# Touhou-verse vs Undertale-verse



## AzureDaora (Mar 27, 2016)

Scenario 1. In character
Scenario 2. Bloodlusted.

I honestly don't know jack about Undertale so I apologize in advance if this is a curbstomp thread, all I know is that they're pretty powerful and they have some hax themselves.


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## IdioticGamer (Mar 28, 2016)

Touhou loses except for Reimu cuz of Fantasy Heaven, though she probably can't even beat Chara.
Leaning on Touhou loss

Then again Touhou is a pretty cancerous thing to debate with if you don't watch your step.


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## AzureDaora (Mar 28, 2016)

IdioticGamer said:


> Touhou loses except for Reimu cuz of Fantasy Heaven, though she probably can't even beat Chara.
> Leaning on Touhou loss
> 
> Then again Touhou is a pretty cancerous thing to debate with if you don't watch your step.



What are the Undertale ppls' feats?
I've heard that they have a universal but at the same time I also heard that it's just wank.


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## Xadlin (Mar 28, 2016)

Well, first thread is always a first. Helpful tip: always do some research on both sides before you put them against each other.

The thing with Undertale is that the moves they do are hard to calc, since everything is going at the same speed, and strength and durability is questionable. Undyne's greatest fear is suplexing a boulder, but how huge is it? 

Sans is the only one that can dodge, but how fast is he, since we never see how fast Frisk is, when attacking?
The only feat I know is Frisk's, Floweys and Asriels power to reset the timeline and in Angel Asriels case, I heard some fear of his, erasing the whole universe of Undertale, but chara can do the same, or is that just game mechanics?

In Touhou's case, you actually see what they do and how big their attacks and the magnitude of it is.
Like, the sun godess actually using the sun as an projectile against you, and sakyua stopping time, while she is stopping time. 

I knows Sans can possibly stop time(or he teleports) but he is no match for spirits like cirno.

I would say Touhou wins, due to them actually having real feats.


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## Fujita (Mar 28, 2016)

Chara erased the universe, Asriel didn't. Some people scale his true final boss form to Chara, but I've gotten a little more skeptical of that. Interpreting Undertale's feats really comes down to what you make of characters being able to mess with game constructs, which is more meta humor than something that's easy to interpret in a vs context. For instance, Flowey fucks up your save file so that all the monsters and humans vanished without a trace one day, presumably messing with the past. But he only had six souls at that point, while seven are required to break the barrier... and yet wiping humans and monsters out should have simply erased the barrier from existence. So, presumably, he's just screwing with you, changing your save file without actually changing the world at large, or locking you into some kind of corrupted save file. There's no great way to try and analyze that, beyond it being a kind of cool idea of what a character with control over save files could conceivably do to you (locking you in a battle created by him, unable to actually manipulate the game normally). 

Sans is the only one capable of dodging within the turn-based combat system, but only the player seems to actually use that. When monsters fight each other, they fight more or less normally: when Toriel and co protect you against Flowey, they use magic at the same time as he does rather than taking turns, and Undyne was never able to land a hit on Asgore. The lack of dodging ability is more game mechanics than anything else (albeit a game mechanic that actually exists in the Undertale universe).


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## Finalbeta (Mar 28, 2016)

Touhou loses after a decent fight


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## Xadlin (Mar 28, 2016)

Fujita said:


> Chara erased the universe, Asriel didn't. Some people scale his true final boss form to Chara, but I've gotten a little more skeptical of that. Interpreting Undertale's feats really comes down to what you make of characters being able to mess with game constructs, which is more meta humor than something that's easy to interpret in a vs context. For instance, Flowey fucks up your save file so that all the monsters and humans vanished without a trace one day, presumably messing with the past. But he only had six souls at that point, while seven are required to break the barrier... and yet wiping humans and monsters out should have simply erased the barrier from existence. So, presumably, he's just screwing with you, changing your save file without actually changing the world at large, or locking you into some kind of corrupted save file. There's no great way to try and analyze that, beyond it being a kind of cool idea of what a character with control over save files could conceivably do to you (locking you in a battle created by him, unable to actually manipulate the game normally).
> 
> Sans is the only one capable of dodging within the turn-based combat system, but only the player seems to actually use that. When monsters fight each other, they fight more or less normally: when Toriel and co protect you against Flowey, they use magic at the same time as he does rather than taking turns, and Undyne was never able to land a hit on Asgore. The lack of dodging ability is more game mechanics than anything else (albeit a game mechanic that actually exists in the Undertale universe).



Yeah, its a bit vague when it comes to vsbattles. I think the Undertale Tirr list in the mettadome, should clear it up, since that's what I got out from that thread: Undertale is very unclear when it comes to feats.


Finalbeta said:


> Touhou loses after a decent fight


Care to explain?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Mar 28, 2016)

IIRC Touhou's sitting at Solar-system level with FTL speeds.

So unless Undertale can outhax them in some way, people like youmu and Sakuya are gonna be the death of the entire verse.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Mar 28, 2016)

Depending on how feats are interpreted, Undertale either stomps or stalemates. 

For example, it seems Chara is universal. They literally destroyed the universe with an attack whose damage filled the screen with 9's. Afterwards, there is nothing. Just total darkness. No stars or anything. Chara can also recreate the universe for you, but is only willing to if you give them your soul.

If the above is false, however, and Undertale top tiers are still outgunned, they can stalemate via saving and resetting. Creating save files, loading them, and resetting is an in-universe phenomenon. The very same save files you, the player, access. Even when they die, they can come back to their save file, making Frisk, Flowey, or anyone with enough determination functionally immortal. Thus, stalemate. 

Frisk would probably try to make friends with the Touhou characters though.


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## AzureDaora (Apr 3, 2016)

Xadlin said:


> Well, first thread is always a first. Helpful tip: always do some research on both sides before you put them against each other.
> 
> The thing with Undertale is that the moves they do are hard to calc, since everything is going at the same speed, and strength and durability is questionable. Undyne's greatest fear is suplexing a boulder, but how huge is it?
> 
> ...


That's the thing. I tried to research about undertale, but their feats are hard to understand especially from someone like me that hasn't played the game. Based on what I have seen, they incorporate gameplay mechanics as feats harder than Disgaea does


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## AgentAAA (Apr 3, 2016)

Fujita said:


> Chara erased the universe, Asriel didn't. Some people scale his true final boss form to Chara, but I've gotten a little more skeptical of that. Interpreting Undertale's feats really comes down to what you make of characters being able to mess with game constructs, which is more meta humor than something that's easy to interpret in a vs context. For instance, Flowey fucks up your save file so that all the monsters and humans vanished without a trace one day, presumably messing with the past. But he only had six souls at that point, while seven are required to break the barrier... and yet wiping humans and monsters out should have simply erased the barrier from existence. So, presumably, he's just screwing with you, changing your save file without actually changing the world at large, or locking you into some kind of corrupted save file. There's no great way to try and analyze that, beyond it being a kind of cool idea of what a character with control over save files could conceivably do to you (locking you in a battle created by him, unable to actually manipulate the game normally).
> 
> Sans is the only one capable of dodging within the turn-based combat system, but only the player seems to actually use that. When monsters fight each other, they fight more or less normally: when Toriel and co protect you against Flowey, they use magic at the same time as he does rather than taking turns, and Undyne was never able to land a hit on Asgore. The lack of dodging ability is more game mechanics than anything else (albeit a game mechanic that actually exists in the Undertale universe).



I think you're looking too hard at the sequence of events. it's a similar intro, but the "vanished without a trace" thing doesn't need to be timefuckery. It could just be a shortening of the history since, ya know, flowey killed everyone.

As for the PL's, it's not too hard to understand. Asriel talks about destroying the timeline, uses the giant vacuum attack that's implied to erase everything, and more importantly is 6 human soul + every monster souls put together... He also has the ability to completely control save/load and etc. which is something Chara never showed. he pretty much needed you to slowly give him control and even then he requires your help to gain control and destroy everything. Omega flowey could have easily locked you out of the game forever, without help, and had the ability to instantly kill you same as chara.

Asriel, on the other hand, is the only one with (implied and not used, but something that didn't seem to be a lie) the ability to actually reset the players memories. he didn't have the same ability to one-shot Frisk, but the frisk Chara dealt with was far weaker anyways (Omega Flowey had no problem one-shotting the same guy that "gives you a bad time", for instance)


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## Xadlin (Apr 3, 2016)

AzureDaora said:


> That's the thing. I tried to research about undertale, but their feats are hard to understand especially from someone like me that hasn't played the game. Based on what I have seen, they incorporate gameplay mechanics as feats harder than Disgaea does



You basically nailed it. Here's an example:

One sentence says that Undyne lifts a boulder and suplexes it, just for the fun of it. BUT since we can't see the rock, how she suplexes it, how big it is, if it breaks at all when she suplexes, since the only thing we see is that fighting board. 

Sans actually shows in the actual game, outside of the fighting menu, that he can teleport/timestop.
Undyne can summon several magic spears, but most things are up to your imaginations, how they turn out. 

Undyne does become stronger as Undyne the Undying, and gains more durability and attack power.
But as said earlier, it's hard to calc with so little to work with.


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## Fujita (Apr 3, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> I think you're looking too hard at the sequence of events. it's a similar intro, but the "vanished without a trace" thing doesn't need to be timefuckery. It could just be a shortening of the history since, ya know, flowey killed everyone.



but how does he kill everyone 

when he can’t get out of the barrier 

as far as I recall, seven human souls were a requirement, while Flowey has six and doesn’t get “seven” until he manipulates you into doing a pacifist run, letting him get all the monster souls as well (if you complete a neutral run, his end of game dialogue is him trying to sucker you into not killing anyone so he can become Asriel again) 

edit: just to clarify, because I mixed things up a bit 

you can get out of the barrier with only one human soul and a monster soul, but... Flowey doesn't have a soul 

he'd need a boss monster soul to absorb, but he destroys Asgore's before the Omega Flowey fight and the messed-up intro still happens if you've killed Toriel 



> As for the PL's, it's not too hard to understand. Asriel talks about destroying the timeline



We don’t know exactly what he means by that… maybe he corrupts the past/present like Flowey does but is now able to reach beyond the barrier, maybe he blows everything up, but he never actually does any of it so it’s unhelpful for powerscaling purposes. 



> uses the giant vacuum attack that's implied to erase everything



and yet it doesn’t 

For all we see it actually manage to do, Hyper Goner is just a flashy, semi-serious attack that was meant to take Frisk out, but it doesn’t do that, and it leaves the “world” (magic rainbow nowhere space) entirely unchanged after the fact 



> and more importantly is 6 human soul + every monster souls put together…



and Chara has the murderous intent of a being completely outside the universe, but what does that actually mean? Nothing more than the feats we see. These are two different types of power, and you can’t compare them in same way that you can say that Asriel’s stronger than Omega Flowey because he has more souls. 



> He also has the ability to completely control save/load and etc. which is something Chara never showed.



True. But how does that compare to erasing the universe? Hard to say. They’re different powers. 



> he pretty much needed you to slowly give him control and even then he requires your help to gain control and destroy everything.



By that logic, Omega Flowey must be weaksauce because he needed you to take out Asgore before he could get the souls  

What matters is what comes after the powerup, not what it took to get there in the first place. 



> Omega flowey could have easily locked you out of the game forever, without help, and had the ability to instantly kill you same as chara.



But locking you out of the game isn’t precisely the same thing as destroying the game. They don’t scale to one another. And given that a stronger version of himself can’t manage to completely put you down (though ironically, Omega Flowey can kill you while Asriel can't, maybe because Frisk is more determined at that point), I wouldn’t necessarily give him a greater level of control than we actually see (turning the game into a living hell, where he can trap and kill you at his leisure, but not actually locking you out of the game). But then you also run into the problem that all forms of Asriel are holding back against you because they want to play with you, so… 



> Asriel, on the other hand, is the only one with (implied and not used, but something that didn't seem to be a lie) the ability to actually reset the players memories.



Only Sans and Chara ever actually acknowledge the player as a distinct entity. Sans when he pleads with “the anomaly” to stop killing everything because it’s bored, and Chara at the end of the genocide route, when they reveal that your (the player’s) determination to kill gave them a new meaning in life. Chara’s dialogue _could_ be aimed at Frisk, but the obsession with leveling up, and then moving on to destroy different worlds ties in with Sans condemning the player themselves for playing video games in a particularly cutthroat way. And Frisk’s name is only revealed in the pacifist ending, where they go off on their own way, separately from the player, so it makes some sense that in the genocide route the opposite would be true. 

In Asriel’s case, he confuses Frisk with Chara. Once he realizes that, he asks Frisk for their name. Frisk is the character the player controls, Chara’s the character that the player names, but neither of them are actually the player themselves. Asriel only ever talks to Chara or Frisk, while Sans and Chara don’t. 

When he talks about resetting memories and re-doing the whole game, he's talking about Chara, his old friend, not the player. 



> he didn't have the same ability to one-shot Frisk, but the frisk Chara dealt with was far weaker anyways (Omega Flowey had no problem one-shotting the same guy that "gives you a bad time", for instance)



Omega Flowey is stronger than all versions of Frisk, so him also being stronger than Sans doesn’t let you compare Frisk’s strength in different routes. 

And given how much EXP killing Sans gives you, comparing Chara before and after that is kind of ludicrous.


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## cingetorix (Apr 3, 2016)

God tiers of Undertale destroy


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Apr 3, 2016)

No, not really


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## cingetorix (Apr 3, 2016)

how don't they?
the girls only reach up to solar system level


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## Xadlin (Apr 3, 2016)

What can Undertale do against this:


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## Xhominid (Apr 3, 2016)

Pretty much that^

Yukari alone has possibly one of the most broken powers in fiction if you take it to it's logical conclusion.

Being able to manipulate boundaries alone is pretty insane...but if you apply it to metaphysical and fiction...well...


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Apr 3, 2016)

Daiae said:


> how don't they?
> the girls only reach up to solar system level


See Fujita's post.


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## Fujita (Apr 3, 2016)

It’s not like Undertale has zero feats, but their best feats (all of the reality warping shit done by Chara and Asriel’s powered-up forms) are either nebulous or relate confusingly to actual combat. For example, how does Frisk scale to Asriel? Hard to say. He freely admits he’s messing with you, so how high do you scale Frisk’s ability to not die when fighting Asriel, given that beating him (in both forms) has little do with actually beating him in a fight? When Chara becomes powerful enough to erase the universe, you’re unable to do much about it, but does that mean that it’s impossible to, say, freeze Chara in time or brainwash them somehow before they can actually wipe you out? And then you have alternate theories, like, say, Chara only erasing the underground because you need seven souls to break the barrier and they… don’t have seven souls, and that they end up stealing your soul so that they can actually kill things outside the barrier. I don’t agree with that interpretation, but the fact that things are actually up to interpretation this much, makes Undertale hard to debate against verses where they don’t have a clear advantage (like a verse with no reality warping at all or something).


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Apr 3, 2016)

Pretty much

In terms of Raw Showings, Touhou is massively above Undertale in terms of Hax and firepower, shit....Undertale technically can't win because Mokou exists and her resurrection ability pretty much makes it a stalemate.


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## AgentAAA (Apr 3, 2016)

Chara can destroy the universe she's in and thus technically win by BFR, no?


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## Xadlin (Apr 3, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Chara can destroy the universe she's in and thus technically win by BFR, no?



That's the thing, one can't not truly know. Did chara destroy the world of Undertale or did she mess with the timeline to destroy all possible versions of that world, thus making it into a universal-threat?

But since Touhou has characters that can mess with time and space and alter history, would their powers negate that?


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## AzureDaora (Apr 4, 2016)

Based on what I see, it looks like Undertale can't handle the amount of Touhou hax, and it doesn't look like they can do anything that would beat Fantasy Heaven if they can't handle Mokou and Kaguya's resurrection.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 4, 2016)

Wouldn't Frisk just stalemate with endless resetting and retrying? 

Altering history and time and shit is one thing. But doing it on a fourth wall level is another.


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## AgentAAA (Apr 4, 2016)

Xadlin said:


> That's the thing, one can't not truly know. Did chara destroy the world of Undertale or did she mess with the timeline to destroy all possible versions of that world, thus making it into a universal-threat?
> 
> But since Touhou has characters that can mess with time and space and alter history, would their powers negate that?



She destroyed everything. Destroying a timeline has been agreed upon before here as being = to destroying a universe. 
She also restricted someone else's time-space ability to negate such things and her physical attack should be MFTL given she was breaking the whole thing by raw power in the first place.

she destroyed every timeline and thus is universal+. (An argument could be made for Multiversal, but it would be far too flimsy and vague since we don't know how many timelines can be made in the first place)
She also has universal level Reality warping given she could put things back as they were.




> By that logic, Omega Flowey must be weaksauce because he needed you to take out Asgore before he could get the souls
> 
> What matters is what comes after the powerup, not what it took to get there in the first place.



He didn't need you to take out asgore, just to get him to reveal the soul containers.

Also, Omega Flowey, you know... actually powered up. which is an important difference.


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## Fujita (Apr 4, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> He didn't need you to take out asgore, just to get him to reveal the soul containers.



That's not what he says pre-battle

"Howdy! It's me, FLOWEY. FLOWEY the FLOWER! I owe you a HUGE thanks. You really did a number on that old fool. Without you, I NEVER could have gotten past him. But now, with YOUR help... He's DEAD. And I'VE got the human SOULS!"

In the genocide run, he mentions that he can't get Asgore to show him the souls, implying that he might have been able to steal them if he just knew where they were, but that has nothing to do with whether or not he was able to take out Asgore himself. 

Also worth noting that the rest of his spiel implies that he never managed to kill anyone before he gets fucked over by the souls: 

"After all, I only have six souls. I still need one more... Before I become GOD. And then, with my newfound powers... Monsters. Humans. Everyone. I'll show them all the REAL meaning of this world." 

which doesn't explain the intro 



> Also, Omega Flowey, you know... actually powered up. which is an important difference.



Your character's stats are Chara's, not Frisk's (at least, they're labelled as such). After killing Sans, those stats increase, with an absolutely massive increase in EXP. If you advance the game after that point (go to see Asgore), you can't control what happens next, meaning that Chara is strong enough to take control after Sans dies. 

Seems like a powerup to me.


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## AgentAAA (Apr 4, 2016)

Fujita said:


> That's not what he says pre-battle
> 
> "Howdy! It's me, FLOWEY. FLOWEY the FLOWER! I owe you a HUGE thanks. You really did a number on that old fool. Without you, I NEVER could have gotten past him. But now, with YOUR help... He's DEAD. And I'VE got the human SOULS!"
> 
> ...


You know, except that he talks about killing EVERYONE in that same genocide run. and that he notes sans as your biggest threat in the neutral run without even making mention of Asgore.



> I've done everything this world has to offer. I've read every book. I've burned every book. I've won every game. I've lost every game. I've appeased everyone. I've killed* everyone*.



What he likely meant was that he couldn't get past Asgore to get the souls, which would be a bit of PIS given he literally had infinite lifetimes to poke around, but point stands.
It's also notable that flowey might just be clowning you on the "never got past Asgore" thing.




> Your character's stats are Chara's, not Frisk's (at least, they're labelled as such). After killing Sans, those stats increase, with an absolutely massive increase in EXP. If you advance the game after that point (go to see Asgore), you can't control what happens next, meaning that Chara is strong enough to take control after Sans dies.
> 
> Seems like a powerup to me.


It's a levelup for sure, but whether it's charas or frisks is ambiguous. It's one LVL rather than 6 souls though.
That said... Even Flowey flat-out states that if his plan works(namely, Omega Flowey, more or less), that he'd be "even more powerful than you and your stolen soul.".

It's also VERY noteworthy that he talks about "just living with you, on the surface" being enough for him, implying it would give him enough power to pass the barrier... meaning that 6 human souls are close enough to pass the barrier, or at least relatively reliable flowey believes so.


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## Fujita (Apr 4, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> You know, except that he talks about killing EVERYONE in that same genocide run. and that he notes sans as your biggest threat in the neutral run without even making mention of Asgore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those are two different versions of Flowey. Killing things makes you stronger. Flowey might be tough enough to take down Asgore at the culmination of his own genocide run (if he got past Sans he certainly is, since Sans is much harder to fight than Asgore), but the Flowey that you encounter hasn’t done anything of the sort. 



> It's a levelup for sure, but whether it's charas or frisks is ambiguous. It's one LVL rather than 6 souls though.



And we don’t know how those correlate. Certainly, getting to 18 or however high you can go without being on the genocide path still leaves you weaker than Omega Flowey, but the last one is… a major increase. Sans gives you as much EXP as everyone before him combined, including Undyne the Undying, and it (maybe combined with killing Flowey and Asgore) gives Chara an ability that the player character doesn’t have (destroying the universe). There’s no difference in your ability to save and reset (the grand extent of your ability to mess with the universe) with increasing LOVE, until that last increase. You clearly can’t gauge it by what came before.   



> That said... Even Flowey flat-out states that if his plan works(namely, Omega Flowey, more or less), that he'd be "even more powerful than you and your stolen soul.”.



That’s before murdering Sans, and I’m not sure that Flowey actually knows how strong you’re capable of becoming. Frisk starts out stronger than Flowey (taking away his ability to save, until Flowey gets six other souls to put against Frisk’s one), so I dunno that Flowey could really compare how strong he became at the end of his genocide route with how strong Frisk/Chara might become, if he ever even got past Sans to begin with. Sans realizes that the end is nigh, but Flowey’s still talking about living an idyllic life on the surface.  



> It's also VERY noteworthy that he talks about "just living with you, on the surface" being enough for him, implying it would give him enough power to pass the barrier... meaning that 6 human souls are close enough to pass the barrier, or at least relatively reliable flowey believes so.



Or he planned on absorbing “Chara’s” soul, just like when Asriel and Chara first crossed the barrier.


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## Monna (Apr 4, 2016)

A verse that Touhou can actually stomp via quality...

truly a sign that the end days are approaching


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## almanar (Apr 5, 2016)

Undertale.. RESET and SAVE,   you loses !!! continue???  try again ...   Undertale win. urgh


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## IdioticGamer (Apr 5, 2016)

Jane said:


> A verse that Touhou can actually stomp via quality...
> 
> truly a sign that the end days are approaching



Add in the fact that Leonardo DiCaprio got an Oscar. Welp. Looks like the world really is ending.

Surprised that Touhou can actually match Undertale but everyone's points make sense.
I'm wondering if Sakuya can somehow timehax and prevent Chara and Frisk from saving or reloading though


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 5, 2016)

IdioticGamer said:


> Add in the fact that Leonardo DiCaprio got an Oscar. Welp. Looks like the world really is ending.
> 
> Surprised that Touhou can actually match Undertale but everyone's points make sense.
> I'm wondering if Sakuya can somehow timehax and prevent Chara and Frisk from saving or reloading though



It's simultaneously a game mechanic and an in-universe phenomenon. If saving and reloading works in Touhou, it will work in favor of Chara and Frisk too. That depends if Touhou does that, though. I've never actually played the games. I'm just here for Undertale.


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## Xadlin (Apr 5, 2016)

IdioticGamer said:


> Add in the fact that Leonardo DiCaprio got an Oscar. Welp. Looks like the world really is ending.
> 
> Surprised that Touhou can actually match Undertale but everyone's points make sense.
> I'm wondering if Sakuya can somehow timehax and prevent Chara and Frisk from saving or reloading though



Well, she can compress time and bring in another version of herself, from another timeline.
So if she could shield herself from the resets, and since she's faster, she might be able to stop them.


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## Fujita (Apr 5, 2016)

IdioticGamer said:


> Also been wondering, how would determination apply? I always see people use it but wouldn't in theory other humans be able to use determination?



Only humans in Undertale have "determination" in the sense of having a magic power that lets you reset time (as seen with Flowey, Frisk, and the other fallen children) and resist death (Undyne the Undying). 

Just being determined to win or whatever doesn't let you do these things in other verses, so it won't carry over in cross-verse matches. Sure, if they'd been born in the Undertale universe, they would have it, just like if somebody was born in the Harry Potter universe they might be able to do magic, but that doesn't mean they can do magic just because they're pitted against people from the Harry Potter verse.


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## SunRise (Apr 5, 2016)

I don't know about Touhou but they should be ready for certain characters in UT that can unleash universal level attacks at most likely MFTL speeds and practically unkillable with save-load abilities.


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## Tonathan100 (Apr 5, 2016)

Scott Steiner solos both verses in one Steiner Recliner.

Also...

>Touhou
>Undertale
>Winning a Quality Battle against anything, even each other


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## Fujita (Apr 5, 2016)

Since you can take away somebody's ability to save and reset as long as you have enough determination, the ability would probably fail against anybody with more potent space/time manipulation, regardless of the exact mechanism. 

Well, we'd assume that it would be overpowered anyway, because that'd be NLF otherwise, but it's nice to see a limit actually defined in the series


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## Weather (Apr 5, 2016)

Tonathan100 said:


> Scott Steiner solos both verses in one Steiner Recliner.
> 
> Also...
> 
> ...



Seriously you are trying so hard lately.

Poor you.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Apr 5, 2016)

Tonathan100 said:


> Scott Steiner solos both verses in one Steiner Recliner.
> 
> Also...
> 
> ...



>Touhou
>Bad

Low tier b8 m8

>Undertale
>Bad

Itt: Shitty fandoms make verses shitty

>Had a pedobane set at one point


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 5, 2016)

Fujita said:


> Since you can take away somebody's ability to save and reset as long as you have enough determination, the ability would probably fail against anybody with more potent space/time manipulation, regardless of the exact mechanism.
> 
> Well, we'd assume that it would be overpowered anyway, because that'd be NLF otherwise, but it's nice to see a limit actually defined in the series



The problem I see with that is it would require proof that in-universe reality warpers from other games or fiction can affect the game itself on your computer. For Undertale characters, it's done on a fourth wall level, since you saving your game file on your computer and saving points in an in-universe timeline, and the subsequent resetting, are both one-in-the-same phenomenon. 

I mean, shit, Ultemicia from FFVIII compresses all of time, right? A universe level feat? Welp, restting your game, deleting your file, or loading your last save undoes all of that.


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## Fujita (Apr 5, 2016)

Colonel Awesome said:


> The problem I see with that is it would require proof that in-universe reality warpers from other games or fiction can affect the game itself on your computer. For Undertale characters, it's done on a fourth wall level, since you saving your game file on your computer and saving points in an in-universe timeline, and the subsequent resetting, are both one-in-the-same phenomenon.
> 
> I mean, shit, Ultemicia from FFVIII compresses all of time, right? A universe level feat? Welp, restting your game, deleting your file, or loading your last save undoes all of that.



Not sure I agree with this  

Code and such is Undertale’s medium. If a character warps reality, say, in a comic, they end up “changing” the ink on the page, because that’s what makes up their universe (from our perspective), but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re breaking the fourth wall or acting outside the confines of the comic itself. Saves and such are things that exist in the Undertale universe, and which characters can use to manipulate it, depending on how powerful they are. 

Undertale’s more self-aware of its medium than a lot of other works of fiction are (most manga don’t involve the characters talking about how they’re in a manga), and a lot of the laws of that universe are genuinely based on game mechanics, but that doesn’t mean that everything is fourth-wall in the sense of characters operating outside the universe itself. The player is the only person who’s genuinely outside the game (arguably, Chara is as well when souped up on the player’s determination and the EXP of every monster in the underground). 



Tonathan100 said:


> >Touhou
> >Undertale
> >Winning a Quality Battle against anything, even each other



if I told you that one of the characters has infinite stats, would that change your mind


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## Blocky (Apr 5, 2016)

A shitty fanbase doesn't make the game bad
If you actually tried it. it's pretty good


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## SunRise (Apr 6, 2016)

*Tonathan100*, 





> >Touhou
> >Undertale
> >Winning a Quality Battle against anything, even each other


Well, Undertale is better than most fiction, so it's most likely too easy win for little cute pixel game. And I heard that Touhou is not too shabby either, so elaborate.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 6, 2016)

Fujita said:


> Not sure I agree with this
> 
> Code and such is Undertale’s medium. If a character warps reality, say, in a comic, they end up “changing” the ink on the page, because that’s what makes up their universe (from our perspective), but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re breaking the fourth wall or acting outside the confines of the comic itself. Saves and such are things that exist in the Undertale universe, and which characters can use to manipulate it, depending on how powerful they are.
> 
> Undertale’s more self-aware of its medium than a lot of other works of fiction are (most manga don’t involve the characters talking about how they’re in a manga), and a lot of the laws of that universe are genuinely based on game mechanics, but that doesn’t mean that everything is fourth-wall in the sense of characters operating outside the universe itself. The player is the only person who’s genuinely outside the game (arguably, Chara is as well when souped up on the player’s determination and the EXP of every monster in the underground).



I'm not so sure I buy your reasoning with the ink and comic book example. The ink in a comic book is just arranged so it represents the scene we are supposed to see. In video games, it's pixels that do the same thing. In Undertale, saving your game data, erasing it, or resetting it is both the same as you would for any other game, but also a direct and major plot point. In most other games, characters do not have this medium-awareness. In most other games, reality warpers can do as much as they want, but all their shenanigans are set back to the start if you reset your save files.

When it comes to fourth wall breaking in Undertale, Flowey outright talks about loading save files, and replacing your save file with his own when you fight him as Omega Flowey. He crashes the game if he kills you. He save scums mid-fight, exactly as one would in an emulator, though he can have multiple saves, including one right at the start of the fight. He sometimes makes another save state right before he attacks, and if he misses, reloads that save state to try and hit you again. It's quick and seamless. Even if you beat him, he can just load his save file and fight you from the start again.

Late in the genocide path, Flowey makes reference to to people who watch Let's Plays, calling them sickos who are too weak to do genocide themselves, and would rather watch someone else do it. 

Sans, meanwhile, indirectly references the player in a Genocide route, whom he refers to as an anomaly that will never be satisfied with all the killing they're doing. 

I'm just trying to put things into perspective.


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## TheForgottenPen (Apr 6, 2016)

Tonathan100 said:


> Scott Steiner solos both verses in one Steiner Recliner.
> 
> Also...
> 
> ...


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## AzureDaora (Apr 6, 2016)

Colonel Awesome said:


> Again, that depends. In Touhou, do you create save files, load them, and are able to reset/delete them and start new ones?



You don't have save files in Touhou. Each game you can beat in 30 minutes.
It's just very hard to do.
Is that save hax automatic? What if Flowey gets suspended in time? Kaguya was able to manipulate eternity in Eientei (A building of some sorts) for hundreds of years. Which is, again, kind of suspending something in time by negating any type of change.

Speaking of Imperishable Night, not only does Sakuya and Kaguya able to stop time, but a myriad of characters. In Imperishable Night every team time stops the entire night, which is a total of eight characters. I don't remember if just one of them stops time, but teams are divided in two so that equals to at least four characters able to stop time, including Kaguya that makes 5.

also yay 10 posts


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## Fujita (Apr 6, 2016)

The thing is, there are saves that have nothing to do with actual files being saved on your computer. Flowey and the other fallen humans all had that power (Toriel says that she often feels like she already knows the humans that she meets), but that was before the player started messing around with the universe. They couldn’t have saved their files onto your computer, since that all took place before you even created a single save file (apparently Omega Flowey will mock you for not having a save file if you play the game without saving once, so it’s not like one’s automatically created for you just by virtue of you playing the game). Save files are a thing that exist in the universe itself. 

You store things on your computer because your computer’s the tool that you use to interfere with the game universe. Other people having more control over that universe messes with what you’re able to do, not because they can necessarily reach out and affect your computer, but because they can control the universe to a greater extent than you’re able to. Another thing is that not all of the code itself is “canon” to the world, because there are some things that take place in the story that are different from the nuts and bolts that go into making the game playable (some characters have different programmed stats than the ones listed, because they’re meant to be holding back against you, for example). Another example is Flowey being able to do things that the game’s code doesn’t allow you to do (burning the books), since there’s a limit to how much shit you actually want to program into a game… which is different from what’s possible in-universe. 

The reference to let’s-players is actually kind of weird in that it’s the most awareness any character has of the outside world… coming from a character that never actually seems to acknowledge the player. Flowey still believes that you’re Chara at that point, and it’s only as Asriel that he realizes that the character is actually Frisk. I think that might be one instance of fourth-wall breaking that’s not actually meant to be a plot point


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 7, 2016)

AzureDaora said:


> You don't have save files in Touhou. Each game you can beat in 30 minutes.
> It's just very hard to do.
> Is that save hax automatic? What if Flowey gets suspended in time? Kaguya was able to manipulate eternity in Eientei (A building of some sorts) for hundreds of years. Which is, again, kind of suspending something in time by negating any type of change.
> 
> ...



I'm not really sure how Undertale top tiers would handle time stop, to be honest. I specify top tiers cause anyone who doesn't have determination save hax and reality warping is pretty much a non-factor, leaving us with Frisk, Chara, and Flowey/Asriel. Maybe Sans too depending on his real stats, but I dunno. 

But yeah. In Undertale when Frisk saves their file, they do so at designated save points that presumably only they can see. If Frisk is killed, they can reload their last save point, making them essentially immortal. They can die over and over again, but they'll always come back. Omega Flowey is the only one who was abusing save states mid-fight. 



Fujita said:


> The thing is, there are saves that have nothing to do with actual files being saved on your computer. Flowey and the other fallen humans all had that power (Toriel says that she often feels like she already knows the humans that she meets), but that was before the player started messing around with the universe. They couldn’t have saved their files onto your computer, since that all took place before you even created a single save file (apparently Omega Flowey will mock you for not having a save file if you play the game without saving once, so it’s not like one’s automatically created for you just by virtue of you playing the game). Save files are a thing that exist in the universe itself.
> 
> You store things on your computer because your computer’s the tool that you use to interfere with the game universe. Other people having more control over that universe messes with what you’re able to do, not because they can necessarily reach out and affect your computer, but because they can control the universe to a greater extent than you’re able to. Another thing is that not all of the code itself is “canon” to the world, because there are some things that take place in the story that are different from the nuts and bolts that go into making the game playable (some characters have different programmed stats than the ones listed, because they’re meant to be holding back against you, for example). Another example is Flowey being able to do things that the game’s code doesn’t allow you to do (burning the books), since there’s a limit to how much shit you actually want to program into a game… which is different from what’s possible in-universe.
> 
> The reference to let’s-players is actually kind of weird in that it’s the most awareness any character has of the outside world… coming from a character that never actually seems to acknowledge the player. Flowey still believes that you’re Chara at that point, and it’s only as Asriel that he realizes that the character is actually Frisk. I think that might be one instance of fourth-wall breaking that’s not actually meant to be a plot point



Wait, so are we agreeing or disagreeing?


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