# Zerg (StarCraft) vs The Empire (Star Wars)



## Swarmy (Apr 28, 2016)

The Zerg, led by Kerrigan, invade the Star Wars galaxy, the only thing that stands between them and total dominance is the Empire!

Zerg have all units (heroes included) from the games (up to LotV), books (roverlisks for example) and comics, they are led by Primal Kerrigan.

The Empire has everything from the EU as well as canon, they are led by Vader and Sidious.

The Deathstar can be used but only as a last resort to cleanse planetary infestation by the Zerg.

Who will win the galaxy?


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## AgentAAA (Apr 28, 2016)

Depends on which part of the EU really.
I'm actually not sure where old-ass sidious sits compared to DE sidious, if he's too close PK has a chance of getting mind-raped.

Leviathans have the advantage in speed, teleportation abilities, and continent-level sticky prods.
to get past the whole "SD's are superior to terran/protoss/zerg weaponry" early...
current interpretation of purification seems to be this:


which should be well around a leviathan's casual output and, though capped by a much smaller AoE, it should also be in mutalisk and scourges court.

They are very much in the same courtroom as their peers in DC and Dura.
given Yamato can damage carriers, which can tank blasts from multiple other protoss capital ships that are also probably carriers(or void rays, which would not be better.) but would get casually slapped around by a leviathan...

it's notable scourge, on the other hand, can take out gorgons in a small group, which are known to tank yamato with minimal damage and be more or less immune to damage from more regular zerg air defense.

on the other hand, there's about a minimum of 17 leviathans but a lot more SD's. On the other hand, a regular planetary sweep by the zerg ended up bringing in over 10,000 mutalisks on what was a raid on a few thousand terrans. 

they also have a significant speed advantage out of ftl at 1.04c and while Leviathans don't use traditional FTL, they instead can wormhole where they please.

Kerrigan herself is capable of doing this to transfer around entire planets filled with zerg.

Now, admittedly even with this if it's a full composite empire and includes things like the galaxy gun and etc. zerg probably do lose, but at the height of it's power as an official empire the match is a lot more debatable.

The Empire has the advantage of a larger fleet to begin the match with an in-born advantage, and likely actually outnumbers the zerg if we go right from the start.
that said, the spread of zerg creatures gets tremendously fast as time goes on.

if the imperials go for the kill from the start and manage to catch large portions of the zerg forces off-guard they have a good way to take this, but if they spread their forces properly and grow from different planets being conquered I'd give it to the zerg.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Swarmy (May 6, 2016)

Not gonna let this one die so easily  It's an interesting match


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## RavenSupreme (May 6, 2016)

no idea


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## Kaaant (May 6, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Depends on which part of the EU really.
> I'm actually not sure where old-ass sidious sits compared to DE sidious, if he's too close PK has a chance of getting mind-raped.



His best feat is before DE. Preventing at the very least, trillions of people from being aware of a huge section of an already built up area of coruscant being evacuated, levelled, and dug deep enough to hide a 19KM SSD; which was then buried and the preexisting structures rebuilt. The number could be far higher if you consider that this was the galactic centre, with holovids and galactic traffic coming to the planet every day.


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## Rowknan (May 6, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Depends on which part of the EU really.
> I'm actually not sure where old-ass sidious sits compared to DE sidious, if he's too close PK has a chance of getting mind-raped.
> 
> Leviathans have the advantage in speed, teleportation abilities, and continent-level sticky prods.
> ...



From what you said I'd give it to the Zerg. While the Empire's arsenal is truly massive and devestating due to the size of the Galactic Empire there's only so many ships the Empire can send out at one time. 

Although there is some more argument for the empire depending on the who first responders are. If it's a group led by someone truly competent like Thrawn or Vader then I think the empire should take it. Especially if there's a force user helping out that can give a general idea on what the Zerg are capable of. On the other hand if it's a politician who has taken military power like Tarkin then the Zerg should win fairly handily. At least until the Emperor starts going Force Storm on any Zerg forces unlucky enough to be anywhere in his path.

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## AgentAAA (May 6, 2016)

Rowknan said:


> From what you said I'd give it to the Zerg. While the Empire's arsenal is truly massive and devestating due to the size of the Galactic Empire there's only so many ships the Empire can send out at one time.
> 
> Although there is some more argument for the empire depending on the who first responders are. If it's a group led by someone truly competent like Thrawn or Vader then I think the empire should take it. Especially if there's a force user helping out that can give a general idea on what the Zerg are capable of. On the other hand if it's a politician who has taken military power like Tarkin then the Zerg should win fairly handily. At least until the Emperor starts going Force Storm on any Zerg forces unlucky enough to be anywhere in his path.



Thrawn and Vader are both potent commanders, but neither can be everywhere and the swarm is lucky enough to have exponential growth on their side.

force storm can be problematic, but given how little they need to spread(one drone in a single overlord delivered by warp travel without even creating a fireball on atmospheric entry to warn incoming forces) they do have a fair few advantages.
I'm also unsure what Vader or Sidious can do if they get wormhole BFRed to be honest.


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## Kaaant (May 6, 2016)

What's the size of the Zerg military?


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## Finalbeta (May 6, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> no idea


Empire should stomp  
Don't know for sure though

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## Fang (May 6, 2016)

Empire likely stops them hard after a short time. They have home field advantage, the Zerg don't, the Zerg I'm assuming are coming from the Unknown Regions meaning they're largely only going to be encountering sparsely populated planets or star systems. Ignoring the massive FTL advantage the Empire has, they can spam probe droids in the millions with just a single task force to map out the Zerg's locations, numbers, and collect data. Hyperwave transcievers and FTL communications also are a huge bonus as well as the Holonet.

Also logistically speaking, the first Death Star alone is the equivalent to building 24 million Star Destroyers. We also know things like Dark Troopers and Purge Troopers were built to counter Jedi and Force-Users, a huge number of dark side Force using agents like the Inquisitorus, Prophets of the Dark Side, Hands of the Emperor, Shadow Guards, armies of battle droids, etc...

Victory class Star Destroyers are vastly inferior to Venators and Imperial/Imperator class Star Destroyers and can output high teraton to low petaton levels of firepower in barrages and orbital bombardments. Unlike the Terrans in Starcraft, humanity in Star Wars, especially Imperials like the Sith Empire or Galactic Empire do not hesitate to raze planets or destroy star systems.

They cause huge damage in the outskirts of the galaxy but eventually get contained and stopped. The Emperor was already preparing for the Vong invasion which is one of the reasons why he invested so much time and effort constantly augmenting and building up the Empire's military such a massive force of soldiers and warships, much less super weapons like the Death Stars, Sun Crusher, World Devastators, Shadow Droids, etc...

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## Rowknan (May 6, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Thrawn and Vader are both potent commanders, but neither can be everywhere and the swarm is lucky enough to have exponential growth on their side.
> 
> force storm can be problematic, but given how little they need to spread(one drone in a single overlord delivered by warp travel without even creating a fireball on atmospheric entry to warn incoming forces) they do have a fair few advantages.
> I'm also unsure what Vader or Sidious can do if they get wormhole BFRed to be honest.


Well the empire has dealt with quickly spreading threats before. Like the Blackwing virus or the Rakghoul Plague. Add that to the technological advantages and the sithspawn Sideous has running around and the Empire should take it. Though it might be different if the invasion starts in Hutt Space.


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## AgentAAA (May 7, 2016)

> Unlike the Terrans in Starcraft, humanity in Star Wars, especially Imperials like the Sith Empire or Galactic Empire do not hesitate to raze planets or destroy star systems.


The terrans in Starcraft nuke the shit out of planets on a whim in all reality, they've just become much more accustomed to covering it up or going "oopsie, whatever happened to that planet"
the reason that isn't their answer to zerg attacks all the time is due mostly to how they can actually apply said force.
There was one instance a terran fleet tried to stop a zerg attack on a planet.
It took seconds for dozens of battlecruisers to be utterly overwhelmed by a cloud of zerg, and that wasn't even a particularly large force.

that said, remember that picture I posted earlier with the hole through the middle of the planet?
There were zerg on that planet.
their underground hives survived the hit.

Attacking the zerg from space also requires them to deal with  a bunch of tiny but numerous glass cannons able to attack en masse  and actually penetrate the shielding(though AoE limitations will still require the star destroyers to take quite a few hits before going down in most cases). Mutalisks hit hard enough to harm carriers, which scale to their DC (it took a number of large protoss ships implied to be carriers[and not really capable of being anything else in current canon without really breaking from logical sense and giving them even better stats] some time to destroy a carrier.) and Scourge are among the nastiest things below planet level SC has to chuck at things.
Leviathans are only a problem if the zerg machine ramps up industrially though. Not that they can't hit hard and be more than a match for any star destroyer without "super" in the title individually, but they're a new development and the zerg don't have a whole ton on hand.

on the other hand, even a tiny force like the one sent to assault mar sara had at least five thousand mutalisks IIRC.
If "tactical planning"(read: PIS) is off they can grow pretty dang exponentially though.


> Ignoring the massive FTL advantage the Empire has, they can spam probe droids in the millions with just a single task force to map out the Zerg's locations, numbers, and collect data
> Hyperwave transcievers and FTL communications also are a huge bonus as well as the Holonet.


where is the FTL advantage coming from?
The zerg don't actually have a travel speed for their wormholes.
They just fold space, go through to a different sector of space, and then go about their business. 
it's teleportation with a set-up time.
Kerrigan, in particular, was able to make a portal into the void, the space between universes, relatively casually and of a size more than large enough for the Arkship, the Hyperion, her personal leviathan, and an unknown amount of other forces(though far from the entire army of assets.)
so odds are leviathans won't have that much more of an issue. worst-case scenario: multiple jumps.
She IS limited by knowledge and sensory range, but aside from the fact she has a fairly respectable telepathic range to sense people and things, the zerg can absorb knowledge from infestation and can actually biologically interact with and power equipment, so as long as they find one person, they're good.
even ignoring Kerrigan they also have queens capable of interstellar telepathy for communication, with mindfuck, so finding/going to populated areas shouldn't be too hard.

that said, yeah, I wouldn't be that surprised if they were found relatively quickly. zerg don't show up well on most sensors but probe droids are above anything they've evaded before, without being completely underground at least.



> Well the empire has dealt with quickly spreading threats before. Like the Blackwing virus or the Rakghoul Plague. Add that to the technological advantages and the sithspawn Sideous has running around and the Empire should take it. Though it might be different if the invasion starts in Hutt Space.


That's a different sort of spread issue though, not to mention blackwing virus and Rakghoul plague create far inferior creatures.
Both those viruses are just sort of a mindless bio-weapon that spreads anywhere with inhabitants.
the zerg have all the advantages of exponential growth and unthinking loyal soldiers but they have tactical planning and intelligence on top. they can choose to spread in an unpredictable pattern or into places that or most problematic for their enemies.
because of this they can also choose to use actual stealth, or target very specific vulnerable parts of the empire to attack. moreover the average zergling, far from being a mindless zombie, is a creature with the strength, speed and durability to smash a modern-day military platoon. and that's basically the weakest zerg. Add to that the fact they use actual tactics instead of just hording an opponent and it's more like fighting a proper military force with better than normal on-site reconnaisance due to their hive-mind.

Also importantly, they're not limited like an infection in the slightest. A drone can land on some uninhabited asteroid, become a hatchery, and in a week a zerg colony supplying fresh reinforcements and with an army several tens of thousands strong is already finished. they don't really need humans, animals, or even organic material, though all of those are pluses and will get infested if they're there(the zerg can literally infest and weaponize trees), but they can find some barren world like hoth and have a billions strong new army there in a month.


The main issue they have is generally just going to be ramping up their exponential production fast enough to the point they get to match the already ridiculous production of the empire(without dying)


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## Fang (May 7, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> The terrans in Starcraft nuke the shit out of planets on a whim in all reality,



Nuking isn't the same as completely razing a planet's surface to molten slag.



> It took seconds for dozens of battlecruisers to be utterly overwhelmed by a cloud of zerg, and that wasn't even a particularly large force.



That's because the Confederacy is Trek level incompetent. Not too mention how Mengsk was able to take them down.



> that said, remember that picture I posted earlier with the hole through the middle of the planet?
> There were zerg on that planet.
> their underground hives survived the hit.



Base-Delta-Zero destroys even the entire upper mantle and crust of a planet.



> Attacking the zerg from space also requires them to deal with  a bunch of tiny but numerous glass cannons able to attack en masse  and actually penetrate the shielding(though AoE limitations will still require the star destroyers to take quite a few hits before going down in most cases).



Star Destroyers have hundreds of point-defense emplacements and anti-fighter turrets designed to protect them from fighters and missile or torpedo attacks. And can fire from light-minute ranges, its not going to be an issue. And you are falsely under the belief that you seem to think the Empire's war fleets are made up of nothing but Star Destroyers, they have hundreds of different capital ships designed for different roles in combined fleet tactics; carriers, gunships, picket-ships, battleships, heavy cruisers, battle stations, missile and gun platforms, drone/droid operated fighters, etc...



> Mutalisks hit hard enough to harm carriers, which scale to their DC (it took a number of large protoss ships implied to be carriers[and not really capable of being anything else in current canon without really breaking from logical sense and giving them even better stats] some time to destroy a carrier.) and Scourge are among the nastiest things below planet level SC has to chuck at things.
> Leviathans are only a problem if the zerg machine ramps up industrially though. Not that they can't hit hard and be more than a match for any star destroyer without "super" in the title individually, but they're a new development and the zerg don't have a whole ton on hand.



Mutalisks require a shit tons of them to be an issue to any lone warship.



> on the other hand, even a tiny force like the one sent to assault mar sara had at least five thousand mutalisks IIRC.
> If "tactical planning"(read: PIS) is off they can grow pretty dang exponentially though.



The Empire's Starfighter Corps is likely in the trillions, and that's just counting the human pilots and not droid or AI ones.



> where is the FTL advantage coming from?



You mean besides the fact that hyperdrive even on ships slower then military rated ones by huge margins are able to jump from one end of the galaxy to another in a few hours?



> The zerg don't actually have a travel speed for their wormholes.



Do they or don't they?



> They just fold space, go through to a different sector of space, and then go about their business.
> it's teleportation with a set-up time.



That's a big weakness because of the Empire learns they require time to prep wormholes, they will and can simply raid into an area, attack whatever mustering they're prepping and they leave again via micro-jumping in hyperspace. Which has been a long documented naval war tactic since hyperdrives have been a thing in GFFA.



> Kerrigan, in particular, was able to make a portal into the void, the space between universes, relatively casually and of a size more than large enough for the Arkship, the Hyperion, her personal leviathan, and an unknown amount of other forces(though far from the entire army of assets.)



None of that is giving me any information on her wormhole power making ability, I have no idea what any of that is or what its supposed to be scale wise.



> so odds are leviathans won't have that much more of an issue. worst-case scenario: multiple jumps.



Like I said, micro-jumping is a fairly common tactic with hyperdrive to blitz and surprise attack enemy forces in Star Wars. Its also extremely dangerous to deal with and difficult to counter unless you have the equivalent to a interdictor that can create a mass shadow of a planet to prevent hyperspace jumping in the first place.



> She IS limited by knowledge and sensory range, but aside from the fact she has a fairly respectable telepathic range to sense people and things, the zerg can absorb knowledge from infestation and can actually biologically interact with and power equipment, so as long as they find one person, they're good.



The problem is no one has stated where this magical invasion is starting from so I'm just going with common sense she's starting her invasion in the ass end of the galaxy where population is sparse. Also you know the Emperor's ability to scry the future, precognitive powers, and clairvoyance will probably sense whatever disturbances Kerrigan is making once the Zerg start expanding aggressively.



> even ignoring Kerrigan they also have queens capable of interstellar telepathy for communication, with mindfuck, so finding/going to populated areas shouldn't be too hard.



You might want to hope Kerrigan is canny enough to realize if she ever senses or understands the threat of Vader or the Emperor that they don't want to draw that sort of attention to themselves.



> that said, yeah, I wouldn't be that surprised if they were found relatively quickly. zerg don't show up well on most sensors but probe droids are above anything they've evaded before, without being completely underground at least.





			
				Viper Probe Droid said:
			
		

> The lightly-armored Viper droid measured 1.6 meters in height with six manipulator arms extending from a central pod and several retractable sensor arms for gathering samples. *High resolution receivers and sensors covered the domed head—including motion, acoustic, sonic, and seismic sensors, a radiation meter, magnetic imager, and holocamera. It had an atmosphere sensor capable of determining a planet's atmosphere class within one half-hour.* It moved on a repulsorlift generator which was equipped to operate over any terrain.One of the arms was high-torque, and the droid was equipped with a floodlight on its head.





> That's a different sort of spread issue though, not to mention blackwing virus and Rakghoul plague create far inferior creatures.



Not really. Rakghouls were created via dark side alchemy and will literally fuck most things up, the plague variant doesn't just effect humans either. And the Blackwing virus has nothing in common with either the Rakghouls or the Zerg nor should you remotely dismiss it considering it was considered a pandemic that would threaten the entire galaxy and also augmented by it being developed by dark side alchemy. If either of those make contact with the Zerg, they are pretty fucked.



> Also importantly, they're not limited like an infection in the slightest. A drone can land on some uninhabited asteroid, become a hatchery, and in a week a zerg colony supplying fresh reinforcements and with an army several tens of thousands strong is already finished. they don't really need humans, animals, or even organic material, though all of those are pluses and will get infested if they're there(the zerg can literally infest and weaponize trees), but they can find some barren world like hoth and have a billions strong new army there in a month.



When did the Zerg get this silly? The original games straight up told us they required planets with actual life forms to grow and evolve. Now the expanded material says they don't even need that?



> The main issue they have is generally just going to be ramping up their exponential production fast enough to the point they get to match the already ridiculous production of the empire(without dying)



The main issue is unless the Empire is literally doing nothing the whole time and Sidious and the other high ranking Imperials are simply fucking off, their chances of making it from the Unknown Regions even to the Mid-Rim are pretty slim. There's another more common type of WMD the Empire loves using, Orbital Nightcloaks. If the Zerg take over a small or unimportant planet, they'd deploy a shit ton of weather satellites that remove any light or heat from making contact with the planet's surface, eventually very rapidly in days it'll create a new ice age on the planet freezing everything to death.[/quote]


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## Huey Freeman (May 7, 2016)

Depends on how this plays out

Empire stops them hard if they are just manifesting in he Galaxy. 

However if the Zerg left uncheck and infest tech or worst force users then things can get interesting.


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## AgentAAA (May 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> Nuking isn't the same as completely razing a planet's surface to molten slag.


Razing a planet's surface to molten slag isn't much different from completely rendering the planet into a black ball of glass either.



> That's because the Confederacy is Trek level incompetent. Not too mention how Mengsk was able to take them down.


not really.
the rifts opened, the battlecruisers opened fire on the surprise threat they didn't know was coming.
they then got completely ripped to shreds.
no trek level incompetency involved there.

Mengsk took them down by using the zerg.
He was working through the rebellion that was enthralling them for a while, but take away the zerg, and there is absolutely no chance he would have actually taken down the Confederacy.
there was better chances of the rebellion crushing the empire with PIS off and Palpatine taking them seriously.




> Base-Delta-Zero destroys even the entire upper mantle and crust of a planet.


you saw the part where one of the beams went through the planet core with plasma right?
the rest of the planet is being baked at the same time. The core wasn't "blasted apart", it was melted through.
not only did certain terran emplacements actually survive due to neo-steel being inconsistently durable, hundreds of zerg hives were still burrowed too deep for that to completely destroy.
Zerg can survive in ridiculously extreme conditions.



> Star Destroyers have hundreds of point-defense emplacements and anti-fighter turrets designed to protect them from fighters and missile or torpedo attacks. And can fire from light-minute ranges, its not going to be an issue. And you are falsely under the belief that you seem to think the Empire's war fleets are made up of nothing but Star Destroyers, they have hundreds of different capital ships designed for different roles in combined fleet tactics; carriers, gunships, picket-ships, battleships, heavy cruisers, battle stations, missile and gun platforms, drone/droid operated fighters, etc...


While true, it's not like they can't still get taken out by mutalisks, devourers, scourge, etc.
star destroyers do have hundreds of point-defense emplacements and anti-fighter turrets, but that's not really any different than the terran battlecruisers. The problem is actually hitting the things, given they're faster than the fighters they already have difficulty with while being far smaller.
I reference star destroyers because they've got the best DC and Dura feats. Mutalisks won't do any worse vs. most of these, and given how easy to create and numerous scourge are, and how even one can cause cataclysmic damage to a battlecruiser... There's not a lot stopping them from rushing ten thousand with support at an opponent.
Honestly, fighter v fighter might be the better bet to deal with that sort of thing.




> Mutalisks require a shit tons of them to be an issue to any lone warship.


Mutalisks don't really require a shit ton to destroy a warship.
I don't even need to reference some obscure feat. Watch the final cutscene of the original starcraft:
Devourers and corruptors meanwhile scale to wraiths, vikings, and Etc., which are able to be threatening to a battlecruiser in as low of numbers as half a dozen going off flashpoint.
the literal reason that only wraiths and battlecruisers exist for terran warships, is due to the fact a wing of wraiths was cheaper and outperformed frigates and etc. in terms of damage while their maneuverability allowed them to actually outlast the average frigates.
The same wraiths were considered less maneuverable than the average mutalisk.




> The Empire's Starfighter Corps is likely in the trillions, and that's just counting the human pilots and not droid or AI ones.


likely?
I don't doubt you on this one, but wondering on the info at this point.



> You mean besides the fact that hyperdrive even on ships slower then military rated ones by huge margins are able to jump from one end of the galaxy to another in a few hours?


how does that help against "I move from here to here almost instantly"?



> Do they or don't they?


They don't.
changing where space is doesn't actually have a speed.
it's basically like giving teleportation a speed.
it also means you can't track where they're going to be until they get there and the rift opens, either.


That's a big weakness because of the Empire learns they require time to prep wormholes, they will and can simply raid into an area, attack whatever mustering they're prepping and they leave again via micro-jumping in hyperspace. Which has been a long documented naval war tactic since hyperdrives have been a thing in GFFA.




> None of that is giving me any information on her wormhole power making ability, I have no idea what any of that is or what its supposed to be scale wise.


it means she's got wormhole range that allows her to create them well outside of the local universe... which should give considerable range.
The void is a physical space in-between different universes which lends to the idea that her range is easily at least universal with the right coordinates, though given the fact that all zerg interstellar travel was due to her for a long while, at least quite a bit farther than one galactic sector.




> Like I said, micro-jumping is a fairly common tactic with hyperdrive to blitz and surprise attack enemy forces in Star Wars. Its also extremely dangerous to deal with and difficult to counter unless you have the equivalent to a interdictor that can create a mass shadow of a planet to prevent hyperspace jumping in the first place.


The zerg can counter just as easily with wormhole harassment, not to mention their telepathic sensing abilities work to inform them of incoming terran/protoss FTL to combat it. it'd probably be as helpful here.
they don't have an interdictor, but the Vipers ability to grab onto the star destroyers might both be silly and helpful here.
helps the Leviathans have actual grasping tendrils to hold things in place as well as some goo they fire that is considered a "bio-stasis" attack, and basically appears to weigh down the recipient with biological matter. it allows them to completely cover a battlecruiser, among other things.
i've no idea what that would do to Empire FTL, but it should be noted it wouldn't be a new tactic for the zerg to deal with. Terrans use tactical FTL pretty dang often too in lore. You actually get to play the hyperion and use the tactical jumps to dodge incoming mines and other attacks in one of the Heart of The Swarm missions.



> The problem is no one has stated where this magical invasion is starting from so I'm just going with common sense she's starting her invasion in the ass end of the galaxy where population is sparse. Also you know the Emperor's ability to scry the future, precognitive powers, and clairvoyance will probably sense whatever disturbances Kerrigan is making once the Zerg start expanding aggressively.


Would that even require her to do that?



> You might want to hope Kerrigan is canny enough to realize if she ever senses or understands the threat of Vader or the Emperor that they don't want to draw that sort of attention to themselves.


Well if we want to discuss how this actually goes IC:
it ends in a chess game for eighty years with them being uneasy allies until one finally feels confident enough to betray the other and satisfied with the idea they can steal the other person's power. which may or may not work and is at least 70/30 in Sidious' favor.








> Not really. Rakghouls were created via dark side alchemy and will literally fuck most things up, the plague variant doesn't just effect humans either. And the Blackwing virus has nothing in common with either the Rakghouls or the Zerg nor should you remotely dismiss it considering it was considered a pandemic that would threaten the entire galaxy and also augmented by it being developed by dark side alchemy. If either of those make contact with the Zerg, they are pretty fucked.


The zerg are pretty experienced in dealing with similar things.
They started off by eating their gods and moved up from there.
though I don't really recall rakghoul feats, IIRC any character worth their salt could deal with them.
I'd discuss it but not really the point here.
either way, they still have to work with predictability and organic infection. The zerg are more of a traditional force without an actual population or morality issues. they're easier to compare to machines in that manner.



> When did the Zerg get this silly? The original games straight up told us they required planets with actual life forms to grow and evolve. Now the expanded material says they don't even need that?


To evolve? yes.
The Zerg are a biological borg of sorts. They constantly find new sources of biological material to expand and evolve. It's almost a weakness in that it's essentially a paranoia of most zerg to stay stagnant in terms of breeds. They obtain new genetic material and use it to obtain new DNA to implement into new zerg strains or improve old ones. They can also do this through several other methods. (abathur's evolution missions include some completely original creations of his, some of which are created through breeding methods, and the banelings were created by constantly feeding zerglings a specific type of explosive fungus), but it's not a part of how they actually supply themselves in terms of used material. they just convert harvested materials into resources. They can use biological materials as early as liberty's crusade as extra nutrients to create more zerg, but inorganic materials appear to work equally well and are mined by the zerg for that reason. When a planet's infested it's basically just turned into a giant hollowing operation as it's described in lore, being a plot point to deny the zerg certain materials in some bits of lore.

Mineral clusters and vespene gas clusters are preferred due to just how good they are at giving the zerg necessary material quickly, though.

Shadows of the Xel'naga was all about a new cerebrate getting sent to secure a nearly barren rock with nothing but what some colonists grew near one small town, and a few native fungi, and it took one drone and converted it into an army capable of taking on a terran and protoss fleet, and big enough to be willing to throw away over a hundred thousand zerg on one colonist town without being noticeably weakened or even concerned on losing the army.
All the original games stated was that they needed to infest new life forms to continue to evolve. which is still sort of true - for the short term it's accurate.




> The main issue is unless the Empire is literally doing nothing the whole time and Sidious and the other high ranking Imperials are simply fucking off, their chances of making it from the Unknown Regions even to the Mid-Rim are pretty slim. There's another more common type of WMD the Empire loves using, Orbital Nightcloaks. If the Zerg take over a small or unimportant planet, they'd deploy a shit ton of weather satellites that remove any light or heat from making contact with the planet's surface, eventually very rapidly in days it'll create a new ice age on the planet freezing everything to death.


Zerg are able to deal with that.
there's an entire mission in Heart of the Swarm about them making special adaptations to deal with a planet far colder than normal, to the point zerg could instantly freeze solid depending on the time of day.
the whole thing with zerg fighting on space platforms or without atmosphere isn't just a gameplay mechanic either. they don't need heat or light.
Though I have no idea why they'd leave these in orbit regardless. something from the planet would puke something at the satellites.

as far as WMD's, additionally?
The Zerg "virus" has a host of different strains, which is significantly virulent and can become waterborne, so if it just comes down to WMD's they're quite capable of subtly seeding worlds with the zerg virus. they have a bio-weapon that can't really turn on them and which is currently considered impossible to cure in SCverse due to the fact it's basically mutated into an almost completely new thing in days.
though in general given the virus appears to be sentient I'm not sure if it actually falls under the strict definition. it seems to be more of a cellular thing.


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## Stermor (May 7, 2016)

isn't the answer pretty much kerrigan finds some random force user? the zerg take him over.. and a few weeks later you have force using zerg. 

and then the empire dies..


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## Kaaant (May 7, 2016)

The Zerg aren't going to handle the force. Suffice to say there aren't many force users in existence after palpatine was done with them, let alone any that'd give palpatine pause for thought (spoiler: none). Force using Zerg'd turn on themselves as sure as they'd use it on others.

So no. I'm not seeing what's stopping palpatine from soul and mind raping on a galactic scale.


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## Fang (May 7, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Razing a planet's surface to molten slag isn't much different from completely rendering the planet into a black ball of glass either.



One is burning the surface hot enough to inflict damage to the area without destroying the crust or mantle, the other is more. Its more then a superficial difference.



> not really.
> the rifts opened, the battlecruisers opened fire on the surprise threat they didn't know was coming.
> they then got completely ripped to shreds.
> no trek level incompetency involved there.
> ...



Not really a valid excuse. They weren't able to suppress rebellion's in the sector to begin with, Mengsk was a wanted man, and they repeatedly ended up botching assassinations and crackdowns to the point that popular support rapidly swung into his favor. Maybe not totally incompetent but their mishandling is the main reason why he was able to get away with the coup and take them down.



> you saw the part where one of the beams went through the planet core with plasma right?
> the rest of the planet is being baked at the same time. The core wasn't "blasted apart", it was melted through.
> not only did certain terran emplacements actually survive due to neo-steel being inconsistently durable, hundreds of zerg hives were still burrowed too deep for that to completely destroy.
> Zerg can survive in ridiculously extreme conditions.



Inconsistency isn't really an argument you want to be making.



> While true, it's not like they can't still get taken out by mutalisks, devourers, scourge, etc.
> star destroyers do have hundreds of point-defense emplacements and anti-fighter turrets, but that's not really any different than the terran battlecruisers. The problem is actually hitting the things, given they're faster than the fighters they already have difficulty with while being far smaller.



They aren't faster then Star Wars universe snubfighters or starfighters. They don't have much difficulty with hitting them either, and I'm pretty confident the average ISD is more heavily outfitted with guns and turrets then a Terran Battlecruiser; same with armor and shielding in terms of defense. Also Venators are still commonly used and they house hundreds of starfighters and usually are situated even in the small fleet as 3-5 units, so several thousand starfighters will be screening capital ships at any given time not even getting into fleet carriers or those on ISDs and other destroyer classes themselves.

Taking them down isn't impossible but its going to be a lot harder given the way the Empire handles its fleets vs the Terrans in Starcraft.



> I reference star destroyers because they've got the best DC and Dura feats. Mutalisks won't do any worse vs. most of these, and given how easy to create and numerous scourge are, and how even one can cause cataclysmic damage to a battlecruiser... There's not a lot stopping them from rushing ten thousand with support at an opponent.
> Honestly, fighter v fighter might be the better bet to deal with that sort of thing.



We've seen that even medium class turbolaser turrets output beams the size of football fields in width right here, so while it makes sense for the Empire to screen and protect/escort their warships with Ties and other starfighters, they aren't helpless on their own. A single blast would probably atomize several hundreds of Mutalisks alone from just one of those.



> Mutalisks don't really require a shit ton to destroy a warship.
> I don't even need to reference some obscure feat. Watch the final cutscene of the original starcraft:
> Devourers and corruptors meanwhile scale to wraiths, vikings, and Etc., which are able to be threatening to a battlecruiser in as low of numbers as half a dozen going off flashpoint.
> the literal reason that only wraiths and battlecruisers exist for terran warships, is due to the fact a wing of wraiths was cheaper and outperformed frigates and etc. in terms of damage while their maneuverability allowed them to actually outlast the average frigates.
> The same wraiths were considered less maneuverable than the average mutalisk.



I don't get what is supposed to be impressive about this cinametic. It just shows a Mutalisk flying inside of a damaged carrier and attacking it internally.



> likely?
> I don't doubt you on this one, but wondering on the info at this point.



Because there are shit tons of Imperial Starfighters garrisoned all around the galaxy; with space stations, on planets, moons, asteroid bases, military headquarters (local, planetary, sub-sector, sector, etc...), fleets, etc...



> how does that help against "I move from here to here almost instantly"?



It helps plenty when the Empire can literally transit their military forces across the galaxy in hours time or less, it certainly also is something the Zerg aren't accustomed to at all.



> They don't.
> changing where space is doesn't actually have a speed.
> it's basically like giving teleportation a speed.
> it also means you can't track where they're going to be until they get there and the rift opens, either.



How do you know the Empire can't track them? They can attach a probe or tracking device to one of the Zerg to keep track of where their going or mustering.



> it means she's got wormhole range that allows her to create them well outside of the local universe... which should give considerable range.
> The void is a physical space in-between different universes which lends to the idea that her range is easily at least universal with the right coordinates, though given the fact that all zerg interstellar travel was due to her for a long while, at least quite a bit farther than one galactic sector.



How is that range universal? How does she even know where she's plotting in a completely different universe altogether?



> The zerg can counter just as easily with wormhole harassment, not to mention their telepathic sensing abilities work to inform them of incoming terran/protoss FTL to combat it. it'd probably be as helpful here.
> they don't have an interdictor, but the Vipers ability to grab onto the star destroyers might both be silly and helpful here.



How is "wormhole" harrsment going to work against an enemy who can spam warships jumping in and out of FTL speeds while doing barrages on their forces? Also unless Vipers can simulate the mass shadow of an entire actual planet's gravity well, that's not going to work.




> helps the Leviathans have actual grasping tendrils to hold things in place as well as some goo they fire that is considered a "bio-stasis" attack, and basically appears to weigh down the recipient with biological matter. it allows them to completely cover a battlecruiser, among other things.
> i've no idea what that would do to Empire FTL, but it should be noted it wouldn't be a new tactic for the zerg to deal with. Terrans use tactical FTL pretty dang often too in lore. You actually get to play the hyperion and use the tactical jumps to dodge incoming mines and other attacks in one of the Heart of The Swarm missions.



Like I said. The only way to stop a ship already jumping in hyperspace is to artificially simulate a gravity well of an entire planet to force the ship out of hyperspace. Unless this goo is going to weigh down with a planet's worth of mass, its not going to prevent them from accelerating past lightspeed. I also should mention organic matter doesn't survive in hyperspace so anything on the warships will be essentially removed from existence here.



> Would that even require her to do that?



Require her to do what? Are you asking what the difference means starting in the Unknown Regions vs the galaxy proper?



> Well if we want to discuss how this actually goes IC:
> it ends in a chess game for eighty years with them being uneasy allies until one finally feels confident enough to betray the other and satisfied with the idea they can steal the other person's power. which may or may not work and is at least 70/30 in Sidious' favor.



Oh?




> The zerg are pretty experienced in dealing with similar things.
> They started off by eating their gods and moved up from there.
> though I don't really recall rakghoul feats, IIRC any character worth their salt could deal with them.
> I'd discuss it but not really the point here.
> either way, they still have to work with predictability and organic infection. The zerg are more of a traditional force without an actual population or morality issues. they're easier to compare to machines in that manner.



The Zerg have dealt with something that was artificially created via mystical means? Because the Rakghouls will keep spreading and infecting every living thing unless contained; sentient or non-sentient.



> To evolve? yes.
> The Zerg are a biological borg of sorts. They constantly find new sources of biological material to expand and evolve. It's almost a weakness in that it's essentially a paranoia of most zerg to stay stagnant in terms of breeds. They obtain new genetic material and use it to obtain new DNA to implement into new zerg strains or improve old ones. They can also do this through several other methods. (abathur's evolution missions include some completely original creations of his, some of which are created through breeding methods, and the banelings were created by constantly feeding zerglings a specific type of explosive fungus), but it's not a part of how they actually supply themselves in terms of used material. they just convert harvested materials into resources. They can use biological materials as early as liberty's crusade as extra nutrients to create more zerg, but inorganic materials appear to work equally well and are mined by the zerg for that reason. When a planet's infested it's basically just turned into a giant hollowing operation as it's described in lore, being a plot point to deny the zerg certain materials in some bits of lore.
> 
> Mineral clusters and vespene gas clusters are preferred due to just how good they are at giving the zerg necessary material quickly, though.
> ...



I see.



> Zerg are able to deal with that.
> there's an entire mission in Heart of the Swarm about them making special adaptations to deal with a planet far colder than normal, to the point zerg could instantly freeze solid depending on the time of day.
> the whole thing with zerg fighting on space platforms or without atmosphere isn't just a gameplay mechanic either. they don't need heat or light.
> Though I have no idea why they'd leave these in orbit regardless. something from the planet would puke something at the satellites.
> ...



Oribital nightcloak doesn't make it simply colder. It literally creates an artificial ice age that keeps the planet trapped in darkness, prevents any sort of heat or light from reaching said world and is designed as a literal siege weapon. Its such a prevalent and common weapon tactic every single officer from the rank of Commander and higher has access to them.

There's a big difference adapting to the cold vs being literal frozen in ice in the matter of days or hours.


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## Swarmy (May 7, 2016)

Stermor said:


> isn't the answer pretty much kerrigan finds some random force user? the zerg take him over.. and a few weeks later you have force using zerg.
> 
> and then the empire dies..





Kaaant said:


> The Zerg aren't going to handle the force. Suffice to say there aren't many force users in existence after palpatine was done with them, let alone any that'd give palpatine pause for thought (spoiler: none). Force using Zerg'd turn on themselves as sure as they'd use it on others.
> 
> So no. I'm not seeing what's stopping palpatine from soul and mind raping on a galactic scale.



The Killik could already do this, they can breed force sensitive individuals so it's possible.


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## Fang (May 7, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> The Zerg aren't going to handle the force. Suffice to say there aren't many force users in existence after palpatine was done with them, let alone any that'd give palpatine pause for thought (spoiler: none). Force using Zerg'd turn on themselves as sure as they'd use it on others.
> 
> So no. I'm not seeing what's stopping palpatine from soul and mind raping on a galactic scale.



Yeah if I remember right even assimilating some of the Xel-Naga and Protoss didn't give them the same psychic abilities as the average Protoss.


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## Fang (May 7, 2016)

Swarmy said:


> The Killik could already do this, they can breed force sensitive individuals so it's possible.



The Killik's didn't breed any Force-Users. When Raynar Thul became joined with the Nest, his Force powers bolstered the mental influence the hive had, making it a lot easier for them to force more Joiners into the Nest. His power got a huge bolstering by having the collective Force potential and sensitivity of the whole Killik species add to his own which enabled him to even suppress the mental powers of other Force-Users like Jaina Solo.


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## Swarmy (May 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> The Killik's didn't breed any Force-Users. When Raynar Thul became joined with the Nest, his Force powers bolstered the mental influence the hive had, making it a lot easier for them to force more Joiners into the Nest. His power got a huge bolstering by having the collective Force potential and sensitivity of the whole Killik species add to his own which enabled him to even suppress the mental powers of other Force-Users like Jaina Solo.







> Though the species as a whole was not Force-sensitive, certain types of Killik could be bred to use  in simple ways.


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## Fang (May 7, 2016)

By certain types, a breed that only shows up in rare cases and only due to the fact that a Force-User joined with them in the first place. And this was only witnessed after Thul became one with the Killiks.

Also Zerg aren't from the Star Wars universe and have no affinity with the Force, so its still astronomically unlikely to happen.


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## Kaaant (May 7, 2016)

You want to bring the Zerg into the fold of using the force, gonna have to deal with the implication of Zerg's going mad with the darkside and killing each other.

Meanwhile Palpatine will be straight mind raping his way across Zerg occupied space, from the comfort of his living room.


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## Swarmy (May 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> Also Zerg aren't from the Star Wars universe and have no affinity with the Force, so its still astronomically unlikely to happen.



When they assimilate force sensitives they can adapt to be able to use it.



Kaaant said:


> You want to bring the Zerg into the fold of using the force, gonna have to deal with the implication of Zerg's going mad with the darkside and killing each other.
> 
> Meanwhile Palpatine will be straight mind raping his way across Zerg occupied space, from the comfort of his living room.



Their hive mind will prevent them, it's like the whole swarm will be one single individual.

How strong is he anyway? I'm only up to date with the movies.


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## Fang (May 7, 2016)

Swarmy said:


> When they assimilate force sensitives they can adapt to be able to use it.



Nothing says they can assimilate the Force.



> Their hive mind will prevent them, it's like the whole swarm will be one single individual.



I severely doubt the entirety of the Zerg Hive-mind is going to stand up to the ravages of the dark side.



> How strong is he anyway? I'm only up to date with the movies.



A lot stronger then Kerrigan at his peak. His mere presence when talking with Count Dooku was causing large scale planetary storms. Just his fucking projected image in the Force did this.


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## Swarmy (May 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> Nothing says they can assimilate the Force.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nothing says they can't as well, after all when they assimilate psychics they acquire their powers too. Also they can always just infest force users and use them.

Maybe, if they can't control it.

Hmmm yet he died pretty easily.


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## Fang (May 7, 2016)

Swarmy said:


> Nothing says they can't as well, after all when they assimilate psychics they acquire their powers too. Also they can always just infest force users and use them.



Except it being a no limits fallacy. The Force operates differently from anything the Zerg have ever encountered, so writing it off as being a guarantee for the Zerg is stupid. Also like Kaant said, the number of Force-Users is stupidly low anyways so the chances of them finding a decently powerful Force-User are next to nil.



> Maybe, if they can't control it.



What's going to happen even if it did work is a bunch of Overmind's getting corrupted and striking out on their own and causing a Zerg civil war.



> Hmmm yet he died pretty easily.



You mean the Palpatine's whose physical death required the releasing of a large level of energy that would wreck a star destroyer? It was a low point, Starcraft is filled with them too.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Swarmy (May 7, 2016)

I see  Well good thing they got Sidious then


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## Kaaant (May 7, 2016)

Swarmy said:


> Their hive mind will prevent them, it's like the whole swarm will be one single individual.



Not when something like the force is introduced into the mix. When the killik absorbed Raynar his force sensitivity fundamentally changed the whole colony iirc. And when he left the colony reverted back to its original state. 

Good luck to the Zerg even trying to grasp the basics of the force when it takes a lifetime to learn, and only a handful in an era master it. 




> How strong is he anyway?



"How strong is he anyway"

Niga. 

We're talking about a guy that possibly pulled the wool over the galactic community's eyes as he buried a 19KM star destroyer in the galactic capital, a guy that mind rapes force users across the galaxy casually. Who even in death, isn't done, muses he could take over any being in the galaxy's body; and when he came back, came back stronger than ever before. He can create numerous planet razing wormholes in numerous star systems simultaneously. He can replenish his strength by draining it from others as well. He can do all this whilst he's taking a shit on your mother's face if he really wants.

And lastly it took a fair whack of, if not possibly every single light side force user in history to pull his spirit into the void forever. 



Check yourself.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Swarmy (May 7, 2016)

Well... damn...


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## Fang (May 7, 2016)

Even before getting into Dark Empire/Reborn Palpatine he can:

>mind-fuck entire planets (populations in the hundreds of billions to low trillions casually)
>confuse and even affect technology with his telepathic and Force powers
>casual use of Force Lightning on Bothuwai had him lighting up the entire planet's surface (he canonically solo's everything in that lore wise from Star Wars: Empire at War)
>can Force-Drain people of their life essence
>can possess people; effectively immortal
>mere holo-projected presence of Palpatine was causing large scale planetary storms on the planet Count Dooku was on when he was communicating with Palpatine who was on Coruscant
>can Force Choke people from across the galaxy merely with line of sight (he did this to Count Dooku in TCW season 6
>atomize people with TK
>has vaporized people into skeletons with Force Lightning
>his power in the Force even before training astounded Darth Plagueis; his future Sith master, whose mere presence was causing the planet of Naboo's temperature to shift and experienced the coldest winter in its history after he left
>even before Dark Empire he turned Byss; a vacation/resort world with a population of 20 billion into a dark side nexus and corrupted even the physical landscape of the planet on top of that; every single member of the civilian population is kept in a dream like hypnosis as Palpatine feds on them

Just a small list of what Palpy can do


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## Kaaant (May 7, 2016)

Then there was that one bit when palpatine started making force abilities up for fun once he'd stopped learning the ones already in existence. 

My question is can Palpatine go on a justified rape crusade against these chumps invading his empire, whilst the empire sits this one out?


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## AgentAAA (May 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> One is burning the surface hot enough to inflict damage to the area without destroying the crust or mantle, the other is more. Its more then a superficial difference.


The crust and mantle were completely burned through along with the rest of the planet.



> Not really a valid excuse. They weren't able to suppress rebellion's in the sector to begin with, Mengsk was a wanted man, and they repeatedly ended up botching assassinations and crackdowns to the point that popular support rapidly swung into his favor. Maybe not totally incompetent but their mishandling is the main reason why he was able to get away with the coup and take them down.


They actually did crack down, and the only reason Mengsk lived was the psi-emitters.
Antiga prime was the point they actually decided to take him seriously, and before Antiga?
He wasn't really a threat by himself.
Even with the Antigan Rebels, Mengsk wasn't a huge threat to them. Take away the zerg call they didn't know he'd obtained and he would have been captured and soon-dead on that rock.
It also helped he had the literal best ghost on his side when it came to assassinations. Kerrigan was a town level threat back when the confeds were struggling to find wall level psychics.
Oh, and Mengsk was a legitimate tactical genius at the time.



> Inconsistency isn't really an argument you want to be making.


Not really inconsistent except for how Neosteel has a varying durability depending on what they build with it.
OBD-wise that's only really a problem if someone tried giving Neo-steel itself a dura rather than just associated machines.
Sometimes it's able to survive petatons.
Completely off-point here though.



> They aren't faster then Star Wars universe snubfighters or starfighters.


Snub and starfighters out of hyperdrive are relativistic with reactions speeds at or approaching LS last I checked.
All the capital ships utilized by the zerg and protoss are 1.04C, with all their fighters at a very high + to that given they can flat out do strafing runs in motion. there's a lore that involves Mutalisks chasing down a carrier going top speed.



> They don't have much difficulty with hitting them either, and I'm pretty confident the average ISD is more heavily outfitted with guns and turrets then a Terran Battlecruiser; same with armor and shielding in terms of defense. Also Venators are still commonly used and they house hundreds of starfighters and usually are situated even in the small fleet as 3-5 units, so several thousand starfighters will be screening capital ships at any given time not even getting into fleet carriers or those on ISDs and other destroyer classes themselves.


battlecruisers sit around 145 point defenses, 25 different laser batteries, and 16 different missile launchers.
they are in the same ball park.
The battlecruisers scale to the above image of a plasma beam going all the way through a planet, and can take that same attack to their shields, so...
they're about the same to superior, particularly in the case of Gorgons which basically laugh off yamato.



> Taking them down isn't impossible but its going to be a lot harder given the way the Empire handles its fleets vs the Terrans in Starcraft.





> We've seen that even medium class turbolaser turrets output beams the size of football fields in width right here, so while it makes sense for the Empire to screen and protect/escort their warships with Ties and other starfighters, they aren't helpless on their own. A single blast would probably atomize several hundreds of Mutalisks alone from just one of those.


if they all ball up then sure.
Swarm generally splits up mutalisks to attack from a lot of different angles in small wings due to the fact the Terrans can spam Yamato, among other reasons.
if we scale Devourers to scouts they can probably just take a few of the hits, additionally.



> I don't get what is supposed to be impressive about this cinametic. It just shows a Mutalisk flying inside of a damaged carrier and attacking it internally.


Twas 2 mutalisks doing fairly significant damage to it's armor, though that's rather generously it's "internals".
I could also bring up the fact that in flashpoint a flock of Mutalisks gave Mengsk's new flagship the white star more trouble than 3 battlecruisers opening fire on it, one of which being the hyperion and all of which spamming Yamato's.

or just the fact that a swarm of dozens took out a carrier in... well, "Carrier".



> Because there are shit tons of Imperial Starfighters garrisoned all around the galaxy; with space stations, on planets, moons, asteroid bases, military headquarters (local, planetary, sub-sector, sector, etc...), fleets, etc...





> It helps plenty when the Empire can literally transit their military forces across the galaxy in hours time or less, it certainly also is something the Zerg aren't accustomed to at all.


meanwhile the zerg can just make the next 10 meters they traverse take them to the opposite side of the galaxy in a minute or two.




> How do you know the Empire can't track them? They can attach a probe or tracking device to one of the Zerg to keep track of where their going or mustering.


That much is possible though unlikely.
it's been tried before, but that whole hivemind and that whole lack of problem just killing something with a probe/tracking device on it doesn't really help.
They can also sense cloaking energies or transmitted signals such as the sensor towers used by the terrans, so they'd potentially get found the moment a swarm queen started to pay attention.




> How is that range universal? How does she even know where she's plotting in a completely different universe altogether?


She could Feel Amon.
Like I said, she still needs to know, and I'm not implying she'd insta port into Coruscant.
As for how that's universal?
Because it went to a physical space not even connected to the universe itself.
The void isn't a different dimension, it's just a different place in physical reality.
so same reason why you'd be at least universal if your abilities could reach a different universe, more or less.



> How is "wormhole" harrsment going to work against an enemy who can spam warships jumping in and out of FTL speeds while doing barrages on their forces? Also unless Vipers can simulate the mass shadow of an entire actual planet's gravity well, that's not going to work.


Because one works in seconds vs. another working in hours.
The Zerg can literally just choose to be elsewhere and they can do it faster.
ignoring that, while Vipers can't simulate the mass shadow of an entire planet.
they can grab and pull the ISD itself with their intestines.





> Like I said. The only way to stop a ship already jumping in hyperspace is to artificially simulate a gravity well of an entire planet to force the ship out of hyperspace. Unless this goo is going to weigh down with a planet's worth of mass, its not going to prevent them from accelerating past lightspeed. I also should mention organic matter doesn't survive in hyperspace so anything on the warships will be essentially removed from existence here.


it apparently freezes the functions of a normal ship when it's shot onto it, such as a battlecruiser, so it appears to be some sort of energy drain or the like.
it would also stop them from firing is a problem.



> Require her to do what? Are you asking what the difference means starting in the Unknown Regions vs the galaxy proper?


more I'm wondering why Palpy even needs that to sense her presence pre-cog wise TBH.
She'd be the strongest being that wasn't him in the SW Galaxy at the time IIRC. Depending on how we scale Yoda to Palps anyways.
Though I guess he's also doing shit like looking for the Yuuzhan vong and things like that, too.



> Oh?


BW kerrigan just basically manipulated the crap out of everyone with a hint of paranoia on keeping herself and her newfound empire safe. She wasn't a random conquest machine and was more interested in talking her way away from a confrontation until she was certain she could crush whatever threat appeared.





> The Zerg have dealt with something that was artificially created via mystical means? Because the Rakghouls will keep spreading and infecting every living thing unless contained; sentient or non-sentient.


What do you think the Zerg and protoss are? They were made by space-squids seeking to seed their next cycle of existence that would seed the next universe's life forms, before being corrupted, changed and empowered by one of the evil space squids, most of which is implied to be using psychic abilities.
not that said plague being artificially created via mystical means means much in the first place for feats, but both the zerg and the protoss were created by a high end psychic under controlled supervision.
the zerg themselves are all infectious and to gain zerg cells is to allow yourself to be accessed by the hive-mind, so at worst the Rakghouls don't get much from the zerg and at best they deal with Kerrigan mind-raping them into pretty new servants.




> Orbital nightcloak doesn't make it simply colder. It literally creates an artificial ice age that keeps the planet trapped in darkness, prevents any sort of heat or light from reaching said world and is designed as a literal siege weapon. Its such a prevalent and common weapon tactic every single officer from the rank of Commander and higher has access to them.
> 
> There's a big difference adapting to the cold vs being literal frozen in ice in the matter of days or hours.


or seconds.
which is what they were dealing with before.
as in a zergling turned into a solid block of ice within a second.
it should be noted that they can always just have their organic matter produce heat for them, as energy production is one of their many violations of physics rules, and that said freezing process didn't actually hurt any zerg life-form affected.
Kaldir wasn't "Simply colder" either, and was considered colder than the coldest reaches of deep space for an organism. didn't matter.
though again, why wouldn't they create a wormhole that opens next to the stationary satellite and pop a scourge through to blow it up in a bright plasma explosion?



> The Zerg aren't going to handle the force. Suffice to say there aren't many force users in existence after palpatine was done with them, let alone any that'd give palpatine pause for thought (spoiler: none). Force using Zerg'd turn on themselves as sure as they'd use it on others.
> 
> So no. I'm not seeing what's stopping palpatine from soul and mind raping on a galactic scale.


Force using zerg aren't likely to turn on themselves.
you don't seem to understand how the zerg strains work.
it's not as though they just pop out a force using zerg.
they design a strain with DNA from force users in order to cultivate the midi-chlorians, then they decide just what they want these specific strains to do.
there'd likely be a lot of experimental ones too tbf.
but since they're synced into the hivemind you're not going to have a problem at least until one somehow becomes stronger than Primal Kerrigan. even if you're sentient you're nonetheless vulnerable to Mindrape.
it should be noted she's capable of mutating and improving herself with beneficial DNA to improve her powers, btw.
so... yeah.
of course, if they just create one stronger than Kerrigan?
She's just get replaced no fuss.
The zerg that are sentient operate under a pretty easy to understand rule as it is: The most fit rule. They operate to further improve the hive and themselves more than anything else, so while they'd be jockeying for power, odds are it'd be more by gaining power rather than pointless backstabbing - though even then, when it comes to the latter, they're more than willing to use the DNA of fallen opponents, even zerg, to further improve themselves.
The queens were already given the directive to make sure the hivemind survives and becomes stronger at all costs. Not only are they unlikely to fall to the darkside, they're more likely to take it in a clinical manner and try the merits of both types of force manipulation, as well as combining it.
if they don't just use the "no light or dark" philosophy anyways.



> Yeah if I remember right even assimilating some of the Xel-Naga and Protoss didn't give them the same psychic abilities as the average Protoss.


They've been retconned to not have assimilated any of the Xel'naga(just like the Xel'naga were retconned into ridiculous psychic god-things  instead of just being really really smart scientists.) though they helped Amon fight the rest of them apparently.
As for the Protoss: they were incapable of properly infesting them. The Khala(and void) apparently protects them from being properly taken in.
They have managed to take in several psychic terrans, which is why the swarm queens and queens all have psychic capabilities of their own, some of which, like Zagara, are higher than the average protoss. this has given them things like independent broods and what are basically better cerebrates with all the general psychic abilities the terrans have.
The Leviathans are also probably psychic given that bending space to create wormholes is predominantly a psychic power, though it's not been explicitly stated(Though it's really not in doubt. There isn't some random infestable eggplant that bends space in the SC universe). as they are a recent thing, it's probably due to the terran infestation, as well.
Terrans are harder than average to infest apparently though. Their DNA is apparently so weak it mutates a lot faster than average for something with the zerg virus, which doesn't make it unusable but does make them tend to turn into gross blobs or other weak things upon infestation, and make them a little harder to work with, though not impossible.
The Non-humans of the star wars galaxy, on the other hand, have more reason to not be so special than to be.




> Except it being a no limits fallacy. The Force operates differently from anything the Zerg have ever encountered, so writing it off as being a guarantee for the Zerg is stupid. Also like Kaant said, the number of Force-Users is stupidly low anyways so the chances of them finding a decently powerful Force-User are next to nil.


It doesn't really operate that differently from psychic power.
they'd assimilate midi-chlorians into their genetic library and be able to add it to future zerg strains.
The stats you'd get out of that arent linear or just based on the original host, however, it's also possible to infest existing people and give them buffs.
Kerrigan went from something like low-mid Town+ Pre-infestation to her psychic power boosted to country-continent afterwards.
finding a force-sensitive is potentially problematic. They do have biological deep space probes they can send out, and ignoring that Kerrigan can feel psychic presence from a proximity dependent on relative strength, it's notable that all zerg have some degree of ability to sense psychic ability.



> Also Zerg aren't from the Star Wars universe and have no affinity with the Force, so its still astronomically unlikely to happen.


Don't really need to have an affinity. it's just a clearly biological way of tapping into a new type of energy field to do space magic.
unless midichlorians were changed in terms of how they work, which could have totally happened and I'd have no idea.



> My question is can Palpatine go on a justified rape crusade against these chumps invading his empire, whilst the empire sits this one out?


if we take PIS full-off it literally just comes down to "can kerrigan wormhole him first or not"
and if Palpatine's soul has special durability given Void users can blow up cerebrate souls.
if Palps dies Kerrigan can solo more or less the entire galaxy, and she has the advantage of being able to fully reconstitute herself as long as at least one zerg hatchery exists somewhere in the galaxy.
if Kerrigan dies and taking PIS off in general I don't actually see why Palps would ever need the empire's help. Old palps might need the assistance but if we actually use DE palps he's basically a force of nature beyond his own empire, and as I've stated before, DE palps just takes her out the moment he can hold her in one place long enough.
DE palps probably does make this an auto-lose for the zerg regardless, to note, as I've admitted earlier here.

Regardless if we just argue top-tiers it's probably not going to be as fun a discussion. the only thing the average zerg force can do about him is chuck scourges while wormholing away, though with their population they should probably be able to spread faster than old palpatine can do anything about. at the same time the only thing most imperial forces can do is have a localized gravity well grab their ship and rip it to shreds, or have an instantly mind-raped crew, or icreate a wormhole in the ship.



> >can Force Choke people from across the galaxy merely with line of sight (he did this to Count Dooku in TCW season 6


Does he actually need Line of sight? I thought that was just for sake of effect.


----------



## Fang (May 7, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> The crust and mantle were completely burned through along with the rest of the planet.



Show me it please.



> They actually did crack down, and the only reason Mengsk lived was the psi-emitters.
> Antiga prime was the point they actually decided to take him seriously, and before Antiga?
> He wasn't really a threat by himself.
> Even with the Antigan Rebels, Mengsk wasn't a huge threat to them. Take away the zerg call they didn't know he'd obtained and he would have been captured and soon-dead on that rock.
> ...



The books I remember reading stated the Confederacy repeatedly failed to actually stop him or the Sons from recruiting and attempts at censorship was blown up when they tried to use propaganda against Mengsk and other terrorists.



> Not really inconsistent except for how Neosteel has a varying durability depending on what they build with it.
> OBD-wise that's only really a problem if someone tried giving Neo-steel itself a dura rather than just associated machines.
> Sometimes it's able to survive petatons.
> Completely off-point here though.



So its sort of similar to durasteel then.



> Snub and starfighters out of hyperdrive are relativistic with reactions speeds at or approaching LS last I checked.



Light speed+ maneuvers were observed in the Vong War, so they can certainly go past c.



> All the capital ships utilized by the zerg and protoss are 1.04C, with all their fighters at a very high + to that given they can flat out do strafing runs in motion. there's a lore that involves Mutalisks chasing down a carrier going top speed.



The Death Star not even at full speed was capable of circumventing the gas giant, Yavin, in less than 5 minutes. Its the slowest military grade vessel in the Empire.



> battlecruisers sit around 145 point defenses, 25 different laser batteries, and 16 different missile launchers.
> they are in the same ball park.
> The battlecruisers scale to the above image of a plasma beam going all the way through a planet, and can take that same attack to their shields, so...
> they're about the same to superior, particularly in the case of Gorgons which basically laugh off yamato.



Mark-I Imperial-Class Star Destroyers:

- 2 quad-cannon heavy turbolaser turrets
- 6 dual-cannon heavy turbolaser turrets
- 3 triple-cannon mdium turbolaser turrets
- 2 medium cannon turbolaser turrets
- 60 single heavy cannon turbolaser turrets
- 60 single heavy ion cannon turrets
- 2 dual heavy ion cannon turrets
- unknown number of torpedo and missile launchers
- 10 tractor beam projectors
- at least 100 point-defense blaster cannons (AA)
- 72 Tie-Fighters (48 Tie/LNs, 12 Tie/SNs, 12 Tie/BRs)
- 5 heavy assault gunboats
- at least 1 gamma-class assault shuttle

Mark-II Imperial-Class Star Destroyers:

- 8 octuple-cannon heavy turbolaser turrets
- 50 single heavy cannon turbolaser turrets
- 50 single medium cannon turbolaser turrets
- 26+ single turbolaser batteries
- 20 heavy ion cannon turrets
- unknown number of torpedo and missile launchers
- 10 tractor beam projectors
- at least 100 point-defense blaster cannons (AA)
- 72 Tie-Fighters (Tie-LNs)
- 8 Lambda-class assault shuttles
- 5 assault gunboats
- 6+ variable wing blastboats
- at least 1 gamma-class assault shuttle



> if they all ball up then sure.
> Swarm generally splits up mutalisks to attack from a lot of different angles in small wings due to the fact the Terrans can spam Yamato, among other reasons.
> if we scale Devourers to scouts they can probably just take a few of the hits, additionally.



They aren't tanking hits from any turret or battery aimed for capital ship grade weapons. Also swarms splitting up makes it easier, since another Imperial naval tactic is to set up siege or assault kill zones by overlapping each others firing arcs, the triangular design of star destroyer classes makes it easy for main or secondary weapon systems to bear across their planes.

As for starfighters? Hell even a simple small transport (D-Wing) can take about 60 kilotons no issue and its not designed for military roles. A single starfighter can't survive even a glancing hit from one of even the weakest turbolasers.

Edit: hilariously this was actually without its SHIELDS. 



> Twas 2 mutalisks doing fairly significant damage to it's armor, though that's rather generously it's "internals".
> I could also bring up the fact that in flashpoint a flock of Mutalisks gave Mengsk's new flagship the white star more trouble than 3 battlecruisers opening fire on it, one of which being the hyperion and all of which spamming Yamato's.
> 
> or just the fact that a swarm of dozens took out a carrier in... well, "Carrier".



You know even low level smuggler ships have operated without any issue within reach of neutron stars gravity fields and radiation and their armor and shields have held. Even the asteroid scene where Vader's Death Squadron fleet of ISDs and his personal SSD were cruising in Hoth's asteroid field for weeks while they were hammered to little effect before the ships started taking damage.



> meanwhile the zerg can just make the next 10 meters they traverse take them to the opposite side of the galaxy in a minute or two.



If they have sufficient warning and time to prepare, maybe.



> That much is possible though unlikely.
> it's been tried before, but that whole hivemind and that whole lack of problem just killing something with a probe/tracking device on it doesn't really help.
> They can also sense cloaking energies or transmitted signals such as the sensor towers used by the terrans, so they'd potentially get found the moment a swarm queen started to pay attention.



I don't think the cloaking technology Terrans or Protoss use in Starcraft is the same as what has been used in Star Wars. Stuff like crystal gravfield trap sensors are damn good at finding cloaked or stealth units, also additionally if anything gives off an energy emission, sensors can be calibrated (and have been) to home in on those emissions with missile or automated fire. Cloaking technology even in the Disney canon has been mentioned in the movies and we see a prototype used in the CWs CGI series as well.

Dealing with cloaked ships/infantry/units is fairly well known in warfare in Star Wars.



> She could Feel Amon.
> Like I said, she still needs to know, and I'm not implying she'd insta port into Coruscant.
> As for how that's universal?
> Because it went to a physical space not even connected to the universe itself.
> ...



I don't understand how a different level of reality equates to a different universe.



> Because one works in seconds vs. another working in hours.
> The Zerg can literally just choose to be elsewhere and they can do it faster.



Really? Because I've been googling this stuff and the most I seem to find is that a) both the Overmind and Kerrigan require some time more often then not to use wormholes, and b) its not quite as instantaneous since even the Starcraft wikia just says their still traveling at FTL speeds but circumventing any need for a behemoth or leviathan to do it for them.  In fact looking back, I remember Kerrigan being damn reliant on her Overlords to transport herself and the Swarms around in Brood Wars.



> ignoring that, while Vipers can't simulate the mass shadow of an entire planet.
> they can grab and pull the ISD itself with their intestines.



They can literally propel the Vipers away with their tractor emitters/projectors on reverse. Also the likelihood of being flenced apart by the blaster and turbolaser fire long enough to engage the jump to lightspeed will always be there as a valid tactic as well.



> it apparently freezes the functions of a normal ship when it's shot onto it, such as a battlecruiser, so it appears to be some sort of energy drain or the like.
> it would also stop them from firing is a problem.



Large scale capital ships have tons of redundancy systems and back up power generators installed to deal with being disabled or losing power from their main generators/reactors in the first place. Also even a massive scaled ion cannon hooked up to the reactor of a derelict dreadnought-class (i.e. same tier as SSDs) warship only knocked out an ISD for a very short time in TESB.



> more I'm wondering why Palpy even needs that to sense her presence pre-cog wise TBH.
> She'd be the strongest being that wasn't him in the SW Galaxy at the time IIRC. Depending on how we scale Yoda to Palps anyways.
> Though I guess he's also doing shit like looking for the Yuuzhan vong and things like that, too.



Sidious is always scanning the future looking for threats, allies, enemies, etc...



> BW kerrigan just basically manipulated the crap out of everyone with a hint of paranoia on keeping herself and her newfound empire safe. She wasn't a random conquest machine and was more interested in talking her way away from a confrontation until she was certain she could crush whatever threat appeared.



Of course, no one ever said Kerrigan was retarded or stupid.



> What do you think the Zerg and protoss are? They were made by space-squids seeking to seed their next cycle of existence that would seed the next universe's life forms, before being corrupted, changed and empowered by one of the evil space squids, most of which is implied to be using psychic abilities.
> not that said plague being artificially created via mystical means means much in the first place for feats, but both the zerg and the protoss were created by a high end psychic under controlled supervision.
> the zerg themselves are all infectious and to gain zerg cells is to allow yourself to be accessed by the hive-mind, so at worst the Rakghouls don't get much from the zerg and at best they deal with Kerrigan mind-raping them into pretty new servants.



The Protoss were engineered to be the Xel Naga's children and successors but they were created scientifically, same with the Zerg for that matter. I remember that much of Starcraft's lore at least. Rakghouls can't really be mind-raped and they spread genetically via connect if they physically touch anything with their claws, saliva, blood, etc...You can't infect them, you can't really control them unless you have the Muur Talisman for that matter.



> or seconds.
> which is what they were dealing with before.
> as in a zergling turned into a solid block of ice within a second.
> it should be noted that they can always just have their organic matter produce heat for them, as energy production is one of their many violations of physics rules, and that said freezing process didn't actually hurt any zerg life-form affected.
> ...



The orbital nightcloak is designed to take energy from anything, the planet, the atmosphere, the life forms, anything. Also we're talking something that goes below absolute zero here so there's that as well. And destroying them? Sure its easy enough, but the Empire can just keep spamming them. Their that cheap and easy to reproduce.




> Force using zerg aren't likely to turn on themselves.
> you don't seem to understand how the zerg strains work.
> it's not as though they just pop out a force using zerg.
> they design a strain with DNA from force users in order to cultivate the midi-chlorians, then they decide just what they want these specific strains to do.
> ...



That's not how the Force works. The dark side literally corrupts everything and everyone, lifeforms and even entire planets or star systems have been utterly manipulated and twisted by the energies of the dark side. Sentient animals become depraved, insane, etc...There was a species of small sized herbivores that turned into gigantic carnivores that exuded darkness from themselves, evolution itself is bent and changed when the dark side gets involved.

That's how Sith wryms, leviathans and other sithspawn came into existence in the first place. I have extreme doubt the Zerg hive-mind is going to overcome this. Come to think of it, if Palpatine who is well known as a master of dark side alchemy decides to, he can create entire armies of Sith leviathans. And it'd be hilarious seeing the Zerg try to nom on those. They'll literally rampage through Zerg ranks ripping the life force from every living thing as it turns into a dried out husk. Hell even as babies, these things can go through incredibly hostile planetary enviroments with absolutely zero issue. A weakened one was dropped into a volcano and emerged from the lava with no problems. They also are incredibly intelligent and require stupid amounts of firepower to bring down, hell they grow smarter the more they feed and prey on their victims and Palpatine as their master can access their experiences and knowledge to better understand the Zerg threat.




> They've been retconned to not have assimilated any of the Xel'naga(just like the Xel'naga were retconned into ridiculous psychic god-things  instead of just being really really smart scientists.) though they helped Amon fight the rest of them apparently.
> As for the Protoss: they were incapable of properly infesting them. The Khala(and void) apparently protects them from being properly taken in.
> They have managed to take in several psychic terrans, which is why the swarm queens and queens all have psychic capabilities of their own, some of which, like Zagara, are higher than the average protoss. this has given them things like independent broods and what are basically better cerebrates with all the general psychic abilities the terrans have.
> The Leviathans are also probably psychic given that bending space to create wormholes is predominantly a psychic power, though it's not been explicitly stated(Though it's really not in doubt. There isn't some random infestable eggplant that bends space in the SC universe). as they are a recent thing, it's probably due to the terran infestation, as well.
> ...



We don't know that. Humans in Star Wars could be very genetically different from Humans in Starcraft but I guess that's a possible hypothesis. But with the aliens? They come in billions of different forms, shapes, sizes, states, etc...Life is much more varied in the Star Wars universe then Starcraft's, so that's a different story.



> It doesn't really operate that differently from psychic power.
> they'd assimilate midi-chlorians into their genetic library and be able to add it to future zerg strains.
> The stats you'd get out of that arent linear or just based on the original host, however, it's also possible to infest existing people and give them buffs.
> Kerrigan went from something like low-mid Town+ Pre-infestation to her psychic power boosted to country-continent afterwards.
> ...



Midicholorians don't generate the Force. So:

a) eating or assimilating something that has Midicholorians isn't going to give the Zerg any Force-sensitivity; it has to have a shit ton of midicholorians and midicholorians only flock to those that have the Force in heavy numbers, not vice-versa
b) thousands of attempts had been made to replicate Force-Users via cloning and those have all field; like Count Dooku's experiment where he transferred much of Sifo-Days blood to General Grievous in attempt to make Grievous a Force-User
c) ignoring the dumb shit with Force Unleashed II where the main clone (protagonist) had to fight hundreds of insane or deformed clones which is contradicted by every other material in EU, the only other time cloning has worked was when another Force-User, the insane Dark Jedi Master, C'boath, is implied to have involved his own usage of the Force to make a clone of Luke Skywalker
d) biological affinity doesn't necessitate to a certainty; every living being has midicholorians, that doesn't mean every living being has access to the Force
e) the Vong lost and were stripped of the usage or knowledge of the Force for their crimes of using biotechnology and manipulating life itself like the Zerg do; given this precedent its likely while anyone who has psychic abilities will still retain them, the Zergs attempts to use the Force or add it to their hive-mind will fail because the Force itself won't allow it; also the Vong war coordinators act a lot like miniature Over-Minds/Overlords and still retained their telepathic powers despite no Force affinity




> if we take PIS full-off it literally just comes down to "can kerrigan wormhole him first or not"
> and if Palpatine's soul has special durability given Void users can blow up cerebrate souls.
> if Palps dies Kerrigan can solo more or less the entire galaxy, and she has the advantage of being able to fully reconstitute herself as long as at least one zerg hatchery exists somewhere in the galaxy.
> if Kerrigan dies and taking PIS off in general I don't actually see why Palps would ever need the empire's help. Old palps might need the assistance but if we actually use DE palps he's basically a force of nature beyond his own empire, and as I've stated before, DE palps just takes her out the moment he can hold her in one place long enough.
> DE palps probably does make this an auto-lose for the zerg regardless, to note, as I've admitted earlier here.



I'm not sure even DE Palpatine is required to deal with Kerrigan directly. Like Kaant mentioned, even before his Reborn form, Palpatine/Sidious is stupidly powerful.  Also, it required every Jedi that has ever died since the formation of the Jedi Order that happened over 28,000 years before Dark Empire to overpower him and drag his soul into the Netherworld of the Force, they couldn't even destroy his soul, they could only just barely permanently capture him and place him in a separate Force realm. So I don't think she can destroy his soul here.

Also a bunch of side material has stated Palpatine knew about using Force Storms/hyperspace wormholes himself even before the events of Dark Empire, so he'd detect that kind of shit if it was tried and counter the attempt. Also Vader is no pushover himself and has recieved a shit ton of upgrades, he's easily multi-continental himself. Jerec is near Vader's general level before RoTJ.



> Regardless if we just argue top-tiers it's probably not going to be as fun a discussion. the only thing the average zerg force can do about him is chuck scourges while wormholing away, though with their population they should probably be able to spread faster than old palpatine can do anything about. at the same time the only thing most imperial forces can do is have a localized gravity well grab their ship and rip it to shreds, or have an instantly mind-raped crew, or icreate a wormhole in the ship.



The thing is, Palpatine and others like Jerec, Vader, Tarkin, all high ranking officials in the Empire will not hesitate to blow up or destroy as many worlds as it takes in terms of sacrificing them to save the larger population of the galaxy. And considering how good Imperial propaganda is despite the amount of insane evil shit they've done with at least most humans and near-human species, once they show off what a threat the Zerg are, they'll just make it as an excuse to further ramp up the Imperial military and war effort.

Remember, the Empire is gun happy. They constantly are coming up with new biological and chemical weapons, even the inferior Galactic Alliance was able to create the Alpha Red virus, within a few months to try and biologically wipe out the entire Vong species and it was going to work until the good guys prevented it from happening. Its very likely they'll happily do shit like Kyrtos Virus, which the Empire made to annihilate non-human aliens.



> Does he actually need Line of sight? I thought that was just for sake of effect.




Sidious is on Coruscant
Dooku is on Christophsis

Opposite ends of the galaxy, similar feat is done by the much weaker Darth Baras in SWTOR in the Sith Warrior story cutscene in Act II where he Force-Chokes a Sith Empire officer to death from Dromund Kaas. Yeah seems like he needs line of sight for that far, though guidebooks state within a star system he wouldn't.


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## Kaaant (May 7, 2016)

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]





AgentAAA said:


> Force using zerg aren't likely to turn on themselves.
> you don't seem to understand how the zerg strains work.
> it's not as though they just pop out a force using zerg.
> they design a strain with DNA from force users in order to cultivate the midi-chlorians, then they decide just what they want these specific strains to do.
> ...



Wow I hate talking about Midi-chlorians. 

Force sensitivity isn't as simple as amassing Midi-chlorians in one place, and it's quantity isn't the only determinant, not to mention it's a sentient life form with its own will, and is extremely resistant to manipulation, so much so that it was only through Plaguies' years of research (probably off the backs of millennia of other people's) and through applying his own force ability that he was able to do it. Even then the force itself reacted and created Anakin Skywalker in response. 

I already mentioned that if you want to go down the rabbit hole of force sensitive Zerg, you'll have to deal with the implications of Zerg being fundamentally changed and ultimately manipulated by being connected to a universal force. 

And I'll just shoot it down, because they have no means of knowing of the force's existence, no idea how to train it, and no idea of how to use it properly and safely. 

They would be so consumed by the mass murder and slaughter they'd turn on themselves. If not on their own back, there's a whole galaxy of spirits that'd do it for them, if not Palpatine - who is himself a dark force nexus.



> if we take PIS full-off it literally just comes down to "can kerrigan wormhole him first or not"



She's gonna have to be able to find out where he is first, and I don't see what's stopping him simply preventing this from happening, sub atomically rearranging the particles in her head to turn her into a drooling vegetable, or just force storming his way back. 



> and if Palpatine's soul has special durability given Void users can blow up cerebrate souls.



If by special durability you mean palpatine to this day requiring every Jedi who ever existed holding him back in the netherworld  to prevent him returning, sure. He's resisted planetary soul drains as well iirc. 




> if Palps dies Kerrigan can solo more or less the entire galaxy,



Death isn't the end, and I doubt she can kill him. 



> and she has the advantage of being able to fully reconstitute herself as long as at least one zerg hatchery exists somewhere in the galaxy.



Palpatine can posses and feed off any individual in the whole galaxy. 



> Old palps might need the assistance but if we actually use DE palps he's basically a force of nature beyond his own empire, and as I've stated before, DE palps just takes her out the moment he can hold her in one place long enough.
> DE palps probably does make this an auto-lose for the zerg regardless, to note, as I've admitted earlier here.



Some of his best feats come from old Palps. As soon as he died in ROTJ he went straight to his cloned body on Byss. His best TP feat was before this, as was his best illusion feats and a plethora of other things. 



> Regardless if we just argue top-tiers it's probably not going to be as fun a discussion. the only thing the average zerg force can do about him is chuck scourges while wormholing away, though with their population they should probably be able to spread faster than old palpatine can do anything about. at the same time the only thing most imperial forces can do is have a localized gravity well grab their ship and rip it to shreds, or have an instantly mind-raped crew, or icreate a wormhole in the ship.



Well you're probably right on debating top tiers not being that fun. Palpatine's body may be withered but that's not stopping him ass raping the Zerg from across the galaxy and in just about any way conceivable (see Vader in a different section of space merely consider putting up resistance to him and being squarely put in his place.)



> Does he actually need Line of sight? I thought that was just for sake of effect.



Weaker characters haven't.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (May 7, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)] (see Vader in a different section of space merely consider putting up resistance to him and being squarely put in his place.)



What was this? I remember something vaguely like this but not the details.


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## AgentAAA (May 8, 2016)

Fang said:


> Show me it please.


You can see it in the post.
the entire thing is being bathed in plasma fire and one of the blasts manages to go from the top of the planet all the way through the other side.
look up near the top and a little to the left of the image.



> The books I remember reading stated the Confederacy repeatedly failed to actually stop him or the Sons from recruiting and attempts at censorship was blown up when they tried to use propaganda against Mengsk and other terrorists.


This much is true.
They did manage to do a bit of recruiting in isolated areas.
they never really managed to recruit anything significant.
It's not until they worked with alpha squadron and the Antigan rebels, IIRC, that they had more than a battlecruiser and potentially a few carriers to their name.



> So its sort of similar to durasteel then.


I'd go as far as to call it intellectual theft if not for the fact "steel but better" isn't that original in the first place.
yeah, Neosteel is basically the terran equivalent.



> Light speed+ maneuvers were observed in the Vong War, so they can certainly go past c.


Would fighters of that era scale to older fighters?
though I'd love to see examples - not because I doubt you, but because that seems like good info to have for SW.



> The Death Star not even at full speed was capable of circumventing the gas giant, Yavin, in less than 5 minutes. Its the slowest military grade vessel in the Empire.


Not super big by SC standards. going across a solar system is a matter of less than an hour without hyperdrive.




> Mark-I Imperial-Class Star Destroyers:
> 
> - 2 quad-cannon heavy turbolaser turrets
> - 6 dual-cannon heavy turbolaser turrets
> ...



I'm not seeing where they've heavily outgunned here, I'll by honest.
this is more but not by any major factor.

They aren't tanking hits from any turret or battery aimed for capital ship grade weapons. Also swarms splitting up makes it easier, since another Imperial naval tactic is to set up siege or assault kill zones by overlapping each others firing arcs, the triangular design of star destroyer classes makes it easy for main or secondary weapon systems to bear across their planes.


> As for starfighters? Hell even a simple small transport (D-Wing) can take about 60 kilotons no issue and its not designed for military roles. A single starfighter can't survive even a glancing hit from one of even the weakest turbolasers.


60 kilotons is pretty much nothing for SC ship to ship standards.
Mutalisks flat out don't have dura and more or less rely on being far smaller and more agile than any normal fighter plane(basically you're shooting at something slightly larger than a person) and scourge are living bombs made of explodium, but Devourers, corruptors, guardians, and brood lords(though the latter's a non-factor in space combat) scale to Scouts which puts them close to the same range of dura as the mutalisks output... which is teratons minimum.
it's notable mutalisks fall under the same issue most zerg do, which is that they appear on most sensor readings... inconsistently. Heat, motion, and life form scanners have general trouble actually finding zerg readings.




> You know even low level smuggler ships have operated without any issue within reach of neutron stars gravity fields and radiation and their armor and shields have held. Even the asteroid scene where Vader's Death Squadron fleet of ISDs and his personal SSD were cruising in Hoth's asteroid field for weeks while they were hammered to little effect before the ships started taking damage.


Not really that big a deal to the zerg. though their durability feats are similar, but it's not that big an issue regardless for them given radiation is apparently beneficial to the creatures.



> If they have sufficient warning and time to prepare, maybe.


psychic sensors do help. Though I'm not sure if Palpatine and others can cloak from a distance.



> I don't think the cloaking technology Terrans or Protoss use in Starcraft is the same as what has been used in Star Wars. Stuff like crystal gravfield trap sensors are damn good at finding cloaked or stealth units, also additionally if anything gives off an energy emission, sensors can be calibrated (and have been) to home in on those emissions with missile or automated fire. Cloaking technology even in the Disney canon has been mentioned in the movies and we see a prototype used in the CWs CGI series as well.


It really depends.
Cloaking tech for terran ghosts and protoss in general are all psychically powered and also fuck with basic perception. Even high-end psionic characters have issues finding people with good cloaking.
that said, the zerg don't show up consistently on emission sensors, either.
as for the cloaking technology in SC: it ranges from a bunch of different things. The arbiters manipulate space-time to make their allies invisible, the Terran Wraiths use traditional invisibility with some extra basic ability to fool really common sensors, but that fail to any dedicated sensor suite, ghosts do similar but also hide their psychic presence to varying degrees of effectiveness, and the DT's use void space magic. it's been described as bending light and becoming one with the void and shit, but nothing that's more scientific and less like a guru's wisdom.
the latter can even hide from psychic sensors and etc., though, with particularly prominent individuals like zeratul being able to just completely no-sell detection in places like Kerrigan's leviathan and the Hyperion without anyone noticing a damn thing.



> Dealing with cloaked ships/infantry/units is fairly well known in warfare in Star Wars.





> I don't understand how a different level of reality equates to a different universe.


Not that I'm entirely sure how something this esoteric works, but... it doesn't appear to be a different level of reality. It's like any other bit of space and follows the same general laws shown in the normal universe. I don't believe it'd be treated as a different reality - just a place outside one's home universe.
though frankly my understanding of extra-universal things is relatively low, so I'm not sure how you would treat that.
It should be noted that "the void" that holds Amon seems to be different from "the void" the dark templar seem to use. That void appears to literally be them using the emptiness of space itself. hence why they still have to plot their FTL while considering things like the gravitational pull of stars and etc.



> Really? Because I've been googling this stuff and the most I seem to find is that a) both the Overmind and Kerrigan require some time more often then not to use wormholes, and b) its not quite as instantaneous since even the Starcraft wikia just says their still traveling at FTL speeds but circumventing any need for a behemoth or leviathan to do it for them.  In fact looking back, I remember Kerrigan being damn reliant on her Overlords to transport herself and the Swarms around in Brood Wars.


Kerrigan really isn't reliant on overlords except to ferry things around in a battlefield situation. 
Neither overlords nor behemoths have their own form of organic ability to achieve MFTL speeds(in the latter's case it might be possible, but certainly not in the formers).
The Overmind and Kerrigan do need to concentrate. it generally seems to take about 10 seconds or so to properly stabilize.
Starcraft Wikia does state that and as of recent canon it might be true but we've never been given any showings of the zerg taking time to get somewhere. We have an interview stating it should have taken them longer to reach Zerus than they implied but going off how wormholes actually work it doesn't make much sense and isn't supported either way by primary canon.
If we wanna argue that it might need it's own topic but it's a little hard to tell either way with all the retcons done so far.




> They can literally propel the Vipers away with their tractor emitters/projectors on reverse. Also the likelihood of being flenced apart by the blaster and turbolaser fire long enough to engage the jump to lightspeed will always be there as a valid tactic as well.


takes them half a second.
Also they just need to pull them into a leviathan or swarm of scourge. the former ain't moving for that and the latter will blow a hole in an ISD no problem.



> Large scale capital ships have tons of redundancy systems and back up power generators installed to deal with being disabled or losing power from their main generators/reactors in the first place. Also even a massive scaled ion cannon hooked up to the reactor of a derelict dreadnought-class (i.e. same tier as SSDs) warship only knocked out an ISD for a very short time in TESB.


the Leviathan's bio-stasis does lack feats so I can't really argue against that, so fair enough.



> Sidious is always scanning the future looking for threats, allies, enemies, etc...


So yeah, Kerrigan's getting found pretty quickly regardles of what she does, then.



> Of course, no one ever said Kerrigan was retarded or stupid.


my point was I'm guessing this isn't totally IC for that reason.
Neither Palps nor Kerri'd bother wasting the forces actually trying to fight directly at that point.



> The Protoss were engineered to be the Xel Naga's children and successors but they were created scientifically, same with the Zerg for that matter. I remember that much of Starcraft's lore at least. Rakghouls can't really be mind-raped and they spread genetically via connect if they physically touch anything with their claws, saliva, blood, etc...You can't infect them, you can't really control them unless you have the Muur Talisman for that matter.


They'd literally have to fight for every cell they infect, assuming the zerg virus didn't corrupt them as they tried to spread.
Why can't Rakghouls be mind-raped? Feats?




> The orbital nightcloak is designed to take energy from anything, the planet, the atmosphere, the life forms, anything. Also we're talking something that goes below absolute zero here so there's that as well. And destroying them? Sure its easy enough, but the Empire can just keep spamming them. Their that cheap and easy to reproduce.


>implying the zerg would have issues just sending a mutalisk on clean-up duty every so often.

Also, I'm a little confused here. I thought it just blocked off light from reaching the planet.
even ignoring that, what are the nightcloak's method of energy leeching?
You seemed to be implying it'd just render it uninhabitable, and I can't pull up anything of the zerg dealing with more than absolute zero, though in terms of pure durability the ultralisks should have no problem tanking at the very least.


> That's not how the Force works. The dark side literally corrupts everything and everyone, lifeforms and even entire planets or star systems have been utterly manipulated and twisted by the energies of the dark side. Sentient animals become depraved, insane, etc...There was a species of small sized herbivores that turned into gigantic carnivores that exuded darkness from themselves, evolution itself is bent and changed when the dark side gets involved.


That's fine.
The zerg would
A: Not be against said corruption.
B: still have Kerrigan holding the reins regardless.
Nor does the Dark side have feats of overwhelming anything quite so completely or being against the idea of order in the first place.
The imperials higher-ups generally did exude darkness.
this didn't stop them from keeping order or staying consistent to their goals.
Vader got a little insane but he was still a competent military commander determined to secure his empire.



> That's how Sith wryms, leviathans and other sithspawn came into existence in the first place. I have extreme doubt the Zerg hive-mind is going to overcome this. Come to think of it, if Palpatine who is well known as a master of dark side alchemy decides to, he can create entire armies of Sith leviathans. And it'd be hilarious seeing the Zerg try to nom on those. They'll literally rampage through Zerg ranks ripping the life force from every living thing as it turns into a dried out husk. Hell even as babies, these things can go through incredibly hostile planetary enviroments with absolutely zero issue. A weakened one was dropped into a volcano and emerged from the lava with no problems. They also are incredibly intelligent and require stupid amounts of firepower to bring down, hell they grow smarter the more they feed and prey on their victims and Palpatine as their master can access their experiences and knowledge to better understand the Zerg threat.


Lava's barely a problem for stronger zerg organisms and flying a scourge into them should not be a problem.
The zerg can literally steal knowledge from brains, use neural parasites to control actual sentient beings, etc.
You haven't really given a reason the zerg'd have problems with a little psychic mindfuckery or why it'd bother them.
Zerg don't have some form of morals or ethics and already basically follow Darkside tenets. they're driven by emotion, work for power more than anything, and have basically no change to their power structure even if you add it.
Particularly given that they're not just going to create every zerg as force sensitive. that'd be ridiculous.



> We don't know that. Humans in Star Wars could be very genetically different from Humans in Starcraft but I guess that's a possible hypothesis. But with the aliens? They come in billions of different forms, shapes, sizes, states, etc...Life is much more varied in the Star Wars universe then Starcraft's, so that's a different story.


nor does it give automatic immunity.
everything in star wars tends to follow a similar idea to starcraft: which is, using DNA.
The zerg can use available DNA strains they've acquired and mix them in new ways.
more varied DNA shouldn't actually change how the virus works on the most basic levels.
hell, things like the brontolith actually had an incredible resistance to infection due to the way their planet worked, and said resistance just got assimilated and added to the swarm.



> Midicholorians don't generate the Force. So:
> 
> a) eating or assimilating something that has Midicholorians isn't going to give the Zerg any Force-sensitivity; it has to have a shit ton of midicholorians and midicholorians only flock to those that have the Force in heavy numbers, not vice-versa
> b) thousands of attempts had been made to replicate Force-Users via cloning and those have all field; like Count Dooku's experiment where he transferred much of Sifo-Days blood to General Grievous in attempt to make Grievous a Force-User
> ...


A and B are fair enough if that is the case, though I'd ask where C dates. This might be one of those things where canon changed to better reflect what they wanted. 

as for E, I thought that was the result of the sentient planets, not the force itself. again, fair enough if the force is capable of just going "no", though it again seems weird the force put that as the actual line, but didn't just strip Palps and Plagueis when they attacked.
Honestly, the final book where they went through all that got a little hard to get through, so I might just not have been paying attention for the last half.

to be honest it super doesn't matter regardless since outside of buffing existing people they infest the organisms they could create from force users are more or less conjecture. It'd be hard to apply a value on them and they couldn't get higher than QoB at the moment due to Abathur's current limitations.
The force stripping them might actually work in their favor if I recall how the vong worked though. though I don't see how vong got stripped but the Rakghoul plague was totally fine.

it should also be noted you'd really want the zerg to stay far, far away from the vong in this matchup, so now I'm wondering about the time period.





> I'm not sure even DE Palpatine is required to deal with Kerrigan directly. Like Kaant mentioned, even before his Reborn form, Palpatine/Sidious is stupidly powerful.  Also, it required every Jedi that has ever died since the formation of the Jedi Order that happened over 28,000 years before Dark Empire to overpower him and drag his soul into the Netherworld of the Force, they couldn't even destroy his soul, they could only just barely permanently capture him and place him in a separate Force realm. So I don't think she can destroy his soul here.


Can Jedi/Sith destroy souls in general? It was my understanding that was the main problem.
fair enough if so though it seems a little contradictory to his actual power level. Given Mace Windu(who was incredibly strong but not to my knowledge the only one on his actual level) Was his equal back in RotS, shouldn't Mace windu and a few people of the same tier be able to do a majority of the work? Or was the power jump between Revenge and Jedi just that big?
Palpatine by himself should be able to kill Kerrigan if he really tries, but he wouldn't be able to do it while still sitting on his throne like DE would, I'd imagine.



> Also a bunch of side material has stated Palpatine knew about using Force Storms/hyperspace wormholes himself even before the events of Dark Empire, so he'd detect that kind of shit if it was tried and counter the attempt. Also Vader is no pushover himself and has recieved a shit ton of upgrades, he's easily multi-continental himself. Jerec is near Vader's general level before RoTJ.


I don't think Vader can deal with Kerrigan. better power set on her side and off of her planetary storm she made when she woke up alone Kerrigan's could be sitting anywhere between triple-digit Petatons to single digit Exatons casually, which should be enough to deal with Vader or Jerec if they personally come to blows with Primal.
I'm not sure if Palps knowing about Hyperspace wormholes would actually give him a counter technique.
On the other hand, Vader and Jerec wouldn't go down to anything less than either direct leviathan fire or kerrigan, so that's still a fairly good advantage.



> The thing is, Palpatine and others like Jerec, Vader, Tarkin, all high ranking officials in the Empire will not hesitate to blow up or destroy as many worlds as it takes in terms of sacrificing them to save the larger population of the galaxy. And considering how good Imperial propaganda is despite the amount of insane evil shit they've done with at least most humans and near-human species, once they show off what a threat the Zerg are, they'll just make it as an excuse to further ramp up the Imperial military and war effort.
> 
> Remember, the Empire is gun happy. They constantly are coming up with new biological and chemical weapons, even the inferior Galactic Alliance was able to create the Alpha Red virus, within a few months to try and biologically wipe out the entire Vong species and it was going to work until the good guys prevented it from happening. Its very likely they'll happily do shit like Kyrtos Virus, which the Empire made to annihilate non-human aliens.


Viruses and the like generally do not work on the zerg. ever. It's been tried. even if you find a vulnerability, their adaptation is literally within minutes. it's one of the reasons the zerg virus is more or less impossible to find a cure for - the basic structure is different every few days it changes so quickly. Things like a void ray attacking a zerg base and a hatchery adapting armor capable of stopping it's main gun in the middle of being blasted.
The zerg actually willingly get infected by viruses - biological or otherwise - in order to mutate and grow all the time. The Noxious Ultralisk strain was created by scientists experimenting on ways to injure the zerg. they used it to make Ultralisks that doubled as Chemical weapons. Similarly, they actually choose to be in radiation high areas(enough to almost instantly kill an unarmored man in certain areas, in char's case) on purpose because it's not harmful and gives them excuses to mutate further.

As for Jerec, Varder, and Tarkin being willing to blow up or destroy worlds - while that's good, it really sucks if the zerg pop into Kuat or similar. they still do need their industry, and the fact the zerg can actually rip broods from off planet with wormholes and seem to be able to pop them right back on a different planet afterwards means their raids can be smaller planetary invasions.
it's not like Kerrigan's going to get tired making wormholes. that's more or less her most casual use of power throughout the day.

sometimes they'll even feint certain weaknesses - there's an entire story about Kerrigan duping some scientist women into thinking she'd found a way to control hydralisks only to reveal it was all specifically grown to screw with them and that she just had no clue how zerg biology worked.
doing similar to bait out placebo viruses would be just another part of their modus operandi.

Also, I thought the GA was superior in terms of actual tech, just not manpower, resources, etc.
even so, depending on how you scale Leviathans, they're either between an SD and an SSD in pure power, or they're just below an SSD. 




> Sidious is on Coruscant
> Dooku is on Christophsis
> 
> Opposite ends of the galaxy, similar feat is done by the much weaker Darth Baras in SWTOR in the Sith Warrior story cutscene in Act II where he Force-Chokes a Sith Empire officer to death from Dromund Kaas. Yeah seems like he needs line of sight for that far, though guidebooks state within a star system he wouldn't.


yeah. I didn't doubt the feat and recalled it, just didn't know why looking at someone over a video feed would actually cause one's powers to be amplified over that range.
it's no sillier than a 5 meter long zerg that can't weigh over 1 ton grabbing a 300,000 ton battlecruiser and pulling it like a fly instead of just splattering itself on the windshield really fast, I guess.



> She's gonna have to be able to find out where he is first, and I don't see what's stopping him simply preventing this from happening, sub atomically rearranging the particles in her head to turn her into a drooling vegetable, or just force storming his way back.


to the first thing: because he doesn't have an anti-wormhole technique
to the second thing: because psychics in SC can also do this and can block it.
to the third thing: don't think he has a way to force storm out of the void.



> If by special durability you mean palpatine to this day requiring every Jedi who ever existed holding him back in the netherworld to prevent him returning, sure. He's resisted planetary soul drains as well iirc.


Can he still do that in spirit form? It was my understanding he literally needed a body to access his full powerset. Though I guess he could have just wanted one because it's nice to be corporeal.



> Palpatine can posses and feed off any individual in the whole galaxy.


so why didn't he do that to Luke or Leia?
PIS is a legitimate answer but I'd at least like to see some evidence of that one.



> Some of his best feats come from old Palps. As soon as he died in ROTJ he went straight to his cloned body on Byss. His best TP feat was before this, as was his best illusion feats and a plethora of other things.


some of those feats wouldn't really break kerri by themselves.
The multi planet force storms spammed constantly on the other hand aren't something the zerg have a single shot against.


----------



## Fang (May 8, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> You can see it in the post.
> the entire thing is being bathed in plasma fire and one of the blasts manages to go from the top of the planet all the way through the other side.
> look up near the top and a little to the left of the image.



Its a very small image, do you have a more higher resolution one? Because that can make the world of difference.




> This much is true.
> They did manage to do a bit of recruiting in isolated areas.
> they never really managed to recruit anything significant.
> It's not until they worked with alpha squadron and the Antigan rebels, IIRC, that they had more than a battlecruiser and potentially a few carriers to their name.



Like I said, half of it was the Confederacy being unable to make the simple decisions that would've ended Mengsk's support from his allies.



> I'd go as far as to call it intellectual theft if not for the fact "steel but better" isn't that original in the first place.
> yeah, Neosteel is basically the terran equivalent.



I see.



> Would fighters of that era scale to older fighters?
> though I'd love to see examples - not because I doubt you, but because that seems like good info to have for SW.



They were just newer updated versions of the same model X-Wings, E-Wings, K-Wings, Tie-Fighters, Tie-Interceptors, Tie-Defenders, Chiss Clawcraft, Vong starfighters, etc...They were keeping pace with turbolasers and blaster fire being knocked around via the Belsavis battle.



> Not super big by SC standards. going across a solar system is a matter of less than an hour without hyperdrive.



Like I said. This was just the Death Star, not even going at full speed, around an elliptical path with its sublight engines around a massive gas giant.



> I'm not seeing where they've heavily outgunned here, I'll by honest.
> this is more but not by any major factor.



Each of those turrets on the major cannons can act in a sense as its own separate unit.



> 60 kilotons is pretty much nothing for SC ship to ship standards.



That feat was for an unarmed, UNSHIELDED, non-military vessel that was getting pounded by comets and asteroids. at relatively fast speeds in space. This is as low as you get for a starship.



> Mutalisks flat out don't have dura and more or less rely on being far smaller and more agile than any normal fighter plane(basically you're shooting at something slightly larger than a person) and scourge are living bombs made of explodium, but Devourers, corruptors, guardians, and brood lords(though the latter's a non-factor in space combat) scale to Scouts which puts them close to the same range of dura as the mutalisks output... which is teratons minimum.
> it's notable mutalisks fall under the same issue most zerg do, which is that they appear on most sensor readings... inconsistently. Heat, motion, and life form scanners have general trouble actually finding zerg readings.



In space, I doubt Zerg aerial units would have any edge in terms of manuvreability or agility on Imperial starfighters. In the atmosphere? Its probably leans in their court though.



> Not really that big a deal to the zerg. though their durability feats are similar, but it's not that big an issue regardless for them given radiation is apparently beneficial to the creatures.



Zerg can chill within the influence of neutron and positron stars without any protection? That I find doubtful.



> psychic sensors do help. Though I'm not sure if Palpatine and others can cloak from a distance.



Force-Users certainly can and Palpatine would have no issue with that. Not like he would bother though, he'd just fry everything and call it a day.



> It really depends.
> Cloaking tech for terran ghosts and protoss in general are all psychically powered and also fuck with basic perception. Even high-end psionic characters have issues finding people with good cloaking.
> that said, the zerg don't show up consistently on emission sensors, either.
> as for the cloaking technology in SC: it ranges from a bunch of different things. The arbiters manipulate space-time to make their allies invisible, the Terran Wraiths use traditional invisibility with some extra basic ability to fool really common sensors, but that fail to any dedicated sensor suite, ghosts do similar but also hide their psychic presence to varying degrees of effectiveness, and the DT's use void space magic. it's been described as bending light and becoming one with the void and shit, but nothing that's more scientific and less like a guru's wisdom.
> the latter can even hide from psychic sensors and etc., though, with particularly prominent individuals like zeratul being able to just completely no-sell detection in places like Kerrigan's leviathan and the Hyperion without anyone noticing a damn thing.



Like I said in my earlier post, at least when it comes to the Zerg and Terrans, the Empire would have no issue after awhile of learning how to detect and find cloaked or invisible units. That style of warfare is known in the galaxy and cloaked warships or military units aren't a new thing by any means. Movement, energy, electrical, heat, mass,etc...if one of those is there, they will get detected at some point.




> Not that I'm entirely sure how something this esoteric works, but... it doesn't appear to be a different level of reality. It's like any other bit of space and follows the same general laws shown in the normal universe. I don't believe it'd be treated as a different reality - just a place outside one's home universe.
> though frankly my understanding of extra-universal things is relatively low, so I'm not sure how you would treat that.
> It should be noted that "the void" that holds Amon seems to be different from "the void" the dark templar seem to use. That void appears to literally be them using the emptiness of space itself. hence why they still have to plot their FTL while considering things like the gravitational pull of stars and etc.



Sounds like outside of Amon that their still inhabiting the same "physical" universe like how hyperspace operates separating tachyonic from baryonic states.



> Kerrigan really isn't reliant on overlords except to ferry things around in a battlefield situation.
> Neither overlords nor behemoths have their own form of organic ability to achieve MFTL speeds(in the latter's case it might be possible, but certainly not in the formers).
> The Overmind and Kerrigan do need to concentrate. it generally seems to take about 10 seconds or so to properly stabilize.
> Starcraft Wikia does state that and as of recent canon it might be true but we've never been given any showings of the zerg taking time to get somewhere. We have an interview stating it should have taken them longer to reach Zerus than they implied but going off how wormholes actually work it doesn't make much sense and isn't supported either way by primary canon.
> If we wanna argue that it might need it's own topic but it's a little hard to tell either way with all the retcons done so far.



Just sounds like there's an inconsistency with how their interstellar travel is supposed to work.



> takes them half a second.
> Also they just need to pull them into a leviathan or swarm of scourge. the former ain't moving for that and the latter will blow a hole in an ISD no problem.



Half a second is plenty of time to make either a pre-calculated jump or a blind one into hyperspace. Also again, there's literally hundreds of anti-starfighter and dozens upon dozens of heavy cannons and turrets that will blow shit away as well as already prior mentioned tractor beam projectors/emitters that can push shit away.. And if I remember right, Vong gretchins work similarly but still required the Vong warships to pound down a warship's shields before they applied them given how the neutronium material used in heavy warship armor is so durable.



> the Leviathan's bio-stasis does lack feats so I can't really argue against that, so fair enough.



Ah.



> So yeah, Kerrigan's getting found pretty quickly regardles of what she does, then.



Possibly.



> my point was I'm guessing this isn't totally IC for that reason.
> Neither Palps nor Kerri'd bother wasting the forces actually trying to fight directly at that point.



Palpatine certainly would for the hell of it. His most valuable forces? Probably not. The cannon fodder? Certainly just to see how the Zerg operate and react. I mean he did this to even one of his own Grand Admirals by sending the dude deliberately into Hapan space with a weak "fleet" consisting of nothing more then an outdated cruiser and half a dozen or so gunships so he'd get mauled by their defense forces.




> They'd literally have to fight for every cell they infect, assuming the zerg virus didn't corrupt them as they tried to spread.
> Why can't Rakghouls be mind-raped? Feats?



We've had history of hive viruses going plague level that ended up wiping out entire planetary populations. As for just a mention of a handful of bio-weapons the Empire has made:

- Aorth-6 which literally liquidates the internals of whoever inhales or ingests it and melts the victim internally. Unless Zerg species don't breathe organically, their susceptible to it. Even the Emperor was infected wtih this bio-weapon but his power kept him alive and staved off the effects until he was given a vaccine to cure himself, so this is a huge deal.

- Krytos virus which will can anything non-human; literally more then two dozen named species and hundreds more died by the hundreds of millions to it within a few hours of its releasing. Many of the species were widely different genetically, more so then what constitutes all the various Zerg species. The way it works is aggressively invading and destroying "cell by cell" that causes necrosis and removes all organic matter from the victim's body. The virus itself will also not stop reproducing itself ever in the victim until the host is thoroughly destroyed. It was designed for cross-species transmission (body fluids, contact,  water/liquids, gas, etc...) and proved that, pretty sure either way its going to be a major danger to the Zerg.

- Blue Shadow virus that was apparently such a big deal in the past that it affected everything and everyone and wiped out a large number of the galaxy's population generations before the main events of the OT/PT eras; all we know is it rapidly infects and kills everyone but the updated and genetically improved version could move or transmit itself via aerial means then originally just through water.

- Trihexalon which was a bio-weaponed of mass destruction used to cause "complete biomass conversion" on a planetary scale. Even a single vial the size of a human palm is apparently lethal enough to kill over 300 Wookiees with no problem. Trade Federation and Confederacy used this before and during the Clone Wars and the Empire has stocks of it as well since the Empire took all of the Confederacy's assets after the end of the Clone Wars.

- Brainworm Rot plague that can infect humanoids and non-humanoids and attacks the brain and central nervous system until the victim dies shortly after infection.

- Blackwing virus like we talked about earlier.

- Nano Destroyer virus that destroys the host body one cell at a time; this particular virus can be genetically altered to specifically target specific individuals or species based off using said being's genetic make up. Required an extremely powerful Force-Healer to save Mon Mothma when she was infected with it; no other cure worked even after her doctors and other researchers used every scrap of information the Empire had on it, everything else failed. The Empire wasn't able to ever produce a cure for it. In fact the only reason they knew there was something wrong with her was because of her symptoms, the virus itself is undetectable.

As for Rakghouls, like I said, they were created with dark side alchemy through the Force. They are quite literally mindless and only exist to kill and feed. Initially certain aliens and any Force-User would be immune to the effects of the Muur Talisman transforming its victims into Rakghouls but the Rakghouls themselves can spread the infection and transformation process via physical contact.



> >implying the zerg would have issues just sending a mutalisk on clean-up duty every so often.



They're going to be doing that with every planet then.



> Also, I'm a little confused here. I thought it just blocked off light from reaching the planet.
> even ignoring that, what are the nightcloak's method of energy leeching?
> You seemed to be implying it'd just render it uninhabitable, and I can't pull up anything of the zerg dealing with more than absolute zero, though in terms of pure durability the ultralisks should have no problem tanking at the very least.



Hundreds of satellites are placed in orbit over a targeted planet, each of them have an umbrella like extension that sends out a discharge system of energy that captures and prevents any heat or light from reaching the surface. Any and all forms of light or energy are intercepted, said energy is used to recycle and power the nightcloak satellites perpetually. Very rapidly said planet would be trapped in eternal darkness and caused rapid freezing of the planet which creates a new ice age.



> That's fine.
> The zerg would
> A: Not be against said corruption.
> B: still have Kerrigan holding the reins regardless.
> ...



Corruption will likely turn the various Zerg species possibly against each other. Who knows what effect it could have on Kerrigan or the Queens. As for feats, like I've said we've seen the dark side corrupt entire planets and species, maybe not species as quite as unique as the Zerg, but they're not walking off the effects or experience of it.

>Imperial higher-ups generally did exude darkness.
Not the same kind of darkness here.
>Vader got a little insane
Also not the same thing I'm talking about it.



> Lava's barely a problem for stronger zerg organisms and flying a scourge into them should not be a problem.
> The zerg can literally steal knowledge from brains, use neural parasites to control actual sentient beings, etc.
> You haven't really given a reason the zerg'd have problems with a little psychic mindfuckery or why it'd bother them.
> Zerg don't have some form of morals or ethics and already basically follow Darkside tenets. they're driven by emotion, work for power more than anything, and have basically no change to their power structure even if you add it.
> Particularly given that they're not just going to create every zerg as force sensitive. that'd be ridiculous.



This isn't mind-fuckery. This is literally life-force essenice drain, Sith leviathans have shown they will and have adapted to different enviroments, they simply will awake from hibernation, and start draining and nomming on everything around them. Also I have no idea why your bringing up ethics or morals, animals don't have those and they've been corrupted by the dark side, it makes no difference to the Force honestly.



> nor does it give automatic immunity.



It certainly helps though.



> everything in star wars tends to follow a similar idea to starcraft: which is, using DNA.
> The zerg can use available DNA strains they've acquired and mix them in new ways.
> more varied DNA shouldn't actually change how the virus works on the most basic levels.
> hell, things like the brontolith actually had an incredible resistance to infection due to the way their planet worked, and said resistance just got assimilated and added to the swarm.



Having a resistance to infection isn't remotely the same medically or scientifically speaking to having an incredible resistance to viruses, pathological bacteria, and what not. Point was genetically speaking, life is more varied, widespread, and intermixed in Star Wars due to how interconnected the millions of different sentient species interact; foods, half-breed hybrids, influences of outbreaks of plagues and viruses, it actually does make a large difference.

Also in NJO, we ultimately learn that one of the reasons the Vong couldn't originally be detected in the Force was by being from a different galaxy, the Force treats them differently and why different galaxies have different signatures or "frequencies" within it.



> A and B are fair enough if that is the case, though I'd ask where C dates. This might be one of those things where canon changed to better reflect what they wanted.



Didn't really change any canon. It was like I said just a plot device excuse with The Force Unleashed II since the canon route was Starkiller dies self-sacrificing himself to save Juno and the others from the Emperor in the original game. They needed an excuse to reuse his character and since they couldn't hand wave it with bullshit claiming he survived even though the Emperor straight up says he's dead, Blackman decided to use the age old "let's make a clone of him and make that one the new main character", which is what they did.

This contradicts pretty much every other material on the topic in EU of cloning Force-Users.



> as for E, I thought that was the result of the sentient planets, not the force itself. again, fair enough if the force is capable of just going "no", though it again seems weird the force put that as the actual line, but didn't just strip Palps and Plagueis when they attacked.
> Honestly, the final book where they went through all that got a little hard to get through, so I might just not have been paying attention for the last half.



Zenoma Sekot's parent, the Vong's original home world, didn't strip them of the Force. It banished the Vong species from it and they were forced to wander their home galaxy after they ended up having a massive civil war that wiped out most other beings and life forms in said home galaxy. Zenoma Sekot can certainly use the Force though.

As for Plagueis and Sidious, they tried to create a new being entirely through the Force using a combination of science, dark side rituals, and Sith alchemy but the effort was only partially successful. Due to the inherent nature of them being dark siders, the Force countered that as well as the attempt to control it itself to create Anakin Skywalker.  Anakin Skywaker was created in reaction to this indirectly on the part of both the Sith and the Force but was designed to ultimately destroy the Sith, which he did, so there's that.



> to be honest it super doesn't matter regardless since outside of buffing existing people they infest the organisms they could create from force users are more or less conjecture. It'd be hard to apply a value on them and they couldn't get higher than QoB at the moment due to Abathur's current limitations.



Not sure what you mean by any of this to be honest.



> The force stripping them might actually work in their favor if I recall how the vong worked though. though I don't see how vong got stripped but the Rakghoul plague was totally fine.



The Vong were stripped of the Force because they perverted life itself and their religion and culture is centered around sadism and sadomasochistic beliefs of racial supremacy and mainly because...well you know they wiped out their entire home galaxy and made it so ravaged by war that it was no longer inhabitable.

The Rakghouls are literally just brainless, mindless, Sithspawn created via Sith magic.



> it should also be noted you'd really want the zerg to stay far, far away from the vong in this matchup, so now I'm wondering about the time period.



Average Vong Warrior is on par with the average trained Jedi or Dark Jedi. Their own WMDs are probably even more effective against the Zerg then regular people and considering the size of their military and population that they were able to nearly overrun the entire galaxy, I don't think they'd go down.



> Can Jedi/Sith destroy souls in general?



Yes.

Just not your regular run-of-the-mill average ones. Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior in SWTOR go fucking around in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas in SWTOR and got wrecked by various ancient Sith spirits and Force ghosts who were stupidly powerful even in their weakened states having been just reawakened. Even though the Warrior and Inquisitor are incredibly powerful, they got ragdolled since they didn't have the power or knowledge to fight Force ghosts yet. The Inquisitor's entire arc is learning the Force-Walk in Act II because when they get attacked by Kallig, Ergast, and Andru, they cast Force Lightning wasn't doesn't do jack shit.

I





> t was my understanding that was the main problem.



For the average Jedi or Sith, it is.



> fair enough if so though it seems a little contradictory to his actual power level. Given Mace Windu(who was incredibly strong but not to my knowledge the only one on his actual level) Was his equal back in RotS, shouldn't Mace windu and a few people of the same tier be able to do a majority of the work? Or was the power jump between Revenge and Jedi just that big?
> Palpatine by himself should be able to kill Kerrigan if he really tries, but he wouldn't be able to do it while still sitting on his throne like DE would, I'd imagine.



Its not contradictory. Palpatine has the virtue of being alive to he's able to continually increase his power and mastery of the dark side by studying and learning more. Windu can't progress his strength because he's dead after the duel on Coruscant and Yoda goes into hiding on Dagaboh after Order #66 is put into effect. As for soul fuckery, yes I imagine Yoda, Windu, and so on at their level could handle it.

And yes it was. We know that Palpatine is hugely more powerful between RoTS to RoTJ to confirm he's long overshadowed Plagueis at this point.



> I don't think Vader can deal with Kerrigan. better power set on her side and off of her planetary storm she made when she woke up alone Kerrigan's could be sitting anywhere between triple-digit Petatons to single digit Exatons casually, which should be enough to deal with Vader or Jerec if they personally come to blows with Primal.
> I'm not sure if Palps knowing about Hyperspace wormholes would actually give him a counter technique.
> On the other hand, Vader and Jerec wouldn't go down to anything less than either direct leviathan fire or kerrigan, so that's still a fairly good advantage.



Like I said: Vader got massively upgraded since the last year or so, he's multi-continental himself. Even a  much weaker version (pre-RoTS for that matter) was able to handle country to continental level firepower and Force drain fuckery from the Harvester during the Clone Wars. In fact by RoTJ Vader is very match at his strongest and peak and even surpassed his best as Anakin in RoTS curbstomping Dooku.

In fact without CIS/PIS bllshit, Vader has a lot more powers to use like his own version of Force drain. And Jerec again is described as being just "not QUITE" as powerful as him.




> Viruses and the like generally do not work on the zerg. ever. It's been tried. even if you find a vulnerability, their adaptation is literally within minutes. it's one of the reasons the zerg virus is more or less impossible to find a cure for - the basic structure is different every few days it changes so quickly. Things like a void ray attacking a zerg base and a hatchery adapting armor capable of stopping it's main gun in the middle of being blasted.
> 
> 
> The zerg actually willingly get infected by viruses - biological or otherwise - in order to mutate and grow all the time. The Noxious Ultralisk strain was created by scientists experimenting on ways to injure the zerg. they used it to make Ultralisks that doubled as Chemical weapons. Similarly, they actually choose to be in radiation high areas(enough to almost instantly kill an unarmored man in certain areas, in char's case) on purpose because it's not harmful and gives them excuses to mutate further.



Se above to my earlier response about WMDS and bio-weapons in this post.



> As for Jerec, Varder, and Tarkin being willing to blow up or destroy worlds - while that's good, it really sucks if the zerg pop into Kuat or similar. they still do need their industry, and the fact the zerg can actually rip broods from off planet with wormholes and seem to be able to pop them right back on a different planet afterwards means their raids can be smaller planetary invasions.
> it's not like Kerrigan's going to get tired making wormholes. that's more or less her most casual use of power throughout the day.



They would have to know about Kaut in the first place. They would have to know where it is as well and what it represents on top of that. Also as important as Kuat is, there are thousands of other planets that have planetary encompassing corportations like Kuatt Drives who produce nothing but warships and other weapons for the Empire. The scale of the Empire itself is stupidly insane. Balmorra. Mon Calamari. Fondor. Bilbringi. Sullust. Corellia, Raxus Prime, Sluis Van. Yaga Minor. Just to name a few. In fact standard operating procedure is posessing at least two deepdock shipyards per sub-sector and dozens of orbital shipyards per sector.

No matter how much damage the Zerg do, crippling the military indsturial-complex of the galaxy is literally impossible given the size,s cope, and how far its widely spread across the greater galaxy.



> sometimes they'll even feint certain weaknesses - there's an entire story about Kerrigan duping some scientist women into thinking she'd found a way to control hydralisks only to reveal it was all specifically grown to screw with them and that she just had no clue how zerg biology worked.
> doing similar to bait out placebo viruses would be just another part of their modus operandi.



That's possible but the entire thing with Starcraft II in SoL and HoS has the player researching ways to counter attack Zerg biology to make more effective weapons and technology from them too, which is there.

[uote]Also, I thought the GA was superior in terms of actual tech, just not manpower, resources, etc.
even so, depending on how you scale Leviathans, they're either between an SD and an SSD in pure power, or they're just below an SSD.[/quote]

They aren't. The Galactic Alliance is superior to the New Republic because its far less incompetent. In terms of scale its just a large grouping of loosely confederated political groups, organizations, and planets that has a federalized goverment that doesn't have anywhere near the authority the New Republic originally did. Which is the main reason why the second Galactic Civil War happened in the first place. In terms of technology, that's really harder to say. Their best feat is developing the Alpha Red virus to genocide the Vong.

I don't know enough about Leviathans.



> yeah. I didn't doubt the feat and recalled it, just didn't know why looking at someone over a video feed would actually cause one's powers to be amplified over that range.
> it's no sillier than a 5 meter long zerg that can't weigh over 1 ton grabbing a 300,000 ton battlecruiser and pulling it like a fly instead of just splattering itself on the windshield really fast, I guess.



We can only judge it by the fact this range has only been displayed twice in similar feats by two different characters both requiring the same factor; visible targets, to effect with their powers. Though the source and databooks again like I said state people on these kind of levels have natural star system ranges with their offensive powers.



> to the first thing: because he doesn't have an anti-wormhole technique
> to the second thing: because psychics in SC can also do this and can block it.
> to the third thing: don't think he has a way to force storm out of the void.



a) he can use the Force Storm to counter the wormhole with his own one
b) that just gives more precedence that he can do it
c) he used a Force Storm on himself to transport his soul directly from the reactor shaft as it exploded his body to one of his clone bodies on Byss and like I mentioned before; the entirety of dead Jedi from the founding of the Jedi Order to Dark Empire couldn't even destroy his soul, only contain it in a special dimension within the Force itself



> Can he still do that in spirit form? It was my understanding he literally needed a body to access his full powerset. Though I guess he could have just wanted one because it's nice to be corporeal.



Most Force-Users are more powerful when they have physical bodies. That doesn't mean however that the strongest ones are powerless as Force ghosts or spirits. Vitiate returning as Valkorion even after his "physical" death, exhibited the ability as a Force ghost to utilize telekinesis, force lightning, visions into the future, inhabiting the Outlander's mind and body, augmenting their power, and so on. Sidious could use Force Storms, maintain his telepathy and brainwashing on Mara Jade and other Hands that survived the Battle of Endor, and Kallig was straight up ragdolling bitches and causing tens of thousands of Sith acolytes, apprentices, and soldiers to go insane at the Dark Temple just by waking up with his mere presence.

He isn't toothless.



> so why didn't he do that to Luke or Leia?
> PIS is a legitimate answer but I'd at least like to see some evidence of that one.



He did. He straight up threatened Luke after he transported him from Coruscant to a transport slave ship headed for Byss with that information. He asked Luke if he felt strong enough to resist him attempting to possess him and Luke backed down the moment he did that sensing the Emperor's power.

He had planned on also possessing Anakin Solo's body since his private physican had been bribed and was poisoning his clone bodies, forcing him into desperation to let Han shoot him so his spirit could jump into Anakin's infant body. Trust me, the only reason why he didn't do the former was because Luke backed down and accepted Palpatine as his master and in the latter because that one crippled Jedi Knight dude sacrificed himself to force Palpatine to take his body and then had every other dead Jedi drag him away.




> some of those feats wouldn't really break kerri by themselves.
> The multi planet force storms spammed constantly on the other hand aren't something the zerg have a single shot against.



I think being nommed by papa Sidious would be a big issue.


----------



## AgentAAA (May 8, 2016)

Fang said:


> Its a very small image, do you have a more higher resolution one? Because that can make the world of difference.



'ere we go.
fairly big upgrade on the novel version.
I've no idea why they have a bunch of ships also sitting there but doing absolutely nothing though.




> Like I said, half of it was the Confederacy being unable to make the simple decisions that would've ended Mengsk's support from his allies.


There wasn't that many easy decisions.
The problem with them concerning mengsk was that using too extreme an attack like launching a bunch of nukes was going to cause further issue with their already crumbling political support. not that they couldn't do it.
even then, though, Mengsk wasn't a threat. He didn't have a lot of forces, he wasn't causing any major damage post-kerrigan, and until Antiga(which, take away the zerg and Mengsk was going to have been completely cornered and dead, and he certainly wasn't predicting the confederate counter-attack there), and frankly the confeds had bigger fish to fry with all the other rebellions as well as the Kel-morian combine chomping at the bit to take advantage of any new perceived weakness in their empire.
Point is, they might have underestimated Mengsk, but he really wasn't a big enough name for it to matter for the most part. Take away the zerg and he was never going to be more than an ant biting their foot.
So basically, he occupied the same position the rebellion did.


I see.




> They were just newer updated versions of the same model X-Wings, E-Wings, K-Wings, Tie-Fighters, Tie-Interceptors, Tie-Defenders, Chiss Clawcraft, Vong starfighters, etc...They were keeping pace with turbolasers and blaster fire being knocked around via the Belsavis battle.


define keeping pace with here. that could range from relativistic to MFTL if I recall turbolaser speeds correctly and depending on what you mean regarding the feat.
Either way, "updates" mean a lot depending on the fiction.



> Like I said. This was just the Death Star, not even going at full speed, around an elliptical path with its sublight engines around a massive gas giant.


fair enough, but it's not impressive by any SC standard, so while it's not insignificant as a point, it just gives us a minimum bar that's been cleared more or less.



> Each of those turrets on the major cannons can act in a sense as its own separate unit.


Not really all that different from the battlecruiser's laser batteries.
I'll agree they are probably going to be more effective by virtue of an advantage in number of different blasts, when it comes down to pure firepower, but it's going to be a moderate difference at best.



> That feat was for an unarmed, UNSHIELDED, non-military vessel that was getting pounded by comets and asteroids. at relatively fast speeds in space. This is as low as you get for a starship.


and 3 orders of magnitude below the focused firepower of any member of the zerg airforce.
It's not an impressive feat, is what I'm saying.





> In space, I doubt Zerg aerial units would have any edge in terms of manuvreability or agility on Imperial starfighters. In the atmosphere? Its probably leans in their court though.


Wraiths were able to dodge around behemoth and gorgon class battlecruisers while taking no or low amounts of hits from their laser batteries. Mutalisks completely shat on them in that field. Should be equivalent to TIE interceptors at the very least.
In atmosphere they're about the same.



> Zerg can chill within the influence of neutron and positron stars without any protection? That I find doubtful.


Affix a number and then we can talk a bit better on this one, but Zerg don't actually have an issue with Radiation. they specifically live where it's in high concentration. Gravity on the other hand isn't really even a problem for battlecruisers, most of the time.




> Force-Users certainly can and Palpatine would have no issue with that. Not like he would bother though, he'd just fry everything and call it a day.


assuming the zerg don't walk away or just infect him with something.




> Like I said in my earlier post, at least when it comes to the Zerg and Terrans, the Empire would have no issue after awhile of learning how to detect and find cloaked or invisible units. That style of warfare is known in the galaxy and cloaked warships or military units aren't a new thing by any means. Movement, energy, electrical, heat, mass,etc...if one of those is there, they will get detected at some point.


the former 4 are something they can cloak from at the very least.




> Sounds like outside of Amon that their still inhabiting the same "physical" universe like how hyperspace operates separating tachyonic from baryonic states.


Amon's area is stated to be the area between universes and where the Xel'naga are normally supposed to operate.
It's possible that's an area of the void that's also in a different physical area that doesn't occupy a universe either, though.
They did all leave and go fight him there, without any actual change in how matter, energy, etc. worked though.




> Just sounds like there's an inconsistency with how their interstellar travel is supposed to work.


I didn't deny it, just said where I leaned on how the interstellar travel works given we have different sources reporting it differently.



> Half a second is plenty of time to make either a pre-calculated jump or a blind one into hyperspace. Also again, there's literally hundreds of anti-starfighter and dozens upon dozens of heavy cannons and turrets that will blow shit away as well as already prior mentioned tractor beam projectors/emitters that can push shit away.. And if I remember right, Vong gretchins work similarly but still required the Vong warships to pound down a warship's shields before they applied them given how the neutronium material used in heavy warship armor is so durable.


Tractor beams might be a problem, but I doubt the ship's going to be firing accurately at allgiven how vipers have worked with similar loads. The viper basically grabs similarly sized and weighted ships with it's tongue without effort. they're unlikely to be shooting accurately when pulled from such a small surface area through space at a pretty incredible speed. it's not often one can hold to perfect accuracy when grabbed like a fruit fly.


> Half a second is plenty of time to make either a pre-calculated jump or a blind one into hyperspace. Also again, there's literally hundreds of anti-starfighter and dozens upon dozens of heavy cannons and turrets that will blow shit away as well as already prior mentioned tractor beam projectors/emitters that can push shit away.


A couple of seconds of fire on a leviathan from something without the "super" classification isn't even going to really scratch the leviathan.
That same picture from before is fire from ships well below anything the Leviathan would smush with bio-plasmids or just a casual slap.
Outside of that, I'm not sure how well they're going to be aiming or firing while being pulled against their will through space.
it seems like the sort of thing that messes up your aim




> Palpatine certainly would for the hell of it. His most valuable forces? Probably not. The cannon fodder? Certainly just to see how the Zerg operate and react. I mean he did this to even one of his own Grand Admirals by sending the dude deliberately into Hapan space with a weak "fleet" consisting of nothing more then an outdated cruiser and half a dozen or so gunships so he'd get mauled by their defense forces.


could screw palps depending on how careful the zerg are.
They did have the terrans thinking there was no hivemind or overarching leader for a while just to let them lead them to targets with psychic potential after all(and... probably for the fun of fucking with them and the protoss in all honesty.).
either way if Palps could make an ally of the zerg I imagine he'd have absolutely no problem doing it. a force of horrifying monsters he can use to wipe out troubling planets without any suspicion aimed towards the empire whatsoever? It must be his birthday.




> We've had history of hive viruses going plague level that ended up wiping out entire planetary populations. As for just a mention of a handful of bio-weapons the Empire has made:


Neither surprising nor above what the terrans have naturally encountered.
Zerg Virus did that to the entire population of Meinhoff in a matter of days, and that was just testing a half-done new strain of it.



> - Aorth-6 which literally liquidates the internals of whoever inhales or ingests it and melts the victim internally. Unless Zerg species don't breathe organically, their susceptible to it. Even the Emperor was infected wtih this bio-weapon but his power kept him alive and staved off the effects until he was given a vaccine to cure himself, so this is a huge deal.


Okay, how does it liquidate them?
Regardless...
they don't need to breathe Organically.
They can do it to add energy to their muscles, but zerg are generally anaerobic hybrids.
hence why they can fight in space without a problem.
The Roach already has it's internals melting constantly due to it's metal-eating acid being stored internally and their regeneration just happens to be so high they completely ignore this.



> - Krytos virus which will can anything non-human; literally more then two dozen named species and hundreds more died by the hundreds of millions to it within a few hours of its releasing. Many of the species were widely different genetically, more so then what constitutes all the various Zerg species. The way it works is aggressively invading and destroying "cell by cell" that causes necrosis and removes all organic matter from the victim's body. The virus itself will also not stop reproducing itself ever in the victim until the host is thoroughly destroyed. It was designed for cross-species transmission (body fluids, contact,  water/liquids, gas, etc...) and proved that, pretty sure either way its going to be a major danger to the Zerg.


so it attacks by causing necrosis... except Zerg come back from total necrosis with just a bit of aid, so not really a problem.
as for aggressively attacking "cell by cell": The zerg already have a large portion of their own cells devoted to attacking anything abnormal. it's part of their weird evolutionary process. Their cellular structure is ornery and fights itself, improving the entire time.
this is also ignoring the fact they regenerate at an incredibly rapid rate and have their own micro-organisms in the form of hive spores.
zerg virus already changes ridiculously and is carried by all existing cells, and has caused far more serious effects, so I'd give it the edge here. The Zerg deal with viruses all the time and even if it managed to hurt their cells they'd just use that as a way to create a new petri dish.
This is also ignoring the fact the zerg innards already attack and heal themselves so much they're basically a new creature in a few days regardless.
Or the fact that Roaches carry a crapton of deadly pathogens and chemicals in their acid saliva and are completely fine, or that the creep will aggressively eat any matter, organic or otherwise, that isn't inherently zerg and destroy it regardless.
Hell, Noxious Ultralisks carried a mixture of dominion chemicals and viruses specifically keyed to kill zerg with a lot more specifics and knowledge, and with Mengsk's total lack of Morals off.
it ended with a chemical mixture that caused nearby humans to dissolve and that was let off as a gaseous mixture around said ultralisks.
it's implied that the Ultralisks themselves aren't immune, just that durable and regenerative.
It's also notable that them being able to copy these same chemicals means there should be no problem releasing similar gases as a chemical weapon.



> - Blue Shadow virus that was apparently such a big deal in the past that it affected everything and everyone and wiped out a large number of the galaxy's population generations before the main events of the OT/PT eras; all we know is it rapidly infects and kills everyone but the updated and genetically improved version could move or transmit itself via aerial means then originally just through water.


again, not really much for feats here.



> - Trihexalon which was a bio-weaponed of mass destruction used to cause "complete biomass conversion" on a planetary scale. Even a single vial the size of a human palm is apparently lethal enough to kill over 300 Wookiees with no problem. Trade Federation and Confederacy used this before and during the Clone Wars and the Empire has stocks of it as well since the Empire took all of the Confederacy's assets after the end of the Clone Wars.


300 wookies would lose to a zergling in a fight so I don't find the dosage that impressive to be honest compared to the physical ability of the things they'd be infecting, that already have ridiculous bio-weapon protection.
These are building to town level physical powerhouses that can take a bath in the same amount of radiation that'd almost instantly kill a human and feel fine. and that's just for the ground strains.



> - Brainworm Rot plague that can infect humanoids and non-humanoids and attacks the brain and central nervous system until the victim dies shortly after infection.


Zerg are pretty experienced in neural parasites. there's a reason they made one that allows for near-instant mind control when they hit things with it. none of these viruses appear to even surpass what they've managed to make with their own experiments in terms of actual effects.



> - Blackwing virus like we talked about earlier.


Not really sure what to even think about blackwing Virus given I wasn't given much details other than "it was a threat" and "it was made with the dark side.".
ignoring the fact it'd have pretty damn little to work with given how much it actually takes to kill a zerg and leave a corpse(Zerglings have quite a few showings of fighting past losing over half their body mass, and it's apparently a little known fact that Ultralisks have continued a charge unbroken while missing two of their legs), they mainly... Rescuscitate a corpse and use it's knowledge? and create a hive-mind?
Blackwing's getting crushed if it tries to mess with the biological protocols already in a zerg body, more likely than not.




> - Nano Destroyer virus that destroys the host body one cell at a time; this particular virus can be genetically altered to specifically target specific individuals or species based off using said being's genetic make up. Required an extremely powerful Force-Healer to save Mon Mothma when she was infected with it; no other cure worked even after her doctors and other researchers used every scrap of information the Empire had on it, everything else failed. The Empire wasn't able to ever produce a cure for it. In fact the only reason they knew there was something wrong with her was because of her symptoms, the virus itself is undetectable.
> 
> As for Rakghouls, like I said, they were created with dark side alchemy through the Force. They are quite literally mindless and only exist to kill and feed. Initially certain aliens and any Force-User would be immune to the effects of the Muur Talisman transforming its victims into Rakghouls but the Rakghouls themselves can spread the infection and transformation process via physical contact.


Any specifics on just what safeguards them?
Albeit, odds are even if they were too much of an issue to physically touch they're just getting bathed in plasma, puke, fungus, and other pathogens.




> They're going to be doing that with every planet then.


...okay?
that's not really a problem. You can't go 5 yards in a zerg infested planet without running into thousands to millions of mutalisks, especialyl if they're not conserving resources and attempting not to spread like they were for a while between BW and SC2.



> Hundreds of satellites are placed in orbit over a targeted planet, each of them have an umbrella like extension that sends out a discharge system of energy that captures and prevents any heat or light from reaching the surface. Any and all forms of light or energy are intercepted, said energy is used to recycle and power the nightcloak satellites perpetually. Very rapidly said planet would be trapped in eternal darkness and caused rapid freezing of the planet which creates a new ice age.


okay, that doesn't prevent heat or light originating from the planet from working.
The zerg generate more heat than they give off as of stetmann's samples, which means there's not a lot they can do to stop that.




> Corruption will likely turn the various Zerg species possibly against each other. Who knows what effect it could have on Kerrigan or the Queens. As for feats, like I've said we've seen the dark side corrupt entire planets and species, maybe not species as quite as unique as the Zerg, but they're not walking off the effects or experience of it.


You know, unless they just use the force normally, or don't experiment with the dark side.
why is it turning them against eachother, though?
Again, ignoring the fact that it's not like every zerg creature would suddenly be connected to the force, and that the dark side doesn't seem to actually inevitably cause a complete loss of basic order, and that the zerg aren't "speciesist" - if we're being technical they're all just different strains of zerg and might be considered different breeds rather than entirely different species - They're also held in place by biological protocols that wouldn't allow them to regardless. They're sentient, but they have certain overriding directives they're physically incapable of disobeying without some form of full-on mind control.



> >Imperial higher-ups generally did exude darkness.
> Not the same kind of darkness here.
> >Vader got a little insane
> Also not the same thing I'm talking about it.


'kay.
Why is it different?
and why's it affecting something that literally can't leave it's hivemind and thus is still going to be stuck being Kerri's bottom bitch.




> This isn't mind-fuckery. This is literally life-force essenice drain, Sith leviathans have shown they will and have adapted to different enviroments, they simply will awake from hibernation, and start draining and nomming on everything around them. Also I have no idea why your bringing up ethics or morals, animals don't have those and they've been corrupted by the dark side, it makes no difference to the Force honestly.


Okay?
Life-force draining is already done in canon by hybrid, vipers and defilers in order to recharge their own stores of bio-energy, etc.
Not that they're going to immediately be able to resist all attempts(indeed they sort of have to be vulnerable in some respects), but this isn't some scary unknown thing, and said Leviathans are just as likely to get attacked and then broken into bits and pieces unless you have a feat that isn't already surpassed by the barest amount of what a zerg creature can do.

If the zerg virus doesn't invade them either way.



> It certainly helps though.


...does it? this seems like hax, and hax nothing in the galaxy has defense for.
being able to infect different species when you're already an omni-infectant to any species without a ton of psychic power and a satanic hivemind of your own to use to keep out your opponent.



> Having a resistance to infection isn't remotely the same medically or scientifically speaking to having an incredible resistance to viruses, pathological bacteria, and what not. Point was genetically speaking, life is more varied, widespread, and intermixed in Star Wars due to how interconnected the millions of different sentient species interact; foods, half-breed hybrids, influences of outbreaks of plagues and viruses, it actually does make a large difference.


It really, really doesn't, due to the nature of the zerg themselves.
they were built, designed, and used as a way to infect a bunch of different species.
and honestly?
The idea SW has more things is true, but it's not like it's by some huge factor.
The terrans, protoss, and zerg aren't even the only spacefaring races, they just happen to be the only ones to come into the story.
The protoss empire took care of dozens of other races and some of them were listed as having intergalactic travel. the terrans were actually just one of many under their jurisdiction and by their judgement not all that impressive.
The zerg themselves have a gigantic number of other races they ate after rampaging across the galaxy absorbing anything they found, and they have only gotten stronger as a result.
The Dominion have basically pulled out all the stops trying to create SOMETHING to kill them, only to find any and every design they've made to reach a crashing halt during the attempt.
The Protoss tried to figure out a way to kill Zerg creep, and in the attempt to create a virus using their own technology to kill it off, they instead allowed it to mutate enough to infect protoss. this is just what they've done when someone's attempted it on non-thinking creatures.
it's been made relatively clear that on a cellular level the zerg themselves have a near-invincible biology, and just the viruses and diseases they've created on their own seem to be more potent and impressive than the ones you've listed so far.



> Also in NJO, we ultimately learn that one of the reasons the Vong couldn't originally be detected in the Force was by being from a different galaxy, the Force treats them differently and why different galaxies have different signatures or "frequencies" within it.


ahh, alright.
not that it'd matter because equalization, but does that mean the force is different, in different galaxies, or just that depending on the galaxy the force works differently?
Or is it just random sectioning it does for no reason?



> Didn't really change any canon. It was like I said just a plot device excuse with The Force Unleashed II since the canon route was Starkiller dies self-sacrificing himself to save Juno and the others from the Emperor in the original game. They needed an excuse to reuse his character and since they couldn't hand wave it with bullshit claiming he survived even though the Emperor straight up says he's dead, Blackman decided to use the age old "let's make a clone of him and make that one the new main character", which is what they did.
> 
> This contradicts pretty much every other material on the topic in EU of cloning Force-Users.


so it's just an inconsistency then.
Wasn't C'baoth a successful clone though?



> Zenoma Sekot's parent, the Vong's original home world, didn't strip them of the Force. It banished the Vong species from it and they were forced to wander their home galaxy after they ended up having a massive civil war that wiped out most other beings and life forms in said home galaxy. Zenoma Sekot can certainly use the Force though.
> 
> As for Plagueis and Sidious, they tried to create a new being entirely through the Force using a combination of science, dark side rituals, and Sith alchemy but the effort was only partially successful. Due to the inherent nature of them being dark siders, the Force countered that as well as the attempt to control it itself to create Anakin Skywalker.  Anakin Skywaker was created in reaction to this indirectly on the part of both the Sith and the Force but was designed to ultimately destroy the Sith, which he did, so there's that.


so the force is far sneakier than the average universe-spanning energy field.
alright then.



> Not sure what you mean by any of this to be honest.


basically, that it's a pointless discussion.
Zerg-created force users'd be featless and statless.
Recently infested force users'd get a + to existing stats.
They won't factor into the battle.



> The Vong were stripped of the Force because they perverted life itself and their religion and culture is centered around sadism and sadomasochistic beliefs of racial supremacy and mainly because...well you know they wiped out their entire home galaxy and made it so ravaged by war that it was no longer inhabitable.
> 
> The Rakghouls are literally just brainless, mindless, Sithspawn created via Sith magic.


To be fair, wouldn't the Rakghouls also try to just populate the galaxy with Rakghouls? Not that they're thinking about it that way but I'd imagine a vong-controlled galaxy would still be better than a Rakghoul-controlled one on the "Unperverted life" scale.




> Average Vong Warrior is on par with the average trained Jedi or Dark Jedi. Their own WMDs are probably even more effective against the Zerg then regular people and considering the size of their military and population that they were able to nearly overrun the entire galaxy, I don't think they'd go down.


Outside of the fact they were below the empire, all of their technology is biological and thus could be recreated as a Zerg variant, so not the best.



> Yes.
> 
> Just not your regular run-of-the-mill average ones. Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior in SWTOR go fucking around in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas in SWTOR and got wrecked by various ancient Sith spirits and Force ghosts who were stupidly powerful even in their weakened states having been just reawakened. Even though the Warrior and Inquisitor are incredibly powerful, they got ragdolled since they didn't have the power or knowledge to fight Force ghosts yet. The Inquisitor's entire arc is learning the Force-Walk in Act II because when they get attacked by Kallig, Ergast, and Andru, they cast Force Lightning wasn't doesn't do jack shit.


Alright then.




> Its not contradictory. Palpatine has the virtue of being alive to he's able to continually increase his power and mastery of the dark side by studying and learning more. Windu can't progress his strength because he's dead after the duel on Coruscant and Yoda goes into hiding on Dagaboh after Order #66 is put into effect. As for soul fuckery, yes I imagine Yoda, Windu, and so on at their level could handle it.
> 
> And yes it was. We know that Palpatine is hugely more powerful between RoTS to RoTJ to confirm he's long overshadowed Plagueis at this point.


>implying he already hadn't long overshadowed by RotS.
Yoda seemed to have been improving his mastery and training continually on Dagobah to be fair but yeah, alright. if it's just that huge an upgrade it's fine.




> Like I said: Vader got massively upgraded since the last year or so, he's multi-continental himself. Even a  much weaker version (pre-RoTS for that matter) was able to handle country to continental level firepower and Force drain fuckery from the Harvester during the Clone Wars. In fact by RoTJ Vader is very match at his strongest and peak and even surpassed his best as Anakin in RoTS curbstomping Dooku.
> 
> In fact without CIS/PIS bllshit, Vader has a lot more powers to use like his own version of Force drain. And Jerec again is described as being just "not QUITE" as powerful as him.


Problem is Kerrigan's able to do all that on an extremely casual basis. Like "I just felt like yelling" casual, has incredibly fast regen to the point she can just recreate a wing in seconds, has TK just as flexible as Vader's own, and even if she dies?
Resurrects in a minute's time at the nearest hatchery to her location fresh again.





> Se above to my earlier response about WMDS and bio-weapons in this post.


you posted a bunch of fairly typical biological and chemical weapons.
I have issues believing they'd work at all.



> They would have to know about Kaut in the first place. They would have to know where it is as well and what it represents on top of that. Also as important as Kuat is, there are thousands of other planets that have planetary encompassing corportations like Kuatt Drives who produce nothing but warships and other weapons for the Empire. The scale of the Empire itself is stupidly insane. Balmorra. Mon Calamari. Fondor. Bilbringi. Sullust. Corellia, Raxus Prime, Sluis Van. Yaga Minor. Just to name a few. In fact standard operating procedure is posessing at least two deepdock shipyards per sub-sector and dozens of orbital shipyards per sector.


it literally just takes mindraping or infesting someone with knowledge.
it's not going to be difficult for zerg to get knowledge in general here.



> No matter how much damage the Zerg do, crippling the military indsturial-complex of the galaxy is literally impossible given the size,s cope, and how far its widely spread across the greater galaxy.'


Given they'd be spreading exponentially while doing this and gradually have more and more to fight back with? it'd at the least be a pretty damn good bet to try. especially since it forces the empire to spread out it's forces.




> That's possible but the entire thing with Starcraft II in SoL and HoS has the player researching ways to counter attack Zerg biology to make more effective weapons and technology from them too, which is there.


I'm going to assume you mean WoL?
they figure out the hive-mind emulator, which does work to a degree until they adapt against it(according to WoG, though I'd really need to dig to find the quote again)
and they do find specific bursts of concentrated sigma radiation which still does somewhat slow zerg life-forms for some reason, though it apparently doesn't do more than that even if you crank it.
that said? Most of it doesn't have to do with counter-attacking as much as learning from zerg biology.
Stetmann learned from how their bodies worked to create turrets that could burrow like zerg do, bunkers made similarly to ultralisk armor, etc.
It was less "how can we counter it", and more, "how can we create objectively better technology from learning from their biology".
Similar to how scientists do things now by studying animals.



> They aren't. The Galactic Alliance is superior to the New Republic because its far less incompetent. In terms of scale its just a large grouping of loosely confederated political groups, organizations, and planets that has a federalized goverment that doesn't have anywhere near the authority the New Republic originally did. Which is the main reason why the second Galactic Civil War happened in the first place. In terms of technology, that's really harder to say. Their best feat is developing the Alpha Red virus to genocide the Vong.
> 
> I don't know enough about Leviathans.


The new zerg capital ships. can self-produce their own fighters at an alarming rate mid-battle, attack using their very large tentacles, spontaneously spawned and discharged swarms of scourge, and bio-plasmid discharge(which... it's just a fancy name for plasma), and are the third strongest ships in the galaxy behind the Protoss motherships and Arkships.
Which means they're certainly above the ships purifying Mar Sara up there by a decent margin and potentially scale to Motherships with Planet-busting abilities.




> We can only judge it by the fact this range has only been displayed twice in similar feats by two different characters both requiring the same factor; visible targets, to effect with their powers. Though the source and databooks again like I said state people on these kind of levels have natural star system ranges with their offensive powers.


fair enough.



> a) he can use the Force Storm to counter the wormhole with his own one


okay. Kerrigan makes a wormhole directly on him.
there's also a force storm he's standing in now.
Good



> b) that just gives more precedence that he can do it


these aren't kamehameha's. You just now have either a wormhole in a force storm or a force storm in a wormhole. I'm not sure if this helps or just makes it worse.
how big's the biggest wormhole he's made with force storm anyhoo? 



> c) he used a Force Storm on himself to transport his soul directly from the reactor shaft as it exploded his body to one of his clone bodies on Byss and like I mentioned before; the entirety of dead Jedi from the founding of the Jedi Order to Dark Empire couldn't even destroy his soul, only contain it in a special dimension within the Force itself


So Force storm's also a unique power that can allow souls to transport around too, then?
Alright.



> Most Force-Users are more powerful when they have physical bodies. That doesn't mean however that the strongest ones are powerless as Force ghosts or spirits. Vitiate returning as Valkorion even after his "physical" death, exhibited the ability as a Force ghost to utilize telekinesis, force lightning, visions into the future, inhabiting the Outlander's mind and body, augmenting their power, and so on. Sidious could use Force Storms, maintain his telepathy and brainwashing on Mara Jade and other Hands that survived the Battle of Endor, and Kallig was straight up ragdolling bitches and causing tens of thousands of Sith acolytes, apprentices, and soldiers to go insane at the Dark Temple just by waking up with his mere presence.
> 
> He isn't toothless.


fair enough.



> He did. He straight up threatened Luke after he transported him from Coruscant to a transport slave ship headed for Byss with that information. He asked Luke if he felt strong enough to resist him attempting to possess him and Luke backed down the moment he did that sensing the Emperor's power.
> 
> He had planned on also possessing Anakin Solo's body since his private physican had been bribed and was poisoning his clone bodies, forcing him into desperation to let Han shoot him so his spirit could jump into Anakin's infant body. Trust me, the only reason why he didn't do the former was because Luke backed down and accepted Palpatine as his master and in the latter because that one crippled Jedi Knight dude sacrificed himself to force Palpatine to take his body and then had every other dead Jedi drag him away.
> 
> ...


I don't think he possessed anyone that'd scale to Kerrigan, though I'm super unsure on where DE Luke and Leia sit.
I'd ask why he didn't go for Luke from the beginning instead of the baby, but PIS is PIS and he's got more than enough evidence to take those stats.[/quote]


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## Fang (May 8, 2016)

Fix your quotes so I can respond


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## AgentAAA (May 8, 2016)

Fang said:


> Fix your quotes so I can respond


my bad. fixed.


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## Kaaant (May 8, 2016)

> 'ere we go.
> fairly big upgrade on the novel version.
> I've no idea why they have a bunch of ships also sitting there but doing absolutely nothing though.



Haven't really been following this line of conversation but I remember Han saying in episode 4 that a thousand non specific ships would be able to do what the Death Star did to Alderaan. 



> to the first thing: because he doesn't have an anti-wormhole technique
> to the second thing: because psychics in SC can also do this and can block it.
> to the third thing: don't think he has a way to force storm out of the void.



I was more going for him interfering with the creation of the wormholes themselves, especially if other psychics can do it as well. 

Force storms exist throughout the Galaxy, and probably the entire universe, and Palpatine can create them at will, and as of DE can do them casually. The "moment" Sidious died as a spirit was able to force storm his way from Endor to Kaal, and seemingly by causing no damage. 


_*



			The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the
		
Click to expand...





			Emperor's Shadowto plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

Click to expand...

*_



​If you look where it says "mid rim" it's right between Kaal and Endor, so it might even be a speed feat for Sheev. 

Sidious has illusion and concealing feats that are among the best in the series; from hiding his presence from and clouding the farsight of the entire Jedi order, including Windu and Yoda. 


> Can he still do that in spirit form? It was my understanding he literally needed a body to access his full powerset. Though I guess he could have just wanted one because it's nice to be corporeal.


well it was his spirit specifically that was being held back. I'm not sure if these bodies were sabotaged (because some were) but DE Sidious was so evil that his spirit inhabiting them was making the bodies themselves degenerate.




> _so why didn't he do that to Luke or Leia?_
> PIS is a legitimate answer but I'd at least like to see some evidence of that one.



Probably PIS to be honest but here's the picture. 

His body was heavily weakened and rapidly degenerating at this stage due to sabotage. He went after Leia's unborn child because it's part of the Skywalker lineage.

Some of his best feats come from old Palps. As soon as he died in ROTJ he went straight to his cloned body on Byss. His best TP feat was before this, as was his best illusion feats and a plethora of other things. 
​


> some of those feats wouldn't really break kerri by themselves.
> The multi planet force storms spammed constantly on the other hand aren't something the zerg have a single shot against.


[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
You'd have to be the judge honestly, I've never played star craft. 

Those force storms can move between light years worth of distance in seconds, but putting that aside: pre DE Sidious can casually mind and soul fuck billions to trillions of people at once, and keep it up for years at a time; can fight the Zerg across the galaxy from the comfort of his own chair; can mentally detect the Zerg's presence and relay their location and intentions to his admirals, whilst using battle meditation to amplify his soldiers (that should already have relativistic reactions)  and coordinating them. He can do it all at once, whilst also seeing into the future and handing his power out to dark force adepts

Even his moon level DC is a decent lowball if you break it down, considering it comes from a feat Vitiate did when he was a hundred years old. Fast forwards 1200 years later to the end of his tenure as Vitiate and he'd only been getting stronger since then, and was even continuously depleting the reserves of another moon level character (Revan) for 300 of those years. And Palpy was stronger than at least this version of Vitiate, plus iirc Plaguies' death cause the stars to shake or something like that. 

This is just a quote on his battle meditation:



> _*Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire couldn’t last without his dread power: he had designed it that way. No one ever suspected how much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He shaped those of his government by using the Force against them. He used it to control his fleets and to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no way the Empire could endure, as he had designed it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some primordial ichor and was the key to all his power.*_[/COLOR]





> _*[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny.*_


_*[/COLOR]*_
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
_*And @Fang, here's the one you wanted:*_



> _*Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off.*_* A pity, my son, *_*he thought*_*. You could have joined me and together...we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. *_*As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin.*_* Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.*[/COLOR]





> _*[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's...discomfort.[/COLOR]*_*[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)] [/COLOR]*_*[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]"Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss [/COLOR]*_*[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]my[/COLOR]*_*[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)] new trophy."
> "Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.*_


_*[/COLOR]*_


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## AgentAAA (May 8, 2016)

> Haven't really been following this line of conversation but I remember Han saying in episode 4 that a thousand non specific ships would be able to do what the Death Star did to Alderaan.


I don't recall any ships having the numbers to do that except SSD's, which Han may or may not have known about at the time.
seems a bit like nonspecific hyperbole tbh.



> I was more going for him interfering with the creation of the wormholes themselves, especially if other psychics can do it as well.


Blocking wormholes isn't a shown power in SC canon. I was referring to attempting direct TK.
Really, it's more common for a telekinetic to attempt to boil your brain than anything else when it comes to people with psionic ability, and they're more than capable of making barriers to block their output.



> If you look where it says "mid rim" it's right between Kaal and Endor, so it might even be a speed feat for Sheev.
> 
> Sidious has illusion and concealing feats that are among the best in the series; from hiding his presence from and clouding the farsight of the entire Jedi order, including Windu and Yoda.


If it's through wormholes it'd be a Teleportation feat and thus probably just fall under "instant transportation within a range".
Which isn't bad either.



> Probably PIS to be honest but here's the picture.
> 
> His body was heavily weakened and rapidly degenerating at this stage due to sabotage. He went after Leia's unborn child because it's part of the Skywalker lineage.
> 
> Some of his best feats come from old Palps. As soon as he died in ROTJ he went straight to his cloned body on Byss. His best TP feat was before this, as was his best illusion feats and a plethora of other things.


HOLY SHIT WHAT HAPPENED TO LEIA'S FACE!
That is generally just PIS then, though.



> Those force storms can move between light years worth of distance in seconds, but putting that aside: pre DE Sidious can casually mind and soul fuck billions to trillions of people at once, and keep it up for years at a time; can fight the Zerg across the galaxy from the comfort of his own chair; can mentally detect the Zerg's presence and relay their location and intentions to his admirals, whilst using battle meditation to amplify his soldiers (that should already have relativistic reactions) and coordinating them. He can do it all at once, whilst also seeing into the future and handing his power out to dark force adepts
> 
> Even his moon level DC is a decent lowball if you break it down, considering it comes from a feat Vitiate did when he was a hundred years old. Fast forwards 1200 years later to the end of his tenure as Vitiate and he'd only been getting stronger since then, and was even continuously depleting the reserves of another moon level character (Revan) for 300 of those years. And Palpy was stronger than at least this version of Vitiate, plus iirc Plaguies' death cause the stars to shake or something like that.


While Mind fuck on Sidious's side is stronk, Kerrigan's mentally controlling what should be at least hundreds of billions of zerg at all times. all of which are technically sentient and have no issue forming their own society on being properly freed from the hive-mind. not to mention several billion protoss(going off of Aiur population alone) getting mindraped by Amon but Kerri wasn't controllable by him.


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## Fang (May 9, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> 'ere we go.
> fairly big upgrade on the novel version.
> I've no idea why they have a bunch of ships also sitting there but doing absolutely nothing though.



Looking at the larger size version it seems more like an eruption then one of those beams going through it.



> There wasn't that many easy decisions.
> The problem with them concerning mengsk was that using too extreme an attack like launching a bunch of nukes was going to cause further issue with their already crumbling political support. not that they couldn't do it.
> even then, though, Mengsk wasn't a threat. He didn't have a lot of forces, he wasn't causing any major damage post-kerrigan, and until Antiga(which, take away the zerg and Mengsk was going to have been completely cornered and dead, and he certainly wasn't predicting the confederate counter-attack there), and frankly the confeds had bigger fish to fry with all the other rebellions as well as the Kel-morian combine chomping at the bit to take advantage of any new perceived weakness in their empire.
> Point is, they might have underestimated Mengsk, but he really wasn't a big enough name for it to matter for the most part. Take away the zerg and he was never going to be more than an ant biting their foot.
> So basically, he occupied the same position the rebellion did.



Ahhh gotcha.



> define keeping pace with here. that could range from relativistic to MFTL if I recall turbolaser speeds correctly and depending on what you mean regarding the feat.
> Either way, "updates" mean a lot depending on the fiction.



This was a super powered special turbolaser designed to hit from Borleias system to the Coruscant system to replicate an illusions of the power of the Death Star's superlaser to fuck with the Vong psychologically. They were going pretty fucking fast relative to said turbolaser firing. It took only a second or two from it to travel from the Colonies region to the Core region where the Coruscant system is while the beam was in transit.

Definitely well above relativistic at any rate.



> fair enough, but it's not impressive by any SC standard, so while it's not insignificant as a point, it just gives us a minimum bar that's been cleared more or less.



That's what I was making clear.



> Not really all that different from the battlecruiser's laser batteries.
> I'll agree they are probably going to be more effective by virtue of an advantage in number of different blasts, when it comes down to pure firepower, but it's going to be a moderate difference at best.



Possibly, maybe. Cannons and turrets and even batteries all have different roles. Batteries are meant to deal with starfighters and act as point-defense weapons systems to shoot down missiles, torpedoes, and enemy fighters. Hence why they are rapid fire while cannons and turrets are meant to bombard planets, bases, or other warships.



> and 3 orders of magnitude below the focused firepower of any member of the zerg airforce.
> It's not an impressive feat, is what I'm saying.



Its pretty impressive when said starship I'm talking about it a civilian one with no military tech and said feat was done by it unshielded.



> Wraiths were able to dodge around behemoth and gorgon class battlecruisers while taking no or low amounts of hits from their laser batteries. Mutalisks completely shat on them in that field. Should be equivalent to TIE interceptors at the very least.
> In atmosphere they're about the same.



Small starfighters or analog equivalent dodging heavy fire from capital ships isn't really surprising given they move too fast for heavier weapon systems to traverse or fire in the first place. And in any case these are dedicated AA weapon emplacements, dunno shit about battlecruisers' own laser battieres in Starcraft but starfighters tend to get pounded by these things. Even a glancing hit is usually enough to vaporize a shielded starfighter like an X-Wing with its deflectors at double strength.



> Affix a number and then we can talk a bit better on this one, but Zerg don't actually have an issue with Radiation. they specifically live where it's in high concentration. Gravity on the other hand isn't really even a problem for battlecruisers, most of the time.



I severely doubt Zerg are tanking being with less then 1000 kilometers of a neutron star which was done by two unarmed smuggler starships. Just to explain why this is a big deal, when Han had to rescue his ex from being destroyed, he had to fly within a closer range to said neutron star as her starship was pulled in. Gravity at that range with a neutron star is about 200 million m/s², or 20 million g's of acceleration force. Not even getting into the electromagnetic interference and radiation. Similarly we have ISDs sitting Nkollon's upper atmosphere that's so close to its own star that the described information given is the equivalent to the Earth being in close proxomity to the inner corona of our own star.



> assuming the zerg don't walk away or just infect him with something.



Palpatine won't get infected. Weaker Force-Users have resisted petrification and lol nopped transmutation powers straight up, so I'm not seeing that happening.



> the former 4 are something they can cloak from at the very least.



What do you mean?



> Amon's area is stated to be the area between universes and where the Xel'naga are normally supposed to operate.
> It's possible that's an area of the void that's also in a different physical area that doesn't occupy a universe either, though.
> They did all leave and go fight him there, without any actual change in how matter, energy, etc. worked though.



Between the universes? So its not a separate universe but rather a connected reality or dimension then, at least that's the gist of what I'm getting.



> I didn't deny it, just said where I leaned on how the interstellar travel works given we have different sources reporting it differently.



That sounds like an issue to me is what I'm saying.



> Tractor beams might be a problem, but I doubt the ship's going to be firing accurately at allgiven how vipers have worked with similar loads. The viper basically grabs similarly sized and weighted ships with it's tongue without effort. they're unlikely to be shooting accurately when pulled from such a small surface area through space at a pretty incredible speed. it's not often one can hold to perfect accuracy when grabbed like a fruit fly.



Tractor beams don't have anything to do with lightspeed jumps ignoring what's being tractored is going to be hauled into hyperspace with the lightspeed accelerating vessel in question. And I should mention this, its standard protocol for military warships in the Empire to have dozens of pre-loaded jump routes in their navicomputers in the case of disaster or defeat so it saves time and lives already being prepared to escape instead of having to set them up manually. I don't think a Viper grabbing a large Imperial warships as it jumps into lightspeed is going to be beneficial for it. 



> A couple of seconds of fire on a leviathan from something without the "super" classification isn't even going to really scratch the leviathan.
> That same picture from before is fire from ships well below anything the Leviathan would smush with bio-plasmids or just a casual slap.
> Outside of that, I'm not sure how well they're going to be aiming or firing while being pulled against their will through space.
> it seems like the sort of thing that messes up your aim



Like I mentioned in one of my much earlier posts. Even a far weaker Victory-class Star Detsroyer (well below Venators and Imperial/Tector classes) can output hundreds of teratrons by channeling all of their reactor output into their guns in a single barrage. Also actually remembering, there's a feat where 4 Star Destroyers accidentally exited hyerspace while still at lightspeed velocities and crash into a Super-class Star Destroyer and the warship tanks it.



> could screw palps depending on how careful the zerg are.
> They did have the terrans thinking there was no hivemind or overarching leader for a while just to let them lead them to targets with psychic potential after all(and... probably for the fun of fucking with them and the protoss in all honesty.).
> either way if Palps could make an ally of the zerg I imagine he'd have absolutely no problem doing it. a force of horrifying monsters he can use to wipe out troubling planets without any suspicion aimed towards the empire whatsoever? It must be his birthday.



I don't know about that. Palpatine is incredibly paranoid about things or people that could betray or fuck with him in the first place, that's why so many powerful official end up getting murdered or assassinated in the first place. As for screwing him over, doubtful. He'll happily sacrifice a few planets or star systems to better study and understand how the Zerg operate.

Worst case scenario the Ones step in, if they were still alive at this point, I mean. But I really doubt they'd be necessary at all here given Palpatine and Vader's strength.



> Neither surprising nor above what the terrans have naturally encountered.
> Zerg Virus did that to the entire population of Meinhoff in a matter of days, and that was just testing a half-done new strain of it.



This was just some unnamed viruses/plagues, we don't know more then any vague articles given in what we got from the Essential Guide to Warfare guidebook.



> Okay, how does it liquidate them?
> Regardless...
> they don't need to breathe Organically.
> They can do it to add energy to their muscles, but zerg are generally anaerobic hybrids.
> ...



Only certain Zerg species don't breathe/respirate. I know Mutalisks and Behemoths were already able to survive in space and didn't require oxygen to breathe or respire. But plenty of cinametic cutscenes show various things like Hydralisks, Zerglings, distinctly breathing though.

Also which one are you asking for? Krytos or the one that even got to Palpatine?



> so it attacks by causing necrosis... except Zerg come back from total necrosis with just a bit of aid, so not really a problem.
> as for aggressively attacking "cell by cell": The zerg already have a large portion of their own cells devoted to attacking anything abnormal. it's part of their weird evolutionary process. Their cellular structure is ornery and fights itself, improving the entire time.
> this is also ignoring the fact they regenerate at an incredibly rapid rate and have their own micro-organisms in the form of hive spores.
> zerg virus already changes ridiculously and is carried by all existing cells, and has caused far more serious effects, so I'd give it the edge here. The Zerg deal with viruses all the time and even if it managed to hurt their cells they'd just use that as a way to create a new petri dish.
> ...



Necrosis is the side effect, not the cause. Krytos virus specifically aggressive inhibits cellular regeration or growth, destroying immune systems, inoculating themselves to the target's own chemistry and worst case scenario forcing the victim to destroy themselves with their own auto-immune system. Kyrtos is also constantly evolving and mutating into various other strains, so its impossible to neutralize which is why its such a big deal. It can't be suppressed, can't be vaccinated against, can't be stopped. 



> again, not really much for feats here.



Its simply worth mentioning.



> 300 wookies would lose to a zergling in a fight so I don't find the dosage that impressive to be honest compared to the physical ability of the things they'd be infecting, that already have ridiculous bio-weapon protection.
> These are building to town level physical powerhouses that can take a bath in the same amount of radiation that'd almost instantly kill a human and feel fine. and that's just for the ground strains.



a) I doubt that
b) Trixhexalon literally turned them into goo. Its been noted they can simply use them in small quanties as a warhead attached to a delibvary device to wipe out entire planet's biomasses.



> Zerg are pretty experienced in neural parasites. there's a reason they made one that allows for near-instant mind control when they hit things with it. none of these viruses appear to even surpass what they've managed to make with their own experiments in terms of actual effects.



Its not an actual parasite.



> Not really sure what to even think about blackwing Virus given I wasn't given much details other than "it was a threat" and "it was made with the dark side.".
> ignoring the fact it'd have pretty damn little to work with given how much it actually takes to kill a zerg and leave a corpse(Zerglings have quite a few showings of fighting past losing over half their body mass, and it's apparently a little known fact that Ultralisks have continued a charge unbroken while missing two of their legs), they mainly... Rescuscitate a corpse and use it's knowledge? and create a hive-mind?
> Blackwing's getting crushed if it tries to mess with the biological protocols already in a zerg body, more likely than not.[/quote
> 
> ...


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## AgentAAA (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Looking at the larger size version it seems more like an eruption then one of those beams going through it.


you can see the beam on the other side of the planet and it doesn't change in overall size.
not saying it can't be just an eruption, but I find it very unlikely given how well it matches the beam we started with.





> This was a super powered special turbolaser designed to hit from Borleias system to the Coruscant system to replicate an illusions of the power of the Death Star's superlaser to fuck with the Vong psychologically. They were going pretty fucking fast relative to said turbolaser firing. It took only a second or two from it to travel from the Colonies region to the Core region where the Coruscant system is while the beam was in transit.
> 
> 
> Definitely well above relativistic at any rate.


Given regular turbolasers should be blitzing starfighters, I find that one a little strange, though to be honest you haven't defined exactly what the starfighters were doing, just what speed the laser is here.



> That's what I was making clear.




Possibly, maybe. Cannons and turrets and even batteries all have different roles. Batteries are meant to deal with starfighters and act as point-defense weapons systems to shoot down missiles, torpedoes, and enemy fighters. Hence why they are rapid fire while cannons and turrets are meant to bombard planets, bases, or other warships.




> Its pretty impressive when said starship I'm talking about it a civilian one with no military tech and said feat was done by it unshielded.


It's really nothing to relate directly to stats though, especially since it being a civilian feat doesn't translate smoothly to how it affects more military vessels. 
If we were to use the "only civilian tech" argument, the terrans have civilian laser drills that are around 150 kilotons on the ground, the ability to planet-bust by accident with terraforming tech, and the ability to destroy country-sized asteroids with mining explosives.
when even the average mutalisk is hitting hard enough to damage high teraton to petaton armor, it doesn't matter how casual the Kilotons feat is.


> Small starfighters or analog equivalent dodging heavy fire from capital ships isn't really surprising given they move too fast for heavier weapon systems to traverse or fire in the first place. And in any case these are dedicated AA weapon emplacements, dunno shit about battlecruisers' own laser battieres in Starcraft but starfighters tend to get pounded by these things. Even a glancing hit is usually enough to vaporize a shielded starfighter like an X-Wing with its deflectors at double strength.



Starfighters in SC are able to take some hits from both eachother and cruiser laser batteries. they're not going to live through a full volley but a couple hits don't put them down, and they give as good as they get most of the time.
Something like five vikings and three wraiths was capable of giving serious pause to a battlecruiser like the hyperion, and the Hyperion's >>> standard battlecruisers (Though this may have been more of a worry regarding how much damage they'd take as a result, rather than worrying about losing outright.).

When choosing whether to focus on eight starfighters or the battlecruiser behind them is a serious decision... I'd lean towards saying fightercraft are much closer to capital vessels in firepower than their SW equivalent.
it should be noted that the one time we see a viking in action in the manga, it's capable of tanking a full volley of missiles from it's predecessor, the Wyrm(which should be comparable if not superior to the wraith) directly to the face while completely undamaged, along with a timed natural gas explosion and a few other pot-shots.

Battlecruiser batteries are considered pretty highly accurate against all targets. they don't appear to be dedicated either way. it should be noted that Mutalisks have no problems dodging through basically a hail of battlecruiser fire which is pretty goddamn rapid itself. they also have over a dozen torpedo launchers(likely firing plasma torpedoes but it's never been specifically stated so no clue for sure).



> I severely doubt Zerg are tanking being with less then 1000 kilometers of a neutron star which was done by two unarmed smuggler starships. Just to explain why this is a big deal, when Han had to rescue his ex from being destroyed, he had to fly within a closer range to said neutron star as her starship was pulled in. Gravity at that range with a neutron star is about 200 million m/s², or 20 million g's of acceleration force. Not even getting into the electromagnetic interference and radiation. Similarly we have ISDs sitting Nkollon's upper atmosphere that's so close to its own star that the described information given is the equivalent to the Earth being in close proxomity to the inner corona of our own star.


While I will fully admit that I'm a bit of an idiot when no one converts that to tonnage, I'll point out I don't even need to really think about this one.
Motherships are comparable to leviathans and can very comfortably sit in low orbit of a neutron star. When one mothership's khaydarin core failed, another mothership was capable of casually picking it back up afterwards, resisting the strain of the star.
Admittedly, both had their Khaydarin core fail, but it was an unrelated issue due to a flaw in the design of the crystals(basically considered a billion to one accident), not due to the strain on them.
given motherships are planet level, not sure how that'll work.



> Palpatine won't get infected. Weaker Force-Users have resisted petrification and lol nopped transmutation powers straight up, so I'm not seeing that happening.


Infection and transmutation are different things, 



What do you mean?




> Between the universes? So its not a separate universe but rather a connected reality or dimension then, at least that's the gist of what I'm getting.


in this case, it's a bit difficult to explain, but apparently SC doesn't follow common multiverse theory.
instead, new universes are created one by one, with the void an in-between place the Xel'naga(and other aberrations like The Voice In the Darkness) live.
when a new universe is created(which is apparently referring to a physical universe rather than a seperate time-space continuum if I'm understanding it correctly), the xel'naga go there and seed it with life. because for some reason the Xel'naga can't make babies... or something... they forge two races to become the next Xel'naga via intermingling. In this case, it's the zerg and the protoss. they also make a bunch of random other life throughout the overall universe, and then they quietly... just wait, I guess. it's not really clear what they do at that stage of the life-cycle normally.
Either way, the new xel'naga eventually go to the void in between different universes, get ready to seed the next one, and lather, rinse, repeat.
until Amon and then Kerrigan fuck it all up.



> That sounds like an issue to me is what I'm saying.


I've agreed there's issue there.
It's an inconsistency that requires reconciliation.
there's very little data to work with either way.



> Tractor beams don't have anything to do with lightspeed jumps ignoring what's being tractored is going to be hauled into hyperspace with the lightspeed accelerating vessel in question. And I should mention this, its standard protocol for military warships in the Empire to have dozens of pre-loaded jump routes in their navicomputers in the case of disaster or defeat so it saves time and lives already being prepared to escape instead of having to set them up manually. I don't think a Viper grabbing a large Imperial warships as it jumps into lightspeed is going to be beneficial for it.


was referring to the idea of them shooting it with tractors or etc.
though I'd ask if lightspeed jumps or even the ship itself would work well being smacked through space like that.
either way they have bio-plasmids to shoot from leviathans for a reason.




> Like I mentioned in one of my much earlier posts. Even a far weaker Victory-class Star Detsroyer (well below Venators and Imperial/Tector classes) can output hundreds of teratrons by channeling all of their reactor output into their guns in a single barrage. Also actually remembering, there's a feat where 4 Star Destroyers accidentally exited hyerspace while still at lightspeed velocities and crash into a Super-class Star Destroyer and the warship tanks it.


Super-class might be above leviathan, but hundreds of teratons is kiddie shit to a Leviathan.
Depends on if we scale them to or around the motherships baseline planet level.



> I don't know about that. Palpatine is incredibly paranoid about things or people that could betray or fuck with him in the first place, that's why so many powerful official end up getting murdered or assassinated in the first place. As for screwing him over, doubtful. He'll happily sacrifice a few planets or star systems to better study and understand how the Zerg operate.


zerg starting numbers will end up being in the hundreds of billions of warriors, and when they were invading the dominion, they were losing planets by the hundreds in just a few days.



> Worst case scenario the Ones step in, if they were still alive at this point, I mean. But I really doubt they'd be necessary at all here given Palpatine and Vader's strength.


To be fair Ones aren't in this scenario.
Though this'd honestly not be the worst set-up for a fanfic, not really what's being discussed here right now.




> This was just some unnamed viruses/plagues, we don't know more then any vague articles given in what we got from the Essential Guide to Warfare guidebook.


I was referring to all the viruses brought in.
the zerg don't always do biological warfare and most of the time it's because they don't have to, but when they decide to there's not very much you can do about it.
even the NBC protection of marine suits doesn't seem to do much.




> Only certain Zerg species don't breathe/respirate. I know Mutalisks and Behemoths were already able to survive in space and didn't require oxygen to breathe or respire. But plenty of cinametic cutscenes show various things like Hydralisks, Zerglings, distinctly breathing though.


Zerglings have a hybrid system where they can and do breathe when they're able to. it's not outright required, however, but supplementary, with their bodies able to go without a bit of oxygen for at least 24 hours.
Hydralisks probably do too given we constantly see them in space without atmosphere, and hatcheries/creepsupplement everything they need to live anyways.

Also which one are you asking for? Krytos or the one that even got to Palpatine?[/quote]
either.
in the latter case I'd ask how he's stopping it. if that's regen then that should definitely go on the profile.




> Necrosis is the side effect, not the cause. Krytos virus specifically aggressive inhibits cellular regeration or growth, destroying immune systems, inoculating themselves to the target's own chemistry and worst case scenario forcing the victim to destroy themselves with their own auto-immune system. Kyrtos is also constantly evolving and mutating into various other strains, so its impossible to neutralize which is why its such a big deal. It can't be suppressed, can't be vaccinated against, can't be stopped.


Krytos constantly evolving and mutating doesn't really help when the zerg virus already infecting their cells already does this while creating regen above anything Krytos has dealt with before.
"can't be suppressed, can't be vaccinated against, can't be stopped" is basically a giant NLF and given it doesn't have feats of hitting anything with near the immune system of the zerg I am certain they're not going to do anything. Even if they manage to infect the zerg, that's not necessarily a good thing - the zerg regularly weaponize infections given to them. Defilers had parasites and corrosive spores living inside their body so they could weaponize them. Creep has weaponized and reverse-engineered viruses built specifically to do the exact same thing to it to kill it. The Corruptor's flight method is literally electro-magnetic cancer. They've managed to create an acid that simultaneously can dissolve a terran marine while regenerating the vitality of a zerg creature right next to them.
These are creatures capable of making a relativistic flying creature that can turn itself into plasma, can heal so fast that their internal organs constantly melting to neo-steel eating acids doesn't faze them, an overlord that can liquefy it's internal organs at will, regrow them just as fast, and feel no real harm regardless. Five of the main zerg creatures in Heart of the Swarm are creatures that let themselves get infected on purpose in order to reverse-engineer and weaponize exotic disease.
Krytos has feats of infecting some humanoid aliens, and with less spread, resilience, or infection count compared even to the zerg experiment on Meinhoff.



> Its simply worth mentioning.





> a) I doubt that


a single zergling would have no problems hitting each of them with multiple tons of force and without weaponry I don't see them hurting something that shrugs off impaler spikes, has the capability of ripping a siege tank open like a tin can, and is fast enough to blitz the average wookie.
The zergling would have absolutely no problem eating any amount of featless wookies.



> b) Trixhexalon literally turned them into goo. Its been noted they can simply use them in small quanties as a warhead attached to a delibvary device to wipe out entire planet's biomasses.


so does proximity to a Noxious ultralisk. in less than a second. Or Roach/baneling discharge.
warheads might be annoying but it's not like they can't detect them or shoot them down either.



> Its not an actual parasite.


Okay so what form of infection is it?



> Unless Zerg drain life like the Sith and dark siders do, I have a hard time imagining their going to resist this at all.


Doesn't matter. they still need to actually grab them in their tentacles hard enough to stop them and not get crushed by the angry Ultralisk they decided to piss off. You know... the things that shrug off nukes.



> Not sure how that qualifies as "hax" exactly here.


Disease in general.
ignoring that, the Xel'naga are responsible for seeding the entire SC universe with them by design having been to another previously seeded universe in their lives. so they should have the feats to prep a race to deal with one galaxy, even if it does mostly come down to Amon himself.
it should be noted there is apparently some esoteric part of their biology going off of their primal zerg ancestry. they were able to absorb the "Essence" of slain opponents in order to dynamically change in a couple seconds depending on what was absorbed. this same basic quality's considered to be part of the Zerg swarm and was part of their original genome apparently, so it's not strictly genetic manipulation but some general combination. Absorbing ursadon bio-essence allowed them to immediately give all their forces on Kaldir cold immunity, for instance.



> Is this supported in fluff/lore? Because I only remember this being a gameplay mechanic to explain its effect in Starcraft II.


it apparently slows zerg bodily function and was part of why the overmind was actually suppressible by the UED(In order to allow the psi disruptor to work properly). Though it probably wouldn't work to the same extent on anything that wasn't the second overmind(which is considered basically "in name only" b interviewers and was more or less just an emergency way for the cerebrates to maintain their existence). though that was sigma radiation + a bunch of other UED drugs, who by hype might be at or above the Empire's level(Metzen mentioned that the United Earth Federation at home probably includes things "Uber-tachyon weapons and giant planet destroying railguns")

if it appears in text statement it's not really a gameplay mechanic. it apparently messes with their metabolism if emitted just right.



> Assuming the Zerg ever get Force sensitivity, why wouldn't they wander toward the dark side? Being a conglomeration of violently aggressive carnivorous life that operates on a hive-mind of destroying and consuming everything else means they will be instantly involved with the dark side. The more twisted the being or entity is, the more they become enslaved to the dark side, and when it comes to things like the Zerg, well that's how the Star Wars galaxy ended up possessing Terenteks.


They do like assimilating everything, but it is in a fairly machine-like manner, and more importantly, end up mentally reflecting whatever they see.
it helps they're not actually "power-hungry" in the traditional sense. The zerg understanding and modus operandi is that flexibility and consistently changing is far more important than just power. They have a directive to obtain the DNA of the protoss in order to become "perfect", under the overmind, but under Kerrigan it's a bit different. If you're looking for specific quotes I'd have to dig them up, but the zerg's main goal, according to Abathur, is whatever the leader at the time says it is.
also, not really important, but zerg are Omnivorous as a whole. the creep eats everything and they eat creep.



> Seems a lot bigger then the Starcraft universe. Also the Empire controls almost the entirety of the known galaxy, which is a hell of a lot more then the Korpulu Sector.


even ignoring the fact the Protoss owned one eightth of the universe, with many of their planets outside of the Koprulu, the Zerg didn't even start there. Even ignoring the fact they ate a path to the koprulu they also had deep space probes going out looking for new species to infest. The Mantis screamers, that the Mutalisk was adapted from, are a prime example of something they infested in a different sector of the galaxy.
As earlier stated, they were also given the directive to scour all life by Amon, one of the Xel'naga who have travel between galaxies and seeded a large amount of the life forms in the current universe so there is that(though not all of it, admittedly. Humans at least are a completely random happenstance, among others.)



> I'm not seeing how the Zerg are dealing with the Blackwing, Krytos, or any thing that can potentially harm Palpatine.


because they have feats above that level of biological engineering easily?



> Maybe, maybe not. The fact that War Coordinators are a hell of a lot more impressive then the Cerabrates and Broodmothers and have extremely powerful telepathic and psychic abilities on par with a strong Force-User utilizing battle-meditation, which leaves the Zerg quite vulnerable to being mentally taken over. Same with the World Brains, which are even more advanced and powerful variants of the War Coordinators.


What are the War Coordinators feats? Zerg Broodmothers ain't no joke. they do have an advantage from being genetically built with the ability to specifically command zerg.
Cerebrates don't really come into it too much but it should be noted their psychic force was enough that them talking to someone else while in a terran's presence could nearly kill said person. Broodmothers > the average cerebrate



> Doubtful.png


give a reason other than "I don't think soooo"




> Even if true you also have psionic emitters in Starcraft I which fucked with the Overmind and Cerebrates control several times to disaterous effects on the local broods.


The Emitters?
I'm not sure if you don't mean disruptors.
The Psi emitters that the Confederacy used to attract zerg didn't quite work in the fashion they actually thought they had. Because they required people with psionic potential to fire, and because the overmind really wanted to capture potent psychics, he allowed his broods to go after them. it also made it seem like the zerg were easily controlled which helped him troll the shit out of people and fool them into thinking the broods had no command structure, or at least an easily managed one.
bit of an odd plan but it helped he had the forces to spare, it gave the zerg access to psychics in the open, and in the end he just wasted a few billion zerg he could replace in a day in exchange for Kerrigan.
In brood war, on the other hand, the second overmind was fuckable with using psychic signals, and due to the Overmind's unique biology could even overrule creatures with greater psychic power like Kerrigan due to his particular strain, but it mainly worked because the second overmind was a laughable facsimile of it's original creator.
it's also notable the UED and terrans have a lot more feats in this area of actually being able to mechanically replicate psychic power(in the case of the disruptor: The emitter just amplified one's psychic ping). it'd be the Star wars equivalent of being able to manufacture the force. not sure what feats the Empire has to replicate that.



> Dunno about the resurrection power but Kerrigan isn't really comparable to Sidious when it comes to telepathy. I think we've had this debate before but a Zerg mind isn't as advanced as a human or sentient being's own one. As for other Force powers, Vader hits pretty hard in the biggatons himself, and is no slouch.


Give me some feats mang.
Kerrigan creates a planet-spanning storm when she starts to exist in her primal form and even a twilight archon has a feat of a continent-sized psi storm. this isn't biggatons feats with effort. this is hilariously above just about everyone. this is killing people with similar scaling for days straight in assumedly the dozens.
getting rid of the same fleet that just purified that planet would be well within her abilities.
I've already stated she's > Sidious, but she's close enough he'd have to get up out of his chair.



> I'm not sure what more you want to do here except go in circles in.


frankly I want you to give me a reason the viruses would work other than "they're pretty good".



> They aren't as spread out as you think. Reserve forces are called reserves for a reason, especially in the Inner Rim, Core, and Deep Core regions which are the heartlands of the Empire's military force and industrial capabilities. Remember, just the first Death Star alone volume wise was the equivalent of building 24 million Imperial-class Star Destroyers in secret. Which it did with little effort, that's the kind of logistics we're talking about here.


If I recall correctly the DS was actually quite the industrial marvel due to how tough it was on the budget.



> Kuat is located in the Deep Core. Assuming the local whatever planet that gets infested in the ass end of the galaxy even knows of what world's we're talking about here, blindly attacking a heavily fortified planet like Kuat would be utterly suicidal. The defense force at Kuat is equal to that of Coruscant's roughly which includes multiple dreadnought class warships (analogous to Vader's Executor), an even an entire sector force just for its system as well as the orbital rings being heavily fortified with a shit ton of gun and weapons emplacements and a literal screen of missile and gun platforms.
> 
> Absolute suicide if they attack Kuat right off the bat.


they can wormhole ground forces in and ignore a lot of that, to be fair.



> I'm aware of that yes. So basically when Imperial scientists do the same what the Zerg are going to end up doing is giving the Empire stuff like upgraded armor for their infantry for example.


...maybe?
The problem I can see with that is two-fold.
Firstly, Stetmann is a prodigy. Dominion science teams working for years relentlessly on understanding zerg biology have failed to manage what he can do in days. in backstory, his first military project with dominion resources was working on replicating protoss shielding, and he managed to accelerate the project to a ridiculous extent until he realized the corruption he was working with.
This is a dude who basically accelerated military hardware by several decades on a shoestring budget, with inconsistent access to samples, in a tiny lab on a battlecruiser, to the point the terran dominion had to steal from him to keep up.

not entirely that surprising given that depending on Canon Swann also made the thor and things like that, but it says something about his scientific feats in the area.

The other reason is just different tech-base. aside from the fact Stetmann found very specific things to upgrade/create, a lot of it was dependent on the Terran's very modular and easily changed technology to make it budgetable. it also ended up having a lot to do with stuff like their rail projectile technology, bunker designs, etc. which SW doesn't even bother with.

not sure how plasteel armor'd benefit from zerg biology anyways, really.



> Not sure what you mean by this. He can make multiple Force Storms, and have them converge on the same target or separate different ones altogether. The largest ones have destroyed a moon, wiped out entire fleets, and even caused large scale devastation and damage to the surfaces of planets and can raze planets on their own. It was still taking years for areas of Coruscant to recover from his last Force Storm.


I meant that creating a force storm wouldn't necessarily cancel out the pre-existing wormhole.
you'd just have both of them sitting in the same space.



> RoTJ Luke > RoTJ (prime) Vader.
> Luke even post-4 years after RoTJ in The Courtship of Princess Leia eventually surpassed Gethzerion whose stornger then Vader at his best.
> DE Luke >>>>>>>>>>>>>> TCoPL Luke.
> 
> DE Luke is quite possibly stronger then RoTJ Palpatine. I really don't think she'd hold up here.


he's more than a guy who's more than a guy who should still be firmly below Kerrigan. not really helpful.
Well, unless you can actually scale him to RotJ palps. I've already stated Kerri probably loses to him except in Xel'naga form(VitD Was going to casually mindfuck the whole galaxy and was still way below her paygrade.), but DE luke vs. RotJ Palps might be a battle worth putting in the OBD too for the sake of tiering purposes.



> I'm certain if Palpatine wanted to possess her (not that he'd need to, he'd still have a host of viable clone bodies that haven't been sabotaged yet) he could.


I completely agree which is why I wonder why you'd go after a defenseless babeh and be an infant for any amount of time.
Leia has dat higher force power potential shared with luke to my knowledge though. Albeit I'm not sure if that was even established canon at the time.




> Explain further.


More or less, they are zerg star destroyers. They're able to make their own wormholes for travel, wipe out fleets of battlecruisers, actually tangle with Protoss motherships 1 on 1, and during combat can pop out eggs for mutalisks and brood lords.
their primary attacks seem to be with a mix of their giant tentacles, that can easily smash through shielding and the like, and are considered much higher up in tier than a behemoth/minotaur class battlecruiser or even a protoss carrier/gorgon battlecruiser.
One of their main attacks appears to be attacking with a rapid, constant volley of what appear to be scourge swarms(said creatures are capable of blitzing gorgons and their point defense systems depending on range), along with a "bio-plasmid discharge" which shoots a large ball of what seems to be a type of biological matter really fast and in-game can one-shot a battlecruiser. all of these things scale to average purification/yamato stats, with Bio-plasmid having the hype to be compared to mothership firepower depending on how you take their tussles with one in lore.
they're capable of holding hundreds of thousands of zerg and have the ability to fire sacs of zerg units at planetary surfaces, along with more unconventional things grown mid-battle(Abathur quickly improvised an artillery structure and shot down pods containing the develop-able structure in the battle of Korhal).
Their official sizing is located in this chart(warning: Giant as fuck picture):




> Dunno about the resurrection power but Kerrigan isn't really comparable to Sidious when it comes to telepathy. I think we've had this debate before but a Zerg mind isn't as advanced as a human or sentient being's own one. As for other Force powers, Vader hits pretty hard in the biggatons himself, and is no slouch.


Alright, even if we ignore the fact that the one time protoss freed a group of zerg from the hive-mind, they formed their own miniature society and were legitimately planning on travelling off-planet, which isn't something a non-sentient can do, and that they are generally considered sapient, there's still the fact that "just an overlord" confirms all overlords are sentient and all queens are definitely sentient.


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## Nevermind (May 10, 2016)

Maybe OP should discriminate between separate scenarios.

With EU I have to go wit the Empire, it's been done a lot of times before and the result was always the same.

Disneywars maybe the Zerg.


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## AgentAAA (May 10, 2016)

Nevermind said:


> Maybe OP should discriminate between separate scenarios.
> 
> With EU I have to go wit the Empire, it's been done a lot of times before and the result was always the same.
> 
> Disneywars maybe the Zerg.


I'm actually of the opinion currently that empire's favored in EU, just that they have a slight chance /10 or /100.

Disneywars to my knowledge don't really have a chance. An earlier thread of Disney Republic and CIS ended with it being a stomp in the Koprulu sector's favor overall when they were still missing a significant chunk of the feats that have been found since.


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## Kaaant (May 11, 2016)

Gonna just post the galactic empire's industrial capability in the legends and Disney canon. Because the empire is that awesome.

Gonna use the number's given by this website to calculate:






> The second Death Star is estimated to be 1,072,000,000,000,000 tonnes at a low end. And according to one source I saw the second Death Star was completed in just six months.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I want to mention that this is only considering the industrial potential of the resources put into the construction of the second Death Star, it doesn't consider other manufacturing planets like the Mon calamari homeworld and such. And the cost? At least one quadrillion credits, but if the empire forced every planet under its jurisdiction to pay towards it it'd cost around 14,000 credits per planet. Compare that with Luke's shitty speeder at the start of ANH costing around 2000 credits. Also apparently according to the wikia the military budget for the imperial military is in the quintillions.

The empire's troop size is pretty damn impressive if you consider the fact they don't use droids and clones on a large scale anymore, or encourage women and aliens to join the military.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kaaant (May 11, 2016)

Might even be much higher if you consider a nation with a fraction of the manpower, money and resources took only 11 years longer than the empire did to make starkiller base.


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## Fang (May 11, 2016)

IIRC the Empire did use a shit ton of war droids they took from the Confederacy after they liquidated the Trade Federation, Banking Guild, and soon after the Clone Wars ended. Don't forget Death Star II was literally built in secret with just Xizor's company mainly supplying the parts, labor, and transportation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kaaant (May 11, 2016)

The tax rates in the Republic were 15% of your earnings iirc. The empire are dicks and doubly so towards non humans so it'd probably be a lot higher. Either way if you consider Coruscant supposedly has one trillion people on it (which we both agree is probably a decent lowball), if the population payed 1000 credits per head- half the cost of an outdated speeder on a desert planet, they'd fund the Death Star right then and there.

And it depends how we consider anything Karen Travis writes (lol) but the construction of the second clone army was only in the billions of credits as a cost, and even the Kaminoans refused to construct anymore unless they were given some billions up front. That shits getting funded numerous times over on a scale never before seen. 

The imperial military has stringent and just plain ridiculous standards for enrolling into the military as it is, and just the military (not the navy) alone has hundreds of trillions of soldiers. Stormtrooper cadets have to kill five others just to qualify and even then it's not guaranteed they'll pass out.


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## Fang (May 11, 2016)

I guess I missed this calc from EM on a Victory-class Star Destroyer outputting low to mid level petaton firepower.


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