# [Spoilers 656] Itachi vs. Edo Itachi



## Ersa (Nov 27, 2013)

So with the recent chapter suggesting that Madara is stronger living then as an ET (I mean Hashirama solo'ed Edo Madara without SM and now living Madara is taking on BSM Naruto/EMS Sasuke/Hashirama? ); this comes back to the question of if SM Kabuto's Edo Tensei is weaker then Orochimaru. Tobirama mentioned Orochimaru's ET brought them back at near full power and Kabuto said Orochimaru's chakra boosted his ET potency immensely. 

Thus I can only conclude Itachi was brought back sick and weakened but without MS damage and also not at full power (even Orochimaru can't do that). Before this chapter I believed Edo Itachi > Itachi but now I see Kishimoto thinks differently. Itachi without sickness can most likely oneshot Edo Itachi.


*Knowledge*: Manga
*Distance*: 15 meters
*Location*: Sannin Field
*Conditions*:
- Itachi is healthy, Edo Itachi is as he was.
- Izanami / Koto are both restricted.


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## Ghost (Nov 27, 2013)

Itachi solos.


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## Bonly (Nov 27, 2013)

Itachi beats Itachi more times then not. While Itachi may be fast and smart, Itachi has genjutsu and clones which can provide a good distraction for Itachi land some good clean blows. Itachi has Suiton to counter Itachi's Katons but Itachi also has Suitons to stalemate Itachi's Suitons. Itachi also has Ama but Itachi has Susanoo and while Itachi may have Susanoo, Itachi has great kunai skills that can blow right through Susanoo into Itachi's eyes thus blinding him.  this is a close match but with everything Itachi has go for him, I'd favor Itachi more times then not. 



saikyou said:


> Itachi solos.



I enjoy your avy


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## Alex Payne (Nov 27, 2013)

Healthy Itachi > Sick Itachi > Edo Itachi


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 27, 2013)

British Itachi solos. 



Bonly said:


> Itachi beats Itachi more times then not. While Itachi may be fast and smart, Itachi has genjutsu and clones which can provide a good distraction for Itachi land some good clean blows. Itachi has Suiton to counter Itachi's Katons but Itachi also has Suitons to stalemate Itachi's Suitons. Itachi also has Ama but Itachi has Susanoo and while Itachi may have Susanoo, Itachi has great kunai skills that can blow right through Susanoo into Itachi's eyes thus blinding him.  this is a close match but with everything Itachi has go for him, I'd favor Itachi more times then not.



I see what you're doing.


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## Ersa (Nov 27, 2013)

Guys I'm serious 

If Madara is weaker, maybe Itachi was weaker too. Perhaps his disease just crippled him that much. Orochimaru's ET sucked in Part I, Kabuto's is not as good as Orochimaru's, perhaps it's only slightly better than Part I Orochimaru. Thus

Healthy Itachi >> Edo Itachi > Sick Itachi


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## Kaiser (Nov 27, 2013)

Kabuto said multiple times that his Edo tensei version was stronger than that of Orochimaru. The Orochimaru chakra thing he was mentioning had nothing to do with the edo tensei's technique strength, but the control he has over the Edos. With Orochimaru's chakra he could control them better, something that has been shown on Zabuza or Haku


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## Trojan (Nov 27, 2013)

Edo itachi wins obviously. 

The chapter did not show that living madara is stronger or whatsoever. 
we know that Edo madara is stronger as stated in the manga!


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 27, 2013)

Doesn't matter, in the end Itachi still solos.


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## Monna (Nov 27, 2013)

Edo Itachi (nigh unlimited chakra, regeneration) > healthy Itachi >>> sick Itachi


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## Ersa (Nov 27, 2013)

Elia said:


> Edo itachi wins obviously.
> 
> The chapter did not show that living madara is stronger or whatsoever.
> we know that Edo madara is stronger as stated in the manga!


The truth hurts I know, just like we had to admit Minato surpassed Itachi it is now time to accept Itachi has surpassed Itachi.

I think he may be able to beat Edo Itachi without his MS, he most likely has KCM Naruto speed without his sickness. As we saw in this chapter, it's very likely Edo Itachi is still sick


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## Sans (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm pretty sure that Madara hasn't literally become stronger, fighting as a living being simply allows him to truly experience battle. He's a berserker who loves the blood lust and adrenaline that comes with fighting; that is all.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm not sure, I do wonder why Madara was so horny about being alive again. But I still think it's too early to judge. So Edo Itachi is still stronger then healthy Itachi, although it is possible that they do lose strength from ET.


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## Coppur (Nov 27, 2013)

Conclusion: Kishi is the most constistent writer in the history of existence.


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## Ersa (Nov 27, 2013)

Hashirama just handed Madara his ass in base; now Madara has to take on BSM Naruto, SM Hashirama, EMS Sasuke and 7 Bijuu plus BM Minato? I can only deduce Kabuto did indeed improve Madara but brought him back at a tiny fraction of his real power. This obviously applies to most other ET he brought back. Even Orochimaru's new ET with SM is not perfect as Tobirama noted.

Here is more proof.

*This is near total exhaustion.*


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## Sadgoob (Nov 27, 2013)

Edos are brought back they die. Old Hiruzen. Crippled Nagato. Old Hanzō. 

Sick Itachi. Plus Kabuto's Edo Tensei was probably like 70% power.

So yeah. Healthy Itachi > Edo Itachi > Sick Itachi.

I've been saying it for years and Kishi finally threw us a bone.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 27, 2013)

This also explains why Deidara and Sasori were humiliated.

They were at 70% power. Maybe 50%. Psh.


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## Ersa (Nov 27, 2013)

Sick Itachi was most likely half of what a healthy Itachi was capable of.

Edo Itachi was brought back as Sick Itachi w/ regeneration but weaker so he's most likely a third of what a truly healthy Itachi is.

It's also possible ET makes one dumber, look how dumb Minato was this chapter. Just watching Obito cast RT and not bothering to warp Black Zetsu away.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 27, 2013)

Yeah, even Tobirama was talking about how derpy Minato's been. That would mean Itachi and Tobirama are way above Shikaku when alive since their 50% brainpower is so impressive.

​


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## Ersa (Nov 27, 2013)

Jiraiya praised Minato as a genius.

He would not have been that stupid while living. Thus it's likely Itachi is much smarter than what his Edo Tensei counterpart showcased. Or perhaps Minato didn't do anything because he couldn't react because ET dulls reflexes? Meaning Itachi actually has reflexes far superior to EMS Sasuke.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 27, 2013)

Living Itachi via motherfucking stomp 


With the recent attained knowledge, we know that Itachi was somewhere around 60%-90% power as an EDO. 
In otherwords Itachi soloes


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## Nikushimi (Nov 27, 2013)

NBD Thread of the Year, right here.

Itachi solos. 

(But naw, Edo Itachi obviously wins; they have the same moves and the same skill, but one gets tired and recovers from any damage while the other doesn't.)


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## Master Sephiroth (Nov 27, 2013)

Stachetachi wins mid-diff.

Seriously though, if Healthy Itachi>Edo Itachi, then holy shit.


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## Seiji (Nov 27, 2013)

Does this mean that the edo Itachi that fought Kabutomaru was actually fighting at lesser power than Healthy Itachi?  

Anyways Itachi wins.


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## Rocky (Nov 27, 2013)

Why don't we wait for the official translation before we jump on the ridiculous notion that immortal zombies are weaker than their human counterparts.


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## Veracity (Nov 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Why don't we wait for the official translation before we jump on the ridiculous notion that immortal zombies are weaker than their human counterparts.



God damn finally someone that hasn't  been trolling the shit out this thread. 

Maybe Madara has some Justu he only can use alive. Maybe he can only absorb the Bjuii when he is alive.


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## Octavian (Nov 27, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> I'm pretty sure that Madara hasn't literally become stronger, fighting as a living being simply allows him to truly experience battle. He's a berserker who loves the blood lust and adrenaline that comes with fighting; that is all.



^^^by and far the only sensible post in this thread. OP, you shouldn't assume "living madara" in his current state will contend with BSM naruto/ hashirama/EMS sasuke as well as the alliance all at once. it is far more likely he will receive some sort of power-up.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 27, 2013)

Is it possible for itachi to solo itachi?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Nov 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Why don't we wait for the official translation before we jump on the ridiculous notion that immortal zombies are weaker than their human counterparts.



I'll laugh my ass off if Edos become weaker than their living counterparts, but I'd also recommend  waiting for Madara to explain in the next chapter.

The reactions would be priceless.


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## ueharakk (Nov 28, 2013)

itachi vs itachi is like an unstoppable force vs an immovable object.

The only way the conflict will end is if one side gets bored and commits suicide.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Nov 28, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> itachi vs itachi is like an unstoppable force vs an immovable object.
> 
> The only way the conflict will end is if one side gets bored and commits suicide.



Or the universe blows up from such a high concentration of soloing.


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## Sans (Nov 28, 2013)

If Rocky, Octavian and my own interpretation of that statement is proven wrong, I will never stop laughing.

But I'm pretty sure we're right.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Nov 28, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> If Rocky, Octavian and my own interpretation of that statement is proven wrong, I will never stop laughing.
> 
> But I'm pretty sure we're right.



There's also the possibility of Madara having some sort of power he can only use/obtain while living.

But God I hope you're wrong. Just to see the Itachi haters smash their keyboards in and rage like no one's ever raged before.


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## asstonine (Nov 28, 2013)

Octavian said:


> ^^^by and far the only sensible post in this thread. OP, you shouldn't assume "living madara" in his current state will contend with BSM naruto/ hashirama/EMS sasuke as well as the alliance all at once. it is far more likely he will receive some sort of power-up.



1 iota of reason in a sea of losers wanking.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Why don't we wait for the official translation before we jump on the ridiculous notion that immortal zombies are weaker than their human counterparts.



I don't think it is ridicilious at all.

We know for a fact that part 1 Oro's edo was weak as hell.

And Kabuto needed Oro's chakra buff to amp the level of his ET, but to what extend is unknown.

The notion that ET was somewhat inferior to the original was always there.

And while what Madara was trying to say may have to do with emotions and feelings or psyche, it doesn't change the fact that he'll fight with his full capacity now.
Which means the same would apply to every EDO out there.


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## Trojan (Nov 28, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think it is ridicilious at all.
> 
> We know for a fact that part 1 Oro's edo was weak as hell.
> 
> ...



No.
1- Madara's edo was special as Kabuto stated.
2- Edo Madara is stronger than ever as stated in the manga
3- Madara's full power is his PS as he stated himself. 

So, the translation is more likely wrong, and if it somehow not, then it will only apply to
madara. (Even though that does not make any sense )


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## Ersa (Nov 28, 2013)

Elia said:


> No.
> 1- Madara's edo was special as Kabuto stated.
> 2- Edo Madara is stronger than ever as stated in the manga
> 3- Madara's full power is his PS as he stated himself.
> ...


Madara's Edo Tensei is special because Kabuto modified him. He has greater abilities than his VOTE self but as he noted he couldn't fight at full strength until he was revived. None of the other Edos got modified but they obviously could not fight at full capacity.

This it's entirely plausible Itachi without sickness can move at speeds Edo Itachi can't even trace, bust open his Susanoo and seal him quickly. With sickness and a crappy ET holding him back he should have V2 Ei speed at bare minimum, I'd peg him closer to Minato tbh


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## Mercurial (Nov 28, 2013)

Couldn't we ask TakL to translate? I would do if only I had the raw of the chapter.


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## Trojan (Nov 28, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Madara's Edo Tensei is special because Kabuto modified him. He has greater abilities than his VOTE self but as he noted he couldn't fight at full strength until he was revived. None of the other Edos got modified but they obviously could not fight at full capacity.
> 
> This it's entirely plausible Itachi without sickness can move at speeds Edo Itachi can't even trace, bust open his Susanoo and seal him quickly. With sickness and a crappy ET holding him back he should have V2 Ei speed at bare minimum, I'd peg him closer to Minato tbh



1- That's accurding to manga stream. However, manga panda stated that he can fight normally
now. Honestly both do not make any sense to me, so I'll have to see takl's translation! 

2- No they were fighting at their full power as we saw and as stated in the manga. 

3- OK, whatever makes you happy.


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## Ersa (Nov 28, 2013)

If this is true it would explain how Sai blitzed Deidara and Sasori 

Deidara can dodge Sasuke's Shunshin but can't even keep up with Sai's movement speed. Coupled together with Minato not being able to react to Black Zetsu, it is highly probably ET nerfs ones reflexes heavily. Hence living Itachi could not have only dodged Muki Tensei but blasted it with Amaterasu to send it back.


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 28, 2013)

Can that explain why Nagato got Totsuka blitzed? 

Tobirama seems not nerfed in reflexes though, or he's just too good in alive, much better than Minato.


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## Trojan (Nov 28, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> If this is true it would explain how Sai blitzed Deidara and Sasori
> 
> Deidara can dodge Sasuke's Shunshin but can't even keep up with Sai's movement speed. Coupled together with Minato not being able to react to Black Zetsu, it is highly probably ET nerfs ones reflexes heavily. Hence living Itachi could not have only dodged Muki Tensei but blasted it with Amaterasu to send it back.



1- Sasuke was not attacking Deidara in the first place, but obito. 

2- Plot > Minato. Notice that in the last time it tool almost the entire chapter trying to revive madara
bu this time since the plot needs that it took only one page. lol 

- Also, Oro's Edo does not bring them at full power, that's not the case with Kabuto. 
itachi was revived by Kabuto, not Oro.


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## Ersa (Nov 28, 2013)

Nagato was weakened by ET but so was Itachi so I think it's still a fair blitz


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## Master Sephiroth (Nov 28, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Nagato was weakened by ET but so was Itachi so I think it's still a fair blitz



I wonder if Kishi is trying to hype those two subtly again. Edo Nagato>Six Paths of Pain and Edo Itachi>sick Itachi. So maybe Kishi is trying to tell us that a healthy solo Nagato would have wrecked Konoha's shit even harder. And Itachi would have Totsuka blitzed him to save Konoha.


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## Garcher (Nov 28, 2013)

Strength doesn't matter. Itachi solos anyway


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## Jagger (Nov 28, 2013)

I'd say Edo Itachi wins. 

Madara's statement is rather ambiguous, We're not sure if his edo state was holding him back just like Pt. 1 Hashirama was nothing but a trash fodder, but now, he seems to handle Edo Madara quite well without the use of his strongest technique. The other possibility is that he meant he can now fight with his full strength since he no longer have the luxury to boast around and he can feel the enemy's blood splashing over his body after being done with them.

It's probably a mix of two. Also, even if Itachi is an immortal zombie, he won't dick around. He's not that kind of person unlike Madara.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 28, 2013)

Elia said:


> No.
> 1- Madara's edo was special as Kabuto stated.
> 2- Edo Madara is stronger than ever as stated in the manga
> 3- Madara's full power is his PS as he stated himself.
> ...



Why would it only apply to Madara ?


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## Garcher (Nov 28, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why would it only apply to Madara ?



 It's Elia. His brain doesn't work like the one of a human.


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## Master Sephiroth (Nov 28, 2013)

My thoughts on the whole Edo controversy for this week:

1: Kabuto's ET and Orochimaru's should be roughly the same, since Orochimaru received all of Kabuto's info when he took back his Chakra. If anything, Orochimaru's has a chance of being slightly better.

2: Tobirama stated that they were brought at "almost" their full power. In hindsight, this now supports Madara's decision. 

So basically, if what has been said is correct, then the Edo Tensei of current brings them back with most of their power, but not all of it. One day, I'm sure Orochimaru can bring back someone at absolute full power. But that's not the point here.

About Madara's statement:

Besides the above, Madara could be one of those people that gets a natural high off an adrenaline rush when risking his life. That can cause him to fight better. Only a theory though.


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## Trojan (Nov 28, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why would it only apply to Madara ?



Obviously because his edo is different than the others as stated by kabuto


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## Sadgoob (Nov 28, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> My thoughts on the whole Edo controversy for this week:
> 
> 1: Kabuto's ET and Orochimaru's should be roughly the same, since Orochimaru received all of Kabuto's info when he took back his Chakra. If anything, Orochimaru's has a chance of being slightly better.
> 
> ...



Orochimaru with Hashirama's DNA could likely use Edo Tensei better than Kabuto though. Tobirama may have been at "almost" full power, but Madara is probably at less. 

This would also explain why base Edo Hashirama seemed be holding his own and ultimately immobilize Edo Rinnegan Madara. Living Rinnegan Madara will likely be significantly stronger.

And yes, this may mean Edo Itachi was around 50% power when he was casually pressuring Killer Bee. 

​


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## Master Sephiroth (Nov 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Orochimaru with Hashirama's DNA could likely use Edo Tensei better than Kabuto though. Tobirama may have been at "almost" full power, but Madara is probably at less.
> 
> This would also explain why base Edo Hashirama seemed be holding his own and ultimately immobilize Edo Rinnegan Madara. Living Rinnegan Madara will likely be significantly stronger.
> 
> ...



Either way, I fully expect Madara to start wrecking shit next chapter after he just casually broke Myoujinmon. 50% is pushing it, but this does mean that Itachi wasn't at full power when he was keeping up with SM Kabuto and reacting as fast/faster than EMS Sasuke.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 28, 2013)

Elia said:


> Obviously because his edo is different than the others as stated by kabuto



But they said it was different in a better way


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## Ersa (Dec 4, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I feel in light of the new chapter, this thread warrants more discussion.

I always knew Edo Itachi had Sage Mode


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Yeah, so it seems like the boost between living and Edos is substantial. Moreover, Itachi is among the Edos that died in weakened states, and were thus resurrected in weakened states.

Itachi
Nagato
Hanzō
Hiruzen

Were all vastly more powerful in the primes of their lives than their Edo reincarnations were shown to be. Quite fittingly, they all have incongruent hype with their feats.

​


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## Legendary Itachi (Dec 4, 2013)

And the power of jutsu. 

We should give Nagato some love though, he's also a beast.


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## Ersa (Dec 4, 2013)

So what should Itachi have over his Edo counterpart? Madara seemed to be faster, he also got most of his arsenal back.

- Overall improved stats (speed/reflexes/strength)
- Most likely some Katon he couldn't use as an Edo (I'm thinking something like  Katon: Gōka Mekkyaku)
- Snake Sage Mode is likely (Madara couldn't use senjutsu until he became alive)


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## Vice (Dec 4, 2013)

That statement has nothing to do with Itachi. Stop acting like a bunch of goddamned trolls.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> So what should Itachi have over his Edo counterpart? Madara seemed to be faster, he also got most of his arsenal back.
> 
> - Overall improved stats (speed/reflexes/strength)
> - Most likely some Katon he couldn't use as an Edo (I'm thinking something like  Katon: Gōka Mekkyaku)
> - Snake Sage Mode is likely (Madara couldn't use senjutsu until he became alive)



Don't forget that world-level mass genjutsu 



And Prime Itachi would be blitzing everybody who wasn't top tier:


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## Vice (Dec 4, 2013)

First of all, just because Itachi was the most likely candidate based on somebody's guesses doesn't mean he's capable of actually doing it.

Secondly, he never even blitzed Bee, he knew he was there the whole time. Fucking christ.


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## Ersa (Dec 4, 2013)

Perhaps Shikaku was referring to Itachi attempting the Mugen Tsukiyomi but failed due to his illness.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Vice said:


> First of all, just because Itachi was the most likely candidate based on somebody's guesses doesn't mean he's capable of actually doing it.



Shikaku, Ao, and Itachi said Itachi had a mass genjutsu to affect the world war.



Vice said:


> Secondly, he never even blitzed Bee, he knew he was there the whole time. Fucking christ.



The viz (and art) says differently.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Perhaps Shikaku was referring to Itachi attempting the Mugen Tsukiyomi but failed due to his illness.



It was hinted Itachi could use a variant of it here:


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Guys, stop kidding yourselves.


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## Ersa (Dec 4, 2013)

I do think Itachi with no sickness can take his Edo form now, he may have only had access to a part of his arsenal (mainly MS) as an Edo. It's very likely he had some large AOE ninjutsu and some nifty genjutsu. Add on  that fact that he may be faster, possess better reflexes and better at taijutsu and I think Edo buffs are nothing compared to what he could gain.


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## Vice (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Guys, stop kidding yourselves.



Seriously. The statements made about Madara have nothing to do with Itachi.

Edo Itachi is about as strong as he's going to get not including the delusional wank of his fans.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Vice said:


> Seriously. The statements made about Madara have nothing to do with Itachi.



They were resurrected with the same jutsu, except Madara was special because he had additional improvements. I fail to see how you or Rocky can say it doesn't apply to anybody but Madara.​


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky's just mad healthy Itachi beats alive Minato. 

Dat world-level genjutsu.


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Rocky's just mad healthy Itachi beats alive Minato.
> 
> Dat world-level genjutsu.




He doesn't, even if he's "stronger" than his Edo self, because when alive, Itachi lacks bottomless Chakra, regeneration, and the ability to spam the Mangekyou.

And any picture of the moon in reference to Itachi just refers to Tsukuyomi, Itachi's signature Jutsu. Tsukuyomi = Moon God, not necessarily lunar-levl Genjutsu.


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## Vice (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> They were resurrected with the same jutsu, except Madara was special because he had additional improvements. I fail to see how you or Rocky can say it doesn't apply to anybody but Madara.



We say it applies to the people in the manga that were stated it applied to. Itachi's not one of them.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He doesn't, even if he's "stronger" than his Edo self, because when alive, Itachi lacks bottomless Chakra, regeneration, and the ability to spam the Mangekyou.



One Mangekyō jutsu landing does the job against most ninja, and with Itachi's evasion rate being among the highest in the manga, those attributes aren't as useful as an overall boost.

Plus in terms of IC for this thread, Edo Itachi never spammed his Mangekyō like he could have. We saw his final version of Susano'o for a few moments throughout the entire time he was reincarnated.​


Rocky said:


> And any picture of the moon in reference to Itachi just refers to Tsukuyomi, Itachi's signature Jutsu. Tsukuyomi = Moon God, not necessarily lunar-levl Genjutsu.



In conjunction with Shikaku and Ao referring to Itachi as the only one capable of controlling huge numbers? Come on. Don't be a Vice. The induction was fair, if not clear.​


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## Ersa (Dec 4, 2013)

Madara and Itachi were brought back using the same ET jutsu, Kabuto mentions Madara has been modified but not that his actual Edo Tensei binding is any different to the others. And this chapter we found out Madara couldn't access most of his 'past power', even Tobirama stated ET only brings back a person at almost full power. Not to mention Orochimaru with Senju DNA + Kabuto chakra probably casts a better ET then Kabuto without Senju DNA. And we see how important Senju DNA is to ET.


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Given the deadliness of the Mangekyō, and Itachi's evasion rate, those attributes aren't as useful as an overall boost.​




I don't know how you can draw that conclusion with virtually no evidence on how well Alive Itachi is capable of performing. 

Also, the Mangekyou may be deadly, but against the people he wouldn't destroy as an Edo (Minato, Nagato, Top-Tiers, etc), unlimited stamina helps much more than some extra speed or whatever this unknown boost grants to him. 



> In conjunction with Shikaku and Ao referring to Itachi as the only one capable of controlling huge numbers? Come on. Don't be a Vice.​




Because controlling huge numbers d_efinitely_ means reflecting Genjutsu off the moon. I'd like to find one person agree with you on that point. Don't be a 'Itachi is God.'


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

I'm under the opinion that whatever this is is indeed unique to Madara, as it's something Kabuto didn't know about. Kabuto thought he enhanced Madara "past his prime," which is something Kabuto wouldn't have believed had his Edo Tensei restricted Madara's strength.


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## Vice (Dec 4, 2013)

Don't be a Vice? How about don't be a delusional fanboy?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't know how you can draw that conclusion with virtually no evidence on how well Alive Itachi is capable of performing.



It would be a boost similar between how Madara is performing now as to how he was performing before, given that they were both resurrected with the same spell.​


Rocky said:


> Also, the Mangekyou may be deadly, but against the people he wouldn't destroy as an Edo (Minato, Nagato, Top-Tiers, etc), unlimited stamina helps much more than some extra speed or whatever this unknown boost grants to him.



Being faster means he's more likely to catch them off guard with a Mangekyō offense. Being slower with more stamina means he's more likely to stand around in Susano'o and get beaten.​


Rocky said:


> Because controlling huge numbers d_efinitely_ means reflecting Genjutsu off the moon. I'd like to find one person agree with you on that point. Don't be a 'Itachi is God.'



Controlling huge numbers without sensors being able to tell is godly and nonsensical enough. How it's done is extrapolation, but only one method of effecting huge numbers has been outlined in the manga. 

When a moon is shown while Itachi mentions how is illusion powers will shift the war, it's not a stretch by any means to connect the dots between mass genjutsu affecting a war and the moon genjutsu.​


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## Vice (Dec 4, 2013)

So the boost is equalized for all the edos then? This means Itachi's no different tier-wise then he was before then?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'm under the opinion that whatever this is is indeed unique to Madara, as it's something Kabuto didn't know about. Kabuto thought he enhanced Madara "past his prime," which is something Kabuto wouldn't have believed had his Edo Tensei restricted Madara's strength.



He was referring to the Rinnegan and Hashirama minus the old man body. In that sense, he was beyond what he was in life. 

However, currently resurrected Madara is youthful with Hashirama's cells. He's faster and more capable than ever, but lacking dōjutsu. Still, the boosts from being an Edo to being alive are evident.​


----------



## Ersa (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'm under the opinion that whatever this is is indeed unique to Madara, as it's something Kabuto didn't know about. Kabuto thought he enhanced Madara "past his prime," which is something Kabuto wouldn't have believed had his Edo Tensei restricted Madara's strength.


As you said, it's because he had modified Madara with Senju DNA to take him past his prime. Edo Madara is indeed stronger then VOTE Madara (his prime). Edo Itachi is indeed stronger then Sick Itachi but Healthy Itachi with these buffs? I think healthy might be stronger


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Besides, it's obvious that, at the moment, Madara is weaker than Edo Madara in many ways. He can't use Perfect Susano'o, for example. But his jump in speed and vitality is notable.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It would be a boost similar between how Madara is performing now as to how he was performing before, given that they were both resurrected with the same spell.​




_Maybe._

As I just said, that boost could be unique to Madara. Also, if it's a percentage scale, the boost may be smaller than Madara's. If both were at 50% for example, Madara would gain a far greater boost than Itachi because he is far stronger at 50%

Basically, if we go off your assumed 50% power ranking for Kabuto's Edo Tensei:

Edo Madara: 100

Edo Itachi: 25

Alive Madara: 200

Alive Itachi: 50

Hopefully you can see how Madara's boost of power may be greater.




> I don't see how that's the case at all.​




No Susano'o-camping sort of hurts against every single one of his common opponents. 

Some extra speed however (which is the only on panel boost Madara has appeared to receive) doesn't make up for a never ending Stage 4 Susano'o.



> Controlling huge numbers without sensors being able to tell is godly and nonsensical enough. How it's done is extrapolation, but only one method of effecting huge numbers has been outlined in the manga.
> 
> When a moon is shown while Itachi mentions how is illusion powers will shift the war, it's not a stretch by any means to connect the dots between mass genjutsu affecting a war and the moon genjutsu.​




Listen to my words. The moon directly refers to Tsukuyomi, which is Itachi signature Genjutsu. It's his thing. A picture of the moon in that panel most likely means that Itachi's Tsukuyomi was capable of controlling multiple alliance fodders, which would indeed affect the war with everyone being attacked by Genjutsu from afar.

That doesn't mean Itachi is capable of reflecting his Genjutsu off the fucking moon. I believe Jubito had to summon the creator of Chakra, which turned into a country sized flower, to even _attempt _something of that scale. And you think Itachi can do it. 

It's a massive, fanfiction-like stretch. Use some common sense.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If both were at 50% for example, Madara would gain a far greater boost than Itachi because he is far stronger at 50%
> 
> Edo Madara: 100
> Edo Itachi: 25
> ...



You're assuming Madara is four times faster than Itachi? I'd say Edo Itachi was a bit faster than Edo Madara. And like you said below, speed is the variable being questioned at the moment.​


Rocky said:


> No Susano'o-camping sort of hurts against every single one of his common opponents.



Yet it doesn't hurt nearly as much as being blind-sided. If he moves faster, then he hits faster, which makes camping unnecessary. Besides, if he needs to camp, he's in a bad position anyway.​


Rocky said:


> Some extra speed however (which is the only on panel boost Madara has appeared to receive) doesn't make up for a never ending Stage 4 Susano'o.



It's the only one highlighted as of this moment, but it likely has everything to do with vitality and bodily abilities. I imagine we'll see that when he fights all the tailed beasts next chapter.​


Rocky said:


> Listen to my words. The moon directly refers to Tsukuyomi, which is Itachi signature Genjutsu. It's his thing. A picture of the moon in that panel most likely means that Itachi's Tsukuyomi was capable of controlling multiple alliance fodders, which would indeed affect the war with everyone being attacked by Genjutsu from afar.



Really. He's casting genjutsu on hundreds of alliance fodders without being sensed with his normal Tsukuyomi? You find that more rational than using the moon to catch hundreds when the moon is shown.​


Rocky said:


> That doesn't mean Itachi is capable of reflecting his Genjutsu off the fucking moon. I believe Jubito had to summon the creator of Chakra, which turned into a country sized flower, to even _attempt _something of that scale. And you think Itachi can do it.



Obito wants to cast a moon Tsukuyomi _infinitely_. That's a major component for needing infinite chakra, as opposed to using mass genjutsu for an infinitely small fraction of that.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Also, Kabuto said he could be controlled, so it's not limited to fodder. Honestly, I feel like I'm debating with Vice right now. ​


Vice said:


> Don't be a Vice? How about don't be a delusional fanboy?



I meant no offense. You're just the household anti-Itachi name.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You're assuming Madara is four times faster than Itachi? I'd say Edo Itachi was a bit faster than Edo Madara.​




Four times as powerful, actually. Following these assumptions about Edo Tensei, Itachi and Madara being brought back at 50% would nerf more than their speed.

However, since you believe speed is generated only by reflexes and Chakra, than you should believe Madara is faster than Itachi. They have comparable reflexes, but Madara has Bijuu level Chakra, and Itachi does not.



> Yet it doesn't hurt nearly as much as being blind-sided. If he moves faster, then he hits faster, which makes camping unnecessary. I don't see how this can really be argued against.​




I know this.

My question is, so what? That won't help really against any of his fellow high-top tier opponents. The nukers still nuke him away, and his extra speed wouldn't exactly be enough to go toe to toe with Minato or Obito, so....



> It's the only one highlighted as of this moment, but it likely has everything to do with vitality and bodily abilities. I imagine we'll see that when he fights all the tailed beasts next chapter.​




I will happily conceded should we see so next chapter. Just remember, Madara's being enhanced by Senjutsu Chakra right now.



> Hundreds of alliance fodders with Tsukuyomi?
> 
> Is that so?​




Yeah, why not?



> Obito wants to cast never-ending genjutsu for eternity.​




Off the moon.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Also, Kabuto said he could be controlled, so it's not limited to fodder. Honestly, I feel like I'm debating with Vice right now. ​




The mass manipulation is probably less likely to work on multiple Kage level Shinobi than multiple fodder, because common sense....again.

Minato can kill 50 guys in the blink of an eye, and he can certainly kill Kage level Shinobi. However, that doesn't mean he can kill 50 Kage level Shinobi in the blink of an eye.

Though if you want to concede that....


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Four times as powerful, actually. Following these assumptions about Edo Tensei, Itachi and Madara being brought back at 50% would nerf more than their speed.



Like you said below, speed was what we are discussing. The sort of gap you're arguing would apply to ninjutsu power, not speed or physical traits. They are quite comparable in speed.​


Rocky said:


> However, since you believe speed is generated only by reflexes and Chakra, than you should believe Madara is faster than Itachi. They have comparable reflexes, but Madara has Bijuu level Chakra, and Itachi does not.



Chakra _control_. They are, again, comparable. A is the only individual noted for dumping bijū amounts of chakra in his shunshin to get that v2 speed, although Naruto is implied to do so rarely.​


Rocky said:


> and his extra speed wouldn't exactly be enough to go toe to toe with Minato or Obito, so....



Niether of them notably outpace Edo Itachi, let alone Healthy Itachi.​


Rocky said:


> Yeah, why not?



He'd have to cast it dozens of times, for starters?​


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The mass manipulation is probably less likely to work on multiple Kage level Shinobi than multiple fodder, because common sense....again.
> 
> Minato can kill 50 guys in the blink of an eye, and he can certainly kill Kage level Shinobi. However, that doesn't mean he can kill 50 Kage level Shinobi in the blink of an eye.
> 
> Though if you want to concede that....



The difference is that Kabuto said he could be controlled, not blitzed. Itachi can control Kage levels once they're caught. Granted, Minato can probably blitz multiple Kages levels when they're tagged.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Like you said below, speed was what we are discussing. The sort of gap you're arguing would apply to ninjutsu power, not speed or physical traits. They are quite comparable in speed.​




Speed is included, but not the only thing that would increase when returning to life. "Ninjutsu power" has to do with Chakra control and pool as well.





> Chakra _control_. They are, again, comparable. A is the only individual noted for dumping bijū amounts of chakra in his shunshin to get that v2 speed. Naruto was implied to do so.​




Chakra, control, pool, reflexes, etc. All of these things go towards casting Shunshin, or any Ninjutsu really. The amount of Chakra one can throw into a Jutsu makes a difference, as seen with Susano'o, or Hiraishin, or plenty of other Jutsu.



> Niether of them notably outpace Edo Itachi, let alone Healthy Itachi.​




Not even Naruto's speed was enough to hit Obito, so no, Itachi's would fail. 

Minato made v2 Ei look like a fool, who noticeably outpaces any Itachi we've seen or will ever see, so yeah.



> He'd have to cast a dozen times, for starters?​




I don't know how he would cast it. However, Shikaku apparently knows he is capable meaning he's done it in some way before.


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The difference is that Kabuto said he could be controlled, not blitzed. Itachi can control Kage levels once they're caught. Granted, Minato can probably blitz multiple Kages levels when they're tagged.​




So it may be harder to capture multiple Kage levels in the illusion, just as it would be tough for Minato to tag multiple Kage levels. 

I don't know why you keep bringing up Kabuto though. We've seen weaker Genjutsu take control of Kage levels before, so what do Kabuto's words tell us what we did not already know?


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## Ersa (Dec 4, 2013)

Is it wrong that I believe Itachi can track V2 Ei now? He reacted faster to Muki Tensei then EMS Sasuke and the latter tracked and reacted to Juubito who makes Ei look as fast as a toddler?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Not even Naruto's speed was enough to hit Obito, so no, Itachi's would fail.



Naruto had the physical speed, but not the technical speed. That's why Kamui and Naruto formed the pair that were landing hits on Obito. Obito also had immunity to Kamui warping.

He has no such immunity to Amaterasu, which is why Kishimoto had Obito comment on Amaterasu before running away from Itachi in the movie he wrote. It's a major threat to him.​


Rocky said:


> Minato made v2 Ei look like a fool, who noticeably outpaces any Itachi we've seen or will ever see, so yeah.



On the other hand, Bee checked both Minato and A, then looked like a fool against Edo Itachi, being unable to hit him when his back was turned and being unable to react well to his flickers.​


Rocky said:


> I don't know how he would cast it. However, Shikaku apparently knows he is capable meaning he's done it in some way before.



Fair enough. All I'm saying is that he may have had a variant of the moon genjutsu. I don't believe the infinite chakra is needed for the projection so much as it's needed for the infinite (mugen) part.​


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So it may be harder to capture multiple Kage levels in the illusion, just as it would be tough for Minato to tag multiple Kage levels.



Just like in the traditional Itachi vs Minato threads, it's easier to get an unprepared person to look at something then it is to slap an unprepared person. They're not identical situations.

Similarly, in a large group, all of them looking up at the moon, or whatever the visual cue is, and being caught off guard is easier than slapping all of them with tags.​


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He has no such immunity to Amaterasu, which is why Kishimoto had Obito comment on Amaterasu before running away from Itachi in the movie he wrote. It's a major threat to him.​




I though Tobi countered Amaterasu using Kamui. 

You know, the secrets he kept from Itachi? 



> On the other hand, Bee checked both Minato and A, then looked like a fool against Edo Itachi, being unable to hit him when his back was turned and being unable to react well to his flickers.​




Bee hasn't faced Ei's Flicker on panel.

We've been through the Bee vs. Itachi things millions of times, and you know my stance. 

Against Minato, Bee predicted the location that Minato would jump to correctly, and Minato decided not to attack further. That's it. You overlook the fact that Ei _forced_ Minato to jump somewhere to avoid getting hit. Bee was _smart_ and guessed Minato would jump to the mark that had just been placed on Bee himself. Bee "reacting" to Hiraishin was a combination of Ei forcing Minato to use it (giving Bee what is basically a warning that the Jutsu is coming), Bee's battle smarts, Minato's unwillingness to continue, and a bit of luck.

Bee reacted fine to Itachi with a warning, and he didn't have have to hope for a mutual K.O. 



> Fair enough. All I'm saying is that he may have had a variant of the moon genjutsu. I don't believe the infinite chakra is needed for the projection so much as it's needed for the infinite (mugen) part.​




Casting a technique on a Lunar level doesn't seem possible without an endless volume of Chakra like the Jubi's, in my opinion. It's likely that sustaining the Mugen Tsukuyomi required that as well though. I know that.


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Just like in the traditional Itachi vs Minato threads, it's easier to get an unprepared person to look at something then it is to slap an unprepared person. They're not identical situations.
> 
> Similarly, in a large group, all of them looking up at the moon, or whatever the visual cue is, and being caught off guard is easier than slapping all of them with tags.​




That's where the Kunai come in. Minato can basically warp on top of anyone near one of them. He can just throw them in bunches and proceed to rapidly warp between them, slicing the throat of whatever he comes across.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I though Tobi countered Amaterasu using Kamui.



It connected with his Zetsu shoulder, which he can detach and replace, as shown against Fū and Torune. Well, all his battles, really. Obito's lucky Sasuke didn't keep his eye on his eye.​


Rocky said:


> Bee reacted fine to Itachi with a warning, and he didn't have have to hope for a mutual K.O.



He had the warnings to prevent that.​


Rocky said:


> Casting a technique on a Lunar level doesn't seem possible without an endless volume of Chakra like the Jubi's, in my opinion. It's likely that sustaining the Mugen Tsukuyomi required that as well though. I know that.



That's fair. It might help to know that I belive the moon in Naruto isn't like our moon. Clouds have been shown drifting behind it. It's just a much bigger Chibaku Tensei, still in the atmosphere.

That panel I linked was in a way referring to both Itachi and Nagato. The moon genjutsu aspect, and the moon ninjutsu aspect.​


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## Gin Ichimaru (Dec 4, 2013)

Edo Hashi didn't beat Edo Madara. Edo Madara had managed to stick in some rods before Hashi captured him with the wood. I'd say if Hashirama wasn't Edo Tensei, he would have taken damage from those rods since he wouldn't be regenerating.

Anyway, Edo Itachi probably wins due to stamina and holding up Susanoo longer.


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## Ersa (Dec 4, 2013)

I wonder if B needed the warning or not. MP implies he didn't need it, MS implies he did (Shintenshin ), I'll check the Viz.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 4, 2013)

Viz says he did. The Vice argument is that Bee was looking at birds.


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It connected with his Zetsu shoulder, which he can detach and replace, as shown against Fū and Torune. Well, all his battles, really. Obito's lucky Sasuke didn't keep his eye on his eye.​




I though Obito said he survived because of the 'secrets' he kept. Those secrets refer to Kamui, not his Zetsu body.

Obito also clearly didn't rip off his arm.



> He had the warnings to prevent that.​




Ah, but Bee had an even _better_ warning. His brother's attack forced the usage of Hiraishin, meaning *Bee knew the Jutsu was definitely about to come.* When faced with Itachi's flicker, Bee didn't have that luxury until Itachi had already moved.

Bee didn't actually "react" to Hiraishin, as he had his blade in place _before_ Minato got there. Since he knew Minato had to warp in response to Ei, Bee simply made an intelligent guess that Minato would use the tag on his tentacle in an attempt to gain an advantage, rather than a random mark on a tree. If you take away Ei, Bee cannot make that guess, as Bee has no way of knowing when Minato will jump again. Yet, even with the correct prediction, the only thing Bee could muster up was a mutual death.

For what it's worth, Minato did vocalize "I won't fail" before even noticing Bee had drawn a blade (and therefore _before_ Minato refrained from attacking further from that position to prevent getting stabbed). Provided Bee isn't deaf, muttering that right behind him is going to warn him just as much as Itachi's "Behind you" did. And Bee reacted better to Itachi.



> That panel I linked was in a way referring to both Itachi and Nagato. The moon genjutsu aspect, and the moon ninjutsu aspect.​




Honestly, I didn't think of it that way. Itachi having a Genjutsu equivalent of Chibaku Tensei is something I can get behind, seeing as how he's supposed to be the ultimate illusion caster.

Still though, exactly what that 'ultimate illusion' would be is ambiguous at best.


----------



## Sans (Dec 4, 2013)

Not getting involved, but Kamui definitely isn't the secret Obito kept.

He spammed it in all his fights.


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Not getting involved, but Kamui definitely isn't the secret Obito kept.
> 
> He spammed it in all his fights.




Obito didn't have any fights before the death of Itachi, unless you count Minato.

Also, this:



			
				Databook said:
			
		

> No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air. And here is the biggest question of all: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Guys, stop kidding yourselves.






Vice said:


> That statement has nothing to do with Itachi. Stop acting like a bunch of goddamned trolls.



Harsh times await you haters, you might as well just quit.

This is a new BD, where Prime Itachi blitzes the likes of KCM Minato 


*Spoiler*: __ 




Btw, I'll get into that later. Don't think I haven't seen how Minato and Kakashi had equal reactions and speed this chapter 






Rocky said:


> Obito didn't have any fights before the death of Itachi, unless you count Minato.



He did. He fought 3 tails off panel, he phased through Sasuke's sword and he basically showed his abilities to Konoha shinobi who were chasing Itachi.


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Btw, I'll get into that later. Don't think I haven't seen how Minato and Kakashi had equal reactions and speed this chapter




Just like Madara having inferior reflexes to Obito and failing to react to Lee? 




> He did. He fought 3 tails off panel, he phased through Sasuke's sword and he basically showed his abilities to Konoha shinobi who were chasing Itachi.




Read the Databook entry; it obviously refers to Kamui. None of those minor battles give enough explanation to anyone on the specifics of his abilities.


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## Sans (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Obito didn't have any fights before the death of Itachi, unless you count Minato.
> 
> Also, this:



Interesting, nice catch.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Just like Madara having inferior reflexes to Obito and failing to react to Lee?



That was Edo Madara


But I was under the impression that he couldn't move or do anything because he was linked to Juubi.

But anyways, I am fond of this new development 




> Read the Databook entry; it obviously refers to Kamui. None of those minor battles give enough explanation to anyone on the specifics of his abilities.



Its because they are absolutely retarded.

Kakashi & Co have observed his abilities in detail for a long while and it seemed like magic to them.

Fuu & Torune saw it once and they immidiately knew what it was and what they needed to do to counter it.

Databook entry talks about the mechanics of his jutsu being unknown, not that Tobito didn't show it to anyone.
Obito used Kamui left and right even against weaklings. It wasn't a trump card or anything.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But I was under the impression that he couldn't move or do anything because he was linked to Juubi.




Yet Obito could do something who was also linked to the Juubi, while Madara got kicked in half instead of activating Susano'o.  Not so godly, huh? 




> Kakashi & Co have observed his abilities in detail for a long while and it seemed like magic to them.
> 
> Fuu & Torune saw it once and they immidiately knew what it was and what they needed to do to counter it.
> 
> ...




The battles you highlighted here were after the death of Itachi though.

Stop dodging the point. Kishimoto spelled it out for you. 
_*
"His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air."*_

The same ability that lets attacks fail to connect and allows him to vanish by transcending _space _is what protected him from Amaterasu.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 4, 2013)

Tobirama states that Edo Tensei improvements mean the Tensei are brought back at Almost Full Power. This chapter confirms this is indeed the case for Kabuto's Edo Tensei as well. 

However "almost full power" is going to mean different things for different shinobi. In most cases this slight decrease may not be dramatic enough where it outweighs the benefits of being an Edo Tensei. But for an absolute monster like Madara (who also possess Hashirama's powers), that little bit of his strength makes a much more major difference. For example lets' say Edos are brought back at 90% their former strength. For someone like Itachi trading 10% of his overall power for Edo perks is honestly a pretty sweet deal, as he never had any issue using any of his Jutsu & than he gets immortal body, unlimited stamina, and Edo Regen, which basically mitigates all the normal disadvantages of MS. Madara's 10% is going to be worth a hell of a-lot more than Itachi's 10%, so in his case getting that 10% back may help him more than Edo perks. Not to mention it was vital for him to revive due to needing a living body to become Juubi Jin.

So really until Kishi clearly defines that difference we really won't know whether each specific shinobi is better off w/ Edo Perks or not.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yet Obito could do something who was also linked to the Juubi, while Madara got kicked in half instead of activating Susano'o.  Not so godly, huh?


I guess phasing is faster than moving out of the way or activating Susano'o.

But again, it was Edo Madara, alot weaker than his living counterpart 





> The battles you highlighted here were after the death of Itachi though.


All I am saying is that Obito wasn't trying to keep Kamui a secret. 



> Stop dodging the point. Kishimoto spelled it out for you.
> _*
> "His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air."*_
> 
> The same ability that lets attacks fail to connect and allows him to vanish by transcending _space _is what protected him from Amaterasu.


Either it was written prematurely, thus leading to a mistake, sorta like how Kamui was described as Kakashi's original dojutsu which was invoked with hard training.

Or if it is true, that Obito never showed Itachi his MS abilities, then this enforces the fact that Itachi's admission of inferiority to "Uchiha Madara" was based on reputation alone.

That means Itachi thought he was inferior to the Madara who had PS and Kyuubi @ his disposal, not the guy who had Kamui.
Which I am fine with.

And if Tobi actually survived Amaterasu with Kamui, then it probably shows that Kishimoto changed the jutsu into something else as time passed by, which leads me to believe that @ some point Izanagi's features were a part of Kamui. Because I don't see how you can dispose of Amaterasu with Kamui after it lands or reverse the damage it does.


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I guess phasing is faster than moving out of the way or activating Susano'o.
> 
> But again, it was Edo Madara, alot weaker than his living counterpart




Phasing is faster than Susano'o? 

Okay, I can roll with that. 

And Edo Madara, despite being weaker than his living self, is still quite powerful. I don't know whay you're getting at.



> Or if it is true, that Obito never showed Itachi his MS abilities, then this enforces the fact that Itachi's admission of inferiority to "Uchiha Madara" was based on reputation alone.
> 
> That means Itachi thought he was inferior to the Madara who had PS and Kyuubi @ his disposal, not the guy who had Kamui.
> Which I am fine with.




I don't really care about that point, but Itachi somehow knew Madara was a shell of his former self. That might just be something Tobi told Itachi during the Uchiha massacre. 




> And if Tobi actually survived Amaterasu with Kamui, then it probably shows that Kishimoto changed the jutsu into something else as time passed by, which leads me to believe that @ some point Izanagi's features were a part of Kamui. Because I don't see how you can dispose of Amaterasu with Kamui after it lands or reverse the damage it does.




Warp the flames off. Suck them into the Kamui dimension, just as Nagato Shinra Tensei'd them off. They can be targeted by Jutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Phasing is faster than Susano'o?
> 
> Okay, I can roll with that.
> 
> And Edo Madara, despite being weaker than his living self, is still quite powerful. I don't know whay you're getting at.


I didn't say he wasn't powerful.
But we know that his living version is more powerful.

Anyways, imagine all the comparisons I can make through this new revelation 






> I don't really care about that point, but Itachi somehow knew Madara was a shell of his former self. That might just be something Tobi told Itachi during the Uchiha massacre.



Sure, Itachi knew Tobi was a loser. 
But then, it makes no sense for Itachi to admit inferiority to someone whose powers he doesn't know about. 
The only way it would make sense is if Itachi was taking Madara's reputation into account. 
Which actually makes more sense because contextually we were shown the images of Madara with EMS, not the masked man when Itachi was talking about him.




> Warp the flames off. Suck them into the Kamui dimension, just as Nagato Shinra Tensei'd them off. They can be targeted by Jutsu.




Even if we assume that Obito can precisely suck up the flames which were all over his body, while suffering from that much pain, it doesn't explain why even his jumpsuit was unscratched.
Becase we saw flames start from a small point and spread nearly all of his uppear body and he screamed in pain.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't say he wasn't powerful.
> But we know that his living version is more powerful.
> 
> Anyways, imagine all the comparisons I can make through this new revelation




Go ahead. 

The only comparisons you can make will be based off what we see with Madara, who is not Itachi. If there is a reduction of power level that comes from being an Edo, it's probably based off a percentage scale. Therefore, if both Edo Madara and Edo Itachi were at 50%, then 100% Madara is going to receive a much larger boost than 100% Itachi will, because Madara's 50% was far larger. 

Again, this is under the assumption that Madara's increase in power applies to every Edo.



> Sure, Itachi knew Tobi was a loser.
> But then, it makes no sense for Itachi to admit inferiority to someone whose powers he doesn't know about.
> The only way it would make sense is if Itachi was taking Madara's reputation into account.
> Which actually makes more sense because contextually we were shown the images of Madara with EMS, not the masked man when Itachi was talking about him.




I think this was common knowledge. I don't think Itachi ever admitted inferiority to Tobi, otherwise there wouldn't be so many debates regarding their match up.




> Even if we assume that Obito can precisely suck up the flames which were all over his body, while suffering from that much pain, it doesn't explain why even his jumpsuit was unscratched.
> Becase we saw flames start from a small point and spread nearly all of his uppear body and he screamed in pain.




When is the last time you saw someone's attire take damage from Amaterasu.


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## ZE (Dec 4, 2013)

Why is that that no one makes a living Minato vs Edo Minato thread? Or a Pain vs edo Nagato thread? It’s like Itachi and Madara were the only edos that were brought back. 

Anyway, edo Nagato, unable to walk, was stronger than KCM Naruto and Bee. 
Then since edo Nagato is weaker than living Nagato (he even had Gedo Mazo while he was alive), then that can only mean Pain>KCM Naruto and Bee? Right? Doesn’t make sense,right?

Worse than this would be to hear someone say living Minato>edo BM Minato just because edo Minato isn’t Minato at full power. 


The reason living Madara, blind or not, is so strong was explained in this chapter:
He’s a combination of uchiha and senjuu. A Rikudo. 
Edo Madara was a rikudo in a non-rikudo body. Thus even blind he's so above the same edo Hashirama that was trolling him before.

Hashirama only has one half of that power.
Sasuke the same. 
Naruto as well. 
Conclusion: so no one there can touch Madara. I know that for people who don’t like power levels this is bad news. But it’s exactly as I always speculated, rikudo will always be>an uchiha or a senjuu because a fusion of uchiha and senjuu will always produce something greater.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Go ahead.
> 
> The only comparisons you can make will be based off what we see with Madara, who is not Itachi. If there is a reduction of power level that comes from being an Edo, it's probably based off a percentage scale. Therefore, if both Edo Madara and Edo Itachi were at 50%, then 100% Madara is going to receive a much larger boost than 100% Itachi will, because Madara's 50% was far larger.


 
In regards to overall power ? Maybe.

In regards to physical capabilities, mainly speed and reflexes ? Not really. 





> Again, this is under the assumption that Madara's increase in power applies to every Edo.


Why wouldn't it ? 

It is a known fact that Edo's are inferior to the originals. 
We surely don't know to what extend but looking @ Madara turning on beast mode and the reactions of Hashirama, the difference seems to be significant.




> I think this was common knowledge. I don't think Itachi ever admitted inferiority to Tobi, otherwise there wouldn't be so many debates regarding their match up.


Well I've seen a lot of people argue differently. 
But most of those people are either Minato fans or Itachi haters. 


> When is the last time you saw someone's attire take damage from Amaterasu.


Thats not a very good argument but I'll play 


Karin's cloak at point blank range





ZE said:


> Why is that that no one makes a living Minato vs Edo Minato thread? Or a Pain vs edo Nagato thread? It’s like Itachi and Madara were the only edos that were brought back.



Thats easy friendo.

Living Nagato was bound to a wheelchair. Living Minato didn't have the 2nd strongest entity sealed inside his body.
Their living counterparts were undeniable weaker.


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## Garcher (Dec 4, 2013)

The universe collapses


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## ZE (Dec 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Living Nagato was bound to a wheelchair.


Pain was bound to a wheelchair? 
How did living Nagato fight? Through Pain. 
What was his power? Gedo Mazo+Mobility, something edo Nagato lacks. 



> Living Minato didn't have the 2nd strongest entity sealed inside his body.


Living Itachi didn't have infinite chakra, perfect eyesight and regen. Nor could he spam MS on crows and shit like that.  



> Their living counterparts were undeniable weaker.


Were they? Not sure about that. 
Only Minato was weaker. And that everyone can see. But you can't possibly think gedo mazo doesn't make a difference in Nagato's case.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2013)

ZE said:


> Pain was bound to a wheelchair?
> How did living Nagato fight? Through Pain.
> What was his power? Gedo Mazo+Mobility, something edo Nagato lacks.


True, but it is also stated that Pain's power was on a lower level than Nagato's.
And We've seen how he destroyed B & Naruto within seconds.
We know for a fact that Nagato was stronger than Pain rikodou at least.
It would be a different story if Nagato wasn't bound to a wheel chair when he was alive though.




> Living Itachi didn't have infinite chakra, perfect eyesight and regen. Nor could he spam MS on crows and shit like that.


Because he was fatally ill. 
But we recently learned that Edo's are weaker than the originals, so all that display of Itachi as an edo would pale in comparison to living Itachi's display. 





> Were they? Not sure about that.


Clearly.


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## Vice (Dec 4, 2013)

Bullshit. Itachi didn't have EMS, he would be unable to spam MS jutsu regardless.


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## ZE (Dec 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> True, but it is also stated that Pain's power was on a lower level than Nagato's.


Maybe the fact that the Pains were only trying to protect a powerless Deva throughout all the fight has something to do with that. Naruto never fought Pain at full power, only Jiraiya did. 



> And We've seen how he destroyed B & Naruto within seconds.


While he had the same handicap as living Nagato had, lack of mobility. So how the hell can you say edo Nagato was stronger than living Nagato? 



> We know for a fact that Nagato was stronger than Pain rikodou at least.


Edo Nagato was stronger than the Pain Naruto fought.
Reread the fight Naruto vs Pain fight again. 



> It would be a different story if Nagato wasn't bound to a wheel chair when he was alive though.


He was never bound to it. Against Hanzou, the first time he summoned the statue, he didn't need a wheelchair. 



> Because he was fatally ill.
> But we recently learned that Edo's are weaker than the originals, so all that display of Itachi as an edo would pale in comparison to living Itachi's display.



We've already seen a living Itachi's display against Kakashi in part one.


Clearly.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2013)

ZE said:


> Maybe the fact that the Pains were only trying to protect a powerless Deva throughout all the fight has something to do with that. Naruto never fought Pain at full power, only Jiraiya did.


I am not talking about that.
I am talking about Naruto's statement. When they were fighting Nagato, he said Nagato's techniques were on a higher level than Pains.
That happened after Naruto's fight against Pain, Naruto was talking through experience.




> While he had the same handicap as living Nagato had, lack of mobility. So how the hell can you say edo Nagato was stronger than living Nagato?


Living Nagato couldn't even walk. 
Edo Nagato could. 




> Edo Nagato was stronger than the Pain Naruto fought.
> Reread the fight Naruto vs Pain fight again.







> > He was never bound to it. Against Hanzou, the first time he summoned the statue, he didn't need a wheelchair.


He was.
He lost his legs to Hanzo and he willingly summoned ET and synced himself with it, and right after Gedo penetrated him his life force was drained and he became like the skinny undead Nagato we knew.

You may argue that Nagato prior to that moment could be superior to Edo Nagato, but then living Nagato was losing to Hanzo. He wasn't experienced, and he wasn't a good fighter back then.



> We've already seen a living Itachi's display against Kakashi in part one.


Yes, when he was holding back, as stated by Kakashi himself


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## ZE (Dec 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not talking about that.
> I am talking about Naruto's statement. When they were fighting Nagato, he said Nagato's techniques were on a higher level than Pains.


And I already gave you the reason why Naruto said that. Pain's performance was hindered because he had been fighting a whole village before, and because he had just used a jutsu that shorttened his lifespan. 



> That happened after Naruto's fight against Pain, Naruto was talking through experience.


The experience he had of fighting a weakened Pain. 



> Living Nagato couldn't even walk.
> Edo Nagato could.


Was that why Itachi had to carry him around?
We never saw edo Nagato walk by himself. Show me scans please.



> He was.
> He lost his legs to Hanzo


He was still standing after that.



> and he willingly summoned ET and synced himself with it, and right after Gedo penetrated him his life force was drained and he became like the skinny undead Nagato we knew.


What does the manga say about Gedo Mazo?
I'll tell you: "even if it doesn't have any bijuus in it, it possesses an incredible lifeforce."

Well, living Nagato had a Gedo Mazo with the power of seven bijuus feeding him with power. How much stronger do you think that would make him in comparison to edo Nagato, who had none of that power?



> You may argue that Nagato prior to that moment could be superior to Edo Nagato, but then living Nagato was losing to Hanzo. He wasn't experienced, and he wasn't a good fighter back then.


But he gained experience afterwards. 
Wasn't Nagato confident that he could beat SM Naruto even though Naruto had just beaten Pain? Why is that?



> Yes, when he was holding back, as stated by Kakashi himself


That doesn't count, yet Pain's performance against Naruto counts as Pain's full power? Give me a break.


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