiency and speed makes up like 90% of your CQC speed lol.



Welcome to manga where logic goes out the window.Lol if you think taijutsu profiency has to do with speed in this manga.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> No Itachi looks you in the eye and thats it man.Even KCM Naruto had to warn Bee not to look in his eyes.





Read what you just wrote.

Naruto told B _*not to look at Itachi.*_ He didn't say "Don't let Itachi look at you."




> This



Hashirama used _Mokuton_ to survive that.



> Cant regenerate if your dead.



A Kunai to the heart isn't going to immediately kill the person that ran around with two Susano'o blades lodged in her midsection. 

Shit, I think Haku survived being stabbed in the heart by Raikiri for a few seconds.



> She would long dead before that even happens



Not unless she kills herself.


----------



## Fox91 (Jun 17, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> But blind madara is above him. Lololol



It takes a solo clan massacre and a non-given defeat to Madara gain the Solo King title


----------



## Fiiction (Jun 17, 2014)

Fox91 said:


> It takes a solo clan massacre and a non-given defeat to Madara gain the Solo King title



But madara solo'd the ENTIRE planet except 10 people. And u think the uchiha massacre is a great feat HA!


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> How does avoiding direct eye contact really disadvantage somebody.


Itachi is fast you need to constantly look at him to not die.



> She endured a lightspeed shredder jutsu with some minor wounds and healed everything off with creation rebirth.


So could any anyone with her durability or higher you know like Itachi 



> She can just break the ground to stop his circle running shenanigans, provided he actually does that and doesn't just rush into melee range, because he loves to start within melee range..


He can get out of her range before she can react.Ground breaking wont do shit.



> Hashirama used Mokuton to survive that.


You arent seriously saying Hashirama is as durable as Tsunade.Get out now.



> A Kunai to the heart isn't going to immediately kill the person that ran around with two Susano'o blades lodged in her midsection.
> 
> Shit, I think Haku survived being stabbed in the heart by Raikiri for a few seconds.



Oh well she cant survive a brain stab




> Not unless she kills herself.


Wont happen because Itachi will kill her.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> How does avoiding direct eye contact really disadvantage somebody.



Because she's unable to fight the same way as Gai.
Sooner or later, she's going to fail at it and catch a Sharingan.



> Fire Ball Jutsu will do a grand total of nothing (and she can just smack it away), and Ephemeral's best feat is ensnaring Base Nardo with Dat 2 in Genjutsu and 1.5 in seals/chakra control.



How is she going to "smack away" a fireball that can't be seen until the last moment?
...if it's seen at all. 

Katon will burn her face and basically force Byakugou to activate; that's assuming she is still alive from said burns. 



> lol
> 
> It's a Kunai.



A kunai is capable of killing Hashirama, who happens to have greater/equal prowess in the healing department.



> She endured a lightspeed shredder jutsu with some minor wounds and healed everything off with creation rebirth.



There's no indication said technique had sharp objects that pierced her vitals.



> She can just break the ground to stop his circle running shenanigans, provided he actually does that and doesn't just rush into melee range, because he loves to start within melee range..



Breaking the ground would hinder Tsunade's movement, as well...
And it wouldn't even matter, anyway. As it stands, Itachi is tiers faster than her and can avoid anything she throws at him.



> I would love to see how you calculated this probability.



Itachi has many ways to cast genjutsu, from eye contact to physical contact.
His speed and precognition granted by Sharingan counter her useless attempts. 



> Itachi doesn't really pack many, if any.



If Hashirama could have been killed by a kunai, I'm sure Tsunade would suffer the same fate.
Don't get me wrong... I'm one of Hashirama's biggest fans on this forum, but his regeneration isn't going to restore vital organs like brain/heart. 

The damage that Madara healed from Shimon Gai can also be attributed to regeneration of Juubi Jins. After all, Hashirama's DNA was unable to reform his lost arm.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> KN4 Naruto couldn't even react to sick Orochimaru punching him in the face. Itachi essentially fodderized Orochimaru in his prime. SM Naruto, who is slower than KCM Naruto, was able to decisively react to and dodge Raikagenaut's Nukite from literally an inch away.



So? That's a feat for Oro. Not a reason to downplay 4k Naruto.

Itachi only won because Oro was being extremely prideful and like Itachi dead in his eyes. That also has nothing to do with anything you've said lately.

Sage Naruto is better then KCM Naruto in cqc skirmishes. He directly chose Sage mode because he can use sage sencing to react at the last moment: _Mokuton_


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> Sage Naruto is better then KCM Naruto in cqc skirmishes.



Wow you have to be stupid to think SM Naruto is actually faster than KCM Naruto.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> [
> Magaka has same force as KCM Naruto rasenshuriken


By what logic is Yasaka Magatama on the same level as a KCM FRS or Standard bijuudama?


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> By what logic is Yasaka Magatama on the same level as a KCM FRS or Standard bijuudama?



The force is comparable to the KCM Rasenshuriken because without it,they wouldnt be able to destroy the gravity core.


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> So? That's a feat for Oro. Not a reason to downplay 4k Naruto.



It's not a reason to think he's able to compete against a _much_ faster version of Naruto. 



> Itachi only won because Oro was being extremely prideful and like Itachi dead in his eyes. That also has nothing to do with anything you've said lately.



Itachi is above what Orochimaru can handle period. Whether it be an all out fight or a simple taijutsu match, he loses.



> Sage Naruto is better then KCM Naruto in cqc skirmishes. He directly chose Sage mode because he can use sage sencing to react at the last moment: Magaka has same force as KCM Naruto rasenshuriken



But he doesn't have the edge in _raw speed_. Not even close.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Itachi mindfucks Killer Bee and even tells him dont look in his eyes.
> Duking it out with KCM Naruto
> Magaka has same force as KCM Naruto rasenshuriken
> 
> ...



? Bee is a WHOLEEEEE lot dumber then Tsuande. Itachi catching him in Genjustu amounts to what ? 

? Engaging in taijustu with KCM Naruto which is ALOT different.

? Lol so I guess Magamata are as powerful as explosive tags too huh?: Magaka has same force as KCM Naruto rasenshuriken

Concession accepted.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Doesn't change the fact that he still had the ability to dodge attacks from 4k Naruto.



He can't dodge 14-year-old Itachi's genjutsu and kunai. 

14-year-old Itachi > KN4 Naruto > Orochimaru
I mean, Sharingan is Kyuubi's weakness. 



> Yeah? And? Tsunade was rusty AND injured when she blitzed Oro. A mere fraction of her current speed. She is more then capable of pressuring Itachi in CQC.



And Orochimaru had a portion of his soul ripped out not too long before that.
They were both in bad shape. 

In P2, Orochimaru seemingly recovered from that pain, and his body's rejection was the only thing holding him back.



> In not underestimating Itachi. Stripping him from both Sussano and Amaterasu and saying he losses against a Sannin is not an underestimation.



Base Itachi defeated Orochimaru without effort; that's how Kishi views him. 
It is underestimation to say Itachi loses, especially when all Sannin are stripped.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> It's not a reason to think he's able to compete against a _much_ faster version of Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Too bad the much faster version of Naruto wasn't using the only thing that makes him much faster. Chakra arms and shunshin are the reasons KCM Naruto is a top tier speedster. Not taijustu.

Itachi with MS is above Oro yeah that's true. But he doesn't have MS here.

Too bad KCM Naruto never used his raw speed against Itachi. Merely taijustu skill.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Blind, dying Itachi w/ MS raped Orochimaru. A fresh one with Yamata no Orochi, at that...


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> Bee is a WHOLEEEEE lot dumber then Tsuande. Itachi catching him in Genjustu amounts to what ?


Now you are derping because intelligence has jack shit to do with susceptibility to genjutsu.Itachi LOOKS IN YOUR EYE and thats it man.


> Engaging in taijustu with KCM Naruto which is ALOT different.


KCM Naruto is super fast and faster than Tsunade case closed.I dont know why you are complicating this with your taijutsu profiency bullshit.


> Lol so I guess Magamata are as powerful as explosive tags too huh?


Assuming characters actually use their attack at their strongest all the time.Of course not ,are you stupid?


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> He can't dodge 14-year-old Itachi's genjutsu and kunai.
> 
> 14-year-old Itachi > KN4 Naruto > Orochimaru
> I mean, Sharingan is Kyuubi's weakness.
> ...



Of course Oro is screwed if he looks Itachi dead in his eye sockets. If he doesn't then he lasts just fine then.

So? Oro had his arms ripped off, and was coughing blood. That was the extent of his weakness.  Tsunade as a taijustu specialist hadn't fought in over 10 years, had her mid section destroyed, and was floored and could still blitz weakened Oro. A healthy current Tsuande could blitz the Oro that could tango with 4k Naruto. 

Except Jirayia is viewed by Kishi on the level of Kisame and Itachi together, and all the Sannin are equal. Obvious Kishi isn't thinking much.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Now you are derping because intelligence has jack shit to do with susceptibility to genjutsu.Itachi LOOKS IN YOUR EYE and thats it man.
> 
> KCM Naruto is super fast and faster than Tsunade case closed.I dont know why you are complicating this with your taijutsu profiency bullshit.
> 
> Assuming characters actually use their attack at their strongest all the time.Of course not ,are you stupid?



Intelligence has a lot to do with having the self control to not look into Itachis eyes.
If it helps, Tsunade was able to forcibly break her phobia of blood instantly during a battle. She has more the enough self control to avoid eye contact.

KCM Naruto is only super duper fast when using shunshin and chakra arms. He uses neither against Itachi.

So you are assuming Yasaka jumped jumped from explosive tag level to FRS lvl? Or do parallels have nothing to do with overall power?


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Too bad the much faster version of Naruto wasn't using the only thing that makes him much faster. Chakra arms and shunshin are the reasons KCM Naruto is a top tier speedster. Not taijustu.



Even still, that Naruto is still leagues faster than the Sannin.



> Itachi with MS is above Oro yeah that's true. But he doesn't have MS here.



Not even. Itachi didn't need to his MS to fodderize Orochimaru back then. When Orochimaru brought out "Yamata no Orochi", his strongest technique (bar Edo Tensei), Itachi proceeded to fodderize him again. In a weakened state. 

Like I said, Itachi's been portrayed as above what Orochimaru can handle. Only SM Jiraiya has any sort of chance against Itachi and even then, the odds are still heavily stacked against him.



> Too bad KCM Naruto never used his raw speed against Itachi. Merely taijustu skill.



He has to physically move his body to perform taijutsu, so he's using *actual* movement speed in doing so.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> Intelligence has a lot to do with having the self control to not look into Itachis eyes.
> If it helps, Tsunade was able to forcibly break her phobia of blood instantly during a battle. She has more the enough self control to avoid eye contact.


What part of all Itachi has to do is look in your eye cant you understand? They dont have to look in his eye he has to look in their eye.Its that simple.


> KCM Naruto is only super duper fast when using shunshin and chakra arms. He uses neither against Itachi.


Enough with the shunshin he is faster than Tsunde thats all that matters.


> So you are assuming Yasaka jumped jumped from explosive tag level to FRS lvl? Or do parallels have nothing to do with overall power?


No I believe fictional characters can control the damage output of their own attacks.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Even still, that Naruto is still leagues faster than the Sannin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Faster then the Sannin using shunshin yes. Did he use shunshin against Itachi ? No. 


Itachi used his Sussano to fodderize Oro.
Does he have Sussano here ? No.

The Sannin are stated as equals, and Itachi + Kisame together were stated to stalemate Jirayia. Explain the logic here?

When has it been stated that Naruto has incredible arm speed ? Also if Naruto in KCM has faster hand speed then in SM, then explain why he needed SM to defeat the Sandaime.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Faster then the Sannin using shunshin yes. Did he use shunshin against Itachi ? No.
> 
> 
> Itachi used his Sussano to fodderize Oro.
> ...



It was because of reactions rather than speed


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> What part of all Itachi has to do is look in your eye cant you understand? They dont have to look in his eye he has to look in their eye.Its that simple.
> 
> Enough with the shunshin he is faster than Tsunde thats all that matters.
> 
> No I believe fictional characters can control the damage output of their own attacks.



That's extremely false. Both opponents have to make eye contact.

Not faster or better in taijustu. Only in movement speed and attacking using KB and chakra arms. Which didn't happen at all against Itachi.

Provide one instance in Naruto where this is true .


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> Faster then the Sannin using shunshin yes. Did he use shunshin against Itachi ? No.


KCM Naruto is a high tier that makes him faster than the Sannin by default


> Itachi used his Sussano to fodderize Oro.
> Does he have Sussano here ? No.


Itachi doesnt need Susanoo to even beat Oro.He can put him in a coma with the spike genjutsu.


> The Sannin are stated as equals, and Itachi + Kisame together were stated to stalemate Jirayia. Explain the logic here?


None of the Sannin are even equal to eachother.Jiraiya has more damage output than Oro while Tsunade if physically stronger than both.Kisame and Itachi would destroy Jiraiya.


> When has it been stated that Naruto has incredible arm speed ? Also if Naruto in KCM has faster hand speed then in SM, then explain why he needed SM to defeat the Sandaime.


SM senses(not reacts to) movements better thats why.Idk wtf you are even talking about with this arm speed nonsense.



> That's extremely false. Both opponents have to make eye contact.


You do know Itachi looking in someone's eye is both people making eye contact genius.


> Not faster or better in taijustu. Only in movement speed and attacking using KB and chakra arms. Which didn't happen at all against Itachi.


KCM Naruto would knock Tsunade's head and he is faster than her.Look stop overanalyzing things already.


> Provide one instance in Naruto where this is true .


Dragonballz


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> It was because of reactions rather than speed



True. Still useless as KCM Naruto is only superior to Sage Naruto in speed by movement speed.


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Faster then the Sannin using shunshin yes. Did he use shunshin against Itachi ? No.



Faster in general.



> Itachi used his Sussano to fodderize Oro.



Not as a 13 year old. 



> Does he have Sussano here ? No.



Does he need it to beat the Sannin _in their base form_? No.



> The Sannin are stated as equals, and Itachi + Kisame together were stated to stalemate Jirayia. Explain the logic here?



Inconsistency. Lots of it. This isn't exactly anything new to the manga.
. 


> When has it been stated that Naruto has incredible arm speed ?



I'm talking about evading, jumping back, etc. He physically moves his body to accomplish that. Itachi was keeping pace with him.



> Also if Naruto in KCM has faster hand speed then in SM, then explain why he needed SM to defeat the Sandaime.



Because he lacks the sensory abilities need to perfectly time his counterattack. He outright stated this in the manga and that was pretty evident where he was put in a situation where one slip up and he gets his face turned into a donut.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> True. Still useless as KCM Naruto is only superior to Sage Naruto in speed by movement speed.



No KCM is faster on the whole.Why the fuck do you think Naruto constantly uses it in favor of SM genius?


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Of course Oro is screwed if he looks Itachi dead in his eye sockets. If he doesn't then he lasts just fine then.



That's always a factor in fights against Itachi.

Orochimaru has 5-tier genjutsu in that DB, which means his offense and defense should be extraordinary. 
Itachi's basic illusion and one kunai dispatched Oro within seconds.

The other Sannin wouldn't fare any better, buddy.



> So? Oro had his arms ripped off, and was coughing blood. That was the extent of his weakness.  Tsunade as a taijustu specialist hadn't fought in over 10 years, had her mid section destroyed, and was floored and could still blitz weakened Oro. A healthy current Tsuande could blitz the Oro that could tango with 4k Naruto.



Need I remind you of the immense pain Orochimaru was experiencing at the time?
It's the reason why he sought out Tsunade in the first place. His damage received from Shiki Fuujin amounts to more than her lack of fighting for 10 years.

It doesn't really matter, anyway. KN4 is beyond Sannin level, so Orochimaru isn't going to *completely* dick around. 

You're the one who didn't agree with "blitzing" arguments earlier in this conversation, but you think Tsunade "blitzes" and "blitzes" everything. Tsunade has never been called a speedster of sorts, and her DB score verifies that assertion.



> Except Jirayia is viewed by Kishi on the level of Kisame and Itachi together, and all the Sannin are equal. Obvious Kishi isn't thinking much.



Kishi is thinking in the right place, actually.
Itachi wasn't an enemy of Konoha, and anyone who thinks Jiraiya can take Itachi and Kisame w/ backup is delusional. 

That's why we look at feats.
14-year-old Itachi defeated a fellow Sannin with no effort.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> KCM Naruto is a high tier that makes him faster than the Sannin by default
> 
> Itachi doesnt need Susanoo to even beat Oro.He can put him in a coma with the spike genjutsu.
> 
> ...



That's ridiculous logic. Nagato is a high tier. Doesn't mean he's faster then V2 Ay.

Only if Oro looks directly into his eyes.

That's why the Sannin were created. I'm not saying they are literal equals. But that's what they were intended to be by Kishi. So whenever someone says something about Kishi intending for Itachi to be superior to Oro. I say the Sannin are intended as equals, and Jirayia is intended to be superior to Itachi ? Kisame or atleast equal to them.  Which all would be false, so fuck all the "intention shit" that people throw at me.

Arm speed has to do with his proficiency in taijustu. 

Okay so as long as Tsuande isn't looking in his eyes then he can't Genjustu.

He would rape Tsuande if he wasn't restricted to only taijustu.

Except this isn't DBZ.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Faster in general.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually no. KCM Naruto without shunshin is slower then V1 Ay. A Sannin member and sage Naruto can keep up with that speed comfortably.

That was also oro looking dead into his eyes. Which remind me again has what to do with Itachis CQC skill?

If it's inconsistent. Then what's the point of making the claim of Itachi> Oro.

Proof? As far as I'm concerned, only his shunshin is lethal. 

True.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> That's always a factor in fights against Itachi.
> 
> Orochimaru has 5-tier genjutsu in that DB, which means his offense and defense should be extraordinary.
> Itachi's basic illusion and one kunai dispatched Oro within seconds.
> ...


It's only a factor if you are as arrogant as Oro in that instance. Too bad the other Sannin aren't.

That only trumps Tsuande being rusty. That doesn't trump Tsuande blitzing him from a floored postition or Tsuande feeling the pain of her mid section being bisected.

Oro wouldn't dick around with someone considered his equal anyway.

What? I only said because Tsunade can blitz ORO CQC, that she can pressure Itachi. Nothing else.

Don't bring up DB for part 1 Tsuande. I could trash that anyday.

If you want to talk about feats then Itachi can only defeat a Sannin it he gets them in the same position as Oro. Tsuande won't just blankly look into his eyes. She happened to not do that against Madara Uchiha.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> That's ridiculous logic. Nagato is a high tier. Doesn't mean he's faster then V2 Ay.


Wrong the fact Nagato can tangle with KCM Naruto means he is already faster than Ei.


> Only if Oro looks directly into his eyes.


Are you stupid?
Oro doesnt have to look.Itachi can just look him in the eye.


> That's why the Sannin were created. I'm not saying they are literal equals. But that's what they were intended to be by Kishi. So whenever someone says something about Kishi intending for Itachi to be superior to Oro. I say the Sannin are intended as equals, and Jirayia is intended to be superior to Itachi ? Kisame or atleast equal to them. Which all would be false, so fuck all the "intention shit" that people throw at me.


So you intentionally ignore canon facts in favor of retconned part 1 bullshit.Get out.


> Arm speed has to do with his proficiency in taijustu.


You will never prove KCM Naruto is as slow as Tsunade so give up.


> Okay so as long as Tsuande isn't looking in his eyes then he can't Genjustu.


Jesus christ I already explained why it doesnt matter what Tsunade does.


> He would rape Tsuande if he wasn't restricted to only taijustu.


No he would rape Tsunade in Taijutsu because hes physically stronger than her and faster than her.


> Except this isn't DBZ.


You asked for an instance.


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Actually no. KCM Naruto without shunshin is slower then V1 Ay.



Approximately equal is more like it. 



> A Sannin member and sage Naruto can keep up with that speed comfortably.



Except they won't. Tsunade expressed shock that Naruto was keeping up with Ei's speed. SM Jiraiya _possibly_ can but he doesn't have Sage Mode here. 



> Which remind me again has what to do with Itachis CQC skill?



As I said, he's above Orochimaru in virtually every way.



> If it's inconsistent. Then what's the point of making the claim of Itachi> Oro.



Because that's one of the things he *has* remained consistent with. He's not completely inconsistent 100% of the time and vice versa.



> Proof? As far as I'm concerned, only his shunshin is lethal.



KCM Naruto has *extraordinary* movement speed. Evading, jumping back, etc = physical movement. Itachi was keeping pace with him, even if only briefly.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> The force is comparable to the KCM Rasenshuriken because *without it,they wouldnt be able to destroy the gravity core.*



The unbolded doesn't logically follow from the bolded.  YM doesn't have to be anywhere near as powerful as a KCM FRS in order for it + KCM FRS + Bijuudama being required to bust the gravity core.

The YM could have done 1% of the work, the FRS done 9% and the bijuudama 90%, and you'd still have all three techniques required.

On the otherhand, YM could have done 98% of the workd while FRS does 1% and bijuudama does 1% and all three techs would have been required.

You might say 'by portrayal, 3 most powerful long range techs used by 3 characters at the same level, used right alongside each other suggests equality of the techs', but that portrayal is straight up falsified since we know bijuudama is on another tier of power compared to FRS.  

So you have to argue by feats or other instances.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> The unbolded doesn't logically follow from the bolded.  YM doesn't have to be anywhere near as powerful as a KCM FRS in order for it + KCM FRS + Bijuudama being required to bust the gravity core.
> 
> The YM could have done 1% of the work, the FRS done 9% and the bijuudama 90%, and you'd still have all three techniques required.
> 
> ...



Stop overthinking assume the BD did 50% while the others did 25%.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Wrong the fact Nagato can tangle with KCM Naruto means he is already faster than Ei.
> 
> Are you stupid?
> Oro doesnt have to look.Itachi can just look him in the eye.
> ...



ARE YOU SERIOUS ? So Nagato > V2 Ay in speed ?

Then so explain why any character in the manga tells anybody to avoid eye contact with Uchihas ? It's because both opponent have to make eye contact with eachother to be caught in Genjustu.

All of this happened in part 1? What the hell are you talking about.

You will never prove KCM Naruto without shunshin can beat Tsunade in CQC taijustu so give up. 

You haven't explained shit in this entire thread.

So now he's physically stronger then Tsuande ? Can he bust Sussano now with a punch ? And he is less skilled in taijustu then her so he doesn't win.

Give me an instance in this manga.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Approximately equal is more like it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No. Bee and Naruto together couldn't get past V1 Ay. That's not equal.

Give me a panel of Tsunades shock.

Give me evidence to show that Itachi is superior in everyway. That kinda your job . So far we can only assume that Itachi an defeat any incarnation of Edo-less Oro with Sussano, and he can defeat a prideful Oro if Oro looks directly in his eye.

So explain why that instance is consistent while the other isn't.

Give me panels of KCM Naruto showing amazing speed while not using shunshin at all. Just saying shit doesn't amount to much. And Itachi was only capable of keeping up with his taijustu, Naruto never had a chance to show speed because itachi never stopped engaging him in taijustu.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> ARE YOU SERIOUS ? So Nagato > V2 Ay in speed ?


More like equal


> Then so explain why any character in the manga tells anybody to avoid eye contact with Uchihas ? It's because both opponent have to make eye contact with eachother to be caught in Genjustu.


Both people are making eye contact if their eyes meet at any moment genius


> You will never prove KCM Naruto without shunshin can beat Tsunade in CQC taijustu so give up.


KCM Naruto is still faster than her.


> So now he's physically stronger then Tsuande ? Can he bust Sussano now with a punch ? And he is less skilled in taijustu then her so he doesn't win.


Tsunade busted an incomplete Susanoo, and yes Naruto could break it.


> Give me an instance in this manga.


Normal    Bigger


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It's only a factor if you are as arrogant as Oro in that instance. Too bad the other Sannin aren't.



They wouldn't be any less vulnerable. 
That was Kishi's way of showing the gap between Itachi and Sannin. 



> That only trumps Tsuande being rusty. That doesn't trump Tsuande blitzing him from a floored postition or Tsuande feeling the pain of her mid section being bisected.



I don't see how any of that would trump the situation Orochimaru had been placed in. 
Orochimaru was experiencing necrosis from a portion of his soul being ripped out.

On top of that, he's a ninjutsu-oriented fighter and lacked such in their skirmish. If anything, the situation was far more disadvantageous for him. It doesn't include the fact that Tsunade has experienced similar pain in the past; she's a medical ninja and fought during the war.

Against Hanzou of all people...



> Oro wouldn't dick around with someone considered his equal anyway.



Orochimaru wouldn't fuck around against people who are capable of killing him.

Examples:
- Using his strongest technique, Yamata no Orochi, when he emerged from Sasuke's body to fight Itachi...

- Getting serious against KN4 when he summons Triple Rashoumon to block KN4 Bijuudama...

Those opponents and their techniques are capable of killing Orochimaru
He can actually afford to toy around with the likes of Jiraiya and Tsunade.



> What? I only said because Tsunade can blitz ORO CQC, that she can pressure Itachi. Nothing else.



She blitzed an Oro that was severely injured and generally toys around with his opponents...except when he knows that he's gonna need to step up his game (Itachi and KN4).



> Don't bring up DB for part 1 Tsuande. I could trash that anyday.



That score comes from DB3, my friend.
And her score in speed wouldn't fluctuate very much.



> If you want to talk about feats then Itachi can only defeat a Sannin it he gets them in the same position as Oro. Tsuande won't just blankly look into his eyes. She happened to not do that against Madara Uchiha.



Whether Itachi was using basic techniques or fighting on his deathbed, he schooled a Sannin with no effort. Orochimaru is the equal of Jiraiya and Tsunade; they have their strengths and weaknesses. But Itachi was portrayed to be beyond Sannin level. 

An impossible dream... Do you remember that?


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> More like equal
> 
> Both people are making eye contact if their eyes meet at any moment genius
> 
> ...



If you think Nagato and Ay are equal in speed then you may have problems.

That's why Tsuande never makes eye contact with Itachi you asshole. That's the point.

Only using shunshin.

Feats to suggest Naruto is physically stronger then Tsunade ?

Except in one panel Naruto has his BjuiiDama compressed and in the other he has has his BjuiiDama charged. In Itachis case, his Yasaka are the same size both times.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 17, 2014)

> If you think Nagato and Ay are equal in speed then you may have problems.


Nagato can catch RM Naruto offguard so hes faster than A since RM Naruto was toying with A in their fight.


> That's why Tsuande never makes eye contact with Itachi you asshole. That's the point.


Itachi makes eye contact asshole thats the fucking point.


> Feats to suggest Naruto is physically stronger then Tsunade ?


Kyuubi chakra can turn fodders into high tiers.Naruto is made of kyuubi chakra.


> Except in one panel Naruto has his BjuiiDama compressed and in the other he has has his BjuiiDama charged. In Itachis case, his Yasaka are the same size both times.


Power compression, and I showed you an instance now stfu.


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> No. Bee and Naruto together couldn't get past V1 Ay. That's not equal.



Ei had an edge but in the long run, they were on par with each other.



> Give me a panel of Tsunades shock.



[x]



> Give me evidence to show that Itachi is superior in everyway. That kinda your job . So far we can only assume that Itachi an defeat any incarnation of Edo-less Oro with Sussano, and he can defeat a prideful Oro if Oro looks directly in his eye.



The manga? Make a thread putting Itachi up against Orochimaru and 100% sure everyone will say Itachi wins and is superior to Orochimaru.



> So explain why that instance is consistent while the other isn't.



>Fodderized Orochimaru as a 13-year old
>Cited the difference between them is an "impossible dream"
>Orochimaru has outright admitted inferiority to Itachi
>Made Orochimaru's strongest jutsu look like a joke and sealed him while barely paying attention to him



> Give me panels of KCM Naruto showing amazing speed while not using shunshin at all. Just saying shit doesn't amount to much.



He doesn't Shunshin all the time. He wasn't using Shunshin for a majority of his scuffle with Ei yet was cited as being on a similar level of speed by Tsunade. He only used Shunshin when he dodged Ei's maximum speed.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Because she's unable to fight the same way as Gai.
> Sooner or later, she's going to fail at it and catch a Sharingan.



You didn't answer my question.

How is avoiding direct eye contact disadvantageous to a fighter? I mean, Tsunade didn't seem too disadvantaged against Madara...



> How is she going to "smack away" a fireball that can't be seen until the last moment?



I'm fairly certain she did just that against Madara.



> A kunai is capable of killing Hashirama, who happens to have greater/equal prowess in the healing department.



1.) I don't know what durability feats put Hashirama on Tsunade's level.

2.) I don't know where "greater/equal" prowess came from.



> There's no indication said technique had sharp objects that pierced her vitals.



Mabui's technique rips people to shreds.

Vitals are normally damaged when you are ripped to shreds. 



> Breaking the ground would hinder Tsunade's movement, as well...



Yeah, they'll be in free fall, where Itachi will forced to block, rather than evade.

Unless Itachi's arms are more durable than Susano'o, that's game.



> His speed and precognition granted by Sharingan counter her useless attempts.



I don't know where this keeps coming from. If his speed is truly a problem, she breaks the ground and takes away their footing.



> Don't get me wrong... I'm one of Hashirama's biggest fans on this forum, but his regeneration isn't going to restore vital organs like brain/heart.





			
				Databook said:
			
		

> Created by the greatest of medical ninja, Tsunade, this is the ultimate regeneration technique!! By releasing a large amount of chakra at once, the body's cell division is forcibly stimulated, reconstruction all organs and all tissues making up the human body!



There's a description of Creation Rebirth.

Now, let me see your evidence that indicates that the brain and heart are excluded from "all organs," because last time I checked..


They're organs.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> How is avoiding direct eye contact disadvantageous to a fighter? I mean, Tsunade didn't seem too disadvantaged against Madara...



Because fighting that way is unorthodox...for her, at least. Gai actually created that style to fight Kakashi, but she doesn't have the same ability. She's not fighting normally and is still vulnerable to finger genjutsu. 

Either way, it was never implied that she fought this way against Madara.
...so why would it be any different here? 

Madara has never shown genjutsu aptitude that's on par with Itachi, and Shisui is the only person who can match it through hype.

Of course Madara is gonna actively try to catch the speedster with his illusion; they're pests and need to be taken down for good. It doesn't mean he used means of genjutsu to eliminate others, though.



> I'm fairly certain she did just that against Madara.



It engulfed her entire face?
Itachi's Katon was so hot that Samehada had trouble absorbing it.

He can add shuriken to those flames for good measure.



> 1.) I don't know what durability feats put Hashirama on Tsunade's level.



His own version of Byakugou and having the complete body...
He's the epitome of Senju.



> 2.) I don't know where "greater/equal" prowess came from.



Madara himself



> Mabui's technique rips people to shreds.
> 
> Vitals are normally damaged when you are ripped to shreds.



Explain why they weren't ripped to shreds, then.
If I'm not mistaken, it's assumed that people are ripped to shreds. Hyperbole?
Ei, his father and Tsunade were the people who survived the technique.

But it was implied that Ei "might not" come out of it alive (50/50)...only because of his blood relation with Sandaime Raikage. The statement is more hyperbolic than anything.



> Yeah, they'll be in free fall, where Itachi will forced to block, rather than evade.
> Unless Itachi's arms are more durable than Susano'o, that's game.



So Tsunade is going to be hitting the ground while Itachi nails her with kunai and Katon?
What are you even saying, Rocky? 

I don't see how Itachi needs to block shit in free fall; he leaps through the obstacle like child's play. I don't recall her making a crater that reaches the core, tbh. 



> I don't know where this keeps coming from. If his speed is truly a problem, she breaks the ground and takes away their footing.



That's going to accomplish nothing. It only slows her down and gives Itachi more chances to make progress.

That's also assuming she doesn't get killed before said point.



> There's a description of Creation Rebirth.
> 
> Now, let me see your evidence that indicates that the brain and heart are excluded from "all organs," because last time I checked..
> 
> They're organs.



Hashirama's Byakugou was unable to reform the arm Madara had lost; he was forced to take it from Zetsu. In the end, it's a no-limits fallacy.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Because fighting that way is unorthodox...for her, at least.



Unorthodox? 

Why would anyone _want_ to look at their opponents eyes during a fight in the first place?



> Madara has never shown genjutsu aptitude that's on par with Itachi, and Shisui is the only person who can match it through hype.



We're talking about eye contact. Madara can cast ocular genjutsu, correct?



> It engulfed her entire face?
> Itachi's Katon was so hot that Samehada had trouble absorbing it.
> 
> He can add shuriken to those flames for good measure.



She swats it away before it engulfs her, Samehada absorbed Itachi's Katon completely, and flaming shuriken can be evaded or tanked. 



> His own version of Byakugou and having the complete body...
> He's the epitome of Senju.



Complete body?

Listen, go find me a scan that suggests Hashirama is more *durable* than Tsunade.



> Madara himself



There's a scan of Madara calling Hashirama's regeneration equal to or better than Tsunade's? Link?



> Explain why they weren't ripped to shreds, then.
> If I'm not mistaken, it's assumed that people are ripped to shreds. Hyperbole?
> Ei, his father and Tsunade were the people who survived the technique.



Durability, maybe? 

There is no reason to make an any assumptions. Mabui literally said "you'll be ripped to shreds if I use this on you." They weren't because they are durable. 



> So Tsunade is going to be hitting the ground while Itachi nails her with kunai and Katon?
> What are you even saying, Rocky?



Yes, considering she can regenerate whatever damage she receives from standard Kunai and basic firejutsu, and hitting ground can basically be accomplished at any time. 

She doesn't have to pay any mind to Itachi's offense.



> I don't see how Itachi needs to block shit in free fall; he leaps through the obstacle like child's play. I don't recall her making a crater that reaches the core, tbh.



You know, she can literally just smack her toe into the ground and create a _small fissure_, disrupting his footing and therefore nullifying his speed.

Presuming they're in melee range, since this _is_ a debate about CQC, she can then take advantage of said nullified speed and pink mist Itachi with a Susano'o busting hook.



> That's going to accomplish nothing. It only slows her down and gives Itachi more chances to make progress.



Make progress towards what, exactly, because I'm sure as hell it isn't towards killing her. 

Maybe towards tiring himself out with dat 2.5/5 stamina. 



> Hashirama's Byakugou.



Stopped here.

Hashirama's regeneration is not Tsunade's Byakugo.


----------



## Bonly (Jun 17, 2014)

Thanks to his speed, reactions and genjutsu Itachi can beat Tsunade and Orochi more times then not. Jiraiya would be the main problem since if Itachi isn't fast enough to jump over Yomi Numa and is near some trees(depending on the size of the swamp), Itachi could be pretty screwed.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jun 17, 2014)

I think Itachi could defeat them 1v1 using his superior speed and genjutsu. I feel Itachi's unorthodox tactics of ensnaring people in genjutsu are very hard to avoid, and his IC tendency to go for genjutsu early in the fight compounds this.

Orochimaru and Tsunade would be Itachi's harder matchups though imo, because while I see Itachi successfully managing to capture all three in genjutsu, I feel as though these 2 have higher amounts of resilience that will basically grant them a second chance against Itachi's genjutsu + battle experience on how to avoid it.

I still see Itachi eventually beating Tsunade even if she survives his first genjutsu attempt, but Orochimaru has a lot of base abilities that could own Itachi without Susano'o. 

I don't think hidden snake hands or that snake tidal wave are restricted and Orochimaru is pretty fast himself + has oral rebirth which he can use 2-3 times. Base Oro has a pretty damn solid arsenal; If Itachi can't genjutsu him he stands no chance against him in a conventional ninjutsu-taijutsu battle imo.


----------



## Richard Lionheart (Jun 17, 2014)

So basically a base Itachi without bunshins,right?
Tsunade should be able to rape,because you didn't restrict her regeneration.Jiraiya and Orochimaru probably take this with low difficulty.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Ei had an edge but in the long run, they were on par with each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ei having an edge doesn't clarify them being equal does it ? Lol ay had more then an edge . Let's go over that battle :

The first time Naruto Shunshins , Ay catches him in the air and punches the shit out of him: x

Ay then matches his speed : x

Ay then punches the shit out of Naruto again: x

Throws bee into Naruto: x

Tosses bee again, then Naruto uses his full powered shunshin and dodges Ay: x

Ay didn't have an edge at all. Ay was clearly faster then a KCM Naruto that couldn't control his shunshin correctly. All Naruto had to do was get past Ay with the help of bee and couldn't. You also have to realize that ninja are always using shunshin and basically never rely on just pure movement speed( except Gai and Lee). Kishi just doesn't waste the panel time illustrating every shunshin , rather implies that ninja use them frequently. So that entire battle, Naruto was using shunshin , NOT pure movement speed. So everytime he dashes it actually was a shunshin:

Naruto jumping here is a shunshin: x

His dash here is not movement speed but a shunshin: x

And clearly his last maneuver was a shunshin: Link removed
But notice how the last shunshin looks the same as anything else Naruto did ? We both know Naruto used a shunshin but Kishi neglected to illustrate such, giving us the notion that every dash or fast movement is most likely a shunshin.


That's not necessarily shock. That's her acknowledging that Naruto has grown in speed. That doesn't mean that Tsunade all of a sudden can't keep up with such speed. It's also to note that Tsunade noticed the increase in Naruto's movement speed while using shunshin. As the Raikage matched Naruto's shunshin.  Tsuande doesn't have any fast movement speed feats. She excels in speed bursts in CQC. So I wouldn't find it surprising that KCM Naruto will using his shunshin would be faster then any Sannin memeber, especially Tsuande who excels in CQC.

Except this isn't MS Itachi versus Oro. You seem to not grasp the concept that Itachis power grows leaps and bounds with the use of Sussano and Amaterasu. Those abilities trump anything Oro has, and of course Itachi wins with those, but base Itachi doesn't always beat Oro, only under the exact circumstance as the last encounter. You also have to realize that the lat time Itachi best oro it wasn't under perfectly normal conditions. Oro looked Itachi dead ass in his eye at the beginning of he match , it's not as if Itachi completed some complicated maneuver to entrap Oro in Genjustu , but he did not. Oro essentially put himself in Genjustu, so unless you believe that Oro is a complete dumbass then it's obvious they Oro thought he could challenge Itachis Genjustu and got beat.  You also cannot apply said outcome to to every Sannin just because they are considered equals. Tsuande and Jirayia are not going fall prey to the same tactics. Especially when they both have displayed incredible self control feats. You also happened to say that Itachi was better then Oro at literally everything. So id like something other then " he already beat Oro" to quantify this.

? look at the stipulations in hand when Itachi beat Oro. Oro had literally looked dead in his eye, an action no Kage level opponent will take. 

? A scan of the impossible dream.?

? Oro is outright inferior to MS Itachi, yes.

? while using his strongest Justu mind you. And he was obviously paying close attention to Oro as he had no other opponent. And yet again I may add that MS Itachi is indeed stronger then Oro but base Itachi only wins if oro looks directly in his eyes.

He used shunshin the entire time he was fighting eye. It's just not always directly illustrated. His last maneuver against ay was Indentical as his other movements. As much as you want to, you can't actually tell them apart, because Kishi didn't directly illustrate such. It's implied that a Ninja uses shunshin for a short burst of speed throughout a battle( happens a lot) so it obvious Naruto was using shunshin heavily throughout that battle.

Actually no. Let me just end this right here. Let's analyze this Itachi keeping up with KCM Naruto feat:

First Itachi Shunshins in before Naruto even moves, and Naruto shunshines up and meets him: Link removed

Naruto is then casually talking to Itachi as hey engage in taijustu( not a speed feat considering has ass taijustu): Link removed

Naruto then Shunshins away in the panel below .  There ya go. Itachi never kept up with an actual shunshin, and he never kept up with any raw movement speed to speak of. Naruto shunshined after Itachi war already above him, and then they enraged in taijustu, then Naruto shunshined away. This was also a 7% Naruto. Please explain why you wank that so much lol.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Nagato can catch RM Naruto offguard so hes faster than A since RM Naruto was toying with A in their fight.
> 
> Itachi makes eye contact asshole thats the fucking point.
> 
> ...



Show me any panels of Nagato catching Naruto using a shunshin off guard ? Furthermore that was 7% Naruto.

Tsunade never looks At Itachi to make eye contact ? 

That has nothing to do with his physical strentgh. Concession accepted.

Wtf? Expect that instance is completely  different then this stipulations considering the Damas were differ sizes. Show me a panel of the same character using a Justu the same size but the power being different.


----------



## Akitō (Jun 17, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> What part of all Itachi has to do is look in your eye cant you understand? They dont have to look in his eye he has to look in their eye.Its that simple.



Didn't Rocky crush this idea on the second page? Genjutsu requires both individuals to make eye contact. And you essentially said that yourself on the second page too by mentioning the fact that Naruto told Bee not to look at Itachi's eyes. I know Itachi has and always will be heavily overestimated in this section, but at least before people literally didn't just make things up.

As for the thread, Itachi loses all of these. He doesn't have a good enough way to put down Orochimaru and Tsunade before they land hits on him, and Jiraiya outstrips him in terms of jutsu in their base forms.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2014)

Genjutsu and a kunai puts down Oro, Tsunade, and Jiraiya as well before they can land hits on Itachi.

The Sannin have no hope of winning in their base forms against a faster opponent with Sharingan and Genjutsu of Itachi's level.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Genjutsu and a kunai puts down Oro, Tsunade, and Jiraiya as well before they can land hits on Itachi.
> 
> The Sannin have no hope of winning in their base forms against a faster opponent with Sharingan and Genjutsu of Itachi's level.



A Kunai puts down Tsunade ? And how does she get caught in Genjustu.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jun 17, 2014)

Tsunade loses more times then not,  I give her credit for fighting madara but she had back up,  madara wouldn't be dumb enough to engage Tsunade in cqc with 4 kages watching over her. I really don't see how tsunade is hitting itachi, he's quite the acrobat and dodged bee without even looking at him and has sharingon precognition to boot


jiraiya is a 50/50 with bushins restricted I don't see what itachi can do to escape the swamp. On the flipside jiraiya has horrible genjutsu defense depends who's quicker to there gun,  jiraiya never really opens with the swamp tho. 


Lastly I actually favor oro,  I don't think oro had regeneration the first time they squared off, and if this is Manga knowledge I doubt oro would fall for the same trick, I don't see what base itachi can do to put down oro, he has a high genjutsu stat as well so he wouldn't be fodderized, even if he was caught in one.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> How is avoiding direct eye contact disadvantageous to a fighter? I mean, Tsunade didn't seem too disadvantaged against Madara...



Actually, fighting without making eye contact or Itachi's finger is not something everybody can do. Gai trained to it and Kakashi expressed to be very difficult to do so. Sage Mode Kabuto had to cover his eyes.

The fact that she was never put in genjutsu might've been because Madara never bothered to do it, the clones were too tall to make eye contact, or both.

Because i don't believe that Tsunade is so much better than Gai and Kakashi that without training she can fight avoiding Sharingan genjutsu in an entire fight without being hindered like Kakashi was.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, fighting without making eye contact or Itachi's finger is not something everybody can do. Gai trained to it and Kakashi expressed to be very difficult to do so. Sage Mode Kabuto had to cover his eyes.
> 
> The fact that she was never put in genjutsu might've been because Madara never bothered to do it, the clones were too tall to make eye contact, or both.
> 
> Because i don't believe that Tsunade is so much better than Gai and Kakashi that without training she can fight avoiding Sharingan genjutsu in an entire fight without being hindered like Kakashi was.



Tsunade has enough self control to break her phobia of blood instantly in the middle of a battle. She also sports a 5 in intelligence. Do you honestly think she is going to get put into a Genjustu when all she has to do is avoid a finger or eyes ?


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 17, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, fighting without making eye contact or Itachi's finger is not something everybody can do. Gai trained to it and Kakashi expressed to be very difficult to do so. Sage Mode Kabuto had to cover his eyes.
> 
> The fact that she was never put in genjutsu might've been because Madara never bothered to do it, the clones were too tall to make eye contact, or both.
> 
> Because i don't believe that Tsunade is so much better than Gai and Kakashi that without training she can fight avoiding Sharingan genjutsu in an entire fight without being hindered like Kakashi was.



Not only this but when facing someone who can use Amaterasu, bring Susano up faster than lightning, and weave jutsu faster than the sharingan can see: I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure looking at someones face/upper body is a bit more than a luxury.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 17, 2014)

Tsunade is not avoiding Itachi's onslaught blind, which is the only way she can effectively not get genjutsu'd, which means she dies either way. Sage Kabuto could have just looked at his feet if he thought it was that easy. No he completely blinded himself and fought via sensing.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Jun 17, 2014)

I'd just like to point out, Tsunade with her Creation Rebirth via her Strength of a Hundred Seal is immune to Genjutsu. Seeing as genjutsu is the violation or rather a disruption of the target's regular and ordinary senses. Strength of a Hundred Technique and Creation Rebirth should render any genjutsu that enters her system ineffective immediately like like a flesh wound.

Not to mention she has such a powerful Chakra control, I'm sure she could break any non-MS Genjutsu she found herself in.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jun 17, 2014)

BurningVegeta said:


> I'd just like to point out, Tsunade with her Creation Rebirth via her Strength of a Hundred Seal is immune to Genjutsu. Seeing as genjutsu is the violation or rather a disruption of the target's regular and ordinary senses. Strength of a Hundred Technique and Creation Rebirth should render any genjutsu that enters her system ineffective immediately like like a flesh wound.
> 
> Not to mention she has such a powerful Chakra control, I'm sure she could break any non-MS Genjutsu she found herself in.



I concede to it dispelling the geniusu but I doubt it grants indefinite immunity.


Chakra control and genjutsu skill both plays factor,  I'm sure she can break it, but I doubt she can break it before itachi will capitalize


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Tsunade is not avoiding Itachi's onslaught blind, which is the only way she can effectively not get genjutsu'd, which means she dies either way. Sage Kabuto could have just looked at his feet if he thought it was that easy. No he completely blinded himself and fought via sensing.



That's nice ? Too bad Kabuto can actually afford to fight without his eyes considering he has advanced sensing abilities. You also forgot to add that he was fighting against two Uchiha. One who wielded the MS and the other who wielded the EMS. 

Saying that Tsunade is going to be caught by genjustu solely because Kabuto decided to take the upmost caution against 2 MS and above users is something I'm not even going to take into consideration.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 17, 2014)

Sorry, Rocky... Went to sleep and had class in the morning



Rocky said:


> Unorthodox?
> 
> Why would anyone _want_ to look at their opponents eyes during a fight in the first place?



Gai's fighting style is something that can't be learned easily, and you can see many things in someone's eyes...from their next move to deception. Sage Kabuto *still* shielded his eyes from a Sharingan, and he ended up resorting to senses altogether. Tsunade doesn't have such an ability and will fall to illusions sooner or later. 

To imply that Tsunade can avoid *every* type of genjutsu against Itachi is absurd, especially if the counteractive method she's relying on is foreign...
He's got many ways to cast genjutsu, but she doesn't have many ways to touch him. 

We don't even know if Tsunade would try to avoid genjutsu in the first place.

...and Itachi can still cast genjutsu with his finger, anyway. 
Shinobi HQ also stated that he can control people outside of sensor range, 



> We're talking about eye contact. Madara can cast ocular genjutsu, correct?



Was it shown that Madara tried to cast genjutsu on anyone (bar Ei)? 
It was never shown or implied. 



> She swats it away before it engulfs her, Samehada absorbed Itachi's Katon completely, and flaming shuriken can be evaded or tanked.



Samehada had trouble absorbing Itachi's Katon because of the temperature; it's a testament to its heat.



> Complete body?



Blind Madara was careless because of Hashirama's regeneration, and he doesn't even have the complete body like Hashi. 



> Listen, go find me a scan that suggests Hashirama is more *durable* than Tsunade.



Tsunade isn't more durable than a normal human. Swords can still pierce her body, evidenced when Susano'o accomplished that feat.

There's no reason why Tsunade would be any more or any less durable than her grandfather.

People like Ei/Raikagenaut are known for durability, while Hashirama/Tsunade are known for their regenerative abilities; there's a big difference in this case.



> There's a scan of Madara calling Hashirama's regeneration equal to or better than Tsunade's? Link?



I don't have any time to dig up scans, but Tsunade's Byakugou was compared to Hashirama's level of regeneration. It just proves that his regenerative abilities are greater than/equal to her own. If you're really interested, view Gokage vs. Madara for reference...



> Durability, maybe?
> 
> There is no reason to make an any assumptions. Mabui literally said "you'll be ripped to shreds if I use this on you." They weren't because they are durable.



Tsunade wasn't ripped to shreds, though, and her durability isn't comparable to the likes of Ei.
She can still lose limbs and get shredded to pieces.

Both parties came out of the technique without much damage, so the statement points at hyperbole. Tsunade isn't more durable than normal humans, and she came out of said technique with cuts and bruises. 



> Yes, considering she can regenerate whatever damage she receives from standard Kunai and basic firejutsu, and hitting ground can basically be accomplished at any time.
> 
> She doesn't have to pay any mind to Itachi's offense.



That's really stupid of her, then. Itachi's pinpoint accurancy with weaponry causes major problems. While she's *avoiding his eyes* (-.-) and punching the ground like a fool, he guides kunai through her skull. 



> You know, she can literally just smack her toe into the ground and create a _small fissure_, disrupting his footing and therefore nullifying his speed.
> 
> Presuming they're in melee range, since this _is_ a debate about CQC, she can then take advantage of said nullified speed and pink mist Itachi with a Susano'o busting hook.



I still don't see how that's going to help Tsuande at all. She's going to be destroying the ground that support her very feet, and Itachi still has Sharingan precognition to intercept said attack and use his better reflexes/speed to escape the given area. While she is having trouble in her own mess, Itachi just throws a slew of burning shuriken.



> Make progress towards what, exactly, because I'm sure as hell it isn't towards killing her.
> 
> Maybe towards tiring himself out with dat 2.5/5 stamina.



Tsunade isn't a durability monster; she's just immune to certain types of damage with her regen.



> Stopped here.
> 
> Hashirama's regeneration is not Tsunade's Byakugo.



Again... It's a no-limits fallacy. 
Come back to me when Tsunade can regrow limbs or repair vital organs while dead


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tsunade has enough self control to break her phobia of blood instantly in the middle of a battle. She also sports a 5 in intelligence. Do you honestly think she is going to get put into a Genjustu when all she has to do is avoid a finger or eyes ?



Kakashi has a 5 in inteligence, rivalling Shikamaru's IQ, experienced combat user and Sharingan user, experienced Kage bunshin user and he said that fighting avoiding eye contact was very difficult.

Kabuto is another one with a 5 in inteligence, a sensor user, experienced in trickery with snakes, and had to cover his eyes to avoid Itachi's genjutsu.

Gai is the best Taijutsu master, a speedester with striking speed so fast that even in base he was able to overwhelm Obito and forced him to phase in mid-air.

Those three are better than Tsunade at avoiding genjutsu, even if Kakashi doesn't have her taijutsu skills, his precog makes up for it. Kabuto's sensing makes up for it, and Gai is notably better than her, yet, he needed to train to avoid that.

Tsunade was at first, drinking always, and when she came back she was all the time sitting in her office aside from training Sakura. She never had to face a Sharingan user to be better than the three mentioned above at this. Nothing indicates she won't be caught or that she will fight at full power while she avoids Itachi's fingers and eyes.



Dr. White said:


> Not only this but when facing someone who can use Amaterasu, bring Susano up faster than lightning, and weave jutsu faster than the sharingan can see: I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure looking at someones face/upper body is a bit more than a luxury.



Actually, Itachi is somebody tricky for that. If you avoid eye contact, he fucks you with Amaterasu. If you look at his eyes trying to avoid Ama, he fucks you with genjutsu. You need to be a sensor to be completely safe from this. Or overwhelm him.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> They wouldn't be any less vulnerable.
> That was Kishi's way of showing the gap between Itachi and Sannin.
> 
> 
> ...



There's a massive difference between something being relevant in a battle and Oro staring Itachi dead in his eyes during the start of that battle.   The fact that you actually use this as a means to scale Itachi above the Sannin is pitiful. Tsunade and Jirayia both have more self control then Oro therefore Genjustu isn't as much of a problem as you equate it to be. As long as Tsunade or Jirayia doesn't look Itachi in his damn eyes or finger then they are fine. They can easily be less vulnerable then or or considering ORO LOOKED HIM DEAD IN HIS EYES TO START. Iruka Sensei could be more vulnerable then that. You have to smoking something if you think Tsuande or Jirayia are going to get low difficulty beaten by a Itachi stripped from his MS.

You seem to overrate Oros situation of being blitzed all the time lol. Oro had both his arms gone and he was coughing up blood. That's all, that is the EXTENT of his sickness. Don't make it worse then it was. Tsuande on the other hand was Rusty, in a floored position, and had her mid section destroyed. Do you remember what happened to her midsection. A diamond stinging sword did this to her many times: _small fissure_
_small fissure_
_small fissure_
That's her lungs , organs, spinal cord, and heart being severed multiple times. 

She was also in this position when she blitzed Oro who was standing up perfectly: _small fissure_

She also was so rusty that's she was at her limit after maybe 15 min of fighting in contrast to fighting Madara for hours without a problem: _small fissure_

Get that "Oro was in a worse condition" shit out of here.

It doesn't matter if Oro is a Ninjustu orientated ninja at all. He still would have been blitzed in that situation Justu or not. Im not saying or Oro with arms loses to Tsuande( I think he does personally) but regardless of such, he can't help the fact that Tsuande can blitz him in CQC. 

That doesn't matter at all, cause this is rusty Tsuande . She experienced pain like that probabaly an excess of 20 years ago. There is no way she has even close to the same pain tolerance. Having her mid section shredded is going to effect her ability whether you like it or not.

You seriously gonna see he'd fuck around with Tsunade ? Though she's his equal and he canonically fled the battle because she was going to kill him? No, he doesn't fuck around with his equal. That's bullshittt.

He never toyed around with a Sannin. I have no idea where you get that notion from.

True, Oro was at a disadvantage. But Tsuande was too; floored position, rusty, injured.  So current Tsuande is MUCH faster then that.

DB scores are unreliable( 4 Kisame reacting to 5+ V2 bee, 2.5 Shika dodging point blank attack from 4 Kakuzu while focusing Justu , 4.5 + Sharingan Enchanced Kakashi stalemating 3.5 Hidan, ETC) and they shouldn't be used in a disscussion. The speed stat also don't take into consideration, shunshin( Tsunade has a 5 Ninjutsu stat and taijustu skill).  That also was Tsuande before the war arc....so?

Itachi beat a Sannin that  looked directly into his eyes. Take that feat with a grain of salt tbh.

Just because they're equals doesn't mean they share the exact same weaknesses and strengths. Tsuande would fair better against the Sandaime as opposed to Oro, while Oro would fair better against Deidara. See what I'm saying ?

Itachi with MS is portrayed above the Sannin level and scan for the impossible dream.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> > There's a massive difference between something being relevant in a battle and Oro staring Itachi dead in his eyes during the start of that battle.
> 
> 
> Orochimaru knew about its capabilities so I don't understand how you are trying to take away from Itachi's feats which not only was a flashback (highlighting its importance) but also scared Orochimaru enough to leave Akatsuki and forever admit Itachi was better than him?
> ...


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Kakashi has a 5 in inteligence, rivalling Shikamaru's IQ, experienced combat user and Sharingan user, experienced Kage bunshin user and he said that fighting avoiding eye contact was very difficult.
> 
> Kabuto is another one with a 5 in inteligence, a sensor user, experienced in trickery with snakes, and had to cover his eyes to avoid Itachi's genjutsu.
> 
> ...



? Just because Kakashi states avoiding eye contact is difficult doesn't mean it's impossible. He also has a Sharingan, so he's used to looking into his opponents eyes.

? Kabuto has the luxury of using his sensory abilities to avoid Genjustu , why would he not ensure he doesn't get caught ? He so was fighting both an EMS and MS user. Base Itachi alone is much different.

? What the hell does Gai being a good taijustu user and having a fast punch have anything to do with his self control? Tsuande has more self control then Gai.

None of those three except Kabuto are better at avoiding Genjustu. Avoiding Genjustu is just a matter of having he self control to not look at ones eyes.

Why does this matter ? Why use predated Tsuande actions to justify her skill now. It doesn't matter if she was a gambler and an alcoholic. She not only broke that habit instantly , but she managed to break a blood phobia instantly which is a top tier self control feat and you seem to be undermining it.  She doesn't need to have directly faced a Sharingan user( depsite Madara lol) to have the knowledge and self control to merely avoid Genjustu.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 17, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Likes boss said:
> 
> 
> > Orochimaru knew about its capabilities so I don't understand how you are trying to take away from Itachi's feats which not only was a flashback (highlighting its importance) but also scared Orochimaru enough to leave Akatsuki and forever admit Itachi was better than him?
> ...


----------



## Turrin (Jun 17, 2014)

Oddly enough the only one I see him having a chance to beat is Jiriaya, due to the restrictions of summoning.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What's your point? It doesn't matter if Oro had prior knowledge if he independently chose to look Itachi dead in the eyes. Saying that because Itachi managed to one panel Oro means he can one panel any Sannin member is ridiculous ABC logic considering not every Sannin is prideful enough to do so.


You are trying to claim things off of false grounds though. It is custom for people to look into someone's face, all Itachi needs is a literal glance at you or a finger wag. It isn't all about pride.



> So all this " Itachi instantly genjustus " Tsuande and Jirayia because he did so to oro is bullshit. I'm not having it in this thread. I don't remember ever saying Genjustu was useless rather saying that none of these matches are going to end up like Oro vs Itachis first encounter, and that Genjustu can easily be countered by simply looking at your opponents chest rather then IMMEDIATELY looking them in their eye balls despite having prior knowledge.


-snip- I didn't claim he would instantly win here, even though it is very possible. People giving the Oro panel are showing that:
A.) Even orochimaru a sannin well versed in all types of jutsu including genjutsu, was taken down completely by Itachi's 3 tomoe sharginan. 
B.) It was done almost effortlessely by a much younger itachi, you cannot deny the portrayal side of this.

-If they look at his chest he literally just moves his finger in their LOS.

Or simply engages them close up and does what he did to Kakashi's shadow clone. Unless you are gonna argue he can't despite that he could move faster than Bee could see.



> Oros mistake doesn't reflect the entire Sannin team, and doesn't reflect his actions the next time he fights Itachi. I wonder why Itachi didn't just simply fodder level Genjustu rape Oro the second time they fought ?


The second time they fought Itachi was on his last leg,, in Susano on the ground yards away from Itachi who was elevated on his best summon. Kinda different scenarios....



> That's EXACTLY my point. Oro was prideful enough to think he could beat Itachi( of all people) at Genjustu and got trashed. No other Sannin is dumb enough to pull shit like that. They may get caught by Genjustu , but it isn't going to be simple at all.


"dumb enough" are you serious? I'm not even gonna comment on this. 



> I never said Itachi can't force Genjustu, or Itachi is just going to stand calmly in an open field and cast Genjustu randomly expecting it to land. King Itachi merely mirrored Oros first encounter with Itachi to what any Sannin could so possible. Meaning they all basically get soloed easily. Which is ridiculously wrong.


He can make that argument though unless they are given full knowledge here. In which I doubt it would happen like it did vs Oro. As I said I'm sure he is just saying Itachi wins via genjutsu with low diff. Honestly even if they have knowledge Itachi could just send a flock of crows and genjutsu them while they are fending that off not knowing one fo them has shisui's eye.



> What is base Itachi superior to Jirayia and Tsuande at ?


-Speed
-Reactions
-Kenjutsu
-Ninjutsu weaving speed
-Genjutsu
-Intelligence
-Insight
-Projectiles




> If me and you were in a fight and I was one of the smartest individuals in the country, I was the leader of a country, and I had the self control to break my self from a 15+ year phobia mid-battle, then I could comfortably avoid your finger or your eyes.


What? That completely dodges my question. And I don't understand your analogy.



> I do admit that finger Genjustu is a bit broken and would be hard for even Tsuande to avoid. However it cold probably be broken nearly instantly, and Itachi isn't finger genjustu'ing a Sannin are close range.


Why probably? Explain?





> Not if Oro commited some ridiculous action like looking directly into Sasukes eyes after knowing that he was a Genjustu master. That's like tossing yourself into Tsuandes fist and calling that an ah shit moment. It's stupid. Itachi didn't force Genjustu at all. All he did was look at oro and he was done. Sakura and Chiyo could even avoid being one paneled like that.


Sasuke was not a genjutsu master. Oro obviously once again thought Sauce wasn't that good and ended up losing. Also it kinda was his only option considering Sasuke was trying to kill him.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> • Just because Kakashi states avoiding eye contact is difficult doesn't mean it's impossible. He also has a Sharingan, so he's used to looking into his opponents eyes.



It's didfficult enought that the only way he could fight Itachi was tricking him with clones.



> • Kabuto has the luxury of using his sensory abilities to avoid Genjustu , why would he not ensure he doesn't get caught ? He so was fighting both an EMS and MS user. Base Itachi alone is much different.



If it were that easy like not only looking at the other's eyes the Uchihas would not be very feared. You are clinging to something that never happened to assume Tsunade is an expert at avoiding Sharingan genjutsu.  Actually, this has less base than the example of Gai busting V3 Susano'o you despise so much, because it's only based on an assumption and nothing more.

_She was never put in genjutsu? Madara tried and failed just because he had to grab Ei to put him into._

We have to take a lot of things in consideration to believe that. because not only Ei was being almost untouchable for the Susano'os, but every slash they threw at him was blocked and couldn't bypass his Raiton armor while Tsunade was being stabbed and collapsing. You can see a very good difference here on why would the Susano'os try to put Ei in genjutsu and not Tsunade.

And even then, this by no means proves that they were trying to put the others either, as like i said, it has been implied several times before how hard this is, and how dangerous are Uchihas for this to assume Tsunade sitting at her office can accomplish what others accomplished via training.

_Note: When i say something like her doing nothing for years, i don't say it to bash her, just to put more clear how unlikely her managing to master Gai's method in one day is._

Seriously, Madara not putting her in genjutsu by no means is equal to him trying and failing. Because Madara is stronger enough that her to put her by force if he wants to.



> • What the hell does Gai being a good taijustu user and having a fast punch have anything to do with his self control? Tsuande has more self control then Gai.



A Taijutsu user that can fight looking at the other's feats and put seasoned Sharingan users to the defensive, _yet_ he had to train for that.



> None of those three except Kabuto are better at avoiding Genjustu. Avoiding Genjustu is just a matter of having he self control to not look at ones eyes.



No, just no. Tsunade is in no way better than the guys who directly fought Uchihas. She is no better than the only man in earth that could accomplish a method via training to avoid Sharingan genjutsu. Gai, Kakashi and Kabuto are much better than her fighting even by the sole reason that she has no feats at all to suggest she can even fight Itachi without getting caught.



> Why does this matter ? Why use predated Tsuande actions to justify her skill now. It doesn't matter if she was a gambler and an alcoholic. She not only broke that habit instantly , but she managed to break a blood phobia instantly which is a top tier self control feat and you seem to be undermining it.  She doesn't need to have directly faced a Sharingan user( depsite Madara lol) to have the knowledge and self control to merely avoid Genjustu.



I am not 'undermining' it. I am using common sense. How is a girl way better at fighting Uchihas and avoiding Sharingan genjutsu, when she never fought one in her entire life? How are Mei, Gaara and Tsunade better than Gai at fighting avoiding eye contact when the guy had to _train_ a good deal for that?

Gai is skilled enough to not look into the eyes of somebody. And not looking at the eyes of an Uchiha is a common thing known by everybody, yet, Uchihas always were one of the main forces and by Chiyo's admission, you needed a partner to break you out of genjutsu and other kind of help.

Tsunade can fight looking at Itachi's feets all the time. But let's be honest here, she is not going to accomplish in her very first time what Gai accomplished via training and what the same Kakashi failed to do.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 18, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> You are trying to claim things off of false grounds though. It is custom for people to look into someone's face, all Itachi needs is a literal glance at you or a finger wag. It isn't all about pride.
> 
> 
> No this section of your post is bullshit. I didn't claim he would instantly win here, even though it is very possible. People giving the Oro panel are showing that:
> ...



What the hell bro? It's not custom for someone to look into someone's face WHEN THEY HAVE PRIOR knowledge that said person can cast illusions home their eye.  It's mostly about pride. You you seem to underrate the shit out of a ninja if you think it's hard to not look at someone's face or finger, wen said ninja already has a self control feat that shits on such. 

-snip-

A) Oro was only taken down because he was prideful enough to challenge enough Itachis Genjustu or Oro is stupid. Itachi didn't force Genjustu at all, oro walked into it himself

B) effortlessly ? How much effort can be our into Genjustu ? Portrayal side of things? Kisame and Itachi = Jirayia. Id like to toss that portrayal shit out the window this moment. 

Do you not understand that Itachis finger isn't constantly casting Genjustu ? You seen to think that one sight of his finger at any time ='s game over.

What does his Kunai do to Tsuande ? Lol it doesn't even break her skin. And please do provide the feat where Nagato creates a diversion to allows Itachi to shunshin in and not have the hand speed to hit bee lol. 

If you think it's so simple, then if Itachi goes CQC, and Tsuande does this: _that_ ?

Ehh. I'm not gonna argue against that. He did need to seal or or after all.

Yes I'm completely serious ?. You act as if  what I said was illogical ? Yes . Oro did some some dumb shit. You know this.


They don't need full knowledge when all the Sannin members have knowledge on Itachis Genjustu . So what's your point ?

The Sannin have ways around a freaking flock of crows lol. You think he wins like that ? Lol that's funny.

Ehh I guess ? But the Sannin also have abilities that trump Itachi by a landslide. Itachi may be better at more stuff but he is slightly better in those regards. Tsuandes strentgh, durabilty, stamina, regeneration, and taijustu skill are tiers above Itachi.


Your question is ridiculous because the average person doesn't have much self control and Tsuande isn't just an average Shinobi. And that's cool. Read again.

Because finger Genjusu is low ranked Genjustu and can be broken easily.

When did Sasuke beat Oro ?


----------



## Rocky (Jun 18, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, fighting without making eye contact or Itachi's finger is not something everybody can do. Gai trained to it and Kakashi expressed to be very difficult to do so. Sage Mode Kabuto had to cover his eyes.



There is literally no reason to look at the opponent's eyes during a match. None. I don't know where the belief that making direct eye contact is required during a fight came from.

Now, that's not to say that Itachi can't _force_ somebody to stare into his eyes; he even did so against Kakashi. Hell, that's probably why Kabuto bothered to close his eyes. Base Itachi has no way to do this to Tsunade, though.



> The fact that she was never put in genjutsu might've been because Madara never bothered to do it, the clones were too tall to make eye contact, or both.



Since most of the fight against Madara was off panel, I'm not sure how you're reaching that conclusion.


----------



## Shinryu (Jun 18, 2014)

> Now, that's not to say that Itachi can't force somebody to stare into his eyes; he even did so against Kakashi. Hell, that's probably why Kabuto bothered to close his eyes. Base Itachi has no way to do this to Tsunade, though.



I dont think you understand all it takes is literally one eye contact with Itachi and she is Tsukoyomi coma land.He doesnt have to force her to look because all he has to do is look in her eyes.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jun 18, 2014)

I think it's time some of us calm down a little in this debate.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There is literally no reason to look at the opponent's eyes during a match. None. I don't know where the belief that making direct eye contact is required during a fight came from.
> 
> Now, that's not to say that Itachi can't _force_ somebody to stare into his eyes; he even did so against Kakashi. Hell, that's probably why Kabuto bothered to close his eyes. Base Itachi has no way to do this to Tsunade, though.
> 
> ...



And this is the main problem. We would be throwing away Uchiha's dangerous genjutsu hype by Chiyo and Gai's difficult training to avoid genjutsu hanging out of an off panel fight against a man that could've put her in genjutsu by force if he wanted to.

I seriously see a huge problem there when Itachi and even Sasuke have put Kage level opponents in genjutsu without even knowing. Yet, Tsunade, who barely fights, replicates Gai's feat.

Maybe it's just me, but i don't see it, especially because nothing says she can avoid it other than an off panel fight, wich is equal to assumption.

The fact that Gai had to train to avoid genjutsu from a man with a single Sharingan, and him being notable better than Tsunade in taijutsu tells me that it's very easy to fall on them. Much more when Itachi can use genjutsu even with his feets.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 18, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> And this is the main problem. We would be throwing away Uchiha's dangerous genjutsu hype by Chiyo and Gai's difficult training to avoid genjutsu hanging out of an off panel fight against a man that could've put her in genjutsu by force if he wanted to.



It's funny how the "Uchiha genjutsu hype" was nowhere to be seen in the last hundred chapters even though the bad guys were all Elite Uchiha.

Yes, Madara could have forced her into genjutsu, but Base Itachi cannot _force_ her into anything. 



> I seriously see a huge problem there when Itachi and even Sasuke have put Kage level opponents in genjutsu without even knowing. Yet, Tsunade, who barely fights, replicates Gai's feat.



The people that have fallen for ocular genjutsu were either unaware of it, unconcerned about it, or forced into it. 

Tsunade is aware of it, has reason to be concerned about it, and cannot be forced into it. 

Itachi may be able to _trick_ her into it, but eh.



> The fact that Gai had to train to avoid genjutsu from a man with a single Sharingan, and him being notable better than Tsunade in taijutsu tells me that it's very easy to fall on them. Much more when Itachi can use genjutsu even with his feets.



Gai's training is excessive, really. There is no reason to stare at a person's feet if your goal is to avoid eye contact. 

Just don't look at their eyes, there is literally no advantage to be gained from doing so.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jun 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's funny how the "Uchiha genjutsu hype" was nowhere to be seen in the last hundred chapters even though the bad guys were all Elite Uchiha.
> 
> Yes, Madara could have forced her into genjutsu, but Base Itachi cannot _force_ her into anything.



Madara doesn't fight using primarily genjutsu, but when he charged at the alliance they where instructed not to look him in the eyes.

 madara also captured A with susano and forced him into a genjutsu and that base genjutsu immediately downed A.


you also have to look at it from a power stand point, madara base ninjutsu alone was op look at his fireball jutsu for example, so he wouldn't have to really rely on genjutsu to put someone down


 itachi's base arsenal however isn't powerful at all, so he has to rely on those illusions to open up his opponents to cause any significant damage.


 Itachi also has received hype by shukaku so i wouldn't say uchiha hasn't been receiving any genjutsu hype. 

Obito was never known to be a genjutsu specialist and even had a draw with kakashi during there genjutsu clash.

I would also call infinite tsukiyomi genjutsu hype as it trolled the whole ninja world and it took a "uchiha" to save naruto, kakashi, and sakura.


Rocky said:


> The people that have fallen for ocular genjutsu were either unaware of it, unconcerned about it, or forced into it.



agreed, but you left they are tricked into it as well.



Rocky said:


> Tsunade is aware of it, has reason to be concerned about it, and cannot be forced into it.
> 
> Itachi may be able to _trick_ her into it, but eh.



She can be tricked and its a very strong possibility due to itachi's fighting style, he's a very tricky bushin user, and feinted 2 sharingon users, with her being unable to look at his upper body i wouldn't rule out the possibility of her being tricked.


Bee was caught in a  genjutsu despite the fact that he had knowledge and bee also has alot more taijutsu skill then tsunade.

sasuke beat danzo with a genjutsu and danzo has a sharingon to boot.



Rocky said:


> Gai's training is excessive, really. There is no reason to stare at a person's feet if your goal is to avoid eye contact.



gai stares at the feet to anticipate the movement of the opponent.



Rocky said:


> Just don't look at their eyes, there is literally no advantage to be gained from doing so.




to avoid eye contact they at the very least would have to stare at there mid section and doing that they won't see when and opponent is making hand sighns, or which way the opponent went, when they side step or dodge.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 18, 2014)

When did Rocky start downplaying Itachi so hard?

Do you need to talk Rocky?


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What the hell bro? It's not custom for someone to look into someone's face WHEN THEY HAVE PRIOR knowledge that said person can cast illusions home their eye.  It's mostly about pride. You you seem to underrate the shit out of a ninja if you think it's hard to not look at someone's face or finger, wen said ninja already has a self control feat that shits on such.


-Like Kurenai, Asuma, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya (who is making no effort to avoid eye contact despite knowing Itachi is an uchiha and just genjutsu'd that prostitute. ), did?




> A) Oro was only taken down because he was prideful enough to challenge enough Itachis Genjustu or Oro is stupid. Itachi didn't force Genjustu at all, oro walked into it himself


It happens to the best of them. If he didn't need to do it he didn't have to. The problem for you is Itachi is >>> Base Jiraiaya in speed and handweaving. He can cast more genjutsu and follow it up better, also because eof his better reactions.  Tsunade is different because getting close to her is a nightmare but considering she lacks knowledge on his crow genjutsu and Finger genjutsu Itachi should take with ease. Honestly there is jackshit any of them can do against Itachi casting a fireball jutsu and flanking them like this and forcing eye contact, or sending his crow, or a clone to do it. 



> B) effortlessly ? How much effort can be our into Genjustu ? Portrayal side of things? Kisame and Itachi = Jirayia. Id like to toss that portrayal shit out the window this moment.


No, you are just not comphrehending the story as a whole and looking at things very singularly. When that panel was first released yes it was justified to believe that, because they were both top tiers at that point (Sannin was pretty much the best repped club until akatsuki crept in.). If Naruto stopped at that chapter I could except your point. But no Itachi was clearly throwing his mission against Konoha because all he wanted to do was:
-Keep Konoha/Sasuke safe (visiting would also make Danzo remember his deal)
-Keep his role as a double agent clean. Tobi put Kisame (his most loyal member) with Itachi  and the first thing he told Itachi was he'd be keeping an eye on him. From canon and databook we already know Itachi was not trying to hark Konoha. He just had to make it seem as if he was trying, but Jiraiya mad the perfect excuse for Itachi because of his hype, and the fact that Jiraiaya's jutsu had Kisame shitting bricks a couple seconds before hand. (which Itachi handled easily).

Long story short for you to make that argument is pitiful and it directly goes against manga. Itachi did not want to harm citizens or Jiraiaya, and certainly didn't wanna hand over Naruto to Pein. (that wouldn't be keeping Konoha or sasuke safe.) Jiraiaya's hype and demonstration (/Itachi's use of MS, even though he used way more 2 years later into his sickness:find that funny?) allowed him to make a believeable case to flee. Itachi didn't even participate in catching the other bjuu because Itachi didn't like fighting or violence.



> Do you not understand that Itachis finger isn't constantly casting Genjustu ? You seen to think that one sight of his finger at any time ='s game over.


That's the point, who the hell would think someone with a sharingan would be able to cast a finger genjutsu. It's a low chakra move that soloed pt. 2 Naruto. I'd say it's pretty damn good considering he even had a predetermined method of dealing with it, he just so happened to be taught by Jiraiaya. Itachi commented it was a good improvement but that he is no where near his level implying even with Naruto trying his best his low level finger genjutsu would have soloed him. 



> What does his Kunai do to Tsuande ? Lol it doesn't even break her skin. And please do provide the feat where Nagato creates a diversion to allows Itachi to shunshin in and not have the hand speed to hit bee lol.


She is still going to dodge them. A kunai to the head would be dangerous and Itachi was strong enough to easily lop of Oro's hand and clash with SM Kabuto with a sword. Not saying it's a matchbreaker but they are great for distractions and set up which Itachi is deadly with.



> If you think it's so simple, then if Itachi goes CQC, and Tsuande does this:  making no effort to avoid eye contact  ?


Itachi will be watching her in slow mo, and since there is a speed gap favoring Itachi he doesn't have to worry about Lee syndrome (vs post wave Sasuke). She either gets genjutsu'd, cut with fire weapons, or clone feinted. Also if she hits the wrong clone it can literally blow up in her face, giving Itachi more than enough leeway to cast a genjutsu or land a deadly hit.



> Yes I'm completely serious ?. You act as if  what I said was illogical ? Yes . Oro did some some dumb shit. You know this.


Like Jiraiya did multiple times? 1 , 2, 3, 4 , don't make me get scans of Tsunade doing it with Madara 

The fact is this: an Uchiha, especially a skilled one, can at any time trap you via eye contact. All it takes is a glance, and we canonically see people fall under the spell, we have even seen sasuke do it before he gets hit by a small townbuster. Some uchiha choosing not to do it doesn't mean jack. Sasuke used it vs Sai but didn't use it vs Naruto, Yamato, and Sakura (not counting supressing the kyuubi). Madara randomly did it vs Ei, but no one else. The fact is not every uchiha or sharingan wielder uses genjutsu alot or primarily, as is with Itachi. Kakashi didn't, Sasuke didn't until he fought Itachi (a couple more instances here and there but none in pt. 1.). My point is that Itachi's mean style of fighting is genjutsu and that it is very hard to counter this.




> They don't need full knowledge when all the Sannin members have knowledge on Itachis Genjustu . So what's your point ?


Naruto had knowledge and got caught, Oro did twice,  kurenai did it. For example kakashi had every right to believe he could counter genjutsu with his sharingan, but he just couldn't handle MS and isn't on itachi's level in that area, that doesn't make him a prideful person. It means he did what he could with what he had. It is extremely hard to fight while blind, and not looking at his eyes doesn't solve the problem. None have any knowledge on his finger genjutsu therefore have to reason not to look at it.



> The Sannin have ways around a freaking flock of crows lol. You think he wins like that ? Lol that's funny.


Itachi can activate them from many angles, while he was running from sasuke he summoned them obscurely and they were able to blitz EMS Sasuke with arm susano.* Shisui's crow can easily make eye contact from short range and genjutsu them* especially with no knowledge lol. Cause everybody's first instinct when seeing crows flying towards them is to not look at where they are aiming to crowd you right? Everything Naruto tried to do to stop Itachi failed, every method. Even while being a perfect jin, his base genjutsu can trap him momnetarily and Tsukyomi can solo him. Itachi's main claim to power is through his skill in every area being high tier, and his top tier Genjutsu (Totsuka, Tsukuyomi, Izanami, Ukataka, Crow genjutsu, etc) intelligence and ninjutsu.



> Ehh I guess ? But the Sannin also have abilities that trump Itachi by a landslide. Itachi may be better at more stuff but he is slightly better in those regards. Tsuandes strentgh, durabilty, stamina, regeneration, and taijustu skill are tiers above Itachi.


Problem is when you are facing someone like Itachi the probablilty that the fight will last exceedingly long is slim. He always find the quickest way based on his opponents actions to counter them. He isn't going to dick around. He knows what he has todo here and knows enough about the Sanin to comfortably solo them in base.


Your question is ridiculous because the average person doesn't have much self control and Tsuande isn't just an average Shinobi. And that's cool. Read again.



> Because finger Genjusu is low ranked Genjustu and can be broken easily.


Which is why Naruto easily broke it? he had the Kyuubi inside him a new/independant source to pull from using the Jiraiaya method, and still failed. You are just making stuff up now. It's low chakra cost, but necessarily low level.



> When did Sasuke beat Oro ?


When Orochimaru was sick in bed, and Sasuke charged in and chidori lanced him. It was quite a turning point in the manga.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 18, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Itachi's base arsenal however isn't powerful at all, so he has to rely on those illusions to open up his opponents to cause any significant damage.



Whether or not he relies on it is irrelevant. Sharingan genjutsu seems to be a free victory should it land, so they'd be idiots to reject the freebie if their opponents look them in the eye.

Honestly, Raikage was like _embarrassed_ to be caught in Madara's illusion. Tell me, why is that? Did Raikage train like Gai and have this uber genjutsu defense? 



> She can be tricked and its a very strong possibility due to itachi's fighting style, he's a very tricky bushin user, and feinted 2 sharingon users, with her being unable to look at his upper body i wouldn't rule out the possibility of her being tricked.



Clonejutsu of any kind is restricted.



> Bee was caught in a  genjutsu despite the fact that he had knowledge and bee also has alot more taijutsu skill then tsunade.
> 
> sasuke beat danzo with a genjutsu and danzo has a sharingon to boot.



B wasn't really concerned with genjutsu because he believes it _doesn't work_ on him.

Danzo likewise was not concerned with Sasuke's illusions, most likely because Sasuke's first one failed miserably. 



> to avoid eye contact they at the very least would have to stare at there mid section and doing that they won't see when and opponent is making hand sighns, or which way the opponent went, when they side step or dodge.



How would Tsunade track Itachi's handseals, or movement in general by starring into his _eyes_? That doesn't make any sense. 



Dr. White said:


> When did Rocky start downplaying Itachi so hard?
> 
> Do you need to talk Rocky?



You think _this_ is Itachi hate?


----------



## SSMG (Jun 18, 2014)

Itachi would be a good match for sm jiraiya.. he honestly doeant stand a chance with two.more kage level opponents thrown into the mix.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Whether or not he relies on it is irrelevant. Sharingan genjutsu seems to be a free victory should it land, so they'd be idiots to reject the freebie if their opponents look them in the eye.


Bruh. If Itachi has canonically used genjutsu in pretty much all of his fights barring him disgracing 3 Uchiha Men, it is fair to assume it is his main means of fighting. You know Uchiha are prideful and wanna do shit their way. You also aren't taking into account Itachi is god tier in genjutsu, and he eats 5's for breakfast. His worse performances are tying with Hebi Sasuke (in a fight he planned to die in and test Sasuke in/Push oro out.) and having his genjutsu broken by a perfect Jin after a few panels. 



> Honestly, Raikage was like _embarrassed_ to be caught in Madara's illusion. Tell me, why is that? Did Raikage train like Gai and have this uber genjutsu defense?


He is super prideful lol. That is really all there is to it. He said the same shit to Sasuke before sasuke layed down his mans Shi (who was the one he needed to put down at the time.). Bee was caught by MS and Base genjutsu momentarily (Itachi's being longer), and he is a perfect Jin yet somehow Raikage is > his bro? If you catch Ei long enough to make eye contact and cast the genjutsu you can genjutsu him, point blank.




> B wasn't really concerned with genjutsu because he believes it _doesn't work_ on him.


doesn't change the fact that it took several panels for his internal Bjuu to save him from the illusion. He even grabbed at what he thought was Itachi.  



> Danzo likewise was not concerned with Sasuke's illusions, most likely because Sasuke's first one failed miserably.


What are Jiraiaya and Tsunade's excuses? Even though Madara never targeted Tsunade she made eye contact multiple times. But it is canon that Madara was just toying with the kages; hence the reason he made it 5 on 1 with them for ironic pleasure.





> How would Tsunade track Itachi's handseals, or movement in general by starring into his _eyes_? That doesn't make any sense.


Not staring in someone range of eye contact is actually very hard. Asuma and Kurenai didn't even think to just look away them immediately batted their heads. Their is a reason Guy looks at Kakashi's feat when they fight, also kakashi isn't a primary genjutsu user so the technique wouldn't be nearly as effective.





> You think _this_ is Itachi hate?


Downplay =/ hate  just bias


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jun 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Whether or not he relies on it is irrelevant. Sharingan genjutsu seems to be a free victory should it land, so they'd be idiots to reject the freebie if their opponents look them in the eye.



Regular sharingon Genjutsu can be broken out of with a partner, and whenever madara fought it was usually against multiple shinobi.

Even so he did opt to use it against A when he got a chance to single him out.

Obito never showed the ability to down someone in combat with a sharingon genjutsu, only sasuke, itachi and madara showed this.



Rocky said:


> Honestly, Raikage was like _embarrassed_ to be caught in Madara's illusion. Tell me, why is that? Did Raikage train like Gai and have this uber genjutsu defense?



In the correct translation he says "Dammit I of all ppl have been placed in a sharingon genjutsu" it just means with A's speed he probably never gets caught in sharingon genjutsu which makes sense because he taunted sasuke to use it and madara had to first grab him with susano.


nothing really indicating its weak or anything.



Rocky said:


> Clonejutsu of any kind is restricted.


Sorry mixed it up with all the itachi threads going on in BD



Rocky said:


> B wasn't really concerned with genjutsu because he believes it _doesn't work_ on him.



I could agree with that.



Rocky said:


> Danzo likewise was not concerned with Sasuke's illusions, most likely because Sasuke's first one failed miserably.



I could also agree with this. 

Itachi did also catch naruto out in the forest when he implanted the crow in him despite naruto having knowledge

deidara was caught by sasuke despite having knowledge

oro lost to sasuke the same way despite having knowledge




Rocky said:


> How would Tsunade track Itachi's handseals, or movement in general by starring into his _eyes_? That doesn't make any sense.



Because its all in the same radius, itachi chest, upper shoulders, neck, face and eyes are all in the same area, when they make hand signs its also usually done in this same radius if it was as simple as just not focusing on the eyes, gai wouldn't had went to the extreme lengths he did, focusing on itachi's neck or chest could result in itachi bending his head over and making eye contact.


----------



## Akitō (Jun 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gai's training is excessive, really. There is no reason to stare at a person's feet if your goal is to avoid eye contact.
> 
> Just don't look at their eyes, there is literally no advantage to be gained from doing so.



Eh, this is a poor argument. The author made it abundantly clear through Gai that staring at Itachi's feet was the only surefire way for ordinary shinobi to not get caught in his genjutsu. He wouldn't have emphasized the struggles Asuma and Kurenai would have in facing Itachi if they could easily just stare anywhere below his eyes to neutralize his genjutsu. It might not sense from a practical standpoint, but I think it's best to follow the author's word on this one.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 18, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Eh, this is a poor argument. The author made it abundantly clear through Gai that staring at Itachi's feet was the only surefire way for ordinary shinobi to not get caught in his genjutsu. He wouldn't have emphasized the struggles Asuma and Kurenai would have in facing Itachi if they could easily just stare anywhere below his eyes to neutralize his genjutsu. It might not sense from a practical standpoint, but I think it's best to follow the author's word on this one.



Then the author has changed his mind, because I'm fairly certain that Raikage, Kakuzu, Tsunade, Onoki, Hidan, Gaara, Mei, Minato, and everybody else that's gone up against a Sharingan has not trained like Gai has. It's _ridiculous_ to suggest that some sort of special training is needed to avoid being paneled by the 3 Tome Sharingan. 

Gai's method isn't even "surefire." Kakashi adopted it in his rematch with Itachi and was _still_ forced into genjutsu.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 18, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Eh, this is a poor argument. The author made it abundantly clear through Gai that staring at Itachi's feet was the only surefire way for ordinary shinobi to not get caught in his genjutsu.


This is incorrect. Kishi made it clear that one can avoid Itachi's Genjutsu by avoiding eye-contact. Gai's method of reading ones movements based on their feet is merely one method to fight the enemy competitively while avoiding eye-contact. There are plenty of other methods we've been exposed to since then that also work, this is simply Gai's answer as someone who specializes in physical combat and is not very proficient with other Ninja Techniques.



> He wouldn't have emphasized the struggles Asuma and Kurenai would have in facing Itachi if they could easily just stare anywhere below his eyes to neutralize his genjutsu.


They could indeed do that, it's just that they would need to adopt some means of tracking Itachi's movements or utilize Gai's method. Baring in mind Gai's method really isn't suppose to be seen as that difficult to master. Gai expected Asuma and Kurunai to be able to learn this method in the heat of battle and while Asuma commented that Gai is the only one he knows who can do that, he accepted Gai's words that they could adjust to it as they went along. 

As Rocky notes all of the Gokage were able to avoid Genjutsu, despite being up against 5 Madara-clones, while at the same time dealing with Susano'o. Ei being the only exception, but he was distracted in that instance and eye-contact was forced. However the Gokage accomplished that "feat" it is clearly not something that difficult for upper level ninja to cope with.


----------



## Akitō (Jun 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's _ridiculous_ to suggest that some sort of special training is needed to avoid being paneled by the 3 Tome Sharingan.
> 
> Gai's method isn't even "surefire." Kakashi adopted it in his rematch with Itachi and was _still_ forced into genjutsu.



Now that I reread the fight, Kakashi only told Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes when Itachi activated the Mangekyō Sharingan, so it might be that ordinary Sharingan genjutsu isn't enough of a threat to warrant Gai's strategy of staring at the enemy's feet. But that makes me wonder why Gai decided to learn it in the first place when Kakashi didn't have the Mangekyō. 

Also, it could be that looking at a Sharingan user's eyes just opens up the possibility of you getting caught in the genjutsu. It doesn't guarantee it because fights move extremely quickly and are always hectic. I wouldn't expect a Sharingan user to instantly catch someone in a genjutsu every time the opportunity arises. That'd explain why none of those characters you named were caught in genjutsu despite not using Gai's strategy, yet we've seen: a.) other characters clearly wary of the possibility of genjutsu and b.) other characters get caught. 

And obviously the more fluent at using genjutsu the Sharingan user is, the better they can do it mid-fight. Itachi seems to be one of the best there is at doing this considering he's managed to incorporate it into every one of his fights other than his fight with Kabuto, who specifically made it a point to counter this part of Itachi's arsenal. That too might be why the characters you mentioned weren't caught.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 19, 2014)

-Claiming 3 tomoe aint nothing to fuck with despite:
-Kage level ninja geting soloed by it
-Universal rules about facing sharingan user which specifically state to turn tail if 1 on 1.
-Feats of taking over Kyuubi, and other boss summons

But Nah you guys aren't bias or anything


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 19, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Now that I reread the fight, Kakashi only told Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes when Itachi activated the Mangekyō Sharingan, so it might be that ordinary Sharingan genjutsu isn't enough of a threat to warrant Gai's strategy of staring at the enemy's feet. But that makes me wonder why Gai decided to learn it in the first place when Kakashi didn't have the Mangekyō.



Don't concede things that aren't true. Kakashi didn't even know what MS was or that there was a difference between MS and regular sharingan hence whyhe though he was fine with 3 tomoe. 

Gai's strategy isn't effective vs someone who is a primary genjutsu user.

The Sannin simply can't keep up.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 19, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Also, it could be that looking at a Sharingan user's eyes just opens up the possibility of you getting caught in the genjutsu. It doesn't guarantee it because fights move extremely quickly and are always hectic. I wouldn't expect a Sharingan user to instantly catch someone in a genjutsu every time the opportunity arises. That'd explain why none of those characters you named were caught in genjutsu despite not using Gai's strategy, yet we've seen: a.) other characters clearly wary of the possibility of genjutsu and b.) other characters get caught.



I know this, and I might agree if the Madara v Gokage fight hadn't lasted an entire day. Hashirama also went against Madara for about that long without being wtfpwned by an illusion. I could get behind the "hectic fight" thing when discussing something like Obito vs. Minato 16 years ago, but day long bouts?  

I'm also aware that characters have been caught before, but as I said to another poster, the only characters that have been ensnared by ocular genjutsu were:

A. Unaware of it. [1][2]

B. Unconcerned. [1][2][3]

C. Forced into it. [1][2]

D. Caught off guard. [1][2]

Tsunade is aware _and_ concerned, and Base Itachi has no means of forcing her into one. A clone feint may have caught her off guard, but it's restricted.



> And obviously the more fluent at using genjutsu the Sharingan user is, the better they can do it mid-fight. Itachi seems to be one of the best there is at doing this considering he's managed to incorporate it into every one of his fights other than his fight with Kabuto, who specifically made it a point to counter this part of Itachi's arsenal. That too might be why the characters you mentioned weren't caught.



Itachi is probably the most proficient illusion caster in the manga, but lets not kid ourselves. Madara, Sasuke, and Obito are the strongest Uchiha to ever exist and excel in _all_ areas of their Sharingan. All four (including Itachi) are perfectly fluent in casting genjutsu during a fight.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 19, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Like Kurenai, Asuma, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya (who is making no effort to avoid eye contact despite knowing Itachi is an uchiha and just genjutsu'd that prostitute. ), did?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since you seem to think Tsuande has no knowledge on Itachi and Itachi magically has a bunch, so explain what Itachi would know about Tsunades abilities.

Link for Asuma being caught in Genjustu?
 Kurenai was forced and blitzed into Genjustu. Thats much different. Kuranei is also a less skilled, slower, and less reflexive Shinobi then Tsuande. Tsuande just doesn't get forced into Genjustu in the same manner.

If anything. This explains my point even further. If Itachi was looking Jirayia dead in his eyes and wasn't inclined to use Justu, then why do you think he uses Genjustu everything Tsunade accidentally looks him in his eyes as if he can automatically activate such. That's not true. Genjustu takes time to activate and Itachi basically has to have you in a perfect position to do so.

Itachi isn't that much faster if faster at all then Jirayia in speed. I agree with handseals though.

Tsunade has knowledge on crow Genjustu/finger Genjustu. Naruto was caught in said Justu and they are required to relay information to the Hokage. Jirayia may not know however.

Fireball? Jirayia matches it with his own Katon or Tsuande simply walks through it basically or smacks it away. Crow? Tsunade has knowledge on it, and I'm positive Jirayia knows to star weary of crows flocking from Itachis body. clones ? Retstricted.

Lol no not at all. The reason why what you said doesn't work is because Itachi didn't merely say something along the line of " I can't afford to battle you " , he straight ass admired inferiority to Jirayia. Just because you don't want to fight someone that's part of your villages doesn't mean you have to say they are better then you? Itachi could have simply turned around and escaped. Case closed. He never EVER had to admit inferiority. That's Kishis way of saying that Itachi isn't as above the Sannin as you make him seem to be. 

Tsunade had knowledge on finger Genjustu and Itachi won't be constantly casting it, so it won't be much of a problem.

She doesn't need to dodge them. She can survive attacks that shred humans, and tank a sussanos "strongest" offensive move. A Kunai is nothing to Tsuande. This also gives Tsunade an advantage considering she can walk through damage unlike most Shinobi. 

The speed gap isn't that big bro. Being able to blitz Oro + being superior to Itachi on CQC means that Itachi has no chance up close. Clones? Restricted. Fire weapons? Tanked. Genjustu ? Avoided. Please do explain that what Itachi can do against a punch that has AoE of over 50meters if he's 10 feet away from her ?

Pull up scans of Tsunade doing it. And if Jirayia can look Itachi dead in the eye , then in confident that Tsuande can accidentally a very few times throughout a battle.

Correction; we have seen Shinobi with less self control get caught in Genjustu. Not Tsunade.

We have no idea how many times Madara tried to do catch the Gokage in Genjustu on panel. Facts are though that he NEEDED a distraction and multiple sets of V3 Sussano to do so against Ay. 

Naruto is also less intelligent , has less Genjustu skill, and has less chakra control then any Sannin member. Naruto also used this knowledge to avoid eye contact all together and was caught by finger Genjustu he had no knowledge on.

When was Oro caught twice ? And Kuranei was forced into it. She also has less self control and is tiers below any Sannin member.

That helps my point ? Kakashi and Oro were only caught by Genjustu because they thought they could match his Genjustu with their own. Tsunade and Jirayia do not have this luxury.

When did they blitz EMS Sasuke ? You mean in the woods?

Shisuis eye isn't part of Itachis arsenal.

Novice Naruto not being able to escape Itachis Genjustu doesn't equal a Sannin. Naruto is less intelligent and less adapt at Genjustu then them all.

Itachi gets most of his praise from MS. Without it he isn't even near high tier Kage level.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 19, 2014)

Really? I could say the same thing about anybody really. When you are fighting Tsunade, the probability that the fight is going to prolong is slim because she can force you into CQC, negate your offensive ability through monster like Durability and regeneration and can overwhelm you with her Herculean like strength . She also had the intelligence and self control to avoid tricks most Shinobi would get caught in and change her fighting style mid battle.

Tsunade also isn't going to dick around against Itachi ? What does he know about Tsuande or Jirayia ?

Kurama wasn't going to help Naruto break anything. Naruto also is less intelligent then any Sannin member, didn't have any knowledge on finger Genjustu, and has child like Genjustu skill compared to Sannin members,

Why is that relevant if Oro was in his death bed ?


----------



## Akitō (Jun 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I know this, and I might agree if the Madara v Gokage fight hadn't lasted an entire day.



The Madara battle was weird to begin with because he wasn't trying at all. It's unfair to use this as an example when we know that he wasn't looking to end the fight as fast as possible. 



Rocky said:


> Hashirama also went against Madara for about that long without being wtfpwned by an illusion.



He didn't get beaten by the illusion, but we don't know if he was caught. And Hashirama is perhaps the strongest base character in the series, so him not losing to genjutsu isn't very indicative of its effectiveness. 

And also, you seem to be under the impression that I think Tsuande is going to lose to a genjutsu. I don't. All I'm arguing against is the idea that simply looking at any place lower than the Sharingan user's eyes will completely neutralize genjutsu.



> I'm also aware that characters have been caught before, but as I said to another poster, the only characters that have been ensnared by ocular genjutsu were:
> 
> A. Unaware of it. [1][2]
> 
> ...



What other way of being caught in genjutsu is there? Obviously if someone is caught here they would have been caught off guard because they aren't going to get ensnared purposefully. Just because Tsunade is aware and concerned doesn't at all mean she can't get caught off guard, particularly when we've seen Itachi manage to cast genjutsu in every one of his fights so far. Why do you think Kabuto went out of his way to develop a tactic that would prevent Itachi from casting genjutsu on him? It's because even if you're careful, there's still a very real chance that you'll get caught by Itachi. 



> Itachi is probably the most proficient illusion caster in the manga, but lets not kid ourselves. Madara, Sasuke, and Obito are the strongest Uchiha to ever exist and excel in _all_ areas of their Sharingan. All four (including Itachi) are perfectly fluent in casting genjutsu during a fight.



Them excelling in all areas doesn't mean that they're comparable to Itachi. Just look at their fights: Itachi's incorporated genjutsu into nearly every one of his fights. That's an indication of his fluency in using it mid-fight. I'm not denying that Madara, Sasuke and Obito are all naturally going to be good at it too, but I think there's a big difference between them and Itachi. The only one who might be near Itachi in terms of the actual casting of the genjutsu is Madara (and even then, I'd argue that he isn't on Itachi's level), but he seems to be much more casual about his approach in fights anyway (i.e. he likes to show off and use massive ninjutsu).



Turrin said:


> This is incorrect. Kishi made it clear that one can avoid Itachi's Genjutsu by avoiding eye-contact. Gai's method of reading ones movements based on their feet is merely one method to fight the enemy competitively while avoiding eye-contact. There are plenty of other methods we've been exposed to since then that also work, this is simply Gai's answer as someone who specializes in physical combat and is not very proficient with other Ninja Techniques.



I should've said of "of the same nature" I guess. I understand that there are various ways to prevent genjutsu, but I was mainly talking about ways that are similar to Gai's technique; that is, just looking somewhere else other than the person's eyes. I don't think the author would've made Gai recommend his strategy to Asuma and Kurenai if they could have the same outcome by just looking at his chest, which according to Rocky would've been much easier to do. That would make Gai, Asuma, and Kurenai all fools. 

However, I'm a strong advocate of the idea that line-of-sight blockers like smoke are also valid ways to defeat genjutsu.



Dr. White said:


> Don't concede things that aren't true. Kakashi didn't even know what MS was or that there was a difference between MS and regular sharingan hence whyhe though he was fine with 3 tomoe.



Then why would he react in the way that he did when Itachi activated it? He clearly thought the Mangekyō was a greater danger. 

Your point about his underestimation isn't really relevant because he can underestimate the Mangekyō Sharingan but know it's a greater threat than the normal Sharingan. They aren't mutually exclusive.


----------



## KnightGhost (Jun 19, 2014)

Based on black zetsu hype he destroys them dude is invincible.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's funny how the "Uchiha genjutsu hype" was nowhere to be seen in the last hundred chapters even though the bad guys were all Elite Uchiha.



How can we see it if the only Uchiha alive in the last hundred chapters was Madara?



> Yes, Madara could have forced her into genjutsu, but Base Itachi cannot _force_ her into anything.



He doesn't need to force her. The thing is capturing her in one or hinder her fighting style only looking at Itachi's coat.

And if Madara could have forced her into genjutsu then you see how weird is the argument of him trying and failing. In case you are following it.



> The people that have fallen for ocular genjutsu were either unaware of it, unconcerned about it, or forced into it.
> 
> Tsunade is aware of it, has reason to be concerned about it, and cannot be forced into it.
> 
> Itachi may be able to _trick_ her into it, but eh.



Tricking her into it or making her fight 'restricted' is my main point. Tsunade is not fighting like Gai trying to avoid Itachi's twenty fingers and eyes. Especially when dodging one of her punches, he can look at her in the face. He can force eye contact without using brute force as he can read her movements, just like Sasuke did to Chi or whatever his name is.



> Gai's training is excessive, really. There is no reason to stare at a person's feet if your goal is to avoid eye contact.



That's the goal that 5 in inteligence Kakashi followed as the best thing to do.



> Just don't look at their eyes, there is literally no advantage to be gained from doing so.



Also, Gai's training is not excessive as we have no feats of somebody avoiding Sharingan genjutsu by only not looking at someone's eyes other than an off panel fight when putting Tsunade in genjutsu was not even needed.

Her equal Sannin failed twice to genjutsu. By following portrayal as well, i seriously doubt that Tsunade is much better than Oro at avoiding genjutsu. Especially Itachi's, who doesn't need his eyes to put you in one.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 19, 2014)

Akitō said:


> All I'm arguing against is the idea that simply looking at any place lower than the Sharingan user's eyes will completely neutralize genjutsu.



The way to avoid being placed in an ocular illusion is to avoid eye contact. That's it. That's fact. Itachi told B "don't look in my eyes," not "stare at my feet." 

I believe that the need to stare at the feet has been retconned. I honestly do, because really, when was the last time it was mentioned? 

Was Gai really starring at Obito's feet the entire time during that battle? If so, why did he not tell Naruto and B to do the same?


----------



## Rocky (Jun 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> How can we see it if the only Uchiha alive in the last hundred chapters was Madara?



Madara, Obito, and Sasuke...



> He doesn't need to force her. The thing is capturing her in one or hinder her fighting style only looking at Itachi's coat.



How does it hinder her fighting style?



> Tsunade is not fighting like Gai trying to avoid Itachi's twenty fingers and eyes.



What will ephemeral actually accomplish..?



> Especially when dodging one of her punches, he can look at her in the face. He can force eye contact without using brute force as he can read her movements, just like Sasuke did to Chi or whatever his name is.



What is looking at her face going to accomplish if he cannot force her to look at him? 



> Also, Gai's training is not excessive as we have no feats of somebody avoiding Sharingan genjutsu by only not looking at someone's eyes other than an off panel fight when putting Tsunade in genjutsu was not even needed.



Minato vs. Obito. Kakashi vs. Kakuzu. Sauce vs. Raikage, etc.



> Her equal Sannin failed twice to genjutsu. By following portrayal as well, i seriously doubt that Tsunade is much better than Oro at avoiding genjutsu. Especially Itachi's, who doesn't need his eyes to put you in one.



The first time, he wasn't aware of the Sharingan's power if his reaction is anything to go by.

The second time, it was the Totsuka sword, which I don't count as genjutsu...


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> > How does it hinder her fighting style?
> 
> 
> IDK Rocky, she's barely a high tier speedster if that, who got beat by a freaking teenage medic, who wasn't even good at taijutsu in pt. 1. Since then she has failed to kill oro, threatened by Asura blitz, and oly recently shown good combat feats via byakugou: and then she got stomped again.
> ...


----------



## Rocky (Jun 19, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> IDK Rocky, she's barely a high tier speedster if that, who got beat by a freaking teenage medic, who wasn't even good at taijutsu in pt. 1. Since then she has failed to kill oro, threatened by Asura blitz, and oly recently shown good combat feats via byakugou: and then she got stomped again.



Had she activated creation rebirth, she would have broken Kabuto's neck, but he took advantage of her blood _phobia_ anyway. She knocked Orochimaru the fuck out, and was threatened by Shurado after protecting the villagers from CST. A few moments later, she collapsed into a coma...

Fast forward to War Arc and she's smacking giant Susano'o around with her bare hands.



> It was never broken... Itachi was able to pull out Naruto's worst fears and regrets, so he can do the same with Tsunade using Dan, and Nawaki, which would def have her tripping for sometime ; this assuming she can eventually break it which there is no evidence for.



I agree, but then what? What does he do after that?



> Why can't he? Unless she is legit gonna fight 100% eyes closed, Itachi can just force eye contact or a finger in her face.



Which she can just turn away from. Why do you think Itachi grabbed Kakashi's head?



> Then slash her head off.



With what strength feat? He isn't taking her head off with mere Kunai. Slit her throat? Sure, but the pain will break the illusion and Byakugo will heal the wound. 



> None of those people you listed are primary genjutsu users, Sasuke uses it when he needs it (to save him via Manda, get info frem zetsu, throw off izanagi, take out a sensor quickly,etc) Madara used it once to take out a speedster, and Obito used it similar to Sasuke.



Gai didn't create his foot method to fight Itachi. He created it to fight the Sharingan.



> Everyone and their mama knows about the power of 3 tomoe sharingan. Mangeyou I would give you but not base sharingan. Orochimaru himself studied more about the ninja world then most, was in ANBU, and immediately recognized Itachi's eyes. He was surprised at Itachi's genjutsu skill. Because a 14 year old sharingan wielder should not be capable of taking down a sannin with a glance.



Orohimaru didn't expect Itachi's illusions to be so potent, which is what I'm saying.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Had she activated creation rebirth, she would have broken Kabuto's neck, but he took advantage of her blood _phobia_ anyway. She knocked Orochimaru the fuck out, and was threatened by Shurado after protecting the villagers from CST. A few moments later, she collapsed into a coma...


It doesn't matter she was a Sannin who was determined to kill Oro, and Kabuto made a fool out of her even before he pulled the blood card. She punched Oro's lights out, but even with no arms he managed to pierce her in which she needed her yin seal to survive. I also don't know if Oro was really trying to kill her seeing as she was the key to him getting his arms back.



> Fast forward to War Arc and she's smacking giant Susano'o around with her bare hands.


Wasn't that with Byakugou? Susano is also pretty stationary while base Itachi is not. Madara was also fighting 4 other kage.




> I agree, but then what? What does he do after that?


Whatever he chooses, hell he can even just run up to her and put her in 3 tomoe genjutsu and further mindfuck her. He can make her dis activate her jutsu, and lop her head off. Or stab her in her head. 





> Which she can just turn away from. Why do you think Itachi grabbed Kakashi's head?


Yeah no that ain't happening here. Itachi is >> Tsunade in speed and reactions. It isn't like he needs to keep her there for more than under a second. He caught Bee in between dodging a hit from behind his back, and casting a fire jutsu. That's legit all the eye contact he needs. Considering Itachi was able to get in Kabuto's face quite easily as well as Bee who are >>> Tsunade.





> With what strength feat? He isn't taking her head off with mere Kunai. Slit her throat? Sure, but the pain will break the illusion and Byakugo will heal the wound.


Itachi clearly has more than human strength. He was able to kick Sasuke into making a dent into the cement. He was also able to match Sage Kabuto with Sasuke's sword vs his scalpel. He lopped Orochimaru's hand off with fire flow as well. You forget he can also fire flow his weapons should he so desire to.

A mere Kunai just pierced Obito's hand, a mere kunai stabbed Obito with Zetsu armor, a mere Kunai lopped of Gato's mouth (it was in Zabuza's mouth to meaning it didn't have alot of force. Why is Tsunade's durability >>> Orochimaru's all of a sudden? She takes hits by healing fastly not by being made of steel.

Also Itachi genjutsu's Bee before he is seared here.




> Gai didn't create his foot method to fight Itachi. He created it to fight the Sharingan.


He created to fight Kakashi's sharingan. He explicitly states that after years of rivalry with kakashi he has found a way to avoid being genjusu'd by him. That is fine and dandy but Kakashi is < Itachi in genjutsu and doesn't use it as often meaning Gai's method is untested against someone like Itachi and pretty irrelevant, considering he has broken through many other methods.

It's also a terrible way to fight sharingan in general as they usually are fast, have better reflexes, and in the case of MS users have OHKO potential.


Orohimaru didn't expect Itachi's illusions to be so potent, which is what I'm saying.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Turrin (Jun 19, 2014)

Akitō said:


> I should've said of "of the same nature" I guess. I understand that there are various ways to prevent genjutsu, but I was mainly talking about ways that are similar to Gai's technique; that is, just looking somewhere else other than the person's eyes. I don't think the author would've made Gai recommend his strategy to Asuma and Kurenai if they could have the same outcome by just looking at his chest, which according to Rocky would've been much easier to do. That would make Gai, Asuma, and Kurenai all fools.
> 
> However, I'm a strong advocate of the idea that line-of-sight blockers like smoke are also valid ways to defeat genjutsu.


They could look wherever they want and get the same results, in terms of avoid Genjutsu. It's just being able to still fight Itachi where they need to look at his feet.


----------



## Akitō (Jun 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The way to avoid being placed in an ocular illusion is to avoid eye contact. That's it. That's fact. Itachi told B "don't look in my eyes," not "stare at my feet."



Yes, but the way to fight someone while preventing genjutsu is to stare at their feet. I agree with Turrin's stance: you can avoid genjutsu by not looking at Itachi's eyes, but you won't be able to effectively fight him unless you look at his feet to read his movements. 

Itachi told Bee not to look into his eyes because that's the most immediate solution to the most immediate problem. 



> I believe that the need to stare at the feet has been retconned. I honestly do, because really, when was the last time it was mentioned?



Your way of thinking makes Kabuto's strategy to avoid genjutsu seemingly pointless then too. And that happened relatively recently. It might be worth mentioning that he did it against _Itachi_. Notice a pattern here? 

It's clear that Kishimoto still feels genjutsu needs to be addressed at least in the case of Itachi. 



> Was Gai really starring at Obito's feet the entire time during that battle? If so, why did he not tell Naruto and B to do the same?



We know the author knows that Bee and Naruto are immune to ordinary genjutsu. If Gai couldn't have known that (and I'm not sure if he couldn't have), it might just be a minor inconsistency. I'd much rather believe that than him just entirely throwing away Gai's strategy.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 19, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Yes, but the way to fight someone while preventing genjutsu is to stare at their feet. I agree with Turrin's stance: you can avoid genjutsu by not looking at Itachi's eyes, but you won't be able to effectively fight him unless you look at his feet to read his movements.


Let me clarify my stance here a bit. Anyone can avoid Sharingan-Genjtusu by not looking the user in the eyes. However to fight effectively while doing so they need a special method. The only way Gai, Asuma, and Kurunai can do it is looking at his feet.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Let me clarify my stance here a bit. Anyone can avoid Sharingan-Genjtusu by not looking the user in the eyes. However to fight effectively while doing so they need a special method. The only way Gai, Asuma, and Kurunai can do it is looking at his feet.



-You avoid being genjutsu'd by not looking in their eyes. You can do this by looking at their feet to track their movement but this was something Gai had experience in and it was implied him being amazing at Taijutsu allowed him to read bodies better. None of which Jiraiya and Tsuande will have on their side.

Then there is the fact they are clueless of Ukataka


----------



## Turrin (Jun 19, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -You avoid being genjutsu'd by not looking in their eyes. You can do this by looking at their feet to track their movement but this was something Gai had experience in and it was implied him being amazing at Taijutsu allowed him to read bodies better.


Gai's Method is tailored to Gai's speciality. Asuma and Kurnai obviously didn't have anything else, but Gai's method, so they rolled with it. However, you don't need to use Gai's method

Jiriaya and Tsunade may or may not have Gai's method mastered. It didn't seem particularly hard to master, as Gai expect Asuma and Kurunai to learn it mid-battle. 

Speaking in terms of "feats" only though Jiriaya and Tsunade have their own methods. Jiriaya can use Detection Barrier to fight while avoiding eye-contact or utilize KB. Tsunade doesn't even need to worry about it because Yin-Seal constantly flows chakra into her, so it would break her free automatically, also Itachi isn't likely to kill her, even if she was hit by Genjutsu anyway, given her regeneration. Nether of these Shinobi are likely to go down to Three-Tome Genjutsu.

Finger-Genjutsu has zero "feats" of being able to hold Shinobi of Jiraiya and Tsunade's stature. So I see no reason they wouldn't be able to break free. Perhaps it could open them up to a successive attack, but Tsunade would regenerate and I already said given the restrictions in this thread I could see Jiriaya loosing to Itachi; though I could also see him winning, as both have moves/abilities that are quite  threatening for each other and Jiriaya is more significantly handicapped here than Itachi.


----------

