# Tsukuyomi vs. Perfect Jinchūriki



## Ersa (Jul 1, 2015)

If perfect Jinchūriki are immune to Tsukuyomi why does

*Naruto warn B of Tsukuyomi despite knowing he's a perfect Jinchūriki?*

*How did Obito control one with just Sharingan?*

*Databook III*


> Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness.



Tell me reasonable unbiased posters of NBD?


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## Alucardemi (Jul 1, 2015)

Tsukuyomi fucks them, as there is no time to dispell it via partner method.

Obito's ridiculously OP genjutsu feat of controlling a Perfect Kage Host has alot of mystery around it, but I think its fair to speculate that he had to continuously supress the three-tails chakra, with the same method Sasuke supressed Naruto's Kyuubi chakra once, while keeping Yagura under his MS genjutsu.

Therefore, while the method worked, it wouldn't be very practical for battle, as you'd have to enter the enemy's mind in more ways than one, and use two techinques simultaneously. Its even likely that Obito couldn't even have moved far from Yagura while controlling him.

Rinnegan genjutsu is also arguably similar in that it can only be dispelled by another Rinnegan, as Mugen Tsukuyomi would've fucked Naruto, while Sasuke's Rinnegan could block it.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 1, 2015)

Tsukiyomi cannot be broken by anything but a high level Sharingan user and higher Dojutsu levels, None of this Chakra control, none of this Perfect Jin BS, You Need a strong Dojutsu to beat it.

Now you CAN tank Tsukiyomi but thats not the question of the thread.


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## Six (Jul 1, 2015)

They're not immune to tsukuyomi, that's just fanfic. Even kakashi said normal methods don't work for it.


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## Trojan (Jul 1, 2015)

Tsukuyomi gets broken. If the MT does get broken, then there is no way the regular one cannot be broken. 
It could also be said that itachi was lying.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 2, 2015)

Was Bee immune to MT? How about Naruto?


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## ShadoLord (Jul 2, 2015)

Itachi's tsukuyomi controls time so idk if they can break out of it, but Tobi's genjutsu was second only to Madara as he managed to control the Kyuubi itself, likely got it's power because of Hashirama's blood. So I guess Tobi's genjutsu>Itachi's as Sasuke can dispel it easily.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 2, 2015)

When Naruto first went bijuu mode we saw him go into the bijuu's deep conscious or whatever and they all gave him chakra. It happened instantly, they held a whole conversation and everything down to giving chakra. So yes they would be able to do partner method and break out.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 2, 2015)

Naruto pissed himself at the idea of Amaterasu or Tsukyomi hitting Bee, so Tsukyomi would certainly fuck any Perfect Jin up.

 Be logical here. Tsukyomi deals psychological trauma towards their opponents and diminishes their spirit. They're not escaping the physical and mental fatigue caused by Tsukyomi as their body will be affected by it before their Bijuu wakes them up.


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## Alucardemi (Jul 2, 2015)

Also, note that Bee was caught in Sasuke's genjutsu for a short span of time before being able to strike Sasuke's blind-spot. Same thing happened in B v Itachi. In other words, there is a certain lag before the Bijuu breaks the genjutsu.

Which for Tsukuyomi is fatal. Which is why Naruto told B to not get hit, else it would be over.


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## ueharakk (Jul 2, 2015)

bijuu perceive the external world through the jinchurki's mind.  If the jinchuriki's mind perceives time slowed down, so does the bijuu, which means the bijuu has three days to snap the jinchuriki out of the jutsu.

So no, tsukuyomi doesn't work.

Naruto didn't know about the perks of being a perfect jinchuriki when he said that amaterasu or tsukuyomi will oneshot, and his statement was false anyway when we know bee escaped amaterasu in canon and has multiple ways to do it even after getting lit.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 2, 2015)

To break genjutsu with the partner method requires a transfer of chakra.

A transfer of chakra requires time.

There is no time to do it if the genjutsu is over in an instant.


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## ueharakk (Jul 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> To break genjutsu with the partner method requires a transfer of chakra.
> 
> A transfer of chakra requires time.
> 
> There is no time to do it if the genjutsu is over in an instant.



To make someone perceive something in genjutsu requires manipulation of chakra.  

Manipulation of chakra requires time

There's no time to do it if the genjutsu is over in an instant.

Tsukuyomi isn't literally instantaneous, it's just extremely fast which becomes irrelevant when the perception of time within the tsukuyomi affects the partner as well as the jinchuriki.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 2, 2015)

No, it's literally an instant, as has been stated multiple times in the manga. Jiraiya's description of typical genjutsu doesn't disprove the stated mechanics of Itachi's Tsukuyomi, as Jiraiya's never encountered anything remotely like it (nor did Chiyo.)​


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## Alucardemi (Jul 2, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> the perception of time within the tsukuyomi affects the partner as well as the jinchuriki.



That's not how the technique would work. Partner and Bijuu don't share minds.


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## ueharakk (Jul 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No, it's literally instant, as has been stated multiple times. Jiraiya's shitty description of typical genjutsu doesn't disprove stated mechanics of Itachi's Tsukuyomi.​



No, it's literally not instant as the explanation of any genjutsu debunks that claim.  If it was literally instant, then no one would be able to do anything about it, even other sharingan users since they'd be affected by it before they'd be capable of doing anything about it with their own sharingan which needs to utilize chakra in order to do anything, yet the manga states that one can counter it if you have strong enough eye power.

If you want to ignore mechanics of jutsu and take every manga statement as blind fact (not surprising for itachi supporters since that suits their agenda more often than not) then when Bee states that genjutsu doesn't work on perfect jinchuriki's, you have to accept that as blind fact as well, thus Tsukuyomi being a genjutsu doesn't work on perfect jinchurikis.



Alucardemi said:


> That's not how the technique would work. Partner and Bijuu don't share minds.


I didn't say they SHARE minds, I said the bijuu perceive the external world through the minds of their partners.  If you don't dispute that claim, then nothing you've typed goes against my argument.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 2, 2015)

The Sharingan already has chakra in it in order to be active.

So try again. 



Kakashi _hits the ground_ in one second (so starts falling in less.)



_Less than a moment_. That's different from "a few seconds."


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Was Bee immune to MT? How about Naruto?



I am talking about breaking the Genjutsu. At the end of the day, the Bijuus' chakra inside Narudo was part of breaking it. Itachi's Tsukuyomi is FAR weaker, not even close really. As such, if even the strongest Genjutsu can be rebelled/broken, then there is no need for us to believe that the regular Tsukuyomi out of all genjutsu is different.


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## Alucardemi (Jul 2, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> I didn't say they SHARE minds, I said the bijuu perceive the external world through the minds of their partners.



They don't, lol. Your statements are sounding like hair-splitting fanfic. 

Kurama's mind, and therefore their perceptions, is solidly separated from Naruto's, so on, so forth. That's why even Hachibi couldn't dispell Itachi's and Sasuke's genjutsu instantly.


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## ueharakk (Jul 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The Sharingan already has chakra in it in order to be active.
> 
> Try again.


That chakra has to be used in order to combat Tsukuyomi, something that's literally impossible to do if Tsukuyomi is literally instant.

Try again.


Oh yeah, and you've already conceded this argument based on all the other things you ignored in the post you've quoted.



Alucardemi said:


> They don't, lol. Your statements are sounding like hair-splitting fanfic.
> 
> Kurama's mind, and therefore their perceptions, is solidly separated from Naruto's, so on, so forth. That's why even Hachibi couldn't dispell Itachi's and Sasuke's genjutsu instantly.



The hachibi only noticed Bee was in a genjutsu after bee himself noticed he was in genjutsu proving that the hachibi perceives reality through the mind of bee.  Had the hachibi not perceived it through bee's mind, he would have realized bee was in genjutsu before bee noticed he was in it especially when itachi used the illusion type to trick bee into grabbing air.

It's hair-splitting fact to the people who don't want it to be true


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 2, 2015)

It's not instant, but it's fast enough that if you're looking in his eyes and he already has MS activated, then his eye begins to bleed, you will succumb to the technique, regardless of whether or not you can debunk it with a particular Dojutsu you may possess while it's happening- which in fact has never happened. 

Tsukuyomi will run for it's intended time frame of torture, no Perfect Jinchuriki can break out in 1 second of real-time. That being said, they can tank it, because when they come out of it they'll still have a ridiculous amount of physical stamina and chakra given to them by their Bijuu- who is not affected by the genjutsu. Moreover, the Jinchuriki can simply give their body over to their bijuu if they're incapable of continuing to battle due to mental strain, which is unlikely considering pre-skip Kakashi managed to, and Naruto practically came back to life at full power twice in the series (pre-skip against Sasuke, war-arc kurama stripping by Madara). 

In short, it's useless against them.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 2, 2015)

No point in arguing someone who ignores canon.

"Less than a moment." - canon

"A few seconds." - you

"Partner method won't work." - canon

"Partner method in this case works." - you

"If he gets you with Tsukuyomi Bee, it's over." - canon

"Naruto wasn't aware that Bee's the exception..." - you


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## ueharakk (Jul 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No point in arguing someone who ignores canon.
> 
> "Less than a moment."



yet you ignore: "illusions don't work on a jinchuriki who can control their beast" which means that everyone should ignore your statments on this site since you're directly ignoring canon.

Oh yeah, and 'less than a moment' HAS to be hyperbole since the shortest possible definition of a moment would be an instant, which means tsukuyomi would even be FASTER than an instant which not only contradicts your claims, but also would mean it works before the caster even uses the jutsu.... which is obviously not true.



Strategoob said:


> "A few seconds." - you


When did I ever say it takes ' a few seconds'?



Strategoob said:


> "Partner method won't work." - canon
> 
> "Partner method in this case works." - you


yet the context of that statement had nothing to do with a partner who's always chakra linked to you, which is why Bee is able to break out of the same genjutsu that ended C despite both acting too fast for partner method to do anything.



Strategoob said:


> "If he gets you with Tsukuyomi Bee, it's over." - canon
> "Naruto wasn't aware that Bee's the exception..." - you


and here you deliberately leave out naruto stating that not only tsukuyomi, but also AMATERASU would end bee if he got hit, something we know isn't true whch means that naruto wasn't aware that bee was an exception in order to try and deceive others into believing a lie.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 2, 2015)

But they did work- Killer Bee fell on his ass against MS Sasuke's Genjutsu and Itachi's base sharingan cast a clear illusion on him. It was only when Gyuki noticed he was in Genjutsu and released chakra into his system did he overcome it. 

In both instances, Killer Bee was in the illusion for more than a second.


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## ueharakk (Jul 2, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> But they did work- Killer Bee fell on his ass against MS Sasuke's Genjutsu and Itachi's base sharingan cast a clear illusion on him.



Didn't work =/= have 0 affect.

The instant bee realized he was in a genjutsu,* he gets snapped out of it by the hachibi almost immediately after* even in a battle timeframe. the only reason he fell down was to trick sasuke into thinking he got taken out by the genjutsu in order to land a clean hit on him.

Plus, as explained the hachibi experiences reality through bee's mind.  If time is slowed down for bee, it gets slowed down for the hachibi, therefore he'd snap bee out before tsukuyomi does any damage to him.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 2, 2015)

Do you mean it didn't succeed in the death of Killer Bee?

Breaking out of it =/= doesn't work against them

The quote you provided was outright contradicted in the manga, the illusion temporarily disabled Killer Bee's movements and senses, and the other altered his perception of the environment- for a short time. It *worked*.


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## ueharakk (Jul 2, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Do you mean it didn't succeed in the death of Killer Bee?
> 
> Breaking out of it =/= doesn't work against them
> 
> The quote you provided was outright contradicted in the manga, the illusion temporarily disabled Killer Bee's movements and senses, and the other altered his perception of the environment- for a short time. It *worked*.



The instant bee realized he was in a genjutsu,* he gets snapped out of it by the hachibi almost immediately after* even in a battle timeframe. the only reason he fell down was to trick sasuke into thinking he got taken out by the genjutsu in order to land a clean hit on him.

Plus, as explained the hachibi experiences reality through bee's mind.  If time is slowed down for bee, it gets slowed down for the hachibi, therefore he'd snap bee out before tsukuyomi does any damage to him.

Once again having an affect =/= working, bee obviously didn't mean 'literally have no affect' by 'not working' in his statement just like tons of characters don't literally mean what they say.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 2, 2015)

Dude he dropped to the ground because he lost control over his body and he was in mid-air when it was cast, thus he falls to the ground.

The same thing happened to Ei against Madara, who let go of him and let his clones move in for the kill as he fell to his knees unable to control his body.

By definition, MS Genjutsu allows the caster to take control/and or stall the movement of the opponent. Kurama experienced this first-hand, several times, from three different Uchiha. The same thing happened to the random fodder alliance nin that Madara put in Genjutsu- stopped him dead in his tracks mid-sword swing. 

The bottom line is Bee's perception of the world was altered, thus an illusion worked against him.


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## ueharakk (Jul 2, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Dude he dropped to the ground because he lost control over his body and he was in mid-air when it was cast, thus he falls to the ground.


sure, but he stayed on the ground until Sasuke turned around in order to hit him clean.



DaVizWiz said:


> The same thing happened to Ei against Madara, who let go of him and let his clones move in for the kill as he fell to his knees unable to control his body.


sure.



DaVizWiz said:


> By definition, MS Genjutsu allows the caster to take control of the opponent. Kurama experienced this first-hand, several times. The same thing happened to the random fodder alliance nin that Madara put in Genjutsu- stopped him dead in his tracks mid-sword swing.


sure



DaVizWiz said:


> The bottom line is Bee's perception of the world was altered, thus an illusion worked against him.


like I already stated, Bee's use of 'work' isn't the same as yours.  I'm using his use of the word which probably means 'will get broken out of'.  So you're right, genjutsu still does have an effect on him until he breaks out of it, but that doesn't falsify his statement since his statement wasn't intended to be taken as literally true.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 2, 2015)

> sure, but he stayed on the ground until Sasuke turned around in order to hit him clean.


That's possible, but he still lost control of his body and thus couldn't lariat when he wanted to initially. 



> like I already stated, Bee's use of 'work' isn't the same as yours.  I'm using his use of the word which probably means 'will get broken out of'.  So you're right, genjutsu still does have an effect on him until he breaks out of it, but that doesn't falsify his statement since his statement wasn't intended to be taken as literally true.


The quote is false, illusions do work against Perfect Jinchuriki, especially Tsukuyomi. 

Now, if he'd said "Illusions don't work on Perfect Jinchuriki for very long" then he'd be right. In which case Itachi would reply "I only need a second"

There is no evidence suggesting Gyuki would be caught in the time frame of the illusion, regardless of whether or not Killer Bee was experiencing it with his senses. Gyuki exists within a seal that shares chakra between Killer Bee and himself, he does not exist within his internal mind, they do not share dreams or thoughts, which is what an illusion is.

If Jinchuriki and Bijuu shared thoughts and dreams, essentially becoming one mind, the previous Jinchuriki would not have seen Kurama as a mindless beast and they wouldn't need to strategize together or tell each other stories as distinct individuals, which Bee and Naruto have been shown doing more than once with their bijuus. The illusion cast is within Bee's own mind, which is not shared by Gyuki- which is why Gyuki was unaffected by Sasuke's MS Genjutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2015)

There are 2 scenarios : 

1 - Bijuu is dragged into the Tsukiyomi, because they share a mental plane with the host. And both of them get OHKO'd.
2 - Bijuu is left outside, and by the time he/she realizes the host is in trouble, it is game over for the host.

There is  also 1 fanfiction scenario I've been hearing : 

Bijuu percieves Tsukiyomi with the same pace as the host, despite being left out(that isn't possible because it is Itachi's doing, bijuu can't percieve @ the same pace as the host). And somehow performs the chakra trick and bails the host out.

But there are 2 problems with that, 1 is like I mentioned, how does the beast percieve @ the same pace as the host if Itachi doesn't make him. 2, using chakra flow to bail the host is still a real time process. Even if it takes 1 second in real time, Tsukiyomi would be over by then. 

Eitherway, Tsukiyomi oneshots, and whoever claims otherwise is wrong.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

btw bee never noticed he was in genjutsu 
the hachibi did only after bee had been caught 

so if hachibi shared bee mind he would have been caught as well the hachibi clearly doesnt 

this is also shown when bee had to ask gyuuki for chakra against kisame because bee ran out. and hachibi told him am out as well 

if they shared minds wont bee already be aware that the hachibi was out of chakra?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 2, 2015)

No Jin is immune to Tsukuyomi. Naruto is probably the only vessel who wouldn't get dropped by it, though he'd still be in bad condition afterward.


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## The Undying (Jul 2, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Moreover, the Jinchuriki can simply give their body over to their bijuu if they're incapable of continuing to battle due to mental strain, which is unlikely considering pre-skip Kakashi managed to, and Naruto practically came back to life at full power twice in the series (pre-skip against Sasuke, war-arc kurama stripping by Madara).



I'm not sure if I agree that the mental strain won't render the Jinchuuriki helpless, but I do think you have an excellent point about the Jinchuuriki allowing their Bijuu to take over.

This could go either way for me. Considering the mechanics of Genjutsu and how it affects Jinchuuriki characters, I believe that the Bijuu is essentially outside of Tsukuyomi's reach as long as the Jinchuuriki is its target. The Bijuu can simply take over at that point after Tsukuyomi is finished, which effectively leaves it standing in place of the Jinchuurki. However, that brings into question the semantics of whether we could still consider it a win for Tsukuyomi since the Jinchuuriki, as a person, is _technically_ down for the count.


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## Bonly (Jul 2, 2015)

No Jins(perfect or not) are immune to Tsukuyomi to other genjutsu. They get effected like everyone else, only difference is they can get out of genjutsu faster then most because their Bijuu can snap them out instead of the Jin having to do it themselves.


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## Bloo (Jul 2, 2015)

The manga says Tsukuyomi is unbreakable and wouldn't be broken by the partner method, as has been stated by sharingan users and perfect jinchuuruki alike.

Itachi haters say Tsukuyomi can be broken by perfect jinchuuruki.
*Something tells me option #1 is more reliable.*

Even outside of the partner method, it took several panels for both Bee and Hachibi to realize that Bee was under Itachi's genjutsu for Hachibi to break it. No perfect jinchuuruki is immune to genjutsu if they can't even realize they're under it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2015)

The mistake people(more like those few who argue in favor of the Jin) mainly make here is that they base their argument on the premise that Kirabi, a perfect Jinchuuriki, is the outlier and Tsukiyomi is the norm. It is actually the otherway around.

We know for a fact that partner method can be used to dispell genjutsu. So a perfect Jin being able to dispell genjutsu is a legitimate generalization which would apply to most genjutsu outhere.

However, Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu outside the norm, and was stated to bypass the standart methods for breaking genjutsu, partner method included.
So yes,  a perfect Jin would dispell Tsukiyomi if you'r looking from the wrong perspective.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

A better argument here is that their recovery would faster and better due to having a bijuu sealed inside of them. Sasuke's MS genjutsu was nowhere near Itachi's level but he was able to create an opening but Bee recovered just as quickly.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 3, 2015)

Bloo said:


> The manga says Tsukuyomi is unbreakable and wouldn't be broken by the partner method, as has been stated by sharingan users and perfect jinchuuruki alike.
> 
> Itachi haters say Tsukuyomi can be broken by perfect jinchuuruki.
> *Something tells me option #1 is more reliable.*
> ...



Except from here to here, Naruto was in the bijuu's conscious and recieved chakra and exactly no time when by. He had a whole conversation, kurama had a flashback, and he got chakra from 6 tailed beast yet no time went by. So why couldn't they break out? NOT TO MENTION, NARUTO CONTROLS KURAMA'S CHAKRA. Kurama has no say in it. Naruto has the chakra. If he wants it, he gets it. So yes, they can easily break it.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> A better argument here is that their recovery would faster and better due to having a bijuu sealed inside of them. Sasuke's MS genjutsu was nowhere near Itachi's level but he was able to create an opening but Bee recovered just as quickly.



 Sasuke's Genjutsu involved an undeveloped MS that was a mere illusion designed to paralyze his target while Itachi is far more adept with his MS and has a Superior Genjutsu that deals at least a few days worth of psychological trauma in a mere instant. Bee isn't recovering instantaneously and has no feats to suggest he can regenerate that quickly.


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