# Rank these Characters by their Tactical Skills



## Kazekage94 (Jul 4, 2014)

Title says it all

Tsunade
Minato
Gaara
Guy
Kakashi
Itachi
Ohnoki
Chiyo
Hebi Sasuke
Ay
Tobirama


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## Alex Payne (Jul 4, 2014)

Kakashi ~ Itachi ~> Tobirama ~> Minato > Hebi Sasuke ~> Gaara~Onoki~Chiyo > Tsunade > A ~ Gai


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## Senjuclan (Jul 4, 2014)

01. Kakashi
02. Tobirama
03. Itachi
04. Minato
05. Hebi Sasuke
06. Chiyo
07. Tsunade
08. Gaara
09. Ohnoki
10. Guy
11. Ay


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## crisler (Jul 4, 2014)

Tobirama >= Itachi = Minato = Kakashi >= Oonoki >= Sasuke = Gaara = Chiyo > Gai = Tsunade = A


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## Turrin (Jul 4, 2014)

In terms of tactics there are basically three categories that matter

Intelligence
Knowledge
Unpredictability

I'll rank each character in these categories out of 10

Tsunade:

Intelligence: 8 (5 in DB and very intelligent, but nothing puts her up there with the greats)
Knowledge: 9 (50 Year Old Sannin, plus War Crash Course in Legendary Shinobi techniques)
Unpredictability: 4 (The nature of Byakugo and her superhuman-strength gives her some unpredictability, but beyond that, she's pretty by the book)

Total: 21

Minato:
Intelligence: 8 (Clearly a very intelligent guy, but nothing puts him up there with the greats)
Knowledge: 9 (Seemed to know a great deal about everything in the Naruto world and fought in numerous wars)
Unpredictability: 6 (FTG lends itself heavily to unpredictability and he has KB, but hasn't shown much beyond that in terms of dedicated tactics)

Total: 24

Gaara:
Intelligence: 7 (Very Intelligent, had a 4 in DBIII, and has gotten better since then)
Knowledge: 7 (Gained tons of knowledge during the War Crash Course and was already knowledgable to begin with)
Unpredictability: 7 (Shown high skill with KB-Feints and deceptive sand tactics)

Total: 21


Guy
Intelligence: 4 (Not very bright, but not totally dumb ether)
Knowledge: 7 (Has fought in multiple wars and got a huge crash course in this one)
Unpredictability: 5 (Gai's Taijutsu style and personality lends to unpredictability, but he doesn't quite utilize that unpredictability as much as Lee)

Total: 16

Kakashi
Intelligence: 9 (Compared to SPII Shikkamaru and 5 in DB)
Knowledge: 9 (Copied Many Techniques, Fought in numerous Ninja-wars, has gotten many crash course in fighting styles and abilities throughout the manga, etc...)
Unpredictability: 8 (Kakashi's Clone Feints and Mastery of over 1,000 Jutsu lend heavily to this)

Total: 26

Itachi
Intelligence: 9 (Insert Itachi-fan wanking here)
Knowledge: 9 (Insert Kabuto wanking here)
Unpredictability: 7 (Itachi is good with KB and his MS techs lend to some unpredictability as well)

Total: 25

Ohnoki
Intelligence: 7 (Seems very intelligent, but no absolutely amazing feats or hype that stands out to me)
Knowledge: 10 (Dude is potentially the oldest living Shinobi)
Unpredictability: 7 (Onoki's Iwabushin, weight control, flight, and personality all lend heavily to raising his unpredictability)

Total: 24

Chiyo:

Intelligence: 8 (Very Intelligent, reading through Sasori's traps and tactis on the fly, and has 5 in DBIII)
Knowledge: 10 (Again one of the oldest characters ever)
Unpredictability: 9 (As one of the greatest puppet masters in history she is extremely unpredictable)

Total: 27


Hebi Sasuke
Intelligence: 6 (Obviously an intelligent guy, but I don't think he's quite as good as Gaara, only had a 3.5 in DB III too)
Knowledge: 6 (Decent amount of knowledge having stayed with Orochimaru for all those years)
Unpredictability: 5 (Sasuke's Shuriken Traps, Chidori Variants, and Sharingan lend to his unpredictability, but he's not the best)

Total: 17

Ay
Intelligence: 2 (Dude is kind of dumb brute, what can I say  )
Knowledge: 7 (He's been around the block enough to gather a fair amount of knowledge)
Unpredictability: 2 (Dude is muscle bound man that runs at you. His sudden increase in speed is the only thing keeping him from being a 1 or a 0 here)

Total: 11

Tobirama
Intelligence: 9 (Obviously insanely intelligent, inventing tons of Jutsu and all his other good feats)
Knowledge: 10 (Dude has been in several shinobi wars, researched countless things, etc...)
Unpredictability: 10 (FTG lends itself to this, but Tobirama utilizes many tactics specifically targeted around unpredictability like Tandem Explosive Tags, Hiraishingiri, hidden needles, etc...)

Total: 29

------------------ 

Ranked in Order:

1. Tobirama
2. Chiyo
3. Kakashi
4. Itachi
5-6. Minato/Onoki
7-8. Tsunade/Gaara
9. Hebi Sasuke
10. Gai
11. Ei

Bare in mind this is talking about the average of who would perform better out of 100 matches between 100 different opponents. It is not however saying that Chiyo will always perform better than Kakashi, or even Hebi-Sasuke in tactics, it's just saying that out 100 matches she'll perform better than Kakashi or Hebi-Sauske in more matches, than they perform better than her.

Edit: Quite honestly their might be a some flaws here, because I'm not sure intelligence matters as much as knowledge and unpredictability. However since it wouldn't change the rankings that much anyway I didn't get into that.


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## Cognitios (Jul 4, 2014)

1. Itachi
2. Kakashi
3. Tobirama
4. Hebi Sasuke
5. Minato
6. Chiyo
7. Onoki
8. Tsunade
9. Gaara
10. Gai
11. Ei


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## Bonly (Jul 4, 2014)

Kakashi
Itachi 
Minato 
Tobirama  
Hebi Sasuke 
Gaara
Onoki/Gai
Chiyo/Tsunade 
A


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 4, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Kakashi
> Itachi
> Minato
> Tobirama
> ...



Why wouldn't Minato be number 1 just asking?


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## Turrin (Jul 4, 2014)

How is Chiyo getting ranked so low. She has 73 years of battle experience, some of the most unpredictable tactics being a puppet master, and is an extremely intelligent individual. The only ones who should even be discussed in the same breath as Chiyo are Kakashi, Tobirama, Itachi, and maybe Onoki


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## Bonly (Jul 4, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Why wouldn't Minato be number 1 just asking?



A better question would be why did you only ask me this when so far no one else in the thread put Minato at number one. But to answer your question it's because I don't see his tactical skills above Itachi+Kakashi(hence his ranking).


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## Rocky (Jul 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How is Chiyo getting ranked so low. She has 73 years of battle experience.



She's been alive for 73 years. That doesn't translate to 73 years of combat experience.

That said, it doesn't matter anyway. Sometimes, younger people can be far wiser and more knowledgeable than their elders; it depends on their education and capacity to retain information. Chiyo shouldn't get a ten in knowledge just because she is old. 



> Some of the most unpredictable tactics being a puppet master.



This I simply don't understand. At all. Puppet Masters can be read through their fingers, thus becoming _more_ predictable than most. It's one of their weaknesses, and that _isn't_ my opinion either.


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## Dr. White (Jul 4, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Kakashi
> Itachi
> Minato
> Tobirama
> ...



Why is Minato > Tobirama?

Minato doesn't even have Hebi Sauce Feats. I'd put him next to Gaara for being smart people with good strategy. I'd put Hebi Sauce there too but the feat gap is big. Tobirama, Itachi, and Kakashi are on a tier of their own.


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## Rocky (Jul 4, 2014)

What were Tobirama's tactical feats again?


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## Dr. White (Jul 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What were Tobirama's tactical feats again?



Uhm I don't know did you miss the Juubito fight?

Since Tobirama's been brought back he has been disaplyed as the most keen and tactical one of the group. He essentially headed the Juubito fight in a pure tactical sense, only people with knowledge really helped in any other way IIRC.

Now what are Minato's feats?


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## Rocky (Jul 4, 2014)

Minato has two that I can think of off the top of my head.

I'll tell you what they are when you link me to Tobirama's feats so I can actually compare them, because I don't know what you're talking about, specifically.


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## Dr. White (Jul 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Minato has two that I can think of off the top of my head.
> 
> I'll tell you what they are when you link me to Tobirama's feats so I can actually compare them, because I don't know what you're talking about, specifically.



-Direct comparison to Shikamaru a tactical genius > Minato.

-He orchestrated the Double FTG chain where Sasuke and Naruto hit Obito.

-He deduced Obito's Yin/Yang weapons

-He deduced Senjutsu affected the shield .

-He deduced the best way to deal with Obito's Ying/Yang ball that almost soloed Sasuke and Naruto.

I don't really feel like reading all the way back through since when Tobirama was introduced, but Tobirama has undoubtedly been portrayed as the most tactical, perceptive Hokage of the bunch. Minato is smart we have known this, but way more flaky, and not as smart as tobi, Itachi, and Kakashi are constantly being portrayed as.

Being intelligent and tactical is essentially apart of Itachi's Tobirama's and Kakashi's character, while it isn't so much for Minato.


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## Veracity (Jul 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Minato has two that I can think of off the top of my head.
> 
> I'll tell you what they are when you link me to Tobirama's feats so I can actually compare them, because I don't know what you're talking about, specifically.



Rocky we have been over this shit. Minato is not possibly smarter then Tobirama lol.

• Minato is a sage user yet Tobirama and Naruto were the only ones to find out Juubitos weakness despite the former not even utilizing senjutsu. 
•Tobirama had to tell Minato himself that his arm wasn't regenerating back.
• Tobirama could give the name and ability of all the sage techniques despite them not being used for centuries.

-Point is , Minato isn't perceptive in the slightest bit at ALL. You can't deny that Tobirama is tiers more perceptive then anyone in the manga except for possibly itcahi and Kakashi.

They are canonically tied in battle tactics considering Tobirama and Minato basically came up with the mutually revolving FTG technique at the same time at the spot. Other then that, Minato has far more manga time then Tobirama so you can't says he's superior simply because of that. 

Knowledge and experience isn't even debatable. Tobirama simply has more then Minato. At the end of the day there is virtually no argument you can make to assume Minato > Tobirama.

OT:
Tobirama 
Kakashi 
Itcahi
Minato 
Chiyo| Sauce| Tsuande 
Onoki 
Gaara 
Gai 
Ay.


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## Rocky (Jul 4, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Direct comparison to Shikamaru a tactical genius > Minato.



I see Tobirama being called smarter than Hashirama, not as smart as Shikamaru...



> -He orchestrated the Double FTG chain where Sasuke and Naruto hit Obito.



Indeed. That's one.



> -He deduced Obito's Yin/Yang weapons
> 
> -He deduced Senjutsu affected the shield .



These are observational skills, not strategy. These are more useful for arguments that support Tobirama being insightful, not tactical.



> He deduced the best way to deal with Obito's Ying/Yang ball that almost soloed Sasuke and Naruto.



This is the same as your second point....

_____

I agree that Tobirama is Minato's superior is certain fields of intelligence, but in tactics? I don't think he's shown to be better.


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## Turrin (Jul 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> She's been alive for 73 years. That doesn't translate to 73 years of combat experience.


It translates to at least 61 years of combat experience, unless you think Chiyo didn't graduate from the academy until she was older than Naruto (12 YO)



> That said, it doesn't matter anyway. Sometimes, younger people can be far wiser and more knowledgeable than their elders; it depends on their education and capacity to retain information. Chiyo shouldn't get a ten in knowledge just because she is old.


Chiyo has at least 61 years of battle experience, that spans at least 2 major shinobi wars. Yes that is more than enough to give her a 10 in knowledge. Not that there aren't other things going for her as well.



> This I simply don't understand. At all. Puppet Masters can be read through their fingers, thus becoming more predictable than most. It's one of their weaknesses, and that isn't my opinion either.


So someone trained by a legendary sannin in movement prediction can predict how the puppeteers will move their puppets to a certain extent. Really that's the argument here?

Let's just ignore all the unpredictability of the puppets traps, poisons, etc... And the fact that most people don't have Sakura's prediction capabilities. And the fact that Sakura was pulling off that prediction only when Sasori was controlling a single puppet, not 10 like Chiyo can.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 4, 2014)

I also think that Tobirama is above Minato but if we want to judge them properly - we shouldn't forget that Minato was emotionally compromised because of Obito. Minato did lead Kakashi+Gaara+Lee to assist Gai. And that plan of his was pretty good all things considered.


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## Ersa (Jul 4, 2014)

*Top Tier Tactics*
Itachi ~ Kakashi

*High Tier Tactics*
Tobirama
Minato
Hebi Sasuke
Chiyo

*Mid Tier Tactics*
Tsunade
Gaara
Onoki

*Low Tier Tactics*
Guy
Ei


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 4, 2014)

Bonly said:


> A better question would be why did you only ask me this when so far no one else in the thread put Minato at number one. But to answer your question it's because I don't see his tactical skills above Itachi+Kakashi(hence his ranking).



You're just so damn intelligent I wanted to ask you.


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## Rocky (Jul 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Chiyo has at least 61 years of battle experience, that spans at least 2 major shinobi wars. Yes that is more than enough to give her a 10 in knowledge. Not that there aren't other things going for her as well.



So Chiyo gets a perfect score in knowledge because she has a bunch of experience? 

The knowledge score should be determined based on what she actually learned in those 61 years, not just the fact that she's been fighting a while. 



> Let's just ignore all the unpredictability of the puppets traps, poisons, etc... And the fact that most people don't have Sakura's prediction capabilities. And the fact that Sakura was pulling off that prediction only when Sasori was controlling a single puppet, not 10 like Chiyo can.



Anyone can set traps, and poison isn't unpredictable, not any more than something like Hiraishin or Genjutsu.

Also, one does not need Sakura's "prediction capabilities" to conclude that Sasori moves his fingers before he attacks.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 4, 2014)

1 - Kakashi
2 - Tobirama
3 - Itachi
4 - Hebi  Sauce
5 - Chiyo
6 - Onoki
7 - Minato
8 - Gaara
9 - Guy
10 - Tsunade / A (who needs tactics when you can smashy smashy)

edit : I'll be damned, but I agree with Turrin. I think Chiyo deserves credit here. Not just because of XP but she pretty much orchestrated Sasori's defeat. Her simple tatics were the reason why She & Sakura survived for so long.


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## Dr. White (Jul 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I see Tobirama being called smarter than Hashirama, not as smart as Shikamaru...


Rocky, do you ever read literature? Like please tell me, because it seems you read alot of battle manga only, and can't take into account manga context, symbolism, etc.

Shikamaru is stating that unlike Hashirama, Naruto does not have a smart advisor by his side like Tobirama (giving him praise), hence why he must stay alive so he can symbolically adapt the role of Tobirama in the case of Naruto's Hokagecy. 





> These are observational skills, not strategy. These are more useful for arguments that support Tobirama being insightful, not tactical.


But that has to do with tactics, in which you consider what you know about both sides and try to make a plan to take advantage of their weakness and compensate for your own. The ability to see something and analyze it has to do with tactics. 

Kakuzu praised Shikamaru for being able to decipher how he got out of his shadow, and for seeing through his Domu: Doton. Both which you would pit as "observational" but is showing off Shikamaru's mind.

They go hand in hand, when Shikamaru goes into thinking mode he is using his knowledge, and his observations of the battle so far in order to come up with a plan.





> This is the same as your second point....


See above.
_____



> I agree that Tobirama is Minato's superior is certain fields of intelligence, but in tactics? I don't think he's shown to be better.


He orchestrated three direct attacks against Obito, one completely by himself. Added with his greater knowledge, greater intelligence, greater ingenuity, insight, and sensory skills this isn't even close rocky.

Hell we could even look at his actions as Hokage. Tobirama clearly had an agenda as Hokage, placing Uchiha as Police Force and later moving them outside the village, creating ANBU for dirty work, even as a kid he was creating psuedo ideas that were adultlike stating they should form a pact, make laws, and get over their past differences. Minato was like crushing on Kushina.


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## StickaStick (Jul 4, 2014)

Tobirama
Kakashi
Itachi
Chiyo
Minato
Onoki
Gaara
Hebi Sasuke
Gai
Tsunade
Ay

Not sure how I feel about ranking Chiyo this high considering that we don't know the value of what she's learned. She looked impressive against a fellow puppet user and and someone she knew well, but how does that translate to other situations? Tobirma, Kakashi, Itachi, and Minato have all demonstrated their tactical savvy on the highest level; and even Onoki and Gaara have shown glimpses of high-intelligence as well during the War-Arc. Chiyo is lacking in this regard. However I'll give her the benefit of the doubt here even tho I don't know why.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 4, 2014)

Tobirama
Kakashi
Itachi
Minato
Oonoki
Tsunade/gaara
Chiyo
Hebi sasuke
Gai
Ei

I do not see how Tobirama could not be on #1 on everyones list. While kakashi is arguably equal to tobirama in battle interlect he is superior to kakashi in other terms of intelligence. 

Chiyo I will disagree with. Granted she orchestrated sasoris defeat and has many years of experience that does not mean shes places high. First years does not automatically grant one more experience and second she is a puupet master like sasori.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 4, 2014)

Tobirama
Itachi
Kakashi
Gaara
Minato
Chiyo
Hebi Sasuke
Onoki
Tsunade
Gai
A


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## Ether (Jul 4, 2014)

1.) Tobirama
2.) Kakashi
3.) Itachi 
4.) Minato 
5.) Onoki
6.)  Gaara
7.) Hebi Sasuke
8.) Chiyo
9.) Tsunade 
10.) Gai
11.) Ay


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## Kaiser (Jul 4, 2014)

1.) Kakashi
2.) Minato
3.) Tobirama
4.) Itachi
5.) Onoki
6.) Gaara
7.) Hebi Sasuke
8.) Chiyo
9.) Tsunade 
10.) Gai
11.) Ay


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## StickaStick (Jul 4, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Tobirama
> Itachi
> Gaara
> Minato
> ...



Just curious, but how do you figure?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 4, 2014)

The Format said:


> Just curious, but how do you figure?



I actually just misplaced him, he's at least above Gaara in actuality. I'll fix that. It's too bad Naruto isn't on this list, he'd be fun to place


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 4, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Tobirama
> Kakashi
> Itachi
> Minato
> ...



I don't think Tobirama and Kakashi far apart in terms of tactics, they are pretty equal. The reason why I placed Kakashi as 1 in my list is because Kakashi is purely dependant on tactics. He is matched up against people stronger than him all the time so the only way he can survive those encounters is if he perfectly executes his tactics.
While Tobirama is also pretty tactical, his surival isn't completely dependant on his tactical prowess.

Kakashi is like a Shikamaru with decent combat prowess, who is always trying to make up for the difference between him and his opponent with proper use of tactics.


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## Turrin (Jul 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> So Chiyo gets a perfect score in knowledge because she has a bunch of experience?


Rocky consider what a "bunch of exp" really means. Chiyo having 61 years of battle exp, means she's had 61 years to accumulate knowledge on tons of fighting styles and techniques. Also because that 61 years spanned multiple wars, it means that Chiyo has accumulated knowledge of techniques from all over the globe. Chiyo has never been w/o knowledge in any scenario she's been in. She goes from showing knowledge on legendary Konohagakuru Shinobi and Clans, to showing knowledge on legendary Amegakuru Shinobi.



> The knowledge score should be determined based on what she actually learned in those 61 years, not just the fact that she's been fighting a while.


And she obviously learned a fuck ton. Only a simpleton would not have amassed a massive wealth of knowledge after 61 years on battlefields that span everyone of the 5 great nations. 



> Anyone can set traps


Anyone can set the level of traps a Puppeteer of Chiyo's magnitude can; please just stop



> and poison isn't unpredictable


The weapons themselves being poisoned is unpredictable. Being able to poison someone's food/water/etc... lends itself to unpredictability as well.



> not any more than something like Hiraishin or Genjutsu.



Hiraishin = Teleport to a Marker, it can be unpredictable if the markers are set in unexpected ways, but it's fairly straight forward

Genjutsu = look into Itachi's eyes your screwed. It can be unpredictable for someone who is unaware of Sharingan's Genjutsu capabilities, but again fairly straight forward.

It is not like the complex traps and things Chiyo has at her disposal. Basically nether really lends themselves to unpredictable strategies that well, it's just if you don't know about them or get caught in an unexpected method of delivery your screwed. 



> Also, one does not need Sakura's "prediction capabilities" to conclude that Sasori moves his fingers before he attacks.


You need Sakura's prediction capabilities to figure out the patterns of Sasori's finger movements. Knowing that Sasori is going to use an attack because he's moving his fingers, yet having no clue what that attack is, does no one any good at all.


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## Bonly (Jul 4, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Why is Minato > Tobirama?
> 
> Minato doesn't even have Hebi Sauce Feats. I'd put him next to Gaara for being smart people with good strategy. I'd put Hebi Sauce there too but the feat gap is big. Tobirama, Itachi, and Kakashi are on a tier of their own.



I find them to be around equal more or less though I tend to find Minato's slightly better. 



Kazekage94 said:


> You're just so damn intelligent I wanted to ask you.



Listen here woman I know you got a crush on me but I told you, I don't feel the same way. You need to move on and stop obsessing about me, it's time to move on.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 4, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think Tobirama and Kakashi far apart in terms of tactics, they are pretty equal. The reason why I placed Kakashi as 1 in my list is because Kakashi is purely dependant on tactics. He is matched up against people stronger than him all the time so the only way he can survive those encounters is if he perfectly executes his tactics.
> While Tobirama is also pretty tactical, his surival isn't completely dependant on his tactical prowess.
> 
> Kakashi is like a Shikamaru with decent combat prowess, who is always trying to make up for the difference between him and his opponent with proper use of tactics.



I think you misunderstood my point.

I agree with what you said in terms of tactics and battle intellect however tobirama is superior in jutsu creation and in overal knowledge of jutsus, history and etc which is obviously due to the era he grew up in.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 4, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I think you misunderstood my point.
> 
> I agree with what you said in terms of tactics and battle intellect however *tobirama is superior in jutsu creation and in overal knowledge of jutsus, history and etc* which is obviously due to the era he grew up in.



I agree but isn't the thread about tactical skills ?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 4, 2014)

Itachi/Kakashi/Tobirama are so close in this aspect that it's really hard to tell, but I gave Tobi the advantage for being Hashirama's brother and the creator of techniques that can be tactically useful in battle.

1. Tobirama
2. Itachi ~ Kakashi
3. Minato
-
-
-
4. Oonoki
5. Chiyo ~ Tsunade
6. Gaara ~ Hebi Sasuke
7. Ei ~ Gai


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 4, 2014)

> 1. Kakashi
> 2. Itachi
> 3. Tobirama



Kakashi, Itachi and Tobirama, despite being not being as old as some of the others, are definitely tactical geniuses. Tobirama created numerous techniques which had deception and trickery at the heart of their battle usage, never mind the fact that he used his brain to initially fool the Uchiha into distancing themselves from the village's affairs, as well as advise Hashirama on various political and economic affairs. Kakashi and Itachi's usage of techniques in battle are masterful and more technical than any other character on the list, so they deserve their top 2 places. Kakashi got the top spot due to his ability to deceive Itachi during their scuffle at the start of Part II, though the difference between them is marginal. 



> 4. Tsunade / Chiyo



Tsunade's smarts aren't limited to medicine, she was capable of putting together effective teams to find and destroy Akatsuki, and could form strategies to counter Madara's assaults (often on the fly) that none of her Kage peers were capable of doing. Let's also not forget the huge battle experience she has, allowing her to establish a series of rules that all medical ninja now abide by, as well as create an analytical taijutsu style based around prediction and attack patterns, that she drilled into Sakura. Chiyo, by merit of her huge battle experience, medical knowledge and wisdom, is about as good as Tsunade is in terms of forming battle strategies. 



> 5. Onoki



Onoki, who was repeatedly pulling out advanced battle plans in the heat of combat, only got placed below Tsunade and Chiyo because of his poor decision of not allowing Naruto and Killer Bee to enter the war initially. Also because he nearly attacked the Turtle Island with jinton, without considering that there were people and animals on it who could be injured.



> 6. Gaara



Gaara has a very strategic mind, but his lack of battle experience in comparison to the others disadvantages him and doesn't give him the same knowledge to deal with as wide a variety of opponents as the older veterans can. For instance, where Tsunade and Onoki knew how to handle many of Madara/Hashirama's jutsu, Gaara did not, and simply followed their orders. Though he did come up with an impressive way to counter the Nidaime Mizukage's explosions and also to combat Sasuke/Madara's Susano'o, I don't believe those things alone merit him enough tactical skill to be better than those I put above him.



> 7. Minato / Hebi Sasuke



Minato is young and doesn't possess _that_ much battle experience. Though he is definitely very cunning and tactical, it is seemingly only through his use of Hiraishin that he can form effective strategies. He also hasn't been up against nearly as many different _types_ of foes as those above him in the list, as from what we've seen the only types of opponents he has experience at fighting are ones who focus on speed (Obito, Ei, Juudara) making him generally less effective than the older veterans, and even Gaara who we know for a fact has fought against a wider variety of foes despite his young age. Admittedly Hebi Sasuke's placement was a bit of a shot in the dark, but from his feats I figured he was about as tactical as Minato, and not quite as impressive as Gaara.



> 8. Ei
> 9. Gai



The disparity between these two isn't very big when it comes to battle tactics, but as a Kage who forms teams and must make tactical decisions on a daily basis, and also because of his greater battle experience, I felt as though Ei tipped the scales slightly. Gai isn't _not_ tactical or anything, but he's pretty average in comparison to his peers and predecessors.​​


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 4, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I find them to be around equal more or less though I tend to find Minato's slightly better.
> 
> 
> 
> Listen here woman I know you got a crush on me but I told you, I don't feel the same way. You need to move on and stop obsessing about me, it's time to move on.



I don't have a crush on you and I am A DUDE!


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 4, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I don't have a crush on you and I am A DUDE!



Everyone has a crush on Bonly.


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## Jad (Jul 4, 2014)

Gai:

1. Knows to aim and disable an opponents weapon first.
2. Knew to use Soshuugas against Obito to keep range
3. Knew to smash a boulder in mid air so the debris would force Obito to phase in order for Gai slip passed his body rather be vulberable mid air
4. Deduced that he needed Afternoon tiger to steal the scroll from Kusame and capture him. Only person to capture an Akatsiku member.
5. Is a genuis in close quarters combat that quick tactics helped him from being touched by Obito.
6. Developed a system to avoid sharingan genjutsu
7. With Kakashi. Supposedly had counters to Nagatos technique.

I'm not saying Gai is to be at top of peeps lists . But Gaara told people to look at Madara's eyes. Oonoki forced Kages to sacrifice their life for no reason knowing they had neg chance. Ei nearly lost a leg due to anger. Tsunade provokes enemies but tactically great supporter. Mei....nothing.

I mean if this thread is all about tactics involving other people on the plan. Then it is sort of unfair to put Gai on this list. He isn't a kage to lead people and Team Gai had jack shyt to do with Shipppuuden.

Your list consists of Kages who have to lead people. Massive screentime characters - Itachi and Kakashi (self explanatory). And Chiyo who I believe was once a kage advisor. Then you randomly plop Gai....

In terms of on screen - Gai has shown lots of tactics. But if this thread is about overall and portrayl wise - offscreen - then why put Gai here? 

Tactics as in one on one combat?


----------



## Mercurial (Jul 4, 2014)

Kakashi
Tobirama
Minato

Itachi

Hebi Sasuke
Gaara
Onoki
Guy

Chiyo

Tsunade
Ei


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 4, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Everyone has a crush on Bonly.



I'm not everyone. His avatar is not even attractive.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Kakashi ~ Itachi ~> Tobirama ~> Minato > Hebi Sasuke ~> Gaara~Onoki~Chiyo > Tsunade > A ~ Gai



I like this.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 5, 2014)

Tactics and strategy aren't the same thing.

A strategy is a plan of action--how one intends to solve a problem. Tactics are the actual moves one makes toward fulfilling that plan. Just because someone is a good tactician doesn't necessarily mean they are a good strategist, and vice-versa; Naruto is a horrible strategist, but has proven himself a pretty respectable tactician when it counts.

This distinction is important to keep in mind. It's not strictly a measure of intelligence, either (although it is certainly an indication of certain kinds of intelligence).

I'd say:

1. Kakashi
2. Itachi/Tobirama/Minato
3. Hebi Sasuke/Gaara
4. Chiyo/Oonoki
5. Tsunade
6. A
7. Gai


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

Jad said:


> Gai:
> 
> 1. Knows to aim and disable an opponents weapon first.
> 2. Knew to use Soshuugas against Obito to keep range
> ...



Can you make a post without mentioning Gai? His jockstrap needs some air.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Tactics and strategy aren't the same thing.



I'm pretty sure they're synonymous. 

_*"an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end"*_

....An action carefully planned _(plan of action)_ to achieve a specific end _(solve a problem)._


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

Why Rocky never Answer back


----------



## ARGUS (Jul 5, 2014)

1. Itachi
2. Kakashi
3. Tobirama
4. Minato
5. Sasuke
6. Gaara
7. Tsunade
8. Onoki
9. Chiyo
10. A
11. Guy


----------



## Jad (Jul 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Can you make a post without mentioning Gai? His jockstrap needs some air.



I actually considered you a good buddy of mine on nf. Thought we got along. The hell?


----------



## Rocky (Jul 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Rocky, do you ever read literature? Like please tell me, because it seems you read alot of battle manga only, and can't take into account manga context, symbolism, etc.
> 
> Shikamaru is stating that unlike Hashirama, Naruto does not have a smart advisor by his side like Tobirama (giving him praise), hence why he must stay alive so he can symbolically adapt the role of Tobirama in the case of Naruto's Hokagecy.



I know what symbolism is. 

However, you're making a real good case that you don't know what logic or fact is. 

Symbolism demonstrates a likeness in concept. Shikamaru is going to become Naruto's smart adviser, just as Tobirama was Hashirama's in the past. That's it. That is the only fact to be concluded from this. 

Symbolism does not make Tobirama as smart as Shikamaru (or anywhere near him) any more than it makes Sakura equal to Naruto & Sasuke because they symbolically represent the Sannin, a group of equals. 



> The ability to see something and analyze it has to do with tactics.



If this is a thread discussing tactics and tactics only, then you are wrong.



> They go hand in hand, when Shikamaru goes into thinking mode he is using his knowledge, and his observations of the battle so far in order to come up with a plan.



Yes, but Shikamaru is intelligent in other areas besides battle tactics. 



> He orchestrated three direct attacks against Obito, one completely by himself.



And which one was greater than Minato orchestrating the removal of Madara's Gudōdama?



> Hell we could even look at his actions as Hokage. Tobirama clearly had an agenda as Hokage, placing Uchiha as Police Force and later moving them outside the village, creating ANBU for dirty work, even as a kid he was creating psuedo ideas that were adultlike stating they should form a pact, make laws, and get over their past differences.



So your point is that Tobirama was...mature? This is comparable to his ability to formulate a battle strategy?


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Jad said:


> Gai:
> 
> 1. Knows to aim and disable an opponents weapon first.
> 2. Knew to use Soshuugas against Obito to keep range
> ...



Don't question why I did that.


----------



## Jad (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Don't question why I did that.



I just did. What's with the defensive attitude....


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Jad said:


> I just did. What's with the defensive attitude....



I made the thread why question it? I put up randoms. Why do you think Shikamaru and Naruto weren't there then?


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm pretty sure they're synonymous.
> 
> _*"an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end"*_
> 
> ....An action carefully planned _(plan of action)_ to achieve a specific end _(solve a problem)._



They're not the same thing.

*Tactic*


*Spoiler*: __ 



1tac?tic
noun \ˈtak-tik\

: an action or method that is planned and used to achieve a particular goal

tactics : the activity or skill of organizing and moving soldiers and equipment in a military battle
Full Definition of TACTIC
1
:  a device for accomplishing an end
2
:  a method of employing forces in combat 




*Strategy*


*Spoiler*: __ 



strat?e?gy
noun \-jē\

: a careful plan or method for achieving a particular goal usually over a long period of time

: the skill of making or carrying out plans to achieve a goal

Full Definition of STRATEGY
1
a (1) :  the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war (2) :  the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions
b :  a variety of or instance of the use of strategy
2
a :  a careful plan or method :  a clever stratagem
b :  the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal
3
:  an adaptation or complex of adaptations (as of behavior, metabolism, or structure) that serves or appears to serve an important function in achieving evolutionary success <foraging strategies of insects>


----------



## Rain (Jul 5, 2014)

1. Itachi
2. Kakashi
3. Tobirama
4. Minato
5. Sasuke
6. Onoki
7. Guy
8. Gaara
9. Chiyo
10. Tsunade
11. Ei

top 5 are really really intelligent.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Rain said:


> 1. Itachi
> 2. Kakashi
> 3. Tobirama
> 4. Minato
> ...



Hebi Sasuke smarter than Gaara Ohnoki or Tsunade??? Seriously?


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jul 5, 2014)

Minato is more of an observervational genius rather than a tactical genius;

- deduced chidori
- deduced gudodama, range and effectiveness ( even created a strategy, but anyway)
- deduced kamui
- created rasengan after observing the tbb

In terms of  tactics, ill give the nod to kakashi and tobirama. Itachi a close second. The rest can suck it.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I don't have a crush on you and I am A DUDE!





Kazekage94 said:


> I'm not everyone. His avatar is not even attractive.







Jad said:


> I just did. What's with the defensive attitude....



Don't worry, it's that time of the month for her



Turrin said:


> You need Sakura's prediction capabilities to figure out the patterns of Sasori's finger movements. Knowing that Sasori is going to use an attack because he's moving his fingers, yet having no clue what that attack is, does no one any good at all.



No one doesn't. Shika was able to read Tayuya's finger movements and see how her summonings reacted after her finger movement. If one is observant enough then they could figure out Sasori's attack pattern just like she did.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Bonly you're what 40 years old yet you're acting like a child. Just stop. Honestly it's always me I know I am a big part in your life I've accepted it but give me a break.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 5, 2014)

Bonly said:


> No one doesn't. Shika was able to read Tayuya's finger movements and see how her summonings reacted after her finger movement. If one is observant enough then they could figure out Sasori's attack pattern just like she did.



That's Shikamaru, though. He's one of, if not the most analytical and intelligent character in the manga. Even in Part I his skill in that area is nothing to turn your nose up at.

As Turrin said, you need to have very good analytical abilities and prediction skill to be able to read finger patterns.

On that note, Puppeteers are no more predictable than any other type of shinobi. Sure, they have to move their arms and fingers before they make an attack, and that is their inherent weakness. However, all ninja have patterns in their attacks that can be read and picked up on, and likewise those small discrepancies can be _their_ weaknesses too. It takes just as much intelligence and analytical skill to work out what finger and arm movement initiates what puppet attack, as it does to read the direction of a sword user or a brawler's attacks and how to dodge or react accordingly.​​


----------



## Bonly (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Bonly you're what 40 years old yet you're acting like a child. Just stop. Honestly it's always me I know I am a big part in your life I've accepted it but give me a break.



Lol you're funny women but it's ok, I know it hurts to be tod I'm not into you but ya gotta it over. Stop replying to me only when everyone did the same thing as me would be a good first step for you, you can do it if you try. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> That's Shikamaru, though. He's one of, if not the most analytical and intelligent character in the manga. Even in Part I his skill in that area is nothing to turn your nose up at.



That's pretty neat but the point still stands.



> As Turrin said, you need to have very good analytical abilities and prediction skill to be able to read finger patterns.



I don't think "Sakura's prediction capabilities" would be considered very good and what not.


----------



## Rain (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Hebi Sasuke smarter than Gaara Ohnoki or Tsunade??? Seriously?



lolkages .


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

I'm just going to stop I guess you weren't as intelligent as I thought. I'm a guy and I hate you


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

Kaze (I assume you're a girl) you have no chance with Bonly. You must train at Ryuchidou before even attempting to court him. 

On Topic:
Hebi Sauce > The Kages bruh


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 5, 2014)

People putting anyone over Kakashi . Kakashi hold number 1 and always will.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kaze (I assume you're a girl) you have no chance with Bonly. You must train at Ryuchidou before even attempting to court him.
> 
> On Topic:
> Hebi Sauce > The Kages bruh



I'm a dude just because Zendaya is up there doesn't mean I'm a girl.
Hebi Sasuke can't beat Gaara or Ohnoki. Tsunade is debatable


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I'm a dude just because Zendaya is up there doesn't mean I'm a girl.



I heard you were a chick.

On Topic:
Don't sleep on Chiyo guys


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I heard you were a chick.
> 
> On Topic:
> Don't sleep on Chiyo guys



We hear a lot of things that doesn't mean theyare true. Want proof?


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> We hear a lot of things that doesn't mean theyare true. Want proof?



You could be lying

On Topic:
Kakashi has to be in your top 2.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> You could be lying
> 
> On Topic:
> Kakashi has to be in your top 2.



I said do you want proof? I'm not lying. If I was a girl I would say it.
Kakashi is in my top 2 but Hebi Sasuke is under Gaara


----------



## eyeknockout (Jul 5, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> 1. Itachi
> 2. Kakashi
> 3. Tobirama
> 4. Hebi Sasuke
> ...



^ this


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I said do you want proof? I'm not lying. If I was a girl I would say it.
> Kakashi is in my top 2 but Hebi Sasuke is under Gaara



You're not the first girl Bonly's rejected. It ain't dat serious bruh


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I said do you want proof? I'm not lying. If I was a girl I would say it.
> Kakashi is in my top 2 but Hebi Sasuke is under Gaara



That's exactly what a girl posing as a man would say. 

Hebi Sasuke has better feats, bruh bruh/


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jul 5, 2014)

Hiraishin in itself is a very unpredictable jutsu.

I don't know if that necessarily translates to having extensive "tactics" though. As in thinking ahead and having the opponent fall into what you had planned. 

Kakashi~Itachi~Shikamaru have the best tactics imo.  Naruto (when he actually acted like a ninja instead of the incredible hulk) would of also been part of this group imo. They've all meta-gamed out strategies multiple moves ahead in not just one but almost _all_ of their fights.


Tobirama has been said to be smart, but I don't see how being smart necessarily makes him a top tier strategist like the above. 

Although to be fair, I'm operating under the assumption that "tactics" means purposely and successfully fooling or outwitting the opponent. In a thought-out "I'll do this, he'll do that in response, and then I'll do this" manner.

If this is based off unpredictability then there's a difference imo.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> That's exactly what a girl posing as a man would say.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke has better feats, bruh bruh/



Pretty sure that is what a human posts or someone who has an ounce of intelligence bruh bruh. If you don't believe me then there isn't anymore I can do. For all I know you could be transgender.

Well Hebi Sasuke can't beat Ohnoki or Gaara at the end of the day. You can make a thread about it and see but alright.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> You're not the first girl Bonly's rejected. It ain't dat serious bruh



Hero derp your name is about him. You must be a fangirl bruh keep trying you'll get him.


----------



## Hazuki (Jul 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> In terms of tactics there are basically three categories that matter
> 
> Intelligence
> Knowledge
> ...



how tsunade one of the sannin who was taugh by young sandaime 50 years ago  , can have the same knowledge like minato or kid like itachi and kakashi ? 

She 's one of the sannin 

i think you overstimate the knowledge of itachi , minato and kakashi 

if ninja like onoki is around  10 , then tsunade is easely 10 too ( she is one of the most famous ninja of narutoverse since she is 15 years old )


then the other kakashi minato and itachi should have 6 or maybe 7

but tsunade is easely on the same knoledge as onoki  and all the younger are around 6


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2014)

Hazuki said:


> how tsunade one of the sannin who was taugh by young sandaime 50 years ago  , can have the same knowledge like minato or kid like itachi and kakashi ?
> 
> She 's one of the sannin
> 
> ...



Tsunade lived some of her life as an alcoholic gambler. And she wasn't portrayed as someone who had shit tons of knowledge. Why would anyone assume she possesses Onoki level knowledge ? 

And no, Itachi has informed us about shit no one knew about, kid was runing around exploring ancient ruins @ the age of 7. So nobody is overrating his knowledge or anything.

Kakashi should be less knowledgeable than Itachi, considering he didn't have access to exclusive things like history of Uchiha clan, MS or other general end game tier shit. Kakashi's knowledge doesn't go too deep like Oro, Itachi, Obito etc.


I am not sure about Minato.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Hebi Sasuke can't beat Gaara or Ohnoki. Tsunade is debatable



Hebi Sasuke would beat Oonoki with moderate to high difficulty; Oonoki is comparable to Deidara, but lacks his anti-Sharingan eye, suffers from unpredictable back problems, and Jinton is a much more linear, direct attack than exploding clay.

Hebi Sasuke curbstomps Gaara.



Kazekage94 said:


> Hebi Sasuke smarter than Gaara Ohnoki or Tsunade??? Seriously?



Not smarter.

But purely as a tactician, yes, Hebi Sasuke seemed to be a step up from Gaara or Oonoki. Tsunade is very intelligent, but not much of a tactician compared to those three.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Hebi Sasuke would beat Oonoki with moderate to high difficulty; Oonoki is comparable to Deidara, but lacks his anti-Sharingan eye, suffers from unpredictable back problems, and Jinton is a much more linear, direct attack than exploding clay.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke curbstomps Gaara.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure Gaara is above him.
Make a Gaara vs Hebi Sasuke thread see who wins. Honestly you are trolling. Ohnoki stomps Sasuke Jinton GG


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I'm pretty sure Gaara is above him.
> Make a Gaara vs Hebi Sasuke thread see who wins.



K.



> Honestly you are trolling.



I'm definitely not trolling.



> Ohnoki stomps Sasuke Jinton GG



Sasuke dodges because lolSharinganprecog.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Title says it all
> 
> Tsunade
> Minato
> ...



1- Minato.

His feast of figuring out the Kamui and how it works in much less time than Kakashi and the others who encountered this jutsu several times, and fought against it much longer than Minato, gives Minato a batter feat than Kakashi's in my opinion. 

He also analysed the Gedu-damas and figured out their weaknesses and make them completely useless when Madara tried to use them. In addition to his plan that involves Lee, Gaara, and Kakashi, even though he just learned about their abilities. Which is a better feat than Tobirama's seeing the Gedu-dama effected by the frog's attack, and he learned that after Naruto as well. 

In addition to his plan to help his child by sealing Kushina's, and his chakra inside of Naruto to help him whenever he needs to. 

analysed Kakashi's chider and figuring out its weakness by seeing it for the first time. .... 
creating the Rassengan based on the TBB, and the S/T barrier in addition to his long named jutsu

2- Kakashi

Mainly because he has more panel time I suppose.

3- Tobirama

He figured out the Gedu-dama's weakness after Naruto, and seeing the frog's attack. He invented a lot of jutsus based on the summoning jutsu
He put Hashirama's ideas to work, like the school and those stuff
surrounding trees

4- itachi (maybe)?

I don't remember much feats honestly. 
I'll give him credits for the Amatersu's trap
and the CT even though it was obvious.

Those 2 are the only feats I remember for him. 
I'm not talking about statements, but his actual feats. 

His other supposedly intelligent feats are rather stupid in my opinion like.
1- Let's make Sasuke a criminal and I'll just expect him to be a hero when he is an S-rank criminal. 
2- The way to set up the Iziname was not very cleaver either, imo. Especially despite he was going to fight a lone.



> Tsunade



I think she is very smart, and she is the one who started the medical system thing. In addition, she is the one who planned with doing the missions after Hiruzen's death, so no one will attack konoha. She also did a smart move (somehow) to weakened Jiraiya, and almost kill Oro, had it not been for Kabuto. 

I don't remember other feats if he has some others...  


> Gaara


I think Gaara is very smart and wise. However, I honestly do not remember strategies or long term planning 


> Guy


I don't see him that smart. 


> Ohnoki
> Chiyo



Chiyo does not have much feats or even hype, she has little time, so it's hard to rate her.

On the other hand we haven't seen Onoki doing a lot of planning either, but surely he is a wise and smart man. 


> Hebi Sasuke


I think he was intelligent, but according to the DB he has only 3.5 at that point. 
so i'll go with that. @>@



> Ay


Not so much either.
...etc

Edit:
Forgot I just did that before. @>@



> *
> In Term of Intelligent. *
> 
> Both of the Hokages are considered to be intelligent. First, Minato is said to be a genius that appears once in a while [1]. He was praised to be intelligent as well by Tsunade and Jiraiya[1], and Naruto [1].  According to the sannin as well, he is not the guy who will do something without a reason [1][2]. In addition to that, he also stated that he could have handled the Uchiha coup detat better/earlier [1].
> ...


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> K.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please MS Sasuke couldn't even dodge Jinton and he is better than Hebi Sasuke.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 5, 2014)

> Please MS Sasuke couldn't even dodge Jinton and he is better than Hebi Sasuke.



I'm getting confused. 
is this about who's stronger and who wins in a battle?


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Please MS Sasuke couldn't even dodge Jinton and he is better than Hebi Sasuke.



Taka Sasuke was exhausted and nearly passed-out before he even got to Oonoki.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I'm getting confused.
> is this about who's stronger and who wins in a battle?



Sorry me and this guy or girl are talking about something different. Aka Hebi Sasuke vs Ohnoki lol


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Taka Sasuke was exhausted and nearly passed-out before he even got to Oonoki.



He still cannot dodge jinton.. Sasuke got smacked by V2 Ay where was lolsharinganprecog then? Idk what is faster Jinton or V2 Ay take your pick.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 5, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Idk what is faster Jinton or V2 Ay take your pick.



It's a tough call.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 5, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> It's a tough call.



No I meant idk. Period mark there.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Jul 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Title says it all
> 
> Tsunade
> Gary Stu(_quahog pronunciation_)
> ...


Tobirama
Itachi
Minato
Sasuke
Gaara
Kakashi
Chiyo
Tsunade
Onoki
BlacKage
_Maito_Gai_


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 6, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Sorry me and *this guy or girl* are talking about something different. Aka Hebi Sasuke vs Ohnoki lol



Is he talking about me? 

Oh lawd.

I'm obviously a girl.



Kazekage94 said:


> He still cannot dodge jinton.. Sasuke got smacked by V2 Ay where was lolsharinganprecog then? Idk what is faster Jinton or V2 Ay take your pick.



A was the fastest man alive, before people started pulling Bijuu-powered speed out of their assholes left and right like it was in season.

This is the same guy who literally dodged Amaterasu as it appeared. Yes, he is faster than Jinton. What speed feats does Jinton even have?


----------



## Memory (Jul 6, 2014)

Itachi solos


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 6, 2014)

Onoki is a better tactician than Hebi Sasuke. Just look at Oonoki's overall skillset compared to hebi Sasuke.


----------



## trance (Jul 6, 2014)

1. Kakashi/Itachi
2. Tobirama
3. Minato
4. Gaara

_-Larger Gap-_

5. Onoki
6. Chiyo
7. Tsunade

_-Smaller Gap-_

8. Hebi Sasuke
9. Gai
10. Ei


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> 1. Kakashi/Itachi
> 2. Tobirama
> 3. Minato
> 4. Gaara
> ...



This is a perfect list. Except Hebi Sasuke should atleast be on Gaara's level. How do you figure Hebi Sasuke being that low? He shits on people like Gai, Ei, Chiyo, and Onooki via tactical feats.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Onoki is a better tactician than Hebi Sasuke. Just look at Oonoki's overall skillset compared to hebi Sasuke.



What the fuck does skillset have to do with tactical ability


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> What the fuck does skillset have to do with tactical ability



Because it depends on how one uses his skillset. And Oonokis is very tactical. He can fly, make others fly, can alter the weight of anything he touches, can obliterate anything, and has a powerful punch when amplified with his ninjutsu. I don't see how Hebi Sasuke with his snakes, chidori, Kirin, and other jutsu don't match up in any way with Oonoki's skillset.


----------



## trance (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> This is a perfect list. Except Hebi Sasuke should atleast be on Gaara's level. How do you figure Hebi Sasuke being that low? He shits on people like Gai, Ei, Chiyo, and Onooki via tactical feats.



Hmm, thinking back, Sauce proved able to outmatch a quick-thinker like Deidara as well formulate a strategy of subtlely forming Kirin against Itachi without the latter being able to realize what his intentions were. My bad.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Also doesn't help that I'm a bit stoned tired.


----------



## LeBoyka (Jul 6, 2014)

Some people still don't seem to realize that _*Strategy*_ and _*Tactics*_ are two different things. _Strategy_ is how you plan out a battle, _Tactics_ is how you bring that plan into fruition while also adapting to any unforeseen changes that your strategy did not plan for. 

Based on this, I'll just list my top three:

1.) Kakashi
- By a long shot. He has some of the _most impressive analytical feats in the manga_, which is critical in a tactical situation (being able to discern your enemy's actions, deduce why they did it, how they did it, and how to counter it, is very helpful in a tactical situation - in fact, this is what tactics deals with.). His jutsus give him some real versatility and flexibility, thus ensuring him more tactical options. He also has Summons which have proven helpful before, in both attacking and tracking. He also has access to Genjutsu (so he can be attacker, assassin, and support) - all these skills give him more options on how to follow through with a strategy even when things go off the rails - which is the essence of tactics. 

2.) Minato (Not counting Edo Minato)
- Minato is an analytical genius. The man deduced Rasengan from a Bijuu Bomb; he was able to run down the weakness of Chidori the moment he saw it (meaning he saw the tactical draw backs), and he deduced how Kamui worked and figured a counter for it in less than 4 minutes - and then proceeded to smack down Obito (That's a great example of tactical genius; got slapped with an unknown situation, and was able to adapt and overcome). Minato's skill-set grants him plenty of tactical options (more so than Tobirama), for several reasons. Minato is a sensory ninja with access to SM - this alone gives him a tactical edge over the majority of people on the list. He can Summon Toad Bosses, can seal people with Shadow Clone + RDS, can use Eight Trigrams Seal (Non-Combative; Support), Can use Contract Seal (Great against Edos), and his use of FTG grants him great mobility throughout the battlefield (which is very tactical). He can also use S/T Barrier to deflect and warp away long-distance attacks (also very tactical). Overall Minato has shown some pretty neat analytical feats and his skill-set grants him more versatility than Tobirama (Tobirama has recently showed slightly better anaylitcal feats, but his skill-set isn't as diverse as Minato's). However, Minato is clearly reliant on FTG as is Tobirama. This can lead him to become a bit predictable. 

3.) Itachi
- No argument needed here. But seriously, he is extremely analytical and because of his MS he is very versatile (Susanoo for defense and attack, Amaterasu to kill Summons, and Genjutsu). However, he is not as tactical as Kakashi and is not very "unpredictable" simply because we all know he relies on Sharingon techniques. This limits his tactical value.

Remember that tactics is not strategy. It is not the ability to plan, but to carry out a plan and adapt and overcome can unforeseen challenges to the plan (And to adapt and overcome, you need to be analytical; but you also need to have a skill-set that allows you to change and adapt to the flow of battle).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 6, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> Some people still don't seem to realize that _*Strategy*_ and _*Tactics*_ are two different things. _Strategy_ is how you plan out a battle, _Tactics_ is how you bring that plan into fruition while also adapting to any unforeseen changes that your strategy did not plan for.
> 
> Based on this, I'll just list my top three:
> 
> ...



Replace Minato with Tobirama and your list is a go.

Seriously, wtf is Minato doing up there ?


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2014)

I find it funny that people talk about exp every time it comes to Minato, and not the others
when Minato is one IF not the only one who has a direct statement about his exp.  



> p148
> 
> ↓His leadership ability cultivated through actual battles must have been utilized after he was installed as Hokage too.
> 
> ...



living longer does not necessarily (why do I need several times to spell this word every time?) mean you have a greater exp. Chyio, even though she is much older than the people here, but she stayed for God knows how long with her brother alone trying to catch a fish, during that time she did not experience much, if any at all. and it can also be several other things. 


I think making a judgement of how much exp the characters have based on the missions that have completed is much more accurate than saying this guy is older than this guy, so he must experienced more! 

what if this old guy is like the 40 year old genin? He probably barely went out of the village or have only D rank missions how would that make him more experienced than 16 year old Gaara for examples ?

I hope my point is clear. @>@

Edit:

another example would be Tsunade, even though she is like 53 or something, but she left everything behind after Dan and her brother got killed, and she apparently
did not fight after that based on her fight with Kabuto. So, if she spent 10-20 years on only gambling, and not fighting at all, what do these years worth exactly? 
yes, they may help her with her gambling, but how are they going to help her in actual fight?


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## IchLiebe (Jul 6, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Hmm, thinking back, Sauce proved able to outmatch a quick-thinker like Deidara as well formulate a strategy of subtlely forming Kirin against Itachi without the latter being able to realize what his intentions were. My bad.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Yea you must be high. He didn't subtly set Kirin up, he fucking talked about it for 3-4pages before launching it.


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## LeBoyka (Jul 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Replace Minato with Tobirama and your list is a go.
> 
> Seriously, wtf is Minato doing up there ?



Because he deserves to be up there. If Tobirama had some decent sealing techniques, and SM, I'd place him there instead. Tobirama is basically a more experienced Minato with Edo Tensi (But lacking ST Barrier, good sealing techniques, and SM); that is seriously the only other tactical technique he has outside of Water Jutsu (warped by S/T Barrier) and FTG. And while he's had strong analytical feats, he isn't much higher than Minato (I don't recall the second figuring out Kamui in minutes, getting a Rasengan from Bijuu Bomb or discovering how RDS works). Not to mention a few of his feats were made possible by assists from Minato. 

He could be third place, but Itachi takes that in my book. And Itachi isn't that far below from Minato (really close).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 6, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> Because he deserves to be up there. If Tobirama had some decent sealing techniques, and SM, I'd place him there instead. Tobirama is basically a more experienced Minato with Edo Tensi (But lacking ST Barrier, good sealing techniques, and SM); that is seriously the only other tactical technique he has outside of Water Jutsu (warped by S/T Barrier) and FTG. And while he's had strong analytical feats, he isn't much higher than Minato (I don't recall the second figuring out Kamui in minutes, getting a Rasengan from Bijuu Bomb or discovering how RDS works). Not to mention a few of his feats were made possible by assists from Minato.
> 
> He could be third place, but Itachi takes that in my book. And Itachi isn't that far below from Minato (really close).



Dude this isn't about arsenal, this is about being tactical in their fighting style.

Also Tobirama has shown greater intellect than Minato did. I mean, "figuring out" Kamui(there isn't much to figure out) and creating rasengan aren't exactly peak intelligence feats.

I think creating jutsu like kagebunshin and edo tensei from scratch are much more impressive than creating a ball of spinning chakra.


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2014)

Tobirama did not create a jutsu out of thin air. the ET, and the FTG both are based on the summoning jutsu.

and in actually fighting, Tobirama has only one feats, which is noticing the Sage Mode jutsu effect against the Gedu-damas. and even that, Minato's feats with Madara's Gedu-dama is in a completely different level than Tobirama's.

and the Rassengan is the peak of chakra control. It's the only jutsu from pure chakra that's A-level.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama did not create a jutsu out of thin air. the ET, and the FTG both are based on the summoning jutsu.
> 
> and in actually fighting, Tobirama has only one feats, which is noticing the Sage Mode jutsu effect against the Gedu-damas. and even that, Minato's feats with Madara's Gedu-dama is in completely different level that Tobirama's.
> 
> and the Rassengan is the peak of chakra control. It's the only jutsu from pure chakra that's A-level.



You would be talking about analyzing and observational genius bro. Minato is hands down the best at analyzing.


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## Cognitios (Jul 6, 2014)

> You would be talking about analyzing and observational genius bro. Minato is hands down the best at analyzing.


I'd care to disagree.
Itachi was able to figure out the only apparent weakness of CT in seconds and was able to bypass Kabuto's extensive measures to make himself immune to Itachi.


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## LeBoyka (Jul 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude this isn't about arsenal, this is about being tactical in their fighting style.
> 
> Also Tobirama has shown greater intellect than Minato did. I mean, "figuring out" Kamui(there isn't much to figure out) and creating rasengan aren't exactly peak intelligence feats.
> 
> I think creating jutsu like kagebunshin and edo tensei from scratch are much more impressive than creating a ball of spinning chakra.



1.) Tactics is pretty reliant on your ability to carry out said tactics. _If you know the Way, you must have a means to Go the Way. _It's pretty simple. Skill-set has plenty to do with Tactics, so does analytically skills. This is made clear in Sun Tzu's art of War in the Strategic Assessments chapter.

2.) _Figuring out Kamui took Kakashi forever to do_ - and he's on the top of most people's lists. The only people who had it figured out was Konan, because she was watching Obito for a long time; Minato observed Kamui, deduced it, and_ successfully counter it in less than 5 mins._ 

Not to mention Minato has shown tactical feats during the fight against Juubidara. 

Also, Edo Tensi is pretty much an advanced summoning technique. Rasengan is the _absolute most advanced chakra manipulation technique (Outside of Rasen Shuriken - which is based on Rasengan)_ - so it isn't as unimpressive as you think it is. Especially when you consider it pretty much has the potential to kill anyone, execpt for people with regen, Hashi cells, or Raikagenaught durability. Also, kagebunshin was not invented by Tobirama... Why you placed that there, idk. 

Also, Edo Tensi is also just an advanced summoning technique - it isn't _completely original_, in the sense that it has a base with the summoning technique; aka it is a very good innovation (Not to mention Tobirama did not master it).

But I know what the real problem is here; you just don't like Minato. (Although I confess, I am both a Kakashi and Minato fan; sorta explains 1st and 2nd place. But seriously, I gave you my judgement criteria and it fits the positioning I posted. If it were just about intelligence and analytics, I'd go with Kakashi and Iatchi - then Minato tied with Tobirama.).


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> You would be talking about analyzing and observational genius bro. Minato is hands down the best at analyzing.



it's not only about that, I think Minato is underrated in general here. For example.

1- Tobirama:

He saw a direct SM jutsu attacks the Gedu-damas and he noticed it AFTER Naruto did. 
and people all of sudden, OH MY GOD! Tobirama is such a genius he figured that out easily
when it just happened before his eyes. 

2- Itachi:

Naruto told him about the CT, and he saw the rocks gets absorbed since it's obviously a gravity based jutsu, and he only stated the obvious. Yet, oh my god, itachi you're such a genius! 

When it's really not that hard, even Kurama did that directly, and attacked that sphere from the start like in here
Then she lands her first hit on him

The first thing he did is attacking, and the jutsu got directly to the CT.

3- Minato:

figured out the distance, and the existence of the jutsu itself, and how to counter it.
but nay, it's not good enough. 
and it's not even as obvious as the other two.


******

Kakashi:

he fought Obito before when they tried to get to the uchiha battle, and saw the Kamui, then he saw it again in the Gokage Arc, and he even had the same eyes for 16 years, and was not able to figure that out except in the war after like 40 chapters with fighting against Obito. That's a pure genius. 

Itachi while being with obito for 10 years, and being his student did not even know obito's secret, and we have konan who was with him for years. 

Minato

finding that out immediately, and set up the plan to counter it and defeat obito.
nah, that's basic. 


Tobirama:

doing the plan  WITH MINATO to get obito, oh my god, he such a genius! 

Minato:

doing the plan to get Madara, and talking all of his teammate's abilities in consideration to create
an opining for Guy, and it worked perfectly.

Nah, not as good as Tobirama's plan that he actually did it with Minato. 

********
another category 

Tobirama:

created FTG and ET based on the summoning jutsu. 
THAT'S AMAZING!
(it's really amazing though. )

Minato:

Creating the Rassengan, his long named jutsu, and the S/T barrier.

No, it's not original it's based on already existed jutsus. 
(ignoring that it's the same with Tobirama)
not all that good!

itachi:
not creating any jutsu at all!
Wow, just Wow, how much of a genius you're itachi-sama? 
you're amazing!

and Minato is the worst. 

*****

itachi:

let's put an Amatersu in Sasuke's eyes to try to kill obito, and he will never know the truth. 

~> failed. 

Minato:

let's put both of our chakra (Minato and Kushina) inside of our child, not only we will help him against the enemy (Kurama) but we will tell him everything he needs to know 

~> worked perfectly

even Kurama said everything when as Minato wanted it.

but, nah, itachi's failure plan is still more impressive. U_U 

*******

and I honestly barely remember any strategy Tobirama came up with during a battle. 

Maybe I'm looking too much into it? 
though I think Minato's naming hobby did not make him any good in this regard.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 6, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I'd care to disagree.
> Itachi was able to figure out the only apparent weakness of CT in seconds and was able to bypass Kabuto's extensive measures to make himself immune to Itachi.



Minato;

- deduced kamui in seconds, where it took the alliance speaheaded by kakashi a lot longer
- deduced chidori's weaknesess by seeing it once
-  created rasengan, the highest form of shape manipulation after seeing tailed beast ball 
- completely decoded gudou-dama, including its range, weakness and effectiveness. He thrn went on to create a plan including all members, most of whom hes never met
- was able to create s/t barrier and expand alot on hiraishin after analysing tobiramas hiraishin

Minato is superior in that regard, and by a long way. And for itachi to execute that plan with kabuto, he had to get cut in half but edo tensei came to his aid, making it less impressive.


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Minato;
> 
> - deduced kamui in seconds, where it took the alliance speaheaded by kakashi a lot longer
> - deduced chidori's weaknesess by seeing it once
> ...



Forget his idea of merge the FTG seal on Kushina's seal so he can protect her at any time.
in addition to sealing his chakra, and Kushina's inside of Naruto. U_U

and dealing with the Kurama's problem so the village won't lose its only Bijuu.
Not to mention noticing Kushina's hair and saving her from Kumo's ninja all by himself. 

itachi like has one analysing feat.  
Not to mention he was supposedly spying on the Akatsuki for 10 years to begin with, and that's include Nagato.
For all we know, his feats may be the fruit of spying for 10 years on them and their abilities. U_U




> was able to bypass Kabuto's extensive measures to make himself immune to Itachi.



though I did not understand this part. O_O


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## Cognitios (Jul 6, 2014)

Minato;



> - deduced kamui in seconds, where it took the alliance speaheaded by kakashi a lot longer


Kakashi and Gai figured it out the second they arrived on the battlefield. What took longer was how to harm Obito when he was intagible.


> - deduced chidori's weaknesess by seeing it once


Which isn't nearly as impressive as figuring out CT's weakness while being caught in it.


> - created rasengan, the highest form of shape manipulation after seeing tailed beast ball


We have no idea how long it took him to develop the technique itself and Rasengan was brought above and beyond by Naruto in 3 days, creating Rasenshuriken in 3 days is a lot more impressive than creating Rasengan in 3 years.


> - completely decoded gudou-dama, including its range, weakness and effectiveness. He thrn went on to create a plan including all members, most of whom hes never met


Shikaku was more impressive on that part. Heck Part 1 Shikamaru is more impressive in that category.


> - was able to create s/t barrier and expand alot on hiraishin after analysing tobiramas hiraishin


We have no idea if Tobirama is unable to create an S/T Barrier or not, nor how much Minato improved it.


> Minato is superior in that regard, and by a long way. And for itachi to execute that plan with kabuto, he had to get cut in half but edo tensei came to his aid, making it less impressive.


Which he new he could afford to happen because he would regenerate from it. It's called taking advantage of what you have, something a good tactician does.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Forget his idea of merge the FTG seal on Kushina's seal so he can protect her at any time.
> in addition to sealing his chakra, and Kushina's inside of Naruto. U_U
> 
> and dealing with the Kurama's problem so the village won't lose its only Bijuu.
> ...



Oh yes. Im especially impressed with noticing kushinas hair, aged 10. Talk about observant ( and hes a total stud).


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 6, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Minato;
> 
> 
> Kakashi and Gai figured it out the second they arrived on the battlefield. What took longer was how to harm Obito when he was intagible.
> ...



The fact that Kakashi ran into Obito not once (forest looking for sasuke) but twice (sasuke's fight eith Danzo)  while Minato debunked it in seconds and overcame it despite it being his first time seeing the jutsu makes it more impressive.

Anyone with a brain would of figured that out. Its a giant black hole visibly sucking everything inside.  naruto and bee arent the sharpest tools in the shed, so of course he commanded the situation. Minatos gudoudama  feat is exponentially more impressive, due to decoding range, effectiveness, weakness and then creating a strategy including 5 people.

So i guess naruto is smarter than minato and kakashi, who also failed? Give me a break. The only reason achieved that is through kakashi's tutelage  and he used minatos blueprint. Now you're just downplaying minato's feat with no concrete point, just changing the subject. Regardless of its time, creating the highest form of chakraa manipulation with no blueprint is impressive. Naruto wouldnt
of been able to do that at all had it not been for his massive chakra reserves. That isnt an observation feat at all, why even bring that up?  

Did shikaku decode its range? Its  area of of effect? No. Again just changing the subject and bringing in other characters. Minatos plan also worked, considering gai landed his attack

He hasnt shown it, minato has. He doesnt have it, otherwise he would of hinted at it when juiboto was shooting all those bombs, just as minato used it when he arrived. You're now fabricating the manga. Minato can also teleport more people (said by tobirama), utilized markings on kunai and is able to summon himself through clones just as minato can summon anything with his chakra. Tobirama hasn't shown the same linkage  with ftg.

Though it reduces his accolades massively. It makes what he done look like a fluke. Had he been alive, he would of died.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 6, 2014)

Itachi was credited with planning out the entire Hebi Sasuke fight in advance, which blows nigh everything else out of the water in terms of tactical aptitute. He's just smarter.​


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Anyone with a brain could have figured out that they need to hit someone before they activate their intangibility technique as well.
> 
> Itachi, on the other hand, was credited with planning out the entire Hebi Sasuke fight in advance, which blows everything else out of the water in terms of tactical aptitute.​



Its a shame that isnt minatos only feat on terms of observing. While itachi is only that ct one, which is impressive but naruto made him look smarter. 

I already gave itachi the nod on tactics, im discussing analytical genius. Minato is better.


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## Ersa (Jul 6, 2014)

He figured out shared vision in a fraction of the time it took Jiraiya to do it. And he didn't have 40+ years of combat experience and two Ancient Sages helping him analyze.

I don't care how you spin it, that's fucking impressive.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 7, 2014)

Minato's good at understanding techniques, but the whole "Every technique has a weakness, and the weakness to your technique is... me." is an authorial nod to Itachi in itself.

Itachi's the guy that with the best bet of quickly thinking his way out of any situation, and any jutsu he comes up against.

And yeah, like the guy above me said, Itachi analyszed and countered shared vision so fluidly and concisely that it made those that had issues with it before look silly in hindsight.​


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 7, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> He figured out shared vision in a fraction of the time it took Jiraiya to do it. And he didn't have 40+ years of combat experience and two Ancient Sages helping him analyze.
> 
> I don't care how you spin it, that's fucking impressive.



He was also an akatsuki member for 10 years.


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## Ersa (Jul 7, 2014)

Both Nagato and Itachi admitted they didn't know a whole lot of each other.

Jiraiya probably had more contact with the Rinnegan to be honest considering he trained Nagato.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Both Nagato and Itachi admitted they didn't know a whole lot of each other.
> 
> Jiraiya probably had more contact with the Rinnegan to be honest considering he trained Nagato.



No, itachi stated he probably knows about the Akatsuki more than Nagato. Since he was spying
on them for 10 years, it's only reasonable to think his knowledge about those things came from the
information he collected all those years.

I'll try to find the page and post it here.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> No, itachi stated he probably knows about the Akatsuki more than Nagato. Since he was spying
> on them for 10 years, it's only reasonable to think his knowledge about those things came from the
> information he collected all those years.
> 
> I'll try to find the page and post it here.



^^^^^

This.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

Then she lands her first hit on him

Here, itachi's plans and knowledge about Nagato, Obito, and the others
are based on the information he collected for 10 years. He did not plan those things without
previous knowledge on them and their abilities.

Then she lands her first hit on him

Here, itachi also talking about Nagato's power. Would he say they can do anything, if he does not know
what the Rinnegan's jutsus are?


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Minato's good at understanding techniques, but the whole "Every technique has a weakness, and the weakness to your technique is... me." is an authorial nod to Itachi in itself.
> 
> Itachi's the guy that with the best bet of quickly thinking his way out of any situation, and any jutsu he comes up against.
> 
> And yeah, like the guy above me said, Itachi analyszed and countered shared vision so fluidly and concisely that it made those that had issues with it before look silly in hindsight.​



That's cool and all, but what has itachi analysed other than the CT exactly?
which he even had 10 years collocating information about their abilities?  

Can you remind me of other feats he has?


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

You know whats worse than not having absolute full knowledge on Akatsuki?
Not knowing your fighting your own student and thinking a 15 year old boy is a 100 year old man.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

I don't know why are you putting irrelevant stuff to this topic that has nothing to do with what I said.

but for your information, Minato directly stated Tobi couldn't be Madara because Madara died, and he was
right, and after that he was calling him with "the Masked man" every time after that. 

unlike itachi who believed that Obito is Madara even after death when he returned as an ET. 


you think Minato not knowing his student is worst?

Too bad, obito is itachi's teacher, did itachi know whose his teacher is? :rofl
did not he told Sasuke that his teacher is madara? :rofl 

and obito was itachi's teacher for those 10 years as well.
On the other hand, obito was Minato's student for like 2 years.

Yeah, itachi still worst. 
he goes even beyond that since he was spying on him all those years.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> You know whats worse than not having absolute full knowledge on Akatsuki?
> Not knowing your fighting your own student and thinking a 15 year old boy is a 100 year old man.



Any argument for Minato was destroyed here.

That was one of the most ridiculous turn of events in the manga.

As others of stated itachi is just above Minato here we'll in everything really other then speed but particularly anything with intelligence


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> 1.) Tactics is pretty reliant on your ability to carry out said tactics. _If you know the Way, you must have a means to Go the Way. _It's pretty simple. Skill-set has plenty to do with Tactics, so does analytically skills. This is made clear in Sun Tzu's art of War in the Strategic Assessments chapter.


Tactics can be employed with any kind of skillset. 

The thing is, the concept of Shinobi comes salong with tactics. Shinobi are all tactical to some extend, they have to be. With some obvious exceptions like raw power DBZ type of characters. Hashirama, Madara, most jins, etc.

But even Kaguya was trying to employ tactics through BZ's guidance, she seperated Sasuke and Naruto to deal with them easier, as simple as it is, it is an effective tactic.



> 2.) _Figuring out Kamui took Kakashi forever to do_ - and he's on the top of most people's lists. The only people who had it figured out was Konan, because she was watching Obito for a long time; Minato observed Kamui, deduced it, and_ successfully counter it in less than 5 mins._


Minato never "figured out" Kamui the way Kakashi did. Minato basically understood that Obito had to solidify while he was attacking and that was his only chance to attack( which btw Fuu and Torune were able to do on the fly, you don't have to be a genius to be able to do that) and he countered it by simply being faster than Obito.

Kakashi pretty much figured out the jutsu down to its final detail.

Also you are mainly refering to intelligence and observation skills here, in which case I agree that Kakashi is pretty mediocre opposing to his "most intelligent shinobi" hype. Not being able to figure out Kamui for so long and being able to do so simply by the stroke of luck is a huge downgrade to dude's intelligence. I mean, he had the same jutsu 



> Not to mention Minato has shown tactical feats during the fight against Juubidara.


Of course. I am not saying that Minato isn't tactical, but his tactical ability was overshadowed by Tobirama's in the long run.
Like I said all shinobi are tactical. Tactics can be as simple as Obito ripping his arm off and tossing it to Fuu to distract him so that he could warp him easier.



> Also, Edo Tensi is pretty much an advanced summoning technique.


It uses the mechanics of the summoning technique, it requires DNA research and shit. It by no means is an ordinary summoning technique. There is a reason why it could only be used by people who have the "scientific genius" hype. Orochimaru, Kabuto and Tobirama.




> Rasengan is the _absolute most advanced chakra manipulation technique (Outside of Rasen Shuriken - which is based on Rasengan)_ - so it isn't as unimpressive as you think it is.


I guess I couldn't express myself clearly.
I am not saying that the skill that is required to use rasengan isn't impressive. I am saying that inventing the jutsu isn't impressive. It is a pretty straight forward technique that doesn't have much creativity behind it. 
It is just like it sounds. Spnning ball of chakra.



> Especially when you consider it pretty much has the potential to kill anyone, execpt for people with regen, Hashi cells, or Raikagenaught durability. Also, kagebunshin was not invented by Tobirama... Why you placed that there, idk.


Tobirama said he invented Kagebunshin, or was that a mistranls ? 



> Also, Edo Tensi is also just an advanced summoning technique - it isn't _completely original_, in the sense that it has a base with the summoning technique; aka it is a very good innovation (Not to mention Tobirama did not master it).


Minato did not master rasengan either.
And Edo tensei is still more original than spinning ball of chakra.



> But I know what the real problem is here; you just don't like Minato. (Although I confess, I am both a Kakashi and Minato fan; sorta explains 1st and 2nd place. But seriously, I gave you my judgement criteria and it fits the positioning I posted. If it were just about intelligence and analytics, I'd go with Kakashi and Iatchi - then Minato tied with Tobirama.).



I am pretty neutral towards Minato. I used to like him more before the War arc I admit but by no means I hate him.

Itachi isn't the most tactical dude either, but he surely is top 3 among the people in the op's list.

All shinobi in OP's list are pretty good @ emplyoing tactics to a degree with the exceptions of A, Tsunade and Gai.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> You know whats worse than not having absolute full knowledge on Akatsuki?
> Not knowing your fighting your own student and thinking a 15 year old boy is a 100 year old man.



Lmfao, and I shall own you once more. 

- When Sasuke became fully evil, Karin, the *best sensor in the manga* could no longer recognise his chakra [1].

So using this as proof, we can conclude that Obito  clouded his chakra massively. Not to mention, half of his body was now covered in Hashirama's cells, so how could he possibly know it was Obito?

You know what else is funny?

Itachi generally thought it was Madara [X]

-While Minato dismissed the fact [X]


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> Lmfao, and I shall own you once more.


If you have to announce that you are "owning me" odds are you aren't.


> - When Sasuke became fully evil, Karin, the best sensor in the manga could no longer recognise his chakra [1].


Don't need to recognize chakra, it's basic voice recongition/body recognition/fighting recognition. Remember that whole two comrades fighting each other and mind meld shit that Sasuke and Naruto were able to do after 6 months? I would assume Minato has a better relationship with Obito over 2 years,


> So using this as proof, we can conclude that Obito becoming evil clouded his chakra massively. Not to mention, half of his body was now covered in Hashirama's cells, so how could he possibly know it was Obito?


How he fights, how he speaks, the fact that the majority of the forum called it after a first appearance and the only one's who didn't call it was because it was so obvious. 


> You know what else is funny?
> 
> Itachi generally thought it was Madara [X]
> 
> -While Minato dismissed the fact [X]


Minato thought he was long dead, which he wasn't, he was either dead for a year or so or he was still alive at that point. Itachi was closer saying he was immortal considering all the planning that went into affect and how Madara really did live for that long.


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## Bonly (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> it's basic voice recongition/body recognition/fighting recognition. Remember that whole two comrades fighting each other and mind meld shit that Sasuke and Naruto were able to do after 6 months? I would assume Minato has a better relationship with Obito over 2 years
> 
> How he fights, how he speaks, the fact that the majority of the forum called it after a first appearance and the only one's who didn't call it was because it was so obvious.




Obito's voice could have changed from when he last saw Obito so that's not really a good reason and that whole "fighting recognition" thing that Naruto and Sasuke did never seemed to happen to anyone in this manga but them(from what I remember that is) so it's a bit shaky to use that as a reason really. 

And how Obito fought clearly wasn't the same as when he was on team Minato since he didn't have Kamui let alone his Sharingan when Minato was around.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> If you have to announce that you are "owning me" odds are you aren't.



Back for more?



Cognitios said:


> Don't need to recognize chakra, it's basic voice recongition/body recognition/fighting recognition. Remember that whole two comrades fighting each other and mind meld shit that Sasuke and Naruto were able to do after 6 months? I would assume Minato has a better relationship with Obito over 2 years,



Read the scan again pal [1]. 

"when two first class ninjas meet". Obito was not even close to a first class ninja, nor was he remotely close to being minato's equal, so this point here is moot.

Also says when "their fists meet". Minato and Obito never exchanged fists, or even blows. Minato simply destroyed him in 2 minutes.



Cognitios said:


> How he fights, how he speaks, the fact that the majority of the forum called it after a first appearance and the only one's who didn't call it was because it was so obvious.,



How he fights? Sorry, I don't remember 12 year old Obito having the MS, Kamui or the Kyuubi. As far as the whole world was concerned, Obito was an innocent 12 year old who died for his country and comrades. And how would you know what his voice sounded like? He clearly hit puberty, hard. The fact that by age 15 he was equal in height to Minato is testament to that. The opinion of this site is completely irrelevant to the manga. 



Cognitios said:


> Minato thought he was long dead, which he wasn't, he was either dead for a year or so or he was still alive at that point. Itachi was closer saying he was immortal considering all the planning that went into affect and how Madara really did live for that long.



You're missing the point. 

> Itachi thought the masked man was Madara.
> Minato never. 
> Minato was correct. 

Changing the subject gets you know credibility.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 7, 2014)

Changing the voice is hilariously easy to anyone who mastered Henge. Any genin basically.
Anime specifically made Obito use Madara's voice btw. Before his mask was shattered. After that he got a different seiyu.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> Back for more?


Your taking this way too personally, it's a debate not a fight to the death. Your acting like your defending your honor or something. But in reality you just come off as just as bad as I do when I wank Itachi, you've become what you've hated the most.


> Read the scan again pal [1].
> 
> "when two first class ninjas meet". Obito was not even close to a first class ninja, nor was he remotely close to being minato's equal, so this point here is moot.
> 
> Also says when "their fists meet". Minato and Obito never exchanged fists, or even blows. Minato simply destroyed him in 2 minutes.


15 Obito + MS + Hashi Cells + Kurama Personal Summon isn't first class ninja
12 year old Sasuke + CS2 is
k
As for not being equal, thats a shady argument at best, a summon is part of your power, Kurama + Obito were the cause of Minato's death. 
Hell, Kurama itself is superior to Minato, it takes suicide in order for Minato to draw with 50% of it 


> How he fights? Sorry, I don't remember 12 year old Obito having the MS, Kamui or the Kyuubi. As far as the whole world was concerned, Obito was an innocent 12 year old who died for his country and comrades. And how would you know what his voice sounded like? He clearly hit puberty, hard. The fact that by age 15 he was equal in height to Minato is testament to that. The opinion of this site is completely irrelevant to the manga.


Even so it takes a special kind of stupid not to recognize your own student, or your just the worst teacher known to man, choose your pick. I know that the Itachi wank is hard, but at least it has opposition, Minato wank has nothing holding it back and that's why it's acceptable, even if it is as severe, if not more severe.


> You're missing the point.
> 
> > Itachi thought the masked man was Madara.
> > Minato never.
> ...


No, your missing the point. The reason that Minato thought that was because it was impossible do to him thinking Madara couldn't have survived that long. His process was flawed even if the conclusion was correct. If he had known Madara had survived the VotE battle he would have said it was Madara, the only reason he thought that it wasn't madara was because he thought he died at VotE. It's not changing the subject, it's called using reading comprehension


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

It's not just the voice changing. Hell when Obito was first introduced, when we only got a panel of his appearance half the forum knew it was Obito, the other half thought that it was so stupidly obvious that it was Obito that they convinced themselves it had to be someone else because of how stupidly obvious it was.


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## Sorin (Jul 7, 2014)

Kakashi
Minato/Tobirama/Itachi

The difference is quite small, but i give the nod to Kakashi. He has to be tactical otherwise he would just get stomped by the genetic freaks roaming the manga. 

Yo Cognitios, what about the 75 Km meteors and 100 Km Susano'o?


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## Alex Payne (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> It's not just the voice changing. Hell when Obito was first introduced, when we only got a panel of his appearance half the forum knew it was Obito, the other half thought that it was so stupidly obvious that it was Obito that they convinced themselves it had to be someone else because of how stupidly obvious it was.



Yeah and when we've learned that he was behind Kyubi attack we didn't believe that he was Obito. Because it didn't make sense at the time.


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## Bonly (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Even so it takes a special kind of stupid not to recognize your own student, or your just the worst teacher known to man, choose your pick. I know that the Itachi wank is hard, but at least it has opposition, Minato wank has nothing holding it back and that's why it's acceptable, even if it is as severe, if not more severe.



The hell dude? How was Minato suppose to know it was Obito?

- Obito had short hair when he last saw him. When Obito attacked he had long hair.

- Obito could easily change his voice so that Minato wouldn't be able to tell it was Obito

- Obito's fighting style when fighting Minato was nowhere near the same as when he was a member of team Minato before he got his Sharingan.

-Obito was wearing a mask which means Minato couldn't see his face.

How the hell was Minato suppose to magically know that the masked man was Obito who Minato was told was dead? Come on bro, you're stretching like you're Mr Fantastic or Monkey D. Luffy here.



Cognitios said:


> It's not just the voice changing. Hell when Obito was first introduced, when we only got a panel of his appearance half the forum knew it was Obito, the other half thought that it was so stupidly obvious that it was Obito that they convinced themselves it had to be someone else because of how stupidly obvious it was.



Was you even on these forums to know how it went down back then? Seems kinda like an exaggeration to me based from what I've seen on other forums which wasn't this cut and dry like you say from the first time we saw a panel of Obito aka Tobi at the end of the homecoming arc.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

My point isn't that Minato should have figured out it was Obito, the point I'm trying to make is that how are people supposed to expect Itachi to figure it out if Minato didn't.
Minato's Connections to Obito/Tobi
> Obito's Teacher
> Was around Obito for 2 years constantly
> Fought against Tobi
Itachi's connections to Obito/Tobi
> Spied on a secret organization which the apparent leader didn't know who the leader was

I'm not arguing that Minato should have known, I'm arguing his claim to figuring it out was more so than Itachi's.


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## Ghost (Jul 7, 2014)

Kakashi/Itachi
Tobirama

all that matters.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> My point isn't that Minato should have figured out it was Obito, the point I'm trying to make is that how are people supposed to expect Itachi to figure it out if Minato didn't.
> Minato's Connections to Obito/Tobi
> > Obito's Teacher
> > Was around Obito for 2 years constantly
> ...



itachi was around with Obito more than Minato did by 8 years.  
and itachi was obito's student as well for all those years...


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## Legendary Itachi (Jul 7, 2014)

The problem is those who gives Minato so much credit by that "Tobi=/=Madara" are always the ones screaming his amazing sensing power. 

Can't sense his student's chakra, what a quality sensor. Or he's just too stupid to suddenly forget such detail. :ignoramus

And how is that supposed to be amazing, when even Yahiko questions Tobi's identity at start. Not like 99% of Narutoverse will believe Tobi = Madara w/o more interactions.


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## Bonly (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> My point isn't that Minato should have figured out it was Obito, the point I'm trying to make is that *how are people supposed to expect Itachi to figure it out if Minato didn't.*



Who is expecting that of Itachi, can ya show me the post of these people(which is plural as in more then one)? From what I seen someone just listed a fact, Itachi thought Obito was Madara, Minato didn't. I don't think/see people expecting Itachi to figure out it was really Obito more so then them thinking that he should've thought the masked man wasn't Madara or something like that. Unless I missed something in these post that is.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> The problem is those who gives Minato so much credit by that "Tobi=/=Madara" are always the ones screaming his amazing sensing power.
> 
> Can't sense his student's chakra, what a quality sensor. Or he's just too stupid to suddenly forget such detail. :ignoramus
> 
> And how is that supposed to be amazing, when even Yahiko questions Tobi's identity at start.



change of chakra and Hashirama's cells. :ignoramus
just like how Karin did not recognize Kabuto. Simple. :ignoramus



> And how is that supposed to be amazing, when even Yahiko questions Tobi's identity at start.



Yahiko did, itachi did not.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> itachi was around with Obito more than Minato did by 8 years.
> and itachi was obito's student as well for all those years...



Obito "died" before Itachi became a shinobi.

There is no way in hell Itachi could have guessed who Obito was, when people like Minato and Kakashi weren't able to.

For Itachi to be able to deduce he wasn't Madara, he'd have to know Madara in the first place which was impossible to begin with. 

Obito also wasn't Itachi's teacher.



Bonly said:


> Who is expecting that of Itachi, can ya show me the post of these people(which is plural as in more then one)? From what I seen someone just listed a fact, Itachi thought Obito was Madara, Minato didn't. I don't think/see people expecting Itachi to figure out it was really Obito more so then them thinking that he should've thought the masked man wasn't Madara or something like that. Unless I missed something in these post that is.



We have no idea what made Itachi believe Obito was Madara, but I am guessing some revelations about history of Uchiha clan might have done it.

Obito never claimed that he was Madara infront of Minato. Minato came to the conclusion himself and dismissed it simply because he thought Madara was dead, just like everyone else.

I am pretty sure Itachi is intelligent enough to know that Madara was "dead" too, just like everyone else.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

I don't expect him to know, what I'm saying itachi's fans (or some) say that because Minato is obito's teacher
and taught him for a year or 2, then he should have known who he is. And I'm just telling them, it's not the case
and if it were, then still, itachi's case is worst....

as for





> Obito also wasn't Itachi's teacher.


Well, that's what itachi said here U_U


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't expect him to know, what I'm saying itachi's fans (or some) say that because Minato is obito's teacher
> and taught him for a year or 2, then he should have known who he is. And I'm just telling them, it's not the case
> and if it were, then still, itachi's case is worst....



What kind of retarded logic is that ? Itachi didn't know Madara or Obito personally, it is doubtful that he ever heard of Obito. How would he deduce that he was Obito behind the mask ? 

The argument about Minato is that, Minato knew who Obito was prior to Obito's new persona. 

You'd have a valid argument if Itachi personally knew Obito before he approached him as the "masked man."



> as for
> Well, that's what itachi said here U_U



He said "mentor." Its not the same as teacher. Also we have no idea how long they hang out together, or whether Itachi was telling the truth or not. 

Also, like I mentioned above, even if Itachi and Obito spent 100 years together, there was no way Itachi could have figured out he was Obito because Itachi didn't even know who the fuck Obito was. Minato knew, very closely too.

Itachi's reaction would be no different than Naruto's when Obito's mask fell off.


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## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Who is expecting that of Itachi, can ya show me the post of these people(which is plural as in more then one)? From what I seen someone just listed a fact, Itachi thought Obito was Madara, Minato didn't. I don't think/see people expecting Itachi to figure out it was really Obito more so then them thinking that he should've thought the masked man wasn't Madara or something like that. Unless I missed something in these post that is.



Itachi had reason to believe Madara could revive himself or had some longevity jutsu (he knew a shit ton about Uchiha secret info), he even stated that he (referring to Tobi) was a shell of his former self, which was accurate as hell given Obito was literally a shell of his old self mentally and physically.

Minato stated Madara was the only person he knew that could control Kyuubi was Madara, the only reason he dismissed the latter was because Madara had died (and Minato has no reason to think Madara would be able to come back and orchestrate a terrorist organization)

Not only this but Minato knew Obito. Itachi never did. He only met Obito who literally considered himself a concept which he named Madara. Minato knew both sides of the mask and very well.


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## Bonly (Jul 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am pretty sure Itachi is intelligent enough to know that Madara was "dead" too, just like everyone else.



Yet the manga has showed him thinking Obito was Madara all that time.



Dr. White said:


> Snip



That's pretty neat


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## StickaStick (Jul 7, 2014)

lol at this pissing contest. Itachi and Minato are both pretty fucking smart dudes, on numerous levels. It's literally gotten to the point where we're arguing who the had greater inclination that Tobi was or wasn't Mads. Does anyone really think Kishi wants this taken into consideration when judging the merit of each's astuteness?


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## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

Kishi portrayed Itachi as much more insightful and quickthinking than Minato.

The fact he could hold of Hebi Sasuke and Sage Kabuto despite not wanting to kill them (the latter of which he wouldn't even cast jutsu against) goes to show how on the fly he is.

Kishi had him counter Nagato's animal path and solo his emaciated auto pilot form, counter Double Vision, CT, then go onto counter White Rage, and ultimately one up Kabuto via tactics, despite the latter literally using all of his movest offensively against the duo.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> lol at this pissing contest. Itachi and Minato are both pretty fucking smart dudes, on numerous levels. It's literally gotten to the point where we're arguing who the had greater inclination that Tobi was or wasn't Mads. Does anyone really think Kishi wants this taken into consideration when judging the merit of each's astuteness?


From a literary standpoint? Yes, I can imagine Kishi allowing Minato to realize that his student was the one who killed him, realizing just before his death. I can imagine that happening very easily and it would be a nice foreshadow for the reveal (not that we'd need it).


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## StickaStick (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> From a literary standpoint? Yes, I can imagine Kishi allowing Minato to realize that his student was the one who killed him, realizing just before his death. I can imagine that happening very easily and it would be a nice foreshadow for the reveal (not that we'd need it).



Except that's not how Kishi wrote it. Btw, the same shit could be applied to Itachi's situation. But again, that's not how Kishi wrote it. To think Kishi wants us to think that Minato > or < Itachi in intelligence because of some bullshit like that is hilarious.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

The Format said:


> lol at this pissing contest. Itachi and Minato are both pretty fucking smart dudes, on numerous levels. It's literally gotten to the point where we're arguing who the had greater inclination that Tobi was or wasn't Mads. Does anyone really think Kishi wants this taken into consideration when judging the merit of each's astuteness?



It's dragged on to who knew who's Tobi is and who is not
because when you ask itachi's fans to give you any other feats that the CT, they have none.
and we even know that he was collocating the info for 10 years. 

and kishi even portrayed Minato to be much smarter than itachi, especially in this one


Itachi had to die and get revived to finally understand the basic things


not to mention Minato's plans were much more successful than itachi. 
look what have itachi done to Sasuke, and how his planed helped (the Amaterasu)
and Minato's plan for Naruto and his plan worked (their chakra)

the different is painfully obvious. He even called Minato a genius in a generation
when itachi had never been regarded that much. U_U


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Yet the manga has showed him thinking Obito was Madara all that time.


I was being sarcastic. Common folk knew Madara was dead. Minato's deduction is nothing special.
Which was wrong anyways.


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## RedChidori (Jul 7, 2014)

1. Itachi
2. Kakashi
3. Sasuke
4. Shikamaru
5. Gaara
6. Tsunade
7. Neji
8. Jiraiya
9. Deidara
10. Kakuzu

*Honorable Mentions*
Hashirama
Tobirama
Madara


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