# End the Debate: Minato vs. Tobirama



## AnaBanana (Oct 2, 2014)

Location: Hyperbolic Time Chamber
Distance: 100 yards
Mindset: To Kill
Knowledge: None; Manga for techniques they recognize.
Restrictions: Both are living, so no BM for Minato the Golden Boi. All else goes. Tobirama can use 3 chunin edos. 

Les end dis.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 2, 2014)

you're delusional if you think this thread will end anything. 
the same thing will be repeated over and over again. 


anyway, Minato wins low-mid difficult at most.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 2, 2014)

50/50 as usual



Hussain said:


> you're delusional if you think this thread will end anything.
> 
> anyway, Minato wins low-mid difficult at most.



Naruto die in the crossfire


----------



## Kyu (Oct 2, 2014)

Been done to death.

Edo Minato > Edo Tobirama > Living Base Minato >= Living Tobirama

/thread


----------



## LeBoyka (Oct 2, 2014)

*Minato wins high-difficulty. *

Here's a comparison:

*Physical Stats*
-----------------------
Speed:
Minato is much faster. So much so that he literally left the other kage in the dust, arriving on the battlefield a good 2 minutes ahead of them. _Tobirama even admitted he's much faster._ Tobirama also admitted Minato has faster striking speed. 

Reactions:
Tobirama wins this slightly, but not if Minato goes into Sage Mode. Minato has not perfected it, but like Jiraiya, he still gets an insane physical boost from entering the state. So in base, Tobirama has slightly better reflex feats but it all goes away if Minato goes into SM. 

Strength:
I would argue this to be a tie.

Stamina and Chakra Reserves:
Because Tobirama is a Senju, he definitely has a large reserve. But we've never seen his living form combat too much, so we don't know his exact limits. Based on feats, I'd give Minato the edge. The man fought teleported a Bijuu Bomb, beat young Obito/Tobi, summoned Gambunta, teleported himself and the 100% Kyuubi (half of which can overpower 7 tailed beasts), set up a barrier, summoned an altar, sealed half ofthe Kyuubi into Naruto, and used Reaper Death Seal all in one night. That's pretty damn impressive and I'd argue is better than what Tobirama could do while alive. Edge goes to Minato hands down. 

*Intelliegence*
----------------------------
Knowledge:
Tobirama hands down. Dude was lived a longer life and definitely has more knowledge than Minato. 

Experience:
Tobirama wins this as well, seeing that he lived in a period of constant warfare. He really shows this in the War Arc/Ten Tails Arc.

Tactics and Analytical skills:
This goes to Tobirama in a slight edge, simply because he has more feats in this category. Minato still has equally impressive feats, but more = better in this case.

*Jutsu*
--------------------
FTG:
Tobirama never once entered a battle with pre-marked kunai. Minato clearly has the advantage here, simply because he can spam his FTG more than Tobirama (due to this he also has greater tactical flexibility with this as well.). Tobirama also stated Minato was faster at using the Jutsu. Since both ninja know how to use this technique, I'd say odds of this fight being determined by FTG is very slim. 

Space-Time Barrier:
Unlike Tobirama, Minato does not have to spend energy on a clone to teleport away massive attacks. It's a more effective implementation of space time jutsu than Tobirama's. This jutsu also nullifies Tobirama's water jutsus. 

Rasengan:
I doubt Tobirama can tank a Rasengan from Minato (the same man who caused Obito's Zetsu arm to melt away.). Seeing that both men are CQC speedsters, Rasengan helps Minato gain an edge in CQC (Sword vs Rasengan = Dead swordsman). It's also faster to initiate than traditional justsu, since it is just chakra manipulation. 

Edo-Tensei:
They'd have to blow up to kill Minato. But in order to do that, they have to get near him. Simply not going to happen against a man who killed 1000 ninja (whereas Tobirama died against 20). If Tobirama were to summon a powerful shinobi, not as a bomb, but as a fighter - Minato would just use *Contract Seal* to cancel its loyalty to Tobirama. Edo-Tensei will not help Tobirama unless the Edo Tensei is Hashirama or Madara. 

Gambunta Boss Summon:
Where Minato can nullify Tobirama's long-range jutsu with ease, due to S/T Barrier, Tobirama will have to use Edo Tensei and clones just to cancel and nullify the long-range blasts from Gambunta. Not to mention I'm quite sure Gambunta can tank a few suicide bombers. What makes things worse is that Gambunta is that Gambunta can easily be protected by Minato with use of FTG. (I'd take the frog over suicide bombs, which if they miss take at least a minute to revive.). 

Reaper Death Seal:
Minato can end this with a tie. Superior Speed and Striking will allow him to eventually get Tobirama with this technique if need be. 

Sage Mode:
This would grant Minato superior speed, reactions, and strength; if Minato uses SM just for a minute or two, the fight ends in his favor easily. 


*Conclusion:*
Where Tobirama is smarter and more experienced, Minato counters with being straight up deadlier in combat. Minato's basically a better Tobirama. Tobirama's smarts aren't that far ahead of Minato, so his edge there cannot make up for the gap in other areas. Minato has better space-time techniques, better CQC techniques, physically better, better summons (he could theoretically summon more than one toad), has access to Sage Mode, and can cancel contracts while also having the ability to use RDS. He's simply deadlier than Tobirama who is basically just known for his smarts, Edo Tensei, and water jutsu. *Minato wins this High-Diff. *


----------



## Bonly (Oct 2, 2014)

IMO this comes down to being a case of who touches who first which will likely have quite a bit clones feinting attempts and using Hiraishin and using their skills in general to set up a feint. Both can do a decent job avoiding each other attacks and with each having knowledge on Hiraishin that means they know one touch might be the end or can lead to the end. I'm 50/50 on this.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 2, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Been done to death.
> 
> Edo Minato > Edo Tobirama > Living Base Minato >= Living Tobirama
> 
> /thread



alive Tobirama is more powerful that his edo self, and therefor your post makes no sense. U_U


----------



## Kyu (Oct 2, 2014)

The gap between Edo & alive Tobi is insignificant.

Edo Tobirama has regeneration + a near endless supply of chakra. 

He's tougher to fight overall.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 2, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Edo Tobirama has regeneration + a near endless supply of chakra.
> 
> Try again.



so I suspect edo part 1 Hashirama is stronger than the real Hashirama because he had those. Good. U_U

anyway, you're wrong because the manga said so, and Tobirama himself who stated that. But if that makes you feel better, I guess it's alright. =ر


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 2, 2014)

Hussain said:


> so I suspect edo part 1 Hashirama is stronger than the real Hashirama because he had those. Good. U_U
> 
> anyway, you're wrong because the manga said so, and Tobirama himself who stated that. But if that makes you feel better, I guess it's alright. =ر



I don't think you getting that Tobirama can spam his explosive tag jutsu as a Edo.


----------



## Ruse (Oct 2, 2014)

Could go either way


----------



## Trojan (Oct 2, 2014)

> I don't think you getting that Tobirama can spam his explosive tag jutsu as a Edo.



Well, if he decided to go full retard and use that, I bet he will have a good time being sealed all over again.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 2, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Well, if he decided to go full retard and use that, I bet he will have a good time being sealed all over again.



Tobirama just has to grap Minato's arm and it's GG


----------



## Kyu (Oct 2, 2014)

> so I suspect edo part 1 Hashirama is stronger than the real Hashirama because he had those. Good. U_U



There's sharper reactions/reflexes, Wood Dragon, Wood Golem, Sage Mode & SS setting Hashirama leagues above his shitty part one incarnation.

So no.



> -snip-



Most non-God/Top tiers under normal circumstances would find a zombie with unlimited stamina & regeneration a bigger challenge than a living shinobi who's stronger by a small margin & still bound by things such as fatigue and vulnerability.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 2, 2014)

Kyu said:


> There's sharper reactions/reflexes Wood Dragon, Wood Golem, Sage Mode & SS setting Hashirama leagues above his shitty part one incarnation.
> 
> 
> 
> Most non-God/Top tiers under normal circumstances would find a zombie with endless stamina & regeneration a bigger challenge than a living shinobi who's stronger by a small margin & still bound by things such as fatigue and vulnerable organs.



- Good, so having the regenerating and the chakra does not make for that, and therefore the manga is right and you're wrong. U_U

- and that is your opinion. 
cuz I'm sure Deidara, Sasori, Hanzo...etc will have to disagree.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Oct 2, 2014)

The manga isn't right, Hussain. The manga isn't a living entity, it is a comic book wrote and drawn by Kishimoto.

Dialogue is subjective to debate, just as feats are, along with the author's intention.

Tobirama suggesting he was brought back slightly weaker than his full power doesn't mean that his Edo self is weaker overall, it simply means as an Edo he was revived at less power.

The benefits of unlimited chakra, unlimited physical stamina, no injury or fatal risk clearly make certain ninja more useful and powerful than their living selves. 



> Minato wins high-difficulty.
> 
> Here's a comparison:
> 
> ...


Minato is not much faster than Tobirama, if at all. Tobirama reacted to Jubito and SM Madara in close quarters, KCM Minato failed to successfully blitz Black Zetsu from 10 meters. 

That is a disgustingly bad feat. Black Zetsu was shit on by Chojuro's energy blade. And that was KCM Minato, not Base Minato.

Tobirama, as an Edo, has better speed feats than Base living Minato. 

Reacting to Jubito > Reacting to V2 Ei at last split second (nose touch) while Ei blitzed from over 10m+
Reacting to Living SM 1-Rinnegan Hashidara from under 1m away >= Reacting to V2 Ei at last split second (nose touch) while Ei blitzed from over 10m+


----------



## Trojan (Oct 2, 2014)

^
the manga is not living thing, but kishi is. 

anyway, this we will get in a loop either way. The thing is, we know as a fact that Minato is superior to Tobirama from their feats, hype, and portrayal. 

Minato > A/B > Kin/gin > Tobirama.



> Reacting to Jubito > Reacting to V2 Ei at last split second (nose touch) while Ei blitzed from over 10m+



Reacting to 8th gate Gai > losing an arm to full power Obito > Reacting to mindless obito with no control by losing half of your body.



> KCM Minato failed to successfully blitz Black Zetsu from 10 meters.



BZ who countered Sasuke and Naruto who blitzed JJ madara. 
difficulty
difficulty

miserable indeed. 



> That is a disgustingly bad feat. Black Zetsu was shit on by Chojuro's energy blade. And that was KCM Minato, not Base Minato.


and since you think Edo Tobirama is superior to alive Tobirama, he's death against Kin/gin are disgustingly awful since Darui shat on them.
do you agree that Tobirama is below Darui's level?



> Reacting to Living SM 1-Rinnegan Hashidara from under 1m away >= Reacting to V2 Ei at last split second (nose touch) while Ei blitzed from over 10m+



reacting to 8th Gate Gai > getting you ass beaten by Juubi-less madara.
The thing is Tobirama ALWAYS faced the weaker enemy, other than that Minato who face the superior one. 

and Tobirama ALWAYS get his ass beaten worst.


----------



## Monster (Oct 2, 2014)

Tobirama for sure. He has more swag.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Oct 2, 2014)

Edo Minato > Tobirama >= Minato


----------



## JuicyG (Oct 2, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Been done to death.
> 
> Edo Minato > Edo Tobirama > Living Base Minato >= Living Tobirama
> 
> /thread



Agreed.

The arguments going for Tobirama always boils down to his "_superior intelligence_" which is actually very stupid. Minato himself was a genius and people tend to forget that



ThatBlackGuy said:


> Could go either way




Tobirama = Lesser verison of Minato who died by 20 jounins


----------



## Veracity (Oct 2, 2014)

EDO Minato > Tobirama > Alive Minato


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 2, 2014)

Tobirama is inferior to minato in speed and ftg usage..and he knows it himself.

Minato comes out on top eventually due to being faster.


----------



## RedChidori (Oct 2, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> *Minato wins high-difficulty. *
> 
> Here's a comparison:
> 
> ...



ALLLLL this shit here .


----------



## ARGUS (Oct 2, 2014)

Tobirama wins this under these conditions 

 - he has 3 edos that give him more than enough firepower to blow out minatos summons with GKF and also have the AOE to bypass minatos range of FTG 

 - regardless of minatos superiority over shunshin and diversity over of FTG, it is still irrelevant since tobirama has the same FTG (instantaneous teleportation) an and also has comparable shunshin to be able to react to minatos shunshi, not that it matters since minato simply lacks the AOE to bypass his FTG therefore minatos kunai varieties don't play much of a factor here 

 - tobiramas reflexes and reaction feats are also superior to minatos seeing how he tagged juubito 5 times something whch even KCM Minato failed to do so. Therefore there is no reason to believe that base minato could even reacti to Juubitos shunshin, when he was nigh blitzed by Ay (someone who is much slower) 

 - with superior reflexes and striking speed tobirama can land a blow before minato and place a mark or once FTG is bypassed tobirama can then blow him up with GKF 

 - the more the battle prolongs the more the chances of your tobirama winning due to his superior reserves


----------



## JuicyG (Oct 2, 2014)

Alive versions they are more or less equal. But Minato reaches higher levels with BM

So overall Minato is stronger


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> you're delusional if you think this thread will end anything.
> the same thing will be repeated over and over again.
> 
> 
> anyway, Minato wins low-mid difficult at most.



Minato dies. 

BM Minato did nothing to Juubito while Tobirama put a teleportation formula and several explosive tags on him. Base Minato is even slower than BM Minato.

Minato is superior to Tobirama only in one thing -  Hiraishin. In other areas, including combat speed, Tobirama is better.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 12, 2014)

shunshin speed
space time ninjutsu

^^^
Both characters specialize in these two things and is their main style of fighting.

Minato surpasses Tobirama in both these aspects. It's a no brainer on who wins.

Always love the desperate attempts to give tobirama made up edos that he's never displayed. Considering all edos require various preparation, sacrifices and dna. Not to mention that his level of edo tensei is lower than even part 1 orochimaru. There isn't a single thing about tobiramas edo tensei, yet people try to use it here. Not that it matters, since GK isn't landing on minato. Minato already canonically ftg'd away from this. Required Hashirama to restrain juubito for this jutsu to work. Old slow ass Hiruzen out ran the explosion on foot -______- lol.

Tobirama having greater reflexes - desperate made up BS. Fanfic made up by a small number of irrelevant people. Something kishi himself would laugh at. He made it pretty clear who the faster of the two is, yet he makes one have faster reactions? That just negates the whole concept of being the fastest ninja. When I see kishi write that rubbish himself, is the day I'll believe such bull.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

> Tobirama having greater reflexes - desperate made up BS. Fanfic made up by a small number of irrelevant people. Something kishi himself would laugh at. He made it pretty clear who the faster of the two is, yet he makes one have faster reactions? That just negates the whole concept of being the fastest ninja. When I see kishi write that rubbish himself, is the day I'll believe such bull.



And when i see Kishi write that Minato is, overall, the fastest shinobi ever, with the fastest speed and reactions, is the day i'll believe such a thing. Because, until this moment, the only 2 things Minato has that are superior to those of Tobirama are Shunshin and space-time ninjutsu. Thats all. Tobirama was faster than BM Minato.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 13, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> The manga isn't right, Hussain. The manga isn't a living entity, it is a comic book wrote and drawn by Kishimoto.
> 
> Dialogue is subjective to debate, just as feats are, along with the author's intention.
> 
> ...



Tobirama barely managed to get a tag on juubito while he was out of control and mindless and was obliterated in the process......minatos managed to put a marker hundreds of miles away in the sea put markers around the juubi teleported the juubidama all while no one could register his presence while tobirama while doing none of these feats still arrived much later while making a beeline to the battlefield......tobirama did a surprise ftg attack on sm madara from behind and was outclassed in cqc...this is the same madara who was getting edged in cqc by an inexperienced ems sasuke....tobirama used ftg to position himself in blindspots avoiding doujutsu precog and still could not manage to land one touch...


----------



## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

Minato should win. He is faster and has better hiraishin,and these are their main aspects. Also he has better close combat jutsu (rasengan). Simple explosion wont catch him if hiraishin markings are on the battlefield,especially with knowledge on ET suicide bomb and its mechanics. So the only way for Tobirama to win is to fight him in the cave/enclosed area,with limited space for markings/kunai. But he ll die in explosion too likely.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Tobirama barely managed to get a tag on juubito while he was out of control and mindless and was obliterated in the process......minatos managed to put a marker hundreds of miles away in the sea put markers around the juubi teleported the juubidama all while no one could register his presence while tobirama while doing none of these feats still arrived much later while making a beeline to the battlefield......tobirama did a surprise ftg attack on sm madara from behind and was outclassed in cqc...this is the same madara who was getting edged in cqc by an inexperienced ems sasuke....tobirama used ftg to position himself in blindspots avoiding doujutsu precog and still could not manage to land one touch...



Tobirama put explocive tags and teleportation formula on Juubito, while BM Minato did nothing and lost his arm to Juubito. And that was *BM* Minato. Tobirama is faster than Minato. Its as simple as that, fanboy. 

Ok, he put those markers. So what? is it a feat at all, when Kage's planned all of that? Minato loves to put teleportation formulas* before* battle starts.

And LOL, what a fanboism. He teleported Juubi Bomb that was already *slowed down drastically* by 8 Tails. Get your facts straight. 

And his early arrival on battlefield proves nothing. His Hiraishin is the fastest. And so, his travel speed is faster than that of Tobirama. But Tobirama's combat speed and reaction speed are still faster, since* he has better feats*.

You forget that Madara didnt want to beat and kill Sasuke. He wanted Sasuke to be his partner, or puppet so he can use Sasuke. It is clear when you actually *read the manga*, or *watch anime*. They had a dialogue about that. Madara wasnt all out with Sasuke at all, he was toying with him.

You also forget the fact that Tobirama dodged Madara's counter attack. Or you just ignore it, i dont know.

And i dont know if you will reply to me. You are too fanboish, too biased and you dont care about *facts* and* feats*. Thats all.

As for this fight, Tobirama *has clearly better combat speed and reaction speed*. And thats one of the reasons why Tobirama is superior to Minato.


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 13, 2014)

Minato probably wins as he perfected what Tobirama invented.

Though Tobirama with ET is clearly superior. As long as he summons a few kage level shinobi(and not weaklings) that is.

He seems to be smarter than Minato too.

Still, Minato is his successor in terms of fighting style. And an example of old generations surpassing the old one.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Minato probably wins as he perfected what Tobirama invented.
> 
> Though Tobirama with ET is clearly superior. As long as he summons a few kage level shinobi(and not weaklings) that is.
> 
> ...



Tobirama has faster combat speed, faster reaction speed and is smarter than Minato.


----------



## Cognitios (Dec 13, 2014)

The argument that Tobirama was defeated by 20 jonins is nonsense.

"Pein got defeated by one genin LOLOLOL he must suck"


----------



## Amol (Dec 13, 2014)

Minato wins with extreme diff.
Minato just can't blitz Tobirama .
It would be a tough battle.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 13, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Minato probably wins as he perfected what Tobirama invented.
> 
> Though Tobirama with ET is clearly superior. As long as he summons a few kage level shinobi(and not weaklings) that is.
> 
> ...



You realise his Edo Tensei is of a level lower than part 1 orochimaru's.

And old Hiruzen battled both Hashirama and Tobirama and held his own. So who could Tobirama possibly summon that is even remotely close to the same level as himself and his brother. Not possible. And even if he could, his edos would be weaker than part 1 orochimaru, they'd basically be fodder academy level mindless zombie. Not even Tenten level.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 13, 2014)

This is a bit difficult because of the way Kishi retconned pretty much all the power levels multiple times during the manga.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

Tobirama is suprior to Minato. It has been proven already.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Dec 13, 2014)

After having re-read this friggin' fight, Tobirama was at least equal in hiraishin usage to KCM Minato.  KCM mode should have given Minato a significant boost in reflexes, so without it, Tobirama should be more reflexive.

Note that Minato does have a better basic shunshin than Minato, but when both parties can teleport at will, basic shunshin distance means almost nothing, and reflexes mean almost everything.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 13, 2014)

There has never been an actual debate on who is stronger. Minato is clearly better than Tobirama in almost all facets. The only people who claim otherwise are simply trolls or fanboys. 

This is coming from an unbiased Uchiha fan.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> There has never been an actual debate on who is stronger. Minato is clearly better than Tobirama is almost all facets. The only people who claim otherwise are simply trolls or fanboys.
> 
> This is coming from an unbiased Uchiha fan.



Thos "trolls" and "fanboys' bring feats to prove they are right. Tobirama is faster than Minato and thats why he is superior to him. Because he has better feats.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 13, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> After having re-read this friggin' fight, Tobirama was at least equal in hiraishin usage to KCM Minato.  KCM mode should have given Minato a significant boost in reflexes, so without it, Tobirama should be more reflexive.
> 
> Note that Minato does have a better basic shunshin than Minato, but when both parties can teleport at will, basic shunshin distance means almost nothing, and reflexes mean almost everything.



KCM doesn't improve your reflexes, that's fanfic. Never once was that ever stated or indicated in the manga. All it does is boost your foot speed. KCM Naruto was getting kicked in the face by Han, and smacked around by the other Jinchuuriki, Tobi was also still superior to Naruto in close quarter combat. Sage mode gives Naruto better reflexes and better perception ability, allowing him to sense danger faster and react better. Naruto even stated that sage mode is better in this regard.

They aren't equal in hiraishin in the slightest either, the 4th databook makes that very clear on multiple occasions. Evidence by the fact that minato was the one who had to prepare all the markings, make the most saves and having to allow Tobirama to link himself with minato, in order to provide him access with his hiraishin link. Only reason minato may have looked slightly inferior is due to the handicap of having 1 arm. Before minato lost his arm, Tobirama was giving him all the praise and minato was performing well. Unless people actually think 1 arm minato should be equal to Tobirama, then thats quite the compliment to minato then.

Tobirama cannot teleport at will, quite the misconception. In a battle between the 2, minato comes fully prepared with dozens of FTG kunai. Which he spreads across the battlefield. Tobiramas usage of FTG is only ever handling at max one FTG kunai. That's where the major difference between the two is. Minato overwhelms him in combat because of this, creating various attack and escape options.  Minato can literally come from any side, which Tobirama cannot react to.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 13, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Thos "trolls" and "fanboys' bring feats to prove they are right. Tobirama *is faster than Minato* and thats why he is superior to him. Because he has better feats.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> KCM doesn't improve your reflexes, that's fanfic. Never once was that ever stated or indicated in the manga. All it does is boost your foot speed. KCM Naruto was getting kicked in the face by Han, and smacked around by the other Jinchuuriki, Tobi was also still superior to Naruto in close quarter combat. Sage mode gives Naruto better reflexes and better perception ability, allowing him to sense danger faster and react better. Naruto even stated that sage mode is better in this regard.
> 
> They aren't equal in hiraishin in the slightest either, the 4th databook makes that very clear on multiple occasions. Evidence by the fact that minato was the one who had to prepare all the markings, make the most saves and having to allow Tobirama to link himself with minato, in order to provide him access with his hiraishin link. Only reason minato may have looked slightly inferior is due to the handicap of having 1 arm. Before minato lost his arm, Tobirama was giving him all the praise and minato was performing well. Unless people actually think 1 arm minato should be equal to Tobirama, then thats quite the compliment to minato then.
> 
> Tobirama cannot teleport at will, quite the misconception. In a battle between the 2, minato comes fully prepared with dozens of FTG kunai. Which he spreads across the battlefield. Tobiramas usage of FTG is only ever handling at max one FTG kunai. That's where the major difference between the two is. Minato overwhelms him in combat because of this, creating various attack and escape options.  Minato can literally come from any side, which Tobirama cannot react to.



There is a major difference between the two in combat speed and reaction speed. Tobirama is faster than BM Minato and he knows about his Hiraishin, since he created that technique. Thats why Tobirama is superior to base Minato.

*Elite Uchiha*, i'll give you example. BM Minato did nothing to Juubito when he had confrontation with him. He did nothing, got himself beaten easily and lost his arm. Tobirama, on the other hand, put a FTG formula and explosive tags on Juubito. 

Comment that, please.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 13, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> There is a major difference between the two in combat speed and reaction speed. Tobirama is faster than BM Minato and he knows about his Hiraishin, since he created that technique. Thats why Tobirama is superior to base Minato.
> 
> *Elite Uchiha*, i'll give you example. BM Minato did nothing to Juubito when he had confrontation with him. He did nothing, got himself beaten easily and lost his arm. Tobirama, on the other hand, put a FTG formula and explosive tags on Juubito.
> 
> Comment that, please.



Tobirama is not faster then Minato. He may have superior reflexes but that about it in the speed catergory


----------



## Kyu (Dec 13, 2014)

> He did nothing, got himself beaten easily and lost his arm. Tobirama, on the other hand, put a FTG formula and explosive tags on Juubito.



Minato had the misfortune of facing v2 Juubito - the one that regained his intelligence the moment Minato rushed him. Tobirama got the drop on Jew when he was stuck on stupid and unable to form a coherent sentence. 

Hardly a fair comparison.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 13, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Minato had the misfortune of facing v2 Juubito - the one that regained his intelligence the moment Minato rushed him. Tobirama got the drop on Jew tho he had to get torn in half to do so when he was stuck on stupid and unable to form a coherent sentence.
> 
> Hardly a fair comparison.



Just forgot a little something that's all.


----------



## Kyu (Dec 13, 2014)

Gracias.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 13, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Minato had the misfortune of facing v2 Juubito - the one that regained his intelligence the moment Minato rushed him. Tobirama got the drop on Jew when he was stuck on stupid and unable to form a coherent sentence.
> 
> Hardly a fair comparison.



Minato still had the capabality of pulling back the moment he recognized the change in Obito. It was his choice to continue on with the attack. 

Mindless Obito still had the capability to defend and attack in such a manor that if it wasn't for Minato he would have killed Naruto & Sasuke. The only time they tried to take advantage was when Obito was going through his change and "couldnt control his body" however those attemps failed since he attack himself forcing them to retreat and think what just happend

Ah yes one panel reading at a time


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 13, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> There is a major difference between the two in combat speed and reaction speed. Tobirama is faster than BM Minato and he knows about his Hiraishin, since he created that technique. Thats why Tobirama is superior to base Minato.
> 
> *Elite Uchiha*, i'll give you example. BM Minato did nothing to Juubito when he had confrontation with him. He did nothing, got himself beaten easily and lost his arm. Tobirama, on the other hand, put a FTG formula and explosive tags on Juubito.
> 
> Comment that, please.



Tobirama reflexes get him one paneled by Mindless Juubito

Minato reflexes get him to dodge 8 gate Gai

I rest my case.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Tobirama reflexes get him one paneled by Mindless Juubito
> 
> Minato reflexes get him to dodge 8 gate Gai
> 
> I rest my case.



Minato's reflexes get him only to react to Juubidara's Gudoudamas and thats all. And that was just a travel speed feat. I'd like to see Gudoudamas speed feats. As i remember, even Rock Lee could react to Gudoudamas.

The same Minato was manhandled by Juubidara easily, like he was a cannon fodder, while 7 Gates (!) Guy put him on a defencive. Juubidara was unable to speedblitz Guy the same way he speedblitzed SM Minato.

And BM Minato's reflexes got him one paneled by Juubito. But the difference is - Tobirama was fast enough to do something, Minato wasnt. And that was BM Minato.

I hope you'll keep dancing longer than the rest Minato fans here.


----------



## Kyu (Dec 14, 2014)

> Minato still had the capabality of pulling back the moment he recognized the change in Obito. It was his choice to continue on with the attack.


Indeed & he paid the price.

Place Tobirama in Minato's position, he loses an arm too. He never faced v2 Juubito without the luxury of having the fucker marked.



> Mindless Obito still had the capability to defend and attack-



When he wasn't spacing out, bloating up, and attacking himself, sure.

The sole reason Juubito didn't negate ET, killing Tobirama on the spot - was because he lacked the focus required to nullify ninjutsu.

Tobirama took advantage of his own immortal body & marked a mentally challenged Juubi Jinchuriki who couldn't use his powers to their full capacity. 

Minato fought a superior foe under far more unfavorable circumstances.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

Tobirama reflexes and Shunshin are superior to base Minato. His HandSpeed however is superior to KCM Minato and most likely BM Minato.


And lol @ KCM not increasing reactions. 

This pretty much throws that argument out the fucking window : dead

Most power upgrades automatically increase reactions most times in the manga.  That's manga fact at this point.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama wins this under these conditions
> 
> - he has 3 edos that give him more than enough firepower to blow out minatos summons with GKF and also have the AOE to bypass minatos range of FTG
> 
> ...



The 3 summons are casually tagged with the contract seal...they are chunnin..tobirama is not even close to the utility in ftg of minato he has shown to use 1 kunai with a ftg formula after watching minato minato carries innumerable kunai and spams markings..he is much more adept with ftg lv2....and is much more adept with kunai and his throwing speed is brilliant he was bale to throw a kunai get in sm and teleport to juubidara with a rasengan before kakashi could kamui....minato can use sm in bursts to gain a reactionary advantage over tobirama..why are u conveniently ignoring the fact that tobirama was demolished by a mindless obito and could only lay a touch on him in exchange and while obito was going berserk i doubt he was thinking of avoiding counterattacks...minato was caught offguard by a in control juubito who suddenly manifested control and calledhim sensei..the reflexive feat of tobirama of cathing the guodama that you claim makes him superior is an interception feat then i bring minatos feat of intercepting the guodama from in between a full speed 8thgate gai teleporting in cathing the kunai in his mouth getting touched by the guodama and teleporting out before 8th gate gai even moved..and minatos shunshin is vastly superior..he layed a mark 100 miles out into the sea with shunshin placed markers all around the juubi and teleported the juubidama without getting his presence registered and waited before tobirama even made it to the battlefield in a straight bee line..


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Indeed & he paid the price.
> 
> Place Tobirama in Minato's position, he loses an arm too. He never faced v2 Juubito without the luxury of having the fucker marked.
> 
> ...



Minato fought the same Juubito Tobirama fought. I dont remember anything to suggest he became faster after he lost control of his powers and regain it. He still had the same chakra, he was as fast and powerfull. 

If Tobirama was at that position, he could at least put FTG mark on Juubito. BM Minato did nothing and lost his arm. 

And Tobirama didnt realy try to dodge him. He was using an Edo fighting style he himself developed and he still was fast enough to put a FTG mark and explosives on Juubito.



> The 3 summons are casually tagged with the contract seal...they are chunnin..tobirama is not even close to the utility in ftg of minato he has shown to use 1 kunai with a ftg formula after watching minato minato carries innumerable kunai and spams markings..he is much more adept with ftg lv2....and is much more adept with kunai and his throwing speed is brilliant he was bale to throw a kunai get in sm and teleport to juubidara with a rasengan before kakashi could kamui....minato can use sm in bursts to gain a reactionary advantage over tobirama..why are u conveniently ignoring the fact that tobirama was demolished by a mindless obito and could only lay a touch on him in exchange and while obito was going berserk i doubt he was thinking of avoiding counterattacks...minato was caught offguard by a in control juubito who suddenly manifested control and calledhim sensei..the reflexive feat of tobirama of cathing the guodama that you claim makes him superior is an interception feat then i bring minatos feat of intercepting the guodama from in between a full speed 8thgate gai teleporting in cathing the kunai in his mouth getting touched by the guodama and teleporting out before 8th gate gai even moved..and minatos shunshin is vastly superior..he layed a mark 100 miles out into the sea with shunshin placed markers all around the juubi and teleported the juubidama without getting his presence registered and waited before tobirama even made it to the battlefield in a straight bee line..



First, i wanna see a proof Juubito was slower when he ofught Tobirama.

Second, i wanna see speed feats of Gudoudama. Because, as i remember, even Lee could react to them. 

Third, Minato placed marks in the ocean while preparing to battle. He likes to do that and its not a feat at all. 

Fourth, Juubidama was *slowed down* by Killer Bee. *Dractically*. Realy, how long you will ignore that? Are you trolling or what?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 14, 2014)

Minato never got his body split in half  by Mindless Obito in one panel. If you can show me one panel where  that happened, I would greatly appreciate it.

Moreover, its canon that Minato's reflexes are able to allow him to teleport in front of 8 Gate Gai and teleport out in an instant.

Keep on going in circles


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 14, 2014)

People go on about tobiramas "great superior" reflexes . Yet his so called reactions and reflexes were virtually non existent against Madara. Not only did Tobirama fail with a sneak attack, he got disarmed and was taught a serious lesson. Madara shoved like a dozen black rods into him, Tobirama didn't even lay a finger on him. Even Sasuke did better that that against that Madara. Yet people are going on about his amazing reactions, Madara wasn't even moving that fast. Compare that to v2 Ay who went ful speed on minato, he evaded, left a kunai above Ay, teleported back, and managed to slash him (made Ay look like a statue) - this is where the superiority in their hiraishin usage comes into play.

People think sacrificing an entire half of your body is some amazing feat. Put minato in the same position and he would've marked Obito as well. If it was alive Tobirama, he would've died right there, because he couldn't physically evade the speed. And that was a weaker mindless Obito. At least minato only lost an arm, he was fast enough to teleport from getting his entire body ripped in half.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Minato never got his body split in half  by Mindless Obito in one panel. If you can show me one panel where  that happened, I would greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Moreover, its canon that Minato's reflexes are able to allow him to teleport in front of 8 Gate Gai and teleport out in an instant.
> 
> Keep on going in circles



Minato was easily defeated, just like Tobirama. Yeah, his body wasnt damaged as Tobirama's body. But nevertheless, he lost his arm. And, unlike Tobirama, who put a FTG formula and explosive tags on Juubito, BM Minato did nothing at all. He just got himself beaten easily. Thats all. And keep in mind Tobirama didnt even try to dodge Juubito, since he tried to use his Kamikaze-like fighting style that he himself developed.

Minato's teleportation (travels speed) alowed him to teleport in front of 8 Gates Guy and go out of his way. It was more like travel speed, especially since there was a distance between Guy and Minato. Minato still got blitzed by Juubidara, while 7 Gates Guy was able to fight Juubidara for some time and hit him with Hirudora. 

And i'm atill waiting for you to comment the fact that Tobirama did better against Juubito than BM Minato. 

I am dissappointed. You dont dance well. Even Hussain was better. 



> People go on about tobiramas "great superior" reflexes . Yet his so called reactions and reflexes were virtually non existent against Madara. Not only did Tobirama fail with a sneak attack, he got disarmed and was taught a serious lesson. Madara shoved like a dozen black rods into him, Tobirama didn't even lay a finger on him. Even Sasuke did better that that against that Madara. Yet people are going on about his amazing reactions, Madara wasn't even moving that fast. Compare that to v2 Ay who went ful speed on minato, he evaded, left a kunai above Ay, teleported back, and managed to slash him (made Ay look like a statue) - this is where the superiority in their hiraishin usage comes into play.
> 
> People think sacrificing an entire half of your body is some amazing feat. Put minato in the same position and he would've marked Obito as well. If it was alive Tobirama, he would've died right there, because he couldn't physically evade the speed. And that was a weaker mindless Obito. At least minato only lost an arm, he was fast enough to teleport from getting his entire body ripped in half.



Its common that Minato's fans ignore a lot about their "arguements", or Minato's "great" speed feats.

First of all, Tobirama did way better against Madara than against Juubidara, who instantly took out half of his body. Tobirama didnt realy try to dodge it, but i dont think he could. And Tobirama dodged Madara's counter attack.

And dont forget Madara is clearly one of the fastest Naruto characters.

Second, Madara was toying with Sasuke. It was clear as day. Madara didnt want to kill him. He wanted Sasuke to join him. Thats why he havent blitzed him at the beginning.

*Facepalm*. Its so fanboish i cant even think of something else. Just facepalm. Young Ei was not as fast as he was in Shippuden. Ei greatly improved from his last fight with Minato. He learned Body Flicker, obtained tailed beast level chakra and i doubt young Ei's lightning armor is as fast as Kage Ei's lightning armor. Plus, it was shown how Ei was working out during his free time. It is clear young Ei isnt on Kage Ei's level.

Prove that Juubito was weaker than in his confrontation with Minato. Juubito had the same chakra and he was in control of that chakra. Prove that Juubito became faster up to his confrontation with BM Minato.

And prove BM Minato could mark Juubito if he was in Tobiramas place. From feats, it is clear BM wont be able to do that.

And alive Minato would have died as well. Because of pain loss of an arm cause he probably wont teleport away and Juubito can kill him there. Pluss, blood loss.

Also keep in mind Tobirama havent tried to dodge him - he tried to use his edo Kamikaze-style.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama reflexes and Shunshin are superior to base Minato. His HandSpeed however is superior to KCM Minato and most likely BM Minato.
> 
> 
> And lol @ KCM not increasing reactions.
> ...



Tobirama does not have better shunshin my god what are u basing this on????

One interception feat on catching the guodama and suddenly tobirama has better reflexes then i bring this interception feat..
[1]
[1]

minato yelled at him keep going so gai did not slow down he was at his fastest..minato managed to teleport in catch the kunai in his teeth waited for the guodama to touch him then teleported out before gai even moved...teleporting in reading the situation catching the kunai. yes those rely on reflexes as well as teleporting out before someone of gais speed hits u who was blitzing juubidara ..that is far superior to tobiramas feat..


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 14, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Indeed & he paid the price.
> 
> Place Tobirama in Minato's position, he loses an arm too. He never faced v2 Juubito without the luxury of having the fucker marked.



Indeed the same outcome would happen. Your previous post suggested that you can not compare the same situation which is entirely true. I was merely pointing out that it was Minatos choice to continue on with the attack after watching Tobirama get torn to pieces and Naruto/Sasuke getting wtf blitzed. 

It was his own damn fault and fuck up on his part



> When he wasn't spacing out, bloating up, and attacking himself, sure.
> 
> The sole reason Juubito didn't negate ET, killing Tobirama on the spot - was because he lacked the focus required to nullify ninjutsu.
> 
> ...



Everything you posted was true untill the last sentence. Did Tobirama not engage Juubito for the rest of the outcome of the fight? You make it sound like he took a time out or something. Tobirama was the one teleporting in and out byhimself & with naruto to attack and defend. It was Tobirama who did most of the work from that point on


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 14, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Tobirama does not have better shunshin my god what are u basing this on????
> 
> One interception feat on catching the guodama and suddenly tobirama has better reflexes then i bring this interception feat..
> this
> ...



Yeah, don't you find odd that suddenly Minato, who was almost completely blitzed by Juubito and completely blitzed, without being able to react even once while receiving two hits + the crash from Juudara, is able to perfectly react to 8th Gate Gai's speed, the same 8th Gate Gai that blitzes and ragdolls Juudara like he is nothing? And don't you find odd that in the same situation Rock Lee can throw a kunai so fast that is arrives in front of Gai, so basically if he throws a kunai that kunai should be able to travel at a speed that surpasses 8th Gate Gai's? And don't you find odd that Gaara's sand, inspite of being said to slow to keep up with the fight, could arrive, transporting Kakashi, just an instant behind 8th Gate Gai's speed, inspite of not being able to catch the fucking Jokey Boy? And don't you find odd that Juudara, everytime blitzed by Gai, became suddenly able to perfectly react to his speed, something he couldn't do before and will not be able to do later? I do. Also, Gai was in mid air, jumping with his special technique, not using his full speed. Simply, that was a situation useful to make everyone's personal skills useful to a teamwork attack on Juudara. Otherwise, you have to accept that Gaara's sand had a one-minute power up of 999 tiers in speed, and that Rock Lee can one shot high kage level ninjas with a casual kunai throwing.

But yeah, Minato's Shunshin speed should be above Tobirama's, and the latter himself said.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Yeah, don't you find odd that suddenly Minato, who was almost completely blitzed by Juubito and completely blitzed, without being able to react even once while receiving two hits + the crash from Juudara, is able to perfectly react to 8th Gate Gai's speed, the same 8th Gate Gai that blitzes and ragdolls Juudara like he is nothing? And don't you find odd that in the same situation Rock Lee can throw a kunai so fast that is arrives in front of Gai, so basically if he throws a kunai that kunai should be able to travel at a speed that surpasses 8th Gate Gai's? And don't you find odd that Gaara's sand, inspite of being said to slow to keep up with the fight, could arrive, transporting Kakashi, just an instant behind 8th Gate Gai's speed, inspite of not being able to catch the fucking Jokey Boy? And don't you find odd that Juudara, everytime blitzed by Gai, became suddenly able to perfectly react to his speed, something he couldn't do before and will not be able to do later? I do. Also, Gai was in mid air, jumping with his special technique, not using his full speed. Simply, that was a situation useful to make everyone's personal skills useful to a teamwork attack on Juudara. Otherwise, you have to accept that Gaara's sand had a one-minute power up of 999 tiers in speed, and that Rock Lee can one shot high kage level ninjas with a casual kunai throwing.
> 
> But yeah, Minato's Shunshin speed should be above Tobirama's, and the latter himself said.



He was not blitzed by juubito....juubito suddenly gained control and caught minato offguard with his sudden change..he got beat by madara because he went head on against juubimadara because of desperation and in physical speed juubidara wins .....I could literally repeat the same thing you just said for tobiramas feat ..........and gai while in mid air was blitzing madara the same...stop trying to say he slowed down he was at top velocity..and didnt make any move to slow down and he had no incentive to..the whole plan depended on it....


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 14, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Yeah, don't you find odd that suddenly Minato, who was almost completely blitzed by Juubito and completely blitzed, without being able to react even once while receiving two hits + the crash from Juudara, is able to perfectly react to 8th Gate Gai's speed, the same 8th Gate Gai that blitzes and ragdolls Juudara like he is nothing? And don't you find odd that in the same situation Rock Lee can throw a kunai so fast that is arrives in front of Gai, so basically if he throws a kunai that kunai should be able to travel at a speed that surpasses 8th Gate Gai's? And don't you find odd that Gaara's sand, inspite of being said to slow to keep up with the fight, could arrive, transporting Kakashi, just an instant behind 8th Gate Gai's speed, inspite of not being able to catch the fucking Jokey Boy? And don't you find odd that Juudara, everytime blitzed by Gai, became suddenly able to perfectly react to his speed, something he couldn't do before and will not be able to do later? I do. Also, Gai was in mid air, jumping with his special technique, not using his full speed. Simply, that was a situation useful to make everyone's personal skills useful to a teamwork attack on Juudara. Otherwise, you have to accept that Gaara's sand had a one-minute power up of 999 tiers in speed, and that Rock Lee can one shot high kage level ninjas with a casual kunai throwing.
> 
> But yeah, Minato's Shunshin speed should be above Tobirama's, and the latter himself said.


And don't you find it odd that Suigetsu was able to react faster than Sasuke and intercept v1 Ay's speed?

A lot of things don't make sense, logic is thrown out the window plenty times. Kishi likes to make characters looks good in certain situations, and many times he does this, he has to restrict another character.

So when people bang on about Tobirama intercepting a bomb that a 1 armed minato couldn't reach, and using that as their reasoning for better reactions. Yet never occurring to people that they're just reading way too deeply into things that kishi himself wasn't even trying to insinuate.

Yes minato reacted to evening elephants top speed (both the manga and databook say it was his top speed, I can even get the proof if you want, there was no slowing down)..why and how? Because kishi made it illogically possible. When minato planted 6 kunai around Juubito, why did minato run up to him instead of just directly teleport to him? You see what I'm saying, it's not to show that one character is superior to another in a certain aspect, it's just his poor way of nerfing characters to make others look good.

However, what kishi does that is clear is when he specifically makes first comparisons. For instance "fourth, you're better at teleporting than I am". "You're quick at striking too", "I can't move everyone simultaneously like you". -'all manga statements. 
"Minato improves the mastery of hiraishin no jutsu", "handles to perfection the hiraishin no jutsu", "the fourth Hokage taking this technique and pushing it even further", "the excellent jutsu was refined(minato)". - databook quotes.

So when comparisons are made, they are made clearly. However this fanfic Tobirama reflexes that people bang on about are non existent. I can read through the entire manga and databook and I won't find one statement that says anything about tobiramas reflexes and reactions, or minato ever saying "wow lord second, you're faster at reacting than me".


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 14, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> He was not blitzed by juubito....juubito suddenly gained control and caught minato offguard with his sudden change..he got beat by madara because he went head on against juubimadara because of desperation and in physical speed juubidara wins .....I could literally repeat the same thing you just said for tobiramas feat ..........and gai while in mid air was blitzing madara the same...stop trying to say he slowed down he was at top velocity..and didnt make any move to slow down and he had no incentive to..the whole plan depended on it....



He wasn't? Lol.



Juudara blitzed Minato fair and square, because he was so fast that Minato couldn't react to his hits. Easy.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. But comparing with other manga feats, it makes no sense if intended that way. What a surprise.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> And don't you find it odd that Suigetsu was able to react faster than Sasuke and intercept v1 Ay's speed?
> 
> A lot of things don't make sense, logic is thrown out the window plenty times. Kishi likes to make characters looks good in certain situations, and many times he does this, he has to restrict another character.
> 
> ...



Not at all. Sasuke was distracted by the genjutsu he had to dispel. Sasuke later moved at the same pace of V1 Ei, dodged his hit point blank, and hit him with Chidori, so no problem. And Suigetsu showed he could pace decently with that level of speed reacting and intercepting V1 Ei's speed and fighting against Darui who is as fast as V1 Ei keeping up with the Raikage right handman's speed.

It wasn't his top speed, not at all, his top speed is Night Guy, by far, where he moves so fast that his speed changes the space around him bending it. And yes I see what you're trying to see, but I don't agree, not completely anyway. Kishimoto is pretty consistent with feats, this situation is easy to read, you just have to see what is more logical instead of what you would like the most to see. For example, as a Kakashi fan I could say that near blind Kakashi can warp things with Kamui faster than 8th Gate Gai, who blitzed Juudara, can attack, but I never did and I never will (he has so many outstanding featsto prove he can one shot nearly everyone, anyway, he doesn't need a fanfiction made one   ).

And as I said, Minato's Shunshin speed > Tobirama's, as Tobirama himself commented. And for Hiraishin skills, it's clear as day that Minato's are at very least on par with Tobirama, but better if you think that he perfected the jutsu especially in versatility. For reaction/reflexes speed, it's tough to say, but Tobirama has actually better feats.

I was just addressing that one can't say that Minato's reflexes are on the level to react to 8th Gate Gai's speed and not only speed but max speed and not only react but also with ease, because this is painfully untrue and doesn't make any sense compared to every other precedent feat, and usually feats make sense in comparisons.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> He wasn't? Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato thought he was attacking an out of control obito he gauged his abilities and thought he ould take him he suddenly regained control and his abilities increased while in control caught minato offguard thats what im saying.....you are welcome to disagree though

Now regarding that tobirama feat does it make sense for tobirama who was blitzed by out of control juubito to shunshin in faster then kcm minato can ftg.. take the guodama make a clone have it use ftg so fast that he is behind v2 juubito and he slams him with the guodama before he can move...and lets not forget the fact ftg is slower with clones see that logic goes bothways.....and i believe minato using ftg defensively can react to 8th gate speeds if he does not intend on counterattacking as against madara..


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 14, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Minato was easily defeated, just like Tobirama. Yeah, his body wasnt damaged as Tobirama's body. But nevertheless, he lost his arm. And, unlike Tobirama, who put a FTG formula and explosive tags on Juubito, BM Minato did nothing at all. He just got himself beaten easily. Thats all. And keep in mind Tobirama didnt even try to dodge Juubito, since he tried to use his Kamikaze-like fighting style that he himself developed.



Tobirama literally was a non-factor during the Complete Juubito fight. He was one paneled by Mindless Juubito, who is clearly weaker than Complete Juubito. You can try to claim Tobirama and Shodai didn't try to dodge, but that is just plain bullshit 

And losing arm =/= getting your body split in half. Lets see who wakes up the next morning 




> *Minato's teleportation (travels speed) alowed him to teleport in front of 8 Gates Guy and go out of his way. It was more like travel speed, *especially since there was a distance between Guy and Minato. Minato still got blitzed by Juubidara, while 7 Gates Guy was able to fight Juubidara for some time and hit him with Hirudora.
> 
> And i'm atill waiting for you to comment the fact that Tobirama did better against Juubito than BM Minato.
> 
> I am dissappointed. You dont dance well. Even Hussain was better.



Now I am certain you have no idea what reflexes are. Until you understand that basic concept, your points are essentially moot. You literally have no idea what you are talking about, which is rather funny since most people understand the concept of reflexes. 

I am also quite disappointed in your dance skills, relative to the fact you are trying to sound educated in your posts but fail miserably.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> He was not blitzed by juubito....juubito suddenly gained control and caught minato offguard with his sudden change..he got beat by madara because he went head on against juubimadara because of desperation and in physical speed juubidara wins .....I could literally repeat the same thing you just said for tobiramas feat ..........and gai while in mid air was blitzing madara the same...stop trying to say he slowed down he was at top velocity..and didnt make any move to slow down and he had no incentive to..the whole plan depended on it....



SM Minato was clearly *blitzed*. He tried to attack, got his arm cut off and got himself blitzed with kicks. It was a *blitz*.

Guy could gather his chakra in order to make a last Evening Elephant punch powerfull enough to kill Madara, or knock him out. So he slowed down. That explains all the odd things that happened. SM Minato, on the other hand, was all out on Juubidara, but got blitzed. And you cant tell that he wasnt all out - there is no sence, no reason to suggest that. He was against Juubidara and he already gathered all chakra in his Rasengan to hit him. 



> So when comparisons are made, they are made clearly. However this fanfic Tobirama reflexes that people bang on about are non existent. I can read through the entire manga and databook and I won't find one statement that says anything about tobiramas reflexes and reactions, or minato ever saying "wow lord second, you're faster at reacting than me".



Tobirama's reflexes are canon. It is logical. Can you find a line in Databook that Minato was faster and had better reaction speed than Tobirama? At least one statement. Tobirama is a kage-level shinobi who developed Hiraishin. All his speed feats are logical and dont pull logic away at all. Minato's Hiraishin and Shunshin are faster, but he himself was slower than Tobirama. Tobirama had better reflexes.

Minato didnt say "oh, you are so fast". So what? Should he? Maybe he has such a character he dont praise people too often, or something else. 

Tobirama's combat speed and reaction speed feats are still greater than Minato's. They have logic behind them. Its allright. 



> Minato thought he was attacking an out of control obito he gauged his abilities and thought he ould take him he suddenly regained control and his abilities increased while in control caught minato offguard thats what im saying.....you are welcome to disagree though



As i remember, he had a full control of his powers before and at the moment of his fight with Minato. And i dont think Minato is stupid enough to not go all out against 10 Tails Jin or underestimate him.



> Now regarding that tobirama feat does it make sense for tobirama who was blitzed by out of control juubito to shunshin in faster then kcm minato can ftg.. take the guodama make a clone have it use ftg so fast that he is behind v2 juubito and he slams him with the guodama before he can move...and lets not forget the fact ftg is slower with clones see that logic goes bothways.....and i believe minato using ftg defensively can react to 8th gate speeds if he does not intend on counterattacking as against madara..



Tobirama didnt try to dodge Juubito. He was using kamikaze-style.

8 Gates Guy is much faster than Minato. It is obvious.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2014)

> Tobirama literally was a non-factor during the Complete Juubito fight. He was one paneled by Mindless Juubito, who is clearly weaker than Complete Juubito. You can try to claim Tobirama and Shodai didn't try to dodge, but that is just plain bullshit
> 
> And losing arm =/= getting your body split in half. Lets see who wakes up the next morning



Where are those things going from about complete and non-complete Juubito? He controlled his powers, than he lost that control, and than he regained that control. He had the same chakra all the time. 

Bullsh*t? Tobirama himself tolled he was using a style developed by him for Edo shinobi. And that style is kamikaze-like. 

The were both blitzed. They both lost their body parts. But the difference is - Tobirama was fast enough to tag Juubito with something and Minato wasnt. Add to that the fact Tobirama was using his kamikaze-style there.



> Now I am certain you have no idea what reflexes are. Until you understand that basic concept, your points are essentially moot. You literally have no idea what you are talking about, which is rather funny since most people understand the concept of reflexes.
> 
> I am also quite disappointed in your dance skills, relative to the fact you are trying to sound educated in your posts but fail miserably.



First, i wanna see Gudoudama's speed feats. How fast they can be? How fast Madara's gudoudama's were?

Second, there are a lot of seemingly unlogical things there. Gaara claimed his sand was slower than Juubidara's attacks yet he could keep up and help Guy, Rock Lee was throwing teleportation kunai so fast it got up there, kakashi was fats enough to use Kamui in time. And there is one explanation - Guy gathered chakra for his last Evening Elephant punch and therefore, slowed down.

And SM Minato was blitzed by Juubidara like a cannon fodder. 

I counter you easily. I dance much better.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 14, 2014)

debates are useless, no one will ever agree with someone else regardless of the evidence or anything else.  With that in mind.





> ?!!?? (Volume 53, Chapter 503)
> Displaying astonishing skillfulness with ?Hiraishin no jutsu?!!
> Overwhelming the Masked Man that is the mastermind behind the Kyuubi Incident!!
> 
> ...







> p. 270
> Konoha
> Hundred Leaf Collection #71
> 
> ...







> 飛雷神互瞬回しの術 Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu/
> 
> 
> Ninjutsu
> ...





FTG-Giri ~>B-Rank
FTG-lvl 2~>A-Rank



and finally


The battle is a battle of speed. Minato is superior to Tobirama in shunshin, FTG, and reflexes. 
It's obvious which one the manga is shown to be superior. People only need to use their brain.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 14, 2014)

^^ There is no need to keep posting this over and over again. Numerous people have already destroyed your posts(not just that one)


----------



## Trojan (Dec 14, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> ^^ There is no need to keep posting this over and over again. Numerous people have already destroyed your posts(not just that one)



Sure. Everyone knows that Tobirama's wankers believes are to be taken seriously since they know better than the creator himself, no one can debate that.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Sure. Everyone knows that Tobirama's wankers believes are to be taken seriously since they know better than the creator himself, no one can debate that.



Just because one shinobi surpasses another with the same jutsu does not make them automatically stronger. This manga is littered with numerous examples.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Tobirama does not have better shunshin my god what are u basing this on????
> 
> One interception feat on catching the guodama and suddenly tobirama has better reflexes then i bring this interception feat..
> heart
> ...



I'm basing it on that interception feat yes lol.  That's the only feat where you can compare their actual shunshin. And considering Tobirama was able to shunshin faster then KCM Minato was able to react and move( think of the multiplier between KCM Minato and base Minato  it's ridiculous), then that makes him physically faster then base Minato.

Except that interception feat has 4 inconsistencies in like 4 panels . 

Lee being able to throw the Kunai into Gai's AoE: Link removed

Gaara being able to move his sand faster then Gai could move: Link removed

And Kakashi being able to Kamui faster then Gais movement: Link removed


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'm basing it on that interception feat yes lol.  That's the only feat where you can compare their actual shunshin. And considering Tobirama was able to shunshin faster then KCM Minato was able to react and move( think of the multiplier between KCM Minato and base Minato  it's ridiculous), then that makes him physically faster then base Minato.
> 
> Except that interception feat has 4 inconsistencies in like 4 panels .
> 
> ...



I checked it again and tobirama used hirashin he had marked minato prior so ya ..he didnt shunshin..considering minatos hype with ftg and his hype for godlike speed using ftg defensively its not an inconsistency..taking people like juubidara on front on in a physical exhange will get him beat .gai was moving in a straight line lee could throw the kunai from the side with his gated strength...same gaara could carry kakashi from any angle..not to mention thats how interceptions work...remember suigetsu blocking a ...t..not to mention questioning one interception feat while taking the other as evidence reeks of agenda..


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 14, 2014)

Its really hard to debate with someone who doesn't understand the what reflexes are


----------



## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> I checked it again and tobirama used hirashin he had marked minato prior so ya ..he didnt shunshin..considering minatos hype with ftg and his hype for godlike speed using ftg defensively its not an inconsistency..taking people like juubidara on front on in a physical exhange will get him beat .gai was moving in a straight line lee could throw the kunai from the side with his gated strength...same gaara could carry kakashi from any angle..not to mention thats how interceptions work...remember suigetsu blocking a ...t..not to mention questioning one interception feat while taking the other as evidence reeks of agenda..



Minato wasn't marked lol . That was after , you didn't check anything lol.

So Gaara sand speed, Kamui speed, and Lee's throwing speed> Gais 8th gate speed, why didnt they all just blitz the shit out of Madara lol. 

Interception fears are valid only if  
they correlate with prior feats. Prior, tobirama was able to tag Juubito 4 times mid shunshin. After he was able to warp to Juubito and place a hand on his shoulder before he was able to even perceive his presence. That supports his feat against Minato .

Minato's feat is inconsistent as fuck because we know as a fact that Gaara, Lee and base Minato are inferior to 8th gas Gai in terms of speed. But we don't know diddly squat of the comparison between TOBIRAMA and Minato regarding speed and arm speed.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2014)

> The battle is a battle of speed. Minato is superior to Tobirama in shunshin, FTG, and reflexes.
> It's obvious which one the manga is shown to be superior. People only need to use their brain.



It is *YOU* who need to use your brain properly. Are you blind? Or you just keep trolling around? 

There is no doubt Minato is better than Tobirama in Shunshin and FTG. But even in your screens, your posts, there is *COMPLETELY NOTHING* about their reflexes comparison. There is *NOTHING* to suggest Minato has better reflexes. Because Tobiramas *FEATS* are better and there is *NO STATEMENTS* from Kishimoto, or *ANY* Databook that Minato has better* SPEED* and *REFLEXES* than Tobirama.

Tobirama did way better against Juubidara than BM Minato. That is enough to put Tobirama above Minato in terms of *COMBAT SPEED* and *REACTION SPEED*. Because that feat shows Tobirama had better *COMBAT SPEED* and *REACTION SPEED* than *BM* Minato. It is logical. 

And why do you think the fact alive Madara easily beat Tobirama proves anything? Madara would have done the same thing to Minato, since he himself has better *COMBAT SPEED* and *REACTION* feats than BM Minato. Plus, he had Hashirama's Sage Mode at that time.

Praise proves nothing. People can think he is the fastest, but they can be wrong. And if we look at his feats, it seems shinobi who praised him as the fastest were truly wrong. Tobirama, Might Guy, Hashirama, Madara - all these people are above Minato in combat speed partment. They are faster and have better reflexes in combat.
Because they have *BETTER FEATS*.

Your steps are too weak, although you wanna keep dancing. 



> Its really hard to debate with someone who doesn't understand the what reflexes are



Up to this moment, you are just wanking. Thats all. It is true that even Hussain dance better than you.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2014)

> Minato wasn't marked lol . That was after , you didn't check anything lol.
> 
> So Gaara sand speed, Kamui speed, and Lee's throwing speed> Gais 8th gate speed, why didnt they all just blitz the shit out of Madara lol.
> 
> ...



Well, i think there is a logical explanation. Guy slowed down because he gathered chakra for the last Evening Elephant punch.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Well, i think there is a logical explanation. Guy slowed down because he gathered chakra for the last Evening Elephant punch.



Idk something like that's. All we know for sure is that he wasn't moving as fast as before .


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 14, 2014)

When Tobirama shows the reflexes to:

-FTG in front of 8 Gate Gai
-Touch Madara's Juuidama balls by his cloak
-then FTG to the Konoha before Gai could touch him and Madara's Juubidama balls could make contact with his back

Then we can talk about reflexes 

I don't even want to get on the fact that Tobirama died to twenty Kumo fodder while Minato was soloed the Kumo Elite ninja that infiltrated the Konoha and captured the Kyuubi at the age of nine


----------



## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> When Tobirama shows the reflexes to:
> 
> -FTG in front of 8 Gate Gai
> -Touch Madara's Juuidama balls by his cloak
> ...



So now Gaaras sand , exhausted Kakashi, and 6th gate Lee are all top tiers ?  get that outlier shit out of here.

Tobirama all lost to 2 legendary ninja with V2 Bjuii forms, in which he has no way to penetrate.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> So now Gaaras sand , exhausted Kakashi, and 6th gate Lee are all top tiers ?  get that outlier shit out of here.
> 
> Tobirama all lost to 2 legendary ninja with V2 Bjuii forms, in which he has no way to penetrate.



Last time I checked, neither of those individuals did what Minato did. Re-read my post to see what he actually did with his reflexes, then compare them to the others.

Oh, you mean those two Darui level ninja


----------



## Cognitios (Dec 14, 2014)

I'm still holding onto my theory that the 3rd Raikage was in that squad.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Last time I checked, neither of those individuals did what Minato did. Re-read my post to see what he actually did with his reflexes, then compare them to the others.
> 
> Oh, you mean those two Darui level ninja



It doesn't matter what Minato did at all :Lmao 
They all accomplished feats that go against their character ability like Gaaras sand transcending 8th gated Gais speed or Lee beating able to throw a kunai perfectly in between Gai and the black orbs at a speed faster then Gai and the black orbs. Honestly, Gaaras feats makes Minato's look like shit considering he physically had to move he sand from here: Tailed Beast Bomb Barrage
To here : Tailed Beast Bomb Barrage
While all Minato had to do was teleport twice.

Bruh you are funny sometimes. You forgot the fact that once Kin entered Bjuii mode Darui needed an entire division to support him, and they only beat him in a way that was prepped by the commander of the alliance before the battle even pursued.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 15, 2014)

@KYU

Are you off your rocker ? 

Sage Minato was outright blitzed off a FTG jump by a casual Madara , who in turn could hardly react to 8th gated Gais intial assault . & your telling me BASE MINATO can outspeed 8th gated Gai and its a legit feat, yet the 3 others that did it are outliers ? I can't even comprehend the bullshit you just pulled out your ass.

KCM Minato got blitzed by Incomplete Juubito, then got his arm cut off while simultaneously getting tagged by V2 Juubito. And we both know that Red aura Gai is >> to Juubito in terms of movement speed and arm speed . So no, Minato doesnt react to gai. He gets no credit here. He may have " hype " for speed, but that was also compared to beings like V2 Ay and KCM Naruto. Hype that puts his speed inferior to incomplete Juubito who could shunshin in between kage before KCM Minato could perceive his presence.


----------



## Kyu (Dec 15, 2014)

> He was blitzed by Juubito and Juubidara. He is nowhere in that speed tier.



He reacted to v1 Jewbito's truth seeking orbs by teleporting elsewhere before they punctured Naruto & Sasuke's skulls. 

Later on he parried and smacked away v2 Juubito's chakra arms.

While Kyuubi Minato(without avatar) is nowhere near either incarnation in terms of sheer movement speed; he's capable of reacting to their techniques so long as he isn't on the offense.



> Lee throw kunai just in time so Minato can FTG there with a speed faster than that of 8 gates Guy, Kakashi kamui'd Juubidara's Gudoudama sphere just in time, Gaara kept up using his sand. Guy slowed down at that moment.



. In essence, you're wrong.



> And there is no such a thing as V1 Juubito, or V2 Juubito.



v2 & v1 are terms I use to differentiate between the two Juubitos instead of calling them "smart" & "berserk" or "mindless" Juubito all the time. 



> It was the same Juubito. He had control over his powers, than he lost it, than he regained it. But it was the same Juubito, with the same chakra, strength, reflexes and speed.



v2 Juubito:
-An intelligent individual 
-Can dispel ninjutsu
-can activate _Musekiyōjin_
-the ability to call forth The Shinju 
-_x4 Juubidama_ through a summoning


v1 Juubito(mindless):
-Feeble-minded
-tries to blow himself up
-The inability to utilize _Gudōdama_ to their full potential 
-can't control The Juubi
-unstable body 

They differ greatly from a combat standpoint.



> Yes, but Tobirama put a FTG formula on Juubito with several explosive tags. Minato, on the other hand, did nothing and lost his arm.





			
				Last page said:
			
		

> Tobirama took advantage of his own immortal body & marked a mentally challenged Juubi Jinchuriki who couldn't use his powers to their full capacity.
> 
> Minato fought a superior foe under far more unfavorable circumstances.







> @KYU
> 
> Are you off your rocker ?



No, but judging from your overreaction and excessive use of caps, there's a possibility you might be.



> Sage Minato was outright blitzed off a FTG jump by a casual Madara,


All of your examples are pretty bad.

On the offensive you have less time to react mid-strike as opposed to merely warping in and out.



> & your telling me BASE MINATO can outspeed 8th gated Gai



Can he keep up with Gai with his shunshin? Hell no.

Can he avoid a beating while on the attack? Not a chance.

Can Minato teleport out of Red Gated Gai's way so long as he knows where he's located? Absolutely. 



> and its a legit feat, yet the 3 others that did it are outliers ?



Kakashi, Gaara, & Lee lack the speed-hype & on-panel feats Minato has.




> So no, Minato doesnt react to gai.


Except he did.



> He gets no credit here. He may have " hype " for speed, but that was also compared to beings like V2 Ay and KCM Naruto. Hype that puts his speed inferior to incomplete Juubito who could shunshin in between kage before KCM Minato could perceive his presence



Yet in your world a less than hundred-percent Tobirama is faster than Kyuubi Minato despite the former stating otherwise. Oh you.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

> =Kyu;52468443]
> Kakashi, Gaara, & Lee lack the speed-hype & on-panel feats Minato has.


Minato is the one who supported them to begin with. lol
please watch, short
Here Gaara stats clearly that his jutsu is slower, and Minato stats that it's ok, and he will give his
Kunais to Kakashi because of that. lol



> Except he did.



The irony with Tobirama's fans is when he took that Gedu-dama before handicap Minato could they took it as a proof that Tobirama is faster regardless of it being off-paneled feet. When I debated him long ago about Siugetsu (if his name is like that, don't feel like looking it up) he said, yeah, it's his feat regardless. 

But when you give Hiruzen's feat of saving the Kid before Tobirama, or Minato's feat with 8th Gate Gai, the hypocrisy start to work with Minato's haters.  

It's no use. @>@


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Last time I checked, neither of those individuals did what Minato did. Re-read my post to see what he actually did with his reflexes, then compare them to the others.
> 
> Oh, you mean those two Darui level ninja



The funny part they probably did not even use their Kurama's chakra to beat Tobirama. That's why he's severely overrated. lol

Kakuzu here said Kin only use it when Gin is defeated


which he obviously was not


Even with other 6 of his students, he's still outclassed


Don't know from where he got all those credits people give to him!  
Even Darui did better than Tobirama.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

what do you know. The Raikage would surely be with the worst group of criminals in their village's history.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2014)

> He reacted to v1 Jewbito's truth seeking orbs by teleporting elsewhere before they punctured Naruto & Sasuke's skulls.
> 
> Later on he parried and smacked away v2 Juubito's chakra arms.
> 
> While Kyuubi Minato(without avatar) is nowhere near either incarnation in terms of sheer movement speed; he's capable of reacting to their techniques so long as he isn't on the offense.



Well, how fast Gudoudamas are? Juubito himself is fast, but what about Gudoudamas? Bring here their speed feats.

And do you think his chakra arms are as fast as himself? How can you prove that?



> v2 Juubito:
> -An intelligent individual
> -Can dispel ninjutsu
> -can activate Musekiyōjin
> ...



I agree that Juubito couldnt use his full offencive potensial when he confronted Tobirama. But he was just as fast as later, when he had confrontation with BM Minato. The same chakra, control of this chakra without ability to use its full offencive potencial (probably he didnt know how to use it) and the same speed.



> Tobirama took advantage of his own immortal body & marked a mentally challenged Juubi Jinchuriki who couldn't use his powers to their full capacity.
> 
> Minato fought a superior foe under far more unfavorable circumstances.



Juubito was as fast as later. The same physique, and therefore, the same speed.

Tobirama, just in time when Juubito was close enough, put 1 FTG formula and several explosive tags on him. Thats how fast Tobirama was. While BM Minato got himself beaten easily, did nothing and lost his arm. 



> Can Minato teleport out of Red Gated Gai's way so long as he knows where he's located? Absolutely.



Depends on how far from him Guy is. 



> Kakashi, Gaara, & Lee lack the speed-hype & on-panel feats Minato has.



So what? It was still very odd. And Gaara has a comparable feat - his sand reacted to V2 Raikage no problem.



> Except he did.



Because Guy seemingly slowed down to gather chakra for the last Evening Elephant punch. He was "straight forward" but slowed down. Seemingly. Thats a logical explanation to what happened there.



> Yet in your world a less than hundred-percent Tobirama is faster than Kyuubi Minato despite the former stating otherwise. Oh you.



Um... Can you bring here a scan where Tobirama admits Minato is *faster* than him? Not in a Shunshin, or FTG technique, but in terms of speed/reflexes/reaction speed etcetera? At least *one*.



> Minato is the one who supported them to begin with. lol



And Kakashi Kamui'd just in time... 



> But when you give Hiruzen's feat of saving the Kid before Tobirama, or Minato's feat with 8th Gate Gai, the hypocrisy start to work with Minato's haters.



Well, Kakashi just in time used Kamui, Gaara had sand without FTG so fast it kept up, although Minato "prepared" them...


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> The funny part they probably did not even use their Kurama's chakra to beat Tobirama. That's why he's severely overrated. lol
> 
> Kakuzu here said Kin only use it when Gin is defeated
> 
> ...



Why are you bringing that statement here? Maybe they used tricks, or some super-puper technique to defeat Tobirama. We dont know the detailes of his defeat.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Why are you bringing that statement here? Maybe they used tricks, or some super-puper technique to defeat Tobirama. We dont know the detailes of his defeat.



-and Maybe Tobirama used tricks, or ET to fight for him while he was hiding behind a rock? 
- Well, he was defeated nevertheless. Also, what's the point of brining feats when Tobirama's fans are going to deny them anyway?

Minato DID show a feat of outpacing Gai, did you take it? No, you did not. 
It was stated like 5 times that Minato is superior to Tobirama in speed. STRIGHT FORWARD STATEMENTS. And he actually showed that, did his fans take it? No, they didn't. 

God bless them, Tobirama is the retard who does not know about what he's capable of, but THEY know about him better than he does.  

you simply can't debate against that because no matter what, they won't take something against their
favourite, even if it is by his own mouth.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> -and Maybe Tobirama used tricks, or ET to fight for him while he was hiding behind a rock?
> - Well, he was defeated nevertheless. Also, what's the point of brining feats when Tobirama's fans are going to deny them anyway?
> 
> Minato DID show a feat of outpacing Gai, did you take it? No, you did not.
> ...



There is no statement Minato is superior to Tobirama in speed. There are statements only about Shunshin, FTG and Minato's "praise' that proves nothing.

And he showed that Tobirama is faster than him, even if he is in a Bijuu Mode. Am i need to bring here that FTG formula feat again?

I dont think its a good thing to bring here the fact he was defeated by them. Since we dont know how they did it. There are too many "maybe". That fact proves nothing because we dont know all about it.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> There is no statement Minato is superior to Tobirama in speed. There are statements only about Shunshin, FTG and Minato's "praise' that proves nothing.
> 
> And he showed that Tobirama is faster than him, even if he is in a Bijuu Mode. Am i need to bring here that FTG formula feat again?
> 
> I dont think its a good thing to bring here the fact he was defeated by them. Since we dont know how they did it. There are too many "maybe". That fact proves nothing because we dont know all about it.



- Sure, because shunshin and FTG are not actually about speed. :rofl
- You can stay delusional all you want, that does not effect facts. 
- His level was set in stone when he got defeated by them. They did not only beat his ass once, but twice. They are clearly shown to be in a higher level than Tobirama that "winning" was not even an option.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 15, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Minato wasn't marked lol . That was after , you didn't check anything lol.
> 
> So Gaara sand speed, Kamui speed, and Lee's throwing speed> Gais 8th gate speed, why didnt they all just blitz the shit out of Madara lol.
> 
> ...



Yup ur right about the tag...

interesting take on the interception feat lol ya tobirama managed to land touches in exchange for getting obliterated...and you conveniently ignore the fact that this was mindless juubito he made no attempts to defend himself from any attacks or touches he was not even able to speak did not dodge hashiramas gates even though his speed should allow him to casually dodge it..he was essentially going berserk...so much so he was attacking himself..he was able to get caught by base hashis casual mokuton while half destroyed..you wanna claim base hashiramas casual mokuton is faster then minato too inconsistencies huh......he was not some reflexive monster he was barely conscious...he could have easily broken hashiramas branches like he demolished the sage gates...but he took time forming coherent thoughts...juubito taking so much time to react as to get caught by mokuton branches and watch tags flying towards him while tobirama is talking...and still cant break free...inconsistencies huh.. though he was dangerous..when he decided to attack he used his speed with killing intent..even old hiruzen was able to dodge a straight blitz here..please watch, short in and out of conciousness here..please watch, short..

Actually ur just reaching here we have a panel comparing their shunshin directly..please watch, short

Minato managed to put a marking hundred miles out in sea here
please watch, short

he set up the markings around the juubi 
please watch, short

teleported the bijudama please watch, short
 all this while no one registered his presence...
please watch, short

and still it took a while for tobirama to reach the battlefield..
to claim tobirama has superior shunshin is ludicrous..lol and for tobirama to shunshin to minato for the interception feat an inconsistency..


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 15, 2014)

The fact that Tobirama shunshin'd to minato to make that interception shouldn't take anything away from minato. Because we already know minato has superior shunshin (manga fact). So if tobiramas shunshin > Minatos Hand speed... then wow omg what an accomplishment for Tobirama (sarcasm)

And I've already stated this before that minato wasn't even aware that it was there from the start. Tobirama was off panel and probably had a better placed view. And again, 1 armed handicapped minato was unable to reach a bomb on the opposite side of his arm. How does that make him slower than Tobirama there when he didn't even have the arm that was closer to the bomb. Is Hiruzen also faster than Tobirama (have better reactions) because he intercepted Tobirama from off panel to save Naruto?

And honestly, I can't take anyone serious who still thinks mindless Juubito is the same as perfect sage of six paths Juubito. There was a huge difference. Tobirama lost half his body, minato lost 1 arm. 2 different opponents. I don't see why people are even try to compare, two completely different scenarios.

Anyone who says 8 gates guy slowed down, come at me and I'll gladly crap on your posts. I don't care what Kakashi, Lee and Gaara were doing. It's about minato and guy, that's all I care about.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

Tobirama used FTG to appear next to Minato though, not his shunshin,


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2014)

> - Sure, because shunshin and FTG are not actually about speed.
> - You can stay delusional all you want, that does not effect facts.
> - His level was set in stone when he got defeated by them. They did not only beat his ass once, but twice. They are clearly shown to be in a higher level than Tobirama that "winning" was not even an option.



-Technique speed... Not his own speed. Minato's Shunshin and FTG were better than those of Tobirama, no doubt. But he himself wasnt faster/better than Tobirama. 
-And, by facts, Tobirama has quicker reaction and combat speed.
-And at the same time, we dont know how exactly they beat him. Thats why its not very useful for you to bring it here.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> -Technique speed... Not his own speed. Minato's Shunshin and FTG were better than those of Tobirama, no doubt. But he himself wasnt faster/better than Tobirama.
> -And, by facts, Tobirama has quicker reaction and combat speed.
> -And at the same time, we dont know how exactly they beat him. Thats why its not very useful for you to bring it here.



- Obviously he is faster and better than Tobirama. 
- BS. By fact Obito shat on Tobirama completely, but he was only able to cut 1 arm from Minato. Anyone who actually has a brain know that getting your body destroyed completely is worst that getting only a hand cut off. 

- I don't care. What I do care is they are several levels above him. Those same people that Darui defeated them.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama used FTG to appear next to Minato though, not his shunshin,



How do you know that?


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]RPyjGhfk9Pk[/YOUTUBE]

Even the way he was standing is not something possible for someone who was running.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> [YOUTUBE]RPyjGhfk9Pk[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Even the way he was standing is not something possible for someone who was running.



Don't think so, the anime just depicted it that way. Even the second FTG Tobirama uses (when he tells them not to worry), looks wrong. Because in the manga it shows him landing and impacting the ground in a crouched form, while in the anime it shows him FTG there.

But there's no marking for either, so how could he teleport there?


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 15, 2014)

Tobirama is definitely superior to Minato in some aspects. He arguably has better reaction speed, having out-manoeuvred Obito on at least two instances while Minato lost an arm to him. Though, this feat is a bit murky because the War arc as a whole has been very ambiguous and inconsistent in regards to speed. Tobirama also had the benefit of having observed/experienced Obito's speed through his kage bunshin right at the start of his transformation - Minato didn't have that. You could make a case that Tobirama's reactions are also debatably augmented by his insane chakra sensing as well. On the other hand, we know that Minato can also sense from Kurama telling him to "enter sensor mode", but every time we've seen it his usage of it has been rather tenuous and the War arc in general has clearly portrayed his predecessor to be the best of the best as far as sensing goes.

I think it'd also be fair to say that Tobirama is also more flexible in combat and generally better at tactics. Minato is obviously far better at the hiraishin thing, but lacks solid long ranged ninjutsu like the Nidaime has and it was him who mostly directed the earlier tactics employed against Obito. Minato is no slouch in regards to tactical fighting; he clearly moves with efficacy and is quick to adapt to most situations, but Tobirama just has the edge thanks to his wealth of experience in war and battle.

With that said, if it ever came down to a fight, I'd be more willing to bet on Minato than I would with Tobirama. The latter might have suiton ninjutsu at his disposal, but realistically those wouldn't even slow Minato down. Much like with Obito, it would ultimately become a battle of speed, and Minato not only has a much more intuitive and sophisticated use of hiraishin, but also greater teleportation speed and pre-marked kunai at his disposal.


----------



## Kyu (Dec 15, 2014)

> Well, how fast Gudoudamas are? Juubito himself is fast, but what about Gudoudamas? Bring here their speed feats.



The same move annihilated Hiruzen in mere seconds. Doesn't take long.

Negated _Amaterasu_ in a heartbeat and fast enough for Minato & Tobirama to acknowledge as a massive threat.



> And do you think his chakra arms are as fast as himself? How can you prove that?



Torn down the Hokage's _Shisekiyōjin_ before any of them could reinforce it or stop him.



> I agree that Juubito couldnt use his full offencive potensial when he confronted Tobirama. But he was just as fast as later, when he had confrontation with BM Minato. The same chakra, control of this chakra without ability to use its full offencive potencial (probably he didnt know how to use it) and the same speed.





> Tobirama, just in time when Juubito was close enough, put 1 FTG formula and several explosive tags on him. Thats how fast Tobirama was. While BM Minato got himself beaten easily, did nothing and lost his arm.


Again, not fair to state Tobirama's performance was outright superior due to him having so many variables working in his benefit.




> Depends on how far from him Guy is.



True, although Minato has demonstrated he can react to Gai from a rather close distance.



> So what? It was still very odd. And Gaara has a comparable feat - his sand reacted to V2 Raikage no problem.



Minato threw a kunai before Kamui manifested.

Did so before Gaara's sand wall too.




> Because Guy seemingly slowed down to gather chakra for the last Evening Elephant punch. He was "straight forward" but slowed down. Seemingly. Thats a logical explanation to what happened there.


He didn't slow down shit.  



> And he showed that Tobirama is faster than him, even if he is in a Bijuu Mode.




>Tobirama being faster than Kyuubi Minato not an outlier

>Minato teleporting out of Gai's way an outlier despite him already displaying god tier mental reactions


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Tobirama is definitely superior to Minato in some aspects. He arguably has better reaction speed, having out-manoeuvred Obito on at least two instances while Minato lost an arm to him. Though, this feat is a bit murky because the War arc as a whole has been very ambiguous and inconsistent in regards to speed. Tobirama also had the benefit of having observed/experienced Obito's speed through his kage bunshin right at the start of his transformation - Minato didn't have that. You could make a case that Tobirama's reactions are also debatably augmented by his insane chakra sensing as well. On the other hand, we know that Minato can also sense from Kurama telling him to "enter sensor mode", but every time we've seen it his usage of it has been rather tenuous and the War arc in general has clearly portrayed his predecessor to be the best of the best as far as sensing goes.
> 
> I think it'd also be fair to say that Tobirama is also more flexible in combat and generally better at tactics. Minato is obviously far better at the hiraishin thing, but lacks solid long ranged ninjutsu like the Nidaime has and it was him who mostly directed the earlier tactics employed against Obito. Minato is no slouch in regards to tactical fighting; he clearly moves with efficacy and is quick to adapt to most situations, but Tobirama just has the edge thanks to his wealth of experience in war and battle.
> 
> With that said, if it ever came down to a fight, I'd be more willing to bet on Minato than I would with Tobirama. The latter might have suiton ninjutsu at his disposal, but realistically those wouldn't even slow Minato down. Much like with Obito, it would ultimately become a battle of speed, and Minato not only has a much more intuitive and sophisticated use of hiraishin, but also greater teleportation speed and pre-marked kunai at his disposal.



Well said.

However I can understand where you and many are coming from determining the outcome.  I feel the opposite way. I think it will come down to whoever makes the first mistake and thus leaning on Tobirama to win with his superior battle interlect. Tobiramas sensing + Reactions should take any advantage that Minato has in speed away. You must remember this is living Minato and Tobirama has shown superior reaction feats to BM Minato so the gap when Minato is living should be even greater

Also, how is One Teleportation speed slower then the other? Nothing indicates otherwise in the manga besides clone usage being slower. There FTG usuage is the same speed wise. Minato simply has the ability to jump around faster to marked Kunai


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 15, 2014)

Tobirama has better battle sense, but Minato isn't sloppy enough to slip up against a fellow hiraishin user. 

Also, I'm not actually sure how Minato teleports faster than Tobirama - teleportation is meant to be instantaneous - but seen as though the latter has explicitly said that the former is faster with his warping speed I'll take his word for it.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 15, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Tobirama has better battle sense, but Minato isn't sloppy enough to slip up against a fellow hiraishin user.
> 
> Also, I'm not actually sure how Minato teleports faster than Tobirama - teleportation is meant to be instantaneous - but seen as though the latter has explicitly said that the former is faster with his warping speed I'll take his word for it.



Regarding general battle intelect and experience sure ill give it to tobirama but in tactics ill give minato the edge his performance with no knowledge against obito and kamui was simply insane..he decoded the technique utilized the counter exploited the weakness with an inferior space time technique while his opponent had knowledge and surprise...i dont think minatos gonna slip up..it seems tobirama has a delay after teleporting as seen against sm madara its not a fluid continuous attack unlike ftg v2..im pretty sure kishi put ftg lv2 above hirashingiri because its superior..


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 15, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Well said.
> 
> However I can understand where you and many are coming from determining the outcome.  I feel the opposite way. I think it will come down to whoever makes the first mistake and thus leaning on Tobirama to win with his superior battle interlect. Tobiramas sensing + Reactions should take any advantage that Minato has in speed away. You must remember this is living Minato and Tobirama has shown superior reaction feats to BM Minato so the gap when Minato is living should be even greater
> 
> Also, how is One Teleportation speed slower then the other? Nothing indicates otherwise in the manga besides clone usage being slower. There FTG usuage is the same speed wise. Minato simply has the ability to jump around faster to marked Kunai



Minato also has sensing ...tobirama showed that feat with kcm minato not bm..and about reactions you are conveniently ignoring that a jinchuriki in control is massively superior then when not concerning juubito speed and combat abilities do get influenced massively.. compare v2 with bm....or kcm with bm....concerning the reaction feat this was not quoted to u but the argument is the same..

.interesting take on the interception feat lol ya tobirama managed to land touches in exchange for getting obliterated...and you conveniently ignore the fact that this was mindless juubito he made no attempts to defend himself from any attacks or touches he was not even able to speak did not dodge hashiramas gates even though his speed should allow him to casually dodge it..he was essentially going berserk...so much so he was attacking himself..he was able to get caught by base hashis casual mokuton while half destroyed..you wanna claim base hashiramas casual mokuton is faster then minato too inconsistencies huh......he was not some reflexive monster he was barely conscious...he could have easily broken hashiramas branches like he demolished the sage gates...but he took time forming coherent thoughts...juubito taking so much time to react as to get caught by mokuton branches and watch tags flying towards him while tobirama is talking...and still cant break free...inconsistencies huh.. though he was dangerous..when he decided to attack he used his speed with killing intent..even old hiruzen was able to dodge a straight blitz here..Sasuke in and out of conciousness here..Sasuke..

it was an interception feat if you use that for tobiramas case take minatos against 8th gate gai as legit too

not to mention tobirama using ftg sneak attack from behind could not touch sm madara once 
Sasuke
Sasuke
ftg  prevented the advantage of any dojutsu precog... even with the element of surprise and using ftg to position himself into a blindspot he was not able to touch madara something inexperienced ems sasuke accomplished with his basic movements and kenjutsu ....so plz dont try to portray tobirama as the reflexive superior at best they are on the same level

sm madara was getting tagged in cqc by an inexperienced ems sasuke..
Sasuke

same ems sasuke who was blitzed by mindless juubito here and saved by minato..
Sasuke


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2014)

> The same move annihilated Hiruzen in mere seconds. Doesn't take long.
> 
> Negated Amaterasu in a heartbeat and fast enough for Minato & Tobirama to acknowledge as a massive threat.



Um... It was his staff, not a gudoudama. And that was Juubito himself who intercepted Amaterasu.

Yeah, while Juubito was holding his head with his hand thus nullify Hiruzens chances of escaping. It was a Juubitos speed feat rather Gudoudamas speed feat.



> Torn down the Hokage's Shisekiyōjin before any of them could reinforce it or stop him.



Can you bring a scan of that moment, or manga chapter? Dont remember that to be honest.



> Again, not fair to state Tobirama's performance was outright superior due to him having so many variables working in his benefit.



Such as? Juubito attacked him and, at the moment they were close distance, Tobirama put a FTG mark and several explosive tags on him. That feat is very impressive. BM Minato tried to attack Juubito and did nothing, got himself beaten effortlessly and lost his arm. Tobirama did better than BM Minato. And keep in mind it was a BM Minato. I admit BM Minato is superior to Tobirama because of Kurama's chakra, although his reflexes and combat speed is still not as good as Tobirama's. But base Minato loses. 



> True, although Minato has demonstrated he can react to Gai from a rather close distance.



Maybe Guy slowed down to gather chakra for the last Evening Elephant punch. Kakashi, Lee and Gaara also were capable of reacting to that Guy in that instance. Thats kinda odd, especially when SM Minato got blitzed by Juubidara before that.



> Minato threw a kunai before Kamui manifested.
> 
> Did so before Gaara's sand wall too.



Are you talking about that instance with kakashi, Gaara and Lee reacting to 8 Gates Guy? Well, Minato just teleported himself there. Anyway, that moment is odd.



> >Tobirama being faster than Kyuubi Minato not an outlier
> 
> >Minato teleporting out of Gai's way an outlier despite him already displaying god tier mental reactions



Not going to explain that moment again.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Obviously he is faster and better than Tobirama.
> - BS. By fact Obito shat on Tobirama completely, but he was only able to cut 1 arm from Minato. Anyone who actually has a brain know that getting your body destroyed completely is worst that getting only a hand cut off.
> 
> - I don't care. What I do care is they are several levels above him. Those same people that Darui defeated them.



Well, it is clear for me now that you are Minato's fanboy. Sorry for hurting your fanboy feelings, man. 

But lets back on the topic. Since when Minato is obviously faster and better than Tobirama? Since mighty lord Hussain sayd so? 

Obito shat on both Tobirama and BM Minato. But Tobirama at least did something. He was fast enough to put FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito when they were close distance. BM Minato, however, did nothing, was blitzed and lost his arm in the process. Plus, Tobirama seemingly didnt try to dodge Juubito, since he used his Kamikaze-style.

And keep in mind it was a BM Minato. I can imagine how fast Tobirama would have been compare to Minato if he had Kurama's half. 

Fanboish attitude. You will ignore the fact it is unknown how they defeated him? Fine. Keep doing that.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 15, 2014)

Kyu said:


> No, but judging from your overreaction and excessive use of caps, there's a possibility you might be.
> 
> 
> All of your examples are pretty bad.
> ...



True you have less time , but the time is less then the multiplier between sage Minato and base Minato, and more importantly the difference between Red Aura Gai and one eyed Madara in terms of speed. If Madara was able to react to Minato after being distracted by sand + Kamui, and Gai does this to Madara: almost caught by Gaara's sand and barely escaped
almost caught by Gaara's sand and barely escaped
Then why would Minato be able to heavily outspeed Gai? 

Honestly roles are revered. Madara did to Sage Minato( superior to base) what Gai did Madara. So why would Minato all of a sudden be way faster then Gai in a weaker form?

He definitely cannot considering Gai blitzes Madara off of his first Jump, and now Minato can teleport between a Red Auara dash, wait for the balls to his body, and then teleport away? Either Gai was traveling slower or its an outlier. Pick one.

Minato also loads the speed hype and on panel speed to troll Gai like that 

His " handspeed " is faster then Kyuui Minato , and his shunshin is faster then base Minato .

Guessing you don't know what the viz translation says, cause Tobirama said " your teleportation is better ," which is clearly different from having faster shunshin speed.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 15, 2014)

Where does the claim of superior battle intellect come from I wonder? Because I can give a list of minato feats in this category that make him one of the best. As well as databook statements.

What was it I missed that Tobirama did that was so great, that people are making such claims. I can understand experiments and knowledge goes in tobiramas favor. Eg he has a better understanding of light and dark chakra and the powers of the sage of six paths (obviously the older generations are more knowledgable on that kind of historic stuff compared to the newer generations). It's just like how Kakashi (despite all his genius) thought that the Rinnegan was just a mutation. However Hashirama was well aware of e sages power and techniques like Rinne Tensei, which I'm sure Tobirama would know too. And of course over time, that kind of knowledge is lost in history and thought of as tales and myths. 

So yeah, all day everyday I'll say Tobirama has more experience (he's way, Way, WAY older than Minato mind you). And his overall knowledge of the world would be more (this is also as a result of age and experience). Hence why Tobirama had time to develop many jutsu, while minato only got around to 1 or a few. 

However in terms of battle tactics, strategy and ESPECIALLY Analytical ability, there's no way minato is inferior in this department. When minato has a plan, it's flawless, when he analyses something, he breaks it down perfectly, with precise explanation. And he can determine the strengths and weaknesses of something after seeing it just once. So excuse me if I call BS on such claims. If the two were to fight, there is no way minato would be outsmarted, because he is also super smart. That's why it will always come down to speed, neither are outsmarting the other. However minato has more versatility with his FTG, which can be used to confuse and "trick" the opponent. This is where the major difference lies.

As I've already said, KCM doesn't improve reflexes or reactions. Someone get me the manga statement of that, otherwise gtfo. It's so untrue. You get an arrive of new abilities and boosts, but reactions is not one of them. Speed boost (as in shunshin) is improved. Naruto already explained that he can sense and react much better in sage mode, so again another false claim.  People keep saying BM minato have no idea what BM is. BM and KCM are two completely separate forms entirely.  Minato doesn't react any slower than Tobirama, he was just in unfavourable situations. Perfect Juubito > mindless Jubito. I'll spam that to Kingdom come until it sinks on to your heads. Perfect Juubito even gained a new form and weapon and powers, yet people think they're the same smh.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 15, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> True you have less time , but the time is less then the multiplier between sage Minato and base Minato, and more importantly the difference between Red Aura Gai and one eyed Madara in terms of speed. If Madara was able to react to Minato after being distracted by sand + Kamui, and Gai does this to Madara: decent amount more
> decent amount more
> Then why would Minato be able to heavily outspeed Gai?
> 
> ...



Regarding them inconsistenciesck
interesting take on the interception feat lol ya tobirama managed to land touches in exchange for getting obliterated...and you conveniently ignore the fact that this was mindless juubito he made no attempts to defend himself from any attacks or touches he was not even able to speak did not dodge hashiramas gates even though his speed should allow him to casually dodge it..he was essentially going berserk...so much so he was attacking himself..he was able to get caught by base hashis casual mokuton while half destroyed..you wanna claim base hashiramas casual mokuton is faster then minato too inconsistencies huh......he was not some reflexive monster he was barely conscious...he could have easily broken hashiramas branches like he demolished the sage gates...but he took time forming coherent thoughts...juubito taking so much time to react as to get caught by mokuton branches and watch tags flying towards him while tobirama is talking...and still cant break free...inconsistencies huh.. though he was dangerous..when he decided to attack he used his speed with killing intent..even old hiruzen was able to dodge a straight blitz here..
decent amount more...
going in and out of conciousness here..
decent amount more..

Actually ur just reaching here we have a panel comparing their shunshin directly..decent amount more

Minato managed to put a marking hundred miles out in sea here
decent amount more

he set up the markings around the juubi
decent amount more

teleported the bijudama decent amount more
all this while no one registered his presence...
decent amount more

and still it took a while for tobirama to reach the battlefield..and lol are u claiming he kept throwing kunai continuously and using ftgv2 ftg till he reached the the battlefield cuz there was no marker on the battlefield...seems legit
to claim tobirama has superior shunshin is ludicrous..lol and for tobirama to shunshin to minato for the interception feat an inconsistency..


----------



## Kyu (Dec 15, 2014)

Quoting the shit I haven't covered 586986325 times ITT.




> Um... It was his staff, not a gudoudama.



What do you think the staff is made out of, champ?




> And that was Juubito himself who intercepted Amaterasu.



Due to Gudōdama having the speed to nullify the jutsu before it makes contact with Obito.




> Yeah, while Juubito was holding his head with his hand thus nullify Hiruzens chances of escaping. It was a Juubitos speed feat rather Gudoudamas speed feat.



The moment Jew grabbed Hiruzen it was a Gudōdama speed feat.





> Can you bring a scan of that moment, or manga chapter? Dont remember that to be honest.




*Spoiler*: __ 












> I admit BM Minato is superior to Tobirama because of Kurama's chakra, although his reflexes and combat speed is still not as good as Tobirama's.








> Thats kinda odd, especially when SM Minato got blitzed by Juubidara before that.





> On the offensive you have less time to react mid-strike as opposed to merely warping in and out.







> Are you talking about that instance with kakashi, Gaara and Lee reacting to 8 Gates Guy? Well, Minato just teleported himself there. Anyway, that moment is odd.





> Not going to explain that moment again


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Minato also has sensing ...tobirama showed that feat with kcm minato not bm..



Yes you would be correct with KCM that was my typo however Tobirama is leagues better at sensing then base Minato




> and about reactions you are conveniently ignoring that a jinchuriki in control is massively superior then when not concerning juubito speed and combat abilities do get influenced massively.. compare v2 with bm....or kcm with bm....concerning the reaction feat this was not quoted to u but the argument is the same..



I once never ingnored or took away from the fact that Juubito control is superior when he could actually form a sentence. This is common sense



> .interesting take on the interception feat lol ya tobirama managed to land touches in exchange for getting obliterated...and you conveniently ignore the fact that this was mindless juubito he made no attempts to defend himself from any attacks or touches he was not even able to speak did not dodge hashiramas gates even though his speed should allow him to casually dodge it..



You do realize Tobirama CHOOSE to get obliterated right? It's not that hard to understand once you read past one panel logic. He even goes on to explain why 

Mindless Juubito was still able to defend and attack in numerous situations. This was already covered in previous posts. If not for Minato Sasuke & Naruto would have been wtf blitzed killed as well



> he was essentially going berserk...so much so he was attacking himself.



Minato still had the capabality of pulling back the moment he recognized the change in Obito. It was his choice to continue on with the attack.

Mindless Obito still had the capability to defend and attack in such a manor that if it wasn't for Minato he would have killed Naruto & Sasuke. The only time they tried to take advantage was when Obito was going through his change and "couldnt control his body" however those attemps failed since he attack himself forcing them to retreat and think what just happend

Ah yes one panel reading at a time once again 




> it was an interception feat if you use that for tobiramas case take minatos against 8th gate gai as legit too



This has already been discused and broken down by two members in this thread. Read up on those posts and rethink what happened. Thga kunai & sand speed surpass 8 gaited Gai...omg like seriously durp


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

> [=Atlantic Storm;52470113]Tobirama is definitely superior to Minato in some aspects. He arguably has better reaction speed, having out-manoeuvred Obito on at least two instances while Minato lost an arm to him.


Minato lost an arm. Tobirama lost his entire body against in inferior obito. 



> Though, this feat is a bit murky because the War arc as a whole has been very ambiguous and inconsistent in regards to speed.


Not really. Tobirama has the tags inside of his body. Obito shat on him, and the explosion tags got stuck to him. 


> Tobirama also had the benefit of having observed/experienced Obito's speed through his kage bunshin right at the start of his transformation - Minato didn't have that. You could make a case that Tobirama's reactions are also debatably augmented by his insane chakra sensing as well. On the other hand, we know that Minato can also sense from Kurama telling him to "enter sensor mode", but every time we've seen it his usage of it has been rather tenuous and the War arc in general has clearly portrayed his predecessor to be the best of the best as far as sensing goes.



Tobirama was told by Hashirama to sense Oro, and Tobirama did not sense what was going on except when Oro stated that. It's a thing they need to actually activate. Also, Minato was able to sense with even 1 finger, when Tobirama needs 2. 



> I think it'd also be fair to say that Tobirama is also more flexible in combat and generally better at tactics.


He showed no such thing, unlike Minato with his flexibility when he saved kid Kakashi for example. 


> Minato is obviously far better at the hiraishin thing, but lacks solid long ranged ninjutsu like the Nidaime has and it was him who mostly directed the earlier tactics employed against Obito.


The only long range jutsu he has shown is his Water Dragon jutsu, which is useless anyway. 



> Minato is no slouch in regards to tactical fighting; he clearly moves with efficacy and is quick to adapt to most situations, but Tobirama just has the edge thanks to his wealth of experience in war and battle.


Minato's war experience exceeds Tobirama. The different is obvious from the result of their performance in the war at their time, and even in the current one. His ability to command, and actually preform in combat brought victory to konoha even with them being inferior in term of number. Unlike Tobirama. It even stated directly in Minato's case



> p148
> 
> ↓His leadership ability cultivated through actual battles must have been utilized after he was installed as Hokage too.
> 
> ...




Edit:
The Gedu-dama
_key_


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

> [=StarWanderer;52471143]Well, it is clear for me now that you are Minato's fanboy. Sorry for hurting your fanboy feelings, man.


See who's talking. :rofl 


> But lets back on the topic. Since when Minato is obviously faster and better than Tobirama? Since mighty lord Hussain sayd so?


Since the manga showed that? 
Since Tobirama admitted with his mouth? 
since any sane person with any kind of basic reading comprehension can see Minato arrived before him.
Since anyone--- can comprehend something was shown and stated several damn times?   


> Obito shat on both Tobirama and BM Minato. But Tobirama at least did something.


Yeah, thankfully Kishi made the Gedu-dama so they don't kill the ET when he hit Tobirama.
and here is him trying to redirect the attack towards obito
Link removed
Yet he failed 
Link removed

and even his explosion tags jutsu did not hit obito! 


> He was fast enough to put FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito when they were close distance.


the explosion tags were inside of him. Much like how the bugs got obito when he tried to suck Turen in, not because he was fast. lol 


> BM Minato, however, did nothing, was blitzed and lost his arm in the process. Plus, Tobirama seemingly didnt try to dodge Juubito, since he used his Kamikaze-style.


Yeah, losing an arm is better than getting your body torn apart. 
and I'm not sure from where you came with your other fan fiction. 


> And keep in mind it was a BM Minato. I can imagine how fast Tobirama would have been compare to Minato if he had Kurama's half.


1- that was KCM, if you can't comprehend even the different between the two, it's not a surprise you can't comprehend the different between losing an arm, and losing an entire body.  

2- You still don't have the basic reading comprehend of differentiating between obito who was not in control, and one who was in control of his power. lol 



> Fanboish attitude. You will ignore the fact it is unknown how they defeated him? Fine. Keep doing that.


See who's talking about fanboying attitude. lol 

Aren't you ignoring the fact that ARE KNOWN to you? 
you think losing an arm is worst than losing an entire body.
you think mindless obito is greater than obito in his full power or the same
you think KCM = BM 
....etc 

what different would it make to you whether or not if you know what happened? Perhaps except for
making more excuses?


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2014)

Let's break this retarded Minato 8 Gated Gai uber speed feat down..

Panel 1: Kakashi, Minato, Lee, Gaara formulating a plan
Link removed

Panel 2) Notice several pages earlier. Gai has already begun his attack
Link removed

Panel 3 & 4: Gai attacking Juudara
Link removed
Link removed

Panel 5) Lee throws kunai - Lee was far away from the battle to begin with. He moved damn near faster then Gai to make up serious ground or can throw the kunai 900mph. See panel 8 to see how far Gai was from Madara
Link removed

Panel 6) Minato uses FTG to teleport in and out. You know an instatanious second
Link removed

Panel 7) Gaara and Kakashi in front of 8 gated Gai who didnt slow down people say? Shit Gaara sound is 8 gaited Gai speed to close from such a distance away
Link removed

Panel 8) Look how far Gai was away from Madara. Gaara sand and lee 6 gated speem + kunai throwing speed to close a lot of distance > 8 gaited Gai
Link removed

Gaaras sand speed + Kunai speed is much faster then Minato..look i mean it's canon right

So Gai was already in the process of attacking Madara while those 4 were standing around formulating a plan. They obviously started to move before Gai was going for the final blow or it makes no sense otherwise. No possible way for them to make up that much distance on 8 Gaited Gai if they did not move before hand or he slowed down


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

:rofl :rofl :rofl

Link removed
"It's ok, I am here too. I'll have Kakashi keep my Kunai" 

I would have sworn if it were Tobirama though. 

> Tobirama gets his ass handled to him by kin and gin who are not even known for speed
> Minato dodge A's attacks who was known to be the fastest.
> Tobirama get destroyed by Obito
> Tobirama's fans: Wow, great reflexes! you would wonder where was that to save himself.

#Logic #Tobirama solos # kin&Gin #Darui


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

> Evening Elephant (Sekizou) (p. 263)
> A-rank; Offensive; Close-range
> User: Might Guy
> 
> ...



Let's just ignore the manga, so Tobirama can appear good.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> :rofl :rofl :rofl
> 
> Link removed
> "It's ok, I am here too. I'll have Kakashi keep my Kunai"
> ...



Lee
Link removed

We don't know the circumstances of the kin/gin fight nor the 20elite squad. No point in bringing it up since it took a while division of shining + support + Intel

Comparing Juubito & Ei...please stop trolling


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 15, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Yes you would be correct with KCM that was my typo however Tobirama is leagues better at sensing then base Minato
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If he was capable he would not take that amount of damage he could have simply tagged juubito in exhange for an arm but he lost half his body not an ideal situation..

Yes he was able to attack but he almost never defended himself not against hashiramas gates not against hashiramas branches not against tobiramas explosion....dont you find it odd that juubito who was able to blitz ems sasuke couldnt react to casual mokuton branches? or that he couldnt break the branches in the time tobirama screamed fourth and sau jump? or when the tags were flying towards him ? do u believe that process is so fast juubito cannot react?

He had the mindset of a wild animal who when locked on with killing intent used his power to harm with no regard to consequences or defending himself..

yes he could hirashin back but he did not realize the jump in ability would be so severe and not to mention obito calling him sensei fazed him..

Yes you call that feat out for its inconsistency yet you conveniently ignore the fact that minato displayed feats easily capable of reaching the orb before it exploded..hell he has the feat of outrunning an explosion point blank....and yet we have tobirama who has been stated to have an inferior shunshin shunshin to minato before minato can use ftg...make a clone grab the guodama teleport behind a much superior juubito and slam it into him before he can even move...even though it was stated clones are slower with ftg....its the nature of an interception feat its inconsistent

and u conveniently ignored this..

not to mention tobirama using ftg sneak attack from behind could not touch sm madara once
Link removed
Link removed
ftg prevented the advantage of any dojutsu precog... even with the element of surprise and using ftg to position himself into a blindspot he was not able to touch madara something inexperienced ems sasuke accomplished with his basic movements and kenjutsu ....so plz dont try to portray tobirama as the reflexive superior at best they are on the same level

sm madara was getting tagged in cqc by an inexperienced ems sasuke..
Link removed

same ems sasuke who was blitzed by mindless juubito here and saved by minato..
Link removed
dont act like only minatos feat is inconsistent


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 15, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Let's break this retarded Minato 8 Gated Gai uber speed feat down..
> 
> Panel 1: Kakashi, Minato, Lee, Gaara formulating a plan
> Link removed
> ...



They are not racing guy...lee threw the kunai in the path of gai while using his gated strength ...do u have any panels of gaaras sand outpacing gai no ...Link removed here we have in canon gaara saying his sand is lower then madara..in exchange minato says thats why he is here he gave his kunai to kakashi so he probably teleported kakashi and the sand there..and lets not ignore that fact this is a common thing with interception feats so get off ur high horse and apply the same criteria to tobiramas interception feat..


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 15, 2014)

If you believe Minato is stronger than Darui + TenTen, then its safe to assume that you believe Minato is stronger than Tobirama. 

Minato is better than Tobirama in all facets not named ninjutsu (which is useless).


----------



## Cognitios (Dec 15, 2014)

> If you believe Minato is stronger than Darui + TenTen, then its safe to assume that you believe Minato is stronger than Tobirama.
> 
> Minato is better than Tobirama in all facets not named ninjutsu (which is useless).



That's the most screwed up a > b > c i've seen from anyone whose name doesn't start with Hu and end with ain
You know full well that a > b > c logic doesn't work in this manga.

Kin / Gin are fully dependent on knowledge or no. Full knowledge or even some knowledge on them is essential, that and no knowledge and going in alone is almost suicide. Minato wouldn't have performed any better against Kin/Gin + their squad.

Since there is no knowledge on who was in the squad it's open to interpretation. It could be from the 3rd Raikage + 19 Darui level shinobi to 20 shino level shinobi. 

Arguing over a battle you didn't see so you can't infer from it is baseless and honestly i expected better from the one minato fan i actually semi respect.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 15, 2014)

Edo Minato > tobirama with Edo tensei > alive minato = Tobirama with Edo tensei restricted


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 15, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Edo Minato > tobirama with Edo tensei > alive minato = Tobirama with Edo tensei restricted



Edo Tensei is a non factor against minato


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> If you believe Minato is stronger than Darui + TenTen, then its safe to assume that you believe Minato is stronger than Tobirama.
> 
> Minato is better than Tobirama in all facets *not named ninjutsu (which is useless).*



@Bold: That makes no sense. 

- It's Darui and Ino I believe. 




Complete_Ownage said:


> Lee
> Link removed
> 
> We don't know the circumstances of the kin/gin fight nor the 20elite squad. No point in bringing it up since it took a while division of shining + support + Intel
> ...



- OK? 
Why does it count when Tobirama does something even if he got shat on, but it does not when the others
accomplish their own feats?  

- Again, We know that Tobirama is not even in their tier as his student pointed out that there is no way they can win, even if they ambushed them. Tobirama did not disagree with that since he did taste their power beating his ass with a pack up from the 2nd Raikage.  

The different between Minato and Tobirama is, foes flee on sight when seeing Minato. On the other hand, foes do track Tobirama, and he is the one who flees. lol

- Comparing V1 Obito to V2 Obito, and 8th Gate Gai! Please stop trolling.  
comparing losing half of a body to losing 1 arm to a superior foe


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Edo Minato > tobirama with Edo tensei > alive minato = Tobirama with Edo tensei restricted



What is his fodder ET going to accomplish? 
Oro with superior ET was stated to be weaker than Minato, and you think Tobirama's fodder ET is going to do jack shit to Minato who kills hundreds of people in seconds? lol 

Also, Minato is a sealing jutsu master, you know? The Anti-ET thing? pfff
How is Tobirama going to control them with Minato's contract seal in play?

Since you gave Tobirama the ability to summon ET even though it needs sacrifices,
what stops Minato of summoning the frogs and gaining endless SM? 
What is Tobirama going to do against that?

(Not as if Minato needs SM to beat him, he's in a completely different level than someone who can't even deal with 20 fodders with back up)


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> They are not racing guy...lee threw the kunai in the path of gai while using his gated strength ...do u have any panels of gaaras sand outpacing gai no ...Hanzo avoided an attack of similar shape and scale here we have in canon gaara saying his sand is lower then madara..in exchange minato says thats why he is here he gave his kunai to kakashi so he probably teleported kakashi and the sand there..and lets not ignore that fact this is a common thing with interception feats so get off ur high horse and apply the same criteria to tobiramas interception feat..



Gaara mentions his sand is not as fast as Gai however the panel sequence shows Gaara & Kakashsi ahead of Gai who was already attacking Madara and was realitvly far back. So this mean 1) Gai slowed down 2) Gaara sand is faster then Gai. 

I do agree with you that it would make sense if Minato teleported Gaara & kakashi via the marked kunai but how would he accomplish such a feat? That just means he would of had to have a seal somewhere on the battlefield between the two(which nothing indicates he did). Like I said it's probably because Gaara & lee had moved before Gai's final blows.

What high horse? I am not downplaying the interception feat. He got in and got out just as planned. Somethign you would expect from an FTG user who is fast


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - OK?
> Why does it count when Tobirama does something even if he got shat on, but it does not when the others
> accomplish their own feats?



Like mentioned before numerous times it was Tobirams choice to get blitzed as he was testing the durablity and power of the jin. He explains it several panels later. Not that hard to understand if you read past one panel



> - Again, We know that Tobirama is not even in their tier as his student pointed out that there is no way they can win, even if they ambushed them. Tobirama did not disagree with that since he did taste their power beating his ass with a pack up from the 2nd Raikage.



They ambushed the two durring a peace treaty. HUGE difference in circumstances. We have zero knowledge on the ability of the 20 man squad. All we know it was a trained unit of highly skilled shinobi to track down and take out stronger opponents. 


> The different between Minato and Tobirama is, foes flee on sight when seeing Minato. On the other hand, foes do track Tobirama, and he is the one who flees. lol



Yes comparing a bunch of fodder fleeing from Minato to a highly trained squad with two phsyco half jins 

Please tell me again how Minato would do if he had to stay and fight those two along with a dozen more? The best he would do is give his life via Shiki Fūjin 



> - Comparing V1 Obito to V2 Obito, and 8th Gate Gai! Please stop trolling.
> comparing losing half of a body to losing 1 arm to a superior foe



You really can't be that stupid


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> If you believe Minato is stronger than Darui + TenTen, then its safe to assume that you believe Minato is stronger than Tobirama.
> 
> Minato is better than Tobirama in all facets not named ninjutsu (which is useless).



The only catergories Minato has over Tobirama is Speed/taijutsu & Fūinjutsu. Pretty sure Tobirama wins in the stamina, intelligence, Power, ninjutsu department


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 15, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Please tell me again how Minato would do if he had to stay and fight those two along with a dozen more? The best he would do is give his life via Shiki



If it was Minato. He would've used the flying thunder god jutsu to teleport his entire team the heck out of there and back to the village. 

Too bad Tobirama wasn't smart enough to think of this. And you say he's more intelligent lol.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> If it was Minato. He would've used the flying thunder god jutsu to teleport his entire team the heck out of there and back to the village.
> 
> Too bad Tobirama wasn't smart enough to think of this. And you say he's more intelligent lol.



How hard is it to understand we do not know the circumstances of that fight. We know Tobirama had a seal on the hokage mountain prior to his death. If it was that easy he would have. Could have been low on chakra since the more people required to move equals more chakra needed and or the FTG seal does not work from that far away. At this point it's anyones guess

Wasn't Minatos three body guards who could use FTG in combination move Mei damn near a continent awayor was she closer then that?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 16, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> The only catergories Minato has over Tobirama is Speed/taijutsu & Fūinjutsu. Pretty sure Tobirama wins in the stamina, intelligence, Power, ninjutsu department



Not sure where you getting that Tobirama is better than Minato in stamina, intelligence, or power to be exact. Minato has better stamina feats by surpressing the Kyuubi during Kushina's labor for hours then completing a fight with Obito and the Kyuubi. In terms of intelligence, Minato displayed far better intelligence due to his quick thinking during the Juubidara fight. In terms of power, Minato was able to slice the Hachibi's tentacles with a mere kunai. 

The only decent argument you have is ninjutsu, which Tobirama has more quantity of, but of lesser quality. Those B-ranked suitons look real scary


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Dec 16, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> *KCM doesn't improve your reflexes, that's fanfic.* Never once was that ever stated or indicated in the manga. All it does is boost your foot speed. KCM Naruto was getting kicked in the face by Han, and smacked around by the other Jinchuuriki, Tobi was also still superior to Naruto in close quarter combat. Sage mode gives Naruto better reflexes and better perception ability, allowing him to sense danger faster and react better. Naruto even stated that sage mode is better in this regard.
> 
> They aren't equal in hiraishin in the slightest either, the 4th databook makes that very clear on multiple occasions. Evidence by the fact that minato was the one who had to prepare all the markings, make the most saves and having to allow Tobirama to link himself with minato, in order to provide him access with his hiraishin link. Only reason minato may have looked slightly inferior is due to the handicap of having 1 arm. Before minato lost his arm, Tobirama was giving him all the praise and minato was performing well. Unless people actually think 1 arm minato should be equal to Tobirama, then thats quite the compliment to minato then.
> 
> Tobirama cannot teleport at will, quite the misconception. In a battle between the 2, minato comes fully prepared with dozens of FTG kunai. Which he spreads across the battlefield. Tobiramas usage of FTG is only ever handling at max one FTG kunai. That's where the major difference between the two is. Minato overwhelms him in combat because of this, creating various attack and escape options.  Minato can literally come from any side, which Tobirama cannot react to.



Can base Naruto react or perceive Ei's full speed?

If so, does base Naruto have better reactions and reflexes than Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke, who needed his sharingan to track V1 Ei?


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 16, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> If you believe Minato is stronger than Darui + TenTen, then its safe to assume that you believe Minato is stronger than Tobirama.
> 
> Minato is better than Tobirama in all facets not named ninjutsu (which is useless).



while i agree tobiramas death was dissapointing ninjutsu useless....and where did tenten come from?


----------



## Legend777 (Dec 16, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It may sound ridiculous, buts it's literally the only logic accusation lol. It's not possible to be blitzed by an opponent from 20ft away, but after being hit be able to tag them 4 times in a foot radius with a single arm. The speed to tag an entity as fast as Juubito that many times during a shunshin already his hand speed multiple times faster then KCM Minato as he was hardly able to react to Juubitos arm speed with his own, let alone tag him 4 times unnoticed.
> 
> What you don't understand is that there really would be no evident speed difference between uncontrollable and controllable Juubito. The main difference is that Juubito is aware of abilities and isn't going to try to kill himself. He's going to fight tactically and make the best use of his techniques. That doesn't necessarily mean he moves quicker in a straight line, it just means that if a Shinobi were to actually battle each, sustained Juubito would be much harder . Now to add on to this, you seem to not fully grasp the battle situation between what happened with Tobi and Minato. Tobirama didn't get the luxury of battling a Juubito who only used arm speed, he was outright rushed by Juubito the moment he entered battle. Im pretty sure you realized that Juubito never used shunshin against Minato.... The difference between using shunshin and not is the difference between KCM Naruto being overwhelmed by V2 jin that base Kakashi could react to, and KCM Naruto outspeeding a top speed V2 flicker by Ay. So in actuality , Tobirama faced a faster entity then what Minato did considering all Juubito did was swing his staff once( which resulted in a missing arm) and tag Minato casually. While Tobirama reacted( 4 times in less then a foot of movement) to a shunshin. & THEN let me add on the fact that nobody here is claiming that Tobirama > anything to KCM Minato, and KCM MINATO was the one getting blitzed by Juubito and the one that was slower to react to Tobirama in a direct comparison. KCM increases reactions and speed substantially btw.?



If he could tag him 5 times before he could move a  feet then why would he say the following :



If he could physically tag him , then he should have a much easier time mentally reacting to Juubito but he himself acknowledges he'd get blitzed if tried to get close to him one more time.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 16, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Gaara mentions his sand is not as fast as Gai however the panel sequence shows Gaara & Kakashsi ahead of Gai who was already attacking Madara and was realitvly far back. So this mean 1) Gai slowed down 2) Gaara sand is faster then Gai.
> 
> I do agree with you that it would make sense if Minato teleported Gaara & kakashi via the marked kunai but how would he accomplish such a feat? That just means he would of had to have a seal somewhere on the battlefield between the two(which nothing indicates he did). Like I said it's probably because Gaara & lee had moved before Gai's final blows.
> 
> What high horse? I am not downplaying the interception feat. He got in and got out just as planned. Somethign you would expect from an FTG user who is fast



He had the kunai he threw near madara when he attempted the rasengan the mention of giving the kunai to kakashi after gaaras admission of inferiority i speed and minatos confidencein his ftg reactions make it basically a done deal that he teleported kakashi there..

and i meant u were considering the feat ridiculous as an interception feat and claiming tobis interception feat as gospel


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 16, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Can base Naruto react or perceive Ei's full speed?
> 
> If so, does base Naruto have better reactions and reflexes than Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke, who needed his sharingan to track V1 Ei?



Naruto has the speed. That's what allows him to react. In base even if he can react, his body wouldn't physically be able to in that form, because he wouldn't be fast enough.

KCM isn't like lightning chakra that increases you synapses and nerve transmissions. It just gives Naruto incredible foot speed. Not once did Ay blitz a motionless KCM Naruto. Naruto was always already on then move, so he always had the time to react.

When Ay tried to blitz Tobi, his body can't physically react, hence why he resorts to kamui. Ay's speed isn't un-traceable, it's just difficult for ones body to physically react to. Sasuke could still follow his movements, but his body could react to him, hence why he needed Susanoo armor and Amaterasu shield. 

Naruto was never in a position where he was still/immobile with Ay attempting to blitz him. He was always moving, hence giving him the speed advantage to move. Look at KCM Narutos reactions against Tobi/Obito completely manhandled him in CQC, despite being slower than KCM Naruto. Narutos reactions weren't up to scratch. Sage narutoo who can sense danger and has better perception would've done better in that scenario.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 16, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> The only catergories Minato has over Tobirama is Speed/taijutsu & Fūinjutsu. Pretty sure Tobirama wins in the stamina, intelligence, Power, ninjutsu department



Stamina its pretty much comparable..no stamina feats from tobirama that outclass minatos..
Regarding general battle intelect and experience sure ill give it to tobirama but in tactics and analytical ability ill give minato the edge his performance with no knowledge against obito and kamui was simply insane..he decoded the technique utilized the counter exploited the weakness with an inferior space time technique while his opponent had knowledge and surprise..power minato was able to strike a kunai with such force he cut bees tentacle and destroyed the ground below with a simple strike so much so bee feared for a s life while in the lightning shroud but i think tobirama could be comparable...ninjutsu tobirama has  suiton and et while minato has very versatile space time tech such as spacetime barrier, ftg v2 summonings such as ma and pa and fuuinjutsu but ill give tobirama the edge in versatlity


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 16, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Stamina its pretty much comparable..no stamina feats from tobirama that outclass minatos..
> Regarding general battle intelect and experience sure ill give it to tobirama but in tactics and analytical ability ill give minato the edge his performance with no knowledge against obito and kamui was simply insane..he decoded the technique utilized the counter exploited the weakness with an inferior space time technique while his opponent had knowledge and surprise..power minato was able to strike a kunai with such force he cut bees tentacle and destroyed the ground below with a simple strike so much so bee feared for a s life while in the lightning shroud but i think tobirama could be comparable...ninjutsu tobirama has  suiton and et while minato has very versatile space time tech such as spacetime barrier, ftg v2 summonings such as ma and pa and fuuinjutsu but ill give tobirama the edge in versatlity



I would never give Tobirama the edge in versatility. Not from what we know anyway.

He has a featless Edo Tensei that's apparently lower than part 1 orochimaru level of fodder edos. 

So disregarding that, we have:

FTG - Minatos version is much more versatile and useful in battle, plus he invented more space time techniques around it
Water style - Minato has toads that use water style
Shadow clones - again minato uses this too
Sensing - minato also has and sage. Sensing.

Then people don't factor into account that all toads of mount myoboku are available to minato. Toads also have long range jutsu and cause massive destruction with techniques like Mayhem jutsu. All have variety of techniques.'gourd toad, scroll toad, sage toads, giant toads. Then you have the feared sealing jutsu of the Uzumaki clan, which people always forget. 

Rasenagn is also the most efficient and versatile jutsu for close combat and taijutsu, which can be created in an instant and formed with either hand, without use of hand seals. 

Tobirama may have invented a bunch of jutsu, but we only know a couple of them. Minatos moveset makes him way more versatile in combat. He was the student of jiraya after all, jiraya being arguably the one of the most versatile character in the manga I'm terms of jutsu variety.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 16, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> He had the kunai he threw near madara when he attempted the rasengan the mention of giving the kunai to kakashi after gaaras admission of inferiority i speed and minatos confidencein his ftg reactions make it basically a done deal that he teleported kakashi there..
> 
> and i meant u were considering the feat ridiculous as an interception feat and claiming tobis interception feat as gospel



Do you have the link of where or when Minato threw the kunai? Can not look right now
Found it:
Link removed

This would make sense if madara is standing in the general area the kuna was thrown. It could be plausable since the kuna was near the god tree and the last attack we see madara being blown past the god tree. 


I am not saying the feat is ridiculous at all. I am simply pointing out what happened. If anything Lee should be the most impressive. Minato has better feats then that. Teleporting to a kunai and teleporting out in a second is to be expected


----------



## Trojan (Dec 16, 2014)

Honestly, Tobirama is one of the weakest Kages out there no matter how you put it. He's just severely overrated to an insane degree. We have never seen a Kage that cannot handle 20 fodders other than him, and probably the 2nd Raikage. 

We know Minato was able to destroy entire armies alone. We know the 3rd Raikage was able to fight 10k, and foguth the Hachibi. We saw the Mizukage take on Gaara and Onoki and a lot of the SA even though he was not fighting them seriously, and so on and so forth. 

Tobirama was not developed from the start, and that's why Kishi gave him a lot of asspulls to give some importance to him. However, while doing so, he made sure to state that his jutsus are not on the same level as those who originally were the only users of said jutsus. 

We saw that when he was given the ET, Kabuto stated directly that him and Oro are superior  users to Tobirama. When he was given FTG, it was stated like 5 times that he's an inferior user to Minato. The Databook also states that Hiruzen since a young age showed talent that surpasses/more than Tobirama 



> Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hidden (I think it means Clan based techniques), Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member




Kishi made Tobirama a stone to where the jutsus where developed, but all those who came after him surpassed him and took those jutsus to COMPLETELY different level. 

FTG in Tobirama's hand can't deal with 20 fodders. In Minato's hand however, it destroys armies.
ET in Tobirama's hand can't really use the people's power, but they are only for explosion tags, and he can only
summon few. However, Oro and Kabuto developed it so they can use those people's power.

Do I even need to mention the clones and Naruto? The guy who made this jutsus able to defeat Kages? 

That's how I view Tobirama at least, even his role in this war, was only some few teleportations, and that's about it.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Honestly, Tobirama is one of the weakest Kages out there no matter how you put it. He's just severely overrated to an insane degree. We have never seen a Kage that cannot handle 20 fodders other than him, and probably the 2nd Raikage.
> 
> We know Minato was able to destroy entire armies alone. We know the 3rd Raikage was able to fight 10k, and foguth the Hachibi. We saw the Mizukage take on Gaara and Onoki and a lot of the SA even though he was not fighting them seriously, and so on and so forth.
> 
> ...



I completely disagree that he is one of the weakest kage not even close yes he has some dissapointing battles in the past but what he showed in the war put him firmly as high kage...kishimoto firmly showed through the hokages entrance that they were the strongest kage...sasukes,takas and oros reaction to tobiramas mere aura should tell you he sees tobirama as a greater threat then any of the gokage..


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 16, 2014)

^^ Just ignore the troll

At least you have solid arguments


----------



## Trojan (Dec 16, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> I completely disagree that he is one of the weakest kage not even close yes he has some dissapointing battles in the past but what he showed in the war put him firmly as high kage...kishimoto firmly showed through the hokages entrance that they were the strongest kage...sasukes,takas and oros reaction to tobiramas mere aura should tell you he sees tobirama as a greater threat then any of the gokage..



Note: I have a final tomorrow, so I want be able to go back and forth as of now. With that being said,

let's see what does he have compare to the others.

If we take a look at his jutsus, they are only weaker version. As I provide already about FTG  it mentions over and over again, that he is inferior. However, most people think "oh, this jutsu has the same name, so they must be equal " So, they give him credits that he does not even deserve. The same thing was said for his ET, as well from Kabuto and Chiyo, and even Madara. I don't have time to bring links now, but perhaps if you do not know that those statements exist, I might, later, bring them to you. 

Now, compare to the other Kages (That we know their abilities), what does Tobirama have to stand in front of the exactly? Kishi portrayed him to be inferior to them, over and over again, people just do not get it, and usually they need Kishi to slap them in the face directly so they "might" get it. Just like a lot of things they were denying. Regardless, 

I prepared this before, thankfully,



> As for Tobirama and his battle with the Kinkaku's unit. Usually the argument is "they are highly skilled" as Tobirama stated [1]. However, the manga showed us those types of shinobi throughout the series and how they are treated, so other than Kinkaku and ginkaku, who are actually named characters and were shown in panel, I don't see why would the other 18 be any different than what we have seen throughout the manga so far.
> 
> Let's start from the village of sound, we have seen even Shikamaru as a *genin* was able to capture 8 of them by himself[2] and he was still a child. Then we can see people like Asuma can take them down without any problems at all [3]. Here's Sasuke as well defeating hundreds of them by himself without a scratch [4] even with the Course Seal that make's them much more powerful [5] than the normal fodders [6].
> 
> ...



As you can see, the problem was most certainly with Kin and Gin who destroyed Tobirama. Now, unlike those Kages who were able to fight against MUCH more than Tobirama did, and actually win, how is Tobirama's defeat impressive or make him look superior to them is beyond me! 

Those 2 (Kin & Gin) who fodderized Tobirama, were defeated by DARUI! For God's sake! 
and people want to put this clown in the same level as Minato who was handling A & B at the same time by himself, the strongest Tag-Team on Kumo! 

As for this War, mostly, all of what Tobirama did is only teleporting! 
1- Teleporting Naruto to attack Obito (Tobirama did not do the attack himself)
2- Teleporting Minato and Naruto (again, he did not do the attack himself)
3- Teleporting the fodders from the Tree's root
4- Switching places with Minato. However, this jutsu needs 2 FTG users, and he stated that the clones' FTG is 2 slow. In addition to that, it also require a third party to do the attack, so it's really useless by himself, or won't be accomplished this smoothly. 

That was most of Tobirama's role in the war. A supporter character mainly. Sure, he can blow himself up with his explosion tags, but that will kill him.






> "Relentlessly violent detonations of explosion tags
> Reducing even tough armours to dust
> 
> Tags that summon more tags that then explode - a special explosion tag.
> ...



He can use it with ET obviously, but that needs to give advantages since the ET itself needs sacrifices other people to summon another souls. And since those Kages can take on so many Ninja at once, how trouble would it be for them to deal with some severely weakened fodders? 
(Remember how week Hashirama and Tobirama were when summoned by Oro in part 1, and Tobirama sucks even more) 

Had he been that overwhelming, I don't see how would he lose, not once, but twice against people of Kin and Gin's level EVEN WITH BACK UP! 


I know it hurts, but thing is the guy is severely overrated, and his level for sure is below kin/gin's level which is not that high mind you!


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 16, 2014)

^lmao I just spit water all over my keyboard


----------



## Trojan (Dec 16, 2014)

Of course you would, you're a Tobirama fan for God's sake. 

Do you deny that he got almost killed when he was against them with the 2nd Raikage?
Sage Mode offers some kind of ambiguous boost to reaction time through chakra sensing and Kawazu Kumite
Sage Mode offers some kind of ambiguous boost to reaction time through chakra sensing and Kawazu Kumite

Do you deny it was too much for him even with 6 of his students?
Sage Mode offers some kind of ambiguous boost to reaction time through chakra sensing and Kawazu Kumite

Do you deny that he got defeated, and ultimately killed?
Sage Mode offers some kind of ambiguous boost to reaction time through chakra sensing and Kawazu Kumite
Sage Mode offers some kind of ambiguous boost to reaction time through chakra sensing and Kawazu Kumite

Or do you deny that they were only 20 people of them?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Dec 16, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Naruto has the speed. That's what allows him to react. In base even if he can react, his body wouldn't physically be able to in that form, because he wouldn't be fast enough.
> 
> KCM isn't like lightning chakra that increases you synapses and nerve transmissions. It just gives Naruto incredible foot speed. Not once did Ay blitz a motionless KCM Naruto. Naruto was always already on then move, so he always had the time to react.
> 
> ...



If KCM mode didn't boost reactions and perception, Naruto would have spent the entire war arc crashing into walls.  This was covered exhaustively with the talk of chidori users movements outstripping their perception, and applies to Lee as well, when he mentioned that he would never rush with his full speed toward the enemy, because he would crash into an unseen counter.  

For Naruto to perceive Ei's full speed, or what Minato and Tobirama are doing and be of any help, he has to at least recognize what's going on in front of him.  Sage mode has greater sensing and perception ability than KCM mode, and I'm not debating that.  But to say KCM does nothing for Naruto's reactions is to say that base Naruto has perception on the level of 3 tomoe sharingan, Raiton no Yoroi Ei, and Minato "I can watch Ei tickle my nose before I warp away" Minato for absolutely no reason at all.  This is why people naturally grant Naruto some measure of enhanced reactions in his super mode.

When you say something like, "Tobi's body couldn't physically react to Ay, so he used kamui" Tobi is still reacting.  He percieves Ei's attack, and activates his kamui as a conscious response to Ei's punch.  What allows him to do that is his sharingan, which allows him to predict and perceive Ei's punch in slow motion.  Naruto doesn't have that advantage.  Furthermore, Ei is moving during a shunshin, which even a genin version is described by the databook as movement so fast the eye can't even perceive it, causing the illusion of the target disappearing.  When you mention that Naruto was always moving quickly, that strengthens the point.  If Naruto had normal reflexes and perception, he would be unable to perceive the world around him, and never notice what Ei was doing.  Let alone block.  

So again, Naruto either has naturally super amazing perception that rivals magic eyes, or his KCM power up is power up his senses and perception and reflexes.  Since base Naruto has never demonstrated any special perceptive ability, it's safe to assume it comes from his super mode.  Also KCM mode does give you some form of sensing.  It also affords various random strange powers.  It's not a stretch to assume it affords you the power to not hurt yourself with your other powers, instead of retroactively attributing Naruto the unstated ability track shunshin with eyeballs sometime after Wave Arc.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Do you deny that he got almost killed when he was against them with the 2nd Raikage?
> sometime after Wave Arc.
> sometime after Wave Arc.



So they ambushed Tobirama and the 2nd raikage when they were pre-occupid with something else. Highly comparable to a fight when you get ambushed against two physco gins who carry the tools of the sage

Does that make black zetsu superior to Juudara? I mean he killed him right? You know kind of the same situation when one does expect an attack




> Do you deny it was too much for him even with 6 of his students?
> sometime after Wave Arc.



Your point. We do not know the power levels of said members at this point nore the condition or circumstances of the fight

Glad you can make up imaginary "fodder" levels of those 20 shinobi



> Do you deny that he got defeated, and ultimately killed?
> sometime after Wave Arc.
> sometime after Wave Arc.
> 
> Or do you deny that they were only 20 people of them?



He got killed big deal. Surronded by twently highly skilled shinobi trained to track down and take out stronger opponents. We have ZERO knowledge of what took prior, durring or after the event. Keep calling them Fodder if you wish. If Minato had to stay and fight them he would get his shit pushed in aswell

So what if I am a Tobirama fan. I aknowledge Minatos accomplishments and don't downplay them. I simply do not troll his character like you do Minato

I prefer Itachi over Minato doesn't mean I don't recognize that Minato is superior


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 16, 2014)

> Since the manga showed that?
> Since Tobirama admitted with his mouth?
> since any sane person with any kind of basic reading comprehension can see Minato arrived before him.
> Since anyone--- can comprehend something was shown and stated several damn times?



Manga showed that Tobirama has faster reflexes and combat speed. Tobirama was fast enough to put a FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito when they were in close distance. BM Minato did nothing an lost his arm. And that was the same Juubito, with the same chakra and speed. You do the math. And i can write about that feat again, and again, and again. Because you have no logical counter to that. Tobirama had shown better combat speed and reflexes. He is better in that department. 

Tobirama admitted that Minato's teleportation techniques are better. Techniques speed in this case is *not* = to overall speed. 

A man with logic, with high iq, and with good Naruto knowledge, must know that Minato's arrival on battlefield proves only that his travel speed is better. It is better because his teleportation techniques are better than those of other Kage. But can he beat Hashirama, or, in our case, Tobirama with just travel speed? No he cant. Because his combat speed and reflexes are not good enough.

I wanna ask you. Who will be faster in a fight - Floyd Mayweather, or an olympic runner in the same weight class? 



> Yeah, thankfully Kishi made the Gedu-dama so they don't kill the ET when he hit Tobirama.
> and here is him trying to redirect the attack towards obito
> sometime after Wave Arc.
> Yet he failed
> ...



LOL, how long will you write posts i can easily counter? 

Anyway, lets back on topic. It is up to you to prove Juubito was not as fast when he confronted Tobirama as when he confronted Minato. The fact he didnt use Yin-Yan release to kill Edo Tobirama proves nothing. Maybe he just couldnt use his offencive capabilities, or he wasnt, as they say, "into" that new power. Maybe at that moment he didnt learn how to use Yin-Yan release to kill Edos.

He redirected it and he thought he got Obito. He thought that was enough. And why should he use tags again, when they were useless against Juubito before that? 

And, well, those attacks cant do anything to Juubi Jin, since they are not taijutsu, or senjutsu.

As i said, Juubito shat on both of them. But the difference is - Tobirama did something, BM Minato did nothing. 



> the explosion tags were inside of him. Much like how the bugs got obito when he tried to suck Turen in, not because he was fast. lol



How do you know those several explosives were like bugs when Tobirama didnt use his special attack at that moment?

Anyway, he was fast enough to pull explosives out of himself and put them on Juubito, plus put a FTG formula on him. Still very impressive.



> Yeah, losing an arm is better than getting your body torn apart.
> and I'm not sure from where you came with your other fan fiction.



Yeah, for Minato, who was much faster than base himself because of Bijuu Mode, it is better. He didnt lose half of his body, like Tobirama, who wasnt trying to dodge and wasnt empowered with Bijuu chakra that increase speed. 



> 1- that was KCM, if you can't comprehend even the different between the two, it's not a surprise you can't comprehend the different between losing an arm, and losing an entire body.
> 
> 2- You still don't have the basic reading comprehend of differentiating between obito who was not in control, and one who was in control of his power. lol



1. Ok, even if its KCM. So what? It still increased Minato's speed. Give that to Tovirama and lets see what he can do.

2. There is no proof Obito wasnt as fast in his fight with Tobirama as he was when he faced Minato. He may not be able to use his full Yin-Yan capabilities at that moment, but what about *his speed*?



> See who's talking about fanboying attitude. lol
> 
> Aren't you ignoring the fact that ARE KNOWN to you?
> you think losing an arm is worst than losing an entire body.
> ...



Losing a half of body is worse than losing an arm, sure. But:

1. Tobirama was fast enough to do at least something to Juubito, while KCM Minato wasnt.

2. Tobirama wasnt empowered with Bijuu Chakra that increase its users speed and reflexes. 

In terms of speed, there is no reason to seperate Juubito during Tobiramas confrontation and Juubito during Minatos confrontation. The same chakra, the same body. But i agree that Juubito couldnt use full Yin-Yan release potencial during his confrontation with Tobirama.

Ok, lets say Minato was in KCM. So what? 



> What do you think the staff is made out of, champ?



It was a staff, not a little sphere. And it was Obito who was sircling that staff with such a speed.



> Due to Gudōdama having the speed to nullify the jutsu before it makes contact with Obito.



Juubito has such a speed he can sircle that staff with such a speed. It was Juubito's speed feat. Plus, Juubito could intercept Sasuke's Amaterasu.

On your scans, Minato was as shocked as other kage. Proves nothing at all.

Thats all? Just a smile? 



> On the offensive you have less time to react mid-strike as opposed to merely warping in and out.



Well, Minato could teleport away just in time, but he failed.



> Not going to explain that moment again



No problem.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 16, 2014)

> [=Complete_Ownage;52478925]So they ambushed Tobirama and the 2nd raikage when they were pre-occupid with something else. Highly comparable to a fight when you get ambushed against two physco gins who carry the tools of the sage


Tobirama is a sensor. 



> Does that make black zetsu superior to Juudara? I mean he killed him right? You know kind of the same situation when one does expect an attack



Tobirama lost to them TWICE, the second of which was not attacking hm from behind. Also, It's not like of Tobirama believed that they are his allies. Completely different cases. 



> Your point. We do not know the power levels of said members at this point nore the condition or circumstances of the fight
> 
> Glad you can make up imaginary "fodder" levels of those 20 shinobi


Honestly, you only say that to make yourself feel better. We have seen the usual level of those fodders from all the nations. No one has ever complained about numbers EXCEPT for Tobirama.
All other true Kages were fighting WAY more than that. 



> He got killed big deal. Surronded by twently highly skilled shinobi trained to track down and take out stronger opponents. We have ZERO knowledge of what took prior, durring or after the event. Keep calling them Fodder if you wish. If Minato had to stay and fight them he would get his shit pushed in aswell


lol, obito when he activated the MS he killed dozens, of those WITHOUT a scratch. And they were jonin and ANBU as Zetsu said.

Please, don't compare Minato to someone not even near his level. I don't know what manga are you watching, because Minato was fodderizing those fodders for breakfast.  
In case you haven't seen the manga in a while, since his first "true" appearance in Kakashi Gaidan 
It was shown and stated directly that he kills them TOO EASILY. If you want me to bring you the scans/statement just ask, even though I am pretty sure you know them very well.  



> So what if I am a Tobirama fan. I aknowledge Minatos accomplishments and don't downplay them. I simply do not troll his character like you do Minato



It simply means you wont take something against YOUR favourite character. Even though I did not bring anything new to the table, I just posted the scan that was shown in the manga and stated. Those things show the differences in level between Minato and Tobirama.

For example: Minato fighting A & B BY HIMSELF. 
A stated that no one could surpass him. B was trembling from Minato's NAME. 

Tobirama fights Kin & Gin WITH BACK UP.
They say shit like "we floored him" "the dead ass 2nd Hokage" ...etc
even though they are a weaker team.

Minato fights hundreds and kill them in seconds, they even flee upon seeing him.
Tobirama fight 20 of people, and get himself killed. 

It's pretty damn obvious who's the manga presenting to be the superior one.  



> I prefer Itachi over Minato doesn't mean I don't recognize that Minato is superior


I won't judge.  

even though the differences in those situations are different. Itachi level is established in the manga to be around the Sannin level, he obviously get MASSIVELY overrated as well. Here, Tobirama BY HIS OWN MOUTH admitted that he is inferior to Minato directly as well, and so was stated in the Databook several times, yet people are still arrogant enough and see too much of themselves thinking they know better than Tobirama and/or Kishi themselves! 

Even though that goes with the theme of the manga that new generation > old generation. 
Yes, that's not always true, but it is in this case as the man admitted himself.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama is a sensor.



Does not mean he was sensing at the time



> Tobirama lost to them TWICE, the second of which was not attacking hm from behind. Also, It's not like of Tobirama believed that they are his allies. Completely different cases.



I was using the coup d'?tat as an example of when one does not expect to be attacked




> Honestly, you only say that to make yourself feel better. We have seen the usual level of those fodders from all the nations. No one has ever complained about numbers EXCEPT for Tobirama.
> All other true Kages were fighting WAY more than that.



So please provide scans on where they are mentioned as fodders and not an elite tracking force? I will wait till you have a leg to stand on




> Please, don't compare Minato to someone not even near his level. I don't know what manga are you watching, because Minato was fodderizing those fodders for breakfast.  lol, obito when he activated the MS he killed dozens, of those WITHOUT a scratch. And they were jonin and ANBU as Zetsu said.
> In case you haven't seen the manga in a while, since his first "true" appearance in Kakashi Gaidan



Yes let's compare MS obito + Hashi cells + Zetsu suit + Kumai  to 20 ninja




> It was shown and stated directly that he kills them TOO EASILY. If you want me to bring you the scans/statement just ask, even though I am pretty sure you know them very well.



Yes Minato kills a bunch of random fodders. Congrats so has sasuke and many of others. Fodders who have a flee on sighting order or an elite tracking force designed to hunt down strong shinobi. So comparable



> For example: Minato fighting A & B BY HIMSELF.
> A stated that no one could surpass him. B was trembling from Minato's NAME.



Yes and young ass bee could have put that kunai right into minatos gut. So a young bee outmanuaved Minato. K thanks for proving my point 



> Tobirama fights Kin & Gin WITH BACK UP.
> They say shit like "we floored him" "the dead ass 2nd Hokage" ...etc
> even though they are a weaker team.



Thats the general tone that the brothers speak in. You know how many villians trash talk lol



> Minato fights hundreds and kill them in seconds, they even flee upon seeing him.
> Tobirama fight 20 of people, and get himself killed.



Just keep posting this and it will slowly sink in that you are simply trolling yourself



> It's pretty damn obvious who's the manga presenting to be the superior one.
> 
> I won't judge.



Yes kishi did a fine job showing Edo Tobirama who was not brought back at full strength out reflexing KCM Minato, out showing him in intelligence and etc



> even though the differences in those situations are different. Itachi level is established in the manga to be around the Sannin level, he obviously get MASSIVELY overrated as well. Here, Tobirama BY HIS OWN MOUTH admitted that he is inferior to Minato directly as well, and so was stated in the Databook several times, yet people are still arrogant enough and see too much of themselves thinking they know better than Tobirama and/or Kishi themselves!



Praising someone for surpassing you in certain areas does not make them automatically stronger. Hell Kakashi, gai, naruto praise the hell out of everyone. 

Minato praises the hell out of Jiraiya not just for his jutsu but wisdom. That must make Jiraiya superior by your own logic



> Even though that goes with the theme of the manga that new generation > old generation.
> Yes, that's not always true, but it is in this case as the man admitted himself.



People still believe in this shit? Only a select few from the newer generation surpass the old. Hashirama/Madara/Trollkage/Muu/Tobirama etc etc would still shit on 90% of the shinobi world


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 16, 2014)

> lol, obito when he activated the MS he killed dozens, of those WITHOUT a scratch. And they were jonin and ANBU as Zetsu said.



Only because he merged with Zetsu.



> Tobirama lost to them TWICE, the second of which was not attacking hm from behind. Also, It's not like of Tobirama believed that they are his allies. Completely different cases.



And nobody knows how they beat him twice. Maybe they had a tool with which they can somehow counter Hiraishin, os something like that. We dont know the details of those 2 fights.



> For example: Minato fighting A & B BY HIMSELF.



Oh, such a feat! Minato was faster than a young Raikage, who, as a young one, does not have *ANY* feats! Amazing! Amazing! All heil Minato Allmighty! He was faster than a featless character way below his prime! 



> They say shit like "we floored him" "the dead ass 2nd Hokage" ...etc
> even though they are a weaker team.
> 
> Minato fights hundreds and kill them in seconds, they even flee upon seeing him.
> Tobirama fight 20 of people, and get himself killed.



Minato could fight unexperienced cannon fodders to get such a reputation. Tobirama, on the other hand, could fight 20 experienced, powerfull shinobi. And they could use some tricks to beat him. We just simply *dont know the details*.



> It's pretty damn obvious who's the manga presenting to be the superior one.



Yep, and thats Tobirama. At least in combat speed and reflexes department. Because he has better feats in the manga you are talking about.



> Here, Tobirama BY HIS OWN MOUTH admitted that he is inferior to Minato directly as well, and so was stated in the Databook several times, yet people are still arrogant enough and see too much of themselves thinking they know better than Tobirama and/or Kishi themselves!



No, it is you who is so arrogant. Because you seemingly dont care about the fact *ALL THOSE STATEMENTS* are *ONLY* about Hiraishin/Shunshin, not their speed and reflexes, or overall inferiority.



> Even though that goes with the theme of the manga that new generation > old generation.



No, not at all.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 17, 2014)

I got finals all this week. I won't be able to reply back to your post for awhile sabre.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 17, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If KCM mode didn't boost reactions and perception, Naruto would have spent the entire war arc crashing into walls.  This was covered exhaustively with the talk of chidori users movements outstripping their perception, and applies to Lee as well, when he mentioned that he would never rush with his full speed toward the enemy, because he would crash into an unseen counter.
> 
> For Naruto to perceive Ei's full speed, or what Minato and Tobirama are doing and be of any help, he has to at least recognize what's going on in front of him.  Sage mode has greater sensing and perception ability than KCM mode, and I'm not debating that.  But to say KCM does nothing for Naruto's reactions is to say that base Naruto has perception on the level of 3 tomoe sharingan, Raiton no Yoroi Ei, and Minato "I can watch Ei tickle my nose before I warp away" Minato for absolutely no reason at all.  This is why people naturally grant Naruto some measure of enhanced reactions in his super mode.
> 
> ...



Well Naruto did start off crashin into walls, then he got carelessly tripped by black zetsu and crashed into a tree later on. Got manhandled by Obito is close combat etc. you notice that after Kisame, Naruto didn't straight up blitz anyone again after that? Probably because of the tunnel vision, and the risk for being countered or hurt in the exchange.

Minato and tobiramas perception is above Narutos in KCM, way above. Minato and Tobirama can react while standing still. Naruto has to be moving in order to build the momentum to react. Again this doesn't mean that he couldn't react in base, only difference now is that with KCM, he'd physically be able to dodge it. While in base, he could at best block the attack.

Not saying tobi didn't react, but he's using a Mangekyou sharingan, that's way different. He basically saw Ay's attack in slow mo/saw it coming before Ay even made the attack. That's the power of the sharingan and the Mangekyou makes the perception ability even greater.  But despite that, his body speed isn't enough to evade Ay, so his instant intangibility is what allows him evade any speed blitz.

And yes Naruto does get sensing, which is very important. KCM Naruto gets negative emotion sensing. He essentially gains the ability to sense danger and killing intent coming his way. Again, that's down to sensing helping him react faster, nothing to do with his perception/reaction ability naturally increasing. If base Naruto had this ability, their reaction time would be the same. Was never stated if minato gained the same ability, it was hinted at being more of an Uzumaki thing anyway, since mito also had it.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 17, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> So they ambushed Tobirama and the 2nd raikage when they were pre-occupid with something else. Highly comparable to a fight when you get ambushed against two physco gins who carry the tools of the sage
> 
> Does that make black zetsu superior to Juudara? I mean he killed him right? You know kind of the same situation when one does expect an attack
> 
> ...



While i agree that the tracking team wasnt fodder i believe they were jounin level i mean even the anbu is considered konohas special squad..they sure werent on kakashi level or even elite jounin because they recieve special recognition among the villages..I am pretty sure minato backed up by the same team would have won he is much more suited to dealing with numbers...he spams ftg markers gives kunai to the team to spam uses seals on kinkaku and gingaku to disrupt their use of kyuubi chakra or even seal their kyuubi chakra can summon ma and pa for frog song ect..

I hope you agree that once marked minato could have killed bee if he wanted too please we saw that even v2 juubito was vulnerable to surprise attacks from a ftg mark...minato did not want to kill bee..bee put his sword in his back thinking an attack from behind could come that was smart i agree but minato could literally teleport to seven  striking positions before bee could move his arm..and a young bee and a were considered superior to kin and gin


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 17, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> While i agree that the tracking team wasnt fodder i believe they were jounin level i mean even the anbu is considered konohas special squad..they sure werent on kakashi level or even elite jounin because they recieve special recognition among the villages..I am pretty sure minato backed up by the same team would have won he is much more suited to dealing with numbers...he spams ftg markers gives kunai to the team to spam uses seals on kinkaku and gingaku to disrupt their use of kyuubi chakra or even seal their kyuubi chakra can summon ma and pa for frog song ect..



A>B>C logic hardly if ever works in a manga. So your going to compare the current fodder anbu's to an elite group designed to track down stronger shinobi. LOL

I did not know you had details of the events prior, durring, or after the event. Please share with the rest of the forum. I am also pretty sure Tobirama can deal with numbers just as well if not better then Minato trhough Edo Tesei. I mean he did create a jutsu to "wipe the battle area" clear. We also know that Tobirama has a seal on top of the hokage mountain prior to his death. Why not just teleport his team there? We have zero knowledge of the event. Tobirama could have been low on chakra for all we know and could not teleport his team to safety

So basically Tobirama stalled Kin/Gin and a handfull of shinobi while his team got away. Pretty boss if you ask me. 





> I hope you agree that once marked minato could have killed bee if he wanted too please we saw that even v2 juubito was vulnerable to surprise attacks from a ftg mark...minato did not want to kill bee..bee put his sword in his back thinking an attack from behind could come that was smart i agree but minato could literally teleport to seven  striking positions before bee could move his arm..and a young bee and a were considered superior to kin and gin



Minato not wanting to kill Bee has nothing to do with Bee getting the jump on Minato. Minato simply got out outmaneuvered in that situation..

Where is it stated that Raikage & young bee were superior to kin/gin


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Dec 17, 2014)

> Well Naruto did start off crashin into walls, then he got carelessly tripped by black zetsu and crashed into a tree later on.



Naruto got his foot stuck in the floor because he didn't anticipate the strength increase he got.  Zetsu was fighting Naruto, Mei, a mist swordsman, and bunch of Jonins all at the same time.  I wouldn't call Naruto's showing, "careless."  No more than Madara was careless when he was back stabbed by black Zetsu, despite having every power up and sensing ability.  Black Zetsu "is the earth," and legitimately that good.

He blitzed Zetsu all kinds of Zetsu in that fight, and his go to tactic remained rasengan variant blitzing.  

Minato and tobiramas perception is above Narutos in KCM, way above. Minato and Tobirama can react while standing still. Naruto has to be moving in order to build the momentum to react. Again this doesn't mean that he couldn't react in base, only difference now is that with KCM, he'd physically be able to dodge it. While in base, he could at best block the attack.

Can you show me an example of Base Naruto, prior to any god blessing, doing anything like reacting or recognizing an attack on the level of V2 Ei?


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> A>B>C logic hardly if ever works in a manga. So your going to compare the current fodder anbu's to an elite group designed to track down stronger shinobi. LOL
> 
> I did not know you had details of the events prior, durring, or after the event. Please share with the rest of the forum. I am also pretty sure Tobirama can deal with numbers just as well if not better then Minato trhough Edo Tesei. I mean he did create a jutsu to "wipe the battle area" clear. We also know that Tobirama has a seal on top of the hokage mountain prior to his death. Why not just teleport his team there? We have zero knowledge of the event. Tobirama could have been low on chakra for all we know and could not teleport his team to safety
> 
> ...




Mate we have no idea of the elite group...anbu are konohas special squad and they are a stronger village..we have no evidence to claim they were above jonin while elite jounin are specially recognized in the villages...now you are being stubborn ftg v2 and kunai spam ended battles in a flash...tobirama needs prep for edo tensei..ur making arguments that support tobirama while claiming we dont know what happened...fact is he was beaten by the squad and even with his own squad which included a young sarutobi concluded the futility of the situation..mind you young sarutobi believed he had surpassed tobirama and it included danzo...

Once a target is marked minato or tobirama can teleport to many different striking positions before the enemy can move at any point in time hence even juubito being vulnerable..if minato wanted to kill bee he could kill bee at any point in time..yes bee made a good decision guarding his back..

Raikage and young bee were stated to be kumos strongest tag team..

and while i agree we dont know the exact details for u to claim minato loses with certainty is also ....


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 18, 2014)

Young Sarutobi wasn't even young. The guy was somewhere around 25-30. Kagami was 25, Torifu was 30. They were all men and experienced. Hiruzen should've been in his early prime then.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Mate we have no idea of the elite group...anbu are konohas special squad and they are a stronger village..we have no evidence to claim they were above jonin while elite jounin are specially recognized in the villages...now you are being stubborn ftg v2 and kunai spam ended battles in a flash...tobirama needs prep for edo tensei..ur making arguments that support tobirama while claiming we dont know what happened...fact is he was beaten by the squad and even with his own squad which included a young sarutobi concluded the futility of the situation..mind you young sarutobi believed he had surpassed tobirama and it included danzo...
> 
> Once a target is marked minato or tobirama can teleport to many different striking positions before the enemy can move at any point in time hence even juubito being vulnerable..if minato wanted to kill bee he could kill bee at any point in time..yes bee made a good decision guarding his back..
> 
> Raikage and young bee were stated to be kumos strongest tag team..



We dont know the details of how they killed Tobirama. The same with Kinkaku and Ginkaku. Those things ar euseless in a debate since we dont know enough details to bring them here.

And Minato has no feats to compete with Tobirama, hands down.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Mate we have no idea of the elite group



Haven't I said that numerous times? Not to hard to comprehend



> ...anbu are konohas special squad and they are a stronger village..we have no evidence to claim they were above jonin while elite jounin are specially recognized in the villages...



What does being a superior village have to do about anything? Having a smaller village could only strengthen the team since it would jam pack the squad with it's strongest members. We have seen the anbu not contain the strongest members in the village due to it's mass size




> now you are being stubborn ftg v2 and kunai spam ended battles in a flash...tobirama needs prep for edo tensei..ur making arguments that support tobirama while claiming we dont know what happened...fact is he was beaten by the squad and even with his own squad which included a young sarutobi concluded the futility of the situation..mind you young sarutobi believed he had surpassed tobirama and it included danzo...



What arguments am I using to support Tobirama. I gave examples of WHAT could have happened or been the cause.  Minato did not have support from his fellow shinobi to spread out his kunai in the war? Still needs prep

Nowhere is it stated that Young Sarutobi concluded he surpassed Tobirama. It's takes no brain cells to figure out he was not including Tobirama in that statement. Danzo only confirms that several pages later

So let me get this straight. You think young Sarutobi surpassed Tobirama, So if this team was so godly strong why couldn't they handle a mere 20 shinobi. They should have wiped the floor with them. Well shit by your logic those 20 ninja must be kage level




> Once a target is marked minato or tobirama can teleport to many different striking positions before the enemy can move at any point in time hence even juubito being vulnerable..if minato wanted to kill bee he could kill bee at any point in time..yes bee made a good decision guarding his back..



Still fail to see your point. Minato simply got caught off guard and could have been seriously injured if Bee wanted to attack.




> Raikage and young bee were stated to be kumos strongest tag team..



Please provide the link because I can't find it



> and while i agree we dont know the exact details for u to claim minato loses with certainty is also



I said Minato would be defeated under the SAME conditions(whatever they were). As both shinobi have the capability to teleport there team to safety at any time just means something was not right.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

Base Minato has no impressive speed feats at all.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 19, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Edo Tensei is a non factor against minato



it is when tobirama can tag his edo's


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 19, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> it is when tobirama can tag his edo's



so?

Minato is a sealing jutsu expert remember.

Contract seal removes the users control over a summon. (Makes the contract invalid)

Minato teleports away from the explosion, like he already did in the freakin manga.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 19, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> so?
> 
> Minato is a sealing jutsu expert remember.
> 
> ...



I don't see minato hitting another FTG user with contract seal while he has 2 edo helping him, Infact I see tobirama being more likely to tag him.



And tobirama can also make shadow clones for the hell of it, if he really wants to outnumber minato.



With  a few range suitons, zombies, and a more tactical mind, I see tobirama slightly edging base minato with et without it it's a 50/50


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I don't see minato hitting another FTG user with contract seal while he has 2 edo helping him, Infact I see tobirama being more likely to tag him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Furthermore, Tobirama has better combat speed and reflexes than Minato.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 19, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Furthermore, Tobirama has better combat speed and reflexes than Minato.



I disagree there about equal in terms of combat speed and reflexes


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I disagree there about equal in terms of combat speed and reflexes



Tobirama put a FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito when they were close enough. *Bijuu Mode* Minato did nothing, was easily defeated and lost his arm. There is their difference in speed. Tobirama is faster.

Many people are writing about that "Mindless Juubito" thing. But nobody up to this date brought a decsent proof Juubito was slower when he had a confrontation with Tobirama.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 19, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I don't see minato hitting another FTG user with contract seal while he has 2 edo helping him, Infact I see tobirama being more likely to tag him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A contract seal is used to remove the control a user has over a summoning. No where does it say that the user has to be touched. Placing the seal on the edo Tensei is no different than placing it on the summon. It still achieves the same result, removing the control. Placing it on the user removes the summoners control, placing it on the summon should still break the control the summoner has over the summon. 

Either way, the EDO tensei are absolute fodder (weaker and slower that part 1 Hashirama's version). Keep in mind that unless Tobirama has 2 Kage level edo tensei of the same calibre as himself and his brother (which he obviously doesn't have, then Minato deals with them easily. Then you have Minato's own summonings - Gourd Toads. Which can consume the edo tensei and trap them in its prison barrier stomach. 4 trigrams seal to seal their souls into objects. It's funny how many options Minato has to deal with those mindless zombies 

Number of enemies are meaningless infront of minato. It's the whole reason he's famed for FTG. Let Tobirama make all the clones he wants. Minato can throw dozens of Kunai's across the battle field at once. And wipe all the clones out in an instant. It's unavoidable. Minato also makes clones for the hell of it, and his clones also throw kunai. See how useless a tactic that is. High tier opponents never fight like that, it's pointless and a waste of time and chakra.

Bunta also fires power suiton..so what? Fodder zombies that will never catch Minato.. Lol ok. Minato has more tactical and strategic feats than Tobirama. Neither are outsmarting each other in battle, don't underestimate minatos intelligence.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I don't see minato hitting another FTG user with contract seal while he has 2 edo helping him, Infact I see tobirama being more likely to tag him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



minato can also make clones..


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> Minato also makes clones for the hell of it, and his clones also throw kunai.



Never saw him making clones.



> minato can also make clones..



Never saw him making clones.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 20, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> A contract seal is used to remove the control a user has over a summoning. No where does it say that the user has to be touched. Placing the seal on the edo Tensei is no different than placing it on the summon. It still achieves the same result, removing the control. Placing it on the user removes the summoners control, placing it on the summon should still break the control the summoner has over the summon.
> 
> Either way, the EDO tensei are absolute fodder (weaker and slower that part 1 Hashirama's version). Keep in mind that unless Tobirama has 2 Kage level edo tensei of the same calibre as himself and his brother (which he obviously doesn't have, then Minato deals with them easily. Then you have Minato's own summonings - Gourd Toads. Which can consume the edo tensei and trap them in its prison barrier stomach. 4 trigrams seal to seal their souls into objects. It's funny how many options Minato has to deal with those mindless zombies
> 
> ...



if tobirama tags his edo's minato isn't landing a contract seal without paying for it, tobirama will just teleport to where minato is and catch him while he's busy using the contract seal.



it's not a matter of them being fodder, it's more a matter of tobirama being equal to  minato, then minato has two regerating zombies to worry about, sure there fodder, but how will minato deal with fodder when he has another ftg user to worry about, tobirama can easily capitalize if minato tries the contract seal on one of the zombies if he tags them, so yeah there fodder but that doesn't matter when tobirama is backing them and using them for other things, they serve as good distractions, a warping point and as a bomb if need be.


the last thing minato want's his summon to do is swallow a walking time bomb 


Tobirama is way more analytical then minato, this was made clear in the manga, the thing is tobirama is less obvious with his ftg, minato won't really know where his seals are placed vs tobirama noticing the obvious kunai's and he would be able to pinpoint his movements easier because of this.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> if tobirama tags his edo's minato isn't landing a contract seal without paying for it, tobirama will just teleport to where minato is and catch him while he's busy using the contract seal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minatos clones can also use contract seals...minato more adept at using ftg...minato can outrun explosions using shunshin..tobirama is in no way much greater then analytical ability then minato his feats against obito are insane without any knowledge he decoded kamuis mechanics determined its weakness and managed to capitalise using his genius while utilising an inferior spacetime technique...obito had knowledge and prep....kakashi an absolute beast in analytical ability needed multiple viewings of kamui against tobi across the manga needed massive support and time to decode kamui let that sink in


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Minatos clones can also use contract seals...minato more adept at using ftg...minato can outrun explosions using shunshin..tobirama is in no way much greater then analytical ability then minato his feats against obito are insane without any knowledge he decoded kamuis mechanics determined its weakness and managed to capitalise using his genius while utilising an inferior spacetime technique...obito had knowledge and prep....kakashi an absolute beast in analytical ability needed multiple viewings of kamui against tobi across the manga needed massive support and time to decode kamui let that sink in



Minato never, ever, used clones in Manga. Too much stupidity in your posts lately.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Minatos clones can also use contract seals...minato more adept at using ftg...minato can outrun explosions using shunshin..tobirama is in no way much greater then analytical ability then minato his feats against obito are insane without any knowledge he decoded kamuis mechanics determined its weakness and managed to capitalise using his genius while utilising an inferior spacetime technique...obito had knowledge and prep....kakashi an absolute beast in analytical ability needed multiple viewings of kamui against tobi across the manga needed massive support and time to decode kamui let that sink in



Tobiramas has clones as well 


By virtue of using kunai's, but ftg is ftg how can he be more adept at teleporting? the kunai's offer minato more utility against a no knowledge opponent but against tobirama he will know exactly what minato is doing because he uses the technique himself.


Compare both of there analytical abilities vs the jubi and you will see my point.




Minato didn't figure out the exact mechanics to kamui but more so how to avoid the technique, kakashi didn't have a teleporting technique to experiment on how to figure out kamui's abilities nor did he have a direct fight with obito like minato did.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Tobiramas has clones as well
> 
> 
> By virtue of using kunai's, but ftg is ftg how can he be more adept at teleporting? the kunai's offer minato more utility against a no knowledge opponent but against tobirama he will know exactly what minato is doing because he uses the technique himself.
> ...



When Minato used clones?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 20, 2014)

Tobirama is weaker than Minato - he gives him a good fight but ultimately loses. The Nidaime's slow moving explosive tags will never be able to touch Minato, nor will he ever be able to successfully blow Minato up with his Edo Tensei without killing himself in the explosion. 

The match goes on for a while, with neither side being able to land any hits. Eventually Minato enters Sage Mode, and between his enhanced base speed and superior shunshin speed, he eventually lands a critical blow on Tobirama and comes out victorious.​​


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Minato never, ever, used clones in Manga. Too much stupidity in your posts lately.



seriously update ur knowledge on the manga u ignorant buffon before bad mouthing others...

Link removed
Link removed


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Tobiramas has clones as well
> 
> 
> By virtue of using kunai's, but ftg is ftg how can he be more adept at teleporting? the kunai's offer minato more utility against a no knowledge opponent but against tobirama he will know exactly what minato is doing because he uses the technique himself.
> ...



Give credit where credit is due his analysis of obito given the timeframe was amazing kakashi was fighting obito and had fought him multiple times and had the same technique in his eye and had time to test his theories through powerfull support....tobirama made a guess that senjutsu would work against juubito so did naruto i guess naruto is an analytical genius ....if there is a difference it is negligible at best between the two geniuses..

ftg v2 is of a higher rank then hirashingiri kishi made it clear that he is more adept at ftg...it appears tobirama has a delay after teleporting while ftg v2 is a fluent process that carries momentum along with it


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> seriously update ur knowledge on the manga u ignorant buffon before bad mouthing others...
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed



I admit i dont know all the things, but you better cool down, man. Relax.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> I admit i dont know all the things, but you better cool down, man. Relax.



You keep on talking shit about me when i never mentioned you or debated with you.. provided arguments that were fallacious and made assumptions with such bravado when you didnot even have knowledge to backbit up...sorry mate if u had stopped calling me a fanboy calling all my posts stupid and spewing shit abt me for no damn reason i wouldnt have called you out so u better turn that shit down a notch..


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> You keep on talking shit about me when i never mentioned you or debated with you.. provided arguments that were fallacious and made assumptions with such bravado when you didnot even have knowledge to backbit up...sorry mate if u had stopped calling me a fanboy calling all my posts stupid and spewing shit abt me for no damn reason i wouldnt have called you out so u better turn that shit down a notch..



Ahahaha, ok, no problem. 

By the way, are you done already? Your arguements for Minato have been countered. Tobirama beats Minato.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Ahahaha, ok, no problem.
> 
> By the way, are you done already? Your arguements for Minato have been countered. Tobirama beats Minato.



...........wow...ok whatever u say


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> ...........wow...ok whatever u say



Why you bothering, I stopped replying that clown a long time ago. His knowledge of e manga is severely lacking and limited.

I mean come on, doesn't know Minato can use clones lol. How can you reply to someone like that. The guy thinks Minato is slow/has no speed feats/slower than tobirama. Yet you have Tobirama say Minato is faster in the manga. Remember the nonsense about Ay not being in his prime that he kept spouting. Saying it wasn't v2 ay, despite Ay saying that's his fastest punch. 

What a joke. If you're gonna argue Minato vs tobitama, don't bother with him. He's against Minato in every thread anyway. So it's hopeless. Anyway I'm heavily advising you not to reply to hi anymore. It will only make your brain hurt at his stupidity.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> Yet you have Tobirama say Minato is faster in the manga.



Your knowledge is lacking and limited. Tobirama *never* stated such a thing in manga. Go home and read it, son. 



> Saying it wasn't v2 ay, despite Ay saying that's his fastest punch.



Proves nothing. His fastest punch was different when he was young. Because he, overall, improved throughout those years. Young Ei <<<<<<<<<<<<< Raikage Ei.


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 21, 2014)

People need to realise that its the reflexes and the striking speed that allow the user to land their blows, and win,
not their superior speed, 

RT Madara vs Tobirama clearly proved that, when tobirama despite being much faster thanks to FTG, ended up getting shat on due to madaras superior reflexees and striking speed,

so with that being said, claiming that minato beats tobirma just due to his superior shunshin isnt a valid example,


----------



## Trojan (Dec 21, 2014)

> [=ARGUS;52512912]People need to realise that its the reflexes and the striking speed that allow the user to land their blows, and win, not their superior speed,



No. A has superior reflexes to Minato when he uses his lightning armour, yet he got his ass kicked. Also, you overrate Tobirama way too much, if what you say is true, then how did he get his ass handled to him by Kin/Gin (their speed/reflexes are inferior to Darui)? 


> RT Madara vs Tobirama clearly proved that, when tobirama despite being much faster thanks to FTG, ended up getting shat on due to madaras superior reflexees and striking speed,


Tobirama telpoerted at first, and then he used his shunshin afterward, and we know his shunshin sucks, since it's even slower than Hiruzen's. 



> so with that being said, claiming that minato beats tobirma just due to his superior shunshin isnt a valid example,


Except Minato is superior with everything have to do with speed. Shunshin, FTG, AND reflexes. Much better, unlike Tobirama, Minato's attack do not even need hand-seals to do which gives him even more advantages. 

Minato Vs Tobirama, would be much easier battle than his battle against A or Obito.
since A had superior shunshin and reflexes, but slower because of FTG. Obito had better S/T jutsu.

Tobirama on the other hand is inferior in all of that. 

the manga clearly indicates that Tobirama is the weakest out of the 4 Hokages. You people just try to put nonsensical excuses 
that was not even hinted at in the manga. 

anyway, Minato is really superior to Tobirama in everything...


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 21, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Give credit where credit is due his analysis of obito given the timeframe was amazing kakashi was fighting obito and had fought him multiple times and had the same technique in his eye and had time to test his theories through powerfull support....tobirama made a guess that senjutsu would work against juubito so did naruto i guess naruto is an analytical genius ....if there is a difference it is negligible at best between the two geniuses..
> 
> ftg v2 is of a higher rank then hirashingiri kishi made it clear that he is more adept at ftg...it appears tobirama has a delay after teleporting while ftg v2 is a fluent process that carries momentum along with it



Im giving credit where credit is due, im not saying minato is dumb or anything don't get me wrong.
Had kakashi had FTG im sure he would of figured out just as much as minato figured out.





Yes kakashi had the the same eye but your leaving out the fact that kakashi wasn't a uchiha and had no senju dna, obito had both of these things, at the beginning of part 2 how much times could kakashi use his ms before passing out? you expect him to be able to experiment with such limitations? 






please don't make it seem as if tobirama just randomly guessed it and had no basis for his guess, he noticed something minato happened to miss, and formed a guess based off that analysis, naruto maybe be dimwitted at times but he to can also be analytical. 




the difference can't be that negligible if minato was standing right next to tobirama and still didn't notice what he noticed 
Feats disagree with that notion.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> Except Minato is superior with everything have to do with speed. Shunshin, FTG, AND reflexes. Much better, unlike Tobirama, Minato's attack do not even need hand-seals to do which gives him even more advantages.
> 
> Minato Vs Tobirama, would be much easier battle than his battle against A or Obito.
> since A had superior shunshin and reflexes, but slower because of FTG. Obito had better S/T jutsu.
> ...



I havent read your links to their fullest. There are too many letters there, lol. But there are some links. I opened one of them and there was Tobirama's statement about Minato being fast at striking. So it seems you brought here some manga things, yeah?

The problem with that is the fact that Manga *NEVER APPLIED* Minato is superior to Tobirama in terms of reflexes and combat speed. 

*NEVER, EVER! *

Bring here a single statement from manga, at least a single, that Minato is superior to Tobirama in terms of combat speed and reflexes.

*AT LEAST ONE!*

Dont worry - i'll wait for it. But i am sure you wont bring it. Because there is *NO* such statement in manga.

But you can bring here Databook statements. Man, you can do anything to prove you are right about Tobirama and Minato. 

Because up to this moment, you just write some nonsense without providing any proof whatsoever.



> No. A has superior reflexes to Minato when he uses his lightning armour, yet he got his ass kicked. Also, you overrate Tobirama way too much, if what you say is true, then how did he get his ass handled to him by Kin/Gin (their speed/reflexes are inferior to Darui)?



Young Ei is inferior to Minato in anything speed-wise, including reflexes. 

But thats *featless Young Ei* we are talking about. 

And lol, no one is overrating Tobirama. We dont know the details of how Kin/Gin defeated him. So bringing here that thing wont prove anything.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 21, 2014)

why don't YOU bring a statement of Tobirama being better than Minato in any damn thing whatsoever? 
instead of bullshitting around


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

Hussain said:


> why don't YOU bring a statement of Tobirama being better than Minato in any damn thing whatsoever?
> instead of bullshitting around



I dont need to bring statements here - i can bring here his feats.

And i already brought Tobirama's feat that proves he is faster than Minato. Remember that Juubito FTG formula tag thing i wrote about lots of times? Yeah, man, here ya go. 

But you, on the other hand, brought nothing to back up your claims. No statements from manga/databooks and no feats that can prove Minato is faster than Tobirama in terms of reflexes and combat speed.


Anyway, i'll wait for you to bring them here. You can do whatever you want to prove me wrong and prove yourself right.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 21, 2014)

Kishimoto opinion > yours

Not to mention Minato dodged 8 Gated Gai when Tobirama got one panel blitzed by Mindless Juubito :rofl

Minato > Darui > Kin/Gin > Tobirama.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 21, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Im giving credit where credit is due, im not saying minato is dumb or anything don't get me wrong.
> Had kakashi had FTG im sure he would of figured out just as much as minato figured out.
> 
> 
> ...



Actually ur not giving the credit ur downplaying the feat...ftg had nothing to do with analyzing kamui and decoding its weakness...

You conveniently ignore the fact that kakashi had much more time had the same technique to exploit had massive support and yet took much more time to realise kamuis weakeness..what does senju dna have to do with it....his analytical abilities were being challenged there...

As i said naruto accomplished the same feat tobirama did so stop holding it out as some mindblowing achievement of analytical ability it was a guess made and it worked hardly the be end all analytical feat in the manga


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Kishimoto opinion > yours
> 
> Not to mention Minato dodged 8 Gated Gai when Tobirama got one panel blitzed by Mindless Juubito :rofl
> 
> Minato > Darui > Kin/Gin > Tobirama.



So called "Mindless" Juubito was the same as the Juubito who blitzed and tear BM Minato's arm off.

And Kishimoto never stated Minato is faster than Tobirama.

And we dont know how exactly Kin/Gin beat Tobirama. We dont know the details about that those fights.

And, finally, Not only Minato was able to "react" to 8 Gates Guy on that panel. Minato just reacted to Gudoudama's. 

Minato was blitzed by Juubidara.

And Tobirama has better speed feats than Minato.

Tobirama >>> Minato.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 21, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> So called "Mindless" Juubito was the same as the Juubito who blitzed and tear BM Minato's arm off.
> 
> And Kishimoto never stated Minato is faster than Tobirama.
> 
> ...



Complete Juubito > Mindless Juubito. Nice try though. And losing an arm =/= sliced in half. Lets see who wakes up in the morning :rofl

And we don't need to know every specific detail to know that Tobirama got wrecked by Kin/Gin, who were wrecked by Darui 

And I wish Tobirama was there to fight Juubidara....but oh wait he was laying on the ground with rods stuck in his ass by regular Madara 


Minato > Darui > Kin/Gin > Tobirama - Kishimoto's own writing


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 21, 2014)

Tobirama is badass, smart, a great inventor and not a naive goody two shoes or crazy butthurt dude.

However, Minato is basically his successor who took what Tobirama invented to new highs. 

Tobirama might be smarter but without at least one kage level edo by his side this fight seems to be in Minato's pocket.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> Complete Juubito > Mindless Juubito. Nice try though. And losing an arm =/= sliced in half. Lets see who wakes up in the morning



Any proof that in terms of speed and reflexes Juubito was worse when he fought with Tobirama than when he fought Minato? Because, up to this moment, nobody brought a proof of that. 

Tobirama put FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito. BM Minato did absolutely nothing and lost his arm.

LOL



> And we don't need to know every specific detail to know that Tobirama got wrecked by Kin/Gin, who were wrecked by Darui



We need. Maybe they used super-duper weapon that counters Hiraishin and Shunshin to beat him. Maybe they used some tricks. We dont know how they beat him at all.



> And I wish Tobirama was there to fight Juubidara....but oh wait he was laying on the ground with rods stuck in his ass by regular Madara



1. Who is also much faster than Minato.

2. He was laying down. And? Does it prove anything?



> Minato > Darui > Kin/Gin > Tobirama - Kishimoto's own writing



Prove that, bring here Kishimoto's words about that. Because for now, with feats, Tobirama is superior to Minato.


Nice try, fanboy. But you got wrecked. Try harder next time.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Tobirama is badass, smart, a great inventor and not a naive goody two shoes or crazy butthurt dude.
> 
> However, Minato is basically his successor who took what Tobirama invented to new highs.
> 
> Tobirama might be smarter but without at least one kage level edo by his side this fight seems to be in Minato's pocket.



Tobirama cannot bring a Kage-level Edo. His ET is weaker than Oro's in part 1 which made a joke of Hashirama himself. Tobirama's problem is the fact that he lacks talent severely. 



StarWanderer said:


> I dont need to bring statements here - i can bring here his feats.
> 
> And i already brought Tobirama's feat that proves he is faster than Minato. Remember that Juubito FTG formula tag thing i wrote about lots of times? Yeah, man, here ya go.
> 
> ...



- Because you have none, all you can do is bitching around, and waste everyone's time. 
- honestly, not sure if your playing retarded, or you really are a retard. 
If you have even one cell of a brain you should have learned by now. Every Goddam person explained that shit to you. But as we say, there is no cure for foolishness. 

- Yeah, I will wait for you to bring any proof instead of ------ Tobirama.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

> - Because you have none, all you can do is bitching around, and waste everyone's time.
> - honestly, not sure if your playing retarded, or you really are a retard.
> If you have even one cell of a brain you should have learned by now. Every Goddam person explained that shit to you. But as we say, there is no cure for foolishness.
> 
> - Yeah, I will wait for you to bring any proof instead of ------ Tobirama.



Tobirama put a FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito, while BM Minato did nothing at all, was blitzed and lost his arm.

That "Mindless Juubito" thing is complete bulls*it. Nobody brought a proof Juubito became faster after his confrontation with Tobirama. There is nothing to suggest such a thing.

And dont bring that "body-arm" comparison. They were both blitzed, but the main difference between them is - Tobirama did something, amped by Kurama's chakra Minato did nothing.

That was Bijuu Mode Minato. His reflexes and overall speed were amped. But even than his combat speed and reflexes were not as good as Tobirama's.

And now, counter my feat. I'll wait. Counter it with whatever you have - Minato's feats, Databook statements, anything.

Because, up to this moment, you didnt counter me in this debate. Dont think i am some mindless biased fanboy. If you have feats, statements from manga/databooks, i'll listen. 

Bring it, Hussain. Show me how good of a debater you are.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

OK, This is probably the last reply to you since obviously you're helpess, and only aim to waste
our time with your pathetic trolling.  


> =StarWanderer;52519739]Tobirama put a FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito, while BM Minato did nothing at all, was blitzed and lost his arm.


Tobirama lost half of his body, while Minato lost 1 arm. If you can't get this fact through your thick skull, I don't know how to help you. Second, Minato was up against a superior Obito, who so happened to gain control out of the blue. Third, Tobirama's body has explosion tags inside of him, he did not react in that matter, just like how obito got the bugs in his arm, yet Turoni (The Root ANBU) did not react to him.



> That "Mindless Juubito" thing is complete bulls*it. Nobody brought a proof Juubito became faster after his confrontation with Tobirama. There is nothing to suggest such a thing.


No one give a damn if you think its Bullshit of not. Obviously, if you have any type of reading comprehension you would realize that having control over his power make him faster and better. KCM Naruto broke his leg when he tried to use his speed against Kisame first, then he was hardly able to get pass A, and when he controlled his speed he surpasses him. Then when he gain BM, he became faster again and countered 5 TBB. Again, even pre-schoolers have basic understanding to know that.  



> And dont bring that "body-arm" comparison. They were both blitzed, but the main difference between them is - Tobirama did something, amped by Kurama's chakra Minato did nothing.


If you're retarded enough to not get the HUGE different between the 2 damage, I can't help you. 
I have better chance of debating a wall. 


> That was Bijuu Mode Minato. His reflexes and overall speed were amped. But even than his combat speed and reflexes were not as good as Tobirama's.


Your Hypocrisy is over the top, isn't it? 
So, when it comes to Minato, those mode does increase his power and speed and all of that, but it does not when it come to obito because he took a shit on your Tobirama? 


> And now, counter my feat. I'll wait. Counter it with whatever you have - Minato's feats, Databook statements, anything.


Again, there is no cure for foolishness. You're helpless, plain simple. 



> Because, up to this moment, you didnt counter me in this debate. Dont think* i am some mindless biased fanboy*. If you have feats, statements from manga/databooks, i'll listen.



Yes you're my dear. Yes you're. That's why there is no point of debating you because you're blind fanboy.  



> If you have feats, statements from manga/databooks, i'll listen


I swear, If kishi himself came to you, you won't.  


anyway, I am done wasting my time with you.


----------



## Legend777 (Dec 22, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> And i already brought Tobirama's feat that proves he is faster than Minato. Remember that Juubito FTG formula tag thing i wrote about lots of times? Yeah, man, here ya go. .



Reposting: 

If he could tag him 5 times before he could move a  feet then why would he say the following :



If he could physically tag him , then he should have a much easier time mentally reacting to Juubito but he himself acknowledges he'd get blitzed if tried to get close to him one more time.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

Funny thing
Obito is not even moving here, and Tobirama is right in front of him
here
Yet, obito blocked that with his Gedu-dama
here

here, Tobirama is trying to return the Gedu-dama back
here
and yet he failed to actually hit him with it
here


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> our time with your pathetic trolling.



You're the last person who should be calling a troll 



> Tobirama lost half of his body, while Minato lost 1 arm. If you can't get this fact through your thick skull, I don't know how to help you. Second, Minato was up against a superior Obito, who so happened to gain control out of the blue. Third, Tobirama's body has explosion tags inside of him, he did not react in that matter



I guess you're the one who can not get panel seqeunce through your fan boy mind. Tobirama CHOSE to use his Edo Tensei self as a tool to guage Juubito's power and abilties. He even metions this a couple panels later. Secondly Minato had no idea what was going on and was told by Tobirama then Sarutobi to get away.

Juubito gained his conscience back before Minato attacked. Minato also recognized the change in Obito and had the ability to pull back at any time. It was his choice to continue on with the attack.

Tobirama managed to tag Obito numerous times and only reached into his chest to pull out and start the attack. Tobirama also explains this several pages or chapters later


I mean reading comprehension is not to hard right


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

Now its my turn, Hussain.



> Tobirama lost half of his body, while Minato lost 1 arm. If you can't get this fact through your thick skull, I don't know how to help you. Second, Minato was up against a superior Obito, who so happened to gain control out of the blue. Third, Tobirama's body has explosion tags inside of him, he did not react in that matter, just like how obito got the bugs in his arm, yet Turoni (The Root ANBU) did not react to him.



First, they were both blitzed. Yes, Tobirama lost half of his body and Minato lost his arm. It doesnt change the fact they both were blitzed. 

But Juubito not only took his arm off - he also attached a Gudoudama to him. What would have happened if Tobirama didnt save BM Minato? His body would have been completely destroyed if not for Tobirama saving him. Not even a half of his body would have remained there.

Second, Obito controlled his powers, than he lost control, than he regained it. Minato just made an assumption about his powers control. 

Plus, you forget about this: here

Third, i agree that those tags may be on him because they were inside of Tobirama. But Tobirama still managed to put a FTG formula on Juubito. Furthermore, Tobirama didnt try to dodge him as he wanted to use his kamikaze-style. BM Minato on the other hand did nothing and lost his arm.  And if Tobirama didnt save him, there wont be even half of Minato's body left because of attached Gudoudama. 

Oh, and you forget about how Minato himself commented on Tobirama's speed: here

"The Second is so fast!"  By the way, Tobirama never praised Minato's speed. He praised only his Shunshin and Hiraishin. 



> No one give a damn if you think its Bullshit of not. Obviously, if you have any type of reading comprehension you would realize that having control over his power make him faster and better. KCM Naruto broke his leg when he tried to use his speed against Kisame first, then he was hardly able to get pass A, and when he controlled his speed he surpasses him. Then when he gain BM, he became faster again and countered 5 TBB. Again, even pre-schoolers have basic understanding to know that.



KCM Naruto is in no way a Juubi's Jinchuuriki that is special in many things to common Jinchuuriki.

And Obito had control of his powers at the start. He just seemingly couldnt use Yin-Yan release to the extent when he can kill edo's. Well, maybe he didnt know how to do that. But, as we can see, he had control, than he lost it, than he regained control. BM Minato's assumption is just an assumption.

And when he lost control, he did this: here BM Minato never had a speed and reflexes to react to that. 




> If you're retarded enough to not get the HUGE different between the 2 damage, I can't help you.
> I have better chance of debating a wall.



Yes, it is different, but Tobirama never tried to dodge him. And Tobirama did something there - put a FTG formula on him. While BM Minato did nothing. Plus, Tobirama saved Minato there. because, if not for Tobirama, there wouldnt be even half of Minatos body left.



> Your Hypocrisy is over the top, isn't it?
> So, when it comes to Minato, those mode does increase his power and speed and all of that, but it does not when it come to obito because he took a shit on your Tobirama?



You have yet to prove he indeed couldnt control his powers at that moment. And you have yet to prove there is a huge speed gap between Tobirama's Juubito and Minato's Juubito.

Because what we see is him having control, than losing it, than Minato makes an assumption, than Obito regaines that control and learns how to use his offensive even better than before. 



> I swear, If kishi himself came to you, you won't.



I will. Too bad it never happened. And in manga, Tobirama's feats are better.


You were easily countered, as always. And people praise you as one of the best debaters here? LOL.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

Legend777 said:


> Reposting:
> 
> If he could tag him 5 times before he could move a  feet then why would he say the following :
> 
> ...



He could, just as he did before, but he would have lost at least part of his body again. Yeah, he would have been destroyed. And the difference were - he would have been killed then. Because at that moment, Juubito could use Yin/Yan release in a way to kill Edo's.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

> =Complete_Ownage;52520326]You're the last person who should be calling a troll


I wonder. 
because I could have sworn I putted Kishi's words to you, Tobirama's fans, and even HIS words, and yet you ignore him, thinking you know better than him about himself. 

Which is really sad if you ask me.  


> I guess you're the one who can not get panel seqeunce through your fan boy mind. Tobirama CHOSE to use his Edo Tensei self as a tool to guage Juubito's power and abilties. He even metions this a couple panels later. Secondly Minato had no idea what was going on and was told by Tobirama then Sarutobi to get away.


where was it stated that he chose? Why was it like that when it has to do with Tobirama, but it's not the case when it's with Minato? 

Tobirama stated that? Perhaps you can show us that panel? 


> Juubito gained his conscience back before Minato attacked. Minato also recognized the change in Obito and had the ability to pull back at any time. It was his choice to continue on with the attack.


Obito gained control, when Minato was midway on his attack. 



> Tobirama managed to tag Obito numerous times and only reached into his chest to pull out and start the attack. Tobirama also explains this several pages or chapters later


The tags are in his body. Your claim is as dumb as saying Torune was able to "tag" Obito billions of time, as the numbers of bugs in his arm
here
even though that happens upon contract with the foes. Tobirama, obviously can't do that physically otherwise, he would have killed Madara the same why, but he did not. Minato on the other hand does not use this jutsu, and as such, he won't pull that out the same way. Tobirama got the rods up his ass when he tried to use FTG as well.  




> I mean reading comprehension is not to hard right


Sure it is for some hard fanboys people. 
Or else, what is so hard to understand about a statement was made FIVE fucking times, and some people are still lacking the ability to get. 

In the manga it was stated by Tobirama in chapter 631 that Minato is better than him. It was stated again in chapter 650. In the Databoom it was stated in Minato's profile, it was stated in the FTG section. It was stated for the 5th time in the FTG Mwashi, and Tobirama's fans still don't get it. 

They compare this clown who got fodderized by 20 fodders, to one who made armies shit themselves, and kill them in seconds. The one who got defeated by Kin and Gin even with backup, to someone who take on A & B by himself, and so on and so forth. 

Even the theme of the Manga is the New Generation > Old Generation. And it was even specifically stated in Minato and Tobirama's case. I mean how dense can you get?


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

> I wonder.
> because I could have sworn I putted Kishi's words to you, Tobirama's fans, and even HIS words, and yet you ignore him, thinking you know better than him about himself.
> 
> Which is really sad if you ask me.



Kishi never stated Minato is faster than Tobirama.

Oh, and about "words": here

"The Second is so fast!" LOL, Tobirama never praised his speed and here we can see BM Minato praising his speed. LOL. You better not ignore words *YOURSELF*.



> Obito gained control, when Minato was midway on his attack.



And Obito had full control of his Juubi's powers at the moment when he confronted Tobirama. He just lost his control later.



> The tags are in his body. Your claim is as dumb as saying Toreno was able to "tag" Obito billions of time, as the numbers of bugs in his arm
> here
> even though that happens upon contract with the foes. Tobirama, obviously can't do that physically otherwise, he would have killed Madara the same why, but he did not. Minato on the other hand does not use this jutsu, and as such, he won't pull that out the same way. Tobirama got the rods up his ass when he tried to use FTG as well.



And if BM Minato was in Tobirama's place, he would have ended up the same. Because Madara was just that fast.

But i agree about those explosive tags. You made a point. Still, Tobirama put a FTG formula on Juubito.



> In the manga it was stated by Tobirama in chapter 631 that Minato is better than him. It was stated again in chapter 650. In the Databoom it was stated in Minato's profile, it was stated in the FTG section. It was stated for the 5th time in the FTG Mwashi, and Tobirama's fans still don't get it.



No, it wasnt. No, it wasnt. No, it wasnt. No, it wasnt. And no, it wasnt. It was stated that Minato is better ONLY in *Hiraishin* and *Shunshin*. There is no such a statement about *SPEED* and *REFLEXES*.

But i can be mistaken. Well, its up to you to bring canon statements about *their* speed. I've seen none of these in Manga, or Databooks.

Bring it on, Hussain.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

You also forget, Hussain, that Minato had Bijuu Mode at his disposal. But Tobirama was still shown as the fastest of the two. I can imagine how fast Tobirama is compare to *BASE* Minato this thread is about.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

> Kishi never stated Minato is faster than Tobirama.
> 
> Oh, and about "words": here
> 
> "The Second is so fast!" LOL, Tobirama never praised his speed and here we can see BM Minato praising his speed. LOL. You better not ignore words YOURSELF.


As I told you, at this point I don't know if you're playing to be a r-----, or if you're indeed a r----. Because even a pre-schooler should know that Minato arriving before Tobirama means he's faster than him. 

Also, Minato stated "the second works quickly" 
which Tobirama said the same thing to Minato by the way. 



> And Obito had full control of his Juubi's powers at the moment when he confronted Tobirama. He just lost his control later.


peak of s-----. 



> And if BM Minato was in Tobirama's place, he would have ended up the same. Because Madara was just that fast.
> 
> But i agree about those explosive tags. You made a point. Still, Tobirama put a FTG formula on Juubito.


Except Minato was up against JJ SM Madara, and he did not end the same. 

as for the FTG seal, yes indeed he did. No denying that.



> No, it wasnt. No, it wasnt. No, it wasnt. No, it wasnt. And no, it wasnt. It was stated that Minato is better ONLY in Hiraishin and Shunshin. There is no such a statement about SPEED and REFLEXES.



s----- again.  
FTG & shunshin ARE speed, I have already explained this shit to you. 



> Databook 2 - Hiraishin no Jutsu:
> Hiraishin no Jutsu
> 
> User(s): Yondaime Hokage
> ...






> Databook 1 - Shunshin no Jutsu:
> Body Flicker Technique (瞬身の術, Shunshin no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, D-rank, Supplementary
> Users: Gaara, Hatake Kakashi, et al
> ...



and here again, it's speed


----------



## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

For my first claim


Here's Minato's statement


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

> FTG & shunshin ARE speed, I have already explained this shit to you.



No, they are not. They are techniques. And they have nothing to do with someones reflexes and combat speed. You can Hiraishin to your opponent, but he can block your hit because he has superior combat speed and reflexes. The same thing is Shunshin. They are only *TECHNIQUES*.



> His high-speed
> movement over long distances...it is really "space-time movement".



Yeah, because of that technique, not because of his natural speed. 



> A movement technique with extreme speed like a gust of wind!!



Dude, A movement *TECHNIQUE* with extreme speed.



> and here again, it's speed



No, its technique. Its a space-time ninjutsu that needs chakra to use, not someones natural speed and reflexes. I agree Minato was lightningly fast, especially after he dodged someone with Raiton. I agree that he deserves his nickname "Yellow Flash".

But you never gave me a statement that Minato *IS FASTER THAN TOBIRAMA*. His Hiraishin and Shunshin are better, but his own speed and reflexes *ARE NOT*. Thats the point.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 22, 2014)

Minato (in base) arrives on the battlefield way before Tobirama.
Yet this clown says Tobirama is faster -_- Someone shoot me now.

Tobirama says, "Fourth, you are better at teleporting than me".
Yet apparently there is still a debate about speed.

Tobirama says to Minato "You're quick at striking too"
People talk about tobirama "tagging" juubito 5 times (lol no, he tagged him once, the paper bombs stuck onto juubito from within his body).
Yet no one talks about Minato making 5 markings across the giant scope of the battlefield. 1 marking in the ocean, 3 markings around the juubi (before any sensor could detect him), and the last marking in front of Naruto.

...Meanwhile slowpoke rama is still trying to catch up. Imagine the fate of the ninja world was in tobiramas hands, everyone would be dead already.

The speed difference between the 2 is staggering. The databook bangs on about it over and over, how Minatos ftg usage far surpasses tobiramas as well. Why this debate has even gone on this long is beyond me.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 22, 2014)

Just so you know, censoring certain letters out of your insults doesn't give you any leeway. Debate civilly or don't debate at all.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> For my first claim
> 
> 
> Here's Minato's statement



And i have the same scan were he says "The Second is so fast!". Who's translation is true?

And the fact he came to battlefield faster can be easily explained - his Hiraishin and Shunshin are better than those of other Hokage. And i never denied it. Thats true. I completely agree on that.

But i am talking not about the speed of his Shunshin and Hiraishin, not about his travel speed from point A to point B, but about his *SPEED IN AN ACTUAL COMBAT AND REFLEXES IN COMBAT!*


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Just so you know, censoring certain letters out of your insults doesn't give you any leeway. Debate civilly or don't debate at all.



Ok, no problem.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Minato (in base) arrives on the battlefield way before Tobirama.
> Yet this clown says Tobirama is faster -_- Someone shoot me now.
> 
> Tobirama says, "Fourth, you are better at teleporting than me".
> ...



Do you know what is the difference between travel speed and combat speed? And how does it prove anything? I know Minato's Shunshin and Hiraishin are better, thus faster. Thats why he came to battlefield before others. His techniques themselves are faster. But *WHAT ABOUT HIS SPEED IN COMBAT AND COMBAT REFLEXES*?

Do you have a proof that he put a mark in the ocean back there? It could be there much earlier, from the time when Minato was alive. He loved to put markings in areas, you know.

And that actually was a part of their plan. A battle preparation. Since Minato's Hiraishin and Shunshin is better.

Minato's FTG and Shunshin are better. But he himself is not as fast as Tobirama. And he doesnt possess reflexes as fast as those of Tobirama.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> No, they are not. They are techniques. And they have nothing to do with someones reflexes and combat speed. You can Hiraishin to your opponent, but he can block your hit because he has superior combat speed and reflexes. The same thing is Shunshin. They are only *TECHNIQUES*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am done with you. 



> And i have the same scan were he says "The Second is so fast!". Who's translation is true?



The scan I posted is Viz's translation. It's high quality.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I am done with you.
> 
> 
> 
> The scan I posted it Viz's translation. It's high quality.



stop replying to the guy, I put him on my block list because his posts give me cancer.

I hope he'll finally stop replying to me.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> stop replying to the guy, I put him on my block list because his posts give me cancer.
> 
> I hope he'll finally stop replying to me.



I almost had a heart attack. 
I swear to God, I tried everything I can possibly think of, but he just don't get it.  

he apparently think the movement the characters use, and the shunshin are 2 different things.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

LOL guys, it was easy to counter your "arguements". Have a nice day!


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I almost had a heart attack.
> I swear to God, I tried everything I can possibly think of, but he just don't get it.
> 
> he apparently think the movement the characters use, and the shunshin are 2 different things.



The technique itself is faster and better. The process of "teleporting" is  faster. Thats it. The same is with Shunshin. 

And his early arrival on battlefield was a part of their battle preparation.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I wonder.
> because I could have sworn I putted Kishi's words to you, Tobirama's fans, and even HIS words, and yet you ignore him, thinking you know better than him about himself.



What are you even talking about?




> where was it stated that he chose? Why was it like that when it has to do with Tobirama, but it's not the case when it's with Minato? Tobirama stated that? Perhaps you can show us that panel?



Tobirama chose to get attacked. Hence his planning with Hashirama and himself stating this is the first time he's using it on himself
How is this not barely avoiding
How is this not barely avoiding

Minato having no idea to whats going on - Tobirama tells him to get away
How is this not barely avoiding

Sarutobi telling him once agian to get away
How is this not barely avoiding



> Obito gained control, when Minato was midway on his attack.



So what if Minato was already on his way to attack. The fastest man alive and with FTG could not pull back when he was still running toward obito...GTFO out of here with that shit

Minato recognized the change in Juubito and still continued his attack. He could have pulled back before hand or even durring the attack
How is this not barely avoiding
How is this not barely avoiding




> The tags are in his body. Your claim is as dumb as saying Torune was able to "tag" Obito billions of time, as the numbers of bugs in his arm
> How is this not barely avoiding
> even though that happens upon contract with the foes. Tobirama, obviously can't do that physically otherwise, he would have killed Madara the same why, but he did not. Minato on the other hand does not use this jutsu, and as such, he won't pull that out the same way. Tobirama got the rods up his ass when he tried to use FTG as well.



LOL I won't even begin to touch this logic.




> Sure it is for some hard fanboys people.
> Or else, what is so hard to understand about a statement was made FIVE fucking times, and some people are still lacking the ability to get.
> 
> In the manga it was stated by Tobirama in chapter 631 that Minato is better than him. It was stated again in chapter 650. In the Databoom it was stated in Minato's profile, it was stated in the FTG section. It was stated for the 5th time in the FTG Mwashi, and Tobirama's fans still don't get it.



What are you even arguing about this time? Do you even realize what your typing half the time? No where did I ever state that Tobirama is faster then Minato since it's plain as day in the manga. 

Control yourself



> They compare this clown who got fodderized by 20 fodders, to one who made armies shit themselves, and kill them in seconds. The one who got defeated by Kin and Gin even with backup, to someone who take on A & B by himself, and so on and so forth.



Yes someone who got killed by two psycho half jins that carry the six path tools and 20 elite tracking shinobi. Yet we have no knowledg of events prior or durring the event yet you claim he got fodderized. 

Yet you compare Minato who had a bunch of fodders shit there pants due to a flee on sight warning. Young Bee also got the upper hand on Minato in that situation and could have done serious damage



> Even the theme of the Manga is the New Generation > Old Generation. And it was even specifically stated in Minato and Tobirama's case. I mean how dense can you get?



You still believe this shit? Only a select few of the new geneartion has surppased the old. When was it ever stated the Minato is superior then Tobirama in overall ability. The onl thing i recall being mentioned is his superior speed & FTG usage.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 22, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> The technique itself is faster and better. The process of "teleporting" is  faster. Thats it. The same is with Shunshin.
> 
> And his early arrival on battlefield was a part of their battle preparation.



Yup, this is enough for me to realize that you are either uneducated or trolling. But please lay off the forums. You have more posts in your first two weeks than I had in my first 2 years. That seriously can't be healthy


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 22, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Actually ur not giving the credit ur downplaying the feat...ftg had nothing to do with analyzing kamui and decoding its weakness...
> 
> You conveniently ignore the fact that kakashi had much more time had the same technique to exploit had massive support and yet took much more time to realise kamuis weakeness..what does senju dna have to do with it....his analytical abilities were being challenged there...
> 
> As i said naruto accomplished the same feat tobirama did so stop holding it out as some mindblowing achievement of analytical ability it was a guess made and it worked hardly the be end all analytical feat in the manga



It had everything to do with it, had minato not used FTG to escape kamui, he would of never knew how it worked, he would of just ended up in boxland, minato had the tools to escape kamui a privilege  most shinobi don't have and thus was able to analyze more.


Kakashi never fought obito in direct combat at first, obito retreated in almost every instance at first how would he get the time to decipher kamui?, the moment kakashi was in  a direct fight and had the support he figured it out and he figured it out to a greater extent then minato did.

 Senjutsu DNA means kakashi didn't have the chakra reserves to spam his kamui and take on obito. You keep bringing up kakashi having the same eye without acknowledging the fact that kakashi could barley use that eye at first.



I'm not saying its mind blowing I'm saying, minato was there and didn't realize it, it's really that simple, you downplaying the feat doesn't change tobirama being more analytical in that scenario.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Yup, this is enough for me to realize that you are either uneducated or trolling. But please lay off the forums. You have more posts in your first two weeks than I had in my first 2 years. That seriously can't be healthy



I am not trolling. And its logical that techniques speed =/= body speed and reflexes. 

But ok, i can say that one is faster than another because he can form Rasengan faster than the other. LOL such a nice logic.

By the way, Minato's Shunshin is faster, but i dont remember it to be stated anywhere that his Hiraishin is faster. Its just better. 

And whats the problem with me posting a lot?


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 22, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> It had everything to do with it, had minato not used FTG to escape kamui, he would of never knew how it worked, he would of just ended up in boxland, minato had the tools to escape kamui a privilege  most shinobi don't have and thus was able to analyze more.
> 
> 
> Kakashi never fought obito in direct combat at first, obito retreated in almost every instance at first how would he get the time to decipher kamui?, the moment kakashi was in  a direct fight and had the support he figured it out and he figured it out to a greater extent then minato did.
> ...



Yes he used ftg to escape but kamui is by far the hardest jutsu to decipher and decode simply surviving the warp does not make you knowledgable about the jutsu..

kakashi did not fight directly actually he did..while support was fighting he was observing kamuis mechanics...he observed kamui being used several times before and he has used kamui several times before in the manga and spammed it in the war the very technique he was deciphering it is in his very skillset he must have much greater knowledge and understanding on it ..much more then was available to minato..minato literally took 1 min to decipher it that is much more impressive..

Fact is naruto performed the same feat are you going to claim he is more analytical then minato? that feat is not something impressive to imply massive superiority..
not to mention you said he is much more analytical that is just far from true..somewhat i could understand..


----------



## Legend777 (Dec 23, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> He could, just as he did before, but he would have lost at least part of his body again. Yeah, he would have been destroyed. And the difference were - he would have been killed then. Because at that moment, Juubito could use Yin/Yan release in a way to kill Edo's.





If there was no need tor Tobirama to physically react and assuming that his earlier feat of tagging juubito is legit + the assumption that Juubito in control is no faster than his earlier version ..he should have absolutely no trouble just mentally reacting to Juubito ..instead he flat out stated that he'll get annihilated, meaning that he can't react to Juubito .

Juubito took BM Minato's arm when Minato was caught off guard ( As Obito managed to gain control of his Jinchuriki form ) while attacking head on and Tobirama admited he gets blitzed even if he appears behind him .

I am not really sure how anyone can say Tobirama has superior reflexes


----------



## SSMG (Dec 23, 2014)

Minato can run faster than tobirama.
Tobirama can react faster than minato.

Debate ended.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 23, 2014)

> If there was no need tor Tobirama to physically react and assuming that his earlier feat of tagging juubito is legit + the assumption that Juubito in control is no faster than his earlier version ..he should have absolutely no trouble just mentally reacting to Juubito ..instead he flat out stated that he'll get annihilated, meaning that he can't react to Juubito .
> 
> Juubito took BM Minato's arm when Minato was caught off guard ( As Obito managed to gain control of his Jinchuriki form ) while attacking head on and Tobirama admited he gets blitzed even if he appears behind him .
> 
> I am not really sure how anyone can say Tobirama has superior reflexes



Meaning that Juubito already prepared himself for attacks to his back. And Tobirama, as i remember, knew already about his edo killing Yin-Yan release. And he remembered how Juubito destroyed half of his body before.

Also, even unstable Juubito easily kicked BM Minato.

BM Minato saw him being in full control again, but he still attacked, although he could just FTG away and think about a strategy against him.

And do not forget it was BM Minato. His speed and reflexes are drastically amped by Kurama's chakra.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 24, 2014)

> [=Complete_Ownage;52520988]
> Tobirama chose to get attacked. Hence his planning with Hashirama and himself stating this is the first time he's using it on himself
> open environment that Naruto had
> open environment that Naruto had


Tobirama got shat on. When the explosion tags from his body stock to obito, he needed his bro's help. There was no plan before that. We saw the entire thing, and the only thing they talked about was about how outclassed they are. 


> Minato having no idea to whats going on - Tobirama tells him to get away
> open environment that Naruto had
> 
> Sarutobi telling him once agian to get away
> open environment that Naruto had


Hiruzen knows Tobirama since his childhood, and he knows his jutsus and his fighting style. That does not mean they were planning to get themselves shat on. 


> So what if Minato was already on his way to attack. The fastest man alive and with FTG could not pull back when he was still running toward obito...GTFO out of here with that shit



Not sure if you have some issues in the head. Minato continued his attack, and obito gained new power and speed. Obito countered Minato, yet he got his hand only. On the other hand Obito took a dumb on Tobirama.  


> Minato recognized the change in Juubito and still continued his attack. He could have pulled back before hand or even durring the attack
> open environment that Naruto had
> open environment that Naruto had


But he attacked, and his Kunai got destroyed. Again, he survive against a superior obito. Tobirama got shat on by weaker obito. No one cares how you see it, the damage was bigger against Tobirama. 





> LOL I won't even begin to touch this logic.


Good. 



> What are you even arguing about this time? Do you even realize what your typing half the time? No where did I ever state that Tobirama is faster then Minato since it's plain as day in the manga.
> 
> Control yourself



Good, so what's your point now? Since it's obvious that Minato is superior in speed to him, there is nothing to argue since that often what his fans deny and get butthurt about. 


> Yes someone who got killed by two psycho half jins that carry the six path tools and 20 elite tracking shinobi. Yet we have no knowledg of events prior or durring the event yet you claim he got fodderized.


Ginkaku stated that they wiped the floor with him. 
by Takl



> if u mean the last page, the convo in jp is brilliant. im yet to find a dead-on eng expression for each line in it but roughly it goes like this
> 
> -the 1st panel
> Gin Kaku: t's a damn shame... that we are under the jutsu of the second hokage we fucking wiped the floor with...innit, kinkaku?
> ...



Also, Kakuzu stated
Link removed


> Yet you compare Minato who had a bunch of fodders shit there pants due to a flee on sight warning. Young Bee also got the upper hand on Minato in that situation and could have done serious damage



Tobirama couldn't deal with far less fodders, mind you. 

- B got upper hand? Sure, that why was he scared from Minato's name, and fight with A all the time.
and yet, what was the conclusion?



Those 2 are the strongest tag-team in Kumo by the way. 


> You still believe this shit? Only a select few of the new geneartion has surppased the old. When was it ever stated the Minato is superior then Tobirama in overall ability. The onl thing i recall being mentioned is his superior speed & FTG usage.



The only thing Tobirama has is his speed. 
he was so proud of that as Madara stated. What else does he have? Fodder water jutsus? lol


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama got shat on. When the explosion tags from his body stock to obito, he needed his bro's help. There was no plan before that. We saw the entire thing, and the only thing they talked about was about how outclassed they are.
> 
> Hiruzen knows Tobirama since his childhood, and he knows his jutsus and his fighting style. That does not mean they were planning to get themselves shat on.
> 
> ...



How many times will you bring that Kin/Gin thing we dont know about?

Can you tell me how they beat The Second? Tell me please, because i dont know.

And young Ei is featless.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 24, 2014)

- We were talking about it. 
Also, just because you people don't like it, that does not mean it does not exist. 

I wonder if Tobirama's fans are going to discredit his victory against Izuna because we don't know what happened. lol
I don't like Tobirama, but I don't ignore that he is superior to Izuna (a MS user) just because I don't know what happened. It's obvious that Kishi intended to tell us that Tobirama is superior. Just how I believed that Hashirama is superior to Madara and Kakuzu even though we haven't seen his battle with Kakuzu. Just like how it obvious that Kishi intended to tell us that Madara is superior to Onoki and Mu, even though we haven't seen the battle...etc

- E is not featless. He had his lightning armour, and top speed punch. Not to mention his Lariato and those stuff. 
When he fought Minato the second time, he was already Raikage.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> - We were talking about it.
> Also, just because you people don't like it, that does not mean it does not exist.
> 
> I wonder if Tobirama's fans are going to discredit his victory against Izuna because we don't know what happened. lol
> ...



Um... Have you read the manga? It was shown that Tobirama killed Izuna with FTG slash. 

But it has not been shown how Gin/Kin beat him. That is why it cant be used as an arguement against Tobirama. Because we dont know *ANY* details about their fights with Tobirama.

Madara is superior to Muu and Oonoki not because he had a confrontation with them, but because his feats are vastly superior. In fact, the *ONLY* Shinobi who can beat Madara is Hashirama himself. Besides 8 Gates Guy, of course. And besides *Godlikes*, as i call them. Why? Because of his superior feats.

The same thing with Kakuzu.

You have to prove his young version Lightning armor and top speed punch were at least comparable to those of Raikage Ei. 

And can you bring here scans of his second fight with Minato? Or his other fights with Minato? 

And dont you think that there still is a... how many, more than 10 years gap? Too lazy to count.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 24, 2014)

> [=StarWanderer;52534162]Um... Have you read the manga? It was shown that Tobirama killed Izuna with FTG slash.


Yeah, but what about everything else? Like Izuna not using his sharingan/MS? 
Tobirama killed Izuna, and so did Kin/Gin to Tobirama. 



> But it has not been shown how Gin/Kin beat him. That is why it cant be used as an arguement against Tobirama. Because we dont know *ANY* details about their fights with Tobirama.



What would it matters if you learned that they killed him by breaking his neck, making a barbecue out of him, or shitting on him? Death is still one, and he died plain simple. 


> Madara is superior to Muu and Oonoki not because he had a confrontation with them, but because his feats are vastly superior. In fact, the *ONLY* Shinobi who can beat Madara is Hashirama himself. Besides 8 Gates Guy, of course. And besides *Godlikes*, as i call them. Why? Because of his superior feats.


No one cares. The thing is he battled them, and even though we haven't seen the actual battle, we know that he's superior. Butting "except for" is stupid. Konohamaro is the strongest character aside of those who are stronger than him.  




> You have to prove his young version Lightning armor and top speed punch were at least comparable to those of Raikage Ei.


No, YOU have to prove that they are not since you are the one who's bullshiting about it, when A stated that only Minato and Narudo dodged his top speed. 



> And can you bring here scans of his second fight with Minato? Or his other fights with Minato?
> And dont you think that there still is a... how many, more than 10 years gap? Too lazy to count.



No, and I don't care either. We have his statement, no one cares about you getting butthurt over it. That what was stated whether you like it or not. 

It's not like if Kishi can show every single detail for you people to get it.  

- I don't care about years. It's not like people can only get stronger, never to be weakened. There hasn't been any info about what happened with him during those years. And as such, we have no business of going in that road.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> Yeah, but what about everything else? Like Izuna not using his sharingan/MS?
> Tobirama killed Izuna, and so did Kin/Gin to Tobirama.



We know the details about his fight with Izuna. He killed Izuna with his *own* technique, with his *own* power and skill. Yet, we have *absolutely no* details about Tobirama's fights with Gin/Kin.

I can say "ah man, i wrecked him". My friend will ask me - "oh realy, how?". And i answer him - "it was easy, he had nothing and i had baseball bat, lol".



> What would it matters if you learned that they killed him by breaking his neck, making a barbecue out of him, or shitting on him? Death is still one, and he died plain simple.



Or used some technique that would have countered Minato as well? Or used some tricks that can do the same as well?



> No one cares. The thing is he battled them, and even though we haven't seen the actual battle, we know that he's superior. Butting "except for" is stupid. Konohamaro is the strongest character aside of those who are stronger than him.



We know that he is superior, because he already beat 5 Kage, inclusing Oonoki, in his Edo State and while toying with them. And because his feats are superior. Thats why we know Madara is superior.

How is that stupid? Madara can beat all shinobi, except Godlikes, 8 Gates Guy and Hashirama Senju. Its logical, its a fact. Where is a stupidity in this?



> No, YOU have to prove that they are not since you are the one who's bullshiting about it, when A stated that only Minato and Narudo dodged his top speed.



Its a fact they dodged his top speed. But his top speed is different in those time lines, unless you can show me:

1. Young Ei's tailed beast level chakra.
2. Young Ei's speed, reaction feats.
3. Young Ei's V2 Armor that is at least comparable to that of Shippuden/War Arc. Ei.

And we know Ei trained a lot in those years. 



> No, and I don't care either. We have his statement, no one cares about you getting butthurt over it that what was stated whether you like it or not.
> 
> It's not like if Kishi can show every single detail for you people to get it.
> 
> - I don't care about years. It's not like people can only get stronger, never to be weakened. There hasn't been any info about what happened with him during those years. And as such, we have no business of going in that road.



Those fights were more than 10 years prior to Shippuden time line. I dont think i need to explain the details. Read higher part of this post.

Dude, i have no butthurt at all. In fact, you wrote about it first. LoL, maybe it is you who have butthurt?


----------



## Trojan (Dec 24, 2014)

> [=StarWanderer;52534277]We know the details about his fight with Izuna. He killed Izuna with his *own* technique, with his *own* power and skill. Yet, we have *absolutely no* details about Tobirama's fights with Gin/Kin.



knowing the last second of the fight is not details. 



> Or used some technique that would have countered Minato as well? Or used some tricks that can do the same as well?


Or Tobirama is the one who used dirty tricks and still got his ass handled to him? Madara stated that
Tobirama usually attack when his foes are off-gourd and believe that they won, no? 

Again, Minato was fighting the strongest Tag-Team in Kumo by himself. The Databook states


> ?雷纏う神速の体術
> A Lightning-Clad, God-like Speed Taijutsu?
> something like that.
> 神速 (shinsoku) is godspeed, swiftness, godly/god-like speed.
> ...



If anything, Minato is the one who's going to get the most benefit if Kishi actually showed his fights with A & B. People do not give him credits for that at all, and even though A recognise Minato's sealing jutsus, people do not count any for Minato (not even the 4 elements seal), but only SF, and they probably do that only because it kills him anyway.  


> We know that he is superior, because he already beat 5 Kage, inclusing Oonoki, in his Edo State and while toying with them. And because his feats are superior. Thats why we know Madara is superior.


His Edo state is stated to be stronger than himself in his Golden Age. Also, even before the end of the battle, it was obvious that madara was stronger than both of them. 



> How is that stupid? Madara can beat all shinobi, except Godlikes, 8 Gates Guy and Hashirama Senju. Its logical, its a fact. Where is a stupidity in this?



you said the " the ONLY Shinobi who can beat Madara is Hashirama himself" and then you started to put exceptions for the others. And since there are others who can beat Madara, then Hashirama is NOT the only one.  


> Its a fact they dodged his top speed. But his top speed is different in those time lines, unless you can show me:
> 
> 1. Young Ei's tailed beast level chakra.
> 2. Young Ei's speed, reaction feats.
> ...


No where was it stated that is different or even implied to. Not to mention Minato dodged 8th Gate Gai, so yeah, it matters not whether it is different or not because for sure it is not greater than Gai's.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> knowing the last second of the fight is not details.



Ok, you made a point. But Tobirama's feats are still superior to those of Izuna.



> Or Tobirama is the one who used dirty tricks and still got his ass handled to him? Madara stated that
> Tobirama usually attack when his foes are off-gourd and believe that they won, no?



And maybe Kin/Gin have some item with which they could counter him, or Minato, if he was there? We dont know any details of that fight. You cant prove anything by bringing it here.



> Again, Minato was fighting the strongest Tag-Team in Kumo by himself. The Databook states
> Quote:
> “雷纏う神速の体術
> A Lightning-Clad, God-like Speed Taijutsu”
> ...



At what point of time his warfare ability was greatest in the village? At the Shippuden/War Arc. point, or when he was young?

And i assume muscule training can affect speed as well.

Plus, young Ei is still featless compare to Shippuden/War Arc. Ei.



> His Edo state is stated to be stronger than himself in his Golden Age. Also, even before the end of the battle, it was obvious that madara was stronger than both of them.



Kabuto's words can be understanded in many different ways. Logically, Madara was beyond his Golden Age because of his ability to use Mokuton and Rinnegan. But his physical traits, as it was shown later, were inferior to his life physical traits. There is no proof his physical traits were amped by Kabuto. And Kabuto havent known about his "Golden Age".

And if he was "Beyond his Golden Age", why not modified Edo Hashirama fought him on par and immobilised him?

Yeah, it was obvious. Because 5 Kage couldnt beat him. Anyway, i dont think that is so important. We know Madara's feats are superior. We know 5 Kage couldnt beat him when he toyed with them.



> you said the " the ONLY Shinobi who can beat Madara is Hashirama himself" and then you started to put exceptions for the others. And since there are others who can beat Madara, then Hashirama is NOT the only one.
> 
> Well, yeah, he is not the only one. There are Rikudou Naruto/Sasuke, Kaguya, Hamura, Hagoromo and 8 Gates Guy. And RT Madara with Rinnegan, by the way.
> 
> ...


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 24, 2014)

Sometimes how opponents rate you and their statements about you give you insight...
From the looks of it
kingaku and gingaku both did not think much of tobirama at all...while bee rembled at minatos mere name and ei thought he was unsurpassable..not to mention ei and bee are the canon stronger tag team and superior shinobi..darui was dodging v2 gingakus attacks very well...a ftg user should not have been intimidated by them when backed up with a squad that included a high class team that included sarutobi danzou ....


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Sometimes how opponents rate you and their statements about you give you insight...
> Jukai Kōtan
> kingaku and gingaku both did not think much of tobirama at all...while bee rembled at minatos mere name and ei thought he was unsurpassable..not to mention ei and bee are the canon stronger tag team and superior shinobi..darui was dodging v2 gingakus attacks very well...a ftg user should not have been intimidated by them when backed up with a squad that included a high class team that included sarutobi danzou ....



Are you sure about that?

And naither Ei, not Bee saw Tobirama fighting.

Plus, we dont know any details of Tobirama's fights with Gin/Kin.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 25, 2014)

After today's episode, I really don't see the fuss about Tobiramas reflexes and reactions.

Minato had a similar encounter with Juubito, and lost an arm. Yet Tobirama gets pinned down with several rods by just sage Madara. See what happens to Tobirama when he's not sacrificing his body to plant markings, he gets owned all the same.


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 25, 2014)

Tobirama is unmatched as an inventor(excepting maybe Oro) but when it comes to polishing his inventions he is not THAT good. Kabuto's mastery of ET was much greater than his, Naruto's use of KB's is better than his and Minato's Hirashin is more developed than his.

Tobirama did lay the foundations upon which many great shinobi did build their power and was a dude with a great amount of common sense and very intelligent. Not so good at mastering stuff. A specialist of many but master of none. Or at least not as great with Hirashin as Minato himself but still possibly being the fastest of his time.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> After today's episode, I really don't see the fuss about Tobiramas reflexes and reactions.
> 
> Minato had a similar encounter with Juubito, and lost an arm. Yet Tobirama gets pinned down with several rods by just sage Madara. See what happens to Tobirama when he's not sacrificing his body to plant markings, he gets owned all the same.



Yeah, but Minato also got a small bijuudama as a bonus and clearly couldn't compete even with BSM Naruto's assistance. Juubi Jins are so above those two that it is hard to see which one looks more impressive in such a battle IMO. And Sage Madara with one Rinnegan eye defeated all bijuus at once+ Gaara and later EMS Sasuke too. Even without bijuus this Madara was also a monster with whom only god tiers with Six Path chakra could deal with.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 25, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> After today's episode, I really don't see the fuss about Tobiramas reflexes and reactions.
> 
> Minato had a similar encounter with Juubito, and lost an arm. Yet Tobirama gets pinned down with several rods by just sage Madara. See what happens to Tobirama when he's not sacrificing his body to plant markings, he gets owned all the same.



The fact he was defeated by *alive Madara, with his Rinnegan and Hashirama's Sage Mode, with much better reflexes and speed than Minato*, proves nothing at all. 

If there was Minato in Tobirama's place, he would have lost too. 

When you can bring here Minato's reflexes and reactions feats, than we can talk. 

But until than, both Tobirama and Madara are superior to Minato in combat speed and reflexes.

Because both of them have better feats. 

But of course, you wont reply to me. You wont bring any of Minato's feats that are superior. You wont bring anything. You will just continue to wank. Thats all.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 25, 2014)

> =Arles Celes;52541119]Tobirama is unmatched as an inventor(excepting maybe Oro) but when it comes to polishing his inventions he is not THAT good. Kabuto's mastery of ET was much greater than his, Naruto's use of KB's is better than his and Minato's Hirashin is more developed than his.
> 
> Tobirama did lay the foundations upon which many great shinobi did build their power and was a dude with a great amount of common sense and very intelligent. Not so good at mastering stuff. A specialist of many but master of none. Or at least not as great with Hirashin as Minato himself but still possibly being the fastest of his time.


That what I am trying to tell those people. 
Also, It's not only Kabuto's, but even PArt 1 Oro's ET which was a joke is better than Tobirama's. 



> Yeah, but Minato also got a small bijuudama as a bonus and clearly couldn't compete even with BSM Naruto's assistance. Juubi Jins are so above those two that it is hard to see which one looks more impressive in such a battle IMO. And Sage Madara with one Rinnegan eye defeated all bijuus at once+ Gaara and later EMS Sasuke too. Even without bijuus this Madara was also a monster with whom only god tiers with Six Path chakra could deal with.



Minato and his child almost destroyed Obito's Gedu-damas. And they completetly destroyed his chakra arms, that Obito felt the need to use the Tree right away.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 25, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Yeah, but Minato also got a small bijuudama as a bonus and clearly couldn't compete even with BSM Naruto's assistance. Juubi Jins are so above those two that it is hard to see which one looks more impressive in such a battle IMO. And Sage Madara with one Rinnegan eye defeated all bijuus at once+ Gaara and later EMS Sasuke too. Even without bijuus this Madara was also a monster with whom only god tiers with Six Path chakra could deal with.



I understand what you're saying, totally fair points.

Here's how I see it, minato still reacted fast against JUUBITO, if not, he would have lost more than an arm, he would have been killed right there. But as minato said, he teleported just in time to avoid further damage. Yes minato got a bomb stuck to him too, that's because Juubito is just faster, it's highly understandable. No one should expect minato to perfectly react against a Juubi jin.

My problem is people who slack off minato for that incident. Yet the same thing happened to Tobirama against a much Much MUCH weaker opponent. Sage MADARA isn't even close to Juubito, as we all know. And Tobirama went in from behind and had the element of surprise (minato didn't have that, how convenient that Obito regained consciousness the moment minato got there). Anyway, Tobirama got evaded, Disarmed - (Madara doesn't have the same physical strength as Juubito. Juubito would have broken off Tobirama's arm with that hit, just like with minato). And then gets impaled 14 times (I counted), same way minato got a bomb stuck to him. The scenario is almost identical, difference being that Minatos opponent was way stronger.

So just became Tobirama managed to lay a hand on Juubito, after having to sacrifice half his body, doesn't mean minato in the same position can't do so. I have no doubt he could have. There is nothing that makes tobiramas reflexes or speed above Minatos, which is the only argument Tobirama fans seem to have here.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 25, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I understand what you're saying, totally fair points.
> 
> Here's how I see it, minato still reacted fast against JUUBITO, if not, he would have lost more than an arm, he would have been killed right there. But as minato said, he teleported just in time to avoid further damage. Yes minato got a bomb stuck to him too, that's because Juubito is just faster, it's highly understandable. No one should expect minato to perfectly react against a Juubi jin.
> 
> ...



Minato is fast. One of the fastest shinobi in Narutoverse. But he himself is not the fastest. His Shunshin is probably the fastest in Narutoverse. But his own reflexes, attacking speed - they are not as fast as you pretend them to be. And many other Minato fans pretend as well. His speed is highly overrated.

Now about your post.

Tobirama did better than Bijuu Mode Minato against Juubito (put a FTG formula on him). BM Minato did nothing, lost his arm, and would have been eradicated if Tobirama didnt save him. There wont even be a half of his body left.

And Tobirama didnt try to dodge Juubito, since he wanted to use his Kamikaze style.

And whats the problem with Tobirama losing to RT Madara? The only thing Minato could do against that Madara is retreating from battle. Theoretically. But if he tryed to fight him, he would end the same as Tobirama. Because he doesnt have speed to compete with RT Madara. In fact, Madara has better speed feats than Minato.

Oh, and Minato was in his Bijuu Mode. I am interesting what would have happened if it was base Edo Minato there.

And you are still wanking, just as i expected. No offence.


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 25, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I understand what you're saying, totally fair points.
> 
> Here's how I see it, minato still reacted fast against JUUBITO, if not, he would have lost more than an arm, he would have been killed right there. But as minato said, he teleported just in time to avoid further damage. Yes minato got a bomb stuck to him too, that's because Juubito is just faster, it's highly understandable. No one should expect minato to perfectly react against a Juubi jin.
> 
> ...



IMO I see the body/eye interpretation through the manga as full set of Rinnegan eyes fully mastered by its original user as = Juubi Jin power. Given that those were RS main powers(seemingly referred as the power of the body and eyes) and even after Juubi Jins came into picture Obito still hyped Madara's Rinnegan quite a lot with the latter never being able to go all out due to BZ betrayal.

I see Base Minato as most likely the guy with the best reactions and speed aside from those that are Juubi Jins, possessors of Six Path chakra, BM/BSM Naruto, 8th gate Guy and probably SM Madara. Maybe EMS Sasuke too. 

With Juubito VS Minato and Tobirama Vs Juubito we have to remember though that the Minato who faced Juubito was his KCM variant which is superior to what he was in life. Obviously KCM Minato is like 1-2 tiers above Tobirama and not just "stronger".  Not even gonna talk about BM Minato. With Base Minato and "Base" Tobirama though I still see Minato as superior but I understand why some people might argue either way. Would Base Minato dodge Juubito's attack in time as his KCM self did and could he mark Juubito without having to sacrifice his body? Hard to say given how powerful those Juubi Jins are. Nevertheless in sheer speed contest and Hirashin mastery Base Minato should be superior to Tobirama even if the difference is not huge.

I sometimes wonder about how different is the body speed(not shunshin) and general taijutsu improvement that Juubi Jins get. Obviously we saw Juubito blitzing the extremely fast KCM Naruto(who outspeed Ei) and EMS Sasuke(with crazy EMS prediction ability) but I wonder how much does this mode improve just "normal" speed. For example I see Base Naruto holding his own against Itachi in taijutsu and yet his KCM form seemed to be roughly even with Itachi while possibly being fast enough to blitz Itachi with a shunshin. So I wonder how much did Madara's reactions and striking speed(not shunshin) after becoming a Juubi Jin. Pre-SM Madara could still blitz SM Naruto so would it be so surprising if SM Madara with Rinnegan could block Minato's attack and kick him like he did but without perhaps severing his arm? I think that Tobirama should be cut some slack for him defeat at SM Madara's hands even if I still see Minato as faster and generally better shinobi than Tobirama.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 25, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> IMO I see the body/eye interpretation through the manga as full set of Rinnegan eyes fully mastered by its original user as = Juubi Jin power. Given that those were RS main powers(seemingly referred as the power of the body and eyes) and even after Juubi Jins came into picture Obito still hyped Madara's Rinnegan quite a lot with the latter never being able to go all out due to BZ betrayal.
> 
> I see Base Minato as most likely the guy with the best reactions and speed aside from those that are Juubi Jins, possessors of Six Path chakra, BM/BSM Naruto, 8th gate Guy and probably SM Madara. Maybe EMS Sasuke too.
> 
> ...



Unless that rinnegan user or body user was give rikudo chakra by the sage of six paths, then they van't equal a juubi jin. Remember kakashi when he got double MS, was able to fight kaguya with little struggle and even blitzed her. Normal kakashi can never do that. Madara only had regular sage mode and rinnegan, he didn't have rikudo power until after becoming the juubi jin. So sm Madara and Juubito are nowhere close to the same power and speed. Madara even said after obito became the juubi jin, that he gained the power of the sage of six paths. Minato sensed how strong madara became as a jinchuuirki, even stronger than juubito. Obito hyped the power of double rinnegan, but it still pales in comparison to having the juubi powers. Nagato had both too, yet Nagato is no more than a fly in front of juubito.

I've already said this before, you will probs disagree but.. kcm doesn't give you increased reflexes or reaction speed to be honest. It boosts your speed, but then minato already had fabulous speed, don't think it could be improved much more to the point where it didn't become juubi jin level. not to mention minato couldn't even use kcm at first properly. Remember unlike naruto, minato had no training, Minato couldn't use chakra arms or bijuu mode. He was learning as he went along.

The juubito that faced minato was Perfect Juubito. The juubito that faced tobirama was brain dead reated obito, he wasn't in full control and was weaker as a result of this. In terms of Hiraishin and pure speed, only a few special cased individuals will argue here. I have nothing more to say on the matter.

And I'm not trying to deliberately belittle tobirama for being bested by sm madara. It's just people will say tobirama > minato because he tagged a mindless juubito (by sacrificing half his body). Yet against sm madara with 1 eye, got completely trashed in this situation where he couldn't afford sacrifice any limbs against a more incontrol opponent. Doesn't change the fact juubito was still stronger though. Then people say because tobirama pulled off that feat, makes him faster reactor because he lost an arm to Perfect juubito. WHich I've always said is a ninsense comparison. Hence why Im using sm madara vs tobirama and sage of six paths obito vs minato as comparison. Where was the almighty reactions from tobiama against madara, that people were boasting about with dumb juubito. That's why I always said, it required half his body sacrificed to pull off.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 25, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> IMO I see the body/eye interpretation through the manga as full set of Rinnegan eyes fully mastered by its original user as = Juubi Jin power. Given that those were RS main powers(seemingly referred as the power of the body and eyes) and even after Juubi Jins came into picture Obito still hyped Madara's Rinnegan quite a lot with the latter never being able to go all out due to BZ betrayal.
> 
> *I see Base Minato as most likely the guy with the best reactions and speed aside from those that are Juubi Jins, possessors of Six Path chakra, BM/BSM Naruto, 8th gate Guy and probably SM Madara. Maybe EMS Sasuke too. *
> 
> ...



7th Gate Gai has faster reactions/reflexes and speed than Minato, as a comparison between their short fights with Juudara can easily show. Also Kakashi is at the very least on the same level of reactions/reflexes and speed of Minato (1) if not better, as an exhausted Kakashi could perceive Juudara's speed (even if not react physically or even with jutsu) while Minato couldn't even perceive Juudara's speed in his mind to use Hiraishin, and that was SM Minato. And Tobirama has at very least comparable reactions to Minato.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

Gai even in 8th Gate does not have faster speed than Minato. 
as the comparison between them directly show that. 

as for the scan with Zetsu. lol
Minato was not even using his shunshin or anything. It's almost 2015 and people don't get that not
every movement equal to full speed. 

Kakashi couldn't even deal with Minato's flying arm for God's sake. He couldn't even move against Base Obito
when he started to slice him apart with his gaiant shurikens. 

I suppose Lee without even the gates is faster than BM Naruto, since Lee cut Madara in half.
Zetsu is also faster than JJ Madara since he killed him (and it does not matter whether he was moving or not according to that logic as long as he hit him)


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

> Gai even in 8th Gate does not have faster speed than Minato.





Just look at here:



And now, at here:

the background

And keep in mind that was 7 Gates Guy, not 8 Gates.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

You're destroying the fucking page with oversize pic. 





> A wandering star in a quest to find love.



Love does not exist. You will never find love. U_U


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

> You're destroying the fucking page with oversize pic.



Reacted to Gudoudama, not to Juubidara. And Guy probably slowed down to prepare chakra for his last Evening Elephant punch. Not only Minato "reacted" in that instance. Kakashi also used Kamui, for example. 

I will wait for you to comment my scans.



> Love does not exist. You will never find love. U_U



It has nothing to do with our debate. Now, i'll wait for you to comment my scans. 

Because it must be obvious Guy even in 7 Gates has better combat speed and reflexes than Edo SM Minato, who couldnt react to Juubidara *at all and was blitzed*.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

- No, Gai was told to not slow down. IF you're going to the "probably", then Minato probably slowed down as well
because it is hard for him to deal with the SM chakra. U_U

- Your scans does not prove anything since we saw a direct comparison between the two. Not to mention, unlike
in Minato's case, Madara for PnJ decided to go backwards instead of actually attacking, since Gai is a living person
Kishi wouldn't take the risk of making him lose his limbs, especially before using the 8th Gate.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

> - No, Gai was told to not slow down. IF you're going to the "probably", then Minato probably slowed down as well because it is hard for him to deal with the SM chakra. U_U



Hard to deal with? He just told he was using it for the first time, as i remember. Thats all.

And Kakashi managed to use Kamui on Juubidara's Gudoudama. Is he as fast as Minato and 8 Gates Guy? Rock Lee reacted to Gudoudama no problem. Is he as fast as Minato, Juubidara or 8 Gates Guy? 

And show me scans of Lee doing anything to Madara. Because i dont remember such a thing.



> - You scans does not prove anything since we saw a direct comparison between the two. Not to mention, unlike
> in Minato's case, Madara for PnJ decided to go backwards instead of actually attacking, since Gai is a living person
> Kishi wouldn't take the rest of making him lose his limbs, especially before using the 8th Gate.



It was a comparison between the two. And it has been shown 7 Gates Guy is faster than SM Edo Minato.

And to go backwards of actually attacking, since Guy is a living person? Wat? *Where is any logic in that explanation?* What sense there was for Madara to slow down, especially when Guy is a taijutsu specialist and taijutsu is one of the very few things that are effective against Juubi Jin?


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

- The chakra is hard to maintain or something, I can't remember what he said exactly. 
- No, Kakashi had helped from Minato, and that's why Minato gave him and Lee his Kunais. 
- Chapter 617 when Lee fodderstompped Edo Madara with 1 kick. Is he stronger than Hashirama? 
- And it was shown that base Minato is faster than 8th Gate Gai in the 5th step, the fastest step. 
- I did not say Madara slowed down, I said he went backwards instead of actually attacking right away. 

Not to mention he was going to die there to begin with, it was Lee who saved him.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

> - The chakra is hard to maintain or something, I can't remember what he said exactly.
> - No, Kakashi had helped from Minato, and that's why Minato gave him and Lee his Kunais.
> - Chapter 617 when Lee fodderstompped Edo Madara with 1 kick. Is he stronger than Hashirama?
> - And it was shown that base Minato is faster than 8th Gate Gai in the 5th step, the fastest step.
> ...



1. Thats the thing. I cant remember too. And my internet is too slow right now to look for a manga. Thats why i want you to bring scans here.
2. Kakashi's Kamui speed and precise has nothing to do with Minato. The same is with Lee throughing Kunai just it time.
3. Was it when Madara was attached to Juubi? Maybe that was the reason why he couldnt dodge it?
4. The fastest step - the punch itself is the fastest. And not only Minato was able to "react" there.
5. He wasnt attacking in Minato's case aither. He was more counter-attacking. But he couldnt do the same with 7 Gates Guy. He blitzed Minato, but was unable to do the same with 7 gates Guy.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> 1. Thats the thing. I cant remember too.* And my internet is too slow right now to look for a manga*. Thats why i want you to bring scans here.
> 2. Kakashi's Kamui speed and precise has nothing to do with Minato. The same is with Lee throughing Kunai just it time.
> 3. Was it when Madara was attached to Juubi? Maybe that was the reason why he couldnt dodge it?
> 4. The fastest step - the punch itself is the fastest. And not only Minato was able to "react" there.
> 5. He wasnt attacking in Minato's case aither. He was more counter-attacking. But he couldnt do the same with 7 Gates Guy. He blitzed Minato, but was unable to do the same with 7 gates Guy.



1- Tell me about it. 
19
2- Kamui is one of the fastest jutsus. Obito trolled that same madara with it. Less was using the gates as well.
3- Obito was attached to the same Juubi, and he dodged Naruto's FRS. 
4- yes, his physical speed increases, and that's why his punch does as well. Good, so they also have that feats.
5- Yes he did, how else was Minato's arm cut off. :rofl

Again, 7th Gate Gai was countered as well, and he was about to die right there had they not saved him.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

> 1- Tell me about it.
> 19
> 2- Kamui is one of the fastest jutsus. Obito trolled that same madara with it. Less was using the gates as well.
> 3- Obito was attached to the same Juubi, and he dodged Naruto's FRS.
> ...



1. And do you have an explanation to why he should have slowed down? He used SM to increase his reflexes and speed.
2. Obito dodged his 1 attack with it and thats all. And that Obito is >>> base Minato feats-wise. I highly doubt base Minato can fight Guy, Kakashi and BM Naruto at the same time. 

And, just as i wrote already - Kakashi's Kamui and Lee's through have nothing to do with Minato's speed and reflexes.
3. Is FRS as fast as Gates Lee? And did you notice Obito dodged it only thanks to his Kamui power? If Madara had the same jutsu, he would have done the same thing as well.
4. At what moment his speed increases for the punch? He could have slowed down and than increased his speed drastically in order to hit Madara.
5. Minato attacked him and he effortlessly cut his arm and kicked him 2 times = blitzed him. He was completely unable to counter Guy in such manner. He was unable to blitz Guy. And that proves Guy has better combat speed and reflexes than SM Edo Minato.

And he was lieing down because of Gates side effects. Anyway, Juubidara blitzed Edo SM Minato, but could not blitz 7 Gates Guy.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

> =StarWanderer;52546170]1. And do you have an explanation to why he should have slowed down? He used SM to increase his reflexes and speed.


ِAnd so did Gai by opening the gates. 
Minato used SM because it effects the Juubi's hosts, not because speed or reflexes actually. 


> 2. Obito dodged his 1 attack with it and thats all. And that Obito is >>> base Minato feats-wise. I highly doubt base Minato can fight Guy, Kakashi and BM Naruto at the same time.


Minato's clone one shotted that Obito.  



> And, just as i wrote already - Kakashi's Kamui and Lee's through have nothing to do with Minato's speed and reflexes.


I don't care, you are the one who mentioned them. What I know is Base Minato showed to outpaced Gai whether you like it or not.


> 3. Is FRS as fast as Gates Lee? And did you notice Obito dodged it only thanks to his Kamui power? If Madara had the same jutsu, he would have done the same thing as well.


They arrived at the same time. Also, Madara could have used his Susanoo as far as I am concerned. 



> 4. At what moment his speed increases for the punch? He could have slowed down and than increased his speed drastically in order to hit Madara.


Bring the page where it was stated that he slowed down then. 



> 5. Minato attacked him and he effortlessly cut his arm and kicked him 2 times = blitzed him. He was completely unable to counter Guy in such manner. He was unable to blitz Guy. And that proves Guy has better combat speed and reflexes than SM Edo Minato.


And base Minato outpaced 8th Gate Gai, and that's prove Minato is faster than him. Plain simple. 



> And he was lieing down because of Gates side effects. Anyway, Juubidara blitzed Edo SM Minato, but could not blitz 7 Gates Guy.


That's his own problem. The point is Base Minato outpaced 8th Gate Gai. The manga is in front of you.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

> And so did Gai by opening the gates.
> Minato used SM because it effects the Juubi's hosts, not because speed or reflexes actually.



SM increases users speed and reflexes. Thus, Minato's speed and reflexes were increased under SM.

And the fact is - 7 Gates Guy is faster than SM Edo Minato and most likely alive Minato as well.



> Minato's clone one shotted that Obito.



When Obito was hurt and when Madara wanted to use him for RT technique? Nice example.



> I don't care, you are the one who mentioned them. What I know is Base Minato showed to outpaced Gai whether you like it or not.



Um, outpase? He just used his Hiraishin. Its nothing like outpasing.

And Kakashi, with Lee, reacted to Juubidara's Gudoudamas, just like Minato. And they did it before Guy punched Juubidara. So, Lee and Kakashi are both in the same speed class as Minato?



> They arrived at the same time. Also, Madara could have used his Susanoo as far as I am concerned.



The quastion is, could he use it when he was attached to Juubi.



> Bring the page where it was stated that he slowed down then.



Well, that explains why Lee, Kakashi and Minato "helped" him there.



> That's his own problem. The point is Base Minato outpaced 8th Gate Gai. The manga is in front of you.



Base Minato never outpased 8 Gates Guy. he just used Hiraishi. Thats all.

And 7 Gates Guy was faster than SM Minato. The manga is in front of you.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

When Lee and Kakashi can use that, and go to konoha in 1 second, then yeah sure.  

the rest is only us going in circles.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 26, 2014)

Proof of sage mode increasing speed and reflexes? Doesn't exist.

It gives the user great sensory ability and increased perception and danger sensing. In increases physical strength and durability and enhances ninjutsu and taijutsu power.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

> When Lee and Kakashi can use that, and go to konoha in 1 second, then yeah sure.
> 
> the rest is only us going in circles.



Teleportation has nothing to do with speed. 

You wrote Minato outpased 8 Gates Guy, right? 8th Gates Guy was blitzing Juubidara. So you probably think Minato has better speed and reflexes than Juubidara, right?

If you realy think in that way, i want you to explain:

1. This: the background
2. This: the background
3. This: the background
the background
4. And this: the background
the background


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Proof of sage mode increasing speed and reflexes? Doesn't exist.
> 
> It gives the user great sensory ability and increased perception and danger sensing. In increases physical strength and durability and enhances ninjutsu and taijutsu power.



Increases perception and danger sensing... But yeah, dont remember it to be stated that SM improves speed and reflexes.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

Teleportation is speed, you're only delusional my dear. Just like how Minato was praised to be the fastest Shinobi of all time, and Tobirama was praised to be the fastest in his time because of their teleportation.

and I don't know what do you want me to explain exactly.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Teleportation is speed, you're only delusional my dear. Just like how Minato was praised to be the fastest Shinobi of all time, and Tobirama was praised to be the fastest in his time because of their teleportation.
> 
> and I don't know what do you want me to explain exactly.



Teleportation is a technique. It has nothing to do with users movement speed and reflexes. 

And praise proves nothing at all.

You dont know? Nevermind, you wont do that anyway.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 26, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> 7th Gate Gai has faster reactions/reflexes and speed than Minato, as a comparison between their short fights with Juudara can easily show. Also Kakashi is at the very least on the same level of reactions/reflexes and speed of Minato (1) if not better, as an exhausted Kakashi could perceive Juudara's speed (even if not react physically or even with jutsu) while Minato couldn't even perceive Juudara's speed in his mind to use Hiraishin, and that was SM Minato. And Tobirama has at very least comparable reactions to Minato.



Gai is in no way duking it out with jubidara in cqc..he fact is hirudara is gais fastest attack...it is stated by the guy himself he has absolutely no need to lie he is talking about himself and not comparing himself or making blank statements like this is the strongest attack we have no reason to deny it..no point in hyping the attack if a simple punch is superior madara dodged every attack nonchalantly and the moment he realized that gai was somewhat of a threat he easily bitchslapped gais fastest and strongest attack in 7th gate away which resulted in him lying on his ass helpless..essentially gai was also helpless when madara counterattacked..gai used his fastest attack  madara casually bitchspaeed it away this is gai after..
1 
1

helpless and dead without lees intervention....

If gai was capable of tangoing with juubijins in cqc why in gods name didnt he casually tag obito in their exchange with the gedo...obito when materialising would get overwhelmed easily with that sort of speed..he would absolutely blitz edo madara and the v2 jinchuriki...none of this happened and yet you guys get so defensive against minatos feat with 8th gate gai...

Kakashi with better reflexes then minato wow....

this is kakashi kamuing out and attempting to kill obito before he can strike down minato shunshins from  behind the bijus location and stops him..
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 26, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> helpless and dead without lees intervention....
> 
> If gai was capable of tangoing with juubijins in cqc why in gods name didnt he casually tag obito in their exchange with the gedo...obito when materialising would get overwhelmed easily with that sort of speed..he would absolutely blitz edo madara and the v2 jinchuriki...none of this happened and yet you guys get so defensive against minatos feat with 8th gate gai...



Because Gai was in base.
Because if he was in gates, Obito would've probably taken a defensive method and Gai's gates wouldn't have worked.

There are two options. And please, don't tell me you believe that Minato reacted to 8th gated Gai's speed .

If you are, please be so kind to tell me why Rock Lee's Kunai throwing bypassed Gai, too.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 26, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Gai is in no way duking it out with jubidara in cqc..he fact is hirudara is gais fastest attack...it is stated by the guy himself he has absolutely no need to lie he is talking about himself and not comparing himself or making blank statements like this is the strongest attack we have no reason to deny it..no point in hyping the attack if a simple punch is superior madara dodged every attack nonchalantly and the moment he realized that gai was somewhat of a threat he easily bitchslapped gais fastest and strongest attack in 7th gate away which resulted in him lying on his ass helpless..essentially gai was also helpless when madara counterattacked..gai used his fastest attack  madara casually bitchspaeed it away this is gai after..
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> ...


And so what's your point? No one is saying that 7th Gate Gai > Juudara, but at the same time it's clear as day that 7th Gate Gai > Minato. Minato attacked Juudara head on (using space-time ninjutsu to surprise him), tried to hit him, was immediately counter-hit without being able to finish his attack and without being able to react, then was hit again. Gai attacked Juudara head on (using raw physical speed to surprise him), tried to hit him, was parried/dodged but still managed to pressure Juudara to the point that Juudara couldn't counter-hit him until he unleashed his final attack, that Juudara overpowered, and then defeated. So: Minato couldn't even finish his attack, Gai could perform multiple attacks plus his final attack; Juudara could easily react and counter-hit Minato, he couldn't counter-hit Gai until he finished his barrage, because even if he could react to him Gai's speed and reflexes (and taijutsu skill) still didn't let him have the time to just stomp him away like he did with Minato. Again: Minato tries to surprise Juudara with Hiraishin to land Rasengan but Juudara react with ease and counterhits by cutting the attacking arm and then kicking Minato away like shit, with Minato not being able to react and use Hiraishin in both istances. Minato isn't even able to end the attack he was trying, before he is swapped away. Gai clearly pressures Juudara with his speed and taijutsu skills, without letting him to touch him with the Gudodama staff or balls, and manages to corner him and launch his finishing attack, even if then is countered and defeated back. 7th Gate Gai > Minato, 8th Gate Gai >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>> as he blitzed and ragdolled the same Juudara that counterblitzed and foddered Minato like nothing. 

Gai didn't use Gates against Obito, ask Kishimoto why. Anyway base Gai could counter Obito's Kamui with quick reflexes and taijutsu skill, Obito couldn't warp him in a direct confrontation, if Obito could have used more ninjutsu then Gai could have used Gates, so I don't see what's your point. He blitzes the Edo jinchuriki, using the 6th Gate he counterblitzed them together with Kakashi (1)(2) landing a lot of hits on them. He didn't use Gates against Madara, he only used Hiru Tora once, and he blitzed Edo Madara with that, Madara couldn't react to hit from a perfectly frontal position (3)(4).

It's not a feat, come on. Not even most Minato fans take this seriously. Gai wasn't using his full speed, just to start, because he was moving in free air kicking on the air to travel in it, so that wasn't obviously his 8th Gate speed, not even close. In the same instance, we have Rock Lee of all people throwing a kunai that travels so fast that it outspeeds Gai's movement appearing in front of him: do you think that, as fast as Lee can throw a kunai, he can ever throw a kunai so fast that it outspeeds 8th Gate Gai's speed? Come on... I don't think that there is a single person that can believe this on this world. It's so nonsense I won't even explain why. Also, how could Minato react to 8th Gate Gai and use Hiraishin faster than he can move, if he cannot react and use Hiraishin against the much slower Juudara, who was blitzed by 8th Gate Gai? It makes no sense. If you think that Gai slowed down because he was moving in mid air and because otherwise his companions couldn't have kept up with him to provvide help, everything makes sense. Just use your brain. If you don't, well believe that Lee's kunai throwing speed = Minato's reflexes >> 8th Gate Gai's speed >>>>>>> Juudara's speed >>>>>>> Minato's reflexes, that's fine to me. Lee one-shotting high kage levels just by throwing kunai all around, LoL...

This means nothing. It's clear that shinobi leg speed > shinobi arm speed, as nonsense as it can be, but Kishimoto thinks it's logical and it's his manga. so that is. Base Naruto's leg speed was faster than Sasuke's arm against Sakura. Kakashi's leg speed was faster than Sasuke's Chidori arm against Sakura. Kakashi's leg speed was faster than Pain's arm against Iruka. Minato's leg speed was faster than Kakashi's arm against Obito. Naruto's leg speed was faster than Obito and Madara's arm. And so on, I can list tens of examples, but I think you've got the point. In reactions/reflexes and leg speed their feats show they are at very least on the same level, when I think at Kakashi outreacting in jutsu speed and outspeeding in physical speed Obito (when Minato couldn't do the same physically, but only with reflexes, and against a young Obito, not an adult one) and perceiving Juudara's speed even if being in an exhausted state (when Minato couldn't perceive it and was hit three times without being able to react even in his mind, to use Hiraishin to at least run away with instant teleporting), I'd go with Kakashi.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Gai is in no way duking it out with jubidara in cqc..he fact is hirudara is gais fastest attack...it is stated by the guy himself he has absolutely no need to lie he is talking about himself and not comparing himself or making blank statements like this is the strongest attack we have no reason to deny it..no point in hyping the attack if a simple punch is superior madara dodged every attack nonchalantly and the moment he realized that gai was somewhat of a threat he easily bitchslapped gais fastest and strongest attack in 7th gate away which resulted in him lying on his ass helpless..essentially gai was also helpless when madara counterattacked..gai used his fastest attack  madara casually bitchspaeed it away this is gai after..
> 4
> 4
> 
> ...




Hirudora is his fastest punch, but in order to make Hirudora, you have to make *handseals*. This arguement was countered already. Not only i wrote about it to you. But you keep bringing that up. Keep wanking.

And yeah, Juubidara dodged all his attacks. But he was unable to blitz Guy because of Guys speed and reflexes in 7th Gate. On the other hand, SM Minato was fodder-blitzed without any effort at all.

Realy, man. How long will you continue to wank?

And show me how Guy opens 7th Gate in those fights. 

Oh, such a *"cool"* speed feat, lol. And what do you wanna prove with that?


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Because Gai was in base.
> Because if he was in gates, Obito would've probably taken a defensive method and Gai's gates wouldn't have worked.
> 
> There are two options. And please, don't tell me you believe that Minato reacted to 8th gated Gai's speed .
> ...



Did gated lee throw the kunai alonside gai? no he threw the kunai in the path of gai it was in now way as fast as gated gais speed....i ca throw a rock in the path of a mclaren f1 as its crossing am i as fast?

They are not racing guy...lee threw the kunai in the path of gai while using his gated strength ...do u have any panels of gaaras sand outpacing gai no ...4 here we have in canon gaara saying his sand is lower then madara..in exchange minato says thats why he is here he gave his kunai to kakashi so he  teleported kakashi and the sand there.. read the manga clearly and the feat is easily explainable...

he teleported kakashi to this kunai thrown earlier near madara..4

He specifically asked gai to keep going at full speed...no slowing down as long he uses his ftg defensively he can react perfectly well against god tiers the problem occurs if he goes head on in physical speed in cqc there he loses


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Did gated lee throw the kunai alonside gai? no he threw the kunai in the path of gai it was in now way as fast as gated gais speed....i ca throw a rock in the path of a mclaren f1 as its crossing am i as fast?



He threw it with precise.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 26, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Did gated lee throw the kunai alonside gai? no he threw the kunai in the path of gai it was in now way as fast as gated gais speed....i ca throw a rock in the path of a mclaren f1 as its crossing am i as fast?
> 
> 
> They are not racing guy...lee threw the kunai in the path of gai while using his gated strength ...do u have any panels of gaaras sand outpacing gai no ...4 here we have in canon gaara saying his sand is lower then madara..in exchange minato says thats why he is here he gave his kunai to kakashi so he  teleported kakashi and the sand there.. read the manga clearly and the feat is easily explainable...
> ...



Look at your panels bro. Lee threw the Kunai before Gai advanced in mid-air.

One panel shows Gai being pretty close the black balls. Next Panel shows Lee throwing the Kunai, and the Kunai travels fast enough to intercept Gai even when he was pretty close. The thing looks way too impressive when you consider that not only Gai was moving towards the black balls, but the Black Balls were moving towards Gai _as well_. And Lee threw the Kunai after both were too close.

He needs to throw it faster than Gai in order to intercept it.

Not only that. Minato even had the time to think how well Lee did .
And he never said to go full speed. He just said to keep going. So no, Gai should've slowed down in order for this to happen.

I can give Minato the benefit of the doubt and say that he can Dodge a strike from 8th Gated Gai, depending on the distance (It should be very confortable for him), however, this is as far as he can get because once he teleports, he won't know what killed him.

And this can happen with anybody with Juubito's speed or beyond.


----------



## JuicyG (Dec 26, 2014)

BM Minato > Edo Tobirama > Living Minato >= Living Tobirama

Not sure why people want to change or mess with the above true statement...


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> BM Minato > Edo Tobirama > Living Minato >= Living Tobirama
> 
> Not sure why people want to change or mess with the above true statement...



BM Minato > Tobirama.

Tobirama > Base/SM Minato.


----------



## Cognitios (Dec 26, 2014)

BM Minato > KCM Minato > Edo Tobirama > SM Minato >= Tobirama >= Minato

Having edos screws it up a bit, depends completely on what edo.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> BM Minato > KCM Minato > Edo Tobirama > SM Minato >= Tobirama >= Minato
> 
> Having edos screws it up a bit, depends completely on what edo.



Minato > Edo Minato and Tobirama > Edo Tobirama. Edo's are not as powerfull as alive ones.

But i dont know if Tobirama knows sealing jutsu. But he is knowledgable on Edo Tensei, since he created it.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Look at your panels bro. Lee threw the Kunai before Gai advanced in mid-air.
> 
> One panel shows Gai being pretty close the black balls. Next Panel shows Lee throwing the Kunai, and the Kunai travels fast enough to intercept Gai even when he was pretty close. The thing looks way too impressive when you consider that not only Gai was moving towards the black balls, but the Black Balls were moving towards Gai _as well_. And Lee threw the Kunai after both were too close.
> 
> ...



and yet it happened in canon defensively minato can ftg against god tiers...he cant go head to head against them in cqc ofcourse never said he could..theere was distance between the balls and gai he threw them between that lee threw them in gais path next time i throw a pebble in the path of a speeding buggati veyron ill be happy with the knowledge im as fast...


----------



## Cognitios (Dec 26, 2014)

> Minato > Edo Minato and Tobirama > Edo Tobirama. Edo's are not as powerfull as alive ones.
> 
> But i dont know if Tobirama knows sealing jutsu. But he is knowledgable on Edo Tensei, since he created it.


Base Minato > BM Minato
I can't tell if troll or wot
I guess EMS Madara > Edo Madara too huh?
That's a rule of thumb, not a law. Edo Tensei can provide extra benefits to those who in life are crippled by disease or injury, have extra benefits in edo tensei like Minato having the kyuubi or Madara having Rinnegan + Moukton, or in Tobirama's case (maybe orochimaru and kabuto's too) having knowledge on edo tensei because he created it and that allows him to use it as a more effective weapon. Tobirama's pros in increase of arsenal outweigh the cons.

As a rule of thumb edo tensei allows the dead thing to have slightly less physical stats and a slightly smaller chakra pool. It also allows for a lot faster chakra regen and physical regen. It also allows in Tobirama's case a wider arsenal. For Tobirama and a lot of other ninja the pros outweigh the cons so they are more powerful.

See how that works?


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 26, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> and yet it happened in canon defensively minato can ftg against god tiers...he cant go head to head against them in cqc ofcourse never said he could..theere was distance between the balls and gai he threw them between that lee threw them in gais path next time i throw a pebble in the path of a speeding buggati veyron ill be happy with the knowledge im as fast...



In canon he cannot.




Mind you, 8th Gate Gai's speed is far above those two's. Not to mention his top speed that bends the space all around...


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 26, 2014)

BM Minato > KCM Minato > Alive SM Minato > Base Minato >>>>>>> Darui > Kin/Gin >> Tobirama

The above statement is canon from manga.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Dec 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Look at your panels bro. Lee threw the Kunai before Gai advanced in mid-air.
> 
> One panel shows Gai being pretty close the black balls. Next Panel shows Lee throwing the Kunai, and the Kunai travels fast enough to intercept Gai even when he was pretty close. The thing looks way too impressive when you consider that not only Gai was moving towards the black balls, but the Black Balls were moving towards Gai _as well_. And Lee threw the Kunai after both were too close.
> 
> ...



The only thing I'll say is that it you count interception feats and dynamic entries as speed feats, even the coherent parts of the manga get stupid.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 26, 2014)

> Base Minato > BM Minato
> I can't tell if troll or wot
> I guess EMS Madara > Edo Madara too huh?
> That's a rule of thumb, not a law. Edo Tensei can provide extra benefits to those who in life are crippled by disease or injury, have extra benefits in edo tensei like Minato having the kyuubi or Madara having Rinnegan + Moukton, or in Tobirama's case (maybe orochimaru and kabuto's too) having knowledge on edo tensei because he created it and that allows him to use it as a more effective weapon. Tobirama's pros in increase of arsenal outweigh the cons.
> ...



Alive Base Minato is >>>>>> Edo Base Minato. Thats what i meant.

And EMS Madara is better than Edo Madara in anything, except he doesnt have Mokuton and Rinnegan. 

Edo Tensei doesnt bring someone in his prime. Edo's are weaker than alive ones. Even Edo Hokage's were weaker than when they were alive, except Minato had BM.



> BM Minato > KCM Minato > Alive SM Minato > Base Minato >>>>>>> Darui > Kin/Gin >> Tobirama
> 
> The above statement is canon from manga.



Its your opinion, not canon. Wrong opinion, i might add. 

And we dont know how Kin/Gin defeated Tobirama. But i am kinda used to Minato's fans bringing that up, lol.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> BM Minato > Edo Tobirama > Living Minato >= Living Tobirama
> 
> Not sure why people want to change or mess with the above true statement...



Because it is not true? 
for once we have a clear statement from Tobirama himself that they are "almost" at full power. So, his alive-self was still stronger. Second, Living Minato is not >= Tobirama, but rather >>> Tobirama as provide by feats, hype, and portrayal.

Tobirama is around Darui's level though.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

> Living Minato is not >= Tobirama, but rather >>> Tobirama as provide by feats, hype, and portrayal



Bullsh*t. Complete bullsh*t. Feats-wise, Tobirama is better, since Edo Tobirama had better combat speed and reflexes than BM Edo Minato. And hype proves nothing at all. 

And they both have great portrayl.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 27, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> In canon he cannot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats not using his ftg defensively that's him going on the attack trying to land an attack in a battle of physical speed from the front head on learn reading comprehension..


----------



## Trojan (Dec 27, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Bullsh*t. Complete bullsh*t. Feats-wise, Tobirama is better, since Edo Tobirama had better combat speed and reflexes than BM Edo Minato. And hype proves nothing at all.
> 
> And they both have great portrayl.



Let the guy deal with 20 fodders first then we can talk. 
all the kages were shown to be much better. Except perhaps for Gaara's father.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Let the guy deal with 20 fodders first then we can talk.
> all the kages were shown to be much better. Except perhaps for Gaara's father.



Show me the details of that fight and than we can talk. Seriously. We dont know how he died and we dont know the details of his fights with Kin/Gin, yet you continue to bring that up. Keep wanking.

And lol, shown to be much better? Yeah, its because Tobirama taged Juubito and BM Minato couldnt tag Juubito.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 27, 2014)

We know he's around Darui's level, slightly inferior, and that's enough. 

- lol, it's sad how all what his fan can say "oh wow he tagged obito" :rofl
ok, he can tag people, you happy? And during that he get shat on. A miserable ability if you ask me.  

maybe he tagged Kin & Gin as well, and got his head cut off in the presses.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> We know he's around Darui's level, slightly inferior, and that's enough.
> 
> - lol, it's sad how all what his fan can say "oh wow he tagged obito" :rofl
> ok, he can tag people, you happy? And during that he get shat on. A miserable ability if you ask me.
> ...



Wrong. Because we dont know the details of Tobirama's fights with Gin/Kin and that shinobi team. 

BM got shat on, but the difference is - Tobirama was fast enough to do something, Minato wasnt fast enough to do anything. And he would have been destroyed if Tobirama didnt save him.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> you're saying that to make yourself feel better, and even you know that.



I know that i dont know anything about his fights with Kin/Gin and that shinobi team fight. Just like you. They could use some tricks/items that could counter Tobirama and Minato as well. Thats why its useless to bring that up as an arguement.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 27, 2014)

Why would Minato who soloed A & B, the strongest tag-team in Kumo, have a problem with fodders like Kin & Gin?


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Why would Minato who soloed A & B, the strongest tag-team in Kumo, have a problem with fodders like Kin & Gin?



I dont know. And thats the thing. We dont know how Kin/Gin beat him. And we dont know how he died.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 27, 2014)

Gin and kin had twenty elite ninja with them in their squad.. Every single one of these elite nin could have been in minatos tier so using tobirama dying to gin and gin plus their squad doesn't mean shit Hussain.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 27, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Gin and kin had twenty elite ninja with them in their squad.. Every single one of these elite nin could have been in minatos tier so using tobirama dying to gin and gin plus their squad doesn't mean shit Hussain.



Am Sorry, but thinking a village has 20 ninja on Minato's tiers is absolutly ridiculous.  
Even Konoha itself, the main village has NEVER had such thing in its entire history, and it is the
village that have always been referred as the strongest village.  

There is just no way. If we are going for those assumption, those 50, or 1000 thousand fodders Minato destroyed in the 3rd War, they may have all been Tobirama's tier as well, and yet they did not stand a chance. 

What is the likelihood that those 1000 did not have even 20 strong shinobi, but, those 20 shinobis are all good? 



> A handsome man shining with natural-borne talent, like a blinding glint (purple lightning), time and space itself seem to stand still—.
> Minato handles to perfection the “Hiraishin no jutsu” space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama, and learnt from Master Jiraiya the pride of being a ninja.
> His achievements began 27 years ago with the “Jinchuuriki kidnapping prevention” in Kirigakure; during the 3rd Great Ninja War, he led inferior Konoha camps to victory for times too numerous to mention.
> Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages.



I do not know how strong those Ninja were, but we do not know how strong those Ninja who faced Minato are either. Actually, better yet, we know they are at least able to do some things as huge as this

and they were destroying Konoha's ninja, until Minato came to the scan and defeated all of them in 1 second. Either way, Minato's case is better, he was able to end the war, unlike Tobirama who got killed.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 27, 2014)

Why is it ridiculous? Minato would be labeled as an elite ninja so therefore there's a very real chance they could have been in or close to his level. Because every single one of them was an elite.

The ninjas minato beat were not labeled as such and therefore is irrelevant. Also minato needed help to beat them he didn't do so by himself. He needed multiple ninjas to throe kunai for him.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 27, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Why is it ridiculous? Minato would be labeled as an elite ninja so therefore there's a very real chance they could have been in or close to his level. Because every single one of them was an elite.
> 
> The ninjas minato beat were not labeled as such and therefore is irrelevant. Also minato needed help to beat them he didn't do so by himself. He needed multiple ninjas to throe kunai for him.



lol, no he didn't. Minato just made use of those few for the heck of it, he didn't actually need them. Minato is a shadow clone user, he could have gotten them to throw all those kunai easily. And it would have been more effective since Minato knows exactly where he wants to throw them.

But why waste the time and chakra making clones, when you've already got capable ninja sitting right there doing nothing. Might as well make use of them.

Come on now, be serious. Minato doesn't need fodders to throw kunai for him.

@Hussain
First thing that comes to mind whenever I hear the word "elite" used in Naruto, is Anbu. Guys of Torune, Fu and even Yamato's level.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

> Even Konoha itself, the main village has NEVER had such thing in its entire history


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 27, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Gin and kin had twenty elite ninja with them in their squad.. Every single one of these elite nin *could have been in minatos tier* so using tobirama dying to gin and gin plus their squad doesn't mean shit Hussain.



You just lost all credibility by making this statement. Why would Gin/Kin, who are below Darui level have, have grunts who are 100x stronger than them


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 27, 2014)

if the kinkaku squad were all of darui level (lets just say 20 darui's), then sorry but Minato would wreck them all in the blink of an eye.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 27, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Thats not using his ftg defensively that's him going on the attack trying to land an attack in a battle of physical speed from the front head on learn reading comprehension..



He cannot react to them = he can't activate Hiraishin = he can't defend himself = he can't use Hiraishin defensively against them.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 27, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> You just lost all credibility by making this statement. Why would Gin/Kin, who are below Darui level have, have grunts who are 100x stronger than them



Well, you've got a point. Actually one would think that Kishimoto retconned Tobirama's power portrayal and feats, but then it's strange that he made Kin and Gin say that they trashed Tobirama. So I don't know. Because by feats Tobirama is at least on par with Minato. By hype Minato seems stronger.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 27, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Well, you've got a point. Actually one would think that Kishimoto retconned Tobirama's power portrayal and feats, but then it's strange that he made Kin and Gin say that they trashed Tobirama. So I don't know. *Because by feats Tobirama is at least on par with Minato*. By hype Minato seems stronger.



And this is were you (and others) go wrong...every...dang....time.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

You guys give me the details of Tobirama's fights with Kin/Gin and that shinobi squad. I realy want to know what happened there and why Tobirama lost because its such an incredible arguement i wanna know more about it, lol.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 27, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> You guys give me the details of Tobirama's fights with Kin/Gin and that shinobi squad. I realy want to know what happened there and why Tobirama lost because its such an incredible arguement i wanna know more about it, lol.



Basically this is what happened:

- There were 20 elite ninja of the kinkaku squad (does not include the brothers, only the 20 ninja were listed to be present).

- Tobirama (supposedly supposed to be the greatest ninja of the village), had a team consisting of a 25 year old Kagami Uchiha, 30 year old Torifu, Danzo, Koharu, Homura (all Jonin level), and a young Hokage level Hiruzen (must have been between age 25 and 30).

- Tobirama with all that back up, was scared to take on a team who were probably no stronger than Darui level at best. Tobirama didn't want to show his fear to his team members by running away, so he pretended there was no other way than to be a decoy.

- And the funniest part of all is that Tobirama has a marking on top of his Hokage face statue. So he had the ability to teleport his team back home. But of course he did not have the intelligence to do so, so of course he isn't that smart.

- Kinakaku nor Ginkaku feared Tobirama at all. Evidence by the fact that they attacked him twice, shows Tobirama was all talk.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Basically this is what happened:
> 
> - There were 20 elite ninja of the kinkaku squad (does not include the brothers, only the 20 ninja were listed to be present).
> 
> ...



Dont remember him puting marks on a statue.

And we dont know what exactly happened in his fights with Kin/Gin and those shinobi. Thats why its useless to bring that up here. Feats wise, Tobirama is still superior to Minato.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 27, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Basically this is what happened:
> 
> - There were 20 elite ninja of the kinkaku squad (does not include the brothers, only the 20 ninja were listed to be present).



And where does it say in the manga that they were not present? Oh wait upon being Edo Tensei the brothers remarked they killed Tobirama. Hence they must have been part of the squard



> Tobirama (supposedly supposed to be the greatest ninja of the village), had a team consisting of a 25 year old Kagami Uchiha, 30 year old Torifu, Danzo, Koharu, Homura (all Jonin level), and a young Hokage level Hiruzen (must have been between age 25 and 30).
> 
> - Tobirama with all that back up, was scared to take on a team who were probably no stronger than Darui level at best. Tobirama didn't want to show his fear to his team members by running away, so he pretended there was no other way than to be a decoy



Like many have stated we dont know the circumstances before or durring the event:

1) Tobirama had a group of insanly talented shinobi at his side but yet he knew they couldn't take the group tracking them. That says a shit ton about the groups power

or

2) What were they doing before the anbush. Like you stated Tobirama had a seal on top the hokage mountain. Could he have been low on chakra? Who knows




> - And the funniest part of all is that Tobirama has a marking on top of his Hokage face statue. So he had the ability to teleport his team back home. But of course he did not have the intelligence to do so, so of course he isn't that smart.



Tobirama is damn near the smartest shinobi shown in the series in almost every aspect from battle interlect to jutsu creation to history. Since you seem to know so much about the situation what happened prior or durring the event?



> - Kinakaku nor Ginkaku feared Tobirama at all. Evidence by the fact that they attacked him twice, shows Tobirama was all talk.



Yes one was durring an ambush lol(cowards)
Seconed was with an elite tracking force trained to kill high ranking shinobi(classic)


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 27, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> He cannot react to them = he can't activate Hiraishin = he can't defend himself = he can't use Hiraishin defensively against them.



when fully commited to landing an attack on the enemy in a battle of physical speed from the front he gets beat by the god tiers but using it defensively he can..it happened stop ignoring the manga...i explained everything about that feat that you claimed as inconsistencies such as kakashi and gaaras sand all thats left is minato himself this isnt some random scrub doing it this is the man lauded to be the fastest ever the yellow flash a monicker given for his speed and reactions unlike tobirama..he cant tango head to head but he can use his ftg defensively and supplemetarily as he teleported kakashi near madara and saved gai from the guodama...when he is not using physical speed in an attack its basically just a mental response..
Atsui
Atsui


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> when fully commited to landing an attack on the enemy in a battle of physical speed from the front he gets beat by the god tiers but using it defensively he can..it happened stop ignoring the manga...i explained everything about that feat that you claimed as inconsistencies such as kakashi and gaaras sand all thats left is minato himself this isnt some random scrub doing it this is the man lauded to be the fastest ever the yellow flash a monicker given for his speed and reactions unlike tobirama..



If he was fast enough, he could use his Hiraishin at the moment of Juubito's attack, or counter-attack him. The same with Juubidara. If he was fast enough, he could dodge his staff, or use Hiraishin, just like in his fight with Raikage, or counter-attack him.

But he couldnt. Why? The answer is obvious - *he is not fast enough*. It must be clear for those who read the manga. But you keep wanking. *Face it, man - facts are against your Minato wank. Face it, he wasnt fast enough. Its a fact. It has been shown clearly that he couldnt react to those tiers*. 

Oh by the way, why BM Minato couldnt dodge unstable Obito's kick? Comment that, please:

Atsui


----------



## Kait0 (Dec 27, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> If he was fast enough, he could use his Hiraishin at the moment of Juubito's attack, or counter-attack him. The same with Juubidara. If he was fast enough, he could dodge his staff, or use Hiraishin, just like in his fight with Raikage, or counter-attack him.


Isn't the first part him taking advantage of being an Edo Tensei, before the found out the Truth Seeking Orbs permanently damage the bond between the sacrificed body and the soul of the person that was reanimated?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 27, 2014)

Kait0 said:


> Isn't the first part him taking advantage of being an Edo Tensei, before the found out the Truth Seeking Orbs permanently damage the bond between the sacrificed body and the soul of the person that was reanimated?


Gudodama cause permanent damage to Edo Tensei since they cancel out any ninjutsu that comes in contact with them due to the Yin-Yang nature of them. Only Senjutsu works on Gudodama because of this.


----------



## Kait0 (Dec 27, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Gudodama cause permanent damage to Edo Tensei since they cancel out any ninjutsu that comes in contact with them due to the Yin-Yang nature of them. Only Senjutsu works on Gudodama because of this.


Yeah... Same shit.

Anyways, he didn't know that until he lost his arm, right?  Seems to me like an unknown factor.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 28, 2014)

Kait0 said:


> Isn't the first part him taking advantage of being an Edo Tensei, before the found out the Truth Seeking Orbs permanently damage the bond between the sacrificed body and the soul of the person that was reanimated?



Whats the sense for Minato to lose his arm and wait for its regeneration?


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 28, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> and yet it happened in canon defensively minato can ftg against god tiers...he cant go head to head against them in cqc ofcourse never said he could..theere was distance between the balls and gai he threw them between that lee threw them in gais path next time i throw a pebble in the path of a speeding buggati veyron ill be happy with the knowledge im as fast...



You don't it get yet, do you? Go try to throw a pebble in the path of two speeding buggati that are going to crash and are less tan 2 feet away from each other and tell me how that worked out.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 28, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> You don't it get yet, do you? Go try to throw a pebble in the path of two speeding buggati that are going to crash and are less tan 2 feet away from each other and tell me how that worked out.



They were more then 2 feet from each other.....he threw the kunai before gai was next to the guodama..and with timing its possible especially when im capable of blitzing edo madara with a kick without gates....


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 28, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> They were more then 2 feet from each other.....he threw the kunai before gai was next to the guodama..and with timing its possible especially when im capable of blitzing edo madara with a kick without gates....




The timing is possible if Rock Lee's arm speed is enough to blitz Hashirama throwing a Kunai to him.

The two feet away from each other was an exaggeration to point that they were too close. They were less than 5 meters away from each other.

The black balls going towards Gai at speeds that can pressure Obito, who was reacting fairly to a KCM Naruto with a slower Kamui, and Gai was going towards the black balls with Juubi Jin pressuring speed. When they were at less than 5 meters, Lee had enough speed to pinpoint, swing his arm, throw the Kunai, the Kunai traveled to that position _before_ Gai and the Black spheres crossed that less of 5 meters.

It's even impossible to assume that if only Gai was moving, let alone both. And if you say that Lee was like 15-20 meters from Gai and the black balls, then you can say that he had to outspeed Gai quite a lot, because like i said, Gai was not the only one shortenning the 5 meters between him and the balls.

Wich would be impossible when Gai in the 7th gate would not be able to accomplish even half of that speed.

Only Hussain would put Lee's arm speed to godlike if that means wanking Minato at all cost. Don't fall into that .


----------



## Trojan (Dec 28, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Only Hussain would put Lee's arm speed to godlike if that means wanking Minato at all cost. Don't fall into that .



Sure, even Kishi himself wouldn't dream of drawing such a silly thing. 
That panel never excited except in Minato's fans head. 

He did not even praise him for that Minato's delusional's fan-made feat. 




> ⇧He trains his taijutsu with determination everyday. This ability is demonstrated sufficiently even when he’s on the battlefield.


Obviously it was not meant to be taken seriously.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 28, 2014)

Do people think Lee entering the 6th gate just to throw a kunai has no meaning? It's obvious that with the enhanced strength, he gained the power to throw that kunai to intercept Guy and such great speed.



LostSelf said:


> You don't it get yet, do you? Go try to throw a pebble in the path of two speeding buggati that are going to crash and are less tan 2 feet away from each other and tell me how that worked out.



What's the point of you telling someone to go and attempt something when you don't factor in all the variables. In real life you don't have the 6th gate that you can open to increase your strength. If he had that, then I'm sure he could throw the pebble at godly speed if he wanted to.

I lol at people who try to compare a mangaa situation to real life, when that whole scene involved teleportation, magical power ups and all that stuff illogical stuff.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 28, 2014)

Don't be silly. Kishi clearly had him using the gates only for show, and so Minato can know that Lee also uses the gates.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 28, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Don't be silly. Kishi clearly had him using the gates only for show, and so Minato can know that Lee also uses the gates.



Lol, there's even an entire subtext in his databook profile dedicated to that kunai throwing scene. Talking about his proficiency in Taijutsu. Why would they pick a scene where all he's doing is throwing kunai, unless it was an incredibly difficult and skilled feat


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 28, 2014)

Hussain said:


> It's funny how people try their hardest to downplay his feats no matter what.



No one is downplaying his feats here. You are the one who downplays Tobirama. You bring that Kin/Gin shinobi stuff, although nobody knows the details of those fights. You bring that fanfic about "Mindless Juubito". And so on.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 28, 2014)

Here they know the details, and they still use pitiful excuses to why that feat is actually only imaginary, and does not really exist. And I am not downplaying him. It's Kishi who made him lose to them, and obito was mindless, he did not even know his name.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 28, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Sure, even Kishi himself wouldn't dream of drawing such a silly thing.
> That panel never excited except in Minato's fans head.
> 
> He did not even praise him for that Minato's delusional's fan-made feat.
> ...



In my dictionary, training hard everyday means training hard everyday. Not that he is beyond Gai's strongest mode at that point.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Do people think Lee entering the 6th gate just to throw a kunai has no meaning? It's obvious that with the enhanced strength, he gained the power to throw that kunai to intercept Guy and such great speed.



So you say that Rock Lee can throw a Kunai faster than Gai in the eight gate can move? Are you ready to say that Rock Lee can speedblitz Juudara throwing a Kunai? Because that's what you are implying.



> What's the point of you telling someone to go and attempt something when you don't factor in all the variables. In real life you don't have the 6th gate that you can open to increase your strength. If he had that, then I'm sure he could throw the pebble at godly speed if he wanted to.



Ask him. He said he could throw a peeble in the way of a race car. Now ask yourself if you believe that Lee can, from a long distance, throw a Kunai in the middle of two incredibly fast beigns that are almost colliding without one of them slowing down..

If your answer is yes, then that means you believe Lee can throw things at she speed of Eight gated Gai or even beyond.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 28, 2014)

What does "stronger" have to do with anything? As far as I know, no one claimed that Lee is stronger than Gai. 
the thing is that feat was used specifically to show Lee's mastery over Taijutsu and how effective it is.  

Had Kishi followed your believes, then he wouldn't have taken that and highlight it to show Lee's abilities.


----------



## Kait0 (Dec 28, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Whats the sense for Minato to lose his arm and wait for its regeneration?


Take advantage of being able to regenerate at all to get a better idea of what he's fighting against.


----------



## Kai (Dec 28, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Only Hussain would put Lee's *arm speed to godlike* if that means *wanking* Minato at all cost.


:ignoramus


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 28, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> In my dictionary, training hard everyday means training hard everyday. Not that he is beyond Gai's strongest mode at that point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure what you are trying to argue. The manga shows us the following:

1. Lee opens the 6th gate in order to throw kuani in order to gain the necessary speed and strength to do so. Lee did not throw the kunai fraster than Guy, Lee only intercepted Guy with great timing (even Minato said so). If Lee in 6th gate and Guy in 8th gate stood side by side and lee raced his kunai throwing vs Guys running speed, then of course Lee would lose. But that's not what happened. What happened is Lee anticipated Guys final attack and threw the kunai ahead of time, in order to make the kunai reach infront of him before Guy was able to blitz past it. It makes more than enough sense to be honest. Its your own damn fault if you think it's logically impossible. THIS IS MANGA LOGIC, NOT REAL LIFE, SO STOP COMPARING THE TWO.

2, The 5th step of Evening Elephant is the fastest stage of the attack. WIth each "foot", the gear is increased and the speed of the attack increases. So that was Guy's fastest attack (only attack that's faster attack is Night Guy). Lee even said it, the speed increases. The databook says it as well.

3. Minato told Guy specifically not to slow down. He said just keep going no matter what. So the attack speed was not reduced. If anything it was increased. 

4. Guy was moving incredibly fast, to the point that Madara could only shield himself with the black orbs, because he wasn't fast enough to get out of the way.

5. Lee intercepted the technique with "good timing", and Minato teleported in and reacted accordingly, before Guy could barely move a muscle. He came in, took Madaras $hit, and then teleported out. Keep in my he had to twist his body mid-teleport and let the balls ever so slightly graze against his body (so that it would not destroy him), before teleporting out again. All reaction right here.

There's no denying Guys speed here, because the databook and manga itself tell us exactly how fast Guy was moving.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 28, 2014)

Kait0 said:


> Take advantage of being able to regenerate at all to get a better idea of what he's fighting against.



Its stupid to put your arm on purpose to it being cut off in order to know what *Juubi Jinchuuriki* can do. *Because Juubi Jinchuuriki has all nine tailed beasts chakra and who knows what he can do*. Its very, very stupid. 

Thats why he lost his arm because he couldnt react. And realy, where is a proof he was relaxed because he is an Edo?


----------



## Kait0 (Dec 28, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Its stupid to put your arm on purpose to it being cut off in order to know what *Juubi Jinchuuriki* can do. *Because Juubi Jinchuuriki has all nine tailed beasts chakra and who knows what he can do*. Its very, very stupid.
> 
> Thats why he lost his arm because he couldnt react. And realy, where is a proof he was relaxed because he is an Edo?


He never stated it, but he ended up losing his arm just as Obito transformed and gained the Gudodama.  My mistake.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 28, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Here they know the details, and they still use pitiful excuses to why that feat is actually only imaginary, and does not really exist. And I am not downplaying him. It's Kishi who made him lose to them, and obito was mindless, he did not even know his name.



Yes, its Kishi who made him lose to them, but how he lost to them? How? Because of what? We dont know the details about those fights at all.

And Obito didnt know his name...


----------



## Trojan (Dec 28, 2014)

Because he is weaker than them, that's how. 

Tobirama can turn his sensing off and on Hussain. He had no reason to keep it active during a diplomatic summit.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 28, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> lol, no he didn't. Minato just made use of those few for the heck of it, he didn't actually need them. Minato is a shadow clone user, he could have gotten them to throw all those kunai easily. And it would have been more effective since Minato knows exactly where he wants to throw them.
> 
> But why waste the time and chakra making clones, when you've already got capable ninja sitting right there doing nothing. Might as well make use of them.
> 
> ...



Minatos only shown to make clones in bm and that was one at a time iirc. There's no way in base hed be able to make enough clones to replicate the ninjas he did use. Unless you can prove as such.




Elite Uchiha said:


> You just lost all credibility by making this statement. Why would Gin/Kin, who are below Darui level have, have grunts who are 100x stronger than them



Kay your rep is black so lol at u telling my cred is lost..

And good thing minato isn't 100x darui/ gin and kind  level since ei thought he was needed to take them(gin n kin) on directly.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 28, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Not sure what you are trying to argue. The manga shows us the following:



It's too simple it's hard to believe that you can't see it. It has to do with Lee's position, Gai and Black Orbs's speed and their position.

There's no way Lee could've intercepted Gai from his position without outspeeding him. Look at the panels and you'll see what i am telling you in this post.



> 1. Lee opens the 6th gate in order to throw kuani in order to gain the necessary speed and strength to do so. Lee did not throw the kunai fraster than Guy, Lee only intercepted Guy with great timing (even Minato said so). If Lee in 6th gate and Guy in 8th gate stood side by side and lee raced his kunai throwing vs Guys running speed, then of course Lee would lose. But that's not what happened. What happened is Lee anticipated Guys final attack and threw the kunai ahead of time, in order to make the kunai reach infront of him before Guy was able to blitz past it. It makes more than enough sense to be honest. Its your own damn fault if you think it's logically impossible. THIS IS MANGA LOGIC, NOT REAL LIFE, SO STOP COMPARING THE TWO.



_*Key point*_ Except that Lee's timing was amazingly enough to throw the kunai when Gai was incredibly close to the black balls. SO yeah, he had to outspeed Gai. It doesn't need to be "logically" imposible in real life. It's impossible in the NV, _unless_ we think that Lee can throw it faster. But you can go in circles and keep saying that he intercepted Gai ignoring when and how he did,



> 2, The 5th step of Evening Elephant is the fastest stage of the attack. WIth each "foot", the gear is increased and the speed of the attack increases. So that was Guy's fastest attack (only attack that's faster attack is Night Guy). Lee even said it, the speed increases. The databook says it as well.



Then you are saying that Gai and the black balls were about to crash, they were at kind off 5 meters from each other while Lee was like 20 meters from his point and between Gai and the black balls, yet, Lee managed to, from a longer distance than Gai, throw a kunai in the middle of him and the black balls before Gai advanced,

So yes, unless you want to deliberately ignore their positions and moment of actions, then you are saying that Lee outspeeded Gai.



> 3. Minato told Guy specifically not to slow down. He said just keep going no matter what. So the attack speed was not reduced. If anything it was increased.



Minato said "just hit him". It didn't increase nothing as Gai _only_ punched when he was right behind Madara. So no increased speed or anything of the sort.



> 4. Guy was moving incredibly fast, to the point that Madara could only shield himself with the black orbs, because he wasn't fast enough to get out of the way.


Yes, Gai was moving incredibly fast before Madara shielded himself with the black orbs. Refer to Lee, Gai and the black orb's positions when Lee threw the kunai before repeating, again.



> 5. Lee intercepted the technique with "good timing", and Minato teleported in and reacted accordingly, before Guy could barely move a muscle. He came in, took Madaras $hit, and then teleported out. Keep in my he had to twist his body mid-teleport and let the balls ever so slightly graze against his body (so that it would not destroy him), before teleporting out again. All reaction right here.



Please, refer to *Key point* and see why what you are saying is wrong unless you believe that Lee can throw faster. Wich says why he threw the Kunai faster.



> There's no denying Guys speed here, because the databook and manga itself tell us exactly how fast Guy was moving.



No, this part never tolds us how fast he was moving.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 28, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Minatos only shown to make clones in bm and that was one at a time iirc. There's no way in base hed be able to make enough clones to replicate the ninjas he did use. Unless you can prove as such.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



-snip-

So you're trying to tell me base minato cannot make four shadow clones. -snip- So what if he was in BM, the fact that he knows the jutsu means he's used it before when he was alive. Hiruzen in his old age with only a tiny bit of chakra left against orochimaru, made 2 clones.

Yet you think a 24 year old minato cannot? Minato the toad sage? Despite the manga stating that only those with "Enormous Chakra" can handle senjutsu. Minato has huge reserves, even fodder can make shadow clones. Part 1 Kakashi who was completely out of stamina, used the multiple shadow clone jutsu technique and made dozens of clones. This is the same Kaakshi with low stamina.

Even Mahiru. The rock ninja that minato fodderized in Kakashi Gaiden, that fodder made 19 shadow clones. Which 13 year old Kakashi wiped out easily. Yet you think a HOKAGE tier ninja can't make simple 4 clones.

-snip-


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 28, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Kay your rep is black so lol at u telling my cred is lost..



I've had my rep disabled for years, but you should get a fair representation of my rep power from my neg. It looks like I brought you down from "paragon of hope" :rofl


----------



## SSMG (Dec 28, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> WTF DID I JUST READ?!
> 
> Minato can't make more clones in base... Are you crazy???
> 
> ...




What I think is irrelevant to what your assertation and the lack of feats to represent it. Prove he can create that many clones. And also to be able use that many clones while spamming ftg.


----------



## Sablés (Dec 29, 2014)

Minato is clearly faster however Tobirama has superior reflexive and intelligence feat, that'll give the latter the win here. Edo Tensei also trumps any of Minato's Jutsu.

Depending on circumstance: Tobirama+Edo Tensei > BM Minato > Tobirama >= Base Minato.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 29, 2014)

> =Liquid;52565122]Minato is clearly faster however Tobirama has superior reflexive and intelligence feat, that'll give the latter the win here.


What are those superior feats? 



> Edo Tensei also trumps any of Minato's Jutsu.



No, Minato's seals shit on all of Tobirama's ET. His contract seal is more enough actually. 



> Depending on circumstance: Tobirama+Edo Tensei > BM Minato


lol, you can't be serious.  




> Tobirama >= Base Minato.


No he is not. They are not even in the same tier.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Because he is weaker than them, that's how.
> 
> Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.



At *THAT* moment, Obito truly lost the control. But at the moment of Tobirama's confrontation, he controled Juubi. 

And i hope you wont bring Minato's *assumption* again as a proof that Obito wasnt as fast as later.

And, again, maybe they used something that could counter Minato as well. We dont know how exactly they beat him.



> No he is not. They are not even in the same tier.



LOL what? *Tobirama proved himself to have better reflexes and combat speed than BM Minato. Because he put a FTG formula on him, while BM Minato did nothing, was speedblitzed, lost his arm and would have been crushed if Tobirama didnt save him*. Its a *MANGA FACT*.

But you will bring that fanfic about Obito's "Mindless" slower state based *ONLY* on Minato's *assumption* and the fact he didnt use Yin/Yan release to kill Edo's at that moment, which has nothing to do with his *speed/reflexes* etc.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 29, 2014)

^
whatever makes you happy. I am tired now.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> whatever makes you happy. I am tired now.



I hope you'll get tired of making spite threads. This forum is cool and doesnt deserve to be junked with spite threads of any kind.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> It's too simple it's hard to believe that you can't see it. It has to do with Lee's position, Gai and Black Orbs's speed and their position.
> 
> There's no way Lee could've intercepted Gai from his position without outspeeding him. Look at the panels and you'll see what i am telling you in this post.
> 
> ...



First of all thats not five meters....lee threw the kunai in the earlier panel before gai was even further away then...

here we have a panel of gated lee intercepting the guodama to save gai from point blank....
Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.
Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.

ur trying desperately to imply the feat was illogical but i have provided all the reasons why it wasnt...lee intercepted the guodama with the kunai with gated strength mentioned in the databook with emphasis as he did before...minato teleported kakashi to near madara...and he then intercepted the guodama because he had to only use ftg defensively aka mental stimulus..


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 29, 2014)

SSMG said:


> What I think is irrelevant to what your assertation and the lack of feats to represent it. Prove he can create that many clones. And also to be able use that many clones while spamming ftg.



Prove he can make 4 clones? You have serious problems. Creating shadow clones isn't even a super difficult technique. If one has the chakra then they can make dozens of clones if they want.

Multi shadow clone jutsu (1st databook):
- A technique developed from the "Shadow Clone," a ninjutsu that creates clones with actual substance. Countless Shadow Clones... *The exact number depends on the amount of chakra used*
- no ninja below *Hokage*, save for a limited few, can use this technique without risking their life

I've already given examples of ninja with low chakra who managed more than 1 clone. Kakashi who had just finished his battle with Zabuza and was even saying he has no stamina left, managed to make at least 30 clones. Hiruzen against orochimaru, orochimaru was taunting Hiruzen for not making any clones. The anbu immediately responses by saying it's not that he doesn't want to, it's that he can't because he no longer has the stamina in his old age. Yet that didn't stop a completely exhausted Hiruzen from making 2 clones. Then Konohamaru against pain, the 12 year old made 2 shadow clones. He fooled pain with 1 and then used another clone to make his rasenagn.

What you're trying to say is that minato is no more than Kibas level and can only manage 1 shadow clone . The databook labels this a Hokage level technique, yet you think Minato can't replicate something that even an old man can do, that even a kid can do. Despite the just being levelled Hokage level...tell me what rank is minato again?

It depends on how much chakra the user puts into the jutsu. If he wants to make 100 clones then he can. Nothing is stopping minato. The only problem is the drawback afterwards from using the jutsu, if you don't have the chakra capacity to do so, then it becomes an extremely dangerous technique. However minatos own student pulled it off with almost no chakra, I fail to see minato who has enormous chakra reserves having any issue making as many clones as he wants.

It's an insult that you think he's no better than Kiba. And I question your manga knowledge, do you even know anything? Becuase I'm pretty sure everyone knows that anyone with the chakra reserves can makes dozens of shadow clones at will.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 29, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> First of all thats not five meters....lee threw the kunai in the earlier panel before gai was even further away then...



No, check the panels again. Gai was less than 5 meters away from the black balls. Lee is shown throwing the Kunai _after_ Gai was shown going to be hit by the black spheres.



> here we have a panel of gated lee intercepting the guodama to save gai from point blank....
> Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.
> Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.



Yeah, Gai managed to do the same in lower gates than Lee.



> ur trying desperately ti imply the feat was illogical but i have provided all the reasons why it wasnt...lee intercepted the guodama with the kunai with gated strength mentioned in the databook with emphasis as he did before...minato teleported kakashi to near madara...and he then intercepted the guodama because he had to only use ftg defensively aka mental stimulus..



Who is saying it's ilogical? I am saying that this happened because Gai was not going at full speed. Because otherwise Lee would've never been able to place a Kunai there for the reasons i have been telling you here (Wich are quite simple to see) because if Gai was going full speed, Lee would've had to outspeed him considering that Lee was in a longer distance than Gai when he threw the Kunai to the same spot Gai was going.

Seriously, i don't see it that hard to understand


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2014)

SSMG said:


> What I think is irrelevant to what your assertation and the lack of feats to represent it. Prove he can create that many clones. And also to be able use that many clones while spamming ftg.



So ur saying because kakashi can knock out anbu with his base sharingan genjutsu but itachi cant.....sometimes one should use his intelligence and commonsense in certain situations not everything needs to be spelled out for u..


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> No, check the panels again. Gai was less than 5 meters away from the black balls. Lee is shown throwing the Kunai _after_ Gai was shown going to be hit by the black spheres.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



.check the panel again the perspective might be confusing you gai is quite a bit more then 5 meters there..and lee threw the kunai in the earlier panel meaning when gai was even further..it was preempted lee knew gai would rush at him..Minato specifically shouted at gai to keep going at top speed no matter what..the whole plan depended on it...he needed to go at full speed and land his punch to cause maximum damage..it was the final step of his elephant technique the fatsest..


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 29, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> .check the panel again the perspective might be confusing you gai is quite a bit more then 5 meters there..and lee threw the kunai in the earlier panel meaning when gai was even further..it was preempted lee knew gai would rush at him..Minato specifically shouted at gai to keep going at top speed no matter what..the whole plan depended on it...he needed to go at full speed and land his punch to cause maximum damage..it was the final step of his elephant technique the fatsest..



Just as a question. As we know that Madara couldn't react to all other steps of Gai's Sekizo, as he was blitzed and hit anytime. The last step is the fastest: so how come Madara could suddenly react to Gai and defend and attack him? Hmm. Something tells me that he slowed himself to allow his companions to support him.

Btw, Lee solos Nagato by throwing at him a kunai that travels faster that 8th Gate Gai's speed...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Minatos only shown to make clones in bm and that was one at a time iirc. There's no way in base hed be able to make enough clones to replicate the ninjas he did use. Unless you can prove as such.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Except it was directly stated that the barrier decreased the amount of clones the Kages could create.

 If Tobirama, the person who created the jutsu could only create 2 clones during the barrier, then obviously without the barrier, Tobirama would be able to create far more clones considering he actually created the jutsu. Using that logic, BM Minato should be able to create a lot more clones. Considering Kakashi can make a few clones and even a Raiton clone that uses quite a bit of chakra, Base Minato should have no problem making shadow clones. 

 Nice try doe.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Just as a question. As we know that Madara couldn't react to all other steps of Gai's Sekizo, as he was blitzed and hit anytime. The last step is the fastest: so how come Madara could suddenly react to Gai and defend and attack him? Hmm. Something tells me that he slowed himself to allow his companions to support him.
> 
> Btw, Lee solos Nagato by throwing at him a kunai that travels faster that 8th Gate Gai's speed...



Yeah he kinda did

madara blocked here...but didnt form the guodama shield because he did not know gais capabilities ....later he formed the shield as gai was rushing at him from distance and because gai did not use the ranged attack that is sekizo...that kunai is not faster then 8th gate gai get it through ur head...it was preempted before gai rushed at madara and thrown to intercept them....even though i am much slower then freaking Bugatti veyrons with timing i can throw a rock between them from the side


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 29, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Just as a question. As we know that Madara couldn't react to all other steps of Gai's Sekizo, as he was blitzed and hit anytime. The last step is the fastest: so how come Madara could suddenly react to Gai and defend and attack him? Hmm. Something tells me that he slowed himself to allow his companions to support him.
> 
> Btw, Lee solos Nagato by throwing at him a kunai that travels faster that 8th Gate Gai's speed...



You get used to the speed.

Remember Naruto vs Ay. Naruto could not once get past v1 ay. Every single time Ay was able to block and stop Naruto. 

Yet when Ay went v2 (his fastest speed), Naruto was able to dodge it.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 30, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Prove he can make 4 clones? You have serious problems. Creating shadow clones isn't even a super difficult technique. If one has the chakra then they can make dozens of clones if they want.
> 
> Multi shadow clone jutsu (1st databook):
> - A technique developed from the "Shadow Clone," a ninjutsu that creates clones with actual substance. Countless Shadow Clones... *The exact number depends on the amount of chakra used*
> ...



That's thing .. Minato doesn't have that chakra.
For your examples non of them were minato so they are irrelevant. I'm asking for proof of your claim that minato van make many clones not other ninjas.

 Also I think your getting that part confused from the data books. It's not like everyone can make 100 shadows clones at each at 1% of their chakra. It's if they can split up their chakra that many times in order to create that amount of shadow clones. But this is all meaningless anyways because the only feats we have of minato using shadows clones is as an Edo who'd have limitless regenation of his chakra
. yet still never made the amount of clones you claimed he could while alive. 
What I'm saying though is prove your assertions. Nothing more nothing less.
And you can question my knowledge all you want but that doesn't make your lack of proof legitimate in any way.

@sabre we know itachi can do that since he put kakashi into a coma with his genjutsu...


----------



## Bonly (Dec 30, 2014)

SSMG said:


> That's thing .. Minato doesn't have that chakra.



To be fair Pa said that one needs an enormous amounts of chakra to draw in Natural Energy so it's isn't much of a stretch to say Minato can make quite a few clones.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 30, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> You get used to the speed.
> 
> Remember Naruto vs Ay. Naruto could not once get past v1 ay. Every single time Ay was able to block and stop Naruto.
> 
> Yet when Ay went v2 (his fastest speed), Naruto was able to dodge it.



Well, Naruto most likely outran his fastest punch. If Naruto came at him head on, Ei would have stopped him again. But Naruto was running in sercles.

Minato doesnt have such a running speed, but he has his Hiraishin. He was able to dodge Ei *ONLY* due to his Hiraishin. Thats the *sole* reason why he dodged it.

In this fight, the only thing Minato has that is faster is Shunshin. But his own speed, own reflexes are inferior to those of Tobirama because of Tobirama's feats. Edo Tobirama had better combat speed and reflexes than Edo *BM* Minato and they both were ressurrected in the same conditions. That means, Tobirama is faster and has better reflexes than base Minato. Its logical, isnt it?

Tobirama has Suiton, beteter combat speed and reflexes, is an excellent sensor, and knows a lot about Hiraishim since he created it. 

Thats why Tobirama is above Minato.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 30, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Well, Naruto most likely outran his fastest punch. If Naruto came at him head on, Ei would have stopped him again. But Naruto was running in sercles.
> 
> Minato doesnt have such a running speed, but he has his Hiraishin. He was able to dodge Ei *ONLY* due to his Hiraishin. Thats the *sole* reason why he dodged it.
> 
> ...



Minato physically reacted to fullspeed Ei. Before he jumped, he turned and threw a hiraishin kunai behind Ei's back, so he could get behind him. 

As for the kage bunshin argument. Making too many kills you. That's why it's a forbidden jutsu. Very few people can make Naruto amount of clones.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 30, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Minato physically reacted to fullspeed Ei. Before he jumped, he turned and threw a hiraishin kunai behind Ei's back, so he could get behind him.
> 
> As for the kage bunshin argument. Making too many kills you. That's why it's a forbidden jutsu. Very few people can make Naruto amount of clones.



That's not the argument. -SNIP-  minato cannot make more than 1 shadow clone because he doesn't have the feats. Yet konoha,are has even displayed such ability, yet apparently Minato can't.

Only fodder will die from using too many clones. Kakashi did it with no chakra left... Did he die? No. Kakashi has already stated himself that he has small chakra, yet he's a skilled ninja and is capable of utilising the multi shadow clone jutsu. Databook says only Hokage level ninja and a select few can use the technique. Is minato not Hokage? Does he not have the chakra capacity? Yes he does, his chakra is enormous.

I'm not saying minato can make 1000, I'm saying he can make the same and more than the amount that the fodder Mahiru was capable of doing (20).


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 30, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> .check the panel again the perspective might be confusing you gai is quite a bit more then 5 meters there..and lee threw the kunai in the earlier panel meaning when gai was even further..it was preempted lee knew gai would rush at him..Minato specifically shouted at gai to keep going at top speed no matter what..the whole plan depended on it...he needed to go at full speed and land his punch to cause maximum damage..it was the final step of his elephant technique the fatsest..



Actually:

one needs an enormous amounts of chakra

The panel before Lee's is not a matter of perspective if you conisder Gai's size with the size of Madara surrounded by the cloack. Otherwise, Gai would look pretty small as well as the black balls compared to Madara's. Therefore he should've been quite close.

Lee didn't preempted it. Lee threw the Kunai once Gai was in the panel before him (Before Lee throwing the Kunai). If Kishimoto wanted Lee to know when Gai was going to move, he would've drawn Lee throwing the Kunai panels before showing Gai being almost clashing with the balls.

And Minato didn't say to move a top speed. Minato said "Just hit him, Gai!!".

And like you said, one can throw something in the way of a speed buggati. But let's assume this:

-There's a red line where the speed buggati is going.
-The speed Buggati is, let's say, 10 meters away from that line.
-You are 20 meters away from that line. Not behind the car, a confortable position, but still 20 meters away from the line.

Do you think you can throw a rock in the way of the car, in the red line, before the car cross the line?


----------



## SSMG (Dec 30, 2014)

Bonly said:


> To be fair Pa said that one needs an enormous amounts of chakra to draw in Natural Energy so it's isn't much of a stretch to say Minato can make quite a few clones.



No yeah I agree buts its not just creating a few clones that this is about.. Its also the fact that he spammed ftg an uncountable amount of times for the feat they're claimingvhe can do with clones. Because both ftg and clones are heavy chakra taxing techniques.




RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> That's not the argument. The argue net is that the buffoon thinks minato cannot make more than 1 shadow clone because he doesn't have the feats. Yet konoha,are has even displayed such ability, yet apparently Minato can't.
> 
> Only fodder will die from using too many clones. Kakashi did it with no chakra left... Did he die? No. Kakashi has already stated himself that he has small chakra, yet he's a skilled ninja and is capable of utilising the multi shadow clone jutsu. Databook says only Hokage level ninja and a select few can use the technique. Is minato not Hokage? Does he not have the chakra capacity? Yes he does, his chakra is enormous.
> 
> I'm not saying minato can make 1000, I'm saying he can make the same and more than the amount that the fodder Mahiru was capable of doing (20).




This is all fine and dandy but can you prove he can? And can you prove he can do so while spamming ftg?


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 30, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Minato physically reacted to fullspeed Ei. Before he jumped, he turned and threw a hiraishin kunai behind Ei's back, so he could get behind him.
> 
> As for the kage bunshin argument. Making too many kills you. That's why it's a forbidden jutsu. Very few people can make Naruto amount of clones.



Oh, sorry, forgot about that.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 30, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> That's not the argument. The argue net is that the buffoon thinks minato cannot make more than 1 shadow clone because he doesn't have the feats. Yet konoha,are has even displayed such ability, yet apparently Minato can't.
> 
> Only fodder will die from using too many clones. Kakashi did it with no chakra left... Did he die? No. Kakashi has already stated himself that he has small chakra, yet he's a skilled ninja and is capable of utilising the multi shadow clone jutsu. Databook says only Hokage level ninja and a select few can use the technique. Is minato not Hokage? Does he not have the chakra capacity? Yes he does, his chakra is enormous.
> 
> I'm not saying minato can make 1000, I'm saying he can make the same and more than the amount that the fodder Mahiru was capable of doing (20).



And what a fodder can do means nothing. There's fodder with bloodline limits. We can't give someone else those feats because "they aren't fodder". Kakashi didn't use a true multi kage bunshin. Right before he did it he made the comment,"It might fool them," and the next page you see "Kage Bunshin jutsu, Kakashi version." So it wasn't a real kage bunshin IMO. 

Do I believe Minato can use more than 1 Kage bunshin? Yep. But 3-4 is pushing it. Tobirama had problems making 2-3 in edo tensei form and he created the jutsu.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 31, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And what a fodder can do means nothing. There's fodder with bloodline limits. We can't give someone else those feats because "they aren't fodder". Kakashi didn't use a true multi kage bunshin. Right before he did it he made the comment,"It might fool them," and the next page you see "Kage Bunshin jutsu, Kakashi version." So it wasn't a real kage bunshin IMO.
> 
> Do I believe Minato can use more than 1 Kage bunshin? Yep. But 3-4 is pushing it. Tobirama had problems making 2-3 in edo tensei form and he created the jutsu.



-snip-

Kakashi did use multiple shadow clones. It was called Kakashi version because it was to emphasise that Kakashi could also do it. The technique was Narutos signature jutsu and seeing Kakashi do it to was unusual and out of character, and Kakashi showed it for the first time so it was labeled Kakashi version. Besides, databook >>> than your opinion. In the first databook, the multiple shadow clone jutsu entry lists both Naruto and Kakashi as users. So you're wrong, he can and did use the technique.

Again, go back and read the manga. Tobirama could only manage two clones while making the barrier, both Tobirama and Hashirama made it clear that while maintaining the barrier, they could only make a limited number of clones. How can the created not be able to make multiple shadow clones? How retarded.

So 20 fodder can make 19 clones while Hokage tier making 3-4 is pushing it. Get that BS outta here. It states in plain black and white that the multiple shadow clone jutsu can only be performed by Hokage tier and a selected few. So you trying to argue against it is pointless when it is fact. Unless minato is not Hokage tier, then you have no argument.

Not to mention that he jutsu isn't dependant on skill, it's dependant on chakra. If you know the shadow clone jutsu, then you know the multiple version. It depends entirely on how much chakra the user puts into  the technique. So anyone can do it, but the drawbacks vary between each person, depending on their chakra. Someone like minato who has large chakra can easily make 20 clones and much more. If Naruto can make 100 (who has 4 times as much chakra than Kakashi), then Kaakshi can make 20 (at the very minimum). If minato has twice less chakra than Naruto, then he can perform 50 no problem. 

This isn't even a complex thing, it depends on chakra. -snip-


----------



## Veracity (Dec 31, 2014)

Part One Naruto: It might fool them

The thought that a sage and full blood Senju can't make more then 3 clones is laughable.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 2, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> And what a fodder can do means nothing. There's fodder with bloodline limits. We can't give someone else those feats because "they aren't fodder". Kakashi didn't use a true multi kage bunshin. Right before he did it he made the comment,"It might fool them," and the next page you see "Kage Bunshin jutsu, Kakashi version." So it wasn't a real kage bunshin IMO.
> 
> Do I believe Minato can use more than 1 Kage bunshin? Yep. But 3-4 is pushing it. Tobirama had problems making 2-3 in edo tensei form and he created the jutsu.



tobirama made 2 becuase he was maintaining the barrier making 3 clones is not pushing it for a ninja of minatos level known to have large reserves just by summoning gamabunta and learning sage mode known requirements are having enormous reserves...kakashi was able to make a clones and kept fighting the whole day in the war...raikiri is more taxing on kakashi then clones and he was able to use it multiple times in the same day..and kakashi is known for low stamina..minato was not


----------



## Trojan (Jan 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Part One Naruto: It might fool them
> 
> The thought that a sage and full blood Senju can't make more then 3 clones is laughable.



Minato left the seal open a little so Naruto's chakra will mix with Kurama's chakra. In that chapter it's been 12 years. 

******


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Actually:
> 
> It might fool them
> 
> ...



Minato shouted gai hit him no matter what!! does that imply slow down guy!! no the opposite they did not relay the plan to guy all gai knew was minatos shout to keep going no matter what and thus he had no reason to slow down...if gai had to slow down there it would be redundant because then gai could simply dodge from that range as he could kick the air to change direction and minato could still teleport kakashi near madara and kamui the shield leaving gai the space to attack..


----------



## SSMG (Jan 5, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Part One Naruto: outshone Kakashi at 26.
> 
> The thought that a sage and full blood Senju can't make more then 3 clones is laughable.



Minato is not naruto. If naruto was the character in question there'd be no debate.

Also minato is not a full blooded senju.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 7, 2015)

4WestSide said:


> Minato wins with KCM



Read OP. Minato is alive.


----------



## Legend777 (Jan 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Meaning that Juubito already prepared himself for attacks to his back..



No different from attacking him head on which is why I am comparing the two situations .

If the Tobirama's feat of tagging mindless Juubito is legit .he would have no trouble just dodging him.



StarWanderer said:


> And Tobirama, as i remember, knew already about his edo killing Yin-Yan release. And he remembered how Juubito destroyed half of his body before.
> .



His body was destroyed when he was in the process of physically tagging him (As you are implying by bring up the whole tagging feat ). Here he has to do no such thing.



StarWanderer said:


> Also, even unstable Juubito easily kicked BM Minato..







StarWanderer said:


> BM Minato saw him being in full control again, but he still attacked, although he could just FTG away and think about a strategy against him..



Yeah unfortunately Minato had a brain fart and started attacking Juubi jins head on when he could just as well have teleported behind them .






StarWanderer said:


> And do not forget it was BM Minato. His speed and reflexes are drastically amped by Kurama's chakra.



And yet its laughable that you guys keep comparing the two ..state that Tobirama's feat is superior and say that Tobirama has superior reflexes compared to Base Minato . When it should be obvious that if Tobirama's feat was superior he should have reflexes superior to BM Minato's.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 17, 2015)

> No different from attacking him head on which is why I am comparing the two situations .
> 
> If the Tobirama's feat of tagging mindless Juubito is legit .he would have no trouble just dodging him.



It is legit, but Tobirama lost more than half of his body. He didnt want to risk there. And Edo regeneration is long when half of more of Edo Body is destroyed. Who knows, maybe team would need his help at the time when he is regenerating himself.



> His body was destroyed when he was in the process of physically tagging him (As you are implying by bring up the whole tagging feat ). Here he has to do no such thing.



Because his bombs wot work. Plus, he doesnt have Senjutsu. And whats the point of puting a formula on him second time? 

I can bring here a scan if you want. Unstable Juubito kicked both Minato and Naruto with no problem.



> Yeah unfortunately Minato had a brain fart and started attacking Juubi jins head on when he could just as well have teleported behind them .



Teleported behind them? Did he have FTG mark there? 

And in that confrontation, Juubito has shown how fast he is compare to KCM Minato.



> And yet its laughable that you guys keep comparing the two ..state that Tobirama's feat is superior and say that Tobirama has superior reflexes compared to Base Minato . When it should be obvious that if Tobirama's feat was superior he should have reflexes superior to BM Minato's.



It was KCM Minato, not BM. My mistake. 

Well, that feat of him puting formula on Juubito already shown he has superior reflexes compared to KCM Minato.


----------



## Legend777 (Jan 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It is legit, but Tobirama lost more than half of his body. He didnt want to risk there. And Edo regeneration is long when half of more of Edo Body is destroyed. Who knows, maybe team would need his help at the time when he is regenerating himself.



I am baffled that you still don't get what I am saying .

*Tobirama lost half  his body when he was in the process of physically tagging Juubito ( 5 times ) . If he was not tagging him he would have much more time to react to Juubito and escape* .



> I can bring here a scan if you want. Unstable Juubito kicked both Minato and Naruto with no problem.



Show me the scan.



> Teleported behind them? Did he have FTG mark there?



He could well have thrown it while Juubito was struggling to gain control.



> And in that confrontation, Juubito has shown how fast he is compare to KCM Minato.



Yeah .



> Well, that feat of him puting formula on Juubito already shown he has superior reflexes compared to KCM Minato.



Oh god .


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 17, 2015)

Legend777 said:


> I am baffled that you still don't get what I am saying .
> 
> *Tobirama lost half  his body when he was in the process of physically tagging Juubito ( 5 times ) . If he was not tagging him he would have much more time to react to Juubito and escape* .
> 
> ...



I highly doubt he could escape Juubito. But i highly doubt KCM Minato could escape him too.


*Spoiler*: __ 



one of the largest Katons




Well, he didnt. Does that prove anything? Especially since Minato didnt do the same thing too.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2015)

Minato is the faster of the 2 let the debate end please 
it's a boring one 
Kishi already said Minato is faster. In a battle of speed Minato
Would win


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato is the faster of the 2 let the debate end please
> it's a boring one
> Kishi already said Minato is faster. In a battle of speed Minato
> Would win



Stop putting words into Kishimoto's mouth. He had never sayd anything like that. Minato's Shunshin is faster, but its a travel power that cannot be used in the actual battle to increase attacking speed or dodging speed. His own speed and reflexes are not as good as those of Tobirama.


----------

