# what level is KN4 naruto?



## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

ill put him up against low level kage to high level. 

location: open field 
distance: 25m 
restrictions: none
mindset: everyone is blood lusted

low kage level: hiashi (yes my fave)
mid kage level: MS sasuke
high kage level: Sandaime raikage

He is mid if he can beat hiashi but either draw or loose to sasuke. 
he is high kage if he can beat Ms sasuke but either draw or loose to sandaime. 

I dont believe he can beat sandaime though.


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## Ghost (Apr 6, 2015)

Top of low Kage perhaps? Although KN4 can use Bijuudama. Probably mid kage.


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## Legendary Itachi (Apr 6, 2015)

How the hell MS Sasuke is Mid-Kage. 

He vaporizes Hiashi no difficulty, loses to the other 2 though.


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

why would he vaporise hiashi no difficulty?
who says he resorts to BD off the bat. and bar that nothing he has is even remotely threatening 

MS sasuke is mid kage level. cuz those like minato and sandaime are high kage level. thats why i put him there high kage level would imply he can beat all 5 kage in 1 on 1 battles which he cant. 

KN4 for me is highest of the low any mid to high kage level casually beats it


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## Ghost (Apr 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> why would he vaporise hiashi no difficulty?
> who says he resorts to BD off the bat. and bar that nothing he has is even remotely threatening



KN4 blitzes Hiashi.


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## Kyu (Apr 6, 2015)

Sannin level.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 6, 2015)

Four tailed Naruto made Orochimaru's body and snakes erode on physical contact. That alone is potent enough for him to be rated at low Kage-level.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 6, 2015)

Rapes Hiashi.

50/50 on Sasuke. Danzo fight should win, Bee fight would lose.

3rd Raikage rapes.


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

fair enough i guess most think he is mid kage level. wont argue further
though i must ask why people think he can just move from point A to B and blitz hiashi before he can spin. its not like it takes alot to spin on oneself


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

MS-Sasuke isn't an entire tier weaker than Sandaime-Raikage, they are the same general "level". 

With that out of the way KN4 is automatically above Low-Kage, simply based on his performance against Jiraiya and Orochimaru. He nearly killed Jiraiya and Orochimaru couldn't do anything against him. Granted it was a Base-Jiraiya and Orochimaru was suffering some body failure, but even with those handicaps; Jiraiya and Orochimaru are still as strong or stronger than what I'd consider Low-Kage, I.E. SPII-Gaara, Yondaime-Kazekage, etc...

Even based on feats very few low-Kage have the necessary Jutsu to deal with KN4's Shroud and the few that do lack the defense to survive against KN4's speedy chakra arms and TBB.

Mid-Kages on average have better odds of winning against KN4 than losing tho. Characters like, Onoki, Mu, Gaara, Sandaime-Raikage, Jiriaya, Hiruzen, Kisame, Tsunade [Madara Fight Byakugo], Kakuzu, all have the fire-power necessary to take down KN4 and while TBB is still a threat to a-lot of them, they all ultimately will have better odds to survive TBB, than KN4 has to survive their attacks, since they have a brian and have greater versatility.

Granted there are a few Mid-Kage characters like Ei, Minato, Tobirama, Sasori, Orochimaru, Hanzo,and Nindaime-Mizukage, who may have more trouble dealing with KN4, as their fire power isn't that high. Though most of them have potential win-cards. Sasori and Hanzo have poison that can and probably will be breathed in by the mindless-KN4, especially Hanzo's; Orochimaru might also have some means of poisoning KN4. Minato's Rasen-Flash-Dance may be capable of bring the beast down, same with Hakke-Seal; worse comes to worse he ends it with Shiki Fuujin. Tobirama may be able to use Tandem Explosive Tags, depending on where you fall on the strength of his Edos or whether he can use them himself. Joki Boi might be able to blow it's way through the shroud, especially with multiple hits. 

Ei is probably the worse off with just physical strikes to try and break the through, but his strikes are stronger than anything KN4 has tanked in terms of blunt-force, so it's kind of opinion based whether he could eventually pound his way through the shroud or not, as he certainly has the speed to evade everything else and stamina to keep fighting KN4 for a very long time.

So I almost feel like KN4 is between Mid-Kage and Low-Kage, which makes some sense, because KN4 doesn't really exist by itself, rather it's a form of Start-Part II-Naruto can go. SPII-Naruto himself is probably Low-Kage, because even though he's willing to use KN, he doesn't usually go over KN1 unless seriously pushed, and most Low-Kage can deal with anything short of KN4 with varying degrees of difficulty.


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## Deer Lord (Apr 6, 2015)

Top of low kage.
If you want to be more precise he's on the borderline between low and mid kage.


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

@deer lord agreed. i wont solidify him as a mid 
granted from turrin speech it seems we all kind of have a different idea of what mid or low or high is 

to me high is minato and the likes. while pre god tier is hashirama and the likes

BD is a strong move however a mindless beast wont last long. even sasuke should beat it. quite simply, the sandaime low diffs.


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## Thunder (Apr 6, 2015)

KN4 Naruto is a bit better than your average low kage but I don't think he's mid kage level either.

So for me, KN4 is somewhere in between those tiers. Basically what Turrin said.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 6, 2015)

Isn't there a time limit for KN4 before Naruto's body gets too damaged?


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Isn't there a time limit for KN4 before Naruto's body gets too damaged?


No because he high speed regens the damage. It's just that his lifespan shortens from the constant regen


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## Bonly (Apr 6, 2015)

I'd rate him at mid Kage level as he fits in well with others around said level imo


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

@Bonly but there is no mid that he can take on and actually win though


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## Bonly (Apr 7, 2015)

As I told you before I base my ranking on "I look at their offense abilities, defense abilities, support abilities, teamwork potential, overall feats, and portrayal when I rank them." upon which he's around the same level as other mid Kage level people, who he can or can not beat isn't important to me, well not until the ranking for Top tier comes around.


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## Kai (Apr 7, 2015)

He's on the "Sannin level". Kishi had KN4 fight two members of the Sannin, shedding light on the Kyuubi's power at four tails, although both of those Sannin would likely win if they put their life on the line.


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## richard lewis (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Bonly but there is no mid that he can take on and actually win though



I'd say he's got a decent shot at beating the 5th hokage as well as Sasori, kakuzu, and trollkage.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 7, 2015)

I believe he's portrayed to be above most Low-Kage Ninja considering his performance against Orochimaru and hype from Jiraiya.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 8, 2015)

I have to agree with Turrin that MS Sasuke = Sandaime Raikage, they're close in power scale. 

I don't consider either of them High Kage level, there's a large list of mid-kage that can defeat him and he would not beat anyone I consider High Kage level.

That being said, he loses against MS Sasuke who lights him up with Enton. Unlike late War-Arc Naruto, KN4 Naruto is largely unintelligent and beastly, he wouldn't expand his cloak to get the flames off IMO. Now if this late War-arc Naruto in a KN4 chakra mode then he shits all over everyone here.

That being said you could argue Base Naruto was low-kage level at that point, considering he had mass bunshin capacity (2,000 in Part I), Gamabunta as a summon, Odama Rasengan and was at least somewhat close to Kakashi's level of speed at the time.

KN4 has him in raw speed, physical strength, ranged output (shockwaves & chakra arms) and durability that Base Naruto lacks. That being said, Base Naruto's 2,000 Bunshins, Odama Rasengan, Boss Summon, Unpredictability and Tactical Control make him a different type of fighter.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

@Davizwiz base naruto could absolutely not be argued to be low kage level at that point far far far from it
Mei the lowest of the kage. low diffs him 
asuma not even at that level could win. yh base naruto was jounin level at best


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 8, 2015)

Mei is mid-kage, she survived against Madara's Susano Bunshins for an extended period and her advanced techniques definitely warrant mid-kage status. 

Her Suitons are massive and fast, she can spit lava, has hidden mist and an invisible boiling mist. How in the world could you argue her as on the level of ninja like Hidan, Old Hiruzen, Darui & Hiashi? Her Jutsu arsenal and versatility dwarfs any of their capabilities. 

Base Naruto can create 2,000 bunshins, each with the speed to sneak up on Kakashi's Bunshin, and he knows an advanced form of Rasengan along with having the capacity to summon Boss Frogs. (Still arguably Base) Naruto has the capacity to enter KN0 to increase his speed and strength even further, that being a technique he learned in Part I from Jiraiya (controlling and tapping into Kyuubi's leaked chakra) and one he used against Neji and Itachi [1] without requiring emotional distress, look at the crater that Rasengan creates when it makes contact with Itachi's body- his power is clearly inflated by KN0 chakras a great deal.

2,000 KN0 Naruto's and Gamabunta is a serious threat for any low-kage opponent.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Mei is mid-kage, she survived against Madara's Susano Bunshins for an extended period and her advanced techniques definitely warrant mid-kage status.
> 
> Her Suitons are massive and fast, she can spit lava, has hidden mist and an invisible boiling mist. How in the world could you argue her as on the level of ninja like Hidan, Old Hiruzen, Darui & Hiashi? Her Jutsu arsenal and versatility dwarfs any of their capabilities.
> 
> Base Naruto can create 2,000 bunshins, each with the speed to sneak up on Kakashi's Bunshin, and he knows an advanced form of Rasengan along with having the capacity to summon Boss Frogs. (Still arguably Base) Naruto has the capacity to enter KN0 to increase his speed and strength even further, that being a technique he learned in Part I from Jiraiya (controlling and tapping into Kyuubi's leaked chakra) and one he used against Neji and Itachi [1] without requiring emotional distress.



how can Mei be mid kage when she is the weakest kage of her generation? 
actually it doesnt. she cant even beat any kage that has ever held the title shown on panel. she is as weak as it gets for someone of her level. 

i know all she can do. however low kage level generally accepted is Mei level seeing that she is the weakest of the lot. Hiashi Air palm would cause her more problems than her lack of AoE lava would do to him. I find it odd you can say dwarf do show any of her jutsu with the AoE hiashi air palm  go on ill wait 

imma just say it straight hiashi can beat mei. or at the very worst put up a good fight. There is no mid kage level that doesnt beat hiashi in under 5 mins

yes he can and she can Acid mist the entire Area defeating all of them with ease. 

all u explained of naruto still doesnt allow him to beat Mei the weakest kage. she beats him without trying. 

As for darui vs Mei its good match but he will loose with some level of difficult. though the fact that she cant simply beat darui shows she is still on the same general level 

here is a mid kage level gaara!! he low diffs darui. please dont claim gaara is high kage level cuz that would put him in the same league as minato who is as high kage level as it gets.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 8, 2015)

> how can Mei be mid kage when she is the weakest kage of her generation?
> actually it doesnt. she cant even beat any kage that has ever held the title shown on panel. she is as weak as it gets for someone of her level.


According to you? Mei is around the age of Kakashi, who became Kage without his Sharingan. Are you suggesting Mei is weaker than Sharingan-less Kakashi?

Mei would baby shake Old Hiruzen, Darui, Kurotsuchi and Chojuro based on feats. 



> i know all she can do. however low kage level generally accepted is Mei level seeing that she is the weakest of the lot. Hiashi Air palm would cause her more problems than her lack of AoE lava would do to him. I find it odd you can say dwarf do show any of her jutsu with the AoE hiashi air palm  go on ill wait


She is not the weakest of the lot, and most kage are considered mid-kage level. She beats everyone listed above with utmost ease and she gives ninja considered mid-kage (her level) a great of problems. 

Mei put out a large Katon shot from Madara with her water sprout technique, which was gargantuan. Hiashi could conceivably kill mid-kage level ninja with a surprise Vacuum Palm, that is not a fault of Mei. 

What can Hiashi possibly do against a Flood Dragon coming out of Hidden Mist Cover?



> imma just say it straight hiashi can beat mei. or at the very worst put up a good fight. There is no mid kage level that doesnt beat hiashi in under 5 mins


With knowledge on vacuum palm she steamrolls the fuck out of Hiashi. 



> yes he can and she can Acid mist the entire Area defeating all of them with ease.


Indeed. 



> all u explained of naruto still doesnt allow him to beat Mei the weakest kage. she beats him without trying.


Mei is mid-kage. Base Naruto at that time could conceivably beat Hidan, Darui, Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Old Hiruzen, Sasori and Kimimaro, these are ninja considered low-kage level.  



> As for darui vs Mei its good match but he will loose with some level of difficult. though the fact that she cant simply beat darui shows she is still on the same general level


No it's not a good match. She kills him in rapid fashion assuming the battle does not start in close. 



> here is a mid kage level gaara!! he low diffs darui. please dont claim gaara is high kage level cuz that would put him in the same league as minato who is as high kage level as it gets.


He's mid-kage, and yes he does beat Darui.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Darui, Kakashi, Choujurou and Kurotsuchi became Kage after the end of the war. They trained and became more powerful before being named Kages.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> According to you? Mei is around the age of Kakashi, who became Kage without his Sharingan. Are you suggesting Mei is weaker than Sharingan-less Kakashi?



i dont see why she would be strogner. considering when kakashi was kage she was old and withered. u want to put those 2 up against each other. *again WEAKEST OF HER GENERATION!!!* of when she was kage. why u bring choujiro up i have no idea 



> Mei would baby shake Old Hiruzen, Darui, Kurotsuchi and Chojuro based on feats.



again why u bring up choujiro i dont know. same for hiruzen. darui isnt getting baby shaked. again why kurotsuchi is there i have no idea



> She is not the weakest of the lot, and most kage are considered mid-kage level. She beats everyone listed above with utmost ease and she gives ninja considered mid-kage (her level) a great of problems.



when 90% of them are in her GENERATION!! u go compare old withered mei to them. 
again mei is weaker than tsunade, gaara, Ei and onoki!! the kage in her generation 



> Mei put out a large Katon shot from Madara with her water sprout technique, which was gargantuan. Hiashi could conceivably kill mid-kage level ninja with a surprise Vacuum Palm, that is not a fault of Mei.



hiashi cant beat any kage in Mei GENERATION! 



> What can Hiashi possibly do against a Flood Dragon coming out of Hidden Mist Cover?



 Air palm it. unless u think its stronger than juubi tail. 



> With knowledge on vacuum palm she steamrolls the fuck out of Hiashi.



with knowledge on her jutsu he steamrolls her. see how that works . u put them up against each other no knowledge. lets see how that goes. considering hiashi has the quicker jutsu



> Indeed.



ok 



> Mei is mid-kage. Base Naruto at that time could conceivably beat Hidan, Darui, Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Old Hiruzen, Sasori and Kimimaro, these are ninja considered low-kage level.



sasori   really sasori!! ah common! choujiro and kurotsuchi i dont know why u spamming their name they were only kage in chapter 700 with no idea of what they can do

base naruto at that time isnt beating kimimaro who could sabawari no mai him and all his clones for the lolz.



> No it's not a good match. She kills him in rapid fashion assuming the battle does not start in close


. 

the scale of her jutsu dont outdo his. good luck using her suiton against his black lightning. also his jutsu are faster than hers. laser circus was mentioned to be fast and can be directed something none of her jutsu have. she would win but very far from easy. that alone indicates her low level



> He's mid-kage, and yes he does beat Darui.



i know. with ease. something mei cant do


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## Deer Lord (Apr 8, 2015)

Out of the kage displayed in the manga only old hiruzan is below mei.
She is literally the bottom of the kage-tier.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 8, 2015)

> i dont see why she would be strogner. considering when kakashi was kage she was old and withered. u want to put those 2 up against each other. *again WEAKEST OF HER GENERATION!!!* of when she was kage. why u bring choujiro up i have no idea


What he hell are you talking about man? Mei is basically the same age as Kakashi both being in their early 30s in Part 2.



> again why u bring up choujiro i dont know. same for hiruzen. darui isnt getting baby shaked. again why kurotsuchi is there i have no idea


Because they're Kages? Have you even read the manga?

You suggested Mei was the weakest Kage- I just gave you more than one that is weaker than her. 



> when 90% of them are in her GENERATION!! u go compare old withered mei to them.
> again mei is weaker than tsunade, gaara, Ei and onoki!! the kage in her generation


Dude, Kakashi and Mei are of the same generation, they are basically the same age.

Darui was 26-28 in Part II, literally 4 years younger than Mei. 



> hiashi cant beat any kage in Mei GENERATION!


By generation are you referring to the Kage she was aligned with at the Kage Summit?

Generation means people born within the same 10-20 year period. 



> Air palm it. unless u think its stronger than juubi tail.


How could he possibly know which direction to Air Palm without seeing it?



> with knowledge on her jutsu he steamrolls her. see how that works . u put them up against each other no knowledge. lets see how that goes. considering hiashi has the quicker jutsu


No chance whatsoever. Hidden Mist leaves him completely blind and her Suitons are capable of blocking his Vacuum Palm from afar- indefinitely.



> sasori   really sasori!! ah common! choujiro and kurotsuchi i dont know why u spamming their name they were only kage in chapter 700 with no idea of what they can do


Are you suggesting they vastly improved over the span of 10 years? 

A lack of feats makes you weaker in the dome. If you do not have the feats, you cannot beat someone who has the feats. Thus, Mei is stronger. 



> base naruto at that time isnt beating kimimaro who could sabawari no mai him and all his clones for the lolz.


Yes he is. As for Hidan, Old Hiruzen and Darui, he beats them as well, making him low-kage level. 

Gamabunta jumps above the bones or Naruto kills him before he enters CS2 and attempts the technique. 



> . the scale of her jutsu dont outdo his. good luck using her suiton against his black lightning. also his jutsu are faster than hers. laser circus was mentioned to be fast and can be directed something none of her jutsu have. she would win but very far from easy. that alone indicates her low level


Are you suggesting his Black Lightning will save him from Flood Dragon and Water Sprout? All it does is kill him faster with the electric properties of the technique inflating her Suiton's power output. 

She doesn't even need it, Hidden Mist & Boil Release kill Darui. 



> i know. with ease. something mei cant do


Mei can do it quite easily.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

@Davizwiz
i refer u to deer lord post. read it slowly. they are the same age however were not kage in the same era

 byakugan can see all attakcs within a 50m radius by just releasing chakra. this is part 1 knowledge. 

he sees her attack he air palms it. the fact that it can be argued shows u how weak she is

she uses suiton and darui uses lightnign yet u believe its darui who will be affected by his own lightning jutsu and not the user of the water jutsu?  
seriously u jokign right. darui has already shown he can casually mix raiton and suiton. i wonder where Mei raiton affinity is at. oh yh no where. 

she fries if she attempts suiton


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## Thunder (Apr 8, 2015)

Hidden Mist is a great counter to Laser Circus. Can't target what you can't see. In that situation Darui is running around with impaired vision while Mei is free to throw around her acid everywhere. Eventually Darui gets tagged. 

EoS Darui has probably grown to the point where he can handle Mei (just speculation on my part), but War Arc Darui would lose to War Arc Mei imo.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 8, 2015)

> byakugan can see all attakcs within a 50m radius by just releasing chakra. this is part 1 knowledge.


Where did you get this from?

Neji only streamed chakra into his own blind spot fully knowing Kidomaru would aim for it, and that was barely a couple meters [1]. Are you suggesting Hiashi can create a 50m radius chakra sensory barrier around himself? I'd love to see him doing it, please provide the scan. 

On top of that, Hiashi's inability to air palm a Mokuton projectile to save Hinata/Neji breeds doubt that he'd be capable of reacting to a Flood Dragon once it's in-close. Hinata moved in front of it as well as Neji and Hiashi could not manifest an air palm fast enough to save either of them while they were doing such. Mei can literally curve the dragon or water sprout release around him, ensuring he cannot air palm the entire Suiton. 



> he sees her attack he air palms it. the fact that it can be argued shows u how weak she is


Attaining the position as the strongest of your village automatically means you're not weak.

You seem to have some ridiculous bias toward Mei as if she's not highly capable of dominating masses of shinobi on a battlefield in a rapid fashion, something Hiashi would fail miserably at. Just because she _may lose_ to Hiashi because of a surprise vacuum palm doesn't mean her techniques are not worthy of claiming a battlefield on command, something that is inherently possessed by Mid-kage level shinobi. 

Hidan cannot dominate a battlefield, Old Hiruzen cannot dominate a battlefield, Darui cannot dominate a battlefield, Hiashi cannot dominate a battlefield, Konan cannot dominate a battlefield. These are consistencies of a low-kage level shinobi. 

Mei's worth on an open battlefield is infinitely more valuable than Hiashi's, as displayed when he failed to protect Neji, something Mei would have easily been capable of with her defensive Suitons and Hidden Mist cover, which would have largely protected that entire force, thus dominating the battlefield. 



> she uses suiton and darui uses lightnign yet u believe its darui who will be affected by his own lightning jutsu and not the user of the water jutsu?
> seriously u jokign right. darui has already shown he can casually mix raiton and suiton. i wonder where Mei raiton affinity is at. oh yh no where.


Are you suggesting the lightning stops her Suiton from hitting Darui? Are you further suggesting she'll be jumping into her own electrified water construct? 

The moment he releases Black Lightning Mei stops spitting out water from her mouth and he's then hit with a lightning-infused water wave, instantly killing him. 



> she fries if she attempts suiton


Right, the same way she was fried when Ei added lightning to her Flood Dragon (nope) or the same way Darui fried when he added lightning to his own water stream (nope).

His pesky little Raiton isn't stopping the guided juggernaut that is her Flood Dragon and Mei is not being electrified by it through her own Suiton that she can
1. Cut off of before the lightning makes contact with her Suiton
2. Has shown the ability to continue manifesting unscathed while Ei's Lightning infused her Flood Dragon

The fact that Mei is a lightning release user is just icing on the cake, further crumbling your theory as she has an innate defense against that nature as a master of it.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2015)

Kai said:


> He's on the "Sannin level". Kishi had KN4 fight two members of the Sannin, shedding light on the Kyuubi's power at four tails, although both of those Sannin would likely win if they put their life on the line.



Jiraiya stayed in base and was trying to detain, not kill. Orochimaru was weakened and also seemed rather playful. I don't consider KN4 in the Sannin tier, personally.​


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > Where did you get this from?
> ...


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 8, 2015)

> i expect more from you. you dissapoint me.
> [1]
> 
> 50 m radius by a genin. just so you know


I do not see 50m stated. 

I concede that he did indeed release a detection barrier and that Hiashi can use this in the Hidden Mist, even though the mist would also constantly interact with his chakra. 



> he air palmed juubi tail. please try and tell me mei jutsu have a larger AoE than that. go on please.
> if she curves it round with no feats of being able to do so. he lol kaitens it. very casually while putting his hand down his crotch


The Juubi tail doesn't curve and he had it in his plain sight. 

Water sprout covers a large, wide AoE  and the Flood Dragon is clearly being curved/guided in this panel. 



> i dont she is the weakest of the gokage. hence low kage level. sadly hiashi is the only one on panel who trolled 20+ shinobi in 1 move. try harder


A single Water Sprout would kill an entire army of shinobi in a single release, she could flood an entire village and destroy building after building 

Hiashi is a joke compared to what Mei is capable in a battlefield or invasion scenario. 



> she cannot be mid when the likes of gaara are in that tier. gaara low diffs her. while sipping tea


Gaara does not low diff her dude, there is absolutely no chance of that happening on an neutral terrain. 



> hidan is as low as kage level as he gets. basically the only akatsuki member Mei can beat.
> no darui cannot but then again u talking people who barely make low kage level and should be elite jounin.


Mei can beat Sasori, Konan, Hidan and Deidara in certain scenarios. 

In closed-battlefield scenarios (caves, buildings, underground), she could flood the vicinity and drown them forcibly, and/or boil her opponents with relative ease. 



> konan can dominate a battlefield with alot more ease than Mei can. but please do show us this feat of Mei dominiating a battlefield. go on ill wait


Oh really?

Is she dropping paper trees on them? 

You're hilarious man. 

Okay. . 



> Mei displayed nothing on the battlefield though
> yes because mei defensive suitons helped her against madara clones. oh no wait she was a punching bag. where was Mei suiton when baby budda punched her? where was she when 5 elements were comign their way?


What the fuck are you talking about man? Her Suitons are massive and are quick-released, one of which is guided. She has Hidden Mist & Boil Release, she wouldn't be found and if she were the average shinobi would be boil to death when they came anywhere close to her. 

What the fuck? The entire alliance was stalemated by that statue and you're singling out Mei who had no chakra? Dude, what are you trying to accomplish?



> it would hit darui however not kill him. his lightning however will paralyze her. no but she is spitting it out. which means darui need not try to avoid it but only use her water to attack her.


It would break every bone in his body and she'd release the dragon from her mouth once it is traveling fast enough toward Darui. 



> yes because Mei will expect darui to attack her jutsu with lightning instead of avoiding it. sure thing.


Yes, because Darui will somehow react to her guided Flood Dragon with Black Lightning instead of being overcome by it's unpredictable curves and nigh instantaneous creation speed. 

Excellent point. 

Darui's featless black lightning > Mei's Flood Dragon that grappled Madara's Susano before it could hit he ground after Tsunade's strike after she previously put out a Katon spit by Madara that was nearly 10m away from hitting Tsunade with Water Sprout.

Do you actually think he can hit her Flood Dragon with that technique before he's hit with her technique?



> guided juggernaut with no feats of harming anyone. darui has his own suiton as well. he can block that shit. and if not it hits him and he gets up.
> zabuza took a suiton head on and wasnt killed or damaged or nothing


You are literally impossible man. His toddler-level Suiton is blocking her guided Flood Dragon that extended several hundred meters into the air? 

Are you suggesting the Flood Dragon will do NO damage to Darui? That he will simply walk it off?



> yes and neji is a water user. i guess he should have used Mei water wall to protect himself from wood spikes.


Hiashi failed to save Hinata and Neji with a vacuum palm when they both had the capacity to move in front of Naruto.

That's not exactly fast activation time if you ask me. 



> the fact that you are tryign so hard to say Mei beats darui just proves my point. notice no one would entertain an argument of darui vs any other kage in the gokage


Dude, how can you possibly suggest Darui beats Mei?

A single Suiton release kills him, period. He stands no chance against her. 



> onoki neg diffs, Ei neg diffs, gaara low diffs, tsunade low diffs.
> 
> btw neg diff= 1 move GG. while low diff might be 2 at the most


Why are you comparing her to the Kage during the war?

Hidden Mist makes her nigh invisible to Onoki, Ei and Tsunade. They literally cannot find her at any point. She loses to Onoki, but she can definitely beat Ei, Tsunade and Gaara if given the right stipulations (inside battle and/or displaced distance 50m+ start). 

Mei dominates a battlefield far better than Ei. Mei has more versatility than Gaara (Entire technique is Doton based). Mei is effective from all ranges, unlike Tsunade (bar Katsuya spit).

Assuming we're treating Naruto: The Last as canon, her Suiton affinity grew to the point of apparently deflecting meteorites from the moon.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I do not see 50m stated.



please read the entire fight. seriously its part 1 knowledge. 
but fine here. since i got time to indulge ur lack of knowledge all the while arguing blindly 
i expect more from you 
[1]
read the scans slowly to absorb all the info please



> I concede that he did indeed release a detection barrier and that Hiashi can use this in the Hidden Mist, even though the mist would also constantly interact with his chakra.



no shit of course u concede. you are wrong. ...if its contanstly interracting doesnt that give him a base line for when somethign different interracts. its like i gotta think for you here. why
seriously i expect alot better. common!! we friends as far as the forum is concerned. 




> The Juubi tail doesn't curve and he had it in his plain sight.



true. he doesnt need to have it in plain sight though . detection barrier. 



> Water sprout covers a large, wide AoE  and the Flood Dragon is clearly being curved/guided in this panel.



smaller AoE than juubi tail.  why u went through the effort to do that just to be wrong. u already got the perfect scale for how small Mei jutsu is. madara was at most twice as small as the head of water dragon. now go compare that to the scan with juubi tail, then keep reading and note what looked like pube hairs to juubi tail finger was giant wood spikes to the average sized human. Then think real hard and notice hiashi using air palm sent the tail flying. 

the AoE and speed of his jutsu vastly outclass what Mei showed. 



> A single Water Sprout would kill an entire army of shinobi in a single release, she could flood an entire village and destroy building after building



feats of it doing anything u just mentioned or at least Db statements. you have neither 



> Hiashi is a joke compared to what Mei is capable in a battlefield or invasion scenario.



sure to fan fic Mei you just made up. no doubt. he is. you know the Mei whose water dragon can kill an army despite this never being implied or shown 



> Gaara does not low diff her dude, there is absolutely no chance of that happening on an neutral terrain


. 

gaara landscapes. even as a genin he could do so in a few panels



> Mei can beat Sasori, Konan, Hidan and Deidara in certain scenarios.



Mei can beat hidan. good for her. who cant? konan and deidara do mention those scenarios please. a well curious. 



> In closed-battlefield scenarios (caves, buildings, underground), she could flood the vicinity and drown them forcibly, and/or boil her opponents with relative ease.



oh so u have to give her the advantage for her to win. ok start deidara 100m in the air with C3 in hand lets see how long Mei survives. 



> Oh really?



yes 



> Is she dropping paper trees on them?



no she can suffocate them casually. how are fodders with kunai going to harm her?



> You're hilarious man.



and your sad i expect better from u 



> Okay. .



feats of it dominating a battlefiled please. Also all showed less AoE than again hiashi air palm. compare the humans to the size of each jutsu in the panels provided vs cutting and pasting shit from part 1 into part 2. seriously what a waste of time



> What the fuck are you talking about man? Her Suitons are massive and are quick-released, one of which is guided. She has Hidden Mist & Boil Release, she wouldn't be found and if she were the average shinobi would be boil to death when they came anywhere close to her.



yes and ur fodder shinobi who u are reffering to not ur average shinobi would not see hiashi air palm and will die. considering kisame couldnt avoid neji's despite kisame being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>neji



> What the fuck? The entire alliance was stalemated by that statue and you're singling out Mei who had no chakra? Dude, what are you trying to accomplish?



its Mei we are talking about though 



> It would break every bone in his body and she'd release the dragon from her mouth once it is traveling fast enough toward Darui.



feats of it breaking even a person ankle. or at least DB statements what are u basis ur hype on?



> Yes, because Darui will somehow react to her guided Flood Dragon with Black Lightning instead of being overcome by it's unpredictable curves and nigh instantaneous creation speed.



last i checked said jutsu has never been guided nor has it been implied to be. you know whats guided and fast. laser circus. lol instatenous creation speed. jesus u can wank. character statements or DB statements of these speeds?



> Excellent point.



i know i make alot of those



> Darui's featless black lightning > Mei's Flood Dragon that grappled Madara's Susano before it could hit he ground after Tsunade's strike after she previously put out a Katon spit by Madara that was nearly 10m away from hitting Tsunade with Water Sprout.



 mei suiton is even more featless. what has she done with it? 
so madara took a shower in her suiton. while not even carryign to mention the technique as noteworthy sure. at least black lightning got hype from kinkaku and ginkaku 



> Do you actually think he can hit her Flood Dragon with that technique before he's hit with her technique?



nope but he can hit her with laser circus before she can do much of anything. and guess what unlike ur fan fic guided water jutsu. laser circus is guided 



> You are literally impossible man. His toddler-level Suiton is blocking her guided Flood Dragon that extended several hundred meters into the air?



several 100 meters. do show scans of this. ur BS is exhausting me



> Are you suggesting the Flood Dragon will do NO damage to Darui? That he will simply walk it off?



feats of any water jutsu damaging anyone. werent u the prick who said less feats from a ninja means weaker than the ninja with more feats. now u wanan change story? *feats feats feats feats!!!* of water jutsu breaking any bones



> Hiashi failed to save Hinata and Neji with a vacuum palm when they both had the capacity to move in front of Naruto.



and Mei failed at actually being shown on panel doign aything to the susanoo clones every other kage at least showed they could defend themselves. she was shown as a punchign bag who needed saving



> That's not exactly fast activation time if you ask me.



of acid mist, yoton, Mei suiton and hiashi air palm ony 1 of these jutsu is described as super fast by the author. wanna guess which one? Air palm. suck on that



> Dude, how can you possibly suggest Darui beats Mei?



Mei shown on panel. sure ur fanfic coudl kill madara though 



> A single Suiton release kills him, period. He stands no chance against her.



with no feats or implications of doing so 



> Why are you comparing her to the Kage during the war?



because they are kage who showed the most on panel and fought along side her



> Hidden Mist makes her nigh invisible to Onoki, Ei and Tsunade. They literally cannot find her at any point. She loses to Onoki, but she can definitely beat Ei, Tsunade and Gaara if given the right stipulations (inside battle and/or displaced distance 50m+ start).



jinton GG. he doesnt need to find her when he can level flower tree world. Ei murders her before she pulls any jutsu. tsunade ..ever heard of queen of solo? gaara burries her. do put her up against the kage. though lets see how many agree with me and how few agree with u 

again if u need to set up conditions just for mei to stand a chance then clearly she is weaker



> Mei dominates a battlefield far better than Ei. Mei has more versatility than Gaara (Entire technique is Doton based). Mei is effective from all ranges, unlike Tsunade (bar Katsuya spit).



minato fighting style says otherwise. when he used speed to murder armies while they couldnt even see him. Ei can replicate said feat against fodders. any kage can do better than Mei in all situations

sandaime raikage a slower ninja than his son was trolling an entire section of the alliance himself. now while he is stronger fodder techniques will have no effect on either Ei or his dad. Ei replicates his dad feat while sipping tea. he runs at 100+ ninja and they all die before they can blink when we have sandaime without trying off panelling 20+ ninja to the point KCM naruto must point it out. 

if Ei runs at Mei he kills her long before her acid melts him. again do match them up with polls. i want to see how NF agrees with me and disagrees firmly with you



> Assuming we're treating Naruto: The Last as canon, her Suiton affinity grew to the point of apparently deflecting meteorites from the moon.





yes and rock lee could punch a meteor and explode it. i guess it means any gated sure could flick a ninja and kill him then.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Apr 14, 2015)

rofl at everyone saying low kage level...my ass. 

KN4 Naruto had enough power to obliterate orochimaru if he didn't retreat and he is one of the toughest ninja in the entire manga. Jiraiya also barely survived against kn4 naruto he had a giant scar on his chest...

Jiraiya and Oro are both high kage level ninja. Virtually any kage level ninja would die if they got hit from kn4 naruto. Most would die.

Only extremely fast ninja like minato or power houses like 3rd raikage stand a chance.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

@trans 
Ei baby shakes, tsunade wins, kisame trolls, kakuzu wins, minato neg diffs, jiriaya wins, orochimaru (not weakened bullies), onoki neg diffs, Muu neg diffs, pain horribly stomps, all version of sasuke above hebi troll horribly, itachi neg diffs. Seriously too many characters to mention. Kn4 is mindless and the only thing to remotely worry about is BD. unlikely it pulls it off in a situation where these guys are trying to put it down. 

i seriously cant find anyone who is considered mid kage level or above who wont beat kn4, with disgusting ease.


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i seriously cant find anyone who is considered mid kage level or above who wont beat kn4, with disgusting ease.



Hmmm.

Gaara.

Mei.

Rasa.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

well again its believing Mei is mid kage level which is the flaw in ur argument 
gaara will beat KN4. i dont see why u mention him 
rasa is also not mid kage level. he didnt show enough to put him there. 

Though rasa used to casually stop a full fledged bijuu so stopping Kn4 is very possible. 

anything else?


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well again its believing Mei is mid kage level which is the flaw in ur argument



All of the Gokage are mid-Kage in my book. Mei & Gaara are towards the bottom, while the other three are towards the top. 



> gaara will beat KN4. i dont see why u mention him



In a desert yes. With just gourd sand, Naruto literally runs right through it and sinks a corrosive claw into Gaara's face.



> Though rasa used to casually stop a full fledged bijuu so stopping Kn4 is very possible.



I'm not necessarily convinced that Shukaku is stronger than Yonbi Naruto. It's certainly not faster.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> All of the Gokage are mid-Kage in my book. Mei & Gaara are towards the bottom, while the other three are towards the top.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



its odd they are. onoki and mei arent at all in the same tier though. like not even a little bit. maybe thats the problem with ur rating. same way Ei isnt in her tier. even tsunade is far far more threatening 
as is gaara. they are all consipiciously stronger than her. kishi already made that point quite clear

all of the kage are shown being able to defend against susanoo clones. only Mei is shown getting her face punched in 
Mei is also the first one to give up on several occassions. so even kishi knows she is the weakest link while onoki is the strongest 

just consider their jutsu. Desert funeral+gaara sand armor, Raiton cloak+Ei physical strength, jinton+weighted jutsu and byakuyo+katsuyu are far better jutsu than what Mei has. also the fact that onoki, Ei and tsunade, gaara will absolutely beat Mei in every scenario without much difficulty 

onoki jinton GG. she cant defend nor evade it
Ei V2 GG. he amps and punches her she isnt reacting to something MS sasuke could barely follow
Tsunade gets in close and rapes or at worst katsuyu trolls
gaara says tsunami and Mei finds herself under it

yes clawing gaara face will do much. when gaara himself is covered in sand armor. also genin gaara could create a tsunami in a panel. gaara will have no issues in any terrain bar a lake to create a tsunami to bury KN4

its not faster however it should be stronger and harder to put down. for one its alot more durable 

no but seriously. i want to see what people think match Mei against the other kage. i cant see Mei not dying miserably against everyone of them


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

How can all the Kages be mid kage level?

Mei is the weakest of the seen Kages, and so she is the standard for what a low Kage level is. There can't be a character that is low kage level being weaker than the weakest known kages, that's common sense.


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## Deer Lord (Apr 14, 2015)

Rasa defeated shukaku because gold dust is anti sand hax as he stated himself.
And besides, shukaku is the weakest bijuu by feats.

KN4 would beat all low kage but would get beaten by all the mid-kage.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

exactly deer lord i agree with ur post
KN4 is probably the strongest low kage level. good catch however will loose to all mid kage level or most


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> How can all the Kages be mid kage level?



All Kage are not Mid-Kage.



> Mei is the weakest of the seen Kages, and so she is the standard for what a low Kage level is. There can't be a character that is low kage level being weaker than the weakest known kages, that's common sense.



"Low-Kage" or slightly below the Kage standard - Old Hiruzen, Mifune, Old Chiyo, etc.

"Mid-Kage" or at the Kage standard - Gaara, Mei, A, Onoki, Tsunade, Mu, Sandaime Raikage, etc.

"High-Kage" or above the Kage standard - Minato, B, Pain, Kabuto (No ET), Healthy/Edo Itachi, etc.

That's my view, at least.


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## DavyChan (Apr 14, 2015)

Probably low kage tier. Sakura could beat Kn4 about higher end of mid diff. and she is high-high kage tier. prob on the lower part of top tier actually.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> All Kage are not Mid-Kage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i dont get how u can honestly put Mei in the same tier as onoki, muu and sandaime raikage without utterly laughing. sorry its funny. dont u think . she is no way near as threatening as them and she cant survive more than 10 seconds against either of them. Same goes for tsunade, gaara and A. they all miserably bully her 

yes but onoki was stated by madara to be the best of the gokage so he should be in high kage tier or if mid then the likes of mei cant be in mid
for the most part i agree with ur high tier and low tier. mei should just not be in mid tier

lets even compare her to the other kages once more

gaara- sand armor as a genin tanked 5th gate lee, kimimaro charge, as a kage c1 bomb to the face. 
gaara has tsunami and his gourd sand has shown some speed. add that to the fact that acid mist must first melt his sand armor. 

tsunade- katsuyu+byakuyo. tsunade gets in cqc Mei dies with a finger flick 

A- V2 GG

onoki-jinton GG

the ease at which the others can beat her simply puts her beneath them


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## Trojan (Apr 14, 2015)

4-tails Narudo is sannin/itachi's level. 

He would probably defeat them as well, except for SM Jiraiya probably.
Oro, Tsunade, and itachi are mid Kage level, and SM Jiraiya is high Kage level. So I guess
4tails Narudo is in between more to the high...


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i dont get how u can honestly put Mei in the same tier as onoki, muu and sandaime raikage without utterly laughing. sorry its funny. dont u think . she is no way near as threatening as them and she cant survive more than 10 seconds against either of them. Same goes for tsunade, gaara and A. they all miserably bully her
> 
> yes but onoki was stated by madara to be the best of the gokage so he should be in high kage tier or if mid then the likes of mei cant be in mid
> for the most part i agree with ur high tier and low tier. mei should just not be in mid tier
> ...


Gourd Sand = useless against Suitons & Hidden Mist
V2 Ei = useless against Hidden Mist
Tsunade CQC= useless against Hidden Mist & Boil Release
Onoki Jinton= Unable to accurately target her in Hidden Mist

With one technique she could literally stalemate multiple tactics from all four of them. Put any four of them on a water mass (lake, river, ocean) and it gets difficult for them very quickly.


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## LostSelf (Apr 14, 2015)

I go with Rocky. Itachi, Minato, Pain, Kabuto are all high kage tier and definitely stronger than the Gokage individually.

Tsunade, Mei and Gaara are solid mid-kage. While Onoki and Ei are a bit beyond.

Low Kage is Chiyo, for example.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 14, 2015)

Hiashi gets destroyed by KN4. 
KN4 loses to both MS Sasuke and Sandaime Raikage.


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## Trojan (Apr 14, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Hiashi gets destroyed by KN4.
> KN4 loses to both MS Sasuke and Sandaime Raikage.



How is Sasuke going to defeat him again? 



> I go with Rocky. Itachi, Minato, Pain, Kabuto are all high kage tier and definitely stronger than the Gokage individually.



Onoki's feat against 5 of madara's clones is far better than anything itachi did. He defeated 5 of the Susanoos by himself, and that is the
strongest jutsu itachi has.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How is Sasuke going to defeat him again?



Kirin or Susano'o Arrows
Raiden is capable of cutting through Jins' chakra arms, so there's no doubt that Kirin absolutely eviscerates KN4. 
I'd also imagine that Susano'o Arrows skewer him with no difficulty.

Amaterasu would kill KN4 eventually, too... Until Kyuubi is revived, of course


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## Trojan (Apr 14, 2015)

> =King Itachi;53370282]Kirin


Too much prepare time needed. Too bad he is not lasting that much. that's why he never used it except for once. Needless to say a TBB is stronger anyway. 


> or Susano'o Arrows


lol, those pathetic arrows (MS) aren't doing jack 


> Raiden is capable of cutting through Jins' chakra arms, so there's no doubt that Kirin absolutely eviscerates KN4.


Jutsus differ. 
FRS is stronger than the 3rd Raikage's attack, but because it's not as sharp, it does not have the same effect. 



> I'd also imagine that Susano'o Arrows skewer him with no difficulty.



in your dreams maybe. The arrows are even weaker than simple black rods. 
Even with EMS, and powered up with enton they were this weak
sealed off room



> Amaterasu would kill KN4 eventually, too... Until Kyuubi is revived, of course


Nonsense. It's 2015 people, you should be ashamed to bring that amatersu shit up.
We have already seen it's useless against Kurama's chakra. It's not doing jackshit to him.
sealed off room


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i dont get how u can honestly put Mei in the same tier as onoki, muu and sandaime raikage without utterly laughing.



I just opt for using broad tiers. Low, Mid, High, Top, and God. Ex:

Low - Asuma

Mid - A

High - Pain

Top - Hashirama

God - Naruto

Mei is easily above the Hidans and Zabuzas of the world, so yes I have her on the Mid Tier, albeit at the bottom of it. The Mid Tier is very large, so it's not a big deal.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Too much prepare time needed. Too bad he is not lasting that much. that's why he never used it except for once. Needless to say a TBB is stronger anyway.



With Amaterasu, the preparation time shouldn't be too long. And it doesn't matter if TBB is stronger or not when its counterpart has more hax behind it.
Also, Sasuke actually has a brain and will coordinate his attacks.



> lol, those pathetic arrows (MS) aren't going jack



You have any proof of that?
Especially when they're hitting a mindless creature?

You underestimate the weapons of Susano'o.



> Jutsus differ.
> FRS is stronger than the 3rd Raikage's attack, but because it's not as sharp, it does not have the same effect.



Either of those attacks would fuck up KN4. Heck, Chidori Eiso can slice and dice KN4.



> in your dreams maybe. The arrows are even weaker than simple black rods.



If you're referring to black rods from Rinnegan, those would also pierce KN4.



> Nonsense. It's 2015 people, you should be ashamed to bring that amatersu shit up.
> We have already seen it's useless against Kurama's chakra. It's not doing jackshit to him.
> sealed off room



Different cloak. That resembles the cloak of KN3. 
KN4 resembles the transformation of V2 Jins during the war, which Raiden can pierce through.

Plus, Naruto blocked that attack. KN4 is mindless and doesn't operate like a human does.


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## Trojan (Apr 15, 2015)

> =King Itachi;53370356]With Amaterasu, the preparation time shouldn't be too long. And it doesn't matter if TBB is stronger or not when its counterpart has more hax behind it.
> Also, Sasuke actually has a brain and will coordinate his attacks.


It will still be long. 
Haven't you seen the amount of amatersu in his battle with itachi in top of his 2/3 fire dragons? 

I wonder why he did not use that brain to use it ever after that fight then.  



> You have any proof of that?
> Especially when they're hitting a mindless creature?
> 
> You underestimate the weapons of Susano'o.


Of them being pathetic? I already posted that.

No, you're the one who are overrating them. 
We have seen V1 chakra with 1 tail redirecting Madara's megetema, and we are talking about 4tails V2. It does not matter if the arrows are stronger because regardless the gap in power, if it does exist, it won't be that massive.  

We have seen Oro's sword which can even effect Enma (as hard as diamond) couldn't do anything, why should we assume that those arrows are stronger than that? I hope you know that there is nothing tougher than the diamond.  



> Either of those attacks would fuck up KN4. Heck, Chidori Eiso can slice and dice KN4.


My example is clear. Just because a jutsu is stronger that does not make it have the same effect. The 3rd cut down the Hahcibi's tails, yet that did not happen when he got his TBB redirected at him. 

Kirin is not sharp, it's that simple. And it's not going to happen anyway. MS Sasuke relies too much on his MS, and more or less forgot about his previous fighting style. 


> If you're referring to black rods from Rinnegan, those would also pierce KN4.


They couldn't do that to Naruto's body in SM. lol 



> Different cloak. That resembles the cloak of KN3.
> KN4 resembles the transformation of V2 Jins during the war, which Raiden can pierce through.


Yes, it's a weaker one.  

which did not end up with any result as Han was perfectly fine, and restore his hand.  
Needless to say, you are bringing a weaker Bijuu to compare it to a stronger Bijuu which is ridiculous. 
It's like saying Onoki defeated V3 Susanoo so he can defeat Madara's PS.  



> Plus, Naruto blocked that attack. KN4 is mindless and doesn't operate like a human does.



Who said it's mindless? Who was thinking just fine against Oro.
Also, there are many things got reteconned about the Bijuus anyway. We have seen them thinking, and understanding just fine.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I go with Rocky. Itachi, Minato, Pain, Kabuto are all high kage tier and definitely stronger than the Gokage individually.
> 
> Tsunade, Mei and Gaara are solid mid-kage. While Onoki and Ei are a bit beyond.
> 
> Low Kage is Chiyo, for example.


No character should be grouped in the same tier as someone who got a nonsense ability from the War-Arc, like Kabuto's Edo-Tensei, unless they also got a nonsense War-Arc ability. Tsunade getting the nonsense Byakugo inflation and Minato getting the nonsense BM-Power, are the only ones worth discussing in the same breath as Kabuto, for that very reason. Itachi and Base Minato are tiers inferior, as they lack said nonsense power ups.

In-fact those characters shouldn't even be ranked, because they are so stupidly inflated and nonsensical to any real power scale.


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## Rocky (Apr 15, 2015)

I don't include Kabuto's Edo Tensei or Edo Minato's Biju Mode in my high-tier list. 

I leave out Kabuto's zombies because they're restricted in 95% of the threads here, and the threads here are the only reason I even made a list.

I exclude Edo Minato's BM because the High-Tier one is alive and doesn't have it.

Tsunade even with Pain-Arc reserves of chakra was portrayed below Pain, so I also doubt her ability to compete on the high-tier consistently unless we talk hypotheticals.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't include Kabuto's Edo Tensei or Edo Minato's Biju Mode in my high-tier list.
> 
> I leave out Kabuto's zombies because they're restricted in 95% of the threads here, and the threads here are the only reason I even made a list.
> 
> I exclude Edo Minato's BM because the High-Tier one is alive and doesn't have it.


I know what your doing, but I just don't see a point in it, as it doesn't reflect Kabuto's actual strength. But I'm not blaming you or Lostself i'm blaming Kishi for the fact that he disregard the "power-scale" in many instance in the War-Arc to move the plot forward in a certain direction, resulting in giving several characters OP-nonsense abilities. 

He want Tensei to fight the alliance, so he allowed Kabuto to summon an army of them, making Kabuto's Edo-Tensei over-powered.

He wanted Itachi to escape Edo-Tensei, so he gave Kotoamatsukami over-powered abilities to make that happen.

He wanted Sakura to be relevant in the final duel with Kaguya as part of team 7, so he gave Byakugo nonsense boosts.

He wanted the Hokage to come back and fight against the villains, so he allowed Orochimaru to summon the Hokage at near full power, making Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei over-powered.

Characters that benefit from this plot-induced-power-inflation of jutsu, become nonsensically OP. when using that specific technique, even though all their other skills are multiple tiers lower than the characters they can step to with said Jutsu. 

For instance if Kabuto pulls out Edo-Tensei he rapes anyone whose not Juubi-Jinchuuriki "level" and a case could be made for him even being able to defeat anyone short of Kaguya. While on the other hand if he doesn't use Edo-Tensei, there can be arguments made for him loosing to characters tiers and tiers lower than that. Same thing with Orochimaru and his Edo-Tensei.

Shisui and Danzo can one-shot anyone whose not a Juubi-Jin [who are immune to Genjutsu?], but if they don't use that Jutsu, we at least know Danzo can loose [or draw] w/ MS-Sasuke, and while Shisui's skills are less known, at absolute best he could perform similar, and that's really dependent on whether you believe Kishi intended for Shisui to have Susano'o like he does in the storm game and how highly Shisui's Genjutsu [outside of Koto] and Shunshin abilities are rated.

Tsunade and Sakura apparently get such a tremendous boost to speed and striking force w/ enough Byakugo reserves that they can land effective blows on the strongest character in the verse, which would enable them to flash-blitz and one-shot pretty much anyone besides God-Tiers, if we scale that down to the realm of mortals. But when they don't have quite that large of a reserve Tsunade can be defeated by many Mid-Kages, and many low-kages can defeat Sakura.

My point being that simply ignoring these abilities, results in an unfair ranking and accounting for them results in an unfair rankings. So I just think people shouldn't bother ranking these characters. And look i've been guilty of doing so before myself, but nows is as good of time as any to stop trying to.



> Tsunade even with Pain-Arc reserves of chakra was portrayed below Pain, so I also doubt her ability to compete on the high-tier consistently unless we talk hypotheticals.


Pre-Byakugo Retcon stuff doesn't count.


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## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Onoki's feat against 5 of madara's clones is far better than anything itachi did. He defeated 5 of the Susanoos by himself, and that is the
> strongest jutsu itachi has.



5 clones that were defeated because Madara allowed the other kages to live (see panel of Madara's Susano'o clones surrounding Mei, Tsunade and Gaara while they are helpless in the floor and didn't kill then). Onoki wouldn't have been able to defeat  the kages at his current stage. and if he did, it's because he has the means to do so. But that doesn't put him above Itachi unless we say Kisame as well is stronger than Killer Bee.

Itachi has more options to take out Onoki. Like genjutsu and Amaterasu.



Turrin said:


> No character should be grouped in the same tier as someone who got a nonsense ability from the War-Arc, like Kabuto's Edo-Tensei, unless they also got a nonsense War-Arc ability. Tsunade getting the nonsense Byakugo inflation and Minato getting the nonsense BM-Power, are the only ones worth discussing in the same breath as Kabuto, for that very reason. Itachi and Base Minato are tiers inferior, as they lack said nonsense power ups.
> 
> In-fact those characters shouldn't even be ranked, because they are so stupidly inflated and nonsensical to any real power scale.



I don't see why not. War Arc is part of the story, even if they got nonsensical power ups, to wich i agree. But when i put the list, i didn't include Kabuto's Edo Tensei, just sage mode. Nor Minato's KCM/BM or Itachi's KA. Those guys are high-tier without them and a bit below Nagato, who is the closest shinobi to the god tier (Hashi, Madara, BM Naruto, etc),  independently of how big is the difference between him and them.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I don't see why not. War Arc is part of the story, even if they got nonsensical power ups, to wich i agree. But when i put the list, i didn't include Kabuto's Edo Tensei, just sage mode. Nor Minato's KCM/BM or Itachi's KA. Those guys are high-tier without them and a bit below Nagato, who is the closest shinobi to the god tier (Hashi, Madara, BM Naruto, etc),  independently of how big is the difference between him and them.


See my response to Rocky above about most of this. Besides that they are not only a bit bellow Nagato. If that was the case, Itachi wouldn't need KCM-Naruto and B to defeat Edo-Nagato, whose not even as strong as living Nagato, lacking Pain-Rikudo and Multi-Bijuu Gedo Mazou. And someone like fully prepped SM-Naruto [whose around the "level of those two, if not stronger w/ full prep] wouldn't have still lost to Pain-Rikudo, despite the Rikudo being handicapped by fighting the entire village right before their encounter, let alone the fact that he didn't even reach Nagato [Kyuubi and Minato help aside]. Living Minato and Itachi can't measure up to the strength of the Rinnegan.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> It will still be long.
> Haven't you seen the amount of amatersu in his battle with itachi in top of his 2/3 fire dragons?



Seeing that Sasuke has more chakra than Sick Itachi, it shouldn't be any problem for him.



> I wonder why he did not use that brain to use it ever after that fight then.



Hellbent on revenge. 



> Of them being pathetic? I already posted that.



I don't recall anything of that nature in your previous response.



> No, you're the one who are overrating them.
> We have seen V1 chakra with 1 tail redirecting Madara's megetema, and we are talking about 4tails V2. It does not matter if the arrows are stronger because regardless the gap in power if it does exist won't be that massive.



How can you say that?
The arrows are being shot at high velocities, and you're the one talking about piercing strength.

Arrows are sharp and concentrated. 
Shot at such velocities? How can you even think it just bounces off KN4?

Dude... The lengths you go to, just to downplay Uchiha.
Some people just never change, it seems.



> We have seen Oro's swords which can even effect Enma (as hard as diamond) couldn't do anything, why should we assume that those arrows are stronger than that? I hope you know that there is nothing tougher than the diamond.



Diamond is also very brittle. If there's enough force behind the attack, even diamond will be damaged. We're also reading a fictional manga...



> My example is clear. Just because a jutsu is stronger that does not make it have the same effect. The 3rd cut down the Hahcibi's tails, yet that did not happen when he got his TBB redirected at him.



I don't see how that helps your case. Sasuke's lightning-based attacks, projectiles from Susano'o and Amaterasu are capable of damaging KN4. Orochimaru even inferred that Sasuke was stronger at the time. We're talking about MS Sasuke here: someone who is much stronger than Sasuke in the beginning of Part 2.

It wouldn't make any sense for KN4 to be stronger than Naruto's rival from a later part of the series.



> Kirin is not sharp, it's that simple. And it's not going to happen anyway. MS Sasuke is relying to much on his MS, and more or less forgot about his previous fighting style.



Where do you get the idea that Kirin isn't sharp, anyway?



> They couldn't do that to Naruto's body in SM. lol



They're capable of piercing a Bijuu, seeing Obito somehow got them inside.



> Yes, it's a weaker one.



Different cloaks.
KN3 is more like a cloak that separates from the body (as we can see), which would be more suitable for blocking something akin to Amaterasu; it is chakra separated from the user. KN4, however, just seems to be more concentrated without the protective range. A hard-boiled egg is the best way I can describe it. In KN3, Naruto would be the yolk protected by the egg white/shell, whereas KN4's durability begins just past the shell.

As for Amaterasu, I have no doubts that it easily burns through V2 Jins.
Even though it was indicated that Kyuubi's chakra is quite hot in this state, I doubt its temperature is higher than Amaterasu. That's not even the problem, either, as it's going to burn for seven days. Even if the flames don't cause any damage on impact, they're going to be painful as time passes.



> which did not end up with any result as Han was perfectly fine, and restore his hand.



Han was one of Obito's Edo Tensei. If his hand regenerates in that instance, of course the mode is going to regenerate.



> Needless to say, you are brining a weaker Bijuu to compare it to a stronger Bijuu which is ridiculous.
> It's like saying Onoki defeated V3 Susanoo so he can defeat Madara's PS.



Why should V2 Jins be any different in durability?
We've only seen a real difference with Bijuu (full). 



> Who said it's mindless? Who was thinking just fine against Oro.
> Also, there are many things got reteconned about the Bijuus anyway. We have seen them thinking, and understanding just fine.



I'm not even sure if Kyuubi was operating in any of those instances. It's the whole reason why he urges Naruto to remove the seal and let him free.


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## Rocky (Apr 15, 2015)

@Turrin

I know all of that. That was the reasoning behind my "it's restricted 95% of the time" line. Koto Amatsukami and Edo Tensei are almost always restricted unless the thread revolves around them. That's why I decide to not account for those techniques in a tier list.

As for the Sakura stuff, I just disagree. I don't think War Arc Sakura ever had portrayal that puts her on the God Tier, and I decided to just call that "final feat" an outlier. If she was fast & strong enough to hurt & blitz Super Kaguya, she would have shat all over Madara & Obito, and likely regular Kaguya too.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @Turrin
> 
> I know all of that. That was the reasoning behind my "it's restricted 95% of the time" line. Koto Amatsukami and Edo Tensei are almost always restricted unless the thread revolves around them. That's why I decide to not account for those techniques in a tier list.


And the reason the NBD does that is because these Jutsu don't fit neatly into the tier list or understandings of the manga. . Which is fine, because NBD has conditions, but to put it on a Tier List, that way is false.



> As for the Sakura stuff, I just disagree. I don't think War Arc Sakura ever had portrayal that puts her on the God Tier, and I decided to just call that "final feat" an outlier.


Ignoring the feat is Ignoring Manga Cannon. If Kishi allowed Sakura to do that against Kaguya, it has to be accounted for. We can't just ignore the feats and showings we don't like. Though we can avoid discussion based around that feat, by not making threads about dumb-ass war-arc power-inflated characters, an idea that I'm completely behind, as I have no interest in discussing any matches between them at length, because they are not interesting, as circumstance/match-up/IC actions, etc.. don't even matter as they just shit stomp due to nonsense.



> she would have shat all over Madara & Obito, and likely regular Kaguya too.


If she had Godruto, GodKakashi, and Godsuke to distract those guys she would have. Again this is a denial of manga-cannon, because you don't like what it showed. I agree with you in terms of disgust over how stupid that shit was and how piss poor of a job Kishi did with Sakura and Byakugo in general, but i'm not going to deny Manga-cannon simply because of it, as that would be allowing my bias decide who wins or character strength rather than wha the manga showed.


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## Rocky (Apr 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And the reason the NBD does that is because these Jutsu don't fit neatly into the tier list or understandings of the manga. . Which is fine, because NBD has conditions, but to put it on a Tier List, that way is false.



Dude, it's my personal list. 

I'm not telling you to change yours. I'm explaining why I have certain characters placed lower.



> Ignoring the feat is Ignoring Manga Cannon. If Kishi allowed Sakura to do that against Kaguya, it has to be accounted for. We can't just ignore the feats and showings we don't like.



Outliers can be ignored. 

What, you don't agree that they should be, or you don't believe in outliers at all?

Believe me, I have tried rationalizing what Sakura accomplished. The only conclusion I arrived at was "huge ass inconsistency."



> Though we can avoid discussion based around that feat, by not making threads about dumb-ass war-arc power-inflated characters, an idea that I'm completely behind, as I have no interest in discussing any matches between them at length, because they are not interesting, as circumstance/match-up/IC actions, etc.. don't even matter as they just shit stomp due to nonsense.



I agree with all of this.



> If she had Godruto, GodKakashi, and Godsuke to distract those guys she would have.



Did Sakura blitz & hurt Super Kaguya because of her speed & strength, or did she blitz & hurt Super Kaguya because she wasn't paying attention to her?



> but i'm not going to deny Manga-cannon simply because of it, as that would be allowing my bias decide who wins or character strength rather than wha the manga showed.



I don't think it's bias, as I don't really have anything against Sakura. If Sakura had performed at that level throughout all of the final fights, then I wouldn't be saying this. But no, she didn't participate against Obito and was fodder before Madara.

The fact that it was really only that one punch at the very end makes it an outlier.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 15, 2015)

People take that feat from Sakura seriously?
Not too long before that, she was shitting her pants in front of Madara.


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 15, 2015)

There is no such thing as High , Mid , Low Kage level as Kage is the position one holds as whose the strongest or one of the strongest in said village and there are certain characters in the manga that have either achieved that or who could fit that criteria , but once we got towards the end of the manga we had shinobi who exceeded beyond those limitations , its like Gai having 8th Gates a power in which exceeds even the limitations of shinobi who became Hokage , Kabuto, Nagato, Naruto, Madara, Obito all achieved those type of powers they are not in the tier with any of the Kage

To be honest KN4 would give any Kage nightmares because even that percentage of Kurama's power is enough to destroy an entire village , that power was enough to kill Jiraiya and even Orochimaru anything short of seals or Bijuu Suppression, Obito/Madara ability to control Kurama would not be feasible in defeating KN4 so all those who dont posses those abilities would probably lose


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Dude, it's my personal list.
> 
> I'm not telling you to change yours. I'm explaining why I have certain characters placed lower.


So if I put Itachi at Low-Kage or lower because I don't like Sharingan, that's cool? Or If I put Ei at Low-Kage or lower because I don't like RNY, that's cool? 

---Only an example, I do like RNY 



> Outliers can be ignored.
> 
> What, you don't agree that they should be, or you don't believe in outliers at all?
> 
> Believe me, I have tried rationalizing what Sakura accomplished. The only conclusion I arrived at was "huge ass inconsistency."


outlier, "a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set"

We don't have a set of feats from Sakura, post-Byakugo, that establishes her speed or striking force.

We never got panels before that showing her use her max-strength and speed, failing against multiple enemies, defenses, etc... inferior to that.

Literally the only speed and strength instances before that were, her owning Juubi-Fodder with one of the most impressive striking feats in the manga cannon [if not thee most impressive], avoiding Kaguya's chakra arm [for a bit], and her attack being stopped by a Rinbo-Clone through some unknown means. Than we have the Kaguya feat.

The Juubling stuff tells us nothing of her limits besides her strikes being really fucking strong, so that's out.

The only one that can be argued is Madara, but that doesn't make a group of set establishing Sakura's limits in striking force and speed, it's own example and a debatable one at that, considering Rinbo-Clone was invisible and we don't know how exactly the hit was stopped, and we don't know much about what Rinbo clones are exactly in the first place or if said Rinbo clone was blown away or what exactly the damage was to that Rinbo clone. The Rinbo clone could have been damaged more than Kaguya, and we just didn't see it. The Rinbo clones being made of shadow might not suffer damage in a conventional way. The Rinbo clone could have used one of Madara's myriad of Jutsu to cushion the blow. And so on.

You can argue Madara reacting, contradicts Kaguya not reacting, but that falls flat considering the Madara wasn't also dealing with Godruto, Godsuke, and Godkakashi

And avoiding the chakra arm, even for a bit, seems to substantiate her feat, not go against it, considering the godly speed everything was at by then.

What data-set exactly contradicts Sakura's feat against Kaguya to make it an outlier? I agree it's well above her limits pre-Byakugo, but the author tells us Byakugo enhances her greatly and tells us after Byakugo she caught up to EMS-Sasuke and BM-Naruto in both the Manga and Data-book. So rather than it being an outlier, it seems no different to me than any of the other nonsense power-ups that Naruto, Kakashi, and Sasuke got in the War to allow them to suddenly shoot up tiers and tiers to be useful against Juubi-Jins. Literally thee only difference gets less focus, but Sakura has hardly ever gotten focus because Kishi didn't want to give Sakura much panel time in the series as she wasn't a very popular character [states such in an interview], so that's really not surprising.



> Did Sakura blitz & hurt Super Kaguya because of her speed & strength, or did she blitz & hurt Super Kaguya because she wasn't paying attention to her?


She hurt Kaguya because of strength. Her blitzing Kaguya is a combination of speed and Kaguya being distracted w/ her attention being split between other enemies.



> I don't think it's bias, as I don't really have anything against Sakura. If Sakura had performed at that level throughout all of the final fights, then I wouldn't be saying this. But no, she didn't participate against Obito.


She did consistently perform at that level, it's just that instance was her  only measurable performance [and her avoiding the chakr arm for a bit], because Kishi didn't feel like spending many panels on her; and her other few combat performances were against Fodder [not measurable] and off-panel Rinbo-Clone [not measurable].



> and was fodder before Madara


She got stabbed by Madara, which she recovered from, and than forced Rinbo w/ her follow up strike. I don't see how that is fodder. Is it on Juubidara's "level" goodness no, but no one is saying she is. Fuck even Godruto and Godsasuke weren't on his level and only together could defeat him.


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## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> See my response to Rocky above about most of this. Besides that they are not only a bit bellow Nagato. If that was the case, Itachi wouldn't need KCM-Naruto and B to defeat Edo-Nagato, whose not even as strong as living Nagato, lacking Pain-Rikudo and Multi-Bijuu Gedo Mazou. And someone like fully prepped SM-Naruto [whose around the "level of those two, if not stronger w/ full prep] wouldn't have still lost to Pain-Rikudo, despite the Rikudo being handicapped by fighting the entire village right before their encounter, let alone the fact that he didn't even reach Nagato [Kyuubi and Minato help aside]. Living Minato and Itachi can't measure up to the strength of the Rinnegan.



I read it now, i just don't get it, i might be too slow when it's a foreign language to mine (if you don't mind explaining it a bit more). However, even with those war-arc powerups, i see Tsunade (to put an example) below Itachi, and any other that displayed an absurd powerup in the war. Excluding, of course, Minato, Naruto, etc).

I agree with Nagato being confortably stronger than Itachi and the others. Just wanted to avoid a debate with Itachi or Minato.


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## Rocky (Apr 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So if I put Itachi at Low-Kage or lower because I don't like Sharingan, that's cool? Or If I put Ei at Low-Kage or lower because I don't like RNY, that's cool?
> 
> ---Only an example, I do like RNY



If by that you mean that you're placing Itachi & A without Sharingan & RCM respectively on the Low Kage Tier, then yes, I have no issue with that. Why would I?



> We never got panels before that showing her use her max-strength and speed, failing against multiple enemies, defenses, etc... inferior to that.



Her strength was on display against the Jubiling dude, and he failed to splatter that thing in one hit which should have happened if she actually packs the DC to damage Kaguya.

You can say that she was holding back for whatever reason, but unless you link me a scan that even somewhat indicates that, then I'm probably not going to be swayed. 

I'll get to her speed in a bit.



> And avoiding the chakra arm, even for a bit, seems to substantiate her feat, not go against it, considering the godly speed everything was at by then.



It came from a large distance away and still needed saving. I wouldn't say that's a God-Tier level speed feat.



> Her blitzing Kaguya is a combination of speed and Kaguya being distracted w/ her attention being split between other enemies.



Stop there. Tell me, how fast does somewhen have to be to hit Kaguya when her attention is elsewhere, or more specifically on two other gods that pose a significant threat to her?

And don't just say "really fast." I want evidence and support. 



> She got stabbed by Madara, which she recovered from, and than forced Rinbo w/ her follow up strike. I don't see how that is fodder. Is it on Juubidara's "level" goodness no, but no one is saying she is. Fuck even Godruto and Godsasuke weren't on his level and only together could defeat him.



I'm assuming the Limbo Madara would have fodderized her had Naruto not intervened. 

Also, you said she could blitz & one-shot everyone sans the God Tier, which would make her God Tier herself. Maybe not Madara level, but every God Tier is pretty close to him in the grand scheme of things.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If by that you mean that you're placing Itachi & A without Sharingan & RCM respectively on the Low Kage Tier, then yes, I have no issue with that. Why would I?


Okay.



> Her strength was on display against the Jubiling dude, and he failed to splatter that thing in one hit which should have happened if she actually packs the DC to damage Kaguya.
> You can say that she was holding back for whatever reason, but unless you link me a scan that even somewhat indicates that, then I'm probably not going to be swayed.


charge and lob a Mini-Bijudama in a ridiculously short time frame
charge and lob a Mini-Bijudama in a ridiculously short time frame



> It came from a large distance away and still needed saving. I wouldn't say that's a God-Tier level speed feat.


She doesn't notice it until it's very close [top left hand panel]:
charge and lob a Mini-Bijudama in a ridiculously short time frame

But what's more relevant here, is what is God-Tier speed? Because Kaguya's speed is off the charts to an absurd extent, above even other character's I'd consider God-Tiers. So not being as fast as Kaguya or even close, doesn't make someone not ridiculously fast.



> Stop there. Tell me, how fast does somewhen have to be to hit Kaguya when her attention is elsewhere, or more specifically on two other gods that pose a significant threat to her?
> 
> And don't just say "really fast." I want evidence and support.


I don't know what you mean by two other Gods. What two other Gods? 

Tell me how fast someone needs to be to hit Ei while he's distracted with three other major threats. It's rare that we have the necessary data-points to be able to figure out precisely the minimum speed requirements of a specific feat or situation. All we can give are usually rough estimates.

Though if I had to estimate it, since Godruto and Godsuke showed the necessary speed to land blows on her when she wasn't distracted, and since Juubidara kept up with them most of the time, and I don't see a reason Juubito would be much slower than them, it's probably around Juubito speed you need to land blows when she is not distracted. While distracted by three other individuals it should be a significant amount lower than that, but even still that leaves us at someone who is quite insanely fast considering even Juubito was trolling KCM-Minato's Hiraishin attack speeds. 



> I'm assuming the Limbo Madara would have fodderized her had Naruto not intervened.


Your assumption is not a good reason to call a feat an outlier, especially when every part of that the interaction between the Rinbo-Clone and Sakura was off panel. 



> Also, you said she could blitz & one-shot everyone sans the God Tier, which would make her God Tier herself. Maybe not Madara level, but every God Tier is pretty close to him in the grand scheme of things.


God-Tier for me is a stand in term for characters that can trash anyone who wasn't effected by the power-inflation bloat that occured in the final arcs and most namely in the war-arc.

So for me "God-Tier" is: Kaguya, Obito, Hagoromo, Indra, Ashura, Naruto, Sasuke, Hashirama, Madara, Kakashi, Gai, Kabuto, Orochimaru, Hamura, Shisui, Tsunade, Danzo, & BM [BSM?]-Minato

Though I don't like saying Tier, because it's not the right word as some are much weaker than others, it's more like just Power-Scaling-PNJ-Nonsense-Bloat characters, rather than being a Tier


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## Rocky (Apr 16, 2015)

Turrin;53376917
charge and lob a Mini-Bijudama in a ridiculously short time frame
charge and lob a Mini-Bijudama in a ridiculously short time frame[/quote said:
			
		

> Not sure what you're trying to say with these scans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Alita (Apr 16, 2015)

KN4 is low kage tier imo. 

Also mei is either at the top of the low kage tier or at the bottom of the mid kage tier imo.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Not sure what you're trying to say with these scans.


You asked for better striking feats than the one she used on the initial Juubi-Fodder. There you go.

I said other God-"Tiers", not all God-"Tiers". In-fact later in the post I said, Godruto could hit here. So why are you showing me these scans?



> Nardo & Sauce.
> 
> Why did I have to tell you that though. You're smart enough to know what I meant.


I still don't know what you mean, Naruto and Sasuke, weren't hit by Sakura our outsped by Sakura.



> I don't know what Obito fending off Minato & Naruto has to do with Kaguya not reacting to a blindside well. Obito was only able to handle Hiraishin when he was focused on doing so; if you recall, he was trolled by it twice before. Once for the Hiraishin swap combination, then again by regular Sage Naruto.


Juubito was only hit by Hiraishin, when the mark was directly on him. And it doesn't have to do with being distracted, I was just establishing the massive gulf in speed these characters enjoy versus everyone else in the verse. The reason why I was establishing that is to show that even while distracted, it should still take an insanely fast attack to land on them, just because of how Godly fast they are. Unless your point is that when a character is distracted their speed no longer matters at all, but that's a fairly easily point to refute, as even when Juubito was distracted by Sasuke and Naruto, he still casually handled  KCM-Minato's and Minato's clone speed:
Something thats _easily_ on par with a V1 Ei hit

Rinnegan-Madara reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishin blitz despite being distracted w/ sealing the Bijuu and than later react to Sasuke's blitz attempt despite being distracted by Tobirama.




> So again, what level of speed is necessary to do what Sakura did to Kaguya? At least tell me what you think and why.


Well certainly greater than Tobirama's Hiraishin blitz and KCM-Naruto's base speed, because Rinnegan-Madara and Juubito reacted to those attacks from distracted positions. And Kaguya is stronger than both those characters. Which to me is more than enough to make my cases that only the characters I listed don't get blitz'd by her.



> The indication is that Sakura was not going to be in for a good time had Naruto not stepped in, or else Kishi would have just had Sakura shine (if he really intended her to compete with the big boys) and not had Naruto save her.


Not in for a good time and being Fodderized are two different things. Not in for a good time is expected as She was going up against Juubidara, who was much stronger than Juubito, who in turn actually was fodderizing legendary Kages, like Tobirama, Minato, and Hiruzen.



> Okay, so this is a very broad God Tier. Like, God Tier Tsunade?


I said it really shouldn't be a tier didn't I.



> That said, Sakura blitz-killing everyone not listed here would mean Sakura speed blitzes people like A, Base Minato, Tobirama, Itachi, etc.
> 
> That is no.


Well considering Tobirama failed to blitz Rinnegan Madara and KCM-Minato failed to blitz Juubito in distracted positions, I think it's a perfectly safe bet that someone who landed a blow on distracted Kaguya is much faster than these characters.


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