# Don Chinjao vs. Demon Bamboo Vergo



## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

Couldn't wait. How does this go?


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## Goomoonryong (Aug 3, 2013)

Really want to say Chnjao but can't be certain.


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## trance (Aug 3, 2013)

*Sigh*

If Chinjao is going to be portrayed as on par with Luffy, I'm going with Chinjao since I believe that Luffy can beat Vergo high difficulty...


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

Leaning towards Don.

Depends on how his fighting style interacts with Vergos haki defense.


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## Sentomaru (Aug 3, 2013)

*Vergo*
Armament Haki (one of the strongest we've seen so far)
Rokushiki
Bamboo
Vice Admiral, former head of G-5

*Don Chinjao*
Armament Haki
Conqueror's Haki
Hasshoken
Legendary head butts
Bounty in the 500,000,000 range (retired)
Former opponent of Monkey D. Garp
Legend status



Definitely a good match-up. fighting style wise. I believe Don Chinjao would take it, but I'm undecided on the difficulty. Vergo should be somewhat close to Diamante and Tr?bol since he was basically Doflamingo's 5th "secret suit guy", the overseer of the Punk Hazard business in charge of his own corrupted Marine base and all.

I think it's likely that Chinjao is stronger than Diamante, but Diamante will still be a harder opponent because a) Luffy is worn down a bit from his previous fights and b) he has a really hax ability like let's say a speed furit allowing him to move at extreme speeds. 

Anyway, I think an armament-hardened head butt from a blood lusted Chinjao is something even full-body armament Vergo wouldn't want to tank. Trust me.


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## Kanki (Aug 3, 2013)

In his prime, Don Chinjao. I think Vergo's probably stronger now though. Baseless claim, but still...



Trance said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> *If Chinjao is going to be portrayed as on par with Luffy*, I'm going with Chinjao since I believe that Luffy can beat Vergo high difficulty...



Really?

In all likelihood, Luffy will end up fighting stronger opponents after every round - so  he'll face 3 stronger opponents before he even gets to Doflamingo, IMO.


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## The Undying (Aug 3, 2013)

Don fucking Chinjao.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

How would Hakkoushou work on a humans person body, just attack the insides I assume?


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## trance (Aug 3, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Really?
> 
> In all likelihood, Luffy will end up fighting stronger opponents after every round - so  he'll face 3 stronger opponents before he even gets to Doflamingo, IMO.



Progression, bro. It's been proven Luffy can grow several times stronger in a single arc...so, he and Chinjao could be on par now but by the end of the arc, Luffy will likely be a good bit stronger

Also, I said "if".


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

True, the SHs do get stronger every arc.


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## Sayonara (Aug 3, 2013)

It would be a fucking good fight but Don been in bigger fights.


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## Slenderman (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm going to say Chinjao.


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## Impact (Aug 3, 2013)

I wonder what haki Don specialize in 

I'll say Don for now simply because of what he shown so far which is more impressive then Vergo has shown.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

^Think its safe to say CoA.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

I would say Don specializes in CoA. Cause it would inhance his Hasshoken, and physical strength.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

But given what Oda just revealed who the hell knows.

I would say CoA or Cotc but hell might be CoO.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

It would be a crazy slugfest. One wants to think that Vergo is faster and more mobile, but at the same time I'm certain that size and stature is no bar to his speed for a pirate of Chinjao's caliber. Since Chinjao's punch equally matched Luffy's without G2, it seems Vergo has him beat as far as physical power output goes when he applies his elite CoA and his staff against Chinjao's hand and foot(?)work. Chinjao's headbutts is what Vergo really needs to look out for as I'm sure they'd break right through his defenses and they might be as bad as taking a direct hit from a Gear Third attack. Direct hits to the head which are otherwise optimal would be unusually ineffective against his monster skull, hurting Vergo's offense a bit. Chinjao on the other hand utilizes a form of martial art that ignores armor, which may or may not also diminish the effects of Haki, spelling bad news for someone whose no. 1 strength is his CoA.

It feels most fair to side with Chinjao but I don't feel entirely confident about it. It's hard to be sure how strong the old man is really supposed to be at this point. It may turn out he lost a tremendous amount of power to his age just like Ricky/Kyros or may suffer from stamina issues. And are we meant to see him as greater than Sanji, which Vergo appeared to be although it wasn't 100%? I'm not sure about that either. There's a lot of people being introduced right now and I want to be wary of underestimating how powerful Sanji may be when he's fully unleashed by being too quick to say he's weaker than this and that guy. Nonetheless for the time being, Chinjao gets my benefit of the doubt.


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## Impact (Aug 3, 2013)

Also leaning towards CoA until we see more of him.

Edit: ^ Wasn't there one part in the chapter that says Don was in perfect shape?

It'll be kinda disappointing if oda give an excuse later about how Don was performing at his best aleast not having someone just saying he was in Perfect shape during the fight.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

That was just the announcer.


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## Hypemaster (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm going with Don Chinjao


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## Kanki (Aug 3, 2013)

Trance said:


> Progression, bro. It's been proven Luffy can grow several times stronger in a single arc...so, he and Chinjao could be on par now but by the end of the arc, Luffy will likely be a good bit stronger
> 
> Also, I said "if".



But that would mean Luffy would have to make effectively 4 jumps in power within an arc...when has he ever shown that before? It also suggests that Cavendish, Diamante and Bart are currently stronger than Luffy which I find unlikely. 

It'd be horrible if Luffy has to improve and surpass Don Chinjao, Cavendish, Diamante and then Doflamingo in back to back fights, during the same arc - that's Bleach-esque. 

You could be right I guess, but I can't see it.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

I think Diamante, Luffy, and Jesus are the only ones stronger then Don Chinjao. With Jesus being a Wild Card. Yes i can see him being weaker then Don god forbid, but for now he does get my benefit of the doubt. Either way its not by much i don't think. As in Diamante and jesus would have high diff with Don. (Just to be clear i can see Diamante being weaker then Don, just that the very thought of it feels really strange)

And honestly i have doubts that luffy will even fight jesus. I think the tournament will end before they get to fight.


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

Going with Vergo here, under the assumption that Chinjao is not going to push Luffy to his limit.

Considering how many more incredible opponents Luffy has in front of him, I'd be surprised if we even see G3 in his fight with Chin. I predict he wins Block C before the public knows he's Strawhat Luffy.

Just like Rayleigh, and all the other old-timers, what they could do twenty years ago versus what they can do now is a huge gap. *And Chinjao is no Rayleigh.*

Considering what we know of abilities, I have a hard time believing Chinjao's beating Bart.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

^Chinjao can use Hardening Haki and his fighting style might also be able to bypass his Barrier fruit with the shock waves and what not. Bart is a Rookie who has shown no strong haki skills, so Chinjao gets the benefit of the doubt in Haki usage, so he should be able to bypass his barrier. 

Although if he can't then yea he loses, as i doubt he is going to blitz Bart or anything. 

I think he should get the benefit of the doubt over Bart for the time being. Lets see how he does agasint Luffy.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

> But that would mean Luffy would have to make effectively 4 jumps in power within an arc.



That's not going to happen. Not a chance. We are still at the "what can the Straw Hats really do?" stage since the timeskip. Oda even explicitly nodded to it on Punk Hazard through Tashigi's comments on Zoro ("You can beat an enemy like this? Just how strong have they become!?"). We're still waiting for them to even have actual fights against worthy opponents. What we see Luffy do in this arc _will all be the culmination of his training_, yet to be fully unveiled. Oda has been slowly (slooowly...) building up to the moments where he finally lets all the Straw Hats loose. We're not going to see power-ups, we're going to see the power they acquired through their training.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

^Agreed 2000 Percent.


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## The Undying (Aug 3, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> That's not going to happen. Not a chance. We are still at the "what can the Straw Hats really do?" stage since the timeskip. Oda even explicitly nodded to it on Punk Hazard through Tashigi's comments on Zoro ("You can beat an enemy like this? Just how strong have they become!?"). We're still waiting for them to even have actual fights against worthy opponents. What we see Luffy do in this arc _will all be the culmination of his training_, yet to be fully unveiled. Oda has been slowly (slooowly...) building up to the moments where he finally lets all the Straw Hats loose. We're not going to see power-ups, we're going to see the power they acquired through their training.




This, absolutely.

Even pre-skip, I didn't get the impression that Luffy grew _that_ much stronger from arc to arc, with the exception of cases where he learned how to apply his Devil Fruit in a way that he could bestow himself with temporary power increases (such as the Gears). It seemed to me like a naturally slower and more gradual growth rate overall.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

Yes, what Luffy did in pretty much every arc pre-skip was just get serious and actually use the power already within him. This series doesn't have wild power jumps like that. Enies Lobby treaded dangerous grounds but ultimately it worked out and had an in-universe explanation that was intended from the start. That arc had power-ups but they were very obviously that because we had seen the MCs use all their power before without using them. The only "power-ups" we will see here is what they learned over the timeskip.


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ^Chinjao can use Hardening Haki and his fighting style might also be able to bypass his Barrier fruit with the shock waves and what not. Bart is a Rookie who has shown no strong haki skills, so Chinjao gets the benefit of the doubt in Haki usage, so he should be able to bypass his barrier.
> 
> Although if he can't then yea he loses, as i doubt he is going to blitz Bart or anything.
> 
> I think he should get the benefit of the doubt over Bart for the time being. Lets see how he does agasint Luffy.



Having haki doesn't bypass your opponent's abilities. That's why Teach's darkness fruit was so special. It allows you to lay hands on logias as if they were paramecia, but it doesn't stop any of their abilities from happening.

We're not even entirely sure how Bart's shield works yet. For all we know, Chinjao could power up a hardened haki headbutt, and all it would do is reflect more damage back at him. We just don't know.

Need more info.

And yeah, absolutely- we still have no fuckin clue how strong the Strawhats truly are.


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## trance (Aug 3, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> But that would mean Luffy would have to make effectively 4 jumps in power within an arc...when has he ever shown that before? It also suggests that Cavendish, Diamante and Bart are currently stronger than Luffy which I find unlikely.
> 
> It'd be horrible if Luffy has to improve and surpass Don Chinjao, Cavendish, Diamante and then Doflamingo in back to back fights, during the same arc - that's Bleach-esque.
> 
> You could be right I guess, but I can't see it.



I think Luffy is already stronger than Chinjao and Cavendish and is on par with Diamante (perhaps slightly ahead). So, he only has to improve to surpass DD...

I don't think he'll fight Cavendish as I think Rebecca will win block D (not ncessarily by being superior but maybe by luck) and Diamante might get called away to do something...

Those are just theories of mine...


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## Halcyon (Aug 3, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> That's not going to happen. Not a chance. We are still at the "what can the Straw Hats really do?" stage since the timeskip. Oda even explicitly nodded to it on Punk Hazard through Tashigi's comments on Zoro ("You can beat an enemy like this? Just how strong have they become!?"). We're still waiting for them to even have actual fights against worthy opponents. What we see Luffy do in this arc _will all be the culmination of his training_, yet to be fully unveiled. Oda has been slowly (slooowly...) building up to the moments where he finally lets all the Straw Hats loose. We're not going to see power-ups, we're going to see the power they acquired through their training.


Just having you say it like that hypes me up even more. I am seriously too stoked to see what the M3 can do.


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

I actually think the Chinjao v Luffy match is going to disappoint a lot of folks here, because I doubt "this" is the time we see Luffy's upper limit.

This arc though, for sure.

I'm gonna give an unpopular opinion and say we see him go all-out for the first time to defeat Diamante, and _still_ can't fight Doffy alone.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

^. Actually i am pretty sure thats not a unpopular opnion. Most people think that im pretty sure, at least those that are of the opnion that luffy will fight Diamante to the end this arc. Which includes me.

i think Luffy might win the way Corus says, he will knock him out of the ring. That does not mean Don can't give him a hell of a fight or anything, but it makes it so luffy does not have to push him self really hard to beat Don.



Law said:


> Having haki doesn't bypass your opponent's abilities. That's why Teach's darkness fruit was so special. It allows you to lay hands on logias as if they were paramecia, but it doesn't stop any of their abilities from happening.
> 
> We're not even entirely sure how Bart's shield works yet. For all we know, Chinjao could power up a hardened haki headbutt, and all it would do is reflect more damage back at him. We just don't know.
> 
> ...



Well if Haki can't bypass his shield then what can lol. I would prefer to think bart does not have a god skill that can reflect anything. 

Either Don can bypass it or just smash through it. Although you are right we don't know the exact way his barrier works, but i think Haki and super high strength both of which Don has should do the trick.Not to mention Don has been portrayed better then him so far at least to me he has.

But as i said if he can't deal with the barrier then yep he loses, as i don't think Don is fast enough to blitz bart. 

As i said before i only see Diamante, jesus, and luffy being stronger at the moment. With Bart and Cavendish being a decent possibility.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

I'll be happy with 3 options.

Luffy slaughters Don Chinjao
Luffy beats Don Chinjao mid diff, Don commenting on how much power Luffy has.
Luffy high diffs Don, but Diamente or Jesus Burgess comment on how Luffy will ne a threat to Flamingo.

Either way, unless Luffy fucks up majorly, he's going to look good.


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## Coruscation (Aug 3, 2013)

I don't think many people think Luffy vs. Chinjao will bring Luffy to his limits. It's a match in a tournament setting where falling off the arena equals losing and it happens way early in the arc.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

4 theories involving Doflamingo this arc which are very popular right now.

Law beats Doflamingo after losing the first time.
Luffy beats Doflamingo
Law and Luffy beat Doflamingo
Doflamingo doesn't go down this arc.


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## trance (Aug 3, 2013)

Some people still think DD can solo the M3 or even the entire SH crew...


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## Tiger (Aug 3, 2013)

Trance said:


> Some people still think DD can solo the M3 or even the entire SH crew...



Your point being? Don't say it like that, it just sets you up to look stupid if it happens.

If Luffy could take on Doffy by himself, I'd be _shocked_.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 3, 2013)

Trance said:


> Some people still think DD can solo the M3 or even the entire SH crew...



Actually its possible.

Due to DD hax. We know he can controll 2 people at once, possibly even more, and he can one shot anyone under the M3 besides maybe Franky in his General Shogun.

That being said i don't think DD can take out the entire Straw-hat crew.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 3, 2013)

Well, I think option number one will happen.

Truth be told we don't know how strong any of these characters are.


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## Shanks (Aug 4, 2013)

Chinjao rapes with mid difficulties


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## B Rabbit (Aug 4, 2013)

You can't rape with mid difficulties.


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## SsjAzn (Aug 4, 2013)

I would give Vergo the edge, but it's definite that Chinjao can give the latter a heck of a fight, since the old man can trade fits with Luffy with his freaking head.


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## trance (Aug 4, 2013)

Law said:


> Your point being? Don't say it like that, it just sets you up to look stupid if it happens.
> 
> If Luffy could take on Doffy by himself, I'd be _shocked_.



I don't think Luffy can solo DD either but I don't see DD soloing the M3...

3 combatants of that caliber is a very fearsome force...especially since they are all strong high tiers...


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## Tiger (Aug 4, 2013)

Trance said:


> I don't think Luffy can solo DD either but I don't see DD soloing the M3...
> 
> 3 combatants of that caliber is a very fearsome force...especially since they are all strong high tiers...



Them being high-tiers doesn't necessarily mean they can beat Doflamingo. I'm not saying they can't, but there's nothing to suggest it's "ridiculous" as your post implied that he could defeat them.

What if Doffy put strings on Zoro and Sanji and forced Luffy to fight them? Not letting Luffy get to him without going through his nakama?

Depending on what Oda wants, it could easily be the entire crew's most harrowing fight to date. Jozu wasn't strong enough to resist being controlled, I only give Luffy the benefit of the doubt due to CoC. But Zoro and Sanji being controlled could spell absolute chaos for the entire crew.

I'm not even saying that's going to happen or could, but my problem with you was you implying it was ridiculous that he could defeat the M3, which it is not.


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## Impact (Aug 4, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> Chinjao rapes with mid difficulties





Eminem said:


> You can't rape with mid difficulties.



Aye Sparkling take notes 

And why did this discussion turn into luffy vs Don?


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## Tiger (Aug 4, 2013)

♦Sir Crocodile♦ said:


> A Sparkling take notes
> 
> And why did this discussion turn into luffy vs Don?



Power-scaling


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## TrolonoaZoro (Aug 4, 2013)

Vergo clearly takes this, Don is being set up as a minor inconvenience while Vergo had the utmost respect from everyone during Punk Hazard. 
My prediction is that Don will be taken care of with Mid difficulty from Luffy as the fact that he's an old man that's no where close his prime is made clear. *And his prime is not one of epic proportion so he should really be affected by this*


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## B Rabbit (Aug 4, 2013)

I don't see how Vergo wins. His fights had all three holding back. Cept Law ofcourse.


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2013)

Really too soon to decide on this one.


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 4, 2013)

For me: Vergo >= Law = Luffy >= Zoro >= Sanji = Don Chinjao. 

But as we know, experience might work very well in a fight even against stronger people. 

However, Vergo take this with very high difficulty.


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## Thebest1 (Aug 4, 2013)

^But Vergo lost to Law, how is he stronger?


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## Shinthia (Aug 4, 2013)

Don got this


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## Tiger (Aug 4, 2013)

Thebest1 said:


> ^But Vergo lost to Law, how is he stronger?



Hax advantage. But that's why he's ">=" Greater than or equal to.

Vergo beats Chinjao.


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## Sergeant Sodge (Aug 4, 2013)

Considering how tough Chinjao's head is, he could probably win if he corners Vergo. I doubt Vergo's Haki would hold up against something that Luffy's Jet Pistol couldn't damage. If Chinjao can't get in a position for some good headbutt spamming, then it's debatable considering we haven't seen much of his reflexes yet. Considering he's clashed equally with Luffy's Busoshoku punch, which in cases such as his fight with CC was about as potent, if not moreso, than his Jet Pistol, I'd probably still give this to Chinjao.



Eminem said:


> I don't see how Vergo wins. His fights had all three holding back. Cept Law ofcourse.


May have missed something when reading through the Punk Hazard Arc, but how exactly were Sanji and Smoker holding back when Sanji got his leg fractured on impact with Vergo's kick and Smoker almost lost conciousness?


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## Tiger (Aug 4, 2013)

I very much doubt one of Luffy's random Jet Pistols is going to even scuff Vergo's hardened body.

This is another example of a past character being shit on in favor of a new one.

Next month we'll know for sure who would win, I'd imagine. But unless Chinjao pushes Luffy to his limit, I don't see him beating Vergo.


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## Tiger (Aug 4, 2013)

Sergeant Sodge said:


> May have missed something when reading through the Punk Hazard Arc, but how exactly were Sanji and Smoker holding back when Sanji got his leg fractured on impact with Vergo's kick and Smoker almost lost conciousness?



Past/beaten character underestimation/selective memory.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 4, 2013)

Seems some people don't know the difference from holding back, and not going all out.


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2013)

To clarify about Smoker v. Vergo, Smoker was either trying to obtain Law's heart or provide an opening for Law to do so. Smoker and Vergo were fighting evenly for the entirety of their match. It then cuts to Smoker increasing the size of his smoke body and charging in recklessly only to get hit by Vergo's Haki hardened staff. He takes severe damage, but I think saying he lost consciousness would be an exaggeration (his eyes were closed in one panel). Law has his heart back. That's the play-by-play from my perspective. It isn't a giant reach for me to believe that Smoker's reckless charge in full smoke form (that Vergo verbally commented on the sudden stupidity of) was what provided the opening to steal Law's heart back. The blow that Vergo used to take out Smoker was likely hardened, meaning it was a demonstration comparable to what he could do physically with full body hardening. Essentially, I'm saying that they were evenly matched, and Vergo only "defeated" him because he went for the heart.

At their Punk Hazard level, I believe Luffy, Vergo, and Smoker to have razor thin gaps between them with Law standing above them.


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## Purple Tiger (Aug 5, 2013)

Don Chinjoa wins simply because he's got cOc.


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## trance (Aug 5, 2013)

Purple Tiger said:


> Don Chinjoa wins simply *because he's got cOc.*



Come again?


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## tupadre97 (Aug 5, 2013)

We don't know how strong chinjao but i'd still give it to him


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## Tiger (Aug 5, 2013)

Trance said:


> Come again?



Are you confused about why he wins simply because he _has_ CoC, or because you didn't know he _had it_ to begin with?


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## trance (Aug 5, 2013)

Law said:


> Are you confused about why he wins simply because he _has_ CoC, or because you didn't know he _had it_ to begin with?



The former.


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## Green Monkey (Aug 5, 2013)

I personally don't think Don is going to give Luffy as hard of a fight as Vergo would. Im guessing Chinjaos big weakness is his lack of Stamina, and  I think a fight between him and Vergo would basically come down to that. Vergo extreme diff .


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## B Rabbit (Mar 7, 2014)

curious on opinions now.


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## monkey d ace (Mar 7, 2014)

flat headed chingao? vergo definitely. luffy beat him mid diff, which put him =<sanji, and vergo is stronger than sanji.
cone headed chingao? now this could go either way.


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 7, 2014)

^ Luffy technically didn't beat him. His Elephant Gun had enough power to clash with Chinjao's strongest attack and send him into the water (an impressive enough feat in itself) which is all he needed to win the match.

Now in regards to this fight, Pointy-Head Chinjao should be able to beat Vergo.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 7, 2014)

Flat head, Vergo wins. Drill head, either way. Screw it, Vergo takes both.


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## monkey d ace (Mar 7, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> ^ Luffy technically didn't beat him. His Elephant Gun had enough power to clash with Chinjao's strongest attack and send him into the water (an impressive enough feat in itself) which is all he needed to win the match.
> 
> Now in regards to this fight, Pointy-Head Chinjao should be able to beat Vergo.


chingao was unconscious when he fell in the water, so luffy actually defeated him.


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 7, 2014)

I don't think he was unconscious. Right after the match was over, he even went to go talk with Luffy.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 7, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> I don't think he was unconscious. Right after the match was over, he even went to go talk with Luffy.



*Spoiler*: __ 







No, DCJ was out like a rock after Luffy bashed his head back to normal. It was only after the match that he regained consciousness.


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## Quuon (Mar 7, 2014)

He got knocked out, Kings Disposition.

On the topic of this match Pointy Head Chinjao definitely takes this.

Flat head Chinjao vs Vergo could go either way.


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 7, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The only thing in those scans that would suggest he's unconscious is his eyes without pupils and that's not enough to say he's K.O'd since we see characters without pupils get right back up (after taking a heavy hit) all the time. 

If Don Chinjao was really knocked out, we wouldn't be seeing him up and about literally right after the match ended.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Mar 8, 2014)

I'd say Vergo wins.

Don C matched gearless Luffy equally, but once Luffy packed out the big guns, aka G3, Chinjao was done for very quickly. I think base Vergo would be equal to or slightly below Chinjao, but Vergo has a full body haki mode which we havent seen any limits to, but just by my opinion, i think he would be a lot stronger in this form which would allow him to beat chinjao.


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## Dellinger (Mar 8, 2014)

If he wasn't unconscious he wouldn't be sinking pretty simple.

Plus he couldn't even move on his own after he woke up.


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## tanman (Mar 8, 2014)

Vergo obviously takes normal Chinjao. Chinjao can't tag him, and he can hit just as hard as Luffy. It ends basically the same way.

And he takes pointy headed Chinjao too unless we see a lot more.


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## Dellinger (Mar 8, 2014)

Chinjao had no problems keeping up with base Luffy.

Unless Vergo is a good deal faster than Luffy (Which he sure as hell isn't)then Chinjao will keep up with him just fine.


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## Ryuksgelus (Mar 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> Vergo obviously takes normal Chinjao. Chinjao can't tag him, and he can hit just as hard as Luffy. It ends basically the same way.
> 
> And he takes pointy headed Chinjao too unless we see a lot more.



How is it obvious? He only lost so quickly because he kamikaze'd into Luffy's fist.

Guy took a Hawk Rifle just fine. I don't see Vergo having anything stronger than a G2 Hardened Rifle.


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## B Rabbit (Mar 8, 2014)

I thought Hawk rifle made him bleed


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 8, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> If he wasn't unconscious he wouldn't be sinking pretty simple.
> 
> Plus he couldn't even move on his own after he woke up.


Getting the wind knocked out of you =/= unconscious 

Being in bad shape after taking a heavy hit =/= unconscious 

Both things happened to Lucci (he got the wind knocked of him for a bit on the marine ship and his legs were badly damaged) after taking a G3 hit, yet he stands back up afterwards and was more than capable of fighting Luffy for the remainder of the fight.


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## Lmao (Mar 8, 2014)

Chinjao was trembling and could barely stand on his own after the match, he lost consciousness (even if temporarily) after Thor Elephant Gun.


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 8, 2014)

Literally on the bottom of that page (a portion that you decided to cut out) we see him standing and moving on his own:


and here (on top): 


Christ its not like he ended up barely awake on a stretcher where he couldn't even stand at all. He got the wind knocked out of him for a bit (just like Lucci did) by a powerful attack and that's not enough to say he was unconscious.


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## Lmao (Mar 8, 2014)

I love how you're using Lucci to support your argument here:



This is Lucci _defending _himself with Tekkai and he still almost completely lost consciousness. Are you really trying to convince us an attack that *reshaped *Chinjao's head didn't even cause temporary loss of consciousness? Please stop.


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 8, 2014)

Lmao said:


> I love how you're using Lucci to support your argument here:
> 
> 
> 
> This is Lucci _defending _himself with Tekkai and he still almost completely lost consciousness. Are you really trying to convince us an attack that *reshaped *Chinjao's head didn't even cause temporary loss of consciousness? Please stop.


Right....let's just completely forget the fact that Lucci stood up _shortly after_ "completely losing consciousness" to finish his fight with Luffy. (Hint: he wasn't completely rendered unconscious)

In addition, what's most notable about Luffy's EG was that it managed to reshape Don Chinjao's head while going against his strongest Hassouken headbutt imbued with Haki, not that it K.O'd Don Chinjao (which it didn't). In other words, Luffy's attack coming out on top and sending Don Chinjao flying (through his Hassouken ougi) into the water (which is all he needed to win the match) is an impressive enough feat in itself.

And what I'm saying is that EG heavily damaged Chinjao and knocked the wind out of him, it didn't completely incapacitate him especially since we see him up and about _literally right after the match was over_.


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## Dellinger (Mar 8, 2014)

It did KO Chinjao.

What we see on panel is proof of that.


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 8, 2014)

There isn't a panel that proves he was completely KO'd. Especially since he's standing up to talk with Luffy right after the fight just ended.


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## Coruscation (Mar 8, 2014)

Caesar was awake and talking shortly after getting knocked the fuck out by Grizzly Magnum because exterior forces woke him up. Chinjao being shaken awake by his grandchildren after they pulled him out of the water is the most logical way to view the scene. If he wasn't unconscious Oda wouldn't have drawn him sinking like a rock with whited out eyes. You have no good explanation for that whereas there are no holes with the idea of him being KO'd and awoken. Whited out eyes and characters waking up quickly after being KO'd have both happened by themselves so neither alone can decide the answer. It's the combination of factors that show us Chinjao was out.


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Caesar was awake and talking shortly after getting knocked the fuck out by Grizzly Magnum because exterior forces woke him up. Chinjao being shaken awake by his grandchildren after they pulled him out of the water is the most logical way to view the scene.


That's not the same thing though. Don Chinjao used his strongest Hassouken technique against Luffy's EG, got sent into the water after losing the clash, and was seen standing up literally right after the match ended. CC got hit by the full brunt of Grizzly Magnum, got sent half way across the island, and couldn't immediately stand up at all once he woke up.

(Not to mention that the time frame of Caesar being KO'd was longer than the time frame between the end of the colosseum match and Don C going to talk with Luffy.)

Shaken awake? Why couldn't it just be that they simply helped him out of the water since he just got the wind knocked out of him by Luffy's attack? The same thing happened to Lucci (his eyes were whited out as well) when he landed on that Marine ship thanks to Luffy's G3 hit yet he still stood up afterwards. If two Marines helped Lucci up and we see him standing to continue his fight with Luffy, I don't think anyone would assume that he was ever rendered completely unconscious. 



Coruscation said:


> If he wasn't unconscious Oda wouldn't have drawn him sinking like a rock with whited out eyes. You have no good explanation for that whereas there are no holes with the idea of him being KO'd and awoken. Whited out eyes and characters waking up quickly after being KO'd have both happened by themselves so neither alone can decide the answer. It's the combination of factors that show us Chinjao was out.


Don Chinjao with whited out eyes isn't proof that he's unconscious. We see him with whited out eyes in the scans shown below:

 (Eyes whited out on impact.)
 (Eyes still whited out in midair.)

...yet he was still able to fight afterwards. 

And again, he got the wind knocked out of him which left him dazed (just like Lucci) for a brief moment. If his grandsons pulled him out and we saw that he was completely unconcious without even talking or moving, then I'd agree that Luffy's attack KO'd Don Chinjao but we see him up and about right afterwards when he went to go thank Luffy.


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## Slenderman (Mar 9, 2014)

He lost consciousness for a second when his eyes were not visible. He rolled them back in.


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## trance (Mar 9, 2014)

A second? It was longer than that. He was KOed right  and was *still* KOed . Luffy (who was higher up in the air then Chinjao) had enough time to land and the announcer had time to announce Luffy as the winner. That was more than just a "second".


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## Coruscation (Mar 9, 2014)

> That's not the same thing though. Don Chinjao used his strongest Hassouken technique against Luffy's EG, got sent into the water after losing the clash, and was seen standing up literally right after the match ended. CC got hit by the full brunt of Grizzly Magnum, got sent half way across the island, and couldn't immediately stand up at all once he woke up.
> 
> (Not to mention that the time frame of Caesar being KO'd was longer than the time frame between the end of the colosseum match and Don C going to talk with Luffy.)



This is all completely irrelevant. It does not dispute the point that someone can be temporarily KO'd and heavily damaged and still be awake and (barely) talking quickly afterwards (SHs vs Oars also shows it, I'm certain there are other instances, but we don't need any of them because this one right here works fine). The exact timespan is not a point of relevance.



> Shaken awake? Why couldn't it just be that they simply helped him out of the water since he just got the wind knocked out of him by Luffy's attack?



The post you quoted was not arguing that it *couldn't* be that. It was arguing as to what makes more sense. Please separate the two. Them pulling him out and shaking him awake is the most logical interpretation of the scene.



> Don Chinjao with whited out eyes isn't proof that he's unconscious.



.........that is exactly what the post you quoted says :/ Please read a little more carefully as all three of your contentions have not actually addressed the arguments I made. White eyes *nor* your idea that because he was awake to talk after the match is proof by themselves. It's the combination of his eyes being whited out, there being zero signs of consciousness and him sinking like a rock to the bottom of the pool that paint the overall picture of him having gone temporarily unconscious from the attack. In any case, the original reason for you creating this point seemed to be that you wanted to argue that Luffy didn't actually defeat Chinjao but only won due to Coliseum rules. This is emphatically false. Thor EG was such a hard hit to Chinjao that he was shown to barely if at all be able to stand up by himself and had trouble uttering words. He was conclusively defeated. He could not fight any more at all.


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## Lawliet (Mar 9, 2014)

Chinjao was barely walking after the fight. He needed his grandsons to help him.


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## November (Mar 9, 2014)

So... what's the general consensus?


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## Imagine (Mar 9, 2014)

^Chinjao gets bopped.


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> This is all completely irrelevant. It does not dispute the point that someone can be temporarily KO'd and heavily damaged and still be awake and (barely) talking quickly afterwards (SHs vs Oars also shows it, I'm certain there are other instances, but we don't need any of them because this one right here works fine). The exact timespan is not a point of relevance.


A difference I was trying to point out between those two cases was that Caeser couldn't immediately stand despite being able to talk, while Don Chinjao was actually shown standing on his own (after receiving help out of the water) shortly after the match was over.

Time is relevant. The SH's only got up after a lengthy amount of time passed. The same can't be said for Chinjao since he's up and about literally right after the match ended.



Coruscation said:


> The post you quoted was not arguing that it *couldn't* be that. It was arguing as to what makes more sense. Please separate the two. Them pulling him out and shaking him awake is the most logical interpretation of the scene.


My bad, I should've worded my sentence as it's also plausible to say that the scenario I described could've happened as well. 



Coruscation said:


> .........that is exactly what the post you quoted says :/ Please read a little more carefully as all three of your contentions have not actually addressed the arguments I made. White eyes *nor* your idea that because he was awake to talk after the match is proof by themselves. It's the combination of his eyes being whited out, there being zero signs of consciousness and him sinking like a rock to the bottom of the pool that paint the overall picture of him having gone temporarily unconscious from the attack. In any case, the original reason for you creating this point seemed to be that you wanted to argue that Luffy didn't actually defeat Chinjao but only won due to Coliseum rules. This is emphatically false. Thor EG was such a hard hit to Chinjao that he was shown to barely if at all be able to stand up by himself and had trouble uttering words. He was conclusively defeated. He could not fight any more at all.


If the factors alone don't suggest unconsciousness, then why should they suggest it when combined? The whited out eyes shouldn't contribute to that notion since we already covered that it doesn't suggest consciousness.

Neither should Don Chinjao appearing to be sinking since that's just him having the wind knocked out of him (which might've given Luffy an opening for another attack but still doesn't suggest he was KO'd at that moment). Just like what happened to Lucci when he got the wind knocked out of him by G3 and temporarily couldn't get up on that Marine ship yet still being able to stand up to fight right afterwards. Just like how Oz got the wind knocked out of him after getting hit by NM Luffy's Storm in , but stood up shortly afterwards in . 

The chapter ended right there in that first scan of Oz being laid out and we could've assumed that NM Luffy defeated him (based on the combination of factors), but we would've been wrong since he stood up afterwards and was still capable of fighting despite being badly damaged and talking and whatnot. Cases like this are exactly why we shouldn't outright say that Don Chinjao was defeated by Luffy, especially considering the fact that we see him standing on his own right after the match ended.


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## Coruscation (Mar 9, 2014)

> A difference I was trying to point out between those two cases was that Caeser couldn't immediately stand despite being able to talk, while Don Chinjao was actually shown standing on his own (after receiving help out of the water) shortly after the match was over.



These are merely differences of magnitude, not of principle. Caesar was knocked out harder than Chinjao and doesn't have the pain tolerance and toughness of the old man, so it's entirely logical he took longer to wake up. This does not change the fact that one can get KO'd but awake quickly afterwards. The principle is the exact same.



> The whited out eyes shouldn't contribute to that notion since we already covered that it doesn't suggest consciousness.



Sorry but that's not how evidence works. Simply because one piece by itself is not proof does not mean it's not evidence incapable of building up to a larger picture when synergizing with other factors. By this logic you would have to discard your own piece of evidence that he was awake and talking shortly afterwards because that does not indicate he was not unconscious at the time of getting hit either.



> Neither should Don Chinjao appearing to be sinking since that's just him having the wind knocked out of him



"Appearing"? There is no doubt at all that he _was_ sinking. You are now attempting to fit the evidence to the conclusion and not the other way around. Please look at that scene in earnest, and the scene that follows where he isn't even capable of standing up by himself and has trouble even uttering words; is what you see here a man who's only had the wind knocked out of him? I will not believe that. Those words are clearly not suitable to describe Don Chinjao's state upon and after being hit by TEG. You seem to have already decided on the conclusion and is working to fit everything into the idea that Chinjao was not temporarily KO'd.



> Cases like this are exactly why we shouldn't outright say that Don Chinjao was defeated by Luffy, especially considering the fact that we see him standing on his own right after the match ended.



The comparison is _completely_ dishonest. He was NOT standing on his own. He had to be held up by both of his grandchildren. He struggled to just get a few words out of his mouth. In addition to this he looked like he'd been hit by a freight train and was sinking white-eyed headfirst like a rock after the attack hit him. These things without any doubt shows a man who was conclusively and completely defeated.


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## Kings Disposition (Mar 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> These are merely differences of magnitude, not of principle. Caesar was knocked out harder than Chinjao and doesn't have the pain tolerance and toughness of the old man, so it's entirely logical he took longer to wake up. This does not change the fact that one can get KO'd but awake quickly afterwards. The principle is the exact same.


The difference still being that CC couldn't immediately stand at all upon regaining consciousness and I wouldn't exactly call it quickly either.



Coruscation said:


> "Appearing"? There is no doubt at all that he _was_ sinking. You are now attempting to fit the evidence to the conclusion and not the other way around. Please look at that scene in earnest, and the scene that follows where he isn't even capable of standing up by himself and has trouble even uttering words; is what you see here a man who's only had the wind knocked out of him? I will not believe that. Those words are clearly not suitable to describe Don Chinjao's state upon and after being hit by TEG. You seem to have already decided on the conclusion and is working to fit everything into the idea that Chinjao was not temporarily KO'd.


Getting the wind knocked out of him aren't the words I used to describe Chinjao's overall state (earlier I mentioned that he was heavily injured). I said that to describe how he momentarily was after just getting hit by Luffy's attack and sent into the water. Same thing happened to Oz (just replace water with building) yet he still got up afterwards despite being also being badly beaten up. Had Don Chinjao:

1) Not have been disqualified upon ring out
2) Remained angry at Garp's grandson

It wouldn't be far fetched to assume that he could've gotten up as well to continue his fight with Luffy since we definitely see him standing on his own (see post #83) afterwards...you're making it seem as if he ended up exactly like CC (who was practically motionless and couldn't even stand at all upon waking up) when he didn't.



Coruscation said:


> The comparison is _completely_ dishonest. He was NOT standing on his own. He had to be held up by both of his grandchildren. He struggled to just get a few words out of his mouth. In addition to this he looked like he'd been hit by a freight train and was sinking white-eyed headfirst like a rock after the attack hit him. These things without any doubt shows a man who was conclusively and completely defeated.


How is it completely dishonest? I already pointed out that his grand children helped him up in my post here: 



Kings Disposition said:


> while Don Chinjao was actually shown standing on his own (after receiving help out of the water) shortly after the match was over.



...and that still doesn't change the fact that he was able to stand on his own in the scans I provided in post #83. If two marines went to help Lucci up after being dazed for a brief moment by G3, would you assume that he was incapable of standing and still fighting with Luffy?

And with that line of thinking at the end of your post there, one would wrongfully conclude that Oz (at the end if Ch. 479) and Lucci (at the end of Ch. 421) were both "completely defeated" by Luffy upon finishing those chapters.


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## Ryuksgelus (Mar 9, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> I thought Hawk rifle made him bleed



And he flipped right back up afterwards. Fact it takes G2+a Rifle+hardening just to breach Chinjao's hardened abs means he is a tank. A bamboo strike isn't matching all the firepower. 

It would be a battle of attrition that would last a long time. Not a clear win for Vergo. Pointhyead wins because he obviously has far more firepower than even Luffy.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 9, 2014)

Flat head Chinjao eats the Bamboo. 

Patrick Star Chinjao splits Vergo in half.


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## Coruscation (Mar 9, 2014)

> The difference still being that CC couldn't immediately stand at all upon regaining consciousness and I wouldn't exactly call it quickly either.



Again. Differences in magnitude. Not principle. No need to repeat this.



> Getting the wind knocked out of him aren't the words I used to describe Chinjao's overall state (earlier I mentioned that he was heavily injured). I said that to describe how he momentarily was after just getting hit by Luffy's attack and sent into the water.



Uh, the attack that "knocked the wind out of him" is the _same_ attack that did all the damage that you call heavy injuries and not just getting the wind knocked out of him. All the meaningful damage that was actually inflicted on him came from that move. You can't separate the two as you please to fit your argumentation. TEG did a lot more than just knock the wind out of Don Chinjao. He had trouble even standing and speaking not just the very moments after the hit but when they met in the corridor.



> It wouldn't be far fetched to assume that he could've gotten up as well to continue his fight with Luffy since we definitely see him standing on his own (see post #83) afterwards...



Man =/ Do you have something against looking at the overall depiction of a scene or something? We see him standing on his own? No *we see him being supported by his grandchildren while having trouble even speaking*. This is the focus of the scene, the big emphasized panel. He is *not* moving around on his own like you describe it in order to make it seem like he was in better health than we can tell with our eyes that he was. Just because they let him go for a moment or two doesn't take anything away from what the scene is actually depicting: a man who struggles to even walk and speak, looking like a dump truck just ran him over, being supported by one person on each side. Not a man in any kind of immediate fighting condition. It is an *incredibly* far fetched assumption that he could have gotten up and kept fighting. It's going in the complete opposite direction of what the scene portrays to the reader.



> And with that line of thinking at the end of your post there, one would wrongfully conclude that Oz (at the end if Ch. 479) and Lucci (at the end of Ch. 421) were both "completely defeated" by Luffy upon finishing those chapters.



No. These scenes have a huge difference, they *show* that Oars and Lucci were not defeated. The fights were not finished. Why would we jump to conclusions about fights that aren't finished. We are many chapters past Luffy vs. Chinjao, there is no such element of doubt here. That fight ended there and then with the reader being shown 1) Chinjao sinking like headfirst and white-eyed like a rock 2) Chinjao barely being able to move around and speak when he's out of the water. There are no faulty conclusions to jump from because the event is finished and we know all the parameters. They tell us Chinjao was defeated period.


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