# Hokage Minato vs Prime Nagato?



## Mad Scientist (Jun 11, 2020)

20m, ic, reputation, konoha crater, no gedo mazo. 

Who wins, how and what diff?


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato will receive the same traitement as Tobi.


Minato take this, hight diff.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## J★J♥ (Jun 11, 2020)




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## trocollo (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato will be tagged by a mark / attack since he can't counter FTG while Minato is able to counter his arsenal

I'm not good in evaluating the diff, but at these levels should always be high diff regardless of who wins, I guess?


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## Kyu (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato, low diff.

The first ST will break every bone in Minato's body.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Draco Bolton (Jun 11, 2020)

Deva power win. Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei are very effective against FTG (Nagato probably know Minato is a FTG user).

Shinra Tensei can repel all the kunais and destroy the ground (that Minato can having marking). Chibaku Tensei core attract every all inorganic matter. So trying to launch tagged kunai away (in order to escape via FTG) is useless, they're will be attracted again to the core. The ground will be destroyed and attracted (so no markings), Minato will be carried on rock (like Naruto, Bee, Itachi, NaruKyuubi) to the CT core and then will end up compressed, killed.

Only way to avoid to be trolled by CT is to tagg Nagato before that. But Nagato can repel Minato away with instantanous strong ST (Minato will be badly hurted) then he launch CT.


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## Sloan (Jun 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Nagato will be tagged by a mark / attack since he can't counter FTG while Minato is able to counter his arsenal
> 
> I'm not good in evaluating the diff, but at these levels should always be high diff regardless of who wins, I guess?



Why can't he counter FTG?  Once he realizes Minato is Teleporting to his kunai's he'll blast them all away with Shinra Tensei.


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## Raiken (Jun 11, 2020)

Right boys...


Every time Minato tries to attack Nagato, he's risking getting hit by the "instant" Shinra Tensei, it is generally a very hard attack to dodge/counter if you're already mid attack. Nagato's defense counters Minato.

*If Minato somehow manages to bypass Shinra Tensei*, Nagato has Preta Path for Rasengan's & Asura Path if he tries Taijutsu or Kunai.
As displayed by his ability to simultaniously use Human Path on KCM Naruto & counter B with Asura Path.

He can also use Summons to support him in battle, continually being on Minato's case, also adding to his shared field of vision for any blindsides Minato might attempt.

Chibaku Tensei also completely fucks up Minato's Battlefield Kunai layout if needed. But Shinra Tensei alone could do that.

Minato is fast, but he's not so fast that he can just blitz Nagato, and if he can't blitz him, Nagato has the Jutsu's and abilities to counter and eventually hit Minato with an attack and injure him.
________________________________________________________

Prime Nagato as seen in Canon High Diffs this due to lack of mobility.

Add full hypothetical mobility, Nagato Mid Diffs.

Either way *Nagato wins*.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Jun 11, 2020)

Sloan said:


> Why can't he counter FTG?  Once he realizes Minato is Teleporting to his kunai's he'll blast them all away with Shinra Tensei.


Cause it's not effective, he's displacing the kunai not countering the telportation, the kunai can be replaced or relaunched in the 5 sec interval, plus they'll not be blown away since if they are on the ground they will just be pushed alongside it 
And you're also not considering that with rep knowledge he has no counter to the first teleportation who can already result in a mark placed or a hit landing


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## Sloan (Jun 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Cause it's not effective, he's displacing the kunai not countering the telportation, the kunai can be replaced or relaunched in the 5 sec interval, plus they'll not be blown away since if they are on the ground they will just be pushed alongside it
> And you're also not considering that with rep knowledge he has no counter to the first teleportation who can already result in a mark placed or a hit landing



So Minato is going to teleport to each individual Kunai and pick them back up once they get displaced?  That is not effective for Minato either it’s a waste of Chakra and Nagato has way more than Minato does.  If that keeps up he’ll die of chakra exhaustion.

I’m sure Nagato knows how Shinra Tensei works, he’ll use it in an angle that blows them away.

How come he has no counter to the first teleportation?  I think he has a good chance.  In character he starts with summons.  He’ll have more eyes and shared vision.


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2020)

Shared vision is the ideal counter to FTG; and ST can be used in conjunction with it to beat Minato. Since I don’t see Nagato even needing his strongest techniques; Nagato should take this Mid-Diff, at worst High, but there is a gap in ability here

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato wins. People don't realize Nagato is quite invincible, he has the perfect defense (Shinra Tensei, Gakido Bareer). Can also fly around using his summons, has pretty much no blindspot, can close the distance in a fight using Banshou Tennin, can instantly kill you using Ningendo, and can regrow limbs if he's too injured (Shurado). Minato is not winning this.

Reactions: Like 5


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## trocollo (Jun 11, 2020)

Sloan said:


> So Minato is going to teleport to each individual Kunai and pick them back up once they get displaced?  That is not effective for Minato either it’s a waste of Chakra and Nagato has way more than Minato does.  If that keeps up he’ll die of chakra exhaustion.
> 
> I’m sure Nagato knows how Shinra Tensei works, he’ll use it in an angle that blows them away.
> 
> How come he has no counter to the first teleportation?  I think he has a good chance.  In character he starts with summons.  He’ll have more eyes and shared vision.


While he just needs to launch a bunch of them and not all I don't get were you found that Minato now is so limited in teleporting himself, like are you suggesting that he has only 20 or so FTG uses per battle?

Nagato knowing how shinra tensei works doesn't let Nagato do something that shinra tensei can't do, the move acts like a repulsive force with the center in Nagato, why whould he able to change it in a different force?

What is he going to do with more eyes now that he's in his real body? He has already sensing, isn't more easy to just argue for that?
Anyway, shared vision (but also sensing), don't help aganist an istanateous movement so don't get how you want it (them) to counter it


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## ARGUS (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato mid diffs


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## Sufex (Jun 11, 2020)

On paper it is possible for minto to wn, but i see nagato taking it majority of the times. Therefore illl pick nagato high diff when i really mean nagato most times but minato could extreem diff


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## Sloan (Jun 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> While he just needs to launch a bunch of them and not all I don't get were you found that Minato now is so limited in teleporting himself, like are you suggesting that he has only 20 or so FTG uses per battle?
> 
> Nagato knowing how shinra tensei works doesn't let Nagato do something that shinra tensei can't do, the move acts like a repulsive force with the center in Nagato, why whould he able to change it in a different force?
> 
> ...



I don't remember saying he only had 20 FTG uses per battle?  Furthermore does 20 FTG uses sound like a low amount to you?  Does 20 Chidori's in a battle sound low?  How about 20 Daikodan's?  20 Rasengans? 20 Tailed Beast Bombs?  That is not a low number of uses for a single Jutsu, especially someone who wasn't hailed or praised for their high volumes of Chakra.

He can literally crouch down so the shockwave isn't so forcefully trajected to the ground.  If you think that still won't cut it he can use Bansho Tennin to lift the Kunai's in the air than Shinra Tensei them.  

How wouldn't it help?  If he teleports behind Nagato for example he'll know that he is their(Since the summons are granted Rinnegan vision) and won't have to use pure instincts like Killer Bee to counter it.  Nagato can also fly, it's way more inconvenient for Minato to throw Kunai in the air repeatedly than to have a fixed destination around the terrain and environment.  The tables are stacked against Minato imo


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 11, 2020)

The other realms will be taken care of no problem but how does C/T work because it’s so instantaneous, if he can teleport out of his range after having marked Nagato he could for sure win , but if he gets caught by C/T and it prevents him from teleporting he is obviously going to lose as he has nothing that can bust him .


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## trocollo (Jun 11, 2020)

Sloan said:


> I don't remember saying he only had 20 FTG uses per battle?  Furthermore does 20 FTG uses sound like a low amount to you?  Does 20 Chidori's in a battle sound low?  How about 20 Daikodan's?  20 Rasengans? 20 Tailed Beast Bombs?  That is not a low number of uses for a single Jutsu, especially someone who wasn't hailed or praised for their high volumes of Chakra.
> 
> He can literally crouch down so the shockwave isn't so forcefully trajected to the ground.  If you think that still won't cut it he can use Bansho Tennin to lift the Kunai's in the air than Shinra Tensei them.
> 
> How wouldn't it help?  If he teleports behind Nagato for example he'll know that he is their(Since the summons are granted Rinnegan vision) and won't have to use pure instincts like Killer Bee to counter it.  Nagato can also fly, it's way more inconvenient for Minato to throw Kunai in the air repeatedly than to have a fixed destination around the terrain and environment.  The tables are stacked against Minato imo


I made a guess, I said 20 or so, since to me that seemed the number you were going for, you are free to just propose another one since even a 20 +/- 10 is better than discussing on: "not much", "quite", "an handlfull" etc...
It is a low number, you gotta scale things, 1000 rasengan / chidori are shit to a single juubi TBB
While Minato having or not bigger reserves isn't a point since you don't know how FTG is costly compared to other techs; anyway Minato has a lot of chakra, just the fact that he acquired SM means that he has *Link Removed*, but again doesn't even matter to us, since we don't know how much FTG costs, tho what we know is that size seems to be what defines the cost in chakra, now considering that Minato could teleport not only bijuu but also the juubi TBB who is much much bigger than a bijuu, I'll have to ask you, how many Minato you think you need to fill up a bijuu or a juubi TBB?

This can work actually, so Nagato can fight for the field control, for the BT strategy Idk how would work, like he's attracting the kunai to himself, then after 5 sec he pushes them? Seems suicide tbh

Reactions are the problem, Minato can telport with the arm already stretched to Nagato, hat he's gonna do? Vision or not vision it's too late
Nagato can fly, but not like a bird, it's steady-like


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## dergeist (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato low diff, there's some serious Asspullnato wank in this thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Nagato low diff, there's some serious Asspullnato wank in this thread.



What the hell @dergeist, you took reputation point again from me. It's not fair.


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## Sloan (Jun 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> I made a guess, I said 20 or so, since to me that seemed the number you were going for, you are free to just propose another one since even a 20 +/- 10 is better than discussing on: "not much", "quite", "an handlfull" etc...
> It is a low number, you gotta scale things, 1000 rasengan / chidori are shit to a single juubi TBB
> While Minato having or not bigger reserves isn't a point since you don't know how FTG is costly compared to other techs; anyway Minato has a lot of chakra, just the fact that he acquired SM means that he has *Link Removed*, but again doesn't even matter to us, since we don't know how much FTG costs, tho what we know is that size seems to be what defines the cost in chakra, now considering that Minato could teleport not only bijuu but also the juubi TBB who is much much bigger than a bijuu, I'll have to ask you, how many Minato you think you need to fill up a bijuu or a juubi TBB?
> 
> ...



Yea but he teleported the Juubi TBB as an Edo with forever regenerating Chakra so I don't count that as a feat for living Minato.  If he could use Sage Mode why didn't he use it against Obito?  The Danger sensing properties would have been an incredible help in that fight, considering speed and reaction was of the essence.  Maybe he learned how to do it when he was living but he could only effectively use it in battle as an Edo with regenerating chakra?  That's a good point about the size and level of chakra in said Jutsu.  He did Teleport a TBB from Kurama and Kurama himself while he was alive so he can probably use FTG a lot more than on that day against Kurama and Obito.  Regardless the scenerio we are talking about is repetitious and still not convenient for Minato.  I doubt Minato has more chakra than Nagato.  

He can deactivate Bansho Tennin if it's centimetres from piercing his body.  He's not going to just kill himself.

He can use a Shinra Tensei the moment he has vision of Minato.  

Which would still pose a problem even if he couldn't maneuver in the air like a bird, he also does have a Bird Summon he can ride on.  If 

The bolded also depends on where Minato's Kunai's are.  Didn't the enemy know about the FTG technique in the flashback?  If it's by reputation than Nagato should have knowledge and will be on guard.  Even if it's not explicitly the Jutsu and it's mechanics itself he knows Minato is super fast and will be on guard so right off the bat he'll use summons and probably take flight in the air so he can have an aerial view of Minato, allowing a minimal chance of a blind sided attempt.  Maybe Minato can try to counter this strategy by summoning GamaBunta and having him leap around.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato wins. ST trolls hard.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2020)

Sloan said:


> Yea but he teleported the Juubi TBB as an Edo with forever regenerating Chakra so I don't count that as a feat for living Minato.



On top of that, that was Minato who was a with infinite Edo chakra who was a Kyuubi Jinchuriki. So his chakra reserves were already enhanced by Kurama and ET gave him unlimited top ups.


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## trocollo (Jun 11, 2020)

Sloan said:


> Yea but he teleported the Juubi TBB as an Edo with forever regenerating Chakra so I don't count that as a feat for living Minato.  If he could use Sage Mode why didn't he use it against Obito?  The Danger sensing properties would have been an incredible help in that fight, considering speed and reaction was of the essence.  Maybe he learned how to do it when he was living but he could only effectively use it in battle as an Edo with regenerating chakra?  That's a good point about the size and level of chakra in said Jutsu.  He did Teleport a TBB from Kurama and Kurama himself while he was alive so he can probably use FTG a lot more than on that day against Kurama and Obito.  Regardless the scenerio we are talking about is repetitious and still not convenient for Minato.  I doubt Minato has more chakra than Nagato.
> 
> He can deactivate Bansho Tennin if it's centimetres from piercing his body.  He's not going to just kill himself.
> 
> ...


Having regenrating chakra doesn't mean that you have always infinite chakra, to execute a jutsu you need to spend the required chakra for it in one time, also to add to the infinite chakra thing, Minato exaust his chakra, he gets to the point he's not even able to teleport to Naruto (after the shunju tree traps him)
SM was useless aganist Obito, the moment he finished figuring out how Obito's jutsu worked he took care of him, so no need for it
The edo will still transform in a toad, again regenerating chakra =/= infinite chakra
Minato doesn't need to have more chakra than Nagato, again I'm not comparing quantities, Minato doesn't need to do more shinra tensei or summoning than Nagato does, I'm talking about FTG uses here, not Minato summoning Gamabunta 20 times lol

I meant suicide as is given Minato the ability to telport to a chosen kunai near him and he can't evn use ST to defend

What if Minato telports to him the same way he teported to yellow mask Obito? Or to rinnegan Obito? If Minato has already the arm stretched to tag Nagato, the latter can't make in time to defend

Not really since it's not clear what justu he can use while he's flying and for how much time he can fly, plus with the speed he has shown with that flight kunai in the air provide more versatility, for the bird summon he still has problems since it's much easier to tag and Nagato line of sight risks to get blocked by the bird he's riding, and Minato just needs to place a contract seal or mark the bird, to ruin Nagato's plans

What flashback? If you mean the fight with A&B they already had info on Minato, since it starts with them saying something on the lines of "So it's you who stopped our (as village) attempts to steal the fox?" So while A  and B was battling Minato for the first time they had info since Minato already fought kumo forces



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> On top of that, that was Minato who was a with infinite Edo chakra who was a Kyuubi Jinchuriki. So his chakra reserves were already enhanced by Kurama and ET gave him unlimited top ups.


Kurama's chakra enter in play just after, when all the hokage arrived
And also edo regen =/= infinite chakra, a jutsu needs a set amount of chakra to be casted you need to have that chakra when you wnat to cast it the justu doesn't take it as a debt and says "I'll take it later"


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## JayK (Jun 11, 2020)

I go with the dude who fought 2 enemies which are both individually already stronger than Nagato

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Grinningfox (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato wins mid diff 

 CT wouldn’t win it for him tho


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## dergeist (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> What the hell @dergeist, you took reputation point again from me. It's not fair.



It was such a bad troll that I couldn't let it slide.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

dergeist said:


> It was such a bad troll that I couldn't let it slide.



I was not trolling tbh, just saying who I think will win. Minato can avoid  every single attack from Nagato.

Shadow clone + Ftg will also be a good way for him to create opening to attack Nagato.

The sommon will also the useless against Minato who will just ignore them, and keep attacking Nagato via clones.

Also people seem to forget that ST need 5 seconds of preparation to be used again. It's not an autonomous attack.


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## dergeist (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> I was not trolling tbh, just saying who I think will win. Minato can avoid  every single attack from Nagato.
> 
> Shadow clone + Ftg will also be a good way for him to create opening to attack Nagato.
> 
> ...



Sure he can, we know Asspullnato's combat style is fodder. His hype is against fodders, against top tiers he's an average Joe. Heck even his superior Tobirama lost to 20 ninja, who Nagato would've clowned.

I have no time for fanfic, bye now


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## Reddan (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato wins this. He counters FTG with shared vision and ST, will hit Minato repeatedly.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Sure he can, we know Asspullnato's combat style is fodder. His hype is against fodders, against top tiers he's an average Joe. Heck even his superior Tobirama lost to 20 ninja, who Nagato would've clowned.
> 
> I have no time for fanfic, bye now




What many dont understand IS that Minato IS not even a fighter to begin but a killer. He dont share punch or show a Jutsu to see who is more cooler than another.

His Hiraishin+Rasengan or Hiraishin+kunai IS the best exemple of it.

Minato IS not that type of opponent who will try to counter CT, BT or ST, he will avoid everything with Hiraishin and Shadow clone and wait for the best momoent to tag Nagato.

If Minato IS against Nagato, he:

-wont Care about CT
-wont Care about ST
-wont Care about BT
-wont Care about Animal path

He will only Care about how to kill him. Because It's what Minato is an assassin.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 11, 2020)

Chibaku Tensei is quite useless in this fight. Minato can easily teleport out of the core's range if he has a marking.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

If Nagato use ST, Minato can literaly flash from the Battlefield into his home to take a rest of 5 minute, after marking all of Nagato's sommon by the way and droping some of his kunais in an area not too far from the batle field.

 Minato then go back 


 to complet his Killer job against a helpless Nagato who had not yet regenerate his chakra  from the extra use of ST.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato win only in thread but in character, Minato IS a Bad match for him with his Killer move Hiraishin. Basically one of the worst opponent Nagato could fight.


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## dergeist (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> What many dont understand IS that Minato IS not even a fighter to begin but a killer. He dont share punch or show a Jutsu to see who is more cooler than another.
> 
> His Hiraishin+Rasengan or Hiraishin+kunai IS the best exemple of it.
> 
> ...



Not really, he's only ever assassinated no name fodders. What you don't understand is the moment he's bmhit by 1 ST he ends up in worse shape than Shitnata. Even if he teleported away the damage isn't reduced since the GForce has already hit him. And Nagato is far stronger than Pain as Naruto confirmed, so amplify the power several fold. Asspullnato tries a sneak Attack is seen, Human path grabs him he FTGs away leaving his soul behind. Another way he gets negged. Even his mark is useless since Preta absorbs ninjutsu, he gets stomped back to where he came from

You can stan him all you like, but he's way out of his depth here


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

The only person out of God tier who Can without doubt susessfully stop Minato's Hiraishin and have Minato praise him IS this man.

*Spoiler*: __ 





The creator of Hiraishin himself *Tobirama Senju*, @t0xeus's fave.


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## Tri (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato wins pretty handily, Pain vs Minato is a closer matchup.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Not really, he's only ever assassinated no name fodders. What you don't understand is the moment he's bmhit by 1 ST he ends up in worse shape than Shitnata. Even if he teleported away the damage isn't reduced since the GForce has already hit him. And Nagato is far stronger than Pain as Naruto confirmed, so amplify the power several fold. Asspullnato tries a sneak Attack is seen, Human path grabs him he FTGs away leaving his soul behind. Another way he gets negged. Even his mark is useless since Preta absorbs ninjutsu, he gets stomped back to where he came from
> 
> You can stan him all you like, but he's way out of his depth here



I am not arguing With you, just pointing something out. Nagato IS extremely powerfull this is true. But the thing IS not that Minato IS as powerfull but he IS just a Bad match. In a fight against Minato, Nagato will run out of chakra without even touching Minato.

Basically Minato will start against Nagato and also end the fight with his chakra still close to at least 60%.

Shinra Tensei-  vanish

Basho Tensei- Vanish

Chibaku tensei - Vanish

Animal path- Gamabunta

Soul absorption-Vanish

Chakra absorption- Vanish

*Conclusion*: Nagato will wast easily 90% of his chakra in his attempt to catch and kill minato

On the other hand Minato can tagg Nagato with Shadow clone + FTG Kunais each Time Nagato fail with Shinra Tensei ( *Nagato need 5 seconds to use another CT*)


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato IS easily powerfull than Minato but he still loose against the later 100 time out of 1 because he IS the yellow Flash.

To kill Nagato, you need to be able to tag him in five second before he could cast another Shinra Tensei. And Minato just happen to be the Perfect for this case.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Kurama's chakra enter in play just after, when all the hokage arrived
> And also edo regen =/= infinite chakra, a jutsu needs a set amount of chakra to be casted you need to have that chakra when you wnat to cast it the justu doesn't take it as a debt and says "I'll take it later"



He still had the Jinchuriki seal. Edo regen = infinite chakra top ups. His base chakra got severely enhanced. He went from barely being able to teleport 100% Kurama after teleporting a Bijuudama to teleporting a Juubidama which is several times bigger than both.


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## trocollo (Jun 11, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He still had the Jinchuriki seal. Edo regen = infinite chakra top ups. His base chakra got severely enhanced. He went from barely being able to teleport 100% Kurama after teleporting a Bijuudama to teleporting a Juubidama which is several times bigger than both.


You're not proposing working methods, a jin seal doesn't give you chakra the bijuu does, and again were did you get that edo have infinite reserves? How is that even possible in the first place?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> You're not proposing working methods, a jin seal doesn't give you chakra the bijuu does, and again were did you get that edo have infinite reserves? How is that even possible in the first place?



He's still a Jinchuriki, dude. He did something his living self could not do, the difference: he is a Jinchuriki and he had infinite chakra top ups. 

Edo Madara told us.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato wins. ST counters kunai and itll break every bone. CT is not needed but would destroy him too unless he teleports out of battlefield. ST markings would get sucked up as well, and no h e can't throw a kunai to teleport out, otherwise Naruto would just shunshin out of it too.

Shared vision also counters FTG blindsides. No knowledge is also bad because ST means he'd get hit by 1 and that could mean death. 

and finally, Nagato already wrecked someone with godly speed in KCM naruto.

Nagato mid diff


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## Serene Grace (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato stomps lol, one ST will fuck Minato up

And no Minato is not blitzing Nagato with foot speed


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## Raiken (Jun 11, 2020)

Minato fans got a bit brave with this one. Good to see they've been pushed back. 

Justice has been done.


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## trocollo (Jun 11, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He's still a Jinchuriki, dude. He did something his living self could not do, the difference: he is a Jinchuriki and he had infinite chakra top ups.
> 
> Edo Madara told us.


The TBB feat doesn't even demotrates that the edo have infinite chakra, you can call it retcon at best but I'll have to remember you that Minato had to keep Kurama inside the seal before that battle, for how much time did he do that? And how much chakra required Minato to stop Kurama from exiting? Who knows, according to edo feats a lot, if you don't belive it was a factor then call it retcon, but surely doesn't mean that edo have infinite chakra, or that just being a jinchuriki gives you extra chakra even without using the beast
Also, what top ups even means?


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> Minato fans got a bit brave with this one. Good to see they've been pushed back.
> 
> Justice has been done.



Nagato win in thread alone. In reaiity he loose to Minato.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 11, 2020)

Unpopular opinion based on the poll, but Minato wins this.  Minato with a clone can dismantle Nagato's entire arsenal.  CT?  SImply toss a kunai at the core and warp it away.  ST?  He might get hit, but even a strong ST did little damage to Bee and Naruto.  If Nagato uses it, and Minato sees it, he will decipher it as Kakashi did.  Probably faster tbh.  He will then repeat the process by tossing a kunai, getting it deflected..then you know what, simply tossing another kunai but this time with V2 Hiraishin..then that's a blitz.  If Minato uses a clone it will be even worse for Nagato.  Summons?  Well, I see Minato using his own summons or eventually getting a contract seal off.  Yes, contract seal should work seeing as how all Nagato's summons had the rinnegan possession eyes.  

TLDR: Kunai toss -> gets deflected -> kunai toss V2 this time while 5 seconds = blitz.


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## Raiken (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Nagato win in thread alone. In reaiity he loose to Minato.


Cmon brah, you know it ain't the truth.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> Cmon brah, you know it ain't the truth.



It's not just true but fact.
Nagato will loose kicky against Minato. Speed IS very important to defeat Nagato. And speed IS what Minato is know for. It's the reason he IS know as *the yellow Flash*.

Like someone pointed out 

BS, TS, CT is avoided by Hiraishin.

Seal contract negg animal path

Shadow clone GG + Hiraishin level 2 IS enough to negg Nagato.


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## Trojan (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Nagato win in thread alone. In reaiity he loose to Minato.




tbh, I saw your name as the last poster, I thought "let's see what stupid shit he might say and I will smack him with a dislike"

but I was pleasantly surprised 
conflicted on how you place Minato below a fodder like Tobirama while at the same time put him above Nagato, but a pleasant
surprise nonetheless. 


you deserve some rep


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## Raiken (Jun 11, 2020)

Ma boi Nagato > Minato & Tobirama.


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## MajinBuu (Jun 11, 2020)

It's hard to judge. Both have a large fanboy base. Prime Nagato would surely have been invincible but we must not forget that he was Obito's underling ...

 For Minato we don't know his powers, none of his Uzumaki seals, we haven't seen his hiraishin stage 3 technique. Neither his SM

I think the two are equal with an avzntage for Nagato but not thanks to its CT / ST, more thanks to the fact that it can take devastating blows and survive like the lariat
...


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Nagato will receive the same traitement as Tobi.
> 
> 
> Minato take this, hight diff.



Chakra absorption says hi.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> Ma boi Nagato > Minato & Tobirama.



I only know Three people who can put down Minato out of God Tier: Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama the creator of Hiraishin himself.

Anyone else IS fodder to Minato. To make this fight a fair one Nagato will need to stoll Tobi's kamui eye.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Chakra absorption says hi.



Totsuka Blade IS chakra based, same for Amaterasu. And Nagato was not able to stop any of them.

Hiraishin level 2 + Rasengan IS an attack way more fast that these Nagato will never active his absorption in Time.


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Totsuka Blade IS chakra based, same for Amaterasu. And Nagato was not able to stop any of them.
> 
> Hiraishin level 2 + Rasengan IS an attack way more fast that these Nagato will never active his absorption in Time.



That's because Nagato wasn't able to see the Totsuka Blade coming - at all. Nagato was *blinded *by a _shit ton of dust,_ cutting off his ability to see. *Kabuto's lack of knowledge about his sensory powers and lack of mobility* played a role as well. If chakra absorption isn't fast enough, the Rinnegan's repulsion powers should do the trick. Even when used by the Six Paths of Pain (who are much weaker), the technique seemed to be instantaneous. Minato also might take a lot of damage from it.


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## Trojan (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> I only know Three people who can put down Minato out of God Tier: Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama the creator of Hiraishin himself.


Tobirama was trashed by Kin/Gin please stop the nonsense. U_U


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> That's because Nagato wasn't able to see the Totsuka Blade coming - at all. Nagato was *blinded *by a _shit ton of dust,_ cutting off his ability to see. *Kabuto's lack of knowledge about his sensory powers and lack of mobility* played a role as well. If chakra absorption isn't fast enough, the Rinnegan's repulsion powers should do the trick. Even when used by the Six Paths of Pain (who are much weaker), the technique seemed to be instantaneous. Minato also might take a lot of damage from it.



Hiraishin 2 + Rasengan IS full Blize. Like Tobi who was not able to active his intangibility back in time, Nagato wont be able to active his absorption before it IS too late.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Hiraishin 2 + Rasengan IS full Blize. Like Tobi who was not able to active his intangibility back in time, Nagato wont be able to active his absorption before it IS too late.



Nagato's powers are more versatile than Obito's intangibility.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama was trashed by Kin/Gin please stop the nonsense. U_U



Kin/Gin posess something worst that Hiraishin, Rikudo tools +Kurama chakra on top. 

Without the War arc's shitty writting they would never have Lost to Darui and some fodders.

In the case of Minato vs Tobirama. Hiraishin is Minato's Trump card against any opponent. If Tobirama dont know the move, he will be just another victime of Minato. But it happen that Tobirama dont just know it but he IS the creator of the Hiraishin. Which mean he probably know every single weakness of the move, and can counter it.

The worst case scenario will be for Tobirama to turn the Hiraishin against Minato himself and tag him via his own FTG Kunais. Reason why Tobirama IS a Bad match for Minato.

All this without taking Tobirama's own water manipulation, Shadow clone manipulation, Chakra, strenght and experience, and skill superiority into account.

That IS the deal for Minato against Tobirama @Hussain.


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## blk (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato wins mid diff, high at worst. 

Minato's only chance is, as usual, an FTG blindside to either tag Nagato or fatally strike him.

First thing is that it's extremely unlikely that Nagato will be ever caught off guard thanks to shared vision covering the blind spots and Chakra sensing locating Minato's position. 

Second, is that the moment Minato is located/seen he will be readily met by ST which is a strong counter to FTG used defensively.

This because FTG conserves momentum, therefore when Minato gets hit and jumps to a tagged spot his body will still smash to the ground of the tagged spot or Kunai.
So he also won't be able to come at Nagato before the ST cool down has ended.

So after a few exchanges where Minato gets pushed back, Nagato is likely to have understood how Minato's ability work and how dangerous he is.
He will also have understood that his other arsenal cannot hit Minato. 

Which means the next ST will be the "boss Summon" kind, which will completely break Minato's body and end the match.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Nagato's powers are more versatile than Obito's intangibility.


If so he should have been able to absorb Totsuka and Amaterasu.


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> If so he should have been able to absorb Totsuka and Amaterasu.



I already addressed why he couldn't absorb the Totsuka Blade. Kabuto didn't know how to use Nagato's powers. Nagato himself does, however. Amaterasu was blown away pretty quickly so I'm not sure what you're talking about lol, and it was used by his ally so he wasn't even *expecting *it. In a normal situation, the Rinnegan would see it coming due to the chakra buildup.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> I already addressed why he couldn't absorb the Totsuka Blade. Kabuto didn't know how to use Nagato's powers. Nagato himself does, however. Amaterasu was blown away pretty quickly so I'm not sure what you're talking about lol, and it was used by his ally so he wasn't even *expecting *it. In a normal situation, the Rinnegan would see it coming due to the chakra buildup.



See it coming, does not mean Nagato will be able to react to it in Time.


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## jesusus (Jun 11, 2020)

Minato has made contingencies for Asura after being warned by his Sensei about his 3 lifetime scars (Tsunade, kn4 and deep psychological trauma from Asura) .. This should push Nagato to mid diff.. But Jiraiya doesnt know about Shinra tensei or Bansho Tenin. Nagato will catch Minato off guard with that tech. RDS is the only way Minato can win but edo Nagato was pressuring KCM Naruto and B. Prime Nagato will win here. Not to mention Chibaku tensei which Minato has no firepower that can match FRS, Bijuudama and Yasaka beads if he even figures out to attack the core at first glance.


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> See it coming, does not mean Nagato will be able to react to it in Time.



It also does not mean Nagato won't be able to react to in time. His jutsu are _very_ fast.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

jesusus said:


> Minato has made contingencies for Asura after being warned by his Sensei about his 3 lifetime scars (Tsunade, kn4 and deep psychological trauma from Asura) .. This should push Nagato to mid diff.. But Jiraiya doesnt know about Shinra tensei or Bansho Tenin. Nagato will catch Minato off guard with that tech. RDS is the only way Minato can win but edo Nagato was pressuring KCM Naruto and B. Prime Nagato will win here. Not to mention Chibaku tensei which Minato has no firepower that can match FRS, Bijuudama and Yasaka beads if he even figures out to attack the core at first glance.



Edo Nagato IS a Bad argument. 

Prime Nagato wont posess the same power level and autonomous manipulation of the six path power as Edo Nagato .

Or that IS if you want to change this into a Edo Minato vs Edo Nagato.

If so Nagato loose even more harder.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Prime Nagato wont posess the same power level and autonomous manipulation of the six path power as Edo Nagato



What? I don't understand.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> What? I don't understand.



Edo Nagato had Access to endless chakra. So he was able to overuse his move against Naruto & Itachi & Bee. Without the Edo effect he wont be able to spam his jutsu like that against Minato, prime or not. 

Which mean prime Nagato IS more weaker than many think. Definitely not too far above pain.


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Edo Nagato had Access to endless chakra. So he was able to overuse his move against Naruto & Itachi & Bee. Without the Edo effect he wont be able to spam his jutsu like that against Minato, prime or not.
> 
> Which mean prime Nagato IS more weaker than many think. Definitely not too far above pain.



Lol. Endless chakra is completely irrelevant here, considering that Edo Nagato won't need much chakra at all to kill Minato. Just blast him with a powerful repulsion wave and he probably breaks every bone in his body lmao. As for ''spamming jutsu'', Nagato has far more speed and power in his techniques than the original Six Paths of Pain, who had PLENTY of chakra to go even after destroying Konoha. Chakra is not an issue for this dude, he's likely close to bijuu level as it is with moves like CT lol.


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## Trojan (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Kin/Gin posess something worst that Hiraishin, Rikudo tools +Kurama chakra on top.
> 
> Without the War arc's shitty writting they would never have Lost to Darui and some fodders.
> 
> ...


your points are retarded.

Tobirama created ET as well. Are you saying if Kabuto used his ET army against him
Tobirama will say "I created this jutsu, so I will win"

please, stop your foolishness. Thank you. U_U


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Lol. Endless chakra is completely irrelevant here, considering that Edo Nagato won't need much chakra at all to kill Minato. Just him with a powerful repulsion wave and he probably breaks every bone in his body lmao. As for ''spamming jutsu'', Nagato has far more speed and power in his techniques than the original Six Paths of Pain, who had PLENTY of chakra to go even after destroying Konoha. Chakra is not an issue for this dude.



Again such a move IS useless, Minato teleport himself, the moment he sense an invisible force try to punch him.

Also, ST IS an attack that need  an important chakra quantity, if Nagato keep spaming ST, he will just run out of chakra without even  damaging Minato


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Again such a move IS useless, Minato teleport himself, the moment he sense an invisible force try to punch him.
> 
> *Also, ST IS an attack that need  an important chakra quantity, if Nagato keep spaming ST*, he will just run out of chakra without even  damaging Minato



Minato can't sense invisible forces, I'm afraid. Even Sage Naruto couldn't sense this attack.

Also, who said Nagato has to spam it at all? Ignoring the fact he had _absolutely no problems_ doing so in Konoha even in addition to all the other shit he did, he only needs like 3-4 shots. One is enough to cripple the Fourth Hokage.


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Hussain said:


> your points are retarded.
> 
> Tobirama created ET as well. Are you saying if Kabuto used his ET army against him
> Tobirama will say "I created this jutsu, so I will win"
> ...



Tobirama could win against Kabuto with prap for his own seal to take control of the Edo.

What you say, Tobirama will never do, he already tryed it on Orochimaru.

He literaly state to Orochimaru that Edo Tensei IS useless against him and was preparing to move and go in War before he notice he cant.

The Orochimaru who performer the Edo Tensei against Tobirama posess some Hashirama DNA in himself and even absorbed some sage chakra from Kabuto. So Orochimaru's chakra level was powerfull enough to hold down Tobirama via Edo Tensei.

In a fight against Minato, Tobirama will try the same thing he try with Orochimaru, but this Time with Hiraishin. If Minato's chakra was powerfull than Tobirama's we could say that he could be able to stop Tobirama to conect to his kunai. But it's not the case there. Tobirama IS a senju so his chakra IS stronger that Minato's own. So he wont encount the same problem he had with Orochimaru.

The fight Can easily turn into a nightmare. After Tobirama manage to make it a Hiraishin vs Hiraishin batle.


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## Trojan (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> Tobirama could win against Kabuto with prap for his own seal to take control of the Edo.
> 
> What you say, Tobirama will never do, he already tryed it on Orochimaru.
> 
> ...


 

thank you & good luck


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Minato can't sense invisible forces, I'm afraid. Even Sage Naruto couldn't sense this attack.
> 
> Also, who said Nagato has to spam it at all? Ignoring the fact he had _absolutely no problems_ doing so in Konoha even in addition to all the other shit he did, he only needs like 3-4 shots. One is enough to cripple the Fourth Hokage.



He dont need to sense it, the same moment the force IS trying to send him fly  away, he will know that something IS off and will flash from that area to another. 

After that, he then prepare some clone to tag Nagato allong some kunai to find the ST's weakness.

Later, when he find out about the Time break between every ST from Nagato, he will prepare another attack but this time, right After a ST from Nagato who will have to wait some seconds to use ST again.

Then with Hiraishin+ Rasengan, he will easily Blize and kill Nagato.


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## t0xeus (Jun 11, 2020)

Nagato should win this with boss-toad-crippling ST or CT.


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> He dont need to sense it, the same moment the force IS trying to send him fly  away, he will know that something IS off and will flash from that area to another.



I don't think he's that fast, and by the time he reacts at all, it's likely he breaks a bone or two. Nagato can mess up the arrangement of kunai up with a big repulsion wave too, preventing Minato's teleportation from working very well.


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## MYGod000 (Jun 12, 2020)

Nagato mid diff this pretty easily.

He has way too much CT is  Game winner.

He can summon the paths of Pain even the animal Path which Minato will not be able to see which will just grab him.

anyway, if Minato somehow manages to destroy one of the pains, the outer path can just revive them.

No, Minato isn't escaping  CT...and he isn't destroying it either. It took KCM Naruto+TBB From Killer Bee+Itachi  just to destroy the Core of CT.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 12, 2020)

After thinking about it, I think *Nagato *wins.

It seems that people are *grossly* misrepresenting the exact circumstances of Nagato's loss to Itachi's team. Kabuto was in direct control of Nagato and *knew neither about the latter's lack of mobility nor his sensory powers*. The Rinnegan user _himself_, on the other hand, knows what _his_ strengths and weaknesses are - and can act accordingly. Never mind the fact that there was also a huge dust cloud obscuring the former Akatsuki leader's field of vision, preventing him from seeing Itachi's Totsuka Blade coming (and as mentioned before, having _Kabuto_ in control instead of himself ensured he would not be able to sense it either).

If Minato tries to litter the battlefield with teleportation kunai as he did against the Fourth Raikage, Nagato can almost instantly blow all the kunai far away with a massive repulsion wave, preventing Minato from ever reaching him through teleportation. If Minato ever _does_ get close to Nagato, he risks getting hit by an instantaneous invisible repulsion wave strong enough to shatter every bone in his body - one he has_ zero _way of sensing or being prepared for if neither Kakashi's Sharingan nor Naruto's Sage Mode could sense it coming. Rasengan gets absorbed and kunai stabs can be blocked by mechanical arms strong enough to restrain Killer Bee.

I like Minato more as a character, but I think he'd need KCM or intel to stand a chance.


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## Abyssdarkfire (Jun 12, 2020)

Didn't a young killer Bee react to FTG. Nagato would react then proceed to stomp!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 13, 2020)

Abyssdarkfire said:


> Didn't a young killer Bee react to FTG. Nagato would react then proceed to stomp!


I think Killer Bee just *ANTICIPATED *that Minato would be there... 
First, how would he react to a legitimate blindside since he's not a sensory-type ninja? You can't really react to something you can't see...


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## Abyssdarkfire (Jun 13, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> I think Killer Bee just *ANTICIPATED *that Minato would be there...
> First, how would he react to a legitimate blindside since he's not a sensory-type ninja? You can't really react to something you can't see...



If a Young Bee who is Vastly inferior to Nagato is able to anticipate this attack and put up a counter then Nagato counters and should body Minato.  ST or Asura tech counter wrecks minato.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2020)

Hussain might be able to make stronger points if he was as familiar with the manga/databooks/novels as he is with emojis.



trocollo said:


> The TBB feat doesn't even demotrates that the edo have infinite chakra, you can call it retcon at best but I'll have to remember you that Minato had to keep Kurama inside the seal before that battle, for how much time did he do that? And how much chakra required Minato to stop Kurama from exiting? Who knows, according to edo feats a lot, if you don't belive it was a factor then call it retcon, but surely doesn't mean that edo have infinite chakra, or that just being a jinchuriki gives you extra chakra even without using the beast
> Also, what top ups even means?



- It isn't a retcon when we know Jinchuriki get massive chakra boosts.
- Madara literally told us Edo Tensei provides unlimited chakra.
- Unlimited top ups means his chakra is constantly replenished.
- The Juubidama is bigger than 100% Kurama and his Bijuudama combined; Minato teleported the latter 2 and was pretty much out of chakra. We know he was a Jinchuriki which gave him a chakra boost.
- If anything, the "Kurama's chakra mixed with Naruto's for years" was a retcon since we learnt Naruto had latent body power chakra as Asura's transmigrant.

Minato's outmatched ITT.


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## trocollo (Jun 15, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - It isn't a retcon when we know Jinchuriki get massive chakra boosts.


Jinchuriki get a chakra boost when they use the chakra of the tailed beast not their own, there isn't a change in your own chakra level



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - Madara literally told us Edo Tensei provides unlimited chakra.
> - Unlimited top ups means his chakra is constantly replenished.


Ok so no infinite reserves, then we agree?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - The Juubidama is bigger than 100% Kurama and his Bijuudama combined; Minato teleported the latter 2 and was pretty much out of chakra. We know he was a Jinchuriki which gave him a chakra boost.


It's not from being a jinchuriki, there isn't a free chakra boost, there is your chakra and your bijuu's chakra



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - If anything, the "Kurama's chakra mixed with Naruto's for years" was a retcon since we learnt Naruto had latent body power chakra as Asura's transmigrant.


Not getting what you want to prove with this tbh, like you now agree that being a jin doesn't give you more chakra? But the above is still not the case, Naruto's seal was shifted and we see him using Kurama's chakra in some events (vs Haku, summoning gamabunta, vs Neji, etc.), but surely he also has big reserves beacause he's a trasmigrant and he's of Uzumaki lineage
Naruto can have bigger reserves for more than one reason


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Jinchuriki get a chakra boost when they use the chakra of the tailed beast not their own, there isn't a change in your own chakra level
> 
> It's not from being a jinchuriki, there isn't a free chakra boost, there is your chakra and your bijuu's chakra



Naruto got a chakra boost. Not according to Ibiki and Kakashi.



> Ok so no infinite reserves, then we agree?



That's virtually infinite, see Itachi.




> Not getting what you want to prove with this tbh, like you now agree that being a jin doesn't give you more chakra? But the above is still not the case, Naruto's seal was shifted and we see him using Kurama's chakra in some events (vs Haku, summoning gamabunta, vs Neji, etc.), but surely he also has big reserves beacause he's a trasmigrant and he's of Uzumaki lineage
> Naruto can have bigger reserves for more than one reason



However, we noticed through the feat Minato got a larger reserve and we know Jinchurikis get larger reserve not only because they swap with the Bijuu. The swapping is only the case with KCM.


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## trocollo (Jun 15, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto got a chakra boost. Not according to Ibiki and Kakashi.


Thanks to the fox's chakra, not to some free gift every seal gives, if he doesn't use the fox's chakra his chakra level is the same



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's virtually infinite, see Itachi.


That's an infinite that doesn't bother the feat, since Minato telported it away in one FTG casting, not two, not three



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However, we noticed through the feat Minato got a larger reserve and we know Jinchurikis get larger reserve not only because they swap with the Bijuu. The swapping is only the case with KCM.


They don't, jin have more chakra when they use the bijuu chakra, who is not only in KCM but also in tails mode


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Thanks to the fox's chakra, not to some free gift every seal gives, if he doesn't use the fox's chakra his chakra level is the same



KCM is the fox's chakra. Minato got a stamina boost due to Kurama's influence on his stamina. This didn't need proof, as it was an established fact. Why you still chose to contest this, I dunno.
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*




> That's an infinite that doesn't bother the feat, since Minato telported it away in one FTG casting, not two, not three



*Because he had extraordinarily high stamina due to being a Jinchuriki.*



> They don't, jin have more chakra when they use the bijuu chakra, who is not only in KCM but also in tails mode



I proved they did. Why I needed to prove an established fact and universally accepted fact that was known early in the manga, I dunno, but there it is. You're confusing that established fact with KCM as demonstrated by your description matching the process of entering KCM.


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## trocollo (Jun 15, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> KCM is the fox's chakra. Minato got a stamina boost due to Kurama's influence on his stamina. This didn't need proof, as it was an established fact. Why you still chose to contest this, I dunno.
> *Link Removed*
> *Link Removed*


I'm not contesting that edo Minato + fox has mora chakra than Minato
I'm contexting edo base Minato has more chakra than Minato
Your proof here is that Naruto with a leaking seal (and mentioned by you: being an Asura reincarnate) has enormous chakra and Kakashi adress this to the fox, this is all fine



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Because he had extraordinarily high stamina due to being a Jinchuriki.


His stamina is the same, just having a seal doesn't give you more chakra, you need to use the tailed beast chakra, but your stamina is your stamina



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I proved they did. Why I needed to prove an established fact and universally accepted fact that was known early in the manga, I dunno, but there it is. You're confusing that established fact with KCM as demonstrated by your description matching the process of entering KCM.


Didn't seem a proof to me, you're saying that since Kakashi sayid Naruto has a lot of chakra beacause of the fox then every jin of the fox is in the same boat as Naruto, who's not the case since we know Naruto has naturally large reserves and his seal is shifted


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2020)

trocollo said:


> I'm not contesting that edo Minato + fox has mora chakra than Minato
> I'm contexting edo base Minato has more chakra than Minato
> Your proof here is that Naruto with a leaking seal (and mentioned by you: being an Asura reincarnate) has enormous chakra and Kakashi adress this to the fox, this is all fine



Edo base Minato does have more chakra than Minato because he had Kurama. You're trying to say that the leaking seal is a factor; it isn't; him being a Jinchuriki was. Naruto's seal was tight and was even more tightened after the Pain Arc. Naruto's V2 form looked different due to being a transmigrant. However, Minato proved Kakashi right, he was able to transport the Bijuudama because he had more chakra due to Kurama's influence. We saw the limit of his chakra without the fox. 




> His stamina is the same, just having a seal doesn't give you more chakra, you need to use the tailed beast chakra, but your stamina is your stamina



As the manga said, being Kurama's Jinchuriki gave him more chakra. He went from being virtually out of chakra teleporting Kurama and his Bijuu dama to teleporting something several times larger than that without feeling the effects. Only feeling the effects after using Kurama's chakra in conjuction with Naruto to teleport the whole shrouded alliance. 



> Didn't seem a proof to me, you're saying that since Kakashi sayid Naruto has a lot of chakra beacause of the fox then every jin of the fox is in the same boat as Naruto, who's not the case since we know Naruto has naturally large reserves and his seal is shifted



Its written quite clearly, due to Kurama's influence Naruto has a lot of stamina. Nothing about his seal shifting.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## trocollo (Jun 15, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Edo base Minato does have more chakra than Minato because he had Kurama. You're trying to say that the leaking seal is a factor; it isn't; him being a Jinchuriki was. Naruto's seal was tight and was even more tightened after the Pain Arc. Naruto's V2 form looked different due to being a transmigrant. However, Minato proved Kakashi right, he was able to transport the Bijuudama because he had more chakra due to Kurama's influence. We saw the limit of his chakra without the fox.


Explain why, do you think just being a jinchuriki gives you more chakra even if you're not using the bijuu's chakra? How is this even possible?

I'm not contesting anything about Naruto's seal being closed back after pain's arc or Naruto's cloak looking different cause he was a trasmigrant (and actually it's not even the case unless you also thing Minato and Naruto's classmates were also trasmigrant?)
And anyway for what purpose did you mention these two things?

It's not a proof, Minato didn't start his fight at 100%, and even a retcon is a lot more probable rather than an impossible thing



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As the manga said, being Kurama's Jinchuriki gave him more chakra. He went from being virtually out of chakra teleporting Kurama and his Bijuu dama to teleporting something several times larger than that without feeling the effects. Only feeling the effects after using Kurama's chakra in conjuction with Naruto to teleport the whole shrouded alliance.


Ok this is the same as above



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its written quite clearly, due to Kurama's influence Naruto has a lot of stamina. Nothing about his seal shifting.


They'll say it way later, doesn't mean that it's false


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## hbcaptain (Jun 15, 2020)

It depends what you mean by Prime Nagato.

If it's the one who fought Hanzo in the flash-back (when Yahiko died), then Minato would most likely low diff him. The dude still had almost no mastery over his Dojutsu and his feats were kinda lacking.

If you mean Edo Nagato who regained his youth, then he wins.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Explain why, do you think just being a jinchuriki gives you more chakra even if you're not using the bijuu's chakra? How is this even possible?
> 
> I'm not contesting anything about Naruto's seal being closed back after pain's arc or Naruto's cloak looking different cause he was a trasmigrant (and actually it's not even the case unless you also thing Minato and Naruto's classmates were also trasmigrant?)
> And anyway for what purpose did you mention these two things?
> ...



Its literally said on the page, Bijuu's influence resulted in more chakra. We've seen Naruto's Jinchuriki chakra factor replicated with other Jinchuriki; we just know that it helped tapped into his latent power. 

The Jinchuriki comment, plus what we saw with the other Jin, plus what we saw with Minato's Jinchurikiless limits plus what we saw with Jinchuriki Minato's feat: the conclusion is obvious. Minato's stamina was enhanced.


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## trocollo (Jun 15, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its literally said on the page, Bijuu's influence resulted in more chakra. We've seen Naruto's Jinchuriki chakra factor replicated with other Jinchuriki; we just know that it helped tapped into his latent power.
> 
> The Jinchuriki comment, plus what we saw with the other Jin, plus what we saw with Minato's Jinchurikiless limits plus what we saw with Jinchuriki Minato's feat: the conclusion is obvious. Minato's stamina was enhanced.


Bijuu's influence needs to be able to influence to work, the bijuu's chakra needs to be used, Naruto used it, Minato didn't, you're saying there is some kind of passive boost but it's not the case, either you use the bijuu chakra or you don't, there's not a third kind of chakra


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Bijuu's influence needs to be able to influence to work, the bijuu's chakra needs to be used, Naruto used it, Minato didn't, you're saying there is some kind of passive boost but it's not the case, either you use the bijuu chakra or you don't, there's not a third kind of chakra



Or it needs to be within the Jinchuriki as Kakashi indicated; it was the case with Minato. The Bijuu's chakra needs to be used if the Jinchuriki wants to harness the Bijuu's power. Gaara was able to manipulate sand just because he was Shukaku's Jinchuriki and still can just because he was Shukaku's Jinchuriki. Gaara wasn't tapping into Shukaku's power until he was physically transforming into Shukaku, fully or partially. A boost in chakra comes with the territory.


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## trocollo (Jun 15, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or it needs to be within the Jinchuriki as Kakashi indicated; it was the case with Minato. The Bijuu's chakra needs to be used if the Jinchuriki wants to harness the Bijuu's power. Gaara was able to manipulate sand just because he was Shukaku's Jinchuriki and still can just because he was Shukaku's Jinchuriki. Gaara wasn't tapping into Shukaku's power until he was physically transforming into Shukaku, fully or partially. A boost in chakra comes with the territory.


Again not saying you can't use the chakra of your bijuu, but that you don't automatically have it like that, the seal seals the chakra to the point it's not even visible to the byakugan, Gaara had a different seal and his powers were even given to him pre-biju retcon/concept creation, here point is that Minato didn't use Kurama's chakra when he telported the TBB


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Again not saying you can't use the chakra of your bijuu, but that you don't automatically have it like that, the seal seals the chakra to the point it's not even visible to the byakugan, Gaara had a different seal and his powers were even given to him pre-biju retcon/concept creation, here point is that Minato didn't use Kurama's chakra when he telported the TBB



He doesn't need to use Kurama's chakra to gain the benefits like Kurama recovery and the standard Jinchuriki stamina boost. These are basic facts, the latter is clearly written, not sure what you're arguing.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 15, 2020)

Honestly, I think it comes down to Minato's willingness to enter Sage Mode.

As things currently stand, Nagato is actually quite well-suited to dealing with Minato's teleportation. If Minato tries to scatter kunai around the battlefield as he did against the Fourth Raikage, Nagato can immediately send a massive _Gravitational Push_ at both the Fourth Hokage as well as his kunai, blowing them far away as well as preventing the Fourth Hokage from even getting close to him. While Pain's weaker _Gravitational Push _was unable to kill Kakashi, the main body's version has been stated to be on a_ whole other level _and might be strong enough to harm (if not cripple) the Hokage. Besides, he could simply do what he was going to do against Kakashi anyway and fire a chakra rod or nail at the Yellow Flash that is amped further by _Gravitational Push _to guarantee the kill.

If Minato enters _Sage Mode _early on - not an unreasonable thing to do considering not only Nagato's fearsome reputation but that of the Rinnegan itself - he'd have a shot at victory. The enhanced durability of this mode would allow Minato to tank Gravitational Push and make his non-teleportation movements a lot faster as well. This not only increases his chances of getting close to Nagato via kunai (he can recollect the ones he already used) by itself but also gives him the opportunity to figure out the time limit for the former Akatsuki leader's jutsu. The Fourth Hokage can capitalize on this knowledge by using a teleporting shadow clone or two to trick him into using this technique early, before attacking him personally and subsequently blitzing him to death.

Reiterating what I said earlier, the fight can go either way. If Minato uses SM early, he wins. If not, he loses.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## trocollo (Jun 16, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He doesn't need to use Kurama's chakra to gain the benefits like Kurama recovery and the standard Jinchuriki stamina boost. These are basic facts, the latter is clearly written, not sure what you're arguing.


He needs to, Kurama recovery is given by Kurama's chakra and "standard" jin stamina boost is given by the tailed beast inside

You get this chakra if you open your seal in some way, we know Naruto's one was not completely closed, then we know nothing about the others, but even for Gaara he surely didn't enter his stages of BM with the seal closed, like Naruto, emotions helped in opening the seal and getting controlled


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 16, 2020)

trocollo said:


> He needs to, Kurama recovery is given by Kurama's chakra and "standard" jin stamina boost is given by the tailed beast inside
> 
> You get this chakra if you open your seal in some way, we know Naruto's one was not completely closed, then we know nothing about the others, but even for Gaara he surely didn't enter his stages of BM with the seal closed, like Naruto, emotions helped in opening the seal and getting controlled



Kurama recovery is given by just having Kurama just like the stamina. That's why Fukasaku said Naruto's SM recovery is faster with Kurama, why Naruto was healing.
*Link Removed* No chakra being used. I'm showing you panels from part 1, i.e. things we have known *early *in the manga. So I'm not sure what you're choosing to dispute. Especially when we saw living Minato's chakra limit and how that limit was vastly expanded when he was an Edo. You're choosing to say retcon rather than use the manga facts.

All that translated to was the KN0 forms, but you're holding onto that without considering the fact Naruto is a transmigrant and thinking that the leaking seal just means that Kurama's chakra just bonded with that. Hagoromo even cited Indra, Asura and Kurama like those 3 were important. The Gaara example automatically disproves you because without using Shukaku's chakra he was using sand, a Shukaku trait akin to how Naruto had recovery. Plus both Jinchuriki, along with other Jinchuriki, had a massive boost in stamina due to their Bijuu's influence and we see a direct feat change with Minato. 

The evidence is too strong for you to simply say "Minato didn't get a stamina boost". We can go into part one panels and all that, but the main thing you cannot, and still have not convincingly overcome is the feat change:
- living Minato virtually *ran out of chakra *teleporting 100% Kurama and his Bijuudama
- Edo Jinchuriki Minato was able to teleport a Juubidama which is several times bigger than both of those put together.

Diffrence, apart from Minato getting infinite Edo top ups, his chakra capacity *increased *due to having Kurama. We can't deny that based on the feats. If it gets to a point where you're needing to be reminded of manga facts from early in the manga, which are not contradicted by newer facts, then your stance needs to be re-evaluated.


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## trocollo (Jun 16, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kurama recovery is given by just having Kurama just like the stamina. That's why Fukasaku said Naruto's SM recovery is faster with Kurama, why Naruto was healing.
> *Link Removed* No chakra being used. I'm showing you panels from part 1, i.e. things we have known *early *in the manga. So I'm not sure what you're choosing to dispute. Especially when we saw living Minato's chakra limit and how that limit was vastly expanded when he was an Edo. You're choosing to say retcon rather than use the manga facts.
> 
> All that translated to was the KN0 forms, but you're holding onto that without considering the fact Naruto is a transmigrant and thinking that the leaking seal just means that Kurama's chakra just bonded with that. Hagoromo even cited Indra, Asura and Kurama like those 3 were important. The Gaara example automatically disproves you because without using Shukaku's chakra he was using sand, a Shukaku trait akin to how Naruto had recovery. Plus both Jinchuriki, along with other Jinchuriki, had a massive boost in stamina due to their Bijuu's influence and we see a direct feat change with Minato.
> ...


But it's not the case, and you wanna adress the increrased chakra point or not? Cause you always bring it up but I responded to it, but you still repat it as "Minato could teport something bigger so he has bigger reserves compared to his living self, so the bigger reserves are from being a jichuriki"
When it' not the case, here's my reponse from many posts ago that didn't get adressed:


trocollo said:


> you can call it retcon at best but I'll have to remember you that Minato had to keep Kurama inside the seal before that battle, for how much time did he do that? And how much chakra required Minato to stop Kurama from exiting?



You're passing the more chakra for the jin seal as the only option, while discharging that either Minato being already worked up or retconned are a possibility, this just to conclude an impossible choice who is that a closed seal gives you chakra, who again it's impossible since it's closed, you can do all the parallel you want with people who used the tailed beast chakra, but they didn't do that with a closed seal, the chakra of the beasts was used, Minato used Kurama's chakra when he entered KCM after that, not before


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 16, 2020)

trocollo said:


> But it's not the case, and you wanna adress the increrased chakra point or not? Cause you always bring it up but I responded to it, but you still repat it as "Minato could teport something bigger so he has bigger reserves compared to his living self, so the bigger reserves are from being a jichuriki"
> When it' not the case, here's my reponse from many posts ago that didn't get adressed:



Addressed already through a clear manga page. You conflated that with a description of how KCM works.



> You're passing the more chakra for the jin seal as the only option, while discharging that either Minato being already worked up or retconned are a possibility, this just to conclude an impossible choice who is that a closed seal gives you chakra, who again it's impossible since it's closed, you can do all the parallel you want with people who used the tailed beast chakra, but they didn't do that with a closed seal, the chakra of the beasts was used, Minato used Kurama's chakra when he entered KCM after that, not before



The retcon isn't the case because you're using 2 different things altogether. Having a Bijuu gives some benefits, like Minato clearly got, increased chakra capacity as all Jin get and some unique Bijuu ability (sand for Gaara and recovery for Naruto) and there's getting a chakra mode. You're confusing the former with the latter than pulling the retcon card while talking about a closed seal.


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## trocollo (Jun 16, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Addressed already through a clear manga page. You conflated that with a description of how KCM works.
> 
> 
> 
> The retcon isn't the case because you're using 2 different things altogether. Having a Bijuu gives some benefits, like Minato clearly got, increased chakra capacity as all Jin get and some unique Bijuu ability (sand for Gaara and recovery for Naruto) and there's getting a chakra mode. You're confusing the former with the latter than pulling the retcon card while talking about a closed seal.


Legit don't get this, you responded by returing to your point without adressing the possibility but again reiterating that there is a chakra boost, it isn't a response to Minato's chakra level possibilityes
It doesn't give benfits unless you use his chakra, so unless you open the seal, and even just a bit is enough, while with total control of the chakra you get in KCM, otherwise you can also get in tailed modes even without control over the bijuu's chakra bu getting possesed by it
As you see there is no confusion, bijuu's abilityes come from bijuu's chakra who the user needs to recive in order to use them


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 16, 2020)

I don't feel like addressing just addressing the obvious points, I'll address some other points ITT.



redboy776 said:


> If so he should have been able to absorb Totsuka and Amaterasu.



He could, but Kabuto was in complete control of Nagato's body as the manga made it clear. Madara, Kaguya and Jigen all absorbed Amaterasu on panel. Totsuka is just a chakra sword which part of Susanoo which Madara has consistently absorbed on panel when he needed to. Your argument would've held water if Nagato was in control and failed to do these things. Kabuto didn't know about Nagato's powers and failed to do these things; he thought Itachi sensed him and didn't know Nagato could sense.



redboy776 said:


> See it coming, does not mean Nagato will be able to react to it in Time.



It does, Nagato has shown impressive reaction feats as Pain, which itself is impressive as he's concurrently controlling six bodies, more if you count summons. Naruto said with his own body his jutsu are faster, going by Edo Rinnegan being weaker, a prime Nagato would be even faster. On top of that, he's Senju lineage, a Senju body, gives him another edge; even Hanzo said dodging his Katon was no small feat. There's _more than enough _to say he'll be able to react.


redboy776 said:


> Edo Nagato IS a Bad argument.
> 
> Prime Nagato wont posess the same power level and autonomous manipulation of the six path power as Edo Nagato .
> 
> ...



You're right, Prime Nagato won't possess the same power level and manipulation as Edo Nagato, he'll possess _superior _pwoer and manipulation to Edo Nagato. Your conclusion is wrong. Edo Minato is stronger than Hokage Minato, tho. Base Minato lacks the benefits of an Edo and being a Kyuubi Jinchuriki.



Windmaster Sam said:


> After thinking about it, I think *Nagato *wins.
> 
> It seems that people are *grossly* misrepresenting the exact circumstances of Nagato's loss to Itachi's team. Kabuto was in direct control of Nagato and *knew neither about the latter's lack of mobility nor his sensory powers*. The Rinnegan user _himself_, on the other hand, knows what _his_ strengths and weaknesses are - and can act accordingly. Never mind the fact that there was also a huge dust cloud obscuring the former Akatsuki leader's field of vision, preventing him from seeing Itachi's Totsuka Blade coming (and as mentioned before, having _Kabuto_ in control instead of himself ensured he would not be able to sense it either).
> 
> ...



True, that doesn't include the additional Ninjutsu hype Nagato has which counterbalances, if not supercedes, Minato's jutsu hype.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Honestly, I think it comes down to Minato's willingness to enter Sage Mode.
> 
> As things currently stand, Nagato is actually quite well-suited to dealing with Minato's teleportation. If Minato tries to scatter kunai around the battlefield as he did against the Fourth Raikage, Nagato can immediately send a massive _Gravitational Push_ at both the Fourth Hokage as well as his kunai, blowing them far away as well as preventing the Fourth Hokage from even getting close to him. While Pain's weaker _Gravitational Push _was unable to kill Kakashi, the main body's version has been stated to be on a_ whole other level _and might be strong enough to harm (if not cripple) the Hokage. Besides, he could simply do what he was going to do against Kakashi anyway and fire a chakra rod or nail at the Yellow Flash that is amped further by _Gravitational Push _to guarantee the kill.
> 
> ...



Minato's Sage Mode won't work. It takes Minato too long to enter Sage Mode and when he does enter it he can't maintain it for very long. He's not going to get the opportunity in this battle to gather NE for that long. Further, Naruto with superior NE skill struggled with a weaker variation of Nagato, and that was a Naruto that surpassed this version of Minato as a ninja. This Minato likely never mastered the things that would help him counter shared vision, Frog Katas. 

Also, Pain with shared vision was able to hold his own against Sage Mode Naruto to some extent and as a cripple he was able to hold his own against a V2 Bee to some extent. In his prime, he should be able to handle Minato- a blitz may not be in the picture. Bee without any special lineage wasn't blitzed, so Nagato with a Senju body likely wouldn't be.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 16, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Legit don't get this, you responded by returing to your point without adressing the possibility but again reiterating that there is a chakra boost, it isn't a response to Minato's chakra level possibilityes
> It doesn't give benfits unless you use his chakra, so unless you open the seal, and even just a bit is enough, while with total control of the chakra you get in KCM, otherwise you can also get in tailed modes even without control over the bijuu's chakra bu getting possesed by it
> As you see there is no confusion, bijuu's abilityes come from bijuu's chakra who the user needs to recive in order to use them



Opening the seal has nothing to do with the automatic boost in chakra he got. To use KCM he would need Bijuu chakra. To get the additional benefits such as recovery and a massive chakra boost, that doesn't necessarily require chakra. Gaara doesn't have Shukaku's chakra and he's still able to manipulate sand; Gaara's ability to manipulate sand came from Shukaku.


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## trocollo (Jun 16, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Opening the seal has nothing to do with the automatic boost in chakra he got. To use KCM he would need Bijuu chakra. To get the additional benefits such as recovery and a massive chakra boost, that doesn't necessarily require chakra. Gaara doesn't have Shukaku's chakra and he's still able to manipulate sand; Gaara's ability to manipulate sand came from Shukaku.


So where do you think the chakra for the recovery, and the chakra boost comes from? It's not from the seal since it's closed (even tho like we know it's not), so what gives to Naruto that chakra?
Why Gaara can't just have magnet relase like his father does? He could've also have just inherited it as he was used to it (similarly as how you can use susanoo without eyes)


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Minato's Sage Mode won't work. It takes Minato too long to enter Sage Mode* and when he does enter it he can't maintain it for very long. He's not going to get the opportunity in this battle to gather NE for that long. Further, Naruto with superior NE skill struggled with a weaker variation of Nagato, and that was a Naruto that surpassed this version of Minato as a ninja. This Minato likely never mastered the things that would help him counter shared vision, Frog Katas.
> 
> Also, Pain with shared vision was able to hold his own against Sage Mode Naruto to some extent and as a cripple he was able to hold his own against a V2 Bee to some extent. In his prime, he should be able to handle Minato- a blitz may not be in the picture. Bee without any special lineage wasn't blitzed, so Nagato with a Senju body likely wouldn't be.



Too long for Minato's (usual) preference, true. He still entered SM pretty fast when he needed to, so I don't think that's an issue. SM Naruto also doesn't have even Base Minato's teleportation speed (which was great enough to trump MS Obito's space-time Ninjutsu), and the Fourth Hokage has SM here to further back up his attacking speed lol. In fact, Naruto needed KCM to even begin being compared to his father, and the comparisons continued till BM. Safe to say there's a gigantic speed gap here.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Symmetry (Jun 17, 2020)

I didn’t even know this was a debate

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 17, 2020)

trocollo said:


> So where do you think the chakra for the recovery, and the chakra boost comes from? It's not from the seal since it's closed (even tho like we know it's not), so what gives to Naruto that chakra?
> Why Gaara can't just have magnet relase like his father does? He could've also have just inherited it as he was used to it (similarly as how you can use susanoo without eyes)



I think you're conflating the 2. Simply having the 9 tails present gives Naruto its attributes, one of which includes its massive chakra capacity. Magnet release lets Gaara control that sparkling metallic sand from the novel, not sand. Again, if you look at the manga it clearly tells you the third Kazekage modeled his use of magnet release from what he saw from _Shukaku hosts_. There's also the fact we saw Minato virtually hit his limit pre-Jinchuriki and go well beyond post-Jinchuriki; this is hardly a debate, tbh.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Too long for Minato's (usual) preference, true. He still entered SM pretty fast when he needed to, so I don't think that's an issue. SM Naruto also doesn't have even Base Minato's teleportation speed (which was great enough to trump MS Obito's space-time Ninjutsu), and the Fourth Hokage has SM here to further back up his attacking speed lol. In fact, Naruto needed KCM to even begin being compared to his father, and the comparisons continued till BM. Safe to say there's a gigantic speed gap here.



I would've agreed except Minato's statement threw a wrench in the whole thing. My guess, the moment Madara jumped in and Minato started talking about sensing NE, that's when he must've been gathering NE. Between Madara arrival and when he decided to attack, that's a long time in battle. Comparatively speaking, that's a lot slower than Hashirama and Naruto, and even slower than Kabuto.

MS Obito was trumped due to that particular circumstance where he was rushed due to Kurama's summing time limit as Minato mentioned. KCM being compared to Minato doesn't mean anything; it was saying Naruto was creating Yellow Flash level speeds at his top speed without teleportation. In other words, Naruto could _physically _react to situations Minato could not without teleporting. That's an indication of superiority. Take to one form backwards, Minato couldn't comfortably dodge A4's V1 when the latter tried to hit him (before he warped to Bee), yet SM Naruto easily outmaneuvered A3 who is just as fast. 

The speed gap wouldn't be as huge in practical battle. Otherwise, Minato would've ended Obito without too much effort with speed alone.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## trocollo (Jun 17, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I think you're conflating the 2. Simply having the 9 tails present gives Naruto its attributes, one of which includes its massive chakra capacity. Magnet release lets Gaara control that sparkling metallic sand from the novel, not sand. Again, if you look at the manga it clearly tells you the third Kazekage modeled his use of magnet release from what he saw from _Shukaku hosts_. There's also the fact we saw Minato virtually hit his limit pre-Jinchuriki and go well beyond post-Jinchuriki; this is hardly a debate, tbh.


I'm asking how you think it gives its "attributes", since as I see it Naruto's seal leaked and the fox's yang chakra gave Naruto healing and more chakra to use, same thing for Gaara, not getting why now you say that sand control is not magnet relase tho, what relase is it then?
Where the manga tells us that the third modeled his relase from shukaku and why does it matter? At best it tells us that magnet relase can be learned
Already addressed it, you can reply to me adressing it instead of rewriting again and again that Minato telported a bigger thing, or you want me to copy-paste my response every time you just add that to the end of your posts?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 17, 2020)

trocollo said:


> I'm asking how you think it gives its "attributes", since as I see it Naruto's seal leaked and the fox's yang chakra gave Naruto healing and more chakra to use, same thing for Gaara, not getting why now you say that sand control is not magnet relase tho, what relase is it then?
> Where the manga tells us that the third modeled his relase from shukaku and why does it matter? At best it tells us that magnet relase can be learned
> Already addressed it, you can reply to me adressing it instead of rewriting again and again that Minato telported a bigger thing, or you want me to copy-paste my response every time you just add that to the end of your posts?



Its presence within Naruto has an influence. You're placing too much emphasis on the seal leaking which is overridden by the Minato and Gaara examples we've seen on-panel. Sand control is Shukaku's attribute as regen is Kurama's. Magnet release is a Kekkei Genkai as the novel and manga tells us. 

It needs to be addressed as it is a vital point you're not getting. Minato's base chakra capacity literally got bigger; living Minato would have never been able to teleport that Juubidama. The difference: he was a Kyuubi Jinchuriki. We have a page where Kakashi mentioned a Kyuubi Jinchuriki's stamina levels were influenced by the Kyuubi. You're then talking about a leaking seal which was never linked to stamina at all. Seems like a reach on your part.


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## trocollo (Jun 17, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its presence within Naruto has an influence.


Sure, everything has an influence on everyone, I'm asking you what you think it's happening, how Kurama gives Naruto this special power without a chakra exchange, and if it's not from the yang chakra from were the healing factor comes from? Who created it?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're placing too much emphasis on the seal leaking


Like, what is the right amount of emphasis I should place on it? The seal is where the fox is contained, is what allows the connections of the chakra, I'm just saying either chakra passes or not



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> which is overridden by the Minato and Gaara examples we've seen on-panel.


May be the case for you but obviously it's not for me, ence we're having this discussion



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sand control is Shukaku's attribute as regen is Kurama's.


Ok, so you think:
Sand control is a totally new ability unrelated to the 5 nature relases?
Kurama has a special regeneration ability unique to him and that only he has?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Magnet release is a Kekkei Genkai as the novel and manga tells us.


Sure, tho what you said is that it can be learned? Like similarly to jinton?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It needs to be addressed as it is a vital point you're not getting. Minato's base chakra capacity literally got bigger; living Minato would have never been able to teleport that Juubidama. The difference: he was a Kyuubi Jinchuriki.


There is the problem that I'm not getting how is possible that a closed seal gives you more chakra, who brings the solution to the above in the retcon
Then there is the problem that there is another difference, this time he started the fight fresh
Unless these two points are solved I'm not going to get this, expecially if the first one isn't, no matter how many times you write Minato telported a bigger thing at the end of your post



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We have a page where Kakashi mentioned a Kyuubi Jinchuriki's stamina levels were influenced by the Kyuubi. You're then talking about a leaking seal which was never linked to stamina at all. Seems like a reach on your part.


But it's the case, in the same arc we have even have Naruto relasing more of that chakra and entering KN0, surely that's not also a special power of the fox?


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 17, 2020)

did the anime make ST look slow or smth?

why are peeps saying hes gonna teleport _during_ it, after hes been hit?


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 28, 2020)

Nagato rapes.

If Minato tries teleporting he ends up facing Animal Path that physically grabs via Asūra tools or one of it's summons, then Deva applies it's powers that either strangles him due to the opposing force (BT + ST in conjunction) or straight up shatters all the bones in his physicality.

Preta can't absorb the seals but it still can act like a physical barrier that blocks FTG assaults not that he could physically assault via shared vision to begin with.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Avatar Twilight (May 11, 2021)

Jeez I expected people to think Nagato would win when I came here, but I didn't think two thirds would say mid diff or lower. Minato has the strength to cut through Gyuki's tail, so getting through Nagato's asura path enhanced skin will be easy. And his speed is superior to Tobirama by feats implications and hype, who is stated by Madara to be the fastest shinobi of the time, and Edo Madara could react to KCM2 Naruto. Tobirama also has good feats against unfocused Juubito. Nagato meanwhile only scales to KCM Naruto. Yes he caught him rather easily, but that's because he caught him with the invisible chameleon. At best you can say he's somewhat superior to KCM Naruto speed, but this still doesn't even put him at KCM2 Naruto speed. He'd throw a kunai at Nagato and when Nagato dodges he teleports to it and slams a rasengan into him, which Nagato absorbs. Then Minato gets pushed away but what Nagato didn't realize is that Minato placed a marker on him so he teleports directly behind him and slashes his head off. GG. Minato wins mid-high diff.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Danisor (May 11, 2021)

Whoa, this is still going?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 11, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Minato has the strength to cut through Gyuki's tail, so getting through Nagato's asura path enhanced skin will be easy



Gyuki's tails are trash against any cutting attack. Asura resisted a RAIKIRI.


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## Charmed (May 12, 2021)

Edo Nagato would beat him easily let alone Prime Nagato.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 12, 2021)

Charmed said:


> Edo Nagato would beat him easily let alone Prime Nagato.



Nah.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 12, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Jeez I expected people to think Nagato would win when I came here, but I didn't think two thirds would say mid diff or lower.  And his speed is superior to Tobirama by feats implications and hype, who is stated by Madara to be the fastest shinobi of the time, and Edo Madara could react to KCM2 Naruto. Tobirama also has good feats against unfocused Juubito. Nagato meanwhile only scales to KCM Naruto. Yes he caught him rather easily, but that's because he caught him with the invisible chameleon. At best you can say he's somewhat superior to KCM Naruto speed, but this still doesn't even put him at KCM2 Naruto speed. He'd throw a kunai at Nagato and when Nagato dodges he teleports to it and slams a rasengan into him, which Nagato absorbs. Then Minato gets pushed away but what Nagato didn't realize is that Minato placed a marker on him so he teleports directly behind him and slashes his head off. GG. Minato wins mid-high diff.



Agree on everything here though.


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## Onyx Emperor (May 12, 2021)

Cerberus kinda solos, if Minato tps it away, Nagato just resummons it.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Avatar Twilight (May 15, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Gyuki's tails are trash against any cutting attack. Asura resisted a RAIKIRI.


Based on RINNEGAN OBITO cutting through them? Yeah, sure sounds like an anti feat to me...

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 15, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Based on RINNEGAN OBITO cutting through them?



Those same shuriken (only slightly smaller) failed to cut through Kakashi's mud wall.

Not sure how "Rinnegan Obito" changes the fact these are still mere shuriken that can be stopped by rudimentary defenses.


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## Avatar Twilight (May 15, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> Cerberus kinda solos, if Minato tps it away, Nagato just resummons it.


And how exactly does it touch Minato? Besides Minato doesn't even need to fight it, he can just kill Nagato and the dog disappears.


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## Avatar Twilight (May 15, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Those same shuriken (only slightly smaller) failed to cut through Kakashi's mud wall.
> 
> Not sure how "Rinnegan Obito" changes the fact these are still mere shuriken that can be stopped by rudimentary defenses.


I wouldn't say slightly. It's a pretty big difference. 

War Arc Kakashi's mud walls aren't rudimentary defenses. It's high kage level.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 15, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> I wouldn't say slightly. It's a pretty big difference. And him sending it flying from his kamui dimension could increase the travel speed.
> 
> War Arc Kakashi's mud walls aren't rudimentary defenses. It's high kage level.



Obito used his shuriken the same way against Kakashi as he did against Bee, and lol at thinking a maybe 2-3x size difference is the difference between cutting through a Bijuu and failing to cut through a fodder defense.

Yeah, they are rudimentary defenses. Kakashi isn't noted for the potency of his jutsu or high chakra levels. High Kage level my ass.


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## Avatar Twilight (May 15, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Obito used his shuriken the same way against Kakashi as he did against Bee, and lol at thinking a maybe 2-3x size difference is the difference between cutting through a Bijuu and failing to cut through a fodder defense.
> 
> Yeah, they are rudimentary defenses. Kakashi isn't noted for the potency of his jutsu or high chakra levels. High Kage level my ass.


yeah I checked it and edited it.

WA Kakashi has many high kage level feats like cutting through V2 jinchuriki and stopping Obito's fireball with that same fodder mud wall and fighting alongside 6 gates Guy and kcm Naruto. And are you really saying he doesn't have much stamina? Do people still not know about his bonkers stamina increase during the war?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (May 15, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> And how exactly does it touch Minato?


Uh, keeps chasing minato until he's tired?


Avatar Twilight said:


> he can just kill Nagato


Hahahahaha


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## Nikseng (May 15, 2021)

Nagato mid diff


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## Avatar Twilight (May 16, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> Uh, keeps chasing minato until he's tired?
> 
> Hahahahaha


Minato's stamina isn't gonna run out that quickly just from evasion.

Already explained it in post #116, laugh at me after you've read it.


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## Onyx Emperor (May 16, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Minato's stamina isn't gonna run out that quickly just from evasion.


Doggo looks tougher to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯





Avatar Twilight said:


> explained it in post #116


Oh boy, what did i step into.....


Avatar Twilight said:


> Minato has the strength to cut through Gyuki's tail


Any sharp weapon can do that


Avatar Twilight said:


> Minato has the strength to cut through Gyuki's tail, so getting through Nagato's asura path enhanced skin will be easy.


Not even remotely close, LOL


Avatar Twilight said:


> And his speed is superior to Tobirama by feats implications and hype


And this is heavily disregarded by actual manga panel feats since:


Avatar Twilight said:


> Tobirama also has good feats against unfocused Juubito.


And KCM(!!!!) Minato gets roflblitzed by him


Avatar Twilight said:


> At best you can say he's somewhat superior to KCM Naruto speed, but this still doesn't even put him at KCM2 Naruto speed


Do you have any proof of KCM2 being even 5% faster than KCM?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 16, 2021)

Wait. I'm agreeing with Baraggan?!

He's right about the sharp weapon part. Minato has never been noted for his strength and his kunai have no feats or portrayal to indicate they're that much stronger than average. 

@Avatar Twilight, none of that's proof Kakashi has high chakra levels though, only higher than what he had in the past. Both 10 and 1000 are greater than 0 but that doesn't mean they're remotely equal. The character has never been noted for his chakra levels or strength ever, be it in the manga or the Databooks. 

Raikiri is a much higher rank technique (S > B) and Kakashi's literal signature move of his main affinity (Raiton), it's not comparable to his mud wall. It's like comparing Sasuke's Katon to his Chidori or Kirin.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 16, 2021)

On the other hand, Minato was in a literal daze against Juubito according to DB4 and we know he is canonically Tobirama's superior in speed in base, so it's clear KCM Minato's underwhelming performance against Juubito needs to be taken with a grain of salt.


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## MHA massive fan (May 16, 2021)

Minato entire way of fighting is hard countered by nagato not needing to do anything but think to smack mianto away

shinra tensei is a very very hard counter to hirashin like attacks and with no cool down when Nagato is using his main body it’s a hilarious low diff win for NAgato

Nagato frankly will take on 3 minato’s and still win

@Illusory strange from a Minato fan boy no?


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## MHA massive fan (May 16, 2021)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He still had the Jinchuriki seal. Edo regen = infinite chakra top ups. His base chakra got severely enhanced. He went from barely being able to teleport 100% Kurama after teleporting a Bijuudama to teleporting a Juubidama which is several times bigger than both.


War arc inflation is a thing 
Hirudora went from not evaporating kisame to destroying V3 susanoo. Kisame whose body can be harmed by a Kunai


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## Troyse22 (May 16, 2021)

Mad Scientist said:


> 20m, ic, reputation, konoha crater, no gedo mazo.
> 
> Who wins, how and what diff?



It should be noted that Nagato (not pain) possesses the ability to ST independent of his own body. He can choose a space as the epicenter given his feats in the Naruto/Bee fight, granted the range of this ability is unknown.

Minato is just out of his league here. Pain vs Minato is a more balanced fight


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## Gin Ichimaru (May 16, 2021)

Minato would get pasted by Deva Path alone lol

the first ST breaks his body in two

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 16, 2021)

Pain couldn't even break Kakashi in two and now he's gonna break Minato in two, Minato who can even teleport away to reduce the impact hitting him.


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## Onyx Emperor (May 16, 2021)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> the first ST breaks his body in two


Didn't break Naruto's or Kakashi's bodies but will break Minato's? Why?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (May 16, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> It should be noted that Nagato (not pain) possesses the ability to ST independent of his own body.


This sounds like head canon


Troyse22 said:


> He can choose a space as the epicenter given his feats in the Naruto/Bee fight, granted the range of this ability is unknown.
> 
> Minato is just out of his league here. Pain vs Minato is a more balanced fight


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## Gin Ichimaru (May 16, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> Didn't break Naruto's or Kakashi's bodies but will break Minato's? Why?


because he's a stick

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Troyse22 (May 16, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> This sounds like head canon



He did it when Bee threw his sword at Itachi.

He used Itachi, or the space next to him as the epicenter and deflected it.


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## MHA massive fan (May 16, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> He did it when Bee threw his sword at Itachi.
> 
> He used Itachi, or the space next to him as the epicenter and deflected it.



Oh I get what you mean
My bad


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## Troyse22 (May 16, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Oh I get what you mean
> My bad



No worries, just so you know i'm not going to blatantly make up abilities with no basis  especially one like that which was VERY specific.


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## MHA massive fan (May 16, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> No worries, just so you know i'm not going to blatantly make up abilities with no basis  especially one like that which was VERY specific.


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## Onyx Emperor (May 16, 2021)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> because he's a stick


And this is based on....?


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## Gin Ichimaru (May 16, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> And this is based on....?


the fact tat he is a stick

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Onyx Emperor (May 16, 2021)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> the fact tat he is a stick


So baseless trashtalking

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Avatar Twilight (May 16, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> Doggo looks tougher to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> Oh boy, what did i step into.....
> 
> Any sharp weapon can do that
> ...


Seems like headcanon.

No any sharp weapon can't do that. If that was the case, Gyuki's tails would be cut all the time, but whenever he went on a rampage, only A3 and A4 were ever shown cutting Gyuki's tails. 

Based on what? Minato's strength is slept on a lot. With his rasengan, he also made a massive crater on the ground, not even touching it directly.

Yes when Minato was dazed from finding out his student was the masked man.

Him blitzing the 5 bijuudama when he first entered kcm2 like it was nothing? Being able to land hits on Obito when he couldn't before in kcm? It being a powerup overall with more chakra allowing him to amp his shunshin speed more?


Aegon Targaryen said:


> He's right about the sharp weapon part. Minato has never been noted for his strength and his kunai have no feats or portrayal to indicate they're that much stronger than average.
> 
> @Avatar Twilight, none of that's proof Kakashi has high chakra levels though, only higher than what he had in the past. Both 10 and 1000 are greater than 0 but that doesn't mean they're remotely equal. The character has never been noted for his chakra levels or strength ever, be it in the manga or the Databooks.
> 
> Raikiri is a much higher rank technique (S > B) and Kakashi's literal signature move of his main affinity (Raiton), it's not comparable to his mud wall. It's like comparing Sasuke's Katon to his Chidori or Kirin.


How about the fact that he's hyped up as a god among shinobi, one that Ay thought would never be surpassed? Keep in mind that Ay thought the ribcage Susanoo was a cute defense, one he cut through like butter. So since Minato is supposedly stronger than present Ay even as a Jonin (we haven't been shown them interacting as kage), it's fair to say he's a powerhouse

Alright I'm gonna link something that puts into perspective how amazing Kakashi's stamina is in the war arc. reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/6uese4/kakashis_insane_feat_speed_and_stamina_during_the/ Do you really think this is something someone with average stamina could do?

Sasuke's Katon still gets stronger based on how strong he is. A fireball from six paths Sasuke is gonna kill pretty much anyone he fires it at, despite the fact that it's a fairly basic jutsu, because he's just that strong. A similar thing is true of WA Kakashi, just on a lesser scale. 


Gin Ichimaru said:


> Minato would get pasted by Deva Path alone lol
> 
> the first ST breaks his body in two


No...a basic shinra tensei has never been shown knocking out a kage level opponent.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 16, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Seems like headcanon.
> 
> No any sharp weapon can't do that. If that was the case, Gyuki's tails would be cut all the time, but whenever he went on a rampage, only A3 and A4 were ever shown cutting Gyuki's tails.
> 
> ...



So no facts to back up your arguments, only some wonky DBZ style powerscaling (Minato > Ay4 so therefore if Ay4 can break Susano'o, Minato can too) and some dude on Reddit (ergo, a fan, not Kishi himself or one of his characters) arguing Kakashi has a lot of chakra. Gotcha. 

Minato is never, EVER indicated to be super strong. Minato being unsurpassable is in regard to him as an overall ninja (and if anything his SPEED is highlighted as the threat), nowhere does Ay4 praise his physical strength and neither does anyone else.

Comparing Six Paths Sasuke to Kakashi is laughable as the former objectively, as per canon, has literally 50% of Hagoromo chakra. Sasuke's chakra has been commented on and praised for quality, quantity, etc. since P1...Kakashi's has only ever been commented on in terms of its limits, never its strengths.

There's also the matter of common sense. 
The fact you would rather believe a dude that has never been highlighted or praised for his physical strength is secretly some superhuman monster and another dude routinely dunked on for chakra (even in the War Arc) is capable of making Bijuu level mud walls...than a being that ROUTINELY loses its limbs to cutting attacks that aren't all that impressive is merely weak to cutting attacks...is honestly dismaying.


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## Onyx Emperor (May 16, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Seems like headcanon.


Minato doesn't have a lot of stamina


Avatar Twilight said:


> No any sharp weapon can't do that. If that was the case, Gyuki's tails would be cut all the time, but whenever he went on a rampage, only A3 and A4 were ever shown cutting Gyuki's tails.


You act like fodder shinobis don't need to get close to gyuki + actual gyuki tails are much larger so cutting the tails with knife would only scratch them.


Avatar Twilight said:


> Based on what? Minato's strength is slept on a lot. With his rasengan, he also made a massive crater on the ground, not even touching it directly.


Based on Asura path not being a squid.


Avatar Twilight said:


> Yes when Minato was dazed from finding out his student was the masked man.


Sounds like an excuse.


Avatar Twilight said:


> Him blitzing the 5 bijuudama


Doing what? Since when was that a speed feat and not tail swing strength...?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 16, 2021)

Naruto blitzing the Bijuudamas is a speed and strength feat.


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## BlackHeartedImp (May 16, 2021)

Nagato is a bit of a tough out for Minato because of his mentally activated defenses and Battlefield disruption. Can't  hit him with any chakra based abilities, marking him is gonna be difficult, and scattering Kunai is countered by ST.

Boss summons are BFR'd as shown in the SM Naruto fight.

I think Nagato takes it here.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Avatar Twilight (May 18, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> So no facts to back up your arguments, only some wonky DBZ style powerscaling (Minato > Ay4 so therefore if Ay4 can break Susano'o, Minato can too) and some dude on Reddit (ergo, a fan, not Kishi himself or one of his characters) arguing Kakashi has a lot of chakra. Gotcha.
> 
> Minato is never, EVER indicated to be super strong. Minato being unsurpassable is in regard to him as an overall ninja (and if anything his SPEED is highlighted as the threat), nowhere does Ay4 praise his physical strength and neither does anyone else.
> 
> ...


Hype from the manga is a valid argument when not contradicted. And look at the page where he said it again

first stated he'd never be surpassed, then 2 panels later says "even with all his power," implying the statement is regarding Minato's speed as well as power. And who cares if it's some random person on reddit? The list is still true. Feats>statements.

If he's unsurpassable, do you really think he'd have average power? Ay knows exactly how durable his father is, and if he was so durable Minato isn't able to hurt him, Ay wouldn't think Minato was the greatest shinobi who ever lived. 

I literally said on a lesser scale...and once again, feats overrule statements, and in the war arc (not saying in general, just in that arc) he displayed incredible strength and chakra levels. And while Kakashi doesn't scale at all to Six Paths Sasuke, neither does Rinnegan Obito, so that doesn't disprove anything.

Well all kage level shinobi are superhuman monsters, so...and when was Kakashi's stamina dunked on in the war? Do you mean Naruto and Obito saying he won't be able to use kamui to get out of the kamui dimension again? Cause that was after doing a whole bunch of shit mentioned in the link. And did I say the wall is bijuu level? No, I just said him stopping a significantly smaller shuriken barrage doesn't disprove Gyuki's tails being durable. Also, when did a weak person ever cut Gyuki's tails? Let's see. A3, an incredibly powerful kage, Minato who I've talked about, Obito who was one of the final villains of the series, and...oh wait, that's it, isn't it? Just because he's had this tails cut while other Bijuu haven't doesn't mean his tails are weak. Other bijuus' tails just weren't targeted. It's like saying Kurama is a joke since he got controlled by sharingan genjutsu several times. But it's just because those people were that powerful in genjutsu.



BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> Minato doesn't have a lot of stamina
> 
> You act like fodder shinobis don't need to get close to gyuki + actual gyuki tails are much larger so cutting the tails with knife would only scratch them.
> 
> ...


I have seen that argument before. I actually thought that before too. But think about everything he did on the night of Obito's attack. He used chakra to supress Kurama which even made him sweat from the exertion, used shunshin to grab Naruto, got stabbed in the foot by wood (not exactly about chakra levels, but him fighting fine after this wound without any signs of pain is sorta stamina related), used FTG 10 times. used FTG guiding thunder which he used to teleport a goddamn bijuudama which obviously took a lot of chakra, a rasengan, a contract seal that separated the strongest bijuu from Obito, summoned Gamabunta (as a reminder, P1 Naruto, with the chakra he can use to make 1000 clones, wasn't enough to summon Gamabunta and he needed to use Kurama's chakra to do it), transported him and Kurama away (Minato stated teleporting such a large object away would take a lot of chakra), and only after ALL of this did he show any visible signs of fatigue. He still managed to create a barrier around him, Kushina, and Kurama that apparently Kurama couldn't break out of and 57 year old Hiruzen couldn't break into (to remind you he was powerful enough to push Kurama out of the village with his nyoi staff), then Minato used the reaper death seal and after having Kurama's chakra loaded into him in a very tiring manner (given his expression) and being given a huge hole in his torso, he had the stamina to stay conscious and summon Gamatora and wait for Kushina to say her final words (all while a giatn claw is still stuck in his torso). Then he was still able to use the eight signed seal, and what he died from wasn't chakra or blood loss, but just the reaper death seal. 

Are actual Gyuki tails much larger? I've seen this argument but bijuu size in general is very inconsistent, and at the very least, considering it's bijuu form, it should be stronger than V2 which has been shown to be a very durable form.

Asura path is also not a huge bull octopus that is considered one of the world's greatest military assets.

Sounds like the truth. How else would you explain him seeming sloppier than even his alive version, and being slower than Tobirama despite outspeeding Tobirama earlier in base? Also it's literally shown with his "..."s and facial expressions muiltiple times.

He got to them after they had fired off and hit all of them individually with just foot speed.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 18, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> then 2 panels later says "even with all his power," implying the statement is regarding Minato's speed as well as power



He's talking about Minato as a ninja overall, not Minato's physical strength.

Never once does Ay4 or anyone praise Minato's physical strength.



Avatar Twilight said:


> And who cares if it's some random person on reddit? The list is still true



Because some random bub on Reddit isn't an authority on the manga.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Feats>statements.



Feats have no meaning without statements, and outliers exist, so this is a pretty bad take.

And statements from the manga and its characters > some kid from Reddit you think is somehow a more valid source.



Avatar Twilight said:


> If he's unsurpassable, do you really think he'd have average power?



Try learning what power is first. Power =/ physical strength, this isn't DBZ. 

Power includes everything else you have, including your jutsu, speed, intelligence, etc.

Countless characters are less powerful in AP, speed, strength, etc. than those beneath them. Deidara is a joke compared to many of the strongest characters but his bombs outdo their attacks by far in AP. Ay4 has more speed than Ohnoki but Ohnoki is stronger, Lee had more strength than Gaara but lost to Gaara, etc.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Ay knows exactly how durable his father is, and if he was so durable Minato isn't able to hurt him, Ay wouldn't think Minato was the greatest shinobi who ever lived



Or maybe Minato has other ways to hurt him. Y'know, like Rasengan, sealing jutsu, toad summons, elemental affinities, etc.



Avatar Twilight said:


> I literally said on a lesser scale



Ah, yes, because merely 2-3x bigger shuriken are the difference between not even damaging a 



Avatar Twilight said:


> and once again, feats overrule statements



The manga's statements > your personal opinions.



Avatar Twilight said:


> and in the war arc (not saying in general, just in that arc) he displayed incredible strength and chakra levels



According to nothing but your headcanon.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Well all kage level shinobi are superhuman monsters, so...and when was Kakashi's stamina dunked on in the war?





Avatar Twilight said:


> Do you mean Naruto and Obito saying he won't be able to use kamui to get out of the kamui dimension again?



No, I mean Kakashi complaining about stamina before using a Raikiri and Kage Bunshin combo, and then needing Naruto to give him energy after being totally pooped against Obito.



Avatar Twilight said:


> And did I say the wall is bijuu level?



It kind of needs to be to withstand an attack of that magnitude, so you as good as implied it.



Avatar Twilight said:


> No, I just said him stopping a significantly smaller shuriken barrage



Imagine thinking 2-3x size difference somehow is enough to account for the difference between cutting through a Bijuu level defense and failing to cut through a far weaker defense  

This is like saying you can tank a nuclear missile if it was only 2-3x smaller.

THAT'S how bad your argument is.



Avatar Twilight said:


> doesn't disprove Gyuki's tails being durable



Durable, yes, but not against cutting attacks.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Also, when did a weak person ever cut Gyuki's tails?



Define ''weak''.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Let's see. A3, an incredibly powerful kage



Literally the guy that had inhuman strength and durability even by Bijuu standards, so this is a bad take.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Minato who I've talked about



Minato who isn't physically strong and has never been noted to be. 



Avatar Twilight said:


> Obito who was one of the final villains of the series



Obito's shuriken got deflected by a dude who isn't noted for being a strong Doton user, chakra beast, any of that.



Avatar Twilight said:


> and...oh wait, that's it, isn't it?



You missed Sasuke's Chidori Eiso. Taka Sasuke's Eiso, that's less potent than his Chidori, the Chidori that failed to injure Ay4 much.

So either you think Minato's kunai > Chidori Eiso and Chidori (unlikely)...or Minato couldn't actually hurt the Raikage with a kunai.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Just because he's had this tails cut while other Bijuu haven't doesn't mean his tails are weak



His tails are weak against cutting attacks, not in general.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Other bijuus' tails just weren't targeted. It's like saying Kurama is a joke since he got controlled by sharingan genjutsu several times. But it's just because those people were that powerful in genjutsu



Bad argument, given that Kurama is literally stated and shown to be weak to Sharingan Genjutsu and controllable by the MS.

Did you get anything right?


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## Avatar Twilight (May 18, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He's talking about Minato as a ninja overall, not Minato's physical strength.
> 
> Never once does Ay4 or anyone praise Minato's physical strength.
> 
> ...


I'm not only arguing about like punching and kicking power, I mean all around ability to deal damage.

No, the manga is the ultimate authority on the manga.

based on?...also yes outliers exist, but this is an entire arc. At that point it's just a clear buff.

Yes you definitely know it's a kid. Also, statements mean nothing when they're not backed up by feats.

That's what ability refers to. Power is more likely to refer to DPS in some form.

Deidara's attacks have greater destructive capacity than many top tiers, but necessarily attack potency. There's a difference. And I agree on Ay and Ohnoki but Ohnoki has comparable reaction speed which is what matters in a fight based on him lightening and increasining Ay's weight at precisely the right moments.

And does Lee have greater strength? The sand burial is pretty deadly. Lee wasn't able to reduce a body to nothing but blood like Gaara in the forest of death.

The fact that he can hurt him with anything shows incredible strength, considering a kcm rasenshuriken only made some wounds around his body.
M
not complete sentence so idk what to say

you would be write if I was pulling stuff out of my ass like Jiraiya has more stamina than Six Paths Naruto because Jiraiya's never run out of stamina in a battle before while Naruto did, but what I'm saying is literally just what the manga is showing.

According to your headcanon that an entire arc of feats is wrong because you don't think it makes sense.

Yes, after Kakashi fighting the seven ninja swordsman (and apparently using his 1000 jutsu to great effect), and fighting against the bijuu and Obito. Then he fought against them wayyyy more and used kamui MULTIPLE times when using it just once in the very previous arc wiped him out and made him start staggering. Yeah his chakra levels are just the same as they were before...

I didn't say Kakashi's wall is bijuu level, but it is close enough to withstand a significantly weaker attack. In fact those shuriken are likely exponentionally weaker. And also, 6 gates Guy briefly stunning Saiken and Kakashi being comparable to him makes it a lot more believable.

Do I see headcanon from the person claiming I'm using headcanon?

Someone not kage level.

That's my point. A3 cutting through his tails is not an anti feat for his tails in any way. Thank you for helping me prove my point.

already responded to that

someone that is noted for being comparable to 6 gates Guy who could hurt a bijuu.

You know change in form makes jutsu stronger right? The combination of change in chakra nature and form is what makes the rasenshuriken so deadly. So there's no reason to assume Taka Sasuke's chidori spear is weaker than MS Sasuke's chidori. Gyuki's body was also weakened from being burned by the hottest flame known to man, so it makes sense it would be more vulnerable than usual.

I mean considering the Amaterasu weakening Gyuki and it cutting through the tail was much slower (at least in the anime), yeah Taka Sasuke's chidori spear is weaker than Minato's slice. I know that sounds like bullshit, but that's what the source material implies. Especially since that was only Jonin Minato, letalone when he's in his prime or if he stacked SM on top of that, his slices would bow down before no one. 

But why tho.

When? Also Gyuki was not stated to be weak to cutting attacks, so not sure how that's supposed to help you.

Well other than forgetting about Sasuke, I'd say yeah.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> War arc inflation is a thing
> Hirudora went from not evaporating kisame to destroying V3 susanoo. Kisame whose body can be harmed by a Kunai



Or, as is often the case in this form, people do not understand the jutsu they argue about. Madara felt the full power. 

Kisame's jutsu was quite literally watering the tiger down.


Also:

(Hirudora)​
Taijutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Close to mid range
User(s): Might Guy
*Howling youth! A single hit while donning a blue flame!!*

That single blow is like the roar of a ferocious tiger! A true fist of air pressure that is concentrated into a single point faces towards the enemy. Furthermore, instantly after the explosion, scattered forests are blown away while the earth is gouged out. Nobody can escape this secondary shock. The remnants that are standing are even beyond control. Same as for the target, only the blue perspiration that is transformed into mist remains…!!

Among the Eight Gates, one opens the Seventh Wonder Gate and unleashes a true fist that’s a deadly blow!

[The technique] does not use chakra, because it is pure Taijutsu. It is effective against enemies who have the ability to absorb chakra.

Evaporating Kisame, really now? While they wanted to stop him from giving intel to "Madara", they wanted to get any intel he had, so Gai didn't intent to evaporate him.


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## MHA massive fan (May 20, 2021)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or, as is often the case in this form, people do not understand the jutsu they argue about. Madara felt the full power.
> 
> Kisame's jutsu was quite literally watering the tiger down.
> 
> ...


If the water had any baring on the attack power it would have been mentioned 
Head canon to assume it did 
When an attack is weakened or booosted the author always makes it clear

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## Avatar Twilight (May 20, 2021)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or, as is often the case in this form, people do not understand the jutsu they argue about. Madara felt the full power.
> 
> Kisame's jutsu was quite literally watering the tiger down.
> 
> ...


wait A-Rank? Wtf? How is that not an S rank jutsu? It created an island sized explosion when nerfed. I'm pretty sure it's at least as powerful as a rasenshuriken which is S-Rank.


MHA massive fan said:


> If the water had any baring on the attack power it would have been mentioned
> Head canon to assume it did
> When an attack is weakened or booosted the author always makes it clear


Or just using logic

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## trocollo (May 20, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> wait A-Rank? Wtf? How is that not an S rank jutsu? It created an island sized explosion when nerfed. I'm pretty sure it's at least as powerful as a rasenshuriken which is S-Rank.


That's cause the rank of a justu is a measure of its difficoulty not of its power:


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## danielintheserver (May 20, 2021)

Nagato wins handily. FTG is useless. Chibaku tensei and Shinra tensei will kill Minato.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 20, 2021)

Yeah, it's like talking to a wall here. I'm gonna stop.

Imagine thinking your headcanon and dumb theories > manga feats and portrayal


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## Onyx Emperor (May 21, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> I have seen that argument before. I actually thought that before too. But think about everything he did on the night of Obito's attack. He used chakra to supress Kurama which even made him sweat from the exertion, used shunshin to grab Naruto, got stabbed in the foot by wood (not exactly about chakra levels, but him fighting fine after this wound without any signs of pain is sorta stamina related), used FTG 10 times. used FTG guiding thunder which he used to teleport a goddamn bijuudama which obviously took a lot of chakra, a rasengan, a contract seal that separated the strongest bijuu from Obito, summoned Gamabunta (as a reminder, P1 Naruto, with the chakra he can use to make 1000 clones, wasn't enough to summon Gamabunta and he needed to use Kurama's chakra to do it), transported him and Kurama away (Minato stated teleporting such a large object away would take a lot of chakra), and only after ALL of this did he show any visible signs of fatigue. He still managed to create a barrier around him, Kushina, and Kurama that apparently Kurama couldn't break out of and 57 year old Hiruzen couldn't break into (to remind you he was powerful enough to push Kurama out of the village with his nyoi staff), then Minato used the reaper death seal and after having Kurama's chakra loaded into him in a very tiring manner (given his expression) and being given a huge hole in his torso, he had the stamina to stay conscious and summon Gamatora and wait for Kushina to say her final words (all while a giatn claw is still stuck in his torso). Then he was still able to use the eight signed seal, and what he died from wasn't chakra or blood loss, but just the reaper death seal.
> 
> Are actual Gyuki tails much larger? I've seen this argument but bijuu size in general is very inconsistent, and at the very least, considering it's bijuu form, it should be stronger than V2 which has been shown to be a very durable form.
> 
> ...


wait, do you really think i'm gonna read that? pfffft

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Avatar Twilight (May 21, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> wait, do you really think i'm gonna read that? pfffft


If you want your argument to have any validity, yeah.


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## Onyx Emperor (May 21, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> If you want your argument to have any validity, yeah.


no, to keep validity you need to make your messages as much compact and equal to the other post in amount of words as possible.
i wrote couple sentences, you wrote entire page, that's just some kind of perversion at this point.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (May 22, 2021)

@Aegon Targaryen this is the first time i'm gonna ask you why you put a disagree mark on my post
Like, it's a naruto forum, with debates about anime characters, not some political debates, why would you read entire lifestories each post? Maybe you don't have anything else to do, but i have like 3 games to play and do other stuff .-.-.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 22, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> @Aegon Targaryen this is the first time i'm gonna ask you why you put a disagree mark on my post
> Like, it's a naruto forum, with debates about anime characters, not some political debates, why would you read entire lifestories each post? Maybe you don't have anything else to do, but i have like 3 games to play and do other stuff .-.-.



Because I disagree with it 

Not sure why you are so bothered about it tbh. Disagreements happen, and I don't always have time or interest in arguing either, hence the reaction


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 23, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> If the water had any baring on the attack power it would have been mentioned
> Head canon to assume it did
> When an attack is weakened or booosted the author always makes it clear



Or if you have eyes you can see it did. Especially when you compare it to the size to the attack that hit Madara. 



Avatar Twilight said:


> wait A-Rank? Wtf? How is that not an S rank jutsu? It created an island sized explosion when nerfed. I'm pretty sure it's at least as powerful as a rasenshuriken which is S-Rank.
> 
> Or just using logic



Rank = how hard it is to use the jutsu.

Logic is not what many of you guys are using though.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 23, 2021)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or if you have eyes you can see it did. Especially when you compare it to the size to the attack that hit Madara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Guy using Hirudora =/ some rando using it.

You should see his argument that Minato can cleave through Asura Path with a kunai and Kakashi's mud wall is comparable to Bijuu level defenses.


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## Troyse22 (May 23, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Seems like headcanon.
> 
> No any sharp weapon can't do that. If that was the case, Gyuki's tails would be cut all the time, but whenever he went on a rampage, only A3 and A4 were ever shown cutting Gyuki's tails.
> 
> ...



Minato is not physically stronger than A4 what the fuck are u on about?


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## Sufex (May 23, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> wait, do you really think i'm gonna read that? pfffft

Reactions: Funny 1 | Kage 1


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## MHA massive fan (May 24, 2021)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or if you have eyes you can see it did. Especially when you compare it to the size to the attack that hit Madara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No size difference between the Madara attack and kisame one
Idiotic to spend time panel squinting when kishi can’t even draw frogs same size throughout his manga

let me not even get into Yamata supposedly being bigger than manda


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## Avatar Twilight (May 24, 2021)

danielintheserver said:


> Nagato wins handily. FTG is useless. Chibaku tensei and Shinra tensei will kill Minato.


...u know chibaku tensei is useless when Minato can just yeet out of there right?


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, it's like talking to a wall here. I'm gonna stop.
> 
> Imagine thinking your headcanon and dumb theories > manga feats and portrayal


Yes, a mud wall as strong as Kakashi's, which is damn strong.

Imagine thinking your ideas on the manga feats and portrayal>the actual manga feats and portrayal



BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> no, to keep validity you need to make your messages as much compact and equal to the other post in amount of words as possible.
> i wrote couple sentences, you wrote entire page, that's just some kind of perversion at this point.


Well other than my first paragraph my responses were relative (I disagree anyways though). That just speaks to Minato's stamina that his list of feats in one night was that long. So if anything your refusal to read it proves my point that his stamina is VERY high.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or if you have eyes you can see it did. Especially when you compare it to the size to the attack that hit Madara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is part of that logic comment directed at me? Because you disagree in general, or because of my misunderstanding of jutsu ranks?


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Guy using Hirudora =/ some rando using it.
> 
> You should see his argument that Minato can cleave through Asura Path with a kunai and Kakashi's mud wall is comparable to Bijuu level defenses.


That's a baseless appeal to emotion and a strawman argument in the second case. The Asura path isn't even that hard to break. SM Naruto just deleted the asura path's existence with a single rasengan after it was just brought back to full condition. And while a raikiri didn't kill the asura path, it damaged him enough that he couldn't stand/walk. Besides, it's not even like Nagato's entire body is made out of shurado, it just seemed to be his arms.


Troyse22 said:


> Minato is not physically stronger than A4 what the fuck are u on about?


The manga seems to imply otherwise. If Minato really is the strongest out of every shinobi Ay has ever known, that means Minato could apparently beat the third raikage, and him being able to beat A3 implies greater strength than Ay since he certainly couldn't do that. Whether you think it's with a kunai a rasengan or fuinjutsu or whatever doesn't matter since he can still do it. I'm not only referring to physical strength, mostly power as a shinobi, even though I don't see what else Ay would be referring to. It's not likely Ay saw Minato using his fuinjutsu on the battlefield and that's the only thing I can think of other than AP that he's referring to.

Minato has amazing stamina, just reread Kushina's tale of Minato.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 24, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Yes, a mud wall as strong as Kakashi's, which is damn strong



According to nothing but your headcanon. Like, there's literally no proof Kakashi's mud wall is anything special or reason to assume it is.

Kakashi himself tanked being slashed by those shurikens, I might add, so his mud wall not even deflecting them is nothing remarkable.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Imagine thinking your ideas on the manga feats and portrayal>the actual manga feats and portrayal



Didn't you say some dude on Reddit is worth listening to but not the actual manga itself?

You have no room to speak.



Avatar Twilight said:


> The Asura path isn't even that hard to break.



Only if you're delusional or ignorant.



Avatar Twilight said:


> SM Naruto just deleted the asura path's existence with a single rasengan after it was just brought back to full condition



SM amped Rasengan, and the Rasengan itself is incredibly strong.



Avatar Twilight said:


> And while a raikiri didn't kill the asura path



So you admit Asura could survive one of Kakashi's strongest offensive jutsu? 

A jutsu with *far* better feats and portrayal than his shitty mud wall?

At this point I have to ask if you're a troll.


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## Avatar Twilight (May 24, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> According to nothing but your headcanon. Like, there's literally no proof Kakashi's mud wall is anything special or reason to assume it is.
> 
> Kakashi himself tanked being slashed by those shurikens, I might add, so his mud wall not even deflecting them is nothing remarkable.
> 
> ...


Because it's used by an incredibly strong character, and it could also tank a fireball from Obito (at least in the anime), which was compared on panel to Madara's fire style that required like a dozen water style attacks just to neutralize.

He didn't tank them. They cut through him. 

The person listing feats doesn't matter, it's the list of feats with scans from the manga itself.

It's hard to break for regular shinobi, but not high kage level ones.

SM Naruto still is nowhere near Minato's level yet. I know there's the statement about Naruto having surpassed his predeccesors, but that's a clear retcon when he doesn't have feats on Minato's level. If anything it's probably referring to Naruto's mastery of SM since that's the only aspect where he might've surpassed them (tho idk Minato did tap into SM pretty quick). And yeah the Rasengan is incredibly strong, so even if MInato can't break the asura path's skin with a kunai he can just use a rasengan of his own.

At this point I have to ask if you remember that Pain Arc Kakashi and War Arc Kakashi are on completely different tiers. PA Kakashi could not hold a candle to even Orange Mask Obito, yet WA Kakashi fought against WM Obito and the bijuu and Madara extensively. Don't say there was hardly any time between arcs for him to get much stronger, it doesn't matter. His feats say otherwise. Also I have to ask why you think his mud wall is shitty. It's a jutsu that's been used by many kage level shinobi before so it's clearly not a bad jutsu.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 24, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Because it's used by an incredibly strong character



I asked for evidence.

Miss me with that "iNcrEdiBLy sTronG chARaCtEr" shit.

Naruto is a manga where weaker characters routinely outstat stronger ones in many ways. Tayuya has better Genjutsu than any version of Naruto, Raikage has better speed than Ohnoki, Kisame has more stamina than Itachi, Jirobo has more physical strength than Kakashi, VoTe Naruto has more AP and defense than Zabuza, etc etc.

Prove Minato has super strength or concede.


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## Avatar Twilight (May 24, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I asked for evidence.
> 
> Miss me with that "iNcrEdiBLy sTronG chARaCtEr" shit.
> 
> ...


Because I already talked about how he fought Obito and bijuu I didn't feel the need to repeat it. 

Idk about Jirobo has greater physical strength than Kakashi (depends what you mean by "physical strength") and VOTE Naruto's power compared to jonin is unclear.



This is one of Ay's signature moves, and it made a comparable crater to Minato's attack. Plus it's not even like the Rasengan is focused on destructive capacity, it's supposed to be a compact attack, while Ay's attack is supposed to just smash stuff. So Minato's feat if anything is more impressive.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 24, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> Because I already talked about how he fought Obito and bijuu I didn't feel the need to repeat it.



I asked for evidence. 

Can you provide it to me? If not, please stop quoting me.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Idk about Jirobo has greater physical strength than Kakashi (depends what you mean by "physical strength")



I mean your strength in punching, kicking, tossing, etc.

I really hope you're not about to insinuate Kakashi has more physical strength than a guy that can lift Giant Choji lol.



Avatar Twilight said:


> and VOTE Naruto's power compared to jonin is unclear



Not at all, actually. KN1 Rasengan has vastly better feat and portrayal than anything most Jonin have ever done, Kurenai included.



Avatar Twilight said:


> This is one of Ay's signature moves, and it made a comparable crater to Minato's attack. Plus it's not even like the Rasengan is focused on destructive capacity, it's supposed to be a compact attack, while Ay's attack is supposed to just smash stuff. So Minato's feat if anything is more impressive.



This is a shitty argument, given that Rasengan is literally the attack that overpowered Kabuto's regen and blasted a steel tank through on a level even Chidori (an attack capable of piercing Gaara's shield of sand) could not accomplish. It is absolutely a destructive attack.

But sure, blasting through a steel tank and cratering the earth routinely upon use is not destructive.


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## Avatar Twilight (May 24, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I asked for evidence.
> 
> Can you provide it to me? If not, please stop quoting me.
> 
> ...


The manga. He slashed through V2 arms and fought alongisde kcm Naruto and 6 Gates Guy.

Kakashi can't lift as much as Jirobo, but his cqc strength is greater than Jirobo's. Jirobo certainly couldn't trade punches with Obito.

Wdym Kurenai included? She's a genjutsu specialist, not an AP focused fighter. And how big an explosion you make isn't representative of your attack potency necessarily. It's like how in DBZ characters don't constantly blow up the planet even though the power of their attacks is more than planet level.

Overpowering Kabuto's regen is attack potency not destructive capactiy. And chidori is just a piercing attack. It's not supposed to be a wide range destruction jutsu either. As for the rasengan making a big hole, it didn't do that on its own. There's water in the tank, so since the rasengan spirals what it hits and everything, stirring all the water that fast likely was part of the burst. Or maybe you'll call that headcanon (even though that's kinda how the jutsu works) and toss it out the window. The Rasengan does have some dc but that's not the focus of its power. 

It is destructive but nowhere near as destructive as it should be. Naruto characters are mountain level at the kage level, but they usually don't display feats nearly on that level.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 24, 2021)

Avatar Twilight said:


> The manga. He slashed through V2 arms and fought alongisde kcm Naruto and 6 Gates Guy



I'm talking about Minato, not Kakashi. 



Avatar Twilight said:


> Kakashi can't lift as much as Jirobo



Concession accepted.



Avatar Twilight said:


> but his cqc strength is greater than Jirobo's



Baseless headcanon. Jirobo's CQC strength is far above Kakashi's too. 

You can't be a strong grappler AND a weak puncher, it's physically impossible.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Jirobo certainly couldn't trade punches with Obito



Define ''trade punches''. Obito has far better CQC speed, but Jirobo easily decimates him in pure strength.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Wdym Kurenai included? She's a genjutsu specialist, not an AP focused fighter



Neither is Kakashi nor Minato, you hypocrite. 



Avatar Twilight said:


> And how big an explosion you make isn't representative of your attack potency necessarily



I believe you argued the Rasengan was not destructive. That IS a feat of destruction, you troll.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Overpowering Kabuto's regen is attack potency not destructive capactiy



True, though I love how you skated over the Rasengan ravaging the ground and the water pump it hit.



Avatar Twilight said:


> And chidori is just a piercing attack. It's not supposed to be a wide range destruction jutsu either.



Gee, same as Minato's kunai stab then... 

Minato isn't noted for being a ''wide range destruction'' type and neither is his stab noted as being ''wide range destructive''  

Because stabbing people with a knife (Minato) is somehow more destructive than stabbing them at HIGH SPEED with Raiton chakra (Kakashi) 



Avatar Twilight said:


> As for the rasengan making a big hole, it didn't do that on its own. There's water in the tank, so since the rasengan spirals what it hits and everything, stirring all the water that fast likely was part of the burst



The Rasengan stirring water up IS a function of the Rasengan at any rate, so the Rasengan is STILL responsible for that damage, troll.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Or maybe you'll call that headcanon (even though that's kinda how the jutsu works)



Funny, if we're gonna talk about how things work, one would realize Minato is meant to be a speedster, not a hard hitter.



Avatar Twilight said:


> The Rasengan does have some dc but that's not the focus of its power



So you admit you're incorrect about Rasengan not being destructive. Good, some progress at least.



Avatar Twilight said:


> Naruto characters are mountain level at the kage level



Yeah, this is a straight up lie backed up by nothing.

Even small mountain busting attacks like Kirin are literally portrayed as too strong for Kage levels like Itachi to survive outside Susano'o (and his Susano'o got destroyed by the blast on top of that). Even city level attacks like KN4's Bijuudama can kill guys like Orochimaru.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Guy using Hirudora =/ some rando using it.
> 
> You should see his argument that Minato can cleave through Asura Path with a kunai and Kakashi's mud wall is comparable to Bijuu level defenses.



If you know how a rando's looks then it would help.

I gathered when he mistook a shoulder for a neck.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> No size difference between the Madara attack and kisame one
> Idiotic to spend time panel squinting when kishi can’t even draw frogs same size throughout his manga
> 
> let me not even get into Yamata supposedly being bigger than manda



There a difference between the 2 tigers and the end impact. 
Like its idiotic to spend time saying Kisame should have been evaporated when he would've been more valuable alive given the intel he could offer?

Just because you don't know how scaling in panels work doesn't mean certain things don't work in the manga. A lot of people used that nonsense to say Gamabunta would dwarf Pain's summons and Gamaken. Didn't work out so well.


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## MHA massive fan (May 25, 2021)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There a difference between the 2 tigers and the end impact.
> Like its idiotic to spend time saying Kisame should have been evaporated when he would've been more valuable alive given the intel he could offer?
> 
> Just because you don't know how scaling in panels work doesn't mean certain things don't work in the manga. A lot of people used that nonsense to say Gamabunta would dwarf Pain's summons and Gamaken. Didn't work out so well.


Alright bud 
Till stated otherwise by the author the attack was the same 
Even the description talks about the secondary blast being the issue . He wanted to take out the sharks Vs just aiming at kisame only unlike against Madara .


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## Steven (May 25, 2021)

Nagato legit low-diffs

A bigger ST washes Linato away


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## Avatar Twilight (May 25, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm talking about Minato, not Kakashi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


k

but lifting strength doesn't equal striking strength

He has no feats on that level. His best is fighting against Choji who is not even close to kage level. 

Based on...?

I mean she literally doesn't have any power showings. Kakashi and Minato do, even though they are strategic fighters.

I said it's more about potency than destruction.

I didn't?

Ok. When did I say the kunai has wide range destruction? I didn't. It has high AP not dc.

It's more potent for Minato to stab his kunai at faster speeds than Kakashi's raikiri.

But it's not directly.

You can be a speedster and a hard hitter. Like how the rasengan is about potency but also has impressive destructive capability.

you flatter me.

these are calculations of feats by kage level characters.
vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AlexSoloVaAlFuturo/Naruto_-_Silence,_not_liar
vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blogamage3245/Six-Tails_Naruto_Biju_Bomb
vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/Kirin_Revisited


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## Avatar Twilight (May 25, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> Nagato legit low-diffs
> 
> A bigger ST washes Linato away


a bigger shinra tensei forces Minato to warp away


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