# CQC Fight 06: Minato vs Hashirama



## Kyu (Jan 26, 2015)

*Location:* Tobirama vs Izuna
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* BL
*Rules:*

Fighters start 3 meters apart from one another
No clones
No Mokuton or elemental jutsu
No Summoning Jutsu
No genjutsu
No Sage Mode
No Kyuubification (Minato isn't a jinchuriki)


Hashirama has a weapon's scroll and two Giant Shuriken strapped to his back
Minato's got 10 FTG kunai hidden in his pimp cloak pocket


----------



## Euraj (Jan 26, 2015)

Minato cuts his head off. Seems like there has been a handful of these recently. Is their a group that thinks Hashirama has extraordinary Taijutsu or something?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 26, 2015)

Euraj said:


> Minato cuts his head off. Seems like there has been a handful of these recently. Is their a group that thinks Hashirama has extraordinary Taijutsu or something?



 He's on par with Alive Madara who bitch slapped SM Naruto and effortlessly stabbed EMS Sasuke who is on par with KCM Naruto in terms of speed and reactions. Hashirama also managed to outpace Madara using 100% of the Kyuubi's power while SM Naruto had to use clones and multiple Oodama Rasengans to take on 50% of the Kyuubi's power.


----------



## Negrito (Jan 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He's on par with Alive Madara who bitch slapped SM Naruto and effortlessly stabbed EMS Sasuke who is on par with KCM Naruto in terms of speed and reactions. Hashirama also managed to outpace Madara using 100% of the Kyuubi's power while SM Naruto had to use clones and multiple Oodama Rasengans to take on 50% of the Kyuubi's power.



Let's not forget the conditions SM Naruto was in.

EMS Sasuke is on par with Naruto in terms of speed? 

What is the difference with 50% or whole Kyuubi in speed?


----------



## Bonly (Jan 27, 2015)

Minato still has FTG and I doubt Hashi is skilled enough to stop Minato from landing a touch throughout the match and when that touch is landed, it'll be a GG folks.


----------



## Negrito (Jan 27, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Minato still has FTG and I doubt Hashi is skilled enough to stop Minato from landing a touch throughout the match and when that touch is landed, it'll be a GG folks.



3 meters apart, I don't see Hashi evading a blitz and getting tagged. Or being able to react to move like the one Minato pulled against Ay when he first dodged his max speed punch with Hiraishin.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 27, 2015)

There is no way Hashi is going to last more than a micro second from 3 meters. Minato fodderstomps before
Hashi even know what happened. 



Euraj said:


> Minato cuts his head off. Seems like there has been a handful of these recently. Is their a group that thinks Hashirama has extraordinary Taijutsu or something?



Go figure. Hashi is on par with madara (who fodderstompped him)
Just like how Minato is on par with A and B in term of Taijutsu, chakra, body strength, and usage of Kunais...

and just like how Naruto is as good as Sasuke in term of Genjutsu.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

Negrito said:


> 3 meters apart, I don't see Hashi evading a blitz and getting tagged. Or being able to react to move like the one Minato pulled against Ay when he first dodged his max speed punch with Hiraishin.



Lets not forget that young Ei =/= prime Shippuden/War Arc Ei in terms of speed. Young Ei is featless. Alive Minato, thats right - defeated only featless characters, such as young Obito, who reacted to him and almost killed him, fodders during the war and young Ei.

Madara could react to prime V2 Ei while being an Edo, his clones were so fast they could tag V2 Ei and alive Madara outpased SM Naruto. Hashirama is in the same speed class. And he is a sensor + regeneration and insane stamina. He can beat Minato.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 27, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Minato still has FTG and I doubt Hashi is skilled enough to stop Minato from landing a touch throughout the match and when that touch is landed, it'll be a GG folks.



 Doesn't matter. Alive Madara reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishin twice. Alive Madara = Hashirama.

 Minato's not landing FTG.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 27, 2015)

As if Tobirama is Minato. 




Hiraishin Ni no Dan / Flying Thunder God Level 2
Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Close-range
User: Namikaze Minato

Transcending time and space to reflect light is a single gallant Flash!

A technique that applies the “Hiraishin no Jutsu (Flying Thunder God Technique)”. In the moment of charging into the face of the opponent, throw a kunai and with that, CHARGE. Teleport to the location of the kunai that has flown to the opponent’s back, to vanish instantly from the opponent’s eyes and take their rear. The sudden disappearance of the enemy (yourself, the user), in addition to receiving an unexpected attack, will cause the opponent great confusion, a two-stage attack. It is an evolved variation of space-time ninjutsu!!

(Minato vs The Masked Man)
Instantly deliver (lit. rotate, spin) a flash of “Rasengan” to the rear! The opponent that has suffered an embarrassing defeat can only bow down to the ground!!


*Spoiler*: __ 








Rank: B

taijutsu (body techniques)

飛雷神斬り　

Hiraishin-giri (Flying Thunder God Slash)

使用者　千手扉間

User: Senju Tobirama

飛雷神を使った時？？？相手の？？？？

With the space-time travelling used through Hiraishin, one can attack from the enemy's blind spot

フッ

*pop*

虚をつき空より出ずる背水の刃！！

A blade to the back from thin air when the enemy is distracted!!

”飛雷神の術”を利用したバリエーション術の一つ。時空間移動で相手の死角に回り、目にも止まら ぬ速さで急 所を一突きする。木ノ葉隠れ創設前、二代目火影はこの術を用いてマダラの弟、イズナを倒した。 なかなかスキ を見せない強敵が相手であっても、大きな効果を持つ一撃だ。

One of the variant techniques using the Hiraishin technique. The user uses spacetime teleportation to get into the enemy’s blind spot and then, so fast that they don’t notice, stabs them in the vitals. Before the founding of Konohagakure, the second hokage used this technique to defeat Izuna, younger brother of Madara. Even against a powerful enemy on their guard, this blow has a powerful effect.

そして背後から一撃！手の内を知らなければ、およそ避けることかなわぬ瞬速の不意打ち！！

Then a single blow from behind! An instantaneous surprise attack that’s impossible to avoid if you don’t know it’s coming!!

サッ

*wham*


Madara couldn't dodge Lee, Gaara, Tsunade, A, any of the Bijuus. Hashirama is not dodging jackshit especially from 3 meters. Minato left all of them in the dust by a HUGE distance.


----------



## Bonly (Jan 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Doesn't matter.



Yes it does.



> Alive Madara reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishin twice. Alive Madara = Hashirama.



-snip- let me fix that for you.

What you mean to say is that Alive Madara *WITH HASHI'S SAGE MODE*(which you left out for some weird reason) was able to react to Tobi's Hiraishin attacks twice. 

Alive *SAGE MODE* Madara does not equal Hashi *WITHOUT SAGE MODE*.

Now I put that in all caps so maybe you might understand that just because Madara did such doesn't mean non SM Hashi will as well.



> Minato's not landing FTG.



Yes he is.


----------



## Negrito (Jan 27, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Lets not forget that young Ei =/= prime Shippuden/War Arc Ei in terms of speed. Young Ei is featless. Alive Minato, thats right - defeated only featless characters, such as young Obito, who reacted to him and almost killed him, fodders during the war and young Ei.



Featless? What are you talking about? By your logic alive Minato was alo featless, so it is moot. Also how did Ay improve his speed? Do you have any proof or a statement for it?



> Madara could react to prime V2 Ei while being an Edo, his clones were so fast they could tag V2 Ei and alive Madara outpased SM Naruto. Hashirama is in the same speed class. And he is a sensor + regeneration and insane stamina. He can beat Minato.



Ay was using his V2 speed? All Madara did was block with his hands. Five of his MKB were unable to tag Ay until Ay stopped to be concerned with Tsunade. Hashirama never engaged the same "alive Madara" that reacted to a worn out SM Naruto in Taijutsu. Also that Madara had SM of his own (or Hahi's lol) and Hashi's own cells to boot.

Sensing isn't going to do anything for Hashi from that distance, plus it's Minato's speed we're talking about here. Regenation is nice,  but won't save him from getting beheaded once he is tagged.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 27, 2015)

> was able to react to Tobi's Hiraishin attacks twice.



Actually we do not even know what happened off-panel. Madara could have used Susanoo/ Limbo/ST
or whatever the heck he has. None of which Hashirama has.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 27, 2015)

But Hashirama will know it's coming. It's still irrelevant considering multiple high-tier ninjas can counter Hiraishin due to the fact that if your striking speed is embarrasingly slow, then you're not doing shit. His best performance was against a young featless Obito and he struggled quite a bit. 

 Edo Madara can block V2 Ei. Blind Alive Madara far surpasses that meaning Alive Madara can effortlessly dodge Ei. Madara also stated that Tsunade is slower than Ei which means Madara outspeeds. 

 He was attached to the Juubi, omfg. Suggesting he can't dodge V1 Lee is ridiculous when he bitch slapped and rekt 2 high tier opponents that would fuck V1 Lee up very badly.

 He flew straight into Gaara, you can't seriously use that as evidence?

 Oh, he can dodge A. SM Naruto dodged 3rd Raikage. Blind Alive Madara blitzed SM Naruto. Alive Madara = Hashirama, therefore, Hashirama can blitz Raikage.

 You seriously aren't suggesting that just b/c he didn't dodge all of the Bijuus means he gets phucked up by Minato? Let me remind you that Hashirama had a hard enough time dodging Madara using 100% Kurama. Minato can't even handle 100% Kurama and had to seal half of it inside of him and you're suggesting that just b/c Madara can't even dodge all the bijuu that he loses to Minato? Minato can't even handle Kurama.

 C'mon now.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 27, 2015)

Minato wins if he has FTG. Take away FTG and gets smashed.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 27, 2015)

> =NarutoX28;52771090]But Hashirama will know it's coming.


No he won't. And even if he did, it would be too late. Matter of fact Minato only needs shunshin here. 


> It's still irrelevant considering multiple high-tier ninjas can counter Hiraishin due to the fact that if your striking speed is embarrasingly slow, then you're not doing shit.


The only ones did are the Juubi's hosts. Both of which shits in Hashirama. Needless to say, Hashirama's striking speed is even lower, so your point is irrelevant. Unless you can show a feat of Hashirama that shows otherwise. 



> His best performance was against a young featless Obito and he struggled quite a bit.



lol. Yeah, defeating him without a scratch is obviously a struggle. That obito had learned all of Madara's jutsu by the way. 
Just like how Hashirama struggled to defeat featless Kakuzu. 


> Edo Madara can block V2 Ei. Blind Alive Madara far surpasses that meaning Alive Madara can effortlessly dodge Ei. Madara also stated that Tsunade is slower than Ei which means Madara outspeeds.


Block =/= faster. Blind alive Madara couldn't even dodge Gaara's attack or any of the Bijuus. 
And he couldn't even dodge Tsunade by the way. 


> He was attached to the Juubi, omfg. Suggesting he can't dodge V1 Lee is ridiculous when he bitch slapped and rekt 2 high tier opponents that would fuck V1 Lee up very badly.


Just like how he bitch slap Hashirama. 



> He flew straight into Gaara, you can't seriously use that as evidence?


I already did. 



> Oh, he can dodge A. SM Naruto dodged 3rd Raikage. Blind Alive Madara blitzed SM Naruto. Alive Madara = Hashirama, therefore, Madara can blitz Raikage.


No he can't and he never did. 



> You seriously aren't suggesting that just b/c he didn't dodge all of the Bijuus means he gets phucked up by Minato? Let me remind you that Hashirama had a hard enough time dodging Madara using 100% Kurama. Minato can't even handle 100% Kurama and had to seal half of it inside of him and you're suggesting that just b/c Madara can't even dodge all the bijuu that he loses to Minato? Minato can't even handle Kurama.


And you are not seriously suggesting that because that happen to drained SM Naruto who was not even fighting that means Hashirama would do?  
Or is it your precious double standards?  


- Minato saved Kushina from full Kurama even though he was at the end of the village. Needless to say Hashirama needed his wife to seal Kurama. 



> Minato can't even handle Kurama.


Except he did. Also, that's such a foolish comparison. Hashirama can't even handle some fodders in the war. You see what I did there?  



> C'mon now.


Yes indeed. Minato outpaced your beloeved Hashirama in canon, so quit the nonsense already. 
Or go read chapter 630/631. Minato does not even need FTG.

Why did not Hashirama start crying in the manga
"But, But I am Madara's equal :amazed , Madara did this and that, so I should have arraived before Minato. That's not fair,  madara will do it to Tobirama. "


----------



## Trojan (Jan 27, 2015)

That's how Hashirama looks when fighting Kurama. 
Minato was without a scratch. The ONLY attack he got is when HE chose to step in to save his child.
And he was already dead anyway because of the SF. 


I find it amusing though how the supposedly great Hashirama can't have feats of his own
and how his fans always bring madara as if the thread is about him. 

It's absolutly ridiculous to think rivals must be equal in everything.

We can't say that Minato is superior to A & B and as such he has better Taijutsu, chakra, body.
We can't say Mu has Genjutsu attacks because the Mizukage has.
We can't say Kakashi is as good in taijutsu as Gai because his rival.
and we can't say Naruto is good in Genjutsu because of Sasuke.

Or the other way around that
A is a sealing jutsu master and will troll Obito's Kamui because he is Minato's "rival" if that can be said.
and the same thing with the other characters...

I honestly haven't seen any fandom doing that and take every feats of other character and giving them to the first
other than Hashirama fandome! 

Edit: I forgot Minato's stolen FTG feats. 



Thank you for your ignored effort.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

> Featless? What are you talking about? By your logic alive Minato was alo featless, so it is moot. Also how did Ay improve his speed? Do you have any proof or a statement for it?



Yes, featless. Because i dont count beating featless characters as feats.

Well, through years of training. I wanna see young Ei's feats to suggest he was even close to his later, prime self.



> Ay was using his V2 speed? All Madara did was block with his hands. Five of his MKB were unable to tag Ay until Ay stopped to be concerned with Tsunade. Hashirama never engaged the same "alive Madara" that reacted to a worn out SM Naruto in Taijutsu. Also that Madara had SM of his own (or Hahi's lol) and Hashi's own cells to boot.
> 
> Sensing isn't going to do anything for Hashi from that distance, plus it's Minato's speed we're talking about here. Regenation is nice, but won't save him from getting beheaded once he is tagged.



Yes, he was using his V2 speed. And Madara blocked his V2 speed punch with his hands point blank. Thats much more impressive than anything alive Minato has done. 

1. Do you have any proof clones are as fast as the original? 
2. Ei couldnt dodge clones Susanoo punch and blocked it instead. 

Hashirama, reanimated without his full power, reacted to Edo Madara. It is logical that Hashirama would have reacted to RT Madara if he was alive and with his full power.

Hashi's cells have nothing to do with speed and reflexes. Plus, Madara was without SM and blind when he outpased SM Naruto. He also was blind when he outpased Sasuke.

Minato is not as fast as Hashirama in close combat. Hashirama will react to him and beat him there. Plus, Minato wont be able to do anything to Hashirama.



> Actually we do not even know what happened off-panel. Madara could have used Susanoo/ Limbo/ST
> or whatever the heck he has. None of which Hashirama has.



Yeah, and Edo Madara put black rods off-panel, just like in this case. But what we can see in Manga is Hashirama's speed alowing him to react to Edo Madara without much of a problem.

And Madara never fodderstomped Hashirama.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 27, 2015)

As I told you before your own ignorance is NOT a proof of anything. Who give a darn whether you consider
characters with your limited knowledge featless? Who cares if you do not know what happened? 

We KNOW it happened! Your own ignorance is hardly an excuse. 



> And Madara never fodderstomped Hashirama.


Well, you are still as delusional as ever. 


> Hashirama's speed alowing him to react to Edo Madara without much of a problem.



Must be why he putted those rods up his "back".


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

> No he won't. And even if he did, it would be too late. Matter of fact Minato only needs shunshin here.



Matter of fact - Minato is not as fast as Hashirama. He cant beat him in close combat.



> The only ones did are the Juubi's hosts. Both of which shits in Hashirama. Needless to say, Hashirama's striking speed is even lower, so your point is irrelevant. Unless you can show a feat of Hashirama that shows otherwise.



Well, Minato was amped by Kurama's chakra. His speed was much higher than in base. 

Hashirama's feat - being fast enough to react to Madara's strike and react to Madara in general. Hashirama sh*ts on base Minato. 



> lol. Yeah, defeating him without a scratch is obviously a struggle. That obito had learned all of Madara's jutsu by the way.
> Just like how Hashirama struggled to defeat featless Kakuzu.



Without a scratch? As i remember, Minato hurt his leg when he escaped Obito's Kamui. And Obito almost killed him with his Kamui. 

Well, is there any information about Obito learning every Madara's jutsu? And what speed feats does young Obito have? 

And lol, Hashi's fight with Kakuzu happened off-panel. 



> Block =/= faster. Blind alive Madara couldn't even dodge Gaara's attack or any of the Bijuus.
> And he couldn't even dodge Tsunade by the way.



LOL, with that kind of logic, dodging with teleportation =/= faster. Madara blocked his punch with his own speed, point blank. Edo Madara is fast enough to keep up with Ei's max speed. Alive Madara is even faster. And Hashirama is in the same speed class as Madara.

He couldnt dodge Gaara's attack because he was in a free fall and attack was AoE. 

And LOL, couldnt dodge Tsunade? Scan please.



> Just like how he bitch slap Hashirama.



Who was immobilised at that time. Plus, Edo Hashirama reacted to Edo Madara. 



> I already did.



And its useless. Because that proves nothing. I countered that arguement pretty easily.



> No he can't and he never did.



Well, i agree that alive Madara wont blitz V2 Raikage.



> And you are not seriously suggesting that because that happen to drained SM Naruto who was not even fighting that means Hashirama would do?
> Or is it your precious double standards?
> 
> 
> - Minato saved Kushina from full Kurama even though he was at the end of the village. Needless to say Hashirama needed his wife to seal Kurama.



If Hashirama was alive and was in the same place as alive blind Madara, he would have done the same. Also, Tsunade healed Naruto during the war.

Needless to say Hashirama defeated Madara and 100% Kurama at once without dieing. 



> Except he did. Also, that's such a foolish comparison. Hashirama can't even handle some fodders in the war. You see what I did there?



Except he can.



> Yes indeed. Minato outpaced your beloeved Hashirama in canon, so quit the nonsense already.
> Or go read chapter 630/631. Minato does not even need FTG.
> 
> Why did not Hashirama start crying in the manga
> "But, But I am Madara's equal , Madara did this and that, so I should have arraived before Minato. That's not fair, madara will do it to Tobirama. "



Yeah, in travel speed. With Shunshin. Base Minato cant compete with Hashirama in combat speed.



> That's how Hashirama looks when fighting Kurama.
> Minato was without a scratch. The ONLY attack he got is when HE chose to step in to save his child.
> And he was already dead anyway because of the SF.



The fact is - Minato couldnt defeat Kurama by himself without dieing.

And lol, Hashirama fought 100% Kurama and MADARA at the same time.



> I find it amusing though how the supposedly great Hashirama can't have feats of his own
> and how his fans always bring madara as if the thread is about him.
> 
> It's absolutly ridiculous to think rivals must be equal in everything.



ABC logic. Do you know what it is?

And Hashirama reacted to Madara. LOL, he even had time to make a mokuton clone when they fought their last "alive" battle.



> We can't say that Minato is superior to A & B and as such he has better Taijutsu, chakra, body.
> We can't say Mu has Genjutsu attacks because the Mizukage has.
> We can't say Kakashi is as good in taijutsu as Gai because his rival.
> and we can't say Naruto is good in Genjutsu because of Sasuke.



Hashirama, in canon, reacted to Madara's speed. Madara couldnt take him down in close combat. Thats the point.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

> As I told you before your own ignorance is NOT a proof of anything. Who give a darn whether you consider
> characters with your limited knowledge featless? Who cares if you do not know what happened?
> 
> We KNOW it happened! Your own ignorance is hardly an excuse.



Off-panel. Do you know what it is? I am not using my ignorance as a proof of anything - you are trying to use events as proofs without knowing ANYTHING about those events.



> Well, you are still as delusional as ever.



And you dont pay attention to details, as usual.



> Must be why he putted those rods up his "back".



Which happened off-panel. 

And dont forget Hashirama immobilised him twice.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Too much to bother with. Especially with a blindfold hater.
> I did not read yet (though I will) but I am sure it's all BS.



I am not a hater of any character in Manga. I just dont like fanboys who are trying to hype their favorite characters with their own fantasy.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 27, 2015)

> [=StarWanderer;52771435]Matter of fact - Minato is not as fast as Hashirama. He cant beat him in close combat.


Anyone who is not mentally challenged know that Minato shits in Hashirama in term of speed. 


> Well, Minato was amped by Kurama's chakra. His speed was much higher than in base.
> 
> Hashirama's feat - being fast enough to react to Madara's strike and react to Madara in general. Hashirama sh*ts on base Minato.



Anyone who is not MC can see that Minato was in base when left them in the dust. 




> Without a scratch? As i remember, Minato hurt his leg when he escaped Obito's Kamui. And Obito almost killed him with his Kamui.
> 
> Well, is there any information about Obito learning every Madara's jutsu? And what speed feats does young Obito have?
> 
> And lol, Hashi's fight with Kakuzu happened off-panel.


- So, it's not Kurama. Thank you.
- Yes there is obviously silly. Your ignorance strikes once again.  
Link removed

- You use your own ignorance again. 


> LOL, with that kind of logic, dodging with teleportation =/= faster. Madara blocked his punch with his own speed, point blank. Edo Madara is fast enough to keep up with Ei's max speed. Alive Madara is even faster.* And Hashirama is in the same speed class as Madara.*


Prove the bold. 


> He couldnt dodge Gaara's attack because he was in a free fall and attack was AoE.
> 
> And LOL, couldnt dodge Tsunade? Scan please.


- So, he couldn't.
- When Tsunade arrived with Teleportation jutsu. When she used her seal for the first time
and when she attacked him with A/Onoki. 



> Who was immobilised at that time. Plus, Edo Hashirama reacted to Edo Madara.


Because Madara fodderstompped him already, and Hashirama couldn't react to any attack. 




> And its useless. Because that proves nothing. I countered that arguement pretty easily.


you only proven your own ignorance which did not need any further proofs anyway. 



> If Hashirama was alive and was in the same place as alive blind Madara, he would have done the same. Also, Tsunade healed Naruto during the war.


Prove that he would have done the same. 



> Needless to say Hashirama defeated Madara and 100% Kurama at once without dieing.


And couldn't defeat some featless fodders in the first war. 



> Except he can.


Must be why he got killed as a fodder. :rofl



> .





> .



Even his own granddaughter think of him as a loser. 
Link removed

-snip-


> The fact is - Minato couldnt defeat Kurama by himself without dieing.
> 
> And lol, Hashirama fought 100% Kurama and MADARA at the same time.


and he still got killed be your usual featless fodders.  



> ABC logic. Do you know what it is?


IQ. 


> And Hashirama reacted to Madara. LOL, he even had time to make a mokuton clone when they fought their last "alive" battle.


Of course. That's why he had those 6 rods in his back with his astonishing reaction.  



> Hashirama, in canon, reacted to Madara's speed. Madara couldnt take him down in close combat. Thats the point.


Madara who got fodderstompped by Lee. 

-snip-



StarWanderer said:


> Off-panel. Do you know what it is? I am not using my ignorance as a proof of anything - you are trying to use events as proofs without knowing ANYTHING about those events.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and how does "off-panel" change of the fact that it happened? 
You still use your own ignorance as a proof.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

> Anyone who is not mentally challenged know that Minato shits in Hashirama in term of speed.



Thats your fanboish opinion. Hashirama is in Madara's speed class. That puts him above Minato in reflexes and striking speed department.



> Anyone who is not MC can see that Minato was in base when left them in the dust.



Due to his superior travel speed. In combat speed, Hashirama sh*ts on him.



> - So, it's not Kurama. Thank you.
> - Yes there is obviously silly. Your ignorance strikes once again.
> Link removed
> 
> - You use your own ignorance again.



I'll teach you kinjutsu, rikudou's jutsu and Inyouton jutsu = i'll teach you all jutsu i know?

Anyway, knowledge doesnt make him fast.



> Prove the bold.



Fought with and reacted to him in close combat.



> - So, he couldn't.
> - When Tsunade arrived with Teleportation jutsu. When she used her seal for the first time
> and when she attacked him with A/Onoki.



So, he couldnt not because he wasnt fast enough. He was fast enough to dodge Gaara's sand and he proved that. He didnt dodge it because of sircumstances.

He blocked Tsunade's punch. He protected himself from Tsunade all the time she tried to attack him. And in the last instance, it was a combined attack of all 5 kage. Minato wouldnt survive that if he was in Madara's place.



> Because Madara fodderstompped him already, and Hashirama couldn't react to any attack.



Should i bring here a scan, or you will re-read the manga yourself? 

And again - it wasnt a fodderstomp. Do you know what "fodderstomp" means?



> you only proven your own ignorance which did not need any further proofs anyway.



I am not ignorant. And i pay attention to all things, even if they dont suit my point of view. You dont do such a thing. You are just trolling around.



> Prove that he would have done the same.



Physical stats in the same tier as those of alive Madara. 



> And couldn't defeat some featless fodders in the first war.



You are using events you dont know about at all as proofs of anything. Again. 



> Must be why he got killed as a fodder.



Facepalm.



> Quote:
> The Nidaime is the Shodai's younger brother by blood, who inherited his brother's dying wish and was called "Hokage" after the Shodai died.
> Quote:
> However, this was a time when the world was at war. At the same time the village began to flourish, he lost his life.
> ...



He was the one who created village system, was the first Hokage and was the only shinobi in history who could compete with Madara. Plus, he was respected all over the world, had family with kids... Yeah, such a loser. Hashirama even lived longer than Minato.



> Stupidity at its finest.



Logic at its finest. Or maybe you can explain why thats stupid?



> and he still got killed be your usual featless fodders.



Which happened off-panel. Usage of events you dont know anything about as proofs of anything. Again.



> IQ.



Nice answer, lol.



> Of course. That's why he had those 6 rods in his back with his astonishing reaction.



And you know why he had those rods in his back? Because rods thing happened off-panel. 



> Madara who got fodderstompped by Lee.



That old countered arguement again? Lee was amped by Kurama's chakra and Madara was immobilised due to his connection with 10 Tails.



> You must really hate yourself a lot then.



No, because i am not that type of debater.



> and how does "off-panel" change of the fact that it happened?
> You still use your own ignorance as a proof.



It doesnt change the fact that it happened. But why did that happen? Due to what? We dont know, because, as i wrote, it happened off-panel.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 27, 2015)

Would depend on Hashirama's regeneration tech. If it truly is on Byakugo level then it is possible for him to tire Minato out and mortally wound him eventually. If it is inferior then Minato wins by stacking damage by continuously warping around with Rasengan. Still going with Minato overall with mid-high diff.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2015)

Madara's willingness to leap into all the bijuus backed by a kage with full intentions of tanking and living leads me to believe Hashirama's regeneration is pretty godly.  Plot device body is pretty OP.

Minato might win if it's not, but it's still going to be hellish for him.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 27, 2015)

Is this matchup serious......minato blitzes once hashi is tagged he cuts his head off......3m jesus..


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Is this matchup serious......minato blitzes once hashi is tagged he cuts his head off......3m jesus..



Bring here some of base Minato's feats that puts him in a speed level enough to blitz Hashirama.


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 27, 2015)

Madara reacted to V2 Ay?

Sorry, he didn't.

V2 Ay hair spikes up like he went Super Saiyan:  

If you're going to use the weak excuse that his hair didn't spike up when he blitzed Minato, well his headband was holding it down then shown here: 3

If you want to use the excuse that  is V2 Ay ''Hurrr durrr his hair is spiked up'', its actually not, its just the way he was drawn and the ends up his slicked back sticks up normally much like . 

Theres a clear difference between V1 and V2 Ay and the manga even showed it was V1 Ay who attacked Madara: 

Fan fiction, not understanding the manga, saying it because someone else said it, or out right false statements in hoping someone doesn't notice). Whatever the reasons may be for the people claiming Madara blocked V2 Ay, you now know that its not true.

I don't care for this match-up but I wanted to point out something the people in this thread seemed to ill-informed about. Happy debating, people!


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2015)

Ei would not have said he needs some way to up his speed if he could have upped his speed by going V2.  The sheer difference between V1 and V2 assures that he'd at least try before admitting it's impossible for his source of pride.  

If you want to say that Ei didn't use his full speed in that punch, then he at least understood well enough from his skirmish that Madara would be able to keep up with his max speed, and didn't bother.  It's effectively the same.

Kishi is known to be inconsistent with his art and details sometimes, and makes errors.  I lean toward that being why his hair didn't stick up personally, but it's just a possibility.  Regardless, those makes more sense than Ei being totally out of character, and the narrative progression and intention being screwy.


----------



## Negrito (Jan 27, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Yes, featless. Because i dont count beating featless characters as feats.
> 
> Well, through years of training. I wanna see young Ei's feats to suggest he was even close to his later, prime self.



By your logic Minato is also featless in those instances. So what is the difference?

You're the one claiming Ay improved,  and that his younger self wasn't as fast as his "prime" self, as you put it, where is your evidence of this?  Ay could of improved in many other areas, your stating he is faster,  prove it.



> Yes, he was using his V2 speed. And Madara blocked his V2 speed punch with his hands point blank. Thats much more impressive than anything alive Minato has done.



A poster above already dismantled this claim.



> 1. Do you have any proof clones are as fast as the original?
> 2. Ei couldnt dodge clones Susanoo punch and blocked it instead.



Why does it matter? If they are not, do you have any concrete evidence to how much? He was still going against 5 of them at the same time.

When was it that Ay couldn't dodge a MKB's Susanoo punch?



> Hashirama, reanimated without his full power, reacted to Edo Madara. It is logical that Hashirama would have reacted to RT Madara if he was alive and with his full power.



Full power =/= more speed or reflexes. If you're going to claim this get some proof that suggest or out right tells us that the Edos didn't come back with their full speed and reactions. 



> Hashi's cells have nothing to do with speed and reflexes. Plus, Madara was without SM and blind when he outpased SM Naruto. He also was blind when he outpased Sasuke.



Madara used Shunshin in order to outpace, an exhausted SM Naruto.



> Minato is not as fast as Hashirama in close combat. Hashirama will react to him and beat him there. Plus, Minato wont be able to do anything to Hashirama.



What? Minato is faster than Tobirama, who was the fastest man alive when Hashirama was alive.



> Yeah, and Edo Madara put black rods off-panel, just like in this case. But what we can see in Manga is Hashirama's speed alowing him to react to Edo Madara without much of a problem.



When have we seen Hashirama react to Madara's Shunshin?



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Ei would not have said he needs some way to up his speed if he could have upped his speed by going V2.  The sheer difference between V1 and V2 assures that he'd at least try before admitting it's impossible for his source of pride.
> 
> If you want to say that Ei didn't use his full speed in that punch, then he at least understood well enough from his skirmish that Madara would be able to keep up with his max speed, and didn't bother.  It's effectively the same.
> 
> Kishi is known to be inconsistent with his art and details sometimes, and makes errors.  I lean toward that being why his hair didn't stick up personally, but it's just a possibility.  Regardless, those makes more sense than Ei being totally out of character, and the narrative progression and intention being screwy.



IMHO you also have to take into consideration Madara's Susanoo activation time, and what it would take to put Madara down for enough time for him to be sealed.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 27, 2015)

Where the fuck are we getting that sage Naruto was exhausted ?

You think that someone who fought Madara every single day for years, fought Madara for an entire 24 hours, fought Madara for hours at VOTE, and fought Madara for many chapters when reanimated has never once reacted to his shunshin ?


----------



## Negrito (Jan 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Where the fuck are we getting that sage Naruto was exhausted ?



Are you trying to imply that Naruto by that time hadn't been fighting for 2 days? Or that Naruto had just used a massive F:RS prior to the Madara incident? We already know to SM when Naruto uses his limit of F:RS



> You think that someone who fought Madara every single day for years, fought Madara for an entire 24 hours, fought Madara for hours at VOTE, and fought Madara for many chapters when reanimated has never once reacted to his shunshin ?



Hashirama didn't fight Madara every single day. He fought Madara alongside his clan, he wasn't alone for an entire day. Chapter count isn't a viable way to gauge time. We never saw Hashirama deal with an upgraded Madara's Shunshin. Which would be faster/better/stronger due to Hashirama DNA which does affect the potency of Jutsu.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 27, 2015)

minato carries a kunai in his hand a marker has atleast a 5m range around it to use ftg match starts at 3m whats there to discuss here....hashis not even in sm....base regeneration is not even close to byakyogyo decapitation ends it hashi was going to kill himself with a kunai for godsakes...


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

> By your logic Minato is also featless in those instances. So what is the difference?
> 
> You're the one claiming Ay improved, and that his younger self wasn't as fast as his "prime" self, as you put it, where is your evidence of this? Ay could of improved in many other areas, your stating he is faster, prove it.



Featless character beats another featless character. 

We cant compare young Ei and Shippuden/War Arc Ei because there is a hufe time gap between them. And because young Ei has no feats. When young Ei will have feats as good as prime Ei, than we can compare them.



> A poster above already dismantled this claim.



1. Ei's hair was spikey, just like in his V2 mode when he began to charge at Madara with Mei.
2. Ei admitted Madara could counter even his speed and he needed to up his speed to crush Madara's defences. If it wasnt V2 and Ei knew he doesnt need Onoki's help, he would have turn on V2 mode there and attacked Madara, just like in his fight with Sasuke.
3. If Ei was all out on Sasuke, than there is no reason to hold himself back against Madara.



> Why does it matter? If they are not, do you have any concrete evidence to how much? He was still going against 5 of them at the same time.
> 
> When was it that Ay couldn't dodge a MKB's Susanoo punch?



Edo Madara split his chakra in 25 mokuton clones. Each of his clones, logically, have only a fraction of his overall power. And yeah, he was going against 5 of them, but one of them managed to hit him so fast Ei blocked that hit, instead of dodging it.

You may re-read that chapter.



> Full power =/= more speed or reflexes. If you're going to claim this get some proof that suggest or out right tells us that the Edos didn't come back with their full speed and reactions.



In case with Edo Tensei, full power also means full physical capabilities. Just look at Orochimaru's Edo Tensei Hashirama and Tobirama.



> Madara used Shunshin in order to outpace, an exhausted SM Naruto.



Exhausted? Sakura healed Naruto before Madara's ressurection.



> What? Minato is faster than Tobirama, who was the fastest man alive when Hashirama was alive.



Tobirama put a FTG formula on Juubito during their confrontation. KCM Minato did nothing, got blitzed and would have been destroyed if not for Tobirama, who saved him there. Tobirama's striking speed and reflexes are better than even those of KCM Minato, let alone base Minato.



> When have we seen Hashirama react to Madara's Shunshin?



During their fight when Shinju tree was going ready to bloom. I am not going to put a scan here due to my bad internet connection.

Hashirama reacted to his strike. Shunshin has nothing to do with striking speed.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> Madara reacted to V2 Ay?
> 
> Sorry, he didn't.
> 
> ...



I am not going to counter this, since i did it lots of times before. Just read my previous posts. And not only here - in other threads too. If you want.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 27, 2015)

Negrito said:


> Are you trying to imply that Naruto by that time hadn't been fighting for 2 days? Or that Naruto had just used a massive F:RS prior to the Madara incident? We already know to SM when Naruto uses his limit of F:RS
> 
> 
> 
> Hashirama didn't fight Madara every single day. He fought Madara alongside his clan, he wasn't alone for an entire day. Chapter count isn't a viable way to gauge time. We never saw Hashirama deal with an upgraded Madara's Shunshin. Which would be faster/better/stronger due to Hashirama DNA which does affect the potency of Jutsu.




Have you already forgot that Kurama actively feeds Naruto chakra for massive time periods? To think Naruto was actually exhausted at that point is laughable.  He may not has been able to activate a full BM cloak( Kurama was gathering chakra) but considering he JUST entered sage mode, his chakra in that mode wasn't close to exhausted. The COFRS he made was indeed large, but Kurama was already replenishing his by that time, and war arc Naruto is massively superior to pain arc Naruto, it's also to note that even pain arc Naruto after draining close to all his chakra was still able to react to Deva pain in the same manner as before. So his physical stats( reactions, speed) Arent effected in contrast to his actual chakra.  Naruto also usually shows an exhausted face when he's actually exhausted.... And against Madara that wasn't present.

here
This panel makes it very evident that it was Madara and Hashirama who were fighting eachother day and out. Seeing as they were rivals, and the leaders of their clan( towards the end) it only make sense for them to fight eachother. They prolly were to powerful to fight others anyway. Of course they didn't 100% fight only eachother ALL the time, but they encountered eachother many upon many times, and Hashirama held the edge for his entire lifespan sooo...? Why wouldn't he be able to react to Madaras Shunshin ?

Also Hashiramas DNA doesn't increase speed. Zetsu enhancements increase physical prowess but that's about it . I mean unless you can prove otherwise .

EDIT: he also fought Madara an entire day here: here


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Where the fuck are we getting that sage Naruto was exhausted ?
> 
> You think that someone who fought Madara every single day for years, fought Madara for an entire 24 hours, fought Madara for hours at VOTE, and fought Madara for many chapters when reanimated has never once reacted to his shunshin ?



What you say is true and makes sense but the counter argument defeats that. Sure Madara and Hashirama were on par but Tobirama *was the fastest* of their generation, so he was faster than both of them. Manga already stated Minato was faster than Tobirama and it couldn't have been referring to Hirashin because both techniques are instant, so one can't be faster than the other. That makes Minato faster than Hashirama and Madara.

Edit-



StarWanderer said:


> I am not going to counter this, since i did it lots of times before. Just read my previous posts. And not only here - in other threads too. If you want.



I'm not looking for a counter, but whoever you're debating with might. I was just pointing it out because after you said it a few people were going along with it and I was like "huh", "what" I knew it was wrong so I didn't think you all should continue with accepting it as true because it could be brought up in future Madara threads.

P.S. Prime Hiruzen stomps them both.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

> What you say is true and makes sense but the counter argument defeats that. Sure Madara and Hashirama were on par but Tobirama was the fastest of their generation, so he was faster than both of them. Manga already stated Minato was faster than Tobirama and it couldn't have been referring to Hirashin because both techniques are instant, so one can't be faster than the other. That makes Minato faster than Hashirama and Madara.



Manga stated Minato's Shunshin is faster than Tobirama's Shunshin. Thats all. Nothing about their striking speed, their reaction speed, reflexes...

Explain to me, why Tobirama put a FTG mark on Juubito and KCM Minato couldnt do anything to Juubito and got himself blitzed.



> I'm not looking for a counter, but whoever you're debating with might. I was just pointing it out because after you said it a few people were going along with it and I was like "huh", "what" I knew it was wrong so I didn't think you all should continue with accepting it as true because it could be brought up in future Madara threads.
> 
> P.S. Prime Hiruzen stomps them both.



Prime Hiruzen? The same Hiruzen who doesnt have feats even close to those of Madara and Hashirama? Madara wrecks him. Hashirama wrecks him too.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 27, 2015)

@sword

Tobirama has the fastest CQC ability on top of having FTG. So of course tobirama can be seen as faster then Hashirama and Madara which he really is .

Except no, the viz version says that Minato's teleportation is "better"( not faster) then Tobirama's. And considering Minato has FTG lvl 2 as well as a space time barrier, I'd agree. The most you could EVER argue is that Minato has a faster shunshin( unlikely) then then Tobirama and that doesn't relate to CQC ability.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 27, 2015)

I think Hashirama would win. 

Madara credited tanking bijuu pin-ball to Hashirama's regenerative powers

Hashirama's regen wasn't stipulated to be restricted. With that ability,  Madara's body was being flung off spiked bijuu horns with no damage, so I'm not entirely confident Minato could even fatally wound Hashirama.

Hashi should also be around as fast as alive madara. Minato is faster, but I think the disparity in durability, regen, and stamina is altogether a greater indicator of the victor than any discrepancy that the two have where speed is concerned.


----------



## Negrito (Jan 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Have you already forgot that Kurama actively feeds Naruto chakra for massive time periods? To think Naruto was actually exhausted at that point is laughable.  He may not has been able to activate a full BM cloak( Kurama was gathering chakra) but considering he JUST entered sage mode, his chakra in that mode wasn't close to exhausted. The COFRS he made was indeed large, but Kurama was already replenishing his by that time, and war arc Naruto is massively superior to pain arc Naruto, it's also to note that even pain arc Naruto after draining close to all his chakra was still able to react to Deva pain in the same manner as before. So his physical stats( reactions, speed) Arent effected in contrast to his actual chakra.  Naruto also usually shows an exhausted face when he's actually exhausted.... And against Madara that wasn't present.



I guess this just magically didn't apply at the Naruto vs. Sasuke fight? When it was blatantly stated by Kurama that Naruto was exhausted and out of chakra.

Naruto has been exhausting himself for quite some time during the war, that he kept himself going is a testament to his resilience to give up. 



> Hashirama's regenerative powers
> This panel makes it very evident that it was Madara and Hashirama who were fighting eachother day and out. Seeing as they were rivals, and the leaders of their clan( towards the end) it only make sense for them to fight eachother. They prolly were to powerful to fight others anyway. Of course they didn't 100% fight only eachother ALL the time, but they encountered eachother many upon many times, and Hashirama held the edge for his entire lifespan sooo...? Why wouldn't he be able to react to Madaras Shunshin ?



That is my very point, this "alive Madara" was an upgraded and more powerful version than the one fought previously. 



> Also Hashiramas DNA doesn't increase speed. Zetsu enhancements increase physical prowess but that's about it . I mean unless you can prove otherwise .



I never said it increased Madara's speed, but it does increase his Jutsu potency, which Shunshin benefits from.



> EDIT: he also fought Madara an entire day here: Hashirama's regenerative powers



The very scan you provided shows the rest of the clan being there.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 27, 2015)

Negrito said:


> I guess this just magically didn't apply at the Naruto vs. Sasuke fight? When it was blatantly stated by Kurama that Naruto was exhausted and out of chakra.
> 
> Naruto has been exhausting himself for quite some time during the war, that he kept himself going is a testament to his resilience to give up.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kyu (Jan 27, 2015)

> Madara credited tanking bijuu pin-ball to Hashirama's regenerative powers



You can't pretend he wasn't in Sage Mode which makes every single stat skyrocket.

What's with people giving base Hashirama SM Madara's feats?



> Hashirama's regen wasn't stipulated to be restricted. With that ability, Madara's body was being flung off spiked bijuu horns with no damage, so I'm not entirely confident Minato could even fatally wound Hashirama.


Minato can behead people y'know?

Sage Madara appeared to be incapable of regrowing a limb in the heat of battle - that is with senjutsu powered regeneration.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 27, 2015)

Kyu said:


> You can't pretend he wasn't in Sage Mode which makes every single stat skyrocket.
> 
> What's with people giving base Hashirama SM Madara's feats?
> 
> ...


Kyu, Madara specifically credited Hashirama's regenerative jutsu as being the reason he was able to tank those attacks, not sage mode or senjutsu. The reason outlined for why he was able to do what he did was Hashirama's regenerative jutsu. Any durability increase due to sage mode was _not_ commented on by the author.

I have my doubts Minato can cut off Hashirama's head given what Madara tanked with his ability. The Bijuu horns didn't puncture him mind you.

 Hashirama's  speed is also in a close enough ballpark where he can reasonably engage Minato imo. The speed gap imo isn't so steep and drastic that Minato has enough time to cut off his head before Hashirama can do anything. Just realistically speaking, author intent and all, Kishi would never draw that happening.

Even assuming Minato could get neck blows in, Minato may not even be able to cut deep enough before Hashirama's neck heals/tanks it. It's called regeneration but it clearly gives durability as Madara demonstrated.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 27, 2015)

Yet Minato chose to behead Young, featless Obito instead of using Rasengan?

 Oh wait ....


----------



## Kyu (Jan 28, 2015)

> Kyu, Madara specifically credited Hashirama's regenerative jutsu as being the reason he was able to tank those attacks, not sage mode or senjutsu. The reason outlined for why he was able to do what he did was Hashirama's regenerative jutsu. Any durability increase due to sage mode was _not_ commented on by the author.



So you choose to ignore the fact that Madara was in Sage Mode(keep in mind everything in this mode is >>> base Hashi) the whole time because it wasn't pointed out for you?

Oh boy.



> I have my doubts Minato can cut off Hashirama's head given what Madara tanked with his ability. The Bijuu horns didn't puncture him mind you.



Absolutely, let's continue to disregard the Sage markings on his freakish manboob indicating he's gained all the perks of Sage Mode - monstrous durability and all. Yeeeah s'okay.




> Hashirama's  speed is also in a close enough ballpark where he can reasonably engage Minato imo.



I can't say I disagree here.

He'll immediately be forced on the defensive though.



> Even assuming Minato could get neck blows in, Minato may not even be able to cut deep enough before Hashirama's neck heals . It's called regeneration but it clearly gives durability as Madara demonstrated.



For the cut to heal before Minato can finish his swing it would need to be nigh instantaneous regeneration.

Senjutsu fueled regen doesn't heal that fast.

If that were the case those bullet wounds would've closed up when Madara noticed his movement abruptly stopped. Instead what happened? They didn't fully heal up until *after* he regained his rinnegan.



> tanks it



Nope.



NarutoX28 said:


> Yet Minato chose to behead Young, featless Obito instead of using Rasengan?
> 
> Oh wait ....



More "h-he didn't do it n the manga so he can't do it here" bullshit. 

Rather than showing your ass, how about you explain to me why Minato is physically unable to decapitate someone in an environment where PIS isn't a interminable factor leading up to the actions/decisions made.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

> More "h-he didn't do it n the manga so he can't do it here" bullshit.
> 
> Rather than showing your ass, how about you explain to me why Minato is physically unable to decapitate someone in an environment where PIS isn't a interminable factor leading up to the actions/decisions made.



Because it is highly debatable if base Minato is as fast, or faster than prime V2 Ei, to whom both Madara and Hashirama can react.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 28, 2015)

Kyu said:


> So you choose to ignore the fact that Madara was in Sage Mode(keep in mind everything in this mode is >>> base Hashi) the whole time because it wasn't pointed out for you?



 This is irrelevant as he still blitzed SM Naruto without senjutsu chakra anyways. Funny how Madara mentioned regeneration instead of an enhancement of his skills. Even if it did boost Madara, Madara himself mentions that it was very little chakra meaning it barely boosted his stats if at all.







> Absolutely, let's continue to disregard the Sage markings on his freakish manboob indicating he's gained all the perks of Sage Mode - monstrous durability and all. Yeeeah s'okay.



 Yet it was very little chakra for Madara. The only thing that was significant to Madara was his regeneration. Speed and reflexes were never even took into consideration.





> He'll immediately be forced on the defensive though.



 Yes, a guy who struggled against a young featless obito and a young featless Ei definitely will force one of the most powerful ninjas in the world on the defensive.




> For the cut to heal before Minato can finish his swing it would need to be nigh instantaneous regeneration.



 Which it is in this case.



> Senjutsu fueled regen doesn't heal that fast.
> 
> If that were the case those bullet wounds would've closed up when Madara noticed his movement abruptly stopped. Instead what happened? They didn't fully heal up until *after* he regained his rinnegan.



 Oh yes because being paralyzed from the inside and bashed around by 9 Bijuu doesn't even compare to a small slash to the neck. Even Tsunade can heal from having body pierced through by Susanoo.






> More "h-he didn't do it n the manga so he can't do it here" bullshit.
> 
> Rather than showing your ass, how about you explain to me why Minato is physically unable to decapitate someone in an environment where PIS isn't a interminable factor leading up to the actions/decisions made.



 Minato's best feats are against weaker opponents that don't even compare to Hashirama's speed. He barely got punched in by Ei. Hashirama's a lot faster. Minato himself isn't reacting to a blitz from Hashirama. If he could've effortlessly punched in featless Obito, he could've, but he didn't. 

 Minato can't handle 100% Kyuubi. Hashirama can against 100% Kyuubi and Madara.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> This is irrelevant as he still blitzed SM Naruto without senjutsu chakra anyways. Funny how Madara mentioned regeneration instead of an enhancement of his skills. Even if it did boost Madara, Madara himself mentions that it was very little chakra meaning it barely boosted his stats if at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



By the way, is there anything in manga, or Databooks, about Sage Mode increasing *speed and reflexes*? Because i dont remember such a thing, to be honest.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 28, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> By the way, is there anything in manga, or Databooks, about Sage Mode increasing *speed and reflexes*? Because i dont remember such a thing, to be honest.



 Personally, I would think so as SM Naruto showed himself to be faster than Base Naruto.

 However, the only thing Madara gained that would be notable is sage sensing and enhanced regeneration. No specific mention of speed and reflexes improving or a notable increase of strength compared to his reaction when he gained the Rinnegan or when he was actually revived.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Personally, I would think so as SM Naruto showed himself to be faster than Base Naruto.
> 
> However, the only thing Madara gained that would be notable is sage sensing and enhanced regeneration. No specific mention of speed and reflexes improving or a notable increase of strength compared to his reaction when he gained the Rinnegan or when he was actually revived.



Ok. Thanks.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

SM was said to enhance everything you are and do.  That includes speed and reflexes.  Especially reflexes, because Naruto sage Sage Mode would allow him to react to Sandaime Raikage's attack better, even if SM is overall slower than KCM mode.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 28, 2015)

> So you choose to ignore the fact that Madara was in Sage Mode(keep in mind everything in this mode is >>> base Hashi) the whole time because it wasn't pointed out for you?
> 
> Oh boy.





> Absolutely, let's continue to disregard the Sage markings on his freakish manboob indicating he's gained all the perks of Sage Mode - monstrous durability and all. Yeeeah s'okay.



Well, I don't ignore sage mode boosts. I just understand they take a backseat. The aforementioned general  benefits of sage mode were there, but they didn't warrant mention. Hashirama's regen however was explicitly mentioned by the author. And so, if anything I think it's fair to say the regen was the preeminent/ most significant factor out of all the factors that contributed to him tanking those hits. 

You on the contrary seem to be suggesting that even though hashi's regen was mentioned/given the spot light/pointed out in particular, we should give more or equal credence/credit to SM durability. 



> For the cut to heal before Minato can finish his swing it would need to be nigh instantaneous regeneration.
> 
> Senjutsu fueled regen doesn't heal that fast.
> 
> If that were the case those bullet wounds would've closed up when Madara noticed his movement abruptly stopped. Instead what happened? They didn't fully heal up until after he regained his rinnegan.


You misunderstood me here, I meant Minato would swing (with his normal ninja strength, and no cutting chakra flow) and be unable to completely cut through Hashirama's neck in one go, if at all, because of the durability given by the technique. 

Madara was tanking bullets/bijuu horns non lethally  and credited it to the regen ability. Minato has normal strength and no techniques that enhance his piercing ability beyond normal. 

I think it's reasonable to understand why I'm skeptical of a "normal ninja" for all intents  and purposes(as far as this is concerned) being able to cut through a durability technique like that with no difficulty "just because".


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 28, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I think Hashirama would win.
> 
> Madara credited tanking bijuu pin-ball to Hashirama's regenerative powers
> 
> ...



Hashirama's regenerative powers

sm madara was easily pierced y sasukes sword minato has shown very impressive striking strength minato can behead hashirama especially once marked sm does infact increase regeneration how can you deny it....minatos much faster in base with ftg its not close..

Hashirama's regenerative powers

this is hashi killing himself with a simple kunai...


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 28, 2015)

Sabre, 


> sm madara was easily pierced by sasukes sword


Sasuke used a stabbing motion in that instance, the argument is concerning a decapitating motion that would presumably involve a broader slicing motion, which would be more spread out and less penetrative than a stab. Madara was already pierced by bullets as Kyu linked, although even then the bullets did not go deep enough to kill Madara.



> minato has shown very impressive striking strength


Can you link me to his very impressive striking strength?


> sm does infact increase regeneration how can you deny it


I did not deny it, you are just wrongly weighing it as equal to Hashirama's regen


> minatos much faster in base with ftg its not close..





> Hashi should also be around as fast as alive madara(who blitzed SM Naruto). Minato is faster, but I think the disparity in durability, regen, and stamina is altogether a greater indicator of the victor than any discrepancy that the two may have where speed is concerned.





> Hashirama's regenerative powers
> 
> this is hashi killing himself with a simple kunai...


Ah, so your suggesting Hashirama had his regenerative jutsu active while actively trying to kill himself?


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 28, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Sabre,
> Sasuke used a stabbing motion in that instance, the argument is concerning a decapitating motion that would presumably involve a broader slicing motion, which would be more spread out and less penetrative than a stab. Madara was already pierced by bullets as Kyu linked, although even then the bullets did not go deep enough to kill Madara.
> 
> Can you link me to his very impressive striking strength?
> ...



katanas are meant as cutting weapons and are superior for cutting then piercing the difference would be negligible at best between a stabbing and cutting and minato has shown much better striking strength

Hashirama's regenerative powers

the rapid regeneration compared to tsunades was with sm and hashis regen is passive and is not activated so yeah he does not turn it on and off those bullets were not meant as an offensive attack their intent was supplementary so him not getting pulverized isnt that good a feat...

and this point is rather moot base hashi is not reacting to ftg at all....sm hashi was pumped full of rods by edo madara minato downplay is hilarious if people think he cant even land a clean blow on base hashi when 3 m from him holding a marked kunai:/


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 28, 2015)

^ You are still ignoring Minato's performance against a young, featless Obito, the latter who is far inferior to Hashirama. He could barely, I mean, barely land a blow on that Obito.

 Hashirama has far superior speed and reflexes. No way does he lose.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

Minato is gonna be hella pressured FTG or not.

Minato vs Ay: Jiraiya made note of this himself
Jiraiya made note of this himself

Naruto vs an Ay's that's most likely even faster: Jiraiya made note of this himself

Naruto on sage modes reactions vs KCM: Jiraiya made note of this himself

Sage Naruto vs Madara: Jiraiya made note of this himself

Minato may not be " blized" but Hashirama's Shunshin alone is going to pressure the fuck out of him. He needs FTG here.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Minato is gonna be hella pressured FTG or not.
> 
> Minato vs Ay: Jiraiya made note of this himself
> Jiraiya made note of this himself
> ...



Lol jesus christ.....hashiramas going to be the one gettin pressured to living hell by minatos shunshin lets leave ftg

Jiraiya made note of this himself
Jiraiya made note of this himself
Link removed
Link removed

Tobirama the fastest shinobi of hashis time said his shunshin pales in comparison to minatos...minato managed to shunshin a hundred miles into the sea put a kunai there get back to the battlefield put markers around the juubi and teleport the juubidama without anyone noticing his presence before the hokages even made it to the battlefield much later...and supposedly hashis the one whose fasterck


----------



## Kyu (Jan 29, 2015)

Excuse the repetitive grammar...replying before I catch sum damn shuteye.




> This is irrelevant as he still blitzed SM Naruto without senjutsu chakra anyways.


Naruto blocked.



> Funny how Madara mentioned regeneration instead of an enhancement of his skills. Even if it did boost Madara, Madara himself mentions that it was very little chakra meaning it barely boosted his stats if at all.




To not be *turned into mush* by a Biju level pounding requires immense durability.

It's the sole contributor in keeping Madara's body intact so that he'd only have to regenerate from lacerations instead of a pile of unrecognizable mangled flesh.

I fail to see your point in even bringing Sage Madara into the discussion you're aware he shits on base Hashirama in nearly every combat oriented category, don't you?



> Which it is in this case.



Senjutsu augmented regeneration doing its job *after* Madara gets his eye back says otherwise.



> Yes, a guy who struggled against a young featless obito and a young featless Ei definitely will force one of the most powerful ninjas in the world on the defensive.



Obito summoned Kurama, mindraped him to do his faggy bidding and displayed kage-level reflexes. How in the bluest of blue fucks is he featless?

Btw, Minato spanked Obito with the odds against him.

Furthermore, he casually reacted to Ei once he got a general idea on how fast the fucker was.  Ei would make Hashirama(ITT) his bitch in a close quarters brawl -- something that would be as clear as day if you weren't busy savoring the taste of Hashirama's spunk.



> Oh yes because being paralyzed from the inside and bashed around by 9 Bijuu doesn't even compare to a small slash to the neck. Even Tsunade can heal from having body pierced through by Susanoo.



Having your head severed from your body isn't exactly what I would call a "small slash".



> Minato's best feats are against weaker opponents that don't even compare to Hashirama's speed. He barely got punched in by Ei. Hashirama's a lot faster.



Christ...



> Minato can't handle 100% Kyuubi. Hashirama can against 100% Kyuubi and Madara.




Neither can 7th Gate gai and he'd crush Hashirama in this taijutsu/weapons battle.



Lawrence777 said:


> Well, I don't ignore sage mode boosts. I just understand they take a backseat. The aforementioned general  benefits of sage mode were there, but they didn't warrant mention. Hashirama's regen however was explicitly mentioned by the author. And so, if anything I think it's fair to say the regen was the preeminent/ most significant factor out of all the factors that contributed to him tanking those hits.
> 
> You on the contrary seem to be suggesting that even though hashi's regen was mentioned/given the spot light/pointed out in particular, we should give more or equal credence/credit to SM durability.





			
				Paragraphs up because I'm a lazy fuck said:
			
		

> To not be *turned into mush* by a Biju level pounding requires immense durability.
> 
> It's the sole contributor in keeping Madara's body intact so that he'd only have to regenerate from lacerations instead of a pile of unrecognizable mangled flesh.





> You misunderstood me here, I meant Minato would swing (with his normal ninja strength, and no cutting chakra flow) and be unable to completely cut through Hashirama's neck in one go, if at all, because of the durability given by the technique.



durability of what technique?

If you're referring to his regen...we've been over this and that isn't the same thing as durability.


> Madara was tanking bullets/bijuu horns non lethally  and credited it to the regen ability. Minato has normal strength and no techniques that enhance his piercing ability beyond normal.
> 
> I think it's reasonable to understand why I'm skeptical of a "normal ninja" for all intents  and purposes(as far as this is concerned) being able to cut through a durability technique like that with no difficulty "just because".



Madara went Tyson on his ass and bit a chunk outta Hashi's arm.  He's not a tank like the 3rd Raikage or his son.

Don't get me wrong. I'm positive Hashirama is more durable than your average shinobi but not to a point where a kunai can't penetrate all the way through his flesh.

Ei felt Minato's kunai was a threat and moments later he thanked Bee for saving his hide.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

> Obito summoned Kurama, mindraped him to do his faggy bidding and displayed kage-level reflexes. How in the bluest of blue fucks is he featless?



LOL, kage-level reflexes? Says who? You? 

No he didnt display kage-level reflexes. In terms of reflexes and speed, he was *FEATLESS* at that moment. Competing with Minato, who could beat only featless characters at that moment, doesnt count as a feat. 

Ei was also featless. And Edo Madara already reacted to prime V2 Ei's speed point blank. Alive Madara is even faster. 

Alive Hashirama can at least fight Shippuden/War Arc Ei on equal terms in CQC. And Minato? Hashirama is fast enough to make Minato's face a bloody mess.



> Christ...



Yeah, christ... Thats all you can answer?

Hashirama is a lot faster than young Ei who fought Minato. Why? Because Hashirama is in the same speed class as Madara, who has speed feats. Young Ei has no speed feats at all. 



> Neither can 7th Gate gai and he'd crush Hashirama in this taijutsu/weapons battle.



And he'd crush base Minato as well. 



> Madara went Tyson on his ass and bit a chunk outta Hashi's arm. He's not a tank like the 3rd Raikage or his son.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I'm positive Hashirama is more durable than your average shinobi but not to a point where a kunai can't penetrate all the way through his flesh.
> 
> Ei felt Minato's kunai was a threat and moments later he thanked Bee for saving his hide.



It doesnt matter how durable Hashirama is. Edo Madara blocked prime V2 Ei's punch with his hands point blank. His mokuton clones were so fast they could tag prime V2 Ei. Ei blocked clones Susanoo punch instead of dodging it. Edo Madara dodged Gaara's sand. And, finally, alive Madara outpased SM Naruto and Sai and has clearly shown he is in another speed class. 

That means Madara shits on Minato's speed, because Madara is faster. Hashirama is in the same speed class as Madara. Plus, Hashirama is a sensory type shinobi. He'd wreck Minato in CQC.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Lol jesus christ.....hashiramas going to be the one gettin pressured to living hell by minatos shunshin lets leave ftg
> 
> 16
> 16
> ...



Lol this again.

A) you must not know what the viz translation says.... Tobirama never says your shunshin is faster then mine. He says your TELEPORTATION is BETTER then mine. Teleportation relates to FTG more then it relates to shunshin, AND he said better and not faster so.... Ill just wait for Hussain to post that here later today ..

B) Not only was Minato using FTG( tobirama Commented on it) but the other KAGE were only using traveling speed, evident by the fact that they ALL arrived at the same time. Are you gonna tell me they ALL are the same speed? Hiruzen, Hashirama and Tobirama are all the same speed ? The fuck lol? Actually, Minato was probably using shunshin + FTG while the other kage were only using movement speed. They COULDNT be using shunshin as they arrived at the same time and their shunshin speeds are all massively different. I mean there's countless examples of this. 1. Killer Bee and KCM Naruto arrive at the battlefield at the same time. Does that mean killer bees shunshin is = to Naruto's? 2. The entire Shinobi alliance arrives to the Juubi at the same time, does that the entire Shinobi has an equal shunshin? 3. Kakashi and sakura arrive at Naruto and Sasuke at the same time. Does that mean Kakashi = sakura in shushin? 4. Lee, Neji, and Tenten all arrive at any situation at the same time. Does that mean they all posses the same shunshin( or even movement speed considering Lee can't use shunshin? And all those situations are just like the one here. So the only thing you can assume here is that Minato's movement speed is > to the other kage. Or that his movement speed + FTG is > to the other Kages movement speed. You can't add shunshin in here as it's not clear if Minato used it or not , and it's 100% certain that the other kage didn't.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Lol this again.
> 
> A) you must not know what the viz translation says.... Tobirama never says your shunshin is faster then mine. He says your TELEPORTATION is BETTER then mine. Teleportation relates to FTG more then it relates to shunshin, AND he said better and not faster so.... Ill just wait for Hussain to post that here later today ..
> 
> B) Not only was Minato using FTG( tobirama Commented on it) but the other KAGE were only using traveling speed, evident by the fact that they ALL arrived at the same time. Are you gonna tell me they ALL are the same speed? Hiruzen, Hashirama and Tobirama are all the same speed ? The fuck lol? Actually, Minato was probably using shunshin + FTG while the other kage were only using movement speed. They COULDNT be using shunshin as they arrived at the same time and their shunshin speeds are all massively different. I mean there's countless examples of this. 1. Killer Bee and KCM Naruto arrive at the battlefield at the same time. Does that mean killer bees shunshin is = to Naruto's? 2. The entire Shinobi alliance arrives to the Juubi at the same time, does that the entire Shinobi has an equal shunshin? 3. Kakashi and sakura arrive at Naruto and Sasuke at the same time. Does that mean Kakashi = sakura in shushin? 4. Lee, Neji, and Tenten all arrive at any situation at the same time. Does that mean they all posses the same shunshin( or even movement speed considering Lee can't use shunshin? And all those situations are just like the one here. So the only thing you can assume here is that Minato's movement speed is > to the other kage. Or that his movement speed + FTG is > to the other Kages movement speed. You can't add shunshin in here as it's not clear if Minato used it or not , and it's 100% certain that the other kage didn't.



WTh are you talking abt lol minato had no markers on the battlefield how was he supposed to use ftg while the others shunshined.....he specifically mentioned shunshin ftg was never used there and neither did tobirama and are you proposing he threw kunai constantly for hundreds of miles and used ftg consequitively hundreds of times all of them shunshined to the battlefield and tobirama specifically compared his speed to minatos and said he paled in comparison..

Link removed


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> WTh are you talking abt lol minato had no markers on the battlefield how was he supposed to use ftg while the others shunshined.....he specifically mentioned shunshin ftg was never used there and neither did tobirama and are you proposing he threw kunai constantly for hundreds of miles and used ftg consequitively hundreds of times all of them shunshined to the battlefield and tobirama specifically compared his speed to minatos and said he paled in comparison..
> 
> [Sage Mode Naruto resulting to surprise Frog Kata because he cannot defeat him with conventional Senjutsu or Taijutsu]



Bruh just stop. What about you not having the viz translation don't you understand ? You are reading a false translation. The viz says " teleportation " not " shunshin." Therefore your entire argument is destroyed. So like I said, let us wait for Hussain to post the viz translation so you can see how wrong you are right now.

1) He used some type of FTG as Tobirama commented on it .
2) he easily could have thrown kunai and warped to them , as that's canonically shown to be faster then his shunshin or movement speed.
3) it doesn't matter what he did in this situation as the other kage didn't even use shunshin. That means he was already using a much faster form of transportation from the get go even if he DIDNT use FTG.
4) they didn't shunshin to the battlefield as they arrived at the same time . And we know that Hirzuen = Tobirama = Hashirama in terms of shunshin is massively false . & until you can prove that they all have equal Shunshins, then I'd advise you stop using that .


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Bruh just stop. What about you not having the viz translation don't you understand ? You are reading a false translation. The viz says " teleportation " not " shunshin." Therefore your entire argument is destroyed. So like I said, let us wait for Hussain to post the viz translation so you can see how wrong you are right now.
> 
> 1) He used some type of FTG as Tobirama commented on it .
> 2) he easily could have thrown kunai and warped to them , as that's canonically shown to be faster then his shunshin or movement speed.
> ...



Are you sure that Viz translation is the right one? Do you have a proof of that?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 29, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Naruto blocked.



 No, he was blitzed really badly and was blown away because of that. Sheer speed alone will allow Hashirama to phuck up Minato.


[Sage Mode Naruto resulting to surprise Frog Kata because he cannot defeat him with conventional Senjutsu or Taijutsu]




> To not be *turned into mush* by a Biju level pounding requires immense durability.



 You have no proof of that. He only credited hashirama's regeneration for surviving the attack as well as the fact that he stated he loses grace fighting with Hashirama's regen which means that was really the only notable boost he ever got. He stated that it's very "little" chakra and easy to handle and his reaction towards big boosts seems to imply this boost was rather small, so any other boost in stats that he did receive was very minimal at best.



> t's the sole contributor in keeping Madara's body intact so that he'd only have to regenerate from lacerations instead of a pile of unrecognizable mangled flesh.



 He's durable enough as it is. His arms didn't get torn off from blocking V2 Ei's attack.



> I fail to see your point in even bringing Sage Madara into the discussion you're aware he shits on base Hashirama in nearly every combat oriented category, don't you?



 But you haven't proven why. Sure he got a boost in every stat due to senjutsu, I won't deny that, but his reaction and what has been stated implies those boosts were very minimal.

 I don't know why you ignore the fact that Alive Madara who rivals Hashirama blitzed SM Naruto before receiving SM boost which was * very minimal * at best. 




> Senjutsu augmented regeneration doing its job *after* Madara gets his eye back says otherwise.



 [Sage Mode Naruto resulting to surprise Frog Kata because he cannot defeat him with conventional Senjutsu or Taijutsu]

 No it doesn't. He stated he loses grace when he fights with Hashirama's regeneration prior to using the Rinnegan. If it was due to the Rinnegan, he would've credited the regen towards the Rinnegan instead of towards Hashirama. Stop denying what's being stated.




> Obito summoned Kurama, mindraped him to do his faggy bidding and displayed kage-level reflexes. How in the bluest of blue fucks is he featless?



 Because nearly getting punched in by young, featless Ei isn't a Kage feat. You have yet to prove how Obito displayed Kage level feats. He was phuckin injured by a measly Rasengan. Summoning and controlling Kurama means he has high level genjutsu. That's it. 




> Btw, Minato spanked Obito with the odds against him.



 He had FTG level 2 and Obito's proficiency with Kamui was shit as he never even attempted to absorb Minato which would've phucked him up.




> Furthermore, he casually reacted to Ei once he got a general idea on how fast the fucker was.  Ei would make Hashirama(ITT) his bitch in a close quarters brawl -- something that would be as clear as day if you weren't busy savoring the taste of Hashirama's spunk.



 A young featless Ei would destroy someone who can blitz SM Naruto, the latter being able to dodge 3rd Raikage who has shown better speed feats than 4th Raikage? Okay.

 Minato had prep in that situation considering Ei didn't even activate his Raiton armor until after the Kunai were thrown which was the only reason he didn't get his head knocked off. You think he'd have that opportunity against Hashirama's Sheer speed that can blitz a ninja much stronger and more reflexive than him?




> Having your head severed from your body isn't exactly what I would call a "small slash".





Kyu said:


> For the * cut * to heal before Minato can finish his swing it would need to be nigh instantaneous regeneration.


 
 So severing someone's head is a small cut?



> Christ...



 So you're speechless because I countered your argument.



> Neither can 7th Gate gai and he'd crush Hashirama in this taijutsu/weapons battle.



 But Hashirama isn't on 7th Gate Gai's speed tier, so you've got nothing there. SM Naruto can literally handle 50% Kurama. 7th Gate Gai is far far far above that and will easily outpace 100% Kurama. The only reason he won't win is only due to lack of sheer power that can bring it down or succumbing to the effects of Gate.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Bruh just stop. What about you not having the viz translation don't you understand ? You are reading a false translation. The viz says " teleportation " not " shunshin." Therefore your entire argument is destroyed. So like I said, let us wait for Hussain to post the viz translation so you can see how wrong you are right now.
> 
> 1) He used some type of FTG as Tobirama commented on it .
> 2) he easily could have thrown kunai and warped to them , as that's canonically shown to be faster then his shunshin or movement speed.
> ...



what special kind of ftg is this that does not require markers can tou please elaborate

Do you have any idea how ridiculous ur argument is you are saying he threw thousands of kunai and used ftg thousands of time consequitively to reach the battlefield....

the kages used shunshin because they were desperate to reach the battlefield and shunshin is high speed movement why would only minato use shunsin and not the kages


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Are you sure that Viz translation is the right one? Do you have a proof of that?



Viz translation is the best. It's the most accurate translation . Everyone knows that .


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> what special kind of ftg is this that does not require markers can tou please elaborate
> 
> Do you have any idea how ridiculous ur argument is you are saying he threw thousands of kunai and used ftg thousands of time consequitively to reach the battlefield....
> 
> the kages used shunshin because they were desperate to reach the battlefield and shunshin is high speed movement why would only minato use shunsin and not the kages



Who said anything about marker less FTG? 

I'm not gonna sit here and walk you through why throwing kunai and warping to them is faster then his shunshin . So I'll make this easier by saying Minato only used shunshin , but the fact that the other kage didn't negates your point . How do I know they didn't use shunshin ? They arrived at the same time despite possessing drastically different shunshin . It doesn't matter how "desperate" they were to arrive at the battlefield , they only used movement speed and this happens ALL the time . Naruto was desperate to arrive at the battlefield yet arrived at the same time as bee? The Shinobi are the reason Naruto, Bee, Gai, and Kakashi are alive, it's clear they were desperate to get to the battle field yet still didn't use shunshin as they all would have arrived at far different times . Gai and Kakashi to Naruto and bee  . Should I go on ?


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Who said anything about marker less FTG?
> 
> I'm not gonna sit here and walk you through why throwing kunai and warping to them is faster then his shunshin . So I'll make this easier by saying Minato only used shunshin , but the fact that the other kage didn't negates your point . How do I know they didn't use shunshin ? They arrived at the same time despite possessing drastically different shunshin . It doesn't matter how "desperate" they were to arrive at the battlefield , they only used movement speed and this happens ALL the time . Naruto was desperate to arrive at the battlefield yet arrived at the same time as bee? The Shinobi are the reason Naruto, Bee, Gai, and Kakashi are alive, it's clear they were desperate to get to the battle field yet still didn't use shunshin as they all would have arrived at far different times . Gai and Kakashi to Naruto and bee  . Should I go on ?



Sure man whatever you say


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Sure man whatever you say



Concession accepted. But just wait for the viz translation so you can see yourself.


----------



## SSMG (Jan 29, 2015)

About the minato speed debate.. Couldn't minato have teleported right to naruto? Since minato put his chakra into the seal on narutos  stomach and he can teleport to anything minatos chakra is in contact with?


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Viz translation is the best. It's the most accurate translation . Everyone knows that .



Just as i expected - no proof.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 29, 2015)

You should restrict Hashirama's regeneration. You're kidding yourself if you think Hashirama isn't as skilled as Bee was in being able to counter Minato physically after seeing living Madara.

(And flashbacks of them clashing equally.)​


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Just as i expected - no proof.



Are you kidding me right now ? You don't think the version that they sell to the public isn't going to be more accurate them random ass websites. The same people who make the viz editions make the databooks. Common sense would mean Viz> random ass website translations. That's all the proof I need.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Are you kidding me right now ? You don't think the version that they sell to the public isn't going to be more accurate them random ass websites. The same people who make the viz editions make the databooks. Common sense would mean Viz> random ass website translations. That's all the proof I need.



Common sense would mean that, first of all, its all about the money, not about the translation to be super-duper accurate. So yeah - even Viz's translation can be wrong.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Common sense would mean that, first of all, its all about the money, not about the translation to be super-duper accurate. So yeah - even Viz's translation can be wrong.



They would lose money based on complaints of shitty translations. I'm pretty sure you know how this works. The prep required to ready an item to be sold to the public ensures that there are close to 0 mistranslations. Which is alot smaller then the amount of mistranslations on any website you can name . A websites translation isn't going to be better then a translation you have to actually purchase. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time here .


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> They would lose money based on complaints of shitty translations. I'm pretty sure you know how this works. The prep required to ready an item to be sold to the public ensures that there are close to 0 mistranslations. Which is alot smaller then the amount of mistranslations on any website you can name . A websites translation isn't going to be better then a translation you have to actually purchase. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time here .



Yeah, and there are lots of people who'd know that's a mistranslation. There are lots of people in Europe, south/north America who can speak Japanese to check if the translation is 100% right. Lots of them. Can you tell that its a mistranslation? No you cant, because you dont speak japanese to check if its a mistranslation or not. There can be some few mistranslations there, people will buy it anyway. Databook makers, for example, can make few mistakes, but they want money, so they can sell a Databook with few mistakes. Very little number of people will see it anyway, and people will buy it.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Yeah, and there are lots of people who'd know that's a mistranslation. There are lots of people in Europe, south/north America who can speak Japanese to check if the translation is 100% right. Lots of them. Can you tell that its a mistranslation? No you cant, because you dont speak japanese to check if its a mistranslation or not. There can be some few mistranslations there, people will buy it anyway. Databook makers, for example, can make few mistakes, but they want money, so they can sell a Databook with few mistakes. Very little number of people will see it anyway, and people will buy it.



That's the problem though . I never once stated that the Viz translation is 100% did I ? No I merely said that they have less translations then websites and that's factual at this point. Websites are going to have a lot more errors then a the viz and that's the point here . When it comes to a specific comment like this one then viz> website considering they make less mistakes then the website. The website is going to make more mistakes cause they don't money off of selling said product. The viz translators that make money off of translating will make less mistakes then those who just simply translate with no profit. If you want to make a thread about viz being more correct then websites then I'll make that shit rn.


----------



## Kyu (Jan 29, 2015)

> Alive Hashirama can at least fight Shippuden/War Arc Ei on equal terms in CQC.



Put Ei in Minato's position here? Hashirama gets beaten worse than an unruly 1950s housewife. 





> And Minato? Hashirama is fast enough to make Minato's face a bloody mess.



When a kage notorious for his speed could never best the Yellow Flash? Sounds legit.




> Yeah, christ... Thats all you can answer?



If "Hashirama is faster than Ei" is what I see on my screen when I'm dead tired and don't feel like addressing such a foolish statement after a long day at work...then yes. 



> Hashirama is a lot faster than young Ei who fought Minato. Why? Because Hashirama is in the same speed class as Madara, who has speed feats. Young Ei has no speed feats at all.




Surprised Minato with his Maximum RnY's speed. There's a feat.




> And he'd crush base Minato as well.



I suggest you read our discussion before putting your irrelevant two cents in.



> It doesnt matter how durable Hashirama is. Edo Madara blocked prime V2 Ei's punch with his hands point blank. His mokuton clones were so fast they could tag prime V2 Ei. Ei blocked clones Susanoo punch instead of dodging it.



...In an artificial mokuton body created by Kabuto.



> Edo Madara dodged Gaara's sand. And, finally, alive Madara outpased SM Naruto and Sai and has clearly shown he is in another speed class.
> That means Madara shits on Minato's speed, because Madara is faster. Hashirama is in the same speed class as Madara.



Minato is faster than all of those shinobi, so no. 



> Plus, Hashirama is a sensory type shinobi.


So is his opponent
.


> He'd wreck Minato in CQC.



Nah, Minato can handle himself.



NarutoX28 said:


> No, he was blitzed really badly and was blown away because of that. Sheer speed alone will allow Hashirama to phuck up Minato.
> 
> 
> [Sage Mode Naruto resulting to surprise Frog Kata because he cannot defeat him with conventional Senjutsu or Taijutsu]



The boy clearly put his arms before he hit the ground.




> He's durable enough as it is. His arms didn't get torn off from blocking V2 Ei's attack.





Again....not his real body.



> But you haven't proven why. Sure he got a boost in every stat due to senjutsu, I won't deny that, but his reaction and what has been stated implies those boosts were very minimal.



Base Naruto went from barely being able to fend off Deva path to reacting to the 3rd Raikage's _Hell Stab_ in Sage Mode. "Minimal" my ass.



> I don't know why you ignore the fact that Alive Madara who rivals Hashirama blitzed SM Naruto before receiving SM boost which was * very minimal * at best.



He blitzed Naruto with Hashi's DNA flowing within his veins which in all probability gave him the physical strength needed to knock Sage Naruto down. He was equal to Hashirama prior to stealing this power. 




> No it doesn't. He stated he loses grace when he fights with Hashirama's regeneration prior to using the Rinnegan. If it was due to the Rinnegan, he would've credited the regen towards the Rinnegan instead of towards Hashirama. Stop denying what's being stated.



I acknowledge regeneration is what ultimately helps him recover from the injuries. It's you lot who disregard Sage durability as if Madara wouldn't be in worse shape without the durability increase Sage Mode grants.




> You have yet to prove how Obito displayed Kage level feats. He was phuckin injured by a measly Rasengan.



Murdering Hiruzen's personal ANBU without being detected by a renowned sensory type shinobi, grazing the Yondaime Hokage with your weapon. - those are "kage level feats".



> Summoning and controlling Kurama means he has high level genjutsu.



So...he isn't featless.




> A young featless Ei would destroy someone who can blitz SM Naruto, the latter being able to dodge 3rd Raikage who has shown better speed feats than 4th Raikage? Okay.



What's with this notion that Ei is head n shoulders faster than he was in his youth? If there is a difference between the two it's by a negligible margin at best - Ei as Raikage felt his top speed as a whole couldn't match up to Minato's reaction speed.



> So severing someone's head is a small cut?



I said cut, not "small cut".



> *cut*
> kət
> verb
> 
> ...



Nice try.



> So you're speechless because I countered your argument.



More like baffled someone actually believes Hashirama is faster than Ei - when the former God of Shinobi can't beat Minato to the battlefield.



> You should restrict Hashirama's regeneration. You're kidding yourself if you think Hashirama isn't as skilled as Bee was in being able to counter Minato physically after seeing living Madara.
> 
> (And flashbacks of them clashing equally.)



Which is why I expect this fight to be back n' forth for a little while.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 29, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Put Ei in Minato's position here? Hashirama gets beaten worse than an unruly 1950s housewife.



 No evidence to support that.





> When a kage notorious for his speed could never best the Yellow Flash? Sounds legit.



 True, but considering even little Bee can defeat ninja that deemed him as part of a powerful duo doesn't really mean much. It's basically all just hype. 





> If "Hashirama is faster than Ei" is what I see on my screen when I'm dead tired and don't feel like addressing such a foolish statement after a long day at work...then yes.



 You're right. It's also a foolish statement to say that Alive Madara is  much faster than SM Naruto and that SM Naruto has the speed and reflexes to dodge the 3rd Raikage who's a lot faster than Ei. Oh wait.




> Surprised Minato with his Maximum RnY's speed. There's a feat.



 But you just said that Minato was able to smack Ei around?

 You're contradicting yourself.




> I suggest you read our discussion before putting your irrelevant two cents in.



 Same as you.




> ...In an artificial mokuton body created by Kabuto.



 What're you talking about?




> Minato is faster than all of those shinobi, so no.



 With Hiraishin. Reaction speed is more important which Hashirama has, along with his speed which will just blitz Minato in general. SM Naruto couldn't even react to Madara's speed. SM Naruto has far better reactions than Minato. See where I'm going with this?




> So is his opponent



 A terrible one at that.
.




> Nah, Minato can handle himself.



 He can't handle himself in CQC against Young, featless Obito.




> The boy clearly put his arms before he hit the ground.



 Same as Sai? What's your point. That doesn't mean he blocked it. That's just a natural reaction to being blown away.





> Again....not his real body.



 Edo Tenseis more durable based on what?




> Base Naruto went from barely being able to fend off Deva path to reacting to the 3rd Raikage's _Hell Stab_ in Sage Mode. "Minimal" my ass.



 Madara's statement does imply it's minimal whether you like it or not.

 For Naruto, it's implied it's massive.




> He blitzed Naruto with Hashi's DNA flowing within his veins which in all probability gave him the physical strength needed to knock Sage Naruto down. He was equal to Hashirama prior to stealing this power.


 
 No it didn't and you have nothing to base that on. That's like saying Danzo's physical strength was boosted due to having Hashirama's cells, same as Yamato which is never at all implied. 




> I acknowledge regeneration is what ultimately helps him recover from the injuries. It's you lot who disregard Sage durability as if Madara wouldn't be in worse shape without the durability increase Sage Mode grants.



 Because Madara himself only commented on Hashirama's regen hence the "lost grace" comment. Madara of all people always boasts about any huge boost he gets. However, he never did that with SM which implies the stats that were boosted were * minimal *. Only his regen was worth noting. Like I said before, his weaker body was able to block V2 Ei's punch.




> Murdering Hiruzen's personal ANBU without being detected by a renowned sensory type shinobi, grazing the Yondaime Hokage with your weapon. - those are "kage level feats".



 Murdering Hirzuen's personal ANBU isn't a Kage-level feat. Minato's more concerned about how he broke through the barrier than beating a bunch of featless Anbu. Breaking a barrier is considered a kage-level feat, but that has nothing to do with fighting capabilities, so I'm afraid Minato having no concern of Obito beating a bunch of Anbu means it isn't a Kage-level feat.

 Him grazing Base Minato would just show that Minato himself is weak, but even then, Minato clearly lacked knowledge on Obito's Kamui which left him vulnerable. 

 So overall, not a good example.




> So...he isn't featless.



 Featless in terms of actual fighting capabilities, yes.




> What's with this notion that Ei is head n shoulders faster than he was in his youth? If there is a difference between the two it's by a negligible margin at best - Ei as Raikage felt his top speed as a whole couldn't match up to Minato's reaction speed.



 I'm assuming you think Young Bee is as strong as he was in his prime. It's been 17 years at least since Minato fought young, featless Ei. You seriously can't be implying that Ei barely got any faster than he is now. That's ridiculous and you should feel bad.




> Nice try.



 Mmmkay I concede. 




> More like baffled someone actually believes Hashirama is faster than Ei - when the former God of Shinobi can't beat Minato to the battlefield.



 He also got beat by Hiruzen. You seriously can't use that as evidence. There's also the fact that ET Hashi's feats don't compare to Alive Hashirmama's feats, so there's that.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

> Put Ei in Minato's position here? Hashirama gets beaten worse than an unruly 1950s housewife.



No, because he is in Madara's speed and strength class, who blocked V2 Ei's punch point blank, while being in the air.



> When a kage notorious for his speed could never best the Yellow Flash? Sounds legit.



Sounds legit, because Hashirama, feats wise (equal to Madara in speed = great feat), is above Minato. Yellow Flash will become Bloody Flash. 



> If "Hashirama is faster than Ei" is what I see on my screen when I'm dead tired and don't feel like addressing such a foolish statement after a long day at work...then yes.



Its not a foolish statement. Young Ei, a character without any speed feats, is <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Hashirama in terms of speed.



> Surprised Minato with his Maximum RnY's speed. There's a feat.



Against base Minato, who is featless by himself? Such a "feat", yeah.



> ...In an artificial mokuton body created by Kabuto.



Edo body, not mokuton body, with Hashi's cells in its chest. And before you'll write fantasy about Kabuto amping Madara - his speed was not amped. At all.



> Minato is faster than all of those shinobi, so no.



Maybe, but Madara's those Madara's performances are still great. I doubt Minato would do just as fine as Madara against SM Naruto, for example.



> Nah, Minato can handle himself.



But he will lose against Hashirama in CQC.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> That's the problem though . I never once stated that the Viz translation is 100% did I ? No I merely said that they have less translations then websites and that's factual at this point. Websites are going to have a lot more errors then a the viz and that's the point here . When it comes to a specific comment like this one then viz> website considering they make less mistakes then the website. The website is going to make more mistakes cause they don't money off of selling said product. The viz translators that make money off of translating will make less mistakes then those who just simply translate with no profit. If you want to make a thread about viz being more correct then websites then I'll make that shit rn.



Cant we trust more to those website translations because they do it for free and because of love for Naruto series?


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Cant we trust more to those website translations because they do it for free and because of love for Naruto series?




And why can't the large corporations love Naruto enough to translate them as best as they can ? You assume just because it's a big company, they only want money and say " fuck Naruto ." I think I'm going to put more faith in payed official translators who translate for a living rather then random internet translators .


----------



## Euraj (Jan 29, 2015)

This shit is still going?



NarutoX28 said:


> You're right. It's also a foolish statement to say that Alive Madara is  much faster than SM Naruto and that SM Naruto has the speed and reflexes to dodge the 3rd Raikage who's a lot faster than Ei. Oh wait.


Then again, A3 attacked Naruto linearly and Naruto was expecting the attack and expecting to dodge it and counter-attack. Given the "!" above Naruto's head, he wasn't expecting the attack from Madara, but notwithstanding, still reacted to it, though he quite obviously was overwhelmed strength-wise. He would have been overwhelmed strength wise if he tried to block A3 as well. 






> With Hiraishin. Reaction speed is more important which Hashirama has, along with his speed which will just blitz Minato in general. SM Naruto couldn't even react to Madara's speed. SM Naruto has far better reactions than Minato. See where I'm going with this?


You don't blitz with reaction speed. Blitzing is done by unanticipated movement. The person with the slowest reactions in the story can blitz someone if they move first with a very quick Shunshin and a frontal attack. Refer back to Minato telling Kakashi not to use Chidori in spite of him being very fast. 






> He can't handle himself in CQC against Young, featless Obito.


Implied by Obito complimenting his speed and getting a Rasengan in his spine at close quarters. 






> Same as Sai? What's your point. That doesn't mean he blocked it. That's just a natural reaction to being blown away.


It kinda means Naruto reacted to the charge, but didn't have the traction to save himself from being knocked over. 







> Madara's statement does imply it's minimal whether you like it or not.


Which explains why he went out of his way to get it. 



> For Naruto, it's implied it's massive.


Which implies that it's massive for everyone else. Hashirama went from Mokujin to Shinsusenju. Kabuto went from target practice to side-stepping Susanoo's arrows. But for Madara, because it's convenient to your argument, he got essentially nothing from it. 






> No it didn't and you have nothing to base that on. That's like saying Danzo's physical strength was boosted due to having Hashirama's cells, same as Yamato which is never at all implied.


Actually, it is implied. Unless Orochimaru being able to bring the brothers closer to their full strength had to do with something else. 






> Because Madara himself only commented on Hashirama's regen hence the "lost grace" comment. Madara of all people always boasts about any huge boost he gets. However, he never did that with SM which implies the stats that were boosted were * minimal *. Only his regen was worth noting. Like I said before, his weaker body was able to block V2 Ei's punch.


I'm sorry, your anecdotal evidence isn't an argument. Read it back to yourself. 

"Madara _always_ comments on strength boosts therefore Sage Mode didn't make him much stronger."

If you can seriously read that bull shit and not see it sounds completely retarded, then I don't know what to tell you. 





> Murdering Hirzuen's personal ANBU isn't a Kage-level feat. Minato's more concerned about how he broke through the barrier than beating a bunch of featless Anbu. Breaking a barrier is considered a kage-level feat, but that has nothing to do with fighting capabilities, so I'm afraid Minato having no concern of Obito beating a bunch of Anbu means it isn't a Kage-level feat.
> 
> Him grazing Base Minato would just show that Minato himself is weak, but even then, Minato clearly lacked knowledge on Obito's Kamui which left him vulnerable.
> 
> So overall, not a good example.


How the hell is someone beating someone else by fighting not have to do with fighting capabilities? If Obito was a punk ass fighter, the ANBU would have dusted him up and told Minato later about the cockroaches wandering around. And no, considering Minato has already been established as a high-level fighter, a new fighter hurting him doesn't bring him down. It rises the credibility of the new fighter. 








> I'm assuming you think Young Bee is as strong as he was in his prime. It's been 17 years at least since Minato fought young, featless Ei. You seriously can't be implying that Ei barely got any faster than he is now. That's ridiculous and you should feel bad.


Actually, it wouldn't be that bad of an assumption. A human's physical prime is typically not past their forties. It's late twenties to mid thirties. Add on top of that the fact that a man out in the field is probably going to get more on the job training than a man in an office. 

Add on top of the fact that he actually gave a fuck about Minato dodging his punch when he was speaking to Naruto, which wouldn't make sense if he had become leagues faster over the years. 





> He also got beat by Hiruzen. You seriously can't use that as evidence. There's also the fact that ET Hashi's feats don't compare to Alive Hashirmama's feats, so there's that.


Actually, Hiruzen, Tobirama, and Hashirama got there at the same time, with it seeming like Tobirama was regaining his stature first. That kind of implies the first three Hokage are all around the same proficiency with Shunshin, Tobirama being a little better, and the Fourth in a league of his own. I don't know why this is an argument. Tobirama, said to be the fastest of his time, said flat out that Minato's Shunshin was better than his.

Hashirama probably is a little quicker alive than as an Edo. But then again, Minato is probably quicker alive than as an Edo as well.This is a flabbergastingly retarded debate. Nothing implies Hashirama can react to an Hiraishin attack. Granted, Minato might have to hit him more than once, but taking away Mokuton and pitting him against another Hokage is ludicrous.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 29, 2015)

base hashiramas speed and reactions are equal to madara. madara possesses the same choku tomoe as sasuke who traced ten tail obitos movements. obito took off minatos arm before he could even react.

hashirama clowns him in cqc.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

Euraj said:


> This shit is still going?
> 
> Then again, A3 attacked Naruto linearly and Naruto was expecting the attack and expecting to dodge it and counter-attack. Given the "!" above Naruto's head, he wasn't expecting the attack from Madara, but notwithstanding, still reacted to it, though he quite obviously was overwhelmed strength-wise. He would have been overwhelmed strength wise if he tried to block A3 as well.
> 
> ...



In case with shinobi, physical prime can be in their 40's. Anyway, young Ei doesnt have feats at all. Thats why Shippuden/War Arc Ei would have clowned his younger self effortlessly. 

Hashirama knows about Hiraishin and he is definetely fast enough to react to Minato and beat him. Hashirama will make Minato's face a bloody mess.



> base hashiramas speed and reactions are equal to madara. madara possesses the same choku tomoe as sasuke who traced ten tail obitos movements. obito took off minatos arm before he could even react.
> 
> hashirama clowns him in cqc.



Sasuke havent traced Juubito's movements. Juubito was much faster and would have blitzed Sasuke if KCM Minato didnt save him. 

But Hashirama will dominate Minato in CQC anyway.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 29, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Sasuke havent traced Juubito's movements. Juubito was much faster and would have blitzed Sasuke if KCM Minato didnt save him.
> 
> But Hashirama will dominate Minato in CQC anyway.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


>



Juubito dodged everything and blocked their last attack to put them to sleep.


----------



## Bonly (Jan 29, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Juubito dodged everything and blocked their last attack to put them to sleep.



That doesn't change the fact that Sasuke started to track him, upon which you said "Sasuke havent traced Juubito's movements" so you're wrong on that front


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 30, 2015)

Bonly said:


> That doesn't change the fact that Sasuke started to track him, upon which you said "Sasuke havent traced Juubito's movements" so you're wrong on that front



The fact? How do you know he started to track him when Juubito dodged their atacks and blocked their strike to put them to sleep?


----------



## Bonly (Jan 30, 2015)

The scan literally shows EMS Sasuke started to track Obito along with BSM Naruto. Are you fucking with me or are you being legit here?


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 30, 2015)

Bonly said:


> The scan literally shows EMS Sasuke started to track Obito along with BSM Naruto. Are you fucking with me or are you being legit here?



Ok, i admit he tracked his movement. For few moments. Later, Juubito blocked his attack and grabbed him to put him to sleep, as i remember.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 30, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> base hashiramas speed and reactions are equal to madara. madara possesses the same choku tomoe as sasuke who traced ten tail obitos movements. obito took off minatos arm before he could even react.
> 
> hashirama clowns him in cqc.



sm hashis speed and reactions are near madaras but madara having a slight edge in cqc with edo madara pumping sm hashi full of rods while hashi had to use ninjutsu mokuton to subdue him.....stop giving madara sasukes feats ems sasuke was able to draw blood from sm madara in a cqc exchange....hashi was never stated or hyped to be a speedster or a cqc fighter his mokuton made him what he is


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 30, 2015)

Euraj said:


> This shit is still going?
> 
> Then again, A3 attacked Naruto linearly and Naruto was expecting the attack and expecting to dodge it and counter-attack. Given the "!" above Naruto's head, he wasn't expecting the attack from Madara, but notwithstanding, still reacted to it, though he quite obviously was overwhelmed strength-wise. He would have been overwhelmed strength wise if he tried to block A3 as well.
> 
> ...



Thankyou for being a voice of reason here...the minato hate has gotten crazy lol


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 30, 2015)

Euraj said:


> This shit is still going?
> 
> Then again, A3 attacked Naruto linearly and Naruto was expecting the attack and expecting to dodge it and counter-attack. Given the "!" above Naruto's head, he wasn't expecting the attack from Madara, but notwithstanding, still reacted to it, though he quite obviously was overwhelmed strength-wise. He would have been overwhelmed strength wise if he tried to block A3 as well.



 Or he wasn't expecting Madara to be able to blitz him so easily or at least have that level of speed. 

 But SM Naruto never blocked the hit or you'd have to believe Sai blocked it as well.






> You don't blitz with reaction speed. Blitzing is done by unanticipated movement. The person with the slowest reactions in the story can blitz someone if they move first with a very quick Shunshin and a frontal attack. Refer back to Minato telling Kakashi not to use Chidori in spite of him being very fast.



 Never said that.






> Implied by Obito complimenting his speed and getting a Rasengan in his spine at close quarters.



 Doesn't mean much. He's still featless. He only beat a bunch of Anbu due to Kamui.






> It kinda means Naruto reacted to the charge, but didn't have the traction to save himself from being knocked over.



 Or he moved his arms forward b/c it was a natural reaction. Even then, that blitz was really bad. Even Hebi Sasuke's shunshin used against Deidara wasn't even shown to be as bad as this and it was established that Sasuke was faster than Deidara.





> Which explains why he went out of his way to get it.
> 
> Which implies that it's massive for everyone else. Hashirama went from Mokujin to Shinsusenju. Kabuto went from target practice to side-stepping Susanoo's arrows. But for Madara, because it's convenient to your argument, he got essentially nothing from it.



 Except he outright stated it's very little chakra.





> Actually, it is implied. Unless Orochimaru being able to bring the brothers closer to their full strength had to do with something else.



 Scan please. Hashi's cells did not increase Madara's level of strength. All it did was allow Madara to use the Rinnegan which was what Kabuto referred to when he said Madara's body was enhanced.





> I'm sorry, your anecdotal evidence isn't an argument. Read it back to yourself.
> 
> "Madara _always_ comments on strength boosts therefore Sage Mode didn't make him much stronger."
> 
> If you can seriously read that bull shit and not see it sounds completely retarded, then I don't know what to tell you.



 Since when did the author's portrayal of a character suddenly become irrelevent? I outright countered your argument with how the character acts as well as direct examples and you're telling me I'm talking bullshit? Now I know you're trolling.





> How the hell is someone beating someone else by fighting not have to do with fighting capabilities? If Obito was a punk ass fighter, the ANBU would have dusted him up and told Minato later about the cockroaches wandering around. And no, considering Minato has already been established as a high-level fighter, a new fighter hurting him doesn't bring him down. It rises the credibility of the new fighter.



 Because Obito has Kamui which most ninja don't have a counter for. The only counter is either having speed that rivals instantaneous teleportation or other space time ninjutsu which the ANBU do not have. 

 Even then, Minato only commenting on Obito breaking the barrier implies that beating the featless ANBU is not that good of a feat. Minato was only impressed by Obito's methods of breaking the barrier along with his usage of spacetime ninjutsu, that's it. Nothing about speed and reflexes at all. His Kamui is what tipped Minato over, not Obito's speed and reflexes which are decent at best.






> Actually, it wouldn't be that bad of an assumption. A human's physical prime is typically not past their forties. It's late twenties to mid thirties. Add on top of that the fact that a man out in the field is probably going to get more on the job training than a man in an office.



 Yet Tsunade continuously is shown to keep getting stronger as well as the fact that 4th Raikage's chakra levels at max rival that of a tailed beast which Minato never commented on on a young, featless Ei which implies his chakra levels aren't as high as they are now. He certainly got stronger. Young Ei has nothing that puts him at his Shippuden level. His only feats are beating a bunch of fodder ninja who even little Bee can beat, that's it.



> Add on top of the fact that he actually gave a fuck about Minato dodging his punch when he was speaking to Naruto, which wouldn't make sense if he had become leagues faster over the years.



 That's not surprising considering Instantaneous Teleportation will always surpass Ei's level of speed.





> Actually, Hiruzen, Tobirama, and Hashirama got there at the same time, with it seeming like Tobirama was regaining his stature first. That kind of implies the first three Hokage are all around the same proficiency with Shunshin, Tobirama being a little better, and the Fourth in a league of his own. I don't know why this is an argument. Tobirama, said to be the fastest of his time, said flat out that Minato's Shunshin was better than his.



 Tobirama being the fastest of his time is obviously due to FTG.

 Hashirama's shunshin being as fast as Hiruzen's and Tobirama's? Goes against whatever is implied. Sorry, but Hiruzen and Tobirama aren't within Hashirama's speed tier even when Hashirama's an Edo Tensei. Hashirama was flat out shown to be superior 



> Hashirama probably is a little quicker alive than as an Edo. But then again, Minato is probably quicker alive than as an Edo as well.This is a flabbergastingly retarded debate. Nothing implies Hashirama can react to an Hiraishin attack. Granted, Minato might have to hit him more than once, but taking away Mokuton and pitting him against another Hokage is ludicrous.



 If you seriously believe ET Hashirama is as fast as Hirurzen and Tobirama, then he'd have to be a lot faster since he is on Madara's speed tier. 

 And yes, SM Madara did it twice and it was outright stated that it was a * minimal boost *.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 30, 2015)

in all honesty, in the past 8 years I haven't seen this much s- about speed in one place. 



> About shunshin, Minato still has some of the best feats in the manga; [1][2][3][4][5][6]. Crossing Konoha in no time, stopping Kakashi before he could even move his hand, and separating the Kunai before the Hokages even arrive. On the other hand, Tobirama has none, but rather, he was shown to be actually slower than Hiruzen [1] who's a 3 out 5 in terms of speed.
> 
> Either way, Kishi focused on Minato's speed a lot showing him surpassing those with the greatest speed in a lot of cases. Like he did with Obito's Kamui [1], A's top speed [2], Tobirama's speed, [3], Kakashi's Kamui's speed [4], and 8th Gate Gai's speed [5].



Hashirama has never been hailed for speed. NEVER. 
and some of the hypercity is outstanding! So, young A is not as fast as his old self (Even though anyone who has a brain can comprehend that he stated only Naruto and Minato outclassed his top speed) But alive madara, is the same as his older self that has been modified with Hashirama's power in top of his own? Go figure.  

If Hashirama was that fast, kishi would have taken the time to AT LEAST mention such a thing, but he never did.
And now people think he is faster than the fastest character in the manga. 

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein 

If only you knew how right you are. 

Edit:


just for the lulz.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 30, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hashirama's shunshin being as fast as Hiruzen's and Tobirama's? Goes against whatever is implied. Sorry, but Hiruzen and Tobirama aren't within Hashirama's speed tier even when Hashirama's an Edo Tensei. Hashirama was* flat out **shown to be superior *



The Hashirama wank is unreal.  

5

yeah, that sure flat out shown to be superior.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 30, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Or he wasn't expecting Madara to be able to blitz him so easily or at least have that level of speed.
> 
> But SM Naruto never blocked the hit or you'd have to believe Sai blocked it as well.
> 
> ...



Why in gods name are you assuming hashirama is in another speed tier then tobirama???? tobirama was the one with the speed hype the one fastest of his time is a speedster and suddenly hashirama is in another class wth are u basing this on???!


----------



## Trojan (Jan 30, 2015)

And for regenerating. 
5
5

5




sabre320 said:


> Why in gods name are you assuming hashirama is in another speed tier then tobirama???? tobirama was the one with the speed hype the one fastest of his time is a speedster and suddenly hashirama is in another class wth are u basing this on???!



Because Madara reacted to Tobirama. And we all know that Madara and Hashirama are in fact the same person. 
how can you possibly not get that? 

btw, can we saw Madara was actually featless when he fought himself (Hashirama)? 
I mean he did not have any feats before battling Hashirama, no? 

just like Obito, and A. 

I will try using it.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 30, 2015)

> Hashirama has never been hailed for speed. NEVER.
> and some of the hypercity is outstanding! So, young A is not as fast as his old self (Even though anyone who has a brain can comprehend that he stated only Naruto and Minato outclassed his top speed) But alive madara, is the same as his older self that has been modified with Hashirama's power in top of his own? Go figure.
> 
> If Hashirama was that fast, kishi would have taken the time to AT LEAST mention such a thing, but he never did.
> ...



Kaguya has never been hailed for speed. Is she slower than Minato?

Can you prove Ei was the same after 17 years?

Can you prove Madara's speed was amped?

No you cant. Because Ei wasnt the same as 17 years ago. Because Madara's speed wasnt amped. 

If Hashirama wasnt fast, he would never react to Madara, whom Kishimoto himself made super-duper fast, with speed enough to block V2 Ei's punch, dodge Gaara's sand, block BM Naruto's clone attack with a Gunbai and outpase SM Naruto effortlessly. Also, even his mokuton clones were fast enough to tag prime V2 Ei. Its a manga fact both Hashirama and Madara are fast. Kishimoto made them super fast. 

Do you know what is stupid? Its stupid to say, or write, that Minato is the fastest character in Manga. Because Kishimoto never said, or wrote such a thing. Because there is no such a thing in any Databook there is. Because Minato has no feats to suggest such a thing. And, hell, The fastest? You mean, faster than *ANYONE* in the manga? You cant be taken serious after that.



> The Hashirama wank is unreal.
> 
> 5
> 
> yeah, that sure flat out shown to be superior.



1. Hashirama has better reflexes and combat speed than Minato. Shunshin is a travel speed technique. Minato has never shown the ability to increase his attacking speed with a Shunshin. In fact, no one did.

2. I highly doubt Hashirama was moving as fast as he can in that instance. 



> btw, can we saw Madara was actually featless when he fought himself (Hashirama)?
> I mean he did not have any feats before battling Hashirama, no?
> 
> just like Obito, and A.



Kabuto restored Madara's youth when he reanimated him. The same youth during which Hashirama fought him. And, with his youth, he has shown super speed. And Hashirama reacted to him.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 30, 2015)

Just for test. 


> [=NarutoX28;52787198]
> You're right. It's also a foolish statement to say that Alive Madara is  much faster than SM Naruto and that SM Naruto has the speed and reflexes to dodge the *3rd Raikage who's a lot faster than Ei*. Oh wait.


A is faster than his father, anyone actually watch the manga knows that. 



> But you just said that Minato was able to smack Ei around?
> 
> You're contradicting yourself.







> With Hiraishin. Reaction speed is more important which Hashirama has, along with his speed which will just blitz Minato in general.


Proof that Hashirama has such thing. 


> SM Naruto couldn't even react to Madara's speed. SM Naruto has far better reactions than Minato. See where I'm going with this?


lol, who said SM Naruto has better reaction than Minato? 
And by the way, Madara fodderstompped Hashirama when he returned to life. 





> He can't handle himself in CQC against Young, featless Obito.


I do not know what manga are you watching.  




> Same as Sai? What's your point. That doesn't mean he blocked it. That's just a natural reaction to being blown away.


 So the same as Madara, he did not block A's attacks. 





> No it didn't and you have nothing to base that on. That's like saying Danzo's physical strength was boosted due to having Hashirama's cells, same as Yamato which is never at all implied.


 seriously you need to reread the entire manga. 
From Tobi's profile (who's by the way from Hashirama's cells)



> Joining forces/cooperating in a union/incorporated with himself (and a) human being, even more strength is continued/going to be produced/created


 
And no offence, but since I really doubt that you have been watching the same manga 
 would you say  has the same physical strength as himself after getting Hashirama's cells from Yamato?





> Because Madara himself only commented on Hashirama's regen hence the "lost grace" comment. Madara of all people always boasts about any huge boost he gets. However, he never did that with SM which implies the stats that were boosted were * minimal *. Only his regen was worth noting. Like I said before, his weaker body was able to block V2 Ei's punch.


Pfff 




> Murdering Hirzuen's personal ANBU isn't a Kage-level feat. Minato's more concerned about how he broke through the barrier than beating a bunch of featless Anbu. Breaking a barrier is considered a kage-level feat, but that has nothing to do with fighting capabilities, so I'm afraid Minato having no concern of Obito beating a bunch of Anbu means it isn't a Kage-level feat.


Obito knows all of Madara's jutsus. If he is not Kage-level, neither is madara. 




> Featless in terms of actual fighting capabilities, yes.



Hashirama only fought featless Madara as well. Those feats you mention madara gained AFTER his battle with Hashirama. However, the one who fought Hashirama is a young featless Madara. 



> I'm assuming you think Young Bee is as strong as he was in his prime. It's been 17 years at least since Minato fought young, featless Ei. You seriously can't be implying that Ei barely got any faster than he is now. That's ridiculous and you should feel bad.


 
And I assume young featless madara is as strong as himself after at least over 30 years? 
You seriously can't be implying that madara barely got any faster and stronger than he is now!
Especially after awakening the Sage's chakra




> He also got beat by Hiruzen. You seriously can't use that as evidence. There's also the fact that ET Hashi's feats don't compare to Alive Hashirmama's feats, so there's that.


ET Hashirama is almost as powerful as he is while alive. That has been made clear.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 30, 2015)

Even though I am pretty sure it's a completely waste of time to debate you... 


> [=StarWanderer;52790246]Kaguya has never been hailed for speed. Is she slower than Minato?


Kaguya was sealed for more than 1000 years. Hashirama was around all this time, and no one said a damn thing about him. Needless to say Zetsu stated that she is much faster than how she was, and we saw her trashing Sasuke and dodging his teleportations. 



> Can you prove Ei was the same after 17 years?
> 
> Can you prove Madara's speed was amped?



The fact that he says only Minato and Naruto dodged his fastest punch. 
if his fastest punch was changed then he would say Naruto is the only one who dodge it. 



> No you cant. Because Ei wasnt the same as 17 years ago. Because Madara's speed wasnt amped.


-snip-
So, A's speed has changed because of the 17 years. However, nothing about madara was changed even though he lived  67 years after his fight with Hashirama? 




> If Hashirama wasnt fast, he would never react to Madara, whom Kishimoto himself made super-duper fast, with speed enough to block V2 Ei's punch, dodge Gaara's sand, block BM Naruto's clone attack with a Gunbai and outpase SM Naruto effortlessly. Also, even his mokuton clones were fast enough to tag prime V2 Ei. Its a manga fact both Hashirama and Madara are fast. Kishimoto made them super fast.


Hashirama fought young featless madara. 67 years old after than madara is different. 
He did not block A, or Naruto when he was alive, he did that AFTER around 67 years of his battle with Hashirama.  
-snip-


> Its stupid to say, or write, that Minato is the fastest character in Manga. Because Kishimoto never said, or wrote such a thing.


Oh really? 


> A handsome man shining with natural-borne talent, like a blinding glint (purple lightning), time and space itself seem to stand still—.
> Minato handles to perfection the “Hiraishin no jutsu” space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama, and learnt from Master Jiraiya the pride of being a ninja.
> His achievements began 27 years ago with the “Jinchuuriki kidnapping prevention” in Kirigakure; during the 3rd Great Ninja War, he led inferior Konoha camps to victory for times too numerous to mention.
> Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages.



-snip-



> 1. Hashirama has better reflexes and combat speed than Minato. Shunshin is a travel speed technique. Minato has never shown the ability to increase his attacking speed with a Shunshin. In fact, no one did.


Prove it.  



> 2. I highly doubt Hashirama was moving as fast as he can in that instance.


No one cares what you think. The manga showed other wise. 



> Kabuto restored Madara's youth when he reanimated him. The same youth during which Hashirama fought him. And, with his youth, he has shown super speed. And Hashirama reacted to him.


No, that was featless young madara. 
Or do you think the 67 years old or more hasn't change a thing?


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 30, 2015)

Jesus christ what happened to this forum sm naruto having much better reflexes then minato  base hashirama blitzing minato with shunshin  where are you good forum members i need hope that this place isnt lost


----------



## Veracity (Jan 30, 2015)

What sage Naruto has equal if not better reactions then base Minato? 

Seeing as Minato was just able to warp away from a V2 shunshin from AY with his fist imches from his nose: Well you can't train your inner body. It can be a critical hit even for the toughest guy

And KCM Naruto reacts in the same way except activates his shunshin instead. AGAIN right when ays fist is inches from connecting: Well you can't train your inner body. It can be a critical hit even for the toughest guy

And then sage mode Narutos reactions are to Kcm >: Well you can't train your inner body. It can be a critical hit even for the toughest guy

Sage mode Narutos reactions are also > to MS Kakashi so ..


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 30, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> sm hashis speed and reactions are near madaras but madara having a slight edge in cqc with edo madara pumping sm hashi full of rods while hashi had to use ninjutsu mokuton to subdue him.....stop giving madara sasukes feats ems sasuke was able to draw blood from sm madara in a cqc exchange....hashi was never stated or hyped to be a speedster or a cqc fighter his mokuton made him what he is



base hashirama is equal to madara in cqc. since when are the rinnegans chakra rods not ninjutsu? if you want to argue like that, madara started using ninjutsu before hashirama did.

hashirama restrained madara before madara could restrain hashirama, so madara putting rods inside hashirama mean absolutely nothing. he couldnt activate them before hashirama drained all of his chakra.

sm madara is nothing special. he is simply blind madara without full access to sage mode since he isnt even in the form himself. 

madara himself wields hagoromos chakra(six paths chakra) due to him having the rinnegan. him not manifesting six paths senjutsu after gaining sage chakra proves that the chakra he took is entirely separate from his own.

ems sasuke having greater speed and reflexes than madara is a completely laughable notion, not when madara stated that they have the same exact choku tomoe, so their eyes would be equal once they develop to their highest point.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Just for test.
> 
> A is faster than his father, anyone actually * watch the manga  * knows that.



 No scans to prove it because that was never stated. Feats suggest 3rd Raikage is faster.

 Also, watches the manga. Haha, hard to take you seriously.



 He relied on subduing Bee instead of fighting a young, featless Ei.





> Proof that Hashirama has such thing.



 Outpaces Madara and 100% Kyuubi. Minato can't do that.



> lol, who said SM Naruto has better reaction than Minato?



 Minato can barely react to young, featless Ei while SM Naruto can effortlessly dodge a much faster 3rd Raikage. You think Base Minato is on SM Naruto's speed tier? Dafuq.



> And by the way, Madara fodderstompped Hashirama when he returned to life.



 Yet couldn't do so against Hashirama when he was alive.






> I do not know what * manga are you watching. *



 Obviously you're bull shitting as I actually read the manga, not watch it.




> So the same as Madara, he did not block A's attacks.



 Except that was made clear instead of being outright blitzed.




> seriously you need to reread the entire manga.
> From Tobi's profile (who's by the way from Hashirama's cells)



 Zetsu suit my friend.





> And no offence, but since I really doubt that you have been watching the same manga
> would you say  has the same physical strength as himself after getting Hashirama's cells from Yamato?



Not getting your point.




> Pfff



 Yet you haven't proven otherwise.





> Obito knows all of Madara's jutsus. If he is not Kage-level, neither is madara.



 Except Madara is established to be. All of Obito's Kage-level feats aren't related to his fighting capabilities at all.




> Hashirama only fought featless Madara as well. Those feats you mention madara gained AFTER his battle with Hashirama. However, the one who fought Hashirama is a young featless Madara.



 I can't believe you just said that. Now I know you're bullshitting.




> And I assume young featless madara is as strong as himself after at least over 30 years?
> You seriously can't be implying that madara barely got any faster and stronger than he is now!
> Especially after awakening the Sage's chakra



 He never awakened Sage Chakra. He only awakened the Rinnegan.

 I seriously don't know if you're being serious or bullshitting.



> ET Hashirama is almost as powerful as he is while alive. That has been made clear.



 Except Madara outright stated that being revived made him more accustomed to fighting and returned him to his previous level of power. He never stated he was the strongest he's ever been which means Alive Hashirama was on that level of power.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 30, 2015)

> =NarutoX28;52791584]No scans to prove it because that was never stated. Feats suggest 3rd Raikage is faster.


Except A stated that there is no one faster than him except for Minato. And A's father was alive at the time. 



> He relied on subduing Bee instead of fighting a young, featless Ei.


No, B who interfered to protect A. Otherwise, Minato would have done it himself. 



> Outpaces Madara and 100% Kyuubi. Minato can't do that.


lol, yes he can. Minato outpaced Hashirama himself for your information. 
and here he protected Kushina from Kurama even though he was at the end of the village. lol




> Minato can barely react to young, featless Ei while SM Naruto can effortlessly dodge a much faster 3rd Raikage. You think Base Minato is on SM Naruto's speed tier? Dafuq.


Except you are reading a lot of fan-fiction apparently. A was the second fastest after Minato. Not
sure from where you came up with that nonsense of the 3rd being faster, let alone much faster.  

- He is not in his tier. He is far above him. 


> Yet couldn't do so against Hashirama when he was alive.


Obviously because he is much stronger now. Hashirama fought young, featless madara. 




> Obviously you're bull shitting as I actually read the manga, not watch it.


you can't read if if you don't see it though. 



> Except that was made clear instead of being outright blitzed.



Just like how it was made clear in Naruto's case as well. catch ya... 



> Zetsu suit my friend.


Which is made of Hashirama's cells. 



> Not getting your point.


Zetsu's body got muscular because of Hashirama's cells. Thus, Hashirama's cells do increase the physical power. 




> Yet you haven't proven otherwise.



 I honestly do not remember what that point was. So, I will just ignore it. All I remember it was some utter nonsense honestly.  




> Except Madara is established to be. All of Obito's Kage-level feats aren't related to his *fighting capabilities at all*.


Says you? Madara taught him his jutsu. If you can prove otherwise, go ahead. 




> I can't believe you just said that. Now I know you're bullshitting.


 No, you ARE bullshitting. Otherwise, what's the different? We haven't seen A in that time against anyone but Minao. And we haven't seen Madara against anyone but Hashirama. 

A had 17 years to get better according to you. Madara had 67 years to get better. So, other than the Hypocrisy and double standards, what's the different? That Madara had much more time? 



> He never awakened Sage Chakra. He only awakened the Rinnegan.
> 
> I seriously don't know if you're being serious or bullshitting.


 
- Which is made of the Sage's chakra as he stated himself. Or you think you know better?
Hashirama's cells from Yamato

- Just like how I do not know if you are being serious, or bullshitting. Or why does that work in your case, but not this case?  


> Except Madara outright stated that being revived made him more accustomed to fighting and returned him to *his previous level of power*.



He said the first part. Never said the bold. You are using lies to make your argument.  
Hashirama's cells from Yamato


> He never stated he was the strongest he's ever been which means Alive Hashirama was on that level of power.


lol, and did A stated that he was the strongest/fastest he has ever been?


----------



## Deer Lord (Jan 30, 2015)

So let me get this straight
You take away all of hashi's stuff and still let minato keep FTG and rasengan?




even with regen hashi loses with these ridiculous restrictions.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 30, 2015)

You know what, I'm done with this bullshit.

 Discussion is about Hashirama vs Minato, so I'm done trying prove this bullshit that isn't even related to the subject. If StarWanderer wants to keep debating, that's fine, but I'm done debating something that is time consuming and isn't going anywhere. You did well trolling me Hussain, you really did, but now it's time for me to actually participate in match-ups that do matter.


----------



## Kyu (Jan 30, 2015)

Don't let the door hit ya on your way out.



> No, because he is in Madara's speed and strength class, who blocked V2 Ei's punch point blank, while being in the air.



In a zombified body that's incapable of sustaining broken limbs from a 300 pound black guy encased in lightning or a haymaker from Tsunade.



> Sounds legit, because Hashirama, feats wise (equal to Madara in speed = great feat), is above Minato.



They're not.



> Yellow Flash will become Bloody Flash.



A moniker he'll receive from all the Senju blood staining his cloak.



> Its not a foolish statement. Young Ei, a character without any speed feats, is <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Hashirama in terms of speed.



Y'know..this would be the moment I'd stop taking you seriously if I hadn't already.




> Edo body, not mokuton body, with Hashi's cells in its chest. And before you'll write fantasy about Kabuto amping Madara - his speed was not amped. At all.



Kabuto made special modifications to Madara's Edo Tensei - mokutonboob included.



> Maybe, but Madara's those Madara's performances are still great. I doubt Minato would do just as fine as Madara against SM Naruto, for example.



Minato clowns Ei's top speed. This is a fact.

Why do you insist on comparing him to SM Naruto?

Minato's reactions are > War SM Nardo


----------



## Veracity (Jan 30, 2015)

@kyu that's false War Arc Naruto has equal reactions to base Minato if not better

And Madaras EDO body has nothing to do with his ability to take massive amounts of damage. He would have taken that same damage alive .


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 30, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You know what, I'm done with this bullshit.
> 
> Discussion is about Hashirama vs Minato, so I'm done trying prove this bullshit that isn't even related to the subject. If StarWanderer wants to keep debating, that's fine, but I'm done debating something that is time consuming and isn't going anywhere. You did well trolling me Hussain, you really did, but now it's time for me to actually participate in match-ups that do matter.



Now that's what you call concession.

Owned by another poster and had no counters, but tries to play it off as if they just can't be bothered. Classical forum excuse.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except A stated that there is no one faster than him except for Minato. And A's father was alive at the time.



 My bad, Naruto stated that the 3rd has speed on par with the 4th.




> No, B who interfered to protect A. Otherwise, Minato would have done it himself.



 So pretty much you're saying a Kunai would've fucked up A when a Raiton Sword from Sasuke couldn't even pierce through Shippuden Ei's Raiton armor?

 Mmmkay, thx for that.


l





> ol, yes he can. Minato outpaced Hashirama himself for your information.
> and here he protected Kushina from Kurama even though he was at the end of the village. lol



 Yet you have no proof that was shunshin. Not even V2 Ei has shown shunshin like that and it's been shown stated that Minato's FTG is what makes him faster than Ei, not shunshin. He couldn't even use shunshin to dodge a featless Ei the same way KCM Naruto did against V2 Ei, so there's no way in hell that was his actual speed.




> Except you are reading a lot of fan-fiction apparently. A was the second fastest after Minato. Not
> sure from where you came up with that nonsense of the 3rd being faster, let alone much faster.



 We're both wrong as Naruto stated his speed is on par with the 4th's. 



> - He is not in his tier. He is far above him.



 Nope.



> Obviously because he is much stronger now. Hashirama fought young, featless madara.



  The same Madara that is proven to be the strongest shinobi in the ninja world and is on par with Hashirama. Yeah, what you're saying is complete bullshit. No one's calling you out on that considering they support your Minato bias.




> you can't read if if you don't see it though.



 Yes, you have to see, but you don't watch while you read the pages on the manga. That's like saying somebody watches a book. I'm going to let this slide doe. All is forgiven.




> Just like how it was made clear in Naruto's case as well. catch ya...



 Nope. Just a natural instinct to move your arms forward when you're blown away unless you're saying Sai blocked Madara too.




> Which is made of Hashirama's cells.



 Which were fueled by the Mazou. Your Zetsu example is terrible b/c they used that Statue's power.




> Zetsu's body got muscular because of Hashirama's cells. Thus, Hashirama's cells do increase the physical power.



 No it didn't. The Zetsu's body got muscular due to accessing the statue's power.




> I honestly do not remember what that point was. So, I will just ignore it. All I remember it was some utter nonsense honestly.



 Which is why I'm done with this thread after my response.




> Says you? Madara taught him his jutsu. If you can prove otherwise, go ahead.



 What jutsu? A jutsu that enhances his fighting capabilities? Oh wait, besides Kamui, he displayed none against Minato, so thus, he is featless.




> A had 17 years to get better according to you. Madara had 67 years to get better. So, other than the Hypocrisy and double standards, what's the different? That Madara had much more time?



 67 years? More like 30 years. 

 A had 17 years to get better and showed that he did. Madara could not as he attempted to summon the Demon Statue and had to rely on its chakra to even be able to live as shown here.

 where Sasuke had already recovered from the stone wall incident.

 Now please get your bullshit out of here.




> - Which is made of the Sage's chakra as he stated himself. Or you think you know better?
> Hashirama's cells from Yamato
> 
> - Just like how I do not know if you are being serious, or bullshitting. Or why does that work in your case, but not this case?



 I honestly don't get what that scan's trying to portray. The only thing mentioned is the mixture of Asura and Indra's chakra which allowed Madara to awaken the Rinnegan which provides no boost in speed, strength, or reflexes. Not sure what you're trying to prove here as this really doesn't help your argument.




> He said the first part. Never said the bold. You are using lies to make your argument.
> Hashirama's cells from Yamato
> 
> lol, and did A stated that he was the strongest/fastest he has ever been?



 I admit, I worded that wrong. Madara credited that he's more accustomed to battle, but never one stated that he's even stronger than he's ever been. If he did, then he would've boasted at Hashirama about acheiving a power that far surpasses Hashirama's power when he was Alive, but that never was once stated and would've been out of character if Madara was stronger, but didn't state it.

 It was also stated that Hiruzen is the strongest Kage ever which means Hiruzen dwarfs Minato.



 Now, like I promised, I'm backing away from this argument.


----------



## Kyu (Jan 31, 2015)

> @kyu that's false War Arc Naruto has equal reactions to base Minato if not better



His best feat his reacting to Ei's father.

Ei (who's notably faster) failed to best Minato's reflexes on numerous occasions. 



> And Madaras EDO body has nothing to do with his ability to take massive amounts of damage. He would have taken that same damage alive .



If that were true, VotE Madara could replicate Edo Madara's feat and block Tsunade's kick without taking any damage.


----------



## Altair21 (Jan 31, 2015)

Minato wins this easily. You basically took everything away from Hashirama (mainly his trump card) while letting Minato keep his (FTG). Not to mention Minato specializes in CQC due to FTG. Not to mention the distance is 3 meters. Hashirama is essentially fucked here.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 31, 2015)

Kyu said:


> His best feat his reacting to Ei's father.
> 
> Ei (who's notably faster) failed to best Minato's reflexes on numerous occasions.
> 
> ...



Lol. Except Minato and KCM Naruto react to Ay in the same manner.

Naruto: airborne

Minato: airborne

And Sage Naruto was directly stated to have better reactions then KCM Naruto: airborne

And yeah sage Naruto reacted to the Sandaime Raikage ? But you don't take into consideration that his reaction was massively superior to anything KCM Naruto could have done. He entered that mode so he could counter attack the Raikage with insane reactions. Being able to duck under his arm at the last second and slam a Resengan into his forearm  is beyond impressive.

and no cause Tsunade's muscles were shredded by the teleportation tech: airborne
airborne
She wouldn't need Genesis Rebirth to heal the minor scratches on her body if there wasn't internal damage also.

It's basically what happened here also: airborne


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 1, 2015)

> Kaguya was sealed for more than 1000 years. Hashirama was around all this time, and no one said a damn thing about him. Needless to say Zetsu stated that she is much faster than how she was, and we saw her trashing Sasuke and dodging his teleportations.



He sayd that in the end of their fight, that she at that moment was faster than ever. He didnt say such a thing before when they were fighting.

As for praise and hype, peoples opinion means nothing. Hashirama was equal to Madara in speed and that itself is a feat.



> The fact that he says only Minato and Naruto dodged his fastest punch.
> if his fastest punch was changed then he would say Naruto is the only one who dodge it.



Its not nessesary for him to say so. And its stupid to think his speed hasnt changed after all those years of training he had. 17 years of training and improving his skills, his chakra. Ei's physical capabilities and chakra changed throughout those years. Young Ei is featless and is <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< prime Ei in speed.



> I must say, I would give you an A+ in hypocrisy, as you are the biggest I have seen in my life.
> So, A's speed has changed because of the 17 years. However, nothing about madara was changed even though he lived 67 years after his fight with Hashirama?



Madara trained throughout those years he was living in a cave? No. 

Also, you ignore the fact Kabuto restored Madara's youth, during which he fought Hashirama. His physical capabilities and chakra were the same, except chakra was regenerating infinitely. But all those things were the same as before when he was ressurrected with RT. 

You ignore that Hashirama had no problems of reacting to Madara even when he wasnt living 60+ years.

So of course we can apply Edo/RT Madara's feats to EMS Madara with no problem. 



> Hashirama fought young featless madara. 67 years old after than madara is different.
> He did not block A, or Naruto when he was alive, he did that AFTER around 67 years of his battle with Hashirama.



Already countered. 



> Yup, go to the nearest mirror.



Thats an insult right there. I will report your post.



> Oh really?
> Quote:
> A handsome man shining with natural-borne talent, like a blinding glint (purple lightning), time and space itself seem to stand still?.
> Minato handles to perfection the ?Hiraishin no jutsu? space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama, and learnt from Master Jiraiya the pride of being a ninja.
> ...



Yes, realy. That statement is a hyperbole and can be addressed to travel speed, for example. Minato isnt the fastest shinobi at least because 7 Gates Guy demonstrated better speed.

And "praised"... Praise means nothing at all. That statement means that lots of shinobi thought Minato was the fastest. But praise and hype means nothing.

I wanna see Kishimoto telling that Minato is overall the fastest shinobi. That he has fastest reflexes, movement speed etc. I wanna see that, or something like that in Manga/Databooks.



> Prove it.



Was an equal to Madara. That itself is enough to suggest such a thing.



> No one cares what you think. The manga showed other wise.



And what exactly showed the manga? 



> No, that was featless young madara.
> Or do you think the 67 years old or more hasn't change a thing?



Already countered, effortlessly i might add.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 1, 2015)

> In a zombified body that's incapable of sustaining broken limbs from a 300 pound black guy encased in lightning or a haymaker from Tsunade.



Madara blocked Ei's V2 punch with his hands. He was portrayed as a shinobi, fast enough to react to max Ei's speed.



> They're not.



Explain to me, why.



> A moniker he'll receive from all the Senju blood staining his cloak.



You see, there are lots of fanboism in your posts. I can explain why Hashirama will make Minato's face a bloody mess in CQC. Because he is physically faster and has better reaction speed. And his sensing will allow him to sense to which direction Minato teleported. Thats it. You, on the other hand, cant prove me wrong.



> Y'know..this would be the moment I'd stop taking you seriously if I hadn't already.



Because you lost this debate already. And if you think Ei, after 17 years of training, is the same as when he was young...



> Kabuto made special modifications to Madara's Edo Tensei - mokutonboob included.



Yes, but he never modified his speed and reflexes.



> Minato clowns Ei's top speed. This is a fact.
> 
> Why do you insist on comparing him to SM Naruto?
> 
> Minato's reactions are > War SM Nardo



Young, featless Ei's top speed.

And, by feats, SM Naruto's reactions >>>>>>>> young Ei's reactions.

You also forgot the fact young Bee reacted to Minato at least 2 times.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 1, 2015)

Kyu said:


> His best feat his reacting to Ei's father.
> 
> Ei (who's notably faster) failed to best Minato's reflexes on numerous occasions.
> 
> ...



 What's your point? That Edo Madara who's inferior to VoTE Madara could block Tsunade's surprise kick after Ei and Tsunade's instantaneous teleportation? That helps us more than it helps you.

 Also:

It did the moment after

 The Susanoo clones are fast enough to tag Ei yet could not dodge the Massive Jinton that Onoki produced while Edo Madara was capable of outrunning the Jinton and Alive Madara has far better physical capabilities. Hashirama himself can outpace PS + Kyuubi (Unstabilized) that could destroy multiple mountain ranges in an instant while Ei can't even dodge a PS slash that only destroyed one mountain range.

 Ei is also not faster than the 3rd.

It did the moment after

 Which pretty much implies they're on par with one another in terms of speed.


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 1, 2015)

minato haters unite lol sm naruto having >>>>>>>reactions to ei sm naruto having much better reactions then minato hashirama blitzing minato with shunshin 
third raikage much faster then ei magnificent!!ck


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 1, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> minato haters unite lol sm naruto having >>>>>>>reactions to ei sm naruto having much better reactions then minato hashirama blitzing minato with shunshin
> third raikage much faster then ei magnificent!!ck



So, young Ei was faster than Third Raikage?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 1, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> minato haters unite lol sm naruto having >>>>>>>reactions to ei sm naruto having much better reactions then minato hashirama blitzing minato with shunshin
> third raikage much faster then ei magnificent!!ck



 You obviously didn't read what I typed. I conceded and admitted that the 3rd Raikage's speed is on par with the 4th's noted by Naruto.

 SM Naruto having better reactions than Ei isn't ridiculous. Can you prove why it is?

 Can you prove why Hashi can't blitz Minato from 3m? No you can't. The moment where Minato tries to throw his Kunai's is the moment where Hashi just shunshins and cuts his head off. Minato's best feat was reacting to Young Ei and even Young Bee could react to Minato. The only reason Minato survived is due to Ei's lack of knowledge and the fact that he didn't even try to charge him due to Minato's hype. Hashi has knowledge and will speed blitz him before Minato even manages to throw his Kunai.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 1, 2015)

Hashirama can shunshin blitz Minatom from 3m?!

Oh my head? Can a mod pls lock this thread, such stupidy doesn't deserve to go on


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 1, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Hashirama can shunshin blitz Minatom from 3m?!
> 
> Oh my head? Can a mod pls lock this thread, such stupidy doesn't deserve to go on



 Minato was nearly blitzed by Young, featless Ei.

 It's already proven that Hashirama is far above that speed, so Minato can't even react, esp. not from 3 meters.

 Next time, instead of calling us out, actually provide evidence. The reason we're spewing our so called "bullshit" is because you guys have nothing to refute it.


----------

