# Naruto Tier List (No Six Paths or Rikudo power)



## Idiopodivny (Dec 14, 2015)

I was wondering what the tier list would look like if there was no Otsutsuki Clan, Rikudo, Or Sage Of Six Paths Chakra involved. Everyone is at the strength they originally were without any special enhancements from Rikudo or Six Paths Chakra. 

Someone please try to make this? , I would make this but I'm not exactly the best Tier list maker. I rarely watch the anime or read the manga. Just from time to time I will catch up with the characters and everything, and the fights.


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## Bonly (Dec 14, 2015)

Everyone's tier list is gonna differ depending on how they rank characters and what not but without mine is 

*Top Tier*

Orochi
Kabuto
Edo Madara
Hashi
VotE Madara
Edo Minato
Rinnegan Obito
BSM Naruto
BM Naruto
EMS Sasuke
Nagato

*High Kage level*

Pain
Danzo
Itachi/Minato
B
KCM Naruto
SM Naruto(War arc)/Kabuto(no Edo)/Tobi
The Sannin(no Edo)
Onoki 

*Mid Kage level*

Danzo(No Koto)
MS Sasuke/SM Naruto(Kage summit)
Hebi Sasuke
Mu/The French Dude
Sandaime Raikage
Sasori
Kisame/Konan
Gaara
Gai/Kakashi
Kakuzu
Deidara
Mei
A
Rasa
Chiyo 

*Low Kage level*
Hokage Kakashi
Hiruzen
Hiashi 
Mifune/Rusty Hanzo
Choji
Darui
Kitsuchi
Kimi 
Hidan


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 14, 2015)

Just ignore the one-eyed Rinnegan Sage Madara, if you really don't want Rikudō power.

*Top-tier Kages:*
One-eyed Rinnegan Sage Madara Uchiha
Sage Hashirama Senju
Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Madara Uchiha (_Kurama_)
Bijū Sage Mode Naruto Uzumaki

Bijū Mode Minato Namikaze
Bijū Mode Naruto Uzumaki
Base Hashirama Senju/Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Madara Uchiha

Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke Uchiha
Kurama (full chakra)

Kyūbi Chakra Mode Minato Namikaze

*High-Kages*
Kurama (split chakra)
Rinnegan Obito Uchiha
Nagato Uzumaki /Kyūbi Chakra Mode Naruto Uzumaki

Pain
Tobirama Senju/Minato Namikaze
Sage Mode Naruto Uzumaki (_War Arc_)/Edo Tensei Itachi Uchiha
Killer Bee (_Bijū Mode_)/Bijū (1-7 tails)

Six-Tailed Kyūbi Naruto Uzumaki
Sage Kabuto Yakushi
Might Guy (_Seven Gates_)

Mangekyō Sharingan Obito Uchiha
Danzo (Kotoamatsukami)

*Mid-Kages*
Sage Mode Naruto Uzumaki (_Invasion of Pain Arc_)/Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke Uchiha (_Kage Summit Arc_)
Sage Jiraiya/Itachi Uchiha (_ill_)

Kakashi Hatake (_War Arc_)
3rd Raikage Ā
Gedo Mazo
Mū/Ōnoki
Killer Bee (_Version Two Jinchūriki form_)
Fourth Raikage Ā

Kisame Hoshigaki
Orochimaru (_no Edo Tensei_)
Sasuke Uchiha (_Team_ _Hebi_)
Four-Tailed Kyūbi Naruto Uzumaki
Deidara
Kinkaku/Ginkaku (_Six-Tailed Kyūbi Mode_)

Gengetsu
Kushina Uzumaki
Guruguru (_Yamato_)
Jinchūriki (_2-7 tails, Version Two_)
Might Guy (_Six Gates_)

Gaara (_War Arc_)
Tsunade Senju
Sakura Haruno (_War Arc_)
Killer Bee (_Version One Jinchūriki form_)

Yagura (_base_)
Base Naruto Uzumaki (_War Arc_)
Butterfly Mode Chōji Akimichi
Rock Lee (_Six Gates_)

*Low-Kages*
Fourth Kazekage Rasa
Karin Uzumaki

Gamabunta/Katsuyu/Manda
Gamaken/Gamahiro
Gamakichi/Aoda
Kakuzu
Kakashi Hatake (_Pain Arc_)
Three-Tailed Kyūbi Naruto Uzumaki

Sasori
Mei Terumi
Hiruzen Sarutobi (_Part 1_)

Roshi (_base_)
Konan
Han (_base_)
Chōza Akimichi
Tsunade Senju (_Part 1_)
Mifune
Hanzo (_War Arc_)

One-Tailed Kyūbi Naruto Uzumaki
Black Zetsu
Hidan​


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 14, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Just ignore the one-eyed Rinnegan Sage Madara, if you really don't want Rikudō power.
> 
> *Top-tier Kages:*
> One-eyed Rinnegan Sage Madara Uchiha
> ...



Thanks For This! It makes sense


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 14, 2015)

ET Itachi above BM Killer Bee & MS (Izanagi) Obito?

C'mon Muffin


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## Ersa (Dec 14, 2015)

I hear Amaterasu counters Bijuu nicely. And Naruto warned B that Tsukuyomi would end despite having Perfect Jinnchurki explained to him. Oh and Susanoo, Yata's Mirror and regeneration are definitely a solid defense against B.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 15, 2015)

orochimaru cant even beat old, weak, caring for his student hiruzen without edo hashirama and edo tobirama how is he top tier. Putting him in the same tier as Hashirama, madara and nagato is ridiculous


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## Bonly (Dec 15, 2015)

Lord Aizen said:


> orochimaru cant even beat old, weak, caring for his student hiruzen without edo hashirama and edo tobirama how is he top tier.



Yeah Orochi could beat Hiruzen without his part one Edo's if he actually tried, or at least he'll pull out a draw if he played around. Just because he didn't try for the most part doesn't mean he couldn't.



> Putting him in the same tier as Hashirama, madara and nagato is ridiculous



Assuming you've read the manga then you saw how Orochi's Edo Tensei got a boost in power with the four Hokages and if having an Edo Hashi that can go SM, a Minato who can go BM along with Hiruzen and Tobi. I'd say having two top tier ninja and two High Kage lvl ninja to work for him along with his own skills is enough to put him on the same tier as them


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## ARGUS (Dec 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> ET Itachi above BM Killer Bee & MS (Izanagi) Obito?
> 
> C'mon Muffin



SM Naruto above Killer Bee and Kabuto
KCM minato an entire tier above Half Kyuubi, Nagato and rinnegan Tobi 
Full kyuubi below BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke
EMS Madara below BM NAruto
War arc Kakashi below SM jiraiya 
Living Itachi below Pein arc Naruto and MS sasuke 

Come on muffin


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 15, 2015)

Edo Itachi can spam Amaterasu so he's got that going for him against Killer Bee. As for Obito, I strongly believe he can outmaneuver him with clones or whatnot. I mean, Danzo's bodyguards put up  a decent fight against him.

Sage Naruto, especially in War Arc, should be above Sage Kabuto fairly solidly now. He makes up for Kabuto's versatility with just pure, brute raw power that comes aided with the help of summons. Have him jump two thousand feet in the air with Gamabunta, only to come back with a nuke? Kabuto is fucking toast.

Killer Bee too. Yata Kuzushi stalls Bee long enough for Ōdama Rasenshuriken to finish the job.

Minato was already close to Nagato's level with his regular chakra, with an entire fucking reserve of Kurama's backing him up, yeah he'll trounce Nagato, Rinnegan Obito, and yes, even 50% Kurama himself with his enhanced teleportation techniques.

I'm a firm believer of Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Madara being inferior to Bijū Mode Naruto Uzumaki. An experienced Bijū Mode Naruto Uzumaki, like when he battled Obito alongside Sasuke, should have quite a long timespan to do battle with Perfect Susanō. Madara literally cannot do anything against Naruto, whose super Bijūdama will make all the difference. Naruto edges it out.

War Arc Kakashi, though, should probably be bumped right under Jiraiya, whom I still believe to be stronger.

S'all good, everyone will have disagreements on their tier lists.


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## Turrin (Dec 15, 2015)

Nagato / SM-Kabuto (no Edo) / MS-Obito / Danzo (Koto) 

Killer-B / Minato / Onoki / Edo-Itachi / SM-Jiraiya / Gengetsu / Mu / Tobirama 

For starters these groups of characters are all close together, anything else is wrong.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 15, 2015)

*Highest tier :*
Hashirama Senju/Valley of The end Madara
BM Minato


*Top tier :*
BSM Naruto
BM Naruto 
Mastered EMS Sasuke/KCM Minato


*Top Kage tier :*
MS Obito (Izanagi)
War Obito
Namikaze Minato
Tobirama Senju
Nagato/Itachi/Sage Kabuto
Killer Bee/Pain/Unmastered EMS Sasuke
KCM Naruto

* High Mid Kage tier :*
Muu/MS Kakashi/Maito Gai
Sandaime Raikage
Gengetsu 
Sage Naruto (War Arc)

* Mid Kage tier  :*
MS Sasuke (Danzo fight)
Danzo (w/o Koto)
Yondaime Raikage/Onoki
Sage Naruto (Pain Arc)/Kisame
War Orochimaru 

* Low Mid Kage tier  :*
Jiraya
Tsunade
P2 Orochimaru/Sasori/Kakuzu

* Low Kage tier  :*
War Gaara/Deidara/Hebi Sasuke
Rasa
Mei Terumi
Chiyo
Konan​


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## Kai (Dec 15, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> *Top Kage tier :*
> MS Obito (Izanagi)
> War Obito


What


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## Shanal (Dec 15, 2015)

I don't use Kage-tiers, that's retarded way of rating a character given ranks are not really all that amazingly accurate

Anyway, here's my list. 


Quickest I can come up within span of 5 minutes, note that I didn't give much attention to the actual ranking within tiers, but the stronger ones of the tier more or less should be among upper members of the given tier (Not always the case, but roughly). Sorry if forgot someone relevant.




*God Tier*

_Night Gai_

*Top Tier*

_Edo Madara

Hashirama

VoTE Madara

BM/BSM Naruto

EMS Sasuke

Edo Minato_

*High Tier*

_Rinnegan Obito (He lies somewhat in middle of High and Top tier IMO)

Nagato

Edo Itachi

KCM Naruto

Tobirama

SM Kabuto

KB

Might Gai

Danzo

Alive Minato

*Mid tier*

SM Naruto

MS Sasuke

War Kakashi

Kisame

A and AAA

Onoki and Mu

Gengetsu

Kisame

War Gaara

Deidara

Tsunade and War Sakura

MS Itachi (sick)

Kakuzu

Hebi Sasuke

Sasori

Hanzo (Prime)

(Hiruzen Sarutobi, lies in middle of Low to mid tier because of hype )_

*Low mid Tier*

_Mei Terumi

Pre-Hebi Sasuke

Suigetsu

Rasa

Konan (W/o prep time)

Mifune

6 Gate Lee

Cereberus Kiba

BM Chouji

Enraged Karin?

Hidan

Juugo CS2

Hokage Kakashi_
​


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## hbcaptain (Dec 15, 2015)

Kai said:


> What


Izanagi>>>>>Gedo Mazo which is just a Bijuu wihtout BD .


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## Kai (Dec 15, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Izanagi>>>>>Gedo Mazo which is just a Bijuu wihtout BD .


He controlled six bijuu on top of that.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 15, 2015)

I was talking about rinnegan Obito wihtout Jinchuriki . The one who fought Kakashi+KCM Naruto+Gai+Bee and protecting the Mazo at the same time *just using Kamui , Taijutsu* and fire barrier .


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## Ghoztly (Dec 15, 2015)

SM Kabuto is way too low, he is above even Pain IMO.  Bee, Minato, or SM Naruto being stronger than him is funny.

BM Naruto being above Hashirama and  EMS Madara? They would still paste Naruto.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2015)

Naruto/Sasuke (Juubito Fight), Hashirama/Madara

Minato/Kabuto/Nagato/Danzo/Obito/Itachi(EDO)/Onoki/Tobirama/Hiruzen/Orochimaru/Jiraiya


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Nagato / SM-Kabuto (no Edo) / MS-Obito / Danzo (Koto)
> 
> Killer-B / Minato / Onoki / Edo-Itachi / *WA Kakashi* / SM-Jiraiya / Gengetsu / Mu / Tobirama
> 
> For starters these groups of characters are all close together, anything else is wrong.


How dare you forget Kakashi 

Fixed it for you


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## Turrin (Dec 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> How dare you forget Kakashi
> 
> Fixed it for you



1MS-Kakashi isn't that strong, he looses to everyone listed. DMS-Kakashi is however much stronger.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> 1MS-Kakashi isn't that strong, *he looses to everyone listed*. DMS-Kakashi is however much stronger.




Not everyone in the list, he canonically beat Obito. But I digress, if at this point in the manga (now that it's over), you still don't see War Arc Kakashi (not DMS) at the very least, in the same league as Oonoki, ET Itachi and co. 

Then I don't know, man. 

I give up.


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## Bonly (Dec 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Not everyone in the list, he canonically beat Obito.



You mean the Obito that planned to lose so that he could get the curse seal that Madara placed off of his heart?


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## Turrin (Dec 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Not everyone in the list, he canonically beat Obito.]



Yes he beat an Obito who couldn't use MS and was planning to loose. And that proves what exactly?



> But I digress, if at this point in the manga (now that it's over), you still don't see War Arc Kakashi (not DMS) at the very least, in the same league as Oonoki, ET Itachi and co.


Tsunade, Ei, and Onoki believed the only one who could stand up to Mu on equal footing was Onoki. Kakashi is part of the alliance, and therefore was indicated to be beneath Mu and Onoki; Gengetsu was placed on that higher level as well as Mu's rival. ET-Itachi can Mangekyo Sharingan w/ less drawbacks than Kakashi and has better Dojutsu abilities than Kakashi [Yes Amaterasu + Tsukuyomi + Susano'o > Just Kamui]. Kakashi in the Pain-Arc, thought Jiraiya strength was beyond belief, and while you can say he got stronger, it's extremely doubtful that he got that much strong, as he was already capable of utilizing Kamui with enough speed and skill to stop Missiles and ST'd Nails mid flight even back then. Tobirama was rivals with an ultimately defeated a pure blood Mangekyo-Sharingan wielding Uchiha and Minato directly stood against a much more adept Mangekyo-Wielder and Kamui users than WA-Kakashi. B rickrolled a MS-Wielding Sasuke who had the back up of Taka to boot.

Why should I consider WA-Kakashi as good as any of these individuals. Kakashi has nothing in his arsenal outside of Mangekyo to put him in these characters leagues and Kamui's performance even as of the WA is still too inconsistent and costly, to place him anywhere near characters who posses more than one ability in a similar ball-park hax/power wise as Kamui that they can use with much great ease or at least similar ease, besides abilities that outmatch Kakashi's basic abilities.

Again look at ET-Itachi, he can use 3 Techniques that are in the same ball park as Kakashi's Kamui and can use them much more freely in his tensei form; than has even an additional triumph beyond that in Izanami. SM-Jiraiya can use a number of Senpo Techniques >= Kamui, which he can wield much more freely, and than has a vastly superior base arsenal to boot.  And so on.


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## Matty (Dec 15, 2015)

Wouldn't that also indicate that Gaara is above Kakashi as well? Not sure I buy that.... War Arc Kakashi is certainly Onoki level. He might be a bit below but it's the same tier


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## Turrin (Dec 15, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Wouldn't that also indicate that Gaara is above Kakashi as well?


And why is that?



> Not sure I buy that.... War Arc Kakashi is certainly Onoki level. He might be a bit below but it's the same tier


Yeah, no. The manga directly indicates Onoki > Kakashi, and Onoki's feats against Madara blow anything Kakashi did outside DMS away.


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## Ghoztly (Dec 15, 2015)

What is this shit? War arc Kakashi absolutely curbs Onoki.

This forum is too much today, my nerves, god my nerves lol.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2015)

> Edo Itachi can spam Amaterasu so he's got that going for him against Killer Bee. As for Obito, I strongly believe he can outmaneuver him with clones or whatnot. I mean, Danzo's bodyguards put up  a decent fight against him.


It really doesn't matter if he beats him, which he doesn't, what matters is how powerful they are.

Killer Bee can wipe out 4 mountains nigh instantly. Itachi cannot even come close to that. He could stream Amaterasu for hours, and never come close. 

I'm not sure why people continue to define power scale about whom beats whom. 1 on 1s aren't that important in the manga. A lot of hype from the manga comes from the person's abilities in general, and what they were capable of doing against large forces, not just who they beat 1 on 1. If that were the case, Danzo & Dan would be hella higher than they are, because they can solo virtually everyone in the verse with their technique.

Also, any version of Itachi challenging MS Obito is ridiculous. Clone GG is fucking hilarious, say hello to Uchiha Kaenjin, Izanagi and Bakufu Ranbu spam.


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## Matty (Dec 15, 2015)

@Turrin you said Kakashi was part of the alliance. So him being part of the army is somehow being below Onoki. Gaara was essentially the same rank as Onoki (Kage level and leader of his squadron) So wouldn't that also indicate Gaara>Kakashi? Or am I just misunderstanding what you were saying before when you were talking about Onoki and Kakashi?

And I don't think Kakashi curbs Onoki. I'm not even sure he wins but I think it's harsh to say they aren't the same tier...


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## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

Ōnoki's portrayal is so funny. It ranges from "strongest of the five kage" to, well...this:


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2015)

Gaara, Ei, Mei, Kakashi , Kisame are on the same tier and below characters like Itachi,Jiraiya,Minato,Obito MS


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2015)

Onoki/Itachi/ObitoMS>Kakashi/Gaara/Mei


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2015)

That's not really that surprising Rocky. He's 79, and a midget.

Orochimaru, his own student, was toying with Hiruzen, and he was 68, and normal sized. Gai was doubting him, his own Anbu guard were deeply concerned. Can you imagine this being the case if Hiruzen were 30?

I can't even begin to fathom what other leaders of shinobi villages and kage levels, generally complete strangers themselves, thought about Onoki's ability in combat. They probably thought he was hella weak. 

They were wrong though. His reply should've been "Sit the fuck down. I'm the strongest shinobi in this room and in the entire alliance, I'll take care of this and you guys hang here and jack yourselves off."


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## Turrin (Dec 15, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> @Turrin you said Kakashi was part of the alliance. So him being part of the army is somehow being below Onoki. Gaara was essentially the same rank as Onoki (Kage level and leader of his squadron) So wouldn't that also indicate Gaara>Kakashi? Or am I just misunderstanding what you were saying before when you were talking about Onoki and Kakashi?
> .


I never said it was because Onoki was higher rank. I said Onoki was considered the strongest member of the alliance and the only one able to individually take on someone of Mu's level. Which has nothing to do with Gaara. 



> And I don't think Kakashi curbs Onoki. I'm not even sure he wins but I think it's harsh to say they aren't the same tier..


Onoki's base arsenal is eons beyond Kakashi's, and Onoki can use multiple different Jinton techniques and wield them all much more freely than Kakashi can wield Kamui. On top of that Onoki has vastly superior accomplishments and hype. If better Feats, Hype, and Accomplishments don't qualify someone as being on a higher tier, I don't know what does.



Rocky said:


> Ōnoki's portrayal is so funny. It ranges from "strongest of the five kage" to, well...this:



Bangs head against wall - It's intentionally meant to be funny

Onoki is part of an age old troupe:


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## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> They were wrong though. His reply should've been "Sit the fuck down. I'm the strongest shinobi in this room and in the entire alliance, I'll take care of this and you guys hang here and jack yourselves off."



I don't believe he had time to say all that in between the agony-filled screams.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2015)

Haha. 

What's with you and Onoki's back?

We're scaling the strongest versions of people, Onoki had no back issues fighting Madara.


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## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Bangs head against wall - It's intentionally meant to be funny
> 
> Onoki is part of an age old troupe:



I am fully aware of tropes. If it only happened there, I'd ignore it in the Battledome like I do other popular tropes, such as superpower amnesia. []

However, that "age-old troupe" almost got Ōnoki killed twice [2][3], so I factor it into his combat ability.



			
				Wiz said:
			
		

> We're scaling the strongest versions of people, Onoki had no back issues fighting Madara



If I argue in a thread of his, I only note that it has a chance of happening. I usually don't focus my argument around it, but I'm not going to ignore it when the author himself beat us over the head with it.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yes he beat an Obito who couldn't use MS and was planning to loose. And that proves what exactly?


Yeah, Kakashi was holding back in their fight too or it would have been a head-shot the first time he saw his face on the other side.



Turrin said:


> Tsunade, Ei, and Onoki believed the only one who could stand up to Mu on equal footing was Onoki. Kakashi is part of the alliance, and therefore was indicated to be beneath Mu and Onoki;


That proves nothing. The alliance also believed they could win the war without using Naruto or Killer Bee. Further to the point, Kakashi's group was already engaged with the 7SSM, so yeah. 



Turrin said:


> Gengetsu was placed on that higher level as well as Mu's rival.


Literally, any sharingan user demolishes Gengetsu, sees through his genjutsu and is able to secure the victory. That's Gengetsu's go to move from the start, no way Kakashi doesn't see through it and beats him. The same goes for Muu, he turns invisible, gets spotted via the sharingan and gets killed. He doesn't need Kamui to beat either of these guys, they are just at a massive disadvantage against him. Gengetsu especially, since his body is made of water. 



Turrin said:


> ET-Itachi can Mangekyo Sharingan w/ less drawbacks than Kakashi and has better Dojutsu abilities than Kakashi [Yes Amaterasu + Tsukuyomi + Susano'o > Just Kamui].


The difference here is unlike in their first encounter, where Kakashi's jutsu execution was slower, he's much faster with Kamui than Itachi is with his techniques. This was demonstrated against Obito, when after several consecutive uses of his Kamui, he just warped an entire BM Naruto and then afterwards warping a full blown Hachibi.



Turrin said:


> Kakashi in the Pain-Arc, thought Jiraiya strength was beyond belief, and while you can say he got stronger, it's extremely doubtful that he got that much strong, as he was already capable of utilizing Kamui with enough speed and skill to stop Missiles and ST'd Nails mid flight even back then.


You remember he warped Sasuke's arrow right? Then he warped a kunai mid-air during the War Arc (after using it so much). Then he warped a bijuu, then he ripped off an arm of the GM. I don't see Kakashi having a problem warping at all.



Turrin said:


> Tobirama was rivals with an ultimately defeated a pure blood Mangekyo-Sharingan wielding Uchiha and Minato directly stood against a much more adept Mangekyo-Wielder and Kamui users than WA-Kakashi.


Well, Minato and Tobirama are guys that I don't think were going to lose to Kakashi to begin with. I'm not saying he solos your list, he does beat some of them and quite handedly too. The fact that you have them ranked there and not Kakashi, especially after seeing his offensive feats in the War Arc, is beyond me. i suppose the real surprise is that you don't even have 7th Gated Gai anywhere in there, when he could potentially take out everyone in that second list.



Turrin said:


> B rickrolled a MS-Wielding Sasuke who had the back up of Taka to boot.


Sasuke got demolished because of his inexperience and lack of skill. He was no where near the realm of Kakashi when it comes taijutsu when he took on Killer Bee. Itachi who was ranked in the same category as Kakashi, in terms of taijutsu did not charge Bee, rather used a different strategy all together. Kakashi would do the same. Sasuke was just experienced, that scuffle does not indicate that Kakashi would lose to Bee.



Turrin said:


> Why should I consider WA-Kakashi as good as any of these individuals. Kakashi has nothing in his arsenal outside of Mangekyo to put him in these characters leagues and *Kamui's performance even as of the WA is still too inconsistent and costly*, to place him anywhere near characters who posses more than one ability in a similar ball-park hax/power wise as Kamui that they can use with much great ease or at least similar ease, besides abilities that outmatch Kakashi's basic abilities.


Kakashi's fighting style is what makes him much better than some of these guys, his usage of clones against Pain were proof enough that he could tangle with best. He has consistently executed multiple clone feints against high level opponents throughout his panel time. I don't see how he would ultimately just forget to do that here.

Kakashi isn't the type too have too many flashy moves, but he gets it done with basics though. 

@Bold: No it isn't, the difference is the battle time was extended in the war and they were trying multiple strategies, whereas Kakashi, using it in a 1 vs. 1 match up, would actually be over rather quick, in either one or two shots tops. Pit those guys against Kakashi, under neutral conditions, half of them lose.



Turrin said:


> Again look at ET-Itachi, he can use 3 Techniques that are in the same ball park as Kakashi's Kamui and can use them much more freely in his tensei form; than has even an additional triumph beyond that in Izanami. SM-Jiraiya can use a number of Senpo Techniques >= Kamui, which he can wield much more freely, and than has a vastly superior base arsenal to boot.  And so on.


Those 3 techniques can't be executed as quickly as Kamui, that's the difference.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2015)

> If I argue in a thread of his, I only note that it has a chance of happening. I usually don't focus my argument around it, but I'm not going to ignore it when the author himself beat us over the head with it.


I attribute it to him being out of combat for likely decades. There's going to be some adverse effects as soon as you hop right back on the horse. 

Once he got in the shit with Madara after fighting Mu & Gengetsu, that back became as strong as stone, actually stronger, considering it tanked two meteors. 

That's the strongest version of Onoki IMO.


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## Epicnessbeyond (Dec 15, 2015)

*Top Tier*

Edo Madara
Hashi
VotE Madara
Edo Minato
Rinnegan Obito(w/bijuus)
BSM Naruto
BM Naruto
EMS Sasuke
Edo Itachi


*High Kage level*

Nagato
MS Obito(Izanagi)
Rinnegan Obito(w/o Bijuus)
SM Kabuto
Pain
Danzo(Koto)
B
KCM Naruto
SM Naruto(War arc)
Onoki 
Muu/2nd Mizukage
Third Raikage
A
War Arc Kakashi(Kyubi Chakra)


*Mid Kage level*

Danzo(No Koto)
Tsunade
SM Jiraiya
Orochimaru
MS Sasuke/SM Naruto(Kage summit)
Hebi Sasuke
Sasori
Kisame
Konan 
Gaara
Gai
Kakuzu
Deidara
Mei
Rasa
Chiyo 

*Low Kage level*
Hokage Kakashi
Hiruzen
Hiashi 
Mifune/Rusty Hanzo
Choji
Darui
Kitsuchi
Kimi 
Hidan


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It really doesn't matter if he beats him, which he doesn't, what matters is how powerful they are.
> 
> Killer Bee can wipe out 4 mountains nigh instantly. Itachi cannot even come close to that. He could stream Amaterasu for hours, and never come close.



I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. That destructive capacity alone determines relative placement on a tier list? You know that's not true. Ōnoki's Jinton absolutely eclipses Itachi's best in pure destructive power, but that doesn't mean Edo Itachi doesn't light his ass on fire with Amaterasu.



> I'm not sure why people continue to define power scale about whom beats whom. 1 on 1s aren't that important in the manga. A lot of hype from the manga comes from the person's abilities in general, and what they were capable of doing against large forces, not just who they beat 1 on 1. If that were the case, Danzo & Dan would be hella higher than they are, because they can solo virtually everyone in the verse with their technique


.
Capability against large forces is one hell of a shaky metric to compare the relative power of characters. I can list one inconsistency right off the top of my head. Itachi could never come close to replicating Kisame or Deidara's 'capability against large forces', yet do we obviously know who is by far the superior shinobi to those two?

Might Guy's Night Guy would obliterate significantly less of an army than Bijū Mode Naruto would with a single Bijūdama. Doesn't negate Might Guy being entire leagues above him.



> Also, any version of Itachi challenging MS Obito is ridiculous. Clone GG is fucking hilarious, say hello to Uchiha Kaenjin, Izanagi and Bakufu Ranbu spam.



I only say Itachi can challenge Mangekyō Sharingan Obito while in *Edo Tensei*. I think that infinite chakra and regeneration make all the difference.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 15, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Yeah Orochi could beat Hiruzen without his part one Edo's if he actually tried, or at least he'll pull out a draw if he played around. Just because he didn't try for the most part doesn't mean he couldn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming you've read the manga then you saw how Orochi's Edo Tensei got a boost in power with the four Hokages and if having an Edo Hashi that can go SM, a Minato who can go BM along with Hiruzen and Tobi. I'd say having two top tier ninja and two High Kage lvl ninja to work for him along with his own skills is enough to put him on the same tier as them



Under the conditions orochimaru put himself under If he played around he'd be dead thats why he needed the edos. Summoning two of the most powerful shinobi is not playing around. orochimaru said he wouldve died if hiruzen was 58-59.
He was getting beat in kenjutsu and getting beat in the ninjutsu portion. The only thing he did was sucker punch hiruzen after the edos kicked hiruzen around.

Assuming you've read the manga you would know Edo hashirama is completely out of his control and an edos power is their own. If you need to include edo tensai then youre proving how weak orochimaru is since he needs all these people to fight his battles for him.


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## Ersa (Dec 15, 2015)

Alright here is a objectively correct list. 

*Top Tier*
1. Madara Uchiha [Edo Tensei]
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Naruto Uzumaki [BSM]
4. Obito Uchiha [Rinnegan]
5. Minato Namikaze [Edo Tensei]
6. Sasuke Uchiha [EMS]

*High Tier+*
1. Nagato Uzumaki, Naruto Uzumaki [KCM]
2. Itachi Uchiha [Edo Tensei]
3. Minato Namikaze, Naruto Uzumaki [post-BM SM]
4. Kabuto Yakushi [SM] 
5. Tobirama Senju

*High Tier*
1. Sakura Haruno [EoS]
2. Itachi Uchiha [Sick]
3. Killer B, Sasuke Uchiha [MS], Naruto Uzumaki [Pain Arc SM]
4. Jiraiya, Orochimaru
5. Kakashi Hatake
6. Might Gai
7. Danzo Shimura 

*Mid Tier*
1. Onoki
2. Kisame Hoshigaki
3. Sasuke Uchiha [Hebi]
4. Muu, Gengetsu, 3rd Raikage
5. Sakura Haruno [War Arc] 
6. Tsunade, 4th Raikage
7. Hiruzen Sarutobi [Edo Tensei]
8. Sasori
9. Deidara

*Low Tier*
1. Gaara
2. Mei 
3. Konan
4. Hiruzen Sarutobi  
5. 4th Kazekage 
6. Kakuzu
7. Kimimaro Kaguya


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## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

Ōnoki > Mū?

Hebi Sasuke > A?

Orochimaru & Jiraiya >> Tsunade?


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## Ersa (Dec 15, 2015)

I need to fix up the mid tiers though.


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## LostSelf (Dec 15, 2015)

Ersad said:


> Alright here is a objectively correct list.
> *0. Almighty Gaikage*
> 1. Gai
> 
> ...



Now this tier list is perfect.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2015)

> I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. That destructive capacity alone determines relative placement on a tier list? You know that's not true. Ōnoki's Jinton absolutely eclipses Itachi's best in pure destructive power, but that doesn't mean Edo Itachi doesn't light his ass on fire with Amaterasu.


No, it's an important part, because the ability to wipe out villages and armies immediately is insane. The value of having someone like that in your army is close to infinite. 

You also add in 1 on 1 ability, support ability, stats, all that other shit.

But what it comes down to is, if I'm a village, I'm drafting the dude that can blow up someone elses' village in the blink of an eye.

I like owning a nuclear weapon. Pakistan has a garbage military, but they possess nuclear weapons, and if you don't possess one, you will lose badly to them, it doesn't matter if you have a military 300x as large and competent as them, they're all wiped out by nukes and Pakistan feasts in your capital the next day. 



> .
> Capability against large forces is one hell of a shaky metric to compare the relative power of characters. I can list one inconsistency right off the top of my head. Itachi could never come close to replicating Kisame or Deidara's 'capability against large forces', yet do we obviously know who is by far the superior shinobi to those two?


Not shaky at all.

The bottom line is Killer Bee is a more valuable ninja, and on top of that, he is just as powerful as him in 1 on 1. He's not some glass canon like Deidara, he has high level durability, speed, physical strength, stamina, range, Genjutsu resistance, experience, a chakra absorbing blade, and notable CQC abilities. All of that factors into

Killer Bee > Any version of Itachi 



> Might Guy's Night Guy would obliterate significantly less of an army than Bijū Mode Naruto would with a single Bijūdama. Doesn't negate Might Guy being entire leagues above him.


That's because Might Guy could contend with Juubi Jinchuriki Madara.

His 1 on 1 abilities are so much better than Bijuu Mode Naruto's that he's considered stronger than him.



> I only say Itachi can challenge Mangekyō Sharingan Obito while in *Edo Tensei*. I think that infinite chakra and regeneration make all the difference.


I don't think so. 

MS Obito would trap him in the barrier, begin lighting the barrier up with Bakufu Ranbu, and within the shadow of the flames he'll phase into Susano and warp Itachi unsuspectingly. Or he can just activate Izanagi, get killed, appear behind/within his Susano and begin that warp.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I am fully aware of tropes. If it only happened there, I'd ignore it in the Battledome like I do other popular tropes, such as superpower amnesia. []
> 
> However, that "age-old troupe" almost got Ōnoki killed twice [2][3], so I factor it into his combat ability.


I'm not saying it should be ignored, but Onoki is clearly suppose to be seen as the strongest Gokage despite his age related issues. Just like Master Roshi was still the World's Strongest at the start of Dragon-Ball despite being weakened by age. Or how Hiruzen was suppose to be the strongest Gokage despite his age, until retecons happened. And so on.



Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, Kakashi was holding back in their fight too or it would have been a head-shot the first time he saw his face on the other side.



This is just silly. Obito casually countered Kakashi's Kamui attempt against Gedo Mazou. Kamui isn't doing shit to MS-Obito.



> That proves nothing. The alliance also believed they could win the war without using Naruto or Killer Bee.


The alliance thought they could win the war w/o Naruto and B because they didn't accurately gauge the enemy's power. They knew the extent of Mu's power, because Mu's own student was in the room. So the comparison your trying to draw is moot.



> Further to the point, Kakashi's group was already engaged with the 7SSM, so yeah.


If Kakashi was mentioned as a possibility of someone who could take Mu, but than discounted because he was busy with the 7MS you'd have a point, but he wasn't even brought up; only Onoki was.



> Literally, any sharingan user demolishes Gengetsu, sees through his genjutsu and is able to secure the victory. That's Gengetsu's go to move from the start, no way Kakashi doesn't see through it and beats him.


Sharingan can't see through Gengetsu's Mirage:

Obito's sharingan didn't see through Taiseki's invis, rather he saw Taiseki's chakra, and defended based on that. Considering the Clam Mirage uses the same principal as Taiseki's technique, the Sharingan would also see chakra, but the problem is unlike Taiseki's technique or Mu's invisibility where the chakra is just centered around the individual, the chakra is within the steam released by the Clam and is creating mirages all over the battlefield. So they would see the chakra of tons of other Gengetsu's and Clams, wherever there is a mirage, similar to how the Aburame's bug jamming technique was used to counter Sharingan:
3

Sharingan can see chakra however, than the many sources of chakra of all the illusions will throw off Sharingan's ability to see chakra. It's literally the same principle the alliance used to defeat Sharingan. The Suna shinobi kicked up a dust cloud to block their vision, but they could still see chakra, so the Aburame used their insect jamming to create so many chakra sources that it threw off their ability to determine the enemies location via chakra.



> he same goes for Muu, he turns invisible, gets spotted via the sharingan and gets killed.



Same goes for Mu, the Sharingan didn't see through Taiseki's invis, it saw Taiseki's chakra. So it will allow Kakashi to see Mu's chakra, but than Mu seemingly has a way to hide his chakra from sensors, so whether or not Sharingan can still see his chakra despite this ability of Mu's is still very much unknown.



> He doesn't need Kamui to beat either of these guys, they are just at a massive disadvantage against him.


Dude even Invis and Mirage aside, Jinton and Joki Boi are far beyond anything Base-Kakashi is capable of.



> Gengetsu especially, since his body is made of water.


Being made of water is an advantage because he can't be wasted by Kamui, as he'll just reform like Suigetsu does. And before you say, but Raiton, all Raiton does is bind Gengetsu, it still doesn't give Kakashi a way to kill him, and it still leaves Kakashi dealing with Joki Boi.



> The difference here is unlike in their first encounter, where Kakashi's jutsu execution was slower, he's much faster with Kamui than Itachi is with his techniques. This was demonstrated against Obito, when after several consecutive uses of his Kamui, he just warped an entire BM Naruto and then afterwards warping a full blown Hachibi.


I fail to see how that's any different than Itachi's executions of his own MS Techs, which all have been shown to be nigh instant once Itachi gathers sufficient chakra to fuel them to his eyes.



> You remember he warped Sasuke's arrow right? Then he warped a kunai mid-air during the War Arc (after using it so much). Then he warped a bijuu, then he ripped off an arm of the GM. I don't see Kakashi having a problem warping at all.


That's my whole point, he had that level of warping ability already in the Pain and Kages arc, but still thought Jiraiya's strength was unfathomable, which shows despite Kamui Jiraiya was still well outside Kakashi's reach strength wise.



> Well, Minato and Tobirama are guys that I don't think were going to lose to Kakashi to begin with. I'm not saying he solos your list, he does beat some of them and quite handedly too. The fact that you have them ranked there and not Kakashi, especially after seeing his offensive feats in the War Arc, is beyond me.


Kakashi is unlikely to beat any of them, unless circumstances are extremely skewed in his favor.



> i suppose the real surprise is that you don't even have 7th Gated Gai anywhere in there, when he could potentially take out everyone in that second list.[/


Gai would be ranked higher due to 8th-Gate, but I really don't bother with ranking the BS Tier characters from the later half of the war anymore.



> Sasuke got demolished because of his inexperience and lack of skill. He was no where near the realm of Kakashi when it comes taijutsu when he took on Killer Bee. Itachi who was ranked in the same category as Kakashi, in terms of taijutsu did not charge Bee, rather used a different strategy all together. Kakashi would do the same. Sasuke was just experienced, that scuffle does not indicate that Kakashi would lose to Bee.


I agree Kakashi > MS-Sasuke at that point, but is he > the entirety of team Taka, I really don't think so. I think at best he's equal. 



> Kakashi's fighting style is what makes him much better than some of these guys, his usage of clones against Pain were proof enough that he could tangle with best. He has consistently executed multiple clone feints against high level opponents throughout his panel time. I don't see how he would ultimately just forget to do that here.


Cool let's take the Pain battle as an example then. Kakashi so called fighting style left him defeated by 2 Paths of Pain and believe Jiriaya was a god. So to me that only supports the fact that Kakashi is not in that tier



> Kakashi isn't the type too have too many flashy moves, but he gets it done with basics though.


The problem is he doesn't though. Kakashi w/ his Base arsenal and back up was triumphed by Kakuzu, someone who is nowhere near the guys I listed. His base arsenal is a moot point in this discussion, i'm sorry, but it just is.



> No it isn't, the difference is the battle time was extended in the war and they were trying multiple strategies, whereas Kakashi, using it in a 1 vs. 1 match up, would actually be over rather quick, in either one or two shots tops. Pit those guys against Kakashi, under neutral conditions, half of them lose.


Wait so Kakashi would have won faster if he didn't have massive help, from 3 other powerful shinobi, please just stop.

Kakashi fought tons of opponents that are weaker to much weaker than the characters i'm listing and he didn't 1 shot any of them w/ Kamui

It should therefore be extremely obvious that Kamui simply isn't as good as your making it out to be.



> Those 3 techniques can't be executed as quickly as Kamui, that's the difference.


No bases for this statement.


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## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

Ersad said:


> I need to fix up the mid tiers though.



Stealing your format with two High Tiers, my purley subjective list:

*High Tier I*
1. Nagato 
2. Naruto [Nine-Tails Chakra Mode]
3. Itachi [Edo Tensei]
4. Minato 
5. Obito [Mangekyō]
6. Killer B

*High Tier II*
1. Kabuto [Sage Mode]
2. A
3. Gai [Kyōmon]
4. Sasuke [Mangekyō] 
5. Naruto [Sage Mode]
6. Jiraiya [Sage Mode]
7. Kakashi [Mangekyō]
8. Mū ~ Gengetsu ~ AAA
9. Ōnoki
10. Orochimaru ~ Tsunade

*Mid Tier*
1. Sasuke [Hebi]
2. Kisame 
3. Sasori
4. Deidara
5. Gaara
6. Mei
7. Kakuzu

*Low Tier*
1. Hiruzen [Old] 
2. Rasa 
3. Konan
4. Hidan
5. Kimimaro [Strategos]


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2015)

You have 4th Raikage above The Sannin, Mu, 3rd Raikage and Onoki?

Dear god... Itachi above Minato?

Why do you have Edo Itachi in your tier list, and none of the Edo Kage in it?

Meh.. why bother...


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## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

Because that is a 1v1 list. That should be obvious with Tsunade _way_ below Itachi. So with that in mind:



			
				Wiz said:
			
		

> You have 4th Raikage above The Sannin, Mu, 3rd Raikage and Onoki?



Assuming manga knowledge and some non-asinine starting distance?

AAA: It's a 50/50, but I (obviously) lean 4th.
Mū: Blitz -> Collapsed Head
Ōnoki Blitz -> Collapsed Head
Jiraiya: Blitz -> Collapsed Head
Tsunade: Blitz -> Blitz -> Blitz (etc.)
Orochimaru: 




			
				Wiz said:
			
		

> My god... Itachi above Minato?



I think infinite stamina gives Itachi an advantage against Minato, yes.



			
				Wiz said:
			
		

> Why do you have Edo Itachi in your tier list, and none of the Edo Kage in it?



'Cause I didn't know what to do with living Itachi.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2015)

> Because that is a 1v1 list.



Ah, well then that's alright I guess.



> I think infinite stamina gives Itachi an advantage against Minato, yes.


I don't necessarily agree, considering the battle will be over in under a minute with Minato succeeding in tagging the Susano or failing to, more likely succeeding if you're basing it on: 


> Assuming manga knowledge and some *non-asinine starting distance*?


Which I'm assuming is what, under 15m?

Allowing A to move above people like the Sannin, Mu, Onoki etc. because you want him to blitz them...

Problem being that also results in Itachi getting blitzed by Minato.

Itachi also can't beat Izanagi Obito from any distance, no idea why you have him higher.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 15, 2015)

I have a hard time buying that Raikage is stronger than any of those people tbh.


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## Turrin (Dec 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Stealing your format with two High Tiers, my purley subjective list:
> 
> *High Tier I*
> 1. Nagato
> ...



Sasuke w/ just Rib-Cage Susano'o fought Ei to nigh draw, yet somehow Ei is multiple places above a fully realized MS-Sasuke. Ei outright admits Onoki is the only one who can take on Mu; and is vastly out performed by Onoki against Madara, yet he is somehow magically multiple places above Onoki/Mu/Gengetsu. 

I really hope your joking, with this Ei dick riding Rocky.



Rocky said:


> Assuming manga knowledge and some non-asinine starting distance?.


Which is what 10m, despite practically no matches in the manga happening as random encounters at 10m.


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## Bonly (Dec 15, 2015)

Lord Aizen said:


> Under the conditions orochimaru put himself under If he played around he'd be dead thats why he needed the edos. Summoning two of the most powerful shinobi is not playing around. orochimaru said he wouldve died if hiruzen was 58-59.



Bruh Orochi sat back and let the Edo's do the fighting while messing with Hiruzen's head(dude went as far as ripping off his face to show he completed his immortality jutsu), hell the dude did no fighting until after the Edo's were taken out lol if that's not playing around then I don't know what is



> He was getting beat in kenjutsu and getting beat in the ninjutsu portion. The only thing he did was sucker punch hiruzen after the edos kicked hiruzen around.



Orochi didn't even attack Hiruzen until after the Edo's were taking out upon which he matched Hiruzen in CQC and then they had a tug-ol-war with their souls upon which Orochi won. 



> Assuming you've read the manga you would know Edo hashirama is completely out of his control and an edos power is their own. If you need to include edo tensai then youre proving how weak orochimaru is since he needs all these people to fight his battles for him.



Assuming you'd read the manga you'd know that Hashi never fully broke control and all Orochi said was that he had to be on his guard not to mention the fact that Orochi has talismans to keep them under control rather then purely using Hashi's cells. You can be butthurt over Edo all you want but whether you like it or not it's a jutsu he has and with it he's top tier.


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## Rocky (Dec 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke w/ just Rib-Cage Susano'o fought Ei to nigh draw, yet somehow Ei is multiple places above a fully realized MS-Sasuke.



Indeed. A wasn't in the right state of mind. He hadn't yet realized that B was alive, so he was rash and emotional. We didn't see the normal Raikage at the summit until after Obito's declaration of war:



Because the Mangekyō techniques are _incredibly_ taxing (you agree with this), and A has so much stamina & is so difficult to hit, I believe he'd simply utilize strategy and tire Sasuke to a point where Sauce cannot effectively fight him anymore and becomes cannon fodder to people like Mei.



Turrin said:


> Ei outright admits Onoki is the only one who can take on Mu





That is mere _pages_ before the alliance sent Ōnoki to his death Ōnoki suggested he fight Mū. A wanted to go to the battlefield, but Shikaku reminded him of what his duty (fucking commander, mind you) to the Shinobi Alliance was. It is _very_ possible that Tsunade excluded Raikage in her comment, _just like she excluded Naruto and Killer B_; neither they nor Raikage were options in battle at the moment. 



Turrin said:


> and is vastly out performed by Onoki against Madara



Vastly? They teamed up for most of that fight. 

Eventually, A got distracted and got genjutsed, and because Ōnoki covered for him, A got "vastly" outperformed in the entire fight? I dislike that argument. In the end, Madara crushed them all the same. Ōnoki wasn't even the last standing.

Who matches up the best against _Madara's_ techniques isn't indicative of how the kage relate to each other anyway. That's like Karin > A & Mei & Ōnoki & Hiruzen & backup because she performed better against Guruguru than they did...



Turrin said:


> I really hope your joking



Sometimes I see how far I can take it. 

I choose to support A in most cases because I enjoy arguing for him, whether that be in portrayal or in actual combat. I've got plenty of ammunition to use for both. 



Turrin said:


> Which is what 10m, despite practically no matches in the manga happening as random encounters at 10m.



Random encounters don't really ever happen in the manga, lol. The Battledome is different, because every fight starts as a "random encounter" at whatever distance the OP specifies. You can argue that it should be different to be more in line with the manga (maybe allow 5min prep in every thread?), but that isn't something you or I can change.


----------



## Santoryu (Dec 15, 2015)

Not bad lad. Not bad.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Indeed. A wasn't in the right state of mind. He hadn't yet realized that B was alive, so he was rash and emotional. We didn't see the normal Raikage at the summit until after Obito's declaration of war:


Rocky you can't have it both ways. Where out of one side of your mouth you argue Ei's performance was nerfed against Sasuke, because he didn't keep a level head, while out the other side of your mouth constantly have Ei acting like berserk blitzing monster in other matches



> That is mere pages before the alliance sent Ōnoki to his death Ōnoki suggested he fight Mū. A wanted to go to the battlefield, but Shikaku reminded him of what his duty (fucking commander, mind you) to the Shinobi Alliance was. It is very possible that Tsunade excluded Raikage in her comment, just like she excluded Naruto and Killer B; neither they nor Raikage were options in battle at the moment.


B and Naruto were not considered part of the war force period. Ei was considered part of that force, and indeed was the supreme commander. So that comparison immediately looses all merit.

And if Kishi wanted Ei to be excluded, he would have simply had Tsunade, Ei, and Onoki, say something to the effect of, since Ei should stay at base only Onoki can take on Mu, but they didn't.



> Vastly? They teamed up for most of that fight.
> 
> Eventually, A got distracted and got genjutsed, and because Ōnoki covered for him, A got "vastly" outperformed in the entire fight? I dislike that argument. In the end, Madara crushed them all the same. Ōnoki wasn't even the last standing.


Yes VASTLY. Onoki's was always one of if not the only main driving force in dealing with Madara's Jutsu. He was the main driving force alongside Gaara against the meteors. He was the main driving force alongside Ei against Madara's Susano'o. He was the sole Gokage still standing and able to defend Flower-Tree World saving the collective assess of the other four. He was thee only Gokage to defend his 5 clones properly (saving Ei at the same time) and he was the main driving force alongside Tusnade in whiping the board clean.

Even Madara himself acknowledge Onoki as the main threat among the Gokage. 



> Who matches up the best against Madara's techniques isn't indicative of how the kage relate to each other anyway. That's like Karin > A & Mei & Ōnoki & Hiruzen & backup because she performed better against Guruguru than they did...


Claiming match up is stupid, considering the wide range of techniques employed by Madara. It's not like fucking Madara only used Katons and Onoki was a Suiton master. Onoki's abilities allowed him to be a major player in defending all of Madara's main attacks, which ranged from Meteors to Susano'o to Poisonous Pollen bearing trees, I.E. completely unrelated 

Stop reaching for an excuse 



> Sometimes I see how far I can take it.
> 
> I choose to support A in most cases because I enjoy arguing for him, whether that be in portrayal or in actual combat. I've got plenty of ammunition to use for both.


Take it to the KC, it doesn't belong in NBD.



> Random encounters don't really ever happen in the manga, lol. The Battledome is different, because every fight starts as a "random encounter" at whatever distance the OP specifies. Y


Which is why most Posters in the NBD try to make the distance longer than 10/15m to account for this and make the scenario somewhat more realistic. Hell look at the first few threads on Page 1 of the NBD and you'll see that starting distances that close are very few and far between, and are usually the product of ether newbies or someone with a transparent agenda.



> You can argue that it should be different to be more in line with the manga (maybe allow 5min prep in every thread?), but that isn't something you or I can change.


The NBD isn't even an issue here, though because were talking about a tier list, with no set conditions. So saying well it's the BD, which can stray from the manga is no defense at all, because it's not like the opening said rank these character on how they would perform in 10m random encounters. Your just arbitrarily choosing to argue from those parameters to make your case for Ei's placement seem more feasible than it really is.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2015)

> Raikage is above them because he's stronger than them. He pushes their shit in with speeds they cannot keep up with. It's as easy as that. I don't particularly rate versatility very high, and honestly, I don't believe Kishimoto does either.


He's not, you said it was a 1 on 1 list from below 15m.

That's your criteria.

If we're using mine, which factors in 1 on 1, as well as everything else, he's a lower mid-kage. 



> Izanami directly counters Izanagi


Not when the Izanagi user cannot be physically touched (Kamui), which is how Izanami is implemented.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 16, 2015)

Izanami was developed to counter Izanagi...


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 16, 2015)

Oh shit. I never bothered to read that long boring ass explanation in that chapter. 

Still don't see him touching Obito twice at any point.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 16, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Even if they fought seriously, Kamui would be a non-factor in the match-up. It would boil down to who has the better skill-set and by feats that's been Kakashi.


It certainly wasn't a non-factor when Kakashi even w/ the help of B, Naruto, and Gai was struggling to just land blows on Obito due to Kamui. 



> The alliance made several mistakes, in their minds they believe Raikage to be the fastest shinobi alive, we all know 7th Gated Gai shits on him. .


The alliance not knowing about the extent of one secret Kinjutsu technique is not a good basis to disregard all of their assessments.



> Kakashi might not be the best suited shinobi (that will always be Oonoki because of Jinton) to take him but that doesn't mean, when faced with confrontation, he would automatically lose


The statement wasn't that Onoki was the best suited, it was that Onoki was the only one who had a chance to defeat Mu, point blank period. Which means the alliance considered Kakashi to have no chance.



> Kakashi's fought in a densely-chakra based fog before and succeeded, at least with the clam here, the highest concentration of chakra would be present within and around the clam, so having this experience he'd easily be able to take out the clam.


And how did he combat that Fog, huh?

The first time he used the enemy's blood and Ninja hounds to track the enemy down based on that blood. This strat fails against Gengetsu though because he doesn't bleed.

When he didn't have blood he made use of a Yamanaka members sensing, which won't work here as he doesn't have random Yamanaka to help him and Gengetsu's mirage sensor jams anyway.



> Either that or since Gengetsu would have a different colored chakra, he could spot him out and take him out via Raikiri Wolf or Raikiri.


Again the Clam Mirage will jam his Sharingan the same way the Aburame's Bugs did, so it doesn't matter of Gengetsu's chakra is a different color, the same way that didn't help anyone against the Bug Jamming. 

And Rarikiri wolf and Rakiri aren't doing anything but stunning Gengetsu as he's made of water.



> Muu cannot hide his chakra from a sharingan user, the jutsu uses chakra and if a 13-year old Obito was able to point it out back in the Gaiden, a 30 year old Kakashi isn't going to have difficulty seeing it either. Kakashi isn't a sensor so that other side ability of Muu's is a non-factor.


The Jutsu uses chakra yet Mu is able to keep that chakra usage hidden from sensors, so that doesn't fly. And nether does the Taiseki example because Taiseki never had the ability to hide his chakra.



> The thing is you can't have it both ways now, Joki Boy would only be a threat after the Mirage is off the table.


Literally nothing in the manga says Gengetsu can't use Joki Boi at the same time as the mirage



> But odds are Kakashi would point out the clam and Gengetsu and Raikiri Wolf it and then it would be over. And by Base, I do hope you mean Sharingan Kakashi not Sharingan-less Kakashi.


What do you mean Rarikiri wolf and it's over. Suigetsu survived a Raiton Sword going through his body for like half of the Sasuke vs Ei battle. Raiton piercing moves will only slow Gengetsu down, not kill him



> ssuming Kakashi had to go up against Joki Boy, he could just avoid the clone and aim for the real body since it would be much weaker. Again, you're grasping at straws with a guy that's shown less than a handful of techniques.


Kakashi is not fast enough to avoid Joki Boi which was casually outspeeding Gaara's gourd sand or escaping the AOE of the explosion.



> I'm unsure why you think being completely paralyzed by lightning is an advantage but if you say so


Because Kakashi lacks a way to kill him



> akashi never used warping on that scale until the War Arc, further to the point, he never warped himself to the Kamui land, so please do provide some scans regarding that. Specifically, prior to the War Arc where Kakashi warped something the size of a Bijuu or GM.


I was talking about speed and percision



> ou state that Kamui is on the level of ET Itachi's Trifecta and now he can't even use Kamui to defeat some of these scrubs?


I specifically stated Kamui was beneath the level of ET-Itachi's 3 MS Techs, so your just attacking a straw man now.



> 7th Gated Gai pushed Juubidara back and for some reason he's not on the list?


I repeat, "Gai would be ranked higher due to 8th-Gate, but I really don't bother with ranking the BS Tier characters from the later half of the war anymore."



> Yeah, with respect to taijutsu he is. He's better than all of them, including Juugo, Suigetsu and Sasuke.


He is not better in Taijutsu than a unified front of Sasuke, Suigetsu, and Juugo, just stop



> Ugh no it didn't. Kakashi was about take Ashura out of the game and Chouza stepped in. Kakashi would have put him down for good whereas Chouza screwed the pooch on that. It would have boiled down to 1 (Kakashi) vs. 1 (Deva) and Kakashi would still be in good shape to use Kamui (as he stated he only had half his chakra left).


So you think Kishi wants the take away to be that Kakashi would have performed better w/o help, again just stop



> We're discussing War Arc Kakashi not Wind Arc Kakashi, therefore this is irrelevant to the discussion.


His base arsenal didn't change from those arcs



> I'm saying Kakashi w/Kamui in a 1 vs. 1 match up against half of those in your second batch list would be dead as fuck. I don't know why you think it would be a 4 vs. 1 match up??????? I'm not saying Kakashi fights all of them at once.


I have zero clue what your talking about here

I'm saying 1v1 he likely looses to all of them and badly at that.

And you still have no bases for your claim that Kamui is faster than Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or Susano'o activation. You showing me a nigh instantaneous feat from Kamui, only shows it matches those jutsu


----------



## Rocky (Dec 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Rocky you can't have it both ways. Where out of one side of your mouth you argue Ei's performance was nerfed against Sasuke, because he didn't keep a level head, while out the other side of your mouth constantly have Ei acting like berserk blitzing monster in other matches



Blitzing to stop an opponent from escaping you and setting up all their shit is not the same thing as slamming straight into an Amaterasu-covered Susanoo because "feel my wrath." Fallacious comparison. 



Turrin said:


> B and Naruto were not considered part of the war force period. Ei was considered part of that force, and indeed was the supreme commander. So that comparison immediately looses all merit.



Naruto & B were indeed part of the allied forces. The Shinobi Alliance is formed from the five great villages. B is from the Cloud, and Naruto is from the Leaf, making them part of that alliance. What you meant to say is that Naruto & B were not allowed to participate in any fighting because it wasn't safe. Hey, wait a minute, that sounds familiar.  

Oh yeah...







Turrin said:


> And if Kishi wanted Ei to be excluded, he would have simply had Tsunade, Ei, and Onoki, say something to the effect of, since Ei should stay at base only Onoki can take on Mu, but they didn't.



That would be because Kishimoto had Shikaku tell A he needed to stay at headquarters _literally_ two pages before that. Like wat. 



Turrin said:


> Onoki's was always one of if not the only main driving force in dealing with Madara's Jutsu.



Always? Oh really? Let's go through them then:

*Katon: Gōka Mekkyaku:* Cannon Fodder. 
*Katon: Gōka Messhitsu:* Mei.
*Katon: Ryūen Hōka:* Tsunade.
*Mokuton: Jukai Kōtan:* Naruto.
*Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin:* Ōnoki. 
*Moku Bunshin no Jutsu:* Ōnoki & Tsunade.
*Fūjutsu Kyūin:* Mei & A & Gaara.
*Yasaka no Magatama:* Ōnoki & Gaara.
*Susanoo:* All five of them.
*Tengai Shinsei & Perfect Susanoo:* These succeeded.
*Miscellaneous:*
_Medic:_ Tsunade
_Flight:_ Ōnoki & Gaara
_Sealing:_ Gaara
_Motivator:_ Ōnoki 

So, did Ōnoki perform better than A? _Undoubtedly._ Was he the "driving force" against all of Madara's jutsu? Not even fucking close. 



Turrin said:


> Claiming match up is stupid, considering the wide range of techniques employed by Madara.



I love how you say "wide range of techniques," and then go on to list a mere three jutsu that all happen to be gigantic in scale. It's like, too good. 

Anyway, since you didn't actually address this, I guess I'll just repost it:

Who matches up the best against Madara's techniques isn't indicative of how the kage relate to each other anyway. That's like Karin > A & Mei & Ōnoki & Hiruzen & backup because she performed better against Guruguru than they did...



Turrin said:


> Which is why most Posters in the NBD try to make the distance longer than 10/15m to account for this and make the scenario somewhat more realistic.



...if anything, a random encounter at 50m is _less_ realistic than a random encounter at 10m.



Turrin said:


> The NBD isn't even an issue here, though because were talking about a tier list, with no set conditions.



Then I'd need to make multiple lists. Since I'm not going to do that, I made one for the stipulations I see most often: Generic Field, 5-50m, Manga Knowledge, IC. By "asinine distance" I actually meant like > a hundred meters.


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 16, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Oh shit. I never bothered to read that long boring ass explanation in that chapter.
> 
> Still don't see him touching Obito twice at any point.



Fu and Torune managed to figure him out and devise a strategy after one encounter. Itachi is 100 times more skilled, and 1000X more intelligent/intuitive. The same man who figured out 3 of Nagato's 6 paths and effectively countered them, figured a way to beat Kabuto, and even gained the latters praise for being especially intuitive even amongst Uchiha. Itachi with his clone game is a major threat to Obito, who reactions in MS are not better than Sage Kabuto who got feinted from under a meter away.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 16, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Oh shit. I never bothered to read that long boring ass explanation in that chapter.
> 
> Still don't see him touching Obito twice at any point.


Fu and Torune managed to tag him once and you think a fellow MS wielding Uchiha with 5.0 intelligence, clones and is pretty fast to boot is going to fail to do it two times? I don't see it.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It certainly wasn't a non-factor when Kakashi even w/ the help of B, Naruto, and Gai was struggling to just land blows on Obito due to Kamui.


Again, I said 1 vs. 1 straight up, not 6 vs. 1, or whatever Obito was doing with the Jinchuriki.



Turrin said:


> The alliance not knowing about the extent of one secret Kinjutsu technique is not a good basis to disregard all of their assessments.


The alliance miscalculated a great deal, I don't think I would take anything they said under advisement. Kakashi was clearly their best shot at defeating Obito, but they didn't know that. They also thought their best chance at winning the war was without Naruto/Bee. Again, not a modicum of solid intelligence I would want to wear my hat around. 

Just saying.



Turrin said:


> The statement wasn't that Onoki was the best suited, it was that Onoki was the only one who had a chance to defeat Mu, point blank period. Which means the alliance considered Kakashi to have no chance.


Oonoki was the best suited and they specifically stated that because of his Kekkai Tota. That doesn't mean Muu would only lose to Oonoki, as Naruto obviously put a stop to him in the end. And further to the point, that doesn't necessarily mean Kakashi would lose to him either. 




Turrin said:


> And how did he combat that Fog, huh?
> 
> The first time he used the enemy's blood and Ninja hounds to track the enemy down based on that blood. This strat fails against Gengetsu though because he doesn't bleed.
> 
> When he didn't have blood he made use of a Yamanaka members sensing, which won't work here as he doesn't have random Yamanaka to help him and Gengetsu's mirage sensor jams anyway.


Right, I forgot Kakashi has a 0 in intelligence, so he wouldn't learn anything. It's not like he's rated as one of the most intelligent individuals in the manga. Just stop bro, you're embarrassing yourself now. 



Turrin said:


> Again the Clam Mirage will jam his Sharingan the same way the Aburame's Bugs did, so it doesn't matter of Gengetsu's chakra is a different color, the same way that didn't help anyone against the Bug Jamming.


Not necessarily, the Bee jamming was all over the place, the fog will be concentrated at its core around the clam, so there will be patches of visibility which Kakashi will be able to use.



Turrin said:


> And Rarikiri wolf and Rakiri aren't doing anything but stunning Gengetsu as he's made of water.


They paralyze and Suigetsu and Raikiri could potentially evaporate or exhaust him, just like how Suigetsu ended up from Killer Bee.



Turrin said:


> The Jutsu uses chakra yet Mu is able to keep that chakra usage hidden from sensors, so that doesn't fly. And nether does the Taiseki example because Taiseki never had the ability to hide his chakra.


Turrin, Kakashi isn't a sensor, he's going to see Muu with his sharingan. 



Turrin said:


> Literally nothing in the manga says Gengetsu can't use Joki Boi at the same time as the mirage


Literally nothing in the manga says Kakashi doesn't evaporate him with multiple Raikiri, the element obviously hurts them. It's not something you can just overlook, cause you have a hard-on for Gengetsu and Muu.



Turrin said:


> What do you mean Rarikiri wolf and it's over. Suigetsu survived a Raiton Sword going through his body for like half of the Sasuke vs Ei battle. Raiton piercing moves will only slow Gengetsu down, not kill him


Raikiri Wolf'ing the Clam & a Raikiri to Gengetsu would evaporate him. More to the point, Kakashi can pin him down with a kunai-infused Raiton blade. He'd be paralyzed and couldn't move. 



Turrin said:


> Kakashi is not fast enough to avoid Joki Boi which was casually outspeeding Gaara's gourd sand or escaping the AOE of the explosion.


Oh right, not like he can set up a wall or go underground to avoid the brunt of the explosion right.



Turrin said:


> Because Kakashi lacks a way to kill him


He doesn't need to, he wins when Gengetsu is paralyzed, it's no different than Sasori using his poisons to get a scratch.



Turrin said:


> I was talking about speed and percision


You didn't mention speed or precision in your post, you specifically stated: 

			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> That's my whole point, *he had that level of warping ability already in the Pain and Kages arc*, but still thought Jiraiya's strength was unfathomable, which shows despite Kamui Jiraiya was still well outside Kakashi's reach strength wise


How am I supposed to deduce what you are talking about when you don't even complete your thoughts properly.

And more to the point the versatility and strength of Kakashi's Kamui increased rapidly during the War Arc. So a statement made by Kakashi in the heat of battle nearly 200 chapters ago doesn't really hold an ounce of water when he's seen warping full-blown Bijuu's.



Turrin said:


> I *specifically stated Kamui was beneath the level of ET-Itachi's 3 MS Techs*, so your just attacking a straw man now.


No you didn't and no I am not, as you can clearly see here:


			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Again look at ET-Itachi, *he can use 3 Techniques that are in the same ball park as Kakashi's Kamui*...





Turrin said:


> I repeat, "Gai would be ranked higher due to 8th-Gate, but I really don't bother with ranking the BS Tier characters from the later half of the war anymore."


Oh so you're picking favorites, good to know you are about as objective as the rest of us fanboys. 



Turrin said:


> He is not better in Taijutsu than a unified front of Sasuke, Suigetsu, and Juugo, just stop


In terms of taijutsu/kinjutsu, he's a solid tier above Sasuke alone, the others are effectively non factors. Juugo's best taijutsu feat is turning into a monster and charging at the person head on. Kakashi's going to side-step him and gut him.



Turrin said:


> So you think Kishi wants the take away to be that Kakashi would have performed better w/o help, again just stop


Oh so you think Kakashi's Raikiri wouldn't have broken Asura in half? 



Turrin said:


> His base arsenal didn't change from those arcs


After the Wind Arc, Kakashi attained this list of base jutsu:

Doton: Doryuheki
Raiton: Raijuu Tsuiga
Raiton: Kage Bunshin
Raiton: Raiden
Sharingan Genjutsu

He became far more diversified and toyed around with Obito in genjutsu as well had the feat of multi-casting it. If you include his improved usage of Kamui, then I think it's obvious.


Turrin said:


> I have zero clue what your talking about here
> 
> *I'm saying 1v1 he likely looses to all of them and badly at that.*


That's not what you said, you said he had at least 3 super-powered people backing him.

			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Wait so Kakashi would have won faster if he didn't have massive help, from 3 other powerful shinobi, please just stop.


If you think he loses 1 vs. 1  against everyone and badly, against those guys, then I guess I have nothing further to discuss with you since at this point, you clearly aren't looking at this objectively because of whatever hubris/arrogant reason you have to '*win*' every discussion.



Turrin said:


> And you still have no bases for your claim that Kamui is faster than Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or Susano'o activation. You showing me a nigh instantaneous feat from Kamui, only shows it matches those jutsu


I thought Kakahsi trumping an Uchiha w/the Rin'negnan and the same technique was evidence enough, but I guess manga evidence isn't good enough for you either?


----------



## Turrin (Dec 16, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Again, I said 1 vs. 1 straight up, not 6 vs. 1, or whatever Obito was doing with the Jinchuriki.



I'm talking about after the Edo Jin were already dealt with, and Kakashi/Gai/B/Naruto were just fighting Obito, and struggling for chapters on end to hit him 4v1.



> The alliance miscalculated a great deal, I don't think I would take anything they said under advisement. Kakashi was clearly their best shot at defeating Obito, but they didn't know that. They also thought their best chance at winning the war was without Naruto/Bee. Again, not a modicum of solid intelligence I would want to wear my hat around.


Again all your examples are of them miscalculating the abilities of unknown enemies. Mu was very much an known quantity; I repeat his student was in the fucking room bro.



> Oonoki was the best suited and they specifically stated that because of his Kekkai Tota. That doesn't mean Muu would only lose to Oonoki, as Naruto obviously put a stop to him in the end. And further to the point, that doesn't necessarily mean Kakashi would lose to him either.


They never stated Onoki was the best suited. They stated only Onoki could handle Mu, point blank period. That means they didn't think anyone else in the alliance capable of it, and that includes Kakashi.



> Right, I forgot Kakashi has a 0 in intelligence, so he wouldn't learn anything. It's not like he's rated as one of the most intelligent individuals in the manga.


Kakashi being intelligent doesn't give you the right to just assume Kakashi will pull a counter out of his ass. Kakashi hasn't shown any Jutsu/abilities that would allow him to counter the Mirage.



> Not necessarily, the Bee jamming was all over the place, the fog will be concentrated at its core around the clam, so there will be patches of visibility which Kakashi will be able to use.


The Fog is spread battlefield wide and ghost mirages are spread out everywhere. I'll quote the DB if i have to.



> They paralyze and Suigetsu and Raikiri could potentially evaporate or exhaust him,


That's exactly what I said they'd stun him and that's it



> just like how Suigetsu ended up from Killer Bee.


Please don't compare Rarikiri to a TBB; your better than this joke of a false equivalency fallacy 



> Turrin, Kakashi isn't a sensor, he's going to see Muu with his sharingan.


Which is why I said at the very beginning of this discussion it depends on whether Mu's ability to hide his chakra only works on sensors or would also work on Sharingan as well. Something we don't know the answer to.



> Literally nothing in the manga says Kakashi doesn't evaporate him with multiple Raikiri, the element obviously hurts them. It's not something you can just overlook, cause you have a hard-on for Gengetsu and Muu.


This literally has nothing to do with my point. And please don't accuse me of bias, when we both know Kakashi is your fav character, while nether Mu or Gengetsu are mine, so just stop with that garbage right now or I'm done here.



> Raikiri Wolf'ing the Clam & a Raikiri to Gengetsu would evaporate him. More to the point, Kakashi can pin him down with a kunai-infused Raiton blade. He'd be paralyzed and couldn't move.


Kakashi can't see through the Clam Mirage, to hit the Clam or Gengetsu. But assuming he magically did and he managed to stun Gengetsu with Raiton, he'd still have Joki Boi to deal with. Gaara managed to very quickly bind Gengetsu after dealing with the Mirage, but still had a tough fight due to Joki Boi.



> Oh right, not like he can set up a wall or go underground to avoid the brunt of the explosion right.


What fucking wall has Kakashi shown that is tanking Joki Boi's explosion and he is not escaping Joki Boi's giant blast by going a bit underground ether. Maybe if he dug deep underground, but he's not fast enough to be that far ahead of Joki Boi in movements, considering how speedy Joki Boi itself is.



> He doesn't need to, he wins when Gengetsu is paralyzed, it's no different than Sasori using his poisons to get a scratch.


Yes it is different, because Sasori's poison than kills his enemy. Just stunning the enemy is not a win, the perfect illustration of that is Gaara vs Gengetsu where again Gaara accomplished that immediately after dispelling the illusion, but still had a tough time due to Joki Boi.



> And more to the point the versatility and strength of Kakashi's Kamui increased rapidly during the War Arc. So a statement made by Kakashi in the heat of battle nearly 200 chapters ago doesn't really hold an ounce of water when he's seen warping full-blown Bijuu's.


He only warped Bijuu w/ the aid of  Bijuu chakra, so don't even begin to bring in that feat. 

But it holds water in accordance with the idea that Kakashi can just oneshot one of these characters with Kamui, he clearly can't as otherwise he wouldn't be talking about how unfathomable Jiriaya's power was, if he could one shot his ass.



> No you didn't and no I am not, as you can clearly see here:


Yeah they are all individually in Kamui's ballpark, I specifically told you in the same post that collectively they are superior.



> Oh so you're picking favorites, good to know you are about as objective as the rest of us fanboys.


What do you mean picking favorites lol, I didn't rank anyone stronger than MS-Obito and Nagato. It's not like I just ignored Gai and only Gai. Also lol I really enjoy Gai's character, so stop with that.



> In terms of taijutsu/kinjutsu, he's a solid tier above Sasuke alone, the others are effectively non factors. Juugo's best taijutsu feat is turning into a monster and charging at the person head on. Kakashi's going to side-step him and gut him.


I stopped at the others are non-factors, as you should have



> Oh so you think Kakashi's Raikiri wouldn't have broken Asura in half?


I think Kakashi would have done some damage to Ashura, but than got wasted by Deva even easier than he did with back up.



> After the Wind Arc, Kakashi attained this list of base jutsu:


Prove he attained them after the wind arc



> If you think he loses 1 vs. 1 against everyone and badly, against those guys, then I guess I have nothing further to discuss with you since at this point, you clearly aren't looking at this objectively


With 3 Shinobi HELPING HIM. That quote was in reference to the Obito fight where Kakashi had help and still was struggling with Obito.



> because of whatever hubris/arrogant reason you have to 'win' every discussion.


So your already back to this. Even after all the shit you said last time and PM apology. Stop getting so worked up about a fictional fucking character bro. Your favorite doesn't need to be overrated strength wise by everyone to justify him being a good character.



> I thought Kakahsi trumping an Uchiha w/the Rin'negnan and the same technique was evidence enough, but I guess manga evidence isn't good enough for you either?


Yeah if said Uchiha used Rinnegan or MS at all in that fight you might have a point.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Dec 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So your already back to this.


I wasn't the one swearing and cursing up a storm, that was you.


Turrin said:


> *Even after all the shit you said last time and PM apology*. Stop getting so worked up about a fictional fucking character bro. Your favorite doesn't need to be overrated strength wise by everyone to justify him being a good character.


And for the record, personally, I apologized because I truly was sorry and in the wrong because I let serious life-changing issues cloud my judgement and in the midst of a discussion I just ended up taking it out on you. For that I was sorry.

But you know, it's really bad taste bringing up a private conversation in a public forum. What makes it worse is giving only one side of the story to deride me, which really is a shit move man. It reflects poorly of your character and truthfully, lost respect for you there buddy.

I thought you were better than that, guess I was wrong.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I wasn't the one swearing and cursing up a storm, that was you.
> And for the record, personally, I apologized because I truly was sorry and in the wrong because I let serious life-changing issues cloud my judgement and in the midst of a discussion I just ended up taking it out on you. For that I was sorry.
> 
> But you know, it's really bad taste bringing up a private conversation in a public forum. What makes it worse is giving only one side of the story to deride me, which really is a shit move man. It reflects poorly of your character and truthfully, lost respect for you there buddy.
> ...



1) You brought up a private story, I talked about a PM apology, never the content of that apology or reason for it. 
2) I use curse words in casual speech, you should know that from my history on the forum and our own conversations, so trying to twist that now into some grave insult is pretty weak
3) You have shown a consistent pattern of attacking my character, any time your lack an appropriate counter point

I suggest you re-read this entire conversation and really consider who is at fault here. Me who was providing actual evidence for discussion. Or you who argued from clear place of bias from the Jump (Kakashi beating Obito), than proceeded right into personal attacks from there, and is now trying to deflect the blame onto me, simply because I attempted to remind you to check yourself, before going down the same route of personal attacks as you did before. If you can't see who is really at fault here, that's not my problem though, I'll just be done putting effort into discussing shit seriously with you, which is shame because I enjoyed our VM's, but I'm not going to put up with someone whose going to resort to personal attacks every-time our opinions are at odds. K, peace out bro.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 17, 2015)

I hate these threads. Too lazy to make my own rankings.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Dec 17, 2015)

What do y'all think of my tier list overall?


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 17, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *Top-tier Kages:*
> One-eyed Rinnegan Sage Madara Uchiha
> Sage Hashirama Senju
> Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Madara Uchiha (_Kurama_)
> ...



Too lazy to do the rest and may have missed a case or two.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 17, 2015)

Kinkaku and Ginkaku should be above Tobirama lol. Also, why are two guys with six-tailed v2 shrouds under Naruto, who is one guy with a four-tailed v2 shroud. That makes no sense. Seventh Gate Gai should be below Raikage; Raikage's speed & strength do not rip his body to shreds. KN6 is way, _way_ too high. Also, this is odd:



> Mū/Ōnoki
> Sage Mode Naruto Uzumaki (Invasion of Pain Arc)/Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke Uchiha (Kage Summit Arc)
> Sage Jiraiya
> 3rd Raikage Ā
> ...



Like...

*Mū or Ōnoki vs SM Naruto:* Naruto wins.
*Mū or Ōnoki vs MS Sasuke:* Sasuke stomps.
*Mū or Ōnoki vs SM Jiraiya:* Jiraiya wins.
*Mū or Ōnoki vs AAA:* Mū might win, Ōnoki loses.
*Mū or Ōnoki vs B without Bijū Mode:* B stomps.
*Mū or Ōnoki vs A:* A stomps.


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kinkaku and Ginkaku should be above Tobirama lol.


Didn't they ambush him with multiple people and fail to kill him despite sage weapons, and Kyuubi forms? I genuinly forgot.



> Also, why are two guys with six-tailed v2 shrouds under Naruto, who is one guy with a four-tailed v2 shroud.


Not all tails are equal, Kyuubi has way more chakra than everyother Bjuu, and KN4 has better physical feats and Bjuudama.



> Seventh Gate Gai should be below Raikage; Raikage's speed & strength do not rip his body to shreds.


Gated Gai is not that slow that he's getting blitzed. Ei has a speed advantage but it's akin to V1 Ei vs MS Sasuke IMO. Gai kept pace with Madara in juubi form, and pushed him back regarding Taijutsu, when Madara wrecked Minato in CqC, lol blitzed Kakashi, and was obviously physically on par with Juubito. He is much more skilled and reactive enough to duke it out with Ei, combined with him also having wayyyyyyyy more range and DC.



> KN6 is way, _way_ too high. Also, this is odd:






Like...



> Mū or Ōnoki vs SM Naruto: Naruto wins.


Depends on knowledge.



> Mū or Ōnoki vs MS Sasuke: Sasuke stomps.


Depends on Knowledge and Location.



> Mū or Ōnoki vs SM Jiraiya: Jiraiya wins.


Depends if J man starts in base or not and on distance/location.

M





> ū or Ōnoki vs B without Bijū Mode: B stomps.


Not at all.



> Mū or Ōnoki vs A: A stomps.


 depends on the distance.


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## Rocky (Dec 17, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Didn't they ambush him with multiple people and fail to kill him despite sage weapons, and Kyuubi forms? I genuinly forgot.



When Raikage was trying to explain how "fearsome" the two were in the past, he brought up them driving Tobirama to the brink of death. It doesn't say that they had backup, though even if they did, Tobirama likely had the Second Raikage, so...



Dr. White said:


> Not all tails are equal, Kyuubi has way more chakra than everyother Bjuu, and KN4 has better physical feats and Bjuudama.



Kinkaku & Ginkaku use the Nine Tails. 



Dr. White said:


> Gated Gai is not that slow that he's getting blitzed...He is much more skilled and reactive enough to duke it out with Ei, combined with him also having wayyyyyyyy more range and DC.



...I'd have to be crazy to think that A can blitz Gated Gai. I just said that A should be higher because _his speed & strength don't rip his body to shreds._ I also don't know about Gai having more DC. AoE? Sure, but Gai's Hirudora didn't obliterate Kisame. A can chop Kisame in half.



Dr. White said:


> Depends on Knowledge and Location



Every match does, to an extent. Assuming manga/reputation and a Generic Stage like the War Arc battlefields....



Dr. White said:


> Vs Naruto



I suppose he may run out of senjutsu chakra, but while in Sage Mode, he can evade all of their long-range projectiles and reach them in the sky through cloneplay or summon footholds. All he needs to do is get close to put a Rasengan into their chest.



Dr. White said:


> Vs Jiraiya



Same as above, only he doesn't have to worry about running out of senjutsu, and he has more ways of dismantling a flying opponent than Naruto does. Whether or not he begins in Sage Mode is irrelevant; in your list it says "Sage Jiraiya."



Dr. White said:


> Vs Sasuke



If they stay close, they get dismembered by his speed and lighting spears. If they fly away, they burn. Amaterasu trolls _so_ hard.



Dr. White said:


> Vs B



If it's close, he Lariats them. The end. If it's far, he handles all of their ninjutsu with Samehada. Partial transformations give him added range to snag them if he jumps into the air after them. He also fought Fu, who could fly, and put a lighting sword in her blindspot. She needed shared-vision to evade. 



Dr. White said:


> Vs A



Anything close, and he cockblocks their flight. At a huge distance, I personally don't see how they'd even go about hitting him with his mega reflexes. He also may be able to reach them with a large Shunshin, but he outlasts either way.


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## OniNoOniiChan (Dec 17, 2015)

I think One-Rinne madara falls under the six paths characters
by far the lowest one but a lot stronger than top tiers
Hago said Indra and Ashura's chakra mixed in him and turned into Hago's chakra that awakened the Rinnegan


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## Santoryu (Dec 17, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> What do y'all think of my tier list overall?



It's not bad, but there are some placements I'd have to strongly disagree with:

Obito, Gai, Kakashi, and Gaara should be higher. Deidara isn't stronger than Gaara in my opinion, he's just a terrible matchup for him. After the masters' war exploits, there's no reason they shouldn't be hanging around characters like Bee.



> Karin Uzumaki
> 
> Gamabunta/Katsuyu/Manda
> Gamaken/Gamahiro
> Gamakichi/Aoda


Why on earth are these guys higher than Pein arc Kakashi, Kakuzu, and even Mei?


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## Turrin (Dec 19, 2015)

Rinnegan-Obito 
BM/KCM-Minato 
Spiral-Zetsu (w/ Yamato)

|
Naruto (After mastering KCM/BM, but before BSM) 
Sasuke (After Awakening P-Susnao'o, but before Hagoromo Power Ups) 
|

MS-Obito
Nagato 
Danzo
Kabuto (No Edo) 

|
Sasuke (In Process of Learning EMS) /Naruto (In Process of Learning KCM/BM)
|

Killer-B 
Minato 
Onoki 
Itachi 
Jiraiya 
Gengetsu 
Mu
Tobirama (No Edo) 

|
Naruto (After Mastering SM, but before KCM)
Sasuke (After Mastering MS, but before gaining EMS)
|

Sandaime-Raikage (No Jar)
Kakashi (During MS-Obito Fight) 
Sasori 
Orochimaru (Limited to P1-Edos) 
Tsunade [During Madara Fight]
Gaara (During the War, in Desert Area)

|
Sasuke (In Process of Learning MS)
Naruto (In Process of Learning Senjutsu) [Speculatively]
|

Yondaime-Kazekage
Ei
Kinkaku
Ginkaku
Yagura
Deidara
Kakuzu
Mei 
Hanzo (Edo)

|
Sasuke (Hebi)
Naruto (Post Wind-Arc, but Pre-Sennin Modo)
|


Each Grouping Represents a tier, but the order in that grouping is irrelevant. The | groupings | represents characters fluctuating between two tiers


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 19, 2015)

Turrin most of your list is pretty good and I'm okay with just a couple of things 


1. Orochimaru should be on the tier with Jiraiya, Itachi , Minato when you combine his pt 1 Edo Tensei/Hype and also his non hand seal abilities in pt 2 if you total that all up he should be on that tier 

2. Tsunade should be there as well considering her support performance against Madara and the fact that she other than Onoki was the most impressive of the Gokage and was right there with him as for who Madara was concerned about Onoki was the offensive star , while Tsunade was the support star and also when you consider byakugou hype thru Sakura 

Lets be real Kishimoto knew he fucked up the Sannin power structure when Jiraiya had Sage Mode and blew Oro and Tsu out of the water he made up for it with them in the war arc indicating that no matter what he wants to see them on the same level 


Are you talking about Naruto completely mastering SM like he did in the Kurama fight and in the war because if so I believe he was on that tier with Itachi/Jiraiya but if you're talking about limited Pain Arc Sage Mode then I agree 

Sasuke got really fucked over with his MS/EMS pre PS showings because it was no way to really indicate was he really that much weaker than Itachi or did he really not have much opportunity to display what he could do prior to PS


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## Turrin (Dec 19, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Turrin most of your list is pretty good and I'm okay with just a couple of things
> 
> 
> 1. Orochimaru should be on the tier with Jiraiya, Itachi , Minato when you combine his pt 1 Edo Tensei/Hype and also his non hand seal abilities in pt 2 if you total that all up he should be on that tier


Orochimaru is hard to rate, because his P1-Tensei are victims of Power-scaling, I.E. by PII Standards P1-Edo-Hokages aren't going to make a huge difference in battles between Ninja of Orochimaru's level. However I acknowledge the fact that if we apply PII powerscaling to Hiruzen vs Orochimaru's usage of Tensei may look much better, and make a much bigger impact. However there is no way to say for sure what Kishimoto is thinking there, much like it's hard to say how Kishimoto see's Hiruzen. That's why I intentionally limited Orochimaru to P1-Tensei feats, though maybe it would be better to just leave Edo-Tensei off in general.

Anyway outside of Edo-Tensei, I just don't think Orochimaru can compete with those in the tier above him. Jiraiya is only on that Tier due to SM and my belief that he will be able to/allowed to achieve it in more scenario's than not.



> Tsunade should be there as well considering her support performance against Madara and the fact that she other than Onoki was the most impressive of the Gokage and was right there with him as for who Madara was concerned about Onoki was the offensive star , while Tsunade was the support star and also when you consider byakugou hype thru Sakura


I don't think Tsunade did as much as Onoki. And I intentionally mitigated the Byakugo hype, by limiting Tsunade's Byakugo supplies to the amount she had in the War-Arc, versus the 2.5 Year to 3 Years supply Sakura had.

Though I wouldn't be opposed to someone putting Tsunade there for her support capabilities, if taking into consideration the amount of chakra she had stored in her seal in Pain-Arc or something, I just didn't want to go there.



> Lets be real Kishimoto knew he fucked up the Sannin power structure when Jiraiya had Sage Mode and blew Oro and Tsu out of the water he made up for it with them in the war arc indicating that no matter what he wants to see them on the same level


Nah dude let's really be real here. Kishi doesn't care about the Sannin being equal. SM-Jiraiya was way ahead of the pathetic shell Orochimaru became by PII, and Orochimaru if he was able to control the Tensei Hokages in battle, was way ahead of the deceased J-man as of the War-Arc.

Kishimoto needed to make use of the Sannin to move the plot in such a way that he could not keep them equals. He needed Jiraiya to be strong enough to step to Pain-Rikudo in a meaningful way, and than he needed Orochimaru Edo-Tensei to be strong enough to bring back the Hokages. These plot points became more important to Kishi than maintaining any equality between them. Just like Madara pulled way ahead of Hashirama, because again the plot necessitated that and that was more important than Kishi maintaining Madara's equality with Hashi.



> Are you talking about Naruto completely mastering SM like he did in the Kurama fight and in the war because if so I believe he was on that tier with Itachi/Jiraiya but if you're talking about limited Pain Arc Sage Mode then I agree


I'm talking about anything pre-KCM. And I think he fluctuates between those 2 Tiers, because of the time-limit he has in SM, and in general I think Naruto and Sasuke tend to fluctuate between 2 Tiers, because they get their power ups quickly, and have little time to spend gaining experience with them (And are under experienced themselves due to their rapid growth), and this makes it so they can easily underperform w/ these powers. Versus other Ninja who tend to stay at a similar level of power for years and gaining experience fighting at that level.



> Sasuke got really fucked over with his MS/EMS pre PS showings because it was no way to really indicate was he really that much weaker than Itachi or did he really not have much opportunity to display what he could do prior to PS


Sasuke w/ MS had the same power as Itachi, but he had less experience with it as his growth and time spent with that power amounted to a few weeks, while Itachi had years with MS. That's why to me MS-Sasuke at his best, performs around Itachi's level, while at his worst he performs much more poorly. Same thing when he just got EMS, he had a more powerful ability than Itachi's MS, but he had like a few hours or a day to gain experience with it before the Kabuto fight, and therefore at his worst he wasn't performing much better if at all than MS-Itachi (w/ some Edo Enhancements), while at his best I would have expected a much better performance from him, but the scenario and enemy were tailor suited to Itachi being the hero there, so we weren't going to get EMS-Sasuke's best performance, that overshadows Itachi, so instead we got one of his worst.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Dec 19, 2015)

> Orochimaru is hard to rate, because his P1-Tensei are victims of Power-scaling, I.E. by PII Standards P1-Edo-Hokages aren't going to make a huge difference in battles between Ninja of Orochimaru's level. However I acknowledge the fact that if we apply PII powerscaling to Hiruzen vs Orochimaru's usage of Tensei may look much better, and make a much bigger impact. However there is no way to say for sure what Kishimoto is thinking there, much like it's hard to say how Kishimoto see's Hiruzen. That's why I intentionally limited Orochimaru to P1-Tensei feats, though maybe it would be better to just leave Edo-Tensei off in general.



I see that from a purely feats based argument Orochimaru vs Hiruzen doesnt stack up to the astronomical shit we saw in the latter part of pt 2 but I look at what kishi was going for and that was to hype Orochimaru as an extremely powerful legendary Konoha ninja who could've ruled over the village like a Minato , like a Prime Hiruzen , Tobirama ect , even going as far to say Hiruzen/Anko thinking a Minato level shinobi would be good to deal with this threat level , his genius mirroring Sasuke and having that connection and serving a very important part in Sasuke's path , having the data score total being very close to Itachi/Jiraiya , having a ninja of Jiraiya's capabilities have difficulty in brining him back to the village , Hiruzen's overall respect level , shit Minato and Sasuke's respect level , kakashi shitting his pants and also how he saw Jiraiya after Pain battle, Orochimaru spent his life trying to swap bodies and not go all out trying to murder people in 1 on 1 bouts , or protect a village so we never saw him go all out in those scenarios then when you add in his War feats and even further throwing his son along with Sasuke and Naruto's kids in the Gaiden I think Kishi wants us to see Orochimaru as one of the big boys before we get to the freaks like Nagato,Madara,Hashirama.



> Anyway outside of Edo-Tensei, I just don't think Orochimaru can compete with those in the tier above him. Jiraiya is only on that Tier due to SM and my belief that he will be able to/allowed to achieve it in more scenario's than not.



How many people can dance with 4KN on their deathbed without the use of hand seals , how many people would it take Itachi's strongest technique shown to date to defeat him shit even if you look at Kabuto doesn't he represent that Orochimaru and Jiraiya's main techniques are both very lethal 




> I don't think Tsunade did as much as Onoki. And I intentionally mitigated the Byakugo hype, by limiting Tsunade's Byakugo supplies to the amount she had in the War-Arc, versus the 2.5 Year to 3 Years supply Sakura had.



Her medical prowess allowed the Gokage to survive the battle , Tsunade along with Onoki were the two out of the 5 Madara showed the most interest in and was the most weary of 




> Though I wouldn't be opposed to someone putting Tsunade there for her support capabilities, if taking into consideration the amount of chakra she had stored in her seal in Pain-Arc or something, I just didn't want to go there.



ok




> Nah dude let's really be real here. Kishi doesn't care about the Sannin being equal. SM-Jiraiya was way ahead of the pathetic shell Orochimaru became by PII, and Orochimaru if he was able to control the Tensei Hokages in battle, was way ahead of the deceased J-man as of the War-Arc.
> 
> Kishimoto needed to make use of the Sannin to move the plot in such a way that he could not keep them equals. He needed Jiraiya to be strong enough to step to Pain-Rikudo in a meaningful way, and than he needed Orochimaru Edo-Tensei to be strong enough to bring back the Hokages. These plot points became more important to Kishi than maintaining any equality between them. Just like Madara pulled way ahead of Hashirama, because again the plot necessitated that and that was more important than Kishi maintaining Madara's equality with Hashi.



Thats the point the Sannin all served very important , vital purpose to the plot and them serving as role models , foils , gauges , teachers for the MC's they all have to be shown in a very powerful light it was just Jiraiya is thee main characters role model so his parallels will always be a little stronger than Sasuke's or Sakura's Hashirama>Madara, Minato>Itachi shit even at the end of the war he kept that Sannin connection alive with Sakura finally surpassing Tsunade and catching up to Sasuke and Naruto before the shit jumped the shark , there would never be a time I believe that a Sannin would flat out embarrass or destroy another Sannin on panel think about it Jiraiya wasn't brought back because he knew he did him justice and he lived up to or beyond his reputation while it is true that Orochimaru was just there as an Edo-Tensei user to bring the Hokage back it was still to let you know Jiraiya performance was great but Orochimaru is still capable of extraordinary things and I think thats what the Sannin represent just extraordinary ninja who are capable of performing very powerful game changing ninjutsu I'm not looking at who did what in each battle just look at how talented each are in a vacuum I do agree Jiraiya will always get the better treatment because of Naruto but the other two aren't that far behind to be on a lower tier because at any given moment they'll pull more shit out to catch up.



> I'm talking about anything pre-KCM. And I think he fluctuates between those 2 Tiers, because of the time-limit he has in SM, and in general I think Naruto and Sasuke tend to fluctuate between 2 Tiers, because they get their power ups quickly, and have little time to spend gaining experience with them (And are under experienced themselves due to their rapid growth), and this makes it so they can easily underperform w/ these powers. Versus other Ninja who tend to stay at a similar level of power for years and gaining experience fighting at that level.



I agree with that somewhat but if we're talking about what Naruto did against Kurama , or what Naruto did against the 3rd Raikage that can easily match or in some instances outweigh what Onoki,Jiraiya,Itachi can do 




> Sasuke w/ MS had the same power as Itachi, but he had less experience with it as his growth and time spent with that power amounted to a few weeks, while Itachi had years with MS. That's why to me MS-Sasuke at his best, performs around Itachi's level, while at his worst he performs much more poorly. Same thing when he just got EMS, he had a more powerful ability than Itachi's MS, but he had like a few hours or a day to gain experience with it before the Kabuto fight, and therefore at his worst he wasn't performing much better if at all than MS-Itachi (w/ some Edo Enhancements), while at his best I would have expected a much better performance from him, but the scenario and enemy were tailor suited to Itachi being the hero there, so we weren't going to get EMS-Sasuke's best performance, that overshadows Itachi, so instead we got one of his worst.



I dont think he performed much more poorly its just that he was at an extreme disadvantage compared to Itachi , Sasuke was thrusted into battle against Kage level ninjas with zero knowledge , Itachi often fought individuals with help(Nagato,Kabuto,Uchiha Massacre) or opponents he was much stronger than (Deidara,Hebi Sasuke), Itachi was able to fight more confidently because he had an Edo-Tensei body and used it to his advantage and he also had prior knowledge of Edo-Tensei and Sage Mode


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## Turrin (Dec 19, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> I see that from a purely feats based argument Orochimaru vs Hiruzen doesnt stack up to the astronomical shit we saw in the latter part of pt 2 but I look at what kishi was going for


I agree, back in the Chunin Exams Orochimaru vs Hiruzen was suppose to be seen as some top-tier shit. Hiruzen while weakened with age, was still the strongest of the 5 Kages, and Orochimaru was strong enough to command 2 Kages to fight alongside him, and potentially unbeatable outside another Sannin. 

However it does seem like what Kishimoto was going for back then, was forgotten and is not at all what he was going for by the end of the manga. Hiruzen's God of Shinobi and Stronges Hokage title seems heavily implied to have been stripped from him and given to Hashirama. Rather than Old-Hiruzen, Onoki seems to stand tall as the strongest Gokage, and even after being brought back as Tensei, Kishimoto didn't really go out of his way to justify Old-Hiruzen as stronger than Onoki or any of Hiruzen's hype, sans his title as professor. And when Edo-Tobirama/Hashirama come back what we get isn't a part II scaling of them, but rather an explanation that Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei sucked back in PI and the Tensei sucked, because of that.



> How many people can dance with 4KN on their deathbed without the use of hand seals , how many people would it take Itachi's strongest technique shown to date to defeat him shit even if you look at Kabuto doesn't he represent that Orochimaru and Jiraiya's main techniques are both very lethal


Orochimaru was ineffectual against KN4 and had to stop fighting completely once body failure kicked in, so saying he fought KN4 on his death bed is a pretty big exaggeration. As far as who could dance with KN4 for how long Orochimaru did w/o hand-seals, well I tend to think all the Shinobi I listed in Orochimaru's Tier could likely do it

I mean all KN4 did to Orochimaru is hit him with chakra arm attacks and 1 TBB, before the fight ended. I'm not going to even go into chakra arms as I feel it goes w/o saying that all of these shinobi could survive that. TBB is going to be toughest thing.

Sandaime-Raikage I believe can tank it and survive if he survive FRS, which he had the elemental disadvantage too

Tsunade I believe can survive with Katsuya and Byakugo, if she managed to survive Madara

I think Gaara's Ultimate Defense in a desert area is beyond Sanju Roshomon and will therefore allow him to survive

Kakashi will survive with Kamui

Sasori being the only one I can see loosing, but with heart swap he could still pull it off.



> Her medical prowess allowed the Gokage to survive the battle , Tsunade along with Onoki were the two out of the 5 Madara showed the most interest in and was the most weary of


Sure, but to me their displays still weren't equal; Onoki still did more as far as i'm concerned. Though I think Tsunade was clearly the second most impactful



> Thats the point the Sannin all served very important , vital purpose to the plot and them serving as role models , foils , gauges , teachers for the MC's they all have to be shown in a very powerful light it was just Jiraiya is thee main characters role model so his parallels will always be a little stronger than Sasuke's or Sakura's Hashirama>Madara, Minato>Itachi shit even at the end of the war he kept that Sannin connection alive with Sakura finally surpassing Tsunade and catching up to Sasuke and Naruto before the shit jumped the shark , there would never be a time I believe that a Sannin would flat out embarrass or destroy another Sannin on panel think about it Jiraiya wasn't brought back because he knew he did him justice and he lived up to or beyond his reputation while it is true that Orochimaru was just there as an Edo-Tensei user to bring the Hokage back it was still to let you know Jiraiya performance was great but Orochimaru is still capable of extraordinary things and I think thats what the Sannin represent just extraordinary ninja who are capable of performing very powerful game changing ninjutsu I'm not looking at who did what in each battle just look at how talented each are in a vacuum I do agree Jiraiya will always get the better treatment because of Naruto but the other two aren't that far behind to be on a lower tier because at any given moment they'll pull more shit out to catch up.


I disagree. Naruto flat out embarrassed Sasuke in the Gaara fight and on the rough top battle. Sasuke flat out embarrassed Naruto at the end of the Penis arc. Madara flat out embarrassed Hashirama, during the end of the war-arc.  In the Naruto/Sasuke rivalry's we see instances all the time throughout the manga where one is drastically ahead of the other. 

I agree that the Sannin collectively are suppose to be seen as amazing ninja and a legendary team, and that's something Kishimoto wished to keep alive throughout the story, but he did not endeavor to keep the Sannin equal at all times throughout the story. 

There is no way Rusty Tsunade was equal to Jiriaya at the start of the Sannin Arc. Or armeless/bodyfailure Orochimaru was equal to Jiriaya throughout the first few arcs of PII. Or Tsunade  w/ 1 Month of Byakugo was equal to Orochimaru w/ Edo Hokages. And so on.



> I agree with that somewhat but if we're talking about what Naruto did against Kurama , or what Naruto did against the 3rd Raikage that can easily match or in some instances outweigh what Onoki,Jiraiya,Itachi can do


That's what I mean by at his best. Naruto in those instances was at his best, due to circumstance. Against Kurama he had guidance leading up to and throughout the battle from more experienced shinobi and than had help achieving SM. Similar thing happened in the Sandaime-Raikage battle.

Remove Dodai, B, Kushina, etc... in those instances, and the conditions would no longer be conducive to  Naruto performing his best.



> I dont think he performed much more poorly its just that he was at an extreme disadvantage compared to Itachi , Sasuke was thrusted into battle against Kage level ninjas with zero knowledge , Itachi often fought individuals with help(Nagato,Kabuto,Uchiha Massacre) or opponents he was much stronger than (Deidara,Hebi Sasuke), Itachi was able to fight more confidently because he had an Edo-Tensei body and used it to his advantage and he also had prior knowledge of Edo-Tensei and Sage Mode


After MS Sasuke fought B, but he fought B in stages. He got his shit pushed in by Base-B's Kenjutsu, because he underestimated B &/or overestimated himself, and was caught off guard by B's superior Kenjutsu. Than got wrecked by HB3-B again because he underestimated B's ability to break his Illusion. Itachi went up against that same B and was able to handle B's Kenjutsu and B breaking free of his illusion w/o issue. I don't think this is because MS-Sasuke couldn't handle these things with his powers at this time, but again his lack of experience with those powers in comparison to Itachi's brought about his downfall. That's merely one example though, another would be Sasuke nearly dying at the summit due to underestimating his enemies and the overly aggressive approach he took, while we can compare this to Itachi's calm and calculated approach in dealing with his enemies.

And as far as fighting strong opponents goes, Itachi beat Orochimaru, whose certainly stronger than most of the enemies MS-Sasuke faced, except maybe Danzo, but against Danzo, at least in the mid to latter half of the battle Sasuke started performing much better as the plot kind of willed him into taking a more cerebral approach.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> However it does seem like what Kishimoto was going for back then, was forgotten and is not at all what he was going for by the end of the manga. Hiruzen's God of Shinobi and Stronges Hokage title seems heavily implied to have been stripped from him and given to Hashirama. Rather than Old-Hiruzen, Onoki seems to stand tall as the strongest Gokage, and even after being brought back as Tensei, Kishimoto didn't really go out of his way to justify Old-Hiruzen as stronger than Onoki or any of Hiruzen's hype, sans his title as professor. And when Edo-Tobirama/Hashirama come back what we get isn't a part II scaling of them, but rather an explanation that Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei sucked back in PI and the Tensei sucked, because of that.



Onoki didn't seem to stand above Hiruzen if you really look at it 

Shiki Fujin is still OP as fuck and if resorted to could do damage to many a shinobi in the Narutoverse but I wont get into the one vs one aspect because I pay more attention to what the plot is telling us 

Hiruzen outperformed Onoki against the Buddha 

Kishimoto went out of his way to say Edo Kages are changing the tides of this war and thats when the enemies started to get exponentially stronger 

Hiruzen was apart of the team that was fighting an enemy that was much stronger than Rinnegan Madara while Onoki was nowhere to be found 

I see his GOS title being stripped and given to Hashirama no doubt but him being stronger than the Gokage still stands in my opinion 

shit Danzo who is stronger than all of them still marveled at Hiruzen's brilliance at his death 

As for Edo -Tensei being implied to suck off course it did compared to part 2 but that was rectified anyway thru Kabuto and Orochimaru in the war arc 



> Orochimaru was ineffectual against KN4 and had to stop fighting completely once body failure kicked in, so saying he fought KN4 on his death bed is a pretty big exaggeration. As far as who could dance with KN4 for how long Orochimaru did w/o hand-seals, well I tend to think all the Shinobi I listed in Orochimaru's Tier could likely do it



Its obvious they were close in power despite Orochimaru in a failing body not doing much but defending himself and toying with it 



> I mean all KN4 did to Orochimaru is hit him with chakra arm attacks and 1 TBB, before the fight ended. I'm not going to even go into chakra arms as I feel it goes w/o saying that all of these shinobi could survive that. TBB is going to be toughest thing.



most shinobi shit Jiraiya almost died 



> Sandaime-Raikage I believe can tank it and survive if he survive FRS, which he had the elemental disadvantage too
> 
> Tsunade I believe can survive with Katsuya and Byakugo, if she managed to survive Madara



True but their on that level 



> I think Gaara's Ultimate Defense in a desert area is beyond Sanju Roshomon and will therefore allow him to survive



we're talking on his deathbed unable to perform seals 



> Kakashi will survive with Kamui



Kakashi gets blitzed 

Sasori being the only one I can see loosing, but with heart swap he could still pull it off.







> I disagree. Naruto flat out embarrassed Sasuke in the Gaara fight and on the rough top battle. Sasuke flat out embarrassed Naruto at the end of the Penis arc. Madara flat out embarrassed Hashirama, during the end of the war-arc.  In the Naruto/Sasuke rivalry's we see instances all the time throughout the manga where one is drastically ahead of the other.



Thats my point is that despite one outclassing the other their counterpart always catches up next time on panel to close the gap or display an awesome new ability 



> I agree that the Sannin collectively are suppose to be seen as amazing ninja and a legendary team, and that's something Kishimoto wished to keep alive throughout the story, but he did not endeavor to keep the Sannin equal at all times throughout the story.



off course their not equal throughout the story but by the end of the manga all of their abilities have been equally impressive 

Orochimaru shitted on them in pt 1 

Jiriaya shows Sage Mode he's ahead 

Orochimaru summons 4 Hokage he's ahead 

Tsunade gets hype thru Sakura now she catches up 



> There is no way Rusty Tsunade was equal to Jiriaya at the start of the Sannin Arc. Or armeless/bodyfailure Orochimaru was equal to Jiriaya throughout the first few arcs of PII. Or Tsunade  w/ 1 Month of Byakugo was equal to Orochimaru w/ Edo Hokages. And so on.



But when they fought against each other were they not all handicapped that was an instance where one could've pushed way ahead of the other to show extreme superiority but Kishi chose not to do it , he didn't have to have Orochimaru and Tsunade do impressive shit in the War Arc couldve just left Jiraiya ahead or shit bring Jiraiya back as an Edo to even stretch the gap further but nope he knew Jiraiya earned his legendary sannin hype against Pain. 



> That's what I mean by at his best. Naruto in those instances was at his best, due to circumstance. Against Kurama he had guidance leading up to and throughout the battle from more experienced shinobi and than had help achieving SM. Similar thing happened in the Sandaime-Raikage battle.
> 
> Remove Dodai, B, Kushina, etc... in those instances, and the conditions would no longer be conducive to  Naruto performing his best.



Thats not fair because do you penalize Bee for losing to Kisame or getting humiliated by Rinnegan , do you penalize Minato for receiving help from the village and Kushina against Kurama or Itachi for getting help against Nagato/Kabuto matter of fact Naruto's only low point post Pain Arc was against Nagato and that was because his chakra was spread throughout the battlefield and well its Nagato who would terrorize everyone on that tier including Killer Bee who you have at that tier.



> After MS Sasuke fought B, but he fought B in stages. He got his shit pushed in by Base-B's Kenjutsu, because he underestimated B &/or overestimated himself, and was caught off guard by B's superior Kenjutsu. Than got wrecked by HB3-B again because he underestimated B's ability to break his Illusion. Itachi went up against that same B and was able to handle B's Kenjutsu and B breaking free of his illusion w/o issue. I don't think this is because MS-Sasuke couldn't handle these things with his powers at this time, but again his lack of experience with those powers in comparison to Itachi's brought about his downfall. That's merely one example though, another would be Sasuke nearly dying at the summit due to underestimating his enemies and the overly aggressive approach he took, while we can compare this to Itachi's calm and calculated approach in dealing with his enemies.



Sasuke was more disadvantaged again being tired and already worn out from his battle with Itachi , besides CQC was something Itachi was just superior at to Sasuke until the latter parts of the manga , Gaiden as for the Summit he was thrusted into battle with no prep, knowledge w/o his MS developed I say he did pretty well for himself under those circumstances and I dont see Itachi being more effective in that same scenario 



> And as far as fighting strong opponents goes, Itachi beat Orochimaru, whose certainly stronger than most of the enemies MS-Sasuke faced, except maybe Danzo, but against Danzo, at least in the mid to latter half of the battle Sasuke started performing much better as the plot kind of willed him into taking a more cerebral approach.



Orochimaru who cant use Jutsu in a failing body is stronger than Bee ?

Thats what I'm mainly talking about once MS was mastered he was close to Itachi in power just didn't get any opportunity to indulge pre-PS

off topic I also just noticed you had Deidara a tier above Hebi Sasuke and Kakuzu a tier above FRS Naruto I think they should all be in the same tier , Ei sucks but he's not the weak


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 20, 2015)

My list overall


Naruto(BM)
Sasuke(PS)
Minato(BM)
Orochimaru(War)
Kabuto(Edo)


Nagato
Kabuto(SM)
Danzo

Obito(MS)
Minato
Nagato(Pain)
Itachi
Jiraiya
Orochimaru(PT 1)
Tsunade
Onoki
Killer Bee
Tobirama
Trollkage
Muu
Sandaime Raikage 
Sakura
Naruto(SM)
Sasuke(MS)



Gaara
Mei
Ei
Rasa
Kakashi
Sasori
Kisame
Gai
Konan(?)

Hebi Sasuke
Deidara
Naruto(FRS)
Orochimaru(PT II)
Darui


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## Turrin (Dec 20, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Onoki didn't seem to stand above Hiruzen if you really look at it
> 
> Shiki Fujin is still OP as fuck and if resorted to could do damage to many a shinobi in the Narutoverse but I wont get into the one vs one aspect because I pay more attention to what the plot is telling us
> 
> ...


Firstly Hiruzen honestly didn't do much, he countered 1 attack from the Buddha on panel and that's it. Same thing against the Juubito; he helped with the barrier, threw some shuriken, and beat back a few branches of the Shinju Tree with Enma. 

As far as Onoki's performance goes; Onoki was exhausted from his previous fight in the war and never returned to 100%.

So I really do not think Kishimoto did enough to justify Hiruzen title as Strongest Gokage there, or even enough for Hiruzen to look better than what Onoki accomplished against Edo-Madara.



> shit Danzo who is stronger than all of them still marveled at Hiruzen's brilliance at his death


Danzo didn't marvel at Hiruzen's strength, he realized Hiruzen was always a step ahead of him in a metaphorical sense.



> As for Edo -Tensei being implied to suck off course it did compared to part 2 but that was rectified anyway thru Kabuto and Orochimaru in the war arc


Were talking about Orochimaru limited to P1 Edos though, so my point stands.



> Its obvious they were close in power despite Orochimaru in a failing body not doing much but defending himself and toying with it


My point was not directed towards a healthy Orochimaru's standings with KN4, my point was Orochimaru did not fight KN4 on his death bed. The moment his body began to fail, he fled the match.



> most shinobi shit Jiraiya almost died


You mean a Base-Jiraiya that was intentionally trying to save rather than kill his pupil



> we're talking on his deathbed unable to perform seals


Orochimaru was not on his deathbed so no were not. Gaara w/o seals can still use his ultimate defense just fine, so yes



> Kakashi gets blitzed


Yet did not get blitz'd by V2 Jinchuuriki in the war. Fuck Orochimaru didn't get blitz'd and he has the same speed stat as Kakashi, and doesn't have Sharingan. 



> Thats my point is that despite one outclassing the other their counterpart always catches up next time on panel to close the gap or display an awesome new ability


Than your admitting they are not always equal, which is my point.



> off course their not equal throughout the story but by the end of the manga all of their abilities have been equally impressive


But their not. Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei by the end of the manga (if he can control them) is way more impressive than anything Jiraiya and Tsunade can managed by a mile. If he can't control them then Jiraiya's Sennin Modo is the most impressive, than anything Orochimaru has. 



> Thats not fair because do you penalize Bee for losing to Kisame or getting humiliated by Rinnegan.


B isn't penalized because he was in a disadvantageous position, having to save Sabo/Ponta, not being able to use Hachibi Form, and Kisame being his worst nightmare match up wise. That's entirely different than concept I'm outlining with Naruto & Sasuke.



> do you penalize Minato for receiving help from the village and Kushina against Kurama or Itachi for getting help against Nagato/Kabuto matter of fact


I obviously do penalize them for that. Which is why Itachi is not on the same tier as Nagato and Kabuto. Minato isn't on the same tier as someone who can wield the full power of Kurama.



> Naruto's only low point post Pain Arc was against Nagato and that was because his chakra was spread throughout the battlefield and well its Nagato who would terrorize everyone on that tier including Killer Bee who you have at that tier.


Firstly I put Naruto post-KCM between the Killer-B tier and the Nagato tier, so he's rate roughly on par w/ B or higher, at that point, so I don't see what your complaint is there.

Secondly your missing the point i'm making with this anyway. Again what i'm saying is Sasuke and Naruto end up fluctuating between tiers, because they will frequently achieve powers that are rightfully next tier shit, but due to their in experience will frequently underperform in various situations. A lack of experience born from the speed at which they develop these powers and the speed of their growth as ninja. And there are absolutely examples of this from the Kages-Arc and War-Arc. Naruto having a Shunshin that's by all rights faster than Max Speed Ei, but his performance with it being highly inconsistent, with him fucking it up against Kisame and BZ. Him immediately forgetting Nagato's HG Realm can counter Ninjutsu. His attempt to use TBB against Sandaime-Raikage, and failing. And so on. This is all stuff born of lack of experience.



> Sasuke was more disadvantaged again being tired and already worn out from his battle with Itachi , besides CQC was something Itachi was just superior at to Sasuke until the latter parts of the manga , Gaiden as for the Summit he was thrusted into battle with no prep


Okay just stop for a minute. Sasuke being inferior to Itachi in Taijutsu and weakened, isn't the reason Sasuke was nigh killed by B twice. Sasuke even with those disadvantages has the Jutsu to handle B-Base w.o being wrecked; fuck we saw Sasuke handle an attack from HB3 B w/o being wrecked. The reason Sasuke was wrecked there was a lack of experience, causing him to underestimate B. He was caught off guard by B's ability to counter Chidori Blade and B's ability to shrug off his MS Genjutsu. If he wasn't he wouldn't have lost that badly. Same thing with the stuff I outlined in the Kage summit. 



> , knowledge w/o his MS developed I say he did pretty well for himself under those circumstances and I dont see Itachi being more effective in that same scenario


W/o his MS developed is my whole point. He had a power that was on the next level, but was still inexperienced with it. 



> Orochimaru who cant use Jutsu in a failing body is stronger than Bee ?


Base-B and HB3-B absolutely.

Full Hachibi no, but it wouldn't have gotten that far w/o Taka there.



> Thats what I'm mainly talking about once MS was mastered he was close to Itachi in power just didn't get any opportunity to indulge pre-PS
> 
> off topic I also just noticed you had Deidara a tier above Hebi Sasuke and Kakuzu a tier above FRS Naruto I think they should all be in the same tier


I'm starting to think you don't understand my list. 

When I have Sasuke and Naruto in between tiers with the |  symbol |, it means they can perform as well as the those in the upper tier or perform much worse, depending on how their experience is quantified by the plot. 

For example Naruto's lack of experience cause him to act like a dingus against Nagato, forgetting HG-Realm ability and loosing his cool against CT; however in other instances he's calmly come up with excellent strategies to use his moves to counter the enemy, like against Kakuzu or some of the Pain Realms.

So yes I agree Sasuke can perform as well as MS-Itachi, some of the time, but other times he won't due to his lack of experience. 

Same thing with Hebi-Sasuke and Post-Wind Naruto, in comparison to Kakuzu and Deidara. If they are at the top of their game, they are around the level of those 2 give or take a bit, but if they let their in experience take hold they can perform worse than them.



> , Ei sucks but he's not the weak


I don't think the tier Ei is on is a weak one.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Dec 20, 2015)

> Firstly Hiruzen honestly didn't do much, he countered 1 attack from the Buddha on panel and that's it. Same thing against the Juubito; he helped with the barrier, threw some shuriken, and beat back a few branches of the Shinju Tree with Enma.



Thats all he was required to do. pretty much his position has been one that is doing much that is required or in situations where really many people couldn't have done much better like against Kurama or Juubito , to my knowledge hashirama didn't do much against Juubito either ,

but I took it as Hiruzen, Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama were the Gokage fight pt 2 only against a much stronger opponent 



> As far as Onoki's performance goes; Onoki was exhausted from his previous fight in the war and never returned to 100%.



Kakashi had been fighting just as long as Onoki had and was still able to muster up the chakra to fight on once the enemies got stronger 



> So I really do not think Kishimoto did enough to justify Hiruzen title as Strongest Gokage there, or even enough for Hiruzen to look better than what Onoki accomplished against Edo-Madara


.

You mean Hiruzen wasn't placed in  scenario's where he couldnt properly display his strength because his opponents needed to either be sealed or where just way out his league 




> Danzo didn't marvel at Hiruzen's strength, he realized Hiruzen was always a step ahead of him in a metaphorical sense.



Thats symbolic Danzo , step ahead refers to being a better shinobi in all regards even in his flashback is was duly noted that Hiruzen was stronger than him and his eyes it never changed 



> Were talking about Orochimaru limited to P1 Edos though, so my point stands.



This is how it is 

Kishimoto wants you to think Edo Tensei is a powerful jutsu in pt 1 but then in pt 2 power scaling makes it look like shit so that is rectified in the war he's letting you know he didn't forget about the PT 1 hype in that battle 



> My point was not directed towards a healthy Orochimaru's standings with KN4, my point was Orochimaru did not fight KN4 on his death bed. The moment his body began to fail, he fled the match.



His body was failing throughout pt 2 because it was time for him to transfer bodies after the 3 yr period so even in the fight he was in a weakened state and he didn't flee Yamato stopped Naruto from rampaging further 



> You mean a Base-Jiraiya that was intentionally trying to save rather than kill his pupil



How do we know it was Jiraiya in base , and shouldn't it be fair if Orochimaru cant use any hand seals that Jiraiya cant use Sage Mode ?




> Orochimaru was not on his deathbed so no were not. Gaara w/o seals can still use his ultimate defense just fine, so yes



It can be penetrated with brute force and extreme speeds 





> Yet did not get blitz'd by V2 Jinchuuriki in the war. Fuck Orochimaru didn't get blitz'd and he has the same speed stat as Kakashi, and doesn't have Sharingan.



Even with that don't you think its unfair for Kakashi to be able to use Kamui yet orochimaru couldn't use his best jutsu 





T





> han your admitting they are not always equal, which is my point.



of course their not always equal but they always catch up to each other the next time their on panel and when they have interacted/fought against each other neither was able to dominate the other




> But their not. Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei by the end of the manga (if he can control them) is way more impressive than anything Jiraiya and Tsunade can managed by a mile. If he can't control them then Jiraiya's Sennin Modo is the most impressive, than anything Orochimaru has.



Right because Orochimaru is more current which is my point if Jiraiya was resurrected his Sage Mode would show even more hax than it did against Pain but all in all you cant deny that if you add up everything from start to finish all of the Sannin should be on the high kage tier minimum 



> B isn't penalized because he was in a disadvantageous position, having to save Sabo/Ponta, not being able to use Hachibi Form, and Kisame being his worst nightmare match up wise. That's entirely different than concept I'm outlining with Naruto & Sasuke.



Like I said above when Naruto and Sasuke underperformed they were also in a disadvantageous position , but what about Bee vs Nagato didn't he underperform as well.



> I obviously do penalize them for that. Which is why Itachi is not on the same tier as Nagato and Kabuto. Minato isn't on the same tier as someone who can wield the full power of Kurama.



ok



> Firstly I put Naruto post-KCM between the Killer-B tier and the Nagato tier, so he's rate roughly on par w/ B or higher, at that point, so I don't see what your complaint is there.



I see but didn't SM perform up to par with KCM pre Bijuu Mode in the war I think it should be SM/KCM on that tier and the Pain Arc Sage Mode should be below them .




> Secondly your missing the point i'm making with this anyway. Again what i'm saying is Sasuke and Naruto end up fluctuating between tiers, because they will frequently achieve powers that are rightfully next tier shit, but due to their in experience will frequently underperform in various situations. A lack of experience born from the speed at which they develop these powers and the speed of their growth as ninja. And there are absolutely examples of this from the Kages-Arc and War-Arc. Naruto having a Shunshin that's by all rights faster than Max Speed Ei, but his performance with it being highly inconsistent, with him fucking it up against Kisame and BZ. Him immediately forgetting Nagato's HG Realm can counter Ninjutsu. His attempt to use TBB against Sandaime-Raikage, and failing. And so on. This is all stuff born of lack of experience.



Naruto didn't master that shunshin until after his encounter with Ei as for his fight against Nagato to me it was a lot of plot induced ass pulls in that fight to push Itachi in the forefront so I wont excuse him from that and in that very same fight he rectified it by eventually defeating Raikage anyway , only one blip against HG realm doesnt equate to him underperforming consistently throughout the manga or especially post pain-arc 









> W/o his MS developed is my whole point. He had a power that was on the next level, but was still inexperienced with it.



are you saying Sasuke w/o MS developed is below Itachi or are we talking even with MS developed like at the end of the Danzo fight still being below Itachi by a tier  



> Base-B and HB3-B absolutely.




Full Hachibi no, but it wouldn't have gotten that far w/o Taka there.


I'm starting to think you don't understand my list. 

When I have Sasuke and Naruto in between tiers with the |  symbol |, it means they can perform as well as the those in the upper tier or perform much worse, depending on how their experience is quantified by the plot. 



> For example Naruto's lack of experience cause him to act like a dingus against Nagato, forgetting HG-Realm ability and loosing his cool against CT; however in other instances he's calmly come up with excellent strategies to use his moves to counter the enemy, like against Kakuzu or some of the Pain Realms.
> 
> So yes I agree Sasuke can perform as well as MS-Itachi, some of the time, but other times he won't due to his lack of experience.



That wasn't lack of experience that was plot , as for sasuke we only saw him against Danzo which was a great performance than again against Kabuto where Itachi had knowledge and the fortunes of an Edo-Tensei body and even then Sasuke protected Itachi at times in the battle as well 




> Same thing with Hebi-Sasuke and Post-Wind Naruto, in comparison to Kakuzu and Deidara. If they are at the top of their game, they are around the level of those 2 give or take a bit, but if they let their in experience take hold they can perform worse than them.



Do you see Hebi-Sauce getting fodderized by Sai, Omio, Kankuro , Deidara himself is an idiot who underperforms 



> I don't think the tier Ei is on is a weak one.



Its below the standard of a true Kage level ninja


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## Turrin (Dec 21, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Thats all he was required to do. pretty much his position has been one that is doing much that is required or in situations where really many people couldn't have done much better like against Kurama or Juubito , to my knowledge hashirama didn't do much against Juubito either ,


You can come up with reasons for why he didn't do more, but that still doesn't change the fact that his showings were not enough to support the idea that Kishimoto still believes Old-Hiruzen is the strongest Gokage.



> ut I took it as Hiruzen, Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama were the Gokage fight pt 2 only against a much stronger opponent


Old-Hiruzen doesn't need to be the strongest Gokage for the Hokages to be collectively > Gokage.



> Kakashi had been fighting just as long as Onoki had and was still able to muster up the chakra to fight on once the enemies got stronger


Kakashi was restored multiple times by Kurama's chakra, while Onoki was not. 



> Thats symbolic Danzo , step ahead refers to being a better shinobi in all regards even in his flashback is was duly noted that Hiruzen was stronger than him and his eyes it never changed


Danzo probably considered Hiruzen superior to him, because stripping away the powers Danzo stole Hiruzen was superior. But I doubt Hiruzen was superior to Danzo w/ 10 Sharingan, Shisui's Eye, and Senju Hashirama's DNA. However if he indeed was, and that's a huge if, were undoubtably talking about Prime-Hiruzen at that point, which is irrelevant to this discussion, which is about Old-Hiruzen's strength.



> Kishimoto wants you to think Edo Tensei is a powerful jutsu in pt 1 but then in pt 2 power scaling makes it look like shit so that is rectified in the war he's letting you know he didn't forget about the PT 1 hype in that battle


Nope, because Kishimoto intentionally has Tobirama say the reason the Tensei sucked in P1 was because Orochimaru's skill w/ Edo-Tensei wasn't as good as his PII Skill. So again, since were talking about an Orochimaru limited to his P1-Skill w/ Edo-Tensei, any points about his PII skill are moot.



> His body was failing throughout pt 2 because it was time for him to transfer bodies after the 3 yr period so even in the fight he was in a weakened state and he didn't flee Yamato stopped Naruto from rampaging further


He literally used Oral Rebirth to get away from KN4, and said that it's a shame he had to end the battle. So yes, at the moment his body failed he planned to stop fighting KN4.



> How do we know it was Jiraiya in base ,


Because he was in Base in the flashback to that battle. 



> and shouldn't it be fair if Orochimaru cant use any hand seals that Jiraiya cant use Sage Mode ?


Unless your saying Orochimaru's hand-seals are equivalent to SM, which is a joke to me to be perfectly honest, than no it's not fair.



> It can be penetrated with brute force and extreme speeds


Gaara in a desert area defended C3's explosion and aided Onoki in stopping one of Madara's meteors. KN4's got nothing to that extent



> Even with that don't you think its unfair for Kakashi to be able to use Kamui yet orochimaru couldn't use his best jutsu


Orochimaru's best Jutsu at the time was Yamata no Orochi, which he indeed could use despite missing his arms. He didn't need to use it against KN4, but than again Kakashi didn't need to use Kamui when he fought the V2 Jins ether. So Yeah. 



> of course their not always equal but they always catch up to each other the next time their on panel and when they have interacted/fought against each other neither was able to dominate the other


Okay cool, let's go with that then. Considering Orochimaru did not interact or face Jiriaya ever again in PII, nothing necessitates them being equal during any part of Part II. 



> Right because Orochimaru is more current which is my point if Jiraiya was resurrected his Sage Mode would show even more hax than it did against Pain but all in all you cant deny that if you add up everything from start to finish all of the Sannin should be on the high kage tier minimum


I absolute can deny that. Again if Orochimaru could control those Tensei, he absolutely was much higher than High-Kage and the other two Sannin. He was close to pushing God-Tier for fucks sake, and could easily rape both Sannin at once; and Orochimaru is probably even stronger in Boruto time-line. So again your forced equivalency of the sannin does not hold up. There are times when they are clearly no equal, and therefore saying 1 incarnation of Orochimaru is a tier bellow 1 incarnation of Jiraiya is completely legit



> Like I said above when Naruto and Sasuke underperformed they were also in a disadvantageous position ,


No they aren't. Naruto was not in a disadvantageous position against Kisame when he fucked his Shunshin up. Sasuke was not in a disadvantageous position against Base-B or HB3-B 4v1. etc... They fucked up because of their in experience, not any disadvantages, plain and simple.



> but what about Bee vs Nagato didn't he underperform as well.


In what way? 



> I see but didn't SM perform up to par with KCM pre Bijuu Mode in the war I think it should be SM/KCM on that tier and the Pain Arc Sage Mode should be below them .


SM-Naruto performed better than KCM-Naruto as far as i'm concerned, however the Naruto i'm talking about (Post Turtle Island training) can use both SM and KCM. So yeah...



> Naruto didn't master that shunshin until after his encounter with Ei as for his fight against Nagato to me it was a lot of plot induced ass pulls in that fight to push Itachi in the forefront so I wont excuse him from that and in that very same fight he rectified it by eventually defeating Raikage anyway , only one blip against HG realm doesnt equate to him underperforming consistently throughout the manga or especially post pain-arc


He clearly didn't master it because he fucked it up against BZ, and never could actually consistently draw out that type of speed w/ any level of consistency. 

And the thing with HG-Realm is just once example. Another is Itachi having to school him against CT. And his fuck ups against Kisame and BZ. That's just KCM-Naruto examples though, but there is a clear lack of consistency with the strategy which Naruto fights in the manga. With him at times being extremely cunning in his usage of KB Tactics, while at others just charging the enemy with brute force.



> re you saying Sasuke w/o MS developed is below Itachi or are we talking even with MS developed like at the end of the Danzo fight still being below Itachi by a tier


Sasuke at the start of the summit is decisively bellow Itachi. Sasuke towards the end of the summit fluctuates between performing up to Itachi standards and bellow them.



> That wasn't lack of experience that was plot , as for sasuke we only saw him against Danzo which was a great performance than again against Kabuto where Itachi had knowledge and the fortunes of an Edo-Tensei body and even then Sasuke protected Itachi at times in the battle as well


Call it plot or lack of experience, whatever, but their performances were inconsistent, and it's this inconsistency which makes them fluctuate between tiers. 



> Do you see Hebi-Sauce getting fodderized by Sai, Omio, Kankuro , Deidara himself is an idiot who underperforms


I think you can also make a case for Deidara fluctuating between tiers due to his inexperience as well, so i won't fight you on that one.



> Its below the standard of a true Kage level ninja


It's bellow Kage-level, yet 3 of the individuals on that tier, besides Ei were also Kages


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## Swoldier (Dec 21, 2015)

Might Guy
Hashirama
Madara
Peak Nagato
Bijuu Chakra Mode Minato
Kabutomaru
Itachi-Obito (TIE)
Raikage
KCM Naruto
Minato
EMS Sasuke-Killer Bee (TIE)
Tobirama-War Arc Kakashi (TIE)
Six Paths of Pain
Orochimaru
Muu
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Kisame with Samehada
Onoki
Danzo Shimura
Tsunade
Gaara
Han
Darui
Kakuzu
Sasori
Deidara
Mei Terumi
Yugito Nii
Yagura
Zabuza Momochi
Utakata
Kimimaro
Haku


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 21, 2015)

> You can come up with reasons for why he didn't do more, but that still doesn't change the fact that his showings were not enough to support the idea that Kishimoto still believes Old-Hiruzen is the strongest Gokage.



Could Onoki seal Kurama , could he lay a finger on Juubito , can he seal Edo-Tensei ?




> Old-Hiruzen doesn't need to be the strongest Gokage for the Hokages to be collectively > Gokage.



Thats how the story implied it outside of Naruto and Bee once the enemy was at a grand level the Gokage were seen as collectively the strongest unit meaning those 5 shinobi were above the rest on the battlefield to be able to handle the situation , same thing with the Hokage 




> Kakashi was restored multiple times by Kurama's chakra, while Onoki was not.



was Onoki not resorted by Tsunade ?




> Danzo probably considered Hiruzen superior to him, because stripping away the powers Danzo stole Hiruzen was superior. But I doubt Hiruzen was superior to Danzo w/ 10 Sharingan, Shisui's Eye, and Senju Hashirama's DNA. However if he indeed was, and that's a huge if, were undoubtably talking about Prime-Hiruzen at that point, which is irrelevant to this discussion, which is about Old-Hiruzen's strength.



Where does it imply he's talking about Prime Hiurzen did Danzo not have those abilities all while Hiruzen still stood on top of the shinobi world throughout even his second time around as Hokage , his statement was that no matter what he did he could never match up to  Hiruzen , didn't we see that when Madara had Rinnegan + Mokuton yet was still fighting evenly with Hashirama 




> Nope, because Kishimoto intentionally has Tobirama say the reason the Tensei sucked in P1 was because Orochimaru's skill w/ Edo-Tensei wasn't as good as his PII Skill. So again, since were talking about an Orochimaru limited to his P1-Skill w/ Edo-Tensei, any points about his PII skill are moot.



It had to be downplayed because well because Senju brothers had to give an explanation for why they were much stronger now than they were in PT 1 and lets be real did Orochimaru suddenly train with Edo Tensei over the next 3 yrs to improve it no it was a plot device to explain why the Senju brothers underperformed due to the hype , think about this for a second Orochimaru knew he could use Senju cells to strengthen his control yet this dude had access to Senju cells going back to his experiments with Yammato and the other infants wouldn't it make sense for him to use that to strengthen his tensei , more plot devices to overcompensate for past mistakes 



> He literally used Oral Rebirth to get away from KN4, and said that it's a shame he had to end the battle. So yes, at the moment his body failed he planned to stop fighting KN4.



he used Oral Rebirth during the battle but he never retreated until after Yammato stopped Naruto from rampaging 




> Because he was in Base in the flashback to that battle.



Did they show the actual battle or just the aftermath ?



> Unless your saying Orochimaru's hand-seals are equivalent to SM, which is a joke to me to be perfectly honest, than no it's not fair.



Its wasn't equivalent to what was shown at the time but when have we seen Orochimaru going all out in battle ?



> Gaara in a desert area defended C3's explosion and aided Onoki in stopping one of Madara's meteors. KN4's got nothing to that extent



With Onoki doing most of the leg work and yes Gaara in a desert area is stronger than Orochimaru 








> Orochimaru's best Jutsu at the time was Yamata no Orochi, which he indeed could use despite missing his arms. He didn't need to use it against KN4, but than again Kakashi didn't need to use Kamui when he fought the V2 Jins ether. So Yeah.



Kakashi was going to use Kamui to deflect the TBB from the Jins at the expense of his life 




> Okay cool, let's go with that then. Considering Orochimaru did not interact or face Jiriaya ever again in PII, nothing necessitates them being equal during any part of Part II.



They had the same abilities for over 30 yrs and have never in the manga implied to be far from each other Jiraiya cant bring his friend back , they are fighting evenly 




> I absolute can deny that. Again if Orochimaru could control those Tensei, he absolutely was much higher than High-Kage and the other two Sannin. He was close to pushing God-Tier for fucks sake, and could easily rape both Sannin at once; and Orochimaru is probably even stronger in Boruto time-line. So again your forced equivalency of the sannin does not hold up. There are times when they are clearly no equal, and therefore saying 1 incarnation of Orochimaru is a tier bellow 1 incarnation of Jiraiya is completely legit



Right he came back stronger , tsunade came back stronger , Jiraiya if included into the plot again in the current timeline would come back stronger , Sage Mode has unlimited potential and kishimoto can add all the abilities to it he wants shit in Databook 4 Jiraiya now has frog kumite 




> No they aren't. Naruto was not in a disadvantageous position against Kisame when he fucked his Shunshin up. Sasuke was not in a disadvantageous position against Base-B or HB3-B 4v1. etc... They fucked up because of their in experience, not any disadvantages, plain and simple.



They handn;t mastered their abilities at that point 




> In what way?



Bee got tripped up and had to be schooled by Itachi just like Naruto did 



> SM-Naruto performed better than KCM-Naruto as far as i'm concerned, however the Naruto i'm talking about (Post Turtle Island training) can use both SM and KCM. So yeah...



so then Naruto with Sage Mode mastery in the tier with Itachi and Killer Bee 







> And the thing with HG-Realm is just once example. Another is Itachi having to school him against CT. And his fuck ups against Kisame and BZ. That's just KCM-Naruto examples though, but there is a clear lack of consistency with the strategy which Naruto fights in the manga. With him at times being extremely cunning in his usage of KB Tactics, while at others just charging the enemy with brute force.



For the sake of plot , BZ had a further role to play, Kisame was saved for Gai and Itachi was there to redeem himself and show he can work together with others to achieve his goals , you're caught up in feats I'm caught up in the narrative 




> Sasuke at the start of the summit is decisively bellow Itachi. Sasuke towards the end of the summit fluctuates between performing up to Itachi standards and bellow them.



When did Sasuke post Danzo perform worse than Itachi standards , shit other than the Kabuto fight where Itachi had the advantage of Edo Tensei, Knowledge and the fight being tailor made for Itachi to stop edo tensei 



> Call it plot or lack of experience, whatever, but their performances were inconsistent, and it's this inconsistency which makes them fluctuate between tiers.



This point as I said above is where we probably wont see eye to eye because you're putting feats above the narrative 



> I think you can also make a case for Deidara fluctuating between tiers due to his inexperience as well, so i won't fight you on that one.



ok




> It's bellow Kage-level, yet 3 of the individuals on that tier, besides Ei were also Kages



Thats also wrong the Kages should be in another tier than Mid Atakuski and Hebi/FRS


----------



## Turrin (Dec 22, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Could Onoki seal Kurama , could he lay a finger on Juubito , can he seal Edo-Tensei ?


1) Hiruzen didn't seal Kurama or do anything to Juubito, so I don't know why your listing that as an example of Hiruzen's superiority

2) He can't seal Tensei, but he can bind them by turning them to stone, which to me is just as good

------------

Now can Old Hiruzen counter tons of Jinton blasts from Mu? Can he deal w/ Madara's Meteor.? Can he counter Flower Tree World? Can he counter 5 Madara clones, while saving Ei at the same time? Would he have been able to team up with Tsunade to waste all 25 of those clones?



> Thats how the story implied it outside of Naruto and Bee once the enemy was at a grand level the Gokage were seen as collectively the strongest unit meaning those 5 shinobi were above the rest on the battlefield to be able to handle the situation , same thing with the Hokage


Yeah collectively, not individually, Mei the weakest Gokage was still inferior to characters like Gai, Kakashi, and Edo-Itachi who were on the alliances side..



> was Onoki not resorted by Tsunade ?


Tsunade saved Onoki's life along with the other Gokage. Nowhere to my knowledge does it say Onoki was full restored. Than Onoki did an unknown amount of fighting off panel against the Shinju Tree and Spiral. And it wasn't only Onoki who was exhausted, it was everyone in the alliance that had been involved in combating the Shinju Tree and Spiral. So unless your telling me Kakashi is stronger than the collective unit of the entire alliance, your point here is moot. Kakashi had more stamina left, because he was in Kamui land, until after Obito was defeated, than was talking with BZ, while the rest of the alliance was fighting Madara and Spiral, on top of being restored multiple times.



> Where does it imply he's talking about Prime Hiurzen did Danzo not have those abilities all while Hiruzen still stood on top of the shinobi world throughout even his second time around as Hokage , his statement was that no matter what he did he could never match up to Hiruzen , didn't we see that when Madara had Rinnegan + Mokuton yet was still fighting evenly with Hashirama


Where does it imply he's talking about Old-Hiruzen? And I have no clue what Hashirama/Madara has to do with Danzo/Hiruzen, but Madara became vastly stronger to the point where he could humiliate Hashirama, after stealing more power, so yeah....



> It had to be downplayed because well because Senju brothers had to give an explanation for why they were much stronger now than they were in PT 1 and lets be real did Orochimaru suddenly train with Edo Tensei over the next 3 yrs to improve it no it was a plot device to explain why the Senju brothers underperformed due to the hype , think about this for a second Orochimaru knew he could use Senju cells to strengthen his control yet this dude had access to Senju cells going back to his experiments with Yammato and the other infants wouldn't it make sense for him to use that to strengthen his tensei , more plot devices to overcompensate for past mistakes


Again I'm talking about P1-Tensei showing so this is a moot point.



> he used Oral Rebirth during the battle but he never retreated until after Yammato stopped Naruto from rampaging


Nope he retreats before that, and he attributes it to his body failure directly:
"You are the bright, *young* flames that must protect the village."



> Did they show the actual battle or just the aftermath ?


Jiraiya being in base in the only scene of the fight were were shown, whether it's the actual battle or aftermath, clearly heavily implies he fought the battle in base. As does Jiraiya and Ma/Pa's back and forth during the Pain fight:

Jiraiya: I'm very sorry to call you out like this after so long... // Boss.
Mother: But still, boy... / I thought you didn't like turning into this form?! // Something about it not being much of a hit with the girls...

This makes it seem like Jiriaya hasn't used SM in an extremely long time, not relatively recently when training Naruto. In-fact of Jiriaya did use SM against KN4, that would have been the perfect time to mention it rather than playing up the fact that Jiriaya hasn't used it in such a long time.



> Its wasn't equivalent to what was shown at the time but when have we seen Orochimaru going all out in battle ?


We haven't really, but we've been told literally nothing that would support the notion that Orochimaru's hand-seals are equivalent to SM. So unless you can show me some evidence that supports such, there's no reason for my to blindly believe Orochimaru's hand-seals are equivalent to the enhancements Jiraiya's Sennin Modo gives him.



> With Onoki doing most of the leg work and yes Gaara in a desert area is stronger than Orochimaru


The Gaara I placed on that tier was Gaara in a desert area, so I rest my case.



> Kakashi was going to use Kamui to deflect the TBB from the Jins at the expense of his life


Kakashi was going to attempt to use Kamui to deal with 5 TBB being fired by full Bijuu at once. Which is far beyond the level of KN4's individual TBB. So the comparison is not at all apt, and I think you know that.



> *They had the same abilities for over 30 yrs* and have never in the manga implied to be far from each other Jiraiya cant bring his friend back , they are fighting evenly


'
The bold is your assumption and nothing more, And the manga does heavily imply Jiriaya is head and shoulders above Orochimaru until Orochimaru comes back during the War. 

When Itachi's introduced, Kishi makes a point of having Orochimaru say Itachi is stronger than him, meanwhile he has Itachi say at best he could force a draw with Jiraiya. Which sets things up as Jiraiya >= Itachi > Orochimaru. Than we have a stronger Akatuski member Pain-Rikudo, saying they couldn't have beaten Jiraiya if he had more intel, while Orochimaru after spending a ton of time researching and coveting Sharingan's power, still couldn't hope to beat Itachi. Than we have the Kabuto vs Itachi fight, where we see SM abilities countering Itachi's Sharingan abilities, which Orochimaru could not counter; and we have Kabuto telling us Orochimaru tried to achieve SM and failed, while we know Jiraiya succeeded. 

So in essence Kishi sets up Itachi as being out of Orochimaru's reach strength wise, no matter what he does or what amount of intel he possesses. While on the other hand establishes characters like Itachi and even the stronger Pain-Rikudo are within J-man's reach. As well as creates the differential between Jiraiya and Orochimaru, that Jiraiya succeeded in acquiring the power of Sennin Modo, while Orochimaru failed to. 



> Right he came back stronger , tsunade came back stronger , Jiraiya if included into the plot again in the current timeline would come back stronger , Sage Mode has unlimited potential and kishimoto can add all the abilities to it he wants shit in Databook 4 Jiraiya now has frog kumite


Cool, let's look at Tsunade than, she's in that time-line but is still vastly outclassed by Orochimaru if he can control those Edos. So again your point fails. The Sannin can be much stronger than each other at different times in the manga, accept it and move on.



> They handn;t mastered their abilities at that point


Which is my point 



> Bee got tripped up and had to be schooled by Itachi just like Naruto did


B got tripped up by an ability that was unknown to him, Naruto got tripped up by an ability that was known to him. 

And no Itachi lectures Naruto to be more like B. Remember Naruto starts freaking out after CT is launched, and see's B acting carefree about it and gets pissed at B for being so calm. To which Itachi lectures him, that he needs to be more calm like B and analyze the situation, rather than panicking:
"You are the bright, *young* flames that must protect the village."



> so then Naruto with Sage Mode mastery in the tier with Itachi and Killer Bee


He can perform on that level or her can perform worse, like I said I have him fluctuating between the Tier Itachi and B are on, and the tier bellow them.



> For the sake of plot , BZ had a further role to play, Kisame was saved for Gai and Itachi was there to redeem himself and show he can work together with others to achieve his goals , you're caught up in feats I'm caught up in the narrative


Cool, then let's say it's the narrative holding Naruto back. That still means Naruto's performances fluctuate like I'm saying. Whether we agree on cause or not is irrelevant to the end result.



> When did Sasuke post Danzo perform worse than Itachi standards , shit other than the Kabuto fight where Itachi had the advantage of Edo Tensei, Knowledge and the fight being tailor made for Itachi to stop edo tensei


Sasuke after the Danzo fight got EMS, before ever fighting again with MS (unless we count his fight against Kakashi, in which case I would argue that performance was worse, due to eyesight Issues making his power inconsistent), anyway I never put EMS-Sasuke bellow Itachi's standards, so what are you arguing against 



> Thats also wrong the Kages should be in another tier than Mid Atakuski and Hebi/FRS


Why? Post-Wind Kakashi was considered a Hokage Candidate, and Post-Wind Naruto was considered >= Post-Wind Kakashi strength wise; and Kakuzu was clearly also around the level of those 2, as was Hebi-Sasuke and Deidara. So they all at least cover the bare minimum qualifications for Kage strength wise. The only issue with Naruto, Hebi-Sasuke, and Deidara is one of inexperience and therefore the potential to perform more poorly, than a vet like Kakashi or Kakuzu, which is why I think having them fluctuate between that tier and the one bellow is fair.

Meanwhile I think it's fair placing Ei, Yondaime-Kazekage, and Mei being the weaker Kages we've seen towards the top of that tier.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Dec 22, 2015)

using  namespace ersad;

disclaimer

*Spoiler*: __ 



This isn't  a 1v1 tier list since I've done a ton of those, I'm more so rating the collective value of where each shinobi falls(atleast in my opinion/from my perspective). This is a tier list of  scale and the amount of which each character can influence /  affect change on a battlefield of forces.

So jinton for instance (which is normally just a projectile in a 1v1) is worth more when armies are involved and so therefore Onoki would be higher here than in  normal 1v1 tier list of mine.
So supportive/ multi-hit abilities count more heavily but if you have a ton of brute strength it maybe still worth more. Still subject to my own biases/perspective/point of view ofcourse




Tier1
Hashirama Senju
Madara Uchiha

Tier2
Naruto Uzumaki [BSM/BM]
Nagato Uzumaki
Kabuto Yakushi[Edo Tensei]

Tier3
Killer Bee/Sasuke Uchiha[EMS]
Itachi Uchiha [Edo Tensei]/Naruto Uzumaki[KCM]
Minato Namikaze
Tobirama Senju

Tier4
Jiraiya[Sage Mode]
Naruto[Sage Mode]
Sakura Haruno [EoS] / Tsunade
Kisame/Deidara
Mu/Onoki/Second Mizukage

Tier5
Might Gai_?_
4th/3rd Raikage
Itachi Uchiha [Sick]
Sasuke Uchiha [MS/Hebi]
Kakashi Hatake[MS]
Danzo Shimura 
Hiruzen Sarutobi [Edo Tensei]
Gaara

Tier4
Mei/Sasori/Kakuzu
Kimimaro(Healthy)

forgot bunch of people probably


----------



## Eliyua23 (Dec 22, 2015)

> 1) Hiruzen didn't seal Kurama or do anything to Juubito, so I don't know why your listing that as an example of Hiruzen's superiority
> 
> 2) He can't seal Tensei, but he can bind them by turning them to stone, which to me is just as good



What I'm saying is that Onoki wouldn't outperform Hiruzen in those cirumstances




> Now can Old Hiruzen counter tons of Jinton blasts from Mu? Can he deal w/ Madara's Meteor.? Can he counter Flower Tree World? Can he counter 5 Madara clones, while saving Ei at the same time? Would he have been able to team up with Tsunade to waste all 25 of those clones?



Well we don't know but the differences is Onoki's abilities his bread and butter and fighting style has been expanded on more than Hiruzen's thats it but I can go that route with other characters who have had more showing than other characters with greater stature and hype in the story 

The thing I'm trying to get to you is that Hiruzen was put in positions that Onoki wouldn't outperform Hiruzen but we cant compare Hiruzen to Onoki in situations because his abilities haven't been expanded on enough as having a counter for everything 



> Yeah collectively, not individually, Mei the weakest Gokage was still inferior to characters like Gai, Kakashi, and Edo-Itachi who were on the alliances side..



Edo Itachi wasn't apart of the alliance he was forced back to the alliance with Koto and went on a secret mission to stop Edo-Tensei lets be real if Itachi were alive and well and the alliance knew he was on there side he would be apart of the group engaging in thee most important mission and funny thing is in the end his mission was equal to that of the Gokage because stopping Edo Tensei was just as important than stopping Madara as for Kakashi and Gai being stronger I don't really know about that , Gai had one hax kill ability that he can only use once in his life and Kakashi as an MC was growing just like Naruto,Sakura, Sasuke were so he wasn't a finished product , if he had Duel Kamui and a batter handle theres no way in hell he would be wasting time with the seven swordsmen instead of fighting Madara.



> Tsunade saved Onoki's life along with the other Gokage. Nowhere to my knowledge does it say Onoki was full restored. Than Onoki did an unknown amount of fighting off panel against the Shinju Tree and Spiral. And it wasn't only Onoki who was exhausted, it was everyone in the alliance that had been involved in combating the Shinju Tree and Spiral. So unless your telling me Kakashi is stronger than the collective unit of the entire alliance, your point here is moot. Kakashi had more stamina left, because he was in Kamui land, until after Obito was defeated, than was talking with BZ, while the rest of the alliance was fighting Madara and Spiral, on top of being restored multiple times.



Thats overcompensated for the fact that Kakashi had been fighting even longer than Onoki had though 

You're thinking about this too hard , you're looking at Naruto like its Tekken or Street Fighter where you look at what happened as the Gospel me I look at things like that as an explanation for what the author wants to drive home and thats once the enemies became a greater threat level he specifically put who he wanted in those moments to face the more powerful enemies and allowed who he wanted to get stronger to be able to face them .




> Where does it imply he's talking about Old-Hiruzen? And I have no clue what Hashirama/Madara has to do with Danzo/Hiruzen, but Madara became vastly stronger to the point where he could humiliate Hashirama, after stealing more power, so yeah....



You mean once Madara absorbed Juubi Jin well at that point he wasn't human anymore  



> Again I'm talking about P1-Tensei showing so this is a moot point.



Yeah but don't you think its PS that the guy had what it took to make the tensei stronger but yet chose not to ?



> Nope he retreats before that, and he attributes it to his body failure directly:
> 1



He didn't retreat his body gave out but that implies that his body was in a shitty condition even before the fight started 




> Jiraiya being in base in the only scene of the fight were were shown, whether it's the actual battle or aftermath, clearly heavily implies he fought the battle in base. As does Jiraiya and Ma/Pa's back and forth during the Pain fight:
> 
> Jiraiya: I'm very sorry to call you out like this after so long... // Boss.
> Mother: But still, boy... / I thought you didn't like turning into this form?! // Something about it not being much of a hit with the girls...



After rereading it Jiraiya was severely injured in the fight so its a moot point because he didn't do any better against stage 4 that Orochimaru did 





> We haven't really, but we've been told literally nothing that would support the notion that Orochimaru's hand-seals are equivalent to SM. So unless you can show me some evidence that supports such, there's no reason for my to blindly believe Orochimaru's hand-seals are equivalent to the enhancements Jiraiya's Sennin Modo gives him.



Orochimaru's hand's being sealed is a big deal his entire arsenal and being is related to learning new ninjutsu and creating ninjutsu and you're acting like its no big deal.







> Kakashi was going to attempt to use Kamui to deal with 5 TBB being fired by full Bijuu at once. Which is far beyond the level of KN4's individual TBB. So the comparison is not at all apt, and I think you know that.



There is nothing in this manga that indicates he'd be able to handle anything defensively w/o and even in that scenario he wasn't fighting the Jins 1 on 1 he had Gai, Naruto , Bee alongside him as well 





> When Itachi's introduced, Kishi makes a point of having Orochimaru say Itachi is stronger than him, meanwhile he has Itachi say at best he could force a draw with Jiraiya.



Orochimaru admitted inferiority to Itachi after his hands were sealed , in the flashback he was trying to take over his body not face him in one on one combat so those scenarios were different 

What about Hiruzen preferring Orochimaru to be Hokage over Jiraiya he was nominated alongside Minato , Kisame even said the Sannin name is incomparable to himself , if anything like I said Jiraiya would be slightly stronger than orochimaru but both received a lot of hype from the manga 





> Than we have a stronger Akatuski member Pain-Rikudo, saying they couldn't have beaten Jiraiya if he had more intel, while Orochimaru after spending a ton of time researching and coveting Sharingan's power, still couldn't hope to beat Itachi.



Jiraiya is trying to defeat Nagato Pain in battle Orochimaru isn't trying to kill Itachi but take over his body big difference , from what we know if Orochimaru prepped with more Tensei and built himself up like Kabuto did he would wipe the floor with Itachi but that wasn't his goal.





> Than we have the Kabuto vs Itachi fight, where we see SM abilities countering Itachi's Sharingan abilities, which Orochimaru could not counter; and we have Kabuto telling us Orochimaru tried to achieve SM and failed, while we know Jiraiya succeeded.



and we saw Gai's taijutsu abilities doing much better against Kisame than Bee did 



> So in essence Kishi sets up Itachi as being out of Orochimaru's reach strength wise, no matter what he does or what amount of intel he possesses. While on the other hand establishes characters like Itachi and even the stronger Pain-Rikudo are within J-man's reach. As well as creates the differential between Jiraiya and Orochimaru, that Jiraiya succeeded in acquiring the power of Sennin Modo, while Orochimaru failed to.



So Orochimaru with a full army of Edo-Tensei and a zetsu body is out of Itachi's reach , if Orochimaru summons Minato's Edo in pt 1 is that out of Itachi's reach , can you show me Orochimaru going all out WOF in combat like Jiraiya against those same opponents 


Minato failed  to take FRS to the level than Naruto had in post wind training arc, Naruto had taken Sage Mode to much greater heights than Minato did but Minato was still stronger 




> Cool, let's look at Tsunade than, she's in that time-line but is still vastly outclassed by Orochimaru if he can control those Edos. So again your point fails. The Sannin can be much stronger than each other at different times in the manga, accept it and move on.



Tsunade who was hyped through Sakura was on BM and EMS Sasuke level while not as strong they can totally compete with Orochimaru 








> B got tripped up by an ability that was unknown to him, Naruto got tripped up by an ability that was known to him.



He also knew about the sharingan but still needed to be reminded by Naruto not to look into Itachi's eyes 




> And no Itachi lectures Naruto to be more like B. Remember Naruto starts freaking out after CT is launched, and see's B acting carefree about it and gets pissed at B for being so calm. To which Itachi lectures him, that he needs to be more calm like B and analyze the situation, rather than panicking:
> 1



He doesn't say be more like Bee , because Bee wasn't being analytical or assessing the situation he was deferring to Itachi just like Naruto was , Bee like Naruto played second fiddle to Itachi in that battle so yes they look about the same 









> Cool, then let's say it's the narrative holding Naruto back. That still means Naruto's performances fluctuate like I'm saying. Whether we agree on cause or not is irrelevant to the end result.



If you're not going too look deeper into the circumstances then we will have to agree to disagree 




> Sasuke after the Danzo fight got EMS, before ever fighting again with MS (unless we count his fight against Kakashi, in which case I would argue that performance was worse, due to eyesight Issues making his power inconsistent), anyway I never put EMS-Sasuke bellow Itachi's standards, so what are you arguing against



If we're talking about MS Sasuke fully developed he had one showing then went blind but you have this narrative that a fully mastered MS Sasuke had a shitty showing that puts him a tier below



> Why? Post-Wind Kakashi was considered a Hokage Candidate, and Post-Wind Naruto was considered >= Post-Wind Kakashi strength wise; and Kakuzu was clearly also around the level of those 2, as was Hebi-Sasuke and Deidara. So they all at least cover the bare minimum qualifications for Kage strength wise. The only issue with Naruto, Hebi-Sasuke, and Deidara is one of inexperience and therefore the potential to perform more poorly, than a vet like Kakashi or Kakuzu, which is why I think having them fluctuate between that tier and the one bellow is fair.



That was post Pain-Arc kakashi and seemed to have improved somewhat over the wind-arc as Kakashi like the other team 7 were always static characters who are growing , at that time every implication was that Kakashi and both naruto weren't ready from the convo Jiraiya and tsunade had 



> Meanwhile I think it's fair placing Ei, Yondaime-Kazekage, and Mei being the weaker Kages we've seen towards the top of that tier.



Yondaime -Kazekage was fighting a close fight to War Arc Gaara and Deidara fought a close battle with Noob Kage Gaara , Rasa in the desert in that same scenario would wipe the floor with deidara 

Sasuke and Naruto both need MS/SM respectfully to protect themselves from Ei's speed


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 22, 2015)

Tier1
Senju Hashirama
Uchiha Madara 

Tier2
Orochimaru (w/ edo tensei)
Yakushi Kabuto (w/ edo tensei) 
Uchiha Obito
Uzumaki Nagato 
Uzumaki Naruto  

Tier3
EMS Uchiha Sasuke
Namikaze Minato 
Killer Bee
SenjuTobirama (w/ edo tensei)
Uchiha Itachi  

Tier4
Jiraiya[Sage Mode]
Gengetsu
Muu
Maito Gai
Kakashi Hatake[MS]
Kisame
Yagura (not enough feats)
Oonoki
Sasori
Sandaime Raikage
Gaara
Tsunade
Ei
Sakura Haruno [EoS] 
Deidara

Tier5
Danzo Shimura
Kakuzu
Hiruzen Sarutobi [Edo Tensei]
Mei
Rasa
Kimimaro(Healthy)


----------



## Turrin (Dec 22, 2015)

@Eliyua23

I'm going to attempt to trim some fat here:

*On Hiruzen* - Your giving Hiruzen good excuses for not performing better, but I still don't see any real evidence from you that Kishimoto still intends Old-Hiruzen to be seen as the strongest Gokage, post PII-Retecon's. So to me Kishimoto's intentions for Old-Hiruzen's strength Post-PII Retecon's is too unclear imo for it to be used as evidence to support any argument; this includes arguing Orochimaru's higher placement. I simply need something more tangible showing supporting Old-Hiruzen's hype.

*On Orochimaru* - Orochimaru loosing his hand-seals weakened him, but Kishimoto never showed to what extent. I.E. Kishimoto never showed Orochimaru wielding any powerful Jutsu that I would place alongside Jiraiya's capabilities in Sennin Modo, before or after he got his hand-seals back. The only real direct impact of Orochimaru loosing his seals, he showed, was on Orochimaru loosing his ability to cast Edo-Tensei; and but considering were talking Orochimaru's weaker PI Edo-Tensei for the purpose of this discussion, I do not think that's demonstrating anywhere near the impact of loosing SM.

I also think the manga has been very heavy handed in the fact that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru, even before he lost his hand-seals, so i'm not really buying that as an excuse for Orochimaru's inferiority there ether. And i'm especially not buying the excuse that the Sannin have to always be equal, when Orochimaru was VASTLY superior to Tsunade during the War-Arc (and fuck no Tsunade Byakugo or not, is not steping to the Edo Hokages, she gets FUCKING RAPED, point blank period end of story). Also not buying the whole Naruto took FRS further than Minato comparison to Orochimaru failing to achieve SM; Minato is still superior to Naruto, because he has other Techniques on par or > FRS 50%; Orochimaru on the other hand has nothing on par > than Jiraiya's Sennin Modo, it's some next level shit he simply doesn't have, until he comes back in the War-Arc and upgrades his Edo-Tensei.

I just don't find these to be compelling excuses to ignore the sum total of their portrayal, which puts Jiraiya as much stronger than Orochimaru due to possessing a power that was out of Orochimaru's reach. 

*On the Naruto and Sasuke Stuff* - I think your still failing to graps how I ranked them or at this point simply attacking a straw man intentionally, I can't tell which. Because you keep claiming I placed them a tier lower than X or Y character, when in reality I did not. Again for the 5th time, I place them inbetween tiers intentionally, because at times they can perform on the tier above them, while at others they can perform on the tier bellow them. Whether you wish to attribute this to PNJ, I.E. Kishi holding them back at time for the sake of the narrative, or their inexperience, doesn't matter much to me; my point is that they tend to perform much more inconsistently than other characters, and therefore I do not feel comfortable putting them on a solid tier. 

*On Other Stuff* - No it wasn't Post-Pain Arc Kakashi; Tsunade brought Kakashi up as a candidate in the Uchiha Bros arc, right after Kakashi said Naruto was >= strength wise. And no the implication was not that Kakashi wasn't ready (that was the case with Naruto, but again I would say that was the case for him due to inexperience); the implication was simply that Tsunade was still needed, which to me is simply because Tsunade was still stronger than Kakashi at that point, so she still would make the better Hokage. But fuck even if we use Yondaime-Kazekage as the base-line, I don't think he is outside the reach of the characters I listed. And no Yondaime-Kazekage did not by any means have a close fight with War-Gaara; War-Gaara Low/Mid diff'd his ass extremely quickly.

And no Sauske and Naruto don't need MS/SM to protect themselves from Ei's speed. Naruto has KB/TKB and Sasuke w/o CS was quick enough to out maneuver Ei, sans his max-speed, and for that he can survive a blitz w/ CS2 durability and Oral Rebirth. Now do i think Ei likely beats those 2 most of the time, sure, but that's why I'd place Ei near the top of that tier, with those 2 fluctuating between that tier and the tier bellow it. I mean if the only characters you have a problem with being on that tier, are the ones fluctuating between that one, and the one bellow it, I really don't think there is much to complain about.


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## Rocky (Dec 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And no Sauske and Naruto don't need MS/SM to protect themselves from Ei's speed.



You're right. Sasuke needs Susanoo & Naruto needs Nine-Tails Chakra Mode.



Turrin said:


> Naruto has KB/TKB



Reread Kimimaro vs. Naruto.



Turrin said:


> and Sasuke w/o CS was quick enough to out maneuver Ei, sans his max-speed







Turrin said:


> and for that he can survive a blitz w/ CS2 durability and Oral Rebirth.


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## Turrin (Dec 22, 2015)

@Rocky

1) Kimi didn't blitz Naruto, and Naruto held Kimi at bay w/ TKB, so I don't know how that helps your stance.
2) Ignoring that Sasuke was fast enough to out maneuvered Ei prior to Liger Bomb
3) Juugo did survive Ei's attacks and he doesn't even have oral rebirth


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## Rocky (Dec 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> 1) Kimi didn't blitz Naruto, and Naruto held Kimi at bay w/ TKB, so I don't know how that helps your stance.



...Kimimaro cockslashed through every single one of KN0's clones with no dif. He was also inches away from stabbing Naruto in the face before Lee dropped in. 



Turrin said:


> 2) Ignoring that Sasuke was fast enough to out maneuvered Ei prior to Liger Bomb



I hate that ambiguous "outmaneuver" word.









Call it what you want, but to me, that looks like _Sasuke_ getting "outmaneuvered" (and subsequently raped) in close combat. One evaded blow doesn't tell the whole story. Kakashi ducked Itachi's punch, but that exchange ended with Itachi turning Kakashi into paper and lighting him on fire. Looks like Kakashi was the one who got outmaneuvered. [1][2]



Turrin said:


> 3) Juugo did survive Ei's attacks and he doesn't even have oral rebirth



He survived an elbow to the back, but it knocked him out of commission. I wish Sasuke good luck in _surviving_ a top-speed v2 punch to the fucking face, let alone remaining conscious and using Orochimaru's Substitution.


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## Jad (Dec 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ...Kimimaro cockslashed through every single one of KN0's clones with no dif. He was also inches away from stabbing Naruto in the face before Lee dropped in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rocky. Kakashi outmanevoured Itachi, not the either way around. Kakashi played him. Look at the page after Kakashi gets genjutsu'd. He held Itachi's arm so he couldn't escape Naruto's rasengan.


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## Rocky (Dec 22, 2015)

Jad said:


> Rocky. Kakashi outmanevoured Itachi, not the either way around. Kakashi played him. Look at the page after Kakashi gets genjutsu'd. He held Itachi's arm so he couldn't escape Naruto's rasengan.



I thought Kakashi was only able to do that because the illusion didn't work on the clone. I suppose you could argue that Kakashi knew this and thus let himself be caught, but there are plenty of other examples. Kimimaro vs. Lee is full of them. [1]


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## Turrin (Dec 22, 2015)

@Rocky

1) Naruto held Kimi off w/ TKB w/o being blitz'd for 7 chapters. Kimi only got the drop on Naruto when he was distracted by Sasuke's appearance, which is when Lee had to step in. 

2) Sasuke evaded Ei's attack and landed one of his own instead. Twist that however you wish, but it shows Sasuke (w/o CS Enhancement mind you) is quick enough to react to R1-Ei

3) Juugo survived 2 direct hits from Ei w/o Oral-Rebirth, which enabled Orochimaru to survive literally being torn apart by KN-Naruto. Sasuke w/ CS enhancement, White-Snake Regen, and Oral-Rebirth, should be more than capable of surviving some hits from R2-Ei


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## Rocky (Dec 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> 1) Naruto held Kimi off w/ TKB w/o being blitz'd for 7 chapters. Kimi only got the drop on Naruto when he was distracted by Sasuke's appearance, which is when Lee had to step in.



"Seven Chapters" isn't a defined measurement of time, as Kishimoto was switching back & forth between multiple fights. Kimimaro toyed with Naruto, murderstomped his 1000-clone armada, and basically stabbed him in the face. Kimimaro won that no-dif..



Turrin said:


> 2) Sasuke evaded Ei's attack and landed one of his own instead. Twist that however you wish, but it shows Sasuke (w/o CS Enhancement mind you) is quick enough to react to R1-Ei



Sasuke could react in a taijutsu exchange, but he got massacred in that exchange, needing to fall back on Susanoo just to survive for like five seconds against Raikage. Shunshin no Jutsu would pressure Sasuke even more that that, and v2 would just outright blitz Sasuke to little Uchiha pieces. 



Turrin said:


> Juugo survived 2 direct hits from Ei w/o Oral-Rebirth, which enabled Orochimaru to survive literally being torn apart by KN-Naruto. Sasuke w/ CS enhancement, White-Snake Regen, and Oral-Rebirth, should be more than capable of surviving some hits from R2-Ei



Orochimaru didn't use Oral Rebirth to restitch his body. That was some body-modification voodoo. Oral Rebirth healed the severed arm that KN3 took off. Anyway, Sasuke actually needs to survive the blow to use any form of regeneration. Unless Sasuke's bones are somehow more durable than Susanoo's bones, v2 A's would literally shatter Sasuke's skull. 

That will kill him.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 23, 2015)

> Turrin;54929575@Eliyua23
> 
> 
> 
> *On Hiruzen* - Your giving Hiruzen good excuses for not performing better, but I still don't see any real evidence from you that Kishimoto still intends Old-Hiruzen to be seen as the strongest Gokage, post PII-Retecon's. So to me Kishimoto's intentions for Old-Hiruzen's strength Post-PII Retecon's is too unclear imo for it to be used as evidence to support any argument; this includes arguing Orochimaru's higher placement. I simply need something more tangible showing supporting Old-Hiruzen's hype.



In his time in the manga when he and Onoki were both in the war at a similar time Hiruzen was more highlighted against superior opponents , and you have to support evidence that is was retconned , because it certainly wasn't to poor showing because well in pt 2 his only opponent was Juubito who none of the other Gokage could even lay a hand on , the only thing cannon that both of us could prove to be a retcon would be his GOS title but common sense should tell the reader once VOTE happened and Hashirama was directly compared to Naruto you knew he would eventually be stronger than Hiruzen , and also we can even go further into this the further you get from the leaf village the weaker the ninja become.



> *On Orochimaru* - Orochimaru loosing his hand-seals weakened him, but Kishimoto never showed to what extent. I.E. Kishimoto never showed Orochimaru wielding any powerful Jutsu that I would place alongside Jiraiya's capabilities in Sennin Modo, before or after he got his hand-seals back. The only real direct impact of Orochimaru loosing his seals, he showed, was on Orochimaru loosing his ability to cast Edo-Tensei; and but considering were talking Orochimaru's weaker PI Edo-Tensei for the purpose of this discussion, I do not think that's demonstrating anywhere near the impact of loosing SM.



Orochimaru had one fight Pre-War and that was Edo-Tensei and he only used it to torture his master it wasn't like he was restricted to only using Edo-Tensei and another thing people forget about Edo-Tensei he couldve summoned more if he wanted but he only focused on summoning the Hokage and he could've summoned Minato as well 




> I also think the manga has been very heavy handed in the fact that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru, even before he lost his hand-seals, so i'm not really buying that as an excuse for Orochimaru's inferiority there ether


. 

I think the only thing they've been heavy handed in is that Orochimaru cant get past the sharingan to overtake talented uchiha body Sasuke/Itachi funny how Sasuke trolls Orochimaru w Sharingan but still admitted that Orochimaru is stronger than him, there is nothing comparing the two in direct battle with orochimaru at full strength , even when Orochimaru comes back he's thinking about taking Sasuke's body thats all he cares about with the Uchiha 



> And i'm especially not buying the excuse that the Sannin have to always be equal, when Orochimaru was VASTLY superior to Tsunade during the War-Arc (and fuck no Tsunade Byakugo or not, is not steping to the Edo Hokages, she gets FUCKING RAPED, point blank period end of story).



When I look at Tsunade I'm also factoring in her support abilities with Katsuya hype and being able to heal the alliance and being near indestructible she with that is on High Kage level besides you said yourself that certain shinobi in your tier list are stronger than others on that same tier why could the same be for the Sannin shit even their Stat Totals in the datebook say they are all close in power.



> Also not buying the whole Naruto took FRS further than Minato comparison to Orochimaru failing to achieve SM; Minato is still superior to Naruto, because he has other Techniques on par or > FRS 50%; Orochimaru on the other hand has nothing on par > than Jiraiya's Sennin Modo, it's some next level shit he simply doesn't have, until he comes back in the War-Arc and upgrades his Edo-Tensei.



Your argument was Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru because he failed to achieve Sage Mode , and its really the same thing because your comparing Jiraiya's offensive might well guess what Sage Mode and FRS are stronger raw offensive attributes than what base Minato had shown in the manga , Frog Song is a better genjutsu than what Minato is capable off , his taijutsu is better , he can enhance his ninjutsu , he's physically stronger but thats only two jutsu even with that we both know Minato is superior because thats what Kishimoto wanted to portray , you mean once Orochimaru wasn't limited to the PT 1 scale and fully healthy he showed shit that was better than Jiraiya you dont say but funny thing every thing he did there he couldve accomplished in pt 1 but guess what he didn't give a shit because he only wanted achieve Rikudo through a Uchiha Body .



> I just don't find these to be compelling excuses to ignore the sum total of their portrayal, which puts Jiraiya as much stronger than Orochimaru due to possessing a power that was out of Orochimaru's reach.



With all that Jiraiya only had .5 better stat total than Orochimaru in the datebook 



> *On the Naruto and Sasuke Stuff* - I think your still failing to graps how I ranked them or at this point simply attacking a straw man intentionally, I can't tell which. Because you keep claiming I placed them a tier lower than X or Y character, when in reality I did not. Again for the 5th time, I place them in between tiers intentionally, because at times they can perform on the tier above them, while at others they can perform on the tier bellow them. Whether you wish to attribute this to PNJ, I.E. Kishi holding them back at time for the sake of the narrative, or their inexperience, doesn't matter much to me; my point is that they tend to perform much more inconsistently than other characters, and therefore I do not feel comfortable putting them on a solid tier.



But its okay for Killer Bee to be inconsistent only is his mishaps explained by things like knowledge , matchup , plot but when its naruto and sasuke they are penalized , shit you got MS Obito on a tier higher than Minato who stomped him and struggled with a much weaker opponent in Konan yet those inconsistencies weren't enough for him to be lowered a tier .



> *On Other Stuff* - No it wasn't Post-Pain Arc Kakashi; Tsunade brought Kakashi up as a candidate in the Uchiha Bros arc, right after Kakashi said Naruto was >= strength wise. And no the implication was not that Kakashi wasn't ready (that was the case with Naruto, but again I would say that was the case for him due to inexperience);



If kakashi was ready to be Hokage then why did Jiraiya insist on Tsunade staying then after implying naruto wasn't ready but stronger , Jiraiya was talking about future saying its a given that one day kakashi will become Hokage and Naruto is a long ways off and his insertions were exact even after Naruto becomes leagues stronger kakashi beats him out in the Pain Arc and Pre Gaiden 



> And no Yondaime-Kazekage did not by any means have a close fight with War-Gaara; War-Gaara Low/Mid diff'd his ass extremely quickly.



The fight was quick but it wasn't a wipeout Gaara's sand and Gold Sand collided but Rasa was trying to protect the other Edo Kage 



> nd no Sauske and Naruto don't need MS/SM to protect themselves from Ei's speed. Naruto has KB/TKB and Sasuke w/o CS was quick enough to out maneuver Ei, sans his max-speed, and for that he can survive a blitz w/ CS2 durability and Oral Rebirth. Now do i think Ei likely beats those 2 most of the time, sure, but that's why I'd place Ei near the top of that tier, with those 2 fluctuating between that tier and the tier bellow it. I mean if the only characters you have a problem with being on that tier, are the ones fluctuating between that one, and the one bellow it, I really don't think there is much to complain about.



The fight demonstrated that Sasuke needed MS to protect himself from Raikage's speed with out the Susanoo/Enton he would've been dead if Raikage's kick lands and theres no enton blades Sasuke is dead , Naruto on the other hand needed KCM to match his speed and SM to react to his even slower father


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## Turrin (Dec 23, 2015)

@Rocky

1) Twist it however you want Rocky, the bottom line is multiple fights occurred and conclude, before Kimi got an opening to strike at Naruto; which in turn only occurred due to Naruto being distracted by Sasuke. Clearly TKB was effective in preventing a blitz there

2) Sasuke got massacred because of Ei's defense, not Ei's speed in R1. Since I was only talking about Sasuke's ability to react to R1-Ei's speed; concession accepted

3)CS2-Sasuke w/ CS2 Wing Shields is likely more durable than Rib-Cage Susano'o, which has less than stellar feats (Kabuto easily blowing it away w/ a Senpo Suiton tech), while Sasuke's CS2 wing was able to shield him from a C2 explosive. Again if Juugo can survive 2 blows form Ei in CS form, than Sasuke w/ CS, CS2-Wing Shields, and White-Sanke regen, can survive long enough to use Oral Rebirth imo.


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## Turrin (Dec 24, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> In his time in the manga when he and Onoki were both in the war at a similar time Hiruzen was more highlighted against superior opponents , and you have to support evidence that is was retconned , because it certainly wasn't to poor showing because well in pt 2 his only opponent was Juubito who none of the other Gokage could even lay a hand on , the only thing cannon that both of us could prove to be a retcon would be his GOS title but common sense should tell the reader once VOTE happened and Hashirama was directly compared to Naruto you knew he would eventually be stronger than Hiruzen , and also we can even go further into this the further you get from the leaf village the weaker the ninja become.


The fact that Hiruzen's intended role in the manga was retecon'd, cast doubt on all of his hype imo. If you choose to still believe certain aspects of Hiruzen's hype whole heartedly, that up to you, but it isn't convincing me. And again Hiruzen's displays in the war aren't convincing me he's better than Onoki ether. So we'll have to agree to disagree here.



> Orochimaru had one fight Pre-War and that was Edo-Tensei and he only used it to torture his master it wasn't like he was restricted to only using Edo-Tensei and another thing people forget about Edo-Tensei he couldve summoned more if he wanted but he only focused on summoning the Hokage and he could've summoned Minato as well


1) Orochimaru could not summon Minato in PI, because Minato was sealed in the Death God. 
2) Orochimaru summoning more Tensei on P1-Tensei "level" doesn't impress me much



> think the only thing they've been heavy handed in is that Orochimaru cant get past the sharingan to overtake talented uchiha body Sasuke/Itachi funny how Sasuke trolls Orochimaru w Sharingan but still admitted that Orochimaru is stronger than him, there is nothing comparing the two in direct battle with orochimaru at full strength , even when Orochimaru comes back he's thinking about taking Sasuke's body thats all he cares about with the Uchiha


Not once is that stipulation placed on it. Orochimaru admits inferiority to Itachi. Sasuke calls Orochimaru inferior to Itachi. Etc... Again we'll have to agree to disagree on this, because to me your really reaching here



> When I look at Tsunade I'm also factoring in her support abilities with Katsuya hype and being able to heal the alliance and being near indestructible she with that is on High Kage level besides you said yourself that certain shinobi in your tier list are stronger than others on that same tier why could the same be for the Sannin shit even their Stat Totals in the datebook say they are all close in power.


It's still nowhere fucking near the Edo-Hokages, really don't know what else to say, as it's basically disingenuous BS to me that your even attempting to suggest otherwise.



> Your argument was Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru because he failed to achieve Sage Mode , and its really the same thing because your comparing Jiraiya's offensive might well guess what Sage Mode and FRS are stronger raw offensive attributes than what base Minato had shown in the manga , Frog Song is a better genjutsu than what Minato is capable off , his taijutsu is better , he can enhance his ninjutsu , he's physically stronger but thats only two jutsu even with that we both know Minato is superior because thats what


Again the difference is Minato has abilities and skills that can match Sage-Mode; Orochimaru does not. 



> Kishimoto wanted to portray , you mean once Orochimaru wasn't limited to the PT 1 scale and fully healthy he showed shit that was better than Jiraiya you dont say but funny thing every thing he *did there he couldve accomplished in pt 1* but guess what he didn't give a shit because he only wanted achieve Rikudo through a Uchiha Body .


That's a straight up lie on your part and you know it. The manga blatantly tells us that what Orochimaru accomplished with Edo-Tensei in the war-arc was only possible due to improvements Orochimaru made with the technique, after Part 1. 



> With all that Jiraiya only had .5 better stat total than Orochimaru in the datebook


Yeah Base-J-man had better stats than Orochimaru, no imagine what that implies about SM-J-man



> But its okay for Killer Bee to be inconsistent only is his mishaps explained by things like knowledge , matchup , plot but when its naruto and sasuke they are penalized ,


Killer-B and Obito don't perform inconsistently the same way Naruto and Sasuke did, something i've explained to you multiple times at this point.



> If kakashi was ready to be Hokage then why did Jiraiya insist on Tsunade staying then after implying naruto wasn't ready but stronger , Jiraiya was talking about future saying its a given that one day kakashi will become Hokage and Naruto is a long ways off and his insertions were exact even after Naruto becomes leagues stronger kakashi beats him out in the Pain Arc and Pre Gaiden


Because Tsunade was still better than Kakashi. I mean if you got Mike Tyson, you don't bench him for  some new rookie, even if said rookie meets the bare minimum requirements to be a pro-boxer.



> The fight was quick but it wasn't a wipeout Gaara's sand and Gold Sand collided but Rasa was trying to protect the other Edo Kage


Gaara Low/Mid diff'd his ass, stop fronting



> The fight demonstrated that Sasuke needed MS to protect himself from Raikage's speed with out the Susanoo/Enton he would've been dead if Raikage's kick lands and theres no enton blades Sasuke is dead


Yes MS-Sasuke would be dead, MS-Sasuke also doesn't have Oral-Rebirth, CS Durability, and White-Snake Regen. 



> Naruto on the other hand needed KCM to match his speed and SM to react to his even slower father


Naruto needed KCM to outmatch Ei in his best attribute; speed. Not overall strength


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 24, 2015)

> The fact that Hiruzen's intended role in the manga was retecon'd, cast doubt on all of his hype imo. If you choose to still believe certain aspects of Hiruzen's hype whole heartedly, that up to you, but it isn't convincing me. And again Hiruzen's displays in the war aren't convincing me he's better than Onoki ether. So we'll have to agree to disagree here.



You're comparing his Strongest Gokage hype to his GOS hype and I dont see the correlation , Senju vs Uchiha dominated pt 2 so off course it would make sense to raise Hashirama's importance above Hiruzen who didn't have that connection as for any of the Gokage who have 0 relevance to the main hero and his goals to be suddenly placed above Hiruzen makes no sense .




> 1) Orochimaru could not summon Minato in PI, because Minato was sealed in the Death God.
> 2) Orochimaru summoning more Tensei on P1-Tensei "level" doesn't impress me much



It shows he could summon more tensei , and more tensei that were displaying power on par with  any of the elite jounins in the village at that time doesn't impress you I dont know what will 




> Not once is that stipulation placed on it. Orochimaru admits inferiority to Itachi. Sasuke calls Orochimaru inferior to Itachi. Etc... Again we'll have to agree to disagree on this, because to me your really reaching here



Sasuke also thought he could face Itachi guess what he was wrong , show me Orochimaru admitting Itachi is stronger before losing his arms , show me the panel of Orochimaru trying to go out trying to kill Itachi and not take his body 



> It's still nowhere fucking near the Edo-Hokages, really don't know what else to say, as it's basically disingenuous BS to me that your even attempting to suggest otherwise.



The Katsuya that was summoned to the battlefield was only 10% of the actual Katsuya , Sakura was close to BM,EMS, with 3 years of storing chakra shit if Tsunade can store that much chakra who knows what she would've been capable off 





> Again the difference is Minato has abilities and skills that can match Sage-Mode; Orochimaru does not.



Thats not the argument you were making though , the argument you made is that Jiraiya being able to use Sage Mode and Orochimaru failing to do so makes him superior , but yet you admit that Orochimaru who took his Edo even further ended up surpassing Jiraiya .




> That's a straight up lie on your part and you know it. The manga blatantly tells us that what Orochimaru accomplished with Edo-Tensei in the war-arc was only possible due to improvements Orochimaru made with the technique, after Part 1.



He needed Mokuton to suppress the Edo Tensei and make his bind stronger thats all and did he not have access to this in pt 1 , he couldn't have trained as he had no arms , he still used the same tools to summon them , only difference is with Kabuto's energy and Zetsu body he gained a stronger control over the tensei , my guess in part 1 and 2 Orochimaru doesn't give a shit about Edo tensei it was all about trying to get a uchiha body .




> Yeah Base-J-man had better stats than Orochimaru, no imagine what that implies about SM-J-man



and imply what that says for Edo Tensei 




> Killer-B and Obito don't perform inconsistently the same way Naruto and Sasuke did, something i've explained to you multiple times at this point.



Yeah its because your bias in your argument they have made mistakes and taken L's you just make excuses for them you wont allow for naruto and sasuke



> Because Tsunade was still better than Kakashi. I mean if you got Mike Tyson, you don't bench him for  some new rookie, even if said rookie meets the bare minimum requirements to be a pro-boxer.



Yet a Naruto with even 3 more yrs experience that was 3 times as strong still wasn't made Hokage over Kakashi which tells me he was talking about experience and not strength 









> Yes MS-Sasuke would be dead, MS-Sasuke also doesn't have Oral-Rebirth, CS Durability, and White-Snake Regen.



Whats going to stop him from being pummeled over and over again until he just dies with Enton/Susanoo he was able to not only protect himself but also physically harm Raikage in the process 



> Naruto needed KCM to outmatch Ei in his best attribute; speed. Not overall strength



He also was able to tank Ei's blows because of KCM without it he would've been shattered in two pieces


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> 1) *You brought up a private story, I talked about a PM apology, never the content of that apology or reason for it. *
> 2) I use curse words in casual speech, you should know that from my history on the forum and our own conversations, so trying to twist that now into some grave insult is pretty weak
> 3) You have shown a consistent pattern of attacking my character, any time your lack an appropriate counter point
> 
> I suggest you *re-read this entire conversation and really consider who is at fault here*. Me who was providing actual evidence for discussion. Or you who argued from clear place of bias from the Jump (Kakashi beating Obito), than proceeded right into personal attacks from there, and is now trying to deflect the blame onto me, simply because I attempted to remind you to check yourself, before going down the same route of personal attacks as you did before. If you can't see who is really at fault here, that's not my problem though, I'll just be done putting effort into discussing shit seriously with you, which is shame because I enjoyed our VM's, but I'm not going to put up with someone whose going to resort to personal attacks every-time our opinions are at odds. K, peace out bro.


No, I didn't, but whatever floats your boat, the transcript is out in public. I never mentioned anything about a 'PM' at all, you are the one that brought a private discussion into a public one. 





			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So your already back to this. *Even after all the shit you said last time and PM apology.* Stop getting so worked up about a fictional fucking character bro. Your favorite doesn't need to be overrated strength wise by everyone to justify him being a good character.


 I don't really have much else to say, because the thing is you automatically get defensive about everything whether it is a suggestion, discussion or argument. So when people talk to you, you assume everything is a win/lose situation, when it clearly isn't.


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## ImSerious (Feb 12, 2016)

See my sig for the only accurate tier list. Anything else is wrong.


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## Bonly (Feb 12, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> See my sig for the only accurate tier list. Anything else is wrong.



What if Minato is my fave? How can Minato be above himself?


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## Indra (Feb 12, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Everyone's tier list is gonna differ depending on how they rank characters and what not but without mine is
> 
> *Top Tier*
> 
> ...


Not bad at all


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## ImSerious (Feb 12, 2016)

Bonly said:


> What if Minato is my fave? How can Minato be above himself?


I knew he was your fav. I could sense it, deep down you are a true Minatofan


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## Saru (Feb 12, 2016)

*Gai:*

Gai (Shimon)

*God of Shinobi:*

Hiruzen (Prime) 
Madara (Sage Mode)
Hashirama (Sage Mode) / Madara (Rinnegan)
Madara (EMS)
Sasuke (EMS) / Naruto (50% BM)
Minato (50% BM)
Hashirama (Base)

--

*Elites:*

Kabuto (Sage Mode, Edo Tensei)
Madara (Mangekyo Sharingan)
Nagato
Nagato's Six Paths of Pain
Minato
Naruto (KCM)
Itachi (Healthy) / Obito (Mangekyo Sharingan) / Tobirama / Killer B
Madara (3-TS)
Naruto (Sage Mode) [War Arc]
Danzo (Kotoamatsukami)

--

*High Kage:*

Naruto (Sage Mode) [Pain Arc] / Sasuke (Mangekyo Sharingan) / Sakura (War Arc) [Kishi said they were equal, so they're equal I guess... -_- ]
Jiraiya / Kakashi / Gai 
Orochimaru (no Edo Tensei)
Onoki
A / Tsunade
Itachi (3-TS)
Hanzo

--

*Mid Kage:*

Hiruzen (Old)
A (Sandaime Raikage)
Kisame
Sasori
Gengetsu/Muu
Danzo (w/o Kotoamatsukami)
Sasuke (Hebi)
Deidara
Kakuzu

--

*Low Kage:*

Gaara 
Orochimaru (Gimped)
Rasa
Mei
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Konan

--

*Upper Jonin:*

Lee 
Karin
Chiyo 
Kimimaro
Choji
Shikamaru
Darui
Yamato
Suigetsu
Juugo
Hidan
Neji
Tsunade (Rusty)
Zabuza
Kakashi (Part 1)
Asuma
Temari
Haku
Kurotsuchi/Akatsuchi
Kurenai

--

*Lower Jonin:*

Sai / Kankuro / Tenten (Bannana Fan)
Kiba
Anko
Shino / Hinata / Ino
C
Shizune

--

*Konohamaru:*

Konohamaru

***​
I haven't settled on this though, and match ups are still a thing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 12, 2016)

*God tier

*8 Gated Gai

*Demi God Tier
*
Hashirama
Madara

*Almost Demi God Tier*

BSM Naruto
BM Minato


*Close but no cigar tier*

Nagato
Itachi
Minato
Obito
Kabuto
EMS Sauce 
KCM Naruto

*
High Tier*

SM Naruto
MS Sasuke
Kirabi
A
Onoki

*Mid tier*

Mu
Sandaime Raikage
Gengetsu
Kakashi
Jiraiya
Oro
Gai
Deidara
Hebi Sauce
Kisame
Kakuzu

*Low Tier
*
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei
Chiyo
Hanzo
Hiruzen
Hidan

*Dogshit tier*

White Zetsu
Konan
Sakura


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