# MaRcO iSn'T AdmIraL LevEL



## Rasendori (Mar 5, 2021)

Take a knee.

Reactions: Funny 12 | Winner 10 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Chronophage (Mar 5, 2021)

This is gonna fire back so hard once the Admirals go all out. But hey sure, enjoy the wave as long as you can.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 6 | Funny 4 | Winner 2 | Friendly 1 | GODA 1 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 3 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


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## Quipchaque (Mar 5, 2021)

Take a Knee... To the face. King knows all about it.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Rasendori (Mar 5, 2021)

Victor Vegapunk said:


> This is gonna fire back so hard once the Admirals go all out. But hey sure, enjoy the wave as long as you can.


We already saw the Admirals go all out in marine ford. They still couldn't pull a solid win on maboi.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Chronophage (Mar 5, 2021)

Rasendori said:


> We already saw the Admirals go all out in marine ford. They still couldn't pull a solid win on maboi.


Righty right, Imma out.

Just like we saw Marco go all out at Marine Ford.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Until further notice, Marco >/= Admiral

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 7


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## Quipchaque (Mar 5, 2021)

Victor Vegapunk said:


> This is gonna fire back so hard once the Admirals go all out. But hey sure, enjoy the wave as long as you can.



Lol no it isn't because no one is arguing that Marco is equal to or Stronger than all admirals. He is just saying Marco is clearly in the same Ball park that they will definitely need high diff to beat him. Which is sensible and fair to both parties.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 7 | Winner 3


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## Magentabeard (Mar 5, 2021)

Victor Vegapunk said:


> This is gonna fire back so hard once the Admirals go all out. But hey sure, enjoy the wave as long as you can.


Next time will Fujitora need another admiral to get beat up and sent home by YC2-3s?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chronophage (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Until further notice, Marco >/= Admiral


Akainu > Marco + Vista.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 6 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## muchentuchen (Mar 5, 2021)

Akainu's the Heavyweight champ, Kizaru the Light heavyweight champ and Marco is contending for the Flyweight belt.

The admirals are just built different.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kroczilla (Mar 5, 2021)

But he isn't though

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Chronophage (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Evidence?


Read the manga.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## Chronophage (Mar 5, 2021)

Enjoy the Wano arc Marcoboyos. I'm coming after every last one of your scalps once Kizaru and Greenbull hit the block. 

Every sane person with two working brain cells left can tell Akainu completely shits on Marco but hey you're free to believe whatever you want.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Victor Vegapunk said:


> Enjoy the Wano arc Marcoboyos. I'm coming after every last one of your scalps once Kizaru and Greenbull hit the block.
> 
> Every sane person with two working brain cells left can tell Akainu completely shits on Marco but hey you're free to believe whatever you want.


Kizaru, Greenbull and Fujitora aren't Akainu. If we see Greenbull this arc he'll be no more impressive than Marco.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 5, 2021)

?

Admiral/yonkou > Marco > King

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5


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## Furinji Saiga (Mar 5, 2021)

Victor Vegapunk said:


> Enjoy the Wano arc Marcoboyos. I'm coming after every last one of your scalps once Kizaru and Greenbull hit the block.
> 
> Every sane person with two working brain cells left can tell Akainu completely shits on Marco but hey you're free to believe whatever you want.


More like let them enjoy this chapter.  

People jump the gun, and you can tell Marco fans are really desperate to quantify these feats as "Admiral level". 
They have their conclusions ready.


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2021)

Marco is in their ballpark, in the sense that he would give any of them high-diff (except perhaps Akainu) and a run for their money. I've also always thought that he might have a chance at potentially beating the weakest one. In terms of speed, physical strength, and devil fruit mastery, he is on their level. The main difference is they have him beat in their destructive capabilities, durability, and _maybe _their endurance. Their showing against Whitebeard also gives them an edge over him, overall. The difference in their Haki is unknown, but as Marco's sailed on the WSM's ship for over 30 something years, he shouldn't be a slouch in that department compared to them, either.

There has also been nothing in the panels _they've shared_ to suggest outright superiority to him. The fact is, he's come out of his encounters with them for the most part, looking pretty even, which is something only the Emperors and Garp have shown to be able to do. Years ago, it would've been considered impossible for an Admiral to beat a Yonko's top 3 YC at once. In fact, their top 2 was generally thought to give an Admiral a solid run for their money. Katakuri and Cracker certainly didn't help further that notion, but the fact remains that Marco is taking on Kaido's top 2 at once, and is still retaining the upperhand. Hell, next chapter, it could take a 3rd YC to intervene just to bring him down for good..the only other characters in the series who could still survive or perform under such circumstances, would be an Admiral, and then the Yonko.

Like I said before, I didn't think Marco needed redemption, but this chapter should elevate him in some people's eyes. The Grudge War really distorted and shook his standing in the world, but it was something we know very little about.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2 | GODA 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Furinji Saiga said:


> More like let them enjoy this chapter.
> 
> People jump the gun, and you can tell Marco fans are really desperate to quantify these feats as "Admiral level".
> They have their conclusions ready.


When has an Admiral fought a YC1 and YC2 at once? Admiral's need to show they are Marco level.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2021)

Furinji Saiga said:


> More like let them enjoy this chapter.
> 
> People jump the gun, and you can tell Marco fans are really desperate to quantify these feats as "Admiral level".
> They have their conclusions ready.



A co-chairmen of the Zoro fanclub talking about jumping the gun

Reactions: Funny 4 | Informative 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 5, 2021)

Marco isnt Admiral level though. Take a seat.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Keep dodging me Strob lmfao.


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## Furinji Saiga (Mar 5, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> A co-chairmen of the Zoro fanclub talking about jumping the gun


The Grandmaster is undeniable! 

But you do not see me wanking Oden and Kaido/Yonko like so many of my kind do...

It would be tactical for me to do so...but I do not.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 5, 2021)

Marco literally didnt deal any visible damage to either Kizaru or Akainu 

his good feats simply widen the gap between admiral and YC1

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Winner 1


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## Shrike (Mar 5, 2021)

Kizaru shits on Marco in a serious fight.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | GODA 1


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Keep dodging me Strob lmfao.


No idea what you mean

But hey, I'm sure you can find a bunch of same level characters who are completely unable to damage the other even when cheapshotting them along a similar level character


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Marco literally didnt deal any visible damage to either Kizaru or Akainu


Kizaru gonna look like Perospero against Carrot or Queen if he gets a pheonix claw to the face.


Strobacaxi said:


> No idea what you mean
> 
> But hey, I'm sure you can find a bunch of same level characters who are completely unable to damage the other even when cheapshotting them along a similar level character


Akainu didn't get hit.


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## Six (Mar 5, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Marco is in their ballpark, in the sense that he would give any of them high-diff (except perhaps Akainu) and a run for their money. I've also always thought that he might have a chance at potentially beating the weakest one. In terms of speed, physical strength, and devil fruit mastery, he is on their level. The main difference is they have him beat in their destructive capabilities, durability, and _maybe _their endurance. Their showing against Whitebeard also gives them an edge over him, overall. The difference in their Haki is unknown, but as Marco's sailed on the WSM's ship for over 30 something years, he shouldn't be a slouch in that department compared to them, either.
> 
> There has also been nothing in the panels _they've shared_ to suggest outright superiority to him. The fact is, he's come out of his encounters with them for the most part, looking pretty even, which is something only the Emperors and Garp have shown to be able to do. Years ago, it would've been considered impossible for an Admiral to beat a Yonko's top 3 YC at once. In fact, their top 2 was generally thought to give an Admiral a solid run for their money. Katakuri and Cracker certainly didn't help further that notion, but the fact remains that Marco is taking on Kaido's top 2 at once, and is still retaining the upperhand. Hell, next chapter, it could take a 3rd YC to intervene just to bring him down for good..the only other characters in the series who could still survive or perform under such circumstances, would be an Admiral, and then the Yonko.
> 
> Like I said before, I didn't think Marco needed redemption, but this chapter should elevate him in some people's eyes. The Grudge War really distorted and shook his standing in the world, but it was something we know very little about.


He'd still give Akainu a high fight. To be honest, apart from being the potential final marine Luffy fights, I've never seen why people put him on such a pedestal. The fact that he barely scraped by against Kuzan shows there is no clear-cut strongest amongst the Admirals not including Garp.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Akainu didn't get hit.


Why the "ku...!! Agh how irritating" speech bubble?
Why the clear cuts in his neck?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


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## Mariko (Mar 5, 2021)

Mariko said:


> I don't get the pb with Burgess being solo'd by Sabo.
> 
> *Like it or not, Sabo's top tier, admiral level and probably near Yonku lvl (a la Marco).*



2015 boys. 



When it comes to powerscalings always bet on Mariko 

@A Optimistic

Reactions: Funny 4 | GODA 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2021)

Coruscation said:


> We don't know what actually happened in the Vista and Marco vs. Akainu scene. We've never seen anything else like it. They both cut Akainu using Haki and sliced straight through his body, but he took no damage. Instead he just separated into magma as usual. Vista's cut had his head hanging to the side with a large cut into his neck. If that was a normally connecting Haki attack Akainu would be dead. But it was clearly more than just a failed attack as well because Haki was used and even commented on. But we simply don't know exactly what happened.
> 
> Anyone should be careful drawing conclusions because we don't have all the knowledge we need to determine the ins and outs of the incident.



Coruscation eventually gave a pretty good explanation for why they only managed to "irritate" Akainu. Haki and its application is based on willpower manifested. As Marco and Vista were shaken by Ace being fatally injured, their Haki was consequently shaken or ineffective in the moment. It's basically the only time we've ever seen high level Haki users being unable to connect with logias, so it would make sense that it would be an anomaly, more so than Oda just trying to imply Akainu's strength > Marco + Vista. 


*Spoiler*: __ 








This translation further illustrates this with Vista's dialogue. Akainu was also shown to be in pain, although the damage was of course, inconsequential as the attack had failed.

Reactions: Like 1 | GODA 1


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## Sloan (Mar 5, 2021)

I don’t think so.


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

Magentabeard said:


> Next time will Fujitora need another admiral to get beat up and sent home by YC2-3s?


hahahaa


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## Typhon (Mar 5, 2021)




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## Sloan (Mar 5, 2021)

I don’t think Marco is Admiral level per my standards but this is an over rated scene.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vengeance (Mar 5, 2021)

Good showing for Marco, but he still isn't admiral level. 
Admirals are not "overwhelmingly defeated" by a Rookie Yonkou.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Louis-954 (Mar 5, 2021)

Mariko said:


> 2015 boys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good thing I don't.

I'd be broke by now.


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## Dark Knight (Mar 5, 2021)

Kizaru basically had to cheat to beat this guy.Marco is the real deal.


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## Typhon (Mar 5, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Coruscation eventually gave a pretty good explanation for why they only managed to "irritate" Akainu. Haki and its application is based on willpower manifested. As Marco and Vista were shaken by Ace being fatally injured, their Haki was consequently shaken or ineffective in the moment. It's basically the only time we've ever seen high level Haki users being unable to connect with logias, so it would *make sense that it would be an anomaly, more so than Oda just trying to imply Akainu's strength > Marco + Vista
> 
> This translation further illustrates this with Vista's dialogue. Akainu was also shown to be in pain, although the damage was of course, inconsequential as the attack had failed.
> *


I can't remember the last time I was this triggered. This guy is really trying to say Marco and Vista were just compromised and acting like that isn't an L in and of itself

And Coruscation was a notorious commander supporter, so that isn't saying anything either.


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

We've never even seen admiral dominate two commanders like we just saw in 1006

Never seen an Yonkou fight one on one with a YC1 and not one shot him.
Yet we've seen YC1 after YC1 challenge Kizaru and Fujitora only to see them fight one on
one contests without clear superiority. It's ridiculous.


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2021)

Typhon said:


> I can't remember the last time I was this triggered. This guy is really trying to say Marco and Vista were just compromised and acting like that isn't an L in and of itself
> 
> And Coruscation was a notorious commander supporter, so that isn't saying anything either.



If you're this easily triggered, it's a problem you have to work on.

Any potential explanation using reading comprehension beats jumping to conclusions when something hasn't even been properly explained by the author himself. Of course, I'm not even saying that's what happened, but just assuming it has to simply do with strength would be dense. Especially when Aokiji and Kizaru have both done the same thing against Whitebeard. But sure, we can agree to disagree if you want to just take things at face value by thinking that the scene implies Akainu would beat both of em. Let's just ignore all other narrative context and call it an L.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 5, 2021)

Marcos body was full of literal holes from Kizarus lasers


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Why the "ku...!! Agh how irritating" speech bubble?
> Why the clear cuts in his neck?


Akainu's body didn't get hit.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Akainu's body didn't get hit.


mantra


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> mantra


I don't know. Whitebeard missed Kizaru when his haki was at an all time low. Marco and Vista missed Akainu when their spirit was crushed. But then we know Marco and Jozu can hit Admirals with their haki, so I guess Akainu's haki can literally lolnope people and Kizaru/Aokiji's can't? Akainu is way stronger than them then.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gianfi (Mar 5, 2021)

Victor Vegapunk said:


> This is gonna fire back so hard once the Admirals go all out. But hey sure, enjoy the wave as long as you can.


We already saw at least one of them, Akainu, go all out. And an half dead WB beat his ass

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Typhon (Mar 5, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> If you're this easily triggered, it's a problem you have to work on.
> 
> Any potential explanation using reading comprehension beats jumping to conclusions when something hasn't even been properly explained by the author himself. *Of course, I'm not even saying that's what happened*, but just assuming it has to simply do with strength is pretty dense. Especially when Aokiji and Kizaru have both done the same thing against Whitebeard. But sure, we can agree to disagree if you want to just take things at face value by thinking that the scene implies Akainu would beat both of em. Let's just ignore all other narrative context and call it an L.


You're blatantly admitting you're reaching and have the audacity to say something about reading comprehension.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Whimsy (Mar 5, 2021)

He's not admiral level, ironically this reflects better on the admirals as they were pretty clearly superior to Marco who is now 1v2'ing yonkou commanders

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2021)

Typhon said:


> You're blatantly admitting you're reaching and have the audacity to say something about reading comprehension.



I'm admitting to the potential for different possibilities, which have a chance of happening until the author himself explains it. Which is something many people here aren't capable of doing because they only see things at face value.

What is your interpretation of the events, based on what you've read?

You've had to have come to some sort of conclusion yourself, while reading that and ignoring all the other events that have occured.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SomnusUltima (Mar 5, 2021)

??? any admiral rofl stomp king+queen

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

SomnusUltima said:


> ??? any admiral rofl stomp king+queen



The answer is always only Akainu. If Akainu's feats did not exist Marco would have the
best non-yonkou feats in the series

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fel1x (Mar 5, 2021)

I think we should unite admiral and FM tier now in one

cause they are the same strong

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> The answer is always only Akainu. If Akainu's feats did not exist Marco would have the
> best non-yonkou feats in the series


Akainu >= Aokiji=Kizaru is the canon

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Akainu >= Aokiji=Kizaru is the canon


Unfortunately it's Akainu >/= Aokiji >/= Kizaru. Aokiji is the stop gap between important Admiral and unimportant Admiral side character.

Try again next time

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Tokikake (Mar 5, 2021)

Damn this Coruscation guy hasn't posted in 5 years and people are still talking about him

What a legend

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## Typhon (Mar 5, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> I'm admitting to the potential for different possibilities, which have a chance of happening until the author himself explains it. Which is something many people here aren't capable of doing because they only see things at face value.
> 
> What is your interpretation of the events, based on what you've read?
> 
> You've had to have come to some sort of conclusion yourself, while reading that and ignoring all the other events that have occured.


What I saw was Akainu recover from an attack that split Marineford and neither Marco nor Vista has shown that kind of attack power. The haki to hit a target only means so much if you're not backing it up with serious firepower.

Jozu hit Aokiji (Akainu's near equal) with a free shot and only gave him a bloody lip. I have no reason to think Marco and especially Vista would heavily outperform that if they also got clean looks just as we saw with Akainu

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Akainu >= Aokiji=Kizaru is the canon



Why Kizaru can't beat raleigh, Marco and Benny. Every time a yonkou commander pulls up to him
they are clean.

Then people have to pull up with 14 Veteran+ fighters to fight Akainu

Kizaru is a bum. Yet y'all think he can fight 14 veteran+ fighters at a time

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2021)

Typhon said:


> What I saw was Akainu recover from an attack that split Marineford and neither Marco nor Vista has shown that kind of attack power.


My point was never to suggest Marco had what it took to bring down Akainu.


Typhon said:


> The haki to hit a target only means so much if you're not backing it up with serious firepower.


Agreed. And hence, we can only either assume that their Haki wasn't enough, or they didn't use their strongest attacks, or both.




Typhon said:


> Jozu hit Aokiji (Akainu's near equal) with a free shot and only gave him a bloody lip. I have no reason to think Marco and especially Vista would heavily outperform that if they also got clean looks just as we saw with Akainu



Jozu hit him once, same with Marco and the Admirals and vice versa. Marco didn't use any of the named attacks that he did in the recent chapter.

Again, I believe that instant had less to do with powerscaling, and more to do with plot circumstances. You can use the word "compromised" if you want to, because that's likely what happened. They were compromised. Also, if we took that scene at face value, Akainu would be much stronger than his fellow Admirals. This is the same train of logic that people who assumed Marco had "shit offensive firepower" were using. So you can see why I may have some issues taking that scene so literally.


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## Rob (Mar 5, 2021)

C3 mid diff Marco

Reactions: Like 8 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 3


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## Mrdude (Mar 5, 2021)

I am convinced that Marco is around Fujitora’s level at the very least. If Marco is anywhere within that range then he is definitely Admiral level.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## NotTommy (Mar 5, 2021)

I still see him below an Admiral but one of the closest dudes to them. We'll see once his fight progresses and we see more from the Admirals in due time but I don't think Marco can beat any of them. We'll see, I guess. Either way, Marco's hella strong, taking on King and Queen (and next chapter it might even become a 3v1 with Perospero assisting the Beast Pirates).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Empathy (Mar 5, 2021)

Marco’s definitely shown to be on par with an admiral, or, “_admiral level_.” But people assume that admirals are all nigh equal just because Akainu and Aokiji had a near-draw, that doesn’t mean that everyone with the title of admiral is almost identical in strength. Prime Garp was considered, “_admiral level_.” Akainu did prove to be stronger than Aokiji, and he’d probably have an easier time beating Kizaru or Fujitora (albeit, still high difficulty). All yonkous aren’t almost equal in strength, nor are even their even first-mate, as shown in this chapter. Marco’s clearly stronger than the likes of King or Katakuri, but they’re all still considered, _“YC1_,” level, despite that covering a pretty decent range. Marco would probably give Kizaru a close fight, and his feats are honestly better than Fujitora’s at this point, but that’s not the same as being just about as strong as Akainu.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Empathy said:


> Marco’s definitely shown to be on par with an admiral, or, “_admiral level_.” But people assume that admirals are all nigh equal just because Akainu and Aokiji had a near-draw, that doesn’t mean that everyone with the title of admiral is almost identical in strength. Prime Garp was considered, “_admiral level_.” Akainu did prove to be stronger than Aokiji, and he’d probably have an easier time beating Kizaru or Fujitora (albeit, still high difficulty). All yonkous aren’t almost equal in strength, nor are even their even first-mate, as shown in this chapter. Marco’s clearly stronger than the likes of King or Katakuri, but they’re all still considered, _“YC1_,” level, despite that covering a pretty decent range. Marco would probably give Kizaru a close fight, and his feats are honestly better than Fujitora’s at this point, but that’s not the same as being just about as strong as Akainu.


Admiral level = top tier

Low top tiers could be considered the weakest you can be but still qualify as an Admiral
High top tiers such as Garp or Sengoku would be exceptional even among Admirals


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Empathy said:


> d he’d probably have an easier time beating Kizaru or Fujitora


That's a bunch of nonsense you're just tryna make it seem like all admirals aren't similar in strength which they're,
Akaniu>Kizaru>Aokiji
Greenbull>Kizaru>Fujitora


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## God Movement (Mar 5, 2021)

He isn't.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

God Movement said:


> He isn't.


Not even close to be considered on their general level?


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## TheOmega (Mar 5, 2021)

Victor Vegapunk said:


> This is gonna fire back so hard once the Admirals go all out. But hey sure, enjoy the wave as long as you can.



Only thing that's gonna fire back when that happens is that ya'll are gonna realize how much weaker than the Yonko they are lol.

The reason people's tiers are fucked is because they somehow think Admirals are Yonko level but Luffy will correct that by 1v1 one of them after he leaves Wano


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> on


He can stall yonkos while not even going all out, but his haki+kicks cant even hurt an admiral
admirals are vastly superior to the yonkos

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## God Movement (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Not even close to be considered on their general 'level'?



No. Admiral/Yonkou level is ONE level. Some Yonkou are stronger than some Admirals and some Admirals are stronger than some Yonkou. Do I think Marco can beat any of them? No. I do think he can beat any YC1 though, so he's somewhere between that level and what we will call "top tier". For what it's worth, I speculate Sabo to also be in that tier by now.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> Only thing that's gonna fire back when that happens is that ya'll are gonna realize how much weaker than the Yonko they are lol.


Hold this L


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

God Movement said:


> No. Admiral/Yonkou level is ONE level. Some Yonkou are stronger than some Admirals and some Admirals are stronger than some Yonkou. Do I think Marco can beat any of them? No. I do think he can beat any YC1 though, so he's somewhere between that level and what we will call "top tier". For what it's worth, I speculate Sabo to also be in that tier by now.


Can't really argue with that.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

God Movement said:


> No. Admiral/Yonkou level is ONE level. Some Yonkou are stronger than some Admirals and some Admirals are stronger than some Yonkou. Do I think Marco can beat any of them? No. I do think he can beat any YC1 though, so he's somewhere between that level and what we will call "top tier". For what it's worth, I speculate Sabo to also be in that tier by now.



That's preposterous. Some admirals fight 14+ veteran level fighters and 4 commanders+ 4 vets on their own
while some admirals fight one on one with YC1s. Admiral and Yonkou are different things

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheOmega (Mar 5, 2021)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Hold this L


"The Navy" not a single one of them possess World's Strongest  titles, sitchu ass the fuck down lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> "The Navy" not a single one of them possess World's Strongest titles, sitchu ass the fuck down lol


They are the worlds government greatest military power tho and the WG pick the yonkos, also they rule the sea
What titles do the yonkos have?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## God Movement (Mar 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> That's preposterous. Some admirals fight 14+ veteran level fighters and 4 commanders+ 4 vets on their own
> while some admirals fight one on one with YC1s. Admiral and Yonkou are different things



What are you talking about? The greatest pirates of this generation and the greatest marines of this generation are roughly equal in my view.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

God Movement said:


> What are you talking about? The greatest pirates of this generation and the greatest marines of this generation are roughly equal in my view.



Show me the panels of Kaido fighting one on one with a YC1 and not winning like Kizaru and Fujitora have.


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## God Movement (Mar 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> Show me the panels of Kaido fighting one on one with a YC1 and not winning like Kizaru and Fujitora have.



We're not going to do this.

Fujitora hasn't gone out of his way to try to take out a YC1 and the only chance Kizaru has had is the Marineford war which was full of weird inconsistencies like Mihawk trading with Vista who he should be able to beat quite easily and Mihawk messing around instead of just taking Luffy down.

Guess what though? We have panels of Kizaru trading with SILVERS RAYLEIGH



and panels of Kaido almost being killed by KOZUKI ODEN



Share your thoughts on that.

Reactions: Like 5


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> Show me the panels of Kaido fighting one on one with a YC1 and not winning like Kizaru and Fujitora have.


What? Since when was Luffy yc1? oh your doing that to wank the yonko's didnt katakuri nerf himself, had sympathy  on him
Luffy was Yc2 and Kaido in 1001 admitted he hit Luffy in his head (where he has no haki at)


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## Yumi Zoro (Mar 5, 2021)

Victor Vegapunk said:


> Akainu > Marco + Vista.



That is Marco pre Time skip.

Who still manage yo put a fight against the Admiral.

We are talking about Post Time skip Marco.

The one who survived without an scratch the playback War.

Clashed with Big Mom

And is baby-sitting King and Queen.

The best part is that he has to get serious.

He still have Awakening and hybrid mode left.

He is definitely Admiral level at least.

Reactions: Like 3


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## God Movement (Mar 5, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> That is Marco pre Time skip.
> 
> Who still manage yo put a fight against the Admiral.
> 
> ...



Marco is a static character. There is no pre/post skip Marco. It's the exact same Marco.

Also Marco isn't Admiral level.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Mar 5, 2021)

God Movement said:


> Marco is a static character. There is no pre/post skip Marco. It's the exact same Marco.
> 
> Also Marco isn't Admiral level.



Post Time skip Marco has named attack unlike pre Time skip Marco.

That alone show he is not a static character.

Cet over it bro or you will embarase yourself further.


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## God Movement (Mar 5, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> Post Time skip Marco has named attack unlike pre Time skip Marco.
> 
> That alone show he is not a static character.
> 
> Cet over it bro or you will embarase yourself further.



But.... never mind, you're just saying anything at this point.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Mar 5, 2021)

God Movement said:


> But.... never mind, you're just saying anything at this point.



Just accept you are wrong.

It wont reduce you in anything.

Or remain in denial so that you Can keep taking your L from now on.

There are more Marco feat coming by the way.

Pretty sur he will go to the rooftop to help the SN against either Big Mom or Kaido.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## TheOmega (Mar 5, 2021)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> They are the worlds government greatest military power tho and the WG pick the yonkos, also they rule the sea
> What titles do the yonkos have?



WSM Yonko WB
WSC Yonko Kaido

Kaido got clashed with equally by Yonko BM
WB got clashed with equally by Yonko Shanks

I know you hurtin right now.

Yonko>>sAdmiraLs lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> There are more Marco feat coming by thé way.


that only hypes the admiral more btw


Mikasa said:


> Pretty sur he will go to the rooftop to help the SN against either Big Mom or Kaido.


Was thinking the same hyogro,pedro,sanji,hawkins someone would take care of under the roof, he'll fight both tho

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## God Movement (Mar 5, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> Just accept you are wrong.
> 
> It wont reduce you in anything.
> 
> ...



Concession accepted.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheOmega (Mar 5, 2021)

Imagine talkin this all this proAdmiral nonsense just to see Luffy 1v1 that ass after needing a whole gang against Kaido.

Shit gonna be delicious

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Optimistic 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> WSC Yonko Kaido


WSC Kaido isn't a thing hold your L this has been debunked so many times and you know it


TheOmega said:


> WSM Yonko WB


Not a yonko if he could've had the one piece at any time he wanted


TheOmega said:


> Kaido


And are fighting at full power against 5 rookies and cant even finish them lol


TheOmega said:


> clashed


that just means kizaru would embarass shanks, akaniu would embarrass shanks, aokiji would embarrass shanks


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## Yumi Zoro (Mar 5, 2021)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> that only hypes the admiral more btw
> 
> Was thinking the same hyogro,pedro,sanji,hawkins someone would take care of under the roof, he'll fight both tho



Yes, pretty Much this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> all


Idk if you read one piece but Kaido needs help from another yonko

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

God Movement said:


> We're not going to do this.
> 
> Fujitora hasn't gone out of his way to try to take out a YC1 and the only chance Kizaru has had is the Marineford war which was full of weird inconsistencies like Mihawk trading with Vista who he should be able to beat quite easily and Mihawk messing around instead of just taking Luffy down.
> 
> ...



He sent a named attack at Marco. Whitebeard called it bright, Marco walked into it smiled and then overpowered him. 

Fujitora clashed with Sabo


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## zoro (Mar 5, 2021)

Like I always said, he's the next best thing to the admirals and Yonko alongside old Ray and most likely Beckman. Maybe top 10 in the world right now, definitely top 15

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> called


Marco used his regen + Barrier Haki
+ That attack wasn't nearly as powerful as it was when he sent it again for the supernova's


Commanderbilli said:


> Fujitora clashed with Sabo


This is yc1 sabo after clashing with Fuji, while fuji was playing/holding back with him


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Marco used his regen + Barrier Haki
> + That attack wasn't nearly as powerful as it was when he sent it again for the supernova's
> 
> This is yc1 sabo after clashing with Fuji, while fuji was playing/holding back with him



Why wasn't it as strong as the supernova one Kizaru stated he would end it quickly by taking out whitebeard. 
It was meant for whitebeard not scrubs. 

Yes I agree Fujitora was more comfortable than Sabo but it was a one on one. Akainu fights 10+ veteran tier
fighters at the same time and Kaido fights 4 commanders + 4 vets at once. That's a world away from looking
better in a one on one against a commander.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

This all hinges on greenbull. If he is as strong as Aokiji then admiral tier is considerably above 
YC1. If greenbull is like fujitora then admirals are just special YC1s


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> Why wasn't it as strong as the supernova one Kizaru stated he would end it quickly by taking out whitebeard.
> It was meant for whitebeard not scrubs.


Even so it has nothing to do with it, just like how Mihawk Used a slash and it was blocked by jozu, guess that was mihawk strongest slash right? Nope, + Marco was the only one who could block that since he has insane regen kizaru even talked about it + you can see where the holes hit marco


Commanderbilli said:


> Yes I agree Fujitora was more comfortable than Sabo but it was a one on one. Akainu fights 10+ veteran tier


wow, seems like a downplay I see, 10+ vet tiers thats funny, he was fighting 2 warlord, marco, Vista, Ivankov,Jinbei, + other whitebeard commanders like izo who can damage kaido but can't damage akaniu isnt that funny??


Commanderbilli said:


> Kaido fights 4 commanders + 4 vets at once. That's a world away from looking
> better in a one on one against a commander.


who? the only commanders are the dog and cat guys who are at best yc2 they needed multiple minks just for jack so at best yc2 together

Reactions: Like 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> This all hinges on greenbull. If he is as strong as Aokiji then admiral tier is considerably above


Greenbull is stronger than kizaru didn't you get the hint already lol?
Aokiji Introduced First-Fujitora(weakest)
Second strongest introduced- Kizaru (2nd strongest)
Last Introduced- (the strongest of the 3, akaniu/Greenbull)


Commanderbilli said:


> fujitora then admirals are just special YC1s


what? why would the admirals be yc1? there were 2 admirals candidate who are stronger than yc1's yet fuji +greenbull passed them in favor

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Chronophage (Mar 5, 2021)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Greenbull is stronger than kizaru didn't you get the hint already lol?
> Aokiji Introduced First-Fujitora(weakest)
> Second strongest introduced- Kizaru (2nd strongest)
> Last Introduced- (the strongest of the 3, akaniu/Greenbull)
> ...



There is nothing that suggests Kizaru is stronger than Aokiji. Kizaru's record is the reason why
admirals are being compared to YC1s


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> There is nothing that suggests Kizaru is stronger than Aokiji. Kizaru's record is the reason why
> admirals are being compared to YC1s


Obviously it does if KIzaru is always seen getting the right-hand whilst aokiji get the 3rd in commands, akaniu gets the boss
how? I'll love to know how kizaru record is a reason? I remember reading the rayleigh fight he never said he lost his strength from his prime only his fatigue,stamina
kizaru was manhandling that, already putting admirals above yonkos by a good margin


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 5, 2021)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Obviously it does if KIzaru is always seen getting the right-hand whilst aokiji get the 3rd in commands, akaniu gets the boss
> how? I'll love to know how kizaru record is a reason? I remember reading the rayleigh fight he never said he lost his strength from his prime only his fatigue,stamina
> kizaru was manhandling that, already putting admirals above yonkos by a good margin



Aokiji one shot Jozu when he turned around instantly. The man lost an arm and was taken out of the war.
While Marco faced similar circumstances and Kizaru still needed help and Whitebeard was actually dominating
his fight before his sudden health scare.

The point about the Dark Knight leaves you would considerable room to make up how strong he was.
When the answer is we simply don't know. A top tier who is old but basically had the Yonkou FM role
when he was stronger but for the pirate king so was he admiral level, normal YC1 or maybe stronger.
I think the information in the story regarding Kizaru's performance against Marco and the character economy
of Shanks stopping akainu and ANOTHER YC1 motioning towards Kizaru suggests that the dark knight has 
lost some power.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Mar 5, 2021)

@Kinjin that is not cool ya know.

When you mod dislike my post I better run away or cool down so that you dont hand me the L using your absolute power.


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## Yonatan (Mar 5, 2021)

Holding back 2 pirates with bounties over 1 billion without breaking a sweat. Only Marco.


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## Bobybobster (Mar 5, 2021)




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## Kinjin (Mar 5, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> @Kinjin that is not cool ya know.
> 
> When you mod dislike my post I better run away or cool down so that you dont hand me the L using your absolute power.


I don't let my personal opinions affect my judgement when I mod, don't worry.

I disliked your post because you were rude and because I agree with God Movement (who is an OL legend btw but that's besides the point).

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Bobybobster (Mar 5, 2021)

it's okay marcobros. Once kaido goes down this arc, the mysterious title "WSC" will pass on to warco

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shrike (Mar 5, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> @Kinjin that is not cool ya know.
> 
> When you mod dislike my post I better run away or cool down so that you dont hand me the L using your absolute power.


Mods should be allowed to express their opinions. Without using their powers of course. But being a mod and not allowed to express like or dislike kinda makes it not worth doing it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Friendly 2


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## Yumi Zoro (Mar 5, 2021)

Kinjin said:


> I don't let my personal opinions affect my judgement when I mod, don't worry.
> 
> I disliked your post because you were rude and because I agree with God Movement (who is an OL legend btw but that's besides the point).



I am releived but I was not rude.

Just talking some sense in him.


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## Yumi Zoro (Mar 5, 2021)

Shrike said:


> Mods should be allowed to express their opinions. Without using their powers of course. But being a mod and not allowed to express like or dislike kinda makes it not worth doing it.



All the bans I got in the past make me warry of everyone expecially mods.

It is a second instinct if me now.

Even if the discussion is in my favor I prefer leaving that getting banned cause someone reported me.


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## blueframe01 (Mar 5, 2021)

1006 chapters in and Amirals still haven't injured Marco without seastone cuffs.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Kinjin (Mar 5, 2021)

First off, "Admiral level" is the same as "Yonko level". The terms get brought up way too often to create the narrative that there's some big gap between the Yonko and Admirals which there isn't. Either you're a *top tier* or you aren't. Before anyone wants to quote me, I won't debate Yonko vs Admirals for the 100th time. Just wanted to clarify before I get to the actual topic at hand.

Marco basically proved what I always thought about him more or less and that's awesome. I've him quite stronger than the likes of King and Katakuri and marginally weaker than old Rayleigh and Sengoku which makes Marco a high high tier at worst or a low top tier at best. Based on his feats he'd certainly give an Admiral or Yonko a good fight, higher end of mid difficulty.

He's one of my favourite characters because I like his design, personality and powers. That he's exceptionally strong is just a bonus for me.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2021)

I don't even care if Marco is admiral level or not, but this notion that the Admirals are dead equal to the Emperors is unlikely. The portrayal of the Admirals compared to Whitebeard, was basically the same as the portrayal of Marco, compared to them.

The Admirals and the marines didn't have the world's strongest man, the emperors and pirates did. Another one of the Emperors has been depicted as an equal to both the WSM and the WSS, while also being the benchmark of the main protagonist. This also makes him likely stronger than any of the Admirals, in spite of being completely featless. Kaido has had more hype than almost any living being in the verse, and Big Mom was depicted as an equal to him. Narratively, they could turn out to be the weakest members too. The youngest and newest of the Emperors, Blackbeard, has the power to destroy the world...the Yonko are obviously the apex of the current timeline.

The Admirals are ridiculously overpowered, and a fight between 2 of them (Aokiji/Akainu) has been even more impressive than the brief but enormous clashes we've seen between the Yonko. But as amazing as the Admirals' aura is, the Emperors just have a little more presence.

Edit: Snap, didn't even see Kinjin's post lololol. Just wrote this a while ago. Sorry if the timing was inappropriate.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Neutral 1 | Optimistic 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> Kizaru suggests that the dark knight has
> lost some power.


I have yet  to hear one rayleigh translation say he lost his lost his strength only fatigue/stamina


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> The Admirals and the marines didn't have the world's strongest man, the emperors and pirates did. Another one of the Emperors has been depicted as an equal to both the WSM and the WSS, while also being the benchmark of the main protagonist. This also makes him likely stronger than any of the Admirals, in spite of being completely featless. Kaido has had more hype than almost any living being in the verse, and Big Mom was depicted as an equal to him. Narratively, they could turn out to be the weakest members too. The youngest and newest of the Emperors, Blackbeard, has the power to destroy the world...the Yonko are obviously the apex of the current timeline.


Yes and whitebeard was the strongest and the admirals make him look like a playtoy

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Kizaru, Greenbull and Fujitora aren't Akainu. If we see Greenbull this arc he'll be no more impressive than Marco.


Why do you think Kizaru is significantly weaker than Aokiji and Akainu?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Why do you think Kizaru is significantly weaker than Aokiji and Akainu?


I just think Akainu has much more plot relevance than Kizaru, even Kuzan does.

i would say Akainu >\= Kuzan >\= Kizaru. If all Admiral were created equal Garp and Sengoku wouldn’t be stronger than Fujitora or Kizaru, which we know is not trie.


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> I just think Akainu has much more plot relevance than Kizaru, even Kuzan does.
> 
> i would say Akainu >\= Kuzan >\= Kizaru. If all Admiral were created equal Garp and Sengoku wouldn’t be stronger than Fujitora or Kizaru, which we know is not trie.


We don’t know that though. Fujitoras a bit harder to place since he came out of nowhere, but Kizaru looked incredibly impressive at Marineford. Have we ever seen him in dire straits?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> We don’t know that though. Fujitoras a bit harder to place since he came out of nowhere, but Kizaru looked incredibly impressive at Marineford. Have we ever seen him in dire straits?


Kizaru is not as strong as Garp, nor is Fujitora. My point stands.


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 5, 2021)

P


Doflamingo said:


> I don't even care if Marco is admiral level or not, but this notion that the Admirals are dead equal to the Emperors is unlikely. The portrayal of the Admirals compared to Whitebeard, was basically the same as the portrayal of Marco, compared to them.
> 
> The Admirals and the marines didn't have the world's strongest man, the emperors and pirates did. Another one of the Emperors has been depicted as an equal to both the WSM and the WSS, while also being the benchmark of the main protagonist. This also makes him likely stronger than any of the Admirals, in spite of being completely featless. Kaido has had more hype than almost any living being in the verse, and Big Mom was depicted as an equal to him. Narratively, they could turn out to be the weakest members too. The youngest and newest of the Emperors, Blackbeard, has the power to destroy the world...the Yonko are obviously the apex of the current timeline.
> 
> ...


Akainu melted Whitebeards brain and tanked his attacks while blood ousted before fighting his strongest crew members at the same time to a stalemate. Ora said that the manga would be over in a year if he was looking for One Piece and he’s probably Lucy’s final villain.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Kizaru is not as strong as Garp, nor is Fujitora. My point stands.


That’s your opinion. It’s not confirmed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> That’s your opinion. It’s not confirmed.


You’re joking

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> You’re joking


That’s not an argument.


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> That’s not an argument.


Garp being stronger than Kizaru is consensus. I have the right to laugh.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Garp being stronger than Kizaru is consensus. I have the right to laugh.


You can laugh if you want. I think it’s absurd that you’re making these definitive claims without evidence. Akainu is going to be one of Lucy’s last opponents, if not his last opponent. He’s probably going to give EOS Luffy a high diff fight at the very least. Aokiji was almost dead even with Akainu when they fought. But the last of the three Admirals is significantly weaker than them, because... Do you think that Garp is a lot stronger than Akainu and Aokiji?

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Dunno (Mar 5, 2021)

SaNjI iS nOt StRoNgEr ThAn KaIdO


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## Typhon (Mar 5, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> My point was never to suggest Marco had what it took to bring down Akainu.
> 
> 
> Agreed. And hence, we can only either assume that their Haki wasn't enough, or they didn't use their strongest attacks, or both.



Just to be clear. I'm saying Akainu > Marco and Vista at the same time, peak condition or not. 




> Jozu hit him once, same with Marco and the Admirals and vice versa. Marco didn't use any of the named attacks that he did in the recent chapter.


How does that take away from what I said? Power inflation aside,  given the gravity of the situation, if you're trying to imply Marco wasn't going all out on offense just because he didn't use these new named attacks, that comes off a little hypocritical saying I'm not taking context of the situation



> Again, I believe that instant had less to do with powerscaling, and more to do with plot circumstances. You can use the word "compromised" if you want to, because that's likely what happened. They were compromised.


I disagree, seeing as they weren't doing much better before WB and Ace kicked the bucket. We've only gotten more confirmation as both Big Meme and Kaidou could probably solo their crews



> Also, if we took that scene at face value, Akainu would be much stronger than his fellow Admirals. This is the same train of logic that people who assumed Marco had "shit offensive firepower" were using. So you can see why I may have some issues taking that scene so literally.



None of the Admirals were pushed as far as Akainu. No reason to think what he did makes him much stronger then the others. 

And y'all overstate people saying Marco has trash fire power. Most of us just said he isn't matching Admirals/Yonkou. Nobody bats an eye when we say this about Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 5, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> You can laugh if you want. I think it’s absurd that you’re making these definitive claims without evidence. Akainu is going to be one of Lucy’s last opponents, if not his last opponent. He’s probably going to give EOS Luffy a high diff fight at the very least. Aokiji was almost dead even with Akainu when they fought. But the last of the three Admirals is significantly weaker than them, because... Do you think that Garp is a lot stronger than Akainu and Aokiji?


Garp was Roger’s rival who put Kaido’s rival in his place. Old, busted up Rayleigh fought Kizaru to a standstill and would have had room to spare in his prime.

Here’s your answer: Akainu is stronger than Aokiji and Aokiji is stronger than Kizaru. Why? Plot dictates. If they were all equal, Akainu wouldn’t have become FA.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Shanks (Mar 5, 2021)

Admiral level is anyone that had the Admiral title. If I would have to bet money on Fujitora or Pre-skip Sengoku, I would bet money of Marco. However if it was Kuzan, then I'll bet on Aokji. 

All of a sudden we have a new tier for Marco. FM+ is the same as Low Admiral.


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> i would say Akainu >\= Kuzan >\= Kizaru.


Ay nice job at trying to downplay kizaru when he's obviously stronger


Shunsuiju said:


> If all Admiral were created equal Garp and Sengoku wouldn’t be stronger than Fujitora or Kizaru, which we know is not trie.


comparing old gen to new gen nice
I guess roger and wb weren't equal, wb>roger



Shunsuiju said:


> Old, busted up Rayleigh fought Kizaru to a standstill and would have had room to spare in his prime.


Old rayleigh? Oda boasts rayleigh strength in his vivre card, keep downplaying all you want show me one panel of rayleigh saying something like, "Dang im old my power/strength has weaken" you wont find one only "dang my stamina/fatigue etc...
Kizaru was manhandling Prime rayleigh strength while not even going all out


Shunsuiju said:


> Here’s your answer: Akainu is stronger than Aokiji and Aokiji is stronger than Kizaru. Why? Plot dictates. If they were all equal, Akainu wouldn’t have become FA.


Akaniu-boss
Kizaru-Right hands, marco,ray,benn
Aokiji left hands- Jozu, Lucky roo


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Shanks said:


> All of a sudden we have a new tier for Marco. FM+ is the same as Low Admiral.


Yonkos are low Admiral so that's a pretty good place, even tho Oda has made it clear marco was the strongest yc'1 like all the time lol


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 5, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Garp was Roger’s rival who put Kaido’s rival in his place. Old, busted up Rayleigh fought Kizaru to a standstill and would have had room to spare in his prime.
> 
> Here’s your answer: Akainu is stronger than Aokiji and Aokiji is stronger than Kizaru. Why? Plot dictates. If they were all equal, Akainu wouldn’t have become FA.


No he didn’t. Rayleigh was struggling. That was made clear. In his prime he’d have stood a decent shot of winning (probably around 50/50), but it was clear that he was on the losing end of that fight.

The Fleet Admiral is an administrative position and Akainu barely won over Aokiji with a likely type advantage and 10 days. It’s more likely that they’re all basically equals. If Akainu is stronger, the difference is probably very small. I put Garp on this general level too, with Sengoku, Rayleigh, the Emperors, Mihawk and probably Dragon. Only Roger and Prime Whitebeard are above them and not overwhelmingly. That’s how I see it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Neutral 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 5, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Akainu barely won over Aokiji with a likely type advantage


Naw akaniu didnt have an advantage, I had to re-read marineford to understand that lol


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## Canute87 (Mar 5, 2021)

Rasendori said:


> Take a knee.



Marco didn't do much against Kizaru Kiji or Akainu.

So it just makes the logia admirals look better.


Logia DF's are the GOAT in this series.


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## Bobybobster (Mar 6, 2021)

@Vivo Diez  after reading this thread...


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## Jujubatman12 (Mar 6, 2021)

Rasendori said:


> Take a knee.


How does this prove he Admiral Level? He just stronger than 1 st commanders

Reactions: Agree 1


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Marco didn't do much against Kizaru Kiji or Akainu.
> 
> So it just makes the logia admirals look better.
> 
> ...


Marco looks much better now considering he used basic non named attacks to send the admirals flying. No other character in the series has sent an admiral flying with a non named punch or kick. Means he wasn’t even going all out.


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Typhon said:


> Just to be clear. I'm saying Akainu > Marco and Vista at the same time, peak condition or not.


And I have no problem with that. It's not something i'm going to rule out.

My point is, regardless of whether I believe he can take both of them out, it wouldn't be as a result of that effing panel, which gets completely taken out of context.



Typhon said:


> How does that take away from what I said? Power inflation aside,  given the gravity of the situation, if you're trying to imply Marco wasn't going all out on offense just because he didn't use these new named attacks,


It's also hypocritical to think the Admirals didn't go all out based on the gravity of the situation, but Marco did. If that's what you believe, we disagree. If we're going to take each panel literally, then the fact that Marco didn't use named attacks should be clear visual evidence that he was unable to go all out for whatever reasons, whether due to plot or otherwise. He didn't use the attacks which he showed this chapter; not Blue Bird or Phoenix Brand, which are clearly different from the generic/default kicks he used in Marineford. I know it seems bizarre. Even I questioned parts of this chapter as it made me reevaluate Marineford, thinking there could possibly be no excuse for Marco not to go 100% to help Ace and Whitebeard. However, the fact remains that he didn't utilise his full arsenal. While this could be simply due to retcon, I think it's simply best not to take Marineford too seriously, as there were moments off-panel that we simply didn't see. Also, Marco spent a good majority in the latter half of Marineford chained to seastone.



Typhon said:


> that comes off a little hypocritical saying I'm not taking context of the situation


And I'm only saying that because of the information that we've been given in the series. I'm trying to give you a basis for why that scene shouldn't be taken so matter of factly, and I acknowledge that I could be wrong by the way, as Oda himself hasn't illuminated or further explained the scene.

However, we know that emotion and willpower have a correlation in One Piece. In the series, we've already seen Sanji's abilities being directly related to his emotion. Haki is willpower manifested, and willpower as a concept is intangible and hard to measure, but still a real element in that world. Literally the same thing as the Marco/Vista scene happened when WB fought Aokiji, and likewise for Kizaru. Yet, a bloodlusted and fully driven WB was able to lay Akainu out with 2 enormous blows that had a higher damage output than any of his previous attacks when he was in better condition. It's the same reason why Luffy was able to activate CoC when he was about to see Ace die, due to his resolve to save him; and conversely, why Marco/Vista failed in their attacks, as their resolve was shook after Ace was fatally wounded. This is a logical and sensible approach that hasn't been disproven until Oda confirms it.



Typhon said:


> I disagree, seeing as they weren't doing much better before WB and Ace kicked the bucket. We've only gotten more *confirmation* as both Big Meme and Kaidou *could* probably solo their crews


A lot of the war was off-panelled though, and based on what we did see, Marco was holding his own against the Admirals just fine, individually. It also isn't a confirmation if it's something that _could_ happen. You also have to factor that it's looking less and less likely that each crew is built the same or equal. If anything, Marco and the WB Commanders have widened the gap between themselves and Meme/Kaido's crews.



Typhon said:


> None of the Admirals were pushed as far as Akainu. No reason to think what he did makes him much stronger then the others.


And I agree with the first part, I think he expended more effort than his colleagues.

However, to simply take that scene as the main statement over others means discarding everything else we've seen in MF, hence context.


Typhon said:


> And y'all overstate people saying Marco has trash fire power. Most of us just said he isn't matching Admirals/Yonkou. Nobody bats an eye when we say this about Katakuri.



And if we were to take scenes at face value, then we'd be arguing about the entire Marineford  for instance, Marco showing he was a match for the Admirals  His kick was good enough to break Kizaru's guard and sent him flying, while Vista was strong/skilled enough to match Mihawk blow for blow, yet they were neutered in their attack against Akainu?? You see how it doesn't really add up?

Katakuri is a different character. I've already said many times here that he was screwed over by plot.
However, I do not think that he can be used as a comparison to Marco, and that's potentially being reinforced in
this chapter.


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 6, 2021)

killfox said:


> Marco looks much better now considering he used basic non named attacks to send the admirals flying. No other character in the series has sent an admiral flying with a non named punch or kick. Means he wasn’t even going all out.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## Commanderbilli (Mar 6, 2021)

The equivalence here is Aokiji stumbling across one of Kaido's gifters like Holdem 
and Holdem kicking Aokifi into the air


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## Bernkastel (Mar 6, 2021)

Marco is = old Ray level...stronger than a regular FM but a bit weaker than an admiral/yonkou...any admiral/yonkou would need high diff to beat either of them and mid diff for the likes of King and Katakuri from what we've seen so far.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> P
> 
> Akainu melted Whitebeards brain and tanked his attacks while blood ousted before fighting his strongest crew members at the same time to a stalemate. Ora said that the manga would be over in a year if he was looking for One Piece and he’s probably Lucy’s final villain.


Yes, and an old and dying Whitebeard was still stronger or equal to the Admirals. How do you think an Emperor who is younger and healthier would do?


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## Lord Melkor (Mar 6, 2021)

Bernkastel said:


> Marco is = old Ray level...stronger than a regular FM but a bit weaker than an admiral/yonkou...any admiral/yonkou would need high diff to beat either of them and mid diff for the likes of King and Katakuri from what we've seen so far.



Do you think King or Katakuri could push a solid top tier to medium diffiiculty taking into account Luffy vs Kaidou first round (assuming King and Katakuri are roughly the same level after King goes all out)? Or do you think this was an outlier since Luffy did not use FS etc?


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

Bernkastel said:


> Marco is = old Ray level...stronger than a regular FM but a bit weaker than an admiral/yonkou...any admiral/yonkou would need high diff to beat either of them and mid diff for the likes of King and Katakuri from what we've seen so far.


If Rayleigh was here, King and Queen would already be dead. Marco's inferiority to the old legends was shown clearly at MF.



Doflamingo said:


> Yes, and an old and dying Whitebeard was still stronger or equal to the Admirals. How do you think an Emperor who is younger and healthier would do?


Worse then the strongest man in the world.


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2021)

Marcos ability allows him to sustain damage and heal which could explain how he’s hanging in there. This does not make him admiral level by any means. From a story standpoint this notion falls flat on its face.


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## Bernkastel (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> If Rayleigh was here, King and Queen would already be dead. Marco's inferiority to the old legends was shown clearly at MF.


Based on nothing

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

Bernkastel said:


> Based on nothing


Based on the fact that Rayleigh overpowers Admirals while Marco gets smacked around by them.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Based on the fact that Rayleigh overpowers Admirals while Marco gets smacked around by them.


Rayleigh was panting after a brief skirmish and Kizaru kept pressuring him like “Hmmm..... Dark King not as young as you used to be” in typical troll fashion.

Marco has actually booted admirals and clashed with Yonkou.


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

killfox said:


> Rayleigh was panting after a brief skirmish and Kizaru kept pressuring him like “Hmmm..... Dark King not as young as you used to be” in typical troll fashion.
> 
> Marco has actually booted admirals and clashed with Yonkou.


And Kizaru was bleeding after the same skirmish. Marco's booting hasn't done anything to any Yonkou or Admiral, and he's panting and bleeding after fighting a couple YCs for a few minutes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

The main difference here is that Luffy was never a threat and Aokiji casually let himself get hit because he had logia intangibility and Luffy lacked Haki.

In Marcos case he actively prevented Aokiji from accomplishing his goal by forcibly removing him from the area with a single kick and sending him flying across the battle field. Marco broke one of his ice weapons and broke through his Haki to kick his real body.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> And Kizaru was bleeding after the same skirmish. Marco's booting hasn't done anything to any Yonkou or Admiral, and he's panting and bleeding after fighting a couple YCs for a few minutes.


Kizaru was blessing because Ray attacked him in light form. He didn’t land the attack while they were fighting.

You say he’s never done anything but he’s booting them away against their will with non named attacks. If he for instance hit Aokiji or Kizaru with a named attack directly the admirals would take damage.

There’s a reason Kizaru blocked. If he didn’t he would have got kicked in the head and booted.

Also where is your proof that it’s only been a few minutes? It’s been multiple chapters.

This is also after clashing with big mom and using stamina to prevent a whole room of fodder from turning into ice demons.. He’s also stalling on purpose and it trying to kill them.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 6, 2021)

Some of you are legit children. 

Ace & Jinbe fought for 5 days.

Jack & Minks fought for 5 days.

Meme & Laidou fought for 1 days before retiring to have sex.

Roger & WB fought for 3 days without a winner.

And some of you guys want a definitive winner within the 10 minutes Rayleigh & Kizaru fought.  


The same Rayleigh who was Roger's right hand, a person with CoA 2.0 & CoC that was compared to Shanks. The person whom Garp referred to as legend. 

Pathetic.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> Some of you are legit children.
> 
> Ace & Jinbe fought for 5 days.
> 
> ...


The same guy who was panting and saying he was not in  shape after a brief skirmish?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

killfox said:


> Kizaru was blessing because Ray attacked him in light form. He didn’t land the attack while they were fighting.
> 
> You say he’s never done anything but he’s booting them away against their will with non named attacks. If he for instance hit Aokiji or Kizaru with a named attack directly the admirals would take damage.
> 
> There’s a reason Kizaru blocked. If he didn’t he would have got kicked in the head and booted.


That's a common misconception. Kizaru actually got cut in their clash, since we can clearly see his face before that and it isn't cut. 

So many what-ifs. Marco kicked Kizaru, and Kizaru took no damage. He was sent flying, sure, but that's to be expected since he was mid-air. He also tried to slice Akainu and it did nothing. Marco doesn't have the AP required to injure Admirals. That's pretty clear. He doesn't even have enough AP to defeat King and Queen.



killfox said:


> Also where is your proof that it’s only been a few minutes? It’s been multiple chapters.
> 
> This is also after clashing with big mom and using stamina to prevent a whole room of fodder from turning into ice demons.. He’s also stalling on purpose and it trying to kill them.


Because the fight on the rooftop only took a few minutes, and unless you think Oda is off-paneling the entire duration Luffy is out, no more than a few minutes can have passed since he ran out of steam.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sherlōck (Mar 6, 2021)

killfox said:


> The same guy who was panting and saying he was not in  shape after a brief skirmish?



Not being in shape =/= Should get beat in 10 minutes or even an hour.


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> Not being in shape =/= Should get beat in 10 minutes or even an hour.


People in one piece don’t usually loose steam that quickly . Kizar didn’t even use lazers


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

killfox said:


> People in one piece don’t usually loose steam that quickly . Kizar didn’t even use lazers

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Based on the fact that Rayleigh overpowers Admirals



When did this happen?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Yes, and an old and dying Whitebeard was still stronger or equal to the Admirals. How do you think an Emperor who is younger and healthier would do?


Whitebeards a special case and I don’t think he was stronger.


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> When did this happen?


When Ray and Kizaru clashed, and Kizaru came out of the clash bleeding. It showed that Rayleigh only had a slight edge, but an edge nonetheless.


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Your really comparing Ray clashing for a few minutes to a guy who just clashed with a yonkou, is burning stamina to heal tons of fodder and is holding back two top YC? That’s laughable

Don’t remember Rays skirmish lasting more than a chapter and he was worn out. Marco is doing significantly more work so he should actually be getting tired.



Dunno said:


> When Ray and Kizaru clashed, and Kizaru came out of the clash bleeding. It showed that Rayleigh only had a slight edge, but an edge nonetheless.


No he didn’t get the cut from the clash he cut Kizaru when he tried to go into light form. It was an off guard attack.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Sherlōck (Mar 6, 2021)

killfox said:


> People in one piece don’t usually loose steam that quickly . Kizar didn’t even use lazers



What @Dunno posted.


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> What @Dunno posted.


Read my response. 
Ray vs Kizaru was like 1 chapter and Ray was running out of steam  

Marco has been holding it down since before Zorro was on the roof. Marco has been babysitting the alliance for many chapters and fighting two YC while healing fodder.

Not comparable at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

killfox said:


> Your really comparing Ray clashing for a few minutes to a guy who just clashed with a yonkou, is burning stamina to heal tons of fodder and is holding back two top YC? That’s laughable
> 
> Don’t remember Rays skirmish lasting more than a chapter and he was worn out. Marco is doing significantly more work so he should actually be getting tired.


I'm comparing a guy fighting an Admiral to a guy fighting two YCs. Two YCs are nothing compared to an Admiral. Akainu, after taking a beating from the strongest man in the world, was bulldozing through YCs, including Marco. Marco is even losing to the two YCs, which is ridiculous for someone hoping to challenge a top tier. 



killfox said:


> No he didn’t get the cut from the clash he cut Kizaru when he tried to go into light form. It was an off guard attack.




Top right panel, intercept -> Top left panel, no wound -> Middle panel, Clash -> Bottom right panel, Wound


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Whitebeards a special case and I don’t think he was stronger.


Whitebeard was on his last legs, and still proved to be stronger or equal to the Admirals at the very least. At full strength, he was their superior. 



Dunno said:


> When Ray and Kizaru clashed, and Kizaru came out of the clash bleeding. It showed that Rayleigh only had a slight edge, but an edge nonetheless.



So he didn't overpower him. Also Rayleigh was panting in his fight against Kizaru; even admitted his stamina had regressed. Kizaru was also using a light saber..


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## Canute87 (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> When Ray and Kizaru clashed, and Kizaru came out of the clash bleeding. It showed that Rayleigh only had a slight edge, but an edge nonetheless.


Dunno stop telling people foolishness.

Kizaru started to disperse  into Light going after the strawhats and Rayleigh cut him at that point was  Kizaru COMPLETELY open.


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Whitebeard was on his last legs, and still proved to be stronger or equal to the Admirals at the very least. At full strength, he was their superior.
> 
> 
> 
> *So he didn't overpower him*. Also Rayleigh was panting in his fight against Kizaru; even admitted his stamina had regressed. Kizaru was also using a light saber..


He did overpower him. He clashed with Kizaru and was strong enough to push Kizaru's sword back far enough that he could scrape Kizaru's face. THat is in fact an overpower. He was panting, but Kizaru was bleeding. What he admitted was that he wasn't strong enough to both handle Kizaru and save the SHs at the same time.


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> I'm comparing a guy fighting an Admiral to a guy fighting two YCs.





Dunno said:


> Marco is even losing to the two YCs, which is ridiculous for someone hoping to challenge a top tier.



Except Marco has fought the Admirals lol. Hell, he's done more against them on panel than Rayleigh has..

also nothing that indicates Marco is losing the fight right now. He's thrashing them around and still kickin'. If he's going down, it's either bc their hybrids are op (even then Marco still might have awakening), and then you got Perospero coming in.


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Dunno stop telling people foolishness.
> 
> Kizaru started to disperse  into Light going after the strawhats and Rayleigh cut him at that point was  Kizaru COMPLETELY open.


It's not an opinion. It's a manga fact. We can clearly see that Kizaru has no cut on his cheek after the interception. It is shown to us in the manga it self. There is no ambiguity here. Rayleigh cut Kizaru in their clash. That's shown straight up in the manga.


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> He did overpower him. He clashed with Kizaru and was strong enough to push Kizaru's sword back far enough that he could scrape Kizaru's face. THat is in fact an overpower. He was panting, but Kizaru was bleeding. What he admitted was that he wasn't strong enough to both handle Kizaru and save the SHs at the same time.



Well if he had a slight edge then he didn't overpower him.

Regardless, the result was still a stalemate. Neither gained an upperhand, and Kizaru has more up his sleeve than swordsmanship. Also, he said he came casually. If Kizaru's scratch counts as something, then so does Rayleigh's relatively inferior stamina. Of course, I think they were both serious, but there you go.


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## T.D.A (Mar 6, 2021)

Depends how you define Admiral level. If it's going by strong enough to be offered the position of an Admiral by the World Gov, then yeah, but if it's going by being as strong or stronger than the current Admirals then most likely no as he's probably just below.


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## Canute87 (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> It's not an opinion. It's a manga fact. We can clearly see that Kizaru has no cut on his cheek after the interception. It is shown to us in the manga it self. There is no ambiguity here. Rayleigh cut Kizaru in their clash. That's shown straight up in the manga.



That is a terrible interpretation. 

Rayleigh gave kizaru a clean cut that stopped him in his tracks.  Then Kizaru generated the light saber and the clash you see is the first one.

There's no reason why Oda is going to attempt to highlight a small wound from the first top panels at such a draw distance.

In addition if you've never cut yourself before, as this wasn't a deep cut it takes a little time before the blood starts flowing out of the open wound .

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Well if he had a slight edge then he didn't overpower him.
> 
> Regardless, the result was still a stalemate. Neither gained an upperhand, and Kizaru has more up his sleeve than swordsmanship. Also, he said he came casually. If Kizaru's scratch counts as something, then so does Rayleigh's relatively inferior stamina. Of course, I think they were both serious, but there you go.


I'd say he overpowered him slightly, but that's besides the point. But my argument isn't that Rayleigh is a overall superior to Kizaru. My point is that they both were superior in different categories. Rayleigh made Kizaru bleed while Kizaru made Rayleigh pant, and this means that there's no clear superiority being shown either way. The outcome of a fight between the two would be uncertain.  



Doflamingo said:


> Except Marco has fought the Admirals lol. Hell, he's done more against them on panel than Rayleigh has..
> 
> also nothing that indicates Marco is losing the fight right now. He's thrashing them around and still kickin'. If he's going down, it's either bc their hybrids are op (even then Marco still might have awakening), and then you got Perospero coming in.


He has fought multiple Admirals, and he has done more things to them than Rayleigh has, and he still hasn't been able to damage them at all. 

Marco is clearly losing. He's bleeding even though he has the power to heal any injury he takes, he's commenting on the fact that he has trouble keeping the two of the back at the same time and hes even telling Chopper to hurry up? He wouldn't need to do that if he was beating them? And on top of that we have Perospero's comment that Marco is looking quite worn out.


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> I'm comparing a guy fighting an Admiral to a guy fighting two YCs. Two YCs are nothing compared to an Admiral.


Your saying this but these two did more damage to Marco than Kizarus thousands of Lazers did



Dunno said:


> Akainu, after taking a beating from the strongest man in the world, was bulldozing through YCs, including Marco.


By feats he only bulldozed through Curiel or whatever his name is I didn’t see him arm a songle



Dunno said:


> Marco is even losing to the two YCs, which is ridiculous for someone hoping to challenge a top tier.


Holding back is harder than trying to Kill.

If you read Naruto you can see it was pointed out at the end that Naruto was much stronger than Sasuke because he stopped Sasuke from kill him while also preventing himself from Killing Sasuke. He was strong. Enough to control the outcome. This is much much harder than just killing Sasuke.

Marco could go all out snd try to take one out but the other would be free to attack the samurai and chopper. If he didn’t have to worry about fodder he’d be able to go all out.



Dunno said:


> Top right panel, intercept -> Top left panel, no wound -> Middle panel, Clash -> Bottom right panel, Wound


Top right panel is where he intercepted Kizaru in light form and SLASHED HIM. That’s why he turned back into solid form. By the time they clash he already has the cut on his face.

Here’s a literal representation of what happened.

start at 1:10
Kizaru becomes light at 1:11(same as top right manga panel)
Ray slashes Kizaru in light form (same as top right manga panel)

1:20 Kizaru makes his sword (middle Il
1:27 shows Kizarus face mid clash and he already has the cut(same as bottom right panel)


People have talked about Ray cutting Kizarus cheek for years and everyone knows it was when he got cut in light form. Maybe you weren’t aware that Ray cut Kizaru in that panel but now you know.
Lol it was never from their clash


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## Sloan (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> He did overpower him. He clashed with Kizaru and was strong enough to push Kizaru's sword back far enough that he could scrape Kizaru's face.


He never pushed Kizaru's sword back far enough to scrape Kizaru's face.  He slashed Kizaru while he was travelling/about to travel in Yata's Mirror's Light Pathway.



He makes a Sword after that, he didn't have one before.

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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> But my argument isn't that Rayleigh is a overall superior to Kizaru. My point is that they both were superior in different categories. Rayleigh made Kizaru bleed while Kizaru made Rayleigh pant, and this means that there's no clear superiority being shown either way. The outcome of a fight between the two would be uncertain.


Fair enough, this I agree with.



Dunno said:


> He has fought multiple Admirals, and he has done more things to them than Rayleigh has, and he still hasn't been able to damage them at all.


Rayleigh barely did much to damage Kizaru though, unless you think a scratch is that significant. It makes sense for Rayleigh to draw blood since he utilises swordsmanship, while Marco is a brawler. Most of the injuries Marco inflicts on his opponents would be dealt internally, rather than being visible externally.



Dunno said:


> Marco is clearly losing. He's bleeding even though he has the power to heal any injury he takes, he's commenting on the fact that he has trouble keeping the two of the back at the same time




He never said he was in trouble. He said holding back 2 Billion beri + bounties isn't easy, and it shouldn't be lol.

Anyone who expected Marco to come out of this fight unscathed would be totally irrational. Of course he's bleeding. His regen isn't infinite, and he's fighting Kaido's 2 strongest men at the same time. 

Even then, the damage on his face isn't even that signifiant. I don't understand in what world do some of you guys think that this fight can be used as a knock against Marco. If Marco is having trouble with these 2, the same applies for them. He's blitzing them right now, *at the same time. *They can't even physically compete with him individually, and this is after putting them in a chokehold a few chapters ago, and after facing Big Mom.

I don't expect the duo to keep getting sonned like this (especially if Perospero intervenes), but Marco's combat feats are Admiral level.



Dunno said:


> and hes even telling Chopper to hurry up? He wouldn't need to do that if he was beating them? And on top of that we have Perospero's comment that Marco is looking quite worn out.



He's telling Chopper to hurry up so that the antidote can be mass-produced in order to save all their friends and the innocents who've been infected by the Ice Oni. I highly doubt Chopper's medical expertise or combat abilities would come in handy here, considering Marco is not only 5000x the stronger fighter, but likely the better doctor as well.

If Perospero has to interfere just so the Kaido Alliance can take down Marco, it only makes Marco look more impressive.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Sloan said:


> He never pushed Kizaru's sword back far enough to scrape Kizaru's face.  He slashed Kizaru while he was travelling/about to travel in Yata's Mirror's Light Pathway.
> 
> 
> 
> He makes a Sword after that, he didn't have one before.


Now his entire argument is crushed with manga evidence lol

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Beast (Mar 6, 2021)

Zoro fans should be banned from making threads.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> That is a terrible interpretation.
> 
> Rayleigh gave kizaru a clean cut that stopped him in his tracks.  Then Kizaru generated the light saber and the clash you see is the first one.
> 
> ...





killfox said:


> Your saying this but these two did more damage to Marco than Kizarus thousands of Lazers did
> 
> 
> By feats he only bulldozed through Curiel or whatever his name is I didn’t see him arm a songle
> ...





Sloan said:


> He never pushed Kizaru's sword back far enough to scrape Kizaru's face.  He slashed Kizaru while he was travelling/about to travel in Yata's Mirror's Light Pathway.
> 
> 
> 
> He makes a Sword after that, he didn't have one before.



Look at that last page. In the top left panel, he has no injury. We can see his left cheek, and it's totally white. Not a scratch on that cheek. It's only after the clash that he has a cut. Thus, we know that he got cut in the clash. This is literally what is shown in the manga. Nothing can change that.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sloan (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Look at that last page. In the top left panel, he has no injury. We can see his left cheek, and it's totally white. Not a scratch on that cheek. It's only after the clash that he has a cut. Thus, we know that he got cut in the clash.


Look at the middle panel, and zoom in.  Rayleigh's sword doesn't even reach the brim of Kizaru's nose let alone breach his cheek.


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Look at that last page. In the top left panel, he has no injury. We can see his left cheek, and it's totally white. Not a scratch on that cheek. It's only after the clash that he has a cut. Thus, we know that he got cut in the clash. This is literally what is shown in the manga. Nothing can change that.


Manga literally shows Ray get a free hit on Kizaru are you ignoring that.

So you basically saying the free hit he got on Kizaru did nothing but when he actually used a sword to clash he got hurt?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## killfox (Mar 6, 2021)

Someone anyone start at 1:10 and tell me what you see. 

This is a movement representation of what happened in the manga scene for scene.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> In addition if you've never cut yourself before, as this wasn't a deep cut it takes a little time before the blood starts flowing out of the open wound .



True.


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2021)

Sloan said:


> Look at the middle panel, and zoom in.  Rayleigh's sword doesn't even reach the brim of Kizaru's nose let alone breach his cheek.


His sword is right in front of Kizaru's face. I will grant you that we don't see the sword in contact with Kizaru's skin at that exact moment, but that's very seldom the case in One Piece.


killfox said:


> Manga literally shows Ray get a free hit on Kizaru are you ignoring that.
> 
> So you basically saying the free hit he got on Kizaru did nothing but when he actually used a sword to clash he got hurt?


I'm saying that we see in the manga that Kizaru didn't have a scratch on his cheek before the clash. I back that up with manga panels clearly showing Kizaru without a scratch on his cheek right before the clash. Rayleigh didn't hit Kizaru, he hit Kizaru's beam of light to stop him from zipping away. And we are discussing the manga, not the anime.


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## Bernkastel (Mar 6, 2021)

@Dunno Ray never overpowered Kizaru...Kizaru was chasing the SHs and Ray intercepted him mid-air scratching him in the process...when Kizaru turned his attention to Ray they were pretty evenly matched but it seemed Ray was the one that would lose the battle of stamina...


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

After reading this chapter a dozen times, Marcos performance was impressive but not that impressive.

King and Queen are fine and haven’t even entered hybrid form from named attacks from Marco.

He isn’t Admiral level but he’s clearly a step ahead of King who I put ahead of Queen so Marco is a Low Top Tier.

Also I always said that Marcos offensive wasn’t great agaisnt Top Tiers but it should be great for High High tier guys like King and Queen and it certainly seems to be.

Marcos strong but I’m still not super impressed by what he’s doing, I see people trying to give him the Admiral crown, but I seriously doubt any Admiral wouldn’t beat King and Queen together, while the chapter made it pretty obvious this wasn’t a fight Marco could win by his self, sure you could bring up him giving his healing flames to the people on the floor causing his own stamina to be reduced, but that wouldn’t really change his named attacks doing barely much to a Base King and Queen.

Maybe Marco will show more but I doubt it will be enough to tip the scales, a hybrid King and Queen should be a bitch to put down and Marco is nowhere close to putting them down even in their base forms.

Personally I feel as though to be Admiral level you have to be pretty close to beating someone like Kaido on your own, King + Queen  don’t come close to what Kaido has been dealing with on the roof having defeated 9 high tier Scabbards, some being even stronger than Jack as well as fighting Luffy, Zoro, Kid, Law, and Killer.

That’s a big ass gap people aren’t paying attention to, no way an Admiral would be THAT much weaker than Kaido especially not with an Awakening.

To put things in perspective, whatever power up Luffy gets should put him straight at Admiral level and strong enough to hurt Kaido significantly more so than what the Scabbards as a group could muster as well as more than what the R5 have accomplished as a group so far. That’s two different groups of really strong guys that would make short work of King and Queen effortlessly. And despite that,this is or should be a power up that should carry on and be useful next arc against potentially Admirals or Shanks or whoever and it won’t drastically tipped the scales in Luffys favor, so there’s a BIG gap between Low Top Tiers and Admiral level guys and it makes perfect sense to me, Luffy is a Low Top Tier and hasn’t put a dent in Kaido with Zoro and the other 3 helping. There’s no way Greenbull or Kizaru, characters that will be relative to End of Wano Luffy with say, an Awakening or G5 would be losing to a team of King and Queen.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Damn the legend is back

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Damn the legend is back


Back and much better than ever after clearing my head, I debate emotionally but after that break I had I’m coming in hot with the facts, no more emotional shit, I had to realize this is a kids manga and everyone has their own opinions.

Good to see you again my brotha.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2021)

killfox said:


> The main difference here is that Luffy was never a threat and Aokiji casually let himself get hit because he had logia intangibility and Luffy lacked Haki.
> 
> In Marcos case he actively prevented Aokiji from accomplishing his goal by forcibly removing him from the area with a single kick and sending him flying across the battle field. Marco broke one of his ice weapons and broke through his Haki to kick his real body.


Ok So he managed to kick aokiji...

wow.


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Whitebeard was on his last legs, and still proved to be stronger or equal to the Admirals at the very least. At full strength, he was their superior.
> 
> So he didn't overpower him. Also Rayleigh was panting in his fight against Kizaru; even admitted his stamina had regressed. Kizaru was also using a light saber..


No he didn’t. He got in a free shot while bloodlusted against Akainu right to his cranium and still couldn’t take him down. Than Akainu melted his brain And a third of his face.


whitebeard than hits him again while bloodlusted and splits the island with Akainu falling through a crevice. He doesn’t die though. He comes back to continue chasing Luffy (which is what he was doing when Whitebeard got that shot from behind in). Whitebeard gets two shots in and Akainu gets up to keep fighting. Akainu gets a shot in and he melts a third of his head. The only two conclusions I can take from this fight is that it was inconclusive (which is where I am) or that Akainu won since he’s the one that got in fatal shots in.

Heck, that wasn’t even their only clash. Before that Akainu casually stopped Whitebeards bisento with his foot and then countered his punch.


He’s not even the only Admiral to do it. Here’s Kizaru (who many people around here thing is noticeably weaker than his colleagues), doing the same thing to Whitebeard.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> He doesn’t die though. He comes back to continue chasing Luffy


During the time Akainu was out:

BB and crew showed up
BB and crew had a chat with Sengoku
WB fought BB and defeated him
BB+Crew killed WB
BB stole WB's fruit
Jimbei went from near the execution place to near the sea

Don't act like Akainu just shrugged it off, he was MIA for quite some time


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 6, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> During the time Akainu was out:
> 
> BB and crew showed up
> BB and crew had a chat with Sengoku
> ...


Was he dead? No. Was he unconscious? No. At best he was BFR’d. That doesn’t mean that he was weaker. It means that he was temporarily removed from the battlefield. Do you think that Whitebeard can live with what’s left of his brain exposed?

i haven’t even mentioned this, but Whitebeard was pissed and going for the kill. It’s arguable that the Admirals were holding back, to protect Marineford. When he Admirals went all out at Punk Hazard they permanently changed the climate (probably, because they’re awakened logias).

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> No he didn’t. He got in a free shot while bloodlusted against Akainu right to his cranium and still couldn’t take him down. Than Akainu melted his brain And a third of his face.
> 
> 
> whitebeard than hits him again while bloodlusted and splits the island with Akainu falling through a crevice. He doesn’t die though. He comes back to continue chasing Luffy (which is what he was doing when Whitebeard got that shot from behind in). Whitebeard gets two shots in and Akainu gets up to keep fighting. Akainu gets a shot in and he melts a third of his head. The only two conclusions I can take from this fight is that it was inconclusive (which is where I am) or that Akainu won since he’s the one that got in fatal shots in.
> ...



Whitebeard was heavily injured (and was probably dying anyways) while Akainu was basically at full HP by the time he sent Akainu down the earth.
Akainu dealt the final(fatal) blow, but he got basically KO'ed. It also took him time to recover and make his comeback.

It just shows that a dying, heavily injured WB wasn't enough to kill Akainu. If it was, I would be very disappointed in the Admirals.


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Whitebeard was heavily injured while Akainu was basically at full HP by the time he sent Akainu down the earth.
> Akainu dealt the final(fatal) blow, but he got basically KO'ed. It also took him time to recover and make his comeback.
> 
> It just shows that a dying, heavily injured WB wasn't enough to kill Akainu. If it was, I would be very disappointed in the Admirals.


KO’d means knocked out. Akainu objectively wasn’t knocked out. He was working his way back to the battlefield. Did you see the other scans where Akainu and Whitebeard clashed earlier on? Or when Kizaru (supposedly a weaker than the other Admirals casually holding down Whitebeards bisento with his foot and shooting him)?


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Was he dead? No. Was he unconscious? No. At best he was BFR’d. That doesn’t mean that he was weaker. It means that he was temporarily removed from the battlefield.


We don't know how he was, we do know he was incapable of fighting for some time.



Lee-Sensei said:


> Do you think that Whitebeard can live with what’s left of his brain exposed?


I don't think WB could live regardless of that attack, he already had 2 heart attacks and 2 magma fists to the chest lol
You know that WB already wanted to die by this point right?



Lee-Sensei said:


> i haven’t even mentioned this, but Whitebeard was pissed and going for the kill.


Yes, he was also dying and 2 heart attacks in combined with magma cheap shots



Lee-Sensei said:


> t’s arguable that the Admirals were holding back, to protect Marineford.


And the man who "has the power to destroy the world" and "could sink the island easily" was going all out was he?


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> KO’d means knocked out. Akainu objectively wasn’t knocked out. He was working his way back to the battlefield.


He literally got knocked out of the battlefield and had to work his way back. For all that intents and purposes for the sake of that "fight", he was KO'd.



Lee-Sensei said:


> Did you see the other scans where Akainu and Whitebeard clashed earlier on? Or when Kizaru (supposedly a weaker than the other Admirals casually holding down Whitebeards bisento with his foot and shooting him)?



Yes, and trust me lol. I've made a case for the Admirals in MF many times. I generally think they were evenly matched with MF WB. However, we also know that WB was compromised throughout the war. He was eating more and more damage than any of them each time before they'd match up, while leading the offence for his side too.


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 6, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> We don't know how he was, we do know he was incapable of fighting for some time.
> 
> I don't think WB could live regardless of that attack, he already had 2 heart attacks and 2 magma fists to the chest lol
> You know that WB already wanted to die by this point right?
> ...


We don’t know that at all. If you’re going to make the claim that he was unconscious, you’re going to have to back it up. The last time we saw him before his return he was cursing out Whitebeard and then he fell into a crevice. If he was unconscious, he would have drowned, because he’s a DF user and he was directly above the ocean.

I don’t remember a magma cheap shot.

Yes. Destroying the world was obvious hyperbole.


Here he threatens to destroy Marineford and Akainu stops him, because he wants to preserve it. If you want to say that he was still holding back there... fine. But if you’re going to argue that he was holding back against Akainu right after he killed his son in front of him, I have to call BS. He was trying to kill Akainu and he didn’t. Not only did he not kill Akainu. He didn’t even knock him out. He damaged him seriously and temporarily removed him from the battlefield, but it cost him a third of his head. Akainu melted it off with one punch.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> He literally got knocked out of the battlefield and had to work his way back. For all that intents and purposes for the sake of that "fight", he was KO'd.
> 
> Yes, and trust me lol. I've made a case for the Admirals in MF many times. I generally think they were evenly matched with MF WB. However, we also know that WB was compromised throughout the war. He was eating more and more damage than any of them each time before they'd match up, while leading the offence for his side too.


Again, he wasn’t. He was temporarily removed from the battlefield. If you want to call it inconclusive, that’s fair. But hot in a free shot and he still couldn’t take Akainu down. He also took a fatal blow from Akainu.

I just disagree. Whitebeard at full health was probably the strongest person in the world (although not overwhelmingly). At Marineford, I don’t see him beating any of the Admirals in a 1v1. Have you considered that they were probably holding back to preserve the island?


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## Canute87 (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Was he dead? No. Was he unconscious? No. At best he was BFR’d. That doesn’t mean that he was weaker. It means that he was temporarily removed from the battlefield. Do you think that Whitebeard can live with what’s left of his brain exposed?
> 
> i haven’t even mentioned this, but Whitebeard was pissed and going for the kill. It’s arguable that the Admirals were holding back, to protect Marineford. When he Admirals went all out at Punk Hazard they permanently changed the climate (probably, because they’re awakened logias).


whitebeard would be like this.


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Again, he wasn’t. He was temporarily removed from the battlefield.


Then we simply disagree on words, and the state of events which transpired.


Lee-Sensei said:


> If you want to call it inconclusive, that’s fair. But hot in a free shot and he still couldn’t take Akainu down. He also took a fatal blow from Akainu.


It can be called whatever it is, but Whitebeard wasn't exactly operating under fair conditions either. The author specified he took more damage throughout the war than anybody else. He was compromised the moment he left the Moby Dick and joined the battlefield, once Squard stabbed him through the chest, and potentially triggered his condition. He then spent the rest of the war taking cannonballs, being stabbed, shot, wounded, and cheap-shotted by the Admirals. None of it was fair. So, I'm sure under those circumstances, he can be forgived for taking a "cheapshot" against Akainu. This is a war after all.

Overall, I'm at best compromising that with the entire state of the War, their encounters amounted to a "draw". Whitebeard took him out of the fight and managed to beat him down. It wasn't like Akainu was even physically able to recover before Whitebeard, until he returned chapters later. Akainu ended any hope of Whitebeard's survival, true, but it was questionable if he was going to live anyways prior to that encounter, since the man was going to sacrifice his life for his crew. I don't think he cared if Akainu would've ended up killing him. Akainu ended his life while BB Pirates committed the overkill. Whitebeard knocked his ass out and came out on top in the moment. Akainu melted his face, came back, and came out on top in the long-term.



Lee-Sensei said:


> I just disagree. Whitebeard at full health was probably the strongest person in the world (although not overwhelmingly).


I agree that Whitebeard at the start of MF (full health) was probably the WSM, though not by much. Where I disagree is that there were varying degrees of his health regressing as the Admirals tangoed with him, and he was already nowhere near where he was at the start of the war, by the time that Akainu "killed" him.


Lee-Sensei said:


> At Marineford, I don’t see him beating any of the Admirals in a 1v1.


We disagree.


Lee-Sensei said:


> Have you considered that they were probably holding back to preserve the island?



Have you considered that Whitebeard was held back by heart attacks which triggered his regressing health and inability to dodge attacks? Or that he was also being held back to preserve the island so that he doesn't end up killing Ace (the person he's trying to rescue), and all the allies and crewmembers he brought?


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## Eustathios (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Then we simply disagree on words, and the state of events which transpired.
> 
> It can be called whatever it is, but Whitebeard wasn't exactly operating under fair conditions either. The author specified he took more damage throughout the war than anybody else. He was compromised the moment he left the Moby Dick and joined the battlefield, once Squard stabbed him through the chest, and potentially triggered his condition. He then spent the rest of the war taking cannonballs, being stabbed, shot, wounded, and cheap-shotted by the Admirals. None of it was fair. So, I'm sure under those circumstances, he can be forgived for taking a "cheapshot" against Akainu. This is a war after all.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure it was painfully obvious that Whitebeard was holding his power back significantly from hurting his own allies when Blackbeard nearly sent his own crew down the sea replicating Whitebeard's move against John the Giant.

His exchange with Akainu was quite close however. Akainu fell down, but not before he took half of WB's head with him.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Eustathios (Mar 6, 2021)

Marco isn't Admiral level, but he isn't that far. This chapter finally proved that not all Yonko crew are rigid copies of each other and equal in all aspects. Marco had a clear upper hand on both King and Queen_ for this chapter_. Heck, if he and Perospero didn't note that he was tired, we would've assumed he was completely dominant here. Though that is probably bound to change as the Calamities up the pressure and put him on the defensive, probably aided by Perospero. There was a reason we got a hint from both charcters on Marco's condition.


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> We don’t know that at all. If you’re going to make the claim that he was unconscious, you’re going to have to back it up.


I didn't make that claim. 



Lee-Sensei said:


> The last time we saw him before his return he was cursing out Whitebeard and then he fell into a crevice. If he was unconscious, he would have drowned, because he’s a DF user and he was directly above the ocean.


Yeah duh
He was in fetal position lol That's a defeat. He can thank BB for showing up, because WB was legit about to wreck him and the rest of MF.



Lee-Sensei said:


> I don’t remember a magma cheap shot.


You don't remember WB having a heart attack and falling on his knees and Akainu punching him while he was down? That was like the pivotal moment of the arc man



Lee-Sensei said:


> Yes. Destroying the world was obvious hyperbole.


Yes, but it's a fact that he could've sunk MF if he wanted to.



Lee-Sensei said:


> Here he threatens to destroy Marineford and Akainu stops him, because he wants to preserve it. If you want to say that he was still holding back there...


Yes, WB was going to destroy MF while Ace was in sea stone cuffs... C'mon man lol 



Lee-Sensei said:


> But if you’re going to argue that he was holding back against Akainu right after he killed his son in front of him, I have to call BS.


Yes, he was still holding back. Less than before, but still holding back. He could've sunk the island, and didn't. This is manga fact you can call BS all you want. Or do you think WB was going to kill his other thousand sons because Akainu killed one?

WB's attack on Akainu had 2 goals: 1: Kill Akainu; 2: Create a rift between his crew and the Marines. His plan wasn't to destroy MF, it was to separate his crew from the marines, and then fight the marines solo while his crew ran. He had no intention of leaving that island alive. And he didn't have that intention before fighting Akainu either.



Lee-Sensei said:


> He damaged him seriously and temporarily removed him from the battlefield


A sick, old WB, who couldn't even use CoC anymore, and had a failing CoO (And likely failing CoA too), who had just gotten 2 heart attacks and hit by Akainu while on his knees, also attacked by Aokiji and Kizaru during the war, punched Akainu twice and damaged him seriously and removed him from the battlefield.

I'm not sure how you can possibly think that Whitebeard wasn't stronger than Akainu after that lol



Lee-Sensei said:


> but it cost him a third of his head. Akainu melted it off with one punch.


Yes, a man who intended to die there and had been specifically mentioned and shown to barely be able to fight anymore took a serious damage from Akainu and kept going.


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 6, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> We don't know how he was, we do know he was incapable of fighting for some time.
> 
> I don't think WB could live regardless of that attack, he already had 2 heart attacks and 2 magma fists to the chest lol
> You know that WB already wanted to die by this point right?
> ...


We don’t know that at all. If you’re going to make the claim that he was unconscious, you’re going to have to back it up. The last time we saw him before his return he was cursing out Whitebeard and then he fell into a crevice. If he was unconscious, he would have drowned, because he’s a DF user and he was directly above the ocean.

I don’t remember a magma cheap shot.


Doflamingo said:


> Then we simply disagree on words, and the state of events which transpired.
> 
> It can be called whatever it is, but Whitebeard wasn't exactly operating under fair conditions either. The author specified he took more damage throughout the war than anybody else. He was compromised the moment he left the Moby Dick and joined the battlefield, once Squard stabbed him through the chest, and potentially triggered his condition. He then spent the rest of the war taking cannonballs, being stabbed, shot, wounded, and cheap-shotted by the Admirals. None of it was fair. So, I'm sure under those circumstances, he can be forgived for taking a "cheapshot" against Akainu. This is a war after all.
> 
> ...


Squard is relative fodder. Ive actually avoided saying that Whitebeard cheap shotted Akainu, but he literally came up from behind him when he wasn’t paying attention and gave him a bloodlusted punch to his skull. That was a cheap shot. I’m not mentioning his sickness, because his sickness isn’t relevant. Whitebeard at full health was probably stronger than the Admirals, Emperors, Mihawk and Dragon. At Marineford, he wasn’t. Or at the very least, he never proved it. And the people that think the Emperors are above the Admirals and Mihawk are probably going to be disappointed. We’ll just have to wait and see.


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## Kanki (Mar 6, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Marco is in their ballpark, in the sense that he would give any of them high-diff (except perhaps Akainu) and a run for their money. I've also always thought that he might have a chance at potentially beating the weakest one. In terms of speed, physical strength, and devil fruit mastery, he is on their level. The main difference is they have him beat in their destructive capabilities, durability, and _maybe _their endurance. Their showing against Whitebeard also gives them an edge over him, overall. The difference in their Haki is unknown, but as Marco's sailed on the WSM's ship for over 30 something years, he shouldn't be a slouch in that department compared to them, either.
> 
> There has also been nothing in the panels _they've shared_ to suggest outright superiority to him. The fact is, he's come out of his encounters with them for the most part, looking pretty even, which is something only the Emperors and Garp have shown to be able to do. Years ago, it would've been considered impossible for an Admiral to beat a Yonko's top 3 YC at once. In fact, their top 2 was generally thought to give an Admiral a solid run for their money. Katakuri and Cracker certainly didn't help further that notion, but the fact remains that Marco is taking on Kaido's top 2 at once, and is still retaining the upperhand. *Hell, next chapter, it could take a 3rd YC to intervene just to bring him down for good..*the only other characters in the series who could still survive or perform under such circumstances, would be an Admiral, and then the Yonko.
> 
> Like I said before, I didn't think Marco needed redemption, but this chapter should elevate him in some people's eyes. The Grudge War really distorted and shook his standing in the world, but it was something we know very little about.


Nah, tbf if it came down to it Marco would lose to these two. He's being a damn nuisance to them atm by hitting and not being hit himself, but not really at risk of KOing them. Obviously it's very, very impressive what he's doing anyway.


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 6, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> I didn't make that claim.
> 
> Yeah duh
> He was in fetal position lol That's a defeat. He can thank BB for showing up, because WB was legit about to wreck him and the rest of MF.
> ...


Not with the seagulls eating away at his exposed brain. You can try to get around this as much as you want, but Akainu did far more damage to Whitebeard with one punch than Whitebeard did to Akainu with two. Read the arc over. It was repeatedly stated that he wasn’t holding back. Especially after Aces death. When he split the seas when he was fighting John Giant, dont you think his weaker crew members were put at risk? The idea that he held back against Akainu after killing Ace is absurd. Bringing up his sickness is irrelevant, because that’s a factor at Marineford. We’re talking about whether or not sick Whitebeard was stronger than the Admirals and he certainly didn’t prove it. Moreover, Whitebeard clashed with all 3 of the Admirals before he’d taken serious injuries and he wasn’t able to overcome them. Akainu stopped his bisento with his foot and countered his quake punch. Aokiji froze him and avoided his bisento with hat was possibly future sight. Kizaru did that too, while stopping his bisento with one foot and shooting him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 6, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> We’re talking about whether or not sick Whitebeard was stronger than the Admirals


I misinterpreted I thought you were saying healthy WB was weaker than Akainu. Sick WB is weaker than admirals yeah.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Saitama (Mar 6, 2021)

Next chapter will be fun to discuss.


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## Mihawk (Mar 7, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Squard is relative fodder.


He's fodder but we know that in this series, under the right circumstances, anyone can incur an injury. Oda's never written the plot using simple ABC logic. Still, the fact that he got stabbed near the heart and was bleeding afterwards from his mouth shows that he was  compromised.


Lee-Sensei said:


> Ive actually avoided saying that Whitebeard cheap shotted Akainu, but he literally came up from behind him when he wasn’t paying attention and gave him a bloodlusted punch to his skull. That was a cheap shot.


Well the post all but implies it, and this is an argument that has gone both sides before. Whitebeard came from behind, but refer to my previous post. He was getting cheapshotted throughout the war, and that includes by Akainu and Kizaru.



Lee-Sensei said:


> I’m not mentioning his sickness, because his sickness isn’t relevant.


Why is it not relevant? He still proved to be equal if not superior to them even while battling his own sickness. I disagree with him being weaker than the Admirals lol.


Lee-Sensei said:


> Whitebeard at full health was probably stronger than the Admirals, Emperors, Mihawk and Dragon. At Marineford, he wasn’t. Or at the very least, he never proved it. And the people that think the Emperors are above the Admirals and Mihawk are probably going to be disappointed. We’ll just have to wait and see.



Fair enough. But I still think he showed enough in Marineford to prove that he was above the rest, and I've already made my case for why that is.

I don't think that all the Emperors are above the Admirals. I can see BM and maybe current Teach being equal to or slightly weaker than the strongest Admirals. But you have Kaido who can lift an island and elicit a reaction and fear from individuals whom have never viewed the Admirals in the same way. It should be obvious that some of the Emperors might be stronger than any of the Admirals.

IMO Whitebeard, Shanks, and Mihawk are above the Admirals, or at least most of them.

Reactions: GODA 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 7, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> He's fodder but we know that in this series, under the right circumstances, anyone can incur an injury. Oda's never written the plot using simple ABC logic. Still, the fact that he got stabbed near the heart and was bleeding afterwards from his mouth shows that he was  compromised.
> 
> Well the post all but implies it, and this is an argument that has gone both sides before. Whitebeard came from behind, but refer to my previous post. He was getting cheapshotted throughout the war, and that includes by Akainu and Kizaru.
> 
> ...


I don’t remember Kizaru cheap shooting him. Whitebeard was punched from the front in a fight with Akainu. He had a short heart attack, but that’s not really relevant. He was sick. That’s established. And it’s a factor in this fight. Sick Whitebeard wasn’t stronger than the Admirals. Or at the very least, he never proved it.

I never said they couldn’t be stronger. The Admirals could be stronger too. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you said that Marco was likely close to the Admirals, but a little weaker. Yet in a combined Haki attack with Vista against Akainu, he managed to shake them off. Then he countered every Commander, except for Jozu and Crocodile by himself. This was after he’d taken two quake fists from a bloodlusted Whitebeard. One being a cheap shot to his head.

Kaido is probably going to be beaten in this arc while Mihawk, Blackbeard and Akainu are being saved for the end of the series. If Akainu is Luffy’s last big fight (which is very likely), I can’t see him being weaker than Mihawk. He’d at least have to be at the same level.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pagn6 (Mar 7, 2021)

Marco is not as strong as an admiral. The admirals have consistently been portrayed in the story as people who are in the same ballpark of the emperors, in terms of strenght.

Those guys (emperors/admirals) consider people of the caliber of Marco as little more than an annoyance, see the reaction of Akainu at the combined attack of Marco and Vista.

Now you also think that Marco is as strong as an emperor, since you view him as "admiral level"?

I do agree that he has easily superior portrayal than people like Katakuri and King though (I very much doubt that King will receive a similar portrayal anyway, at the end of the day). Marco is a monster and I am big fan of his.

If anything, what Marco is doing gives even further hype to the admirals, whose strenght is still underrated by many people.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 7, 2021)

From what we've seen from the new chapter, Marco is not even CLOSE to Admirals.
Marco stalled King + Queen for about 40 min maybe, and he's all bloodied up looking exhausted to the point Perospero noticed from a mile away.
Now King + Queen together I'd say is weaker than the 9 Scabbards but stronger than Sulong Neko + Inu, significant below Admiral level, since 9 Scabbards lost to Kaido by himself.
Marco only kept up for about 40 min before getting exhausted, only getting 4 hits in(3 of them doing damage), since King and Queen looks completely fine when the first appeared in the chapter.
King + Queen I'd say is Yonko Vice Captain level ish(Like Beckmann maybe?), Marco getting tired after 40 min, an Admiral would prob put him in a bad condition in 20 min or so based off this. But Admirals can fight each other for 10 days.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Corax (Mar 7, 2021)

This feat doesn't put Marco on solid top tier lvl. I think Kaido can beat his 3 commanders low. to mid. Mid if King+Jack+Queen are around or a bit stronger than 9 Scabbards combined. Even victory over King+Queen (at least higher than mid.) wouldn't put a character on a solid top tier lvl.


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 7, 2021)

GucciBandana said:


> From what we've seen from the new chapter, Marco is not even CLOSE to Admirals.
> Marco stalled King + Queen for about 40 min maybe, and he's all bloodied up looking exhausted to the point Perospero noticed from a mile away.
> Now King + Queen together I'd say is weaker than the 9 Scabbards but stronger than Sulong Neko + Inu, significant below Admiral level, since 9 Scabbards lost to Kaido by himself.
> Marco only kept up for about 40 min before getting exhausted, only getting 4 hits in(3 of them doing damage), since King and Queen looks completely fine when the first appeared in the chapter.
> King + Queen I'd say is Yonko Vice Captain level ish(Like Beckmann maybe?), Marco getting tired after 40 min, an Admiral would prob put him in a bad condition in 20 min or so based off this. But Admirals can fight each other for 10 days.


This is all based on the assumption that Kaido could basically fodderize King and Queen, and not take any damage from them. I don't buy it.

And let's not get carried away with Marco's exhaustion either, he is being forced to push his limits because he's fighting two people at once. Marco should be able to fight for 10 days, it just depends who he is fighting. Rookie Ace vs Jimbei lasted 5 days, Jack vs the Dukes lasted 5 days, Cracker and Katakuri fought for 10 hours straight.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rasendori (Mar 7, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> This is all based on the assumption that Kaido could basically fodderize King and Queen, and not take any damage from them. I don't buy it.
> 
> And let's not get carried away with Marco's exhaustion either, he is being forced to push his limits because he's fighting two people at once. Marco should be able to fight for 10 days, it just depends who he is fighting. Rookie Ace vs Jimbei lasted 5 days, Jack vs the Dukes lasted 5 days, Cracker and Katakuri fought for 10 hours straight.


Agreed. Also he's *healing multiple people on the battlefield at the same time *- add that to his regeneration has limits and you get a tired Marco. 

Oda is making it clear that Marco has the upper hand against a Yonkou 1 and 2 while HANDICAPPED!


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## GucciBandana (Mar 7, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> This is all based on the assumption that Kaido could basically fodderize King and Queen, and not take any damage from them. I don't buy it.
> 
> And let's not get carried away with Marco's exhaustion either, he is being forced to push his limits because he's fighting two people at once. Marco should be able to fight for 10 days, it just depends who he is fighting. Rookie Ace vs Jimbei lasted 5 days, Jack vs the Dukes lasted 5 days, Cracker and Katakuri fought for 10 hours straight.



Kaido maybe would take damage from King and Queen, but that's a bit of a stretch, since King hurt RS Sanji just a bit with a beak charge, and Queen's Brachio Bomber barely did anything to BM.
King and Queen can stall Kaido for a bit though, so not fodderized. You actually think King and Queen would cause a big problem for Kaido??

I'm sure Marco can fight for 10 days if you keep throwing fodders at him, but against K + Q level enemy, 40 min and he pants hard.
Admirals fight for 10 days against each other, Aokiji is stronger than King + Queen, therefore puts more pressure, and Akainu fights that for 10 days.


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 7, 2021)

Rasendori said:


> Agreed. Also he's *healing multiple people on the battlefield at the same time *- add that to his regeneration has limits and you get a tired Marco.
> 
> Oda is making it clear that Marco has the upper hand against a Yonkou 1 and 2 while HANDICAPPED!


People are underestimating how hard fighting two people at once is. Oda is giving Marco the upper hand, but by making him visibly tired not saying that King and Queen are way below him. Just imagine Luffy fighting Jimbei and Sanji at the same time.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 7, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> People are underestimating how hard fighting two people at once is. Oda is giving Marco the upper hand, but by making him visibly tired not saying that King and Queen are way below him. Just imagine Luffy fighting Jimbei and Sanji at the same time.



No need to imagine... Go look at Law fighting Fujitora + Doflamingo, in Greenbit, then on the Sunny.


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 7, 2021)

GucciBandana said:


> Kaido maybe would take damage from King and Queen, but that's a bit of a stretch, since King hurt RS Sanji just a bit with a beak charge, and *Queen's Brachio Bomber barely did anything to BM.*


Wtf? Queen knocked out Big Mom with that. They would undoubtedly do damage, and we see that the Scabbards were hitting Kaido, they just weren't doing anything. If Kaido fought both K/Q at once, he wouldn't get out unscathed.


GucciBandana said:


> King and Queen can stall Kaido for a bit though, so not fodderized. You actually think King and Queen would cause a big problem for Kaido??


I think they would. We are going to see how strong K/Q are, and I think they will be Sanji/Zoro's opponents, and then Marco fighting them both at once will look all the more impressive. Hell, we might even get Marco doing something more impressive in the coming chapters that will silence his doubters once and for all.


GucciBandana said:


> I'm sure Marco can fight for 10 days if you keep throwing fodders at him, but against K + Q level enemy, 40 min and he pants hard.
> Admirals fight for 10 days against each other, Aokiji is stronger than King + Queen, therefore puts more pressure, and Akainu fights that for 10 days.


So Aokiji wouldn't be tired at all from fighting K/Q for 40 min? Where's your evidence of that?


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 7, 2021)

GucciBandana said:


> No need to imagine... Go look at Law fighting Fujitora + Doflamingo, in Greenbit, then on the Sunny.


Umm, I may be missing the comparison, but Law is outmatched by both of those people on their own.


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## Corax (Mar 7, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> This is all based on the assumption that Kaido could basically fodderize King and Queen, and not take any damage from them. I don't buy it.
> 
> And let's not get carried away with Marco's exhaustion either, he is being forced to push his limits because he's fighting two people at once. Marco should be able to fight for 10 days, it just depends who he is fighting. Rookie Ace vs Jimbei lasted 5 days, Jack vs the Dukes lasted 5 days, Cracker and Katakuri fought for 10 hours straight.


I am quite sure Kaido at very worst can mid. diff King+Queen. Hybrid likely even low diff. Even if some think that let's say Kaido is the strongest top tier he isn't too far away from BM or Akainu for example. BM alone without any weapons overpowered Queen quite easily.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 7, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Wtf? Queen knocked out Big Mom with that. They would undoubtedly do damage, and we see that the Scabbards were hitting Kaido, they just weren't doing anything. If Kaido fought both K/Q at once, he wouldn't get out unscathed.



BM fell asleep after getting her memories back. Queen did that with a trap too.
I can see King and Queen damage Kaido the same way Sulong Inu stabs Kaido, Sulong Neko claws Kaido, but that's about it.




Shunsuiju said:


> I think they would. We are going to see how strong K/Q are, and I think they will be Sanji/Zoro's opponents, and then Marco fighting them both at once will look all the more impressive. Hell, we might even get Marco doing something more impressive in the coming chapters that will silence his doubters once and for all.
> 
> So Aokiji wouldn't be tired at all from fighting K/Q for 40 min? Where's your evidence of that?



Zoro is rooftop gang, K/Q are getting quickly taken care of by combined force from New Gen, doesn't matter who, but Sanji, Yamato, Drake, Hawkins, even Apoo, are in the conversation for that. I mean like real damage that will put them down, not like Marco's little scratches this chapter.
Marco is doing... normal things. In the new chapter he'd be lucky if he gets to take down Perospero, which I doubt, since Marco fully said he's taking a back seat to the New Gen, that might still be Wanda and Carrot's job but with Marco's aid.
You do realize that Marco is getting Hyogoro treatment right? Not literally, not like he's dying, but he's done, out of the frontline, soon.




Shunsuiju said:


> Umm, I may be missing the comparison, but Law is outmatched by both of those people on their own.



yeah, but Law still fought them for a while 1 on 2, did you not read the Dressrosa arc?


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## OG sama (Mar 7, 2021)

K and Q combined would get murked by the Rooftop 5 let alone the Scabbards + rooftop 5 lol.

And Kaido took the scabbards complete assault as well as everything the rooftop 5 have thrown at him thus far.....

K and Q absolutely get decimated by Kaido in a 1v2.


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## Shunsuiju (Mar 7, 2021)

Sometimes you just got to wait and see.


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## Jo Ndule (Mar 7, 2021)

Another useless wank

Anyone can fight casual ycs who can talk on the phone, target other fighters
Who aren't using named moves or their best forms

Marco is exhausted by bullets and beams
Dealt literally 1% of damage on both

Needs 2 hits to make basevking bleed
Couldn't push zoan Queen back

Marco is still >=< King.

This is typical Oda's writing,  hyping someone weaker before he loses.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 8, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> But you have Kaido who can lift an island and elicit a reaction and fear from individuals whom have never viewed the Admirals in the same way. It should be obvious that some of the Emperors might be stronger than any of the Admirals.


Kaido gets hyped by fodders no top tier has hyped him up not even big meme, lifting an island does nothing otherwise he would've just dropped it while fighting meme lol, that feat is hype but when fuji does it everyone just walks past it

Reactions: Like 1


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## GucciBandana (Mar 8, 2021)

Jo Ndule said:


> Another useless wank
> 
> Anyone can fight casual ycs who can talk on the phone, target other fighters
> Who aren't using named moves or their best forms
> ...




Oda hyped Law the same way against Fujitora and Doflamingo, Law was saving Sanji(Like Marco saves Hyo), countering Fuji meteor, use it to destroy Fuji's ship(Like Marco use his wing to attack King, then knee him), and blocking Doflamingo's Overheat(Like Marco kicking Queen).
Then he took a big L on the bridge, and Marco will too.



GreenEggsAHam said:


> Kaido gets hyped by fodders no top tier has hyped him up not even big meme, lifting an island does nothing otherwise he would've just dropped it while fighting meme lol, that feat is hype but when fuji does it everyone just walks past it



It's ridiculous to me that when a Yonko or a YC does something, people hype it to the max, but when somebody else does something similar, nobody talks about it.

Fuji's debris feat is way more impressive than Kaido lifting Onigashima, Onigashima based off the layout,  can't be much bigger than King's plateau in Dressrosa, which is a bit bigger than Pica Golem, that makes Dressrosa much much larger than Onigashima, and Fuji lifted the debris from the entire island, making Pica's lower body look tiny among them. A wayyy better weight lifting feat than Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 8, 2021)

GucciBandana said:


> A wayyy better weight lifting feat than Kaido.


yeah, Kaido feat isn't even a combat feat he cant use it for a fight at all lol


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