# HM Jiraiya vs Itachi



## Ra (Oct 11, 2009)

Restrictions: None

Location: Where killerbee fought

Character: IC

Knowledge: Both have no knowledge of each other abilities. (No sharingan knowledge for Jiraiya)

Distance 60 meters.

I'll be active in this thread


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 11, 2009)

Long ago I would of said they would have been equals however I have recently changed my opinion to favor Jiraiya.

We know that jiraiya sage chakra is constantly changing and etc. Let alone he has ma + pa there pumping chakra into his system and can break him out of a genjutsu. Jiraiya is a master of controlling chakra to boot. Ill give the advantage here to Jiraiya over genjutsu any day. Plus there is already enough evidence in the recent chapters to go into further detail.

Now comes Amaterasu. This is where prviously i thought Jiraiya would have slight chance of getting past. However with the recent chapters Jiraiya in HM is more then capable of dealing with Amaterasu with moderate difficulty through speed and jutsus. Amaterasu obviously is not so lethal as we all thought. 

Question is if jiraiya can kill Itachi before Susanoo...Who the hell knows


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## Ra (Oct 11, 2009)

> We know that jiraiya sage chakra is constantly changing and etc. Let alone he has ma + pa there pumping chakra into his system and can break him out of a genjutsu. Jiraiya is a master of controlling chakra to boot. Ill give the advantage here to Jiraiya over genjutsu any day. Plus there is already enough evidence in the recent chapters to go into further detail.



He doesn't instantly break out, and itachi has shown the ability to cast jutsu and the opponent go on unaware he's trapped in a genjutsu, and proceeds to kill himself. Also Itachi is known for casting layered genjutsu, so It's easy for jiraiya to break out one genjutsu and assume he's not trapped in another.

In tsukuyomi case he's not breaking out.



> Now comes Amaterasu. This is where prviously i thought Jiraiya would have slight chance of getting past. However with the recent chapters Jiraiya in HM is more then capable of dealing with Amaterasu with moderate difficulty through speed and jutsus. Amaterasu obviously is not so lethal as we all thought.



Speed no and what jutsus?

Also whose using the amaterasu? Itachi amirite? 

It was lethal enough to burn off raikage arm, and it was lethal enough to beat hachibi.


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## Soul (Oct 11, 2009)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Long ago I would of said they would have been equals however I have recently changed my opinion to favor Jiraiya.
> 
> We know that jiraiya sage chakra is constantly changing and etc. Let alone he has ma + pa there pumping chakra into his system and can break him out of a genjutsu. Jiraiya is a master of controlling chakra to boot. Ill give the advantage here to Jiraiya over genjutsu any day. Plus there is already enough evidence in the recent chapters to go into further detail.



Can you show me the evidence?
I don't remember that in recent chapters.



> Question is if jiraiya can kill Itachi before Susanoo...Who the hell knows



Both of us know that Itachi is quite smart; even if the state of mind is In Character he won't hesitate to use Susano'o if he thinks that he is in danger.

And what about Tsukuyomi?
You think that your previous argument would also save Jiraiya from Tsukuyomi?

I am leaning towards Itachi with hard difficulty; Susano'o will make the difference.



Inu-Sennin said:


> HM jiraiya wins simple because this situation he starts in it. had this match started with jiraiya in base, there maybe a better chance for itachi.
> 
> his speed is jiraiya tier while in HM. the toads use frog call. jiraiya then pwns itachi with a super duper fatass rasengan...



And then, Itachi uses Susano'o and seals Jiraiya.
If Itachi could react to Kirin, I am sure as hell as he can react to Chou Oodama Rasengan.


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## Ra (Oct 11, 2009)

> HM jiraiya wins simple because this situation he starts in it. had this match started with jiraiya in base, there maybe a better chance for itachi.



:lolkubo



> his speed is jiraiya tier while in HM. the toads use frog call. jiraiya then pwns itachi with a super duper fatass rasengan.



Rasengan won't kill itachi, if it hit's him susanoo will protect him. Also if jiraiya acts reckless and use a "super duper fatass rasengan" the jutsu could be used on himself and result in his death thanks to itachi genjutsu. 

See: Deidara nearly killing himself.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 11, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> He doesn't instantly break out, and itachi has shown the ability to cast jutsu and the opponent go on unaware he's trapped in a genjutsu, and proceeds to kill himself. Also Itachi is known for casting layered genjutsu, so It's easy for jiraiya to break out one genjutsu and assume he's not trapped in another.
> 
> In tsukuyomi case he's not breaking out.



And Genjutsu does not kill. The user still has to apply the finishing blow. Let alone Tsukuyomi effects Itachi after he uses it leaving a slight opeining for an attack. Do you think ma + pa are just going to stand there? All the ninja shown traped in genjtusu that don't realize have been fodder or have basic genjutsu defense(aka Naruto). As you say tsukuyomi would affect jiraiya im saying it wont kill him. AKA kill him not effect him.





> Speed no and what jutsus?
> 
> Also whose using the amaterasu? Itachi amirite?
> 
> It was lethal enough to burn off raikage arm, and it was lethal enough to beat hachibi.



Speed wise he is capable. Is HM as fast as raiakage with his raiton shroud? Probably not but hes still faster then 95% of shiniobi in HM. It was raikage choice to sacrifice his hand. We already knew it was lethal but not instantaneous lethal. 

Amaterasu did not beat Hachibi. It was a plan to escape. Lets just say he gets an A+ for a great performance on faking


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## ? (Oct 11, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> And then, Itachi uses Susano'o and seals Jiraiya.
> If Itachi could react to Kirin, I am sure as hell as he can react to Chou Oodama Rasengan.





how can he use susanoo when he's paralyzed from frog call?
hell he can really one shot him with swamp of the underworld itachi has no way to escape.



GrandKitaro777 said:


> :lolkubo





> Rasengan won't kill itachi, if it hit's him susanoo will protect him. Also if jiraiya acts reckless and use a "super duper fatass rasengan" the jutsu could be used on himself and result in his death thanks to itachi genjutsu.
> 
> See: Deidara nearly killing himself.



susanoo won't protect him if he's already paralyzed from frog call...sheesh.


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## Dman (Oct 11, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> :lolkubo
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this exactly


itachi wins with difficulty


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## Ra (Oct 11, 2009)

> And Genjutsu does not kill.



A person outside the genjutsu can, which is itachi.



> Let alone Tsukuyomi effects Itachi after he uses it leaving a slight opeining for an attack.



The user would be dead after itachi is done, so itachi will enjoy the consequences of tsukuyomi in peace.



> Do you think ma + pa are just going to stand there?



They wouldn't break the genjutsu if they don't realize Jiraiya is inside a genjutsu, and jiraiya as reckless as he is will kill himself. Itachi exist both outside the genjutsu and inside.



> All the ninja shown traped in genjtusu that don't realize have been fodder or have basic genjutsu defense(aka Naruto).



So jiraiya somehow notice he's inside a finger genjutsu? This "somehow" needs to be define.



> As you say tsukuyomi would affect jiraiya im saying it wont.



Obvious reasons indicate that 98% percent of ninjas don't break out. The burden of proof of jiraiya breaking out is on you.



> *Speed wise he is capable.* Is HM as fast as raiakage with his raiton shroud? Probably not but hes still faster then 95% of shiniobi in HM.



Proof.



> Probably not but hes still faster then 95% of shiniobi in HM.



Why does this matter? Considering the fact he hasn't shown speed feats that is capable of out speeding the sharingan sight.



> It was raikage choice to sacrifice his hand. We already knew it was lethal but not instantaneous lethal.



Explain that to hachibi and madara that nearly got obliterated by it.



> Amaterasu did not beat Hachibi. It was a plan to escape. Lets just say he gets an A+ for a great performance on faking



If sasuke didn't stop amaterasu, everything of hachibi would have been disintegrated, which means killerbee never would have escaped.


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## Soul (Oct 11, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> how can he use susanoo when he's paralyzed from frog call?



Then how can Jiraiya use Frog Song when it needs prep time????
Itachi won't let him escape as Pain did.



> hell he can really one shot him with swamp of the underworld itachi has no way to escape.



Itachi can use a bunshin that helps him to escape.
Yomi Numa isn't a one hit kill move.


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## Ra (Oct 11, 2009)

> how can he use susanoo when he's paralyzed from frog call?
> hell he can really one shot him with swamp of the underworld itachi has no way to escape.



Ninja's can walk on liquid.


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## ? (Oct 11, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Then how can Jiraiya use Frog Song when it needs prep time????
> Itachi won't let him escape as Pain did.


, i said frog call not frog song. two different jutsu.




> Itachi can use a bunshin that helps him to escape.
> Yomi Numa isn't a one hit kill move.


, how can a bunshin help him escape from the jutsu when he will already be trapped in the swamp. it is a one hit move if you don't have the strength to escape. which itachi doesn't.



GrandKitaro777 said:


> Ninja's can walk on liquid.


. nice try, but this isn't some stable lake, the jutsu is sinking them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 11, 2009)

We've debated this over and over again, and I don't think much has changed since then, except for our knowledge on what Susano'o can and cannot do and I expect that to change the opinion even the strict Jiraiya fans.  

Even if you assume that Jiraiya can deal with genjutsu, Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu somehow, there is no way he can deal with Susano'o. 
Its over we won


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## Dante (Oct 11, 2009)

Jiraiya will eventually get Tsukiyomi'd, Itachi wins


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## Soul (Oct 11, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> , i said frog call not frog song. two different jutsu.



Jiraiya can't mantain Sennin Moodo without ma and pa.



> , how can a bunshin help him escape from the jutsu when he will already be trapped in the swamp. it is a one hit move if you don't have the strength to escape. which itachi doesn't.



Something like this.

humble act of Hiashi,
humble act of Hiashi,

Also, Itachi has Crow Bunshins {Karasu bunshins}; those could help him too.


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## ? (Oct 11, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Jiraiya can't mantain Sennin Moodo without ma and pa


.
since when  couldn't they use jutsu while attached to him?





> Something like this.
> 
> Here's Sasori going for the kill.
> Here's Sasori going for the kill.
> ...


what does that prove? shadow clones wont help him in a situation like that one.karasu bunshins wont work either because jiraya can make the swamp as big as his chakra allows it. how does he escape once he makes shadow clones?


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## Soul (Oct 11, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> since when couldn't they use jutsu while attached to him?



Jiraiya would have to get close, which would give Itachi the chance to use Sharingan Genjutsu to delay jiraiya, as he doesbn't has knowledge.



> what does that prove? shadow clones wont help him in a situation like that one.karasu bunshins wont work either because jiraya can make the swamp as big as his chakra allows it. how does he escape once he makes shadow clones?



The clones would pull him out of the Swamp.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 11, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> A person outside the genjutsu can, which is itachi.



Well duh...He is the one using it so he has to deal the finishing blow in this fight....Like I said ma+ pa wont let that happen or any other frogs jiraiya has summoned





> The user would be dead after itachi is done, so itachi will enjoy the consequences of tsukuyomi in peace.


 Once again Genjutsus does not kill.



> They wouldn't break the genjutsu if they don't realize Jiraiya is inside a genjutsu, and jiraiya as reckless as he is will kill himself. Itachi exist both outside the genjutsu and inside.



Well obviously no one is going to break out of a genjutsu if they dont realize there in one....ma + pa would realize instantly once his chakra is thrown out of wack. Plus Jiraiya is a master of chakra control and let alone Sage Chakra is constantly changing

How wouldnt Itachi excel inside his own genjutus? What is he gonna trip over a rock and impale himself on a stick in his own genjutus? confused



> Obvious reasons indicate that 98% percent of ninjas don't break out. The burden of proof of jiraiya breaking out is on you.



Yes since the Uchiha clan were senju dogs during the great wars. If there so godly Uchiha would be gods of the entire naruto verse which they are not. Obviously not all sharingan genjutsu is godly or any mere Uchiha would be unstoppable. There were only a select few ninja of the Uchiha clan that had unordinary power




> Proof.



Just reread the pein/Jiraiya fight. 




> Why does this matter? Considering the fact he hasn't shown speed feats that is capable of out speeding the sharingan sight.



You dont have to have speed feats that the sharingan cant see to beat a sharingan user. It is the bodies movement that is the limiting factor. Jiraiya in HM probably has those speed feats to bypass the sharingan anyways. Once again reread




> Explain that to hachibi and madara that nearly got obliterated by it.



Hachibi played a TRICK on sasuke. It was a plan to escape. You gotta act to make something look good.

Madara was pretty much in point blank range. Closer then the so called 5m and escaped it without a burnt piece of hair. 

So where is this proof of them getting obliterated? all i see them doing is LOL at it



> If sasuke didn't stop amaterasu, everything of hachibi would have been disintegrated, which means killerbee never would have escaped.



Umm no. Bee already escaped. Whats it going to do keep burning a detached tenticle which it was already going to do in the first place? Sauske did that to save Karin


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## Sadgoob (Oct 11, 2009)

*things to consider*

_1. Sharingan Genjutsu works on multiple people/summons at once
2. Tsukiyomi *can* kill if Itachi wants it to.
2. Itachi's Amatarasu isn't Sasuke's Amatarasu
3. Jiraiya has no knowledge of Susano
4. Jiraiya was staring straight in Itachi's eyes in their manga encounter
5. Itachi is at least as fast as HM Jiraiya_


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 11, 2009)

Illusory said:


> *things to consider*
> 
> _1. Sharingan Genjutsu works on multiple people/summons at once
> 2. Tsukiyomi *can* kill if Itachi wants it to.
> ...



1)Tsukiyomi breaks down the opponents "mental state" if you wanna call it that. IF a person is weak it has the ability to kill them from exhausten
2)Sasuke is arguably better at Amatarasu then Itachi is now
3) Itachi has no knowledge of HM or any of its abilities
4)Jiraiya was staring at Itachi eyes...Why whould he do that if he knows Itachi is from the Uchiha clan and genjutsu is his specialty? Makes me think he has obvious counters
5) Itachi as fast as HM. I dont think so

Frog song would end this match if needed


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## David (Oct 11, 2009)

Complete_Ownage said:


> And Genjutsu does not kill. The user still has to apply the finishing blow. Let alone Tsukuyomi effects Itachi after he uses it leaving a slight opeining for an attack. Do you think ma + pa are just going to stand there? All the ninja shown traped in genjtusu that don't realize have been fodder or have basic genjutsu defense(aka Naruto). As you say tsukuyomi would affect jiraiya im saying it wont kill him. AKA kill him not effect him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lmfao your sig is win!


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## Sadgoob (Oct 11, 2009)

Complete_Ownage said:


> 1)Tsukiyomi breaks down the opponents "mental state" if you wanna call it that. IF a person is weak it has the ability to kill them from exhausten
> 2)Sasuke is arguably better at Amatarasu then Itachi is now
> 3) Itachi has no knowledge of HM or any of its abilities
> 4)Jiraiya was staring at Itachi eyes...Why whould he do that if he knows Itachi is from the Uchiha clan and genjutsu is his specialty? Makes me think he has obvious counters
> ...



Read my thread in the library please and you'll likely change your mind on a few points. Additionally, there isn't much to get about HM other than Frog Song and I should think that a Genjutsu specialist would know what is up. In contrast, no knowledge of the MS is lethal and assuming that Jiraiya has a counter for both Tsukiyomi and Amatarasu is one hell of a baseless assumption.


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## Federer (Oct 11, 2009)

Complete_Ownage said:


> 1)Tsukiyomi breaks down the opponents "mental state" if you wanna call it that. IF a person is weak it has the ability to kill them from exhausten
> 2)Sasuke is arguably better at Amatarasu then Itachi is now
> 3) Itachi has no knowledge of HM or any of its abilities
> 4)Jiraiya was staring at Itachi eyes...Why whould he do that if he knows Itachi is from the Uchiha clan and genjutsu is his specialty? Makes me think he has obvious counters
> ...



I missed Jiraiya's speed feats where he was faster than the Sharingan. 

As far as I can tell, pretty much every Pain body could keep up with HM Jiraiya, Naruto could hang on with Tendou and so did Kakashi. Yet Itachi, who's seal formation surpassed the Sharingan, who's so fast that he created a clone in mid-air and suprised Sasuke, who has imo much better speed feats than HM Jiraiya. 

Since Ma and Pa are fused with Jiraiya, they cannot help him, if they are all covered with Amaterasu. HM Jiraiya has not shown the particular speed to dodge an Amaterasu in mid-air, only the Raikage, who's reflexes are above the sharingan has done it. The Sharingan could still keep up with Rare atto B. Who's speed feats are once again above HM Jiraiya. 

This thread has been done, there was an official thread and Itachi won, people should deal with it. There were great counters from both sides, but Itachi should win this by a tiny edge. 

And using a genjutsu against the no. 1 genjutsu master of this manga, is a very believable argument..............NOT. 
Even if it comes down to Susano'o, Jiraiya has no jutsu to defeat it and no the Swamp of the Underworld is not gonna work.


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## Shizune (Oct 11, 2009)

The Sharingan's worst enemy is summons, which Jiraiya is absolutely full of. Even if he has no knowledge on Itachi he still knows all about the Sharingan, and upon seeing it will be prepared to not make eye contact and overwhelm him with summons.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 11, 2009)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> I missed Jiraiya's speed feats where he was faster than the Sharingan.
> 
> As far as I can tell, pretty much every Pain body could keep up with HM Jiraiya, Naruto could hang on with Tendou and so did Kakashi. Yet Itachi, who's seal formation surpassed the Sharingan, who's so fast that he created a clone in mid-air and suprised Sasuke, who has imo much better speed feats than HM Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



Just a few quick things highlighted in red...Its a pain to type and do all this on the iphone

1)Its great when you have something called shared vision. Once Jiraiya got in HM he beat them in taijutsu. 

2)Once again the sharingan kept up with  Rare atto however it is the bodies factor that is the limitation. HM Jiraiya has feats faster then  Rare atto from Bee. Also this is just not 1v1,Itachi has to deal with summons and ma+pa. HE may be incredibly fast however he has to deal with multiple opponents and etc

3) Just because a thread was done and Itachi won by a slight margin has no factor on the outcome of a match. There have been numerous threads on favorite character and on this forum the uchiha bros pretty much outranked everybody 4 to 1 if i recall correctly. This just shows what fan base is biggest and as we all know this forum is a laughing stock among others for Uchiha tards.

4)The frong song Genjutsu is nothing similar to sharingan or normal genjutsu by any means. Unless Itachi is deaf there is no way around this.

5)Proof The swamp wont work on Susanno? O wait there is non its all a theory


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## Ra (Oct 11, 2009)

> Well duh...He is the one using it so he has to deal the finishing blow in this fight....Like I said ma+ pa wont let that happen or any other frogs jiraiya has summoned



Ma + Pa can't do anything if Itachi use Grand Fireball jutsu, they are attached to jiraiya, so they can't move and they have nothing in their repertoire to fight it.

Summary: Itachi cast genjutsu with finger, jiraiya oesn't realize he's in a genjutsu and itachi outside the genjutsu kill him with ma and pa with grand fire ball jutsu. Boss summons are OOC to summon, if another ninja doesn't summon a boss summon.

Ma + Pa can't do anything.



> Once again Genjutsus does not kill.



Tsukuyomi does.



> Well obviously no one is going to break out of a genjutsu if they dont realize there in one....ma + pa would realize instantly once his chakra is thrown out of wack. Plus Jiraiya is a master of chakra control and let alone Sage Chakra is constantly changing



They won't break the genjutsu instantly and ma + pa still have to deal with itachi outside the genjutsu.

And how does "sage chakra constantly changing" ruin itachi's genjutsu?



> Yes since the Uchiha clan were senju dogs during the great wars. If there so godly Uchiha would be gods of the entire naruto verse which they are not. Obviously not all sharingan genjutsu is godly or any mere Uchiha would be unstoppable. There were only a select few ninja of the Uchiha clan that had unordinary power



You must not understand my statement. 98% of ninja's don't break out of tsukuyomi.



> Just reread the pein/Jiraiya fight.



Wow he shunshin to pain, you make it seem he was going gate speeds or speeds faster than the sharingan can follow. We're deviating from the point; If the sharingan can follow jiraiya speed amaterasu will kill jiraiya no questions asked.



> You dont have to have speed feats that the sharingan cant see to beat a sharingan user. It is the bodies movement that is the limiting factor. *Jiraiya in HM probably has those speed feats to bypass the sharingan anyways*. Once again reread



Speculation isn't allowed in the battledome.



> Hachibi played a TRICK on sasuke. It was a plan to escape. You gotta act to make something look good.



So, hachibi was acting like he was screaming. 



> Madara was pretty much in point blank range. Closer then the so called 5m and escaped it without a burnt piece of hair.
> 
> So where is this proof of them getting obliterated? all i see them doing is LOL at it



When did I say they got obliterated? I think I said "they nearly got obliterated."

The reason why I brought madara up because he said he would have been killed by amaterasu, had itachi not known his secret.


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## King Of Gamesxx (Oct 11, 2009)

Itachi should take this, because unlike the previous thread on Jiraiya vs Itachi the starting distance isn't 100m, only 60m. This should not allow Jiraiya any time to summon. Jiraiya however starts off in sage mode, so Ma and Pa are on him already right?


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 12, 2009)

Jiraiya rhapes starting in HM, if jiraiya starts in base this is a fight.

HM taijutsu>itachis
HM strength>itachis
HM speed>itachis
HM reflexes>=itachis(ma and pa included so its pretty much 2 sage toads vs sharingan)
HM ninjutsu>>>Itachi
Frog song>tsukiomi
itachis basic genjutsu>jiraiyas basic genjutsu
battle cautousness and smarts jiraiya>=itachi(itachi is phsycologically smart, he has shown no strategie in fights at all).

things itachi has that can kill jiraiya
Susanoo
Tsukiomi(maybe, jiraiya is much stronger than kakashi mentally)
(amaterasu was nerfed to shit so no, he has elemental seal anyways)

Things HM jiraiya has that can kill itachi
kick
punch
rasengan
frog song
hair needle barrage
swamp of the underworld
pa or ma's taijutsu
deep fryer


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## ? (Oct 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Jiraiya would have to get close, which would give Itachi the chance to use Sharingan Genjutsu to delay jiraiya, as he doesbn't has knowledge.


you don't need to be close for frog call to work.




> The clones would pull him out of the Swamp.



how can they when they'll be in the swamp too?


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## Love. (Oct 12, 2009)

i was leaning towards jiraiya at the beggining, then i read some of the comments.


Genjutsu from itachi is on a whole new level, it has different 'layers' of it. You may think youve escaped it but your still in it. Plus with the genjutsu he can make jiraiya kill himself with his big ass rasengans.



and itachi has susano-o against jiraiya which can easily block all the massive rasengans/tajitsu attacks. 

Though with frog song and etc i really cant call this fight, please persuade me into thinking who would win...I MUST KNOW!


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Oct 12, 2009)

Jiraiyia still can't do shit to susano'o, the jiraiya wank got larger this time around in the anime though.


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## ? (Oct 12, 2009)

Khris said:


> Jiraiyia still can't do shit to susano'o, the jiraiya wank got larger this time around in the anime though.


yomi numa...


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## Nikushimi (Oct 12, 2009)

Itachi wins with virtually no difficulty. He just needs to get within range to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, and all he really needs to watch out for at this range...is Yomi Numa and the tongue attacks of the Ni Dai Sennin. But Shunshin no Jutsu should let him dodge Yomi Numa and cover this distance pretty quickly, and his natural agility will let him dodge the tongues. Then he just gets within range and nails J-Man with a healthy dose of mental murder...or if those mothafuckas wanna act lame, then they gonna end up in the fuckin' black flame. 

MANGEKYOU IN THE EYESSSSS.
ONLY SEE BLOOD WHEN A NINJA CRIES.
WANNA BEAT ME THEN YA BETTER GET
SASUKEEEEEEEEEEE!!! KISHIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Oct 12, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> yomi numa...



the liquid won't bypass yata's mirror, so it won't sink susano'o. and don't tell me it will sink yata's mirror, because that won't be funny.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 12, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi wins with virtually no difficulty. He just needs to get within range to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, and all he really needs to watch out for at this range...is Yomi Numa and the tongue attacks of the Ni Dai Sennin. But Shunshin no Jutsu should let him dodge Yomi Numa and cover this distance pretty quickly, and his natural agility will let him dodge the tongues. Then he just gets within range and nails J-Man with a healthy dose of mental murder...or if those mothafuckas wanna act lame, then they gonna end up in the fuckin' black flame.
> 
> MANGEKYOU IN THE EYESSSSS.
> ONLY SEE BLOOD WHEN A NINJA CRIES.
> ...



It may seem like you inject yourself with blindless tardism every morning....


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## ? (Oct 12, 2009)

Khris said:


> the liquid won't bypass yata's mirror, so it won't sink susano'o. and don't tell me it will sink yata's mirror, because that won't be funny.


.....and just why wont it?
how the hell can it block something thats not really attacking it but more like sinking it.


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2009)

Itachi and Jiraiya are equals, but if your going to allow Jiraiya to Start off in HM that gives him a Huge Advantage. Because of the Nature of HM i doubt Genjutsu will work and if it Does then Jiraiya has his Detection Barrier to avoid Eye contact and he has Dust Cloud via Ma to Block LOS and he can use's Ma's Biological Detection to fight within it. Itachi right from the Get Go is going to find himself vastly outclassed in Close Combat and Basic Ninjutsu. He isn't going to find his Genjutsu a whole lot effective when it comes to HM Jiraiya and he will be attacked by combined might of Three highlevel fighters MA, Pa, and HM Jiraiya.

I Personally believe that HM Jiraiya can dodge Ameretsu like Raikage as HM Jiraiya has better Speed Feats then Raikage and even if he is Some What Slower then Raikage then he can probably Dodge Ameretsu at least for a Little while aka Long Enough to Block LOS or Pull out a Fire Seal to Block the Attack. So i don't see Ameretsu being that effective ether here.

This means that If Itachi survives long enough to see that he needs Susano'o it will come down to basically a Fresh HM Jiraiya vs Itachi in Susano'o in Which Case Jiriaya would probably be able to out Last Susano'o or Sink it with Numa Swamp for the Win. 

The Reason why Jiriaya and Itachi are Equal is that when Jiriaya starts in base Mode Itachi has time to put Pressure in Jiriaya with and wear him down as well as observe Jiraiya's fighting Style with the Sharigan before Jiriaya makes it to HM. Then Once Jiriaya does Make it into HM he won't be 100% and Itachi will have a better strategic way to handle HM and Wear Jiriaya down in it better at which point Itachi will find that Susano'o is More Effective against a Mentally and Physically Drained HM Jiraiya and have a greater deal of Success with it as well as not being as drained entering Susano'o himself. Then the fight would probably end in a Draw or Itachi killing Jiriaya while Susano'o kills him.


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## Soul (Oct 12, 2009)

Complete_Ownage said:


> 5)Proof The swamp wont work on Susanno? O wait there is non its all a theory



Then proof that it will work on Susano'o. Your point is also a theory.



Inu-Sennin said:


> you don't need to be close for frog call to work.



Yes it does, at least it requires to be closer than Sharingan Genjutsu's range.



> how can they when they'll be in the swamp too?




Karasu Bunshins; as simple as that. Crows can fly.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Then proof that it will work on Susano'o. Your point is also a theory.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It would only work if susanoo could fly, which it cannot. It's not a striking attack so what would a shield do against it, would a shield really help if u were sinking....


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## ? (Oct 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Yes it does, at least it requires to be closer than Sharingan Genjutsu's range.


 sound travels FAR. he doesn't need to be at close range.


> Karasu Bunshins; as simple as that. Crows can fly.


 again how does that help when he's already stuck in the swamp?


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## Harry Balzac (Oct 12, 2009)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> I missed Jiraiya's speed feats where he was faster than the Sharingan.
> 
> As far as I can tell, pretty much every Pain body could keep up with HM Jiraiya, Naruto could hang on with Tendou and so did Kakashi. Yet Itachi, who's seal formation surpassed the Sharingan, who's so fast that he created a clone in mid-air and suprised Sasuke, who has imo much better speed feats than HM Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



Couldn't have said it better myself ;]


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## Soul (Oct 12, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> sound travels FAR. he doesn't need to be at close range.



Neither does Sharingan Genjutsu



> again how does that help when he's already stuck in the swamp?



Are you serious?


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Neither does Sharingan Genjutsu
> 
> 
> 
> Are you serious?



Ofcourse hes serius, that previous quote about crow bunshin is one of the dumbest, pointless things i ever heard(what would a crow bunshin even do)...


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## Soul (Oct 12, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Ofcourse hes serius, that previous quote about crow bunshin is one of the dumbest, pointless things i ever heard(what would a crow bunshin even do)...



Can't crows help Itachi to get out of the Swamp?
Can't he just jump?

That Swamp is overrated as hell.


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## ? (Oct 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Neither does Sharingan Genjutsu


 all of itachi's genjutsu is close range.plus with the sage mode, the frogs can easily snap him out of genjutsu.


> Are you serious?


yes i am.


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## Soul (Oct 12, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> for one thing jiraiya has knowledge of itachi so he won't fall for sharingan genjutsu. plus all of itachi's genjutsu is close range.



Read the Opening Post; _*he doesn't has knowledge*_.



> yes i am.



Then Yomi Numa is a one hit kill?


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## ? (Oct 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Read the Opening Post; _*he doesn't has knowledge*_.


he doesn't need it. the toads can snap him out of genjutsu easily.


> Then Yomi Numa is a one hit kill?


if you can't escape yes, it is.and he can make it as deep as his chakra allows.


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## Soul (Oct 12, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> he doesn't need it. the toads can snap him out of genjutsu easily.



Proof.
Also, it has been showed that Sharingan Genjutsu can be casted on several targets at once.



> if you can't escape yes, it is.and he can make it as deep as his chakra allows.



Itachi should be able to escape.

He could just jump out of it by reacting and using chakra to get himself out of it, just like he does to walk in the water, or with the usage of bunshins.


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## ? (Oct 12, 2009)

> QUOTE=TheYellowFlash10;25995215]Proof.
> Also, it has been showed that Sharingan Genjutsu can be casted on several targets at once.


proof? in his sage mode, sage chakra is constantly been transferred to him through the frogs. guess how you break genjutsu? you can get out of one with someone disrupting your chakra.it's simple. jirayas chakra is constantly changing and disrupted so the genjutsu is rendered useless.also you assume everyone will be looking into itachi's eyes at once. no proof that will happen.


> Itachi should be able to escape.
> 
> He could just jump out of it by reacting and using chakra to get himself out of it, just like he does to walk in the water, or with the usage of bunshins.


no he can't escape. he's shown nothing that would get him out.the bunshin trick is useless because once the bunshin is made it will be in the swamp to.unless the bunshin by some miracle has levitation powers. also the walk on water trick won't work. this is not stable like water. it's pulling him.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 12, 2009)

Itachi owns him with Tsukiyomi in canon. Jiraiya's looking right at him. It's that simple, people. No need to make things up about Jiraiya having speed feats remotely comparable to Sasuke let alone Raikage [unlike Itachi] to dodge Itachi's blatantly superior Amatarasu. Yomni Numa has no feats other than temporarily trapping a weaker Pein body and trapping a nameless summon. Wow, and your arguing it will Itachi. You know you're desperate when you're relying completely on that when you'd have better time arguing that Temari owns Itachi with her weasel.


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## Soul (Oct 12, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> proof? in his sage mode, sage chakra is constantly been transferred to him through the frogs. guess how you break genjutsu? you can get out of one with someone disrupting your chakra.it's simple. jirayas chakra is constantly changing and disrupted so the genjutsu is rendered useless.



That is speculation, you aren't proving shit.
Also, your theory doesn't has a counter to Tsukuyomi.



> also you assume everyone will be looking into itachi's eyes at once. no proof that will happen.



Then how will they attack?



> also the walk on water trick won't work. this is not stable like water. it's pulling him.



Why not?
Itachi just needs a bit of balance to jump out of the Swamp.


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## Harry Balzac (Oct 12, 2009)

Jiraiya beat itachi at his own game, genjutsu??? LOOL, sure sure.

Itachi slaps this old sack


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## Cyphon (Oct 12, 2009)

Jiraiya wins this.

He has the speed advantage (IMO), a major power advantage, taijutsu advantage and ninjutsu advantage....oh, and a major stamina advantage as well as Ma and Pa to help with genjutsu. 

We have seen in recent chapters that shunshin is enough to dodge Amaterasu and Jiraiya in SM is one of the faster characters we seen and has some knowledge of Amaterasu if not a lot based off of him sealing it most likely to study it.

Itachi's best and probably only chance in this fight is Susanoo and I believe Jiraiya will have the speed to avoid it and the technique in Susanoo to help counter it.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 12, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> He has the speed advantage (IMO)



I agree. If you completely ignore feats that is.



Cyphon said:


> a major power advantage



Not an advantage, really. Useless stat.



Cyphon said:


> taijutsu advantage



Not really. His speed and power was shown. Not technique.



Cyphon said:


> and ninjutsu advantage



Itachi's techniques are _MUCH_ better. Jiraiya has no Doujutsu.



Cyphon said:


> oh, and a major stamina advantage



I believe Itachi is healthy here. So that's certainly arguable.



Cyphon said:


> as well as Ma and Pa to help with genjutsu.



Sharingan Genjutsu effects summons and multiple individuals at once. 



Cyphon said:


> We have seen in recent chapters that shunshin is enough to dodge Amaterasu and Jiraiya in SM is one of the faster characters we seen



He's barely, if at all, faster than Sasuke. 



Cyphon said:


> Itachi's best and probably only chance in this fight is Susanoo and I believe Jiraiya will have the speed to avoid it and the technique in Susanoo to help counter it.



So basically you believe this because of unsubstantiated speed 



			
				Illusory said:
			
		

> Itachi owns him with Tsukiyomi in canon. Jiraiya's looking right at him. It's that simple, people. No need to make things up about Jiraiya having speed feats remotely comparable to Sasuke let alone Raikage [unlike Itachi] to dodge Itachi's blatantly superior Amatarasu. Yomni Numa has no feats other than temporarily trapping a weaker Pein body and trapping a nameless summon. Wow, and your arguing it will Itachi. You know you're desperate when you're relying completely on that when you'd have better time arguing that Temari owns Itachi with her weasel.


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## ? (Oct 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> That is speculation, you aren't proving shit.
> Also, your theory doesn't has a counter to Tsukuyomi.


no the hell it isn't. i used the mechanics of sage mode to determine that he won't be effected by his genjutsu. his chakra is being disturbed constantly so it would break the genjutsu. also itachi's basic genjutsu can be countered by ma and pa by simply snapping him out.


> hen how will they attack?


since when does one have to look in anothers eyes to fight them?


> Why not?
> Itachi just needs a bit of balance to jump out of the Swamp.



 if his feet are already caught in the swamp he's not getting out.he'd have no leverage to jump because he will be sinking.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 12, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> if his feet are already caught in the swamp he's not getting out.he'd have no leverage to jump because he will be sinking.



And yet we see shinobi climb out of and on top of water all the time. If Kakashi whipped out a chain to fight off Deva's gravity then I think Itachi can comfortably counter this to say the least. Again, this techniques feats include trapping the weakest Pein body and a fodder snake. Temari's weasel is arguably much better. Can Temari's weasel solo Itachi?


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## Cyphon (Oct 12, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I agree. If you completely ignore feats that is.



There is no feat that shows Itachi being faster than Jiraiya, especially in SM. Unless you can provide some maybe?!



> Not an advantage, really. Useless stat.



Tsunade, Raikage, Naruto, Jirobou, Killer Bee, Gai, Kisame and Jiraiya all disagree 



> Not really. His speed and power was shown. Not technique.



Their taijutsu stat is the same. Give Jiraiya more speed and power and he most likely holds an advantage....some of which is nullified by Sharingan, but not all.



> Itachi's techniques are _MUCH_ better. Jiraiya has no Doujutsu.



Doujutsu doesn't matter since I am talking about ninjutsu, which Jiraiya holds a major advantage in.



> I believe Itachi is healthy here. So that's certainly arguable.



Its not even remotely arguable. Jiraiya has a stamina stat of 5 while Itachi has something like a 2.5. SM gives you additional stamina. Try again.



> Sharingan Genjutsu effects summons and multiple individuals at once.



I would need feats of Itachi doing this because I only remember Kakashi doing something like that. It could be a certain technique that Itachi didn't possess. Of course if you want to just add jutsu for him I will just add jutsu for Jiraiya as well 



> He's barely, if at all, faster than Sasuke.



Relevance?



> So basically you believe this because of unsubstantiated speed



No, I believe because of speed, power, stamina and advantages in just about every scenario. 

You should try to read a bit better.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 12, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> There is no feat that shows Itachi being faster than Jiraiya, especially in SM. Unless you can provide some maybe?!



Feel free to look in my signature. Itachi moves faster than the Sharingan can see. Jiraiya has no feat that matches that. 



Cyphon said:


> Tsunade, Raikage, Naruto, Jirobou, Killer Bee, Gai, Kisame and Jiraiya all disagree



Ignoring all the people with ridiculous speed advantages... Tsunade, Jiroubo, and Kisame haven't shown to be to impressive in front of someone like Gai or even Asuma with their strength. Strength is useful for punching through walls, but in high leveled combat it's not a deciding factor. 



Cyphon said:


> Their taijutsu stat is the same. Give Jiraiya more speed and power and he most likely holds an advantage....some of which is nullified by Sharingan, but not all.



Okay, but Jiraiya doesn't have a speed advantage. If anyone does, it's Itachi.



Cyphon said:


> Doujutsu doesn't matter since I am talking about ninjutsu, which Jiraiya holds a major advantage in.



Amatarasu and Susano are technically Ninjutsu. So, no, he doesn't.



Cyphon said:


> Its not even remotely arguable. Jiraiya has a stamina stat of 5 while Itachi has something like a 2.5. SM gives you additional stamina. Try again.



Itachi is only walking because of extensive medication. Better?



Cyphon said:


> I would need feats of Itachi doing this because I only remember Kakashi doing something like that. It could be a certain technique that Itachi didn't possess. Of course if you want to just add jutsu for him I will just add jutsu for Jiraiya as well



Well in the same way that Jiraiya is assumed to have Naruto's Rasengan right after timeskip, so too can we assume that Itachi, the Sharingan Genjutsu master, has Kakashi's Sharingan Genjutsu. There are also implications of this when Kakashi tells Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes. Just curious, what jutsu would you add for Jiraiya? 



Cyphon said:


> Relevance?



Not fast enough to dodge Amatarasu.



Cyphon said:


> No, I believe because of speed, power, stamina and advantages in just about every scenario.



Power. Stamina if Itachi is on his deathbed.


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## Cyphon (Oct 12, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Feel free to look in my signature. Itachi moves faster than the Sharingan can see. Jiraiya has no feat that matches that.



No, his hands move faster than the Sharingan can see, not him.



> Ignoring all the people with ridiculous speed advantages... Tsunade, Jiroubo, and Kisame haven't shown to be to impressive in front of someone like Gai or even Asuma with their strength. Strength is useful for punching through walls, but in high leveled combat it's not a deciding factor.



It is a high level factor. It kept Naruto and Jiraiya from having to spend much time on summons. It helped Raikage force Sasuke into Susanoo and he was even strong enough to break part of Susanoo. It has a lot to do with combat. Mainly because some of these people are strong enough to simply kill you with 1 hit. I don't see how you can ignore that.



> Okay, but Jiraiya doesn't have a speed advantage. If anyone does, it's Itachi.



If you are going to make this statement you will need to provide some proof of it.



> Amatarasu and Susano are technically Ninjutsu. So, no, he doesn't.



Technically they are dojutsu since they come from the eye, but even counting them Jiraiya has Yomi Numa for Susanoo and Shunshin for Amaterasu. Add in all of his other techniques and Itachi is inferior in ninjutsu. Now if we count Amaterasu and Susanoo specifically as ninjutsu, sure he has more hax, but still lacks a lot of the versatility and such that Jiraiya brings.



> Itachi is only walking because of extensive medication. Better?



?



> Well in the same way that Jiraiya is assumed to have Naruto's Rasengan right after timeskip, so too can we assume that Itachi, the Genjutsu master, has Kakashi's Genjutsu.



What? How exactly does that work and who assumed Jiraiya had FRS? That's retarded.



> There are also implications of this when Kakashi tells Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes. Just curious, what jutsu would you add for Jiraiya?



1. He told them to close their eyes so they didn't get caught. That doesn't mean he can catch them both at once.

2. Anything I want because we are all just making stuff up right? If Itachi tards get to rewrite the story and add techniques he has never shown than why can't I give every character we discuss things as well?



> Not fast enough to dodge Amatarasu.



I assume you have some proof of this.



> Power. Stamina if Itachi is on his deathbed.



DB disagrees with you as well as Jiraiya having an "enormous chakra pool".


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## Sadgoob (Oct 12, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> No, his hands move faster than the Sharingan can see, not him.



Click the link in my sig. You're ignorant to my argument and I don't want to rewrite it.



Cyphon said:


> Technically they are dojutsu since they come from the eye, but even counting them Jiraiya has Yomi Numa for Susanoo and Shunshin for Amaterasu.



Jiraiya is not as fast as the Raikage. Yomi Numa traps fodder snakes and very weak Pein bodies. It doesn't kill Itachi in Susano. 



Cyphon said:


> What? How exactly does that work and who assumed Jiraiya had FRS? That's retarded.



You're saying that Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu can't do what Kakashi's Sharingan Genjutsu can do? Not FRS, the improved Rasengan right after the timeskip.



Cyphon said:


> 1. He told them to close their eyes so they didn't get caught. That doesn't mean he can catch them both at once.



It implies it. Especially with the Kakashi thing.



Cyphon said:


> 2. Anything I want because we are all just making stuff up right? If Itachi tards get to rewrite the story and add techniques he has never shown than why can't I give every character we discuss things as well?



I could care less if you did. Make the argument. I'm curious if you can say that Jiraiya has some other technique that's as likely as Itachi having a Sharingan Genjutsu technique. Really, do it. I'm waiting.



Cyphon said:


> DB disagrees with you as well as Jiraiya having an "enormous chakra pool".



I'm not saying he doesn't. I'm saying that Itachi's used 5 MS techniques, clones, two giant Katons, and a few Genjutsu before he went down after giving a chunk of power to Naruto. If you think he's missing 5 MS techniques that's your call for Jiraiya to outlast Itachi.


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## Cyphon (Oct 12, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Click the link in my sig. You're ignorant to my argument and I don't want to rewrite it.



I prefer manga to your speculation. If you can provide some scans or something to support your argument I will be more than happy to view them.



> Jiraiya is not as fast as the Raikage.



1. Prove it

2. Why does it matter?

3. When did I say he was faster than the Raikage?



> Yomi Numa traps fodder snakes and very weak Pein bodies. It doesn't kill Itachi in Susano.



Again, can you prove it wouldn't catch Itachi? We can speculate all we want, but you shouldn't make a statement you have no proof of.

Of course, we can both play that game. Itachi has only been able to beat opponents weaker than Jiraiya, so there is no way he could kill Jiraiya. See how that works 



> You're saying that Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu can't do what Kakashi's Sharingan Genjutsu can do?



Its possible, but we don't know if it is a certain technique or something the Sharingan can simply do. What people tend to forget is that Kakashi has had his Sharingan longer than Itachi and as strange as it sounds, may be able to do somethings Itachi can't with it.

I know your argument to this will be something like "NO WAY ITACHI IS MY GOD AND KAKASHI COULD NEVER DO THAT". But actually take the time to consider that he HAS had it longer, is just as intelligent as Itachi AND has an MS technique that he shouldn't even be capable of having.

So yeah, Itachi MAY be capable of it, but we simply don't know.



> Not FRS, the improved Rasengan right after the timeskip.



It wasn't improved it was just bigger. Are you saying Jiraiya doesn't have enough chakra to make a bigger Rasengan?



> It implies it. Especially with the Kakashi thing.



No it doesn't. 



> I could care less if you did. Make the argument. I'm curious if you can say that Jiraiya has some other technique that's as likely as Itachi having a Sharingan Genjutsu technique. Really, do it. I'm waiting.



No need as I prefer cannon arguments. I was just asking if you would mind it.



> I'm not saying he doesn't. I'm saying that Itachi's used 5 MS techniques, clones, two giant Katons, and a few Genjutsu before he went down after giving a chunk of power to Naruto. If you think he's missing 5 MS techniques that's your call for Jiraiya to outlast Itachi.



What is your point? How does that show he has as much stamina? You do know after using all of that he died and was bleeding from the eyes right? That isn't all just from illness. Proof would be Sasuke bleeding from the eyes and being near death after spamming MS as well. He simply doesn't have the stamina to handle all of that.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 12, 2009)

The link in my signature has many, many scans, Cyphon. The manga supports Itachi owning Sanin, unfortunately. As does speculation.


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## Cyphon (Oct 12, 2009)

Illusory said:


> The link in my signature has many, many scans, Cyphon. The manga supports Itachi owning Sanin, unfortunately. As does speculation.



Still waiting for proof, but if you have given up then I accept you concession. Nice try though.


----------



## Soul (Oct 12, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> no the hell it isn't. i used the mechanics of sage mode to determine that he won't be effected by his genjutsu.



Do you know what speculate is?



> his chakra is being disturbed constantly so it would break the genjutsu.



Theoretically? Maybe
But this isn't confirmed/proved.



> also itachi's basic genjutsu can be countered by ma and pa by simply snapping him out.



Again, Itachi can cast multiple Genjutsus.



> since when does one have to look in anothers eyes to fight them?



Itachi can also cast Genjutsu with his finger, so it will be difficult for them to not get caught in Genjutsu.



> if his feet are already caught in the swamp he's not getting out.he'd have no leverage to jump because he will be sinking.



So, Yomi Numa is a One Hit kill?

Also, how do Shinobis can get out of water {Even Pre Time Skip Naruto could do it here}, With a better mastery of the chakra control {And Itachi is a master of it}, anyone can get out of that Swamp.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 12, 2009)

The sad thing is that proof is in another thread. If you're seriously incapable of clicking a link then I'll happily quote it for you here.


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## Cyphon (Oct 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Also, how do Shinobis can get out of water {Even Pre Time Skip Naruto could do it herehere}, With a better mastery of the chakra control {And Itachi is a master of it}, anyone can get out of that Swamp.



Just thought I would step in on this one. The problem with Yomi Numa is that it uses chakra to drag the opponent down/hold them there.

Water doesn't fight back or pull ninja in, so its not really the same concept. 

You can kind of see this with Pain. He had his legs caught and then put his hands down to push himself out and was simply more stuck.



Illusory said:


> The sad thing is that proof is in another thread. If you're seriously incapable of clicking a link then I'll happily quote it for you here.



I already told you I will read it if you provide it. I am not going to read a whole other thread that is irrelevant. I want specific proof of your points.


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## the box (Oct 12, 2009)

Illusory said:


> The sad thing is that proof is in another thread. If you're seriously incapable of clicking a link then I'll happily quote it for you here.



good then stop wasting are time and post it 

and btw jiraya is superiror in HM to itachi in every way possible


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## Sadgoob (Oct 12, 2009)

> *Speed & Reflexes Misconceptions*
> 
> People underestimate his speed most of all. He has moved too fast for Sasuke's Sharingan, not unlike the Raikage, but with Ninjutsu to boot. He created a clone, that assumably was created beside him like every other clone in the manga, and had the clone move out of the range of sight in the midst of a shuriken war that *completely* escaped Sasuke's Sharingan. The only other explanation is that he summoned a single clone in the corner of the room which has never before been shown in the manga and denies Sasuke and Kakashi's admiration of his speed. That is probably the most impressive speed feat to date - the Raikage's feats included. He also pulled something vaguely similar on Kurenai and Kakashi in their first conflict. I hope you're keeping his handicaps and misconceptions in mind as well throughout all of this. Why people see him throwing shurikens and blocking everyone of Sasuke's at punching range and still forming a Kage Bushin but don't believe he has the reflexes Sasori to dodge Sasori's projectiles... Oh yeah, and *his* synapses fire faster than lightning, like the Raikages, implying a natural resistance to Genjutsu.
> 
> ...



Here's the most relevant bits although you would benefit form the entire OP.


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## Soul (Oct 12, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Just thought I would step in on this one. The problem with Yomi Numa is that it uses chakra to drag the opponent down/hold them there.



But he won't sink immediately.
My argument is that he can use that to just jump of the damned Swamp.



> You can kind of see this with Pain. He had his legs caught and then put his hands down to push himself out and was simply more stuck.



But I don't think that he was using his chakra control to do it...


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> But he won't sink immediately.
> My argument is that he can use that to just jump of the damned Swamp.



Well, he can probably use certain techniques to help get out, but I don't think it would be easy. 

There are a few questions that would need answered.

1. How big is the swamp. Even if he made a KB could it reach him to pull him out?

Kind of related to question 1.

2. Say it is too big, CAN you walk on the swamp or would the chakra nullify yours and you still sink?

It may depend on how much/how strong the chakra you send through your feet is. Its hard to say for sure.



> But I don't think that he was using his chakra control to do it...



He may or may not have been. I don't see why he would just stick his hands in though.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 12, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Here's the most relevant bits although you would benefit form the entire OP.



I read through and again it says nothing more than what you have been saying and provides no additional proof. Still you just speculating or assuming things.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 12, 2009)

> I agree. If you completely ignore feats that is


Jiriaya has better Feats then Itachi in HM. Handseal speed isn't even factored into cover x amount of distances/running speed by the Author himself so obviously the Two Speeds require a different set of skills. 



> Not an advantage, really. Useless stat


Not useless at all. If the Two end up clashing in Hand to Hand Combat Itachi is Fucked. Not to mention Itachi isn't going to be able to grapple with Jiraiya like he did with Sasuke or he will end up owned. 



> Not really. His speed and power was shown. Not technique.


His Technique According to the Author is Within the Same Tier as Itachi. And Again According to the Author Taijutsu is Greatly Increased in HM. So Yes Jiraiya is Superior to Itachi in Taijutsu once he is in HM at least according to the author. 



> Itachi's techniques are MUCH better.


This is completely opinion based so there is no use arguing it. All i will say is that HM Jiraiya has Far More High Level Ninjutsu then Itachi and has a Far Greater Variety of Ninjutsu to be used in any kind of Situation. As Well as the Fact that Jiraiya has been shown to be Superior to Itachi in Elemental Recomposition, Shape Manipulation, Body Manipulation, Summoning, Basic Ninjutsu Techniques, Sealing Techniques, Infiltration Techniques, and So on. 



> Jiraiya has no Doujutsu.


This isn't an argument Senju Harashirama had no Dojutsu and he was Superior to Any and All Uchiha thus far in the manga. 



> I believe Itachi is healthy here. So that's certainly arguable.


Your Going to Argue that Itachi has more Stamina then HM Jiraiya? Honestly? Okay were is the Proof that Itachi ever had as Much Stamina as HM Jiraiya. 



> Sharingan Genjutsu effects summons and multiple individuals at once.


Kakashi's Sharigan Genjutsu Technique Effected Two Fodder Anbu. There is no Proof that Itachi even has the same Genjutsu Technique as Kakashi, let alone proving that such a Technique would be effective on three none fodder Shinobi at once. 



> He's barely, if at all, faster than Sasuke.


HM Jiraiya holds some of the best Speed Feats in the manga, better then Raikage's in-fact. To compare him to Sasuke is laughable. 



> So basically you believe this because of unsubstantiated speed


HM Jiriaya's Speed has been Substantiated as exceptionally high in the manga by the Author himself. Here are the Speed Feats:

1-Reference for Distance:


Human Realm Moves Forward(Bottom Left Panel of First Page you Can See his Shoe move forward) and Jiriaya covers that distance in an instant:



2-Reference for Distance:
-Same as in example 1 for how Far Away the Wall is From Jiraiya's Position
-This one for how high up he is on the building:


Covers the Distance from where he kicked human realm to that height on the wall in an instant:


3-Reference for Distance:
-Same as the second Reference in Example 2 for how high up/far away he is from Hungry Ghost

His Sandle Drops here:


Despite taking his pose and delaying a little he still reaches Hungry Ghost Realm with his attack before the sandle hits the ground:


4-Reference of Distance:
-Notice that the Hole to enter the Pipes is behind the three Pain bodies who are facing forward at Jiraiya:


Jiraiya throws a Smoke Bomb and instantly disappears far into the Pipe system, which means he moved past the pains w/o them even seeing the movement:


Note that the only person who has Speed Feats that even come close to these is Killer Bee. Naruto in Sage Mode with Shunshin has a Good Speed Feat As well, but its more debatable. So Jiraiya holds the best Speed Feats in the manga so far a-long with Killer Bee and he holds the most consistent speed high level speed feats in the manga. 

So Yes Jiraiya's Speed Being Incredible in HM is Substantiated.


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## Soul (Oct 12, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> 1. How big is the swamp. Even if he made a KB could it reach him to pull him out?



I believe that a Crow Bunshin could easily do it, as Crows can fly, therefore, it could help Itachi.



> 2. Say it is too big, CAN you walk on the swamp or would the chakra nullify yours and you still sink?



As you wrote below in this post, it would depend on the chakra.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 13, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> I believe that a Crow Bunshin could easily do it, as Crows can fly, therefore, it could help Itachi.
> 
> 
> 
> As you wrote below in this post, it would depend on the chakra.



And a crow is gonna pull up a 140 pound+man off the ground how itachitard? if itachi makes a crow clone with susano its pretty much stamina suicide, jiraiya would just be looking at a guy with a struggling crow in his hand like what the fuck is he doing.


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## Soul (Oct 13, 2009)

Is this personal?



DarkRasengan said:


> And a crow is gonna pull up a 140 pound+man off the ground how itachitard?




It isn't a crow, they are a lot of them.

Also, there are other ways of getting out of the Swamp, I just posted another ones there.



> if itachi makes a crow clone with susano its pretty much stamina suicide



Yata's mirror would block Yomi Numa.



You seem like you are too confident on your arguments, why don't you back them up wth proof?


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## Nikushimi (Oct 13, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> It may seem like you inject yourself with blindless tardism every morning....



Yes, the "blindless" kind. 

You must inject yourself with the blind kind, then. 



Turrin said:


> Itachi and Jiraiya are equals, but if your going to allow Jiraiya to Start off in HM that gives him a Huge Advantage. Because of the Nature of HM i doubt Genjutsu will work and if it Does then Jiraiya has his Detection Barrier to avoid Eye contact and he has Dust Cloud via Ma to Block LOS and he can use's Ma's Biological Detection to fight within it.



He does all of this before Itachi uses Shunshin and looks him in the eye? I don't think so.



> Itachi right from the Get Go is going to find himself vastly outclassed in Close Combat and Basic Ninjutsu.



That's why he has Amaterasu. 



> He isn't going to find his Genjutsu a whole lot effective when it comes to HM Jiraiya and he will be attacked by combined might of Three highlevel fighters MA, Pa, and HM Jiraiya.



Tsukuyomi is his perfect answer for this problem.



> I Personally believe that HM Jiraiya can dodge Ameretsu like Raikage as HM Jiraiya has better Speed Feats then Raikage







> and even if he is Some What Slower then Raikage then he can probably Dodge Ameretsu at least for a Little while aka Long Enough to Block LOS or Pull out a Fire Seal to Block the Attack. So i don't see Ameretsu being that effective ether here.



Jiraiya's speed feats aren't even close to Raikage's. Sennin Jiraiya and Itachi are about the same speed, but Itachi has Sharingan so he has the advantage. Amaterasu will connect immediately, assuming Jiraiya is stationary when Itachi uses it; otherwise it may take a few seconds to catch him.



> This means that If Itachi survives long enough to see that he needs Susano'o it will come down to basically a Fresh HM Jiraiya vs Itachi in Susano'o in Which Case Jiriaya would probably be able to out Last Susano'o or Sink it with Numa Swamp for the Win.



Yata no Kagami will nullify the swamp, and Jiraiya will just get skewered.



> The Reason why Jiriaya and Itachi are Equal is that when Jiriaya starts in base Mode Itachi has time to put Pressure in Jiriaya with and wear him down as well as observe Jiraiya's fighting Style with the Sharigan before Jiriaya makes it to HM. Then Once Jiriaya does Make it into HM he won't be 100% and Itachi will have a better strategic way to handle HM and Wear Jiriaya down in it better at which point Itachi will find that Susano'o is More Effective against a Mentally and Physically Drained HM Jiraiya and have a greater deal of Success with it as well as not being as drained entering Susano'o himself. Then the fight would probably end in a Draw or Itachi killing Jiriaya while Susano'o kills him.



Nah, if Jiraiya started in base form within 5m of Itachi, the fight would end in two seconds because Itachi would paralyze him with Genjutsu and cut his arm off with a kunai as soon as he even tried to break it.

In Sennin Moodo, it's simply a matter of which Mangekyou technique Itachi pulls out of a hat to win with one blow.



Cyphon said:


> Jiraiya wins this.
> 
> He has the speed advantage (IMO), a major power advantage, taijutsu advantage and ninjutsu advantage....oh, and a major stamina advantage as well as Ma and Pa to help with genjutsu.



That's all fine and good...until you take Mangekyou Sharingan into consideration, and then Itachi can casually pluck Jiraiya out of existence with one move.



> We have seen in recent chapters that shunshin is enough to dodge Amaterasu and Jiraiya in SM is one of the faster characters we seen



Not really. Raikage is much faster. Sennin Jiraiya is barely faster than Sasuke at all, let alone enough to trick his Sharingan with an after-image, which is a feat that requires him to surpass Sasuke's Persistence of Vision, which would require him to be massively hypersonic.



> and has some knowledge of Amaterasu if not a lot based off of him sealing it most likely to study it.



Pure speculation. He sealed it. That's all we know. In regards to its execution and what to expect, he has no idea.



> Itachi's best and probably only chance in this fight is Susanoo and I believe Jiraiya will have the speed to avoid it and the technique in Susanoo to help counter it.



Nah, Jiraiya isn't fast enough to dodge something almost as big as a boss summon with enough speed to blitz Orochimaru.


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## Seon (Oct 13, 2009)

I believe it's in Itachi's favor.


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## Marco (Oct 13, 2009)

Ugh.. This again?

HM Jiraiya has an advantage IMO opinion with Boss Summons, arguably Genjutsu immunity, his Doton: Yomi Nouma, and limitless chakra, and most importantly the large distance between them. The distance is a huge disadvantage to Itachi since it gives Jiraiya opportunity to summon Boss Toads and enter Sage Mode on top of one of them.

The distance also means Jiraiya has better chance of avoiding Amaterasu if he keeps up the distance. And we've just seen Amaterasu takes time to burn an opponent and Jiriaya could arguably seal Amaterasu and tank/heal damage to some extent with his Sage Chakra.

Jiraiya can also severely hamper Itachi's mobility with Doton: Yomi Numa.

But I don't see Jiraiya having anything to counter Susanoo.. At best he could put up the barrier and retreat to wait it out. However, he wouldn't have knowledge of what Susanoo does and Itachi could beat him because of that.


The way the scenario has been pit, I'd say Jiraiya takes this 7 out of 10 times.

A more balanced scenario perhaps, OP?


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2009)

> He does all of this before Itachi uses Shunshin and looks him in the eye? I don't think so


He Avoids Eye Contact Until he does that which wouldn't take him long at all as Ma's Dust cloud can be cast almost instantly and Jiraiya's Detection barrier takes a clap of the feat. So Yes in HM i'm pretty confident that Jiraiya can do ether of those things before Itachi Shunshin's 50m and forces a HM Jiriaya to look into his eyes. 



> That's why he has Amaterasu.


Yes being Instantly forced to use your Second Most Draining Technique with in a few minutes of the start of the battle always bodes well. 



> Tsukuyomi is his perfect answer for this problem.


If Genjutsu even works on HM Jiraiya. And If There is a Clear LOS that isn't being obstructed by Dust Cloud or Smoke Bombs and if Jiraiya's doesn't use his Barrier or Ma's Biological Detection to Fight Itachi instead of looking him in the eyes then Tsukyomi may work, but considering Jiraiya willed himself back to life itachi is going to have a hell of a time breaking him mentally even in Tskuyomi. 



> Jiraiya's speed feats aren't even close to Raikage's.


So Thats why Jiraiya has better Speed Feats then Raikage...Right...



> Sennin Jiraiya and Itachi are about the same speed, but Itachi has Sharingan so he has the advantage.


And Where is the Proof or Feats that Itachi is as Fast as HM Jiraiya? Itachi doesn't have any speed feats close to HM Jiraiya's. 




> Amaterasu will connect immediately, assuming Jiraiya is stationary



-Why Would Jiraiya ever Be Stationary during the heat of battle when Itachi would be forced to Use Ameretsu

-Again HM Jiraiya can likely Dodge it. Just Because Raikage was able to Dodge it doesn't mean some one needs to be as Fast as Raikage to Dodge it. It Just means Raikage did it with ease. Fast Characters like HM Jiraiya will also be able to dodge it, but probably just with a greater difficulty then Raikage. And to argue that HM Jiraiya isn't even close to Raikage's Speed level is baseless since i could argue Raikage is slower then Jiriaya based on the fact that jiraiya has better feats, but i'm giving Raikage's hype of being faster then Minato's Physical Reflexes in R2 the benifit of the doubt. 



> when Itachi uses it; otherwise it may take a few seconds to catch him.


A Few Seconds is enough time for HM Jiraiya to pull out a Fire Seal or Block LOS. So Yeah you just proved your own point wrong congratz.



> Yata no Kagami will nullify the swamp, and Jiraiya will just get skewered.


Yes because Yata no Kagami can nullify in 360 degrees despite the fact that the shield does not cover 360 degrees. To Be Fair i'm not Sure what would happen in a clash between Yomi Numa and Susano'o, but at the very least it would Slow Susano'o down a Great deal and Give Jiraiya time to put massive distance between him and Susano'o and come up with another Strategy or plan or out last it better. 



> Nah, if Jiraiya started in base form within 5m of Itachi, the fight would end in two seconds because Itachi would paralyze him with Genjutsu and cut his arm off with a kunai as soon as he even tried to break it.


So your point in this debate which is about HM Jiriaya vs Itachi at 50m that if Itachi started at 5m and as against Base Jiraiya he would win? Yes i would agree that under those extremely rare conditions where a battle starts on an open field with no LOS blocking obstacles and the fighters start the match at directly 5m from each other that Itachi would likely win(Not as easy as you make it seem though).

So Yes Itachi can get his own Favorable Circumstances where he starts at his optimal range on an optimal battle field against Base Jiraiya and he would also have a huge advantage and beat Jiraiya. They are equals so it is to be expect that they would each do better depending on Battle Field, Optimal ranges, etc... 



> In Sennin Moodo, it's simply a matter of which Mangekyou technique Itachi pulls out of a hat to *survive* one blow


Fixed it for you.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2009)

@ Yellow Flash
I'm Not even sure Itachi can use Crow Clone w/o Prep-time to find Crows and Project his Chakra at them as it would make no sense to be able to do this technique in the heat of battle unless he had already gathered crows. All the times he did it in the heat of battle could very likely have been Genjutsu as they were in the fight with Sasuke where every other scene was a Genjutsu. I mean read the Data-book entry:



> Crow Clone Technique (烏分身の術, Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> 
> ...


Hence it would seem Crows need to be present unless you believe Itachi could magic them into existence. I mean its possible as Kwarimi makes no sense ether most of the time as the log appears out of nowhere, but then it just seems like an extreme PNJ technique like Kwarimi, in-fact even worse because it requires dozens of crows while Kwarimi requires just one log, it would at least seem that way to me.


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## Cyphon (Oct 13, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> That's all fine and good...until you take Mangekyou Sharingan into consideration, and then Itachi can casually pluck Jiraiya out of existence with one move.



Except I believe he can avoid/have Ma and Pa keep him from Tsukiyami, dodge/stop Amaterasu and Yomi Numa > Susanoo.



> Not really. Raikage is much faster. Sennin Jiraiya is barely faster than Sasuke at all, let alone enough to trick his Sharingan with an after-image, which is a feat that requires him to surpass Sasuke's Persistence of Vision, which would require him to be massively hypersonic.



You would have to prove any of this before I even consider the point. Either way it is simply Shunshin that was used to dodge Amaterasu. Jiraiya can Shunshin and is definitely in the highest tier of speed in SM + he has knowledge of Amaterasu.



> Pure speculation. He sealed it. That's all we know. In regards to its execution and what to expect, he has no idea.



I never said it wasn't speculation, but he probably knows more than you think. Raikage's guard seemed to know a lot about Itachi for some reason including how well he could use Amaterasu so I don't doubt Jiraiya has pretty much full knowledge of it being that he has been shown to have encountered it and sealed it to take with him.

But I must concede the point that we simply can't be sure.



> Nah, Jiraiya isn't fast enough to dodge something almost as big as a boss summon with enough speed to blitz Orochimaru.



1. Oro is slower than even base Jiraiya and wasn't even trying to dodge so there isn't all that much of a speed gauge on Susanoo.

2. What does its size have to do with? We saw Pain dodging boss summons and hes not as fast as Jiraiya.


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## Panos (Oct 13, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Well, he can probably use certain techniques to help get out, but I don't think it would be easy.
> 
> There are a few questions that would need answered.
> 
> ...



By the time he would use the swamp he would be in genjutsu;


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## ? (Oct 13, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Do you know what speculate is?


yeah i do.this outcome of this whole match is speculation. but the specultation is most likely accurate, because you break genjutsu by disrupting your chakra, and since sage jiraiyas chakra is constantly being disrupted, it's a no brainer he would break free from it.




> Theoretically? Maybe
> But this isn't confirmed/proved.


it's been confirmed that you break genjutsu by having your chakra disrupted. and since thats whats happening to jiraiya he will break free from it.


> Again, Itachi can cast multiple Genjutsus.


again you speculate everyone will be watching his eyes at the same time.


> Itachi can also cast Genjutsu with his finger, so it will be difficult for them to not get caught in Genjutsu.


again sage mode breaks him out of it because his chakra is constantly being invaded. 


> So, Yomi Numa is a One Hit kill?
> 
> Also, how do Shinobis can get out of water {Even Pre Time Skip Naruto could do it here}, With a better mastery of the chakra control {And Itachi is a master of it}, anyone can get out of that Swamp.


if you can't escape yes it is.

also water isn't attacking and pulling on the shinobi either like yomi numa.if you think it's as easy as getting out of water your very wrong. otherwise everyone can get out, and there would be no point to the jutsu.


Illusory said:


> And yet we see shinobi climb out of and on top of water all the time. If Kakashi whipped out a chain to fight off Deva's gravity then I think Itachi can comfortably counter this to say the least. Again, this techniques feats include trapping the weakest Pein body and a fodder snake. Temari's weasel is arguably much better. Can Temari's weasel solo Itachi?


and yet water doesn't attack the shinobi. stop thinking this can be escaped out of like normal water. if that was the case there would be no point in the jutsu.and just because it trapped those things, it's weak? the databook says this attack can kill if the one caught in it isn't pulled out in time.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 13, 2009)

People should seriously read the DB entry of this move. Before posting





> Earth Release: Underworld* Swamp (土遁・黄泉沼, Doton: Yomi Numa)
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, All ranges
> User: Jiraiya
> *
> ...








Explain to me what Itachi has to counter this move.




Ohh! yeah its OOC to use this as a starting move. 



That is the best counter argument that Itachifans came up over all these years.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 13, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> People should seriously read the DB entry of this move. Before posting
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Amaterasu
> 
> User(s): Uchiha Itachi
> Rank: -
> ...



ZOMGS! AMARETSU IS HOT AS TEH SUN!!11!

Honestly, stop taking the DB so literally. It hypes the shit out of pretty much every jutsu way out of proportion.

And has already been said, there's too many too shaky to use as concrete evidence/unknown variables between how Yomi Numa reacts with Susanoo. We also don't know how it acts when Jiraiya gets incinerated by Amaterasu.

And for epic lulz, if Itachi's got Jiraiya in a Genjutsu (hint: the odds are about as high as you having to go eat at some point soon) Itachi can trick him into using the jutsu to kill himself as he very nearly did against Deidara.



Cyphon said:


> Except I believe he can avoid/have Ma and Pa keep him from Tsukiyami, dodge/stop Amaterasu and Yomi Numa > Susanoo.



Tsukuyomi would be over before Ni Dai Sennin can bust Jiraiya out. Jiraiya can't dodge Amaterasu and can't anticipate it either, nor can he stop it unless Itachi decides to use it when he doesn't have LoS. As this'd be incredibly retarded on many levels, I doubt it'd happen.

And you can't say Yomi Numa>Susanoo. For a start, Yata's Mirror may well neutralise the jutsu. Susanoo may also be able to lift Itachi out of it and if nothing else, Itachi can one shot Jiraiya with Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi and cause a double kill.



> You would have to prove any of this before I even consider the point. Either way it is simply Shunshin that was used to dodge Amaterasu. Jiraiya can Shunshin and is definitely in the highest tier of speed in SM + he has knowledge of Amaterasu.



Shunshin used by the fastest character in the manga. Nobody else can move that fast, and HM Jiraiya hasn't got the feats to put him above Itachi, let alone at that levle. Jiraiya also doesn't know how Amaterasu is cast, so cannot anticipate it or even begin to dodge it.



> I never said it wasn't speculation, but he probably knows more than you think. Raikage's guard seemed to know a lot about Itachi for some reason including how well he could use Amaterasu so I don't doubt Jiraiya has pretty much full knowledge of it being that he has been shown to have encountered it and sealed it to take with him.
> 
> But I must concede the point that we simply can't be sure.



The only evidence we have either way is Jiraiya is aware Amaterasu's flames are incredibly dangerous. That's it.



> 1. Oro is slower than even base Jiraiya and wasn't even trying to dodge so there isn't all that much of a speed gauge on Susanoo.
> 
> 2. What does its size have to do with? We saw Pain dodging boss summons and hes not as fast as Jiraiya.



1. When did we see any proof indicating Oro was slower than base Jiraiya? If anything, their stereotypical archetypes imply the exact opposite. They even share the same speed tier. Oro was also not trying to dodge because he couldn't see the attack coming. He wasn't trying to tank it as he never tries to do this, so why else would he just sit there? It's not like he couldn't dodge as he could move the entire snake head out the way or just sink back inside the Yamata.

2. We know the Sword of Totsuka can blitz someone in Tier 4.5. It's that fast. We also know that it's enormous. Adding size means it covers a larger area, which increases the odds of a blow landing.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 13, 2009)

Itachi wins. The Mangekyou Sharingan causes Jiraiya's downfall.

Coupled with Itachi's Karasu bunshins, its hard to imagine Jiraiya winning. Sasuke got caught with a Karasu Bunshin + Mangekyou Sharingan combo. Most likely Jiraiya will too.


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## Cyphon (Oct 13, 2009)

peaceful said:


> By the time he would use the swamp he would be in genjutsu;



Proof please


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## Cyphon (Oct 13, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Tsukuyomi would be over before Ni Dai Sennin can bust Jiraiya out.



I dunno. I think it really depends on how them feeding him the Sage chakra would effect it. If they are pumping it at the time of use it would never catch him to begin with....I think.

Though its tough to say.



> Jiraiya can't dodge Amaterasu and can't anticipate it either, nor can he stop it unless Itachi decides to use it when he doesn't have LoS.



You would need to prove this. Raikage was able to shunshin to avoid it and Jiraiya has some incredible speed feats in SM. Plus he SHOULD have pretty much full knowledge on Amaterasu. Granted this can be debated, but I think if random ninja know about it at this point in the story, the guy who sealed it probably knows a good deal as well.



> And you can't say Yomi Numa>Susanoo. For a start, Yata's Mirror may well neutralise the jutsu. Susanoo may also be able to lift Itachi out of it and if nothing else, Itachi can one shot Jiraiya with Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi and cause a double kill.



I didn't say IMO? If not, than Yomi Numa > Susanoo IMO. Also, Susanoo is made of chakra and can be sunk as well, so not sure how it would pull Itachi out if it was stuck at the same time. I am also not sure how it is physically possible for the shield to work through Itachi's body.

Oh, and I still believe Jiraiya can avoid/dodge/can not die facing Amaterasu.



> Shunshin used by the fastest character in the manga.



Its still shunshin though. Shunshin works the same (at least for the most part) for every ninja. 



> Nobody else can move that fast, and HM Jiraiya hasn't got the feats to put him above Itachi, let alone at that levle. Jiraiya also doesn't know how Amaterasu is cast, so cannot anticipate it or even begin to dodge it.



See above.



> 1. When did we see any proof indicating Oro was slower than base Jiraiya? If anything, their stereotypical archetypes imply the exact opposite. They even share the same speed tier.



That's my fault. I thought Oro had a different DB stat.



> Oro was also not trying to dodge because he couldn't see the attack coming. He wasn't trying to tank it as he never tries to do this, so why else would he just sit there? It's not like he couldn't dodge as he could move the entire snake head out the way or just sink back inside the Yamata.



We have more or less discussed this before. Oro didn't even care that he was stabbed. He didn't even seem to care he was dodging straight at a giant summon who had just blocked something like Kirin and was also capable of decapitating something like his technique with ease.

The point is more or less initiative. Even if we assume he didn't see it coming we have a lot of valid questions.

1. Was he even looking and/or worried about an attack? 

2. Was he prepared to dodge?

3. Could he have dodged if he wanted to?

None of those questions can be cannonically answered but are very valid considering Oro's personality.

So honestly its not even a feat to compare to others IMO. Is Susanoo fast? Sure it is, but it stabbing someone who didn't even care doesn't impress me in the least bit.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke got caught with a Karasu Bunshin + Mangekyou Sharingan combo. Most likely Jiraiya will too.



Sasuke is also an inferior fighter to Jiraiya, so they really shouldn't be compared. Especially considering their fighting style is completely different as well.

Not sure how you came to this conclusion other than your (not too long ago) Sasuke tarding starting up. I guess you have to cover your bases in every thread you can


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 13, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Sasuke is also an inferior fighter to Jiraiya, so they really shouldn't be compared. Especially considering their fighting style is completely different as well.



Jiraiya would probably try to toy with Itachi to see how he fights (remember only Nagato induced the fear in him to take things seriously from the start), which'll cause his downfall with such a combo.



> Not sure how you came to this conclusion other than your (not too long ago) Sasuke tarding starting up. I guess you have to cover your bases in every thread you can



Thought about it. Jiraiya has no real answer to all three Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu. Couple that with Itachi's fact seals and crow bunshin combos with the odd Ninjutsu or two not to mention the fascinating reaction time -- seems too much for the Sennin. Especially the Mangekyou.


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## Cyphon (Oct 13, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya would probably try to toy with Itachi to see how he fights (remember only Nagato induced the fear in him to take things seriously from the start), which'll cause his downfall with such a combo.



Jiraiya posed when he was on Gamaken and was then telling jokes to Ma and Pa after SM. That's serious?

Its never been his downfall.



> Thought about it. Jiraiya has no real answer to all three Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu.



Tsukiyami - Ma and Pa, Detection Barrier/avoid eye contact.

Amaterasu - Shunshin, Seal, Kwarimi etc...maybe even something we don't know about, but its hard to say.

Susanoo - Yomi Numa



> Couple that with Itachi's fact seals and crow bunshin combos with the odd Ninjutsu or two not to mention the fascinating reaction time -- seems too much for the Sennin.



Fast seals are more or less irrelevant since Jiraiya wont try to read them anyway and Jiraiya has KB's of his own + Ma and Pa to cover blind spots.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 13, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> I dunno. I think it really depends on how them feeding him the Sage chakra would effect it. If they are pumping it at the time of use it would never catch him to begin with....I think.
> 
> Though its tough to say.



This makes no sense. Sage chakra's only different to normal chakra in that it's "stronger", an ill defined term, the effects of which it has on a Genjutsu being utterly unknown.

To break Genjutsu you need to disrupt the chakra flow, something Jiraiya himself said. Sage chakra is constant, you have to get it right or you turn into a frog. At best Ni Dai Sennin can break Jiraiya out of Genjutsu, but by the time Tsukuyomi has hit, taken effect and finished it'll be too late.



> You would need to prove this. Raikage was able to shunshin to avoid it and Jiraiya has some incredible speed feats in SM. Plus he SHOULD have pretty much full knowledge on Amaterasu. Granted this can be debated, but I think if random ninja know about it at this point in the story, the guy who sealed it probably knows a good deal as well.



Jiraiya has no amazing speed feats in the manga. Lee has better speed feats. By powerscaling we know he's in Tier 5 (HM Jiraiya), but his lack of feats means there's no way we can logically put him on the same level of speed as Raikage, who moved too fast for a Sharingan to see.

The only things that have done this before are Itachi's hands.

The random Ninja who knew about it only knew enough that black flames were Amaterasu. And he saw more of it than Jiraiya did. There's no reason to believe he knows how Amaterasu is fired. He may have deduced the flames don't go out for ages, and can't be put out via normal means, but has no reason to know how it appears on it's target.



> I didn't say IMO? If not, than Yomi Numa > Susanoo IMO. Also, Susanoo is made of chakra and can be sunk as well, so not sure how it would pull Itachi out if it was stuck at the same time. I am also not sure how it is physically possible for the shield to work through Itachi's body.
> 
> Oh, and I still believe Jiraiya can avoid/dodge/can not die facing Amaterasu.



Mainly because Itachi has walked outside of Susanoo before. Susanoo could simply pull Itachi out. 

And how exactly is Jiraiya going to deal with Amaterasu? Shunshin's a fallacious argument. Not everyone is as good at it as Raikage and Jiraiya lacks the feats to be comperable. He doesn't know how it's fired and so won't know to block LoS or otherwise hide all the time. He doesn't know Itachi's eye bleeds before he uses it and so can't use this to immediately hide behind a frog or something.

So please, tell me how he counters Amaterasu.



> Its still shunshin though. Shunshin works the same (at least for the most part) for every ninja.



Not everyone's as fast as Raikage.



> That's my fault. I thought Oro had a different DB stat.



Fair enough.



> We have more or less discussed this before. Oro didn't even care that he was stabbed. He didn't even seem to care he was dodging straight at a giant summon who had just blocked something like Kirin and was also capable of decapitating something like his technique with ease.
> 
> The point is more or less initiative. Even if we assume he didn't see it coming we have a lot of valid questions.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure you comprehend this.

Oro didn't see a giant sword being stabbed at him, _while he was looking at it._

Oro didn't care he'd _been_ stabbed. Caring before the fact and after are different matters, especially when a character can regenerate. Using a Devil May Cry example, Dante and Vergil regenerate like motherfuckers, but they do their best to avoid being injured. Well, Dante does when facing things that aren't fodder. Oro is similar to this. Except he's never simply allowed anything to hit him. He has never tried to tank an attack, but always to dodge it.

Why believe he was "being cocky" and therefore his reactions disappeared momentarily, or that he randomly thought he'd try testing his regenerative abilities out against a guy who'd beaten him like he was an Academy student years before and who Oro himself had admitted was outright stronger?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 13, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Jiraiya posed when he was on Gamaken and was then telling jokes to Ma and Pa after SM. That's serious?



He said he needs to take things seriously from the start. By going into Sennin Mode.



> Its never been his downfall.



Well then, he's not faced an opponent like Itachi before.



> Tsukiyami - Ma and Pa, Detection Barrier/avoid eye contact.



If he does that then he sets himself up for Amaterasu, Karasu Bunshins could also distract, in fact from what we know the actual crows could cast Genjutus provided that the bunshin isn't destroyed.



> Amaterasu - Shunshin, Seal, Kwarimi etc...maybe even something we don't know about, but its hard to say.



Shunshin, maybe if Jiraiya had reflexes comparable to Minato, then had the ability to further increase those reflexes.

Seal, not sufficient, wouldn't have the time with the seal he's seen.

Kwarimi, apparently easy to detect hinted when he said Orochimaru's one was hard to detect.




> Susanoo - Yomi Numa



Then there's the blade sealing the chakra with the built in sealing jutsu it has.



> Fast seals are more or less irrelevant since Jiraiya wont try to read them anyway and Jiraiya has KB's of his own + Ma and Pa to cover blind spots.



Fast seals help Itachi perform a series of jutsu. In this case he could make a few Karasu Bunshins, which could prove useful if they're destroyed.


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## Cyphon (Oct 13, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> This makes no sense. Sage chakra's only different to normal chakra in that it's "stronger", an ill defined term, the effects of which it has on a Genjutsu being utterly unknown.



So how does what I said make no sense?



> To break Genjutsu you need to disrupt the chakra flow, something Jiraiya himself said. Sage chakra is constant, you have to get it right or you turn into a frog. At best Ni Dai Sennin can break Jiraiya out of Genjutsu, but by the time Tsukuyomi has hit, taken effect and finished it'll be too late.



For Jiraiya sage chakra isn't constant though, which is why he takes on the appearance of a frog....or at least partially. IIRC it means his chakra is constantly unbalanced, just not to a great degree.



> Jiraiya has no amazing speed feats in the manga. Lee has better speed feats. By powerscaling we know he's in Tier 5 (HM Jiraiya), but his lack of feats means there's no way we can logically put him on the same level of speed as Raikage, who moved too fast for a Sharingan to see.



His fight vs Pain showed very good speed feats, not sure what fight you witnessed. Anyway, Raikage used Shunshin which moves the user from everyone's sight be it Sharingan or not. The Sharingan being able to see ahead is only able to predict where the body will be etc....so Raikage was too fast for that, but all he did in the beginning to dodge Amaterasu was to wait for it and then to simply Shunshin. It then removed him from Sasuke's LOS. It was more about timing then speed. 



> The random Ninja who knew about it only knew enough that black flames were Amaterasu. And he saw more of it than Jiraiya did. There's no reason to believe he knows how Amaterasu is fired. He may have deduced the flames don't go out for ages, and can't be put out via normal means, but has no reason to know how it appears on it's target.



The ninja wasn't random, it was Raikage's guard and he knew a lot more than that. He apparently to knew the extent of skill to which Itachi could use it and everything.



> Mainly because Itachi has walked outside of Susanoo before. Susanoo could simply pull Itachi out.



The scan you provided shows him inside of it. When was he out of it again?



> And how exactly is Jiraiya going to deal with Amaterasu? Shunshin's a fallacious argument. Not everyone is as good at it as Raikage and Jiraiya lacks the feats to be comperable.



See above. Shunshin seems to be a perfectly valid argument. Again though, it can greatly depend on timing and knowledge.



> He doesn't know how it's fired and so won't know to block LoS or otherwise hide all the time.



We don't know what he knows. I believe he does know how its fired and maybe even more than that. 



> Oro didn't see a giant sword being stabbed at him, _while he was looking at it._



Looking at the scans it just appears to me he simply didn't care. I don't see much evidence of him putting any effort into avoiding the sword. Simply coming straight towards and Itachi and having a convo.



> Oro didn't care he'd _been_ stabbed. Caring before the fact and after are different matters, especially when a character can regenerate.



Again, see my old argument. If he doesn't care that he gets stabbed nor does he even care what just happened to a jutsu like YnJ, he obviously wasn't putting much effort into avoiding it. Mostly attributed to the fact he has super regeneration and such. Quite different from the more mortal characters like Jiraiya.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He said he needs to take things seriously from the start. By going into Sennin Mode.



And then decided to have fun with Ma and Pa. I still don't see your point.



> Well then, he's not faced an opponent like Itachi before.



Actually he has. Not in an all out battle mind you.



> If he does that then he sets himself up for Amaterasu, Karasu Bunshins could also distract,



Jiraiya has Ma and Pa or KB's of his own to handle other KB's. He could also just simply have Ma and Pa constantly disrupt his chakra.



> in fact from what we know the actual crows could cast Genjutus provided that the bunshin isn't destroyed.



We have never been shown or told anything like this. All I remember is Itachi having Naruto in a genjutsu and then Naruto seeing a crow with Sharingan indicating that he was in fact in one.



> Shunshin, maybe if Jiraiya had reflexes comparable to Minato, then had the ability to further increase those reflexes.



He may, we really don't know if Minato was faster than Jiraiya. We know that his Hiraishin is faster, but than isn't Shunshin and it also requires a seal.



> Seal, not sufficient, wouldn't have the time with the seal he's seen.



It really depends. When Sasuke hit the Samurai he lived for multiple chapters while being on fire with Amaterasu. Clothing removal was enough to save him.



> Kwarimi, apparently easy to detect hinted when he said Orochimaru's one was hard to detect.



Yeah, he can detect that it happens but that still means Jiraiya would have avoided Amaterasu.



> Then there's the blade sealing the chakra with the built in sealing jutsu it has.



So then Jiraiya just uses a giant one to sink Susanoo and Itachi


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## Soul (Oct 13, 2009)

Turrin said:


> I'm Not even sure Itachi can use Crow Clone w/o Prep-time to find Crows and Project his Chakra at them as it would make no sense to be able to do this technique in the heat of battle unless he had already gathered crows.



So you are saying that he needs prep time to use a Karasu Bunshin?



> Hence it would seem Crows need to be present unless you believe Itachi could magic them into existence. I mean its possible as Kwarimi makes no sense ether most of the time as the log appears out of nowhere, but then it just seems like an extreme PNJ technique like Kwarimi, in-fact even worse because it requires dozens of crows while Kwarimi requires just one log, it would at least seem that way to me.



This is as saying as Orochimaru or Sasuke need to prep their Snakes jutsus, while I am sure that this is wrong.


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## Harry Balzac (Oct 13, 2009)

Jiraiya cannot dodge no amaterasu, he aint no raikage. Jiriaya is slow as fuck even in HM. Itachi will destroy this guy. Jiraiya was just a slight better version of naruto. And we know what itachi has done to naruto multiple times. Jiraiya will just last a bit more than naruto, then fall victim.

Sorry, but this old ballsack cannot match itachi


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 13, 2009)

The deal breaker for Itachi is Susano'o, but that's under the assumption that Jiraiya can deal with Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. As long as Jiraiya is in HM, I don't think Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu would be factors simply because of range and both techniques require Itachi to be standing still (Amaterasu, more-so). That and we can safely assume that unlike Kakashi and Sasuke, HM Jiraiya would have enhanced endurance against Tsukiyomi.

Itachi and Jiraiya, despite being ranked equally are diametrically opposed in the manner they fight and the nature of their techniques. Itachi has an advantage due to his MS, generally, Susano'o. I don't think Jiriaya would lose to simply Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi. But, there is without a doubt that the more skillful/tactful shinobi out of the two is Itachi.


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## Ra (Oct 13, 2009)

Jiraiya has shown no speed feats, that is capable of escaping the sharingan sight. 



> I'm Not even sure Itachi can use *Crow Clone w/o Prep-time to find Crows* and Project his Chakra at them as it would make no sense to be able to do this technique in the heat of battle unless he had already gathered crows.
> 
> Hence it would seem Crows need to be present unless you believe Itachi could magic them into existence. I mean its possible as Kwarimi makes no sense ether most of the time as the log appears out of nowhere, but then it just seems like an extreme PNJ technique like Kwarimi, in-fact even worse because it requires dozens of crows while Kwarimi requires just one log, it would at least seem that way to me.





Why don't 20 crows just fly out his jacket, when he is in the heat of battle? I'm sure they are pretty un-comfty in Itachi's hot jacket and constantly juggled around when itachi is fighting in all.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2009)

> So you are saying that he needs prep time to use a Karasu Bunshin?


It Would only Make sense that way. Not that everything has to make Sense, but i would see it more of PNJ then like Kwarimi is. 



> This is as saying as Orochimaru or Sasuke need to prep their Snakes jutsus, while I am sure that this is wrong.


Difference is Oro's Body is Made out of Snakes when Sasuke Absorbed Orochimaru he was able to also form Snakes through the CS drawing on Oro's White Snake Powers. Also Oro's Snake Hands Says nothing about projecting his chakra at existing snakes. 



> Why don't 20 crows just fly out his jacket, when he is in the heat of battle? I'm sure they are pretty un-comfty in Itachi's hot jacket and constantly juggled around when itachi is fighting in all.


Yes which is exactly why it makes no sense for him to be able to do it in the heat of a battle w/o prep-time as he would have to carry crows in his jacket and it would be stupid like you yourself point out. But who the fuck knows Itachi did pull out hundreds of shuriken out of his cloak like some cracked out magician. Anything is possible with PNJ.


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## Ra (Oct 14, 2009)

> Yes which is exactly why it makes no sense for him to be able to do it in the heat of a battle w/o prep-time as he would have to carry crows in his jacket and it would be stupid like you yourself point out. But who the fuck knows Itachi did pull out hundreds of shuriken out of his cloak like some cracked out magician. Anything is possible with PNJ.



Essentially you're saying there should be no ninjutsus because they initially start from nowhere.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2009)

> Essentially you're saying there should be no ninjutsus because they initially start from nowhere.


Let me explain the difference between normal Ninjutsu and crow clone. In normal ninjutsu a person creates the effects producing them themselves. In the case of Crow Clone Itachi projects his chakra at already existing entities(Crows) to form the bushin. Being able to do crow clone in the heat of battle is like if Ino wore a cloak and an person or animal burst forth from it being controlled by Ino's mind transfer.  It makes no sense. 

It makes far more sense that Itachi actually spends time locating Crows and Prepping the Technique projecting the chakra at the crows to create his bushin then sending them to do his task. After all this would merit the Technique taking less Chakra in exchange for extra prep-time while Kage Bushin takes more chakra in exchange for no prep-time, thus also justifying the rank difference with Crow Bushin being C-rank and Kage Bushin being B-rank.

But as i said before not everything makes sense as Kwarimi makes no sense half the time, but in the case of Jutsu like Kwarimi which make no sense its more of a Technique that has no practical use in battle and is just a Technique that allows said character to Survive in a situation were he would normally suffer massive damage or be killed, which on this forum is referred to as PNJ.


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## Soul (Oct 14, 2009)

Turrin said:


> It Would only Make sense that way.



Not really; he could also have the ability to use them 



> Difference is Oro's Body is Made out of Snakes when Sasuke Absorbed Orochimaru he was able to also form Snakes through the CS drawing on Oro's White Snake Powers. Also Oro's Snake Hands Says nothing about projecting his chakra at existing snakes.



Maybe we could consider that; but what about Anko?
She didn't absorbed Orochimaru.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 14, 2009)

Anko had the crused seal.


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## Soul (Oct 14, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Anko had the crused seal.



And the Cursed Seal gave the Sound 5 the ability to use those snakes?

Read the argument before just quoting.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2009)

> Maybe we could consider that; but what about Anko?
> She didn't absorbed Orochimaru.


There are two things to consider here

1-I Believe it was stated that Oro Performed Experiments on Anko. These could have allowed her to do Snake Hands

2-The Snakes may be Constructs of Chakra that are created by the user. The difference with the Crow Clone is that these can't be constructs of Chakra since the data-book goes out of its way to state that these are already existing crows that Itachi is Projecting his chakra at to form the crow clone.


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## Ra (Oct 14, 2009)

> Let me explain the difference between normal Ninjutsu and crow clone. In normal ninjutsu a person creates the effects producing them themselves. In the case of Crow Clone Itachi projects his chakra at already existing entities(Crows) to form the bushin. Being able to do crow clone in the heat of battle is like if Ino wore a cloak and an person or animal burst forth from it being controlled by Ino's mind transfer. It makes no sense.
> 
> It makes far more sense that Itachi actually spends time locating Crows and Prepping the Technique projecting the chakra at the crows to create his bushin then sending them to do his task. After all this would merit the Technique taking less Chakra in exchange for extra prep-time while Kage Bushin takes more chakra in exchange for no prep-time, thus also justifying the rank difference with Crow Bushin being C-rank and Kage Bushin being B-rank.
> 
> But as i said before not everything makes sense as Kwarimi makes no sense half the time, but in the case of Jutsu like Kwarimi which make no sense its more of a Technique that has no practical use in battle and is just a Technique that allows said character to Survive in a situation were he would normally suffer massive damage or be killed, which on this forum is referred to as PNJ.



You're really trying to bring logic to a shonen?


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## Soul (Oct 14, 2009)

Turrin said:


> 1-I Believe it was stated that Oro Performed Experiments on Anko. These could have allowed her to do Snake Hands



I don't remember this one.



> 2-The Snakes may be Constructs of Chakra that are created by the user.



Isn't that even more haxxed than what you suggest that Itachi doesn't do?


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2009)

> You're really trying to bring logic to a shonen?


There is bringing real world logic into a Shounnen and then there is bringing the actually logic the manga presents us with into the equation. We have never been told its possible to magic living separate crows into existence and project ones chakra to them in the heat of battle that just stupid. Even more stupid then a log appearing out of nowhere. 



> I don't remember this one.


Oro Gave anko the Heaven CS along with 10 other Kids that in and off itself was an experiment to see the effects it had on a Shinobi and what the Survival rate was as well as what qualities increase the Survival rate. My point is what's to say he didn't perform more Experiments on her then during the time he was her master that allows her to perform hidden snake hands?



> Isn't that even more haxxed than what you suggest that Itachi doesn't do?


How is Creating Chakra Construct Snakes Hax? Its chakra taking the form of an animal that performs a single action at the users command. Its really not hax and it make sense within the confines of the manga where creating almost anything is possible with chakra.

What doesn't make sense is that Itachi isn't creating the crows with his Chakra he needs to have Actual living Crows present to project his chakra at. Its Hax-PNJ as shit if  i am to believe Itachi has enough crows hidden in his cloak to be able to form multiple crow clones in the heat of battle. Not to mention the fact that one would see the Crows forming into the Bushin rather then the bushin appearing in an instant which it does if that was not Genjutsu.


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## geminis (Oct 14, 2009)

I can't believe...after the years of strife and grief the infamous Jiraya/Itachi vs threads still continue! 

Many have perished due to these threads being duplicated.

Godspeed my friends, godspeed.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 14, 2009)

This battle is never going to end. Never so long as the forces of Jiraiya and Itachi remains strong it shall never end.


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## Cyphon (Oct 14, 2009)

Just so you guys know they are able to summon snakes because they signed the contract. Anko most likely signed the contract at some point as well.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 14, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> And then decided to have fun with Ma and Pa. I still don't see your point.



The point was that was the only opponent that made him take things seriously. You can't dismiss that, clearly.





> Actually he has. Not in an all out battle mind you.



Name once instance. Before you mention the hotel, Kisame already implied that Itachi could've taken him back then.



> Jiraiya has Ma and Pa or KB's of his own to handle other KB's. He could also just simply have Ma and Pa constantly disrupt his chakra.



Ma and Pa, if they constantly disrupt Jiraiya's chakra, Sennin Mode will be hard to maintain given that they are fused with him to maintain an indefinite Sennin Mode.

But Itachi's Karasu Bunshins being defeated would result to crows blinding Jiraiya and setting himself up for a Mangekyou shot.



> We have never been shown or told anything like this. All I remember is Itachi having Naruto in a genjutsu and then Naruto seeing a crow with Sharingan indicating that he was in fact in one.



We've seen a crow use Sharingan Genjutsu when the Bunshin released crows.
here
this

The bottom left panel within the first link suggests Naruto noticed something. And the top right panels indicate the crow with the Sharingan put him under the Genjutsu.

Itachi didn't use any finger or eye Genjutsu; it wasn't indicated. The crow one was.



> He may, we really don't know if Minato was faster than Jiraiya. We know that his Hiraishin is faster, but than isn't Shunshin and it also requires a seal.



"He may", "we really don't know" -- indicating that this is a conjecture [nothing supports it] not a fact. Thus cannot be passed as fact. Perhaps if Jiraiya had control over the frog katas as Naruto did then he could've countered Amaterasu -- but he does not.



> It really depends. When Sasuke hit the Samurai he lived for multiple chapters while being on fire with Amaterasu. Clothing removal was enough to save him.



Depends on what? If he he can get a scroll out while being engulfed in flames? That Samurai couldn't move when he was hit.

Even more so there's a difference between letting Amaterasu run wild [not Itachi letting it run wild not focusing on it as well as Sasuke] and focusing it [notice Sasuke's flames were complete engulfed and half of Sasuke's body was burnt off.

Long story short the manga has shown Amaterasu incinerates almost instantly when the flames are being focused rather than being left around. Another example is how Itachi got out of the toad stomach by _focusing_ Amaterasu.



> Yeah, he can detect that it happens but that still means Jiraiya would have avoided Amaterasu.



Actually it doesn't. Unless Jiraiya has a high level Kwarimi above or equal to Orochimaru's one that Itachi won't be able to detect so easily, then this approach isn't the way.



> So then Jiraiya just uses a giant one to sink Susanoo and Itachi



There's the matter of the sword sealing that jutsu away. The Yamata no Jutsu was a Ninjutsu, Totsuka sealed it away; the swamp of the underworld is a Ninjutsu too.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 14, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There's the matter of the sword sealing that jutsu away. The Yamata no Jutsu was a Ninjutsu, Totsuka sealed it away; the swamp of the underworld is a Ninjutsu too.





Yamata no Orochi was not seal Oro's *soul* was. Some of the snakes survived. If you notice. Weather they were burned later is a different case.




> DB3
> 
> -The sake flowing out of the gourd assumes the shape of a sword, becoming the Totsuka! In addition, *the souls absorbed by it are sealed there.
> *
> ...




It can't seal away inanimate objects.


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## Cyphon (Oct 14, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The point was that was the only opponent that made him take things seriously. You can't dismiss that, clearly.



He fought Oro seriously and he was serious vs Itachi and Kisame. He immediately told them he would kill them.



> Name once instance. Before you mention the hotel, Kisame already implied that Itachi could've taken him back then.



1. Kisame never implied that. He could have simply meant Itachi could have grabbed Naruto. Its not certain, you are just assuming.

2. Oro, Itachi and Pain are all people around a similar level Jiraiya has fought or faced and he has taken them all seriously.



> Ma and Pa, if they constantly disrupt Jiraiya's chakra, Sennin Mode will be hard to maintain given that they are fused with him to maintain an indefinite Sennin Mode.



Not really. They are masters at it and Jiraiya isn't bad. If he already turns frog like and they or he himself can stop from going all the way beyond then they can easily just keep shifting the balance from high to low.



> But Itachi's Karasu Bunshins being defeated would result to crows blinding Jiraiya and setting himself up for a Mangekyou shot.



1. Itachi would have to have crows around to even use the jutsu

2. Why couldn't Jiraiya simply throw a smoke bomb down or move somewhere else when the crows disperse?



> The bottom left panel within the first link suggests Naruto noticed something. And the top right panels indicate the crow with the Sharingan put him under the Genjutsu.



Again, it actually doesn't. The first thing Naruto saw were Itachi's eyes and it is more likely that he was in a genjutsu right away. 

Not to mention the timing doesn't make sense with the panels. As soon as we see the crows eye Itachi says "you are already within my genjutsu". So it is more likely the crows eye was basically just showing Naruto that he was already in one.



> Itachi didn't use any finger or eye Genjutsu; it wasn't indicated. The crow one was.



this

It could just as easily have happened right here.



> "He may", "we really don't know" -- indicating that this is a conjecture [nothing supports it] not a fact. Thus cannot be passed as fact. Perhaps if Jiraiya had control over the frog katas as Naruto did then he could've countered Amaterasu -- but he does not.



Nothing supports him not being able to dodge it either. We have seen a fast character (Raikage) dodge it simply by using Shunshin. Jiraiya has "enormous" amounts of chakra as well and is tier 4.5 in speed. Even Sasuke was able to evade Amaterasu for a little while. Now we are talking SM which makes Jiraiya (seemingly) a lot faster.

Good enough evidence to make a reasonable claim.



> Depends on what? If he he can get a scroll out while being engulfed in flames? That Samurai couldn't move when he was hit.



No, depends on the situation. If he were to say use his hair defense to tank the hit and then cut his hair off etc....basically like Raikage did except this wouldn't be a big hindrance to Jiraiya later on in the fight. 

Trust me, I know it isn't logical that he could be burning and still focus on filling out a seal.



> Actually it doesn't. Unless Jiraiya has a high level Kwarimi above or equal to Orochimaru's one that Itachi won't be able to detect so easily, then this approach isn't the way.



You do know what Kawarimi is right? As soon as an attack hits you replace your body. If you time it right it is impossible not to work. Oro's technique isn't even a Kawarimi, he actually makes a whole new body.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 14, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Yamata no Orochi was not seal Oro's *soul* was. Some of the snakes survived. If you notice. Weather they were burned later is a different case.




Regardless he did seal a Ninjutsu: the Yamata no Jutsu as well as its user.




> It can't seal away inanimate objects.



Databook doesn't imply so. Also what do you make of the Yamata no jutsu?



Cyphon said:


> He fought Oro seriously and he was serious vs Itachi and Kisame. He immediately told them he would kill them.



Of course he was serious; yet we're shown that Nagato was the only person to scare him enough to take it seriously _from_ the beginning. Him taking it seriously is Sennin Mode. He never did this with Orochimaru or Itachi+Kisame.



> 1. Kisame never implied that. He could have simply meant Itachi could have grabbed Naruto. Its not certain, you are just assuming.



Actually, thats you assuming. He implied with Itachi's power he could've taken Jiraiya back at the hotel. Remember the talk after they escaped?



> 2. Oro, Itachi and Pain are all people around a similar level Jiraiya has fought or faced and he has taken them all seriously.



Orochimaru may be similar, but Itachi has shown he isn't on Jiraiya's level but above it and Pain has proved he's miles above the Sennin (Naruto surpassing Minato by a decent amount to face him is a hint to that).

He's not taken them all seriously from the beginning as he did Nagato.



> Not really. They are masters at it and Jiraiya isn't bad. If he already turns frog like and they or he himself can stop from going all the way beyond then they can easily just keep shifting the balance from high to low.



We're told Jiraiya needed both of them to retain a fused Sennin Mode. Going by that, they can't keep switching. He's not Naruto that could've used one.



> 1. Itachi would have to have crows around to even use the jutsu



Not stopped him before, see the battle with Sasuke. Probably has a contract with them, makes sense as they're always there when he makes clones in part two.



> 2. Why couldn't Jiraiya simply throw a smoke bomb down or move somewhere else when the crows disperse?



Why couldn't Itachi simply just keep sending crows with his Doujutsu to cast any Sharingan/MS jutsu via them?



> Again, it actually doesn't. The first thing Naruto saw were Itachi's eyes and it is more likely that he was in a genjutsu right away.



If Naruto saw Itachi's eyes like that, the manga would've emphasized it with a panel or two. Instead it emphasized him noticing something which turned out to be the eye of a crow with the Sharingan.

The proof is in the links I provided.



> Not to mention the timing doesn't make sense with the panels. As soon as we see the crows eye Itachi says "you are already within my genjutsu". So it is more likely the crows eye was basically just showing Naruto that he was already in one.



Yes he said this after the crow with Itachi's chakra cast a Genjutsu on Naruto.


> Reflexes that compare to this huh, yeah, where?
> 
> It could just as easily have happened right here.



Reflexes that compare to this huh, yeah, where?

Indicates that Naruto wasn't in Itachi's line of sight in that. Also Itachi commended him on being aware about how to combat the Sharingan pages later; the crow is the only logical conclusion.



> Nothing supports him not being able to dodge it either. We have seen a fast character (Raikage) dodge it simply by using Shunshin. Jiraiya has "enormous" amounts of chakra as well and is tier 4.5 in speed. Even Sasuke was able to evade Amaterasu for a little while. Now we are talking SM which makes Jiraiya (seemingly) a lot faster.



Actually we have more than enough evidence that he can't dodge it. The Raikage used a high level of Shunshin, plus his shroud plus reflexes equal to Minato plus the ability to tap into Biju level chakra.

Only the Raikage has shown the power to dodge it. Thus assuming Jiraiya can is nothing more than a conjecture.




> No, depends on the situation. If he were to say use his hair defense to tank the hit and then cut his hair off etc....basically like Raikage did except this wouldn't be a big hindrance to Jiraiya later on in the fight.



Only Jiraiya's hair would lead to him if Itachi catches it, remember the Katon.



> You do know what Kawarimi is right? As soon as an attack hits you replace your body. If you time it right it is impossible not to work. Oro's technique isn't even a Kawarimi, he actually makes a whole new body.



Hence its undetectable. Meaning Itachi implied that normal ones can be detected.


-----------------------------------------------------------------



Just to solidify that the crow with the Sharingan isn't a Genjutsu:

Link removed

There it is, a crow with the Sharingan.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 14, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Of course he was serious; yet we're shown that Nagato was the only person to scare him enough to take it seriously _from_ the beginning. Him taking it seriously is Sennin Mode. He never did this with Orochimaru or Itachi+Kisame.



Well, it really doesn't matter anyway. This thread starts him in SM.



> Actually, thats you assuming. He implied with Itachi's power he could've taken Jiraiya back at the hotel. Remember the talk after they escaped?



No, it is you who is assuming. He never finished the sentence so it could have implied either thing. You just guess 1 way and I just guess the other. The only issue is that you try to pass it off like it is actually fact or was actually said....I don't.



> Orochimaru may be similar, but Itachi has shown he isn't on Jiraiya's level but above



Proof please.

Manga + DB points to you being wrong.



> and Pain has proved he's miles above the Sennin (Naruto surpassing Minato by a decent amount to face him is a hint to that).



Well, if you honestly believe Naruto surpassed either Minato or Jiraiya there is no need to discuss this. If Pain showed he was miles above Jiraiya why did he admit Jiraiya could have killed him? Surely someone MILES weaker wouldn't stand a chance no?

Anyway, I am about 90% sure Naruto only surpassed them as far as where he has taken jutsu and SM. Otherwise they have better techniques, are smarter and more versatile etc...



> We're told Jiraiya needed both of them to retain a fused Sennin Mode. Going by that, they can't keep switching. He's not Naruto that could've used one.



No. We are told Jiraiya could do SM himself. He used them because they can keep him in it permanently (more or less). Pa even told Naruto he needed someone to fuse with.

Do you even read the manga or have you become a fanfic writer like the rest of the Uchitards?

I am not trying to be mean but please answer this. If you are simply going to ignore the manga then I will no longer debate with you. I already debate with enough people who do that, no need to another "writer" to the list.



> Not stopped him before, see the battle with Sasuke. Probably has a contract with them, makes sense as they're always there when he makes clones in part two.



Meh, seems like error on Kishi's part more or less. Maybe he can summon them, who knows.



> Why couldn't Itachi simply just keep sending crows with his Doujutsu to cast any Sharingan/MS jutsu via them?



Because he can't. There is no such thing.



> If Naruto saw Itachi's eyes like that, the manga would've emphasized it with a panel or two. Instead it emphasized him noticing something which turned out to be the eye of a crow with the Sharingan.



Again, you are merely speculating. The crows were emphasized to show that Naruto was already in a genjutsu. Also, the eyes were emphasized. There was a whole panel for the eyes and then Naruto going "Sharingan!!".

So yeah, I will need more than just guesswork. There is nothing in the DB about such a technique either.



> Actually we have more than enough evidence that he can't dodge it.



Provide this please.



> The Raikage used a high level of Shunshin, plus his shroud plus reflexes equal to Minato plus the ability to tap into Biju level chakra.



Can you show me where it says he used some special or high level shunshin? All I remember is them mentioning regular old shunshin.

Also, Jiraiya has tons of chakra as well, even more in SM. I still see no big difference.



> Only the Raikage has shown the power to dodge it. Thus assuming Jiraiya can is nothing more than a conjecture.



It is also conjuncture to say he can't dodge it. Its all guesswork, I simply provided a bit more evidence. 



> Only Jiraiya's hair would lead to him if Itachi catches it, remember the Katon.



It wouldn't lead to him like that. His hair becomes thick and as hard as steel so if it hit the front of his hair it would have to burn through and spread. He would have time to remove his hair before then. Like I said, the Samurai lived for chapters without taking any damage.



> Hence its undetectable. Meaning Itachi implied that normal ones can be detected.



Well no shit. They leave a block of wood behind, if you can't detect that you would have to be blind.



> Just to solidify that the crow with the Sharingan isn't a Genjutsu:
> 
> and again.
> 
> There it is, a crow with the Sharingan.



Whoever said the crow didn't have a Sharingan?


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Oct 14, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Regardless he did seal a Ninjutsu: the Yamata no Jutsu as well as its user.




No it just sealed Orochimaru.






> Databook doesn't imply so. Also what do you make of the Yamata no jutsu?




Some thing made from Orochimaru's flesh. It is it's body you know the body is joined with the soul. So where the soul went the body went too.



The Swamp has no soul.

Look at the chopped up pieces, and the snakes the head that are seperate Poofs out of existance






> Of course he was serious; yet we're shown that Nagato was the only person to scare him enough to take it seriously _from_ the beginning. Him taking it seriously is Sennin Mode. He never did this with Orochimaru or Itachi+Kisame.




Against Orochimaru his chakra was fucked he would have turned into a toad instantly. In Kisame + Itachi, Jiraiya didn't need it he showed he was completely capable or saving Naruto and Sasuke at the same time. 




> Actually, thats you assuming. He implied with Itachi's power he could've taken Jiraiya back at the hotel. Remember the talk after they escaped?




And Jiraiya could have also taken out Itachi. Too as he hinted.




> Orochimaru may be similar, but Itachi has shown he isn't on Jiraiya's level but above it and Pain has proved he's miles above the Sennin (Naruto surpassing Minato by a decent amount to face him is a hint to that).



Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in Sage Mode not as an overral Ninja.

And don't bring up Fukasaku's statement. Fukasaku is Naruto and Jiraiya's *senjutsu* teacher not Ninjutsu, teacher hence he has no right to claim that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in ninjutsu.


Jiraiya has prooven that he is above Itachi, if you can proove any move Itachi has that Jiraiya could not counter. 

And Pain outright stated that Jiraiya would have beaten Pain with knowledge.




> He's not taken them all seriously from the beginning as he did Nagato.



Yes, he did, he had stated how they both were on another level. He didnot take them lightly either.



> We're told Jiraiya needed both of them to retain a fused Sennin Mode. Going by that, they can't keep switching. He's not Naruto that could've used one.



Actuall he can use Sage Mode it may not be like Naruto but it is implied he could use it.

Jiraiya only failed at balancing Natural energy* properly*. It is implied he could use HM without Ma and Pa but needs them to maintain it. 




> Not stopped him before, see the battle with Sasuke. Probably has a contract with them, makes sense as they're always there when he makes clones in part two.



Even then he didnot use them in battle. Like the way you people imply. He used the clone in a similar method to Naruto. Use it like an attack. He didnot cast any Illusion at Sasuke. Jiraiya can also use clones too.




> Why couldn't Itachi simply just keep sending crows with his Doujutsu to cast any Sharingan/MS jutsu via them?



Because the genjutsu has to be weak. It is a C-ranked jutsu takes up less chakra. The stronger the jutsu the more chakra it consumes. To use something like this against an opponent of Jiraiya caliber would be foolish. He is not pre SM Naruto. He has excellent chakra control.Learning SM, using a onehanded doublerasengan instantly simultaniously  something that requires naruto SM to accomplish, is a testimony of his excellent chakra control.


How do you know, absorbing Natural Energy could potentially break him out of any genjutsu. It changes him into a frog, gives him froggish features his *body structure* completely change, hence his chakra circulatory system *would* have to change to compensate to the different frame. Hence his chakra would be disrupted enough to break him out of the genjutsu.



> If Naruto saw Itachi's eyes like that, the manga would've emphasized it with a panel or two. Instead it emphasized him noticing something which turned out to be the eye of a crow with the Sharingan.



Regardless Jiraiya could break out of the genjutsu. How do you know Itachi doesnot have to stand still if he wants to use genjutsu like that. In all the instance where Itachi used genjutsu like this. He was almost always stationary. In Kakashi's case he was immobile enough for Naruto to kill his shotan.


> The proof is in the links I provided.



It also emphasized he looked into Itachi's eyes in the begining. 




> Yes he said this after the crow with Itachi's chakra cast a Genjutsu on Naruto.



He said you are already in a genjutsu. And now tell me what does Itachi do if Jiraiya creates the toad gourd barrier. AS Itachi is comming in for the kill.


using a onehanded doublerasengan instantly simultaniously 




> Actually we have more than enough evidence that he can't dodge it. The Raikage used a high level of Shunshin, plus his shroud plus reflexes equal to Minato plus the ability to tap into Biju level chakra.




He used a Normal Sushin, combined with the reflexes. Jiraiya is a long range shinobi. By if Itachi comes close to Jiraiya, Jiraiya can just push him back. And Jiraiya himself has bijuu level chakra. Implied by Pain.


Sasuke used Amaterasu Gaara, blocked it


Jiraiya could use something similar like with this.

It is not difficult to imagine that is could be used in front of the black fireball, and then cast back at Itachi.

Lesser verson's don't even require a handseal.
It is not difficult to imagine this jutsu can't wrap around Jiraiya or protect him.




> Only the Raikage has shown the power to dodge it. Thus assuming Jiraiya can is nothing more than a conjecture.



HM Jiraiya can, he has the speed fleats. IF not block it atleast.



> Only Jiraiya's hair would lead to him if Itachi catches it, remember the Katon.



Jiraiya can make his hair grow redicoulously long, It is as strong as *steel* was able to crush the exoskeleton of a giant crab instantly. Steel was the same thing that Samurai had that blockes a direct hit of Amaterasu.



> Hence its undetectable. Meaning Itachi implied that normal ones can be detected.



No it isn't Killer bee was not detected. Madara didnot detect it. Itachi cannot detect it unless he has shown some fleats like that. 


-----------------------------------------------------------------




> Just to solidify that the crow with the Sharingan isn't a Genjutsu:
> 
> 
> Sasuke used Amaterasu Gaara, blocked it
> ...



And what would that do.





Explain to me how Itachi can escape the toad gourd barrier, as a last minute wtfsurprise. or a Yomi Numa, which has never shown to fail. Jiraiya used it while using a giant b-ranked Katon jutsu simultaniously.

Lesser verson's don't even require a handseal.
Lesser verson's don't even require a handseal.

His mouth was still full.

Jiraiya could easily trap Itachi's foot and murder him with that Katon at the Same time. 

Human Realm pain who blocked Hm Jiraiya's punch was unable to get out.
Lesser verson's don't even require a handseal.
And he created a swamp in a celing  

That goes against all laws of physics, and goes against gravity, And still Human realm was sucked in.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 14, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> No, it is you who is assuming. He never finished the sentence so it could have implied either thing. You just guess 1 way and I just guess the other. The only issue is that you try to pass it off like it is actually fact or was actually said....I don't.



The context suggested Itachi could've done it. The incomplete sentence implies that to.

Unless you think _"why is a retreat necessary for *you...*"_ has another meaning.
Lesser verson's don't even require a handseal.

Or as a translation by njt has it:
_"
Why do we need to retreat?

You could (*note it would end in *handle them* or something like that)"_

*Comicbook Mobi... for free. *

Or as the more up to date translation by Gottheim has it:
_"Kisame: Why do we need to retreat...?/Someone like you could have..."_

All points to Itachi being able to take Jiraiya.



> Proof please.
> 
> Manga + DB points to you being wrong.



Manga proves me right actually. Itachi via the proof was implied to be above. And Orochimaru was the only one around Jiraiya's level.



> Well, if you honestly believe Naruto surpassed either Minato or Jiraiya there is no need to discuss this. If Pain showed he was miles above Jiraiya why did he admit Jiraiya could have killed him? Surely someone MILES weaker wouldn't stand a chance no?



Miles above, well you see Pain mentioned something about a praise, which was confirmed to be a praise when it turned out the God Realm was not utilized.

Also the manga does imply Naruto surpassed the Sennin and former Hokage. So there shouldn't be any question on it as there shouldn't have been when he surpassed Kakashi.



> Anyway, I am about 90% sure Naruto only surpassed them as far as where he has taken jutsu and SM. Otherwise they have better techniques, are smarter and more versatile etc...



Jiraiya says the quantity of jutsu doesn't matter for shinobi, just the guts to never give up -- seems to have gotten Naruto further than Minato and Jiraiya in power. Also if it was just in their jutsu/SM then a direct reference would've been made to them rather than saying those that came before him with the images of Minato and Jiraiya indicating [them].



> No. We are told Jiraiya could do SM himself. He used them because they can keep him in it permanently (more or less). Pa even told Naruto he needed someone to fuse with.



We're told:



			
				cnet said:
			
		

> Fukasaku: Indeed, the final Sennin Mode form that Jiraiya-chan achieved *required *both I and my wife to ride upon each of his shoulders.





			
				HissouBuraiKen said:
			
		

> Jiraiya-chan *had ta have* me AND Ma on his shoulders ta achieve th' final level 'a Sage Mode.



Both translations suggest you're wrong.




> I am not trying to be mean but please answer this. If you are simply going to ignore the manga then I will no longer debate with you. I already debate with enough people who do that, no need to another "writer" to the list.



I can show implications and translations for all the arguments I've made if you really need to see them.




> Because he can't. There is no such thing.



Apparently he can, given he can give crows his chakra, thus his Sharingan. But he doesn't do it as its OOC as you mentioned about what Jiraiya could do.



> Again, you are merely speculating. The crows were emphasized to show that Naruto was already in a genjutsu. Also, the eyes were emphasized. There was a whole panel for the eyes and then Naruto going "Sharingan!!".



He had eye contact with the crow, the panels in those pages indicate so.

*Comicbook Mobi... for free. *
9:23 -- even the anime indicates he Sharingan crow.




> Provide this please.



I already mentioned what the Raikage had over Jiraiya. You need to prove Jiraiya has everything like the Raikage to dodge Amaterasu.



> Can you show me where it says he used some special or high level shunshin? All I remember is them mentioning regular old shunshin.



The Raikage was hyped to be fast alone by Bee and Zetsu, then with the shroud hyped to be as fast as Minato then with amping the shroud to Bijuu levels he was able to dodge Amaterasu.

Jiraiya was never praised for his speed nor does he have the Raikage's level of speed for Shunshin to make a huge difference.



> It is also conjuncture to say he can't dodge it. Its all guesswork, I simply provided a bit more evidence.



Actually its a fact to say he can't dodge since he's not shown whats required.



> It wouldn't lead to him like that. His hair becomes thick and as hard as steel so if it hit the front of his hair it would have to burn through and spread. He would have time to remove his hair before then. Like I said, the Samurai lived for chapters without taking any damage.



Amaterasu burns through whatever the user focuses on.
The Sasuke didn't focus Amaterasu on the Samurai, like how Itachi did with Sasuke's Kaotn and body.



> Well no shit. They leave a block of wood behind, if you can't detect that you would have to be blind.



But Itachi still implied he could detect it meaning it wouldn't be much use.



> Whoever said the crow didn't have a Sharingan?



Well that there shows you that it was the crow which cast the Genjutsu.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 14, 2009)

> All points to Itachi being able to take Jiraiya


So Munboy your point is that Kisame might have implied Itachi would have been able to Kill Jiraiya in that Scenario? I would sure hope so, since in that scenario Jiraiya has less Knowledge about MS then Part 2, Itachi is at his best Starting Distance for a Match with Jiraiya, Jiraiya has to protect two Genin from harm; one of which is KO'd, and Itachi has the Support of another Incredibly Powerful Akatsuki, Kisame.

However one has to ask oneself even if Kisame did imply that Itachi could have beaten Jiraiya in that Scenario does such as statement hold any weight in a 1v1 Scenario, let alone one where Jiraiya starts in HM instead of Base? 



> Manga proves me right actually. Itachi via the proof was implied to be above. And Orochimaru was the only one around Jiraiya's leve


Actually both Itachi and Jiraiya(At least once in HM) have proved they are above Orochimaru's level. Or unless you care to reconcile the fact that the very jutsu shown to own Oro twice a Binding Genjutsu is also possible for Jiraiya as well(And in my opinion its a better Binding Genjutsu). 



> Miles above, well you see Pain mentioned something about a praise, which was confirmed to be a praise when it turned out the God Realm was not utilized.


I Agree Nagato is quite a Bit Stronger then Jiraiya, but you really have no proof God Realm was not Utilized as there was a decent portion of fighting that took place off screen. 



> Also the manga does imply Naruto surpassed the Sennin and former Hokage. So there shouldn't be any question on it as there shouldn't have been when he surpassed Kakashi.


Do You think it really makes any sense to say that Naruto Surpass Minato or Jiraiya w/o Pa-Toad knowing about FRS or KSM. Can You Really see Naruto beating Jiriaya w/o FRS or KSM? Can You really see Naruto beating Minato w/o FRS or KSM? 

Yes Naruto has Surpassed Jiraiya, but he didn't surpass him w/o even having FRS factored in. Pa-toad at that point was talking about how Naruto Surpassed Jiriaya in Sage Mode and Minato in Rasengan. 



> Jiraiya says the quantity of jutsu doesn't matter for shinobi, just the guts to never give up -- seems to have gotten Naruto further than Minato and Jiraiya in power. Also if it was just in their jutsu/SM then a direct reference would've been made to them rather than saying those that came before him with the images of Minato and Jiraiya indicating [them]


There was, it was those "old familar forms" which refers to the forms of the Techniques  naruto was using in the same way as Minato and Jiraiya used to. 



> I already mentioned what the Raikage had over Jiraiya. You need to prove Jiraiya has everything like the Raikage to dodge Amaterasu


There is no proof you have to be Raikage's Speed or Greater to Dodge Ameretsu. Just Because Raikage Dodged it doesn't mean he is the absolute minimum ins speed. Not to mention Jiriaya has better Speed Feats then Raikage anyway. Though Raikage is probably Faster i seriously doubt that its by a huge margin and there are no feats of Raikage's that prove there is an enormous margin ether. 



> The Raikage was hyped to be fast alone by Bee and Zetsu, then with the shroud hyped to be as fast as Minato then with amping the shroud to Bijuu levels he was able to dodge Amaterasu.


When Was Raikage praised for his speed w/o Raiton Shroud to be Fast by Bee? Zetsu said he was Fast, but that was 50% Zetsu and it he didn't flip out like OMG this guy is a beast, he just casually said this guy is fast like he probably would in the Case of Anyone who is high level in Speed. 



> Actually its a fact to say he can't dodge since he's not shown whats required.


Is there some list of Requirements and Exact Speed Measurements that i'm missing. 

What happened to you Munboy you used to be way more sensible and now you have switch to the Uchiha-Fandom. This is crazy.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 14, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> All points to Itachi being able to take Jiraiya.



I already typed up the Viz trans which is what I use. Anyway I am more inclined to believe he was referring to escaping with Naruto since you know....that was the mission and Itachi never even attempted to fight Jiraiya.

So can you explain why Kisame would be referring to beating Jiraiya when the whole situation was about taking Naruto?



> Manga proves me right actually. Itachi via the proof was implied to be above. And Orochimaru was the only one around Jiraiya's level.



So do you actually have some proof or more speculation?



> Miles above, well you see Pain mentioned something about a praise, which was confirmed to be a praise when it turned out the God Realm was not utilized.
> 
> Also the manga does imply Naruto surpassed the Sennin and former Hokage. So there shouldn't be any question on it as there shouldn't have been when he surpassed Kakashi.



Well, since Pain is just praising Jiraiya that is all Pa was doing for Naruto. So he really didn't surpass them, they were just being nice.

See how that works?



> We're told:
> Both translations suggest you're wrong.



him

The manga tells you your wrong, not suggest it. It says he was able to do it. Ma and Pa were there so that it didn't run out. Pa tried the same thing for Naruto. Even though Naruto mastered it he told him he couldn't use it in battle because of the risk. The same thing applied to Jiraiya.



> I can show implications and translations for all the arguments I've made if you really need to see them.



I have been waiting for some kind of evidence. You have either been completely wrong about manga fact or simply made up your own. 

No different than the others 

I thought you were better than that Munboy. Come on now.



> He had eye contact with the crow, the panels in those pages indicate so.



He also made eye contact with Itachi. So again, I will need more than just your speculation.

Of course, I will give you that attack, but then do I get to invent 1 for Jiraiya?



> I already mentioned what the Raikage had over Jiraiya. You need to prove Jiraiya has everything like the Raikage to dodge Amaterasu.



1. They both have enormous chakra levels. This is confirmed.

2. Jiraiya was tier 4.5 speed base and with SM we can safely assume 5, which is top tier speed. Correct me here if you don't believe he would be tier 5 at this point.

Anyway, a few additional points.

Link removed

Notice the "Raikage is keeping his chakra's active, he will use Shunshin". In SM Jiraiya has "stronger" chakra's that are constantly being supplied and kept on tap and he also knows.....you guessed it, Shunshin.

So if they both have high chakra levels and high tiers of speed as well as stronger chakra's, is it really than unreasonable to believe he could accomplish the same thing?



> Actually its a fact to say he can't dodge since he's not shown whats required.



See above.

1. It was never said what Raikage did was a requirement, he simply went all out.

2. Jiraiya has or is capable of just about everything the Raikage displayed.

So again, I would say are guesses are about even on this. 



> The Sasuke didn't focus Amaterasu on the Samurai, like how Itachi did with Sasuke's Kaotn and body.



The Samurai was hit with a direct shot of Amaterasu that missed its initial target, no different than when Itachi chased down Sasuke with it.

Seems metal samurai armor is a better defense than CS2 wings 



> But Itachi still implied he could detect it meaning it wouldn't be much use.



Minus the fact that it would save him from Amaterasu, sure, it wouldn't be much use.

Like I said. Itachi can detect it just the same as anyone else. He sees a block of wood.



> Well that there shows you that it was the crow which cast the Genjutsu.



No, it showed me a crow sitting on Itachi's shoulder.


----------



## Cursed Avenger (Oct 14, 2009)

Let's say that Jiraiya is able to somehow break out of Tsukuyomi, even though he doesn't have the Sharingan, Let's say that he is able to block/dodge Amaterasu, even though Itachi managed to hit Sasuke with it. From what we've seen, Jiraiya doesn't have anything capable of attacking or defending against his Susanoo's sealing sword and invincible shield.

As for people referring to the Frog Song, do you really actually believe that genjutsu will work on Itachi? Do you remember what happened when Kurenai tried to use it? Or when Sasuke was having a genjutsu battle against him? 

A sick, virtually blind, dying Itachi still had reflexes fast enough to block a lighting attack.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 14, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Jiraiya doesn't have anything capable of attacking or defending against his Susanoo's sealing sword and invincible shield.



Yomi Numa



> As for people referring to the Frog Song, do you really actually believe that genjutsu will work on Itachi? Do you remember what happened when Kurenai tried to use it? Or when Sasuke was having a genjutsu battle against him?



Sasuke tried to use eye genjutsu vs Itachi which is different, especially since the Sharingan helps his genjutsu skills as well as him having an eye reflecting genjutsu or whatever he used vs Kurenai.

Anyway, Jiraiya uses sound for his that paralyzes the minds and the nerves. Its a bit different. You COULD be right, but its unsure.



> A sick, virtually blind, dying Itachi still had reflexes fast enough to block a lighting attack.



All he had to do was open his eye. Anyone is capable of that. Especially when the person attacking them gives a mini speech on what is about to happen.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 14, 2009)

People still are using the 'invincible' argument when talking about Susano-o. 

Do people really think the Yata Mirror can tank a FRS or Chou Odama Rasengan?Sure,it was said to be invincible but then again the same thing was said about Susano-o,and we know how that worked out.
Amaterasu was as hot as the sun.Neji's/Gaara's defense was unbeatable.Tsukuyomi was unescapable.MS was undefeatable.

Every new thing is invincible until it ain't.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 14, 2009)

Turrin said:


> So Munboy your point is that Kisame might have implied Itachi would have been able to Kill Jiraiya in that Scenario? I would sure hope so, since in that scenario Jiraiya has less Knowledge about MS then Part 2, Itachi is at his best Starting Distance for a Match with Jiraiya, Jiraiya has to protect two Genin from harm; one of which is KO'd, and Itachi has the Support of another Incredibly Powerful Akatsuki, Kisame.
> 
> However one has to ask oneself even if Kisame did imply that Itachi could have beaten Jiraiya in that Scenario does such as statement hold any weight in a 1v1 Scenario, let alone one where Jiraiya starts in HM instead of Base?



However, Kisame made a direct reference to "someone like you [Itachi]" -- he didn't mention other factors. That was the author implying Itachi was stronger than Jiraiya.






> Actually both Itachi and Jiraiya(At least once in HM) have proved they are above Orochimaru's level. Or unless you care to reconcile the fact that the very jutsu shown to own Oro twice a Binding Genjutsu is also possible for Jiraiya as well(And in my opinion its a better Binding Genjutsu).



Being around Orochimaru's level doesn't equate to being equal to him. I'm one of those who support that Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru.



> I Agree Nagato is quite a Bit Stronger then Jiraiya, but you really have no proof God Realm was not Utilized as there was a decent portion of fighting that took place off screen.



Fukasaku lacked knowledge on the God Realm.
anxious Sakura was as she healed Sasuke that she had to calm her doubts.
anxious Sakura was as she healed Sasuke that she had to calm her doubts.

That implies Fukasaku nor Shima knew about him.

Also if the God Realm was utilized you think it'd have been used in the following situations:

here
anxious Sakura was as she healed Sasuke that she had to calm her doubts.



> Do You think it really makes any sense to say that Naruto Surpass Minato or Jiraiya w/o Pa-Toad knowing about FRS or KSM. Can You Really see Naruto beating Jiriaya w/o FRS or KSM? Can You really see Naruto beating Minato w/o FRS or KSM?



Yes and yes. Its all Naruto's power believe it or not. Fukasaku knew both shinobi still concluded Naruto surpassed them with Sennin Mode. He didn't know about Fuuton Rasenshuriken making the gap between them and Naruto larger, and KSM makes the gap even larger.



> Yes Naruto has Surpassed Jiraiya, but he didn't surpass him w/o even having FRS factored in. Pa-toad at that point was talking about how Naruto Surpassed Jiriaya in Sage Mode and Minato in Rasengan.



However, Rasengan nor Sennin Mode were referenced. Just "those that came before him"; indicating Naruto surpassed _them_. FRS just served as the thing to widen the gap.



> There was, it was those "old familar forms" which refers to the forms of the Techniques  naruto was using in the same way as Minato and Jiraiya used to.



Bunta said that, and it referred to the images of Jiraiya and Minato, not Sennin Mode and Rasengan.



> There is no proof you have to be Raikage's Speed or Greater to Dodge Ameretsu. Just Because Raikage Dodged it doesn't mean he is the absolute minimum ins speed. Not to mention Jiriaya has better Speed Feats then Raikage anyway. Though Raikage is probably Faster i seriously doubt that its by a huge margin and there are no feats of Raikage's that prove there is an enormous margin ether.



The Raikage's shown to be faster than any character we've seen. Thus you need a speed boost like this to counter Amaterasu. Jiraiya lacks this.
*This is Not an Exit*
*This is Not an Exit*
*This is Not an Exit*
*This is Not an Exit*

Jiraiya doesn't have a nervous system as fast as Minato's, nor does he have an amped Raiton shroud and Biju level chakra which allows the Raikage to move the way he did.



> When Was Raikage praised for his speed w/o Raiton Shroud to be Fast by Bee? Zetsu said he was Fast, but that was 50% Zetsu and it he didn't flip out like OMG this guy is a beast, he just casually said this guy is fast like he probably would in the Case of Anyone who is high level in Speed.



Bee acknowledged he was fast. And it doesn't matter which Zetsu it was, that was meant to show that he's pretty damn fast alone without the shroud.



> Is there some list of Requirements and Exact Speed Measurements that i'm missing.



Well we know the Raikage was pretty damn fast prior the shroud and he had a shroud to amp his speed along with Biju levels of chakra to pump into his Shunshin to make it move faster than the Sharingan can predict. 

We get that you need to be pretty damn fast to dodge Amaterasu.




Cyphon said:


> I already typed up the Viz trans which is what I use. Anyway I am more inclined to believe he was referring to escaping with Naruto since you know....that was the mission and Itachi never even attempted to fight Jiraiya.



Kisame was referencing to Jiraiya, though. Why say "someone like you could've..." in the original Japanese text? Surely he was referencing to Jiraiya. As Naruto and Sasuke weren't that powerful back then.



> So can you explain why Kisame would be referring to beating Jiraiya when the whole situation was about taking Naruto?



Jiraiya was what was keeping them from doing so. They discussed this before going to the hotel.



> So do you actually have some proof or more speculation?



Hold on, I've not seen any evidence suggesting that Jiraiya could truly overcome Itachi. =/




> Well, since Pain is just praising Jiraiya that is all Pa was doing for Naruto. So he really didn't surpass them, they were just being nice.
> 
> See how that works?



Differences. 

Pain praised Jiraiya -- confirmed when it turns out the central Pain wasn't used.

Fukasaku said Naruto surpassed them -- nothing refutes this.



> anxious Sakura was as she healed Sasuke that she had to calm her doubts.
> 
> The manga tells you your wrong, not suggest it. It says he was able to do it. Ma and Pa were there so that it didn't run out. Pa tried the same thing for Naruto. Even though Naruto mastered it he told him he couldn't use it in battle because of the risk. The same thing applied to Jiraiya.



The manga proved me right actually.

Now anyone would tell you that the translations I provided are more accurate as on the link you provided I skipped to the credits page and got this:

*This is Not an Exit*

They have a bad reputation when it comes to translation accuracy.



> He also made eye contact with Itachi. So again, I will need more than just your speculation.
> 
> Of course, I will give you that attack, but then do I get to invent 1 for Jiraiya?



However, the manga nor anime showed any emphasizes with eye contact with Itachi himself, both emphasize eye contact with the crow.



> 1. They both have enormous chakra levels. This is confirmed.



Jiraiya was said to have lots of chakra. The Raikage was said to have Bijuu amounts, incomparable. 



> 2. Jiraiya was tier 4.5 speed base and with SM we can safely assume 5, which is top tier speed. Correct me here if you don't believe he would be tier 5 at this point.



Sennin Mode boosts the user's ability rapidly, tier 5 speed is a given. But it some tier 5s may be better than others i.e. Raikage being better than SM Jiraiya due to the insane Shunshin.
I mean Pain without prediction used shared vision to counter Jiraiya nicely.


> Anyway, a few additional points.
> 
> *This is Not an Exit*
> 
> Notice the "Raikage is keeping his chakra's active, he will use Shunshin". In SM Jiraiya has "stronger" chakra's that are constantly being supplied and kept on tap and he also knows.....you guessed it, Shunshin.



The Raikage used Biju amounts of chakra, not just lots.



> So if they both have high chakra levels and high tiers of speed as well as stronger chakra's, is it really than unreasonable to believe he could accomplish the same thing?



Actually it is. We have no indication or hint that Jiraiya's reflexes were comparable to Minato's. Nor do we have any evidence that he has Biju amounts of chakra, though you can debate this via the infinite SM. But then it comes to question on why he didn't use this speed against the 6 Pains trying to kill him.



> 1. It was never said what Raikage did was a requirement, he simply went all out.



But the Raikage boosted speed which was already way above average.



> 2. Jiraiya has or is capable of just about everything the Raikage displayed.



I wouldn't go that far. Especially when it turned out that the shroud increased the speed: so it was Raikage base speed+Raiton shroud+bijuu levels of chakra pumped into Shunshin = speed to dodge Amaterasu.




> The Samurai was hit with a direct shot of Amaterasu that missed its initial target, no different than when Itachi chased down Sasuke with it.



Itachi focused the flames on Sasuke, and we saw in a short time, Sasuke lost half his body.

*This is Not an Exit*
The exclamation mark indicates Sasuke lost focus -- why lose focus? Probably because his initial target was gone.



> Like I said. Itachi can detect it just the same as anyone else. He sees a block of wood.



But the way he described Orochimaru's variant hints that he could detect the lower variants easily thus could counter.



> No, it showed me a crow sitting on Itachi's shoulder.



Look at the eyes of it.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 14, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> So how does what I said make no sense?



Your argument amounts to Jiraiya has special chakra so he might be immune to Itachi's Genjutsu. From my perspective anyway, I may be misinterpreting what you say.

It's a needless argument anyway. Jiraiya has two frogs on him who are always touching him and can therefore extremely quickly bust him out of Genjutsu anyway.



> For Jiraiya sage chakra isn't constant though, which is why he takes on the appearance of a frog....or at least partially. IIRC it means his chakra is constantly unbalanced, just not to a great degree.



So he still has balanced enough chakra to use jutsu. Genjutsu is someone artificially disrupting the chakra in your brain to cause you to sense things that aren't there. Jiraiya has to disrupt that and we've never seen simple power ever do that.



> His fight vs Pain showed very good speed feats, not sure what fight you witnessed. Anyway, Raikage used Shunshin which moves the user from everyone's sight be it Sharingan or not. The Sharingan being able to see ahead is only able to predict where the body will be etc....so Raikage was too fast for that, but all he did in the beginning to dodge Amaterasu was to wait for it and then to simply Shunshin. It then removed him from Sasuke's LOS. It was more about timing then speed.



I seem to remember him throwing a fast kick (nothing that amazing) and jumping off a wall while his shoe fell to the ground. Again, not that amazing. 

Raikage couldn't move faster than Sasuke can see without having the speed to do so. His timing was excellent, but he still requires that raw speed to do it. This is something Jiraiya lacks.



> The ninja wasn't random, it was Raikage's guard and he knew a lot more than that. He apparently to knew the extent of skill to which Itachi could use it and everything.



I seem to remember him speculating that Sasuke might have more control over Amaterasu than Itachi. And considering Zetsu never saw Amaterasu until Itachi's final battle, I doubt he'll have seen this skill firsthand. He's an unreliable source, plain and simple. It's like Tenten saying "Kaiten>Gaara's Sand" or Ebisu saying "Sandaime was the strongest Hokage evarz".



> The scan you provided shows him inside of it. When was he out of it again?



It shows Susanoo leaning over Itachi, holding the shield in front of him. Itachi is between the shield and Susanoo's body.



> See above. Shunshin seems to be a perfectly valid argument. Again though, it can greatly depend on timing and knowledge.



Only if you're fast enough to move faster than the Uchiha can see. Jiraiya isn't that fast.



> We don't know what he knows. I believe he does know how its fired and maybe even more than that.



So we're speculating now. Why would Jiraiya know how it's fired? He didn't even know it existed until he saw the afterflames. You're telling me that he's managed to figure out how it's fired and how strong Amaterasu is by seeing a little piece of it.

It's like me saying Itachi probably knows of HM because he knew of Yamata no Jutsu.



> Looking at the scans it just appears to me he simply didn't care. I don't see much evidence of him putting any effort into avoiding the sword. Simply coming straight towards and Itachi and having a convo.



Except we see very clearly he's surprised it happened. I'm not sure how much more obvious it has to be. He's leering at Itachi, declaring how he'll defeat him and is geared up for a fight, then finds he's already been stabbed.

Unless you're telling me Oro is going to go lightly on Itachi, someone he admitted was stronger than him to the point it was impossible for him to beat him and who has been one shotted by him easily before I simply don't know what else to say.



> Again, see my old argument. If he doesn't care that he gets stabbed nor does he even care what just happened to a jutsu like YnJ, he obviously wasn't putting much effort into avoiding it. Mostly attributed to the fact he has super regeneration and such. Quite different from the more mortal characters like Jiraiya.



So why does he always try to evade attacks? He doesn't care about it after he's injured. Beforehand however he'll try like everyone else to avoid it. Tsunade can survive mortal injuries like he can, but we don't see her allowing people to stab her up.


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## Cyphon (Oct 14, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kisame was referencing to Jiraiya, though. Why say "someone like you could've..." in the original Japanese text? Surely he was referencing to Jiraiya. As Naruto and Sasuke weren't that powerful back then.



Again, he said "Why did we have to retreat? With your power..". Which could just as easily end with "we could have grabbed the kid and gotten away" etc...

That's not to say what you think he implied is wrong, just that it doesn't have to be that.



> Jiraiya was what was keeping them from doing so. They discussed this before going to the hotel.



Yeah, but then once they were there and Kisame saw the situation it changed. 



> Hold on, I've not seen any evidence suggesting that Jiraiya could truly overcome Itachi. =/



I have provided plenty of evidence but that really isn't the point. I acknowledge the possibilities while you simply ignore anyone but Itachi winning, which is no more like then the possibilities I present. Then you either change or ignore cannon to support your argument.



> Pain praised Jiraiya -- confirmed when it turns out the central Pain wasn't used.



So you are saying Nagato didn't know how to use his central body when he faced Jiraiya or that he didn't know what the body could do?

So he should have said "I would've lost, but I still have a few bodies I haven't quite figured out yet so I may be wrong about this praise" 



> Fukasaku said Naruto surpassed them -- nothing refutes this.



Feats. Oh, and nothing refutes the fact that Jiraiya was strong enough to beat Pain. Did someone say something to the opposite effect that I missed?



> The manga proved me right actually.



Again, see the scan I provided. Its the same as the Viz translation. You were wrong, flat out.



> However, the manga nor anime showed any emphasizes with eye contact with Itachi himself, both emphasize eye contact with the crow.



Which would be emphasized to show that Naruto realized he was in genjutsu. 



> Jiraiya was said to have lots of chakra. The Raikage was said to have Bijuu amounts, incomparable.



Bijuu amounts = lots. How is that incomparable. Can you prove Jiraiya doesn't have on around that much chakra?



> i.e. Raikage being better than SM Jiraiya due to the insane Shunshin.



Again, basically just speculation. Raikage may or may not be a bit faster, but they are still in the same ballpark.



> I mean Pain without prediction used shared vision to counter Jiraiya nicely.



Shared vision from 3 people > Sharingan from 1. And can you prove Pain would not be able to follow Raikage's movements?



> Actually it is. We have no indication or hint that Jiraiya's reflexes were comparable to Minato's.



Minato used Hiraishin, that isn't his reflexes, its just a damn summoning jutsu 



> But then it comes to question on why he didn't use this speed against the 6 Pains trying to kill him.



He did. In case you didn't notice they were completely unable to stop him 1 on 1.

Shared vision is the only reason he didn't decimate the 3 of them even quicker.



> But the Raikage boosted speed which was already way above average.



Raikage's speed wasn't way above average. Juugo was fast enough to react to his speed. He actually blocked Raikage with seemingly little effort but then Raikage overpowered him.



> I wouldn't go that far. Especially when it turned out that the shroud increased the speed: so it was Raikage base speed+Raiton shroud+bijuu levels of chakra pumped into Shunshin = speed to dodge Amaterasu.



So Jiraiya is missing the shroud, but did it even say that increased his speed or just his reflexes?



> But the way he described Orochimaru's variant hints that he could detect the lower variants easily thus could counter.



There isn't a counter to Kawarimi, it is a defensive technique. 



> Look at the eyes of it.



I see them, and I don't see them doing anything.



Vergil642 said:


> Your argument amounts to Jiraiya has special chakra so he might be immune to Itachi's Genjutsu. From my perspective anyway, I may be misinterpreting what you say.



More or less, but it is more because the chakra is stronger and is changing around a bit.



> I seem to remember him throwing a fast kick (nothing that amazing) and jumping off a wall while his shoe fell to the ground. Again, not that amazing.



He did more, but again to each his own. I saw it as fast and you didn't. Although I do feel most Itachi fans see Jiraiya as slower merely to keep him elevated to a higher speed standard. So I doubt you could be convinced no matter how it is shown.



> Raikage couldn't move faster than Sasuke can see without having the speed to do so. His timing was excellent, but he still requires that raw speed to do it. This is something Jiraiya lacks.



Again, you will have to show me Jiraiya lacks this. If you look at my explanation to Munboy it explains it pretty well. If you don't want to look I will re-explain it.



> I seem to remember him speculating that Sasuke might have more control over Amaterasu than Itachi. And considering Zetsu never saw Amaterasu until Itachi's final battle, I doubt he'll have seen this skill firsthand. He's an unreliable source, plain and simple. It's like Tenten saying "Kaiten>Gaara's Sand" or Ebisu saying "Sandaime was the strongest Hokage evarz".



Well, I agree for the most part, but I still believe Jiraiya knows more than you think. 



> It shows Susanoo leaning over Itachi, holding the shield in front of him. Itachi is between the shield and Susanoo's body.



Looks like he is inside Susanoo to me. I don't see it.

So we're speculating now. 



> Why would Jiraiya know how it's fired? He didn't even know it existed until he saw the afterflames. You're telling me that he's managed to figure out how it's fired and how strong Amaterasu is by seeing a little piece of it.



You act as if there is no history to the Uchiha in existence. This is a guy who:

1. Spied and followed Akutsuki

2. Saw the results/effects of Amaterasu while also knowing a good deal about what Uchiha eyes are capable of

3. Was the first to say Madara was alive.....or whatever

I mean, he is not an idiot. If he saw a black fire that burned a fire breathing frog, I am sure he did his research.

Anyway, I still have to admit it IS in the end just speculation, but I already admitted that.



> It's like me saying Itachi probably knows of HM because he knew of Yamata no Jutsu.



Not even close, but okay.



> Except we see very clearly he's surprised it happened. I'm not sure how much more obvious it has to be. He's leering at Itachi, declaring how he'll defeat him and is geared up for a fight, then finds he's already been stabbed.



He didn't look surprised. He kept talking right through his sentence and then bragged about the stab not doing anything.



> Unless you're telling me Oro is going to go lightly on Itachi, someone he admitted was stronger than him to the point it was impossible for him to beat him



No, I am telling you Oro is an idiot.



> So why does he always try to evade attacks? He doesn't care about it after he's injured. Beforehand however he'll try like everyone else to avoid it.



Natural fighting? It doesn't really matter. The point still stands that his has far less worries in battle, which is a big difference. If you have no fear of death than you lack an emotion that heightens senses and such.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2009)

> However, Kisame made a direct reference to "someone like you [Itachi]" -- he didn't mention other factors.


What? How Does that Make Sense? Kisame is Saying for someone like you retreat isn't necessary. So Yes Kisame is obviously talking about Itachi, but he is also talking about that situation in general. He is saying for some one like itachi in that situation retreat wasn't necessary. 

And Mind you Itachi Disagreed with Kisame saying he did need to retreat because he had already used Ameretsu and Two Tsukyomi and needed to rest. 

So there is only one way to take that Statement. Kisame thought in that situation Itachi could have beaten Jiraiya, however it seems that Kisame was ignorant to the amount of strain using MS three times caused Itachi so even Itachi himself seems to believe that Kisame's Statement is flawed or not taking into account all factors.

Even if You Say that was itachi Lying and he wasn't strained then yeah of course Itachi didn't need to retreat because Jiraiya was in an impossible Scenario for Reasons previously stated and in that case i hope to god Kisame is right and Itachi could fuck Jiraiya's day up because otherwise he would just be a joke.



> That was the author implying Itachi was stronger than Jiraiya.


The Author Implied they were equals in quite a few direct ways that weren't nearly as ambiguous as Kisame's Statement in which the character the statement is being made by disagrees with the statement itself.  And lets not forget that this is all your opinion as to what the Author is implying one that is not shared by everyone and hence isn't even a real argument.



> Being around Orochimaru's level doesn't equate to being equal to him. I'm one of those who support that Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru.


All i'm Saying is to whatever Extent You would Consider Itachi above Orochimaru; Jiriaya is w/o a doubt at the same level above Orochimaru. Excluding the Difference in Type Match ups. 



> Fukasaku lacked knowledge on the God Realm.
> here
> here
> 
> That implies Fukasaku nor Shima knew about him.


I Seems to me that Fusaku Just didn't know about the 5 Second Rule and its not confirmed he didn't know about God Realm's Ability. But Yeah its possible God Realm Didn't use his Ability Against Jiraiya. All i was saying was we can't be 100% sure with the information were have been given on that battle. 



> Yes and yes. Its all Naruto's power believe it or not. Fukasaku knew both shinobi still concluded Naruto surpassed them with Sennin Mode. He didn't know about Fuuton Rasenshuriken making the gap between them and Naruto larger, and KSM makes the gap even larger.


Then how exactly do you purpose that Naruto beats Jiraiya w/o FRS or Kyuubi Powers(I won't get into Minato because there isn't much info on him, but from what we know of him i find it hard to believe naruto could even land a hit on him)? I made a thread on it so i suggest we take it there though. 



> However, Rasengan nor Sennin Mode were referenced. Just "those that came before him"; indicating Naruto surpassed them. FRS just served as the thing to widen the gap.


Old Familar Forms was what referenced the Techniques. 



> Bunta said that, and it referred to the images of Jiraiya and Minato, not Sennin Mode and Rasengan.


Yes and what brought about the images of Jiraiya and Minato? It was naruto using Rasengan in conjunction with Sage Mode to Kill Asura. Bunta noticed those old Familar forms namely Rasengan and Sage Mode and told Pa Toad. Pa Toad then Said yes it seems that naruto has surpassed the previous generation. The Forms were always in a reference too Rasengan and Sage Mode both styles/forms/techniques Jiriaya/Minato used in combat which Naruto had surpassed them in. 



> The Raikage's shown to be faster than any character we've seen. Thus you need a speed boost like this to counter Amaterasu.


Again how Does Raikage Dodging Amaterasu mean that his Speed is the Minimum amount you need to dodge it? He Dodge it easily it stands to reason that there would be people with slighter lesser speed that could dodge it with more difficulty, partially, or dodge if for a certain period of time before getting caught.



> Jiraiya doesn't have a nervous system as fast as Minato's


How do you know. We have never Seen Minato's Speed in Combat before there is no way of knowing how fast Minato is other then Chi's Statement implying he was fast, which i'm sure he was, but that doesn't mean he was faster then everyone but Raikage R2. 



> or does he have an amped Raiton shroud


Nope but he has HM which has similar speed increasing effects. 



> and Biju level chakra


A Hype Statement by Karin who has never seen Jiriaya before how do you know she wouldn't make the same comment about HM Jiraiya who also has a shit ton of Chakra?  Even if Raikage does have more then Jiraiya it just means he can maintain he power up the Raiton Shroud longer then Jiraiya can Maintain HM, which against an enemy like Itachi who has far less Stamina/Chakra then both is irrelevant. 



> which allows the Raikage to move the way he did.


No his Raiton Shroud is what allows him to do this. Nowhere is it stated you need Bijuu chakra levels to use Raiton Shroud. Bijuu Chakra levels just allows Raikage to Maintain Raiton Shroud at that level for a longer period of time then most people could. 



> Bee acknowledged he was fast.


Yeah he did, but we have no clue if that was a statement about Normal Speed or Raiton Shroud Enhanced Speed. 



> And it doesn't matter which Zetsu it was,


Yes it does because IC White Zetsu over reacts to things.



> that was meant to show that he's pretty damn fast alone without the shroud.


I'm not arguing it wasn't, but Zetsu saying that Raikage is Fast in Base doesn't mean he is off the Charts fast in base mode even w/o Raiton Shroud. 



> Well we know the Raikage was pretty damn fast prior the shroud and he had a shroud to amp his speed along with


Sure, but we still don't know how fast he was. The Fastest Character that Ameretsu has been used against prior to Raikage was Sasuke who was able to dodge it for a little while through the use of Shunshin. Hence the only reference we have is that to dodge it a little you have to be Sasuke level and to dodge it completely you have to be faster then Sasuke level by some unknown amount. Raikage is Fast enough by that unknown amount to dodge it, but we have no clue if his is the Minimum speed level you need to be at or he is far beyond the level you need to be at in speed to dodge it. 

Even if you say Itachi was holding back letting Sasuke dodge it then that just means we have no reference point at all to determine how fast you have to be to dodge it other then really fast, which HM Jiraiya is. 



> along with Biju levels of chakra to pump into his Shunshin to make it move faster than the Sharingan can predict.


Karin commented that the total sum of Raikage's Chakra was like that off a Bijuu. Raikage did not pump bijuu levels of chakra into his Shunshin to dodge Ameretsu otherwise he would be out of chakra once he did that Shunshin. Raikage pumped an unknown amount of chakra into that Shunshin. Even if we assume that Shunshin cost him 1/7th-1/6th of his chakra which is being dam generous in this argument, i find it hard the believe that HM Jiraiya doesn't have far more Chakra then 1/7th-1/6th raikage's chakra as he has a massive amount himself.

In all likely hood Raikage pumped a large amount of chakra into his Shunshin, but not so large that a Shinobi of HM Jiriaya's Chakra level could not afford to expend that amount of chakra on a similar shunshin several times himself and still have plenty of chakra to fight. We are after all talking about a guy that has a 5 in Stamina and then has his stamina Greatly enhanced by Senjutsu and has a constant amount of Natural energy being pulled in by Ma/Pa Toad and also doesn't have to waste as much chakra himself as he has MA/Pa Toad to cast Ninjutsu for him. 



> We get that you need to be pretty damn fast to dodge Amaterasu.


I agree, but HM Jiriaya is "Pretty damn fast"


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## the box (Oct 14, 2009)

jiraya takes it with a shushin and kick to the head. itachi wont be able to react to his insane speed


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 14, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Again, he said "Why did we have to retreat? With your power..". Which could just as easily end with "we could have grabbed the kid and gotten away" etc...



The opposition was truly Jiraiya. No one else. Jiraiya had eye contact too, which suggests a lot.





> Yeah, but then once they were there and Kisame saw the situation it changed.



Yea, Jiraiya made eye contact and Itachi could've used a particular jutsu to end it.



> I have provided plenty of evidence but that really isn't the point. I acknowledge the possibilities while you simply ignore anyone but Itachi winning, which is no more like then the possibilities I present. Then you either change or ignore cannon to support your argument.



I used to support Jiraiya in this battle, but I realised that the evidence and implications we've gotten suggest otherwise. =/



> So you are saying Nagato didn't know how to use his central body when he faced Jiraiya or that he didn't know what the body could do?



That or Nagato didn't feel the need to. Since it'd be odd if he didn't know how to use the main Pain. 



> So he should have said "I would've lost, but I still have a few bodies I haven't quite figured out yet so I may be wrong about this praise"



Nope. He said "I can give you no higher praise" or "I can say no more" -- turned out to just be a praise to his former teacher as it was shown the God Realm wasn't used. The incident with Fukasaku should've made that clear.



> Feats. Oh, and nothing refutes the fact that Jiraiya was strong enough to beat Pain. Did someone say something to the opposite effect that I missed?



Feats favour Naruto. Actually feats _do_ refute Jiraiya's chances of victory against Pain -- meet the God Realm.



> Again, see the scan I provided. Its the same as the Viz translation. You were wrong, flat out.



Do I believe the dub, or do I believe the original Japanese text. If this is such an issue I can grab a raw and get it translated.



> Which would be emphasized to show that Naruto realized he was in genjutsu.



Yes, through a crow.



> Bijuu amounts = lots. How is that incomparable. Can you prove Jiraiya doesn't have on around that much chakra?



Firstly it wasn't mentioned nor implied that Jiraiya did.




> Again, basically just speculation. Raikage may or may not be a bit faster, but they are still in the same ballpark.



Not speculation at all. The Raikage was praised for his speed by Zetsu and implied by Bee. Shii mentions with the shroud he has reflexes comparable to the Yellow Flash and Karin said that he was drawning Bijuu amounts of chakra after Shii said that he was going to use Shunshin -- databook 1 says Shunshin speed is determined via amount of chakra added onto it.



> Shared vision from 3 people > Sharingan from 1. And can you prove Pain would not be able to follow Raikage's movements?



The Sharingan can actually predict movements. Pain probably had good timing. Pain hasn't shown that he could follow the Raikage's movements, he's not faced one as fast as the Raikage.



> Minato used Hiraishin, that isn't his reflexes, its just a damn summoning jutsu



Yet Shii felt the need to compare the Raikage w/ the shroud's reflexes with Minato's. Probably means Minato's reflexes were quite good, especially for a shroud Raikage to be compared to it.



> He did. In case you didn't notice they were completely unable to stop him 1 on 1.



But he didn't pump Biju amounts of chakra into Shunshin.



> Shared vision is the only reason he didn't decimate the 3 of them even quicker.



The argument here is that against the 6 Pains he didn't pump Biju amounts of chakra into the Shunshin no jutsu. Which if he could would've saved him a life.



> Raikage's speed wasn't way above average. Juugo was fast enough to react to his speed. He actually blocked Raikage with seemingly little effort but then Raikage overpowered him.



Says more about Jugo's reaction time, however.



> So Jiraiya is missing the shroud, but did it even say that increased his speed or just his reflexes?



He's missing the reflexes comparable to Minato's. Sennin Mode could serve as the shroud replacement, but then again Jiraiya's base form wasn't so commended on speed so its doubtful.



> There isn't a counter to Kawarimi, it is a defensive technique.



I meant Itachi could counter the use of that jutsu easily if he implied he could detect them.



> I see them, and I don't see them doing anything.



If you see the eyes of the crow within the scan of Sasuke meeting Itachi in the cave then you'll notice the Sharingan on it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 14, 2009)

Turrin said:


> What? How Does that Make Sense? Kisame is Saying for someone like you retreat isn't necessary. So Yes Kisame is obviously talking about Itachi, but he is also talking about that situation in general. He is saying for some one like itachi in that situation retreat wasn't necessary.
> 
> And Mind you Itachi Disagreed with Kisame saying he did need to retreat because he had already used Ameretsu and Two Tsukyomi and needed to rest.
> 
> So there is only one way to take that Statement. Kisame thought in that situation Itachi could have beaten Jiraiya, however it seems that Kisame was ignorant to the amount of strain using MS three times caused Itachi so even Itachi himself seems to believe that Kisame's Statement is flawed or not taking into account all factors.



All valid. However, he already served his purpose there hence left -- the purpose was to show Konoha's higher ups that he was still alive. But I can see where you're coming from. 



> The Author Implied they were equals in quite a few direct ways that weren't nearly as ambiguous as Kisame's Statement in which the character the statement is being made by disagrees with the statement itself.  And lets not forget that this is all your opinion as to what the Author is implying one that is not shared by everyone and hence isn't even a real argument.



The author implied they were not equals given Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraiya as Sasuke surpassed Itachi. Indicating Itachi is probably between Jiraiya and Minato's level -- above Jiraiya yet below Minato.



> I Seems to me that Fusaku Just didn't know about the 5 Second Rule and its not confirmed he didn't know about God Realm's Ability. But Yeah its possible God Realm Didn't use his Ability Against Jiraiya. All i was saying was we can't be 100% sure with the information were have been given on that battle.



If Fukasaku knew then surely Kishi would've made him mention the power not Katsuyu. And surely Kakashi wouldn't have had to die to learn the God Realm's power. 

That points to Fukasaku not knowing. Especially when you consider the God Realm could have caused instant defeat for Jiraiya provided he was used.



> Then how exactly do you purpose that Naruto beats Jiraiya w/o FRS or Kyuubi Powers(I won't get into Minato because there isn't much info on him, but from what we know of him i find it hard to believe naruto could even land a hit on him)? I made a thread on it so i suggest we take it there though.



I'll wait for Sennin Mode Naruto to display more before commenting. Since there definitely was something to sway Fukasaku that way. Probably the use of nature energy in Taijutsu. 



> Old Familar Forms was what referenced the Techniques.



Actually it referenced to the two individuals. Hence Fukasaku's comment about Naruto surpassing those that came before him.



> Yes and what brought about the images of Jiraiya and Minato? It was naruto using Rasengan in conjunction with Sage Mode to Kill Asura. Bunta noticed those old Familar forms namely Rasengan and Sage Mode and told Pa Toad. Pa Toad then Said yes it seems that naruto has surpassed the previous generation. The Forms were always in a reference too Rasengan and Sage Mode both styles/forms/techniques Jiriaya/Minato used in combat which Naruto had surpassed them in.



However Fukasaku and Bunta would've implicated jutsu if this were the case. Going by the context, there were heavy heavy connotations that those shinobi were surpassed.



> Again how Does Raikage Dodging Amaterasu mean that his Speed is the Minimum amount you need to dodge it? He Dodge it easily it stands to reason that there would be people with slighter lesser speed that could dodge it with more difficulty, partially, or dodge if for a certain period of time before getting caught.



When I say dodge it I mean like this: 
Here

In which case the Raikage's speed at that page is a min. to dodge Amaterasu.

However if Jiraiya had knowledge he'd know Amaterasu wouldn't hit him instantly provided he's more than 5 metres away -- that knowledge is stripped of him here.



> How do you know. We have never Seen Minato's Speed in Combat before there is no way of knowing how fast Minato is other then Chi's Statement implying he was fast, which i'm sure he was, but that doesn't mean he was faster then everyone but Raikage R2.



Of course it doesn't mean he's faster than everyone, Jugo reacted to the punch of the Raikage who had that speed and Sasuke managed to land a Chidori with someone using that speed too.



> Nope but he has HM which has similar speed increasing effects.



However he needs a nervous system comparable to Minato and Bijuu levels of chakra to pump into Shunshin to dodge Amaterasu at 5 metres or below like how the Raikage did.



> A Hype Statement by Karin who has never seen Jiriaya before how do you know she wouldn't make the same comment about HM Jiraiya who also has a shit ton of Chakra?  Even if Raikage does have more then Jiraiya it just means he can maintain he power up the Raiton Shroud longer then Jiraiya can Maintain HM, which against an enemy like Itachi who has far less Stamina/Chakra then both is irrelevant.



But at the moment I have a comment to support the Raikages speed rather than Jiraiya's.



> Yeah he did, but we have no clue if that was a statement about Normal Speed or Raiton Shroud Enhanced Speed.



We need to assume its the base as an injured Sasuke dodged it whom logically should've been around Raikage base's speed as Sasuke was at his speed with the shroud when he was uninjured.



> Yes it does because IC White Zetsu over reacts to things.



But its meant to serve as an indication.



> I'm not arguing it wasn't, but Zetsu saying that Raikage is Fast in Base doesn't mean he is off the Charts fast in base mode even w/o Raiton Shroud.



I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that combines with the other two factors to make Amaterasu dodging possible.



> Even if you say Itachi was holding back letting Sasuke dodge it then that just means we have no reference point at all to determine how fast you have to be to dodge it other then really fast, which HM Jiraiya is.



Itachi didn't hold it back, Sasuke was just over 5m away. I do believe Jiraiya could do similar, but I'm saying he can't sort of side step it like the Raikage did.


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## Cyphon (Oct 14, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nope. He said "I can give you no higher praise" or "I can say no more" -- turned out to just be a praise to his former teacher as it was shown the God Realm wasn't used. The incident with Fukasaku should've made that clear.



I am unimpressed Munboy. You are completely missing the point to tard Pain. Lets go over a few things.

1. Nagato knows his full power whether he used it or not and still said what we are discussing. You are saying it as if he didn't know what he was capable of at the time and merely guessed, but that isn't the case. He saw Jiraiya going all out and knows what he can do going all out. 

2. You are putting a lot of emphasis on him not using God Realm. The issue with that is why would he need to? He had a 6 vs 1 advantage on someone with 1 arm. He is referring of course to a full powered Jiraiya that he couldn't surprise attack....or at least that would make more sense.

So, until the manga says something else in effects to a comparison between the 2, the comment/statement/praise stands. 



> Feats favour Naruto. Actually feats _do_ refute Jiraiya's chances of victory against Pain -- meet the God Realm.



Actually feats far from favor Naruto.

Jiraiya had 0 knowledge on what Pain could do, was in enemy territory and still managed to force Nagato to bring out all of the Pain bodies and have him admit Jiraiya could beat him. Oh, and Jiraiya had to work his way into SM while breaking down Pain's abilities and was then sneak attacked, lost an arm and still managed to fight in some way vs 6 people and kill 1.

Naruto on the other hand had, almost full knowledge though Ma and Pa + Katsuya, started in SM with Ma and Pa by his side, had 3 boss summons to back him up, had all 6 Pain bodies standing right in front of him meaning no surprises and no advantage of shared vision and had 1 Pain try and attack Tsunade so that Naruto got a free kill. Oh, I forgot to add that Pain basically knew nothing of Naruto while he knew a good many of Jiraiya's jutsu from training with him.

HE STILL COULDN'T HANDLE PAIN. He had to rely on Kyuubi and then plot hax. 

His inexperience and lack of variety clearly showed in the fight. You will honestly sit there and say that if Jiraiya started vs Pain in the very same scenario as Naruto he couldn't win? That is absolutely ridiculous.



> Do I believe the dub, or do I believe the original Japanese text. If this is such an issue I can grab a raw and get it translated.



Viz already gets the raw versions when they translate the volumes. Nothing would change because its not as if there was a bad word or something Viz would leave out.



> Yes, through a crow.



That's what I said. Through the crow he realized he was in a genjutsu.



> Firstly it wasn't mentioned nor implied that Jiraiya did.



Do you know the significance of the words "huge" or "enormous"? They are both beyond things like "lots" and such. 



> The Raikage was praised for his speed by Zetsu and implied by Bee.



He was praised because he was faster than them. That doesn't mean Jiraiya wasn't faster then them as well. 



> Shii mentions with the shroud he has reflexes comparable to the Yellow Flash



Okay, this is just a weird point for me.

1. Minato died (what is it now?) over 19 years ago. Shii looks like he is maybe 20. How the hell would he know what Minato could do?

2. So what if his reflexes were comparable to Minato. We don't even know what level that is. Could be less than Jiraiya's for all we know.



> and Karin said that he was drawning Bijuu amounts of chakra after Shii said that he was going to use Shunshin --



Yeah, but its not as if he put all his chakra into 1 Shunshin or he would simply run out of chakra. That doesn't even make sense.



> databook 1 says Shunshin speed is determined via amount of chakra added onto it.





> Ninjutsu, supplementary, D-rank
> Users: Gaara, Hatake Kakashi, etc.
> 
> A movement technique with extreme speed like a gust of wind!!
> ...



See the part that is bold. It says nothing about speed compared to the amount of chakra put in.



> The Sharingan can actually predict movements. Pain probably had good timing.



The Sharingan can predict movements but it can't see behind itself etc...Pain has no blind spots with his bodies. That is quite a different advantage. If Pain had 6 bodies spread out he would be able to follow Raikage because the instant he appears another body will see him and the body he is attacking can react.

Its no different than what happened to Jiraiya. Pain couldn't keep up unless he had a good view of him from different angles. 



> But he didn't pump Biju amounts of chakra into Shunshin.



Maybe not because he wasn't trying to move all that far during each one. However, his chakra is STRONGER than regular chakra, so it probably requires less anyway. 



> The argument here is that against the 6 Pains he didn't pump Biju amounts of chakra into the Shunshin no jutsu. Which if he could would've saved him a life.



Even if he did it wouldn't have mattered unless he used it to escape. The problem was the shared vision and his general lack of knowledge on Pain.



> Says more about Jugo's reaction time, however.



Yes, and Juugo isn't really that high level. Chunin-high Chunin. So if even he can keep up with Raikage base speed, Raikage isn't that overwhelmingly fast.



> He's missing the reflexes comparable to Minato's.



There is no mention of this ever in the manga. Again, please stop writing your own version of the story in debates. Its an atrocious way to make a point. 



> I meant Itachi could counter the use of that jutsu easily if he implied he could detect them.



Again, everyone can detect them. The person poofs away and a block of wood is left in place. 

Itachi was more commenting on the high level of Rebirth than anything.



> If you see the eyes of the crow within the scan of Sasuke meeting Itachi in the cave then you'll notice the Sharingan on it.



I did see the Sharingan. I also saw it on the bird Naruto saw. Still doesn't mean it cast genjutsu.


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## ? (Oct 14, 2009)

itachi has no counter to frog call. he gets pwned.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 14, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However, Kisame made a direct reference to "someone like you [Itachi]" -- he didn't mention other factors. That was the author implying Itachi was stronger than Jiraiya.



How does that imply anything or how does that even remotely imply Itachi is stronger then Jiraiya? 

I know what your going to say but it can easily be changed around to favor my *opinion* as well.




> Fukasaku lacked knowledge on the God Realm.
> link
> link
> 
> ...





> The Raikage's shown to be faster than any character we've seen. Thus you need a speed boost like this to counter Amaterasu. Jiraiya lacks this.
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed



There is no evidence that Deva was ever used or not. However if you reread the fight at one point before the fight cuts away you see all 6 paths jump at Jiraiya. Also nothing in Peins arsenal is strong enough to blow Jiraiya through a brick wall reinforced with rebar and half way across the area. So what on earth did he use? Rocket pein still has his arms attached at this time. 

Its all speculation however if you break down each panel and put them 1 by1 there is more evidence suggesting Deva was used. However the main question is why would Pa frog never report this?

Granted Raikage is the fastest hero shown thus far however Jiraiya speed in HM is not that far behind. He does have several feats that are on par with Raikages.




> Jiraiya doesn't have a nervous system as fast as Minato's, nor does he have an amped Raiton shroud and Biju level chakra which allows the Raikage to move the way he did.



True but Jiraiya is a chakra monster. He easily has one of the highest base chakra supplies in the manga thus far. HM gives him practically limit less chakra to boot.



> We get that you need to be pretty damn fast to dodge Amaterasu.



And HM jiraiya does not possess such feats? 




> Pain praised Jiraiya -- confirmed when it turns out the central Pain wasn't used.



Like i previously stated. There is an excellent read somewhere online of the fight broken down by each panel.




> Jiraiya was said to have lots of chakra. The Raikage was said to have Bijuu amounts, incomparable.



Hm Jiraiya has practically limitless supply of chakra. Which pretty much makes in Bijuu amount. Granted Raikage has more base chakra then Jiraiya going by hype

Technically if you want to get into detail Jiraiya in HM has more chakra then Raikage due to ma + pa.




> Actually it is. We have no indication or hint that Jiraiya's reflexes were comparable to Minato's.



Weak argument coming....

However Minato wanted/whished to fight his teacher due to the fact he thought Jiraiya was a perfect Shinobi and extremely powerful. That has to be saying much when Minato wants to fight you....






Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The opposition was truly Jiraiya. No one else. Jiraiya had eye contact too, which suggests a lot.



To most Jiraiya making eye contact with Itachi implies hes stronger then Itachi. Jiraiya knows Itachi is from the Uchiha clan and has MS so why on earth would he make eye contact if he  knows hes going to be raped via genjutsu.





> Yea, Jiraiya made eye contact and Itachi could've used a particular jutsu to end it.



Like previously stated. Most other boards imply what i previously posted except on this board people to think opposite 




> I used to support Jiraiya in this battle, but I realised that the evidence and implications we've gotten suggest otherwise. =/



I use to think Itachi had the advantage. Now I give Jiraiya the slight edge with the new evidence shown




> The Sharingan can actually predict movements. Pain probably had good timing. Pain hasn't shown that he could follow the Raikage's movements, he's not faced one as fast as the Raikage.



Speculation. We wont know or will ever know if Pein faced anyone fast or near raikage speed except Jiraiya. Once in HM mode he easily beat pein in taijutsu untill the three other bodies were used. 




> He's missing the reflexes comparable to Minato's. Sennin Mode could serve as the shroud replacement, but then again Jiraiya's base form wasn't so commended on speed so its doubtful.



Granted all that is true however we technically never got to see what base jiraiya was like in taijutsu besides in the pein fight and he happened to be fighting someone with shared vision.


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## Kool-Aid (Oct 14, 2009)

Inu-Sennin said:


> itachi has no counter to frog call. he gets pwned.



he has the sharingan to predict what's about to happen, and they need a certin amount of time to get it off.

i think itachi can use susano-o in time.


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## Cyphon (Oct 14, 2009)

Kool-Aid said:


> he has the sharingan to predict what's about to happen, and they need a certin amount of time to get it off.
> 
> i think itachi can use susano-o in time.



Susanoo doesn't block out sound.


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## Kool-Aid (Oct 14, 2009)

true, but frog song is considered an attack, and Yata no Kagami reflects all attacks.

raikage was able to grab sasuke for a slam, but his slam barely hurt him if at all.

also itachi was able to walk at sasuke and touch him without susano-o being in the way, but sasuke's shurikens were blocked.

things can get through as long as it's not an attack.


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## Cyphon (Oct 14, 2009)

Kool-Aid said:


> true, but frog song is considered an attack, and Yata no Kagami reflects all attacks.



Technically it is a song.



> things can get through as long as it's not an attack.



Its not an attack, it is sound.

DB mentions about ninjutsu and taijutsu, but doesn't say it would block out genjutsu.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2009)

> All valid. However, he already served his purpose there hence left -- the purpose was to show Konoha's higher ups that he was still alive. But I can see where you're coming from.


Yeah i'm not arguing that his purpose wasn't over just that Kisame implying itachi could win in that situation doesn't mean much in a normal 1v1 scenario. But as long you see where i'm coming from, okay. 



> The author implied they were not equals given Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraiya as Sasuke surpassed Itachi. Indicating Itachi is probably between Jiraiya and Minato's level -- above Jiraiya yet below Minato.


Maybe i'm missing what you mean, but i don't think its implied Sasuke surpassed Itachi. And as i have stated i disagree with Naruto having Surpassed Minato. But even if i didn't think this way i still don't see the connection you trying to make that some how implies that kishi was trying to convey to reader that Naruto > Minato > Itachi > Jiraiya. 



> If Fukasaku knew then surely Kishi would've made him mention the power not Katsuyu. And surely Kakashi wouldn't have had to die to learn the God Realm's power.


Fusaku didn't know about the 5 Second Rule which is what Katsuya mentioned. Kakashi died to find out the 5 second rule not the power itself. 



> That points to Fukasaku not knowing. Especially when you consider the God Realm could have caused instant defeat for Jiraiya provided he was used.


I honestly don't see how Deva Realm could cause instant death for Jiraiya if he used it unless were talking Chou Shinra Tensi or Chibaku Tensi. Personally i feel like Jiriaya is one of the most equipped shinobi to deal with that sort of Technique. 



> I'll wait for Sennin Mode Naruto to display more before commenting. Since there definitely was something to sway Fukasaku that way. Probably the use of nature energy in Taijutsu.


There is really nothing more for Sannin Mode Naruto to show he isn't going to have a Ninjutsu or technique that we didn't see in the Pain fight when that was his greatest enemy he has ever faced. At least not w/o training. So you can believe what you will, but i don't really think you can expect me to be swayed by your argument until you have proof that Naruto has Surpassed Jiraiya w/o FRS or Kyuubi. Nor do i think you can claim its a credible argument and use it as supporting evidence in other parts of our debate. 



> Actually it referenced to the two individuals. Hence Fukasaku's comment about Naruto surpassing those that came before him.


Yet Gammabunta Clearly saw those forms after naruto had attacked using Sage Mode and Rasengan. Hence the forms are in reference to the Techniques. Plus if you can't prove Naruto is Superior to Minato/Jiriaya w/o FRS/Kyuubi through Feats, Abilities, etc.. then i don't see any reason to continue debating this. 



> However Fukasaku and Bunta would've implicated jutsu if this were the case. Going by the context, there were heavy heavy connotations that those shinobi were surpassed.


Why Would Fusaku and Bunta have to specify if its implied by the context of what they are saying? You say that there was heavy connotations that those shinobi were surpassed yet you have no proof as to how these shinobi were surpassed w/o FRS and Kyuubi. 

So Your argument basically amounts to a Statement that can be interpreted a number of ways by PA-Toad with no Proof supporting your interpretation of it. I Can prove that Jiriaya would beat naruto w/o Kyuubi/FRS and is superior to him. I can prove that Minato would WTF Pwn Naruto w/o Kyuubi/FRS.



> When I say dodge it I mean like this:
> Study up, noob
> 
> In which case the Raikage's speed at that page is a min. to dodge Amaterasu.


Again where is your proof that its the Minimum. 



> However if Jiraiya had knowledge he'd know Amaterasu wouldn't hit him instantly provided he's more than 5 metres away -- that knowledge is stripped of him here.


W/o Knowing the Minimum is impossible to say Jiriaya couldn't dodge it just like Raikage w/o Knowledge of the Technique once he saw the flames forming and reacted to them. 



> Of course it doesn't mean he's faster than everyone, Jugo reacted to the punch of the Raikage who had that speed and Sasuke managed to land a Chidori with someone using that speed too.


Hence My point we have Juugo and Suigetsu Reacting to R1 Raikage's Movements. Can you honestly see Juugo and Suigetsu reacting to HM Jiriaya's Movements? Now Obviously R2 Raikage is Faster especially when using Shunshin, but HM Jiriaya in my opinion is also a great deal faster then R1 Raikage so its really hard to tell how big a difference in speed there is between R2 Raikage and HM Jiraiya. Again i really doubt its that big. 



> However he needs a nervous system comparable to Minato


Again we have no clue what Minato's level is other then if its equal to R1 Raikage then Juugo and Suigetsu were able to react to it so i would then confidently say that HM Jiraiya has better Reflexes then Minato. 



> Bijuu levels of chakra to pump into Shunshin to dodge Amaterasu at 5 metres or below like how the Raikage did.


You don't need Bijuu Levels of Chakra to do the same Shunshin as Raikage unless you think said Shunshin required Raikage to use up the same amount of Chakra a Bijuu has.  



> But at the moment I have a comment to support the Raikages speed rather than Jiraiya's.


I'm going to assume that you mean Stamina/chakra because thats what Karin's Statement was about. And Yes i do have a statement from Fusaku about how Jiraiya had Exceptionally high Stamina/Chakra which is why he was capable of learning Sage Mode(And this is in Base) and i also have the Data-book which has him Capped out at a 5(Again in base). 



> We need to assume its the base as an injured Sasuke dodged it whom logically should've been around Raikage base's speed as Sasuke was at his speed with the shroud when he was uninjured.


Um no we don't there is nothing to support that Raikage has the the ability to Dodge Rarri-Atto w/o the Raiton Shroud and by the way the Statement is Actually that Raikage deflected Rari-Atto not dodged it(Sennin of Hardwork), which w/o the Raiton Shroud i see no way for Raikage to deflect Rari-Atto. 



> But its meant to serve as an indication


Yes, but i wouldn't take it to mean that Raikage is Insanely fast in Base as White Zetsu tends to overreact about things. 



> I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that combines with the other two factors to make Amaterasu dodging possible.


Thats fine but Jiraiya is also "Fast" in Base, he has his own Power up that Greatly increases his Speed to an exceptionally high level, and has an insanely high amount of chakra/stamina. So I don't see what makes you so certain that Jiriaya would fail at dodging it. 



> Itachi didn't hold it back, Sasuke was just over 5m away. I do believe Jiraiya could do similar, but I'm saying he can't sort of side step it like the Raikage did


Okay so in a normal Situation were Jiriaya has his intel we can agree that he would likely be able to dodge Ameretsu, thats good. And i'm glad we can agree that Itachi didn't hold back.

In This scenario i'm not saying he could deffinatly Side-Step like Raikage and Completely dodge it, but i'm just saying that its not impossible since the things needed for Jiraiya to dodge it are present: High Speed in Base, Power Up that Greatly Increases his Speed, High Level Shunshin, and Massive Amount of Chakra. I also don't discount the idea that Jiraiya may be able to partially dodge it where his arm gets hit instead of his chest.


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## Soul (Oct 14, 2009)

Turrin said:


> How is Creating Chakra Construct Snakes Hax?



... Creating Trees was already too haxxed, since it was a living thing; only Shodai could create a living thing with chakra, and that was a great feat.



> Its chakra taking the form of an animal that performs a single action at the users command. Its really not hax and it make sense within the confines of the manga *where creating almost anything is possible with chakra.*



False; you can't create animals/humans with chakra.



> What doesn't make sense is that Itachi isn't creating the crows with his Chakra he needs to have Actual living Crows present to project his chakra at. Its Hax-PNJ as shit if  i am to believe Itachi has enough crows hidden in his cloak to be able to form multiple crow clones in the heat of battle. Not to mention the fact that one would see the Crows forming into the Bushin rather then the bushin appearing in an instant which it does if that was not Genjutsu.



Maybe it is haxxed too, but he has showed it.


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## the box (Oct 15, 2009)

> TheYellowFlash10 said:
> 
> 
> > ... Creating Trees was already too haxxed, since it was a living thing; only Shodai could create a living thing with chakra, and that was a great feat.
> ...


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## Klue (Oct 15, 2009)

Itachi, on the account that he has Susanoo - he's invincible, for now.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2009)

> Creating Trees was already too haxxed, since it was a living thing; only Shodai could create a living thing with chakra, and that was a great feat.


Under this assumption they would not be living they would be chakra constructs that look like Snakes, but Snake Hands Doesn't Create Living Snakes with there own Minds. 



> False; you can't create animals/humans with chakra.


True, but you can create Chakra Constructs that look like Humans(Kage Bushin) and Animals



> Maybe it is haxxed too, but he has showed it.


Then you agree it makes no sense whatsoever, okay. Just saying it would make more sense if it required prep-time and the times we did see it used in the heat of battle was Genjutsu. If not as you seem to agree it makes no sense and is Hax-PNJ.


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## Soul (Oct 15, 2009)

the box said:


> orochimaru also accomplished this



Created life only with his chakra?
False



> kage bushins, transformation jutsus, shoten clones. many ways my firend



Henge and Kage Bunshins aren't animals/humans.
Shoten clones are just people with other people's abilities.


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## ? (Oct 15, 2009)

Kool-Aid said:


> he has the sharingan to predict what's about to happen, and they need a certin amount of time to get it off.
> 
> i think itachi can use susano-o in time.


he needs prep for frog song. not frog call.
and susanoo is not sound proof, evidence he was having a conversation with sasuke while it was up.


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## Federer (Oct 15, 2009)

This battle has been done many times, there was even a general thread where Itachi clearly won. But for some reason, people who adore Jiraiya accuse the Itachi fans of being biased and using dupe accounts to win the poll. If Itachi wins, it's because of that, but if Jiraiya wins it, there's nothing wrong with it. As if Jiraiya doesn't have tards.

My view on this match-up. 

Let's compare their stats, first. 



> *Jiraiya:*
> Ninjutsu: 5
> Taijutsu: 4.5
> Genjutsu: 3
> ...



As we clearly can see, Itachi has better stats, their overall stats might be the same, but Itachi has reached the maximum of more area's. And as a reminder, these are base stats, meaning, the Sharingan (and it's variations) and the Sennin Mo-do are not counted in this. Let's move on. 

What do we know?

In this manga, there are two characters who are faster than the Sharingan, Itachi with his seal formation and the Raikage with his reflexes. Neither Jiraiya or Rari Atto B have speed feats that surpass the Sharingan, so I don't know why people think that SM Jiraiya will be too fast for Itachi. Hebi Sasuke, who's fast enough to suprise Akatsuki member Deidara, and suprise Rari Atto B has comparable and maybe even better speed feats than SM Jiraiya. Itachi was fine with handeling Hebi Sasuke, who had the power of the CS and Orochimaru. And a body of Pein Rikudō was capable of holding his own against SM Jiraiya, he wasn't that fast. Even Kakashi and Naruto (base) could keep up with a body. 

Even with the shared vision, if the opponent moves too fast for you, you can't block it, but Jiraiya's speed wasn't too fast. 


Jiraiya has not enough knowledge of the Mangekyō Sharingan, he was suprised seeing Amaterasu destroying his "indestructible" jutsu. He also made eye contact with Itachi, meaning he was confident enough to break a doujutsu genjutsu, but being confident doesn't equal that he can actually do it. 

Jiraiya starts off in SM, but what happens if he eats a Tsukiyomi? Jiraiya has no Bijuu that will save him, neither can Fukasaku or Shima save him. And here I tell you why. 

*Databook 3 - Sennin Mode:*

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sage* Mode (仙人モード, Sennin Mo-do)
Senjutsu, No rank, Supplementary
User: Jiraiya

The lion-like child of the toads is overflowing with spirit!!
Wielding the "senjutsu" that surpasses ninjutsu!!

The form form Jiraiya showed to use senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain. He summons the Two Great Toad Sages from Mt. Myouboku into his body and by borrowing their power, *his body absorbs a great amount of "nature energy". By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use senjutsu* (仙術, Sage Techniques), rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!! By uniting with the Two Great Toad Sages into one body, they can cooperate like a Trinity. This is certainly the domain of Sages.

[picture of Jiraiya drawing an extra line on his face with his blood]
→↓He Draws a line under both his eyes using his own blood. Using this as a substitute for the "contract seal of blood,"** he can summon the legendary Two Great Toad Sages into his own body.
[picture of Jiraiya in Sage Mode, with Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders]

*Sennin (仙人, "sage") are a kind of immortal super-humans from Chinese and Japanese mythology. They are basically humans (or the spirits of humans) that have lived as hermits and have become so great that they gained the power to perform certain miracles and became immortal. One of the most famous Sennin is the Gama Sennin, or Toad Sage, from whom Jiraiya got his nickname.
**Keiyaku no Keppan (契約の血判); the blood one needs to sacrifice before summoning something.




Pay attention to the bolded part. Fukasaku and Shima do not share the same chakra "network", they merely fuse with him to give him nature energy, Jiraiya uses the nature energy and uses Senjutsu. If Jiraiya eats a Tsukiyomi, which happens instantly, his body won't move anymore, if Fukasaku and Shima still gives him nature energy, without knowing that Jiraiya can't use his body anymore, he will turn into a frog stone. Normal chakra can't save him either, the damage by Tsukiyomi has been done, unlike most genjutsu, disturbing the chakra flow won't make any difference anymore. Tsukiyomi ends it for Jiraiya.

Jiraiya's chakra is going crazy, it doesn't have effect on Fukasaku or Shima, they do not share the same chakra network, they only supply Jiraiya with nature energy. 


If Amaterasu hits on Jiraiya in close-range, he can't dodge it, he has to tank it. The burning proces of Amaterasu is kinda slow, but if it hits the opponent, it's just a matter of time that the opponent will perish. Question is, are Fukasaku and Shima fast enough to separate their bodies from Jiraiya and if so, do they have a jutsu to save Jiraiya from Amaterasu? But don't forget, Itachi won't just stand there, he can use enton and manipulate Amaterasu, just like how his Amaterasu was chasing Sasuke in their fight, or he doesn't allow Fukasaku or his wife Shima to get near Jiraiya. And I highly doubt that Jiraiya can use his fire supress jutsu while he's being burned alive. 

And to make things clear, Jiraiya cannot dodge Amaterasu point blank in a close range, only the Raikage has done that, with increasing his chakra to Bijuu level (higher chakra than Jiraiya) and enhance his speed and reflexes with the Raiton armor. 

*Databook 3 - Susano'o:*

*Spoiler*: __ 



NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI: Susanoo (Mysterious, All-Encompassing Assistance Ability*)
User: Uchiha Itachi
Offensive; Defensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: none

Main text

There are two doujutsu the use of which is allowed exclusively to those who have awakened to the clairvoyant eyes of Heaven, the Mangekyou Sharingan: Amaterasu, which speaks of Light and the material world, and Tsukuyomi, symbolizing the spiritual world and Darkness**. Only in them who hold both of those, dwells the power of the wild, rampaging god... Susanoo. The materialized chakra shapes itself after the wargod's commanding face and powerful physique, and the fierce spirit won't subside until the destruction of all the enemies in its line of sight...!!

There's a reason why Susanoo can boast perfect flawlessness in its offense and defense: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands. The Sword of Totsuka* in its right hand, which will mow down any kind of enemy, and the Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy.

Captions

-In the pupils that grasp the principles behind Heaven and Earth, dwells the valorous sword-wielding, shield-bearing Aragami***!!

-Protecting its caster, it destroys the enemy!

-In its left and right hands are held the unparalleled, wondrous Sacred Treasures* of virtues miraculous.

Picture comments

-Only those who have carried mastery of Mangekyou Sharingan - the doujutsu feared by those around it as the strongest - to its extremes will come onto the god's territory. A guardian deity to its caster, it eats away their life at the same time.

-The sake flowing out of the gourd assumes the shape of a sword, becoming the Totsuka! In addition, the souls absorbed by it are sealed there.

-The Sword of Totsuka
*One swing of the Sword of Kusanagi* has the power to throw the people it stabs into an genjutsu world of intoxicating dreams, and seal them away for eternity. The sword itself carries a fuuinjutsu.*

-The Mirror of Yata
*The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.*




Pay close attention to the Mirror of Yata and The Sword of Totsuka. 

If Jiraiya gets hit by the Sword of Totsuka, it's game over, we have seen how fast Susano'o is, it destroyed snake heads in a matter of seconds. There's also no jutsu in this manga that damaged a complete Susano'o with the Mirror of Yata, even Sasuke's imperfect Susano'o was capable of defending it's user against four different jutsu at the same time (Sunagakure nin + Kumogakure nin) and was capable of tanking Chōjūrōs Hiramekarei and the acid of the Mizukage, while the user was in a terrible shape. 

A complete Susano'o with the Mirror of Yata still has to be defeated as of now. 

Since both of them are in character, Jiraiya won't use his giant frogs immediately. He used a huge frog when his opponent Pain used it earlier and in Konoha, where there was a giant snake. Jiraiya does use Kuchiyose often, but he doesn't do it of the bat. 

Still, we have seen that a capable sharingan user can cast a genjutsu on a summon, force him into sleep or do other things. If normal genjutsu won't work, there's still Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to finish the frog. 

About Frog song genjutsu:

Magen Gamarinshou is a powerful genjutsu, but not something that the sharingan user can't overcome, especially if this sharingan user is also known as the best genjutsu user. 

*Databook 3 - Magen Gamarinshou:*

*Spoiler*: __ 



Demonic Illusion: Toad Confrontation Chant (魔幻・蝦蟇臨唱, Magen: Gamarinshou)
Genjutsu, Senjutsu, No rank, Offensive, Supplementary, All ranges
Users: Shima, Fukasaku

*When it reaches your ears, you're the prisoner of the demonic illusion*
A one-hear certain kill vocal duet!!

[picture of Fukasaku and Shima singing together, while sitting on Jiraiya's shoulder]
↑On both shoulders of "Sage Mode" Jiraiya are the "genjutsu" singing married toad couple...!! After several centuries of married life, the exquisite harmony of the Two Great Sage Toads distorts even the airspace!!

*The person who hears it is lured into a "genjutsu world that binds the mind"*
When two or more toads come together and sing the secret musical scale passed down on Mt. Myouboku, the person who hears the harmony is lured into a "genjutsu world that binds the mind". Because learning it requires many long years of training, the husband and wife Great Toad Sage are the only one's with the skills to perform it.


[picture of the sound reaching Animal Realm's ears and him feeling the effects of the genjutsu]
↑The "Toad Confrontation Chant" only has to reach the target's sense of hearing to be a success. On the other hand, because it uses sound, it also has a weakness in that it gives away the users' whereabouts





*Databook 1 - Sharingan:*

*Spoiler*: __ 



Kekkei Genkai: Sharingan
Users: Hatake Kakashi, Uchiha Sasuke
Support, Short, Mid, Long ranges. Rank: none.

Main text

The Kekkei Genkai withheld in the blood of Konoha's finest lineage, the Uchiha clan. This unique ability, manifested only in a mere fraction [of people] even within the clan, is characterized by comma*-shaped markings in one's pupils. On top of an all-encompassing insight and powerful hypnosis, these eyes are hosts to a jutsu-copying ability that memorizes the techniques their gaze falls upon in an instant, and replicates them. Just like Kakashi who, in his fight against Zabuza, used it in such a way as to look like he could predict the future; according to their methods of use, the field of variations the caster can apply to their offense and defense expands indefinitely!!

The power of insight hidden inside these eyes discerns the mechanics of all ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu without restriction, putting it above the crowd even by doujutsu standards. Furthermore, one can even see the patterns of their opponent's movements and attacks, striking firmly without fear of a counter-attack, avoiding lethal blows when defending, evading from offensive moves and so forth: one's combat ability is significantly improved in all kinds of aspects. An awe-inspiring ability for which the "Clairvoyant Eyes of Heaven**" would be an appropriate name indeed!!

The Sharingan's true power, in addition to the threat posed by its insight... is its copying ability, that of making one's own any technique one sets eyes upon. *[Chakra, handseals... all the principles bringing the jutsu into existence will be recorded into the caster's memory in the blink of an eye, making its utilization possible. Of course, the necessary volume of chakra and physical ability requirements must be met, but should one find themselves in some kind of dire situation, the Uchiha blood will demonstrate its accumulated experience, and never will those who have inherited it know any limits* (tn: i.e even if you can't use the jutsu you've copied, the info will still prove most useful provided you can rub two brain cells together)!!

Captions

-The Uchiha clan's God-given, clairvoyant doujutsu, transmitted by blood!!

-Seeing through something and duplicating its principles for oneself.

Picture comments

-The Sharingan in Kakashi's left eye. With that power, he's copied over one thousand techniques.

-Sasuke's Sharingan slightly differs from Kakashi's. Is it because it's not complete yet, or is there something else (tn: just goes to show you Kishi will squeeze all the mystery he can out of any situation, LOL)?

*-Reading through countless illusions in an instant. The jutsu's fundamentals, chakra amount and the like: those eyes will reflect matters in their entirety!!*

-Receiving a taijutsu blow only once, he makes it his own move!!




It's a 50/50 whether the Sharingan can break the sound based genjutsu, it uses chakra, something that the sharingan can see, it binds the mind, the basic method of using genjutsu, take over someone's mind and control the chakra and cast an illusion. It's not an invincible jutsu, it may require some time, but due to the Sharigan's predicting and copying abilities, the jutsu can be undone. Orochimaru can vouch for that, he was the victim of the Sharingan, twice, even. 

Doton: Yomi Numa

Ah, the Swamp of the Underworld, versus Susano'o. Funny thing is, when Itachi is forced to use Susano'o, a jutsu which is unknown to Jiraiya, people immediately assume that he will use Doton: Yomi Numa. It would be logical that Jiraiya will first use a different offensive jutsu to look at what kind of jutsu he's dealing with, he will use jutsus like, Senpō: Kebari Senbon, Senpō: Goemon, Chō Ōdama Rasengan much faster than Doton: Yomi Numa. 

And even if he uses Doton: Yomi Numa, people immediately assume that Susano'o will sink. Itachi, in a very bad shape was able to walk freely, Sasuke with an incomplete Susano'o was able to walk freely. They can also use the Sword of Totsuka and cut some parts of the Swamp and jump/walk somewhere safe. Another point is, is the Sword of Totsuka faster or slower than Jiraiya using Doton: Yomi Numa?

Either way, I wrote lots of things, but Tsukiyomi finishes this battle, especially if they are in character. No one, especially Jiraiya fans, can't deny that Jiraiya will use his poses and brag about himself before the battle starts. If Jiraiya is hit with Tsukiyomi in his Sage Mode, it will be all over. 

Conclusion: Uchiha Itachi wins with high diffeculty, I'd say 6/10.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> As we clearly can see, Itachi has better stats, their overall stats might be the same, but Itachi has reached the maximum of more area's.



Again, that doesn't make his stats "better". Even if he specializes in more areas, that doesn't mean his big weaknesses wouldn't show. His lack of power means his high taijutsu stat isn't going to mean much even if he can land a hit on Jiraiya and it also means that Jiraiya landing hits are going to be far more effective.

The Stamina factor is common sense. 

Anyway, their stats are equal. You can't just claim a category is less useful etc...



> Neither Jiraiya or Rari Atto B have speed feats that surpass the Sharingan, so I don't know why people think that SM Jiraiya will be too fast for Itachi.



I don't think there is much argument here. Its not that he will be "too fast", its just the argument that he is "faster" than Itachi. Not by so much that he could completely run through him or anything mind you.



> Hebi Sasuke, who's fast enough to suprise Akatsuki member Deidara, and suprise Rari Atto B has comparable and maybe even better speed feats than SM Jiraiya. Itachi was fine with handeling Hebi Sasuke, who had the power of the CS and Orochimaru.



This is all your opinion and is more or less irrelevant because there is simply no way to prove it. Well, he did surprise Deidara, that is fact, I meant the other stuff.

And again, this is where we see the importance of stats. Itachi was actually able to grab and manhandle Sasuke, he wont be able to accomplish that vs Jiraiya. There is too much of a strength gap. 

So you are more or less comparing the incomparable.  



> And a body of Pein Rikudō was capable of holding his own against SM Jiraiya, he wasn't that fast. Even Kakashi and Naruto (base) could keep up with a body.



Actually you are wrong. Every time Jiraiya had a 1 on 1 he proved far too fast for Pain. Only when Pain had the advantage of shared vision to see him coming from all angles was he able to react.

_secret meeting place of the Narakano temple_

Here as you can see Pain charged in to attack (and from a standstill) Jiraiya kicked so fast that Pain couldn't even put his hands up to defend himself. 

So lets put Itachi in the same scenario. Even if he can put up a defense a kick with that power would most likely shatter the bones in his arms. I mean, Pain went blind due to the power of the kick.



> Even with the shared vision, if the opponent moves too fast for you, you can't block it, but Jiraiya's speed wasn't too fast.



Again, based on what was displayed in the fight the shared vision does make up for an opponent moving too fast.

this?

Without shared vision there is no way the Pain body could have reacted to his speed.

this?

Here Jiraiya was behind him and attacking before he knew what was going on, but because the other Pain saw him in advance he was able to block it.

this?

Now, lets take that same Pain body and put him in a 1 on 1 scenario.

this?

Jiraiya was too fast for him to even call forth a summon that he already had the seals made for and summoning is one of the fastest jutsu there is.



> Jiraiya has not enough knowledge of the Mangekyō Sharingan, he was suprised seeing Amaterasu destroying his "indestructible" jutsu.



Your basing his knowledge 4 years in the past BEFORE he saw and sealed Amaterasu. If you consider that he was someone who spied on Akutsuki, saw the jutsu's effects, sealed them (most likely to find out what they were) and how many characters who have never seen Amaterasu know about it now, its kind of crazy to think Jiraiya doesn't know more about it.

Admittedly it is still speculation on my part, but with good reason.



> Jiraiya starts off in SM, but what happens if he eats a Tsukiyomi? Jiraiya has no Bijuu that will save him, neither can Fukasaku or Shima save him. And here I tell you why.



Honestly in SM he may be able to tank the damage. He has "stronger" chakra which could also make a difference in hard it is for Itachi to control a chakra he doesn't know about and it helps him recover. That is just guessing obviously, so don't take it as me saying he could definitely do it.



> If Jiraiya eats a Tsukiyomi, which happens instantly, his body won't move anymore, if Fukasaku and Shima still gives him nature energy, without knowing that Jiraiya can't use his body anymore, he will turn into a frog stone.



I think because they are fused and need to provide him with balance they pay attention for stuff like this. I mean its not a sure thing, but as good a relationship Jiraiya has with all his summons, its hard to say they wouldn't notice something was wrong.

Anyway, if he does take a Tsukiyami, its hard to say how it would work against SM. Its up in the air IMO.



> Normal chakra can't save him either, the damage by Tsukiyomi has been done, unlike most genjutsu, disturbing the chakra flow won't make any difference anymore. Tsukiyomi ends it for Jiraiya.



Well, it isn't normal chakra. 



> Question is, are Fukasaku and Shima fast enough to separate their bodies from Jiraiya and if so, do they have a jutsu to save Jiraiya from Amaterasu?



1 thing they could do is reverse summon him somewhere. Its hard to say how well it would work, but if they got him to Konoha there are probably people who could use a fire seal or something etc...

Again, definitely an awkward scenario to foresee. Too many what ifs.



> And to make things clear, Jiraiya cannot dodge Amaterasu point blank in a close range, only the Raikage has done that, with increasing his chakra to Bijuu level (higher chakra than Jiraiya) and enhance his speed and reflexes with the Raiton armor.



Increasing his chakra to Bijuu levels doesn't really mean anything. Jiraiya has enormous amounts of chakra and in SM they are "stronger" chakra's as well, which makes a difference. If anything he has better chakra than Raikage.

So yeah, if Raikage did it with Shunshin there is a good chance Jiraiya can too.



> Since both of them are in character, Jiraiya won't use his giant frogs immediately. He used a huge frog when his opponent Pain used it earlier and in Konoha, where there was a giant snake. Jiraiya does use Kuchiyose often, but he doesn't do it of the bat.



Summoning is his most common and often used jutsu. You can't say it is OOC. It was the first thing he used vs Itachi and Kisame and the 2nd thing with Frog Stomach, it was the first thing he used when we first met him and he took out Ebisu, it was the first thing he used in his return to Konoha to take out the attacking snakes, it was the first or 2nd thing he attempted vs Oro (but his chakra was messed up) and it was one of his first jutsu vs Pain. 

That isn't even counting the house he trapped the Rain nin with, or the travel frog he used to infiltrate the village and such.



> Still, we have seen that a capable sharingan user can cast a genjutsu on a summon, force him into sleep or do other things.



Correction. We have seen a Sharingan catch his teammate summon and force him to do things. Not to say a genjutsu wouldn't work on an enemy, but they are far more prepared to defend themselves and such.



> Magen Gamarinshou is a powerful genjutsu, but not something that the sharingan user can't overcome, especially if this sharingan user is also known as the best genjutsu user. It may require some time, but due to the Sharigan's predicting and copying abilities, the jutsu can be undone. Orochimaru can vouch for that, he was the victim of the Sharingan, twice, even.



It paralyzes the nerves and mind of the use, meaning they most likely can't use their chakra. Questionable of course.

Anyway, there is a change Itachi can overcome it with time, but he really wont have time. 



> It would be logical that Jiraiya will first use a different offensive jutsu to look at what kind of jutsu he's dealing with, he will use jutsus like, Senpō: Kebari Senbon, Senpō: Goemon, Chō Ōdama Rasengan much faster than Doton: Yomi Numa.



I doubt he would try anything that requires close range vs something that size. He may even call out summons of his won first.

Anyway, you are correct he may not jump to Yomi Numa, but you are incorrect in saying the other jutsu are faster. Of course, if he doesn't use summons Yomi Numa very well may be the first jutsu he uses, as that is what he used vs Oro's summons.



> And even if he uses Doton: Yomi Numa, people immediately assume that Susano'o will sink. Itachi, in a very bad shape was able to walk freely, Sasuke with an incomplete Susano'o was able to walk freely.



Not sure what them being able to walk freely means. They can't just walk over the swamp as they would you know....be trapped in it.



> They can also use the Sword of Totsuka and cut some parts of the Swamp and jump/walk somewhere safe.



Again, if they are in it they can't just cut around it to get out.


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Yomi Numa



Because ninja's haven't been shown to walk on liquid surfaces, right? 



> Sasuke tried to use eye genjutsu vs Itachi which is different, especially since the Sharingan helps his genjutsu skills as well as him having an eye reflecting genjutsu or whatever he used vs Kurenai.



Sasuke had improved in genjutsu and yet was still unable to to keep up with Itachi during their genjutsu battle.



> Anyway, Jiraiya uses sound for his that paralyzes the minds and the nerves. Its a bit different. You COULD be right, but its unsure.



All genjutsu works on the same principle, which is to control the opponents chakra flow. The Frog Song uses sound to accomplish this, it isn't any different from the flute song genjutsu used by the female Sound ninja.



> All he had to do was open his eye. Anyone is capable of that. Especially when the person attacking them gives a mini speech on what is about to happen.



I'm pointing out Itachi's reaction speed. I doubt Jiraiya is going to be able to catch Itachi off guard.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Because ninja's haven't been shown to walk on liquid surfaces, right?



Not ones with chakra inside them that drains the power from your body and pulls you in. Unless, you can provide scans.



> Sasuke had improved in genjutsu and yet was still unable to to keep up with Itachi during their genjutsu battle.



Kind of what I said isn't it?



> All genjutsu works on the same principle, which is to control the opponents chakra flow. The Frog Song uses sound to accomplish this, it isn't any different from the flute song genjutsu used by the female Sound ninja.



Except it is much stronger and completely paralyzes the user. Shikamaru was still able to manipulate his shadow jutsu when he was under the genjutsu.

Anyhow, I said it before, he may be able to break it with time, but time isn't really going to be in abundance.



> I'm pointing out Itachi's reaction speed. I doubt Jiraiya is going to be able to catch Itachi off guard.



Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the situation I guess.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 15, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Because ninja's haven't been shown to walk on liquid surfaces, right?


They have.But not on chakra infused swamps that can sink huge summons 




Cursed Avenger said:


> Sasuke had improved in genjutsu and yet was still unable to to keep up with Itachi during their genjutsu battle.


Sasuke is Sasuke and Jiraiya is Jiraiya.
Jiraiya was never much of a genjutsu _user_,hence,as he told Naruto,had to become very adept at dispelling it.

***
As for the matchup,most of the arguments that support Itachi seem to rely on him using Tsukuyomi before Jiraiya can seriously sagefuck him.Even if Jiraiya is hit with Tsukuyomi,Ni Dai Sennin can use the Frog Croak to paralyze and then slice him up.
Jiraiya can recover from Tsukuyomi but Itachi can't survive without a head


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## killer455 (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Jiraiya can Shunshin Amaterasu in SM.



Raikage's base shikai form is about roughly as tough and fast as Jirayia's SM bankai switch.

in order to dodge amaterasu igniton blast (casted by an amateur like sauce) he decided to switch to his Bankai, which was charging his already super-haxed bodily physique up with constant arcs of massively thick electrical discharges, cranking it up to Minato's free-styla teleportation speeds.

Killerbee (the fastest speedster with Gai, Itachi and Raikage and any shikai/bankai-switched speedster like H/SM Jirayia) implied this stuff to be as fast as his own Rarri-Atto Bijuu Jump.

you are free to disapprove however.

(J-man is awesome too)


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

killer455 said:


> Raikage's base shikai form is about roughly as tough and fast as Jirayia's SM bankai switch.



Not really. Juugo was able to easily react and block Raikage's base form where someone the likes of Pain (who fought even with Kakashi) couldn't keep up with Jiraiya at all.

Its weird to compare Juugo and Pain, but its safe to assume Pain is on a higher level than Juugo.



> Killerbee (the fastest speedster with Gai, Itachi and Raikage and any shikai/bankai-switched speedster like H/SM Jirayia) implied this stuff to be as fast as his own Rarri-Atto Bijuu Jump.



Nothing Bee did seemed faster than Jiraiya, so I don't really understand this point.


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## Keile (Oct 15, 2009)

Itachi wins.

He can trap Jiraya in his genjutsu, and even if Jiraiya breaks out of one or two, he can't resist forever. Ma and Pa require time and patience to use their ultimately genjutsu, something that Itachi may or not allow. Itachi can use Amaretsu, probably not as readily or as expertly as Sasuke, but well enough to apply considerable control and power - enough to stop an incoming Jiraya or for use as a counter. He can always use his full-powered Susanoo and end it, anyway. Whatever speed advantage Itachi doesn't already have will be conpensated by his use of the Sharingan. He is already extremely quick (faster with his handseals than the Sharingan can track), and his Sharingan will slow Jiraya's movements, thus it is concievable to think that perhaps Itachi will be as fast or faster than Jiraiya in HM.


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## killer455 (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Nothing Bee did seemed faster than Jiraiya, so I don't really understand this point.



is that due to saucey dodging the first few Rari-Atto jumps of Bee? (speeds of which surpass the already fully cranked 5 pointer)

that's cuz while the Bijuu jumps were even faster then his base, they lacked the crazy acrobatic agility to them, a combination that was essential to counter-neutralize the saucey's sharingan tracker HUD.

Killerbee's speed showings overall are alot more visually clearer then Jirayia's bankai mode.

also Bankai-release Juggo was keeping up with shikai-release Raikage only for a very brief period of time, he was eventually so overwhelmed with raikage all over the place he couldn't do anything but to stay and block.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Keile said:


> He can trap Jiraya in his genjutsu, and even if Jiraiya breaks out of one or two, he can't resist forever. Ma and Pa require time and patience to use their ultimately genjutsu, something that Itachi may or not allow.



Itachi CAN catch Jiraiya in a genjutsu but that doesn't mean he will. Anyway, Ma and Pa instantly break him out so no worry there.



> He can always use his full-powered Susanoo and end it, anyway.



Jiraiya can always use Yomi Numa and end it anyway.


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## Federer (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Again, that doesn't make his stats "better". Even if he specializes in more areas, that doesn't mean his big weaknesses wouldn't show. His lack of power means his high taijutsu stat isn't going to mean much even if he can land a hit on Jiraiya and it also means that Jiraiya landing hits are going to be far more effective.
> 
> The Stamina factor is common sense.
> 
> Anyway, their stats are equal. You can't just claim a category is less useful etc...



I'm merely pointing out that Itachi has reached the maximum in some area's, Jiraiya is more well rounded, while Itachi exceeds in some categories, the speed departement, for example.




> I don't think there is much argument here. Its not that he will be "too fast", its just the argument that he is "faster" than Itachi. Not by so much that he could completely run through him or anything mind you.



And like I said before, nothing points out that he's faster than Itachi. Taka Sasuke dodged rari atto B, who's most certainly faster than SM Jiraiya. Itachi kept up with Hebi Sasuke, when he suffered from a terminal disease. And he should have been even faster, commented by Zetsu. 



> This is all your opinion and is more or less irrelevant because there is simply no way to prove it. Well, he did surprise Deidara, that is fact, I meant the other stuff.
> 
> And again, this is where we see the importance of stats. Itachi was actually able to grab and manhandle Sasuke, he wont be able to accomplish that vs Jiraiya. There is too much of a strength gap.
> 
> So you are more or less comparing the incomparable.


 
If fists don't work, than a shuriken and kunai at close range will do the job. But I stand by my previous statement, Hebi Sasuke has much better speed feats than SM Jiraiya. 



> Actually you are wrong. Every time Jiraiya had a 1 on 1 he proved far too fast for Pain. Only when Pain had the advantage of shared vision to see him coming from all angles was he able to react.
> 
> _secret meeting place of the Narakano temple_
> 
> ...



Still, the speed gap between the Pain bodies and SM Jiraiya wasn't that big, hence why the Pain bodies still could block, dodge SM Jiraiya. Kakashi and Naruto were also capable of holding their own against Pain bodies, and neither of the two are faster than Itachi. 




> Your basing his knowledge 4 years in the past BEFORE he saw and sealed Amaterasu. If you consider that he was someone who spied on Akutsuki, saw the jutsu's effects, sealed them (most likely to find out what they were) and how many characters who have never seen Amaterasu know about it now, its kind of crazy to think Jiraiya doesn't know more about it.
> 
> Admittedly it is still speculation on my part, but with good reason.



Like you said, it's speculation. And I can't counter speculation. 



> Honestly in SM he may be able to tank the damage. He has "stronger" chakra which could also make a difference in hard it is for Itachi to control a chakra he doesn't know about and it helps him recover. That is just guessing obviously, so don't take it as me saying he could definitely do it.



Even with "stronger" chakra, Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu that punishes the victim, give the victim a trauma and soon the victim are in a coma like state [Sasuke and Kakashi are the examples]. B survived thanks to his Bijuu and Sasuke, who hasn't mastered Tsukiyomi to the level of Itachi. Since Itachi control space/time/mass in his Tsukiyomi world, he can punish Jiraiya to any level he wants.



> I think because they are fused and need to provide him with balance they pay attention for stuff like this. I mean its not a sure thing, but as good a relationship Jiraiya has with all his summons, its hard to say they wouldn't notice something was wrong.
> 
> Anyway, if he does take a Tsukiyami, its hard to say how it would work against SM. Its up in the air IMO.



Well, the databook explicitly says that Fukasaku and Shima's job is give Jiraiya nature energy, they don't share the same chakra "network", hence that's the reason that only Jiraiya felt that Pain was messing up with his chakra. If Jiraiya eats a Tsukiyomi, he either goes ko, or he turns into stone, if Fukasaku and Shima don't notice that their precious Jiraiya-kun is about to collapse. 



> Well, it isn't normal chakra.



I was referring to the genjutsu breaking method. Outsiders that give him a chakra boost and disrupt his chakra system in order to break the genjutsu. In this case, Tsukiyomi already happened and disrupting Jiraiya's chakra will do nothing.



> 1 thing they could do is reverse summon him somewhere. Its hard to say how well it would work, but if they got him to Konoha there are probably people who could use a fire seal or something etc...
> 
> Again, definitely an awkward scenario to foresee. Too many what ifs.



If they do a reverse summon, will he be free from Amaterasu, or will he transfer with Amaterasu. If it's the latter, than it's useless, before someone uses a jutsu to put out Amaterasu, Jiraiya could either be dead or heavily damaged. And since we are in de battledome and their are strict rules, no outsider is allowed him to help in this case. 



> Increasing his chakra to Bijuu levels doesn't really mean anything. Jiraiya has enormous amounts of chakra and in SM they are "stronger" chakra's as well, which makes a difference. If anything he has better chakra than Raikage.
> 
> So yeah, if Raikage did it with Shunshin there is a good chance Jiraiya can too.



Pure speculation. Only the Raikage has been said to be on par with the Yellow Flash. It wasn't a "simple" shunshin, he was FASTER than the Sharingan, something that Jiraiya hasn't done in this manga. The Raikage did, so it's canon. 



> Summoning is his most common and often used jutsu. You can't say it is OOC. It was the first thing he used vs Itachi and Kisame and the 2nd thing with Frog Stomach, it was the first thing he used when we first met him and he took out Ebisu, it was the first thing he used in his return to Konoha to take out the attacking snakes, it was the first or 2nd thing he attempted vs Oro (but his chakra was messed up) and it was one of his first jutsu vs Pain.
> 
> That isn't even counting the house he trapped the Rain nin with, or the travel frog he used to infiltrate the village and such.



It's true that Jiraiya is a ninja who uses summonings in his battles, however, we have seen 1 real fight him. And in that fight, he summoned a frog when the opponent attacked him with a frog. He summoned Gamaken (if I'm not mistaken) to buy time for him and go into SM. But in this scenario, Jiraiya is already in SM and he's fighting Itachi, who doesn't have a summoning. 



> Correction. We have seen a Sharingan catch his teammate summon and force him to do things. Not to say a genjutsu wouldn't work on an enemy, but they are far more prepared to defend themselves and such.



Referring to Manda? He was not willingly to do it, hence why Sasuke forced his genjutsu on him, and because there was no time for a chit chat. 



> It paralyzes the nerves and mind of the use, meaning they most likely can't use their chakra. Questionable of course.
> 
> Anyway, there is a change Itachi can overcome it with time, but he really wont have time.



He won't have time, says who? Sasuke broke a genjutsu from Shii and saved himself and Juugo, before the Raikage (who's much faster than Jiraiya) hit him. 




> I doubt he would try anything that requires close range vs something that size. He may even call out summons of his won first.
> 
> Anyway, you are correct he may not jump to Yomi Numa, but you are incorrect in saying the other jutsu are faster. Of course, if he doesn't use summons Yomi Numa very well may be the first jutsu he uses, as that is what he used vs Oro's summons.



Senpō: Kebari Senbon is Jiraiya's fastest jutsu, according to himself. Yes, he might summon, but that would be a poor death for that frog, we all know what happened to all those heads of Orochimaru in his Yamata form.



> Not sure what them being able to walk freely means. They can't just walk over the swamp as they would you know....be trapped in it.



Well, the jutsu doesn't happen immediately, in that only second, Itachi might jump to the left and evade Yomi Numa. 



> Again, if they are in it they can't just cut around it to get out.



What if Itachi points his Mirror to the swamp or uses Susano'os arms and go to safety?

Since both of them are in character, Itachi uses Tsukiyomi at the first moment Jiraiya looking at his eyes and he will go down or turn into stone.


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## killer455 (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Jiraiya can always use Yomi Numa and end it anyway.



the effectiveness of this special finish earth powah execution by J-man (used only once in the oro fight and unsuccessfuly due to chakra poisoning by tsuande) is thrown around alot.

what was jirayia's logical excuse (or yours) not using it in the pein fight?

cuz i'm sure he would have won with this one otherwise.


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## Federer (Oct 15, 2009)

killer455 said:


> the effectiveness of this special finish earth powah execution of J-man (used only once in the oro fight and unsuccessfuly due to chakra poisoning by tsuande) is thrown around alot.
> 
> what was jirayia's excuse not using it in the pein fight?



He used it against Pain and trapped the three bodies in order to utilize Fukasaku's and Shima's frog song genjutsu.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> I'm merely pointing out that Itachi has reached the maximum in some area's, Jiraiya is more well rounded, while Itachi exceeds in some categories, the speed departement, for example.



Jiraiya exceeds in categories as well. Still don't see your point. In fact, in SM he probably exceeds Itachi in every category but genjutsu.



> And like I said before, nothing points out that he's faster than Itachi. Taka Sasuke dodged rari atto B, who's most certainly faster than SM Jiraiya.



Where do you get that Bee was faster than Jiraiya? There is no certainty about it at all.



> Itachi kept up with Hebi Sasuke, when he suffered from a terminal disease. And he should have been even faster, commented by Zetsu.



Hebi Sasuke is slower than SM Jiraiya, so this point is irrelevant to me.



> But I stand by my previous statement, Hebi Sasuke has much better speed feats than SM Jiraiya.



Again, you would need proof of this. 

I saw no feats that seemed better.



> Still, the speed gap between the Pain bodies and SM Jiraiya wasn't that big, hence why the Pain bodies still could block, dodge SM Jiraiya.



You are accounting for shared vision, which Itachi doesn't have. 1 on 1 Pain was helpless and had no chance to defend at all, as we saw on multiple occasions.



> Kakashi and Naruto were also capable of holding their own against Pain bodies, and neither of the two are faster than Itachi.



They held their own, but they didn't completely overwhelm him like Jiraiya.



> Even with "stronger" chakra, Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu that punishes the victim, give the victim a trauma and soon it the victim are in a coma like state [Sasuke and Kakashi are the examples].



So you are basing what would happened to Jiraiya off of a 10 year old and a Kakashi who was in the hospital once a week? 



> B survived thanks to his Bijuu and Sasuke, who hasn't mastered Tsukiyomi to the level of Itachi. Since Itachi control space/time/mass in his Tsukiyomi world, he can punish Jiraiya to any level he wants.



Again, we have seen Jiraiya take multiple stab wounds while already missing an arm and bleeding to death. That is more or less what Itachi puts you through in Tsukiyami. Certainly Jiraiya would take damage, but he wouldn't die.



> Well, the databook explicitly says that Fukasaku and Shima's job is give Jiraiya nature energy, they don't share the same chakra "network", hence that's the reason that only Jiraiya felt that Pain was messing up with his chakra. If Jiraiya eats a Tsukiyomi, he either goes ko, or he turns into stone, if Fukasaku and Shima don't notice that their precious Jiraiya-kun is about to collapse.



And as they can feel nature energy, they would know to stop if he wasn't converting any of it.



> If it's the latter, than it's useless, before someone uses a jutsu to put out Amaterasu, Jiraiya could either be dead or heavily damaged. And since we are in de battledome and their are strict rules, any outsider isn't allowed him to help in this case.



There are no rules, its part of a speculated battle. If he was hit with Amaterasu and had nothing he could do they would probably summon him to Tsunade or something.

You would still say Itachi won the battle.



> Pure speculation. Only the Raikage has been said to be on par with the Yellow Flash.



So what. Do you even know how fast his regular speed was? Maybe it was slower than Jiraiya.



> It wasn't a "simple" shunshin, he was FASTER than the Sharingan, something that Jiraiya hasn't done in this manga. The Raikage did, so it's canon.



Actually it was just a simple shunshin. There was nothing special stated about his shunshin at all. He just timed it right. 

Jiraiya has basically all of the same things going for him + maybe even an added advantage because of stronger chakra.



> Referring to Manda? He was not willingly to do it, hence why Sasuke forced his genjutsu on him, and because there was no time for a chit chat.



Like I said, he caught a teammate off guard. Its not the same as actually using it on an opponent. If you were a master at genjutsu but I catch you while you asleep I win.....but what I did wasn't impressive. 



> He won't have time, says who? Sasuke broke a genjutsu from Shii and saved himself and Juugo, before the Raikage (who's much faster than Jiraiya) hit him.



Sasuke saw through the genjutsu from the beginning and was more or less never in it. What we saw was Juugo's image of the battle which wasn't the same as Sasuke's.

And again, you will need to prove Raikage is much faster than Jiraiya. Until you can do that you should stop saying it. It makes you appear to be a weak debater, which I don't think is the case.



> Senpō: Kebari Senbon is Jiraiya's fastest jutsu, according to himself.



I know, but you listed more than that, other jutsu which aren't faster.



> Yes, he might summon, but that would be a poor death for that frog, we all know what happened to all those heads of Orochimaru in his Yamata form.



Not necessarily. The snakes charged right at Susanoo, that is not how Jiraiya tends to fight with his summons. I mean, the frogs aren't going to beat Susanoo, but they wont die as easily IMO.



> Well, the jutsu doesn't happen immediately, in that only second, Itachi might jump to the left and evade Yomi Numa.



Sure he MIGHT. A lot of things MIGHT happen.



> What if Itachi points his Mirror to the swamp or uses Susano'os arms and go to safety?



If he is in the swamp how would the mirror touch the part of the swamp he is stuck in?


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

killer455 said:


> the effectiveness of this special finish earth powah execution by J-man (used only once in the oro fight and unsuccessfuly due to chakra poisoning by tsuande) is thrown around alot.



It was successful vs Oro's summon, you must have missed that part. The snake was trapped, the swamp just wasn't as big as Jiraiya wanted.



> what was jirayia's logical excuse (or yours) not using it in the pein fight?



He did use it in the Pain fight.


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## killer455 (Oct 15, 2009)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> He used it against Pain and trapped the three bodies in order to utilize Fukasaku's and Shima's frog song genjutsu.





Cyphon said:


> he did used it in the pain fight



yeah but they didn't sink to their deaths as the fans say? amirite

why fire a genjutsu blaster (the frog song) that takes like forever in an actual chaotic fight to charge-up just to kill or further immobilize an already *Immobilized* targets, when he could jut SPEED-BLITZ WTF them with his large ceremonial swords instead? (as the fans suggest about his super-impressive speediness?)


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## Federer (Oct 15, 2009)

@ Cyphon, 

you are not a great debater yourself. 

*I* have to proof that the Raikage is faster than SM Jiraiya? What proof do you have that SM Jiraiya is faster than Hebi Sasuke, Itachi, Rari atto B or the Raikage?

Only Itachi [seal formation] and the Raikage [reflexes, movement] have the feats that put them above sharingan prediction. Jiraiya doesn't have it. 



> So you are basing what would happened to Jiraiya off of a 10 year old and a Kakashi who was in the hospital once a week?



Uhh.....yeah. Because those were the only occasions when Itachi used his Tsukiyomi on-panel, minus the destruction of the Uchiha clan. And I can also throw in the fact that Kisame has seen Tsukyomi before, and none of the opponents have survived against it, and hence why he was suprised that Kakashi was still alive. 

And Kakashi has the Sharingan which gave him little resistance against the jutsu. Same can be said against SM, a little resistance. 



> Again, we have seen Jiraiya take multiple stab wounds while already missing an arm and bleeding to death. That is more or less what Itachi puts you through in Tsukiyami. Certainly Jiraiya would take damage, but he wouldn't die.



You can't compare mental damage to real damage. In the world of Tsukiyomi, Itachi can kill you literally 10.000 of times, for three days. THAT kind of damage is way above the damage Jiraiya received in his fight against Pain. Since he can only die once and isn't being tortured for several days.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 15, 2009)

killer455 said:


> yeah but they didn't sink to their deaths as the fans say? amirite
> 
> why fire a genjutsu blaster (the frog song) that takes like forever in an actual chaotic fight to charge-up just to kill or further immobilize an already *Immobilized* targets, when he could jut SPEED-BLITZ WTF them with his large ceremonial swords instead? (as the fans suggest about his super-impressive speediness?)



Because the stage had to be set for Jiraiya's "you dissapointed me" speech and for the ambush that cost him an arm(and by extension his death).


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> you are not a great debater yourself.



Most would say amazing, so I agree with you.



> *I* have to proof that the Raikage is faster than SM Jiraiya? What proof do you have that SM Jiraiya is faster than Hebi Sasuke, Itachi, Rari atto B or the Raikage?



There isn't any, which is the point. You can't go into a debate stating things as facts that you can't prove or even back up. That is why I said what I said. "LOLRAIKAGE SOFAST ANDSTUFF". Okay, so prove he is fast than SM Jiraiya. I'll wait.



> Only Itachi [seal formation] and the Raikage [reflexes, movement] have the feats that put them above sharingan prediction. Jiraiya doesn't have it.



That makes sense.....since you know.....Jiraiya has fought a Sharingan user in SM. 

Again, if you are going to claim it as fact you need some kind of proof. Raikage is fast I agree, but so is Jiraiya.



> Uhh.....yeah. Because those were the only occasions when Itachi used his Tsukiyomi on-panel, minus the destruction of the Uchiha clan. And I can also throw in the fact that Kisame has seen Tsukyomi before, and none of the opponents have survived against it, and hence why he was suprised that Kakashi was still alive.



I have no problem with you using this feat, but it is irrelevant to this battle being that Jiraiya is better and has shown more durability/fortitude than both people you mention.



> You can't compare mental damage to real damage. In the world of Tsukiyomi, Itachi can kill you literally 10.000 of times, for three days. THAT kind of damage is way above the damage Jiraiya received in his fight against Pain. Since he can only die once and isn't being tortured for several days.



You actually can compare them, since the reason your mind takes damage is because you "feel" real physical pain. If Jiraiya can withstand that pain mentally, then he will be alright.


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## killer455 (Oct 15, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> Because the stage had to be set for Jiraiya's "you dissapointed me" speech and for the ambush that cost him an arm(and by extension his death).



PIS in super-villain's favor?

wow, that's rare usually it's the other way around in naruto/bleach or any other of my favourite marvel comics

(i'm russian by the way)


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## Federer (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> There isn't any, which is the point. You can't go into a debate stating things as facts that you can't prove or even back up. That is why I said what I said. "LOLRAIKAGE SOFAST ANDSTUFF". Okay, so prove he is fast than SM Jiraiya. I'll wait.



He is faster than Rari atto B, faster than the Sharingan can predict, reflexes comparable to Minato. 

Pain Rikudo was able to follow SM Jiraiya's moves, while they don't have prediction. Meaning, he was slower than the Raikage. Prediction > shared vision.

Why do you ask? Simple, I'll explain. A shared vision is meant for situations like if your opponent is attacking you from behind. Prediction, however, in Sharingan's case, you see your opponents next move, before it happens. 

Because of that prediction, the gap between speeds is closed to some degree. 

If Jiraiya is trying to attack an opponent from behind, the Pain body will learn from the other, that Jiraiya is behind him, it happens AFTER his opponent is behind. In the situation of the Sharingan, the user can follow the opponent, read it's movements and anticipate before the thing actually happens, he has more time, than Pain. 




> That makes sense.....since you know.....Jiraiya has fought a Sharingan user in SM.
> 
> Again, if you are going to claim it as fact you need some kind of proof. Raikage is fast I agree, but so is Jiraiya.



So is Guy, Rock Lee etc. 

I pointed my proof above, SM Jiraiya is fast, but not faster than Pain, who doesn't have prediction. 



> I have no problem with you using this feat, but it is irrelevant to this battle being that Jiraiya is better and has shown more durability/fortitude than both people you mention.



But it also doesn't guarantee that Jiraiya can withstand it. So much punishment, for three day and receive it in a split second into the real world. 



> You actually can compare them, since the reason your mind takes damage is because you "feel" real physical pain. If Jiraiya can withstand that pain mentally, then he will be alright.



I don't think that Jiraiya*s* can withstand litteraly thousands of blades being stuck in  his body for three days long and then be fine after the jutsu has taken place. Especially if it's stated in the manga, that only someone with an Uchiha blood can withstand it. 

Or in Sasuke's incomplete version, rari atto B, thanks to his Bijuu.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> He is faster than Rari atto B, faster than the Sharingan can predict, reflexes comparable to Minato.



1. It was never stated he was faster than Bee. It only said he was able to dodge his attack. Manga shows us you don't have to be faster than your opponent to be able to dodge.

2. We don't know Minato's reflex ability or speed. It could be more or less than Jiraiya.

So again, this point proves nothing.



> Pain Rikudo was able to follow SM Jiraiya's moves, while they don't have prediction.



He wasn't able to follow them, he merely had his blind spots covered. He showed on 2 occasions he had 0% chance of keeping up with Jiraiya. The whole fight Jiraiya kept getting behind Pain before Pain could react, but there was another Pain somewhere else who witnessed this from the outside.

Let me give an example that lends itself perfectly to Raikage vs Sasuke.

Link removed
Tajuu Kage Bunshin

These 2 panels look pretty similar no?

You know the difference? Shared vision for Pain, none for Sasuke.



> Meaning, he was slower than the Raikage. Prediction > shared vision.



Shared vision > prediction. See above. Still no proof Raikage is all that much faster, if at all.



> Because of that prediction, the gap between speeds is closed to some degree.



With shared vision the gap is closed even more, as we saw multiple times in the Pain fight.



> I pointed my proof above, SM Jiraiya is fast, but not faster than Pain, who doesn't have prediction.



Jiraiya is faster than Pain. Didn't you even read the fight?



> Especially if it's stated in the manga, that only someone with an Uchiha blood can withstand it.



It was also stated by Minato that there wasn't a finer shinobi than Jiraiya


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 15, 2009)

killer455 said:


> yeah but they didn't sink to their deaths as the fans say? amirite




He used the swamp on the roof, made a celing into a swamp,

Just listen to that sentence a *swamp in a ceiling*.


If kishimoto had never had show that move could be used like that, no Jiraiya-fan would ever state it could be used like that. Blame Kishi for making such a retardedly broken move. That requires only one hand seal and is used by a guy with Bijuu level chakra.

It was ging *against gravity as the target was upside down.* Against an opponent who blocked HM Jiraiya's kick.

While Jiraiya was exicuting another Katon jutsu.

Meaning he used two jutsu simultaniously. No other people other than Pain could have countered a combo like that.



> why fire a genjutsu blaster (the frog song) that takes like forever in an actual chaotic fight to charge-up just to kill or further immobilize an already *Immobilized* targets, when he could jut SPEED-BLITZ WTF them with his large ceremonial swords instead? (as the fans suggest about his super-impressive speediness?)





This was to make the fight more awesome, Jiraiya could have killed them in the Toad Stomach, in that corridor and left them there to be digested, but NO!!!!



 PIS my friend PIS.


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## killer455 (Oct 15, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> He used the swamp on the roof, made a celing into a swamp,
> 
> Just listen to that sentence a *swamp in a ceiling*.
> 
> ...



wow it's so fun to communicate with j-man's fans when i stopped being a militant uchih-tard.

I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!!pek


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2009)

> He is faster than Rari atto B


Prove he is Greatly Faster then Rari-Atto Bee. In Base Bee has better Feats then Raikage. IF you use the Feat of Sasuke being able to Follow his movements take note that Sasuke says this is only because Bee was making the choice to move in a linear fashion. 



> reflexes comparable to Minato.


And What Exactly is Minato Level. Please Define it for me as Faster then these Shinobi with Proof if you are going to use it in a Debate. 



> Pain Rikudo was able to follow SM Jiraiya's moves, while they don't have prediction. Meaning, he was slower than the Raikage.


When did this happen i don't remember HM Jiraiya ever being kept up with by a body who didn't have access to shared vision. 



> Prediction > shared vision.


According to Kishimoto in perception the byakugan is Superior to Sharigan and Rannigan is superior to Byakugan because of Shared Vision. So the Author implies Shared Vision is Vastly superior to sharigan prediction. 



> A shared vision is meant for situations like if your opponent is attacking you from behind. Prediction, however, in Sharingan's case, you see your opponents next move, before it happens.


Sure they do different things, but that Doesn't make Sharigan's Perception ability better and the Author agrees



> Because of that prediction, the gap between speeds is closed to some degree.


Same for Shared vision. 



> If Jiraiya is trying to attack an opponent from behind, the Pain body will learn from the other, that Jiraiya is behind him, it happens AFTER his opponent is behind. In the situation of the Sharingan, the user can follow the opponent, read it's movements and anticipate before the thing actually happens, he has more time, than Pain.


Not True the Way most Fast Characters Blitz the Enemy is using their speed to move into the enemies blind spots outside of their field of vision so Sharigan would do shit unless its a straight forward movement. While Pain's shared vision can see the attack from outside of the characters field of vision saving the person from the attack. Shared vision is vastly superior to Sharigan Prediction as the Author indicates.


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## killer455 (Oct 15, 2009)

Turrin said:


> Prove he is Greatly Faster then Rari-Atto Bee. In Base Bee has better Feats then Raikage. IF you use the Feat of Sasuke being able to Follow his movements take note that Sasuke says this is only because Bee was making the choice to move in a linear fashion.
> 
> 
> And What Exactly is Minato Level. Please Define it for me as Faster then these Shinobi with Proof if you are going to use it in a Debate.
> ...



TURRIN HAS SPOKEN


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## Vergil642 (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> 1. It was never stated he was faster than Bee. It only said he was able to dodge his attack. Manga shows us you don't have to be faster than your opponent to be able to dodge.
> 
> 2. We don't know Minato's reflex ability or speed. It could be more or less than Jiraiya.
> 
> So again, this point proves nothing.



1. Sasuke said that he could follow Bee's movements. Raikage's full speed was enough for him to only be able to just about react to his opponent. Raikage therefore moved faster than Bee.

2. Bullshit good sir. You're hiding behind the argument of lack of knowledge, which in itself is fallacious. We've seen Jiraiya's speed feats in HM. They consist of kicking someone in the face pretty fast and moving from a wall to the ground faster than a sandel does under the effects of gravity. Raikage is apparently like Minato in speed and he was able to move so fast he escaped an extremely fast Sharingan user's vision, something only Itachi's hands have ever done before. Jiraiya hasn't got the feats.



> He wasn't able to follow them, he merely had his blind spots covered. He showed on 2 occasions he had 0% chance of keeping up with Jiraiya. The whole fight Jiraiya kept getting behind Pain before Pain could react, but there was another Pain somewhere else who witnessed this from the outside.
> 
> Let me give an example that lends itself perfectly to Raikage vs Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Wanna know another difference? Two even? Pain's vision was obscured by smoke and Raikage matched that feet with pure speed against someone with better reflexes. Jiraiya's feat here is stealthy as much as it is quick, an example of how he can use smokescreens to his advantage.



> Shared vision > prediction. See above. Still no proof Raikage is all that much faster, if at all.



Maybe in your crazy world. With prediction you can see things before they happen. In other words, you get a few vital extra seconds to react to an opponent's attack. We've seen the difference this makes when Sasuke reversed the "getting the shit kicked out of him" situation against KNO Naruto at VotE the moment his Sharingan went three tomoe. And that was on top of an already present enhanced reaction time the Sharingan gave him. 

We also arguably see it when Kakashi faces Zabuza in a straightup fight using his Sharingan. Previously Kakashi either hadn't been using it or had his vision obscured by a jutsu and was being slightly beaten by Zabuza in Taijutsu. Afterward he was bitchslapping him around like nobody's business. Shared vision means you see an attack from more than one angle and means you can judge how to dodge or counter better than normal eyes. Sharingan prediction is far more effective at defending yourself than Pain's shared vision.



> With shared vision the gap is closed even more, as we saw multiple times in the Pain fight.



No it isn't. We saw Pain keeping up with Jiraiya fine and being able to counter despite being attacked from behind as each body could see said attacks thanks to their friends.

Prediction would mean you see the opponent moving behind you and begin countering the attack before it's even been made.



> Jiraiya is faster than Pain. Didn't you even read the fight?



I agree here.



> It was also stated by Minato that there wasn't a finer shinobi than Jiraiya



Worthless hyperbole is worthless in both cases.

Well...except the only defence shown against a full Tsukuyomi has involved a Sharingan and taking Tsukuyomi easy...and we've seen many Shinobi finer and at the same level as Jiraiya. Minato being one example.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> 1. Sasuke said that he could follow Bee's movements. Raikage's full speed was enough for him to only be able to just about react to his opponent. Raikage therefore moved faster than Bee.



I was talking about base Raikage. Either way, there is nothing that says HM Jiraiya isn't faster than Bee as well, so still a useless comparison.



> 2. Bullshit good sir. You're hiding behind the argument of lack of knowledge, which in itself is fallacious.



So we are allowed to make stuff up do to lack of knowledge?

Well in that case Jiraiya probably has Doton: Domu rendering all physical attacks useless. He just never used it because his opponents couldn't touch him 

I can add other stuff as well since we don't use knowledge anymore.



> Raikage is apparently like Minato in speed and he was able to move so fast he escaped an extremely fast Sharingan user's vision, something only Itachi's hands have ever done before. Jiraiya hasn't got the feats.



Again, I stress that this proves nothing, for more than 1 reason.

We don't know Minato's speed feats....hell, we don't even know hos C would have ever seen them to begin with.

Another thing is we don't know Raikage's speed is the minimum dodging point, since all he did to dodge was use Shunshin.



> Wanna know another difference? Two even? Pain's vision was obscured by smoke and Raikage matched that feet with pure speed against someone with better reflexes. Jiraiya's feat here is stealthy as much as it is quick, an example of how he can use smokescreens to his advantage.



Really doesn't matter, the scenario is the same. Jiraiya was behind his opponent without them knowing he was there and due to shared vision from the outside he was stopped.

In Sasuke's case if there was another him standing to the back side, he would have saw Raikage appear and been able to defend with more than just a guesswork Amaterasu shroud. So the point still stands no matter how you twist it.



> Maybe in your crazy world. With prediction you can see things before they happen. In other words, you get a few vital extra seconds to react to an opponent's attack.



This is again, assuming you can see the person and they aren't in your blind spot. If Sasuke had shared vision he would have fared far better vs Raikage than he did with Sharingan. 



> We've seen the difference this makes when Sasuke reversed the "getting the shit kicked out of him" situation against KNO Naruto at VotE the moment his Sharingan went three tomoe. And that was on top of an already present enhanced reaction time the Sharingan gave him.



Sure, but shared vision would have more or less accomplished the same thing.



> Sharingan prediction is far more effective at defending yourself than Pain's shared vision.



I disagree and scans provided prove my point.



> No it isn't. We saw Pain keeping up with Jiraiya fine and being able to counter despite being attacked from behind as each body could see said attacks thanks to their friends.



Pain couldn't keep up at all, even when he was the aggressor. He attacked Jiraiya when Jiraiya was barely even paying attention and was kicked so fast he didn't even lift his hands at all. They were still by his side when he was kicked.

Then later on he already had his hands set for a summon and Jiraiya kicked him so fast he didn't have time. Summoning is one of the fastest jutsu mind you. See Minato's Hiraishin 

So they couldn't directly follow, but they could see him appear in the other bodies blind spots.



> Prediction would mean you see the opponent moving behind you and begin countering the attack before it's even been made.



Assuming you see them at all 



> Worthless hyperbole is worthless in both cases.



Exactly, which was the whole point of my statement. If we went by every statement made nothing would make sense.


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 15, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> They have.But not on chakra infused swamps that can sink huge summons



The same that have only been shown to immobilize instead of outright sink something?



> Sasuke is Sasuke and Jiraiya is Jiraiya.
> Jiraiya was never much of a genjutsu _user_,hence,as he told Naruto,had to become very adept at dispelling it.



The point is that Itachi had no trouble staying one step against someone who was also proficient in using Sharingan genjutsu. And post the manga scan where Jiraiya states he is good at dispelling genjutsu. I recall him telling Naruto that he should learn how to dispel genjutsu, nothing about his own skill in dispelling them.


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Not ones with chakra inside them *that drains the power from your body *and pulls you in. Unless, you can provide scans.



Since when? I'd like to see the manga scan where it states that. And you need a manga scan for ninja's walking on water? They expel chakra to their feet or any other part of their body which allows them to cling to water and ceilings. Take one good guess what the majority of a swamp is comprised of  



> Except it is much stronger and completely paralyzes the user. Shikamaru was still able to manipulate his shadow jutsu when he was under the genjutsu.



The outcome is the same, controlling your opponents chakra. Itachi was able to use a paralyzing jutsu on Orochimaru with just his normal Sharingan and Orochimaru couldn't move at all.


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## Ra (Oct 15, 2009)

I picked out the most erroneous arguments from yesterday and today.



> Bijuu amounts = lots. How is that incomparable. Can you prove Jiraiya doesn't have on around that much chakra?



The manga didn't even hint that jiraiya chakra is comparable to bijuu.

If the manga didn't state jiraiya had bijuu amounts of chakra then he doesn't have it.



> Again, basically just speculation. *Raikage may or may not be a bit faster, but they are still in the same ballpark.*



The manga has shown that raikage is faster than Jiraiya, but to your overwhelming bias, you do not accept "facts."

Raikage has shown to be so fast he leaves a "after image", something that jiraiya hasn't shown to be close to doing. He even moved faster than the sharingan can follow, something Jiraiya hasn't shown to do.



> Raikage's speed wasn't way above average. Juugo was fast enough to react to his speed. He actually blocked Raikage with seemingly little effort but then Raikage overpowered him.



Actually raikage speed is above average, he moved so fast he left a after image and escaped sharingan sight.

Your constant arguement is juugo reacted to his speed, it may say a lot about juugo reaction rate.



> Why would Jiraiya know how it's fired? He didn't even know it existed until he saw the afterflames. You're telling me that he's managed to figure out how it's fired and how strong Amaterasu is by seeing a little piece of it.-vergil





> You act as if there is no history to the Uchiha in existence. This is a guy who:
> 
> 1. Spied and followed Akutsuki
> 
> ...



Vergil argument: Jiraiya has no knowledge on how amaterasu works, he saw a fire and sealed it. He could not gain knowledge of how amaterasu works with a "still" fire.

Your argument: 

1st point: Jiraiya has studied the uchiha existence and learned of amaterasu in his study. (Speculation)

2nd point: Jiraiya spied and followed akatsuki and you imply he gathered information on how amaterasu works through following akatsuki. (Speculation)

3rd point (Made me lol): Jiraiya was the first to say Madara was alive and implied he should know of amaterasu mechanis through this premise. (The biggest speculation in the history of the battledome)

Fact: Jiraiya has insufficient knowledge of amaterasu.



> I mean, he is not an idiot. If he saw a black fire that burned a fire breathing frog, I am sure he did his research.
> 
> Anyway, I still have to admit it IS in the end just speculation, but I already admitted that.



Not being a idiot does not equate to not being ignorant.



> Again how Does Raikage Dodging Amaterasu mean that his Speed is the Minimum amount you need to dodge it? He Dodge it easily it stands to reason that there would be people with slighter lesser speed that could dodge it with more difficulty, partially, or dodge if for a certain period of time before getting caught.



There is a huge gap between raikage power-up speed and HM Jiraiya speed. *Fact*.



> A Hype Statement by Karin who has never seen Jiriaya before how do you know she wouldn't make the same comment about HM Jiraiya who also has a shit ton of Chakra? Even if Raikage does have more then Jiraiya it just means he can maintain he power up the Raiton Shroud longer then Jiraiya can Maintain HM, which against an enemy like Itachi who has far less Stamina/Chakra then both is irrelevant.



Show me a scan were it states Jiraiya chakra is bijuu level or *at least* hint that Jiraiya chakra is bijuu level. If the manga doesn't state such characteristics then said characteristics doesn't *exist*. Period

My statement: The itachi camp won the moment I stated my second post on this thread about Jiraiya being genjutsu'd and killing himself with his own techniques.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2009)

I see the thread had devolved. Here are the most important points:

_1. Itachi was shown to create and move his shadowclone faster than Sasuke's Sharingan could register, like the Raikage, in the midst of throwing hundreds of shuriken. Jiraiya has no such feat. In terms of feats, Itachi is much, much, much faster than Jiraiya.

2. Itachi is intelligent and easily the most talented Genjutsu user in the manga. He would likely calculate what the frog song was and with superior speed stop the lengthy preparation. If not, he's been shown to reflect Genjutsu quite effortlessly. In either case, saying that someone with so little ability in Genjutsu is going to beat Itachi at his own game isn't the best argument I've ever heard.

3. Itachi has a Sharingan with prediction and is already faster than HM Jiraiya. Jiraiya's Taijutsu and Strength play almost no role in this battle.  

4. The only Ninjutsu that Jiraiya has that can arguably beat Susano is Yomi Numa. Its feats include temporarily trapping a nameless fodder snake and one of the weakest Pein bodies. In contrast, Susano effortlessly destroyed Orochimaru and Madara expected Sasuke to be able to capture all five Kages with it had he perfected its usage like Itachi.

5. Jiraiya has no knowledge of finger Genjutsu. Being in Genjutsu for even a few moments is enough to be taken out. His toads would have to instantly realize he was under a Genjutsu and this is if they're not in a Genjutsu themselves. Sharingan Genjutsu was shown to be effective on multiple people at once and Tsukiyomi was alluded to be able to kill. The best case scenario is that Jiraiya is looking at Itachi's feat and considering that Itachi's speed feats blow Jiraiya's away I doubt he'll do well considering that Sasuke can't see Itachi's bursts of speed. 

6. Jiraiya has shown nothing to match the Raikage in speed and thus stating that he can dodge Amatarasu is baseless. For rational people, the questioning stops here as Itachi's Amatarasu has the power feats that Sasuke's lack. His incinerates on touch, even a moment is enough to lose half your body.  Amatarasu has scared off the perfect host when used by a novice and has only ever truly been avoided by Oral Rebirth Replacement and Raikage speed - neither of which Jiraiya has and Itachi's usage of Amatarasu is inarguably superior as his eyes move faster (as he can likely perceive his own hands.)   

7. In terms of intelligence the opponents are evenly matched, but were there to be an advantage in this category, it would certainly be awarded to Itachi. If anyone is being tricked, it the guy whose eyes don't pick up everything and is up against someone with much, much better speed feats.

8. Itachi is not paralleled to Jiraiya. He's paralleled with Orochimaru. They're teachers. If you're talking landmarks than Naruto's is to become the greatest Hokage, Minato, where as Sasuke wants to surpass his brother. There are actually parallels between Itachi and Minato. So this argument doesn't fly._


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## Ra (Oct 15, 2009)

> He doesn't instantly break out, and itachi has shown the ability to cast jutsu and the opponent go on unaware he's trapped in a genjutsu, and proceeds to kill himself. Also Itachi is known for casting layered genjutsu, so It's easy for jiraiya to break out one genjutsu and assume he's not trapped in another.
> 
> In tsukuyomi case he's not breaking out.



- By: GrandKitaro777


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Since when? I'd like to see the manga scan where it states that.



Its in the data book description



> Earth Release: Underworld* Swamp (土遁・黄泉沼, Doton: Yomi Numa)
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, All ranges
> User: Jiraiya
> 
> ...



Sorry about my word choice though. I guess it doesn't actually drain their power. I mistook the "impossible to recover ones strength".



> And you need a manga scan for ninja's walking on water?



No, I was asking for a scan of someone walking on something like Yomi Numa (ie chakra infused etc...).



GrandKitaro777 said:


> The manga didn't even hint that jiraiya chakra is comparable to bijuu.



It really doesn't matter. The word was enormous. Enormous is enough to accomplish the same thing as "bijuu" levels. Not to mention the added benefit of more and stronger chakra via SM.



> If the manga didn't state jiraiya had bijuu amounts of chakra then he doesn't have it.



So then we know for sure Itachi can't beat Jiraiya since the manga didn't state it 

Nice argument



> The manga has shown that raikage is faster than Jiraiya, but to your overwhelming bias, you do not accept "facts."



How could I be bias if Raikage isn't even in the thread? Or to the fact Raikage is one of my favorite characters?

I am still waiting for someone to prove Raikage is way faster than Jiraiya. 



> Raikage has shown to be so fast he leaves a "after image", something that jiraiya hasn't shown to be close to doing.



Drawing effects to show he dodged it is the more likely scenario or it could be attributed to his lighting shroud leaving a light refraction behind.



> He even moved faster than the sharingan can follow, something Jiraiya hasn't shown to do.



Jiraiya hasn't faced the Sharingan in SM so you don't know how the Sharingan would perceive it. Your rebuttal is pointless.



> Your constant arguement is juugo reacted to his speed, it may say a lot about juugo reaction rate.



Sure, Juugo has good reaction, but if Raikage is too fast for Sasuke, you really think Juugo is faring well? It could just be that base Raikage isn't all that fast. Probably the same as base Bee or so.



> 1st point: Jiraiya has studied the uchiha existence and learned of amaterasu in his study. (Speculation)



Admitted was speculation. So thanks for repeating me....now hop off my dick for a minute, k pumpkin? 



> 2nd point: Jiraiya spied and followed akatsuki and you imply he gathered information on how amaterasu works through following akatsuki. (Speculation)



Again, I said "could have". I noted it was speculation, but thanks for saying it again for me 



> 3rd point (Made me lol): Jiraiya was the first to say Madara was alive. (The biggest speculation in the history of the battledome)



So we didn't see Jiraiya say "I think the Kyuubi was an intentional summon of Madara"?

Pretty sure we did. Again though, I just said that means he knows/thinks a lot more than you give credit for. 



> Fact: Jiraiya has insufficient knowledge of amaterasu.



Actually that is speculation. You don't know how much knowledge he has.



> There is a huge gap between raikage power-up speed and HM Jiraiya speed. *Fact*.



Again, if you claim fact please provide some kind of evidence to convince me. You just stating your opinion (which is one of, if not the least respected in the BD) doesn't convince me at all.



> Show me a scan were it states Jiraiya chakra is bijuu level or *at least* hint that Jiraiya chakra is bijuu level.



Link removed

"you have to have enormous amounts of chakra". 

Sure, it doesn't specifically say bijuu, but Naruto doesn't happened to have the 9 tailed beast within him.

Beyond that though, you are missing the whole point of the argument.

Raikage spiked his chakra levels, most likely to maintain his shroud and keep his reaction up. He then used Shunshin. According to the DB, the amount of chakra used for a Shunshin determines distance and height, not speed. 

Before I move on I will just remind you.....even if Raikage did use extra chakra for a better Shunshin, he certainly didn't use a "bijuu" amount, because then he would basically be out of chakra after 1 move. Moving on....

Shunshin by definition is a ninjutsu. Sage chakra makes you ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu stronger.

So....if Jiraiya has stronger chakra then any regular chakra ninja AND LOTS OF CHAKRA, how would be be much different than Raikage using Shunshin?

Jiraiya has a 5 in ninjutsu + stronger chakra than most if not all other shinobi besides Naruto. I don't see a problem.



Illusory said:


> 1. Itachi was shown to create and move his shadowclone faster than Sasuke's Sharingan could register, like the Raikage, in the midst of throwing hundreds of shuriken. Jiraiya has no such feat. In terms of feats, Itachi is much, much, much faster than Jiraiya.



We are talking actual speed, not hand speed.

Point is irrelevant.



> He would likely calculate what the frog song was and with superior speed stop the lengthy preparation.



I agree that he could probably tell its a genjutsu, Pain even did that. The issue with your post is that you said superior speed, which Itachi doesn't have.



> If not, he's been shown to reflect Genjutsu quite effortlessly.



He reflected 1 sight based genjutsu. Hardly comparable.



> Itachi has a Sharingan with prediction and is already faster than HM Jiraiya. Jiraiya's Taijutsu and Strength play almost no role in this battle.



Actually Jiraiya is most likely faster and taijutsu and strength play a big role. Even if you think Jiraiya wont be effective, Itachi certainly wont be. So it keeps him distanced which gives Jiraiya even more of an advantage.



> Its feats include _temporarily trapping_ a nameless fodder snake and one of the weakest Pein bodies.



There was no "temporary" about it. The snake only got out when Jiraiya release the jutsu. Oh, and he caught both of them effortlessly. 



> Being in Genjutsu for even a few moments is enough to be taken out.



Actually it usually isn't. Kurenai was able to dodge Itachi after coming out of his genjutsu reversal and Juugo was able to block Raikage (who everyone thinks is the fastest character in the manga) while coming out of genjutsu.

Manga doesn't really support your claim, unless it is a paralyzing genjutsu.



> His toads would have to instantly realize he was under a Genjutsu and this is if they're not in a Genjutsu themselves.



You do know Ma and Pa are pretty formidable themselves right?

So Itachi puts Jiraiya in a genjutsu and charges in but then

Link removed



> Sharingan Genjutsu was shown to be effective on multiple people at once



Only Kakashi has shown such a feat.



> Jiraiya has shown nothing to match the Raikage in speed and thus stating that he can dodge Amatarasu is baseless.



I explained it above. Again, if you can provide any kind of evidence I will be happy to consider your point.



> Itachi is not paralleled to Jiraiya. He's paralleled with Orochimaru. They're teachers. If you're talking landmarks than Naruto's is to become the greatest Hokage, Minato, where as Sasuke wants to surpass his brother. There are actually parallels between Itachi and Minato. So this argument doesn't fly.[/i]



While I agree parallels don't really determine who is stronger, more parallels exist between Itachi and Jiraiya than any other 2 characters in the manga. Ignoring them doesn't mean they don't exist. Itachi tards would do well to learn that.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> We are talking actual speed, not hand speed.
> 
> Point is irrelevant.



I was talking actual speed and I even demonstrated why. It's not my problem that you're in denial.



Cyphon said:


> I agree that he could probably tell its a genjutsu, Pain even did that. The issue with your post is that you said superior speed, which Itachi doesn't have.



He has superior speed feats. Thus he has superior speed.



Cyphon said:


> He reflected 1 sight based genjutsu. Hardly comparable.



It's Genjutsu reflection. Sight, sound, etc. It effects the mind, he reflects it. Not that I think this is likely, it's just possible. I'll drop this if you'd like. 



Cyphon said:


> There was no "temporary" about it. The snake only got out when Jiraiya release the jutsu. Oh, and he caught both of them effortlessly.



And Sasuke effortlessly disabled countless ninja. Fodder is fodder and isn't useful for hyping a technique against Susano which has *much* better feats *and* much better hype.



Cyphon said:


> Actually it usually isn't. Kurenai was able to dodge Itachi after coming out of his genjutsu reversal and Juugo was able to block Raikage (who everyone thinks is the fastest character in the manga) while coming out of genjutsu.



'Dodge' Itachi. You're saying Itachi couldn't have hit her if he wanted to? She was in his Genjutsu for a few moments and he 'missed' her then he kicked her and was behind her by the time she hit the water. This is no good.



Cyphon said:


> So Itachi puts Jiraiya in a genjutsu and charges in but then Link removed



Why wouldn't he use Tsukiyomi in the layered Genjutsu like he's been shown to? Or send an Amatarasu at him? 



Cyphon said:


> While I agree parallels don't really determine who is stronger, more parallels exist between Itachi and Jiraiya than any other 2 characters in the manga. Ignoring them doesn't mean they don't exist. Itachi tards would do well to learn that.



What parallels are these? I'll give you a better list of Itachi:Minato parallels my friend.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I was talking actual speed and I even demonstrated why. It's not my problem that you're in denial.



You were talking about seal speed. That is different than actual body speed.

Not sure what the denial part is 



> He has superior speed feats. Thus he has superior speed.



So do you actually have scans or any provided explanation beyond your own opinion. 

I wonder if you realize is meant to be more factual than opinionated. We can't have an educated discussion if you only insist on making your own version of things.

I can only go by what the manga has shown. Can you please explain how I am supposed to follow and correctly debate you when you simply write your own version?



> I'll drop this if you'd like.



Yeah, its really hard to say. There may be a DB thing for it. I will check.



> And Sasuke effortlessly disabled countless ninja. Fodder is fodder and isn't useful for hyping a technique against Susano which has *much* better feats *and* much better hype.



Pain wasn't fodder, so there you. Jiraiya effortlessly trapped him and Pain even has knowledge of Jiraiya's techniques.



> 'Dodge' Itachi. You're saying Itachi couldn't have hit her if he wanted to? She was in his Genjutsu for a few moments and he 'missed' her then he kicked her and was behind her by the time she hit the water.



I don't really get what you are saying. He swung and she dodged. Point really doesn't matter as there is further proof with Juugo. I understand you don't want me to question Itachi's abilities so we can drop him and just use the Juugo example.



> Why wouldn't he use Tsukiyomi in the layered Genjutsu like he's been shown to? Or send an Amatarasu at him?



Because that's not what he has shown to do. When he had Oro in a genjutsu he followed up by charging at him. Him and Sasuke were in a genjutsu battle and neither were technically caught. When he had Kurenai in one he charged at her.

When did he do what you are saying he does?



> What parallels are these? I'll give you a better list of Itachi:Minato parallels my friend.



They have been explained countless times. Just check back through the threads. I may list them again later if you insist.


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## killer455 (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> repeated the test
> [/url]
> .




Cyphon, sleepyfans have a rep for creating massive, long-time misconceptions with their quick and dirty trans.

look for a better transplations like binktopia or mangahelpers and compare notes.


all in all, i wish you victory in this great debate


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## Ra (Oct 15, 2009)

> It really doesn't matter. The word was enormous. Enormous is enough to accomplish the same thing as "bijuu" levels. Not to mention the added benefit of more and stronger chakra via SM.



Enormous doesn't equate to bijuu level, otherwise it would be pointless for kishi to refer raikage power to bijuu level.

Raikage has enormous chakra levels in base, is he a bijuu level in base? 



> So then we know for sure Itachi can't beat Jiraiya since the manga didn't state it



We have facts why itachi can defeat Jiraiya, we have no facts Jiraiya has bijuu level chakra.



> How could I be bias if Raikage isn't even in the thread? Or to the fact Raikage is one of my favorite characters?
> 
> I am still waiting for someone to prove Raikage is way faster than Jiraiya.



I really can't get through this guy. 

It's unbelievable how he deny manga facts, no wonder this thread hasn't ended. 



> Drawing effects to show he dodged it is the more likely scenario or it could be attributed to his lighting shroud leaving a light refraction behind.



It was clearly a after image caused by his speed, the bijuu level chakra pumped into his shunshin caused this high speed.



> Jiraiya hasn't faced the Sharingan in SM so you don't know how the Sharingan would perceive it. Your rebuttal is pointless.



And since this event never happened, you have no proof he could bypass the sharingan with his speed.



> Sure, Juugo has good reaction, but if Raikage is too fast for Sasuke, you really think Juugo is faring well? It could just be that base Raikage isn't all that fast. Probably the same as base Bee or so.



He only proved he was too fast for sasuke when he went power-up mode.



> Admitted was speculation. So thanks for repeating me....now hop off my dick for a minute, k pumpkin?



I'm not on your dick, I'm on my computer chair typing a rebuttal to this user cyphon. "He wants to be a pain in the ass," but people will never allow him to be a pain in the ass. :ho

Also I'm not a pumpkin, I looked at myself and found that I'm not orange and round.



> Actually that is speculation. You don't know how much knowledge he has.



Your pride won't allow you to admit that Jiraiya has shown nothing in the manga that suggest he know how amaterasu works.



> repeated the test
> 
> "you have to have enormous amounts of chakra".
> 
> ...



Above


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

killer455 said:


> Cyphon, sleepyfans have a rep for creating massive, long-time misconceptions with their quick and dirty trans.
> 
> look for a better transplations like binktopia or mangahelpers and compare notes.



Viz says enormous as well.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> Enormous doesn't equate to bijuu level, otherwise it would be pointless for kishi to refer raikage power to bijuu level.



Kishi does a lot of pointless things and yes, enormous can equate to bijuu level. Since if someone said "how much chakra do bijuu have?" one could answer with "enormous amounts" and they would be absolutely correct.

Again, it doesn't really matter whether it is enormous or bijuu level for what we are discussing anyway.



> We have facts why itachi can defeat Jiraiya,



Manga scans please.



> It was clearly a after image caused by his speed, the bijuu level chakra pumped into his shunshin caused this high speed.



False. According to the DB the amount of chakra only matters for distance and height. 

Anyway, you know my thoughts on what the after image could be.



> And since this event never happened, you have no proof he could bypass the sharingan with his speed.



And you have no proof he couldn't. Nor even reasonable reasons as to why. Looks like we should let this one go. I have provided plenty of reason why he should be able to accomplish the same thing as Raikage.



> Your pride won't allow you to admit that Jiraiya has shown nothing in the manga that suggest he know how amaterasu works.



I can assure I don't take pride in winning debates about a children's manga. I already admitted he has shown nothing, I just gave VERY reasonable speculation, which I took the time to note was.....well, speculation.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> You were talking about seal speed. That is different than actual body speed. Not sure what the denial part is



So you're of the opinion that Itachi is the only ninja who can form a clone twenty feet away from where he is standing? You do realize that would be a form of teleportation that is far more dangerous than simply admitting that he can move faster than Sasuke can see.



Cyphon said:


> Pain wasn't fodder, so there you. Jiraiya effortlessly trapped him and Pain even has knowledge of Jiraiya's techniques.



That Pein body was more or less a fodder body. Him being trapped shouldn't make you think Itachi can be trapped, particularly when Itachi will see the doton sign. Not that this factors as trapping won't stop Susano from sealing Jiraiya and it probably won't keep Itachi trapped for long, nor do I think he would fall for the same trick twice. 



Cyphon said:


> Because that's not what he has shown to do. When he had Oro in a genjutsu he followed up by charging at him. Him and Sasuke were in a genjutsu battle and neither were technically caught. When he had Kurenai in one he charged at her.When did he do what you are saying he does?



Against Sasuke. Normal Genjutsu then Tsukiyomi. He also warned Naruto when he was already caught in Genjutsu that he couldn't cast Tsukiyomi on him because of the lack of chakra. Not that this is necessary since you should acknowledge the possibility that Jiraiya would make eye contact anyways like he did in their previous encounter.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2009)

> There is a huge gap between raikage power-up speed and HM Jiraiya speed. Fact.


Prove it



> Show me a scan were it states Jiraiya chakra is bijuu level or at least hint that Jiraiya chakra is bijuu level. If the manga doesn't state such characteristics then said characteristics doesn't exist. Period



-Prove to me what the exact amount of chakra is that is equal to a Bijuu. It really isn't an argument that Raikage has more chakra because Karin compares him to a Bijuu when we have no clue what Karin's opinion would be on Jiriaya.

-It wasn't my point that Jiraiya has Chakra Equal to a Bijuu. My point was that Raikage does not use a Bijuu amount of chakra on the shunshin he used to dodge Ameretsu. Since Jiraiya has a massive amount of chakra i find it hard to believe that he doesn't have enough chakra to use the same amount of chakra on a Shunshin that Raikage did. 



> Itachi was shown to create and move his shadowclone faster than Sasuke's Sharingan could register, like the Raikage, in the midst of throwing hundreds of shuriken.



-Its a Bushin feint there are plenty of character that can make a Bushin too fast for other character to see. 

-Plus we don't even know if that was Genjutsu or not. 

-Plus we don't even know if HM Jiriaya's Level of Speed could not Accomplish a Similar feat as it never went up against the Sharigan

-Plus thats handseal speed which has nothing to do with Movement from Point A-B speed. 



> Itachi is intelligent and easily the most talented Genjutsu user in the manga. He would likely calculate what the frog song was and with superior speed stop the lengthy preparation. If not, he's been shown to reflect Genjutsu quite effortlessly. In either case, saying that someone with so little ability in Genjutsu is going to beat Itachi at his own game isn't the best argument I've ever heard.



-Has anyone even been arguing that Frog Song would defeat an Itachi who had his Sharigan Activated?

-I believe that the Statement on Frog Song Beating itachi is when Itachi has used up his power on Susano'o in is in a weakened state with his Sharigan Deactivated and his movement speed hampered 



> . Itachi has a Sharingan with prediction and is already faster than HM Jiraiya. Jiraiya's Taijutsu and Strength play almost no role in this battle.


Proof that Itachi is faster then HM Jiriaya. HM Jiriaya has better Speed Feats then Itachi. 



> The only Ninjutsu that Jiraiya has that can arguably beat Susano is Yomi Numa. Its feats include temporarily trapping a nameless fodder snake and one of the weakest Pein bodies. In contrast, Susano effortlessly destroyed Orochimaru and Madara expected Sasuke to be able to capture all five Kages with it had he perfected its usage like Itachi.


Clearly Susano'o is a better Jutsu then Yomi Numa, i don't think anyone is arguing that. Its the nature of Yomi Numa that makes it a very good counter to Susano'o despite it being a weaker Ninjutsu over all. 



> Jiraiya has no knowledge of finger Genjutsu. Being in Genjutsu for even a few moments is enough to be taken out.


-Kai can happen in a instant since its a Normal Genjutsu not a Dojutsu Genjutsu

-If a Frog is out to Defend then Jiraiya has more time. And since this is HM Jiriaya he has MA/Pa Toad. 



> Sharingan Genjutsu was shown to be effective on multiple people at once


-Kakashi was able to do this, no proof Itachi can

-Being able to be cast on Two Fodder is not even close being able to cast it on three experienced shinobi like Ma, Pa, and Jiriaya. 



> and Tsukiyomi was alluded to be able to kill.


Yes Tskuyomi can kill, but its completely depend on breaking the will and mental fortitude of the target. Considering Jiriaya willed himself back to life, all i can say is, good luck with that Itachi. 



> Jiraiya has shown nothing to match the Raikage in speed and thus stating that he can dodge Amatarasu is baseless.


Actually HM Jiriaya has better Speed Feats then Raikage. So i could actually argue the opposite, but since i'm a sensible guy all i will say is that i doubt Raikage is that much faster then HM Jiriaya. 



> For rational people, the questioning stops here as Itachi's Amatarasu has the power feats that Sasuke's lack


There is no difference in power between Itachi's and Sasuke's Ameretsu. If there were it would surely favor Sasuke who has greater Skill with the Technique Developing Enton and having Greater Stamina/Chakra then Itachi to Increase the Offensive Might of the Technique. 



> Replacement and Raikage speed - neither of which Jiraiya has and Itachi's usage of Amatarasu is inarguably superior as his eyes move faster (as he can likely perceive his own hands.)


Prove that you need Raikage's Speed as a Minimum to Dodge Ameretsu. Prove Raikage Drastically Outclasses HM Jiraiya in speed despite HM Jiriaya having better feats. 



> n terms of intelligence the opponents are evenly matched, but were there to be an advantage in this category, it would certainly be awarded to Itachi. If anyone is being tricked, it the guy whose eyes don't pick up everything and is up against someone with much, much better speed feats.


Yes Surely itachi has the Advantage over 3 Vastly More experienced people. In Base Mode i may agree with you, but in HM i disagree. 



> Itachi is not paralleled to Jiraiya. He's paralleled with Orochimaru. They're teachers. If you're talking landmarks than Naruto's is to become the greatest Hokage, Minato, where as Sasuke wants to surpass his brother. There are actually parallels between Itachi and Minato. So this argument doesn't fly.


I Disagree there is at least a dozen parallels that i could make between Jiriaya and Itachi


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## omgbbq (Oct 15, 2009)

itachi > jiraiya

this has been done many times


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## killer455 (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Viz says enormous as well.



ahhh...okay

anyway for those who are curious these are the people whom the databooks confirmed to have maximum cranked-up chakra energy reservoirs and/or just plain iron-balls of stamina for punishement, here:

(please be warned these are only roughly comparable in certain ways, not exact same for every fighter)

Hidan: 5 (due to his fixed "highlander" body, sado-masochism and chakraless voodoo sorcery)

Kisame: 5 (the samehada monstrosity says Hi) 

Jirayia: 5 (one of the most tallest dudes with herculean heroic reserves)

Gai: 5 (slap-stick psychotic workaholic with heroic stamina powah)

Gaara and Naruto: 5 (Bijuu-chosen newborns must have extreme spartan stamina supplies)

Sasori: (after permanently Cyborizing his body, freeing himself from all the regular human organism requirements like feeling pain and stuff like that, his chakra supplies shotted up in the sky, and probably he was just born this way to begin with)

close second contenders:

Kakuzu: 4.5 (as long as he vampirizes hearts and other organs, nothing will corrode his stamina supplies, nothing but aging)

Kimmimaro: 4.5 (dude was essentialy fighting and soaking damage non-stop with the complete mastery of his bone mutant powerz, only his terminal ilness stopped him)


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Illusory said:


> So you're of the opinion that Itachi is the only ninja who can form a clone twenty feet away from where he is standing? You do realize that would be a form of teleportation that is far more dangerous than simply admitting that he can move faster than Sasuke can see.



Huh? Naruto has formed tons of clones far more than 20 feet away.



> That Pein body was more or less a fodder body. Him being trapped shouldn't make you think Itachi can be trapped, particularly when Itachi will see the doton sign.



1. Actually it wasn't. He was the one who was fast enough to be able to save Animal Realm from the FRS and he was capable of bypassing the defenses of an ANBU and 2 high level jounin without much trouble.

repeated the test

2. I agree that just because he was caught doesn't mean Itachi would be

3. Itachi seeing the doton sign really doesn't help because doton's don't typically happen like Yomi Numa.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 15, 2009)

omgbbq said:


> itachi > jiraiya
> 
> this has been done many times



Jiraiya > itachi, it has been done many times and has better evidence and feats. Itachi even said it himself.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Huh? Naruto has formed tons of clones far more than 20 feet away.



A single clone has never been formed far away from the creator or the clone of a creator. I would appreciate a scan of this if you have it.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Illusory said:


> A single clone has never been formed far away from the creator or the clone of a creator. I would appreciate a scan of this if you have it.



Hmm...there have been a lot of clones used and I can't think of anytime specifically.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Hmm...there have been a lot of clones used and I can't think of anytime specifically.



I think where you've seen it is Naruto spam. Which is more like a chain reaction of growth than anything. A clone always forms next to the creator or a creator's clone. So it's more than reasonable to assume Itachi's did as well and his shushin jutsu is just incredibly fast - which Kurenai said herself when he flashed behind her. Otherwise, if he can instantaneously form a singe clone at long distance than that would mean that he could basically instantaneously cause an explosion in your face if flashing behind and killing them didn't work. It's far more reasonable to assume that it was a feat of speed rather than a Ninjutsu feat.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Illusory said:


> It's far more reasonable to assume that it was a feat of speed rather than a Ninjutsu feat.



Its not even a great feat. Its a normal shunshin like anyone else does. The difference is that Sasuke was busy blocking shuriken and fighting, so he didn't notice it until it appeared behind Itachi. Don't get me wrong. It shows Itachi is fast, but we know that already.

It doesn't prove he is SM speed though.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Its not even a great feat. Its a normal shunshin like anyone else does. The difference is that Sasuke was busy blocking shuriken and fighting, so he didn't notice it until it appeared behind Itachi. Don't get me wrong. It shows Itachi is fast, but we know that already.It doesn't prove he is SM speed though.



Now you're just being ridiculous. Itachi, in the midst of throwing hundreds of shurikens to counter Sasuke's own, formed the seals and then had that clone scram before Sasuke's eyes even registered its presence. That's not SM fast, that's Raikage fast.


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## Cyphon (Oct 15, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Now you're just being ridiculous. Itachi, in the midst of throwing hundreds of shurikens to counter Sasuke's own, formed the seals and then had that clone scram before Sasuke's eyes even registered its presence. That's not SM fast, that's Raikage fast.





He had to form 1 seal, which is hand speed not body speed and then shunshin. So yeah, great hand seal speed, normal shunshin. 

Sasuke was in the midst of battle, how would he notice that while focusing on 100's of shuriken?


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 16, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Its in the data book description
> 
> Earth Release: Underworld* Swamp (土遁・黄泉沼, Doton: Yomi Numa)
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, All ranges
> ...



That's fine. Based on the description, the jutsu doesn't drag you down you only sink based on how much you struggle. The Pain body that was trapped wasn't sinking since he wasn't struggling at all compared to the snake that it was used on that was thrashing about. 

We know that by expelling chakra you can stand on water and defy gravity. If Swamp of the Underworld actually dragged you then you couldn't really fight it.



> No, I was asking for a scan of someone walking on something like Yomi Numa (ie chakra infused etc...).



All ninjutsu contains a person's chakra and is infused with when created. Off the top of my head, when Gai and Kisame fought each other. Kisame created water that had his chakra infused with it. Gai and the other's were still able to walk on the water's surface like it was regular water.


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## Cyphon (Oct 16, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> That's fine. Based on the description, the jutsu doesn't drag you down you only sink based on how much you struggle. The Pain body that was trapped wasn't sinking since he wasn't struggling at all compared to the snake that it was used on that was thrashing about.



You still sink no matter what, but the more you struggle the more you go...probably faster. I think its basically the same as quick sand. The more you fight the quicker you sink.



> We know that by expelling chakra you can stand on water and defy gravity. If Swamp of the Underworld actually dragged you then you couldn't really fight it.



Trying to get out would be considered struggling. 



> All ninjutsu contains a person's chakra and is infused with when created. Off the top of my head, when Gai and Kisame fought each other. Kisame created water that had his chakra infused with it. Gai and the other's were still able to walk on the water's surface like it was regular water.



Kisame's water wasn't a trap jutsu meant to ensnare people. It was a supplement jutsu to give him home field advantage.


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 16, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> You still sink no matter what, but the more you struggle the more you go...probably faster. I think its basically the same as quick sand. The more you fight the quicker you sink.



Look at the panels of Jiraiya's fight with Pain. He used the technique on the blind Pain and the body was still in the same position for several pages. He didn't sink any more than when he was first caught in the jutsu. Not only that but the other Pain that could see was able to dodge the jutsu completely.



> Trying to get out would be considered struggling.



This doesn't have anything to do with what I said. By expelling chakra to your feet you are able to defy gravity.



> Kisame's water wasn't a trap jutsu meant to ensnare people. It was a supplement jutsu to give him home field advantage.



Kisame's water jutsu in imbued with his chakra. He created water clones from that water and then trapped the other ninjas in water barriers. It can be used as a trap jutsu. Regardless, they were all walking on water that was imbued with his chakra.


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## Cyphon (Oct 16, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Look at the panels of Jiraiya's fight with Pain. He used the technique on the blind Pain and the body was still in the same position for several pages. He didn't sink any more than when he was first caught in the jutsu.



Well, actually, I don't need to argue this as sinking isn't that useful anyway, so I will let this go. Either way he was trapped and had no way out.



> Not only that but the other Pain that could see was able to dodge the jutsu completely.



False. The other Pain was in front and got caught and the 2nd body used him and pushed off to avoid it.



> This doesn't have anything to do with what I said. By expelling chakra to your feet you are able to defy gravity.



Which does what exactly when your feet are in the swamp?



> Kisame's water jutsu in imbued with his chakra. He created water clones from that water and then trapped the other ninjas in water barriers. It can be used as a trap jutsu. Regardless, they were all walking on water that was imbued with his chakra.



Okay, so they were walking on water imbued with chakra. What is your point? It doesn't relate at all to the swamp.


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 16, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Well, actually, I don't need to argue this as sinking isn't that useful anyway, so I will let this go. Either way he was trapped and had no way out.



Fair enough, I agree that once he got trapped in the position he was in, he wasn't able to get out on his own.



> False. The other Pain was in front and got caught and the 2nd body used him and pushed off to avoid it.



I'll take a second look and get back to you on this.



> Which does what exactly when your feet are in the swamp?



It doesn't have to be your feet alone. You can send out chakra from your hands as well. Ie Naruto doing this to climb onto the surface of water during the VotE fight.



> Okay, so they were walking on water imbued with chakra. What is your point? It doesn't relate at all to the swamp.



You asked for an instance where people were walking on a surface imbued with chakra and I provided one. A Swamp is made up of mud and water. I'm saying that Itachi, with his Sharingan, will see Jiraiya perform the Earth seals for the jutsu, see the chakra swamp, and react accordingly.

I don't like using the databook info for obvious reasons but let's not forget about this;



> The Yata Mirror
> [picture of Susanoo holding up the Yata Mirror]
> →The incorporeal shield of the "Sacred Treasures". Endowed with all "nature transformations," it can change its own characteristics depending on the characteristics of the attack it receives, making the technique ineffective.



The shield takes on the properties of the attack used and uses it to cancel the attack out. Jiraiya uses Swamp of the Underworld, Itachi has Susanoo use the shield to match the jutsu's properties and cancel it out.


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## Cyphon (Oct 16, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> It doesn't have to be your feet alone. You can send out chakra from your hands as well. Ie Naruto doing this to climb onto the surface of water during the VotE fight.



Your hands would still get stuck in the swamp. If anything using chakra may keep your hands from going in, but you still couldn't get out.



> You asked for an instance where people were walking on a surface imbued with chakra and I provided one. A Swamp is made up of mud and water.



No, that's not really what I asked for. I asked for an example of someone doing something similar to the swamp. Kisame's water isn't designed to trap and pull you in, like I said. So its not a similar concept. 



> I'm saying that Itachi, with his Sharingan, will see Jiraiya perform the Earth seals for the jutsu, see the chakra swamp, and react accordingly.



Seeing the earth seals wont help in this case, because Jiraiya has a unique doton. Most of the Doton's we have seen come from either the mouth or start right from the users hands or whatever. Jiraiya has a jutsu that can actually appear away from his body, something you would never expect from a Doton. 



> The shield takes on the properties of the attack used and uses it to cancel the attack out. Jiraiya uses Swamp of the Underworld, Itachi has Susanoo use the shield to match the jutsu's properties and cancel it out.



This wont help either. If Itachi is in the swamp, how does the shield touch the part of the swamp he is in? Sure, it could maybe nullify parts of the swamp around him, but it can't touch the actual part he is in.


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## SM00TH38 (Oct 16, 2009)

EXample: 
literally :ho
 wasn´t able to do.

as you can see a trap glue like justu can be walked on....
Gaara sand(quick sand) can be walked on...

stop over hyping a fodder tech.


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## Cyphon (Oct 16, 2009)

SM00TH38 said:


> EXample:
> literally :ho
> wasn´t able to do.
> 
> ...



Um, you do realize Kakuzu was stuck and couldn't move right?


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## SM00TH38 (Oct 17, 2009)

...and you do realize that the other fodder ninja was able to apply charka and walk on it right??? .... and you do realize that kakuzu was free like 2 pages later???

IF itachi gets hit with SotU a shadow clone can easily be made to pull itachi out, once out apply charka to his feet...end of SotU

Guys got off of this justu, its not that special... if SotU was so f***in hot why the f*** didnt jiraiya it teach to naruto instead rasegan????


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## Mist Puppet (Oct 17, 2009)

SM00TH38 said:


> ...and you do realize that the other fodder ninja was able to apply charka and walk on it right??? .... and you do realize that kakuzu was free like 2 pages later???
> 
> IF itachi gets hit with SotU a shadow clone can easily be made to pull itachi out, once out apply charka to his feet...end of SotU
> 
> Guys got off of this justu, its not that special... if SotU was so f***in hot why the f*** didnt jiraiya it teach to naruto instead rasegan????



The difference between the two justu is that Mizuame Nabara was made to adhere the mobility of the target. Yomi Numa has killing intent. Depending on how much chakra Jiraiya uses, he can basically make it deep enough as to where it can kill.


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

SM00TH38 said:


> ...and you do realize that the other fodder ninja was able to apply charka and walk on it right???



He used chakra before he stepped on it. We are talking about someone who is already stuck/stepped on it unaware.



> .... and you do realize that kakuzu was free like 2 pages later???



Well Kakuzu is a beast and probably was eventually able to rip himself free, but the jutsu is still different. He wasn't actually submerged in anything.



> IF itachi gets hit with SotU a shadow clone can easily be made to pull itachi out, once out apply charka to his feet...end of SotU



I agree completely, but while he attempts that Jiraiya will kill him.



> Guys got off of this justu, its not that special... if SotU was so f***in hot why the f*** didnt jiraiya it teach to naruto instead rasegan????



Naruto can't use Doton jutsu would be the most obvious answer.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> I was talking about base Raikage. Either way, there is nothing that says HM Jiraiya isn't faster than Bee as well, so still a useless comparison.



HM Jiraiya's got no feats indicating he's faster than Base Raikage and vice versa. So...why bother debating that? Raikage's full speed however, is easily faster than HM Jiraiya.

Sasuke's reactions>HM Jiraiya's.

Raikage's speed>Sasuke's reactions.

Therefore, Raikage's speed>HM Jiraiya's.

That's the crude basics of this. HM Jiraiya is probably faster than Sasuke, but we have no idea how much by, and therefore cannot debate it very well. What we do know is that Sasuke's base reactions are hugely enhanced by his Sharingan to the point where they're almost certainly better than Jiraiya's. And we also know these reactions don't allow him to keep his eyes on Raikage when Raikage's moving at top speed.

Raikage'd blitz HM Jiraiya.



> So we are allowed to make stuff up do to lack of knowledge?
> 
> Well in that case Jiraiya probably has Doton: Domu rendering all physical attacks useless. He just never used it because his opponents couldn't touch him
> 
> I can add other stuff as well since we don't use knowledge anymore.



What? Why are you trying to direct the debate away from the point? I'm calling you out on what amounts to an argument based on "oh we don't know for sure so I'm going to assume he can do something".

If we play this game, I argue Itachi can use Kagatsuchi and only didn't because he had no need to.



> Again, I stress that this proves nothing, for more than 1 reason.
> 
> We don't know Minato's speed feats....hell, we don't even know hos C would have ever seen them to begin with.
> 
> Another thing is we don't know Raikage's speed is the minimum dodging point, since all he did to dodge was use Shunshin.



Sorry, but considering Minato's known for crazy awesome speed, I'm putting him above Jiraiya.



> Really doesn't matter, the scenario is the same. Jiraiya was behind his opponent without them knowing he was there and due to shared vision from the outside he was stopped.
> 
> In Sasuke's case if there was another him standing to the back side, he would have saw Raikage appear and been able to defend with more than just a guesswork Amaterasu shroud. So the point still stands no matter how you twist it.



Sasuke wouldn't have been able to do anything regardless of how many points of view he had. He literally couldn't see the movement. Without the Sharingan he wouldn't even have been aware Raikage was right behind him.

And you're yet to counter the fact that Jiraiya only pulled this off while hiding inside a big cloud of smoke. 



> This is again, assuming you can see the person and they aren't in your blind spot. If Sasuke had shared vision he would have fared far better vs Raikage than he did with Sharingan.



No he wouldn't, he'd have been outright beaten. Without the Sharingan's reactions he wouldn't necessarily have dodged Raikage's elbow, let alone been aware of his position behind him.



> Sure, but shared vision would have more or less accomplished the same thing.



No it wouldn't. It would've just meant Sasuke gets to see himself being kicked around by an orange blur.



> I disagree and scans provided prove my point.





Not in the slightest.

1. Jiraiya got behind Pain because Pain found it harder to see him through the smoke as much as it was due to him being quick. If the Pain in question had the Sharingan it would've been capable of seeing him move through the smoke and wouldn't have been snuck up on in the first place.
2. Raikage moved too fast for Sasuke to see when standing directly in front of him. This was pure speed, unlike Jiraiya's feat.
3. Pain could put up a defence because he saw the attack coming from another angle. You could give him the Byakugan and get the same outcome. Give him the Sharingan and he'll see Jiraiya move behind him and be able to turn and counter attack by not only seeing things in slow motion but by seeing actions before they occur.



> Pain couldn't keep up at all, even when he was the aggressor. He attacked Jiraiya when Jiraiya was barely even paying attention and was kicked so fast he didn't even lift his hands at all. They were still by his side when he was kicked.
> 
> Then later on he already had his hands set for a summon and Jiraiya kicked him so fast he didn't have time. Summoning is one of the fastest jutsu mind you. See Minato's Hiraishin
> 
> So they couldn't directly follow, but they could see him appear in the other bodies blind spots.



So Human Realm got surprise attacked. The fact that three Pains were looking at Jiraiya when this happened when compared to later when only two/one saw Jiraiya go to punch him from behind just shows how it isn't a speed feat, but a surprise feat/

You seem to misunderstand something. The actual teleporation in of a summoned creature is amazingly fast. The bit before that? Fast as any other jutsu. Jiraiya being able to kick Animal Realm when he was in the middle of something isn't exactly a superb speed feat.

We know HM Jiraiya's faster than the Pain bodies, but none of his speed feats were that great.



> Assuming you see them at all



Yes, that's the point of the comparison. Shared vision means you see things from different angles and are harder to surprise, Sharingan's slow mo and prediction vision means you not only get better reactions but you also see an action before it's made. In other words, you get more time to consider a counter and get to see exactly what you're countering before it occurs.



> Exactly, which was the whole point of my statement. If we went by every statement made nothing would make sense.



Yes, I'm agreeing with you here.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 17, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> HM Jiraiya's got no feats indicating he's faster than Base Raikage and vice versa. So...why bother debating that? Raikage's full speed however, is easily faster than HM Jiraiya.
> 
> Sasuke's reactions>HM Jiraiya's.
> 
> ...



HM jiraiya with 2 toads reaction> sasuke
HM jiraiyas durability>>>>>>>sasuke 
HM jiraiyas durability>raikages
HM jiraiyas speed >=raikage
HM jiraiyas ninjutsu>>>>>>>>>>>raikage
Pas sage powered wind jutsu>>>raikages lightning shroud
HM jiraiya would stomp raikage.


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## killer455 (Oct 17, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> HM jiraiya with 2 toads reaction> sasuke.



natural frog energy enhances jirayia's neural synapses?

it's a 50/50% chance




DarkRasengan said:


> HM jiraiyas durability>>>>>>>sasuke .



unquestionably.



DarkRasengan said:


> HM jiraiyas durability>raikages.



got sharp sticks up his behind

it's a 50/50% chance



DarkRasengan said:


> HM jiraiyas speed >=raikage.



Shikai Raikage or Bankai Raikage?

it's a 50/50% chance either way



DarkRasengan said:


> HM jiraiyas ninjutsu>>>>>>>>>>>raikage.



long-range bushwack snipery?

undisputably



DarkRasengan said:


> Pas sage powered wind jutsu>>>raikages lightning shroud.



Bankai-cranked up lightning shroud Raikage?

it's a 50/50% chance.


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> HM Jiraiya's got no feats indicating he's faster than Base Raikage and vice versa. So...why bother debating that? Raikage's full speed however, is easily faster than HM Jiraiya.



I am more or less debating that you have proof of nothing you say, so you shouldn't stand so solidly by it. I am making no specific claims beyond SM Jiraiya and top Raikage are of similar speed, Raikage probably being a little faster.

You can't prove me wrong and I really can't prove me right, but it is where I stand based on feats and putting 2 and 2 together. 



> Sasuke's reactions>HM Jiraiya's.



I would need proof of this. SM Jiraiya is faster, has more experience and is better at taijutsu (IMO....or does he have a higher stat?)......anyway, all that to me says he would be able to react better than Sasuke.



> Raikage'd blitz HM Jiraiya.



Your opinion, which you haven't proven well at all.

My view is: Sasuke had trouble reacting or stopping both Itachi and Killer Bee, and SM Jiraiya is faster than both of them (again, IMO), so him not reacting to Raikage really proves nothing to me. 



> What? Why are you trying to direct the debate away from the point? I'm calling you out on what amounts to an argument based on "oh we don't know for sure so I'm going to assume he can do something".



I am not moving the point. You said something along the lines of "due to lack of knowledge we can assume something"....I don't remember exactly how you worded it.

So I went with it 



> Sorry, but considering Minato's known for crazy awesome speed, I'm putting him above Jiraiya.



Um, he is known for Hiraishin, which is a ninjutsu. He isn't known for actual speed as far as I remember. Hiraishin isn't actually speed at all, but is a technique. Its like saying Sasuke is fast because Amaterasu is.

Don't get me wrong, I think Minato was probably fast, but we really don't have any clue as to how fast, so there is no basis for comparison unless in fact they were talking about the Hiraishin technique and not his actual speed.



> Sasuke wouldn't have been able to do anything regardless of how many points of view he had. He literally couldn't see the movement. Without the Sharingan he wouldn't even have been aware Raikage was right behind him.



Like I said, give him 1 other body and he would have been fine. As soon as Raikage appeared behind him, "real" Sasuke would be aware and could have sent his Amaterasu shell straight back into Raikage. Again, no different than what Pain did. Pain was too slow to react to Jiraiya's speed unless he saw him from multiple angles.

What you forget is that there is no time lapse, from what one sees to what the other becomes aware of, it is instant, so essentially it is no different than Sasuke actually being able to follow Raikage at that point. He sees him and knows he is about to attack.

The thing is, your eyes don't really have to see your opponent. Its more about guessing/knowing where they will come from based on experience and such. 

Which is why I think Itachi or Jiraiya would fare much better against Raikage. Even if they couldn't follow his movement they would have a better idea of how and when to take action.



> And you're yet to counter the fact that Jiraiya only pulled this off while hiding inside a big cloud of smoke.



That was just the scenario. He threw the smoke because Pain got behind him, it is a common defensive tool. He then took advantage of that situation.

Then he went out of the smoke and got around the other Pain, again, with minimal effort, but Fatty saw him. 

change
change

Now here there is a distraction frog, but this is more for a speed feat than actually saying Pain didn't follow his movement.

change

To me this is impressive because if you look at Jiraiya's actual position, you see he is punching at the other Pain and then the distraction frog comes out an no sooner than Pain spots it is Jiraiya behind him. Jiraiya wasn't even at the proper angle to Shunshin that way and was more or less immediately behind Pain. 

Some people seem to overlook that one. Just thought I would throw it in there.



> No he wouldn't, he'd have been outright beaten. Without the Sharingan's reactions he wouldn't necessarily have dodged Raikage's elbow, let alone been aware of his position behind him.



See above. You are putting far too much emphasis on the Sharingan and speed, which you always have done

You can be completely outclassed in speed, but if you have the right technique and skill, you can still keep them from beating you with it. This has been proven on multiple occasions. You don't need prediction or to even follow your opponent, you have to know about tendencies and all that. 

Sasuke's issue is that he lacks the experience of being "overwhelmed" or the underdog, so he isn't good at covering for his weaknesses, which is a lot of the reason why Itachi shat on him so badly.



> No it wouldn't. It would've just meant Sasuke gets to see himself being kicked around by an orange blur.



See above, that is completely false. As soon as Raikage appeared behind him he would have known, where as with the Sharingan and not being able to follow him, he had no clue when he appeared behind him. Another factor in Sasuke/all Uchiha/Kakashi relying on Sharingan too much. 



> 1. Jiraiya got behind Pain because Pain found it harder to see him through the smoke as much as it was due to him being quick. If the Pain in question had the Sharingan it would've been capable of seeing him move through the smoke and wouldn't have been snuck up on in the first place.



You are missing my point. Pain was too slow to react to Jiraiya at any point in the battle when it was 1 on 1. He simply couldn't handle his speed. Jiraiya than got behind Pain whether Pain saw him or not and because he saw him appear he had time to throw out a defense. 

However, when it was 1 on 1, he didn't have the speed to keep up. 



> 2. Raikage moved too fast for Sasuke to see when standing directly in front of him. This was pure speed, unlike Jiraiya's feat.



The point still stands that Jiraiya was too fast for Pain, only through shared vision did he cover the gap. 



> So Human Realm got surprise attacked. The fact that three Pains were looking at Jiraiya when this happened when compared to later when only two/one saw Jiraiya go to punch him from behind just shows how it isn't a speed feat, but a surprise feat



So Pain was surprised he was attacked in a fight where he was attacking?  

I couldn't have said it more retarded myself *claps*

Again, the shared vision from in front means nothing because they are all looking from the same direction. What we are talking about is covering blind spots, which Sasuke lacked. See above again.

So sure, while Sharingan would have helped better there, in Sasukes case shared vision would have been better. Think about it, if the Sharingan became useless for him, why would an eye that covers his blind spots not be more effecient. It makes no sense to think otherwise.



> You seem to misunderstand something. The actual teleporation in of a summoned creature is amazingly fast. The bit before that? Fast as any other jutsu. Jiraiya being able to kick Animal Realm when he was in the middle of something isn't exactly a superb speed feat.



Pain already had his hands together and the summon ready and Jiraiya kicked him faster than he could summon.....when it was already prepared.....and as you say, summons appear quite quickly. 

Just saying. We saw Pain before summon quick enough to stop Jiraiya's "fastest" ninjutsu. He overcame that with raw speed as opposed to jutsu speed.



> We know HM Jiraiya's faster than the Pain bodies, but none of his speed feats were that great.



Again, I would need to know why. He seemed faster at that point than any character we had witnessed so far IMO. 

And just for clarity's sake as I know the whole "you are just saying that because you WANT Jiraiya to look fast" may come up. When I first read through the manga it was already most of the way through the Pain fight. So I was reading through everything before that point with no solid opinions formed. Obviously my word will be taken with a grain of salt, but that is a true story. I honestly saw him as the fastest we had seen outside of gated Gai.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 17, 2009)

killer455 said:


> natural frog energy enhances jirayia's neural synapses?
> 
> it's a 50/50% chance
> 
> ...



Im not saying jiraiyas reaction is better, just he has 2 elder toads on his shoulders watching his back, if jiraiyas already doing something to try and counter a move, they are his backup. Somewon throws a punch jiraiya can dodge, ma can slash the fist away as can pa.


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## Dexion (Oct 17, 2009)

I would say HM Jiraya takes this however, he can't get past Susano'o 

Jiraya is probably enough to take a Tsukoyami and survive it.
Amaterasu is probably also going to overwhelm him unless he's quick about sealing it.


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## killer455 (Oct 17, 2009)

IMO itachi loses to a fully-right-off-the-bat-bloodlusted, HM-Jirayia.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Oct 17, 2009)

*Itachi stomps with susnaoo!*

*Jirayias Yomi Numa does not work on ninjutsu techniques i dont no where ppl get that from it affects summons and ppl sure but ninjutsu?*

*on top the amount of swamp Jirayia would have to summon to sink susnoo is  equivalent to the size of the Pacific ocean given susanoos height and where the battle field is taking place it would be impossible!*

Itachi takes it with medium difficulty this has bee done before as i remember and Jiraya always loses!

*ITACHI IS SUPERIOR ON EVERY LVL !*


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2009)

Don't tell me some are still arguing that Jiraiya can move as fast as the Raikage to dodge Amaterasu.


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> *Jirayias Yomi Numa does not work on ninjutsu techniques i dont no where ppl get that from it affects summons and ppl sure but ninjutsu?*



You do know summoning is a type of ninjutsu right?

And why wouldn't it work on ninjutsu? Ninjutsu works vs other ninjutsu all the time.



> *on top the amount of swamp Jirayia would have to summon to sink susnoo is  equivalent to the size of the Pacific ocean given susanoos height and where the battle field is taking place it would be impossible!*



Jiraiya (especially in SM) is easily capable of a swamp big enough to take out Susanoo.

Look

This was the swamp he made to sink the snake and he was notably disappointed, noting that the drugs hadn't worn off. Give him full "health" and he could easily do it, give him SM and he can sink half the planet 



> Itachi takes it with medium difficulty this has bee done before as i remember and Jiraya always loses!



They never actually fought but in their one encounter Itachi more or less admitted to their equality and was forced to flee. 



> *ITACHI IS SUPERIOR ON EVERY LVL !*


*

Except for ninjutsu, taijutsu, strength and stamina.......sure....I guess being better at genjutsu makes him superior in every way *


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## Ra (Oct 17, 2009)

@ Munboy Jiraiya delusionalists don't accept the fact that base raikage is as fast as SM. They also don't accept the fact powered raikage exceed Jiraiya in speed not by a littlle margin, but by a vast margin.

They still haven't come up on how Jiraiya escape Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. Not even genjutsu.


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Oct 17, 2009)

I would say there about the same level, but I think Itachi with his Susanoo to be slighty better.


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> @ Munboy Jiraiya delusionalists don't accept the fact that base raikage is as fast as SM. They also don't accept the fact powered raikage exceed Jiraiya in speed not by a littlle margin, but by a vast margin.



Well, I don't know about others, but I am still awaiting reasonable proof of this. 

To be fair, base Raikage I definitely don't believe is faster than SM Jiraiya. That is my solid stance on that.

As for SS2 Raikage, I DO believe he is faster than Jiraiya, but there is not a large margin.

Again though, if someone can give a good explanation or reasonable proof I am certainly open to it.



> They still haven't come up on how Jiraiya escape Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. Not even genjutsu.



Yes they have, you simply ignored it or couldn't prove it false.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Well, I don't know about others, but I am still awaiting reasonable proof of this.
> 
> To be fair, base Raikage I definitely don't believe is faster than SM Jiraiya. That is my solid stance on that.
> 
> ...



Then why were we arguing about that?



> Yes they have, you simply ignored it or couldn't prove it false.



We were arguing Jiraiya's speed v "SS2" Raikage on the bases of Amaterasu dodging.

Also would you kindly explain to me how Jiraiya overcomes both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi without knowledge, please?


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## Drewto1 (Oct 17, 2009)

Itachi would win because Jiraiya get killed by pein in even while he is in SM and Itachi is stronger than Pein and Itachi never gets killed!


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Then why were we arguing about that?



I was merely arguing their speeds were close, or at least I thought I was.



> We were arguing Jiraiya's speed v "SS2" Raikage on the bases of Amaterasu dodging.



Yeah and I think with Jiraiya being of a similar speed, having stronger chakra and probably as much chakra or nearly as much could accomplish the same thing.



> Also would you kindly explain to me how Jiraiya overcomes both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi without knowledge, please?



1. He has knowledge of both. How much is the questionable part.

2. Avoid eye contact for the first 1 or since this is SM, have Ma and Pa constantly stand as disruptive forces.

3. Amaterasu can be dodged via Shunshin (if Jiraiya has the knowledge I think he does) and if not.....I guess it depends on what knowledge you think he has really.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> You do know summoning is a type of ninjutsu right?
> 
> And why wouldn't it work on ninjutsu? *Ninjutsu works vs other ninjutsu all the time*.



thats just it ninjutsu does not work on susnaoo period! because of Yata no Kagami nothing will change that!



> Jiraiya (especially in SM) is easily capable of a swamp big enough to take out Susanoo.
> 
> this
> 
> This was the swamp he made to sink the snake and he was notably disappointed, noting that the drugs hadn't worn off. Give him full "health" and he could easily do it, give him *SM and he can sink half the planet*



he doesn't have the feats! and its not the same area!



> They never actually fought but in their one encounter Itachi more or less admitted to their equality and was forced to flee.



do u understand the fact that itachi was later raveled to be a good guy right which basically contradicted everything ur talking about he never really had any intention to fight Jiraiya in the first place! he left because he already completed his main goal u do no this right he was not forced to flee he left cuz he didnt want to kill Jiraiya!



> Except for ninjutsu, taijutsu, strength and stamina.......sure....I guess being better at genjutsu makes him superior in every way



Jiraiya has no ninjutsu more powerful than susunoo or ama and hes not faster the itachi or his eyes so he gets raped in taijutsu so and we both no genjutsu is in the bag basically with the acceptation of strength and stamina yea itachi just about Superior in Every way


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> I was merely arguing their speeds were close, or at least I thought I was.



I went through chapters, I really cannot find anything suggesting that Jiraiya's reflexes are comparable to Minato's. Minato level reflexes reflexes+shroud [level 2] was what it took to avoid Amaterasu via side stepping.



> Yeah and I think with Jiraiya being of a similar speed, having stronger chakra and probably as much chakra or nearly as much could accomplish the same thing.



But the thing he's missing is the reflexes.
Sennin Mode can replace the shroud, the sage chakra replaces the chakra. only the reflexes are letting him down.



> 1. He has knowledge of both. How much is the questionable part.



Not here.



GrandKitaro777 said:


> Knowledge: None







> 2. Avoid eye contact for the first 1 or since this is SM, have Ma and Pa constantly stand as disruptive forces.



See above. And the translations I provided a few pages back suggests Jiraiya required both for a Sennin Mode fusion.



> 3. Amaterasu can be dodged via Shunshin (if Jiraiya has the knowledge I think he does) and if not.....I guess it depends on what knowledge you think he has really.



Correction, now I know how the Raikage is known here I can be more clearer.

It took Minato level reflexes+shroud+Biju level shunshin [aka Raikage "level 2"] to dodge Amaterasu. I highly doubt Jiraiya has the Minato level reflexes, had he had that then it would be possible.


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> thats just it ninjutsu does not work on susnaoo period! because of Yata no Kagami nothing will change that!



The mirror has to be in front of the attack to stop it. Why exactly would Susanoo be holding the mirror below itself or Itachi?



> he doesn't have the feats! and its not the same area!



You just saw the feats. He mad an enormous swamp while having screwed up chakra.

Now we can add in a few other factors to be more sure for you.

1. He is in Sennin Mode which means he has more or less unlimited chakra that is stronger than normal chakra and said to increase your ninjutsu.

2. We have the data book entry that says the user can increase the size with more chakra.

Are you honestly asking for more evidence of his capability? If you are just messing with me than please excuse my ignorance to your humor. 



> do u understand the fact that itachi was later raveled to be a good guy right which basically contradicted everything ur talking about he never really had any intention to fight Jiraiya in the first place!



I have never once argued that Itachi had any intention to fight or kill Jiraiya. I am merely stating that it doesn't make his statement a lie or prove anything. 



> he left because he already completed his main goal u do no this right he was not forced to flee he left cuz he didnt want to kill Jiraiya!



He was more or less forced to flee no matter how you look at it. 

If he was a bad guy then he is forced to flee because if he killed Jiraiya than he still lost Naruto to the stomach and may never have an opportunity again. 

Or, he gets stuck in a long drawn out battle where there is risk of killing his target in the first place or being killed himself, or even ending up with Kisame dead.

Point is, Jiraiya used a jutsu for the situation that prevented any "great" outcome for Itachi at the time. 

Of course, that can be argued I guess.



> Jiraiya has no ninjutsu more powerful than susunoo



Yomi Numa.



> or ama



Jiraiya in fact does have ninjutsu just as powerful. Cho Odama Rasengan is both fast and would be an OHKO as well as his Hair Needle Barrage etc.....the other thing is that he can basically spam his attacks with no risk while Itachi can't.

Not to mention it is OOC for Itachi to simply start with Amaterasu.



> and hes not faster the itachi or his eyes so he gets raped in taijutsu



Well, I believe he is faster, so I have to disagree with you there. As for taijutsu, it really doesn't benefit Itachi at all.

Lets assume for a minute Jiraiya wont be successful with taijutsu....that just means he stays at a range where he is far more effective and Itachi is far less effective. Itachi certainly can't beat Jiraiya in taijutsu, even if you believe Jiraiya can't beat him. 

So essentially you are arguing about a stalemate that just benefits Jiraiya.



> so and we both no genjutsu is in the bag basically with the acceptation of strength and stamina



Well, this is SM, so even though Itachi is superior, Jiraiya does have 1 major genjutsu that (in certain situations) makes his genjutsu far more valuable than Itachi's.


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I went through chapters, I really cannot find anything suggesting that Jiraiya's reflexes are comparable to Minato's. Minato level reflexes reflexes+shroud [level 2] was what it took to avoid Amaterasu via side stepping.



I understand your argument, but can you please tell/show me what Minato level reflexes are? Or can you even provide something that tells me they were superior to Jiraiya's?

If you can do that, I will gladly reconsider my stance. 



> But the thing he's missing is the reflexes.
> Sennin Mode can replace the shroud, the sage chakra replaces the chakra. only the reflexes are letting him down.



I have never seen him show poor reflexes. They seem fine to me.



> Not here.



Ah, I didn't notice the no knowledge part. Well, that does make things a bit different, but it is still hard to say.



> See above. And the translations I provided a few pages back suggests Jiraiya required both for a Sennin Mode fusion.



He requires neither, as the manga stated during Naruto's training, which was then reiterated again to Naruto.

I will provide the pages one more time, but I hope this is the last time you choose to ignore them.

laser

Link 1 says he was able to do it, but turned into a frog a little. If you look in the picture it confirms it. Jiraiya has his SM features but no Ma and Pa on his shoulders.

It says the same when Viz translates it.

laser

Link 2 says that even though he mastered it, he can't use it in battle. 

laser

Link 3 continues about it. 

So yeah, Jiraiya used Ma and Pa because he was supposed to, not because he couldn't do it.



> It took Minato level reflexes



Unquantified and useless for comparison



> +shroud



Admittedly improves his reflexes, but SM does more or less the same for Jiraiya.



> +Biju level shunshin [aka Raikage "level 2"] to dodge Amaterasu.



No such thing. 

1. Amount of chakra doesn't determine speed of Shunshin

2. If he used Bijuu levels of chakra he would have drained himself

3. Jiraiya has enormous amounts of chakra anyway.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> The mirror has to be in front of the attack to stop it. Why exactly would Susanoo be holding the mirror below itself or Itachi?



It has nothing to do with front or back its in general ninjutsu is reflected its a spiritual/magical item! until proven otherwise which i doubt since itachi is gone!



> You just saw the feats. He mad an enormous swamp while having screwed up chakra.
> 
> Now we can add in a few other factors to be more sure for you.
> 
> ...



yes i want evidence that supports ur *theory* that it has the power to sink ninjutsu techniques cause it seems pretty baseless to me there are no feasts on the subject so it wood seem u might be making it up!



> I have never once argued that Itachi had any intention to fight or kill Jiraiya. I am merely stating that it doesn't make his statement a lie or prove anything.



its contradicting wat we no to be the truth when he tell kiasme we should not fight he was playing into his true role as protecting the leaf so wat he was saying was not telling the truth he said it in-order to further 
his purpose!



> He was more or less forced to flee no matter how you look at it.
> 
> If he was a bad guy then he is forced to flee because if he killed Jiraiya than he still lost Naruto to the stomach and may never have an opportunity again.
> 
> ...




this i true! but as we saw he could of used ama to deal with the situation as Kisame wonder why would a retreat be necessary for itachi!




> Yomi Numa.



doesn't work here sorry about that!



> Jiraiya in fact does have ninjutsu just as powerful. Cho Odama Rasengan is both fast and would be an OHKO as well as his Hair Needle Barrage etc.....the other thing is that he can basically spam his attacks with no risk while Itachi can't.
> 
> Not to mention it is OOC for Itachi to simply start with Amaterasu.



itachi  Amaterasu. would burn thru all of the justu especially Hair Needle Barrage and Odama Rasengan for Christ sakes it burns fire! thos jutsu are not on par by any means!



> Well, I believe he is faster, so I have to disagree with you there. As for taijutsu, it really doesn't benefit Itachi at all.
> 
> Lets assume for a minute Jiraiya wont be successful with taijutsu....that just means he stays at a range where he is far more effective and Itachi is far less effective. Itachi certainly can't beat Jiraiya in taijutsu, even if you believe Jiraiya can't beat him.
> 
> So essentially you are arguing about a stalemate that just benefits Jiraiya.



U dont have to agree Jiraiya does not have the speed feats to put him on par with itachi when has  Jiraiya ever been praised for speed ,wat speed feat is even close to being able to react  faster lighting  jutsu speed the sharingan cant follow! *and we have not even see his true speed* but im pretty sure its above Jiraiya too 

this also plays into taijutsu plus sharingan prediction Jiraiya speed is not impressive if a blind pein body useing another pein body to witness the attack can counter i dont see how itachi would have a problem! 





> Well, this is SM, so even though Itachi is superior, Jiraiya does have 1 major genjutsu that (in certain situations) makes his genjutsu far more valuable than Itachi's.



this is when u draw the line genjutsu doesn't work on itachi there are no genjust feats of it working but there are genjutsu feats of itachi reversing!

Either way genjutsu is in itachi favor by landslide SERIOUSLY!


----------



## Ra (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm number 1 on your list. 



> Well, I don't know about others, but I am still awaiting reasonable proof of this.
> 
> To be fair, base Raikage I definitely don't believe is faster than SM Jiraiya. That is my solid stance on that.
> 
> ...



Let's compare

Jiraiya 10 meters away, then a high speed kick from the 10 meters.

*Jiraiya speed 2*

Vs 

Raikage 10 meters away, then a punch from 10 meters away.

Dodged a point blank attack with speed.

Base raikage and SM Jiraiya are both equal in speed, but powered up raikage goes to the next level. He instantly with pure speed escaped the sharingan line of sight.



> Yes they have, you simply ignored it or couldn't prove it false.



No, you've brought up theories.

Tsukuyomi argument: Chakra is constantly changing and ma and pa can break him out (Debunked)

Amaterasu: He can do a raikage shunshin or something close despite him not being in raikage speed league to do something like that. (Theory and yet have been proven)

Genjutsu (still debating)


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> It has nothing to do with front or back its in general ninjutsu is reflected its a spiritual/magical item! until proven otherwise which i doubt since itachi is gone!



No, it is a summon with a shield. So he would have to direct the shield to below himself or Itachi.



> yes i want evidence that supports ur *theory* that it ha the power to sink ninjutsu techniques cause it seems pretty baseless to me there are no feasts on the subject so it wood seem u might be making it up!



I already gave you one. A summon is a ninjtusu technique. Anyway, why wouldn't it sink ninjutsu?



> its contradicting wat we no to be the truth when he tell kiasme we should not fight he was playing into his true role as protecting the leaf so wat he was saying was not telling the truth he said it in-order to further
> his purpose!



May or may not be, but there is still no proof he didn't mean what he said. Only speculation on your part.



> this i true! but as we saw he could of used ama to deal with the situation as Kisame wonder why would a retreat be necessary for itachi!



That was his third MS use of the day and he admitted he needed rest. Now consider if he attempted to battle Jiraiya AND still needed another Amaterasu to escape + he doesn't get his target. He would have been risking death by chakra exhaustion, which if he killed Jiraiya as well, would fit perfectly with his mutual death statement.



> doesn't work here sorry about that!



Where is here? Are you talking about the location or something?



> itachi  Amaterasu. would burn thru all of the justu especially Hair Needle Barrage and Odama Rasengan for Christ sakes it burns fire! thos jutsu are not on par by any means!



I am not comparing one vs the other, I am comparing deadliest, accessibility and such. Which by all accounts, Jiraiya has far more jutsu than Itachi that could kill him.

Amaterasu is the strongest, but it is not without setbacks or flaws. 



> U dont have to agree Jiraiya does not have the speed feats to put him on par with itachi when has  Jiraiya ever been praised for speed



Jiraiya's feats vs Pain were plenty for me, but I am tired of arguing that with everyone.

Itachi's highest speed praise was for his hand speed anyway. 



> ,wat speed feat is even close to being able to react  faster lighting  jutsu speed the sharingan cant follow!



You would have to show me anyone with that feat first. I hope you aren't talking about Kirin either.....because that would be a retarded point to even attempt.



> this is when u draw the line genjutsu doesn't work on itachi there are no genjust feats of it working but there are genjutsu feats of itachi reversing!



You would have to prove genjutsu doesn't work on Itachi. SOME genjutsu doesn't work on him, but that doesn't mean all.

He only ever reversed a genjutsu based on vision, not sound.


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> Jiraiya 10 meters away, then a high speed kick from the 10 meters.
> 
> *Jiraiya speed 2*
> 
> ...



A few things

1. Jiraiya never moved for his kick. Pain charged him and then could not react to his "taijutsu" speed.

2. Raikage was blocked by Juugo, someone I don't consider fast at all.

So basically you just solidified my point for me. Thanks. 



> Tsukuyomi argument: Chakra is constantly changing and ma and pa can break him out (Debunked)



1. It was never debunked

2. There is also simply avoiding eye contact



> Amaterasu: He can do a raikage shunshin or something close despite him not being in raikage speed league to do something like that. (Theory and yet have been proven)



Again, I said it is possible based off of what we know and nobody has even come close to proving me wrong.

Try again.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 17, 2009)

Drewto1 said:


> Itachi would win because Jiraiya get killed by pein in even while he is in SM and Itachi is stronger than Pein and Itachi never gets killed!



Sadly, this is how 95% of itachi fans think, this is a retarted satement. Itachi would have extreme trouble with animal realm.


----------



## Jodyjoe the great (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> No, it is a summon with a shield. So he would have to direct the shield to below himself or Itachi.



nope its ninjutsu the ITS already benn classifed in the data book but if u dont believe me take alook  u cant fight it its cannon!



> I already gave you one. A summon is a ninjtusu technique. Anyway, why wouldn't it sink ninjutsu?



So lighting blade is a summon! NOOOOOOOO wat type of logic is that! 
.there is a clear difference it wouldnt sink ninjutsu because THE DB  didnt say it could so why would u assume it could that is basic speculation on ur part!




> May or may not be, but there is still no proof he didn't mean what he said. Only speculation on your part.



so i guess madrara was lying about being good and since u cant prove wat he said is truth why are u auguring about it!



> That was his third MS use of the day and he admitted he needed rest. Now consider if he attempted to battle Jiraiya AND still needed another Amaterasu to escape + he doesn't get his target. He would have been risking death by chakra exhaustion, which if he killed Jiraiya as well, would fit perfectly with his mutual death statement.



he didnt admitted anything  he also said there is no need to rush capturing the ninetails which brings up the fact hes trying to protect the leaf again when he said that



> Where is here? Are you talking about the location or something



no Yomi Numa.its ninjutsu that fails against susnaoo sorry!




> I am not comparing one vs the other, I am comparing deadliest, accessibility and such. Which by all accounts, Jiraiya has far more jutsu than Itachi that could kill him.
> 
> Amaterasu is the strongest, but it is not without setbacks or flaws.



It doesn't matter about quantity its quality Itachi ninjutsu are more powerful and every single technique he has can kill Jiraiya in secs! he has Superior ninjutsu by default!



> Jiraiya's feats vs Pain were*plenty for me*, but I am tired of arguing that with everyone.
> 
> Itachi's highest speed praise was for his hand speed anyway.



for u yes im sure but there is not enough to go against itachi in  serous debate 
compared to Jiraiya's no speed praises it doesn't matter wat there for its beyond him!



> You would have to show me anyone with that feat first. I hope you aren't talking about Kirin either.....because that would be a retarded point to even attempt.



why is that because Jiraiya' cant match it pls,,,itachi was able to react faster than lighting something that supposed to be unavoidable cause it strikes the ground at 1/1000 of a sec  its hundred times faster than the speed of sound! and yet itachi could react and ur trying to downplay that pls..they will be other ninja that Jiraiya well be faster than but itachi is above him! without even showing his real speed it retarded if u try to denie this!



> You would have to prove genjutsu doesn't work on Itachi. SOME genjutsu doesn't work on him, but that doesn't mean all.
> 
> He only ever reversed a genjutsu based on vision, not sound.



Well since there is no proof it works on him and he makes genjutsu specialist look academy lvl *itachi genjutsu reversal feats>genjutsu on him feats* it would be speculation to say there genjutsu would work!


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## Jodyjoe the great (Oct 17, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Sadly, this is how 95% of itachi fans think, this is a retarted satement. *Itachi would have extreme trouble with animal realm.*



and than u try to judge ur both in the same boat! as far as im concerned hes ur brother!


----------



## Soul (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> 1. He has knowledge of both. How much is the questionable part.



Thread states no knowledge.



> 2. Avoid eye contact for the first 1 or since this is SM, have Ma and Pa constantly stand as disruptive forces.
> 
> 3. Amaterasu can be dodged via Shunshin (if Jiraiya has the knowledge I think he does) and if not.....I guess it depends on what knowledge you think he has really.



So, Jiraiya is going to use Shunshin to dodge Amaterasu, but he will be dodging Tsukuyomi by not having eye contect?

Then how the hell do you expect Jiraiya to dodge Amaterasu if he isn't seeing Itachi?


Also, Tsukuyomi is a Genjutsu that affects the user immediately; Ma and Pa won't be able to help Jiraiya here.



DarkRasengan said:


> Sadly, this is how 95% of itachi fans think, this is a retarted satement. Itachi would have extreme trouble with animal realm.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> nope its ninjutsu the ITS already benn classifed in the data book but if u dont believe me take alookhttp://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoo u cant fight it its cannon!



Yes, a ninjutsu that is a summon with a shield. 



> So lighting blade is a summon! NOOOOOOOO wat type of logic is that!



Can you please provide a quote of mine where I said this? 



> .there is a clear difference it wouldnt sink ninjutsu because THE DB  didnt say it could so why would u assume it could that is basic speculation on ur part!



I never assumed anything. I asked you why it couldn't sink ninjutsu and you have yet to give a valid reason. Its pointless anyway, because we are discussing how it would work on a body.



> so i guess madrara was lying about being good and since u cant prove wat he said is truth why are u auguring about it!



Guess what you want, but why do you believe Madara was lying?



> he didnt admitted anything



*Jiraiya speed 2*

Any other parts of the manga you plan on conveniently ignoring? 



> no Yomi Numa.its ninjutsu that fails against susnaoo sorry!



Proof please.



> It doesn't matter about quantity its quality Itachi ninjutsu are more powerful and every single technique he has can kill Jiraiya in secs! he has Superior ninjutsu by default!



Honestly, my best answer I can garner to your ignorance is     



> why is that because Jiraiya' cant match it pls,,,itachi was able to react faster than lighting something that supposed to be unavoidable cause it strikes the ground at 1/1000 of a sec  its hundred times faster than the speed of sound! and yet itachi could react and ur trying to downplay that pls..


 
He was able to open and/or close his eyes when he knew an attack would be coming after Sasuke gave a speech. Konohamaru could have done that. Its not a speed or reaction feat.



> Well since there is no proof it works on him and he makes genjutsu specialist look academy lvl *itachi genjutsu reversal feats>genjutsu on him feats* it would be speculation to say there genjutsu would work!



Well, since non of Itachi's jutsu ever worked on Jiraiya it would only be speculation to think they would. I guess Jiraiya wins then.

Nice debating with you. Better luck next time.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Thread states no knowledge.



So I realized.



> So, Jiraiya is going to use Shunshin to dodge Amaterasu, but he will be dodging Tsukuyomi by not having eye contect?



I dunno. I certainly never claimed that.



> Then how the hell do you expect Jiraiya to dodge Amaterasu if he isn't seeing Itachi?



Why wouldn't he be seeing Itachi?



> Also, Tsukuyomi is a Genjutsu that affects the user immediately; Ma and Pa won't be able to help Jiraiya here.



They can if they are disrupting his chakra at a constant rate.


----------



## Soul (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> I dunno. I certainly never claimed that.



You claimed that Jiraiya would evade Tsukuyomi by not looking at him, and he would dodge Amaterasu by using Shunshin {Which I don't think that it would work}.

Itachi can use both of that Jutsus pretty fast; how is Jiraiya going to defend himself at all?



> Why wouldn't he be seeing Itachi?



You stated it yourself.



> They can if they are disrupting his chakra at a constant rate.



Constant rate ≠ Instantaneously.
Tsukuyomi will still affect Jiraiya.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> You claimed that Jiraiya would evade Tsukuyomi by not looking at him, and he would dodge Amaterasu by using Shunshin {Which I don't think that it would work}.



No, I listed them as options to each jutsu. Itachi doesn't just spam MS back to back anyway.



> You stated it yourself.



I did?



> Constant rate ≠ Instantaneously.
> Tsukuyomi will still affect Jiraiya.



I mean they will keep it different before genjutsu, so that he can never be caught....if it works that way.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Yes, a ninjutsu that is a summon with a shield



where has it ever been confirmed to be summon there is no such thing as ninjutsu summon and if there is show me i only asked because i already no it doesn't exist!



> Can you please provide a quote of mine where I said this?


 
right here


Cyphon said:


> I already gave you one. A summon is a ninjtusu technique. Anyway, why wouldn't it sink ninjutsu?



Wats this retarded logic on ur part and then u try to denie it!



> I never assumed anything. I asked you why it couldn't sink ninjutsu and you have yet to give a valid reason. Its pointless anyway, because we are discussing how it would work on a body.



and where does it say it can u assume it can and u ask me why wouldn't it work and im saying because its not in the DB that it would plus it has no feats plus susnoo shield is magical!



> Guess what you want, but why do you believe Madara was lying?



u say geuss as if ur not in the same boat the thruth about itachi contradicts everything he was going when he went back to the village and u chose to ignore this to suit ur logic! oh well!



> Sasuke Proof.
> 
> Any other parts of the manga you plan on conveniently ignoring?



only as much as u  ignore the fact the whole trip was a lie to hide his true actions



> Proof please.


 
proof it works pls on wait no feats to baddddd!!!!!!!!



> Honestly, my best answer I can garner to your ignorance is



call it what u want when ur beat but he still has ninjutsu over him! his jutsu aren't going away



> He was able to open and/or close his eyes when he knew an attack would be coming after Sasuke gave a speech. Konohamaru could have done that. Its not a speed or reaction feat.



lol if thats what u say but i didt see itachi blank and u dont no how if thats how the jutsu really done hes still faster and yea he reflexes are better if he can blank faster than lighting hes blanks hundred times faster and better than anything Jiraiya has done!




> Well, since non of Itachi's jutsu ever worked on Jiraiya it would only be speculation to think they would. I guess Jiraiya wins then.
> 
> Nice debating with you. Better luck next time.



THATS because hes ama proof itachi has never fought Jiraiya so that retard attempted trolling but he gets rape stompED by susnaoo since he has no real counter!!!! *the result would not change yea ur right better luck next TIME!!!!!!!!

itachi wins with medium difficulty*


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## Ra (Oct 17, 2009)

> A few things
> 
> 1. Jiraiya never moved for his kick. Pain charged him and then could not react to his "taijutsu" speed.
> 
> ...



I solidified no point of yours, you actually prove Jiraiya has hardly a speed feat to base your argument off of.

It could easily be put that pain never tried dodging that kick.

Also juugo have fast reactions considering he blocked raikage in tme.



> 1. It was never debunked
> 
> 2. There is also simply avoiding eye contact



Jiraiya can't win if he doesn't make eye contact and he doesn't have knowledge so why wouldn't he look into itachi eyes?



> Again, I said it is possible based off of what we know and nobody has even come close to proving me wrong.
> 
> Try again.



Actually we have proven you wrong, simply because you still haven't provided proof how Jiraiya escape amaterasu with shunshin or your proof is based off your theory.

Cyphon give up, you're all by yourself fighting this debate.

Your will of fire will burn out.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> where has it ever been confirmed to be summon there is no such thing as ninjutsu summon and if there is show me i only asked because i already no it doesn't exist!





> Summoning: Triple Rashoumon* (口寄せ・三重羅生門, Kuchiyose: Sanjuu Rashoumon)
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Defensive
> User: Orochimaru


 
Here is 1 example. Note that it says ninjutsu.



> Amplification Summoning Technique (増幅口寄せの術, Zoufuku Kuchiyose no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
> User: Pain


 
Example #2



> Summoning: Toad Store Technique (口寄せ・蝦蟇見世の術, Kuchiyose: Gama Mise no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, All ranges
> User: Jiraiya



And 3 should cover it.

Every summoning technique is a type of ninjutsu.

More specifically you questioned Yomi Numa sinking something that wasn't "living" and Oro's Rashamon is a perfect example. No reason he couldn't sink those.



> right here



So where is the part I said about lightning blade?



> and where does it say it can u assume it can and u ask me why wouldn't it work



Why would it not work based on its properties and what it has sank before? Its only a logical path to follow.



> and im saying because its not in the DB that it would plus it has no feats plus susnoo shield is magical!



It does have feats since it sank a summon and a person. Itachi is a person and Susanoo is more or less a summon.

Again, Itachi would have to know to get the shield underneath him or else it wouldn't stop it.



> u say geuss as if ur not in the same boat the thruth about itachi contradicts everything he was going when he went back to the village and u chose to ignore this to suit ur logic! oh well!



I am not guessing at anything. I can provide scans of Itachi's statement, you can only guess that he was lying. Big difference.



> only as much as u  ignore the fact the whole trip was a lie to hide his true actions



I never said he didn't have ulterior motives, in fact, I agreed that he did. You must have missed the part where I said that. You should try and follow more closely if you wish to be successful in having an intelligent conversation with me. 



> proof it works pls on wait no feats to baddddd!!!!!!!!



We have never seen Susanoo vs Yomi Numa, so we simply can't provide proof. But it is really no different than me saying Susanoo can't stop it. 



> lol if thats what u say but i didt see itachi blank and u dont no how if thats how the jutsu really done



Actually we do know the jutsu comes from the eyes, as the DB spells it out for us pretty clearly. He already had MS ready from earlier, so nothing was required.



GrandKitaro777 said:


> I solidified no point of yours, you actually prove Jiraiya has hardly a speed feat to base your argument off of.



Again, you are wrong. You showed me Raikage being blocked by someone who is essentially a Chuunin/low Jounin, whereas we saw Jiraiya being far too fast for someone who was bossing around S rank nin.

Again, thanks. I think I owe you a rep for the help. 

Its nice to see someone actually help the person they are debating for once. Its different and I like it. 



> It could easily be put that pain never tried dodging that kick.



Sure, and we could say Sasuke wasn't trying vs Itachi, but that is just ignorant.



> Also juugo have fast reactions considering he blocked raikage in tme.



Or it means Raikage isn't over the top fast.



> Jiraiya can't win if he doesn't make eye contact



I would need proof of this.



> and he doesn't have knowledge so why wouldn't he look into itachi eyes?



I originally didn't know he didn't have knowledge, so yeah, he may look into his eyes.



> Actually we have proven you wrong,



How so? You have shown me nothing that proves Jiraiya couldn't avoid Amaterasu.



> simply because you still haven't provided proof how Jiraiya escape amaterasu with shunshin or your proof is based off your theory.



I provided reasonable evidence as to why it is a possibility, I never stated it was a sure thing. However, you claim that him not being able to dodge IS a sure thing, yet you provide no proof as to how or why.

You really need to grasp this concept and we can move on with the debate. 



> Cyphon give up, you're all by yourself fighting this debate.



Its not a fight and I am making a stretch to call it a debate. It is more or less me making correction to a bunch of erroneous statements.


----------



## Jodyjoe the great (Oct 17, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Here is 1 example. Note that it says ninjutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so where does it say summon for susnaoo bring that up or does it say something different!

Its pointless debating it it doesn't say *Summoning Technique:* any where around susnaoo name if it did u would have a case but it doesn't susnaoo is made up of spiritual energy it has NO bottom it hovers over the user!

Ur logic when it comes to tHis is flawed for theses reasons even if susnaoo was sunk it wouldn't matter it has for arms to rescue itachi with!also tose jutsu u brought up don't move!



> So where is the part I said about lightning blade?



*IT WAS A EXAMPLE* U said ninjutsu =Summons and i showed u the flaw n that statement 



> Why would it not work based on its properties and what it has sank before? Its only a logical path to follow.



it would not work because susnaoo body can be form any where! even itachi just wanted a arm to appear sasuke showed this during the  5 kage arc! so u see susnaoo can appear deform and reform anywhere! and itachi did it when he was dying it started to deform and he reformed it it not something u can sink cuz *it has no real body*!



> It does have feats since it sank a summon and a person. Itachi is a person and Susanoo is more or less a summon.
> 
> Again, Itachi would have to know to get the shield underneath him or else it wouldn't stop it.



it doesn't matter i think with the four arms that can pull him out!



> I am not guessing at anything. I can provide scans of Itachi's statement, you can only guess that he was lying. Big difference.



and i can proivde statments of madara contradicting it saying it was a act to protect the village it doesnt matter wat u think u can prove in part 1 part 2 is recanting it!



> I never said he didn't have ulterior motives, in fact, I agreed that he did. You must have missed the part where I said that. You should try and follow more closely if you wish to be successful in having an intelligent conversation with me.


 
u believing that wat he said is true is where the disagreement lies his ulterior motives contradict his statement or due u really thing j-men can beat itachi+kiamse+more Akatsuki members in one fight there is sum-thing wrong with that logic right off the bat specially since we no wat there capable off eve u showed realize that by now it was not the truth!



> We have never seen Susanoo vs Yomi Numa, so we simply can't provide proof. But it is really no different than me saying Susanoo can't stop it.



since we no susnaoo can be reformed and deformed and hovers over ground i say it cant work and there and the logic backs me up!



> Actually we do know the jutsu comes from the eyes, as the DB spells it out for us pretty clearly. He already had MS ready from earlier, so nothing was required.




i dont no why from trying to fight this i no it comes from the eyes but itachi reacting in time  to save himself is the point reflexes are reflexes his can reacting faster then lighting strikes  if it was just a matter of blanking to use the jutsu the manga would of shown him using it its already understood susnaoo come from the body! not really the eyes but u need mastery in both to active it!


----------



## Ra (Oct 17, 2009)

> Again, you are wrong. You showed me Raikage being blocked by someone who is essentially a Chuunin/low Jounin, whereas we saw Jiraiya being far too fast for someone who was bossing around S rank nin.
> 
> Again, thanks. I think I owe you a rep for the help.
> 
> Its nice to see someone actually help the person they are debating for once. Its different and I like it.



I don't get you cyphon, at once you where arguing Jiraiya is fast enough to escape sharingan sight? But he hasn't shown any speed feats that suggest the latter.



> Sure, and we could say Sasuke wasn't trying vs Itachi, but that is just ignorant.



That's something completely different.



> Or it means Raikage isn't over the top fast.



Did you pay attention to the scans, base raikage dodged a point blank attack with speed.



> I would need proof of this.



You have no proof he can fight effectively against a kage level without looking him in the eyes.



> I originally didn't know he didn't have knowledge, so yeah, he may look into his eyes.



And he's defeated.



> How so? You have shown me nothing that proves Jiraiya couldn't avoid Amaterasu.



The burden of proof is on the person who say he can dodge amaterasu.


----------



## the box (Oct 18, 2009)

> Jodyjoe the great said:
> 
> 
> > so where does it say summon for susnaoo bring that up or does it say something different!
> ...


----------



## the box (Oct 18, 2009)

Drewto1 said:


> Itachi would win because Jiraiya get killed by pein in even while he is in SM and Itachi is stronger than Pein and Itachi never gets killed!



  

sigged


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2009)

The Fact that people don't think HM Jiraiya is Fast mind boggles me. The Fact that R1 Raikage is being assumed to be insanely fast also mind boggles me when Juugo and Suigetsu reacted to the speed(to be fair they barely did, but they still did none the less).


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 18, 2009)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> so where does it say summon for susnaoo bring that up or does it say something different!



Huh? Without proper speech and grammar I can't really understand your question.



> Its pointless debating it it doesn't say *Summoning Technique:* any where around susnaoo name if it did u would have a case but it doesn't susnaoo is made up of spiritual energy it has NO bottom it hovers over the user!



Doesn't matter. It is a ninjutsu or whatever you want to call it and Jiraiya can sink ninjutsu.



> Ur logic when it comes to tHis is flawed for theses reasons even if susnaoo was sunk it wouldn't matter it has for arms to rescue itachi with!also tose jutsu u brought up don't move!



The jutsu I brought up were summons. Your saying they don't move? 



> *IT WAS A EXAMPLE* U said ninjutsu =Summons and i showed u the flaw n that statement



No, I said summons were a form of ninjutsu.

Reading comprehension may help you here a bit.



> *it has no real body*!



We saw its real body, which is made of chakra. 



> and i can proivde statments of madara contradicting it saying it was a act to protect the village it doesnt matter wat u think u can prove in part 1 part 2 is recanting it!



So can you show me a scan of Madara saying Itachi was lying about his chances vs Jiraiya?

To me it seems Madara said he was only lying about being a bad guy. 



> u believing that wat he said is true is where the disagreement lies his ulterior motives contradict his statement



His motives were about who he was against, not who he had a chance against. Not sure how 1 could contradict the other.



> or due u really thing j-men can beat itachi+kiamse+more Akatsuki members in one fight



No I do not, but that wasn't Itachi's statement anyway. 



> i dont no why from trying to fight this i no it comes from the eyes but itachi reacting in time  to save himself is the point reflexes are reflexes his can reacting faster then lighting strikes



Again, not a feat of reflexes. Sasuke gave him a speech about the technique that was coming so he had plenty of time to prepare it. Then he simply activated an already attacked. Konohamaru could do something like that. 



GrandKitaro777 said:


> I don't get you cyphon, at once you where arguing Jiraiya is fast enough to escape sharingan sight? But he hasn't shown any speed feats that suggest the latter.



Again, I COULD accomplish what Bee did. I provided plenty of legit reasons as to why. If you refuse to believe them purely to benefit the character that you want to win than move on. You obviously can't provide proof to the contrary so why keep arguing it?



> That's something completely different.



No it isn't. You said Pain may not have been trying. How is my sentence different besides the fact that I exchanged the word "Pain" for Sasuke.



> Did you pay attention to the scans, base raikage dodged a point blank attack with speed.



So what? Lots of people do that. Kakashi dodge all of Kakuzu's attacks and even outran one of them. I am talking about Juugo being able to block Raikage's base speed. 



> You have no proof he can fight effectively against a kage level without looking him in the eyes.



Don't really need proof. I just said it was an option.



> And he's defeated.



Possibly. Depends on his genjutsu skill and/or mental toughness if it is Tsukiyami.



> The burden of proof is on the person who say he can dodge amaterasu.



I said it is a possibility and I gave my proof. You gave ABSOLUTELY no counter proof. My proof still stands as reasonable.


----------



## Jodyjoe the great (Oct 18, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Huh? Without proper speech and grammar I can't really understand your question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Getting directly to the real debate it doesnt matter wat u say susnaoo bends to the users will!

like i said it has no real body it reforms and deforms all the same on a whip u cant sink that 

and thats basically it itachi takes it!*



the box said:


> thats a ninjutsu
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nothing but pure coronary and flame bait in this cartoons post not even worth the effort!

ITACHI medium difficulty!


----------



## Soul (Oct 18, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> No, I listed them as options to each jutsu. Itachi doesn't just spam MS back to back anyway.



But Itachi can chooce any of them at any time.
You can't defend from Tsukuyomi by not seeing Itachi, as he could kill Jiraiya with Amaterasu.



> I did?



I understood that. If you didn't you may want to clarify your point.



> I mean they will keep it different before genjutsu, so that he can never be caught....*if it works that way*.



Which I don't think that works that way; at least not for Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Ra (Oct 18, 2009)

> Again, I COULD accomplish what Bee did. I provided plenty of legit reasons as to why. If you refuse to believe them purely to benefit the character that you want to win than move on. You obviously can't provide proof to the contrary so why keep arguing it?



No, I was stuck on that jiraiya shunshining B.S, if you're talking about kawarmi then that's a possibility.



> So what? Lots of people do that. Kakashi dodge all of Kakuzu's attacks and even outran one of them. I am talking about Juugo being able to block Raikage's base speed.



Again that says a lot about juugo and doesn't take away the fact raikage isn't less faster than SM.



> Possibly. Depends on his genjutsu skill and/or mental toughness if it is Tsukiyami.



His genjutsu skill is basic and he has shown no mental toughness to withstand tsukuyomi.


----------



## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Oct 18, 2009)

Jiraiya was a beast when in HM, but the same is for Itachi and he was not even healty. 
I would say they're on equal footing, but Itachi with his Susanoo should take this one, IMHO.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 18, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> But Itachi can chooce any of them at any time.
> You can't defend from Tsukuyomi by not seeing Itachi, as he could kill Jiraiya with Amaterasu.



Yeah, it would definitely be tougher to be ready for Amaterasu if you aren't completely looking, but I think even when not looking into the eyes there is still fairly good field of vision.



> Which I don't think that works that way; at least not for Tsukuyomi.



Doesn't it work like a normal genjutsu, only the effects are better IF caught?



GrandKitaro777 said:


> No, I was stuck on that jiraiya shunshining B.S, if you're talking about kawarmi then that's a possibility.



They are both possibilities. 



> Again that says a lot about juugo and doesn't take away the fact raikage isn't less faster than SM.



Raikage base is not or based on feats at least, the same speed as SM Jiraiya. Juugo was able to easily block him.

Pain....someone I assume is faster/greater than Juugo in most aspects, couldn't keep up with Jiraiya. Its also interesting to note that the body that couldn't even react was a close range or taijutsu body, so to speak.



> His genjutsu skill is basic and he has shown no mental toughness to withstand tsukuyomi.



We don't know his skill at breaking genjutsu, but I would agree his casting skill isn't good, as he admitted to it.

As for the mental toughness, I would bet a lot he could withstand it. He has shown great toughness and drive even willing himself back to life through sheer mental fortitude.....a feat currently unsurpassed by anyone else.


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## mangafreak (Oct 18, 2009)

itachi will ddomenate with sasanoo and amatersu


----------



## Cursed Avenger (Oct 18, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Your hands would still get stuck in the swamp. If anything using chakra may keep your hands from going in, but you still couldn't get out.



That's a baseless assumption on your part. The swamp is nothing more than muddy water that you sink in. Swamp water doesn't drag you in, gravity causes that. It's already been shown that by using chakra you can _climb out of water_ and defy gravity and guess what is surrounding Itachi when he is using Susanoo.



> No, that's not really what I asked for. I asked for an example of someone doing something similar to the swamp. Kisame's water isn't designed to trap and pull you in, like I said. So its not a similar concept.



Yes that is what you asked for. 



> No, I was asking for a scan of someone walking on something like Yomi Numa (ie chakra infused etc...).



Yomi Numa, like Kisames water jutsu, doesn't pull you in. It's muddy water. You can only sink in it when caught off guard. Regardless, in SMOOTH38's post, the jutsu used is a liquid trap jutsu called Mizuame Nabara and Kakuzu was able to get out of it and the other ninja was able to walk on the surface. 



> Seeing the earth seals wont help in this case, because Jiraiya has a unique doton. Most of the Doton's we have seen come from either the mouth or start right from the users hands or whatever. Jiraiya has a jutsu that can actually appear away from his body, something you would never expect from a Doton.



A unique doton? Lol don't let your bias cloud your judgment. Kakashi has shown to use a doton tehcnique away from his body as well as other ninja in the manga. Hand seals give away what type of jutsu is going to be used and with doton, it is painfully obvious that you will be either using the surrounding land or create it from your body. 



> This wont help either. If Itachi is in the swamp, how does the shield touch the part of the swamp he is in? Sure, it could maybe nullify parts of the swamp around him, but it can't touch the actual part he is in.



Whether it will change the swamp back to land wherever the shield is moved or simply cancel the technique outright, I don't know anymore than you do. What we do know is that the shield makes techniques useless. 

If it ever came to that, Jiraiya has nothing to counter Itachi's Susanoo.

Oh and one more thing



> List of debaters beaten lately
> Spoiler:
> 1. Grandkitaro
> 2. Munboy
> ...



 I wasn't aware that what we were debating was over, try not to get ahead of yourself


----------



## Ra (Oct 18, 2009)

> They are both possibilities.



Jiraiya hasn't shown to shunshin as fast as raikage to dodge something like that, and if he did manage to shunshin, amaterasu will still be hawking him because has shown no ability to move fast enough to the point he escape sharingan sight.



> Raikage base is not or based on feats at least, the same speed as SM Jiraiya. Juugo was able to easily block him.
> 
> Pain....someone I assume is faster/greater than Juugo in most aspects, couldn't keep up with Jiraiya. Its also interesting to note that the body that couldn't even react was a close range or taijutsu body, so to speak.



Juugo wouldn't block Jiraiya?



> We don't know his skill at breaking genjutsu, but I would agree his casting skill isn't good, as he admitted to it.
> 
> As for the mental toughness, I would bet a lot he could withstand it. He has shown great toughness and drive even willing himself back to life through sheer mental fortitude.....a feat currently unsurpassed by anyone else.



Since we don't know his skill at breaking a genjutsu like tsukuyomi, then it's pointless to consider he has a skill to break out at all.

Jiraiya has shown mental toughness, but even if he survived tsukuyomi he would be vulnerable from the pain tsukuyomi left him and would be near K.O.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 18, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> That's a baseless assumption on your part. The swamp is nothing more than muddy water that you sink in. Swamp water doesn't drag you in, gravity causes that. It's already been shown that by using chakra you can _climb out of water_ and defy gravity



Again, this is not just water. It is a chakra infused Doton ninjutsu designed to hold the opponent there. It would make no sense for you to simply be able to send chakra to your hands and pull yourself out.

Its a logical assessment. There is nothing baseless about it. 



> Yes that is what you asked for.



I think I would know better than you what I asked for, and that wasn't it. 



> Yomi Numa, like Kisames water jutsu, doesn't pull you in. It's muddy water. You can only sink in it when caught off guard.



I am not arguing that if he just laid the swamp out somewhere and you saw it and sent chakra to your feet to walk across you would probably be able to, but that is no how he uses it.

He pretty much removes the ground instantly out from underneath you or right where you are headed. Nobody could foresee it anyway without knowledge of it.



> Regardless, in SMOOTH38's post, the jutsu used is a liquid trap jutsu called Mizuame Nabara and Kakuzu was able to get out of it and the other ninja was able to walk on the surface.



Actually Kakuzu was trapped. He was only able to get out after he had fought of the user of the jutsu or whatever. Anyway, if you step in Yomi Numa you sink unless you already had chakra to your feet, so its still different. With Nabara the user is still simply on top of something with there feet on solid ground.



> A unique doton? Lol don't let your bias cloud your judgment.



How is it bias for me to state something obvious about a character? So if you say Tsukiyami is unique I should call you bias because lots of people have genjutsu?

Ridiculous 

Itachi tards get worse everyday 



> Kakashi has shown to use a doton tehcnique away from his body as well as other ninja in the manga.



And which one might that be? If you are talking about the wall he used against Pain, its still an obvious jutsu because he has to actually put his hands on the ground to "summon" it and it still appears close. 

Jiraiya however, makes a few seals and then a swamp can appear quite a distance away from him.

There is no Doton jutsu we have seen that even comes close to working like that. 



> Hand seals give away what type of jutsu is going to be used and with doton, it is painfully obvious that you will be either using the surrounding land or create it from your body.



Again, without knowledge nobody could predict Yomi Numa because it works differently than most of the Doton we have seen.



> What we do know is that the shield makes techniques useless.



Agreed. Assuming the shield has a way to touch the technique.



> If it ever came to that, Jiraiya has nothing to counter Itachi's Susanoo.



Yomi Numa.



GrandKitaro777 said:


> Jiraiya hasn't shown to shunshin as fast as raikage to dodge something like that, and if he did manage to shunshin, amaterasu will still be hawking him because has shown no ability to move fast enough to the point he escape sharingan sight.



He hasn't fought the Sharingan. We have been over this so stop repeating the same point. 

Based off of what he is capable of compared to Raikage means he can probably Shunshin as fast. It will never be a sure thing because he is dead, but it is a logical guess that it is very well a possibility.



> Juugo wouldn't block Jiraiya?



If he charged straight in for a punch? Maybe. But he doesn't really fight like that. Chances are Juugo would have been met with a Cho Odama and obliterated.



> Since we don't know his skill at breaking a genjutsu like tsukuyomi, then it's pointless to consider he has a skill to break out at all.



Yeah, but it is also pointless to assume he is just simply caught and can't do anything about it since he has shown no weakness to genjutsu.

So really there is nothing to debate on this point. I just think you are misunderstanding my points to most of these things.



> Jiraiya has shown mental toughness, but even if he survived tsukuyomi he would be vulnerable from the pain tsukuyomi left him and would be near K.O.



I doubt it, not in SM. Base Jiraiya yeah.


----------



## Soul (Oct 18, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Yeah, it would definitely be tougher to be ready for Amaterasu if you aren't completely looking, but I think even when not looking into the eyes there is still fairly good field of vision.



And even tougher without knowledge; I would say that it is very unlikely.



> Doesn't it work like a normal genjutsu, only the effects are better IF caught?



The effects hurt the opponent immediately; that is why it is better, and that is why I dfon't think that Ma and Pa won't help at all in that scenario.


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## Cyphon (Oct 18, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> The effects hurt the opponent immediately; that is why it is better, and that is why I dfon't think that Ma and Pa won't help at all in that scenario.



Maybe we aren't on the same page. I am saying Itachi can't make it happen if his chakra is constantly changing. 

If he IS caught seems to be what you are talking about, which I agree with from what we know.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 18, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> I am more or less debating that you have proof of nothing you say, so you shouldn't stand so solidly by it. I am making no specific claims beyond SM Jiraiya and top Raikage are of similar speed, Raikage probably being a little faster.
> 
> You can't prove me wrong and I really can't prove me right, but it is where I stand based on feats and putting 2 and 2 together.



But that's the thing, you're assuming that HM Jiraiya's that much faster than Base Jiraiya. His feats are better and logic dicates when in HM Jiraiya is faster, but we don't know how much by. Let me put it this way.

Sasuke's base speed is greater than Jirayia's. With no other indication, Sasuke's basic reactions should therefore also be greater as he needs greater reactions to keep up with his own top speed.

HM Jiraiya is faster than Base Jiraiya. We have no real clue as to who much by though. However, considering the boost HM gives to his strength it's probably fair to say it's pretty decent. The problem is it may not improve speed as it does strength. It might improve speed better than strength, or vice versa. The point is we simply don't know. Therefore, I suggest that a fair assumption is HM Jiraiya is in speed Tier 5 as that would represent a good leap in speed.

Sasuke's Sharingan gives him a huge increase in his reactions. We know this because when he first got his Sharingan he went from being unable to follow Haku's movements to being able to see them well enough to counter him and protect Naruto from his attack. Getting three tomoe in each eye was then able to further prevent him from being blitzed by Naruto. Further evidence of the difference this Doujutsu makes is provided by Kakashi. Without it he was being edged out in close combat by Zabuza. With it he was literally bitchslapping him around as he could now see his attacks before they happened.

In other words, Sasuke's Sharingan gives him a far more concrete reactions enhancement than HM Jiraiya's speed boost. At most you could say they basically give HM Jiraiya and Sasuke average Tier 5 reactions.

Raikage, when at full speed, is capable of outdoing these reactions to the point Sasuke only managed to defend himself because he had a jutsu that he controlled with his mind. His eyes couldn't really follow his opponent. Considering HM Jiraiya can't be said to have better reactions than Sasuke, I don't see any reason to say that Raikage can't move too fast for him to keep up with either.



> I would need proof of this. SM Jiraiya is faster, has more experience and is better at taijutsu (IMO....or does he have a higher stat?)......anyway, all that to me says he would be able to react better than Sasuke.



Sasuke without Sharingan, sure. See above for why this isn't the case when we talk about Sasuke with his Sharingan on.



> Your opinion, which you haven't proven well at all.
> 
> My view is: Sasuke had trouble reacting or stopping both Itachi and Killer Bee, and SM Jiraiya is faster than both of them (again, IMO), so him not reacting to Raikage really proves nothing to me.



He was able to react to both of them with moderate difficulty. Bee outskilled him in Taijutsu and Itachi's hands are obviously too fast for him. There's nothing indicating HM Jiraiya's faster than both of them either as the best we can say is that he's in Tier 5 for speed. He might be faster than Base Bee though as he doesn't have amazing speed feats (beyond that strange one where he managed to escape Taka and end up on a different mountain peak).



> I am not moving the point. You said something along the lines of "due to lack of knowledge we can assume something"....I don't remember exactly how you worded it.
> 
> So I went with it



I've just checked, I never said anything like that. The closest I said was saying Minato's speed>Base Jiraiya's.



> Um, he is known for Hiraishin, which is a ninjutsu. He isn't known for actual speed as far as I remember. Hiraishin isn't actually speed at all, but is a technique. Its like saying Sasuke is fast because Amaterasu is.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Minato was probably fast, but we really don't have any clue as to how fast, so there is no basis for comparison unless in fact they were talking about the Hiraishin technique and not his actual speed.



I was under the impression he was known not only for his Shunshin abilities, but his Hiraishin too. Regardless, I feel it's fair to say Minato's speed is higher than Base Jiraiya's. It's not like Base Jiraiya ever showed anything that amazing (he's not even blitzed fodder as far as I remember )



> Like I said, give him 1 other body and he would have been fine. As soon as Raikage appeared behind him, "real" Sasuke would be aware and could have sent his Amaterasu shell straight back into Raikage. Again, no different than what Pain did. Pain was too slow to react to Jiraiya's speed unless he saw him from multiple angles.
> 
> What you forget is that there is no time lapse, from what one sees to what the other becomes aware of, it is instant, so essentially it is no different than Sasuke actually being able to follow Raikage at that point. He sees him and knows he is about to attack.
> 
> ...



Another Sasuke would've seen Raikage appear behind the real Sasuke, but that hardly matters as the real Sasuke in the manga was aware of where Raikage was anyway. He put up the flames as it was pretty much all he could do. Seeing the attack from a different angle wouldn't have helped him.

Experience and intelligence can help, but only if the speed difference isn't that great. Against Raikage HM Jiraiya's not got any jutsu that could stop his attack, or that he could even use fast enough regardless of if he knows Raikage's right behind him or not.



> That was just the scenario. He threw the smoke because Pain got behind him, it is a common defensive tool. He then took advantage of that situation.
> 
> Then he went out of the smoke and got around the other Pain, again, with minimal effort, but Fatty saw him.
> 
> ...



So what this amounts to is Jiraiya obscured his movements in smoke, preventing the Pain he was attacking from seeing him. That Pain wasn't able to see him due to the smoke and was only able to block due to the presence of another Pain that saw the attack from behind. Jiraiya then distracted that Pain with a frog, ensuring that Pain took his eyes of Jiraiya, allowing Jiraiya to rush around behind him.

So he never actually escapes their sight due to sheer speed. 



> See above. You are putting far too much emphasis on the Sharingan and speed, which you always have done
> 
> You can be completely outclassed in speed, but if you have the right technique and skill, you can still keep them from beating you with it. This has been proven on multiple occasions. You don't need prediction or to even follow your opponent, you have to know about tendencies and all that.
> 
> Sasuke's issue is that he lacks the experience of being "overwhelmed" or the underdog, so he isn't good at covering for his weaknesses, which is a lot of the reason why Itachi shat on him so badly.



And you never seem to recognise the importance of speed, or the massive help the Sharingan is (I'd say it's actually it's strongest point, even better than the Genjutsu casting and jutsu copying).

You can always defend against speed if you have certain techniques. The problem is, if you aren't fast enough activating those techniques their existance is meaningless. This is the principle Raikage acts on. He can simply run you through before you can pull up your absolute defence.



> See above, that is completely false. As soon as Raikage appeared behind him he would have known, where as with the Sharingan and not being able to follow him, he had no clue when he appeared behind him. Another factor in Sasuke/all Uchiha/Kakashi relying on Sharingan too much.



Except Sasuke actually turned his eyes to look to his right (near where Raikage was). With his Sharingan he wasn't able to keep his eyes on Raikage but could guess at where he was. Shared vision would have just meant he'd see Raikage reappear behind him rather than have to make an educated guess.



> You are missing my point. Pain was too slow to react to Jiraiya at any point in the battle when it was 1 on 1. He simply couldn't handle his speed. Jiraiya than got behind Pain whether Pain saw him or not and because he saw him appear he had time to throw out a defense.
> 
> However, when it was 1 on 1, he didn't have the speed to keep up.



Except y'know, that one time when Jiraiya kicked Human Realm despite the other two Pains also watching. I'm having trouble thinking of when Pain was too slow to react to Jiraiya except for that one point where Animal Realm got kicked (which is skill as much as speed).



> The point still stands that Jiraiya was too fast for Pain, only through shared vision did he cover the gap.



Shared vision allowed Pain to see Jiraiya's attacks regardless of if Jiraiya was outside the Pain body he was attacking's field of vision. That's pretty much it. Please show me scans of Pain being effectively blitzed, then I can either disregard my old argument if you're right or I can counter your points directly if you're wrong.



> So Pain was surprised he was attacked in a fight where he was attacking?
> 
> I couldn't have said it more retarded myself *claps*
> 
> ...



You kinda did say it more retarded, I was just pointing out he got caught by a surprise attack. Funny thing about surprise attacks, when they're successful they tend to catch the victim by...you guessed it yet? Surprise!

Covering blind spots helps cover against surprise attacks. The reason having another set of eyes watching the battle is useless against someone so much faster is that if both set of eyes can only see things moving at X speed, then something moving at higher than X speeds will be too fast for both eyes to see.



> Pain already had his hands together and the summon ready and Jiraiya kicked him faster than he could summon.....when it was already prepared.....and as you say, summons appear quite quickly.
> 
> Just saying. We saw Pain before summon quick enough to stop Jiraiya's "fastest" ninjutsu. He overcame that with raw speed as opposed to jutsu speed.



So he was on the verge of using the jutsu when Jiraiya kicked him. Still not that amazing. 



> Again, I would need to know why. He seemed faster at that point than any character we had witnessed so far IMO.
> 
> And just for clarity's sake as I know the whole "you are just saying that because you WANT Jiraiya to look fast" may come up. When I first read through the manga it was already most of the way through the Pain fight. So I was reading through everything before that point with no solid opinions formed. Obviously my word will be taken with a grain of salt, but that is a true story. I honestly saw him as the fastest we had seen outside of gated Gai.



Oh don't worry, I was only going to say "You're just saying this because you're misinterpreting it." :ho

And the reason they aren't great is that they haven't achieved the sort of things other speed feats have. Raikage blitzed the Sharingan, Lee was the first one to show us movements faster than other characters can keep up with, Sasuke very nearly blitzed someone in his own speed tier.

HM Jiraiya on the other hand was able to hit someone slower than he was, who had no amazing speed feats of his own.


----------



## Soul (Oct 18, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Maybe we aren't on the same page. I am saying Itachi can't make it happen if his chakra is constantly changing.
> 
> If he IS caught seems to be what you are talking about, which I agree with from what we know.



I see.
So, Itachi _*won't*_ be able to catch Jiraiya in a Genjutsu {even with Tsukuyomi} since Jiraiya's chakra is changing?


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## On and On (Oct 18, 2009)

Itachi wins 

Jiraiya is going to be screwed against genjutsu, bunshin daibakuha will be fatal, and he has nothing against Susano'o. Plus, there is a suiton source in this location


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## Cyphon (Oct 18, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> But that's the thing, you're assuming that HM Jiraiya's that much faster than Base Jiraiya. His feats are better and logic dicates when in HM Jiraiya is faster, but we don't know how much by. Let me put it this way.



Well sure, there are a lot of things we can't quantify like that.



> Sasuke's base speed is greater than Jirayia's. With no other indication, Sasuke's basic reactions should therefore also be greater as he needs greater reactions to keep up with his own top speed.



I don't believe base Sasuke is faster than base Jiraiya or if he is, it would be by very little.



> Therefore, I suggest that a fair assumption is HM Jiraiya is in speed Tier 5 as that would represent a good leap in speed.



Agreed. I mean, it is only a .5 leap which doesn't seem all that drastic. 



> In other words, Sasuke's Sharingan gives him a far more concrete reactions enhancement than HM Jiraiya's speed boost. At most you could say they basically give HM Jiraiya and Sasuke average Tier 5 reactions.



Here is where we differ a little bit. I think naturally Jiraiya has better reactions than Sasuke even with his Sharingan. I am big on experience as you probably already know, so I think older nin (especially ones of this caliber) are naturally more adept at reacting. 

And this is base. Give Jiraiya more speed plus Ma and Pa watching out for him and I think there is a decent gap there.



> Considering HM Jiraiya can't be said to have better reactions than Sasuke, I don't see any reason to say that Raikage can't move too fast for him to keep up with either.



Covered above.



> He was able to react to both of them with moderate difficulty.



We disagree on the speed difference, so its hard to move on from there about this. 



> I've just checked, I never said anything like that. The closest I said was saying Minato's speed>Base Jiraiya's.



Ah, well if you didn't my mistake than. Again though, that is not proven or even implied.



> I was under the impression he was known not only for his Shunshin abilities, but his Hiraishin too.



Maybe, I would have to look back on it.



> Regardless, I feel it's fair to say Minato's speed is higher than Base Jiraiya's.



I mean maybe, its hard to say. Even if Jiraiya never did anything extreme he still got a 4.5, so its not as if he isn't in a high tier of speed. Minato would probably be given a 5, but the gap probably isn't that large.



> It's not like Base Jiraiya ever showed anything that amazing (he's not even blitzed fodder as far as I remember )
> 
> To be fair his only real encounters were vs Oro, Itachi and Pain.....far from fodder. When he did face fodder he was at a bar drinking or had a tongue lick Ebisu
> 
> ...


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 18, 2009)

The Comedian said:


> Itachi wins
> 
> Jiraiya is going to be screwed against genjutsu, bunshin daibakuha will be fatal, and he has nothing against Susano'o. Plus, there is a suiton source in this location



Jiraiya wins.

Itachi is going to be screwed against the sheer power and speed of Jiraiya. Cho Odama Rasengan will be fatal and Itachi has nothing against Yomi Numa. Plus, there is Ma and Pa to add even more.


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## Soul (Oct 18, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Yeah, if they can keep it constantly changing. I am not saying they can for sure, just that they may be able to based on the whole senjutsu thing.



I wouldn't say so, but it is a possiblility.



> I assume you can't catch and control a constantly changing chakra.



I assume that you can, but you may need:


Excellent mastery of Genjutsu.
Knowledge of it.
Also, the fact that Tsukuyomi's effect are almost instantaneous should help Itachi to heavily damage Jiraiya.



> I still wonder too if having sage chakra (being stronger than normal) would help prevent genjutsu as well.



But that wouldn't help to deal with Tsukuyomi.



Cyphon said:


> Jiraiya wins.
> 
> Itachi is going to be screwed against the sheer power and speed of Jiraiya. Cho Odama Rasengan will be fatal and Itachi has nothing against Yomi Numa. Plus, there is Ma and Pa to add even more.



I see what you did there


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## Ra (Oct 18, 2009)

> He hasn't fought the Sharingan. We have been over this so stop repeating the same point.
> 
> Based off of what he is capable of compared to Raikage means he can probably Shunshin as fast. It will never be a sure thing because he is dead, but it is a logical guess that it is very well a possibility.
> 
> Quote:



And because he hasn't fought a sharingan user, you have no case not even a argument. We can't even endeavor to assume his speed can surpass the sharingan because he has shown no feat.

This can keep going in circles you know.



> If he charged straight in for a punch? Maybe. But he doesn't really fight like that. Chances are Juugo would have been met with a Cho Odama and obliterated.



No need to deviate from the point, if Jiraiya charged in with a blitz juugo would block just as he blocked Raikage.



> I doubt it, not in SM. Base Jiraiya yeah.



Jiraiya burning/stabbed/tortured for 72 hours or longer would not allow him to walk out of tsukuyomi 100 percent, he would be near death or dead.


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## Seon (Oct 18, 2009)

lols...adding Ma and Pa.. isn't a Jutsu.

You guys understand if you add ma and pa... then it's 3 vs 1 not 1 vs 1 anymore.

Seriously, Fukusaku and the other woman are separate beings, who taught Naruto sage mode.

In Fact, Jiraiya didn't even have full talent over it. He NEEDED their help.


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## Cyphon (Oct 18, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> if Jiraiya charged in with a blitz juugo would block just as he blocked Raikage.



Doubt it. 



> Jiraiya burning/stabbed/tortured for 72 hours or longer would not allow him to walk out of tsukuyomi 100 percent, he would be near death or dead.



He certainly wouldn't be 100%, but I think he could still be in fighting condition.


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## Seon (Oct 18, 2009)

Tsukiyomi can KILL. People seem to think it can't.

Itachi chose not to, because he's a pacifist.


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## Tengu (Oct 19, 2009)

Itachi wins with high difficulty.


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## the box (Oct 19, 2009)

jirayain HM is to fast for itachi, in genjutsu itachi needs to lok jiraya in the eyes. in HM he can blitz itachi and sense when he is coming.

HM jiraya also has itachi out classed in ninjutsu.

itachis katons wont stand a chance against jirayas jutsu


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## Federer (Oct 19, 2009)

the box said:


> jirayain HM is to fast for itachi,



Proof?



> in genjutsu itachi needs to lok jiraya in the eyes.



No problem, since Jiraiya already looked into Itachi's eyes in the manga and unlike Guy, he can't fight an opponent by watching at their feet, atleast he doesn't have feats for it.



> in HM he can blitz itachi and sense when he is coming.



Blitz Itachi? Proof?



> HM jiraya also has itachi out classed in ninjutsu.



Jiraiya does have more ninjutsu, yes. However, Itachi has with Amaterasu and Susano'o, more dangerous ninjutsu. 



> itachis katons wont stand a chance against jirayas jutsu



Than I assume it's a good thing that Itachi isn't a ninja who uses mere katons.


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 19, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Again, this is not just water. It is a chakra infused Doton ninjutsu designed to hold the opponent there. It would make no sense for you to simply be able to send chakra to your hands and pull yourself out.



The jutsu I mentioned is a chakra infused suiton ninjutsu designed to hold the opponent. And yet Neji concentrated his chakra to disrupt the flow of chakra in the jutsu and break free. We're not talking about what makes sense or not, we're talking about what's been proven to work. 



> Its a logical assessment. There is nothing baseless about it.
> 
> *It would make no sense for you to simply be able to send chakra to your hands and pull yourself out.*



This is hardly a logical assessment. You think because it doesn't make sense that it isn't possible, even though it's been proven that it works. This and your previous statement are indeed baseless.



> I am not arguing that if he just laid the swamp out somewhere and you saw it and sent chakra to your feet to walk across you would probably be able to, but that is no how he uses it.
> 
> He pretty much removes the ground instantly out from underneath you or right where you are headed. Nobody could foresee it anyway without knowledge of it.



Neither was I, I was arguing and proving that;

a) it wouldn't be able to sink Itachi since he has chakra surrounding him and that would keep him afloat. 

b) Yata's mirror will cancel the jutsu

c) if Susanoo wasn't surrounding him, that it's possible to climb out by using your chakra to do so



> Actually Kakuzu was trapped. He was only able to get out after he had fought of the user of the jutsu or whatever. Anyway, if you step in Yomi Numa you sink unless you already had chakra to your feet, so its still different. With Nabara the user is still simply on top of something with there feet on solid ground.



See above point 



> How is it bias for me to state something obvious about a character? So if you say Tsukiyami is unique I should call you bias because lots of people have genjutsu?
> 
> Ridiculous



Swamp of the Underworld is an A rank earth jutsu that immobilizes the opponent. There are no special requirements to use it. That means anyone that can use earth nature chakra and ninjutsu, is able to learn and perform it. If anything Gamaguchi Shibari and Kekkai Gama Hyōrō is unique compared to Swamp of the Underworld. There are other elemental jutsu that have the same makeup to varying degrees as Yomi Numa. Unlike Yomi Numa, not every everyone who can use genjutsu can use Tsukuyomi, you need the Mangekyo Sharingan. Yomi Numa, isn't unique, but it is one of the most powerful doton ninjutsu we've seen so far.



> Itachi tards get worse everyday



Petty name calling? Is this what your rebuttals are going to turn into  Am I supposed to call you a Jiraiyatard because you're debating against me? 



> And which one might that be? If you are talking about the wall he used against Pain, its still an obvious jutsu because he has to actually put his hands on the ground to "summon" it and it still appears close.



It's obvious because he put his hands on the ground, but it isn't obvious when you use seals to give your technique away?  
I'm pretty sure the wall appeared where Kakashi created it to appear which was behind Pain. Similarly in both instances that Jiraiya used Yomi Numa he was relatively close to where the jutsu appeared.



> Jiraiya however, makes a few seals and then a swamp can appear quite a distance away from him.



In both instances Jiraiya was close to the area where the jutsu was used. 



> Agreed. Assuming the shield has a way to touch the technique.



The shield isn't somthing stationary, unless you're uder the impression that he can't aim the shield at the ground and cancel the ninjutsu.



> Yomi Numa.



Yata's Mirror. Itachi has a legendary spiritual item that cancels ninjutsu and your rebuttal is that ninjutsu is going to work on it?


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## Cyphon (Oct 19, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> The jutsu I mentioned is a chakra infused suiton ninjutsu designed to hold the opponent. And yet Neji concentrated his chakra to disrupt the flow of chakra in the jutsu and break free. We're not talking about what makes sense or not, we're talking about what's been proven to work.



I will say it one more time and then I will let you continue to chase your tail. YOMI NUMA SUBMERGES THE PERSON. The Suiton jutsu lets you stand on it its just your feet are stuck. So you could still send chakra and have something to push off of. In the swamp you are SUBMERGED. So if you send chakra to your feet it wont do anything. 

In the end it doesn't matter. Even if they could get out that is just the thing, they are focused on that meaning Jiraiya kills them anyway.

And again, nothing has been proven to work on Yomi Numa.



> This is hardly a logical assessment. You think because it doesn't make sense that it isn't possible, even though it's been proven that it works.



See above. Nothing has been shown to work. You don't think Pain can send chakra to his hands and feet?



> a) it wouldn't be able to sink Itachi since he has chakra surrounding him and that would keep him afloat.



1. The chakra has to be focused and kept even specifically for you to be able to walk on water.

2. We don't know if Susanoo even covers him from below.



> b) Yata's mirror will cancel the jutsu



Only if it can place the shield down before Yomi Numa happens. Then it could only (possibly) cancel that parts that Itachi isn't stuck in.



> [/c) if Susanoo wasn't surrounding him, that it's possible to climb out by using your chakra to do so



Most likely not.



> There are no special requirements to use it. That means anyone that can use earth nature chakra and ninjutsu, is able to learn and perform it.



Again you missed the point, which you seem to do a lot. Please try to focus so I don't have to repeat myself.

I am talking about the jutsu itself being the only Doton jutsu that works as it does. Every other jutsu tends to appear right near the user with the only possible exception being Yamato.....and I can't remember if he does anything like that or not with just Doton.

I didn't say nobody else could learn it.



> Petty name calling? Is this what your rebuttals are going to turn into  Am I supposed to call you a Jiraiyatard because you're debating against me?



Giving you an appropriate label is not name calling. You are classified (along with many others) by most of the forums as such. Just as some would call me a Jiraiya tard.



> It's obvious because he put his hands on the ground, but it isn't obvious when you use seals to give your technique away?



Seeing seals lets you know the element of the jutsu and nothing else. His hands being placed on the ground let you know that the technique should come from the ground. Whereas some Doton's come from the users mouth or simply out of his hands while not touching the ground.



> I'm pretty sure the wall appeared where Kakashi created it to appear which was behind Pain.



Again, within a very close proximity. 



> Similarly in both instances that Jiraiya used Yomi Numa he was relatively close to where the jutsu appeared.





Its hard to tell but it doesn't look like he is close to the ground at all here. The one vs Pain he was on the ground and made it appear on the ceiling. Pretty hax.



> The shield isn't somthing stationary, unless you're uder the impression that he can't aim the shield at the ground and cancel the ninjutsu.



He could if he knew it was coming, but he wont.



> Yata's Mirror. Itachi has a legendary spiritual item that cancels ninjutsu and your rebuttal is that ninjutsu is going to work on it?



No. It will work on Susanoo or Itachi and never hit the shield because it comes from the ground.

Again, I am begging you to please take your time to understand my points before you respond. Its like we are discussing 2 different arguments for no reason or maybe you just like to change my words.


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## killer455 (Oct 19, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Giving you an appropriate label is not name calling. You are classified (along with many others) by most of the forums as such. Just as some would call me a Jiraiya tard.QUOTE]
> 
> you lost all your credit for making such a statement.


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## killer455 (Oct 19, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Damn. I feel so relieved that I don't give a damn what you think
> 
> You almost ruined my day.



IMO you were winning logistically and neutraly until that sparky remark full of bias.

bias in general is evil.


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## Cyphon (Oct 19, 2009)

killer455 said:


> IMO you were winning logistically until that sparky remark.



Snide remarks don't change anything about who is making better points. You don't have to be nice to debate well. 

Anyway, this is off topic. 

Sorry for snapping at you a little.


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## killer455 (Oct 19, 2009)

hmmm.......okay so the OP stated that there are no restrictions for both opponents and Jirayia is already in HM turbo-charger.

plus both opponents know nothing about eachother.

not sure what kind of advantages the location's terrain offers (cover interferences, hiding hatches....etc.)

IMO a full bloodlust crazed, HM-powered Jirayia should win. 

(depending on how well circumstances turn out in itachi's side of counter)


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## Vergil642 (Oct 19, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Well sure, there are a lot of things we can't quantify like that.



And if we can't quantify them then there's no reason for us to say they're at a significantly higher level. A higher level clearly, as it gives a boost of some sort, but without knowing what it is it is foolish to simply assume it's as large as you imply.



> I don't believe base Sasuke is faster than base Jiraiya or if he is, it would be by very little.



Sasuke nearly blitzed Deidara, someone in his own speed tier, twice. Jiraiya has managed to...um...

I think you get my point here. Without feats to counter Sasuke's, I would say it's fair to make a stab at Sasuke being the faster of the two. Not by a hugely wide margin, Jiraiya is a close combat fighter after all, but nevertheless, faster.



> Agreed. I mean, it is only a .5 leap which doesn't seem all that drastic.



Thankyou.



> Here is where we differ a little bit. I think naturally Jiraiya has better reactions than Sasuke even with his Sharingan. I am big on experience as you probably already know, so I think older nin (especially ones of this caliber) are naturally more adept at reacting.
> 
> And this is base. Give Jiraiya more speed plus Ma and Pa watching out for him and I think there is a decent gap there.



Jiraiya or HM Jiraiya? I'll assume HM Jiraiya, as basic logic dictates this is simply false when applied to Base Jiraiya, and I shall expand on this shortly. Firstly however, experience has nothing to do with basic, raw reaction times. Experience helps use that basic raw reaction time better, but does not physically enhance it.

I would argue it's delusional to think anyone without a Sharingan is going to have better reactions than someone with a Sharingan if they're in the same speed tier. Just look at Kakashi and Zabuza. Comperable in every area, yet with the Sharingan Kakashi not only beat Zabuza around like a bitch but was actually being beaten by him before pulling it out. The Sharingan gives a very tangible and somewhat surprising boost to one's reaction times.



> Covered above.



Same.



> We disagree on the speed difference, so its hard to move on from there about this.



It isn't really, it's simply a matter of comparing our opinions and the reasons behind them.

I would argue Sasuke didn't have trouble with his opponent's speeds, but their level of skill. Without the Sharingan Sasuke was keeping up with Bee's movements and defending himself. However, he left himself open later when the Sharingan was active and he made an attack, which Bee took advantage of with his superior skill. Bee later used his fastest attack in Rari Atto, but Sasuke's Sharingan allowed him to dodge it, once again having no problem with the speed. He was only struck when attacked from behind.

Similarly, Sasuke didn't ever get outsped by Itachi. He was able to counter the things Itachi threw at him (partly due to Itachi's intention with each attack). The one time he got outsped was when Itachi created the KB and he couldn't keep up. So what does this mean? Simple. Sasuke could keep up with someone who is clearly very fast in Killer Bee, and able to evade his attacks and deal with his fastest attacks due to his Sharingan. I would argue it's fair to say HN3 Bee is probably Tier 5 as it requires another person of Tier 5 to evade his fastest attack, except when his opponent has a Sharingan. Similarly he defended himself well against the few attacks another Tier 5 opponent made against him. Unfortunately that's undermined somewhat by the fact Itachi wasn't ever attacking him with anything he knew Sasuke couldn't deal with.

In other words, due to a combination of his own high speed reactions sans Sharingan and the enhancement Sharingan gives, Sasuke can keep up with the highest speed tiers, the only exception being Raikage.



> Ah, well if you didn't my mistake than. Again though, that is not proven or even implied.



Not proven, but I would disagree concerning the implication. Pursuing this line of debate is probably not that helpful though, in finding common ground on the winner of a fight between Jiraiya and Itachi.



> Maybe, I would have to look back on it.



That'd be great s



> I mean maybe, its hard to say. Even if Jiraiya never did anything extreme he still got a 4.5, so its not as if he isn't in a high tier of speed. Minato would probably be given a 5, but the gap probably isn't that large.



True, true. Hype is a treacherous thing and it's all we have to go on concerning Minato's speed.



> To be fair his only real encounters were vs Oro, Itachi and Pain.....far from fodder. When he did face fodder he was at a bar drinking or had a tongue lick Ebisu



Again very true. This would explain why I couldn't remember him ever blitzing anyone: he's only ever fought people as fast as he is, or at least fast enough to keep up.



> Come on man, this seems pretty obvious to me. He didn't see him so he surrounded himself from all angles. Had another body seen him he could have focused the attack.
> 
> Are we really disagreeing on this?



, Sasuke's not exactly keepin up with his eyes, but Raikage's not blitzing him by so much he can hit him before Sasuke catches up. Had Sasuke had another body he could see through he'd have seen the same thing marginally quicker as he'd be looking at the whole scene; Raikage still would have disappeared from his sights. If the two bodies lacked the Sharingan, Sasuke wouldn't have even seen Raikage until after he got struck.



> Ma and Pa would most likely save him, but hes got his Hair defense which is already hard as steel, so may be tougher in Sage mode.



I'm not seeing what Ni Dai Sennin could do. If he's pumped up enough to blitz HM Jiraiya he's pumped up enough to tear through them with moderate difficulty. Hari Jizo's strong as still thing doesn't really mean much when Raikage's capable of smashing through Susanoo (albeit a weaker one) and creating huge craters by smashing people into things (note that was when he wasn't fully pumped up, his blows were stronger after he did this).



> We don't really know that, as Pain only ever saw him when he reappeared from other angles. From what we saw in direct counters Pain had no chance at defense. So even if he didn't quite escape their vision, it still shows great speed.



Exactly. We can't attribute those feats to pure speed, meaning he lacks comperable and reliable feats to compare to other extremely high speed characters. I'm not denying HM Jiraiya's got great speed, but he uses a combination of skill and obfuscation to supplement this (in the process potentially making himself more dangerous).



> I recognize it, but I don't give it the credit you do. You toss around the word blitz like it actually happens. NOBODY gets blitzed through sheer speed unless there is a tremendous gap. Juugo was able to react to Raikage, Kurenai was able to duck an Itachi attack etc....
> 
> Speed is big, but it can be stopped with superior taijutsu, weapon, defense, experience etc...
> 
> ...



I understand your analogy, but it doesn't do the Sharingan justice to say it's more or less like having the experience to know where a person will move. The Sharingan let's you see them make their moves before they actually make them. Regardless your experience, suddenly getting the ability to actually see exactly where the opponent will be in the next second or two would further allow you to anticipate your opponent's movements with experience.

And yes, although blitzes don't usually happen due to various other factors, it's clear the only reason Sasuke survived his face off with Raikage was because he has Susanoo active. HM Jiraiya lacks such a powerful and fast appearing defence.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 19, 2009)

> Yeah, assuming the ninja can't react in time.



That's exactly what I'm debating. Now what a Ninja can and can't react to is a different matter to the underlying principle of attacking before the opponent can even register you've made an attack and therefore cannot counter you. 

I'd still say only Itachi and Madara could dodge Raikage's top speed though (reacting to and dodging multiple blows...a bit more difficult), or react to it. HM Jiraiya could probably just about see him, but I heavily doubt he can actually defend himself.



> Another quick point:
> 
> Sasuke, and really anyone with it, lives on the Sharingan for this type of thing. So when it is nullified they are lost, as we saw with Sasuke.
> 
> ...



I'm not saying it's that important to survive. I'm saying having such an ability gives you an innate advantage over others.



> Sharingan didn't help him guess as it couldn't follow him, he more or less used common sense.



This is speculation. I'm not even sure Raikage fully escaped Sasuke's vision; he may simply have moved around behind him before he could turn his head.



> Yes, see him appear there and no where to focus his defense and/or offense as opposed to the Sharingan which became useless at that point.



Sasuke already basically did that in the manga. And he only kept up with Raikage's movements at this point thanks to his Sharingan.



> Jiraiya kicked Animal Realm later on before he could get a summon out. Other than that Pain was able to react based on shared vision the other times. Like the one in the smoke and then where Jiraiya tried the hair barrage.
> 
> Shared vision allowed Pain to see Jiraiya's attacks regardless of if Jiraiya was outside the Pain body he was attacking's field of vision.



So he's able to kick someone slower than himself. Again, the shared vision helps to avoid surprise attacks. The little bonus it gives to anticipating an attacking coming doesn't really come close to what the Sharingan gives you.



Now remember, this wasn't just Pain dropping down, he had full control on the ceiling and pushed off the other body to head towards Jiraiya.

Before when he was able to see Jiraiya from multiple angles he was able to get a summon out in time. Which was vs Jiraiya's self proclaimed fastest jutsu. 

Take what you will from it....there really aren't many examples based on how they fought. I mean, Jiraiya is a damn ninjutsu spamming bastard [/quote]

So yeah, this proves it gives an advantage in anticipating enemy attacks. Not exactly a large one however, as Animal Realm still came very close to successfully defending itself later even without backup vision.



> Hmm, so I have surpassed even my own predictions







> A straight up taijutsu exchange isn't really a surprise. A surprise would be Naruto hitting fatty with the Frog Fu shit. You dodge a punch and then end up dead



True. A surprise would also be using a smoke bomb and then trying to sneakily punch someone in the back of the head. Or appearing behind another guy and shooting hair needles at their back while a frog distracts them.



> See above. When someone is too fast for you they tend to appear in your blind spots. If you have those covered you will be more successful.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is generally better to have that ability, just in Sasuke's case, which you really can't argue. If his Sharingan became useless, why would having a different set of powers not help, especially if they gave him exactly what he needed?......Covered blind spots.



Because covering blind spots is meaningless if your eyes can't keep up with the opponent. It's like saying Gaara would've done better against Lee in the Chuunin prelims if he'd had the ability to see him from multiple angles. The outcome would have been the same. Sasuke even kept up relatively well due to his Sharingan anyway. Without his Sharingan he'd have been screwed though.



> Well, take it how you will. I guess most feats aren't that amazing if we don't want them to be



Considering Pain's greatest speed feat is...um...running at Jiraiya? Rocket boots Asura? The epic falling with style of Human Realm? Nothing that amazing really and no stats to back anything up either. If we knew the bodies had a speed of 4.5 then I'd say it's pretty good and puts him in Tier 5 almost beyond reproach, but we haven't really got anything much to go off.



> Yeah, if they can keep it constantly changing. I am not saying they can for sure, just that they may be able to based on the whole senjutsu thing.
> 
> I assume you can't catch and control a constantly changing chakra.
> 
> I still wonder too if having sage chakra (being stronger than normal) would help prevent genjutsu as well.



You need to , not just have it changing. Even then, there's not really anything implying the chakra's constantly changing any more than normal chakra. There's also little to nothing implying stronger chakra=better chakra defence.

If the Ni Dai Sennin weren't there to manually break Jiraiya out of Genjutsu via the partner method there's no reason to believe Itachi couldn't catch him with it.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 19, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> And if we can't quantify them then there's no reason for us to say they're at a significantly higher level. A higher level clearly, as it gives a boost of some sort, but without knowing what it is it is foolish to simply assume it's as large as you imply.



Indeed. But its no different than you assuming Raikage is way faster than Jiraiya.



> Sasuke nearly blitzed Deidara, someone in his own speed tier, twice. Jiraiya has managed to...um...



Blitz Pain twice, someone most likely on his speed tier 



> I think you get my point here. Without feats to counter Sasuke's, I would say it's fair to make a stab at Sasuke being the faster of the two.


 
Sure, you can make the stab, but I disagree. I am not saying you are crazy or anything, just a difference of opinion.



> Experience helps use that basic raw reaction time better, but does not physically enhance it.



Well yeah, but you don't need it physically enhanced if you already know where and how to react.



> I would argue it's delusional to think anyone without a Sharingan is going to have better reactions than someone with a Sharingan if they're in the same speed tier.



I wouldn't. Again, experience my friend. If you are young Sharingan gives you a head start without needing the experience, but it doesn't cover for 50 years worth of battles.



> Just look at Kakashi and Zabuza.



You are comparing someone weaker than Jiraiya though. Jiraiya is in the same speed tier as Kakashi and he would man handle Zabuza, Sharingan or not.



> I would argue Sasuke didn't have trouble with his opponent's speeds, but their level of skill.



I am not sure but I think this just furthers my point about speed not being everything and experience meaning just as much. While Sasuke was physically capable, he simply didn't know how to use his capabilities. I would argue even someone like Tsunade would do better because of her 5 in taijutsu and years of experience.....I mean she wouldn't win or anything, simply manage better defensively.



> I would argue it's fair to say HN3 Bee is probably Tier 5 as it requires another person of Tier 5 to evade his fastest attack, except when his opponent has a Sharingan.



I disagree with what is required. As Sasuke stated his movements were very linear. High level nin wouldn't have much of a problem with KN3 Bee as far as handling his speed. 



> Raikage still would have disappeared from his sights. If the two bodies lacked the Sharingan, Sasuke wouldn't have even seen Raikage until after he got struck.



I am still not convinced. Sasuke saw Raikage too late when trying to follow with the Sharingan and as Raikage was bringing his attack is when Sasuke finally decided to look back.

If there were another set of eyes they see the very point Raikage arrives before the attack begins. There are no wasted seconds or fractions of Sasuke turning his head and all that.



> I'm not seeing what Ni Dai Sennin could do. If he's pumped up enough to blitz HM Jiraiya he's pumped up enough to tear through them with moderate difficulty.



Senjutsu tongue lashings, a Futon to the face etc...Anything defensively to potentially throw them off. We don't know how successful it would be because we didn't see Raikage take a hit from anyone, but its an option.



> Exactly. We can't attribute those feats to pure speed, meaning he lacks comperable and reliable feats to compare to other extremely high speed characters.



I don't think we have much of an argument as all I am saying is that he has the capabilities to pull it off based on what we saw from Raikage.

1. Raikage base speed was blocked by Juugo, something I don't think he would be capable of vs SM Jiraiya. 

So from this point I conclude SM Jiraiya is faster than base Raikage....not sure by what margin, but probably a pretty nice gap.

2. SS2 Raikage was commented on about his reflexes, which I don't really even know where to begin to compare because more people haven't needed to use reflexes like that.

3. His speed was commented on as well, but what did he actually do? Just a Shunshin, which makes any ninja disappear from sight. I think the actual dodging of Amaterasu is more attributed to reflexes than speed, which again, I don't know how to even begin comparing.

4. It was noted he kept his chakra levels high and had lots of it. Jiraiya not only has lots of it, but his chakra is stronger further enhancing everything about him......even his facial hair 

So is it really a stretch to think he is capable of such a thing? I think our misunderstanding is that you think I am arguing Jiraiya is constantly as fast as Raikage, which I am not. I would say SS2 Raikage holds the speed advantage, but as far as him prepping the Shunshin for Amaterasu, I see no reason Jiraiya isn't capable of the very same thing based off of what we know and what was said.



> I understand your analogy, but it doesn't do the Sharingan justice to say it's more or less like having the experience to know where a person will move. The Sharingan let's you see them make their moves before they actually make them.



I agree with your point but then still there is a missing piece. Let me think of a good way to put this: You can see the things before they happen, but its what you do with that knowledge that is what really counts. Like you can see a punch coming, but do you block it, dodge it or counter it? 1 may be far more effective than the other. Its things like this I am talking about.

Like Sasuke tried to kick Bee and actually fight him in taijutsu. IRL if I see a big ass black dude carrying 7 swords I am not attempting anything at all within 10 yards.....because I know better. 



> I'd still say only Itachi and Madara could dodge Raikage's top speed though (reacting to and dodging multiple blows...a bit more difficult), or react to it. HM Jiraiya could probably just about see him, but I heavily doubt he can actually defend himself.



See, I think they could all manage to at least avoid and initial or fatal blow. A constant assault would render them all dead....most likely. Madara has his hax shit though.

Again, its not about seeing them anyway, but knowing what to do if you can't see them. In Jiraiya's case he could just surround himself with Yomi Numa or summon a frog at his back. 

Itachi could shroud himself in crows....if they are always on him.



> This is speculation. I'm not even sure Raikage fully escaped Sasuke's vision; he may simply have moved around behind him before he could turn his head.



I thought they said he escaped its vision.



> Sasuke already basically did that in the manga. And he only kept up with Raikage's movements at this point thanks to his Sharingan.



He surrounded his entire body. I am talking about like he did vs the leg drop and focusing Amaterasu to attack a certain area.



> Because covering blind spots is meaningless if your eyes can't keep up with the opponent.



I don't get how you can say this. We saw it proven in the Pain fight. He saw Jiraiya appear in the blind spots and was able to defend because of it. Take that away and he gets punched in the back of the head. 



> You need to stop your chakra flow, not just have it changing.



That is once you are caught. I am talking about before.



> Even then, there's not really anything implying the chakra's constantly changing any more than normal chakra.



I am talking about them willingly keeping it changing.



> There's also little to nothing implying stronger chakra=better chakra defence.



Admitted speculation on my part. It enhances everything else and it seems logical that having to take over something stronger than you normally would is harder to do.


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 19, 2009)

> It is more or less me making correction to a bunch of erroneous statements.



Aren't you the one claiming that Susanoo is a summon? Have you even read the databook entry on Susanoo?



Cyphon said:


> I will say it one more time and then I will let you continue to chase your tail. YOMI NUMA SUBMERGES THE PERSON. The Suiton jutsu lets you stand on it its just your feet are stuck. So you could still send chakra and have something to push off of. In the swamp you are SUBMERGED. So if you send chakra to your feet it wont do anything.



I'll make this as simple as possible since you're having difficulty grasping what I've been stating. 

Chakra allows you to stay stay afloat or stick to any surface. You constantly expel chakra from your hands/feet/body to do this. During the VotE fight, Naruto was submerged in water up to his neck. He climbed out by sending chakra to his hands to get a firm grip, sent out chakra from his arms and elbows to drag himself up, then sent chakra to his legs and knees to pull his feet out, and sent chakra to his feet to stand on the water again. Susanoo is made up of materialized chakra surrounding Itachi that is constantly being expelled to maintain the form. You've provided no logical reason why Itachi is going to sink while Susanoo's chakra is around him and why he isn't going to get out when he has massive chakra hands readily available.



> In the end it doesn't matter. Even if they could get out that is just the thing, they are focused on that meaning Jiraiya kills them anyway.



I didn't realize fanfic material could be used as a rebuttal  In the end Jiriya would still need to bypass the shield and Susanoo chakra shield to attack Itachi.



> And again, nothing has been proven to work on Yomi Numa.



No, but what I've stated has been proven and being applied logically. 



> See above. Nothing has been shown to work. You don't think Pain can send chakra to his hands and feet?



See above. Not only that, but when he was initially submerged he barely sank up to his elbows and knees. Several panels later and he still hadn't sunk any further than he initially did. If he was standing that means he would have sank up to his knees and his hands would have been free. But I believe I already mentioned that in the position he was in, he wasn't able to do anything. 



> 1. The chakra has to be focused and kept even specifically for you to be able to walk on water.



No. You only need to expel enough chakra to sustain your own weight. Kyuubi Naruto demonstrated that even if you're giving off massive amounts of chakra you still stay afloat. 



> 2. We don't know if Susanoo even covers him from below.



True, however I'm assuming it does because when the chakra is materializing, parts of Susanoo are below the ground before coming up. 



> Only if it can place the shield down before Yomi Numa happens. Then it could only (possibly) cancel that parts that Itachi isn't stuck in.



Please explain why the shield is only canceling parts of the jutsu and not the entire jutsu? 





> A spiritual shield that does not possess a physical form. It has all the "Seishitsu Henka" (Element modifying ability) capabilities and can nullify all jutsu by changing its own elemental nature accordingly.



The whole swamp is the jutsu, it takes on it's element and nullifies it, Yomi Numa isn't a special exception.



> Most likely not.



More baseless rebuttals  see second paragraph.



> Again you missed the point, which you seem to do a lot. Please try to focus so I don't have to repeat myself.





> I am talking about the jutsu itself being the only Doton jutsu that works as it does. Every other jutsu tends to appear right near the user with the only possible exception being Yamato.....and I can't remember if he does anything like that or not with just Doton.
> 
> I didn't say nobody else could learn it.



Did i state you did? Like I said, Jiraiya was relatively close to where the jutsu was used.



> Giving you an appropriate label is not name calling. You are classified (along with many others) by most of the forums as such. Just as some would call me a Jiraiya tard.



I'm a fantard for providing facts that are backed by the manga and databook? Ok  In the context you used it in, it was meant as an insult, which would fall under name calling.
 you're the first person to ever call me an Itachi tard, and yet the majority of the forums has somehow classified me as such. This is priceless 



> Seeing seals lets you know the element of the jutsu and nothing else. His hands being placed on the ground let you know that the technique should come from the ground. Whereas some Doton's come from the users mouth or simply out of his hands while not touching the ground.



Exactly, the handseals give away that it is an earth jutsu and every earth jutsu uses the ground to be executed. 



> Again, within a very close proximity.



The space wasn't any futher than when Jiraiya used Yomi Numa against Pain. The point was that Kakashi chose to make it appear behind Pain.



> Its hard to tell but it doesn't look like he is close to the ground at all here. The one vs Pain he was on the ground and made it appear on the ceiling. Pretty hax.



In the panel before he uses it, he is at the same level as the snake and falling. In the following panel, as you can see, the snake's head isn't that far off from the ground where Jiraiya was.

I checked later chapters but they don't give a better angle until when Manda is summoned and by then the fodder snake has Bunta sitting on it 



> He could if he knew it was coming, but he wont.



He doesn't need to know it's coming, Jiraiya can use the jutsu and if it works, Itachi can use the shield to nullify it.



> No. It will work on Susanoo or Itachi and never hit the shield because it comes from the ground.
> 
> Again, I am begging you to please take your time to understand my points before you respond. Its like we are discussing 2 different arguments for no
> reason or maybe you just like to change my words.



Did you read what I posted? 





> The shield isn't somthing stationary, unless you're uder the impression that he can't aim the shield at the ground and cancel the ninjutsu.





As you can see, Itachi move the shield and half of it is underground. If he was submerged. It would be just as easy to move the shield below and let the shield work it's magic.

Maybe we should simplify this. It's a canon fact that the shield will take on the properties of any jutsu and nullify it. Swamp of the Underworld won't work on Susanoo when it can be countered by using the mirror. I hope that's simple enough to understand.


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## Cyphon (Oct 19, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Chakra allows you to stay stay afloat or stick to any surface. You constantly expel chakra from your hands/feet/body to do this.



This was already covered. Move on please.



> During the VotE fight, Naruto was submerged in water up to his neck. He climbed out by sending chakra to his hands to get a firm grip, sent out chakra from his arms and elbows to drag himself up, then sent chakra to his legs and knees to pull his feet out, and sent chakra to his feet to stand on the water again.



Yeah, but the water didn't have chakra in it designed to hold him there.



> Susanoo is made up of materialized chakra surrounding Itachi that is constantly being expelled to maintain the form.



Its no different than a Summon or a Bijuu. They are all big forms made of chakra. It doesn't keep them from sinking unless they expel chakra like a normal ninja to stay afloat.



> You've provided no logical reason why Itachi is going to sink while Susanoo's chakra is around him and why he isn't going to get out when he has massive chakra hands readily available.



See above. Plus we don't know if Susanoo protects him from below.



> No, but what I've stated has been proven and being applied logically.



You have shown me people standing on water, not a chakra infused swamp once they are stuck in it.



> Please explain why the shield is only canceling parts of the jutsu and not the entire jutsu?



It has to touch the jutsu to cancel it. If there are parts it can't touch then that part wouldn't be canceled. Its like if you used a Katon bigger than Susanoo itself, it would nullify all of the Katon hat hit the shield but the rest would shoot past or around it. 



> More baseless rebuttals  see second paragraph.



That you have yet to rebut properly.



> Like I said, Jiraiya was relatively close to where the jutsu was used.



He wasn't close compared to the other jutsu we have seen used. 



> I'm a fantard for providing facts that are backed by the manga and databook?



I never said that and you haven't really done that.



> Exactly, the handseals give away that it is an earth jutsu and every earth jutsu uses the ground to be executed.






Wrong again. You know, this is becoming pointless. I am having to tell you basic things that I shouldn't be wasting my time with. These things are common knowledge and I don't feel like rebutting you anymore if you don't even know the basics.

Sorry if you wished to continue you can PM me or something.


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## killer455 (Oct 20, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Wrong again. You know, this is becoming pointless. I am having to tell you basic things that I shouldn't be wasting my time with. These things are common knowledge and I don't feel like rebutting you anymore if you don't even know the basics.



handseals hidden under the clothes?

handseal too quick and short to adequately counter?

did you forgot about the sharingan predicting the handseal action before it happens?


anyway you are right, it won't matter cuz: [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYuBt6o3PME[/YOUTUBE]

Yomi Noma, Killing GALACTUS and other Celestial Cosmic-Levels since 2002.

fear the powah of the *J-man*


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 20, 2009)

I can't believe that people are comming up with the counter argument that applying chakra to your feel will stop Yomi Numa.


 Human realm jumps to the ceiling, and is hanging form the ceiling. You know in order to stand on the ceiling you need *to apply chakra in your feet.*


Yet, on that  he was swamped and was stuck. In the swamp regardless of weather he applied chakra to his feet. Not only that it was *against gravity* the swamp was upside down *on a ceiling.*
Just listen to that statement. If Jiraiya had never shown SotU could be use in such a way. No one could sugest it to be used like that. Regardless of the gravitational pull was against the swamp, and yet still human realm was being pulled towards the ground.





Tell me how the fuck is Itachi going to survive or avoid that.



Jiraiya only needs only one hand to beat Itachi. If Itachi comes close ot Jiraiya, Jiraiya can fuck him up in his toad gourd barrier. Which not even the Rin 'nengan can detect.


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## Cyphon (Oct 20, 2009)

killer455 said:


> handseals hidden under the clothes?
> 
> handseal too quick and short to adequately counter?
> 
> did you forgot about the sharingan predicting the handseal action before it happens?



What you even talking about?

The CA said that all Earth jutsu come from the ground. I was proving him wrong. 

What exactly is it you are bringing up?


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 20, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> What you even talking about?
> 
> The CA said that all Earth jutsu come from the ground. I was proving him wrong.
> 
> What exactly is it you are bringing up?



I think he is saying Handseals that are too short, Are more difficulty to read and copy. And handsealless jutsu are impossible to predict.


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## SM00TH38 (Oct 20, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> I wouldn't. Again, experience my friend. If you are young Sharingan gives you a head start without needing the experience, but it doesn't cover for 50 years worth of battles.




you rely too much on exp.....in this manga talent >>>>> exp.  naruto vs kakuzu come to mind. explain that? hell every fight that the rookies had were against ppl with more exp.  sasuke vs Oro..... itachi vs Oro.... deidara vs sasuke...



Cyphon said:


> This was already covered. Move on please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it is a different because susano is the ninjustu..its not some summon or a bijuu



[/QUOTE]See above. Plus we don't know if Susanoo protects him from below.



You have shown me people standing on water, not a chakra infused swamp once they are stuck in it.



It has to touch the jutsu to cancel it. If there are parts it can't touch then that part wouldn't be canceled. Its like if you used a Katon bigger than Susanoo itself, it would nullify all of the Katon hat hit the shield but the rest would shoot past or around it..[/QUOTE]  

as shown with sasuke , susano'o itself has defensive tanking abilities. not to mention that the shield is magical. so trying to use real world logic is worthless. you think that the shield has to be solid and form a real like shield to cancal a justu. but the reality is that its a shapeless object that only has to cancel the effects of whatever justu is being used against it


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 20, 2009)

Hey I was wondering how hard are those of Moubokuzan Mountains.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 20, 2009)

SM00TH38 said:


> you rely too much on exp.....in this manga talent >>>>> exp.  naruto vs kakuzu come to mind. explain that? hell every fight that the rookies had were against ppl with more exp.  sasuke vs Oro..... itachi vs Oro.... deidara vs sasuke...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If Itachi is standing on the ground he will be swamped.
Heck even if he is standing on the ceiling he is going to get swamped.


As shown in my earlier post.



And in this BD Experience > Talent. PnJ does not count.


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## Cyphon (Oct 20, 2009)

SM00TH38 said:


> you rely too much on exp.....in this manga talent >>>>> exp.  naruto vs kakuzu come to mind. explain that?



Plot to show Naruto's new power up. Kakuzu had already been in a long drawn out battle and lost 2 of his 5 hearts and Naruto was able to take out 2 by himself.....so he didn't exactly do anything all that impressive.

And Kakuzu actually played his cards right, Naruto is just very unpredictable. Obviously there are exceptions to the rules, but this still only slightly applies to what I am talking about.



> sasuke vs Oro.....



Oro was dying + Sasuke didn't actually win a fight. Oro just couldn't take over Sasuke's mind. Really nothing to do with what I am talking about.



> itachi vs Oro....



Again, not a scenario in which I am talking about.



> deidara vs sasuke...



Deidara is only 19 



> it is a different because susano is the ninjustu..its not some summon or a bijuu



I don't see how that matters if it is still present in a solid body. Take the fat guys jutsu we just saw recently. His ninjutsu is a stone golem. Would it no be affected because it is a ninjutsu?



> as shown with sasuke , susano'o itself has defensive tanking abilities. not to mention that the shield is magical.



Susanoo being able to tank jutsu doesn't stop it from sinking.


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## SM00TH38 (Oct 20, 2009)

....omg, ok you say SotU is designed to trap stuff correct???  Susano'o is designed to negate all attacks, correct??? and in the shield, doesnt it seem like SotU would fail??? plz realize that the shield and susano are not, *I REPEAT...ARE NOT PHYSICAL OBJECTS * the shield itself is magical, and susano can be reformed to what ever size is needed... look at sasuke saving karin

do me a favor and answer this in 3 word or less, based off the OP with no knowledge of eache other who would win


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 20, 2009)

SM00TH38 said:


> ....omg, ok you say SotU is designed to trap stuff correct???  Susano'o is designed to negate all attacks, correct??? and in the shield, doesnt it seem like SotU would fail??? plz realize that the shield and susano are not, *I REPEAT...ARE NOT PHYSICAL OBJECTS * the shield itself is magical, and susano can be reformed to what ever size is needed... look at sasuke saving karin
> 
> do me a favor and answer this in 3 word or less, based off the OP with no knowledge of eache other who would win





Simple Jiraiya. 



Itachi is cocky enough to try the same stunt he tried to pull of against Orochimaru.


And then






And yes, that is what will be both IC and is* very likely* to happen if those two faced off.

Get it through your head Itachi cannot win against Jiraiya.


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## killer455 (Oct 20, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Itachi is cocky enough to try.......................



cocky is not part of itachi's personality, raw power-levels is not something he believes in, he believes in unfortunate match-ups, it just happend that orochimaru's tactics (and even some of his powers) happend to have an juicy weakspot in relation to his own abilities/power-sets.

a bloodlusted, unrelenting HM-Turbo Jirayia will win no doubt about it.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 20, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Indeed. But its no different than you assuming Raikage is way faster than Jiraiya.



Except Raikage's got the feats to back up such a claim (well, when using his top speed he does).



> Blitz Pain twice, someone most likely on his speed tier



Except in both cases Jiraiya just made an attack that his opponent's failed to block (he didn't escape their sight), meaning in both cases skill would probably have been involved. Sasuke escaped Deidara's sight twice and Deidara evaded him by luck and what amounts to the ol' Doom/Quake (I foget which) RPG explosion jump trick. The difference in speed between Sasuke and Deidara is comperable to the difference between Raikage at full speed and Sasuke.



> Sure, you can make the stab, but I disagree. I am not saying you are crazy or anything, just a difference of opinion.



Ok then. Do you have anything to try and disprove my argument though? 



> Well yeah, but you don't need it physically enhanced if you already know where and how to react.



There's a difference between need and it being useful. Given the Sharingan Jiraiya would benefit immensely, possibly even more than Sasuke as it allows him to use his wealth of skill and experience to greater effect.



> I wouldn't. Again, experience my friend. If you are young Sharingan gives you a head start without needing the experience, but it doesn't cover for 50 years worth of battles.



And again, experience isn't the same as reactions. It's a seperate factor entirely. The Sharingan directly enhances reactions but does little for one's experience. Everyone would benefit enormously from having a Sharingan, especially those who already have great experience like Jiraiya.



> You are comparing someone weaker than Jiraiya though. Jiraiya is in the same speed tier as Kakashi and he would man handle Zabuza, Sharingan or not.



You're jumping the gun there a little. I'm just pointing out the boon a Sharingan gives you when you face someone who's otherwise a solid match/slightly outmatches you. Let's compare Kakashi Vs Zabuza to Itachi Vs HM Jiraiya.

Kakashi Vs Zabuza: Even speed stat, even Taijutsu skill stat, Zabuza had a superior weapon. Without Sharingan Kakashi was just about being beaten, with it he was bitchslapping his opponent around.
Itachi Vs HM Jiraiya: Even speed stat, even skill stat, Jiraiya has superior strength stat. Without a Sharingan it's fair to say Itachi's going to keep up with Jiraiya and evade his attacks, blocking them if he has to (but still being injured of course). With a Sharingan he'd get that boost and be able to evade Taijutsu attacks with, well, ease, in the same way Kakashi did to Zabuza. If he counter attacks as Kakashi did, all he has to do is have a kunai in his hand and he can still injure Jiraiya despite his opponent's impressive durability and strength.



> I am not sure but I think this just furthers my point about speed not being everything and experience meaning just as much. While Sasuke was physically capable, he simply didn't know how to use his capabilities. I would argue even someone like Tsunade would do better because of her 5 in taijutsu and years of experience.....I mean she wouldn't win or anything, simply manage better defensively.



Tsunade wouldn't keep up because she hasn't shown she can react to such speeds. I argue speed is theoretically the most important aspect of close combat in fiction where super speed exists, but in practice, in Naruto particularly, there are very few speed gaps large enough for it to be so important. It's one of a number of important aspects. 

In this battle, Itachi's base reactions are going to be comperable to HM Jiraiya's and his skill level is too. Jiraiya's superior strength means that he has the slight advantage as all he has to do is keep attacking Itachi in clsoe combat and he'll injure him even if he blocks the attack. Jiraiya's in the same boat though as Itachi can do the same with a kunai, making his strength disadvantage less of a big deal. But introduce another factor, one that hugely enhances Itachi's reactions, and the battle goes into his favour. It renders their speed equivalency meaningless and shatters their comparable reactions as Itachi can now see Jiraiya moving in slow motion and see what he's about to do before he does it.

And, as you rightfully say, skill being the important factor it is, Itachi can thus use his comperable skill, buffed by superior reactions, to avoid being hit or grabbed and in the process screw Jiraiya up by stabbing him with a kunai or two. Thus, I feel Itachi is actually at the advantage when they face off in Taijutsu.



> I disagree with what is required. As Sasuke stated his movements were very linear. High level nin wouldn't have much of a problem with KN3 Bee as far as handling his speed.



Sasuke is basically saying there that because of Bee's type of movement, and thanks to his Sharingan keeping up, he can evade him. If you don't have a minimum of 4.5 reactions+Sharingan or Tier 5 reactions, you're probably not dodging it. Especially as before Sasuke only Raikage (who's pretty much a certified Tier 5 guy) ever managed to pull it off. The combination of these two pieces of evidence implies to me what the basic requirements of evading or countering or even anticipating the attack and being able to do anything about it is: Tier 5 reactions.

A more tangible comparison now. Juugo is barely able to react to Rari Atto coming at him from a huge distance, and is similarly barely able to react to SSJ1 Raikage?s first punch. Combined with the fact it took Sasuke his Sharingan to help him evade the attack and only Raikage ever did it before him and the fact he?s got a feat that?s pretty comparable to Raikage?s and I would argue you need extremely high reactions, on par with Tier 4.5 at least, to evade such an attack.



> I am still not convinced. Sasuke saw Raikage too late when trying to follow with the Sharingan and as Raikage was bringing his attack is when Sasuke finally decided to look back.
> 
> If there were another set of eyes they see the very point Raikage arrives before the attack begins. There are no wasted seconds or fractions of Sasuke turning his head and all that.



And the Sharingan?s reactions enhancement is the only reason Sasuke even saw him in time to bring up the Amaterasu defence. Without that Sasuke would?ve been struck.



> Senjutsu tongue lashings, a Futon to the face etc...Anything defensively to potentially throw them off. We don't know how successful it would be because we didn't see Raikage take a hit from anyone, but its an option.



Minimum to pierce Raikage?s shroud at that level is something with Chidori?s piercing power. Tongues and Fuutons of that level aren?t going to get through.

Sure Fuutons have the advantage here, but they?ve not been shown to be that strong.



> I don't think we have much of an argument as all I am saying is that he has the capabilities to pull it off based on what we saw from Raikage.
> 
> 1. Raikage base speed was blocked by Juugo, something I don't think he would be capable of vs SM Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



1. We disagree here. I see no reason to believe Juugo can?t evade or block SM Jiraiya. He?s managed to just about evade Rari Atto at a considerable distance and managed to block SSJ1 Raikage, both being very fast attacks.

2. The real issue here is that his reflexes are at the same level as Minato?s. This means little to us as we don?t really have any idea beyond hype what level Minato?s was.

3. He evaded the sight of a Sharingan user. Only Itachi?s hands have ever done that before. There?s no real reason to doubt this as anything other than the highest speed feat in the manga.

4. Hmm?but who?s is more manly? Raikage?s or Jiraiya?s 

I feel that Jiraiya?s not shown the speed feats to pull such a thing off. He?s shown superior speed to Pain, but always when aided by things like obscured vision on Pain?s part as well as his own high level of skill. Raikage outright moved too fast for Sasuke to see. Jiraiya didn?t even move too fast for Pain to see. If he had then I?d consider it more seriously, but as he didn?t I don?t see why we should.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 20, 2009)

> I agree with your point but then still there is a missing piece. Let me think of a good way to put this: You can see the things before they happen, but its what you do with that knowledge that is what really counts. Like you can see a punch coming, but do you block it, dodge it or counter it? 1 may be far more effective than the other. Its things like this I am talking about.
> 
> Like Sasuke tried to kick Bee and actually fight him in taijutsu. IRL if I see a big ass black dude carrying 7 swords I am not attempting anything at all within 10 yards.....because I know better.



I understand and agree with your point here. I think Im saying the same thing you are, but in a different way. Experience (and intelligence) would mean you can choose whats likely to be the most effective counter to the attack you can see coming before its happened thanks to your Sharingan. 

Taking this to the HM Jiraiya Vs Itachi situation, Itachi might see Jiraiya make a punch before he actually does it, then consider if dodging would be the best idea, catching, or blocking it. Being clever, hed probably come to the conclusion itd be best to evade the attack or maybe put a kunai in the way so Jiraiya uses all his strength to punch his fist into it. Of course, seeing Itachis movements Jiraiya will probably be able to guess at what hes planning thanks to his skill in Taijutsu and experience fighting. 

But then, Itachi will see Jiraiya trying to change the angle of his punch to avoid Itachis counter and already have moved his kunai in the way. Now, bringing Itachis skill and experience in, he might plan all this out from the start of the hypothetical punch throwing so that he can get Jiraiya into the opportune position for him to be thrown or tripped, or counter attacked from a blindspot or something.

Thats just an example, but the Sharingan does give Itachi a considerable advantage in the hand to hand combat stakes here.



> See, I think they could all manage to at least avoid and initial or fatal blow. A constant assault would render them all dead....most likely. Madara has his hax shit though.
> 
> Again, its not about seeing them anyway, but knowing what to do if you can't see them. In Jiraiya's case he could just surround himself with Yomi Numa or summon a frog at his back.
> 
> Itachi could shroud himself in crows....if they are always on him.



I can see Itachi realising this Taijutsu scuffles a silly idea and using the fabled art of run to escape it, possibly leaving a KB to get in Raikages way in the process, or Tsukuyomiing him down.

Im not seeing how Jiraiya would do such a thing facing Raikage if he cant keep up with Raikages attacks. Its like saying I can put a shield between me and a bullet despite me not being able to see the bullet shoot through the air.



> I thought they said he escaped its vision.



They might have, but I find the fact that Sasuke seemed to know exactly where Raikage was suspect. I could be wrong of course, he mightve just realised there was a huge scary man who just ran around behind him.



> He surrounded his entire body. I am talking about like he did vs the leg drop and focusing Amaterasu to attack a certain area.



Raikage was moving far slower there. Being airborne he couldnt push off anything and therefore is limited to the rate at which gravity pulls him to the ground.



> I don't get how you can say this. We saw it proven in the Pain fight. He saw Jiraiya appear in the blind spots and was able to defend because of it. Take that away and he gets punched in the back of the head.



Take the smoke bomb away and Jiraiya doesnt necessarily get around behind Human Realm. Take the distraction frog away and Animal Realm doesnt necessarily need to be helped by Hungry Ghosts vision and might see Jiraiya move around behind him too.

Thats how I can say this. Jiraiya didnt ever do it with his pure speed, so I cant count these feats as examples of him moving tremendously fast.



> That is once you are caught. I am talking about before.



And when did anything ever imply this? Logically your chakra flow changes all the time as youre using it in various ways by say, pumping an amount into your chest before you use a Katon, or pumping it out your body so you can form a mass of water the shape of a shark and make it go smash into someone.



> I am talking about them willingly keeping it changing.



Again, nothing implying this is any more than normal levels of change.



> Admitted speculation on my part. It enhances everything else and it seems logical that having to take over something stronger than you normally would is harder to do.



Perhaps it is easier to keep control of it, perhaps its harder to control it due to the fact its composed of a third energy type that you dont normally use. Until we get something to back this up, such a topics really more suited for the Library as a discussion of theory rather than in a discussion where were pretty much forced to go by what the manga shows us.



Dariustwinblade said:


> I can't believe that people are comming up with the counter argument that applying chakra to your feel will stop Yomi Numa.
> 
> 
> Human realm jumps to the ceiling, and is hanging form the ceiling. You know in order to stand on the ceiling you need *to apply chakra in your feet.*
> ...


You should look up the difference between water walking and sticking to surfaces. Water Walking involves regulating your chakra and constantly expelling it at a certain rate. Sticking to surfaces requires you to build up a certain amount of chakra. See  for Ebisus simple to understand explanation.

Human Realm wasnt using the water walking technique when he landed on the ceiling, so we dont know if it would have worked or not.

The only reason Im not arguing itll work is because it seems like a massive flaw in the jutsu. Whats the point of such a powerful A rank jutsu if someone can just walk over it? 



Dariustwinblade said:


> Simple Jiraiya.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Except Itachi will realise when his Genjutsus broken, and Jiraiya has to first get him into the frog before he can dunk him in the acid. Which he can still walk on anyway.

It will be difficult for one with such limited comprehension, but in time you will understand that Jiraiya cannot win against Itachi.


----------



## Cursed Avenger (Oct 20, 2009)

I read through your post and it gave me a good laugh. You reply to everything I've said except this.



> As you can see, Itachi move the shield and half of it is underground. If he was submerged. It would be just as easy to move the shield below and let the shield work it's magic.
> 
> Maybe we should simplify this. It's a canon fact that the shield will take on the properties of any jutsu and nullify it. Swamp of the Underworld won't work on Susanoo when it can be countered by using the mirror. I hope that's simple enough to understand.



Ironic how you left this out this part out of your reply. I posted it again since it's unbiased fact that whatever jutsu is used it negated by using the shield.


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## the box (Oct 20, 2009)

virgil 

shorten you post tl;dr


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 20, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Except in both cases Jiraiya just made an attack that his opponent's failed to block (he didn't escape their sight), meaning in both cases skill would probably have been involved.



How do you know he didn't escape their sight? I mean the first Pain (who is actually a close range body) surely has plenty of skill in that area and he didn't even move his hands at all.



> Ok then. Do you have anything to try and disprove my argument though?



No, but again, that is why I am not putting up a big fuss about it. We are talking about 2 people in the same speed tier, but 2 different fighters. Jiraiya is a ranged ninjutsu fighter, but that doesn't mean his speed doesn't exist, merely that he really doesn't need it. 

Sasuke needs it and thus uses it a lot, so obviously more will be said about his speed.



> There's a difference between need and it being useful.



Agreed.



> Everyone would benefit enormously from having a Sharingan, especially those who already have great experience like Jiraiya.



Agreed.



> Without a Sharingan it's fair to say Itachi's going to keep up with Jiraiya and evade his attacks, blocking them if he has to (but still being injured of course).



Disagree here. Unless we are talking about an Itachi who never had Sharingan. If we are talking about actual Itachi simply not activating it he gets beaten badly.



> With a Sharingan he'd get that boost and be able to evade Taijutsu attacks with, well, ease, in the same way Kakashi did to Zabuza.



Again, I see no ease part. Itachi vs SM Jiraiya close range results in a draw IMO, with an edge to Jiraiya, but that certainly doesn't imply ease.



> Tsunade wouldn't keep up because she hasn't shown she can react to such speeds.



Yeah, but you can't just assume a Hokage level nin can't fight back because well.....Kishi hates women. Just because she has feats doesn't mean they are not there.

Obviously I am not going to sit here and argue she is as fast as Raikage, but through experience and her top tier taijutsu skill as well as (more or less) known defensive practice, I think she could do okay.



> Jiraiya's in the same boat though as Itachi can do the same with a kunai, making his strength disadvantage less of a big deal.



Jiraiya can just use a kunai as well though. 



> Especially as before Sasuke only Raikage (who's pretty much a certified Tier 5 guy) ever managed to pull it off.



To be fair here who would Bee really have been fighting? He's not supposed to leave the village and I doubt they get to him on a regular basis. 

Not saying it doesn't man something, just that Raikage is probably the only real option.

So yeah, he is fast, no doubt.



> And the Sharingans reactions enhancement is the only reason Sasuke even saw him in time to bring up the Amaterasu defence. Without that Sasuke wouldve been struck.



Here is where we have a misstep. I am pretty sure he brought it up because he didn't know where he was so he simply protected his whole body. I think Karin even said something along those lines.

So my argument is that even if 2 sets of eyes couldn't follow, the extra set would still see him appear a long time before the original set would.



> Minimum to pierce Raikages shroud at that level is something with Chidoris piercing power. Tongues and Fuutons of that level arent going to get through.



I was more referring to changing his focus, blocking his vision or tripping him up in some way.



> Sure Fuutons have the advantage here, but theyve not been shown to be that strong.



I don't think there is really an argument as Futon beats Raiton, so it may simply nullify the shield. 

You may be right that if there is such a gap that an inferior element can win out, but we don't really know the power of the Futon to gauge it.



> 4. Hmmbut whos is more manly? Raikages or Jiraiyas



A tie 



> Raikage outright moved too fast for Sasuke to see.



I think we are getting closer to what I wanted here, so let me try again based off of this point.

1. Raikage moved too fast for Sasuke to see *once*. This happened when he spiked his chakra levels and all that and was prepared to use something _super_ to nullify MS.

2. Now consider for a moment that Jiraiya too has tons of chakra and even chakra that is stronger than just any old run of the mill chakra, thus enhancing his ninjutsu.

3. We know Shunshin is a ninjutsu and we know that is what Raikage did to avoid the attack.....possibly enhanced by spiked chakra levels.

4. Now put Jiraiya in Raikage's shoes. I am saying the same mind set that he knows about the MS and/or wants to stay out of sight.

All I am saying is isn't it possible for Jiraiya to spike his chakra levels to enormous amounts while also having stronger chakra and do a "super" shunshin?

In the end that is what Raikage did, and I don't see why Jiraiya couldn't. Again before responding, consider that by Raikage doing that, it was the only time he actually moved to fast. In there straight up fight Sasuke was actually able to dodge Raikage and hit him with Chidori.

So we aren't actually talking about regular speed, but a prepared and built up course of action through ninjutsu.



Vergil642 said:


> Being clever, hed probably come to the conclusion itd be best to evade the attack or maybe put a kunai in the way so Jiraiya uses all his strength to punch his fist into it. Of course, seeing Itachis movements Jiraiya will probably be able to guess at what hes planning thanks to his skill in Taijutsu and experience fighting.



I more or less agree here but have to mention the kunai part. I don't think there is time for a course of action like that in a constant taijutsu struggle. If you are talking about 1 big punch then yeah, but not a back and forth for a little while, type scuffle. 



> Im not seeing how Jiraiya would do such a thing facing Raikage if he cant keep up with Raikages attacks. Its like saying I can put a shield between me and a bullet despite me not being able to see the bullet shoot through the air.



Not a bad analogy but my point is putting a shield up because you know the gun will, or is being fired. Its like you know....throwing your hand in front of your face as it is shot or whatever.



> Raikage was moving far slower there. Being airborne he couldnt push off anything and therefore is limited to the rate at which gravity pulls him to the ground.



Not really what I was getting at. It was going back to if Sasuke saw him appear behind him via shared vision he could have spiked Amaterasu quickly behind him, as opposed to simply shielding and guessing.....although I still don't think that would work because I think Sasuke has to directly see the part of Ama. he is controlling.....but I think you see my point now. 



> Take the smoke bomb away and Jiraiya doesnt necessarily get around behind Human Realm. Take the distraction frog away and Animal Realm doesnt necessarily need to be helped by Hungry Ghosts vision and might see Jiraiya move around behind him too.



This is not about the speed. I am saying Pain lost sight of Jiraiya because of the smoke or frog, but when he did come into vision, the other body made it so Pain could react. In Sasuke's case he too lost sight of Raikage, and when he came back into view, another body would have seen that initial appearance whereas Sasuke didn't.



> And when did anything ever imply this? Logically your chakra flow changes all the time as youre using it in various ways by say, pumping an amount into your chest before you use a Katon, or pumping it out your body so you can form a mass of water the shape of a shark and make it go smash into someone.



Has someone actually been placed in a genjutsu mid attack though? Not just taijutsu or running?

I mean I see what you are saying, I am just curious. It seems there is alwasy some kind of standstill in genjutsu.


You always force me to cut you down to 1 post long. Sorry if I left anything specifically you cared more about discussing.


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Oct 20, 2009)

Cursed Avenger said:


> I read through your post and it gave me a good laugh. You reply to everything I've said except this.
> 
> 
> 
> Ironic how you left this out this part out of your reply. I posted it again since it's unbiased fact that whatever jutsu is used it negated by using the shield.



Don't worry Cyphon dosen't need to answer everything.



Itachi reagardless of the shield is still standing to the ground walking.


What if it is a . Itachi is still immobilized,considering when Itachi uses Susanoo while on the ground. Hence with *gravity* He is going to be pulled bown to a swampy grave. If not immobilized.


. So the your argument did nothing but comfirm our argument.




Vergil642 said:


> Except Itachi will realise when his Genjutsu’s broken, and Jiraiya has to first get him into the frog before he can dunk him in the acid. Which he can still walk on anyway.
> 
> It will be difficult for one with such limited comprehension, but in time you will understand that Jiraiya cannot win against Itachi.





*Spoiler*: __ 








He* charged* right into my barrier

*Spoiler*: __ 







One *stumbles* into Jiraiya's territory


How dare you mock my reading comprehension.


Itachi doesn't need to realize his genjutsu has been broken.



Jiraiya's barrier required *no handseals*. 

The moment Itachi comes close to Jiriaya, thinking he is paralyzed and helpless, he *stumbles* into Jiraiya's territory. And dies a horrible horrible death.



An people called Itachi blind. 



Jiraiya takes this with one blow.Itachi cannot win.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 20, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well for a start I was denigrating your general comprehension, but as you've shown your reading comprehension ain't that great either 

Human Realm, controlled by a guy who doesn't really care about meatshielding with his six bodies and doesn't seem overly bothered when they get trashed, ran into Jiraia's barrier.

Itachi's a little smarter. What's more, you still have no idea how Human Realm ran into the barrier. It's entirely possible Jiraiya tricked him in somehow (again, good luck on tricking Itachi with that).

And Genjutsu's pointless in this battle anyway (except Tsukuyomi) as Ni Dai Sennin can just manually halt Jiraiya's chakra and disrupt Itachi's control over it.


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## the box (Oct 20, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Well for a start I was denigrating your general comprehension, but as you've shown your reading comprehension ain't that great either
> 
> Human Realm, controlled by a guy who doesn't really care about meatshielding with his six bodies and doesn't seem overly bothered when they get trashed, ran into Jiraia's barrier.
> 
> ...




umm this dosent matter itachi has no knowledge of the barrier he dies


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 20, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Don't worry Cyphon dosen't need to answer everything.



And I suppose you have an answer that proves Yomi Numa will work despite Itachi being able to nullify it 



> Itachi reagardless of the shield is still standing to the ground walking.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 21, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Well for a start I was denigrating your general comprehension, but as you've shown your reading comprehension ain't that great either



Right, whatever makes you happy




> *
> Human Realm*, controlled by a guy who doesn't really care about meatshielding with his six bodies and doesn't seem overly bothered when they get trashed, ran into *Jiraia'*s barrier.



Firstly this is  realm. That was  And Nagato considers Animal realm his more important body,as shown when he sacrificed *Human* realm to save Animal realm. 

Your reading comprehension is neither that great, too.

Well Animal realm were surprised, if you see his expression was completely blank. He didnot expect something like this to happen. More likely Pain couldn't sense the barrier.



> *Itachi's a little smarter*. What's more, you still have no idea how Human Realm ran into the barrier. It's entirely possible Jiraiya tricked him in somehow (again, good luck on tricking Itachi with that).



Firstly expain how Itachi is smarter than Nagato. Jiraiya was standing still. Animal realm, NOT HUMAN REALM. Along with all the other realm charged at Jiraiya. Jiraiya didnot move, after that instant Animal Realm was captured in the barrier as he charged first or was the first to reach him. Itachi has no knowledge of this move, he is almost certain to get trapped in Jiraiya's barrier. 




> And Genjutsu's pointless in this battle anyway (except Tsukuyomi) as Ni Dai Sennin can just manually halt Jiraiya's chakra and disrupt Itachi's control over it.




Then why hell are we even debating with this. 
Half of Itachi's arsenal is useless. 


MS is his only salvation. And that is still debateable.

And among that Amaterasu can be *blocked* as shown by gaara. Jiraiya can use wild lion's mane to replicate exactly what Gaara did. And he can reverse Amaterasu back at Itachi, by making the big flaming hair ball travel towards Itachi while holding him down with Yomi Numa.



Tsukuyomi can't kill at *best *will sevierly weaken him, But Jiraiya would still be able to fight. Ma and Pa can also help, him. How the fuck does Itachi survive Deep Fryer, Hair Needle barriage, Ma and Pa's tongue.


Yomi Numa and Frog Song, Frog summons. Can be used to counter Susanoo.




Jiraiya in HM rapes Itachi, left right and center. Put in base Jiraiya and healthy Itachi and you have a challange. HM Jiraiya is faster, stronger, infinitely more durable, and has alot more stamina. Ma and Pa wont let Itachi come close to Jiraiya. 




Cursed Avenger said:


> And I suppose you have an answer that proves Yomi Numa will work despite Itachi being able to nullify it



Fristly you have to proove, the shield can touch the swampy part under *Itachi's* legs NOT Susanoo's body, like it did against human realms Pain.

So unless the shield touches the swamp it can't do anything.




> Here we see that a majority of Susanoo is underground and how much is still underground of covering him from below. It also it doesn't have any trouble passing through solid objects.



or possible the lower part dosen't exist 

It is made of pure chakra, So it the part that has no space for chakra to take shape does is not formed. Kinda like a gas, something that has no volume or no definate shape. The shield is still not touching




> Here we see that Susanoo is able to grab a hold of what you choose. If Itachi sinks into the swamp like Pain was, he is able to use Susanoo's arms to pull himself out or use Susanoo as leverage to pull himself out.


 
And you know the user has to be *inside* Susanoo. It has not shown the ability to outright grab the user, and throw him out. Susanoo is made of chakra that chakra comes from its user. If the user moves outside the jutsu would get deactivated. Show me a manga panel of susanoo. Grabbing the user. And still be activated. The user is more or less like Suasnoo's heart, something that supplys chakra into the chakra being, like a heart pumping blood to a human body. Do you see someone, taking out his heart and throwing it away.




> Here we see that the shield can be moved wherever the user chooses to move it and can pass through the ground. Even if Swamp of the Underworld was used, as shown in the page above, Itachi can move the shield and have and part of the shield absorb the jutsu properties and then effectively nullify it.





Again, the Shield is* not touching the ground **undeneath Itachi's feet.* It is protecting Itachi from the OUTSIDE, not *inside *Susanoo.
The shield is behind Itachi. Itachi is inside Susano's body. All the time  supplying chakra.


If you wan't to play it that away.


> The Mirror of Yata-
> The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the* attacks*_* it receives,*_ making the jutsu ineffective.





It changes its attribute in direct response to* attacks*, *Note: Yomi Numa is not an attack nothing is hitting you, It just make you sink to the ground. * You die of Suffocation.



And it is said that it changes and nullifyes attacks *IT recieves, IT* NOT ITACHI, who is inside Susanoo. Making the jutsu ineffective. Susanoo will not be effected by the Swamp, *Itachi* who is standing on the ground will be. It is almost the perfect jutsu for Susanoo. Like Kamui, and Shinra Tensie one that bypasses the shield and effects Itachi.


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## Cursed Avenger (Oct 21, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Fristly you have to proove, the shield can touch the swampy part under *Itachi's* legs NOT Susanoo's body, like it did against human realms Pain.
> 
> So unless the shield touches the swamp it can't do anything.



Your claim is that the shield can't reach Itachi, which you have no proof for. I already gave you the gave you the page where it shows that Itachi can move the shield where he chooses and that it is able to pass through objects.



> or possible the lower part dosen't exist





So you think the body below the elbows doesn't exist?



And yet, here we see the full form and that part of the shield and other arm are still underground. Or do you think that they don't exist as well 

Here's another rather extreme example. It's not Susanoo, but try to look at the point I'm trying to explain. 



Here we see Jiraiya used a detection barrier. You don't see the whole barrier surrounding him and it passes through the Toad summon. Does that mean that it isn't completely surrounding him and those parts don't exist? Imo, Susanoo, like the barrier is giving the user a barrier of chakra that offers complete protection that can't be seen.



> It is made of pure chakra, So it the part that has no space for chakra to take shape does is not formed. Kinda like a gas, something that has no volume or no definate shape. The shield is still not touching





As seen here the shield, made up chakra, is able to pass through the ground and is still whole shown on a later page when moved above ground. Also, the user is used as a medium to call forth the spiritual being which is made from your chakra. Susanoo's likeness is more like that of a spriritual being ie ghost than gas.



> And you know the user has to be *inside* Susanoo. It has not shown the ability to outright grab the user, and throw him out. Susanoo is made of chakra that chakra comes from its user. If the user moves outside the jutsu would get deactivated. Show me a manga panel of susanoo. Grabbing the user. And still be activated. The user is more or less like Suasnoo's heart, something that supplys chakra into the chakra being, like a heart pumping blood to a human body. Do you see someone, taking out his heart and throwing it away.





As you can see, Susanoo's right hand is amongst the debris and there is quite some distance between it and Sasuke. It also isn't attached to Sasuke in any way. What proof do you have that he can't use it to grab himself, when he's already shown to have manhandled Karin from that distance when it's not even attached to him.



> Again, the Shield is* not touching the ground **undeneath Itachi's feet.* It is protecting Itachi from the OUTSIDE, not *inside *Susanoo.
> The shield is behind Itachi. Itachi is inside Susano's body. All the time  supplying chakra.



See above reply and previous shield reply above.



> It changes its attribute in direct response to* attacks*, *Note: Yomi Numa is not an attack nothing is hitting you, It just make you sink to the ground. * You die of Suffocation.
> 
> And it is said that it changes and nullifyes attacks *IT recieves, IT* NOT ITACHI, who is inside Susanoo. Making the jutsu ineffective. Susanoo will not be effected by the Swamp, *Itachi* who is standing on the ground will be. It is almost the perfect jutsu for Susanoo. Like Kamui, and Shinra Tensie one that bypasses the shield and effects Itachi.



 The shields's latent ability is to change it's nature when it comes in contact with any jutsu. That means you can use it to nullify anything the shield is used on. Like stated repeatedly, Itachi only needs to move the shield towards the jutsu and let the shield work it's magic.


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## killer455 (Oct 21, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> *Sasuke's* Amaterasu can be *blocked* as shown by gaara.



fixed.


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## Lezard Valeth (Oct 21, 2009)

A mere doton ninjutsu can counter Itachi's amaterasu

Jiraiya is a doton user


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## Kam1na (Oct 21, 2009)

Itachi vs Jiraya is the only battle that i clearly don't have a opinion about the winner.Itachi himself stated that he was not be able to defeat him alongside with Kisame and if they were able to defeat him they will have been seriously wounded.If we consider this statement true we can say that Itachi can't defeat Jiraya but in the other hand Susanoo seems to be just too powerfull.I don't kwow how any shinobi can defeat this Jutsu if the user is able to maintain Susanoo for a long period of time.For having a more clear conclusion for this fight we must first learn how Susanoo works and how it can be defeated.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 21, 2009)

killer455 said:


> fixed.



Thank you I forgot, Sasuke's amaterasu has surpassed Itachi's amaterasu.


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## killer455 (Oct 21, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Thank you I forgot, Sasuke's amaterasu has surpassed Itachi's amaterasu.



only in terms creative applications.

it's raw power is still far weaker compared to Itachi's one.

weapon's qualities depend on the user.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 21, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Firstly this is  realm. That was  And Nagato considers Animal realm his more important body,as shown when he sacrificed *Human* realm to save Animal realm.
> 
> Your reading comprehension is neither that great, too.
> 
> Well Animal realm were surprised, if you see his expression was completely blank. He didnot expect something like this to happen. More likely Pain couldn't sense the barrier.



Ooops, my bad.

Helps my argument tremendously though. Nagato's enough of a moron to send an important body running into a trap.



> Firstly expain how Itachi is smarter than Nagato. Jiraiya was standing still. Animal realm, NOT HUMAN REALM. Along with all the other realm charged at Jiraiya. Jiraiya didnot move, after that instant Animal Realm was captured in the barrier as he charged first or was the first to reach him. Itachi has no knowledge of this move, he is almost certain to get trapped in Jiraiya's barrier.



Itachi was the only person to figure out Madara was still alive, was able to act as a deterrent to Madara, preventing him from doing much beyond letting his plans unfold slowly when Madara saw through everything Minato tried in their fight and planned out successfully a decade of his life, in the process successfully predicting and manipulating a number of people to do so. And he's given a 5 in intelligence.

What's Nagato done that's so smart?

You still have no way of proving what the barrier looks like. You're trying to tell me that Itachi will _somehow_ walk into a barrier which I bet looks suspiciously like a frog's mouth and _somehow_ forget how to walk on water if he gets in there.




> Then why hell are we even debating with this.
> Half of Itachi's arsenal is useless.
> 
> 
> ...



Gaara blocked Kagatsuchi, which controls the weaksauce afterflames. Jiraiya's nowhere near fast enough to pull out Ranjishigami no Jutsu when Itachi ignites the flames on his face. Tsukuyomi would one shot Jiraiya. Deep fryer is useless to anyone who can jump and walk on walls, and even more useless against someone who can choose to one shot Jiraiya in an instant with two jutsu, and even more useless against someone who can do that and randomly make themselves effectively invincible at will with Susanoo. Hair needle barrage gets KB feinted or dodged, Ni Dai Sennin's tongues get the same treatment, or the frog gets Genjutsu'd into missing (doesn't matter if they get broken out of the Genjutsu, if their attack is fugged up the Genjutsu's done it's job).

Frog Song gets seen through, Frog Summons get raped by Susanoo and Yomi Numa's extremely debateable. What isn't is how Itachi can one shot Jiraiya by looking at him, making Yomi Numa's effects pointless as Itachi can win the fight at any time long before being killed.




> Fristly you have to proove, the shield can touch the swampy part under *Itachi's* legs NOT Susanoo's body, like it did against human realms Pain.
> 
> So unless the shield touches the swamp it can't do anything.



 All Susanoo has to do is drop it's arm and the shield is below Itachi.

Logic and basic knowledge of how the elbow works wins again 



> or possible the lower part dosen't exist
> 
> It is made of pure chakra, So it the part that has no space for chakra to take shape does is not formed. Kinda like a gas, something that has no volume or no definate shape. The shield is still not touching



See above.



> And you know the user has to be *inside* Susanoo. It has not shown the ability to outright grab the user, and throw him out. Susanoo is made of chakra that chakra comes from its user. If the user moves outside the jutsu would get deactivated. Show me a manga panel of susanoo. Grabbing the user. And still be activated. The user is more or less like Suasnoo's heart, something that supplys chakra into the chakra being, like a heart pumping blood to a human body. Do you see someone, taking out his heart and throwing it away.







> Again, the Shield is* not touching the ground **undeneath Itachi's feet.* It is protecting Itachi from the OUTSIDE, not *inside *Susanoo.
> The shield is behind Itachi. Itachi is inside Susano's body. All the time  supplying chakra.
> 
> 
> ...



Semantics arguments now?

Susanoo, being in contact with the ground, will receive the attack just like Itachi when Yomi Numa's used. Yomi Numa attacks the enemy by sucking them below the ground. An attack isn't always a striking blow y'know.


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## Space Jam (Oct 21, 2009)

It would be a good fight. 
After they exchange a bunch of jutsu with neither of them getting fucked up bad, Itachi will start using his Mangkeyo and even if Jiraiya aovids it at first either he, ma, or pa will have to look at it like how Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai did. 

It would most likely be one of the frogs so then with one of them gone Jiraiya would probably pull out his strongest jutsu, but Itachi would end up using Susano to stop it and either using it or Amatersu to kill Jiraiya eventually unless he escapes


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 22, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Ooops, my bad.
> 
> Helps my argument tremendously though. Nagato's enough of a moron to send an important body running into a trap.



Or possibly he didn't see the trap, which is the exact point of a *trap.*



> Itachi was the only person to figure out Madara was still alive, was able to act as a deterrent to Madara, preventing him from doing much beyond letting his plans unfold slowly when Madara saw through everything Minato tried in their fight and planned out successfully a decade of his life, in the process successfully predicting and manipulating a number of people to do so. And he's given a 5 in intelligence.


And so did Jiraiya he found out Madara must be alive. And told his theory to Kakashi, Kakashi was then thus able to put all the pieces together in order to find out Madara's identity. Minato fucked up Madara's plan soo badly it isn't even funny. Madara need the full power of the Kyuubi, sadly on half is in the deathgod. 

And so is Tsunade and Orochimaru, do you see them being able to bring up a flawless strategy in the heat of battle, with limited knowledge of his opponents.





> What's Nagato done that's so smart?



I don't know create akatsuki, make Pain, kill Jiraiya by ambushing him. Coordinate from Six different points of view instantly. Create Pain, take over Rain. Create robotics technology. Cast a genjutsu soo powerfull in this minions that it makes a interrogation expert and a mind reading expert crap in his pants. 



> You still have no way of proving what the barrier looks like. You're trying to tell me that Itachi will _somehow_ walk into a barrier which I bet looks suspiciously like a frog's mouth and _somehow_ forget how to walk on water if he gets in there.



That didnot help Pain, it wont help Itachi.  

It wont help Itachi. Neither do you have any credibility that Itachi wont share the same fate as Animal realm. He is going to lower down his guard for the finishing blow. Just like Animal realm. He is gong to die just like animal realm. None of the Pain realms was able to detect him. So yes Itachi will step on the barrier and get drowned in acid. Knowledge is the key? Itachi doesn't have it.



Regardless he created that barrier in an instant.



> Gaara blocked Kagatsuchi, which controls the weaksauce afterflames.



Amaterasu = Amaterasu

Black flames form hell is the same.

Amaterasu was shit from the start. 
And also Sasuke amaterasu > Itachi's amaterasu.




> Jiraiya's nowhere near fast enough to pull out Ranjishigami no Jutsu when Itachi ignites the flames on his face.



As though Jiraiya who is specialized in long range will allow Itachi to come close range. Ranjishigami no Jutsu was instant, only too one hand seal.  And is very fast. Jiraiya could just move his hair in front of Amaterasu and then wrap Itachi with the flaming hair.




> Tsukuyomi would one shot Jiraiya.



Like it did it to Kakashi. . People with stronger will power will survive Tsukuyomi more better. At best will weaken Jiraiya. It isn't doing any thing to a guy who fucking WILLED himself back to life.  

After having his throat caved in, 5 five of his vital organs stabbed, and an arm chopped off and was bleeding heavily, and he still got up *after his heart stopped beating.* Then he had enough senses to write a coded message, that involves remembering the first letters of the specific chapters of a single book. And used a Jutsu that requires very good chakra control.

Jiraiya need only one Hand seal to kill Itachi.


Jiriaya one shots him with Yomi Numa.



> Deep fryer is useless to anyone who can jump and walk on walls,



Yes because there are wall in the area where killer bee fought.

And it is soo easy to jump over a sea of fire and not land on it again. Becaue Itachi wont come down cause he can fly now.




> and even more useless against someone who can choose to one shot Jiraiya in an instant with two jutsu,


Firstly how is it oneshotting when he uses two jutsu 

Jiraiya can also instant pawn Itachi with two jutsu.

Itachi record: 
Pawning Orochimaru, in two moves
Pawning Deidera in one move

Jiraiya's record:
Pawning Konan, two moves.
Pawning Kisame, in one move.

Both of them pawned an Akatsuki in one or two moves.


Jiraiya can also one shot Itachi, by just spitting on him then igniting him.

or make him come into the barrier. Or just Yomi Numa him from afar.
It will instantly sink him when* going with gravity*. as it will be 2 times more stronger and faster than the one he did to human realm. 

Jiraiya has so many ways of killing Itachi it isn't even funny.



> and even more useless against someone who can do that and randomly make themselves effectively invincible at will with Susanoo



Premature susanoo is useless and can be broken. Kirin destroyed premature Susanoo. Raikage's punch broke through Susanoo. Cho Odama rasengan on the Susanoo and bye bye Itachi. 


> Hair needle barrage gets KB feinted or dodged,



Similarly Itachi's amatersu and Susanoo gets Kb feinted and dodged
Man are you Itachifans hippocritical


And Firstly, this is Jiraiya's fastest jutsu. And dodging this is impossible because of the wide area. Itachi has no defensive moves out side Susanoo. which consumes soo much chakra and kill the user.





> Ni Dai Sennin's tongues get the same treatment,



They because the have been dodge. I counter any of Itachi moves by saying Jiraiya dodges every single one of Itachi's moves. Amatersu can be blocked, dodged and Kawarimied. Susanoo is very immmobile. The user can't move fast. Jiraiya dries Itachi out with his superior speed or just yomi numa.




> or the frog gets Genjutsu'd into missing (doesn't matter if they get broken out of the Genjutsu, if their attack is fugged up the Genjutsu's done it's job).



Because Itachi know's the frogs are preparing a genjutsu 




> Frog Song gets seen through,



Frog Song can't be seen through.

*Spoiler*: __ 





> The person whose ears the "Toad Confrontation Chant" reaches has both* mind and body* completely sealed between the hands of giant unmoving toads!!
> [picture of the four giant toads holding the barrier between their hands]







When someone's mind and body is sealed he can't use chakra.Which is what Itachi needs in order to see throught genjutsu. So it is impossible to see through the genjutsu.




> Frog Summons get raped by Susanoo



Frog Summon's are faster than Susanoo they can move incredible long distance in seconds. One of them has a shield that can block Susanoo's sword



> and Yomi Numa's extremely debateable. What isn't is how Itachi can one shot Jiraiya by looking at him, making Yomi Numa's effects pointless as Itachi can win the fight at any time long before being killed.




Yomi Numa is an instant kill jutsu unless you are the size of a* giant snake* a swamp that size will instantly drown any human. And going with gravity it is atleast twice more faster.



> All Susanoo has to do is drop it's arm and the shield is below Itachi.
> 
> Logic and basic knowledge of how the elbow works wins again






And the justu is instantanious when going with gravity. The there is the still part where Itachi is sill immobilized. And is half way underground.




> Semantics arguments now?
> 
> Susanoo, being in contact with the ground, will receive the attack just like Itachi when Yomi Numa's used. Yomi Numa attacks the enemy by sucking them below the ground. An attack isn't always a striking blow y'know.




Attack itself is a striking blow. It is more or less a supplimentary jutsu. Normally immobilizes you, but it can kill you by drowning you. And Jiraiya can make it so, that JUST Itachi is effected. And not Susanoo.




Something I didn't notice before. Jiraiya does use


And he can merge with Itachi's shadow. And make Itachi kill himself with a kunai. Another handsealless jutsu. Heck he can use this to in combination with his Shadow clone. To kill Itachi instantly.  And the best part is thanks to his own inhumane stamina he can keep spaming this jutsu.

Thanks to the Itachi vs Jiraiya debates I realized subtle points I missed out in Jiraiya's skill and power. Which shows his superiority


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## SM00TH38 (Oct 22, 2009)

^^ do you have any proof that jiriaya wont end up like Oro and deidara, and get i paneled....?


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 22, 2009)

SM00TH38 said:


> ^^ do you have any proof that jiriaya wont end up like Oro and deidara, and get i paneled....?



Yes, if Itachi tries the same stunt as he did against Oro and Deidera he gets pawned faster than Animal realm.



Itachi is cocky enough to try the same stunt he tried to pull of against Orochimaru.






And then







And yes, that is what will be both IC and is* very likely* to happen if those two faced off.
 Itachi steps into Jiriya's barrier and gets fucked.


And tell me do you have any proof that Itachi doesnot get one paneled by Jiraiya like Konan and Kisame.


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## MSAL (Oct 22, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Yes, if Itachi tries the same stunt as he did against Oro and Deidera he gets pawned faster than Animal realm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hmm..im a bit confused, how you get the impression that Itachi is cocky. Could you please explain your reasoning behind this? 

Because from what ive seen of Itachi, he certainly isnt cocky in any way, shape or form. Infact, Konohamaru is probably more cocky than Itachi. 

Itachi, is sure of his own powers, hes confident. But hes also calm, and he analyses well. He very rarely gets caught of guard because of this and even if he does (as in the case with his 30% clone and Kakashi), he very quickly analysed what went wring. He also, unlike most Shinobi, complements his opponents if they display more skill than he was expecting, as done with both Kakashi and Naruto. So no, he is definitely not cocky, in any way. His attitude and calmness under pressure, is what makes him an outstanding Shinobi.

Also. I will return the last question to you. What makes yiu think Jiraiya diesnt one panelled by genjutsu or something other, just like Deidara and Orochimaru did? You may not remember this, but he DID have eye contact with Itachi when they met in the that hallway.. ^_^


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

SM00TH38 said:


> ^^ do you have any proof that jiriaya wont end up like Oro and deidara, and get i paneled....?



Just to be clear this whole battle is speculation, so there is really no more proof he would get 1 paneled than he wouldn't. 

There are just a few unknowns that keep us from having a solid answer. It really just comes down to what you believe would happen first etc...


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Just to be clear this whole battle is speculation, so there is really no more proof he would get 1 paneled than he wouldn't.
> 
> There are just a few unknowns that keep us from having a solid answer. It really just comes down to what you believe would happen first etc...



Wrong Cyphon. People who support Itachi have a solid answer based on facts. What you say describe people who support Jiraiya.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

peaceful said:


> Wrong Cyphon. People who support Itachi have a solid answer based on facts. What you say describe people who support Jiraiya.



Actually you guys don't have a solid answer. You have feats from Itachi beating opponents all inferior to Jiraiya ESPECIALLY if we are talking SM.

The Jiraiya side has a cannon statement made by Itachi that says a draw is the most likely outcome, and Itachi tards *speculate* (bold and underline for importance) that he was lying.

There was nothing ever stated in the manga to contradict this and based on that and feats both sides can present a fair argument. 

And historically the lesser posting side has been the ones in support of Itachi, merely because they state things as facts but can only prove about.....1% of them. 

I know people in support of the Jiraiya side tend to do that, but not so much as the Itachi side. 

Me personally, I present possibilities and give reasons as to why I see it that way, but I certainly don't claim things as fact and then refuse to provide scans or evidence of it.....like the side supporting Itachi.

Obviously you being big on Itachi yourself are not going to agree with this, but that is merely because it disagrees with the outcome you desire. If Itachi fans are only "speculating", which they are, that means you don't have your solid "Itachi is my god" stance rooted firmly anymore.


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Actually you guys don't have a solid answer. You have feats from Itachi beating opponents all inferior to Jiraiya ESPECIALLY if we are talking SM.
> 
> The Jiraiya side has a cannon statement made by Itachi that says a draw is the most likely outcome, and Itachi tards *speculate* (bold and underline for importance) that he was lying.
> 
> ...



Wtf is this shit? 

Itachi was lying. Read the fucking manga from the beggining and you will understand that he was an ally of Konoha. He had no reason to battle Jiraiya. Also, he refered to Naruto and Not Jiraiya but still in both occasions he had to lie in order to avoid unessecary conflict.

Anything else you want me to explain so you can understand?


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

peaceful said:


> Itachi was lying.



Proof please.



> Read the fucking manga from the beggining and you will understand that he was an ally of Konoha.



What does this have to do with him comparing himself to Jiraiya?



> He had no reason to battle Jiraiya.



Never said he did. That still has nothing to do with him comparing himself.



> Also, he refered to Naruto and Not Jiraiya but still in both occasions he had to lie in order to avoid unessecary conflict.



I don't know what you mean by the reference part and I still don't see how him not wanting to capture Naruto results in him lying about how strong Jiraiya is. 



> Anything else you want me to explain so you can understand?



No thanks, I know how offended you guys get. I would like to stay peaceful with you, no pun.


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Proof please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There was a translation error.

So its logical for you a person who is an ally with somebody to start battling his friends? Of course not. Itachi had to find an excuse to avoid the conflict. The best excuse was to say that he was exhausted and that Jiraiya was very strong. Even Kisame wondered about that which means that it was suspicious. We get to know why Itachi lied when Madara told the story.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Just drop it, Peaceful. The majority people believe an incredibly handicapped Itachi would defeat a Jiraiya with full knowledge, starting in Hermit Mode, who has trained himself in Gai's art of following the feet of a Sharingan user, and as the reflexes and speed of the Raikage to dodge Amatarasu. Some people won't and that's fine, but the whole "Kisame and Itachi had to run" thing will be even more of a joke after these next few chapters.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

peaceful said:


> There was a translation error.



Which part? I read the Viz so I am not sure what you mean.



> So its logical for you a person who is an ally with somebody to start battling his friends? Of course not.



Again, not sure what this has to do with the point at hand. Could you explain the relevance please.



> Itachi had to find an excuse to avoid the conflict. The best excuse was to say that he was exhausted and that Jiraiya was very strong.



He came back to Konoha (his biggest enemy) and now you are saying he was trying to avoid conflict? Seems like he is less of a genius than we thought 

Anyway, he knows he can't just leave because they have 1 opponent. These are guys that are sent by themselves to catch the tailed beasts, more specifically Itachi's partner Kisame has been sent (with confidence) to catch the strongest of them.

So you really think Itachi saying Jiraiya was strong was his planned lie to stop combat? If that's the case and I decide to agree with you, I think its time we all admit Itachi has the intelligence of Kiba. Because that is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.



> Even Kisame wondered about that which means that it was suspicious. We get to know why Itachi lied when Madara told the story.



Kisame being suspicious doesn't really amount to much. Again, I am open to your actual thoughts and reasons but you are giving me none. How is Kisame being suspicious relevant?


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## the box (Oct 22, 2009)

what if it dosent Illusory


right now itachi is outclassed feat wise by jiraya. the only thing itachi has is genjutsu


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Which part? I read the Viz so I am not sure what you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wrong again. He went there only to warn the elders. Do you remember what Madara told. After the third died Itachi decided to go there in order to remind the elders that he is still "alive" and that he could spread the truth about the Uchiha massacre. Another reason he went there was to see Sasukes growth and Tsukuyomi him so to make him more angry and more passionate. Silly move to Tsukuyomi Sasuke and lose chakra and power while someone as strong as Jiraiya is near right? But the fact is he DIDNT CARE ABOUT SOMEONE LIKE JIRAIYA BECAUSE HE COULD RAPE HIM.

Kisame being suspicious expresses the audience. It would be weird if no one in the manga found strange that they retreated...


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

peaceful said:


> Wrong again. He went there only to warn the elders. Do you remember what Madara told. After the third died Itachi decided to go there in order to remind the elders that he is still "alive" and that he could spread the truth about the Uchiha massacre. Another reason he went there was to see Sasukes growth and Tsukuyomi him so to make him more angry and more passionate.



What was I wrong about? I didn't claim anything

Anyway, you missed the point. If he is trying to avoid conflict and walks into enemy territory where you know.....CONFLICT is bound to happen, he just seems like an idiot to me. 

So something simply doesn't fit. I am not saying which part doesn't, but it could just very well be Itachi is dumb.....its kind of sad because I always thought he was pretty damn smart.



> Silly move to Tsukuyomi Sasuke and lose chakra and power while someone as strong as Jiraiya is near right? But the fact is he DIDNT CARE ABOUT SOMEONE LIKE JIRAIYA BECAUSE HE COULD RAPE HIM.



He had Kisame to watch his back, I don't see any big implication there. 

Anyway, can you prove he could rape him please? Or do you still refuse to provide such evidence in the face of ignorant pride?



> Kisame being suspicious expresses the audience. It would be weird if no one in the manga found strange that they retreated...



? Don't understand what you mean here.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

the box said:


> what if it dosent Illusory. right now itachi is outclassed feat wise by jiraya. the only thing itachi has is genjutsu



Yes, there's Genjutsu, but there's also speed. Itachi's shushin as well as handseals completely escapes Sharingan detection. Jiraiya never went up against the Sharingan, but many people doubt he has the reflexes like the Raikage or the lightning-dodging Itachi or the Sharingan-trumping speed. Then there's Ninjutsu/Doujutsu, as his summons and attacks, while less diverse, are on an undeniably higher level. Itachi's intelligence as a genius is also better supported. 

Feat wise, the only thing Jiraiya has an advantage in over a dying Itachi is stamina and strength. Which isn't much considering Itachi was a day away from perishing to his sickness anyways. It's like talking down to Old Sarutobi or Orochimaru when Sasuke beat him. If Kisame gets absolutely owned by Killerbee then I'll eat my words. But the man who owned the crap out of Sasuke, is a perfect host whom Jiraiya would arguably be overwhelmed by, is likely about to have a serious battle against Kisame and Kisame put Itachi leagues above himself.   

So even you should then be able to agree that the fact that Itachi wanted to retreat was for the exact reasons Madara stated. That he never intended to help Madara by delivering him the Fox and was only in Konoha to allow Danzou and Root to know that he was still alive and watching so they wouldn't go near Sasuke. This makes sense since Jiraiya was staring in his eyes and Itachi thought it prudent to use a second Tsukiyomi on Sasuke when a Sannin had just threatened his life. Itachi is accepted by most as being above the Sannin level and Kisame will likely join him soon enough.


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> What was I wrong about? I didn't claim anything
> 
> Anyway, you missed the point. If he is trying to avoid conflict and walks into enemy territory where you know.....CONFLICT is bound to happen, he just seems like an idiot to me.
> 
> ...



He knew that there might be a chance he would fight. But did you notice? He didnt kill anyone although he could. Also he tried as best as he could to avoid conflict. He said to Kisame that he would better not fight normally since he would bring more ninjas. He did enough to complete his two goals.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Yes, there's Genjutsu, but there's also speed. Itachi's shushin as well as handseals completely escapes Sharingan detection.



Sorry, every time I see this I feel the need to correct you. His hand speed is the only thing that was fast enough to escape detection. His body speed was never shown or stated to be that fast.

In fact, Kakashi managed to keep up and block every attack from Itachi as well as recognizing his exploding bunshin.

Just so you know, Kakashi only has 1 eye with Sharingan 



> Jiraiya never went up against the Sharingan, but many people doubt he has the reflexes like the Raikage or the lightning-dodging Itachi or the Sharingan-trumping speed.



Many people's doubts don't mean anything. Many people doubt Itachi would win. So what is your point?



> Then there's Ninjutsu/Doujutsu, as his summons and attacks, while less diverse, are on an undeniably higher level.



Jiraiya completely trumps Itachi in ninjutsu. If we begin to talk about MS then you can make an argument, but it depends if you call it dojutsu or ninjutsu. If we go further and talk about SM than genjutsu is out, minus arguably Tsukiyami.



> Feat wise, the only thing Jiraiya has an advantage in over a dying Itachi is stamina and strength. Which isn't much considering Itachi was a day away from perishing to his sickness anyways.



Your forgot his speed advantage and his major ninjutsu advantage.

Oh, and Itachi wasn't that sick or even showing any side effects until he used MS. So his powers weren't any less than they normally would be, minus the fact that he could use MS with less punishment on his body. But he still had the techniques and everything he would normally have in a fight.



> is a perfect host whom Jiraiya would arguably be overwhelmed by,



This is irrelevant in so many ways.



> is likely about to have a serious battle against Kisame and Kisame put Itachi leagues above himself.



Scans of this. When did he put Itachi "leagues" above himself?



> This makes sense since Jiraiya was staring in his eyes



Never proven, in fact, easily dis-proven based off evidence you have provided in the past. 



> and Itachi thought it prudent to use a second Tsukiyomi on Sasuke when a Sannin had just threatened his life.



He had Kisame (an 8 tailed Bijuu hunter) watching his back. I would feel pretty safe myself.



> Itachi is accepted by most as being above the Sannin level and Kisame will likely join him soon enough.



Itachi tards don't account for most


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Yes, there's Genjutsu, *but there's also speed. Itachi's shushin* as well as handseals completely escapes Sharingan detection. Jiraiya never went up against the Sharingan, but many people doubt he has the reflexes like the Raikage or the lightning-dodging Itachi or the Sharingan-trumping speed. Then there's Ninjutsu/Doujutsu, as his summons and attacks, while less diverse, are on an undeniably higher level. Itachi's intelligence as a genius is also better supported.
> 
> Feat wise, the only thing Jiraiya has an advantage in over a dying Itachi is stamina and strength. Which isn't much considering Itachi was a day away from perishing to his sickness anyways. It's like talking down to Old Sarutobi or Orochimaru when Sasuke beat him. If Kisame gets absolutely owned by Killerbee then I'll eat my words. But the man who owned the crap out of Sasuke, is a perfect host whom Jiraiya would arguably be overwhelmed by, is likely about to have a serious battle against Kisame and Kisame put Itachi leagues above himself.
> 
> So even you should then be able to agree that the fact that Itachi wanted to retreat was for the exact reasons Madara stated. That he never intended to help Madara by delivering him the Fox and was only in Konoha to allow Danzou and Root to know that he was still alive and watching so they wouldn't go near Sasuke. This makes sense since Jiraiya was staring in his eyes and Itachi thought it prudent to use a second Tsukiyomi on Sasuke when a Sannin had just threatened his life. Itachi is accepted by most as being above the Sannin level and Kisame will likely join him soon enough.



Hermit Mode enhances Jiraiya's speed.  So Genjutsu is all he has against Jiraiya, and Jiraiya's already implied he's proficient enough at breaking genjutsu, since he was teaching Naruto how to do so.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

peaceful said:


> He knew that there might be a chance he would fight. But did you notice? He didnt kill anyone although he could.



Why do you keep bringing up irrelevant points that I am not even debating. I am not saying he didn't want to avoid conflict or that he couldn't have killed some people.



> Also he tried as best as he could to avoid conflict. He said to Kisame that he would better not fight normally since he would bring more ninjas. He did enough to complete his two goals.



Trying to avoid conflict (at least in a smart way) would be staying out of Konoha.


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Why do you keep bringing up irrelevant points that I am not even debating. I am not saying he didn't want to avoid conflict or that he couldn't have killed some people.
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to avoid conflict (at least in a smart way) would be staying out of Konoha.



It feels so good coming out a winner in a debate. But if you wish i will continue playing your game, not caring about flamebaits, and explaining simple things.

You are saying that he if he wanted to avoid conflict he should have been away from Konoha. But Itachi had a goal. I already explained to you his goals. But while he tried to achieve his goals he did it by avoiding conflict, by avoid killing his allies, by restricting Kisame from massacring his allies and avoid fighting Jiraiya. Thats what my first point reffered to. There is  reason they are all together.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Hermit Mode enhances Jiraiya's speed.  So Genjutsu is all he has against Jiraiya, and Jiraiya's already implied he's proficient enough at breaking genjutsu, since he was teaching Naruto how to do so.



Jiraiya was never shown to move faster than the Sharingan can see. So no, he has Genjutsu, Speed, and a better arsenal of attacks if we're going by feats. According to the plot he's smarter. The feat that Hermit Mode had was moving faster than lesser Pein realms. Not the same as summoning a clone and having it shushin to the side before Sasuke's eyes even register it. Not at all. Jiraiya only has Stamina and Strength advantages. Stamina isn't helpful here as Itachi's arsenal and style is designed for short battles anyways. Strength isn't very useful against someone who is faster and more perceptive than you are. Especially if you're staring at their feet only. Which makes it way easier to dodge Amatarasu by the way, even if Jiraiya did have the reflexes and speed of Raikage and Itachi... which no feat supports.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> *Jiraiya was never shown to move faster than the Sharingan can see.* So no, he has Genjutsu, Speed, and a better arsenal of attacks if we're going by feats. According to the plot he's smarter. The feat that Hermit Mode had was moving faster than lesser Pein realms. Not the same as summoning a clone and having it shushin to the side before Sasuke's eyes even register it. Not at all. Jiraiya only has Stamina and Strength advantages. Stamina isn't helpful here as Itachi's arsenal and style is designed for short battles anyways. Strength isn't very useful against someone who is faster and more perceptive than you are. *Especially if you're staring at their feet only.* Which makes it way easier to dodge Amatarasu by the way, even if Jiraiya did have the reflexes and speed of Raikage and Itachi... which no feat supports.



Which is why Hermit Mode enhances his _speed._

Similarly, Itachi was never shown to be as fast as HM. So it's debatable who has the advantage in speed. The only thing Itachi has a concrete edge over Jiraiya is genjutsu, which Jiraiya can break.

And you make it seem as if the only way someone can go up against Itachi (if they don't have the Sharingan) is to look away from their eyes. Ma and Pa can break him out of the genjutsu as well, on top of Jiraiya breaking it himself (provided it's not Tsukuyomi or something of the like). Amaterasu's dodged by his enhanced speed. Stamina > Itachi's. Strength > Itachi's. Itachi won't last long, especially if he pulls out big jutsu with his chakra supply, having to try to get Jiraiya at once. But I don't see that happening with HM.

Off to Data Management, where I might get on a comp since we're in the computer lab today.


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Which is why Hermit Mode enhances his _speed._
> 
> Similarly, Itachi was never shown to be as fast as HM. So it's debatable who has the advantage in speed. The only thing Itachi has a concrete edge over Jiraiya is genjutsu, which Jiraiya can break.
> 
> ...



Itachi never fought seriously so you cant judge feats by speculation.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Itachi could beat Jiraiya without fighting seriously and dying.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Similarly, Itachi was never shown to be as fast as HM. So it's debatable who has the advantage in speed. The only thing Itachi has a concrete edge over Jiraiya is genjutsu, which Jiraiya can break.



Jiraiya's method of breaking Genjutsu failed against Itachi. He can't break Tsukiyomi and Tsukiyomi can be layered in to even a finger Genjutsu which Jiraiya has no knowledge of.



Lady Tsunade said:


> And you make it seem as if the only way someone can go up against Itachi (if they don't have the Sharingan) is to look away from their eyes. Ma and Pa can break him out of the genjutsu as well, on top of Jiraiya breaking it himself (provided it's not Tsukuyomi or something of the like).



If they instantly realize he's in a Genjutsu and instantly break him out and are already instantly summoned, sure. But by the time Chiyo and Sakura, two medical ninja famed for understanding subtle shifts in health noticed that Naruto was in a Genjutsu Itachi had already warned him that he wasn't going to use Tsukiyomi on him.  



Lady Tsunade said:


> Amaterasu's dodged by his enhanced speed. Stamina > Itachi's. Strength > Itachi's. Itachi won't last long, especially if he pulls out big jutsu with his chakra supply, having to try to get Jiraiya at once. But I don't see that happening with HM.



HM Jiraiya does not have Raikage's reflexes which are crucial for dodging Amatarasu. Without those synapses, he can't look at eyes and won't see Amatarasu coming. Another crucial element. Finally, his shushin was never shown to be faster than the Sharingan, the final, crucial element. Everything you said here is unsupported and illogical.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

peaceful said:


> You are saying that he if he wanted to avoid conflict he should have been away from Konoha. But Itachi had a goal. I already explained to you his goals. But while he tried to achieve his goals he did it by avoiding conflict, by avoid killing his allies, by restricting Kisame from massacring his allies and avoid fighting Jiraiya. Thats what my first point reffered to. There is  reason they are all together.



So then his goal was actually to warn Konoha, not to avoid conflict. That was more just like something he hoped to do well actually achieving his real goal.

Again though, this is far beyond the original point of him comparing himself to Jiraiya. 

Nice try and I appreciate you taking the time to explain a bit more, but I remain unconvinced.


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> So then his goal was actually to warn Konoha, not to avoid conflict. That was more just like something he hoped to do well actually achieving his real goal.
> 
> Again though, this is far beyond the original point of him comparing himself to Jiraiya.
> 
> Nice try and I appreciate you taking the time to explain a bit more, but I remain unconvinced.



His goal was to warn Konoha remind Sasuke while avoiding any conflict and espcially fatal conflict. This point proves wrong your favourite statement that Itachi admitted Jiraiyas superiority.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

peaceful said:


> His goal was to warn Konoha remind Sasuke while avoiding any conflict and espcially fatal conflict.



Like I said (but will repeat for the sake of you getting it), if his goal was to avoid conflict he wouldn't have went to the very place it is most likely to happen.



> This point proves wrong your favourite statement that Itachi admitted Jiraiyas superiority.



1. How so?

2. It isn't my favorite statement by a long shot. Simply our only cannon comparison of the 2.


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Like I said (but will repeat for the sake of you getting it), if his goal was to avoid conflict he wouldn't have went to the very place it is most likely to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Continuing to not responding to flamebaits.

BEcause i see you are unable to think clearly.

Itachi is a secret agent in Akatsuki. Akatsuki(Madara) gives him the order to go to konoha so as to catch Kuybi(warn the elders but only Itachi and Madara knows that and not Kisame). Itachi goes there because he wants to warn the elders and remind Sasuke(something that Madara wants too since he wants Sasuke for his plans so he wanted him alive) while he is there he wants the least possible conflict and no deaths. This results to his retreat, and his sucess for the goals he had. So he went to a place where he could fight so that Hokage/elders/advisors would know it and get the warning plus the fact that Sasuke could also learn it so he would come and find him.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

You're better off dropping it, Peaceful. If Cyphon won't read cannon, he won't read your posts.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

peaceful said:


> Itachi is a secret agent in Akatsuki. Akatsuki(Madara) gives him the order to go to konoha so as to catch Kuybi(warn the elders but only Itachi and Madara knows that and not Kisame). Itachi goes there because he wants to warn the elders and remind Sasuke(something that Madara wants too since he wants Sasuke for his plans so he wanted him alive) while he is there he wants the least possible conflict and no deaths. This results to his retreat, and his sucess for the goals he had. So he went to a place where he could fight so that Hokage/elders/advisors would know it and get the warning plus the fact that Sasuke could also learn it so he would come and find him.



So again, you repeat that his goal was to warn the elders. And again, I repeat, I know that. 

So his goal of avoiding conflict was just something on the side he had hoped to achieve.

Anyway, circles bore, shall we move on?


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> So again, you repeat that his goal was to warn the elders. And again, I repeat, I know that.
> 
> So his goal of avoiding conflict was just something on the side he had hoped to achieve.
> 
> Anyway, circles bore, shall we move on?





Illusory said:


> You're better off dropping it, Peaceful. If Cyphon won't read cannon, he won't read your posts.



Your reply Cyphon. I am not the dellusional one here. The remote fact you negged me proves how desperate you are...


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Jiraiya's method of breaking Genjutsu failed against Itachi. He can't break Tsukiyomi and Tsukiyomi can be layered in to even a finger Genjutsu which Jiraiya has no knowledge of.



Only because _Naruto failed_ at employing it properly. Doesn't mean the method itself is void.



> If they instantly realize he's in a Genjutsu and instantly break him out and are already instantly summoned, sure. But by the time Chiyo and Sakura, two medical ninja famed for understanding subtle shifts in health noticed that Naruto was in a Genjutsu Itachi had already warned him that he wasn't going to use Tsukiyomi on him.



They're stuck to him. I'm sure they'd feel his disturbed chakra. And a sure-fire sign 



> HM Jiraiya does not have Raikage's reflexes which are crucial for dodging Amatarasu. Without those synapses, he can't look at eyes and won't see Amatarasu coming. Another crucial element. Finally, his shushin was never shown to be faster than the Sharingan, the final, crucial element. Everything you said here is unsupported and illogical.



It's a possibility he's able. We don't know how fast they are in relation to each other, Jiraiya and Raikage.



Illusory said:


> You're better off dropping it, Peaceful. If Cyphon won't read cannon, he won't read your posts.



So if it's not in favor of Itachi, it's not canon? Cyphon's been providing canon arguments this entire time, with a few assumptions that weren't too far-fetched. I highly suggest you don't attack his credibility, because whereas he may not flame, I would be sure to.



peaceful said:


> Your reply Cyphon. I am not the dellusional one here. The remote fact you negged me proves how desperate you are...



Attacking Cyphon's credibility would make me quick to neg you as well. One of the most respectable people on these forums, he's been a hell of a long time here, longer than you, and I'm pretty sure that all these posts of his indicate he can hold his own in a debate, while doing it fairly. Stick to the argument, instead of the debater.


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> So if it's not in favor of Itachi, it's not canon? Cyphon's been providing canon arguments this entire time, with a few assumptions that weren't too far-fetched. I highly suggest you don't attack his credibility, because whereas he may not flame, I would be sure to.
> 
> 
> 
> Attacking Cyphon's credibility would make me quick to neg you as well. One of the most respectable people on these forums, he's been a hell of a long time here, longer than you, and I'm pretty sure that all these posts of his indicate he can hold his own in a debate, while doing it fairly. Stick to the argument, instead of the debater.



No. What not logical is not canon. His arguments have been hilarious mixed with flamebaits. No matter how respectable he is when he posts like that he deserves to be criticized. By the way i am here long before you. Does this mean anything?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Only because _Naruto failed_ at employing it properly. Doesn't mean the method itself is void.



The method is based on surges of chakra. Naruto is arguably more capable of doing so than Jiraiya. This also doesn't negate the fact that neither Naruto nor his team mates realized he was in a Genjutsu until Itachi decided to _inform_ him that he wasn't going to use Tsukiyomi then and there. In a serious battle, Naruto would have hit the floor from a Tsukiyomi an instant after the finger Genjutsu landed.



Lady Tsunade said:


> They're stuck to him. I'm sure they'd feel his disturbed chakra. And a sure-fire sign



This connection of chakra sensitivity is speculation, particularly because the person themselves don't sense a disturbance in their chakra let alone an outsider. You also must acknowledge that they already have their hands full gathering natural energy for him and using attacks against Itachi. The chances of them instantly noticing and nullifying a Genjutsu aren't solid  



Lady Tsunade said:


> It's a possibility he's able. We don't know how fast they are in relation to each other, Jiraiya and Raikage.



But we do know whose feats are more impressive. It's also possible that Shikamaru is faster than Kakashi. But going off feats, we can guess. The same is true for Jiraiya and Itachi. Itachi has better feats. Not to mention Jiraiya won't see it coming as he's staring at Itachi's feet and even if he did, he lacks the synapses. Unless you're taking that possibility for granted. It's possible that Hinata has better reflexes than Neji after all.



Lady Tsunade said:


> So if it's not in favor of Itachi, it's not canon? Cyphon's been providing canon arguments this entire time, with a few assumptions that weren't too far-fetched. I highly suggest you don't attack his credibility, because whereas he may not flame, I would be sure to.



Saying that Itachi and Kisame _had_ to retreat because they both _surely_ would have died is laughable ignorance of canon and ignoring the large revelation of Itachi's characters and motives as a means to advocate Jiraiya's victory. _It shouldn't even be mentioned by a serious debater._ I may as well argue that Itachi could beat Rikodou because Madara, Itachi, and Chiyo said no one can defeat a Sharingan user alone. It's using a single statement above feats and facts that obviously negate it. It's detestable.     



Lady Tsunade said:


> Attacking Cyphon's credibility would make me quick to neg you as well. One of the most respectable people on these forums, he's been a hell of a long time here, longer than you, and I'm pretty sure that all these posts of his indicate he can hold his own in a debate, while doing it fairly. Stick to the argument, instead of the debater.



It's not a debate if you keep having to present the same information over and over again and I wasn't attacking his credibility; I was merely stating that if the manga's black and white didn't convince him Peaceful has no chance by doing so through interpretation. But you can go ahead and neg me, reputation is overrated and I'm not here for it.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> The method is based on surges of chakra. Naruto is arguably more capable of doing so than Jiraiya. This also doesn't negate the fact that neither Naruto nor his team mates realized he was in a Genjutsu until Itachi decided to _inform_ him that he wasn't going to use Tsukiyomi then and there. In a serious battle, Naruto would have hit the floor from a Tsukiyomi an instant after the finger Genjutsu landed.



It was based on halting or disturbing the flow of chakra. Naruto (in Part I) stated his chakra control sucked, as shown when he was trying to learn Rasengan.



> This connection of chakra sensitivity is speculation, particularly because the person themselves don't sense a disturbance in their chakra let alone an outsider. You also must acknowledge that they already have their hands full gathering natural energy for him and using attacks against Itachi. The chances of them instantly noticing and nullifying a Genjutsu aren't solid



Highly plausible speculation. They're attached to Jiraiya, just like Kyuubi is attached to Naruto. Note how Fukasaku said their were fused, implying they were now 'one' being.

And that didn't stop them from helping Jiraiya attack Pain.



> But we do know whose feats are more impressive. It's also possible that Shikamaru is faster than Kakashi. But going off feats, we can guess. The same is true for Jiraiya and Itachi. Itachi has better feats. Not to mention Jiraiya won't see it coming as he's staring at Itachi's feet and even if he did, he lacks the synapses. Unless you're taking that possibility for granted. It's possible that Hinata has better reflexes than Neji after all.[/QUOTE\
> 
> Whose feats are more impressive is a matter of opinion. Some thing Jiraiya's Hermit Mode puts him at top, some think Itachi's MS gives him the advantage.
> 
> ...


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## Panos (Oct 22, 2009)

"They stated it themselves. Saying that Itachi said that simply to save Jiraiya and not expose his position as a spy is speculation."

This is crap. You are totally ignoring the manga by saying this.


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## Federer (Oct 22, 2009)

> Highly plausible speculation. They're attached to Jiraiya, just like Kyuubi is attached to Naruto. Note how Fukasaku said their were fused, implying they were now 'one' being.
> 
> And that didn't stop them from helping Jiraiya attack Pain.



It is stated in the databook that Fukasaku and Shima only collect natural energy and pass it on Jiraiya, who transforms that energy into chakra, and uses it for his Sage Mode. 

If Itachi uses Tsukiyomi, Jiraiya looks into his eyes and receives the impact of torturing of 72 hours in the world of Tsukiyomi where Itachi controls mass/time/space, it's even possible that Jiraiya goes into a coma or can't use his body in a proper fashion. 

Which can also lead to the fact that if a user can't use senjutsu anymore, he will be turned into a stone frog. Fukasaku and Shima should stop providing natural energy to Jiraiya as fast as possible. 

When Pain Rikodu stuck his rod into SM Jiraiya, he was also messing up with his chakra, only Jiraiya felt it, Fukasaku then found it what was going on and destroyed the rod.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Highly plausible speculation. They're attached to Jiraiya, *just like Kyuubi is attached to Naruto*. Note how Fukasaku said their were fused, implying they were now 'one' being.



First, no. They are not just like the Kyubi is to Naruto. Secondly, even if they were, the Kyubi wasn't much help to Naruto on his Genjutsu track record. Even if they were 'one being' if Jiraiya doesn't realize his chakra is being fiddled with, it's unlikely that the frogs would instantly realize it. It's not plausible at all.   



Lady Tsunade said:


> And that didn't stop them from helping Jiraiya attack Pain.



Maybe you should reread what I had written? Between gathering Sage chakra and attacking Itachi, it's unlikely that they would notice a subtle disturbance in Jiraiya's chakra that Jiraiya himself fails to notice.



Lady Tsunade said:


> Whose feats are more impressive is a matter of opinion. Some thing Jiraiya's Hermit Mode puts him at top, some think Itachi's MS gives him the advantage.



No, in speed, moving faster than the Sharingan can register is pretty much top tier. Moving fast, but not so fast that Pein can't react to it, is good, but it doesn't compare. Particularly because the Rinnegan doesn't have that type of advantage against speed as the Sharingan does.



Lady Tsunade said:


> They stated it themselves. Saying that Itachi said that simply to save Jiraiya and not expose his position as a spy is speculation.



Pein said Jiraiya could have killed him and Madara said Itachi could have killed him. So what? I highly doubt either could do what those individuals said they could do. Unlike the Itachi matter, neither of those characters were secretly still agents for the leaf who were only in town to save their brother. 



Lady Tsunade said:


> Well, if you rebut with the same thing, Cyphon has no choice but to try and reiterate, make the meaning more clear. It's a stalemate, since both sides stubbornly refuse to admit or make small allowances.



He's already made allowances on the point, but has since retracted them. You can understand my disinclination to continue our debate if we start from square one each and every day.


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## the box (Oct 22, 2009)

peaceful said:


> His goal was to warn Konoha remind Sasuke while avoiding any conflict and espcially fatal conflict. This point proves wrong your favourite statement that Itachi admitted Jiraiyas superiority.



lol uchiha prove itachi didnt mean what he said




Illusory said:


> You're better off dropping it, Peaceful. If Cyphon won't read cannon, he won't read your posts.



you arnt reliable in terms of the manga your the guy who said kimmimaru could beat akatski members


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

the box said:


> you arnt reliable in terms of the manga your the guy who said kimmimaru could beat akatski members.



I shall make a wanking thread about Kimimaro in the future and you, my brother, shall be my first disciple.


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## the box (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I shall make a wanking thread about Kimimaro in the future and you, my brother, shall be my first disciple.



rightttt......and ill stop lol uchiha 

and then sasuke will be the main character.

itachi will rise from the grave and become the FV 

madara will stop being fail



/fanfiction


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Itachi could beat Jiraiya without fighting seriously and dying.



Jiraiya would rape Itachi with his hands chopped off.



Do you have any proof against my toad gourd barrier argument.

None of you Itachifans do. 



You post that Itachi one shotted Akatsuki members.

But the funny thing is that Jiraiya did do the same thing too. To two akatsuki members.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Do you have any proof against my toad gourd barrier argument.



What was it again?



Dariustwinblade said:


> You post that Itachi one shotted Akatsuki members. But the funny thing is that Jiraiya did do the same thing too. To two akatsuki members.



I never said Jiraiya couldn't or hasn't. But the opponents Itachi has one-paneled are in Jiraiya's league and going from what we've seen in canon Jiraiya has no other option but to look at Itachi or else he's just horribly overconfident. In either case, the reason Itachi didn't humiliate him in the hotel was because of his hidden agenda. I'm all for arguing Jiraiya with full knowledge and having trained with Gai for months to follow foot movement to fight Itachi. But then he can't see Amatarasu coming which he probably wouldn't be able to react to anyways. Jiraiya would have a much better chance of beating Pein with or without knowledge than he would against Itachi with or without knowledge because of his style.


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## EJ (Oct 22, 2009)

the box said:


> rightttt......and ill stop lol uchiha
> 
> and then sasuke will be the main character.
> 
> ...



 You should get out more.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

Time to debate. 



Illusory said:


> First, no. They are not just like the Kyubi is to Naruto. Secondly, even if they were, the Kyubi wasn't much help to Naruto on his Genjutsu track record. Even if they were 'one being' if Jiraiya doesn't realize his chakra is being fiddled with, it's unlikely that the frogs would instantly realize it. It's not plausible at all.



Well, Kyuubi is sealed. His chakra is sealed away mostly. I'm thinking that they'd rather not have him interfere in possible genjutsus affecting Naruto as opposed to letting Kyuubi's chakra run rampant and turn Naruto into a force of destruction that would obliterate most. 

And why exactly won't Jiraiya realise his chakra is being fiddled with?



> Maybe you should reread what I had written? Between gathering Sage chakra and attacking Itachi, it's unlikely that they would notice a subtle disturbance in Jiraiya's chakra that Jiraiya himself fails to notice.


 
To my understanding, if I can remember off the top of my head, Genjutsu works through manipulating the senses through chakra. It won't be a _subtle_ difference.



> No, in speed, moving faster than the Sharingan can register is pretty much top tier. Moving fast, but not so fast that Pein can't react to it, is good, but it doesn't compare. Particularly because the Rinnegan doesn't have that type of advantage against speed as the Sharingan does.



I'm tempted to claim Rinnegan >>> Sharingan...but a whole flamewar would erupt. 

So I do concede to your point. 



> Pein said Jiraiya could have killed him and Madara said Itachi could have killed him. So what? I highly doubt either could do what those individuals said they could do. Unlike the Itachi matter, neither of those characters were secretly still agents for the leaf who were only in town to save their brother.



So Amaterasu couldn't have incinerated Madara? Jiraiya with full knowledge couldn't have picked apart the Paths in a corresponding manner to ensure him the win?



> He's already made allowances on the point, but has since retracted them. You can understand my disinclination to continue our debate if we start from square one each and every day.



Should people repeat the same points, it's going to get nowhere.


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## Soul (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> The Jiraiya side has a cannon statement made by Itachi that says a draw is the most likely outcome, and Itachi tards *speculate* (bold and underline for importance) that he was lying.



So, you think that Itachi and Kisame couldn't win versus Jiraiya, even with more back up?
{And remember that Itachi doesn't had knowledge on Sage Mode}.

I do think that he was lying.


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## the box (Oct 22, 2009)

Espionage said:


> You should get out more.



your sig creeps me the fuck out. also stop flamming


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> So, you think that Itachi and Kisame couldn't win versus Jiraiya, even with more back up?
> {And remember that Itachi doesn't had knowledge on Sage Mode}.
> 
> I do think that he was lying.



I don't think he was lying. Jiraiya probably could've taken them. Remember that with Sage Mode, he was on an entirely different level. 

Though Itachi and Kisame would've probably given Jiraiya a fight.


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## Soul (Oct 22, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> I don't think he was lying. Jiraiya probably could've taken them.



Without Sage Mode?



> Remember that with Sage Mode, he was on an entirely different level.



Itachi didn't had knowledge on Jiraiya's Sage Mode, nor Kisame.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Without Sage Mode?



Perhaps in some scenarios, without it. With it? Most definitely.



> Itachi didn't had knowledge on Jiraiya's Sage Mode, nor Kisame.



All the better.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> So, you think that Itachi and Kisame couldn't win versus Jiraiya, even with more back up?
> {And remember that Itachi doesn't had knowledge on Sage Mode}.
> 
> I do think that he was lying.



He had no reason to be lying. 

You can argue and speculate that he was wrong, but I see no reason for him to be lying.


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## Soul (Oct 22, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Perhaps in some scenarios, without it. With it? Most definitely.



Really?

In an "Itachi { while non restricted} and Kisame versus Base Jiraiya" match, Jiraiya should win?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Really?
> 
> In an "Itachi { while non restricted} and Kisame versus Base Jiraiya" match, Jiraiya should win?



Hence why I said _some scenarios_. So long as Itachi doesn't pull out Susanoo, and perhaps not the worst of MS jutsu, Jiraiya should win. Gamabunta, Yomi Numa, Rasengan, and a variety of other jutsu are much too versatile.


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## Soul (Oct 22, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Hence why I said _some scenarios_. So long as Itachi doesn't pull out Susanoo, and perhaps not the worst of MS jutsu, Jiraiya should win. Gamabunta, Yomi Numa, Rasengan, and a variety of other jutsu are much too versatile.



So you do think that Jiraiya has a decent shot?


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> So you do think that Jiraiya has a decent shot?



Very much so, provided certain things are not in play.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Well this thread went from sad to pathetic. Am I an Itachi tard, as Cyphon liked to throw that term around a lot, for thinking that Base Jiraiya couldn't beat an unrestricted healthy Itachi while starting the match staring in to his eyes? Or are you guys the "tards?" What if I added a Bijuu without a tail who is likely stronger than an unrestricted, Hachibi and Killerbee in to the match? A base Jiraiya could almost certainly win, right? This is signature worthy, yes.

Even with Hermit Mode his speed feats aren't even remotely comparable. They're like Sasuke's speed feats against Deidara. He appeared fast to that opponent, but I'd like to see Animal Realm's qualifications. Itachi, on the other hand, routinely moves too fast for the Sharingan. Jiraiya doesn't have the reflexes and won't be staring at Itachi's face to know Amatarasu is coming to avoid it. He doesn't know about Susano or the Sword of Totsuka. He doesn't know about finger Genjutsu which can layer Tsukiyomi. He doesn't even have the fighting style Gai developed to stare at an opponents feet. He gets hit eventually and unlike Orochimaru or Tsunade won't recover. He dies to the incredibly gimped Itachi that fought Sasuke.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Well this thread went from sad to pathetic. Am I an Itachi tard, as Cyphon liked to throw that term around a lot, for thinking that Base Jiraiya couldn't beat an unrestricted healthy Itachi while starting the match staring in to his eyes? Or are you guys the "tards?" What if I added a Bijuu without a tail who is likely stronger than an unrestricted, Hachibi and Killerbee in to the match? A base Jiraiya could almost certainly win, right? This is signature worthy, yes.



............


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Is this one of those moments where you go, "Wow, I am a tard for saying that."


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Itachi, on the other hand, routinely moves too fast for the Sharingan.



Itachi's hands move too fast for the Sharingan. I am surprised you haven't picked up on this yet.



> Jiraiya doesn't have the reflexes and won't be staring at Itachi's face to know Amatarasu is coming to avoid it.



Proof of this please.



> He doesn't know about finger Genjutsu which can layer Tsukiyomi.





Yeah, if we allow you to make up techniques.

Anyway, Jiraiya is immune to all genjutsu (based off of the manga I am changing it to), so genjutsu is out for Itachi.



> He gets hit eventually and unlike Orochimaru or Tsunade won't recover. He dies to the incredibly gimped Itachi that fought Sasuke.



Proof please.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon, you either have amnesia or you're just playing dumb. All of these questions I have answered for you multiple times. If you'd like to know the answers, click the link that I have since offered to you. If not, please ignore my posts and I shall discuss with individuals with a sharper memory so as not to waste my time.


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## On and On (Oct 22, 2009)

My boy Itachi takes this shit 

He can distract and defend as necessary with Susano'o while a karasubunshin or kagebunshin bind said foe with genjutsu, which Jiraiya sucks in. Easy.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

So you can't rebut them?

Concession accepted. 

Nice try and thanks for debating.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Ignorance is bliss, huh? If you'd like to search my posts you can find my responses to those inquiries the last time you asked those exact same questions. You ended by acknowledging that Itachi had a fast shushin, but that everyone's shushin could escape Sharingan detection. Your reasoning for the Tsukiyomi layering was even shakier and went directly against the provided scan. Itachi was just telling him he couldn't use it for shiggles even though he would be unable to use it in those circumstances anyways. 

As for Jiraiya dodging Amatarasu, the onus of proof is on you to provide a scan that indicates that his synapses are as fast as the Raikages so he can stare in to the Mangyekou and is both reflexive and fast enough to react to Amatarasu. Without that, you're just writing fanfiction. Not that this surprises me now that I know you think Base Jiraiya could beat a healthy unrestricted Itachi and Kisame rather than believe what Madara has said.

But sure, please, accept my concession to your unique and fresh rebuttal.


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## EJ (Oct 22, 2009)

It depends on how the fight begins I guess. 

I need to read the first couple of pages to make an accurate decision.



the box said:


> your sig creeps me the fuck out. also stop flamming



 Honestly, A sig flame? 

lol, K bud. 

EDIT:



> As for Jiraiya dodging Amatarasu, the onus of proof is on you to provide a scan that indicates that his synapses are as fast as the Raikages so he can stare in to the Mangyekou and is both reflexive and fast enough to react to Amatarasu.



Dosen't HM increase the users Speed?

Then I guess it could be argued that Jirayia could dodge Ameratasu.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Espionage said:


> Dosen't HM increase the users Speed?
> 
> Then I guess it could be argued that Jirayia could dodge Ameratasu.



Dodging AM is reliant on three key pieces

1. Shushin as fast as the Raikage (faster than the Sharingan)
2. Having reflexes like the Raikage (faster than light)
3. Being able to look the Sharingan in the eyes

Jiraiya can do none of these things. Saying he can is fanfiction. He was shown to be fast against Animal Realm just like Sasuke was shown to be fast against Haku. There are no legitimate speed feats for Jiraiya to put him on level with the Raikage. There are no mentions or feats of his reflexes. And he definitely can not stare the Sharingan in the eyes.

This is just to dodge Sasuke's Sharingan. Ironically enough, Itachi's reflexes are faster than lightning. Itachi's shushin is faster than the Sharingan. Since his movements are faster, due to his reflexes and quick firing synapses, this also means his eye muscles move faster meaning his Amatarasu converges more accurately and the Raikage would be more hardpressed to dodge it, particularly because Itachi can move while Amatarasu is moving and his own shushin surpasses Sharingan insight.


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> 1. Being as fast as the Raikage (faster than the Sharingan)



Raikage was only faster than the Sharingan when he prepared a "super" shunshin. Based off of what they discussed about it, Jiraiya is certainly capable.



> 2. Having reflexes like the Raikage (faster than lightning)



We don't know how Jiraiya matches up here. There is really no set thing to compare to.



> 3. Being able to look the Sharingan in the eyes



He has Ma and Pa in SM and would be fine looking him in the eye. If he used Tsukiyami it would probably be a different story. However, nothing said Raikage was immune to genjutsu.



> He was shown to be fast against Animal Realm just like Sasuke was shown to be fast against Haku.



I am not sure what you mean by this comparison, but just to add to it, he showed he was fast vs both Human and Animal Pain.


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## EJ (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Dodging AM is reliant on three key pieces
> 
> 1. Being as fast as the Raikage (faster than the Sharingan)
> 2. Having reflexes like the Raikage (faster than lightning)
> ...



 I guess it comes down to if Jirayia has the reflexes then.

For him to know if Itachi is using AM, he is going to have to look at his face and his hand signals. That could land a Tsukiyomi on him. But we would also have to keep in mind that Itachi may have to let AM die off for him to use Tsukiyomi on Jirayia. It would not be that simple.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Why would Jiraiya would look up in to Itachi's eyes at the precise moment Itachi decides to land his attack that you need to have reflexes that are faster than light to avoid after a battle of carefully avoiding his eyes. Jiraiya meets none of the requirements and it is, unfortunately, that simple. Unless someone gives me a speed feat that beats 

Anyone can _look_ fast against a slow opponent. But unless you have something substantial like moving faster than the Sharingan or outmoving someone with terrific speed feats of their own you have nothing. Jiraiya's speed is good, it's better than the slower Pein bodies, but it's not Raikage or Itachi good.


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## EJ (Oct 22, 2009)

^What?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Espionage said:


> ^What?



Here is how Jiraiya prevails

0. He's already in Hermit Mode with full knowledge and preparation
1. He has trained himself in the art of Gai.
2. He uses the art of Gai to avoid Tsukiyomi.
3. He can see Itachi's handseals... and recognizes that it's AM... somehow.
a. Note that he does so while only looking at his _feet_ to avoid finger Genjutsu.
4. At this point he plot hole knows Amatarasu is coming.
5. With fanfiction, Raikage speed and reflexes he shushins.
6. He moves so fast even Itachi's lightning fast synapses can't follow
a. This is like Raikage x 2 just so you know
7. And chops Itachi dead faster than Kirin so Itachi can't Susano.
a. So he moves faster than light at this point, which is impossible.
8. Itachi plot holes Susano after Jiraiya's teleport kill
9. Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa and owns Itachi again 
a. Don't ask me why he didn't kill Pein, Orochimaru, or Hanzou with it.


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## EJ (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Here is how you're saying Jiraiya prevails
> 
> 1. He has trained himself in the art of Gai.
> 2. He uses the art of Gai to avoid Tsukiyomi.
> ...



No, I said if Jirayia knows about AM, he will know he will have to look at Itachi's hand signals and his face to see when AM will be used.

If I had to give it to anyone it would be Itachi. I just wanted to read the earlier post to see if anyone made great defences for Jirayia.

But you do have a point, Jirayia wouldn't move faster then Kirin. Itachi had very great timing with Susanno.

Having a perfected Susanno on the verge of dieing, tanking Kirin, etc.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

So now Jiraiya's survival is pivoted on him seeing *Itachi's* _handseals?_ Nice. This is also with him not being in danger of finger Genjutsu or landing a  through a finger Genjutsu.


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## EJ (Oct 22, 2009)

Which leaves him open for Tsukiyomi. That is the point I was trying to make.


I should had been more specific in my earlier post.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Raikage was only faster than the Sharingan when he prepared a "super" shunshin. Based off of what they discussed about it, Jiraiya is certainly capable.



What are you speaking of here?


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## Cyphon (Oct 22, 2009)

Illusory said:


> What are you speaking of here?



Here is what I am saying. 

1. We know Raikage was only too fast for Sasuke when he prepared his SS2 form and kept his chakra spiked. The rest of the time he was moving at speeds Sasuke can follow.

2. We know base Raikage was slow enough for Juugo to react to and block.

So lets say for a second Raikage and SM Jiraiya are relatively close in top speed, since we really have no definitive way to say 1 is faster than the other. 

Raikage saw the MS and prepared himself for something big. Karin noted he had his chakra spiked to high levels.

Now, lets move on to what we know about Jiraiya.

1. He too has lots of chakra. In fact, it even replenishes based on SM, so we can (at the very least) compare it to Raikage, even if you think Raikage still has more.

2. SM chakra makes your ninjutsu stronger/better, since its a stronger chakra. Shunshin (what Raikage used to dodge Amaterasu) is a ninjutsu. 

All that being said, I am saying that Jiraiya is capable of reaching the speed Raikage did, because 

A. He has stronger chakra via SM and 

B. Has enough chakra to use high levels on 1 Shunshin.

Again though, this is saying that he is prepared to face the MS/Amaterasu like Raikage was. 

I was never arguing he was constantly that fast, but neither was Raikage. Raikage prepared using high chakra levels to Shunshin, and Jiraiya is certainly capable of doing that since he too has tons of chakra and even stronger chakra at that. 

I don't care to argue how likely it is and all that because it really comes down to how the 2 would attempt to battle each other.


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## HUNTER EMS (Oct 22, 2009)

Is this a joke? Jiraiya doesnt stande a chance against Itachi.

1.Itachi would have activated Susanoo straight away because he knows how dangerous Jiraiya is. Jiraiya is to slow for Itachi,Itachi was fast enough to summon Susanoo and protect himself from Sasukes Kirin. Fast enough to defend with Susanoo against speed of lightning! With Itachis ability to perfectly predict his enemies movements with his sharingan and to be able to summon Susanoo in an instant,Jiraiya has 0.01% chance of damaging/killing Itachi with his ninjutsu,taijutsu or summonings. Susanoo>>>>>>ninjutsu and taijutsu. Itachi is also a genjutsu expert,he reversed Kurenais genjutsu and stopped Orochimarus living corpse reincarnation with a genjutsu. So you could say that his genjutsuproof. All of Jiraiyas attacks would be pointless.

2.Now,with Itachi being able to nullify all of Jiraiyas attacks with Susanoo and the yata mirror,how is Jiraiya going to defend against Itachi? Jiraiya focuses much more on offense then defence,Jiraiya has no protection from Itachis Amaterasu,Tsukuyomi or Susanoo. Susanoo with the totsuka sword can OHKO any opponent,just like he OHKOed Orochimaru. This is the translation about Susanoo from the DB. "There's a reason why Susanoo can boast perfect flawlessness in its offense and defense: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands. *The Sword of Totsuka* in its right hand,which will mow down any kind of enemy*, and *the Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back.* Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy". There is nothing Jiraiya can do to defend against Susanoo. Orochimaru with his Hydra technique didnt stande a chance,Jiraiya wouldnt neither. People who think he could beat Itachi are people who have him as a avatar.


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## hmph (Oct 22, 2009)

There's a difference between sharingans, not all are the same... one user's is better than another, what they can help the user catch is most likely different.

Anyways, about dodging Amaterasu. It doesn't take 'Raikage speed.' We know Raikage can, but we don't know the cut off, nor do we know how he compares to Jiraiya. Also, . Sasuke was almost able to dodge it himself. He was certainly able to respond to it with a jutsu. If Jiraiya can do the same (and he sure as hell should be able to) stopping Ama would be easy. Any ability that can block line of sight should be able to do, he could fire off a katon at Itachi and it'd stop Amaterasu. Or use a bunshin. Or anything else expendable.

Another factor I think people are missing is basically Itachi's time limit. He'd have to use Susano'o to survive 30 seconds in this fight, since Jiraiya's AoE ninjutsu spam doesn't lend itself to being dodged. That basically means he'll spend the entire fight maintaining a very powerful jutsu and deteriorating as the fight progresses, and he doesn't have as much stamina as Sasuke to boot. And that's even assuming his Susano'o can deal with what Jiraiya can put out, a boiling river of oil might just go around the Yata mirror and through Susano'o.

I've said this before in a different Itachi vs Jiraiya thread, but HM Jiraiya has greater ninjutsu, taijutsu, stamina, intelligence, willpower, and comparable genjutsu and speed. He has an inferiority only in defensive abilities from Susano'o. Starting Jiraiya off in HM really just screws over Itachi completely.


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## Soul (Oct 23, 2009)

Illusory said:


> He doesn't know about finger Genjutsu which can layer Tsukiyomi.



I don't recall this one. If you post a manga scan for that; Itachi wins with ease


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2009)

"Don't worry Naruto, I won't use the Mangyekou Sharingan... or it would be more correct to say that I can't use it at the "


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## Soul (Oct 23, 2009)

Illusory said:


> "Don't worry Naruto, I won't use the Mangyekou Sharingan... or it would be more correct to say that I can't use it at the "



The problem here is that we aren't sure if that one was a layer; he could use it while Naruto is being affected by the Genjustu.



Genjutsu is pretty hard to understand, don't you agree?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> The problem here is that we aren't sure if that one was a layer; he could use it while Naruto is being affected by the Genjustu. Genjutsu is pretty hard to understand, don't you agree?



Perhaps I'm missing something, but casting a Genjutsu inside a Genjutsu constitutes as "layering" correct? It should be done fairly easily as the person is at your mercy both mentally and physically for a few moments at the very least, following it up with a mental attack should be even easier, as you are already in control of the person's mind, than a  attack. So if Jiraiya is captured for a moment via the finger, then a tsukiyomi could follow almost immediately afterwards. Itachi was about to follow up the illusion with a sleeping Genjutsu, for which he made a seal for.


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## the box (Oct 23, 2009)

> Illusory said:
> 
> 
> > Dodging AM is reliant on three key pieces
> ...


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2009)

the box said:


> or just where clothes, orstayingoutof 5 meters when its not instant



Five meters is sixteen feet. Jiraiya has no knowledge of its speed or delivery, only of the flame itself. Furthermore, his *Amatarasu* is not Sasuke's Amatarasu. Itachi's instantly  a hole large enough for him and Kisame to escape through a fireproof wall. Sasuke's didn't really burn Karin's clothes. We know from his speed and perception (his eyes could likely see his movements at least) that his eyes also move faster than Sasuke's which implies that his _Amatarasu moves faster_.



the box said:


> jiraya was bouncing off walls and leaving streaks, then fliging over to ghost realm and using rasengan. jiraya has more speed feats than sasuke



Give me a scan more impressive than .




the box said:


> his shushin is faster than sharingan? no no it is not sir. his HAND SIGNS but not his shushin, why do i say this. oh ill tell you (read the uchiha fight  )



People underestimate his speed most of all. He has moved too fast for Sasuke's Sharingan, not unlike the Raikage, but with Ninjutsu to boot. He created a clone, that assumably was created beside him like every other clone in the manga, and had the clone move out of the range of sight in the  of a shuriken war that *completely* escaped Sasuke's Sharingan. The only other explanation is that he summoned a single clone in the corner of the room which has never before been shown in the manga and denies Sasuke and Kakashi's admiration of his speed. If that were the case, it's a deadly form of teleportation, especially when those clones that can teleport behind people and cut them like Minato can also explode. It's much safer to simply acknowledge that his shushin is faster than the Raikage's as Sasuke didn't even register the clones presence or summoning. He also pulled something vaguely similar on Kurenai and Kakashi in their first conflict. I hope you're keeping his handicaps and misconceptions in mind as well throughout all of this. Why people see him throwing shurikens and blocking everyone of Sasuke's at punching range and still forming an incredibly fast Kage Bushin but don't believe he has the reflexes Sasori to dodge Sasori's projectiles... Oh yeah, and *his* synapses fire faster than  like the Raikages, implying a natural resistance to Genjutsu.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 23, 2009)

Illusory said:


> What was it again?



If Itachi tries the same stunt as he did against Oro and Deidera he gets pawned faster than Animal realm.



Itachi is cocky enough to try the same stunt he tried to pull of against Orochimaru.






And then







And yes, that is what will be both IC and is* very likely* to happen if those two faced off.
 Itachi steps into Jiriya's barrier and gets fucked.

Can you deny that Itachi has a good chance of getting tricked into stepping into Jiraiya's barrier.





> I never said Jiraiya couldn't or hasn't. But the opponents Itachi has one-paneled are in Jiraiya's league



Fristly Konan could beat Orochimaru , tell me what does Oro have that could kill Konan other than edo tensei. name me one move that oro could use to kill Konan, while Konan can kill Oro until he can't regenerate no more. Slice him till he dies. Suffocate him to death.


And Kisame is not in league with Deidera,right!



> and going from what we've seen in canon Jiraiya has no other option but to look at Itachi or else he's just horribly overconfident.
> In either case, the reason Itachi didn't humiliate him in the hotel was because of his hidden agenda.




Does these eyes look like he was . More like he was cautious, he knows Itachi is the prodigy of the Uchiha clan, and he broke the genjutsu out of the woman. So it was safe to assume that Jiraiya knew about Itachi and was prepared. Tell me what was stopping Jiraiya form Yomi Numaing both of those guys inside the hotel. Jiraiya could have utterly humilitated Itachi, before yhe fight started, plot prevented him form that.
 Can you deny that Jiraiya could have Yomi Numaed Itachi to a swampy grave before the fight even started. Jiraiya needed to know wether they were after Naruto or not and he did have to help Naruto. And save Sasuke


Simple fact he knows about wtf the is Sharingan.
Itachi can use genjutsu. Should suffice that he was not overconfident. The only in the series that said that 

"you can never overestimate your opponents too much."

DB say that he is one of the most careful shinobi.


> -Even in the middle of a battle to the death, the comical pauses are guaranteed!! A joyful way to encourage himself!!
> 
> - Inside of Naruto, a calamity slumbers. Even though he's recognized Naruto's talent, *he hasn't forgotten to be cautious..*
> 
> - With his left arm gone, he is no longer in a condition to fight. Despite this, Jiraiya keeps up the challenge!!



So yes Jiraiya is a carefull Shinobi. His will of fire shall prevail 




> I'm all for arguing Jiraiya with full knowledge and having trained with Gai for months to follow foot movement to fight Itachi.



HMM, Jiriaya can fight with the barrier detection jutsu, and he himself is carefull. What is your counter argument to yomi numa, then we talk about something else.




> But then he can't see Amatarasu coming which he probably wouldn't be able to react to anyways.



Facts:

1. Amaterasu doesn't burn anything Instantly.

2. Amaterasu was blocked by gaara's sand.

3. Amaterasu is avoided by the simple Kawarimi.

4. Amaterasu was sealed and taken in for further studys. By Jiraiya.

5. Amaterasu does not form instantly on the target.

6. Amaterasu is short ranged, and has to travel to the opponent. So the longer the target range the harder it will be to hit. Jiraiya is a long range fighter, as well as a short ranged one.

7. To dodge Amaterasu, you need to be faster than the user. HM Jiriaya faster than Itachi. And by faster I mean their heads have to turn as fast HM Jiraiya.

8. Jiraiya has a good fast defensive jutsu,   


conclusion: Jiriaya could easily block it in a way similar to Gaara. And then send it back to Itachi. Dodge it with his superior speed, kawarimi out of the move. Block Itachi's line of sight  by using Smoke bombs.
 to block amaterasu, unlike Sasuke he has much greater stamina.


You say Itachi is so great that his handseals are faster than Jiraiya, but the funny thing is most of Jiraiya's justu dosen't require any handseals.


Jiriaya's handsealless jutsu>>>>Itachi's justu that requires handseal. 



> Jiraiya would have a much better chance of beating Pein with or without knowledge than he would against Itachi with or without knowledge because of his style.



And Itachi is only one person, Pain is six, the reason why Pain survived the barrier jutsu was because, the first person who sets foot gets effected. Unlike Pain Itachi is only one person. He is almost certain to get killed in Jiraiya's acid.


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## the box (Oct 23, 2009)

> Illusory said:
> 
> 
> > Five meters is sixteen feet. Jiraiya has no knowledge of its speed or delivery, only of the flame itself. Furthermore, his *Amatarasu* is not Sasuke's Amatarasu. Itachi's instantly  a hole large enough for him and Kisame to escape through a fireproof wall. Sasuke's didn't really burn Karin's clothes. We know from his speed and perception (his eyes could likely see his movements at least) that his eyes also move faster than Sasuke's which implies that his _Amatarasu moves faster_.
> ...


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 23, 2009)

Just to put this out there, one thing I've noticed about the technique, Amaterasu, is that the more the user concentrates on an object, the quicker it burns. So, Itachi being able to blast a whole through Jiraiya's barrier is commendable not only because of his skill but because he concentrated completely on it. 

Now unlike that point in time, Sasuke utilized Amaterasu on Killer Bee (point of focus) and Karin (caught by a random flame) was caught by it. Under normal circumstances, she should have burned instantly...but she didn't entirely melt away as quick as the barrier Jiraiya had formulated (which I would presume is tougher than Karin).

All of that leads me to believe that Amaterasu needs to be concentrated on an object for the full brunt of it's force to be utilized. On it's own the flames will burn away but it'll be much slower.

In terms of it's range, I'd stick with the "5 meters and then it needs to be followed up to their point of target" rule.


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## Ra (Oct 23, 2009)

So what if Itachi killed ma and pa with genjutsu that chopped off orochimaru arm?


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## Cyphon (Oct 23, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> So what if Itachi killed ma and pa with genjutsu that chopped off orochimaru arm?



Genjutsu doesn't kill outside of Tsukiyami....and even that isn't guaranteed. So if you are asking what if he uses genjutsu on one of them, its the same as everything else. 1 of the other 2 people break them out. 

Itachi chopped Oro's arm off in the real world while Oro attempted to break the genjutsu. The genjutsu itself didn't chop his arm off


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 23, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> So what if Itachi killed ma and pa with genjutsu that chopped off orochimaru arm?



And what if Jiraiya kills him in acid after the arm is chopped off.


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## Ra (Oct 23, 2009)

> Genjutsu doesn't kill outside of Tsukiyami....and even that isn't guaranteed. So if you are asking what if he uses genjutsu on one of them, its the same as everything else. 1 of the other 2 people break them out.
> 
> Itachi chopped Oro's arm off in the real world while Oro attempted to break the genjutsu. The genjutsu itself didn't chop his arm off



This can't happen to Jiraiya? While he's attempting to break out?

Yes there is ma and pa, but itachi has shown to execute ninjutsus as bait to follow up  right behind the opponent to finish with a kunai, in which case ma and pa won't keep up. Can this be the case for ma and pa?



> And what if Jiraiya kills him in acid after the arm is chopped off.



That jutsu is such an ambiguous jutsu, I need a scan or databook entry on that.


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## Cyphon (Oct 23, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> This can't happen to Jiraiya? While he's attempting to break out?



If Jiraiya was on his own? Sure, it COULD happen. But so could Itachi ending up in a swamp. Where are you going with this?



> Yes there is ma and pa, but itachi has shown to execute ninjutsus as bait to follow up  right behind the opponent to finish with a kunai, in which case ma and pa won't keep up. Can this be the case for ma and pa?



No, I don't believe it can. Itachi is not going to be able to enough that all 3 of them wouldn't notice. 

If he goes behind them Pa will most likely see him, as we saw vs Pain etc...


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## Ra (Oct 23, 2009)

> If Jiraiya was on his own? Sure, it COULD happen. But so could Itachi ending up in a swamp. Where are you going with this?



Why would Jiraiya make a swamp when he's focusing on breaking out the genjutsu. Since he's also inside the genjutsu how does know what location to make the swamp to entrap itachi?



> No, I don't believe it can. Itachi is not going to be able to enough that all 3 of them wouldn't notice.
> 
> If he goes behind them Pa will most likely see him, as we saw vs Pain etc...



There's only 2 pair of eyes considering Jiraiya would be in a genjutsu. The frogs would be preoccupied with the ninjutsu bait and itachi has shown the ability to appear behind a person.


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## Cyphon (Oct 23, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> Why would Jiraiya make a swamp when he's focusing on breaking out the genjutsu. Since he's also inside the genjutsu how does know what location to make the swamp to entrap itachi?



I am talking about before a genjutsu. The fight doesn't start with Jiraiya in one.



> There's only 2 pair of eyes considering Jiraiya would be in a genjutsu. The frogs would be preoccupied with the ninjutsu bait and itachi has shown the ability to appear behind a person.



They wouldn't necessarily both be focused on the bait and every ninja has shown the ability to appear behind someone. Its called a sneak attack.



GrandKitaro777 said:


> itachi has shown the ability to appear behind a person.


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## Kinjishi (Oct 23, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> itachi has shown the ability to appear behind a person.



Whoa, that's quite an accomplishment considering HM Jiraiya was only able to do it a handful of times against three individuals with perfect coordination and teamwork. 






:ho


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## Vergil642 (Oct 23, 2009)

Kinjishi said:


> Whoa, that's quite an accomplishment considering HM Jiraiya was only able to do it a handful of times against three individuals with perfect coordination and teamwork.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Each time using smoke bombs, distractions and a KB (so much for Pain seeing chakra ), never with pure speed.

:ho

And I swear to god I'll actually post or respond to a post sometime soon, I'm just really busy right now


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2009)

the box said:


> itachis ama was barley ableto catch sasuke during there fight.



Because he was serious against Sasuke, right ? 



the box said:


> ama is shit cant even burn fooder ninja, little girls, or lol sand



That's Sasuke. Do you have something coming out of Itachi's eyeballs that didn't incinerate a wall or the lower half of  a body on contact? In a Sasuke v HM Jiraiya thread you can bring this up all you like, Box lol.



the box said:


> holy shit itachi fought haku. unless you are saying genin sasuke is faster than itachi,killerbee,jiraya and riakage. i havemany scans but if you read the manga you should be able to already know




My point is do you have anything concrete exemplifying better speed than Itachi who, as I have shown, can perform jutsu and shushin faster than the Sharingan can register? Or do you just have a bunch of scans, like this one of Sasuke, that make him look cool by being fast against a not-so-fast opponent? I'm not saying he's not fast, but he can't shushin like Itachi or the Raikage - he doesn't have the feats for it. In fact, upon looking through those scans, he didn't use raw speed, but trickery, and it showed when they still blocked his attacks when they saw it coming.



the box said:


> his hand signs were not his movment(pre kakashi was able to track his body movements) also sasuke was able to keep track of him in there tiajutsu exchange.



Their Taijutsu exchange was Genjutsu. Kakashi specifically said he couldn't keep track of his movements, and it's beside the point of his shushin feat. We know that he was an agent of Konoha so him not killing them should be explained as I hope we can both agree that he was pushing those two Jounin fairly easily purely through speed.



the box said:


> ??????? that was hand sign



Bringing the clone is was a handseal, yes. But having the clone move out of range was a shushin. Unless the clone can be summoned twenty feet away, which is teleportation and Itachi is the only one with that feat meaning he just has to summon a clone, stab, boom, and it's over. In either case, Box, you can't deny his mobility.



the box said:


> and riakage would shit on him to



When both of their reflexes fire as fast as light and when Itachi's shushin has a better speed feat than the Raikage's? The dividing difference is that Itachi is a genius and has a Sharingan? Is this just Itachi hate or are you legitimately arguing? The Raikage's base speed isn't far above Sasuke's, this showed when he was tagged with Chidori, but his jutsu speed is incredible.


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## Ra (Oct 23, 2009)

> I am talking about before a genjutsu. The fight doesn't start with Jiraiya in one.



But Jiraiya is bound to be put in Genjutsu before he pulls out Swamp of the Underworld, and pulling out Swamp of the underworld at the start of the match is out of character. Jiraiya has no knowledge, so he's bound to look into itachi eyes.



> They wouldn't necessarily both be focused on the bait and every ninja has shown the ability to appear behind someone. Its called a sneak attack.



It's still a good tactic to kill off enemies effectively, and why wouldn't ma and pa be focused on the bait?

Don't tell me you didn't pick up the hyperbole when I said, "itachi appeared" behind a enemy?


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## Cyphon (Oct 23, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> But Jiraiya is bound to be put in Genjutsu before he pulls out Swamp of the Underworld, and pulling out Swamp of the underworld at the start of the match is out of character. Jiraiya has no knowledge, so he's bound to look into itachi eyes.



Again, you will need to prove he would end up in a genjutsu if you are so sure he will.



> It's still a good tactic to kill off enemies effectively, and why wouldn't ma and pa be focused on the bait?



1. 1 of them can stop it while the other one watches Itachi.

2. They are like 100 years old and they may be able to recognize bait.



> Don't tell me you didn't pick up the hyperbole when I said, "itachi appeared" behind a enemy?



You said he had the ability to do it so I laughed at you since it was a dumb thing to say.


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## Kinjishi (Oct 23, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Each time using smoke bombs, distractions and a KB (so much for Pain seeing chakra ), never with pure speed.



Of course speed was involved in all but the last scan. If it wasn't, then he would have never have caught the first Realms off guard, each of whom required one of the other two Realms to provide vision for it. 

If you want to talk pure speed, Jiraiya doesn't require getting behind individuals when he can outright blitz them from in front. :ho


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2009)

*Kinjishi*, stay and pick and my argument please:

Tsukiyomi

*Spoiler*: __ 



He also implied to Naruto that he can cast Tsukiyomi while someone is under a general finger  since Naruto fully expected to be going down at that point. Ergo, any character that does not have knowledge that Itachi's fingers can cast a momentary Genjutsu can become instantly susceptible to eating a Tsukiyomi and die through the process. Itachi could defeat almost anyone through Genjutsu. Jiraiya has no knowledge, so he risks eating a Tsukiyomi by even looking at his mid body. This is also assuming that he won't be overconfident like he was in the hotel room and look him in the  He needs to look at his feet to be safe.




Amatarasu

*Spoiler*: __ 



I won't use anything he hasn't shown, just Amatarasu. Three things were required for Raikage to dodge it. He was a reasonable distance away. His reflexes are faster than light. And he had the luxury of staring Sasuke in the eyes to be ready for it's arrival. I think it's rather unlikely, extraordinarily unlikely, that Jiraiya will be ready for any of these things. Furthermore, as Itachi's own synapses fire faster than lightning, so he can move his eyes, hands, and presumably body faster, than Amatarasu will be more accurate and less likely to miss as his eyes move faster despite. Itachi's Amatarasu, unlike Sasuke's, immediately stings if you're hit by it.




Susano

*Spoiler*: __ 



Jiraiya has no knowledge of Susano and the Sword of Totsuka. Shinobi have been able to  like they normally would and perform jutsus while in Susano, meaning that Itachi can still use his superior jutsu speed, like shushin, to get the drop on Jiraiya. Susano's striking speed isn't slow either as it removed nine heads before the first one hit the ground. That's thousands of feet and several slashes in a moment. As I commented on before, Jiraiya's speed, while great, isn't _that_ great.




Speed

*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi's reflexes, synapses are like lightning. You can tell because he looked up at the lightning coming down, his Mangyekou still intact, his brain told his body to use Susano, and he did so before he died. He was blind when he stood. He can either teleport clones that are durable enough to take a blossoming Chidori and can explode or he shushin them away without Sasuke's Sharingan perceiving it at all. In either case, he matches Raikage's super shushin in mobility. Jiraiya, unlike him, has no concrete feats of reflex or mobility as he was fighting opponents that never demonstrated exceptional speed and blocked his trickery each time, in a case you listed, without too much effort. If that Pein body can block his attack fairly  while Jiraiya is in HM, I'm hoping it's not too inconceivable that Itachi could with the Sharingan, lightning synapses, and Raikagesque feats.


 

Jiraiya

*Spoiler*: __ 



Basically, his hopes rest on not being arrogant, being as fast *and* reflexive as the Raikage while magically knowing that Amatarasu is coming, and performing the entire fight by using Gai's method of staring at the feet of someone whose shushin surpasses Sharingan recognition. He's also going to have a hard time avoiding that incredibly quick sword by looking up and not accidentally rolling his eyes over Itachi's own. For Jiraiya you have to make assumptions, without scans, and I don't like that. I could make assumptions that Itachi has copied some devastating fire and water Ninjutsu in his years with Kisame, Kakuzu, and the powerful targets Akatsuki acquires, which he could use when healthy as his stamina would be higher, but I don't.


 

Yomi Numa

*Spoiler*: __ 



Jiraiya has used it on a fodder snake and weaker Pein body. The reason he didn't use it to just kill Deva and all of the other Pein bodies or Hanzou and Orochimaru is probably because it wouldn't be worth the energy. I'd like to think Jiraiya was a smart man, and such a jutsu wouldn't work on elite-elite ninja such as Itachi. If that's not the case, then he is just a fool in character and wouldn't use it anyways.




Ma and Pa

*Spoiler*: __ 



While very powerful and helpful I don't see them being much help in the battle as they take time to be truly useful. The potential for Itachi to use Susano while still being able to shushin, Amatarasu, Tsukiyomi, finger Genjutsu, etc is too much and Susano isn't slow at all and Jiraiya has no knowledge of it. All of Itachi's attacks occur so quickly, without warning, that I can only seem them being useful in breaking him out of finger Genjutsu after a few precious moments slip by. A few moments is all it takes though.




Summons

*Spoiler*: __ 



Like I said, the battle will occur quickly and Jiraiya probably won't need summons, he seems comfortable enough without them in HM, until Susano comes out at which point they're not much of a factor. Before they come out, however, he has a finger Genjutsu-Tsukiyomi combination and an Amatarasu he can't avoid to deal with first. He is fighting an opponent very handicapped this entire time by looking at his feet and Itachi is already faster and arguably smarter.




That's why I think a healthy, serious Itachi wins more comfortably then most think.


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## Kinjishi (Oct 23, 2009)

Illusory said:


> My point is do you have anything concrete exemplifying better speed than Itachi who, as I have shown, can perform jutsu and shushin faster than the Sharingan can register? Or do you just have a bunch of scans, like this one of Sasuke, that make him look cool by being fast against a not-so-fast opponent? I'm not saying he's not fast, but he can't shushin like Itachi or the Raikage - he doesn't have the feats for it. In fact, upon looking through those scans, he didn't use raw speed, but trickery, and it showed when they still blocked his attacks when they saw it coming.



What does hand speed have to do with physical speed? Last I recall, Itachi's single showing of speed was through the use of Kage Bunshin. He never displayed physical speed that Sasuke couldn't react to.

And if you want to take it further, what relevance does hand seal speed have when most, if not all, of HM Jiraiya's ninjutsu require no hand seals.

And while we are on the subject, do you mind provideing scans of Itachi fighting and blitzing three indiviudals with perfect cooridination and teamwork, all of which possessing the speed necessary to legitimately compete in hand-to-hand combat with the likes of Sage Jiraiya and Sage Naruto?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2009)

Kinjishi said:


> What does hand speed have to do with physical speed? Last I recall, Itachi's single showing of speed was through the use of Kage Bunshin. He never displayed physical speed that Sasuke couldn't react to.



Kage Bushin use jutsus too. His physical jutsu [shushin] speed is seen against Kurenai, Kakashi, and Sasuke. He summoned a  in the midst of that shuriken war, which is hand speed, but the clone either shushin'd to the side of the room or he can summon single clones up to twenty feet away. So between hacked form of teleportation that only Itachi has a feat for or a Raikage-like shushin, I picked the lesser of two evils, which I think is more reasonable it just disturbs people that he can move the far more complex and demanding coordination of fingers faster than the Sharingan can see, but also his legs with chakra infused in them. 



Kinjishi said:


> And if you want to take it further, what relevance does hand seal speed have when most, if not all, of HM Jiraiya's ninjutsu require no hand seals.



Well, I wasn't speaking of handseal speed, but if we're not pretending that Jiraiya has secretly been training with Gai to effectively follow the feet of Itachi and thus is susceptible to momentary finger Genjutsu then handseal speed is very useful. If Kakashi or Sasuke can't see it, Jiraiya can't see it, so there will be nothing to indicate the Genjutsu, clones, etc.



Kinjishi said:


> And while we are on the subject, do you mind provideing scans of Itachi fighting and blitzing three indiviudals with perfect cooridination and teamwork, all of which possessing the speed necessary to legitimately compete in hand-to-hand combat with the likes of Sage Jiraiya and Sage Naruto?



Those bodies "kept up" with Sage Naruto? Is that so? My point is that they have no feats other than Shizune, they're not extraordinarily fast, and thus blitzing them,  may I add, does not equate to moving faster than the Sharingan can perceive or react to, particularly when the user is Itachi. I'm not saying Jiraiya isn't fast, he is, but he isn't as fast people are making him out to be and his feats pale in comparison to Itachi's own.


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## Kinjishi (Oct 23, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Kage Bushin use jutsus too. His physical jutsu [shushin] speed is seen against Kurenai, Kakashi, and Sasuke. He summoned a  in the midst of that shuriken war, which is hand speed, but the clone either shushin'd to the side of the room or he can summon single clones up to twenty feet away. So between hacked form of teleportation that only Itachi has a feat for or a Raikage-like shushin, I picked the lesser of two evils, which I think is more reasonable it just disturbs people that he can move the far more complex and demanding coordination of fingers faster than the Sharingan can see, but also his legs with chakra infused in them.



Who was the one who said _"Or do you just have a bunch of scans, like this one of Sasuke, that make him look cool by being fast against a not-so-fast opponent,"_ only to turn around and use Itachi defeating Kurenai as support for his argument?

Quite frankly, the moment you mentioned Itachi's speed in the same breadth as that of the Raikage's advanced shunshin, was the moment you lost any sort of minute credibility you may have had. 

If you want to get technical, Hebi Sasuke had an attack speed that put Itachi's hand seal speed to shame.  

The Raikage had physical speed that utterly put Sasuke to shame. Itachi is nowhere in the Raikage's league, and unless you provide actual manga scans to support your claim of Itachi equaling the Raikage's advanced shunshin in physical speed, then your argument is pure garbage.     



> Well, I wasn't speaking of handseal speed, but if we're not pretending that Jiraiya has secretly been training with Gai to effectively follow the feet of Itachi and thus is susceptible to momentary finger Genjutsu then handseal speed is very useful. If Kakashi or Sasuke can't see it, Jiraiya can't see it, so there will be nothing to indicate the Genjutsu, clones, etc.



You completely missed the point. Itachi's hand seal speed is not an advantage for him that he can exploit. What does it matter if Jiraiya can't read Itachi's hand seal speed, if Itachi can't read Jiraiya's, simply due to the fact that Sage Jiraiya does not use hand seals for a large portion of his techniques.

Not that your argument is even relevant, since Jiraiya has two Sages on his shoulder ready to dispel any genjutsu cast upon Jiraiya. That's of course assuming Sage mode doesn't already disrupt the flow of Jiraiya's chakra to the point of giving him resistance to genjutsu. 

Nor is your argument even logical considering you fell right into the fallacy of claiming A defeats B, C, and D; without B, C, or D doing anything in between.   



> Those bodies "kept up" with Sage Naruto? Is that so? My point is that they have no feats other than Shizune, they're not extraordinarily fast, and thus blitzing them,  may I add, does not equate to moving faster than the Sharingan can perceive or react to, particularly when the user is Itachi. I'm not saying Jiraiya isn't fast, he is, but he isn't as fast people are making him out to be and his feats pale in comparison to Itachi's own.



Pain had speed adequate enough to legitimately compete with Sage Jiraiya and Naruto in hand-to-hand combat. If he didn't, he would have never challenged Naruto in close combat, as he does twice; and yet, Jiraiya was able to outmaneuver three bodies on a number of occasions, even to go as far as challenging all six. Itachi has no impressive physical speed feats whatsoever. None that would even come remotely close to putting him far above Sage jiraiya, or even close to the Raikage. 

The point here is, speed is not a factor in this battle. It simply isn't. Itachi will not outmaneuver or blitz Jiraiya in any way, nor will Jiraiya overwhelm Itachi with his own monstrous speed. This is a contest of who pulls out their trump cards first and more efficiently. Since Jiraiya is already in Sage Mode, and has considerably more versatility and knowledge (assuming the OP grants manga knowledge) on Itachi than vice-versa, he has an overwhelming advantage.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2009)

Kinjishi said:


> Who was the one who said _"Or do you just have a bunch of scans, like this one of Sasuke, that make him look cool by being fast against a not-so-fast opponent,"_ only to turn around and use Itachi defeating Kurenai as support for his argument?



I hope this is a joke. My argument came from moving too fast to Sasuke's Sharingan. Which I imagine you'll respond to next.



Kinjishi said:


> Quite frankly, the moment you mentioned Itachi's speed in the same breadth as that of the Raikage's advanced shunshin, was the moment you lost any sort of minute credibility you may have had.



Well, lets see if you even glanced at my argument then. Prejudice is an interesting thing. To be fair, the Raikage's attack speed was less developed then Sasuke's as he ate a Chidori in their encounter. His shushin speed, on the other hand, completely owns Sasuke. It's that jutsu speed, of the shushin, that Itachi clearly has. 



Kinjishi said:


> The Raikage had physical speed that utterly put Sasuke to shame. Itachi is nowhere in the Raikage's league, and unless you provide actual manga scans to support your claim of Itachi equaling the Raikage's advanced shunshin in physical speed, then your argument is pure garbage.



Did he summon that clone in the corner of the room as teleportation or did he summon the clone next to him, like every other lone clone in the manga, and had it shushin away right in front of Sasuke in the midst of a shuriken war? I'm all for you telling me he instantly summons them far away. They can explode, they're chakra-efficient, and he can beat just about anyone with them in that case.     



Kinjishi said:


> You completely missed the point. Itachi's hand seal speed is not an advantage for him that he can exploit. What does it matter if Jiraiya can't read Itachi's hand seal speed, if Itachi can't read Jiraiya's, simply due to the fact that Sage Jiraiya does not use hand seals for a large portion of his techniques.



Itachi's techniques are fair bit more deadly. I hope you agree. This was never the intended argument to begin with, I was speaking of physical speed, ie., look above.



Kinjishi said:


> Not that your argument is even relevant, since Jiraiya has two Sages on his shoulder ready to dispel any genjutsu cast upon Jiraiya. That's of course assuming Sage mode doesn't already disrupt the flow of Jiraiya's chakra to the point of giving him resistance to genjutsu.



Yes, but your speculation aside, it did take Sakura and Chiyo, who are medical ninjas and extraordinarily observant against Sasori, quite some time to notice Naruto was in a Genjutsu. I think saying he would be under a finger Genjutsu for two or three seconds before they dispell it is generous.  



Kinjishi said:


> Nor is your argument even logical considering you fell right into the fallacy of claiming A defeats B, C, and D; without B, C, or D doing anything in between.



I fell in to the fallacy of saying, "Itachi's shushin moves faster than the Sharingan, Jiraiya's doesn't."   



Kinjishi said:


> Pain had speed adequate enough to legitimately compete with Sage Jiraiya and Naruto in hand-to-hand combat. If he didn't, he would have never challenged Naruto in close combat, as he does twice; and yet, Jiraiya was able to outmaneuver three bodies on a number of occasions, even to go as far as challenging all six. Itachi has no impressive physical speed feats whatsoever. None that would even come remotely close to putting him far above Sage jiraiya, or even close to the Raikage.



Other than the one I provided you mean. Sage Naruto decimated the weaker bodies that were keeping up with Jiraiya and I doubt Sage Naruto's speed is top notch just yet. Jiraiya relied on trickery to land attacks, which is difficult with six pairs of shared eyes.



Kinjishi said:


> The point here is, speed is not a factor in this battle. It simply isn't. Itachi will not outmaneuver or blitz Jiraiya in any way, nor will Jiraiya overwhelm Itachi with his own monstrous speed. This is a contest of who pulls out their trump cards first and more efficiently. Since Jiraiya is already in Sage Mode, and has considerably more versatility and knowledge (assuming the OP grants manga knowledge) on Itachi than vice-versa, he has an overwhelming advantage.



You didn't address the individual arguments I asked you to. Itachi has several key advantages. Jiraiya is forced to look below eye level. His only way of countering Susano is Yomi Numa which is unlikely to work at best. Susano counters everything else and can be summoned faster than lightning. Because of his eye-level and less-than-Raikage speed he won't be dodging Amatarasu nor will he be looking above eye level to easily dodge the Sword of Totsuka. Because of his lack of knowledge on finger Genjutsu he is in danger of being helpless for a few moments, which is a great disadvantage considering the speed of his attacks, and may even be able to be used repetitively as I doubt the frogs will notice his hand seals unless he looks further down, like Gai, at his feet which he lacks specialized training for.


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## Ra (Oct 23, 2009)

> Again, you will need to prove he would end up in a genjutsu if you are so sure he will.



What ninja doesn't look at a ninja eyes at one point in a battle, unless you're trying to tell me Jiraiya SM empower his instincts, and he would know not to look into itachi eyes in battle.

Jiraiya will end up in Genjutsu by eye or fnger genjutsu.



> 1. 1 of them can stop it while the other one watches Itachi.
> 
> 2. They are like 100 years old and they may be able to recognize bait.



Itachi has shown katons large enough to engulf, so itachi ability to appear (Hyperbole) behind them for the kill wouldn't have to play out.

Pa hasn't shown a large enough fuuton to counter it, and Jiraiya would be attempting to break out to move anywhere.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 23, 2009)

Kinjishi said:


> Of course speed was involved in all but the last scan. If it wasn't, then he would have never have caught the first Realms off guard, each of whom required one of the other two Realms to provide vision for it.
> 
> If you want to talk pure speed, Jiraiya doesn't require getting behind individuals when he can outright blitz them from in front. :ho



Except in all cases he's never used pure speed to blitz someone. He always had to use skill or some form of supplement, be it a distraction or obscured his opponent's vision, to get behind them.

It basically means that in this fight Jiraiya doesn't have anything to really argue he's faster than Itachi and is well within the reach of Itachi's Sharingan. He's not escaping Itachi's sight even if Itachi doesn't have the Sharingan active.

Heck, he never outright escaped any Pain body's sight like Raikage did to Sasuke for example. Not without help of course.


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## Cyphon (Oct 23, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> Jiraiya will end up in Genjutsu by eye or fnger genjutsu.



Proof please.



> Itachi has shown katons large enough to engulf, so itachi ability to appear (Hyperbole) behind them for the kill wouldn't have to play out.
> 
> Pa hasn't shown a large enough fuuton to counter it, and Jiraiya would be attempting to break out to move anywhere.



Katon + Futon > Katon. Especially if they attack first. Again, you are always assuming Itachi is making the first move and everyone is just standing there ready to take it.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2009)

Not that I feel this is an important point, but between Itachi and Ma and Pa don't you think Itachi would be getting the first jutsu off? Just sayin'


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## Cyphon (Oct 23, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Not that I feel this is an important point, but between Itachi and Ma and Pa don't you think Itachi would be getting the first jutsu off? Just sayin'



Depends on the jutsu. Some of Jiraiya's only require 1 seal or no seals.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2009)

How many seals do you think Itachi can get off before Ma and Pa get off one?


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## Cyphon (Oct 23, 2009)

Illusory said:


> How many seals do you think Itachi can get off before Ma and Pa get off one?



Maybe 2-5. Most people have fairly fast seal speed and he just goes a step beyond. I don't think it is anything extreme, but I guess it could be.


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## Ra (Oct 23, 2009)

> Proof please.



It's official you're clearly a delusionalists. 

Provide proof he won't look into itachi eyes, considering the fact he has no knowledge of what potential danger looking in itachi eyes present him.



> Katon + Futon > Katon. Especially if they attack first. Again, you are always assuming Itachi is making the first move and everyone is just standing there ready to take it.



You're getting beside the point. Jiraiya being ensnared in itachi's genjutsu is imminent considering the fact he lacks knowledge of what harmful potential looking in the eyes of a sharingan user can bring. The point is Jiraiya is inside a genjutsu because it's inevitable of him looking into itachi eyes. Itachi has the potential of owning Jiraiya before he attempts to escape itachi's genjutsu. A fuuton + katon combo won't work because Jiraiya is to preoccupied to provide a katon for the fuuton + katon combo, thus itachi engulfs Jiraiya with a grandfireball technique.

Even if itachi didn't make the first moves against ma and pa, Ma and Pa jutsu would be useless against a person who can counter the moves easily with agility and counter katons. Also Itachi has a kb that can help spam ninjutsu at ma and pa while Jiraiya is still attempting to break out itachi's genjutsu, so Ma and Pa being owned by Itachi while Jiraiya is ensnared in a genjusu is logical.


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## Cyphon (Oct 23, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> Provide proof he won't look into itachi eyes, considering the fact he has no knowledge of what potential danger looking in itachi eyes present him.



Provide proof he doesn't simply kai the genjutsu instantly or that Ma and Pa don't do it for him or that SM simply doesn't prevent it to begin with.



> Jiraiya being ensnared in itachi's genjutsu is imminent considering the fact he lacks knowledge of what harmful potential looking in the eyes of a sharingan user can bring.



He doesn't lack such knowledge. He may lack specific knowledge on Itachi but not on the Sharingan.



> Even if itachi didn't make the first moves against ma and pa, Ma and Pa jutsu would be useless against a person who can counter the moves easily with agility and counter katons.



There jutsu aren't useless. Of course if they are then I guess Itachi's are as well. Since we can just both claim that for no reason.


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## Ra (Oct 23, 2009)

> Provide proof he doesn't simply kai the genjutsu instantly or that Ma and Pa don't do it for him or that SM simply doesn't prevent it to begin with.



Burden of proof is on the person who said he can kai instantly out, and he has shown no ability of doing so.

Itachi genjutsu has shown to go undetected, as seen against deidara when he nearly killed himself.

SM doesn't allow immunity to genjutsu.



> He doesn't lack such knowledge. He may lack specific knowledge on Itachi but not on the Sharingan.



I gave him no knowledge.



> There jutsu aren't useless. Of course if they are then I guess Itachi's are as well. Since we can just both claim that for no reason.



No, anything Ma and Pa has shown in the manga hasn't shown the capability of crippling or damaging Itachi. Whilst Itachi abilities has the potential of doing so if you have no technique in your repertoire to deal with it.


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## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> Burden of proof is on the person who said he can kai instantly out, and he has shown no ability of doing so.



Actually I never said that and burden of proof is on you because you claim he will be caught in genjutsu. If you claim it you must prove it.



> Itachi genjutsu has shown to go undetected, as seen against deidara when he nearly killed himself.



And I care what happened to Deidara because?



> SM doesn't allow immunity to genjutsu.



We don't know for sure what it is capable of, but right now I lean toward agreeing with you.



> I gave him no knowledge.



No knowledge of Itachi. 



> No, anything Ma and Pa has shown in the manga hasn't shown the capability of crippling or damaging Itachi.



There tongues, quick Frog Song or long Frog Song could all put him in a bad situation.



> Whilst Itachi abilities has the potential of doing so if you have no technique in your repertoire to deal with it.



Same goes for Jiraiya's. If Jiraiya went on an all-out assault on Itachi in SM Itachi would need Susanoo to live and even that may fall to Yomi Numa.


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## Karma カルマ (Oct 24, 2009)

Does Jiraiya start in SM. I would assume so since it says SM Jiraiya, however I would like to confirm this before responding.


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## Panos (Oct 24, 2009)

With Tsukuyomi Itachi can kill SM Jiraiya.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 24, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> That jutsu is such an ambiguous jutsu, I need a scan or databook entry on that.



You already asked me I answered. Here

But here


> As you insist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Now show me a counter argument.





*
The double standard is expected. Here*
*

You: Itachi WTF pawns Jiraiya with lawlgenjutsu + Kunai. Like Orochimaru.
*


_*

Me: Then Itachi dies, in the EXACT same manner like ANIMAL REALM. Pain thought Jiraiya was helpless and descided to kill him.
*_


*

You:What that is such an ambiguous jutsu,*



The hippocrisy is laughable.




> Itachifans: OMFG Itachi can cast genjutsu with his finger, his finger genjutsu is invincible,(insert naruto almost breaking out of it, insert him loosing due to his terrible chakra control )
> 
> 
> Itachifans: OMFG Itachi can use a crow genjutsu. [Insert that fact it is a C ranked jutsu. ][insert that Itachi has not shown the ablility to attack the person while controlling the victim. ]
> ...





*Show me a counter arument to my barrier arument, then we continue*


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 24, 2009)

I am going to counter every counter argument this poster replied.



Illusory said:


> *Kinjishi*, stay and pick and my argument please:


This should be good.




> Tsukiyomi
> He also implied to Naruto that he can cast Tsukiyomi while someone is under a general finger  since Naruto fully expected to be going down at that point.



Firstly this is completely fanfiction, you have no proof Itachi can use Tsukuyomi using his finger. THE MOVES IS A *DOJUTSU* do you know what the fuck a dojutsu means, It means eyetechniques. Meaning he has to look in the eyes and use the eyes.

The genjutsu is useless against high level opponents, and he can't attack the opponent while in the victim is in the genjutus.



> Ergo, any character that does not have knowledge that Itachi's fingers can cast a momentary Genjutsu can become instantly susceptible to eating a Tsukiyomi and die through the process. Itachi could defeat almost anyone through Genjutsu. Jiraiya has no knowledge, so he risks eating a Tsukiyomi by even looking at his mid body.



Firstly Tsukuyomi requires eye contact, And nothing says that Itachi can use it using his finger. Heck he can't even attack the user. And if I go by this. Jiraiya has a magical counter to Itachi's genjutsu, as he did break the woman out of genjutus. So he does have knowledge of Itachi's genjutsu. 



> This is also assuming that he won't be overconfident like he was in the hotel room and look him in the  He needs to look at his feet to be safe.




Does this look like he was overconfident. He never undersestimated Itachi, he even stated that they were strong, in another league.

I am assuming he does look in the eye and has a conter to genjutsu. SM seem to be the best counter. As he can absorb Natural energy, which could disrupt his charka circulatory system enough to snap himself out of any genjutus. And considering he is a sage, he will be able to detect when an alien chakra is entering into his chakra circulatory system.




> Amatarasu
> I won't use anything he hasn't shown, just Amatarasu. Three things were required for Raikage to dodge it. He was a reasonable distance away



IT WAS POINT BLANK RANGE.




> His reflexes are faster than light



Manga page please, overrating the Raikage when suiting you, underrrating him while suiting you. lol.

Show me the manga page.

Heck show me lightning fast reflexes, itself nothing states.



> And he had the luxury of staring Sasuke in the eyes to be ready for it's arrival. I think it's rather unlikely, extraordinarily unlikely, that Jiraiya will be ready for any of these things. Furthermore, as Itachi's own synapses fire faster than lightning, so he can move his eyes, hands, and presumably body faster, than Amatarasu will be more accurate and less likely to miss as his eyes move faster despite. Itachi's Amatarasu, unlike Sasuke's, immediately stings if you're hit by it.




Abaited that Jiraiya can't *block it *or kawarimi out of this jutsu.

Amaterasu doesnot burn any thing instantly, and show me how Itachi reaction is as fast as lightning.



> Susano
> Jiraiya has no knowledge of Susano and the Sword of Totsuka. Shinobi have been able to



that was Sasuke and sasuke was very immobile, he was not moving fast,


> like they normally would and perform jutsus while in Susano,



Proof please, Sasuke could use enton on his existing flames, not justu could be used while inside Susanoo. 



> meaning that Itachi can still use his superior jutsu speed, like shushin, to get the drop on Jiraiya.



Again, Susanoo as shown by Sasuke is not very mobile.




> Susano's striking speed isn't slow either as it removed nine heads before the first one hit the ground. That's thousands of feet and several slashes in a moment. As I commented on before, Jiraiya's speed, while great, isn't _that_ great.




Neither is gamabunta, but reagardless it is difficult to hit a small moving target, it can be easily *out manuvered*.

Simple physics, the bigger you are the slower you get. Bunta has *much better speedfleats *than Susanoo.




> Speed
> Itachi's reflexes, synapses are like lightning.



Manga page please,




> You can tell because he looked up at the lightning coming down,



Yes when a clouds  forming he, your brain could normally knows that it might cause lightings. Genius 




> his Mangyekou still intact, his brain told his body to use Susano, and he did so before he died. He was blind when he stood.



No he wasn't blind, and You forget, Sasuke climbed up the roof, summoned a cloud, explaine the jutsu, and then cased the jutsu after using the handseals
Nothing stated that Itachi used susanoo at that instant, Mini Susanoo was broken by Raikage's arm, Hence Susanoo is not that great, unsess its fully fromed.



> He can either teleport clones that are durable enough to take a blossoming Chidori and can explode or he shushin them away without Sasuke's Sharingan perceiving it at all.



Any shodow clone can take a chidori, Look at Sarutobi vs Oro sadow clones are shit durable, and Itachi can teleport now.Again link please?



> In either case, he matches Raikage's super shushin in mobility.



NO Raikage is miles faster in bodymovement than Itachi. HM Jiraiya is faster than Itachi. Show me a speedfleat that Itachi has that matches Jariya. Don't bring up handseal because finger movement=/= whole body movement

Bruce Lee can fight faster than the camera can see. He can't runfaster than an olympic runner.


Bruce Lee is MUCH faster than Royce Gracie.
Yet Royce Gracie has a very good chance of beating him. With superior tachniqes and strength and weight.




> Jiraiya, unlike him, has no concrete feats of reflex or mobility as he was fighting opponents that never demonstrated exceptional speed and blocked his trickery each time, in a case you listed, without too much effort. If that Pein body can block his attack fairly  while Jiraiya is in HM, I'm hoping it's not too inconceivable that Itachi could with the Sharingan, lightning synapses, and Raikagesque feats.[/spoiler]
> 
> Where did you get lightning synapses, for Itachi. Jiraiya has better speed fleats than Itahci, give me a manga page of Itachi's speed. Again, it may not be because Jiraiya is slow but* Pain each and everyone of them is that fast* speed is NOT A FACTOR IN CLOSE COMBAT. If you ever been to a street fight of a MMA fight you will know what I mean.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 24, 2009)

> Jiraiya
> Basically, his hopes rest on not being arrogant,



He is less arrogant than Itachi, who mocks his opponents. If Itachi does the same thing as Itachi, he dies the same manner as Animal realm.




> being as fast *and* reflexive as the Raikage



Which he is as fast a Raikage, while he doesn't need to be as reflective



> while magically knowing that Amatarasu is coming,



He sealed the jutsu and every man woman and child knows about this jutsu.


> and performing the entire fight by using Gai's method of staring at the feet of someone whose *shushin surpasses Sharingan recognition*.



Movement detection barrier.

Bolded part link pls.



> He's also going to have a hard time avoiding that incredibly quick sword by looking up and not accidentally rolling his eyes over Itachi's own. For Jiraiya you have to make assumptions, without scans, and I don't like that.



If Itachi comes close to Jiraiya he get hari jizoed. Itachi looses his arms.



> I could make assumptions that Itachi has copied some devastating fire and water Ninjutsu in his years with Kisame, Kakuzu, and the powerful targets Akatsuki acquires, which he could use when healthy as his stamina would be higher, but I don't.








> Yomi Numa
> Jiraiya has used it on a fodder snake and weaker Pein body.



Weaker pain body, who can kill Itachi is a pure taijustu exchange, Is arguable stronger and  than Itachi.



> The reason he didn't use it to just kill Deva and all of the other Pein bodies or Hanzou and Orochimaru is probably because it wouldn't be worth the energy



Against Hanzo he might have not known the jutsu. Against Orochimaru, Oro was standing on top of the snake. Against Deva HIS ARM WAS FUCKING CHOPPED OFF BY AN AMBUSH ATTACK IF YOU FORGOT.




> I'd like to think Jiraiya was a smart man, and such a jutsu wouldn't work on elite-elite ninja such as Itachi.



And you are basing this on? I countered your argument.




> If that's not the case, then he is just a fool in character and wouldn't use it anyways.



PNJ, the same reason, Naruto doesnt use a FRS bunshin suicide attack, or just put an exploding tag in his body and explodes a thousand KB at his opponent nuking them to hell. Its called plot.




> Ma and Pa
> While very powerful and helpful I don't see them being much help in the battle as they take time to be truly useful.



Yes, they can use jutsus instantly



> The potential for Itachi to use Susano while still being able to


Itachi can't use any jutsu while inside Susanoo, Sasuke used enton to manupiate the flames.



> shushin,



Jiraiya has SM enhanced Sushin, SM boosted Sushin > Normal sushin, manga fact.




> Amatarasu,



Block, dodged and kawarimied




> Tsukiyomi,



Can't kill,  damaged can be reduced if the will power is high enough. Itachi need to still kill Jiraiya with a kunai. Jiraiya needs no handseals to trap Itachi in his barrier.



> finger Genjutsu, etc



Useless, can't attack while using finger genjutsu. Show me the other moves so that I may counter him.



> is too much and Susano isn't slow at all and Jiraiya has no knowledge of it.



Yes, it is. Slower than Jiraiya and bunta at least. Slow enough to be out manuvered.




> All of Itachi's attacks occur so quickly, without warning, that I can only seem them being useful in breaking him out of finger Genjutsu after a few precious moments slip by. A few moments is all it takes though.



So is Jiraiya's jutsu most of his justu requires *no handseals* giving him the faster exicution and better element of surprise.

Itachi can't attack the victim while using the finger genjutsu.

You want me to list the number of jutsu that requier no hand seals.

Kuchiyose no jutsu
Rasengan



(deadly with katon:endan)
(what is Itachi's counter to this move, if Jiraiya grabs hold of his shadow.)

All senjutsu moves.


 (99% sure Itachi will fuck up with this move)




> Summons
> Like I said, the battle will occur quickly and Jiraiya probably won't need summons, he seems comfortable enough without them in HM, until Susano comes out at which point they're not much of a factor. Before they come out, however, he has a finger Genjutsu-Tsukiyomi combination and an Amatarasu he can't avoid to deal with first. He is fighting an opponent very handicapped this entire time by looking at his feet and Itachi is already faster and arguably smarter.




Fistly HM Jiraiya is faster than Itachi, secondly SPEED IS NOT MUCH OF A FACTOR. He is only faster than him by 0.5. Kisame held his own in a taijutsu exchange against Base Gai, who is also 5 tier, and Kisame is only 4 tier and hence slower than Jiraiya. And still held his own against Gai, Rock lee and who is also faster and Neji who is also faster.

You the speed arument is retarded. 




> That's why I think a healthy, serious Itachi wins more comfortably then most think.




Jiraiya beats serious Itachi with his arms chopped off.


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## Ra (Oct 24, 2009)

> Actually I never said that and burden of proof is on you because you claim he will be caught in genjutsu. If you claim it you must prove it.



Proof: Jiraiya has no knowledge, he has shown to look in his opponents eyes numerous of times. Against pain, orochimaru, and other ninjas. 



> And I care what happened to Deidara because?



It's an example of how Itachi's genjutsu can go undetected, and Jiraiya is susceptible to this.



> No knowledge of Itachi.



Jiraiya has no knowledge of itachi.



> There tongues, quick Frog Song or long Frog Song could all put him in a bad situation.



The tongues will be predicted and evaded, and Itachi has the ability to fire a katon as a counter. Frog song has shown to prepare against pain twice.



> Same goes for Jiraiya's. If Jiraiya went on an all-out assault on Itachi in SM Itachi would need Susanoo to live and even that may fall to Yomi Numa.



I was referring to ma and pa.



> Now show me a counter argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't say it was ambiguous as in it won't work, I didn't understand how it works .

Itachi would see the barrier and he's smart enough to not go in the barrier naively, again Jiraiya may be in a genjutsu and kill himself with his own technique.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 24, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> I didn't say it was ambiguous as in it won't work, I didn't understand how it works .



There is a db entry and it showed how the jutsu works. Anyone who accidentally steps into the barrier gets sucked into the stomach of the gourd toad. Where he is drowned in acid. This jutsu was instantaniousl. And required no hand seals(arm chopped off)



> Itachi would see the barrier



Pain didn't what make Itachi so special that he won't. Rin nengan couldn't see this move. So why would Itachi be able to see this move.




> and he's smart enough to not go in the barrier naively,




It is a *trap* the perpose of a trap to surprise your opponent, without him realizing



> again Jiraiya may be in a genjutsu and kill himself with his own technique.



No this one? My friend, he is the contractor. and Itachi wont realize what hit him before it is too late. Jiraiya being as sage can sense Natural energy and chakra. He can absorbe Natural energy from the air. He can most definately be able to sense that an alien chakra is entering into his chakra circulatory system.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Firstly this is completely fanfiction, you have no proof Itachi can use Tsukuyomi using his finger. THE MOVES IS A *DOJUTSU* do you know what the fuck a dojutsu means, It means eyetechniques. Meaning he has to look in the eyes and use the eyes.



Maybe you're confused, but when someone's under a Genjutsu already, even for a moment, it's probably a great deal easier to make eye contact with them in reality. That at least should be pretty sensical, even if you ignore that Itachi said that he couldn't use the Mangyekou on Naruto at that point i time, implying that he could otherwise.



Dariustwinblade said:


> The genjutsu is useless against high level opponents, and he can't attack the opponent while in the victim is in the genjutus.



This is just... false. We have seen the opposite from several people, several times. Itachi doesn't attack while they're under Genjutsu because he doesn't like killing people.



Dariustwinblade said:


> And if I go by this. Jiraiya has a magical counter to Itachi's genjutsu, as he did break the woman out of genjutus. So he does have knowledge of Itachi's genjutsu.



But she was passed out. Will he pass out upon breaking it? Chiyo and Sakura can break people out of Genjutsu Itachi's Genjutsu, but that doesn't mean they can break themselves out. I bet they can, but it hasn't been shown and it would likely be a few seconds before they even realized they were in one.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Does this look like he was overconfident. He never undersestimated Itachi, he even stated that they were strong, in another league. I am assuming he does look in the eye and has a conter to genjutsu. SM seem to be the best counter. As he can absorb Natural energy, which could disrupt his charka circulatory system enough to snap himself out of any genjutus. And considering he is a sage, he will be able to detect when an alien chakra is entering into his chakra circulatory system.



There are plenty of assumptions here. I would appreciate a scan backing these claims. I think saying he would be under a finger Genjutsu for only a few seconds is extraordinarily generous of me. In a few seconds Jiraiya could be ash or Itachi could make eye contact and land Tsukiyomi.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Manga page please, overrating the Raikage when suiting you, underrrating him while suiting you. lol. Show me the manga page. Heck show me lightning fast reflexes, itself nothing states.



There's nothing overrating him and it wasn't point blank, Sasuke could have laid flat and there still would have been room, it's around ten feet. I'm not underestimating him, I'm saying he had the luxury to look Sasuke in the eyes and anticipate Amatarasu with reflexes that are like lightning and have the super shushin to avoid it. Jiraiya has none of those things. Unless you have scans showing me otherwise. 



Dariustwinblade said:


> Amaterasu doesnot burn any thing instantly, and show me how Itachi reaction is as fast as lightning. Yes when a clouds  forming he, your brain could normally knows that it might cause lightings. Genius



The two times Itachi has used it, it incinerates instantly. Itachi used a Ninjutsu before lightning, Kirin hit the ground. That's reflex. You can see his Mangyekou as he's staring up, he uses his technique as the lightning's coming down, and he's blind. It's a legitimate reflex feat. Genius?



Dariustwinblade said:


> that was Sasuke and sasuke was very immobile, he was not moving fast,



He hopped right up and cleared ten feet in a second. It's Sasuke, but using Itachi's technique that he said he hadn't even perfected. This argument of yours is trash, just drop it. Itachi can move as fast as he likes in Susano.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Proof please, Sasuke could use enton on his existing flames, not justu could be used while inside Susanoo.



He used Amatarasu while in Susano... he jumped around. It's pretty obvious ninjas can still manipulate chakra for attacks, shushin, Genjutsu, etc while in Susano.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Neither is gamabunta, but reagardless it is difficult to his a small moving target, it can be easily *out manuvered*. Simple physics, the bigger you are the slower you get.



That's not physics. At all. Can I go, "Genius?" again like you?



Dariustwinblade said:


> Any shodow clone can take a chidori, Look at Sarutobi vs Oro sadow clones are shit durable, and Itachi can teleport now.Again link please?



It was provided previously, Itachi's clone came from the corner of the room. Either Itachi summoned it there instantly, or he summoned it next to him and had it shushin to the side. Not all shadowclones are durable, I can't believe you even said that. 



Dariustwinblade said:


> Show me a speedfleat that Itachi has that matches Jariya. Don't bring up handseal because finger movement=/= whole body movement



All of his speed feats are better than HM Jiraiya, but the shushin feat I have previously shown puts HM Jiraiya to shame.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Bruce Lee can fight faster than the camera can see. He can't runfaster than an olympic runner.



This is a manga. But are you saying that in close range Itachi can fight in Taijutsu faster than people can see? Because I'll take that lol.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Again, it may not be because Jiraiya is slow but* Pain each and everyone of them is that fast* speed is NOT A FACTOR IN CLOSE COMBAT. If you ever been to a street fight of a MMA fight you will know what I mean.



Do they have *any* feats? Really. Anything. 



Dariustwinblade said:


> He is less arrogant than Itachi, who mocks his opponents. If Itachi does the same thing as Itachi, he dies the same manner as Animal realm.



If Itachi does the same thing as Itachi? What? Itachi is one of the most humble powerhouses in the entire manga, he congratulates his opponents on their skill and perception. More importantly, Itachi has never underestimated the way Jiraiya obviously has in nearly every match.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Weaker pain body, who can kill Itachi is a pure taijustu exchange, Is arguable stronger and  than Itachi.



Please, for the love of God, tell me you're not basing his speed off of Shizune. Please. I'll give him strength though, but I've never denied that.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Against Hanzo he might have not known the jutsu. Against Orochimaru, Oro was standing on top of the snake. Against Deva HIS ARM WAS FUCKING CHOPPED OFF BY AN AMBUSH ATTACK IF YOU FORGOT.



Orochimaru wasn't standing on the snake the whole time, there was ample opportunity to use it before. He was a Sage when he fought Hanzou, but okay. He could have used it to solo all the Pein bodies from the start but didn't. Your arguments aren't very good ones as to how Yomi Numa pwns elite ninjas.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Jiraiya has SM enhanced Sushin, SM boosted Sushin > Normal sushin, manga fact.



No, it's not. I'd like a feat. I want to see something better than Itachi, Sasuke, Minato, etc. Or else you can just... shove it?



Dariustwinblade said:


> (99% sure Itachi will fuck up with this move)



Why would Itachi charge straight in to a barrier like Animal Realm had to when the Sword of Totsuka could do it for him? Notice the language, he *charged* right in to my barrier. He didn't fall in to it, he charged. The Rinnegan, like the Sharingan, can see chakra but Pein thought it would be worth it to kill him. Itachi's Susano would own the hell out of Jiraiya if he hid in his barrier.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Fistly HM Jiraiya is faster than Itachi, secondly SPEED IS NOT MUCH OF A FACTOR.



It's not my argument for Itachi to win, it's to prevent people from thinking that HM Jiraiya has any type of speed advantage. What wins this for Itachi is finger Genjutsu combined with any one of his Mangyekou techniques.


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## Ra (Oct 24, 2009)

> There is a db entry and it showed how the jutsu works. Anyone who accidentally steps into the barrier gets sucked into the stomach of the gourd toad. Where he is drowned in acid. This jutsu was instantaniousl. And required no hand seals(arm chopped off)



Again what's stopping itachi from seeing the barrier with his sharingan? 



> Pain didn't what make Itachi so special that he won't. Rin nengan couldn't see this move. So why would Itachi be able to see this move.



The rinnegan and sharingan are two different doujutsus.



> It is a trap the perpose of a trap to surprise your opponent, without him realizing



It's not a trap if the sharingan can see it.



> No this one? My friend, he is the contractor. and Itachi wont realize what hit him before it is too late. Jiraiya being as sage can sense Natural energy and chakra. He can absorbe Natural energy from the air. He can most definately be able to sense that an alien chakra is entering into his chakra circulatory system.



Ma and Pa gathers the natural energy not Jiraiya, thus the genjutsu can go undetected.

Point still stands that he could kill himself.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

I'd like to see the databook scan for that jutsu. Anyways, the language in the manga makes it clear that Pein didn't "fall in to a trap" he *charged* in to it because one replaceable body was worth killing Jiraiya. Itachi's Sword of Totsuka or Amatarasu would do the job quite nicely if Jiraiya thought he was being clever by hiding inside a barrier that the Sharingan can see.



Gally said:


> Does Jiraiya start in SM. I would assume so since it says SM Jiraiya, however I would like to confirm this before responding.



He does indeed. However, if you'd like to spite manga evidence and assume:

1. He can stare in to Itachi's eyes and brush off Tsukiyomi
2. Normal Sharingan Genjutsu won't work for even two seconds.
3. Finger Genjutsu won't work on him for two seconds 
4. None of this Genjutsu can be reused for any purpose
5. Summons can't be put under Genjutsu.
6. Itachi can't do anything while Jiraiya's in a Genjutsu.
7. He can fight effectively by staring at Itachi's feet only.
8. He can speed rape Itachi and end it instantly.
9. Itachi doesn't have the reflexes to block lightning
10. Jiraiya has reflexes and speed like the Raikage to avoid Amatarasu
11. He's also watching Itachi's eyes to know Amatarasu is coming
12. Shinobi can't move or use jutsu in Susano 
13. Itachi's Amatarasu is as potent as Sasuke's Amatarasu
14. He'll fight Jiraiya like he fought Sasuke.
15. Yomi Numa kills ninjas of Itachi's skill level.
16. He knows that Susano is unbreakable and impassable & won't approach

Then that's acceptable as well. It wouldn't be a full-knowledge-Raikage-Jiraiya v extra-gimped-dying-no-knowledge-non-lethal Itachi without those after all.


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## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> Proof: Jiraiya has no knowledge, he has shown to look in his opponents eyes numerous of times. Against pain, orochimaru, and other ninjas.



So you have proved nothing basically. None of those people have Sharingan and Jiraiya has/had fairly good knowledge of what each were capable of like I dunno......maybe a powerful genjutsu 



> It's an example of how Itachi's genjutsu can go undetected, and Jiraiya is susceptible to this.



Sure, if he is caught and doesn't see right through it.



> Jiraiya has no knowledge of itachi.



I already said this, but thanks for backing me up on it 



> The tongues will be predicted and evaded,



Proof please.



> and Itachi has the ability to fire a katon as a counter.



Their tongues would rip right through the Katon's and not be harmed. They are both powered by sage chakra and as we saw with Naruto, even falling through a jagged cliff wont really harm them. They also displayed the power to thrash concrete like it was butter.



> Frog song has shown to prepare against pain twice.



Your point?

I was also referring to the quick one they did to paralyze Pain's summons.



> I was referring to ma and pa.



I am not sure he would need Susanoo, but he certainly doesn't counter them well.

He has Katon and they have Katon + Futon. He has KB's they have tongues that shred large summons with ease from large distances etc...



Illusory said:


> Note that he doesn't know how Amatarasu is executed, just the make up of the flames that pwnd his indestructible wall.



This is only your opinion and the thread does not dictate that we shouldn't assume he has this knowledge if we think we do, so you shouldn't put such limitations if the OP doesn't.

Although IIRC the thread is no knowledge for either side anyway.....



> It wouldn't be a gimped Itachi v full knowledge, Raikage-prepped-Jiraiya thread without it.



I don't remember the OP gimping Itachi in anyway.....I need to go back and see what the OP says.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Itachi rapes without knowledge of his style. If Jiraiya doesn't know not to look in the Sharingan, he goes down like Orochimaru and Deidara did before him. Except this time he decides to kill his opponent. Itachi could be nailed to wall three seconds from bleeding to death and he could still beat Jiraiya if Jiraiya didn't know about Tsukiyomi lol. Heck, Jiraiya had knowledge of the Sharingan and still looked at Itachi's eyes in the center


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## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Itachi rapes without knowledge of his style. If Jiraiya doesn't know not to look in the Sharingan, he goes down like Orochimaru and Deidara did before him.



Pretty much everyone knows about the Sharingan, so I doubt Jiraiya wouldn't know. IIRC he even dispelled Itachi's genjutsu on that random women.



> Itachi could be nailed to wall three seconds from bleeding to death and he could still beat Jiraiya if Jiraiya didn't know about Tsukiyomi lol.



Itachi still has no good counter for Yomi Numa and Susanoo is the only thing saving him from SM Jiraiya's other ninjutsu.

If we are talking base than Itachi has a better chance of not immediately needing MS.


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## Soul (Oct 24, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Pretty much everyone knows about the Sharingan, so I doubt Jiraiya wouldn't know. IIRC he even dispelled Itachi's genjutsu on that random women.



Cyphon; Jiraiya doesn't has _*any knowledge*_; because it was stated by the OP.


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## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Cyphon; Jiraiya doesn't has _*any knowledge*_; because it was stated by the OP.



That's not how it works. It means they have no knowledge of each other, not everything else in the ninja world. If they don't have ANY knowledge then they don't even know any techniques etc....


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## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Pretty much everyone knows about the Sharingan, so I doubt Jiraiya wouldn't know. IIRC he even dispelled Itachi's genjutsu on that random women.



Chiyo and Sakura got Naruto out of a Genjutsu, that's different then breaking out yourself, especially breaking out instantly. Not even Sasuke and his Sharingan that can see right through Genjutsu broke out of Shi's Genjutsu instantly, a moment or two had passed and the Raikage maximized that with a non-charged shushin. Itachi could do many things to end the fight in that time and Jiraiya doesn't even have the Sharingan.



Cyphon said:


> Itachi still has no good counter for Yomi Numa and Susanoo is the only thing saving him from SM Jiraiya's other ninjutsu. If we are talking base than Itachi has a better chance of not immediately needing MS.



Yomi Numa doesn't need a counter, it has no feats that end battles, and it has only temporarily trapped a weaker Pein body, who isn't exactly an elite ninja, and fodder. Unlike normal Genjutsu, Tsukiyomi, Amatarasu, or Susano, which Jiraiya has no counters for, that have succeeded more or less instantly succeeded against Naruto, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Deidara, Killerbee, Shi, and a host of other fodder. It doesn't even have hype backing it up.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> That's not how it works. It means they have no knowledge of each other, not everything else in the ninja world. If they don't have ANY knowledge then they don't even know any techniques etc....



And as the Sharingan is part of Itachi he doesn't know of it. Just like Itachi has never heard of the famous, legendary ninja, Jiraiya or of any of his techniques.


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## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Not even Sasuke and his Sharingan that can see right through Genjutsu broke out of Shi's Genjutsu instantly, a moment or two had passed and the Raikage maximized that with a non-charged shushin.



Sasuke saw through it immediately. What we saw was Juugo envisioning something, not Sasuke. 



> Yomi Numa doesn't need a counter, it has no feats that end battles, and it has only temporarily trapped a weaker Pein body, who isn't exactly an elite ninja, and fodder.



It ends a battle as soon as you are caught if you don't have a way out. Its not a temporary trap and nothing that has ever been caught ever escaped. 

And you can toss around the word fodder all you want but it was the leader of Akutsuki who he trapped AND Pain had knowledge of Jiraiya's techniques.

Pain > Sasuke or Deidara or Oro and those are the people Itachi caught 

So there you go. We can both play dumb games if you'd like. 



Illusory said:


> And as the Sharingan is part of Itachi he doesn't know of it. Just like Itachi has never heard of the famous, legendary ninja, Jiraiya or of any of his techniques.



Itachi walks around with it activated or at least every time we have seen him he has had it on, so even if Jiraiya doesn't know he will know the moment he spots Itachi.


----------



## Soul (Oct 24, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> That's not how it works. It means they have no knowledge of each other, not everything else in the ninja world. If they don't have ANY knowledge then they don't even know any techniques etc....



So...Itachi has knowledge of summons, Jiraiya's power {a Sannin) and Jiraiya knows about the Sharingan and that an Uchiha is dangerous?

If that is the case, Itachi should use MS Jutsus really fast IC, as he knows that this won't be an easy fight.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> So...Itachi has knowledge of summons, Jiraiya's power {a Sannin) and Jiraiya knows about the Sharingan and that an Uchiha is dangerous?



No, he wouldn't know Jiraiya is a Sannin, only that Sannin are strong. So he would not know of summons and all that.

Just like Jiraiya wouldn't know Itachi is an Uchiha, but he would know Uchiha are strong etc....



> If that is the case, Itachi should use MS Jutsus really fast IC, as he knows that this won't be an easy fight.



Nah. Itachi fought Oro and didn't use MS, he fought Sasuke and didn't immediately use MS, he fought 3 elite Jounin from Konoha and didn't use MS. 

Its probably more so because he didn't try to kill them, but that IS his character after all, so IC he wouldn't jump straight to something like Amaterasu.....maybe Tsukiyami though.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Sasuke saw through it immediately. What we saw was Juugo envisioning something, not Sasuke.



Sasuke was about to be splattered. He didn't see through it immediately. 



Cyphon said:


> It ends a battle as soon as you are caught if you don't have a way out. Its not a temporary trap and nothing that has ever been caught ever escaped.



A fodder snake and a weaker Pein body.



Cyphon said:


> And you can toss around the word fodder all you want but it was the leader of Akutsuki who he trapped AND Pain had knowledge of Jiraiya's techniques.



Pein didn't have full knowledge of his techniques nor should you equivocate temporarily trapping a single body as to capturing the _Akatsuki Leader_. The bodies are notoriously one-dimensional. It wasn't a feat you can say would work on any elite shinobi.



Cyphon said:


> Pain > Sasuke or Deidara or Oro and those are the people Itachi caught



So that body > Orochimaru, Deidara, or Sasuke? Take it to the Battledome?



Cyphon said:


> Itachi walks around with it activated or at least every time we have seen him he has had it on, so even if Jiraiya doesn't know he will know the moment he spots Itachi.



So you're saying he would have to see the Sharingan to know Itachi has the Sharingan. That sounds like a Tsukiyomi rape to me.


----------



## the box (Oct 24, 2009)

> Illusory said:
> 
> 
> > Sasuke was about to be splattered. He didn't see through it immediately.
> ...


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Sasuke was about to be splattered. He didn't see through it immediately.



He saw through it immediately. Like I said and the manga showed, Juugo was the one who didn't see through it.



> A fodder snake and a weaker Pein body.



And who has Itachi beat? Fodder Akutski, fodder Sannin and fodder Uchiha.



> Pein didn't have full knowledge of his techniques nor should you equivocate temporarily trapping a single body as to capturing the _Akatsuki Leader_. The bodies are notoriously one-dimensional.



Pain and Konan knew most of Jiraiya's arsenal outside of SM and I believe they even thought "Yomi Numa!" as he did it. So they knew he had the jutsu IIRC and still couldn't avoid it.

And the bodies being 1 dimensional doesn't mean much when it comes to the technique as it will trap you know matter what unless you know it is coming or just happen to to a big jump as he uses it.



> It wasn't a feat you can say would work on any elite shinobi.



Same I can say for Itachi's techniques. At least not on Jiraiya.



> So that body > Orochimaru, Deidara, or Sasuke? Take it to the Battledome?



Not really my point, but I don't think explaining any more will help you get it.



> So you're saying he would have to see the Sharingan to know Itachi has the Sharingan. That sounds like a Tsukiyomi rape to me.



No. He would see the Sharingan, Itachi would close his eyes to switch to MS and Jiraiya would already be attacking knowing not to look.


----------



## Karma カルマ (Oct 24, 2009)

Well Cyphon prepare yourself for me. I will be doing up a post when I find a rock.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> He saw through it immediately. Like I said and the manga showed, Juugo was the one who didn't see through it.



Which begs the question as to why Juugo was the one who reacted to the Raikage's blitz and not Sasuke with his predictive Sharingan?



Cyphon said:


> And who has Itachi beat? *Fodder Akutski*, *fodder Sannin* and fodder Uchiha.



Fodder Sanin. Precisely. 



Cyphon said:


> Pain and Konan knew most of Jiraiya's arsenal outside of SM and I believe they even thought "Yomi Numa!" as he did it. So they knew he had the jutsu IIRC and still couldn't avoid it.



I would love a scan of this.



Cyphon said:


> And the bodies being 1 dimensional doesn't mean much when it comes to the technique as it will trap you know matter what unless you know it is coming or just happen to to a big jump as he uses it.



So because the body it captured is 1-dimensional that proves that it will capture anyone even if they're not one-dimensional? 



Cyphon said:


> No. He would see the Sharingan, Itachi would close his eyes to switch to MS and Jiraiya would already be attacking knowing not to look.



Itachi doesn't have to close his eyes to switch to MS lol.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Gally said:


> Well Cyphon prepare yourself for me. I will be doing up a post when I find a rock.





			
				Illusory said:
			
		

> A fodder snake and a weaker Pein body?





Cyphon said:


> And who has Itachi beat? *Fodder Akutski*, *fodder Sannin* and fodder Uchiha.



This wasn't a /thread moment?


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Which begs the question as to why Juugo was the one who reacted to the Raikage's blitz and not Sasuke with his predictive Sharingan?



The same reason Raikage wasn't the first to stop Sasuke when he blitzed. The first parts of the fight were designed to show off the guards.



Juugo seeing the effects of the genjutsu.



Sasuke more or less telling him it wasn't one showing no sign of worry. 

Unless you think Juugo saw through it before Sasuke 



> I would love a scan of this.





She knew this technique as soon as she saw it.



Pain knew the barrier jutsu and what it did.



Here is Jiraiya noting that Pain being his former student has a grasp on his weak points.



Here is Pain's thought bubble about the swamp.....or I think it is. It may not be.



> So because the body it captured is 1-dimensional that proves that it will capture anyone even if they're not one-dimensional?



1 dimensional doesn't mean he can't jump, run, dodge, shunshin etc...



> Itachi doesn't have to close his eyes to switch to MS lol.



He has always had to for the initial shot(s)


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Aw thank you. Yes, it is suspect on whether he had knowledge of Yomi Numa. All the same though, I don't believe that argument should be used against Itachi as Human Realm is a great deal less advanced and one-dimensional than the Uchiha prodigy. As for the Sasuke issue, it was still fairly obvious, Sugietsu even stated as much, that the Genjutsu caught him off guard despite seeing right through it. I have a theory as to why Juugo has an easy time with Genjutsu, but I won't waste your time with that.



Cyphon said:


> He has always had to for the initial shot(s)



Not against  They even make a noise when they transform lol, "shuuuu." It's not a requirement in the anime nor in the manga. It would take away the fun of the kaleidoscope.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Not against  They even make a noise when they transform lol, "shuuuu." It's not a requirement in the anime nor in the manga. It would take away the fun of the kaleidoscope.



IIRC every other time he had to close his eyes. Probably just Kishi fuckin up.

Anyway, Its still not instant. He has to activate it first.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> IIRC every other time he had to close his eyes. Probably just Kishi fuckin up.



I  think so.



Cyphon said:


> Anyway, Its still not instant. He has to activate it first.



Seems pretty instant.


----------



## Ra (Oct 24, 2009)

I'll clarify- Jiraiya has no knowledge and he possess no knowledge of the sharingan.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I  think so.













It seems there are more times they need to be closed then they don't. Its either inconsistency by Kishi or something we don't know about it.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> It seems there are more times they need to be closed then they don't. Its either inconsistency by Kishi or something we don't know about it.



You see, the thing about that is that there's nothing to suggest they *have* to be closed. If Jiraiya scratched his head before summoning 8/10 times that doesn't mean he *has* to do it to summon. I provided links showing that the transition could be made with open eyes. It's not like Jiraiya has the speed to kill Itachi while he blinks anyways.


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2009)

Illusory said:


> You see, the thing about that is that there's nothing to suggest they *have* to be closed. If Jiraiya scratched his head before summoning 8/10 times that doesn't mean he *has* to do it to summon. I provided links showing that the transition could be made with open eyes.



If Jiraiya scratched his head 8/10 times before summoning you could consider it a quirk. When every person who uses MS has closed their eyes MOST of the time they use the technique, it becomes more than just a quirk a person may have.

I forgot to include Kakashi scans btw. 

So again, there is something we don't know or its simply more Kishi inconsistency. 



> It's not like Jiraiya has the speed to kill Itachi while he blinks anyways.



Yomi Numa would put Itachi in a very bad way and even throw off the level of his eyes and in SM pretty much anything Jiraiya does would be fast enough to kill Itachi before he opens his eyes again. 

Even if it wouldn't kill him it puts him in a very bad position defensively.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> If Jiraiya scratched his head 8/10 times before summoning you could consider it a quirk. When every person who uses MS has closed their eyes MOST of the time they use the technique, it becomes more than just a quirk a person may have.



I don't follow your logic. Why isn't it just a quirk? What if Jiraiya rubbed his hands together MOST of the time? Would it be a requirement?


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 24, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I don't follow your logic. Why isn't it just a quirk? What if Jiraiya rubbed his hands together MOST of the time? Would it be a requirement?



Because of the following:



			
				Dictionary.com said:
			
		

> quirk
> /kwɜrk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kwurk] Show IPA
> Use quirk in a Sentence
> See web results for quirk
> ...



Itachi always does it. Therefore, it's more of a prerequisite than a quirk.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 24, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Itachi *always* does it. Therefore, it's more of a prerequisite than a quirk.



This is why pretty women should be seen, not heard 

I provided scans of Itachi not ALWAYS doing it.


----------



## Uchiha Daryl (Oct 24, 2009)

Well,
Itachi wouldn't be able to use genjutsu as effectively as usual, due to Ma and Pa being able to nullify it a la Killer Bee. The question is whether this nullification would be INSTANT, as to whether if Itachi made a genjutsu that was NOT obvious, if the frog elders would notice or not. Unforunately, there's no conclusive evidence, so I will not bother to make an assumption.

IF the frog sages do not pick up on it immediately, Jiraiya's goose is cooked.

If not, then the battle depends on ninjutsu and taijutsu.  I doubt that Frog song will help, as Itachi's genjutsu is just THAT good that I am pretty sure he would be able to reverse it or nullify it.

Upon realising this, I still think Itachi would have an advantage. I can easily see him using bunshins to absorb most of Jiraiya's attacks and distract him, since we know Itachi LOVES bunshins. Due to Sage Modes hardy nature and extreme speed, most likely an amaterasu would be needed to finish Jiraiya off, or in an extreme case, Susanoo


----------



## Karma カルマ (Oct 25, 2009)

When they say both have knowledge of each others abilities do you mean all? Or a basic overview?

I also disagree with Ma and Pa being able to break genjutsu as quickly as Cyphon is making it sound. Jiraiya's chakra went crazy when Pain stabbed him and Pa had no clue what was going on. He had to ask Jiraiya what was wrong IIRC. So the idea of Ma and Pa immediately realizing and breaking genjutsu is farfetched.


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Oct 25, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I'd like to see the databook scan for that jutsu. Anyways, the language in the manga makes it clear that Pein didn't "fall in to a trap" he *charged* in to it because one replaceable body was worth killing Jiraiya.



Read the fucking MANGA before responding!

"And he ain't laible to fall for that barrier trap again."



> Itachi's Sword of Totsuka or Amatarasu would do the job quite nicely if Jiraiya thought he was being clever by hiding inside a barrier that the Sharingan can see.




Like Animal realm, who has the rin nengan


Itachi dies in acid






> He does indeed. However, if you'd like to spite manga evidence and assume:
> 
> 1. He can stare in to Itachi's eyes and brush off Tsukiyomi




NO! not bush off Tsukuyomi! but suivive it long enough to kill Itachi with Yomi Numa or kill him with a barrier jutsu.



> 2. Normal Sharingan Genjutsu won't work for even two seconds.



If it is the one used on Deidera and Naruto than no, If it is the one used on Orochimaru, Then yes! It will work. But Jiraiya can use jutsu without handseals and can create a barrier with only one hand.


> 3. Finger Genjutsu won't work on him for two seconds



Definately not, It is useless against high level opponents



> 4. None of his Genjutsu can be reused for any purpose



And Jiraiya can't counter, with his own ninjutsu



> 5. Summons can't be put under Genjutsu.



And Jiraiya can't snap them out.



> 6. Itachi can't do anything while Jiraiya's in a Genjutsu.



Does Itachi do anything on his victim. While controlling the Genjutsu.



> 7. He can fight effectively by staring at Itachi's feet only.



Fight with his eyes closed, fight with a Kage bunshin like Kakashi.




> 8. He can speed rape Itachi and end it instantly.



He can, in HM



> 9. Itachi doesn't have the reflexes to block lightning



Does he? prood


> 10. Jiraiya has reflexes and speed like the Raikage to avoid Amatarasu



His reflexes should be atleast on par with Gaara, who can block Amaterasu.



> 11. He's also watching Itachi's eyes to know Amatarasu is coming



Yes,



> 12. Shinobi can't move or use jutsu in Susano



Well he couldn't Susanoo does take ALOT of chakra, Itachi's stamina is crap.





> 13. Itachi's Amatarasu is as potent as Sasuke's Amatarasu



Your, right sasuke's is better.



> 14. He'll fight Jiraiya like he fought Sasuke.



Actually he will fight like he did to Oro, right?

And  thus hence die like Animal realm.



> 15. Yomi Numa kills ninjas of Itachi's skill level.



Hippocrisy! is expected!

Like how Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo can kill someone of Jiraiya's skill level right.



> 16. He knows that Susano is unbreakable and impassable & won't approach




After the first his, he will realize that Susanoo is unbreakable. Susanoo is still breakable, mini one is.







GrandKitaro777 said:


> Again what's stopping itachi from seeing the barrier with his sharingan?


Proof that the sharingan can see barriers 




> The rinnegan and sharingan are two different doujutsus.



Your right Rin nengan is the better dojutsu. And the sharingan is a diluted Rin nengan. 



> It's not a trap if the sharingan can see it.



But it is a *trap *cause the sharingan can't see it. Proof me sharingan can see barriers.




> Ma and Pa gathers the natural energy not Jiraiya, thus the genjutsu can go undetected.



I am not saying about gathering Natural energy I am talking about sensing where Itachi's chakra can enter Jiraiya's body undetected.

Jiriaya can sense and absorb Natural energy, He can use HM without Ma and Pa.  His shadow clone is in HM without Ma and Pa

Hence due to his ability to sense energy  he should be able to sense when an Alien chakra (Itachi's chakra) is entering into his body.



> Point still stands that he could kill himself.



No some justu can make some kill themself. But not all! 

eg: If some one kicks Itachi in the balls and Itachi casts genjutsu on the guy before hand. How the fuck does he make the other guy kick himself in the balls.

Your post reminded me of a parody 


No he can't do that while drowning in acid.


----------



## Vergil642 (Oct 25, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Read the fucking MANGA before responding!
> 
> "And he ain't laible to fall for that barrier trap again."



Ah, yet more evidence of Pain not being a genius.

, it looks a lot like that barrier jutsu requires the frog to transform into a bigass frog similar to  .

And as I'm confident you'll misonconstrue what I'm saying, I'll spell it out. Unless you believe Pain somehow got tricked into jumping into the mouth of a frog (which is retarded on Pain's part), I would suggest Pain probably went into the open mouth of a large frog that proceeded to shrink to the size of the frog we saw Jiraiya climb out of.



> Like Animal realm, who has the rin nengan
> 
> 
> Itachi dies in acid



Except the only reason we even believe Rinnegan can do this is because Deva saw chakra concentrated in Tsunade and her ANBU's feet. Besides the fact Deva's the only one who exhibit any powers beyond the basic ones Nagato gives each body, and the fact these powers are related to detection (the rain and his ability to ). Oh, and because Sharingan and Byakugan can do it. Even though such comparisons are fairly worthless because Sharingan requires the ability to see chakra for it's copying ability and Byakugan's built purely around the idea of seeing through shit. Rinnegan on the other hand just means you can train yourself to do basically anything. There's no real evidence the Pain bodies can see chakra other than Deva Realm.



> NO! not bush off Tsukuyomi! but suivive it long enough to kill Itachi with Yomi Numa or kill him with a barrier jutsu.



Honestly 

. He can take this much punishment and stay conscious only a little longer. Itachi can make him suffer that a thousandfold in Tsukuyomi, plus any fun emotional torture he might wanna cook up. Jiraiya's state of consciousness after he's hit by Tsukuyomi is decided by Itachi.



> If it is the one used on Deidera and Naruto than no, If it is the one used on Orochimaru, Then yes! It will work. But Jiraiya can use jutsu without handseals and can create a barrier with only one hand.



When did Jiraiya use Ninjutsu without handseals? Oh wait, Rasengan. Yeah, that'll help when his senses are Itachi's bitch.

Mind you, Ni Dai Sennin will bust him out of Genjutsu (except Tsukuyomi) quickly. But then again, him being temporarily open could be tremendously helpful for Itachi.



> Definately not, It is useless against high level opponents



Wow, look at all that proof you just provided. The only reason we don't think it's as powerful as Sharingan Genjutsu is because we have a better idea of how powerful that stuff is (hint: fucking strong) and we only saw Utakata once.



> And Jiraiya can't counter, with his own ninjutsu



Well no, not unless he closes his eyes and trusts his luck with that barrier jutsu. Which is a pretty retarded idea, considering he even points out that . As there's no proof the barrier jutsu in question detects your every movement, down to things like finger movements, it's not going to help Jiraiya too much.

Especially not when Jiraiya's got two people in contact with him at all times to break him out. Really, there's no need for the sensing barrier technique he has when there's two partners to break him out of Itachi's basic Genjutsu.



> And Jiraiya can't snap them out.



He can if he's in contact with them. And realises they're under a Genjutsu.



> Does Itachi do anything on his victim. While controlling the Genjutsu.



He tends not to as otherwise he'd have no excuse when he doesn't kill them. It's part of his whole "I'm evil, totally evil" lie.



> Fight with his eyes closed, fight with a Kage bunshin like Kakashi.



Jiraiya can't fight effectively with his eyes closed, Itachi can see if a KB's been created and act accordingly (namely test the water with a Genjutsu first as that shows Itachi if he hits a KB or not before using Tsukuyomi on the real one and hit both Jiraiya's with Amaterasu). Or counter the KB with one of his Karasu ones.



> He can, in HM



No he can't. The only reason we think he's speed Tier 5 in HM is because it gives you a considerable speed boost. That means he's going to be at the same level of speed Itachi's at when he goes HM. Even without the Sharingan Itachi can keep up with Jiraiya. With it he can not only keep up but kill him in Taijutsu by stabbing him with kunai.



> Does he? prood



I can't really argue in favour of this as I'm of the belief he activated Susanoo a moment before the lightning struck.



> His reflexes should be atleast on par with Gaara, who can block Amaterasu.



Gaara can block Kagatsuchi, the flames of which do not simply ignite on you but are controlled after they're ignited.



> Yes,



So he gets Tsukuyomi'd. Wonderful.

And spontaneously knows what indicates Amaterasu is coming and magically knows how Amaterasu ignites on your ass. Despite...



GrandKitaro777 said:


> Restrictions: None
> 
> Location: Where killerbee fought
> 
> ...





> Well he couldn't Susanoo does take ALOT of chakra, Itachi's stamina is crap.



Despite Itachi appearing completely unaffected until after he offed Oro.



> Your, right sasuke's is better.



Sasuke has more control through Kagatsuchi. If anything, his is less powerful as it hasn't got the feats Itachi's has.



> Actually he will fight like he did to Oro, right?
> 
> And  thus hence die like Animal realm.



Except he'll notice his Genjtusu's been broken if he didn't already cut off Jiraiya's arm/got repelled by Ni Dai Sennin and evade the kick with ease thanks to his massively superior reflexes.



> Hippocrisy! is expected!
> 
> Like how Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo can kill someone of Jiraiya's skill level right.



Considering Yomi Numa's lethality is questionable (it's about as lethal as Amaterasu is hot as the sun, according to the DB), despite it being a weak argument his still retains more legitimacy than yours.

Not saying much either way though.

Yomi Numa's Jiraiya's only hope, and a very questionable one at that.



> After the first his, he will realize that Susanoo is unbreakable. Susanoo is still breakable, mini one is.



Except Jiraiya hasn't got anything comperable to Kirin in terms of power. He isn't breaking Susanoo at all. He can expect to bounce off Yata's Mirror and be skewered in mid air. Or just incinerated with Amaterasu.



> Proof that the sharingan can see barriers



Considering the barrier is a frog and probably a large one when Jiraiya lures victims into it (see the top of this post), I'm betting it probably can.

Heck, I'm betting even you could see a giant frog unless it was cleverly disguised. Perhaps with a moustache and large glasses.


----------



## Vergil642 (Oct 25, 2009)

> Your right Rin nengan is the better dojutsu. And the sharingan is a diluted Rin nengan.



Except Sharingan can do things Rinnegan can't. The Rinnegan's better because it allows you to become powerful without limit. That's it's one advantage over everything.



> But it is a *trap *cause the sharingan can't see it. Proof me sharingan can see barriers.



Sharingan can see chakra. The trap has chakra in it. Logic dictates the Sharingan can see the trap, or at least the chakra it's made of.

Also, you'd be well advised to look into the trap you tout so much as a godly jutsu. It'd save embarassment later.



> I am not saying about gathering Natural energy I am talking about sensing where Itachi's chakra can enter Jiraiya's body undetected.
> 
> Jiriaya can sense and absorb Natural energy, He can use HM without Ma and Pa.  His shadow clone is in HM without Ma and Pa
> 
> Hence due to his ability to sense energy  he should be able to sense when an Alien chakra (Itachi's chakra) is entering into his body.



For a start, a KB is a perfect replica of you. Naturally it is a perfect replica of you down to your current appearance. 

Now, for something that applies to Jiraiya directly: 

Jiraiya can?t use it alone according to Ni Dai Sennin.

And Jiraiya?s ability to sense natural energy doesn?t mean he can sense other?s chakra. Only Naruto has shown this ability and he?s a lot better at it than Jiraiya. And if Jiraiya was as great at sensing chakra as you say, how?d  



> No some justu can make some kill themself. But not all!
> 
> eg: If some one kicks Itachi in the balls and Itachi casts genjutsu on the guy before hand. How the fuck does he make the other guy kick himself in the balls.
> 
> Your post reminded me of a parody



Good thing Jiraiya has a couple of jutsu that he can use to kill himself then 



> No he can't do that while drowning in acid.



I?ve already pointed out how unlikely it is this will occur.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 25, 2009)

Turrin said:


> He Avoids Eye Contact Until he does that which wouldn't take him long at all as Ma's Dust cloud can be cast almost instantly and Jiraiya's Detection barrier takes a clap of the feat. So Yes in HM i'm pretty confident that Jiraiya can do ether of those things before Itachi Shunshin's 50m and forces a HM Jiriaya to look into his eyes.



50m when talking about supersonic opponents might as well be 5 inches. Itachi is going to blitz him and make eye-contact first, that's just how it is.



> Yes being Instantly forced to use your Second Most Draining Technique with in a few minutes of the start of the battle always bodes well.



If it gets the job done, then who's going to complain?



> If Genjutsu even works on HM Jiraiya. And If There is a Clear LOS that isn't being obstructed by Dust Cloud or Smoke Bombs and if Jiraiya's doesn't use his Barrier or Ma's Biological Detection to Fight Itachi instead of looking him in the eyes then Tsukyomi may work, but considering Jiraiya willed himself back to life itachi is going to have a hell of a time breaking him mentally even in Tskuyomi.



It took the loss of an arm and getting stabbed in six places with his throat crushed to put Jiraiya in that state. Try that again over the course of 72 hours. Breaking Jiraiya with Tsukuyomi would be easy.



> So Thats why Jiraiya has better Speed Feats then Raikage...Right...



He doesn't. Raikage is faster than Sasuke's Persistence of Vision, even with Sharingan. Jiraiya was tracked by Pain, all of whom are slower than Sasuke and don't have enhanced vision.



> And Where is the Proof or Feats that Itachi is as Fast as HM Jiraiya? Itachi doesn't have any speed feats close to HM Jiraiya's.



He's a full half-tier faster than base Jiraiya and is fast enough even after Tsukuyomi to dodge ALL of Sasuke's attacks, except for a trap shuriken, which Zetsu stated he could've dodged in his prime anyway (with ease). I'd say that's...about the same level as Sennin Jiraiya.



> -Why Would Jiraiya ever Be Stationary during the heat of battle when Itachi would be forced to Use Ameretsu



To attack, to talk, to pose... There are a variety of reasons. He was stationary plenty of times in the Pain fight.



> -Again HM Jiraiya can likely Dodge it. Just Because Raikage was able to Dodge it doesn't mean some one needs to be as Fast as Raikage to Dodge it. It Just means Raikage did it with ease. Fast Characters like HM Jiraiya will also be able to dodge it, but probably just with a greater difficulty then Raikage. And to argue that HM Jiraiya isn't even close to Raikage's Speed level is baseless since i could argue Raikage is slower then Jiriaya based on the fact that jiraiya has better feats, but i'm giving Raikage's hype of being faster then Minato's Physical Reflexes in R2 the benifit of the doubt.



You'd have to show me these "better feats", otherwise I'm just going to laugh at you and tell you that Jiraiya being faster than Raikage is absurd. Raikage is faster than Sennin Jiraiya and he STILL needed Shunshin to dodge Amaterasu.

And what's "R2"? Are we talking about Ulquiorra here, or the little robot from Star Wars? 



> A Few Seconds is enough time for HM Jiraiya to pull out a Fire Seal or Block LOS. So Yeah you just proved your own point wrong congratz.



Not possible while running at top speed to avoid getting fried.



> Yes because Yata no Kagami can nullify in 360 degrees despite the fact that the shield does not cover 360 degrees. To Be Fair i'm not Sure what would happen in a clash between Yomi Numa and Susano'o, but at the very least it would Slow Susano'o down a Great deal and Give Jiraiya time to put massive distance between him and Susano'o and come up with another Strategy or plan or out last it better.



It can move through the ground and can be turned all around Itachi; once it nullifies the area under him, he can free himself and let it clear a swath for him to walk on as he moves through it. Also, Jiraiya doesn't even know that Susano'o CAN be outlasted, so that won't work. He'll stand there dumbfounded wondering what is going on, and before he knows it he'll be pierced.



> So your point in this debate which is about HM Jiriaya vs Itachi at 50m that if Itachi started at 5m and as against Base Jiraiya he would win? Yes i would agree that under those extremely rare conditions where a battle starts on an open field with no LOS blocking obstacles and the fighters start the match at directly 5m from each other that Itachi would likely win(Not as easy as you make it seem though).
> 
> So Yes Itachi can get his own Favorable Circumstances where he starts at his optimal range on an optimal battle field against Base Jiraiya and he would also have a huge advantage and beat Jiraiya. They are equals so it is to be expect that they would each do better depending on Battle Field, Optimal ranges, etc...



Lol-fucking-wat. "Favorable"? "Extremely rare"? 99.99% of all fights start within 5m, and nearly that many start without any form of visible obstruction. I bet you couldn't even name a single fight that started past 5m AND had LOS blocked. You wannt talk "rare" and "favorable" circumstances? That's exactly what this thread is founded on, because no fight EVER starts at 50m. People don't just...spot eachother hundreds of feet away...and then initiate a challenge. Doesn't work like that.

These are the most likely circumstances of a confrontation between the two. Nothing rare or favorable or optimal about them. This business of...starting 50m away...in a grove of trees...is pure fanfic...and never happens.



> Fixed it for you.



That's not even grammatically correct. 



Cyphon said:


> Except I believe he can avoid/have Ma and Pa keep him from Tsukiyami, dodge/stop Amaterasu and Yomi Numa > Susanoo.



Except that he has never made an effort to avoid Tsukuyomi, can easily be hit with Amaterasu if he's not already moving, and Yomi Numa is just like any other Doton move which can be nullified by the Yata no Kagami. 



> You would have to prove any of this before I even consider the point. Either way it is simply Shunshin that was used to dodge Amaterasu. Jiraiya can Shunshin and is definitely in the highest tier of speed in SM + he has knowledge of Amaterasu.



He has no knowlede of Amaterasu's execution, so knowing that it exists is worthless to him. Plus, there is a huge difference between Raikage's Shunshin and Sennin Jiraiya's Shunshin. They really...can't even be considered the same thing...since Raikage's base speed is arguably hypersonic already.



> I never said it wasn't speculation, but he probably knows more than you think. Raikage's guard seemed to know a lot about Itachi for some reason including how well he could use Amaterasu so I don't doubt Jiraiya has pretty much full knowledge of it being that he has been shown to have encountered it and sealed it to take with him.
> 
> But I must concede the point that we simply can't be sure.



Shi doesn't know anything about Itachi, hence his remark had no weight.

But the fact of the matter is that this is pure speculation, so it can't be used. Jiraiya sealed it, that's all.



> 1. Oro is slower than even base Jiraiya and wasn't even trying to dodge so there isn't all that much of a speed gauge on Susanoo.
> 
> 2. What does its size have to do with? We saw Pain dodging boss summons and hes not as fast as Jiraiya.



1. There is no significant different between the two of them in terms of speed, and saying that Oro didn't try to dodge is baseless, because he was clearly surprised when it hit him.

2. Boss summons are slow. Itachi's Susano'o clearly isn't, since it blitzed Orochimaru and tore apart a boss-sized summon with ease.


----------



## the box (Oct 25, 2009)

> Nikushimi said:
> 
> 
> > 50m when talking about supersonic opponents might as well be 5 inches. Itachi is going to blitz him and make eye-contact first, that's just how it is.
> ...


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> "And he ain't laible to fall for that barrier trap again."



Looks like Vergil answered this pretty easily. If the barrier is composed of chakra and the Rinnegan can see chakra and barriers ... and if Jiraiya said Animal Realm *charged* in to it. If Jiraiya also said he was more or less hiding in that barrier, not exactly tricking Pein, and if only one Pein attacked and not the other five... I think my analysis was far more accurate. I've also noticed that you use the databook to supplement this argument. Did you know the databook says that the Mirror Yata reflects any jutsu? I guess Jiraiya is bathing in acid tonight, not Itachi.



Illusory said:


> 1. He can stare in to Itachi's eyes and brush off Tsukiyomi
> 2. Normal Sharingan Genjutsu won't work for even two seconds.
> 3. Finger Genjutsu won't work on him for two seconds
> 4. None of this Genjutsu can be reused for any purpose
> ...





Dariustwinblade said:


> 1. NO! not bush off Tsukuyomi! but suivive it long enough to kill Itachi with Yomi Numa or kill him with a barrier jutsu.





			
				Illusory said:
			
		

> 15. Yomi Numa kills ninjas of Itachi's skill level.



That's assumption number fifteen. That jutsus feats include temporarily trapping, for moments, a one-dimensional Pein body that most people agree is even with Kiba and yet it kills Itachi. Also, Tsukiyomi takes Jiraiya out. He's not recovering from it.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 2. If it is the [genjutsu] used on Deidera and Naruto than no, If it is the one used on Orochimaru, Then yes! It will work. But Jiraiya can use jutsu without handseals and can create a barrier with only one hand.



Naruto was under that Genjutsu for a few seconds at least and Deidara specifically trained his eye to see through Genjutsu. The point is that Jiraiya will be helpless, if only momentarily, in this intense fight and that's gamebreaking and can be spammed as Jiraiya hasn't been shown to fight efficiently with the handicap of looking at someone's feet.. 



Dariustwinblade said:


> 3. Definately not, [finger genjutsu] is useless against high level opponents



Do you have a scan that implies high leveled opponents won't be caught in this Genjutsu for even two seconds? Naruto was at the Jounin level at that time and he even used Jiraiya's method of breaking Genjutsu with little effect. I'm not saying Jiraiya can't, but I am saying it will take some time before he even notices he is in one.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 4. And Jiraiya can't counter, with his own ninjutsu



How do you counter Genjutsu with Ninjutsu? Itachi can spam these to his heart's content as they're chakra-efficient and he only needs Jiraiya to look at his finger or eyes and Jiraiya hasn't been shown to be capable of fighting like Gai.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 5. And Jiraiya can't snap them out.



But will he do so immediately? Before they intercept one of his Ninjutsu like Sasuke did to Manda? Itachi can use them against him, and only a few seconds would be useful as he could easily land the Sword of Totsuka at this stage of the battle.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 6. Does Itachi do anything on his victim. While controlling the Genjutsu.



He has been shown to yes, but he was also shown to lack killing intent.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Fight with his eyes closed, fight with a Kage bunshin like Kakashi.



Jiraiya can beat Itachi with his eyes closed  and KB are useful, but we see how easily Itachi dispatched clones and how superior his own clones are as they are far more durable than Jiraiya's own.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 7. He can, in HM



So Hermit Mode magically gives him the months of training Gai spent being able to accurately understand how to fight Kakashi, let alone Itachi, from the movements of his feet? My, you Jiraiya fans are chimerical!



Dariustwinblade said:


> 8. Does he? prood



He lacks any good ones and is far inferior to Naruto in speed feats so I would say no. 



Dariustwinblade said:


> 9. His reflexes should be atleast on par with Gaara, who can block Amaterasu.



*Sasuke's* Amatarsu that's not even directed at him was being used as a guard against the Raikage. It wasn't moving. Later in the fight Gaara was more than 5 meters away, which vastly slows down Amatarasu's delivery, and simply had to block Sasuke's line of sight as that's how Amatarasu works. Jiraiya doesn't have the reflexes and Itachi would likely use it closer up.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 10. Yes



I'm glad you think Jiraiya has the reflexes and speed like the Raikage, but you have no feats to back this claim other than easily being blocked by Human Realm whose only feat was beating Shizune, wow. But I get it, Jiraiya doesn't stand a chance without them.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 11. Well he couldn't Susanoo does take ALOT of chakra, Itachi's stamina is crap.



Itachi can have Susano out for quite some time and use 4 other Mangyekou attacks as well as a bunch of Genjutsu and Ninjutsu. If he's lethal, it won't take that much to kill Jiraiya, not even close. This is with his stamina vastly weakened because of his sickness as well as giving Naruto his power. Not that you responded to how Jiraiya is going to block Amatarasu, even with the speed and reflexes of the Raikage, if he's not watching Itachi's eyes like the Raikage was doing to Sasuke.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 12. Your, right sasuke's is better.



Not according to Sasuke or the databook.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 13. Actually he will fight like he did to Oro, right?



The second time when he pwned him in two seconds while completely blind and moments away from succumbing to sickness? Although I bet he could pwn Jiraiya at 11 without the Mangyekou too 



Dariustwinblade said:


> 14. And thus hence die like Animal realm.



See, you think this because Itachi was planning to die to Sasuke. If Itachi was planning to Jiraiya this might work, although probably not.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Like how Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo can kill someone of Jiraiya's skill level right.



Well, lets see here: Orochimaru, Kakashi, and Deidara are all arguably on, near, or above Jiraiya's skill level where as Human Realm is nowhere near Itachi's. So really Yomi : Itachi =/= Mangyekou : Jiraiya and only a desperate Jiraiya fan would make that argument.



Dariustwinblade said:


> 16. After the first his, he will realize that Susanoo is unbreakable. Susanoo is still breakable, mini one is.



See, you're confusing Sasuke and Itachi again. Itachi's aura blocked Kirin. Has Jiraiya shown a more powerful attack the Kirin? No? Does he know not to charge? No? Are his reactions that far above Orochimaru's who didn't even register the blow from the Sword of Totsuka? No? Hmm.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2009)

Gally said:


> When they say both have knowledge of each others abilities do you mean all? Or a basic overview?



The creator of the thread said Jiraiya doesn't even have basic knowledge of the Sharingan. Everyone's ignoring that because it's kind of a joke thread then as Itachi probably doesn't even need his Mangyekou. Without knowledge of Tsukiyomi, Jiriaya is liable to stare in to Itachi's eyes like he did in the hotel and being vulnerable to Tsukiyomi so now we're just granting Jiraiya full knowledge more or less.



Gally said:


> I also disagree with Ma and Pa being able to break genjutsu as quickly as Cyphon is making it sound. Jiraiya's chakra went crazy when Pain stabbed him and Pa had no clue what was going on. He had to ask Jiraiya what was wrong IIRC. So the idea of Ma and Pa immediately realizing and breaking genjutsu is farfetched.



Wow, thanks  

So if Ma and Pa didn't realize Jiraiya's chakra go haywire and the power of the Rinnegan charging in to him and only questioned him because of his facial expression then they're most definitely not going to notice a subtle manipulation of chakra that is spammable Genjutsu. This almost guarantees Itachi a few free seconds, if not a longer, which guarantees him landing Tsukiyomi, Amatarasu, or even a shunshin stab. Things just appear more and more desolate for the honest Jiraiya fan.


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## the box (Oct 25, 2009)

Illusory said:


> The creator of the thread said Jiraiya doesn't even have basic knowledge of the Sharingan. Everyone's ignoring that because it's kind of a joke thread then. Without knowledge of Tsukiyomi, Jiriaya is liable to stare in to Itachi's eyes like he did in the hotel so now we're just granting Jiraiya full knowledge more or less.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, thanks  So if Ma and Pa didn't realize Jiraiya's chakra go haywire and the power of the Rinnegan charging in to him then* they're most definitely not going to notice a subtle manipulation of chakra that is Genjutsu*. This almost guarantees Itachi a few free moments which guarantees him landing a fatal blow.



if jiraya is caught in genjutsu why wouldent they know if they are right on his shoulders and he is just zoning out.


also genjutsu is still genjutsu it takes time to cast and ma and pa are going to have itachi to busy to use genjutsu anyway


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## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2009)

the box said:


> if jiraya is caught in genjutsu why wouldent they know if they are right on his shoulders and he is just zoning out.



I'm not saying they wouldn't notice him zoning out, but it takes at least a few seconds for someone to notice someone is zoning out. How long did it take Chiyo and Sakura, who are arguably more observant that Ma and Pa, to notice Naruto was zoning out?



the box said:


> *also genjutsu is still genjutsu it takes time to cast *and ma and pa are going to have itachi to busy to use genjutsu anyway



Um? What? Eye contact or looking at someone's finger is *taking time*? Or do you mean that huge amount of time that it takes Itachi to form a single seal? Also, I would imagine Genjutsu would come before Ma and Pa kept him busy as Itachi almost always lands it before taking heat.

*Edit:* Sorry, I didn't mean _"almost always"_ I meant *"always."*


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## Karma カルマ (Oct 25, 2009)

the box said:


> if jiraya is caught in genjutsu why wouldent they know if they are right on his shoulders and he is just zoning out.
> 
> 
> also genjutsu is still genjutsu it takes time to cast and ma and pa are going to have itachi to busy to use genjutsu anyway



Maybe the same reason Pa was sitting on his shoulder when Jiraiya was struggling to gain control of his chakra without noticing. 



It was only when Jiraiya said exactly what was wrong with him did they figure it out. Also why aren't the sages themselves a target for genjutsu? 

Obviously the sages will notice but every slip up or slow down in such a high level battle can cost someone their life.  

Takes time to cast? What are you talking about? Naruto was trapped the moment he saw Itachi's finger. Kakashi was trapped the moment he locked eyes with itachi. Deidara was trapped the moment Itachi activated his sharingan. Deidara was trapped the moment he locked eyes with sasuke. What on earth are you talking about time to cast? 

Itachi is capable of multitasking seeing as he trapped Naruto and then proceeded to fight Kakashi.


----------



## the box (Oct 25, 2009)

> Illusory said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not saying they wouldn't notice him zoning out, but it takes at least a few seconds for someone to notice someone is zoning out. How long did it take Chiyo and Sakura, who are arguably more observant that Ma and Pa, to notice Naruto was zoning out?
> ...


----------



## Karma カルマ (Oct 25, 2009)

Was Itachi ever trying to fight Jiraiya in the aforementioned scenario? What kind of example is that?

Suppose Itachi had given himself and Kisame the upper hand? What on earth would his reasoning to kisame have been when he refused to kill Jiraiya? Itachi is trying to aid Konoha and Sasuke. Not murder off other high level Konoha nin that are necessary to the villages survival.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2009)

the box said:


> not very long actually only a second



Hahaha? What nonsense is this? Snap your fingers. You're telling me they would realize he was zoning out *and* break him out of the Genjutsu in that time when Jiraiya was flipping out for several seconds and they didn't know what was going on? Get real. I appreciate your "lol Uchiha" thing, but that's just ridiculous. 

I would say the minimum of noticing someone zoning out, and this is if they're paying attention to him and not Itachi, is three seconds and another two seconds to break him out. This is if they don't think he's forming a plan or something. If they're paying attention to Itachi, as they should be, the timeframe would be a few seconds longer.



the box said:


> why wasent itachi able to genjutsu jiraya when they were trying to escape if the almighty god could do it and notibly save time



Why would he Genjutsu when he only needed an Amatarasu to escape?


----------



## the box (Oct 25, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Hahaha? What nonsense is this? Snap your fingers. You're telling me they would realize he was zoning out *and* break him out of the Genjutsu in that time when Jiraiya was flipping out for several seconds and they didn't know what was going on? Get real. I appreciate your "lol Uchiha" thing, but that's just ridiculous.
> 
> I would say the minimum of noticing someone zoning out, and this is if they're paying attention to him and not Itachi, is three seconds and another two seconds to break him out. This is if they don't think he's forming a plan or something. If they're paying attention to Itachi, as they should be, the timeframe would be a few seconds longer.
> 
> ...



cant jiraya just break himself out.


and if itachi used genjutsu jiraya wouldent have been able to trap them


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## Karma カルマ (Oct 25, 2009)

Firstly Box. Jiraiya's jutsu was a summon that once he evoked it, it would have sustained itself despite him being under genjutsu or not. 

Secondly Itachi was not trying to kill or engage Jiraiya so your entire point is moot.

Thirdly Itachi turned his back to Jiraiya to go mess with sasuke. Clearly Jiraiya was not even on his mind as he had no intention of tussling with Jiraiya.

I agree Jiraiya can break genjutsu or Ma and Pa can break it for him, but the realization that he is under genjutsu is not immediate and neither is breaking it. These two factors are vital in his survival against an opponent that isn't just going to stand up there and watch him break genjutsu.

I have not taken aside at the moment and I am replying to you because to me your points are inaccurate.


----------



## the box (Oct 25, 2009)

> Gally said:
> 
> 
> > Firstly Box. Jiraiya's jutsu was a summon that once he evoked it, it would have sustained itself despite him being under genjutsu or not.
> ...


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2009)

Gally said:


> Firstly Box. Jiraiya's jutsu was a summon that once he evoked it, it would have sustained itself despite him being under genjutsu or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I put scans in there for you, Box


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2009)

the box said:


> you forget he didnt summon it until the end



Itachi never engaged Jiraiya.



the box said:


> and jiraya was just trying to capture itachi



_"You won't get Naruto!"_ - Jiraiya

_"And why not?"_ - Itachi

 - Jiraiya 

I could tell Itachi was shakin' in his boots in that exchange 



the box said:


> notonly that but genjutsu dosent kill



Not according to .


----------



## Karma カルマ (Oct 25, 2009)

Box you disproved nothing and Illusory just stomped all over your arguments with scans. I would like you to provide some evidence that Itachi feared Jiraiya. Such a claim is nothing short of ridiculous.

There is not only manga canon on Itachi's side for his choice to retreat but also databook evidence. Itachi did not fear Jiraiya, such a statement is ridiculous.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2009)

I'm just confused how the Toads will,

-Concentrate on Itachi
-Defend Jiraiya
-Notice Jiraiya is zoning out
-Break him out of Genjutsu in,



			
				box said:
			
		

> only a second



When, to me at least, I see things like this

-Concentrating on Itachi (given)
-Defending Jiraiya (given)
-Notice Jiraiya is zoning out (4-7 seconds)
-Break him out of Genjutsu (1-3 seconds)

Even the minimum seems like an overwhelming advantage and it takes Itachi a fraction of that time to land Tsukiyomi, Amatarasu, the Sword of Totsuka, or to even shunshin up and stab him in the back of the head - all of which succinctly end the match, not to mention Itachi can spam Genjutsu.

*Edit*: Also, if Ma or Pa dies then that's it for Hermit Mode.


----------



## SM00TH38 (Oct 25, 2009)

rofl.... illusory and gally just raped the thread.... gj guys... and jiriays fans are forgetting the OP states no knowledge of each other


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 25, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Itachi never engaged Jiraiya.



Lucky for him he didn't.



> _"You won't get Naruto!"_ - Jiraiya
> 
> _"And why not?"_ - Itachi
> 
> ...



Look who ran off. 



> [Not according to .



It's possible he didn't like the torture, and as such, would rather have died through physical means while he was busy being tortured. It wasn't clear whether he was referring to Tsukuyomi, or through physical means.


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## Karma カルマ (Oct 25, 2009)

Lady Tsunade.

Lucky for Itachi didn't? In that small space Jiraiya had arguably no chance of dodging an amaterasu. Secondly if Itachi had used amaterasu on Jiraiya in that scenario he could have easily used a second one to escape. As manga canon states such a thing is entirely possible for him.

Kisame states, I am surprised he is still alive. Kakashi says, why didn't he just kill me. Clearly Tsukuyomi can kill. /argument.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2009)

Also, Kisame who will have major points soon, was there 

Irrelevant nonsense: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Jiraiya's lucky they didn't physically rape him in front of Naruto before burning Konoha to the ground. It's not like Kakashi wasn't already out of commission. That leaves really only Gai, who would be downed by Susano or wouldn't see Amatarasu coming while staring at Itachi's feet, to defend the town and I don't think he would whip out the gates before they pulled out an ace.




*Edit:* My mistake


----------



## Karma カルマ (Oct 25, 2009)

I don't see how that is relevant to this discussion Illusory. I am not attacking you or anything but that really doesn't have any place here.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 25, 2009)

Gally said:


> Lady Tsunade.
> 
> Lucky for Itachi didn't? In that small space Jiraiya had arguably no chance of dodging an amaterasu. Secondly if Itachi had used amaterasu on Jiraiya in that scenario he could have easily used a second one to escape. As manga canon states such a thing is entirely possible for him.



I'll concede to this point for now. 



> Kisame states, I am surprised he is still alive. Kakashi says, why didn't he just kill me. Clearly Tsukuyomi can kill. /argument.



Perhaps they meant mentally. 

Fair enough.

That applies to Base Jiraiya, though. This is HM Jiraiya vs Itachi, in an entirely different scenario.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Oct 25, 2009)

Gally said:


> Lady Tsunade.
> 
> Lucky for Itachi didn't? In that small space Jiraiya had arguably no chance of dodging an amaterasu. Secondly if Itachi had used amaterasu on Jiraiya in that scenario he could have easily used a second one to escape. As manga canon states such a thing is entirely possible for him.
> 
> Kisame states, I am surprised he is still alive. Kakashi says, why didn't he just kill me. Clearly Tsukuyomi can kill. /argument.



Jiraiya could have probably dodged it with a doton (going into the wall like in the pain fight) or jumped into naruto's shadow.


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## Karma カルマ (Oct 25, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> I'll concede to this point for now.



Glad we are on the same page.



> Perhaps they meant mentally.



Well if you die mentally your body ceases to function as I am sure you have heard of brain dead people.



> Fair enough.



Indeed.



> That applies to Base Jiraiya, though. This is HM Jiraiya vs Itachi, in an entirely different scenario.



At no point did I ever suggest otherwise although I fail to see how being in *Sage mode* strengthens your mental defenses. However you are quite right that this is an entirely different scenario.



DarkRasengan said:


> Jiraiya could have probably dodged it with a doton (going into the wall like in the pain fight) or jumped into naruto's shadow.



Can I have a link of Jiraiya displaying said doton? Or is what you are talking about his silhouette jutsu? If you are suggesting Jiraiya can predict Amaterasu and perform said jutsu within that time that is an entirely different argument. That I happen to disagree with quite strongly.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 26, 2009)

I believe HM Jiraiya wouldn't be immediately incapacitated by Tsukiyomi, the only thing that works in Itachi's favor here is Susano'o. I don't really see him winning outside of that and without, I 'd say he'd most likely lose the match. Jiraiya is a distance fighter and uses shadow clones, both of which spell disaster for his opponent. The only real thing that gives Itachi an edge is Susano'o and that's simply because Jiraiya doesn't know about it.


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## Cyphon (Oct 26, 2009)

Gally said:


> In that small space Jiraiya had arguably no chance of dodging an amaterasu.



Not that I entirely disagree but just something to discuss:

At such a close range there are a few issues. One would be his level of control. This isn't such a big question because I am pretty sure he would have had pretty good control at the time, anyway. At the distance he was at he risks hitting and taking out Kisame, or hitting Naruto or if he were to only hit Jiraiya, couldn't Jiraiya just move towards him and get the fire on anyone and everyone? 

I always figured that is why they wouldn't use it from too close a distance.



> Secondly if Itachi had used amaterasu on Jiraiya in that scenario he could have easily used a second one to escape. As manga canon states such a thing is entirely possible for him.



Well, this is part 1 we are talking about where chakra seemed a lot more "important", so he may not have been able to. Especially if we are talking about after his Tsukiyami on Sasuke. That would be 2 Tsukiyami's and 2 Amaterasu's. 

Not saying it is a sure thing, but just to keep in mind that in part 1 chakra was a lot different.


----------



## Karma カルマ (Oct 26, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Not that I entirely disagree but just something to discuss:
> 
> At such a close range there are a few issues. One would be his level of control. This isn't such a big question because I am pretty sure he would have had pretty good control at the time, anyway. At the distance he was at he risks hitting and taking out Kisame, or hitting Naruto or if he were to only hit Jiraiya, couldn't Jiraiya just move towards him and get the fire on anyone and everyone?
> 
> I always figured that is why they wouldn't use it from too close a distance.



I did say it was arguable that is the first thing.

The second thing is come on now Cyphon. You definitely don't believe that, you are just looking for an argument. To suggest Itachi would accidentally hit Kisame is far fetched, your idea of Jiraiya moving towards them to spread it has more merit. 

Lets address your idea of Itachi accidentally hitting Kisame first. The first thing is Itachi wouldn't be looking at Kisame when casting Amaterasu, he would be looking at Jiraiya. And while Amaterasu is pretty large I am pretty sure given the team work and understanding Itachi and Kisame share, Kisame getting out of Itachi's way is a simple thing. Especially since Kisame has perfect knowledge of Itachi's techniques and a simple "Kisame" would have sufficed in such a situation. 

Secondly lets address Jiraiya spreading Amaterasu. Kisame and Itachi could have easily knocked him back with one of their ninjutsu and is that really an IC notion for Jiraiya to think about spreading amaterasu to Itachi and Kisame when attempting such a thing much set Naruto on fire as well?



> Well, this is part 1 we are talking about where chakra seemed a lot more "important", so he may not have been able to. Especially if we are talking about after his Tsukiyami on Sasuke. That would be 2 Tsukiyami's and 2 Amaterasu's.



Itachi's health was better in part 1 as opposed to part 2. Thus the idea of him using more MS jutsu in part 1 as opposed to part 2 is logically more acceptable to ME. How would that be two Tsukuyomi? He used one on Sasuke, that is one Tsukuyomi unless I am mistaken. And sure the two Amaterasu, one on Jiraiya and one to escape. However that is nothing as itachi has shown in part 2. Where he used genjutsu, Karasu bunshin, high level taijutsu and kenjutsu, 1 tsukuyomi, 2 amaterasu, followed by Susano'o. If we remove everything I just listed that's still 1 Tsukuyomi and 2 Amaterasu which is what this situation required. 

Kisame could have carried Itachi out in a worse case scenario if Jiraiya had died.



> Not saying it is a sure thing, but just to keep in mind that in part 1 chakra was a lot different.



I agree, however I would say in part 1 Itachi's health and possibly his chakra were better than in part 2.


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## Cyphon (Oct 26, 2009)

Gally said:


> The second thing is come on now Cyphon. You definitely don't believe that, you are just looking for an argument. To suggest Itachi would accidentally hit Kisame is far fetched,
> 
> Lets address your idea of Itachi accidentally hitting Kisame first. The first thing is Itachi wouldn't be looking at Kisame when casting Amaterasu, he would be looking at Jiraiya. And while Amaterasu is pretty large I am pretty sure given the team work and understanding Itachi and Kisame share, Kisame getting out of Itachi's way is a simple thing. Especially since Kisame has perfect knowledge of Itachi's techniques and a simple "Kisame" would have sufficed in such a situation.



Why would I be looking for an argument? You don't think they are easy to find in a DEBATE section?

I wasn't trying to say it like I think he is dumb or anything, but I was referring to its size. There wasn't all that much room in the hallway. So its probably not something he could easily just fit in to hit Jiraiya. 

Also, I think Itachi mentioning Kisame's name and then sudden movement would have triggered an attack from Jiraiya. Not sure which one, but I am just saying.



> Secondly lets address Jiraiya spreading Amaterasu. Kisame and Itachi could have easily knocked him back with one of their ninjutsu



As close as they were I don't believe there would be room for such a thing. We haven't seen any ninjutsu small enough to not risk each other IMO. I would have to take a look at the setting again.



> and is that really an IC notion for Jiraiya to think about spreading amaterasu to Itachi and Kisame when attempting such a thing much set Naruto on fire as well?



Well he knows where each person was and he can't actually spread it so much as just move at them to have it ignite them as well.



> Itachi's health was better in part 1 as opposed to part 2. Thus the idea of him using more MS jutsu in part 1 as opposed to part 2 is logically more acceptable to ME.



There is no doubt it is logical, but it probably doesn't fit. I mean Kakashi is pt 1 could use 4 Raikiri's and any extended use of Sharingan taxed him greatly. In pt 2 his stamina stat didn't rise but his Raikiri total jumped to 6 WITH Sharingan activated while he also used a Suiton with no source and he claimed he had an MS shot as well.

So logic doesn't quite fit.

Anyway, to go more to the source. Itachi in part 1 claimed he needed a rest after 2 Tsukiyami's and 1 Amaterasu. In pt 2 as you list below he used much more while he also was ill. So I just don't see it.



> How would that be two Tsukuyomi? He used one on Sasuke, that is one Tsukuyomi unless I am mistaken.



IIRC his fight with Kakashi was earlier that same day, so the one on Kakashi would be the other.



> However that is nothing as itachi has shown in part 2.



Again, pt 1 and pt 2 just ain't the same. 



> Kisame could have carried Itachi out in a worse case scenario if Jiraiya had died.



Sure, but would Itachi live if we assume it was super taxing on his chakra? When Kakashi used up his chakra not even immediate healing from Katsuya could keep him alive, he pretty much died immediately.



> I agree, however I would say in part 1 Itachi's health and possibly his chakra were better than in part 2.



I have to disagree. I don't think his health had anything to do with his overall chakra. It probably had a little effect on his physical stamina, but as we saw, it didn't seem to even effect him until he really started blasting away MS techs. If we look to Sasuke vs Raikage pretty much the same thing happened when he did it.


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## Karma カルマ (Oct 26, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Why would I be looking for an argument? You don't think they are easy to find in a DEBATE section?



 don't even try that with me. You KNOW what you do. 



> I wasn't trying to say it like I think he is dumb or anything, but I was referring to its size. There wasn't all that much room in the hallway. So its probably not something he could easily just fit in to hit Jiraiya.



The size of Amaterasu is *arguably* controlled.

This one was massive to smother the katon.


This one was smaller to chase Sasuke


With that being said, given Kisame and Itachi's understanding of each other as well as Itachi's control of Amaterasu I would argue that it is more than feasible to think he could pull off what i am suggesting. I am not saying the reality that he might burn Kisame doesn't exist. I am just saying it is more likely he wouldn't IMO.



> Also, I think Itachi mentioning Kisame's name and then sudden movement would have triggered an attack from Jiraiya. Not sure which one, but I am just saying.



Itachi and Kisame were talking in Jiraiya's presence the entire time. I am sure between the two of them working out something would have been feasible. Also Jiraiya attacking could have possibly resulted in either Naruto or Sasuke's injury which is what he seemed to be avoiding. Jiraiya suddenly springing forward could have also resulted in Suiton lake to the face.



> As close as they were I don't believe there would be room for such a thing. We haven't seen any ninjutsu small enough to not risk each other IMO. I would have to take a look at the setting again.



Well Kisame could have released a suiton from his mouth and knocked Jiraiya back. Itachi could have intercepted with an exploding bunshin. There are a few things I could think of that either could have done to prevent such at thing.



> Well he knows where each person was and he can't actually spread it so much as just move at them to have it ignite them as well.



Discussed above.



> There is no doubt it is logical, but it probably doesn't fit. I mean Kakashi is pt 1 could use 4 Raikiri's and any extended use of Sharingan taxed him greatly. In pt 2 his stamina stat didn't rise but his Raikiri total jumped to 6 WITH Sharingan activated while he also used a Suiton with no source and he claimed he had an MS shot as well.



Here is where the key difference lies. Kakashi's body is not deteriorating at a rapid rate. Where as the same way a healthy athlete can train to compete at a higher level for longer. A sickly and deteriorating athlete will get worse over time as opposed to better. 



> So logic doesn't quite fit.



Addressed above.



> Anyway, to go more to the source. Itachi in part 1 claimed he needed a rest after 2 Tsukiyami's and 1 Amaterasu. In pt 2 as you list below he used much more while he also was ill. So I just don't see it.



In part 2 he died from doing everything I just listed. This has been partially discussed above. I assume you are counting the second Tsukuyomi from the one used against Kakashi. Which is understandable seeing as they happened within a short space of each other. We could simply trade off all the other things I listed including the Susano'o to fuel that extra Amaterasu the situation would require. 



> IIRC his fight with Kakashi was earlier that same day, so the one on Kakashi would be the other.



That is correct I just agreed above.



> Again, pt 1 and pt 2 just ain't the same.



Addressed above.



> Sure, but would Itachi live if we assume it was super taxing on his chakra? When Kakashi used up his chakra not even immediate healing from Katsuya could keep him alive, he pretty much died immediately.



I believe I have addressed this above. There is no reason genjutsu, katons, high level taijutsu and kenjutsu, Karasu bunshin and Susano'o chakra expenditure couldn't make up for the extra Amaterasu chakra needed in this situation.



> I have to disagree. I don't think his health had anything to do with his overall chakra. It probably had a little effect on his physical stamina, but as we saw, it didn't seem to even effect him until he really started blasting away MS techs. If we look to Sasuke vs Raikage pretty much the same thing happened when he did it.



I have to disagree as well. Chakra is kneaded from every cell of the body IIRC. If Itachi was sick and dying it means a large amount of cells in his body are unhealthy and don't function normally. If he continues to get worse over time that to me would take a toll on his chakra capacity as well as his stamina.


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## Hasukii (Oct 26, 2009)

This scenario when Itachi supposedly "escaped" from Jiraiya isn't even relevant to this thread, as Itachi's comments weren't even directed at him. Itachi was referring to *Naruto* as the *Kyuubi Jinchuuriki*, not Jiraiya.

This is a literal translation by Gottheim where he elaborates a bit further. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ分かりませんよ?
As far as you're concerned, "..." should more or less be doable as an opponent, but I don't know how I'd fare.

次元が違う
We're not in the same league.

ああ?やり合えば二人共殺されるか良くて相打ちというところ
Yeah... If we face "..." we might both get killed, or pull off a mutual strike down if we do well.

?たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう
...Even if we came in greater numbers, it might not make much of a change.

ラーメン屋でやっと見付けたはいいが?お守りがあの?伝説の三忍?とは
We thought we'd finally found "..." at the ramen shop, but... "..."'s caretaker just had to be one of the Legendary Sannin.

彼が相手では?木ノ葉のうちは一族?も?霧の忍刀七人衆?の名もかすんでしまう
Before an opponent like *him* (Jiraiya), even Konoha's Uchiha clan and Kiri's Seven Shinobi Swordsmen's names will pale.

Replace every instance of "..." with "him", "he" or "his", and you get your dialogue. Until the fourth line, it looks quite obvious they're talking about Jiraiya. But Kisame goes on about how they found "him" at the ramen shop", and how "his" caretaker is one of the Sannin. Jiraiya can't be his own caretaker! The way I see it, it's then, and only then, that the conversation does switch to Jiraiya. So basically, the dialogue could be summed up as "Kyuubi will probably kill us both, but nevermind that, cause Jiraiya would squash us like bugs long before it could happen". So Itachi comes up with a plan to get Ero-Sennin out of the picture.

Clearly, they feared him more than they feared Naruto. That much doesn't change at all. They just thought that as Kyuubi's jinchuuriki, Naruto might not be as easy as he looked. Kisame was still confident Itachi would be able to deal with him (which would easily explain his later carelessness around the boy), in clear disagreement with Itachi himself.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 26, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Ah, yet more evidence of Pain not being a genius.



Or he fell into a trap he couldnot detect, why are you in such denial.



> , it looks a lot like that barrier jutsu requires the frog to transform into a bigass frog similar to  .



One is a ninjutsu and a summoning the other is a barrier that is not detectable. The frog came during the barrier was formed. If Jiriaya can summon a frog stomach out of nowhere. Then what so hard to think that he reverses summons a person in a barrier into the stomach of a gourd toad. Or the gourd toad sucked every one in. The comparison was terrible they are completely different jutsu.



> And as I'm confident you'll misonconstrue what I'm saying, I'll spell it out. Unless you believe Pain somehow got tricked into jumping into the mouth of a frog (which is retarded on Pain's part), I would suggest Pain probably went into the open mouth of a large frog that proceeded to shrink to the size of the frog we saw Jiraiya climb out of.




Do you have any proof, of this!

 Jiraiya stated that the Pain stepped inside the barrier and thus was transported into the stomach along with Jiraiya his arm was chopped off and Pain thought he was helpless and attacked him. 

This is excatly the thing that will happen to Itachi. He will definately lower down his guard mocking Jiraiya while Jiraiya is partially paralyzed. Hence will come close to the kill. Hence BAM! that is when Jiraiya activates his barrier justu. Thus itachi does.




> Except the only reason we even believe Rinnegan can do this is because Deva saw chakra concentrated in Tsunade and her ANBU's feet.
> 
> 
> Besides the fact Deva's the only one who exhibit any powers beyond the basic ones Nagato gives each body, and the fact these powers are related to detection (the rain and his ability to ).




WTF are you talking about.



Animal realm while INSIDE the chamelion saw the barrier.
Through the eyes of the chamelion. They all share the same eyes. 

Terrible argument vergil I expected better, 


I mean you are saying just because Itachi's sharingan can see chakra. Another random uchiha with the sharingan can't see chakra.



> Oh, and because Sharingan and Byakugan can do it. Even though such comparisons are fairly worthless because Sharingan requires the ability to see chakra for it's copying ability and Byakugan's built purely around the idea of seeing through shit. Rinnegan on the other hand just means you can train yourself to do basically anything. There's no real evidence the Pain bodies can see chakra other than Deva Realm.




By far the worst arument. Nothing stated that you don't get to see chakra. Deva saw the barrier and chakra with his *Rinengan* not his own power. Animal realm did a kawarimi are you saying that only Animal realm will be able to use kawarimi. This logic is completely Idiotic. IF ANY THING THE RINNENGAN CAN SEE AND DECIPHER MORE THAN THE SHARINGAN OR THE MS COULD, BY MADARA's statement. 



> Honestly
> 
> . He can take this much punishment and stay conscious only a little longer. Itachi can make him suffer that a thousandfold in Tsukuyomi, plus any fun emotional torture he might wanna cook up. Jiraiya's state of consciousness after he's hit by Tsukuyomi is decided by Itachi.




Did Kakashi stay conscious, after taking a full blast.yes!
He only fainted after they left, he was standing on pure will power. Jiraiya WILLED HIMSELF BACK TO LIFE! AFTER HIS HEART STOPPED BEATING! HIS ARM WAS CHOPPED OFF, GETTING STABBED 6 TIMES IN 6 VITAL ORGANS AND HAVING HIS THROAT CAVED IN. AND THEN HAD ENOUGH SENSES TO ACTUALLY WRITE AN ENCODED MESSAGE THAT INVOLVES KNOWING THE FIRST LETTERS OF VERY SPECIFIC CHAPTERS IN HIS BOOK. AND THEN WROTE IT DOWN USING A JUTSU THAT REQUIRES VERY DELICATE CHAKRA CONTROL.





> When did Jiraiya use Ninjutsu without handseals? Oh wait, Rasengan. Yeah, that'll help when his senses are Itachi's bitch.



Summoning jutsu
Senpou Goemon
Chou Oodama Rasengan
Senpou Kebari Senbon
Katon: Daiendan

Katon: Endan
Gamayudan
Gama Daira Kage Ayatsuri No Jutsu



> Mind you, Ni Dai Sennin will bust him out of Genjutsu (except Tsukuyomi) quickly. But then again, him being temporarily open could be tremendously helpful for Itachi.




And the sannins can't attack Itachi.




> Wow, look at all that proof you just provided. The only reason we don't think it's as powerful as Sharingan Genjutsu is because we have a better idea of how powerful that stuff is (hint: fucking strong) and we only saw Utakata once.




And why did he not use it against Kakashi, or Orochimaru or Dedera.

Why only to a guy with terrible chakra control. Who almost broke out of it.
Heck the genjutsu dosen't even have a name.




> Well no, not unless he closes his eyes and trusts his luck with that barrier jutsu. Which is a pretty retarded idea, considering he even points out that . As there's no proof the barrier jutsu in question detects your every movement, down to things like finger movements, it's not going to help Jiraiya too much.




A barrier that detects EVEN THE SLIGHTEST MOVEMENT.



> Especially not when Jiraiya's got two people in contact with him at all times to break him out. Really, there's no need for the sensing barrier technique he has when there's two partners to break him out of Itachi's basic Genjutsu.



Then why are we arguing about Itachi's basic genjutsu



> He can if he's in contact with them. And realises they're under a Genjutsu.



Sakura did to Naruto, Jiraiya knew Itachi used genjutsu on the woman.



> He tends not to as otherwise he'd have no excuse when he doesn't kill them. It's part of his whole "I'm evil, totally evil" lie.



Still didn't stop him from killing Kakashi when he was down. He hasn't moved while using those genjutsu. 




> Jiraiya can't fight effectively with his eyes closed, Itachi can see if a KB's been created and act accordingly (namely test the water with a Genjutsu first as that shows Itachi if he hits a KB or not before using Tsukuyomi on the real one and hit both Jiraiya's with Amaterasu). Or counter the KB with one of his Karasu ones.



Jiraiya can spam more KB's than Itachi can. He can make one grab Itachi's shadow and bye bye Itachi.



> No he can't. The only reason we think he's speed Tier 5 in HM is because it gives you a considerable speed boost. That means he's going to be at the same level of speed Itachi's at when he goes HM. Even without the Sharingan Itachi can keep up with Jiraiya. With it he can not only keep up but kill him in Taijutsu by stabbing him with kunai.



And Jiraiya can't block with Hari Jizo or use Senpou Kebari Senbon.

If not block Itachi's kunai attack. Heck hit him with shroud punch.



> I can't really argue in favour of this as I'm of the belief he activated Susanoo a moment before the lightning struck.



Just like how Kakashi, who has a speed tier of 4 chopped off an offpanel lightning. with raikiri.



> Gaara can block Kagatsuchi, the flames of which do not simply ignite on you but are controlled after they're ignited.



No amaterasu doesnot ingnite on you! It is ignites on you while in a 5m radius. After that it has to travel. Jiraiya can easily block amaterasu line of sight by adding something that obstructs Itachi's LOS.



> So he gets Tsukuyomi'd. Wonderful.
> 
> And spontaneously knows what indicates Amaterasu is coming and magically knows how Amaterasu ignites on your ass. Despite...
> 
> Despite Itachi appearing completely unaffected until after he offed Oro.




So itachi uses Tsukyomi and then Instantly uses amaterasu while sinking in a swamp. Instantly



> Sasuke has more control through Kagatsuchi. If anything, his is less powerful as it hasn't got the feats Itachi's has.



Nothing states this. Amaterasu = Amaterasu. Sasuke has more control of it and his upgrade makes is more powerfull by common sense.




> Except he'll notice his Genjtusu's been broken if he didn't already cut off Jiraiya's arm/got repelled by Ni Dai Sennin and evade the kick with ease thanks to his massively superior reflexes.




Again the Sennin's themselves are not slow, they can keep on two with SM Naruto. A futon blows Itachi off balance and Pa uses his tongue to chop Itachi off Horizontally or Vertically Then Ma uses his tongue to attack Itachi in mid air.



> Considering Yomi Numa's lethality is questionable (it's about as lethal as Amaterasu is hot as the sun, according to the DB), despite it being a weak argument his still retains more legitimacy than yours.



Actually Yomi Numa has yet to fail. Where as Amaterasu has constanty failed.

The last time it was use the jutsu was hyped to beyond believe. It was used on a ceiling and went against gravity.  And sill worked flawlessly. Despite going against all logic. An upsidedown swamp


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 26, 2009)

> Not saying much either way though.
> 
> Yomi Numa's Jiraiya's only hope, and a very questionable one at that.



One hit will Kill Itachi is his is standing on the ground. Which is very likely. 



> Except Jiraiya hasn't got anything comperable to Kirin in terms of power.



Cho Odama Rasengan, deep fryer, Yomi Numa, Gama yuendan. Heck HM Kick of Pa's tongue. Raikage's broke though premature Susanoo. Jiraiya fleats in HM is much greater than Raikage.



> He isn't breaking Susanoo at all. He can expect to bounce off Yata's Mirror and be skewered in mid air. Or just incinerated with Amaterasu.



Bunta, Ken can fight Susanoo. Ken has a handy dandy shield that can block Itachi's sword.



> Considering the barrier is a frog and probably a large one when Jiraiya lures victims into it (see the top of this post), I'm betting it probably can.



The barrier isn't a frog, it is an invisible field that drags the target into an inscapable barrier space. Show me proof that itachi will not share the same fate as Pain.

Do you see a toad being summoned. The jutsu was instant. refute this first. Or a *best *case Senairo this battle is a draw.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2009)

Hey, Darius, I don't even have to argue with you. Know why? 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Because I got Suu's approval. If you want to know what you interpreted incorrectly, then read our discussion. You'll find links there as well. Also, since I didn't cover it, jutsu rank has nothing to do with its effectiveness at killing enemy shinobi, but is how difficult it is to learn. Hence why Minato could use a D-ranked shunshin to such a level that he could he could beat people who use nothing but S-rank techniques.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 26, 2009)

Exactly fleats is what counts. Yomi Numa has never failed. While I lost the number of time Amaterasu has failed.


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## Cyphon (Oct 26, 2009)

Gally said:


> I am not saying the reality that he might burn Kisame doesn't exist. I am just saying it is more likely he wouldn't IMO.



Agreed here. As I said, nobody is going to call Itachi clumsy or anything, so I don't doubt the likelihood is smaller that he wouldn't then he would. More or less just noting the disadvantage of the situation.



> Itachi and Kisame were talking in Jiraiya's presence the entire time. I am sure between the two of them working out something would have been feasible.



I dunno. Looking back I don't get a very good teamwork feel from them. That's not to say that it doesn't exist, but they seemed quite independent. One major example would be Itachi not even being with Kisame to fight the 4 tails.



> Also Jiraiya attacking could have possibly resulted in either Naruto or Sasuke's injury which is what he seemed to be avoiding. Jiraiya suddenly springing forward could have also resulted in Suiton lake to the face.



1. I am thinking if he were hit with it he may still have went with Frog Stomach, not too sure though. He may even have called out the Barrier Frog he caught Pain in and tried to get them with that.....who knows. 

2. As for the Suiton, I still don't see enough space unless Kisame getting out of the way meant traveling a good distance down the hallway. Otherwise he is too close and I can't see him having time. Samehada would probably be his best bet but then maybe that would eat Amaterasu's chakra 



> Itachi could have intercepted with an exploding bunshin.



No way. Not saying Itachi isn't capable of getting one out, but the explosion is pretty big and can damage a good bit, probably even collapsing the floor they were on.



> Here is where the key difference lies. Kakashi's body is not deteriorating at a rapid rate. Where as the same way a healthy athlete can train to compete at a higher level for longer. A sickly and deteriorating athlete will get worse over time as opposed to better.



Not really the point I am trying to portray. Its more just pt 1 was completely different, so even if you consider a pt 2 disease it probably doesn't make a difference because they seemed to be given more chakra in pt 2 anyway.

1 major whole I can think of is Sasuke vs Deidara. He goes from saying he is pretty much out of chakra to bringing out a boss summon and using genjutsu. 

In pt 1 it required Naruto to unleash his Kyuubi chakra to summon Bunta ie.....a lot of chakra.

So again, its not that I would say you are wrong, just that I see it differently based off of the differences in pt 1 in pt 2.



> We could simply trade off all the other things I listed including the Susano'o to fuel that extra Amaterasu the situation would require.



Maybe, but wouldn't that mean death? Complete chakra exhaustion. 

Another thing to consider, though I never brought it up before. Do you think there are ways to control Amaterasu's chakra output.

What I mean is, we have seen Itachi and Kakashi have to close their eyes and prep and other times they simply can activate and use. So do you think the more concentrated or powerful they have to make the more chakra it takes?

Like for Itachi we saw him do it to beat the Stomach and then to beat Sasuke's Katon, both things you would consider hard to beat with fire. Whereas with Sasuke his didn't harm the Samurai at all and when he used it on Hachibi it had no major effect minus spreading.

Not saying this is the case, just a question to ponder. If you he used 1 on Jiraiya and then needed a "bigger" one to beat the stomach quickly, maybe we have to consider more chakra output.



> I believe I have addressed this above. There is no reason genjutsu, katons, high level taijutsu and kenjutsu, Karasu bunshin and Susano'o chakra expenditure couldn't make up for the extra Amaterasu chakra needed in this situation.



Pretty much covered above. Also, the only one I even consider nearly equal is Susanoo. Those other techniques have never even been mentioned when it comes to chakra. We know KB saves him a lot of chakra, genjutsu has never been a chakra thing except for Frog Song and I am not even sure they mentioned chakra with that. 

Katon is probably the highest, but as it is probably his natural element and he has had it for years it wont take much either. Kenjutsu we have no reading on, but it never seemed to be much either for anyone else we saw use it. Even Sarutobi used that Death God with 2 KB's and he died because it kills you, not because of chakra.



> I have to disagree as well. Chakra is kneaded from every cell of the body IIRC. If Itachi was sick and dying it means a large amount of cells in his body are unhealthy and don't function normally. If he continues to get worse over time that to me would take a toll on his chakra capacity as well as his stamina.



Like I said, if we are talking IRL that would make sense, but the fact is, we aren't. Part 2 seemed to give a lot more chakra to everyone AND there seemed to be no effect on Itachi in the least bit until he started spamming Amaterasu and such. 

I don't want to get into a big thing about this simply because there is no way I can see to actually prove 1 side right, but in the pt 1 situation I would say Itachi couldn't use as much as he did in his final fight. 

That said, I don't believe any of that fight is all too relevant to the match we are discussing anyway. Who brought this up?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Exactly fleats is what counts. Yomi Numa has never failed...



... to not kill somebody


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 26, 2009)

But the first time I was used on a Snake which seems deep enough to sink a human. And even then it was glimped. While Amaterasu even when not glimped out has failed countless times.


The second time it did what it was meant to immobilize the target. Not Kill it. Jiraiya was intended to registering the finisheing blow.


Yet, we forget this move completely dified the laws of physics and went against gravity.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2009)

Response is in the other thread. I'll give you a hint though: you're wrong 



Illusory said:


> Orochimaru (2), Deidara, Kakashi, Naruto, Killerbee, Gaara, and the Raikage have all been extraordinarily effected by the Mangyekou or regular Sharingan. When Itachi has used them it meant instant incapacitation on opponents on, near, or above Sanin level. You have *temporarily trapping* a nameless Snake and Human Realm. Which is sad, particularly because you're saying it would *kill* a much, much, much, much higher leveled opponent. I didn't even mention Shi, but he almost ties Human Realm in terms of feats and was OHKO'd instantly by general Genjutsu rather than temporarily trapped.
> 
> 
> 
> And it might temporarily immobilize Itachi, I've never argued it wouldn't. But that won't stop him fightning and doesn't disadvantage him much as he has Susano protecting him. But like I said in my 27 reasons, this is a poorly substantiated assumption that you're forced to make to feed your delusion. And I'm fine with that. It would be far more logical to argue that Itachi cuts off Jiraiya's hands and lulz because at least he did that to someone on [above] Jiraiya's level.


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## Vergil642 (Oct 26, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Or he fell into a trap he couldnot detect, why are you in such denial.



Or he thought he could run through it and didn't mind the idea he might lose a body.

Both are perfectly acceptable explanations for how this went down.



> One is a ninjutsu and a summoning the other is a barrier that is not detectable. The frog came during the barrier was formed. If Jiriaya can summon a frog stomach out of nowhere. Then what so hard to think that he reverses summons a person in a barrier into the stomach of a gourd toad. Or the gourd toad sucked every one in. The comparison was terrible they are completely different jutsu.



I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. You have no idea what the barrier is or what it looks like. I'm proposing to enter it you must first enter a frog's mouth (which is possible as we've seen that Jiraiya's frogs can change size, meaning you might run into a mouth and the frog could then shrink down to the size of the one we saw Jiraiya crawl out of _after_ Animal Realm died inside the barrier), after which you can be attacked in an isolated environment favourable to Jiraiya.

And it's kinda hard to think Jiraiya reverse summoned anyone into a barrier or the gourd toad sucked them in because we've never seen him or the toad do this.



> Do you have any proof, of this!
> 
> Jiraiya stated that the Pain stepped inside the barrier and thus was transported into the stomach along with Jiraiya his arm was chopped off and Pain thought he was helpless and attacked him.
> 
> This is excatly the thing that will happen to Itachi. He will definately lower down his guard mocking Jiraiya while Jiraiya is partially paralyzed. Hence will come close to the kill. Hence BAM! that is when Jiraiya activates his barrier justu. Thus itachi does.



Yeah, meaning Animal Realm might have realised he was entering a trap and Nagato believed he could handle it as Jiraiya lacked an arm at the time.

And no it isn't. Itachi isn't able to let himself get killed like Nagato can allow his Pain Realms to die. He's also much smarter and far more cautious than Pain, again meaning he won't necessarily just run into a potentially obvious trap.



> WTF are you talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You clearly didn't understand my argument. Fair point on Animal Realm though. It proves Nagato can probably see through the animals unless there's another explanation. For example, it may be that you can feel the barrier when inside it. That's a poor example, but nevertheless an alternate theory. Of course, Animal Realm hearing the jutsu's name and having an insight into his old Sensei's jutsu could also explain why he knew what the jutsu was.

And what are you talking about when referring to the Sharingan? I only ever spoke of the Sharingan in general, I never said that one Sharingan can see chakra but another can't. Is it that difficult to understand a complex argument?



> By far the worst arument. Nothing stated that you don't get to see chakra. Deva saw the barrier and chakra with his *Rinengan* not his own power. Animal realm did a kawarimi are you saying that only Animal realm will be able to use kawarimi. This logic is completely Idiotic. IF ANY THING THE RINNENGAN CAN SEE AND DECIPHER MORE THAN THE SHARINGAN OR THE MS COULD, BY MADARA's statement.



I would guess the basic jutsu can be used by each body. And the individual Pain bodies don't each have the real Rinnegan. If they did, why didn't Nagato use Shinra Tensei with every body? If they had the real Rinnegan each body would be capable of using any jutsu he had as he controlled them.



> Did Kakashi stay conscious, after taking a full blast.yes!
> He only fainted after they left, he was standing on pure will power. Jiraiya WILLED HIMSELF BACK TO LIFE! AFTER HIS HEART STOPPED BEATING! HIS ARM WAS CHOPPED OFF, GETTING STABBED 6 TIMES IN 6 VITAL ORGANS AND HAVING HIS THROAT CAVED IN. AND THEN HAD ENOUGH SENSES TO ACTUALLY WRITE AN ENCODED MESSAGE THAT INVOLVES KNOWING THE FIRST LETTERS OF VERY SPECIFIC CHAPTERS IN HIS BOOK. AND THEN WROTE IT DOWN USING A JUTSU THAT REQUIRES VERY DELICATE CHAKRA CONTROL.



Aw, you're getting agitated 

Ok, thanks for listing what it takes to kill Jiraiya off. Itachi does that in Tsukuyomi to him for 72 hours straight. Logic dictates that would be enough to mentally destroy Jiraiya a hundred times over or more as just once is enough to kill him.

And Kakashi even wondered why Itachi didn't just kill him with Tsukuyomi, indicating he was alive due to Itachi's good nature. The fact we know now Itachi was a good guy explains why he would leave Kakashi alive, tying up all the loose ends there.

This being a battledome thread though, Itachi won't leave Jiraiya alive by choice.



> Summoning jutsu
> Senpou Goemon
> Chou Oodama Rasengan
> Senpou Kebari Senbon
> ...



Every single one of these jutsu (excluding the Rasengan) logically require handseals. Kishi not bothering to draw them doesn't mean they don't require them.

Kuchiyose no Jutsu for one thing does and we've seen Jiraiya has to use them for it too.



> And the sannins can't attack Itachi.



Oro and Tsunade aren't in this battle, you'll want the other thread for that 

And what'll they do? Try and kill him with their tongues? Itachi sidesteps as he doesn't think he's invisible like the chameleon and is faster than it anyway. Whatever they do he'll just dodge.



> And why did he not use it against Kakashi, or Orochimaru or Dedera.
> 
> Why only to a guy with terrible chakra control. Who almost broke out of it.
> Heck the genjutsu dosen't even have a name.



Because showing off how easily he can dispatch three Jounin with his Genjutsu would make it rather difficult to explain to Kisame why they shouldn't kill them and even more tough to explain why they failed to grab the Kyuubi later on. Why bother using it against Oro and Deidara when they're already making eye contact with him? He also may not have developed it at that point.

Why only use it against Naruto? Because Naruto wasn't looking at his eyes. Simple really.



> A barrier that detects EVEN THE SLIGHTEST MOVEMENT.



It says it detects movement.



> Databook 3 - Kekkai: Tenga Houjin:
> Barrier: Canopy Method Formation* (結界・天蓋法陣, Kekkai: Tengai Houjin)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary, Short to mid-range (0-10m)
> User: Jiraiya
> ...



Note it says user is able to detect anyone who moves inside the barrier space. Detecting something moving=/=detecting extremely fine movements to the point of being able to fight blind.

Then why are we arguing about Itachi's basic genjutsu[/quote]

It's mostly a matter of principle I believe. You seem to believe Jiraiya's automatically immune to Genjutsu, I'm arguing against this, as it could be useful for creating temporary openings as he isn't immune to Genjutsu.



> Sakura did to Naruto, Jiraiya knew Itachi used genjutsu on the woman.
> 
> I'm agreeing with you here. I'm just pointing out the circumstances. They're very high probability though as he's only ever stayed on top of a summon when pulling one out.
> 
> ...


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## Vergil642 (Oct 26, 2009)

> Jiraiya can spam more KB's than Itachi can. He can make one grab Itachi's shadow and bye bye Itachi.



Yeah, because Itachi will totally not see Jiraiya?s KB coming and even if caught won?t simply incinerate Jiraiya with a look. Or mindfuck him to death with eye contact, or turn invincible at will.

Good tactic though. Let?s hope Jiraiya survives long enough to use it.



> And Jiraiya can't block with Hari Jizo or use Senpou Kebari Senbon.
> 
> If not block Itachi's kunai attack. Heck hit him with shroud punch.



One jutsu requires Jiraiya to use handseals and therefore will take too long to use, the other requires him to have a direct line between his hair and his opponent. Unless Itachi?s attacking from behind, this ain?t happening. He also is unlikely to be able to block Itachi?s kunai attack for the simple reason Itachi will aim around the block he does before he finishes making it. Remove Sharingan and Itachi will be hard pressed to cause a fatal blow as he?s equally skilled as Jiraiya. He?d still probably cut his arm or something as Jiraiya blocks it though. However, throw in the Sharingan and Itachi?s going to simply stab Jiraiya around his block or defence.



> Just like how Kakashi, who has a speed tier of 4 chopped off an offpanel lightning. with raikiri.



Um?no, this isn?t comparable. Itachi activated Susanoo in the moment before the lightning hit him. Probably the moment before the lightning was fired off. Kakashi supposedly cut lightning, which is a bullshit feat as nobody in Naruto has a reliable lightning reflex feat. It?s either hyperbole or he cut a Raiton, which is the closest thing you?ll get.



> No amaterasu doesnot ingnite on you! It is ignites on you while in a 5m radius. After that it has to travel. Jiraiya can easily block amaterasu line of sight by adding something that obstructs Itachi's LOS.



It ignites on what the user focuses their eyes. This is what it always has done.

As you?re foolish enough to ignore manga fact, I?ll just go the whole hog here and cut you off before you do so.



. 

 Unless you?re going to try and argue Sasuke can escape Itachi?s sight, this is probably due to Itachi not aiming it at Sasuke. The idea Sasuke can escape Itachi?s sight is absurd for a few reasons. Sasuke with CS2 active is probably Tier 5 in speed. Therefore, with his basic Tier 5 reactions Itachi should be capable of keeping up. With the massive enhancement the Sharingan gives, coupled with the fact he can see Sasuke?s movements before he makes them, Itachi definitely could see Sasuke move.

  How Hachibi put his tentacle in front of his face before Sasuke?s Amaterasu ignited (and how he seemingly knew what was going to happen) is up in the air. Perhaps he knows how Amaterasu is fired and recognised the bleeding eye thing. Perhaps he just got lucky. Hopefully we?ll discover the truth in later chapters.

.  In case you?re wondering in nerd rage at how we know Raikage aimdodged it, the fact he appeared behind Sasuke kinda indicates this.

And, to finish it all off, the DB range is based on the fact it was originally only used on an object 5m away from Itachi. As we?ve seen above, it always ignites on the target regardless of range.



> So itachi uses Tsukyomi and then Instantly uses amaterasu while sinking in a swamp. Instantly



No. One Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu would be enough, he needn?t use both. And it?d take two seconds to do this. Slightly longer than an instant.



> Nothing states this. Amaterasu = Amaterasu. Sasuke has more control of it and his upgrade makes is more powerfull by common sense.



Power=/=skill. That?s all there is to it.



> Again the Sennin's themselves are not slow, they can keep on two with SM Naruto. A futon blows Itachi off balance and Pa uses his tongue to chop Itachi off Horizontally or Vertically Then Ma uses his tongue to attack Itachi in mid air.



So they can react to SM naruto. That?s groovy. So can plenty of characters, including Itachi sans Sharingan. They try and use a Fuuton, Itachi uses a Katon and the Fuuton gets eaten by it and enhances it as Jiraiya evades it. Or it?s evaded easily. Same goes for the tongue jutsu. If Itachi is at any time unable to dodge for whatever reason he?s always got Susanoo to humiliate any attack Jiraiya or the frogs have. 



> Actually Yomi Numa has yet to fail. Where as Amaterasu has constanty failed.
> 
> The last time it was use the jutsu was hyped to beyond believe. It was used on a ceiling and went against gravity.  And sill worked flawlessly. Despite going against all logic. An upsidedown swamp



Pity it?s only been used on fodder snakes and a fodder Pain body. Amaterasu?s failed mainly because it?s been used against main characters. The success of a jutsu in the manga doesn?t really reflect its power or usefulness, especially when defences against it require very specific circumstances to be in play.

Upside down swamp is nice, but we?re comparing it to someone who can incinerate you by looking at you by igniting ungodly flames on you, who can trap your mind in a world where he?s omnipotent via eye contact and who can turn effectively invincible at will.

Hell, we have other characters who can be cut in half but have the halves drag themselves together again, characters who can control corpses at will and see through their eyes and other funky shit. Trying to hype a jutsu means nothing.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 23, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Fodder Sanin. Precisely.



Actually, Orochimaru is far from fodder, but he just doesn't have what it takes to stack up to the latest top tier. He is far from weak, but just as far from the highest level of power shown within the manga by SM Naruto, Pain, Sasuke and A.


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## ? (Dec 23, 2009)

itachi wins without much difficulties. an IC jiraiya without knowledge looks into itachi's eyes just like in the manga. itachi going for the kill tsukuyomi's jiraiya killing him.

give knowledge and this match may last a little longer, but without it jiraya goes down to genjutsu.


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## Agony (Dec 23, 2009)

Inu said:


> itachi wins without much difficulties. an IC jiraiya without knowledge looks into itachi's eyes just like in the manga. itachi going for the kill tsukuyomi's jiraiya killing him.
> 
> give knowledge and this match may last a little longer, but without it jiraya goes down to genjutsu.



from all the post u wrote.finally,one tat i agree.u made my day.reps+ for u man.


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## sanji's left eye (Dec 23, 2009)

they have no knowledge of each other? thats surprising. at least manga knowledge should be allowed so itachi knows of frogs and jiriaya knows of amaterasu and sharingan genjutsu.

well anyway with natural chakra constantly being fed sharingan genjutsu should be interrupted passively. and with that he will learn of sharingan genjutsu. he dodges any of itachis jutsu or simply overwhelms them with his own. close range combat is suicide since jiraiya has even greater speed now and ma and pa+ crazy powerful ninjutsu. basically itachi is needing MS right off the bat. amaterasu can potentially be avoided long enough for pa to use like a super smoke bomb or use a KB/toad sillohuette to defend against it. susano may be defeated by swam pof the underworld after some trial and error. although this is assuming itachi lives that long. jiraiya wins with moderate diffiuclty at best


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 23, 2009)

I kinda dont understand one thing. In every topic like this people mention Yomi Numa as a factor a lot. I think most of the people missunderstood this technique. I mean, when one says, Jiraiya can defeat someone using this jutsu... No he cant, it?s as simple as that. 

Walking on water really is an absolutely basic thing in narutoverse, everybody can do that. And there?s no difference, so nobody will sink if Jiraiya would use this. Do you remember that syrup-like jutsu Izumo used? Kotetsu showed us Jiraiya?s tech is not working on shinobi.

That justu should be used against animals (summons) only. That?s the only purpose of the technique. And that?s exactly how Jiraiya used it. So dont say/think he can just instant sink anybody.


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## Indestructible (Dec 23, 2009)

> Jiraiya stated that the Pain stepped inside the barrier and thus was transported into the stomach along with Jiraiya his arm was chopped off and Pain thought he was helpless and attacked him.
> 
> This is excatly the thing that will happen to Itachi. He will definately lower down his guard mocking Jiraiya while Jiraiya is partially paralyzed. Hence will come close to the kill. Hence BAM! that is when Jiraiya activates his barrier justu. Thus itachi does.



This is just stupid, it was impossible to understand anything that happened reading the manga, you just came up with all of that to favor Jiraiya. In the anime that's not what happened AT ALL, Jiraiya bound animal realm by the legs with what looked like frog tongues and sunk him *afterwards*. animal realm didn't even move a muscle. There was a small taijutsu/ninjutsu battle after that in Jiraiya's territory : Jiraiya rasengans Animal who uses his last strength to stab Jiraiya's shoulder with a chakra rod. 

Anyway... as for the fight, Itachi's real strength would most likely mean he'd win simply with perfect timing on his feints and genjutsu without even needing ms. However we haven't seen his real strength so I'm going to assume this is the Itachi we saw fight against Konoha Jonin (who, as stated wasn't even fighting with half his power btw), even then, Jiraiya isn't beating Itachi. What makes people think Jiraiya and his frogs with no knowledge won't get automatically knocked out by Tsukuyomi? Where is it shown that Sage chakra counters genjutsu? If anything, it should knock the victim out of sage mode since the balance will be disrupted.

It's very unlikely Jiraiya can outspeed Itachi and Boss summons are fodder vs sharingan genjutsu.
I.E. Manda

Itachi will be worn down, but will eventually outsmart Jiraiya.


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 23, 2009)

Ace Armstrong said:


> YOU FUCKING UCHIHA TARDS!!!!
> 
> ITACHI RAN, YES RAN FROM JIRAIYA WHILE HE WAS IN BASE MODE!!!!!
> 
> ...



LOL this is cool  and by the way it´s more than obvious that Itachi said it because he was on Konoha´s side, that´s why he didnt want to face Jiraiya. I dont say who would win, I´m just LOLed too much by your post now. Itachi owned Orochimaru (who is said to be the strongest sannin) in 10 secs. So the reason why said that about Jiraiya is pretty obvious.

But if you really believe Itachi and Kisame together dont stand a chance against him, I feel sorry for you. No hard feelings, but I think everybody, who´s normal, knows pretty well why he said that.


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 23, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> I kinda dont understand one thing. In every topic like this people mention Yomi Numa as a factor a lot. I think most of the people missunderstood this technique. I mean, when one says, Jiraiya can defeat someone using this jutsu... No he cant, it?s as simple as that.
> 
> Walking on water really is an absolutely basic thing in narutoverse, everybody can do that. And there?s no difference, so nobody will sink if Jiraiya would use this. Do you remember that syrup-like jutsu Izumo used? Kotetsu showed us Jiraiya?s tech is not working on shinobi.
> 
> That justu should be used against animals (summons) only. That?s the only purpose of the technique. And that?s exactly how Jiraiya used it. So dont say/think he can just instant sink anybody.



Look at the pain fight it drags people under, its not just muddy water when he used it against pain it was like quicksand.


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 23, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Look at the pain fight it drags people under, its not just muddy water when he used it against pain it was like quicksand.



He used it against Pein? Ah, my bad. Forgot about that, I?ll check it and see if it?s effective against shinobi. Thank you.


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 23, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Look at the pain fight it drags people under, its not just muddy water when he used it against pain it was like quicksand.



He used Yomi Numa against Pain? Scan please. I don't recall seeing him use that jutsu against any of the Pain bodies.


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## hmph (Dec 23, 2009)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> He used Yomi Numa against Pain? Scan please. I don't recall seeing him use that jutsu against any of the Pain bodies.





He used it on the ceiling and Human Realm, which has the strength to block HM Jiraiya couldn't move at all. In short: any attempt to use force to free a ninja from Yomi Numa would only end in freeing them from every limb trapped in it. 

Also, considering the situation of where and how it was used, either SM Jiraiya can create one instantly without seals or its invisible until it starts drawing something in, as Pain wasn't aware of it until it did that. And it can cover the entire battlefield if used in a large enough version.


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## S H A R D (Dec 23, 2009)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> He used Yomi Numa against Pain? Scan please. I don't recall seeing him use that jutsu against any of the Pain bodies.


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## Ace Armstrong (Dec 23, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> LOL this is cool  and by the way it?s more than obvious that Itachi said it because he was on Konoha?s side, that?s why he didnt want to face Jiraiya. I dont say who would win, I?m just LOLed too much by your post now. Itachi owned Orochimaru (who is said to be the strongest sannin) in 10 secs. So the reason why said that about Jiraiya is pretty obvious.
> 
> But if you really believe Itachi and Kisame together dont stand a chance against him, I feel sorry for you. No hard feelings, but I think everybody, who?s normal, knows pretty well why he said that.



Hey, i never said anything about kisame

I only said that itachi ran from jiraiya, maybe because was exausted, but ok

Itachi still *admitted himself* that he was no match for j-man

Don't put words in my mouth that i didn't say


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 23, 2009)

I sense some flaming going on in this thread. Tread lightly people. The ban hammer might be soon approaching >_>

Anyway, Itachi stands a decent chance at winning this. Mind you we've never seen Itachi fight seriously. EVER. And even while not fighting seriously he took down three jounin (Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai) and managed to best Sasuke in pure Taijutsu. Not to mention his speed is near incredible. Not even a Sharingan can keep up with his movements completely. As stated by Kakashi "When he moves it looks like he's teleporting." Kakashi said this while using his three tomoe Sharingan. So even without his Sharingan Itachi is far from useless. He's still fast, has powerful fire jutsus and can do pretty well in Taijutsu. All without killing intent. Also note, no restrictions. Amaterasu and Susano'o could greatly tip this match in his favour. Jiraiya's Swamp of the underword and Frog song could both also tip the match in his favour, but hitting those on Itachi will be harder than Amaterasu hitting Jiraiya.

Itachi wins 60//40 mostly because of his superior speed. In Taijutsu HM Jiraiya trumps him. Genjutsu Itachi wins. Ninjutsu Jiraiya wins. Original jutsus, Itachi wins. Amaterasu and Susano'o are certain victory jutsus against anyone who isn't on par with at least Raikage speed.


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## Dexion (Dec 23, 2009)

Ace Armstrong said:


> Hey, i never said anything about kisame
> 
> I only said that itachi ran from jiraiya, maybe because was exausted, but ok
> 
> ...



This is false. Itachi never said that.


Take a good look. Where does Itachi say he was no match for Jiraiya.


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## Bloo (Dec 23, 2009)

Ace Armstrong said:


> YOU FUCKING UCHIHA TARDS!!!!
> 
> *ITACHI RAN, YES RAN FROM JIRAIYA WHILE HE WAS IN BASE MODE!!!!!
> 
> ...



Lol, itachi ran from jiraiya in order to further protect naruto. Madara was pleased when itachi was dead because they didn't have itachi to protect konaha and naruto from akatsuki. And he said that he was weaker to kisame to discourage kisame from wanting to fight. But if what you're saying is true, then according to your theory then that must mean itachi killed the whole clan to test his abilities. I mean he said so to sasuke. 

Just because a character says something does not mean it has 100% validity until proven otherwise.

And yes itachi stands a very good chance against jiraiya. I mean orochimaru was praised as the strongest of the three, and yet itachi beat him twice by just looking at him.


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## Sanbi (Dec 23, 2009)

When was Orochimaru praised as the strongest as the Sannin?!? 

I would like a scan of that please. 

This may be about equal in my opinion, really depends who pulls out their trumps first.


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## Bloo (Dec 23, 2009)

Sanbi said:


> When was Orochimaru praised as the strongest as the Sannin?!?
> 
> I would like a scan of that please.
> 
> This may be about equal in my opinion, really depends who pulls out their trumps first.



Well I think praised is a little bit stronger of a word than required. But hiruzen constantly focused towards orochimaru because he believed he was the genius that only came once in a generation.


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## Sanbi (Dec 23, 2009)

I still doubt that means he was the strongest of the Sannin. He may have as a kid, as that was the time Hiruzen best knew the three, but after then went there separate ways and grew up, it may have changed dramatically. I doubt we can take Hiruzen's word when he only knew them as children. Honestly, I'd say Oro, and Jiraiya are about equal now, but Jiraiya may have the advantage in summons.


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## S H A R D (Dec 24, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> Lol, itachi ran from jiraiya in order to further protect naruto. Madara was pleased when itachi was dead because they didn't have itachi to protect konaha and naruto from akatsuki. And he said that he was weaker to kisame to discourage kisame from wanting to fight.



I wouldn't really say that. At that point, Itachi has no need to protect naruto because he doesn't really even know him. People behave like Itachi was a hero, but that is not the case. His work with akatsuki has lead him to hunt jinjuuriki  and persecute people (e.g. Kakashi, there was no need to tortue him for 3 days, thats jus evil) His intentions were good, but his methods show truth. Anyway it was only until Naruto stated he would save sasuke that he had any real need to protect him. 

Theres more logic in that Itachi was tired from the previous encounter and that there was no need to fight half-tired when they could easily get him another time. If u look at the scan, he's even panting and huffing. Besides discouraging kisame's will to fight is simple for him, you saw how he did it when kisame really wanted to kick gai's ass.


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

Sanbi said:


> I still doubt that means he was the strongest of the Sannin. He may have as a kid, as that was the time Hiruzen best knew the three, but after then went there separate ways and grew up, it may have changed dramatically. I doubt we can take Hiruzen's word when he only knew them as children. Honestly, I'd say Oro, and Jiraiya are about equal now, but Jiraiya may have the advantage in summons.



Actually when Orochimaru had grown up He and Hiruzen were still rather close. Even if Oro was doing his experiments in secrets.

In fact, here's a fun fact that not many people consider anymore.

When Hiruzen was choosing people for the title of fourth hokage he chose these three people in order. Orochimaru, but was denied the title given his experiments and such being found later on. Jiraiya, but denied the position given his need to constantly travel and write books. Then finally Minato. So in a way Hiruzen himself thought Orochimaru to be the most capable.


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## hmph (Dec 24, 2009)

As for Orochimaru, he thought Jiraiya was stronger than him to the point he was jealous of Jiraiya.  

And I'd like to see a scan of Kakashi saying Itachi's movements were like teleportation to him. I don't remember that, just him having trouble with Itachi's seal speed (although he still formed a perfect defense every time)


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

hmph said:


> As for Orochimaru, he thought Jiraiya was stronger than him to the point he was jealous of Jiraiya.
> 
> And I'd like to see a scan of Kakashi saying Itachi's movements were like teleportation to him. I don't remember that, just him having trouble with Itachi's seal speed (although he still formed a perfect defense every time)



Woops, my bad. Misread the databook entry. It says Itachi's movement speed makes it seem as though he's teleporting and was difficult for even Sasuke and Kakashi to keep up with or even read. Nonetheless, he'd be too fast for Jiraiya.

As for the statement Kakashi made, he was refering to their overall rivalry. Not that Orochimaru thought Jiraiya was stronger and was jealous. If anything Jiraiya could have been the jealous one as even Hiruzen praised Orochimaru.


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## hmph (Dec 24, 2009)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Woops, my bad. Misread the databook entry. It says Itachi's movement speed makes it seem as though he's teleporting and was difficult for even Sasuke and Kakashi to keep up with or even read. Nonetheless, he'd be too fast for Jiraiya.
> 
> As for the statement Kakashi made, he was refering to their overall rivalry. Not that Orochimaru thought Jiraiya was stronger and was jealous. If anything Jiraiya could have been the jealous one as even Hiruzen praised Orochimaru.



First of all, I think you're severely underestimating HM Jiraiya's speed. Pain could barely react to him at all. Without shared vision, Pain would've been blitzed by Jiraiya. Pain was unable to make a single seal before Jiraiya could see, react, and attack at a small distance to. Pain was unable to block his kicks, and only blocked his punch when he saw Jiraiya set it up. He couldn't stop Jiraiya from getting behind Human Realm, and he couldn't stop Jiraiya from escaping into the pipes. Again, when Jiraiya went for speed in his ninjutsu, Pain wasn't able to defend if not for shared vision. With a 3v1, Pain could do nothing but defend. Thats how fast Jiraiya is.

As for Itachi, the best feats we have of him put him at unable to blitz preskip Kakashi. I know,  very few people judge Itachi by his feats because he was "holding back" but I doubt he'd have any advantage in any area of speed except reaction speed due to his sharingan. His seals are faster, but HM Jiraiya almost never uses seals anyway.


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## Bloo (Dec 24, 2009)

S H A R D said:


> I wouldn't really say that. At that point, Itachi has no need to protect naruto because he doesn't really even know him. People behave like Itachi was a hero, but that is not the case. His work with akatsuki has lead him to hunt jinjuuriki  and persecute people (e.g. Kakashi, there was no need to tortue him for 3 days, thats jus evil) His intentions were good, but his methods show truth. Anyway it was only until Naruto stated he would save sasuke that he had any real need to protect him.



It wasn't necessarily naruto himself that itachi was trying to protect, he was mainly trying to keep akatsuki away from kyubi, so he never really tried to capture naruto. So essentially he did protect him in some way.


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

hmph said:


> First of all, I think you're severely underestimating HM Jiraiya's speed. Pain could barely react to him at all. Without shared vision, Pain would've been blitzed by Jiraiya. Pain was unable to make a single seal before Jiraiya could see, react, and attack at a small distance to. Pain was unable to block his kicks, and only blocked his punch when he saw Jiraiya set it up. He couldn't stop Jiraiya from getting behind Human Realm, and he couldn't stop Jiraiya from escaping into the pipes. Again, when Jiraiya went for speed in his ninjutsu, Pain wasn't able to defend if not for shared vision. With a 3v1, Pain could do nothing but defend. Thats how fast Jiraiya is.
> 
> As for Itachi, the best feats we have of him put him at unable to blitz preskip Kakashi. I know,  very few people judge Itachi by his feats because he was "holding back" but I doubt he'd have any advantage in any area of speed except reaction speed due to his sharingan. His seals are faster, but HM Jiraiya almost never uses seals anyway.



I feel as though you're the one underestimating Itachi now. Itachi has way more plausible speed feats then Jiraiya. Let's compare them.

Jiraiya in HM managed to outspeed Pain. Impressive? Last time I checked, not really. None of the pain bodies have been shown to be terribly fast. In fact, I can't bring up a single decent speed feat they've accomplished. So outspeeding them isn't really all that great IMO.

As for Itachi, he outsped two Sharingan users, one of them being Sasuke who's pretty fast himself. He was so fast he even subdued him at the very start of the match, but of course did not kill him because he had no intentions of killing Sasuke. Sasuke with 3 tomoe Sharingan was unable to defend himself against Itachi's taijutsu and Itachi's vision was impaired while he was dying from an illness. Not only that, the whole Shuriken thing was pretty darned impressive too. So in terms of speed there is no way Jiraiya can match him. If a Sharingan user can't even keep up with his movements when he's blind and dying what makes you think Jiraiya can against a healthy Itachi?


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## hmph (Dec 24, 2009)

All of the Paths seemed to fast for a normal jonin to react to. They were definately quite quick, and forcing 3 people of S-rank jonin speed on the defensive at the same time is not exactly a small feat. 

What are you considering Itachi's speed feats against Sasuke? Because a lot of that was genjutsu. The first non genjutsu clash they had was the shuriken fight. They only had one short meeting in close combat before Itachi's kage bunshin showed up. And Sasuke was certainly able to defend himself there. The only speed edge Itachi showed that entire fight over Sasuke was when he created the bunshin. Maybe when he dodged the chidori. But even that doesn't make his speed superior to HM Jiraiya's.


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## David (Dec 24, 2009)

Wait a moment, you 2 are comparing Itachi's and HM Jiraiya's speed?

Get real.

Show me 1 non-Genjutsu speed feat Itachi has that could even put him in the same league as Hermit Mode Jiraiya (not from seal speed, as that's a given for Itachi).


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 24, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Wait a moment, you 2 are comparing Itachi's and HM Jiraiya's speed?
> 
> Get real.
> 
> Show me 1 non-Genjutsu speed feat Itachi has that could even put him in the same league as Hermit Mode Jiraiya (not from seal speed, as that's a given for Itachi).



Here? 



When talking about using techniques, Itachi´s deffinitely comparable.


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## Bloo (Dec 24, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Wait a moment, you 2 are comparing Itachi's and HM Jiraiya's speed?
> 
> Get real.
> 
> Show me 1 non-Genjutsu speed feat Itachi has that could even put him in the same league as Hermit Mode Jiraiya (not from seal speed, as that's a given for Itachi).



Here's one,* you'll need to look at the next page as well.*


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 24, 2009)

On the other hand, where did you see Jiraiya beeing that fast? If you look here:



When he wanna catch Pein off guard, he uses smoke screen and another frog as a distraction. While Itachi was able to attack Kurenai/Kakashi from behind without smoke screen and distraction. I really think Itachi´s faster.


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## Vergil642 (Dec 24, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Wait a moment, you 2 are comparing Itachi's and HM Jiraiya's speed?
> 
> Get real.
> 
> Show me 1 non-Genjutsu speed feat Itachi has that could even put him in the same league as Hermit Mode Jiraiya (not from seal speed, as that's a given for Itachi).



Show me one speed feat from HM Jiraiya that beats Gated preskip Lee. No powerscaling, outright better feats.

I'll wait.

Oh, and unlike Jiraiya Itachi has successfully moved from point A to B faster than another character can see (did it against Kurenai twice, although the first time she was distracted after having been kicked into the river).


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## KakashiOfTheSharingan (Dec 24, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Show me one speed feat from HM Jiraiya that beats Gated preskip Lee. No powerscaling, outright better feats.
> 
> I'll wait.
> 
> Oh, and unlike Jiraiya Itachi has successfully moved from point A to B faster than another character can see (did it against Kurenai twice, although the first time she was distracted after having been kicked into the river).



speed doesn't matter as itachi aint touching HM Jaraiya.


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 24, 2009)

KakashiOfTheSharingan said:


> speed doesn't matter as itachi aint touching HM Jaraiya.



Speed matters a lot. It?s tricky to hit faster opponent with sharingan.


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## ? (Dec 24, 2009)

KakashiOfTheSharingan said:


> speed doesn't matter as itachi aint touching HM Jaraiya.


proof that HM jiraiya is that much faster than itachi? assuming he even is.


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## KakashiOfTheSharingan (Dec 24, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> Speed matters a lot. It?s tricky to hit faster opponent with sharingan.



Getting close to Jiraiya is a bad move from Itachi, Jiraiys durability and Katas (if he can use them) Will be deadly for Itachi, not to mention the superhuman strength. The only thing Itachi can do is, try his best to evade Jiraiya's Jutsu while Trying to get a hold on Jiraiya's Sage chakra with his Tsukuyomi. Which Will probably be useless.


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## KakashiOfTheSharingan (Dec 24, 2009)

Inu said:


> proof that HM jiraiya is that much faster than itachi? assuming he even is.



I was reffering to the fact that in HM Itachi wont be able to get a hit on Jiraiys without having his neck broke.


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## ? (Dec 24, 2009)

KakashiOfTheSharingan said:


> I was reffering to the fact that in HM Itachi wont be able to get a hit on Jiraiys without having his neck broke.


why? push comes to shove it's jiraiya that won't land a hit on itachi, because of susanoo, which itachi can summon fast enough to even block lightning.

anyway this match is played in IC without knowledge and a IC without knowledge jiraiya looks into itachi's eyes just like in the manga. and from there itachi tsukuyomi's him.


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 24, 2009)

KakashiOfTheSharingan said:


> Getting close to Jiraiya is a bad move from Itachi, Jiraiys durability and Katas (if he can use them) Will be deadly for Itachi, not to mention the superhuman strength. The only thing Itachi can do is, try his best to evade Jiraiya's Jutsu while Trying to get a hold on Jiraiya's Sage chakra with his Tsukuyomi. Which Will probably be useless.



Well yeah, but Itachi is not Lee. Why would he try CQC against Jiraiya? I was talking about speed being important for evading attacks. 

And Tsukuyomi being useless ... You cant prove sage mode makes you immune to genjutsu.


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## Sanbi (Dec 24, 2009)

Why did someone necro this thread anyway?


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## KakashiOfTheSharingan (Dec 24, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> Well yeah, but Itachi is not Lee. Why would he try CQC against Jiraiya?
> 
> *Because apart from a few weak Katons, and some Shuriken Jutsu, It's all Itachi has.*
> I was talking about speed being important for evading attacks.
> ...



..........


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## hmph (Dec 24, 2009)

Inu said:


> why? push comes to shove it's jiraiya that won't land a hit on itachi, because of susanoo, which itachi can summon fast enough to even block lightning.
> 
> anyway this match is played in IC without knowledge and a IC without knowledge jiraiya looks into itachi's eyes just like in the manga. and from there itachi tsukuyomi's him.



Erm, no. IC without knowledge goes both ways for one - Itachi would both hold back and wouldn't go MS unless Jiraiya makes him. Jiraiya, however, has shown no compulsions against whipping out his most powerful abilities from the start, probably because they don't hurt him. Normal genjutsu is a fail against Jiraiya, the toad sages could easily break him out. However... Susano'o bones are probably not strong enough to stop Chou Oodama Rasengan or Deep Friar. Just compare them to the kage attacks that pushed Susano'o to its limits before. The only way for Susano'o to save Itachi is if hes forced to use it against Jiraiya's weaker attacks and Jiraiya uses those weaker attacks, and he lasts long enough for the Yata Mirror to come out. And then of course theres Yomi Numa.

Anyways, about speed: Kurenai was stated as slow anyway, that speed was nothing Kakashi couldn't handle. Using Kurenai as a basis for Itachi's speed is a pretty poor argument seeing as we've never seen her fight anyone else. Pain on the other hand, was certainly on par with other S-ranked jonins. And he could barely react to Jiraiya, when he could at all. Yes, Jiraiya prefer to incorporate trickery that was useless against the shared vision, but it was unneccessary. It actually helped Pain because he saw the setup for the attacks.     Pain was unable to block, react, or really do anything about Jiraiya's movements. He didn't even seem to see Jiraiya getting behind the three paths, having to figure it out after the action. Where was Jiraiya fast, indeed.


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 24, 2009)

KakashiOfTheSharingan said:


> ..........



The what? Itacih is not Sasuke. He wont rush forward like an idiot, man. And CQC is all Itachi has (except few katons)? His nin is tier 5 and gen as well. 

Genjutsu immunity hah? Sorry, but the fact it makes you better doesnt mean you´re genjutsu immune. I´m pretty sure Kurenai would have problems keeping Jiraiya in genjutsu, but saying he´ll break from Tsukuyomi ... Itachi himself stated that only Uchiha can do that. The fact sage mode improves your ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu and everything else doesnt mean your ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu and everything else will be the best in the world. Yeah it will improve your genjutsu resistance, but no one´s resistance is good enough to break from Tsukuyomi. So the only thing is that it would give Jiraiya a total genujtsu immunity. Do you really believe that? Nobody has ever said that. It´s pretty certain Tsukuyomi would affect Jiraiya.


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## Mr.Blonde (Dec 24, 2009)

Other than the feat hmph posted(,where the 3 Pains couldn't even see Jiraiya running past them to hide in the pipes),there's also 
He moved so fast the wall were he was standing on exploded.Note that he was also busy forming a Chou Odama Rasengan...


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## ? (Dec 24, 2009)

hmph said:


> Erm, no.


Erm, yes.


> IC without knowledge goes both ways for one - Itachi would both hold back and wouldn't go MS unless Jiraiya makes him.


except itachi has killing intent here.and he has used tsukuyomi at the start of a fight before. such as with sasuke in part 1. and even if it wasn't a real fight, itachi has used tsukuyomi as a first move before. jiraiya however has not started with his most powerful jutsus before.


> Jiraiya, however, has shown no compulsions against whipping out his most powerful abilities from the start, probably because they don't hurt him.


like when?


> Normal genjutsu is a fail against Jiraiya, the toad sages could easily break him out. However... Susano'o bones are probably not strong enough to stop Chou Oodama Rasengan or Deep Friar.


proof? his susanoo blocked kirin. an attack that leveled a giant hill. deep fryer nor chou odama rasengan have shown that kind of destructive power. based on whats been shown, itachi can block both of those attacks with susanoo.also how will jiraiya know he's in genjutsu? the thing about itachi is he uses genjutsu in ways that make it unoticable that you have even been caught in one. without knowledge jiraiya looks in his eyes in canon fashion. and the toads can't break him out of tsuyomi. it's a possibility that they will get caught in genjutsu as well.


> Just compare them to the kage attacks that pushed Susano'o to its limits before.


sasukes incomplete susanoo? 


> The only way for Susano'o to save Itachi is if hes forced to use it against Jiraiya's weaker attacks and Jiraiya uses those weaker attacks, and he lasts long enough for the Yata Mirror to come out. And then of course theres Yomi Numa.


yomi numa is nulled by susanoo. the sword seals the swamp.


> Anyways, about speed: Kurenai was stated as slow anyway, that speed was nothing Kakashi couldn't handle. Using Kurenai as a basis for Itachi's speed is a pretty poor argument seeing as we've never seen her fight anyone else. Pain on the other hand, was certainly on par with other S-ranked jonins. And he could barely react to Jiraiya, when he could at all. Yes, Jiraiya prefer to incorporate trickery that was useless against the shared vision, but it was unneccessary. It actually helped Pain because he saw the setup for the attacks.     He was unable to block, react, or really do anything about Jiraiya's movements. He didn't even seem to see Jiraiya getting behind the three paths, having to figure it out after the action. Where was Jiraiya fast, indeed.


about the speed. itachi has tier 5 speed. jiraiya has 4.5 in speed. this says it all. and before you say HM boost jiraiyas speed a great deal and is beyond tier 4.5, mind proving that? he has no feats to prove he's tier 5 speed.we have seen deidara being blitzed by sasuke, and both of them where in the same speed tier .so it's possible he never even left tier 4.5 even with HM,and feats back this up. and unlike naruto he didin't complete his SM and even then naruto lacks proof his speed increase to an unimaginable level.


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

hmph said:


> All of the Paths seemed to fast for a normal jonin to react to. They were definately quite quick, and forcing 3 people of S-rank jonin speed on the defensive at the same time is not exactly a small feat.
> 
> What are you considering Itachi's speed feats against Sasuke? Because a lot of that was genjutsu. The first non genjutsu clash they had was the shuriken fight. They only had one short meeting in close combat before Itachi's kage bunshin showed up. And Sasuke was certainly able to defend himself there. The only speed edge Itachi showed that entire fight over Sasuke was when he created the bunshin. Maybe when he dodged the chidori. But even that doesn't make his speed superior to HM Jiraiya's.



Once again, wrong. Remember when Itachi pinned Sasuke against the wall before creating the illusion that his eyes were taken out? That was his own speed. Sasuke barely had any time to react to him. We've never seen Sasuke get taken down with Taijutsu that easily and quickly. I'm pretty sure HM Jiraiya can't pull that off.

As for the Pain bodies, they've managed to put some fodder jounin on the ropes. And managed to pressure Kakashi in a 2 on 1 fight. Hardly impressive.

Show me one scan in which Jiraiya managed to pin down someone with a 4.5 in speed and a 3 tomoe Sharingan down in 3 panels. Go ahead. I'm waiting.


In the mean time  Enough said.


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## Sanbi (Dec 24, 2009)

I thought it was common knowledge it was  that Itachi created a genjutsu on Sasuke, because they were clearly making eye contact, with MS on no doubt. They weren't even  when Sasuke broke out of the genjutsu.


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 24, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> Other than the feat hmph posted(,where the 3 Pains couldn't even see Jiraiya running past them to hide in the pipes),there's also
> He moved so fast the wall were he was standing on exploded.Note that he was also busy forming a Chou Odama Rasengan...



Well, even Gaara showed the same thing, Shunshin is effective when you wanna leave the battlefield or as an enterance. You just need something to cover your body for a while, it´s a basic thing in narutoverse. I wanna see where Jiraiya´s fighing and outspeeds his opponent. 

That Chou Oodama Rasengan does not satisfy me. Maybe Pein could dodge it, but he didnt want to, because he knew he could absorb it with ease. Or he just couldnt dodge it, because it´s that large. I wanna see pure outspeeding 

I still think Itachi´s faster.



Sanbi said:


> I thought it was common knowledge it was  that Itachi created a genjutsu on Sasuke, because they were clearly making eye contact, with MS on no doubt. They weren't even  when Sasuke broke out of the genjutsu.



This is true, he´s right. Still that doent really matter, cause Itachi has already shown enough speed. But yes, this was pure genjutsu (most likely).


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## hmph (Dec 24, 2009)

Inu said:


> except itachi has killing intent here.and he has used tsukuyomi at the start of a fight before. such as with sasuke in part 1. and even if it wasn't a real fight, itachi has used tsukuyomi as a first move before. jiraiya however has not started with his most powerful jutsus before.



You're actually trying to use him vs Sasuke as an example of how he reacts IC to a random shinobi. Well, if you say so. Itachi charges straight forward and uses taijutsu, just like he did against Sasuke in part 1. Jiraiya rapes him. The end.

IC doesn't mean they follow a set pattern of moves they used in a different fight before. It means we incorporate their style, moral restrictions and personality as heavily influencing their fight. Itachi isn't starting with the MS, just as he didn't against Deidara, or Kurenai, or Kakashi, or Sasuke, or Orochimaru, or Sasuke. Jiraiya, on the other hand, has never held back when he wanted a kill. Deep Friar and Ultimate Rasengan were the first things that came out against Pain, and a similar distance and knowledge is presented here.



> proof? his susanoo blocked kirin. an attack that leveled a giant hill. deep fryer nor chou odama rasengan have shown that kind of destructive power. based on whats been shown, itachi can block both of those attacks with susanoo.also how will jiraiya know he's in genjutsu? the thing about itachi is he uses genjutsu in ways that make it unoticable that you have even been caught in one. without knowledge jiraiya looks in his eyes in canon fashion. and the toads can't break him out of tsuyomi. it's a possibility that they will get caught in genjutsu as well.



Oh, its the prove it game eh? Such a cliche impasse. Prove Jiraiya can't tank Tsukiyomi with his incredible willpower. Prove he can't dodge Amaterasu. Prove he can't escape normal genjutsu. Prove Susano'o can tank Ultimate Rasengan when it could barely tank a backhand by Raikage. We "prove" things by modest to mediocre evidence, thats just a reality of the battledome. Such as the speed argument.  possessed a tremendous destructive power. Compared to Ultimate Rasengan, it was a tiny thing. Considering Raikage's destructive force and what it was able to do to Susano'o, I see no reason why Susano'o would stand any chance here. And Deep Friar. A triple element sage tech. Mei was melting Susano'o with a mere two element combination, I see no reason why engulfing Susano'o in Deep Friar would fail to melt it either.

Susano'o is still Susano'o, Sasuke may not have been able to control it perfectly or have Itachi's items but that makes little difference in how tough the bones are.



> yomi numa is nulled by susanoo. the sword seals the swamp.



And the entire planet I suppose? :rofl Itachi is in the swamp, so at the least he'd go with it.



> about the speed. itachi has tier 5 speed. jiraiya has 4.5 in speed. this says it all. and before you say HM boost jiraiyas speed a great deal and is beyond tier 4.5, mind proving that? he has no feats to prove he's tier 5 speed.we have seen deidara being blitzed by sasuke, and both of them where in the same speed tier .so it's possible he never even left tier 4.5 even with HM,and feats back this up. and unlike naruto he didin't complete his SM and even then naruto lacks proof his speed increase to an unimaginable level.



Mmm, resorting to the databook and trying to claim SM doesn't increase speed. I'll take that as a concession, you're grasping at straws.



KumogakureRaikage said:


> Once again, wrong. Remember when Itachi pinned Sasuke against the wall before creating the illusion that his eyes were taken out? That was his own speed. Sasuke barely had any time to react to him. We've never seen Sasuke get taken down with Taijutsu that easily and quickly. I'm pretty sure HM Jiraiya can't pull that off.
> 
> As for the Pain bodies, they've managed to put some fodder jounin on the ropes. And managed to pressure Kakashi in a 2 on 1 fight. Hardly impressive.
> 
> Show me one scan in which Jiraiya managed to pin down someone with a 4.5 in speed down in 3 panels. Go ahead. I'm waiting.



 And one Pain body pressured Kakashi. It beat him in taijutsu, actually.



> I still think Itachi´s faster.



Well, its possible, since Itachi is a character we've never seen go all out. But I don't think his feats show it. Honestly I think this fight won't be decided by speed at all.


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

hmph said:


> You're actually trying to use him vs Sasuke as an example of how he reacts IC to a random shinobi. Well, if you say so. Itachi charges straight forward and uses taijutsu, just like he did against Sasuke in part 1. Jiraiya rapes him. The end.
> 
> IC doesn't mean they follow a set pattern of moves they used in a different fight before. It means we incorporate their style, moral restrictions and personality as heavily influencing their fight. Itachi isn't starting with the MS, just as he didn't against Deidara, or Kurenai, or Kakashi, or Sasuke, or Orochimaru, or Sasuke. Jiraiya, on the other hand, has never held back when he wanted a kill. Deep Friar and Ultimate Rasengan were the first things that came out against Pain, and a similar distance and knowledge is presented here.
> 
> ...



Wrong again. TWO bodies pressured Kakashi. Two. Not one. Deva would have been killed three times in that fight had it not been for Asura being there. So once again, outspeeding Pain is not an incredibly plausible feat. However, outspeeding a 3 tomoe Sharingan user is.

As for your little proving thing...

Amaterasu happens in the blink of an eye and only someone with the reaction speed of the fourth hokage can dodge a direct hit. Jiraiya has no such reactions peed.

ITACHI'S Susano'o has sword of totsuka that seals anything it touches.

SASUKE'S Susano'o does not have Yata no Kagami which blocks ANY attack. Itachi's does, so Any move Jiraiya uses is shit.

This doesn't even have to come down to Susano'o. Amaterasu will finish Jiraiya off as he doesn't have the reactions speed needed to dodge. The only person shown to dodge the attack is Raikage.


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## Shay (Dec 24, 2009)

I just don't see how Jiraiya can beat Tsukuyomi, in any mode, unfortunately.  Jiraiya's good, but Tsukuyomi would take this in a heartbeat. It can't be broken out of unless you have a Sharingan and are really powerful. I can agree that his standard Genjutsu would be nigh but worthless against him while the frogs were alive.


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## Mist Puppet (Dec 24, 2009)

So Jiraiya, who has more willpower than *PRE-SKIP* Kakashi (he fought with one arm in HM mode), is going to be defeated by one Tsukiyomi?


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

Mist Puppet said:


> So Jiraiya, who has more willpower than *PRE-SKIP* Kakashi (he fought with one arm in HM mode), is going to be defeated by one Tsukiyomi?



Given the way Tsukuyomi works, yes. He might not be killed by it, but he'd be left a wreck and an easy target. As stated by both Kakashi and the data book Tsukuyomi can only be broken by someone who posesses a Sharingan. That's why everyone ususally restricts Tsukuyomi in BD. It's way too hax.


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## hmph (Dec 24, 2009)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Wrong again. TWO bodies pressured Kakashi. Two. Not one. Deva would have been killed three times in that fight had it not been for Asura being there. So once again, outspeeding Pain is not an incredibly plausible feat. However, outspeeding a 3 tomoe Sharingan user is.



There is difference between a speed advantage and victory, and it wasn't just Kakashi fighting Deva at that point. Deva had enough speed to pressure Kakashi, he damaged Kakashi and stopped Kakashi's attacks. The bodies have the speed of an S-ranked jonin level of combat at least.



> As for your little proving thing...
> 
> Amaterasu happens in the blink of an eye and only someone with the reaction speed of the fourth hokage can dodge a direct hit. Jiraiya has no such reactions peed.
> 
> ...



No... we know that Raikage can dodge Sasuke's Amaterasu (which was stated to be better than Itachi's anyway). Someone slower than him could still dodge it in a more narrow fashion. Someone at a farther distance could dodge it. We know Sasuke almost dodged Itachi's, and we know Itachi was holding back. Now, prove to me an exact comparison of the speed of Itachi's Amaterasu against Jiraiya's shunshin and reaction and the distance you think they'd be used at. Beginning to see the problem with a "prove it" mentality? We have very sparse information, we can only infer. I can't "prove" much and neither can you, thats the point of debate.

The point of the breaking Susano'o argument is Jiraiya is going right through it is when initially used, before the Yata Mirror comes out.


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## Mist Puppet (Dec 24, 2009)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Given the way Tsukuyomi works, yes. He might not be killed by it, but he'd be left a wreck and an easy target. As stated by both Kakashi and the data book Tsukuyomi can only be broken by someone who posesses a Sharingan. That's why everyone ususally restricts Tsukuyomi in BD. It's way too hax.



That is a load of bull. I'm not saying he's going to break it, but he's not going to be a major wreck after one. Tsukiyomi is not that strong, and people are overestimating it entirely. 

I'd like to see Pre-Skip Kakashi fight the Pain bodies HM Jiraiya did with one arm ripped off.


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## ? (Dec 24, 2009)

hmph said:


> You're actually trying to use him vs Sasuke as an example of how he reacts IC to a random shinobi. Well, if you say so. Itachi charges straight forward and uses taijutsu, just like he did against Sasuke in part 1. Jiraiya rapes him. The end.


and then jiraya hits an exploding bunshin after being blitzed by itachi's handseal speed.the end.


> IC doesn't mean they follow a set pattern of moves they used in a different fight before. It means we incorporate their style, moral restrictions and personality as heavily influencing their fight. Itachi isn't starting with the MS, just as he didn't against Deidara, or Kurenai, or Kakashi, or Sasuke, or Orochimaru, or Sasuke. Jiraiya, on the other hand, has never held back when he wanted a kill. Deep Friar and Ultimate Rasengan were the first things that came out against Pain, and a similar distance and knowledge is presented here.


name one time that itachi had killing intent and we saw it? you have no idea how he would fight with killing intent. we have seen him use MS at the start of a fight, so i will use it. we have never seen him fight a random ninja with killing intent so i will not change my argument to suit you. he used tsukuyomi as his first attack against sasuke in part 1, so thats what i'm using here.and a IC jiraiya looked into itachi's eyes so he gets hit with tsukuyomi. what do you think an itachi with killing intent would do in that situation? nothing? and even if itachi was to just use base sharingan genjutsu he could still still win, since jiraiya has noway to know he has been caught since itachi uses genjutsu in a way you can't tell you are in one until it's over. the toads may get caught as well.




> Oh, its the prove it game eh? Such a cliche impasse. Prove Jiraiya can't tank Tsukiyomi with his incredible willpower. Prove he can't dodge Amaterasu. Prove he can't escape normal genjutsu.


i don't have to prove anything, since he hasn't shown feats of doing any of this.


> Prove Susano'o can tank Ultimate Rasengan when it could barely tank a backhand by Raikage.


and yet you want to use another characters technique for your argument when the character in this debate has tanked a kirin with his susanoo. ultimate rasengan has shown no feats to prove it's as strong as kirin.


> We "prove" things by modest to mediocre evidence, thats just a reality of the battledome. Such as the speed argument.  possessed a tremendous destructive power. Compared to Ultimate Rasengan, it was a tiny thing. Considering Raikage's destructive force and what it was able to do to Susano'o, I see no reason why Susano'o would stand any chance here. And Deep Friar. A triple element sage tech. Mei was melting Susano'o with a mere two element combination, I see no reason why engulfing Susano'o in Deep Friar would fail to melt it either.


and yet the strongest katon, amaterasu couldn't melt susanoo, which has better feats than deep friar, even though it's been trolled. i will not believe that a katon with less feats can melt susanoo when amaterasu couldn't. and for the love of god will you stop talikng about the feats of sasukes susanoo..please. itachi has the mirror as well. and for all we know a puch from raikage>ultimate rasengan. so your point is nulled.


> Susano'o is still Susano'o, Sasuke may not have been able to control it perfectly or have Itachi's items but that makes little difference in how tough the bones are.


why is it that itachi's can tank kirin and yet, sasuke's can't tank a punch.
punch>kirin perhaps? but non of jiraiyas jutsu have been shown to be that destructive so the argument of jiraiya breaking it are nulled.


> And the entire planet I suppose? :rofl Itachi is in the swamp, so at the least he'd go with it.



the sword freaking seals what it's target is. if it isn't going for itachi it doesn't have to seal him. common sense.


> Mmm, resorting to the databook and trying to claim SM doesn't increase speed. I'll take that as a concession, you're grasping at straws.


 i'm not saying it doesn't increase speed. but jiraiya lacks feats to put him in tier 5 speed. and no i'm not grasping at straws. you are. thinking just because jiraiya had 4.5 speed to began with that HM boosts him to tier 5 despite his lack of feats to prove it. itachi was directly praised for his speed in the manga. jiraiya was not. itachi has blitzed sharingan. jiraiya has no feats to prove he can do this.


lol and i'm the one grasping for straws 

if you reply, i'll get backto you later, i am about to go out peace


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

hmph said:


> There is difference between a speed advantage and victory, and it wasn't just Kakashi fighting Deva at that point. Deva had enough speed to pressure Kakashi, he damaged Kakashi and stopped Kakashi's attacks. The bodies have the speed of an S-ranked jonin level of combat at least.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Distance matters now against Amaterasu. Have you forgotten how it works? Whatever he looks at is set ablaze. It's not like a beam or flamethrower or anything. As soon as he sets eyes on you the flame appears. Only someone with hightened reaction speed like Raikage can possibly dodge that. HM Jiraiya is fast, but nowhere near as fast as Raikage. Heck I bet even Itachi would get hit by Amaterasu. I say this once again. No one with the same speed as Yondaime can avoid this attack. Everyone other than Raikage has been hit, witch the exception of Sasuke, but that's only because Itachi was aiming Amaterasu at the flame before him and not Sasuke.

And how on earth is Jiraiya going to break through Susano'o without the mirror stopping him? That's impossible. He doesn't have the speed or the power needed to destroy Susano'o. Even if he manages to break one bone, how does that help him? He'd be close to it and sword of Totsuka would hit him. It's god damn suicide.


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## Bloo (Dec 24, 2009)

Mist Puppet said:


> That is a load of bull. I'm not saying he's going to break it, but he's not going to be a major wreck after one. Tsukiyomi is not that strong, and people are overestimating it entirely.
> 
> I'd like to see Pre-Skip Kakashi fight the Pain bodies HM Jiraiya did with one arm ripped off.



Yes he would be a major wreck after it, as stated only a sharingan user can break tsukuyomi. And it's believed that if it's not broken then sharingan weakens the blow, I believe that was stated by itachi. But when itachi used it on kakashi who had 3 tome sharingan, he was in a comatose state for nearly a week, and even then stated that itachi could have killed him if he wanted to. And yes tsukyomi is that strong, or else it wouldn't be dubbed as the strongest genjutsu.


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## Cogitation (Dec 24, 2009)

Mist Puppet said:


> So Jiraiya, who has more willpower than *PRE-SKIP* Kakashi (he fought with one arm in HM mode), is going to be defeated by one Tsukiyomi?



As stated by Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke, Zetsu, and everyone else relative to the move: one must possess a mastery of the Sharingan to resist _Tsukiyomi_. Assuming Jiraiya can endure mental anguish because of impressive physical feats is about as logical as assuming the Michael Phelps can defeat Bobby Fischer in a game of chess. They are two different areas entirely.



KumogakureRaikage said:


> HM Jiraiya is fast, but nowhere near as fast as Raikage. Heck I bet even Itachi would get hit by Amaterasu. I say this once again. No one with the same speed as Yondaime can avoid this attack.



Not only was Raikage _that_ fast, but he also had the ability to look the Mangyekou in the eyes. Furthermore, as Shi stated, he was _prepared_ for it, and he has the _reflexes_ as well as the speed to dodge it. Hermit Mode Jiraiya has none of those advantages. It's very unlikely that he has a suitable counter to Amatarasu. He is a poor matchup for Itachi's attacks.


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## David (Dec 24, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Show me one speed feat from HM Jiraiya that beats Gated preskip Lee. No powerscaling, outright better feats.
> 
> I'll wait.
> 
> Oh, and unlike Jiraiya Itachi has successfully moved from point A to B faster than another character can see (did it against Kurenai twice, although the first time she was distracted after having been kicked into the river).



Blitzing Pre-Kurenai and Pre-Kakashi is, IMO, incredibly overrated.

As for Gated Pre-Lee, the guy's a fucking beast! His speed feat of causing a shockwave that ripped up the ground into boulders just by running kicking Gaara is, IMO (unless you can give me proof of otherwise), greater than any speed feat that Itachi and Jiraiya have each shown.

But here are some distance covering speed feats from Hermit Mode Jiraiya that I'd like to see Itachi match:







Before you criticize them, please provide the links to support your point of debate (Itachi's speed being greater than Hermit Mode Jiraiya's).


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Blitzing Pre-Kurenai and Pre-Kakashi is, IMO, incredibly overrated.
> 
> As for Gated Pre-Lee, the guy's a fucking beast! His speed feat of causing a shockwave that ripped up the ground into boulders just by running kicking Gaara is, IMO (unless you can give me proof of otherwise), greater than any speed feat that Itachi and Jiraiya have each shown.
> 
> ...



Just so you know, the third scan was just a smoke bomb. Nothing to do with speed. And even so Pain still knew where Jiraiya went.

Also, Jiraiya was only barely able to outspeed pain bodies. Itachi is fast enough to outspeed a 3 tomoe sharingan without the use of jutsus. This is more impressive than HM Jiraiya's speed feets.


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## Mist Puppet (Dec 24, 2009)

Cogitation said:


> As stated by Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke, Zetsu, and everyone else relative to the move: one must possess a mastery of the Sharingan to resist _Tsukiyomi_. Assuming Jiraiya can endure mental anguish because of impressive physical feats is about as logical as assuming the Michael Phelps can defeat Bobby Fischer in a game of chess. They are two different areas entirely.



The fact that I was associating with in accordance to Jiraiya fighting with one arm is willpower. Yes, his mind will be anguished, but he can have the power to continue fighting. The guy has insane durability, and I don't think tsukiyomi is going to one-shot him at all. Itachi will have to follow up if he wants to defeat him.

Assuming, of course, he has a chance to use Tsukiyomi.


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

Mist Puppet said:


> The fact that I was associating with in accordance to Jiraiya fighting with one arm is willpower. Yes, his mind will be anguished, but he can have the power to continue fighting. The guy has insane durability, and I don't think tsukiyomi is going to one-shot him at all. Itachi will have to follow up if he wants to defeat him.
> 
> Assuming, of course, he has a chance to use Tsukiyomi.



I agree with you... somewhat. A tsukuyomi with no killing intent was enough to put Kakashi away for a week. However, Jiraiya willed himself back from the brink of death. I believe that even if Tsukuyomi fucked his mind he would still be able to stay conscious... But to say that he can fight? Just no man. Anyone hit by Tsukuyomi  can't fight back, no matter how hard they try. Even if he does he'd be weaker than before.


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## Mist Puppet (Dec 24, 2009)

I never said he's be able to fight on the same level. That is just stupid. He'd be able to fight, but if Itachi wants to kill him, he'll have to follow up.

No way am I saying HM Jiraiya is going to be fighting on the same level before Tsukiyomi.


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 24, 2009)

Mist Puppet said:


> I never said he's be able to fight on the same level. That is just stupid. He'd be able to fight, but if Itachi wants to kill him, he'll have to follow up.
> 
> No way am I saying HM Jiraiya is going to be fighting on the same level before Tsukiyomi.



Do you believe that after being hit by Tsukuyomi Jiraiya can avoid being killed by Jiraiya? I think that if Tsukuyomi hits, even if Jiraiya can keep fighting, the fight is over. Kakashi could hardly defend himself after a weak Tsukuyomi. I doubt Jiraiya can.


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## Cogitation (Dec 24, 2009)

Mist Puppet said:


> The fact that I was associating with in accordance to Jiraiya fighting with one arm is willpower. Yes, his mind will be anguished, but he can have the power to continue fighting. The guy has insane durability, and I don't think tsukiyomi is going to one-shot him at all. Itachi will have to follow up if he wants to defeat him. Assuming, of course, he has a chance to use Tsukiyomi.



The only assumption is on your part by ignoring every relevant character's statement involving tanking _Tsukiyomi_ and equivocating physical and mental durability or willpower. Orochimaru can endure plenty of physical damage and would probably keep fighting with both of his arms and legs permanently removed, but that doesn't mean he can brush off mental damage. In fact, the opposite has been shown. Your assumption's foundation is fallacious.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 25, 2009)

HM Jiraiya would likely defeat Itachi, assuming he doesn't pull out his trump first. Susano'o is the deal breaker, although, we haven't seen it's power tested completely but it provides an almost impregnable defense. Other than that, HM Jiraiya dominates Itachi in all aspects except for genjutsu.


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## Goobtachi (Dec 25, 2009)

Itachi absolutely rapestomps Jiraiya:
1.Tsukiyomi :I really like the arguments that say Jiraiya has more will power than pre-skip kakashi(did soemthing change between part 1 and part 2,anyway ).Kakashi has seen his best friend killed and he turned his sadness into power,the will power kakashi showed agaisnt pain is probably on the same level on what Jiriaya did against the same pain;Assuming Jiraiya can somehow withstand Tsukiyomi is utter bullshit,especially with Itachi having killing intent
2.Amaterasu:Guys who think Itachi will be fooled by some KB are really laughable.Jiraiya is no Itachi,his KB are not cast fast enough to fool a sharingan user;and Itachi won't use ama until he's sure he's against the right one.And there,game over.HM Jiriaya has no speed feat(the thing with sandals falling is mostly a strenght feat)that put him on the level of raikage,so he's burnt like everyone else who is not fast enough to dodge it.
3.Susanoo need to resort to susanoo,since the two previous technique are more than enough to deal with someone on Jiraiya's level,but if somehow HM jiraiya magically could avoid them(which is impossibe,unless itachi decides to use susanoo first),he's dead here


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## ? (Dec 25, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Blitzing Pre-Kurenai and Pre-Kakashi is, IMO, incredibly overrated.
> 
> As for Gated Pre-Lee, the guy's a fucking beast! His speed feat of causing a shockwave that ripped up the ground into boulders just by running kicking Gaara is, IMO (unless you can give me proof of otherwise), greater than any speed feat that Itachi and Jiraiya have each shown.
> 
> ...


those speed feats don't really match up to itachi's. infact sasuke has better speed feats than that, and he's tier 4.5. itachi has sharingan blitzing speed, something we have only seen from a few characters. and that would be gai, gated lee, killer bee, raikage, and itachi. jiraiya has not shown that kind of speed.

and you know someone is fast in the manga when another character says it. itachi's speed has been praised in the manga. pein never said, "whoa, he's fast" to jiraiya.


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## Griever (Dec 25, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Can you show me the evidence?
> I don't remember that in recent chapters.
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi uses susanno..



Then what?.

Well, putting that aside i'd say this fight is more of a draw, In HM Jiraiya has Ma and pa to break out of genjutsu, plus Jiraiya's offensive power of pretty damn good. With Amaterasu Jiraiya could use his hair jutsu to block (though he'd be getting a hair cut after words) from what i can tell the hair jutsu is probably an earth element related attack (harding and all) either way it doesn't matter, it's a solid substance that can intercept amaterasu's flames.

But i think Tsukiyomi would be dangerous for jiraiya.


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## David (Dec 25, 2009)

Inu said:


> those speed feats don't really match up to itachi's. infact sasuke has better speed feats than that, and he's tier 4.5. itachi has sharingan blitzing speed, something we have only seen from a few characters. and that would be gai, gated lee, killer bee, raikage, and itachi. jiraiya has not shown that kind of speed.
> 
> and you know someone is fast in the manga when another character says it. itachi's speed has been praised in the manga. pein never said, "whoa, he's fast" to jiraiya.



Inu.

_Provide me with 1 speed feat Itachi has that can outmatch those I provided._

I hope you realize that blitzing _*Genjutsu specialist*_ Kurenai and _*Pre-*_Kakashi at _6 meters_ isn't anything special in Part 2.

Until someone provides me with a link, all I see backing up the thought of Itachi's speed being faster than HM Jiraiya's is the Databook.


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## ? (Dec 25, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Inu.
> 
> _Provide me with 1 speed feat Itachi has that can outmatch those I provided._
> 
> ...


why isn't blitzing pre skip kakashi not impressive? did his sharingan prediction somehow get better over the time skip? did part 1 feats somehow become obsolete? kakashi is fast in his own right, yet he was blitzed even with 3 tomoe sharingan.

and how about his part two feats of being faster than CS sasuke, who i remind you  had speed that blitzed someone with 4.5 speed, and sakura didn't even see sasuke's movements when they met at the beginning of part 2. his seal speed blitzed shaingan, which means normal eyes won't even be able to see them, jiraiyas eyes included so he won't even see when he gets hit with an exploding bunshin. 

i don't know where the myth that HM jiraiya is a speed demon came from. but he hasn't shown any speed feats that even hint that he's in the same league as people like itachi,  raikage, or gai in speed. the manga and databook has praised their speed. never was jiraiya labeled as super fast.


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## Federer (Dec 25, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Inu.
> 
> _Provide me with 1 speed feat Itachi has that can outmatch those I provided._
> 
> ...



Itachi in a terrible condition was faster than Sasuke, who had the CS + Orochimaru to back-up his own strength.


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## David (Dec 25, 2009)

Before I answer, I'd like you to point out that neither of you have provided me with a single link.


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## Federer (Dec 25, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Before I answer, I'd like you to point out that neither of you have provided me with a single link.



Reading the manga, before discussing in a thread is a free suggestion from me. 

Itachi clearly created a clone, while throwing several shuriken against Sasuke in point blank range, and it wasn't a genjutsu. 

But as generous as I am, I will provide you a link, just hold on.

Edit:


*Spoiler*: __ 
















And to good thing is, it wasn't a genjutsu at all. Since the shuriken were still on the floor even after their genjutsu fight and prior their ninjutsu fight.

Sasuke, who's speed impressed Deidara and Orochimaru, two Kage level shinobi, had trouble to keep up with Itachi, who was sick, and should have have been faster, according to Zetsu.


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## ? (Dec 25, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Before I answer, I'd like you to point out that neither of you have provided me with a single link.


do i have to go find a link? do you not remember any of the things listed? i really don't feel like finding a link at the moment, but i will find one later for you, if it's that important.


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## David (Dec 25, 2009)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> Reading the manga, before discussing in a thread is a free suggestion from me.
> 
> Itachi clearly created a clone, while throwing several shuriken against Sasuke in point blank range, and it wasn't a genjutsu.
> 
> But as generous as I am, I will provide you a link, just hold on.



Eh, I don't mean to piss you off, but I meant to a link to a Shunshin or something.

I know Itachi has unmatched seal speed and is incredible in his use of shuriken, but I was thinking of something like him covering a good distance in a short amount of time.

*Edit:* I'm grateful, though, for any time you spend debating with me.


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## ss4 Gogeta (Dec 25, 2009)

itachi no dout


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## ? (Dec 25, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Eh, I don't mean to piss you off, but I meant to a link to a Shunshin or something.
> 
> I know Itachi has unmatched seal speed and is incredible in his use of shuriken, but I was thinking of something like him covering a good distance in a short amount of time.
> 
> *Edit:* I'm grateful, though, for any time you spend debating with me.


heres your speed feats david.














just a few i could find for now


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## Kanki (Dec 25, 2009)

For me the whole Itachi vs Jiraiya debate comes down to whether or not Jiraiya has the time to get into SM, but seeing as he's already in SM when this fight begins I say Jiraiya...


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2009)

Jiraiya can't look at Itachi's eyes, he can't look at Itachi's fingers, and he has to do both without knowledge. If he does, _Tsukiyomi_ ends the match. If Itachi creates a _Karasu Bunshin_ then he has to avoid looking at a crow. Being in Genjutsu for a moment opens you up to the nearly instantaneous _Amatarasu_. Ma and Pa were shown, against Pein, to not be connected to Jiraiya's chakra.

Jiraiya has to dodge _Amatarasu_ like the Raikage, but unlike the Raikage, Jiraiya lacks the ability to stare in to the Mangyekou, he lacks knowledge on how _Amatarasu_ is performed, he lacks preparation, he lacks _Sharingan_ or _Shrouded_ reflexes, he lacks a super _shunshin_, and he lacks Itachi's bleeding heart or Orochimaru's incredible replacement jutsu if you feel like arguing.

Jiraiya has nothing to counter _Susano_ unless you really believe _Yomi Numa_ could have worked on Pein let alone a ninja who is arguably more intelligent, more cautious, and more skilled than Pein. You have to pretend that _Susano_ is slow despite Orochimaru not even registering the blow or it dicing off eight hydra heads incredibly quickly. You also have to pretend that Jiraiya, while looking at Itachi's feet to avoid Genjutsu, can avoid all of this and _Amatarasu_. 

Then, you have to ask yourself which ninja is smarter, who will outmaneuver the other? Most people should agree that Itachi is the smarter of the two and, as seen above, has every advantage in this battle. This battle will not take long, Itachi isn't aiming to exhaust Jiraiya so that he can exorcise Orochimaru, no, he'll be going for the kill and he certainly possesses the arsenal to do so.

Of the two ninjas, Itachi has better speed feats and also has the higher statistic in the databook. Even if Jiraiya were faster as some insist, which is he isn't, then Itachi possesses the greatest tool against fast opponents: his Sharingan. Itachi should have the considerable edge in this department as well.


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## God (Dec 26, 2009)

Jiraiya with the speedblitz.


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## Kanki (Dec 26, 2009)

Yu don't need to look into someone's eye to know how to punch/kick someone (which is taijutsu in it's most simple form).


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2009)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Yu don't need to look into someone's eye to know how to punch/kick someone (which is taijutsu in it's most simple form).



Being unable to even briefly glance at an opponent's hands or eyes is a monstrous handicap. Considering that this opponent is faster, smarter, can predict movements, and can shoot flames from his eyes: the match is sealed.


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## Sanbi (Dec 26, 2009)

This is much closer than it appears to be. Almost 50/50. I would give a slight edge to Jiraiya though, if only barely. I will post my (long) analysis later.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2009)

Sanbi said:


> This is much closer than it appears to be. Almost 50/50. I would give a slight edge to Jiraiya though, if only barely. I will post my (long) analysis later.



I hope you're not saying this in to response to the actual original post. If Jiraiya lacks all knowledge then _Tsukiyomi_ ends this quickly. But I'm looking forward to see how you analyze Jiraiya taking this without for a moment glancing along Itachi's hands or eyes and what Itachi is standing there doing. In fact, I would appreciate you responding to post 594. I'm wondering what I'm missing.


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## Sanbi (Dec 27, 2009)

I won't disappoint you Illusory, I promise. 

Also, why would Itachi cast _Tsukiyomi_ when IC?

I'm done for today, I need a break for a little while.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2009)

Sanbi said:


> Also, why would Itachi cast _Tsukiyomi_ when IC?



Why wouldn't he cast it while in character? Unless the basis of saying that Jiraiya has the slight edge in this battle is that Itachi doesn't want to harm him to begin with? Itachi always engages in Genjutsu immediately.


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## ConsumedByDarkness (Dec 27, 2009)

if he has no knownledge of itachi's sharingan abilities i think that itachi would win even if he does'nt know of jiriya's abilities. with his speed and sharingan i think itachi has the advantage in this fight.


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## Sanbi (Dec 27, 2009)

Don't worry I have a response to everything, I just can't write it all now. 

I agree he engages with genjutsu always, but not always _Tsukiyomi _ at the beginning.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 27, 2009)

godtachi said:


> Itachi absolutely rapestomps Jiraiya:
> 1.Tsukiyomi :I really like the arguments that say Jiraiya has more will power than pre-skip kakashi(did soemthing change between part 1 and part 2,anyway ).Kakashi has seen his best friend killed and he turned his sadness into power,the will power kakashi showed agaisnt pain is probably on the same level on what Jiriaya did against the same pain;Assuming Jiraiya can somehow withstand Tsukiyomi is utter bullshit,especially with Itachi having killing intent
> 2.Amaterasu:Guys who think Itachi will be fooled by some KB are really laughable.Jiraiya is no Itachi,his KB are not cast fast enough to fool a sharingan user;and Itachi won't use ama until he's sure he's against the right one.And there,game over.HM Jiriaya has no speed feat(the thing with sandals falling is mostly a strenght feat)that put him on the level of raikage,so he's burnt like everyone else who is not fast enough to dodge it.
> 3.Susanoo need to resort to susanoo,since the two previous technique are more than enough to deal with someone on Jiraiya's level,but if somehow HM jiraiya magically could avoid them(which is impossibe,unless itachi decides to use susanoo first),he's dead here


Interesting post, if you take away their hax, Jiraiya rapestomps.


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## Kanki (Dec 27, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Being unable to even briefly glance at an opponent's hands or eyes is a monstrous handicap. Considering that this opponent is faster, smarter, can predict movements, and can shoot flames from his eyes: the match is sealed.



Is Itachi smarter than Jiraiya + Ma + Pa though?

The eye contact is a big problem, and tbh I'm always changing my mind on this topic, but Itachi has Tsukyomi in his eft eye, if Jiraiya looks into his right eye does it have the same affect as him looking into the left eye?

If it doesn't then really it's a 50-50 fight.

Jiraiya in SM is quicker than Itachi, and just because Itachi can predict movements doesn't mean he has the time to counter them.

To be honest, now that I'm saying this I do think that without knowledge Itachi > SM Jiraiya, though with knowledge (for both) SM Jiraiya > Itachi.

I'll probably change my mind later though


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## Federer (Dec 27, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Interesting post, if you take away their hax, Jiraiya rapestomps.



Rapestomps?

My god, the fanboyism in this thread gets ridiculously, from both sides. I'm pretty sure the manga hints that Itachi is superior than Jiraiya. 

J-man is a goofball, who dances around, brags about his abilities, that he's the Hermit of Myōbokuzan bla bla bla. 

This is all IC, he does that and the following happens. 

Jiraiya realises he's right now somewhere else, Itachi is nowhere around. A man comes to him.



> Jiraiya: "Who's there"?
> Man: "  "
> Jiraiya: "You are not Itachi, who are you?"
> Man: "I'm God......I mean Rikudou"
> ...



Something like that is most likely to happen instead of Jiraiya actually winning against Itachi.


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## Kanki (Dec 27, 2009)

2 quick questions:

1. Can Itachi move when using Tsukyomi (I know it's only a few seconds, but still)

2. If Jiraiya is under Tsukyomi, can Ma and Pa still fight?

If so I'm sure they could crack open a decent jutsu when Itachi is standing still...


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## Sadgoob (Jan 2, 2010)

_I'll be assuming Jiraiya has *full* knowledge, and *starts* in Hermit Mode. Two crushing advantages, but he needs them even for a sick Itachi._

*Close Range Clench*

_If you're not assuming that Itachi can bend Amatarasu like Sasuke, you shouldn't assume Jiraiya has Frog Katas like Naruto. Itachi and Jiraiya have equal Taijutsu proficiency, along with Neji. Itachi is faster, but Jiraiya likely scrapes in to tier 5 as well in Hermit Mode. However, Itachi also possesses the Sharingan, which has been shown to be amazing against *much* faster opponents let alone someone who is likely only slightly faster. In either case, I shall show below why Jiraiya does *not* want to go close range to Itachi._ 

*Itachi's Genjutsu Offense*


*Spoiler*: __ 





Juracule Mihawk said:


> They are giving him nature energy, not sage chakra. Jiraiya does create it.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





Juracule Mihawk said:


> Why do people think that SM Jiraiya shares 1 chakra network with Fukasaku and Shima, it doesn't make sense, it's even IMPOSSIBLE.
> 
> Fukasaku already told us that it was *impossible to gather nature energy and fight at the same time. **You can't gather nature energy and walk at the same time. *
> 
> ...






_As you can see, Jiraiya is far from safe from Genjutsu in Hermit Mode. Rather, common sense and the databook suggest that he is in exponential danger. More than a few moments of being in Genjutsu, with Ma and Pa collecting raw natural energy for him to synthesize, will likely result in him turning in to a statue. Furthermore, Ma and Pa are obviously not connected to the network nor can they automatically tell when Jiraiya's chakra is being tinkered with. But aside from all that, Doujutsu has shown to effect multiple people. Ma, Pa, and Jiraiya could all be caught by a single pair of eyes, and Itachi's clones have been shown to use Genjutsu as well. When combined with Itachi's speed or a simple Amatarasu, the match ends quickly. Furthermore, Jiraiya has no knowledge of finger Genjutsu or Karasu Genjutsu, which may paralyze him for the moments needed to land Amatarasu or an alternate attack, and it's unlikely that he has developed the method of watching an opponent's feet and fighting. Although this is a problem as, if you're looking at Itachi's feet, you won't see Amatarasu coming at you. Many people believe that Jiraiya's strong body, after fighting Pein with an arm torn off, equates to a defense against Tsukiyomi. The below databook entries disproves this._


*Spoiler*: _Databook_ 







> Konoha One Hundred Leaves Collection ~ Number Forty-Three
> 
> | The Solution to the Common Traits of Genjutsu |
> 
> ...





			
				Databook said:
			
		

> NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none
> 
> ...






*Itachi's "Unavoidable" Amatarasu*

_Many people enjoy the Raikage's feat. However, if you return to the chapter (463), you'll notice several key factors he possessed that Jiraiya lacks. First, he can look Sasuke in the Mangyekou in order to react to the emerging flame. Something Jiraiya certainly can not do. Secondly, he had knowledge on how the attack was performed according to Shi. Jiraiya knows about the strength of the flames, but he does not know that they emerge from the eyes. Third, Raikage was preparing for it, as Shi stated, by maintaining his Shroud at its highest stage. This gave him unmatched reflexes, reflexes Jiraiya lacks, and incredible speed. As you can see, Jiraiya lacks everything needed to avoid a close range Amatarasu. If Itachi is ever within fifteen feet of him, it likely ends there._

*Jiraiya's Frog Song*

_Its range seems to be limited as the second three Pein bodies were summoned before the first three were captured yet they weren't effected. Secondly, it takes a great deal of time and Itachi has many methods of landing blows or Genjutsu to halt the jutsu well before it's finished. Third, a mastered Sharingan is the highest level of Genjutsu defense, along with a mastered Bijuu, and he may well be able to break it or even reflect it back on to Jiraiya with Mirror Heaven and Earth Change. In my opinion, assuming Jiraiya can perform a very lengthy Genjutsu that a Genjutsu god master can not counter while also assuming he and his summons fights this entire battle staring at Itachi's feet, avoiding crows, and never allowing him to close range, is a ridiculous thing to do._

*Jiraiya Summons, Itachi's Susano*

_Well, we've seen what Susano does to big summons. It cleaves them apart instantly. Considering that Itachi likely hasn't used a Mangyekou technique in this scenario then, even while sick, he has plenty of stamina left, and here Jiraiya will do one of two things. He'll flee, at which point Itachi banishes Susano, something that is evidently easy to do if Sasuke is anything to go by, or he'll charge and finally meet the Sword of Totsuka, Amatarasu, Genjutsu, etc._

*Yomi Numa*

_It has no feats and no hype. Nothing indicates it can kill elite shinobi or that Susano (a floating spirit itself) is unable to pull Itachi out._


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## EJ (Jan 2, 2010)

How can Itachi defeat Orochimaru and not defeat Jirayia?

I know A > B > C logic does not work in this manga, but there is a limit to how powerful someones opponent could be for them to win regardless of who it is.


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## Metaphor (Jan 2, 2010)

Itachi takes it.  There's too much in his arsenal: amaterasu, susano'o, etc.  I also don't see him getting hit with frog song.  The only reason it worked on Pain was because of the pipes.


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## Dexion (Jan 2, 2010)

^The pipes had nothing to do with it. It just allowed Jiraiya to hide his position long enough for him to use it. But recently frog song can happen instantly as seen when Ma and Pa used it while fighting Pain.


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## Soul (Jan 3, 2010)

Kakashi Is God said:


> 1. Can Itachi move when using Tsukyomi (I know it's only a few seconds, but still)



He has no indicator of being restricted to being still + he has used Amaterasu while running; I would say yes.



> 2. If Jiraiya is under Tsukyomi, can Ma and Pa still fight?



Tsukuyomi is almost instantaneous; this question is irrelevant: If Jiraiya gets trapped by Tsukuyomi, this is over.



Griever said:


> Itachi uses susanno..
> 
> 
> 
> Then what?.



Yata's Mirror protects every attack.
You are just assuming that the Swamp would work since it makes sense in real life.

Why Itachi couldn't walk with chakra on his feet, like he does with water.

Most likely, it would only need a more precise chakra control.



> Well, putting that aside i'd say this fight is more of a draw, In HM Jiraiya has Ma and pa to break out of genjutsu



How?



> With Amaterasu Jiraiya could use his hair jutsu to block



And then Amaterasu would keep burning; what's your point?



Cubey said:


> Jiraiya with the speedblitz.







Mist Puppet said:


> So Jiraiya, who has more willpower than *PRE-SKIP* Kakashi (he fought with one arm in HM mode), is going to be defeated by one Tsukiyomi?



Yes; and easily, if I shall add.


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## Kanki (Jan 3, 2010)

Espionage said:


> How can Itachi defeat Orochimaru and not defeat Jirayia?
> 
> I know A > B > C logic does not work in this manga, but there is a limit to how powerful someones opponent could be for them to win regardless of who it is.



1. Itachi is stronger than Oro, but only by a few points (in my opinion).

2. Jiraiya is also stronger than Oro (again by a few points, IMO).

3. Itachi is the 100% *PERFECT* counter to Oro. Sakenagi Longsword again is the perfect counter to Oro's Kusanagi Sword.

That is why Itachi raped Oro. The first time they 'fought', Itachi caught him in a genjutsu, but still it didn't kill Oro, as the only way he can die is if he is sealed away. Oro wasn't fighting to kill either.

Itachi vs Orochimaru has made people think wrongly. Sure Itachi is stronger than Oro, but judging by the fact that he's wiped the floor with him twice, people think that he is a million levels higher than him. He's not. He's at a higher level (though not a landslide) and also is the perfect match against him. Combign the two and you have a rape session. It doesn't show the true difference between the two in strength though.


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## ? (Jan 3, 2010)

the solution to the swamp is sealing it with the totsuka sword. jiraiyas 'trump card' has been defeated.


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## Lord Potato (Jan 3, 2010)

This is ridiculous.. sorry but I'll have to go with Itachi here hands down. Tsukuyomi CAN KILL, said by Kakashi himself when Itachi trapped him in Tsukuyomi. Kakashi asked himself why Itachi just didn't kill him..

Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi would do the job. If Itachi summons Susano'o, then Jiraiya wouldn't stand a little chance.


We never got to see Itachi using full power, even Madara said Itachi was stronger!

Are people forgetting that Genjutsu WON'T WORK ON ITACHI?

Go to a Narutowikipedia or something, or go to the early episodes. Itachi has a jutsu called "Mirror heaven and earth" technique, NO GENJUTSU WORKS ON ITACHI!

link: 

frog song wont work!
Itachi is simply the strongest ninja ever, why? Ninjutsu won't work on Itachi because of Susano'o and Genjutsu won't work because of mirror heaven and earth. Taijutsu works but Itachi is professional at Taijutsu! Itachi's the most balanced character


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 3, 2010)

Agreed with everything Karl said. Nice find on the Mirror and Heaven Earth Change - technique .

Wasn't Itachi moving in Jiraiya's stomach when he used Amaterasu to escape?...


And what the hell is Ma and Pa about? Can't Itachi just kill them? You all make them sound invincible... well let me tell you something: Itachi can kill the frogs AND Itachi's the one who's invincible.

Itachi wins without many troubles. He would probably defeat Jiraiya as fast as Orochimaru, lol.


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## Mr hunt (Jan 3, 2010)

Like everyone has been saying 4 years to the small amount of jiraiya fans compared to 95% of naruto fans in the real world and not the net itachi wins and it's not even a contest nor should it even have been discussed since the beginning. Jiraiya wasn't even the strongest on his dam team. Close this thread it was never a debate.


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## EJ (Jan 3, 2010)

Kakashi Is God said:


> 1. Itachi is stronger than Oro, but only by a few points (in my opinion).



But opinions do not matter.

It didn't look as much as a fight. Just Orochimaru losing horribly.




> 2. Jiraiya is also stronger than Oro (again by a few points, IMO).



Orochimaru through out the manga has been hinted to > Jirayia.




> 3. Itachi is the 100% *PERFECT* counter to Oro. Sakenagi Longsword again is the perfect counter to Oro's Kusanagi Sword.



Sure



> That is why Itachi raped Oro. The first time they 'fought', Itachi caught him in a genjutsu, but still it didn't kill Oro, as the only way he can die is if he is sealed away. Oro wasn't fighting to kill either.




No, Orochimaru _admitted _ in part one that he was weaker then Itachi. Plain and simple.


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## Kanki (Jan 3, 2010)

Espionage said:


> But opinions do not matter.
> 
> It didn't look as much as a fight. Just Orochimaru losing horribly.



Which is why I said Itachi is the perfect counter to Oro. The only way Oro can die is by being sealed. Itachi is one of the few who has a jutsu that can seal others. Oto didn't even try to avoid the sword, because he knows physical attacks won't hurt him.

If you put Jiraiya in the same situation he would have dodged it.

This is what I'm saying. Itachi's beating of Oro has clouded a lot of opinions.

Hell Kakashi would have a harder time in trying to beat Konohamaru than Itachi would to beat Oro. It's not a fair measuring stick. Itachi has the perfecdt tools to beat Oro.





Espionage said:


> Orochimaru through out the manga has been hinted to > Jirayia.



Not really.

He was the natural genious, but hey so is Sasuke, yet many think (including me) than Naruto>Sasuke.

The fought once, but it's harder to fight with the aim of bringing someone back as it is to fight to kill.

When the 3 Sannin fought I think that Jiraiya was in a worse state than Oro. Oro couldn't use arms, but he could run, use his sword ect, while Jiraiya couldn't even do basic Ninjutsu (at first).

You try putting your hands behond your back, and fight someone who struggles to even walk properly. I'd rather be in your shoes. (for the record, I think Tsunade has it worse than both Oro and Jiraiya)





Espionage said:


> Sure









Espionage said:


> No, Orochimaru _admitted _ in part one that he was weaker then Itachi. Plain and simple.



I have never suggested otherwise :S


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## EJ (Jan 3, 2010)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Which is why I said Itachi is the perfect counter to Oro. The only way Oro can die is by being sealed.



Or by chakra depletion, while being killed in any lethal way.

Being sealed is not the only way Orochimaru can be killed.


> Itachi is one of the few who has a jutsu that can seal others. Oto didn't even try to avoid the sword, because he knows physical attacks won't hurt him.



This is pure speculation.

From what we saw, Orochimaru was stunned that he was hit. The "?" at the end of his dialogue proves this.




> This is what I'm saying. Itachi's beating of Oro has clouded a lot of opinions.



Defeating Orochimaru twice, both without really trying.

Another while he was sick, blind, coughing out blood, life force being drained away..





> When the 3 Sannin fought I think that Jiraiya was in a worse state than Oro. Oro couldn't use arms, but he could run, use his sword ect, while Jiraiya couldn't even do basic Ninjutsu (at first).
> 
> 
> You try putting your hands behond your back, and fight someone who struggles to even walk properly. I'd rather be in your shoes. (for the record, I think Tsunade has it worse than both Oro and Jiraiya)



Let me ask you something,

You said yourself that Itachi is the perfect counter to Orochimaru.

Now please tell me, how is Jirayia in any way a counter towards Orochimaru?




> I have never suggested otherwise :S



 If you we're saying that Itachi was stronger to Orochimaru only due to Orochimaru wanting to take his body and not wanting to harm it, I typed that to prove you wrong.


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## Kanki (Jan 3, 2010)

Espionage said:


> Or by chakra depletion, while being killed in any lethal way.



That's a good shout. 



Espionage said:


> Being sealed is not the only way Orochimaru can be killed.



I'm sure I read on here that the databook said the only way he can be killed is via a seal.

I know the databook isn't 100% fact but that is pretty categoric from Kishi.



Espionage said:


> From what we saw, Orochimaru was stunned that he was hit. The "?" at the end of his dialogue proves this..



"You don't really think a little cut like this will be enough to stop me.........!!!!"

The "!!!" came when he felt he was being sealed away.





Espionage said:


> Defeating Orochimaru twice, both without really trying.



Again, because Itachi had the 1 thing that counter's Oro's sword with ease. First time yeah he got him, but he didn't kill him, he would have needed Susanoo for that (which goes back to Itachi being a great counter to Oro)



Espionage said:


> Another while he was sick, blind, coughing out blood, life force being drained away..



See above.






Espionage said:


> Let me ask you something,
> 
> You said yourself that Itachi is the perfect counter to Orochimaru.
> 
> Now please tell me, how is Jirayia in any way a counter towards Orochimaru?



I don't think Jiraiya is an amazing counter against Oro.

I think that:

Itachi>Oro
Jiraiya>Oro

But Itachi has the perfect tools, which makes it >>>>>. It's not a true reflection of the difference in strength between the two though.





Espionage said:


> If you we're saying that Itachi was stronger to Orochimaru only due to Orochimaru wanting to take his body and not wanting to harm it, I typed that to prove you wrong.



I wasn't.

Itachi IS strogner than Oro (fact), but with the way he has beat him you would think he is a million levels stronger than Oro. He isn't.

He is a stronger ninja, who's style perfectly cpunter's Oro's style. That's what makes it a rape.

Pein for instance would have a much harder job beating Oro than Itachi, yet in my opinion Pain>Itachi.

For the record Jiraiya, Oro and Itachi are 3 of my 5 faviorite characters (along with Asuma and Kakashi), so I'm no fanboy  of any individual here


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## EJ (Jan 3, 2010)

Kakashi Is God said:


> I'm sure I read on here that the databook said the only way he can be killed is via a seal.
> 
> I know the databook isn't 100% fact but that is pretty categoric from Kishi.




It also states that Ameratasu burns as hot as the sun.


The databook has also stated that Itachi is invincible with Susanno and the add ons.

If we're using databook quotes such as these, what is the point of even debating? Itachi >  HM Jirayia simply  because he has Susanno along with the add ons.



> "You don't really think a little cut like this will be enough to stop me.........!!!!"
> 
> The "!!!" came when he felt he was being sealed away.






"You?"

He didn't expect the sword to hit him.

Again, because Itachi had the 1 thing that counter's Oro's sword with ease. First time yeah he got him, but he didn't kill him, he would have needed Susanoo for that (which goes back to Itachi being a great counter to Oro)








> I don't think Jiraiya is an amazing counter against Oro.
> 
> I think that:
> 
> ...



You stated before that the only way Orochimaru could be killed is by being sealed. So what made you believe that Jirayia is stronger then Orochimaru?



> But Itachi has the perfect tools, which makes it >>>>>. It's not a true reflection of the difference in strength between the two though.



Yes, Itachi is simply stronger then both Jirayia and Orochimaru.


What exactly does Jirayia have to counter MS? He is not a taijutsu specialist like Gai, so I doubt he has trained himself to 'look at the users feet'.

HM Jirayia could probably avoid Ameratasu, but that being spammed, exploding clones, Gen-Jutsu, that is way too much for even him to handle.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Hermit Mode, GG. 
see how inane that is? In this mode, Jiraiya is faster, stronger, pretty much Genjutsu immune thanks to Fukasaku and Shima, well known use Bunshin feints and one punch will kill Itachi


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## sasuke uciha boy (May 23, 2010)

Itachi pwns with medium  difficallity
Amaterasu GG
Susanoo GG
tsukuyomi GG


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2010)

I think after seeing the extend of the abilities of Susano'o, this match up can no longer be debated. Even if we assume that Jiraiya can magically avoid Tsukiyomi and Amataresu, he has no answer for Susano'o and once Susano'o is out he is dead meat.


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## Soul (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> see how inane that is? In this mode, Jiraiya is faster, stronger, pretty much Genjutsu immune thanks to Fukasaku and Shima, well known use Bunshin feints and one punch will kill Itachi



Proof that Ma and Pa make Genjutsu useless??
Also, Jiraiya has no answer to Susano'o.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Given Chou Oodama Rasengan's power, a blow to Susanoo's back might break through, given how strong it's said to be.

And Ma and Pa are perpetually pumping Senjutsu into Jiraiya. How is Genjutsu broken?


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## Vergil642 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Given Chou Oodama Rasengan's power, a blow to Susanoo's back might break through, given how strong it's said to be.
> 
> And Ma and Pa are perpetually pumping Senjutsu into Jiraiya. How is Genjutsu broken?



Chou Oodama Rasengan's not shown the power to hollow out a mountain. It's just the common DB hyperbole we always get. If it's got as much power as Kirin (it hasn't) it could break Susanoo if Itachi just starts forming it in the instant before being hit.

Genjutsu is broken by chakra being disrupted. If Ni Dai Sennin disrupted Jiraiya's chakra while pumping him with Sage Chakra then he'd not be able to utilise jutsu (his chakra after all would be too busy being screwed with to do so). They can obviously, consciously break Jiraiya out of Genjutsu through the partner method, although this doesn't make Genjutsu wholly impotent as they have to realise Jiraiya's under the Genjutsu first (which could be quite difficult if Itachi makes the Genjutsu very realistic).

And Tsukuyomi still takes Jiraiya down.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Jiraiya has SENJUTSU chakra constantly flowing into him, which'll disrupt any genjutsu tried. And any Genjutus they try, fukasaku and Shima can realize and instantly disrupt it.

Jiraiya's too fast in HM to be nailed with a Tsukuyomi anyways. And oh, look crying 'databook hyperbole' when it suits the argument that's pro-Uchiha.

Shame Kirin broke Susanoo, without any proof it was just 'partially' formed, right? I mean, Sasuke's shown he can call it up instantly in its full form, but clearly Itachi cannot


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya has SENJUTSU chakra constantly flowing into him, which'll disrupt any genjutsu tried. And any Genjutus they try, fukasaku and Shima can realize and instantly disrupt it.
> 
> Jiraiya's too fast in HM to be nailed with a Tsukuyomi anyways. And oh, look crying 'databook hyperbole' when it suits the argument that's pro-Uchiha.
> 
> Shame Kirin broke Susanoo, without any proof it was just 'partially' formed, right? I mean, Sasuke's shown he can call it up instantly in its full form, but clearly Itachi cannot



No to disrupt tsukiyomi they would have to completley disrupt jiraiyas chakra, and if they do that it would render him immobile while there doing it. 

Also this is all based on the fact that ma and pa will be fast enough to break jiraiya out of tsukiyomi which i highly doubt.

Same old assumptions and even if we take them seriously kirin> any ninjutsu jiraiya has at his disposal. not being bias but its just the truth, kirin is actual lightning from the sky jiraiya doesnt have anything equivilant to that.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Yeah, Jiraiya doesn't need to bother with setting it up when he can apparently make something as strong with zero prep time.
Plus he's faster and knows to avoid Itachi's eye contact


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya has SENJUTSU chakra constantly flowing into him, which'll disrupt any genjutsu tried. And any Genjutus they try, fukasaku and Shima can realize and instantly disrupt it.



Wrong, they are drawing in nature energy and Jiraiya converts it into chakra. Nature energy = / = chakra thus it has no chakra disrupting effects.




> Jiraiya's too fast in HM to be nailed with a Tsukuyomi anyways. And oh, look crying 'databook hyperbole' when it suits the argument that's pro-Uchiha.


too fast to be nailed ? I really would want to see Jiraiya's speed feats. Show me a speed feat of Jiraiya in hm which would allow him to blitz Itachi.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, Jiraiya doesn't need to bother with setting it up when he can apparently make something as strong with zero prep time.
> Plus he's faster and knows to avoid Itachi's eye contact



i realy hope ur not talking about frog song although it is powerful it requires alot of prep time.

But theres no evidence that shows he can fight suffentcialy while watching the opponents feet.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

*As strong as Kirin  referring to chou Oodama Rasengan which the databook says cna destroy a mountain when it lands

And what about feet? He just needs to watch his legs and body like Kakashi could, and the others. Even Sakura knew that method He's fast enough for that. 



> Wrong, they are drawing in nature energy and Jiraiya converts it into chakra. Nature energy = / = chakra thus it has no chakra disrupting effects.



So being drawn in and converted, consistently disrupting chakra, with Shima and Fukasaku always placing more in. K



> too fast to be nailed ? I really would want to see Jiraiya's speed feats. Show me a speed feat of Jiraiya in hm which would allow him to blitz Itachi.


Don't play this. In his base, Jiraiya has a 4.5 in speed, which is massively enhanced with Sennin Mode. Not to mention his Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu. 

And he's got essentially unlimited stamina where Itachi has paltry. What'll Itachi do precisely if Jiraiya just makes a seal to do Yomi Numa right there?


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> *As strong as Kirin  referring to chou Oodama Rasengan which the databook says cna destroy a mountain when it lands
> 
> And what about feet? He just needs to watch his legs and body like Kakashi could, and the others. Even Sakura knew that method He's fast enough for that.
> 
> ...



ohh thank god lol i was about to say, anyway what makes you believe jiraiya's rasengon is as powerful as lightning? hollowing out a mountain isnt enough evidence, especially when it's never been shown and in anycase kirin is wayy faster then rasengon, itachi can likley see jiraiya using rasengon and tag him with the sword of totsuka when he's trying to use it.

and converting chakra doesnt = disrupting it, if jiraiya's chakra was being disrupted he wouldnt be able to move properly, remember why naruto couldnt walk on water?

 i can see tsukiyomi downing jiraiya, maybe then ma n pa will defend his body, but in anycase there's no proof to suggest jiraiya can break out of tsukiyomi and knowing the method and being proficient at it are 2 very different things, kakashi knows rasengon do we see him using it ? nope and we know why. so just because jiraiya knows not to look at his feet and body doesnt mean he will be able to fight efficiently.


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## Respite (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, Jiraiya doesn't need to bother with setting it up when he can apparently make something as strong with zero prep time.
> Plus he's faster and knows to avoid Itachi's eye contact



You do know that itachi can put up Suasnoo faster then lightning strikes right ?


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> ohh thank god lol i was about to say, anyway what makes you believe jiraiya's rasengon is as powerful as lightning? hollowing out a mountain isnt enough evidence, especially when it's never been shown and in anycase kirin is wayy faster then rasengon, itachi can likley see jiraiya using rasengon and tag him with the sword of totsuka when he's trying to use it.


The databook says it can destoy a mountain when it connects and explodes. And evidence the Totsuka can tag someone as fast in Sage Mode Someone paying attention who can sense it an disn't stuck down a snake's throat?
Itachi doesn't use Susanoo like that, btw. 



> and converting chakra doesnt = disrupting it, if jiraiya's chakra was being disrupted he wouldnt be able to move properly, remember why naruto couldnt walk on water?


Yeah, your point?
He's constantly receiving new energy, which kind of interferes with any attempt to control him



> i can see tsukiyomi downing jiraiya, maybe then ma n pa will defend his body, but in anycase there's no proof to suggest jiraiya can break out of tsukiyomi and knowing the method and being proficient at it are 2 very different things, kakashi knows rasengon do we see him using it ? nope and we know why. so just because jiraiya knows not to look at his feet and body doesnt mean he will be able to fight efficiently.



We know that Jiraiya knows Rasengan, point? The point is, Jiraiya was ready to fight Itachi. Specifically. If even Sakura knows how to fight effectively enough only look at someone's body and not their face, which is all you need, you're telling me Jiraiya doesn't? Plus, Shima and Fukasaku can attack as well.
What'll Itachi do against a Frog Croak followed by a Rasengan?


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## Soul (May 23, 2010)

> Lightysnake said:
> 
> 
> > Given Chou Oodama Rasengan's power, a blow to Susanoo's back might break through, given how strong it's said to be.
> ...



Your post is mere speculation.



Lightysnake said:


> The databook says it can destoy a mountain when it connects and explodes



The Databook says that Susano'o is completely invincible.
What's your point?


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Like most arguments made here. I doubt you'd be complaining if speculation fell on the side of the argument you happened to support


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## Soul (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Like most arguments made here.



You are quoting me, not them.
If you want to debate me, stop trying to post speculations as facts.



> I doubt you'd be complaining if speculation fell on the side of the argument you happened to support



Why would I? It's your concern that they are saying things without sense to your fandom 

Also, why do you think that I am not addressing them?

If you are going to quote me, at least make it worthwhile.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> The databook says it can destoy a mountain when it connects and explodes. And evidence the Totsuka can tag someone as fast in Sage Mode Someone paying attention who can sense it an disn't stuck down a snake's throat?
> Itachi doesn't use Susanoo like that, btw.



when jiraiya uses the chou rasengon he jumps, you seen the manga, all itachi has to do is defend with the shield and slash jiraiya mid air and its over. Itachi guarded against oro's hydra techniqe then followed up with a slash so it is ic


Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, your point?
> He's constantly receiving new energy, which kind of interferes with any attempt to control him



recieving energy and a outside source disrupted your chakra are still 2 different things, the hachibi was constantly giving bee energy but he still was caught in sasuke's genjutsu it took a short moment for the hachibi to break him out, with jiraiya its the same thing , the frogs will have to break him out.



Lightysnake said:


> We know that Jiraiya knows Rasengan, point? The point is, Jiraiya was ready to fight Itachi. Specifically. If even Sakura knows how to fight effectively enough only look at someone's body and not their face, which is all you need, you're telling me Jiraiya doesn't? Plus, Shima and Fukasaku can attack as well.
> What'll Itachi do against a Frog Croak followed by a Rasengan?



the point was knowing something doesnt mean your proficient at it 

jiraiya was ready to fight itachi and? so was naruto 

can you provide scans of sakura fighting like that?

and fuma and shika is also a weakness because if itachi tsukiyomi's one of them jiraiya hermit mode will hault.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> You are quoting me, not them.
> If you want to debate me, stop trying to post speculations as facts.


Pot. Kettle.




> Why would I?


So, let's throw a hearty dose of hypocrisy into the mix, shall we?



> when jiraiya uses the chou rasengon he jumps, you seen the manga, all itachi has to do is defend with the shield and slash jiraiya mid air and its over. Itachi guarded against oro's hydra techniqe then followed up with a slash so it is ic



Sure as hell ain't IC for Itachi to use Susanoo like that. He only used it with Kirin
And Jiraiya jumped once with the Rasengan meaning he does it every time? We've seen him use Rasengans before while not jumping.
This of course means Itachi can react fast enough as Jiraiya won't monologue for him.



> recieving energy and a outside source disrupted your chakra are still 2 different things, the hachibi was constantly giving bee energy but he still was caught in sasuke's genjutsu it took a short moment for the hachibi to break him out, with jiraiya its the same thing , the frogs will have to break him out.


'constantly' giving Bee energy? no mroe than the KYuubi does for Naruto. The Hachibi gives him energy *when he asks*

Besides, Jiraiya in base can arguably resist Genjutsu well enough. Amplified in Sage Mode?



> the point was knowing something doesnt mean your proficient at it
> 
> jiraiya was ready to fight itachi and? so was naruto


Except Jiraiya is



> can you provide scans of sakura fighting like that?


Look at the fight: Kakashi told them what to do, nobody argued they didn't know how.



> and fuma and shika is also a weakness because if itachi tsukiyomi's one of them jiraiya hermit mode will hault.


The other will still keep him going. And that's kind of a big if with how these three fight.

How'll Itachi defend against frog croak or Yomi Numa besides?


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## Vergil642 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya has SENJUTSU chakra constantly flowing into him, which'll disrupt any genjutsu tried. And any Genjutus they try, fukasaku and Shima can realize and instantly disrupt it.
> 
> Jiraiya's too fast in HM to be nailed with a Tsukuyomi anyways. And oh, look crying 'databook hyperbole' when it suits the argument that's pro-Uchiha.
> 
> Shame Kirin broke Susanoo, without any proof it was just 'partially' formed, right? I mean, Sasuke's shown he can call it up instantly in its full form, but clearly Itachi cannot



He has Sage chakra actually, but regardless of what name you use it has no magical anti-Genjutsu properties. And again, pumping it/nature energy into Jiraiya won't do anything to disrupt his chakra. If it did he'd not be able to use it as as Pain showed when he was messing Jiraiya's chakra up. Ni Dai Sennin also have to realise Jiraiya's in a Genjutsu. If he gives no indication then it's going to be rather difficult to realise it.

Since when did speed make you immune to Genjutsu? Let alone something like Tsukuyomi.

I'm not sure what you're implying by the databook hyperbole bit though. I tend to avoid using DB descriptions and haven't seen many people argue seriously things like "Amaterasu is as hot as the sun" for awhile now. Perhaps you should keep up with the times and use something new to insult those debating you?

And as for Kirin breaking Susanoo, unless you think that Itachi can fully summon it within microseconds it clearly wasn't fully formed when struck. Sasuke summoning it "instantly" wasn't contending with the very literally imminent strike of a bolt of super lightning when he did so; we have no way to tell just how fast he summoned it fully. We have good reason to believe Itachi's was not summoned fully however due to the aforementioned problem that it would mean he can summon it fully in microseconds, something never demonstrated before or since.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> He has Sage chakra actually, but regardless of what name you use it has no magical anti-Genjutsu properties. And again, pumping it/nature energy into Jiraiya won't do anything to disrupt his chakra. If it did he'd not be able to use it as as Pain showed when he was messing Jiraiya's chakra up. Ni Dai Sennin also have to realise Jiraiya's in a Genjutsu. If he gives no indication then it's going to be rather difficult to realise it.
> 
> Since when did speed make you immune to Genjutsu? Let alone something like Tsukuyomi.


Pain's chakra physically goes in and Nagato cna control you or paralyze you. Kind of different. Genjutsu is manipulating your own chakra



> I'm not sure what you're implying by the databook hyperbole bit though. I tend to avoid using DB descriptions and haven't seen many people argue seriously things like "Amaterasu is as hot as the sun" for awhile now. Perhaps you should keep up with the times and use something new to insult those debating you?
> And as for Kirin breaking Susanoo, unless you think that Itachi can fully summon it within microseconds it clearly wasn't fully formed when struck. Sasuke summoning it "instantly" wasn't contending with the very literally imminent strike of a bolt of super lightning when he did so; we have no way to tell just how fast he summoned it fully. We have good reason to believe Itachi's was not summoned fully however due to the aforementioned problem that it would mean he can summon it fully in microseconds, something never demonstrated before or since.


We have seen whenever a user summons Susanoo instantly, they tend to do it with the most complete form they have. Itachi had plenty of time to prepare with Sasuke's showboating besides

And it states simply that COR can hollow out/obliterate a mountain. That's pretty light. Any reason we should disbelieve it?


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Pain's chakra physically goes in and Nagato cna control you or paralyze you. Kind of different. Genjutsu is manipulating your own chakra
> 
> 
> We have seen whenever a user summons Susanoo instantly, they tend to do it with the most complete form they have. Itachi had plenty of time to prepare with Sasuke's showboating besides
> ...



Factor in the speed of lightning and also factor the fact that sasuke though itachi died, if the big susano formed sasuke would of saw it. it is likley suasno could not form fully due to the speed of kirin.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Factor in that Itachi was standing there listening to Sasuke ramble, which gave him time to prepare.

There was also a large flash of light in the interim, nothing for Sasuke to see. We've seen Sasuke throw up his complete Susanoo instantly. Can Itachi not do the same?


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Factor in that Itachi was standing there listening to Sasuke ramble, which gave him time to prepare.
> 
> There was also a large flash of light in the interim, nothing for Sasuke to see. We've seen Sasuke throw up his complete Susanoo instantly. Can Itachi not do the same?



im well aware but there is no proof u can ready kirin without showing it at all at best itachi could of been preparing to use it but it still require insane speed and timing to use the technique before lightning strikes.

hmm the problem is we have no precise clock for it but ill admit u did just state some food 4 thought


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Yes, and preparing to do it means something. Itachi didn't manage to partially dodge Sasuke's katons, remember?

If you have advance warning, it's easier to put your shield up.


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## Nikushimi (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Given Chou Oodama Rasengan's power, a blow to Susanoo's back might break through, given how strong it's said to be.



Uh........*no*.

Not even. Like I said before, it's ridiculous how many things you think can break a Jutsu stated to make its user completely invincible. Especially since it withstood an attack far more devastating than Chou Oodama Rasengan.



> And Ma and Pa are perpetually pumping Senjutsu into Jiraiya. How is Genjutsu broken?



By injecting chakra to consciously disrupt the Genjutsu. Remember, Genjutsu works by controlling the flow. Even if natural energy can disrupt Genjutsu the way chakra does, it cannot accomplish this by simply augmenting the flow of chakra, which is what the Ni Dai Sennin do with it. I don't doubt they can break Genjutsu from Jiraiya using the partner method, but on some level they have to be aware of the Genjutsu and actually make a concerted effort to disspell it. It doesn't happen simply by an intake of natural energy alone.


Now this match won't end so easily, and because of the starting distance, Sennin Jiraiya has the range advantage. Itachi will need to be careful as he covers the distance to approach Jiraiya, but this will give Jiraiya time to summon at least one of the Gama Trio. As Itachi closes in, Jiraiya will most likely try to keep him at a distance. Something like Senpou: Gouemon would force Itachi to leap into the air to avoid it, only to encounter a swift response from Jiraiya's summoned toad of choice (let's say Gamaken, for consistency). One of several things can happen at this point, with Itachi suspended in mid-air before the giant toad's incoming attack:

1. Itachi can take the hit, and risk being killed. Truthfully, I think there's some chance he would survive it.

2. Itachi can form a clone and throw himself out of the way, like Naruto did against Kakashi during the second bell test.

3. Itachi can pump out Amaterasu to attack Gamaken before Gamaken's hit connects.

4. Itachi can briefly activate Susano'o to protect himself from the attack.

It doesn't really matter which he chooses; all that really changes is the difficulty with which Itachi manages what happens next. What happens next? Well, again, it's one of several possible things:

1. Itachi catches Jiraiya's gaze and hits him with Tsukuyomi. The Ni Dai Sennin have no time to react, and the fight ends.

2. Itachi sights Jiraiya with Amaterasu, catching him and the Ni Dai Sennin in a plume of unquenchable flame.

3. Itachi uses (or maintains if he chose #4 previously) Susano'o, powering through everything Jiraiya and the Ni Dai Sennin throw at him. Using the Yata no Kagami to strike the ground, he forces Jiraiya airborne, where he is pierced with the Totsuka no Tsurugi and sealed.


Overall, Itachi wins with some- but not too much -difficulty. It wouldn't be anywhere near this close if Jiraiya started in base form, or if the fight simply began at a shorter distance.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yes, and preparing to do it means something. Itachi didn't manage to partially dodge Sasuke's katons, remember?
> 
> If you have advance warning, it's easier to put your shield up.



true due to blindness not because he couldnt react to it.

your right but that still doesnt change the fact that its lightning, due you know how fast lightning is? reacting to it is amazing.


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## Nikushimi (May 23, 2010)

He's right, you know.

Regardless of how much warning Itachi had, he didn't actually set up Susano'o until after Kirin was launched. I'd certainly like to see you, or anyone else for that matter, form a coherent thought in one one-thousandth of a second. Of course, it's completely impossible, so don't even bother trying...

EDIT: And because it's also worth noting, even though it's obvious, Sennin Jiraiya is nowhere near as fast as lightning. Itachi is totally fine.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> true due to blindness not because he couldnt react to it.
> 
> your right but that still doesnt change the fact that its lightning, due you know how fast lightning is? reacting to it is amazing.



He was blind in one eye during the katon dodge failure and he could hear that.

And yes, it IS impressive. But he partially did it due to having a lot of prep time to get ready


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He was blind in one eye during the katon dodge failure and he could hear that.
> 
> And yes, it IS impressive. But he partially did it due to having a lot of prep time to get ready



he was blind in one eye, and his vision in the other eye was still horrible, he seen sasuke only as a blur.

i agree with you lighty but having preptimes means little, the point is he reacted to lightning, itachi has the best reaction feat in the manga because of that. think about it, if i pull out a gun and fire can you react to that bullet? even tho you know i will shoot you lol now imagine the speed of lightning.


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## Lord Potato (May 23, 2010)

Itachi takes this. 

So.. just no knowledge of abilities? Then Itachi knows about Jiraiya, a legendary Sannin. And Jiraiya has no knowledge of Sharingan. 

Itachi would activate Tsukuyomi, and Jiraiya would look into his eyes, and Jiraiya can't counter it. And Jiraiya can't counter Tsukuyomi, yeah Itachi wins.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 23, 2010)

Lightning moves at the speed of light, therefore Itachi=Speed of light. This is preposterous to any thinking person, however it is canon. Any thoughts?

(PS: Itachi blitzes Jiraiya at 300,000 Km per second, confirm/deny?)


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## Angoobo (May 23, 2010)

HM Jiraiya takes this one rather easily: he is genjutsu immuned( with the two frogs on his shoulder), is faster, stronger and more experienced than Itachi.
I don't see a single reason why he would lose.


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## M?gas Strategos (May 23, 2010)

Akimichi Farley said:


> Lightning moves at the speed of light, therefore Itachi=Speed of light. This is preposterous to any thinking person, however it is canon. Any thoughts?
> 
> (PS: Itachi blitzes Jiraiya at 300,000 Km per second, confirm/deny?)



Lightning travels nowhere close the speed of light. It actually travels around half that speed.

I guess you could claim Itachi has 1/2 light speed reaction feats but that's assuming he activated in reaction to seeing Kirin. It's not movement speed either.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 23, 2010)

LOL, I thought I was being obviously obtuse. 

On a semi-serious note, what stance should we take? That Itachi can react at 150,000 km/s or that Kishi fails physics? Or that Kirin=/= lightning?


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## Jinnobi (May 23, 2010)

We should take the stance which says, "If giant ethereal wargods that consume 'life force' can be summoned on command, then Itachi can react at 150,000 KM/S" because Kirin = natural lightning and there has been no implication that natural lighting is different in Naruto than it is IRL.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Akimichi Farley said:


> LOL, I thought I was being obviously obtuse.
> 
> On a semi-serious note, what stance should we take? That Itachi can react at 150,000 km/s or that Kishi fails physics? Or that Kirin=/= lightning?



Why are you trying to discredit a feat that occured in the manga? if we were to take everything serious then this manga would make zero sense, such as  talking animals or summoning animals, or flying on clay birds and sand

if the author says itachi can react to lightning he can react to lightning nothing more or nothing less.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 23, 2010)

Discrediting it wasn't my intention. It's obviously in the manga. It's also obviously preposterous. I'm just curious wether the opinions of others on this small point attempt to reconcile the event with a less preposterous explanation or if "Itachi can react to anything you do at 150,000 km/s" is a widely acceptable position.


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## Respite (May 23, 2010)

Akimichi Farley said:


> Lightning moves at the speed of light, therefore Itachi=Speed of light. This is preposterous to any thinking person, however it is canon. Any thoughts?
> 
> (PS: Itachi blitzes Jiraiya at 300,000 Km per second, confirm/deny?)



What. 
The Feat does not prove that he can Move at that speed but it shows that his reactions are Extremly Fast.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Yes. He has great reaction time. Unbeatable? No.

What would've happened if Sasuke hadn't given him ages to get ready?


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Akimichi Farley said:


> Discrediting it wasn't my intention. It's obviously in the manga. It's also obviously preposterous. I'm just curious wether the opinions of others on this small point attempt to reconcile the event with a less preposterous explanation or if "Itachi can react to anything you do at 150,000 km/s" is a widely acceptable position.



true but this is a fictional manga, its pretty obvious no human can do that but i dont even count have of the characters in naruto human lolz




Lightysnake said:


> Yes. He has great reaction time. Unbeatable? No.
> 
> What would've happened if Sasuke hadn't given him ages to get ready?



no one claimed itachi was unbeatable i believe this all came from me trying to prove itachi is faster then both kakashi and sasuke and can dodge better, now if sasuke suddenly launched a random kirin it would kill anybody that goes without saying but so far nobody else in the manga has feats that can react to kirin no matter how you slice it lighty

thats like me saying pein dodging FRS isnt that great because naruto was talking before he threw it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> So being drawn in and converted, consistently disrupting chakra, with Shima and Fukasaku always placing more in.



It seems you don't know the mechanics pretty well...Lets go through the basics : 
Chakra is made of spiritual and body energy. So everytime a shinobi uses chakra, he goes through the process of mixing two ingredients to create it. As for sage chakra, there is one more ingredient added into the mix, and that is called nature energy.
In order to use sage chakra, you need to mix 3 ingredients. Now, creating sage chakra doesn't disrupt the chakra flow any more than the regular chakra does, since the mechanics are exactly the same, its just that for sage chakra there is one additional ingredient needed. 
So, again no, HM does not constantly disrupt Jiraiya's chakra, its nothing like it. HM only allows Jiriaya to use Nature energy as an additional ingredient to create sage chakra. 


> Don't play this.


no lets 



> In his base, Jiraiya has a 4.5 in speed,


ok



> which is massively enhanced with Sennin Mode.


any proof for that ? Especially for the massive part ? Feats or statements ?




> And he's got essentially unlimited stamina


thats wrong. Gathering Nature energy helps him recover faster. It is like chakra and stamina regen, but he can still run out of stamina or chakra.



> where Itachi has paltry. What'll Itachi do precisely if Jiraiya just makes a seal to do Yomi Numa right there?


Change his location ? 

He'd see the hand seals before even Jiraiya can execute the jutsu so he'll never get caught unprepared. Sharingan can see through ninjutsu. 

But tell me, what would Jiraiya do if a black flame were to appear on his face all of a sudden ? 
And How adept is Jiraiya @ fighting while avoiding eye contact ? Since it is his only chance else Tsukiyomi will take him down.
Or does he have any knowledge about Finger genjutsu ? Can the frogs realize that Jiraiya is under the influence of a genjutsu in time and disrupt it before Itachi cuts Jiraiya's arm off like he did to Orochimaru ?
I am not even mentioning Susano'o here, which rather comes off as an overkill.


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It seems you don't know the mechanics pretty well...Lets go through the basics :
> Chakra is made of spiritual and body energy. So everytime a shinobi uses chakra, he goes through the process of mixing two ingredients to create it. As for sage chakra, there is one more ingredient added into the mix, and that is called nature energy.
> In order to use sage chakra, you need to mix 3 ingredients. Now, creating sage chakra doesn't disrupt the chakra flow any more than the regular chakra does, since the mechanics are exactly the same, its just that for sage chakra there is one additional ingredient needed.
> So, again no, HM does not constantly disrupt Jiraiya's chakra, its nothing like it. HM only allows Jiriaya to use Nature energy as an additional ingredient to create sage chakra.


Yeah, the problem is you kind of miss that *Jiraiya isn't the one creating it*. Rather, Shima and Fukasaku are constantly injecting it into his body.



> no lets
> 
> 
> ok
> ...


We see a large increase from Naruto's speed and strength in Sage Mode, yes.  The manga states at in Sennin mode, one's physical abilities are largely enhanced-strength, speed, durability. We see Jiraiya cover a huge distance in what amounts to an instant as well. And here:
*The form form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain. He summons the Two Great Toad Sages from Mt. Myouboku into his body and by borrowing their power, his body absorbs a great amount of "nature energy". By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use Senjutsu (仙術, Sage Techniques), greatly increasing the level of all techniques, be it Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, or Genjutsu!! By uniting with the Two Great Toad Sages into one body, they can cooperate like a Trinity. This is certainly the domain of Sages.*



> thats wrong. Gathering Nature energy helps him recover faster. It is like chakra and stamina regen, but he can still run out of stamina or chakra.


You misunderstand. Jiraiya's chakra reserves and stamina are so utterly massive, he essentially has unlimited ones. Fukasaku compared his reserves to Naruto's and said they were the only two suited to learning Sennin Mode due to this 



> Change his location ?


Oh, because Itachi's so clever and so intelligent he'll instantly know "AHA, Doton, clearly he intends to make the Yomi Numa beneath me!"
Given Nagato knew the technique and Pain was still caught, meaning either Jiraiya can do it really damn well, or he can actually set it up as a trap.
And unlike Pain, Itachi has no idea what the Yomi Numa is, how it works...and hey, Jiraiya can control the size of the swamp. He considered the one that caught that enormous snake to be a small one.'

So, a move that instantly turns all of the ground Jiraiya wants into ensnaring, chakra infused mud that can easily sink a human being? Itachi's answer is 'He will intuitively know exactly what Jiraiya is doing and change his location.'



> He'd see the hand seals before even Jiraiya can execute the jutsu so he'll never get caught unprepared. Sharingan can see through ninjutsu.


Yeah, the funny thing about this is it's totally IC within Jiraiya to know that and hide the measly two hand seals from Itachi or just use a Bunshin to feint him. Or Toad Silhouette. We've seen Itachi caught by a bunshin fent before



> But tell me, what would Jiraiya do if a black flame were to appear on his face all of a sudden ?
> And How adept is Jiraiya @ fighting while avoiding eye contact ? Since it is his only chance else Tsukiyomi will take him down.


Apparently, this is basic for ninja, given even Sakura is adept with it, let alone the guy who was preparing to protect Naruto from Itachi for three years.
If Jiraiya is hit with Amaterasu, likely he wouldn't do much-unless he can just seal it now, from his first encounter with it and his actively not being unprepared for things.
And let's just ignore Itachi's entire character. he uses MS s a last resort in his fights. First he tries Genjutsu and Taijutsu, does he not?



> Or does he have any knowledge about Finger genjutsu ? Can the frogs realize that Jiraiya is under the influence of a genjutsu in time and disrupt it before Itachi cuts Jiraiya's arm off like he did to Orochimaru ?
> I am not even mentioning Susano'o here, which rather comes off as an overkill.



Yom Numa is an ample counte rto Susanoo, given Itachi will be instantly sunk from it. 

We haven't even covered Shima and Fukasaku attacking Itachi in conjunction with Jiraiya. What'll he do to Froggy Croak which they can pull off instantly and ICly DID right off against Pain with Naruto? The sonic waves that paralyze the opponent and all?

And givne Shima and Fukasaku are fused to Jiraiya, sharing his chakra system and have 800 years worth of experience under their belts, I'd like some evidence they'd be unaware of Genjutsu. Oh, providing, of course, that Jiraiya can't break it himself given the increase he gets in every single stat, including Genjutsu. And the finger genjutsu? The one even Naruto recognized as a genjutsu and partially resisted? When Jiraiya, a far, far, far stronger and experienced ninja, knew the breaking method that was only stated to fail by Itachi because of Naruto's lack of power? 
Hell, any Genjutsu Itachi tries can be disrupted by Shima and Fukasaku attacking him. 
In Sage Mode? Jiraiya isn't going to be overmatched in speed. Base Genjutsu is worthless. Jiraiya's a bunshin feint master, which Kakashi caught Itachi with.

Knowing his abilities, ICly from the Amaterasu he sealed and the whole Tsukuyomi thing he saw done to Sasuke and heard from with Kakashi? You think for a heartbeat Jiriaya is going to be stupid enough to look in Itachi's eyes without Bunshin ferints he used on Pain?

If Itachi tries fighting without MS right off, in Taijutsu, he's going to be crushed. One glancing blow from Jiraiya will shatter his bones, especially considering Shima and Fukasaku can attack as well. Or they just use Froggy Croak which Itachi has zero defense to as it's sound. Or Jiraiya can let them prep Frog Song while he hides in a barrier, or he can trap Itachi in a barrier, use Yomi Numa. feint Itachi and nail him with a giant Rasengan. Or feint him and use Yomi Numa.

Jiraiya has just as many ways to beat Itachi, and had three years to get ready for it. His techniques merely aren't as flashy, but a punch from a Sage Mode warrior to the face of Itachi whose strength is at an ordinary human level, is going to kill him just as dead as an ethereal sword or Amaterasu


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2010)

Would someone kindly tell me what Jiraiya can possibly do to Susano'o?


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Yomi Numa kinda nullifies that and Itachi


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## Vergil642 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Pain's chakra physically goes in and Nagato cna control you or paralyze you. Kind of different. Genjutsu is manipulating your own chakra



Genjutsu is manipulating a victim's chakra in their brain to stimulate their senses to create false illusions.

Pain's chakra rod screws up your chakra and if you're close enough would let him control you.

They both work by manipulating your chakra.

So why would Sage chakra, when it failed to magically resist Pain's chakra screwing with it, magically resist the control of anyone using Genjutsu?



> We have seen whenever a user summons Susanoo instantly, they tend to do it with the most complete form they have. Itachi had plenty of time to prepare with Sasuke's showboating besides
> 
> And it states simply that COR can hollow out/obliterate a mountain. That's pretty light. Any reason we should disbelieve it?



Show me Sasuke proveably summoning Susanoo in a microsecond.

And if we use DB statements, Susanoo=invincible, ergo Chou Oodama Rasengan can't do shit to it. Hint: this is why we don't fall back on DB statements or consider them very literal


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## Mr.Blonde (May 24, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Would someone kindly tell me what Jiraiya can possibly do to Susano'o?



Bye bye Susano'o


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Bye bye Susano'o



That link doesn't work.


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## Vergil642 (May 24, 2010)

Don't you see? Jiraiya's going to 403 forbidden Itachi to death!

How can Itachi stand before such hax


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## Mr.Blonde (May 24, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Pain's chakra rod screws up your chakra and if you're close enough would let him control you.
> 
> They both work by manipulating your chakra.
> 
> So why would Sage chakra, when it failed to magically resist Pain's chakra screwing with it, magically resist the control of anyone using Genjutsu?



Obviously because GENJUTSU ISN'T NEARLY AS STRONG AS SOMEONE DIRECTLY PUMPING HIS CHAKRA INTO YOU THROUGH A DEVICE DESIGNED EXACTLY FOR THAT PURPOSE.

I mean Pain can control dead bodies through that thing for fuck's sake.Genjutsu is insignificant next to that.

For the record:Kakashi has complete mastery over his sharingan and is pretty proeficient in genjutsu,and he was completely fucked just by being _grazed_ by one of those things.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That link doesn't work.


Works fine when i click it....
Anyway,I'm talking about Chou Odama Rasengan.


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## Tengu (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Works fine when i click it....
> Anyway,I'm talking about Chou Odama Rasengan.



Yata's Mirror will block it just fine.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Works fine when i click it....



So 403 forbidden is Jiraiya's answer...


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## Mr.Blonde (May 24, 2010)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> Yata's Mirror will block it just fine.


Says who?The Mirror works by changing its nature to match that of any ninjutsu.But the Rasengan hasn't got any type of nature manipulation.Its just pure (sage) chakra.

Regardless,what if he hits Susano'o from behind?

-snip-


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

If we use databook statements, plenty things are invincible, now aren't they? Against, Kakashi, Sasuke summoned his full Susanoo, ready to fire instantly. And by databook statements, Chou Oddama Rasengan's burst can obliterate a mountain.

If he hits the back of Susanoo? What happens then?


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> If we use databook statements, plenty things are invincible, now aren't they? Against, Kakashi, Sasuke summoned his full Susanoo, ready to fire instantly. And by databook statements, Chou Oddama Rasengan's burst can obliterate a mountain.
> 
> If he hits the back of Susanoo? What happens then?



how can he hit the back of someone who can react to lightning is beyond me.


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## DarkRasengan (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> how can he hit the back of someone who can react to lightning is beyond me.



Dumb answer u got there, it can form fast enough to block lightning, doesn't mean that giant ethereal being can turn on a dime.


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## Mr.Blonde (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> how can he hit the back of someone who can react to lightning is beyond me.


Itachi didn't 'react to lightning'.Anybody who says that is either full of shit or has the attention span of a gold fish.

He knew the attack was coming because he obviously saw the lightning clouds and Sasuke even did him the favor of telling him exactly what is going to happen.

Page 08: 
-Kirin is fully formed in the shape of a dragon.Itachi uses the MS,starts activating Susano'o

Page 09: 
Sasuke says "disappear with the thunder".He then motions with his hand.Itachi is using the MS.Activating Susano'o....

Even if what you says is true,there's also this 





DarkRasengan said:


> doesn't mean that giant ethereal being can turn on a dime.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Itachi didn't 'react to lightning'.Anybody who says that is either full of shit or has the attention span of a gold fish.
> 
> He knew the attack was coming because he obviously saw the lightning clouds and Sasuke even did him the favor of telling him exactly what is going to happen.
> 
> ...



so I have the attention span of a gold fish? lol nice very mature anyway itachi formed susano after sasuke used kirin this is canon, and read zetsu's statement, thus itachi reacted to lightning im sry if you cant accept it, sasuke says that statement while kirin is hitting him 



DarkRasengan said:


> Dumb answer u got there, it can form fast enough to block lightning, doesn't mean that giant ethereal being can turn on a dime.


dumb answer? susano is not slow it reacted to hydra just fine, im sry if u expect me to believe jiraiya can run up to a etheral being with a gigantic sword and avoid everything, and manage to hit the etheral being, and destroy that etheral being when lightning itself wasnt strong enough, you ppl are something else and then you have the nerve and arrogance to judge my answer's and responses


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> how can he hit the back of someone who can react to lightning is beyond me.



Yeah, it can FORM fast as lightning. Not move like it


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## Mr.Blonde (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> so I have the attention span of a gold fish? lol nice very mature anyway itachi formed susano after sasuke used kirin this is canon, and read zetsu's statement, thus itachi reacted to lightning im sry if you cant accept it


What statement are you talking about?


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> What statement are you talking about?





an itachi launched susano after kirin was used not b4, so why are we to assume he did not react to lightning




Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, it can FORM fast as lightning. Not move like it


 nobody said that im saying if he could react to lightning why couldnt he prep susano to block the rasengon?


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

He used it when it was being used quite clearly. Again, that shows forming speed.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He used it when it was being used quite clearly. Again, that shows forming speed.



and reaction what makes you think jiraiya wont get tagged b4 he even gets in range


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## Mr.Blonde (May 24, 2010)

Zetsu was talking about dodging.As in moving away.Which is indeed out of the question



Lelouchprince3 said:


> an itachi launched susano after kirin was used not b4, so why are we to assume he did not react to lightning


That's the point.I just explained to you he didn't.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Zetsu was talking about dodging.As in moving away.Which is indeed out of the question
> 
> 
> That's the point.I just explained to you he didn't.



itachi activated his jutsu, which means he reacted to it no matter how u try to word it.

yes he did, upon seing the move he activated his susano or do you want scans of that as well?


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## Mr.Blonde (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> yes he did, upon seing the move he activated his susano or do you want scans of that as well?


Thanks for proving my point.
He saw the move .But the move didn't hit until  after Sasuke spoke and motioned with his hand.Plenty of time to react.Nowhere near lightning speed


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Thanks for proving my point.
> He saw the move .But the move didn't hit until  after Sasuke spoke and motioned with his hand.Plenty of time to react.Nowhere near lightning speed



no im afraid you proved nothing, just because he didnt hit him on the same page means nothing, pein dodged FRS in 1 second that required about 3 to 4 pages if im not mistaken and the feat still stands, and again sasuke said that as the move was hitting him


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## Mr.Blonde (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> and again sasuke said that as the move was hitting him


Wrong.
Itachi saw Kirin fully formed.Sasuke then spoke.After that he pulled his hand and Kirin hit.

Going by what you said means Sasuke can speak with lightning fast speed


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Wrong.
> Itachi saw Kirin fully formed.Sasuke then spoke.After that he pulled his hand and Kirin hit.
> 
> Going by what you said means Sasuke can speak with lightning fast speed



ok was susano up while sasuke spoke? no , did itachi activate susano on his own merit while kirin was launched at him ? yes 

you can try to read whatever you want to read into it, the fact remains the same itachi reacted to lightning.


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## Mr.Blonde (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> ok was susano up while sasuke spoke? no


Proof?We only see a close-up of Itachi's face



Lelouchprince3 said:


> did itachi activate susano on his own merit while kirin was launched at him ? yes


Proof?We only see a close-up of Itachi's face


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Itachi with a great deal of warning, activated Susanoo to react to lightning.

If he could have dodged it or done anything else, he likely would have


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Proof?We only see a close-up of Itachi's face
> 
> 
> Proof?We only see a close-up of Itachi's face



The proof is niether sasuke or zetsu saw the giant etheral being



Lightysnake said:


> Itachi with a great deal of warning, activated Susanoo to react to lightning.
> 
> If he could have dodged it or done anything else, he likely would have



ok i see u agree with me on that point, the fact of the matter is jiraiya's rasengon will also sort of warn him, he will se jiraiya form it will he not?


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Jiraiya can move very quick and he goes right for the kill with no warning. Itachi won't be seeing storm clouds form while Jiraiya blabs on and on.

He'll zoom behind him, or use a Bunshin feint to distract him


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Go sit on a drill



Seriously though, can you link the actual page?


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya can move very quick and he goes right for the kill with no warning. Itachi won't be seeing storm clouds form while Jiraiya blabs on and on.
> 
> He'll zoom behind him, or use a Bunshin feint to distract him



Thats ooc and jiraiya can move quick but not beyond itachi's vision to track him, itachi can swing the sword at the right time and force jiraiya into the air, and then block the rasengon and then cut him.


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

It's OOC for Jiraiya to use Bunshin feints He did that against Pain and Konan.
I'm afraid, that's...VERY IC for him.

And this assuming Itachi can get that out. Kakashi kept up with Itachi fine PTS. Jiraiya is loads faster in Sage Mode. And then Yomi Numa, which Itachi has no defense against


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It's OOC for Jiraiya to use Bunshin feints He did that against Pain and Konan.
> I'm afraid, that's...VERY IC for him.
> 
> And this assuming Itachi can get that out. Kakashi kept up with Itachi fine PTS. Jiraiya is loads faster in Sage Mode. And then Yomi Numa, which Itachi has no defense against



Ok so scans of jiraiya using a rasegan bushin fient while in sage mode? if thats the case ill just say itachi uses kb and have the kb put up susano as well


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

A Rasengan? No, admittedly. Can he do it? Certainly. Would he? Likely. He uses Bunshin feints to use an appropriate attack

And Itachi will halve his chakra and use Susanoo? Not only is it doubtful if his bunshin can use the MS, but Susanoo's massive chakra consumption means Itachi is going to collapse and his bunshin will disperse from no chakra.
Think about Itachi's notable weakness: his lack of chakra


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## Turrin (May 24, 2010)

This thread has gone on for so long i can't even believe its still around; But i still say that J-man and Itachi are equals and if your giving J-man the Advantage of starting in HM he is going to win more battles then he is going to loose. r


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> A Rasengan? No, admittedly. Can he do it? Certainly. Would he? Likely. He uses Bunshin feints to use an appropriate attack
> 
> And Itachi will halve his chakra and use Susanoo? Not only is it doubtful if his bunshin can use the MS, but Susanoo's massive chakra consumption means Itachi is going to collapse and his bunshin will disperse from no chakra.
> Think about Itachi's notable weakness: his lack of chakra



So because he can do it , it now means he most likley will?

anyway itachi used tsukiyomi twice, amatarasu and redirected and exsinquished it , he used a regular katon and used tsusano twice while being on his death bed, why are we to believe he cant use a kb and use 2 susano's?


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

When he's done similar things when he needs to? When your argument and the argument of Itachi fans is him spamming everything endlessly?

again, A Bunshin can barely use MS due to the chakra drain. A Karasu bunshin cannot due to being 30 percent or less of the chakra.

He used Tsukuyomi once against Sasuke, Amaterasu twice-extinguishing is not stated to take chakra...a single Katon and Susanoo, which uses life force besides the chakra, allowing one to maintain it there.

The Bunshin would be drained by Susanoo almost instantly. Jiraiya would also be able to wait that out and communicate or ready Frog Song. Or nail him with a frog croak. Or Yomi Numa.

Tell me, what is Itachi';s defense to:
A. Frog Song
b. Frog Croak
C. Yomi Numa?


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## Akimichi Farley (May 24, 2010)

As ridiculous as some of us might think it is Itachi has 150,000 KM/s reflex speed. This is now canon. This means that coupled with his enchanted Susano Itachi can block everything at 1/2 the speed of fucking light. I repeat, this is now canon.

Within the structured boundaries of the BD, it is ludicrous to now posit that FRS, HM rasengans, or anything else that occurs at less than 1/2 of the speed of light could get past Yata's mirror barring extreme circumstances.

(PS, within the less structured boundaries of normal discussion I personally attribute the whole "Kirin incident" to whatever reasonable explanation there could be which doesn't include actions occuring at  1/2 the speed of light)

No, I'm not an Uchihatard, no I don't like it, yes I think it's preposterous. Does that make it non-canon? Unfortunately not. 

tl;dr: Itachi don't give a darn at 150,000 KM/s. If Susano is out, Jiraiya is not hitting him.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> When he's done similar things when he needs to? When your argument and the argument of Itachi fans is him spamming everything endlessly?



i never stated itachi has to spam anything




Lightysnake said:


> He used Tsukuyomi once against Sasuke, Amaterasu twice-extinguishing is not stated to take chakra...a single Katon and Susanoo, which uses life force besides the chakra, allowing one to maintain it there.



he used it twice, when he showed sasuke the history of the uchiha clan that was tsukiyomi.


Lightysnake said:


> The Bunshin would be drained by Susanoo almost instantly. Jiraiya would also be able to wait that out and communicate or ready Frog Song. Or nail him with a frog croak. Or Yomi Numa.



you said yourself susano takes life energy and no chakra are you implying 1 kb would tire itachi out? when he was able to use his other ms techniqes more then once against sasuke and still was able to hold up susano?


Lightysnake said:


> Tell me, what is Itachi';s defense to:
> A. Frog Song
> b. Frog Croak
> C. Yomi Numa?



frog song he probably has no counter for it, but i doubt the match will last long enough for jiraya to use it'

and clarify sry im not famlar with all of jiraiyas jutsu by name what is

b. and c.?


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> i never stated itachi has to spam anything


Just using it is incredibly draining



> he used it twice, when he showed sasuke the history of the uchiha clan that was tsukiyomi.


No, that was a regular genjutsu.  It's never noted as Tsukuyomi. And each MS Jutsu takes around 30 percent of Itachi's chakra



> you said yourself susano takes life energy and no chakra are you implying 1 kb would tire itachi out? when he was able to use his other ms techniqes more then once against sasuke and still was able to hold up susano?


A bunshin doing an MS technique would cancel it given how little chakra they'd have.
Susanoo takes chakra, too. It just costs life energy and chakra to maintain



> frog song he probably has no counter for it, but i doubt the match will last long enough for jiraya to use it'


Jiraiya can't cover in a barrier and leave bunshins why?



> and clarify sry im not famlar with all of jiraiyas jutsu by name what is


It's Shima and Fukasaku's. Froggy Croak is when they blast a supersonic blast that paralyzes the enemy



> b. and c.?



The swamp.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Just using it is incredibly draining
> its realy not as bad as your making it out to be
> 
> No, that was a regular genjutsu.  It's never noted as Tsukuyomi. And each MS Jutsu takes around 30 percent of Itachi's chakra




that was tsukiyomi lighty.


Lightysnake said:


> A bunshin doing an MS technique would cancel it given how little chakra they'd have.
> Susanoo takes chakra, too. It just costs life energy and chakra to maintain




if a kb and 2 susano's are the only moves itachi uses i dont see why it would tire him out.


Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya can't cover in a barrier and leave bunshins why?


its ooc for jiraiya to even use bushins in hm.


Lightysnake said:


> It's Shima and Fukasaku's. Froggy Croak is when they blast a supersonic blast that paralyzes the enemy




didnt pein dodge them?


Lightysnake said:


> The swamp.



the swamp is a good defense also but i think the mirror of yata can null it and if it cant to use the move jiraiya will have to be close and he will be in tsukiyomi range and amatarasu range.


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> that was tsukiyomi lighty.


Prove it. I think the databook even states otherwise



> if a kb and 2 susano's are the only moves itachi uses i dont see why it would tire him out.


Half chakra, using the most draining jutsu in his arsenal?



> its ooc for jiraiya to even use bushins in hm.


Oh, is it now?


Pain might find that enlightening




> didnt pein dodge them?


No, they froze the summons he used and let the bunshins Rasengan them



> the swamp is a good defense also but i think the mirror of yata can null it and if it cant to use the move jiraiya will have to be close and he will be in tsukiyomi range and amatarasu range.


Yata's Mirror can't just nullify it. It's not an attack like that. Moreover, YM doesn't cover all of Susanoo, meaning the rest of Itachi and Susanoo are still trapped.

Also, Yomi Numa? Jiraiya controls the depth of the swamp. Jiraiya doesn't have to close, either. The databook says it can be used in all ranges


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## Nikushimi (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Tell me, what is Itachi';s defense to:
> A. Frog Song
> b. Frog Croak
> C. Yomi Numa?



A. Itachi has Sharingan, and is presumably much better than the Ni Dai Sennin at Genjutsu. He has the superior weapon, AND superior skill.
B. Presumably you are talking about the paralysis thing the Ni Dai Sennin used on Pain's summons. Just nail them with a couple of shuriken as soon as they try to use it.
C. If It's small enough, he can jump it. If it's too big, he can use Susano'o and nullify it with the Yata no Kagami, since it's just chakra-infused mud according to the databook entry.



Akimichi Farley said:


> Discrediting it wasn't my intention. It's obviously in the manga. It's also obviously preposterous. I'm just curious wether the opinions of others on this small point attempt to reconcile the event with a less preposterous explanation or if "Itachi can react to anything you do at 150,000 km/s" is a widely acceptable position.



I don't know if you want to be that black and white about it. Yes, I think it's perfectly plausible that Itachi reacted to an attack at 150,000km/s (I'm assuming that's accurate). However, you have to remember that Susano'o seems to activate at will. At it really shows is that Itachi is fast enough to form a coherent thought in that span of time. If you think about how fast regular humans like you and I can form a coherent thought, and then "thoughtscale" up from there, it's actually not so implausible. You also have to remember that Kirin was a direct-line attack fired from a distance. If Kirin was autonomous and could move freely at that speed, I doubt Itachi would be able to react to such rapid change in direction. But as for a linear attack, I don't see the problem. I mean, Itachi's easily supersonic when it comes to movement speed anyway, so why not?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> A. Itachi has Sharingan, and is presumably much better than the Ni Dai Sennin at Genjutsu. He has the superior weapon, AND superior skill.


Oh is he? Okay, prove he can handle a Senjutsu powered Genjutsu. One that immediately paralyzes his body AND mind.



> B. Presumably you are talking about the paralysis thing the Ni Dai Sennin used on Pain's summons. Just nail them with a couple of shuriken as soon as they try to use it.


Yeah, Jiraiya will let him do that. I know you have a terrible time giving him any credit, but he can stop Itachi from using a couple of shurikens on his partners
Hell, given these two are Senjutsu powered, shurikens might just bounce off given how durable they should be.

So what happens if he's hit by it? It takes them less than an instant to do. Especially as he has no idea what it is



> C. If It's small enough, he can jump it.


It appears insantly and he has no idea it's coming, sorry. If it's too big, he can use Susano'o and nullify it with the Yata no Kagami, since it's just chakra-infused mud according to the databook entry.[/Quote]
Jiraiya can instantly make it large and deep enough to sink it. The Yata no Kagami can only nullify some of it...and if it does, he's then still stuck in the deep swamp as nothing can move in it.

Seems the golden boy is done there


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, the problem is you kind of miss that *Jiraiya isn't the one creating it*. Rather, Shima and Fukasaku are constantly injecting it into his body.



They aren't creating it. They are channeling nature energy, since Jiraiya can't gather it while moving. They are gathering Nature energy and channeling it into Jiraiya so Jiraiya can use it to create sage chakra instead of normal chakra. Noone said anything about Shima and Fukasaku transfering their own chakra into Jiraiya, Jiraiya is using his own sage chakra.

So for the last time no, the process does not constantly disrupt chakra.




> We see a large increase from Naruto's speed and strength in Sage Mode, yes.


Strength yes, speed no.



> The manga states at in Sennin mode, one's physical abilities are largely enhanced-strength, speed, durability.


Where does it say anything about speed ? Seriosly find me the scans.



> We see Jiraiya cover a huge distance in what amounts to an instant as well.


Scans ?



> And here:
> *The form form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain. He summons the Two Great Toad Sages from Mt. Myouboku into his body and by borrowing their power, his body absorbs a great amount of "nature energy". By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use Senjutsu (仙術, Sage Techniques), greatly increasing the level of all techniques, be it Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, or Genjutsu!! By uniting with the Two Great Toad Sages into one body, they can cooperate like a Trinity. This is certainly the domain of Sages.*


Nothing about speed.



> You misunderstand. Jiraiya's chakra reserves and stamina are so utterly massive, he essentially has unlimited ones. Fukasaku compared his reserves to Naruto's and said they were the only two suited to learning Sennin Mode due to this


Massive doesn't mean unlimited. 



> Oh, because Itachi's so clever and so intelligent he'll instantly know "AHA, Doton, clearly he intends to make the Yomi Numa beneath me!"


No but he will know something is coming, and he'll see the chakra forming beneath his feat. Or he can simply counter attack and doesn't let jiraiya form the handseals.



> Given Nagato knew the technique and Pain was still caught, meaning either Jiraiya can do it really damn well, or he can actually set it up as a trap.
> And unlike Pain, Itachi has no idea what the Yomi Numa is, how it works...and hey, Jiraiya can control the size of the swamp. He considered the one that caught that enormous snake to be a small one.'


The pain that got caught by yomi numa was blind. And Pain hasn't shown Itachi's level of awareness.

Itachi is a close range fighter, how can Jiraiya get the opportunity to create a huge swamp without sinking himself along with Itachi.




> So, a move that instantly turns all of the ground Jiraiya wants into ensnaring, chakra infused mud that can easily sink a human being? Itachi's answer is 'He will intuitively know exactly what Jiraiya is doing and change his location.'


He can sense the danger coming from beneath and change his location. Yomi numa is just an A rank technique, it is overrated as hell. Just beause it succeeded on fodder snakes and a blind fodder expandable body of Pain doesn't mean it will work all the time it is used. 



> Yeah, the funny thing about this is it's totally IC within Jiraiya to know that and hide the measly two hand seals from Itachi


Its in the realm of fanfic to assume that Jiraiya will hide his handseals, so far we haven'T seen anyone do that, including Jiraiya.


> or just use a Bunshin to feint him. Or Toad Silhouette.


or maybe Itachi uses a bunshin feint first ? Since he has sharingan prediction and has faster handseal speed, he will always be 1 step ahead of Jiraiya.



> We've seen Itachi caught by a bunshin fent before


It was Itachi's shouten clone and he wasn't fighting seriously. Besides, bunshin feints work on everyone, not just him. But there were times when Itachi had seen through them aswell. 




> Apparently, this is basic for ninja, given even Sakura is adept with it, let alone the guy who was preparing to protect Naruto from Itachi for three years.


Sakura was adept with it ? Lol'd. Go back and read those chapters. There is also nothing that suggests that Jiraiya is adept fighting that way. 



> If Jiraiya is hit with Amaterasu, likely he wouldn't do much-unless he can just seal it now, from his first encounter with it and his actively not being unprepared for things.


Seal it ? How ? 
Are you assuming that he can whip out a scroll place it on the ground, form the hand seals and cast the jutsu while he is being consumed by Amaterasu ?




> And let's just ignore Itachi's entire character. he uses MS s a last resort in his fights. First he tries Genjutsu and Taijutsu, does he not?


Thats a wrong observation. We haven't seen Itachi fight seriously, not once. MS is not a last resort, it is a resort used when it is necessary. Itachi never tried to kill any of his opponents until now so it is only natural that he either didn't use it or he used it to protect himself.



> Yom Numa is an ample counte rto Susanoo, given Itachi will be instantly sunk from it.


First off, it does not sink anything instantly. And secondly, Susano'o can simply lift Itachi above the ground. And no, yomi numa can't sink Susano'o.



> We haven't even covered Shima and Fukasaku attacking Itachi in conjunction with Jiraiya. What'll he do to Froggy Croak which they can pull off instantly and ICly DID right off against Pain with Naruto? The sonic waves that paralyze the opponent and all?


Nothing in their arsenal is more instantaneous than Itachi's MS.  Nothing in their arsenal has the capability of getting past Susano'o. Nothing in their arsenal have any answers to Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu. 



> And givne Shima and Fukasaku are fused to Jiraiya, sharing his chakra system and have 800 years worth of experience under their belts, I'd like some evidence they'd be unaware of Genjutsu.



For starters they aren't sharing chakra systems. Their chakra systems might be connected somehow but they in no way sharing chakra. IF it was the case, then Fukasaku and shima would also be effected by the black rod which was stuck into Jiraiya's body and yet the only one who felt the dominating effects of Nagato was Jiraiya.
800 years worth of experience didn't help them from being destroyed in 2 panels in a battle against Pain though. Please don't try to play the experience card when you have no feats to back it up.



> Oh, providing, of course, that Jiraiya can't break it himself given the increase he gets in every single stat, including Genjutsu.


No feats to back it up. 


> And the finger genjutsu? The one even Naruto recognized as a genjutsu and partially resisted?


He didn't realize it until Itachi made it obvious that it was a genjutsu.
And the one using the genjutsu wasn't Itachi himself, it was a shouten clone.



> When Jiraiya, a far, far, far stronger and experienced ninja, knew the breaking method that was only stated to fail by Itachi because of Naruto's lack of power?


Their genjutsu stat isn't much different. 2 vs 3 and as we've seen Itachi can counter resist the attempt of resisting.



> Hell, any Genjutsu Itachi tries can be disrupted by Shima and Fukasaku attacking him.


Wrong, as we've seen in the shouten clone fight, Itachi was fending of Kakashi as he was utilizing the genjutsu on Naruto, he can fight and use genjutsu at the same time. 



> In Sage Mode? Jiraiya isn't going to be overmatched in speed. Base Genjutsu is worthless. Jiraiya's a bunshin feint master, which Kakashi caught Itachi with.


Jiraiya used a kb only once I guess. Itachi used more and much more effectively. Base genjutsu still works for feints and such. And Itachi had no problems with being caught since he was only trying to delay Kakashi's team. and he dispatched the kb in record time.




> Knowing his abilities, ICly from the Amaterasu he sealed and the whole Tsukuyomi thing he saw done to Sasuke and heard from with Kakashi? You think for a heartbeat Jiriaya is going to be stupid enough to look in Itachi's eyes without Bunshin ferints he used on Pain?


He sealed the partial remains of a stable amaterasu. He has absoultely no idea how the technique is executed and the extend of its power.
If he doesn't look Itachi in the eye,  he will get caught by Amaterasu or finger genjutsu or other various stuff.



> If Itachi tries fighting without MS right off, in Taijutsu, he's going to be crushed.One glancing blow from Jiraiya will shatter his bones, especially considering Shima and Fukasaku can attack as well.



Itachi doesn't start off with Taijutsu, he uses genjutsu to test out his opponents abilities and his bunshin usage is extremly fast, not even 3 tomoe sharingan can keep up with it, so Jiraiya will most likely waste most of his moves in genjutsu or on bunshins.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2010)

> Or they just use Froggy Croak which Itachi has zero defense to as it's sound. Or Jiraiya can let them prep Frog Song while he hides in a barrier, or he can trap Itachi in a barrier, use Yomi Numa. feint Itachi and nail him with a giant Rasengan. Or feint him and use Yomi Numa.



Cool story but why is Itachi not doing anything in any of your scenarios ? Its as if Itachi is standing still and Jiraya is testing his arsenal on him.

Let me try one : 
Itachi spams shurikens and Jiraiya dies.


As far as I know, Itachi can execute his techniques much faster than Jiraiya so Jiraiya would be forced to defend most of the time. 



> Jiraiya has just as many ways to beat Itachi, and had three years to get ready for it. His techniques merely aren't as flashy, but a punch from a Sage Mode warrior to the face of Itachi whose strength is at an ordinary human level, is going to kill him just as dead as an ethereal sword or Amaterasu



First off, how can Jiraiya prepare for the unknown ? And secondly, Itachi had 3 years aswell to prepare against the guardian of the Jinchuuriki he is after, how is that for a fanfic ?

Sure, If Itachi takes a punch to the face from HM Jiraiya he will be done for, but that has a very low chance of happening since : he has sharingan prediction, he will be one step ahead of Jiraiya at all times and he can summon susano'o at will, faster than a lightning can strike, so no, unless Itachi is out of chakra or anything(which will never happen because Itachi can finish Jiraiya off long before that) Jiraiya can't touch him.
But also consider that a kunai to the eyeball will kill or incapacitate Jiraiya  whether he is in HM or not, and thats the kind of shit Itachi uses in close encounters.


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## Nikushimi (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Oh is he? Okay, prove he can handle a Senjutsu powered Genjutsu. One that immediately paralyzes his body AND mind.



Senjutsu is essentially nothing more than a more potent Ninjutsu/Genjutsu/Taijutsu technique. Since it is qualitatively the exact same thing as regular Genjutsu, just stronger, it stands to reason that it follows the same rules as regular Genjutsu.

What are the rules for breaking regular Genjutsu (with a Doujutsu)? You either need the better weapon, or significantly better skill than your adversary to compensate. Itachi's Sharingan is undoubtedly better than...regular toad eyes. And it's safe to say that as far as feats are concerned, Itachi being able to alter space, mass, and even temporal perception are all abilities that far outstrip mere paralysis, however thorough...

I mean, this is the guy who possesses the Genjutsu stated to be the strongest in the series. Bring up Izanagi if you want, but at least recognize this: At the very least, Tsukuyomi AND Izanagi boast this title. Magen: Gamarinshou does not, and never did. It isn't in the same league as either Genjutsu. Yeah, it's powerful because it's Senjutsu Genjutsu, but you're comparing a non-Doujutsu Kanashibari no Genjutsu to a Doujutsu Genjutsu of- of all things -not just Sharingan, but _Mangekyou_ Sharingan.

There is hardly any reason to assume Itachi could not handle Magen: Gamarinshou.



> Yeah, Jiraiya will let him do that. I know you have a terrible time giving him any credit, but he can stop Itachi from using a couple of shurikens on his partners



You say he can, yet neglect to mention how. Jiraiya is strong, but that doesn't mean he's untouchable.



> Hell, given these two are Senjutsu powered, shurikens might just bounce off given how durable they should be.



Considering Pain's chakra rods, which Tendou and Kakashi could break with their bare hands, were able to pierce both Sennin Jiraiya AND Sennin Naruto (as well as Fukasaku), it's safe to say a shuriken would.



> So what happens if he's hit by it? It takes them less than an instant to do. Especially as he has no idea what it is



Your entire premise is wrapped around the assumption that he gets hit by it. IIRC, it's listed as a Ninjutsu, so this question is tantamount to "What happens if he gets hit with Chou Oodama Rasengan?"

If he gets hit, that's a bad day. The object is not to get hit, though.



> It appears insantly and he has no idea it's coming, sorry.



"Instantly" isn't defined, so that means nothing. Somehow, I doubt the guy who can think during the span of a millisecond is going to have any trouble reacting to a Jutsu that...isn't lightning.



> Jiraiya can instantly make it large and deep enough to sink it. The Yata no Kagami can only nullify some of it...and if it does, he's then still stuck in the deep swamp as nothing can move in it.



Itachi just needs to swipe a patch of mud beneath himself, and then he can't sink into it because it's just regular mud. From there, he can pave a swath to dry land.



> Seems the golden boy is done there



No, not really. But I like how you wear your Itachi hate as a badge while still trying to maintain the illusion of being objective.


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## Complete_Ownage (May 25, 2010)

They our equals

End thread


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## Jinnobi (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> A Rasengan? No, admittedly. Can he do it? Certainly. Would he? Likely. He uses Bunshin feints to use an appropriate attack
> 
> And Itachi will halve his chakra and use Susanoo? Not only is it doubtful if his bunshin can use the MS, but Susanoo's massive chakra consumption means Itachi is going to collapse and his bunshin will disperse from no chakra.
> Think about Itachi's notable weakness: his lack of chakra





Susano'o can't take massive chakra consumption because Itachi was nearly out of chakra when he used it - especially when you said "...Itachi's notable weakness: his lack of chakra." If someone who you claim to have a low chakra pool is almost out to begin with, Susano'o would practically have no chakra to run itself with, and yet Itachi managed to use it long enough to defeat Orochimaru and reach Sasuke. In addition, there has been a suggestion that the bigger the object is, the more chakra it takes to seal away with the Totsuka Sword. If you buy into this theory, it further implies that Susano'o takes very little chakra to maintain.


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## JustPimpin (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He used Tsukuyomi once against Sasuke, Amaterasu twice-extinguishing is not stated to take chakra...a single Katon and Susanoo, which uses life force besides the chakra, allowing one to maintain it there.
> 
> The Bunshin would be drained by Susanoo almost instantly. Jiraiya would also be able to wait that out and communicate or ready Frog Song. Or nail him with a frog croak. Or Yomi Numa.



You really can't say that's all he used because prior to the Uchiha showdown Itachi made a clone and gave its power to Naruto.

Wouldn't that make him only at 50% at the start of the Sasuke fight, not to mention the power that he gave Naruto might never have came back to him (or something like that)


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## Paranoid Android (May 25, 2010)

I'll take Jiraiya 6/10 times.

I mean, Sage Mode does have some genjutsu counters, especially with the added help of shima and fukasaku. Sage mode gives extra speed and chakra control, so Jiraiya's release (kai) technique or the sage mode equivalent of it would be able to at least mitigate the dmg. keep in mind that it costs itachi a TON of chakra to do anything, and Sage mode does boost his chakra levels to the next level.

VERY high difficulty for both, but I'll take jiraiya, slight edge.


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## ? (May 25, 2010)

can anyone tell me how jiraiya counters amaterasu?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They aren't creating it. They are channeling nature energy, since Jiraiya can't gather it while moving. They are gathering Nature energy and channeling it into Jiraiya so Jiraiya can use it to create sage chakra instead of normal chakra. Noone said anything about Shima and Fukasaku transfering their own chakra into Jiraiya, Jiraiya is using his own sage chakra.
> 
> So for the last time no, the process does not constantly disrupt chakra.


And they are giving it to him constantly, which will disrupt any attempt to manipulate his chakra.
Thanks for coming





> Strength yes, speed no.


Despite seeing noticeable speed increases in Sage Mode



> Where does it say anything about speed ? Seriosly find me the scans.


Naruto's obvious speed boosts in Sage Mode would demonstrate an easy 4.5 or 5 in speed. Jiraiya's a 4.5 in base



> Scans ?




and here




> Nothing about speed.


If one is refusing to give Jiraiya any credit at all, I suppose that's true



> Massive doesn't mean unlimited.


In base, it might as well be compared to Itachi and Jiraiya has shown nothing that rapidly depletes it to the extent of the MS.
And in Sage Mode, he's not running out 



> No but he will know something is coming, and he'll see the chakra forming beneath his feat. Or he can simply counter attack and doesn't let jiraiya form the handseals.


Or Jiraiya, knowing damn well what the Sharingan does, will fight smart


The pain that got caught by yomi numa was blind. And Pain hasn't shown Itachi's level of awareness.

Itachi is a close range fighter, how can Jiraiya get the opportunity to create a huge swamp without sinking himself along with Itachi.



He can sense the danger coming from beneath and change his location. Yomi numa is just an A rank technique, it is overrated as hell. Just beause it succeeded on fodder snakes and a blind fodder expandable body of Pain doesn't mean it will work all the time it is used. 


Its in the realm of fanfic to assume that Jiraiya will hide his handseals, so far we haven'T seen anyone do that, including Jiraiya.

or maybe Itachi uses a bunshin feint first ? Since he has sharingan prediction and has faster handseal speed, he will always be 1 step ahead of Jiraiya.


It was Itachi's shouten clone and he wasn't fighting seriously. Besides, bunshin feints work on everyone, not just him. But there were times when Itachi had seen through them aswell. 



Sakura was adept with it ? Lol'd. Go back and read those chapters. There is also nothing that suggests that Jiraiya is adept fighting that way. 


Seal it ? How ? 
Are you assuming that he can whip out a scroll place it on the ground, form the hand seals and cast the jutsu while he is being consumed by Amaterasu ?



Thats a wrong observation. We haven't seen Itachi fight seriously, not once. MS is not a last resort, it is a resort used when it is necessary. Itachi never tried to kill any of his opponents until now so it is only natural that he either didn't use it or he used it to protect himself.


First off, it does not sink anything instantly. And secondly, Susano'o can simply lift Itachi above the ground. And no, yomi numa can't sink Susano'o.


Nothing in their arsenal is more instantaneous than Itachi's MS.  Nothing in their arsenal has the capability of getting past Susano'o. Nothing in their arsenal have any answers to Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu. 



For starters they aren't sharing chakra systems. Their chakra systems might be connected somehow but they in no way sharing chakra. IF it was the case, then Fukasaku and shima would also be effected by the black rod which was stuck into Jiraiya's body and yet the only one who felt the dominating effects of Nagato was Jiraiya.
800 years worth of experience didn't help them from being destroyed in 2 panels in a battle against Pain though. Please don't try to play the experience card when you have no feats to back it up.


No feats to back it up. 

He didn't realize it until Itachi made it obvious that it was a genjutsu.
And the one using the genjutsu wasn't Itachi himself, it was a shouten clone.


Their genjutsu stat isn't much different. 2 vs 3 and as we've seen Itachi can counter resist the attempt of resisting.


Wrong, as we've seen in the shouten clone fight, Itachi was fending of Kakashi as he was utilizing the genjutsu on Naruto, he can fight and use genjutsu at the same time. 


Jiraiya used a kb only once I guess. Itachi used more and much more effectively. Base genjutsu still works for feints and such. And Itachi had no problems with being caught since he was only trying to delay Kakashi's team. and he dispatched the kb in record time.



He sealed the partial remains of a stable amaterasu. He has absoultely no idea how the technique is executed and the extend of its power.
If he doesn't look Itachi in the eye,  he will get caught by Amaterasu or finger genjutsu or other various stuff.



Itachi doesn't start off with Taijutsu, he uses genjutsu to test out his opponents abilities and his bunshin usage is extremly fast, not even 3 tomoe sharingan can keep up with it, so Jiraiya will most likely waste most of his moves in genjutsu or on bunshins.[/QUOTE]



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Cool story but why is Itachi not doing anything in any of your scenarios ? Its as if Itachi is standing still and Jiraya is testing his arsenal on him.
> 
> Let me try one :
> Itachi spams shurikens and Jiraiya dies.
> ...





Jinnobi said:


> Susano'o can't take massive chakra consumption because Itachi was nearly out of chakra when he used it - especially when you said "...Itachi's notable weakness: his lack of chakra." If someone who you claim to have a low chakra pool is almost out to begin with, Susano'o would practically have no chakra to run itself with, and yet Itachi managed to use it long enough to defeat Orochimaru and reach Sasuke. In addition, there has been a suggestion that the bigger the object is, the more chakra it takes to seal away with the Totsuka Sword. If you buy into this theory, it further implies that Susano'o takes very little chakra to maintain.





JustPimpin said:


> You really can't say that's all he used because prior to the Uchiha showdown Itachi made a clone and gave its power to Naruto.
> 
> Wouldn't that make him only at 50% at the start of the Sasuke fight, not to mention the power that he gave Naruto might never have came back to him (or something like that)


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## Paranoid Android (May 25, 2010)

Inu said:


> can anyone tell me how jiraiya counters amaterasu?










Sasuke used a replacement jutsu to get out of Amaterasu. What's to say Jiraiya couldn't use something similar?


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## Jinnobi (May 25, 2010)

Paranoid Android said:


> Sasuke used a replacement jutsu to get out of Amaterasu. What's to say Jiraiya couldn't use something similar?



Because he's not Orochimaru?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They aren't creating it. They are channeling nature energy, since Jiraiya can't gather it while moving. They are gathering Nature energy and channeling it into Jiraiya so Jiraiya can use it to create sage chakra instead of normal chakra. Noone said anything about Shima and Fukasaku transfering their own chakra into Jiraiya, Jiraiya is using his own sage chakra.
> 
> So for the last time no, the process does not constantly disrupt chakra.


And they are giving it to him constantly, which will disrupt any attempt to manipulate his chakra.
Thanks for coming





> Strength yes, speed no.


Despite seeing noticeable speed increases in Sage Mode



> Where does it say anything about speed ? Seriosly find me the scans.


Naruto's obvious speed boosts in Sage Mode would demonstrate an easy 4.5 or 5 in speed. Jiraiya's a 4.5 in base



> Scans ?




and here




> Nothing about speed.


If one is refusing to give Jiraiya any credit at all, I suppose that's true



> Massive doesn't mean unlimited.


In base, it might as well be compared to Itachi and Jiraiya has shown nothing that rapidly depletes it to the extent of the MS.
And in Sage Mode, he's not running out 



> No but he will know something is coming, and he'll see the chakra forming beneath his feat. Or he can simply counter attack and doesn't let jiraiya form the handseals.


Or Jiraiya, knowing damn well what the Sharingan does, will fight smart and not let Itachi see his seals.
And he'll stop someone as fast as Jiraiya in Sage Mode how? With Fukasaku and Shima covering him?



> The pain that got caught by yomi numa was blind. And Pain hasn't shown Itachi's level of awareness.


Yeah, know something hilarious? Animal Realm can see chakra, too and didn't see the Yomi Numa on the ceiling Jiraiya'd formed. Pain's shown damned good senses and reactions, too. 
But he can escape CAUSE HE'S ITACHI


> Itachi is a close range fighter, how can Jiraiya get the opportunity to create a huge swamp without sinking himself along with Itachi.


Well, gee, he can only control the size of it. Sink target and not himself. Simple. 
Or hell, just trap him like Kakashi did and use a bunshin




> He can sense the danger coming from beneath and change his location. Yomi numa is just an A rank technique, it is overrated as hell. Just beause it succeeded on fodder snakes and a blind fodder expandable body of Pain doesn't mean it will work all the time it is used.


A rank refers to difficulty, not power.
And nice work, calling Pain's main Taijutsu body and arguably the fastest fodder. 
What does Itachi have to counter it precisely? Oh, wait, he can randomly SENSE the danger. Because he's ITACHI, yo. He can do anything, even counter instant moves he has absolutely no canonical knowledge of



> Its in the realm of fanfic to assume that Jiraiya will hide his handseals, so far we haven'T seen anyone do that, including Jiraiya.


Yeah, like Jiraiya wouldn't use a bunshin to trick Itachi like he did Pain for....some reason.



> or maybe Itachi uses a bunshin feint first ? Since he has sharingan prediction and has faster handseal speed, he will always be 1 step ahead of Jiraiya.


Oh, so kind of Itachi to halve his chakra. Never mind in Sage mode, Jiraiya will kind of nullify using Bunshin feints as he can sense wherever Itachi is



> It was Itachi's shouten clone and he wasn't fighting seriously. Besides, bunshin feints work on everyone, not just him. But there were times when Itachi had seen through them aswell.


Yes, yes, yes. We all know Itachi always has some excuse. His Shoten Clone had his strength and speed. It was equivalent to Itachi fighting without his MS.
We saw him fall for one to a high level opponent. Let's see him see through that of a higher level opponent 




> Sakura was adept with it ? Lol'd. Go back and read those chapters. There is also nothing that suggests that Jiraiya is adept fighting that way.


The only reason Itachi ensnared Naruto was because he didn't know of Utakata. Chiyo, SAkura and Kakashi displayed no issues not looking Itachi in the eye



> Seal it ? How ?
> Are you assuming that he can whip out a scroll place it on the ground, form the hand seals and cast the jutsu while he is being consumed by Amaterasu ?


Given how slow it seems to burn, yes. It took how long to burn through Karin's clothing?Never mind Shima and Fukasaku can kind of cover that for him



> Thats a wrong observation. We haven't seen Itachi fight seriously, not once. MS is not a last resort, it is a resort used when it is necessary. Itachi never tried to kill any of his opponents until now so it is only natural that he either didn't use it or he used it to protect himself.


Yes, yes, Itachi is never serious, Itachi is godly, Itachi can't be beat, we've heard it all before.
Unfortunately, Jiraiya will fight seriously. And against him, Itachi feared the best he could do was tie.
And he didn't even know about Sage Mode, now did he? In fact, the only time we even saw Jiraiya fight at full power was against Pain. Great measuring stick



> First off, it does not sink anything instantly. And secondly, Susano'o can simply lift Itachi above the ground. And no, yomi numa can't sink Susano'o.


Oh, look, arbitrary definitions of something unconfirmed. 
Sure it can sink Susanoo if it sinks Itachi. Jiraiya instantly sank the snake. If he was on full chakr,a he would've sunk it completely right there. He made the seal? Snake was trapped, period. Yeah, that's pretty instant.
And Susanoo has shown these properties when? At best it can use the Yata no Kagami to...nullify the mud touching the yata no Kagami. If Jiraiya felt like it and has the chakra, he could sink them a mile deep. It'll also be hard to lift them out if Jiraiya makes the swamp bigger than the arms of the Susanoo can reach



> Nothing in their arsenal is more instantaneous than Itachi's MS.  Nothing in their arsenal has the capability of getting past Susano'o. Nothing in their arsenal have any answers to Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu.


Itachi had to form handseals against Sasuke to prepare for Amaterasu actually

Here

And here it looks so instant, too.

You can see him making seals and he has to focus for it. Of course, Yomi Numa is an ample answer to Susanoo and unlike Itachi, Jiraiya doesn't need to hold his best moves in reverse. Or there's Frog Croak, which Shima and Fukasaku do whenever the heck they want.




> For starters they aren't sharing chakra systems. Their chakra systems might be connected somehow but they in no way sharing chakra. IF it was the case, then Fukasaku and shima would also be effected by the black rod which was stuck into Jiraiya's body and yet the only one who felt the dominating effects of Nagato was Jiraiya.


Way to avoid skirting the question entirely!
I mean, not like there was a whole clan of Sharingan users around that the toads have shown to be aware of, when even random messenger toad knows about Madara Uchiha. 
And they are kind of fused there. They can kai him out if he can't break out himself.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

> 800 years worth of experience didn't help them from being destroyed in 2 panels in a battle against Pain though. Please don't try to play the experience card when you have no feats to back it up.


Yeah, because them having to prepare Frog Song was really having nothing to do with it.
What'll Itachi do, use his gravity powers on them?
And no feats? Funny as we've seen plenty from them, including:
The jutus they used to force Animal Realm to summon the others. The high level katons and, unless that was filler, suitons. Massive physical strength, Fukasaku was shown fighting Sage Mode Naruto in Taijutsu to train him and almost doubtlessly knows Frog Katas. They have Frog Croak, which instantly stuns just about anything, and Frog Song. 



> No feats to back it up.


Saw him caught by Frog Song? No? Didn't think so. 
We saw NAruto able to resist Itachi partially. Jiraiya only admits he doesn't use Genjutsu. He knows how to break it. And in Sage Mode, he has two partners who can just attack Itachi WHILE breaking him out simultaneously. And in Sage Mode, Jiraiya's Genjutsu abilities greatly increase.
Evidence Itachi cna catch him there? Any? Didn't think so



> He didn't realize it until Itachi made it obvious that it was a genjutsu.
> And the one using the genjutsu wasn't Itachi himself, it was a shouten clone.


So? Utakata was no weaker. The usage of a genjutsu like that costs minimal chakra and the Shoten is basically Itachi with just 30 percent of Chakra.




> Their genjutsu stat isn't much different. 2 vs 3 and as we've seen Itachi can counter resist the attempt of resisting.


There's a large gap between 2 and 3. 2 is abysmal. 3 is pretty alright and Jiraiya only admits he doesn't use it as it's not his forte. He never claimed he sucks at it. Itachi can counter Naruto there who used to suck at it. No evidence he can do that to someone older and way stronger

Even if your'e not a Genjutsu type, you can still counter it. Like we've seen Gai do. Otherwise, Kurenai and Kabuto would've walked over Jiraiya.



> Wrong, as we've seen in the shouten clone fight, Itachi was fending of Kakashi as he was utilizing the genjutsu on Naruto, he can fight and use genjutsu at the same time.



When was he fighting Kakashi WHILE the Genjutsu was working? Seem Kakashi was attacking as Chiyo and Sakura helped Naruto. Both methods would've disrupted it



> Jiraiya used a kb only once I guess. Itachi used more and much more effectively. Base genjutsu still works for feints and such. And Itachi had no problems with being caught since he was only trying to delay Kakashi's team. and he dispatched the kb in record time.


Used 'more and much more effectively' based on...? Jiraiya also used another Bunshin with Konan. His Toad Silhouette is one of his best feints. Oh, and In Sage Mode, bunshin feints probably won't work on a guy who cna sense where you are anyways. 
And 'dispatched' Kakashi KB? Ummm, interesting interpretation.

Because Itachi was attacked by one designed to capture him-mission succeeded- and here we see Naruto actually destroying it. 

And base Genjutus doesn't work as well if you're going against a guy with two partners on his shoulder who are attacking as well. 




> He sealed the partial remains of a stable amaterasu. He has absoultely no idea how the technique is executed and the extend of its power.
> If he doesn't look Itachi in the eye,  he will get caught by Amaterasu or finger genjutsu or other various stuff.


Yeah, because he certainly wouldn't study it later what with knowing he'd have to protect Naruto from Itachi. He certainly didn't have access to some great sages or anything with knowledge of the great Doujutsu.
Utakata catching Sage Mode Jiraiya is blatantly hysterica, too. A jutsu a much weaker base Naruto could partially resist working on a Sannin? And somehow, I think if Itachi tries the seals for Amaterasu and closes his eye when it starts leaking blood and focusing, Jiraiya ain't gonna stay waving to him and Fukasaku and Shima won't do nothing




> Itachi doesn't start off with Taijutsu, he uses genjutsu to test out his opponents abilities and his bunshin usage is extremly fast, not even 3 tomoe sharingan can keep up with it, so Jiraiya will most likely waste most of his moves in genjutsu or on bunshins.


The one time he did that? It was apparently a Tsukuyomi as he and Sasuke had moved quite a bit from where they were standing when it supposedly began.
Jiraiya wasting his moves on Genjutsu when he's well versed in breaking it, has two partners and his resistance to it has gone up a lot is hilarious. Itachi can feel free to halve his chakra all he likes but Jiraiya will know there's two Itachis by virtue of sensing them. 
Kakashi also kept up with Itachi's seal speed and Taijutsu fine post time skip. Pardon me for being less than impressed against a much faster sensor than Kakashi.
Never mind Shima and Fukasaku need to clap their hands to use Frog Croak. And given the positions of the charging Summons before and after, it happens nigh instantly 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Cool story but why is Itachi not doing anything in any of your scenarios ? Its as if Itachi is standing still and Jiraya is testing his arsenal on him.


Just like every Uchiha fan believes happens in Itachi's fights!
How about we're discussing scenarios?


> Let me try one :
> Itachi spams shurikens and Jiraiya dies.


"Why do my shurikens bounce off their skin?"

Tell me, what is Itachi's defense to Frog Croak? One of the fastest moves Shima and Fukasaku seem to have and paralyzes the enemy?



> As far as I know, Itachi can execute his techniques much faster than Jiraiya so Jiraiya would be forced to defend most of the time.


Jiraiya doesn't even need handseals for Chou Oodama Rasengan and formed one while in midair. Shima and Fukasaku executed Frog Croak instantly judging by the positions of the before and after summons. And in Sage Mode, Jiraiya won't be left in the dirt in...oh...anything




> First off, how can Jiraiya prepare for the unknown ? And secondly, Itachi had 3 years aswell to prepare against the guardian of the Jinchuuriki he is after, how is that for a fanfic ?



Oh, goodie. How does Itachi know Jiraiya's abilities?
Jiraiya has:
A. Done research on Akatsuki and knows about members of it thanks to his keeping tabs on Orochimaru. He was well aware every member was an S-rank criminal and one of them with Itachi. He even warned Kakashi of this
B. He saw Itachi use Tsukuyomi. He also would've heard it from Kakashi
C. He saw Amaterasu and its aftereffects and sealed it for further study.

Itachi researched Jiraiya when? What moves has he seen?
Well, he must know something to believe he and Kisame would both have trouble...In fact? Let's ask Gottheim, from his translation of chapter 144:
Kisame: You should be able to take him down one one way or another, but I don't know how I'd fare.../We aren't in the same league.
Itachi: Yeah...If we face him, the both of us might get killled./Or we'll pull off a mutual strike down if we do well./...Even coming in greater numbers might not make much of a change.
Kisame: We thought we'd finally found him at the ramen shop... But his baby-sitter just had to be one of the Legendary Sannin./Even the names of Konoha's Uchiha clan and that of the Seven Shinobi Swordsmen of the Mist pale before an adversary like him.

So, Kisame admits Jiraiya is in a different league than him. Itachi's response is "Yeah, we might both die but we might take him as well."
How much more did you want Kishimoto to hype up Jiraiya? Sounds like he's giving him equal praise that Itachi got. And there's zero proof Itachi was sick at this point. 

And if you don't fancy Gottheim, here's NJT:

Kisame: He's good. (lit would be he's a higher level then me)
Itachi: hmmm...
We would either both be killed or
It would be a draw.




> Sure, If Itachi takes a punch to the face from HM Jiraiya he will be done for, but that has a very low chance of happening since : he has sharingan prediction, he will be one step ahead of Jiraiya at all times and he can summon susano'o at will, faster than a lightning can strike, so no, unless Itachi is out of chakra or anything(which will never happen because Itachi can finish Jiraiya off long before that) Jiraiya can't touch him.
> But also consider that a kunai to the eyeball will kill or incapacitate Jiraiya  whether he is in HM or not, and thats the kind of shit Itachi uses in close encounters.


Evidence? Jiraiya's entire body is rendered much more durable, there's no evidence that a freakung kunai will so much as scratch him givne what broke off on Naruto.
And sure, he can summon susanoo. With ample warning, sure. When Sasuke rambles on for a minute or two, he cam prepare. In a straight, close quarters fight, please. If Itachi tries Taijutsu, he can't even block before a hit from Jiraiya will splinter his bones. Shima and Fukasaku can nail him at close range with katons or their tongues. Or with Frog Croak.

Tell me, what prevents them from using Frog Croak right off like they did on Pain in round two? It'll work fine on Itach

Hilarious overhyping of Itachi's abilities, too, when Kakashi, someone way slower than Sage Mode Jiraiya kept up with him in Taijutsu. 

And evidence Sage Mode increases speed: Note the distance between Tsunade and the toads. Naruto is STANDING on one


So, Asura, a realm fast enough-when horrendously damaged and can barely move- to intercept Kakashi's Raikiri is attacking Tsunade. Inches from her


And Naruto crosses that entire distance before it can touch her to Rasengan it. No speed boosts, right?


----------



## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Susano'o can't take massive chakra consumption because Itachi was nearly out of chakra when he used it - especially when you said "...Itachi's notable weakness: his lack of chakra." If someone who you claim to have a low chakra pool is almost out to begin with, Susano'o would practically have no chakra to run itself with, and yet Itachi managed to use it long enough to defeat Orochimaru and reach Sasuke. In addition, there has been a suggestion that the bigger the object is, the more chakra it takes to seal away with the Totsuka Sword. If you buy into this theory, it further implies that Susano'o takes very little chakra to maintain.


Sasuke couldn't even maintain Susanoo on low chakra. Itachi was dying anyways and had nothing to lose there....you need chakra to form it, besides. And given Itachi can't even use his MS on thirty percent safely...it was consuming his life force at that point, so it's unclear if one can draw on one more than the other, but we've seen it costs chakra. When Sasuke couldn't even keep Susanoo up, he was still capable of using Chidori to boot




JustPimpin said:


> You really can't say that's all he used because prior to the Uchiha showdown Itachi made a clone and gave its power to Naruto.
> 
> Wouldn't that make him only at 50% at the start of the Sasuke fight, not to mention the power that he gave Naruto might never have came back to him (or something like that)



 Itachi had a long time to *rest before Sasuke even reached the Uchiha hideout*.
He had two Karasu bunshin for Naruto and Sasuke. The real Itachi was parked in a chair, waiting for Sasuke, who arrived some time later. Enough time for Jiraiya to enter Rain and get killed by Pain before Zetsu rushed off to Itachi's fight.

Chakra does not take that long to recover


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## Jinnobi (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Sasuke couldn't even maintain Susanoo on low chakra. Itachi was dying anyways and had nothing to lose there....you need chakra to form it, besides. And given Itachi can't even use his MS on thirty percent safely...it was consuming his life force at that point, so it's unclear if one can draw on one more than the other, but we've seen it costs chakra. When Sasuke couldn't even keep Susanoo up, he was still capable of using Chidori to boot



Susano'o does not take massive chakra.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Senjutsu is essentially nothing more than a more potent Ninjutsu/Genjutsu/Taijutsu technique. Since it is qualitatively the exact same thing as regular Genjutsu, just stronger, it stands to reason that it follows the same rules as regular Genjutsu.


Except if you're not a Sage, then the Senjutus will paralyze you.
It's stated to paralyze anyone who hears it. Jiraiya was fine.

Meaning either Sages have immunity...OR Jiraiya's Genjutsu abilities were raised to such an incredible point where genjutsu can't touch him

And since it immediately paralyzes the mind, then Itachi shouldn't even be able to think of a solution



> What are the rules for breaking regular Genjutsu (with a Doujutsu)? You either need the better weapon, or significantly better skill than your adversary to compensate. Itachi's Sharingan is undoubtedly better than...regular toad eyes. And it's safe to say that as far as feats are concerned, Itachi being able to alter space, mass, and even temporal perception are all abilities that far outstrip mere paralysis, however thorough...


Yeah, good thing toads don't use their eyes to use Genjutsu.
And practicality is something nice. If Frog Song uses a chakra Itachi cannot handle to bolster it, and it instantly prevent shim from doing anything?



> I mean, this is the guy who possesses the Genjutsu stated to be the strongest in the series. Bring up Izanagi if you want, but at least recognize this: At the very least, Tsukuyomi AND Izanagi boast this title. Magen: Gamarinshou does not, and never did. It isn't in the same league as either Genjutsu. Yeah, it's powerful because it's Senjutsu Genjutsu, but you're comparing a non-Doujutsu Kanashibari no Genjutsu to a Doujutsu Genjutsu of- of all things -not just Sharingan, but _Mangekyou_ Sharingan.


I'm unaware of any omniscient up to date source that's stated Frog Song to be weaker. Zetsu didn't even see Frog Song as Jiraiya would've sensed him nearby via natural energy and Zetsu would've remained paralyzed as well. Madara certainly never has. 
We've seen Tsukuyomi can be broken, too. Nothing's broken Frog Song. Probably because there are two sages only. 




> There is hardly any reason to assume Itachi could not handle Magen: Gamarinshou.


Senjutus, instantly paralyzed mind.
Tell me, when did Itachi ever handle a really strong Genjutsu? Something that outstrips Sasuke and Kurenai?




> You say he can, yet neglect to mention how. Jiraiya is strong, but that doesn't mean he's untouchable.


Oh, the irony.




> Considering Pain's chakra rods, which Tendou and Kakashi could break with their bare hands, were able to pierce both Sennin Jiraiya AND Sennin Naruto (as well as Fukasaku), it's safe to say a shuriken would.


You are aware something can be brittle, but still very sharp and having piercing power, right? Sage Mode enhances durability to psychotic amounts.

Sage Mode Jiraiya was rammed by the enormous Ram summon. Nothing. Naruto caught the enormous Rhino summon, his body suffered no ill effects. Naruto in Sage Mode fell from a large distance onto sharp rocks. The rocks broke. 

Head first onto sharp rocks protruding out?
He didn't even feel it. 
So, evidence Kunai will work or shuriken will even work? Do we even know how sharp and piercing the chakra rods are? Given they lanced through Sage Mode skin like butter?




> Your entire premise is wrapped around the assumption that he gets hit by it. IIRC, it's listed as a Ninjutsu, so this question is tantamount to "What happens if he gets hit with Chou Oodama Rasengan?"


Umm, no shit. It's also a jutu he has no knowledge of, means of nullifying without blinding himself-and still no way to get out- or really avoiding if Jiraiya uses a brain cell



> If he gets hit, that's a bad day. The object is not to get hit, though.


Yeah, this isn't a projectile or a weapon. It literally turns the earth beneath him into ensnaring mud that sinks him instantly




> "Instantly" isn't defined, so that means nothing. Somehow, I doubt the guy who can think during the span of a millisecond is going to have any trouble reacting to a Jutsu that...isn't lightning.


He can form Susanoo. That doesn't mean Itachi's actual body can move to react to lightning or attacks his opponent didn't stupidly warn him about.
If there was literally other means for Itachi to avoid Kirin, he would've done so. He even says if not for Susanoo, he'd have been obliterated




> Itachi just needs to swipe a patch of mud beneath himself, and then he can't sink into it because it's just regular mud. From there, he can pave a swath to dry land.


Yeah, I don't think you get how Yomi Numa even works. The entire ground beneath him, as much as Jiraiya wants, and he can make it huge or a mile deep if he feels like it, is ensnaring mud that sucks you under. You can't walk over it with something else. That'll be sucked in, too. And how'll he 'swipe a patch of mud' beneath himself when that's exactly what's turning into his enemy?




> No, not really. But I like how you wear your Itachi hate as a badge while still trying to maintain the illusion of being objective.



and your hatred of anything that isn't Itachi? While ignoring anything that can weaken him? Stop throwing the bias card around. It really isn't one someone who thinks Itachi could solo the sannin should play. 

Still waiting for Itachi's answer to Frog Croak. Would his Sharingan have let him divine the future so he knows to cover his ears? Oh, wait, he can't possibly know what they're using, so if they use it, he's kind of in trouble, isn't he?

And despising the invincible, infallible god Itachi's been turned into by Uchiah fans  =/= hating Itachi. I'm mroe a fan of the ACTUAL Itachi: the one who's one of the top in the series, but isn't invincible. The much more deep and fascinating character of the well intentioned extremist who'd sacrifice everything for peace, including his brother's love, but never stopped to think what his brother even wanted. 
Y'know, rather than the one who could effortlessly destroy Pain and the rest of Akatsuki together, was right about everything and it's totally Sasuke's fault for not avoiding that mental trauma 



Jinnobi said:


> Susano'o does not take massive chakra.



Sasuke is showing it costs enough to maintain


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## Paranoid Android (May 25, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Because he's not Orochimaru?



you have to be orochimaru to substitute out of the way of fire?


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## Jinnobi (May 25, 2010)

Paranoid Android said:


> you have to be orochimaru to substitute out of the way of fire?



You have to know Orochimaru's jutsu to use the ability that Sasuke used to escape Amaretsu.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Because one cannot' substitute or use bunshin feints obviously?

Jinnobi, are you going to even try to have an extended talk before dismissing everyone as intellectual ants this time?


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## Atlantic Storm (May 25, 2010)

I doubt regular Substitutions or Bushin feints would work against Itachi.

Substitution is essentially you rushing towards a nearby object at high speeds and replacing it with yourself so instead of you getting hit, it's the object. Amaterasu is too fast for that to work.


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## Senjuclan (May 25, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I doubt regular Substitutions or Bushin feints would work against Itachi.
> 
> Substitution is essentially you rushing towards a nearby object at high speeds and replacing it with yourself so instead of you getting hit, it's the object. Amaterasu is too fast for that to work.



Funny how Kakashi used a bunshin feint to defeat Itachi in the shouten fight. Amaterasu is too fast? Huh? Let's see:

1. Sasuke outran it
2. Gaara blocked it with sand

Talk about too fast, right!!!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Funny how Kakashi used a bunshin feint to defeat Itachi in the shouten fight.



Thank you. Itachi with 30% of his power was beaten with said feint.



> Amaterasu is too fast? Huh? Let's see:
> 
> 1. Sasuke outran it
> 2. Gaara blocked it with sand
> ...



Its considered to be a short ranged jutsu-- probably from what we can gather ''too fast'' when another is by Itachi in a distance considered to be 'short' in the mange (5m); in that case, yes. It is too fast.

Sasuke and Gaara were likely beyond 5m from the caster.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I doubt regular Substitutions or Bushin feints would work against Itachi.
> 
> Substitution is essentially you rushing towards a nearby object at high speeds and replacing it with yourself so instead of you getting hit, it's the object. Amaterasu is too fast for that to work.



We saw Kakashi substitute early on when he was being held captive.

And stop with this '30 percent power' stuff. Itachi had the same strength and speed he would normally.


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## Jinnobi (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Itachi had the same strength and speed he would normally.



Kisame said that those clones had less strength and chakra.


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## Aoshi (May 25, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Kisame said that those clones had less strength and chakra.



Manga page please. I don't recall him ever saying that, but then again, you may be correct.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

That is because an Itachi with less chakra is less powerful than an Itachi with full power. Kisame has so much chakra, 30 percent is like fighting a full Kisame.

It doesn't change that Itachi's speed and strength were unchanged.

TitanKid: He states their strength and jutsu is affected in proportion to the chakra used, but the databook clarifies


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## Atlantic Storm (May 25, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Funny how Kakashi used a bunshin feint to defeat Itachi in the shouten fight. Amaterasu is too fast? Huh? Let's see:
> 
> 1. Sasuke outran it
> 2. Gaara blocked it with sand
> ...



Gaara's sand was also fast and strong enough to intercept "V2" Raiton Shroud Raikage and Sasuke is very fast, and his speed was further boosted by "CS1.5". Besides he got caught eventually.



Lightysnake said:


> We saw Kakashi substitute early on when he was being held captive.



That's completely different. Those two were essentially fodder compared to Kakashi.


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## Tengu (May 25, 2010)

I just don't see how Jiraiya could survive Tsukuiomy, Amaterasu or Susanoó, those techniques are just to haxx.
If Jiraiya looks in Itachi's eyes, bam 72 hours of torment, if he doesn't look into his eyes, Itachi can just burn him with Amaterasu, and with Susanoó he is pretty much invincible, well to Jiraiya at least.


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## Vergil642 (May 25, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> Obviously because GENJUTSU ISN'T NEARLY AS STRONG AS SOMEONE DIRECTLY PUMPING HIS CHAKRA INTO YOU THROUGH A DEVICE DESIGNED EXACTLY FOR THAT PURPOSE.



True, Genjutsu is however far better at fine control and requires skill to break.



> I mean Pain can control dead bodies through that thing for fuck's sake.Genjutsu is insignificant next to that.



Genjutsu can control a person by controlling what they see. They have different applications.



> For the record:Kakashi has complete mastery over his sharingan and is pretty proeficient in genjutsu,and he was completely fucked just by being _grazed_ by one of those things.



Grazed? I think you mean got his shoulder stabbed by one.



Senjuclan said:


> Funny how Kakashi used a bunshin feint to defeat Itachi in the shouten fight. Amaterasu is too fast? Huh? Let's see:
> 
> 1. Sasuke outran it
> 2. Gaara blocked it with sand
> ...



We saw Kakashi hide underground and let a KB then attack Itachi while he stayed hidden. This is not a Kawarimi or any sort of variation of it.

Itachi, both in his persona as a villain and in his real nature, was being very careful to hit Sasuke in a very specific way. In his persona as a villain he was aiming to avoid destroying Sasuke's eyes, Zetsu points this out just after Sasuke's body gets half incinerated. In his real nature he would want to give Sasuke as much an opportunity to escape as humanly possible (he doesn't want to kill him after all). For both reasons he would not immediately incinerate Sasuke.

Gaara didn't block Amaterasu with his sand, he blocked Kagatsuchi. Amaterasu ignites on what the user's eye is focused, Kagatsuchi manipulates the black flames; Gaara's sand moved between Raikage and the black flames before the two collided. Similarly it blocked LoS before any Amaterasu was used and generally acted as a shield against the black flames Sasuke was manipulating. It has never managed to block LoS as Sasuke or anyone else attempted to ignite the flames using Amaterasu directly. The closest it's got to that is blocking LoS before this process even began.


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## Senjuclan (May 25, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Thank you. Itachi with 30% of his power was beaten with said feint.



You do not need more chakra to realize that your foe used a substitution jutsu. Itachi had the sharingan. MS would not have helped him realize that Kakashi was hiding. Your point is moot.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its considered to be a short ranged jutsu-- probably from what we can gather ''too fast'' when another is by Itachi in a distance considered to be 'short' in the mange (5m); in that case, yes. It is too fast.



So, you are saying that susano'o speed slows the further you go from the caster? Is that your point?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke and Gaara were likely beyond 5m from the caster.



Of COurse!!! LOL



Jinnobi said:


> Kisame said that those clones had less strength and chakra.



Last time I checked more strength and chakra do not help you realize that you were tricked. 



Atlantic Storm said:


> Gaara's sand was also fast and strong enough to intercept "V2" Raiton Shroud Raikage and Sasuke is very fast, and his speed was further boosted by "CS1.5". Besides he got caught eventually.



So, the point is that amaterasu can be reacted. You know who else reacted to it? The freaking huge ass hachibi. It put one of its tentacles in front of its face before amaterasu hit it. Talk about fast


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Yeah, has Amaterasu ever been used on an intended victim and they couldn't react?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> You do not need more chakra to realize that your foe used a substitution jutsu. Itachi had the sharingan. MS would not have helped him realize that Kakashi was hiding. Your point is moot.



Its implied Orochimaru's particular substitution is hard to detect.




> So, you are saying that susano'o speed slows the further you go from the caster? Is that your point?



Nope. Just saying if you're at most 5m away from the caster-- Amaterasu's unavoidable.

Susano-o doesn't slow anyone down-- Sasuke showed that.



> Of COurse!!! LOL



Right; you're sarky remark makes so much sense when I'm trying to keep facts consistent when you don't seem to be doing the same.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its implied Orochimaru's particular substitution is hard to detect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Susanoo doesn't slow you down if you can handle it. Itachi's stamina?

And Orochimaru's technique is literally creating a new body. It's not substitution


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## Senjuclan (May 25, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its implied Orochimaru's particular substitution is hard to detect.



Kakashi used a simple substitution. He hid his body with doton and left a kage bunshin behind. What does any of this got to do with Orochimaru?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nope. Just saying if you're at most 5m away from the caster-- Amaterasu's unavoidable.



You are just going to make up something. Why am I not surprised?  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Susano-o doesn't slow anyone down-- Sasuke showed that.



Sorry meant amaterasu



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Right; you're sarky remark makes so much sense when I'm trying to keep facts consistent when you don't seem to be doing the same.



You mean when you are trying to find excuses for Itachi, right? Has amaterasu ever been used on someone within 5 meters of Itachi or Sasuke? If not based on what is your comment that is unavoidable based?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

We've already been shown Amaterasu's not unavoidable besides


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Hello, Sennin Mode...look at the boost it gave NARUTO


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Hello, Sennin Mode...look at the boost it gave NARUTO



Naruto isn't Jiraiya.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Ummm...my point being:

It gave Naruto an enormous speed boost. Why would it fail to do the same for Jiraiya?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Ummm...my point being:
> 
> It gave Naruto an enormous speed boost. Why would it fail to do the same for Jiraiya?



Because Jiraiya has the _exact_ benefits Naruto attains--- amirite?


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## Thunder (May 25, 2010)

We have seen Sasuke running from _Amateratsu_ before it eventually got him. It isn't unavoidable. Jiraiya can make _Kage Bunshins_ anyway.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

So Sage Mode will give one person a huge speed boost and not another?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Kakashi used a simple substitution. He hid his body with doton and left a kage bunshin behind. What does any of this got to do with Orochimaru?



Read the page and comprehend the implication.



> You are just going to make up something. Why am I not surprised?



Says the guy who thinks the Susano'o only seals souls...



> You mean when you are trying to find excuses for Itachi, right?



Mention my username and ask any Itachi fan the above; you'll be shocked.



> Has amaterasu ever been used on someone within 5 meters of Itachi or Sasuke? If not based on what is your comment that is unavoidable based?



Most have been rather far when Amaterasu was cast; save Danzo and....



Lightysnake said:


> So Sage Mode will give one person a huge speed boost and not another?



So Jiraiya has Naruto level mastery of SM?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

We have seen a great enhancement of Jiriaya's physical abilities in Sage Mode.
Is there any evidence his speed has remained the same? ANY?


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## Senjuclan (May 25, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Read the page and comprehend the implication.



What kind of bullshit answer is this. Itachi hid with doton and tricked Itachi. If you have a counterpoint, make it. Otherwise do not waste my time.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Says the guy who thinks the Susano'o only seals souls...



It is what Kishi said. Sorry but some of us actually prefer the author's words to the musings of NF posters



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Mention my username and ask any Itachi fan the above; you'll be shocked.



I don't care about your reputation. You are making excuses for Itachi, that stays true regardless of what your reputation is. Seriously, you are very frustrating to have an argument with. You always bring up meaningless shit



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Most have been rather far when Amaterasu was cast; save Danzo and....



So, how did you conclude that it was unavoidable at 5 meters or less? Did you just make it up AGAIN?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> We have seen a great enhancement of Jiriaya's physical abilities in Sage Mode.
> Is there any evidence his speed has remained the same? ANY?



So you're trying to say Jiraiya SM=Naruto SM.



Senjuclan said:


> What kind of bullshit answer is this. Itachi hid with doton and tricked Itachi. If you have a counterpoint, make it. Otherwise do not waste my time.



Read the scan I provided. See the implications regarding Oro's substitution.



> It is what Kishi said. Sorry but some of us actually prefer the author's words to the musings of NF posters



Kishi said that. But that's how _you_ interpret that.
Sorry if I'm not entirely convinced; especially since the manga shows inanimate objects {jutsu and a sword} get sealed as well. Then your counterargument contradicts your initial point.



> I don't care about your reputation. You are making excuses for Itachi, that stays true regardless of what your reputation is. Seriously, you are very frustrating to have an argument with. You always bring up meaningless shit



You sure seemed like you did when you accused me of finding excuses for Itachi.

I can say you're trying to make excuses so people don't claim Jiraiya gets stomped horribly by Susano'o; but I'm not pointing fingers as you are now. =]



> So, how did you conclude that it was unavoidable at 5 meters or less? Did you just make it up AGAIN?



Logic helps. Your minor flames show me how much confidence you have in your argument.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

No, I am saying that if Naruto's physical abilities are enhanced, so are Jiraiya's. As SM is said to do


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## Senjuclan (May 25, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Read the scan I provided. See the implications regarding Oro's substitution.



Are you always this annoying to argue with? Let me remind you what the point we are arguing is:

My Original Post:


Senjuclan said:


> Originally Posted by Senjuclan
> Funny how Kakashi used a bunshin feint to defeat Itachi in the shouten fight.



Your reply:


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Thank you. Itachi with 30% of his power was beaten with said feint.



However, you keep bringing up Orochimaru. Kakashi does not have Orochimaru's substitution jutsu, why do you bring this up?????



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kishi said that. But that's how _you_ interpret that.
> Sorry if I'm not entirely convinced; especially since the manga shows inanimate objects {jutsu and a sword} get sealed as well. Then your counterargument contradicts your initial point.



Look, I understand if you want to stick to your points but they are wrong. Yamata is Orochimaru transformed into a snake. The jutsu is the power to transform not yamata. So, Orochimaru was sealed. The sword, there is no proof that it was sealed. However, if it was I surmise that is because it was on Orochimaru. You guys have no proof that it was sealed though.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You sure seemed like you did when you accused me of finding excuses for Itachi.



Again, if the hat fits wear it. The point is you are making up excuses for Itachi. Case closed



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I can say you're trying to make excuses so people don't claim Jiraiya gets stomped horribly by Susano'o; but I'm not pointing fingers as you are now. =]



You can say it if I am doing that. However, I am not. I have not brought up Jiraiya in our argument, have I? 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Logic helps. Your minor flames show me how much confidence you have in your argument.



Way to avoid the question. Let me ask again, how did you come to the conclusion that it is unavoidable at 5 meters or less?


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## Final Jutsu (May 25, 2010)

Jiraiya since he starts in HM.  Swamp for susanoo, bunshins for amaterasu, ma/pa for genjutsu(not to mention his own breaking capabilities), summons, etc.


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## Paranoid Android (May 25, 2010)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> I just don't see how Jiraiya could survive Tsukuiomy, Amaterasu or Susano?, those techniques are just to haxx.
> If Jiraiya looks in Itachi's eyes, bam 72 hours of torment, if he doesn't look into his eyes, Itachi can just burn him with Amaterasu, and with Susano? he is pretty much invincible, well to Jiraiya at least.


 you crazy? In sage mode, there are 2 other minds plus his own to dispell the genjutsu. It's been proven that Amaterasu can be dodged, slowed by anything that isn't your body part, or substituted out of. Jiraiya has multiple ways to deal with this. Summon a gigantic stone frog and then jump out of the way, or set up a substitute.

Jiraiya has more chakra than itachi and do you think that susanoo is easy to maintain? jiraiya in sage mode, because of shima and fukasaku, has pretty much unlimited chakra. he'll outlast itachi and catch him slipping after he cant maintain all of his expensive shit.


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## the box (May 25, 2010)

Ra said:


> Ninja's can walk on liquid.



he cant walk on something that sucks him in -_-


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Funny thing about the swamp? Human Realm ran on it on the sealing. With chakra on his feet.

Still got sucked in


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## Marsala (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Funny thing about the swamp? Human Realm ran on it on the sealing. With chakra on his feet.
> 
> Still got sucked in



No, he jumped to the ceiling on all fours to avoid the fire and was caught off guard by the ceiling being a swamp instead of solid. Plus he was _blind_ at the time.

Face it: if Swamp of the Underworld was the super-powerful trump card it's been made out to be, Jiraiya would have used it as much more than a last-second distraction in the Pain battle. Really, why wouldn't Jiraiya have just turned the whole battlefield into a swamp and tried to sink all three Pains at once?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

How many fights has Jiraiya had at full power?
Hmm...grand total'a one. 

And Jiraiya was kind of unaware of their powers and testing them. And it might be bad to use a Jutsu *your opponent also knows and who can just use high level Raitons as well*.

Kind of hard to use it on a guy who:
A. Knows the Jutsu and would know the appropriate countermeasure
B. Who has mastered every chakra alteration there is.

Jiraiya thought he was fighting Nagato. He was uneasy, yeah, but using a Jutsu he'd already taught Nagato when Nagato can counter literally any elemental jutsu and more besides seems counterproductive at best. He only used it when he realized they could only use one technique and set it up as a trap beforehand


And look at the sound effect: 'Stepping.'

I think the anime clears that up, too


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## Nikushimi (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Except if you're not a Sage, then the Senjutus will paralyze you.
> It's stated to paralyze anyone who hears it. Jiraiya was fine.
> 
> Meaning either Sages have immunity...OR Jiraiya's Genjutsu abilities were raised to such an incredible point where genjutsu can't touch him



The Ni Dai Sennin were in control of the Genjutsu. It stands to reason they would be able to exclude whomever they want from its effects. Otherwise, why wouldn't they themselves fall victim to their own duet? It's speculation, but it's plausible that Jiraiya was affected, and they broke him out.



> And since it immediately paralyzes the mind, then Itachi shouldn't even be able to think of a solution



Genjutsu does all kinds of shit to the mind. The object is to shrug it off, which Itachi should be more than capable of doing given how powerful he is. More importantly, the nature of "mental paralysis" is not explained. Technically, if a person's brain were to cease functioning, they would be dead. 



> Yeah, good thing toads don't use their eyes to use Genjutsu.



If they don't use their eyes, then they don't even have a weapon. It is bare hands versus shuriken, and they certainly do not have enough skill to compensate for such a gap. It is an incredible leap to assume they are more skillfull than Itachi at all, let alone to such a degree.



> And practicality is something nice. If Frog Song uses a chakra Itachi cannot handle to bolster it, and it instantly prevent shim from doing anything?



You're just assuming things again. There's nothing to suggest he can't handle Sennin chakra. It's just augmented chakra, supposedly with the same properties and rules as regular chakra.



> I'm unaware of any omniscient up to date source that's stated Frog Song to be weaker. Zetsu didn't even see Frog Song as Jiraiya would've sensed him nearby via natural energy and Zetsu would've remained paralyzed as well. Madara certainly never has.



Um, Zetsu WAS watching the Pain vs. Jiraiya fight, and was using Kagerou, so it presumably wouldn't have affected him. After that, he still said Tsukuyomi was the strongest. You can't get around this one with the usual weaseling.



> We've seen Tsukuyomi can be broken, too. Nothing's broken Frog Song. Probably because there are two sages only.



Probably because the only opponent we've seen it used on had no notable Genjutsu proficiency. 

For that matter, why are you using Sasuke to knock Tsukuyomi? On top of actually having the stated prerequisites to break it (Sharingan and the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai), Itachi was also jobbing to him. Not only that, but Sasuke is someone who overpowered Orochimaru's will and seized control of his entire inner-dimension. Even if it was totally legit, the fact that he broke it is not a knock on Tsukuyomi's power but a demonstration of Sasuke's.



> Senjutus, instantly paralyzed mind.
> Tell me, when did Itachi ever handle a really strong Genjutsu? Something that outstrips Sasuke and Kurenai?



Gee, I don't know. He uses them himself, so presumably he is capable of dealing with them as well. 

Seriously, do you listen to yourself? It's like you try to seize every gap in information you possibly can as a chance to argue Itachi will fail. Here's an idea: Find me a scan of someone actually stupid enough to trying using a Genjutsu on Itachi.

Oh wait, I can think of a few, ha ha...



> Oh, the irony.



How is it ironic? Jiraiya doesn't have Susano'o. He just has increased Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, and Genjutsu capabilities.



> You are aware something can be brittle, but still very sharp and having piercing power, right? Sage Mode enhances durability to psychotic amounts.
> 
> Sage Mode Jiraiya was rammed by the enormous Ram summon. Nothing. Naruto caught the enormous Rhino summon, his body suffered no ill effects. Naruto in Sage Mode fell from a large distance onto sharp rocks. The rocks broke.
> 
> ...



The fact that Kakashi can break them with his bare hand proves they are not as hard as kunai or shuriken. Yet again, you are fighting a lost cause simply for the sake of fighting, rather than accepting the obvious. Yes, Sennin Moodo is incredibly durable. That does not mean it is immune to damage from guys like Kakashi and Itachi who have strength exceeding Part I Lee, who was casually ripping up tree roots bigger than his own body with a single arm. These guys are superhumanly strong as well; Sennin Moodo users are just decently stronger. It's absolutely no surprise that they would still sustain damage from them.

For one thing, Itachi and Sasuke were *breaking* eachother's shuriken, they were throwing them so hard.



> Umm, no shit. It's also a jutu he has no knowledge of, means of nullifying without blinding himself-and still no way to get out- or really avoiding if Jiraiya uses a brain cell



Clone feint, shuriken spam, Shunshin, Katon... Take your pick. Any one of these would disrupt the Ni Dai Sennin trying to yell at him.



> Yeah, this isn't a projectile or a weapon. It literally turns the earth beneath him into ensnaring mud that sinks him instantly



It doesn't sink instantly, nor is it bottomless; when influenced by Tsunade's drug, the Yomi Numa made by Jiraiya wasn't big enough to sink Orochimaru's fodder snake summon. When used on Ningendou, it only sucked it up to the elbows when it landed. For that matter, it won't do any sucking as long as Itachi passes the Yata no Kagami beneath himself. And since Itachi has Sharingan, he can read Jiraiya's hand-seals and anticipate when he is going to use it, counterattacking accordingly.



> He can form Susanoo. That doesn't mean Itachi's actual body can move to react to lightning or attacks his opponent didn't stupidly warn him about.
> If there was literally other means for Itachi to avoid Kirin, he would've done so. He even says if not for Susanoo, he'd have been obliterated



I never said he could do something like that without Susano'o. But Jiraiya has nothing even remotely comparable to Kirin, so it's irrelevant. The point is, Itachi should have no trouble keeping track of everything Jiraiya does in this fight. Neither of them have a significant speed advantage over the other, and if anything, Itachi's reactions are superior thanks to Sharingan.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 25, 2010)

> Yeah, I don't think you get how Yomi Numa even works. The entire ground beneath him, as much as Jiraiya wants, and he can make it huge or a mile deep if he feels like it, is ensnaring mud that sucks you under. You can't walk over it with something else. That'll be sucked in, too. And how'll he 'swipe a patch of mud' beneath himself when that's exactly what's turning into his enemy?



If the Yata no Kagami swipes the patch of mud he's standing on, he will have a solid platform from which to proceed forward. Even if that patch eventually gets sucked under, he can get off of it before that happens.



> and your rabid hatred of anything that isn't Itachi while ignoring anything that can weaken him



Okay, I'm sick of this shit. Yes, I'm an Itachi fan, and I tend to see what he can do more than what he can't do. But you take it to the opposite end of the fucking spectrum and challenge him at every turn, always saying he can't, never saying he can. Wherever there is a gap in information, or even simply a lack of absolute confirmation, you will dig your feet in and argue that Itachi fails every step of the way. From suggesting that Chou Oodama Rasengan could break Susano'o to arguing that kunai and shuriken couldn't pierce the Ni Dai Sennin's skin, it is just one thing after another. There is fan bias and then there is clear denial of a character's ability, you are exhibiting the latter.

Itachi would never have made it as far as he did in the manga if he were truly as weak as you suggest he is, nor would anyone regard him as such a dangerous or powerful opponent. I mean when you start arguing that a giant Rasengan can break Susano'o and that J-man can just wade through a hailstorm of shuriken with impunity, that's when it is clear something is terribly, terribly wrong with your interpretation of the manga.



> Still waiting for Itachi's answer to Frog Croak. Would his Sharingan have let him divine the future so he knows to cover his ears? Oh, wait, he can't possibly know what they're using, so if they use it, he's kind of in trouble, isn't he?



Sharingan would allow him to predict what they are about to do. It detects and predicts the initial signs of bodily movement. When Sasuke first activated it against Naruto, Kishimoto illustrates it as the Sharingan user seeing the attack at a later point in its path before it is actually there.

All Itachi really needs to do to counter being yelled at is launch a ranged attack at them. Throwing weapons, Katons, or possibly Shunshin back a bit depending on what the range is. Hell a clone feint always seems to work if you time it right.



> And despising the invincible, infallible god Itachi's been turned into by Uchiah fans  =/= hating Itachi. I'm mroe a fan of the ACTUAL Itachi: the one who's one of the top in the series, but isn't invincible. The much more deep and fascinating character of the well intentioned extremist who'd sacrifice everything for peace, including his brother's love, but never stopped to think what his brother even wanted.
> Y'know, rather than the one who could effortlessly destroy Pain and the rest of Akatsuki together, was right about everything and it's totally Sasuke's fault for not avoiding that mental trauma



You're a fan of an Itachi you invented, the good little dog who is only worth as much as you say he is, or however much is convenient for making you seem right in a debate. Whatever aligns with the argument of choice you happen to be espousing. And to you, someone like me is just a rabid Itachi fan who thinks Itachi cannot be beaten, that he is more powerful than anyone.

The manga makes it clear as day: Uchiha Itachi, when suffering from a terminal disease and fighting with the intention of losing, was able to defeat Hebi Sasuke and then Orochimaru in immediate succession. Zetsu states that not only did Susano'o make him completely invincible, that his Tsukuyomi was the strongest Genjutsu, and that his Amaterasu was the strongest physical attack/offensive Ninjutsu, but after it had all been put out in the open, he also stated that it still was noticeably inferior to his true power, which we did not get the benefit of seeing.

Itachi is not someone who would lose to Jiraiya, and certainly not someone as wholesomely impotent as you would have us all believe he is. Your concept of Itachi is not the rational middleground, it is more accurately described as the belief of some unholy Bizarro Nikushimi, yet quite possibly even further to the extreme than my own point of view.

Oh, and one more thing: Itachi is not a well-intentioned extremist. He is a hero. Stated.


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## Jinnobi (May 25, 2010)

/thread

Above post is a win


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## Nikushimi (May 25, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> /thread
> 
> Above post is a win



No, not yet:

"Tsukuyomi, GG."

That's really all that needs to be said here.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> The Ni Dai Sennin were in control of the Genjutsu. It stands to reason they would be able to exclude whomever they want from its effects. Otherwise, why wouldn't they themselves fall victim to their own duet? It's speculation, but it's plausible that Jiraiya was affected, and they broke him out.


The databook states *whoever* hears it is caught. No exception for where they want to direct it. IF you have in manga or databook evidence, provide it




> Genjutsu does all kinds of shit to the mind. The object is to shrug it off, which Itachi should be more than capable of doing given how powerful he is. More importantly, the nature of "mental paralysis" is not explained. Technically, if a person's brain were to cease functioning, they would be dead.


Or they just can't think. Their minds are stated to be paralyzed.
Regardless, there is no evidence of Itachi dealing with a Senjutus bolstered Genjutsu




> If they don't use their eyes, then they don't even have a weapon. It is bare hands versus shuriken, and they certainly do not have enough skill to compensate for such a gap. It is an incredible leap to assume they are more skillfull than Itachi at all, let alone to such a degree.


They use auditory Genjutsu, their voices. They happen to croak this one.
So now we state one needs special magic eyes to even be passable in Genjutsu? Please




> You're just assuming things again. There's nothing to suggest he can't handle Sennin chakra. It's just augmented chakra, supposedly with the same properties and rules as regular chakra.


Manga evidence is still against you from unaffected Jiraiya and basic knowledge of Senjutsu.
Plus, augmented? Someone stronger than Itachi was apparently caught. 




> Um, Zetsu WAS watching the Pain vs. Jiraiya fight, and was using Kagerou, so it presumably wouldn't have affected him. After that, he still said Tsukuyomi was the strongest. You can't get around this one with the usual weaseling.


Nothing states usage of Kagero prevents one from being hit with something like Frog Song. The databook says specifically whoever hears it.
And pay attention please: Zetsu was only there at the end. Jiraiya and the Ni Dai Sennin can sense natural energy. He was not sense. He was not affected by Frog song. 
Evidenc ehe was there before Pain brought out all six bodies




> Probably because the only opponent we've seen it used on had no notable Genjutsu proficiency.


Only stated totla mastery of the source.
And Pain is stronger than Itachi anyways. With better eyes that are used to defeat nin, Tai and Gen.
Hm, not looking good for the golden boy with the ponytail



> For that matter, why are you using Sasuke to knock Tsukuyomi? On top of actually having the stated prerequisites to break it (Sharingan and the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai), Itachi was also jobbing to him. Not only that, but Sasuke is someone who overpowered Orochimaru's will and seized control of his entire inner-dimension. Even if it was totally legit, the fact that he broke it is not a knock on Tsukuyomi's power but a demonstration of Sasuke's.


Sasuke: Orochimaru was weak at the time. That's the whole story.

The same eyes as Itachi were used to mean Mangekyo. Zetsu couldn't understand at first how Sasuke broke it as he only had a normal Sharingan




> Gee, I don't know. He uses them himself, so presumably he is capable of dealing with them as well.


Itachi: USes them, is capable of dealing with them
Pain: Master of them. Can't deal with them

I'm noticing another double standard here


> Seriously, do you listen to yourself? It's like you try to seize every gap in information you possibly can as a chance to argue Itachi will fail. Here's an idea: Find me a scan of someone actually stupid enough to trying using a Genjutsu on Itachi.
> 
> Oh wait, I can think of a few, ha ha...


 You can show me a panel of Itachi resisting senjutsu or concede the point. I will accept either an admission you don't have one or such evidence


[qupte]
How is it ironic? Jiraiya doesn't have Susano'o. He just has increased Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, and Genjutsu capabilities.[/Quote]
"Itachi is strong. Not untouchable" 
Same standard we can apply





> The fact that Kakashi can break them with his bare hand proves they are not as hard as kunai or shuriken. Yet again, you are fighting a lost cause simply for the sake of fighting, rather than accepting the obvious. Yes, Sennin Moodo is incredibly durable. That does not mean it is immune to damage from guys like Kakashi and Itachi who have strength exceeding Part I Lee, who was casually ripping up tree roots bigger than his own body with a single arm. These guys are superhumanly strong as well; Sennin Moodo users are just decently stronger. It's absolutely no surprise that they would still sustain damage from them.


Base Lee didn't have strength far below Itachi's. and I dearly hope you're not suggesting he could even scratch someone in Sage Mode.
Shuriken simply don't penetrate. You're also dancing around the point and deciding something brittle can't have piercing power. One with enough strength could break a spear's shaft. That doesn't mean a thing to the sharpness of the point or the piercing power.

Kakashi and Itachi don't have any special durability to their skin alone. If they fell headfirst onto sharp rocks from a great height, they would die. The same cannot be said of a Sennin Mode user



> For one thing, Itachi and Sasuke were *breaking* eachother's shuriken, they were throwing them so hard.


Then by your logic, should be proof the kunai aren't that strong.
And they certainly don't have the same power to be as strong as a sharp rock you literally fall head first on from a great height




> Clone feint, shuriken spam, Shunshin, Katon... Take your pick. Any one of these would disrupt the Ni Dai Sennin trying to yell at him.


clone feint- Worthless. They sense him anyways
Shunshin- Worthless. He can't speedblitz Jiraiya in this form
Katon: Worthless. They're all Katon users and Jiraiya's a better one. 
Never mind that Jiraiya himself could easily deal with whatever Itachi tries. We've seen Shima and Fukasaku use Frog Croak basically instantly. And Itachi lacks any knowledge of it.
Is there an argument beyond him being able to just react to literally anything?


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

> It doesn't sink instantly, nor is it bottomless; when influenced by Tsunade's drug, the Yomi Numa made by Jiraiya wasn't big enough to sink Orochimaru's fodder snake summon. When used on Ningendou, it only sucked it up to the elbows when it landed. For that matter, it won't do any sucking as long as Itachi passes the Yata no Kagami beneath himself. And since Itachi has Sharingan, he can read Jiraiya's hand-seals and anticipate when he is going to use it, counterattacking accordingly.


For starters:
-When affected by Tsunade's drug. Jiraiya was able to sink a large snake partially with a large swamp. He referred to that as small. 
-Not instant? He made the seals, the ground instantly collapsed into Yomi Numa. There is no proof of any lag time
-Itachi can bunshin feint all he want, but Jiraiya can't when he's canonically done so to use Yomi Numa against Pain?
-When used on Human Path, Jiraiya only meant to sink it up to there. The databook states the technique is meant to completely submerge the enemy. He says he could fully sink the enormous snake if he wasn't under the drug's effect. 
-Know a seal doesn't correlate to knowing the nature of the move and what it'll do. Jiraiya can make the swamp as big as he wants. Never mind the Yata no Kagami can't cover everything, Susanoo as a whole'll still sink and all he nullifies is the mud touching the mirror. The rest can't move. 




> I never said he could do something like that without Susano'o. But Jiraiya has nothing even remotely comparable to Kirin, so it's irrelevant.


Chou Oodama Rasengan, judging by the databook's description is certainly comparable


> The point is, Itachi should have no trouble keeping track of everything Jiraiya does in this fight. Neither of them have a significant speed advantage over the other, and if anything, Itachi's reactions are superior thanks to Sharingan.


Please. Naruto went from a 3.5 capable of his incredible speed feats during the Pain fight. Jiraiya was a 4.5 in base. His speed would skyrocket



Nikushimi said:


> If the Yata no Kagami swipes the patch of mud he's standing on, he will have a solid platform from which to proceed forward. Even if that patch eventually gets sucked under, he can get off of it before that happens.


Before it even moves under him or summons Susanoo, that's it. Jiraiya isn't given to exposition to enemies. Especially as he'd just nail him with Frog Croak first, then sink him. 
And if he's standing on the mud at all, that's it. He'll sink right off. If it sank something enormous as a snake in a moment, a human sized target has no chance




> Okay, I'm sick of this shit. Yes, I'm an Itachi fan, and I tend to see what he can do more than what he can't do. But you take it to the opposite end of the fucking spectrum and challenge him at every turn, always saying he can't, never saying he can.


Falsehood. I have argued Itachi's victory on a number of occasions here.



> Wherever there is a gap in information, or even simply a lack of absolute confirmation, you will dig your feet in and argue that Itachi fails every step of the way. From suggesting that Chou Oodama Rasengan could break Susano'o to arguing that kunai and shuriken couldn't pierce the Ni Dai Sennin's skin, it is just one thing after another. There is fan bias and then there is clear denial of a character's ability, you are exhibiting the latter.


I refuse to get into a pissing contest here. I will nearly note that whenever it comes to a character you don't like-Pain, Jiraiya etc, you take any absence of evidence as absolute proof of absence when it'd give Itachi an advantage.

That's all I'm saying on that subject



> Itachi would never have made it as far as he did in the manga if he were truly as weak as you suggest he is, nor would anyone regard him as such a dangerous or powerful opponent. I mean when you start arguing that a giant Rasengan can break Susano'o and that J-man can just wade through a hailstorm of shuriken with impunity, that's when it is clear something is terribly, terribly wrong with your interpretation of the manga.


A hailstorm of Shuriken in a form so durable it doesn't even feel a huge drop onto sharp stones against simple metal kunai and shurikens? 
And Great Rasengan is stated to be able to hollow out a mountain. Susanoo is strong enough to tank that on it sown...how?
I never argue that Itachi isn't a dangerous or powerful opponent. Merely there are people who can take him. Some needing circumstances skewed, but? I think if you want to argue the manga, you might want to take everything into account. Notably:
Thanks to Gottheim:
Kisame: You should be able to take him down one one way or another, but I don't know how I'd fare.../We aren't in the same league.
Itachi: Yeah...If we face him, the both of us might get killled./Or we'll pull off a mutual strike down if we do well./...Even coming in greater numbers might not make much of a change.
Kisame: We thought we'd finally found him at the ramen shop... But his baby-sitter just had to be one of the Legendary Sannin./Even the names of Konoha's Uchiha clan and that of the Seven Shinobi Swordsmen of the Mist pale before an adversary like him.
Itachi: True... But....
Kisame: .......
Itachi: No matter how strong someone is, they'll have some kind of weakness....

NJT?

Kisame:
I don't know about me, but I'm pretty sure that you could have handled him.


He's good. (lit would be he's a higher level then me)

Itachi:
hmmm

We would either both be killed or
It would be a draw.

It wouldn't matter if we went in with more people or not.


We're lucky to have finally spotted him at the Ramen shop but


His guard is one of the "legendary 3 ninja's."

Having him as our opponent would make us look like nothing.*1




> Sharingan would allow him to predict what they are about to do. It detects and predicts the initial signs of bodily movement. When Sasuke first activated it against Naruto, Kishimoto illustrates it as the Sharingan user seeing the attack at a later point in its path before it is actually there.


And there are those the Sharingan has difficulty keeping up with. In Sennin mode, if the proportional boost holds true for Jiraiya's speed?



> All Itachi really needs to do to counter being yelled at is launch a ranged attack at them. Throwing weapons, Katons, or possibly Shunshin back a bit depending on what the range is. Hell a clone feint always seems to work if you time it right.


I continuously enjoy how Jiraiya and the hermits are so utterly amateurish they'll be taken out by the most basic of tricks in Itachi's hands. And that any strategy they've been shown to use is ignored and focuses on Jiraiya charging in.
there is no evidence a shuriken can even scratch them. On his own, Jiraiya is very strong and durable. In Sage Mode?
Clone feints don't work as these three can sense Itachi's location at all times, and what he's doing. Katons are kind of useles against the people capable of easily using higher level ones like Deep Fat Fryer.
Jiraiya's fast enough to keep up with any shunshin besides and he has Jutsu that are bad for Itachi there. Frog Croak would signal the end of the fight if it landed




> You're a fan of an Itachi you invented, the good little dog who is only worth as much as you say he is, or however much is convenient for making you seem right in a debate. Whatever aligns with the argument of choice you happen to be espousing. And to you, someone like me is just a rabid Itachi fan who thinks Itachi cannot be beaten, that he is more powerful than anyone.


I would think my views would be clear as I just stated them



> The manga makes it clear as day: Uchiha Itachi, when suffering from a terminal disease and fighting with the intention of losing, was able to defeat Hebi Sasuke and then Orochimaru in immediate succession.
> Zetsu states that not only did Susano'o make him completely invincible, that his Tsukuyomi was the strongest Genjutsu, and that his Amaterasu was the strongest physical attack/offensive Ninjutsu, but after it had all been put out in the open, he also stated that it still was noticeably inferior to his true power, which we did not get the benefit of seeing.



Good for Zetsu. Madara stated Pain as invincible when saying giving him a hard time was a testament to Jiraiya's skills. Fukasaku stated Pain was invincible without knowledge. The databook stated Pain was invincible. 

And Itachi with WAY more knowledge of his own abilities, with no evidence of any disease in part one, believed Jiraiya might be able to take him and Kisame both. Kisame even acknowledged Jiraiya as his better.



> Itachi is not someone who would lose to Jiraiya, and certainly not someone as wholesomely impotent as you would have us all believe he is. Your concept of Itachi is not the rational middleground, it is more accurately described as the belief of some unholy Bizarro Nikushimi, yet quite possibly even further to the extreme than my own point of view.


Itachi isn't? He himself seems to disagree.
No, he certainly is the type of person to lose to Jiraiya, as he stated it was fully possible.
Jiraiya's also the person who can lose to Itachi.
They can beat one another. But I've never seen an argument made from you that even acknowledges anyone can beat Itachi. Well, let's hear it then. Who can beat him? What's the list? 



> Oh, and one more thing: Itachi is not a well-intentioned extremist. He is a hero. Stated.


They are not mutually exclusive. A 'hero' is not necessarily a good person.
I consider someone who aids in the murder of innocents, puts a 12 year old boy in a trauma induced coma and orders warriors of the village he supposedly loves to be killed with no emotion to lack the tracks of a good person.


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## Jinnobi (May 25, 2010)

> I consider someone who aids in the murder of innocents, puts a 12 year old boy in a trauma induced coma and orders warriors of the village he supposedly loves to be killed with no emotion to lack the tracks of a good person.



You're ignoring the situation and the motive.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Oh, right, the 'situation?' He was scared that info on Akatsuki was leaked from Kakashi, which should be just what he wanted to begin with.

Motive? Of course, he wanted to make Sasuke hate him. You know. Make him abandon morality and embrace hatred. After he saw the freaking Cursed Seal on him from Orochimaru and knows Orochimaru wants a Sharingan.

Maybe Itachi's not immoral at times. Maybe he's just stupid.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 25, 2010)

Basically this is how I look at it:

Boiling it down to a battle of genjutsu, Frong Song > Tsukiyomi & rest of Itachi's techniques. Obviously because Itachi's genjutsu not only mostly require eye contact, but Jiraiya has not one but two partners to help out even should he be caught. By contrast once the frog song starts there is nothing that can be done to stop the effects unless one already knows of the technique (no one does) and covers their ears which would mean they can no longer perform ninjutsu and are wide open to taijutsu attacks. Also frog song has a larger attack range. Genjutsu: Edge, Jiraiya (ironically)

Itachi's next ultimate technique is Amaterasu. Unfortunately, Jiraiya posesses sealing skills adequate enough to deal with it and put it away. Itachi's 2nd powerful technique is also larglely nullified here. Edge: Jiraiya 

Taijutsu wise, I would put the two more or less on equal footing (Itachi seems to be slightly beter) were this Base Jiraiya but in HM Jiraiya is at least Itachi's equal although TBH he most likely is above his level in speed, strength, and durability. Edge: Again, Jiraiya.

Ninjutsu wise, Jiraiya has shown superiority with none but Pain and Orochimaru coming anywhere near his level. His jutsu are numerous, versatile, many with large areas of effect and the capability to subdue multiple targets. I'll throw summons into this category as well. Itachi is overwhelmingly outclassed. Edge: Jiraiya by a mile. 

Genjutsu wise, Taijutsu wise, and Ninjutsu wise, Jiraiya (HM) has the edge. In addition two of Itachi's best techniques are nerfed here Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi. However in spite of everything I've said above, I would place the odds for either winning at least 50/50 if not slightly in Itachi's favor, and the reason for that is one word: Susano. 

Itachi's Susano has a sword that's infinately dangerous, and Yata's mirror, purpotedly capable of withstanding any attack, on TOP OF the already amazing  protection the "body" provides just by itself. Conceivably nothing could get through both in succession. 

It all boils down to Frog Song vs Susano IMO, and at this point I would give 50/50 odds.


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## Nikushimi (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> The databook states *whoever* hears it is caught. No exception for where they want to direct it. IF you have in manga or databook evidence, provide it



So the Ni Dai Sennin themselves...? Presumably they would hear their own duet, wouldn't they? And Jiraiya? 



> Or they just can't think. Their minds are stated to be paralyzed.



There's no specification as to what that actually means. It says the body is paralyzed on a neural level, but what are its metaphysical effects like?

Either way, it's proven even something instant like Itachi's Tsukuyomi can be broken. Itachi should be able to instantly counter the effects of a Genjutsu inferior to his own Tsukuyomi.



> Regardless, there is no evidence of Itachi dealing with a Senjutus bolstered Genjutsu



Purely a matter of incidence. Itachi has never faced one. However, Senjutsu Genjutsu is still just Genjutsu, albeit significantly more powerful than the standard.



> They use auditory Genjutsu, their voices. They happen to croak this one.
> So now we state one needs special magic eyes to even be passable in Genjutsu? Please



One doesn't need it, but obviously Doujutsu (Sharingan especially) are a huge advantage when casting Genjutsu, as they make it especially potent. Several of Itachi's Genjutsu techniques are listed in the databooks as Genjutsu related directly to the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai.

If you have no special Doujutsu, then you are just an average joe casting Genjutsu via one of the five senses, and in that respect, you are no better off than someone like Kurenai. The fact that it's Senjutsu powered does very little in the way of providing any reason to think it superior to the Sharingan, which accounts for basically every instance of god-modding in the series so far.



> Manga evidence is still against you from unaffected Jiraiya and basic knowledge of Senjutsu.



How is it against me? It doesn't even say how Jiraiya was unaffected. For all we know, he was, and the Ni Dai Sennin broke him out. But like I already said, that still begs the question of why they themselves weren't affected, either. Once again, you're just taking databook shit too literally. It probably means everyone except the casters, or anyone sharing bodies/chakra networks with the casters.



> Plus, augmented? Someone stronger than Itachi was apparently caught.



1. There's no confirmation that Pain is stronger than Itachi.

2. Even if Pain is stronger than Itachi, he's not as good as Itachi at Genjutsu. The very fact that a Genjutsu inferior to Tsukuyomi, cast by Genjutsu users almost certainly inferior to Itachi as well, was able to subdue him, is proof in and of itself that Pain is nowhere near Itachi's level in the Genjutsu department. Which shouldn't come as any surprise, because Itachi is the very best at Genjutsu. It would be absurd to think that even the area he specializes in, the skill of his that is the most potent, falls short next to the skills of someone whose only on-screen encounter with a Genjutsu involved being helpless on the receiving-end of it.

3. There's no relationship between strength in the physical world and Genjutsu proficiency; Genjutsu is entirely cerebral. They are like apples and oranges.



> Nothing states usage of Kagero prevents one from being hit with something like Frog Song. The databook says specifically whoever hears it.
> And pay attention please: Zetsu was only there at the end. Jiraiya and the Ni Dai Sennin can sense natural energy. He was not sense. He was not affected by Frog song.
> Evidenc ehe was there before Pain brought out all six bodies



Zetsu's Kagerou makes him undetectable. It also merges his body with a given medium, and since there's no proof that Magen: Gamarinshou works in anything other than air, let alone that Zetsu is physiologically vulnerable to it while fused with something like solid stone, it's perfectly plausible for him not to be affected by it. But here you go again, being selectively literal with databook statements... Particularly those not meant literally.

As for determining when Zetsu got there, Zetsu remarks "That sure took long", implying he was observing the fight for quite a while.



> Only stated totla mastery of the source.



Which means nothing in regards to any particular application of that source, and says nothing of what Jutsu he was actually capable of harnessing it with.



> And Pain is stronger than Itachi anyways. With better eyes that are used to defeat nin, Tai and Gen.



Unproven. There is no true confirmation of Pain being stronger than Itachi, which is totally irrelevant outside the specific field of Genjutsu anyway, and Rinnegan has only been confirmed to be stronger than basic Sharingan, not Mangekyou Sharingan, and certainly not when it comes to Genjutsu in particular.



> Hm, not looking good for the golden boy with the ponytail



What happened to you being a fan of Itachi? Oh wait, that's right, it was just more obvious bullshit.



> Sasuke: Orochimaru was weak at the time. That's the whole story.



The physical rejection and consequent weakness of Orochimaru's host was bypassed as soon as Orochimaru left that body. Sasuke engaged Orochimaru in a battle of wills within a universe of his own creation and won.



> The same eyes as Itachi were used to mean Mangekyo. Zetsu couldn't understand at first how Sasuke broke it as he only had a normal Sharingan



That statement had nothing to do with Tsukuyomi. The truly relevant statement is when Itachi says that only another Sharingan user with the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai can resist Tsukuyomi, which is supported in the databooks using that exact statement.



> Itachi: USes them, is capable of dealing with them
> Pain: Master of them. Can't deal with them
> 
> I'm noticing another double standard here



Since when was Pain a master of Genjutsu? Name a single Genjutsu we have actually seen Pain use, or that has been solidly attributed to Pain. And of those, name even one that comes anywhere close to the scope of Genjutsu Itachi is capable of.

Pain was fucking helpless against Magen: Gamarinshou. Itachi's Genjutsu is superior to that. What is so difficult about all of this?



> You can show me a panel of Itachi resisting senjutsu or concede the point. I will accept either an admission you don't have one or such evidence



Why are you demanding something that you know I can't give? Let's see you supply any evidence of Itachi succumbing to a Senjutsu Genjutsu.

Oh wait, you can't, because Itachi never faced one. All we have to establish a comparison is what the manga says and depicts, and it says/depicts that Tsukuyomi is the strongest, that Itachi is the best Genjutsu user, and that Magen: Gamarinshou is just "a strong Genjutsu."

No one's doubting that Jiraiya, Pain, and Magen: Gamarinshou are all formiddable, but you are asserting that they are the absolute best, when there is absolutely nothing to suggest that. At all. If anything, it goes entirely against everything the manga depicts. Itachi is supposed to be the best. His Genjutsu are supposed to be the strongest.



> "Itachi is strong. Not untouchable"
> Same standard we can apply



It's not the same at all. Susano'o is a physical barrier preventing techniques from reaching Itachi. Sennin Moodo just enhances Jiraiya's preexisting abilities to a set level. A level far beneath Susano'o.



> Base Lee didn't have strength far below Itachi's. and I dearly hope you're not suggesting he could even scratch someone in Sage Mode.



Lee at that time had a 3 in Power, while Itachi has a 3.5. Yes, Lee with a pointed weapon could inflict damage on either Jiraiya or Naruto in Sennin Moodo, you have got to be kidding me if you think otherwise...



> Shuriken simply don't penetrate. You're also dancing around the point and deciding something brittle can't have piercing power. One with enough strength could break a spear's shaft. That doesn't mean a thing to the sharpness of the point or the piercing power.



Enough of this bullshit. You're just assuming that the rods are somehow more penetrative than standard weaponry even though they've been shown to break in Kakashi's bare hand. That makes no sense, at all.


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## Nikushimi (May 26, 2010)

> Kakashi and Itachi don't have any special durability to their skin alone. If they fell headfirst onto sharp rocks from a great height, they would die. The same cannot be said of a Sennin Mode user







^Kakashi got mule-kicked by the guy who punches down meter-thick iron gates in one shot. As a result, Kakashi goes flying a dozen meters or so, smacks into a giant tree, and the thing fucking topples.

When Sasuke breaks out of Deidara's second C4, they both fall about a hundred or so feet and survive, despite being completely exhausted.

In fact, since you're so fond of the idea that Kirin completely obliterated Susano'o, that means Itachi's unprotected body DID survive a fall from several hundred feet onto solid rock.


These characters all have superhuman physical attributes. Sennin Moodo may be a lot better, but not to the extent that it's totally invulnerable.



> Then by your logic, should be proof the kunai aren't that strong.
> And they certainly don't have the same power to be as strong as a sharp rock you literally fall head first on from a great height



What are you talking about? Are you fucking kidding me? Rather than recognize a legitimate feat, you downplay the hardness of the weapon? What the fuck. Thrown shuriken breaking the tips off of other thrown shuriken makes the shuriken weak, but Kakashi being able to break Pain's black rods in his bare hands just means the rods are brittle irrespective of their penetrating capabilities?



> clone feint- Worthless. They sense him anyways
> Shunshin- Worthless. He can't speedblitz Jiraiya in this form
> Katon: Worthless. They're all Katon users and Jiraiya's a better one.



How are they going to distinguish between the clone and the original? They are about the same movement speed already, so there's no reason why Shunshin wouldn't work.

Katons? You gotta be fucking kidding me. None of Jiraiya's Katons can compare to Itachi's, except the one he used in conjunction with Bunta.



> Never mind that Jiraiya himself could easily deal with whatever Itachi tries. We've seen Shima and Fukasaku use Frog Croak basically instantly. And Itachi lacks any knowledge of it.
> Is there an argument beyond him being able to just react to literally anything?



Jiraiya is not capable of "literally anything", so Itachi being able to react to his attacks via Sharingan's mechanics does not require that he be capable of reacting to "literally anything."



Lightysnake said:


> For starters:
> -When affected by Tsunade's drug. Jiraiya was able to sink a large snake partially with a large swamp. He referred to that as small.



He referred to it as _too_ small. Too small to sink the snake.



> -Not instant? He made the seals, the ground instantly collapsed into Yomi Numa. There is no proof of any lag time



If you look closely around the edge of Yomi Numa, you can see movement lines implying formation:



It's about as instant as Katon: Goukayuu no Jutsu blossoming out of Itachi's mouth. That's purely a matter of this being a manga.



> -Itachi can bunshin feint all he want, but Jiraiya can't when he's canonically done so to use Yomi Numa against Pain?



I never said Jiraiya couldn't clone feint. There are some possible useful applications, but I just don't see it happening before Tsukuyomi GG's him.



> -When used on Human Path, Jiraiya only meant to sink it up to there. The databook states the technique is meant to completely submerge the enemy. He says he could fully sink the enormous snake if he wasn't under the drug's effect.



Already knew that, but there's no reason to assume targets sink especially fast. Certainly no faster than free-fall for crying out loud.



> -Know a seal doesn't correlate to knowing the nature of the move and what it'll do. Jiraiya can make the swamp as big as he wants. Never mind the Yata no Kagami can't cover everything, Susanoo as a whole'll still sink and all he nullifies is the mud touching the mirror. The rest can't move.



Itachi would be able to react even without knowledge, since all he has to know is that Jiraiya is about to use a Jutsu. As for Susano'o, the Yata no Kagami can just nullify the patch Itachi is standing on, like I said. Susano'o moves with Itachi. It won't be held down.



> Chou Oodama Rasengan, judging by the databook's description is certainly comparable



The databook's description says it can hollow out a mountain. There is no official or standard size that defines a mountain. Judging by the actual demonstrated uses of Chou Oodama Rasengan, putting twist wounds in the bellies of Pain's summons, it is absolutely laughably to try to compare it to Kirin.



> Please. Naruto went from a 3.5 capable of his incredible speed feats during the Pain fight. Jiraiya was a 4.5 in base. His speed would skyrocket



Naruto's speed feats were better than Jiraiya's in Sennin Moodo. He was able to perfect it, after all, so it stands to reason he would benefit more from it. Jiraiya's Sennin chakra was imbalanced and therefore probably did not give him the full boost he could have received.



> Before it even moves under him or summons Susanoo, that's it. Jiraiya isn't given to exposition to enemies. Especially as he'd just nail him with Frog Croak first, then sink him.



First of all, I like how you just said Jiraiya isn't given to exposition to enemies. All he does in his fights is show off and boast.

Second, Itachi could easily land Tsukuyomi before Jiraiya accomplishes any of this. 



> And if he's standing on the mud at all, that's it. He'll sink right off. If it sank something enormous as a snake in a moment, a human sized target has no chance



Susano'o nullifies a patch, Itachi hops off that onto dry land. Though I'm curious why Jiraiya would suddenly expend so much chakra on such a large swamp for a human-sized target.



> Falsehood. I have argued Itachi's victory on a number of occasions here.



Probably against complete fodder or ninjas of Kakashi's level. Not against anyone of substance. Case in point, this thread, the Deidara one, and the one with Yonbi Naruto.



> I refuse to get into a pissing contest here. I will nearly note that whenever it comes to a character you don't like-Pain, Jiraiya etc, you take any absence of evidence as absolute proof of absence when it'd give Itachi an advantage.
> 
> That's all I'm saying on that subject



I do no such thing, I give them plenty of credit and TBCH it would not bother me one bit if Kishi came forward and concluded it once in for all in an interview that Pain>Jiraiya=Itachi. But saying Itachi would lose to anyone in the field of Genjutsu when that style of combat is so intrinsic to his character is just absurd. Particularly, him losing to characters who aren't even notably _*good*_ at Genjutsu.

If it's Ninjutsu or Taijutsu or anything else, I can at least see someone's reasoning as valid, but to suggest Itachi is inferior to someone *on the sole basis* that they showed a single "strong" Genjutsu is just completely retarded. Maybe Itachi will eventually be dethroned as the King of Genjutsu (I hope not, but maybe), but it certainly hasn't happened yet, and certainly not by Pain or Jiraiya. If they were really that good, they would be the ones going around mind-raping people, not Itachi.



> A hailstorm of Shuriken in a form so durable it doesn't even feel a huge drop onto sharp stones against simple metal kunai and shurikens?



You're comparing the force generated by a fall that's distributed across the surface area of a person's entire body (or a large portion of it) to a precision cut or stab? You can pierce yourself with a sharp object and minimal force, yet fall on your ass with a lot of force and be totally unharmed. It's not like when you go to the doctor to get a shot, you need to fall on the needle to make it pierce.



> And Great Rasengan is stated to be able to hollow out a mountain. Susanoo is strong enough to tank that on it sown...how?



Lol, databook hyperbole being taken literally. A mountain isn't defined. We've seen what the Jutsu can actually do to targets like Pain's summons. It won't break Susano'o.


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## Nikushimi (May 26, 2010)

> I never argue that Itachi isn't a dangerous or powerful opponent. Merely there are people who can take him. Some needing circumstances skewed, but?



There's a fucking difference between arguing that he gets beat and arguing that his opponent beats him on literally every front. You're not even giving him the benefit of the doubt (as if there even need be any doubt) as far as Genjutsu goes and that is just the most epic middle finger you could possibly raise to his character.



> I think if you want to argue the manga, you might want to take everything into account. Notably:
> Thanks to Gottheim:
> Kisame: You should be able to take him down one one way or another, but I don't know how I'd fare.../We aren't in the same league.
> Itachi: Yeah...If we face him, the both of us might get killled./Or we'll pull off a mutual strike down if we do well./...Even coming in greater numbers might not make much of a change.
> ...



Shoddy fanslations. Here's the official Viz translation:



> Kisame: Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not sure about me... He's in a different league.
> 
> Itachi: Yeah... If we faced off, we might end up killing eachother. At the very least, we'd hurt eachother badly. And even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome.
> 
> ...



Itachi says if they fought eachother, then and there, they would kill or at least badly injure eachother. No direct strength comparison is made. It is purely a statement of the likely outcome.



> And there are those the Sharingan has difficulty keeping up with. In Sennin mode, if the proportional boost holds true for Jiraiya's speed?



Why would it? Sennin Jiraiya's speed AND strength feats weren't nearly as impressive as Sennin Naruto's.



> I continuously enjoy how Jiraiya and the hermits are so utterly amateurish they'll be taken out by the most basic of tricks in Itachi's hands. And that any strategy they've been shown to use is ignored and focuses on Jiraiya charging in.



So because they can't just walk through everything Itachi throws at them- because they may actually have to make an effort to, you know...dodge, block, or counter incoming attacks -that makes them amateurish?

Get real. If they want to not die, they actually have to fight. They can't just stand there and expect Jutsu and weapons to bounce off them.



> there is no evidence a shuriken can even scratch them. On his own, Jiraiya is very strong and durable. In Sage Mode?



There's no reason to assume a shuriken couldn't scratch them. A shuriken would be able to scratch them ordinarily. Pain's chakra sticks could outright stab them, and they are no sharper, and certainly no harder, than standard kunai or shuriken.



> Clone feints don't work as these three can sense Itachi's location at all times, and what he's doing.



They can't distinguish between the clones and the original, however.



> Katons are kind of useles against the people capable of easily using higher level ones like Deep Fat Fryer.



Senpou: Gouemon is part Fuuton; theoretically, Itachi should be able to make use of that with his own Katon, going by the elemental rules.

By the way, I only insisted that using Katons was a possible counter for the Ni Dai Sennin's paralyzing croak. You're changing the Jutsu, here.



> Jiraiya's fast enough to keep up with any shunshin besides and he has Jutsu that are bad for Itachi there. Frog Croak would signal the end of the fight if it landed



Any Jutsu on either side would signal the end of the fight if it landed. Itachi's happen to be much easier to land, as all Jiraiya needs to do is look at him and Tsukuyomi ends it. If Jiraiya is within range, Amaterasu hits him even if J-man's _not_ looking at Itachi's eyes.

And Shunshin is sudden. It can't be tracked like baseline speed, since it isn't consistent with baseline speed. It's a burst of acceleration. All I really meant Itachi would use it for is to rapidly get away from something like the croak attack.



> Good for Zetsu. Madara stated Pain as invincible when saying giving him a hard time was a testament to Jiraiya's skills. Fukasaku stated Pain was invincible without knowledge. The databook stated Pain was invincible.



Different meanings behind the word "invincible", contextually speaking. As it refers to Pain, it means beating him. As it refers to Itachi, it means penetrating Susano'o while it is active. The latter is physical invulnerability, the former simply means he was unbeatable.



> And Itachi with WAY more knowledge of his own abilities, with no evidence of any disease in part one, believed Jiraiya might be able to take him and Kisame both. Kisame even acknowledged Jiraiya as his better.



No, he said he and Jiraiya would kill or wound eachother, irrespective of any interference (presumably not including Kisame, since Itachi and Kisame together would roadhaul Jiraiya with no difficulty). As for Kisame, he said Jiraiya was on a different level, which presumably means "on a different level from those we previously faced in Konoha", since in basically the same sentence, Kisame states that he is unsuse of his chances. You are not unsure of your chances if you are convinced you are weaker than someone.



> Itachi isn't? He himself seems to disagree.
> No, he certainly is the type of person to lose to Jiraiya, as he stated it was fully possible.
> Jiraiya's also the person who can lose to Itachi.
> They can beat one another.



It's a possibility. Itachi can lose to Jiraiya, under the right circumstances. That doesn't change the fact that I think he's leaps and bounds stronger than Jiraiya.



> But I've never seen an argument made from you that even acknowledges anyone can beat Itachi. Well, let's hear it then. Who can beat him? What's the list?



*Who I think for sure is stronger:*

Rikudou Sennin
Uchiha Madara (current)

*Don't know, but almost certainly:*

Sasuke (with Itachi's eyes/Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan)
Naruto (after he gets his next generic Shounen power-up)

*Don't know, but possibly:*

Minato

*Don't think so, but wouldn't be surprised:*

Pain Rikudou

*Really don't think so, but still wouldn't be surprised:*

Shodai
Young Madara



> They are not mutually exclusive. A 'hero' is not necessarily a good person.
> I consider someone who aids in the murder of innocents, puts a 12 year old boy in a trauma induced coma and orders warriors of the village he supposedly loves to be killed with no emotion to lack the tracks of a good person.



All of that was stated to be part of the illusion Itachi was intentionally presenting of himself. Buying into it means ignoring everything in the manga and databooks that says not to.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, has Amaterasu ever been used on an intended victim and they couldn't react?



Danzo. He was a short distance away from Sasuke.


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> So the Ni Dai Sennin themselves...? Presumably they would hear their own duet, wouldn't they? And Jiraiya?


I covered this. All three of them utilized Senjutsu at that point.




> There's no specification as to what that actually means. It says the body is paralyzed on a neural level, but what are its metaphysical effects like?
> 
> Either way, it's proven even something instant like Itachi's Tsukuyomi can be broken. Itachi should be able to instantly counter the effects of a Genjutsu inferior to his own Tsukuyomi.



With his mind paralyzed as well? 
And nothing implies Itachi can counter Senjutsu still.



> Purely a matter of incidence. Itachi has never faced one. However, Senjutsu Genjutsu is still just Genjutsu, albeit significantly more powerful than the standard.


And Itachi isn't a sage. So seems he can't handle it.
And he's never faced one. So prove he can handle it. 




> One doesn't need it, but obviously Doujutsu (Sharingan especially) are a huge advantage when casting Genjutsu, as they make it especially potent. Several of Itachi's Genjutsu techniques are listed in the databooks as Genjutsu related directly to the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai.


Sure. Doesn't necessarily place anything but Tsukuyomi on an arguable scale above Frog Song



> If you have no special Doujutsu, then you are just an average joe casting Genjutsu via one of the five senses, and in that respect, you are no better off than someone like Kurenai. The fact that it's Senjutsu powered does very little in the way of providing any reason to think it superior to the Sharingan, which accounts for basically every instance of god-modding in the series so far.


So if you don't have a Dojutsu, you must suck at Genjutsu. And that it's Senjutsu powered means there are four fighters in the series who can resist it.




> How is it against me? It doesn't even say how Jiraiya was unaffected. For all we know, he was, and the Ni Dai Sennin broke him out. But like I already said, that still begs the question of why they themselves weren't affected, either. Once again, you're just taking databook shit too literally. It probably means everyone except the casters, or anyone sharing bodies/chakra networks with the casters.


Is Jiraiya even shown being affected by it or broken out? So you're speculating.
And suddenly I take the databooks too literally but you have no issues accepting 'total invincibility' for Itachi.
It says 'everyone,' still. It only didn't affect Senjutsu users...odd



> 1. There's no confirmation that Pain is stronger than Itachi.


"The Target" chapter has at the very end when Pain is assigned to pursue Naruto: The Strongest in Akatsuki pursues Naruto.
The databook states he keeps control of Akatsuki via charisma and greater power. Fukaskau confirmed his invincibility without knowledge. He has far superior feats



> 2. Even if Pain is stronger than Itachi, he's not as good as Itachi at Genjutsu.


Prove it.


> The very fact that a Genjutsu inferior to Tsukuyomi, cast by Genjutsu users almost certainly inferior to Itachi as well, was able to subdue him, is proof in and of itself that Pain is nowhere near Itachi's level in the Genjutsu department.


Inferior Genjutsu: Speculation. Using Senjutsu and causing instant paralysis of body and mind grants it on the level abilities



> Which shouldn't come as any surprise, because Itachi is the very best at Genjutsu. It would be absurd to think that even the area he specializes in, the skill of his that is the most potent, falls short next to the skills of someone whose only on-screen encounter with a Genjutsu involved being helpless on the receiving-end of it.


Okay. Show Itachi resisting a Senjutsu Genjutsu. If it's that easy to make this conclusion.
And Nagato has total and complete mastery over Genjutsu's alteration. Meaning in addition to any non elemental Genjutsu, he'd have Genjutsu mastery as well
And he has a Dojutsu, which as you just admitted, has Genjutsu properties



> 3. There's no relationship between strength in the physical world and Genjutsu proficiency; Genjutsu is entirely cerebral. They are like apples and oranges.


Zetsu: What is really comes down to is the skill *and power* of the Shinobi.




> Zetsu's Kagerou makes him undetectable.


To most means. Natural energy would be different.
And Pain was already shown detecting him


> It also merges his body with a given medium, and since there's no proof that Magen: Gamarinshou works in anything other than air, let alone that Zetsu is physiologically vulnerable to it while fused with something like solid stone, it's perfectly plausible for him not to be affected by it. But here you go again, being selectively literal with databook statements... Particularly those not meant literally.


Zetsu is shown able to hear when he's fused with the surfaces. The databook says anyone who hears Frog Song is caught.
Prove Zetsu was there before the Six Paths came out. Please do. 



> As for determining when Zetsu got there, Zetsu remarks "That sure took long", implying he was observing the fight for quite a while.


There is no mention of the passage of time between the Pains all coming out and Animal Realm;s death, I'm afraid. Still no proof on your point




> Which means nothing in regards to any particular application of that source, and says nothing of what Jutsu he was actually capable of harnessing it with.


He's mastered Katons. Meaning he's a fire master
Fuutons, as well. Meaning he's a wind master
Earth, meaning he's a master with Doton
Yin and Yang, meaning he's a master with Genjutsu and any other non elemental jutsu


----------



## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

> Unproven. There is no true confirmation of Pain being stronger than Itachi, which is totally irrelevant outside the specific field of Genjutsu anyway, and Rinnegan has only been confirmed to be stronger than basic Sharingan, not Mangekyou Sharingan, and certainly not when it comes to Genjutsu in particular.


The plot practically shouted "Pain is the strongest in Akatsuki" over and over and when he felt like it, he blew the village Itachi gave his life to protect away because he was pissed.




> What happened to you being a fan of Itachi? Oh wait, that's right, it was just more obvious bullshit.


I'm a fan of the series' Itachi. Not the construct of Itachi some people tend to create




> The physical rejection and consequent weakness of Orochimaru's host was bypassed as soon as Orochimaru left that body. Sasuke engaged Orochimaru in a battle of wills within a universe of his own creation and won.



Sasuke: Orochimaru was weak at the time. That's all there is to it.

I trust his word on the matter over your own here. Orochimaru himself was at his worst. That makes a difference




> That statement had nothing to do with Tsukuyomi. The truly relevant statement is when Itachi says that only another Sharingan user with the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai can resist Tsukuyomi, which is supported in the databooks using that exact statement.



Zetsu:how can someone with just the Sharingan break the Tsukuyomi?!

Yeah, I think we can discount the idea 'that statement had nothing to do with Tsukuyomi.



> Since when was Pain a master of Genjutsu? Name a single Genjutsu we have actually seen Pain use, or that has been solidly attributed to Pain. And of those, name even one that comes anywhere close to the scope of Genjutsu Itachi is capable of.


Name a katon we've seen Nagato use.
It doesn't change Nagato stated he'd mastered all the alterations and thus has multiple powerful jutsu in each field. Which would include Genjutsu.
And don't Dojutsu all have Genjutsu properties according to you?



> Pain was fucking helpless against Magen: Gamarinshou. Itachi's Genjutsu is superior to that. What is so difficult about all of this?



Itachi's only Genjutsu you can debate as superior is the Tsukuyomi.

And then there's Senjutsu, two casters, and others that make Frog Song outside the norm





> Why are you demanding something that you know I can't give? Let's see you supply any evidence of Itachi succumbing to a Senjutsu Genjutsu.


You're loudly proclaiming your opinion as fact. Why are you complaining when I ask you to prove up?



> Oh wait, you can't, because Itachi never faced one. All we have to establish a comparison is what the manga says and depicts, and it says/depicts that Tsukuyomi is the strongest, that Itachi is the best Genjutsu user, and that Magen: Gamarinshou is just "a strong Genjutsu."


With a type of chakra Itachi's never faced and cannot handle unless he's a Sage himself. 
Not strange the people who heard the Song were fine, despite what the databook says. And what they had in common was they were Sages



> No one's doubting that Jiraiya, Pain, and Magen: Gamarinshou are all formiddable, but you are asserting that they are the absolute best, when there is absolutely nothing to suggest that. At all. If anything, it goes entirely against everything the manga depicts. Itachi is supposed to be the best. His Genjutsu are supposed to be the strongest.


Your extrapolation. I'm not trusting your opinion on the subject here. We've seen Itachi's best Genjutsu get broken before. And his regular Genjutsu by someone with a 4 in his Genjutsu stat. Even Naruto resisted Ephemeral's attempt to knock him out




> It's not the same at all. Susano'o is a physical barrier preventing techniques from reaching Itachi. Sennin Moodo just enhances Jiraiya's preexisting abilities to a set level. A level far beneath Susano'o.


Judging by Naruto's boost, an enormous level.
From what we've seen, Susanoo is also as dangerous to Itachi as to the enemy




> Lee at that time had a 3 in Power, while Itachi has a 3.5. Yes, Lee with a pointed weapon could inflict damage on either Jiraiya or Naruto in Sennin Moodo, you have got to be kidding me if you think otherwise...



this downplaying of anyone you don't like is beginning to get a tad silly.
Lee has nothing on a Sage. He wouldn't be able to touch them and they'd shrug his blows off anyways. If being hit by an enormous charging bull creature did nothing to Jiraiya, Lee'll do what? If falling onto the rocks didn't hurt Naruto, what'll kunai do? Tickle?




> Enough of this bullshit. You're just assuming that the rods are somehow more penetrative than standard weaponry even though they've been shown to break in Kakashi's bare hand. That makes no sense, at all.



They penetrated the skin of someone durable enough to fall a great distance onto sharp sharps and break them without even feeling a thing.
And again: How does being brittle change sharpness or piercing power? You can sharpen a wooden stake to the point you can draw blood by poking someone. You can still snap one with little effort.
So, again, durability of the object equates to piercing power?





Nikushimi said:


> ^Kakashi got mule-kicked by the guy who punches down meter-thick iron gates in one shot. As a result, Kakashi goes flying a dozen meters or so, smacks into a giant tree, and the thing fucking topples.


Kakuzu only knocks down large gates when he has Domu activates, you might recall. 



> When Sasuke breaks out of Deidara's second C4, they both fall about a hundred or so feet and survive, despite being completely exhausted.


Deidara was injured by the fall. There's no evidence of Sasuke just falling. Even if his snakes died.



> In fact, since you're so fond of the idea that Kirin completely obliterated Susano'o, that means Itachi's unprotected body DID survive a fall from several hundred feet onto solid rock.
> 
> 
> These characters all have superhuman physical attributes. Sennin Moodo may be a lot better, but not to the extent that it's totally invulnerable.


Just above just about any other normal human in the manga. Imagine durability feats like that when someone's in Sage Mode. 




> What are you talking about? Are you fucking kidding me? Rather than recognize a legitimate feat, you downplay the hardness of the weapon? What the fuck. Thrown shuriken breaking the tips off of other thrown shuriken makes the shuriken weak, but Kakashi being able to break Pain's black rods in his bare hands just means the rods are brittle irrespective of their penetrating capabilities?


Shuriken are regular metal. There's never been anything stated to be anything special about their piercing capacity and 
And yes, if two normal human beings fling knives or shuriken at full speed at one another and they connected? I don't know what you think they're made of, but they'd be damaged.




> How are they going to distinguish between the clone and the original? They are about the same movement speed already, so there's no reason why Shunshin wouldn't work.


They're about the same movement when Jiraiya's in base. He's now far faster.

And let's think, safe bet the clone might have less chakra and won't be the one hiding.



> Katons? You gotta be fucking kidding me. None of Jiraiya's Katons can compare to Itachi's, except the one he used in conjunction with Bunta.


Hello Deep Fat Fryer.
And no, they can compare. Jiriaya has a lot more chakra to put in his katons




> Jiraiya is not capable of "literally anything", so Itachi being able to react to his attacks via Sharingan's mechanics does not require that he be capable of reacting to "literally anything."


Evasion of my point. You're basically saying Itachi has answers to literally everything under the sun, including things he's never seen, has no way to counter if it gets off and from a guy who might even be faster? Come on, now




> He referred to it as _too_ small. Too small to sink the snake.


"I can't sink that snake with such a small swamp."

The databook even says the swamp can go much, much deeper




> If you look closely around the edge of Yomi Numa, you can see movement lines implying formation:


Has to form, doesn't it? It did so instantly with the snake he used it on, judging by its sudden surprise with the swamp there immediately after the seal. Or were you referring to the one he used on Pain? Because that just shows he stepped in it. Jiraiya had obviously set it up as a trap already as he wasn't doing any seals for it



> It's about as instant as Katon: Goukayuu no Jutsu blossoming out of Itachi's mouth. That's purely a matter of this being a manga.


Jiraiya makes the seal: swamp appears
Itachi makes a seal, he has to rear back and blow the fireball




> I never said Jiraiya couldn't clone feint. There are some possible useful applications, but I just don't see it happening before Tsukuyomi GG's him.


ICly, Itachi won't use that too quickly. ICly, Jiraiya isn't going to look him in the eye like that.
He saw Tsukuyomi used. And the after effects. 



> Already knew that, but there's no reason to assume targets sink especially fast. Certainly no faster than free-fall for crying out loud.


The ground literally collapses beneath them with ensnaring mud that sucks you under. The snake's body was mostly under instantly and a human is way smaller


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

> Itachi would be able to react even without knowledge, since all he has to know is that Jiraiya is about to use a Jutsu. As for Susano'o, the Yata no Kagami can just nullify the patch Itachi is standing on, like I said. Susano'o moves with Itachi. It won't be held down.


Unless Jiraiya uses a Bunshin feint and makes one behind his back.

Jiraiya in Sage Mode can make numerous Bunshins. Given his chakra amount, that's no problem for him at all.
And Yata's Mirror will instantly get between Itachi and the mud before it all sinks.
And knowing he's using a Jutsu? doesn't tell him what type. Or HOW to react



> The databook's description says it can hollow out a mountain. There is no official or standard size that defines a mountain. Judging by the actual demonstrated uses of Chou Oodama Rasengan, putting twist wounds in the bellies of Pain's summons, it is absolutely laughably to try to compare it to Kirin.


Kirin's feat is destroying a mountain. Chou Oodama Rasengan can apparently do the same. And he can form it according to the databook in an instant to swallow someone. 




> Naruto's speed feats were better than Jiraiya's in Sennin Moodo. He was able to perfect it, after all, so it stands to reason he would benefit more from it. Jiraiya's Sennin chakra was imbalanced and therefore probably did not give him the full boost he could have received.


He'd still certainly get a boost. And a large one given the extent his strength and durability increase.




> First of all, I like how you just said Jiraiya isn't given to exposition to enemies. All he does in his fights is show off and boast.
> 
> Second, Itachi could easily land Tsukuyomi before Jiraiya accomplishes any of this.


Jiraiya: I'm going to be an OOC idiot and look you in the eye despite knowing what you can do from seeing it firsthand.
Shame an IC ITachi won't be using that right off. Jiraiya is also far more serious than you give him credit for




> Susano'o nullifies a patch, Itachi hops off that onto dry land. Though I'm curious why Jiraiya would suddenly expend so much chakra on such a large swamp for a human-sized target.



Except Yata's Mirror can't react that fast. He has to move it. By that point, he's sunk already. And if Itachi has to expend energy in Susanoo? He's blind from using it, his lifeforce being sucked. He leaps off, Jiraiya can make another. He's got more Senjutsu coming all the time, after all




> Probably against complete fodder or ninjas of Kakashi's level. Not against anyone of substance. Case in point, this thread, the Deidara one, and the one with Yonbi Naruto.


So I don't think he could beat people he hasn't shown the ability to and with circumstances against him. Makes me all so biased?




> I do no such thing, I give them plenty of credit and TBCH it would not bother me one bit if Kishi came forward and concluded it once in for all in an interview that Pain>Jiraiya=Itachi. But saying Itachi would lose to anyone in the field of Genjutsu when that style of combat is so intrinsic to his character is just absurd. Particularly, him losing to characters who aren't even notably _*good*_ at Genjutsu.


Jiraiya's ninjutsu is intrinsic to his characte.r So what? People have lost fights before against their chosen styles.



> If it's Ninjutsu or Taijutsu or anything else, I can at least see someone's reasoning as valid, but to suggest Itachi is inferior to someone *on the sole basis* that they showed a single "strong" Genjutsu is just completely retarded. Maybe Itachi will eventually be dethroned as the King of Genjutsu (I hope not, but maybe), but it certainly hasn't happened yet, and certainly not by Pain or Jiraiya. If they were really that good, they would be the ones going around mind-raping people, not Itachi.


None of the Paths can use Genjutsu and Jiraiya obviously needs the two hermits who chill out at Mt. Myobokuzan usually.
and maybe it could just be that most people don't use Genjutsu. Hiruzen had a 5 in it and did fine 




> You're comparing the force generated by a fall that's distributed across the surface area of a person's entire body (or a large portion of it) to a precision cut or stab? You can pierce yourself with a sharp object and minimal force, yet fall on your ass with a lot of force and be totally unharmed. It's not like when you go to the doctor to get a shot, you need to fall on the needle to make it pierce.


 Familiar with the old adage of falling on your sword? Put a giant stake fifty to a hundred feet below you. Fall on it. Headfirst or not. It'll rip through you like nothing from the sheer force alone. 
The piercing potential would be genuinely greater than just a throw or stab



> Lol, databook hyperbole being taken literally. A mountain isn't defined. We've seen what the Jutsu can actually do to targets like Pain's summons. It won't break Susano'o.



Because Naruto's usage of it= Jiraiya, right?
Also, Naruto's never exploded, which is the mountain buster



Nikushimi said:


> There's a fucking difference between arguing that he gets beat and arguing that his opponent beats him on literally every front. You're not even giving him the benefit of the doubt (as if there even need be any doubt) as far as Genjutsu goes and that is just the most epic middle finger you could possibly raise to his character.


Why am I shedding no tears?
I think he might be equaled by two separate cases. When I argue Kurenai equals him, then you can say I'm underrating him.




> Shoddy fanslations. Here's the official Viz translation:


I'm sorry, did you just call Gottheim's translation 'shoddy?' He's one of the best, most respected fan translators




> Itachi says if they fought eachother, then and there, they would kill or at least badly injure eachother. No direct strength comparison is made. It is purely a statement of the likely outcome.


He also said it wouldn't matter what backup he had against Jiraiya
And you also argue Kisame>>>>>Jiraiya. When Kisame admits that Jiraiya>Him.

And you just confirmed what I said: Itachi feared, even with help, he could at best tie.

Oh, and Itachi doesn't even know about Sage Mode



> Why would it? Sennin Jiraiya's speed AND strength feats weren't nearly as impressive as Sennin Naruto's.


Based on? See the bull. It was bigger than the rhino




> So because they can't just walk through everything Itachi throws at them- because they may actually have to make an effort to, you know...dodge, block, or counter incoming attacks -that makes them amateurish?


So if Jiraiya dodges or just uses toad silhouette and then they use the frog croak, does Itachi's sharingan block it or does he have a vulnerability?



> Get real. If they want to not die, they actually have to fight. They can't just stand there and expect Jutsu and weapons to bounce off them.


You're expecting katons and shurikens to work on people whose skin might as well be made of metal given how it breaks sharp stone?




> There's no reason to assume a shuriken couldn't scratch them. A shuriken would be able to scratch them ordinarily. Pain's chakra sticks could outright stab them, and they are no sharper, and certainly no harder, than standard kunai or shuriken.


Ordinarily. That's what Sage mode fixes. 
And I want evidence that Pain's chakra rods are no sharper than a kunai. We've seen Kunai fail to penetrate things before. 




> They can't distinguish between the clones and the original, however.


It's a feint. And Itachi doesn't know that. It doesn't take a genius to know the one trying to distract you is the bunshin. And it disallowes a sneak attack.
If Itachi makes a bunshin, Jiriaya makes one too, besides




> Senpou: Gouemon is part Fuuton; theoretically, Itachi should be able to make use of that with his own Katon, going by the elemental rules.


It's an elemental fusion like Kakuzu's attacks. The katon will deal with any of Itachi's own fireballs



> By the way, I only insisted that using Katons was a possible counter for the Ni Dai Sennin's paralyzing croak. You're changing the Jutsu, here.


Yeah, Jiraiya can dodge a katon easily. Or just cancel it with his own while the two use Frog Croak


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

> Any Jutsu on either side would signal the end of the fight if it landed. Itachi's happen to be much easier to land, as all Jiraiya needs to do is look at him and Tsukuyomi ends it. If Jiraiya is within range, Amaterasu hits him even if J-man's _not_ looking at Itachi's eyes.


Except Itachi has to prep Amaterasu. And he's likely to hit a Bunshin instead



> And Shunshin is sudden. It can't be tracked like baseline speed, since it isn't consistent with baseline speed. It's a burst of acceleration. All I really meant Itachi would use it for is to rapidly get away from something like the croak attack.


Becaus ehe'd know exactly what Shima and Fukasaku can do. Jiraiya's movement speed is at the very, vERY least equal to Itachi here




> Different meanings behind the word "invincible", contextually speaking. As it refers to Pain, it means beating him. As it refers to Itachi, it means penetrating Susano'o while it is active. The latter is physical invulnerability, the former simply means he was unbeatable.


Oh, so Pain doesn't even need a special toy to become invincible is what you're saying. Especially given Pain can absorb or disperse Susanoo




> No, he said he and Jiraiya would kill or wound eachother, irrespective of any interference (presumably not including Kisame, since Itachi and Kisame together would roadhaul Jiraiya with no difficulty). As for Kisame, he said Jiraiya was on a different level, which presumably means "on a different level from those we previously faced in Konoha", since in basically the same sentence, Kisame states that he is unsuse of his chances. You are not unsure of your chances if you are convinced you are weaker than someone.


Two translations giving the literal definition have it being said that even with backup, Itachi says he still fears the best they could do would die.
Kisame doesn't just say he was 'unsure.' He said Jiraiya was flat out better than him.
Itachi plainly admitted worry of Jiraiya and he has no idea of Jiraiya's stronger form.





> It's a possibility. Itachi can lose to Jiraiya, under the right circumstances. That doesn't change the fact that I think he's leaps and bounds stronger than Jiraiya.


Except he isn't and the manga went out of its way to paint them as equals. Assuming Kishimoto changed his mind from deciding Jiraiya could take Kisame and Itachi simultaneously according to Itachi



> *Who I think for sure is stronger:*
> 
> Rikudou Sennin
> Uchiha Madara (current)
> ...


Wow. Itachi can beat Hashirama and Prime Madara? On the same level as Minato.

Overrated a bit much methinks.



> All of that was stated to be part of the illusion Itachi was intentionally presenting of himself. Buying into it means ignoring everything in the manga and databooks that says not to.



How many unambiguously cruel and evil things do you do as part of an act before you stop being unambiguously good? "It was an act" doesn't make Kurenai or Asuma less dead if Gai hadn't rescued the day.

Anyways, I'm tired of making enormous posts in this thread.


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## Nikushimi (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I covered this. All three of them utilized Senjutsu at that point.



That doesn't answer the question of why they weren't affected. At all.

Why don't you just accept the obvious, which is that you're taking the databook's statement a bit too literally? When it says "anyone", it presumably means anyone *except the casters*... Common sense here.



> With his mind paralyzed as well?
> And nothing implies Itachi can counter Senjutsu still.



Nothing implies he can't. Tsukuyomi has instantaneous effects (well, Itachi's does) yet evidently it can be countered by a Sharingan user with the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai. Mental paralysis is simply a product of the illusion. If Itachi overcomes the illusion, which I have no doubt he will, then it has no power over him.



> And Itachi isn't a sage. So seems he can't handle it.
> And he's never faced one. So prove he can handle it.



You really have a warped sense of the burden of proof, you know that? It's never suggested anywhere that being a Sennin makes one qualitatively exempt from the normal laws governing Genjutsu. In fact, all Senjutsu is, is just enhancement to regular Taijutsu/Ninjutsu/Genjutsu. It makes them more potent. They are still beholden to the same rules.

That said, you're going to have to find a better reason than "LOL RINNEGAN" or "LOL YIN/YANG CHAKRA" to convince me that either Pain OR the Ni Dai Sennin can hold a candle to the fusion-reaction star that is Itachi's Genjutsu. All Magen: Gamarinshou can really be considered is a more potent Doujutsuless Genjutsu. In case you haven't noticed, regular Doujutsuless Genjutsu aren't worth shit in the face of Sharingan. I'm not arguing that Senjutsu doesn't change that to an extent, but suddenly it's too much for Itachi to handle? There's really nothing that suggests that.



> Sure. Doesn't necessarily place anything but Tsukuyomi on an arguable scale above Frog Song



Agreed. But I think Tsukuyomi is what goes without saying and seals the deal in Itachi's favor.

It's unproven territory, so believing that Itachi's regular Genjutsu would be sufficient is just my own interpretation based on the _*numerous*_ competent Genjutsu users who have fallen victim to them. TBCH, I think Pain/Nagato WILL have a 5 in Genjutsu when he finally gets databook stats.

But Itachi is unique in that even having a 5 is meaningless compared to him. He has already shown that you are not automatically safe just by being in that tier. The vibe I get from Kishimoto is- and let me be clear about this, it's just my opinion -nobody can compete as Itachi's peer when it comes to Genjutsu. A sentiment illustrated by Danzou's mockery of Sasuke being as far below Itachi as the land is below the sky when it comes to Genjutsu. There are few characters in the series who can make a superlative claim to anything and I think it's sufficiently implied that Itachi is one of those privileged few.



> So if you don't have a Dojutsu, you must suck at Genjutsu. And that it's Senjutsu powered means there are four fighters in the series who can resist it.



Not having Doujutsu doesn't mean you suck, it just means your chances of competing with someone who does have a Doujutsu are greatly lessened. The Ni Dai Sennin managed it because 1) they used an extremely potent Senjutsu Genjutsu and 2) they used it on an opponent who, despite having a Doujutsu, is not notably Genjutsu-inclined.



> Is Jiraiya even shown being affected by it or broken out? So you're speculating.



Of course. I'm merely offering a possible explanation, not asserting it as fact. Actually, I don't think Jiraiya or the Ni Dai Sennin were affected, because I think it's preposterous that it would affect the casters (who were, incidentally, fused with Jiraiya).



> And suddenly I take the databooks too literally but you have no issues accepting 'total invincibility' for Itachi.



I don't see what the big deal is. His "invincibility" stems from a couple of items that happen to be in his possession, and is only valid for a few minutes with potentially fatal consequences as payment for the use of such power.



> It says 'everyone,' still. It only didn't affect Senjutsu users...odd



Yes, the Senjutsu users who...happened to be the ones casting it in the first place... Because we know it's perfectly normal and sensible for a Jutsu to target its own caster along with the enemy indiscriminately. We also know that it's confirmed to target its caster, because the word "anyone" couldn't possibly mean anything less than the literal equivalent. We also know that that it's confirmed they shrugged it off.

Oh wait, hah hah hah, that's all nonsense. Nothing suggests the casters were targetted and subsequently able to resist it through sheer Sennin GAR.



> "The Target" chapter has at the very end when Pain is assigned to pursue Naruto: The Strongest in Akatsuki pursues Naruto.
> The databook states he keeps control of Akatsuki via charisma and greater power. Fukaskau confirmed his invincibility without knowledge. He has far superior feats



Side text: Metacanon.
Databook: I still haven't seen confirmation from you which of the two very different translations was correct.
Fukasaku: He was right, Pain was invincible at that time. No one who could beat him (and try in the first place, logically discounting Pain's allies) was still alive.
Feats: That's a matter of opinion. He has some impressive shit, but Susano'o is just uber. I cannot see him doing anything to it short of trapping it in Chibaku Tensei and holding it there until Itachi dies from maintaining it. But since the period of time Pain can use Chibaku Tensei is impossible to assess from what we saw due to Naruto's internal experience, whether or not this is possible comes down to which one you're willing to *believe* is stronger.



> Prove it.



Pain's Genjutsu feats? _Actual_ Genjutsu feats? Where we see him casting or breaking a Genjutsu? Or anyone even commenting on his ability to do either?

You won't find them, because he's not notable for them. He throws powerful Ninjutsu around, that's how he fights. He is not the type for Genjutsu and certainly has displayed no particular aptitude. Trying to argue that Rinnegan alone makes Pain better at Genjutsu than Itachi because Rinnegan>Sharingan, would be tantamount to arguing that Mangekyou Sharingan makes Itachi better at Taijutsu than any given Byakugan user due to Mangekyou Sharingan being the superior Doujutsu (I doubt you will contest this claim, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me).

There's no e-mail from Kishimoto I can show you as direct proof, but from a reader's standpoint, I think it pretty much goes without saying. Consider how easily Naruto would have been captured if there were any truth to it.



> Inferior Genjutsu: Speculation. Using Senjutsu and causing instant paralysis of body and mind grants it on the level abilities



Tsukuyomi is stated to be the strongest. Strongest means everything else is inferior. Magen: Gamarinshou fits under "everything else."

And anyway, next time it's shown that Magen: Gamarinshou can alter a victim's perception of time, or you know...*kill them*...maybe then I will believe it is on the level of Tsukuyomi. Until then, no fucking way; it is just a really strong Kanashibari no Jutsu.



> Okay. Show Itachi resisting a Senjutsu Genjutsu. If it's that easy to make this conclusion.



He's never faced one. But Senjutsu Genjutsu doesn't really mean anything except "more potent Genjutsu." Itachi has resisted plenty of Genjutsu, and the databook places his proficiency in that area in the highest tier (5), among others who were totally helpless before him. He's a ninja of the Uchiha clan who possesses Mangekyou Sharingan. His baseline level of ability is already top-notch, and on top of that, he has a Doujutsu that is supremely powerful in the field of Genjutsu. I see no reason to doubt he would break a Genjutsu on the sole basis that it is strong.



> And Nagato has total and complete mastery over Genjutsu's alteration. Meaning in addition to any non elemental Genjutsu, he'd have Genjutsu mastery as well



That's a non-sequitur. Being proficient in the manipulation of a chakra source doesn't make one proficient in all possible applications of that chakra source. I've been over this with you a million times already. Unless you can show me some actual Genjutsu feats, this is just unnecessary conjecture.



> And he has a Dojutsu, which as you just admitted, has Genjutsu properties



Supposedly every Doujutsu has properties related to Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu on some level. But they are better in different areas: Byakugan has shown to be unquestionably the best when it comes to Taijutsu (seeing all around the user with a minimal blind spot, being able to see Tenketsu), Rinnegan has shown a unilateral inclination towards Ninjutsu (all the abilities of the Pain Rikudou, stated to be Doujutsu-based in the fanbook, are Ninjutsu), and with all its feats and the popular strategy for facing users of it all pointing in the same direction, it only follows logically that Sharingan would be the best at Genjutsu. Let alone Mangekyou Sharingan, which is a much higher state of Sharingan.


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## Nikushimi (May 26, 2010)

> Zetsu: What is really comes down to is the skill *and power* of the Shinobi.



Power is irrelevant if not applied for the necessary purpose, so it fits under the umbrella of "proficiency." I mean, you can be incredibly powerful, yet not be applying all that power in a way that is...relevant. Then the "skill" aspect of it comes in. We have literally *nothing* in the way of examples of Nagato's Genjutsu skill, not even so much as a passing comment. He is certainly never shown using Genjutsu, or breaking it for that matter. The only Genjutsu he ever is shown to encounter, renders him completely helpless. And it's not even a superlative Genjutsu, it's just "a strong Genjutsu." If it doesn't sound like I'm particularly impressed, it's because I'm not.



> To most means. Natural energy would be different.
> And Pain was already shown detecting him



That's not suggested anywhere. As for Pain, sure, he may have spotted Zetsu at some point during his fight. He has six sets of eyes, after all. Not sure how else he would do it with no detection abilities besides Ukojize, which he wasn't using at the time. 



> Zetsu is shown able to hear when he's fused with the surfaces. The databook says anyone who hears Frog Song is caught.
> Prove Zetsu was there before the Six Paths came out. Please do.



It can't be proven either way. I don't recall Zetsu ever hearing anything when fully merged with a medium. If he knew a Genjutsu was coming, he very likely could have hidden deep underground. But we can only speculate since it is not actually shown.



> There is no mention of the passage of time between the Pains all coming out and Animal Realm;s death, I'm afraid. Still no proof on your point



You're rather keen on mocking anything that isn't concrete proof despite having none of your own.



> He's mastered Katons. Meaning he's a fire master
> Fuutons, as well. Meaning he's a wind master
> Earth, meaning he's a master with Doton
> Yin and Yang, meaning he's a master with Genjutsu and any other non elemental jutsu



Wait, wait, wait.

1. When did it ever say he mastered any of these things?
2. Since when does mastering an element/non-element automatically make one proficient in all its uses?
3. Since when does mastery of yin and yang chakra in particular equate to mastery of Genjutsu?



Lightysnake said:


> The plot practically shouted "Pain is the strongest in Akatsuki" over and over and when he felt like it, he blew the village Itachi gave his life to protect away because he was pissed.



And then revived everyone over an excerpt from a crappy novel whose author he murdered in cold blood and an idealogical IOU from Naruto. 

Now he's just another Edo Tensei zombie, along with the rest of the dead Akatsuki. Including Itachi.

Also, what you heard the plot shout and what I heard the plot shout seem to be very different things. What I heard was, "Madara is the strongest in Akatsuki, Pain is just another unfortunate subordinate of his like the rest of them." Like my buddy Vegeto ranted about one time, it would be one thing if Pain created Akatsuki and contracted the organization out to Madara, but he doesn't even have THAT under his belt; Pain was never the real leader of Akatsuki, so that title is entirely meaningless on him. He may as well be just another member...albeit one of the very strongest ones.



> I'm a fan of the series' Itachi. Not the construct of Itachi some people tend to create



You're a fan of the construct of Itachi *you* created.



> Sasuke: Orochimaru was weak at the time. That's all there is to it.
> 
> I trust his word on the matter over your own here. Orochimaru himself was at his worst. That makes a difference



Orochimaru was weak because of his host. Hard for that to present a problem once his host has been shed, don't you think? 

Sasuke's statement is obviously only relevant concerning Orochimaru while he was still in his host body, in which he would be capable of casting all kinds of Ninjutsu.



> Zetsu:how can someone with just the Sharingan break the Tsukuyomi?!
> 
> Yeah, I think we can discount the idea 'that statement had nothing to do with Tsukuyomi.



Itachi telling Sasuke to achieve Mangekyou Sharingan was not specifically for the purpose of breaking Tsukuyomi. All Itachi stated in regards to Tsukuyomi was that you need the Sharingan and the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai to break it. Sasuke had both, and on top of THAT, he had the Juin (and used it). And if that wasn't enough, which the databook stats strongly indicate it wasn't, Itachi was technically jobbing to Sasuke in that fight, so the whole thing was more than likely a freebie anyway.



> Name a katon we've seen Nagato use.
> It doesn't change Nagato stated he'd mastered all the alterations and thus has multiple powerful jutsu in each field. Which would include Genjutsu.



First of all, when/where did Nagato state that? Second, mastering elements/alterations does not mean mastering all applications for them. We've been over this, and I don't care to repeat myself.



> And don't Dojutsu all have Genjutsu properties according to you?



According to Kishi, not me. But they have Taijutsu- and Ninjutsu-oriented properties as well. Sharingan happens to be the best at Genjutsu. Just like Byakugan is the best at Taijutsu, and Rinnegan is the best at Ninjutsu.



> Itachi's only Genjutsu you can debate as superior is the Tsukuyomi.



No, all Itachi's Genjutsu can be *debated* as superior. Tsukuyomi is the only given.



> And then there's Senjutsu, two casters, and others that make Frog Song outside the norm



Itachi makes "outside the norm" mean less than shit. Nothing Itachi does in the field of Genjutsu is short of "fucking unbelievable."



> You're loudly proclaiming your opinion as fact. Why are you complaining when I ask you to prove up?



Because you have no proof, so what business do you have demanding it of me? And because it's laughable that you would argue that someone as notorious for his proficiency at Genjutsu is Itachi would be inferior to either Pain or the Ni Dai Sennin at it, the latter of whom's only shown Genjutsu had no superlative claims and the former who actually freaking succumbed to it. A couple of toads who only used one Genjutsu, albeit a strong one, and the guy who was incapacitated by it, are suddenly BOTH valid candidates for being arguably superior to Itachi, the guy who is universally recognized for his excessive and peerless use of it? That's nonsense.



> With a type of chakra Itachi's never faced and cannot handle unless he's a Sage himself.



What an insubstantial, meaningless, and entirely unsupported assertion.



> Not strange the people who heard the Song were fine, despite what the databook says. And what they had in common was they were Sages



Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact they were the ones casting it. Nope, let's just come up with the most bass-ackwards, outlandish, and unsupported explanation we possibly can. Because there's no way it could possibly be as simple as them being unaffected because they cast it.  Nope, we have to take the databook entry verbatum and then twist things around until adhere to that interpretation irrespective of whether or not there's anything to indicate it or whether or not it even makes sense. Amirite?

How you sit down at your computer and type this shit without collapsing in a fit of asthmatic laughter and profound tearful shame is a total mystery to me.



> Your extrapolation. I'm not trusting your opinion on the subject here. We've seen Itachi's best Genjutsu get broken before. And his regular Genjutsu by someone with a 4 in his Genjutsu stat. Even Naruto resisted Ephemeral's attempt to knock him out



No it didn't. Naruto tried to break it, Itachi commented on his improvement, and then Naruto was overwhelmed by the Genjutsu. As for Sasuke, Itachi was jobbing so that he could win.



> Judging by Naruto's boost, an enormous level.



Naruto perfected it, and he has better feats in that form than Jiraiya does. 

And just because I think it's relevant here, it's mentioned in the databook that "the speed of light and a body of steel" are worthless before Tsukuyomi, since it's a metaphysical experience that strips away any ties to the physical world and puts the victim completely at the caster's mercy. Colorful hyperboles, yes, but the concept is valid; physical merits should have no weight in the face of a metaphysical assault.



> From what we've seen, Susanoo is also as dangerous to Itachi as to the enemy



If there were any degree of truth to that, it would make using it a completely unproductive and wasteful mistake. The reason the cost is so great, is because it is so fucking powerful. The fact that someone with as little Stamina as Itachi can even generate what is essentially a temporary faux-Bijuu...is absolutely nothing short of astounding.



> this downplaying of anyone you don't like is beginning to get a tad silly.



Hypocrisy: It's not just a river in Egypt.

...

Wait, I think I did it wrong...


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## Nikushimi (May 26, 2010)

> Lee has nothing on a Sage. He wouldn't be able to touch them and they'd shrug his blows off anyways. If being hit by an enormous charging bull creature did nothing to Jiraiya, Lee'll do what? If falling onto the rocks didn't hurt Naruto, what'll kunai do? Tickle?



Lee with a kunai would shank the motherfuck out of Sennin Jiraiya or Sennin Naruto and almost certainly kill them if they just stood there and took it. They are not durable enough to just withstand something like that. Getting tackled by a giant bull and falling, both of which destributed the force of impact against virtually the entire surfaces of their bodies, aren't comparable to taking a pin-point attack with a blade from someone as strong as Lee.



> They penetrated the skin of someone durable enough to fall a great distance onto sharp sharps and break them without even feeling a thing.
> And again: How does being brittle change sharpness or piercing power? You can sharpen a wooden stake to the point you can draw blood by poking someone. You can still snap one with little effort.
> So, again, durability of the object equates to piercing power?



Kunai and shuriken look pretty sharp to me. The edge of a blade can only be so fine before it stops really making a difference. Sharp is sharp, a blade is a blade, if one cuts the other should too. Simple as.



> Kakuzu only knocks down large gates when he has Domu activates, you might recall.



All that does is harden his body. It doesn't enhance his strength.



> Deidara was injured by the fall. There's no evidence of Sasuke just falling. Even if his snakes died.



What else could Sasuke have done? Also, Deidara's injuries were superficial. To them it was like you or I falling out of a chair. They didn't seem to mind it much.



> Just above just about any other normal human in the manga. Imagine durability feats like that when someone's in Sage Mode.



Sennin Moodo makes the user more durable, not invulnerable. Surviving a fall or a tackle from a giant animal, neither of which are implausible accomplishments for non-Sennin (they'd just got hurt a lot worse by them), are not proof of immunity to regular weapons.



> Shuriken are regular metal. There's never been anything stated to be anything special about their piercing capacity and
> And yes, if two normal human beings fling knives or shuriken at full speed at one another and they connected? I don't know what you think they're made of, but they'd be damaged.



Not really. Maybe scratched, and maybe chipped if repeated enough times. Itachi and Sasuke were shattering the points off, though.



> They're about the same movement when Jiraiya's in base. He's now far faster.



Itachi was half a tier faster than base Jiraiya. Itachi's Speed was a 5, the roof tier. Assuming Sennin Moodo bumps Jiraiya up from 4.5 to 5, which it certainly should, there's little if any reason to assume the gap in speed has done anything but lessen.



> And let's think, safe bet the clone might have less chakra and won't be the one hiding.



Or maybe Itachi will anticipate that like Naruto did against Neji and use that feint to his advantage. :[

Kage Bunshin split the chakra evenly, btw. Karasu Bunshin may be a different story since it's stated to require less to make.



> Hello Deep Fat Fryer.



Senpou: Gouemon is also part Fuuton. It's boiling oil, is what it is. Itachi may be able to make it backfire on J-man with his own Katons as well, exploiting the Fuuton element and all the oil.



> And no, they can compare. Jiriaya has a lot more chakra to put in his katons



So did Sasuke, and he needed the Juin to overpower Itachi in the Katon struggle according to the third databook.



> Evasion of my point. You're basically saying Itachi has answers to literally everything under the sun, including things he's never seen, has no way to counter if it gets off and from a guy who might even be faster? Come on, now



It's not evasion at all, it's a direct rebuttle. You didn't learn anything from it though, as here you are again trying to pretend like Itachi's ability to react to Jiraiya is tantamount to reacting to "everything under the sun."

What Itachi can do, is he can guage bodily movements, anticipate seals, and interrupt. That's all I'm suggesting.



> "I can't sink that snake with such a small swamp."
> 
> The databook even says the swamp can go much, much deeper



The swamp was small for the purposes for which he needed it. Obviously it's not small by any other standard. It could also plausibly mean that it's small relative to what he's ordinarily capable of, which the databook entry would support, but the chances of him using a Yomi Numa even as big as the "small" one against a fighter like Itachi, who he will almost certainly be engaging at close-range for the entire fight, are slim to none. He has no reason to make a bigass swamp anyway.



> Has to form, doesn't it? It did so instantly with the snake he used it on, judging by its sudden surprise with the swamp there immediately after the seal. Or were you referring to the one he used on Pain? Because that just shows he stepped in it. Jiraiya had obviously set it up as a trap already as he wasn't doing any seals for it



"Instantly" is a meaningless, undefined term in this case. The fact that it's manga we're talking about doesn't help already, because even attacks confirmed to travel along trajectories are often depicted forming "instantly." It may happen suddenly, or quickly, but there's nothing to imply it's especially quicker than the onset of any other Ninjutsu.



> Jiraiya makes the seal: swamp appears
> Itachi makes a seal, he has to rear back and blow the fireball



Yes, one panel depicts Itachi rearing back and the very next depicts him spitting fire, just as Yomi Numa depicts Jiraiya forming a seal in one panel and the swamp appearing in the next. Only difference is Itachi has an extra panel depicting him leaning back to show a significant action in the process. What my point is, it doesn't really say much in the way of the time that passes between these panels. There's no reason to think of Yomi Numa as any faster than any other Doton manipulation.



> ICly, Itachi won't use that too quickly. ICly, Jiraiya isn't going to look him in the eye like that.
> He saw Tsukuyomi used. And the after effects.



If Jiraiya doesn't look Itachi in the eye, he's fighting with a significant handicap. And even then, Itachi may still establish eye-contact at some point during battle. If Itachi can't catch Jiraiya, he can always try to catch one of the Ni Dai Sennin with it instead. There are three sets of eyes open, he is bound to glare into one of them.

Or if Jiraiya is really avoiding Tsukuyomi at all costs, as are the Ni Dai Sennin, their eyes are probably averted enough for Itachi to hit them with Amaterasu before they can tell it's coming.



> The ground literally collapses beneath them with ensnaring mud that sucks you under. The snake's body was mostly under instantly and a human is way smaller



So at best it drops out from under the target at the speed of free-fall, but doesn't necessarily drop it all the way to the bottom at the instant of formation. The snake's weight can plausibly be attributed to why it sunk so fast.



Lightysnake said:


> Unless Jiraiya uses a Bunshin feint and makes one behind his back.
> 
> Jiraiya in Sage Mode can make numerous Bunshins. Given his chakra amount, that's no problem for him at all.



He has to...avoid eye-contact to prevent himself from eating a Tsukuyomi...as do the Ni Dai Sennin...and at the same time has to be prepared for having an Amaterasu nut busted in his face at any given moment, from one of the very eyes he is making an effort _not_ to be looking at.

Not seeing much likelihood of J-man pulling it off.



> And Yata's Mirror will instantly get between Itachi and the mud before it all sinks.
> And knowing he's using a Jutsu? doesn't tell him what type. Or HOW to react



Once Itachi starts sinking, he can direct the Yata no Kagami under himself. It's shown to be capable of moving through the ground, as is Susano'o. And he doesn't really need to have knowledge of the Jutsu to deal with it. As long as Jiraiya is avoiding eye-contact while trying to form a Yomi Numa, he's open to either Amaterasu or a stab with the Totsuka no Tsurugi. If he's not avoiding eye-contact, well then...shit, Tsukuyomi, GG.



> Kirin's feat is destroying a mountain. Chou Oodama Rasengan can apparently do the same. And he can form it according to the databook in an instant to swallow someone.



No, Chou Oodama Rasengan can "hollow out a mountain." Kirin completely obliterated one (well TBCH, it wasn't a mountain, it was a stone construct that could be considered the size of one). Furthermore, like I said, there is no standard defined size of a mountain. Chou Oodama Rasengan could most certainly not hollow-out Mt. Everest, so it clearly doesn't mean just _any_ old mountain.



> He'd still certainly get a boost. And a large one given the extent his strength and durability increase.



No one's doubting that. But any of the Mangekyou Big Three, and it's GG.


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## Nikushimi (May 26, 2010)

> Jiraiya: I'm going to be an OOC idiot and look you in the eye despite knowing what you can do from seeing it firsthand.
> Shame an IC ITachi won't be using that right off. Jiraiya is also far more serious than you give him credit for



*cue montage of Jiraiya posing in battle while boasting and carelessly diverting his attention from the immediate threat*

Making eye-contact doesn't have to be, you know...charity on Jiraiya's part. Two people hopping around, obliterating the very ground on which they stand are bound to make eye-contact at some point in their fight.



> Except Yata's Mirror can't react that fast. He has to move it. By that point, he's sunk already. And if Itachi has to expend energy in Susanoo? He's blind from using it, his lifeforce being sucked. He leaps off, Jiraiya can make another. He's got more Senjutsu coming all the time, after all



Why is the speed of the Yata no Kagami an issue? Itachi's going to have plenty of time as he's sinking. Even if it pulls his head under, that's just going to take Jiraiya by surprise when he eventually surfaces and reveals he nullified it.

I'm curious as to how Jiraiya would end up at a distance where the creation of such massive swamps would be practical, however. All Itachi's moves, with the exception of Susano'o, are listed in the databooks as being close-range. He's going to stay on Jiraiya like white on rice.



> So I don't think he could beat people he hasn't shown the ability to and with circumstances against him. Makes me all so biased?



If the completely one-sided red-hot-meatfork ass-rapings Itachi dealt to Orochimaru, Jiraiya's peer, *twice*, don't provide sufficient proof to you of his ability to beat Jiraiya, then yeah, I'm pretty sure u biased.



> Jiraiya's ninjutsu is intrinsic to his characte.r So what? People have lost fights before against their chosen styles.



Jiraiya, though extremely powerful, is nowhere near the top of the ladder, though. So the comparison is invalid. When it comes to Genjutsu, Itachi is the top of that ladder. He may as well be the ladder itself. "Genjutsu" may as well be called "Itachi."



> None of the Paths can use Genjutsu and Jiraiya obviously needs the two hermits who chill out at Mt. Myobokuzan usually.
> and maybe it could just be that most people don't use Genjutsu. Hiruzen had a 5 in it and did fine



Hiruzen was "The Professor", highly regarded for his extensive mastery of Jutsu and exceptional proficiency in all aspects of being a shinobi. But even he could not break Shodai's Kokuangyou no Jutsu, an A-Rank, Doujutsuless, non-Senjutsu Genjutsu. All this really does is lend further credence to the idea that Itachi is unrivalled at Genjutsu because of who he is, what he has, and how much he relies on it, and that Pain and Jiraiya aren't as good because it just isn't their thing.



> Familiar with the old adage of falling on your sword? Put a giant stake fifty to a hundred feet below you. Fall on it. Headfirst or not. It'll rip through you like nothing from the sheer force alone.
> The piercing potential would be genuinely greater than just a throw or stab



Naruto didn't fall on a sword. He fell on anonymous rock which, though jagged, was not honed to a razor's edge like a blade.



> Because Naruto's usage of it= Jiraiya, right?
> Also, Naruto's never exploded, which is the mountain buster



Why wouldn't Naruto's usage of it be comparable to Jiraiya's? It was just as big. Sennin Naruto certainly isn't inferior to Sennin Jiraiya. And since when does Rasengan, of ANY variety, explode? It caused no collateral damage because the summons it hit were durable enough to remain intact from it.



> Why am I shedding no tears?
> I think he might be equaled by two separate cases. When I argue Kurenai equals him, then you can say I'm underrating him.



If you're comparing a couple of toads who only have one strong Genjutsu at their disposal and the guy who fell prey to that Genjutsu to Itachi, then you are underrating him. Severely.



> I'm sorry, did you just call Gottheim's translation 'shoddy?' He's one of the best, most respected fan translators



I don't doubt that, but that particular translation of his isn't accurate.



> He also said it wouldn't matter what backup he had against Jiraiya
> And you also argue Kisame>>>>>Jiraiya. When Kisame admits that Jiraiya>Him.



When he says backup doesn't matter, this is something you can't take literally, otherwise you end up with another illogical fustercluck founded on literal interpretation where it isn't warranted. If Pain was Itachi's backup, or if the entire rest of Akatsuki was Itachi's backup, what then? You don't think Itachi's statement would still be valid, do you? I certainly hope not.

As for Kisame, he didn't state Jiraiya was better than him. He said Jiraiya was "on a different level", neglecting to specify what or who he was on a different level from, while saying in the exact same panel that he didn't know if he could beat Jiraiya or not.



> And you just confirmed what I said: Itachi feared, even with help, he could at best tie.



In that particular scenerio, trying to capture Naruto. Since that's what was relevant.



> Oh, and Itachi doesn't even know about Sage Mode



There's nothing to support that. If Itachi was confident enough to make an assertion of his chances, it's safe to say he knew Jiraiya well enough to do so. It's not like Sennin Moodo is any secret, since Shima chastises Jiraiya for always summoning herself and Fukasaku when he's on one of his "wild rampages." Implying Jiraiya's Sennin Moodo escapades are both frequent and incredibly violent.

If you honestly think the best Itachi can do, with Kisame's help, irrespective of backup, is tie base Jiraiya, then I don't know what to say. Maybe I'll just neg you and go do something more productive, like cut my dick off.



> Based on? See the bull. It was bigger than the rhino



No, not really. And the rhino was much more massive-looking than the bull. Rhinoscaling estimates put it in the realm of at least 200 tons, and Sennin Naruto caught its charge and chucked that fucker into next week.



> So if Jiraiya dodges or just uses toad silhouette and then they use the frog croak, does Itachi's sharingan block it or does he have a vulnerability?



That depends, what is Itachi doing while Jiraiya is progressing through three different actions? Just standing there?

Because right from square one, as Jiraiya dodges, he's just as vulnerable to Amaterasu- or if he's looking into Itachi's eyes, Tsukuyomi -as ever.



> You're expecting katons and shurikens to work on people whose skin might as well be made of metal given how it breaks sharp stone?



Stone breaks stone. What kind of stone are we even talking about here? Sandstone? Granite? Stone ranges from the shit that crumbles in your fingers to, well...diamond.



> Ordinarily. That's what Sage mode fixes.
> And I want evidence that Pain's chakra rods are no sharper than a kunai. We've seen Kunai fail to penetrate things before.



Visibly speaking, there is no difference between the sharpness of Pain's rods and a standard kunai. If anything, kunai look sharper. Pain's rods have never pierced anything except flesh and Sennin flesh, which is basically just extra-durable flesh.


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## Nikushimi (May 26, 2010)

> It's a feint. And Itachi doesn't know that. It doesn't take a genius to know the one trying to distract you is the bunshin. And it disallowes a sneak attack.



Neji thought the same thing.



> If Itachi makes a bunshin, Jiriaya makes one too, besides



The only point of Itachi making a clone would be to escape or divert a technique like the croaking Ninjutsu. Hopefully setting up an opening for Amaterasu.



> It's an elemental fusion like Kakuzu's attacks. The katon will deal with any of Itachi's own fireballs



The Katon is just used to ignite the oil and is spread by the Fuuton. It's not powerful enough to repel Itachi's Katon.



> Yeah, Jiraiya can dodge a katon easily. Or just cancel it with his own while the two use Frog Croak



If Jiraiya dodges, then Itachi can escape an attempted croak. If Jiraiya tries to counter Katon with Katon...he hasn't shown any Katons capable of matching Itachi's on his own.



Lightysnake said:


> Except Itachi has to prep Amaterasu. And he's likely to hit a Bunshin instead



Amaterasu requires no prep other than closing his eye and reopening it. He should be able to keep track of any clone feints thanks to Sharingan, and Kage Bunshin is a technique he would actually recognize.



> Becaus ehe'd know exactly what Shima and Fukasaku can do. Jiraiya's movement speed is at the very, vERY least equal to Itachi here



Sharingan. He can see how their bodies will move before they do, so he can predict what kind of attack to look out for and react accordingly, or even simply launch a counterattack to disrupt them regardless of what technique they try to use.

With Shunshin, Itachi should be able to achieve speeds faster than Sennin Jiraiya's normal movement speed, just as Sennin Jiraiya should be able to achieve even faster speeds with Shunshin thanks to having a greater amount of chakra he can use for it (Shunshin is faster the more chakra is applied, hence why Raikage amped it up to Bijuu-level and was aim-dodging Amaterasu).



> Oh, so Pain doesn't even need a special toy to become invincible is what you're saying. Especially given Pain can absorb or disperse Susanoo



Pretty much, but it's also different kinds of invincible; physical impassability compared with undefeated/undefeatable status. Gakidou couldn't absorb Itachi's Susano'o, however, as long as Itachi defends against it with the Yata no Kagami to nullify Fuujutsu Kyuuin.



> Two translations giving the literal definition have it being said that even with backup, Itachi says he still fears the best they could do would die.
> Kisame doesn't just say he was 'unsure.' He said Jiraiya was flat out better than him.
> Itachi plainly admitted worry of Jiraiya and he has no idea of Jiraiya's stronger form.



Those two translations are inaccurate fan translations, "backup" obviously has a very limited meaning, and Kisame never states that Jiraiya is better than himself- *he says he doesn't know*.

As for Itachi not knowing about Sennin Moodo, there is nothing to support that, and the idea of base Jiraiya being able to take down Itachi or Kisame let alone both of them simultaneously is absurd. Orochimaru was smacking him around like an infant under a mutual handicap and stated the result would be no different even if they were at their peak.



> Except he isn't and the manga went out of its way to paint them as equals. Assuming Kishimoto changed his mind from deciding Jiraiya could take Kisame and Itachi simultaneously according to Itachi



Orochimaru=Jiraiya.

Itachi is leaps and bounds above Orochimaru.

Ergo, Itachi is leaps and bounds above Jiraiya. Transitive property.



> Wow. Itachi can beat Hashirama and Prime Madara? On the same level as Minato.
> 
> Overrated a bit much methinks.



Why? It's stated that Hiruzen eventually surpassed his predecessors (Shodai being one of them), and his fight with the Edo Tensei zombies reflected that. Speaking of which, those zombies didn't show anything particularly impressive, and aside from being mindless drones, they weren't watered down in any way. As for young Madara, I view him as basically being all eyes and no substance, since all he really did to achieve power was spam Mangekyou Sharingan until he went blind and then take his brother's eyes.

It's either that, or I accept that Shodai is just that fucking strong, which makes Hiruzen even stronger, which in turn makes Orochimaru stronger for killing him, which in turn makes Itachi stronger for so easily raping Orochimaru... HEY WAIT A MINUTE. Yeah, it just fucks up the powerscaling all sorts of bad. Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be the case, but in the absence of any substantial evidence and in light what we do know, it makes more sense to me if I think of it the other way. That Shodai and young Madara just weren't as strong as they were hyped up to be. It may change as more is revealed.



> How many unambiguously cruel and evil things do you do as part of an act before you stop being unambiguously good? "It was an act" doesn't make Kurenai or Asuma less dead if Gai hadn't rescued the day.



Gai did "rescue the day", though, so what exactly is your major maladjustment?



> Anyways, I'm tired of making enormous posts in this thread.



I am too. But I will keep going as long as I need to. The crest in my sig ain't just for show. I wear it with pride. 


EDIT: Oh yeah, and:


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> And they are giving it to him constantly, which will disrupt any attempt to manipulate his chakra.
> Thanks for coming


Which part of "Nature energy is not chakra" you don't understand ?

True, they are constantly(or in some intervals) giving him nature energy. Yet it has no chakra disrupting properties because nature energy is not chakra.




> Despite seeing noticeable speed increases in Sage Mode


We haven't seen Jiraiya's base engage in taijutsu of any form, so yeah you can't make a valid comparison.



> Naruto's obvious speed boosts in Sage Mode would demonstrate an easy 4.5 or 5 in speed. Jiraiya's a 4.5 in base


There wasn't any major speed boost, because well, even the hungry ghost realm went toe to toe with Naruto in physical exchange who happens to have 0 speed feats.
Besides, Naruto has mastered sage mode which Jiraiya himself couldn't accomplish. In that case using Naruto as an example for Jiraiya's feats is plain wrong, its like saying that Itachi has the ability to use enton just because we've seen Sasuke use it.



> and here



Oh that ? Thats more of a jumping feat, plus it isn't that impressive given that he closed the distance during the time his slipper fell down with the speed of gravity. It doesn't come close to Itachi and Sasuke moving faster than their own projectiles in close range. 





> In base, it might as well be compared to Itachi and Jiraiya has shown nothing that rapidly depletes it to the extent of the MS.
> And in Sage Mode, he's not running out


IF he had no worries of running out of chakra, then why didn't he constantly use taxing techniques ?  Like creating KBs one after another ?



> Or Jiraiya, knowing damn well what the Sharingan does, will fight smart and not let Itachi see his seals.


How ? Is he going to turn his hands invisible or something ? 



> And he'll stop someone as fast as Jiraiya in Sage Mode how? With Fukasaku and Shima covering him?



Hold on a second, this is Jiraya not Raikage... You are pretty delusional about this speed stuff.

If Jiraiya was fast enough to outspeed a guy with tier 5 speed and sharingan prediction, he'd run circles around Pain and kill him without any effort. 



> Yeah, know something hilarious? Animal Realm can see chakra, too and didn't see the Yomi Numa on the ceiling Jiraiya'd formed. Pain's shown damned good senses and reactions, too.


Because animal realm wasn't looking at the ceiling : 
Fatty was busy with the fireball and human realm was blind. Thats why he didn't see it.
Getting tagged by Konohomaru contradicts with him having good senses. 
Kakashi and Naruto tricked deva realm multiple times aswell.



> But he can escape CAUSE HE'S ITACHI


No, because he has the means to escape it, body/reaction speed, intelligence and the ability to see through jutsus. Its plain dumb to assume that he'd be taken down by a technique like yomi numa easily. I mean, if it took a single Yomi numa to take down guys on Itachi's level, why didn't Jiraiya simply invade the Akatsuki hideout Gai style(the GB fanfic about Gai soloing the akatsuki, if you didn't know) and killed them all with yomi numa spam ?

IF it was the most effective technique he had, why did he use Toad Stomach against Itachi and Kisame in the hotel ? OR why didn't he use it repeatedly against Pain or Orochimaru ?
Hell, why couldn't he deal with the 3 of lesser Pain's bodies with yomi numa ?



> Well, gee, he can only control the size of it. Sink target and not himself. Simple.


Smaller the size is, it is easier to run away from it.



> Or hell, just trap him like Kakashi did and use a bunshin


This isn't the shouten clone of Itachi who wasn't seriously engaging the enemy. This is Itachi himself and no, Jiraiya trapping Itachi with a KB is completely circumstantial and it enters the category meta gaming and my answer to that would be  : Itachi captures Jiraiya with finger genjutsu beforehand, or he simply escapes via Kawarimi or he uses a crowbunshin to deal with Jiraiya's KB.



> A rank refers to difficulty, not power.


The difficulty of attaining a jutsu also defines its level.



> And nice work, calling Pain's main Taijutsu body and arguably the fastest fodder.


Lol. Did that body accomplish anything at all ? No, first it got his face caved in, and then against Naruto he got vaporised instantly. He is fodder, and he has no feats.



> What does Itachi have to counter it precisely? Oh, wait, he can randomly SENSE the danger. Because he's ITACHI, yo. He can do anything, even counter instant moves he has absolutely no canonical knowledge of


Yes, he can sense danger and see through ninjutsu with his bloodline ability,  he is probably the shinobi with the most keen senses in the manga. Also its funny how you call Yumi numa instant and that it cannot be countered, yet you'd probably claim that Jiraiya could probably counter Amaterasu.



> Yeah, like Jiraiya wouldn't use a bunshin to trick Itachi like he did Pain for....some reason.


Itachi wouldn't be tricked because he isn't Pain.




> Oh, so kind of Itachi to halve his chakra. Never mind in Sage mode, Jiraiya will kind of nullify using Bunshin feints as he can sense wherever Itachi is


Jiraiya hasn't shown the ability to do so(else why would he need fukasaku and shima to detect the chamelon?), but even if we assume that he has the ability, he cannot differentiate the kb from the original.




> Yes, yes, yes. We all know Itachi always has some excuse. His Shoten Clone had his strength and speed. It was equivalent to Itachi fighting without his MS.


No, was limited in stamina too. He didn't even move during the whole encounter. Also, he didn't have any problems with getting caught because he didn't even attempt to free himself from the grasp of the Kb and he wasn't there to fight them seriously. For one, he wasn't their enemy and for two, he was there to only delay them. That wasn'T Itachi in character. Too many different circumstances here.



> We saw him fall for one to a high level opponent. Let's see him see through that of a higher level opponent


Kakashi has shown pretty good bunshin feints where as Jiraiya hasn't at least nothing on the level of Kakashi's, because well Kakashi is alot smarter.



> The only reason Itachi ensnared Naruto was because he didn't know of Utakata. Chiyo, SAkura and Kakashi displayed no issues not looking Itachi in the eye


Jiraiya doesn't know about the finger genjutsu aswell. Also not looking Itachi in the eye isn't hard, even I can do that, but the issue here is being able to fight while avoiding eye contact. Now Sakura and Chiyo couldn't do that, they just took their gaze off Itachi's eyes and stood there and did absoultely nothing through out the entire battle. Kakashi on the other hand learned it from a guy who invented the method during his friendly battles against a Sharingan user.
There is absolultely no evidence that Jiraiya is even aware of this method, or has practiced it enough to be able to use it in battle. Pure fanfic so moving on...



> Given how slow it seems to burn, yes. It took how long to burn through Karin's clothing?


We don't need to pick Sasuke's feats here, when we have Itachi's own feats. We've seen Itachi use it on frog stomach, something extremely durable against fire, a Katon and Sasuke's cs2 wing and all of them burned pretty fast.

So I am asking you one more time, can Jiraiya pull out a sealing scroll and perform the sealing on Amaterasu while being consumed by it ?



> Never mind Shima and Fukasaku can kind of cover that for him


IF they don't get consumed by amaterasu, which is highly likely since they are a part of Jiriaya's body, they may actually try that, it would take a couple of seconds though which would be enough for Amaterasu to eradicate Jiraiya.



> Yes, yes, Itachi is never serious, Itachi is godly, Itachi can't be beat, we've heard it all before.


IF you got a problem with that, take it to the author of the manga, because he is the one writing it.



> Unfortunately, Jiraiya will fight seriously. And against him, Itachi feared the best he could do was tie.


He was lying to Kisame, because well, if he didn't, they would have to kill Jiraiya.
Although even after hearing that, Kisame said "why is a retreat necessary ? You could have..." 



> And he didn't even know about Sage Mode, now did he? In fact, the only time we even saw Jiraiya fight at full power was against Pain. Great measuring stick


Oh this chuunin level argument..
So are you saying that Itachi knew everything about Jiraiya except Sage mode ? Because that sounds like it. 

But no, he was solely talking based on Jiraiya's reputation and guess how Jiraiya built that reputation ? By not using Sage mode ? On the contrary, Jiraiya's reputation involves everything he has done up to that point.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2010)

> Oh, look, arbitrary definitions of something unconfirmed.
> Sure it can sink Susanoo if it sinks Itachi.


If you haven't noticed, Susano'o is kinda floating so no it is impossible to sink Susano'O. Besides, Susano'o is a chakra construct we haven't seen the effect of the swamp on chakra.



> Jiraiya instantly sank the snake. If he was on full chakr,a he would've sunk it completely right there. He made the seal? Snake was trapped, period. Yeah, that's pretty instant.


Yet the Yomi numa he used in Sage mode didn't sink Human realm instantly.So I guess thats what we should base our argument on here, since Jiraiya is in sage mode in this match up.



> And Susanoo has shown these properties when? At best it can use the Yata no Kagami to...nullify the mud touching the yata no Kagami. If Jiraiya felt like it and has the chakra, he could sink them a mile deep. It'll also be hard to lift them out if Jiraiya makes the swamp bigger than the arms of the Susanoo can reach


And when did Jiraiya has shown the ability to sink something instantly a mile deep ? 
Also it is OOC for Jiraiya to create a swamp so big for a human sized target, it is as if he is predicting that Itachi will use Susano'o to get himself out of it.



> Itachi had to form handseals against Sasuke to prepare for Amaterasu actually
> 
> Here


Handseals weren't for Amaterasu, he was only baiting Sasuke into using his arsenal further. Sasuke used up the summoning tatoos with that attack which was Itachi's goal. 
Amaterasu never required any handseals. Are you sure you fully comprehend this manga ?



> And here it looks so instant, too.


Yes, all it took for him was a blink. 



> You can see him making seals and he has to focus for it.


What handseals ? What focusing. He simply closes his eye and re opens it, it is instantaneous. IT is a process much faster than performing handseals for a technique.



> Of course, Yomi Numa is an ample answer to Susanoo


Lol.Like Susano'o would get effected by Yomi numa. 


> and unlike Itachi, Jiraiya doesn't need to hold his best moves in reverse.


Neither does Itachi. He instantly used Amaterasu to get out of Frog stomach, and used Tsukiyomi to dispatch Kakashi instantly since they were running out of time, so in necessity he doesn't hold back. That is a misundersting of his character in your part.

Do you believe Itachi will hold back everything untill the very end like he did against Sasuke ? But that is OOC for him here, since his goal is not to deplete Jiraiya's stamina. He will try to finish Jiraiya off as quickly as possible, and if he deems necessary he can start using MS any moment. 

Its funny how you claim that Itachi will be overwhelmed by Jiraiya and yet he'll detain himself from using MS. How does that even make any sense ? 
If you believe that Jiraiya is an opponent who can casually handle Itachi, you should also believe that Itachi would be forced to use MS from the very beginning. 





> Or there's Frog Croak, which Shima and Fukasaku do whenever the heck they want.


And Itachi can nail them with Kunais eyes closed whenever he wants.



> Way to avoid skirting the question entirely!
> I mean, not like there was a whole clan of Sharingan users around that the toads have shown to be aware of, when even random messenger toad knows about Madara Uchiha.



And even random guys like Ibiki and Shikamaru's father and people I can't remember know about Rikodou sennin yet they were completely helpless against Pain.

We have seen an encounter between Itachi and Jiraiya, and Jiraiya didn't even try to avoid eye contact. I guess he didn't even know about basic sharingan genjutsu ? 
Chiyo who actively battled against Uchiha's in the past(which neither the toads nor Jiraiya have done) didn't know about Tsukiyomi or Gai's method of fighting sharingan users.

Again you are in the realm of fanfic again, before you put up an argument, make sure you can back it up with the manga or the databook.



> And they are kind of fused there. They can kai him out if he can't break out himself.



Sure, I agree with that, but sometimes even a momentary distraction is enough, especially when you are up against someone as fast as Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, because them having to prepare Frog Song was really having nothing to do with it.


So it required them 800 years of experience to remember they had an AOE genjutsu in their reserves ?




> What'll Itachi do, use his gravity powers on them?


He can attack them with anything to disrupt their concentration.



> And no feats? Funny as we've seen plenty from them, including:
> The jutus they used to force Animal Realm to summon the others. The high level katons and, unless that was filler, suitons. Massive physical strength, Fukasaku was shown fighting Sage Mode Naruto in Taijutsu to train him and almost doubtlessly knows Frog Katas. They have Frog Croak, which instantly stuns just about anything, and Frog Song.


What high level katon ? What suiton ?

They were almost a non factor in Naruto's fight against Pain, one of them became a shiskebab and the other got oneshotted by something I even don't remember.



> Saw him caught by Frog Song? No? Didn't think so.
> We saw NAruto able to resist Itachi partially. Jiraiya only admits he doesn't use Genjutsu. He knows how to break it. And in Sage Mode, Jiraiya's Genjutsu abilities greatly increase.
> Evidence Itachi cna catch him there? Any? Didn't think so



Naruto knew how to break it aswell, that didn't help him. Itachi labeled his attempt as "weak".



> And in Sage Mode, he has two partners who can just attack Itachi WHILE breaking him out simultaneously.


I don't understand what you mean by this.



> So? Utakata was no weaker. The usage of a genjutsu like that costs minimal chakra and the Shoten is basically Itachi with just 30 percent of Chakra.


Shouten is Itachi formed by Itachi's 30% chakra, so his power is respective to that.



> There's a large gap between 2 and 3. 2 is abysmal. 3 is pretty alright and Jiraiya only admits he doesn't use it as it's not his forte. He never claimed he sucks at it. Itachi can counter Naruto there who used to suck at it. No evidence he can do that to someone older and way stronger
> 
> Even if your'e not a Genjutsu type, you can still counter it. Like we've seen Gai do. Otherwise, Kurenai and Kabuto would've walked over Jiraiya.


What about the gap between 5 and 3 ? Itachi also was able to cast genjutsu on Deidara, who happens to have tier 3.5 genjutsu and yet he was completely helpless against it. Orochimaru was able to dispell(not in time though) Itachi's genjutsu, yet he has 5 in genjutsu department.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that Jiraiya is proficient enough. 
Best case scenario, he struggles alot to break it which would give Itachi the chance he needs to close in and cut his head off.

Gai didn't counter genjutsu btw, he simply found a method to avoid eye contact and fight at the same time. He would still fall for ukataka.



> When was he fighting Kakashi WHILE the Genjutsu was working? Seem Kakashi was attacking as Chiyo and Sakura helped Naruto. Both methods would've disrupted it


No, Kakashi was fended off, he was on his way back which means they engaged before the genjutsu was dispelled by Chiyo and Sakura.




> Used 'more and much more effectively' based on...? Jiraiya also used another Bunshin with Konan. His Toad Silhouette is one of his best feints. Oh, and In Sage Mode, bunshin feints probably won't work on a guy who cna sense where you are anyways.


Itachi created bunshins in the midst of the battle, not before hand and yet people weren't able to tell the difference.
Like I already answered above, Jiraiya hasn't shown the ability to sense locations in sage mode. 



> And 'dispatched' Kakashi KB? Ummm, interesting interpretation.
> 
> Because Itachi was attacked by one designed to capture him-mission succeeded- and here we see Naruto actually destroying it.


Yeah, he handled the KB, Itachi grapled him successfully. He could have nailed it with a kunai or anything, he chose to use genjutsu instead.



> And base Genjutus doesn't work as well if you're going against a guy with two partners on his shoulder who are attacking as well.


it will work as a momentary distraction. Besides, MA and PA used their abilities in conjunction with Jiraiya, it is not like they are on the offense all the time. 


> Yeah, because he certainly wouldn't study it later what with knowing he'd have to protect Naruto from Itachi. He certainly didn't have access to some great sages or anything with knowledge of the great Doujutsu.


Prove it or drop it.




> Utakata catching Sage Mode Jiraiya is blatantly hysterica, too. A jutsu a much weaker base Naruto could partially resist working on a Sannin?


Even if Jiraiya is capable of breaking free from Utakata, he can'T do it instantly, it is a process and even a 1 or 2 seconds delay will give Itachi the chance to expose an oppening. Itachi can use genjutsu like bunshin feints Naruto uses, even if the opponent realizes that it is a bunshin feint, it gives enough time for Naruto to expose an oppening.
Take the ORO - Itachi enconter as an example. Oro had the necessary proficiency to break the genjutsu but still Itachi exposed Oro's momentary weakness and cut off his hand.



> And somehow, I think if Itachi tries the seals for Amaterasu and closes his eye when it starts leaking blood and focusing, Jiraiya ain't gonna stay waving to him and Fukasaku and Shima won't do nothing


There will be no seals because Amaterasu is one of the MS techniques which does not require handseals. 
Also the moment Jiraiya sees the leaking blood, Amaterasu will be all over him so it will be too late. 



> The one time he did that? It was apparently a Tsukuyomi as he and Sasuke had moved quite a bit from where they were standing when it supposedly began.


It was not Tsukiyomi. Tsukiyomi started when it focused on Itachi's eye and everything went ape shit after that.



> Jiraiya wasting his moves on Genjutsu when he's well versed in breaking it, has two partners and his resistance to it has gone up a lot is hilarious. Itachi can feel free to halve his chakra all he likes but Jiraiya will know there's two Itachis by virtue of sensing them.


Like I said, feint is a feint, the opponent gives an oppening and Itachi won't let the opportunity go to waste. 



> Kakashi also kept up with Itachi's seal speed and Taijutsu fine post time skip.


No he didn't, he admitted that he couldn't follow up the seals and he was already exhausted and hurt(by self admission) before Itachi used Tsukiyomi on him.


> Pardon me for being less than impressed against a much faster sensor than Kakashi.


faster sensor ?



> Never mind Shima and Fukasaku need to clap their hands to use Frog Croak. And given the positions of the charging Summons before and after, it happens nigh instantly


It is kinda easier to hit a huge animal than it is to hit a shinobi with tier 5 speed who can also counter attack.


> Just like every Uchiha fan believes happens in Itachi's fights!
> How about we're discussing scenarios?
> 
> "Why do my shurikens bounce off their skin?"


Jiraiya is vulnerable against piercing attacks, as we've seen the animal realm, who happens to have no strength feats was able to pierce Jiraiya with his sharp stick.



> Tell me, what is Itachi's defense to Frog Croak? One of the fastest moves Shima and Fukasaku seem to have and paralyzes the enemy?


fastest ? Even if it is fast, it isn't 'Itachi' fast. 



> Jiraiya doesn't even need handseals for Chou Oodama Rasengan and formed one while in midair.


Yeah, but does it matter, since Jiraiya needs to engage in taijutsu to be able to deliver it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2010)

> Shima and Fukasaku executed Frog Croak instantly judging by the positions of the before and after summons. And in Sage Mode, Jiraiya won't be left in the dirt in...oh...anything



In sage mode or not, Itachi can execute his jutsus faster than him which is canon.



> Oh, goodie. How does Itachi know Jiraiya's abilities?
> Jiraiya has:


In the realm of FAnfic, like yours, he knows them from Orochimaru who happened to be in the same organization with Itachi. 
Itachi also used to be ex anbu and a fellow citizen of Konoha, a friend of Madara, so it is safe to assume that he might have known about Jiraiya.



> A. Done research on Akatsuki and knows about members of it thanks to his keeping tabs on Orochimaru. He was well aware every member was an S-rank criminal and one of them with Itachi. He even warned Kakashi of this


yet he absolutely had no idea about Itachi's abilities. Nice research there.



> B. He saw Itachi use Tsukuyomi. He also would've heard it from Kakashi


The only thing he probably knows about.



> C. He saw Amaterasu and its aftereffects and sealed it for further study.


Which we haven't heard nothing about. And he doesn't have to make a research about Amaterasu to know that it is extremely deadly. He doesn't know how it is executed which is the key here.



> Itachi researched Jiraiya when? What moves has he seen?
> Well, he must know something to believe he and Kisame would both have trouble...In fact? Let's ask Gottheim, from his translation of chapter 144:
> Kisame: You should be able to take him down one one way or another, but I don't know how I'd fare.../We aren't in the same league.
> Itachi: Yeah...If we face him, the both of us might get killled./Or we'll pull off a mutual strike down if we do well./...Even coming in greater numbers might not make much of a change.


He wasn't being honest, I mean after dispatching Oro with relative ease, it doesn't make any sense for him to be threatened by the presence of another Sannin. 
IF he said " Yeah I can take him Kisame", they would have to take down Jiraiya, but Itachi said that they would tie, so he could use it as an excuse to retreat. Yet Kisame had to add : "Why is a retreat necessar for you... You could have.."
Which means Kisame thought that Itachi could have handled Jiraiya under those circumstances, which is quite true, because nothing could prevent from Itachi doing the same thing he did to Oro to Jiraiya.




> Kisame: We thought we'd finally found him at the ramen shop... But his baby-sitter just had to be *one of the Legendary Sannin./Even the names of Konoha's Uchiha clan and that of the Seven Shinobi Swordsmen of the Mist pale before an adversary like him*.


And that was 7 years after Itachi dispatched Orochmaru - A LEGENDARY SANNIN - without any efforts. 
Kisame was solely talking about reputation. Had he known Itachi ate Sannin @ breakfast, would he still say that ?



> Evidence? Jiraiya's entire body is rendered much more durable, there's no evidence that a freakung kunai will so much as scratch him givne what broke off on Naruto.


What broke off on Naruto ?



> And sure, he can summon susanoo. With ample warning, sure. When Sasuke rambles on for a minute or two, he cam prepare. In a straight, close quarters fight, please. If Itachi tries Taijutsu, he can't even block before a hit from Jiraiya will splinter his bones. Shima and Fukasaku can nail him at close range with katons or their tongues. Or with Frog Croak.


Yes he can form it faster than a lightning can strike, so unless Jiraiya can act faster than a lightning, there will be no problems.
Sasuke has done it aswell, in close quarter combat before he even fully mastered it, both against Raikage and Danzou.
If Itachi really needs to block(he can always dodge) he would be pretty shaken but no, his bones will be intact. Deva Realm, who happens to be on the same strength tier with Kakashi blocked a full powered kick from Naruto(who is stronger than Jiraiya) and yet he was able to stand after that. Shima and fukasaku hasn't shown any effectiveness in close range combat, so no they can't do those things you mentioned. Frog croak is probably not as instantaneous as you think because all they were able to hit was a huge animal moving in a linear direction.



> Tell me, what prevents them from using Frog Croak right off like they did on Pain in round two? It'll work fine on Itach


What prevents Itachi from just, moving away, or hitting them with shurikens when they try to use it ? 
They also didn't use it on pain, they used it on summons. 



> Hilarious overhyping of Itachi's abilities, too, when Kakashi, someone way slower than Sage Mode Jiraiya kept up with him in Taijutsu.


Kakashi might be physically slower than Jiraiya but he has sharingan prediction which allows him to see the next move his opponent is going to make. Remember the Vote fight between Naruto and Sasuke ? Sharingan was able to close a tremendous speed gap. Besides, when did Kakashi ever keep up with Itachi's taijutsu ?



> And evidence Sage Mode increases speed: Note the distance between Tsunade and the toads. Naruto is STANDING on one
> 
> 
> So, Asura, a realm fast enough-when horrendously damaged and can barely move- to intercept Kakashi's Raikiri is attacking Tsunade. Inches from her
> ...



I covered that long time ago, but since you are new, I'll do that one more time for you.
That is what we call, "Main character Dramatic Entry feat". 
First off, Naruto was not Pain's target.
He also was out of the combat.
And that feat was not repeated through out the battle,not even once and Naruto was equally matched in speed department by Pain. 
Similar examples : 

Was Naruto really fast enough to cover that distance, faster than Kabuto can punch ? If so, why wasn't it repeated again ? 


So pre skip Naruto could move faster than Oro could realize ? Then why didn't he keep doing that ?

So unless we see such feat used in combat, we can't take it as a quantifiable speed feat. 
Also, like I said, Naruto had mastered sage mode, his benefits would be naturally greater than Jiraiya.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Wow this place got hot again. Two people who posted 4+ times in a row against the same person? Glad I'm not in this debate.

 But IMO HM Jiraiya wins 6/10 with high to extreme difficulty.


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## Jinnobi (May 26, 2010)

Jiraiya has no answer to Amaretsu, no counter to Tsukiyomi, no way to avoid finger jutsu besides not looking which is lethal, and absolutely no answer to Susano'o besides dying.

Itachi takes this with little difficulty: 10/10


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## EJ (May 26, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Hypocrisy: It's not just a river in Egypt.
> 
> ...
> 
> Wait, I think I did it wrong...



Denial river!


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 27, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Wow this place got hot again. Two people who posted 4+ times in a row against the same person? Glad I'm not in this debate.



Thats what we call a Double Lariat @ 300km/h 



> But IMO HM Jiraiya wins 6/10 with high to extreme difficulty.



Imo, you are wrong.


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## IzanagiRikudo (Jun 8, 2010)

Itachi wins with moderate to high difficulty. He is fast enough to evade most of Jiraiya's attacks. Yomi Numi can be absorbed by Totsuka Blade, same with any Boss Summon. If Itachi captures Jiraiya in Tsukuyomi, then it's game over. Ma and Pa wouldn't have enough time to get Jiraiya out of Tsukuyomi before he's down (Tsukuyomi for Itachi only takes 1 second in reality). Amaterasu could possibly end it as well. Jiraiya's only real chance in this battle is Frog Song, but I doubt he'll have the time to execute it.


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## Shiorin (Jun 9, 2010)

Jiraiya has no answer to any of the MS powers.

Itachi cannot use Kyo Tenchi-ten when paralyzed by Gamarinshou to escape the illusion, but he would never let the stupid toads pull it off.

Itachi should win this with moderate difficulty, 8/10.


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## efmp1987 (Jun 9, 2010)

1. Jiraiya can't escape Tsukuyumi - it only lasts a second or two. Pa or Ma wouldnt know that very MICRO second that Jiraiya is trapped in one, and the time it will take for them to dispel the genjutsu will be around a second or two. killer bee managed to dispel sasukes moon reader is because there was "something" inside his consciousness.

2. Jiraiya can't outlast amaterasu, only those with speeds greater than minato can. the hachibi got hit(he could've, to save him from losing a tentacle, but he didnt, because he wasnt able to), madara got hit(he could've avoided it to save him from "temporary" pain, but he didnt, because he wasnt able to), heck, even the raikage got one too.

3. Susano'o. well this is tough, a CARELESS jiraiya though will be done in a second.

4. base genjutsu - itachi far surpasses even HM jiraiya-sama, and this is FAR from jiraiya's forte

5. frog song-the execution of this jutsu is really long, if jiraiya can hide somewhere else to give time for the toads, then he might pull it off, but i dont know, even though it affects the hearing, its still a genjutsu, and genjutsus are defined as "sense affecting". if itachi can dispel visual genjutsu, who's to say he cant do the same to an auditory one. and oh, if the toads starts to quarrel about some jutsu, then itachi will know that somethings coming, and its big. after all, ninjas only hesitate on the big things.

6. ninjutsu - jiraiya has lots of it, he's well versed at it, but they're not kekkei genkai in nature, so you know what I mean. if kakashi can copy a thousand jutsu, then what on earth can itachi's sharingan do?... ohhh i know, you'll say that jiraiya samas ninjutsu are of the highest level, but for panzers sake(my dog), the only jutsu ive seen that seems to be higher in level than susano-o is mugen tsukuyomi, and if itachi can perform a really high level jutsu, whos to say that he cant perform a "just" high level jutsu?. and oh, the three most powerful jutsu of itachi were named after 2 gods and a goddess.

7. taijutsu. base jiraiya equals itachi in this one, but HM jiraiya far outclasses the uchiha. itachi cant afford to exchange bows with someone of tsunades strength and his(itachi) speed, after all, HM jiraiya and itachi are like equals when it comes to speed. but susano-o makes a taijutsu fight deadly to jiraiya.

8. speed, see above.

9. stamina. jiraiya has lots of it, i gotta say.

10. intellect. itachi was a nerd, like sakura and minato, but unlike most nerds, he can fight. and jiraiya was a moron. so itachi started to learn at a very young age. proof of itachis nerdiness? he found out that madara was living, something that the nerdy sarutobi failed to know, and something that the nerdy minato suspects. itachi was the suma cum laude, an academic achiever that also excelled in the ninja arts. thats like a perfect package. you rarely see a suma cum laude and a blackbelter trapped in one body.

11. heart. itachi has heart, he gave up his own interest in favor of others interest, he has a big heart. and jiraiya his just plain lusty. as a catholic, we consider lust a really really big sin.

12. itachi looks better than jiraiya, nuff said.

13. jiraiya has a freakin mole,and i hate moles, because i too have moles, and i hate it.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 9, 2010)

^^^  lol@ 12. and 13.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jun 9, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> 11. heart. itachi has heart, he gave up his own interest in favor of others interest, he has a big heart. and jiraiya his just plain lusty. as a catholic, we consider lust a really really big sin.


And how do you catholics feel about genocide,or torture?Bit of an issue there,is it?


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## Jinnobi (Jun 9, 2010)

MrBlonde said:


> And how do you catholics feel about genocide,or torture?Bit of an issue there,is it?



Love can be found in any action - you're looking at what Itachi did and disregarding WHY he did it.


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## Vergil642 (Jun 9, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Love can be found in any action - you're looking at what Itachi did and disregarding WHY he did it.



Murdering your family is still evil though.

On topic: this thread still going? Thought we settled that Itachi takes HM Jiraiya? From what I can tell there's no new developments concerning how Jiraiya can do anything against any MS jutsu so aren't we just repeating the same old arguments?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 9, 2010)

I hardly have the time or inclination to respond to eight full posts, but no, it's hardly been settled and no explanation has been really given to how Itachi can respond to osme of Jiraiya's one hit kills, actually.
They can take one another, plain and simple. It's a matter of who lands what first


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## Aoshi (Jun 9, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Jiraiya has no answer to Amaretsu, no counter to Tsukiyomi, no way to avoid finger jutsu besides not looking which is lethal, and absolutely no answer to Susano'o besides dying.
> 
> Itachi takes this with little difficulty: 10/10



_This is incorrect. HM Jiraiya has a counter to Tsukuyomi through the use of Ni Dai Sennin. They can sense other people's chakra's, such as when Fukasaku was able to tell Naruto how much chakra he had. When they realize that Itachi's chakra is disrupting Jiraiya's chakra, they will know a Genjutsu is occurring and will immediately disrupt Jiraiya chakra. 

Also, Jiraiya stated that to break a Genjutsu, one must send stronger chakra through the victim's body. I believe that Natural chakra would suffice. 

The Finger Genjutsu can be beaten by the same way that Tsukuyomi gets broken.

Show me speed feats of Susano that compare to HM Jiraiya's._


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 9, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _This is incorrect. HM Jiraiya has a counter to Tsukuyomi through the use of Ni Dai Sennin. They can sense other people's chakra's, such as when Fukasaku was able to tell Naruto how much chakra he had. When they realize that Itachi's chakra is disrupting Jiraiya's chakra,_


_

then it would be too late (I stopped reading there.)

What part of this don't you get man: LESS THAN A DAMN SECOND IN THE REAL LIFE IS MORE THAN 72H IN TSUKUYOMI WORLD WHERE ITACHI RULES TIME AND SPACE.

With that being said, the frogs wouldnt have the fucking time to help Jiraiya out of there. Itachi have over 72 hours to kill Jiraiya (HAHA) and the frogs have less than one second to take Jiraiya out of Itachi's genjutsu._


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## Aoshi (Jun 9, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> then it would be too late (I stopped reading there.)
> 
> What part of this don't you get man: LESS THAN A DAMN SECOND IN THE REAL LIFE IS MORE THAN 72H IN TSUKUYOMI WORLD WHERE ITACHI RULES TIME AND SPACE.
> 
> With that being said, the frogs wouldnt have the fucking time to help Jiraiya out of there. Itachi have over 72 hours to kill Jiraiya (HAHA) and the frogs have less than one second to take Jiraiya out of Itachi's genjutsu.



_In the Naruto world, we have seen how much time it takes for characters to react. In short, it takes a very little amount of time to move 100 meters, as shown with SM Naruto when he destroyed Asura Path. Now think about it; if a character can move 100 meters in a very few moments, how long will it take for him to react? Definitely less than it takes for them to move. Fukasaku just needs to react to Jiraiya's chakra disruption, and then it takes a split-second for him to disrupt Jiraiya's chakra. _


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 9, 2010)

What makes you think it wouldn't take a split second for Itachi to kill a chained Jiraiya? seriously, stop this.

Fine, let's assume one of the frogs breaks Jiraiya out of there (it took them 0,5 seconds) so:

72/2 = 36 hours. Itachi has 36 hours on him to fuck Jiraiya.

damn..


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## Aoshi (Jun 9, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> What makes you think it wouldn't take a split second for Itachi to kill a chained Jiraiya? seriously, stop this.
> 
> Fine, let's assume one of the frogs breaks Jiraiya out of there (it took them 0,5 seconds) so:
> 
> ...



_As shown with Kakashi, he was still able to stand, even though it was only for a short time. HM Jiraiya is far more resilient that Kakashi. Also, you still have not responded to my other solution as to how HM Jiraiya would counter Tsukuyomi._


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## Lightysnake (Jun 9, 2010)

Shiorin said:


> Jiraiya has no answer to any of the MS powers.
> 
> Itachi cannot use Kyo Tenchi-ten when paralyzed by Gamarinshou to escape the illusion, but he would never let the stupid toads pull it off.
> 
> Itachi should win this with moderate difficulty, 8/10.



I love the logic of Itachi fans. Jiraiya is faster, stronger and has just as many OHKO jutsu Itachi has no answer for but MS RUELZ


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 9, 2010)

The deal breaker is Susano'o - and a healthy Itachi would be able to beat Jiraiya simply based on how Susano'o works. Tsukiyomi probably wouldn't work and Amaterasu spans with only a distance of 5 meters (tops). Either of these techniques can be avoided. Without MS, Itachi gets raped and without Susano'o he just gets beat.


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## hmph (Jun 10, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> The deal breaker is Susano'o - and a healthy Itachi would be able to beat Jiraiya simply based on how Susano'o works. Tsukiyomi probably wouldn't work and Amaterasu spans with only a distance of 5 meters (tops). Either of these techniques can be avoided. Without MS, Itachi gets raped and without Susano'o he just gets beat.



The thing about Susano'o and facing Jiraiya though is Jiraiya's ridiculous stamina. Jiraiya's stamina is such that he can pull his most powerful jutsus first thing and continue to use them, like Chou Oodama Rasengan, unlike shinobi like Itachi who are often far more conservative. While people don't acknowledge this often, this conservative nature when not knowing what their enemy can do is because they may be facing a Kakashi or Deidara and run into a clone with their trump. *They don't know.* People want them to pull their trumps early when facing a character like Jiraiya because Jiraiya doesn't do bait and switch as much and instead heads in with power jutsu like boss summons or even Wild Lion's Mane, combined with misdirections and barriers for tactical advantages. And he can use powerful jutsu early and regularly because of his massive chakra pool.

The second issue for Susano'o is that, while mini Susano'o was near instant, full Susano'o isn't. And mini-Susano'o was pushed to its limit by every kage it fought, it can't tank Jman's strongest attacks.


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## PainHyuuga (Jun 10, 2010)

Long thread. to cut things short
Jiraiya is Oro level which is enough to say that he will be defeated by Itachi.
The Manga implies this, argue all you want but its been written, unfortunately
Kishi cannot please everyone.. he just teases.


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## Sanbi (Jun 10, 2010)

A>B>C logic doesn't work. People have different styles which match up with different people. Plus HM Jiraiya is more in the same league as Edo Tensei Orochimaru, and not Base Orochimaru.


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## PainHyuuga (Jun 10, 2010)

A>B>C works here because fans will always be fans in this debate.
Base Oro raped by base itachi therefore base jiraiya share the same fate.


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## Sanbi (Jun 10, 2010)

I wonder why I even bother debating this with you.....

Orochimaru has a completely different style from Jiraiya, comparing the two when facing Itachi, is like comparing apples and oranges. Oro is arrogant, Jiraiya is observant and careful. Oro's style revolves around tanking attacks, which is terrible against Itachi. Jiraiya's revolves around constricting the opponent to deal lethal blows, using ranged attacks and summoning support and dodging attacks. He likes to use ranged combat and ambushes, revolving around strategies and using the environment to his advantage. Oro likes to play around, get hit by attacks and use CQC with his sword.

This isn't Base Jiraiya either, do you read the threads you post in?


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## Panos (Jun 10, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _As shown with Kakashi, he was still able to stand, even though it was only for a short time. HM Jiraiya is far more resilient that Kakashi. Also, you still have not responded to my other solution as to how HM Jiraiya would counter Tsukuyomi._



Kakashi was able to stand because Itachi did not want to kill him.
We have no proof whatsoever that Jiraiya has mentally stronger than Kakashi.
If jiraiya is hit with Tsukuyomi and we have a serious Itachi then Jiraiya is going to end either with one hand or dead.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

> If jiraiya is hit with Tsukuyomi and we have a serious Itachi then Jiraiya is going to end either with *one hand* or dead.



What's stopping "one hand" from being "no head?"


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## efmp1987 (Jun 10, 2010)

tsukuyomi affects the brain, and the brain controls all bodily functions. if its fatigued from severe mental torture as a result of getting tsukuyomied, the brain cells AKA neurons will become hypoglycemic as a result of overactivity in its attempt to maintain homeostasis which is being disrupted by the physiological effects & burden that tsukuyomi causes. hypoglycemia by itself can prove deadly. but what comes next is lethal with a rate of 100% fatality rate - hypoxemia. Jiraiya can't get treated in time because itachi just wont allow it, so he's dead the moment he's blasted by a full force moon reader or tsukuyomi.


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## Pink Matter (Jun 10, 2010)

Itachi's the master of short and quick fights but Jiraiya's a good strategist (Pain fight). If Itachi was healthy and wanted to kill Jiraiya, I'm sure he could but it would be close. If jiraya had the ma and pa toads, he might be able to break Itachi's genjutsus but he's not fast enough to dodge Amaterasu.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 10, 2010)

WHY in the hell is this still going on? Can't we just wait two months and restart this discussion. By then, edo tensei Itachi or Sasuke would have used Itachi's powers again thereby showing us the limitations of tsukuyomi and Itachi's susano'o. We already know that amaterasu can be blocked as both Gaara and the hachibi demonstrated.


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## Makabi (Jun 10, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> WHY in the hell is this still going on? Can't we just wait two months and restart this discussion. By then, edo tensei Itachi or Sasuke would have used Itachi's powers again thereby showing us the limitations of tsukuyomi and Itachi's susano'o. We already know that amaterasu can be blocked as both Gaara and the hachibi demonstrated.


Has Jiriyia demonstrated it?


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## Senjuclan (Jun 10, 2010)

Makabi said:


> Has Jiriyia demonstrated it?



He has demonstrated that he is faster than those two and I can think of a couple of ways he can counter amaterasu. Sasuke just outran it. Amaterasu is seriously overrated


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## Makabi (Jun 10, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> He has demonstrated that he is faster than those two and I can think of a couple of ways he can counter amaterasu. Sasuke just outran it. Amaterasu is seriously overrated


Sasuke ran from Itachi's eye sight. Plus I doubt he was trying to fully set him on fire. Sasuke used Ammy to counter Gaara's sand rather than run from it. Also he doesn't have counter to Tsuky once Tsuky is on Jiryia he Ammy's him and the frogs this will cause them to disconnect and they eventually burn to death.


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## Kanki (Jun 10, 2010)

Not gonna use this in an arguement as it's just a theory, but Jiraiya's super rasengan might be able to break through Itachi's Susano'o.


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## Makabi (Jun 10, 2010)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Not gonna use this in an arguement as it's just a theory, but Jiraiya's super rasengan might be able to break through Itachi's Susano'o.


Susanoo blocked a Kirin in it's weakened state. Do you think Rasengan is going to do anything?


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## Aoshi (Jun 10, 2010)

Peaceful said:


> Kakashi was able to stand because Itachi did not want to kill him.
> We have no proof whatsoever that Jiraiya has mentally stronger than Kakashi.
> If jiraiya is hit with Tsukuyomi and we have a serious Itachi then Jiraiya is going to end either with one hand or dead.



_I am just going to drop this point because I do not feel the need to argue it if you guys have not responded to my other solution as to how Jiraiya would get out of Tsukuyomi. _


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 10, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> 4. Tsukuyomi can be broken since Madara has it and Hashirama beat him



Um.. scan please. I don't mind commenting your other points because they fails as much as your life :s

A question though.

ARE
YOU
KISHI
?


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## Vergil642 (Jun 10, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> He has demonstrated that he is faster than those two and I can think of a couple of ways he can counter amaterasu. Sasuke just outran it. Amaterasu is seriously overrated



Sasuke didn't just outrun it, Itachi purposefully avoided frying him in one shot for two reasons. First, we know that he was pretending to be evil and Zetsu pointed out he wanted to save Sasuke's eyes. Second, we know Itachi wouldn't want to kill Sasuke, so giving him as much time as possible for him to think of an escape to Amaterasu is the logical thing to do.

Bee hid behind a tentacle after seeing Sasuke's eye bleeding. Then the Hachibi's body proceeded to get burnt to a crisp by the afterflames.

Jiraiya's not fast enough to escape Itachi's sight and unless full knowledge was given he doesn't know how Amaterasu is initiated. If he looks at Itachi's eyes he's going to get Tsukuyomi'd, so even if he does know how Amaterasu is initiated and does know to hide from LoS when he sees blood tears he's going to be extremely vulnerable to being oneshotted by Tsukuyomi.

Although I agree we should wait for Edo Tensei Itachi and to a lesser extent Sasuke to show more feats (it'd make it even easier for Itachi supporters to dominate this thread), I'm curious about these other Amaterasu counters you have.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 10, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:
			
		

> I am just going to drop this point because I do not feel the need to argue it if you guys have not responded to my other solution as to how Jiraiya would get out of Tsukuyomi.



Because:



ItachiTheGreat said:


> What makes you think it wouldn't take a split second for Itachi to kill a chained Jiraiya? seriously, stop this.
> 
> Fine, let's assume one of the frogs breaks Jiraiya out of there (it took them 0,5 seconds) so:
> 
> ...



Because Jiraiya would be dead by then, as I said earlier, let's ASSUME that the frogs manged to take Jiraiya out of there in 0.5 seconds... 0.5 seconds in Tsukuyomi world is over 36 hours, so Itachi has 36 hours to kill Jiraiya. LMFAO.



Senjuclan said:


> WHY in the hell is this still going on? Can't we just wait two months and restart this discussion. By then, edo tensei Itachi or Sasuke would have used Itachi's powers again thereby showing us the limitations of tsukuyomi and Itachi's susano'o. We already know that amaterasu can be blocked as both Gaara and the hachibi demonstrated.



Why do you fail? /facepalm

The only reason Hichabi escaped Amaterasu was because of Karin. Sasuke had to cut a limb off Hichabi to save Karin and Bee took an advantage of that. If that useless Karin wasn't in the way, Hichabi/Bee would be captured by now.

All of Itachi's jutsus would end Jiraiya (ms jutsus)


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## Senjuclan (Jun 10, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Um.. scan please. I don't mind commenting your other points because they fails as much as your life :s
> 
> A question though.
> 
> ...



1. Listen, you either have the balls to argue against my points or you STFU and find someone to reinforce your convictions 
2. Asking me if I am Kishi shows that you have insecurities about yourself. I would advise dealing with that. 
3. I am not providing scans. Go find them yourself. Madara told the kage summit that he wants to use the jyuubi to cast mugen tsukuyomi. That means he must have tsukuyomi to start with. The databook says that anyone who looked into his eyes without care was pierced by his sharingan, that means he was a keen user of genjutsu. He fought Hashirama multiple times, that means he should have used genjutsu at least once. He went blind because he abused MS, that means he must have used his MS genjutsu


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

Jiraiya can move so fast the ground beneath him practically explodes. Itachi's vision can't keep up with that unless he's physically whirling around before he's hit. 

And I think we're forgetting Jiraiya has as many oneshots, if not more. In Sage Mode, nothing short of an MS Jutsu will do anything to Jiraiya.


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## Sanbi (Jun 10, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Sasuke didn't just outrun it, Itachi purposefully avoided frying him in one shot for two reasons. First, we know that he was pretending to be evil and Zetsu pointed out he wanted to save Sasuke's eyes. Second, we know Itachi wouldn't want to kill Sasuke, so giving him as much time as possible for him to think of an escape to Amaterasu is the logical thing to do.
> 
> Bee hid behind a tentacle after seeing Sasuke's eye bleeding. Then the Hachibi's body proceeded to get burnt to a crisp by the afterflames.
> 
> ...


Vergil, Itachi didn't hold back since he knew Sasuke had counters to all his jutsu. You have no proof he held back on hitting him with Amaterasu, when he did so anyway, if he truly was holding back he wouldn't have hit Sasuke in the first place. He was trying his hardest to force Sasuke to give in to Orochimaru, and he didn't hold back.

The point is we saw Itachi try and follow Sasuke with his eyesight, he ran around half of the dome before hit deadweight and wings protruding from his body forced him to get caught. Jiraiya has way better feats of speed, and doesn't have that wing protruding form his body.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 10, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Listen, you either have the balls to argue against my points or you STFU and find someone to reinforce your convictions






> 2. Asking me if I am Kishi shows that you have insecurities about yourself. I would advise dealing with that.






> 3. I am not providing scans. Go find them yourself. Madara told the kage summit that he wants to use the jyuubi to cast mugen tsukuyomi. That means he must have tsukuyomi to start with. The databook says that anyone who looked into his eyes without care was pierced by his sharingan, that means he was a keen user of genjutsu. He fought Hashirama multiple times, that means he should have used genjutsu at least once. He went blind because he abused MS, that means he must have used his MS genjutsu



Does that have to be Tsukuyomi? ._. perhaps he had a very powerful sharingan genjutsu?


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## Senjuclan (Jun 10, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


>



I guess this means you really had no argument to start with. I am not surprised in the least bit. When you have an argument, let me know. I will be happy to destroy it. 



ItachiTheGreat said:


> Does that have to be Tsukuyomi? ._. perhaps he had a very powerful sharingan genjutsu?



He said he has tsukuyomi. That settles that. Do you have anything else cuz so far your answers are very weak


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## Thunder (Jun 10, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Does that have to be Tsukuyomi? ._. perhaps he had a very powerful sharingan genjutsu?



I'm sure Madara just didn't bother to use _Tsukuyomi_ in his fight with Hashirama. Absolutely no point, right?


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## Marsala (Jun 10, 2010)

With no knowledge, Jiraiya would definitely get hit by Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu, and Itachi could protect himself from a sudden attack with Susano'o. Itachi would win for sure.


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## Kisame (Jun 10, 2010)

too close
either itachi oneshots with tsukiyomi on jiraiya and the frogs,or use susanoo,or jiraiya stomps with yomi numa and his SM arsenal

meh...its a draw

however if jiraiya starts in base (which is fair) he would lose without knowledge


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 10, 2010)

I don't recall Madara saying he has Tsukuyomi, what the fuck? Why the fuck do you think he wants Sasuke so much anyway? To help him with his Mugen Tsukuyomi plan, and guess who has Tsukuyomi >.<

lmao, what the fuck is there to comment on

"1. Listen, you either have the balls to argue against my points or you STFU and find someone to reinforce your convictions"

"2. Asking me if I am Kishi shows that you have insecurities about yourself. I would advise dealing with that. "

other than blablah?

Oh, I said Itachi wins without knowing Jiraiya not having knowledge on Itachi

So, Jiraiya WOULD look at Itachi's eyes and he would die. fuck :Ssss


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

Marsala said:


> With no knowledge, Jiraiya would definitely get hit by Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu, and Itachi could protect himself from a sudden attack with Susano'o. Itachi would win for sure.



Right, because Jiraiya doesn't know about them when ICly he does. And because Jiraiya doesn't know the first thing about Uchiha and Dojutsu.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 10, 2010)

OP says no knowledge. No knowledge means he doesn't have any knowledge at all, dude it's not hard once you actually use your brain.

Since he doesn't have any knowledge, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi WOULD finish this. Itachi wins comfortably.


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## MSAL (Jun 10, 2010)

In regards to the Mugen Tsukiyomi plan, i dont think it proves Madara possessed Tsukiyomi.

Madara seems to have been purposefully leading Sasuke into fights against strong opponents, in order for Sasuke to lose his eyesight. Why? Because it would mean Sasuke would have to gain EMS, or go blind. Now Sasuke has EMS, whos eyes has he got? Yes, Itachi's eyes. Therefore Sasuke now has insane stamina and durability combined possibly with Tsukiyomi, although i dont know whether he could use it to the potential Itachi did, even with Itachi's eyes.

So it seems that Sasuke may be key to Mugen Tsukiyomi. IMO, of course. Just thought i would point those things out .


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## Thunder (Jun 10, 2010)

That does make sense, but I don't think Sasuke is the key to Eternal Tsukuyomi. 



Here Madara told Zetsu he needs to fuse Sasuke to Gedo Mazo now that Pain is dead. Pain, of course can't use Tsukuyomi, so I doubt that has to do with Eternal Tsukuyomi. Regardless, Madara has EMS anyway, so he doesn't needs Sasuke's eyes. What he needs is to get his power back, which he plans to do by becoming the Juubi Jinchurriki.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 10, 2010)

hmph said:


> The thing about Susano'o and facing Jiraiya though is Jiraiya's ridiculous stamina. Jiraiya's stamina is such that he can pull his most powerful jutsus first thing and continue to use them, like Chou Oodama Rasengan, unlike shinobi like Itachi who are often far more conservative. While people don't acknowledge this often, this conservative nature when not knowing what their enemy can do is because they may be facing a Kakashi or Deidara and run into a clone with their trump. *They don't know.* People want them to pull their trumps early when facing a character like Jiraiya because Jiraiya doesn't do bait and switch as much and instead heads in with power jutsu like boss summons or even Wild Lion's Mane, combined with misdirections and barriers for tactical advantages. And he can use powerful jutsu early and regularly because of his massive chakra pool.
> 
> The second issue for Susano'o is that, while mini Susano'o was near instant, full Susano'o isn't. And mini-Susano'o was pushed to its limit by every kage it fought, it can't tank Jman's strongest attacks.


Well, the reason why I stated the first two techniques were a non-factor were because Jiraiya has gathered some _*knowledge*_ about them, unlike Susano'o, where he doesn't even possess remote knowledge about. If he had seen the technique then a counter strategy maybe plausible. However, the chances of that happening are slim. And at present he has no knowledge whatsoever of this technique and he would be at a great disadvantage, especially considering his fighting techniques and style.

We saw Raikage completely bust through a semi complete Susano'o and the odds are a sage infused Jiraiya could do the same - but when the complete thing comes out it's pretty much a wrap for Jiraiya. There is nothing in his arsenal that is remotely close to creating the power generated by Sasuke's Kirin which was deflected effortlessly by that shield. He can try to slow it down by using Yomi Numa but that's about it, other than that fighting Susano'o would be pointless for Jiraiya. 

Someone like Deidara or Gaara would be better suited to fight Susano'o. Jiraiya is a close to mid-range fighter and Susano'o clearly negates any type of long-range jutsu that Jiraiya has. It's a bit of a stretch especially if Jiraiya has to face Amaterasu beforehand. He surely has the stamina to outlast Itachi and attain victory in the same manner that Sasuke did (Itachi dying because he ran out of stamina).


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 10, 2010)

its official... jiriaya is the superman of the narutoverse....


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## Thunder (Jun 10, 2010)

I wouldn't go that far...


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 10, 2010)

but you guys are..... seriously, with no knowledge jiriaya is getting genjustu raped like everyone else itachi fought. there isnt anything to debate at all.  Jiriaya has no feats at all to counter genjustu. he has avg. stats in the databook on genjustu. but all of sudden with no knowledge he is suppose have some imaginary counters.


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## Thunder (Jun 10, 2010)

Hey, don't bring me into this. I never said who would win anyways


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 10, 2010)

lol, well who do you think would win with no knowledge???? and give me reasons


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 10, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> but you guys are..... seriously, with no knowledge jiriaya is getting genjustu raped like everyone else itachi fought. there isnt anything to debate at all.  Jiriaya has no feats at all to counter genjustu. he has avg. stats in the databook on genjustu. but all of sudden with no knowledge he is suppose have some imaginary counters.


If Jiraiya is in SM, I don't think it matters if knowledge is any importance at least in regards to Genjustu. We haven't really seen how well genjutsu would perform against sage chakra, so assuming it would/is a bit different because as the caster you don't know what to modify if the chakra is completely different. On Itachi's genjutsu part, it's like modifying the contents of a mixture, he assumes is true for the average shinobi, however in Jiraiya's case, it would not work because he is not the average shinobi (i.e. he utilizes natural energy and forms sage chakra).


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

Please, even with no knowledge, Itachi doesn't use his techniques willy-nilly.

A Hermit mode Jiraiya will be too resistant to Genjutsu. He's already knoweldgable about breaking it, too. Genjutsu GG is a blatant fabrication


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## Thunder (Jun 10, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> lol, well who do you think would win with no knowledge???? and give me reasons



No clue. It could go both ways. We don't know how Senjutsu interacts with Genjutsu, so i won't get into this until then.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 10, 2010)

ok, but this fights starts off with jiriaya in base form, because thats IC. and IC itachi will use genjust early. so who would win???


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

This is HM Jiraiya, meaning he should start that way


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 10, 2010)

step aside lightysnake, im talking to someone else... OP states IC, and when has jiriaya started any fight in HM?


P.S. why do you need jiriaya to start off in HM anyways??? unless you think he cant reach that form in a legit fight???


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## Cole (Jun 10, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> step aside lightysnake, OP states IC, and when has jiriaya started any fight in HM?



This specific fight has him starting in HM.

I think you don't know what IC means; it's In Character, not In Base.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 10, 2010)

@RA, does Jiriaya start in HM or Base if your still around????


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## Thunder (Jun 10, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> step aside lightysnake, im talking to someone else... OP states IC, and when has jiriaya started any fight in HM?
> 
> 
> P.S. why do you need jiriaya to start off in HM anyways??? unless you think he cant reach that form in a legit fight???



There is really no point in derailing this debate by talking about how Base Jiraiya would do against Itachi.

All I will say is this: Itachi himself said a fight with Base Jiraiya would end in a draw at best, or his defeat.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 10, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> step aside lightysnake, im talking to someone else... OP states IC, and when has jiriaya started any fight in HM?
> 
> 
> P.S. why do you need jiriaya to start off in HM anyways??? unless you think he cant reach that form in a legit fight???


That's how the match-up was stated, however, if Jiraiya could reach HM fighting Pain's annoying summons, he could do it against Itachi. He'd probably just have to summon a frog and take cover.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

> All I will say is this: Itachi himself said a fight with Base Jiraiya would end in a draw at best, or his defeat.



Once again: completely ignoring both statement context and common sense.


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## Thunder (Jun 10, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Once again: completely ignoring both statement context and common sense.



Who are you? . Once again: I'm not going to derail this thread by debating about what characters said. 

I said I won't get into this until we know more. Please learn to read.


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2010)

I don't see Susano'o as a problem for Jiraiya at all; Until we See Susano'o Sword Seal Objects and not Just Minds/People Jiraiya has a-lot of ways to counter it or at least delay it until it kills Itachi.

Under the premise that the Sword can't seal Objects; Since we have never seen it do so it can be blocked like any other sword. Jiraiya first Response to the war god would probably be to summon out Bunta, Ken, and/or Hiro. They should be able to block the Sword with their Weapons and Protect Jiraiya, but even if Susano'o is too fast for them to block the Sword then Jiraiya will at least Gather Knowledge on it about the Shield/Sword's properties.

From there i really don't see Susano'o being fast enough to even hit a HM Jiraiya who can use Shunshin and i also don't see how Susano'o counters Yomi Numa. I also think Gamma Yuedan would possibly kill some one using Susano'o from the sheer heat given off from the Jutsu(Not the Fire itself).

Pretty Much HM Jiraiya should be able to handle Susano'o; Not easily, but w/o that much risk of being killed ether.

The Main Dangers for Jiraiya are Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Both these Jutsu take a-lot of Speculation as to how Jiraiya would Fair against them; Does Ma/Pa Fusion make Jiraiya immune to Genjuts, Can Jiriaya Block LOS or Use Clones to prevent being captured in Genjutsu or hit by Amaterasu, etc...

Its too unclear how Jiraiya would attempt to counter these Jutsu or fight some one like Itachi in general to figure out if Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi would be successful or not. 

However at the same time Yomi Numa, Deep Fryer, Needle Barrage, Fusaku/Shima's Tongue and Toad Guard Barrier Seal are all very dangerous Techniques for Itachi to handle.

Overall when it comes down to it if Jiraiya gets to start in HM he is going to win more battles then he is going to loose. If Jiraiya started in Base it would be 50/50; Here i give it 60/40 in favor of Jiraiya


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Once again: completely ignoring both statement context and common sense.



"Itachi tells the truth except when it is not conducive to my argument."

Keep it coming, man.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> "Itachi tells the truth except when it is not conducive to my argument."
> 
> Keep it coming, man.



This has nothing to do with telling the truth: in fact, he had every reason to lie.

Once again: completely ignoring both statement context and common sense.



> Under the premise that the Sword can't seal Objects; Since we have never seen it do so it can be blocked like any other sword. Jiraiya first Response to the war god would probably be to summon out Bunta, Ken, and/or Hiro.



As he's summoning he's hit with Amaretsu.



> From there i really don't see Susano'o being fast enough to even hit a HM Jiraiya who can use Shunshin



You vastly underestimate Susano'o's speed.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

Every reaosn to lie about his own power to the one in Akatsuki most knowledgable about his power and MS?

There's also a delay between Itachi preparing to use Amaterasu and using it. Jiraiya summons quicker. And HM Jiraiya is very, very fast.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

> Every reaosn to lie about his own power to the one in Akatsuki most knowledgable about his power and MS?



This doesn't make a difference because (1) Kisame probably didn't know about Susano'o and (2) doesn't know anything about Jiraiya except his reputation. 



> There's also a delay between Itachi preparing to use Amaterasu and using it. Jiraiya summons quicker.



Are they? How can you make that claim?



> And HM Jiraiya is very, very fast.



As fast as R2 Raikage?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

Kisame lacked knowledge on Itachi as his partner? Prove up.  And only knows the 'reputation; of one of the most famous men in the ninja world?

Sasuke was able to interrupt the Amaterasu preparation initially. We've seen Jiraiya summon quicker as when he blocked Kisame's swing on Naruto.

And evidence you need to jsut be the Raikage to dodge Susanoo?


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

> Kisame lacked knowledge on Itachi as his partner? Prove up.



Kisame knew every secret technique of Itachi solely because they were partners? Prove up. It's like saying Sasori knew of C4 because Deidara was his partner - or maybe Deidara knows that Tobi is Madara because of this?



> And only knows the 'reputation; of one of the most famous men in the ninja world?



What else does he know besides hype? Does Jiraiya let his best techniques be known by everyone? Get real man. It's clear that Kisame didn't know about Jiraiya because he wasn't anticipating any of Jiraiya's frog techniques. Also: if Kisame knew of Susano'o, he wouldn't be afraid of Itachi vs Base Jiraiya.



> and evidence you need to jsut be the Raikage to dodge Susanoo?



Susano'o impaled Orochimaru





> in plain sight from meters away before Orochimaru could mentally process that he was hit.


 This is a genius and a Sannin. Forget about dodging Susano'o.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Kisame knew every secret technique of Itachi solely because they were partners? Prove up. It's like saying Sasori knew of C4 because Deidara was his partner - or maybe Deidara knows that Tobi is Madara because of this?


One thing explicitly hidden vs. a move one's partner might certainly know? Tobi knew of C4 before Deidara used it, I sincerely doubt his partner for ten years didn't.
Kisame knows of the MS, at least two of its techniques, how dangerous it is to Itachi. That is basis that he has a large knowledge base upon it




> What else does he know besides hype? Does Jiraiya let his best techniques be known by everyone? Get real man. It's clear that Kisame didn't know about Jiraiya because he wasn't anticipating any of Jiraiya's frog techniques. Also: if Kisame knew of Susano'o, he wouldn't be afraid of Itachi vs Base Jiraiya.


He didn't anticipate the Iwagama. He clearly knew Jiraiya uses frogs given he wasn't at all surprised by one blocking him at first.
Jiraiya and the Sannin are some of the most famous people alive. They've been active in Kisame's lifetime. Kisame and Akatsuki are rather knowledgable on their enemies. Jiraiya isn't some mystical figure nobody ever sees, he's a Konoha hero well known for his heroic exploits




> Susano'o impaled Orochimaru This is a genius and a Sannin. Forget about dodging Susano'o.


Orochimaru was stuck down a snake's throat and didn't think the sword was a threat. 

HM Jiraiya is faster.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Tobi knew of C4 before Deidara used it



scan please?



> Kisame knows of the MS, at least two of its techniques, how dangerous it is to Itachi. That is basis that he has a large knowledge base upon it.



That does not mean he knows of Susano'o. 






> Jiraiya and the Sannin are some of the most famous people alive. They've been active in Kisame's lifetime. Kisame and Akatsuki are rather knowledgable on their enemies. Jiraiya isn't some mystical figure nobody ever sees, he's a Konoha hero well known for his heroic exploits.



Kisame only based his statement on Jiraiya's reputation





> Orochimaru was stuck down a snake's throat and didn't think the sword was a threat.
> 
> HM Jiraiya is faster.



You still don't get my point. Whether or not Orochimaru thought Totsuka was a threat is irrelevant. Whether or not he was immobilized or slowed is irrelevant. We're not talking about Orochimaru's ability to dodge - we're trying to find a speed feat for Totsuka. 

Here it is: Susano'o struck Orochimaru so quickly that _he couldn't even process it mentally _before it was already through him. Forget physically dodging it; he didn't even realized the damn thing moved before you're impaled with a giant sword. This overwhelming speed feat shuts down the possibility of Jiraiya dodging Totsuka, unless you're prepared to argue that he's going to think faster than Orochimaru.


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## Sanbi (Jun 10, 2010)

_This would be a close battle, but I give HM Jiraiya the edge. However, in Base, Jiraiya would be at a disadvantage and likely lose. With HM all his disadvantages are no longer there. He is not 1v1 against a Sharingan user, and has two partners to break his out of genjutsu and wtahc his back. With the physical Sage enhancements, Jiraiya should easily win a battle of taijutsu with greater speed, strength, about equal taijutsu skill, and two Kawazu Kumite users on his shoulders. This includes better CQC oriented ninjutsu. Jiraiya has the edge of much more useful ninjutsu, as well as more dangerous and large ninjutsu. Itachi obviously has the edge in genjutsu, but with two partners, it shouldn't be a problem IMO. Jiraiya has the edge of Stamina with HM, and intelligence with Shima and Fukasaku and better battle strategies. In HM, it grants him greater advantages and takes away his disadvantages so, with HM, Jiraiya should win this IMO, but not easily, as him and Itachi are very close in power._


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## IzanagiRikudo (Jun 10, 2010)

Itachi wins with very high difficulty. Frog Song is Jiraiya's only chance in this fight, but it needs time to execute, and if Itachi realizes what's going on, he would take Jiraiya out with Susano'o before it happens. Yomi Numa can be absorbed by Totsuka Blade as well. I don't think Tsukuyomi works on Jiraiya, because the Natural Energy can probably agitate his chakra and allow escape, but I'm not sure that'll work... so Itachi can 1HKO Jiraiya with it; Itachi's Tsukuyomi works in 1 second in the real world, so Ma and Pa wouldn't have enough time to agitate Jiraiya's chakra once he is caught in Tsukuyomi. Amaterasu is also very dangerous in this fight, but Jiraiya would probably somehow escape it. Unless Jiraiya somehow takes Itachi out before Itachi uses MS, then Itachi wins this.


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## IzanagiRikudo (Jun 10, 2010)

if he gets caught in Tsukuyomi, he can't escape for the reasons i've already stated in my post.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 10, 2010)

Only Frog Song? Not Kanbari Senbon, Senpo Goemon, Food Cart Crusher, Yomi Numa, Chou Oddama Rasengan, just a punch in the face?



Jinnobi said:


> scan please?







> That does not mean he knows of Susano'o.


Start showing evidence. He knows of everything else.






> Kisame only based his statement on Jiraiya's reputation


Prove it. He wouldn't be scared of Orochimaru. He's NOT scared of Orochimaru. He was helping hunt for him.






> You still don't get my point. Whether or not Orochimaru thought Totsuka was a threat is irrelevant. Whether or not he was immobilized or slowed is irrelevant. We're not talking about Orochimaru's ability to dodge - we're trying to find a speed feat for Totsuka.


And this isn't one. Orochimaru was not paying attention and considered it no threat. If he was ready and waiting, it might be different



> Here it is: Susano'o struck Orochimaru so quickly that _he couldn't even process it mentally _before it was already through him. Forget physically dodging it; he didn't even realized the damn thing moved before you're impaled with a giant sword. This overwhelming speed feat shuts down the possibility of Jiraiya dodging Totsuka, unless you're prepared to argue that he's going to think faster than Orochimaru.


He sure realized it. He was only surprised. 
HM Jiraiya is on a different level in speed


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

Good find.





> Start showing evidence. He knows of everything else.



You made the assertion. Burden of proof is on you, because all Kisame's statement addressed was the Sannin title. 







> Prove it. He wouldn't be scared of Orochimaru. He's NOT scared of Orochimaru. He was helping hunt for him.



He also walked into the shop that Jiraiya was in.






> And this isn't one. Orochimaru was not paying attention and considered it no threat. If he was ready and waiting, it might be different



Orochimaru was not paying attention? Come now, that's hard to believe. He was looking right at Itachi and Susano'o the whole time.



> He sure realized it. He was only surprised.
> HM Jiraiya is on a different level in speed





Notice the shocked "-you?" 

He wouldn't be surprised if he saw it coming.


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## Smiley (Jun 10, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Notice the shocked "-you?"
> 
> He wouldn't be surprised if he saw it coming.



He said that because he Orochimaru discovered Itachi had the totsuka sword. He simply laughed when he got stabbed by it. I hardly call that a shock.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 10, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> He said that because Orochimaru discovered Itachi had the totsuka sword. He simply laughed when he got stabbed by it. I hardly call that a shock.



He saw the sword waving in his face. He was shocked because he suddenly found it through his chest. He laughed because he didn't realize it was the Totsuka Sword - he stopped laughing when he realized it.


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## Pink Matter (Jun 10, 2010)

Oro didn't even think about dodging the sword and laughed when he was impaled by it because he thought that it was just a regular weapon. It was only when he was beginning to be sealed that he found that it was the Totsuka. I'd say Oro could dodge Susanoo if he was prepared.


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## Smiley (Jun 10, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> He saw the sword waving in his face. He was shocked because he suddenly found it through his chest. He laughed because he didn't realize it was the Totsuka Sword - he stopped laughing when he realized it.



OMG. SHOW ME SCANS OF IT WAVING IN HIS FACE. Once he got impaled, he simply laughed, only to stop laughing becuase it was the Totsuka. He never wanted to dodge it because he thought it would be fodder since physicall damage doensn't affect him.



Sn33ze said:


> Oro didn't even think about dodging the sword and laughed when he was impaled by it because he thought that it was just a regular weapon. It was only when he was beginning to be sealed that he found that it was the Totsuka. I'd say Oro could dodge Susanoo if he was prepared.



^

He knows what he's talking about.


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## Soul (Jun 10, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> There is really no point in derailing this debate by talking about how Base Jiraiya would do against Itachi.
> 
> All I will say is this: *Itachi himself said a fight with Base Jiraiya would end in a draw at best, or his defeat.*



Why do people use this?
If this applies, the the whole "only a Sharingan user can defeat me" Itachi said is also valid.
And we know both arguments are idiotic.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Good find.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He knows of all other MS Jutsu. As well as its effect on Itachi. There's logical basis, is there not?








> He also walked into the shop that Jiraiya was in.


In disguise.
and that also let Samehada feel Jiraiya's chakra. And let Kisame gauge Jiraiya by extension.







> Orochimaru was not paying attention? Come now, that's hard to believe. He was looking right at Itachi and Susano'o the whole time.


While ranting hysterically




> Notice the shocked "-you?"


Surprise that he's been stabbed suddenly?
Note the next "Hehe, not enough" and all?



> He wouldn't be surprised if he saw it coming.


And again, being on guard makes a difference


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2010)

> Why do people use this?
> If this applies, the the whole "only a Sharingan user can defeat me" Itachi said is also valid.
> And we know both arguments are idiotic.


Flash Itachi was referring to Tsukuyomi; He thinks only a MS user with True Uchiha Blood can take it head on and counter it. That does not mean he thinks only a True Blood Uchiha Can beat him.

There are other ways to defeat Itachi w/o being Captured in Tsukuyomi. And beyond that this is merely Itachi's opinion based on what he has seen in the Shinobi world; Whether or not he knew about the abilities of a Jin who can control his Bijuu is speculative.

The reason why people put more stock into Itachi's statement about Jiraiya is because its far from being "Idiotic". Jiraiya is an incredibly powerful Shinobi; Some would say and i believe rightfully so, that he is indeed the Strongest Legendary Sannin. The Legendary Sannin are incredibly Powerful shinobi; so for Itachi to say he is equal to the strongest one of them is not as outlandish as you seem to believe.

Not to mention Itachi's statement makes sense in context with the story-line; Such as the roles both Itachi and Jiraiya played and the fact that they both represented the next step in the Main Characters evolution(With MS and SM Respectively). Which is further reinforced by the fact that Kishimoto has indicated to readers that Sasuke and Naruto after both obtaining these powers and commanding similar powers to Itachi and Jiraiya are indeed equals.

The author seems to indicate that SM and MS are an equal Power up; I also don't think the author has ever really suggested that Itachi w/o MS is a-lot stronger then Jiraiya w/o SM. If we take the authors indications of MS's equality to SM and then we look at the fact that Jiriaya and Itachi w/o these respective power ups are both incredibly skilled Ninja with nether really seeming to be significantly stronger then thee other its no wonder that people believe this statement to have some level of validity to it.

Now whether or not the statement actually is valid is up to each reader to decide as nothing is set in stone, however to say its an "idiotic" statement and thus imply that its equally "idiotic" to believe the statement might have some level of validity is pretty narrow minded and seemingly biased in favor of Itachi.


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## Thunder (Jun 11, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Why do people use this?
> If this applies, the the whole "only a Sharingan user can defeat me" Itachi said is also valid.
> And we know both arguments are idiotic.



I'm not saying we should base the whole argument around one statement. I'm saying the statement should at least be considered like every other statement made. I see nothing "idiotic" about it at all. Saying Itachi is about equal to probably the strongest Sannin isn't exactly an insult.

Its funny how the same people that complain about taking character statements seriously have no trouble believing Naruto's statement that Sasuke and himself are equals.

The attitude is, "I'll believe whatever statements help my argument, and completely disregard all other statements that hurt my argument"


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## Jinnobi (Jun 11, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Surprise that he's been stabbed suddenly?
> Note the next "Hehe, not enough" and all?



Believing it is not enough =/= not being surprised at the speed of the stab.




> And again, being on guard makes a difference



The sword is directly in his line of sight. Whether or not he's being cautious is irrelevant. He's surprised that he's suddenly impaled - this is due to the speed of the blow. It's obvious he didn't give a damn if he was stabbed. What caused him surprise is that he didn't see it coming.

And why not? Sasuke's Susano'o's arrows are so fast that Kakashi needed Kumai to counter and Sasuke's Susano'o wasn't even fully completed. Itachi's was - and is likely faster.



> Its funny how the same people that complain about taking character statements seriously have no trouble believing Naruto's statement that Sasuke and himself are equals.



He never made that statement. He said that when he fought Sasuke, they would both die. Afterwards he said he couldn't defeat Sasuke.

Both dying in a battle =/= equally powerful.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Believing it is not enough =/= not being surprised at the speed of the stab.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


again: He was not on guard and using his time to rant to Itachi.

Do you concede that were he on guard, not stuck in a snake's throat and considering a threat, it'd make a difference?
Like when he fought Naruto.



> And why not? Sasuke's Susano'o's arrows are so fast that Kakashi needed Kumai to counter and Sasuke's Susano'o wasn't even fully completed. Itachi's was - and is likely faster.


Different weapons. A crossbow>A sword for speed any day of the week




> He never made that statement. He said that when he fought Sasuke, they would both die. Afterwards he said he couldn't defeat Sasuke.


Context, context. Draw =/= defeating



> Both dying in a battle =/= equally powerful.


Stalemate ending in death sure results in that


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## Thunder (Jun 11, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> He never made that statement. He said that when he fought Sasuke, they would both die. Afterwards he said he couldn't defeat Sasuke.
> 
> Both dying in a battle =/= equally powerful.



Funny how you preach to me about context, but yet fail to see the context in that statement.

What do you think both of them dieing equates to? One being superior to the other?

Correct. He can't defeat Sasuke. _Because both of them would die_


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2010)

Turrin said:


> I don't see Susano'o as a problem for Jiraiya at all; Until we See Susano'o Sword Seal Objects and not Just Minds/People Jiraiya has a-lot of ways to counter it or at least delay it until it kills Itachi.


If the strongest jutsu we've seen up to date causes no problems for Jiraiya, believe me, nothing else would.

Susano'o is guaranteed win. The only question is, whether Itachi needs it or not.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 11, 2010)

Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> In regards to the Mugen Tsukiyomi plan, i dont think it proves Madara possessed Tsukiyomi.



You need to make your case for why you have reasonable doubt. Otherwise, it is simply fanboyism



Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> Madara seems to have been purposefully leading Sasuke into fights against strong opponents, in order for Sasuke to lose his eyesight. Why? Because it would mean Sasuke would have to gain EMS, or go blind. Now Sasuke has EMS, whos eyes has he got? Yes, Itachi's eyes. Therefore Sasuke now has insane stamina and durability combined possibly with Tsukiyomi, although i dont know whether he could use it to the potential Itachi did, even with Itachi's eyes.



WHAT? Arer you even reading this manga anymore? 

Let me get this straight. This is Madara's plan according to you:

1. I will revive the jyuubi 
2. Become its jinchiruki and use its chakra
3. I will cast a mugen tsukuyomi
4. Shit! I don't have tsukuyomi. I can't cast it
5. No worries, Sasuke has it
6. Shit! Sasuke does not have the jyuubi chakra, the tsukuyomi can't be mugen
7. Shit! My plan is screwed 




the level of bullshit you read on this board is just amazing



Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> So it seems that Sasuke may be key to Mugen Tsukiyomi. IMO, of course. Just thought i would point those things out .



Of course. He is!!! Stop dreaming and read the manga. To cast mugen tsukuyomi you need to have the jyuubi chakra


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 11, 2010)

> The author seems to indicate that SM and MS are an equal Power up; I also don't think the author has ever really suggested that Itachi w/o MS is a-lot stronger then Jiraiya w/o SM. If we take the authors indications of MS's equality to SM and then we look at the fact that Jiriaya and Itachi w/o these respective power ups are both incredibly skilled Ninja with nether really seeming to be significantly stronger then thee other its no wonder that people believe this statement to have some level of validity to it.




the author has stated plenty of times that Oro > jiraiya. but yet you also over look this. on top of that, jiriaya never perfected SM, so if you believe that SM and MS are equal powers up, how can someone who hasnt mastered his crafted be better then someone else who has perfected theirs. in base mode they are not equals at all. jiriaya has shown no feats to counter genjustu. and he hasnt shown any speed feats in base to prove that he can keep up with itachi. how can you guys compare their base, when jiriaya has zero feats to prove he would do better then the genius out of the sannins ( Oro ). and there is nothing in HM that is going to take down susano. all of the MS just can be active within a blink of an eye, but yet jiriaya suppose to have some kind of omniscient knowledge about everything right


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If the strongest jutsu we've seen up to date causes no problems for Jiraiya, believe me, nothing else would.
> 
> Susano'o is guaranteed win. The only question is, whether Itachi needs it or not.



Because avoiding it is impossible? When Jiraiya's very capable of doing so or killing Itachi before it even comes into play.


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## Panos (Jun 11, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If the strongest jutsu we've seen up to date causes no problems for Jiraiya, believe me, nothing else would.
> 
> Susano'o is guaranteed win. The only question is, whether Itachi needs it or not.



Of course Itachi does not need something so powerful as Susanno to kill Jiraiya.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 11, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Because avoiding it is impossible? When Jiraiya's very capable of doing so or killing Itachi before it even comes into play.



see lighty, this is my problem with you. how can you say that jiriaya would kill itachi before susano when the justu it self is almost instant. but shit like frog song and HM take pages/chapters/and hiding to achieve??? all MS justus can come at you in the blink of an eye...literally


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

Not really. Amaterasu took Itachi some time to use against Sasuke. Susanoo goes up fast, but against Kirin, Sasuke gave Itachi ample warning. Jiraiya has plenty of ways to kill Itachi as well and Frog Croak is also just as instant as any MS jutsu and paralyzes the target. Not frog Song, mind, Frog Croak.


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## Panos (Jun 11, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Not really. Amaterasu took Itachi some time to use against Sasuke. Susanoo goes up fast, but against Kirin, Sasuke gave Itachi ample warning. Jiraiya has plenty of ways to kill Itachi as well and Frog Croak is also just as instant as any MS jutsu and paralyzes the target. Not frog Song, mind, Frog Croak.



No. Susanoo wasnt called untill Kirin was casted. Kirin is a lighting bold yet Itachi was able to cast Susanoo in this time.

So yeah really.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

Pay attention to what I actually say.

Sasuke spent plenty of time preparing and showing off Kirin, thinking Itachi couldn't survive. Result?


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 11, 2010)

amaterasu is a blink. at the most a blink with a slight pause. susano'o is almost instant, explain to me how frog croak is killing itachi? if the frogs get it off susanon can easily be be turned on, the shield will null the justu all together


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## Jinnobi (Jun 11, 2010)

> Do you concede that were he on guard, not stuck in a snake's throat and considering a threat, it'd make a difference?
> Like when he fought Naruto.



Not at all. Once again, you totally missed my point.

≠


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> amaterasu is a blink. at the most a blink with a slight pause. susano'o is almost instant, explain to me how frog croak is killing itachi? if the frogs get it off susanon can easily be be turned on, the shield will null the justu all together


Way to not even understand Jiraiya's moves. Frog Croak paralyzes the victim and makes it so they can't focus.
Amaterasu from Itachi took some time, hence Sasuke interrupting it. 




Jinnobi said:


> Not at all. Once again, you totally missed my point.
> 
> ≠



Oh, look your usual "Poking holes in it means you don't understand my genius" strategy.


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2010)

> If the strongest jutsu we've seen up to date causes no problems for Jiraiya, believe me, nothing else would.


Ohh Please Susano'o is not the Strongest Jutsu we have Seen to date. Pain Rikudo is Far Better then It, Gedou Mazou Seems Better to me, Sage Mode is better then it, Edo Tensi is better then it, Madara and Minato's S/T Ninjutsu is better then it, Tsukuyomi is better then it, Shodai's Bijuu Control is better then it, Madara's Kyuubi Summoning and Control is better then it, and so on

Susano'o is a good jutsu, but its main advantage is in Defense.


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## Smiley (Jun 11, 2010)

Good match up. But I'd give this too Itachi.

Without knowledge, Jiraiya would ultimatley fall for Genjutsu. Sage mode needs preparation in which Itachi will not allow. Amateratsu would most likely end this since Jiraiya has no other counters.

However, if Jiraiya were to activate SM this could be a far more even match. Frog song could disable Itachi's movements and from there Jiraiya could rap it up. Summons could cause Itachi some problems but Amateratsu or Susanoo could deal with this. However, it is debateable if Doton Yomi Numa could sink Susanoo.

But overall Itachi would win 6/10 times.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 11, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Oh, look your usual "Poking holes in it means you don't understand my genius" strategy.



Veiled _ad hominmen _ attack. Nice.

It's not hard to understand that Orochimaru was shocked at the speed of Totsuka stabbing him. He wasn't afraid of the sword, yet he was looking right at Itachi and Susano'o. He wasn't blindsided. He was looking. He was shocked because he was impaled. It was because he didn't see it coming.

It's like being shot with a gun. Even if you can't die from the bullet, you'd still be taken off-guard by its speed.



> Ohh Please Susano'o is not the Strongest Jutsu we have Seen to date. Pain Rikudo is Far Better then It, Gedou Mazou Seems Better to me, Sage Mode is better then it, Edo Tensi is better then it, Madara and Minato's S/T Ninjutsu is better then it, Tsukuyomi is better then it, Shodai's Bijuu Control is better then it, Madara's Kyuubi Summoning and Control is better then it, and so on
> 
> Susano'o is a good jutsu, but its main advantage is in Defense.



In others words, "I have an opinion so I must be right."


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## Smiley (Jun 11, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Veiled _ad hominmen _ attack. Nice.
> 
> It's not hard to understand that Orochimaru was shocked at the speed of Totsuka stabbing him. He wasn't afraid of the sword, yet he was looking right at Itachi and Susano'o. He wasn't blindsided. He was looking. He was shocked because he was impaled. It was because he didn't see it coming.
> 
> It's like being shot with a gun. Even if you can't die from the bullet, you'd still be taken off-guard by its speed.



I somewhat slightly agree with you. However, I do think he was suprised due to Itachi having the Totsuka sword. He only looked shock when he got impaled becuase of the pain, Oro still feels pain but after that he laughed since it physical pain means nothing to him, only to find out he was going to be sealed.

As with the bullet thing, I disagree. If you looked at someone shooting you, thats not being caught of guard. Off guard is when your not focusing on a attack and it hits you. If one were to be shot, the pain would shock him, not the speed since its to be expected from a gun.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 11, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> Without knowledge, Jiraiya would ultimatley fall for Genjutsu.



Jiraiya is a Konoha ninja, he knows about the sharingan. Even without specific knowledge he is a bad match-up for a genjutsu user because his fighting style revolves around using intelligent summons who can cancel genjutsu.



KazujiN said:


> Sage mode needs preparation in which Itachi will not allow.



You guys always seem to forget what Pa's recommendation was for using sage mode. Use it when you have comrades that can cover for you otherwise, retreat and come back. How can Jiraiya retreat? Reverse summoning.



KazujiN said:


> Amateratusu would most likely end this since Jiraiya has no other counters.



There is no jutsu more overrated than amaterasu. First, it is not as fast as people on this board believe it to be. Gaara blocked it. Slow as shit hachibi put a tentacle in its face before it was hit by amaterasu. Sasuke outran it for a while and raikage simply shunshin'ed out of the way. Now, Jiraiya is faster than Gaara and Hachibi, which means he will be able to react to amaterasu. 

How does he counter it? He could simply use wild lion mane. Once his hair is activated, amaterasu hits the hair. Amaterasu will not burn metal faster than it burned Konoha's trees (look at the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight). After this, Jiraiya simply needs to use shunshin, write his seals and seal amaterasu



KazujiN said:


> However, if Jiraiya were to activate SM this could be a far more even match. Frog song could disable Itachi's movements and from there Jiraiya could rap it up. Summons could cause Itachi some problems but Amateratsu or Susanoo could deal with this. Howevr, it is debateable if Doton Yomi Numa could sink Susanoo.



1. given the number of summons Jiraiya can bring to the fore, amaterasu and susano'o are not going to be enough. 
2. There is no debate anymore that yomi numa would work on susano'o. This has been proven


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2010)

> In others words, "I have an opinion so I must be right."


Some of them are Opinion based i admit, but if you really think Susano'o > Pain Rikudo, Edo Tensi(Kabuto's Variation), or Shodai's Bijuu Control Jutsu then i don't know what to say to you.


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## CrazyMoronX (Jun 11, 2010)

One of the only canon characters with a counter for the undefeated Frog Esophagus/Frog Song combo. 

Still, its debatable if Itachi can burn through with Amaterasu before he gets caught in Frog Song.


I'm going to say Jiraiya wins with his epic combo, yet again.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 11, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Way to not even understand Jiraiya's moves. Frog Croak paralyzes the victim and makes it so they can't focus.
> Amaterasu from Itachi took some time, hence Sasuke interrupting it.



way not to understand the circumstanses in which itachi amaterasu didnt fry sasuke in a instance. 1) sasuke just broke TS, 2) itachi was throwing the whole fight anyways.

also the shield is cancelling any justu thats thrown at it, Frog Croak aint making it past the shield. not to mention they might be hitting a KB anyways


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu come from different eyes.
Secondly, Amaterasu still has a delay with Itachi. He was about to be fried when he used it so he wasn't sandbagging there.

And Jiraiya and the Toads can sense their opponents so they'll know of any bunshins-naturla energy.

And Susanoo does not block SOUND, which is what Frog Croak is: sonic waves. Hearing it will still paralyze Itachi


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 11, 2010)

you, my friend.... fail.... it doesnt matter what eye it comes from the was still recoil for getting his justu broken, but the main reason is because ITACHI WAS THROWING THE FIGHT... there is no delay... what makes you think itachi's amaterasu is slower than sasuke's. where are you getting this from? and when he used it to counter the katon, it took a blink.

scans of jiriaya sensing other ppls charka, i thought that was just naruto???

....are you telling me that the shield cant cancel the charka the frogs produce?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> you, my friend.... fail.... it doesnt matter what eye it comes from the was still recoil for getting his justu broken,



Really? He had ample time to recover here, y'know



> but the main reason is because ITACHI WAS THROWING THE FIGHT... there is no delay... what makes you think itachi's amaterasu is slower than sasuke's. where are you getting this from? and when he used it to counter the katon, it took a blink.


A 'blink?' It was several panels of his eye closed...THEN it started bleeding, then he opens it when it was pooling blood and used it. Seriously. And stop using 'throwing the fight' as an excuse when he had to FIRST beat Sasuke down to get Orochimaru out. Ther



> scans of jiriaya sensing other ppls charka, i thought that was just naruto???


It's natural to Sage Mode. Fukasaku and Shima can do it, too.



> ....are you telling me that the shield cant cancel the charka the frogs produce?


This isn't a chakra oriented attack, it's just sonic waves. Sound. Can Itachi hear?


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 11, 2010)

a bunch of panels huh??? its not an excuse its fact. he was throwing the fight get over yourself. and even if you believe he wasnt. he was still sick and dying anyway, and his TS was just broken. he didnt have ample time. gtfo with that weak sauce.

scans of jiriaya finding ppl with charka plz, im waiting

is charka being used for frog croak? yes or no?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> a bunch of panels huh??? its not an excuse its fact.


I said several, which was true



> he was throwing the fight get over yourself. and even if you believe he wasnt. he was still sick and dying anyway, and his TS was just broken. he didnt have ample time. gtfo with that weak sauce.


He was throwing it *IN THE END*. He had to beat Sasuke down to free him of Orochimaru.
His Tsukuyomi was broken? Sure. Amaterasu is used from a different eye and his Sharingan was back in action again when the fight continued. There is no evidence his other eye was weakened from the Tsukuyomi.




> scans of jiriaya finding ppl with charka plz, im waiting


Oh, for...this is what Sage Mode lets you do: feel natural energy. 

Here's Shima feeling Pain

Fukasaku doing so.



> is charka being used for frog croak? yes or no?



It's *SOUND*. What part of that isn't getting through?

Can Itachi hear, yes or no?


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## Butt Hole lol (Jun 11, 2010)

Itachi wins imo, one amaterasu would easily take care of jiraiya and i dont think Jiraiya can dodge such an attack, Itachi wins 7/10 times imo.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 11, 2010)

A. Itachi doesn't use it right off
B. Jiraiya would get out of his field of vision before he used it
C. Jiraiya definitely attacks faster and can nail Itachi before he uses it.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 11, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I said several, which was true



so like what 10sec, or did 10 mins pass???



> He was throwing it *IN THE END*. He had to beat Sasuke down to free him of Orochimaru.
> His Tsukuyomi was broken? Sure. Amaterasu is used from a different eye and his Sharingan was back in action again when the fight continued. There is no evidence his other eye was weakened from the Tsukuyomi.



it doesnt matter what eye, if you strain yourself you strain yourself





> Oh, for...this is what Sage Mode lets you do: feel natural energy.
> 
> Here's Shima feeling Pain
> 
> Fukasaku doing so.



wtf is this shit??? shima felt pain arua, so i guess itachi caan do the same since he was able to sense Oro




> It's *SOUND*. What part of that isn't getting through?



protip: justu use charka, there is charka in the sound waves


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> so like what 10sec, or did 10 mins pass???


Seconds, when did I imply otherwise?



> it doesnt matter what eye, if you strain yourself you strain yourself


No, it does matter. He strained the Amaterasu eye and blinded it and not the other via using Amaterasu. Tsukuyomi would follow thusly





> wtf is this shit??? shima felt pain arua, so i guess itachi caan do the same since he was able to sense Oro


No, she felt his presence. From a distance. 

Here as well





> protip: justu use charka, there is charka in the sound waves


Point is: If you hear it, then you're frozen. And Itachi will hear it before he puts Susanoo up, which he doesn't use at the drop of a hat, y'know.


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## Butt Hole lol (Jun 12, 2010)

Itachi doesnt just have amaterasu he has even more powerful MS techniques and an array of jutsu that he can use. His genjutsu alone would give Jiraiya a very hard time even when he has summons out on the feild. Jiraiya is no where near as fast as raikage so avioding amaterasu would be almost impossible for him.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

Jiraiya in Sage Mode is highly resistant to Genjutsu and by and large, he has two partners constantly Kai-ing him.

And Jiraiya's shunshin was so fast, the ground beneath him exploded. He needs to interrupt the Amaterasu. If Sasuke could?


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## Butt Hole lol (Jun 12, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya in Sage Mode is highly resistant to Genjutsu and by and large, he has two partners constantly Kai-ing him.


HM jiraiya isnt highly resistant to genjutsu, where is the proof?
Itachi's genjutsu's are so realistic they probably wont even know there in one. And Itachi can put them under multiple layers of genjutsu easily. And he also has Tsukuyomi which can severly cripple Jiraiya and breaking out of it is impossible since it happens in an instant.



> And Jiraiya's shunshin was so fast, the ground beneath him exploded.


That doesnt proof he can dodge amaterasu



> He needs to interrupt the Amaterasu. If Sasuke could?


he might be able to interrupt it if he's lucky but amaterasu isnt everything itachi has. If itachi Continually spams amaterasu Jiraiya is bound to get caught in the flames.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> HM jiraiya isnt highly resistant to genjutsu, where is the proof?
> Itachi's genjutsu's are so realistic they probably wont even know there in one. And Itachi can put them under multiple layers of genjutsu easily. And he also has Tsukuyomi which can severly cripple Jiraiya and breaking out of it is impossible since it happens in an instant.


They can feel his chakra, they're natural sensors. Jiraiya is highly intelligent, which is vital to realizing it. He's naturally resistant in Sage Mode and his chakra is constantly disrupted via incorporation of natural energy. 
Itachi doesn't use Sage Mode right off either, now does he? Nor will Jiraiya meet his gaze like that.

Why will Jiraiya always be caught when he can instantly use Food Cart Crusher? Senpu Goemon? Chou Oodama Rasengan? Kanbari Senbon? Yomi Numa?



> That doesnt proof he can dodge amaterasu


It's a step in that direction. He can clear Itachi's line of sight or attack him first




> he might be able to interrupt it if he's lucky but amaterasu isnt everything itachi has. If itachi Continually spams amaterasu Jiraiya is bound to get caught in the flames.


problem: Itachi can only use two or three and Jiraiya can attack first or between it. Sasuke did.


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## Butt Hole lol (Jun 12, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> They can feel his chakra, they're natural sensors..


Not if Itachi places them all in genjutsu, if he decides use Tsukuyomi which is the strongest genjutsu in the manga its all over for them.



> Jiraiya is highly intelligent, which is vital to realizing it. He's naturally resistant in Sage Mode and his chakra is constantly disrupted via incorporation of natural energy.


Jiraiya is intelligent but he isnt on Itachi level intelligence, so Itachi will always be a couple of steps ahead of him. Itachi's high level Genjutsu can still work, especially Tsukuyomi.



> Itachi doesn't use Sage Mode right off either, now does he? Nor will Jiraiya meet his gaze like that.


Sage mode? you probably mean MS, and yes he would use it if he wants to win quickly.



> Why will Jiraiya always be caught when he can instantly use Food Cart Crusher? Senpu Goemon? Chou Oodama Rasengan? Kanbari Senbon? Yomi Numa?


Itachi is as smart as they get, he wont be wasting chakra he would wait for the right moment to use it and that is when jiraiya's defence is weak. And also Jiraiya has no answer to Tsukuyomi or Sasuno.



> It's a step in that direction. He can clear Itachi's line of sight or attack him first


Itachi is extremly fast he has a 5 in speed and sharingan it would be unlikely that Jiraiya can do this.




> problem: Itachi can only use two or three and Jiraiya can attack first or between it. Sasuke did.



No Itachi can use more especially a healthy one.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 12, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> HM jiraiya isnt highly resistant to genjutsu, where is the proof?
> 
> Itachi's genjutsu's are so realistic they probably wont even know there in one. And Itachi can put them under multiple layers of genjutsu easily. And he also has Tsukuyomi which can severly cripple Jiraiya and breaking out of it is impossible since it happens in an instant.


The fundamentals of the genjutsu in general are reason enough that it's useless as a whole. It is said that, the users cast genjutsu by manipulating the cranial flow of chakra. This means manipulating Jiraiya's chakra, which under normal circumstances probably would be an instant opening for Itachi. 

However, in accordance with the stipulation to this thread (Jiraiya starting in SM), his chakra is different than any other shinobi's chakra with the addition of natural energy to his chakra pool. How is Itachi supposed to manipulate a chakra that is stronger than his own, with his own chakra?

Additionally, as a whole, all genjutsu (Tsukiyomi included) would be useless on Jiraiya due to his sage mode requirements of Ma/Pa being attached to him at all times. Since they are fused with Jiraiya at all times, they would be able to cancel out any type of genjutsu because they would detect a foreign chakra. 

Furthermore, Jiraiya's has a much tougher constitute than Sasuke or Kakashi, especially in SM so odds are he'd make it through Tsukiyomi. I mean, the man did engage six people with only one arm and managed to kill one of them too. Since he accomplished that, odds are he'd make it through Tsukiyomi (assuming it actually worked). 

In essence, what I have stated is an enormous blow to Itachi whose forte mostly involves genjutsu at the forefront followed by supportive ninjutsu. In addition, it was also stated that he was skilled in taijutsu, however, engaging Jiraiya in hand to hand would be instant death for someone of his weak constitute.

Even having knowledge on Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, wouldn't give Jiraiya the advantage he needs to defeat Itachi. Susano'o is the deal-breaker and as I have stated many times before the greatest power of a technique is not knowing the other person has it. If Jiraiya had knowledge of Susano'o, he would be victorious, but since he doesn't there's a greater chance he'd lose.


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## Smiley (Jun 12, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> Not if Itachi places them all in genjutsu, if he decides use Tsukuyomi which is the strongest genjutsu in the manga its all over for them.
> 
> *
> Tsukuyomi is not the strongest genjutsu in the manga, It's Izanagi.*
> ...



I answered all above in red.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> Not if Itachi places them all in genjutsu, if he decides use Tsukuyomi which is the strongest genjutsu in the manga its all over for them.



'All?' Itachi has only shown he can genjutsu one at a time.  And after a Tsukuyomi he can't even keep the MS active.



> Jiraiya is intelligent but he isnt on Itachi level intelligence, so Itachi will always be a couple of steps ahead of him. Itachi's high level Genjutsu can still work, especially Tsukuyomi.


Jiraiya is quite on that level. He's displayed equal or better battle smarts. He knows how to break Genjutsu and realize he's in it. He had a whole bit on it to Naruto.
And no, having slightly more intellect doesn';t always mean you're always a step ahead.



> Sage mode? you probably mean MS, and yes he would use it if he wants to win quickly.


Except ICly, he doesn't. 




> Itachi is as smart as they get, he wont be wasting chakra he would wait for the right moment to use it and that is when jiraiya's defence is weak. And also Jiraiya has no answer to Tsukuyomi or Sasuno.


Yeah, he does. Tsukuyomi? Avoid eye contact and get out of there during the blink. Susanoo? Avoid it, Yomi Numa and just sink Itachi himself



> Itachi is extremly fast he has a 5 in speed and sharingan it would be unlikely that Jiraiya can do this.


With his speed boosts, Jiraiya is much faster. Pain needed shared vision to keep up





> No Itachi can use more especially a healthy one.


His stamina doesn't change. He has a 2.5 And 'healthy' doesn't cut it when Kimimaro had a 4.5


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## Butt Hole lol (Jun 12, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> 'All?' Itachi has only shown he can genjutsu one at a time.  And after a Tsukuyomi he can't even keep the MS active.


He can cast multiple genjutu's rapidly thus creating layers of genjutsu.
One Tsukuyomi is all its going to take imo. And if Itachi really needs to he can resort to Sasuno which Jiraiya has no counter for.




> Jiraiya is quite on that level. He's displayed equal or better battle smarts. He knows how to break Genjutsu and realize he's in it. He had a whole bit on it to Naruto.


Jiraiya isnt as smart as Itachi. Jiraiya admitted himself that he's terrible at genjutsu. He's probably going to have trouble trying to dispel a regular genjutsu let alone break a tsukuyomi.



> And no, having slightly more intellect doesn';t always mean you're always a step ahead.


Itachi is much smarter then Jiraiya, in order to use genjutsu you have to be very smart, and Itachi's genjutsu's are off the scale serously he much smarter then Jiraiya.




> Yeah, he does. Tsukuyomi? Avoid eye contact and get out of there during the blink. Susanoo? Avoid it, Yomi Numa and just sink Itachi himself


I  highly doubt it, jiraiya barley knows about the sharingan and MS and its not his style to aviod eye contact. If he aviods eye contact he could very well be blitz and overwhelmed by Itachi.It's been stated that you should always keep your eyes on a sharingan user, especially Itachi.
 If Itahci's sasuno is as fast as sasuke's which it is most likely then jiraiya wont be able to aviod it. Yomi numa would most likely not work it only good on big summons.

ALSO READ THE OP! he states Jiraiya has NO knowledge on sharingan!



> With his speed boosts, Jiraiya is much faster. Pain needed shared vision to keep up


No infact hungry ghost realm was matching him in tiajutsu and was more then able to react to him in HM. One other thing i would like to mention is that jiraiya's HM is no where as good as Naruto's SM.




> His stamina doesn't change. He has a 2.5 And 'healthy' doesn't cut it when Kimimaro had a 4.5


2.5 is all he needs, and mentioning kimmimaro is irrelvant because he used a cursedseal. Jiraiya only has a 3 in genjutsu he's pretty much weak against genutsu he even admitted it himself. And what makes you think Itachi will give Jiraiya the time to go into HM?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> He can cast multiple genjutu's rapidly thus creating layers of genjutsu.
> One Tsukuyomi is all its going to take imo. And if Itachi really needs to he can resort to Sasuno which Jiraiya has no counter for.


Yes, yes, he's so awesome and amazing, he can do ANYTHING! Never mind even Orochimaru realized he was in a Genjutsu and broke it before he lost the sand. Jiraiya ahs the intellect, the method and in Sage Mode, he's way more resistant

Itachi has no counter to Yomi Numa, and? Jiraiya takes a handseal for it.




> Jiraiya isnt as smart as Itachi. Jiraiya admitted himself that he's terrible at genjutsu. He's probably going to have trouble trying to dispel a regular genjutsu let alone break a tsukuyomi.


You lie.
He stated he doesn't use it because he's not a Genjutsu type, not the same thing. He stressed even with this, one has to know how to deal with and break it.
And Jiraiya is just as smart in many ays



> Itachi is much smarter then Jiraiya, in order to use genjutsu you have to be very smart, and Itachi's genjutsu's are off the scale serously he much smarter then Jiraiya.


'Much' smarter He's only .5 points above in intelligence. 
Shikamaru is smarter than anyone and he has Jiraiya's Genjutsu stat, so what? Some people are less talented in certain areas




> I  highly doubt it, jiraiya barley knows about the sharingan and MS and its not his style to aviod eye contact. If he aviods eye contact he could very well be blitz and overwhelmed by Itachi.It's been stated that you should always keep your eyes on a sharingan user, especially Itachi.
> If Itahci's sasuno is as fast as sasuke's which it is most likely then jiraiya wont be able to aviod it. Yomi numa would most likely not work it only good on big summons.


Oh, for...Jiraiya grew up with Uchiha around, knows about Itachi and saw him use Tsukuyomi. He can read Itachi's movements from looking at his body.  And he has Pa and Ma attacking. 
And no, Yomi Numa worked fine on a Pain body. Databook says the size depends on how the user wants.

Plus, Jiraiya in HM is faster than Danzo or Sasuke by far.



> ALSO READ THE OP! he states Jiraiya has NO knowledge on sharingan!


and Itachi has none on Hermit Mode. Normal Genjutsu is useless thanks to Sage mode as Pa and Ma can attack anyways.
What does Itachi do about all those moves I mentioned? Non bullshit answers



> No infact hungry ghost realm was matching him in tiajutsu and was more then able to react to him in HM. One other thing i would like to mention is that jiraiya's HM is no where as good as Naruto's SM.


No, Jiraiya's wasn't perfected. Nothing stated it trailed far behind. He has advantages Naruto didn't in it.
And Hungry Ghost and Jiraiya never fought in Taijutsu. Human Realm did. And Human Realm has shown superior speed to Itachi




> 2.5 is all he needs, and mentioning kimmimaro is irrelvant because he used a cursedseal. Jiraiya only has a 3 in genjutsu he's pretty much weak against genutsu he even admitted it himself. And what makes you think Itachi will give Jiraiya the time to go into HM?



Sorry, but stamina measures only base stamina of which Kimi had a 4.5...Sasuke has the CS but only a 3.5.
and Shikamaru has a 3 in Genjutsu, but he easily dispelled Kabuto's on himself.
Jiraiya's three just means he doesn't use it. He's not weak against it and has a method for countering it. In Sage Mode, his genjutsu abilities rise dramatically.

And gee, what stops Jiraiya from going into a barrier? And since this is HM Jiraiya...

Jiraiya makes a Yomi Numa the size of which that sunk the giant snake, makes it much deeper.

This is instant when the seal is made. The mud ensnares and sucks the victim under right away. 

Jiraiya also makes kage bunshins to distract Itachi. He uses Kanbari senbon, Senpu Goemon, frog Croak, summons Hiro out of a 200 meter drop right above Itachi and Yomi Numa. 

Itachi survives how?

5/10 at BEST for Itachi, quit wanking him so much.


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## oMuerte (Jun 12, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yes, yes, he's so awesome and amazing, he can do ANYTHING! Never mind even Orochimaru realized he was in a Genjutsu and broke it before he lost the sand. Jiraiya ahs the intellect, the method and in Sage Mode, he's way more resistant
> 
> Itachi has no counter to Yomi Numa, and? Jiraiya takes a handseal for it.


 Orochimaru was in a normal Genjutsu and got pwnt. Tsukuyomi is different where as a couple of days passed in that time frame, only seconds has passed in the real world. Intellect and resistance is meaningless with Itachi's power of controlling time with his Genjutsu's. 





Lightysnake said:


> You lie.
> He stated he doesn't use it because he's not a Genjutsu type, not the same thing. He stressed even with this, one has to know how to deal with and break it.
> And Jiraiya is just as smart in many ays


 One being not being good at Genjutsu will have trouble breaking out a top tier one. Kurenai was a Genjutsu type and they were proven to be worthless against Itachi.




Lightysnake said:


> 'Much' smarter He's only .5 points above in intelligence.
> Shikamaru is smarter than anyone and he has Jiraiya's Genjutsu stat, so what? Some people are less talented in certain areas


 Every point counts.





Lightysnake said:


> Oh, for...Jiraiya grew up with Uchiha around, knows about Itachi and saw him use Tsukuyomi. He can read Itachi's movements from looking at his body.  And he has Pa and Ma attacking.
> And no, Yomi Numa worked fine on a Pain body. Databook says the size depends on how the user wants.
> 
> Plus, Jiraiya in HM is faster than Danzo or Sasuke by far.
> ...


Ma and Pa need to be with Jiraiya at all times otherwise he losses the mode. Anyone who looks into Itachi's eyes will be trapped in a Genutsu meaning if Ma and Pa looked they will be trap. Sure, Jiraiya was around when Uchiha's were walking, but battling one to the death and friendly competition is two different things. Yomi worked on one Pain body, the summoner.




Lightysnake said:


> No, Jiraiya's wasn't perfected. Nothing stated it trailed far behind. He has advantages Naruto didn't in it.
> And Hungry Ghost and Jiraiya never fought in Taijutsu. Human Realm did. And Human Realm has shown superior speed to Itachi.


Sasuke was pretty speedy, Itachi has shown to keep up with Sasuke, with sick health and a bit of his power handed to Naruto. Also, he wasn't in a kill-mode so to speak. 






Lightysnake said:


> Sorry, but stamina measures only base stamina of which Kimi had a 4.5...Sasuke has the CS but only a 3.5.
> and Shikamaru has a 3 in Genjutsu, but he easily dispelled Kabuto's on himself.
> Jiraiya's three just means he doesn't use it. He's not weak against it and has a method for countering it. In Sage Mode, his genjutsu abilities rise dramatically.


 I'd to know how Jiraiya can counter a genjutsu where time is manipulated. Tsukuyomi is very different and only an Uchiha with the sharingan can break out of it. Kakashi was a perfect example of that. And Sasuke was as well. Sasuke's genjutsu was weak compared to Itachi's, Danzo stated and proven that. KB proved that when he battled. And even then they were caught into it and managed to get out with lent powers. (Izanagi and 8-tails ftw.)



Lightysnake said:


> And gee, what stops Jiraiya from going into a barrier? And since this is HM Jiraiya...


 LOL Jiraiya can do barriers?




Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya makes a Yomi Numa the size of which that sunk the giant snake, makes it much deeper.
> 
> This is instant when the seal is made. The mud ensnares and sucks the victim under right away.


 One is, get away from the mud. Fire can harden mud, one Katon is enough.



Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya also makes kage bunshins to distract Itachi. He uses Kanbari senbon, Senpu Goemon, frog Croak, summons Hiro out of a 200 meter drop right above Itachi and Yomi Numa.
> 
> Itachi survives how?


 Susanowoo. Clones, finger genjutsu. Dodging. Fire-verse attacks. Tsukyomi? Water-versed attacks?



Lightysnake said:


> 5/10 at BEST for Itachi, quit wanking him so much.


 Might want to take your own advice there.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 12, 2010)

oMuerte said:


> Orochimaru was in a normal Genjutsu and got pwnt. Tsukuyomi is different where as a couple of days passed in that time frame, only seconds has passed in the real world. Intellect and resistance is meaningless with Itachi's power of controlling time with his Genjutsu's.


The fundamentals of the genjutsu in general are reason enough that it's useless as a whole. It is said that, the users cast genjutsu by manipulating the cranial flow of chakra. This means manipulating Jiraiya's chakra, which under normal circumstances probably would be an instant opening for Itachi. 

However, in accordance with the stipulation to this thread (Jiraiya starting in SM), his chakra is different than any other shinobi's chakra with the addition of natural energy to his chakra pool. How is Itachi supposed to manipulate a chakra that is stronger than his own, with his own chakra? _Please._


oMuerte said:


> I'd to know how Jiraiya can counter a genjutsu where time is manipulated. Tsukuyomi is very different and only an Uchiha with the sharingan can break out of it. Kakashi was a perfect example of that. And Sasuke was as well. Sasuke's genjutsu was weak compared to Itachi's, Danzo stated and proven that. KB proved that when he battled. And even then they were caught into it and managed to get out with lent powers. (Izanagi and 8-tails ftw.)


Additionally, as a whole, all genjutsu (Tsukiyomi included) would be useless on Jiraiya due to his sage mode requirements of Ma/Pa being attached to him at all times. Since they are fused with Jiraiya at all times, they would be able to cancel out any type of genjutsu because they would detect a foreign chakra. 

Furthermore, Jiraiya's has a much tougher constitute than Sasuke or Kakashi, especially in SM so odds are he'd make it through Tsukiyomi. I mean, the man did engage six people with only one arm and managed to kill one of them too. Since he accomplished that, odds are he'd make it through Tsukiyomi (assuming it actually worked).


oMuerte said:


> One being not being good at Genjutsu will have trouble breaking out a top tier one. Kurenai was a Genjutsu type and they were proven to be worthless against Itachi.


Casting genjustu and breaking genjutsu are two entirely different skills and should be treated differently. Simply because Jiraiya stated that he's not much of a genjutsu user doesn't render him being a horrendous genjutsu breaker.



oMuerte said:


> LOL Jiraiya can do barriers?


He has demonstrated a couple of barriers in his brief fight against Pain. I suggest you re-read that fight, instead posting and making yourself look like a flat-out fan-wanking Itachi lover.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

oMuerte said:


> Orochimaru was in a normal Genjutsu and got pwnt. Tsukuyomi is different where as a couple of days passed in that time frame, only seconds has passed in the real world. Intellect and resistance is meaningless with Itachi's power of controlling time with his Genjutsu's.


Yes, yes, we know the wank.
Never mind that Orochimaru was breaking the genjutsu, Jiraiya is even stronger in Sage Mode, has partners, etc



> One being not being good at Genjutsu will have trouble breaking out a top tier one. Kurenai was a Genjutsu type and they were proven to be worthless against Itachi.


Oh, like Shikamaru had trouble breaking Kabuto's A-rank AoE genjutsu?
Kabuto had a 4.5 in Genjutsu, btw. 
Trying to suggest Kurenai>Jiraiya? He already said despite not being a Genjutsu type he had to know to deal with and fight it.



> Every point counts.


Note the keywords 'much.'
He's displayed equal or superior battle smarts




> Ma and Pa need to be with Jiraiya at all times otherwise he losses the mode. Anyone who looks into Itachi's eyes will be trapped in a Genutsu meaning if Ma and Pa looked they will be trap. Sure, Jiraiya was around when Uchiha's were walking, but battling one to the death and friendly competition is two different things. Yomi worked on one Pain body, the summoner.


Itachi has shown he can trap one person at a time, nothing more.
And yeah, Jiraiya was hailed as one of the top dogs, even with the Uchiha like Shisui and Fugaku around. And yomi Numa worked on a Pain body? Delightful. It'll work fine on Itachi then.




> Sasuke was pretty speedy, Itachi has shown to keep up with Sasuke, with sick health and a bit of his power handed to Naruto. Also, he wasn't in a kill-mode so to speak.


BASE Jiraiya has equal speed to Sasuke.
And prove what he did to Naruto weakened him. At all. Go on.





> I'd to know how Jiraiya can counter a genjutsu where time is manipulated. Tsukuyomi is very different and only an Uchiha with the sharingan can break out of it. Kakashi was a perfect example of that. And Sasuke was as well. Sasuke's genjutsu was weak compared to Itachi's, Danzo stated and proven that. KB proved that when he battled. And even then they were caught into it and managed to get out with lent powers. (Izanagi and 8-tails ftw.)


And Danzo didn't use Izanagi on the Tsukuyomi. He dispelled it on his own. Izanagi would literally warp time. Kakashi was also confident enough to meet Itachi's eyes when he had Ms. Itachi was taken aback.
And simple: Jiraiya doesn't look him in the eye. It's basic to fight an opponent via watching their body and not the eyes whereas Ma and Pa can just attack at any juncture. Itachi ICly doesn't even use Tsukuyomi right off.




> LOL Jiraiya can do barriers?



The Hyoton Gama which warps him into a barrier toad?



> One is, get away from the mud. Fire can harden mud, one Katon is enough.


Can't do that, actually. See, it appears right beneath him. Right off. And immediately sucks him under with chakra infused mud. It's also an A-rank jutsu. Itachi's one fire release is a paltry C-rank with no elemental advantage-he'd need Raiton. So nope, not doing much.

Oh, and he can't do handseals. When caught in Yoma Numa and sucked under? You can't move. Total paralysis.



> Susanowoo. Clones, finger genjutsu. Dodging. Fire-verse attacks. Tsukyomi? Water-versed attacks?
> 
> Might want to take your own advice there.


You know most of those are incompatible with one another? Jiraiya is now faster than Itachi with very fast attacks. Bunshins divide up Itachi's chakra, making it impossible to even USE the Ms jutsu with his small chakra pool so badly depleted.

Itachi can't do suitons without a source. And his katons have no advantage on Jiraiya's moves. Susanoo kind of nearly kills him and Jiraiya would just leave or bunshin counter for the MS itself.

Senpu Goemon? Oil, combined with fire combined with wind that's a boiling sea of thousand degree oil that rushes to reduce one to ashes
Yomi Numa? Explain.
Gama Yuedan, which could be even stronger with Fukasaku and Shima using Katon and fire with it?
Food Cart Crusher which spams a falling Hiro instantly above his head, which'll crush him.
Kanbari Senbon? Rapid fire piercing needles infused with sage chakra, Jiraiya's fastest attack with a wide arc, making it so it can't be blocked.
Not even covering Fukasaku and Shima's sensing, making clone feints ineffective, their own remarkably fast jutsu that even caught Pain off guard with their tongues, Frog Croak, which uses sonic waves to paralyze anyone who hears it, Frog Song...and if it enters Taijutsu? Chou Oodama Rasengan, or one punch finishes things.


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## oMuerte (Jun 12, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Furthermore, Jiraiya's has a much tougher constitute than Sasuke or Kakashi, especially in SM so odds are he'd make it through Tsukiyomi. I mean, the man did engage six people with only one arm and managed to kill one of them too. Since he accomplished that, odds are he'd make it through Tsukiyomi (assuming it actually worked).[/FONT]


Agree'd but that would give an opening to someone such as Itachi, Kakashi made it through and fainted after. However in SM I could be wrong and Jiraiya would recover much faster.



SoLiOZuZ said:


> Casting genjustu and breaking genjutsu are two entirely different skills and should be treated differently. Simply because Jiraiya stated that he's not much of a genjutsu user doesn't render him being a horrendous genjutsu breaker.


 I haven't seen a scan or image of him breaking genjutsu even less a MS type. I could be wrong, you could be wrong.




SoLiOZuZ said:


> He has demonstrated a couple of barriers in his brief fight against Pain. I suggest you re-read that fight, instead posting and making yourself look like a flat-out fan-wanking Itachi lover.


 The problem is, this is a debate. Each takes a side and debates on which character would win. I'm going with Itachi due to Susanowoo, I actually hate Itachi and would love to see him be put down. There are couple of things I don't know, such as him actually making barriers. Didn't notice I made myself look like an Itachi fan-boy. lol


Lightysnake said:


> Yes, yes, we know the wank.
> Never mind that Orochimaru was breaking the genjutsu, Jiraiya is even stronger in Sage Mode, has partners, etc


 What if the partners were also caught in the jutsu?





Lightysnake said:


> Oh, like Shikamaru had trouble breaking Kabuto's A-rank AoE genjutsu?
> Kabuto had a 4.5 in Genjutsu, btw.
> Trying to suggest Kurenai>Jiraiya? He already said despite not being a Genjutsu type he had to know to deal with and fight it.


My mistake.





Lightysnake said:


> Itachi has shown he can trap one person at a time, nothing more. .


 If it could trap one person at time why did Kurenai and Asuma need to close their eyes once Itachi was going to unleash his jutsu?



Lightysnake said:


> And yeah, Jiraiya was hailed as one of the top dogs, even with the Uchiha like Shisui and Fugaku around. And yomi Numa worked on a Pain body? Delightful. It'll work fine on Itachi then


 Agree'd.





Lightysnake said:


> BASE Jiraiya has equal speed to Sasuke.
> And prove what he did to Naruto weakened him. At all. Go on.


 I'll find the chapter in a sec.







Lightysnake said:


> And Danzo didn't use Izanagi on the Tsukuyomi. He dispelled it on his own. Izanagi would literally warp time. Kakashi was also confident enough to meet Itachi's eyes when he had Ms. Itachi was taken aback.
> And simple: Jiraiya doesn't look him in the eye. It's basic to fight an opponent via watching their body and not the eyes whereas Ma and Pa can just attack at any juncture. Itachi ICly doesn't even use Tsukuyomi right off.


 My mistake on Danzo, but he was still caught for a moment. OP said Jiraiya has no knowledge of the sharingan.







Lightysnake said:


> The Hyoton Gama which warps him into a barrier toad?
> 
> 
> Can't do that, actually. See, it appears right beneath him. Right off. And immediately sucks him under with chakra infused mud. It's also an A-rank jutsu. Itachi's one fire release is a paltry C-rank with no elemental advantage-he'd need Raiton. So nope, not doing much.
> ...


 I see that now, forget about what I said about his fire-attack, dodging is his only hope.




Lightysnake said:


> You know most of those are incompatible with one another? Jiraiya is now faster than Itachi with very fast attacks. Bunshins divide up Itachi's chakra, making it impossible to even USE the Ms jutsu with his small chakra pool so badly depleted.
> 
> Itachi can't do suitons without a source. And his katons have no advantage on Jiraiya's moves. Susanoo kind of nearly kills him and Jiraiya would just leave or bunshin counter for the MS itself.
> 
> ...


I was merely saying what possible things Itachi could do. Frog song needs prep btw.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

oMuerte said:


> Agree'd but that would give an opening to someone such as Itachi, Kakashi made it through and fainted after. However in SM I could be wrong and Jiraiya would recover much faster.
> 
> I haven't seen a scan or image of him breaking genjutsu even less a MS type. I could be wrong, you could be wrong.


I'm not going to speculate on Tsukuyomi recovery chances, but it is factual Jiraiya has inhuman endurance and tolerance and in SM has what amounts to unlimited stamina



> What if the partners were also caught in the jutsu?
> 
> My mistake.


That's an 'if.' Shima and fukasaku are inhumanly skilled with Genjutsu. Jiraiya knows how to break it. And there's no guarantee the Sennin'll look him in the eye.





> If it could trap one person at time why did Kurenai and Asuma need to close their eyes once Itachi was going to unleash his jutsu?


Because Itachi could use it on either of them-and take them out quickly...or he'd use it on them after Kakashi. Kakashi at that juncture didn't know of the drain the MS took on Itachi



> Agree'd.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll find the chapter in a sec.


I wouldn't try. He gave Naruto 'a portion of his power.' What this was, if it weakened Itachi at all? No evidence.
Moreover, there was time after that for Jiraiya to dart to Ame and get killed while Itachi relaxed at the Uchiha hideout with Kisame. Itachi had more than enough time to recover.






> My mistake on Danzo, but he was still caught for a moment. OP said Jiraiya has no knowledge of the sharingan.


Anyone can be caught. Dispelling it is something else entirely. Itachi has to move swiftly to dispose of a Genjutsu'd enemy if he can't knock them out or paralyze them completely. And Danzo withstood being incinerated by Amaterasu in that Tsukuyomi to boot.
Itachi has no knowledge of Sennin arts. That's just as bad.





> I see that now, forget about what I said about his fire-attack, dodging is his only hope.


he'd ahve to dodge before Jiraiya gets the jutsu off is the issue




> I was merely saying what possible things Itachi could do. Frog song needs prep btw.


Yes it does. But Jiraiya might get it via his barriers. 
I'm also just stating what Jiraiya can do. There's a fair amount of ways they can best one another.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 12, 2010)

> Additionally, as a whole, all genjutsu (*Tsukiyomi included*) would be useless on Jiraiya due to his sage mode requirements of Ma/Pa being attached to him at all times. Since they are fused with Jiraiya at all times, they would be able to cancel out any type of genjutsu because they would detect a foreign chakra.



Tsukiyomi happens too quickly to break using a Kai - either your own or a partner.



> Furthermore, Jiraiya's has a much tougher constitute than Sasuke or Kakashi, especially in SM so* odds are he'd make it through Tsukiyomi*. I mean, the man did engage six people with only one arm and managed to kill one of them too. S*ince he accomplished that, odds are he'd make it through Tsukiyomi (assuming it actually worked). *



1. Mental trauma ≠ physical trauma. Even the biggest, toughest body-builders on earth are susceptible to Chinese water torture. Tsukiyomi attacks the mind.
2. Even if Tsukiyomi didn't outright kill Jiraiya, it would cripple him or at the very least disorient and slow him - enough for an easy Susano'o or Amaretsu kill.


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## Aoshi (Jun 12, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Tsukiyomi happens too quickly to break using a Kai - either your own or a partner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_You disregard the time it takes to Kai. When one is in SM, they can move and react very fast. For example, SM Naruto appeared almost instantly 100 meters away and killed Asura Path. Now think about it: if that is just his speed, think what his reactions are. Reactions are always going to be faster than your speed, because you need to react before you move. Fukasaku will immediately notice HM Jiraiya's chakra getting disrupted, and will therefore break him out. He has enough reaction time, unless your telling me that Tsukuyomi is literally instant, which is false, because everything in the world needs some form of time. _


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## Jinnobi (Jun 12, 2010)

> Fukasaku will immediately notice HM Jiraiya's chakra getting disrupted, and will therefore break him out. He has enough reaction time, unless your telling me that Tsukuyomi is literally instant, which is false, because everything in the world needs some form of time.



1. You spend a lot of time on one feat from Naruto, and then transfer it to apply to Jiraiya - only to tell me Jiraiya isn't actually doing it. Fukasaku is doing it. And Fukasaku has no speed feats, reactions feats, etc...
2. Tsukiyomi is incredibly fast. While it may not be literally instant, it is portrayed to seem instant to bystanders. For all practical purposes, it is instant.
3. A Kai is a the physical act of stopping chakra and then making it surge to break the genjutsu. By the time a Kai stops his chakra, Jiraiya is already mind raped.
4. Who says that Fukasaku is strong enough to overpower Tsukiyomi?


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## Aoshi (Jun 12, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> 1. You spend a lot of time on one feat from Naruto, and then transfer it to apply to Jiraiya - only to tell me Jiraiya isn't actually doing it. Fukasaku is doing it. And Fukasaku has no speed feats, reactions feats, etc...
> 2. Tsukiyomi is incredibly fast. While it may not be literally instant, it is portrayed to seem instant to bystanders. For all practical purposes, it is instant.
> 3. A Kai is a the physical act of stopping chakra and then making it surge to break the genjutsu. By the time a Kai stops his chakra, Jiraiya is already mind raped.
> 4. Who says that Fukasaku is strong enough to overpower Tsukiyomi?



_1. Sure he does. He was tying in a Taijutsu batle with SM Naruto, which portrays his speed and reactions.
2. It took 1 second for Itachi to Tsukuyomi Kakashi. That is far from instant.
3. AKA disrupting chakra, correct? Pain was able to disrupt Kakashi's chakra almost instantly with the chakra rods. He stopped him mid swing of a Raikiri. 
4. All you need to do is surge more powerful chakra, unless your saying that Itachi puts all his chakra into the Tsukuyomi. Also, Shima is there to help. _


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 12, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Seconds, when did I imply otherwise?



ok seconds, itachi was just using a mental type attack, that was broken. how in the hell do you think he was suppose to react after having a mental attack broken?? wouldnt it put the user in some kind of mental stress.



> No, it does matter. He strained the Amaterasu eye and blinded it and not the other via using Amaterasu. Tsukuyomi would follow thusly



wut? TS was broken, it doesnt matter what eye it came from. there still some form of mental stress going on.






> No, she felt his presence. From a distance.
> 
> Here as well



so now you making jiriaya out to be karin in HM... gtfo 



> Point is: If you hear it, then you're frozen. And Itachi will hear it before he puts Susanoo up, which he doesn't use at the drop of a hat, y'know.



you dont understand ninjustu in the manga it appears..... all attacks use charka. it doesnt matter if its sound, taste, or smell. charka is being molded to create something. the frogs mold charka, and use sound as the attack. the shield cancels all charka attacks. itachi my hear the sound, but all the charka packed in the attack is nullified. what makes you think itachi wouldnt use susanoo in the drop of a dime??? it takes no prep time to use. and if he was put in a postition where he couldnt dodge or protect hisself he would use susanoo. but your right he wouldnt use it here because bushin feint prolly would already be in place.


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## Butt Hole lol (Jun 12, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yes, yes, he's so awesome and amazing, he can do ANYTHING!


This is just sad, you have to resort to being a troll and a jerk. Serously im fed up with people trying to downplay Itachi.



> Never mind even Orochimaru realized he was in a Genjutsu and broke it before he lost the sand.


Itachi used regular genjutsu on Orochimaru and he still lost his hand, that just shows how extremly hard it is just to break out of Itahci genjutsu's. Orochimaru has a 5 in genjutsu and is more adept then it then Jiraiya who only has a 3. Jiraiya himself admitted he is bad against genjutsu and data book supports this.




> Jiraiya ahs the intellect, the method and in Sage Mode, he's way more resistant


Itachi is smarter then Jiraiya and the databook supports this. Furthermore having intellect doesnt mean you are immune to genjutsu.




> Itachi has no counter to Yomi Numa, and? Jiraiya takes a handseal for it.


Prove Yomi Numa would work on Itachi



> You lie.



No you!



> He stated he doesn't use it because he's not a Genjutsu type, not the same thing. He stressed even with this, one has to know how to deal with and break it.


Jiriaya Stated he was weak against genjutsu. He isnt breaking out of Tsukuyomi and he would likely have a very hard time with just regular genjutsu from Itachi



> And Jiraiya is just as smart in many ays


Itachi is smarter thus he has the advantage in this fight.


> 'Much' smarter He's only .5 points above in intelligence.
> Shikamaru is smarter than anyone and he has Jiraiya's Genjutsu stat, so what? Some people are less talented in certain areas


nice camparison,Shikamaru is weak fodder campared to Jiraiya. He's admitted he's weak against genjutsu i dont see why he would be so resistant to it like you claim. we dont even know how much resistance HM offers against genjutsu.



> Oh, for...Jiraiya grew up with Uchiha around, knows about Itachi and saw him use Tsukuyomi.


Read the OP, and no he did not see Itachi's Tsukuyomi.



> He can read Itachi's movements from looking at his body.  And he has Pa and Ma attacking.


Jiriaya has no knowledge of the sharingan, read the op. If he has no knowledge then he wont be looking down at his body he would most definetly look into his eyes.



> And no, Yomi Numa worked fine on a Pain body. Databook says the size depends on how the user wants.


Proof Yomi numa worked on a pain body? your probably just ganna ignore this since your making stuff up.



> Plus, Jiraiya in HM is faster than Danzo or Sasuke by far.


He isnt much faster, Pains weaker body was able to react and match him in Taijutsu. Jiraiyas HM is no where as good as Naruto's SM.



> and Itachi has none on Hermit Mode. Normal Genjutsu is useless thanks to Sage mode as Pa and Ma can attack anyways.


Genjutsu can still work imo but if it doesnt Tsukuyomi would still work its pretty much instant thus jiraiya wont have time to break out.




> What does Itachi do about all those moves I mentioned? Non bullshit answers


What can Jiraiya do against Tsukuyomi,amaterasu, and Sasuno non bullshit answers please.



> No, Jiraiya's wasn't perfected. Nothing stated it trailed far behind. He has advantages Naruto didn't in it.


Wow...Its clear, very clear that Naruto's SM is far supperior to Jiraiya's, the frog guy faku said so himself.



> And Hungry Ghost and Jiraiya never fought in Taijutsu. Human Realm did. And Human Realm has shown superior speed to Itachi


Sasuke has shown more supperior speed then Human realm and Itachi is faster then sasuke, thus what you said is bs.




> and Shikamaru has a 3 in Genjutsu, but he easily dispelled Kabuto's on himself.


Kabuto genjutsu =/ Itahci genjutsu. Itachi is far supperior then Kabuto in genjutsu. Furthermore Itachi was able to defeat a genjutsu master with absolute ease.



> Jiraiya's three just means he doesn't use it. He's not weak against it and has a method for countering it. In Sage Mode, his genjutsu abilities rise dramatically.


Jiriaya has admitted he is weak against genjutsu. We dont know for sure how much protection HM offers for all we know it could be just sharingan level resistance.



> And gee, what stops Jiraiya from going into a barrier? And since this is HM Jiraiya...


Whats stopping Itahci from using sasuno?  



> Jiraiya makes a Yomi Numa the size of which that sunk the giant snake, makes it much deeper.


Yomi numa is only good on summons



> This is instant when the seal is made. The mud ensnares and sucks the victim under right away.


Chances that he gets stuck in Yomi numa are very unlikely.



> Jiraiya also makes kage bunshins to distract Itachi. He uses Kanbari senbon, Senpu Goemon, frog Croak, summons Hiro out of a 200 meter drop right above Itachi and Yomi Numa.


Jiraiya has never used Kage bushins in battle, its not his style. Furthermore he wont use kagebushins if hes in HM. Summons wont be helpful since Itachi can dispose of them by using genjutsu.



> 5/10 at BEST for Itachi, quit wanking him so much.



Im not wanking and tbh youve been wanking the most on this thread. And i actually think its more like 6/10 for Itachi but thats my opinion and you should respect it


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## Sanbi (Jun 12, 2010)

Not meaning to get into your debate, but why would Yomi Numa not work on Itachi?!??  Is he somehow immune to it or something?


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## Jinnobi (Jun 12, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _1. Sure he does. He was tying in a Taijutsu batle with SM Naruto, which portrays his speed and reactions.
> 2. It took 1 second for Itachi to Tsukuyomi Kakashi. That is far from instant.
> 3. AKA disrupting chakra, correct? Pain was able to disrupt Kakashi's chakra almost instantly with the chakra rods. He stopped him mid swing of a Raikiri.
> 4. All you need to do is surge more powerful chakra, unless your saying that Itachi puts all his chakra into the Tsukuyomi. Also, Shima is there to help. _




A Kai is not fast enough to stop Tsukiyomi. This has been stated.

Tsukiyomi didn't literally take a second to work. It was a figure of speech.

Disrupting chakra doesn't take place instantly. Neither does detecting it. By the time both have happened, Tsukiyomi has run its course.

Saying Fukasaku can overpower Itachi's genjutsu is speculation. We have no strong evidence either way.

Also: detecting chakra disruption is a mental process. Saying Fukasaku has good taijutsu skills ≠ him disrupting chakra instantly.


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## hmph (Jun 12, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Not meaning to get into your debate, but why would Yomi Numa not work on Itachi?!??  Is he somehow immune to it or something?



Because Itachi does not have the counters for it and so they want to shoe it into the corner with "prove it works", and then demand "prove he can survive MS." And then refuse to acknowledge any and all evidence that says the MS isn't an autowin against any ninja who doesn't have exactly whatever has been shown to be able to beat it in the manga. Like when some people claim you "need Raikage speed to dodge Amaterasu", its like saying you need Oro level speed to dodge a kunai because Oro dodged a kunai. In short: bullshit.

Also, heres a counter for Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu: smoke bomb. Ta-da!


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## Aoshi (Jun 12, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> A Kai is not fast enough to stop Tsukiyomi. This has been stated.
> 
> Tsukiyomi didn't literally take a second to work. It was a figure of speech.
> 
> ...



_Where has it been stated that Kai will not work on Tsukuyomi?

How was that a figure of speech? Any proof?

If Tsukuyomi takes 1 second, Fukasaku will have easily reacted to the chakra disruption, as shown by my evidence from the other post. Also, Pain disrupted Kakashi's chakra almost instantly.

How can it not? Jiraiya stated that to break a Genjutsu, you must send a stronger surge of chakra through the victims body. Unless your telling me Itachi can put more chakra into Jiraiya than both Ma and Pa at the same time can, then the Genjutsu can be broken.

DI you read my other post at all? Obviously to destroy Asura, Naruto had to react to the attack. After he reacted, he had to move in. This all happened in less than 1 second, before Pain could react. Obviously Naruto had to take at least half the time needed to move in, and that's a little amount of time than what it should be. This means that he must have reacted to the attack in a very short amount of time as well. Taijutsu is proportional to one's reactions. Fukasaku has equal Taijutsu to SM Naruto, and must therefore have equal reactions. With this in mind, you must remember that the Ni Dai Sennin have chakra sensing abilities as well. They will be able to detect Itachi's chakra in Jiraiya's body, and will therefore be able to react quickly._


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2010)

Jiraiya wins. In Sage Mode, his physical abilities far surpass Itachi, he's immune to most of Itachi's genjutsu, and all it would take is a good, solid punch to destroy Itachi.

Susano'o won't cut it. It couldn't tank a Kirin, so a Chou Odama Rasengan should smash right through it-Senjutsu + no Nature Chakra. Or Jiraiya could just sink it with Yomi Numa.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 12, 2010)

oMuerte said:


> Agree'd but that would give an opening to someone such as Itachi, Kakashi made it through and fainted after. However in SM I could be wrong and Jiraiya would recover much faster.


However, Kakashi did not have a strong physical constitute to compliment him in the fight. Jiriaya would probably take that head on, much in the same manner that Sasuke used MS Genjutsu on Killer Bee and he would just simply get up, much to Itachi's surprise.



oMuerte said:


> I haven't seen a scan or image of him breaking genjutsu even less a MS type. I could be wrong, you could be wrong.


He taught it to Naruto, however, as I have explained none of that would matter as long as he is in Sage Mode. 



oMuerte said:


> The problem is, this is a debate. Each takes a side and debates on which character would win. I'm going with Itachi due to Susanowoo, I actually hate Itachi and would love to see him be put down. There are couple of things I don't know, such as him actually making barriers. Didn't notice I made myself look like an Itachi fan-boy. lol


Unfortunately, my frustration from some others probably got meeted out against you in my previous post. I have picked Itachi for the same reasons, however, I also attempt to give Jiraiya his dues.


Jinnobi said:


> Tsukiyomi happens too quickly to break using a Kai - either your own or a partner.


I guess we won't get a clear answer on this until Sasuke fights Naruto, however, with Jiraiya he has two different individuals connected to him at the same time. The fusion Fukasaku spoke of allows him to connect to Jiraiya's chakra system and making any genjutsu fruitless, considering Tsukiyomi cannot be multi-casted.


Jinnobi said:


> 1. Mental trauma ≠ physical trauma. Even the biggest, toughest body-builders on earth are susceptible to Chinese water torture. Tsukiyomi attacks the mind.
> 2. Even if Tsukiyomi didn't outright kill Jiraiya, it would cripple him or at the very least disorient and slow him - enough for an easy Susano'o or Amaretsu kill.


We don't have a chart to compare their mental toughness, however, they both have the same number in intelligence? Regardless, Kakashi was able to stand after getting blasted by Tsukiyomi, odds are a SM powered Jiraiya would be able to do so as well, assuming the technique was actually effective.


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya wins. In Sage Mode, his physical abilities far surpass Itachi, he's immune to most of Itachi's genjutsu, and all it would take is a good, solid punch to destroy Itachi.
> 
> Susano'o won't cut it.* It couldn't tank a Kirin*, so a Chou Odama Rasengan should smash right through it-Senjutsu + no Nature Chakra. Or Jiraiya could just sink it with Yomi Numa.


It did tank Kirin, otherwise Itachi would have died on the spot.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 12, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _Where has it been stated that Kai will not work on Tsukuyomi?
> 
> How was that a figure of speech? Any proof?
> 
> ...



 no kai here buddy


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> This is just sad, you have to resort to being a troll and a jerk. Serously im fed up with people trying to downplay Itachi.


Nobody's downplaying Itachi. You're overhyping him.





> Itachi used regular genjutsu on Orochimaru and he still lost his hand, that just shows how extremly hard it is just to break out of Itahci genjutsu's. Orochimaru has a 5 in genjutsu and is more adept then it then Jiraiya who only has a 3. Jiraiya himself admitted he is bad against genjutsu and data book supports this.


There is no proof Orochimaru was adept with Genjutsu then.
And you lie: Jiraiya just said he doesn't USE Genjutsu. He said you still have to know how to fight it.
ORochimaru was able to break it and Shima and Fukasaku help a LOT.




> Itachi is smarter then Jiraiya and the databook supports this. Furthermore having intellect doesnt mean you are immune to genjutsu.


It helps a lot. 'Intelligence' is also a rather varied term. Itachi and Jiraiya have not shown much a difference in battle smarts. Hell, Jiraiya's come up with better strategy.




> Prove Yomi Numa would work on Itachi


Does he have raiton? No.
Does he have any special immunity to it? No.




> Jiriaya Stated he was weak against genjutsu. He isnt breaking out of Tsukuyomi and he would likely have a very hard time with just regular genjutsu from Itachi


stop lying. Jiraiya said he doesn't USE it because he's not a genjutsu type.
HM takes his abilities up a lot.



> Itachi is smarter thus he has the advantage in this fight.
> 
> nice camparison,Shikamaru is weak fodder campared to Jiraiya. He's admitted he's weak against genjutsu i dont see why he would be so resistant to it like you claim. we dont even know how much resistance HM offers against genjutsu.


I'm getting sick of pointing out how you're wrong. We know HM bolsters his defenses to Genjutsu and Shikamaru is an absolute genius which is where his strength lies.
Jiraiya only said he doesn't use Genjutsu. That's different



> Read the OP, and no he did not see Itachi's Tsukuyomi.


Yes, he did. He saw him use it on Sasuke



> Jiriaya has no knowledge of the sharingan, read the op. If he has no knowledge then he wont be looking down at his body he would most definetly look into his eyes.


he knows he has the Sharingan, case closed. And Shima and Fukasaku would know.



> Proof Yomi numa worked on a pain body? your probably just ganna ignore this since your making stuff up.



Right here. See how Human Realm is trapped?



> He isnt much faster, Pains weaker body was able to react and match him in Taijutsu. Jiraiyas HM is no where as good as Naruto's SM.[/Quot]
> Human Realm is the fastest body we've seen and blocked one punch thanks to Shared Vision. All HG did was absorb the ninjutsu he used.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 12, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Ohh Please Susano'o is not the Strongest Jutsu we have Seen to date. Pain Rikudo is Far Better then It, Gedou Mazou Seems Better to me, Sage Mode is better then it, Edo Tensi is better then it, Madara and Minato's S/T Ninjutsu is better then it, Tsukuyomi is better then it, Shodai's Bijuu Control is better then it, Madara's Kyuubi Summoning and Control is better then it, and so on
> 
> Susano'o is a good jutsu, but its main advantage is in Defense.



I don't know if you can consider Pain rikodou a jutsu.
Gedou mazou seems like shit to me.
Sage mode doesn't even compare.
Edo tensei is circumstantial, depends on who is raised from the dead.
Minato's stj isn't better, neither is Madara's. Tsukiyomi ain't better if you'd ask me, since Susano'o is a multitask jutsu where is Tsukiyomi isn't.
Shodai's bijuu control ? We didn't even see it. Madara's kyuubi summoning and control are traits of MS they are not jutsus. 
So I disagree with everything you said.



Lightysnake said:


> Because avoiding it is impossible? When Jiraiya's very capable of doing so or killing Itachi before it even comes into play.



In most cases yeah, I'd say that. It is impossible unless you flee, and in Jiraiya's case(actually in most cases) I would say it is impossible to kill Itachi before it comes to play. The likehood of Itachi killing Jiraiya before Susano'o comes into play is more likely.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> It did tank Kirin, otherwise Itachi would have died on the spot.


Instead, Itachi got burned, lost his cape, and was coughing up blood. Susano'o merely shielded him from most of the blast, not all, and collapsed. Itachi needed to completely reform it.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 12, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> I guess we won't get a clear answer on this until Sasuke fights Naruto, however, with Jiraiya he has two different individuals connected to him at the same time. The fusion Fukasaku spoke of allows him to connect to Jiraiya's chakra system and making any genjutsu fruitless, considering Tsukiyomi cannot be multi-casted.



I wouldn't go as far as to say that it makes genjutsu "fruitless" - even though Fukasaku and Ma can break normal genjutsu, it takes them a little while. This time can be exploited by Itachi. As for Tsukiyomi: it can only be broken by the Sharigan. Partners using an Kai or a self-used Kai don't work because it's simply too fast.



> We don't have a chart to compare their mental toughness, however, they both have the same number in intelligence? *Regardless, Kakashi was able to stand after getting blasted by Tsukiyomi*, odds are a SM powered Jiraiya would be able to do so as well, assuming the technique was actually effective.



Both Itachi and Kakashi have a higher intelligence score and genjutsu score than Jiraiya. 

Bolded: Itachi wasn't going for a kill. In fact, Kakashi was wondering why he *wasn't* dead.

Also: the 72 hours of torture were arbitrary. Itachi could have chosen a different amount of time.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 12, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Instead, Itachi got burned, lost his cape, and was coughing up blood. Susano'o merely shielded him from most of the blast, not all, and collapsed. Itachi needed to completely reform it.



This isn't possible. 

If Kirin broke through Susano'o, it would have incinerated all of Itachi's clothes and electrocuted him to death. You don't get your robe completely burned off but your undergarments are fine. There isn't any "partially" getting hit with lightning. You don't cough up blood when getting hit. And as shown before, Itachi's burns were from Sasuke's Katons. He was also covered in mud. He collapsed because he was dying of a flesh-eating disease.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't know if you can consider Pain rikodou a jutsu.
> Gedou mazou seems like shit to me.
> Sage mode doesn't even compare.
> Edo tensei is circumstantial, depends on who is raised from the dead.
> ...


Except it isn't. HM Jriaiya can move fast enough to vanish from Pain's direct line of sight and can use bunshins as a distraction. Any of the moves listed will kill Itachi without Susanoo.

Itachi has little chance of killing Jiraiya without it. And Jiraiya can still avoid it for the minute it takes





Jinnobi said:


> This isn't possible.
> 
> If Kirin broke through Susano'o, it would have incinerated all of Itachi's clothes and electrocuted him to death. You don't get your robe completely burned off but your undergarments are fine. There isn't any "partially" getting hit with lightning. You don't cough up blood when getting hit. And as shown before, Itachi's burns were from Sasuke's Katons. He was also covered in mud. He collapsed because he was dying of a flesh-eating disease.



so it partially broke through. Itachi's burns were on his arm, he had new ones all over from Kirin. His robes were incinerating and being slammed into the ground like that can make you cough up blood.

You're wrong.


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## Aoshi (Jun 12, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> no kai here buddy



_This you read the manga page fully? If you did, you would have noticed that the reason Kai does not work is because Tsukuyomi is almost instant. I already proved that Fukasaku has enough reaction time to use Kai to disrupt Jiraiya's chakra.  _


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## Butt Hole lol (Jun 12, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Nobody's downplaying Itachi. You're overhyping him.



No im not and no one is is overhyping him people like you just claim Jiraiya is immune to genjutsu which is he isnt.



> There is no proof Orochimaru was adept with Genjutsu then.
> And you lie: Jiraiya just said he doesn't USE Genjutsu. He said you still have to know how to fight it.
> ORochimaru was able to break it and Shima and Fukasaku help a LOT..



He still had a 5 in genjutsu and was the genous out of the sannin. Jiraiya is weak against genjutsu he said so when he was telling Naruto, and the 3 he has pretty much proves it. Itahci can easiyl cast genjutsu on shina and fukasaku to disable them. Jiraiya has no answer to Tsukuyomi especially when he has *no knowledge on the sharingan!*




> It helps a lot. 'Intelligence' is also a rather varied term. Itachi and Jiraiya have not shown much a difference in battle smarts. Hell, Jiraiya's come up with better strategy.


Itachi's genjutsu are so realistic i doubt Jiraiya will even know. By the time he realizes he's in one he needs to form the kai and break out by then Itachi could possibly rip off a limb.




> Does he have raiton? No.
> Does he have any special immunity to it? No.


He is more then able to dodge it, he has sharingan prediction remember?



> stop lying. Jiraiya said he doesn't USE it because he's not a genjutsu type.
> HM takes his abilities up a lot.



Not by much the only thing that is noticably improved is his rasengans. 
again Jiraiya HM no where near as good as naruto's SM.




> I'm getting sick of pointing out how you're wrong. We know HM bolsters his defenses to Genjutsu and Shikamaru is an absolute genius which is where his strength lies.


we do not know how much resistance he gets againsts genjutsu in HM, he's not immune to it especially not to Tsukuyomi .



> Jiraiya only said he doesn't use Genjutsu. That's different.


yes and he also said he's weak against genjutsu. 



> he knows he has the Sharingan, case closed. And Shima and Fukasaku would know.


Read the OP no knowledge on sharingan, case closed 


> Right here. See how Human Realm is trapped?.


It barley sucked him in and Itahci is much faster then human realm and has the sharingan to predict so getting caught is unlikely. And if he does get caught he can use sasuno to free himself instantly, and potentially pierce him before he can dodge and then its game over. And since Jiraiya has no knowledge on MS or sharingan in this scenerio the odds are against him.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> No im not and no one is is overhyping him people like you just claim Jiraiya is immune to genjutsu which is he isnt.


No one said he's immune. Just that he can break it.
He may be immune in Sage Mode, but that's it




> He still had a 5 in genjutsu and was the genous out of the sannin. Jiraiya is weak against genjutsu he said so when he was telling Naruto, and the 3 he has pretty much proves it. Itahci can easiyl cast genjutsu on shina and fukasaku to disable them. Jiraiya has no answer to Tsukuyomi especially when he has *no knowledge on the sharingan!*


That's it, I'm sick of this: 
Show me the scan where he says he is weak to genjutsu or shut up and get out. He said he *DOESN'T USE IT BECAUSE HE'S NOT A GENJUTSU TYE* get it through your skull. He said he still knew how to break it. 
Shima and Fukasaku are Genjutsu masters to boot and WILL know of the Sharingan. 




> Itachi's genjutsu are so realistic i doubt Jiraiya will even know. By the time he realizes he's in one he needs to form the kai and break out by then Itachi could possibly rip off a limb.


Naruto realized it back then. Shima and Fukasaku can attack Itachi to break it, or just feel the change in his chakra as they[re sensors.
And Jiraiya can still break it.



> He is more then able to dodge it, he has sharingan prediction remember?


So? Yomi Numa turns the ground beneath him into the swamp. He can't predict that 



> Not by much the only thing that is noticably improved is his rasengans.
> again Jiraiya HM no where near as good as naruto's SM.


It's stated Sage Mode raises your strength, speed, durability, etc. We saw an improvement of all thosefrom Jiraiya 



> we do not know how much resistance he gets againsts genjutsu in HM, he's not immune to it especially not to Tsukuyomi .


his chakra is constantly disrupted with natural energy, ergo...



> yes and he also said he's weak against genjutsu.


No he didn't. He said he wasn't good at USING it.



> Read the OP no knowledge on sharingan, case closed
> 
> It barley sucked him in and Itahci is much faster then human realm and has the sharingan to predict so getting caught is unlikely. And if he does get caught he can use sasuno to free himself instantly, and potentially pierce him before he can dodge and then its game over. And since Jiraiya has no knowledge on MS or sharingan in this scenerio the odds are against him.


It 'barely sucked him in?' Jiraiya only trapped him. The databook states clearly that Jiraiya can control the size and depth of the swamp. If Susanoo's there, what then? First Itachi drowns in mud?

You have no idea what you're talking about.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 12, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _This you read the manga page fully? If you did, you would have noticed that the reason Kai does not work is because Tsukuyomi is almost instant. I already proved that Fukasaku has enough reaction time to use Kai to disrupt Jiraiya's chakra.  _



exactly where did you prove that at..... scans of Fukasku being faster, and having better reaction time than kakashi, chiyo, sakura or naruto?? for some reason you seem to believe that because fukasku being a sage > high lvl ninjas


P.S. Lighty; jiriaya is not the genjust type period. he taught naruto a chunnin lvl technique to escape genjustu, which is kai. you cant kai out of every genjustu. case in point. shika against the sound chick. he had to use pain to break cause once caught in that kind of genjustu kai is useless. also the toads were never stated to be genjustu master. they used one genjustu. and that genjustu is one they dont use on a regular bases.

P.S.S stop over hyping jiriaya battle tactics and 'Intelligence' .Jiriaya had to brain storm with 2 other toads with hundreds years of exp, against his ex student. if anything he should of figured out that nagato was controlling the drones a lot sooner IMHO. i mean think about.... jiriaya encounter everyone of pain bodies before, and he was yahiko teacher as well. ....and jiriaya in HM is not a senor type, nor is ma and pa. they may have techs to sense ppl, but that doesnt = sensor type


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 12, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> I wouldn't go as far as to say that it makes genjutsu "fruitless" - even though Fukasaku and Ma can break normal genjutsu, it takes them a little while. This time can be exploited by Itachi. As for Tsukiyomi: it can only be broken by the Sharigan. Partners using an Kai or a self-used Kai don't work because it's simply too fast.


I'm simply stating that Tsukiyomi, if it is attempted by Itachi would not work because the conditions for breaking a genjutsu are already met before it is cast. Furthermore, there are three different chakra systems at play not just one, so in order to effectively cast Tsukiyomi, he would have to do it to all three which I don't think he can.



Jinnobi said:


> Both Itachi and Kakashi have a higher intelligence score and genjutsu score than Jiraiya.
> 
> Bolded: Itachi wasn't going for a kill. In fact, Kakashi was wondering why he *wasn't* dead.
> 
> Also: the 72 hours of torture were arbitrary. Itachi could have chosen a different amount of time.


The intelligence is negligible because it's only a difference of a half. However, the genjutsu refers to casting and utilizing it, not breaking it. Breaking simply requires a massive release of chakra, something Jiraiya in SM or not is obviously capable of doing, due to his large reserves.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 12, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> I'm simply stating that Tsukiyomi, if it is attempted by Itachi would not work because *the conditions for breaking a genjutsu are already met before it is cast.* _Furthermore, there are three different chakra systems at play not just one, so in order to effectively cast Tsukiyomi, he would have to do it to all three which I don't think he can. _



*The frogs are adding chakra, not disrupting it.*

_The only brain he needs to genjutsu is Jiraiya's._





> The intelligence is negligible because it's only a difference of a half. However, the genjutsu refers to casting and utilizing it, not breaking it. *Breaking simply requires a massive release of chakra, something Jiraiya in SM or not is obviously capable of doing, due to his large reserves*



He cannot break Tsukiyomi. And by the time he realizes he's in a genjutsu, it may already be too late to break. See: Deidara.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 12, 2010)

Ra said:


> Restrictions: None
> 
> Location: Where killerbee fought
> 
> ...



How does this make it fair for Jiraiya? This means he doesn't know of its Genjutsu capabilities.


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## Sanbi (Jun 12, 2010)

Because the OP is clearly biased in favor of Itachi, so I just ignore the stipulations.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 12, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Because the OP is clearly biased in favor of Itachi, so I just ignore the stipulations.



As the OP is apparently bias in favour of Itachi...you *ignore* the limitations set in the OP...that just discredits the points you make here if this implies that you're not (or don't plan to) abide by the limitations the OP set.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 12, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> exactly where did you prove that at..... scans of Fukasku being faster, and having better reaction time than kakashi, chiyo, sakura or naruto?? for some reason you seem to believe that because fukasku being a sage > high lvl ninjas


Fukasaku doesn't need pure speed. His attacks, however, ARE fast.



> P.S. Lighty; jiriaya is not the genjust type period. he taught naruto a chunnin lvl technique to escape genjustu, which is kai. you cant kai out of every genjustu. case in point. shika against the sound chick. he had to use pain to break cause once caught in that kind of genjustu kai is useless. also the toads were never stated to be genjustu master. they used one genjustu. and that genjustu is one they dont use on a regular bases.


Actually, you need power and intellect to break it. Which Naruto, at the time, lacked.
Jiraiya is not a genjutsu type. He doesn't need to be to break it, any more than Kabuto needs to be taijutsu oriented to fight Taijutsu.
And Fukasaku and Shima use an incredibly powerful Genjutsu and said it was the 'strongest one' they had, implying others.
Yes, that makes them masters



> P.S.S stop over hyping jiriaya battle tactics and 'Intelligence' .Jiriaya had to brain storm with 2 other toads with hundreds years of exp, against his ex student. if anything he should of figured out that nagato was controlling the drones a lot sooner IMHO. i mean think about.... jiriaya encounter everyone of pain bodies before, and he was yahiko teacher as well. ....and jiriaya in HM is not a senor type, nor is ma and pa. they may have techs to sense ppl, but that doesnt = sensor type


yeah, against the Rinnegan. Against techniques they'd never seen and were a mystery, involving things with multiple bodies. How the hell could he realize Nagato was controlling the bodies sooner when he thought the Fuma Path WAS Nagato due to how he responded?
and Ma and Pa are sensors. They're shown feeling the Pains when they arrive in Konoha without any seals




Jinnobi said:


> *The frogs are adding chakra, not disrupting it.*
> 
> _The only brain he needs to genjutsu is Jiraiya's._
> 
> ...


Jiraiyas: more experienced and stronger than a 9 year old insane terrorist


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## Sanbi (Jun 12, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As the OP is apparently bias in favour of Itachi...you *ignore* the limitations set in the OP...that just discredits the points you make here if this implies that you're not (or don't plan to) abide by the limitations the OP set.


I still answer the thread by the limitations set by the OP, I just usually also answer the thread by normal limitations, as this is just the thread where all Jiraiya vs Itachi debates end up. 

So I answer by this OP, but also by another, since this is the Itachi vs Jiraiya debate belongs, and I don't feel like making a thread and having it merged with this one.

So really, I'm not discrediting my points.  If this is the universal Jiraiya vs Itachi thread, and I am still replying to that I'm not discreaditing the debate.

Oh, and do you not think no knowledge favors Itachi? Oh, and IIRC Ra, formerly known as GrandKiarto77, argued that Itachi could beat all three Sannin and Pain and was clearly an Itachi tard, so obviously he is biased.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> *The frogs are adding chakra, not disrupting it.*
> 
> _The only brain he needs to genjutsu is Jiraiya's._
> 
> He cannot break Tsukiyomi. And by the time he realizes he's in a genjutsu, it may already be too late to break. See: Deidara.


An addition in this case, is a clear disruption because something from a different pool is being adding. If Jiraiya was only turning his own stamina into chakra and maintain sage mode such as Naruto, that maybe a valuable point and I would agree. However, since he is physically connected with a different species, we cannot ignore this fact.

And if it's regular genjutsu, he wouldn't need to realize it, Fukasaku or Shima would detect the change since they are separating between the silence nad movement aspect.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 13, 2010)

@sanbi - if you need jiriaiya to have full knowledge in order to win than that should tell hes not stronger


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

> An addition in this case, is a clear disruption because something from a different pool is being adding. If Jiraiya was only turning his own stamina into chakra and maintain sage mode such as Naruto, that maybe a valuable point and I would agree. However, since he is physically connected with a different species, we cannot ignore this fact.




I don't think this counts as making him immune to genjutsu. The frogs are adding chakra to his system, but it's not foreign per se - as you implied yourself, they are connected. It's not shocking him like a Kai.



> And if it's regular genjutsu, he wouldn't need to realize it, Fukasaku or Shima would detect the change since they are separating between the silence nad movement aspect.



If Jiraiya is caught in a regular genjutsu and the frogs do too, what happens?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 13, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> @sanbi - if you need jiriaiya to have full knowledge in order to win than that should tell hes not stronger



From the series, Jiraiya does have knowledge


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## Sanbi (Jun 13, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> @sanbi - if you need jiriaiya to have full knowledge in order to win than that should tell hes not stronger


If Itachi needs no knowledge to win that shows he isn't stronger. With manga knowledge, which is canon, he can win. With no knowledge it would never happen, and if people need to give that to Itachi to justify his win it shows who is stronger.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> I don't think this counts as making him immune to genjutsu. The frogs are adding chakra to his system, but it's not foreign per se - as you implied yourself, they are connected. It's not shocking him like a Kai.


The trick there is Itachi would be forced to utilize a multi-person genjutsu and I haven't seen him do that so far. I'm not saying it's out of the realm of possibility, however he hasn't shown to.


Jinnobi said:


> If Jiraiya is caught in a regular genjutsu and the frogs do too, what happens?


Assuming it's possible, I pray they realize it's a genjutsu. However, against Itachi, it doesn't really matter, he hasn't shown the ability to multicast a genjutsu.


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## SM00TH38 (Jun 13, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> From the series, Jiraiya does have knowledge





Sanbi said:


> If Itachi needs no knowledge to win that shows he isn't stronger. With manga knowledge, which is canon, he can win. With no knowledge it would never happen, and if people need to give that to Itachi to justify his win it shows who is stronger.



from the manga jiriaya's knowledge on itachi seems to be limited IMO, some of the stuff im reading here is as if jiriaya has readers knowledge. which he doesnt. the only thing that jiriaya should really know IMO is that he is an uchiha with a sharigan. not all this hoopla about how to avoid amatasu and to not look in his eyes etc. etc.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 13, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> I still answer the thread by the limitations set by the OP, I just usually also answer the thread by normal limitations, as this is just the thread where all Jiraiya vs Itachi debates end up.
> 
> So I answer by this OP, but also by another, since this is the Itachi vs Jiraiya debate belongs, and I don't feel like making a thread and having it merged with this one.
> 
> ...



So you answer the 'normal' Jiraiya v Itachi debate in conjunction to the limitations set by the OP despite the OP not having these 'normal' stipulations.

I doubt it'll be merged if the conditions are...different. :/

The OP doesn't state that this is a universal Jiraiya v Itachi thread, however.

But does that really mean for such reasons you deviate from the original stipulations?


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## Aoshi (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> I don't think this counts as making him immune to genjutsu. The frogs are adding chakra to his system, but it's not foreign per se - as you implied yourself, they are connected. It's not shocking him like a Kai.
> 
> 
> 
> If Jiraiya is caught in a regular genjutsu and the frogs do too, what happens?



_When has Itachi demonstrated the ability to Genjutsu more than one person at a time? How is the chakra not foreign if the chakra is not coming from Jiraiya?_


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Except it isn't. HM Jriaiya can move fast enough to vanish from Pain's direct line of sight


He hasn't done such thing, ever.



> and can use bunshins as a distraction. Any of the moves listed will kill Itachi without Susanoo.



A kunai to the throat is capable of killing Jiraiya, it doesn't mean all it takes for Itachi to kill Jiraiya is a kunai.

Same with Jiraiya, the chances of him landing those attacks are highly unlikely, especially before Itachi can land his attacks on him, since he is you know a faster jutsu executer and has faster techniques and alot smarter than Jiraiya.




> Itachi has little chance of killing Jiraiya without it. And Jiraiya can still avoid it for the minute it takes


I completely disagree, Susano'O isn't necessary to use against Jiraiya, and Jiraiya cannot avoid it, without fleeing the battlefield which counts as a loss anyways.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> The trick there is Itachi would be forced to utilize a multi-person genjutsu and I haven't seen him do that so far. I'm not saying it's out of the realm of possibility, however he hasn't shown to.



Kabuto, Kurenai and Kakashi and SM Jiraiya have used multi-person genjutsu. Do you honestly believe Itachi - of all people - can't? He's not limited to Sharigan techniques you know. Besides, Kakashi used the Sharigan to genjutsu several people at once.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> How is the chakra not foreign if the chakra is not coming from Jiraiya?



All their chakra systems become combined. But the problem is that a Kai isn't simply adding foreign chakra. Your partner must surge their chakra into you. This is something that isn't happening to Tsukiyomi, because by the time the surge of chakra is added the effect is over - that is, assuming that that your partner realizes your dead first.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 13, 2010)

With the summons i think jiraiya takes this


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## Aoshi (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> All their chakra systems become combined. But the problem is that a Kai isn't simply adding foreign chakra. Your partner must surge their chakra into you. This is something that isn't happening to Tsukiyomi, because by the time the surge of chakra is added the effect is over - that is, assuming that that your partner realizes your dead first.



_How do their chakra systems become combined? So if Neji block Jiraiya's chakra points, Fukasaku and Shima's chakra system's will be blocked as well? As I already pointed out in my previous post, which you have still not responded to, Fukasaku will indeed be able to react to the effects of Tsukuyomi. _


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## Sanbi (Jun 13, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So you answer the 'normal' Jiraiya v Itachi debate in conjunction to the limitations set by the OP despite the OP not having these 'normal' stipulations.


Sometimes, but yes.



> I doubt it'll be merged if the conditions are...different. :/


The only difference would be the knowledge portion, and I don't think that would warrant a new HM Jiraiya vs Itachi thread, when we have one with this many replies.



> The OP doesn't state that this is a universal Jiraiya v Itachi thread, however.


This is the only one where it can be argued so......



> But does that really mean for such reasons you deviate from the original stipulations?


I still reply to the stipulations, I just also argue different scenarios.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 13, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> The only difference would be the knowledge portion, and I don't think that would warrant a new HM Jiraiya vs Itachi thread, when we have one with this many replies.



But then you'd be taking this one off-topic if some of the replies are due to OT stipulations.



> This is the only one where it can be argued so......



Under the set limitations, not with them ignored.



> I still reply to the stipulations, I just also argue different scenarios.



Different scenarios within the stipulation or not?


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _How do their chakra systems become combined? So if Neji block Jiraiya's chakra points, Fukasaku and Shima's chakra system's will be blocked as well? As I already pointed out in my previous post, which you have still not responded to, Fukasaku will indeed be able to react to the effects of Tsukuyomi. _



In absolutely no way Fukasaku able to respond to Tsukiyomi, either in pure theory or based on feats.


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## Aoshi (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> In absolutely no way Fukasaku able to respond to Tsukiyomi, either in pure theory or based on feats.



_Great argument.... Way to just deny my argument without any evidence... Is there a reason you don't believe he could react?_


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _Great argument.... Way to just deny my argument without any evidence... Is there a reason you don't believe he could react?_



Because there are clear manga statements that assert without ambiguity that Tsukiyomi can't be broken with a Kai by a partner or yourself.

Because it defies common sense - Fukasaku can't detect Tsukiyomi and perform a Kai before Tsukiyomi has run its course.

Because in pure theory, its impossible to prevent any damage - in order to break something 
is must be in effect. Therefore at least ~0.00001... seconds of Tsukiyomi will be suffered by Jiraiya -- and since the control of time is in Itachi's possession, he could in pure theory speed up time so that ~0.00001... seconds of Tsukiyomi inflicts lethal mental damage.


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## Sanbi (Jun 13, 2010)

I don't feel like arguing this with you Munboy. This is the HM Jiraiya vs Itachi debate, and I debate that, whether under the set conditions or not.

I'm not going to make another HM Jiraiya vs Itachi thread with one difference when I can just debate it here.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Kabuto, Kurenai and Kakashi and SM Jiraiya have used multi-person genjutsu. Do you honestly believe Itachi - of all people - can't? He's not limited to Sharigan techniques you know. Besides, Kakashi used the Sharigan to genjutsu several people at once.


Well if he didn't show it, then he can't. I'm just playing by the rules.


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## Kisame (Jun 13, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Well if he didn't show it, then he can't. I'm just playing by the rules.



Itachi can multi tsukiyomi cause kakashi told kurenai and asuma to close their eyes when itachi told them he will use it.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 13, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He hasn't done such thing, ever.




If you're going to assert something, know what you're talking about.
You can make a point about the smoke, but...

Pain saw the smoke bomb



> A kunai to the throat is capable of killing Jiraiya, it doesn't mean all it takes for Itachi to kill Jiraiya is a kunai.
> 
> Same with Jiraiya, the chances of him landing those attacks are highly unlikely, especially before Itachi can land his attacks on him, since he is you know a faster jutsu executer and has faster techniques and alot smarter than Jiraiya.


Except this is Sage Mode, where Jiraiya is significantly faster. Oh, and Itachi's only non MS ninjutsu aren't anything to write home about. A...fireball. A suiton requiring a source...

See, an issue is in Sage Mode? A kunai isn't going to cut it. At all.

And given the punishment Jiraiya can take?




> I completely disagree, Susano'O isn't necessary to use against Jiraiya, and Jiraiya cannot avoid it, without fleeing the battlefield which counts as a loss anyways.



Sure he can. He just has to dodge the sword. Given his speed, that isn't hard. and he can sink Itachi regardless of it anyways by turning the ground directly beneath Itachi into a mile deep swamp. 

Itachi has no way to win against SM Jiraiya without MS. He has no real way against Jiraiya without MS in base anyways. Jiraiya's stronger, nearly as fast, has much better stamina, can break his genjutsu, has better and more varied ninjutsu, has better summons, can spam Kage bunshins unlike Itachi. 

In Hermit Mode, his jutsu are more practical, he's considerably faster and stronger, etc


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## Kisame (Jun 13, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Well if he didn't show it, then he can't. I'm just playing by the rules.



Itachi can multi tsukiyomi cause kakashi told kurenai and asuma to close their eyes when itachi told them he will use it.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Well if he didn't show it, then he can't. I'm just playing by the rules.



By that logic, Orochimaru can't use genjutsu at all and Guy can't Shushin.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 13, 2010)

Yeah, because he could do that to ANY of them. Not that he could do it at once.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Sure he can. He just has to dodge the sword. Given his speed, that isn't hard.



Itachi struck Orochimaru so quickly that he didn't even mentally process the event until he was skewered. That speed is far faster than any SM Jiraiya feat, and excludes the use of Shushin: how does one perform a technique to dodge a blow that happens faster than one can mentally prepare for? It's like trying to Shushin away from a bullet.





> and he can sink Itachi regardless of it anyways by turning the ground directly beneath Itachi into a mile deep swamp.



Itachi reads his hand signs and copies/reacts accordingly. Good luck making a mile deep swamp.



> Itachi has no way to win against SM Jiraiya without MS. He has no real way against Jiraiya without MS in base anyways. Jiraiya's stronger, nearly as fast, has much better stamina, can break his genjutsu, has better and more varied ninjutsu, has better summons, can spam Kage bunshins unlike Itachi.



I think normal sharigan would do.



> In Hermit Mode, his jutsu are more practical, he's considerably faster and stronger, etc



I've seen very little evidence that SM boosts speed significantly barring super-shushin


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, because he could do that to ANY of them. Not that he could do it at once.



I've never heard of a genjutsu technique that only effects one opponent - save Izagani, which isn't an offensive technique.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> By that logic, Orochimaru can't use genjutsu at all and Guy can't Shushin.



In the battledome Orochimaru cannot. Plain and simple.



Jinnobi said:


> I've never heard of a genjutsu technique that only effects one opponent - save Izagani, which isn't an offensive technique.



I have. ALL of Itachi's genjutsu.

1. Itachi uses tsukuyomi on Kakashi but Kurenai & Asuma were there
2. Itachi uses finger genjutsu on Naruto but it does not affect Chiyo and Sakura
3. Itachi uses genjutsu on Kakashi's clone, it does not affect the rest of his group


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 13, 2010)

With No sharingan knowledge for Jiraiya he will be  one shotted by tsukuyomi.With Sharingan knowledge-Jiraiya will try to not looking in Itachi's eyes and he will be one shotted by Amaterasu.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> In the battledome Orochimaru cannot. Plain and simple.



rather arbitrary, since he has a 5 in genjutsu in the databook - meaning his mastery of genjutsu is extensive.

Oh, and I suppose Guy can't Shushin.


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## Kai (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> rather arbitrary, since he has a 5 in genjutsu in the databook - meaning his mastery of genjutsu is extensive.


The extent can't be quantified, so by battledome default he can't do any genjutsu outside of feats.



			
				Jinnobi said:
			
		

> Oh, and I suppose Guy can't Shushin.


Gai can shunshin. He's shown it on multiple occasions. It isn't all just talk.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> rather arbitrary, since he has a 5 in genjutsu in the databook - meaning his mastery of genjutsu is extensive.
> 
> Oh, and I suppose Guy can't Shushin.



It is not arbitrary. In the battledome, the rules exclude any jutsu a character has never shown. We can't just say that Jiraiya could use Jirobo's chakra draining dome because he uses doton. That is bullshit. In the library, Orochimaru can use genjutsu but not here


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## Lightysnake (Jun 13, 2010)

Didn't Orochimaru use some genjutsu on people of them dying at times or am I remembering wrong?


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## Senjuclan (Jun 13, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Didn't Orochimaru use some genjutsu on people of them dying at times or am I remembering wrong?



It was simply killing intent. Sasuke used his sharingan after that and said it was not a genjutsu


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## Lightysnake (Jun 13, 2010)

And with Kakashi?


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## Sanbi (Jun 13, 2010)

That wasn't a genjutsu, it was some kind of paralyzing jutsu, I think an ANBU used it on a tiger in the FoD.

*Edit:* Whoops different thing,


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> In the battledome Orochimaru cannot. Plain and simple.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Every time that Itachi used genjutsu he was playing around with his opponents. He never had a good reason to use an AoE genjutsu.


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## Aoshi (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Every time that Itachi used genjutsu he was playing around with his opponents. He never had a good reason to use an AoE genjutsu.



_What kind of argument is that? Is there any proof he was playing around? Even if he was playing around, he has still not shown a Genjutsu that effects numerous people. _


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 13, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> Itachi can multi tsukiyomi cause kakashi told kurenai and asuma to close their eyes when itachi told them he will use it.


He told them to close their eyes because he knew the Mangekyou Sharingan was coming and he knew that only a sharingan would be able to put some, if at all any resistance. 


Jinnobi said:


> By that logic, Orochimaru can't use genjutsu at all and Guy can't Shushin.


It's as the man stated above, I had a hard time adjusting to that rule too. But it makes sense though, because then everyone would automatically attribute characteristics to their favorite characters. Such as the tard above me.


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## Soul (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Oh, and I suppose Guy can't Shushin.






Gai using Shunshin has even happened in the manga.
Why would he be unable to use it?


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## Sanbi (Jun 13, 2010)

Why would you claim Gai can't use Shunshin? That is nothing like Itachi using a genjutsu that claims more then one victim.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

Guy is a bad example.

I understand where everyone is coming from, but I think it's kind of retarded to think that THE master of genjutsu doesn't know any AoE genjutsu at all - even though lesser "experts" such as Kurenai and Kakashi can and did.


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## Sanbi (Jun 13, 2010)

He hasn't shown it, simple as that. Just because he is the best at genjutsu doesn't mean he knows all genjutsu.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 13, 2010)

They said the possessor of the Rin'negan knows all jutsu, that wasn't obviously the case.


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## Angoobo (Jun 13, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> They said the possessor of the Rin'negan knows all jutsu, that wasn't obviously the case.



Actually, Nagato knew all ninjutsu
Anyway, Itachi has never been stated to be 'the master of genjutsu'(i still think Toka Senju is the real master), plus genjutsu is useless with both Pa and Ma on his shoulders.


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## Soul (Jun 13, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Actually, Nagato knew all ninjutsu



False


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## Lightysnake (Jun 13, 2010)

Yeah, he just presumably knew a complete ton. But 'all' is next to impossible.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> He hasn't shown it, simple as that. Just because he is the best at genjutsu doesn't mean he knows all genjutsu.



You hardly need to know ALL genjutsu to know one AoE ability. 

Kabuto has a low genjutsu score and knew an AoE genjutsu.
Kurenai was a genjutsu master and knew an AoE genjutsu.
Kakashi isn't know for genjutsu and he has an AoE genjutsu.
Sasuke I think has shown an AoE genjutsu.
SM Jiraiya knows an AoE genjutsu.

But Itachi, the best genjutsu master in the manga to date, and a former ANBU captain, doesn't know even ONE AoE genjutsu? Get real. It defies common sense.


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## Thunder (Jun 13, 2010)

Just because he was good with Genjutsu doesn't mean he knows all types of Genjutsu by default. For all we know, he specialized in non AoE Genjutsu. AoE Genjutsu might not be a staple Genjutsu to learn. There are just too many unknowns.


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## Sanbi (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> You hardly need to know ALL genjutsu to know one AoE ability.
> 
> Kabuto has a low genjutsu score and knew an AoE genjutsu.
> Kurenai was a genjutsu master and knew an AoE genjutsu.
> ...


Common sense? Just because he has shown to be proficient in genjutsu doesn't mean he knows an AoE genjutsu. That wasn't his specialty. He has had multiple encounters where he could have used AoE jutsu to great effect, yet he hasn't. Just because other shinobi knew AoE genjutsu doesn't mean Itachi has to as well. Look at Danzo and Sasuke, they were both great genjutsu users, you don't see them having any AoE genjutsu. Gai is a taijutsu master, that doesn't mean he can use every style. Hiruzen is a ninjutsu master, that doesn't mean he knows all ninjutsu. Just because Itachi is a genjutsu master doesn't prove he knows a specialized type of genjutsu.

I want solid proof that Itachi can use AoE genjutsu, because so far there is none. There are no feats of him doing it, and that is good enough for me. It is just baseless claims, with "Itachi is a genjutsu master" as a coverup.

Oh, and who is the one pumping abilities past what the manga shows again Jinnobi? I thought you were anti-fandom?


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## Michael (Jun 13, 2010)

prasanth said:


> With the summons i think jiraiya takes this



Some substance would be nice, dude.

Itachi uses Tsukiyomi - only counter for that is Ma and Pa, I'm not sure how fast  he can summon them, so I just mentioned that for the hell of it.

Susano'o tanks all of Jiraiya's attacks, and then Itachi spams MS.


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## Angoobo (Jun 13, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> False



Lol wut?:

It's a manga fact, could you give me a manga page that contradicts it?


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## Sanbi (Jun 13, 2010)

Can Nagato use _Amaterasu?_


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## Thunder (Jun 13, 2010)

Shikamaru Nara123 said:


> Some substance would be nice, dude.
> 
> Itachi uses Tsukiyomi - only counter for that is Ma and Pa, I'm not sure how fast  he can summon them, so I just mentioned that for the hell of it.
> 
> Susano'o tanks all of Jiraiya's attacks, and then Itachi spams MS.



Itachi is incapable of spamming MS, especially with _Susano'o_ active, or even afterward.


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## Michael (Jun 13, 2010)

Itachi uses a fire jutsu.


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## Thunder (Jun 13, 2010)

Shikamaru Nara123 said:


> Itachi uses a fire jutsu.



Just a normal Katon? That won't do much to Jiraiya. he can easily dodge or counter.


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## Michael (Jun 13, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Just a normal Katon? That won't do much to Jiraiya. he can easily dodge or counter.



Dude, it's tough debating with you.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 13, 2010)

I think...Jiraiya has better katons besides. And Ma and Pa very, VERY likely have suitons.


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## Butt Hole lol (Jun 13, 2010)

Ma and Pa dont have suitons simply because they havnt shown the ability to do so


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## Thunder (Jun 13, 2010)

Shikamaru Nara123 said:


> Dude, it's tough debating with you.



We debated before?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 13, 2010)

Party Hat said:


> Ma and Pa dont have suitons simply because they havnt shown the ability to do so



They're toads.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> They're toads.



Your point?


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## efmp1987 (Jun 13, 2010)

Itachi used an AOE genjutsu once. It was during when he was faced with Kurenai's magen:jubaku satsu. When Kurenai finished weaving the needed hand seals, Itachi activated magen:Kyō Tenchi-ten, and REVERSED the genjutsu that very moment, so what came next was in essence Itachis illusion, he allowed the illusionary roots to coil around kisame to make it look(for Asuma and Kurenai) that Kurenai was still under control, so basically he fooled 3 in one illusion. Had he prevented the roots to coil on kisame, kurenai could've wondered why the genjutus effect isnt what she intended it to do, SO BASICALLY, HE FOOLED 3 WITH ONE ILLUSION.


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## Thunder (Jun 13, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> Itachi used an AOE genjutsu once. It was during when he was faced with Kurenai's magen:jubaku satsu. When Kurenai finished weaving the needed hand seals, Itachi activated magen:Kyō Tenchi-ten, and REVERSED the genjutsu that very moment, so what came next was in essence Itachis illusion, he allowed the illusionary roots to coil around kisame to make it look(for Asuma and Kurenai) that Kurenai was still under control, so basically he fooled 3 in one illusion. Had he prevented the roots to coil on kisame, kurenai could've wondered why the genjutus effect isnt what she intended it to do, SO BASICALLY, HE FOOLED 3 WITH ONE ILLUSION.



All he did was turn Kunerai's own AoE Genjutsu back on her. It was her jutsu.


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## Kai (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> You hardly need to know ALL genjutsu to know one AoE ability.
> 
> Kabuto has a low genjutsu score and knew an AoE genjutsu.
> Kurenai was a genjutsu master and knew an AoE genjutsu.
> ...


Well Kakashi allegedly has an arsenal of 1,000 jutsu so I guess that gives us the perfect freedom to pick and choose the other 990 that were too shy to be presented.

And unlike Itachi's AOE genjutsu, Kakashi is actually stated to have copied 1,000 jutsu. Amirite?

*Not really*. Characters and jutsu aren't associated on shaky ground. This isn't the library. Everything should be as solid as possible. Debating on flaky evidence throws off the entire discussion; if you want to play that sort of game you might as well just stfu and go somewhere else.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 13, 2010)

Kai said:


> *Not really*. Characters and jutsu aren't associated on shaky ground. This isn't the library. Everything should be as solid as possible. Debating on flaky evidence throws off the entire discussion; if you want to play that sort of game you might as well just stfu and go somewhere else.



Assume THE genjutsu master knows one AoE justsu isn't "shaky ground." It's perfectly reasonable.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 13, 2010)

Show it to us then.


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## Sanbi (Jun 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Assume THE genjutsu master knows one AoE justsu isn't "shaky ground." It's perfectly reasonable.



Just because he has shown to be proficient in genjutsu doesn't mean he knows an AoE genjutsu. That wasn't his specialty. He has had multiple encounters where he could have used AoE jutsu to great effect, yet he hasn't. Just because other shinobi knew AoE genjutsu doesn't mean Itachi has to as well. Look at Danzo and Sasuke, they were both great genjutsu users, you don't see them having any AoE genjutsu. Gai is a taijutsu master, that doesn't mean he can use every style. Hiruzen is a ninjutsu master, that doesn't mean he knows all ninjutsu. Just because Itachi is a genjutsu master doesn't prove he knows a specialized type of genjutsu.

I want solid proof that Itachi can use AoE genjutsu, because so far there is none. There are no feats of him doing it, and that is good enough for me. It is just baseless claims, with "Itachi is a genjutsu master" as a coverup.

Don't push your favorite character's feats past what was shown.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 14, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Every time that Itachi used genjutsu he was playing around with his opponents. He never had a good reason to use an AoE genjutsu.



Yes he  was playing around with Kakashi, so he used tsukuyomi. You need to stop with the ridiculous statements


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## Lightysnake (Jun 14, 2010)

Itachi: Never serious. Except when we decide he is.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 14, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Actually, Nagato knew all ninjutsu
> Anyway, Itachi has never been stated to be 'the master of genjutsu'(i still think Toka Senju is the real master), plus genjutsu is useless with both Pa and Ma on his shoulders.


Did he? I thought he was just trained in all forms of elemental ninjutsu.


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## Kai (Jun 14, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Assume THE genjutsu master knows one AoE justsu isn't "shaky ground." It's perfectly reasonable.


An assumption without feats isn't reasonable in here. An assumption without feats _is_ shaky ground.

An assumption without feats can't be discussed. You can't prove shit.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 14, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Did he? I thought he was just trained in all forms of elemental ninjutsu.


Jiraiya states he mastered all SIX alterations.
Meaning he knew Yin and Yang, which is all non elemental stuff, genjutsu, etc


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 14, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya states he mastered all SIX alterations.
> Meaning he knew Yin and Yang, which is all non elemental stuff, genjutsu, etc


Well, he didn't have a single genjutsu feat at all. I don't even remember him using elemental techniques in his current form (not flash-backs). All that aside, you can't use stuff in the battledome unless you can back-up your claim. Just because he is said "to knows all jutsu" doesn't mean he knows everyone right down to the letter. He was shocked when Kamui came out and because he didn't have any knowledge on it.


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## Angoobo (Jun 14, 2010)

Remember the genjutsu he put on Ame people
He was shocked not because he didn't have knowledge of it, but because he didn't think someone like Kakashi could use it.
Anyway, it's stated he knew all ninjutsu, so unless you back up your point with a manga fact, or 'ill just ignore your post.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 14, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Remember the genjutsu he put on Ame people
> He was shocked not because he didn't have knowledge of it, but because he didn't think someone like Kakashi could use it.
> Anyway, it's stated he knew all ninjutsu, so unless you back up your point with a manga fact, or 'ill just ignore your post.


Well, point blank, if he didn't use it then it doesn't matter if they said he knows all of it or not. Kakashi is said to have mastered 1,000 jutsu, however that doesn't mean in every battledome match he can use every lightning jutsu everyone else has shown except for himself. I'm just playing by the rules, just because they say he knows it, doesn't mean we can use it here. Otherwise, tards would simply attribute techniques and etc to their respective favorite characters and it would be a cluster fuck of nonsense.

If you make a claim, simple and plain you better be able to back it with a manga page. Furthermore, I know about the genjutsu that was used on the Amegakure captive shinobi, however, we never found out if it was Pain's technique or not, even if it was - I doubt he's going to be able to utilize that technique mid-battle to defeat and/or create an effective method of distracting someone.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 14, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Well, he didn't have a single genjutsu feat at all. I don't even remember him using elemental techniques in his current form (not flash-backs). All that aside, you can't use stuff in the battledome unless you can back-up your claim. Just because he is said "to knows all jutsu" doesn't mean he knows everyone right down to the letter. He was shocked when Kamui came out and because he didn't have any knowledge on it.



I'm not saying he knew 'all' jutsu, but mastering means he must have A and S rank in each element-we know for certain he knows Yomi Numa, actually.

Moreover, genjutsu wise, he had genjutsu traps installed in his Ame ninja's minds. Ibiki and Inoichi deduce that's Pain's technique.


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## Panos (Jun 14, 2010)

Itachi wasnt serious against kakashi.


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## Angoobo (Jun 14, 2010)

^^Yet, he was outsmarted...


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## efmp1987 (Jun 14, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> All he did was turn Kunerai's own AoE Genjutsu back on her. It was her jutsu.


he reversed kurenai's AOE genjutsu via the sharingans copying abilities, specifically with magen kyo tenchi ten. one if unable to copy a jutsu if that particular uchiha hasnt trained to the same extent as that person to which a jutsu is to be copied from, just like what happened to pre-shippuuden sasuke when he tried to copy rock lees jutsu, although in this case the jutsu is different from genjutsu, but almost the same rule apply.
so to say, itachi CANT really reverse an AOE illusion if he hasnt trained in the field or if his experience with genjutsu is below that of kurenai... but to mock kurenai "a genjutsu of this level has no effect on me" well its another story.


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## Goobtachi (Jun 14, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Anyway, it's stated he knew all ninjutsu



Noone said such an absurdity


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## Angoobo (Jun 14, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Noone said such an absurdity



Reread the manga...


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## Jinnobi (Jun 14, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> he reversed kurenai's AOE genjutsu via the sharingans copying abilities, specifically with magen kyo tenchi ten. one if unable to copy a jutsu if that particular uchiha hasnt trained to the same extent as that person to which a jutsu is to be copied from, just like what happened to pre-shippuuden sasuke when he tried to copy rock lees jutsu, although in this case the jutsu is different from genjutsu, but almost the same rule apply.
> so to say, itachi CANT really reverse an AOE illusion if he hasnt trained in the field or if his experience with genjutsu is below that of kurenai... but to mock kurenai "a genjutsu of this level has no effect on me" well its another story.



I rest my case. Thank you efmp1987


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## Goobtachi (Jun 14, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Reread the manga...



he can master all elements, so he can learn every jutsu he can see....
He's not gonna learn Amaterasu if he doesn't see someone using it first


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 14, 2010)

I was banned _/ anyway, I won't read the post I missed lol..

Anyway. Tsukuyomi would do the job, as well as Amaterasu because Jiraiya can't counter it. Susano'o is more than enough for Jiraiya to get his ass handed to Itachi.

But seriously now, Tsukuyomi would do it just because Jiraiya is dumb and he has no knowledge, thus, he would look at Itachi's eyes and get killed. He can't escape Tsukuyomi. The second he gets trapped there, what makes you guys think he wouldn't think of it as a normal genjutsu and wants to break out of it on his own - if he's that good?

He has also no knowledge on Amaterasu. Amaterasu should do the job as well ._.

He also has no knowledge on Susano'o. Enuf said.


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## efmp1987 (Jun 14, 2010)

godtachi said:


> he can master all elements, so he can learn every jutsu he can see....
> He's not gonna learn Amaterasu if he doesn't see someone using it first


he doesnt need to see it to learn it(its the sharingans trait), as the rinnegan literally allows the user to perform any jutsu they wish to perform, although basing from the jutsu he performed, both in the manga and anime, it appears none were of kekkei genka in origin(referring to bloodlines different from the rinnegan).


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 14, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> I was banned _/ anyway, I won't read the post I missed lol..
> 
> Anyway. Tsukuyomi would do the job,




At what! causing mental pain to a character who revived himself through sheer willpower.



> as well as Amaterasu because Jiraiya can't counter it.



Gaara's sand says hi!

Jiraiya can easily block it with his hair, katon or Oil.


THE* best part* is:

NONE of those said justu require any *hand seals*. Hence Jiraiya jutsu exicution speed > Itachi's jutsu exicution speed.





> Susano'o is more than enough for Jiraiya to get his ass handed to Itachi.



Yomi Numa or Frog Song is more than enough for Jiraiya to rape Itachi's ass.



> But seriously now, Tsukuyomi would do it just because Jiraiya is dumb and he has no knowledge, thus, he would look at Itachi's eyes and get killed. He can't escape Tsukuyomi. The second he gets trapped there, what makes you guys think he wouldn't think of it as a normal genjutsu and wants to break out of it on his own - if he's that good?




Jiraiya can easily tank it. Mental pain to some one who revived his heart by SHEER WILLPOWER. Against a attack pre skip Kakashi could tank. A Kakashi who shat his pants against Orochimaru and admitted inferiority to Jiraiya




> He has also no knowledge on Amaterasu. Amaterasu should do the job as well ._.



He sealed it, and researched on it.




> He also has no knowledge on Susano'o. Enuf said.



The toads are more than enough for fighting susanoo.

Especially these monstrous attacks.



Suiton:


ITS A MASSIVE* NO LIMIT FALLANCY* TO ASSUME SUSANOO CAN TANK AN ATTACK THAT *EQUALED* *TWO* 


And  to protect Jiraiya from the Sword.


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## efmp1987 (Jun 14, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Gaara's sand says hi!
> 
> Jiraiya can easily block it with his hair, katon or Oil.


that is some hair you got there. amaterasu is as hot as the suns surface, if jiraiyas hair can block it, then he just beat donald trump for the "bad hair day championship".

katon - we have seen what amaterasu did to sasukes katon. if a regular katon can block amaterasu, then we just got ourselves a new "highest level of fire release".

oil - oil is volatile, are you aware of this?

you're underestimating itachis techniques, and you're overestimating jiraiya so much, so much in fact that you declare jiraiyas hair to be capable of blocking amaterasu.


 you overestimated jiraiya just as much itachithegreat overestimated itachi.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 14, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> ITS A MASSIVE* NO LIMIT FALLANCY* TO ASSUME SUSANOO CAN TANK AN ATTACK THAT *EQUALED* *TWO*



To quote: "_The objectionability of the 'no-limits fallacy' is a vs. debating convention designed to reign in hyperbole. It is not inherently false, just frequently so - there are cases where it is perfectly reasonable to believe that a given effect will not be overwhelmed by any finite application of whatever it defends against._"




Therefore: your use of the "no-limits" argument is invalid -- Yata's Mirror isn't speculated to turn back any attack, it simply does. The statement leaves no room for speculation or exaggerated claims.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 14, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> At what! causing mental pain to a character who revived himself through sheer willpower.


exactly



> Gaara's sand says hi!
> 
> Jiraiya can easily block it with his hair, katon or Oil.



lmfao hahahaha

First of all, Amaterasu eats fire and therefor Jiraiya's shit-katon-compared-to-Itachi's won't work. Oil? n/c ._.

Hair? lmfao, hair!? hahaha



> THE* best part* is:
> 
> NONE of those said justu require any *hand seals*. Hence Jiraiya jutsu exicution speed > Itachi's jutsu exicution speed.



So? Itachi's handseal-movement can't be seen even by the sharingan. Also, Itachi's MS jutsus doesn't require handseals (except for Amaterasu) AFAIK. And again, Jiraiya has no knowledge so how the hell would he know if Itachi even have MS, not to mention his jutsus which has the best abilities in the manga?


> Yomi Numa or Frog Song is more than enough for Jiraiya to rape Itachi's ass.


Amaterasu > Yomi Numa
Susano'o > Yomi Numa
Tsukuyomi > Frog Song

Not to mention it takes years to prepare Frog Song, unlike Tsukuyomi that instant both when you cast it and its effect. Also, less than a second in Tsukuyomi world is more than 72h in real world, so Itachi will have all the time he wants to mindfuck Jiraiya so hard that it wouldn't be funny.

Also, if Jiraiya fails with Frog Song then the frogs won't be able to use it again. You saw how the Frogs became after they used it - they could barely speak and they said that their throat was like crushed.



> Jiraiya can easily tank it. Mental pain to some one who revived his heart by SHEER WILLPOWER. Against a attack pre skip Kakashi could tank. A Kakashi who shat his pants against Orochimaru and admitted inferiority to Jiraiya



Stop failing, will you? ._.

Itachi spared Kakashi's life, said by Kakashi himself and also by Kisame. Itachi could have killed him. And yes, he would kill Jiraiya by it, and even IF (if = 0%) Jiraiya manages to survive, in the real world, he will be mentally fucked and he wouldn't be able to move so Itachi can katon him.. lol.


> The toads are more than enough for fighting susanoo.



/facepalm x100

One scratch on either of the toads and they are sealed.




> ITS A MASSIVE* NO LIMIT FALLANCY* TO ASSUME SUSANOO CAN TANK AN ATTACK THAT *EQUALED* *TWO*



Are you for real? An incomplete Itachi Susano'o tanked a Kirin - Kirin is not chakra, it's nature chakra - it takes its powers from the nature. Please.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 14, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Well, he didn't have a single genjutsu feat at all. I don't even remember him using elemental techniques in his current form (not flash-backs). All that aside, you can't use stuff in the battledome unless you can back-up your claim. Just because he is said "to knows all jutsu" doesn't mean he knows everyone right down to the letter. He was shocked when Kamui came out and because he didn't have any knowledge on it.



To be clear

1. Rinnegan gives one THE POTENTIAL to learn ANY jutsu. It does not grant you jutsu except the seven powers of the Pein realms. The rest you have to learn
2. Pein used elemental jutsu, the rain detection jutsu



Peaceful said:


> Itachi wasnt serious against kakashi.



No he was not, so he used his strongest genjutsu to teach him a lesson about the sharingan



efmp1987 said:


> he reversed kurenai's AOE genjutsu via the sharingans copying abilities, specifically with magen kyo tenchi ten. one if unable to copy a jutsu if that particular uchiha hasnt trained to the same extent as that person to which a jutsu is to be copied from, just like what happened to pre-shippuuden sasuke when he tried to copy rock lees jutsu, although in this case the jutsu is different from genjutsu, but almost the same rule apply.
> so to say, itachi CANT really reverse an AOE illusion if he hasnt trained in the field or if his experience with genjutsu is below that of kurenai... but to mock kurenai "a genjutsu of this level has no effect on me" well its another story.



Jesus Christ!!!!!!! Itachi did not COPY Kurenai's genjutsu. He REVERSED it, which does not involve copying. It was the same genjutsu Kurenai cast, reversed on her. It was not Itachi's using her genjutsu as part of his arsenal. He was using his chakra for magen kyo tenchi ten to cause her to reverse her chakra on herself and cause herself to see her genjutsu



efmp1987 said:


> he doesnt need to see it to learn it(its the sharingans trait), as the rinnegan literally allows the user to perform any jutsu they wish to perform, although basing from the jutsu he performed, both in the manga and anime, it appears none were of kekkei genka in origin(referring to bloodlines different from the rinnegan).



The rinnegan allows you to LEARN any jutsu not to perform them unless you learn them. Remember the two brothers, one had the eyes and the other had the body. The eyes devolved into the sharingan, which allows you to COPY any jutsu but you cannot replicate it unless you have the elemental affinity and the necessary chakra = you had the body. Rinnegan is eyes and body = ability to copy and the chakra and elemental affinity to reproduce


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## efmp1987 (Jun 14, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Jesus Christ!!!!!!! Itachi did not COPY Kurenai's genjutsu. He REVERSED it, which does not involve copying. It was the same genjutsu Kurenai cast, reversed on her. It was not Itachi's using her genjutsu as part of his arsenal. He was using his chakra for magen kyo tenchi ten to cause her to reverse her chakra on herself and cause herself to see her genjutsu


 read the previous post before me and you'll understand what Im talking about.





Senjuclan said:


> The rinnegan allows you to LEARN any jutsu not to perform them unless you learn them. Remember the two brothers, one had the eyes and the other had the body. The eyes devolved into the sharingan, which allows you to COPY any jutsu but you cannot replicate it unless you have the elemental affinity and the necessary chakra = you had the body. Rinnegan is eyes and body = ability to copy and the chakra and elemental affinity to reproduce


 and I never said you can just perform them out of consciousness, you have to learn them defnitely. my argument was to counter the assumption that the rinnegan can '"COPY'" jutsus.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 14, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> read the previous post before me and you'll understand what Im talking about.



I read it and you are still wrong. He did not use an AOE genjutsu nor did he copy one.



efmp1987 said:


> and I never said you can just perform them out of consciousness, you have to learn them defnitely. my argument was to counter the assumption that the rinnegan can '"COPY'" jutsus.



Well, I actually believe that the rinnegan copies jutsu. To copy jutsu means what? The sharingan sees the handseals and memorizes them. The rinnegan allows you to learn ANY jutsu. This would require one to be able to see handseals and memorize them


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## Jinnobi (Jun 14, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> I read it and you are still wrong. He did not use an AOE genjutsu nor did he copy one.



Are you saying that the technique doesn't actually perform the ability, he simply reflects it back at the caster?


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 14, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> that is some hair you got there. amaterasu is as *hot as the suns surface*, if jiraiyas hair can block it, then he just beat donald trump for the "bad hair day championship".




Karins clothes, Samurai armor and many other things says hi!

And Jiraiya can regrow his hair in seconds and seal up the flames. Unlike Mr Trump

Better yet he can smash the inflamed hair back at Itachi.



> katon - we have seen what amaterasu did to sasukes katon. if a regular katon can block amaterasu, then we just got ourselves a new "highest level of fire release".



Yes, and Sasuke blocked it for a time giving him time to escape the flames and create a kawarimi. Jiraiya has much greater chakra. And can easily seal up the flames. Considering his hand are free he can easily use a Kage Bunshin while blowing the fire.

He can use multiple jutsu simultaniously
Just replace the Yomi numa with a KB seal.




> oil - oil is volatile, are you aware of this?



Ever herd the saying, fight fire with a bigger fire.
 The oil(a material object with greater* force*) will move in Itachi's direction. The fire (an immaterial object with little to no mass thus little *force*) will move in Jiraiya's direction, if the oil explodes it will explode in Itachi's direction, a very idiotic move for Itachi. If you understand basic physics and simple logic.




> you're underestimating itachis techniques, and you're overestimating jiraiya so much, so much in fact that you declare jiraiyas hair to be capable of blocking amaterasu.
> 
> 
> you overestimated jiraiya just as much itachithegreat overestimated itachi.




How is it overestimating when we say the limitation. Gaara can block it. Samurai armor which is steel hard can stop it. Heck Karin Survived what is soo hard to assume Jiraiya's steel hard hair can't block it.



Jinnobi said:


> To quote: "_The objectionability of the 'no-limits fallacy' is a vs. debating convention designed to reign in hyperbole. It is not inherently false, just frequently so - there are cases where it is perfectly reasonable to believe that a given effect will not be overwhelmed by any finite application of whatever it defends against._"
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually the mere fact that the Yata mirror does not *reflect attack*. Merely *blocks* it makes the whole statement wrong. Cause if the mirror reflects attack. It should reflect the explosion, and the kunai's* back *at Sasuke. Something it clearly dosent.




ItachiTheGreat said:


> exactly



lol not Jiraiya's willpower > preskip Kakashi who can tank Tsukuyomi


> lmfao hahahaha
> 
> First of all, Amaterasu eats fire and therefor Jiraiya's shit-katon-compared-to-Itachi's won't work.



Like Sasuke, Oh! wait it did stall Amaterasu for a couple of seconds. Enough for Sasuke to use a Kawarimi to excape.


> Hair? lmfao, hair!? hahaha



Jiraiya's hair> Samurai Armor>Karin> Karin's clothes> Amaterasu

Lmfao lolamaterasu,



> So? Itachi's handseal-movement can't be seen even by the sharingan. Also, Itachi's MS jutsus doesn't require handseals (except for Amaterasu) AFAIK.




Itachi's jutsu = always require hand seals (hence takes time)
Jiraiya's jutsu= requires no to very  few seals(hence takes even lesser time.)

No matter how you slice it. No handseal jutsu exicution speed> Jutsu with hand seal




> And again, Jiraiya has no knowledge so how the hell would he know if Itachi even have MS, not to mention his jutsus which has the best abilities in the manga?



WHAT the fuck are you talking about Jiraiya is the FIRST PERSON TO SEE AMATERASU HE FUCKING SEALED IT. READ THE MANGA.



> Jiraiya's hair> Steel=  armor>Amaterasu
> Yomi Num> Susano'o
> Frog Song> Tsukuyomi



Fixed 




> Not to mention it takes years to prepare Frog Song, unlike Tsukuyomi that instant both when you cast it and its effect. Also, less than a second in Tsukuyomi world is more than 72h in real world, so Itachi will have all the time he wants to mindfuck Jiraiya so hard that it wouldn't be funny.



Fat, lot of good mindfucking will do if the victim can tank mental damage. With high will power.



> Also, if Jiraiya fails with Frog Song then the frogs won't be able to use it again. You saw how the Frogs became after they used it - they could barely speak and they said that their throat was like crushed.



And Itachi can spam Tsukiyomi like a monkey on seroids right 




> Stop failing, will you? ._.
> 
> Itachi spared Kakashi's life, said by Kakashi himself and also by Kisame.


[B[/B]
Kakashi was still able to fight or else he wouldn't have said it still not over

He only fell down after he left.



> Itachi could have killed him



Could have =/=can 


> And yes, he would kill Jiraiya by it, and even IF (if = 0%) Jiraiya manages to survive, in the real world, he will be mentally fucked and he wouldn't be able to move so Itachi can katon him.. lol



The guy can move and use a* jutsu that requires delicate chakra contro*l while chakra disruptin rods are inside his vital organs, has a arm ripped off and a throat crushed. And AFTER his heart stopped beating, ppl die when their heart stops beating, Just ask itachi

And still Jiraiya got up. So yes he can definately tank Tsukuyomi.




> /facepalm x100
> 
> One scratch on either of the toads and they are sealed.




And it actually has to scratch the toads. And all of them has weapons with which they can block the sword from.




> Are you for real? An incomplete Itachi Susano'o tanked a Kirin - Kirin is not chakra, it's nature chakra - it takes its powers from the nature. Please.




:faceplam 


So lightning has *force * comparable to that of Mountain buster! Wow! I wonder how we suivive every day. Within many mountain busting lightning hitting the ground every day.

Idiot.:faceplam


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## Jinnobi (Jun 14, 2010)

> Actually the mere fact that the Yata mirror does not reflect attack. Merely blocks it makes the whole statement wrong. Cause if the mirror reflects attack. It should reflect the explosion, and the kunai's back at Sasuke. Something it clearly dosent.



Reading comprehension: a valuable asset.

Click the link.

Read the page.

Profit.

Also: if an attack can't be reflected, i.e. an explosion, it's not going to be. Simply because some attacks can't be reflected does not mean attacks that CAN be reflected won't be.


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## Sanbi (Jun 14, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> Itachi used an AOE genjutsu once.


No he didn't he reflected a genjutsu using another genjutsu



> It was during when he was faced with Kurenai's magen:jubaku satsu. When Kurenai finished weaving the needed hand seals, Itachi activated magen:Kyō Tenchi-ten, and REVERSED the genjutsu that very moment,


 .



> so what came next was in essence Itachis illusion,


No it wasn't.  he turned the genjutsu back only on Kurenai, 



> he allowed the illusionary roots to coil around kisame to make it look(for Asuma and Kurenai) that Kurenai was still under control, so basically he fooled 3 in one illusion.


Really what proof do you have of this?  after and only got Kurenai.



> Had he prevented the roots to coil on kisame, kurenai could've wondered why the genjutus effect isnt what she intended it to do, SO BASICALLY, HE FOOLED 3 WITH ONE ILLUSION.


Baseless claim the favors Itachi and disagrees with the manga.



efmp1987 said:


> he reversed kurenai's AOE genjutsu via the sharingans copying abilities, specifically with magen kyo tenchi ten.


Oh, so now using a genjutsu that reverses other genjutsu unto the user is the same as the Shraingan copying jutsu now is it? I never knew that.



> one if unable to copy a jutsu if that particular uchiha hasnt trained to the same extent as that person to which a jutsu is to be copied from, just like what happened to pre-shippuuden sasuke when he tried to copy rock lees jutsu, although in this case the jutsu is different from genjutsu, but almost the same rule apply.


That would be true, if Itachi was using Sharingan to copy the illusion, but instead he used another genjutsu which reverses a genjutsu onto the user.



> so to say, itachi CANT really reverse an AOE illusion if he hasnt trained in the field or if his experience with genjutsu is below that of kurenai...


Untrue, he can't copy a genjutsu if he hasn't trained in that area. And he didn't copy the genjutsu he reversed it using another genjutsu.



> but to mock kurenai "a genjutsu of this level has no effect on me" well its another story.


It was a low level AoE genjutsu, saying that had nothing to do with being an AoE jutsu.



Jinnobi said:


> I rest my case. Thank you efmp1987


Read the above response.


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 15, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Reading comprehension: a valuable asset.
> 
> Click the link.
> 
> ...




Again I ask for PROOF of an attack being REFLECTED like you are implying. And I ask for proof of Susanoo tanking a mountain buster. I ask for PROOF of susanoo turning an attack back.


Heck do you even know what reflected means?

Hint: 

Mirrors *reflects *light. When light falls it.
Also a wall *reflects* light. When light falls on it.

When you punch wall, it does obstruct the fists motion. You get hurt. This itself is also* a* from of reflection.


Reflection does not mean 100% reflection. I can easly mean a reaction, or obstruction.



Again without* proof*. You clamied Susanoo can tank a mountain buster. Even though it hasn't *anything* on that level.


EX:
Z attack >>>>>Y attack

Just because X tanked Y. Doesnot mean X can automatically tank Z. But then again I don't expect you to listen to reason.



And this is why the OBD is so much better. Hype should be taken by a grain of salt.


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## efmp1987 (Jun 15, 2010)

this is a troll thread. kurenai performed the needed hand seals, itachi recognized it as genjutsu and activated demonic illusion, which means, the genjutsu counter took effect that very moment, after that, roots started sprouting. its hard to debate against those who stand on neutral ground, but is impossible to reason to those who says itachi loses in virtually any battle topics.

proof that itachi used demonic illusion:


just after kurenai finished weaving the hand seals, demonic illusion was activated, and from thenceforth, the illusion was already countered, just to quote Sanbi.


anyway, this has been proven over and over and over again, itachi wins, HM jiraiya loses. try as you might all, but in vain. let thy words by etched in stone: Itachi hath wineth.


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## Kisame (Jun 15, 2010)

why does Jiraiya start in HM? he should start in Base.thats Unfair


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## Senjuclan (Jun 15, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> why does Jiraiya start in HM? he should start in Base.thats Unfair



Getting in sage mode is easier than you guys think. This is what Pa (Jiraiya's sensei) recommended:

1. If you have comrades, have them cover for you
2. If you are alone, retreat and come back

Jiraiya can retreat with reverse summoning


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## Sanbi (Jun 15, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> this is a troll thread. kurenai performed the needed hand seals, itachi recognized it as genjutsu and activated demonic illusion


Really, how can you tell this from a scan, that doesn't show anyone activating anything, just 



> which means, the genjutsu counter took effect that very moment, after that, roots started sprouting.


You have no proof the genjutsu counter was activated at that very moment. It is a baseless claim that clearly favors Itachi in this debate.

Besides,  so if anything the manga supports the genjutsu counter being activated there.



> its hard to debate against those who stand on neutral ground, but is impossible to reason to those who says itachi loses in virtually any battle topics.


I find Itachi to be one of the strongest people in the BD, I just don't wank his abilities past a level that was shown in the manga and what feats have shown. I think he is on the same level as HM Jiraiya, Danzo, Kirabi and Edo Orochimaru, which for some reason, Itachi fans think he is past Pain and Minato's level.



> proof that itachi used demonic illusion:


Focusing on his Sharingan =/= Using a genjutsu reversal jutsu, which needs _seals_



> just after kurenai finished weaving the hand seals, demonic illusion was activated, and from thenceforth, the illusion was already countered, just to quote Sanbi.


You have no proof it was activated at that moment, when Itachi just activated his Sharingan, and the manga proves he activated it after he was caught by Kuernai, not before.




> anyway, this has been proven over and over and over again, itachi wins, HM jiraiya loses. try as you might all, but in vain. let thy words by etched in stone: Itachi hath wineth.


So you stand on _neutral_ ground? Could have fooled me...


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## Kisame (Jun 15, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Getting in sage mode is easier than you guys think. This is what Pa (Jiraiya's sensei) recommended:
> 
> 1. If you have comrades, have them cover for you
> 2. If you are alone, retreat and come back
> ...




Fair Enough...I can actually see Jiraiya pulling it off


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## Jinnobi (Jun 15, 2010)

Whenever someone is cornered and falls back on the "give me proof" argument - even though we know full well that there is no proof either way - I consider myself the winner.

It is implicitly known on these forums that we can't "prove" anything. We make arguments and support them the best we can. We are making a likely story. It's all just a likely story. 



> Again I ask for PROOF of an attack being REFLECTED like you are implying.... I ask for PROOF of susanoo turning an attack back.



There is no proof either way. But Zetsu said it does. If you'd like to argue differently, supply reason for it.



> You have no proof it was activated at that moment, when Itachi just activated his Sharingan, and the manga proves he activated it after he was caught by Kuernai, not before.



The manga panel shows a zoom-in on Itachi's sharigan, and it looks like he's peering intently at something. The Sharigan sees through genjutsu. Whether he activated the technique at that moment or later on is ambiguous, but what is clear is that the manga "proves" nothing.  There is just as little proof that Itachi activated it when you think he did as there is for when efmp1987 thinks he did.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 15, 2010)

We saw the Mirror block attacks, not 'reflect' them. To 'turn back' can mean to just block.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 15, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> We saw the Mirror block attacks, not 'reflect' them.





"Its shield is reflecting all of Sasuke's attacks!"

We saw Yata's Mirror stop explosions and the direction of the explosions were away from Itachi. Simply because the explosions are short-ranged doesn't mean they weren't reflected.



> To 'turn back' can mean to just block.



To "turn" is to reverse direction or to deviate from a course. "Back" in this context means "to the same place it started." 

Therefore: to reverse direction to the same place it started. 

Therefore: reflect.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 15, 2010)

I'd advise against relying on literally translated things like that. Sasuke's kunai just detonated harmlessly on the shield.
And in fighting terms, yes, to 'turn aside' or turn back a blow can mean just to block or deflect it.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 15, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I'd advise against relying on literally translated things like that. Sasuke's kunai just detonated harmlessly on the shield.
> And in fighting terms, yes, to 'turn aside' or turn back a blow can mean just to block or deflect it.


If it was an exploding kunai, it couldn't turn it back, however, I wonder how other regular kunai would have effected Susano'o. Would they just be reflected back at the user. Zetsu provides an astute explanation and states clearly that it has the ability to return any attack back onto attacker. But of course, there are limitations and etc, I doubt it could provide defense against earth elemental related techniques. However against a direct head on attack it probably could.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 15, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I'd advise against relying on literally translated things like that. Sasuke's kunai just detonated harmlessly on the shield.
> And in fighting terms, yes, to 'turn aside' or turn back a blow can mean just to block or deflect it.



I would advise against attempting to discredit _anything_ and _everything_ relating to Itachi, the Sharigan, and the Uchiha in general.


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## Cursed Avenger (Jun 15, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> If it was an exploding kunai, it couldn't turn it back, however, I wonder how other regular kunai would have effected Susano'o. Would they just be reflected back at the user. Zetsu provides an astute explanation and states clearly that it has the ability to return any attack back onto attacker. But of course, there are limitations and etc, I doubt it could provide defense against earth elemental related techniques. However against a direct head on attack it probably could.



Regular Kunai?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 15, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> I would advise against attempting to discredit _anything_ and _everything_ relating to Itachi, the Sharigan, and the Uchiha in general.



I'd advise against attempting to hype them up beyond reasonable levels.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 15, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Regular Kunai?


No, my post was specific to Itachi's Susano'o not Sasuke's. He doesn't have that magical shield.


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## Sanbi (Jun 15, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Whenever someone is cornered and falls back on the "give me proof" argument - even though we know full well that there is no proof either way - I consider myself the winner.


Well you shouldn't, because asking for proof isn't winning. The manga clearly shows something else, and I ask for the manga page that gave them the impression that happened hence the "proof". Because in that particular case, we see a closeup of the sharingan, and then the genjutsu counter after  he gets caught. The argument that says he activated the genjutsu counter before the genjutsu was cast, and Itachi somehow was in control of the genjutsu the whole time, even though the technique he was using was a genjutsu reversal  upon the user, not taking control of the genjutsu. So it clearly is just fanfiction.



> It is implicitly known on these forums that we can't "prove" anything. We make arguments and support them the best we can. We are making a likely story. It's all just a likely story.


You can prove it if the manga clearly show it and not something else, hence the proof. 





> The manga panel shows a zoom-in on Itachi's sharigan, and it looks like he's peering intently at something. The Sharigan sees through genjutsu.


This is all true.



> Whether he activated the technique at that moment or later on is ambiguous, but what is clear is that the manga "proves" nothing.  There is just as little proof that Itachi activated it when you think he did as there is for when efmp1987 thinks he did.


So either way you can't "prove" Itachi can use AoE jutsu with this, like you seemed to originally thought.

But we see a closeup of his sharingan, showing that he sees through her genjutsu. Besides, the thought that Itachi could catch himself and Kisame in genjutsu with this technique isn't true, the technique is turning back the genjutsu upon the user, not taking control of the genjutsu. So Itachi couldn't have activated the genjutsu there since, it wouldn't follow the rules of the technique he was using, we saw no indication ie seals he activated any jutsu at that moment, and we see the actual technique in use several pages later.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 15, 2010)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> No, my post was specific to Itachi's Susano'o not Sasuke's. He doesn't have that magical shield.



Why the hell would Sasuke's mirror reflect Kunai but Itachi's doesn't.

Besides, the name is Yata's _Mirror._ Mirrors reflect, they don't block.



> the technique is turning back the genjutsu upon the user, not taking control of the genjutsu.



If you were no longer in control of the jutsu, how does the genjutsu know to capture Kunenai and not harm Itachi. Its self-evident that someone must be in control of the jutsu, or else it would dissipate.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 15, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Why the hell would Sasuke's mirror reflect Kunai but Itachi's doesn't.
> 
> Besides, the name is Yata's _Mirror._ Mirrors reflect, they don't block.


Re-read the entire debate before jumping in. I never said anything about Sasuke, that guy posted the picture of the Kunai to Sasuke's thing. He wouldn't be able to use that mirror cause that's an accessory only to Itachi.


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## Superior (Jun 15, 2010)

Haven't scrolled down the page yet and there's like 6 Itachi threads..

Anyway, not sure would win.


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## efmp1987 (Jun 15, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Really, how can you tell this from a scan, that doesn't show anyone activating anything, just


 proof that he's just focusing? damn kurenai must be above minato when it comes to speed, because he had to "FOCUS"...




Sanbi said:


> You have no proof the genjutsu counter was activated at that very moment. It is a baseless claim that clearly favors Itachi in this debate.


I just provided it, and you rejected it.



Sanbi said:


> Besides,  so if anything the manga supports the genjutsu counter being activated there.


"The user decrypts a genjutsu that has been applied onto them, and casts back a technique with identical effects onto the opponent." thats the definition according to the latest databook, page 274... the choiced phrase is "cast back", instead of "reflect back"




Sanbi said:


> I find Itachi to be one of the strongest people in the BD, I just don't wank his abilities past a level that was shown in the manga and what feats have shown. I think he is on the same level as HM Jiraiya, Danzo, Kirabi and Edo Orochimaru, which for some reason, Itachi fans think he is past Pain and Minato's level.


, tell me, what are the feats of minato as shown in the manga? i believe his reputation exceeds his feats. alot of itachi-haters say that they consider itachi as one of the strongest, its just a defense mechanism so as to prevent someone from saying that that person is indeed an itachi basher.




Sanbi said:


> Focusing on his Sharingan =/= Using a genjutsu reversal jutsu, which needs _seals_


and you're wrong, Magen: Kyō Tenchi-ten A.K.A.Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change requires no hand seals. 




Sanbi said:


> You have no proof it was activated at that moment, when Itachi just activated his Sharingan, and the manga proves he activated it after he was caught by Kuernai, not before.


I had proof, but your mind refuses to accept it, for some really weird reason.you just cant lay it to rest that the illusion was already countered the moment kurenai finished with the hand hands. in the anime you'll hear the sound effect of that particular scene. i hope that will force your mind to accept it as true.



So you stand on _neutral_ ground? Could have fooled me...[/QUOTE]


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## Sanbi (Jun 15, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> If you were no longer in control of the jutsu, how does the genjutsu know to capture Kunenai and not harm Itachi. Its self-evident that someone must be in control of the jutsu, or else it would dissipate.


I don't think I got my point across. His genjutsu isn't taking control of the genjutsu, or to better word it, him using this tech does not mean he is capable of using Kurenai's genjutsu. He simply turned it back upon her, nothing more nothing less. He doesn't suddenly know the jutsu after using a tech to turn it back on her.


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## efmp1987 (Jun 15, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> I don't think I got my point across. His genjutsu isn't taking control of the genjutsu, or to better word it, him using this tech does not mean he is capable of using Kurenai's genjutsu. He simply turned it back upon her, nothing more nothing less. He doesn't suddenly know the jutsu after using a tech to turn it back on her.


"The user decrypts a genjutsu that has been applied onto them, and casts back a technique with identical effects onto the opponent." thats the definition of the genjutsu reversal that we're talking about. source, 2nd databook, page 274. and note that the phrase is "cast back" instead of "reflects"


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## Jinnobi (Jun 15, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> I don't think I got my point across. His genjutsu isn't taking control of the genjutsu, or to better word it, him using this tech does not mean he is capable of using Kurenai's genjutsu. He simply turned it back upon her, nothing more nothing less. He doesn't suddenly know the jutsu after using a tech to turn it back on her.



I don't think you understand what I was asking.

HOW does one turn an illusion back upon the original caster and make it work the way you want it if no one controls it?


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## Sanbi (Jun 15, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> "The user decrypts a genjutsu that has been applied onto them, and casts back a technique with identical effects onto the opponent." thats the definition of the genjutsu reversal that we're talking about. source, 2nd databook, page 274. and note that the phrase is "cast back" instead of "reflects"


You got that from Narutopedia, not the second databook  Guess what happened when he cast back her genjutsu? It only worked on Kurenai, which means it wasn't AoE. Even if that method does work, that doesn't prove Itachi can use AoE genjutsu, he reversed Kurenai's genjutsu back on her using another genjutsu, he didn't use an AoE genjutsu that was his own. So that in no way proves he can use AoE genjutsu.



Jinnobi said:


> I don't think you understand what I was asking.
> 
> HOW does one turn an illusion back upon the original caster and make it work the way you want it if no one controls it?


Let's get back to the problem we were originally discussing, which was how does reversing Kurenai's genjutsu back on her prove Itachi can use AoE genjutsu? All he did was reverse Kurenai's genjutsu back on her using another genjutsu, he didn't use his own AoE genjutsu.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 15, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Let's get back to the problem we were originally discussing, which was how does reversing Kurenai's genjutsu back on her prove Itachi can use AoE genjutsu? All he did was reverse Kurenai's genjutsu back on her using another genjutsu, he didn't use his own AoE genjutsu.



In order to reverse the jutsu, you need to be proficient enough to cast it.

The Sharigan copies jutsu.

Knowledge of the technique and ability to cast it.

See?


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## efmp1987 (Jun 15, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> You got that from Narutopedia, not the second databook  Guess what happened when he cast back her genjutsu? It only worked on Kurenai, which means it wasn't AoE. Even if that method does work, that doesn't prove Itachi can use AoE genjutsu, he reversed Kurenai's genjutsu back on her using another genjutsu, he didn't use an AoE genjutsu that was his own. So that in no way proves he can use AoE genjutsu.


or did I not? or maybe narutopedia got that from the databook surely? narutopedia, wikipedia, as long at it came from the databook it still mean one same thing, I'll assume you'll agree to that?




Sanbi said:


> Let's get back to the problem we were originally discussing, which was how does reversing Kurenai's genjutsu back on her prove Itachi can use AoE genjutsu?All he did was reverse Kurenai's genjutsu back on her using another genjutsu, he didn't use his own AoE genjutsu.


and again, the phrase is "cast back" not reverse or reflect, to go against what was written would be to speculate, and we all know that speculation is unhealthy. and my oh my, "ALL HE DID WAS REVERSE KURENIA'S GENJUTSU BACK ON HER USING ANOTHER GENJUTSU, BUT HE DIDN'T USE HIS OWN AOE GENJUTSU" what are you talking about? first he just reversed kurenais illusion and now he used another genjutsu? you're inconsistent. ok,i'll take you're word, he did used a genjutsu against kurenai, and it so happened that that illusion was demonic illusion: tree binding death, which in a sense is an AOE illusion. dont tell me two illusions with the same name can have different effects?


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## Sanbi (Jun 15, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> In order to reverse the jutsu, you need to be proficient enough to cast it.


That only applies to copying jutsu.



> The Sharigan copies jutsu.


Does that mean Itachi copies every single jutsu he every sees? No. There is no indication he copied Kurenai's jutsu.



> Knowledge of the technique and ability to cast it.


? What was this in response to?




efmp1987 said:


> or did I not? or maybe narutopedia got that from the databook surely? narutopedia, wikipedia, as long at it came from the databook it still mean one same thing, I'll assume you'll agree to that


I want a translated DB page if I want to believe you. Narutopedia is not a reliable source, and should not be used for reference.




> and again, the phrase is "cast back" not reverse or reflect, to go against what was written would be to speculate, and we all know that speculation is unhealthy. and my oh my


That was used in Narutopedia, and not the actual BD until you have the page translated.



> first he just reversed kurenais illusion and now he used another genjutsu? you're inconsistent.


Yeah, he used a genjutsu that reverses another genjutsu.



> ok,i'll take you're word, he did used a genjutsu against kurenai, and it so happened that that illusion was demonic illusion: tree binding death, which in a sense is an AOE illusion.


No, he used a genjutsu called Magen: Kyō Tenchi-ten which reverses the genjutsu back onto the user.



> dont tell me two illusions with the same name can have different effects?


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## efmp1987 (Jun 16, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> That only applies to copying jutsu.
> 
> 
> Does that mean Itachi copies every single jutsu he every sees? No. There is no indication he copied Kurenai's jutsu.


well no, but to be able to decrypt a jutsu, one needs to have knowledge regarding that jutsu or the likes, hence the word "DECRYPT"??? or maybe you need to read websters just to help you clarify things up.



Sanbi said:


> I want a translated DB page if I want to believe you. Narutopedia is not a reliable source, and should not be used for reference.


its been translated over and over again in several forums, and the text always remains the same, even though the jutsu name sometimes changes. KEKKEI GENKAI; Genjutsu; Magen: Kyou Tenchi Ten (Genjutsu; Demonic Illusion: Universe-Mirroring Reversal)
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

_*Main text

One decrypts a genjutsu that has been applied onto them, and casts back a jutsu with identical effects onto the opponent!! It's a form of illusion reversal, but in order to instantly read through a jutsu and cast it in return, the Sharingan's power is necessary.*_ believe in what you want, but all you do is reject the facts, and notice that Im the one who keeps on posting facts while all you do is ask for them and then reject them ultimately.





Sanbi said:


> Yeah, he used a genjutsu that reverses another genjutsu.


the term is "cast back". it allows the user to "CAST BACK" some forms of genjutsu.


[/QUOTE]


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## Excalibur (Jun 16, 2010)

While almost over 2,000 posts on this heated discussion, I personally believe Jiraiya will recieve the same treatment like orochimaru..


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## Lightysnake (Jun 16, 2010)

Onto the 'opponent.' Nobody else.

And yeah, Supreme Buu? Why? Jiraiya knows how to break genjutsu. He's in Sage Mode, increasing resistance. Oh, yeah, and Shima and Fukasaku are Genjutsu masters and can sense any alteration in chakra.


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## Sanbi (Jun 16, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> well no, but to be able to decrypt a jutsu, one needs to have knowledge regarding that jutsu or the likes, hence the word "DECRYPT"??? or maybe you need to read websters just to help you clarify things up.


Does that mean Itachi can now use the jutsu?  Oh, and Itachi certainly has knowledge on the field of genjutsu, an AoE genjutsu isn't that big of a difference, the only difference is the number of targets, Itachi should still be able to reverse it since it isn't at his level of genjutsu.



> its been translated over and over again in several forums, and the text always remains the same, even though the jutsu name sometimes changes.
> 
> KEKKEI GENKAI; Genjutsu; Magen: Kyou Tenchi Ten (Genjutsu; Demonic Illusion: Universe-Mirroring Reversal)
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> ...


Can I get a link to this? You can never be too sure 



> believe in what you want, but all you do is reject the facts, and notice that Im the one who keeps on posting facts while all you do is ask for them and then reject them ultimately.


I have never rejected them, and I'm the one posting manga scans, not you. The DB can be untrustworthy at times, as seen with Itachi's suiton which travels at the speed of light.




> the term is "cast back". it allows the user to "CAST BACK" some forms of genjutsu.


Yeah, but does that mean he can now use the jutsu whenever he wants? He used a genjutsu to cast back another genjutsu back unto the user, not he suddenly gains the ability to use the genjutsu he cast back. The simple fact is: He used a genjutsu to use Kurenai's genjutsu, not his own skill, and it wasn't even AoE when Itachi cast it back, so you can't draw the conclusion that he can use AoE jutsu because he used one genjutsu to cast back another.


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## Awesome (Jun 16, 2010)

Genjutsu wouldn't really be an issue in this fight, Shima or Fukasaku can break Jiraiya right out of it.


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## efmp1987 (Jun 16, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Does that mean Itachi can now use the jutsu?  Oh, and Itachi certainly has knowledge on the field of genjutsu, an AoE genjutsu isn't that big of a difference, the only difference is the number of targets, Itachi should still be able to reverse it since it isn't at his level of genjutsu.


considering that the illusion is a low level one, its possible.



Sanbi said:


> Can I get a link to this? You can never be too sure


use google, i hate babies because you have to spoonfeed them everytime.




Sanbi said:


> I have never rejected them, and I'm the one posting manga scans, not you. The DB can be untrustworthy at times, as seen with Itachi's suiton which travels at the speed of light.


well shame on the translator because he wrote that suigadan travels at the speed of light, but I guess that mistake was only commited once, as opposed to the "cast back" thing that is used by all translotors.





Sanbi said:


> Yeah, but does that mean he can now use the jutsu whenever he wants? He used a genjutsu to cast back another genjutsu back unto the user, not he suddenly gains the ability to use the genjutsu he cast back. The simple fact is: He used a genjutsu to use Kurenai's genjutsu, not his own skill, and it wasn't even AoE when Itachi cast it back, so you can't draw the conclusion that he can use AoE jutsu because he used one genjutsu to cast back another.


why would he want to use a low level genjutsu? and oh, what were talking about, i think its about "Itachi has knowledge regarding AOE illusions".


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## efmp1987 (Jun 16, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> While almost over 2,000 posts on this heated discussion, I personally believe Jiraiya will recieve the same treatment like orochimaru..


well not really, jiraiya will be alot harder to deal with, but itachi will still win.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 16, 2010)

Unlikely at best.


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## Excalibur (Jun 16, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Onto the 'opponent.' Nobody else.
> 
> And yeah, Supreme Buu? Why? Jiraiya knows how to break genjutsu. He's in Sage Mode, increasing resistance. Oh, yeah, and Shima and Fukasaku are Genjutsu masters and can sense any alteration in chakra.



I understand but it was just under my opinion that Itachi is stronger then all the sannin individually.


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## Sanbi (Jun 16, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> considering that the illusion is a low level one, its possible.


Baseless claim, he doesn't know AoE genjutsu, even if it was a low level one.



> use google, i hate babies because you have to spoonfeed them everytime.


I'm sorry for asking you to back up your argument.....



> well shame on the translator because he wrote that suigadan travels at the speed of light, but I guess that mistake was only commited once, as opposed to the "cast back" thing that is used by all translotors.


Yes, casting back is apart of the genjutsu, not something that proves Itachi can use AoE genjutsu.



> why would he want to use a low level genjutsu? and oh, what were talking about, i think its about "Itachi has knowledge regarding AOE illusions".


Having knowledge about a subject =/= having the subject in your repertoire.

Just look at Jiraiya, and his knowledge with genjutsu.


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## Excalibur (Jun 16, 2010)

efmp1987 said:


> well not really, jiraiya will be alot harder to deal with, but itachi will still win.



Yes of course It will be harder just b/c of the fact that it's two toads on Jiraiya's shoulder helping him out. Without them Jiraiya will be dealt with even quicker.


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## efmp1987 (Jun 16, 2010)

Itachi^ said:


> Genjutsu wouldn't really be an issue in this fight, Shima or Fukasaku can break Jiraiya right out of it.


except that tsukuyomi lasts only a second and by the time they notice that jiraiyas chakra was altered the jutsu is already finish.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 16, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> I understand but it was just under my opinion that Itachi is stronger then all the sannin individually.



Than Sage Mode Jiraiya? Kishimoto seems to have gone out of his way to paint Jiraiya and Itachi as equals to boot.


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## Excalibur (Jun 16, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Than Sage Mode Jiraiya? Kishimoto seems to have gone out of his way to paint Jiraiya and Itachi as equals to boot.



How exactly?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 16, 2010)

He had Itachi basically say he wasn't sue if he could beat them, gave them both extremely impressive showings and deaths back to back and even gave them the equal highest stat totals.


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## Soul (Jun 16, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya knows how to break genjutsu.



Naruto did as well, and he failed.



> He's in Sage Mode, increasing resistance.



Not useful to avoid getting killed by a weapon.



> Oh, yeah, and Shima and Fukasaku are Genjutsu masters and can sense any alteration in chakra.



Ma and Pa are Genjutsu masters?
Since when?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 16, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Naruto did as well, and he failed.


Because he lacked the power for it. Jiraiya is smarter, way stronger and more experienced than Naruto was at that point




> Not useful to avoid getting killed by a weapon.


I'm sorry, I wasn'[t aware things that slice through stone and enhanced skin harder than stone that apparently come directly from Gedo Mazo is a sign of weakness




> Ma and Pa are Genjutsu masters?
> Since when?


Frog Song much? They even outright stated they had other Genjutsu.
Hell, Frog Song alone puts them to the rank of master, given the skill needed for it


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## Abinash Uzumaki (Jun 16, 2010)

as for me   itachi loses

amaterasu can't keep up jiraiya's speed

susanoo can't be activated for ever

tsukyomi jiraiya isn't that lame   he's specialist in releasing oneself from genjutsu


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## Cursed Avenger (Jun 16, 2010)

Just wanted to clear something up regarding Ma and Pa being able to detect if Jiraiya is put in genjtsu.



They could not tell that Jiraiya's chakra was being messed up by Nagato. Pa noticed the sword and then took it out.

And it's already been shown that normal, senjutsu, and Sharingan genjutsu can affect several people at once.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 16, 2010)

They noticed his chakra was being messed up. What was doing it is another matter. There's no way to tell they didn't as Nagato only activates that ability and Jiraiya immediately says his chakra is going crazy. In fact, as Ma and Pa are sensors, they should be able to. Karin has shown clearly she can detect when others are in Genjutsu. 

And show a Genjutsu from ITachi that affects several people at once.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 17, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Just wanted to clear something up regarding Ma and Pa being able to detect if Jiraiya is put in genjtsu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi has NEVER shown an AOE genjutsu even though he had multiple occasions to show one.


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## Kisame (Jun 17, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Itachi has NEVER shown an AOE genjutsu even though he had multiple occasions to show one.



true,he hasn't but he CAN

remember kakashi telling Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes when Itachi was about Tsukiyomi?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Naruto did as well, and he failed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Naruto was nowhere as experienced or powerful as Jiraiya at that point. 
He was also still relatively inexperienced with dealing with Genjutsu. There is a reason why he had a 2.5.

Jiraiya, on the other hand, knows a lot about Genjutsu and how to counter it, and fortunately has the perfect counters in Kage Bunshin and Boss Summons. 

Ma and Pa are Genjutsu masters. Don't you read the manga? Is Frog Song not a powerful Genjutsu?

As Lightysnake said, they're sensors, and plus they were firmly attached to Jiraiya's body then, I believe, they would have known if something was up with his chakra. 

Plus, the weapon which was used to kill Jiraiya came right from the Gedo Mazo. Their piercing power must not be underestimated. Itachi, sadly, apart from Susano'o and Amaterasu, has nothing which can really injure a Sage. 

I believe Itachi takes this, as his Susano'o seems too much for even someone of Jiraiya's calibre to deal with. His speed may be most impressive, but so is Susano'o's - and having a massive elongating sword that cut down the Yamata no Orochi, and seals anything it stabs, plus a massive, impenetrable shield which can also extend for providing an ultimate defense, isn't something Jiraiya can deal with. 

But people are grossly underestimating HM Jiraiya here.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 17, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> true,he hasn't but he CAN
> 
> remember kakashi telling Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes when Itachi was about Tsukiyomi?



 It proves that he can use genjutsu. Kakashi was afraid he would go after Kurenai and Asuma after him.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 17, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> It proves that he can use genjutsu. *Kakashi was afraid he would go after Kurenai and Asuma after him.*



Baseless assumption.


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## Kisame (Jun 17, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> It proves that he can use genjutsu. Kakashi was afraid he would go after Kurenai and Asuma after him.



no,It proves he can Multi-Tsukiyomi,It would be smarter if they all Opened their Eyes and try to take while he Genjutsus one of them.

Also,If he was really afraid he would go after Kurenai and Asuma after him,the idea of closing their eyes is bad,VERY bad.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 17, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Baseless assumption.



Kakashi & Co were all fighting in vicinity of one another. If Itachi could use tsukuyomi on multiple people, what stopped him from using it on all of them at the same time? You answer that



Garaiku said:


> no,It proves he can Multi-Tsukiyomi,It would be smarter if they all Opened their Eyes and try to take while he Genjutsus one of them.



Kakashi & Co were all fighting in vicinity of one another. If Itachi could use tsukuyomi on multiple people, what stopped him from using it on all of them at the same time? You answer that


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## Kisame (Jun 17, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Kakashi & Co were all fighting in vicinity of one another. If Itachi could use tsukuyomi on multiple people, what stopped him from using it on all of them at the same time? You answer that
> 
> 
> 
> Kakashi & Co were all fighting in vicinity of one another. If Itachi could use tsukuyomi on multiple people, what stopped him from using it on all of them at the same time? You answer that



umm..Because Kakashi told them to close their eyes? Because he can use Tsukiyomi on all 3 of them?


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 17, 2010)

Its seems people donot know what Tsukuyomi actually is and what it does.





> NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none
> 
> ...








> *
> -Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.
> *









> *
> -Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.**
> *










> no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.








> *
> no power to physically wound or kill,
> *




IT has been directly stated it CAN'T KILL





> * it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.
> *






Only cause mental damage, which theoricaly can be tanked by someone with high will power.



There is nothing that states that it is an AOE genjutsu.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 17, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Naruto was nowhere as experienced or powerful as Jiraiya at that point.
> He was also still relatively inexperienced with dealing with Genjutsu. There is a reason why he had a 2.5.
> 
> Jiraiya, on the other hand, knows a lot about Genjutsu and how to counter it, and fortunately has the perfect counters in Kage Bunshin and Boss Summons.
> ...



I tihnk it's also best not to overestimate Susanoo. It's not proven to be faster than Jiraiya who's so fast he makes the ground explode, and can use a Chou Oodama Rasengan where Susanoo isn't protected. The Yamata, honestly, has no speed feats and Orochimaru wasn't even trying to dodge.

Plus, there's still Yomi Numa, which might even bypass Susanoo


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## Kisame (Jun 17, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Its seems people donot know what Tsukuyomi actually is and what it does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i know it can't kill (though Kakashi said otherwise) but the point is that Kakashi knew about it and told them to close their Eyes meaning......IT CAN AFFECT MORE THAN A PERSON


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## Sanbi (Jun 17, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> i know it can't kill (though Kakashi said otherwise) but the point is that Kakashi knew about it and told them to close their Eyes meaning......IT CAN AFFECT MORE THAN A PERSON


DB's word > Kakashi's word, when did he say that either that 'Tsukuyomi can kill!!". I'd like to see that page.

No, Kakashi has little knowledge on Tsukuyomi since he has had no experiences with it. He just didn't want either of them trapped in genjutsu, since if any one of them got hit they would be done for with no back up, at the time. He thought he could resist it with his Sharingan, but was clearly wrong.


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## Kisame (Jun 17, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> DB's word > Kakashi's word, when did he say that either that 'Tsukuyomi can kill!!". I'd like to see that page.
> 
> No, Kakashi has little knowledge on Tsukuyomi since he has had no experiences with it. He just didn't want either of them trapped in genjutsu, since if any one of them got hit they would be done for with no back up, at the time. He thought he could resist it with his Sharingan, but was clearly wrong.





and did the databook state that Tsukiyomi can Only be used on one person at a time?

and check the page before it,Kakashi knew he was going to use Tsukiyomi since Itachi told him,and told Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes.
at any rate,closing their Eyes to a Non-Multi-Genjutsu is the worst thing you can do,and since Kakashi had prior Knowledge of Tsukiyomi,saying he had little Knowledge is a basless assumption,since nothing implies it.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 17, 2010)

And? If their eyes were open, he could genjutsu ANY of them. Not necessarily all.


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## Kisame (Jun 17, 2010)

it was the worst thing to do to close their eyes,they couldve opened it and attacked him while he is genjutsuing any of them.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 17, 2010)

Or he could've just switched to Genjutsuing the others


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## Kisame (Jun 17, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Or he could've just switched to Genjutsuing the others



so he can genjutsu Asuma,Kurenai and Kakashi one after another while they watch?itachi must be really fast


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## Cursed Avenger (Jun 17, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Itachi has NEVER shown an AOE genjutsu even though he had multiple occasions to show one.



I'm not arguing that, I was pointing out that it is possible to cast a Sharingan genjutsu on multiple opponents. While I also think that he might not be able to since he hasn't shown to do so, it's also difficult to believe that someone who is so proficient at using the Sharingan and genjutsu can't put multiple people in one.

Then there's also the matter of him being a "good guy." If he used it and put them under one, what options would he up have to avoid having Kisame or himself kill them?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2010)

Itachi may be a Genjutsu master, but he has yet to show a Genjutsu which can affect multiple opponents. Feats come before hype in the Battledome. 

And Tsukuyomi *cannot *kill. It was said in the Databook that Genjutsu *never* kills.


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## Thunder (Jun 17, 2010)

I think people are misinterpreting that scan. Just because Kakashi told them to close their eyes, doesn't mean it can effect them all. If Itachi chose to Genjutsu Asuma or Kurenai, the results would have been deadly. None of them have Sharingans. It was just a precaution. 

If Tsukuyomi is an AoE jutsu, Zetsu would have been caught in it as well as Sasuke. They were observing the match between them and looked at Itachi's eyes. It's that simple.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 17, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> I'm not arguing that, I was pointing out that it is possible to cast a Sharingan genjutsu on multiple opponents. While I also think that he might not be able to since he hasn't shown to do so, it's also difficult to believe that someone who is so proficient at using the Sharingan and genjutsu can't put multiple people in one.



If he has never shown it, it does not exist in the battledome. You know that rule, right? This is like me saying that Pa and Ma are genjutsu types, they possess arguably the strongest or second strongest genjutsu, therefore they should be able to cast a genjutsu without the victim realizing they are in a genjutsu. It does not hold water



Cursed Avenger said:


> Then there's also the matter of him being a "good guy." If he used it and put them under one, what options would he up have to avoid having Kisame or himself kill them?



What options did he have in the first place??????? It is not like he knew Gai was coming. The whole good guy thing is a croak of you know what


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## Cursed Avenger (Jun 17, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> If he has never shown it, it does not exist in the battledome. You know that rule, right? This is like me saying that Pa and Ma are genjutsu types, they possess arguably the strongest or second strongest genjutsu, therefore they should be able to cast a genjutsu without the victim realizing they are in a genjutsu. It does not hold water



Kakashi put two Root Anbu in a genjutsu with one Sharingan and his genjutsu stat and skill aren't anywhere near Itachi's. Sure there is a lot of substantial evidence but what part of the Sharingan putting multiple opponents in a genjutsu doesn't hold water? 



> What options did he have in the first place??????? It is not like he knew Gai was coming. The whole good guy thing is a croak of you know what



If Gai hadn't shown up, he would have found some way to run away 

Not killing any Leaf ninja, or Sasuke, or capturing Naruto when he could have is hardly something that can be considered croak.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 17, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Kakashi put two Root Anbu in a genjutsu with one Sharingan and his genjutsu stat and skill aren't anywhere near Itachi's. Sure there is a lot of substantial evidence but what part of the Sharingan putting multiple opponents in a genjutsu doesn't hold water?



That is Kakashi's genjutsu not Itachi's. Should we assume that Kakashi can use all of Itachi's genjutsu because he has the sharingan????? HUH??? 




Cursed Avenger said:


> If Gai hadn't shown up, he would have found some way to run away
> 
> Not killing any Leaf ninja, or Sasuke, or capturing Naruto when he could have is hardly something that can be considered croak.




So you are saying that your original argument was a croak of shit in the first place. If he could find a way regardless then there is no need to hold back as you suggested. Whether or not he had used tsukuyomi on all of them, according to you he would have found a way to get away without killing them


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> That is Kakashi's genjutsu not Itachi's. Should we assume that Kakashi can use all of Itachi's genjutsu because he has the sharingan????? HUH???
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Calm down, dude.

But I agree, Itachi has not shown any AoE Genjutsu. Nor is there anything indicating he is capable of performing it yet.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 17, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Kakashi put two Root Anbu in a genjutsu with one Sharingan and his genjutsu stat and skill aren't anywhere near Itachi's. Sure there is a lot of substantial evidence but what part of the Sharingan putting multiple opponents in a genjutsu doesn't hold water?


Yes, but we need evidence Itachi can. Not saying he can't, myself




> If Gai hadn't shown up, he would have found some way to run away
> 
> Not killing any Leaf ninja, or Sasuke, or capturing Naruto when he could have is hardly something that can be considered croak.



Remember a lot of this was firm chance and nothing more:

Kisame was about kill Kurenai and Gai...and maim Naruto. He was interrupted both times. He couldn't have known things would happen. If not for Rock Lee, his brutalizing of Sasuke would've ended in Sasuke arriving at Orochimaru's doorstep.


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## Sanbi (Jun 17, 2010)

"Why didn't he just kill me?" That isn't "Tsukuyomi can kill". That was just to show the torment Kakashi just endured. Itachi didn't kill him because he couldn't, and the databook supports it.



> and did the databook state that Tsukiyomi can Only be used on one person at a time?





> NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none
> 
> ...



No but it only talks about one victim and never says it can catch more then one person.



> and check the page before it,Kakashi knew he was going to use Tsukiyomi since Itachi told him,and told Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes.


Because he didn't want them getting caught in genjutsu, not because he could genjutsu them all at the same time. That doesn't mean he can't genjutsu them all individually.



> at any rate,closing their Eyes to a Non-Multi-Genjutsu is the worst thing you can do,


If he knew about Tsukuyomi, then he knew about how fast it can be cast. Nothing implies that Kakashi thinks they would all be caught at the same time, that only implies he thinks they might get caught in genjutsu.



> and since Kakashi had prior Knowledge of Tsukiyomi,saying he had little Knowledge is a basless assumption,since nothing implies it.


Really? When did Kakashi get this knowledge, and when did he see it?


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## kush9 (Jun 17, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> "Why didn't he just kill me?" That isn't "Tsukuyomi can kill". That was just to show the torment Kakashi just endured. Itachi didn't kill him because he couldn't, and the databook supports it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hate to update you but rinnegan is now the most powerful dojutsu now but itachi is the badest among the uchiha someone ask me who will win in a fight out of goku vs superman and when i said goku he jump all over me like he had seen it some where but me looking at superman he never fights no 1 who is powerful but when u say itachi your talking about the best of the clan but madara and sasuke have not showed me anything yet


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## Cursed Avenger (Jun 17, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> That is Kakashi's genjutsu not Itachi's. Should we assume that Kakashi can use all of Itachi's genjutsu because he has the sharingan????? HUH???



He used a genjutsu with a basic 3 tomoe Sharingan. There is no mention if it is a genjutsu specific to his Sharingan or just a regular Sharingan genjutsu. My point was that Kakashi proved that you can use _the Sharingan on multiple people_. 



> So you are saying that your original argument was a croak of shit in the first place. If he could find a way regardless then there is no need to hold back as you suggested. Whether or not he had used tsukuyomi on all of them, according to you he would have found a way to get away without killing them



No, not at all  Of course he would need to hold back. He used a Tsukiyomi on Kakashi when he could have used Amaterasu instead on the whole lot of them. He wasn't trying to kill them and avoiding a scenario where he might have had to. 



Lightysnake said:


> Yes, but we need evidence Itachi can. Not saying he can't, myself



Which is wht I said that all we have is substantial evidence. You can either use it to say it's possible he can or he can't.



> Remember a lot of this was firm chance and nothing more:
> 
> Kisame was about kill Kurenai and Gai...and maim Naruto. He was interrupted both times. He couldn't have known things would happen. If not for Rock Lee, his brutalizing of Sasuke would've ended in Sasuke arriving at Orochimaru's doorstep.



It's a bit of a stretch to say he was going to kill them. Itachi was the one who prevented him from still attacking them saying they needed to retreat. Let's not forget that the person who put the woman under a genjutsu to lure Jiraiya away was none other than Itachi as well.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 17, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> He used a genjutsu with a basic 3 tomoe Sharingan. There is no mention if it is a genjutsu specific to his Sharingan or just a regular Sharingan genjutsu. My point was that Kakashi proved that you can use _the Sharingan on multiple people_.



The sharingan is simply a tool that allows you to master genjutsu. Which genjutsu one uses depends on the individual. Sasuke's genjutsu are very different from Kakashi's, which are differnt from Itachi's. 



Cursed Avenger said:


> No, not at all  Of course he would need to hold back. He used a Tsukiyomi on Kakashi when he could have used Amaterasu instead on the whole lot of them. He wasn't trying to kill them and avoiding a scenario where he might have had to.



Using amaterasu on all three of them would have required more chakra and as we know he is not overflowing with chakra. So, the idea that he could have used amaterasu on all three of them if he wanted does not make sense


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## Lightysnake (Jun 17, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> Which is wht I said that all we have is substantial evidence. You can either use it to say it's possible he can or he can't.


I'm saying it's probably he does




> It's a bit of a stretch to say he was going to kill them. Itachi was the one who prevented him from still attacking them saying they needed to retreat. Let's not forget that the person who put the woman under a genjutsu to lure Jiraiya away was none other than Itachi as well.


Actually, Itachi was the one who ordered their deaths. THEN Gai arrived and he retreated. It's not really saintly behavior...

And luring Jiraiya away counts against him as he couldn't be sure when Jiraiya would figure it out and only Sasuke's coincidental arrival prevent Kisame from harming Naruto.


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## Sanbi (Jun 17, 2010)

kush9 said:


> hate to update you but rinnegan is now the most powerful dojutsu now but itachi is the badest among the uchiha someone ask me who will win in a fight out of goku vs superman and when i said goku he jump all over me like he had seen it some where but me looking at superman he never fights no 1 who is powerful but when u say itachi your talking about the best of the clan but madara and sasuke have not showed me anything yet



  How does this relate at all to what I was talking about?


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## Michael (Jun 17, 2010)

It doesn't.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 17, 2010)

> -Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.



This can also be read: attacks from the spiritual realm have cannot kill one physically, so it attack the mind instead. 

It's self-evident that enough mental torture can kill. It isn't attacking the body - that's all the text is saying.


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## Cursed Avenger (Jun 17, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> The sharingan is simply a tool that allows you to master genjutsu. Which genjutsu one uses depends on the individual. Sasuke's genjutsu are very different from Kakashi's, which are differnt from Itachi's.



You're missing the point. I'm not saying that Itachi is going to use whatever genjutsu Kakashi used to put the Root Anbu to sleep. I'm saying that Kakashi demonstrated that it is possible to catch multiple opponents in a Sharingan genjutsu. He could have shown them sheeps and feathers, who really cares, it doesn't change the fact that using a basic Sharingan allowed him to do it. 



> Using amaterasu on all three of them would have required more chakra and as we know he is not overflowing with chakra. So, the idea that he could have used amaterasu on all three of them if he wanted does not make sense



After running away from Gai and co, they went to get Naruto shortly after. Itachi used another Tsukiyomi on Sasuke and then used an Amaterasu of considerable size. Judging from the size of the hole in the wall and how close Kakashi, Asuma, and Kurenai were to each other, I believe they would have been hit with it as well. So yes it would make sense, considering how much chakra he had left. 



Lightysnake said:


> I'm saying it's probably he does



I think so too but there's nothing that actually proves it. Just substantial evidence you can gather from other sources. 



> Actually, Itachi was the one who ordered their deaths. THEN Gai arrived and he retreated. It's not really saintly behavior...



True enough. But I did say that he was trying to avoid having to kill them or end up in a situation where that might happen. And odd isn't it that Gai showed up exactly after he told them Akatsuki's plans and after he told Kisame to capture Kakashi.



> And luring Jiraiya away counts against him as he couldn't be sure when Jiraiya would figure it out and only Sasuke's coincidental arrival prevent Kisame from harming Naruto.



Fair enough but Itachi wasn't exactly in a rush to capture Naruto either. Imo, it seemed that he was trying to stall when he told Naruto he wanted to talk to him and for him to come along with him. And once again, odd isn't it that he knew that Sasuke had shown up without even looking.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 17, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> I think so too but there's nothing that actually proves it. Just substantial evidence you can gather from other sources.


Yeah, I agree. Hence why it probably can't be used



> True enough. But I did say that he was trying to avoid having to kill them or end up in a situation where that might happen. And odd isn't it that Gai showed up exactly after he told them Akatsuki's plans and after he told Kisame to capture Kakashi.


It's a lucky break. Even Itachi is visibly surprised. People show up at just the right time in Naruto. Remember Naruto showed up just the right second before Sasuke killed Sakura? Or Kakashi rescuing Sakura? 
I'm not going to deny Itachi was in there wanting to kill them. But was he too willing to do so for someone who supposedly a good guy? Oh yeah.
Hell, he rammed a kunai in Kakashi's back without knowing it was a Mizu bunshin.




> Fair enough but Itachi wasn't exactly in a rush to capture Naruto either. Imo, it seemed that he was trying to stall when he told Naruto he wanted to talk to him and for him to come along with him. And once again, odd isn't it that he knew that Sasuke had shown up without even looking.


No, but how could he know Sasuke would arrive? Remember, the first thing the Jonin decided was "Sasuke cannot discover Itachi is here." Then Aoba accidentally blurted it out, sending him on the warpath. Maybe Itachi would've stalled, but he was taking his sweet time stopping Kisame who was very visibly relishing the prospect of turning Naruto into a paraplegic. Itachi's perceptive so of course he noticed Sasuke, but Jiraiya had to literally intercept Kisame midswing.That doesn't tell me Itachi was going to lift a finger to rescue Naruto, particularly when he participated in the deaths of 7 other Jinchuuriki without batting an eye.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 17, 2010)

You arguing that Itachi had murderous intent is absurd. Kishi said he was a hero and a gentle man. He was a pacifist who wouldn't even kill Orochimaru.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 17, 2010)

Ummm, he did just that. Or consigned him to eternal oblivion. 

That sweet and gentle man  and was 

Why, he only 
And reacted with surprise when Gai


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## Jinnobi (Jun 17, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Ummm, he did just that. Or consigned him to eternal oblivion.
> 
> That sweet and gentle man  and was
> 
> ...



Kishi and I completely disagree with you, and I will not enter into a debate about it. You refuse to read between the lines. 

As I said before, you oppose Itachi at every opportunity and in every way.

*Haters gon' hate.*


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## Lightysnake (Jun 18, 2010)

Kishi states he's a hero for what he did in the past. The way he is portrayed is at odds with this.
You can't portray someone as a cruel, sadistic villain who goes above and beyond to hurt people, then go "Psych, they're good!"

Doesn't work.


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## Kisame (Jun 18, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> "Why didn't he just kill me?" That isn't "Tsukuyomi can kill". That was just to show the torment Kakashi just endured. Itachi didn't kill him because he couldn't, and the databook supports it.?



Itachi didn't kill him because he didn't want to,and Kakashi knew that he couldv'e been killed.
and the Databooks did not say "Tsukiyomi affects One Person Only" It was talking about a victim in General.



> No but it only talks about one victim and never says it can catch more then one person.



It also does not eliminate the possibility of Multi-Tsukiyomi,and by what Kakashi said I have to agree.



> Because he didn't want them getting caught in genjutsu, not because he could genjutsu them all at the same time. That doesn't mean he can't genjutsu them all individually.



Kakashi had prior knowledge of Tsukiyomi,and if he didn't want them to get caught they could have just opened their eyes,and attacked while he genjutsus any of them,and to close their eyes against Itachi is the worst thing possible.



> If he knew about Tsukuyomi, then he knew about how fast it can be cast. Nothing implies that Kakashi thinks they would all be caught at the same time, that only implies he thinks they might get caught in genjutsu.
> ?



Kakashi had to open his Eyes so he can face Itachi,and he had to take Tsukiyomi cause closing his eyes is a bad Idea,and So what if they get caught in it? if it was really a non-multi genjutsu why would he tell the two of them to close their eyes?
its like your saying they will be more damaged than him which Itachi states no one can resist besides an Uchiha.




> Really? When did Kakashi get this knowledge, and when did he see it?



Itachi told him he was going to show him why the Uchiha clan was so feared,Kakashi was like "oh...no"
anyway here is the scan:


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## Kisame (Jun 18, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kishi states he's a hero for what he did in the past. The way he is portrayed is at odds with this.
> You can't portray someone as a cruel, sadistic villain who goes above and beyond to hurt people, then go "Psych, they're good!"
> 
> Doesn't work.



I personally prefer Jiraiya cause of his personality,but If it came down to It,no matter what Itachi did,he was always more Interesting and more of a Hero than Jiraiya,I mean Itachi basically gave up his life for the sake of the Village and Sasuke,he killed his own clan to prevent a Ninja war,and agreed to live as a Criminal for the rest of his life,he also gave sasuke his powers and planned to die by his side,he was also keeping Madara from reaching Konoha.


Now take a look at Jiraiya,all he did was write some books,sure he trained Minato,but he couldn't help him in the Kyuubi night as he was probably on one of his "researches",and he couldn't stop Orochimaru from killing their Sensei,If he was Stronger than Orochimaru,how come he wasted all his time fighting his summons LOL,he didn't even attend the funeral,he also trained Nagato,but the guy alrady had the Rennigan so whatever..,Jiraiya knows what I'm talking about very clearly,the best thing he did was naming Naruto,and entrusting his Way of the ninja with him,and Discovering the secret of Nagato,and finding out about Pain's secret even if it would cost him his life.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 18, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> I personally prefer Jiraiya cause of his personality,but If it came down to It,no matter what Itachi did,he was always more Interesting and more of a Hero than Jiraiya,I mean Itachi basically gave up his life for the sake of the Village and Sasuke,he killed his own clan to prevent a Ninja war,and agreed to live as a Criminal for the rest of his life,he also gave sasuke his powers and planned to die by his side,he was also keeping Madara from reaching Konoha.


Name me one innocent person Jiraiya tried to kill.

Frankly, the world is suffering a LOT thanks to Itachi's stupid martyr complex



> Now take a look at Jiraiya,all he did was write some books,sure he trained Minato,but he couldn't help him in the Kyuubi night as he was probably on one of his "researches",and he couldn't stop Orochimaru from killing their Sensei,If he was Stronger than Orochimaru,how come he wasted all his time fighting his summons LOL,he didn't even attend the funeral,he also trained Nagato,but the guy alrady had the Rennigan so whatever..,Jiraiya knows what I'm talking about very clearly,the best thing he did was naming Naruto,and entrusting his Way of the ninja with him,and Discovering the secret of Nagato,and finding out about Pain's secret even if it would cost him his life.



Umm...Yeah, Jiraiya kind of did a lot more. Those...1800 or so missions are testament to that. Jiraiya was likely not in Konoha when the Kyuubi attacked and spent a decade keeping an eye on Orochimaru and guarding the Leaf. Not only that, when Orochimaru invaded, Jiraqiya was elsewhere in the village and a very far distance from Hiruzen and Orochimaru, who were trapped in a barrier. When he learned Orochimaru was there in person, it was too late.

He also trained Nagato to actually USE the Rinnegan...it's kind of important when you're told you'll train people who will save or destroy the world


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## Sanbi (Jun 18, 2010)

Hold the phone. I want _proof_ Tsukuyomi can be used on multiple people and kill. I don't want speculation, because if you want to have it used in this fight there has to be proof it can be used in the first place. 

So far all I've gotten is maybes. The DB doesn't mention a _single thing_ about catching more then one person, and that is something pretty important to miss and only mentions one victim when describing it's effects. The DB even states no physical injury or death can befall someone from genjutsu, only mental strain. Jiraiya willed himself back from death, whatever torture Itachi tries to give to Jiraiya wouldn't damage him as much as Kakashi, in fact I see him tanking it. Also tell me, how are you supposed to kill someone by manipulating the chakra in their brain? Kakashi telling Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes is no factual proof he can use it on multiple people at a time. That only proves Kakashi doesn't think they could tank his genjutsu and he doesn't want them caught by a genjutsu. Nothing implies that they would all be caught at the same time.

Also Jiraiya is way stronger then Orochimaru in HM, and don't even try and compare the two in front of Itachi they have different styles, and Orochimaru's style didn't fit well when pitted against Itachi since Orochimaru can't tank genjutsu or Tokutsa. Jiraiya doesn't just tank attacks and with two genjutsu masters on his shoulders as well as a good genjutsu defense he shouldn't be affected by genjutsu.


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## Kisame (Jun 18, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Name me one innocent person Jiraiya tried to kill.
> 
> Frankly, the world is suffering a LOT thanks to Itachi's stupid martyr complex



Explain please.



Lightysnake said:


> Umm...Yeah, Jiraiya kind of did a lot more. Those...1800 or so missions are testament to that. Jiraiya was likely not in Konoha when the Kyuubi attacked and spent a decade keeping an eye on Orochimaru and guarding the Leaf. Not only that, when Orochimaru invaded, Jiraqiya was elsewhere in the village and a very far distance from Hiruzen and Orochimaru, who were trapped in a barrier. When he learned Orochimaru was there in person, it was too late.
> 
> He also trained Nagato to actually USE the Rinnegan...it's kind of important when you're told you'll train people who will save or destroy the world



Yet he was late when the time came and did not honor his master by attending the funeral.
I agree with everything else,but still Itachi>Jiraiya Hero wise.


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## Sanbi (Jun 18, 2010)

Jiraiya > Itachi world importance wise. Without Jiraiya there would be no Akatsuki, Hanzo wouldn't be dead, Minato wouldn't be trained properly, Naruto wouldn't get the toad contract and SM etc.

Just my take on it


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 18, 2010)

Let me ask one question Itachifans


Why the fuck did Itachi not kill Oro in Akatsuki when he had the chance?

 And killing akatsuki members is not a big deal Kakuzu did that all the time! 

He could order the murder of Asuma and Kuranei without a second though but he couldn't kill the most dangerous man to konoha.


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## Kisame (Jun 18, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Hold the phone. I want _proof_ Tsukuyomi can be used on multiple people and kill. I don't want speculation, because if you want to have it used in this fight there has to be proof it can be used in the first place.
> 
> So far all I've gotten is maybes. The DB doesn't mention a _single thing_ about catching more then one person, and that is something pretty important to miss and only mentions one victim when describing it's effects. The DB even states no physical injury or death can befall someone from genjutsu, only mental strain. Jiraiya willed himself back from death, whatever torture Itachi tries to give to Jiraiya wouldn't damage him as much as Kakashi, in fact I see him tanking it. Also tell me, how are you supposed to kill someone by manipulating the chakra in their brain? Kakashi telling Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes is no factual proof he can use it on multiple people at a time. That only proves Kakashi doesn't think they could tank his genjutsu and he doesn't want them caught by a genjutsu. Nothing implies that they would all be caught at the same time.



I'm dropping this,I appearantly can't convince u and vice versa.



Sanbi said:


> Also Jiraiya is way stronger then Orochimaru in HM, and don't even try and compare the two in front of Itachi they have different styles, and Orochimaru's style didn't fit well when pitted against Itachi since Orochimaru can't tank genjutsu or Tokutsa. Jiraiya doesn't just tank attacks and with two genjutsu masters on his shoulders as well as a good genjutsu defense he shouldn't be affected by genjutsu.



way stronger?NO.
Jiraiya can tank Tsotsuka???LOL!.

Orochimaru can deal with Amaterasu better than jiraiya can,and Jiraiya can't tank tsukiyomi,but I agree it would have less effect.

and Tsukiyomi will effect him,just not to the extent it did Kakashi's.

anyway,You should know that I believe HM Jiraiya is Equal to Itachi.


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## Kisame (Jun 18, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Let me ask one question Itachifans
> 
> 
> Why the fuck did Itachi not kill Oro in Akatsuki when he had the chance?
> ...



How will Itachi know that Orochimaru would be after his brother?
and how do you know that if Orochimaru escaped or not?he may have escaped,right?


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## Sanbi (Jun 18, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> I'm dropping this,I appearantly can't convince u and vice versa.


I'm just gonna say this: with no valid proof, you can't use the Tsukuyomi affects multiple people argument in this debate. That belongs in the KL.




> way stronger?NO.


Base Orochimaru with no Edo Tensei? Yes. Way stronger might have been a bit exaggerated, but he is stronger.



> Jiraiya can tank Tsotsuka???LOL!.


 No one said that, I said he wouldn't tank. He dodges attacks.



> Orochimaru can deal with Amaterasu better than jiraiya can,and Jiraiya can't tank tsukiyomi,but I agree it would have less effect.


Jiraiya can outrun Amaterasu long enough to block LoS. Let's put it this way: he would still be able to fight after Tsukuyomi. 



> and Tsukiyomi will effect him,just not to the extent it did Kakashi's.


If he can will himself back to life he can still fight after Tsukuyomi.



> anyway,You should know that I believe HM Jiraiya is Equal to Itachi.


I think they are close to equal and either can win but I give Jiraiya a slight advantage when in HM with Shima and Fukasaku on his shoulders. They are underestimated.


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 18, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> How will Itachi know that Orochimaru would be after his brother?



Oro is an enemy of Konoha! That should be enough reason if according to you guys"he was with konoha" bullshit excuse you claim



> and how do you know that if Orochimaru escaped or not?he may have escaped,right?




He had Orochimaru PARALYZED! AND STILL HE WENT FOR THE* HAND *INSTEAD OF *DECAPITATING* HIM and killing him.


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## Kisame (Jun 18, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Jiraiya > Itachi world importance wise. Without Jiraiya there would be no Akatsuki, Hanzo wouldn't be dead, Minato wouldn't be trained properly, Naruto wouldn't get the toad contract and SM etc.
> 
> Just my take on it



without Itachi,there would be no Konoha,Twice,Sasuke would have Died,and evrybody knows about Jiraiya not Itachi,If they all knew about The truth of Itachi,he would Stomp everything Jiraiya has done.he also gave sasuke his power ups.

And Akatsuki was founded by Madara,Jiraiya makes no difference,Pain killed Hanzo,Jiraiya had no Influence.


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## Kisame (Jun 18, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Oro is an enemy of Konoha! That should be enough reason if according to you guys"he was with konoha" bullshit excuse you claim.




Enemy Of KONOHA! not SASUKE!



> He had Orochimaru PARALYZED! AND STILL HE WENT FOR THE* HAND *INSTEAD OF *DECAPITATING* HIM and killing him.



Okay,but It was probably because he was a Pacifist.


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 18, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> way stronger?NO.




In HM yes.



Lets look at a common fleat

Oro vs Kn4 ro gets bitchslapped and nearly dies has to retreat, could do Jack shit

Jiraiya vs Kn4: Jiraiya beats him though he gets seriously injured he won.



> Jiraiya can tank Tsotsuka???LOL!.



Noone can tank Totsoka! But block it yes!

Gama bun,ken and Hiro all have giant weapons, Ken has a shield, those things can easily block Totsuka.



> Orochimaru can deal with Amaterasu better than jiraiya can



Gaara blocked it with his Sand, Just replace Gaara's sand with Jiraiya's hair. He can easily replace his hair by growing them back and chopping off the burned up parts.


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## Sanbi (Jun 18, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> without Itachi,there would be no Konoha,Twice,


Twice? There would be a Konoha, just a very weakened one.



> Sasuke would have Died,and evrybody knows about Jiraiya not Itachi,If they all knew about The truth of Itachi,he would Stomp everything Jiraiya has done.he also gave sasuke his power ups.
> 
> And Akatsuki was founded by Madara,Jiraiya makes no difference,Pain killed Hanzo,Jiraiya had no Influence.


He greatly affected the whole world with his decisions. He trained Naruto and was one of the greater influences on him, even teaching him one of his most prominent techniques, Rasengan.

 That wasn't all, he also taught Yahiko, Konan and Nagato ninjutsu and became their sensei for a while. Had it not been for Jiraiya's choice to be kind to these orphans, which both Sannin would have just left to rot, the world would have been completely different. Ame would not have been in a Civil War if not for Jiraiya's, the Orphans would not have had the power to fight Hanzou without Jiraiya's guidance, nor would have Nagato have killed _Hanzou_ and affect Ame so much. Akatsuki would have never been formed had it not been for Jiraiya's teaching, and I hope I don't have to explain how much of an impact they had on the ninja world.

 Jiraiya also ended up teaching Minato and he helped shape Minato into the ninja he was before his death, as well as being a great impact on him as a man saying "You're a man of true skill...an example we should all follow. I can't think of a finer shinobi then you."

He was even the person who was sent on the task to retrieve Tsunade, and due to his efforts, and due to his decision, at the councils disapproval, to bring Naruto along he also indirectly saved Tsunade and put faith in her, and due to his decision Tsunade decided to become the fifth Hokage, and we all know how much that affect Konoha and the world.

 Jiraiya then also fulfilled the Toad Sage's prophecy teaching a pupil that will bring a great revolution to the world bringing peace to the world or utterly destroy it, and that speaks for it self on how important he was stating how he was their master and their teacher. He even stated that Jiraiya's choice would directly affect the fate of the world. His choice did in fact effect the world greatly. 

He faced Pain, gave great information to Konoha concerning Pain protecting thousands and helped Konoha gain info on Pain and combat him effectively. Has Jiraiya not existed Konoha wouldn't even been attacked in the first place! Had Jiraiya not taken Naruto as his pupil, Naruto would not have learned Rasengan that early, he would not have as great control over the Kyuubi, Fukasaku would have never taken on Naruto as an apprentice and teach him SM, nor would have Naruto have adopted Jiraiya's ideology that later swayed Nagato's heart to save all of the dead Konoha people like Kakashi, Hinata, Shizune, and Fukasaku.

Yeah, I think Jiraiya affected the world the most.

Also


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## Kisame (Jun 18, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> In HM yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



we didn't see what happened between Jiraiya Vs.kn4,and Orochimaru was sick.
remember Jiraiya failing to bring Oro back?
remember Oro saying there was still a gap and Jiraiya didn't retaliate?

anyway Jiraiya in HM he is stronger than Oro,but not by far.


Dariustwinblade said:


> Noone can tank Totsoka! But block it yes!
> 
> Gama bun,ken and Hiro all have giant weapons, Ken has a shield, those things can easily block Totsuka.



u can block it if ur fast enough,last I checked,Orochimaru was staring at susanoo and didn't realize he was hit until AFTER the stab went through him,and those toads have nothib\ng that can hurt susanoo,though Jiraiya can use Yomi Numa.



Dariustwinblade said:


> Gaara blocked it with his Sand, Just replace Gaara's sand with Jiraiya's hair. He can easily replace his hair by growing them back and chopping off the burned up parts.



Jiraiya can grow back his hair? he will be bold by the time he dodges a few Amaterasus LOL!he can increase it size,but he cant do that if there is no hair.
but yeah,Itachi cant really spam MS or keep them for long either,he also has bad stamina


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 18, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> without Itachi,there would be no Konoha,Twice,Sasuke would have Died,and evrybody knows about Jiraiya not Itachi,If they all knew about The truth of Itachi,he would Stomp everything Jiraiya has done.he also gave sasuke his power ups.




What! every thing Itachi is about is about Sasuke not Naruto! 

Let me explain Jiraiya trained Minato, and thus without Minato there would be no Konoha, Naruto. 

Jiraiya trained and raised Naruto gave him his new goal.


THE WHOLE STORY IS CALLED NARUTO! Because of Jiraiya book. He influence Minato and Naruto. He is the reason Naruto wanted power. Itachi is only related to Sasuke. Sasuke dying a wouldnot effect *Naruto*. In the same way as it would effect if Jiraiya didnot exist.


His role in *Naruto's* story and relevance >>>>>> Itachi's role in Sasuke story in relevance



> And Akatsuki was founded by Madara



Jiraiya was the first to find out that there was an organisation called akatsuki




> Jiraiya makes no difference
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 18, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> we didn't see what happened between Jiraiya Vs.kn4,and Orochimaru was sick.



Orochimaru was fine until his body started rejecting him due to using so many taxing jutsu.

Jiraiya didn't even want to kill Naruto.


> remember Jiraiya failing to bring Oro back?



Yea! 30 years ago, off planel

Remember Oro trying to kill Jiraiya, he didnot retaliate.


> remember Oro saying there was still a gap and Jiraiya didn't retaliate?



Again Oro is cocky he would never Acknowledge Jiraiya



> u can block it if ur fast enough,last I checked,Orochimaru was staring at susanoo and didn't realize he was hit until AFTER the stab went through him,and those toads have nothib\ng that can hurt susanoo,though Jiraiya can use Yomi Numa.




Gamabunta dodged a  , Susanoo hasn't tanked anything on that level

Pls see link above



> Jiraiya can grow back his hair? he will be bold by the time he dodges a few Amaterasus LOL!he can increase it size,but he cant do that if there is no hair.



What are you takling about! If Jiraiya is bald he can still regrow his hair straight from the scalp!

That is basically what Ranji Shingami is.


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## Cursed Avenger (Jun 18, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It's a lucky break. Even Itachi is visibly surprised. People show up at just the right time in Naruto. Remember Naruto showed up just the right second before Sasuke killed Sakura? Or Kakashi rescuing Sakura?
> I'm not going to deny Itachi was in there wanting to kill them. But was he too willing to do so for someone who supposedly a good guy? Oh yeah.
> Hell, he rammed a kunai in Kakashi's back without knowing it was a Mizu bunshin.



It's not like he hasn't killed anyone before. This doesn't change that he's good guy. I'm just going along with how Kishi has portrayed him as now and trying to apply that to when he was introduced. 

When was the last time a kunai wound ever killed anyone 



> No, but how could he know Sasuke would arrive? Remember, the first thing the Jonin decided was "Sasuke cannot discover Itachi is here." Then Aoba accidentally blurted it out, sending him on the warpath. Maybe Itachi would've stalled, but he was taking his sweet time stopping Kisame who was very visibly relishing the prospect of turning Naruto into a paraplegic. Itachi's perceptive so of course he noticed Sasuke, but Jiraiya had to literally intercept Kisame midswing.That doesn't tell me Itachi was going to lift a finger to rescue Naruto, particularly when he participated in the deaths of 7 other Jinchuuriki without batting an eye.



Like you said, Itachi is perceptive, how would he not know that Jiraiya would show up eventually. I didn't say he would have saved Naruto nor that he was a saint. He'd obviously gotten his hands dirty like any other ninja. But Kishi has made it out to look like he had go against his nature to do so.


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## justarandomguy (Jun 18, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Orochimaru was fine until his body started rejecting him due to using so many taxing jutsu.
> 
> Jiraiya didn't even want to kill Naruto.
> 
> ...


 
susano can be set up very fast:, and that may have been only partial usano that blocked kirin. 
and an _incomplete_ form blocked a powerful attack here: the susano can tank almost any attack. tanking a kirin that moves at 1/1000 of a second is more impressive than dodging the shukaku's attack.

    if amaterasu burns jiraya's hair defense, it will keep burning, since it is impossible to put it out. and if jiraya gets his hair burned, he dies when amaterasu reaches his scalp.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 18, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> if amaterasu burns jiraya's hair defense, it will keep burning, since it is impossible to put it out. and if jiraya gets his hair burned, he dies when amaterasu reaches his scalp.



In case you forgot, Jiraiya can seal amaterasu


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## Lightysnake (Jun 18, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> It's not like he hasn't killed anyone before. This doesn't change that he's good guy. I'm just going along with how Kishi has portrayed him as now and trying to apply that to when he was introduced.


Yes, but there's a sincere whiplash to all this when you consider some really awful things Itachi did that he went out of his way to do. The way to make a hero is not to tell us that he's a hero. That leads to things like Designated Hero when they get away with terrible, awful things because "We're the good guys."
That isn't good writing. 




> When was the last time a kunai wound ever killed anyone


Ask Yahiko?




> Like you said, Itachi is perceptive, how would he not know that Jiraiya would show up eventually. I didn't say he would have saved Naruto nor that he was a saint. He'd obviously gotten his hands dirty like any other ninja. But Kishi has made it out to look like he had go against his nature to do so.



He loved and wanted the best for Naruto. Maiming its future seems counterproductive. If Naruto was maimed, Kisame would've taken him.


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## Griever (Jun 19, 2010)

This fight can go either way, though i will have to give the advantage to Jiraiya here because of Ma and Pa fused to his shoulders which would make Genjutsu little no non effective against him, as well as the fact that Jiraiya has already been shown to be able to seal Amaterasu with his "fire element sealing jutsu" (i think that's what it's called) and i don't know if the sword of totsuka can seal the swamp of the underworld.. so i'll just leave that alone.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> The clones would pull him out of the Swamp.



That's stupid... and what is Jiraiya doing while the clones are pulling itachi out of the swamp?, having a cup of tea?... No, Jiraiya would be shooting non-stop hair needles at Itachi and his clones .


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 19, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> susano can be set up very fast:, and that may have been only partial usano that blocked kirin.
> and an _incomplete_ form blocked a powerful attack here: the susano can tank almost any attack. tanking a kirin that moves at 1/1000 of a second is more impressive than dodging the shukaku's attack.




Again off panel! fleat is off panel!
 There is no proof of the time Itachi used Susanoo. It could be when Sasuke was preping kirin. Considering it takes a shitton of time to start attack. He could easily have started Susanoo before Karin happened.


Itachi speed fleats prior to that make his lightining timing reaction contridictory.

Like being unable to dodge a *Shadow* Shuriken attack from Sasuke. And judging from the prenetration of the Shuriken it was barely above 50m/s.

Or Being unable to dodge Goryukano jutsu from Sasuke.







> if amaterasu burns jiraya's hair defense, it will keep burning, since it is impossible to put it out. and if jiraya gets his hair burned, he dies when amaterasu reaches his scalp.



Jiraiya can easily seal it or just send the* burned hair back a Itachi*. Or just cut the hair.





> Originally Posted by *TheYellowFlash10  *
> 
> The clones would pull him out of the Swamp.





Human was realm was stuck in a swamp upside down hanging from a celling. Animal realm pull him using his weight.......Human realm sank even deeper


Reread Jiraiya vs Pain again.


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## Paranoid Android (Jun 19, 2010)

Ra said:


> In tsukuyomi case he's not breaking out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The last time any genjutsu was the sole factor in deciding a fight was in part 1. Genjutsu doesn't seem to be able to do crazy shit against anyone but fodder. You can say "NOBODY BREAK OUT OF ITACHI AMATERASU", how do we know? the only ppl we've seen it used on successfully are part 1 kakashi and part 1 sasuke, a jounin and a genin. We've never seen it against a Sage mode user with 2 allies regulating his chakra. So.... POSSIBLY, tsukuyomi might have the same effect it had on jiraiya as it would part 1 kakashi and part 1 sasuke, but sasuke part 2 was able to break out of it, and while his sharingan may have played a role, we don't know how Sage Mode and Shima and Fukasaku will affect the genjutsu, and we never will.

one thing: amaterasu was never fast enough to hit raikage. not even close. go read the slides. raikage only got merked because he attacked THROUGH sasuke's amaterasu shield. and you seriously don't know ur manga... in the MANGA, not the anime (which is not cannon)(when i saw how they changed that fight when it first came out in the anime, i was pissed...), Team Hawk got like 3 shotted by Killerbee. none of them stood a chance and they were fighting together.

Jiraiya wins IF tsukuyomi can be limited by Jiraiya and the 2 frogs. He is better than itachi at taijutsu, ninjutsu, and chakra levels. Itachi's only edge is his mastery of genjutsu. 50/50 if Tsukuyomi works just as well as it did against part 1 sasuke.

O yeah, for those saying amaterasu will be a 1 shot on jiraiya, keep dreaming. everything you quote, saying "amaterasu is going to one shot everything because Zetsu said so" is totally wrong. Look at amaterasu and when we've seen it. We've seen it burn through a wall. We've seen it burn off sasuke's wing, which he was able to take off. Sasuke used a defensive amaterasu on raikage (which raikage could've easily avoided), and raikage had time to cut his arm off. clearly amaterasu is not as godly as uchihatards think. If jiraiya sees amaterasu, he can curl up in that gigantic hairball and then shed his hair and use chakra to grow the hair back. (He is able to do that. how else would he be able to shoot thousands of projectiles from his hair and still have the same amount of hair left?)


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## Kisame (Jun 19, 2010)

People keep sayin' Jiraiya sucks at USING Genjutsu and not Breaking out of it,but then they Say that Ma and Pa can Break it easily because they are skilled in it,this is False,They only USED it does not mean they can Easily counter It.


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## Griever (Jun 19, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> People keep sayin' Jiraiya sucks at USING Genjutsu and not Breaking out of it,but then they Say that Ma and Pa can Break it easily because they are skilled in it,this is False,They only USED it does not mean they can Easily counter It.



No... that's not what people say.... Ma and Pa are fused to Jiraiya, meaning Jiraiya's chakra is always changing, Ma and Pa can also inject their chakra into Jiraiya if he is cought in Genjutsu breaking him out (like Sakura and Chiyo did with Naruto) the fact that thay can use a Genjutsu means thay have at least alittle knowledge in the area, this method of breaking genjutsu is the easiest of them.


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## Kisame (Jun 19, 2010)

Griever said:


> No... that's not what people say.... Ma and Pa are fused to Jiraiya, meaning Jiraiya's chakra is always changing, Ma and Pa can also inject their chakra into Jiraiya if he is cought in Genjutsu breaking him out (like Sakura and Chiyo did with Naruto) the fact that thay can use a Genjutsu means thay have at least alittle knowledge in the area, this method of breaking genjutsu is the easiest of them.



If they continuesly changing his Chakra than he should not be able to perform any Ninjutsu cause his chakra wont be stable,and they wont realize he is in a Genjutsu instantly,given Pa didnt realize that pain's chakra rod was disturbng Jiraiya's chakra and he was fused with him.


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## Aoshi (Jun 19, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> If they continuesly changing his Chakra than he should not be able to perform any Ninjutsu cause his chakra wont be stable,and they wont realize he is in a Genjutsu instantly,given Pa didnt realize that pain's chakra rod was disturbng Jiraiya's chakra and he was fused with him.



_1. This myth that people cannot preform Ninjutsu when he/she is having their chakra disrupted is proven false because of the Kai. Obviously, one must utilize the Kai to break out of Genjutsu. The Kai is classified as a Ninjutsu.

2. The distance provided is too far for Itachi to use Tsukuyomi instantly. He has not displayed Tsukuyomi while moving. For him to utilize the Genjutsu, he would have to run up to HM Jiraiya, and then use it on him. All Jiraiya has to do is continually attack him._


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## Paranoid Android (Jun 19, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> If they continuesly changing his Chakra than he should not be able to perform any Ninjutsu cause his chakra wont be stable,and they wont realize he is in a Genjutsu instantly,given Pa didnt realize that pain's chakra rod was disturbng Jiraiya's chakra and he was fused with him.



of course Shima and fukasaku realized what Pain's chakra knife did... read it again. and they're not continuously changing his chakra... they're CHARGING his chakra through gathering natural energy. Also, since their chakra systems are connected, unless somehow itachi tsukuyomis all 3 of them at once (he has not shown the chakra levels to do so), they'll just break each other out of it, since they are effectively 3 minds in one.

of course, this is speculation... tsukuyomi was never used on sage mode. we don't know how this would work.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Jun 19, 2010)

ma and pa converting chakra to jiraiya will not break tsuiyomi, converting and disrupting are 2 different things, also jiraiya can seal amatarasu but it takes time, why are we to assume itachi will watch him pull out his fire scroll and let him seal it without attacking him?


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## Kisame (Jun 19, 2010)

Paranoid Android said:


> of course Shima and fukasaku realized what Pain's chakra knife did... read it again. and they're not continuously changing his chakra... they're CHARGING his chakra through gathering natural energy. Also, since their chakra systems are connected, unless somehow itachi tsukuyomis all 3 of them at once (he has not shown the chakra levels to do so), they'll just break each other out of it, since they are effectively 3 minds in one.
> 
> of course, this is speculation... tsukuyomi was never used on sage mode. we don't know how this would work.



the point being that he didn't realize it INSTANTLY,he took some time to do it,Tsukiyomi is INSTANT.
and they cant break out of it because its INSTANT.

u should know that I believe they are Equals.


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## Kisame (Jun 19, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _1. This myth that people cannot preform Ninjutsu when he/she is having their chakra disrupted is proven false because of the Kai. Obviously, one must utilize the Kai to break out of Genjutsu. The Kai is classified as a Ninjutsu.
> 
> 2. The distance provided is too far for Itachi to use Tsukuyomi instantly. He has not displayed Tsukuyomi while moving. For him to utilize the Genjutsu, he would have to run up to HM Jiraiya, and then use it on him. All Jiraiya has to do is continually attack him._



My point being that IF Itachi gets the chance to use Tsukiyomi it would succeed,I don't believe Itachi>Jiraiya they are more or less equals,I Just reply to some posts I dont agree with.
like saying genjutsu is TOTALY USELESS,but it is not,the problems being about Itachi's poor Stamna with his MS Techs,and thats why his weaknesses benefit Jiraiya.


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## Paranoid Android (Jun 19, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> My point being that IF Itachi gets the chance to use Tsukiyomi it would succeed,I don't believe Itachi>Jiraiya they are more or less equals,I Just reply to some posts I dont agree with.
> like saying genjutsu is TOTALY USELESS,but it is not,the problems being about Itachi's poor Stamna with his MS Techs,and thats why his weaknesses benefit Jiraiya.



I dont think there will be anywhere near a decisive answer until AT LEAST a mid level genjutsu is used on naruto in sage mode. Even then, Jiraiya supporters will cite the fact that naruto is not merged with shima and fukasaku. Now that they're both dead we'll never know. IDK i personally think jiraiya has a slight edge because of additional allies and more chakra.


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## Kisame (Jun 19, 2010)

Paranoid Android said:


> I dont think there will be anywhere near a decisive answer until AT LEAST a mid level genjutsu is used on naruto in sage mode. Even then, Jiraiya supporters will cite the fact that naruto is not merged with shima and fukasaku. Now that they're both dead we'll never know. IDK i personally think jiraiya has a slight edge because of additional allies and more chakra.



Shima and Fukasaku are dead?


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## Paranoid Android (Jun 19, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> Shima and Fukasaku are dead?



no, but jiraiya is which means they can't be fused. itachi is dead too so we'll never see another such high lvl genjutsu unless sasuke can surpass him that way. most of all we won't see how fused jiraiya can handle genjutsu.


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## Kisame (Jun 19, 2010)

Paranoid Android said:


> no, but jiraiya is which means they can't be fused. itachi is dead too so we'll never see another such high lvl genjutsu unless sasuke can surpass him that way. most of all we won't see how fused jiraiya can handle genjutsu.



nah,Naruto has the fox on a leash now,he wont prevent ma and pa from fusing,Also I believe the War has many things in store for us:
-Itachi Tsukiyomi will Eventually be broken
-Edo tensei will be beaten by something other than soulrip
-Kabuto is Awesome!!


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## Sanbi (Jun 19, 2010)

No reply to my post on why Jiraiya was more important? 

Jiraiya can either have them constantly inject chakra into him in order to make him immune to genjutsu, or he just tanks it with his willpower.


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## Kisame (Jun 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> No reply to my post on why Jiraiya was more important?


Everything Jiraiya did was Unintentional,i.e training Mintao,Naruto,Nagati,Itachi stopped Madara and sacrificed his life to be a criminal hated by the world,only to save his village from the clutches of Akatsuki,Jiraiya did some good things,but they are not as good as Itachi's in my Opinion.



Sanbi said:


> Jiraiya can either have them constantly inject chakra into him in order to make him immune to genjutsu, or he just tanks it with his willpower.



He does not have Knowledge on Tsukiyomi,and even if he tanked,the best he will do is stay conciouss at best,I mean Kakashi passed out!


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## Lightysnake (Jun 19, 2010)

Kakashi did no such thing immediately.


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## Kisame (Jun 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kakashi did no such thing immediately.



Makes no difference,he was helpless in the 2 seconds he stayed conciouss in before passing out


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## Lightysnake (Jun 19, 2010)

There's still Fukasaku and Shima there. It comes down to mental endurance and Jiraiya has a lot.


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## Kisame (Jun 19, 2010)

I Agree....


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## Cole (Jun 19, 2010)

I don't see mental power being an issue; he did will himself back to life.


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## Sanbi (Jun 19, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> Everything Jiraiya did was Unintentional,i.e training Mintao,Naruto,Nagati,


That isn't unintentional, that greatly affected the world. It isn't about what is intentional, it is about effect on the world. Training the Ame orphans started the Ame Civil War, gave birth to Pain, later killed Hanzo and lead Akatsuki. Training Minato means he wouldn't have had such a great teacher, someone he looked up to, he wouldn't have had Gamabunta to ride ontop of vs the Kyubi. Training Naruto affected the world the most. He wouldn't have learned Rasengan so early and challenged Sasuke to the point he left the village for power. He wouldn't have had access to the Kyubi against Garra and Neji, nor would he have had Gamabunta to face off against Shukaku. Naruto would have got captured by Itachi and Kisame without Jiraiya showing up. He wouldn't have gotten the genjutsu training, that jutsu, the key training, Oodama Rasengan, nor the 2.5 years of protection. If Jiraiya wasn't there to train him, he wouldn't have a contract to the toads that saved him in the Pain attack. Nor would he have learned SM. Jiraiya had a choice that directly affected the fate of the world, and taught a disciple that would revolutionize the world or destroy it. Had Jiraiya not taught Naruto he wouldn't have had the ideals he had today that saved Konoha by changing Nagato. Heck, Nagato wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for Jiraiya. Jiraiya also brought along Naruto, who convinced Tsunade to come to Konoha as well as saved her. Had Tsunade not come to Konoha they would be in way worse of a condition.

See what I am getting at?



> Itachi stopped Madara and sacrificed his life to be a criminal hated by the world,only to save his village from the clutches of Akatsuki,


Itachi didn't stop Madara, he only delayed him. Jiraiya also sacrificed his life in order to give Konoha vital information on Pain that later saved his village as well.



> Jiraiya did some good things,but they are not as good as Itachi's in my Opinion.


He did things that effected the world more then Itachi.





> He does not have Knowledge on Tsukiyomi,and even if he tanked,the best he will do is stay conciouss at best,I mean Kakashi passed out!


He willed himself back to life, I don't think Itachi's torture would seem that bad off to him.


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## Bloo (Jun 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> He did things that effected the world more then Itachi.


Jiraiya did protect the leaf village from pain by supplying them vital information, but Itachi protected the entire world from a world war, and his required a greater sacrifice in my opinion. He was hated for what he did, and had to live with that guilt. Jiraiya smiled and was glorified for what he did. Jiraiya(and Minato) were the types of Hero's that the world wanted, however Itachi was the hero that the world needed.


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## Sanbi (Jun 19, 2010)

He trained Naruto and was one of the greater influences on him, even teaching him one of his most prominent techniques, Rasengan.

 That wasn't all, he also taught Yahiko, Konan and Nagato ninjutsu and became their sensei for a while. Had it not been for Jiraiya's choice to be kind to these orphans, which both Sannin would have just left to rot, the world would have been completely different. Ame would not have been in a Civil War if not for Jiraiya's, the Orphans would not have had the power to fight Hanzou without Jiraiya's guidance, nor would have Nagato have killed _Hanzou_ and affect Ame so much. Akatsuki would have never been formed had it not been for Jiraiya's teaching, and I hope I don't have to explain how much of an impact they had on the ninja world.

 Jiraiya also ended up teaching Minato and he helped shape Minato into the ninja he was before his death, as well as being a great impact on him as a man saying "You're a man of true skill...an example we should all follow. I can't think of a finer shinobi then you."

He was even the person who was sent on the task to retrieve Tsunade, and due to his efforts, and due to his decision, at the councils disapproval, to bring Naruto along he also indirectly saved Tsunade and put faith in her, and due to his decision Tsunade decided to become the fifth Hokage, and we all know how much that affect Konoha and the world.

 Jiraiya then also fulfilled the Toad Sage's prophecy teaching a pupil that will bring a great revolution to the world bringing peace to the world or utterly destroy it, and that speaks for it self on how important he was stating how he was their master and their teacher. He even stated that Jiraiya's choice would directly affect the fate of the world. His choice did in fact effect the world greatly. 

He faced Pain, gave great information to Konoha concerning Pain protecting thousands and helped Konoha gain info on Pain and combat him effectively. Has Jiraiya not existed Konoha wouldn't even been attacked in the first place! Had Jiraiya not taken Naruto as his pupil, Naruto would not have learned Rasengan that early, he would not have as great control over the Kyuubi, Fukasaku would have never taken on Naruto as an apprentice and teach him SM, nor would have Naruto have adopted Jiraiya's ideology that later swayed Nagato's heart to save all of the dead Konoha people like Kakashi, Hinata, Shizune, and Fukasaku.

Yeah, I think Jiraiya affected the world the most. Akatsuki Founding + Ame Civil War + Minato Being A Great Ninja + Bringing Tsunade Back + Teaching Naruto Almost All of his Techs + Saving Konoha With Knowledge + Causing New World War > Preventing Possible Ninja War


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## Bloo (Jun 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Yeah, I think Jiraiya affected the world the most. Akatsuki Founding + Ame Civil War + Minato Being A Great Ninja + Bringing Tsunade Back + Teaching Naruto Almost All of his Techs + Saving Konoha With Knowledge + Causing New World War < Preventing Possible Ninja War


So you're disregarding the fact that some of these deeds were big negatives in the world
Also Fixed 
Also if we're including all of this stuff such as saving someone who destroyed his hom village, then might as well add that if it weren't for Itachi's death Sasuke would have never turned evil, and wouldn't gain EMS and plan to destroy the world. And sasuke is after the entire world it seems like at this point, so you can add this to Itachi's list


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## Sanbi (Jun 19, 2010)

Negative or not it still affected the world more, so it would be more important.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 19, 2010)

> Yeah, I think Jiraiya affected the world the most. Akatsuki Founding + Ame Civil War + Minato Being A Great Ninja + Bringing Tsunade Back + Teaching Naruto Almost All of his Techs + Saving Konoha With Knowledge + Causing New World War > Preventing Possible Ninja War



Clearly, this is all Itachi ever did.


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## Bloo (Jun 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Negative or not it still affected the world more, so it would be more important.


Whatever, you have your opinion, and I have mine.  Deal?


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## Sanbi (Jun 19, 2010)

No, but 3spn4life implied that was enough to beat anything Jiraiya ever did, so I was just proving him wrong.


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## Sanbi (Jun 19, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> Whatever, you have your opinion, and I have mine.  Deal?


So because something was negative, it doesn't affect the world?


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## Bloo (Jun 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> So because something was negative, it doesn't affect the world?


Still want to debate, I thought we were arguing heroism?


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## Sanbi (Jun 19, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> Still want to debate, I thought we were arguing heroism?


I was arguing about importance to the world.


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## Bloo (Jun 19, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> I was arguing about importance to the world.


Oh okay, but anyways, as I said difference in opinion.


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## Aoshi (Jun 19, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> Oh okay, but anyways, as I said difference in opinion.



_There is nothing opinionated in this argument... We have two different characters, each with notable effects on the world. Now, we are comparing these two character's effects, and debating who has more importance in the world. _


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## Sanbi (Jun 19, 2010)

Itachi probably did do more heroic things by himself, but Jiraiya had a greater affect on the entire world, good or bad.


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## Kisame (Jun 20, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Itachi probably did do more heroic things by himself, but Jiraiya had a greater affect on the entire world, good or bad.



Jiraiya had a Greater effect,but Itachi was more Heroic


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## Thunder (Jun 20, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> That isn't unintentional, that greatly affected the world. It isn't about what is intentional, it is about effect on the world. Training the Ame orphans started the Ame Civil War, gave birth to Pain, later killed Hanzo and lead Akatsuki. Training Minato means he wouldn't have had such a great teacher, someone he looked up to, he wouldn't have had Gamabunta to ride ontop of vs the Kyubi. Training Naruto affected the world the most. He wouldn't have learned Rasengan so early and challenged Sasuke to the point he left the village for power. He wouldn't have had access to the Kyubi against Garra and Neji, nor would he have had Gamabunta to face off against Shukaku. Naruto would have got captured by Itachi and Kisame without Jiraiya showing up. He wouldn't have gotten the genjutsu training, that jutsu, the key training, Oodama Rasengan, nor the 2.5 years of protection. If Jiraiya wasn't there to train him, he wouldn't have a contract to the toads that saved him in the Pain attack. Nor would he have learned SM. Jiraiya had a choice that directly affected the fate of the world, and taught a disciple that would revolutionize the world or destroy it. Had Jiraiya not taught Naruto he wouldn't have had the ideals he had today that saved Konoha by changing Nagato. Heck, Nagato wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for Jiraiya. Jiraiya also brought along Naruto, who convinced Tsunade to come to Konoha as well as saved her. Had Tsunade not come to Konoha they would be in way worse of a condition.
> 
> See what I am getting at?
> 
> ...



I agree, Jiraiya clearly had the most impact on the Shinobi World as a whole



3spn4life said:


> Jiraiya did protect the leaf village from pain by supplying them vital information, but Itachi protected the entire world from a world war, and his required a greater sacrifice in my opinion. He was hated for what he did, and had to live with that guilt. Jiraiya smiled and was glorified for what he did. Jiraiya(and Minato) were the types of Hero's that the world wanted, however Itachi was the hero that the world needed.



While I disagree that Itachi had more of an effect on the Shinobi World, I do agree that he Itachi was more of a "hero". He sacrificed his honor, reputation and life to what he believed was the right thing to do.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

No, he wasn't. Itachi didn't lift a finger to stop Akatsuki killing innocent people. Jiraiya made heroism his life's work.


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## Thunder (Jun 20, 2010)

Itachi gave up his family and agreed to go down in history as someone who just went crazy and murdered his clan when it was an order. If that isn't heroic, I don't know what is. None of his actions benefited himself at all. As for the Akatsuki, how would Itachi save them? Its their job to catch Jins. It would sort of blow his cover.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

Yeah, but there's an issue with being the ultimate hero for one admittedly very heroic act. But it's mitigated when you then join the worst group in the world and do nothing to stop them. In fact, you even do things to spur them along. Could he have saved Roshi with a Genjutsu? Could he have leaked information? Could he not have gone to Konoha with Kisame, putting numerous people in danger just by proximity to a bloodthirsty lunatic with a giant sword? 

And by participating in the sealings, he helped in the deaths of innocent people. Oh, and if not for a lucky twist of fate he couldn't foresee, Sasuke would've become Orochimaru's new body thanks to his torture.


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## Thunder (Jun 20, 2010)

I'm not saying he is the ultimate personification of what a hero should be, just more so then most shinobi in this manga. True, he did join the Akatsuki who are not the best guys to hang out with, but Kishi explained why he did it. That's the thing about saving Jins. What would happen when news spreads around the Shinobi World that the murdering, bloodthirsty Itachi is saving people from Akatsuki? It would ruin the entire image Itachi was trying to cultivate. He would be kicked out of Akatsuki, and painted as a hero. This would be completely counterproductive to what he was trying to achieve. He also had to go to Konoha to let Danzo and the elders know that he is still alive.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

It's not the 'why' I have issue with. Joining Akatsuki as a double agent is a very good thing to do...but the problem is Itachi doesn't really seem to have gotten the 'double' part of that. 

It's not like Roshi or Kisame would even have to know Itachi did anything. The guy is good at doing things subtly. Plus, he was already politely asking Asuma and Kurenai to stay back as he didn't want to hurt them. 

And remember he went to Konoha as a warning for Danzo, which was purely selfish. Danzo had displayed no ill intention towards Sasuke. In fact, if Danzo wanted to harm Sasuke, he took his sweet time about it until Sasuke actively betrayed Konoha.


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## UKTone (Jun 20, 2010)

Jiraiya is my favorite adult character, but I would have to say Itachi would more than likely win. I don't know much about what Jiraiya could do against Amaterasu and Susanoo, and about the first poster saying he use ma and pa to break him out of any genjitsu, Kakashi or Itachi (can't remember who said it) said that only another sharingan user can break out of Tsukyomi, but not sure if another person could break them free, and even if they did it could be too late, because 1 second in tsukyomi time is really long. Jiraiya may be fast enough to dodge amateratsu and even survive tsukyomi, but susanoo is as far as we know has an indestructible shield.

I say Itachi, hmm maybe this should have had a poll.


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## Kai (Jun 20, 2010)

Itachi vs. Jiraiya threads are supposed to be banned. The official thread, which was *stickied*, got dumped into the archives because the repetition was unbearable.

Add onto the fact that this is no longer a battledome discussion and we have a thread worthy of the trash heap.


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## Thunder (Jun 20, 2010)

Well, Itachi joined Akatsuki for one reason, to keep an eye on Madara. That was his role, not saving people from the inside. He knew Madara was a dangerous guy and wanted to find out how to stop him. He might have failed, but the point is his intentions were good.

But how would he save Roshi? As you know, each Akatsuki member is assigned a Bijuu to capture. Roshi was Kisame's assignment. Itachi couldn't really interfere with that. For one, Kisame would have to be okay with it. I highly doubt he would be. Remember, Kisame isn't a good guy. He may have had respect for Itachi, but he wouldn't betray Akatsuki for him. Telling Kisame he wants to save Jins would also blow his cover. Itachi had to put up a facade for even Kisame. Itachi had a reputation in Akatsuki as being a killer. True, he did tell Asuma and Kurenai that, but Itachi's excuse was not starting a war. They could have easily taken Itachi's words as sarcasm also. 

How was it selfish? He was looking out for Sasuke. We don't really know what the elders had in plan if they knew Itachi wasn't around. They could have easily staged an assassination of Sasuke and covered it up, saying he ran away. They did cover up what happened in the Uchiha Massacre after all.


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## Kisame (Jun 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It's not the 'why' I have issue with. Joining Akatsuki as a double agent is a very good thing to do...but the problem is Itachi doesn't really seem to have gotten the 'double' part of that.
> 
> It's not like Roshi or Kisame would even have to know Itachi did anything. The guy is good at doing things subtly. Plus, he was already politely asking Asuma and Kurenai to stay back as he didn't want to hurt them.
> 
> And remember he went to Konoha as a warning for Danzo, which was purely selfish. Danzo had displayed no ill intention towards Sasuke. In fact, if Danzo wanted to harm Sasuke, he took his sweet time about it until Sasuke actively betrayed Konoha.



Itachi prevented Madara from attacking the Village,it was also mentioned that he kept an eye on Konoha from akatsuki.
He did what he had to do in Akatsuki,but it was for a greater cause,he was forced to do the things he did in Akatsuki.
and he was partnered with KISAME!! that says something lol!

and it was mentioned Itachi never fought seriously or intending to kill someone,Infact,other than the Massacre of his clan,he did not kill anyone though he had so many chances,he had to pretend to an extent,
He could have killed Sasuke and Naruto at the hotel,since Jiraiya was occupied by Kisame.
He always has excuses and kisame thinks they should not retreat.

and how was it purely selfish? he had to go and warn the elders not to harm Sasuke,he would not know what the elders were thinking but just to be sure.

comparing Itachi as a Hero to Jiraiya is out of the question.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Well, Itachi joined Akatsuki for one reason, to keep an eye on Madara. That was his role, not saving people from the inside. He knew Madara was a dangerous guy and wanted to find out how to stop him. He might have failed, but the point is his intentions were good.


Good intentions only take one so far. Itachi was supposed to be a peaceful person who loved peace and hated conflict, but he did things to strengthen the biggest threat to peace, put innocent lives at risk. 



> But how would he save Roshi? As you know, each Akatsuki member is assigned a Bijuu to capture. Roshi was Kisame's assignment. Itachi couldn't really interfere with that. For one, Kisame would have to be okay with it. I highly doubt he would be. Remember, Kisame isn't a good guy. He may have had respect for Itachi, but he wouldn't betray Akatsuki for him. Telling Kisame he wants to save Jins would also blow his cover. Itachi had to put up a facade for even Kisame. Itachi had a reputation in Akatsuki as being a killer. True, he did tell Asuma and Kurenai that, but Itachi's excuse was not starting a war. They could have easily taken Itachi's words as sarcasm also.


It's not taboo for Akatsuki members to help or interfere. Look at Deidara helping Tobi, or trying to seize Naruto. Kakuzu helped with Yugito (hinted to be Hidan's assignment), among other examples. Itachi could've helped Roshi escape or even used a genjutsu on Kisame to get him kiilled there with nobody the wiser. He didn't have to act outwardly, just subtly. At the very least, he shouldn't be chatting so cheerfully to Kisame with no concern for an innocent person he's about to help murder.
Kisame defers to Itachi, too, regardless of circumstance. If Itachi tells him something, he tends to do it.



> How was it selfish? He was looking out for Sasuke. We don't really know what the elders had in plan if they knew Itachi wasn't around. They could have easily staged an assassination of Sasuke and covered it up, saying he ran away. They did cover up what happened in the Uchiha Massacre after all.


If they hadn't done it yet, it's unlikely they would. Danzo is shown praising Itachi and would have honored his word. He didn't even try to usurp the title of Hokage then, which says something.
And what Itachi did to Sasuke is not excusable.



Garaiku said:


> Itachi prevented Madara from attacking the Village,it was also mentioned that he kept an eye on Konoha from akatsuki.
> He did what he had to do in Akatsuki,but it was for a greater cause,he was forced to do the things he did in Akatsuki.


Pain had no reason to attack the villages then. It wasn't like they needed the help. Konoha had enough threats to it.
And what was the greater cause? What'd Itachi do to hinder the group?


> and he was partnered with KISAME!! that says something lol!
> 
> and it was mentioned Itachi never fought seriously or intending to kill someone,Infact,other than the Massacre of his clan,he did not kill anyone though he had so many chances,he had to pretend to an extent,
> He could have killed Sasuke and Naruto at the hotel,since Jiraiya was occupied by Kisame.


He outright ordered the deaths of innocent people from Kisame.
And if he killed Naruto, he'd face execution.



> He always has excuses and kisame thinks they should not retreat.


And Itachi was too weak to continue fighting at that point.



> and how was it purely selfish? he had to go and warn the elders not to harm Sasuke,he would not know what the elders were thinking but just to be sure.


And he didn't have to bring Kisame. At all. Or send Danzo another message.
But he had to plan to be recognized. Meaning he was ready to kill people



> comparing Itachi as a Hero to Jiraiya is out of the question.


Yes, it is. Jiraiya is more of a hero.


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## Bloo (Jun 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yes, it is. Jiraiya is more of a hero.


Only lesser acknowledged in both the Manga and Databook.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

How so? The databooks place a great deal of emphasis on Jiraiya's heroism.


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## Thunder (Jun 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Good intentions only take one so far. Itachi was supposed to be a peaceful person who loved peace and hated conflict, but he did things to strengthen the biggest threat to peace, put innocent lives at risk.



He _was_ a peaceful person according to Kishi. Itachi's being in Akatsuki did little to strengthen the group. If Itachi didn't join, someone else would have taken his place and the results would be the same. Itachi didn't even catch his one and only assigned Jin, Naruto.



Lightysnake said:


> It's not taboo for Akatsuki members to help or interfere. Look at Deidara helping Tobi, or trying to seize Naruto. Kakuzu helped with Yugito (hinted to be Hidan's assignment), among other examples. Itachi could've helped Roshi escape or even used a genjutsu on Kisame to get him kiilled there with nobody the wiser. He didn't have to act outwardly, just subtly. At the very least, he shouldn't be chatting so cheerfully to Kisame with no concern for an innocent person he's about to help murder.
> Kisame defers to Itachi, too, regardless of circumstance. If Itachi tells him something, he tends to do it.



Actually, it is taboo if it involves letting Jins go, or killing them. Personal squabbles and what they do on their free time, like deciding who gets to capture what beast doesn't matter to Madara, as long as they get captured. Each of them has an assigned beast, and as long as they meet their quota, or are in the process of meeting it, they are free to do what they want, as long as it doesn't affect the goals of the group. It is impossible to help free Jins. For example, say Itachi went through with the plan you suggested and killed Kisame and let Roshi go. What does that do in the long run? Kisame will be replaced with someone else, and Roshi will be assigned to another team. And that team will capture him eventually. What is Itachi going to do, kill the other team? Madara is no fool, and will realize that something is up when Itachi fails to capture his beast every time. All it would do is delay the inevitable. Itachi must maintain a facade to other members. What is he suppose to do, cry about it? Itachi has a rep of murdering his own family. Wouldn't it be strange if he shows remorse for others of all people? Kisame respects Itachi. That doesn't go as far betraying Akatsuki, especially since it doesn't benefit Kisame in any way. Kisame is in Akatsuki for his own reason. Why would he actively go against them? He is nothing like Itachi. Kisame _wanted_ to be in Akatsuki.



Lightysnake said:


> If they hadn't done it yet, it's unlikely they would. Danzo is shown praising Itachi and would have honored his word. He didn't even try to usurp the title of Hokage then, which says something.
> And what Itachi did to Sasuke is not excusable.



We don't know what Danzo would have done. Obviously he and the elders had their eyes on Sasuke, otherwise Itachi wouldn't have threatened the elders in the first place. The only thing stopping them from getting rid of Sasuke was Hiruzen. And it was Itachi after that. As soon as both of them died, the order was put out for Sasuke's arrest. It just so happens that he was a missing nin then. He was also a missing nin since the end of Part 1. Why didn't Danzo do anything? Because Itachi was still there. And yes, Danzo is honorable, but he isn't above doing underhand means to get what he wants. What Itachi did to Sasuke was harsh, but it was really for plot reasons.


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## Bloo (Jun 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> How so? The databooks place a great deal of emphasis on Jiraiya's heroism.


Yes but there wasn't about 6 chapters to discuss how much of a hero he was, and Kishimoto said he was the opposite of a shinobi due to how peaceful he was, saying this softness made him not made to be a shinobi. So his peacefulness is better acknowledged, never said Jiraiya's heroism isn't, it's just less acknowledged than Itachi's.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 20, 2010)

itachi definately has the speed advantage seeing as he bought up susanoo before kirin struck him and lightning is 1/1000th of a second.
a well structured gen can easily fool jiraiya and the summons like it fooled naruto at the beginning of shippuden and amterasu can take out summons with ease.
the real issue is taijutsu which im sure jiraiya takes with relative ease


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

prasanth said:


> itachi definately has the speed advantage seeing as he bought up susanoo before kirin struck him and lightning is 1/1000th of a second.


You do realize that Itachi had like four or five minutes to prepare Susano'o for Kirin, right? And Jiraiya has better speed feats in Sage Mode.


> a well structured gen can easily fool jiraiya and the summons like it fooled naruto at the beginning of shippuden


...Naruto wasn't fooled. He recognized he was in a Genjutsu and broke the first level. If he had Jiraiya's power and control then, he'd have broken out of the second level completely. 

And you do know that Jiraiya has two partners on his shoulders which can break him out the instant he's in a genjutsu. And prove that Itachi can overpower Sage Chakra to create the illusion to put Jiraiya in.


> and amterasu can take out summons with ease.


No, it can't. Jiraiya can either seal it with a fire seal, avoid it, etc.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize that Itachi had like four or five minutes to prepare Susano'o for Kirin, right? And Jiraiya has better speed feats in Sage Mode.
> 
> ...Naruto wasn't fooled. He recognized he was in a Genjutsu and broke the first level. If he had Jiraiya's power and control then, he'd have broken out of the second level completely.
> 
> ...



not really if he prepared susanoo it still takes time to bring it up which he did in a split second.

naruto was fooled for the most part until he was broken out of the gen by sakura and chiyo, he was in a double layer gen.

and amterasu is a fast attack which he can land on summons easily as they are big


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

prasanth said:


> not really if he prepared susanoo it still takes time to bring it up which he did in a split second.


Itachi most likely brought Susano'o up BEFORE Sasuke dropped his hand. Itachi had plenty of time to bring it up.


> naruto was fooled for the most part until he was broken out of the gen by sakura and chiyo, he was in a double layer gen.


Naruto never was fooled. He recognized he was in a genjutsu, and broke the sleep part of it, forcing Itachi to switch tactics with a second, stronger layer. The genjutsu's name is Utakata. And you expect Jiraiya, a person stronger, with better chakra control than Naruto, who taught Naruto the technique to not be able to shatter it? Especially in Sage Mode with Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders, continuously pumping chakra into him?


> and amterasu is a fast attack which he can land on summons easily as they are big


Amaterasu takes a few seconds to charge. And it doesn't burn instantly, it takes time. And again, it can be avoided, blocked, or in Jiraiya's case, sealed.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi most likely brought Susano'o up BEFORE Sasuke dropped his hand. Itachi had plenty of time to bring it up.
> 
> Naruto never was fooled. He recognized he was in a genjutsu, and broke the sleep part of it, forcing Itachi to switch tactics with a second, stronger layer. The genjutsu's name is Utakata. And you expect Jiraiya, a person stronger, with better chakra control than Naruto, who taught Naruto the technique to not be able to shatter it? Especially in Sage Mode with Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders, continuously pumping chakra into him?
> 
> Amaterasu takes a few seconds to charge. And it doesn't burn instantly, it takes time. And again, it can be avoided, blocked, or in Jiraiya's case, sealed.



if he had that much time im sure sasuke would have saw it as he was about to cruch him. utakata is the filler character and jinchuriki of the 6 tails. naruto noticed he was in a gen when it looked all fake but when it looked real like whn naruto was fighting the itachi in a gen he thought was real.

and yh jiraiya in HM is debateable but if he lands a amterasu on hi he dies and susanoo also beats jiraiya


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

prasanth said:


> if he had that much time im sure sasuke would have saw it as he was about to cruch him. utakata is the filler character and jinchuriki of the 6 tails. naruto noticed he was in a gen when it looked all fake but when it looked real like whn naruto was fighting the itachi in a gen he thought was real.


*Rubs the bridge of his nose* 

Utakata is also the NAME of the genjutsu Itachi used on Naruto. And Naruto RECOGNIZED he was in the genjutsu. Itachi even commended him for breaking the first layer, saying he got stronger. 

And Sasuke wasn't really paying ATTENTION to Itachi. He was babbling on and on about his attack, and Itachi had PLENTY OF TIME to get Susano'o up.


> and yh jiraiya in HM is debateable but if he lands a amterasu on hi he dies and susanoo also beats jiraiya


Sage Mode makes Jiraiya insanely durable, he wouldn't burn instantly. And Jiraiya can SEAL it remember?! And Susano'o isn't unbeatable, it failed to block Kirin fully. A Chou Odama Rasengan which has mountain busting power will bring it down just as easily.

And what's stopping Jiraiya from using Yomi Numa to sink Susano'o into the ground? Or sink Itachi right from the get go?


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> *Rubs the bridge of his nose*
> 
> Utakata is also the NAME of the genjutsu Itachi used on Naruto. And Naruto RECOGNIZED he was in the genjutsu. Itachi even commended him for breaking the first layer, saying he got stronger.
> 
> ...



ok fair enough, but itachi only had his susanoo come up after he got struck, showing how fast kirin is and how fast he was to bring it up, jiraiya will be in so much pain trying to seal it when hes getting burnt alive


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

prasanth said:


> ok fair enough, but itachi only had his susanoo come up after he got struck, showing how fast kirin is and how fast he was to bring it up, jiraiya will be in so much pain trying to seal it when hes getting burnt alive


Itachi had to completely reform Susano'o _after_ it had been struck. Even with the Yata Mirror, it didn't hold up to the power of a mountain buster. 

And Jiraiya has a VERY HIGH pain tolerance, and his body in Sage Mode is insanely durable. This is guy who didn't even bat an eyelash _after he lost an arm_, fought and beat a KN4 Naruto in base, tolerated the pain of having his throat crushed, and willed himself back to life.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi had to completely reform Susano'o _after_ it had been struck. Even with the Yata Mirror, it didn't hold up to the power of a mountain buster.
> 
> And Jiraiya has a VERY HIGH pain tolerance, and his body in Sage Mode is insanely durable. This is guy who didn't even bat an eyelash _after he lost an arm_, fought and beat a KN4 Naruto in base, tolerated the pain of having his throat crushed, and willed himself back to life.



itachi is about equal in speed with HM jiraiya, and amterasu can still beat jiraiya


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

prasanth said:


> itachi is about equal in speed with HM jiraiya, and amterasu can still beat jiraiya


No, Itachi is equal in speed to Base Jiraiya. Sage Mode Jiraiya is MUCH faster. Has shown better speed feats. And Amaterasu needs to HIT first, and even if it DOES, Jiraiya can _seal_ it. Hell, he was durable enough to survive _KN4's corrosive Chakra Cloak_, which has better burning feats than Amaterasu, _in base._


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, Itachi is equal in speed to Base Jiraiya. Sage Mode Jiraiya is MUCH faster. Has shown better speed feats. And Amaterasu needs to HIT first, and even if it DOES, Jiraiya can _seal_ it. Hell, he was durable enough to survive _KN4's corrosive Chakra Cloak_, which has better burning feats than Amaterasu, _in base._



itachi is faster in base than jiraiya and about the same as HM jiraiya amterasu will hit jiraiya and amterasu burns more vogorously than kn4 chakra coat


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

prasanth said:


> itachi is faster in base than jiraiya and about the same as HM jiraiya amterasu will hit jiraiya and amterasu burns more vogorously than kn4 chakra coat


Itachi is slightly faster than Jiraiya in base, but Jiraiya can still keep up with him. And Jiraiya is much faster than Itachi in Sage Mode. Itachi doesn't have a feat of traveling down 50 stories in an instant for an attack. And KN4's Chakra Cloak burns better than Amaterasu. Amaterasu could barely hit Sasuke who was running in regular speed.

prasanth, stop with the Itachi fanboyism. He's outclassed in all areas, including speed, physically by Jiraiya in Sage Mode. Jiraiya can block (using one of his hair techniques), dodge, or seal Amaterasu.

Itachi loses.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi is slightly faster than Jiraiya in base, but Jiraiya can still keep up with him. And Jiraiya is much faster than Itachi in Sage Mode. Itachi doesn't have a feat of traveling down 50 stories in an instant for an attack. And KN4's Chakra Cloak burns better than Amaterasu. Amaterasu could barely hit Sasuke who was running in regular speed.
> 
> prasanth, stop with the Itachi fanboyism. He's outclassed in all areas, including speed, physically by Jiraiya in Sage Mode. Jiraiya can block (using one of his hair techniques), dodge, or seal Amaterasu.
> 
> Itachi loses.



he cant seal amterasu while hes being killed by it 

jiraiya loses


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## MyEyes (Jun 20, 2010)

u saying it that easily . " itachi loses " 
roflmao /
first of all we haven't seen itachi fighting at his best . and he still pwns .
tsukuyomi will be enough i think ... ma and pa will not be useful because tsukuyomi happens in 1 instant in the real world . and for jirayia it will be a 72 hours of pain 
jirayia can't resist tsukuyomi . and if he can  there is also susano'o . ( because amaterasu is useless against jirayia )


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

prasanth said:


> he cant seal amterasu while hes being killed by it


You do realize how insanely durable SM Jiraiya _is?_ And how slowly Amaterasu burns? And the fact that Sasuke outran it?

Do you ignore things you don't like?


> jiraiya loses


No, he doesn't. Itachi does. Itachi _already admitted the best he could do is stalemate a Base Jiraiya, even with help._

He can't use his MS techs right off the bat. What's stopping Jiraiya from the starting bell using the Toad Food Court Crusher? Summoning a 100 meter toad right above Itachi and dropping it?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

MyEyes said:


> first of all we haven't seen itachi fighting at his best . and he still pwns .


Thats more detrimental to Itachi than Jiraiya, you know that right? We've seen Jiraiya fighting at his strongest. 


> tsukuyomi will be enough i think ... ma and pa will not be useful because tsukuyomi happens in 1 instant in the real world . and for jirayia it will be a 72 hours of pain
> jirayia can't resist tsukuyomi . and if he can  there is also susano'o . ( because amaterasu is useless against jirayia )


1. Tsukuyomi requires eye contact. Jiraiya won't look at him in the eye. And it begs the question if Tsukuyomi can even affect someone in Sage Mode. 
2. Susano'o is also useless and more detrimental to Itachi than it is Jiraiya. Jiraiya avoids Susano'o's attacks, slams it with a Chou Odama Rasengan and shatters it as easily as Kirin did.

Stop the Itachi fanboyism. Its getting annoying.


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## MyEyes (Jun 20, 2010)

Itachi already admitted the best he could do is stalemate a Base Jiraiya, even with help

rofl u r a troll !!!!!!!
so wait a sec .,..........
base jirayia > itachi + kisame 
oh yeah !!!
lollllllll
itachi came to the village to warn danzo and the rest not to destroy the village .
so wait maybe gai > itachi and kisame aswell ? becasue they run away when he came .
stop trolling .


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

MyEyes said:


> rofl u r a troll !!!!!!!
> so wait a sec .,..........
> base jirayia > itachi + kisame
> oh yeah !!!
> ...


The only trolls here are you and pransrath. Itachi was in deep undercover, he couldn't afford to go easy on any of the Konoha Ninjua he went up against. And he was prepared, fully, to kill Kurenai, Kakashi, and Asuma and was surprised by Gai's appearance. Killing three of Konoha's best Jonin would have more than send a message to Danzo. 

And Itachi admitted being Jiraiya's equal in his own thoughts. He was fully prepared to take Naruto with Kisame and was surprised that Sasuke showed up. And he was surprised Jiraiya broke that genjutsu so easily. 

And please kid, learn how to type.


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## MyEyes (Jun 20, 2010)

kid ? nice nick btw, supersayiaman12.. ( not )
he was not surprised ... it was kisame who was surprised .
so wait now a normal genjutsu > tsukuyomi ? kakashi even asked himself " why he didn't kill me " simply because itachi wasn't fighting to kill some1 . this is not itachi's style to run away from a battle even if the enemy is stronger than him . and belive me that itachi and kisame > jirayia . why would they run away when he is alone and they are 2 ? please give me a good reason .


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

MyEyes said:


> kid ? nice nick btw, supersayiaman12.. ( not )
> he was not surprised ... it was kisame who was surprised .


No, he was surprised both times. He even had the "!!!" exclamation when he saw Ga and Sasuke.


> so wait now a normal genjutsu > tsukuyomi ? kakashi even asked himself " why he didn't kill me " simply because itachi wasn't fighting to kill some1 . this is not itachi's style to run away from a battle even if the enemy is stronger than him . and belive me that itachi and kisame > jirayia . why would they run away when he is alone and they are 2 ? please give me a good reason .


Tsukuyomi can't kill anyway, it can inflict horrible mental damage, but it can't kill. The databook even says that no Genjutsu can kill, its an illusion, not real. And he ordered Kakashi's, Kurenai's, and Asuma's deaths, not knowing at ALL if Gai was arriving. He was completely shocked, and retreated when Gai said reinforcements were on the way.

Kisame admitted inferiority to Jiraiya and Itachi said the best he could do was stalemate, even with help. And without Amaterasu? Jiraiya had trapped both Itachi and Kisame in the Toad's Stomach, and they would have been digested and killed. 

Look at Jiraiya vs Pain to see why Jiraiya in base is Itachi's equal, and in Sage Mode he's Itachi's superior.


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## Kisame (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Look at Jiraiya vs Pain to see why Jiraiya in base is Itachi's equal, and in Sage Mode he's Itachi's superior.



LOL,Jiraiya in Base has no answer to Tsukiyomi,Susanoo or Amaterasu


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> LOL,Jiraiya in Base has no answer to Tsukiyomi,Susanoo or Amaterasu


Tsukuyomi: Don't look into his eyes.
Amaterasu: Block it with one of his hair techniques or a summon
Susano'o: Sink it with Yomi Numa

He has plenty of answers in base to deal with Itachi. What are Itachi's answers to Yomi Numa + Toad Food Crusher?


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## MyEyes (Jun 20, 2010)

so Base Itachi > MS Itachi ?
oh okay i dont got anypower left to talk with u , 

0. Rikudou Sennin
1. Nagato (strongest in the manga. Stop doubting it)
2. Hashirama
3. Madara
4. Minato
5. Jiraiya
6. Itachi/Danzo
7. Killer Bee/A the Raikage
8. Naruto
9. Sasuke/Kisame
10. Orochimaru/Gaara
11. Tsunade/Konan
12. Terumi Mei
13. Sasori/Deidara
15. Kakuzu
16. Onoki
17. Kakashi
18. Hiruzen (Old)
19. Kage Body Guards
20. Hidan

look this is ur list of the top 20 strongest naruto characters .
after seeing that isn't it clear that u r a troll ?
how can be minato stronger than jirayia and itachi ? by hype ?
danzo probably beats jirayia and he is in the same rank as itachi ?
naruto is stronger than sasuke ? o rly ?
everything that sasuke does beats naruto .
and kisame = sasuke in terms of power ?
orochimaru = gaara ?
tsunade and konan > sasori and deidara ? that's funny ,
how the hell gaara > deidara ? deidara won him .
i belive that hiruzen is stronger than tsunade konan and gaara .
in short .... ur list is a shit .


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

MyEyes said:


> so Base Itachi > MS Itachi ?
> oh okay i dont got anypower left to talk with u ,
> 
> 0. Rikudou Sennin
> ...


Thats one of my older lists. And you're flaming me now, you know that right? And yes, Naruto is stronger than Sasuke now, look at what he did against Kyubi.


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## Kisame (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsukuyomi: Don't look into his eyes.
> Amaterasu: Block it with one of his hair techniques or a summon
> Susano'o: Sink it with Yomi Numa
> 
> He has plenty of answers in base to deal with Itachi. What are Itachi's answers to Yomi Numa + Toad Food Crusher?



Tsukiyomi : he Canonly looked him in the Eyes when he faced him,he will get hit
Amaterasu : Itachi spams it faster lol,a summon? lol
Susanoo : While Susanoo is Slashing Jiraiya to bits?and shouldn't susanoo be able to change to match the jutsu and counter it?

Ur creating combos for Jiraiya he never used,anyway Susanoo


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## MyEyes (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Thats one of my older lists. And you're flaming me now, you know that right? And yes, Naruto is stronger than Sasuke now, look at what he did against Kyubi.




kushina was helping him ...
dont tell me u really think that sm naruto > nine tails o.O
how will naruto counter amatersu? he will throw a rasen-shuriken ? amaterasu appears on the target and naruto will not be able to dodge ..
raikage's speed >>>>> naruto's speed even in sm
and there is susano'o's arrows aswell naruto is going down .
oh and the part of not looking into his eyes ..? it's really very easy to say that but it will be very hard to fight like that .


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> Tsukiyomi : he Canonly looked him in the Eyes when he faced him,he will get hit


And Itachi wasn't ready to use Tsukuyomi against him then. And Jiraiya grew up with the Uchiha and knows how to fight them-don't look at them in their eyes. 


> Amaterasu : Itachi spams it faster lol,a summon? lol


Itachi needs a buildup to use Amaterasu. He has a charge time. He doesn't 'spam' it, he only has two shots of it. Amaterasu has been outran, dodged, and blocked. Jiraiya can do all three.


> Susanoo : While Susanoo is Slashing Jiraiya to bits?and shouldn't susanoo be able to change to match the jutsu and counter it?


Susano'o's unlikely to hit Jiraiya. Unlike Orochimaru, he won't stand around gloating. He'll find a place to hid, and then activate Yomi Numa. Itachi sinks as does Susano'o.


> Ur creating combos for Jiraiya he never used,anyway Susanoo


They're two of the attacks he's used regularly, and Jiraiya's smart enough to use them both. And Susano'o, yeah, real smart making you sink faster into the ground.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

MyEyes said:


> kushina was helping him ...
> dont tell me u really think that sm naruto > nine tails o.O
> how will naruto counter amatersu? he will throw a rasen-shuriken ? amaterasu appears on the target and naruto will not be able to dodge ..
> raikage's speed >>>>> naruto's speed even in sm
> ...


1. Before Kushina even helped him regain his peace, he had injured Kyubi twice.
2. Thats what Kyuubi thought, remarking how strong Naruto is.
3. Avoid it. Its not unavoidable. Or use a clone to block. 
4. Uh, no. Naruto in Sage Mode covered over a hundred meters in a second. He's faster than A is. And A destroyed Sasuke in speed, your point?
5. Naruto's FRS is faster than Sasuke's Susano'o Arrows, and much more destructive.
6. You do know that Naruto _can sense chakra in Sage Mode?_ He can effectively fight blind.

Yeah, Naruto is Sasuke's superior. Stop it with the Uchiha fanboyism.


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## MyEyes (Jun 20, 2010)

lol ? sasuke is one of my hated characters in the series . 
and it looks like u r the naruto/j-man fanboy .

A is the fastest shinobi in the manga for now . 

and sasuke probably will use a genjutsu on naruto and even if he will break it sasuke unlike itachi can spamm amaterasu and hit the original 
and how the hell naruto will kill sasuke with susano'o ?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

MyEyes said:


> lol ? sasuke is one of my hated characters in the series .
> and it looks like u r the naruto/j-man fanboy .


You really don't show it man.


> A is the fastest shinobi in the manga for now .


One of the fastest. SM Naruto is slightly faster.


> and sasuke probably will use a genjutsu on naruto and even if he will break it sasuke unlike itachi can spamm amaterasu and hit the original
> and how the hell naruto will kill sasuke with susano'o ?


Naruto can break genjutsu even before beating the Kyuubi. And spamming Amaterasu is a bad thing, Naruto can turn it against him. He has clones to take the Amaterasu.

And Susano'o isn't unbeatable. Naruto has several mountain busting attacks which can shatter it. Even Itachi's Susano'o failed against Kirin.


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## Kisame (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Itachi wasn't ready to use Tsukuyomi against him then. And Jiraiya grew up with the Uchiha and knows how to fight them-don't look at them in their eyes. .



this does not qualify as an Answer,Jiraiya will look in his eyes with knowledge or not.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi needs a buildup to use Amaterasu. He has a charge time. He doesn't 'spam' it, he only has two shots of it. Amaterasu has been outran, dodged, and blocked. Jiraiya can do all three.


Itachi looks at something it burns,it was outran by Sasuke who saw it working on his Katon (jiraiya has no knowledge here),dodged by V2 Raikage who is >>>>>>>>>> in speed to base Jiraiya,and blocked when not concentrated on the target.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Susano'o's unlikely to hit Jiraiya. Unlike Orochimaru, he won't stand around gloating. He'll find a place to hid, and then activate Yomi Numa. Itachi sinks as does Susano'o..


Orochimaru was surprised at the speed of the attack,he was intercepted mid sentence to find the sword in his gut,and he was looking straight at susanoo,base jiraiya aint dodging anything.and Susanoo could potentially counter the swamp



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> They're two of the attacks he's used regularly, and Jiraiya's smart enough to use them both. And Susano'o, yeah, real smart making you sink faster into the ground.



Susanoo can counter the whole Jutsu,by shaping the mirror to what it does or something,i dont remember, zetsu said somthing like that.
and Jiraiya does not use them together,hell itachi can genjutsu base Jiraiya before he does ANYTHING,depending on the distance,and he can make the genjutsu realistic,different from the one he did to naruto.

anyway,Base Jiraiya<Itachi,itachi=SM Jiraiya


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> this does not qualify as an Answer,Jiraiya will look in his eyes with knowledge or not.


No, he won't. With knowledge, he won't look at Itachi's eyes.



> Itachi looks at something it burns,it was outran by Sasuke who saw it working on his Katon (jiraiya has no knowledge here),dodged by V2 Raikage who is >>>>>>>>>> in speed to base Jiraiya,and blocked when not concentrated on the target.


No it doesn't. Sasuke was able to avoid the Amaterasu and then let himself get hit after outrunning it. And V2 Raikage isn't that fast. And it has been blocked. Amaterasu isn't unbeatable.



> Orochimaru was surprised at the speed of the attack,he was intercepted mid sentence to find the sword in his gut,and he was looking straight at susanoo,base jiraiya aint dodging anything.and Susanoo could potentially counter the swamp


Orochimaru was standing around gloating. He made no attempt to do things covertly. And he wasn't surprised by the speed of the attack. Hell he initially laughed it off until it started sealing him. And you do know that a kunai or a regular sword hits at the same speed? 

And...HOW WOULD SUSANO'O counter the swamp? It sinks into the ground. There's no way to get out of it.




> Susanoo can counter the whole Jutsu,by shaping the mirror to what it does or something,i dont remember, zetsu said somthing like that.


The shield changes nature to block attacks. A toad dropping from several hundred meters has no nature, and would further push Itachi into the mud. 


> and Jiraiya does not use them together,hell itachi can genjutsu base Jiraiya before he does ANYTHING,


Itachi was surprised that Jiraiya broke his genjutsu so easily and Jiraiya has a known genjutsu counter. Hell if Naruto could break Itachi's first genjutsu, Jiraiya can since he's more experienced, stronger than Naruto was at the time, and has better chakra control.


> depending on the distance,and he can make the genjutsu realistic,different from the one he did to naruto.


You mean the same genjutsu Naruto recognized and broke, forcing Itachi to change tactics?


> anyway,Base Jiraiya<Itachi,itachi=SM Jiraiya


Itachi doesn't think so. Itachi didn't even know of Sage Mode, yet he still said the best he could do against Base Jiraiya was a stalemate. And if he didn't have enough chakra for Amaterasu, he would have died with Kisame in the frog stomach.


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## Kisame (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaman
u have to agree that since jiraiya had knowledge about itachi in the manga and looked into his eyes he will do the same here right?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> SuperSaiyaman
> u have to agree that since jiraiya had knowledge about itachi in the manga and looked into his eyes he will do the same here right?


Jiraiya didn't have knowledge _at the time_ about Tsukuyomi, but Itachi didn't even attempt to use it. If Itachi did use Tsukuyomi though, potentially Jiraiya could be taken out, but he can take a hell of a lot of punishment.


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## Bloo (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Itachi wasn't ready to use Tsukuyomi against him then. And Jiraiya grew up with the Uchiha and knows how to fight them-don't look at them in their eyes.
> 
> Itachi needs a buildup to use Amaterasu. He has a charge time. He doesn't 'spam' it, he only has two shots of it. Amaterasu has been outran, dodged, and blocked. Jiraiya can do all three.
> 
> ...


Itachi not being prepared to use Tsukuyomi? He did it 1 minute later, the fact that Itachi was a good guy takes the relevance from your statement away. He also used Amaterasu right after tsukuyomi. So how was he not prepared 

And no, Jiraiya is actually more arrogant than Orochimaru, this is the man who danced in front of the Akatsuki leader who was armed with the dojutsu of legend and defeated Hanzo.

Susano'o is a spirit, he has no physical mass so how would that make him sink faster?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> Itachi not being prepared to use Tsukuyomi? He did it 1 minute later, the fact that Itachi was a good guy takes the relevance from your statement away. He also used Amaterasu right after tsukuyomi. So how was he not prepared


He was forced to use those. Honestly, if Jiraiya and Gai pursued, victory would be questionable, given Itachi's exhaustion



> [
> And no, Jiraiya is actually more arrogant than Orochimaru, this is the man who danced in front of the Akatsuki leader who was armed with the dojutsu of legend and defeated Hanzo.


The databook actually covers this. This is Jiraiya's way of psyching himself up and giving himself courage, confidence and resolve for the battle. 
During the fight, he took Pain very seriously. Plus, his heart was breaking at having to kill his beloved student.




> Susano'o is a spirit, he has no physical mass so how would that make him sink faster?


It wouldn't, but it wouldn't help if Jiraiya makes the swamp huge enough


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## Bloo (Jun 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He was forced to use those. Honestly, if Jiraiya and Gai pursued, victory would be questionable, given Itachi's exhaustion


He wasn't forced to use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke.


> The databook actually covers this. This is Jiraiya's way of psyching himself up and giving himself courage, confidence and resolve for the battle.
> During the fight, he took Pain very seriously. Plus, his heart was breaking at having to kill his beloved student.


Okay, I'll concede about the arroganc. However if that happens when Susano'o is out it's over. So he has to watch using it. Even Amaterasu would cause trouble, so it doesn't change the fact that it's risky.


> It wouldn't, but it wouldn't help if Jiraiya makes the swamp huge enough


I know this much, the post I was responding to said that Susano'o would make him sink faster due to it's weight.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> He wasn't forced to use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke.


Definitely not, but I must question the wisdom of doing so at all when Jiraiya is there. He was forced to use Amaterasu to flee, though, rendering him exhausted and depleting most chakra. If Jiraiya pursued with Gai, I wouldn't fancy Itachi's chances if he couldn't even keep his Sharingan up



> Okay, I'll concede about the arroganc. However if that happens when Susano'o is out it's over. So he has to watch using it. Even Amaterasu would cause trouble, so it doesn't change the fact that it's risky.


However, Jiraiya isn't likely to do this at an advanced stage, when he sees Susanoo form. That's going to be a straight sign to take things seriously. Jiraiya only seems to do poses at the battle's start, too.

Amaterasu would be dangerous, but Jiraiya can clear LoS before use.




> I know this much, the post I was responding to said that Susano'o would make him sink faster due to it's weight.


Fair enough.

Do you object to the statement that a fight between these two could go either way?


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 20, 2010)

I say itachi hits jiraya with a shuriken barrage, and behind the last shuriken, he will look directly at jiraya, casting tsukuyomi, and leaving only the frogs to pick up the pieces.

then he makes frog legs with a katon.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

How precisely would a shuriken work on someone in Sage Mode? It's liable to bounce off.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2010)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I say itachi hits jiraya with a shuriken barrage, and behind the last shuriken, he will look directly at jiraya, casting tsukuyomi, and leaving only the frogs to pick up the pieces.
> 
> then he makes frog legs with a katon.


1. You know that'll do didly squat, right? The shurikens'll bounce right off Jiraiya's skin like they're nothing. And Jiraiya won't be hit by Tsukuyomi, he can fight blind in Sage Mode.

2. A Katon which'll do...nothing.

You're not even trying.


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## Bloo (Jun 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Do you object to the statement that a fight between these two could go either way?


Certainly not! Jiraiya's biggest concern when fighting Itachi is genjutsu since he has stated that he sucks in the field. However Jiraiya has advantages over Itachi, and the main one is numbers(summonings) as it's Itachi's biggest weakness. Of course Itachi will be able to take out a few with MS however he can't maintain it long. So in the end it could go either way, in no way am I denying this, like you did with the Sharingan Team vs. Pain thread. I'm defending Itachi in certain points not necessarily that he wins with ease. Just defending certain false accusations. This battle is too close to go into so I tend not to go into it. Itachi may be my favorite character by a landslide but I am big enough to say when he loses.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> Certainly not! Jiraiya's biggest concern when fighting Itachi is genjutsu since he has stated that he sucks in the field. However Jiraiya has advantages over Itachi, and the main one is numbers as it's Itachi's biggest weakness. Of course Itachi will be able to take out a few with MS however he can't maintain it long. So in the end it could go either way, in no way am I denying this, like you did with the Sharingan Team vs. Pain thread. I'm defending Itachi in certain points not necessarily that he wins with ease. Just defending certain false accusations. This battle is too close to go into so I tend not to go into it. Itachi may be my favorite character by a landslide but I am big enough to say when he loses.



Well, if I can comment. It's not so much Jiraiya sucks with Genjutsu period. He's just not a Genjutsu user or genjutsu type. I mean, Gai isn't either, but he could overcome Kabuto's A-rank genjutsu. Remember, he gave that speech to Naruto that even if they aren't Genjutsu types, some enemies will be and so they have to know exactly how to deal with it. While I'm not denying Genjutsu will be a problem, Sage Mode, Shima and Fukasaku and Jiraiya's own intellect and presumable skill at breaking it will come into play. 

My opinion is when they're at their best, it could go either way. Itachi has a clear advantage in Genjutsu, though Jiraiya has a major one in Taijutsu here and in basic arsenals, Ninjutsu as well, though the MS Ninjutsu rounds it out. Jiraiya's too strong to engage directly because a single blow can likely cripple or kill. Stamina is Jiraiya's best bet as he can spam attacks freely while Itachi has to conserve and speed, thanks to SM, likely Jiraiya, but I can't see Itachi overwhelmed.

MS is definitely what it'll come down to. It's really a matter who lands a killing hit first, hence why I see the two as pretty much equal, even if I give a minor nod to Jiraiya at times.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. You know that'll do didly squat, right? The shurikens'll bounce right off Jiraiya's skin like they're nothing. And Jiraiya won't be hit by Tsukuyomi, he can fight blind in Sage Mode.


But he won't because that is incapacitating.

And yes, the shuriken would bounce of his skin, but it triggers a reflex. that is what is needed. that moment to destract him so that his eyes are open. Jiraya needs not look at itachi, but as long as itachi can see jiraya's eyes, he's screwed.



> 2. A Katon which'll do...nothing.
> 
> You're not even trying.



Fine... make it an enton. the ni dai sennin have nothing to properly protect against that.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 20, 2010)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> But he won't because that is incapacitating.
> 
> And yes, the shuriken would bounce of his skin, but it triggers a reflex. that is what is needed. that moment to destract him so that his eyes are open. Jiraya needs not look at itachi, but as long as itachi can see jiraya's eyes, he's screwed.


\
that's an if. Jiraiya's going to be attacking at a fast pace. And shurikens will be bounding off quite uselessly.

Plus, there is a chance Jiraiya can withstand Tsukuyomi due to willpower. The man willed himself back to life on sheer force of will.

Itachi has to use the MS against Jiraiya here. Nothing else in his arsenal will work.



> Fine... make it an enton. the ni dai sennin have nothing to properly protect against that.


Since...when can Itachi use Enton?


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## Bloo (Jun 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Well, if I can comment. It's not so much Jiraiya sucks with Genjutsu period. He's just not a Genjutsu user or genjutsu type. I mean, Gai isn't either, but he could overcome Kabuto's A-rank genjutsu. Remember, he gave that speech to Naruto that even if they aren't Genjutsu types, some enemies will be and so they have to know exactly how to deal with it. While I'm not denying Genjutsu will be a problem, Sage Mode, Shima and Fukasaku and Jiraiya's own intellect and presumable skill at breaking it will come into play.
> 
> My opinion is when they're at their best, it could go either way. Itachi has a clear advantage in Genjutsu, though Jiraiya has a major one in Taijutsu here and in basic arsenals, Ninjutsu as well, though the MS Ninjutsu rounds it out. Jiraiya's too strong to engage directly because a single blow can likely cripple or kill. Stamina is Jiraiya's best bet as he can spam attacks freely while Itachi has to conserve and speed, thanks to SM, likely Jiraiya, but I can't see Itachi overwhelmed.
> 
> MS is definitely what it'll come down to. It's really a matter who lands a killing hit first, hence why I see the two as pretty much equal, even if I give a minor nod to Jiraiya at times.


Agreed, Itachi and Jiraiya are the two shinobi who you don't want to face alone. And that's why Pain can beat them because he remedies it, while either of them can defeat any one pain body.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jun 21, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> Agreed, Itachi and Jiraiya are the two shinobi who you don't want to face alone. And that's why Pain can beat them because he remedies it, while either of them can defeat any one pain body.



So you're saying that one of them can't defeat "ONE" pain body while Jiraiya defeated one. And you also once said in a thread that Itachi could beat Asura realm. I think you're confusing yourself 3spn. I get what you mean though. My answer is Itachi because Jiraiya can't really counter at least a majority of his attacks. That's a huge problem when facing Itachi.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

Pretty much, yep. Except current Naruto, Pain Bee Kabuto, A, and Danzo, I'd rank them as the highest and even then, most of those people'd be on the same tier. (Orochimaru's a bit tricky, since it's a moveset/matchup thing)
One thing that's also interesting to discuss: If Tsukuyomi hits, would it guarantee a KO? Jiraiya might have enough willpower to overcome the agony or trauma given his feat with Pain.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> So you're saying that one of them can't defeat "ONE" pain body while Jiraiya defeated one. And you also once said in a thread that Itachi could beat Asura realm. I think you're confusing yourself 3spn. I get what you mean though. My answer is Itachi because Jiraiya can't really counter at least a majority of his attacks. That's a huge problem when facing Itachi.


I said that either Itachi or Jiraiya could defeat any single pain. Whether it be Deva, Asura, Animal, Preta, Human, or Naraka. Either of them could defeat and lone pain. So I don't see how I'm confusing myself.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> \
> that's an if. Jiraiya's going to be attacking at a fast pace. And shurikens will be bounding off quite uselessly.
> 
> Plus, there is a chance Jiraiya can withstand Tsukuyomi due to willpower. The man willed himself back to life on sheer force of will.
> ...



Hurp derp .

The shuriken are destractions. (just like IRL)
And you think making your heart beat after it stops equates with withstanding psychological torture that transcends the limits of time? Kakashi resisted it because he had the sharingan... for about a second, then he was comatose until tsunade decided to heal him.

You are underrating genjutsu, pal...



Jiraya's pace is manigible... unless you are in that camp that thinks SM= shunshin.



> Since...when can Itachi use Enton?


well, I equate ameterasu with an enton, but to be more literal, it is the production of the inferno element on a surface. It is the manefestation of enton chakra, rather than an enton jutsu.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 21, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. Before Kushina even helped him regain his peace, he had injured Kyubi twice.
> 2. Thats what Kyuubi thought, remarking how strong Naruto is.
> 3. Avoid it. Its not unavoidable. Or use a clone to block.
> 4. Uh, no. Naruto in Sage Mode covered over a hundred meters in a second. He's faster than A is. And A destroyed Sasuke in speed, your point?
> ...



naruto isnt that fast thats insane, if he was he would have blitzed all the pain bodies in no time, when he took down asura that was just a dynamin entry and not his actual speed


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## Dariustwinblade (Jun 21, 2010)

AGAIN Pain has a actual PROOVEN HYPERSONIC speed fleat/reaction fleat that NONE of the other characters have. Stop putting Pain into this he has something that prooves his speed. SHOW me a calc of the Raikage that PROOVES him to be faster than Pain.


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## Kisame (Jun 21, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya didn't have knowledge _at the time_ about Tsukuyomi, but Itachi didn't even attempt to use it. If Itachi did use Tsukuyomi though, potentially Jiraiya could be taken out, but he can take a hell of a lot of punishment.



But he had knowledge on the sharingan in General,and he would know not to look in their eyes,but he didnt


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 21, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> AGAIN Pain has a actual PROOVEN HYPERSONIC speed fleat/reaction fleat that NONE of the other characters have. Stop putting Pain into this he has something that prooves his speed. SHOW me a calc of the Raikage that PROOVES him to be faster than Pain.



whats the feat that makes pain that fast?


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## Aoshi (Jun 21, 2010)

prasanth said:


> whats the feat that makes pain that fast?



_When he dodged Naruto's FRS from a very close distance._


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 21, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _When he dodged Naruto's FRS from a very close distance._



he didnt dodge he just repelled it, big difference


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## Aoshi (Jun 21, 2010)

prasanth said:


> he didnt dodge he just repelled it, big difference



_No, he didn't.

_


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## narutogeass (Jun 21, 2010)

itachi wins he has sasnoo and a hax sword and hes a lighting timer  jiraiya went out in a sad way but itachi went out with hax


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## Paranoid Android (Jun 21, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> nah,Naruto has the fox on a leash now,he wont prevent ma and pa from fusing,Also I believe the War has many things in store for us:
> -Itachi Tsukiyomi will Eventually be broken
> -Edo tensei will be beaten by something other than soulrip
> -Kabuto is Awesome!!



I agree with your  points. Edo tenseis have to be beaten by something other than Shiki Fuuujin.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 21, 2010)

narutogeass said:


> itachi wins he has sasnoo and a hax sword and hes a lighting timer  jiraiya went out in a sad way but itachi went out with hax


You do know Itachi's Susano'o couldn't stand up to Kirin and his Sword is unlikely to hit Jiraiya in Sage Mode. What happens with Yomi Numa + Frog Croak + Toad Food Crusher?


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know Itachi's Susano'o couldn't stand up to Kirin and his Sword is unlikely to hit Jiraiya in Sage Mode. What happens with Yomi Numa + Frog Croak + Toad Food Crusher?


You do realize that Susano'o doesn't come out with full power in 1/1000 seconds right? It takes a little longer for Susano'o to form. So when it does, Jiraiya has nothing to penetrate it with and can only avoid it. Nothing in Jiraiya's arsenal equals Susano'o so if he's to win he needs to stay clear of it. And how is it unlikely Itachi will hit Jiraiya with the Totsuka Sword.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

3espn, I thinmk I'd beg to differ. We've seen Ssuke summon his full Susanoo more or less instantly.

If Jiraiya hits Susanoo in the back with Chou Oodama Rasengan, it could penetrate. and if he uses Yomi Numa, it MIGHT bypass it


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> 3espn, I thinmk I'd beg to differ. We've seen Ssuke summon his full Susanoo more or less instantly.
> 
> If Jiraiya hits Susanoo in the back with Chou Oodama Rasengan, it could penetrate. and if he uses Yomi Numa, it MIGHT bypass it


Yes, but as I said Itachi's Susano'o>Sasuke's Susano'o especially at the Raikage battle. If Susano'o develops fully Jiraiya will need to keep his distance to wear Itachi out. An Odoma Rasengan would be blocked by Yata Mirror. As it seems Susano'o can still turn around.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

Yes, but Susanoo still has to move. If Jiraiya uses some strategy with a bunshin, he could catch it with a COR from behind, which could very well damage it. 

I was also referring to when Sasuke fought Kakashi. He summoned it immediately there.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yes, but Susanoo still has to move. If Jiraiya uses some strategy with a bunshin, he could catch it with a COR from behind, which could very well damage it.
> 
> I was also referring to when Sasuke fought Kakashi. He summoned it immediately there.


I don't think the reference to Sasuke/Kakashi fight is accurate. Because there was an off-panel fight. We know this because they were originally on the bridge and Sasuke starts running towards Kakashi, then we see them on the lake with Susano'o out. So the validity in that statement isn't for sure. And of course, Jiraiya can experiment, but it's too risky. If he plays it safe by staying away and waiting for Itachi to have to let it go do to exhaustion then he should attack.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

Well, we see Sasuke without Susanoo around him-remember, there's a noticeable tinge when it's there, Mangekyo eyes activated and open (like it was at the summit, same style, basically), then Susanoo is there firing an arrow. 

Jiraiya can hide, but he doesn't really lose much by sending in a bunshin.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Well, we see Sasuke without Susanoo around him-remember, there's a noticeable tinge when it's there, Mangekyo eyes activated and open (like it was at the summit, same style, basically), then Susanoo is there firing an arrow.
> 
> Jiraiya can hide, but he doesn't really lose much by sending in a bunshin.


I agree about the bunshin, but the real one needs to stay clear of him and use kage bunshins to investigate.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

Yep, not disagreeing. I think Fukasaku and Shima would confirm that.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yep, not disagreeing. I think Fukasaku and Shima would confirm that.


Patience is a virtue after all.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

Though I won't deny trying to outright confront Susanoo is...risky at the least.

Jiraiya does have the chakra to send in bunshin at least. And use some attacks to delay it.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Though I won't deny trying to outright confront Susanoo is...risky at the least.
> 
> Jiraiya does have the chakra to send in bunshin at least. And use some attacks to delay it.


I agree, that would be his main option here.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 21, 2010)

Jeez a civil discussion between an Itachi and Jiraiya fan? WOW!!!! I guess not all hope is lost for this forum. I am not sure why it is so difficult for some, myself included, to avoid vitriol on this forum


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Jeez a civil discussion between an Itachi and Jiraiya fan? WOW!!!! I guess not all hope is lost for this forum. I am not sure why it is so difficult for some, myself included, to avoid vitriol on this forum


And this is shocking why?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

Well, some posters who will remain nameless think Itachi can solo the Sannin, beat Pain, all nine Bijuu, etc etc.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Well, some posters who will remain nameless think Itachi can solo the Sannin, beat Pain, all nine Bijuu, etc etc.



*Dark messiah verdandi* :ho

With knowledge and prep of course...


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Well, some posters who will remain nameless think Itachi can solo the Sannin, beat Pain, all nine Bijuu, etc etc.


They give a bad reputation for my fandom. He can potentially solo any Sannin(Orochimaru is cannon), however Jiraiya would be the one he'd have trouble with. All nine Bijuu? His main chances are Amaterasu and Tosuka Sword. And No he cannot beat pain, he can beat any one realm though.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

I don't disagree with anything there...all 9 Bijuu's the most egregious, though. The Kyuubi alone is wicked fast and powerful and more than a match for nearly any single character. Throw in the Hachibi and heck, even Shukaku.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I don't disagree with anything there...all 9 Bijuu's the most egregious, though. The Kyuubi alone is wicked fast and powerful and more than a match for nearly any single character. Throw in the Hachibi and heck, even Shukaku.


Yes his only chances, that doesn't mean it's determined as fact. The chances that he were to hit any of them with Totsuka before he's killed is very low. But if he somehow managed to get them with it, it's over. And Amaterasu, hmm.... I practically only said that based off of what happened to Hachibi and Sasuke. But Kyuubi seems to have much more endurance than the Hachibi.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 21, 2010)

The problem is, canonaly, itachi can control ALL bijuu. It is the power bestowed by his mangekyou. so that is a non-factor.

As for pain, with a good strategy, knowledge, and a nice supply of ninja tools, itachi could beat him as well. This fight would be EXTREMELY conditional.

And for the sannin, tsunade would get her jutsu copied, and itachi could very well cripple her with it.

Orochimaru has been beaten on occasion

And jiraya is just as vulnerable, if not MORESO.

He has no real defence against genjutsu, and itachi has the potential to tear him to pieces.

It sounds like fandom to people who are fans of all of the other stuff, but take a CLEAR look at itachi's movesets, and you will see how high his potential really was.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> The problem is, canonaly, itachi can control ALL bijuu. It is the power bestowed by his mangekyou. so that is a non-factor.


Wrong... The Mangekyou only controls the Kyuubi for some reason.



> As for pain, with a good strategy, knowledge, and a nice supply of ninja tools, itachi could beat him as well. This fight would be EXTREMELY conditional.


The pains would have to be separated and not together.



> And for the sannin, tsunade would get her jutsu copied, and itachi could very well cripple her with it.


Itachi would win, but he has never copied a jutsu from what we've seen.



> Orochimaru has been beaten on occasion


Just a few 



> And jiraya is just as vulnerable, if not MORESO.


This is the Sannin' he'd have problems with.



> He has no real defence against genjutsu, and itachi has the potential to tear him to pieces.


Other than summonings, and also Tsukuyomi would be an ending move.



> It sounds like fandom to people who are fans of all of the other stuff, but take a CLEAR look at itachi's movesets, and you will see how high his potential really was.


This is called lack of impartiality, and I can name a few members(won't say who so don't ask) on who do this quite frequently.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 21, 2010)

For an Itachi fan you seem to not understand his powers



dark messiah verdandi said:


> The problem is, canonaly, itachi can control ALL bijuu. It is the power bestowed by his mangekyou. so that is a non-factor.



1. MS is said to control the kyuubi not all bijuu. If you have ANY evidence for this canon of yours provide it
2. Having the potential to control bijuu does not translate to being able to control them. Look at Tenzou, canonically, he can control all bijuu but yet he struggles against kyuubi



dark messiah verdandi said:


> As for pain, with a good strategy, knowledge, and a nice supply of ninja tools, itachi could beat him as well. This fight would be EXTREMELY conditional.



Itachi could never defeat Pein even with full knowledge. The reason?

1. The fight would be protracted, which does not bode well for Itachi's low chakra supply
2. Itachi cannot defeat Pein without MS, which means he would need to abuse amaterasu and susano'o, which would doom him
3. All his jutsu are useless against Pein



dark messiah verdandi said:


> And for the sannin, tsunade would get her jutsu copied, and itachi could very well cripple her with it.



You do not understand the sharingan. Copying jutsu does not mean you can replicate it, that is the purview of the rinnegan. Itachi does not have the level of chakra control of a medical ninja, even if he copied Tsunade's jutsu he could not replicate most of them




dark messiah verdandi said:


> Orochimaru has been beaten on occasion
> 
> And jiraya is just as vulnerable, if not MORESO.



Again, you do not understand Itachi's powers. Against multiple opponents, Itachi's powers are useless



dark messiah verdandi said:


> He has no real defence against genjutsu, and itachi has the potential to tear him to pieces.



REALLY?? Let's read Kishi

Konoha One Hundred Leaves Collection ~ Number Forty-Three

| The Solution to the Common Traits of Genjutsu |

[picture of Naruto trying to escape from Itachi's Genjutsu]
←It's possible to master "genjutsu escaping" by training. Even those who don't use genjutsu will want to learn this.

As there are different types of genjutsu ?those that are invoked using handseals and those that make use of doujutsu like the "Sharingan"? so are there different ways of dealing with them.

Against doujutsu:
The general rule is to fight with two against one. When one person falls victim to the technique, their comrade can attack the user and cancel it.

Against genjutsu (other then doujutsu):
Either intentionally disarrange the flow of chakra inside ones body, or have a third party disturb it.

Read the above and tell me why Jiraiya who ALWAYS uses summons does not have defense against genjutsu?????



dark messiah verdandi said:


> It sounds like fandom to people who are fans of all of the other stuff, but take a CLEAR look at itachi's movesets, and you will see how high his potential really was.



Maybe you have rational answers for my objections then. If you do not, you clear are a fanboy


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> Yes his only chances, that doesn't mean it's determined as fact. The chances that he were to hit any of them with Totsuka before he's killed is very low. But if he somehow managed to get them with it, it's over. And Amaterasu, hmm.... I practically only said that based off of what happened to Hachibi and Sasuke. But Kyuubi seems to have much more endurance than the Hachibi.



Well, even with susanoo, I doubt he has the stamina to tag all 9 Bijuu and take tem out...and one of them is going to nail him with a blast sooner or later.

I don't think there's anyone save RS who has even a snowball's chance in hell to defeat 9 Bijuu at once, really.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Well, even with susanoo, I doubt he has the stamina to tag all 9 Bijuu and take tem out...and one of them is going to nail him with a blast sooner or later.
> 
> I don't think there's anyone save RS who has even a snowball's chance in hell to defeat 9 Bijuu at once, really.



This. What he said.


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## Cursed Avenger (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yes, but there's a sincere whiplash to all this when you consider some really awful things Itachi did that he went out of his way to do. The way to make a hero is not to tell us that he's a hero. That leads to things like Designated Hero when they get away with terrible, awful things because "We're the good guys."
> That isn't good writing.



I don't know about you, but I was always under the impression that there was more to Itachi that what was being presented, that he wasn't just the murderer that everyone painted him to be. 
I don't know what whiplash you're referring to. A majority of people wondered about about his actual nature back in part one when he was shown in flashbacks as a caring brother. It's not surprising that he was a good guy. As for the awful things he did, he could have done much worse 



> Ask Yahiko?



Since when does fodder count  



> He loved and wanted the best for Naruto. Maiming its future seems counterproductive. If Naruto was maimed, Kisame would've taken him.



Wait...what? Itachi loved and wanted the best for Naruto? I'm confused by this paragraph


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## Peinforever (Jun 21, 2010)

Jiraya and Itachi both take heavy damage regardless of who wins


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Well, even with susanoo, I doubt he has the stamina to tag all 9 Bijuu and take tem out...and one of them is going to nail him with a blast sooner or later.
> 
> I don't think there's anyone save RS who has even a snowball's chance in hell to defeat 9 Bijuu at once, really.


Wait they said at the same time  I was talking about one on one. Dang if that's true it makes my fandom look horrible.


Senjuclan said:


> For an Itachi fan you seem to not understand his powers


This was posted under my comment, were talking to me when you said this?


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 21, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> Wrong... The Mangekyou only controls the Kyuubi for some reason.


Wrong. The databook says that sasuke, and by extention ALL uchiha can control bijuu. It uses manda as an example that genjutsu is what controls magical beasts.



> The pains would have to be separated and not together.


less they all get PWNED by an ameterasu, or a bunshin daibakuha.



> Itachi would win, but he has never copied a jutsu from what we've seen.


This is a silly answer. that is an inherant feature of the sharingan.



> Just a few






> This is the Sannin' he'd have problems with.


OH! you mean all at once?!
then yeah. itachi gets crushed.



> Other than summonings, and also Tsukuyomi would be an ending move.


UMM... that isn't an internal defense. it is from an outside source, thus is strategic aid, rather than a defense.



> This is called lack of impartiality, and I can name a few members(won't say who so don't ask) on who do this quite frequently.


Thank you for a more formal definition of the behavior.



Senjuclan said:


> For an Itachi fan you seem to not understand his powers
> 
> 1. MS is said to control the kyuubi not all bijuu. If you have ANY evidence for this canon of yours provide it
> 2. Having the potential to control bijuu does not translate to being able to control them. Look at Tenzou, canonically, he can control all bijuu but yet he struggles against kyuubi



1.
 It is genjutsu which controls them, not some mysterious power that hasn't yet been shown. just MS genjutsu, which can't be broken, regardless of the chakra amount. 

2. It is because he does not have the same potential with his mokuton as hashirama. It is an implant, thus, like kakashi's implant it isn't optimized to be used by him. This creates insufficient results.



> Itachi could never defeat Pein even with full knowledge. The reason?
> 
> 1. The fight would be protracted, which does not bode well for Itachi's low chakra supply
> 2. Itachi cannot defeat Pein without MS, which means he would need to abuse amaterasu and susano'o, which would doom him
> 3. All his jutsu are useless against Pein



With knowledge, itachi would know who to kill first. preta and naraku realm can't TOUCH itachi, so they would be taken out with relative ease. Then it is only a case of using bunshin to fuck up tendou's powers.

EASY. the rest are taken down easily.



> You do not understand the sharingan. Copying jutsu does not mean you can replicate it, that is the purview of the rinnegan. Itachi does not have the level of chakra control of a medical ninja, even if he copied Tsunade's jutsu he could not replicate most of them



Wait... what??? creation is the perview of the rin'negan, not replication. Replication and copying are the same thing...

And if YOU didn't know, the sharingan copies the movement of chakra along with the weaving of handsigns. Uchiha have perfect chakra control with the sharingan because of that. It copies the movements of chakra and then replicates the process within the uchiha, thus creating a perfect copy of a jutsu only seen once.

It functions regardless of actual skill of chakra control, because that is how normal people train. sharingan copies the chakra control.

it is you who don't understand the sharingan... not at all.




> Again, you do not understand Itachi's powers. Against multiple opponents, Itachi's powers are useless


It takes FAR more time to summon than to cast ocular genjutsu, which can also be multi-targeted. you all act like the instance he sees them he WON'T genjutsu the lot of them. that is what is really out of character.

He needs not use tsukuyomi, because by the time they are in the regular genjutsu, and attempt to break out, they will already be on fire.

REALLY?? Let's read Kishi



> Konoha One Hundred Leaves Collection ~ Number Forty-Three
> 
> | The Solution to the Common Traits of Genjutsu |
> 
> ...



It's aid, not a defense. summoners are aided. It's like saying cannon fodder are my defense against gunfire. sick, yes... and still grammatically wrong.




> Maybe you have rational answers for my objections then. If you do not, you clear are a fanboy



Im nineteen god-dammit. I am a fan-*MAN*


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

Cursed Avenger said:


> I don't know about you, but I was always under the impression that there was more to Itachi that what was being presented, that he wasn't just the murderer that everyone painted him to be.
> 
> I don't know what whiplash you're referring to. A majority of people wondered about about his actual nature back in part one when he was shown in flashbacks as a caring brother. It's not surprising that he was a good guy. As for the awful things he did, he could have done much worse


No, but there's a difference between 'more than meets the eye' which I knew as well, but his "YOU'RE MY LIGHT!" explanation gels a lot better than the 'tragic hero one.'

He could've done much worse, but small comfort for what he did do.




> Since when does fodder count


Oi, Yahiko was great.




> Wait...what? Itachi loved and wanted the best for Naruto? I'm confused by this paragraph


Heh, sorry. 'Konoha.'



3spn4life said:


> Wait they said at the same time  I was talking about one on one. Dang if that's true it makes my fandom look horrible.
> 
> This was posted under my comment, were talking to me when you said this?



Yeeeah. Nine at once.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeeeah. Nine at once.


That's just arrogance.


dark messiah verdandi said:


> Wrong. The databook says that sasuke, and by extention ALL uchiha can control bijuu. It uses manda as an example that genjutsu is what controls magical beasts.


It says in the manga, the ability to control the Nine tails. Not the ability to control Bijuu. Until you quote that part from the databook here on NF I'll stand by my post.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

Yeah. It has the 'ability' to do so, but worth noting the only one who has done so is Madara.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah. It has the 'ability' to do so, but worth noting the only one who has done so is Madara.


It states this in the Databook, because it seems that Kishimoto wants for the Kyuubi and Uchiha to be connected. Not bijuu in general.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 21, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> That's just arrogance.
> 
> It says in the manga, the ability to control the Nine tails. Not the ability to control Bijuu. Until you quote that part from the databook here on NF I'll stand by my post.



... THE PAGE ITSELF IS IN THE "SPOILER" OF THE SAME POST...

There is no special connection between the uchiha and kyuubi except that madara controlled it, and it was the only bijuu left for them to control.

The rest were either in hashirama's possession, or in different countries, which they were not normally allowed to go to without permission, because they had jobs as MP's.

the link is there was no other bijuu for them to tame.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jun 21, 2010)

Itachi, he's my BEST FRIEND, honest  

Itachi would not lose to such a perve. On databook they are equal, but that does not make Jiraiya stronger. Itachi's stamina is what makes him equal to Jiraiya. Will Jiraiya be able to get out of any of Itachi's Genjutsu? Seriously? He can get Ma and Pa, but by that time Jiraiya would have already fallen.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 21, 2010)

Oh, I know. I was referring to just the Kyuubi.


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## Smiley (Jun 21, 2010)

1311 Replies :amazed


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## Monzaemon (Jun 22, 2010)

This topic has never been done before, ever.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2010)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> 1.
> It is genjutsu which controls them, not some mysterious power that hasn't yet been shown.



OK, you need to keep context in mind. This is what the manga says:

1. MS controls kyuubi
2. It does control bijuu through genjutsu the same way that Sasuke controlled Manda
3. However, Sasuke did not use MS to control Manda
4. MS is SPECIFICALLY said to control kyuubi not the other bijuu

When you take all of this into context, you come to the conclusion that the power to extend bijuu does not extend to any other bijuu but kyuubi. The manga supports this as well.

1. Sasuke fought Kyuubi and supressed its chakra without MS but he fought Hachibi with MS and could not supress its chakra or control it
2. Itachi and Sasuke after reading the Uchiha tablets said that the price you pay for controlling kyuubi was blindness not the price you pay for controlling bijuu



dark messiah verdandi said:


> just MS genjutsu, which can't be broken, regardless of the chakra amount.



If MS genjutsu could not be broken Madara would have beaten shodai. The databook says that Madara used genjutsu on those who looked into his eyes carelessly. Shodai looked into his eyes and still beat him, that means MS genjutsu can be broken 



dark messiah verdandi said:


> 2. It is because he does not have the same potential with his mokuton as hashirama. It is an implant, thus, like kakashi's implant it isn't optimized to be used by him. This creates insufficient results.



FALSE. Itachi is a born Uchiha, yet he cannot use susano'o as long as Sasuke because of his lower chakra level. 



dark messiah verdandi said:


> With knowledge, itachi would know who to kill first. preta and naraku realm can't TOUCH itachi, so they would be taken out with relative ease. Then it is only a case of using bunshin to fuck up tendou's powers.
> 
> EASY. the rest are taken down easily.



 You are kidding, right? Bunshin would be repelled with deva's powers and disappear. The real Itachi would then be continnually bombarded by summons while preta sucks up susano'o



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Wait... what??? creation is the perview of the rin'negan, not replication. Replication and copying are the same thing...



1. The rinnegan allows you to LEARN ninjutsu not to create ninjutsu
[naruto=375]11[/naruto]
2. Replication and copy are not one and the same, remember Sasuke vs. Lee. After copying Lee's movements, Sasuke was still unable to replicate them until he trained to achieve Lee's level speed



dark messiah verdandi said:


> And if YOU didn't know, the sharingan copies the movement of chakra along with the weaving of handsigns. Uchiha have perfect chakra control with the sharingan because of that. It copies the movements of chakra and then replicates the process within the uchiha, thus creating a perfect copy of a jutsu only seen once.
> 
> It functions regardless of actual skill of chakra control, because that is how normal people train. sharingan copies the chakra control.
> 
> it is you who don't understand the sharingan... not at all.



The Sharingan's true power, in addition to the threat posed by its insight... is its copying ability, that of making one's own any technique one sets eyes upon. Chakra, handseals... all the principles bringing the jutsu into existence will be recorded into the caster's memory in the blink of an eye, making its utilization possible. *Of course, the necessary volume of chakra and physical ability requirements must be met*, but should one find themselves in some kind of dire situation, the Uchiha blood will demonstrate its accumulated experience, and never will those who have inherited it know any limits 

Sharingan does not copy chakra control. Remember the walking on trees training. Sasuke did not copy the chakra control of Sakura. Even after that training, she still had better chakra control than him regardless of his sharingan. 



dark messiah verdandi said:


> It takes FAR more time to summon than to cast ocular genjutsu, which can also be multi-targeted. you all act like the instance he sees them he WON'T genjutsu the lot of them. that is what is really out of character.



It takes no time to summon for a master like Pein or Jiraiya. They are extremely fast. Itachi cannot multi-target with his sharingan. If he could why did he not genjutsu the lot of Kakashi, Naruto, Chiyo and Saskura?????



dark messiah verdandi said:


> He needs not use tsukuyomi, because by the time they are in the regular genjutsu, and attempt to break out, they will already be on fire.



1. Itachi cannot spam tsukuyomi 
2. Tsukuyomi is an ocular genjutsu and Pein's formation would not allow all realms to see Itachi's eyes (some realms are in front of others)
3. The other paths will not be standing there doing nothing



dark messiah verdandi said:


> It's aid, not a defense. summoners are aided. It's like saying cannon fodder are my defense against gunfire. sick, yes... and still grammatically wrong.



Well, I am happy repeating grammatical mistakes that Kishi make. Kishi calls it a solution to genjutsu not an aid to fighting genjutsu



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Im nineteen god-dammit. I am a fan-*MAN*



Tell me something I did not already know. You are a fanxxx


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2010)

Actually, I don't find the idea of Itachi potentially beating Pain under the right conditions, or beating the 3 Sannin, that much of a stretch. 

On the other hand, soloing all 9 Bijuu? After what we saw coming from the Kyubi and the Hachibi? That, combined with the powers of the other 8 Bijuu?



Oh god, that's nothing but obvious fanwank.

Don't take me as an Itachi-tard for the first two opinions of mine, though. 

And I agree with Senjuclan, the idea that some Itachi and Jiraiya fans at least can debate with each other properly without flaming the other, or letting bias get in the way, is something amazing. Goes to show that nothing may not be perfect, but at least nothing is beyond saving either.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 22, 2010)

....beating all three Sannin? Together?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> ....beating all three Sannin? Together?



Tsunade wouldn't be much of a problem, not at all. Orochimaru and Jiraiya, on the other hand, will force Itachi to bring out Susano'o.

To tell the truth, Itachi just wasted Orochimaru HARD in that encounter, even after being greatly weakened and exhausted, in no small part due to his illness andwhat not. I doubt adding a ninja equal in power to Orochimaru alongside him would help against Itachi. And Tsunade's really a negligible factor within a battle of powerhouses like those three.

Not that it wouldn't be very tough, but Itachi would still be able to manage it.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Actually, I don't find the idea of Itachi potentially beating Pain under the right conditions, or beating the 3 Sannin, that much of a stretch.
> 
> Don't take me as an Itachi-tard for the first two opinions of mine, though.



1. Itachi beating Pein even with knowledge is a HUGE stretch. Itachi cannot even beat Kakashi without MS. Against Pein he DEFINITELY needs MS to survive two minutes. Once he uses it, it becomes a double edged sword for him. Pein would last very long because he can raise himself while Itachi cannot last long because of his low level of chakra. He cannot spam MS jutsu either because they temporarily incapacitate him leaving vulnerable. Pein on the other hand has LOTS of bodies to sacrifice.

2. Itachi beating the tree sannin is simply impossible. His MS sharingan is need to just fight on equal footing with the sannin. However, amaterasu is useless because of their healing and regenerative powers. Tsukuyomi would not help since he is not going to have three people looking into his eyes at the same time. The sannin have moves to finish Itachi with.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 22, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Tsunade wouldn't be much of a problem, not at all. Orochimaru and Jiraiya, on the other hand, will force Itachi to bring out Susano'o.


Tsunade 'won't be a problem?' Umm...Katsuyu? Her sheer ability to fuck up the environment for him? Her unmatched attack prediction and Taijutsu abilities here?



> To tell the truth, Itachi just wasted Orochimaru HARD in that encounter, even after being greatly weakened and exhausted, in no small part due to his illness andwhat not. I doubt adding a ninja equal in power to Orochimaru alongside him would help against Itachi. And Tsunade's really a negligible factor within a battle of powerhouses like those three.


I'm a little tired of hearing how Itachi just 'wasted' him in that encounter. Why did he do that? Because he had Susanoo and Orochimaru wasn't paying any attention and considered it no threat. If Orochimaru is working together with two other Sannin, and someone even Itachi admitted could kill him in a fight to boot (Jiraiya), then Itachi is fucked, plain and simple.

He can't defend himself from everything at once. Jiraiya alone would be able to match him. Orochimaru with Jiraiya alone is absolute overkill.
How does Itachi get past the Rashomon Gates or Katsuyu? Likely, he can't. How does he get past Yomi Numa working in time with a Kusanagi surprise attack? He doesn't.  



> Not that it wouldn't be very tough, but Itachi would still be able to manage it.


No, he wouldn't. He'd die a miserable, horrible death. The Sannin together can't be beat at all. Not by Pain and not by Itachi. What does he have that would even stand a chance? H


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## Jinnobi (Jun 22, 2010)

> 1. Itachi beating Pein even with knowledge is a HUGE stretch. Itachi cannot even beat Kakashi without MS.



They had two encounters. Both times Itachi was (1) casual and (2) pushing Kakashi to his limits. The seconds time it was a clone at 30% chakra, no MS, no killing intent, and not serious at all. He had to "die" or else Kisame would have been suspicious if he simply ran away.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I'm a little tired of hearing how Itachi just 'wasted' him in that encounter. Why did he do that? Because he had Susanoo and Orochimaru wasn't paying any attention and considered it no threat.



So? That's a fault of Orochimaru's character. Taking his character away would make him OOC.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 22, 2010)

Him having knowledge on Itachi, putting him with two level headed teammates, etc, would fix that. Not only that, he was only that arrogant because he thought he could freely take over Sasuke.

Doesn't address that Jiraiya alone would give him a fight.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> They had two encounters. Both times Itachi was (1) casual and (2) pushing Kakashi to his limits. The seconds time it was a clone at 30% chakra, no MS, no killing intent, and not serious at all. He had to "die" or else Kisame would have been suspicious if he simply ran away.



1. I remember Itachi ALWAYS being casual in his fights. Your excuses are starting to sound lame
2. I do not remember Itachi pushing Kakashi to his limits even once. Kakashi defended himself just fine and was able to lend a hand to Kurenai without resorting to high level jutsu the first time. The second time he outsmarted Itachi
3. The no killing intent and not serious at all is wishful thinking on your part
4. Kisame was miles away fighting Gai sensei, how the hell would he know what was going on with Itachi?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Kisame was miles away fighting Gai sensei, how the hell would he know what was going on with Itachi?



This is wrong, though. Those were Shoten Clones. And Kisame and Itachi were sitting atop a high hill and controlling them from there. Did you not see that part? 

But I agree, Base Kakashi > Base Itachi. I'll make a thread about that.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 22, 2010)

> I'm a little tired of hearing how Itachi just 'wasted' him in that encounter. Why did he do that? Because he had Susanoo and Orochimaru wasn't paying any attention and considered it no threat.



Orochimaru wasn't paying attention? He was looking right at Itachi and Susano'o. It was directly in his line-of-sight. He couldn't NOT see Susano'o and look at Itachi.

Orochimaru didn't consider it a threat? That's true, and that's fine. Why? Because Susano'o moved faster than he could comprehend to seal him. Whether you consider something a threat or not is irrelevant if it can move faster than you can think and react to.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Orochimaru wasn't paying attention? He was looking right at Itachi and Susano'o. It was directly in his line-of-sight. He couldn't NOT see Susano'o and look at Itachi.
> 
> Orochimaru didn't consider it a threat? That's true, and that's fine. Why? Because Susano'o moved faster than he could comprehend to seal him. Whether you consider something a threat or not is irrelevant if it can move faster than you can think and react to.



This is very true. Susano'o is underrated in terms of attack speed. Also consider that its sword has no specified limits of extension, as it's just a Kusanagi Blade with sealing properties.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> This is wrong, though. Those were Shoten Clones. And Kisame and Itachi were sitting atop a high hill and controlling them from there. Did you not see that part?



Ok did you understand my contention? REAL Kisame and Itachi were together. However, shouten Kisame and Itachi were miles apart. Real Kisame did not know what shouten Itachi was doing. Look at their conversation when the shouten die for proof


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## Jinnobi (Jun 22, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. I remember Itachi ALWAYS being casual in his fights. Your excuses are starting to sound lame



He was not casual against Sasuke.




> 2. I do not remember Itachi pushing Kakashi to his limits even once. Kakashi defended himself just fine and was able to lend a hand to Kurenai without resorting to high level jutsu the first time.



Kakashi was desperate before Itachi busted out MS. 



> The second time he outsmarted Itachi



Itachi's clone HAD to die or else (1) kill Naruto, Kakashi, and crew OR (2) die. He couldn't run away because Kisame would be suspicious. He wanted to be defeated. Did you see the smile as he got hit by Naruto?




> 3. The no killing intent and not serious at all is wishful thinking on your part



It's actually fully supported by the manga.




> 4. Kisame was miles away fighting Gai sensei, how the hell would he know what was going on with Itachi?



The real Itachi and Kisame were sitting on a hill right next to each other, having a conversation.


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## Frank_Nasty (Jun 22, 2010)

J Man Stomps


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> He was not casual against Sasuke.



Let's see:
1. Fights starts he is casually sitting on a chair
2. Then he uses tsukuyomi casually 
3. Then he is surprised that Sasuke can break it
4. The he chooses to use amaterasu casually

What is the difference betweeen that and Kakashi's fights. He was casual throughout and chose to use a more powerful jutsu when he was in a pinch



Jinnobi said:


> Kakashi was desperate before Itachi busted out MS.



I could say that Itachi was desperate and had to use his most powerful jutsu because nothing he was doing was cutting it. This goes back to my point that without MS, Itachi could not do shit to Kakashi



Jinnobi said:


> Itachi's clone HAD to die or else (1) kill Naruto, Kakashi, and crew OR (2) die. He couldn't run away because Kisame would be suspicious. He wanted to be defeated. Did you see the smile as he got hit by Naruto?



Did Kisame know what Itachi's clone was doing?



Jinnobi said:


> It's actually fully supported by the manga.



You mean it is supported by your bias, right?



Jinnobi said:


> The real Itachi and Kisame were sitting on a hill right next to each other, having a conversation.



Let me ask the question again:

*Did Kisame know what Itachi's clone was doing?*


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## Jinnobi (Jun 22, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Let's see:
> 1. Fights starts he is casually sitting on a chair
> 2. Then he uses tsukuyomi casually
> 3. Then he is surprised that Sasuke can break it
> 4. The he chooses to use amaterasu casually



He has a casual demeanor. However, he wasn't fighting casually with Sasuke. The entire battle was planned to exhaust Sasuke. He wasn't fighting with killer intent - that much is very clear. But his goal was FAR from casual. In most other fights, his purpose was very casual. 



> What is the difference betweeen that and Kakashi's fights. He was casual throughout and chose to use a more powerful jutsu when he was in a pinch



He was never in a pinch against Kakashi.




> I could say that Itachi was desperate and had to use his most powerful jutsu because nothing he was doing was cutting it. This goes back to my point that without MS, Itachi could not do shit to Kakashi



I disagree. Kakashi was no threat to Itachi. 





> Did Kisame know what Itachi's clone was doing?



We don't know. But I'm sure that Pein could detect his own creations.





> You mean it is supported by your bias, right?



No.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2010)

Will you two just stop fighting!?!?!?!!?


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> He has a casual demeanor. However, he wasn't fighting casually with Sasuke. The entire battle was planned to exhaust Sasuke. He wasn't fighting with killer intent - that much is very clear. But his goal was FAR from casual. In most other fights, his purpose was very casual.



OK, let's review your arguments.

1. Fighting with a purpose means you are not fighting casually whether or not you have killing intent
2. Is this your argument?
3. Let's apply it to Kakashi
4. Did Itachi fight Kakashi with a purpose? YES!!!! Did he have killing intent? It does not matter. Therefore, was he fighting casually? NO!!!!!! 



Jinnobi said:


> He was never in a pinch against Kakashi.



He was in a pinch. He wanted to leave but could not since all his jutsu were not working. DUH!!!



Jinnobi said:


> I disagree. Kakashi was no threat to Itachi.



Kakashi was more than he could handle in base. He failed to land a hit. He resorted to his more powerful sharingan



Jinnobi said:


> We don't know. But I'm sure that Pein could detect his own creations.



Actually we do know. When the jutsu is released, Kisame does not know what is going with Itachi's clone and Itachi informs him. So your argument was WRONG!!!!!!


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## Jinnobi (Jun 22, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> OK, let's review your arguments.
> 
> 1. Fighting with a purpose means you are not fighting casually whether or not you have killing intent
> 2. Is this your argument?
> ...



No, all fights have a purpose. I'm saying it's the purpose that determines what is casual and what is not.





> He was in a pinch. He wanted to leave but could not since all his jutsu were not working. DUH!!!



He wasn't trying very hard to leave then. He just got sick of messing around and ended it quickly. It doesn't mean he's inferior to Kakashi or that he was hard-pressed by their power. If anything, he was desperate because of time. He didn't want a war being started.





> Kakashi was more than he could handle in base. He failed to land a hit. He resorted to his more powerful sharingan



See above.





> Actually we do know. When the jutsu is released, Kisame does not know what is going with Itachi's clone and Itachi informs him. So your argument was WRONG!!!!!!



Good point. But I still think Pein can track his clones.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> No, all fights have a purpose. I'm saying it's the purpose that determines what is casual and what is not.



Fine, let's play your game. What was Itachi's purpose the first time he fought Kakashi?



Jinnobi said:


> He wasn't trying very hard to leave then. He just got sick of messing around and ended it quickly. It doesn't mean he's inferior to Kakashi or that he was hard-pressed by their power. If anything, he was desperate because of time. He didn't want a war being started.



1. If you can paste a statement of mine implying that Itachi was inferior to Kakashi. I will apologize and leave you alone. Otherwise, please remember not to mention arguments that nobody is making
2. You said yourself that he was desperate because of time. That is what I said. He was in a pinch!!!!!



Jinnobi said:


> Good point. But I still think Pein can track his clones.



Any proof?


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## Jinnobi (Jun 22, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Fine, let's play your game. What was Itachi's purpose the first time he fought Kakashi?



He was passing through to warn Danzo not to mess with Sasuke. He HAD to make a scene in order to catch Danzo's attention - but he didn't want to start a war. He was trying to avoid war.



> 1. If you can paste a statement of mine implying that Itachi was inferior to Kakashi. I will apologize and leave you alone. Otherwise, please remember not to mention arguments that nobody is making



base Kakashi > base Itachi I saw someone say in this thread. Maybe not you but I get confused.




> 2. You said yourself that he was desperate because of time. That is what I said. He was in a pinch!!!!!



A pinch because of lack of time ≠Fa pinch because you're equal or weaker to your opponent(s)




> Any proof?



I don't answer petitions for proof. Try asking for evidence...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> base Kakashi > base Itachi I saw someone say in this thread. Maybe not you but I get confused.



That was me.


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> He was passing through to warn Danzo not to mess with Sasuke. He HAD to make a scene in order to catch Danzo's attention - but he didn't want to start a war. He was trying to avoid war.



1. You did not answer my question at all. I did not ask what was his purpose for going to Konoha. I asked his purpose for fighting Kakashi
2. Itachi already had talked to Danzou in Konoha so there was no reason to make a scene



Jinnobi said:


> base Kakashi > base Itachi I saw someone say in this thread. Maybe not you but I get confused.



You  need to reply AFTER reading the posts. Just making comments while you are confused makes you look bad. 



Jinnobi said:


> A pinch because of lack of time ≠Fa pinch because you're equal or weaker to your opponent(s)



1. So you are agreeing that he was in a pinch as I suggested. Thanks. Case closed.
2. Base Kakashi would ALWAYS defeat base Itachi though



Jinnobi said:


> I don't answer petitions for proof. Try asking for evidence...



I do not have time to play games. I will take this as proof positive that you do not have anything to back up your claim. Thanks.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 22, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> This is very true. Susano'o is underrated in terms of attack speed. Also consider that its sword has no specified limits of extension, as it's just a Kusanagi Blade with sealing properties.



It's linear. Any reason Katsuyu can't block it, or Rashomon gates, or Oral Creation Rebirth and Jiraiya's speed in general can't avoid it?

Susanoo is overrated


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 22, 2010)

And the speed of Susano'o, other than Sasuke's crossbow bolts in it, is the same as a speed of an ordinary sword, or the speed of a kunai.


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## Kisame (Jun 22, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And the speed of Susano'o, other than Sasuke's crossbow bolts in it, is the same as a speed of an ordinary sword, or the speed of a kunai.



oro Disagrees,he couldnt even realize he was hit until it went through him.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 22, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> oro Disagrees,he couldnt even realize he was hit until it went through him.


You do realize Orochimaru ignores ordinary stabs? Of course he wouldn't realize the stab from the Totsuka Sword, its a move that wouldn't kill him. He even MOCKED Itachi afterwards before the sealing began. THEN he realized he was in danger.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 22, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And the speed of Susano'o, other than Sasuke's crossbow bolts in it, is the same as a speed of an ordinary sword, or the speed of a kunai.



Downright wrong: Orochimaru was cockslashed at 300 km/h



> You do realize Orochimaru ignores ordinary stabs? Of course he wouldn't realize the stab from the Totsuka Sword, its a move that wouldn't kill him. He even MOCKED Itachi afterwards before the sealing began. THEN he realized he was in danger.



Not feeling any danger ≠ mental reaction speed. Whether or not he thought the attack was laughable, it still hit him faster than he could think.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 22, 2010)

Hitting someone prepared is harder than hitting someone relaxed and laughing I'm afraid. And if Oro knew anything was amiss, he'd have escaped with OCR


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## Bloo (Jun 22, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And the speed of Susano'o, other than Sasuke's crossbow bolts in it, is the same as a speed of an ordinary sword, or the speed of a kunai.


It got Orochimaru before he could finish a word.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Jun 22, 2010)

Oro was cut in between his statement and he couldnt react to the cut, he was speaking to itachi and looking at him so its not like he was blindsided, so i think its pretty obvious susano sword slash is fast, besides its the final form why wouldnt it be superior to the previous forms in all ways.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 22, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> OK, you need to keep context in mind. This is what the manga says:
> 
> 1. MS controls kyuubi
> 2. It does control bijuu through genjutsu the same way that Sasuke controlled Manda
> ...



What you are not getting here is they are all parts of the same creature. there is no quality that makes kyuubi any more vulnerable to MS genjutsu.

And if you have been reading the manga, you would know that it OFTEN uses misdirection to keep the reader from discovering further plots and plotholes. The databook is for information that cannot be elaborated apon in the manga, therefore it is a resourceful guide for extra information.

Databook _expands_ the idea, thus it holds the president in the matter.



> If MS genjutsu could not be broken Madara would have beaten shodai. The databook says that Madara used genjutsu on those who looked into his eyes carelessly. Shodai looked into his eyes and still beat him, that means MS genjutsu can be broken


Don't pretend that you know what happened during that fight. your hastily put together arguement is based on assumptions. Until further notice, that fight should not be referenced because we don't know the full details.



> FALSE. Itachi is a born Uchiha, yet he cannot use susano'o as long as Sasuke because of his lower chakra level.


this had nothing to do with my quote. It is a fact that kekkei genkai implantees are not as skillful with the kekkei genkai as the original heirs, due to their bodies not being completely compatible.

Itachi was just sick. that is why he couldn't use it as long, because jutsu correlate directly with physical and mental health.




> You are kidding, right? Bunshin would be repelled with deva's powers and disappear. The real Itachi would then be continnually bombarded by summons while preta sucks up susano'o


If itachi didn't have knowledge.
If he did, preta is the first one killed. and keep in mind tendou can only use shinra tensei once before he has to recharge it.



> 1. The rinnegan allows you to LEARN ninjutsu not to create ninjutsu
> [naruto=375]11[/naruto]


you can create any jutsu with it because you have all affinities.



> 2. Replication and copy are not one and the same, remember Sasuke vs. Lee. After copying Lee's movements, Sasuke was still unable to replicate them until he trained to achieve Lee's level speed



well, tell people if you are going to create your own definitions to words before you do, because as far as the english language goes, a replica and a copy are synonymous.

Still, you don't understand that the sharingan copies chakra movement perfectly. that is how jutsu are able to be cast. It is affinities that they cannot copy because they require a different nature of chakra. (which seems to be a genetic marker)

This means that jutsu that require extreme skill in an element may not be castable by an uchiha initially. chidori is an A-rank jutsu, that is why sasuke needed to train to gain a lightining affinity. because you need an affinity to cast A rank elemental releases.



> The Sharingan's true power, in addition to the threat posed by its insight... is its copying ability, that of making one's own any technique one sets eyes upon. Chakra, handseals... all the principles bringing the jutsu into existence will be recorded into the caster's memory in the blink of an eye, making its utilization possible. *Of course, the necessary volume of chakra and physical ability requirements must be met*, but should one find themselves in some kind of dire situation, the Uchiha blood will demonstrate its accumulated experience, and never will those who have inherited it know any limits
> 
> Sharingan does not copy chakra control. Remember the walking on trees training. Sasuke did not copy the chakra control of Sakura. Even after that training, she still had better chakra control than him regardless of his sharingan.


Did you read your own quote???

"Chakra, handseals... all the principles bringing the jutsu into existence will be recorded into the caster's memory in the blink of an eye, making its utilization possible. *Of course, the necessary volume of chakra and physical ability requirements must be met"

Volume means chakra amount. that and physical ability (affinity is a physical trait) are the ONLY limits to the sharingan's copy ability. When those are overcome, all jutsu are preformed FLAWLESSLY.

This means tsunade's "Gouwan" would be preformed without flaw. Just so you don't misunderstand me, because I think that is what is happening, I am not saying it copies the skill of using chakra, but it copies the specific movement of chakra required to preform a jutsu.

for example. sasuke sees tsunade use chakra scalpel. Now he can too. Even though he may or may not be good at controling chakra (the manga says he is perfect though), the sharingan does not use his aptitude to preform the jutsu, but the copied movement of the chakra.

I am not saying it copies skill with manipulating chakra on a whole, I am saying it perfectly analyzes and duplicates techniques.




			It takes no time to summon for a master like Pein or Jiraiya. They are extremely fast. Itachi cannot multi-target with his sharingan. If he could why did he not genjutsu the lot of Kakashi, Naruto, Chiyo and Saskura?????
		
Click to expand...

Don't play ignorant to the plot. Everything he did or didn't do was for a reason. It is a general power of the sharingan to multi-target genjutsu.





			1. Itachi cannot spam tsukuyomi 
2. Tsukuyomi is an ocular genjutsu and Pein's formation would not allow all realms to see Itachi's eyes (some realms are in front of others)
3. The other paths will not be standing there doing nothing
		
Click to expand...

Fine, he kills who he needs to, and uses susano'o to finish the rest off.




			Well, I am happy repeating grammatical mistakes that Kishi make. Kishi calls it a solution to genjutsu not an aid to fighting genjutsu


Tell me something I did not already know. You are a fanxxx
		
Click to expand...

Well, YOU said defense in the first place, so Your burden of proof collapsed your own arguement.

*


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## Senjuclan (Jun 22, 2010)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> What you are not getting here is they are all parts of the same creature. there is no quality that makes kyuubi any more vulnerable to MS genjutsu.



Listen, the tablets in the Uchiha hideout were written by eyewitness of the jyuubi events. Those eyewitness say that the MS controls kyuubi not the other bijuu. Furthermore, Sasuke with MS did not even attempt to control or supress hachibi even when his life was in danger. 



dark messiah verdandi said:


> And if you have been reading the manga, you would know that it OFTEN uses misdirection to keep the reader from discovering further plots and plotholes. The databook is for information that cannot be elaborated apon in the manga, therefore it is a resourceful guide for extra information.
> 
> Databook _expands_ the idea, thus it holds the president in the matter.



The manga is canon and the databook is a secondary source. The manga says it controls kyuubi. The databook says it controls bijuu not necessarily all bijuu. Logic dictates that if it controls all bijuu Sasuke would have used against Hachibi. Therefore one has to conclude that the databook does not mean to imply that it controls all bijuu



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Don't pretend that you know what happened during that fight. your hastily put together arguement is based on assumptions. Until further notice, that fight should not be referenced because we don't know the full details.



I do not pretend to know what happened during that fight. However, logic dictates that if someone uses MS genjutsu OFTEN and said person fights an opponent MULTIPLE TIMES that the MS wielder would have used MS at least once. Furthermore, this manga has shown us over 10 years that there is no such thing as a jutsu that cannot be broken



dark messiah verdandi said:


> this had nothing to do with my quote. It is a fact that kekkei genkai implantees are not as skillful with the kekkei genkai as the original heirs, due to their bodies not being completely compatible.
> 
> Itachi was just sick. that is why he couldn't use it as long, because jutsu correlate directly with physical and mental health.



You fail to follow through with your own logic. KKGK implantees arer not able to use the full power of the KKGK because of the strain it puts on their bodies. This is no different from a natural heir of the KKGK who does not have the necessary chakra level to sustain the jutsu and is drained. To control the kyuubi requires a high level of power as Gerotora mentioned to Jiraiya. Not all Uchiha have that level of power regardless of their MS eyes



dark messiah verdandi said:


> If itachi didn't have knowledge.
> If he did, preta is the first one killed. and keep in mind tendou can only use shinra tensei once before he has to recharge it.



Having knowledge does not guarantee you a win. Itachi's jutsu are all useless against Pein. Regardless of the 5 seconds cool down on Preta, Pein has the advantage because of his numbers



dark messiah verdandi said:


> you can create any jutsu with it because you have all affinities.



Care to base this on the author's words. You are simply spewing nonsense now



dark messiah verdandi said:


> well, tell people if you are going to create your own definitions to words before you do, because as far as the english language goes, a replica and a copy are synonymous.



I am not sure what English language you speak but let's look at the dictionary.

rep?li?cate (rpl-kt)
v. rep?li?cat?ed, rep?li?cat?ing, rep?li?cates 
v.tr.
1. To duplicate, copy, reproduce, or repeat.
2. Biology To reproduce or make an exact copy or copies of (genetic material, a cell, or an organism).
3. To fold over or bend back.

If the sharingan copies a jutsu but cannot reproduce it, it has not replicated it. Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu but he could not replicate it until he trained more



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Still, you don't understand that the sharingan copies chakra movement perfectly. that is how jutsu are able to be cast. It is affinities that they cannot copy because they require a different nature of chakra. (which seems to be a genetic marker)
> 
> This means that jutsu that require extreme skill in an element may not be castable by an uchiha initially. chidori is an A-rank jutsu, that is why sasuke needed to train to gain a lightining affinity. because you need an affinity to cast A rank elemental releases.



1. First of all you are simply wrong, you do not need an affinity to cast an A level elemental jutsu. That is nonsense you made up
2. The sharingan does not copy chakra control!!!!! Sasuke did not copy chakra control to walk on trees. He had the sharingan, why did he waste time?????




dark messiah verdandi said:


> Volume means chakra amount. that and physical ability (affinity is a physical trait) are the ONLY limits to the sharingan's copy ability. When those are overcome, all jutsu are preformed FLAWLESSLY.



Bullshit. I read my own quote. I gave you that quote to support my contention that the sharingan is limited in its ability to replicate (the word you do  not seem to understand) jutsu. The manga has shown us that the sharingan cannot replicate chakra control since Sasuke had to ask for advice and was still unable to walk on trees as well as Sakura did.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> This means tsunade's "Gouwan" would be preformed without flaw. Just so you don't misunderstand me, because I think that is what is happening, I am not saying it copies the skill of using chakra, but it copies the specific movement of chakra required to preform a jutsu.



It does not matter what it COPIES!!!!! It matters whether or not it can REPLICATE the jutsu (refer to the definition of the word since you do not seem to understand it)



dark messiah verdandi said:


> for example. sasuke sees tsunade use chakra scalpel. Now he can too. Even though he may or may not be good at controling chakra (the manga says he is perfect though), the sharingan does not use his aptitude to preform the jutsu, but the copied movement of the chakra.



Bullshit. If Sasuke saw her performing a high level medical ninjutsu that requires excellent chakra control, he would KNOW how to perform the jutsu BUT he still would be unable to perform it unless he had the same level of chakra control. Refer to the walking on tree training



dark messiah verdandi said:


> I am not saying it copies skill with manipulating chakra on a whole, I am saying it perfectly analyzes and duplicates techniques.



You seem to not know what the word duplicate means. To duplicate is to MAKE a copy. The sharingan allows you to make a mental copy (akin to taking a picture of a sculpture at a museum). However to duplicate you would have to reproduce the jutsu (you would have to make a sculpture of your own)



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Don't play ignorant to the plot. Everything he did or didn't do was for a reason. It is a general power of the sharingan to multi-target genjutsu.



1. The plot is the ultimate limitation of a jutsu
2. The sharigan is bad at multi-target genjutsu because the author says so in the manga and the databook



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Fine, he kills who he needs to, and uses susano'o to finish the rest off.



And they are just standing there waiting to be killed, right? Look, arguing with you is starting to sound like a waste of time. Telling me that he will finish them off without taking into accout their power is proof of this




dark messiah verdandi said:


> Well, YOU said defense in the first place, so Your burden of proof collapsed your own arguement.



What is a defense????? A defense is a means of protecting oneself, right? If you are using a tool (a summon) to protect yourself against genjutsu. That tool is your defense.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 22, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Listen, the tablets in the Uchiha hideout were written by eyewitness of the jyuubi events. Those eyewitness say that the MS controls kyuubi not the other bijuu. Furthermore, Sasuke with MS did not even attempt to control or supress hachibi even when his life was in danger.


But we also know that the juubi was split AFTER the first UCHIHA was born, and even grown, so it would make no sense that it only happens to be able to control one of them with a general method of control. Uchihas simply use genjutsu to control magical creatures, and the mangekyou allows them to do so without a chance of them breaking loose.

sure the manga went through lengths to set up this mysterious connection, but we ended up finding out it was all through chance. there is only one connection to the uchiha and the kyuubi. That is it was the ONLY bijuu that was ever taimed by an uchiha since they have only known about the mangekyou for 90+ years, and madara was in possession of the kyuubi for many of them.

The rest were with hashirama, or in completely different countries. this is common sense here, and if you can't use common sense, why are you in the battledome?



> The manga is canon and the databook is a secondary source. The manga says it controls kyuubi. The databook says it controls bijuu not necessarily all bijuu. Logic dictates that if it controls all bijuu Sasuke would have used against Hachibi. Therefore one has to conclude that the databook does not mean to imply that it controls all bijuu



Logic also dictates that stopping killerbee would have been the logical solution. If he would have stopped the hachibi, it would have done nothing since, bee can still break the hachibi out of genjutsu AND, killer bee would have still been mobile. chalk it up to inexperience. It was a showcasing for jinchuuriki abilities. they are partners, so when jinchuuriki have control over their bijuu, even MS genjutsu are nullified.

The databook is also cannon. It is only when there is contradictions that make no sense do you trust the manga moreso than the databook, but this case does not even need to be resolved that way. Ocular genjutsu effects anyone with eyes, no matter for how long.




> I do not pretend to know what happened during that fight. However, logic dictates that if someone uses MS genjutsu OFTEN and said person fights an opponent MULTIPLE TIMES that the MS wielder would have used MS at least once. Furthermore, this manga has shown us over 10 years that there is no such thing as a jutsu that cannot be broken



Well, who said he used genjutsu? he could have very well used kamui, susano'o and ameterasu for the whole fight. Unless you see someone ACTIVELY breaking an MS genjutsu, it's generally unbreakable to a lone individual.




> You fail to follow through with your own logic. KKGK implantees arer not able to use the full power of the KKGK because of the strain it puts on their bodies. This is no different from a natural heir of the KKGK who does not have the necessary chakra level to sustain the jutsu and is drained. To control the kyuubi requires a high level of power as Gerotora mentioned to Jiraiya. Not all Uchiha have that level of power regardless of their MS eyes



Actually, itachi was an anomaly amongst uchiha, since ALL of them had outstanding chakras. It is very hard to use sasuke as measurement since he had the CS2 to upgrade his chakra, and he isn't an adult yet. after puberty, the male body would be in its prime, so what may have seemed low is because he hasn't even finished growing yet.

Control of the kyuubi through genjutsu would cost the same amount as tsukuyomi, or actually less since it is a less demanding task. Not to mention, it doesn't constantly drain chakra. One casting is all that is needed and it is permanently under the control of the binder, until it is forcibly sealed by another means.

MS genjutsu is basically lelouche's geass + more



> Having knowledge does not guarantee you a win. Itachi's jutsu are all useless against Pein. Regardless of the 5 seconds cool down on Preta, Pein has the advantage because of his numbers



You underrate true tactical planning. We have only seen itachi with a lethal plan once, and he killed all of his family when he did it. If itachi really plans how to take down pain, if he had full knowledge, it would be only moderately difficult.




> Care to base this on the author's words. You are simply spewing nonsense now


chakra + seals = jutsu. If you have the affinity towards ALL jutsu, then all you need is seals and you are done. seals are simply using your hands to guide your chakra manipulations.

nonsense? not really.




> I am not sure what English language you speak but let's look at the dictionary.
> 
> replicate (rpl-kt)
> v. replicated, replicating, replicates
> ...


just stop it... THAT IS WHAT I SAID.



> If the sharingan copies a jutsu but cannot reproduce it, it has not replicated it. Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu but he could not replicate it until he trained more
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And name one A rank elemental that HAS NOT been casted by someone without an affinity?

He didn't KNOW he had the sharingan 
Not once did he activate it until he faught haku.






> Bullshit. I read my own quote. I gave you that quote to support my contention that the sharingan is limited in its ability to replicate (the word you do  not seem to understand) jutsu. The manga has shown us that the sharingan cannot replicate chakra control since Sasuke had to ask for advice and was still unable to walk on trees as well as Sakura did.


Sasuke was unaware of his own ability to manifest the sharingan.

You need to say PERFORM rather than replicate, since it is a synonym for copy. there is mental replication, and physical replication. the sharingan cannot PERFORM a jutsu that it has copied until the user has the chakra amount needed or the physical aptitude.

how do you THINK the sharingan copies ninpou? it copies the hand seals, and the chakra movement. since the chakra movement is copied, it simply *REPLICATES* the movement seen to perform it.




> It does not matter what it COPIES!!!!! It matters whether or not it can REPLICATE the jutsu (refer to the definition of the word since you do not seem to understand it)
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. If Sasuke saw her performing a high level medical ninjutsu that requires excellent chakra control, he would KNOW how to perform the jutsu BUT he still would be unable to perform it unless he had the same level of chakra control. Refer to the walking on tree training


I have talked about this 

You seem to not know what the word duplicate means. To duplicate is to MAKE a copy. The sharingan allows you to make a mental copy (akin to taking a picture of a sculpture at a museum). However to duplicate you would have to reproduce the jutsu (you would have to make a sculpture of your own)




> 1. The plot is the ultimate limitation of a jutsu
> 2. The sharigan is bad at multi-target genjutsu because the author says so in the manga and the databook
> 
> 
> ...


 editing....


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