# Limits of the Yata Mirror



## OutlawJohn (Jul 17, 2012)

Just gonna point out something that might be obvious, or at least should be obvious.

The Yata Mirror is one of the Three Sacred Treasures. The shield, held in the left hand of Itachi's Susano'o, has the ability to change its elemental properties in order to negate the affects of any elemental jutsu. That of course, leaves it up for question how well the shield handles Taijutsu or non-elemental techniques; but that's for another day. I'd like to discuss its limits.

Its my belief that its the destructive capacity of technique that matters more so than the nature of the technique.

The Yata Mirror's limit is highly debated in the KL and the BD, and for good reason, too. The Mirror is what determines whether or not Itachi, possibly the most discussed character in the forum, can tango with the upper echelons of Naruto characters. Die-hard Itachi fans will argue that the shield is invincible (it'll block highest level Jinton or Bijuudamas), while others will argue that due its lack of feats, its very weak. Its very odd, however, that everyone seems to totally ignore the clear limit that was set for it upon its appearance.

We'll note that it blocked Kirin; which is an impressive feat. After all, Kirin absolutely obliterated a hill that was pretty big before its destruction. I would like to note, however, that the hill is just a hill; its only a bit bigger than Itachi's full sized Susano'o, meaning that its nowhere near the size of the mountains obliterated by Bijuudamas or the 25 Susano'o's that Onoki's Jinton erased.

We must also note that Kirin is the *clear limit* of the Yata Mirror's defensive powers. Why, do I say this?

I say it because after being struck by Kirin, Itachi's Susano'o, alongside the Yata Mirror, was simple gone. Kishi gives us a nice aerial view of Itachi after Kirin strikes. Susano'o is nowhere to be found, and then it promptly begins to reform.

But of course, someone will make the argument that Susano'o didn't completely form before Kirin struck. That can't be true for two reasons:

1st) A skilled Uchiha can manifest their Susano'o instantly. Sasuke, at the time far less skilled than Itachi with Susano'o, was able to activate Susano'o and launch his arrows before Kakashi reacted. Kakashi was forced to react to the mid-flight path of the arrows.

2nd) We've seen the limits of the rib-cage version of Susano'o time, and time again. The Fourth Raikage chopped right through it, albeit it was a much smaller version. But it must also be taken into account that due to Amaterasu, the Fourth Raikage stopped his own momentum and thus weakened his blow. We'll also note that Madara's rib-cage Susano, which is as big and as thick (if not more so) than Sasuke's or Itachi's was penetrated both by the Fourth Raikage's enhanced punch. As impressive as the Raikage's enhanced strength is; its no match for the destructive capabilities of Kirin. If Itachi had simply activated ribcage Susano'o, then he would have been obliterated by Kirin.

That leads me to believe that Kishi drew a clear line as to where the Yata Mirror's limit is. Its obviously very high, seeing as Kirin is one of the most destructive techniques in the manga, but its capacity goes no farther than that. Any technique that can supply greater force than Kirin, is bound to kill whoever is behind the shield.


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## Chibason (Jul 17, 2012)

Absolutely No Limits

**


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## BlinkST (Jul 17, 2012)

Your perspective is off concerning the size of Susanoo in comparison with the Uchiha mountain that Kirin destroyed. There's also no way to determine what Kind of Susanoo was used to defend.


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## Mider T (Jul 17, 2012)

Kirin stopped it right?  Sky is the limit then.


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## Vice (Jul 17, 2012)

It's clearly not stopping a Biju Bomb or Chibaku Tensei. It having no limits is merely Itachi wank.


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## King Scoop (Jul 17, 2012)

Kirin was blocked by a incomplete Susanoo, not with Yata Mirror. Giving with we've seen with Madara's sword placing these so called limits on a Susanoo weapon is foolish. It was said it's unbeatable, so until it's beaten it can't be beat.


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## Chibason (Jul 17, 2012)

Vice said:


> It's clearly not stopping a Biju Bomb or Chibaku Tensei. It having no limits is merely Itachi wank.



But, isn't Kishi the one who established it as an invincible shield?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 17, 2012)

We don't know if it was formed in time against Kirin, and we don't know whether Kirin being natural lightning as opposed to a technique made from chakra affects how well the Yata Mirror blocks. 

We do know that the datebook and Zetsu hyped the Yata Mirror to be invincible, and ultimately, where people draw the line on their opinion depends on how much or how little they like Itachi.

Nevertheless, Kishimoto rarely bestows such gratuitous hype, the likes of which can really only be matched by Pain back in the day. As an Itachi fan, I think something like Chibaku Tensei is needed.​


			
				Kishimoto said:
			
		

> There's a reason why Susanoo can boast perfect flawlessness in its offense and defense: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands.





			
				Kishimoto said:
			
		

> and the Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy.





			
				Kishimoto said:
			
		

> In its left and right hands are held the unparalleled, wondrous Sacred Treasures* of virtues miraculous.





			
				Kishimoto said:
			
		

> The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.





			
				Zetsu said:
			
		

> That's another legendary item... I'm sure of it. It's called the "Yata no Kagami" ... a shield that can turn back any attack.





			
				Zetsu said:
			
		

> And combined with the sword of Totsuka... Itachi is completely invincible.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 17, 2012)

^^Or how much people understand hyperbole lol.


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## Neelix (Jul 17, 2012)

It can tank the universe.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 17, 2012)

Yeah, it being an obvious hyperbole is contradicted by the repetitiveness in both the datebook and the characters' comments. It's a top tier defense beyond just Susano'o (also a top tier defense.)​


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## Wanderlust (Jul 17, 2012)




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## Rosencrantz (Jul 17, 2012)

^^Kishimoto's track record with talking about how "absolute" a defense is or how unbeatable someone is has been... undesirable to say the least. Nothing in this manga is impenetrable.


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## BringerOfCarnage (Jul 17, 2012)

I doubt that the Yata Mirror blocked Kirin, because attacks that strike the Yata Mirror are reflected (bounce back)

If Kirin struck the Yata Mirror, it should have bounced back and obliterated Sasuke.


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## GKY (Jul 17, 2012)

It will probably never be tested. But, you've made a few errors in your assessment thus far.

Firstly, if Yata could really only block elemental attacks as you claim, then why was it able to block Sasukes kunai, Oro's hydra charging and explosive tags. Clearly, it can block physical attacks.

Secondly, it is generally accepted Itachi can't instantly activate full susano'o, and thus he couldn't have used Yata to block Kirin. If you reread the fight, when Itachi reactivates susano'o after getting up, it goes from the bone skeleton to the mid stage with the mirror to full susano'o. No way he could have went through all of them that quickly. He must have blocked Kirin with stage 1 susano'o (the ribcage), because clearly we didn't see anything at the point of Kirin striking. Therefore, the ribcage probably shielded Itachi but got obliterated in the process.

As for Yata's limit, it's really up to ones own interpretation. Thus far, Totsuka has shown it can seal anyone it pierces, and Yata never failed to block an attack. But it's like people that give rinnengan absorption, soul rip, etc.. no limits because they've never been shown, yet Yata can't get the same treatment because it would make Itachi too strong. I personally believe it can tank Jinton but get damaged in the process. So, that's my personal limit. 

Edit: It should be noted that a mirror should be stronger than what it is protecting. If Itachi's susano'o tanked Kirin, then all we can say is Yata can block attacks stronger than Kirin, but to an unknown degree.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 17, 2012)

This is  just sad the defense is stated to be  flawless until proven otherwise why can't poeple just accpt manga facts and move on?

If your fav char got yata mirrior know one would whine.

The best argument that can be made is that the mirrior is not 360 degrees and you can get around it.But then theres the defence of Susnaoo to worry about


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## ItachiNamikaze (Jul 17, 2012)

The only canon fact we have concerning its limit is that it can stop ANY attack. Until it is shown to have a limit to the strength of the jutus it cannot stop, its pure speculation that a bijudama would be able to overwhelm it. 

Non-elemental attacks are a whole other story, but until it is shown otherwise, we have to go by what is written in the manga and databook


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## Ch1pp (Jul 17, 2012)

That's inconclusively deductive at best.


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## PDQ (Jul 17, 2012)

The nature of Yata's mirror actually suggests it's stronger against the 5 elements than anything else because it uses opposing elements to counter it.  So combinations like Mokuton or Jinton should do the trick.



Strategoob said:


> Nevertheless, Kishimoto rarely bestows such gratuitous hype, the likes of which can really only be matched by Pain back in the day. As an Itachi fan, I think something like Chibaku Tensei is needed.[/indent]


Kishimoto *constantly* bestows gratuitous hype when it comes to databooks.  *That's what it's there for.*

Anything remotely strong will be described as indestructible or unstoppable.
Even Hayate's kenjutsu was described as such:  "Furthermore, the mighty attacks are so severe that *receiving a blow* *even from one* among the three will *inevitably* result in a *fatal wound*."
This is despite the very next page Baki casually taking a hit without any damage.
If he exaggerates about things he blatantly disproves the next page tons of times, he's not going to exaggerate less for things he actually wants to appear strong.

Obviously it's meant to be very high tier in strength, but invincible is obviously hyperbole.  Think of all the statements about Kimimaro's bone strength.  Orochimaru/Kabuto were saying how it was indestructible, the databooks reaffirmed that, yet when it came down to it, even his hardest bone broke.  With Sandaime Raikage he even explicitly set up a contradiction and proved the hype wrong(ironically the opposite direction of what was originally stated about how his defense was more renowned than his power).


			
				ItachiNamikaze said:
			
		

> The only canon fact we have concerning its limit is that it can stop ANY attack


I think you need to look up the word "fact".


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## Hossaim (Jul 18, 2012)

Bijudama, and a huge Jinton.


that;s it.


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## John Connor (Jul 18, 2012)

when discussing jutsu you need to ask 2 questions

does Minato use the jutsu?

does Itachi use the jutsu?

if the answer is yes to either one then Galactus is fodder


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## Tir (Jul 18, 2012)

Yata is full of hyperbole. If we're going by databook for something that has not been explained in the manga then, Hiruzen>>>Hashirama>>>>>Edo Madara. There was also a statement made by Kishi that Minato's power is unsurpassed and he's at the top of shinobi chain.

Of course no one would agree and refute those by hyperbole. The same can be applied to Yata. Heck, Rinnega was hyped to be the strongest eye, but look at the manga. Susano'o is destruction incarnates. Kyuubi was hyped of being capable of flattening mountain just by swiping his tail. Given on how strong he is, he could but that also could be a hyperbole.


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## Akitō (Jul 18, 2012)

There's very little that it can't block, really. A tailed-beast bomb might be able to destroy it, but I'm not entirely convinced just because I feel that Yata's Mirror is designed to beat techniques exactly like that: those single-line ordinary type of jutsu. Chibaku Tensei is a good tool to use against it because it doesn't rely on penetrating its target. Jinton is an elemental technique, something that the Databook implies Yata's Mirror is good at defending against. But then again, we saw it overwhelm Madara's Susano'o easily, so I'm not so sure it wouldn't at least damage Itachi's Susano'o.


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## Almondsand (Jul 18, 2012)

Keyword here is mirror... What do mirrors do reflect all things. Get it? Good.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2012)

Imo, Yata can defend against Perfect BM Bijuudama.


Ribcage Susano'o tanked Kirin.
Going by that, Yata should be able to tank much stronger attacks.


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## ueharakk (Jul 18, 2012)

@OP

I just wanted to say that the hill kirin busted was the size of a small mountain.  Here is a view of the entire compound.  Here is the size of the tiny roof compared to the bros.  The bros are so small they only take up a pixel.

Anyway, as for the thread, yaata definitely has limits, and in my opinion it has the same durability as sasuke's bow-shield with the added ability of being able to change its element.  Now why do I make this claim?  Here is why:

We see what happens when sasuke's bow shield takes a hit from danzou's windelement vaccum bullet.  The impact causes sasuke's shield to emit flames from it.

Now look at yaata's mirror when it is put in a similar situation against blunt force trauma.  It emits the same flames that sasuke's shield emits, just more.  

Due to this, I believe yaata's mirror is made up of the same substance that sasuke's susanoo shield is made up of, and thus should have comparable durability to the showings of sasuke's shield in future battles.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Imo, Yata can defend against Perfect BM Bijuudama.
> 
> 
> Ribcage Susano'o tanked Kirin.
> Going by that, Yata should be able to tank much stronger attacks.



because itachi hasn't instantly formed lvl3 susanoo on more than one occasion.  

As well as MS sasuke


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## SonicTron (Jul 18, 2012)

Chibason said:


> Absolutely No Limits
> 
> **



Gonna go with this until it gets proven otherwise in the manga


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## HK-47 (Jul 18, 2012)

I hope it's limits are defined soon, I'm getting so very tired of "Yata Mirror solos" at every turn...


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## PainHyuuga (Jul 18, 2012)

I simply thing people are underrating the Destructive power of Kirin.. It is more powerful than any form of ninjutsu that can be created by a human.. It is definitely comparable to Bijuurasengan


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## Stratogabo (Jul 18, 2012)

Saying the limit of the Yata Mirror is Kirin only because it's the only jutsu we have seen to be stopped by it, is completely absurd. Itachi was ill and weak, you can't compare his stamina and chakra pool to, say, a full-health Sasuke's, or Madara's. Why don't you think a little bit outside the box before stating stuff like that?


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## Tengu (Jul 18, 2012)

Yata can tank the big bang.


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## Agony (Jul 18, 2012)

it doesnt have any fucking limit.get over it.


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## Vice (Jul 18, 2012)

Yata's Mirror is only "invincible" to his fans because Itachi has it. If say... Jiraiya possessed it, hyperbole would all of a sudden be just that, hyperbole.


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## Rain (Jul 18, 2012)

Vice said:


> Yata's Mirror is only "invincible" to his fans because Itachi has it. If say... Jiraiya possessed it, hyperbole would all of a sudden be just that, hyperbole.



This guy... Do you really have to start flame wars in every thread about Itachi?

Also Yata probably has its limits, but i do think it can tank and deflect Shinra Tensei and stuff like that


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## Tragic (Jul 18, 2012)

Vice said:


> Yata's Mirror is only "invincible" to his fans because Itachi has it. If say... Jiraiya possessed it, hyperbole would all of a sudden be just that, hyperbole.



It might have it's limits but it was said that it was invincible, I don't see why we can't go with that. That's all that was shown, there is no way to prove that it isn't invincible. =/


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## Vergil642 (Jul 18, 2012)

Susanoo doesn't activate instantly. Kirin is the fastest attack in the manga. Unless you think Susanoo can fully materialise faster than lightning Itachi's was hit when not fully formed.

Also, not all Susanoo are equal. Sasuke's was broken by A, Madara's (admittedly bigger) was not. Sasuke's was opened up by Danzou's Fuutons, Madara's took Youtons and Jintons to take out.

Put simply, it is exceedingly unlikely that Yata's Mirror was used to block Kirin and exceedingly likely that short of perhaps Perfect Susanoo it's defensive capabilities are higher than Susanoo's, otherwise what's the point of the thing?


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## Whirlpool (Jul 18, 2012)

There is one thing that can penetrate the yata mirror.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi's 3000km cock slash


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2012)

ueharakk said:


> because itachi hasn't instantly formed lvl3 susanoo on more than one occasion.
> 
> As well as MS sasuke



oh, because those snakes were moving as fast as the lightning 

I know Susano'o activates really fast, but stage 2 and onward take a bit time(maybe a second or two). 

Remember the times Itachi protected Sasuke with Susano'o ? If it activated instantly, then he'd use stage 4 protect both himself and Sasuke. Flash activation is ribcage or the arm.

And the fact that we were shown only the ribcage kind of suggests that Itachi used that stage to block Kirin. The rest of it manifasted later.


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## Ghost (Jul 18, 2012)

I like how this forum says that preta path can absorb limitless amount of chakra when Yata Mirror can't block anything when it has been said to be able to block anything.


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## ueharakk (Jul 18, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> oh, because those snakes were moving as fast as the lightning
> 
> I know Susano'o activates really fast, but stage 2 and onward take a bit time(maybe a second or two).
> 
> ...



MS sasuke managed to erect full skeleton when danzou's sword-swing was an inch away from his neck.  MS itachi was more skilled at susanoo than sasuke was.  I'd say at the very least it was full skeletal.


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## Chuck (Jul 18, 2012)

yes, even I agree that the Yata Mirror's current limits are _Kirin-level_ attacks


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## HK-47 (Jul 18, 2012)

Tragic said:


> It might have it's limits but it was said that it was invincible, I don't see why we can't go with that. That's all that was shown, there is no way to prove that it isn't invincible. =/



Yet it was *said* Prime Hiruzen was the strongest shinobi of all time?

Or by Madara it was *said* that Hashirama was the strongest of all time?

Why can't we go with that? It was only *said*? That's what I tend to hear alot.

Hype when they want it, deal with it when they don't.


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## Rain (Jul 18, 2012)

HK-47 said:


> Yet it was *said* Prime Hiruzen was the strongest shinobi of all time?
> 
> Or by Madara it was *said* that Hashirama was the strongest of all time?
> 
> ...



Funny because people use exact same argument when Pain *said* that he would lose against Jiraiya, if latter knew about his secret.
Just pointing it out.

And, yes as i have said earlier, i do agree that Yata has its limits.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 18, 2012)

^^Pain someone that knows his own power and Jiraiya's powers extremely well said it. He even thinks extremely highly of himself. Clearly the statement is valid as opposed to one statement that got contradicted many times.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2012)

ueharakk said:


> MS sasuke managed to erect full skeleton when danzou's sword-swing was an inch away from his neck.  MS itachi was more skilled at susanoo than sasuke was.  I'd say at the very least it was full skeletal.



I think it was the stage just above mini ribcage version.

aka this one : inch away from his neck.
stage 2 I guess.


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## Richter (Jul 18, 2012)

HK-47 said:


> Yet it was *said* Prime Hiruzen was the strongest shinobi of all time?
> 
> Or by Madara it was *said* that Hashirama was the strongest of all time?
> 
> ...



Madara wasn't alive/in the Leaf during Hiruzen's Prime. I think the problem is everyone has different styles of debating. I was once on a forum where they took statements from the characters themselves as absolute proof even if every feat contradicted it.


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## OutlawJohn (Jul 18, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Imo, Yata can defend against Perfect BM Bijuudama.
> 
> 
> Ribcage Susano'o tanked Kirin.
> Going by that, Yata should be able to tank much stronger attacks.



Can you provide proof that ribcage Susano'o tanked Kirin. Because I talked about that in the OP and I tried to make it very clear that it was impossible, imo, for only ribcage Susano'o to have been used.


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## HK-47 (Jul 18, 2012)

Richter said:


> Madara wasn't alive/in the Leaf during Hiruzen's Prime. I think the problem is everyone has different styles of debating. I was once on a forum where they took statements from the characters themselves as absolute proof even if every feat contradicted it.



I was just using Hiruzen as an example.

Itachi-wankers are completely content with believing that Yata-Mirror has no limits, and while it is a formidable defense, that doesn't mean it is indestructible just because it was SAID to be.

While others who try to credit Hashirama's strength to his hype, they frequently get ridiculed and told "it's only hype, we don't know yet."

It's the same with Yata-Mirror, we just don't know.


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## Sketh (Jul 18, 2012)

If ribcage didn't tank it, and he cant activate full susanoo faster than a lighting bolt, then Itachi himself tanked it without susanoo and is therefore the most durable bastar-, er, I mean God in the manga.


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## OutlawJohn (Jul 18, 2012)

Sketh1995 said:


> If ribcage didn't tank it, and he cant activate full susanoo faster than a lighting bolt, then Itachi himself tanked it without susanoo and is therefore the most durable bastar-, er, I mean God in the manga.



I'd certainly imagined that angle. But I feared the backlash to greatly to state it.


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## Sketh (Jul 18, 2012)

OutlawJohn said:


> I'd certainly imagined that angle. But I feared the backlash to greatly to state it.



Had to be said sometime....

Come at me, backlash!


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## egressmadara (Jul 18, 2012)

Kirin's the limit, then.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't think Yata no Kagami can deal with multiple different high level techniques at once. It has to change its nature to block an attack, after all, but if each attack is of a different element, no element, or even a Kekkei Genkai, it can't adapt in time. And thus would be overwhelmed and shattered.


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## DremolitoX (Jul 18, 2012)

The yata mirror is without limits. Sorry op


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## Nikushimi (Jul 18, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't think Yata no Kagami can deal with multiple different high level techniques at once. It has to change its nature to block an attack, after all, but if each attack is of a different element, no element, or even a Kekkei Genkai, it can't adapt in time. And thus would be overwhelmed and shattered.



The third databook says that the Yata no Kagami can block physical and spiritual (i.e., non-Ninjutsu) attacks.

Furthermore, no limit was placed on its elemental recomposition ability; the entry simply states that it alters its nature to negate the opposing attack.

The simple truth is that the limits of the mirror have not been explored.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> The yata mirror is without limits. Sorry op


Itachi himself said every jutsu has a weakness, every jutsu has a limit. Yata Mirror is no different, especially since we know how it works.



Nikushimi said:


> The third databook says that the Yata no Kagami can block physical and spiritual (i.e., non-Ninjutsu) attacks.
> 
> Furthermore, no limit was placed on its elemental recomposition ability; the entry simply states that it alters its nature to negate the opposing attack.
> 
> The simple truth is that the limits of the mirror have not been explored.


I can accept it can block one high level attack (ninjutsu or taijutsu), but what about three at once? Five? 10? A hundred?


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## DremolitoX (Jul 18, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi himself said every jutsu has a weakness, every jutsu has a limit. Yata Mirror is no different, especially since we know how it works.



Show me an attack that that could break yata, with* PROOOF*, please.

No speculations, or maybes, but proof


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## OutlawJohn (Jul 18, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> The third databook says that the Yata no Kagami can block physical and spiritual (i.e., non-Ninjutsu) attacks.
> 
> Furthermore, no limit was placed on its elemental recomposition ability; the entry simply states that it alters its nature to negate the opposing attack.
> 
> The simple truth is that the limits of the mirror have not been explored.



You and Strategoob are placing far too much emphasis on databook hyperboles. If all databook hyperboles were true, then we'd have a lot of 'undefeatable' techniques.

If the limits have not been explored, can you please explain to me why Itachi is drawn uncovered by Susano'o after he is struck by Kirin. Or are you of the belief that Itachi only summoned the ribcage version of Susano'o?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> Show me an attack that that could break yata, with* PROOOF*, please.
> 
> No speculations, or maybes, but proof


Kirin already has done so. And again, you miss the point of my argument entirely.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't believe that Kirin blasted through Yata. 

With that being said, Itachi hasn't shown to be able to able to instantly use a fully formed Susanoo, only a partial Susanoo. Yata Mirror comes with Stage 4 Susanoo. 

With that out of the way, there are ways to deal with Yata Mirror (in no order): 

*1.* Yata can only protect from one direction at a time, like any other shield. 
*2.* Yata isn't attached to Susanoo, it can be forced away. 
*3.* Yata is said to protect against attacks, but there are jutsus and methods that are passive or supplementary, which provides nothing to block. 
*4.* Yata can't protect against everything. Madara's meteors for instance, it's possible that Yata could protect him from the impact, but it doesn't stop him from buried under hundreds of feat of rubble or stop the ground from collapsing from under him. 
*5.* It's implied by the databook that Yata can only stop one type of attack at a time. It's power is described as changing it's property to counter a single attack, but it doesn't say anything about taking on multiple properties and it would make sense that it can't: One shield, one attack, one property. 

It doesn't help that Yata is pretty much featless, aside from blocking explosive seals, and anything relating to it's defensive ability is potentially hyperbolic, like Gaara's "Ultimate Defense" which has shown time and time again to just be exceptionally good. Itachi himself said that nothing's perfect, that everything has a weakness.



DremolitoX said:


> Show me an attack that that could break yata, with* PROOOF*, please.
> 
> No speculations, or maybes, but proof



Itachi fans and their love of no limit fallacies, they even ignore what their king says. He says that _nothing's_ perfect, _everything_ has a weakness.


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## Skywalker (Jul 18, 2012)

Hopefully we'll see it's limits eventually, that'd be nice.


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## Sketh (Jul 18, 2012)

Itachi will show its feats when he solo's the Juubi when he gets revived again. 10 tailed bijuudama BLOCKED like a boss.


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## Almondsand (Jul 18, 2012)

Sketh1995 said:


> If ribcage didn't tank it, and he cant activate full susanoo faster than a lighting bolt, then Itachi himself tanked it without susanoo and is therefore the most durable bastar-, er, I mean God in the manga.



This. I mean we saw the Kabuto fight and the fastest thing to pull up is a stage 1 single limb or ribcage. Itachi displayed this..


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## ueharakk (Jul 18, 2012)

Judging by its appearance and what this attack did to it, it seems comparable in durability to sasuke's bow-shield.  

So yaata is basically sasuke's bow-shield + ability to change its element.  That is its durability.


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## Almondsand (Jul 18, 2012)

^ nope try again.


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## HK-47 (Jul 18, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> Show me an attack that that could break yata, with* PROOOF*, please.
> 
> No speculations, or maybes, but proof



Show me that yata can't be broken, with *PROOOF*, please.

No speculations, or maybes, but proof.


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## ueharakk (Jul 18, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> ^ nope try again.



elaborate please

and itachi has formed his lvl3 susanoo in an instant.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 18, 2012)

The notion that Itachi blocked a super powered Kirin with the ribcage Susano'o is absurd(SaiSt and Blinx have readily debunked the notion that Madara's Susano'o has better defensive feats), but it is equally absurd to insist that Itachi must have used the armored Susano'o with Yata no Kagami when neither Itachi nor MS Sasuke ever used more than the complete Susano'o instantly. It is, in my opinion, probably the complete Susano'o which took on Kirin.

But based on the high level and repetitive hype that Yata no Kagami has, and the simple fact that is a defense well beyond the armored Susano'o (which we have yet to see beaten) leads me to believe that it has no limits until you hit the level of full powered Juubi. However, that doesn't mean it doesn't mean it has no weaknesses. It can only block one direction at a time over a limited area, can be separated from Susano'o, have the user separated from Susano'o, bypassed by any number of indirect attacks, and quite possibly be overwhelmed by a number of high level attacks at once if it can't alter its composition appropriately for all of them simultaneously.


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## DremolitoX (Jul 18, 2012)

HK-47 said:


> Show me that yata can't be broken, with *PROOOF*, please.
> 
> No speculations, or maybes, but proof.



The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim, my boy


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## Vice (Jul 18, 2012)

Whatever. Since hyperbole is now manga fact, Helmsplitter beats it.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 18, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi himself said every jutsu has a weakness, every jutsu has a limit. Yata Mirror is no different, especially since we know how it works.



The Yata no Kagami is an item, not a Jutsu.



> I can accept it can block one high level attack (ninjutsu or taijutsu), but what about three at once? Five? 10? A hundred?



What part of "Its limits haven't been shown, so we don't know" is too difficult for you?

We don't even know the mirror's origins; some people say it's just a part of Susano'o, while others (myself included) maintain that it's probably an added piece of equipment.



OutlawJohn said:


> You and Strategoob are placing far too much emphasis on databook hyperboles. If all databook hyperboles were true, then we'd have a lot of 'undefeatable' techniques.



Who is placing emphasis on what?

I said its limits haven't been explored. Ergo, *we don't know*.



> If the limits have not been explored, can you please explain to me why Itachi is drawn uncovered by Susano'o after he is struck by Kirin. Or are you of the belief that Itachi only summoned the ribcage version of Susano'o?



The latter.

Look at when Itachi reformed Susano'o; the ribcage is the only portion that flickered on like a light. The rest grew over it more slowly.

Madara and Sasuke have usually been the same way, excluding Sasuke's full Susano'o activation feat against the Zetsu platoon (although there is no way to quantify the time it took for that to happen).


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## HK-47 (Jul 18, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim, my boy



That's always been such a terrible/wrong saying and condescending emote.


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 18, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> The Yata no Kagami is an item, not a Jutsu.


It looks just like sasuke's bow shield, I think it is just part of susanoo.



Nikushimi said:


> Look at when Itachi reformed Susano'o; the ribcage is the only portion that flickered on like a light. The rest grew over it more slowly.
> 
> Madara and Sasuke have usually been the same way, excluding Sasuke's full Susano'o activation feat against the Zetsu platoon (although there is no way to quantify the time it took for that to happen).


MS Sasuke formed full skeletal susanoo this quickly.
Edo itachi formed lvl 3 susanoo in an instant.

As well as full skeletal in an instant.

Due to this along with other durability showings of susanoo, the massive appearance of kirin, and itachi's ability to manifest lvl3 in an instant, it's pretty safe to say that lvl3 took kirin, not ribcage, and not fully armored with yaata.


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## OutlawJohn (Jul 19, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> The latter.
> 
> Look at when Itachi reformed Susano'o; the ribcage is the only portion that flickered on like a light. The rest grew over it more slowly.
> 
> Madara and Sasuke have usually been the same way, excluding Sasuke's full Susano'o activation feat against the Zetsu platoon (although there is no way to quantify the time it took for that to happen).



But that logic is flawed for two reasons; as I stated in the OP.

1st) We've seen ribcage Susano'o be penetrated several times. First when the Fourth Raikage gave it his Horizontal Chop, and second when Madara's Susano'o, which is arguably bigger and thicker than either Sasuke's or Itachi's, was penetrated by the Raikage's Onoki enhanced punch and later Tsunade's fists. None of those attacks is even _close_ to the punching power of Kirin.

2nd) Susano'o can be activated instantly. We see that when Sasuke, who has just received his Mangekyo Sharingan, is able to summon his Susano'o in ribcage form when Danzo's sword was half an inch from his neck. We also see it when Sasuke summons his full Susano'o and fires an arrow so fast that Kakashi only reacts to the movement of the arrows.

Even Madara's ultimate Susano'o, a chakra construct of immense proportions, was activated fully formed near instantly.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2012)

OutlawJohn said:


> Can you provide proof that ribcage Susano'o tanked Kirin. Because I talked about that in the OP and I tried to make it very clear that it was impossible, imo, for only ribcage Susano'o to have been used.



It was stage 2. The one appeared around Itachi after he got up.

By ribcage I don't mean the mini one.


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## John Connor (Jul 19, 2012)

its really REALLY rare for a Susano-o to devolve during battle so IMO Itachi's skeleton Susnano-o almost tanked Kirin

Itachi had his cloak completely blown off and suffered minor burns all over his body after Kirin

Sasuke devolved Susano-o during the Kage summit because it was physically impossible for him to maintain high levels of Susano-o after he fled Gaara

Itachi was able to keep increasing Susano-o after he got hit by Kirin


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## Sketh (Jul 19, 2012)

Vice said:


> Whatever. Since hyperbole is now manga fact, Helmsplitter beats it.



DatJinin


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## Toxic Adyta (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm not entirely sure about the true limits of the Yata Mirror, but just from its ability to alter its Nature composition or _seishitsu henka_ we can at least infer the following things:

1. There is likely no elemental jutsu that can trump the Mirror.
2. The ability to utilize Earth element may imply it can, at the least, have a strength equal to Kakuzu's Domu at any one time, except against Raiton attacks.
3. Due to the Water element, it may have the abilit to take whatever form necessary to block an attack (such as The Third Hokage's flame bullet thingy)
4. It should be able to convert itself into any element to mimic its properties.

According to the descriptions of the Yata Mirror that Kishimoto has given us, both within and outside the manga, it appears to be primarily a Yin/Seishin related object. Being the power of imagination, it should be able to do almost anything so long as enough energy/Shintai can be applied to properly realize the concept needed.

My guess is that, so long as Itachi has an adequate or equal amount of chakra in his Susanoo to the attack targeting him, the Yata Mirror will block any technique.  The only limiting factor is Itachi's chakra. The energy required to fully negate a jutsu must come from somewhere, and I can only see that as coming from the holder of the Mirror, unless it was somehow imbued with ridiculous amounts of chakra on its own.

That's just my personal view.


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (Jul 19, 2012)

Anything that does not involve an element can break it


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## Closet Pervert (Jul 19, 2012)

It can deflect anything. If the universe were to end by all creation eventually gravitating inwards until there's nothing left but a singularity, Yata mirror will be outside of it.


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## Bloo (Jul 19, 2012)

Itachi couldn't have summoned complete Susano'o with Yata Mirror in under 1/1000th of a second. The Susano'o that blocked Kirin had to be base Susano'o, meaning Yata mirror is even stronger. According to the manga and the databook it can block anything. Until shown otherwise, it can block anything.


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## DremolitoX (Jul 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Itachi couldn't have summoned complete Susano'o with Yata Mirror in under 1/1000th of a second. The Susano'o that blocked Kirin had to be base Susano'o, meaning Yata mirror is even stronger. According to the manga and the databook it can block anything. Until shown otherwise, it can block anything.



That is so true. You are so wise


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## OutlawJohn (Jul 19, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was stage 2. The one appeared around Itachi after he got up.
> 
> By ribcage I don't mean the mini one.



I realize that's what you meant. What I'd like is proof.

1) After all, greater stages of Susano'o have been penetrated by attacks much less powerful than Kirin.

2) Susano'o can be summoned near-instantly (ie. Sasuke v. Kakashi/ Sasuke and Itachi v. Kabuto/ and Madara v. Gokages)


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## Summers (Jul 19, 2012)

Has anyone here seen Senju clans thread on it. Find it. Read it. It pissed of all the fans, cause they could not make an argument against it.


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## Closet Pervert (Jul 19, 2012)

Summers said:


> Has anyone here seen Senju clans thread on it. Find it. Read it. It pissed of all the fans, cause they could not make an argument against it.


The one about one of the Swordsmen? That was beautiful.


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## JPongo (Jul 20, 2012)

The main limit of Yata's Mirror was that it was described as such by a Uchiha-wanking fool in Zetsu.

What does a wood/plant clone know anyway?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2012)

OutlawJohn said:


> I realize that's what you meant. What I'd like is proof.
> 
> 1) After all, greater stages of Susano'o have been penetrated by attacks much less powerful than Kirin.


The only time that happened was when Danzo's fuuton ripped through Sasuke's stage 3 susano'o through its back. 
It simply left an opening, it didn't completely destroy Susano'o.

I also remember Madara's stage 1 getting partially broken by Susano'o + backpack Onoki Raikage combo. Which is perhaps one of the strongest physical attacks up to date.

You can call it whatever you want but there is nothing that suggests Itachi used the full one either, because we didn't see susano'o during the time of the impact.
So you may aswell ask yourself for the evidence.




> 2) Susano'o can be summoned near-instantly (ie. Sasuke v. Kakashi/ Sasuke and Itachi v. Kabuto/ and Madara v. Gokages)


Kirin's speed is way beyond the attacks Susano'o recieved in other occasions.

And like I said earlier, if the full susano'o could be activated faster than a lightning strike, then Itachi could have used it against Muki tensei and white rage, instead of confining himself with just the arm.


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## Summers (Jul 20, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> The one about one of the Swordsmen? That was beautiful.



Indeed it was, so much ruckus was caused by Itachi fans that they got the thread closed. I'm going to repost it one-day for Senju-clan, when I am sure Itachi will stay dead, and we have all we need to know about his abilities.


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## Rios (Jul 20, 2012)

Its kinda like me saying I have infinite stamina and can hump you till you die from exhaustion. You may not believe it but son, there is no way to prove me wrong.


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## machiavelli2009 (Jul 21, 2012)

it obviously has limits
clearly it will be defined when sasuke fights naruto and it is shown pawning FRS
as stated its true power is reveled face against elemental attacks. 
against other types of attacks its simply another layer and can be broken by enough power. 
again this depends on what kishi wants and the character
please do not be at all *surprised when sasuke is shown swatting in a bijuubomb with susanoo. or casually using yata mirror to block it. *
its kishi people, _*the king of inconsistency *_


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## Jad (Jul 21, 2012)

Yata mirror should only defend against Physical and Ninjutsu techniques. Something that disrupts 'nature' to an effect could pass through Yata Mirror. But I have a better time of using this argument against the actual Sasunoo form than Yata Mirror, which is boasted to deflect everything by the majority of users.

But the theory against Yata Mirror can be debunked if you think Kirin wasn't a 'ninjutsu' technique but actual lighting with no Chakara.



Summers said:


> Indeed it was, so much ruckus was caused by Itachi fans that they got the thread closed. I'm going to repost it one-day for Senju-clan, when I am sure Itachi will stay dead, and we have all we need to know about his abilities.



Can you post it so I can see it/read it.


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## Black☆Star (Jul 21, 2012)

Jad said:


> Can you post it so I can see it/read it.



I think it's this one


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## Vice (Jul 21, 2012)

Hahaha. There's no reason why that thread should be closed, in fact it should be stickied.

I like how all the counter arguments basically consisted of "nuh-uh, Kishi said so. Derp."


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## Summers (Jul 21, 2012)

Jad said:


> Yata mirror should only defend against Physical and Ninjutsu techniques. Something that disrupts 'nature' to an effect could pass through Yata Mirror. But I have a better time of using this argument against the actual Sasunoo form than Yata Mirror, which is boasted to deflect everything by the majority of users.
> 
> But the theory against Yata Mirror can be debunked if you think Kirin wasn't a 'ninjutsu' technique but actual lighting with no Chakara.
> 
> ...





Warning, if an intense Itachi fan, do yourself a favor and Ignore it.

post #7002!


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## machiavelli2009 (Jul 21, 2012)

i actually went to reacquaint myself with senjuclan's thread and almost everyone failed to understand a very simply point that kishi has made. *"its called character point of view"*
In any defense described didnt it ever surprise anyone that kishi never directly stated in an interview ill make this defense unbeatable??

1010 said neji defense was absolute, because she had seen nothing better. 
she saw gaara's and compared them. thats the benchmark for byakugan's defense, 
of all defenses 1010 has seen those are the best. *her point of view* her attacks can't get through so for her its the absolute defense. Surely nagato wont describe those defenses like that

*same for zetsu and itachi scenario. *

*same for suigetsu and the bluntsword. no defense he has seen or he knows can block it. *

*same for doton domui*

what you have to ask yourself is, have those characters seen every defense and every attack?
so its not a retcon by kishi or unnecessary hyperboles, its simply characters vantage point. 

surely to the likes of 1010 360 field of vision with a 50m interception radius is absolute but does that compare to susanoo or doton domui???


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## Edo Madara (Dec 7, 2014)

Itachi said that every jutsu has weakness


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## RAGING BONER (Dec 7, 2014)

wtf u edo tensei an old ass thread like this for?


u should damn well know that Yata is invincible.


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## shade0180 (Dec 8, 2014)

Necro? Necro.


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## BlinkST (Dec 8, 2014)

And Kishi concluded the manga with no fucks given.


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## Addy (Dec 8, 2014)

clicks thread, thinks there is new info. 

sees its a  necro


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## Blaze Release (Dec 8, 2014)

Forget the hype for a second. I would have thought the clue was in  the name "Yata mirror". You know, when you stand in front of a mirror you kinda see your reflection. On top of this we have even seen two ninjutsu's which has produced mirror images (counters) for an opponents jutsu. Both these techniques have also been given the mirror tag.



Ablaze said:


> The name mirror gives us great scope in understanding just how the mirror works along with. if you stand in front of a mirror and throw a punch, your mirror image does same. Now we have seen two mirror based techniques that follow this logic Nagato's Mirrored Sudden Attacker Technique
> 
> Yagura's Water Release: Water Mirror Technique
> 3
> ...






Almondsand said:


> Keyword here is mirror... What do mirrors do reflect all things. Get it? Good.



Something so simple yet difficult it seems to grasp.


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## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

i would have to say in BD the vast majority of people that debate it are morons and hypocrites

preta has no limit fallacy despite, it being unable to absorb wood dragon which itself absorbs techniques yet somehow due to lack of feats yata is useless 

like you stated OP. kishi set very very clear limits for it. elemental techniques, it nullifies them by turning to the opposite element

its clear limitation is simple. singular elements! so no not jinton or a KKG element. it nullifies elements by transforming to the superior one  

the same way wood dragon absorbs chakra yet was trolled by BD. 

thank you OP. its best feat is defending against kirin an elemental blast. kudos

kirin is lightning which is an element. the fact that it wasnt modified by a ninja chakra to create said element. doesnt make lightning not an element. 

it blocked it, the same way madara gumbai would. 

funny how people put further restrictions on techniques when kishi already did. yata is only useful at nullifying elemental attacks. therefore it serves no purpose in blocking BD or taijutsu attacks


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## JPongo (Dec 8, 2014)

Ablaze said:


> Forget the hype for a second. I would have thought the clue was in  the name "Yata mirror". You know, when you stand in front of a mirror you kinda see your reflection. On top of this we have even seen two ninjutsu's which has produced mirror images (counters) for an opponents jutsu. Both these techniques have also been given the mirror tag.
> 
> Something so simple yet difficult it seems to grasp.



Hey while we are analogizing, what happens when a mirror encounters too much force?

It shatters right?


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## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

it certainly shatters

yata in no way shape or form can it counter Bijuudama

same way i doubt gumbai can or yagura water mirror or kisame daikodan 

though of all i them i would say kisame daikodan has the best shot seeing that he is a bijuu hunter and well designed to beat them 

every single jutsu has a limit, i have no idea why people even bring up other non element related stuff when talkign about yata mirror. kishi clearly said elemental attacks for a reason. 

madara giant katon would be easily trolled by yata mirror that however doesnt remotely mean it would have any use if ura renge combo was used on it.


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

Mider T said:


> Kirin stopped it right?  Sky is the limit then.



I don't think Kirin ever touched Yata's Mirror. A nanosecond before Itachi was struck, Susano'o wasn't activated. It more than likely hit Susano'o itself as it was beginning to form, which is why it shattered it and had to reform. While it was reforming, we don't see Yata's Mirror materialize for longer than it took for the lightning to strike Itachi.



> what happens when a mirror encounters too much force?
> 
> It shatters right?


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 8, 2014)

Great example. Now post the impact resistance stats on acrylic and other "shatterproof" mirrors and also read .


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## Itachі (Dec 8, 2014)

The Yata Mirror would reflect even the strongest elemental attacks. The Manga's made it clear that it reflects the power of an elemental attack, there's nothing to suggest that it wouldn't. However, non-elemental attacks like a sword slash from Madara's Susano'o or Bijudama would destroy it.


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 8, 2014)

King Scoop said:


> Kirin was blocked by a incomplete Susanoo, not with Yata Mirror. Giving with we've seen with Madara's sword placing these so called limits on a Susanoo weapon is foolish. It was said it's unbeatable, so until it's beaten it can't be beat.


It can be beaten by Jinin Akebino using  as it can break ALL defenses, and Yata Mirror is a defense. If Kishimoto intended Yata Mirror to be unbeatable he must've retconned it in the war arc when he introduced the Swordsmen.

Jinin Akebino thus could destroy any character in the manga because of Kabutowari, except perhaps Muu who could only be defeated by Oonoki.


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## JaggerJax (Dec 8, 2014)

The anti-Itatchi people are just as much a fandom as the itatchi fans are... But I think the anti-itatchi fandom is even more erroneous and exaggerated in their claims. 

Also, just because someone thinks the Yata mirror can handle the Biju-damas doesn't mean they are necessarily an Itatchi fan. 

The manga calls Itatchi with his mirror "invincible", and is called this by the child of Kaguya no less. Even with super abilities like Yata and Izanami, we still don't know where to place him. The best We can do is say hes around Sanin or Better. How better potentially?........ hard to say. 

That being said, I don't find it that hard to believe he could dance with ET Maddy.


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## Itachі (Dec 8, 2014)

JaggerJax said:


> The manga calls Itatchi with his mirror "invincible", and is called this by the child of Kaguya no less. Even with super abilities like Yata and Izanami, we still don't know where to place him. The best We can do is say hes around Sanin or Better. How better potentially?........ hard to say.



The Manga has hyped characters like Hiruzen way too much, I wouldn't take portrayal or hype too seriously. The facts matter, Black Zetsu saying Itachi is invincible while in that form is not important, Black Zetsu saying that Yata Mirror repels Ninjutsu _is_.


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## babaGAReeb (Dec 8, 2014)

the yata mirrors weakness is kishi himselfs face

he is so ugly  that the mirror will shatter if he looks into it


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Great example. Now post the impact resistance stats on acrylic and other "shatterproof" mirrors and also read .



Well I'm glad someone took _that_ seriously.

The point that I was making, which you missed, is that glassless mirrors don't "shatter". Making that comparison to an actual mirror is false because only _glass_ mirrors actually "shatter".

It's not a trait all mirrors posses, is the essence of what I'm saying.


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## Deleted member 23 (Dec 8, 2014)

JPongo said:


> The main limit of Yata's Mirror was that it was described as such by a Uchiha-wanking fool in Zetsu.
> 
> What does a wood/plant clone know anyway?



This is hilarious in hindsight.


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## babaGAReeb (Dec 8, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Well I'm glad someone took _that_ seriously.
> 
> The point that I was making, which you missed, is that glassless mirrors don't "shatter". Making that comparison to an actual mirror is false because only _glass_ mirrors actually "shatter".
> 
> It's not a trait all mirrors posses, is the essence of what I'm saying.


lel its funny how u think an idiot like kishi would be aware of dat

to his puny brain all mirrors are equally shatterable


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 8, 2014)

JaggerJax said:


> The anti-Itatchi people are just as much a fandom as the itatchi fans are... But I think the anti-itatchi fandom is even more erroneous and exaggerated in their claims.
> 
> Also, just because someone thinks the Yata mirror can handle the Biju-damas doesn't mean they are necessarily an Itatchi fan.
> 
> ...


We can debate Itachi's powers from significantly weaker than Jiraiya to pre-Tsunade Hokage level, but i think the fact that Itachi never attempted to dispose of neither Pain nor Tobi while she lived even though she was supposed to protect Konoha and love it like more than anyone else did and those two (or at least the latter one) being a threat to her precious Sasuke, should put at least some apparent limits to her powers.

Madara, then, is in a whole different ballpark.


Itachі said:


> The Manga has hyped characters like Hiruzen way too much, I wouldn't take portrayal or hype too seriously. The facts matter, Black Zetsu saying Itachi is invincible while in that form is not important, Black Zetsu saying that Yata Mirror repels Ninjutsu _is_.


Well said (except the part about Hiruzen). It's not like Kishi even knew what Zetsu was at the time. Even as late as during the war arc, BZ was "the land itself". So his authority as Kaguya's child and evil mastermind probably doesn't go back that far.


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## Itachі (Dec 8, 2014)

Closet Pervert said:


> Madara, then, is in a whole different ballpark.
> Well said (except the part about Hiruzen). It's not like Kishi even knew what Zetsu was at the time. Even as late as during the war arc, BZ was "the land itself". So his authority as Kaguya's child and evil mastermind probably doesn't go back that far.



Hiruzen's abilities are pretty lackluster for being hyped so much. Although Kishi gave him a lot more in Part 2, that 5 elements counter was pretty sweet.

Hype is complete bullshit man, I remember when both Jiraiya and Orochimaru thought Kabuto to be on Kakashi's level. 



Closet Pervert said:


> We can debate Itachi's powers from significantly weaker than Jiraiya to pre-Tsunade Hokage level, but i think the fact that Itachi never attempted to dispose of neither Pain nor Tobi while she lived even though she was supposed to protect Konoha and love it like more than anyone else did and those two (or at least the latter one) being a threat to her precious Sasuke, should put at least some apparent limits to her powers.



Itachi thought that Obito was Madara, the second most powerful Shinobi to ever live. I doubt Itachi knew enough to dispose of Pein, only Obito and Konan were tight with Nagato.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 8, 2014)

Manga has ended.

It has no limits 



*Spoiler*: __


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

babaGAReeb said:


> lel its funny how u think an idiot like kishi would be aware of dat
> 
> to his puny brain all mirrors are equally shatterable



I would argue this but Kishi is in fact an idiot.

A rich idiot, but an idiot nonetheless


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 8, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Well I'm glad someone took _that_ seriously.
> 
> The point that I was making, which you missed, is that glassless mirrors don't "shatter". Making that comparison to an actual mirror is false because only _glass_ mirrors actually "shatter".
> 
> It's not a trait all mirrors posses, is the essence of what I'm saying.


The point I was making that you missed is that given enough force or the right kind of force anything will shatter and puffery is the explicit exaggeration of product capabilities for sales purposes. The term "shatterproof" is simply puffery, nothing more. 

This brings us back to Susanoo and it's chakra construct known as the Yata Mirror. We saw two Juubi Jinchuuriki utterly obliterate Susanoo at least three times. It stands to reason Yata Mirror would fare no better than it's parent technique against such an onslaught of superior force.


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

CyberianGinseng said:


> The point I was making that you missed is that given enough force or the right kind of force anything will shatter and puffery is the explicit exaggeration of product capabilities for sales purposes. The term "shatterproof" is simply puffery, nothing more.
> 
> This brings us back to Susanoo and it's chakra construct known as the Yata Mirror. We saw two Juubi Jinchuuriki utterly obliterate Susanoo at least three times. It stands to reason Yata Mirror would fare no better than it's parent technique against such an onslaught of superior force.



Susano'o is not a parent technique to Yata's Mirror. Yata's Mirror isn't even a technique. It's an item independent from Susano'o, which is superior to it in terms of defense. That's _why_ Itachi was called "invincible". Susano'o itself can't do the shit it does.

That said, outside of elemental techniques and Taijutsu, we've no idea what its limits are. All we have to go by is the DB saying it has none, while the manga also shows none. This isn't to say it has none, but we can't assume any limits either.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 8, 2014)

JPongo said:


> Hey while we are analogizing, what happens when a mirror encounters too much force?
> 
> It shatters right?



If you read what i said, it should reflect whatever force that is thrown towards it.
To answer your question, it depends. If its a spiritual weapon with no physical form, not sure how it can be shattered.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 8, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> *Susano'o is not a parent technique to Yata's Mirror.* Yata's Mirror isn't even a technique. It's an item independent from Susano'o, which is superior to it in terms of defense. That's _why_ Itachi was called "invincible". Susano'o itself can't do the shit it does.
> 
> That said, outside of elemental techniques and Taijutsu, we've no idea what its limits are. All we have to go by is the DB saying it has none, while the manga also shows none. This isn't to say it has none, but we can't assume any limits either.


So goes the mantra. Do you have a databook entry or manga entry proving that? It's possible I missed the entry in the new databook, which I haven't kept up with, so enlighten me.

Otherwise, Yata mirror springs from Susanoo. It has never been seen outside of Susanoo. It has no independent existence just like Sasuke's bow shield and Indra's Arrow and you have no evidence otherwise. Misconstruing and speculating on Orochimaru's and Zetsu's words does not evidence make. Given that its size is variable you'd have long since seen it outside Susanoo if it weren't a Susanoo construct, due to Susanoo's massive ass tax on chakra and apparently life-force.

What we can certainly say is that Susanoo is obsolete when compared to any Juubi Jinchuuriki tech. Almost all of Susanoo's tech is obsolete in that comparison. The exceptions are Kamui and Sasuke's warp tech. Yata does not count among those.


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

CyberianGinseng said:


> So goes the mantra. Do you have a databook entry or manga entry proving that? It's possible I missed the entry in the new databook, which I haven't kept up with, so enlighten me.
> 
> Otherwise, Yata mirror springs from Susanoo. It has never been seen outside of Susanoo. It has no independent existence just like Sasuke's bow shield and Indra's Arrow and you have no evidence otherwise. Misconstruing and speculating on Orochimaru's and Zetsu's words does not evidence make. Given that its size is variable you'd have long since seen it outside Susanoo if it weren't a Susanoo construct, due to Susanoo's massive ass tax on chakra and apparently life-force.
> 
> What we can certainly say is that Susanoo is obsolete when compared to any Juubi Jinchuuriki tech. Almost all of Susanoo's tech is obsolete in that comparison. The exceptions are Kamui and Sasuke's warp tech. Yata does not count among those.



It's also not a part of Sasuke's or Madara's Susano'o either. They were referred to as separate items that had a reputation _far_ preceding Itachi's Susano'o. Even Orochimaru knew about the existence of it, and was awestruck that Itachi had them in his possession.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 8, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> It's also not a part of Sasuke's or Madara's Susano'o either. They were referred to as separate items that had a reputation _far_ preceding Itachi's Susano'o. Even Orochimaru knew about the existence of it, and was awestruck that Itachi had them in his possession.


Of course it had been seen before. Guess what context it was most likely seen before in? Indra or another Indra descendant used it. Guess what he most likely used it with? Susanoo. That makes it a Susanoo construct as there is literally no evidence saying it is anything other than yet another Susanoo construct, just like Sasue's bow shield. *Wonder what cave Sasuke got that bow shield out of?*


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## JaggerJax (Dec 8, 2014)

Closet Pervert said:


> We can debate Itachi's powers from significantly weaker than Jiraiya to pre-Tsunade Hokage level, but i think the fact that Itachi never attempted to dispose of neither Pain nor Tobi while she lived even though she was supposed to protect Konoha and love it like more than anyone else did and those two (or at least the latter one) being a threat to her precious Sasuke, should put at least some apparent limits to her powers.
> .



I think your wrong.I think one of the reasons Itatchi remained out of the frey was because he had one plan, and that was to die at Sasuke's hand. Itatchi had essentially already payed the price for Konoha and he needed to make sure his final encounter with Sasuke was a success. There is also the possibility he didn't know how deep Atkatsuki went. If he had attempted to kill Pain or Tobi, 
It could of simply been he didn't want to blow his cover until he found out the true powers behind akatsuki. Even if he couldn't ascertain if he would win for sure against tobi or Pain , he couldnt take the risk because of fulfilling his destiny with Sasuke.

Itatchi defeated Orochimaru easily so that makes him above or on par with Tsunade and the Sanin.


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Of course it had been seen before. Guess what context it was most likely seen before in? Indra or another Indra descendant used it. Guess what he most likely used it with? Susanoo. That makes it a Susanoo construct as there is literally no evidence saying it is anything other than yet another Susanoo construct, just like Sasue's bow shield. *Wonder what cave Sasuke got that bow shield out of?*



You don't know this.

In fact, Sasuke and Madara are the ones with ties to Indra, being his reincarnations, not Itachi, and _neither_ of them have any special named items for their Susano'o with properties nearly as divine as Yata and Totsuka.

Sasuke's and Madara's weapons/shields are just generic nameless extensions of the technique itself. Nothing like Totsuka or Yata's Mirror. No such mention has been made of them at all. Totsuka and Yata's Mirror were items with a backstory and legend, which Orochimaru was looking for "his whole life". Itachi's only had his Susano'o for 8 years, tops.

Also Zetsu knew what the items were, but was completely baffled at the sight of Susano'o. The context seems pretty clear that Itachi had somehow acquired these special items, and that it's not something common to Susano'o normally.

Neither Sasuke nor Madara's swords displayed sealing powers or were said to be made purely out of spiritual energy, and neither had a shield that was said to be invincible.  There was nothing special said about them. That's what made Itachi's special.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 8, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> You don't know this.
> 
> In fact, Sasuke and Madara are the ones with ties to Indra, being his reincarnations, not Itachi, and _neither_ of them have any special named items for their Susano'o with properties nearly as divine as Yata and Totsuka.
> 
> ...


I don't need to know it. The weapons come out of Susanoo like every other weapon. By default they are part of Susanoo and have not been shown to have any independent existence. People claiming they do have an independent existence apart from what has been directly depicted in the manga have an obligation to provide proof. Misconstrued statements that never say anything about any such independent existence just don't cut it. The burden of proof lies with you.

All Uchiha owe their origins to Indra, including Itachi. Sasuke and Madara just have an even tighter relationship with him.

I don't know that Black Zetsu (the only relevant Zetsu) expressed any surprise at Susanoo's existence. Please post the page. I do know that if he did you can put that right up there with Kakashi loudly proclaiming he's suddenly figured out Obito only had one jutsu when Sakura had previously stated exactly that almost 200 and some odd chapters prior: *We know for a fact he knew about Susanoo as he would've watched Indra try and murder Asura with it.*Just like he watched Madara trying to murder Hashirama with his: Seeing as he was pretending to be Madara's will and has witnessed and manipulated the whole history of the Ninja world, why in hell would you argue that he wouldn't know about Susanoo?

Many Susanoo constructs don't get names. That doesn't mean they're not special, especially when they're depicted as special:Sasuke's bow shield does exactly the same thing as Yata mirror: And it's not just Susanoo. Many important jutsu never get names at all. See how Sasuke's Kusanagi did indeed get a name, but is just a regular sword that in no way compares to Orochimaru's? Names are unimportant in the face of definitive evidence. 

The legend concerning Totsuka and Yata were distorted, just like the hidden legend concerning the sealing of Kaguya. Hamura was apparently dropped completely from that. Probably when BZ altered the tablet so that two brothers would never be seen working together.


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

So basically you're saying you can't prove that the legends of Totsuka and Yata's Mirror came from Susano'o?

Good, because they don't.

The legends of Totsuka and Yata's Mirror have no connections to Susano'o, nor were they ever stated to. Totsuka is called a "Sword of Kusanagi", of the Kusanagi line where Orochimaru's sword comes from, not a "Sword of Susano'o". It is its own tool, related to and a variant of the Kusanagi sword Orochimaru uses. This is why Orochimaru was specifically looking for it.

These are not the same generic weapons the other Susano'o are shown with. These two items were not only named, but _explicitly_ stated to be independent items of legend with very unique properties, very unlike the normal weaponry of Madara and Sasuke's Susano'o.

And no, Sasuke does not have Yata's Mirror. Nothing's been stated about his shield having such properties. You literally pulled that out of your ass simply because it's a shield with a swirly design. Big deal.

Anyway, Orochimaru knew about Totsuka, and it had nothing to do with Susano'o because he had been looking for the sword his whole life. If it were a legend tied to Susano'o, he would have known it was a fruitless endeavor from the start. He knew about it because it was a tool of Kusanagi.

It makes no sense to say the Yata's Mirror is not more durable than Susano'o itself. If that were the case, the shield would be irrelevant. Susano'o could just tank the hits itself if that were the case, not even needing the shield. It's a shield for a reason.


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## Tony Lou (Dec 8, 2014)

You know, it amazes me that Sasuke didn't get these items.

They technically were "stored" in Itachi's eyes, so there's no explanation.

Even if you say, "the items are linked to Itachi's chakra" it wouldn't make any diference. His eyes contain his chakra.


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

I thought it was weird too. I found it weird that just above someone tried to say Sasuke had something like the mirror.

It's kinda like people saying that Sasuke had Tsukuyomi because he used a normal Genjutsu on Bee while his MS was active; jumping to conclusions with no confirmation without realizing that the MS is still a Sharingan that can use Genjutsu, track movement, and do everything a base Sharingan can do.

Like, Sasuke got his own unique weapons. Every Susano'o does, but nothing was really _special_ about them. Nothing legendary about them, with no special properties. I thought for sure Kishi would do the same thing, but he made Itachi's Susano'o out to be unique in that regard.

Though Sasuke's was special in a way. He mixed Kagutsuchi with his weaponry. It wasn't something "divine" or "of legend", but it was unique to him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 8, 2014)

Sasuke didn't get Tsukiyomi or legendary items because it'd over complicate things. Like, Sasuke wasn't supposed to be OP. His arsenal had to be counterable.

Look how horribly Amaterasu got trolled after Sasuke get it. Before that, it was an OP oneshot technique which was extremely hard to avoid.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 8, 2014)

Luiz said:


> You know, it amazes me that Sasuke didn't get these items.
> 
> They technically were "stored" in Itachi's eyes, so there's no explanation.
> 
> Even if you say, "the items are linked to Itachi's chakra" it wouldn't make any diference. His eyes contain his chakra.



I think kishi dropped all that because sasuke would be OP. Sasuke had itachis eyes and chakra so I think of a reason why sasuke didn't have everything in itachis arsenal.


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## Altair21 (Dec 8, 2014)

There would've been little point in giving Sasuke those weapons anyway. No need for the sword or shield when he's got a susanoo far more durable and powerful than either item. It's like giving him tsukuyomi when he's got a far more powerful genjutsu from his rinnegan in his arsenal. It'd be redundant. 

Though if people want an answer as to why he didn't get them then just use common sense. Kishi's a hack. I mean this is the guy who just ignored a crucial plot point (Sasuke traveling to discover the origins of Kaguya) because he wanted to end the manga.


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## Hexa (Dec 8, 2014)

The value of Black Zetsu calling the mirror of Yata indestructible shot way up when we discovered he was around since Rikudou's time, carefully watching the shinobi world.

I'm sure there's some limit to the mirror of Yata.  We'll never know what it is, though.


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

Hexa said:


> The value of Black Zetsu calling the mirror of Yata indestructible shot way up when we discovered he was around since Rikudou's time, carefully watching the shinobi world.
> 
> I'm sure there's some limit to the mirror of Yata.  We'll never know what it is, though.



I actually never considered this before, and for _him_ to call Itachi invincible...

Well I know Kishi referred to Itachi as "too perfect", but I don't think even _he_ means all that literally.

Right?


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## Hexa (Dec 8, 2014)

Probably the narrowest interpretation is the best.  When Zetsu says "invincible", he's probably not considering dead people coming back to life to fight Itachi.


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## Tony Lou (Dec 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke didn't get Tsukiyomi or legendary items because it'd over complicate things. Like, Sasuke wasn't supposed to be OP. His arsenal had to be counterable.
> 
> Look how horribly Amaterasu got trolled after Sasuke get it. Before that, it was an OP oneshot technique which was extremely hard to avoid.



It still is an instant hit technique. Only Raikage has ever dodged it.

However, its offensive power has been nerfed.

Amaterasu supposedly can burn and consume ANYTHING. "Even if the target is fire itself".

And yet... it couldn't melt that samurai's armor or get past Naruto's kyuubi cloak.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 9, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> So basically you're saying you can't prove that the legends of Totsuka and Yata's Mirror came from Susano'o?
> 
> Good, because they don't.
> 
> ...


So basically you're saying *you can't prove that the Yata and Totsuka have any place outside of what we've actually seen?*

Good, because they don't. 

They've *only *been seen with Susanoo. No one in the manga ever said they've been seen anywhere else so that feverish speculative fan fiction that people like you latch onto shall remain forever your *myth*conception.

Oro was obviously looking for things specifically associated with the Sharingan. Yata and Totsuka are just two more things associated with that. Other Susanoo tech has been named such as the Magatama of both Itachi and Sasuke. Names don't give them independent existence.

As expected, your case is baseless.


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## Hexa (Dec 9, 2014)

Yata and Totsuka definitely predate Itachi from what both Orochimaru and Zetsu said.  

It _could_ be that a long-forgotten Uchiha had for some reason an identical Susano'o to Itachi (maybe if the two MS powers are the same, an identical Susano'o is generated) and for some reason only the weapons of his Susano'o were remembered.  That's pure speculation, though.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 9, 2014)

Susanoo also predates Itachi so how is that a surprise?

Tobirama had seen Kagutsuchi long before Sasuke, yet know known Uchiha had it such as Itachi, Madara, Shisui, or Obito. Mangekyou jutsu are obviously recycled over and over again throughout shinobi history. That's canon.

What's speculation is that Itach found weapons in an underground cave somewhere that miraculously can only be used with Susanoo. That _could_ be the case, but there's literally no evidence of that.

Explain how Susanoo being *apparently* dropped from Totsuka/Yata legend would be any odder than Hamura being dropped from the history of Kaguya's sealing?


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## Hexa (Dec 9, 2014)

I mean, Kaguya knew all about Amaterasu as well.  The origin of these techniques is sort of a mystery.

But, yeah, like you say, it's all speculation as to how Itachi acquired the spiritual armaments "Totsuka no Tsurugi" and "Yata no Kagami".  We don't really get anything in the manga to help us here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2014)

The thing is, Madara is the first Uchiha to awaken MS. And that was like how long, 100 years ago  ? 

100 years isn't long enough of a time period for something to become a part of a legend, imo. 

Like people have forgotten or don't know about the period of Rikodou sennin, and events of that era are told like some kind of a fairy tale, but events from 50-100 years ago ? Not really no. 

I mean it could very well be the case but, it just doesn't sound right.


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## Maroke (Dec 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, Madara is the first Uchiha to awaken MS. And that was like how long, 100 years ago  ?
> 
> 100 years isn't long enough of a time period for something to become a part of a legend, imo.
> 
> ...


Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Indra have it?  I could have sworn he did.  That may just be speculation though.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2014)

Maroke said:


> Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Indra have it?  I could have sworn he did.  That may just be speculation though.



Have what ?


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## John Connor (Dec 9, 2014)

Maroke said:


> Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Indra have it?  I could have sworn he did.  That may just be speculation though.


Indra had the first EMS and Susano because he gained his power directly from Rikudo

an Uchiha needs Indra's chakra and a brother's chakra to reach EMS because its not directly gained from Rikudo so it needs more requirements. a Susano used without completing the two halves means you will go blind


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## Maroke (Dec 9, 2014)

I thought so.


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## KingBoo (Dec 9, 2014)

manga ended with the yata mirror in perfect condition

it is limitless






unless it gets broken in the movie


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## Bloo (Dec 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, Madara is the first Uchiha to awaken MS. And that was like how long, 100 years ago  ?
> 
> 100 years isn't long enough of a time period for something to become a part of a legend, imo.
> 
> ...


Indra was the first person to awaken the EMS/MS/Rinnegan.

Based on old knowledge, Madara and Izuna were the first. However, because of the startling revolution towards the end of the series that Black Zetsu completely changed the history that was written on the Uchiha stone tablet, we have no reason to believe that story.

Considering the general conditions to awaken MS and the fact that war was a normal thing before Konoha's founding, I'd say quite a few other Uchiha awakened the Mangekyou.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Indra was the first person to awaken the EMS/MS/Rinnegan.
> 
> Based on old knowledge, Madara and Izuna were the first. However, because of the startling revolution towards the end of the series that Black Zetsu completely changed the history that was written on the Uchiha stone tablet, we have no reason to believe that story.
> 
> Considering the general conditions to awaken MS and the fact that war was a normal thing before Konoha's founding, I'd say quite a few other Uchiha awakened the Mangekyou.



I completely forgot about the BZ retcon, but I am not sure how he can change the History itself. If there were other MS users before Madara, I think people would know. 

Although pre retcon, BZ made it sound like Totsuka & Yata weren't a part of Itachi's dojutsu powers3.

So I am not sure what to make of it.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I completely forgot about the BZ retcon, but I am not sure how he can change the History itself. If there were other MS users before Madara, I think people would know.
> 
> Although pre retcon, BZ made it sound like Totsuka & Yata weren't a part of Itachi's dojutsu powers3.
> 
> So I am not sure what to make of it.


If Hagoromo had a brother, I think people would know.

Quote where he says Totsuka and Yata aren't part of Itachi's powers. I see no such statement. If he's using them through his eyeballs one wonders how that would even make sense to say.

*Edit:*
I wonder what takL has to say about the translation.

torachan says:

"瞳力…それにこれだけの術…　やっぱイタチはすっげー強え！
Zetsu1: The power of his eyes, this jutsu... Itachi really is awfully strong!"

Funny how he calls it a jutsu.


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## Bloo (Dec 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I completely forgot about the BZ retcon, but I am not sure how he can change the History itself. If there were other MS users before Madara, I think people would know.
> 
> Although pre retcon, BZ made it sound like Totsuka & Yata weren't a part of Itachi's dojutsu powersLink removed.
> 
> So I am not sure what to make of it.


I, too, don't believe the Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror to be something that awakened with Itachi's MS. I feel like he somehow found them because Ororchimaru had read about them and searched for them for years. Itachi raided tombs from an early age and may have found them that way. We'll never have any idea, unless an Itachi spin-off happens.


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## King Scoop (Dec 9, 2014)

Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror obviously were both created/summoned during the Kaguya/Hagoromo days. A weapon that change into any nature type has to be connect to the Rinnegan in some way. Itachi must have found them by reading clues from the Uchiha tablet.


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## Maroke (Dec 9, 2014)

Black Zetsu said that the Yata Mirror with the Totsuka made Itachi invincible and we never saw it beat so if that's the case then that's the case.  I think the only reason people get their panties in a wad over this is because it was attached to Itachi.  

As far as it being an MS tech I can't say.  We have no cannon evidence to support it only a suggestion that they might not be, but are tools found for the Susano'o.  Orochimaru said he had been searching for Totsuka for years.

As far as the first MS users.  I went back and looked.  Indra is considered the first that was right.  In *recorded* history Madara and Izuna might be the first but no way they are the actual first.  Considering the fact that BZ changed so much on the stone tablet tho I don't believe most of what is on there...at least most of what we *know*  is on there.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2014)

CyberianGinseng said:


> If Hagoromo had a brother, I think people would know.
> 
> Quote where he says Totsuka and Yata aren't part of Itachi's powers. I see no such statement. If he's using them through his eyeballs one wonders how that would even make sense to say.
> 
> ...



Regardless of what he calls it, his Dojutsu and the items are mentioned seperately unless the translations are off.


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## Hexa (Dec 10, 2014)

King Scoop said:


> Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror obviously were both created/summoned during the Kaguya/Hagoromo days. A weapon that change into any nature type has to be connect to the Rinnegan in some way.


In principle, something "endowed will all nature alterations" sounds like a _kekkei moura_ such as Kaguya's ash bone technique, right?


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## King Scoop (Dec 10, 2014)

Hexa said:


> In principle, something "endowed will all nature alterations" sounds like a _kekkei moura_ such as Kaguya's ash bone technique, right?



Yea it could be. There's also Hagoromo's Bashosen, which contained all 5 natures as well. The more I think about it, Totsuka Sword works just like the 5 sacred tools.


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## Closet Pervert (Jan 24, 2015)

King Scoop said:


> Yea it could be. There's also Hagoromo's Bashosen, which contained all 5 natures as well. The more I think about it, Totsuka Sword works just like the 5 sacred tools.


It would make sense for Totsuka and Yata to be Rikudou's or one of the close relatives', though still the question remains, how did Itachi come upon them?

I guess since Kishi gave up on his magnum opus many years before it's conclusion, we'll have to come up with our own answers (which would probably make more sense anyway). I suggest the Uchiha inherited these items from Rikudou or his brother (just as some of the Cloud guys likely inherited the others), had them locked up in a safe, and since Itachi killed nearly the entire clan she had the opportunity to steal them, or better yet, with the privileges of a spy and clan leaders' inheritor, broke in the safe after learning Susanoo and used Totsuka and Yata against the inferior normal Uchiha weapons in the massacre.


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## Sniffers (Jan 24, 2015)

Honestly, I was kind of hoping this sort of stuff would've been cleared up with the Databook. We'll probably never know exactly where Yata's limits lie, but considering Black Zetsu, an observer who's been around from Kaguya's time, gave it such praise I think we should rank Yata at least as one of the top defenses in the manga.​


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## tkpirate (Jan 24, 2015)

top tiers should be able to destroy it.and god tiers should easily destroy it.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 25, 2015)

In conclusion.....The Variation of Susano'o in which manifests Yata's Mirror is the least utilized variation for Susano'o in the manga for both Itachi and Sasuke. Therefore one cannot get an accurate measurement as to the limits of Yata's Mirror.

Sigh....End of the manga, and we're still talking about an aspect of Itachi which has long been outdated. And I still fail to see what difference does finding vs. manifesting the weapons make, as all Susano'o user had special abilities that came with higher level Susano'o usage. Former Rikudo weapons really? Was this cropped up theory invented to make Itachi seem more special? Yeah, here's a reality check on that. Actual confirmed Rikudo weapons weren't regarded very high in terms of prestige by the end of the manga....

Thus the cold hard truth regarding Yata's Mirror, Iphr0z3nI style. Chances are it was a scrapped idea, as Susano'o itself is already regarded as an ultimate shield. I believe the last usage of Susano'o utilizing a shield was.......
After that any shield of Susano'o, regardless of stage, was pure accessory. All variation of perfect Susano'o were duel wielders, with the exception of super perfect Susano'o. Keep in mind that Itachi was also the first Uchiha to utilize Susano'o, and a completed one at that. 

Suffice to say, waste of time and discussion, as there's no way to expand on the contents of this thread without going off topic. Without making silly unsupported speculation. Without playing the role of Kishi, when even Kishi himself is done speaking on the subject. However I can see things from an Itachi fan perspective, but sadly Yata's Mirror was never a major factor in his arsenal to begin with.(If it was, we wouldn't need threads like these) It's attached something which already destroys it in the defense department FEAT WISE, which is Susano'o itself. What's Itachi's best defensive feat? Surviving Kirin? It can be argued favorably that such was done with Susano'o alone. Totsuka limitations is far more deserving of a discussion, it's proven, and it brings something to the table Susano'o itself does not. SMH...waste of a thread.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 25, 2015)

...why necro this thread?


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 25, 2015)

Yata's limit is that it's the product of ninjutsu. Therefore, it automatically falls before any Juubi Jinchuuriki or anyone with the six paths senjutsu and gudoudama, like Naruto. Sorry to break it to you.


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## Bloo (Jan 25, 2015)

I'm not here to debate much because I honestly don't care to. But there's a lot of evidence that suggests that ribcage Susano'o was what blocked Kirin, not Yata Mirror.


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## Jυstin (Jan 25, 2015)

^ I'm under that impression as well.

Before the lightning struck, he had nothing formed around him. He had only a fraction of a second to defend against it, which wouldn't have been enough time for Susano'o to form enough to don the Mirror.

Pretty sure Itachi only had enough time to partially generate the chakra to form Susano'o with, which was still enough to block it, but it still knocked him down.


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## SSMG (Jan 25, 2015)

It can tank Gokus dragon fist, Simons drill, darkseids omega beams. 

In all serious though it has basless hype since BZ was wrong in his statement about itachi while wielding the artifacts. He claimed itachi was completely invincible while wielding the items..yet they led to his death. Since he was wrong about that the whole statement can be thrown out.

So I figure it gets busted by things such as FRS,AT.. Stuff of that nature.


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## Bloo (Jan 26, 2015)

SSMG said:


> It can tank Gokus dragon fist, Simons drill, darkseids omega beams.
> 
> _*In all serious though it has basless hype since BZ was wrong in his statement about itachi while wielding the artifacts. He claimed itachi was completely invincible while wielding the items..yet they led to his death. Since he was wrong about that the whole statement can be thrown out.*_
> 
> So I figure it gets busted by things such as FRS,AT.. Stuff of that nature.


Does it strain your arm to reach that far for a point?


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## SSMG (Jan 26, 2015)

Not as strained as the no limits fallacy that is constantly getting pulled on by the itachists.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 26, 2015)

SSMG said:


> It can tank Gokus dragon fist, Simons drill, darkseids omega beams.
> 
> *In all serious though it has basless hype since BZ was wrong in his statement about itachi while wielding the artifacts. He claimed itachi was completely invincible while wielding the items..yet they led to his death. Since he was wrong about that the whole statement can be thrown out.*
> 
> So I figure it gets busted by things such as FRS,AT.. Stuff of that nature.



Shittiest post of the year already


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 26, 2015)

From what we know, it can't defend from all angles. Also obvious things it can't defend against are Gudou Dama. 

Shinra Tensei is now possible seeing as we know that ST isn't a load of chakra thrown at a target.


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## Maroke (Jan 26, 2015)

SSMG said:


> It can tank Gokus dragon fist, Simons drill, darkseids omega beams.
> 
> In all serious though it has basless hype since BZ was wrong in his statement about itachi while wielding the artifacts. He claimed itachi was completely invincible while wielding the items..yet they led to his death. Since he was wrong about that the whole statement can be thrown out.
> 
> So I figure it gets busted by things such as FRS,AT.. Stuff of that nature.


Naw man, an illness lead to his death get it right.  I'm sure using his MS like he did did not help his cause but he died from his illness,  not from his eyes.


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## boohead (Jan 26, 2015)

7-Gates Gai solos

8-Gates Gai murderstomps


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## Jυstin (Jan 27, 2015)

SSMG said:


> In all serious though it has basless hype since BZ was wrong in his statement about itachi while wielding the artifacts. He claimed itachi was completely invincible while wielding the items..yet they led to his death. Since he was wrong about that the whole statement can be thrown out.




Uhhhhh...

THAT's not how Itachi died. He died because he was sick, and WANTED to die.

Black Zetsu has been around since the beginning, pulling the strings, and has seen everything and knows pretty much everything. For _him_ of all people to claim that Itachi is invincible, given all the crazy shit he's seen and experienced and knows, really says something.


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## Closet Pervert (Jan 28, 2015)

Maroke said:


> Naw man, an illness lead to his death get it right.  I'm sure using his MS like he did did not help his cause but he died from his illness,  not from his eyes.


Sasuke also got sick when he used Susanoo.


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## Punished Pathos (Jan 28, 2015)

Yata Mirror's and Tosuka sword's limits is Itachi's small chakra reserves :ho

Anyways, I think Itachi's sickness was something that was natural.
Sasuke getting weak from Susanoo was just a small side effect that EMS removed. imo.


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 28, 2015)

Sasuke exhibited similar symptoms to Itachi when using Susanoo. Most likely he'd end up the same way if he didn't gain EMS.


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## arokh (Jan 29, 2015)

Itachi planned his death idiots, nothing to do with limits of the items. CT is a good counter though, and gaara's sand could probably get under it. If he could avoid kunai to the fkn face that is.


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## Jυstin (Jan 29, 2015)

Sasuke mentioned lots of strain and pain, but Itachi clutching his chest and coughing up blood was _directly_ attributed to his unknown illness.

End of story.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 29, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> Sasuke mentioned lots of strain and pain, but Itachi clutching his chest and coughing up blood was _directly_ attributed to his unknown illness.
> 
> End of story.



Using a jutsu which drained life while having the illness accelerated the illness which led him to clutching his chest and coughing up blood.


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## Jυstin (Jan 29, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Using a jutsu which drained life while having the illness accelerated the illness which led him to clutching his chest and coughing up blood.




It's not that it "accelerated the illness" exactly. Itachi was so far gone that he had to take medicine just in order to still be alive to fight Sasuke. THAT is how close he was to death.

It's more like, if you're suffering a fatal illness, doing _anything_ strenuous would aggravate it and... well not help your condition.Neither Susano'o nor the fight in general did anything to help Itachi's condition, but he wouldn't have had a heart attack, coughed up blood, or died if he hadn't been sick.

A bit uncomfortable? Yes. Drowning and suffocating in his own blood? No.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 29, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> It's not that it "accelerated the illness" exactly. Itachi was so far gone that he had to take medicine just in order to still be alive to fight Sasuke. THAT is how close he was to death.



He was close to death because he decided to use a jutsu which canonically drains his life force. Doing that while you're sick isn't a good idea.


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## Closet Pervert (Jan 29, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> Sasuke mentioned lots of strain and pain, but Itachi clutching his chest and coughing up blood was _directly_ attributed to his unknown illness.
> 
> End of story.





Jυstin said:


> A bit uncomfortable? Yes.


Indeed...

Every cell of his body aching. And he hadn't even perfected it yet.

What must it have been like for Itachi?

Oh yeah and he's coughing up blood.


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## Jυstin (Jan 29, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He was close to death because he decided to use a jutsu which canonically drains his life force. Doing that while you're sick isn't a good idea.




Indeed. Though, was it actually stated and confirmed to "drain life force", with those actual words used?



Closet Pervert said:


> Indeed...
> 
> Every cell of his body aching. And he hadn't even perfected it yet.
> 
> ...




No.



"Eaten up from the inside by a disease" was mentioned, with the author showing the panel of Itachi coughing up blood to show the reader _exactly _what Obito was referring to.

Reading comprehension 101. It was the disease that ultimately killed him. Medication was the only reason he was still alive, meaning without taking it, he'd have ALREADY been dead.

Without the illness, he'd have been more or less fine.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 30, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> Indeed. Though, was it actually stated and confirmed to "drain life force", with those actual words used?



Databook said it, Sasuke confirmed it in the Kage Summit. Then again against Danzo when prolonged use of the jutsu was making him cough up blood.

Itachi wouldn't have died in that battle if he didn't use Susanoo.


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## Jυstin (Jan 30, 2015)

Itachi's plan was to die in that battle, and he had been taking medicine just to live long enough to face Sasuke, so with or without Susano'o, he would have died.

It's more accurate to say " Itachi wouldn't have died in that battle if he wasn't fatally sick.", because Susano'o was not the cause of his death.

It's just like with AIDS. AIDS attacks your immune system so that even the common cold can kill a young and otherwise healthy person. In such a situation, it's more accurate to say "If so and so didn't have AIDS, they wouldn't have died" rather than "If so and so hadn't gotten that cold, they wouldn't have died.".

Kishi might have forgotten the whole "drains life force" thing, since Sasuke was using it no problem. And I really don't think EMS had anything to do with it. An EMS is "A MS without drawbacks" in the sense that the user doesn't lose sight. That's the only difference. Susano'o would affect the user all the same, as far as the info on EMS given to us tells us. It was never stated to negate the huge chakra consumption of MS techniques, but rather to keep the user's eyesight perfect.


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## Closet Pervert (Jan 30, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> No.
> 
> 
> 
> "Eaten up from the inside by a disease" was mentioned, with the author showing the panel of Itachi coughing up blood to show the reader _exactly _what Obito was referring to.


Obito the Truthful?

Obito: "Sasuke, Itachi died and went blind from overusing the MS. Now that you can have the MS too, i suggest you use it a lot for vengeance so you become weak and blind like Itachi so that i can force you to take Itachi's eyes, so that you can gain EMS and eventually use Rinne Tensei on Madara and die as a puppet".

Having your every cell ache could probably be described as being eaten up from inside.


> Reading comprehension 101.


Images too, in a manga. SASUKE IS COUGHING UP BLOOD. He looked pretty sick. And he implied it must've been worse for Itachi.

Sasuke unconscious.


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## Hexa (Jan 30, 2015)

It's not really canon, but Itachi's disease is a major plot element of Sasuke's Jinraiden novel (by the same author who is doing the Kakashi novel available on the 4th of February).  

I don't think it ever discusses Itachi's disease itself (fantasy tuberculosis, obviously  -- the disease, for whatever reason, is romanticized in Japanese culture), but there's a lot of discussion of the medicine Itachi was taking for it.


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## Skywalker (Jan 31, 2015)

The only limit is Itachi, so there is none.


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## Overhaul (Jan 31, 2015)

depends on plot.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 31, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> Itachi's plan was to die in that battle



And he helped himself by using Susanoo. We have the facts: Itachi was sick; Susanoo drains life force. Obviously the latter helped accelerate the former.


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## Shidoshi (Feb 1, 2015)

I swear, if this were Minato's spiritual item?

...we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It's all "hyperbole" only when it's Uchiha.


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## Jυstin (Feb 1, 2015)

Closet Pervert said:


> Obito the Truthful?
> 
> Obito: "Sasuke, Itachi died and went blind from overusing the MS. Now that you can have the MS too, i suggest you use it a lot for vengeance so you become weak and blind like Itachi so that i can force you to take Itachi's eyes, so that you can gain EMS and eventually use Rinne Tensei on Madara and die as a puppet".




Are people still clinging to Obito being a liar, even though all his words about the "truth about Itachi" checked out? Kishimoto used Obito as a plot device to fill in the missing holes. The fact that Itachi was suffering from a fatal illness shouldn't be in question. Obito had NO reason to lie about it. The only reason for him to lie about Itachi being sick and preparing to die, would be if the whole truth about Itachi being good and wanting to die to Sasuke was a lie an he wanted Sasuke to believe he was sick to believe his lie. However, Obito wasn't lying about that, so he'd have no reason to bullshit about Itachi being sick for the lulz. It's already been proven that Obito was serious, by both Itachi and Hiruzen.



> Having your every cell ache could probably be described as being eaten up from inside.




Not even close.



> Images too, in a manga. SASUKE IS COUGHING UP BLOOD. He looked pretty sick. And he implied it must've been worse for Itachi.
> 
> Sasuke unconscious.




Itachi suffered a heart attack, which had him clutching his chest while literally _coughing_ up hemorrhaged blood. Sasuke was not "coughing" up blood. There is merely blood coming from his mouth, which happens in a lot of fights. He's nowhere shown hacking and coughing it up. For all we know, it could have been from when he had his face/throat kicked in by Raikage.

I mean, I'm sure that blood had nothing to do with this, this, or this, and him being unconscious had nothing to do with this. And I'm sure neither of those had _anything_ to do with the whole entire fight that he'd been involved in where he was having his ass handed to him. That couldn't possibly cause someone's mouth to bleed or cause them to fall unconscious.

Meanwhile, while nothing is happening, Itachi _suddenly_ has a heart attack and *violently* coughs up a LOT of blood, when he's had Susano'o out for merely a fraction of the time Sasuke did.

Itachi was most definitely sick. On top of Obito flat out telling us, even Zetsu noted that he must have sustained *severe* injuries before the fight.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> And he helped himself by using Susanoo. We have the facts: Itachi was sick; Susanoo drains life force. Obviously the latter helped accelerate the former.




Let me try to explain it this way.

If Itachi didn't have Susano'o, but was still sick, he still would have died.

If Itachi hadn't been sick, but still used Susano'o, he wouldn't have died.

And Sasuke's been spamming Susano'o like no one's business. If it really did drain life force, that only seemed to apply before Sasuke got MS, and then Kishi discarded it.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Feb 1, 2015)

Not to mention Zetzu said Itachi was coughing blood throughout the whole battle.

And that Itachi wasn't fighting normally at all, he should have dodged Sasuke's attacks easily


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## CyberianGinseng (Feb 2, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> Not even close.
> 
> Itachi suffered a heart attack, which had him clutching his chest while literally _coughing_ up hemorrhaged blood. Sasuke was not "coughing" up blood. There is merely blood coming from his mouth, which happens in a lot of fights. He's nowhere shown hacking and coughing it up. For all we know, it could have been from when he had his face/throat kicked in by Raikage.
> 
> ...


No. Sasuke directly relates his Susanoo side effects with Itachi's:He clearly has no blood on his mouth before he defends against the Mizukage's attack by attempting to evolve from ribcage Susanoo to skeletal Susanoo. He screams in pain and effort as he does so:The blood he very clearly spits up (as we can see it hit the floor) is defintely in response to this side effect of his latest use of Susanoo:He immediately loses strength and reverts to ribcage Susanoo. Two characters, one of whom is a sensor, comment on his sudden weakness.

There's really nothing that you have that can dispute these facts.

You can choose to interpret the facts as Ninja aids having nothing to do with the similar effects Itachi and Sasuke Susanoo usage, but the alternate interpretation of these manga facts is that Itachi's "disease" was brought on by prolonged Susanoo use over years.

And it is at least as valid as yours, while fitting the facts much better.


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## Jυstin (Feb 2, 2015)

1. Sasuke wonders *IF *this was what it was like for Itachi. *NOWHERE *did he say "So this is why Itachi had a heart attack and violently coughed up hemorrhaged blood", because we're already *DIRECTLY *told why Itachi did that. He was only _supposing_ that this is what Itachi must have felt while using Susano'o, but nowhere did he correlate what he was going through to Itachi's actual death, because Susano'o didn't kill him.

2. Zetsu also noted this about Itachi for the entirety of the fight, not just the end, when Susano'o came out. He'd assumed that Itachi must have sustained *SEVERE *injuries prior to the fight, because of the way Itachi was fighting as a whole. And this was after he'd supposed it was due to MS blindness, but then shifted his opinion after the fight and stated that it was something more, which Obito later confirmed.

3. Spitting =/= coughing. Coughing up blood means it's coming from deep inside of you, from your lungs, and denotes *FATALITY*. Spitting means the blood is merely in your mouth, and is far less serious, as evidenced by the fact that Sasuke wasn't dying from it.

4. Itachi was coughing up blood very obviously *because* of the heart attack he'd suffered; A cause which Sasuke did not suffer from. Aside from spitting blood and having his skin melting away, he was otherwise fine. No heart attack, or anything related to that scale, was shown.

5. We do *NOT* see Sasuke "violently coughing up" blood or suffering from a heart attack, which was what caused Itachi to cough up blood. We see him falling to his knees under the strain of not only Susano'o, but from Mei's attack, which you can see is very clearly affecting him through Susano'o. It is more accurate to say that, not only is the acidic mist dissolving his skin, but is also causing him to bleed from his mouth, because he still has to breathe after all.

6. We don't see blood coming from Sasuke's mouth until he starts succumbing to Mei's acidic attack, which was already pointed out in point #5.

7. Even Mei points out that "Raikage really wore him out" upon seeing his condition.

8. When Sasuke would spam Susano'o other times, when he wasn't under such a massive strain or beatdown, you don't see him spitting or drooling blood. If Susano'o were the reason for this, he'd have been doing it too when he fought Danzou and had a far more completed version of Susano'o out almost *THE ENTIRE TIME*.

Yeah. Itachi's heart attack and hemorrhaging of blood, which looked MUCH different from Sasuke's spitting out blood, was due to his illness. Those two were directly related by the author himself.






> You can choose to interpret the facts as Ninja aids having nothing to do with the similar effects Itachi and Sasuke Susanoo usage, but the alternate interpretation of these manga facts is that Itachi's "disease" was brought on by prolonged Susanoo use over years.




Except that has NOTHING to back it up, while the manga clearly tells us that Itachi's very obvious heart attack and coughing up blood, was due to his unknown illness.

The ONLY refute to this is to flat out deny that it's true, but that's not much of a case. Not one that's going to work on me.


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## Maroke (Feb 2, 2015)

Closet Pervert said:


> Obito the Truthful?


Know what's funny?  He did tell the truth more often then not.

Justin I think I posted this before but I'll post it again.  Someone took the time to find a diagnosis for what Itachi had.  Pretty spot on if you ask me.  It does get a little technical but you shouldn't need a background in medicine to get what's being said xD!!


*Spoiler*: __ 



What disease does Itachi have? When the internet couldn't give me anything better than 'advance-the-plot-itis,' I decided to take matters into my own hands.

After months of intense research, I think it's finally time to give Itachi Uchiha a REAL diagnosis... microscopic polyangiitis.



In short, MPA is a rare form of systemic vasculitis. It is an auto-immune disorder, characterized by antineutrophil cytoplasmic antibodies attacking the small vessels, causing them to bleed as they become damaged and inflamed. It can have far-reaching consequences throughout different organ systems that, when compared to Itachi's mysterious sickness, is nothing short of startling.

The most visible symptom of Itachi's illness is hemoptysis.



The hemoptysis is, more likely than not, a result of diffuse alveolar hemorrhage. This is a classic symptom of MPA when it presents with pulmonary manifestations. There is also shortness of breath, and coughing.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Unlike many other forms of vasculitis, such as wegener granulomatosis for example, the upper respiratory tract is usually spared. All the damage is deeper in the lungs. Itachi's case is consistent with this.

Other symptoms along the same vein can be seen during his final battle with Sasuke when Itachi grabs his shirt, reacting to what appears to be a heart attack.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Chest pain, myocardial infarction and other signs of cardiac failure are not uncommon effects of this disease, especially considering how it presented.

It is also no secret that by the time of his death, Itachi was nearly blind. This, we know, to be a direct result of the mangyeko sharingan. When the mangyeko is used, it clearly puts a tremendous amount of strain on the eye, and the nerves and blood vessels that surround it. Needless to say, it's inflammatory in and of itself. But it is hasty to assume that Itachi's eye problems are caused by the mangyeko alone.

Ocular involvement in MPA is uncommon, but can exist - usually in the form of retinal hemorrhage and scleritis. The bloodshot eyes Itachi sports in his final battle with Sasuke show these symptoms clearly.



And given this, it's no stretch to assume that MPA played a large role in accelerating the damage the mangyeko did to his eyes, hastening his vision loss.

Those are the only clues to Itachi's symptoms given outright in canon. But we can extrapolate others from the way he conducts himself.



His low stamina as reported by the databook suggest constitutional symptoms of malaise and fatigue. The peculiar way he rests one hand in his cloak could be an attempt to alleviate painful sensations attributed to peripheral nervous system involvement manifesting as mononeuritis multiplex or myalgia, or simply to support a weakened limb. One could probably even argue his thin stature is evidence of weight loss.

There are, of course, come classic manifestations of MPA that cannot be observed in Itachi. This, however, dos not mean that they can't be rectified.

One of the most common ways MPA manifests itself is with renal involvement. We have no evidence that Itachi's kidneys have been damaged by disease. However, it is possible the damage is there, and simply did not produce outward, observable symptoms. At least half the cases of MPA also report skin involvement. This can range from small blisters to necrosis and gangrene. There are reports, however, of MPA only causing splinter hemorrhages, or small areas of bleeding under the nails. As the Akatsuki always wear nail polish, this would be completely unobservable.

Long story short, the symptoms fit. In fact, they're pretty much textbook.

Next, we consider what we know about how the disease was managed. Madara describes Itachi's disease to Sasuke in one panel.



There, he reveals that Itachi took a variety of different medicines to keep himself alive. He could easily be describing the treatment of MPA, which requires a combination of different steroids and immunosuppressive agents. Because treating the disease requires suppressing his immune system, Itachi likely needed other drugs as well, including specific types of antibiotics and vitamins. Considering the high mortality rate of untreated microscopic polyanglitis, (a five-year survival rate of under 25%) this really did have the purpose of prolonging his life. Madara did not lie.

Lastly, we consider the prognosis.

The average age of onset is usually in the fifth decade of life, but cases around Itachi's age have been reported in medical literature. The cause of the disease is currently unknown. It is seen as an auto-immune disorder, but because it doesn't have a tendency to run in families, it's not viewed as genetic. (Sasuke, after all, is still healthy.) However, it is theorized that there needs to be a trigger event, such as a disease or a major bout of inflammation that sets the production of antibodies into overdrive. This trigger could easily be the initial, or repeated, activation of the mangyeko sharingan, which as stated before, is clearly inflammatory in and of itself.

The natural course of the disease fits cleanly into the time line of canon events as well. It is conceivable that, in the period of time following the chunin exam arc, he fell victim to the disease in full force. His whereabouts are unknown during the time-skip, where he likely managed to control it through medication, go into remission and then relapse again. That relapse would be the deciding factor in seeking out his final battle with Sasuke. The time between induced remission and relapse is usually around 2 years if it occurs, again fitting nicely with the chronology of the canon universe. And his death at Sasuke's feet is thus, easily explained. 




Edit:  I'm not taking credit for this btw here's the link to the blog where I stumbled onto it.


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