# Persona 1 vs. Persona 3



## Dark Evangel (Oct 16, 2010)

All Persona users from Persona 1 against all Persona users from Persona 3.

How does this go?

BONUS: Which game do you think has the better soundtracks?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 16, 2010)

Link removed
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And for bonus

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfjLIrOLMJs&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n3Ao34NQ2E&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## zenieth (Oct 16, 2010)

This is so hilarious how badly p3 gets beaten.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 16, 2010)

zenieth said:


> This is so hilarious how badly p3 gets beaten.



Make it even worse, the P3 team need to pull the trigger to summon. Within that time frame, the P1 team summons immediately. The only threat on the P3 team is Aigis (unless Metis is in it too). Everyone else gets bitch slapped.


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## skiboydoggy (Oct 17, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Make it even worse, the P3 team need to pull the trigger to summon. Within that time frame, the P1 team summons immediately. The only threat on the P3 team is Aigis (unless Metis is in it too). Everyone else gets bitch slapped.



The Invoker is only a placebo. It's not strictly necessary.

Plus, P3 MC has a The Universe Persona and it's implied that his true Persona is Messiah, the J-man himself. That's pretty damn awesome.


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## zenieth (Oct 17, 2010)

Cool as that shit is, don't really matter when he's up against what is technically 7 of him.

edit: Seven of him that has taken on bigger threats than he ever has.


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## skiboydoggy (Oct 17, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Cool as that shit is, don't really matter when he's up against what is technically 7 of him.
> 
> edit: Seven of him that has taken on bigger threats than he ever has.


Well, P3's Nyx isn't really the ancient Greek _thing_ Nyx, more of a name attached to a phenomena brought about by humanity's nihilism itself, so it's pretty obvious why no human could beat it alone, so that's not strictly true.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 17, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> The Invoker is only a placebo. It's not strictly necessary.
> 
> Plus, P3 MC has a The Universe Persona and it's implied that his true Persona is Messiah, the J-man himself. That's pretty damn awesome.



The Invoker was the only way to summon them, they lack the skill to do it at will except for Aigis and Metis, and the Universe is pretty much a one shot deal.



> Well, P3's Nyx isn't really the ancient Greek thing Nyx, more of a name attached to a phenomena brought about by humanity's nihilism itself, so it's pretty obvious why no human could beat it alone, so that's not strictly true.



Persona 1 had the ACTUAL Nyx, the Night Queen, as the final boss. And both the SEBEC route and the Snow Queen Quest are canon. The party proceeded to knock the shit out of her.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 18, 2010)

At least it's not P2's cast. That'd be such hilarious overkill it'd belong in a category all its own.


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## zenieth (Oct 18, 2010)

I can actually visualize Jun kicking people's face in. He should not have that ability.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 18, 2010)

zenieth said:


> I can actually visualize Jun kicking people's face in. He should not have that ability.



Machine Gun guitar cases


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

there's actually no need for the entire p3 cast to join in. P3 MC alone should be stronger than the whole cast of p1.

P1: the only strong point of p1 have is, there all wild cards and the guns. but they can't do     fusion spells.
P3: MC's the only 1 that has a wild, but he can do fusion spells, he's also the only known wild card user that can do F.spells alone, and the only person able to use universe arcana which is said to be the strongest arcana. (unlike in the tarot cards, in this game universe is different from the world as universe is superior, which should be the same from the thoth and Rider-Waite) Great Seal is also not the only ability universe have, he wasn't able to utilize the universe power because of the damage from avatar nyx.
he is also the only person capable of wielding different weapons.

and MC Armageddon 9999 target all>P1 party

for p1's guns, in p3 takaya's gun and jin's GRENADES didn't that much damage to the party.

and which is faster, concentrating real hard for the persona's to appear or
grabbing the gun the and pulling the trigger? I'd go with the latter.

the nyx in p3 is different from the myth's and p1 nyx.
the nyx in p3 can be liken to an active nuclear bomb that's only waiting for the switch.

edit:
also persona 1 and 2 main character are (can be)gay, in the game


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

p1 fought an avatar of Nyarlathotep


/thread.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 21, 2010)

zenieth said:


> p1 fought an avatar of Nyarlathotep
> 
> 
> /thread.



We need a Joker Jun respect thread. 

Soulfucking, clones, teleportation?


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

What does p2 mc being gay/straight/bi(this probably canon) have to do with anything? and no p1's mc doesn't have the gay option.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

the fact that there all wild cards granted by philemon helps.

while there only 1 for p3.
and nyx is death personified from the all humans, so you kill death what happens? either nyx comes back, or the whole world gets screwed up(with no death and all) or you can't just kill it)

as for nyar. he is a being like demon god. so

as for p1, i recall that there is a gay option in p1.

edit:
ahh it was only p2 my bad


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## Foxve (Oct 21, 2010)

P4 owns them all


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

Nyarlathotep is the big bad for the persona side games. He is literally the biggest shit to walk around the game. Saying Nyx is anything to him is like saying an ant is something to a world champion Boxer.

As for the wild card just because he got one doesn't make it extra super special. Philemon stated he couldn't interact with the universe or Nyarlathotep would be back, that meant no more throwing wild cards out like candy.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

Foxve said:


> P4 owns them all


p4 is by far the weakest team in the persona series

comparing nyar to nyx is like comparing hitler to a nuclear bomb.
nyx has no animosity nyx has no goals. nyx in p3 which is a whole different being in the nyx in p1, is just dormant. when erebus reaches her, there will be no obviously anyone can do. human's go extinct.

edit:
and also we are comparing the teams of persona 1 and persona 3 not there achievements. which p3 MC obviously takes the cake.


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

You're actually doing it, you're actually saying Nyx is stronger than nyarlathotep in persona


lanetaryryoma


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

strong isn't really the word.
nyx is a bomb
nyar is a villain

a bomb can't do anything by itself
its switch is the humanty's will itself

in persona series
humanities will trumps nyar.

edit:
also if we go by the myths
nyar was only created recently by the ingenious H.P. Lovecraft
while Nyx came from the greek myth.


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

that's why he won the first time around


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 21, 2010)

BossKado said:


> p4 is by far the weakest team in the persona series
> 
> comparing nyar to nyx is like comparing hitler to a nuclear bomb.
> nyx has no animosity nyx has no goals. nyx in p3 which is a whole different being in the nyx in p3, is just dormant. when erebus reaches her, there will be no obviously anyone can do. human's go extinct.
> ...



P3 MC died trying to seal a lifewiper. P1 team destroyed their enemies, P2 team defeated a being who can reset reality on a Universal scale who created a second Universe, second team kicked his ass for good.


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

Like I said an ant to a world class champion Boxer,


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 21, 2010)

BossKado said:


> and which is faster, concentrating real hard for the persona's to appear or
> grabbing the gun the and pulling the trigger? I'd go with the latter.



It takes a split second for the P1 team to summon while the P3 team takes a few seconds to place their Evokers to their head and pull the trigger. Make it worse since Personas in the first 2 games are more sentient and can come out freely like Stands from JJBA while P3 doesn't really have that luxury. 

Like I said, the only people who can summon at will from P3 is either Aigis or Metis. The rest would be worlds slower.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

zenieth said:


> that's why he won the first time around


sorry what?

@basch71
it has something to do with all of them getting additional powers from phiL

while poor p3 main all alone has to things by himself, powered only by a contract.

so nyar is strong, your point? he has a will of his own, with all those powers it still took him along time to follow up his plan. while just activating nyx humanities goes poof.

I just said right nyx is a bomb no will, no thought. and I'm not saying nyx is stronger than nyar.
its like this Bomb vs Person. now what will the bomb do, it can't think, it can't move on its own.

and also we are talking about strength of the teams right. why are we talking about achievements again?


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

basch71 said:


> It takes a split second for the P1 team to summon while the P3 team takes a few seconds to place their Evokers to their head and pull the trigger. Make it worse since Personas in the first 2 games are more sentient and can come out freely like Stands from JJBA while P3 doesn't really have that luxury.
> 
> Like I said, the only people who can summon at will from P3 is either Aigis or Metis. The rest would be worlds slower.



really? in the game you can see them taking there time summoning persona, thats not really a split second.
aiming at your temple and pulling the trigger can take a split second.

you obviously have not played p3 or *have no idea what was going on there*
aegis and metis have evokers inside them. so not its not at will, it like koro-chans evoker only inside.


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

because their achievements note their powers.

A group of people that took down a monster the size of a mountain will naturally be better than one guy who took down one the size of a building.

Nyarlathotep didn't fuck the universe over in a second because he and Philemon had a bet to follow through on. Soon as he won the bet, universe became his bitch.


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## skiboydoggy (Oct 21, 2010)

Did nobody play P3 or something? The damage caused by Nyx would be nothing compared to be Nyarlahotep, but the Nyx in P3 is not the Greek Nyx but instead an aggregation of humanity's nihilism. The team did beat the shit out of Nyx Avatar, but it doesn't matter because the only thing that can permanently destroy it is humanity's combined will itself. That's why the main character Great Sealed it. You can't just take a sword and stab nihilism to death, but you can seal its effects and hope Elizabeth finds a way to get you out of that seal.


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

I know that Skiboy.

Also P3 and p4 mc had it better than the original cast. They were literally tailor made to defeat Izanami and Nyx.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

okay then lets say p1 crew was in the plot of p3 and they have to face nyx.what do they do?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 21, 2010)

BossKado said:


> really? in the game you can see them taking there time summoning persona, thats not really a split second.
> aiming at your temple and pulling the trigger can take a split second.
> 
> *you obviously have not played p3 or have no idea what was going on there
> aegis and metis have evokers inside them. so not its not at will, it like koro-chans evoker only inside.*



If I have never played P3 then why do I know about Aigis or Metis or the fact that I have both the original P3 and the FES version?


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

exactly what I mean, p3 mc is living deus ex machina.

edit: They could of probably still beaten nyx right back into conceptuality


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

basch71 said:


> If I have never played P3 then why do I know about Aigis or Metis or the fact that I have both the original P3 and the FES version?


wiki?
if you do have. then you should know that aegis and metis don't summon by will but by trigger. so if you played it *then its the latter*.

edit:
they are robots so you shouldn't be surprised that they have extra function inside the body.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

the great seal wasn't actually an ass pull
Igor at the start told him that his power will increase through social links, and while death is sealed inside him it. amplied his powers thats why he was able pull universe arcana.
and the reason he was resilient to nyx presence, is because death was sealed inside him for 10 years.
its all connected.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

*insert random comment about Aigis' cuteness followed by a hurr smiley*


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 21, 2010)

BossKado said:


> wiki?



Questioning whether or not *I* ever played Persona is like asking if the sky is blue. 


*Spoiler*: __


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## Lucifeller (Oct 21, 2010)

BossKado said:


> okay then lets say p1 crew was in the plot of p3 and they have to face nyx.what do they do?



The P1 party has a reality warper in their numbers. That's all I'll say.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> The P1 party has a reality warper in their numbers. That's all I'll say.


maki's "ideal world" is just a state of her mentality and is not a reality warping ability.
that only happened because of the DVA system and takahisa. 
so there will be no reality warping incident here.


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## skiboydoggy (Oct 21, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> The P1 party has a reality warper in their numbers. That's all I'll say.


You honestly think a guy with Jesus as his Persona can't reality warp?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

They're not the actual beings, they are just part of their psyches


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## Lucifeller (Oct 21, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> You honestly think a guy with Jesus as his Persona can't reality warp?



Then why didn't he just freaking DO IT? It'd have solved so very many problems.

So either he just plain doesn't know HOW (in which case why should we artificially give him knowledge of how to do it if he lacks it in the first place?), or he can't.

Yes, I'm more than a bit pissed that someone who can supposedly summon a guy who does MIRACLES as his persona can't do any. It's stupid and contrived, but it apparently is how Persona rolls. Either that, or Personae, unlike demons from the main SMT series, aren't the real thing which is a lot more likely, since Igor specifically mentions a Persona is just a representation of one's own mind - if it looks and quacks like a duck, it isn't necessarily a duck, otherwise I'd be worried about what someone with Mara as his persona would be like...


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

blocking humanities nihilism from killing humanity could count as a miracle.
remember free-will. god would not change people minds directly.
so he already did a miracle
edit:
what would destroying nyx change, if humanities nihilism would not disappear.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

BossKado said:


> blocking humanities nihilism from killing humanity could count as a miracle.
> remember free-will. god would cannot change people minds directly.
> so he already did a miracle



That's only from the movie Bruce Almighty.

In the Bible, God made Pharaoh refuse to let the Hebrews free so he could show off his fancy plagues and shit


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## Lucifeller (Oct 21, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> That's only from the movie Bruce Almighty.
> 
> In the Bible, God made Pharaoh refuse to let the Hebrews free so he could show off his fancy plagues and shit



Old Testament God was kind of an ass. And Megaten God is based on Old Testament God... you do the math.

Free Will in YHVH's eyes means 'you are free to decide not to worship me, but if you don't YOU WILL BE SORRY'. Just ask, oh... anyone in most mainseries SMT's casts.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

err. i dont think god control pharaoh mind to do it.
god would never do that we have free will.
we can do whatever we want to, but that doesn't mean theres no Consequence.

if I'm wrong could you please tell me which passage is that?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> Old Testament God was kind of an ass.



Understatement of the eon. He's possibly the most colossal dick in all of fiction. But I don't want to keep going on this topic because some people who are too easily offended might take issue with it.


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## skiboydoggy (Oct 21, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> Then why didn't he just freaking DO IT? It'd have solved so very many problems.
> 
> So either he just plain doesn't know HOW (in which case why should we artificially give him knowledge of how to do it if he lacks it in the first place?), or he can't.
> 
> Yes, I'm more than a bit pissed that someone who can supposedly summon a guy who does MIRACLES as his persona can't do any. It's stupid and contrived, but it apparently is how Persona rolls. Either that, or Personae, unlike demons from the main SMT series, aren't the real thing which is a lot more likely, since Igor specifically mentions a Persona is just a representation of one's own mind - if it looks and quacks like a duck, it isn't necessarily a duck, otherwise I'd be worried about what someone with Mara as his persona would be like...


I doubt there are any Persona users who actually have Mara as their true Persona. 

Wild Cards don't really count since they can equip everything and such.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

BossKado said:


> err. i dont think god control pharaoh mind to do it.
> god would never do that we have free will.
> we can do whatever we want to, but that doesn't mean theres no Consequence.
> 
> if I'm wrong could you please tell me which passage is that?



Exodus 4:21, 7:3, 7:13, 9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8, and 14:17


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

hmm ok, still erasing nihilism or any part in the mind of all humanity, I still dont think even god would do that.
what would happen to hell if that happens.


anyway this thread is really getting out of topic.


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

Not seeing what stops any of p1 cast from kicking their ass.

The universe arcana is completely deus ex, cause that's all it does.

The argument that p3 persona come easier is also retarded as we know that all you have to do is think about it.

Lastly, all they have going for them is P3 mc. If strata's weapons were so uneffective that whole scene with so and so would be really out of fucking place you know.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 21, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Not seeing what stops any of p1 cast from kicking their ass.
> 
> The universe arcana is completely deus ex, cause that's all it does.
> 
> ...



It should also be noted that P3's MC can't become immune to Nuclear attacks, which the P1 cast has - Nuclear is a type of spell that was later removed, but that also means P3's MC has no defense against Freidyne, which deals pretty much fatal damage to whatever it hits that doesn't resist Nuclear. At this point, who wins becomes a matter of whether the P1 cast can kill him before he uses a Persona, which... they have a decent chance of doing since Personae with Nuclear damage are fairly common and mostly high-level in P1. With Minato gone, the P3 cast is fairly boned.

And no, I'm not allowing Aigis to switch Personae like the main. Minato being alive and Aigis having that power are mutually exclusive, as anyone who played The Answer well knows. It's one or the other.


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## skiboydoggy (Oct 21, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> It should also be noted that P3's MC can't become immune to Nuclear attacks, which the P1 cast has - Nuclear is a type of spell that was later removed, but that also means P3's MC has no defense against Freidyne, which deals pretty much fatal damage to whatever it hits that doesn't resist Nuclear. At this point, who wins becomes a matter of whether the P1 cast can kill him before he uses a Persona, which... they have a decent chance of doing since Personae with Nuclear damage are fairly common and mostly high-level in P1. With Minato gone, the P3 cast is fairly boned.
> 
> And no, I'm not allowing Aigis to switch Personae like the main. Minato being alive and Aigis having that power are mutually exclusive, as anyone who played The Answer well knows. It's one or the other.


On the other hand, Minato can just toss out Armageddon, which as of P3P doesn't even need him to pop out his Persona.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 21, 2010)

Yeah... if his speed is high enough. If it isn't, he eats Freidyne and that's all she wrote. Barring absolutely shitty Magic power, Freidyne is pretty much an instant KO on anyone with PC-level HP. Only reason it doesn't consistently slaughter you is because enemies who use it tend to have hideously low magic power... but used by the team? IT HURTS. A LOT.


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## Dark Evangel (Oct 21, 2010)

So can anyone tell me how powerful Maki Sonomura is? I haven't really finished playing the first Persona game despite it's the very first one I have ever played.


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## skiboydoggy (Oct 21, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> Yeah... if his speed is high enough. If it isn't, he eats Freidyne and that's all she wrote. Barring absolutely shitty Magic power, Freidyne is pretty much an instant KO on anyone with PC-level HP. Only reason it doesn't consistently slaughter you is because enemies who use it tend to have hideously low magic power... but used by the team? IT HURTS. A LOT.


I'm sure Messiah and/or Universe's speed is higher than anything the P1 cast has to offer.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

a persona does not make the user invincible all the time, let say the entire cast of p1 is sleeping then someone shoots them. in battle that wouldn't probably amount to them dying because there persona's are active.
the same way you're still alive even after being attacked by elec/fire/wind/ice/almighty attacks/reaper's gun/attacks from gigantic monsters
that should kill any human.

so in battle, guns does not damage that much with a persona active.

as for the evokers, they all have magic feathers inside that triggers your persona(if you have 1), created by the kirijo group, it takes less time than your p1 way.

and p3 MC is not immune to anything, and nuclear attacks are now considered to be almighty attacks too, the same way pierce/slash/strike are considered as physical in p4.

the fight is either gonna be this
p3 mc uses infinity spell(invulnerable for 1 turn) and see's what they do
2nd turn he uses armageddon(9999, its higher than your hp by 10x) target all.
p1 party dies.
victory cry, restores hp/mp after the battle.

why would he need to use universe arcana on lowly humans?

p3 mc lvl 99 stats
999hp/999mp

edit:



Dark Evangel said:


> So can anyone tell me how powerful Maki Sonomura is? I haven't really finished playing the first Persona game despite it's the very first one I have ever played.


about the same as any persona user in the p1 party. the only difference is stats and weapons


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

As nice as that argument is, you act like p3's armageddon is worth a damn. It's watered down p2 attack and no, p3 is massively longer than p1 or p2 way facto f the matter is, it takes far more step to

 think> pull gun> lift gun> shoot gun> summon persona > tell persona attack

 compared to

 summon persona > tell persona attack

And bullshit if Messiah is p3's ultimate, it's what? maybe midtier at best. Also you're arguing as if p3 has the speed advantage, they don't.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

zenieth said:


> think> pull gun> lift gun> shoot gun> summon persona > tell persona attack



this action can take a split second. and unlike in p1, p3's type of summoning relies more on technology. why, because its more reliable as the evoker itself forces the persona to be summoned.
1 p1 type of summoning needs a lot of concentration, why? because there way of summoning a persona is not like a switch, they don't have any outside force helping them to summon so its like conjuring magic, you need to concentrate.

it works like this.
there an enemy approaching.
p1: has magic
p3: has a gun

p1: cast magic, then shoots
p3: aim's gun, then shoots

get it?

and p3 mc ascending to the moon and sealing nyx, he's already far above any wild card user in the persona series. and this much is already obvious in his stats(hp999/sp999), weapons(can equip all), wild card ability(can use fusion spells ALONE)

he is the strongest persona user.

and he can get the girls no matter how bad you answer as them, by the end of the s.links, he will always get the girl.

edit:
and yes armageddon is a really BIG deal. its 9999 damage no matter who you hit, it targets all, using spell master you can do it twice. after the battle theres victory cry which restore your hp and mp. its a freaking gamebreaker. 
and in p2 you no one can do it alone


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

He isn't the strongest persona user, he's dues ex machina, plain and simple. Also you mean all of this flare and style they had to use to summon?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5DT57_mfD4[/YOUTUBE]

well shit that's a long ass time, theatrics sure do stretch out the time don't it.

game stats mean shit. Zidane has crap ability compared to most other ff characters and he's technically one of the top three.


So he got the girls, that means what? All the persona heros technically get the girl. Hell p2 mc had all the girls by the end of the first cd and it was more a choice on who he wanted.

edit: Like it matters that you can do it with one person compared to two in p2 where it literally beats everyone, no damage needed, no multiple uses, one shot every damn enemy ever.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

try showing the original persona 1 in PS, they made the animation more faster in the PSP version, you can even skip the persona being summoned and just show the skills. while in the original, there summonings are not so fast.


he is the strongest that is a fact.


try comaparing him to other persona user.
doing fusion spell by himself, not a big deal?
then try this p3 mc, 1v1 on any persona user you know. 
no one even compares.
(except the velvet room attendants)

game stat MEAN things on this game

in p4 the damage is still the same, the concept of shadows strength is still the same. but when it comes to the mc, why didn't they make lvl 99 stats 999hp/999sp
plain and simple, because p3 mc is special.

edit:
basically 9999 is 1 hit on everything on the game(except velvet room attendants) and by adding spell master is just my way of saying overkill.


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

No one compares, save, you know the p2 cast that did things like, I don't know, dodge machine gun fire and take out entire military on their own. Oh and how about Tatsuya punching out philemon, you know Philemon, the big good, the guy who controls the power of persona, the equal to nyarlathotep, that kid.

he has the best game stats, therefore he is the strongest...

 that's like the stupidest reasoning in all of time, that might just surpass Saga wizard level reasoning.

edit:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnqg5ExHzQY[/YOUTUBE]


yeaaaaaaaah, still not seeing the huge tim it takes to manifest a persona


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

all of p1 cast, all of p2 cast, each of them alone are just a normal wild card user. against p3 mc alone is strong enough just by himself.
compare.

guns? military?
shadows are in the form of tanks, monsters, grotesque beings.
shadows are much much more treat than the military.

shadows>military
demons>military

so don't add something stupid in the discussion like the military.
hitler's military to be more exact.

as for dodging guns. while lighting attacks which is much more faster than guns, that can be dodge. every persona user gains a power up physically from there persona.

your comparing monster attacks with magic to guns and military?!
how did you expect them to survive fighting monsters.

also dodging guns/grenades could also count on behalf of p3.

also stats, then why do you think they didn't make p4 mc stats 999/999
while the game damage is still the same, that just doesn't make any sense.

edit:
no one still compares to p3 mc on 1v1 among all persona user 1,2,3 or 4

edit:
also they still need to concentrate for there persona's to appear.
and for p3 they just aim and shoot. speed advantage don't exist.
just aiming and shooting whoever has more practicality to it and more reliable.


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

They fought demons, so your argument holds even less weight. Shadows are nothing more than at best, the leaking residue of Nyarlathotep, and he even made personal shadows for the p2 cast.

Let me rephrase that. Hitler's military that sealed their persona ability who's ass they still kicked, without persona. Zio isn't lightning speed unless proven.

Your entire argument is basing off the fact that you believe shadows> hitler's military despite the fact that said military is composed entirely of cyborgs and androids, mecha that can seal persona and fully automatize machine-guns and lasers

 also the fact that they fought, with far more ease demons.

OH I don't know, maybe they just decided not too make p4 mc's stats that level?


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

where did you get the idea that demons are stronger than shadows?

shadows are not weaker than demons.
demons are also not weaker than shadows.
shadows can do magic that demon can do, shadows are big/strong/fast/monstrous just as demons are. they are practically the same.

demon's are being you can still talk to, 
while shadows are just monster that attack you.

so those feats with beating hitler, are not that impossible for any other persona users.

zio is electricity. nuff said

your reasoning for the stats is dumb.

that said.
again what can the persona user from 1,2 do against p3 mc 1v1
tell me


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

Well tatsuya could freeze time and drop a nuke on him you know... the thing apollo is pretty damn good at or just cut his head off.


you still don't understand why using stats for a gauge of strength is retarded

unless it's stated as fact, zio is just magic lightning and magic lightning =/= actual lightning.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

you really don't get it do you?
a wild card persona user who can use two persona at once against someone who is only a wild card. p3 mc is obviously superior. 
as I see here your just desperately grasping idea out of nowhere

p3 mc: wild card, uses all types of weapon, can use fusion spells alone
everyone else: normal wild card use alone

just admit the fact that he is the strongest persona user among all persona teams

edit:
and also stats is just 1 of the things I base off the he is the strongest persona user


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

Wooooooo two persona at the same time


lordy master that be terrifying a concept.

Using all weapons means that he's versatile, not the strongest, hell in the original and p3p he can't use anything other than sabers and even in fes he still can't use guns or knives.

Just cause his wild card is unique doesn't make him stronger, it makes him unique and considering he's Nyx avatar, that's pretty much a given, but he's shown nothing, absolutely nothing story wise that suddenly makes him better than everyone else.

If he was the strongest, he could of just killed nyx and ended the concept of Nihilism. Wouldn't be the first time in SMT they fucked over conventional.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

two persona is the basic of using fusion spell.
didn't you know that?

back again here.
what would happen if you kill death.

really dude


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

You don't die.


Sort of a pretty simple concept to wrap your head around, you should ask somebody like Aleph, I'm pretty sure he knows about killing things you shouldn't be able to kill.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

that is just 1 possibility.
people not dying is going to f*ck up the world. what would happen to those already dead, they come back.

there are ideas about this, on several different fictions.
there also, you can't kill death or death will form again.

either way, the world is f*cked up.
so the idea of killing death(nyx) is stupid.


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

They couldn't to begin with so what's your point? He only sealed Nyx because he's its avatar otherwise he'd of gotten the business with the rest of his cast.

Like I said living deus ex machina.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 21, 2010)

First off, the P3 MC being able to do 9999 doesn't matter. His HP still caps at 999, even assuming he can get that high without screwing up his build. Freidyne in the hands of any decent magic user at high levels will do 999. Result: one very fucking dead MC. Because, as I mentioned, HE CAN'T RESIST NUCLEAR.

(It should be noted that Freidyne can't be reflected either. Normally only Almighty spells are unreflectable)

Secondly, in a group setting, Maki will go first and Megidoraon the entire field. Her being one of the fastest characters towards endgame AND the best magic user in the game easily makes her spells do max damage when used, especially the heavy-damage ones like Megidoraon and Freidyne.

But all of this is moot since P2 is king anyway. Oh well.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

zenieth said:


> So he got the girls, that means what? All the persona heros technically get the girl. Hell p2 mc had all the girls by the end of the first cd and it was more a choice on who he wanted.



Minato got Aigis though, which means he wins


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

I should make Aigis vs. Chahamaru just to screw with your mind EM.


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

@Lucifeller
Infinity is a fusion spell that makes you invulnerable for 1 turn, INVULNERABLE.
so that includes all attacks/magic.

and also, magic/physical damage to you is reduced as you level, even if almighty and even if you don't have any resistance on it.
freidyne will obviously deal high damage to someone with less magic resistance
but that is not the case.
so freidyne doing 999 damage on lvl99 persona user is impossible.

but armageddon ignores this it will always deal 9999 damage.

@zenieth
what part of p3 mc achievements is an ass pull?
and I already explained this.
edit:
now your just trolling


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## zenieth (Oct 21, 2010)

His entire being is the ass pull, if he wasn't the nyx avatar, the true ending would not of been that way.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 21, 2010)

zenieth said:


> His entire being is the ass pull, if he wasn't the nyx avatar, the true ending would not of been that way.



Which wouldn't really matter since he died trying. Which would mean Aigis >>> Minato since she was able to beat Erebus and the entirety of SEES.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 21, 2010)

> @Lucifeller
> Infinity is a fusion spell that makes you invulnerable for 1 turn, INVULNERABLE.
> so that includes all attacks/magic.



Just like Masakados made you immune to everything but Almighty?

Fun fact: the Hitoshura is using Masakados in the optional DDS superboss battle. The only skills that can hit him are Almighty and... the two skill types that WERE NOT in his own game, ie, Earth attacks (Tera spells work, try yourself) and Gun attacks.

Infinity provides protection from all spells IN GAME (it sets the existing resistances to 'block' for one turn). There's no reason, especially with Masakados being a clear precedent otherwise, for it to cover types that AREN'T in the same game. Given Masakados's precedent, I'll assume Nuclear will kill MC just fine.

Also, all of it is moot if MC can't go first, especially since one of the Personae needed to cast Infinity (Vishnu) is weak to Dark, which is just asking for Mudoon to the face. And Ananta doesn't resist it either, so it's a good 60% or so chance that the fight for MC ends right then and there.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

zenieth said:


> I should make Aigis vs. Chahamaru just to screw with your mind EM.



It ends in hot lesbian robosex


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## BossKado (Oct 21, 2010)

no infinity's description itself is INVULNERABLE for 1 turn, not just magic/attacks in game, it says INVULNERABLE. it applies against anything. 
as the fusion spells, description: 
INVULNERABLE, no there is no achiles heel.
and also, why would you equip vishnu as your default, the only use i have for vishnu is for infinity, you change your current persona to vishnu then cast infinity.

aegis with the party against erebus, its not beating erebus, its more like warding it off, as it will always comeback. it can't reach nyx because of the great seal, and erebus can't do anything against it, then saw aegis and the rest of the party, thinking that it could used them to somehow affect the seal, it attacks them.


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## skiboydoggy (Oct 22, 2010)

zenieth said:


> As nice as that argument is, you act like p3's armageddon is worth a damn. It's watered down p2 attack and no, p3 is massively longer than p1 or p2 way facto f the matter is, it takes far more step to



Okay... But Armageddon is still going to kill everyone. Your point?



> think> pull gun> lift gun> shoot gun> summon persona > tell persona attack
> 
> compared to
> 
> summon persona > tell persona attack



The Evoker is a method to shorten Persona summoning, for fuck's sake. It bypasses a lot of the head grabbing and concentrating theatrics that they would otherwise have to go through. Shoot yourself, summon Persona, kill monsters. Either way, when they are still fast enough to fight gods and demons and laugh it off, that speed's not going to make a significant difference.
Besides, we already have people who can summon Personae without the Evokers, namely Strega. It didn't take any less time.



> And bullshit if Messiah is p3's ultimate, it's what? maybe midtier at best. Also you're arguing as if p3 has the speed advantage, they don't.



What the hell are you smoking? Messiah has the best stats in the game and has an ass load of resistances. The only Persona that's better than it is possibly Orpheus Telos. But either way, Messiah is Minato's "true" Persona. It appears where everyone else's Personae do in the end credits, and is created by fusing Orpheus and Thanatos, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you the significance of those two Personae.

Both sides in this argument are being pretty ass on head retarded. I'm sure I don't have to explain why BossKado isn't doing a good job at what he's doing, but Zenieth?

ONE SIDE IS BASICALLY DEM PERSONIFIED THEREFORE HE CANNOT WIN.

What the fuck is that supposed to be? When one side has the strongest Persona ever, capable of DEMing through everything, it DEMs through everything.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 22, 2010)

BossKado said:


> no infinity's description itself is INVULNERABLE for 1 turn, not just magic/attacks in game, it says INVULNERABLE. it applies against anything.



That's the biggest no-limits fallacy I've ever seen. So you are saying it should, for instance, let the P3 MC tank, say, the Ultimate Nullifier?

I'm going to take what happened in previous games over what you say, personally. And Masakados IS a precedent - the only reason why the ultimate Magatama doesn't void Almighty as well is because Masakados doesn't chunk off 30% of your SP every time like Infinity - you set it as your active Magatama and that's it, and it has no drawbacks, if it nulled everything the rest of the game would get hellishly boring, since you couldn't die at all.

But with that +10 to all stats that it gives, pretty much the only thing that CAN kill you is Lucifer doublecasting High King on the main character - nothing else will so much as dent him.


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## BossKado (Oct 22, 2010)

zenieth said:


> His entire being is the ass pull, if he wasn't the nyx avatar, the true ending would not of been that way.


fyi he is p3 mc is not an avatar of nyx, death is just sealed inside him. and death is a incomplete form of avatar nyx. so please play the game, or if you did. please try to understand the story.


@Lucifeller
persona series is not connected to nocturne, that is just your speculation, zanma in persona series is almighty skill, while in SMT series its the same as garu.

in game of p3, there is an equipment called omnipotent orb it blocks anything except almighty, all the time.
so infinity spell being invulnerable to anything is not so impossible. and its not perfect. it consumes sp and it only last for 1 turn.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 22, 2010)

> persona series is not connected to nocturne, that is just your speculation, zanma in persona series is almighty skill, while in SMT series its the same as garu.



You do know the Persona series is, in fact, connected to the main SMT series, right? The split point is the nuclear attack in SMT1, which in the story of Shin Megami Tensei If... was prevented. And SMT If...'s main character is canonically the female, Tamaki Uchida, who also appears in Persona 2 as a member of the Kuzunoha Investigations Agency along with Chief Todoroki.

Canonically, Personaverse and mainline Megatenverse have always been connected.

By the way, you're wrong. Zan in Persona, just like in main SMT, has always been FORCE damage since the first game (not Wind, they are two different things - Zan is Force, Garu is Wind. Ignore that hackjob of a translation made for the PSX game, it was butchered badly between making Masao black and everything else...). Are you sure you're familiar with the series besides Persona? Because that's a pretty nasty mistake you made there.


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## BossKado (Oct 22, 2010)

no in persona 2 zan is labeled along with the almighty spells.
while in the SMT zan works the same way as garu.
force affinity also can be considered wind.


SMT and persona series are not in the same in world, there to many inconsistency.
alternate realities or timelines would be more acceptable.

edit:
I'm playing the online SMT series megaten, and a lot of the equipment with force affinity has wind labeled on there names


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## Lucifeller (Oct 22, 2010)

> no in persona 2 zan is labeled along with the almighty spells.
> while in the SMT zan works the same way as garu.
> force affinity also can be considered wind.



I assume you refer to Eternal Punishment's translation, which heavily based itself on the poorly-made Revelations translation when it came to these things? Because in Innocent Sin's recent translation patch, as well as in the PSP version of Persona 1, Zan is clearly labeled as FORCE. In fact, some rare armor gives Force resistance, and it lessens damage from Zan, but not from Megido or other Almighty skills.



> SMT and persona series are not in the same in world, there to many inconsistency.



...are you dense? The Persona series has been stated by Word of God as well as ingame evidence to be a direct sequel of Shin Megami Tensei If..., which IS a mainline SMT game where history took a different path (in it, the hero's team managed to reach Thorman before he launched his nuclear missiles and prevented the world's nuking). Tamaki "Tammy" Uchida was the main in SMT If..., and she also appears in Persona 2, AND references to her past as a DEVIL SUMMONER.

It doesn't get more 'in the same world' than that. Tammy more or less punches you in the face with the fact that yes, Persona's world is the same as mainline SMT's world, only instead of the world being wiped out, it was saved. That's the only difference, but the physical world that the game takes place in is the exact same up until Thorman's actions.


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## BossKado (Oct 22, 2010)

what did I say, *alternate realities*.
basically original persona is a re-imagining of If... also if you consider the existence of both dante and raidou in nocturne, it should be obvious. just as the existance of a female MC in p3p. add devil survivor to the equation for additional head-ache.

we can say that all those character live in the same world, 

but saying that all of those events that happened in every single game happened in that *same* world is so dead wrong.

edit:
also the existance of an alternate raidou from devil summoner just proves this

editedit:
also there goes your arguement about force not being wind. 
why did you think they removed zan from p3 and p4?
because there using zan as wind in other smt games

like in devil summoner 2
zan combo with raidou is wind cutter.
and also the demons that have zan skills have wind on there names.
like wind Decrabia


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## Lucifeller (Oct 22, 2010)

That argument holds no water, since they removed the Nuclear spells as well, and THOSE don't have any equivalent that's close to them. Every game tends to focus on its own skills and has its own gimmicks to make it less 'more of the same stuff'. Otherwise all SMT games would look like each other and there'd be no point buying them.

So for instance, we get the Mantra grid in DDS, Magatama in SMT: Nocturne, Press Turns in both, the unique Demonoid series of monsters and the possibility to recruit humans (Gaians and Mesians) in the original SMT games, Demon Co-Op in Strange Journey, teams, strategy-setting and the ability to customize anyone in Devil Survivor... and so on. It's necessary to keep a series fresh, otherwise it'd get stale fast.

Also, Jesus H. Christ on the cross, ORIGINAL PERSONA IS NOT A REIMAGINING OF IF. Persona is a SEQUEL of If, period, end of story, no exceoptions, the goddamn creators said so, stop trying to prove otherwise. Please.

Tamaki is 15 years old in If, while she's well into her twenties (28, specifically) in Persona 2, and P2 takes place about five years after P1 judging by Kei, Eriko and Yukino's age in it. It adds up to If... taking place before Persona 1 and the timeline fits.

Basically, here's the gist of the SMTverse:

We have a common origin point in SMT1. Depending on how the Thorman events go, the world splits at that point. One side goes down the SMT2 path - the world is destroyed by nukes, and we all know what happens next, with demons all over the place. The other side has the world be saved, and as a result demons never get the foothold in the world that they have in SMT2. This leads into If..., then Persona.

Due to the severe reduction in demon activities following If...'s events, humans' magical power significantly drops in the Persona verse as a side effect - they become mostly incapable of using magic unless it's channeled by a Persona.

However, Personae cannot simply be awakened willy-nilly. Some materials, generally obtained by the demons that can still be found in the world OR created by the Demon Artist, are needed as catalysts, and even then, they must be prepared with the aid of Igor (thus Philemon's power).

This involution in magical power becomes even WORSE in P3. In the first two games, pretty much everyone was a Wild Card, being able to use nearly every Persona with minimal restrictions. In P3 and P4? Only ONE person out of each individual cast manages to be a Wild Card (Elizabeth doesn't count because her being HUMAN at all is dubious at best). Everyone else's stuck with what they get, showing a further degradation of Persona power in the general populace.

The only real difference is that in Persona's universe magic itself is deteriorating. It's becoming increasingly rare and people capable of awakening multiple Personae are becoming even rarer.

The fact Philemon and Nyarlathotep (two major sources of magic power themselves) aren't involved in P3 and P4 may be a large part of WHY it's happening - as long as they were around, magic seemed to still be relatively strong since they provided it, but as soon as they more or less departed, leaving only Igor behind to do his job as Velvet Room attendant, all of a sudden Personae became rare as hell, and keep getting rarer.

I personally foresee a future where no Wild Cards will ever appear anymore, and eventually no Personae at all. Hell, it may well evolve into the Strange Journey universe, where demons and magic just plain no longer exist outside teh Schwarzwelt. But we'll never know unless Word of God says so.


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## zenieth (Oct 22, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> Okay... But Armageddon is still going to kill everyone. Your point?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The DEM only applies to Nyx, just like Izanagi only applies to Izanami. He isn't the strongest persona user ever, people need to get off that strange concept.


 Also no evokers aren't a simpler way, they're the only way. Persona users after the Nyarlathotep incident, who haven't received the wild card prior are restricted to that method, p4 users have to do it with cads but the reason still applies. All the theatrics are merely flare from the character, CIS.

 Straga could summon evokers because of their whole drug thing and the leader inflicts damage onto himself to spur the summoning. Also I wasn't the one who brought up this argument so don't be getting on my case over it.


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## BossKado (Oct 22, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> Also, Jesus H. Christ on the cross, ORIGINAL PERSONA IS NOT A REIMAGINING OF IF. Persona is a SEQUEL of If, period, end of story, no exceoptions, the goddamn creators said so, stop trying to prove otherwise. Please.
> 
> Tamaki is 15 years old in If, while she's well into her twenties (28, specifically) in Persona 2, and P2 takes place about five years after P1 judging by Kei, Eriko and Yukino's age in it. It adds up to If... taking place before Persona 1 and the timeline fits.
> 
> ...


i cut the rest as I deem it doesn't concern the arguement.
so this are basically alternate realities

Its not as if the ending in the previous games are the only reality there is.
as there are several endings in various SMT games, and alternate realities were they happened. 
what's to say persona series is in a different realities than those endings?
a world where SMT 1 didnt happen
a world where people where nuked.

your just restricting the whole SMT universe to those endings.
and that is fan speculation.

persona, persona 2, persona 3, persona 4 are obviously in the same reality as they are from the same game title.

anyway my bad on the If... i never really bothered to play it.



also about your theory on the persona magic receding. that is obviously also fan speculation. no word of God said something like that, or even hinted it.
those events in p1 and p2, philemon himself directly(only towards the p.users) is involved.

edit:
well zan is still wind now. and that applies to every new games and the next smt franchise games.

anyway the most probable reason why they removed nuclear, earth, and made zan the same as wind. is to simplify the game. almighty is superior to nuclear they wont need it anymore.

editedit:
@troll
in strega's case  why didn't it apply to the rest of the members? they all take the same medication the forces them to use persona, what stopping them from using the same way of summoning as takaya.

also persona isn't limited to phiL, as other entities can grant persona's too. like izanami and death(I'll probably have to explain this. It was explained in the game directly the the presence of p3mc w/death inside him. unconciously awakens people to use persona 'junpei, ken, fuuka, and yukari<the most probable reason why she was able to summon persona after the fullmoon incident). although not wildcard


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## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2010)

> your just restricting the whole SMT universe to those endings.
> and that is fan speculation.



Except that during SMT: Nocturne, it's outright stated there's countless universes out there. When explaining the AMala Network and how the Conception happened on countless other worlds and will keep happening, Lucifer also mentions that there are many worlds where the only difference is literally whether someone lived or died, and you could mistake them for your own world aside from that.

Aradia herself, Yuko's protector goddess, is from one such world, which is why she has no actual power in the SMT world - she lacks the worship needed to do anything more than reveal herself and offer hope.



> also persona isn't limited to phiL, as other entities can grant persona's too. like izanami and death(I'll probably have to explain this. It was explained in the game directly the the presence of p3mc w/death inside him. unconciously awakens people to use persona 'junpei, ken, fuuka, and yukari<the most probable reason why she was able to summon persona after the fullmoon incident). although not wildcard



I'd like to point out that Igor is a servant of Philemon, and explicitly states his master has an interest in what is going on in the world of man. He's also the one running the Velvet Room, which is the source you get new Persona from. That Philemon, in spite of no longer being present in person, is the source of the Personae is pretty much a given, since he technically is not bound by the limits of Man - for God's sake, his power enabled Tatsuya to WARP THE WORLD to save a single dinky woman. Even without being present in person, his influence isn't completely gone, otherwise you couldn't access the Velvet Room at all, since it's run by HIS servant.

However, do note that the Room is much emptier than it once was - Belladonna, No-name and the Demon Painter are all gone, and Elizabeth replacing them still doesn't change the fact that it's gotten emptier now that Philemon and Nyarlathotep brought their trolling contest somewhere else.


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## zenieth (Oct 23, 2010)

None of those Demons/concepts gave the persons their persona, they merely set a predisposition in them. Also of note is that both p3 mc and p4 mc were in the presence of a butterfly, hell p4 was in the velvet room long before actually coming to inaba. So yeah


also lol you mad?


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## BossKado (Oct 23, 2010)

> Except that during SMT: Nocturne, it's outright stated there's countless universes out there. When explaining the AMala Network and how the Conception happened on countless other worlds and will keep happening, Lucifer also mentions that there are many worlds where the only difference is literally whether someone lived or died, and you could mistake them for your own world aside from that.
> 
> Aradia herself, Yuko's protector goddess, is from one such world, which is why she has no actual power in the SMT world - she lacks the worship needed to do anything more than reveal herself and offer hope.


@Lucifeller
so now basically you agree that the stories in the games, do not happen in the same world, as there are infinite alternate realities out there. 



> I'd like to point out that Igor is a servant of Philemon, and explicitly states his master has an interest in what is going on in the world of man. He's also the one running the Velvet Room, which is the source you get new Persona from. That Philemon, in spite of no longer being present in person, is the source of the Personae is pretty much a given, since he technically is not bound by the limits of Man - for God's sake, his power enabled Tatsuya to WARP THE WORLD to save a single dinky woman. Even without being present in person, his influence isn't completely gone, otherwise you couldn't access the Velvet Room at all, since it's run by HIS servant.


@lucifeller
what I am saying is persona is not only limited to phiL, as there are other entities that can grant you a persona, and even by human means.
what phiL grants you is extra power. 
and phiL was a lot more involved at p1, and p2 at the number of wild card users should be obvious.

the big difference between p1-p2 and p3, was nyar involvement who is basically an unnatural being that can be liken to the devil.
while death(nyx) is part of humanity since the very beginning, and what brought the events of p3 was humanities nihilism(erebus). 

so basically its humanities fault, and no unnatural being was involved in this matter.(also shadows were made from humans too, thats the biggest difference between demons and shadows)


also you can still hear Belladona and the pianist whenever you enter the velvet room, they don't need to appear to you as they are already introduced in p2 and their soul purpose there is to sing and play music for you.



anyway as the thread is going far and far away from the topic, I'd like to finalize my argument.

persona 3 team is more superior than persona 1's team
even if the whole party consist of wild cards they can't use fusion spells.
while in persona 3 the mc can use it by himself w/c should atleast need 2-3 persona users.

also I'm not as gullible to think that p3 team can take on p2 team as they can use fusion spells.
and I'm not that ignorant and stupid not see how broken a persona user that can access fusion spells(raids). if you played persona 2 or 3 you should know this.

also my argument still stays that p3 mc is the strongest persona user, as he showcased the most superior wild card in the whole series along with the most superior persona universe arcana(even igor said that its his 1st he created such a powerful arcana)

there is also no speed advantage on summoning persona. while fighting shadows/demons they don't need to summon anything and they themselves are firing magic directly, 

is there speed advantage? no.


also you guys should see your previous post, as you were arguing invulnerable, is not invulnerable? seriously. and your 1st idea as of why p1 beats p3 are pictures showing them using minor spells killing ghouls?!
no ones even trying.

edit:
@troll
in almost every persona game in persona, they were all given there wild card abilities in there dreams, in p1 and p2 did you see any butterflies approaching them? no. they don't need to come to them access them on there dream. they already know of their fate thats why philemon appeared in there dream, the same way as igor appeared in p4 main's dream and instead gave him the *contract* instead of meeting phiL. with the exception of p3mc that was given to him awake because he had an ethereal being(death) inside of him, that gave the *contract* to him directly. and also the only time that butterfly appeared in the journey is only from the 1st cutscene, thats probably the game creator hinting that phiL is watching over.
also that butterfly was only shown, and did not approach p3mc.

also p3mc unconsciously awakened them as izanami granted the p4mc a persona. 
also again what phiL grants is extra power(wild cards). not the persona itself, as it originates to the person directly.


also don't worry I'm not mad you. when you started calling p3mc DEM you were trolling, so I started to name you as to what your doing. w/c you also call yourself so no harm done, neh?


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## zenieth (Oct 23, 2010)

I'm trolling for stating what he literally is? He's not an asspull DEM, but he most certainly is one.

The whole point of the game is for him to seal Nyx, simple as that. Hell most of the story would largely be unchanged if you took him out of it all together save that everybody dies at the end.


edit: You're the one who came up with the argument that p3's way was faster than p1 and p2's those killing ghoul posts were only there to show you were talking ass about them needing long times to summon persona.

Your also still using gameplay logic to say p3> the rest. By your logic, p3 mc can own Hitoshura because the first has armageddon and the second does not.

Also a great wild card doesn't make you the strongest, sure it gives you a good advantage but without feats it's bullshit. Tatsuya and the others have warped the world with their powers. His ultimate persona can stop time and there's also the laser and machine gun dodging feat, which unless you have feats of p3 doing the same it leaves you completely underwhelming. Oh and surviving the universe ending, that's a pretty big thing you know.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2010)

> @Lucifeller
> so now basically you agree that the stories in the games, do not happen in the same world, as there are infinite alternate realities out there.



Dear god I'm about to bang my head on the wall.

Okay, I'll draw you a diagram.

We have the SMT1 world. This is the basis from where it all starts.

From THAT POINT, the timeline diverges based on that one single event the main character is involved in - the Thorman incident.

Like this: *Y*

On the right of the 'y', we have SMT mainline.

On the left, we have If... and Persona.

Notice the important detail - BOTH LINES HAVE THE SAME ORIGIN POINT. Therefore, yes, the world IS the same, it's the EVENTS, in this case, that went differently. There's even an event in If... where Tamaki basically finds out it was such a close call whether the world would be destroyed or not that she can literally peek into the 'main' timeline. Unlike every other 'world', these two timelines exist parallel to each other and have a common origin point - IF... makes a big deal of it taking place directly from the original game, it's not simply an alternate universe. The Amala network worlds are explicitly stated to be normally inaccessible to each other (which is why Aradia, being a goddess from another world, has no power to speak of) - the fact Tamaki was able to get a peek in the ruined world is pretty much proof that these two timelines are unusual, to say the least.


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## zenieth (Oct 23, 2010)

You forgot that the devil summoner games also take place in the If... time line Lucifeller.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 23, 2010)

zenieth said:


> You forgot that the devil summoner games also take place in the If... time line Lucifeller.



Technically Devil Summoner and Soul Hackers are on the If.. timeline. The Raidou games would be pre-SMT and the divergence starts in the King Abaddon games, since the final dungeon of the first game blatently shows that the SMT main timeline would end up happening but the Chaos ending of KA changes to the If.. timeline while Law ending is SMT timeline.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Technically Devil Summoner and Soul Hackers are on the If.. timeline. The Raidou games would be pre-SMT and the divergence starts in the King Abaddon games, since the final dungeon of the first game blatently shows that the SMT main timeline would end up happening but the Chaos ending of KA changes to the If.. timeline while Law ending is SMT timeline.



Now I need to play King Abaddon. It's the only SMT game I haven't played yet, I have it sitting in my pile, but was sidetracked by SJ and Devil Survivor...

It's really fascinating how it all connects if examined closely, isn't it?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 23, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> Now I need to play King Abaddon. It's the only SMT game I haven't played yet, I have it sitting in my pile, but was sidetracked by SJ and Devil Survivor...
> 
> It's really fascinating how it all connects if examined closely, isn't it?



Let's just say that my fanboy meter went up to 11 when I was going through the end of Soulless Army. Then the beginning of King Abaddon came, and Louis fuckin Cypher is introduced damn early.


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## Lucifeller (Oct 25, 2010)

Soulless Army wins simply for having Cyborg Rasputin. :ho


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 25, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> Soulless Army wins simply for having Cyborg Rasputin. :ho



Raidou bashes Rasputin over the head with a bottle.


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## BossKado (Oct 31, 2010)

haaa.. I actually wish you guys actually read/understand the/your/my posts. nothing to add here

_I am in a garden of trolls._


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