# Kisame vs Jiraiya



## CoockiesAndMilf (May 21, 2013)

*
--------- 
Jiraiya vs Kisame

Location: Turtle Island

Distance: 25 meters

Knowledge: manga

Restrictions: FCD

How does this battle play out? *​


----------



## Legendary Itachi (May 21, 2013)

Even Kisame said Jiraiya beats him.

Any CQC of Kisame will be countered by Needle Jizo.
Jiraiya can summon 1 Giant Toad when Kisame makes water dome, which Kisame has no effective way to defeat it before Jiraiya enters Sage Mode.
SM Jiraiya says goodbye to Kisame.


----------



## Mithos (May 21, 2013)

Jiraiya uses giant summons to stall for time to enter Sage Mode. Once Sage Mode has been achieved, there is nothing Kisame has that can stop. Super powerful ninjutsu, senses, immense strength and speed...frog song isn't needed, but he could probably stall for that too - in which case GG. 

I don't think Jiraiya actually needs Sage Mode to win either. His giant summons are good offensively and defensively against Kisame's water attacks and water dome. Add in Jiraiya's hair techniques and elemental jutsu and Rasengan vairants and Kisame is going down. 

Without Sage Mode, Jiraiya wins with difficulty 

With Sage Mode, Jiraiya wins with moderate difficulty - only because of the time it would take to prepare it. If he started with it active, he would win with low-moderate difficulty.


----------



## tanman (May 21, 2013)

These two are about as equal as a pairing gets. Comparable to Itachi/Minato or Madara/Hashirama.

Kisame Suiton > Jiraiya's Katon
Kisame's Doton < Jiraiya's Doton
Samehada = Hair Techniques
Water Dome = Summons
Shark Mode = Sage Mode (in the water)

They're quite balanced. The only thing that could tip the scales for me is Frog Song, which will be particularly hard to execute in the water but it might be possible.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 21, 2013)

Jiraiya will win this in base.

For a start, he's been represented as being in a class below the Sannin: in his own admission of inferiority, his inability to escape Jiraiya's opening jutsu without Itachi when they ran away, and the fact that Kisame has been portrayed on the same level as Gai- Kakashi's rival, when it took Naruto gaining another arc's powerup to surpass the Sannin after he had already surpassed Kakashi.

Rasengan won't be an option since it's pure chakra, but Jiraiya's multiple hair techniques can impale Kisame before the chakra is taken out of them (it has to bite down to actually suck chakra out of something that isn't pure chakra). If Jiraiya can stab Kisame and rip Samehada away from him while he recoils he can use Yomi Numa and pretty much be done with him.

I don't see the waterdome being effective either. Frogs and toads are at home in the water, and with Gamabunta's insane leaps I'm certain he'd get out of it without any difficulties.

I just can't see Kisame winning this.


----------



## Trojan (May 21, 2013)

Jman wins 10/10 with almost no difficult. 

Jman almost one shot Kisame. Honestly Kismae doesn't stand a chance.
Jman does not even need SM.


----------



## Jad (May 21, 2013)

I think this _"Kisame was portrayed way below Jiraiya"_ argument is getting old. Kisame at Part-2 was given a better title, a Bijuu hunter. Someone that Tobi thought confidentially he could go and capture the 8-tails by himself. I'll probably won't go tit-for-tat in terms of trying to figure out who wins. But believe me, Kisame is a contender for Jiraiya, you don't get called a Bijuu hunter or a person designed to fight Bijuu's and  considered still below Base Jiraiya. It doesn't even sound right.


----------



## Bonly (May 21, 2013)

Jiraiya's only way of winning would be in SM. When it comes to base Jiraiya:

Any Katon's Jiraiya use can be either countered by Kisame's Suiton or Kisame can go underground to escape to safety.

Jiraiya's Rasengan's would start to get absorb and do less damage to Kisame or Samehada upon which the damage could likely be healed. 

Kisame is the superior CQC fighter. The only problem Kisame could have would be any gaiant toads Jiraiya brought out but they would likely be taken out in time. Once Jiraiya goes SM he pretty much has the upperhand and can win more times then not but he'll need it.

I believe Jiraiya can stall long enough to ensure he gets into SM so I see him winning more times then not.


----------



## Jad (May 21, 2013)

How does Sage Mode Jiraiya work in Water Dome? Kisame is the much quicker opponent and only needs a swipe of Jiraiya to drain him of his chakara. That means Kisame is also fast on-land considering the dome follows.

I mean Yomi Numa - Doesn't matter, Water dome is always centered around Kisame.

Frog Song - Most likely loses it's effectiveness underwater, considering the toads needed to synch up their voice. So having the right pitch is important.

Boss summons - Instantly swiped and drained of any chakara.

Rasengans - Dodged easily underwater.

Wild Lions Main - Dodged underwater, and if Jiaiya is covering himself, who cares? Kamikaze it. Drown him if need be.

Frog Call - Again, most likely loses it's effectiveness underwater.


----------



## Trojan (May 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> I think this _"Kisame was portrayed way below Jiraiya"_ argument is getting old. Kisame at Part-2 was given a better title, a Bijuu hunter. Someone that Tobi thought confidentially he could go and capture the 8-tails by himself. I'll probably won't go tit-for-tat in terms of trying to figure out who wins. But believe me, Kisame is a contender for Jiraiya, you don't get called a Bijuu hunter or a person designed to fight Bijuu's and  considered still below Base Jiraiya. It doesn't even sound right.



Part 1 IS part of Naruto as well. If Kisame turn out to be stronger than whet WE know before
that only make Jiraiya GREATER not the other way around! Yes, we may not know Kisame's full
power back then, but HE knows his power, and he said he's below BASE Jman. So he is. 

saying Jman will need SM is Overrating Kisame.


----------



## Jad (May 21, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Part 1 IS part of Naruto as well. If Kisame turn out to be stronger than whet WE know before
> that only make Jiraiya GREATER not the other way around! Yes, we may not know Kisame's full
> power back then, but HE knows his power, and he said he's below BASE Jman. So he is.
> 
> saying Jman will need SM is Overrating Kisame.



I think Kisame was overrating the title of the Sannin. I mean its like chinese whispers, you get called Legendary and you start hearing over exaggerated stories. I mean Kisame has never even witnessed Jiraiya fight. Jiraiya was a hermit for some years out of action. So it isn't exactly like Kisame had fresh information as well.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 21, 2013)

Fighters that do not use enormous direct chakra blast and chakra cloaks are kinda like nightmares who can nerf kisame a bit. Not to mention when they have a large versatile moveset that cannot be countered easily from all angles. Jiraiya fit these descriptions imo.

At the start needle jizo/wild lions mane can be used to deter kisame from CQC since slashing that will either get him pierced or samahada pierced(or both). Yomi numa can be used to throw kisame off balance and any gama can be used to stall for SM or get away from kisame if things get to crazy for some reason. Kisame can respond with a lake full of sharks but those are not killing any gama before jiraiya musters the charka to summon ma and pa. Once SM comes out then jiraiya versatility game goes up and kisame goes down hard. Even if kisame gets off waterdome multiple targets(frogs are gonna be a bitch to contain when all of them are swimming away from kisame. If pa can figure out the rinnegan then i am sure he can realize this tactic. 

With jiraiya getting freed(and by extension ma and a since they are attached to him) the final strike can come in many ways like genjutsu for instance. Kisame can be finished off even before the trump cards come out but no matter what jiraiya will seem to have the upperhand.


----------



## Dr. White (May 21, 2013)

Uhm this match is gonna be a bit harder for J-Man than you guys believe..

Kisame knows firsthand how dangerous Jiraiya is, without Itachi he would have been soloed in the first encounter most likely, and manga knowledge favors Kisame more than not. 

Kisame most likely begins the battle flooding it like he did the first time vs Gai. This will cause J-Man to summon one of his big boys. Kisame is going to begin raining down shark missile, and feeding shark frenzies,and for me this is where it gets hard. Jiraiya's toads counter kisame's water by nature of being amphibious, but the impact from the missles and their carnivorous nature can still affect the toads, Gambunta would be forced to fight, and nothing Jiraiya has can counter the mass amounts of water that will be flooding in(hell he even has the sea to work with a couple hundreds yards away.) 

Jiraiya would need to go Sage Mode, and he could possibly do so by secretely leaving in a small toad while leaving gambunta and co fight Kisame's barrage. I don't know how likely it is but he is a master of stealth so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Sage Mode J-Man would need Ma, and Pa to come packed with their fuuton/tongue techniques to help him balance the water.

Basically if Kisame can get off his Mega shark missile, before Jiraiya enters Sage mode he has this is in the bag, but if not SM Jiraiya will either outright blitz or outpower him with Ma/Pa's help, or Kisame will end up taking in the Natural Energy(he has no knowledge on SM)and turn to stone.

I'll give it to Jiraiya High difficulty 6-7/10 times


----------



## CoockiesAndMilf (May 22, 2013)

*Guys, just to make it clear, FCD is RESTRICTED, read the OP.*


----------



## Axiom (May 22, 2013)

Joker J said:


> also the shooting hair needles was anime only.



Not really sure what you're referring to here, as I don't follow the anime all that closely.  However, J-man definitely has a hair shooting technique, albeit in sage mode.

Anyway, with regards to the match, I think Base Kisame is quite a bit better than Base Jiraiya.  Kisame can win trades up close and doesn't tire.  He and Samehada have the capacity to absorb which also gives Kisame defense from basically everything Jiraiya throws at him.  Yomi Numa can be absorbed, really the only potent offense Jiraiya can use while in base is his Toad Oil Flame Bullet in conjunction with Gamabunta, but Kisame with his Suitons has the capacity to counter that as well.  Were this restricted to base, I would see Kisame as taking it through his ability to stay out of harm's way against base Jiraiya.  However, SM Jiraiya is then leaps and bounds better than Base Kisame, but SM Jiraiya Vs Kisamehada is interesting.  Kisamehada can absorb almost anything thrown at hit, completely destroy Jiraiya in CQC by winning every trade, and then use his Water Dome hax and other crap.  I see SM Jiraiya as having an answer for Daikodan and Senshokuko, but the Water Dome is a lot more tricky.  He can't do anything to Kisame while Kisame is in it and he can't force Kisame out of it.  Even if his frogs manage to leap out of it, Kisame's still invulnerable and free to chase it.

At the end of the day though, I think Kisame would be forced to choose between Daikodan or the Water Dome as his super hax last gambit.  If he chooses the latter I think he'll win, and if he chooses the former I think he loses, so this is pretty much 50/50 in my eyes.


----------



## Jad (May 22, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Kisame will end up taking in the Natural Energy(he has no knowledge on SM)and turn to stone.



It will be a draw then, because Kisame only needs one touch to waste all of Jiraiya's chakara.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 22, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Uhm this match is gonna be a bit harder for J-Man than you guys believe..
> 
> Kisame knows firsthand how dangerous Jiraiya is, without Itachi he would have been soloed in the first encounter most likely, and manga knowledge favors Kisame more than not.
> 
> ...


----------



## Legend777 (May 22, 2013)

We saw Kisame clearly admitting inferiority to Jiraiya and I haven't seen a single statement contradicting that further in the manga . 

Jiraiya wins this one .


----------



## Joker J (May 22, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Not really sure what you're referring to here, as I don't follow the anime all that closely.  However, J-man definitely has a hair shooting technique, albeit in sage mode.



I was referring to .


----------



## Kisame (May 24, 2013)

In SM Jiraiya wins, and I honestly don't think Kisame's repertoire is versatile enough to stop/delay him enough from going SM.

I definitely think Kisame can take base Jiraiya though.


----------



## crisler (May 24, 2013)

kisame is a chakra beast with water elements that makes it difficult for jiraiya to use some jutsus

i do think jiraiya will win, but without SM i don't see jiraiya winning more than not.

the summons won't do much.


----------



## Baroxio (May 24, 2013)

With the exception of Frog Song, which may or may not work properly underwater, what has Sage Mode Jiraiya shown that gives him a victory over Kisame, let alone Base Jiraiya?

Bigger Katon? Still dwarfed by any of Kisame's most basic Suitons.
Oil flood? Out-flooded by even 30% Shoutn Kisame's Bakushi Shoha
Giant Rasengan? Absorbed by Samehada, which can absorb 6 tails of Hachibi cakra in a single swipe, as well as tehniques like Raiton flow.
Giant Summons? Their Chakra can be absorbed and they can be outsped. None of them have up to 6 tails of Hachibi Chakra and none of them are faster than Kisame underwater, who necessitated a 6-gated Gai jump on top of a Hachibi superthrow to catch up to (mind you Kisame still had enough time to prep his Shark scroll and write out all the information he found out, just to let you know how ridiculous his underwater speed is).
Better Speed? Kisame reacted to and blocked tailed versions of Killer Bee multiple times.

What exactly does Jiraiya do against Daikodan, Sage Mode or not?

The only argument I can see for Jiraiya is Kisame absorbing enough Natural Energy to turn to stone, however the only reason this happened to Fat Pein is that they were trying to capture Naruto and hold him in place, allowing him to draw direct, unbalanced Natural Energy. The already balanced Sage Chakra can be absorbed with absolutely no problems as we've seen. 

Unless Kisame holds Jiraiya down and allows him to absorb Natural Energy without killing him, a petrifaction scenario shouldn't ever really occur.

But hey, perhaps I am missing some of Jiraiya's feats. By all means, show me the feats that allow him to win the battle and I will reconsider my opinion.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (May 24, 2013)

If Kisame absorbs J-man's Sennin chakra, he turns to stone. GG. Jiraiya wins.


----------



## CoockiesAndMilf (May 24, 2013)

*Kisame needs to absorb huge amounts of this chakra in order to go under frog petrification.
Jiraiya in SM doesn't have as much natural energy in his body as Naruto, because Naruto's chakra reserves are larger, yet Preta absorbed Naruto's SM twice before it turned into stone, and it also absorbed some unbalanced Senjutsu chakra the second time.
Also, Kisame's chakra reserves are larger than Preta's, so he should be able to handle more Senjutsu chakra.
And yes, I know Jiraiya's SM is ''infinite'', but that's because they Ma and Pa refill his natural energy reserves, which means he doesn't have more Senjutsu chakra than SM Naruto when both are fresh, it's just Jiraiya's SM doesn't end until he wastes all of his regular chakra reserves.

It takes Kisamehada about a second or two to take all of Jiraiya's chakra if he hits him, so it isn't like Ma and Pa can infuse Jiraiya with enough natural energy in such a short time that Kisame will turn into stone, so Kisame sucks/absorbs all of Jiraiya's chakra/senjutsu chakra and doesn't go under frog petrifictation the way I see it, especially in a scenario where he doesn't absorb any unbalanced Senjutsu chakra.*


----------



## Kai (May 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:
			
		

> What exactly does Jiraiya do against Daikodan, Sage Mode or not?


Why would Kisame launch Daikodan without having met an opposing force that would proportionally strengthen Daikodan from its chakra?

How do you know Jiraiya couldn't simply tank Daikodan as is without any sort of inflation in Sage Mode?


----------



## Kisame (May 25, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> The only argument I can see for Jiraiya is Kisame absorbing enough Natural Energy to turn to stone, however the only reason this happened to Fat Pein is that they were trying to capture Naruto and hold him in place, allowing him to draw direct, unbalanced Natural Energy. The already balanced Sage Chakra can be absorbed with absolutely no problems as we've seen.


...That's a really good point I never noticed.

Do you think we can say that if Kisame absorbs Jiraiya's already balanced Sage Chakra his techniques will be amplified (i.e like he is in Sage Mode)? Due to the process of gathering natural energy and turning it to Chakra was already done by Jiraiya?


----------



## Shattering (May 25, 2013)

Waterdome GG, he will never reach SM.


----------



## Baroxio (May 25, 2013)

Shark said:


> ...That's a really good point I never noticed.
> 
> Do you think we can say that if Kisame absorbs Jiraiya's already balanced Sage Chakra his techniques will be amplified (i.e like he is in Sage Mode)? Due to the process of gathering natural energy and turning it to Chakra was already done by Jiraiya?


Probably not, since the Sage chakra is Jiraiya's chakra (JC) balanced with Natural Energy (NE), or NE + JC = Sage Chakra.

If Kisame absorbs Sage Chakra, then it would be KC (Kisame's chakra) + JC + NE, which would mean that there isn't enough Natural energy to properly balance the two.

As Fukasaku said, too much Natural Energy turns you into a toad, but too little doesn't do shit.

Of course, too much would only occur if Kisame attempts to hold Jiraiya down and drain him dry, allowing Jiraiya a chance to absorb enough pure natural energy to overwhelm Kisame's chakra.

But such a scenario would never likely happen in a death-match.


----------



## Mithos (May 25, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Waterdome GG, he will never reach SM.



Jiraiya can summon giant toads to help him escape the water-dome...


----------



## FlamingRain (May 25, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Jiraiya can summon giant toads to help him escape the water-dome...



Really this.

I don't see how the Waterdome accomplishes anything.

Even if the dome can move fast enough to stop one summon jumping out of it (somehow), Jiraiya can have another toad go in the opposite direction and re-summon whichever is left.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 25, 2013)

Jiraiya unlike Naruto though is constantly gathering Sage Chakra with the help of Fukasaku and Shima so a Samehada swipe isn't going to take him out of Sage Mode. 

There's the fact that he has Yomi Noma, an Earth Technique which has the elemental advantage to Kisame's Suitons, the fact he has oil to clog up Kisame's vision if he tries the Waterdome, the fact that he has summons that can breathe underwater and therefore fight Kisame underwater, the fact he has multiple giant summons to attack Kisame, AS WELL AS 2 very strong small frogs on his shoulder that can use their tongues to restrain Kisame. There's the fact that if those 2 frogs prepped their Frog Song, you could argue it would work underwater too.

In my opinion Jiraiya is too much for Kisame. He kills him, and Waterdome wears off. If it doesn't wear off after he dies, he proceeds to swim out. Plus, Fukasaku and Shima could reverse summon him out if one of them swam the other direction (very out of character but it is an option). Not only is he above his level, he has the elemental advantage, and summons that can make Kisame's strengths not as useful.


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 26, 2013)

J-Man Already showed that his Toad Stomache Jutsu makes him superior to Kisame. His Swamp Underworld is A-Class and Earth which is stronger than Water. With Jaraiya's Smmons and various Jutsus, he can either Kill Kisame in base or embarrass him in SM.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Jiraiya can summon giant toads to help him escape the water-dome...



If Kisame is in Water dome, than he must be in Kisamehada state (apparently), which means he is the fastest in it. The water follows him. You see where I am going? Kisamehada only needs one touch from either Jiraiya or the boss toads. Preta path was able to absorb 'balanced' sage chakara via his Sage Mode Rasengan (considering sage mode chakara increases ninjutsu, so it would have that in his ninjutsu).

Jiraiya, sage mode or not, cannot hurt Kisamehada in water dome, his got nothing on him. All his techniques are reduced to nothing. And Kisamehada is the fastest thing underwater, I highly doubt Jiraiya is escaping him.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Jiraiya unlike Naruto though is constantly gathering Sage Chakra with the help of Fukasaku and Shima so a *Samehada swipe isn't going to take him out of Sage Mode. *
> 
> There's the fact that he has Yomi Noma, an Earth Technique which has the elemental advantage to Kisame's Suitons, the fact he has oil to clog up Kisame's vision if he tries the Waterdome, the fact that he has summons that can breathe underwater and therefore fight Kisame underwater, the fact he has multiple giant summons to attack Kisame, AS WELL AS 2 very strong small frogs on his shoulder that can use their tongues to restrain Kisame. There's the fact that if those 2 frogs prepped their Frog Song, you could argue it would work underwater too.
> 
> In my opinion Jiraiya is too much for Kisame. He kills him, and Waterdome wears off. If it doesn't wear off after he dies, he proceeds to swim out. Plus, Fukasaku and Shima could reverse summon him out if one of them swam the other direction (very out of character but it is an option). Not only is he above his level, he has the elemental advantage, and summons that can make Kisame's strengths not as useful.



You do know Kisame doesn't need to see, hence Bee's squid ink didn't really do anything to slow him down. Yomi-numa does jack, because the water follows Kisame. Plus Kisame is above ground in Water Dome. Kisame only needs one touch for each person he fights, he was able to suck up Bijuu levels of Chakara. Jiraiya nor his boss toads have that level of chakara. So for example, the *bolded* text, Jiraiya would instantly die. Frog song wouldn't work under-water unless you can present me with an argument.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 26, 2013)

Jad said:


> You do know Kisame doesn't need to see, hence Bee's squid ink didn't really do anything to slow him down. Yomi-numa does jack, because the water follows Kisame. Plus Kisame is above ground in Water Dome. Kisame only needs one touch for each person he fights, he was able to suck up Bijuu levels of Chakara. Jiraiya nor his boss toads have that level of chakara. So for example, the *bolded* text, Jiraiya would instantly die. Frog song wouldn't work under-water unless you can present me with an argument.



Isn't it more that the more chakra you have the more he drains, rather than him taking a fixed, Bijuu level of chakra each time? Also, he has his needle protection thing and his hair to wrap Kisame up. True, Yomi Numa wouldn't be much use in the dome, but if he executes it successfully before that happens, there's not much Kisame can do. Fukasaku or Shima could go the other way to Jiraiya and summon him out of the dome if necessary. I know it's out of character but a possible solution. And sound does travel through water, though I'm not sure whether they could sing underwater, which is why I think it's up for debate, but they are frogs in a manga about ninjas, so I don't think it's unreasonable to believe they could.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> *Isn't it more that the more chakra you have the more he drains, rather than him taking a fixed, Bijuu level of chakra each time?* Also, he has his needle protection thing and his hair to wrap Kisame up. True, Yomi Numa wouldn't be much use in the dome, but if he executes it successfully before that happens, there's not much Kisame can do. Fukasaku or Shima could go the other way to Jiraiya and summon him out of the dome if necessary. I know it's out of character but a possible solution. And sound does travel through water, though I'm not sure whether they could sing underwater, which is why I think it's up for debate, but they are frogs in a manga about ninjas, so I don't think it's unreasonable to believe they could.



You have to stop playing on the uncertainty. That's the only thing Jiraiya has going for him, if Frog Song can work underwater, but the sound displacement, how it comes out, it will be distorted, and the frogs took their time just to synch up their voices to the right tune. So I highly doubt it is plausible.

As for summoning him out of the water dome. What then? Is he going to run away from Kisame? Because there isn't much he can do to him inside or outside of the water dome. Plus technically Kisame is VERY fast on land because the Water dome follows him, and because his always surrounded by Water, his moving his fastest.

For the *bolded*, come on man, you are reaching here a bit too far. You even question mark it, pretty much implying you have no idea. He only collects large chakara supplies because the opponent has large chakara supplies. No....just because you say that, doesn't mean it's true. Follow manga lore, Kisame can take up bijuu level chakara's, that how it's been depicted, he touches you, your a goner. As for the hair thing, so what, he gets pricked by the hair and gets injured. It's a trade off that will win him the match.


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 26, 2013)

Jad said:


> If Kisame is in Water dome, than he must be in Kisamehada state (apparently), which means he is the fastest in it. The water follows him. You see where I am going? Kisamehada only needs one touch from either Jiraiya or the boss toads. Preta path was able to absorb 'balanced' sage chakara via his Sage Mode Rasengan (considering sage mode chakara increases ninjutsu, so it would have that in his ninjutsu).
> 
> Jiraiya, sage mode or not, cannot hurt Kisamehada in water dome, his got nothing on him. All his techniques are reduced to nothing. And Kisamehada is the fastest thing underwater, I highly doubt Jiraiya is escaping him.



Jaraiya still has his summons which can throw him out of the water, It would also take Kisame some time to absorb thier chakra giving Jaraiya time to ensnare him with his hair. Sound travels in water so Frong Song/Call is still applicable. Kisame also can't absorb Sage chakra so hell turn to stone like preta path.

J-Man in base can kill Kisame before he uses that Jutsus.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> Jaraiya still has his summons which can throw him out of the water, It would also take Kisame some time to absorb thier chakra giving Jaraiya time to ensnare him with his hair. Sound travels in water so Frong Song/Call is still applicable. Kisame also can't absorb Sage chakra so hell turn to stone like preta path.
> 
> J-Man in base can kill Kisame before he uses that Jutsus.



1. Prove to me the summons have bijuu level chakara and won't get murked by a touch.

2. Jiraiya's hair catching Kisame? That's actually a bad thing for Jiraiya, he catches him in his hair, he sucks his chakara bone dry in one shot.

3. Prove to me he can EVEN catch him in his hair whilst Kisame is in his fastest mode underwater.

4. Preta path absorbed Sage Mode Rasengan. Didn't get turned to stone.It's only when Naruto collected raw Natural energy without balancing it did Preta Path turn to stone.

5. Sound can travel underwater, but it's the tone and pitch of the frog song that will be distorted underwater. Hence won't work. It has to be pitch perfect.


----------



## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

I though Samehada's absorption only worked because Bee had a shroud up, i.e. the Chakra was exposed.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I though Samehada's absorption only worked because Bee had a shroud up, i.e. the Chakra was exposed.



That's what I thought at first, but he could shave Bee's chakara here with no shroud up [1]. Also that scan is proof Kisamehada can be blind, and still accurately attack his foe through chakara sensing. Sort of a play on sharks ability to naturally smell blood and go for it.


----------



## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

That was the Kisamehada fusion who was striking Bee multiple times.

I don't know if those feats are enough to claim that Samehada alone oneshots Jiriaya. If he's in Sage Mode, it wouldn't even work, as Ma & Pa replenish whatever Samehada takes from Jiraiya.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That was the Kisamehada fusion who was striking Bee multiple times.
> 
> I don't know if those feats are enough to claim that Samehada alone oneshots Jiriaya. If he's in Sage Mode, it wouldn't even work, as Ma & Pa replenish whatever Samehada takes from Jiraiya.



I don't understand. Samehada alone was able to swipe up to 6 tails worth of chakara. So if hypothetically, Kisame landed a shot on Jiraiya, his out 0% chakara. That is instant death. Frogs can't revive him. Same deal with Kisamehada plowing into Jiraiya.


----------



## Kai (May 26, 2013)




----------



## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

Jad said:


> I don't understand. Samehada alone was able to swipe up to 6 tails worth of chakara. So if hypothetically, Kisame landed a shot on Jiraiya, his out 0% chakara. That is instant death. Frogs can't revive him. Same deal with Kisamehada plowing into Jiraiya.



Base Bee tanked multiple hits from Kisamehada in the scan you provided and still lived. I'm fairly certain Base Bee's Chakra pool isn't greater than 6 tails of Hachibi Chakra, and it would have to be many times greater to tank that many hits.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

Good find. I have my own, remember Samehada stealing chakara from Base Bee when it bit his arm? Or when it bit his arm to replenish him also.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Base Bee tanked multiple hits from Kisamehada in the scan you provided and still lived. I'm fairly certain Base Bee's Chakra pool isn't greater than 6 tails of Hachibi Chakra, and it would have to be many times greater to tank that many hits.



No, he did that on purpose to shave his chakara off, he didn't wan to out right kill him from chakara depletion. That's a technique he uses.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 26, 2013)

Jad said:


> You have to stop playing on the uncertainty. That's the only thing Jiraiya has going for him, if Frog Song can work underwater, but the sound displacement, how it comes out, it will be distorted, and the frogs took their time just to synch up their voices to the right tune. So I highly doubt it is plausible.



Fair enough, but Kisame could speak fine underwater. And don't tell me to "stop playing on uncertainty" when discussing a match up in which we're unsure who wins. You're basing your entire assumption off the fact that Kisame will use water dome, and that Yomi Numa, toad stomach summoning, Sage Mode combo attacks/genjutsus won't hit him before he uses it, and given the fact that that was one of the last things Kisame resorted to, it's actually quite possible he will be finished before then, and when he puts water dome up Jiraiya can still win.



> As for summoning him out of the water dome. What then? Is he going to run away from Kisame? Because there isn't much he can do to him inside or outside of the water dome. Plus technically Kisame is VERY fast on land because the Water dome follows him, and because his always surrounded by Water, his moving his fastest.



I think you're conveniently forgetting Jiraiya has summons which can swim, and can wrap Kisame up with their tongues. If he absorbs their chakra, he will also absorb their natural energy which won't work out well for him. 



> For the *bolded*, come on man, you are reaching here a bit too far. You even question mark it, pretty much implying you have no idea. He only collects large chakara supplies because the opponent has large chakara supplies. No....just because you say that, doesn't mean it's true. Follow manga lore, Kisame can take up bijuu level chakara's, that how it's been depicted, he touches you, your a goner. As for the hair thing, so what, he gets pricked by the hair and gets injured. It's a trade off that will win him the match.



Fair enough, I was just wondering. Because whenever else he takes chakra, he never sucked them dry as a bone, and he stated himself as the opponent has more chakra he gets proportionally stronger. I do think it is open to interpretation and not as concrete as you're trying to make out.

The hair jabbed holes in Orochimaru's feet, and wrapped up Konan and Pain's summons. Not to mention his sage toads can also do the same, and that it will allow him to attack and restrain from a distance even in the water dome to avoid Kisame absorbing his chakra. Plus there's the fact that Kisame can't really absorb sage chakra or he's fucked too. And the fact that given that water dome is kind of a last resort jutsu he may die before he gets a chance to use it.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

Of course, all my posts are based on if Kisame gets water dome out, I never discussed what happens before than. I am only discussing the Water Dome part. I said that on the first page. I said "What is Kisame gets Jiraiya in water dome" Every time you say "Kisame will get wrapped in something", just know, that person who is wrapping him, their chakara is gone instantly.

You have a point about the Frogs having natural energy (*although I would  like a reference*). But I believe they were said to have natural energy and chakara balanced, so Kisame is fine. Preta path was able to absorb Sage Mode Jiraiya's rasengan**how many times do I have to repeat this**which would have been powered by sage chakara. Guess what, nothing. Preta path only turned to stone because Naruto was feeding him *raw natural energy.*

Kisame spoke underwater, so what? His voice could have been distorted. Frog song needs to be pitch perfect to work. Water is going to ruin that. Plus how do you know ANY of these attacks can hit him? His the fastest moving thing underwater...faster than all those attacks.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 26, 2013)

Jad said:


> Of course, all my posts are based on if Kisame gets water dome out, I never discussed what happens before than. I am only discussing the Water Dome part. I said that on the first page. I said "What is Kisame gets Jiraiya in water dome" Every time you say "Kisame will get wrapped in something", just know, that person who is wrapping him, their chakara is gone instantly.



I don't know, for example Jiraiya's hair is a ninjutsu, and Kisame can't absorb ninjutsu, only raw chakra. As for the toads, sage chakra would make it troublesome to absorb their chakra. 



> You have a point about the Frogs having natural energy (*although I would  like a reference*). But I believe they were said to have natural energy and chakara balanced, so Kisame is fine. Preta path was able to absorb Sage Mode Jiraiya's rasengan**how many times do I have to repeat this**which would have been powered by sage chakara. Guess what, nothing. Preta path only turned to stone because Naruto was feeding him *raw natural energy.*



Fukasaku and Shima are constantly gathering sage chakra while on Jiraiya's shoulders, aren't they?

Where does this natural energy and chakra balance thing come into play? I always thought Preta was absorbing just sage chakra, which contains natural energy which is how he turned to stone, not that he was only absorbing natural energy? 



> Kisame spoke underwater, so what? His voice could have been distorted. Frog song needs to be pitch perfect to work. Water is going to ruin that. Plus how do you know ANY of these attacks can hit him? His the fastest moving thing underwater...faster than all those attacks.



Fair enough. But I still don't see why they wouldn't land attacks. They're no slouches themselves and especially Fukasaku and Shima, being frogs I don't think their movements will be slowed down enough by water for Kisame to outright blitz them before they do something.


----------



## Jad (May 26, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> I don't know, for example Jiraiya's hair is a ninjutsu, and Kisame can't absorb ninjutsu, only raw chakra. As for the toads, sage chakra would make it troublesome to absorb their chakra.



Samehada was able to absorb, albeit didn't like the taste, Itahci's Katon jutsu.



> Fukasaku and Shima are constantly gathering sage chakra while on Jiraiya's shoulders, aren't they?
> 
> Where does this natural energy and chakra balance thing come into play? I always thought Preta was absorbing just sage chakra, which contains natural energy which is how he turned to stone, not that he was only absorbing natural energy?


mmmm....




> Fair enough. But I still don't see why they wouldn't land attacks. They're no slouches themselves and especially Fukasaku and Shima, being frogs I don't think their movements will be slowed down enough by water for Kisame to outright blitz them before they do something.



No real proof to suggest how fast they can swim underwater. But I can tell you one thing, put a shark and a couple of frogs in the tank, tell me how that plays out


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 26, 2013)

Jad said:


> Samehada was able to absorb, albeit didn't like the taste, Itahci's Katon jutsu.
> 
> 
> mmmm....



I was always under the impression it just split the path of the fire and couldn't really absorb it.



> No real proof to suggest how fast they can swim underwater. But I can tell you one thing, put a shark and a couple of frogs in the tank, tell me how that plays out



You make a good point. But give the frogs the ability to life enormous stone statues, create genjutsus, manipulate their tongues to ensnare a giant chameleon and be able to use futons and you have a match.


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 26, 2013)

Jad said:


> 1. Prove to me the summons have bijuu level chakara and won't get murked by a touch.
> 
> 2. Jiraiya's hair catching Kisame? That's actually a bad thing for Jiraiya, he catches him in his hair, he sucks his chakara bone dry in one shot.
> 
> ...



1.Boss Summons have a level close to Bijuu. Either way KB wasn't murked with a touch. He was able to partially transform and drag Kisame away from the bear.

2/3. Didn't say jmans hair was faster than Kisame under water. With the help of Frog Summons his Hair can catch Kisame and impale dozens of times...,KB was able to move him so who to say Jman couldn't finish him before he Ko

4.Yoyr argument applies well to Preta absorbing the Rasengan. But He absorbed Naruto's sage chakra twice before he turned to stone..so Kisame is turning to stone if he absorbs humans chakra directly or through his hair.

5. Frog Song does need a pitch an the pitch has to be in synch. Who's to say  they can't use this Jutsus under water, they are amphibians.

*Jman is part frog so he'll be able to move pretty agile underwater. You can still feel a punch underwater, Jman in SM can still hurt him even break his neck....And if Kisame absorbs his chakra he'll turn to stone.

Regardless Both start off in Base. underworld swamp or Toad esophagousus Takes the victory. JMan wins 7/10.


----------



## Baroxio (May 26, 2013)

Why are people talking about Yomi Numa being a factor in this match? People do remember that Kisame can swim through Earth as easily as he can swim through water, right? 

As for Toad stomach, Kisame can summon sharks. Thousands of sharks. I don't know about you, but I think thousands of sharks >> walls of meat.


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 26, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Why are people talking about Yomi Numa being a factor in this match? People do remember that Kisame can swim through Earth as easily as he can swim through water, right?
> 
> As for Toad stomach, Kisame can summon sharks. Thousands of sharks. I don't know about you, but I think thousands of sharks >> walls of meat.



Kisame needs a water source for that jutsu, and there isn't enough water in a fire breathing Toad to use. Kisame can't trump That Jutsu it was shown when Itachi had to use Ameratsu to break out.

JMan easily counters Water Dome with Summons that are able to release him.


----------



## Baroxio (May 27, 2013)

I stopped reading at "Kisame needs a water source." Seriously?


----------



## Kind of a big deal (May 27, 2013)

Bee was a freaking octopus and he trains underwater, it's safe to say he's not out of his element in water, and also one of the fastest people in the manga, he didn't even get caught off-guard by Minato. And he got blitzed by Kisame in the waterdome.

So anyone who even suggests that Jiraiya's frogs or Jiraiya himself are fast enough, needs to really rethink their opinion because they're saying Jiraiya's elderly frogs or the slow-witted large ones are faster than Bee.


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 27, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> I stopped reading at "Kisame needs a water source." Seriously?



Because Kisame can create a 1000 water sharks w/o a water source. Don't see it happening he was in the water when he used the freaking jutsu.

Frogs are amphibians water is thier natural habitat, they'll be agile enough to help Jaraiya escape.

Jman may not have a sufficient Jutsu to defeat Kisame in his Water Dome. But he has enough in his arsenal and the skill to Murk Kisame before he even gets to use his water some.


----------



## Baroxio (May 27, 2013)

Because Kisame can't spit up fuking *lakes *to create his own water source?


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 27, 2013)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Bee was a freaking octopus and he trains underwater, it's safe to say he's not out of his element in water, and also one of the fastest people in the manga, he didn't even get caught off-guard by Minato. And he got blitzed by Kisame in the waterdome.
> 
> So anyone who even suggests that Jiraiya's frogs or Jiraiya himself are fast enough, needs to really rethink their opinion because they're saying Jiraiya's elderly frogs or the slow-witted large ones are faster than Bee.



Didn't Bee still manage to restrain Kisame with tentacles though? Jiraiya can do the same, and he has multiple summons that can do that. And his method of restraining (his hair) can also turn into spiked weapons unlike Bee's tentacles. That is assuming Kisame survives long enough to realize he should use waterdome.

Oh and by the way, Bee is a human, not an octopus so not really sure what you're getting at. He didn't want to use Hachibi because of the damage to the landscape and Sabu and Ponta. And Hachibi is not an octopus either, it's a bull, with octopus tentacles.


----------



## Ghost (May 27, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Oh and by the way, Bee is a human, not an octopus so not really sure what you're getting at. He didn't want to use Hachibi because of the damage to the landscape and Sabu and Ponta. And Hachibi is not an octopus either, it's a bull, with octopus tentacles.



Hachibi is a bull/octopus not a bull with tentacles, it can spit ink, bulls can't do that.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 27, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> Hachibi is a bull/octopus not a bull with tentacles, it can spit ink, bulls can't do that.



Bulls don't blast bombs out of their mouths either. Obviously they have some bull and some octopus features, but it seems to me that it's primarily a bull, so I don't see why that would make it a super fast swimmer. Like I said, he wasn't in tailed beast mode than anyway, he just sprouted a few tentacles IIRC.


----------



## Ghost (May 27, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Bulls don't blast bombs out of their mouths either.



Bull/octopuses do.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 27, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> Bull/octopuses do.



But that still doesn't mean they'd be able to swim particularly fast, especially not Bee who just has a few octopus tentacles transformed as he did against Kisame.


----------



## Joker J (May 28, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> 1.Boss Summons have a level close to Bijuu. Either way KB wasn't murked with a touch. He was able to partially transform and drag Kisame away from the bear.



No beast summon chakra is a close to a person chakra with their own chakra source combined with the 2nd to the strongest of bijuus chakra sources or aka a Jin again Bee own chakra + 8 tail Bijuu chakra = 8 tail jin and Kisame absorbed almost all of that chakra leaving him collapsed on the floor. 



> 2/3. Didn't say jmans hair was faster than Kisame under water. With the help of Frog Summons his Hair can catch Kisame and impale dozens of times...,KB was able to move him so who to say Jman couldn't finish him before he Ko



If the frog summons are out, water dome will definitely be out also with Kisame being fused to Samehada with that Kisame size and underwater swfitness speed will not be caught by Jiraiya hair even if there are toads underwater, their weapons are too large and will move to slowly in that situation. Kisame allowed himself to be touched by Bee. 



> 4.Yoyr argument applies well to Preta absorbing the Rasengan. But He absorbed Naruto's sage chakra twice before he turned to stone..so Kisame is turning to stone if he absorbs humans chakra directly or through his hair.



The capacity of the balanced sage chakra Kisame will be taking in will always be lower than the chakra Kisame is absorbing from Jiriaya into his own already large chakra source leaving the the balance sage chakra doing nothing to him except making Kisame chakra source larger.



> 5. Frog Song does need a pitch an the pitch has to be in synch. Who's to say  they can't use this Jutsus under water, they are amphibians.



Because the water will disrupt the perfect pitch they will have to make and they will already be under attack by Kisamehada to make things even more difficult.



> *Jman is part frog so he'll be able to move pretty agile underwater. You can still feel a punch underwater, Jman in SM can still hurt him even break his neck....And if Kisame absorbs his chakra he'll turn to stone.



Shark speed > Frog speed Jiriya sure is gonna have a difficult time trying to land a hit on Kisame underwater if he can.



> Regardless Both start off in Base. underworld swamp or Toad esophagousus Takes the victory. JMan wins 7/10.



Kisame own water source trumps both of those techniques.


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 28, 2013)

Joker J said:


> No beast summon chakra is a close to a person chakra with their own chakra source combined with the 2nd to the strongest of bijuus chakra sources or aka a Jin again Bee own chakra + 8 tail Bijuu chakra = 8 tail jin and Kisame absorbed almost all of that chakra leaving him collapsed on the floor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Boss summons have at least jounin level chakra. 

JMan has 2 toads on his shoulder. 1 Boss with 2 others boss size toads. It's not about them defeating Kisame it's about helping Jaraiya escape the dome which is very possible with so much support.

When Petra grabbed Naruto he was in Sm and he sucked his chakra to the point naruto couldn't move. Naruto gathered natural energy and went into SM again, Preta continued to absorb his chars and turned into stone. What's the difference of Kisame making contact wit Jaraiya and continuously absorb his chakra he's gonna turn to stone.

With 3Bosss summons and 2 Sage Frogs How isn't Kisame gonna have his hands full with so many opponents? Jman can also bring Kisame into 7 Frog stomache like he did Pein's summoning body.

Base Kisame is gonna get trumped by Jaraiya's hair, hair needles , Fire Jutsu. Getting crushed by a toad wouldn't be  much fun. Plus he has no counter to his toad stomache. Jaraiya plus his Acce first no SM needed...I honestly say if Jman goes SM or uses vast summons Kisame will summon his dome or a water field. Jman still can escape


----------



## Joker J (May 28, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> Boss summons have at least jounin level chakra.



Ok what is that amount of chakra supposed to do compared to a bijuu?



> JMan has 2 toads on his shoulder. 1 Boss with 2 others boss size toads. It's not about them defeating Kisame it's about helping Jaraiya escape the dome which is very possible with so much support.



Kisame size and speed underwater is not gonna be surrounded so easily and let jiriaya escape from the water dome as long as Kisame stays near Jiriaya, he will always be in the center of the dome. How what are they going to do to help him escape?



> When Petra grabbed Naruto he was in Sm and he sucked his chakra to the point naruto couldn't move. Naruto gathered natural energy and went into SM again, Preta continued to absorb his chars and turned into stone. What's the difference of Kisame making contact wit Jaraiya and continuously absorb his chakra he's gonna turn to stone.



I'll explain it to you again like everybody else did, First I will explain Naruto situation then I will explain why Naruto and preta situation won't work with Kisame and Jiraiaya situation clearly.

*Naruto/Preta*- Why Preta turned into stone.

Preta has to take Naruto alive not kill.
Naruto and Preta is standing on land.
Preta restrained Naruto long enough allowing Naruto to stay completely still to gather "*Raw Natural Energy*" not balanced sage chakra like preta did multiple times and stayed fine.
Preta absorbed "*Raw Natural Energy*" to the point it surpassed the balance chakra he has been absorbing that turned him into a frog the reason why Naruto converted from SM to regular and Preta was still fine because he was absorbing balanced chakra.
Look at this scan. 
The right pie graph is what Preta had when he was just absorbing Naruto balance chakra, When Naruto started gathering raw natural energy that was unbalanced and went past his physical and spiritual energy, it was being  absorbed by preta  all that raw natural energy finally surpassed Preta right pie graph and then turned into the left Pie graph. Naruto didn't bother to try to balance the natural energy because he knew it would just go straight to preta in a second.

*Jiriaya/Kisame*- Why Kisame won't be turned into stone.

Kisame doesn't have to take Juriaya alive, he can kill him instead of just continuously absorbing his chakra until Jiriaya is at the point of being unable to defend himself.
Jiraya wanting to go SM means he will have to summon his frogs for cover and doing that will make Kisame bust out dome and fuse with Samehada then they will just be underwater, with no air to breathe, Jiriaya will be forced to take refuge inside one of his Boss summons mouth to have the time to turn into SM.
Once Jiraiay activates sage mode and have ma and pa on his shoulders, he will still have to exit his summon mouth right back into the water still with no oxygen in order to even attempt to fight Kisame.
*Now that we covered the the big difference in the battle situation on to the absorbing and stone blahs.*
Underwater once Kisame absorbs Jiriaya SM chakra *(look at the right Pie Graph again)*  Kisame chakra will be like that, the Physical and spiritual energy/Chakra Kisame absorbs will add onto his already large chakra source and that will outweigh the Natural energy that was balanced in Jiriaya keeping his SM up.
Saying that Kisamehada will be perfectly fine with more chakra to waste and Jiriya will be out of Sage mode, Ma and Pa will have to stay still still underwater (if that's even possible) to gather raw natural energy for Jiriaya to balance the chakra and Jiriaya never could balance the chakra properly, that's why his appearance looks like this, besides Jiriya won't have enough chakra left or be able to defend himself after the first absorption.
Ma and Pa won't be able to continuously gather raw natural energy to put into Jiraiaya with the idea that Kisame will absorb it, it will put Jiriaya in to much danger considering he's not being restrained for a long period time and Kisame actually has physical attacks to kill Jiriaya instead of just going to him to touch him. it's way too risky for Jiriaya and that's a horrible plan.
It was only a good plan for Naruto cuz he was allowed to stay still and he knew he wasn't going to die.

With that that I hope you can see why Kisame won't be turned into stone



> With 3Bosss summons and 2 Sage Frogs How isn't Kisame gonna have his hands full with so many opponents? Jman can also bring Kisame into 7 Frog stomache like he did Pein's summoning body.



summoning 3 boss summons... great more chakra for Kisamehada. The frogs will be so crowded close to each other and trying to attack such a small fast target will be more trouble for them instead of Kisame, their large bodies will easily allow Kisame to swiftly get behind or in front, anywhere really just to make simple physical contact to absorb the boss summon chakra till they collapse or simply just die from 0 chakra. The frogs stomachs won't be able to contain the amount of water Kisame is able to produce and sharks with razor sharp teeth. 



> Base Kisame is gonna get trumped by Jaraiya's hair, hair needles , Fire Jutsu. Getting crushed by a toad wouldn't be  much fun. Plus he has no counter to his toad stomache. Jaraiya plus his Acce first no SM needed...I honestly say if Jman goes SM or uses vast summons Kisame will summon his dome or a water field. Jman still can escape



Base Kisame defenses against Jiraiya hair/ needles.
Samehada, Lake

Samehada is large enough to protect Kisame's body and Jiriaya attempting to trap Kisame with his hair remember that Jiriya hair is circulating with chakra when using that jutsu and can be absorbed by Samehada simply turning it back to regular hair due to the chakra not being channeled anymore and since the hair is connect to Jiriaya body Kisame ill most likey use that as a link to Jiriaya main chakra source and still more chakra from there like he did to Aoba even with Samehada.

Kisame suiton > Jiraiya Katon

With lake  frog landing on top of Kisame will not inflict  a killing blow or crippling injury, Kisame can always heal. The frog stomach will be burst out or eaten by Kisame using his large water source inside or his sharks.

Kisame abilities counters Jiriaya abilities.


----------



## Baroxio (May 28, 2013)

Thank you for taking the time to write that out Joker J. 

+reps


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 28, 2013)

Just out of interest where is everyone getting the whole "chakra from hair is absorbed"?

Samehada can't absorb ninjutsu (as it showed when it could only deflect the Katon not absorb it). I was under the impression it only absorbs pure chakra (Jin cloaks for example, or the actual chakra from a touch, which is what makes him perfect to hunt Jins).


----------



## Baroxio (May 28, 2013)

I believe the idea stems from Samehada absorbing the Raiton from Killer Bee's sword.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 28, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> I believe the idea stems from Samehada absorbing the Raiton from Killer Bee's sword.



That's a fair point and I forgot about that but wasn't the Raiton still a cloak of chakra?


----------



## Joker J (May 28, 2013)

I got it from this


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 28, 2013)

Joker J said:


> I got it from this



But he's sending chakra down the string INTO his opponent.
Kisame of course could take advantage of that.

Jaraiya is simply using chakra make his hair animate and garden like steel. Of Kisame is captured its over for him. His Hair was able to strangle and dispell Pein's Crab summon and crabs have a hard shell to begin with....He can also fill Kisame with hole regardless if Samehade was to bite unto his hair the Jutsus is quick and he would have time.


Somebody also mention Kisame busting out of the Toad esophagus by summoning a bunch of water. Once inside the toad stomache it attacks you Kisame won't have time to form hand seals he'll be on the run and deflecting the toads flesh eating wall that will be acting him..This is canon I don't see what's debatable about Kisame being trumped by Jman even before Sm. Itachi had to use a M.S jutsu to escape. Water sharks aren't ripping their way out.


----------



## Jad (May 28, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> But he's sending chakra down the string INTO his opponent.
> Kisame of course could take advantage of that.
> 
> Jaraiya is simply using chakra make his hair animate and garden like steel. Of Kisame is captured its over for him. His Hair was able to strangle and dispell Pein's Crab summon and crabs have a hard shell to begin with....He can also fill Kisame with hole regardless if Samehade was to bite unto his hair the Jutsus is quick and he would have time.
> ...



Toad Esophagus replaces it's environment (walls, floor) etc to that of the Toad. That technique has only ever worked in an enclosed environment, I don't see it working in an open environment. Provide me the feats it works in an open environment than we can talk.


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 29, 2013)

Jad said:


> Toad Esophagus replaces it's environment (walls, floor) etc to that of the Toad. That technique has only ever worked in an enclosed environment, I don't see it working in an open environment. Provide me the feats it works in an open environment than we can talk.



True I didn't say it can work in an open field but they are in a forest. Who's to say Jman couldn't collapse a few trees or in a tight space that the stomache wouldst form to trap Kisame.

However when used as seen in manga Kisame gets digested by a Toad.


----------



## joshhookway (May 29, 2013)

Jiraiya can use toads since Kisame can't really do much in the water other than drain chakra. Jiraiya can instantly trap Kisame with Yomi Numa.


----------



## Baroxio (May 29, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> Somebody also mention Kisame busting out of the Toad esophagus by summoning a bunch of water. Once inside the toad stomache it attacks you Kisame won't have time to form hand seals he'll be on the run and deflecting the toads flesh eating wall that will be acting him..This is canon I don't see what's debatable about Kisame being trumped by Jman even before Sm. Itachi had to use a M.S jutsu to escape. Water sharks aren't ripping their way out.



If time to form Hand seals is a problem, why can't he just do what he did right before his death? That is, cover himself inside a Water Prison and do whatever handseals he needs to do inside of it?

Remember, his Water Prison was so strong Gai's Punch couldn't penetrate it, so I doubt the walls of meat in Jiraiya's toad esophagus would be able to do much more.

From there, he summons 1000 sharks to eat up the "walls of meat." That's somewhat feasible, yes?



joshhookway said:


> Jiraiya can use toads since Kisame can't really do much in the water other than drain chakra. Jiraiya can instantly trap Kisame with Yomi Numa.



Once more, Yomi Numa isn't effective when your opponent can swim through solid ground like Kisame can.

And once Jiraiya's Toads are "shaved" of their chakra they aren't going to be much help. Remember that a single shave took off 6 or more chakra tails from Killer Bee. I *sincerely *doubt that *any *summon has even _half _that amount.


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 29, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> If time to form Hand seals is a problem, why can't he just do what he did right before his death? That is, cover himself inside a Water Prison and do whatever handseals he needs to do inside of it?
> 
> Remember, his Water Prison was so strong Gai's Punch couldn't penetrate it, so I doubt the walls of meat in Jiraiya's toad esophagus would be able to do much more.
> 
> ...



Now we are coming up with cop-outs for Kisame. I love him to especially since I like the most village . But that's far outta Character for Kisame. And Imagine the 6X6 water sphere surrounded by a giant Fire breathing's toad inside......Much more pressure is than a punch from Gai.

Also where would millions of gallons of water go if the jutsu can still back him into a cover and attack regardless of him spewing up water trying to burs out the Jutsu??? Lol see its just a lil too far fetch.

Did I mention Jman wins base proven canon already.


----------



## Baroxio (May 29, 2013)

It wasn't out of character at all. When he needed more time to commit his suicide while surrounded by the enemy, he trapped himself in a Water Prison to give himself that extra time. And Gai was strong enough to punch through walls in Part 1, and apparently thought he could destroy Giant ass rocks with his Base fists in Part 2 (Rescue Gaara arc--he only failed because the barrier was still in place).

Here, Kisame won't even need extra time, he can cast the Senjikizame as Jiraiya casts his Toad Esophagus.

You really have to enlighten me on how thousands of meat-eating sharks can lose to walls of meat. 

I also don't know why you are trying to downplay it by calling it just "water" when in fact it's actually 1000 Sharks, some of which are legitimately real.

Still don't see what Jiraiya does against Daikodan though.


----------



## betterthanu33 (May 29, 2013)

I find it funny when idiots refer to kisame and itachi saying they werent as strong. They were sent there to capture a bijuu and didnt want to waste time fighting someone like him. They came to do onw thing only.

In regards to jiraiya and kisame it would be close. But kisame fuse....GG...no one stops a shark in a water dome that absorbs all of someones chakra  at a touch. Jiraiya is powerless to react as all of his attacks would be absorbed.

Jiraiya is one strong fucker but like i said he cant do anythinn to a water dome kisamehada.  I give this to kisame 7/10...he didnt get the name tailess tailed beast or some shit if he wasnt strong


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 30, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> It wasn't out of character at all. When he needed more time to commit his suicide while surrounded by the enemy, he trapped himself in a Water Prison to give himself that extra time. And Gai was strong enough to punch through walls in Part 1, and apparently thought he could destroy Giant ass rocks with his Base fists in Part 2 (Rescue Gaara arc--he only failed because the barrier was still in place).
> 
> Here, Kisame won't even need extra time, he can cast the Senjikizame as Jiraiya casts his Toad Esophagus.
> 
> ...



Are you agreeing that Kisame loses this fight? Because if he uses water prison and lets the sharks eat him he loses...You kinda made my point you see Kisame won't use water prisim and it's too much a stretch to believe that Jutsus can save him from the esophagus......O also Gai punches through rocks and boulders but not steel which is what he referred to the water prison as.


I'm not downplaying Kisame I love mist ninja and suiton jutsu, So Kisame is all I have to flaunt around when it comes to that...I've made sufficient arguments and the 
manga part 1 shows Jaraiya's superiority to Kisame. Shyt, Kisame knows this bit doesn't believe that he m Itachi woul be pawned

You guys are Over rating Kisame compared to Jaraiya a ninja who is skilled enough and has the Jutsus to defeat him before He uses his dome jutsu. It would be safe to say Kisame would only use that Jutsu if his opponent mostly JIN's has tons o Chaka and he needs to wear them out. His 1000 sharks very strong he can't make that without a decent water source..He won't be able to use in toads stomache, then you guys go back to summoning water , the stomache still grabs and digest Kisame.

The 1000 sharks are Water dude. Kisame can summon both real an suiton Sharks...However that Jutsus is they are suitons. So Sharks eating the toads belly from inside out possible but look back on how that Jutsu works.. It attacks anything foreign with tentacle strings and by enclosing the space...A Shark can't eat his way out with no where to move or while captured.

You can't shut down Jmans winning arguments being shut down by Sharks eating a  jutsu that has never been countered or broken out of. Except for Ameratsu.


----------



## Joker J (May 30, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> But he's sending chakra down the string INTO his opponent.
> Kisame of course could take advantage of that.



With Samehada it doesn't need to go inside Kisame body, the chakra channeling through Aoba string is similar o Jiriaya channeling chakra through his hair strings to do the jutsu is the same because both have chakra channeling through the strings.



> Jaraiya is simply using chakra make his hair animate and garden like steel. Of Kisame is captured its over for him. His Hair was able to strangle and dispell Pein's Crab summon and crabs have a hard shell to begin with....He can also fill Kisame with hole regardless if Samehade was to bite unto his hair the Jutsus is quick and he would have time.




Samehada will have no problem as a sword tanking these hair needles and so as Kisame both took much worse damage and both can regen.

That crab was a big slow easy target for Jiraiya hair, Kisame will be more agile not to get caught by the travel speed of Jiraiya hair, Kisame reacted to faster projectiles and with the help of Samehada he will be able to cut through Jiraiya hair, as soon as he makes contact Kisame will absorb the chakra out of the hair at the same time cutting it, kinda like how Neji was cutting the uncuttable spider webs.

Kisame also already ripped through metal before with barely any strength left in him.

Somebody also mention Kisame busting out of the Toad esophagus by summoning a bunch of water. Once inside the toad stomache it attacks you Kisame won't have time to form hand seals he'll be on the run and deflecting the toads flesh eating wall that will be acting him..This is canon I don't see what's debatable about Kisame being trumped by Jman even before Sm. Itachi had to use a M.S jutsu to escape. Water sharks aren't ripping their way out.[/QUOTE]

One arm/hand seals sure is difficult huh.... The walls are flesh, why wouldn't 1000 sharks full of razor teeth rip through?


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 30, 2013)

Joker J said:


> With Samehada it doesn't need to go inside Kisame body, the chakra channeling through Aoba string is similar o Jiriaya channeling chakra through his hair strings to do the jutsu is the same because both have chakra channeling through the strings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One arm/hand seals sure is difficult huh.... The walls are flesh, why wouldn't 1000 sharks full of razor teeth rip through?[/QUOTE]

Yes Sameheda eats chakra and can absorb chakra from ppl by latching it's jaws on to them.
But yea say the crab was slow and Jaraiya's hair isn't either.This scan disagrees


----------



## Kind of a big deal (May 30, 2013)

The toad esophagus thing, does that mean he's literally inside a toad? Or is it at least a living part of some frog?
If so, Kisame can just drain it's chakra either by forcing Samehada to drain it, or perhaps doing it himself if he fuses with his sword, and kill the toad by chakra depletion. Jiraiya will likely de-summon before one of his toads get killed.
If it's not, and it's merely a jutsu, Samehada or Daikodan would be all he needs to escape, by taking out chakra and reducing it to lumps of meat that Jiraiya has no control over.

Not that it's likely for Jiraiya to use this jutsu anyway considering the location and the fact that Kisame always makes massive amounts of water anyway.


----------



## Rain (May 30, 2013)

kisame babyshakes lol.


----------



## Joker J (May 30, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> Yes Sameheda eats chakra and can absorb chakra from ppl by latching it's jaws on to them.]



Samehada doesn't have to latch on to them.



> But yea say the crab was slow and Jaraiya's hair isn't either.This scan disagrees . wood that is made to hold down bijuus and jins. Kisame still very weaken right before he broke out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 30, 2013)

Joker J said:


> Samehada doesn't have to latch on to them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yamato Wood jutsu are the worst seen in the series. He says it himself and we seen it for ourselves his wood style is a sliver of a hose compared to the 1st hokage. 

Thing is I love Kisame but I'm not bias when I rationalize which ninja can defeat which an how the battle will probably go. Obviously many ppl are bias in these threads leaning towards hype or most common BS arguments.....Like 1000 shark counter to stomache because Kisame will have all thy water to use or simply any time to use jutsu cause the stomache won't snatch him up and digest his ass.

You mean Kisame great speed feat of dodging a pencil because yes that pencil was so fast and Kisame just dodges anything slower than that super fast pencil...It was a blindside attack not some super speed pencil. How about you pay attention to what your reading and not hype up such a non feat.

Kisame also seems godly now according to you Joker J since he ,can bust out of Wood Jutsus that were made to hold Bijuu down..

If all you can do is come up with BS arguments and faulty knowledge that can't or won't be proven through manga knowledge, like something other Ameratsu breaking out of the toad stomache.. Or 3 big ass summons can't escape a water done that they probably take up 1/4 it's capacity can't help Jman escape. You are being extremely bias cause it's evident Kisame loses to Jman. Ppl don't want to admit this probably because he beat KB and Jman can't .. But that logic in fighting doesn't work Out all the time.


----------



## Joker J (May 31, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> Yamato Wood jutsu are the worst seen in the series. He says it himself and we seen it for ourselves his wood style is a sliver of a hose compared to the 1st hokage.



There are only two wood justsu users on the whole manga, 1st Hokage and Yamato, Yamato wood jutsu is still very good.



> Thing is I love Kisame but I'm not bias when I rationalize which ninja can defeat which an how the battle will probably go. Obviously many ppl are bias in these threads leaning towards hype or most common BS arguments.....Like 1000 shark counter to stomache because Kisame will have all thy water to use or simply any time to use jutsu cause the stomache won't snatch him up and digest his ass.



Everyone is not joining your side of the argument cu you're wrong and bias. The stomach won't catch Kisame cause Kisame has jutsus to counter that bursting the place open with one hand seal.



> You mean Kisame great speed feat of dodging a pencil because yes that pencil was so fast and Kisame just dodges anything slower than that super fast pencil...It was a blindside attack not some super speed pencil. How about you pay attention to what your reading and not hype up such a non feat.



Again showing how much you don't know. Kisame evaded faster opponent while attacking them making the faster opponent having to evade him.  Calling a thrown ration pencil a non super speed pencil.... you have come down lower to this now?



> Kisame also seems godly now according to you Joker J since he ,can bust out of Wood Jutsus that were made to hold Bijuu down..



Did you see the attack Kisame took before breaking out and biting his tongue losing lots of blood. Yamato wood was suppressing chakra. not saying he's godly im tlking about his strength feat.



> If all you can do is come up with BS arguments and faulty knowledge that can't or won't be proven through manga knowledge, like something other Ameratsu breaking out of the toad stomache.. Or 3 big ass summons can't escape a water done that they probably take up 1/4 it's capacity can't help Jman escape. You are being extremely bias cause it's evident Kisame loses to Jman. Ppl don't want to admit this probably because he beat KB and Jman can't .. But that logic in fighting doesn't work Out all the time.



Tell me my BS arguments again and show me how im wrong in those arguments. I never said 3 boss summons can't escape the water dome. Everything you said were countered by me and others. You sure didn't talk about Kisame turning into a stone again.

Coming from a guy that said base Jiraiya defeated Kisame is canon....  This guy


----------

