# TCM Toneri vs JJ Madara (pre-Shinju)



## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

*Location*: Moon
*Starting Distance*: 200 meters 
*Knowledge*: None
*Restrictions*: None


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## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2018)

Base hamura shits....base rsm naruto was shitting on one eyed non jin shinjudara.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 29, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> base rsm naruto


Is way stronger than BSM Naruto

Like...WAY stronger...

Madara can take this


sabre320 said:


> Base toneri


Good joke 

RSM>>>>BSM and BSM punked Tenseigan Toneri

JJ Madara ain’t losin to Base freaking Toneri


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## Kannon (Dec 29, 2018)

I don't even think he definitely beats Juubito lol. And JJ Madara is definitely stronger than JJ Obito.


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 29, 2018)

Toneri can give more trouble than either Naruto or Sasuke at that point, and Madara was running from them. Even before running, his initial plan was to snatch Sasuke's eye for a power-up.

So, if banned from getting more power ups, Madara just gets blasted to death.


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## Kannon (Dec 29, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Toneri can give more trouble than either Naruto or Sasuke at that point, and Madara was running from them. Even before running, his initial plan was to snatch Sasuke's eye for a power-up.
> 
> So, if banned from getting more power ups, Madara just gets blasted to death.



So Toneri> then War Arc RSM Naruto or War Arc Rinnegan Sasuke. Nice logic.


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 29, 2018)

Kannon said:


> So Toneri> then War Arc RSM Naruto or War Arc Rinnegan Sasuke. Nice logic.



Considering how much difficulty BSM Naruto had, yes.

dumb fuck


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## Kannon (Dec 29, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Considering how much difficulty BSM Naruto had, yes.
> 
> dumb fuck



Lol so BSM Naruto>RSM Naruto? Ok lol. You're right.


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 29, 2018)

The finer details seem to escape you


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## Kannon (Dec 29, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> The finer details seem to escape you


And your lack of self-awareness is astounding. It's interesting how NH fans, Hyuga fanboys and Boruto fanboys all have the same characteristics. Raniero was like that too lol. Are you all friends and have a secret agreement to start trolling or something?


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## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Is way stronger than BSM Naruto
> 
> Like...WAY stronger...
> 
> ...


My bad thought it was tcm hamura


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 29, 2018)

Kannon said:


> And your lack of self-awareness is astounding. It's interesting how NH fans, Hyuga fanboys and Boruto fanboys all have the same characteristics. Raniero was like that too lol. Are you all friends and have a secret agreement to start trolling or something?



Interesting

you just lump together anyone you disagree with?

100% BSM Naruto is greater than or equal to 50% SPSM Naruto. That's all there is to it. Half of the kyuubi is worth more than 5 other bijuu. SM+100% kyuubi is basically the Juubi.


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## Kannon (Dec 29, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Interesting
> 
> you just lump together anyone you disagree with?
> 
> 100% BSM Naruto is greater than or equal to 50% SPSM Naruto. That's all there is to it. Half of the kyuubi is worth more than 5 other bijuu. SM+100% kyuubi is basically the Juubi.


Just suspicious lol. The lack of self-awareness is really astounding.

Edit: Lol


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## HighKage (Dec 29, 2018)

TCM Toneri takes this low-diff.


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 29, 2018)

Kannon said:


> Just suspicious lol. The lack of self-awareness is really astounding.
> 
> Edit: Lol



I see you didn't respond to the actually relevant part of my post.

Run out of bullshit?


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## Kannon (Dec 29, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> I see you didn't respond to the actually relevant part of my post.
> 
> Run out of bullshit?



Why don't you make a thread about the Last 100% BSM Naruto vs War Arc RSM Naruto if you're so sure about it? Idgaf either way lol.


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 29, 2018)

Kannon said:


> Why don't you make a thread about the Last 100% BSM Naruto vs War Arc RSM Naruto if you're so sure about it? Idgaf either way lol.



It's already been discussed


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## Kannon (Dec 29, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> It's already been discussed



Ok then lol. I'm not really interested in who won or lost as I don't really care about Naruto(the character) anyway.


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## King1 (Dec 29, 2018)

Madara wins this match. This madara is equal to RSM Naruto who is greater than BSM Naruto and that naruto defeated Toneri


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## King1 (Dec 29, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> I see you didn't respond to the actually relevant part of my post.
> 
> Run out of bullshit?


Dude, who are you talking to? In my end here it’s like you are talking to yourself or is it someone have blocked?


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## Grinningfox (Dec 29, 2018)

King1 said:


> Dude, who are you talking to? In my end here it’s like you are talking to yourself or is it someone have blocked?



Prob Kannon


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## King1 (Dec 29, 2018)

Grinningfox said:


> Prob Kannon



So that guy have already invaded this section too huh


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## Grinningfox (Dec 30, 2018)

King1 said:


> So that guy have already invaded this section too huh



I guess


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## MarF (Dec 30, 2018)

19 year old Naruto > 17 year old Naruto.

Dunno why this is so hard to understand.

The only reason TL Naruto used KCSM instead of RSM is because the production of the movie started long before its design was revealed in the manga, in fact Kishi started writing the script before Naruto's BM was introduced.

Saying Toneri was beaten by a Naruto that was using "only BM" would imply that Naruto was holding back, which is straight up retarted when you take the following into consideration:

Toneri was holding Hinata as a hostage and ripped Hanabi's eyes out.
Toneri oneshotted Naruto once and would have done it again if Hinata didn't save him after she awakened Hamura's chakra.
Toneri's endgoal was to slam the entire moon into earth wiping out all of humanity.

Saying Naruto was holding back with so much at stake is nonsense and also ignores all the feats Naruto and Toneri have in the movie that shit on nearly everything shown prior.

A lot of people also seem to be under the impression that TL Naruto is stronger than Toneri which is straight up wrong.

Naruto needed help multiple times throughout the entire movie, even after Toneri was "defeated" and had his eyes ripped out he casually stole all of Naruto's Chakra just by lifting his hand up.

1 vs 1 Naruto gets curbed by Toneri.


As for this threads matchup.

Toneri wins.

Outside of Limbo this Madara has no way of getting a solid hit in against an opponent that is faster than him, can casually spam dozens of Goudama, rip out all his chakra in a second with a handwave and nuke him from outer space.


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## NanadaimhokageNU (Dec 30, 2018)

Toner mid diffs


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

My boi toneri kills this fool easily. Everyone says BSM forgetting naruto was boosted by rikudo chakra and was flying, technically making it six paths senjutsu he used.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

MarF said:


> 19 year old Naruto > 17 year old Naruto.
> 
> Dunno why this is so hard to understand.
> 
> ...


There's also the fact that as an adult that Naruto uses SPSM for trivial things.
Stopping a train
Intimidating a teenager
Saving two children from projectiles
About to use it to fight Nue.
If Naruto can use SPSM for such things, why did he use a weaker mode for a planetary threat?


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## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Dec 30, 2018)

Madara destroys him, Toneri got one-shotted by a KCSM chakra fist, Limbo that knocked back all bijuu now empowered by the Juubi and rikudo senjutsu runs a train on him alongside the real Madara.

Strong willed Nunoboko sword and Quad Juubidama also one-shot.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

Ghost Of The Uchiha said:


> Madara destroys him, Toneri got one-shotted by a KCSM chakra fist,


It was a rikudo BSM chakra fist that had moon level striking power.



> Limbo that knocked back all bijuu now empowered by the Juubi and rikudo senjutsu runs a train on him alongside the real Madara.


Except toneri also has rikudo senjutsu and proceeds to react accordingly. Madara is shit diffed.



> Strong willed Nunoboko sword and Quad Juubidama also one-shot.


Nunoboko has no feats and GWRE already surpasses it, plus he can just dodge it.

Quad bijuudama takes time to create and Toneri can simply destroy the tree. Meanwhile Toneri's TSB shield will provide him protection anyways.

EDIT: @Cursemark disliking my post without giving reasons why. It's to be expected though


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## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Dec 30, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> It was a rikudo BSM chakra fist that had moon level striking power.


 
Won't even entertain this nonsense.



Kamalu said:


> Except toneri also has rikudo senjutsu and proceeds to react accordingly. Madara is shit diffed.



Toneri got kicked around by Base Naruto, Madara is on par with RSM Naruto, add Limbo and he gets a train run down on him, not debatable the only one getting negged is the shiny green clown.



Kamalu said:


> Nunoboko has no feats and GWRE already surpasses it, plus he can just dodge it.



Nunoboko has planet busting hype if used by a strong willed user which far surpasses what GWRE showed, it's best feat is getting overpowered by a Naruto without RSM or his avatar.



Kamalu said:


> Quad bijuudama takes time to create and Toneri can simply destroy the tree



Only correct thing you said.



Kamalu said:


> Meanwhile Toneri's TSB shield will provide him protection anyways.



False, only ten tails jin have shown the ability to negate ninjutsu, their bodies alone are invulnerable to ninjutsu something no else showed, TSB alone won't give you ability to negate ninjutsu as seen when Hiruzen was able to regenerate his arm after getting hit by them when Obito didn't have control over the Juubi.

The entire discussion is moot when any rikudo level being would violate a Naruto without RSM or his avatar regardless of having Hagoromo's chakra or not and that's the version of Naruto that one-shotted Toneri. pitting him against someone who was said to be close in power to the Sage by the sage's own words is lunacy.


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## Trojan (Dec 30, 2018)

Toneri destroys him.

He can oneshots him with the sphere that drains all the chakra at once (knocked Naruto out for 3 days)
or he can smash the entire moon on his dumb head.

Either way, Toneri is the stronger one of the 2.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

Ghost Of The Uchiha said:


> Won't even entertain this nonsense.


Because you can't debunk it.




> Toneri got kicked around by Base Naruto,


No. He fought rikudo BSM naruto for an hour. Then he concentrated his chakra cloak into his fist and beat toneri.



> Madara is on par with RSM Naruto,


Madara was so on par, he was getting his ass kicked left and right and had all his jutsu's get countered easily.



> add Limbo and he gets a train run down on him,


Because limbo actually does something other than add to the number of madara's toneri neg diffs.



> not debatable the only one getting negged is the shiny white clown.


FTFY.





> Nunoboko has planet busting hype


Because it was used by HAGOROMO. It's like saying kakashi has mountain level chidoris and rasengans because naruto and sasuke busted mountains with those jutsu. You can't do that.

And Hype? I know hype is valid here, but by hype Toneri is a planet buster as well, so what good does your flawed scaling do for madara?



> if used by a strong willed user


Where was this stated? And let me ask something else, when did madara use sword of nunoboko?



> which far surpasses what GWRE showed,



You heard it ninjas, hype>feats because... whatever I guess.



> it's best feat is getting overpowered by a Naruto without RSM or his avatar.


I don't see the point in correcting an obvious falsity made by a fanboy, angry that a shiny green clown beats his favorite.





> Only correct thing you said.


Glad you admit this.





> False, (1)only ten tails jin have shown the ability to negate ninjutsu, (2)their bodies alone are invulnerable to ninjutsu something no else showed, (3)TSB alone won't give you ability to negate ninjutsu



Let's correct this one by one.
(1)Ten tails jinchuuriki can negate ninjutsu through the TSB. Not through their bodies.
(2)Madara got cut in half by sasuke's chidori imbued sword. If what you're saying is true, sasuke's sword should have done jack shit, perhaps even get disintegrated.
(3)True, you have to mentally command it to do so, and you imbue yin-yang release while doing it



> as seen when Hiruzen was able to regenerate his arm after getting hit by them when Obito didn't have control over the Juubi.


And what did minato get hit twice with that made him not regenerate his arm? Fuck, how did naruto come to the conclusion that only senjutsu doesn't get erased, when all other ninjutsu got erased? I'll answer for you: gudodama.



> The entire discussion is moot when any rikudo level being would violate a Naruto without RSM or his avatar


Not true. Rikudo chakra and senjutsu is not an "I win" button that allows you to triumph over non-rikudo characters, as long as you have feats and abilities to back up your "rikudo level". 
Naruto also uses rikudo senjutsu the moment he enters fucking sage mode, because rikudo chakra + nature energy = rikudo senjutsu. Any other form is just a bonus to his stats.



> regardless of having Hagoromo's chakra or not and that's the version of Naruto that one-shotted Toneri.


The version of naruto that defeated toneri after a 1 hour fight is >>> the naruto that fought and was humiliating Madara by feats, scaling, common sense etc you name it. As long as it's not fanboy logic.



> pitting him against someone who was said to be close in power to the Sage by the sage's own words is lunacy.


So you use statements as well? Well toneri said he reawakened hamura's power and hamura was said to be equal to the sage, so there


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> SM+100% kyuubi is basically the Juubi.


Oh boy 

There is so much wrong here I dont even know where to begin


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## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Dec 30, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> Because you can't debunk it.



You said that Naruto can bust the moon with his fists, that's a ridiculous assertion that doesn't merit debunking.



Kamalu said:


> No. He fought rikudo BSM naruto for an hour. Then he concentrated his chakra cloak into his fist and beat toneri.



Stop calling him Rikudo BSM Naruto, he wasn't using his god level state thus he wasn't rikudo level, period.



Kamalu said:


> Madara was so on par, he was getting his ass kicked left and right and had all his jutsu's get countered easily.



Read the manga, he blocked his punch and tanked YRS, all of this while being on the verge of death after Yagai, and once again these are all feats that are 100% irrelevant to this discussion as he did them in six paths sage mode, a state that far surpasses what he used to stomp Toneri.



Kamalu said:


> Because limbo actually does something other than add to the number of madara's toneri neg diffs.



Toad sage Mode ragdolled him, Limbo which had the power to bitchslap the Bijju pre jj amp with the added benefit of rikudo senjutsu  would crave Toneri's skull in.



Kamalu said:


> Because it was used by HAGOROMO. It's like saying kakashi has mountain level chidoris and rasengans because naruto and sasuke busted mountains with those jutsu. You can't do that.



Obito said he would have used it to destroy the world so its not like hagoromo is the only one who can use it on that level.



Kamalu said:


> Where was this stated? And let me ask something else, when did madara use sword of nunoboko?



It was stated that the power of the sword is proportional to the user's willpower, that's why Obito's version flopped, reading the manga would be helpful.

Madara didn't use it because Minato teleported away his TSB and he didn't need it earlier on cause he was fighting ants relatively speaking.



Kamalu said:


> You heard it ninjas, hype>feats because... whatever I guess.



The sword is featless, what do you suggest using then? Obito's version failed because he subconsciously didn't believe in what he was doing thus he couldn't use at its full strength as stated.



Kamalu said:


> I don't see the point in correcting an obvious falsity made by a fanboy, angry that a shiny green clown beats his favorite.



The only version of Madara that your fav beats is Rinnegan Madara.

Prime Madara is dimensions above this clown and even the weakest incarnation of JJ Madara would low diff him with 0 issues.



Kamalu said:


> 1)Ten tails jinchuuriki can negate ninjutsu through the TSB. Not through their bodies.



Yes they can, Obito got hit by Enton Rasenhuriken and suffered no damage, they even went thorugh the trouble of swapping him with Hiraishin in order to prevent TSB from being used and he wasn't even fazed.

Tobirama even commented on the fact that even hitting his body directly didn't work.



Kamalu said:


> (2)Madara got cut in half by sasuke's chidori imbued sword. If what you're saying is true, sasuke's sword should have done jack shit, perhaps even get disintegrated.



That's Rikudo Sasuke using six paths chakra which is a form of sage chakra in and of itself thus Omnyouton can't negate it.



Kamalu said:


> And what did minato get hit twice with that made him not regenerate his arm? Fuck, how did naruto come to the conclusion that only senjutsu doesn't get erased, when all other ninjutsu got erased? I'll answer for you: gudodama.



Read correctly next time, Hiruzen got hit by gudo-dama by berserk Obito and didn't get erased thus control was necessary, thus gudo-dama by themselves won't grant you ninjutsu nullification as no one bar ten tails jins has shown such ability.



Kamalu said:


> Not true. Rikudo chakra and senjutsu is not an "I win" button that allows you to triumph over non-rikudo characters, as long as you have feats and abilities to back up your "rikudo level".



Irrelevant and wrong.



Kamalu said:


> Naruto also uses rikudo senjutsu the moment he enters fucking sage mode, because rikudo chakra + nature energy = rikudo senjutsu. Any other form is just a bonus to his stats.



100% false.

If what you said were true Rinnegan Madara would be using rikudo senjutsu as well since he has rikudo chakra from having awakened the Rinnegan and he uses natural energy since he was in sage mode.

You're an amateur mate, reread the manga and stop spreading your fanfictions.



Kamalu said:


> The version of naruto that defeated toneri after a 1 hour fight is >>> the naruto that fought and was humiliating Madara by feats, scaling, common sense etc you name it. As long as it's not fanboy logic.



Only one who got humiliated is your boy who got one-shotted by a KCSM chakra fist, Madara tanked all his attacks.

And for the 50th time RSM Naruto>>>>>BSM Naruto so that comparison is completely irrelevant since Naruto using a godly state is far stronger than Naruto not using it by every logic in this world.



Kamalu said:


> So you use statements as well?



Nothing wrong in using portrayal.



Kamalu said:


> Well toneri said he reawakened hamura's power and hamura was said to be equal to the sage, so there



He reawakened the Tenseingan which was Hamura's power, no direct strength comparison was made while the Sage directly stated that Madara was approaching his power.


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 30, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh boy
> 
> There is so much wrong here I dont even know where to begin



There's not.

The bijuu are literally the Juubi divided into 9 parts. Since we already know half of kurama is worth more than 5 bijuu, doubling his chakra and adding a senjutsu multiplier gets him into the Juubi's power range.

Even Sasuke just putting bijuu chakra into his Susano'o was compared to the Gedo Mazo.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

Ghost Of The Uchiha said:


> You said that Naruto can bust the moon with his fists, that's a ridiculous assertion that doesn't merit debunking.


What I said and meant was naruto can bust the moon with his fist because that fist has all his chakra mode cloak in it. The same chakra cloak that withstood moon level force earlier without damage.





> Stop calling him Rikudo BSM Naruto, he wasn't using his god level state thus he wasn't rikudo level, period.


Naruto's base form is amped by six paths chakra permanently. Entering BSM is just another enhancement on top of the rikudo amp.





> Read the manga, (1)he blocked his punch (2)and tanked YRS, all of this while being on the (3)verge of death after Yagai,


1 True. But naruto hadn't activated his BSM chakra mode, which amped him even further.
2 True. But he was in a bad condition.
3. Madara had healed completely after that. He was not on the verge of death.



> and once again these are all feats that are 100% irrelevant to this discussion as he did them in six paths sage mode, a state that far surpasses what he used to stomp Toneri.


And madara isn't SPSM level because of these feats, so you can't use them as well in madara's favor.



> Toad sage Mode RBSM ragdolled high diffed him,


FTFY



> Limbo which had the power to bitchslap the Bijju pre jj amp with the added benefit of rikudo senjutsu  would crave Toneri's skull in.


Because you say so. Toneri's durability far exceeds what juubi jin limbo can do. 



> Obito said he would have used it to destroy the world so its not like hagoromo is the only one who can use it on that level.


Statements mean nothing in this manga as they are full of hyperbole and exaggerations. Gaara's sand, susano'o, third raikage, etc all are said to be absolute in defense. Edo tensei is called unstoppable. Rinnegan users are said to be capable of destroying The world. Everything here is proven wrong. 

If you still want to go by statements, answer me this:

How does sword of nunoboko work?
How long does it take to planet bust?
Go ahead, I'm listening.




> It was stated that the power of the sword is proportional to the user's willpower, that's why Obito's version flopped, reading the manga would be helpful.


What chapter? And willpower as a power source? Kinda sounds like hyperbole to me. 

And what stops toneri from creating his own sword of nunoboko? It's made from TSB, which toneri has as well.



> Madara didn't use it because Minato teleported away his TSB


Madara still had enough TSB to make an egg and a staff later on.



> and he didn't need it earlier on cause he was fighting ants relatively speaking.


Why didn't he pull it out when facing naruto and sasuke? Were they just children?




> The sword is featless, what do you suggest using then?


I don't know, how about other jutsu with actual feats instead of hype.



> Obito's version failed because he subconsciously didn't believe in what he was doing thus he couldn't use at its full strength as stated.


What chapter, I can't find it and would be really glad if you gave a link or even just a name.





> The only version of Madara that your fav beats is Rinnegan Madara.


Yeah, double rinnegan madara is the one toneri beats. As well as all other versions.



> Prime Madara is dimensions above this clown and even the weakest incarnation of JJ Madara would low diff him with 0 issues.


Based on what feats? Saying more chakra won't be a good reason.




> Yes they can, Obito got hit by Enton Rasenhuriken and suffered no damage.


Yes. But that was because he used his TSB to clear the flames and heal himself.



> That's Rikudo Sasuke using six paths chakra which is a form of sage chakra in and of itself thus Omnyouton can't negate it.


Six paths chakra is not a form of sage chakra, it contains no natural energy and thus it can't be grouped with senjutsu(of which sage chakra is integral to). It's simply a stronger form of normal chakra.



> Read correctly next time, Hiruzen got hit by gudo-dama by berserk Obito and didn't get erased thus control was necessary, thus gudo-dama by themselves won't grant you ninjutsu nullification as no one bar ten tails jins has shown such ability.


And kaguya, the ten tails itself. Gudodama will not grant you the ability to nullify ninjutsu automatically unless you will it. And no, you don't need to be a juubi jin to use that function of TSB's, you just need six paths senjutsu. Which toneri has.





> relevant and right.


Again, FTFY. You should be thanking me for these corrections 




> 100% false.
> 
> If what you said were true Rinnegan Madara would be using rikudo senjutsu as well since he has rikudo chakra from having awakened the Rinnegan and he uses natural energy since he was in sage mode.


Madara only got six paths chakra when he was old, and when he was brought back to life he was young, meaning he lost it, evidenced by him needing hashi's face to give him an edge. So he couldn't have gotten six paths chakra because that would take decades to re-attain.

Also, how do you explain Hamura, Hagoromo(pre juubi jin), Asura, and Obito(post juubi jin), who had rikudo senjutsu, but only had six paths chakra to start from?



> You're an amateur mate, reread the manga and stop spreading your fanfictions.


Sure thing Mr hype>feats.



> Only one who got humiliated is your boy who got one-shotted by a KCSM chakra fist, Madara tanked all his attacks.


Toneri was defeated by RBSM concentrated chakra cloak fist. Madara was injured by yoton rasenshuriken, had his inton raiha neg diffed, light fang was dodged easily, limbo was reacted to, chibaku tensei vaped. Humiliation isn't just about getting injured, it's also about having most of your jutsu rendered useless by someone supposedly weaker than you




> And for the 50th time RSM Naruto>>>>>BSM Naruto so that comparison is completely irrelevant since Naruto using a godly state is far stronger than Naruto not using it by every logic in this world.


And for the 50th time 19 year old RBSM naruto>>>>17 year old RSM naruto. Naruto in the last still used SPS him flying proves it as that is something only naruto can do when using SPS. Also, no use of a godly state means nothing when you don't have the feats nor stats to back it up.



> Nothing wrong in using portrayal.


Of course, just as long as it's not a crutch that you need for your argument to stand on legs. 





> He reawakened the Tenseingan which was Hamura's power, no direct strength comparison was made while the Sage directly stated that Madara was approaching his power.


And Toneri was stated to be able to recreate the earth in the event of it's destruction. By feats he still curbstomps.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> The bijuu are literally the Juubi divided into 9 parts. Since we already know half of kurama is worth more than 5 bijuu,


No. Stop using that scene.



> doubling his chakra and adding a senjutsu multiplier gets him into the Juubi's power range.


No. The juubi is equal to the sum of it's parts, which include:

9 bijuu, *all* equal in amount of chakra
The gedo mazou, which has an ass ton of chakra I.e life force.
A ridiculous amount of nature energy.
The juubi has more chakra period.



> Even Sasuke just putting bijuu chakra into his Susano'o was compared to the Gedo Mazo.


Doesn't mean it's the same power as juubi, and I don't see the relevance of this


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 30, 2018)

Kannon said:


> *all* equal in amount of chakra


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 30, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> No. Stop using that scene.
> 
> 
> No. The juubi is equal to the sum of it's parts, which include:
> ...



"stop using that scene"

because it doesn't fit into your interpretation of the Juubi's power?


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> "stop using that scene"
> 
> because it doesn't fit into your interpretation of the Juubi's power?


No. Because it's misunderstood.


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 30, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> No. Because it's misunderstood.



50% Kurama defeated 5 Bijuu, there is no way to interpret it in any other way, Kurama> 8 Bijuu.


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## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Dec 30, 2018)

@Kamalu Repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam won't make them right, BSM Naruto being above his RSM self is a ridiculous assertion that shouldn't be entertained seriously by anyone.



Kamalu said:


> Yeah, double rinnegan madara is the one toneri beats. As well as all other versions.



This right here ends all discussions, not gonna waste any more time talking with someone who believes something as  outrageously ridiculous as Toneri beating Prime JJ Madara and acts like he actually knows what he's talking about, you're either disingenuous, severely misinformed, a fanboy or a troll.


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## King1 (Dec 30, 2018)

I didn't know Naruto can bust a moon with his fists


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

Ghost Of The Uchiha said:


> @Kamalu Repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam won't make them right, BSM Naruto being above his RSM self is a ridiculous assertion that shouldn't be entertained seriously by anyone.


Why not? naruto is now permanently amped by rikudo chakra, and has the same abilities as RSM naruto, which points to that form being RSM but name fucked.
So no matter how you look at it, the form naruto used in the last was either RSM or used rikudo senjutsu.



> This right here ends all discussions, not gonna waste any more time talking with someone who believes something as  outrageously ridiculous as Toneri beating Prime JJ Madara and acts like he actually knows what he's talking about, you're either disingenuous, severely misinformed, a fanboy or a troll.


I'm neither. If you have facts that point to Prime JJ madara being stronger than TCM toneri, let me hear it, if I can't disprove them I'll change my mind.

@King1, why can't naruto moon bust with his fists?


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## King1 (Dec 30, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> why can't naruto moon bust with his fists?


Because it does not make sense. If BSM Naruto and as you like saying RS BSM Naruto can bust a moon with his fists then Adult Naruto who is far stronger than TL Naruto fists at minimum can bust a moon right? So that means Fused momo has moon busting durability as he tanked punches from naruto in RSM, a form far more powerful than TL form. We know fused momo's durability is shit as he died from a base rasengan from Naruto which someone who can tank a moon busting attack should not have died from. You see how illogical it sounds right? This same for your posts like this


Kamalu said:


> Why not? naruto is now permanently amped by rikudo chakra, and has the* same abilities as RSM naruto, *which points to that form being RSM but name fucked.


BSM Naruto DOES not have the same abilities as RSM Naruto. RSM Naruto has all the biju chakra in him and can use their abilities, has TSBs, he is faster, stronger and more durable. BSM Naruto in TL has shown none of those abilities. How can toneri beat Madara when he lost to BSM Naruto? A form weaker than RSM Naruto whom Madara is equal to?


Kamalu said:


> If you have facts that point to Prime JJ madara being stronger than TCM toneri,


Prime Madara meaning has three rinnegans, shinju Juubi jin is stronger than Adult Naruto and Sasuke individually, and Adult Naruto can literally stomp toneri so how can't madara do the same?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Dec 30, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> Why not? naruto is now permanently amped by rikudo chakra, and has the same abilities as RSM naruto, which points to that form being RSM but name fucked.
> So no matter how you look at it, the form naruto used in the last was either RSM or used rikudo senjutsu.



RSM is the mode when there's no pigmentation around the eyes which he had in the Last.

The movie guidebook also confirmed he was using Kurama Chakra Mode and not RSM, so stop bringing up that argument if you will.



Kamalu said:


> I'm neither.



I hope so.



Kamalu said:


> If you have facts that point to Prime JJ madara being stronger than TCM toneri, let me hear it, if I can't disprove them I'll change my mind.



Well now that we cleared up that he was in BSM and that RSM>> BSM consider the following;


Naruto stomped Toneri with just BSM and didn't even need the avatar

RSM Naruto has half of Hagoromo's power plus his kurama mode and all bijuu chakra
Madara pre tree or second eye is said to be getting close to the Sage's power by the Sage himself
RSM Naruto is said to have reaction speed equal or greater than that Madara in the DB
Then Madara absorbs the Shinju and Naruto activates his 9 Bijuu cloak and they're still relatively even physically (Limbo drawing blood from Naruto and clashing equally with him)
Naruto and Sasuke together overwhelm one-eyed Madara and force him to run away to get his second Rinnegan
DRJJ Madara is said to be invincible and terrifyingly more powerful by Obito, Sasuke nearly gives birth at the prospect of Madara getting both of his eyes giving us the idea that he is above them individually.
Madara appears out of the kamui dimension and says that he can now handle them no problem after getting stomped previously, launches CT and sends his shadows as a mere distraction to focus on the Tsukuyomi.
Naruto and Sasuke have to use their full power to deal with CT (7 BDFRS barrage and PS).
Madara casts Mugen which would have one-shot Naruto if not for Sasuke shielding him, Sasuke says if either of them died the other would have no chance to win, again pointing to Madara having a significant edge against them individually.

 Madara comes back from the moon and confidently states he won't let them do anything anymore and that their fight is a mere sideshow that's about to end, implying he's about to get serious.

The 4th DB in his character profile states that DRJJ Madara equals Non Jin Hagoromo or is at least on his level, this Hagoromo being someone whom Naruto cannot equal as he doesn't have the yin half.

六道の力
The power of the Rikudou (/Six Paths)

よいよ機は熟さん。。。！両眼 の ”輪廻眼”を回収し、六道の 真の力を解放するマダラ。両眼から放たれし鋭き光彩はまさに剛毅果断。またマダラの計画遂行を待ちわびんと 意志を示すが如く、月につぼみを神樹。「輪廻の力を持つ者が月に近づきし時、無限の夢を叶えるための月に映 せし眼が開く」 。。。うちは一族の石碑通り、マダラの額には「第三の眼」が開眼。 全てを否定し、忌まわしきチャ クラの無き世界を創るため...。 マダラが望んだ,「本当の夢」は今ここに完遂した…はずだった。
An excellent opportunity came to fruition…!! Recovering the “Rinnegan” for both of his eyes, Madara unleashes the true power of the Six Paths!
Consider that prime Madara is even stronger as he has the third eye as well
If you still believe Toneri is stronger than one eyed Madara let alone prime madara (whom he has no business even being in the same room as), then i rest my case and i just agree to disagree.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

King1 said:


> Because it does not make sense. If BSM Naruto and as you like saying RS BSM Naruto can bust a moon with his fists then Adult Naruto who is far stronger than TL Naruto fists at minimum can bust a moon right?


If he can focus all his chakra(basically chakra mode) for a chakra enhanced strength punch, yes. Yes he can.



> So that means Fused momo has moon busting durability as he tanked punches from naruto in RSM, a form far more powerful than TL form.


I think you misunderstood me. Naruto only has moon busting punches when he concentrates all his chakra into a punch, like sakura and tsunade, except more powerful.
And the form naruto used in TL is stronger than 17 year old RSM. Go ahead, provide feats that prove me wrong. Or just tell me why they are different.
Also momoshiki wasn't tanking punches that were focused chakra hits.



> We know fused momo's durability is shit as he died from a base rasengan from Naruto


You say base rasengan like this is 12 year old naruto performing the rasengan. The rasengan that killed momoshiki was a six paths Ultrabigball Rasenshuriken. That puts it at multi mountain buster a the very least.



> which someone who can tank a moon busting attack should not have died from.


Except he wasn't tanking moon level attacks at all.



> You see how illogical it sounds right? This same for your posts like this


Read carefully next time before you post.



> BSM Naruto DOES not have the same abilities as RSM Naruto. RSM Naruto has all the biju chakra in him and can use their abilities, (1)has TSBs, (2)he is faster, (3)stronger and (4)more durable. BSM Naruto in TL has shown none of those abilities. How can toneri beat Madara when he lost to BSM Naruto? A form weaker than RSM Naruto whom Madara is equal to?


Yeah let's see what they both share in common.

Flight.
All the chakra of the bijuu, (boruto ep 48 and shikamaru shinden confirm it)
Understanding of all things(how naruto could know he could pull the orb outta hinata's chest)
Sounds a lot like RSM. As for your other points:

TSB's aren't that much of an advantage against someone who has six paths senjutsu. Naruto can use clones, rasen variants and chakra arms for the same things he does with TSB's.
GWRE should logically be well over light speed seeing as how it crossed the moon's diameter in a few seconds, In a scene where time was slowed down so the audience could see the fight happen from naruto's perspective.
What strength feats does RSM have anyway? And what stops TL naruto from repeating it?
The best durability feat for 17 year old RSM naruto is losing his chakra mode after a collision between six paths Osama bijuurasenshuriken and Indra's arrow. TL naruto shits on it by taking moon busting force without a scratch.



> Prime Madara meaning has three rinnegans,


Which give him four limbo clones and a genjutsu. No stat boost for anyone, and no space time jutsu since that is kaguya's ability.



> shinju Juubi jin is stronger than Adult Naruto and Sasuke individually,


Based on what feats? Chakra amount/level isn't enough to come to that conclusion. This manga has shown that several times.



> and Adult Naruto can literally stomp toneri so how can't madara do the same?



Naruto and Toneri fight for one hour.
Naruto punches him with all his power backing it, and he doesn't kill toneri
If it weren't for hinata and hamura's chakra, naruto would be dead now.
Oh look Toneri's weak!!!
On the other hand:

Naruto and madara's "fight" doesn't last for more than 10 chapters
Said fight consists of madara throwing everything he's got and naruto countering effortlessly
If weren't for black zetsu shit diffing madara, naruto world would have two moons now.
Oh look Madara's strong!!
So, Naruto was stomping Madara right? And Naruto had a hard fight fight against toneri right? Madara>Toneri is the conclusion everyone jumps to.


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 30, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> No. Because it's misunderstood.



No it's not.

You tried to point out that it also has nature energy and the gedo mazo.

The only time the Gedo Mazo has performed an action without already having multiple bijuu inside it was when it drained Nagato's life force to act. It has life energy inside it, but that's not the same as chakra. It's really just a wood statue.

Nature energy is what you get when you add Sage Mode to kurama. So, that's already present. 

He's got all the ingredients. He's a giant Juubi cake.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

Ghost Of The Uchiha said:


> RSM is the mode when there's no pigmentation around the eyes which he had in the Last.


Rikudo senjutsu is when he flies which he does in the Last.



> The movie guidebook also confirmed he was using Kurama Chakra Mode and not RSM, so stop bringing up that argument if you will.


Okay. He used rikudo senjutsu, not RSM.




> Well now that we cleared up that he was in *Rikudo*BSM and that *19 yr old* R*B*SM>> *17 yr old R*SM consider the following;


FTFY



> Naruto stomped Toneri with just BSM and didn't even need the avatar


Naruto had an hour long fight with Toneri. The avatar is meaningless since it doesn't increase his attack potency, it reduces his speed and agility and is not durable anyway. 

If you don't want to accept it, fine. he also didn't use the avatar against madara and kaguya.



> RSM Naruto has half of Hagoromo's power plus his kurama mode and all bijuu chakra


Base naruto was the one who received half of hagoromo's power. What you're saying is that sasuke only has half of hagoromo's chakra when using the rinnegan. And all bijuu chakra is something BSM has as well, as proven by naruto pulling out the bijuu from juubito because he had their chakra.



> Madara pre tree or second eye is said to be getting close to the Sage's power by the Sage himself


Statement is vague. How close is he? 50%, 60, 65? No one knows. 

Also statement wise, toneri said he could recreate the earth in the event of it's destruction. So moot point.



> RSM Naruto is said to have reaction speed equal or greater than that Madara in the DB


Probably greater seeing as how he was blitzing madara and reacting to madara easily. And let me guess, RSM naruto>Madara. Rikudo amp BSM naruto= Toneri, Madara stomps amiright? Well no. Naruto grew stronger over the two year interval, and could just be as fast as RSM when he's in his second strongest form, which only has a cosmetic difference to him.



> Then Madara absorbs the Shinju and Naruto activates his 9 Bijuu cloak and they're still relatively even physically (Limbo drawing blood from Naruto and clashing equally with him)


Nope. Naruto was almost blitzing madara in base RSM. 9 bijuu cloak RSM was far above madara, as he was capable of almost blitzing him before limbo saved him.



> Naruto and Sasuke together overwhelm one-eyed Madara and force him to run away to get his second Rinnegan


Naruto alone did most of the heavy lifting, sasuke was just support. Madara was also already trying to get his second rinnegan anyway.



> DRJJ Madara is said to be invincible and terrifyingly more powerful by Obito, Sasuke nearly gives birth at the prospect of Madara getting both of his eyes giving us the idea that he is above them individually.


Yet, all he gets are three more limbo and an eye that let's him cast IT, basically his plan all along. Sasuke and Obito were terrified by unfounded hype and the knowledge that he could cast IT.



> Madara appears out of the kamui dimension and says that he can now handle them no problem after getting stomped previously, launches CT and sends his shadows as a mere distraction to focus on the Tsukuyomi.


More statements. His CT is effortlessly destroyed, limbo is dealt with by shadow clones and tsukuyomi is rendered ineffective by susano'o.



> Naruto and Sasuke have to use their full power to deal with CT (7 BDFRS barrage and PS).


Obviously nowhere near their full power because they didn't get exhausted nor did they say they were tired, and It was all done casually.



> Madara casts Mugen which would have one-shot Naruto if not for Sasuke shielding him,


True.



> Sasuke says if either of them died the other would have no chance to win, again pointing to Madara having a significant edge against them individually.


He was talking about the fact that if one died, they would have no way to cancel IT or seal madara. Nothing about a physical advantage.



> Madara comes back from the moon and confidently states he won't let them do anything anymore and that their fight is a mere sideshow that's about to end, implying he's about to get serious.


And that is just a statement which means nothing.



> The 4th DB in his character profile states that DRJJ Madara equals Non Jin Hagoromo or is at least on his level,


Statements. Again Toneri is planet level by statements.



> this Hagoromo being someone whom Naruto cannot equal as he doesn't have the yin half.


But he has kurama and the tailed beasts chakra, which makes up for it.



> 六道の力
> The power of the Rikudou (/Six Paths)
> 
> よいよ機は熟さん。。。！両眼 の ”輪廻眼”を回収し、六道の 真の力を解放するマダラ。両眼から放たれし鋭き光彩はまさに剛毅果断。またマダラの計画遂行を待ちわびんと 意志を示すが如く、月につぼみを神樹。「輪廻の力を持つ者が月に近づきし時、無限の夢を叶えるための月に映 せし眼が開く」 。。。うちは一族の石碑通り、マダラの額には「第三の眼」が開眼。 全てを否定し、忌まわしきチャ クラの無き世界を創るため...。 マダラが望んだ,「本当の夢」は今ここに完遂した…はずだった。
> An excellent opportunity came to fruition…!! Recovering the “Rinnegan” for both of his eyes, Madara unleashes the true power of the Six Paths!


A statement. No feats at all. 



> Consider that prime Madara is even stronger as he has the third eye as well


And the only thing he can do is cast IT with it, nothing else.


> If you still believe Toneri is stronger than one eyed Madara let alone prime madara (whom he has no business even being in the same room as), then i rest my case and i just agree to disagree.


Yeah, let's agree to disagree


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> No it's not.


Yes it is.



> The only time the Gedo Mazo has performed an action without already having multiple bijuu inside it was when it drained Nagato's life force to act. It has life energy inside it, but that's not the same as chakra. It's really just a wood statue.


Life energy is the same as chakra, evidenced by the uzumaki, known for their strong *life forces*, a.k.a chakra.



> Nature energy is what you get when you add Sage Mode to kurama. So, that's already present.


Yeah, but in much greater quantities.



> He's got all the ingredients. He's a giant Juubi cake.


With 9 times lesser chakra, no six paths senjutsu et cetera. You know the drill.


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 30, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> 
> Life energy is the same as chakra, evidenced by the uzumaki, known for their strong *life forces*, a.k.a chakra.
> ...



You combine life energy with mental energy to make chakra. 

Goddamn if that isn't a concession


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 30, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> You combine life energy with mental energy to make chakra.
> 
> Goddamn if that isn't a concession


And when the juubi is formed, what stops it from combining the energy of the mazo with it's own mental energies?

EDIT: In fact, fuck it. What mental energy do the fruits that kaguya and the otsutsuki eat and harvest contain?


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## King1 (Dec 30, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> If he can focus all his chakra(basically chakra mode) for a chakra enhanced strength punch, yes. Yes he can.


You are speaking in theory which you have no proof to suggest he can bust a moon with CES. Hell Madara has more chakra than Naruto so him too can bust a moon with his punch too right? 


Kamalu said:


> I think you misunderstood me.* Naruto only has moon busting punches when he concentrates all his chakra into a punch,* like sakura and tsunade, except more powerful.


Then you don't mind providing feats to back up your theory yeah? Hell kaguya tanked Naruto's strongest physical attack when kukou raised his chakra to the boiling point to maximize the damage output but you don't see people saying kaguya has moon level durability do you?


Kamalu said:


> And the form naruto used in TL is stronger than 17 year old RSM. Go ahead, provide feats that prove me wrong. Or just tell me why they are different.


>17 year old RSM Naruto has the feats of overpowering kaguya's 80 Gods vacuum palm, which was able to one shot sasuke's PS which is more durable than RSM and BSM Naruto. 
> Has the feats of dodging light fang which was hyped to be light speed or relativistic via DBs and keeping up with Madara and Sasuke who are faster than TL Naruto
> Has far more fire power ,  and 
> Faster and has superior reaction speed by reacting to kaguya's attack and blitzing her when she was weakened
> Has TSB and all chakra natures
Now tell me if TL Naruto has or can do any of those things


Kamalu said:


> Also momoshiki wasn't tanking punches that were focused chakra hits


And toneri tanked it, so are you saying he has moon level durability now? So he can't die from a normal rasengan? If toneri can tank it then why can't momo who is as strong as RSM Adult Naruto


Kamalu said:


> You say base rasengan like this is 12 year old naruto performing the rasengan. The rasengan that killed momoshiki was a six paths* Ultrabigball Rasenshuriken*. That puts it at* multi mountain buster* a the very least.


Are you trolling me? How is a Rasenshuriken? That's a cho odama rasengan and it was not six paths since he was in base and not RSM. 
@bold: Stop talking about things you have no knowledge on 


Kamalu said:


> Except he wasn't tanking moon level attacks at all.


Toneri did yet he didn't die, are you saying toneri has moon level durability?


Kamalu said:


> Read carefully next time before you post.


You should take your own advice as you clearly don't know what you are saying 


Kamalu said:


> Flight.
> 
> *All the chakra of the bijuu*, (boruto ep 48 and shikamaru shinden confirm it)
> 
> Understanding of all things(how naruto could know he could pull the orb outta hinata's chest)


No he doesn't @bold, only RSM Naruto have all chakra of the biju as that's the only time he can use their chakra. 


Kamalu said:


> TSB's aren't that much of an advantage against someone who has six paths senjutsu. Naruto can use clones, rasen variants and chakra arms for the same things he does with TSB's.


Not saying it was an advantage, was listing what he has that TL Naruto doesn't


Kamalu said:


> GWRE should logically be well over *light speed* seeing as how it crossed the moon's diameter in a few seconds, In a scene where time was slowed down so the audience could see the fight happen from naruto's perspective.


Don't talk about things you have no knowledge about 


Kamalu said:


> What strength feats does RSM have anyway? And what stops TL naruto from repeating it?


Over powering kaguya's attack that one shotted PS. What stops TL Naruto from replicating it is that he lacks the superior chakra and mode of RSM Naruto. Lacks the biju chakra which was what RSM Naruto used to over power her attack


Kamalu said:


> The best durability feat for 17 year old RSM naruto is losing his chakra mode after a collision between six paths Osama bijuurasenshuriken and Indra's arrow. TL naruto shits on it by taking moon busting force without a scratch.


Are you implying by this statement that TL Naruto is more durable than RSM Naruto Avatar and BPS ?


Kamalu said:


> Which give him four limbo clones and a genjutsu. No stat boost for anyone, and no space time jutsu since that is kaguya's ability


But it gives him an hax that one shots Naruto IT, has much more chakra than Naruto, can do everything naruto can and more, can tank all of his attacks etc. 


Kamalu said:


> Based on what feats? Chakra amount/level isn't enough to come to that conclusion. This manga has shown that several times.


The fact that he can one shot Naruto via IT, the fact that he can do what naruto can, the fact that ninjutsu is useless in front of him via petra path and deva path, the fact that he has many techs that renders them useless in front of him


Kamalu said:


> Naruto and Toneri fight for one hour.
> Naruto punches him with all his power backing it, and he doesn't kill toneri
> If it weren't for hinata and hamura's chakra, naruto would be dead now.
> Oh look Toneri's weak!!!
> ...


When did naruto fight madara alone?

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2018)

MarF said:


> 19 year old Naruto > 17 year old Naruto.
> 
> Dunno why this is so hard to understand.


Cuz 19 Naruto used an inferior mode 

A VASTLY inferior mode


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> There's not.


There REALLY is champ


Ultrafragor said:


> The bijuu are literally the Juubi divided into 9 parts. Since we already know half of kurama is worth more than 5 bijuu, doubling his chakra and adding a senjutsu multiplier gets him into the Juubi's power range.


The Juubis power isnt additive 

How the fuck can there be people who cant understand this shit 

The Juubi with only 7 fucking pieces of itself beat teh Piss out of Kurama whos comparable to 5 damn Biju...And Kurama also had the aid of Gyuki at the time...

If the Juubis power was additive, that would have been fucking impossible.

Kurama also blatantly refers to the Juubis power as IMMEASURABLE...He wouldnt have doine that if simply doubling his power got him "in range" of the Juubi

Please wake up

THE JUUBI EXCEEDS THE SUM OF ITS PARTS


Ultrafragor said:


> Even Sasuke just putting bijuu chakra into his Susano'o was compared to the Gedo Mazo.


Because their chakra wasnt individual anymore but combined into one as stated by Kurama 

Which is what the Juubis power does 

Which isnt additive


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## sabre320 (Dec 31, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz 19 Naruto used an inferior mode
> 
> A VASTLY inferior mode


The problem is this isnt even remotely close to simple bsm....rikudo chakra has become a part of his base reserves and his bsm has become amped y rikudo chakra hence him flying and touching tsb in bsm. To put it into perspective the jump that naruto gained after successfully integrated rikudo chakra into his base is ....compare the durability of both characters war arc and last....naruto got his freaking arm blown by a simple rasengan chidori clash..in the last he tanked a freaking explosion fueled by all his rikudo reserves and kuramas in a country sized explosion while unconcious.....do you see the thousand fold difference? His feats simply eclipse his feats in base rsm from the war arc .


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 31, 2018)

King1 said:


> You are speaking in theory which you have no proof to suggest he can bust a moon with CES. Hell Madara has more chakra than Naruto so him too can bust a moon with his punch too right?


Nope. Madara doesn't use that technique, so he can't.



> Then you don't mind providing feats to back up your theory yeah? Hell kaguya tanked Naruto's strongest physical attack when kukou raised his chakra to the boiling point to maximize the damage output but you don't see people saying kaguya has moon level durability do you?


>Naruto punches kaguya with steam. Nothing happens.
>A fucking chakra claw dismembers her arm.
>Naruto's steampunch is his strongest physical
Yeah. Read the manga and stop embarrassing yourself.



> >17 year old RSM Naruto has the feats of overpowering kaguya's 80 Gods vacuum palm,


Lies I say. 
Naruto was the one being overpowered



> which was able to one shot sasuke's PS which is more durable than RSM and BSM Naruto.


PS is not that durable. It was badly damaged from a bijuudama and chidori collision
Another fucking lie.



> > Has the feats of dodging light fang which was hyped to be light speed or relativistic via DBs


It is light speed.



> and keeping up with Madara and Sasuke who are faster than TL Naruto


You mean blitzing them effortlessly. I can get scans for madara and sasuke. Again your logic

Naruto>>>Madara and sasuke
Madara and Sasuke>>>naruto



> > Has far more fire power ,  and


Naruto from the last can replicate all this easily. He already performed a bijuu rasenshuriken against toneri. Toneri just blocked it with his TSB.



> > Faster and has superior reaction speed by reacting to kaguya's attack and blitzing her when she was weakened


Which naruto from the last can do. He already blitzed juubito in pre rikudo BSM, nothing stops him from doing it again to kaguya in post rikudo form with six paths senjutsu.



> > Has TSB and all chakra natures


TSB were countered the moment naruto used senjutsu, they're useless against someone who uses six paths senjutsu, which I have proven the last naruto was using. Naruto also lost his TSB and can no longer recover them. All chakra natures is something base naruto in boruto can do(ep 65)



> Now tell me if TL Naruto has or can do any of those things


I already have.



> And toneri tanked it, so are you saying he has moon level durability now?


Yeah. It makes sense. His durability scales to his AP

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: 
Toneri doesn't lose his chakra cloak when he uses his techniques. It was established in the manga that characters with chakra modes or cloaks lose their forms if they put too much chakra into a technique

Naruto can initially only form two rasenshuriken in sage mode before he tires out, and needs to re-enter sage mode:


His limit increases to three in the war arc:


An attempt to create the bijuudama by his KCM clone fails and he loses his chakra mode:


So, it proves toneri's durability is much higher than moon level







> So he can't die from a normal rasengan?


He can't as long as he's in his chakra mode. In base, he scales to base naruto who tanked that huge explosion.



> If toneri can tank it then why can't momo who is as strong as RSM Adult Naruto


Strength is not equal to durability. Momoshiki doesn't have a chakra mode amping his stats. He also wasn't killed by a normal rasengan.



> Are you trolling me? How is a Rasenshuriken?


Typo.



> That's a cho odama rasengan and it was not six paths since he was in base and not RSM.


Naruto's base form is permanently amped by six paths chakra. 



> @bold: Stop talking about things you have no knowledge on


The irony.



> Toneri did yet he didn't die, are you saying toneri has moon level durability?


Yes.



> You should take your own advice as you clearly don't know what you are saying


And you haven't proven me wrong yet.



> No he doesn't @bold, only RSM Naruto have all chakra of the biju as that's the only time he can use their chakra.


Explain why pre-rikudo BSM naruto, and even gaara could pull out the bijuu from obito, because they have their chakra. You're wrong again. They were using their chakra before RSM.



> Not saying it was an advantage, was listing what he has that TL Naruto doesn't


So you admit, it's irrelevant. Okay.



> Don't talk about things you have no knowledge about


What a counter.



> Over powering kaguya's attack that one shotted PS.


Already proved this wrong. Naruto was the one that was overpowered.



> What stops TL Naruto from replicating it is that he lacks the superior chakra and mode of RSM Naruto.
> Lacks the biju chakra which was what RSM Naruto used to over power her attack


Proved this wrong too. Read the manga, kid.



> Are you implying by this statement that TL Naruto is more durable than RSM Naruto Avatar and BPS ?


No. RSM ashura avatar and BPS were special circumstances and aren't a typical part of their arsenal. 

But anyways, good luck proving they have moon level durability, I really don't care



> But it gives him an hax that one shots Naruto IT,


But was only used once. And needs a moon to reflect it's light.



> has much more chakra than Naruto,


Means nothing. One eyed JJ madara had more chakra than naruto, gai and sasuke, but it didn't stop them from stomping him.



> can do everything naruto can and more,


Nope. No rasengan. And is still weaker.



> can tank all of his attacks etc.


Nope, double rinnegan doesn't increase durability at all.



> The fact that he can one shot Naruto via IT,


Yet he does it once and needs a moon to do it.

[/QUOTE]the fact that he can do what naruto can,[/QUOTE]
No.



> the fact that ninjutsu is useless in front of him via petra path and deva path,


Madara uses deva path for chibaku tensei mostly. Preta path is something he stopped using once he became the juubi jin. Also toneri moving the moon(deva path) and absorbing all of naruto chakra with puppet rebirth far outclass anything madara has.



> the fact that he has many techs that renders them useless in front of him


Many techs he doesn't use, therefore are featless and toneri's TSB tank easily.



> When did naruto fight madara alone?


You know what I mean. Sasuke was basically just support in that battle. Naruto could have stomped him fine on his own.


----------



## King1 (Dec 31, 2018)

Kamalu said:


> Nope. Madara doesn't use that technique, so he can't.


Doesn't matter as in theory he can as all that's needed is to put chakra into your fist and release on impact like sakura and tsunade did and it needs to user have excellent chakra control something madara has


Kamalu said:


> >Naruto punches kaguya with steam. Nothing happens.
> >A fucking chakra claw dismembers her arm.
> >Naruto's steampunch is his strongest physical
> Yeah. Read the manga and stop embarrassing yourself.


This kid seriously need to stop acting big when he is spouting flawed arguments, it's unsightly
Well, lemme show you how flawed your argument is since you said naruto can bust a moon with his CES Punch. Here, Momo tanked and held like nothing, here  which is far stronger than TL Naruto punch. Does that mean momo and the TSBs have moon level strength and durability? 


Kamalu said:


> Lies I say.
> Naruto was the one being overpowered


I think you should read the manga before you accuse your senior of lying. Here was , and when he overpowered her vaccum palm. 


Kamalu said:


> PS is not that durable. It was badly damaged from a bijuudama and chidori collision
> Another fucking lie.


So TL Naruto is more durable than PS which is equal to RSM Naruto? Is that what you are implying? 


Kamalu said:


> It is light speed.


To you, it was never stated to be light speed in the manga


Kamalu said:


> You mean blitzing them effortlessly. I can get scans for madara and sasuke. Again your logic


 Provide scan of naruto blitzing madara, while you are at it, provide scan of him blitzing sasuke too 


Kamalu said:


> Naruto from the last can replicate all this easily. He already performed a bijuu rasenshuriken against toneri. Toneri just blocked it with his TSB.


Please provide the feats of TL Naruto performing the things I listed then


Kamalu said:


> Which naruto from the last can do. He already blitzed juubito in pre rikudo BSM,


Provide scan of him blitzing juubito then lol 


Kamalu said:


> TSB were countered the moment naruto used senjutsu, they're useless against someone who uses six paths senjutsu, which I have proven the last naruto was using. Naruto also lost his TSB and can no longer recover them. All chakra natures is something base naruto in boruto can do(ep 65


Can you for once try to be honest when debating? There is nothing worse than someone who debates dishonestly just to make his argument hold substance. Naruto did not use RSM in TL. He used BSM, everyone knows this.He was able to touch toneri's TSBs due to having six paths chakra just like sasuke being able to touch it due to having six paths chakra


Kamalu said:


> I already have.


Then prove he can, you can't just spout your opinions in debates without proving it. Provide feats


Kamalu said:


> Yeah. It makes sense. His durability scales to his AP


Then so is momoshiki since he held naruto CES punch like nothing. According to you it has moon level striking capability which momo was not fazed by which means momo has moon level durability but apparently he was killed by a cho odama rasengan 


Kamalu said:


> He can't as long as he's in his chakra mode. In base, he scales to base naruto who tanked that huge explosion.


And momo died from a base naruto cho odama rasengan, wow shocker 


Kamalu said:


> Strength is not equal to durability. Momoshiki doesn't have a chakra mode amping his stats. He also wasn't killed by a normal rasengan.


Yet he has the feats of holding and tanking a CES Punch from adult naruto. He does not need chakra mode when he is as strong and fast as adult naruto when he is in RSM Mode. He was killed by an attack that is not even country level while he is apparently moon level in durability 


Kamalu said:


> Typo.


Sure


Kamalu said:


> Naruto's base form is permanently amped by six paths chakra.


Just because he has it does not mean he was using six paths chakra in that rasengan. We know from the fact that just because you are in SM does not mean your attacks automatically has senjutsu in them as  likewise YOU have no proof that the cho odama he used against momo had six paths chakra in it


Kamalu said:


> The irony.





Kamalu said:


> Yes.


Likewise momo and TSBs 


Kamalu said:


> And you haven't proven me wrong yet.


The fact that you can't see how wrong you are is already astonishing


Kamalu said:


> Explain why pre-rikudo BSM naruto, and even gaara could pull out the bijuu from obito, because they have their chakra. You're wrong again. They were using their chakra before RSM.


Kid, Naruto did not have all the chakra from the biju as he only had 7 biju chakra unlike RSM when he has all. He has not used any of their jutsu in BSM unlike when he was in RSM. 


Kamalu said:


> What a counter.


You just said toneri's moon attack is light speed, if you truly believe that then it shows how far you are willing to stoop tbh 


Kamalu said:


> Already proved this wrong. Naruto was the one that was overpowered.


Already addressed


Kamalu said:


> Proved this wrong too. Read the manga, kid.


Then show me BSM Naruto using the biju jutsus. 


Kamalu said:


> But anyways, good luck proving they have moon level durability, I really don't care


They are apparently since a moon level durability guy (momo) from your logic was killed by a cho odama rasengan by base naruto whilst that same rasengan will not even scratch PS 



Kamalu said:


> But was only used once. And needs a moon to reflect it's light.


Kid, did you read the manga at all before you quoted me? Madara does not need the moon to cast IT, he needs the moon to cast it on the whole world not for one person. To cast IT, and have the rinnesharingan, something madara has since he is the JJ and has rinnesharingan


Kamalu said:


> Means nothing. One eyed JJ madara had more chakra than naruto, gai and sasuke, but it didn't stop them from stomping him


But he has the hax to stomp them bar sasuke


Kamalu said:


> Nope. No rasengan. And is still weaker.


Kakashi can do rasengan by copying it yet you think madara who has RSM and Rinnegan which means can use all chakra natures can't?


Kamalu said:


> Yet he does it once and needs a moon to do it.


Already addressed


Kamalu said:


> Many techs he doesn't use, therefore are featless and toneri's TSB tank easily.


Assuming madara does not have TSBs, assuming madara cannot overpower toneri like naruto did


Kamalu said:


> You know what I mean. Sasuke was basically just support in that battle. Naruto could have stomped him fine on his own.


Are you trolling me or you actually believe everything you typed? Who was the person that figured out madara's ability? Cool down time, how to defeat him? Who was the person that enabled naruto to tag him? Who was the person that blitz madara in half? Kid, do you really know what you are saying? You call me kid and come at me with that condescending attitude trying to belittle me and my argument when I was respecting your argument by replying to it even though it's laughable and everyone here thinks you are trolling hence why they didn't respond and quote you. Are you trolling? or did you actually think you had a chance going that far above your weight class?

Reactions: Like 1


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## MarF (Dec 31, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz 19 Naruto used an inferior mode
> 
> A VASTLY inferior mode



The only thing inferior about it is the orange pigmentation around the eyes, remove that and not a single serious poster here would argue for War arc Naruto > TL Naruto.

Featwise TL Naruto is blatantly superior to his War arc self in absolutely every way. Whether its speed, power or skill.

@King1 All upper God tiers sit at ~ Moon level to various degrees. Or higher in Kaguya's case.

>Juubidara's casual CT spam was calced in the Multi continent to Moon range.
>Toneri cutting through the Moon is at minimum Multi Continent lvl and him overpowering its GBE with the same attack is a ~Moon lvl feat. Him moving the entire moon with telekinesis is a small planet lvl feat.
> TL Naruto straight up punched through Toneri's sword and also facetanked it.
>Kaguya even when lowballed to the extreme is Planet+ lvl. Her expanding Gudoudama was going to destroy an entire dimension and recreate it afterwards. A Dimension that has a planet in it and is big enough to have a moon orbit around it. It also has a day/night cycle implying a sun...

Momo was hyped to be a threat in the same ballpark as Kaguya, he gets scaled to Moon level based on that and his feats. Him dying to a base COR means that Base Naruto's COR is also moon level just to a higher unquantifiable degree than Momo's durability and to a lesser unquantifiable degree than what cloaked Naruto's COR would be.

tl/dr:

Momo's Durability - Moon level+ scaling from TL Naruto and Toneri
Base Naruto's COR - Moon level++
RSM Naruto's COR - Moon level+++

All in the same tier just higher and lower to an unquantifiable degree.

Gap

Kaguya's expanding Truthseeker - Planet+ to potentially Star level.

Nobody scales to this so they are all stuck at Moon to Small planet level until somebody weaker or around the same power as Naruto and co has a higher feat than they can be scaled to.



> Just because he has it does not mean he was using six paths chakra in that rasengan. We know from the fact that just because you are in SM does not mean your attacks automatically has senjutsu in them as  likewise YOU have no proof that the cho odama he used against momo had six paths chakra in it



I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with that panel BM Minato created a Rasengan and BSM Naruto added his own NE infused Chakra into it later on turning it into a senjutsu infused Rasengan.

Whether or not it's influenced by Six Paths Chara doesn't even matter tbh. Fact is it killed Momo who scales to Toneri who in turn sits at Moon level.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 31, 2018)

King1 said:


> Doesn't matter as in theory he can as all that's needed is to put chakra into your fist and release on impact like sakura and tsunade did and it needs to user have excellent chakra control something madara has


Yeah madara can do so, but he doesn't do so. You need to show him doing CES for you to say he can do it.



> This kid seriously need to stop acting big when he is spouting flawed arguments, it's unsightly


Advice you desperately need.



> Well, lemme show you how flawed your argument is since you said naruto can bust a moon with his CES Punch. Here, Momo tanked and held like nothing, here  which is far stronger than TL Naruto punch. Does that mean momo and the TSBs have moon level strength and durability?


I'm dealing with a retard. God help me.
CES power output depends on chakra put into it. The punch used by naruto in the Last had *ALL *his chakra mode(powerful enough to withstand the moonsplitter). That's why it's moon level.

Madara on the other hand weren't hit by CES that had moon level chakra in it. If naruto had concentrated ALL his chakra into that punch, he wouldn't be in RSM as he shown to be in.

As for momoshiki, it looks tricky, but ask yourself this, You use your most powerful taijutsu on your enemy and he blocks it easily. Do you:

Freak out because your only option is basically ineffective, or
Smile enthusiastically, then proceed to use weaker taijutsu on the enemy.
Naruto picked option 2, which means he's either insane or he just didn't put that much chakra into the punch. Which makes sense.



> I think you should read the manga before you accuse your senior of lying.


Who is my senior here?



> Here was , and when he overpowered her vaccum palm.


I just looked and it turns out, you're right. Never did notice that thing was a palm. Anyway, naruto surprise attacked her, she wasn't expecting his counter, so she used lesser power.



> So TL Naruto is more durable than PS which is equal to RSM Naruto? Is that what you are implying?


I'm not implying it, that's what happened. And no, PS isn't equal to RSM naruto, at all.



> To you, it was never stated to be light speed in the manga


But kishimoto goes out of his way to say it's light speed twice.



> Provide scan of naruto blitzing madara, while you are at it, provide scan of him blitzing sasuke too


Naruto blitzed and destroyed Juudara, in base RSM before he could even think to fully form his TSB which operate on thought. 

As for sasuke, he didn't directly blitz him, but by comparing with a common opponent (kaguya), you can see naruto can easily deal with sasuke in a blitz.



> Please provide the feats of TL Naruto performing the things I listed then


You know I can't. But I see you ignored the bijuu rasenshuriken(kurama powered) used against toneri.



> Provide scan of him blitzing juubito then lol


 1, 2, 3
Explanation

Before Obito can fully extend his TSB (which operate on thought), 


before Minato can use Hiraishin (Keep in mind he just used it pointblank against the Raikage as he was less than an inch away from his face for a sneak attack,here) Naruto extended his Chakra arms to him and Sasuke

 Naruto remembered what Minato said in that short timeframe and acted before Obito could close his hand essentially.




> Can you for once try to be honest when debating? There is nothing worse than someone who debates dishonestly just to make his argument hold substance.


Funny this is coming from you.



> Naruto did not use RSM in TL. He used BSM, everyone knows this.


True. But rikudo chakra plus senjutsu equals rikudo senjutsu, add in the bijuu chakra which I proved he, and it's RSM in all but name and cosmetics.



> He was able to touch toneri's TSBs due to having six paths chakra just like sasuke being able to touch it due to having six paths chakra


You can't interact with TSB's with only six paths chakra. Don't provide that scan of sasuke standing on *Naruto's *TSB as proof. They're allies and as such naruto has no reason to leave the disintegration effect on. So please, do use your brain.



> Then so is momoshiki since he held naruto CES punch like nothing.


No it's not you idiot. Momoshiki lacks a chakra cloak and mode. That means he doesn't scale. You understand?



> According to you it has moon level striking capability which momo was not fazed by which means momo has moon level durability


Already addressed this.



> but apparently he was killed by a cho odama rasengan


That was rikudo amped. Keep up, slowpoke. Also sasuke's base chidori can vaporize a huge meteor. Naruto's rasengan equals that easily. Now imagine what a giant rasengan can do.



> And momo died from a base naruto cho odama rasengan, wow shocker


Already explained this. Not my fault somebody's parents wasted money on their education.



> Yet he has the feats of holding and tanking a CES Punch from adult naruto.


Already explained this.



> He does not need chakra mode when he is as strong and fast as adult naruto when he is in RSM Mode.


True. But he ain't as durable.



> He was killed by an attack that is not even country level while he is apparently moon level in durability


>chidori can overcome and reverse the momentum of a meteor half the size of konoha before vaporizing it.
>Cho odama rasengan bigger than it and more powerful, is not country level

Because king1 says so I guess.



> Just because he has it does not mean he was using six paths chakra in that rasengan.


It also doesn't me he wasn't using six paths chakra in it. And I hope you realize naruto's normal chakra is now six paths chakra, right.



> We know from the fact that just because you are in SM does not mean your attacks automatically has senjutsu in them as


 are you confused? Lord help me, you're insane. Quick question:

 *Who *created the rasengan? Minato.
 Was he in SM? No. 
Who added the senjutsu? Bijuu *Sage *Mode Naruto.
Please get help, it seems you may have seeing problems, if not mental ones.



> likewise YOU have no proof that the cho odama he used against momo had six paths chakra in it


So do you for the opposite scenario. And please, tell me why naruto would not put in rikudo chakra, when that's the only kind he has apart from bijuu chakra and SPS chakra.



> Likewise momo and TSBs


What? You mean TBB's. Momo may have teleported at the last second or he may just be that durable.




> The fact that you can't see how wrong you are is already astonishing


If I'm wrong, prove it. But seeing your spectacular fail up there, I doubt you can. You're just gonna insult away. Useful life skill.



> Kid, Naruto did not have all the chakra from the biju as he only had 7 biju chakra unlike RSM when he has all.


Your quote says:



> No he doesn't @bold, only RSM Naruto have all chakra of the biju *as that's the only time he can use their chakra.*


That scan was to show the bolded was wrong. He can use their chakra at any time, in any form, even in pre rikudo forms. He's their jinchuuriki, he's basically a stronger ginkaku, he can use their chakra anytime he wants to.



> He has not used any of their jutsu in BSM unlike when he was in RSM.


Do tell me how useful an ink rasengan is? Better yet, tell me any other time he used all bijuu chakra apart from the war arc.



> You just said toneri's moon attack is light speed, if you truly believe that then it shows how far you are willing to stoop tbh


I used to believe it was slower, until I considered this.


*Spoiler*: __ 



lets use Human numbers of the worlds fastest punch(as this is just an example) to calc how fast the moon splitting happens. Moons Diameter 2,159Miles x Worlds fastest punch (0.02 seconds) = 107,950 Mps (Keep in mind light is 186k mps), is the speed of the slice. Meaning the beam was fully extended before he made contact with the moon so I'm gonna say 0.01 seconds is the time in which it extended.2,159 x 0.01 seconds = 215,900MpS 







> Then show me BSM Naruto using the biju jutsus.


Don't have to. Using their chakra is enough.



> They are apparently since a moon level durability guy (momo) from your logic was killed by a cho odama rasengan by base naruto whilst that same rasengan will not even scratch PS


I've already addressed this. And PS is not that durable.




> Kid, did you read the manga at all before you quoted me? Madara does not need the moon to cast IT, he needs the moon to cast it on the whole world not for one person. To cast IT, and have the rinnesharingan, something madara has since he is the JJ and has rinnesharingan


But he didn't have the rinnesharingan when he pulled it on obito. And we know he, obito and kaguya don't use IT in combat freely. 



> But he has the hax to stomp them bar sasuke


True. But you would think he uses it directly on them more freely, suggesting IT is situational and can't be used in the middle of combat.



> Kakashi can do rasengan by copying it yet you think madara who has RSM and Rinnegan which means can use all chakra natures can't?


He can, but he doesn't. It's part of his character. 



> Assuming madara does not have TSBs, assuming madara cannot overpower toneri like naruto did


Assuming TSB's do something to toneri, assuming madara will do the exact same thing as naruto when he doesn't know CES and doesn't do it.



> Who was the person that figured out madara's ability? Cool down time, how to defeat him?


Sasuke. But he only did that with rinnegan eye sight. Naruto was still sensing, and reacting to the limbo just fine. Cool down time is irrelevant. Naruto would just have easily figured it out.



> Who was the person that enabled naruto to tag him?


Naruto. He tagged madara twice before sasuke showed up. Read the manga, Mr Top tier debater.



> Kid, do you really know what you are saying?


Do you?



> You call me kid and come at me with that condescending attitude trying to belittle me and my argument


Your first post on this this thread was to mock me:



> I didn't know Naruto can bust a moon with his fists


I explained why I thought so, you ignored me and continued misquoting me, probably because that's the only way to actually have an argument with me.
So there was no respect from you first, You continued with that disrespect and now your feelings are hurt? Boohoo.



> when I was respecting your argument by replying to it even though it's laughable and everyone here thinks you are trolling


Everyone meaning your imaginary friends.




> hence why they didn't respond and quote you.


How you know this eludes me. 



> Are you trolling?


No.



> or did you actually think you had a chance going that far above your weight class?


Damn. "Weight class", like there are some tiers to debating.

Is this just something you made up, because you have too much free time?But please king, tell me what should I look out for to know who is in my tier or not?


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 31, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> There REALLY is champ
> 
> The Juubis power isnt additive
> 
> ...



Doubling chakra doesn't double power output, it more than doubles it.

That's why kurama shrunk to less than half size when only half his chakra was removed.

That's why Madara with two Rinnegan can make 5 Limbo clones instead of 2.

Chakra isn't additive


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 31, 2018)

@Ultrafragor it's 4 limbo with 2 rinnegan, and 1 limbo with 1 rinnegan. Also the rinnegan at best enhances your chakra, it doesn't give you chakra.


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## Ultrafragor (Dec 31, 2018)

Seems like you just want to play semantics


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## Mar55 (Dec 31, 2018)

Naruto obviously had moon level potency in his punch vs Toneri, considering said punch overpowered Golden Wheel - which famously cut the moon in half.

Even ignoring that, Naruto tanked that very attack. Meaning Momo also scales from it, as even Toneri referred to him and Kin as "Gods." He also had a multi-country busting TBB in base, and was damaging Kurama avatar and Perfect Susano'o, he carries more potency than Toneri.

Naruto's Rasengan being thought of as just "a base Rasengan" is faulty, The Last demonstrated he can focus higher forms of power to a point, while otherwise remaining in base. Considering it overpowered Momo's own Rasengan, killed him in a huge explosion in the atmosphere and that Momo could handle his TBB attacks detonating at point blank, it's clearly very far above just a simply base Ultra Big Ball Rasengan.


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## UltimaDude (Dec 31, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Naruto's Rasengan being thought of as just "a base Rasengan" is faulty, The Last demonstrated he can focus higher forms of power to a point, while otherwise remaining in base. Considering it overpowered Momo's own Rasengan, killed him in a huge explosion in the atmosphere and that Momo could handle his TBB attacks detonating at point blank, it's clearly very far above just a simply base Ultra Big Ball Rasengan.


There were no indications whatsoever that Naruto concentrated chakra from his higher forms into the Rasengan he provided Boruto. If anything is faulty, it's your own speculation. When did Momo tank his own TBB?


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## PrimeRichard (Dec 31, 2018)

JJ madara(pre shinju) > BSM naruto(war arc and the last) > TCM toneri
Madara midd diff


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## Esano (Dec 31, 2018)

So, like if BSM Naruto is so weak, I guess you guys think Sasuke shits on BSM Naruto? And Naruto was holding back vs a threat to his family and the entire world?

Because Sasuke didn't lose any forms. Sasuke is just Sasuke, and since Sasuke>=This Madara, then he should shit on BSM Naruto according to you guys no?


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## Mar55 (Dec 31, 2018)

UltimaDude said:


> There were no indications whatsoever that Naruto concentrated chakra from his higher forms into the Rasengan he provided Boruto. If anything is faulty, it's your own speculation.


We have pure logic on our side, Momo is not some glass cannon, neither is Toneri. We know Naruto can empower himself with higher forms of chakra, we know his base has permanent six paths chakra, so regardless the technique is obviously going to pack a punch.

After all, it's the same tactic used to beat Toneri. He focused his BSM chakra into his fist, but his body remained in "base." It's what lead to the confusion of Toneri being defeated by base Naruto, when that's clearly not the case.

Not that it would matter, mind. Even Naruto's base has country level feats, so it's not like being taken out by it is some low showing.



UltimaDude said:


> When did Momo tank his own TBB?


In every iteration of it's use. When he first uses it against Bee, he's basically right on top of him. When Naruto contains it, Mono is in the stadium and unconcerned about it detonating.

Hell, in the manga it's hyped to destroy the "surrounding lands" by Sasuke. With this is mind, releasing it anywhere within his vicinity is already a continental level durability showing.

Not to mention the scaling is in play here, he's > Toneri and ~ Rinne Sauce & SPSM Naruto. Considering he was taking their hits, destroying their constructs and overpowered Kurama with his Lava Golem, it's all pretty clear cut.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 1, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> We have pure logic on our side, Momo is not some glass cannon, neither is Toneri. We know Naruto can empower himself with higher forms of chakra, we know his base has permanent six paths chakra, so regardless the technique is obviously going to pack a punch.
> 
> After all, it's the same tactic used to beat Toneri. He focused his BSM chakra into his fist, but his body remained in "base." It's what lead to the confusion of Toneri being defeated by base Naruto, when that's clearly not the case.
> 
> Not that it would matter, mind. Even Naruto's base has country level feats, so it's not like being taken out by it is some low showing.


So you got nothing but assumptions then. Naruto having the Rikudou boost has nothing to do with your claim that Naruto concentrated chakra from his mode to his Rasengan. All you are doing is going on a random tangent

Ok and? He clearly did no such thing against Momoshiki. The Rasengan he gave Boruto was strictly from his base chakra

The reason why people praise the feat so much is because he did it while being exhausted and being restrained by Rinnegan rods (which are known to restrict movement and chakra)


Mar55 said:


> In every iteration of it's use. When he first uses it against Bee, he's basically right on top of him. When Naruto contains it, Mono is in the stadium and unconcerned about it detonating.
> 
> Hell, in the manga it's hyped to destroy the "surrounding lands" by Sasuke. With this is mind, releasing it anywhere within his vicinity is already a continental level durability showing.
> 
> Not to mention the scaling is in play here, he's > Toneri and ~ Rinne Sauce & SPSM Naruto. Considering he was taking their hits, destroying their constructs and overpowered Kurama with his Lava Golem, it's all pretty clear cut.


He was clearly really high up and the TBB explosion didn't even reach him. Momo was clearly concerned about the manner in which it detonates it, hence why he shot it from a high distance. He even signaled Kinshiki to fly up with him before he spammed a bunch of absorbed jutsus

Surrounding lands does not necessarily mean continental and in the anime, it was surrounding areas. The anime takes precedent over the manga. Momoshiki did not tank anything significant

Again with the assumptions. None of Naruto's and Sasuke's punches were as strong as you're trying to imply. Nothing in the fight was continental


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## Esano (Jan 1, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> So you got nothing but assumptions then. Naruto having the Rikudou boost has nothing to do with your claim that Naruto concentrated chakra from his mode to his Rasengan. All you are doing is going on a random tangent
> 
> Ok and? He clearly did no such thing against Momoshiki. The Rasengan he gave Boruto was strictly from his base chakra
> 
> ...


Why would the anime take precedent?



UltimaDude said:


> So you got nothing but assumptions then. Naruto having the Rikudou boost has nothing to do with your claim that Naruto concentrated chakra from his mode to his Rasengan. All you are doing is going on a random tangent
> 
> Ok and? He clearly did no such thing against Momoshiki. The Rasengan he gave Boruto was strictly from his base chakra
> 
> ...


Sasuke hasn't gotten weaker, so why would his attacks not be continental when they could harm Madara?


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## Trojan (Jan 1, 2019)

Anyone else finds it funny that Hashirama/Asspulldara's fanboys always bring their jutsu Size to say they are far stronger than whatever opponent they are facing, but they are the first ones to dismiss this argument whenever the other opponent has the bigger jutsu?


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> Yeah madara can do so, but he doesn't do so. You need to show him doing CES for you to say he can do it.


Huh you just said madara can do it yet proceeded to say I need to show feats of him doing it for you to believe he can do it? lol wow kid
Madara has not used petra paths when he became JJ and he didn't use petra path to absorb naruto's rasengan, so are you saying you won't believe he can use petra paths as JJ until you see him do it even though he has the rinnegan and meets all the requirements?


Kamalu said:


> CES power output depends on chakra put into it. The punch used by naruto in the Las*t had ALL his chakra mode*(powerful enough to withstand the moonsplitter). That's why it's moon level.


Proof of bold, as you have been spouting it through out this argument yet haven't provided proof that naruto used all his chakra in that punch


Kamalu said:


> Madara on the other hand weren't hit by CES that had moon level chakra in it. If naruto had concentrated ALL his chakra into that punch, he wouldn't be in RSM as he shown to be in.


Until you proof naruto used all his chakra in that punch this your argument hold no substance. Naruto used a superior chakra to the one TL Last naruto used to attack madara


Kamalu said:


> As for momoshiki, it looks tricky, but ask yourself this, You use your most powerful taijutsu on your enemy and he blocks it easily. Do you:
> 
> Freak out because your only option is basically ineffective, or
> Smile enthusiastically, then proceed to use weaker taijutsu on the enemy.
> Naruto picked option 2, which means he's either insane or he just didn't put that much chakra into the punch. Which makes sense.


Irrelevant to the debate, am not asking for your interpretation of the fight, naruto used CES on momo and he blocked it easily, you said he didn't punch that much chakra into it then proof it, you said TL Naruto used ALL his chakra into his CES then proof it. Don't be a kid and just spout your opinion


Kamalu said:


> Who is my senior here?





Kamalu said:


> Anyway, naruto surprise attacked her, she wasn't expecting his counter,* so she used lesser power.*


Proof of bold: Your whole argument is full of assumption and it's sad really. Naruto surprised her by breaking the boulder and attacked her, she proceeded to counter his attack by using 80 vacuum palm and got overwhelmed yet she was using a lesser power with no proof to back it up


Kamalu said:


> I'm not implying it, that's what happened. And no, PS isn't equal to RSM naruto, at all.


Then proof it, that  when they clashed in vote. Everyone literally knows this so if you think otherwise then proof it


Kamalu said:


> But kishimoto goes out of his way to say it's light speed twice.


Where in the manga did they say it's light speed, provide manga scan 


Kamalu said:


> Naruto blitzed and destroyed Juudara, in base RSM before he could even think to fully form his TSB which operate on thought.


> Naruto attacked a weakened madara who had just finsihed tanking hits from night guy while naruto was refreshed by SO6P
> Madara proceeded to block his attack yet according to you he was blitz



Kamalu said:


> As for sasuke,* he didn't directly blitz him*, but by comparing with a common opponent (kaguya), you can see naruto can easily deal with sasuke in a blitz.


My God and you say am dishonest. This was what you said


Kamalu said:


> You mean *blitzing them effortlessly. *I can get scans for madara and sasuke. Again your logic


You said naruto blitz both madara and sasuke and you have scans of him blitzing them yet i asked you for proof but you now said he didn't directly blitz sasuke 
If you are going to be dishonest then please don't quote me


Kamalu said:


> You know I can't. But I see you ignored the bijuu rasenshuriken(kurama powered) used against toneri


I didn't ignore it, i asked for proof of naruto using the techs i showed you not the one he used in TL. Implying the RS he used in the last is equal to a RSM RS 


Kamalu said:


> Before Obito can fully extend his TSB (which operate on thought),
> 
> before Minato can use Hiraishin (Keep in mind he just used it pointblank against the Raikage as he was less than an inch away from his face for a sneak attack,) Naruto extended his Chakra arms to him and Sasuke
> 
> Naruto remembered what Minato said in that short timeframe and acted before Obito could close his hand essentially.


This kid does not know what he is arguing or talking about here. You said naruto blitz juubito and I asked for proof and you showed me naruto escaping from juubito via FTG. Are you trolling me? Do you know the meaning of blitz? 


Kamalu said:


> Funny this is coming from you.


I just showed you an example of you being dishonest above and it's unsightly 


Kamalu said:


> True. But rikudo chakra plus senjutsu equals rikudo senjutsu, add in the bijuu chakra which I proved he, and it's RSM in all but name and cosmetics.


This is the end of  this debate. This is really poor argument on any level. I was curious if you were trolling me now I have confirmed you are. You just literally said TL Naruto was in RSM. 

No use continuing this debate if you believe everything you just typed


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## Esano (Jan 1, 2019)

Do you guys think Sasuke would fodderize Toneri?


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## Kagutsutchi (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> Huh you just said madara can do it yet proceeded to say I need to show feats of him doing it for you to believe he can do it?


No. I meant that just because madara can do it, doesn't mean he wants to do it, or thinks of doing it. It's like kisame having fire release. He should have some fire jutsu's but it's not in character for him to use it.



> lol wow kid
> Madara has not used petra paths when he became JJ and he didn't use petra path to absorb naruto's rasengan, so are you saying you won't believe he can use petra paths as JJ until you see him do it even though he has the rinnegan and meets all the requirements?


Nah, he will use it. It's just that JJ madara became cocky/stupid in that form and for whatever reason, he forgot to use his techs. I take this into account in battles.



> Proof of bold, as you have been spouting it through out this argument yet haven't provided proof that naruto used all his chakra in that punch


Let's see here:

*Spoiler*: __ 




And finally, the punch:

Naruto’s final attack in The Last is basically just a very, very, very strong punch. He focuses the entirety of his 100% BSM chakra(with six paths chakra boost) into a single arm, and uses that arm to block Toneri’s moon cutting beam. Hell, its beyond blocking. He completely negates the thing.



And then, he proceeds to switch all the energy into his trusty right and delivers the mightiest straight in the entire series.





This punch should be greater than the moon cutting GWRE, seeing as how the jutsu failed to scratch naruto's chakra cloak and the punch had to be powerful enough to overcome the force the GWRE packed.






> Until you proof naruto used all his chakra in that punch this your argument hold no substance.


I've proven it. You just don't want to accept it.



> Naruto used a superior chakra to the one TL Last naruto used to attack madara


So TL naruto attacked madara? Okay. And superior chakra. Bitch, It was the same fucking chakra, six paths senjutsu chakra. It has the same constituents as RSM:

Rikudo chakra
All 9 bijuu chakra
Nature energy
The only difference between these things is the name, and some eye liner.



> Irrelevant to the debate,


Sure thing senpai.



> am not asking for your interpretation of the fight,






> naruto used CES on momo and he blocked it easily, you said he didn't punch that much chakra into it then proof it,


I have with logic. It's better than you saying the rasengan that killed momoshiki didn't have rikudo chakra, then utterly failing with your evidence.



> you said TL Naruto used ALL his chakra into his CES then proof it.


I have.



> Don't be a kid and just spout your opinion


That's a much better option than being a coward who is too scared to own up to a mistake a.k.a you.



> Proof of bold:


It's a fucking battle tactic and commonsense. Why would naruto pretend to be immobilised if not to lure kaguya into a false sense of victory. So she lessens her guard and uses less force.



> Your whole argument is full of assumption and it's sad really.


The irony.



> Naruto surprised her by breaking the boulder and attacked her, she proceeded to counter his attack by using 80 vacuum palm and got overwhelmed yet she was using a lesser power with no proof to back it up


She was surprised and because of that, she used a lesser power. And aren't you assuming too? You assume kaguya is using her full power and you have just as much proof as me to back it up, so fuck off with this hypocrisy.



> Then proof it, that  when they clashed in vote. Everyone literally knows this so if you think otherwise then proof it


Where did naruto use a bijuu rasenshuriken on sasuke? Where did naruto attack first instead of react over and over? Where did naruto use clones before BPS? The clash between PS and Kurama avatar is not proof they were equals since naruto was being defensive the whole time. The durability aspect is what I can give you.



> Where in the manga did they say it's light speed, provide manga scan


I don't have it. But Kishimoto says so twice. Besides, since the speed of the attack was never mentioned in the manga, why do you assume it's relativistic? For all we know, it could be hypersonic, since you don't want to accept kishimoto's word. Let everyone come to their own conclusion on speed.



> > Naruto attacked a weakened madara who had just finsihed tanking hits from night guy while naruto was refreshed by SO6P
> > Madara proceeded to block his attack yet according to you he was blitz


>Naruto crossed dozens of meters to hit madara.
>The only thing madara could do in that time period was form a staff with his thoughts.

The fact he didn't dodge should tell you he was nearly blitzed.



> My God and you say am dishonest. This was what you said
> 
> You said naruto blitz both madara and sasuke and you have scans of him blitzing them yet i asked you for proof but you now said he didn't directly blitz sasuke


I meant for madara alone. Sasuke's case was meant to be indirect.



> If you are going to be dishonest then please don't quote me


When quoting me, acknowledge your losses, like juubito being blitzed by BSM naruto, Senjutsu BS and Weight class shenanigans. Okay?



> I didn't ignore it, i asked for proof of naruto using the techs i showed you not the one he used in TL. Implying the RS he used in the last is equal to a RSM RS


It was. You still haven't proven why RSM is different from TL BSM.



> This kid does not know what he is arguing or talking about here.


This guy won't accept he lost.



> You said naruto blitz juubito and I asked for proof and you showed me naruto escaping from juubito via FTG. Are you trolling me? Do you know the meaning of blitz?


Let me repeat this for your frail mind:

In the time it took for Obito to hit naruto and sasuke with the TSB(which operate on thought)
In the time it took for minato to perform FTG(operates on thought)
Naruto thought about his dad's words, extended his chakra arm several feet to grab minato, and grab sasuke.
By definition, a speed blitz is when one can perform an action before the enemy realizes what is going on, which is *exactly* what happened in those scans.



> I just showed you an example of you being dishonest above and it's unsightly


Because you say so.



> This is the end of  this debate.


Couldn't agree more. You're too pathetic to debate.
@Esano, absolutely not. Naruto couldn't, and sasuke is in no way superior to naruto.


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## MarF (Jan 1, 2019)

Esano said:


> Do you guys think Sasuke would fodderize Toneri?



Considering the fact that Toneri can rip out all of Sasuke's Chakra in a second by just lifting his hand I'd say no.


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## Esano (Jan 1, 2019)

MarF said:


> Considering the fact that Toneri can rip out all of Sasuke's Chakra in a second by just lifting his hand I'd say no.


Exactly. The same Sasuke who was on par if not above Madara with 1 eye.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 1, 2019)

Esano said:


> Why would the anime take precedent?


Kodachi supervises the screenwriters and they give him their stories. And there was this manga panel where there were a bunch of mangaka comments and in it Kodachi says that the current anime arc (which was the School Trip Arc) is connected. The anime supersedes the manga



Esano said:


> Sasuke hasn't gotten weaker, so why would his attacks not be continental when they could harm Madara?


Sasuke clearly didn't use any continental-level attacks to harm Madara. None of the strikes made by Naruto and Sasuke were continental. Heck, Boruto's tiny Rasengan was able to put a scratch on Momo.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 1, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Anyone else finds it funny that Hashirama/Asspulldara's fanboys always bring their jutsu Size to say they are far stronger than whatever opponent they are facing, but they are the first ones to dismiss this argument whenever the other opponent has the bigger jutsu?


 "omg did you see? They made the valley if the end! It was so big they must forever be the strongest!

6PoP flattens Konoha and makes the CT crater. Something a dozen or so times the size of VotE 

"Nagato can't hurt the Founders, they are much stronger because...um... portrayal? The blast size does not count for everything!"


Sasuke uses MA Susano'o, the same as Madara as stated and shown, neither he nor Sasuke use PS while alive.
"Madara's should be stronger because he has stronger chakra! No of course that's never stated or shown but....um... portrayal GG?"

"Madara with 2 Rinnegan could do jutsu so big you could see the curve of the Earth around them! He is the best! "

Toneri split the moon casually.

"The blade wasn't powerful because it was spread out, see? And yes Naruto is a Rikudo all the time the same way Hagaromo and shows this by flying in base, touching TSB and etc, but he wasn't using Rikudo chakra...somehow."

OT: Toneri shits on him by portrayal (aka feats + statements.)

The dude simply cuts Madara in half and uses Madara's own chakra to blow him to pieces.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jan 1, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 6PoP flattens Konoha and makes the CT crater. Something a dozen or so times the size of VotE


I actually have seen some people who are retarded enough to claim that the distance between the 2 statues are far bigger
than the entirety of konoha...


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 1, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I actually have seen some people who are retarded enough to claim that the distance between the 2 statues are far bigger
> than the entirety of konoha...


Eh, I wouldn't call them retarded. Bias can affect all of us humans, especially when reinforced by others. But I dig your point.

Would simply using their eyes have told them that belief is dead ass wrong? Hell yes.

Would it stop them from saying things like : "Enhanced Sasuke has better speed, CQC and tracking feats than EMS Madara so we should give Madara Sasuke's feats! Its because Madara is better in every category as stated in my dreams!"


No it would not.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 1, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> The dude simply cuts Madara in half and uses Madara's own chakra to blow him to pieces.


Even if Madara has better firepower and whatnot than Toneri, Toneri can just easily absorb his chakra from a distance


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

> Toneri cuts Madara in half when he failed to cut BSM Naruto in Half
> JJ Madara who is equal to RSM Naruto yet he can't tank an attack or weaker version of naruto can

Why am I not surprised by the arguments in this thread anymore


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 1, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> Even if Madara has better firepower and whatnot than Toneri, Toneri can just easily absorb his chakra from a distance


What better fire power did Madara ever show?


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## UltimaDude (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> > Toneri cuts Madara in half when he failed to cut BSM Naruto in Half
> > JJ Madara who is equal to RSM Naruto yet he can't tank an attack or weaker version of naruto can
> 
> Why am I not surprised by the arguments in this thread anymore


Being equal in power doesn't mean having the exact same stats. JJ Madara was cut in half by a Chidori sword, pierced by Obito, and was also pierced by Black Zetsu. RSM Naruto was only knocked away by Sasuke's Chidori which left no scratch whatsoever.

So it's not ridiculous to say that Madara won't be able to tank the GWRE


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## UltimaDude (Jan 1, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> What better fire power did Madara ever show?


I never said he did

Reactions: Like 1


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> Being equal in power doesn't mean having the exact same stats.


Oh yes it does, Madara is equal to RSM Naruto, by having the same mode as him and superior and more chakra and higher fire power via juubidama by being JJ. Even momo is equal to RSM Naruto and he does not have more chakra than even naruto talk less of madara


UltimaDude said:


> JJ Madara was cut in half by a Chidori sword, pierced by Obito, and was also pierced by Black Zetsu.


And naruto's RSM Lava FRS failed to cut him in half and damage him like sasuke's chidori did, or obito's hand did or zetsu hand did. Does that mean obito's hand is more powerful than naruto's lava FRS? The same person who tanked both sasuke's six paths amped chidori which is stronger than the chidori he used on naruto and tanked naruto's rasengan at the same time. So because naruto tanked sasuke's chidori means he is more durable than madara who tanked a superior chidori right? 


UltimaDude said:


> So it's not ridiculous to say that Madara won't be able to tank the GWRE


It is when madara is as durable as RSM Naruto, as a weaker form of that naruto tanked it, so by saying madara can't is very ridiculous


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## Ultrafragor (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> Oh yes it does, Madara is equal to RSM Naruto, by having the same mode as him and superior and more chakra and higher fire power via juubidama by being JJ. Even momo is equal to RSM Naruto and he does not have more chakra than even naruto talk less of madara
> 
> And naruto's RSM Lava FRS failed to cut him in half and damage him like sasuke's chidori did, or obito's hand did or zetsu hand did. Does that mean obito's hand is more powerful than naruto's lava FRS? The same person who tanked both sasuke's six paths amped chidori which is stronger than the chidori he used on naruto and tanked naruto's rasengan at the same time. So because naruto tanked sasuke's chidori means he is more durable than madara who tanked a superior chidori right?
> 
> It is when madara is as durable as RSM Naruto, as a weaker form of that naruto tanked it, so by saying madara can't is very ridiculous



Your counter arguments suck 

1) Madara does not have SPSM. That form was unique to Hagoromo and was given to Naruto.

2) Momo does not have equal chakra to Naruto, nor does he have the same senjutsu multiplier on his chakra. Momoshiki had 8.5 bijuu (more than Kaguya) plus Kinshiki's chakra, then with a sennin mode senjutsu multiplier on top. Naruto had about half of kurama to start, but with a SPSM senjutsu multiplier on his chakra supply.

3) See above, Momoshiki has half of kurama and all of gyuki. That's 1.5 more bijuu than Madara had.

4) Yoton has never been implied or shown to have high cutting power. It's not a feat in either direction that it failed to cut Madara.

5) Sasuke used Chidori Sharp Spear. A form made to increase cutting power over standard Chidori. When he used plain Chidori on Madara, it was to paralyze him, not penetrate him. So, he wasn't trying to slice through Madara, he was only trying to press his hand on Madara to keep him stunned. If not for the Limbo clone, Six Paths Chibaku Tensei probably would have triggered and ended the whole fight.

6) Plain Chidori's cutting power is actually shit. That's why it's supposed to be used as a full speed thrust just so it can fully penetrate a human body. Naruto not getting cut when Chidori still carried enough force to fling him away is impressive while Madara nto being cut by a Chidori that wasn't meant to cut him (and that he almost immediately subbed out of) isn't an identical feat.


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## Trojan (Jan 1, 2019)

Hashirama/Asspulldara's fanboys argument

> if they are the owners of the feat, it's not their opponent(s) is(are) weak, it just Asspulldara/Hashirama are too strong.
> if the other characters get the feats, it's not that this character is strong, it's just the opponent is weak.


Naruto dealing with Toneri's attacks should make HIM be THAT strong, not that he is scaled down so it can fit Asspulldara


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> Oh yes it does, Madara is equal to RSM Naruto, by having the same mode as him and superior and more chakra and higher fire power via juubidama by being JJ. Even momo is equal to RSM Naruto and he does not have more chakra than even naruto talk less of madara


As you saw earlier, Sage of the Six Paths Mode is not Six Paths Coffin Seal though both use Rikudo Senjutsu. 

Sage Transfomation/Cursed Seals and Sage Mode aren't the same either even of they both use Senjutsu.

Nor has he ever used a TBB via any means. 


King1 said:


> And naruto's RSM Lava FRS failed to cut him in half and damage him like sasuke's chidori did, or obito's hand did or zetsu hand did. Does that mean obito's hand is more powerful than naruto's lava FRS? The same person who tanked both sasuke's six paths amped chidori which is stronger than the chidori he used on naruto and tanked naruto's rasengan at the same time. So because naruto tanked sasuke's chidori means he is more durable than madara who tanked a superior chidori right?


 
It sent him streaking like a comet and left him in a crater, groaning.

Zoom in and you can see he is nearly bisected and has flames coming from the wounds.


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Your counter arguments suck


Lemme give a tip before you quote next time or any other time
1) Read what I posted, carefully and slowly
2) Read the manga and make sure you have accurate knowledge of it
3) Don't make assumptions or be dishonest
Failure to meet those will result you your post being ignored as evident of your post below in which you met none of those requirements 


Ultrafragor said:


> Madara does not have SPSM. That form was unique to Hagoromo and was given to Naruto.


This is why I said read the manga before you quote me. 


Ultrafragor said:


> Momo does not have equal chakra to Naruto, nor does he have the same senjutsu multiplier on his chakra.* Momoshiki had 8.5 bijuu (more than Kaguya) plus Kinshiki's chakra, then with a sennin mode senjutsu multiplier on top.* Naruto had about half of kurama to start, but with a SPSM senjutsu multiplier on his chakra supply.


Where the hell did you get that momo has 8.5 biju chakra? Where the hell did momo get a sennin mode? Where was it even stated in the manga or anime? 


Ultrafragor said:


> See above, Momoshiki has half of kurama and all of gyuki. That's 1.5 more bijuu than Madara had.


If momo has half of kurama then why did his chakra run after naruto finished dealing with him and he needed those scientist to blast him with ninjutsu to fight again and he needed to take shinju pills to empower himself? Where was it stated he has all of gyuki in him when killer escaped? Can you not make things up? If you do then quote someone else to play your game


Ultrafragor said:


> *Yoton has never been implied or shown to have high cutting power*. It's not a feat in either direction that it failed to cut Madara.


> RS which its fundamental ability is to cut its victim at cellular level does not have high cutting power
> Yoton RS which is far more powerful than a normal RS cut the shinju in half yet it does not have high cutting power
 Like I said am no longer surprised at the arguments coming my way in this thread 


Ultrafragor said:


> Sasuke used Chidori Sharp Spear. A form made to increase cutting power over standard Chidori. When he used plain Chidori on Madara,


When did sasuke use a plain chidori on madara? In fact it was a plain chidori spear that cut him in half while a superior,. He used a on naruto, and normal chidori spear on madara to cut him yet he tanked a superior chidori than the one naruto tanked yet naruto is more durable? lol


Ultrafragor said:


> Plain Chidori's cutting power is actually shit. That's why it's supposed to be used as a full speed thrust just so it can fully penetrate a human body.


Which was exactly what he used on naruto, yet people make it sound it was a good feat for him while madara tanked a superior chidori yet they don't acknowledge it. I wonder why


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> As you saw earlier, Sage of the Six Paths Mode is not Six Paths Coffin Seal though both use Rikudo Senjutsu.
> 
> Sage Transfomation/Cursed Seals and Sage Mode aren't the same either even of they both use Senjutsu


Dude what are you on about here? Madara and Naruto both use Rikudou senjutsu,yet you are saying he does not? You are bringing to me your own interpretation when we have manga scan with madara saying he has the same mode as naruto. Really dude? 


Hi no Ishi said:


> Nor has he ever used a TBB via any means.


Who are you talking about here, and are you saying madara can't use TBB or TSBs?


Hi no Ishi said:


> It sent him streaking like a comet and left him in a crater, groaning.
> 
> Zoom in and you can see he is *nearly bisected* and has flames coming from the wounds


Dude you really need to try and understand what you are quoting as your quote is not even trying to debunk my post. Was madara cut in half like he was when sasuke attacked him with chidori spear? Was madara pierced to the other side like when zetsu and obito stabbed him? Lava FRS failed to bisect him yet chidori spear did so does that mean chidori spear is more power than yoton? Zetsu hand stabbed through his body but yoton failed to even bisect him but does that mean zetsu hand is more powerful than yoton? What are you even trying to address here?


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Naruto dealing with Toneri's attacks should make HIM be THAT strong, not that he is scaled down so it can fit Asspulldara


As expected of hussain, once again proof why debating is not his forte. Madara is equal to RSM Naruto who is stronger than BSM Naruto. If BSM Naruto can tank toneri attacks then madara who is equal to RSM Naruto scales to and above that. It's like saying Sasuke who is equal to madara and RSM Naruto, can't scale to and above BSM Naruto's feat by your logic


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## MarF (Jan 1, 2019)

Six Paths Senjutsu =/= Six Paths Sennin Mōdo

Senjutsu(Sage Technique) is Ninjutsu boosted by NE.
Sennin Mōdo(Sage Mode) is the user balancing his Phyisical and Spiritual Energy with NE.

Madara can use Senjutsu because he has the Juubi sealed inside of him.
Naruto can use Senjutsu because he has SPSM.


RSM wasn't a thing when The Last was created. Naruto using BSM is only a means to showcase Naruto going all out against Toneri by powering up. Him holding back his stronger form against somebody who is not only more powerful than him but plans to wipe out humanity doesn't make much sense.

19 year old Naruto who showed massive improvements across the board after training for 2 years > 17 year old Naruto who just got his powers minutes beforehand by both feats and basic logic.


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## Trojan (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> As expected of hussain, once again proof why debating is not his forte. Madara is equal to RSM Naruto who is stronger than BSM Naruto. If BSM Naruto can tank toneri attacks then madara who is equal to RSM Naruto scales to and above that. It's like saying Sasuke who is equal to madara and RSM Naruto, can't scale to and above BSM Naruto's feat by your logic


Sorry, but this is just stupid.

the one fighting Asspulldara was 16-17 years old Naruto. The one we are talking about is 19 years old Naruto who got stronger and
has better feats.

how many people do you see that claim something like this
"Since Lee & Neji were comparable (if not stronger) than Naruto/Sasuke in part 1, then we must say they are comparable to them in part 2"



- I don't pay attention to how Naruto looked in the last. Ever since the manga ended, he kept getting his mode-design changed every single time. In the last, in the Gaiden, in the movie, in the manga (Boruto)...etc etc.

that does not mean he has a million different modes... 
as far as I am concerned, people are just nitpicking... 




> n madara who is equal to RSM Naruto scales to and above that.


he should have tanked Sasuke's Chidori sword then... 
or was that stronger than Toneri's attack in your opinion?


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Sorry, but this is just stupid.





Hussain said:


> the one fighting Asspulldara was 16-17 years old Naruto. The one we are talking about is 19 years old Naruto who got stronger and
> has better feats.


So naruto who did not use his strongest form is stronger when he is in his strongest form. Do you know the monumental gap RSM gives naruto compared to the BSM he used in TL


Hussain said:


> Since Lee & Neji were comparable (if not stronger) than Naruto/Sasuke in part 1, then we must say they are comparable to them in part 2"


If lee and neji have more chakra, fire power, than naruto and sasuke in part 1 and still have more chakra and, fire power than them in part 2 then yes they are comparable or neji and lee are stronger


Hussain said:


> I don't pay attention to how Naruto looked in the last. Ever since the manga ended, he kept getting his mode-design changed every single time. In the last, in the Gaiden, in the movie, in the manga (Boruto)...etc etc.
> 
> that does not mean he has a million different modes...
> as far as I am concerned, people are just nitpicking..


Just because you don't doesn't mean others don't. We know when he is in RSM, we know that's his strongest form and when he is in RSM, he is at his strongest, and we know madara and sasuke are equal to him in that form so anything a weaker naruto does then madara and sasuke scales to and above that


Hussain said:


> he should have tanked Sasuke's Chidori sword then...
> or was that stronger than Toneri's attack in your opinion?


Oh wait but he tanked a superior fire power than chidori sword via yoton and six paths chidori or are you saying chidori sword is greater than yoton and six paths chidori?


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## Trojan (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> If lee and neji have more chakra, fire power, than naruto and sasuke in part 1 and still have more chakra and, fire power than them in part 2 then yes they are comparable or neji and lee are stronger


having more chakra does not mean you are stronger. Otherwise, Kisame would have been 100 stronger than itachi for example.  



King1 said:


> Just because you don't doesn't mean others don't. We know when he is in RSM, we know that's his strongest form and when he is in RSM, he is at his strongest, and we know madara and sasuke are equal to him in that form so anything a weaker naruto does then madara and sasuke scales to and above that


So, what are the forms he was using in Naruto Gaiden, Boruto (manga and movie)...etc in your opinion? What do you call them? 

and how did you know it's "BSM" when he did not look like "BSM" that appeared in the manga?  
can you explain this to us? 



King1 said:


> Oh wait but he tanked a superior fire power than chidori sword via yoton and six paths chidori or are you saying chidori sword is greater than yoton and six paths chidori?


he did not tank shit. Pretty sure we went over this nonsense before... 


he couldn't even take BZ's arm for crying out loud.


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

MarF said:


> Six Paths Senjutsu =/= Six Paths Sennin Mōdo
> 
> Senjutsu(Sage Technique) is Ninjutsu boosted by NE.
> Sennin Mōdo(Sage Mode) is the user balancing his Phyisical and Spiritual Energy with NE.
> ...


Sorry but this makes no sense at all, you are *implying *that madara's RSM is different from naruto's own when?  Madara said and I quote, " One has senjutsu of the six paths which is SPSM, and he then proceeded to say he has it too but to you and others, you will ignore what he said and make up your own interpretation of it because? So you rather go with your own head canon than to follow what is in the manga right? 


MarF said:


> RSM wasn't a thing when The Last was created. Naruto using BSM is only a means to showcase Naruto going all out against Toneri by powering up. Him holding back his stronger form against somebody who is not only more powerful than him but plans to wipe out humanity doesn't make much sense


Does not change the fact that he used a weaker mode against toneri tho. And his strongest mode is RSM which madara is equal to so anything a weaker naruto does madara scales to and above it


MarF said:


> 19 year old Naruto who showed massive improvements across the board after training for 2 years > 17 year old Naruto who just got his powers minutes beforehand by both feats and basic logic.


How does naruto just getting his powers which he mastered from the get go makes him weaker than TL Naruto. He mastered his powers as he got them so your argument of TL Naruto trained to become stronger holds no wait when he had already mastered his powers to the maximum


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Hussain said:


> having more chakra does not mean you are stronger. Otherwise, Kisame would have been 100 stronger than itachi for example.


Having more chakra and fire power and equal physical stats means you are stronger than your opponent plus including his hax then it's overkill


Hussain said:


> So, what are the forms he was using in Naruto Gaiden, Boruto (manga and movie)...etc in your opinion? What do you call them?
> 
> and how did you know it's "BSM" when he did not look like "BSM" that appeared in the manga?
> can you explain this to us?


The form he used in gaiden and Boruto is SPSM, and the BSM in TL is the same as in the manga


Hussain said:


> he did not tank shit. Pretty sure we went over this nonsense before.


Did it bisect him in half like chidori spear did? 


Hussain said:


> he couldn't even take BZ's arm for crying out loud.


Exactly, zetsu and obito's hands were able to pierce him fully and open up his body on the other side yet yoton and six paths chisori could not so is zetsu hand more power than yoton hussain?


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## MarF (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> Sorry but this makes no sense at all, you are *implying *that madara's RSM is different from naruto's own when?  Madara said and I quote, " One has senjutsu of the six paths which is SPSM, and he then proceeded to say he has it too but to you and others, you will ignore what he said and make up your own interpretation of it because? So you rather go with your own head canon than to follow what is in the manga right?


Again SP Senjutsu and SP Sage Mode are not the same thing. Both Naruto and Madara can use SP Senjutsu but they get if from different sources.

Madara from the Juubi sealed inside of him and Naruto from using Six Paths Sage Mode.

Just because Madara can use Senjutsu it doesn't mean he can use Sage Mode.



King1 said:


> Does not change the fact that he used a weaker mode against toneri tho. And his strongest mode is RSM which madara is equal to so anything a weaker naruto does madara scales to and above it


The form Naruto uses doesn't change the fact that he was using his full power, anything less would make no sense.

Toneri is stronger than Naruto in TL he can beat him by simply raising his hand. Naruto holding back against him when the fate of the entire world hangs on his shoulder would be completely retarted on his part.



King1 said:


> How does naruto just getting his powers which he mastered from the get go makes him weaker than TL Naruto. He mastered his powers as he got them so your argument of TL Naruto trained to become stronger holds no wait when he had already mastered his powers to the maximum



WA Naruto was still learning about his powers. Even if could use them instinctively, if he doesn't know he has them or isn't put into a specific situation he wont have that power.

In TL Naruto did:
create FRS with 1 hand and guide it mid air with pin point accuracy
Phase his hand into Hinata's chest without hurting her
Condense his entire chakra cloak into his fist
use chakra enchanced strength

And thats just stuff I remembered on the top off my head. Point is Naruto was improving a lot over these 2 years.


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## Trojan (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> Having more chakra and fire power and equal physical stats means you are stronger than your opponent plus including his hax then it's overkill


from where you brought up all this fanfiction? 
Naruto, physically, overpowered Kaguya's arms that destroyed Sasuke's Susanoo. What physical feats does Asspulldara have?

and the strongest jutsu JJ Asspulldara used is the multi CT, which Naruto destroyed easily as well.



King1 said:


> The form he used in gaiden and Boruto is SPSM, and the BSM in TL is the same as in the manga


How did you determine that when the designs are different? 
 please do tell.. 



King1 said:


> Did it bisect him in half like chidori spear did?


Yes. Hence, the pic.



King1 said:


> Exactly, zetsu and obito's hands were able to pierce him fully and open up his body on the other side yet yoton and six paths chisori could not so is zetsu hand more power than yoton hussain?



except he was cut in half like the bitch that he is. Hence, the pic.


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## Ultrafragor (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> Lemme give a tip before you quote next time or any other time
> 1) Read what I posted, carefully and slowly
> 2) Read the manga and make sure you have accurate knowledge of it
> 3) Don't make assumptions or be dishonest
> Failure to meet those will result you your post being ignored as evident of your post below in which you met none of those requirements



I can't remember the last time someone was so wrong about so many things all at once, but such an ass about it too.

You need to be banned from ever using that emote again. You don't deserve it.



> This is why I said read the manga before you quote me.



To begin with, Ten Tails Coffin Seal gives the user Six Paths Senjutsu via the Juubi. However, Six Paths Sage Mode is a heightened form of Six Paths Senjutsu.

Further, Six Paths Sage Mode was plainly said to be exclusive to Hagoromo.

So, how would Madara be able to identify Naruto had Six Paths Sage Mode if there's no way Madara even knows what that is, and if Madara did have a way figure that out (there's no indication that even other Sage Mode users could sense the difference between an opponent using Sennin Transformation, Six Paths Senjutsu, or Sage Mode; Otsutsuki have Six Paths Senjutsu and Urashiki didn't know what the fuck Mitsuki's Sage Mode chakra was) why did he call it by the wrong name?

Knowledge of supplementary materials: 0



> Where the hell did you get that momo has 8.5 biju chakra? Where the hell did momo get a sennin mode? Where was it even stated in the manga or anime?



1) Why would Momo only absorb Shukaku and Gyuki? 

2) How could Momoshiki fight SPSM Naruto with only the chakra of two bijuu when the same Naruto was a match for Sasuke+8.5 bijuu?

3) Black markings+fangs+claws+yellow eyes=Sennin Transformation. They even said Momoshiki resembled Sasuke's old form. 



> If momo has half of kurama then why did his chakra run after naruto finished dealing with him and he needed those scientist to blast him with ninjutsu to fight again and he needed to take shinju pills to empower himself? Where was it stated he has all of gyuki in him when killer escaped? Can you not make things up? If you do then quote someone else to play your game



The only way it makes sense for Momoshiki to be at all affected by someone smashing the rocks he was holding is if Momoshiki put his own yin energy or yang energy into that golem to control it. Being _near_ a sword when it is swung doesn't result in damage. They also didn't cut the head of the ape, where Momoshiki was resting. So, the only way it makes sense is for Momoshiki to have a large investment of energy in that golem, which would lead to his energy being wiped out when the golem got destroyed.

(that's also the only way that a pile of rocks would be able to overpower SPSM kurama)

Besides that, fatigue isn't based on total reserves. Fatigue comes after a certain amount of chakra is expended, regardless of how much chakra the user still has in their reserves. Momoshiki definitely had chakra left, since he was conscious, and even had more chakra pills left (Naruto also said "It's not over yet" while Momoshiki was still immobile) but he was struck by momentary fatigue from chakra expenditure.

Why the fuck would they beat up B but not steal all of Gyuki's chakra?



> > RS which its fundamental ability is to cut its victim at cellular level does not have high cutting power
> > Yoton RS which is far more powerful than a normal RS cut the shinju in half yet it does not have high cutting power
> Like I said am no longer surprised at the arguments coming my way in this thread



Who isn't reading the manga?

Futon Rasenshuriken is what has tiny needles in it. That's a product of the futon chakra. Even if you made those needles with another nature release, they wouldn't have the same cutting power. All chakra natures aren't interchangeable, they all have unique characteristics.

So, as I said, yoton has never been indicated to have high cutting power. It doesn't matter if you form it into a sword or shuriken, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Which, is basically demonstrated by Chidori Sharp Spear bisecting Madara while the yoton rasenshuriken didn't een cut through a weakened Madara.



> When did sasuke use a plain chidori on madara? In fact it was a plain chidori spear that cut him in half while a superior,. He used a on naruto, and normal chidori spear on madara to cut him yet he tanked a superior chidori than the one naruto tanked yet naruto is more durable? lol
> 
> Which was exactly what he used on naruto, yet people make it sound it was a good feat for him while madara tanked a superior chidori yet they don't acknowledge it. I wonder why



Sasuke wasn't trying to cut Madara with Chidori the first time



Don't need to respond to anything else when you aren't even clear on which chidori is being used and when


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

MarF said:


> Again SP Senjutsu and SP Sage Mode are not the same thing.


And the manga said they are so sorry, gonna follow the manga instead of your head canon


MarF said:


> The form Naruto uses doesn't change the fact that he was using his full power, anything less would make no sense.


> Naruto used BSM in TL
> His strongest form or full power is RSM which he did not use in TL
> You: Naruto was using his full power in TL



MarF said:


> Toneri is stronger than Naruto in TL he can beat him by simply raising his hand.


> Naruto defeated toneri in TL and tanked and overpowered his strongest attack
> You: Toneri is stronger than naruto and can beat him



MarF said:


> Naruto holding back against him when the fate of the entire world hangs on his shoulder would be completely retarted on his part


Nope, naruto used just the amount of power needed to defeat him


MarF said:


> WA Naruto was still learning about his powers. Even if could use them instinctively, if he doesn't know he has them or isn't put into a specific situation he wont have that power.


Naruto had the understanding of all things and mastered all of his powers immediately, he knows he has his powers and knows how to use them. Moot point


MarF said:


> create FRS with 1 hand and guide it mid air with pin point accuracy


Assuming he did not do that against madara or against the meteors that were falling 


MarF said:


> Phase his hand into Hinata's chest without hurting her


That is something he LEARNT since the war arc as when he healed kakashi's eye. He had understanding of everything


MarF said:


> Condense his entire chakra cloak into his fist


Another flawed argument, where did they imply that naruto used his entire cloak chakra on his fist? Or you just assumed that was his entire cloak chakra that he condensed or simply he just used CES on his fist like in the WA


MarF said:


> use chakra enchanced strength


He already did that in the WA


MarF said:


> Point is Naruto was improving a lot over these 2 years.


Nope he already learnt those things he did in TL since the WA


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Naruto, physically, overpowered Kaguya's arms that destroyed Sasuke's Susanoo. What physical feats does Asspulldara have?


This is becoming sad hussain. From the quality of argument I have been receiving in this thread I thought you would show your class among these people and present to me quality argument yet the quality of your argument is no different from theirs. I didn't expect it from you who share the same love for Boruto (character) as me. Am disappointed 

You don't even know how scaling works, Naruto chakra arms were indeed able to overpower kaguya arms, so someone who has the same form as him, more chakra than him who also has chakra arms can't pull it off why?


Hussain said:


> and the strongest jutsu JJ Asspulldara used is the multi CT, which Naruto destroyed easily as well


Did you just say CT is Madara's strongest justu? 


Hussain said:


> How did you determine that when the designs are different?
> please do tell..


 should help you, as for SPSM, they eye pigment should help you decide as since you can see the eyes of SPSM in the WA in the scan i showed you above, now look at the when he is in SPSM as an adult. This should be straight forward tho


Hussain said:


> except he was cut in half like the bitch that he is. Hence, the pic.


No he was not, please don't stoop so low to be dishonest like some posters here, it's unsightly


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## Andrew10458 (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> This is becoming sad hussain. From the quality of argument I have been receiving in this thread I thought you would show your class among these people and present to me quality argument yet the quality of your argument is no different from theirs. I didn't expect it from you who share the same love for Boruto (character) as me. Am disappointed
> 
> You don't even know how scaling works, Naruto chakra arms were indeed able to overpower kaguya arms, so someone who has the same form as him, more chakra than him who also has chakra arms can't pull it off why?
> 
> ...


Madara doesn’t have the same form as naruto they use the same thing( six paths senjutsu) but different forms narutos form is six paths sage mode something given to him by hagoromo which allows him to use six paths senjutsu madara on the other hand becomes the juubi Jin which grants him six paths senjutsu 

since then does madara have chakra arms ? And narutos chakra arms didn’t overpower kaguyas they clashed yes overpowered no the only time he overpowered her was with boil release


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## King1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Andrew10458 said:


> *Madara doesn’t have the same form as naruto* they use the same thing( six paths senjutsu) but different forms narutos form is six paths sage mode something given to him by hagoromo which allows him to use six paths senjutsu madara on the other hand becomes the juubi Jin which grants him six paths senjutsu





Andrew10458 said:


> something given to him by hagoromo which allows him to use *six paths senjutsu*





Andrew10458 said:


> madara on the other hand becomes the juubi Jin which grants him *six paths senjutsu*





Andrew10458 said:


> since then does madara have chakra arms ?


when he was JJ


Andrew10458 said:


> And narutos chakra arms didn’t overpower kaguyas they clashed yes overpowered no the only time he overpowered her was with boil release


What did he use to clash with kaguya arms?


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## MarF (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> And the manga said they are so sorry, gonna follow the manga instead of your head canon



No.
Madra said they both have Senjutsu. Madara didn't say they both have Sage Mode which is something different.

Senjutsu is a byproduct they both get from different sources.

Madara from the Juubi and naruto from SPSM a form he got as a gift by Hagoromo.



King1 said:


> > Naruto used BSM in TL
> > His strongest form or full power is RSM which he did not use in TL
> > You: Naruto was using his full power in TL
> 
> ...



You saying Naruto wasn't using his strongest form would imply that Naruto was holding back a stronger form.
Problem is that form you are refering to didn't exist when that fight was animated meaning he is fighting at full power.

Adult Naruto > TL Naruto > WA Naruto

Naruto defeating Toneri is bullshit that only happened because of PIS.

Toneri absorbed all of Naruto's chakra in seconds TWICE, the first time he got knocked out for days and had to be healed by Sakura.
The second time he had to be saved by Hinata's Hamura Power up.

In a 1vs1 without PIS Toneri lifts his hand and Naruto is done for he has no counter towards his Chakra drain.

In the end Naruto didn't even really defeat him. Toneri fucked himself over by Overdosing on Chakra. First by Absorbing Naruto's Chakra, then boosting himself with dozens of Byakugan and lastly absorbing energy from the sun. 



King1 said:


> Naruto had the understanding of all things and mastered all of his powers immediately, he knows he has his powers and knows how to use them. Moot point


Did Naruto know he can fly? No he had to be thrown into a situation where he was forced to do it he didn't just know it beforehand.



King1 said:


> Assuming he did not do that against madara or against the meteors that were falling



TL Naruto did it in Base showing his large improvements


King1 said:


> That is something he LEARNT since the war arc as when he healed kakashi's eye. He had understanding of everything


Recreating an eye is not the same as phasing your entire hand into someones body and pulling something out without hurting them.



King1 said:


> Another flawed argument, where did they imply that naruto used his entire cloak chakra on his fist? Or you just assumed that was his entire cloak chakra that he condensed or simply he just used CES on his fist like in the WA



Naruto runs towards Toneri's attack while in BSM. His LEFT arm starts to get eveloped in a chakra flame and his cloak dissapears immediately. The flames also disappeared right after he ran through Toneri's attack leaving him in Base for a second.

When he punched him afterwards he switched to his RIGHT arm and it just glowed yellow no flames around it.

There is a clear difference between them.


King1 said:


> He already did that in the WA


Not in Base. Again showing his improvements.


anyway won't respond anymore today got an early workshift tomorrow morning


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## Andrew10458 (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> when he was JJ
> 
> What did he use to clash with kaguya arms?


Obito isn’t madara and you gonna ignore that I said they have 2 different forms that all them to use the same thing madara becoming a juubi Jin and hagoromo giving naruto six paths sage mode and naruto overpowered her in the ice dimension when he was playing decoy


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## Trojan (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> You don't even know how scaling works, Naruto chakra arms were indeed able to overpower kaguya arms, so someone who has the same form as him, more chakra than him who also has chakra arms can't pull it off why?


So, your argument is basically "We must give all of Naruto's feats to Asspulldara because that's the only way he could stand a chance" 

and Asspulldara himself was overpowered by Naruto's physical power without even using his RM and/or the 5tails power. And yet here you are saying this nonsense. 



King1 said:


> Did you just say CT is Madara's strongest justu?


if you have another "raw power" jutsu or whatever you called that is stronger please do tell us... 




King1 said:


> should help you, as for SPSM, they eye pigment should help you decide as since you can see the eyes of SPSM in the WA in the scan i showed you above, now look at the when he is in SPSM as an adult. This should be straight forward tho


that's the thing tho.. 

they did not give a darn about how his RM looks like and they kept changing it constantly, how do you know they
actually bothered with how he looks to determine how powerful he should be? 

like do you REALLY believe that they looked at Naruto and said
"well this RM Naruto's power level is 10 million, and we have this BSM Naruto and his level power is 10 thousand...

we have this Toneri's guy power level around 9 thousand, welp, we will have him face BSM Naruto, because RM is overkill" 



if you believe they were actually thinking that way, then suit yourself...  




King1 said:


> No he was not, please don't stoop so low to be dishonest like some posters here, it's unsightly


yes he was. The pic was already provided to you.
Go check your eyes with a doctor or something...


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## UltimaDude (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> Oh yes it does, Madara is equal to RSM Naruto, by having the same mode as him and superior and more chakra and higher fire power via juubidama by being JJ. Even momo is equal to RSM Naruto and he does not have more chakra than even naruto talk less of madara


No it doesn't, I literally gave you instances that shows that idea is wrong. Madara did not have the same mode as Naruto. JJ =/= RSM. You just contradicted yourself by saying Momo is equal to RSM but has less chakra, which proves my point.


King1 said:


> And naruto's RSM Lava FRS failed to cut him in half and damage him like sasuke's chidori did, or obito's hand did or zetsu hand did. Does that mean obito's hand is more powerful than naruto's lava FRS? The same person who tanked both sasuke's six paths amped chidori which is stronger than the chidori he used on naruto and tanked naruto's rasengan at the same time. So because naruto tanked sasuke's chidori means he is more durable than madara who tanked a superior chidori right?


The Lava RS was cutting through the Shinju which was why it didn't bisect Madara. It also didn't explode normally and only made a shockwave. The Lava RS clearly damaged him. So no, Madara did not tank the Lava RS. Sasuke's black Chidori was meant to restrict Madara's movement not damage him. The same goes for Naruto's Magnet Rasengan and why it didn't explode like a normal Rasengan. This is why Sasuke didn't use the Black Chidori after that to attack someone.


King1 said:


> It is when madara is as durable as RSM Naruto, as a weaker form of that naruto tanked it, so by saying madara can't is very ridiculous


Madara wasn't as durable as RSM Naruto as the manga showed otherwise. So no, saying that the GWRE slicing Madara is not ridiculous at all


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 1, 2019)

King1 said:


> Dude what are you on about here? Madara and Naruto both use Rikudou senjutsu,yet you are saying he does not? You are bringing to me your own interpretation when we have manga scan with madara saying he has the same mode as naruto. Really dude?


Why do you refuse to read your own scan? 
Can you really not see that it says Rikudo Senjutsu and not Rikudo Sennin Mode?

It's two separate entries in the databook. 
They come from the different sources.
They look totally different.

It's only your interpretation of something Madara never says that makes you conflate the two.




King1 said:


> Who are you talking about here, and are you saying madara can't use TBB or TSBs?


I'm saying he hasn't used it, we have no idea how he would use it, or even if he would think to do so.

If an argument relies on things the character hasn't shown, then what the character has actually shown must not be good enough right?


King1 said:


> Dude you really need to try and understand what you are quoting as your quote is not even trying to debunk my post. Was madara cut in half like he was when sasuke attacked him with chidori spear? Was madara pierced to the other side like when zetsu and obito stabbed him? Lava FRS failed to bisect him yet chidori spear did so does that mean chidori spear is more power than yoton? Zetsu hand stabbed through his body but yoton failed to even bisect him but does that mean zetsu hand is more powerful than yoton? What are you even trying to address here


It means he has been cut and pierced deeply over and over again. That is the opposite of durability feats.

He got wrecked by Night Gai, Lava Rasenshruiken, Chidori Sharp Spear, Zetsu's arm, so why would anyone think he has some super durability to not get cut up by some Rikudo level moon buster?

You can't just hand him Naruto's feats and ignore his bad ones.


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

> Sasuke clearly didn't use any continental-level attacks to harm Madara. None of the strikes made by Naruto and Sasuke were continental.



Sauske Sword/Naruto Punch > Gai > TSB > Juubidama.

Yes they were.




> Heck, Boruto's tiny Rasengan was able to put a scratch on Momo.



And Sakura put a scratch on Kaguya. And thats MORE legit than Borutos and people throw it out.


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## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> Sasuke clearly didn't use any continental-level attacks to harm Madara. None of the strikes made by Naruto and Sasuke were continental.
> 
> Sauske Sword/Naruto Punch > Gai > TSB > Juubidama.
> 
> ...



That scaling is flawed since TSB never tanked the Juubidama, they negated it since it was ninjutsu.

A shield of 1TSB was cracked by an enton bsm bijuudama and a shield of 3/4 was destroyed by a sekizo barrage, those attacks are nothing to even say chojo kebutsu let alone juubidama let alone the quad juubidama in question, if the bombs contained senjutsu TSB would have gotten obliterated.

Its also completely illogical to put a sword and Gai 's and Naruto's punches above the Juubi Jins strongest attack and overall strongest offense in the manga bar Kaguya's ETSB.

We saw Obito get a hole in his back by a senpo rasengan, Madara nearly died to Yagai, so you dont need anywhere near continental level output to hurt them and they're alot more durable than say Naruto or Sasuke without their avatar .

Momo is simply a glass cannon, Madara pre immortality tanked two attacks (Yrs and Yagai) who were stronger than the rasengan from base Naruto that killed him.



Esano said:


> Because Sasuke didn't lose any forms. Sasuke is just Sasuke, and since Sasuke>=This Madara, then he should shit on BSM Naruto according to you guys no?



Look i get what you're saying and if Naruto was supposed to be in RSM then i'd give him the victory easily over this Madara but the movie guidebook clarified that he was using Kurama Mode and not RSM, so yes Sasuke would neg this Naruto and Toneri as well.

In general any rikudo level fighter (JJ Madara, Rinnegan Sasuke etc) would violate a Naruto that's not using RSM or his Avatar regardless of having Hagoromo's chakra and that's the version of Naruto that overpowered Toneri.


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

Ghost Of The Uchiha said:


> That scaling is flawed since TSB never tanked the Juubidama, they negated it since it was ninjutsu.



Juubidama have nature energy as per Naruto's statement.

Also Juubi tanked the Bjuu Dama and Juubito >>> Juubi.


> A shield of 1TSB was cracked by an enton bsm bijuudama and a shield of 3/4 was destroyed by a sekizo barrage, those attacks are nothing to even say chojo kebutsu let alone juubidama let alone the quad juubidama in question, if the bombs contained senjutsu TSB would have gotten obliterated.



Juubito was having trouble controlling himself.



> Its also completely illogical to put a sword and Gai 's and Naruto's punches above the Juubi Jins strongest attack and overall strongest offense in the manga bar Kaguya's ETSB.



It isn't their strongest attack.



> We saw Obito get a hole in his back by a senpo rasengan, Madara nearly died to Yagai, so you dont need anywhere near continental level output to hurt them and they're alot more durable than say Naruto or Sasuke without their avatar .



Obito was having issues, he was later able to tank more, and could block BSM Naruto and Sasuke while the frog jutsu melted it.

Also. Since you think that Toneri < Juubito than that means that it doesn't matter if Juubito tanked the Juubidama, since he would be moon level regardless.




> Momo is simply a glass cannon, Madara pre immortality tanked two attacks (Yrs and Yagai) who were stronger than the rasengan from base Naruto that killed him.


Naruto got stronger.



> Look i get what you're saying and if Naruto was supposed to be in RSM then i'd give him the victory easily over this Madara but the movie guidebook clarified that he was using Kurama Mode and not RSM, so yes Sasuke would neg this Naruto and Toneri as well.



So Naruto is retarded beyond belief. Good to know.


> In general any rikudo level fighter (JJ Madara, Rinnegan Sasuke etc) would violate a Naruto that's not using RSM or his Avatar regardless of having Hagoromo's chakra and that's the version of Naruto that overpowered Toneri.


So Naruto is retarded beyond belief. Good to know.


----------



## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> Juubito was having trouble controlling himself.



Obito was already in control when that attack happened and the second one referenced Jin Madara in the 8 gates Gai fight, madara effortlessly controlled the juubi, so obviously that argument is fallacious.

I just proved that TSB were flat-out destroyed by far weaker attacks than even what people like Madara or Hashirama can dish out,so its clear that the Juubidama were negated unless you believe Sekizo>Juubidama of course, as the latter did nothing while the former broke through a shield of 3/4.



Esano said:


> Juubidama have nature energy as per Naruto's statement.
> 
> Also Juubi tanked the Bjuu Dama and Juubito >>> Juubi.



Addressed above the first part of your statement.

Juubi tanking its own Bijuudama only  proves it has far superior durability to Juubito who got drilled by a Rasengan ( he was already in control here, he even remarked how bizarre it was for the juubi jin to have such a weakness)  and even Madara who had his entire left side blown off by Night Guy.

And Juubito is> the Juubi because it can focus its power better but it's not superior in every category like for example durability which i just proved isn't even close.

Naruto using the Kurama Avatar can survive Flash Bijuudama detonation, while in his humanoid form he said the Raikage's blows would kill him. 

Madara's PS can take a Bijuudama from Full Kurama and laugh at it yet  he got his body vaporized by Byakugo Tsunade or kyubi enhanced Lee.



Esano said:


> It isn't their strongest attack.



Which is, then? Nunoboko with strong will? CST from Madara?



Esano said:


> Also. Since you think that Toneri < Juubito than that means that it doesn't matter if Juubito tanked the Juubidama, since he would be moon level regardless.



I don't disagree with that.



Esano said:


> Naruto got stronger.



Which i never denied, i also never denied  Momo being small planet or whatever he gets scaled to, just that his durability is nowhere juubi jin level, since it has 0 hype and he died to a weaker attack than what a juubi jin survived.



Esano said:


> So Naruto is retarded beyond belief. Good to know.



Well he was visually depicted as using BSM and then stated to be using said mode in the guidebook, makes no sense but that's what happened.

For what you say to be correct (sorry if i misunderstood but you seemed to imply this) and Toneri being> Rinnegan Sasuke, it would require Naruto having surpassed his previous cloaked RSM power in BSM and i can't in good conscience agree with that, when base RSM was said to be far stronger than Kurama Mode in the databook and Naruto went from getting one-shotted by Rinnegan Madara to nearly overpowering him as a jin.

If i understood you correctly and you believe BSM from the Last is stronger than Rinnegan Sasuke then i wonder how strong you think the adult version of RSM Naruto is ? Above 3 eyed Madara ?


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## UltimaDude (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> Sauske Sword/Naruto Punch > Gai > TSB > Juubidama.
> 
> Yes they were.


You have absolutely nothing to base this on. The strongest punch Naruto threw didn't even put much. Don't tell me, just like with DBZ fanboys and their stupid Ki/AoE control theory, that you think that Naruto and Sasuke can somehow negate the effects of their supposedly continental-level attacks. Night Guy, TSB, and a Juubidama would absolutely destroy Momoshiki.


Esano said:


> And Sakura put a scratch on Kaguya. And thats MORE legit than Borutos and people throw it out.


How is it more legit when Kaguya nearly tanked 9 Bijuu-powered RS? Momoshiki never tanked such an attack that would invalidate Boruto hurting him. Even fact, Momoshiki had to dodge or block all of the Kage's attack. Do they have continental-level attacks too?


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

Ghost Of The Uchiha said:


> Obito was already in control when that attack happened and the second one referenced Jin Madara in the 8 gates Gai fight, madara effortlessly controlled the juubi, so obviously that argument is fallacious.



But he hadn't realized the weakness yet, once he did, he was able to go from Toad oil to BSM Attacks.



> I just proved that TSB were flat-out destroyed by far weaker attacks than even what people like Madara or Hashirama can dish out,so its clear that the Juubidama were negated unless you believe Sekizo>Juubidama of course, as the latter did nothing while the former broke through a shield of 3/4.



Gai doesn't count as "weaker" because that is literally what we are debating.

As I said, The TSB went from Toad Oil attacks hurting them to tanking Naruto + Sasuke...

I believe that Sekizo is more potent, yes. He kicked around a Juubi Jin, And a Jin is >>> Juubi and Juubi easily tanked a dama.




> Addressed above the first part of your statement.
> 
> Juubi tanking its own Bijuudama only  proves it has far superior durability to Juubito who got drilled by a Rasengan ( he was already in control here, he even remarked how bizarre it was for the juubi jin to have such a weakness)  and even Madara who had his entire left side blown off by Night Guy.



The remark is weird, but given later evidence, I see it as him saying the fact he can't negate it completely is weird. He easily tanks BSM Naruto + Sasuke



> And Juubito is> the Juubi because it can focus its power better but it's not superior in every category like for example durability which i just proved isn't even close.



It doesn't make any sense for Obito to be that weak, especially when he later stands between two Hashirama level fighters using Senjutsu easily.



> Naruto using the Kurama Avatar can survive Flash Bijuudama detonation, while in his humanoid form he said the Raikage's blows would kill him.



The Juubi Jin doesn't have an "avatar" though, it's form is what we see. And We arent just talking about his Body we are talking about TSB, which stood up to Senjutsu enhanced KyuubiSusanoo,yet was broken by Gai.



> Madara's PS can take a Bijuudama from Full Kurama and laugh at it yet  he got his body vaporized by Byakugo Tsunade or kyubi enhanced Lee.



The Juubi Jin seems different.

Also that was really dumb. I just have to believe the Kyuubi and Gates super charged each other or something. I have no idea how that happened.



> Which is, then? Nunoboko with strong will? CST from Madara?


Nunoboko, or TSB in general.



> I don't disagree with that.



Good so Gai is Moon level then? I honestly don't remember what we are arguing



> Which i never denied, i also never denied  Momo being small planet or whatever he gets scaled to, just that his durability is nowhere juubi jin level, since it has 0 hype and he died to a weaker attack than what a juubi jin survived.



I'll have to read back over the thread after this, I forgot what the arguement was. Momo has hype as Kaguya was scared of him.



> Well he was visually depicted as using BSM and then stated to be using said mode in the guidebook, makes no sense but that's what happened.


Maybe it doesnt have to look the same.



> For what you say to be correct (sorry if i misunderstood but you seemed to imply this) and Toneri being> Rinnegan Sasuke, it would require Naruto having surpassed his previous cloaked RSM power in BSM and i can't in good conscience agree with that, when base RSM was said to be far stronger than Kurama Mode in the databook and Naruto went from getting one-shotted by Rinnegan Madara to nearly overpowering him as a jin.


I am not saying Toneri>Rinne Sasuke, just not soo far apart that Sasuke would clock him and Naruto. I don't think Naruto using a weak form makes sense, there has to be some explination regarding the form. As you said the Databook even references Sage power. Maybe his "form" has changed.




> If i understood you correctly and you believe BSM from
> the Last is stronger than Rinnegan Sasuke then i wonder how strong you think the adult version of RSM Naruto is ? Above 3 eyed Madara ?



It is possible that they got stronger, and that a "RSM" would be stronger than Madara, sure.

However, it's more that I don't think there is that much of a difference. I may be showing my ignorance here, but maybe his forms work differently now. It just doesn't make sense that Naruto would go easy on Toneri like that. It's more that I don't think Last Naruto could have just easily become more stronger and wrecked Toneri if he wanted too.

I could be wrong, I have only seen the last like once, I never really watched or read much after Naruto itself ended and am mostly just getting back into this stuff now. I just read the Boruto Manga infact.[/quote][/QUOTE]


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> You have absolutely nothing to base this on. The strongest punch Naruto threw didn't even put much. Don't tell me, just like with DBZ fanboys and their stupid Ki/AoE control theory, that you think that Naruto and Sasuke can somehow negate the effects of their supposedly continental-level attacks. Night Guy, TSB, and a Juubidama would absolutely destroy Momoshiki.



I have no idea what you are saying here, seems like 2 different arguments. 

Split durability is bullshit and yes, in DBZ and Naruto, you don't need AOE Damage to have high level attacks. TSB would tear through someone who could tank a Bjuudama even though it is small as fuck. Same with Amaterasu and a hundred other jutsu. 





> How is it more legit when Kaguya nearly tanked 9 Bijuu-powered RS? Momoshiki never tanked such an attack that would invalidate Boruto hurting him. Even fact, Momoshiki had to dodge or block all of the Kage's attack. Do they have continental-level attacks too?



Legit in the sense of character strength doing the feat.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> I have no idea what you are saying here, seems like 2 different arguments.
> 
> Split durability is bullshit and yes, in DBZ and Naruto, you don't need AOE Damage to have high level attacks. TSB would tear through someone who could tank a Bjuudama even though it is small as fuck. Same with Amaterasu and a hundred other jutsu.


So why say that Naruto and Sasuke have continental-level attacks when you're not talking about AoE? But nonetheless, the strikes Naruto and Sasuke dealt to Momoshiki are not stronger than Night Guy, a TSB, and a Juubidama


Esano said:


> Legit in the sense of character strength doing the feat.


Nothing suggest that Momo would be too tough for Boruto to actually inflict some damage


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> So why say that Naruto and Sasuke have continental-level attacks when you're not talking about AoE? But nonetheless, the strikes Naruto and Sasuke dealt to Momoshiki are not stronger than Night Guy, a TSB, and a Juubidama



No I don't mean AoE. Why would they hold back?



> Nothing suggest that Momo would be too tough for Boruto to actually inflict some damage



Kaguya fearing him does.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> No I don't mean AoE. Why would they hold back?


If you don't mean AoE, then don't say that their strikes were continental-level. When did I say that they held back? Nothing ever suggested that they could ever dish out punches/strikes that are stronver than Night Guy and a Juubidama


Esano said:


> Kaguya fearing him does


No it doesn't. Momo is just a bad match-up for her since all she does is throw out ninjutsu which he absorbs


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## sabre320 (Jan 2, 2019)

Ghost Of The Uchiha said:


> That scaling is flawed since TSB never tanked the Juubidama, they negated it since it was ninjutsu.
> 
> A shield of 1TSB was cracked by an enton bsm bijuudama and a shield of 3/4 was destroyed by a sekizo barrage, those attacks are nothing to even say chojo kebutsu let alone juubidama let alone the quad juubidama in question, if the bombs contained senjutsu TSB would have gotten obliterated.
> 
> ...


Juubidamas possess natural energy as the juubi jin who was shown to be immune to standard ninjutsu specifically used tsb shield to tank the juubidamas.also gais sekizo 5th step had enough force to break the shield through sheer force even without any senjutsu......the juubidamas lack of potency was further highlighted when even the 4 hokages merely top tier were able to setup a barrier that casually tanked the juubis super juubidama much larger then itself.....and then a freaking mindless juubito casually ripped the barrier apart as if it was toilet paper with just simple chakra arms not even tsb constructs....


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> If you don't mean AoE, then don't say that their strikes were continental-level. When did I say that they held back? Nothing ever suggested that they could ever dish out punches/strikes that are stronver than Night Guy and a Juubidama


It's called Attack Potency my fren. Simple stuff.



> No it doesn't. Momo is just a bad match-up for her since all she does is throw out ninjutsu which he absorbs



She is physically on par with God tiers. She has TSB. She has many non-absorbable attacks. She has Genjutsu. She wasn't scared because he could absorb things, that's silly. You think she would be scared of the Preta Path Pain Body? lol


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> Juubidamas possess natural energy as the juubi jin who was shown to be immune to standard ninjutsu specifically used tsb shield to tank the juubidamas.also gais sekizo 5th step had enough force to break the shield through sheer force even without any senjutsu......the juubidamas lack of potency was further highlighted when even the 4 hokages merely top tier were able to setup a barrier that casually tanked the juubis super juubidama much larger then itself.....and then a freaking mindless juubito casually ripped the barrier apart as if it was toilet paper with just simple chakra arms not even tsb constructs....


oo thanks I forgot that feat, there is also him making the barrier to stop the 4 Bjuudama casually.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> It's called Attack Potency my fren. Simple stuff


Continental-level attack potency? Yeah, no that makes no sense. You can't use a term that clearly refers to AoE and say it's attack potency. You are doing nothing but baseless speculation.


Esano said:


> She is physically on par with God tiers. She has TSB. She has many non-absorbable attacks. She has Genjutsu. She wasn't scared because he could absorb things, that's silly. You think she would be scared of the Preta Path Pain Body? lol


Momoshiki's absorption technique isn't a simple Preta Path. He can absorb techniques and throw it back many times stronger. He can absorb chakra from Bijuus and turn them into pills that empower him when eaten. Last, but not least, he can suck up an entire Otsutsuki and transform them into a fruit that greatly powers him up when eaten. Kaguya was scared because Momo could practically absorb her.


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> Continental-level attack potency? Yeah, no that makes no sense. You can't use a term that clearly refers to AoE and say it's attack potency. You are doing nothing but baseless speculation.



Are you new to debating? Do you know how these things work? Or do you only debate Naruto? Lets look at dragonball. The SPC blew up what, a mountain range? Yet it killed someone who can tank a planet level attack. Attack potency is measure the same way AOE is, infact I didn't use AoE. Continent level isn't AOE. It is energy. 1 Petaton of TNT worth to be exact.



> Momoshiki's absorption technique isn't a simple Preta Path. He can absorb techniques and throw it back many times stronger. He can absorb chakra from Bijuus and turn them into pills that empower him when eaten. Last, but not least, he can suck up an entire Otsutsuki and transform them into a fruit that greatly powers him up when eaten. Kaguya was scared because Momo could practically absorb her.



The only relevant part is him eating Kinshiki. You think he could just casually wave and do that the Kaguya?


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## UltimaDude (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> Are you new to debating? Do you know how these things work? Or do you only debate Naruto? Lets look at dragonball. The SPC blew up what, a mountain range? Yet it killed someone who can tank a planet level attack. Attack potency is measure the same way AOE is, infact I didn't use AoE. Continent level isn't AOE. It is energy. 1 Petaton of TNT worth to be exact.


So, again, nothing but speculation. Don't be condescending. What are you referring to? Energy is released through two means: a huge amount in mere moments (i.e explosions) and small amounts that pile up over a period of time. You can't have continental-level attack potency, that simply makes no sense. Naruto and Sasuke punches/strikes were not that strong. Don't be delusional


Esano said:


> The only relevant part is him eating Kinshiki. You think he could just casually wave and do that the Kaguya?


Momo eating Kin is not the only relevant part as he can literally absorb almost everything Kaguya throws at him. Kaguya didn't fear Momo and the others for their physical prowess as 
*Chojuro and Gaara made Ura retreat
*Chojuro and Kurotsuchi restricted Kin
*Darui, Gaara, and an unserious Sasuke pushed pre-Kin Momo into a corner
None of the Kages, except for Naruto of course, would ever stand a chance against Kaguya. So the trio, and post-Momo, do not scale to Kaguya like you're suggesting


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> So, again, nothing but speculation. Don't be condescending. What are you referring to? Energy is released through two means: a huge amount in mere moments (i.e explosions) and small amounts that pile up over a period of time. You can't have continental-level attack potency, that simply makes no sense. Naruto and Sasuke punches/strikes were not that strong. Don't be delusional



It's just that it's simple stuff, everyone knows how AP works. Yes you CAN have Continental AP. I GAVE you examples.



> Momo eating Kin is not the only relevant part as he can literally absorb almost everything Kaguya throws at him.



So could preta path.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> It's just that it's simple stuff, everyone knows how AP works. Yes you CAN have Continental AP. I GAVE you examples.


No, it's just speculation. Now answer my question, what were you referring to when you brought up SPC killing someone who tanked a planet explosion


Esano said:


> So could preta path


Can Preta do the things that Momo has done with his Rinnegan which you ignored? Are you going to address my points that debunks your claim of Momo scaling to Kaguya?


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> No, it's just speculation. Now answer my question, what were you referring to when you brought up SPC killing someone who tanked a planet explosion



It's literally how every thread on the OBD goes down.

Raditz.



> Can Preta do the things that Momo has done with his Rinnegan which you ignored? Are you going to address my points that debunks your claim of Momo scaling to Kaguya?



Shooting out doesn't make that big of a difference.

The Kage got shitstomped after Momo absorbed Kin


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## sabre320 (Jan 2, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> No, it's just speculation. Now answer my question, what were you referring to when you brought up SPC killing someone who tanked a planet explosion
> 
> Can Preta do the things that Momo has done with his Rinnegan which you ignored? Are you going to address my points that debunks your claim of Momo scaling to Kaguya?


Are u seriously claiming attack potency is a myth??.........tenpenchi from the juubi had a aoe explosion larger then freaking vote yet couldnt even freaking pierce a kn1 cloak stretched over thousands....a simple raiden from kakashi was able to cut multiple v2 limbs from the edo jins.....get it attack potency.....

second momo needed compliance from kinshiki to be eaten he specifically shouted for him to be converted and prepped for it.....how is that relevant to an actual enemy...you think he can just turn naruto and sasuke into fruits and won? Second kaguya has ashbones that are kinjutsu that completely bypass momos defense and absorption and oneshot him....she also has a superior s/t technique to sasukes which trolled fused momo and worst of all in god vacuum palm has taijutsu that easily crushes rikudo and flattens momo bypassing hsi defense....hell her only nuke is the giant dimension busting inyondon which via yinyang completely negates pretas and absorption again...


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## UltimaDude (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> It's literally how every thread on the OBD goes down.
> 
> Raditz


That literally doesn't make it right

Raditz never tanked a planet explosion. You saying miss-spelling SBC as SPC is what threw me off


Esano said:


> Shooting out doesn't make that big of a difference.
> 
> The Kage got shitstomped after Momo absorbed Kin


Shooting the attacks out with much greater power doesn't make a big difference? Manipulating the attacks doesn't make a big a difference? Turning people's chakra into power-enhancing pills doesn't make a big difference? Turning an entire being into a power-enhancing fruit doesn't make a big difference? These are all the things that Momo could potentially do to Kaguya. You can't compare Momo's techniques to that of a Preta Path Pain

Post-Kin Momo still doesn't scale to Kaguya


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## UltimaDude (Jan 2, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> Are u seriously claiming attack potency is a myth??.........tenpenchi from the juubi had a aoe explosion larger then freaking vote yet couldnt even freaking pierce a kn1 cloak stretched over thousands....a simple raiden from kakashi was able to cut multiple v2 limbs from the edo jins.....get it attack potency.....


You are comparing an explosion to a cutting attack. These are two different types of damage that can't be compared. Attack potency my foot. Even still, are you going to say that Kakashi's Raikiri is Tenpachii+-level? I doubt it



sabre320 said:


> second momo needed compliance from kinshiki to be eaten he specifically shouted for him to be converted and prepped for it.....how is that relevant to an actual enemy...you think he can just turn naruto and sasuke into fruits and won? Second kaguya has ashbones that are kinjutsu that completely bypass momos defense and absorption and oneshot him....she also has a superior s/t technique to sasukes which trolled fused momo and worst of all in god vacuum palm has taijutsu that easily crushes rikudo and flattens momo bypassing hsi defense....hell her only nuke is the giant dimension busting inyondon which via yinyang completely negates pretas and absorption again...


Nothing suggested that Momo needed Kin's compliance to be turned into a fruit. The fruit morphing may only be applicable to Otsutsukis. Kaguya's ashbones is still ninjutsu, so they are getting absorbed. There's no evidence that TSBs negate absorption. But regardless, I never claimed that Momo beats Kaguya. Maybe you should read my earlier post where I said that Momo doesn't scale to Kaguya and the only thing that threatens her is his absorption ability


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## sabre320 (Jan 2, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> You are comparing an explosion to a cutting attack. These are two different types of damage that can't be compared. Attack potency my foot. Even still, are you going to say that Kakashi's Raikiri is Tenpachii+-level? I doubt it
> 
> 
> Nothing suggested that Momo needed Kin's compliance to be turned into a fruit. The fruit morphing may only be applicable to Otsutsukis. Kaguya's ashbones is still ninjutsu, so they are getting absorbed. There's no evidence that TSBs negate absorption. But regardless, I never claimed that Momo beats Kaguya. Maybe you should read my earlier post where I said that Momo doesn't scale to Kaguya and the only thing that threatens her is his absorption ability



Sigh you really are being obtuse...lets put this into another comparison....tenpenchi couldnt even bust freaking kn1 cloaks...yet kirin another explosive attack busted v3 sussano....yet it is only large hill level while tenpenchi was larger then vote.... the juubis super juubidama couldnt even scratch the hokage barrier yet mindless juubitos mere chakra arms ripped it apart like toilet paper....something that could take hundreds of teratons of energy without any effect was ripped apart by sheer force from a weaker juubitos chakra arm yet you claim potency dosent exist even though hachibi specifically noted from this feat that now juubito could focus that power into a focal points... i could give several more examples but its better if you acknowledge your mistake here.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 2, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> Sigh you really are being obtuse...lets put this into another comparison....tenpenchi couldnt even bust freaking kn1 cloaks...yet kirin another explosive attack busted v3 sussano....yet it is only large hill level while tenpenchi was larger then vote.... the juubis super juubidama couldnt even scratch the hokage barrier yet mindless juubitos mere chakra arms ripped it apart like toilet paper....something that could take hundreds of teratons of energy without any effect was ripped apart by sheer force from a weaker juubitos chakra arm yet you claim potency dosent exist i could give several more examples but its better if you acknowledge your mistake here.


Stop be so pretentious. Naruto was knocked out of KCM, so is KN1 cloak >>> KCM cloak? I don't think so. What likely did happen is that Naruto kept pouring chakra into the cloaks to keep them from giving out, hence why he had his hands clapped together IIRC. We don't know for certain what version of Susanoo Itachi used.

*Spoiler*: _Kirin is...._ 









*Spoiler*: _much more........._ 









*Spoiler*: _than....._ 









*Spoiler*: _hill-level _ 








Energy of the Juubidama explosion was diverted upwards so it wasn't like the Hokage barrier fully contained the explosion. You would have a point if Juubito used a TBB or something to explode the Hokage barrier into smithereens, but he didn't. Instead, he ripped it apart. Tension =/= An explosion. If anyone's obtuse it's you for confusing "attack potency" with different applications of force.


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## Esano (Jan 3, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> That literally doesn't make it right
> 
> Raditz never tanked a planet explosion. You saying miss-spelling SBC as SPC is what threw me off



No logic makes it right. 
He survived a planet level attack.



> Shooting the attacks out with much greater power doesn't make a big difference? Manipulating the attacks doesn't make a big a difference? Turning people's chakra into power-enhancing pills doesn't make a big difference? Turning an entire being into a power-enhancing fruit doesn't make a big difference? These are all the things that Momo could potentially do to Kaguya. You can't compare Momo's techniques to that of a Preta Path Pain
> 
> Post-Kin Momo still doesn't scale to Kaguya



I mean it matters but it isn't that big of a deal.

You think Momo could absorb Kaguya.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 3, 2019)

Esano said:


> He survived a planet level attack.


He never did


Esano said:


> I mean it matters but it isn't that big of a deal.
> 
> You think Momo could absorb Kaguya


It is a very big deal

Yes, potentially. His absorbing technique is his only chance of beating her


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## Esano (Jan 3, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> He never did


 


> It is a very big deal
> 
> Yes, potentially. His absorbing technique is his only chance of beating her



How is it a big deal if it doesn't even count as a chance of beating her? How would it even help him?

There is no reason to think he could just wave his hand and absorb her, unless he is stronger.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 3, 2019)

Esano said:


> How is it a big deal if it doesn't even count as a chance of beating her? How would it even help him?
> 
> There is no reason to think he could just wave his hand and absorb her, unless he is stronger.


That isn't even close to planet-level. How did you come to that ridiculous conclusion?

So absorbing her already powerful attacks and throwing them back at her even more powerful than before wouldn't help? Transforming whatever chakra he manages to absorb directly from her into power-enhancing pills wouldn't help? Possibly transforming her into a fruit wouldn't help? What are you even asking? Momo's absorbing techniques are the only thing that makes Momo threatening to Kaguya. His physical prowess, pre and post-Kin, are not even close to that of Kaguya's. Momo does not scale to Kaguya in any way, so you can't say thaf he is tanky. Stop trying to run away from what we were talking about (Momo's durablity).


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## Esano (Jan 3, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> That isn't even close to planet-level. How did you come to that ridiculous conclusion?



Because Piccolo is casually planet level.





> So absorbing her already powerful attacks and throwing them back at her even more powerful than before wouldn't help? Transforming whatever chakra he manages to absorb directly from her into power-enhancing pills wouldn't help? Possibly transforming her into a fruit wouldn't help? What are you even asking? Momo's absorbing techniques are the only thing that makes Momo threatening to Kaguya. His physical prowess, pre and post-Kin, are not even close to that of Kaguya's. Momo does not scale to Kaguya in any way, so you can't say thaf he is tanky. Stop trying to run away from what we were talking about (Momo's durablity).



Why are we talking about Momo's durability anyway?


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## UltimaDude (Jan 3, 2019)

Esano said:


> Because Piccolo is casually planet level


So you're basing it on nothing? Got it


Esano said:


> Why are we talking about Momo's durability anyway?



*Spoiler*: _Ultimately, because of this post_ 





Mar55 said:


> Even ignoring that, Naruto tanked that very attack. Meaning Momo also scales from it, as even Toneri referred to him and Kin as "Gods." He also had a multi-country busting TBB in base, and was damaging Kurama avatar and Perfect Susano'o, he carries more potency than Toneri.
> 
> Naruto's Rasengan being thought of as just "a base Rasengan" is faulty, The Last demonstrated he can focus higher forms of power to a point, while otherwise remaining in base. Considering it overpowered Momo's own Rasengan, killed him in a huge explosion in the atmosphere and that Momo could handle his TBB attacks detonating at point blank, it's clearly very far above just a simply base Ultra Big Ball Rasengan.


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## MarF (Jan 3, 2019)

Many fictional characters can concentrate their attacks resulting in a smaller AoE but that doesn't make the attack any weaker.

BoZ Piccolo is Small planet level and that comes from him destroying the moon in an explosion so violent it was calced at small planet level.
Mind you his moonbuster was extremely casual, he didn't even charge his attack to do it. In the same arc Raditz tanks a full power attack from Piccolo without sustaining any damage meaning Raditz has small planet level durability. Later on an enraged kid gohan smashes his armor and staggers him with a headbutt that doesn't cause a gigantic explosion.


It's also not necessary to destroy something to reach a certain tier. Energy can be measured from a variety of feats.

And energy can be converted into x amount of TNT which in turn give's you a universal scale to compare characters from different fictions in a somewhat accurate way.



For example Pain arc Naruto's SM FRS catapulted a bunch of massive boulders km's high into the sky the energy needed for that is so high, if you converted it into a bomb it would have a explosive yield in the single digit Gigaton range of TNT aka Island lvl.

In the War arc a bunch of Sarutobi clan fodder dried a massive amount of cement in a very short timeframe by using Katons. The end result is each of them sitting in the low double digit Kilotons which is town+ level.

These terms and the style of debating is usually used in the OBD but lately its started to get used here as well.



UltimaDude said:


> So absorbing her already powerful attacks and throwing them back at her even more powerful than before wouldn't help? Transforming whatever chakra he manages to absorb directly from her into power-enhancing pills wouldn't help? Possibly transforming her into a fruit wouldn't help? What are you even asking? Momo's absorbing techniques are the only thing that makes Momo threatening to Kaguya. His physical prowess, pre and post-Kin, are not even close to that of Kaguya's. Momo does not scale to Kaguya in any way, so you can't say thaf he is tanky. Stop trying to run away from what we were talking about (Momo's durablity).



Momoshiki never absorbed anything that's even close to the firepower that Kaguya can dish out, saying he can absorb her attacks and throw them back even stronger is a no limits fallacy.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 3, 2019)

MarF said:


> Many fictional characters can concentrate their attacks resulting in a smaller AoE but that doesn't make the attack any weaker.
> 
> BoZ Piccolo is Small planet level and that comes from him destroying the moon in an explosion so violent it was calced at small planet level.
> Mind you his moonbuster was extremely casual, he didn't even charge his attack to do it. In the same arc Raditz tanks a full power attack from Piccolo without sustaining any damage meaning Raditz has small planet level durability. Later on an enraged kid gohan smashes his armor and staggers him with a headbutt that doesn't cause a gigantic explosion.
> ...


Yeah, no. AoE control is nothing but a fallacious term that DBZ fanboys made up in an attempt to explain the inconsistencies

Piccolo's moon-busting feat is an outlier, unless you are also suggesting that all Ki attacks from then onwards are just short of light speed. Vegeta's first use of the Final Flash and Goku's first use of the Instant Kamehameha debunk the notion that AoE control exists in the DBZ universe

The probelm is that you are always converting energy in terms of explosive yield. Not all energy are the same and can be used the same way.

Take the Sarutobi fodders, for example. They didn't use explosive energy, so you can't say they are town-level. What they used is thermal energy, which is an entirely different type of energy


MarF said:


> Momoshiki never absorbed anything that's even close to the firepower that Kaguya can dish out, saying he can absorb her attacks and throw them back even stronger is a no limits fallacy.


So explaining Momo's absorbing ability is a NLF? A NLF would be if I said that he can absorb the ETSB. Anyways, my point was that Momo's only chance of standing up to Kaguya is through his absorbing technique


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## Esano (Jan 3, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> So you're basing it on nothing? Got it



Glad to know you don't think power scaling exists. Piccolo blew up a moon, and he couldn't hurt Raditz.


Ok so yeah. Barely mentioned durability. And he DID tank his attacks which were effective on Sasuke and Naruto...Yes it is inconsistent, sure, with the Kage and Boruto stuff, but your going low as much as I am going high. Esp since we don't know how strong the Kage were and Boruto used Naruto's Rasengan power.

Also Naruto and Sauske were pretty confident they could take what they assumed was a Kaguya level threat.


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## Esano (Jan 3, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> Anyways, my point was that Momo's only chance of standing up to Kaguya is through his absorbing technique



Which is why she was terrified and was _killed her own kids _to build an army against him. 

Instead of... you know... blitzing and one shotting him.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 3, 2019)

Esano said:


> Glad to know you don't think power scaling exists.
> 
> Ok so yeah. Barely mentioned durability. And he DID tank his attacks which were effective on Sasuke and Naruto...Yes it is inconsistent, sure, with the Kage and Boruto stuff, but your going low as much as I am going high. Esp since we don't know how strong the Kage were and Boruto used Naruto's Rasengan power.
> 
> Also Naruto and Sauske were pretty confident they could take what they assumed was a Kaguya level threat.


So, again, nothing but flawed logic? Ok, makes sense

It's what started this meaningless argument. No, he did not as I already pointed out. He was very high in both cases. I'm not going low, I'm using what was shown. You're only say that it's inconsistent because it goes against your claims

The Kages prove that the trio did not have physical prowess (which includes durability) on par with Kaguya. So the only way that they even pose a threat to her is via their absorbing ability


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## Esano (Jan 3, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> So, again, nothing but flawed logic? Ok, makes sense


It's what started this meaningless argument. No, he did not as I already pointed out. He was very high in both cases. I'm not going low, I'm using what was shown. You're only say that it's inconsistent because it goes against your claims



> It's what started this meaningless argument. No, he did not as I already pointed out. He was very high in both cases. I'm not going low, I'm using what was shown. You're only say that it's inconsistent because it goes against your claims
> 
> The Kages prove that the trio did not have physical prowess (which includes durability) on par with Kaguya. So the only way that they even pose a threat to her is via their absorbing ability




I've only continued this because of the Power scaling attack argument tbh.

He matched Naruto and Sasuke and they needed to break out Susanoo+Kyuubi to beat him.

He basically one shot the Kage once he fused (well, in the manga ).


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## UltimaDude (Jan 3, 2019)

Esano said:


> Which is why she was terrified and was _killed her own kids _to build an army against him.
> 
> Instead of... you know... blitzing and one shotting him


Considering she went insane a merged herself with the Shinju to become Ten-Tails after finding out that her children were born with chakra.....I don't see why she wouldn't make an army of powerless beings against people who can potentially take her chakra away


Esano said:


> I've only continued this because of the Power scaling attack argument tbh.
> 
> He matched Naruto and Sasuke and they needed to break out Susanoo+Kyuubi to beat him.
> 
> He basically one shot the Kage once he fused (well, in the manga ).


Whateves

He matched a weaken Naruto and a Sasuke who could have also been weakened. They needed the Susanoo + Kurama combo to destroy the golem. Momo kept going after that

The manga version is irrelevant as the anime rewritten it. Also, post-Kin Momo is irrelevant, it's the trio we are talking about.

Also, learn to freaking edit your posts and not to pyramid quote.


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## Mar55 (Jan 3, 2019)

I'm famous, who knew?


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## Esano (Jan 3, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> Considering she went insane a merged herself with the Shinju to become Ten-Tails after finding out that her children were born with chakra.....I don't see why she wouldn't make an army of powerless beings against people who can potentially take her chakra away



I guess you could argue she was being crazy, her sons were actually a threat though. If Momo is just 100% fodder, I don't see why Kaguya would need an army. Absorbtion or not. She should just blitzstomp



> He matched a weaken Naruto and a Sasuke who could have also been weakened. They needed the Susanoo + Kurama combo to destroy the golem. Momo kept going after that



True, they were weakened. Is that really enough to make them Kage/Boruto level?

The Golem was Momos


> The manga version is irrelevant as the anime rewritten it. Also, post-Kin Momo is irrelevant, it's the trio we are talking about.


They are both Canon, if anything, the Manga is more Canon.



> Also, learn to freaking edit your posts and not to pyramid quote.


Sorry, been making a lot of replies. I usually go back and fix them.  My B.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 3, 2019)

Esano said:


> She thought they would help her win


I know she did. My point was that she likely tried to make an army of Zetsus (who don't have any chakra) to swarm the trio, who all (though, I'm not too sure about Kin) can absorb chakra in rather unique ways


Esano said:


> True, they were weakened. Is that really enough to make them Kage/Boruto level?


I never said that they were Kage/Boruto level. They're obviously much higher than that


Esano said:


> They are both Canon, if anything, the Manga is more Canon.


Nope, the anime is more canon. As I've already explained, the writers of the anime send their scripts to Kodachi (the writer of the manga). So pretty much, the anime is the true canon


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## Esano (Jan 3, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> I know she did. My point was that she likely tried to make an army of Zetsus (who don't have any chakra) to swarm the trio, who all (though, I'm not too sure about Kin) can absorb chakra in rather unique ways



Yeah I read your post wrong. My post has been edited.


> I never said that they were Kage/Boruto level. They're obviously much higher than that



Why? If the Kage gave them trouble



> Nope, the anime is more canon. As I've already explained, the writers of the anime send their scripts to Kodachi (the writer of the manga). So pretty much, the anime is the true canon



I didn't see that comment. The Manga has come before the anime (Though the movie came first here), and the Anime is following the Manga arcs. However, I have just started reading/watching Boruto and don't know 100% what is canon and what isn't.


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## strongestrinneganuser (Jan 3, 2019)

madara


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## Grinningfox (Jan 3, 2019)

Esano said:


> Yeah I read your post wrong. My post has been edited.
> 
> 
> Why? If the Kage gave them trouble
> ...



The Boruto Anime is unique in the sense that the anime is THE canon, with the Manga being the MAIN PLOT and the anime being all the stuff Kodachi can’t add due to the monthly release .


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## UltimaDude (Jan 4, 2019)

Esano said:


> I guess you could argue she was being crazy, her sons were actually a threat though. If Momo is just 100% fodder, I don't see why Kaguya would need an army. Absorbtion or not. She should just blitzstomp


But seeing as how the Kages were able to deal with the trio, Kaguya was simply being paranoid of their absorbtion ability. That's it


Esano said:


> Why? If the Kage gave them trouble


What do you mean why? Why you being dense? The Kages dealt with them with only some difficulty. Naruto and a serious Sasuke only stepped in when post-Kin Momo appeared. Even then, they were able to counter his moves with some difficulty. Not to mention, Naruto (and possibly Sasuke) were drained (Naruto, even more so) and they were limited to taijutsu throughout most of the fight.


Esano said:


> I didn't see that comment. The Manga has come before the anime (Though the movie came first here), and the Anime is following the Manga arcs. However, I have just started reading/watching Boruto and don't know 100% what is canon and what isn't.


The anime basically retcons the stuff that happens in the manga


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## Esano (Jan 4, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> But seeing as how the Kages were able to deal with the trio, Kaguya was simply being paranoid of their absorbtion ability. That's it



That doesn't make sense and is your own personal interpretation



> What do you mean why? Why you being dense? The Kages dealt with them with only some difficulty. Naruto and a serious Sasuke only stepped in when post-Kin Momo appeared. Even then, they were able to counter his moves with some difficulty. Not to mention, Naruto (and possibly Sasuke) were drained (Naruto, even more so) and they were limited to taijutsu throughout most of the fight.



We have been talking about Post-Kin. Anyway, so where would you place them then? Madara EMS level? Rinnegan Madara? Juubito? Hashi?

Their speed and Taijutsu are insane, as I have gone over before.



> The anime basically retcons the stuff that happens in the manga



How so?


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## Esano (Jan 4, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> The Boruto Anime is unique in the sense that the anime is THE canon, with the Manga being the MAIN PLOT and the anime being all the stuff Kodachi can’t add due to the monthly release .


Is this your interpretation or stated fact?

We don't know what is added and what wasn't. I don't personally think the Anime is non-canon, but that the Manga is just as if not more so canon.

I could be wrong though.


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## Grinningfox (Jan 4, 2019)

Esano said:


> Is this your interpretation or stated fact?
> 
> We don't know what is added and what wasn't. I don't personally think the Anime is non-canon, but that the Manga is just as if not more so canon.
> 
> I could be wrong though.



There’s a thread about it on here

Ask platypus


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## UltimaDude (Jan 4, 2019)

Esano said:


> That doesn't make sense and is your own personal interpretation


How so? It's much better than your implications which the anime itself debunks. Why do you think Kaguya felt threatened of the trio? It's clearly not because of their physical prowess, that's for sure


Esano said:


> We have been talking about Post-Kin. Anyway, so where would you place them then? Madara EMS level? Rinnegan Madara? Juubito? Hashi?
> 
> Their speed and Taijutsu are insane, as I have gone over before.


No we haven't. You kept up mentioning post-Kin Momo which has nothing to do with Kaguya's perceived threat of the trio. I honestly don't know where to place the trio


Esano said:


> How so?


For example, in the manga, there was no scene of Boruto activating his BS dojutsu since the flash-forward in the first chapter. This heavily implies that he gets it much later and possibly had it transplanted since there was a scar across the eye. But in the anime, where it began with Boruto in his academy days (and in the very first episode, IIRC), Boruto is seen unknowingly activating his BS dojutsu when he senses negative emotion. This is one of the many changes/retcons that the anime makes.


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## Esano (Jan 4, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> How so? It's much better than your implications which the anime itself debunks. Why do you think Kaguya felt threatened of the trio? It's clearly not because of their physical prowess, that's for sure



Because why would she fear the absorbtion if these guys are so weak?



> No we haven't. You kept up mentioning post-Kin Momo which has nothing to do with Kaguya's perceived threat of the trio. I honestly don't know where to place the trio



You assume she knows the absorbtion ability but wouldn't be worried about combined level power? That would make more sense as to why she would fear them.




> For example, in the manga, there was no scene of Boruto activating his BS dojutsu since the flash-forward in the first chapter. This heavily implies that he gets it much later and possibly had it transplanted since there was a scar across the eye. But in the anime, where it began with Boruto in his academy days (and in the very first episode, IIRC), Boruto is seen unknowingly activating his BS dojutsu when he senses negative emotion. This is one of the many changes/retcons that the anime makes.


 The Manga never showed his academy days though. We don't know what will happen with his doujutus yet. The anime has added lore but it didn't retcon.Boruto also _still _has a scar in the anime. It doesn't mean it was trasplanted, there could be more too it.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 4, 2019)

Esano said:


> Because why would she fear the absorbtion if these guys are so weak?


Because Momo's (I'm not quite sure about the others) absorption ability is quite powerful. It's even more powerful than Kaguya's. Why wouldn't a chakra obsessed freak be paranoid of someone who could take her chakra away.


Esano said:


> You assume she knows the absorbtion ability but wouldn't be worried about combined level power? That would make more sense as to why she would fear them


Seeing as how post-Kin Momo wasn't strong enough to be an exhausted Naruto and a possibly exhausted Sasuke, it's clear that the threat wasn't their physical might.


Esano said:


> The Manga never showed his academy days though. We don't know what will happen with his doujutus yet. The anime has added lore but it didn't retcon.Boruto also _still _has a scar in the anime. It doesn't mean it was trasplanted, there could be more too it.


In the anime, Boruto was seen activating his BS dojutsu against Momo. Momo even commented that Boruto has some Otsutsuki power. This was never seen in the manga. It's a retcon. You're missing my point with the flash-forward implication. Ever since it appeared in the first chapter, there were no panels whatsoever of Boruto activating his BS dojutsu? So, what does this mean? He awakens/obtains it later in the story. But the anime has revealed that Boruto has had it at least since his academy days. This is a retcon. The anime will likely do more retcons/changes as it "adapts" the manga arcs


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## Streak (Jan 5, 2019)

Toneri stomps.


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## jonnty6 (Jan 5, 2019)

I always assumed anything after shippuden they're just stronger with progression like any other anime.


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