# Toneri vs Juubito?



## MaruUchiha (May 10, 2020)

How does Toneri damage Juubito wothout senjutsu?

vs

Location: Moon
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: None

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (May 10, 2020)

Toneri blast him off the planet.


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## MaruUchiha (May 10, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Toneri blast him off the planet.


How would it effect Juubito without senjutsu?

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (May 10, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> How would it effect Juubito without senjutsu?



Toneri has Rikudo Senjutsu troll 

And he has better feats with it than Juubito does 

Toneri beats the ever living shit out of him

Mid diff at absolute worst

Yagai levels of force are enough to X Juubito through his regen as they almost killed the superior Madara, Toneri casually dumps on that level of attack.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (May 10, 2020)

Gonna be some real headassery in this thread even ignoring the OP

I can taste it

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (May 10, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Toneri has Rikudo Senjutsu troll


He has Tenseigan and TCM. Those don't give you Rikudou Senjutsu or senjutsu at all. Toneri isn't even listed as a Rikudou Senjutsu user OR senjutsu user





And like I said you have consistently some of the worst posts i've seen in threads. It's hilarious how much you point the finger at other users being trolls


WorldsStrongest said:


> And he has better feats with it than Juubito does


Where are Toneri's senjutsu feats? Don't tell me you think Tenseigan automatically gives you Rikudou Senjutsu just because he has Truth Seeker Orbs..



They make it clear you can also use Truth Seeker orbs without Senjutsu with TCM, and didn't list Toneri as a Rikidou Senjutsu user


WorldsStrongest said:


> Yagai levels of force are enough to X Juubito through his regen as they almost killed the superior Madara, Toneri casually dumps on that level of attack.


It would have to get thru the Truth Seeker shield first, which it won't without senjutsu anyway

Reactions: Like 2


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## MaruUchiha (May 10, 2020)

You've disliked every one of my posts so far.. If you weren't on the losing side of this you wouldn't be so butthurt

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (May 10, 2020)

The Otsutsuki clan all have whatever they inherited from their mom that gives them access to TSB and allows them all to hurt each other and perform Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.

Sasuke for instance doesn't have Rikudo Senjutsu either but does have the Six Paths  now and can hurt JJ's and interact with TBB because of it.

Having Hamura's chakra means he can as well.


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## MaruUchiha (May 10, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> The Otsutsuki clan all have whatever they inherited from their mom that gives them access to TSB and allows them all to hurt each other and perform Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.


This sounds like fanfic. Show me decendant Ootsutsukis using Turth Seeker Orbs and Six Paths Chibaku Tensei. 


Hi no Ishi said:


> Sasuke for instance doesn't have Rikudo Senjutsu either but does have the Six Paths  now and can hurt JJ's and interact with TBB because of it.


Sasuke's case isn't comparable to Toneri. Toneri didn't get amped by Hagoromo like Sasuke, he just has Tenseigan. Not comparable powerups. In that case can Nagato damage jins just because he has Rikudou chakra from Rinnegan then?


Hi no Ishi said:


> Having Hamura's chakra means he can as well.



So are you saying all decendants of Hagoromo and Hamura can automatically damage Juubi jins, or are you saying Nagato can damage Juubi jins because he has Hagoromo's chakra? Neither makes sense


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## WorldsStrongest (May 10, 2020)

See?


WorldsStrongest said:


> Gonna be some real headassery in this thread even ignoring the OP
> 
> I can taste it


OP started us off


MaruUchiha said:


> He has Tenseigan and TCM. Those don't give you Rikudou Senjutsu


Yes

Yes they do

Kinda why he has TSBs genius


MaruUchiha said:


>


> Citing and literally hiding behind the Wiki

Nice joke


MaruUchiha said:


> like I said you have consistently some of the worst posts i've seen in threads. It's hilarious how much you point the finger at other users being trolls


Says the one whos name is a literal site wide fucking meme and has been laughed out of every section hes ever tried to post in


MaruUchiha said:


> Where are Toneri's senjutsu feats? Don't tell me you think Tenseigan automatically gives you Rikudou Senjutsu just because he has Truth Seeker Orbs..


Yes

That is exactly why he has Rikudo Senjutsu

Its flat out confirmed that TSBs = The presence of Rikudo Senjutsu



			
				4th DB said:
			
		

> Ninjutsu - Truth-Seeking Balls
> No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive, supplementary
> 
> *The one who carries the truth-seeking black orbs will be granted the truth of all things!!*
> ...




You dont know what the fuck youre talking about


MaruUchiha said:


> It would have to get thru the Truth Seeker shield first, which it won't without senjutsu anyway


Sure it will

As it has Senjutsu as proven by the use of TSBs that re directly stated to only be acquired through using Rikudo Senjutsu


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## WorldsStrongest (May 10, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> You've disliked every one of my posts so far.. If you weren't on the losing side of this you wouldn't be so butthurt


Nice logic

That also why you neg literally every one of my posts and downvote every OP I make?

Cuz youre wrong and you know it?

Cool good to know 

Lets also not forget Im far from the only one you do this shit to


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## WorldsStrongest (May 10, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Show me decendant Ootsutsukis using Turth Seeker Orbs







MaruUchiha said:


> Sasuke's case isn't comparable to Toneri. Toneri didn't get amped by Hagoromo like Sasuke


Nah he just has Hamuras fucking eye

The same way Sasuke and Madara have Hagoromos eye and thus also RIkudo chakra


MaruUchiha said:


> In that case can Nagato damage jins just because he has Rikudou chakra from Rinnegan then


Theres literally no reason he wouldnt be able to

So yes


MaruUchiha said:


> So are you saying all decendants of Hagoromo and Hamura can automatically damage Juubi jins


Obviously not as we saw Naruto and Sasuke pre Rikudo fail to do this without Senjutsu

Doesnt exactly challenge the fact someone who has Rikudo Senjutsu showings AND a Rikudo eye can do it tho now does it genius?


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## MaruUchiha (May 10, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yes
> 
> Yes they do
> 
> Kinda why he has TSBs genius



Wouldn't Toneri having Truth Seeker orbs prove needing Rikudou Sage Mode is NOT the case?


WorldsStrongest said:


> > Citing and literally hiding behind the Wiki
> 
> Nice joke


Says the dude that's about to cite and hide behind the databook. Besides I knew you would use that weak copout where you discredit Wiki. Problem is we don't need Wiki for this. Toneri obviously doesn't have Rikudou Sage Mode, and he proves you don't need it to use Truth Seeker orbs


WorldsStrongest said:


> Says the one whos name is a literal site wide fucking meme and has been laughed out of every section hes ever tried to post in


It's a meme because of Lewd Man accusing me of dupes genius, and i've posted in plenty of sections without getting "laughed out" so you claim. What you're talking about is a couple times in the DBD or OBD where some nerds got butthurt about a matchup. Now you're trying to blow it out of proportion because you're constantly dishonest


WorldsStrongest said:


> Yes
> 
> That is exactly why he has Rikudo Senjutsu
> 
> Its flat out confirmed that TSBs = The presence of Rikudo Senjutsu


You need Hagoromo or the Bijuus for Rikudou Sage Mode!



Toneri has neither, and Tenseigan/TCM is a complete seperate powerup


WorldsStrongest said:


> You dont know what the fuck youre talking about


Ironic


WorldsStrongest said:


> Sure it will
> 
> As it has Senjutsu as proven by the use of TSBs that re directly stated to only be acquired through using Rikudo Senjutsu


Wow.. Tenseigan automatically grants Riludou Senjutsu. Hands down one of the worst claims i've heard in the NBD in a while. I wonder how many of your cheerleaders are gonna die on this hill with you

I was obviously talking about the other decendants you poor excuse for a smartass


WorldsStrongest said:


> Nah he just has Hamuras fucking eye
> 
> The same way Sasuke and Madara have Hagoromos eye and thus also RIkudo chakra
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (May 10, 2020)

I’d  back Toneri for the win

Reactions: Like 2


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## JayK (May 10, 2020)

Toneri negdiffshittrashfucks


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## Tri (May 10, 2020)

Maru really out here citing a fan made wiki

Reactions: Like 2


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## MaruUchiha (May 10, 2020)

Tri said:


> Maru really out here citing a fan made wiki


A fan made Wiki where they need source material to cite before it can even be approved


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## Braiyan (May 10, 2020)

You need some kind of Six Paths power to use Six Paths Chibaku Tensei. Hamura can use Six Paths Chibaku Tensei. Toneri's using Hamura's power due to being his descendant and awakening the Tenseigan. So Toneri has that Six Paths power as well and can harm Juubito, if the TSBs that show up behind him wasn't enough of a hint.

And he wins here. 
He's better than Juubito at TSBs, which is like the main thing Juubito's known for. 
He's stronger, since splitting a moon tends to be better than struggling to split a Susano'o sword from a non-god tier. 
He's more durable: compare the scratches he got from a BSM Rasengan to the basketball sized crater in Juubito's back from a weaker SM Rasengan.
And he's probably faster, given he was zipping across the surface of the moon while clashing against Naruto.

Toneri overpowers him the moment they have a meaningful clash.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 10, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Wouldn't Toneri having Truth Seeker orbs prove needing Rikudou Sage Mode is NOT the case?


Because thats not how it works

Follow along troll

If TSB is directly stated to only be attained through Rikudo Senjutsu and someone has a TSB...What does this mean?

That they have Rikudo Senjutsu

It isnt hard

This is like saying that Obito or Shisui or Sasuke not having Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi like Itachi does somehow means they cannot ever manifest Susanoo 

Their MS Jutsu are different, and as such their method of attaining Susanoo is different.

Same shit here

Toneri acquired Rikudo Senjutsu in a different manner than Madara and Obito and Naruto did. Through the Tenseigan.

Naruto was given the state from Hags Yang half, and Madara and Obito got it through the Juubi, and Toneri got it from the Tenseigan.

Get it yet troll?

Probably not

I mean this is a concept meant for 12 year olds

Way out of your wheelhouse to understand


MaruUchiha said:


> Says the dude that's about to cite and hide behind the databook


Its a canon published source genius 

I can literally go edit the wiki right now to say "MaruUchiha understands fucking nothing about this series" 

Is it then true?


MaruUchiha said:


> I knew you would use that weak copout where you discredit Wiki


Oh you mean that thing literally the entire internet does

You ever go to middle school language arts classes dude?

Youre not even allowed to fucking cite Wikipedia as a source because its garbage and unreliable 


MaruUchiha said:


> It's a meme because of Lewd Man accusing me of dupes genius


Its a meme because youre a garbage poster with laughable opinions on literally everything 


MaruUchiha said:


> i've posted in plenty of sections without getting "laughed out"


Must be why the OPM sections and DB sections werent having your shit 


MaruUchiha said:


> You need Hagoromo or the Bijuus for Rikudou Sage Mode!


No actually you dont this isnt even remotely fucking implied anywhere

You literally made this shit up

Heres the DB entry for Rikudo SM



> Ninjutsu, Senjutsu - Sage of Six Paths Mode
> No rank, no range, offensive, defensive, supplementary
> Users: Naruto Uzumaki
> 
> ...


The word "Biju" isnt even mentioned once

Entry for TSBs



> Ninjutsu - Truth-Seeking Balls
> No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive, supplementary
> 
> *The one who carries the truth-seeking black orbs will be granted the truth of all things!!*
> ...


Same fucking shit, no mention of Biju chakra

SO do tell

Whgere in the fuck are you getting that Rikudo Senjutsu is Biju related?

Cuz that is not implied by ANYTHING at all

And is disproven not only by Toneri, but also Hagoromo and Hamura themselves having it and all of them havent even seen a damn Biju...Hag and Ham had RSM before the Biju were even CREATED 


Again, you dont know what youre talking about.


MaruUchiha said:


> Tenseigan/TCM is a complete seperate powerup


Yes

And one that grants SP Senjutsu

Just like Hags Yang half does, and just like the Coffin Seal does, and just like Hamura and Hags method of attaining it off panel does.

There are multiple methods of attaining Rikudo Senjutsu

We saw at least fucking 3 of them in the canon manga


MaruUchiha said:


> Wow.. Tenseigan automatically grants Riludou Senjutsu


Kinda like literally every other fucking powerup thats granted RIkudo Senjutsu automatically granted Rikudo Senjutsu

Isnt that odd?

Its almost like its consistent or something 


MaruUchiha said:


> Hands down one of the worst claims i've heard in the NBD in a while.


You say this about literally everything in canon you dont like

Youre legit handwaving multiple canon citations to do it right now

No one cares about your shitty opinion Maru



MaruUchiha said:


> I was obviously talking about the other decendants


Dont care

What you said was dumb anyway


MaruUchiha said:


>


Not a retort


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## WorldsStrongest (May 10, 2020)

History lesson

Every time we do this thread Toneri dominates in everyones mind but Marus and like a few others





  (this one has a 3 to 1 poll with 40 voters)

 (so does this one)

Some people just dont fucking listen


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## Artistwannabe (May 10, 2020)

Toneri with his kaiju murks Juubito. TSB = RKD senjutsu.


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## Onda Vital (May 10, 2020)

Naruto defeated Toneri with BSM so it depends how strongt you think BSM Naruto was.

As for golden wheel it mostly has aoe feat so who knows if Juubito can block it with TSB.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 10, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> Toneri with his kaiju murks Juubito. TSB = RK senjutsu.


Shouldnt that be RKD?

You left out a syllable in your acronym cuz


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## Artistwannabe (May 10, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Shouldnt that be RKD?
> 
> You left out a syllable in your acronym cuz


Cuz I am retarded


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## WorldsStrongest (May 10, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> Cuz I am retarded


Nah you good fam


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## Tri (May 10, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> A fan made Wiki where they need source material to cite before it can even be approved

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

toneri stomps


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## MaruUchiha (May 10, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> History lesson
> 
> Every time we do this thread Toneri dominates in everyones mind but Marus and like a few others
> 
> ...


Another history lesson: The NBD general consensus has been habitually wrong for years now and is not a credible source


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## dergeist (May 10, 2020)

He doesn't, Toneri doesn't have RSM. Toneri has a chakra mode which allows him to form/carry TSBs and make more than 9 at that. 


I think it is the power of the Tenseigan that allows him to do that tbh. Somehow he gains mastery over the six elements and can fuse them. Oh and TSBs are ninjutsu, not Senjutsu (databook entry confirms that), so..

Reactions: Like 1


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## AnbuHokage63 (May 10, 2020)

If Base Naruto can oneshot Toneri then Juubito low diffs him.


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## T-Bag (May 10, 2020)

Juubi Obito rapes. wtf is this?

Who the fuck is toneri to a god like figure? fuck outta here lmao. All movie characters tend to LOOK VISUALLY more exotic than their manga counterparts because movies are designed that way, people go to watch strictly for ACTION... but at the end of the day he got trashed by naruto aalone and from a plot point of view he's hamura level at best. Narratively speaking Toneri is trash to a Juubi Jinchuriki. This is the power of toneri's better grandfather which he doesnt come close.


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## Shazam (May 10, 2020)

Siding with Juubito


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## sabre320 (May 10, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Siding with Juubito


Reasons? Toneri flatout eclipsed him in every category bar regen...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Siskebabas (May 10, 2020)

Im going with juubito also

Reactions: Like 3


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## Hi no Ishi (May 10, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> This sounds like fanfic. Show me decendant Ootsutsukis using Turth Seeker Orbs and Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.


I'm talking about Hamura and Hagaromo who both use truth seekers which requires six paths Senjutsu.


MaruUchiha said:


> didn't get amped by Hagoromo like Sasuke, he just has Tenseigan. Not comparable powerups. In that case can Nagato damage jins just because he has Rikudou chakra from Rinnegan then?


Tenseigan which gives him the six paths chakra needed for TSB.

And yes Nagato could if he wasn't an ant to them.


MaruUchiha said:


> So are you saying all decendants of Hagoromo and Hamura can automatically damage Juubi jins, or are you saying Nagato can damage Juubi jins because he has Hagoromo's chakra? Neither makes sense


The second one of course. It makes perfect sense and we see in panel that Sasuke can with just Hagaromo's chakra.


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## Ultrafragor (May 10, 2020)

Toneri shits on Juubito's fake-woke fandom


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## Hi no Ishi (May 10, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Wouldn't Toneri having Truth Seeker orbs prove needing Rikudou Sage Mode is NOT the case?


Rikudo Senjutsu does not necessarily mean you are in  of the Six Paths Mode. 

It is  for the TSB though.

Other modes like 6 use it.


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## dergeist (May 10, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Rikudo Senjutsu does not necessarily mean you are in  of the Six Paths Mode.
> 
> It is  for the TSB though.
> 
> Other modes like 6 use it.



Imagine believing one can have rokudo senjutsu, but not be in rokudo sage mode

Imagine believing TSBs are from Rokduo senjutsu, yet ignore the fact the databook lists them as just ninjutsu (not senjutsu)

Ah troll no shi, you don't fail to deliver


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## Hi no Ishi (May 10, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Imagine believing one can have rokudo senjutsu, but not be in rokudo sage mode
> 
> Imagine believing TSBs are from Rokduo senjutsu, yet ignore the fact the databook lists them as just ninjutsu (not senjutsu)
> 
> Ah troll no shi, you don't fail to deliver


Start with imagining that you can read and one day you might get there, little guy!



Scans >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your opinion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (May 10, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Start with imagining that you can read and one day you might get there, little guy!
> 
> 
> 
> Scans >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your opinion.



Trying to deflect, because the scans solod your ass 

Pity, they never confirmed any of your head canon interpretations 

Fact 1. Imagine saying somebody can have senjutsu but not be in sage mode 

Fact 2. Imagine claiming TSBs come from Rokudo senjutsu, yet they're not listed as senjutsu but as ninjutsu.

Fact 3. TSBs are composed of 6 nature releases, yet no senjutsu, yet you claim the above 

It takes some serious big brain power to come up with such delsuion, this is why Asspullnato fans are considered a joke.


Not the brightest spark are youck

Well that's another bubble burst Troll no shi, so I'm done small fry


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## Hi no Ishi (May 10, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Fact 1. Imagine saying somebody can have senjutsu but not be in sage mode


Every cursed seal user, Orochimaru, and EMS Sasuke all use Senjutsu in one way or another without using Sage Mode.

So that alone is dumb as hell.

But if you could read the scans, or have your guardian do so for you since letters seem to escape you.

Rikudo Sennin Modo is given by the Rikudo Sennin like it says.
 Not the mode that is clearly labeled as Madara/Obito's Rikudo Senjutsu that comes from Absorption of all the tailed beast : 6 Paths Coffin Seal.

They are two different things that give access to Rikudo Senjutsu.




dergeist said:


> Fact 2. Imagine claiming TSBs come from Rokudo senjutsu, yet they're not listed as senjutsu but as ninjutsu.
> 
> Fact 3. TSBs are composed of 6 nature releases, yet no senjutsu, yet you claim the above
> 
> It takes some serious big brain power to come up with such delsuion, this is why Asspullnato fans are considered a joke.


The very first line in the discription says that one needs Rikudo Senjutsu to wear them.

Get your head out of Madara's ass for 2 whole seconds, take a breath and learn to fucking read little guy!

At least try to pretend your not just biased and salty.

Now show up with some scans to back your nonsense, concede, or eat a dick. 

I care not which.

Reactions: Like 3


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## dergeist (May 10, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Every cursed seal user, Orochimaru, and EMS Sasuke all use Senjutsu in one way or another without using Sage Mode.
> 
> So that alone is dumb as hell.
> 
> ...



Imagine making up this rubbish and then thinking it's factually accurate. Imagine pretending that one who uses senjutsu isn't in sage mode

If only you'd pull your head out of your own asshole once in a while, it's clear the lack of oxygen hasn't done your rational faculty any good






> The very first line in the discription says that one needs Rikudo Senjutsu to wear them.
> 
> Get your head out of Madara's ass for 2 whole seconds, take a breath and learn to fucking read little guy!
> 
> ...



Imagine being unable to comprehend a basic scan and then claim *one needs rokudo senjutsu to use the TSBs*. What are they a necklace? You had better go back to school your comprehension is at kiddie level

I repeat imagine claiming rokudo senjutsu gives one TSBs, yet they're not senjutsu, but ninjutsu.


Come back when you can square those circles, small fry


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## Alita (May 10, 2020)

Toneri wins due to having far better feats and putting up a fight against a massively stronger version of Naruto then the one juubito fought.


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## Hi no Ishi (May 10, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Imagine making up this rubbish and then thinking it's factually accurate. Imagine pretending that one who uses senjutsu isn't in sage mode
> 
> If only you'd full your head out of your own asshole once in a while, it's clear the lack of oxygen hasn't done your rational faculty any good
> 
> ...


You haven't addressed anything I've said or posted which makes sense since that would require knowing how to read. 

Holla back when you read the manga.

Have a nice day!


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## MYGod000 (May 11, 2020)

This is a Tough one...I have to agree with one of the other Members in here...it depends on how powerful you think Base Naruto from the Last amping him fist with 9 tails Chakra. 

I think arguments can be made for Both sides, winning this fight. Generally i'll lean more towards Obito because He took a Fused BSM Naruto+CSM EMS Sasuke+ 9 others Shinobi being amp by 9tails Chakra and made 3 x stronger to defeat an Obito who wasn't giving him all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (May 11, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You haven't addressed anything I've said or posted which makes sense since that would require knowing how to read.
> 
> Holla back when you read the manga.
> 
> Have a nice day!



You're head canon was refuted by your own scans. And you've yet to rebuke the flaws in it (the points I raised). Feigning ignorance the go to move of troll no shi when he can't back up his claims.

Take some comprehension classes, and then come back with a substantive argument. One that isn't flawed from the get go.

Until then..


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## Kannon (May 11, 2020)

Could go either way, if not for the fact that it's not conclusively proven that Toneri has what it takes (Six Paths Power, Six Paths Senjutsu or senjutsu) to get past Juubi Jin's immunity to attacks not containing Six Paths Power, Six Paths senjutsu or senjutsu. 

*Toneri got his TSBs through TCM, which shows that RSM isn't the only way that you can get TSBs*. So it's hard to say for sure whether Toneri has Six Paths senjutsu or not.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 11, 2020)

Kannon said:


> *Toneri got his TSBs through TCM, which shows that RSM isn't the only way that you can get TSBs*. So it's hard to say for sure whether Toneri has Six Paths senjutsu or not.


No bud

Toneri got his Rikudo Senjutsu through TCM which granted him TSBs

It isnt hard to say whether or not Toneri has Rikudo Senjutsu because it is stated one can only possesses TSBs if they have Rikudo Senjutsu

Legit the first line of text in the things DB entry

This is like denying that a MS user has access to 3T Sharingan...

You literally cannot fucking have TSBs (MS in the analogy) without RSM (3T in the analogy)

How do people not get this shit


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## Kannon (May 11, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No bud
> 
> Toneri got his Rikudo Senjutsu through TCM which granted him TSBs
> 
> ...


That was not what was stated. What was stated is those who have Rikudo Senjutsu possess TSBs, not that
one can only possess TSBs if they have Rikudo Senjutsu.

What was shown in the Last is that users of TCM possess TSBs. 4th Databook only covers info up to the end of the 4th War. TCM only appeared in the Last. Therefore, info from the 4th Databook may not be complete. Which means that Rikudo Senjutsu may not be the only way to get TSBs (which wasn't even stated in the 4th Databook anyway).

The Last's lore added another way to get TSBs which was TCM. Until TCM and Rikudo Senjutsu is conclusively linked, it is an assumption to say that TCM definitely contains Rikudo Senjutsu.


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## MYGod000 (May 11, 2020)

Kannon said:


> That was not what was stated. What was stated is those who have Rikudo Senjutsu possess TSBs, not that
> one can only possess TSBs if they have Rikudo Senjutsu.



I wanted to say this...that Somewhere i heard that those TSB Toneri had wasn't really even TSB their was another name given to them and that they mimic TSB.

I forgot which site i saw This information on and have been looking for it for awhile again...but i had stumbled upon it once and never saw it again after that.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 11, 2020)

Kannon said:


> That was not what was stated


Thats exactly what was stated


Kannon said:


> What was stated is those who have Rikudo Senjutsu possess TSBs, not that
> one can only possess TSBs if they have Rikudo Senjutsu.


Having Rikudo Senjutsu is literally stated to be the one requirement of having TSBs

Its literally "Those who have this, get that"

Really not hard

The ability to manipulate all 5 natures at once with Yin-Yang release is also something exclusive to Rikudo Senjutsu users

Wanna know what TSBs are made of?

Guess

Fucking guess


Kannon said:


> What was shown in the Last is that users of TCM possess TSBs


Which means they grant RSM

As they arent mutually exclusive abilities and never have been and are directly stated to come as a set

Its also directly stated in the Six Paths Coffin Seal entry that Rikudo Senjutsu is accompanied by TSBs


Kannon said:


> 4th Databook only covers info up to the end of the 4th War. TCM only appeared in the Last. Therefore, info from the 4th Databook may not be complete. Which means that Rikudo Senjutsu may not be the only way to get TSBs.


RSM is legit stated to be the only method, and every user of TSBs in history is a user of RSM

The fact that "the guide isnt complete" doesnt fucking matter

We are told how all things in question function from a canon source and nothing at all implies its changed or functions any differently 

There is literally no fucking evidence for your argument that Toneri doesnt have RSM, meanwhile theres a direct DB statement as well as every series precedent set by TSBs that backs the notion that he does.

You cant just say "Oh well it might not be"

You have to give a fucking reason chump

Something aside from your own damn conjecture 


Kannon said:


> The Last's lore added another way to get TSBs which was TCM. Until TCM and Rikudo Senjutsu is conclusively linked, it is an assumption to say that TCM definitely contains Rikudo Senjutsu.


No

No it isnt

As they were already linked by having TSBs which are directly stated to be a direct result of Rikudo Senjutsu

In legit 3 separate fucking DB entries


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## WorldsStrongest (May 11, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> I wanted to say this...that Somewhere i heard that those TSB Toneri had wasn't really even TSB their was another name given to them and that they mimic TSB.


This is untrue

No such information is ever given


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## Artistwannabe (May 11, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> I wanted to say this...that Somewhere i heard that those TSB Toneri had wasn't really even TSB their was another name given to them and that they mimic TSB.
> 
> I forgot which site i saw This information on and have been looking for it for awhile again...but i had stumbled upon it once and never saw it again after that.


Sounds like bs to me.


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## Kannon (May 11, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats exactly what was stated
> 
> Having Rikudo Senjutsu is literally stated to be the one requirement of having TSBs.
> 
> ...


This is just your assumption. It was never stated that Rikudo Senjutsu was the "only" way of getting TSBs. What was shown, however, is that users of TCM get TSBs as well.

Whole problem with your argument is that you are assuming something that was never stated in the first place. Your whole argument was built on an assumption that was never explicitly stated.

"RSM is legit stated to be the only method, and every user of TSBs in history is a user of RSM". This is just your headcanon. RSM was never stated to be the only method, and it isn't conclusively proven that Toneri, who is a user of TSB, is a user of RSM.

Funny that you say that what I'm doing is conjecture when you assume things that were never explicitly stated.


MYGod000 said:


> I wanted to say this...that Somewhere i heard that those TSB Toneri had wasn't really even TSB their was another name given to them and that they mimic TSB.
> 
> I forgot which site i saw This information on and have been looking for it for awhile again...but i had stumbled upon it once and never saw it again after that.


I never heard of this before lol. From all existing sources, from what I know, Toneri has TSBs. But I would welcome proof that says otherwise. 

I actually think that it is quite possible that Toneri has Six Paths senjutsu tbh. But there is no conclusive proof currently that Six Paths senjutsu and TCM are linked.


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## Serene Grace (May 11, 2020)

Golden wheel one shots


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## Draco Bolton (May 11, 2020)

Juubito win.



me said:


> Juubito resists (Gudo Dama, endurance, regen) until he launch the Mugen Tsukiyomi.
> 
> Juubito win.





me said:


> Gudo Dama, endurance, regen, being a Juubi Jin.
> 
> It's not on the basis of his defeat against the alliance that you can claim that Juubito has bad stamina. Juubito was not defeated by the force of the blows. You think KyuubiSusano's slash really defeated him? He has Juubi in him, he's not a weakling. If he lost against Naruto and co, it's because he was psychologically weakened ( Nunoboko power depend from his mental state) and because Naruto had done the check with the Bijus (and on top of that, there was the tug-of-war with Full Kyuubi Alliance). I don't know where this cardboard resistor fantasy comes from.
> 
> ...



I'm open to everyone's opinions about Toneri>Juubito (I might even revise some of my opinions) so @Alita54  it's your time, the great moment to proves me your headcanon "BSM Naruto+EMS Sasuke>Juubito" Since I think Toneri>BSM Naruto+EMS Sasuke. So if you proves me your headcanon is true........ Maybe it's your time to shine.


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## Serene Grace (May 11, 2020)

dergeist said:


> He doesn't, Toneri doesn't have RSM. Toneri has a chakra mode which allows him to form/carry TSBs and make more than 9 at that.
> 
> 
> I think it is the power of the Tenseigan that allows him to do that tbh. Somehow he gains mastery over the six elements and can fuse them. Oh and TSBs are ninjutsu, not Senjutsu (databook entry confirms that), so..


You don’t believe the power of the tenseigan grants you Rikudo Senjutsu? I mean it’s not far fetched given the eyes that they belong to is blood relative of SoS6 

from what we’ve seen Toneri can also fly, which iirc is another features of Six paths senjutsu. So he either has something that mimics Six paths senjutsu, or he more than likely has it


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## Kannon (May 11, 2020)

Just read through the first page of this thread and it really cracked me up lol. The mental gymnastics needed to argue that Toneri has Six Paths Power is really funny.

Toneri being Hamura's descendant means he has Six Paths Power? So can it be argued that since Uchihas and Senjus are Hagoromo's descendants through his sons, they have Six Paths Power? Or can it be argued that since Hyugas are descendants of Hamura, they have Six Paths Power as well?

And where is the proof that Tenseigan grants you Six Paths Power lol? Were they ever linked somewhere or was it ever mentioned anywhere? If they were, tell me where lol. Because I never got the memo. Truly ludicrous

Borrowing words from another poster above, "Sounds like bs to me".


Cherry said:


> You don’t believe the power of the tenseigan grants you Rikudo Senjutsu? I mean it’s not far fetched given the eyes that they belong to is blood relative of SoS6
> 
> from what we’ve seen Toneri can also fly, which iirc is another features of Six paths senjutsu. So he either has something that mimics Six paths senjutsu, or he more than likely has it


Both aeroplanes and birds can fly. Are they similar?


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## Serene Grace (May 11, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Both aeroplanes and birds can fly. Are they similar?


Except we know Naruto can fly because of Rikudo senjutsu, so this doesn’t even make sense. Toneri has an ability that every single Rikudo senjutsu user has had, and was even stated in canon to only be capable of wielding them with Rikudo senjutsu. If anything you’re the one doing the mental gymnastics


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## Kannon (May 11, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Except we know Naruto can fly because of Rikudo senjutsu, so this doesn’t even make sense. Toneri has an ability that every single Rikudo senjutsu user has had, and was even stated in canon to only be capable of wielding them with Rikudo senjutsu. If anything you’re the one doing the mental gymnastics


Who's doing the mental gymnastics? Even in-verse, flying is not limited to Rikudo Senjutsu users. The fact Toneri can fly doesn't mean anything.

If you really want to talk about mental gymnastics, you should look at the first page. Several arguments there are just laughable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (May 11, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Who's doing the mental gymnastics? Even in-verse, flying is not limited to Rikudo Senjutsu users. The fact Toneri can fly doesn't mean anything.
> 
> If you really want to talk about mental gymnastics, you should look at the first page. Several arguments there are just laughable.





Dude you’re ignoring that Naruto was able to fly specifically because of Rikudo senjutsu, and coincidentally toneri can as well along with with having TSB’s that were specifically stated in canon to only be attainable through Rikudo senjutsu

I don’t know what else you want me say


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## Kannon (May 11, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Dude you’re ignoring that Naruto was able to fly specifically because of Rikudo senjutsu, and coincidentally toneri can as well along with with having TSB’s that were specifically stated in canon to only be attainable through Rikudo senjutsu
> 
> I don’t know what else you want me say


What I'm saying is that you can't extrapolate things just based on similar qualities. Easy enough to understand?

Edit: Otherwise known as "correlation does not necessarily imply causation".


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## uchihakil (May 11, 2020)

Backing juubito

Saying toneri is more durable than juubito cuz their feats against rasengan is ignoring context, juubito was WEAK to senjutsu chakra, toneri is not, and toneri does not use senjutsu based abilities. So he won't have it as easy as a character that uses pure senjutsu chakra.

Juubito blocks a tsb attack with tsb, even if he is cut in half, he regenerates (dude regenerated half his body after all).

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (May 11, 2020)

Cherry said:


> You don’t believe the power of the tenseigan grants you Rikudo Senjutsu? I mean it’s not far fetched given the eyes that they belong to is blood relative of SoS6
> 
> from what we’ve seen Toneri can also fly, which iirc is another features of Six paths senjutsu. So he either has something that mimics Six paths senjutsu, or he more than likely has it



Naruto flies because of RSM, heck even Hinata had flight. It was last minute flying to hold hands with Naruto. And see certainly doesn't have six paths senjutsu. I think that power (Toneri's) may be from the Tenseigan vessel or just a movie thing. On this point of abilties Toneri ends up making his own TSBs, something none of RSM users could do. Also the fact TSBs aren't actually senjutsu or composed of it doesn't help the cause either.

The arguments being made for RSM are meh:/


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## MaruUchiha (May 11, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No bud
> 
> Toneri got his Rikudo Senjutsu through TCM which granted him TSBs
> 
> ...


What you're doing is like saying DMS Kakashi has EMS because he used Perfect Susanoo.. No, DMS Kakashi proves you dont need EMS to use Perfect Susanoo even tho that's stated. You guys already lost this debate judging from the last 2 pages of this thread, so at this point anyone still claiming Toneri has senjutsu is stonewalling and in denial


Cherry said:


> Golden wheel one shots


Toneri would need senjutsu for that, and its ridiculous to claim you automatically get Rikudou Sage Mode from Tenseigan. Its a complete different powerup that you need Hagoromo, the Juubi, or 9 Bijuus for


Kannon said:


> Just read through the first page of this thread and it really cracked me up lol. The mental gymnastics needed to argue that Toneri has Six Paths Power is really funny.
> 
> Toneri being Hamura's descendant means he has Six Paths Power? So can it be argued that since Uchihas and Senjus are Hagoromo's descendants through his sons, they have Six Paths Power? Or can it be argued that since Hyugas are descendants of Hamura, they have Six Paths Power as well?
> 
> ...


Yeah nonsense like this is rampant in the NBD. They'd rather die on a hill than just admit Rikudou Sage Mode is a different powerup than Tenseigan


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## Hi no Ishi (May 11, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Toneri would need senjutsu for that, and its ridiculous to claim you automatically get Rikudou Sage Mode from Tenseigan. Its a complete different powerup that you need Hagoromo, the Juubi, or 9 Bijuus for


It tells us directly that Rikudo Senjutsu is how one gets TSB.  Please try actually addressing this.

If someone has 4, it doesn't matter how. 3+1, 2+2, 1+3, all of it leads to the same place.


MaruUchiha said:


> Yeah nonsense like this is rampant in the NBD. They'd rather die on a hill than just admit Rikudou Sage Mode is a different powerup than


You mean like people who have convinced themselves that 6PCS is RSM even though it says that literally no where and calls them two different modes with two different origins?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kannon (May 11, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Dude you’re ignoring that Naruto was able to fly specifically because of Rikudo senjutsu, and coincidentally toneri can as well along with with having* TSB’s that were specifically stated in canon to only be attainable through Rikudo senjutsu*
> 
> I don’t know what else you want me say


Just noticed that I didn't address this. This was not what was stated. What was stated was that TSBs were obtainable through Rikudo senjutsu, not that TSBs were *ONLY *obtainable through Rikudo senjutsu.


Hi no Ishi said:


> It tells us directly that Rikudo Senjutsu is how one gets TSB.  Please try actually addressing this.
> 
> If someone has 4, it doesn't matter how. 3+1, 2+2, 1+3, all of it leads to the same place.
> 
> You mean like people who have convinced themselves that 6PCS is RSM even though it says that literally no where and calls them two different modes with two different origins?


Your analogy that if someone has 4, it doesn't matter whether it is 3+1, 2+2 or 1+3 because all of it leads to the same place is problematic because you are already assuming that Rikudo senjutsu is a necessary component for TSBs, which may not even be the case.

TSBs aren't classified in the databook as senjutsu, which seems to suggest that senjutsu at least isn't a necessary component for TSBs


MaruUchiha said:


> Yeah nonsense like this is rampant in the NBD. They'd rather die on a hill than just admit Rikudou Sage Mode is a different powerup than Tenseigan


Eh, I can see both possibilities. I just think it is ridiculous for Toneri having Six Paths senjutsu to be presented as a fact when it is in fact just a possibiilty. It's even more ridiculous for it to be presented as a fact and not as a possibility in this particular match-up because so much depends on this. It's probably one of the most important points in this match-up.


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## Alita (May 11, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Juubito win.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again never said that genius. But the fact they could give him a fight means he is no match for toneri who fought a massively stronger version of Naruto.


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## Subtle (May 11, 2020)

_Juubito wins,

Obito's focus was split in the war as he needed to keep the rinnegan under his control,

Obito's statement " even this one eye's chakra and ocular powers are so strong I started losing myself."

If you take into account Obito's statement about the rinnegan, Obito was fighting Naruto, Sasuke, edo hokage and SA while simultaneously making sure he doesn't lose control of the rinnegan, I don't see how he loses.

Regards
Subtle _


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## Alita (May 11, 2020)

Even if we pretend like Toneri doesn't have senjutsu he still kills juubito with the golden sword since juubito has no durability feats to suggest he can tank a moon buster. His whole body would be destroyed leaving nothing for him to regenerate from. Even gai without senjutsu nearly killed someone stronger than juubito.

Reactions: Like 1


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## T-Bag (May 11, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Even if we pretend like Toneri doesn't have senjutsu he still kills juubito with the golden sword since juubito has no durability feats to suggest he can tank a moon buster. His whole body would be destroyed leaving nothing for him to regenerate from. Even gai without senjutsu nearly killed someone stronger than juubito.


how can you assume he'll hit obito? what if he misses?

and don't compare anyone to gai in taijutsu. No one can do to Madara what Gai did.


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## Hi no Ishi (May 11, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Your analogy that if someone has 4, it doesn't matter whether it is 3+1, 2+2 or 1+3 because all of it leads to the same place is problematic because you are already assuming that Rikudo senjutsu is a necessary component for TSBs, which may not even be the case.


Literally no other way is ever mentioned and both sons of Kaguya had them naturally. There is no reason to think its something different that has never been mentioned. 

The dude awakens the eyes of one of Kaguya's kids and gets TSB and flight.


Kannon said:


> TSBs aren't classified in the databook as senjutsu, which seems to suggest that senjutsu at least isn't a necessary component for TSBs


One gets the ability to use them from awakening Rikudo Senjutsu as stated. It doesn't mean that thats what they are made of just that that's what it takes to get them. 

We are already told, even before the Last, of two different Modes that give them to you because of Rikudo Senjutsu 6PCS and RSM, but suddenly they are supposed to have to explain all over again that the same abilities from the same base source after telling us and showing us how they show up?

That makes so sense.


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## AfroUchiha (May 11, 2020)

Can Truth Seeking Orbs even damage Truth Seeking Orbs or do they just cancel each other out?


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## Alita (May 11, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> how can you assume he'll hit obito? what if he misses?
> 
> and don't compare anyone to gai in taijutsu. No one can do to Madara what Gai did.



Because EMS sauce and BSM Naruto before getting god tier powerups could react to attacks from him and track his speed. The Naruto that fought toneri in the last is massively faster and stronger and toneri could keep up with him just fine. 

8th gate gai is one of the weakest god/demi god tiers at this point so no.


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## Onda Vital (May 11, 2020)

How are people so sure golden wheel can kill Juubito? I mean Juubito tanked quad juubidama with TSB. It isn't so far fetched that he can survive GW.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Literally no other way is ever mentioned and both sons of Kaguya had them naturally. There is no reason to think its something different that has never been mentioned.
> 
> The dude awakens the eyes of one of Kaguya's kids and gets TSB and flight.
> 
> ...


It was shown in the Last that TCM gives you TSBs as well. There were never any explicit statements and never any showings that conclusively linked TCM to Rikudo senjutsu. These are all facts.

Like I said, you're assuming that Rikudo senjutsu is something necessary for TSBs when that may not even be the case.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perfect Susano (May 12, 2020)

Make this Mindless Obito and he still takes this easily. Golden Wheel gets plowed through with Ten Tails' chakra arms.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Onda Vital said:


> How are people so sure golden wheel can kill Juubito? I mean Juubito tanked quad juubidama with TSB. It isn't so far fetched that he can survive GW.



He blocked them with his TSB shield he didn't tank them directly. Each of the juubidama's is just continent level. Toneri's sword is at least moon level. If you take into account fan made calcs it's small planet level.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Onda Vital said:


> How are people so sure golden wheel can kill Juubito? I mean Juubito tanked quad juubidama with TSB. It isn't so far fetched that he can survive GW.


I would just ignore this guy if I were you. It's evident that he doesn't know much about Naruto's lore.


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Kannon said:


> I would just ignore this guy if I were you. It's evident that he doesn't know much about Naruto's lore.



Nah that would be you.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Nah that would be you.


Someone doesn't even know the reason why Gai could damage Juubi Jin Madara was because he was using pure taijutsu. When I looked at that post I just burst out into laughter lol. Couldn't even be bothered to reply to it.


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Someone doesn't even know the reason why Gai could damage Juubi Jin Madara was because he was using pure taijutsu. When I looked at that post I just burst out into laughter lol. Couldn't even be bothered to reply to it.



Point is senjutsu is not the only way to harm juubi jins. Toneri flat out has better feats than juubito and can kill him with the sword since he has never withstood anything that powerful and there would be nothing left for him to regen from.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Point is senjutsu is not the only way to harm juubi jins. Toneri flat out has better feats than juubito and can kill him with the sword since he has never withstood anything that powerful and there would be nothing left for him to regen from.


The sword isn't taijutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Kannon said:


> The sword isn't taijutsu.



Good thing it doesn't need to be.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Good thing it doesn't need to be.


Unfortunately, it isn't anything containing Six Paths Power, Six Paths senjutsu or senjutsu as well, which is needed to get through Juubi Jin's immunity. Go read up on Juubi Jins again. It's really obvious you don't really know much about Naruto's lore. Maybe you should just stay in the OBD lol.

Edit: This is all according to your logic, by the way.


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Unfortunately, it isn't anything containing Six Paths Power, Six Paths senjutsu or senjutsu as well, which is needed to get through Juubi Jin's immunity. Go read up on Juubi Jins again. It's really obvious you don't really know much about Naruto's lore. Maybe you should just stay in the OBD lol.



Yes toneri does have senjutsu as has already been explained here. But more importantly he has better feats than juubito and the raw destructive power to eradicate him completely. Go rewatch the last again since you apparently don't remember it very well.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Yes toneri does have senjutsu as has already been explained here. But more importantly he has better feats than juubito and the raw destructive power to eradicate him completely. Go rewatch the last again since you apparently don't remember it very well.


Can't even be bothered to reply seriously when the post below shows you don't know much about Naruto's lore.


Alita54 said:


> Even if we pretend like Toneri doesn't have senjutsu he still kills juubito with the golden sword since juubito has no durability feats to suggest he can tank a moon buster. His whole body would be destroyed leaving nothing for him to regenerate from. Even gai without senjutsu nearly killed someone stronger than juubito.


Laughable. Demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of Naruto's lore.

Edit: Really, you should just stay in the OBD. It's just embarrassing when laughable posts like this are posted. I feel embarrassed for you myself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Can't even be bothered to reply seriously when the post below shows you don't know much about Naruto's lore.
> 
> Laughable. Demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of Naruto's lore.



So you think juubito can tank moon level or far higher attacks if they don't have senjutsu? 

Yeah I can't take you seriously either when you wank juubito this much. Toneri has the senjutsu regardless so he is killing juubito either way.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> So you think juubito can tank moon level or far higher attacks if they don't have senjutsu?
> 
> Yeah I can't take you seriously either when you wank juubito this much. Toneri has the senjutsu regardless so he is killing juubito either way.


This is the NBD, not the OBD. This, sadly for you, means that in-verse lore applies here. Get used to it or get out of the NBD.


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Kannon said:


> This is the NBD, not the OBD. This, sadly for you, means that in-verse lore applies here. Get used to it or get out of the NBD.



Or your just wanking.  Just cause EMS Sauce and BM Naruto needed senjutsu to do anything to juubito doesn't mean massively stronger characters do as well. Sasuke cut juudara clean in half with a sword and stabbed him with said sword via his swapping ability. If that can can work Toneri's golden sword can as well. Plus he has senjutsu so the point is moot anyway.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Or your just wanking.  Just cause EMS Sauce and BM Naruto needed senjutsu to do anything to juubito doesn't mean massively stronger characters do as well. Sasuke cut juudara clean in half with a sword and stabbed him with said sword via his swapping ability. If that can can work Toneri's golden sword can as well. Plus he has senjutsu so the point is moot anyway.


You yourself argued that even if Toneri didn't have senjutsu, his GWRE would still damage Juubito, not me. Don't blame me for your own idiocy.

"Just cause EMS Sauce and BM Naruto needed senjutsu to do anything to juubito doesn't mean massively stronger characters do as well." Stop embarrasssing yourself lol. This just makes you look more like a fool. Like I said, if you don't want to have to care about in-verse lore, stay in the OBD. Don't come to the NBD and make a fool of yourself.


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Kannon said:


> You yourself argued that even if Toneri didn't have senjutsu, his GWRE would still damage Juubito, not me. Don't blame me for your own idiocy.
> 
> "Just cause EMS Sauce and BM Naruto needed senjutsu to do anything to juubito doesn't mean massively stronger characters do as well." Stop embarrasssing yourself lol. This just makes you look more like a fool. Like I said, if you don't want to have to care about in-verse lore, stay in the OBD. Don't come to the NBD and make a fool of yourself.



I've been in this section awhile and your the only one here I've seen who seems to think juubito can tank moon/planet level attacks or greater just cause they don't have senjutsu. 

Your the only one making a fool out of yourself.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> I've been in this section awhile and your the only one here I've seen who seems to think juubito can tank moon/planet level attacks or greater just cause they don't have senjutsu.
> 
> Your the only one making a fool out of yourself.


Someone who ignores in-verse lore, in the NBD, tells me that I'm making a fool of myself? Ludicrous. Your posts are what's really embarrassing.

Edit: MaruUchiha, maybe you should just close this thread lol. It seems like people arguing for Toneri have gone mad.


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Someone who ignores in-verse lore, in the NBD, tells me that I'm making a fool of myself? Ludicrous. Your posts are what's really embarrassing.
> 
> Edit: MaruUchiha, maybe you should just close this thread lol. It seems like people arguing for Toneri have gone mad.



As has already been explained he has senjutsu and the destructive feats to wreck juubito. He wins. 

You can keep believing otherwise tho. Don't care to partake in this anymore so I agree that someone should just close this thread.


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## Kannon (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> As has already been explained he has senjutsu and the destructive feats to wreck juubito. He wins.
> 
> You can keep believing otherwise tho. Don't care to partake in this anymore so I agree that someone should just close this thread.


Like I said, don't blame me for your own idiocy. You yourself started arguing that even if Toneri didn't have senjutsu, his GWRE would still damage Juubito, not me.

I was just following your logic. Don't blame me if your logic is shit.

Edit: Someone, I think it was WS, said that there would be some real headassery in this thread. Now I've seen it. Lol


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## Yumi Zoro (May 12, 2020)

AnbuHokage63 said:


> If Base Naruto can oneshot Toneri then Juubito low diffs him.



This IS wrong. It's like saying If Goku can One shot perfect Cell then Freazer could do the same.


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## Onda Vital (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Each of the juubidama's is just continent level.


Moon is much smaller. Earth continent would be much like third of the Moon at least. Now multiply that by 4.

And it is not like Toneri have blown up whole Moon to pieces. He cut it in half. Quad juubidama may not cut Moon but it would destroy large part of it.


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## AnbuHokage63 (May 12, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> This IS wrong. It's like saying If Goku can One shot perfect Cell then Freazer could do the same.


Current Goku and Frieza can both one shot Cell in their base


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## Yumi Zoro (May 12, 2020)

AnbuHokage63 said:


> Current Goku and Frieza can both one shot Cell in their base


Freazer<<<<<<<<Cell<<< << <EOS Goku in DBZ


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## Yumi Zoro (May 12, 2020)

Also for Madara and Obito to be stronger than Toneri, Kinshiki or Momoshiki they will have to Come back as ever an ally or villain and receive more asspull power UP.


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## AnbuHokage63 (May 12, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Also for Madara and Obito to be stronger than Toneri, Kinshiki or Momoshiki they will have to Come back as ever an ally or villain and receive more asspull power UP.


*Also for Madara and Obito to be stronger than Toneri, Kinshiki or Momoshiki they will have to Come back as ever an ally or villain and receive more asspull power UP.*
1 Rinnegan and Shinju JJ Madara>Fused Momoshiki>> JJ Obito > Momoshiki ~ Kinshiki > Toneri


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## MYGod000 (May 12, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is untrue
> 
> No such information is ever given




Just saying what  I saw.  If i can find the information again i'll link it to you.  it had said they mimic TSB but are not really TSB.


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## Yumi Zoro (May 12, 2020)

AnbuHokage63 said:


> *Also for Madara and Obito to be stronger than Toneri, Kinshiki or Momoshiki they will have to Come back as ever an ally or villain and receive more asspull power UP.*
> 1 Rinnegan and Shinju JJ Madara>Fused Momoshiki>> JJ Obito > Momoshiki ~ Kinshiki > Toneri



That is your headcanon.
Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Toneri>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Madara.


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## AnbuHokage63 (May 12, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> That is your headcanon.
> Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Toneri>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Madara.


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Onda Vital said:


> Moon is much smaller. Earth continent would be much like third of the Moon at least. Now multiply that by 4.
> 
> And it is not like Toneri have blown up whole Moon to pieces. He cut it in half. Quad juubidama may not cut Moon but it would destroy large part of it.



There is actually a bigger gap between continent and moon level then one might think. In energy yields continent level begins at like 1.2 petatons while moon level starts at 29.6 exatons. That's a difference over 10,000 times. Cutting the moon and dislodging it as I said before is still moon level. Toneri's attack is also a more concentrated cutting attack over a juubidama and would be more lethal as a result due to smaller surface area and whatnot.


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> That is your headcanon.
> Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Toneri>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Madara.



I would say the ranking would be more like.....

Transformed momo >>> TCM Toneri >/= Double Rinnegan Juudara > Kinshiki/Base Momo >> Juubito

Base momo would only have a shot at the above juudara if he uses something momo can absorb. Toneri vs juudara could go either way but I would favor toneri since the only thing juudara has to threaten him with is IT. Juudara is just to versatile for kinshiki imo. Juubito I just think is slower than everyone above him and likely wouldn't even get the chance to do much of anything considering EMS sauce and BSM naruto could track his speed even before god tier boosts.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yumi Zoro (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> I would say the ranking would be more like.....
> 
> Transformed momo >>> TCM Toneri >/= Double Rinnegan Juudara > Kinshiki/Base Momo >> Juubito
> 
> Base momo would only have a shot at the above juudara if he uses something momo can absorb. Toneri vs juudara could go either way but I would favor toneri since the only thing juudara has to threaten him with is IT. Juudara is just to versatile for kinshiki imo. Juubito I just think is slower than everyone above him and likely wouldn't even get the chance to do much of anything considering EMS sauce and BSM naruto could track his speed even before god tier boosts.



I wanted to have more fun with him 

but thanks to your ranking it's over.


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## Foxfoxal (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> I would say the ranking would be more like.....
> 
> *Transformed momo >>> TCM Toneri >/= Double Rinnegan Juudara > Kinshiki/Base Momo >> Juubito*
> 
> Base momo would only have a shot at the above juudara if he uses something momo can absorb. Toneri vs juudara could go either way but I would favor toneri since the only thing juudara has to threaten him with is IT. Juudara is just to versatile for kinshiki imo. Juubito I just think is slower than everyone above him and likely wouldn't even get the chance to do much of anything considering EMS sauce and BSM naruto could track his speed even before god tier boosts.



Lmao what?

Juubito weaker than base Momo is a joke but then I kept reading and it got funnier and funnier.

The juubito that speedblitzed Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato and Hirusen is weaker than the weaklings Momo and Kinshiki that had problems with Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara and Darui.


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## Alita (May 12, 2020)

Foxfoxal said:


> Lmao what?
> 
> Juubito weaker than base Momo is a joke but then I kept reading and it got funnier and funnier.
> 
> The juubito that speedblitzed Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato and Hirusen is weaker than the weaklings Momo and Kinshiki that had problems with Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara and Darui.



Gaara has pretty consistently been holding his own against otsutsuki level foes in the Boruto anime. He is clearly ALOT stronger than his war arc self. All of the new kage should be as well. Kinshiki pressured adult rinnegan sasuke who can easily blitz any of the characters you mentioned. 

Momo can absorb juubito's bomb and send it back at him many times stronger and wipe him out.


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## Onda Vital (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> In energy yields continent level begins at like 1.2 petatons while moon level starts at 29.6 exatons.


I don't know where are you getting this numbers.


Alita54 said:


> Toneri's attack is also a more concentrated cutting attack over a juubidama and would be more lethal as a result due to smaller surface area and whatnot.


That is question of potency. But we don't have anything to meassure potency of either juubidama or GW.
All we know is that juubidama was tanked by TSB while GW was overpowered by Naruto punch.


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## Hi no Ishi (May 12, 2020)

Kannon said:


> It was shown in the Last that TCM gives you TSBs as well. There were never any explicit statements and never any showings that conclusively linked TCM to Rikudo senjutsu. These are all facts.
> 
> Like I said, you're assuming that Rikudo senjutsu is something necessary for TSBs when that may not even be the case.


That's not accurate.

The Facts are

1. Using the Six Paths Power, Rikudo Senjutsu,  comes with TSB is what they tell us here. On the Six Paths Coffin Seal page.


Just flat out "so it is accompanied by the same truth seeker orbs. That's what their Rikudo Senjutsu does. No other source is stated. So we know exactly how one gets them.


2. The Truthseeker Orbs page tells us directly who can use these things.

Those who blossomed the Six Paths Senjutsu can wear these black orbs that comprise all Chakra Nature's, as well as Yin and Yang.
Again, having Rikudo Senjutsu is the only way stated to gain them.

3. Madara, a 6P Coffin Seal user, had no idea why Naruto was stronger 

Until he sees Naruto manifest Truthseeker Orbs at which point he immediately recognizes it as Rikudo Senjutsu.


He doesn't say they _might_ come from RS or that it was _likely_, no.
Just the very sight of them tells him _exactly how_ he has them with _no_ uncertainty, whatsoever.

The manga and DB both agree that RS = TSB and that RS is certainly what you have when you have TSB. There is no other source hinted at even though people in multiple modes (Sage of the Six Paths Mode/ Rikudo Sennin Modo and 6 Paths Ten Tails Coffin Seal /Rikudo Jubi Kyūin) can obtain them. 

The only given reason that one would have them is Rikudo Senjutsu, regardless of the source. 

Inb4 "Instead of looking as the scan of what Madara can see which is the TSB, let's assume that he is using unmentioned Periscope Vision to see Naruto's back!" 

No, that's silly.

4. Then we have the Tenseigan, an eye that gives you Hamura's power that he himself possessed. A dude who got his chakra from the same place as his famous brother and mother who also have this same chakra that can effect each other, and gives the flight and TSB they all can use. Who we know cast Six Paths .



This Eye gives the powers of a dude who had the same family power source and displays the same powers they all share and TSB that only has one source as far as Madara and the Databook pages are concerned, Rikudo Senjutsu.

Those are actual the facts.

In no way shape or form does it make more sense to say "MAYBE we should ASSUME that TSB are caused by another unnamed and unmentioned power than the one they tell us TSB comes with over and over again with so Obito can have a chance! Maybe this power from the same family that gives the same exact TSB is from some mysterious miracle!" Rather than to go with the source we are told causes them.


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## MYGod000 (May 12, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> I would say the ranking would be more like.....
> 
> Transformed momo >>> TCM Toneri >/= Double Rinnegan Juudara > Kinshiki/Base Momo >> Juubito
> 
> Base momo would only have a shot at the above juudara if he uses something momo can absorb. Toneri vs juudara could go either way but I would favor toneri since the only thing juudara has to threaten him with is IT. Juudara is just to versatile for kinshiki imo. Juubito I just think is slower than everyone above him and likely wouldn't even get the chance to do much of anything considering EMS sauce and BSM naruto could track his speed even before god tier boosts.



So...you're just going to Ignore *Light fang* which can cut TSB Like a Hot Knife cutting butter?


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Toneri takes the biggest fucking dump down Obito's throat and anyone who argues otherwise is a braindead mongoloid

That's really all there is to it


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> That's not accurate.
> 
> The Facts are
> 
> ...


The Last showed that TCM was a way to gain TSBs.

The problem with this whole thing is that 4th DB only covers up to the end of the 4th War. The Last's lore isn't included.

Also. it was never stated that Rikudo Senjutsu was the* ONLY *way to gain TSBs. That's your assumption and headcanon. What was stated, was that by gaining Rikudo Senjutsu, you gained TSBs.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Toneri takes the biggest fucking dump down Obito's throat and anyone who argues otherwise is a braindead mongoloid
> 
> That's really all there is to it


Not if Juubi Jins simply hardcounter Toneri.


Alita54 said:


> Gaara has pretty consistently been holding his own against otsutsuki level foes in the Boruto anime. He is clearly ALOT stronger than his war arc self. All of the new kage should be as well. Kinshiki pressured adult rinnegan sasuke who can easily blitz any of the characters you mentioned.
> 
> Momo can absorb juubito's bomb and send it back at him many times stronger and wipe him out.


Oh yes, the spiel about Boruto Gokage being god tier again. How could I have forgotten? Lol


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## uchihakil (May 13, 2020)

@Hi no Ishi Said it all tbh regarding toneri having rikudou senjutsu good job man.

@Alita54 You keep labeling a moonslicing attack as a moon buster, its not exactly the same bruh, slicing the moon in half will take less energy than outright busting it.

Juubito tanked  quad juubi dama with his tsb (the blast being contained also increases its potency). Juubito tanked 4 continent busting level attack, a continent +++ blast in a contained space will easily yield more energy than an attack that sliced the moon in half. Quad juubi dama is closer to moon level than GWR.

2. Cutting a juubi jin in half is useless, we saw how useless it was against juudara and juubito himself, juubito regenerated from half his body being destroyed by tsb. Madara regenerated half his body when sasuke sliced him. So i don't know why you think juubito will fail to regenerate here. When he has on panel feats of regenerating from TSB.

3. Both characters have rikudou senjutsu, 1 is a watered down version of hagoromo and the other is a watered down version of hamura. I personally don't think it will be an easy fight based on just simple logic, they should be around the same.

4. As i said in an earlier post, juubito was weak to senjutsu, you know what weakness is right?? He easily gets affected by little amounts of senjutsu enhanced attacks. So i dont understand why people ignore that and start lowballing juubito with that.

5. It basically took yin and yang kurama with sage mode (basically 100% kurama) plus EMS sasuke enhanced with curse mode (senjutsu). And thousands of other characters that could teleport (tobirama) and have senjutsu (hashi) to beat juubito. And even then naruto had to use TNJ.

- toneri was beaten by TL KCSM Naruto who was not using BM and seperated himself from kurama meaning he wasn't even at 100%.

I literally don't see how anyone ignores all this and say toneri stomps juubito.


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> @Hi no Ishi Said it all tbh regarding toneri having rikudou senjutsu good job man.


It's just a convenient assumption really. No explicit statements were ever made linking Tenseigan and Rikudo Senjutsu together.


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## uchihakil (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> It's just a convenient assumption really. No explicit statements were ever made linking Tenseigan and Rikudo Senjutsu together.



Well tbh, his argument is more convincing to me (i always thought toneri did have RSM though, but he hit the nail on the head with that), hags having RSM and hamura having RSM both having descendants that actually use their powers is a convincing argument. 

It was stated that RSM can be gained through different modes ten tails coffin seal, rikudou SM, so TCM being another form of attaining RSM is not a far fetch when the original user of TCM had RSM. So i don't see why another user won't. The evidence is just not compelling enough to assume otherwise IMHO.


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> Well tbh, his argument is more convincing to me (i always thought toneri did have RSM though, but he hit the nail on the head with that), hags having RSM and hamura having RSM both having descendants that actually use their powers is a convincing argument.
> 
> It was stated that RSM can be gained through different modes ten tails coffin seal, rikudou SM, so TCM being another form of attaining RSM is not a far fetch when the original user of TCM had RSM. So i don't see why another user won't. The evidence is just not compelling enough to assume otherwise IMHO.


Of course it's not far-fetched.

The problem is that this whole match-up could be decided by whether Toneri has Rikudo senjutsu or not. So the standards of proof should be higher.

I just don't think it is enough to say that since it is not far-fetched, then it should be accepted. At least not for this match-up.


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## uchihakil (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Of course it's not far-fetched.
> 
> The problem is that this whole match-up could be decided by whether Toneri has Rikudo senjutsu or not. So the standards of proof should be higher.
> 
> I just don't think it is enough to say that since it is not far-fetched, then it should be accepted. At least not for this match-up.



Lmao what?? So having the same power as your opponent automatically becomes a deciding factor?? Juubito has Rikudou senjutsu himself. Its not like this is base obito we are talking about.


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> Lmao what?? So having the same power as your opponent automatically becomes a deciding factor?? Juubito has Rikudou senjutsu himself. Its not like this is base obito we are talking about.


Juubi Jins are immune to attacks (besides taijutsu) not containing Six Paths Power, Six Paths senjutsu, or senjutsu. You mean you didn't know?

Edit: That literally means if Toneri doesn't possess any of these things, all his attacks besides taijutsu can't even damage Juubito.

Why do you think people above are arguing so heatedly about this? Because they know this as well (well except for someone who is just ignoring the lore).

If you still don't understand, think of it as an enemy boss in a game who can only be damaged by certain kinds of attacks. For example, they can only be damaged by physical attacks or magical attacks.


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## uchihakil (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Juubi Jins are immune to attacks (besides taijutsu) not containing Six Paths Power, Six Paths senjutsu, or senjutsu. You mean you didn't know?
> 
> Edit: That literally means if Toneri doesn't possess any of these things, all his attacks besides taijutsu can't even damage Juubito.
> 
> Why do you think everyone above is arguing so heatedly about this? Because they know this as well (well except for someone who is just ignoring the lore).



I don't want to dive deep into that and reawaken a dying fruitless argument, but i feel like god tiers in narutoverse can hurt one other with all of these powers (SM, Rikudou chakra, RSM) otherwise sasuke having rikudou chakra to face juubi jins will be useless. 

Anyways, all this does is reset the grounds to neutral setting. Both combatants can use Rikudou senjutsu, but who is stronger? Feats are what matter here and 1 was punched out of his mode by a punch inferior to a direct hit from EE. Juubi jins do not get punched out of their modes.


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## MaruUchiha (May 13, 2020)

I'm surprised you're still wasting time on them @Kannon, they've already died on the hill

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> I don't want to dive deep into that and reawaken a dying fruitless argument, but i feel like god tiers in narutoverse can hurt one other with all of these powers (SM, Rikudou chakra, RSM) otherwise sasuke having rikudou chakra to face juubi jins will be useless.
> 
> Anyways, all this does is reset the grounds to neutral setting. Both combatants can use Rikudou senjutsu, but who is stronger? Feats are what matter here and 1 was punched out of his mode by a punch inferior to a direct hit from EE. Juubi jins do not get punched out of their modes.


But this match-up is about Toneri and Juubito right? So debating about whether Toneri has Rikudo Senjutsu is very important. If he doesn't have it, and because there is currently no proof of him having Six Paths Power and senjutsu, he simply can't damage Juubito using anything besides taijutsu.

Which means Juubito would probably low-diff Toneri at most.

That's why this thing is so important.


MaruUchiha said:


> I'm surprised you're still wasting time on them @Kannon, they've already died on the hill


I just simply find it ridiculous that people are treating Toneri having Rikudo Senjutsu as a fact when it is clearly just a possibility. There aren't any explicit statements linking them together as of yet. 

One of the few times I've seen people treating assumptions and headcanon as dearly-held facts.


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## uchihakil (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> But this match-up is about Toneri and Juubito right? So debating about whether Toneri has Rikudo Senjutsu is very important. If he doesn't have it, and because there is currently no proof of him having Six Paths Power and senjutsu, he simply can't damage Juubito using anything besides taijutsu.
> 
> Which means Juubito would probably low-diff Toneri at most.
> 
> That's why this thing is so important.



There is compelling evidence that he does though, but anyways if you don't think he does then i guess thats your opinion. Majority think he does and as i said more arguments were made.

I do understand your points (you and maru) but its the bigger assumption, and seeing this from different perspectives like;

> Every other tsb user in the series uses RSM
> Toneri being an incarnation of hamura who uses RSM
> Madara's statement that hi no shi pointed out
> databook stating TSB is a product of RSM

All lines up and makes more sense. The more compelling evidence is toneri has RSM, but lets just agree to disagree.


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> There is compelling evidence that he does though, but anyways if you don't think he does then i guess thats your opinion. Majority think he does and as i said more arguments were made.
> 
> I do unddrstand your points (you and maru) but its the bigger assumption, and seeing this from different perspectives like;
> 
> ...


Sure, but just because evidence for Toneri having RSM could be more compelling doesn't mean that it can be treated like a fact.

In fact, it shouldn't be even used in the NBD match-ups as well, especially when the whole match-up could very well depend on it, until it's conclusively proven.


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## uchihakil (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Sure, but just because evidence for Toneri having RSM could be more compelling doesn't mean that it can be treated like a fact.
> 
> In fact, it shouldn't be even used in the NBD match-ups as well, especially when the whole match-up could very well depend on it, until it's conclusively proven.



Lol some see it as fact, majority agree on him having RSM, (up until recently) i never doubted that toneri didn't have RSM. 

So yea in matchups he'll definitely have it, its not gonna be ignored cuz the minority believe otherwise. And said minority can't outright prove otherwise. Just cuz of a design that was missing.

Kishi himself admitted that he forgot to give himawari byakugan, and had her later on awaken the byakugan.


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> Lol some see it as fact, majority agree on him having RSM, (up until recently) i never doubted that toneri didn't have RSM.
> 
> So yea in matchups he'll definitely have it, its not gonna be ignored cuz the minority believe otherwise. And said minority can't outright prove otherwise. Just cuz of a design that was missing.
> 
> Kishi himself admitted that he forgot to give himawari byakugan, and had her later on awaken the byakugan.


That's what I find ridiculous. Why treat it like a fact and use it in match-ups (especially one that could very well depend on it), just because the majority thinks that Toneri has RSM, although there are no explicit statements yet? It's simply ridiculous.

Edit: In much the same way, if Kishi never admitted that he forgot to give Himawari Byakugan and never had her awaken the Byakugan later on, I wouldn't say that he definitely forgot and he intended for her to have it, so she has it. The most I would say was that he *probably *forgot and he *probably* intended for her to have it. But I still wouldn't use this in match-ups to argue that Himawari has Byakugan. That would be bullcrap.


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## MarF (May 13, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> Juubito tanked quad juubi dama with his tsb (the blast being contained also increases its potency). Juubito tanked 4 continent busting level attack, a continent +++ blast in a contained space will easily yield more energy than an attack that sliced the moon in half. Quad juubi dama is closer to moon level than GWR.



Cutting the moon in half is only a part of the feat. After GWRE disappears we see the moon move even further apart. Toneri had to overpower the moons GBE for that to happen. That's a ~30 exaton feat just by eyeballing it. Even ignoring the GBE part and just calcing the partially hollow moon halves moving apart gave results in the exatons.

A single V3 Juubidama sits at 20 petatons, you'd need 50 of them to just reach 1 exaton.

Toneri moving the moon also came out at 4 zettatons.


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## uchihakil (May 13, 2020)

MarF said:


> Cutting the moon in half is only a part of the feat. After GWRE disappears we see the moon move even further apart. Toneri had to overpower the moons GBE for that to happen. That's a ~30 exaton feat just by eyeballing it. Even ignoring the GBE part and just calcing the partially hollow moon halves moving apart gave results in the exatons.
> 
> A single V3 Juubidama sits at 20 petatons, you'd need 50 of them to just reach 1 exaton.
> 
> Toneri moving the moon also came out at 4 zettatons.



I think you mean V2, v3 juubi dama was waay bigger than v2 bijuu dama, like 50x bigger eye balling it.

Even if GWRE is the stronger technique, Juubito has shown the ability to regenerate half his body from a tsb attack, still useless in the face of juubi jin regeneration.

Toneri was punched out of his mode with a punch i don't see putting down juubito.


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## Hi no Ishi (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> The Last showed that TCM was a way to gain TSBs.
> 
> The problem with this whole thing is that 4th DB only covers up to the end of the 4th War. The Last's lore isn't included.
> 
> Also. it was never stated that Rikudo Senjutsu was the* ONLY *way to gain TSBs. That's your assumption and headcanon. What was stated, was that by gaining Rikudo Senjutsu, you gained TSBs.


Those are not mutually exclusive lol.  TCM having TSB doesn't mean it gives them to you in a different manner. That's not said or implied. We already see that having a different mode doesn't change the source of the TSB so that's not an argument.

What is is that TSB come from Rikudo Senjutsu and until a source contradicts that directly, it is literally _just your assumption _that they can even come from anywhere else. Especially when that's not ever said or implied.

Your saying it wasn't stated to be the only method makes no sense. It is the only method given ever in any media. Why would they explain that again?

 It's like saying Hashirama's Sage Mode might not use Natural energy because it's not stated to and then trying to argue based off of that when it flies in the face of basic reading comprehension. 

The manga and DB agreed with me while all you have is headcannon about another possibility source that was never named or stated.
It's baseless speculation to say there could be another source the _same power_ when none is ever given. 



uchihakil said:


> @Hi no Ishi Said it all tbh regarding toneri having rikudou senjutsu good job man.


Thanks, bro.

I don't get how people can look directly at multiple sources telling them where a jutsu comes from and think it comes from somewhere else with no reasoning behind it besides that it would change a meaningless match in the NBD.

But I still am fond of and respect most of these guys so I try to get through.


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Those are not mutually exclusive lol.  TCM having TSB doesn't mean it gives them to you in a different manner. That's not said or implied. We already see that having a different mode doesn't change the source of the TSB so that's not an argument.
> 
> What is is that TSB come from Rikudo Senjutsu and until a source contradicts that directly, it is literally _just your assumption _that they can even come from anywhere else. Especially when that's not ever said or implied.
> 
> ...


The thing is that we don't know whether it is mutually exclusive or not. It was never stated. To say otherwise would be speculation.

The whole problem with this argument is that you all wrongly assume that 4th DB stated that Rikudo Senjutsu was the *ONLY *way to gain TSBs. This was never stated.

What's baseless speculation is this assumption that you all have that Rikudo Senjutsu is the *ONLY *way to get TSBs when this was never stated.

The Last showed that Toneri had TSBs through TCM. My point is that we don't know whether the TCM gives TSBs in a different manner, or the same, because this was never explained or shown. Saying otherwise is speculation. It could have given TSBs in a different manner, or the same. Point is we don't know. Everything else is speculation.


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## Hi no Ishi (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> The thing is that we don't know whether it is mutually exclusive or not. It was never stated. To say otherwise would be speculation.
> 
> The whole problem with this argument is that you all wrongly assume that 4th DB stated that Rikudo Senjutsu was the *ONLY *way to gain TSBs. This was never stated.
> 
> ...


So would it be reasonable to assume that Hashirama's Sage Mode doesn't use Natural energy because it's never said? Or are we readers supposed to know this by now because that's what we are told powers Sage Mode?

Reading Comprehension or Speculation? Which one do we go with?


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## uchihakil (May 13, 2020)

I agree with what hi no ishi said


Eventhough we actually don't agree on the same outcome @Hi no Ishi Lol


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> I agree with what hi no ishi said
> 
> 
> Eventhough we actually don't agree on the same outcome @Hi no Ishi Lol


Maybe because you all think i'm actually arguing that Toneri doesn't have Six Paths senjutsu, while actually all I'm saying is that we can't be sure either way?


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## Hi no Ishi (May 13, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> I agree with what hi no ishi said
> 
> 
> Eventhough we actually don't agree on the same outcome @Hi no Ishi Lol


We don't have to. One can argue about who is stronger. That's reasonable.

It's making up a separate power source for the same jutsu just so one doesn't have to ever get to the actual particulars of the match that bugs me.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> Maybe because you all think i'm actually arguing that Toneri doesn't have Six Paths senjutsu, while actually all I'm saying is that we can't be sure either way?


Except that whole "cant be sure" makes no sense when we have a character on panel see TSB and know its from Rikudo Senjutsu. The characters in the story in question even know where they come from for a fact.

Unless another source is given there is no reason to ASSUME that there is one. Especially for the same jutsu. 

That's just an unreasonable assumption.


----------



## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> So would it be reasonable to assume that Hashirama's Sage Mode doesn't use Natural energy because it's never said? Or are we readers supposed to know this by now because that's what we are told powers Sage Mode?
> 
> Reading Comprehension or Speculation? Which one do we go with?


First real argument that is actually responding to what I have said lol. Finally you decided to stop stonewalling and get to the main point.

But see, the thing is the two cases are different. Toneri's TCM is a totally new mode as compared to what other users of Rikudo Senjutsu have used, while Hashirama's Sage Mode is still Sage Mode, which Naruto and Kabuto use. That's why we can extrapolate similarities, because we know it is the same mode. While Toneri's case is different. Real crux of my argument, if you realise.


Hi no Ishi said:


> We don't have to. One can argue about who is stronger. That's reasonable.
> 
> It's making up a separate power source for the same jutsu just so one doesn't have to ever get to the actual particulars of the match that bugs me.





Hi no Ishi said:


> Except that whole "cant be sure" makes no sense when we have a character on panel see TSB and know its from Rikudo Senjutsu. The characters in the story in question even know where they come from for a fact.
> 
> Unless another source is given there is no reason to ASSUME that there is one. Especially for the same jutsu.
> 
> That's just an unreasonable assumption.


See above.

Edit: The Last also happened after the events of the Naruto manga. New lore is being introduced all the time. So we can't just assume that the Last's lore completely fits the Naruto manga and the 4th DB as well.

But it's good though. You finally said something that was relevant to the crux of my argument instead of stonewalling like you have done for the past few pages.


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## Hi no Ishi (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> First real argument that is actually responding to what I have said lol. Finally you decided to stop stonewalling and get to the main point.
> 
> But see, the thing is the two cases are different. Toneri 's TCM is a totally new mode as compared to what other users of Rikudo Senjutsu have used, while Hashirama's Sage Mode is still Sage Mode, which Naruto and Kabuto use. That's why we can extrapolate similarities, because we know it is the same mode. While Toneri's case is different. Real crux of my argument, if you realise.
> .


No one but you is stonewalling, buddy.

First you were pretending that it doesn't say that they are from Rikudo Senjutsu when it does.

 Once you realized The Manga and DB say it's from Rikudo Senjutsu, now you're whole argument became "But it might not be though!" Even though that's not stated or implied anywhere.

That's called baseless speculation.

Now.

How do you know it's the same Mode for Hashirama when it looks slightly different? Are you saying that minor differences don't change where an ability comes from?

I mean we have already proven what Mode you use RS in is irrelevant, you still get TSB. So obviously the mode being different isn't actually an argument either right?


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> No one but you is stonewalling, buddy.
> 
> First you were pretending that it doesn't say that they are from Rikudo Senjutsu when it does.
> 
> ...


That's what I was saying all the time. Imagine attacking my reading comprehension when you don't even realise this. Go read the past few pages again. I can quote some of my own posts for you as well.


Kannon said:


> I just simply find it ridiculous that people are treating Toneri having Rikudo Senjutsu as a fact when it is clearly just a possibility. There aren't any explicit statements linking them together as of yet.
> 
> One of the few times I've seen people treating assumptions and headcanon as dearly-held facts.


Fail in reading comprehension lol. And this is from the current page.

Because Hashirama's mode was stated to be Sage Mode? Same name. Toneri's mode is called Tenseigan Chakra Mode, which has never been seen before the Last. These are all facts, right? Is there some problem with your comprehension of things or something? Lol

Circular logic. You're already assuming that TCM contains Rikudo senjutsu in your arguments.

Edit: At least you finally got to the crux of my arguments though. Much better than the last few pages. Keep going. Don't revert back to the rubbish from the last few pages again.

More posts that show that what I was actually saying was that "It might not be though!" (in your words)


Kannon said:


> Sure, but just because evidence for Toneri having RSM could be more compelling doesn't mean that it can be treated like a fact.
> 
> In fact, it shouldn't be even used in the NBD match-ups as well, especially when the whole match-up could very well depend on it, until it's conclusively proven.





Kannon said:


> Of course it's not far-fetched.
> 
> The problem is that this whole match-up could be decided by whether Toneri has Rikudo senjutsu or not. So the standards of proof should be higher.
> 
> I just don't think it is enough to say that since it is not far-fetched, then it should be accepted. At least not for this match-up.





Kannon said:


> Just noticed that I didn't address this. This was not what was stated. What was stated was that TSBs were obtainable through Rikudo senjutsu, not that TSBs were *ONLY *obtainable through Rikudo senjutsu.
> 
> Your analogy that if someone has 4, it doesn't matter whether it is 3+1, 2+2 or 1+3 because all of it leads to the same place is problematic because you are already assuming that Rikudo senjutsu is a necessary component for TSBs, which may not even be the case.
> 
> ...


Enough?


----------



## Hi no Ishi (May 13, 2020)

Kannon said:


> That's what I was saying all the time. Imagine attacking my reading comprehension when you don't even realise this. Go read the past few pages again. I can quote some of my own posts for you as well.
> 
> Fail in reading comprehension lol. And this is from the current page.
> 
> ...


Lol I wasn't attacking your reading comprehension I was counting on it.

Sorry if that somehow wasn't clear to you.

The same comprehension that is telling you that it's obvious that Hashirama's Sage Mode works like every other one and is fueled the same way because it's Sage Mode.

They don't explain over and over again every time someone had a slightly different one. 

The same way that multiple sources saying that TSB and Rikudo Senjutsu go hand in hand doesn't need to be re established over and over for no reason. 

Saying that the same jutsu might suddenly work differently is speculation when that's never shown or stated or even something that has precedents in the manga.

So again, do you go with your own comprehension that the same stuff (TSB, Sage Mode etc) does not need to be re established over and over every time it's used by someone else?


Or the speculation that it might now might not work how its stated to work with no mention or explanation of that happening?


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## Kannon (May 13, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Lol I wasn't attacking your reading comprehension I was counting on it.
> 
> Sorry if that somehow wasn't clear to you.
> 
> ...


Admit it, your reading comprehension sucks. You said that I changed my argument, when "It might not be though!" (in your words) was always what I was saying. My literal first post in this thread was this


Kannon said:


> Could go either way, if not for the fact that it's not conclusively proven that Toneri has what it takes (Six Paths Power, Six Paths Senjutsu or senjutsu) to get past Juubi Jin's immunity to attacks not containing Six Paths Power, Six Paths senjutsu or senjutsu.
> 
> *Toneri got his TSBs through TCM, which shows that RSM isn't the only way that you can get TSBs*. So it's hard to say for sure whether Toneri has Six Paths senjutsu or not.


"So it's hard to say for sure whether Toneri has Six Paths senjutsu or not." This quite obviously (maybe not for you, since your reading comprehension sucks) means that "It might not be though!".

Now.

I'm going to repeat myself again, since you seem to have ignored my reply to the Hashirama analogy, which is quite relevant to what I'm trying to say.


Kannon said:


> Because Hashirama's mode was stated to be Sage Mode? Same name. Toneri's mode is called Tenseigan Chakra Mode, which has never been seen before the Last. These are all facts, right? Is there some problem with your comprehension of things or something? Lol


Either rebut this properly or sod off.


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## MaruUchiha (May 13, 2020)

@Hi no Ishi it's shown for every Rikudou Sage Mode user they needed Hagoromo, the Juubi, or the 9 Bijuus to gain that mode. Toneri had none of the 3, how would he possibly have Rikudou Sage Mode? And your Hamura chakra scapegoat makes no sense because Nagato has Hagoromo's chakra and doesn't have Rikudou Sage Mode


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## Soldierofficial (May 13, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> @Hi no Ishi it's shown for every Rikudou Sage Mode user they needed Hagoromo, the Juubi, or the 9 Bijuus to gain that mode.



Thats why there are multiple characters who got it without any of that? Kappa


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## MaruUchiha (May 13, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


> Thats why there are multiple characters who got it without any of that? Kappa


Who else besides Toneri? (Who obviously doesn't have Rikudou Sage Mode or senjutsu in general)


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## Soldierofficial (May 13, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Who else besides Toneri?



Kaguya, Hagoromo and Hamura.



> (Who obviously doesn't have Rikudou Sage Mode or senjutsu in general)


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## MaruUchiha (May 13, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


> Kaguya, Hagoromo and Hamura.


Kaguya never even had Truth Seeker Orbs, Hagoromo is basically the source of Rikudou Sage Mode, and Hamura had Truth Seeker orbs from TCM like Toneri and actually had Rikudou Sage Mode unlike Toneri


Soldierofficial said:


>


Sorry i'm not subscribing to nonsense like Toneri having senjutsu just because "He can fly and has Truth Seeker orbs ".. Do Mu and Onoki have Rikudou Sage Mode too becasue they can fly and use and incomplete version of Truth Seeker orbs like Toneri? It was said Rikudou Sage Mode users can use Truth Seeker orbs. Not that Truth Seeker orbs need Rikudou Sage Mode. All it is is all ninjutsu elements combined. Senjutsu isn't even needed let alone Rikudou Sage Mode


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## Soldierofficial (May 13, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Kaguya never even had Truth Seeker Orbs,



Thats why she almost killed Team 7 using one? 



> Hagoromo is basically the source of Rikudou Sage Mode,



Based on nothing.



> and Hamura had Truth Seeker orbs from TCM like Toneri and actually had Rikudou Sage Mode unlike Toneri



Hamura did not have a Tenseigan in the Kaguya fight.



> Sorry i'm not subscribing to nonsense like Toneri having senjutsu just because "He can fly and has Truth Seeker orbs ".. Do Mu and Onoki have Rikudou Sage Mode too becasue they can fly and use and incomplete version of Truth Seeker orbs like Toneri? It was said Rikudou Sage Mode users can use Truth Seeker orbs. Not that Truth Seeker orbs need Rikudou Sage Mode. All it is is all ninjutsu elements combined. Senjutsu isn't even needed let alone Rikudou Sage Mode



Onoki cannot use TSBs as only Rikudo Senjutsu can use.


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## MaruUchiha (May 13, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


> Thats why she almost killed Team 7 using one?


1. You mean where she turned into a Truth Seeker orb out of her control? Not exactly the same as having control of Truth Seeker orbs on your back like Rikudou Sage Mode

2. Kaguya doesn't even have Sage Mode in general, so wouldn't this once again prove you don't need Rikudou Sage Mode for Truth Seeker Orbs? We clearly must have 2 different ideas of what Rikudou Senjutsu is

3. Why are we comparing Toneri to Kaguya??


Soldierofficial said:


> Based on nothing.





Soldierofficial said:


> Hamura did not have a Tenseigan in the Kaguya fight.





Soldierofficial said:


> Onoki cannot use TSBs as only Rikudo Senjutsu can use.



Like Toneri's Truth Seeker orbs Particle Style is just lacking a few elements conpared to Rikudou Sage Mode's Truth Seeker orbs. Does this mean Onoki has Rikudou Sage Mode since he can fly and has incomplete Truth Seekers like Toneri?


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## Soldierofficial (May 13, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> 1. You mean where she turned into a Truth Seeker orb out of her control? Not exactly the same as having control of Truth Seeker orbs on your back like Rikudou Sage Mode



How is it possible that Kaguya (a Juubi Jinchuriki) does not have Rikudo Senjutsu when the only reason Madara and Obito have it is because they are JJs? 



>



You understand that Kaguya had it before Hagoromo was born, right? 



>



Hamura obtained the Tenseigan on the moon. 



> Like Toneri's Truth Seeker orbs Particle Style is just lacking a few elements conpared to Rikudou Sage Mode's Truth Seeker orbs. Does this mean Onoki has Rikudou Sage Mode since he can fly and has incomplete Truth Seekers like Toneri?



Onoki cannot use TSBs while Toneri can, stop spreading nonsense.


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## MaruUchiha (May 13, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


> How is it possible that Kaguya (a Juubi Jinchuriki) does not have Rikudo Senjutsu when the only reason Madara and Obito have it is because they are JJs?
> 
> 
> 
> You understand that Kaguya had it before Hagoromo was born, right?


Just what do you think Rikudou Sage Mode is? Even if Kaguya automatically has it, which i don't deny is possible, like I said wtf does this have to do with Toneri??


Soldierofficial said:


> Hamura obtained the Tenseigan on the moon.




Based on what Lewd Man?


Soldierofficial said:


> Onoki cannot use TSBs while Toneri can, stop spreading nonsense.


Toneri can use Truth Seeker orbs that are lacking Sage Mode, Bijuus, or Hagoromo like the real deal. Particle Style is lacking those plus lightning, water, and Yin/Yang. Basically Particle Style is just as far off from TCM Truther Seekers as TCM Truther Seekers are to RSM Truth Seekers. I guess I can claim Onoki has Rikudou senjutsu now since he can fly and has a downgraded version of Truth Seekers


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## Soldierofficial (May 13, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Just what do you think Rikudou Sage Mode is? Even if Kaguya automatically has it, which i don't deny is possible, like I said wtf does this have to do with Toneri??



That you don't need Hagoromo or the Bijuu/Juubi to have Rikudo Senjutsu when Kaguya had it since before all that. 


> Based on what Lewd Man?



Based on the fact that in The Last movie it was stated that Hamura awakening the Tenseigan as an old man shortly before his death while on the moon. 



> Toneri can use Truth Seeker orbs that are lacking Sage Mode, Bijuus, or Hagoromo like the real deal. Particle Style is lacking those plus lightning, water, and Yin/Yang. Basically Particle Style is just as far off from TCM Truther Seekers as TCM Truther Seekers are to RSM Truth Seekers. I guess I can claim Onoki has Rikudou senjutsu now since he can fly and has a downgraded version of Truth Seekers



Stop spreading nonsense. 

Theres no difference between Toneri's TSBs and Obito's TSBs, your headcanon is ridiculous. 

Theres only one difference, that Toneri is stronger and has a much larger amount of TSBs.


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## Alita (May 13, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> So...you're just going to Ignore *Light fang* which can cut TSB Like a Hot Knife cutting butter?



Just cause it can cut through a tsb rod from Naruto doesn't mean it can cut through the much bigger and visibly/featwise more powerful Golden sword from toneri.......


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## Alita (May 13, 2020)

Onda Vital said:


> I don't know where are you getting this numbers.





Scroll down to the continent level section. It begins at 1.33 petatons. Moon is at 29.6 exatons. That is a huge difference.


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## Onda Vital (May 13, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Scroll down to the continent level section. It begins at 1.33 petatons. Moon is at 29.6 exatons. That is a huge difference.


Well I don't know how they got that numbers so I quess...
Tho I didn't see number for Juubidama and there are multiple numbers for each size.

But I also got these numbers:

KN4 Naruto's Bijuudama: 15 kilotons (Naruto)
Gai's Morning Peacock: 26 kilotons (Naruto)
Bijuudamas 4-8: 4 gigatons (Naruto)
Pain's Chibaku Tensei: 7.9 gigatons (Naruto)

Which are kind of weird so I am not sure about those calcs. 

But looking at picture of juubidama it seems smaller than continent level so I quess GW is bigger.


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## MYGod000 (May 14, 2020)

I'm going to say this it fair to Say Toneri has Sage of Six path Chakra, since he is  a descendant of Hamura who is the Brother of Hagoromo. However, I don't think Toneri has Six path Senjutsu, Because Hagoromo had that from mastering Sage mode, Naruto gained that From Mastering Sage mode.


Sasuke even those he also had Chakra From Hagoromo he didn't have Six path Senjutsu, But he did have Sage of Six path Chakra. 


Now, about the TSB  i'm going to be Objective here...and say we all might have to concede and just accept that TCM  is another Way to Gain Six path Senjutsu. it doesn't really make sense but hey we can't ignore eye test.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 14, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Scroll down to the continent level section. It begins at 1.33 petatons. Moon is at 29.6 exatons. That is a huge difference.



Bruh I swear Jūbidama (the one v2 fired at the Alliance) was like low petatons, maybe 20ish IIRC

Meaning Kinrin Tensei Baku is 10,000 times stronger or thereabouts

So even if you scaled up *Link Removed* x1000, it's still _vastly_ weaker than KTB


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## MYGod000 (May 14, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Just cause it can cut through a tsb rod from Naruto doesn't mean it can cut through the much bigger and visibly/featwise more powerful Golden sword from toneri.......




it doesn't work like that.  TSB are TSB it doesn't matter how big they are they are still the same as anyone else TSB. the only thing you can argue is Kaguya had a Bigger one....but you would be ignoring the fact that Both Madara and Obito can manipulate the Size the TSB as well as Kaguya.


Toneri most powerful Attack is the one where he Sapped all of Naruto power and nuked him with his own power.

We know Naruto>Toneri

incomplete 2nd Form Juubi Normal Juubi Dama is around the same size as the attack Toneri did to Naruto that blow a hole in Naruto chest.


The incomplete Skinny Juubi in his 2nd form was stated to be storing Chakra, Juubi can literally get as powerful as it wants by Just storing Chakra from the planet that is exactly want the Databooks says about the Juubi being able to take chakra from planets and then destroy them with it. 


 Keep in Mind this Juubi doesn't even have nearly as Much Power as the one Madara had. This Juubi only has 7.2 tailed Beast  because he only took a Sliver of Chakra from the 8 and 9 tails.



that is from the Juubi in itself 3rd Form their is a massive Difference in Size power compared to his 2nd form.


Obito can literally just summon the Final form of the Juubi which is stated to be a God and in the Boruto Manga that Juubi can destroy planets, as well as in the Databook. 






the final form Juubi can spam multiple Super Juubi Dama casually.  the Juubi would literally obliterate the Moon.


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## MYGod000 (May 14, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Bruh I swear Jūbidama (the one v2 fired at the Alliance) was like low petatons, maybe 20ish IIRC
> 
> Meaning Kinrin Tensei Baku is 10,000 times stronger or thereabouts
> 
> So even if you scaled up *Link Removed* x1000, it's still _vastly_ weaker than KTB







Like I said The the Databooks supports the Juubi power being planet level, Hagoromo in the last Naruto Novel supports it as well when he said The Juubi has immeasurable chakra and is a danger to the World.  Boruto Manga supports it as well that the Original Otsutsuki use the Juubi's to be evolve, then they have the Juubi destroy the planet. 

What is consistent here is that the Juubi is planet destroyer.  Toneri isn't even close to that level, he needed Naruto+Cluster of Byakugan+His own power just to get around to Hamura power. 

Juubi would destroy the moon.


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## MarF (May 14, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Bruh I swear Jūbidama (the one v2 fired at the Alliance) was like low petatons, maybe 20ish IIRC
> 
> Meaning Kinrin Tensei Baku is 10,000 times stronger or thereabouts
> 
> So even if you scaled up *Link Removed* x1000, it's still _vastly_ weaker than KTB



I'm fairly sure you're thinking of the V3 Juubidama that Minato ported away. That one sits at 20 petatons, which i think was based on it's shockwave.

The coneshaped Juubidama that were used to destroy the shinobi alliance HQ, was 86 teratons if i remember it correctly.

I'm currently phone posting from work so i can't check it or post panels.


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## Alita (May 14, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Bruh I swear Jūbidama (the one v2 fired at the Alliance) was like low petatons, maybe 20ish IIRC
> 
> Meaning Kinrin Tensei Baku is 10,000 times stronger or thereabouts
> 
> So even if you scaled up *Link Removed* x1000, it's still _vastly_ weaker than KTB



Yep. Stage 2 juubi's bomb was put at 20 petatons. Toneri's moon moving was put at 4.1 zettatons and that was a casual as fuck feat from him. The difference between them is godly. Even juubi jin madara's multi chibaku tensei was no where close to that.


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## Alita (May 14, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> it doesn't work like that.  TSB are TSB it doesn't matter how big they are they are still the same as anyone else TSB. the only thing you can argue is Kaguya had a Bigger one....but you would be ignoring the fact that Both Madara and Obito can manipulate the Size the TSB as well as Kaguya.
> 
> 
> Toneri most powerful Attack is the one where he Sapped all of Naruto power and nuked him with his own power.
> ...



Accept Toneri and kaguya's TSBs have flat out better feats then anything we have seen from juudara or juubito. Or are you really gonna argue light fang can cancel out Kaguya's ETSB too?


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## Alita (May 14, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Like I said The the Databooks supports the Juubi power being planet level, Hagoromo in the last Naruto Novel supports it as well when he said The Juubi has immeasurable chakra and is a danger to the World.  Boruto Manga supports it as well that the Original Otsutsuki use the Juubi's to be evolve, then they have the Juubi destroy the planet.
> 
> What is consistent here is that the Juubi is planet destroyer.  Toneri isn't even close to that level, he needed Naruto+Cluster of Byakugan+His own power just to get around to Hamura power.
> 
> Juubi would destroy the moon.



Manga > Databook in regards to canon. We have seen nothing from War arc juubi that puts him anywhere near moon level let alone fucking planet level. We only accept statements and info from the databook as long as the manga does contradict it. And that isn't the case here.

The prime juubi/kaguya that fought hagomoro and hamura tho I would agree is easily above moon level but not war arc juubi.


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## Trojan (May 14, 2020)

Toneri drops the moon on Obito's head and call it a day


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Accept Toneri and kaguya's TSBs have flat out better feats then anything we have seen from juudara or juubito. Or are you really gonna argue light fang can cancel out Kaguya's ETSB too?





the only Feat Toneri TSB have that is better is the fact that he can make many. If you are implying that Juubi Obito and Madara can't do something as simple as that...then you also agree that Hagoromo can't as well as Hamura who have not shown said abilities, and we know both of them are light- years more powerful than Toneri.

in the Recent Boruto Manga it stated The Juubi's are indeed planet destroyers.  it doesn't contradict the manga at all, because the Manga verbatim says the Juubi takes chakra from the planet; creates it chakra fruit then the planet dies later even the toad told Hagoromo that if he didn't stop this thing The planet was going to die. 

in the recent manga it stated the Otsutsuki use the Ten tails as utensils  to destroy planets.  so, that exposition dump fall in line with what was already said about the Ten tails just in more detail about the Juubi and Otsutsuki's relationship.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Manga > Databook in regards to canon. We have seen nothing from War arc juubi that puts him anywhere near moon level let alone fucking planet level. We only accept statements and info from the databook as long as the manga does contradict it. And that isn't the case here.
> 
> The prime juubi/kaguya that fought hagomoro and hamura tho I would agree is easily above moon level but not war arc juubi.


the War arc Juubi is more powerful than the Juubi in the past.


the Juubi was only missing 50% of the 9 tails. Which the God tree Gained  back when he Absorbed BSM Naruto+BM Minato. 









The God Tree Had Absorbed All of BSM Naruto's Chakra to the point he literally almost died.  Moreover, Even BM Minato stated the God Tree had Sucked up his Chakra. 

Let not pretend here...when the God tree itself had Absorbed over a significant More Chakra than the 50% of the 9 tails it was missing. 

also, you saying we don't have feats for the juubi that put him on these level I'm saying. well, that only applies to Obito's Juubi which is significantly weaker  than the Juubi Madara had. 


 You also...failed to acknowledge that Obito for most of that was holding back the Juubi's powers  because he wanted to save as much of it's power as possible to activate I.T



The powers that you did see wasn't the Juubi's full powers.  Like I said we have 4 sources Hagoromo, The Databooks, even statements from the 9 tails and statements from Boruto manga that the Juubi is in fact planet level and planet destroyer.

It doesn't matter what a Holding back Juubi did in the war, because even while not going all out  a normal Juubi Dama was easily Country level; that was from the incomplete 2nd form Skinny  version of the Juubi before it started storing more chakra.

somewhere the Tenpchii was calc at large continental level of energy to produce.  It literally produced  5 Large Tornado's, Flash flood, and Tsunami's. 

 Super Juubi Dama was felt from all the way out to the middle of an ocean on the battle field. 


This is from a Juubi that is missing 8 and 9 tails.  We can argue this all day long...but Hagoromo has no reason to lie or exaggerate the Juubi power he fought it for months.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> How does Toneri damage Juubito wothout senjutsu?
> 
> vs
> 
> ...


Put Madara final form and it is still one shot for toneri!


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## Raiken (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Put Madara final form and it is still one shot for toneri!


As if you think Toneri beats Prime Madara... 

Toneri arguably has a shot against Juubito, but I'd personally back Juubito.

Saying he beats Prime Madara is fantasy of the highest order.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiken (May 15, 2020)

Come on guys it's simple enough to understand.

*Initial-Juudara > Juubito > Toneri > DRG SM Madara*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> As if you think Toneri beats Prime Madara...
> 
> Toneri arguably has a shot against Juubito, but I'd personally back Juubito.
> 
> Saying he beats Prime Madara is fantasy of the highest order.


Yeah Because Madara was not one shot By black Zetsu,

And last I checked cut by Sasuke.


O yeah and Toneri cut the moon in two.

Feats >>>>> opinions.


----------



## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Yeah Because Madara was not one shot By black Zetsu,
> 
> And last I checked cut by Sasuke.
> 
> ...





That was plot about the Zetsu things.


That Sword slice was from Enhanced Chidori Sword, which didn nothing because Madara can regenerate and is immortal. Toneri would have died from that sword attack BTW.





okay, and that attack is absorbed instantly by the Rinnegan...so I don't see the point in Mentioning that. 

Obito has the Rinnegan here...That blade toneri used to cut the moon is a Jutsu...do you not know Rinnegan can absorb all Jutsu based attacks and chakra?


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> That was plot about the Zetsu things.
> 
> 
> That Sword slice was from Enhanced Chidori Sword, which didn nothing because Madara can regenerate and is immortal. Toneri would have died from that sword attack BTW.
> ...


When did a Rinnegan ever absorb an attack of that nature?
Do you even know what that attack is?


It is based on the truth-seeking orbs that was never absorbed by anything.

Nice try.

I am amused by you guys, I stopped reading the manga or discussing it a long time ago and I still don't forget as much as you guys do and you do this shit daily!

Next, you will tell  me that the Rinnegan absorbs also this:


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> When did a Rinnegan ever absorbed an attack of that nature?
> Do you even know what that attack is?
> 
> 
> ...




Well, TSB are ninjutsu based attack with all Chakra Natures.   If it was based off the TSB then it would have liked like this...





 Naruto was easily able to break through Toneri's attack with just Chakra.


That looks nothing like TSB to me.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

ALso FFS I am sure not going to explain why splitting the moon Shits on Quad shit.

FFS basic physics.

Not that continental shit ~ moon split again.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Well, TSB are ninjutsu based attack with all Chakra Natures.   If it was based off the TSB then it would have liked like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't really give a darn what you think it is.

It is black and based on Hamura's chackra and has a Mode similar to Judara.
Naruto doing that means nothing because Naruto is stomping Jubito and Judara himself.

Naruto with his feats also One-shots Jubito.

You want me to debate you based on what you think, not how it is done.

You either debunk something with actual panels or we are done.

You don't think is not an argument.


Also insert pictures like this: 

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> I don't really give a darn what you think it is.
> 
> It is black and based on Hamura's chackra and has a Mode similar to Judara.
> Naruto doing that means nothing because Naruto is stomping Jubito and Judara himself.
> ...




It not what I think, I am debating on what we have been shown to be TSB based attacks.  that wasn't a TSB based attack, otherwise it wouldn't have changed and stayed the same like with Obito's  sword of Nunoboko.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> It not what I think, I am debating on what we have been shown to be TSB based attacks.  that wasn't a TSB based attack, otherwise it wouldn't have changed and stayed the same like with Obito's  sword of Nunoboko.


Why is that?
Based on what?
Again it is the same as what Naruto used.


This mode increases the user's physical parameters well above that of Sage Mode and the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, as Naruto was able to kick away  before entering the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode with this power. As a heightened state of Sage Mode, Naruto's  are augmented with larger amounts of  to make them stronger. With the power he received from Hagoromo, Naruto has the innate ability to grasp the nature of chakra and comprehend all universal things: his  ability rises, to the point where he can sense and thus react to the invisible shadows in the world of .


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Why is that?
> Based on what?




My friend you are the one claiming that it is this. I am asking you to cite a source that claims that so i can look at it. We can't just claim any attack is Such and such without proof...that not how debating works.  We see the TSB, then he spins them around and we magically see  chakra based attack. 


I just want you to cite the source telling exactly that his move is what you are saying it is.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> My friend you are the one claiming that it is this. I am asking you to cite a source that claims that so i can look at it. We can't just claim any attack is Such and such without proof...that not how debating works.  We see the TSB, then he spins them around and we magically see  chakra based attack.
> 
> 
> I just want you to cite the source telling exactly that his move is what you are saying it is.


So tell me what it is mate.

I am not going to prove a negative.

O you want to educate me on debating, I already gave you arguments, it it the same as what Naruto, Obito and Madara used, it is based on Hamura's chakra.

If you have evidence to debunk my claim the provide them.

I did my part now do yours.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

This mode is said to be roughly on par with 's  . Upon activating this form the user gains access to nine , and Toneri displayed the ability to amplify their power by infusing them with chakra, turning them into glowing cyan orbs. In addition to shaping them into shields and dividing them into smaller orbs to launch high-speed barrage attacks, he was also able to transform a single orb into an ornate cage which he used to imprison  while battling Naruto. The Truth-Seeking Balls were also utilised in his  and  techniques, which he used to create an incredibly powerful silver typhoon that obliterated the moon's crust and a massive golden sword that cut the entire moon in half.

Source: *The Last: Naruto the Movie Novel.

I never believed I needed to prove the obvious but whatever!*


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> So tell me what it is mate.
> 
> I am not going to prove a negative.
> 
> ...




That the thing I don't know what It is, you where the one who told me what it was. And I am saying it didn't look like a TSB at the moment when he sliced the moon. 


 If it is a TSB, like you are saying then  Your argument about Rinnegan not being able to absorb it is correct.  However, you saying you can't prove a negative then we can't really say it truly is what you are saying it is. I am not going to just accept anything someone says about a Move without actually proof of it...is all i am saying. I mean, it not wrong of mean to be like that either because i wouldn't except you to accept something without proof as well. 

 Let just say for argument sake that it is TSB like Attack...you did realize that The Obito with the sword of Nunoboko can do the same feat right?  If it just a TSB attack like you are claiming then there is no reason Obito wouldn't be able to do that especially since he said he could do that to the earth if he wanted to. Moreover, he said he was going to unmake the world with it.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> This mode is said to be roughly on par with 's  . Upon activating this form the user gains access to nine , and Toneri displayed the ability to amplify their power by infusing them with chakra, turning them into glowing cyan orbs. In addition to shaping them into shields and dividing them into smaller orbs to launch high-speed barrage attacks, he was also able to transform a single orb into an ornate cage which he used to imprison  while battling Naruto. The Truth-Seeking Balls were also utilised in his  and  techniques, which he used to create an incredibly powerful silver typhoon that obliterated the moon's crust and a massive golden sword that cut the entire moon in half.
> 
> Source: *The Last: Naruto the Movie Novel.
> 
> I never believed I needed to prove the obvious but whatever!*




Then by the Same Logic Obito with the sword of Nunoboko can do that to the moon as well  since you can Shape the TSB in to any size.

so, if that is true then You are right Rinnegan won't be able to absorb it. It not about proving the obvious, it about me  not buying into  random claim without anything backing it up.

But since you brought proof i won't argue against it...but at point if it is a TSB based Attack...then Obito can literally do the same thing with the sword of Nunoboko.

The fact that Juubi has far more chakra and chakra reserves than Toneri the fight is in Obito's favor.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> That the thing I don't know what It is, you where the one who told me what it was. And I am saying it didn't look like a TSB at the moment when he sliced the moon.
> 
> 
> If it is a TSB, like you are saying then  Your argument about Rinnegan not being able to absorb it is correct.  However, you saying you can't prove a negative then we can't really say it truly is what you are saying it is. I am not going to just accept anything someone says about a Move without actually proof of it...is all i am saying. I mean, it not wrong of mean to be like that either because i wouldn't except you to accept something without proof as well.
> ...


Again, most people will neg you I find you amusing.

This is the arena.

First of all, statements mean nothing.


It is TSB and you have no counter-argument, I even gave you sources as you asked, now you are just debating in bad faith!


Obito with that sword was destroyed by Naruto and Sasuke with no Six path chakra so that is false:


There is no reason is not an argument, that sword has panels and those are subpar.

He claims he can do X mean exactly nothing in the arena, that is a fallacy.

yes, he can claim what he wants, he was defeated by Naruto and Sasuke and the sword was crushed.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Again, most people will neg you I find you amusing.
> 
> This is the arena.
> 
> ...




Last I checked Naruto didn't use Six path Chakra to destroy Toneri.

You saying I am not debating in good Faith? My friend...you are not even  being 100% truthful in the debate with me.

It wasn't just Naruto and Sasuke who Defeated Obito.







BSM Naruto had to combined powers with *Sasuke's power+ 9 other people who he gave a Full BM Amp *which was more powerful than the one Naruto gave Kakashi which was stated to have made him 3 x more powerful.

Naruto still needed Talk no Jutsu to even beat Obito still with all that help.


If you liked to give out a proper number for how strong Naruto  and Sasuke Combining their powers are be my guest,  it all baseless assumptions.


considering  50% Naruto and 50% Sasuke was able to one shot Fused Momoshiki by combining their powers  I can pretty much assure you the power was more powerful than you think it is.


in the Movie *100 Fodder shinobi *is enough to power a moon cannon  that was going to sacrifice Naruto. Naruto in just normal BM was enough to power the whole Shinobi alliance and make them 3 times stronger than war Arc Kakashi.


Like I said Naruto didn't use any Six path Powers against Toneri to defeat him so...what your point about Obito being defeated with non-Six path power prove?


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Last I checked Naruto didn't use Six path Chakra to destroy Toneri.


Mate that is irrelevant!



MYGod000 said:


> BSM Naruto had to combined powers with *Sasuke's power+ 9 other people who he gave a Full BM Amp *which was more powerful than the one Naruto gave Kakashi which was stated to have made him 3 x more powerful.


Irrelevant we are talking about feats.


MYGod000 said:


> Naruto still needed Talk no Jutsu to even beat Obito still with all that help.


Irrelevant, talking about the sword only.


MYGod000 said:


> considering 50% Naruto and 50% Sasuke was able to one shot Fused Momoshiki by combining their powers I can pretty much assure you the power was more powerful than you think it is.


I don't talk of Boruro verse. Obito shifts diff that verse alone including Naruto and Sasuke.


MYGod000 said:


> in the Movie *100 Fodder shinobi *is enough to power a moon cannon that was going to sacrifice Naruto. Naruto in just normal BM was enough to power the whole Shinobi alliance and make them 3 times stronger than war Arc Kakashi.


Irrelevant the cannon was not used,  you can't use it again a statement.


MYGod000 said:


> Like I said Naruto didn't use any Six path Powers against Toneri to defeat him so...what your point about Obito being defeated with non-Six path power prove?


That Naruto is that much stronger in the last based on feats.

Feats >>>>> all this talk.

Toneri used Hamura chackra and TSB, he cut the moon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jubi host did.


Naruto destroyed Toneri.

that simple.


Again Naruto from that Last >> Naruto & Sasuke that defeated Kaguya  > Jubidara >> Jubito.


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## Raiken (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Naruto from that Last >> Naruto & Sasuke that defeated Kaguya  > Jubidara >> Jubito.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

Cryorex said:


>


You know you are welcome to disprove it, you have access to all 699 chapters.

Go for it!


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate that is irrelevant!
> 
> 
> Irrelevant we are talking about feats.
> ...






Bruh....Madara is in the Same tier as Hagoromo.  Toneri isn't even as powerful as Hamura. 






Toneri needed Naruto's Chakra+*Byakugan cluster+* his own power just to Reach Hamura's level of power. 


Hagoromo>>>>>Hamura>>>Naruto>Toneri


Naruto from the Last is 1/3rd of Hamura's power.  The power difference from Naruto to Hamura is greater than the Power difference from 3 eyed Madara to Base Kaguya.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 15, 2020)

Why the fuck is this shit still open?

Anyone arguing for Juubito winning here is blind as fuck

End of story

Hell dude the guy has no counter to getting his chakra drained let alone anything else Toneri has over him 

The sheer delusion in here is nuts


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Bruh....Madara is in the Same tier as Hagoromo.  Toneri isn't even as powerful as Hamura.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mate why is it so hard to prove it.

Again stop typing show me the power of 3rd eye madara that is >> Naruto.

Do you understand the concept of feats and an Arena Debate?


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Hagoromo>>>>>Hamura>>>Naruto>Toneri





WorldsStrongest said:


> The sheer delusion in here is nuts


Read this.

And Madara is equal to Hogoromo.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Bruh....Madara is in the Same tier as Hagoromo.  Toneri isn't even as powerful as Hamura.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wanna explain to me why you think this entirely baseless and subjective chain has any merit on Juubito?


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate why is it so hard to prove it.
> 
> Again stop typing show me the power of 3rd eye madara that is >> Naruto.
> 
> Do you understand the concept of feats and an Arena Debate?


 


Before i go, if  that how you see the debate  then by your own logic Adult Naruto would be weaker than Teen Naruto Due to have lower feats.


I explained to you the Juubi is  more powerful than Toneri.  

we see on panel Juubi Spamming out Juubi dama casually.  

Since you said 3 eyed Madara is featless, and that I can't prove he greater than Naruto then we don't need to go in circles here. Just agree to disagree.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Wanna explain to me why you think this entirely baseless and subjective chain has any merit on Juubito?




No need to, if you say it baseless then we don't need to go in circles.


all I was saying is if we are only giving Toneri the win here because he split the Moon with a TSB...then by the same logic Obito is capable of the same feat as well.

Bring up him losing to  war arc Naruto+Sasuke+9 other Combatant who had BM Mode amps doesn't negate it being able to do the feat.


50% KCM Sage mode Naruto from the Last being stronger  than War arc BSM  Kurama avatar Naruto+EMS Susanoo Sasuke+ 9 other People with BM amps is pretty much a baseless assumption.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> No need to


Kinda do but ok


MYGod000 said:


> all I was saying is if we are only giving Toneri the win here because he split the Moon with a TSB...then by the same logic Obito is capable of the same feat as well.


No

Nothing about this makes sense

Toneri wins because he is physically much more powerful by feats

On no basis can you claim Juubito can do any of the shot Toneri did as Obitos own capability falls massively short per his own feats


MYGod000 said:


> 50% KCM Sage mode Naruto from the Last being stronger than War arc BSM Kurama avatar Naruto+EMS Susanoo Sasuke+ 9 other People with BM amps is pretty much a baseless assumption.


Except it isnt

Like at all

Look at what he could do and survive

Fucking exactly

Hes orders of magnitude above anything they faced as hes above Juubito and visibly so

He also received 50% of the sages power, which is an amp visibly more powerful than the damn Juubi


MYGod000 said:


> Bring up him losing to war arc Naruto+Sasuke+9 other Combatant who had BM Mode amps doesn't negate it being able to do the feat.


You have literally nothing to suggest he can do the feat aside from saying “he can do the feat”

This isnt an argument 

Nothing in this post has had any substance at all actually


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## Raiken (May 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Why the fuck is this shit still open?


Because Juubito is the only JJ Toneri has a chance against.


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## Raiken (May 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> History lesson
> 
> Every time we do this thread Toneri dominates in everyones mind but Marus and like a few others
> 
> ...


Pretty sure a lot of people believed in Donald Trump too, it didn't make them any less retarded.


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## Animegoin (May 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> oof



Classic WS still spouting nonsense despite me negging you many times on this very subject.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Kinda do but ok
> 
> No
> 
> ...





Actually...I said he can do this because he has far more chakra than Toneri. 


You said he can't because Toneri has far better feats. 


why are you continuing to reply after I said Agree to disagree when you said all my claims are just baseless?  we don't need to continue a fruitless debate.  let respect each other positions and just agree to disagree.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Also, I want to add  saying "Everyone" Agree with x being better so that means he is better isn't in no way shape or form a proper argument.

That is also *argument from popularity. 

*


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Before i go, if  that how you see the debate  then by your own logic Adult Naruto would be weaker than Teen Naruto Due to have lower feats.
> 
> 
> I explained to you the Juubi is  more powerful than Toneri.
> ...



Adult Naruto is made by another mangaka that does not show the same feats that even Teen Naruto had so there are different entities, how many times do I need to tell you this is the Arena, where feats are what we debate.

This is not how it works, Kaguya was more powerful and she lost.

Jubi dama is nowhere even close to what a moon split implies!
He overpowered the gravitation pull of the Moon that is affected by earth's gravitation pull >> continental in nature >>> jubi dama.

Jubi was never seen with that AP.

Then you can't conclude that he wins, those with higher feats win period, absence of arguments is not an argument.

You have no basis to imply the Madara has better hype when Kishi did him by a stab from Black Zetsu.



MYGod000 said:


> Also, I want to add  saying "Everyone" Agree with x being better so that means he is better isn't in no way shape or form a proper argument.
> 
> That is also an *argument from popularity.
> *


From the guy that uses hype to debate in the arena and puts those above feats that is hypocritical but  I agree on that!


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## WorldsStrongest (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Actually...I said he can do this because he has far more chakra than Toneri.


Which is, again, baseless

Toneris chakra is compared to Kaguya, he gets even more chakra on top of that with the Tenseigan as well

And regardless, chakra reserves dont correlate directly with attack potency 

Thats a non sequitur 

We have seen Obitos max offensive ability both with Bijudamas and with his TSBs

And Toneris feats embarrass that


MYGod000 said:


> why are you continuing to reply


Thats how debates work


MYGod000 said:


> after I said Agree to disagree


This is actually the first youve said those words but okay


MYGod000 said:


> we don't need to continue a fruitless debate. let respect each other positions and just agree to disagree.


Fair enough


MYGod000 said:


> I want to add saying "Everyone" Agree with x being better so that means he is better isn't in no way shape or form a proper argument.
> 
> That is also *argument from popularity.*


Not what Im doing so Ill just assume youre talking about someone else


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## WorldsStrongest (May 15, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> Because Juubito is the only JJ Toneri has a chance against


Whether or not you think 3 eyed Madara beats him that doesnt mean he and Juubito are comparable

Shit tier logic


Cryorex said:


> Pretty sure a lot of people believed in Donald Trump too, it didn't make them any less retarded.


Cool non sequitur bruh

No one gives a shit about a bunch of redneck inbreds who voted for a racist incompetent 

Nor does bringing them up make your own argument any better


Animegoin said:


> Classic WS still spouting nonsense despite me negging you many times on this very subject.


The only thing you embarrass is yourself bud

As always


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## Altiora Night (May 15, 2020)

Toneri’s feats include slicing the damn moon in half *casually*, and also moving it *casually*.

All of the above were done with minimal efforts, and the feats from The Last are exactly why most Naruto God tier characters are pegged at small planet level IIRC. Ten-Tails Obito sure as hell gets no credit for most Naruto God tiers being small planet level.

The strongest move Obito can pull off is putting up a barrier and bombard his opponent with 4 Ten-Tails TBB, and guess what; Toneri defend himself from it the same way Obito can, that is by encasing himself with a TSB shield.

Toneri murks.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Which is, again, baseless
> 
> Toneris chakra is compared to Kaguya, he gets even more chakra on top of that with the Tenseigan as well
> 
> ...




Now you are arguing Semantic?  It was speaking about Toneri's power being similar to Kaguya because he is an Otsutsuki.

If you are trying to say Toneri can destroy a world with Pure power alone you are wrong otherwise he wouldn't have needed to drop the moon on the planet.


Why are you being a hypocrite here? Prime Madara is comparable to Kaguya, Because She needed Two powers Greater than the Juubi to be revived.


Which scales Madara Directly to Hagoromo and around base Kaguya.



MAdara and Hagoromo are the only ones who scale near Kaguya, Toneri doesn't even scale to Hamura so your KAguya argument doesn't hold much weight at all.

You are the one who is trying to argue that Naruto in just 2 years Somehow surpassed RSM Naruto in just KCM Sage mode.  Which you have yet to prove. 



How is Naruto surpassing that form?  you said his other forms gained a buff...but at the end of the day you can't prove just how much stronger naruto Got and the fact that he weaker than Hamura proves my point that his powers hasn't increased that much as you are implying.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Why are you being a hypocrite here? Prime Madara is comparable to Kaguya, Because She needed Two powers Greater than the Juubi to be revived.


Kaguya legittely used Black Zetsu to destroy him.

Your only point is that he has the biggest quantity of chakra and that means shit!


MYGod000 said:


> MAdara and Hagoromo are the only ones who scale near Kaguya, Toneri doesn't even scale to Hamura so your KAguya argument doesn't hold much weight at all.


No, they don't Kaguya scales only to herself, the only way to beat her is to seal her.


MYGod000 said:


> You are the one who is trying to argue that Naruto in just 2 years Somehow surpassed RSM Naruto in just KCM Sage mode. Which you have yet to prove.


His feats prove that, you are using but my logic because Madara is X.

he uses feats and we are in the Arena, Kaguya scales to no one, she is the only one with Planetry AP, then comes Toneri.

You don't even know what scaling means you are scaling based on hype, that is not how scaling is done. only when we don't have feasts.
Madara has feats and they are nowhere near Toneri let alone Kaguya.


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## Altiora Night (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> *Prime Madara is comparable to Kaguya.*


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Kaguya legittely used Black Zetsu to destroy him.
> 
> Your only point is that he has the biggest quantity of chakra and that means shit!




that your opinion. We are not debating based on opinions, we our debating on facts. and like I been saying Madara has the largest quantity of Chakra.  in Naruto if you have more chakra you have more power, There is no in between. 

also, having more chakra doesn't mean you automatic win either, otherwise Kaguya would never have lost.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

You are laughing but  it facts.


I.T Chakra=Greater than the Juubi

Prime Madara=Greater than the Juubi


Kaguya=I.T chakra+Prime Madara.

 Logically Base Kaguya is only 2 x more powerful than Prime Madara.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> that your opinion. We are not debating based on opinions, we our debating on facts. and like I been saying Madara has the largest quantity of Chakra.  in Naruto if you have more chakra you have more power, There is no in between.
> 
> also, having more chakra doesn't mean you automatic win either, otherwise Kaguya would never have lost.



Neah you debate on feats.


Kaguya had more chakra and she was defeated 2 times.

You are just disagreeing with us for the sake of it.

You have not panel where Madara has feats to go tow to tow with Toneri.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 15, 2020)

And here comes mr."agree to disagree" doing the exact opposite of that



MYGod000 said:


> Now you are arguing Semantic?


The fuck are you talking about 

I literally said the entire point of chakra reserves ISNT an argument to bother with


MYGod000 said:


> If you are trying to say Toneri can destroy a world with Pure power alone you are wrong otherwise he wouldn't have needed to drop the moon on the planet.


So 

In your mind

What do you think would happen if Toneri used the attack that cut the moon in half on earth bud?

Also him moving the damn mmon out of orbit with TK has been calced at planetary levels of energy or greater iirc


MYGod000 said:


> Why are you being a hypocrite here?


Literally nothing youre saying has any basis at all and you are quite literally all over the place with headcanon


MYGod000 said:


> Prime Madara is comparable to Kaguya, Because She needed Two powers Greater than the Juubi to be revived.


No

No the fuck he isnt

The mere PRETENSE of Kaguyas chakra, and not even ALL of it was so much greater than Madaras that he basically fucking exploded and could do nothing to contain it

Hes also a dude who was getting boxed and embarrassed by the INDIVIDUAL HALVES of Hagoromos power

In no world is he near Kaguya

Fuck outta here 


MYGod000 said:


> Which scales Madara Directly to Hagoromo and around base Kaguya.


No

No it doesnt

Nothing you are saying here makes sense at all

Madara doesnt scale to Hagoromo because he couldnt even overpower the individual halves of Hagoromos power

Take a knee kid you dont know what youre talking about


MYGod000 said:


> MAdara and Hagoromo are the only ones who scale near Kaguya


NEITHER scale to Kaguya actually

Read the manga bud


MYGod000 said:


> Toneri doesn't even scale to Hamura so your KAguya argument doesn't hold much weight at all.


I never made a Kaguya argument

I was merely saying that making an argument about the quality of their chakra correlating to potency is stupid 


MYGod000 said:


> You are the one who is trying to argue that Naruto in just 2 years Somehow surpassed RSM Naruto in just KCM Sage mode. Which you have yet to prove.


What the fuck are you talking about 

Why does TL Naruto being stronger than his RSM WA self mean ANYTHING compared to Toneri vs Juubito???

That has literally no bearing on any discussion here

BASE RIKUDO NARUTO has BETTER FEATS than Juubito does

Toneri fought BSM RIKUDO NARUTO

End of story

Their feats are worlds apart

Only discussion that needs to happen here


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## Altiora Night (May 15, 2020)

"Prime Madara is comparable to Kaguya."

Yeah right.

Madara absorbed the Divine Tree, gained more power, but little did he know that what he ended up doing was injecting himself with testosterone blockers and estrogens in order to complete his transformation into a more powerful woman.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiken (May 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No one gives a shit about a bunch of redneck inbreds who voted for a racist incompetent
> 
> Nor does bringing them up make your own argument any better


And just because more people believe something over those that do not, doesn't make it right. Which was your argument.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> You are laughing but  it facts.
> 
> 
> I.T Chakra=Greater than the Juubi
> ...


Black Zetsu has nowhere near the chakra that the Jubi has.

Madara did not have the jubi chakra before he became Jin.

Black Zetsu defeated Madara with the fact that he is the will of Kaguya, Madara defeated the Jin by becoming its host with the help of the rinnegan.


Hashirama defeated Madara + Kyubi and Kyubi has more chakra.

So many examples that prove you are wrong.

Kaguya was defeated by a seal and overpowered by Naruto and she has the most chakra in the series.

So please no more chakra >> less chakra.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 15, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> And just because more people believe something over those that do not, doesn't make it right. Which was your argument.


It wasnt

But okay

My argument was not only are the pro Juubito fans a minority, they also have no actual argument or counter to anything that Toneri has over Juubito

But sure

Make it all about consensus when that is not what I said at all


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Neah you debate on feats.
> 
> 
> *Kaguya had more chakra and she was defeated 2 times*.
> ...





I literally said that  2 mins before you made your post. 

No, I am disagreeing with you because facts disagree with your argument. 



Like I said above... I.T Chakra=Greater than the Juubi.


Prime Madara=Greater than the Juubi


Kaguya needed both Madara and I.T chakra to be revived, so logically Madara is comparable.  you are ignoring facts from the manga because you don't want to accept it.


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## Altiora Night (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> You are laughing but  it facts.
> 
> 
> I.T Chakra=Greater than the Juubi
> ...


... and what happened when that very IT chakra entered Madara's body ?

RIGHT.

He swole up like a fucking balloon because his body couldn't handle all of that chakra.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> No, I am disagreeing with you because facts disagree with your argument.


Again learn what in an Arena debate facts means aka panel and feats.
You never provided one.


MYGod000 said:


> Kaguya needed both Madara and I.T chakra to be revived, so logically Madara is comparable. you are ignoring facts from the manga because you don't want to accept it.


Again no one cares in the arena that Kaguya is made from that.

Kaguya and madara are nigh and day!

Learn what facts are in the first place in the arena.



Altiora Night said:


> He swole up like a fucking balloon because his body couldn't handle all of that chakra.


But for some reason Kaguya and Madara are comparable!

Reactions: Like 1


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## kayz (May 15, 2020)

Toneri takes Juubito to the cleaners. 

Toneri absorbs the Juubi's chakra with tenseigan orb leaving only the husk in Juubito.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And here comes mr."agree to disagree" doing the exact opposite of that
> 
> 
> The fuck are you talking about
> ...




You did, You said Toneri has comparable Chakra to Kaguya. 




at least back that up with something.  Toneri doesn't even scale to Hamura, who is much weaker than Hagoromo. 


Based on portrayal, and the logic of the series Hagoromo>Hamura

Madara=Hagoromo>Hamura>Toneri.


I said this because Madara power is greater than the Juubi's. The I.T chakra that madara was absorbing was also said to be greater than the Juubi.


Kaguya needed both  Madara+I.T Chakra, which is the majority of her powers. 


Toneri isn't on that level.  





Madara preformed 2 of Kaguya's moves back to back, which where both planet level.  

 agree to disagree and let move on.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> You did, You said Toneri has comparable Chakra to Kaguya.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


Made Infinite Ilusion is not going to work when toneri is controlling the moon and that is not a planetary feat as in AP.

The other is also not also AP related.

Now compare it with this:


That is a planetary AP attack.



MYGod000 said:


> Based on portrayal, and the logic of the series Hagoromo>Hamura
> 
> Madara=Hagoromo>Hamura>Toneri.


Good in there Arena we do feats first >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hype!


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Again learn what in an Arena debate facts means aka panel and feats.
> You never provided one.
> 
> Again no one cares in the arena that Kaguya is made from that.
> ...




He is comparable because He preformed two of Kaguya's feats back to back which are planet level jutsu. 

He is comparable because we have direct Statements from  Naruto that the I.T chakra is greater than the Juubi. 

 Prime Madara has greater Chakra than the Juubi.

Kaguya needed Madara+I.T chakra to be revived. So...how are they not comparable?


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> He is comparable because He preformed two of Kaguya's feats back to back which are planet level jutsu.
> 
> He is comparable because we have direct Statements from  Naruto that the I.T chakra is greater than the Juubi.
> 
> ...


Good, we are not comparing illusion and chakra Senju absorption.

Those mean shit in a Vs!

AP as in destruction, Madara was not even big country level on panel.


We are not giving a win in the arena who has more chakra, that is illogical.

That way Jubi wins vs many and she doesn't!


Kaguya' feats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madara's, that is why.


Madara is just a big part of Kaguya's chakra but he never was the same tier in feat capabilities.

He can be stopped by Naruto and Sasuke in casting that illusion, Sasuke is immune to it so even if it is planetary in AOE, a rinegan stops it, now try to do that vs Kaguya's planetary attacks.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> 
> 
> Made Infinite Ilusion is not going to work when toneri is controlling the moon and that is not a planetary feat as in AP.
> ...




....why do people think Making an illusion takes no chakra?  Genjutsu requires chakra

because it stated the more complex an illusion is the more chakra is required to make it, The fact that Madara *created an empty Dimension* proves that a lot of chakra was required to make it. 


That was Kaguya after She absorbed I.T for a Second time. That Kaguya is more powerful than she was before when she was first revived.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Good, we are not comparing illusion and chakra Senju absorption.
> 
> Those mean shit in a Vs!
> 
> ...





That an Argument from Ignorance Fallacy.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> That an Argument from Ignorance Fallacy.


That is in fact you using a fallacy.

I told you to bring the panels where his feats are comparable.

Juby is also close to Madara and Kaguya in chakra so same tier LOL based on your falacy.

Let me remind you that Madara was done by Black Zetsu not a uber seal because you can't die at all.

Kaguya is still alive and Madara is dead.

There was never a closeness to the two entities.

Madara was a tool for Kaguya, not a close pier, what manga did you read?

Reactions: Like 1


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> That is in fact you using a fallacy.
> 
> I told you to bring the panels where his feats are comparable.
> 
> Juby is also close to Madara and Kaguya in chakra so same tier LOL.





I just showed you Madara doing two of Kaguya level jutsu.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> I just showed you Madara doing two of Kaguya level jutsu.


An Illusion is not a planetary AP feat.
We were not debating that, also that need the moon, the moon is removed or he fights in Kaguya's dimension there is not feat that he can do at that level so GG for that!

That also was her plan GG.

He did this and absorbed the chakra so she can revive and you are telling me that they are similar.

You are not proving your point at all, we are debating AP feats and Toneri has access to the moon he can destroy it so there is no Madara planetary feats.

Also, that was a reflection of an illusion FFS.


For example, you go into the DB the original one and make a Roshi vs Madara.

Roshi erases the Moon and then Madara.

Now for  Toneri that is complicated because he has shown AP close to that but Madara gets erased in 10s.


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## Animegoin (May 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The only thing you embarrass is yourself bud
> 
> As always



Hmm from what I recall you were crying because people were agreeing with me. You even tagged them in your response to me lmao

Drop that facade, mate; you’re fooling no one.


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## Altiora Night (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Madara was a tool for Kaguya.


This.

Madara attained godhood as a result of obtaining a part of Kaguya's power, that is, becoming Ten-Tails' host.

When IT chakra, which was stated to be greater than Ten-Tails' entered his body, Madara swole up like a balloon as his body couldn't handle this much chakra.

Even the Rinne Sharingan was Kaguya's as when Madara used IT, we literally SAW the image of Kaguya.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> An Illusion is not a planetary AP feat.
> We were not debating that, also that need the moon, the moon is removed or he fights in Kaguya's dimension there is not feat that he can do at that level so GG for that!
> 
> That also was her plan GG.
> ...




You Asked me  to show you feats of Madara that are on Kaguya level. That is exactly what I did.


I.T is a Kaguya level feat it being an illusion is irrelevant. 

God: Nativity World of Trees is a Kaguya level jutsu. 


The fact that MAdara can do Kaguya level of Jutsu proves that he is at least comparable to Kaguya. 


Kaguya and Madara are the only two people listed on those Jutsu as well.


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## Alita (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> the only Feat Toneri TSB have that is better is the fact that he can make many. If you are implying that Juubi Obito and Madara can't do something as simple as that...then you also agree that Hagoromo can't as well as Hamura who have not shown said abilities, and we know both of them are light- years more powerful than Toneri.
> 
> in the Recent Boruto Manga it stated The Juubi's are indeed planet destroyers.  it doesn't contradict the manga at all, because the Manga verbatim says the Juubi takes chakra from the planet; creates it chakra fruit then the planet dies later even the toad told Hagoromo that if he didn't stop this thing The planet was going to die.
> 
> in the recent manga it stated the Otsutsuki use the Ten tails as utensils  to destroy planets.  so, that exposition dump fall in line with what was already said about the Ten tails just in more detail about the Juubi and Otsutsuki's relationship.



Madara and obito cannot replicate the feat because......

1. They don't have the feats to prove they can.
2. They have way less TSB's than Toneri. Like 12 at most compared to who knows how many Toneri had.

Hagomoro and Hamura are easily scaled to Toneri since hagomoro gave Naruto the powers he originally had which Naruto used to beat toneri with. He also effortlessly created a moon while dying so it isn't hard to believe he could bust one. Hamura is hagomoro's peer and has all the same abilities and powers as Toneri but better.

And it was never stated in the recent chapter that juubi can outright nuke a planet. Just that it can drain all the chakra of a planet in it's tree form.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Altiora Night said:


> This.
> 
> Madara attained godhood as a result of obtaining a part of Kaguya's power, that is, becoming Ten-Tails' host.
> 
> ...




ahh...How is that any different than Jigen situation then?  He obtained Godhood and became a Otsutsuki, and Absorbing a small portion of isshiki's power and was able to stomp Adult Sasuke and Naruto. 

 I find it silly that you are  acting like this for Madara.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> You Asked me  to show you feats of Madara that are on Kaguya level. That is exactly what I did.
> 
> 
> I.T is a Kaguya level feat it being an illusion is irrelevant.
> ...


No, I said to bring an AP level feat that Kaguya had.

That is what you wanted to bring mate.

If Kaguya uses the planetary ball and Madra the illusion Kaguya one-shots and yet Madara is close to her.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Madara and obito cannot replicate the feat because......
> 
> 1. They don't have the feats to prove they can.
> 2. They have way less TSB's than Toneri. Like 12 at most compared to who knows how many Toneri had.
> ...




They can make more TSB, like I just proved Madara has two Kaguya level feats.  Now...show me a feat of Toneri that is a Kaguya level feat.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> No, I said to bring an AP level feat that Kaguya had.
> 
> That is what you wanted to bring mate.
> 
> If Kaguya uses the planetary ball and Madra the illusion Kaguya one-shots and yet Madara is close to her.




Now, you are just nitpicking


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Now, you are just nitpicking


Now you are deflecting.

There is no way Madara can even give Kaguya a low diff when we use her feats in a no PIS scenario so yeah they are not the same tier let alone close.

Kaguya literally used Zetsu to one-shots, Madara.


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## Alita (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> the War arc Juubi is more powerful than the Juubi in the past.
> 
> 
> the Juubi was only missing 50% of the 9 tails. Which the God tree Gained  back when he Absorbed BSM Naruto+BM Minato.
> ...



It took both hagomoro and hamura to beat the prime juubi in the past. The war arc juubi was dealt with by the 4 edo hokage. It's obvious the past juubi was far stronger. Everything your are mentioning about war juubi the past juubi should also easily be capable of. And the tenpchii was actually put at country level from what I remember. The past juubi was kaguya literally transformed into juubi. That is a huge difference in strength. Kaguya while temporarily transformed in the final battle completely outclassed Naruto and Sauce.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> It took both hagomoro and hamura to beat the prime juubi in the past. The war arc juubi was dealt with by the 4 edo hokage. It's obvious the past juubi was far stronger. Everything your are mentioning about war juubi the past juubi should also easily be capable of. And the tenpchii was actually put at country level from what I remember. The past juubi was kaguya literally transformed into juubi. That is a huge difference in strength. Kaguya while temporarily transformed in the final battle completely outclassed Naruto and Sauce.


War arc fets in AP are country level+.

Toneri just crashes the moon on earth and soloes the verse.


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## Alita (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> They can make more TSB, like I just proved Madara has two Kaguya level feats.  Now...show me a feat of Toneri that is a Kaguya level feat.



What kaguya level feat did madara have? IT is planetary scale hax not destruction.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Now you are deflecting.
> 
> There is no way Madara can even give Kaguya a low diff when we use her feats in a no PIS scenario so yeah they are not the same tier let alone close.
> 
> Kaguya literally used Zetsu to one-shots, Madara.




Madara would use his wood Clones and we know  they can be used to hold Kaguya off.


 Zetsu did that while Madara back was turned, if you were telling me that Zetsu can do that in a proper fight With Madara then you are completely Delusional.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Madara would use his wood Clones and we know  they can be used to hold Kaguya off.
> 
> 
> Zetsu did that while Madara back was turned, if you were telling me that Zetsu can do that in a proper fight With Madara then you are completely Delusional.


Not a fight vs Kaguya + Zetsu and Zetsu does the same.

Kaguya just uses her bones and erases all of them.

Again uses the planetary dama and shifts dimensions and neg diffs Madara.


You are delusional if you believe that Madara can do anything to Kaguya.

His best Justus are a subpar form of what she can do way better!


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## Alita (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> *War arc fets in AP are country level+*.
> 
> Toneri just crashes the moon on earth and soloes the verse.



If we are going by fan calcs from the OBD stage 2 juubi's bomb was put at continent level and madara's multi chibaku tensei was multi continent/moon. But Toneri's moon moving feat was put at small planet level. If your ignoring calcs and just going by visuals then yeah I probably agree tho with the bolded.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> What kaguya level feat did madara have? IT is planetary scale hax not destruction.







Both of those Jutsu are Kaguya tier level.


 Why are we talking about  Obito's Juubi as if  his Juubi equaled Madara's juubi?  Madara Juubi had 8.5 tailed beast, while Obito's Juubi had 7.2 tailed beast.

Madara's Juubi>>>Obito's Juubi.


  Madara absorbed the  God Tree which had also absorbed BSM Naruto& BM Minato's  Chakra


Madara had a far more powerful juubi than then the one That was in the past.


Madara didn't really get a chance to show his full powers because plot stopped him.

What we did see of him he preformed two of Kaguya's jutsu.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Not a fight vs Kaguya + Zetsu and Zetsu does the same.
> 
> Kaguya just uses her bones and erases all of them.
> 
> ...




The fine and Madara can just make more,  i doubt it would erase Madara...since he was completely immortal after he took in the God tree+Regeneration.

If Naruto was able to make her struggle a bit with those clones than a far more powerful MAdara would easily do the same for Kaguya


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## Alita (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Both of those Jutsu are Kaguya tier level.
> 
> 
> Why are we talking about  Obito's Juubi as if  his Juubi equaled Madara's juubi?  Madara Juubi had 8.5 tailed beast, while Obito's Juubi had 7.2 tailed beast.
> ...



I just explained that those are planetary scale in hax/range not in raw firepower. Just cause he can use 2 of her powers doesn't mean he can do everything she can.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> The fine and Madara can just make more,  i doubt it would erase Madara...since he was completely immortal after he took in the God tree+Regeneration.


Dude he died.

So did Obito.

 The only real immortal is Kaguya.
 Their pseudo immortality comes from her.

His reg comes from her, again are you sure you read the manga?


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> It took both hagomoro and hamura to beat the prime juubi in the past. The war arc juubi was dealt with by the 4 edo hokage. It's obvious the past juubi was far stronger. Everything your are mentioning about war juubi the past juubi should also easily be capable of. And the tenpchii was actually put at country level from what I remember. The past juubi was kaguya literally transformed into juubi. That is a huge difference in strength. Kaguya while temporarily transformed in the final battle completely outclassed Naruto and Sauce.



That was obito Juubi that the Edo Kages fought not the one madara had.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> I just explained that those are planetary scale in hax/range not in raw firepower. Just cause he can use 2 of her powers doesn't mean he can do everything she can.




ahh...Who even Argued that?  LMFAO....I'm saying if Madara is able to do any of Her Jutsu puts him comparable to base Kaguya in the war


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> If we are going by fan calcs from the OBD stage 2 juubi's bomb was put at continent level and madara's multi chibaku tensei was multi continent/moon. But Toneri's moon moving feat was put at small planet level. If your ignoring calcs and just going by visuals then yeah I probably agree tho with the bolded.


Visuals to keep it simple!


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Dude he died.
> 
> So did Obito.
> 
> ...




Obito wasn't even a Juubi jin when he died so your point?  Soo you are arguing that KAguya would die if she get hit by her all killing Ash bone then right?


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> ahh...Who even Argued that?  LMFAO....I'm saying if Madara is able to do any of Her Jutsu puts him comparable to base Kaguya in the war


LOL ....................


If he does one Justus now he is the same tier as her LAAAAAAAAAAAAAMo


Her best Jutsu negs him so false.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Obito wasn't even a Juubi jin when he died so your point?  Soo you are arguing that KAguya would die if she get hit by her all killing Ash bone then right?


No she is the Jubi mate, again did you read the manga.

Madara had her power per se chakra, she is the chakra, you can't kill her.

Madara, you remove the jubi and he is mortal.

Madara died, she was sealed because she is immortal.

I am done, I literally got bored.


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## Alita (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> That was obito Juubi that the Edo Kages fought not the one madara had.



We have no idea how strong that juubi was tho. Saying it's stronger than the past juubi who could take on hagomoro and hamura at the same time is baseless. 



MYGod000 said:


> ahh...Who even Argued that?  LMFAO....I'm saying if Madara is able to do any of Her Jutsu puts him comparable to base Kaguya in the war



Except the manga made it explicitly clear that base kaguya was >>> Juudara. Madara's body couldn't handle all her chakra and blew up like a balloon. Sasuke flat out stated she was on a completely different level from juudara. She negged sasuke a lot easier and quicker than juudara ever did and negged his susano effortlessly more than once and that was while holding back.


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> LOL ....................
> 
> 
> If he does one Justus not he is te same tier as her LAAAAAAAAAAAAAMo
> ...




why are you using Strawman arguments?  Not saying he is Kaguya tier at all,  i said he is comparable. 


You don't need to be equal to someone to be comparable to them.  I never said Madara can use all of her attack, I just said he was able to use two of her Jutsu's.


Her Dimension shift only she is stated to be able to do that. 


My dude....Hagoromo had no idea that Kaguya was even going to be revived...Madara at that time needed to be sealed with Six path CT.. By Hagoromo's own logic you can't kill Madara either.

it doesn't matter where his immortality comes from, it doesn't negate the fact that he is immortal.


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## Ren. (May 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> why are you using Strawman arguments?  Not saying he is Kaguya tier at all,i said he is comparable.
> 
> 
> You don't need to be equal to someone to be comparable to them.  I never said Madara can use all of her attack, I just said he was able to use two of her Jutsu's.
> ...


Mate do you understand that he died so he is not immortal!


Again she can neg diff him with her best feat that is not comparable at all.
She is planet level he can be multi-continental at best.

Madara died:  

Kaguya was sealed.

There is no immortality for Madara at the end in a fight with her


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> We have no idea how strong that juubi was tho. Saying it's stronger than the past juubi who could take on hagomoro and hamura at the same time is baseless.
> 
> 
> 
> Except the manga made it explicitly clear that base kaguya was >>> Juudara. Madara's body couldn't handle all her chakra and blew up like a balloon. Sasuke flat out stated she was on a completely different level from juudara. She negged sasuke a lot easier and quicker than juudara ever did and negged his susano effortlessly more than once and that was while holding back.




BAse KAguya>>Madara. 

Which I agreed with under the premise that Kaguya needed *I.T+Madara's chakra.* 

*Prime madara is above The Juubi, I.T chakra is above the juubi. *

you are trying to downplay  the logic because you don't want to accept  facts.  I don't know if it was you or another stated Madara is more powerful than the Juubi, and in the manga Naruto Gauged the I.T Chakra and stated verbatim to be more powerful than the Juubi.

How is Initial base War arc Kaguya  massively more powerful than Prime Madara  when *Both of the Chakra Sources she needs to be revived are above Juubi level? 

that is a Logical fallacy you are telling me. *


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## MYGod000 (May 15, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate do you understand that he died so he is not immortal!
> 
> 
> Again she can neg diff him with her best feat that is not comparable at all.
> ...






Yeah...try again buddy Kaguya died, and Sasuke states this when he was fighting Momoshiki and Kinishiki in the novels.


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## HokageSage2000 (May 16, 2020)

Juubito should be on Toneri level based on the lore of being a Juubi Jin and having the Rinnegan. TCM Toneri doesn't having Senjustsu chakra so hurting Juubito will be extremely difficult. Juubi Jins also have ridiculous regeneration. Even Kn0 Naruto can regenerate his destroyed lung in seconds and we already see what Juudara is capable of when it comes to regeneration, plus Juubito has Haishirama cell powered by Six paths Senjutsu which makes him nigh unkillable. Haishirama regeneration is superior or equal to Tsunade who can reattach her bottom half. TCM Toneri CWR gets negged diff by Juubito's Sword of Nunoboku (SoN). The fact that Juubito body-slammed SKCM 2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke's PS enhanced by CS 1 neg difficulty proves he should be on par with SKCM 2 The Last Naruto considering he has Six paths Senjutsu as well. Granted The Last SKCM 2 Naruto is far stronger than his War Arc version, but Juubito should still be in the same tier considering the Juubi, Six path Senjutsu chakra, and Rinnegan. Considering TCM Toneri TSB had trouble with The Last SKCM 2 Naruto Rasengans and punches; Juubito Quad Bijuudama or SoN should overpower and kill TCM Toneri. Plus he still has Kamui and Rinnegan techs like Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, Human path, Outer path, Preta path, Asura path abilities and etc. Juubito one-shots with Quad Bijuudama or SoN and wins low difficulty.


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## uchihakil (May 16, 2020)

Why don't some people understand that neither juubito nor juudara were tryna blow up the planet?? Toneri legit was tryna destroy both the moon and Earth, so he had every reason to use more disastrous techniques. Saying toneri is stronger than juudara/juubito cuz feats is like saying freiza is stronger than cell because he has better feats.

Madara saw himself as some sort of saviour, he wasn't tryna bust the friggin planet. Juubito at that point also shared the same vision as madara. 

Toneri can't even hurt juubito cuz juubito can regenerate, all this talk about GWRE and it splitting the moon is a moot point when it CAN NOT KILL juubito. Its a slicing technique, juubito had no problem whatsoever with regenerating half his body. And there is no proof toneri can suck a rinnegan users chakra, for all we know juubito should be able to activate preta and cancel the effect. Plus toneri might actually not be able to handle juubitos juubi sage energy, and he might explode

Reactions: Like 2


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## Alita (May 16, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> BAse KAguya>>Madara.
> 
> Which I agreed with under the premise that Kaguya needed *I.T+Madara's chakra.*
> 
> ...



I agree that juudara is stronger than war arc juubi but not the prime juubi that kaguya transformed into in the past.

Why? Cause it took both hagomoro and hamura to beat the thing either of which is stronger than juudara. 

I'm aware the madara claimed he reached hagomoro's level but that statement was likely just madara boasting since he has no idea how strong hagomoro even really is at his strongest and even if he was him being hagomoro level isn't enough to beat prime juubi since hagomoro needed assistance from hamura to win.


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## MYGod000 (May 16, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> I agree that juudara is stronger than war arc juubi but not the prime juubi that kaguya transformed into in the past.




 Madara is stronger than Juubi prime Juubi. He was only missing the other half of the 9 tails chakra, After he absorbed the God Tree the other half of the 9 tails chakra was no longer Required Because the *God Tree prior to being absorbed had already absorbed BSM Naruto+BM Minato's Chakra.*


^You need to Take that into account







Alita54 said:


> Why? Cause it took both hagomoro and hamura to beat the thing either of which is stronger than juudara.



After Looking at Naruto the Last Movie and everything...I'm being Very Objective here; Either prime Madara or prime Hagoromo would pretty much one shot Hamura.

From Naruto the Last Movie we get a gauge of how powerful Hamura actually is...when you take into account that the creators didn't even give Naruto Six path Mode because they didn't know about him having it it put him even less on the power scale.

According to Toneri...*Naruto KCM Sage Mode+Toneri+Byakugan Cluster*=<Hamura level of power.

Now, just to give you some insight the *Byakugan Cluster AKA Tenseigan Weapon*>100% KCM Sage mode Naruto  from the Last.  I say this because it was stated that not even Naruto's full power would be able to destroy it, and that he would need Hinata help.

Toneri even in TCM is far weaker than Juubi Obito.   I also believe Hamura has Absorption hax like Toneri has, I'd Put Hamura somewhere between 1 eyed Juubidara (Pre-God Tree) and  V2 Juubi Obito.



Even in the anime they showed their was a huge difference between Hagoromo and Hamura powers.







Alita54 said:


> I'm aware the madara claimed he reached hagomoro's level but that statement was likely just madara boasting since he has no idea how strong hagomoro even really is at his strongest and even if he was him being hagomoro level isn't enough to beat prime juubi since hagomoro needed assistance from hamura to win.






we had confirmation from Hagoromo himself, saying that Madara got to his level using the Juubi...That without taking into accound Obito Statements about Madara's Rinnegan having Overwhelming chakra and power that he almost couldn't control it.


He doesn't need to know...because we have exposition Dump from a flash back from Naruto talking with the Sage and him directly stating that Madara was on his level thank to the Juubi.  Even if you say that was only Talking about Base Six path Rinnegan Hagoromo non-JJ it not like Madara got massively more powerful after he recovered his 2nd Rinnegan even those Obito out right stated Madara's Rinnegan holds massive amounts of Chakra to the point he couldn't really control it.


Madara gained like  2-3 powers-ups as the juubi.


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## Alita (May 16, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Madara is stronger than Juubi prime Juubi. He was only missing the other half of the 9 tails chakra, After he absorbed the God Tree the other half of the 9 tails chakra was no longer Required Because the *God Tree prior to being absorbed had already absorbed BSM Naruto+BM Minato's Chakra.*
> 
> 
> ^You need to Take that into account
> ...



When did toneri say that? You have a screen shot? Hamura is a peer to hagomoro and thus should be far stronger than toneri. Toneri may have had similar powers but hamura should be much stronger. 

I put greater emphasis on feats over characters statements. Going by feats.....

Toneri >>>>>>> Juubito
The last Naruto >>>> Late war arc naruto

Doing anything moon level is more impressive than anything we have seen from juubito. Also you have a scan of hagomoro saying this?


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## MYGod000 (May 16, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> When did toneri say that? You have a screen shot? Hamura is a peer to hagomoro and thus should be far stronger than toneri. Toneri may have had similar powers but hamura should be much stronger.
> 
> I put greater emphasis on feats over characters statements. Going by feats.....
> 
> ...




He literally absorbed Naruto chakra...and that he will show him the power of Hamura the power to move the moon.

Hamura is far more powerful than Toneri by like 3 x him. 


Juubi Obito is 2 x Toneri in power, the Juubi itself is already way above Toneri level of power. 

No, sadly...Naruto from the last theoretically speaking should be more powerful but the Creators of the movie didn't have any idea that Naruto was going to gain Six path Powers back then.


Toneri D/C is country level. 

 GWR  is a TSB Beam Sword... even Juubi OBito with the Sword of Nunoboko  can do to the Moon what Toneri did. 

Hamura was a peer of Sharingan Hagoromo...after Hagoromo Gained MS+Rinnegan which are massive big power up and the only thing he gained after that was Six path Chakra which Hagoromo did as well as well as Juubi while The only thing Hamura gained after the fight with Kaguya was Tenseigan.  he isn't even close to Hagoromo.


 Hamura throughout his life only gained  2 noticeable power ups.

Six path chakra+Tenseigan.  if you want you can give him TCM.

while Hagoromo was gaining massive power-up throughout his life. 

Sharingan+SM+MS+Rinnegan+Six path Chakra+Six path Senjutsu+Juubi power up.

It also said that Hagoromo could enter KCM Naruto goes into.  their is literally no way Hamura would be any type of match for Hagoromo or Madara.


1 Eyed Juubi Madara>>Hamura>Juubi Obito>>KCM Naruto from the Last>TCM Toneri


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## Alita (May 16, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> He literally absorbed Naruto chakra...and that he will show him the power of Hamura the power to move the moon.



Yeah and that's one of hamura's powers. It doesn't mean that is all he is capable of. We have no idea the full extent of hamura's strength.



> Hamura is far more powerful than Toneri by like 3 x him.



We have no idea how exact the gap between hamura and toneri is tho just that it is huge.



> Juubi Obito is 2 x Toneri in power



Feats say otherwise.



> the Juubi itself is already way above Toneri level of power.



Only prime juubi. War arc juubi gets negged by a serious toneri.


> No, sadly...Naruto from the last theoretically speaking should be more powerful but the Creators of the movie didn't have any idea that Naruto was going to gain Six path Powers back then.



Again feats say otherwise. War arc Naruto showcased nothing that was moon level other than maybe his strongest attack at VOTE 2 unlike the last Naruto.



> Toneri D/C is country level.



He is small planet level going by fan made calculations and moon level going by visual feats.



> GWR  is a TSB Beam Sword... even Juubi OBito with the Sword of Nunoboko  can do to the Moon what Toneri did.



Again juubito doesn't have anywhere near the number of TSB's toneri has nor the same range with them that toneri does. Nor has he shown the ability to change their shape and size as Toneri does so no.



> Hamura was a peer of Sharingan Hagoromo...after Hagoromo Gained MS+Rinnegan which are massive big power up and the only thing he gained after that was Six path Chakra which Hagoromo did as well as well as Juubi while The only thing Hamura gained after the fight with Kaguya was Tenseigan.  he isn't even close to Hagoromo.



We have no idea how exactly hag and hamura compared to each other growing up. Kishi never gave us any canon info on it. But the fact that Hamura could help hag fight the prime juubi generally gives me the impression that the gap between them (If any exists in the first place.) is likely very small.


> 1 Eyed Juubi Madara>>Hamura>Juubi Obito>>KCM Naruto from the Last>TCM Toneri



We will just have to agree to disagree then. For me it's.....

Hamura >>> "The Last" Naruto > TCM Toneri >>> 1 eye juudara >>> juubito


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## MYGod000 (May 17, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Yeah and that's one of hamura's powers. It doesn't mean that is all he is capable of. We have no idea the full extent of hamura's strength.



I said that I also think Hamura has that Same Absorption hax that Toneri has.  My Point is why would it be such a big deal when he can just get more powerful from doing that?  i don't see the issue with them being that Level because we get a direct gauge of where his power is and it's KCM Naruto from the War+Toneri+Byakugan Cluster=Hamura.





Alita54 said:


> We have no idea how exact the gap between hamura and Toneri is tho just that it is huge.



We do, actually. Hamura is easily 3 x more powerful than Toneri.






Alita54 said:


> Feats say otherwise.




Feat wise the AOE of his attacks are impressive...but Ultimately  they Did nothing  at all and failed to really cause any real Damage.

Sai, Sakura, and Shikamaru were all Caught in Toneri's Attack and it even destroyed Sai Bird Jutsu yet it did nothing to them.

You are going by what his feats looked like on the moon, and I am telling you that If the Juubi was on the Moon it would literally destroy the moon with a Super Juubi Dama.






Alita54 said:


> Only prime juubi. War arc juubi gets negged by a serious toneri.



 as I showed Obito was preserving the Chakra of the Juubi for I.T and was spamming County busters. Toneri attack cut through the Crust of the Moon, with Sai, Sakura, and Hinata  being caught in the attack and it literally did nothing to them. Even the 9 tails at the end of the movie was able to shot a Bijuu blast through the moon and knocked a Powered up Toneri into the Sun.

in the war it was shown the Juubi power Massively Dwarfed the 9 tails power,  the Juubi in the war is stated to have planet level chakra...that was in it's skinny form before he could do Super Juubi Dama.








Alita54 said:


> Again feats say otherwise. War arc Naruto showcased nothing that was moon level other than maybe his strongest attack at VOTE 2 unlike the last Naruto.



Well...like I said we have statements which is the point of a statement...when we don't see the full power of something we go on statements...and Statements say  2nd form Skinny non-Buff Juubi is planet level.

Your argument doesn't make any sense at all.  so...Naruto and sasuke are suppose to show Moon level D/C and just nuke the whole company they are trying to protect? LMFAO





Alita54 said:


> He is small planet level going by fan made calculations and moon level going by visual feats.



That nice and the Juubi in the war in its skinny form is already on that level...we having even gotten to his 3rd and 4th form which are much stronger.  if you are going to go by feats then Feats prove that toneri's attack didn't even injure  Sai, and Hinata.





Alita54 said:


> Again juubito doesn't have anywhere near the number of TSB's toneri has nor the same range with them that toneri does. Nor has he shown the ability to change their shape and size as Toneri does so no



......Are you trying to argue the number of TSB determines how powerful someone is?  That is irrelevant...when Hagoromo and Hamura don't have as many TSB as Toneri either...so... is...that suppose to mean anything?





Alita54 said:


> We have no idea how exactly hag and hamura compared to each other growing up. Kishi never gave us any canon info on it. But the fact that Hamura could help hag fight the prime juubi generally gives me the impression that the gap between them (If any exists in the first place.) is likely very small.



We do when they animated the fight and base Sharingan Hagoromo one shotted Hamura.




Alita54 said:


> We will just have to agree to disagree then. For me it's.....
> 
> Hamura >>> "The Last" Naruto > TCM Toneri >>> 1 eye juudara >>> juubito




that is your opinion...I'm not going based off opinions i'm going based of fact what we know, and i'm being objective.


Hamura only had two noticeable power up...Six path power up and TCM.

Hagoromo had MS power up, sage mode, Rinnegan, Six path power up, and Juubi power up.

Hagoromo had far more noticeable power gains in his life than Hamura, you can't sit their and claim someone is close to another's  person power who had  5 Power boosts compared to His brother having only 2.
That is a logical Fallacy.

The creators of the movie out right stated they had no idea Naruto would be Getting Six path power...so it doesn't really matter because you don't have evidence of Naruto surpassing a Six path form on just pure training in a far lesser form.

Logically since Naruto doesn't have his Six path power and we are gauging how power he got over the course of 2 years he falls short of God tiers. 


8th Gate Guy>=<Hamura>Juubi obito>>Naruto KCM form from the last>TCM Toneri


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