# Things that have been retconned



## Troyse22 (Aug 22, 2017)

This is a discussion for everyone on the NBD to point out things in detail things that have been retconned/changed etc in the manga that can't seem to get their point across.

There have been multiple retcons from P1 and even some Uchiha retcons (will be my first one that I point out btw). But quite a few people on these forums will NOT accept the fact that something has changed and is outdated.

First, the ability to use Susanoo while the user does not have their Mangekyo activated. If this only occurred with Itachi, you could write it off as some mistake on Kishimoto's part, but this also happened LATER in the War Arc with Madara, who is seen escaping the Sand Mausoleum with Susanoo without eyes. 

*The conclusion is clear, Uchiha's possess the ability to use Susanoo without activating their MS*, but they still need to have unlocked MS prior to using Susanoo. In case my point isn't clear, one can't activate Susanoo prior to unlocking the Mangekyo, but after that it appears as though they can activate it at will without using Mangekyo OR EVEN SHARINGAN.

@Hussain I wanted to talk about the Tobirama vs Kin and Gin, but i'm not aware of whether or not Tobirama was intended to have Hiraishin prior to their defeating of him, I saw you talk about it in another thread.


Another is one you guys have been waiting for from me, Kisame's admission of inferiority to Jiraiya, and the Sannin in general in P1.

It is fair to disregard (almost) everything regarding the confrontation between Jiraiya, Kisame and Itachi. Itachi states him and Jiraiya would kill each other at best, if we consider the abilities Itachi showed in P2, the battle is handily Itachi's, even if we include Jiraiya's SM. Later feats prove Itachi>Jiraiya. We've seen both fighting at full capacity with each a LOT of panel time, and it's clear, *Itachi is superior to Jiraiya* 


Now onto Kisame's admission of inferiority, he states that he wouldn't be able to take on Jiraiya, "...but you (Itachi)". But Kisame assessment of Jiraiya was based purely off of hype, and not of actual analysis and comparison of abilities, making his statement, even from P1 relatively baseless, all we know for sure is Sannin hype exceeded Kisame's from P1. 

P2 then comes and we see Kisame get his fair share of respect, while the Sannin are quickly becoming increasingly irrelevant and their hype is consistently proven to be all talk, Kisame actually has feats backing up his hype, fighting at high capacity at 30% of his chakra reserves. He also took on an opponent arguably superior to Pein (albeit both were restricted, Kisame much more heavily than Bee though). Kisame was injured in that battle and there's no question, but the moment he got serious Bee couldn't even tag him. Kisame mid diffing V2 Killer Bee is not a feat a respectable debater one should sweep under the rug, this alone should be enough to put Kisame way above "Sannin level". 

We see Nagato go on to admit Kisame's reserves exceed even his own, this Nagato was able to fully control 2 Rinnegan which have proven to take up MASSIVE chakra reserves, this speaks volumes to where Kisame's chakra levels are at. *Kisame is better and stronger than Jiraiya in virtually every aspect*

*Kisame's later hype, portrayal and feats prove his P1 admission of inferiority is outdated nonsense, and shouldn't even be a topic of discussion in the NBD*

What are some of your guys' thoughts on mine here or some things people keep saying even though its been retconned and it just gets under your skin

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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 22, 2017)

ninja stealth

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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2017)

There are a lot of things that have indeed been retconned. However, Tobirama's defeat is NOT one of them. Kishi showed Tobirama's flashback with Kin/Gin when Danzo was about to die. After that, during Obito's attack on Konoha, Minato mentioned that Tobirama does have a S/T jutsu. So, Kishi planned to give him a S/T jutsu AT LEAST from that point.

However, Kishi brought Kin/Gin yet again on chapter 525 or around it, and stated that they have wiped the floor with Tobirama. At that point, Kishi have already told us that Tobirama has S/T jutsu & ET as well. If this were to be a retcon, he wouldn't have mentioned Tobirama's defeat yet again. Why would he do something like that if he is planning to retcon it? 

That's like having Kishi saying "Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage" after he was brought up as an ET, and then say "no he retconned that"!
It just does not make sense. If it was a retcon, he wouldn't have mentioned it again. It's that easy. 

Of course, same goes for Kisame. His inferiority has not been retconned either. You might have had a point had Kishi made Jiraiya lose to weaker Akatsuki members, but he had him fighting against the leader and had that leader admits Jiraiya's powers. You want it to be a retcon because you like Kisame. But it isn't.

Yes, Kisame showed more feats in Part 2, but so did Jiraiya. 
Based on your logic, Jiraiya's power was retconned as of part 2 as well and became stronger! 




> P2 then comes and we see Kisame get his fair share of respect, while the Sannin are quickly becoming increasingly irrelevant


This is pure rubbish. The Sannin have NEVER been irrelevant. They have always been brought up until the very last moments.

They were shown before Kisame, and they kept around (or at least their mention) much later than Kisame as well. Heck, 15 years later, and Oro still around in Mitsuki's One Shot, Salad's Gaiden, and Boruto's movie! Where is your Kisame?

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## Itachі (Aug 22, 2017)

You say a lot about Kisame's accomplishments but you can't say who'd win unless you do a direct comparison between the two. I don't agree that Jiraiya can take on Itachi & Kisame either, in my opinion he would lose against Itachi alone more times than not. However, I still think that Jiraiya is a powerful opponent and that he beats Kisame.

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## Serene Grace (Aug 22, 2017)

Kisame did well against Bee because he was the perfect counter to him, Bee was also restricted in that fight, _heavily_ restricted as he couldn't even use the ability that made him a perfect Jin being BM. Not to mention Bee had to protect fodder, of which Kisame took advantage of in that fight on two seperate occasions.

Also Kisame doesn't have superior potrayal nor feats to Jiraiya. I've destroyed that argument about 5× made by you and Saph.

I don't think that Jiraiya fodderizes him in one go, but he'd come out in most scenarios. Hell even in a scenario where Kisame starts in the middle of an ocean Jiraiya would still he able to compete thanks Gama hydruo, or hiding in the toad technique


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## Troyse22 (Aug 22, 2017)

Hussain said:


> There are a lot of things that have indeed been retconned. However, Tobirama's defeat is NOT one of them. Kishi showed Tobirama's flashback with Kin/Gin when Danzo was about to die. After that, during Obito's attack on Konoha, Minato mentioned that Tobirama does have a S/T jutsu. So, Kishi planned to give him a S/T jutsu AT LEAST from that point.
> 
> However, Kishi brought Kin/Gin yet again on chapter 525 or around it, and stated that they have wiped the floor with Tobirama. At that point, Kishi have already told us that Tobirama has S/T jutsu & ET as well. If this were to be a retcon, he wouldn't have mentioned Tobirama's defeat yet again. Why would he do something like that if he is planning to retcon it?



Interesting 



Hussain said:


> Of course, same goes for Kisame. His inferiority has not been retconned either. You might have had a point had Kishi made Jiraiya lose to weaker Akatsuki members, but he had him fighting against the leader and had that leader admits Jiraiya's powers



Doesn't matter that Jiraiya fought against Pein, he got negged by Pein not even using Deva's abilities. That's like saying the fodder chunin who tried to stop Pein themselves are Pein level because they fought him. It's pure nonsense.



Hussain said:


> Yes, Kisame showed more feats in Part 2, but so did Jiraiya.
> Based on your logic, Jiraiya's power was retconned as of part 2 as well and became stronger!



Kisame's boost in power was much, MUCH bigger than Jiraiya's.

You know better than this Hussain.



Hussain said:


> This is pure rubbish. The Sannin have NEVER been irrelevant. They have always been brought up until the very last moments.
> 
> They were shown before Kisame, and they kept around (or at least their mention) much later than Kisame as well. Heck, 15 years later, and Oro still around in Mitsuki's One Shot, Salad's Gaiden, and Boruto's movie! Where is your Kisame?



Not saying Kisame was more relevant than The Sannin in P1, that's bullshit. In P2 however, he was one of the last standing Akatsuki and one of the most relevant Shinobi pre-war arc. Oro was relevant in the War only due to his ET, he was a literal nonfactor outside of that. It was not his own power.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame's boost in power was much, MUCH bigger than Jiraiya's.


Not it wasn't. Kisame can use large scale jutsu from the start. His sword can absorb chakra from the start as well (when he absorbed Naruto's chakra for example)

Heck, his only advantage (absorbing chakra) will be deadly for him against Jiraiya as that will turn him into a stone. 
(even though Jiraiya does not need SM against him of course).

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## Serene Grace (Aug 22, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Doesn't matter that Jiraiya fought against Pein, he got negged by Pein not even using Deva's abilities. That's like saying the fodder chunin who tried to stop Pein themselves are Pein level because they fought him. It's pure nonsense.


No it's not. The fodder Chunnin were not hyped by both Pein and Obito, the former outight stating that he wouldn't have won had Jiraiya had full knowledge and the latter stating that he caused Pein some trouble. Lol and you try an tell me that's the same thing, come on son



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame's boost in power was much, MUCH bigger than Jiraiya's.


Based off what, lol? Jiraiya received SM, which far outclasses anything Kisame possess potrayal wise _and_ feat wise, and before you say "bu bu Jiraiya's SM sucks" what makes Jiraiya's SM special is that he ma and pa are all working as a trinity ultimately the other stronger, so essentially it's three SM users all put together as one, not to mention that it's indefinite as well.



Troyse22 said:


> War only due to his ET, he was a literal nonfactor outside of that. It was not his own power.


..what? is it not Oro who is controlling the ET's? By this logic is Samehada not Kisame's power since it absorbs the chakra itself, and the fact that its a completely different entity then Kisame? Lol of course not that makes no sense dude


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 22, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> First, the ability to use Susanoo while the user does not have their Mangekyo activated. If this only occurred with Itachi, you could write it off as some mistake on Kishimoto's part, but this also happened LATER in the War Arc with Madara, who is seen escaping the Sand Mausoleum with Susanoo without eyes.
> 
> *The conclusion is clear, Uchiha's possess the ability to use Susanoo without activating their MS*, but they still need to have unlocked MS prior to using Susanoo. In case my point isn't clear, one can't activate Susanoo prior to unlocking the Mangekyo, but after that it appears as though they can activate it at will without using Mangekyo OR EVEN SHARINGAN.



There was never anything to say that both MS need to be activated to use Susanoo, both jutsu needed to be mastered to obtain Susanoo. The MS only represents a change in chakra which can still occur if the user is blind.


> @Hussain I wanted to talk about the Tobirama vs Kin and Gin, but i'm not aware of whether or not Tobirama was intended to have Hiraishin prior to their defeating of him, I saw you talk about it in another thread.



He's just upset about the idea that Tobirama>non-Jinchuriki Minato.

It might've been planned seeing as Minato alluded to it.



> Another is one you guys have been waiting for from me, Kisame's admission of inferiority to Jiraiya, and the Sannin in general in P1.
> 
> It is fair to disregard (almost) everything regarding the confrontation between Jiraiya, Kisame and Itachi. Itachi states him and Jiraiya would kill each other at best, if we consider the abilities Itachi showed in P2, the battle is handily Itachi's, even if we include Jiraiya's SM. Later feats prove Itachi>Jiraiya. We've seen both fighting at full capacity with each a LOT of panel time, and it's clear, *Itachi is superior to Jiraiya*
> 
> ...



Jiraiya showed abilities that would allow him to hold his own against Itachi. He also showed abilities that destroy Kisame. Kisame's admission wasn't retconned.

Kisame was hyped as the tailless Bijuu, but even that was minor compared to the Sannin name. 



> P2 then comes and we see Kisame get his fair share of respect, while the Sannin are quickly becoming increasingly irrelevant and their hype is consistently proven to be all talk, Kisame actually has feats backing up his hype, fighting at high capacity at 30% of his chakra reserves. He also took on an opponent arguably superior to Pein (albeit both were restricted, Kisame much more heavily than Bee though). Kisame was injured in that battle and there's no question, but the moment he got serious Bee couldn't even tag him. Kisame mid diffing V2 Killer Bee is not a feat a respectable debater one should sweep under the rug, this alone should be enough to put Kisame way above "Sannin level".



Kisame never fought anyone close to Pain's power. Jiraiya did and in a certain circumstance could've won. Kisame in the same scenario would lose like 99.9% of characters in the manga with no chance of winning at all.


> We see Nagato go on to admit Kisame's reserves exceed even his own, this Nagato was able to fully control 2 Rinnegan which have proven to take up MASSIVE chakra reserves, this speaks volumes to where Kisame's chakra levels are at. *Kisame is better and stronger than Jiraiya in virtually every aspect*



He just said Kisame's chakra reserves exceed his own, that's it. Though, this is probably your only valid example of a retcon which you didn't address. Kishimoto probably didn't even know the Rinnegan's abilities back then including the fact that Preta is basically a better Samehada without limits minus fusion. Basically with Preta providing the same effect, this could be void. Though, then again Kisame likely fought more people in person and Preta Path's absorption obviously didn't transfer back to Nagato.



> *Kisame's later hype, portrayal and feats prove his P1 admission of inferiority is outdated nonsense, and shouldn't even be a topic of discussion in the NBD*



It sounds more like you want to beef up Kisame without having a solid case. Though, this is better than Hussain acting triggered when he's in a thread that has a character that's owned Minato in some shape or form.

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## Ultrafragor (Aug 22, 2017)

Hyuuga being exceptional in any way.

Lol, when Konoha was getting blown up by Pain and they just shut the gates to the Hyuuga compound and turned their music up real loud to drown out the other villagers screaming and dying.

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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 22, 2017)

The concept of this thread is great but your post is riddled with baseless assumptions and clear bias towards Kisame and against the Sannin so the thread will most likely become a discussion revolving around people strongly disagreeing with your opinions rather than stating what they believe has been retconned. Or at least, that's what I think.

Also, regarding the MS thing. Uchiha do need to use their MS to use Susanoo, Madara could do that because he's the king of asspulls. So that doesn't really count at all.

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## Monty Burns (Aug 22, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Doesn't matter that Jiraiya fought against Pein, he got negged by Pein not even using Deva's abilities. That's like saying the fodder chunin who tried to stop Pein themselves are Pein level because they fought him. It's pure nonsense.


Jiraiya defeated 4 Paths with zero knowledge. Nagato stated he wouldn't have won if Jiraiya had full knowledge. Obito hyped him too. The fodder Chunin couldn't do jack against any of the Paths and weren't hyped to have defeated Pain at all. 



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame's boost in power was much, MUCH bigger than Jiraiya's.
> 
> You know better than this Hussain.


Jiraiya showed Sage mode (and all of its abilities) + abilities to ragdoll Bijuu sized summons + great stealth tactics. That's enough to turn the tables against many.



Troyse22 said:


> Not saying Kisame was more relevant than The Sannin in P1, that's bullshit. In P2 however, he was one of the last standing Akatsuki and one of the most relevant Shinobi pre-war arc. Oro was relevant in the War only due to his ET, he was a literal nonfactor outside of that. It was not his own power.


Sannin have been relevant in P1 and P2. Additionally like Hussain said, Oro is still relevant after the war.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 22, 2017)

Jesus lawd Troy getting rekted in his own thread

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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 22, 2017)

Everything about Uchiha via Sasuke's new motivations..

Sasuke is the main antagonist and the source of naruto's motivations via "breaking the chaing of hatred" .. So thats why Author has to keep Sasuke's antagonist role active even after killing his bro.. 

Thas why Itachi's char is retconned heavily and that retcon effects many people like sasuke, orochimaru, kakashi, obito, hokages


Uchiha Vs Senju / Dark vs Light Retcon.... The main source of the motivations in this series was the ninja way.. Not some clans and idealogy fights. But those are needed to create something between with "never giving uo naruto" and "rebelious crazy eye sasuke".

So thats why Hashirama, Tobirama retconned via Madara (actually via Naruto Vs Sasuke) and that retcon effected Orochimaru, Minatoi Hiruzen, Naruto, Sasuke, Madara, and most of the narutoverse.

These are the most wildest retcons but also there is to many retcons or asspull or p-up or PIS or CIS had been around.


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## LostSelf (Aug 22, 2017)

Katsuyu was rectonned.

She was a boss summon in part 1. In part two she became a god slayer almost as powerful as the alpowerful Toon "GG" Deva.

Giovanni was also retconned. He was supposed to be a mafia leader. But now he's the strongest boss there is. The ruler of the Pokemon universe that is never caught. Unlike the other gang bosses wanabbes.

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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 22, 2017)

genjutsu ninjutsu & taijutsu being the foundational triad of shinobi in general

but nin & tai proved relevant while  gen was reserved for hype, then in part 2, was exclusively a cheap plot device.
and overall fuuinjutsu trumped all 3 of them combined,  turning out to be the very fabric of the narutoverse itself


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## The_Conqueror (Aug 22, 2017)

Izanagi needing Hashirama cells
Power of Hashirama 

If some character was retconeed the author would have put a lot of effort showing that. "God of shinobi" "power which was near to sage of six paths" 

Kisame nothing. His perfomace comes comes up having being fueled with hachibis chakra bee restricted to not going BM 
Second time against Gai had bijju chakra location advantage yet lost against gai who was aiming to capture kisame 

Kisame had chakra but Nagato has obviously shown better chalra control , controlling his tramsplanted eyes to perfection and his overall haul is better than kisame


Jiraiya could have beaten pain under certain circumstances who was the leader, was alone sufficient to guard Naruto from akatsuki.
Tsunade had one of the best performaces against Madara I'm both support And combat she was irreplaceable 
Orochimaru was the one who bought the Edo kages so Sanin were never irrelevant in Naruto series

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## Ultrafragor (Aug 22, 2017)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> genjutsu ninjutsu & taijutsu being the foundational triad of shinobi in general
> 
> but nin & tai proved relevant while  gen was reserved for hype, then in part 2, was exclusively a cheap plot device.
> and overall fuuinjutsu trumped all 3 of them combined,  turning out to be the very fabric of the narutoverse itself



He didn't put much effort into people breaking or surviving genjutsu. Kurenai broke out of a sharingan based genjutsu pretty easily, but past that genjutsu has pretty much been a game over for whoever got caught.

As if there are no conceivable ways to undo someone else's mental energy in your body. Oh wait, there is and it's super easy. Stop your chakra flow then restart it. 

Too bad everyone forgot about that as soon as it was said.


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## Monty Burns (Aug 22, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Kisame had chakra but Nagato has obviously shown better chalra control , controlling his tramsplanted eyes to perfection and his overall haul is better than kisame


Kisame still solos him though.

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## The_Conqueror (Aug 22, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> Kisame still solos him though.


Kisame>Rinne Obito>Nagato 
I know that

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## theRonin (Aug 22, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It might've been planned seeing as Minato alluded to it.


Uh. When did this happen?


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## Hi no Ishi (Aug 22, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> He also took on an opponent arguably superior to Pein (albeit both were restricted, Kisame much more heavily than Bee though). Kisame was injured in that battle and there's no question, but the moment he got serious Bee couldn't even tag him. Kisame mid diffing V2 Killer Bee is not a feat a respectable debater one should sweep under the rug, this alone should be enough to put Kisame way above "Sannin level".


Kisame had hostages that he attacked repeatedly, Had knowledge, and was operating on a boatload of Biju chakra.
No one in their right mind thinks "I have to stop draining him before he dies" is equalivalent let alone much worse
Hostages drasticly change every situation in every form of media or real lif for that matter, so how can you say it's not a huge disadvantage?

Biju chakra amps the he'll out of every char in the series. Hell Kisame even said absorbing chakra makes him stronger.
But to you he is the one creature in the manga who's performance was unaffected by it?
Both against B and against Gai.

That smells like bias.


Troyse22 said:


> We see Nagato go on to admit Kisame's reserves exceed even his own, this Nagato was able to fully control 2 Rinnegan which have proven to take up MASSIVE chakra reserves, this speaks volumes to where Kisame's chakra levels are at. *Kisame is better and stronger than Jiraiya in virtually every aspect*


Part one Naruto has more chakra than most shinobi is he even kage level? No?then your point is lost.

Also Kisame has never shown larger more devastating attacks than Jiraiya.
He has nowhere close to the same versatility in terms of seals, barriers, damage types, or sneaking.
He can't escape as easily.
He has worse speed feats and is maybe~ SM Jiraya in physical strength.
Water does not put out oil fires.
Kisame has worse summons as well.

How do you look at that and say _*Kisame is better and stronger than Jiraiya in virtually every aspect?*_

What is he actually better at?


Troyse22 said:


> It is fair to disregard (almost) everything regarding the confrontation between Jiraiya, Kisame and Itachi.


Is it fair to disregard the Akatsuki leaders saying Jiraiya gets the highest praise, or them being shocked at how much trouble he gave the "invincible" Pain?
Or him beating Konan and  killing 4 pains no knowledge on the enemies turf? While they had near full knowledge on Jiraiya?

Is it fair to make up Genjutsu defense for Kisame?
Or say him getting blitzed by KCM Naruto does not count?
Or ignore his Biju chakra amps?
Is it bias?


Troyse22 said:


> P2 then comes and we see Kisame get his fair share of respect, while the Sannin are quickly becoming increasingly irrelevant and their hype is consistently proven to be all talk, Kisame actually has feats backing up his hype, fighting at high capacity at 30% of his chakra reserves



How many chapters is Kisame mentioned in after his death? 1
How many is Jiraiya? A bunch.

They wanted Jiraiya as Hokage when the third died and when Tsunade went into a coma, (parts 1 and 2) while Gai who wrecked your boy twice, wasn't even third in line for the job. Then Kabuto wanted to resurrect him which pissed Obito off
Then Obito admitted Jiraiya's ideology was the winner once he was defeated.

Orochimaru came back and changed the course of the war, got a new body and became the 3rd strongest dude alive at EoS.
Tsunade was a major player throughout the war, saving the Kage repeatedly, making Madara admit her skills, healing the Alliance, etc.
But the Sannin have no feats?
Or is this bias?

How many chapters was Kisame even in?

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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 22, 2017)

Welll..Rather than be the 10th person to address troys argument regarding kisames ...Retcons...

Ill just stick to the thread question and post what i believe has been mostly retconned.

Izanagi needing hashis cells...Madara couldnt have prepped it prior to his battle with hashi had that been the case. At best you could make the argument hashis cells make the tech better or easier to control? Hence why danzo used em as a crutch.
Hiruzen being the "God of shinobi" when almost anyone else who has EVER worn a kage hat would kick his ass...Not to mention legit all 3 of his pupils...And the pupils of his pupils VERY quickly as well...
The sage making the moon and taming the juubi *solo*...Hamura was added in later on and a load of other stuff.
Naruto being an underdog 
Hand seals for the most part  Basically dropped at the first sign of trouble...I feel like kishi only uses em half the time to make a character look cooler while posing...
Clones being a strenuous technique or even moderately difficult whatsoever for that matter...Back in the day the entire cast, legit EVERYONE who saw naruto use KBs was flabbergasted that he could pull it off at his age, everyone opraised  the kid for picking up a damn JONIN LEVEL TECH, and that was due to three massive advantages he had over the rest of the shinobi world, 

He was an Ashura reincarnation
He was an Uzumaki
And he was the Jin of Kurama
Then cut to Borutos days...And we have Boruto making KBs like they are nothing...At 13...With a third of the gifts naruto has...And salt on the wound? ...When it took kiba years to learn to make 1...

Im sure there is more but id be here all day


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## Hi no Ishi (Aug 23, 2017)

The Hyuga were left behind during power creep.

The God of Shinobi title got weird

Hashi and Tobirama got powerful.

Kin and Gin's timeline makes no sense

Academy graduation and ages got screwed

Nagato's age got screwed up. 

When Jiraiya trained Minato is now ambiguous.

Tobirama having marks in Konoha got retconned.

Itachi was gonna kill the Jonin and capture Kakashi but was a good guy?

Kakashi had the MS the whole time?


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## Troyse22 (Aug 23, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Not it wasn't. Kisame can use large scale jutsu from the start.



What exactly is that based on? I don't recall Kisame using any significantly large techs until P2.


Hussain said:


> Heck, his only advantage (absorbing chakra) will be deadly for him against Jiraiya as that will turn him into a stone.
> (even though Jiraiya does not need SM against him of course).



Jiraiya will be drained totally before he gets even remotely close to turning Kisame to stone.

According to Fukasaku, absorbing in too much NE transforms your body to stone, but there's a catch, it needs to exceed your own base reserves. Not a problem for Kisame due to the stark difference in reserves.



Serene Grace said:


> No it's not. The fodder Chunnin were not hyped by both Pein and Obito, the former outight stating that he wouldn't have won had Jiraiya had full knowledge and the latter stating that he caused Pein some trouble. Lol and you try an tell me that's the same thing, come on son



At best Jiraiya would have escaped with full knowledge, since he would have had no reason to go back and face the paths.



Serene Grace said:


> Based off what, lol? Jiraiya received SM, which far outclasses anything Kisame possess potrayal wise _and_ feat wise, and before you say "bu bu Jiraiya's SM sucks" what makes Jiraiya's SM special is that he ma and pa are all working as a trinity ultimately the other stronger, so essentially it's three SM users all put together as one, not to mention that it's indefinite as well.



Jiraiya's SM is better than Minato's. But it ain't great, nobody should deny that, even by his own admission he's nothing compared to the sages. He never mastered SM.



Serene Grace said:


> what? is it not Oro who is controlling the ET's? By this logic is Samehada not Kisame's power since it absorbs the chakra itself, and the fact that its a completely different entity then Kisame? Lol of course not that makes no sense dude



Dumbest garbage i've read in a while.

If Samehada could function in top tier combat solo, use Mokuton and Hiraishin, and be totally seperate people then you'd have a point.

Say something ridiculous like that again and you're on ignore, don't have time to address stupid crap like that.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya showed abilities that would allow him to hold his own against Itachi. He also showed abilities that destroy Kisame.




*Without PiS playing a factor, Kisame cannot logically lose.*

Hes never shown abilities that beat Kisame

He'll never prep frog song
Goemon meets Daikodan
Needle Jizo gets blocked by Samehada

CQC, Kisame>Jiraiya



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kisame was hyped as the tailless Bijuu, but even that was minor compared to the Sannin name.



I want you to answer this, what exactly is impressive about the Sannin title? They got it for not dying immediately to Hanzo, people need to stop shitposting.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kisame never fought anyone close to Pain's power







Wonder what would happen to any of the paths if they were hit by that, considering Preta died to 1 punch 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> hough, this is probably your only valid example of a retcon which you didn't address. Kishimoto probably didn't even know the Rinnegan's abilities back then including the fact that Preta is basically a better Samehada without limits minus fusion.



By P2 Kishi had the Rinnegan figured out, you're reaching here.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 23, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Dumbest garbage i've read in a while






Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiya's SM is better than Minato's. But it ain't great, nobody should deny that, even by his own admission he's nothing compared to the sages. He never mastered SM.


No shit he didn't master it, I was specifically talking about the SM that includes Ma and Pa which as I stated is essentially three SM users working to together as one unit and providing Jiraiya with indefinite SM.



Troyse22 said:


> At best Jiraiya would have escaped with full knowledge, since he would have had no reason to go back and face the paths.


Lmao you got this from Saph let me guess? Can you explain why the context of that situation gears to Jiraiya _escaping_ when Obito later praised Jiraiya specifically for his _strength_? No of course you can't



Troyse22 said:


> and be totally seperate people then you'd have a point.


Yah is that why . Something that is its own entity would never something like that



Troyse22 said:


> Say something ridiculous like that again and you're on ignore, don't have time to address stupid crap like that.


You said Orochimaru's edo's aren't his own abilities which is ridiculous since _he_ is the one who has to prep and control

I also don't think that Troy hence why I said by your logic, ergo I'm showing you how dumb your logic sounds


You want to talk about feats and potrayal enlighten me

Any ways..

 .again? And what the hell did Kisame do, get stomped by guy twice and beat a jin who couldn't go into BM, had to protect fodder and was hard countered by Kisame via chakra absorption()()()? Lmao don't even start talking about potrayal, ,   then there's , and nothing about Kisame? Yah he gets trashed in terms of feats and hype
And this goes for all the Sannin as well, Pein stated that Jiraiya lives up to his reputation indicating that Tsunade or Oro could have done a similar result(probably no exactly like Jiraiya, but close enough to outshine Kisame)

And stop talking shit about Tsunade, the author said himself in an interview that he orginally planned Tsunade to fight Pein instead of Naruto, but was forced to cut it out thanks to shounen jump so even the author sees her as a high level shinobi

Authors opinion>>yours

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## Sapherosth (Aug 23, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Izanagi needing Hashirama cells
> Power of Hashirama
> 
> If some character was retconeed the author would have put a lot of effort showing that. "God of shinobi" "power which was near to sage of six paths"
> ...




Jiraiya didn't "guard" Naruto from akatsuki. There's literally a panel stating that.


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## Stonaem (Aug 23, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> Hyuuga being exceptional in any way.
> 
> Lol, when Konoha was getting blown up by Pain and they just shut the gates to the Hyuuga compound and turned their music up real loud to drown out the other villagers screaming and dying.


The sa!e happened with the rest of  K12
In part 1 they were hyped up and portrayed as geniuses of their clans (with the Hyuga being the genius among clans) and then trashed in part two.
So much so that some even question if the clan leader is even kage level. This leads to my next point

Part two power scaling needs to be applied to part one characters. Thankfully we have feats from the Hokage and  Kimimaro to prove this. Had the aforementioned not received any panel fights, they would be considered fodder even to Hebi Sasuke. 

However, the use of common sense easily proves that part one characters are not fodder. Consider how Kimimaro ET soloed a troupe of samurai. Then add on the fact that ET are supposed to be weaker than their living selves. Then add in the fact that living Kimimaro has CS. The picture that creates is of a mid kage individual, easily above the elite jonin of part one.
However, his part one showing is clearly against that notion as he was outlasted in a fight against individuals below the elite jonin. 

Therefore the biggest cause of confusion with character levels is the power scaling. We should be more sensible when rating part one characters against part two characters.

E.g.: all factors considered, Healthy Kimimaro would be a mid kage  level whose best matchup is Kisame (can't absorb bones, sharks get their teeth broken) and worst would be Konan.

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## theRonin (Aug 23, 2017)

Mianto loosing his hype as the strongest Hokage, just because the author wanted to make Naruto and Sasuke, hashirama and madara's parallel. That was idiotic.

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## Hasan (Aug 23, 2017)

1. Minato using the Kyuubi and Sage Mode. Their use contradicted two statements, made outright.
2. Tobirama vs. Kinkaku Squad. When Hashirama concludes his storytelling,  to transport everyone —a total of eight people. The squad surrounded seven, including Tobirama.



theRonin said:


> Mianto loosing his hype as the strongest Hokage, just because the author wanted to make Naruto and Sasuke, hashirama and madara's parallel. That was idiotic.


Minato was never the strongest Hokage; it was Hiruzen (and he probably still is, given Kishimoto's tendencies).

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## Ultrafragor (Aug 23, 2017)

I thought of something else:

After treating the Hyuuga like they didn't exist, with The Last, Kishi set it up so that Hyuuga+Otsutsuki is the same as Uchiha+Senju. Both add together to give the user Six Paths chakra.

If that is true, then the Hyuuga would have to have the same special chakra the Uchiha clan does. Since both serve as the yin/eyes half of their Rinne-Six-Paths combo.

It's like a double retcon since the Hyuuga started out being portrayed as comparable to Uchiha, both coming form the same place and all, then they were clearly shown not to be as special (pretty much not special at all) but then Kishi added some extra backstory that indicates they must be special......even though they're not.


What's even worse is that Hamura would have inherited the Yin half of Kaguya's power. Then the Hyuuga inherited the Yin half of Hamura's power. So, the Hyuuga should have stronger yin energy than the Uchiha.......

They're the Yin descendants of a yin descendant while the Uchiha are the Yin descendants of a yang descendant.

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## oiety (Aug 23, 2017)

Hiruzen in general, I feel. Obviously the hype of him being the "Strongest Hokage" which is of course demonstrably false as even accounting for his "Prime Hype" we still have a character that's nowhere near the likes of Hashirama.

But more specifically in regards to his standing as the "Strongest of the Five Kage" before his death/during his lifetime. I disagree immensely with this.

To begin with, let's start with the Mizukages. Yagura was alive and an active Kage before Hiruzen died. Given that there was no way they knew about Madara's Genjutsu (speculation=/=knowing), Hiruzen being the strongest Kage of his time implies that he was stronger than the Perfect Jinchuriki of the Three Tails, which makes no sense. There isn't anything in his arsenal that can compete with that of a Perfect Jinchuriki, and the scale of a Bijudama is more firepower than he can bring to bear. Next up we have Mei, who is easier to make a case for in regards to Hiruzen defeating her, but I digress, so moving on.

The Raikages. Without the use of Shiki Fujin (which is really a draw at best) Hiruzen has no way of defeating the Third Raikage. There isn't any indication that I've seen that would lead me to believe he could tango with someone who stalemated the Eight Tails, and made War Arc Naruto step up his reactions to actually defeat him, and it's even more worth noting that he did the later while under control and being forced to move. In a direct confrontation of two living individuals I can't imagine a scenario where Hiruzen doesn't get either blitzed or outlasted, as he isn't killing the Third. The Fourth has less of a case of durability, but his speed is ridiculous to the point where a well-trained Sharingan was having issues following it. He was the literal second fastest man alive up until Naruto's War Arc development, and even going by "portrayal" instead of feats there's nothing said about Hiruzen's amazing reactions that would somehow enable him to not get a fist through the skull at max speed.

The Tsuchikages. Flight is a better tool for mobility than anything Hiruzen possesses, and even taking his "Knowledge of All Jutsu in Konoha" thing at face value, unless we give him Hiraishin I'm quite sure that he has nothing that can be compared to Onok or Muu's flight, especially given that Onoki was shown keeping up with Deidara on the Island Turtle. Onoki even has more stamina that old Hiruzen I'd argue, given that he helped stop the meteor with Gaara directly before entering the fight with Madara, and iirc still managed to summon a Doton: Golem and Jinton Madara's forest into nothing before being recharged by Tsunade's intervention. It's another feat for both mobility and stamina that he managed to disable Five of Madara's Susano'o clones that were hounding A without getting struck, as well. Muu seems to be around his ballpark, albeit with Invisibility to make up for his lack of Golem's or weighing down opponents, and I can't see Hiruzen ever taking the win against either, unless it's like, "Prime Hiruzen vs Onoki with a broken spine" or something like that.

The Kazekages. Rasa I'll give you as a time where Hiruzen would probably take the vast majority of the wins, and intense heat melts gold so that sounds perfectly fair, along with the obvious, that Rasa was killed by Orochimaru seemingly without difficulty, whereas Hiruzen at least semi-permanently damaged Orochimaru before dying. But Gaara? There is no way Hiruzen beats any Gaara past War Arc. EoS Gaara was protecting the other Kage from Fused Momoshiki's attacks with his sand, so that's clearly out of his ballpark. War Arc Gaara is more possible, but still. He helped Onoki cushion a falling meteor, in part 1 he created enough sand to swallow up a forest in almost no time at all, his sand has already been shown to be immune to the heat of Amaterasu/Enton, not to mention the fact that it blocked A's leg drop, and the fact that the only reason the Mizukage got out of it is because of his oil (something Hiruzen doesn't have, assuming the toad oil techs are Myobuku denizens and associates only). And of course one could make the argument for Raiton, but you'd also have to remember that Gaara himself possesses Futon, which he used in his Gaara Hiden novel in the form of Fūton: Yae Hayate, which is literally a Futon wall made up of layers of vacuum space. Given these feats, I see no way for Hiruzen to even breach Gaara's shield of sand, much less take him down, whereas in turn, given that he was pressured by part 1 Hashirama's much inferior jutsu size, there's no way Gaara won't trap and tag him eventually.

In all honesty, I don't see him being much further ahead than Mei Terumi, but even then I'd still say she has a higher destructive potential than he does, melting Susano'os and all. The rest of the Gokage are easily above him with the obvious exception of Rasa. He's either on the higher end of Low Kage or the lowest end of Mid Kage tying with Chiyo or something.

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## Ultrafragor (Aug 23, 2017)

Does anyone remember that Obito's omnyoton was supposed to nullify the Edo Tensei regenerating, but hiruzen came back after Obito destroyed his head with a Gudo Dama?


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## Hi no Ishi (Aug 23, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> Does anyone remember that Obito's omnyoton was supposed to nullify the Edo Tensei regenerating, but hiruzen came back after Obito destroyed his head with a Gudo Dama?


 he wasn't using yin/yang until he regained control.


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## Hi no Ishi (Aug 23, 2017)

oiety said:


> Hiruzen in general, I feel. Obviously the hype of him being the "Strongest Hokage" which is of course demonstrably false as even accounting for his "Prime Hype" we still have a character that's nowhere near the likes of Hashirama.
> 
> But more specifically in regards to his standing as the "Strongest of the Five Kage" before his death/during his lifetime. I disagree immensely with this.
> 
> ...





oiety said:


> Hiruzen in general, I feel. Obviously the hype of him being the "Strongest Hokage" which is of course demonstrably false as even accounting for his "Prime Hype" we still have a character that's nowhere near the likes of Hashirama.
> 
> But more specifically in regards to his standing as the "Strongest of the Five Kage" before his death/during his lifetime. I disagree immensely with this.
> 
> ...


I feel like I need to make a Hiruzen thread soon. 

Old man Sarutobi as a Edo could keep up with attacks the from a smaller SS
(probably >The golem and Dragon but <The Sage SS which makes sense). 
He could also dodge Gojo which, and while alive shit on Orochimaru and the Edo Kage in CQC easily. 

He was never shown to be a scrub, he just has very little screen time.

The 5 Kage at the time were Yagura, Oonoki, A4, and Rasa

Rasa would be melted quickly as you said.
The Sanbi got knocked out by C1. Hiruzen can perform larger attacks and has Enma who can push full Kurama around.
Oonoki should have passed the torch long ago and his back is a serious liability that affected him during the FKS and nearly got him killed twice during the war.
If he gets hit in the torso with Enma he is done.

And good ol A3. While undoubtedly powerful, giant wind attacks and staff beatings make it a pretty close match and I would still call Hiruzen's  versatility  better


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## oiety (Aug 23, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> The Sanbi got knocked out by C1. Hiruzen can perform larger attacks and has Enma who can push full Kurama around.



We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Deidara's C1 flipped the Island Turtle over, I think water makes explosive stronger or something. But I don't agree that pushing Kurama around= damaging Isobu. 



Hi no Ishi said:


> Oonoki should have passed the torch long ago and his back is a serious liability that affected him during the FKS and nearly got him killed twice during the war.
> If he gets hit in the torso with Enma he is done.



He survived the force of the one meteor long enough toit, so I gotta disagree again on the Enma point. If anything I see him getting hit by it, grabbing it, and either weighing it down or lightening it to the point of uselessness. In any even situation, Old Hiruzen vs Old Onoki, or Prime Hiruzen vs Prime Onoki, I'd favor Onoki.



Hi no Ishi said:


> And good ol A3. While undoubtedly powerful, giant wind attacks and staff beatings make it a pretty close match and I would still call Hiruzen's versatility better



But A3 stalemated the Eight Tails, who did this nonchalantly. I'd rate stopping two tailed beast charges higher than pushing Kurama with the extending staff.

In addition the Third  the Rasenshuriken, with the sun in his eyes. I don't even see him getting touched by Enma or the Futon, let alone hurt by either, considering was how he looked after getting hit by the Rasenshuriken, even by Naruto's own . He does have some low end stuff like getting reacted to by Dodai, but as shown in that scan, he get's taken over by Kabuto after he gets hit, and as we've seen with Nagato that can often make characters a bit...well, not play up to their full potential.

But I do agree that Hiruzen isn't fodder, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying he's overrated as fuck.


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## Monty Burns (Aug 23, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Baseless hype tbh, you think Obito wasn't scared of Nagato but scared of Jiraiya, you think Obito who fought KCM Naruto, Gai and Kakashi was scared of Jiraiya solo?


Nobody said Obito was scared of Jiraiya. Nobody said Jiraiya is on Pain's level either.

1. Obito stated Jiraiya had lived up to his name as a Sannin. 
2. Nagato stated he would've lost if Jiraiya had knowledge on him.
3. Obito said to Kabuto to not push his luck when he mentioned reviving Shisui and Jiraiya. 

Obito and Nagato clearly had respect for Jiriaya's abilities. Obito wasn't scared of him, he was being precautionary. In Obito's mind he thought Jiraiya would be troublesome. How is this baseless? It's commonsense.

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## Ultrafragor (Aug 23, 2017)

oiety said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Deidara's C1 flipped the Island Turtle over, I think water makes explosive stronger or something.



Water dampens the explosion, but makes it more dangerous for people.

It's harder for a pressure wave to move through water, but when it does it becomes more dangerous for humans or other water based creatures because instead of a wave passing from  air into human flesh, the wave is already moving through a substance more similar to the human body in density, meaning it will pass through the body easier and cause more damage.

Which isn't relevant to a blast flipping the island turtle over. Deidara's blast had the power to push that water hard enough to flip the turtle.

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## oiety (Aug 23, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> Which isn't relevant to a blast flipping the island turtle over. Deidara's blast had the power to push that water hard enough to flip the turtle.



Thanks. Then I'll stick to my other point and just state that I don't believe Enma can output as much force in a blow as Deidara's bombs can.


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2017)

oiety said:


> But more specifically in regards to his standing as the "Strongest of the Five Kage" before his death/during his lifetime. I disagree immensely with this.


I have to disagree with you. Looking at the manga holistically, any time-period we have solid details on the Hokage appears to be the greatest of the Gokage, during that period. For example Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, and Naruto, are all very clearly the greatest of the Gokage during their reign as Hokage. The only one you could argue is Tsunade, but I think while Tsunade was no the greatest fighter, she was overall the greatest of the 5 Gokage due to her support capabilities, which fits considering she is first and foremost a medical expert. We see this in the Madara battle, she gets outshined by Onoki in offensive might, but ultimately she is the one that saves the Gokage's lives multiple times through her Medical Ninjutsu and support capabilities. 

So it would fit the pattern that Hiruzen would be the greatest of the Gokage during both his reigns as well; and in his case since he's not support oriented it makes sense that this would place him as the overall strongest in battle. Also bare in mind that there is no statement that conflicts with Old-Hiruzen being the strongest Gokage at any point after the statement is made, unlike in the case of Prime-Hiruzen being the strongest Shinobi/Hokage. 

As far as how Old-Hiruzen can stand up to the other Gokage, I think that is fairly simple as well, if we consider Hiruzen's experience/knowledge and wildly diverse pool of techniques.

Mei - Given Hiruzen's status as the professor and the knowledge he's shown throughout the manga, he most likely knows about Futton and Youton, and can recognize the hand-seals for both. Hiruzen can use Fuuton to dispel Futton (and demonic mist); Youton can likely be slowed down with Suiton enough that Hiruzen will be able to evade it; the same way we saw Kakashi slow down Kakuzu Katon+Fuuton blast with Suijin-Heki.  Her Suitons can also be countered with Dotons. Meanwhile Mei has not shown hardly any skill in CQC that would make me believe she'd be able to avoid getting beaten down by Hiruzen + Enma; and at Long-Range, with her Suitons countered, she will be overwhelmed by Hiruzen Elemental Ninjutsu.

Ei - Given Hiruzen's activity around the time that Ei's father was a big deal, Hiruzen definitely has knowledge of Raiton Armor, and he will know to avoid a direct confrontation with Ei. So unless Ei starts the match with heavily advantageous circumstances, like at short-range and goes for blitz right away, Hiruzen will be simply use diversion tactics on Ei. Hiruzen almost certainly among his 1K Ninjutsu and Genjutsu has ways to cut of Ei's line of sight, and Ei is not a sensor, so once that occurs Hiruzen can hit him with blind-side attacks, circumventing his speed, and using Fuuton Ninjutsu to overcome his Raiton Armor. Hiruzen will simply outplay Ei at every turn and take him down preying on Ei's lack of versatility and elemental weakness.

Rasa - I don't think I even need to go into detail here, Rasa was own'd by Gaara, even despite his Gold-Dust having a natural advantage over Gaara's Sand. Nothing leads me to believe that his standing as someone who was defeated by Orochimaru much easier than Orochimaru defeated Hiruzen has changed. But ether way if Hiruzen could push back Shin Suusenju with his Elemental Blasts, then he can certaily defend Rasa's Gold-Dust attacks, and once he gets in close on Rasa he can overwhelm him.

Yagura - Yagura is a perfect Jinchuuriki, but we've seen Hiruzen take on Giant Bijuu entities successfully in both Shin Suusenju and Kurama, so I he should be able to hold his own even against Sanbi. Plus let's be honest Sanbi was KO'd by Deidara basic C1 Fish, it didn't seem to have super high durability, so I think multiple Element blasts could probably defeat it. But if not Hiruzen is skilled enough at Fuuinjutsu that he can use the same Fuuinjutsu that sealed Kurama, pretty sure he'd have a Fuuinjutsu in his employ that can seal the Sanbi. Worse case scenario the fight ends in a draw with Shiki Fuujin, and if the worse case scenario is a draw, while Hiruzen could win other ways, I think Hiruzen being considered at least slightly superior isn't unfounded.

Onoki - Onoki would be the toughest match, but considering Hiruzen's knowledge of Jinton he won't be going into it blind and will know the danger of it. Hiruzen can likely combat Jinton with Elemental blast, as we've seen sufficient force of chakra can block Jinton, as was the case with P-Susano'o blocking the Giant Jinton Cube produced by Onoki + Tsunade. From there Hiruzen can counter Onoki's Doton's with Raitons, and he can probably game around Onoki with superior versatility and a much vaster arsenal of Ninjutsu + Genjutus. It would be a close battle no doubt, but Hiruzen doesn't have to be much stronger then Onoki, since Onoki is likely the second strongest Gokage, he only needs to be slightly stronger; and as I said with Yagura, worse case he would likely end it with Shiki Fuujin focring a draw.

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## Rocky (Aug 23, 2017)

Turrin said:


> So it would fit the pattern that Hiruzen would be the greatest of the Gokage during both his reigns as well; and in his case since he's not support oriented it makes sense that this would place him as the overall strongest in battle.


Hiruzen would have developed that reputation over the course of his reign though. It would have been his accomplishments in_ years prior_ that earned him such respect. By the time Orochimaru invaded, even _Hiruzen himself_ was surprised at how physically weak he'd grown, so why would the general public consider that in how they view him?



Turrin said:


> As far as how Old-Hiruzen can stand up to the other Gokage, I think that is fairly simple as well, if we consider Hiruzen's experience/knowledge and wildly diverse pool of techniques.


I read each description of how you envision those fights, and you make no mention of Hiruzen's aged body in any of them, despite that being a _major_ weakness for him that the author highlighted multiple times. Matter of fact, it's the _only_ reason he lost to Orochimaru ("If only I were 10 years younger, I'd kill you here"). 

You're arguing with an agenda, ignoring Hiruzen's problems and only focusing on his strengths and the other kage's weaknesses. You also make some serious stretches (why is Perfect Susanoo being brought up in an old Hiruzen debate? ). Funny thing is, you don't need to do that to prove your point. Even if I'm wrong and Orochimaru-fight Hiruzen is the strongest of the five kage, he wouldn't necessarily have to beat all of them in a fight for that to hold true. Matchup advantages exist.


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## Kai (Aug 23, 2017)

The Sharingan was not active the first time Susanoo was shown on panel so I don't know what retcon you could be referring to


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## Hitachi Uchiha (Aug 23, 2017)

Nothing at all in the manga disproves Kisame's inferiority to the Sannin in P1. Using the Bee fight isn't really convincing because we all know against chakra heavy ninjutsu users or chakra cloak users, they are bad match ups against Kisame. When it comes to tactical fighters who aren't 1 dimensional (like Bee in his cloaked forms), he's average. He didn't bother using chakra arms to disarm him, didn't bother using his acrobat or Raiton, he just kept going straight in.


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## oiety (Aug 24, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Ei - Given Hiruzen's activity around the time that Ei's father was a big deal, Hiruzen definitely has knowledge of Raiton Armor, and he will know to avoid a direct confrontation with Ei. So unless Ei starts the match with heavily advantageous circumstances, like at short-range and goes for blitz right away, Hiruzen will be simply use diversion tactics on Ei. Hiruzen almost certainly among his 1K Ninjutsu and Genjutsu has ways to cut of Ei's line of sight, and Ei is not a sensor, so once that occurs Hiruzen can hit him with blind-side attacks, circumventing his speed, and using Fuuton Ninjutsu to overcome his Raiton Armor. Hiruzen will simply outplay Ei at every turn and take him down preying on Ei's lack of versatility and elemental weakness.



Then we'll have to keep this disagreement, as I don't even favor the idea of Hiruzen being reactive enough to begin to use "diversion tactics" on a speedster of AAAA's caliber. Given that A4 dodged Juugo's cannons at point blank with his hand seemingly stuck in his stomach, I'm not too keen on the idea of him getting caught by one, or any even, of Hiruzen's attacks.



Turrin said:


> Yagura - Yagura is a perfect Jinchuuriki, but we've seen Hiruzen take on Giant Bijuu entities successfully in both Shin Suusenju and Kurama, so I he should be able to hold his own even against Sanbi. Plus let's be honest Sanbi was KO'd by Deidara basic C1 Fish, it didn't seem to have super high durability, so I think multiple Element blasts could probably defeat it. But if not Hiruzen is skilled enough at Fuuinjutsu that he can use the same Fuuinjutsu that sealed Kurama, pretty sure he'd have a Fuuinjutsu in his employ that can seal the Sanbi. Worse case scenario the fight ends in a draw with Shiki Fuujin, and if the worse case scenario is a draw, while Hiruzen could win other ways, I think Hiruzen being considered at least slightly superior isn't unfounded.



I don't recall Hiruzen ever dealing with Kurama's unadulterated might on his own, and as such I find the situations incomparable-using Enma to push Kurama away is different than fighting a Perfect Jinchuriki, and the ShinSuusenju's Ninjutsu is still of less force than that of a Bijudama. Also not sure about granting Hiruzen or the ShinSuusenju a level of power above that of Deidara's C1, at least not without some discussion. "Pretty sure" there isn't anything that he can do about a Bijudama from a a Tailed Beast, Jinchuriki or not, and especially not with anything he's shown so far.



Turrin said:


> Onoki - Onoki would be the toughest match, but considering Hiruzen's knowledge of Jinton he won't be going into it blind and will know the danger of it. Hiruzen can likely combat Jinton with Elemental blast, as we've seen sufficient force of chakra can block Jinton, as was the case with P-Susano'o blocking the Giant Jinton Cube produced by Onoki + Tsunade. From there Hiruzen can counter Onoki's Doton's with Raitons, and he can probably game around Onoki with superior versatility and a much vaster arsenal of Ninjutsu + Genjutus. It would be a close battle no doubt, but Hiruzen doesn't have to be much stronger then Onoki, since Onoki is likely the second strongest Gokage, he only needs to be slightly stronger; and as I said with Yagura, worse case he would likely end it with Shiki Fuujin focring a draw.



The force of chakra that is Perfect Susano'o again seems incomparable to what Hiruzen can output. Perfect Susano'o is huge, easily large enough to cover Kurama, and the Goton just does not seem to reach the heights shown by it. In addition the Goton is still a mass of elemental chakra, whereas the Susano'o is condensed, "pure" chakra. In addition I'd very much like to see the scan for Perfect Susano'o blocking Jinton. I see no reason to believe, given how Onoki shredded Madara's Mokuton with ease, that Hiruzen could output enough Ninjutsu to even begin to think of countering or blocking Jinton. I don't see Shiki Fuujin ever becoming a thing in this match either, given Onoki's aerial status. I also don't believe that it would be as simple as you make it out to be, for Hiruzen to "game around Onoki". Of the few characters in this manga that have shown some aptitude at tactics, Onoki definitely ranks rather highly among them. Onoki is just as old as Hiruzen with an apparent grudge against Konoha, and the idea that Hiruzen knows enough about Onoki's style of battle to outplay him, and Onoki knows nothing of Hiruzen's reputation in turn is an unfair scenario and one that isn't likely true, I'd think. I find the idea of Onoki falling to whatever Genjutsu Hiruzen has to be ridiculous as well, given that not only did he avoid getting Genjutsu'd by Madara at any point in that match, but also in that Hiruzen has never once shown a single Genjutsu. Even going strictly by portrayal instead of feats and handing over whatever Genjutsu is known to be "from Konoha" to Hiruzen, what even is there to give him outside of what Kurenai has? Going strictly by feats, again, as I said, Hiruzen hasn't shown anything that gives me any indication that he would be capable of fighting Onoki on even ground, much less winning.

Onoki had quite clearly been shown to create Stone Golem's almost instantly, most notably during Madara's Yasaka Magatama throw but also before Deidara's C1 Bird exploded in the face of him and Akatsuchi. Given the rapid creation of the Stone Golems and how seemingly untaxing they are, along with the size he can induce in them (shown by Madara resorting to using Mokuton to grasp it and drag it down), I believe that it isn't unfeasible and is in fact likely that Hiruzen would be pressured by the force of Onoki working alongside his Golems. As I've said earlier, his Jinton were to the scale that the entirety of the Flower Tree World was disposed of. Not only singular dances, but also duets as well, given that his abilities were shown to lend themselves much, much more towards team efforts than anything Hiruzen has shown. For starters  we have his combination with A, but the lightening/heavying Combo is a reliable boost for almost any character Kage level above, with obvious exceptions for those who mainly rely on Ninjutsu-actually, no, I take that back. Lightening itself is useful for every character, most especially so for those who mainly rely on Ninjutsu. We saw him lighten Gaara's sand to increase it's speed already, but a liberal amount of lightening provided to character's like Mei, Itachi, or Sasori and his puppets-character's who make more use of Genjutsu, Ninjutsu, or anything that isn't reliant on outright physical strength would be incredibly aided by it increasing their speed and lowering their chances of getting hit, along with making them flight capable. Weighing down on its own is likely less useful given the importance of speed in this manga, but there's no reason why Onoki can't do exactly what he did for A4 for characters like A3, Might Gai, Tsunade, etc. In fact there's no reason that he can't utilize it on himself with the stronger techniques in his possession, the super lightening and super weighing, respectively, for an even stronger personal combo. In another situation with Jinton, given it's sheer overwhelming superiority over that of usual Elemental Ninjutsu, Onoki backed up by a medic nin akin to Tsunade or Sakura is also leaps and bounds ahead of Hiruzen's usefulness when placed in a similar situation. You say Hiruzen is more versatile, and that is true, but his versatility matters very little when in comparison to his Master of All reputation, Onoki can output both more force and more protection due to his sheer overspecialization in the fields of Jinton and Doton. The Adamantine Cage seems to only be usable for one person and also restricts movement, something the Doton: Golem does not do. Jinton's attacking power is easily above that of Goton going strictly by portrayal given that it disintegrates down to the molecular level. By Tsunade's own admission and a statement seemingly agreed with by A,  a user of Jinton can face down another user of Jinton, so long as the power gap isn't incredibly disproportionate(Ala Onoki or Muu vs anyone above the level of Madara).

Moving Earth Core gives Onoki the battlefield manipulation advantage, and he's already been shown using up to about Six Rock Clones without really becoming exhausted. Enma is far more of a liability here than anything, given Onoki's talent in manipulating the weight of objects. Given that, as I said in a previous post, he managed to resist the force of the falling meteor (and indeed, not die when another Tengai Shinsei was dropped) and lighten the Island Turtle enough to carry it one handed/weigh his arm down enough to crack open the giant clam, I see Hiruzen getting disarmed relatively quickly at the cost of a moderate blow to Onoki's person. A weighed down Enma in Hiruzen's old age is likely too much for him to lift, or at least its more stamina exhausting than usual, and a lightened one is just akin to battering somebody with a  blow up doll hammer-comparatively useless. If Hiruzen himself get's touched by the weight increasing Doton that seems like a game over win condition in itself, given that with just a few seconds Onoki had petrified the Zetsu growing out of him and petrified Muu, who was rushing toward him after being sent flying through a rock. In _The Last_ Onoki was even shown containing speeding meteors in the fields of his Jinton, so I highly doubt that Hiruzen is too nimble to get caught in the pulverizing box.

But another important caveat to using an argument from portrayal, if we're giving Hiruzen jutsu that he has never shown then I'd argue that Onoki should be a recipient of that as well, given his immense capability shown so far with Doton, status as the Tsuchikage, and the jutsu possessed by his direct underlings like Kitsuchi, Kurotsuchi, and Akatsuchi that could give him a greater benefit in battle. A technique like the Doton: Sandwhich is an offense almost as implacable as Jinton, the Doton: Renga which is said to be an extremely simple brick wall for reducing the force of incoming attacks, the Hiding Like a Mole technique to be used with Rock Clones for a source of tactics and outplaying, and a variety of other low rank Doton techniques. In fact, I believe it unfair when people use portrayal to give one character techniques that they haven't shown without accounting for the portrayal of the other character(s) in that match.

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## Hasan (Aug 24, 2017)

Eh, I think Hiruzen's hype is a case of being realistically impossible for the author to demonstrate, than being a retcon. Anything he has written, or can write will always fall short of one's expectations. For after all, unlike other characters whose hype is based around a specialized class of techniques, Hiruzen's hype is basically his encyclopedic knowledge and mastery of everything that ninja can learn. It is too creatively demanding to come up with unique set of abilities that would set the character apart from others. That is, because even when characters tend to share similar skills, Kishimoto still tries to make a distinction between them; making it impossible to justify Hiruzen's case.

Secondly, Kishimoto's idea of justifying hype is something we are all accustomed to, and Guy vs. Madara is perhaps the best demonstration of it. I don't think, in the highly improbable case that Kishimoto manages to succeed in writing, other characters would have a reason to be there. . . so it makes sense, he wrote a little and simply went with: "All of it is true!" because that is the next best thing. Him counterbalancing Tobi's assault with the same combination shows that not only is he capable, his knowledge is indeed extensive.

Hiruzen is too OP for this manga.

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## Ultrafragor (Aug 24, 2017)

Kishimoto shit the bed with Hiruzen

He knows every jutsu in Konoha, but his signature jutsu is throwing a bunch of shuriken?

I guess it's just like Kakashi who knows 1000 jutsu, but the only useful ones to him are chidori and hiding like a mole jutsu. You sure there's no multi-layer barriers, fuinjutsu, or other useful stuff in that 1000 jutsu?

He probably just copied stuff like Water Bullet, Water Dragon Bullet, Shuriken Water Bullet, Shuriken Water Dragon, Fuma Shuriken Water Bullet, Fuma Shuriken Water Dragon Bullet, ect.


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## Jikaishin (Aug 24, 2017)

People still try to make Troyse admit that Kisame is not that strong


They are either really courageous or fool, I don't know

I mean he once said Daikodan could eat through anything with chakra like Bijuu Dama and Indra Arrow ... Fool it is

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## Monty Burns (Aug 24, 2017)

Jikaishin said:


> People still try to make Troyse admit that Kisame is not that strong
> 
> 
> They are either really courageous or fool, I don't know
> ...


Some of us have seen the light. Now I know why he's capable of soloing Nagato, Obito, BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Minato, Jiraiya etc...

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## Azula (Aug 24, 2017)

Kisame is not much more than Obito's errand boy in the overall scheme of the things while Jiraiya has a much more central role in the story.

It's ridiculous to even entertain the notion that power levels will be adjusted for Fish-boy of all people, not that even after brain-storming hard can we come up with a way he can win. Kisame had an interesting ability but so does everyone else and a little side story of himself but so does everyone else. It also goes for the rest of the Akatsuki around Kisame level. I would not be surprised if each of them ended up doing little better than Konan or Kisame going up against Jiraiya. 

Konoha's strongest just have an unfair advantage over other characters, after all the story is pretty much all about them.

Hiruzen not being the strongest hokage is really only the clearest retcon, but even still his intelligence and knowledge and skill remain intact and he will still beat most other characters.

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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2017)

oiety said:


> Thanks. Then I'll stick to my other point and just state that I don't believe Enma can output as much force in a blow as Deidara's bombs can.


This is irrelevant. I don't know when people will get "More firepower =/= stronger (necessarily)" 

Itachi can't output as much force as Deidara's bombs either. Does not change the fact that Itachi is stronger than him, now does it? 

-----
OT: Stuff that have been retconned
1- Water-style moves (for needing a nearby source) 
2- Izanagi (needing Senju power/Hashi's cells)
3- Hashirama & Tobirama
4- Susanoo (needing Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi) 
5- Zetsu (being made out of Hashi's cells), and BZ as well.
6- The entire Juubi's story from start to finish
7- Asspulldara's role
8- Itachi's character
9- The Sharingan
10- Hiruzen's character

That's on top of my head now.


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## Ayala (Aug 24, 2017)

I think Kakashi's sense of smell was retconned. I don't think he was supposed to have "superior to Kiba" sense of smell at start series (and Kiba can find traps and people he has never met from kilometers of distance), when he fought Zabuza.

The mist was specifically said to block the sight, while Zabuza blocked the sound. At that point, Kakashi concluded that he had to try the sense of smell, but not by himself, but by his dogs. He didn't even try it in his own, like Hiruzen did in the same situation, or like he was shown to do on Kakashi Gaiden, where the first thing he tries against an invisible enemy is exactly smell.

As for his third fight with Zabuza, i believe Kishi didn't let him use it because it would have "broken" the story, there would be a direct contradiction, and no reasonable way to explain the retcon.

"I struggled so hard to beat this enemy, but now im outright low diff-ing him because i remembered i have a superior sense of smell since age 13"

At start series many things weren't perfectly outlined, KN0 Naruto was supposed to be stronger than Kakashi, low on chakra Kakashi made hundreds of clones, Kakashi needed a scroll to summon his ninken, Zabuza who eats jonin for breakfast possesses only one element, when most jonin posses 2 (even Gai who couldn't use ninjutsu and doesn't ever use it has 2 elements, even Sai who was about to get eaten for breakfast by the same Zabuza possesses three..) ect.

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## Monty Burns (Aug 24, 2017)

Hussain said:


> 3- Hashirama & Tobirama


How were they retconned?


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> How were they retconned?


Regarding their power and roles...


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## Serene Grace (Aug 24, 2017)

Kishi always did the "knows a lot of jutsu" hype and didn't show shit in return, it was annoying.


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## Hasan (Aug 24, 2017)

I was waiting for a disagreement.

a. Minato being non-jinchuuriki type [, ].
b. Sage Mode [].

Interesting is the Kyuubi-Naruto dialogue []; Kishimoto did not even attempt to cover-up, it seems.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Hitachi Uchiha (Aug 24, 2017)

The Kyubi Minato thing was a huge asspull. Similar to how Kakashi obtained MS + PS. Huge asspulls and retcons.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Hasan (Aug 24, 2017)

Hitachi Uchiha said:


> The Kyubi Minato thing was a huge asspull.


Indeed, it was. 



> Similar to how Kakashi obtained MS + PS. Huge asspulls and retcons.


Well, not quite. Obito did nothing which was not already shown or established; Dan, using Reika no Jutsu, gave his chakra to Tsunade. In fact, Indra and Ashura have doing it for ages, according to Hagoromo. Hagoromo himself has been floating around as a chakra, since his death. I have not watched THE LAST, but it seems Hamura, too, does that. The only iffy-thing with Obito sequence was apparently the usage of Kamui, _*which he never actually used. That is Kishimoto merely taking a liberty to use it as transition-effect.*_

If anything that did not make sense, it was DMS getting taken away.


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## Hitachi Uchiha (Aug 24, 2017)

@Hussain Would you explain why it isn't a retcon. I'm interested in your opinion.


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2017)

^

I am kinda bored to write a lot currently tbh. Maybe will explain it later on...


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## Troyse22 (Aug 24, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> Kisame is not much more than Obito's errand boy in the overall scheme of the things while Jiraiya has a much more central role in the story.



Both had different purposes, with Jiraiya's role being directly related to the main character of the manga, of course he's going to be more relevant, the Akatsuki were the main villains, but all of them have had significantly less panel time than Jiraiya.

Obito used Kisame because he knew of Kisame's fixation on a world without lies, which Obito promised to create. Kisame straight up fucked off on the Akatsuki when Itachi died (although he still wore the robes, signifying that he would come to their aid when needed and he was still loyal to their cause) 

Jiraiya taught the child of prophecy, and was a big part in Naruto's ambition and motivation, and it was Jiraiya's and Naruto's words that caused Nagato to "believe" in Naruto and revive everyone at the cost of his own life. Jiraiya played a large part in the story even past his death. In terms of who gave other characters the motivation to make big changes in the world, that definitely goes to Jiraiya, but as far as who took the action necessary to achieve their goals, that goes to Kisame.

Both served different purposes as both had entirely different beliefs and morals.



Jikaishin said:


> I mean he once said Daikodan could eat through anything with chakra like Bijuu Dama and Indra Arrow ... Fool it is





Dispute it with Kishi, not me.

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## Jikaishin (Aug 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Dispute it with Kishi, not me.



Do you even know what NFL and hyperbole are ?


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2017)

oiety said:


> Then we'll have to keep this disagreement, as I don't even favor the idea of Hiruzen being reactive enough to begin to use "diversion tactics" on a speedster of AAAA's caliber. Given that A4 dodged Juugo's cannons at point blank with his hand seemingly stuck in his stomach, I'm not too keen on the idea of him getting caught by one, or any even, of Hiruzen's attacks.


Ei's ability to evade an attack he saw coming, has nothing to do with his ability to evade an attack he doesn't see coming. Ei can evade Amaterasu at his best, but he couldn't evade a physical slash from Minato's Kunai and had to be saved by B; and he couldn't evade a Madara clones Susano'o grab. Why? Because in both instances he didn't see the attack coming. And that is what i'm suggesting Hiruzen will do he will distract Ei, and attack him from a blindspot.



> I don't recall Hiruzen ever dealing with Kurama's unadulterated might on his own, and as such I find the situations incomparable-using Enma to push Kurama away is different than fighting a Perfect Jinchuriki, and the ShinSuusenju's Ninjutsu is still of less force than that of a Bijudama. Also not sure about granting Hiruzen or the ShinSuusenju a level of power above that of Deidara's C1, at least not without some discussion. "


Shin-Suusenju's 5 Elemental Blast was considered a threat to the entire alliance, so it is obviously far above Deidara's C1. 



> Pretty sure" there isn't anything that he can do about a Bijudama from a a Tailed Beast, Jinchuriki or not, and especially not with anything he's shown so far.


We've seen Doton used to deflect TBB or cause the caster to miss-fire. Considering Hiruzen's Doton skill he can simply employ this method.



> The force of chakra that is Perfect Susano'o again seems incomparable to what Hiruzen can output. Perfect Susano'o is huge, easily large enough to cover Kurama, and the Goton just does not seem to reach the heights shown by it. In addition the Goton is still a mass of elemental chakra, whereas the Susano'o is condensed, "pure" chakra. In addition I'd very much like to see the scan for Perfect Susano'o blocking Jinton. I see no reason to believe, given how Onoki shredded Madara's Mokuton with ease, that Hiruzen could output enough Ninjutsu to even begin to think of countering or blocking Jinton.


Of course P-Susano'o is > Hiruzen's Goton. However their Onoki was empowered by Tsunade's medical Ninjutsu making his Jinton far greater. I merely used the example of P-Susano'o to show that Jinton can be blocked by sufficient force of Chakra. I believe Hiruzen utilizing clones and multiple elemental blasts can block Jinton, if he runs into a situation where he can't evade or feint his way out of being hit by a blast.



> I don't see Shiki Fuujin ever becoming a thing in this match either, given Onoki's aerial status.


Shiki Fuujin's arm can extend to Long-Range, and it's invisible, so I don't see how Onoki can knowingly evade it, he has no way to perceive it's existence.



> . I also don't believe that it would be as simple as you make it out to be, for Hiruzen to "game around Onoki". Of the few characters in this manga that have shown some aptitude at tactics, Onoki definitely ranks rather highly among them. Onoki is just as old as Hiruzen with an apparent grudge against Konoha, and the idea that Hiruzen knows enough about Onoki's style of battle to outplay him, and Onoki knows nothing of Hiruzen's reputation in turn is an unfair scenario and one that isn't likely true, I'd think. I find the idea of Onoki falling to whatever Genjutsu Hiruzen has to be ridiculous as well, given that not only did he avoid getting Genjutsu'd by Madara at any point in that match, but also in that Hiruzen has never once shown a single Genjutsu. Even going strictly by portrayal instead of feats and handing over whatever Genjutsu is known to be "from Konoha" to Hiruzen, what even is there to give him outside of what Kurenai has? Going strictly by feats, again, as I said, Hiruzen hasn't shown anything that gives me any indication that he would be capable of fighting Onoki on even ground, much less winning.


I never said it would be easy, in-fact I said the exact opposite that Onoki would be Hiruzen's toughest fight among the Gokage. 

And going strictly by feats, is completely unfair to Hiruzen, considering that he has had less screen time then Onoki to gather feats in PII and considering he is stated to have mastered thousands of Jutsu, with us only seeing like dozen or so of them. 

With that in mind, considering Hiruzen knew every Jutsu in the leaf village at one point their is plenty of possibilities for techniques Hiruzen could have that could prove challenging for Onoki. Hiruzen clearly knows tons of Fuuton and Suiton techniques, we've seen both elements used to obscure the enemies view in the form of Shima's Dust Cloud and Zabuza's Demonic Mist, it's very possible Hiruzen can also use a Fuuton or Suiton LOS blocking Technique, and using that in conjunction with clones can enable him to create an opening on Onoki, as Onoki possess no extra sensory abilities. We've also seen Kakashi utilizing Doton to obscure clone feints and other tricks, Hiruzen very likely knows similar Doton techniques. We've seen Hashirama, Hiruzen former teacher, employ a Genjutsu to obscure vision; something Hiruzen may also be capable off. We've seen invisibility and chamouflage techniques used before, and it's very possible Hiruzen is able to use one or more of those. Whatever the case may be we've seen that when Onoki has his vision of the enemy obscured he has problems; see his fight against Mu for example.

Hiruzen is also just highly skilled with clones, and we've seen many types of clones employeed in the manga, ones that explode, paralyze with Raiton, etc... He could potentially use those to try and create an opening for himself to get the drop on Onoki. We've seen Genjutsu used as a feint before to create a false illusion and allow the enemy to get the drop one someone. 

And Hiruzen doesn't need a big opening, as Onoki doesn't have some crazy hax defense, he would easily be killed by a well placed Raiton, Fuuton, etc.. piercing attack on a vital area. 



> . In fact there's no reason that he can't utilize it on himself with the stronger techniques in his possession, the super lightening and super weighing, respectively, for an even stronger personal combo. In another situation with Jinton, given it's sheer overwhelming superiority over that of usual Elemental Ninjutsu, Onoki backed up by a medic nin akin to Tsunade or Sakura is also leaps and bounds ahead of Hiruzen's usefulness when placed in a similar situation. You say Hiruzen is more versatile, and that is true, but his versatility matters very little when in comparison to his Master of All reputation, Onoki can output both more force and more protection due to his sheer overspecialization in the fields of Jinton and Doton. The Adamantine Cage seems to only be usable for one person and also restricts movement, something the Doton: Golem does not do. Jinton's attacking power is easily above that of Goton going strictly by portrayal given that it disintegrates down to the molecular level. By Tsunade's own admission and a statement seemingly agreed with by A,  a user of Jinton can face down another user of Jinton, so long as the power gap isn't incredibly disproportionate(Ala Onoki or Muu vs anyone above the level of Madara).



Onoki is obviously better at Doton and has a better singular offense in Jinton then Hiruzen, but Hiruzen's strength is not in specializing in one area it's his ability in all areas. He can use all 5 Elements at a super high level, not just one or two. He can use all Ninjutsu, Hidden, and Genjutsu techniques in the leaf village. 

And Tsunade's statement only applied to characters currently in the Kage Alliance army, not deceased characters. Unless you think Tsunade literally believes no one can defeat a Jinton user, but another Jinton user, not Jiraiya, not Minato, not Hanzo, not Orochimaru, not Hashirama, etc... 

In the Kage alliance army Onoki was the only one who stood a chance against a Jinton user, but Hiruzen wasn't in the army, he was dead.



> I see Hiruzen getting disarmed relatively quickly at the cost of a moderate blow to Onoki's person. A weighed down Enma in Hiruzen's old age is likely too much for him to lift, or at least its more stamina exhausting than usual, and a lightened one is just akin to battering somebody with a blow up doll hammer-comparatively useless.


If you really want to go down the route of citing age handicaps, Onoki's back could just randomly give out allowing Hiruzen to easily defeat him. 



> But another important caveat to using an argument from portrayal, if we're giving Hiruzen jutsu that he has never shown then I'd argue that Onoki should be a recipient of that as well, given his immense capability shown so far with Doton, status as the Tsuchikage, and the jutsu possessed by his direct underlings like Kitsuchi, Kurotsuchi, and Akatsuchi that could give him a greater benefit in battle. A technique like the Doton: Sandwhich is an offense almost as implacable as Jinton, the Doton: Renga which is said to be an extremely simple brick wall for reducing the force of incoming attacks, the Hiding Like a Mole technique to be used with Rock Clones for a source of tactics and outplaying, and a variety of other low rank Doton techniques. In fact, I believe it unfair when people use portrayal to give one character techniques that they haven't shown without accounting for the portrayal of the other character(s) in that match.


I'm sure Onoki does know more Jutsu. However giving Onoki a specialized technique we've only seen Kitsuchi perform, when he has no hype of knowing every Doton Jutsu in Iwa, is reaching too far. I'd be more justified in arguing Hiruzen could use 6th/7th-Gate, Hiraishin, or Sage-Mode, then you would be arguing Onoki can use Doton Sando.

And saying i'm only using portrayal on onside is unfounded, I said Onoki would be Hiruzen's toughest opponent and may only be slightly inferior to Hiruzen, specifically because of his portrayal as the strongest Gokage during the Madara fight, and his portrayal as being so experienced and skillful. 

The problem is Hiruzen is simply protrayed superior to Onoki. He was stated multiple times to be superior and as I said traditionally the Hokages are the best of the 5 Kage during their time. He also has better hype imo, as despite Onoki's Doton and Jinton skills being amazing I don't think that quite measures up to knowing how to perform every Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutus, and Hidden Technique in one of the strongest and most diverse hidden villages in the Naruto World. 

And as far as a battle goes, while like I said i'm sure Onoki also knows more techniques. We've already seen Onoki loose to Mu because he had a tough time dealing with openings Mu's invisibility created. So I don't think it's unimaginable that Hiruzen w/ every Ninjutsu, Hidden, and Genjutsu technique from the entire leaf village under his belt, could employ many different tricky techniques to create similar openings on Onoki, and win out that way. Or worse case scenario force a draw Onoki with another invisible attack in the form of Shiki Fuujin. Also despite how useful Onoki is in the form of support with weight alteration and such, I don't think it's unimaginable that Hiruzen again having every Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Hiden, and Taijutsu technique from an entire hidden village under he belt would end up being more useful in missions then Onoki, and be consider the greater/stronger Shinobi overall. 

I just don't see how Hiruzen being slightly better then Onoki is that hard to fathom.

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## Marsala (Aug 24, 2017)

Hiruzen is called the Professor who know every jutsu in Konoha.

Hiraishin was invented by Hiruzen's sensei Tobirama and used by his student's student and successor as Hokage.

Hiraishin was also learned and used by Minato's three jounin guards, whoever they were. (Genma and Raidou?)

So Hiruzen should know Hiraishin, right?

And yet he clearly doesn't.

Hiruzen's hype is all bullshit. Not only is he not the strongest but he also doesn't know "every jutsu in Konoha" like is stated about him, even excluding the bloodline limit, clan secret, and forbidden ones!

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## Azula (Aug 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Both had different purposes, with Jiraiya's role being directly related to the main character of the manga, of course he's going to be more relevant, the Akatsuki were the main villains, but all of them have had significantly less panel time than Jiraiya.
> 
> Obito used Kisame because he knew of Kisame's fixation on a world without lies, which Obito promised to create. Kisame straight up fucked off on the Akatsuki when Itachi died (although he still wore the robes, signifying that he would come to their aid when needed and he was still loyal to their cause)
> 
> ...



Sasori's story showed the horrible effects of wars on children who get orphaned but that is still a side story that adds to the main and I just don't see it being of the same importance.


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2017)

Hitachi Uchiha said:


> @Hussain Would you explain why it isn't a retcon. I'm interested in your opinion.


Ok, here is a general response.

Regarding Kurama.
1- We know Since Hiruzen's battle at least that Minato used SF to seal Kurama. And since then, we know that the SF seals that target into the user. When the First databook came out (at least) we learned that Minato used 3 seals to seal Kurama.

A: SF: Which as I said seals the target into the user.
B: The 4 elements seals on Naruto
C: Eight Trigram Divination Seal (which is basically using 2 of the 4 elements seal)

So, we know B & C were used on Naruto, but it was never said that A was used on Naruto as well.

2- Before Jiraiya battled Pain, he stated that Minato only sealed HALF of Kurama's chakra into Naruto. So, where was the second half?
That was since chapter 370 or so.

3- The Flashback came, and we have seen Minato literally sealing half of Kurama's chakra into himself.

So, why is using it after he was resurrected comes as a huge surprise exactly? Not only that, we have seen Kinkaku and Ginkaku
who got resurrected as well using Kurama's chakra when they only ate a little bit of him. But Minato who sealed half of it in himself
isn't suppose to be able to use it? What sense does that make?

Minato saying that he can use SF because he is not a host does not contradict anything. Yes, he was not a host prior, but he became one after that. Just like how any Jinchuuriki was not a host before he got a Bijuu sealed into him. That does not contradict anything.

As for SM it is not an asspull either in Minato's case. If anything were to be called as an asspull for having it they will be both Kabuto and Hashirama. And later Mitsuki as well. Yes, despite not having the slightest hint whatsoever, no one seems to call those having SM is an Asspull for some reason! 

All the indications were there from the start.

1- Minato was Jiraiya's favourite student (before Naruto) and he was a SM user.
2- Minato has a contract with the frogs
3- The frogs (including Fukasaku) knows about him.

Since 2008 (or whenever chapter (430-431) came) I was debating that Minato does have SM, and Fukasaku statement is meant to be
taken as Naruto surpassed his predecessors with SM, not meant to be taken as he is overall stronger than them. Especially since the battle did not even start at that point. Of course, people were disagreeing with me because as per usual, they need Kishi to spoon feed them everything because "If we don't see it, it does not exist". After many years, they were proven wrong (surprise surprise) and they started as if no one has ever seen that coming! 

Even when the chapter came out (when Minato used SM) I was gladly reminding them. I guess they learned which party was the fool one. 

So, if all the indications and hints were there from the start, how can it be called an Asspull? 


Neither of those is even close to being comparable to Obito's BS. Had Obito given both of his eyes to Kakashi, yes that would have been understandable. But the guy litterally came out of the dead! Now THAT is rubbish!

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Hitachi Uchiha (Aug 24, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Ok here is a general response.
> 
> Regarding Kurama.
> 1- We know Since Hiruzen's battle at least that Minato used SF to seal Kurama. And since then, we know that the SF seals that target into the user. When the First databook came out (at least) we learned that Minato used 3 seals to seal Kurama.
> ...


I agree with the sage mode stuff. I don't know how that's a retcon. But didn't Minato need to undergo training like Naruto did to use KCM?


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2017)

Hitachi Uchiha said:


> I agree with the sage mode stuff. I don't know how that's a retcon. But didn't Minato need to undergo training like Naruto did to use KCM?


Minato, from the start, was introduced to be a Genius and has a very rare talent. We already know that he was pretty good with chakra control from the start. So, why should he be like Naruto? 

It's like Kishi telling us "Boruto is extremely talented" and then he has him go the exact same way Naruto did to learn the Rasengan. 
You will complain that Kishi "talks the talks, but not walks the walk" 

That one on hand. On the other hand, generally speaking (in both this manga and others) if things have already been explained and shown in details, the writers will not go out of their way showing the exact same details and process for every single character who are using what has already been explained.

Naruto is the MC, and his stuff needs to be explained. We have seen it with Rasengan, SM, KCM, BM...etc etc. 
However, because the author had already explained those things with Naruto, he does not find it necessary to show them again with
other characters.  Hence, Minato, Boruto, and Konohamaru.

Likewise, Kishi showed the Susanoo in details with Sasuke. So, when it comes to the other, he just gave it to them directly (Kakashi)
Same goes with being the Juubi's host, we have seen it with Obito who was struggling with it. But Asspulldara was in control right away.

Even the Juubi itself, in order to transfer from the GM to the Juubi V1 it took dozens of chapters, and then from V1 to V2, and then from V2 to be more muscular and whatnot. However, when Asspulldara collected the Bijuus again, all of those things happened immediately, no? 

And the list goes on and on...


One example from other animes. 
See, Dragon Ball, when Goku first used his SS mode against Freeza, it felt like internity for him to achieve that. 
But then, Goten, Trunks, and those new fodders from the other universe achived it in literally no time. 

It simply how things go. Would you have preferred it better if we had to go through 20 chapters or so for him to master it?
and see the exact same process all over again?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Ultrafragor (Aug 24, 2017)

Isn't it a retcon for the yin half of kurama and the yang half to exist separately as they did? 

When Minato died, his bijuu half should have added back to Naruto's or been reborn in the wild like when a normal jinchuriki dies.

Instead it was brought back from the dead, sealed in Naruto, then recombine later with the half that had been extracted from Naruto into the Gedo mazo.


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## Marsala (Aug 24, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> Isn't it a retcon for the yin half of kurama and the yang half to exist separately as they did?
> 
> When Minato died, his bijuu half should have added back to Naruto's or been reborn in the wild like when a normal jinchuriki dies.
> 
> Instead it was brought back from the dead, sealed in Naruto, then recombine later with the half that had been extracted from Naruto into the Gedo mazo.



That wasn't a retcon; Minato specifically sealed only half of it within himself because attempting to seal all of it would have failed and caused it to respawn in the wild. The real retcon was Kishimoto changing it to Minato splitting the Kyuubi instead of sealing all of it inside Naruto. I guess he wanted to reconcile Minato using the Death God Seal with the Kyuubi winding up inside Naruto, which wasn't how it appeared to work when Hiruzen used it; he also may have been planning ahead for a way to let Naruto survive losing the Kyuubi.

But the biggest problem with Minato having the Kyuubi sealed inside himself when he came back is that Hiruzen did not still have Hashirama, Tobirama, and Orochimaru's arms inside himself after Orochimaru cut open the seal. Why didn't the Kyuubi escape from Minato, too? Plot hole!


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## Hitachi Uchiha (Aug 24, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Minato, from the start, was introduced to be a Genius and has a very rare talent. We already know that he was pretty good with chakra control from the start. So, why should he be like Naruto?
> 
> It's like Kishi telling us "Boruto is extremely talented" and then he has him go the exact same way Naruto did to learn the Rasengan.
> You will complain that Kishi "talks the talks, but not walks the walk"
> ...


There should have been some kind of indication as to when Minato mastered Kyuubi's power. When Hiruzen was revived he didn't have Hashirama + Tobirama + Orochimaru's abilities since he sealed them away inside him in P1.


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 24, 2017)

Minato having SM was expected to some extent as it was hinted numerous times through different statements. However, Minato breaking out KCM mode was an asspull to the max. You cant fucking deny that

Kishi in my opinion wrote himself into a corner with Minato/Tobirama as Tobirama war arc feats suggest he's easily in Minato's(alive) caliber.The whole bring back Tobirama "near" full power remarks(per himself and Madaras) then give Minato KCM to separate the two. Granted massive difference but still

We had a few moments when not at full power Tobirama out shined Minato who was brought back at full power and then some.

I do see Minato as the overall superior shinobi by a slight margin though

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2017)

Hasan said:


> *1)* Minato is not saying he can use Shiki Fuujin because he is not a host, rather he is saying that only Shiki Fuujin can seal the Kyuubi in non-host (i.e. non-jinchuuriki-type) like him. takL clarified it here:



What does this even mean? 
Are you saying all Jinchuurikis that have ever been made, where made by using the SF?
By that logic, no one else but Minato should have been made a host. lol

Also, with all due respect to takL that his opinion only. Not the translation in itself. 
So, just because he translate, does not necessarily mean we have to agree with his thought of the matter... 



Hasan said:


> *2)* As far Sage Mode is concerned:
> 
> *Gamabunta: *_Hey gramps, doesn't he remind you of those two?_
> *Fukasaku:* _Indeed... Naruto-boy has surpassed his predecessors._
> ...



Why would that remind him of Minato if there is no connection between them exactly?
And Fukasaku bringing Minato up on that page you posted is irrelevant. As it held no actual value to bring him up there...



Hitachi Uchiha said:


> There should have been some kind of indication as to when Minato mastered Kyuubi's power. When Hiruzen was revived he didn't have Hashirama + Tobirama + Orochimaru's abilities since he sealed them away inside him in P1.



At the end of the day, Kurama's chakra is only a chakra.
Even B was said to have mastered it right off the bat as well. Naruto's control of chakra simply wasn't good enough.

- I am aware of that problem. Although I guess the only explanation I have is possibly that Hiruzen sealed their "Souls"
where Minato sealed just the "chakra" in itself rather the "soul" Although that a shot in the dark I guess.

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## Hasan (Aug 24, 2017)

Hussain said:


> What does this even mean?
> Are you saying all Jinchuurikis that have ever been made, where made by using the SF?
> By that logic, no one else but Minato should have been made a host. lol


Did you read takL's translation and commentary? When Minato says that it requires Shiki Fuujin to seal in a non-Jinchuuriki, he means his body is incompatible:



takL said:


> it has to do with his body not being jinchurikis, not with the jutsu.



Review his third post again:


takL said:


> Nope. he doesnt say that.
> its more like that shiki fujin is the only jutsu that can seal 9b in a non-Jinchuuriki like him.
> 
> he says what he can do in order to take kyuubi with him is to use shikifujin.
> ...



Two, his body is unable to withstand the sheer weight that Kyuubi's chakra imposed on it, when he performs the seal. 



> Why would that remind him of Minato if there is no connection between them exactly?
> And Fukasaku bringing Minato up on that page you posted is irrelevant. As it held no actual value to bring him up there...


Well, what exactly is the connection between BM Naruto and Minato that it reminded Kakashi of him?


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2017)

Marsala said:


> Hiruzen is called the Professor who know every jutsu in Konoha.
> 
> Hiraishin was invented by Hiruzen's sensei Tobirama and used by his student's student and successor as Hokage.
> 
> ...


Is there any evidence Hiruzen doesn't know FTG? He probably does know it, but can only us it the way the Hokage Guards can with a group of people. Or because it was not really explained why the Guards could only do it in a group, if it's due to the amount of chakra FTG requires, then perhaps Hiruzen in his Old-age simply could not use it frequently enough to make it practical in most cases. Or if it's a skill thing, then he was simply less skillful at that specific art then Minato and Tobirama.


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Did you read takL's translation and commentary? When Minato says that it requires Shiki Fuujin to seal in a non-Jinchuuriki, he means his body is incompatible:


What is "non-Jinchuuriki" type? Where in the manga did you read something like that? 
1- SF is not "the only" jutsu to seal Kurama. Hence, how Kurama was sealed in both Kushina & Mito without it.
2- SF was good for the situation because it can split Kurama up. 

The things between the parenthesis is his own opinion. I don't see how you use an opinion/thought as a proof. lol 

But either way, that part of the manga was really just for plot-sake. That's why it does not make much sense. Kushina could have
simply sealed Kurama inside of her and survived, and the whole problem would have been solved. It's a perfect example of PIS. 



> Two, his body is unable to withstand the sheer weight that Kyuubi's chakra imposed on it, when he performs the seal.


ok? 
Sasuke suffered much more when Oro gave him the CS. Did that mean he could not use the CS after that? 



> Well, what exactly is the connection between BM Naruto and Minato that it reminded Kakashi of him?


The speed obviously.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Troyse22 (Aug 24, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Is there any evidence Hiruzen doesn't know FTG? He probably does know it

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## Monty Burns (Aug 24, 2017)

@Hitachi Uchiha

1. 

2. Minato used RDS to seal away Yin Kyuubi inside of him.

3. Therefore Minato had no choice but to subdue the Kyuubi. This is why when he was revived he was able to use KCM because he had already defeated Yin Kyuubi similar to how Naruto defeated Yang Kyuubi.

4. As for Sage Mode, there were many hints as to why Minato would have it. It was foreshadowed by Fukasaku (a long time ago) when he stated that Naruto surpassed those before him. This statement wouldn't make sense unless Minato had learned Sage Mode and it also shows that Fukasaku and Minato knew each other. [1] [2]

5. Minato is Jiraiya's top student. Why would Jiraiya give Minato heaps of praise about him being an unparalleled genius if he didn't even learn Sage Mode?

6. Minato also achieved perfect Sage Mode like Naruto, so how did Naruto surpass him you may ask? Well Naruto was able to balance the the natural energy perfectly unlike Jiraiya, and he was able to knead enough natural energy to last him a long time unlike Minato.

It's pretty simply to be honest. Basically, it seems like the only people whining about KCM + SM Minato being an "asspull" are those who just simply dislike the idea of Minato getting a power up, which is ridiculous.

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## Ultrafragor (Aug 24, 2017)

Marsala said:


> That wasn't a retcon; Minato specifically sealed only half of it within himself because attempting to seal all of it would have failed and caused it to respawn in the wild. The real retcon was Kishimoto changing it to Minato splitting the Kyuubi instead of sealing all of it inside Naruto. I guess he wanted to reconcile Minato using the Death God Seal with the Kyuubi winding up inside Naruto, which wasn't how it appeared to work when Hiruzen used it; he also may have been planning ahead for a way to let Naruto survive losing the Kyuubi.
> 
> But the biggest problem with Minato having the Kyuubi sealed inside himself when he came back is that Hiruzen did not still have Hashirama, Tobirama, and Orochimaru's arms inside himself after Orochimaru cut open the seal. Why didn't the Kyuubi escape from Minato, too? Plot hole!



A tailed beast is supposed to die when it's jinchuriki dies.

So, either that fact is a retcon or Minato still having the tailed beast as an edo Tensei is a retcon.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 24, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> A tailed beast is supposed to die when it's jinchuriki dies.
> 
> So, either that fact is a retcon or Minato still having the tailed beast as an edo Tensei is a retcon.



A tailed beast dies temporarily when its Jin dies, just an fyi


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## Blu-ray (Aug 24, 2017)

Turrin said:


> I have to disagree with you. Looking at the manga holistically, any time-period we have solid details on the Hokage appears to be the greatest of the Gokage, during that period. For example Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, and Naruto, are all very clearly the greatest of the Gokage during their reign as Hokage. The only one you could argue is Tsunade, but I think while Tsunade was no the greatest fighter, *she was overall the greatest of the 5 Gokage due to her support capabilities, *which fits considering she is first and foremost a medical expert. We see this in the Madara battle, she gets outshined by Onoki in offensive might, but *ultimately she is the one that saves the Gokage's lives multiple times through her Medical Ninjutsu and support capabilities.*


_Onoki _was the backbone of the Gokage when it came to support though, not Tsunade. Her team support amounts to:

healing Gaara and Onoki before the fight started
providing chakra for the Jinton in their final combination attack (and all the Gokage contributed with Onoki being the crux of it)
smacking away Madara's final Katon assault (and even then Onoki, Gaara and Mei provided team defense more frequently)
Healing them after Madara was done(but the battle was over by that point anyway.)
Onoki on the other hand:

Rescued Ay from getting killed by using his golem
Released him from genjutsu
Combo'd with Ay with  his weightrock and lightweightrock
Destroyed the pollen that knocked everyone else out
Provided defense with his Golem
Was pretty much the core of their final assault
Tsunade spent the vast majority of the fight healing only herself and trying to brute force her way through Susano'o, not supplementing the others, while Onoki literally and metaphorically carried Ay the entire fight by augmenting his powers with his own. Even Gaara gave Tsunade a run for her money in the support department by making platforms and shields, even saving Mei's life.


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## Hitachi Uchiha (Aug 24, 2017)

@Monty Burns I concede the point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Aug 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Both had different purposes, with Jiraiya's role being directly related to the main character of the manga, of course he's going to be more relevant, the Akatsuki were the main villains, but all of them have had significantly less panel time than Jiraiya.
> 
> Obito used Kisame because he knew of Kisame's fixation on a world without lies, which Obito promised to create. Kisame straight up fucked off on the Akatsuki when Itachi died (although he still wore the robes, signifying that he would come to their aid when needed and he was still loyal to their cause)
> 
> ...


That is seriously the first post from you about Jiraiya that doesn't sound like a letter from the kkk to Barack Obama.

OT: Kisame is a cool char to me and definitely one of the best Akatsuki back stories by far, but his main purpose was rival and foil to Maito Gai. That rivalry was cool as he'll to me.
But he is not really more significant than Hidan and Kakuzu were because of it.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> That rivalry was cool as he'll to me.



Always disliked their rivalry (although Might Gai is one my favorite Shinobi). I get that the whole Gai not remembering Kisame was supposed to be a knock on Gai's memory and a joke, but it was annoying.



Hi no Ishi said:


> But he is not really more significant than Hidan and Kakuzu were because of it.



Captured Roshi, arguably the strongest jin besides Bee and Naruto, the anime even gave us the treat of watching the canonically off paneled battle I think 

Considered the only Akatsuki member "Strong enough to be paired with Itachi" obviously besides Pein and Obito, not even Orochimaru received that kind of praise, in fact Oro was known as the dude constantly bitched by Itachi 

Considered by Obito to be the only he trusts
Considered by Obito to be even above Pein, considering he trusted Kisame with the capture of the Hachibi solo, something that ordinarily takes two Akatsuki members. Even Konan was with Pein when he went to capture a jin, not only that but the Hachibi was canonically stronger than Naruto at this time.
Last standing Akatsuki members and got tons of intel back to the Akatsuki on the allied shinobi forces.


Kisame was much, much more significant than Hidan or Kakuzu, and the comparison tells us that.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Veracity (Aug 25, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> _Onoki _was the backbone of the Gokage when it came to support though, not Tsunade. Her team support amounts to:
> 
> healing Gaara and Onoki before the fight started
> providing chakra for the Jinton in their final combination attack (and all the Gokage contributed with Onoki being the crux of it)
> ...



Tsunade was also shown healing Mei in a panel and was implied multiple times to have been healing the Kage off panel. I doubt Kishi would waste time showing Tsunade healing the Gokage every time it happened, so her usefulness was much higher than what you are implying. You also ignored when her and Ay appeared in front of Madara/Muu to kick them away and when Tsunade lead an assault to smash Madara before the Kage were feinted.  Mad downplay to even begin to compare Gaara to Tsunade in the supplementary department as Tsunade was the reason Mei, Gaara and Onoki could fight in the first page.

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## Blu-ray (Aug 25, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Tsunade was also shown healing Mei in a panel


Mind showing me that panel? Cause I looked over that fight multiple times and saw no such thing. Her only instances of healing where Gaara and Onoki before the fight and healing them again after Madara had his way with them.



> and was implied multiple times to have been healing the Kage off panel. I doubt Kishi would waste time showing Tsunade healing the Gokage every time it happened,


Don't recall that being implied either. They emphasize the importance of their medic, but then she goes off to fight 5 Susano'o clones on her own, and there was no need for any of them to be healed prior to her using Byakugo.



> so her usefulness was much higher than what you are implying.


All I said was that Onoki provided more support overall than she did, which isn't the same as saying she contributed little or nothing at all.



> You also ignored when her and Ay appeared in front of Madara/Muu to kick them away and when Tsunade lead an assault to smash Madara before the Kage were feinted.


Neither of these things are "providing support" to the other Kage. It was simply attacking normally.



> Mad downplay to even begin to compare Gaara to Tsunade in the supplementary department


Gaara shielded them from the Magatama, carried them above the pollen, and most importantly saved Mei from being impaled. Saving a fellow Kage's life alone makes him more than comparable.




> as Tsunade was the reason Mei, Gaara and Onoki could fight in the first page.


Mei jumped into the fray as soon as she got there. Only Gaara and Ohnoki were healed and I already gave Tsunade credit for that.


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## Veracity (Aug 25, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> Mind showing me that panel? Cause I looked over that fight multiple times and saw no such thing. Her only instances of healing where Gaara and Onoki before the fight and healing them again after Madara had his way with them.
> 
> 
> Don't recall that being implied either. They emphasize the importance of their medic, but then she goes off to fight 5 Susano'o clones on her own, and there was no need for any of them to be healed prior to her using Byakugo.
> ...



She was healing Mei here.

She did a fair amount of healing anyway having healed Onoki, Gaara and Mei. But it was pretty much implied seeing how Mei thought Madara planned on taking Tsunade down first cause she was a medical ninja and Madara stated that it was foolish of Tsunade to take him head on because And so much emphasis was placed on Tsunade not dying first, which would have been odd if she only healed them once.

You omitted some of her accomplishments, which is what I was correcting you on.

Onoki, Gaara and Naruto were all running on fumes and would have most likely been killed if it wasn't for Ay and Tsunade intervening at that moment so yes it is support.  Tsunade leading the Gokage with her will of fire is akin to Onoki boosting their morale for that final attack.

Which pales drastically when put beside saving the Kage from Madara/Mu's intial attack along side Ay, healing Onoki/Gaara, healing Mei, leading a charge against Madara, any off panel healing, super charging Jinton, batting away the Katon, and ultimately saving their lives at the end. Gaara was not even close to as much as support as Tsunade. That is outright downplay on her part.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Hasan (Aug 25, 2017)

Hussain said:


> What is "non-Jinchuuriki" type? Where in the manga did you read something like that?
> 1- SF is not "the only" jutsu to seal Kurama. Hence, how Kurama was sealed in both Kushina & Mito without it.
> 2- SF was good for the situation because it can split Kurama up.


Those, whose bodies are unsuitable to host a bijuu, like Killer Bee's predecessor [], who died shortly afterwards []. Not everyone can, which is why Kushina was brought to Konoha [], and those who tried to replicate Kinkaku and Ginkaku's stunt, died [] without becoming jinchuuriki, prompting the Raikage to guess if the brothers descended from Hagoromo. . .

. . . Shiki Fuujin, then, is only jutsu that can seal the Kyuubi inside someone like Minato, whose body is otherwise, unsuitable to host it.



> The things between the parenthesis is his own opinion. I don't see how you use an opinion/thought as a proof. lol


Hardly, since Minato is making that point in relation to sealing only half of the Kyuubi inside himself, while Kushina was willing to seal the whole and die with it. It is physically impossible for _Minato, _while Mito, KJ



> But either way, that part of the manga was really just for plot-sake. That's why it does not make much sense. Kushina could have
> simply sealed Kurama inside of her and survived, and the whole problem would have been solved. It's a perfect example of PIS.


Or they are not omniscient? I suppose, you realize by now the story demands Minato being incompetent in many ways to work.


> ok?
> Sasuke suffered much more when Oro gave him the CS. Did that mean he could not use the CS after that?


_*Minato:* "My body's gone numb. . . I can't believe how heavy his chakra is. . ."_

Curse Seal ≠ Bijuu-chakra, the latter of which not everyone can contain. Minato explicitly commented on the quality of the chakra, and his inability to contain it fully earlier.



> The speed obviously.


How did you come to the conclusion, it is Sage Mode then?  That is, Naruto intercepting the bijuu is his speed at work, but Naruto intercepting Shuradou is _somehow_ Sage Mode, when he arrived at Konoha—Sage Mode activated. What excuse have you, for the ? It is something _Naruto doing something in response_, that is reminding others of Minato. This has nothing with modes, or Rasengans in themselves. One can easily gather Naruto being gutsy in that scene, and it would make far more sense.

*Pain:* _I have no need of you (Tsunade). . . The one I seek. . ._
*Naruto:* _. . . is ME! / The Konoha's Hokage has no business dealing in with the likes of them. . . / You just sit tight, and sip some tea, granny. . ._

I reviewed the page, from the perspective angle the panel is drawn, this is _Tsunade_ seeing the image of two in Naruto, while Bunta is only making a comment.



Monty Burns said:


> @Hitachi Uchiha
> 
> 1.


Continue onto the next page, which shows . They are not _literally_ fighting that would somehow contribute to Minato gaining experience points in training.


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## hbcaptain (Aug 25, 2017)

Pa&Ma/Senjutsu existence : Bunta was the *strongest *toad, *the boss* of toads, even Jiraya was afraid of and lacking control over him, DB1 or 2 also stated he is a proof of Minato's strengh.
Meaning Fukasaku&Shima wasn't even exisisting in P1, and thus it's the same for Senjutsu. In other words, P1 Jiraya's strongest form is himself on top of Bunta's head which only happen very occasionnaly.

Kisame's standing : Kisame said he was completly outclassed and he can't even tilt the balance in a battle between Itachi and Jiraya, however in P2 he was portrayed being as strong as a Bijuu. Furthermore, since Boss summons are extremely relevant in a Sannin battle, themselves weaker than a Bijuu then obviously Kisame is no longer such a weakling even tho he is still notably weaker than Jiraya.

Hashirama&Tobirama : Senju bros weren't in a weackned state in P1 it's just happens even Old Hiruzen was stronger than them individually in P1 plot and that's it.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## theRonin (Aug 25, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Well, what exactly is the connection between BM Naruto and Minato that it reminded Kakashi of him?


Maybe the speed, the cloak. The seal on the clock which looked like the kanji written on Minato clock


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## Knyght (Aug 25, 2017)

If Minato was meant to have Sage Mode, Kishimoto did a remarkably poor job of showing it.

There's no mention of Minato in the senjutsu training arc even though we knew he was Jiraiya's student, a toad summoner and Naruto's father at that stage. Fukasaku only ever mentions Jiraiya's frog aspects in Sage Mode, only Jiraiya and Naruto having the chakra for it, Naruto being quicker yet dumber than Jiraiya, and Naruto potentially being a better sage than Jiraiya.

Then, once it's discovered that only senjutsu works on a Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki, Minato thinks that Naruto mastered Jiraiya's senjutsu despite supposedly having said senjutsu himself and his Sage Mode being identical to Naruto's in appearance. And instead of trying to create senjutsu chakra himself - or trying to summon the Great Sage Toads with the wealth of chakra at his disposal - despite how much standing around he'd been doing at that point, he specifically tells Naruto to add it to his Rasengan. From then, it takes about 20 chapters before Minato tries it himself.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## Hasan (Aug 25, 2017)

theRonin said:


> Maybe the speed, the cloak. The seal on the clock which looked like the kanji written on Minato clock


Like I said, if it is speed, cloak etc. then what prompts the 'Bunta and Fukasaku were talking about Sage Mode' response? _Speed and cloak_ are very much prominent even in that scene, yet it is Sage Mode in that scene, but not Bijuu Mode in other one? It is the _reminiscent of Minato's style vibe_ that is prominent in each.



knight504 said:


> If Minato was meant to have Sage Mode, Kishimoto did a remarkably poor job of showing it.
> 
> There's no mention of Minato in the senjutsu training arc even though we knew he was Jiraiya's student, a toad summoner and Naruto's father at that stage. Fukasaku only ever mentions Jiraiya's frog aspects in Sage Mode, only Jiraiya and Naruto having the chakra for it, Naruto being quicker yet dumber than Jiraiya, and Naruto potentially being a better sage than Jiraiya.
> 
> Then, once it's discovered that only senjutsu works on a Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki, Minato thinks that Naruto mastered Jiraiya's senjutsu despite supposedly having said senjutsu himself and his Sage Mode being identical to Naruto's in appearance. And instead of trying to create senjutsu chakra himself - or trying to summon the Great Sage Toads with the wealth of chakra at his disposal - despite how much standing around he'd been doing at that point, he specifically tells Naruto to add it to his Rasengan. From then, it takes about 20 chapters before Minato tries it himself.


This should be preserved for future references.


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## Monty Burns (Aug 25, 2017)

knight504 said:


> There's no mention of Minato in the senjutsu training arc even though we knew he was Jiraiya's student, a toad summoner and Naruto's father at that stage. Fukasaku only ever mentions Jiraiya's frog aspects in Sage Mode, only Jiraiya and Naruto having the chakra for it, Naruto being quicker yet dumber than Jiraiya, and Naruto potentially being a better sage than Jiraiya.


1. Well the reason for Naruto learning Sage Mode was to defeat Pain and hence avenge Jiraiya. Mentioning Minato would be irrelevant in that kind of situation.

2. Why would Fukusaku compare a perfect Sage (Naruto) to a perfect Sage (Minato), it wouldn't make sense. He was comparing Naruto to Jiraiya because he couldn't achieve perfect Sage Mode (like Naruto and Minato).

3. Later on when Naruto had arrived to fight Pain, Fukusaku compared Naruto to his predecessors (Jiraiya and Minato) in how he surpassed both of them. How did he surpass them both? Well Naruto was able to *balance the natural energy perfectly* unlike Jiraiya and he was *able to knead enough natural energy to last him a long time* unlike Minato.

4. Teamwork!?????



knight504 said:


> Then, once it's discovered that only senjutsu works on a Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki, Minato thinks that Naruto mastered Jiraiya's senjutsu despite supposedly having said senjutsu himself and his Sage Mode being identical to Naruto's in appearance. And instead of trying to create senjutsu chakra himself - or trying to summon the Great Sage Toads with the wealth of chakra at his disposal - despite how much standing around he'd been doing at that point, he specifically tells Naruto to add it to his Rasengan. From then, it takes about 20 chapters before Minato tries it himself.


I'll admit Minato saying "he mastered Jiraiya's senjutsu" was a bit iffy. Though he could've said it because Sage Mode wasn't his forte. But why would Minato need to enter Sage Mode when...

1. Minato has a superior, longer, efficient and larger source of natural energy in Naruto *right next to him.*

2. Minato isn't good at Senjutsu as he admitted himself. It would be a waste of time summoning the Elder Sages or entering it himself.

3. Minato cannot knead enough natural energy unlike Naruto so there'd be no point in him even trying.

4. The only reason Minato entered Sage Mode 20 chapters later is because *he was the* *only source *of natural energy at the time and he had no choice but to use it.



Hasan said:


> Continue onto the next page, which shows . They are not _literally_ fighting that would somehow contribute to Minato gaining experience points in training.


That in no way shape or form disproves what Hiruzen said. Nothing at all in manga disproves what Hiruzen said.



Hasan said:


> Like I said, if it is speed, cloak etc. then what prompts the 'Bunta and Fukasaku were talking about Sage Mode' response? _Speed and cloak_ are very much prominent even in that scene, yet it is Sage Mode in that scene, but not Bijuu Mode in other one? It is the _reminiscent of Minato's style vibe_ that is prominent in each.


1. 2 completely different things. Naruto's speed was always compared to Minato's. That's why it was compared to Minato's in that scene.

2. Fukusaku compared Naruto to Jiraiya and Minato because he *indeed did surpass them both in the art of Senjutsu.* Naruto could knead enough natural energy unlike Minato, and he could balance the natural energy perfectly unlike Jiraiya.

3. Besides, everything hinted to Minato having Sage Mode. He could summon Gamabunta and Gerotora (who was a rare species from Mount Myoboku himself).

4. His sensei was renowned as the Toad Sage.

5. Minato was a genius. It would make no sense if Minato had a contract with the frogs, his sensei was a Sage, yet him not being able to master Sage Mode himself.

Anyway I'm tired now. Was good debating with you guys about Minato's retcon not.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Hi no Ishi (Aug 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Always disliked their rivalry (although Might Gai is one my favorite Shinobi). I get that the whole Gai not remembering Kisame was supposed to be a knock on Gai's memory and a joke, but it was annoying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can understand that,b someone forgetting my favorite char it would probably bother me a bit too.



Troyse22 said:


> Captured Roshi, arguably the strongest jin besides Bee and Naruto, the anime even gave us the treat of watching the canonically off paneled battle I think
> 
> Considered the only Akatsuki member "Strong enough to be paired with Itachi" obviously besides Pein and Obito, not even Orochimaru received that kind of praise, in fact Oro was known as the dude constantly bitched by Itachi


We have no real idea how strong Roshi was compared to Han, Gaara, Fu, etc.

But temperament and balance were more a factor in pairing decisions,
Kisame was matched with the other person in the group who knew what it was like to kill those he was close to as seen in their intro to each other.
Oro was paired with the other guy who was into self transformation and body modifications.
The Artists are the artists and the Zombi Kombi was explained ad nauseam.

"Strong enough to be paired with Itachi" is not in the manga unless I'm mistaken.



Troyse22 said:


> Considered by Obito to be the only he trusts
> Considered by Obito to be even above Pein, considering he trusted Kisame with the capture of the Hachibi solo, something that ordinarily takes two Akatsuki members. Even Konan was with Pein when he went to capture a jin, not only that but the Hachibi was canonically stronger than Naruto at this time.
> Last standing Akatsuki members and got tons of intel back to the Akatsuki on the allied shinobi forces.
> 
> ...



Who else was left at that point? Zetsu?

Any way he sent Pain to take on the strongest Village and it's Jinchuriki at the same time. 

That's a lot harder than going after a dude who was on the run from his own village and using hostages to paint him into a corner.

Hidan and Kakuzu got their own whole arc, killed the thirds son, forced ino-shika-cho to grow up, nearly killed 2 teams, and were Naruto and Shikamaru's "bridge to cross" they were in no conceivable way less important, and had butt loads more screen time to prove it.

Each Akatsuki member added something to the series in their own way, and Kisame is no exception but he wasn't really shown to be anymore important than the rest.


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## The_Conqueror (Aug 25, 2017)

When the fuck did obito consider kisame to be over pain when he called Pain "invinscible"

Obito trusted Kisame because he was loyal not because he was powerful and agreed with the plan of infinite tsukyomi.

When taking a great Nation head on Pain was trusted not kisame. Unlike konoha "Village hidden in clouds kept their jinchuriki isolated making it easier for Kisame. 
Even then was specifically told to gather Intel


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## Troyse22 (Aug 25, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I can understand that,b someone forgetting my favorite char it would probably bother me a bit to




No it's that it made their rivalry seem not serious, it made the whole thing a joke.



Hi no Ishi said:


> We have no real idea how strong Roshi was compared to Han, Gaara, Fu, etc.



YCM puts him above these guys 

Not only that but from what I remember Roshi had friendly relations with his Bijuu, considering he knew its name. It's possible that much like Naruto he could draw on his Bijuus Chakra when needed despite not being a perfect Jin.

Roshi was the third strongest Jin at that time



Hi no Ishi said:


> But temperament and balance were more a factor in pairing decisions,
> Kisame was matched with the other person in the group who knew what it was like to kill those he was close to as seen in their intro to each other.
> Oro was paired with the other guy who was into self transformation and body modifications.
> The Artists are the artists and the Zombi Kombi was explained ad nauseam.
> ...



Fair enough, I concede that point.

And Yamato stated this after Kisame kills himself to my recall.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Any way he sent Pain to take on the strongest Village and it's Jinchuriki at the same time



The capturing of Naruto, destroying the village was something Nagato decided on a whim due to his hatred of Konoha, something Pein himself notes to Naruto.



Hi no Ishi said:


> That's a lot harder than going after a dude who was on the run from his own village and using hostages to paint him into a corner.



Nah, Killer Bee could likely beat Pein. Kisame and Obito were also unaware that Killer Bee had people with him.

The Hachibi notes that Kisame is faster than him underwater. Even if Bee didn't have people with him Kisame would.have eventually caught him.and the same result would.have occured. 

Sorry about the periods, phone is retarded.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Hidan and Kakuzu got their own whole arc, killed the thirds son, forced ino-shika-cho to grow up, nearly killed 2 teams, and were Naruto and Shikamaru's "bridge to cross" they were in no conceivable way less important, and had butt loads more screen time to prove it.



Because giving Itachi and Kisame their own arc would be ridiculous, having chunin kill them would be absolutely insane and send fans (mainly Itachi fans) into a riot. Kishi didn't give Kisame and Itachi their own arc because he'd have to have them fight people stronger than Pein, which simply didn't exist at the time prior to Itachis death bar 8g Gai

You think Kisame and Itachi can't kill a couple of chunin teams? 

One murdered the entire Uchiha clan and the other wiped out his Intel division and his sensei. Both are capable of handling chunin LMFAO



Hi no Ishi said:


> Each Akatsuki member added something to the series in their own way, and Kisame is no exception but he wasn't really shown to be anymore important than the rest.




So wrong on so many levels.

Kisame got so much Intel back to Obito from turtle Island that alone puts him way above Kakuzu and Hidan in importance

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Hasan (Aug 25, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> That in no way shape or form disproves what Hiruzen said. Nothing at all in manga disproves what Hiruzen said.


Of course not. Who said anything about disproving Hiruzen? The scene is only showing what he actually meant, when he said the caster and the sealed 'tangle and battle each other with hatred'. He never meant 'battle' in conventional sense that you are somehow using as proof to legitimize Minato's usage of Kyuubi Mode, because. . . well, we see them 'battling' right after he says it.



> 1. 2 completely different things. Naruto's speed was always compared to Minato's. That's why it was compared to Minato's in that scene.


Naruto intercepting the five biju: Speed.
Naruto intercepting Shuradou: Sage Mode

You are deviating from your principle here, when you should be –by rule– positing Kyuubi Mode for the first one too. I am not at all oblivious to the speed-comparisons; merely pointing out that, for other parallels, you are fine rolling with the _*Minato-vibes*_, but isolating this one as _*Minato's jutsu*_.



> 2. Fukusaku compared Naruto to Jiraiya and Minato because he *indeed did surpass them both in the art of Senjutsu.* Naruto could knead enough natural energy unlike Minato, and he could balance the natural energy perfectly unlike Jiraiya.


Fukasaku made a general statement, in response to Bunta's surprise (just like Kakashi was surprised, and others). He did not make a comment for the sake of commenting on Naruto's Sage Mode specifically, for he commented enough during the training that Naruto was better.

*Bunta: *_Gramps. . . Doesn't he remind you of those two?_
*Pa: *_Indeed. . . [Naruto-boy has surpassed his predecessors]._



> 3. Besides, everything hinted to Minato having Sage Mode. He could summon Gamabunta and Gerotora (who was a rare species from Mount Myoboku himself).
> 
> 4. His sensei was renowned as the Toad Sage.
> 
> 5. Minato was a genius. It would make no sense if Minato had a contract with the frogs, his sensei was a Sage, yet him not being able to master Sage Mode himself.


None of which is proof that Minato's Sage Mode was hinted at.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Aug 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> YCM puts him above these guys
> Not only that but from what I remember Roshi had friendly relations with his Bijuu, considering he knew its name. It's possible that much like Naruto he could draw on his Bijuus Chakra when needed despite not being a perfect Jin.
> Ooo
> Roshi was the third strongest Jin at that time


 I understand why you feel like that, but Son Goku announces his name and is super proud of it. I can't imagine he didn't tell Roshi it at any point in their fight.

Also again it's just another thing we don't know definitively.



Troyse22 said:


> The capturing of Naruto, destroying the village was something Nagato decided on a whim due to his hatred of Konoha, something Pein himself notes to Naruto.


Pain was sent to get him from Konoha though. It's not like Obito thought he wouldnt have to fight. 



Troyse22 said:


> Nah, Killer Bee could likely beat Pein. Kisame and Obito were also unaware that Killer Bee had people with him.
> 
> The Hachibi notes that Kisame is faster than him underwater. Even if Bee didn't have people with him Kisame would.have eventually caught him.and the same result would.have occured.
> 
> Sorry about the periods, phone is retarded.


 I also think that Killer B would smash Pain.
Just not while Pain was using hostages and not while B can't transform.

He also just said Kisame is faster not is faster than him. He just couldn't get out because the water was moving too.  

And I feel ya man. auto correct and random puctuation make me crazy sometimes.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 30, 2017)

theRonin said:


> Uh. When did this happen?



He cited his own space-time jutsu and the second's. 



Troyse22 said:


> *Without PiS playing a factor, Kisame cannot logically lose.*
> 
> Hes never shown abilities that beat Kisame



So Kisame's gonna overcome Doton, just like that. 



> He'll never prep frog song
> Goemon meets Daikodan
> Needle Jizo gets blocked by Samehada



Obviously you're just name dropping without considering how an actual battle would go. Kisame's dumb enough to fall for all stalling tactics Jiraiya will use to pull off the frog song.

So if Ninjutsu won't work on a giant shark, Fukasaku and Shima may just use natural energy to sharpen their tongues and go right through Daikodan and slice up Kisame.

Yes, block needle jizo. In the meantime, Jiraiya will slap a Rasengan on Kisame or use a crazy Katon while Samehada is focused on _hair._



> CQC, Kisame>Jiraiya



I don't thin Kisame can rival SM strength.



> I want you to answer this, what exactly is impressive about the Sannin title? They got it for not dying immediately to Hanzo, people need to stop shitposting.



Apparently not dying to Hanzo is better than being a swordman, or even better than Kisame's own rep as per Kisame himself.



> Wonder what would happen to any of the paths if they were hit by that, considering Preta died to 1 punch



We saw Bee hit a dead body with that... that shroud got absorbed. If Kisame can survive, a dead body can. In fact, an Edo body, which didn't even turn to dust survived and countered that. 

So I'll restate: Kisame has never faced anyone close to Pain's power. Gai's probably the closest, but that's a bad example since Kisame got owned. In fact... with Bee, Kisame got owned again and only survived because Bee had to protect Sabo and Ponta. So by trying to say Kisame was on a high level, you proved he only gets owned by the same people who'd own Jiraiya. 



> By P2 Kishi had the Rinnegan figured out, you're reaching here.



I don't think the guy who honestly thinks Kisame's reflexes are on par to Juubidara's can talk about reaching. Kishi didn't even have the Rinnegan's design sorted out till about their second/third gathering in part 2, let alone its powers.


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## Ultrafragor (Aug 30, 2017)

I feel like the Senju and Uchiha being able to control the Gedo Mazo was a retconned concept or abandoned idea.

Earlier in the story, it makes sense that a person with Rinne powers could control the empty juubi shell due to its link with the Sage.

However, now that the Juubi was revealed to be Kaguya, it doesn't make any since why Rinne powers gives you access to or control of the Juubi. It's its own person. Can you move your family member's bodies because your chakra is similar? No


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