# Darth Maul vs Darth Tyranus



## Aokiji (Apr 29, 2009)

Who takes this?


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## Darth (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, lets see.

Using ABC logic, Obi wan beat Maul. Anakin beat Tyranus. Obi Wan beat Anakin so technically Maul should beat Tyranus. 


nah.. just kidding. that's flawed logic anyway. Still, Maul has a double bladed lightsaber and is probably the most proficient duelist among the Sith. So in a straight on fight I think he could take Tyranus.


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## Aokiji (Apr 29, 2009)

He wasn't as good as Dooku in the Force though was he? Dooku didn't get owned by Yoda and he had both great Sith and Jedi masters. And his style is pretty well suited for one on one combat.


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## Darth (Apr 29, 2009)

Dooku was weaker than Yoda in terms of the force. But yeah, he's stronger than Maul.

But Maul can probably deflect any force lightning with his lightsaber and shrug off any other attacks with his own force powers.

I'm 100% certain Maul's dueling skills were greater than Tyranus's.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Apr 29, 2009)

Tyrannus takes this I believe, he was considered one of the greatest duelists in The Order before his defection, way up there with Mace Windu who he could beat in a friendly contest at least.

Maul was an exceptional fighter too, but his Force knowledge wasn't as skillful as Tyrannus because he was more of a physical fighter than a tactical one. All in all it still remains that Tyrannus could at least hold his own against Yoda in terms of Force and lightsaber duelling, something I highly doubt Maul could pull off.

I'm handing this to Darth Tyrannus.


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## Estrecca (Apr 29, 2009)

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous 1 said:
			
		

> "Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.
> Dooku looked around. "Or what?"
> Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.
> "Please," she said. "Don't."
> ...



All things considered I've always been of the opinion that Ventress would at least stand a chance against Maul. If I am right... well. Dooku takes it about ten times out of ten, considering _this_ and his telekinetic ownage of Obi-Wan in ROTS.


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## Fang (Apr 29, 2009)

Maul doesn't stand a chance against Tyranus. Dooku is an equal to Jinn and Windu at their peaks, and both Cin Drallig and Yoda admitted that those three were some of the best duelists of the modern Order's time.

Maul gets slaughtered, Obi-Wan never stood a chance against Dooku and Maul only lost to Obi-Wan due to CIS and arrogance.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 29, 2009)

As has been said, Dooku's better in every way.

Well, except general health. I'd guess a young man in his prime is healthier than a dude in his 80s


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## Fang (Apr 29, 2009)

Dooku was able to use the dark side of the Force to make him fight as if he was still in the peak of his prime.


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## derpylamedupederpy (Apr 29, 2009)

lol Dooku babyshakes Maul.

Though I wonder how well Maul would have developed if he never died.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 30, 2009)

Dooku, he was already a Jedi master who trained Qui and his performance against Yoda is enough to say he'd rape Maul.Maul was good at melee but I doubt he'd develop well in the force area.


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## Darth (Apr 30, 2009)

Maul could best Dooku in melee. I have no idea where people are getting the idea that Dooku was at Windu's level in dueling. That's ridiculous. Windu was the best duelist among the jedi and would have slaughtered Dooku.

That being said, Tyranus may or may not win with using mastery of the force. In an all out fight he may not get enough time to attack Maul full frontal. Keep in mind, Darth Sidious had already recognized Maul as a Sith Lord. Not as an apprentice.


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## Estrecca (Apr 30, 2009)

Darth Ruin said:


> Maul could best Dooku in melee. I have no idea where people are getting the idea that Dooku was at Windu's level in dueling. That's ridiculous. Windu was the best duelist among the jedi and would have slaughtered Dooku.



Canon disagrees, to an extent. 



			
				Yoda: Dark Rendezvous 11 said:
			
		

> As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.



Also, it is worth noting that they actually had a brief duel during the Clone Wars. 1, 2.

Neither wins the upper hand immediately and the Magnadroids interrupt before things can get too interesting, but it is clear that although Windu felt that he could take Dooku (and seeing how he handled Palpatine he probably was right about this), Tyranus wasn't _terribly_ worried about fighting Windu. 

He might not be quite as good as Windu, but he is quite definitely in the same league, skillwise.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 30, 2009)

TWF said:


> Dooku was able to use the dark side of the Force to make him fight as if he was still in the peak of his prime.



Well clearly, but what about without using the Dark Side?



Darth Ruin said:


> Maul could best Dooku in melee. I have no idea where people are getting the idea that Dooku was at Windu's level in dueling. That's ridiculous. Windu was the best duelist among the jedi and would have slaughtered Dooku.
> 
> That being said, Tyranus may or may not win with using mastery of the force. In an all out fight he may not get enough time to attack Maul full frontal. Keep in mind, Darth Sidious had already recognized Maul as a Sith Lord. Not as an apprentice.



The fact Dooku was able to match Windu in sparring sessions, that Dooku was able to at least keep up with Yoda for a little while and the fact he was considered one of the top three duelists along with Yoda and Windu in the Jedi Order.

Not sure if I remember this correctly but I think Dooku might've bested Windu in one of the comics...

But you're right, if nothing else Dooku's force mastery massively surpasses what Maul could do, which gives him a major edge.


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## Darth (Apr 30, 2009)

True, Dooku would have given him a fight. But Windu is the superior duelist by far.

I'm basically comparing Windu's one sided fight with Sidious to all of Dooku's fights.


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## Kinjishi (Apr 30, 2009)

Darth Ruin said:


> nah.. just kidding. that's flawed logic anyway. Still, Maul has a double bladed lightsaber and is probably the most proficient duelist among the Sith. So in a straight on fight I think he could take Tyranus.



Dooku was considered one of the best lightsaber duelists in history, on equal footing with Yoda.


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## Darth (Apr 30, 2009)

^I think that's been stated like ten times in this thread thank you.

Although I haven't read much about Dooku so could someone tell me in which books he's so highly regarded?


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## Kinjishi (Apr 30, 2009)

Darth Ruin said:


> True, Dooku would have given him a fight. But Windu is the superior duelist by far.
> 
> I'm basically comparing Windu's one sided fight with Sidious to all of Dooku's fights.



There are only two people who have ever bested Mace Windu in lightsaber sparring. One of them is Yoda. The other one is......................Dooku.

Maul is completely outmatched.


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## Aokiji (Apr 30, 2009)

Darth Ruin said:


> Maul could best Dooku in melee. I have no idea where people are getting the idea that Dooku was at Windu's level in dueling. That's ridiculous. *Windu was the best duelist among the jedi and would have slaughtered Dooku.
> *
> That being said, Tyranus may or may not win with using mastery of the force. In an all out fight he may not get enough time to attack Maul full frontal. Keep in mind, Darth Sidious had already recognized Maul as a Sith Lord. Not as an apprentice.



Wut?



Darth Ruin said:


> True, Dooku would have given him a fight. But Windu is the superior duelist by far.
> 
> I'm basically comparing Windu's one sided fight with Sidious to all of Dooku's fights.



Wasn't Sidious rusty as hell and didn't even try to kill him?


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## Sazabi24 (Apr 30, 2009)

Sidious only "lost" because he wanted Anakin to fully embrace the Dark side by making Anakin be involved in the murder of a Jedi.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 30, 2009)

There's pretty good proof for both sides, that Sidious let Windu win, and that Windu legitimately had Sidious cornered.
And didn't Dooku beat Windu _before_ he developed Vaapad? That would definitely count for something. Dooku still beats Maul though.


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## Darth (Apr 30, 2009)

sazabi24 said:


> Sidious only "lost" because he wanted Anakin to fully embrace the Dark side by making Anakin be involved in the murder of a Jedi.


So Sidious was prepared to pay the price of suffering from his own force lightning? I doubt it. Sidious even killed off Windu in the end. He did not lose on purpose.

Face it, Windu's just way stronger than Sidious.


skiboydoggy said:


> There's pretty good proof for both sides, that Sidious let Windu win, and that Windu legitimately had Sidious cornered.
> And didn't Dooku beat Windu _before_ he developed Vaapad? That would definitely count for something. Dooku still beats Maul though.



Someone give me a source that says Dooku beat Windu in an all out fight cause I don't believe it.


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## Kinjishi (Apr 30, 2009)

Darth Ruin said:


> Someone give me a source that says Dooku beat Windu in an all out fight cause I don't believe it.



They never had a real, battle to the death, confrontation.

However, facts are, only two individuals have ever out sparred Windu...Yoda and Dooku.


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## Estrecca (Apr 30, 2009)

rocklee0036 said:


> They never had a real, battle to the death, confrontation.



Yes, they did. Link to the relevant scans are in my previous post. Essentially, Windu, Kenobi and Skywalker, plus a bunch of other Jedi invade a Separatist planet and encounter Grievous, Ventress and Dooku. 

Windu tries to arrest Dooku and both of them exchange maybe half a dozen blows without either having the upper hand, before a couple of Magnadroids blindside Windu and throw him down a crater, allowing Dooku and Grievous to escape from the planet.


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## Kinjishi (Apr 30, 2009)

Estrecca said:


> Yes, they did. Link to the relevant scans are in my previous post. Essentially, Windu, Kenobi and Skywalker, plus a bunch of other Jedi invade a Separatist planet and encounter Grievous, Ventress and Dooku.
> 
> Windu tries to arrest Dooku and both of them exchange maybe half a dozen blows without either having the upper hand, before a couple of Magnadroids blindside Windu and throw him down a crater, allowing Dooku and Grievous to escape from the planet.



They never had a *real, battle to the death,* confrontation.


Actually look at the scan you provided. I have no idea where you get a half dozen blows. The confrontation consisted of a single strike and parry. If you think this constitutes a real fight, then you are sadly mistaken.


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## Darth (Apr 30, 2009)

rocklee0036 said:


> However, facts are, only two individuals have ever out sparred Windu...Yoda and Dooku.



What's your source?


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## Kinjishi (Apr 30, 2009)

_The New Essential Guide to Characters_ and the novel _Yoda: Dark Rendezvous_


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## Genyosai (Apr 30, 2009)

I think their styles are important here. The way in which Dooku's finesse based style using the curved hilt for precise parrying counters the furious double bladed style of Maul would be interesting and it's possible Dooku had not fought it before.

Is it possible that Maul can simply overwhelm Dooku if he doesn't use the force and Maul's style has an advantage?


My gut says Dooku is more likely to win since he's a more powerful Sith, but you have to consider their fighting styles in a straight up duel.


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## Fang (Apr 30, 2009)

Darth Ruin said:


> So Sidious was prepared to pay the price of suffering from his own force lightning? I doubt it. Sidious even killed off Windu in the end. He did not lose on purpose.
> 
> Face it, Windu's just way stronger than Sidious.



" Hi I'm a Sith Lord "

" I'm going to tell the Jedi Council on you "

" That's cool, don't forget my offer though "

He was fully prepared to gamble everything that he did for decades as a Sith Lord, including being revealed to Windu and Yoda by a prospective Sith Apprentice because Anakin was the Choose One.



> Someone give me a source that says Dooku beat Windu in an all out fight cause I don't believe it.



They routinely stalemated each other when Dooku was still a Jedi Master, Jinn as well was stated to be the best duelist one of the training lightsaber masters seen in over 400 years. Jinn routinely was a match for Windu as the guides poitn out, and he was over 20 years Windu's senior. And that's Windu with Vaapad and Shatterpoints as specific abilities.


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## Hellspawn28 (Apr 30, 2009)

I think Tyranus would win since he beat both Obi-wan and Anakin with little difficulty, and held his own against Yoda for awhile. Maul got his ass whipped by Obi-wan alone from I can remember from Episode I.


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## Deleted member 45015 (May 1, 2009)

It's true that Maul jobbed to Padawan Obi-Wan thanks to PIS and CIS in equal amounts, but even discounting that Tyrannus was _at least_ Mace Windu's equal. 

At least.

That puts him in good stead for handling Maul.


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## Genyosai (May 1, 2009)

The fact that Maul essentially owned Obi Wan and Qui Gon Jinn until he had a retard moment because he forgot that people could use the force to jump puts him quite high in my skills estimation.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

Darth Ruin said:


> Face it, Windu's just way stronger than Sidious.



How the hell can you say something like that? Kinda hard to beat someone using your own power against you... Windu is hax, shatterpoint and vaapad together is almost impossible to beat. I wouldn't really call winning with them skill. I honestly found Yoda far more impressive.


Dooku stomps Maul sadly, too bad to cause Maul is way cooler.


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## Arakasi (May 1, 2009)

Maul wins.

Dooku seems to have a legit weakness concerning more athletic, young berserkers. And I'd estimate their saber skill is roughly equal.


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## Fang (May 1, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> Maul wins.
> 
> Dooku seems to have a legit weakness concerning more athletic, young berserkers. And I'd estimate their saber skill is roughly equal.





I've already covered the fact that he uses the Force to make himself fight on par with Jedi over thirty years younger than him.


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 1, 2009)

Plus Maul shouldn't be even nearly as powerful as Anakin


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## Arakasi (May 1, 2009)

TWF said:


> I've already covered the fact that he uses the Force to make himself fight on par with Jedi over thirty years younger than him.





Riiiight and Berserker Anakin didn't totally wtfpwn Dooku. Maul is a fucking combat beast: he was trained from childhood by _Palpatine_ to kill jedi, he curbstomped Jinn and Kenobi, and his physical prowess (endurance, mainly) makes him a horrible matchup for Dooku.

It would be a good matchup, but Maul would eventually tire out the Count.

EDIT: Clarification.


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## Fang (May 1, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> Riiiight and Berserker Anakin didn't totally wtfpwn Dooku. Maul is a fucking combat beast: he was trained from childhood by _Palpatine_ to kill jedi, he curbstomped Jinn and Kenobi, and his physicality(endurance, mainly) makes him a horrible matchup for Dooku.
> 
> It would be a good matchup, but Maul would eventually tire out the Count.



He never curbstomped Jinn or Obi-Wan, he went by the divide and conqueror tactics. Knocking off Obi-Wan off the platform so he could concentrate on Jinn, who Sidious told him was one of the more powerful Jedi Masters in the Jedi Order.

Maul isn't even close to Clone Wars Anakin, much less Dooku's level by RoTS.

And Dooku is a master who could constantly match with Windu.

So your argument of tiring out Dooku evaporates when within a few minutes of the match up Maul finds himself armless.


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## Arakasi (May 1, 2009)

TWF said:


> He never curbstomped Jinn or Obi-Wan, he went by the divide and conqueror tactics. Knocking off Obi-Wan off the platform so he could concentrate on Jinn, who Sidious told him was one of the more powerful Jedi Masters in the Jedi Order.



He was able to tactically out manuever and defeat a perfectly coordinated top-flight jedi master and his prodigy apprentice. Even if it was using the laser wall plot device it's still very impressive.



> Maul isn't even close to Clone Wars Anakin, much less Dooku's level by RoTS.



I believe he is, not in Force Powers certainly, but in pure combat he is a beast.



> And Dooku is a master who could constantly match with Windu.



They never had a legitimate balls to the wall duel, and I don't think Mace had developed Vaapad, yet. This seems like a very weak point.



> So your argument of tiring out Dooku evaporates when within a few minutes of the match up Maul finds himself armless.



Maul-- a young Zabrak Sith lord in his physical prime who has showcased both exemplary skill and endurance
Dooku-- a 80 year old man who while very skilled still has limits.


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 1, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> I believe he is, not in Force Powers certainly, but in pure combat he is a beast.



Which honestly doesn't matter since Anakin fuels his melee prowess with the Force, which allowed him to destroy Dooku

Maul absolutely can't do the same since he isn't even close to Anakin's league in raw power


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 1, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> He was able to tactically out manuever and defeat a perfectly coordinated top-flight jedi master and his prodigy apprentice. Even if it was using the laser wall plot device it's still very impressive.



Qui-Gon at that point has lost his edge and isn't in his prime anymore


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> Riiiight and Berserker Anakin didn't totally wtfpwn Dooku.



FYI, Dooku wasn't fighting entirely serious on the Invisible Hand. Infact he thought he was supposed to surrender before the duel was over.


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## Arakasi (May 1, 2009)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Which honestly doesn't matter since Anakin fuels his melee prowess with the Force, which allowed him to destroy Dooku
> 
> Maul absolutely can't do the same since he isn't even close to Anakin's league in raw power



Good point, I agree that Maul gets owned in the Force Department. I just think that his inherent physical prowess and fighting style are terrible matchups for the aging Sith. After all we've seen how ligthsabers render lightning moot, and I don't think that Dooku would have time to start throwing shit at Maul.



Crimson Dragoon said:


> Qui-Gon at that point has lost his edge and isn't in his prime anymore



If this is true for Jinn, wouldn't it be doubly true for the Count.



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> FYI, Dooku wasn't fighting entirely serious on the Invisible Hand. Infact he thought he was supposed to surrender before the duel was over.



I've read ROTS, and IIRC when Dooku _did_ get serious near the end he still got raped.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> If this is true for Jinn, wouldn't it be doubly true for the Count.



No. It's easier to draw on the Dark Side for strength, it even makes you stronger. Dooku having more force ability than Maul would be able to fight at a high level for a longer time than Jinn.



> I've read ROTS, and IIRC when Dooku did get serious near the end he still got raped.



You mean after he already lost the upper hand from being baited into playing around? Kinda late to recover then...


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## Fang (May 1, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> He was able to tactically out manuever and defeat a perfectly coordinated top-flight jedi master and his prodigy apprentice. Even if it was using the laser wall plot device it's still very impressive.



No it isn't.



> I believe he is, not in Force Powers certainly, but in pure combat he is a beast.



He's outclassed completely in dueling skills. Dooku trained Jinn, Jinn routinely matched Windu who had Vaapad before he even had a Padawan when working Sora Bulq; same Windu is twenty-years a junior to Jinn. Dooku matches Windu as well.



> They never had a legitimate balls to the wall duel, and I don't think Mace had developed Vaapad, yet. This seems like a very weak point.



Windu had Vaapad already. 



> Maul-- a young Zabrak Sith lord in his physical prime who has showcased both exemplary skill and endurance
> Dooku-- a 80 year old man who while very skilled still has limits.



Let's see, Anakin and Obi-Wan at this point in the Clone Wars were matching Grievous and Ventress constantly, who are better than Maul. Dooku whose leagues above them, and Anakin only winning due to the dark side helping him overpower Dooku at the end of their fight.

And when Dooku got serious, Obi-Wan got removed from the fight for the duration of Anakin vs Tyranus.


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## Arakasi (May 1, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> No. It's easier to draw on the Dark Side for strength, it even makes you stronger. Dooku having more force ability than Maul would be able to fight at a high level for a longer time than Jinn.



The Darkside has more applications for combat, yes. Though I still think that Old man Dooku would begin to tire way before Maul, and since their skill level is roughly equal it's the deciding factor in my opinion.



> You mean after he already lost the upper hand from being baited into playing around? Kinda late to recover then...



It has been a _long_ time since I read the book, so you are probably right. Though if Anakin could bait Dooku, who is to say that Maul couldn't doo the same.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 1, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> The Darkside has more applications for combat, yes. Though I still think that Old man Dooku would begin to tire way before Maul, and since their skill level is roughly equal it's the deciding factor in my opinion.


They don't tire as long as they can call upon the force fast enough. Dark Side refules at a much faster rate. Once they stop they sure as hell feel it but not until then.





> It has been a _long_ time since I read the book, so you are probably right. Though if Anakin could bait Dooku, who is to say that Maul couldn't doo the same.


Palpatine baited him. Dooku thought it was only a test for Anakin and by the time he realized he had to fight serious it was to late to matter.


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## Fang (May 1, 2009)

Dooku used the dark side of the Force to cure himself of a cancer.


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## Arakasi (May 1, 2009)

TWF said:


> No it isn't.



Yes it is



> He's outclassed completely in dueling skills. Dooku trained Jinn, Jinn routinely matched Windu who had Vaapad before he even had a Padawan when working Sora Bulq; same Windu is twenty-years a junior to Jinn. Dooku matches Windu as well.



Dooku trained the guy Maul pwned. The contests that Dooku had with Jinn and Windu were sparring... big whoop. Maul 'almost' killed Palpatine, in a sparring match. I concede the Vaapad point, as I was largely unsure of the time frame in which he had it... though I doubt he would use it in a friendly duel since it is so dangerous.



> Let's see, Anakin and Obi-Wan at this point in the Clone Wars were matching Grievous and Ventress constantly, who are better than Maul. Dooku whose leagues above them, and Anakin only winning due to the dark side helping him overpower Dooku at the end of their fight.



 Assajj is _nowhere_ near as good as Maul, and Grievious is really over hyped. Maul would decimate either of them, quickly. Dooku still lost to a physically superior dark side wielding opponent, I would go so far to say that Maul was probably the equal of DS Anakin at that point due to his experience with and whole hearted accdeptance of the darkside. 



> And when Dooku got serious, Obi-Wan got removed from the fight for the duration of Anakin vs Tyranus.



I'd give Maul the edge over Obi Wan too.


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## Fang (May 1, 2009)

Arakasi said:


> Yes it is



No it really isn't. The fact that Maul felt uncomfortable taking on a sixty+ pushing years old Jedi Master and a Padawan without dividing them is reason enough.




> Dooku trained the guy Maul pwned. The contests that Dooku had with Jinn and Windu were sparring... big whoop. Maul 'almost' killed Palpatine, in a sparring match. I concede the Vaapad point, as I was largely unsure of the time frame in which he had it... though I doubt he would use it in a friendly duel since it is so dangerous.



Maul never "almost" killed Sidious. We know that Sidious was specifically goading Maul to see how far he would take to his rage in the dark side to test him even further. Sparring matches do mean a lot since we're talking about skill here.

And again Jinn's age played a huge part in this. And Windu doesn't change styles so its unlikely that he wouldn't use his trademark style of combat.



> Assajj is _nowhere_ near as good as Maul, and Grievious is really over hyped. Maul would decimate either of them, quickly. Dooku still lost to a physically superior dark side wielding opponent, I would go so far to say that Maul was probably the equal of DS Anakin at that point due to his experience with and whole hearted accdeptance of the darkside.



Unless your argument hinges on the fact that a Obi-Wan Kenobi at that point 13 years later is a helluva lot better than a Padawan back before the Clone Wars under Jinn and somehow got weaker, Asajji was viewed as a grave threat in his eyes and Anakin's.

So you are wrong here as well.

Anakin had to amplify himself with the Force and overcome a non-serious Dooku after getting countered time and time again with Obi-Wan by him before he could beat him. Maul neither has the footwork or the skill to beat Tyranus even if he had a month of preptime.



> I'd give Maul the edge over Obi Wan too.


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