# Aiolos vs Saga



## Id (Jan 23, 2017)

Aiolos (Saint Seiya GA)

VS

Saga (Saint Seiya Saintia Sho)


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## Akira1993 (Jan 23, 2017)

One thousand war again or mutual destruction.
That is the rule between top tier Gold saint fight.


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

Evil Saga / God Saga in Saintia Sho have a comparable cosmos with Eris and Athena.
Saintia Sho 32:

*Spoiler*: __ 








Saintia Sho 33:

Saintia Sho 34:

*Spoiler*: __ 









The attacks of Aiolos in Assassin were stopped by Gold Saints injured or weakened.

Saga beats Aiolia and Milo with a casual burst of energy when he became god.
Saintia Sho 31:

Extra pages or changes in the edition of the volume.
Saintia Sho 31:


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

Saga (before becoming god) defeated Aioria with half of his power.
Saintia Sho 29:

*Spoiler*: __ 







Saga without a real Gold Cloth resists the 15 attacks of the Scarlet Needle used by Milo with his cosmos to the maximum. Saga tries kill to Milo and Aioria with a Galaxian Explosion.
Saintia Sho 30:


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## Cain1234 (Jan 23, 2017)

But this is Aiolos not Aiolia. And more importantly 9th sense Aiolos.


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

A god like Eris and Athena surpasses the power of Aiolos. Aiolos is the servant of Chaos Athena or Tomoe (the Athena of a alternative world). In this case Saga surpassed Milo and Aiolia with half of its power (before becoming god).


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## Id (Jan 23, 2017)

Why would power scaling in Saintai impact GA, when they are not canonical tied or related to each other?


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

Id said:


> Why would power scaling in Saintai impact GA, when they are not canonical tied or related to each other?


Saintia Sho continue with the argument of the Classic and Next Dimension (in the manga is presented a summary of the battle in the Sanctuary, the Olympus and the Temple of the Moon: the Satellites, Callisto and Artemis).  In the last interview of Kouri it was indicated that Kurumada supervises the history and contributed with details or the general draft to follow of the history of the manga.

In this case Aiolos is weaker than a god like Athena or even the Twin Gods/Hypnos or Thanatos in the Classic (for the moment). The best feat of Aioros is fight with Gold Saints weakened and injured, who were affected by the power of the Underworld. And Saga surpassed two Gold Saints (to the maximum) with the half of his power and is much more powerful as a god (is comparable with Athena and Eris).


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## ebonyLogic (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> A god like Eris and Athena surpasses the power of Aiolos. Aiolos is the servant of Chaos Athena or Tomoe (the Athena of a alternative world). In this case Saga surpassed Milo and Aiolia with half of its power (before becoming god).




We already assumed saga was a fair bit above both already Milo and Aiolia. Also trying to power-scale the spin-offs especially one like G where there's multiple time-lines/universes is silly.

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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

No evidence that Saga is actually comparable to Eris. All he has described is just that he has a huge Cosmo, but no one actually said that Cosmo is comparable to Eris' in Sho. Stop wanking, Gutts.

Also, it is uncertain whether or not Aiolos is actually weaker than Tomoe or not since even though he serves her, she did thank him for protecting her through the ordeals, so he may be close to her in power or surpass her entirely. But that is uncertain as of now.

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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

The cosmos of Saga is described as a great cosmos. The cosmos of a god. Saga was confident of fighting with Athena, even asks Eris to return the soul of the goddess.

Aiolos has shown nothing to equal to a god in the classic is even weaker than Hypnos and Tanathos for the moment. Aiolos is weaker than a god, he is simply the servant of Tomoe. Stop wanking, tivanenk.


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## SF latif (Jan 23, 2017)

@Gutts X3 

what are your reasonings for putting Aiolos below Twin gods?


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanatos defeats the five protagonists with Gold Cloth and a cosmos comparable or superior to the Gold Saints (at least mid-level), and Aiolos can not defeat to Gold Saints weakened and injured, who were affected by the power of the Underworld.


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## SF latif (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Thanatos defeats the five protagonists with Gold Cloth and a cosmos comparable or superior to the Gold Saints (at least mid-level) and Aiolos can not defeat to Gold Saints weakened and injured, who were affected by the power of the Underworld.


that`s not enough reasonings i was hoping for. gold saints aiolos was fighting are much stronger than the five protagonists thanatos stomped.


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## Sablés (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> @Gutts X3
> 
> what are your reasonings for putting Aiolos below Twin gods?


Hypnos is at least stronger than a few of the God Saints by virtue of beating Shun without much difficulty and tanking Seiya's attack.

but from what I hear, Aiolos' feats would be enough to rival or hit above Hyperion so he shouldn't be weaker than any of the twin Gods.


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> that`s not enough reasonings i was hoping for. gold saints aiolos was fighting are much stronger than the five protagonists thanatos stomped.


Saga was weakened (is an Owl). Shura is no stronger than Hyoga, Ikki or Seiya. And Deathmask is not stronger than any of the five protagonists at maximun. Not to mention that the Gold Saints were injured and weakened, and they were caught by the power of the Underworld (or the power of Hades).


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## Sablés (Jan 23, 2017)

Also

this thread is bait.


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## Blade (Jan 23, 2017)

baitthread/10



SASUGA

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

Sablés said:


> but from what I hear, Aiolos' feats would be enough to rival or hit above Hyperion so he shouldn't be weaker than any of the twin Gods.


Hyperion of Omega or Hyperion of Episode G?. The Hyperion of Episode G (to the maximum with memory recovered) fought with Aiolia with a divine power as the Keraunos and Deumanis. He showed a higher power than Aiolos for the moment.


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## Id (Jan 23, 2017)

@Gutts X3 Had Rhada not intervened do you think Saga and Company would have survived AE or Lightning Void?


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## SF latif (Jan 23, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Hypnos is at least stronger than a few of the God Saints by virtue of beating Shun without much difficulty and tanking Seiya's attack.


i was asking what were his reasonings are. however, im` sure the reason hypnos defeated shun was because of his HAX. In terms of Raw power he should be weaker



Gutts X3 said:


> Saga was weakened (is an Owl). Shura is no stronger than Hyoga, Ikki or Seiya. And Deathmask is not stronger than any of the five protagonists at maximun. Not to mention that the Gold Saints were injured and weakened, and they were caught by the power of the Underworld (or the power of Hades).


proof saga was weekened? and your mistaking former shura with current shura who got an amp with his new technque. and Injuries of such scale shouldn`t matter as cosmos gives them regenerability plus shura had most of his injuries healed by the time he returned to living world. and only shura was being effect by underworld.


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## Sablés (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> i was asking what were his reasonings are. however, im` sure the reason hypnos defeated shun was because of his HAX. In terms of Raw power he should be weaker



A fuckton of SS characters fight with hax so that's not really a derogation of power level

but no, it wasn't just hax. Hypnos physically overpowers Shun  and takes his (and Seiya's) technique head-on.


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

Id said:


> @Gutts X3 Had Rhada not intervened do you think Saga and Company would have survived AE or Lightning Void?


That is unknown. If the Gold Saints had all their strength and not fight in the Underworld (with the power of Hades suppressing the power of the Golden Saints). Is possible that the Gold Saints surpassed to Aiolos without help of Rhadamanthys.


SF latif said:


> proof saga was weekened? and your mistaking former shura with current shura who got an amp with his new technque. and Injuries of such scale shouldn`t matter as cosmos gives them regenerability plus shura had most of his injuries healed by the time he returned to living world. and only shura was being effect by underworld.


Saga is an owl can not change shape for long. Hyoga exceeded to Izo without difficulty (Izo is superior to Shura in skill). The serious injury in the body can affect the cosmos of a Saint an example is Suikyo or Shijima in ND. The Bronze Saints healed the serious injury of Shura with the Shinôten. Not all Gold Saints were affected by the power of the Underworld so they used the Athena Exclamation.


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## SF latif (Jan 23, 2017)

Sablés said:


> A fuckton of SS characters fight with hax so that's not really a derogation of power level
> 
> but no, it wasn't just hax. Hypnos physically overpowers Shun  and takes his (and Seiya's) technique head-on.


i mean, Shaka was able to effect Iapetus despite being weaker 

and No. he didn`t overpower Shun, he dodged his technique which still broke parts of his cloth. and seiya likely held back with his technique



Gutts X3 said:


> That is unknown. If the Gold Saints had all their strength and not fight in the Underworld (with the power of Hades suppressing the power of the Golden Saints). Is possible that the Gold Saints surpassed to Aiolos without help of Rhadamanthys.
> 
> Saga is an owl can not change shape for long. The serious injury in the body can affect the cosmos of a Saint an example is Suikyo or Shijima in ND. The Bronze Saints healed the serious injury of Shura with the Shinôten. Not all Gold Saints were affected by the power of the Underworld so they used the Athena Exclamation.


Shijima exhusted his cosmos fighting shaka, he didn`t took damage to his astral form bruh. idk about Suikyo. and what feats thanatos has that puts him over AE? let alone amped up version (which aiolos took with little damage)


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## Id (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> That is unknown. If the Gold Saints had all their strength and not fight in the Underworld (with the power of Hades suppressing the power of the Golden Saints). Is possible that the Gold Saints surpassed to Aiolos without help of Rhadamanthys.


Let me be more direct. 
Can Saga, Deathmask, or Shura tank the Athena Exclamation?


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## Sablés (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> and No. he didn`t overpower Shun



Sure. Guess Shun just likes getting tossed



And Hypnos outright says Shun isn't on his level. Which says a lot since he's the one who went out of his way to hype the God cloths as something that shouldn't be fucked with in the first place.



> and seiya likely held back with his technique



Nice fanfic. Seiya  wanted to get to Athena fast so he had no reason to hold back and had everything to gain by killing Hypnos with that shot if he could.


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> Shijima exhusted his cosmos fighting shaka, he didn`t took damage to his astral form bruh. idk about Suikyo. and what feats thanatos has that puts him over AE? let alone amped up version (which aiolos took with little damage)


The defeating five Gold Saints with an attack (even when he did not try to kill them). Thanatos survives a attack of Seiya with God Cloth. Hypnos resists a Pegasus Ryusei Ken of Seiya with God Cloth. Aiolos does not receive damage from the Athena Exclamation because he was in another dimension. In the game of Saint Seiya Online, Thanatos fights with the Athena Exclamation of Shaka, Aiolia and Aldebaran (Is not canon, but shows the power of the Twin Gods that surpass the power of five Gold Saints).


Id said:


> Let me be more direct.
> Can Saga, Deathmask, or Shura tank the Athena Exclamation?


The Gold Saints can not resist the power of Athena Exclamation at maximum.


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## SF latif (Jan 23, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Sure. Guess Shun just likes getting tossed
> 
> 
> 
> And Hypnos outright says Shun isn't on his level. Which says a lot since he's the one who went out of his way to hype the God cloths as something that shouldn't be fucked with in the first place.


well, yea. shun usually gets himself get hurt because he doesn`t like to fight  

and hypnos was also the one who said god cloths are more powerfull than he thought, and then he goes on to use his HAX 



Sablés said:


> Nice fanfic. Seiya wanted to get to Athena fast so he had no reason to hold back and had everything to gain by killing Hypnos with that shot if he could.


eh not really. unless you think Shun is stronger than seiya since he was able to broke parts of his cloth while seiya`s attack did not


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## SF latif (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The defeating five Gold Saints with an attack (even when he did not try to kill them). Thanatos survives a attack of Seiya with Cloth of God. Aiolos does not receive damage from the Athena Exclamation because he was in another dimension. In the game of Saint Seiya Online, Thanatos fights with the Athena Exclamation of Shaka, Aiolia and Aldebaran (Is not canon, but shows the power of the Twin Gods that surpass the power of five Gold Saints).


Now your just lowballing Aiolos. We see AE travelling to Aiolos`s dimension and damaging him. and defeating bronze saints whom are barely high-tier is not as impressive as taking on the top dogs simultaneously. 

also can i have the link to where thanatos fights AE?


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## Sablés (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> well, yea. shun usually gets himself get hurt because he doesn`t like to fight



What kind of mental gymnastics are you pulling here?

Shun is actively trying to keep Hypnos in place with his chains
Hypnos grabs it and flips him into the air against his will

Hypnos is physically stronger than Shun.  You can't twist this any other way.



> and hypnos was also the one who said god cloths are more powerfull than he thought, and then he goes on to use his HAX



Uh no. Even though Shun hit him, he still wasn't in any danger. Hypnos never underestimated the strength of the cloths themselves.



> unless you think Shun is stronger than seiya since he was able to broke parts of his cloth while seiya`s attack did not



Try again.

Unlike with Shun, not only does Hypnos' crown shatter but he's visibly staggered by Seiya's attack and can't even chase after him.  What Hypnos says is that even with a divine cloth, Seiya is much stronger than he should be. Something that's supported outright by his far better performance against Hades than the others.

edit: shit, i'm pretty sure seiya even blitzed him


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> Now your just lowballing Aiolos. We see AE travelling to Aiolos`s dimension and damaging him. and defeating bronze saints whom are barely high-tier is not as impressive as taking on the top dogs simultaneously.
> 
> also can i have the link to where thanatos fights AE?


Is unknown how much energy of the technique came to the dimension of Aiolos. In the scene we can not observe the ray of the Athena Exclamation in the dimension of Aiolos. In this case are five Gold Saints surpassed by the power of Thanatos (and the Bronze Saints are stronger than Shura or Deathmask).

Saint Seiya Online:


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## SF latif (Jan 23, 2017)

Sablés said:


> What kind of mental gymnastics are you pulling here?
> 
> Shun is actively trying to keep Hypnos in place with his chains
> Hypnos grabs it and flips him into the air against his will


except shun usually holds back, and barely fights back. and this was proven when shun easily broke parts of hypnos`s cloths 



Sablés said:


> Hypnos is physically stronger than Shun. You can't twist this any other way.


except he isn`t 



Sablés said:


> Uh no. Even though Shun hit him, he still wasn't in any danger. Hypnos never underestimated the strength of the cloths themselves.


>uses his greatest technique which ignore Raw power and durability 
>Shun just stays still while Hypnos uses his technique on him
>Hypnos Admits Shun will reawaken soon if he doesn`t kill him 
>Not in any danger 
topkek 



Sablés said:


> Try again.
> 
> Unlike with Shun, not only does Hypnos' crown shatter but he's visibly staggered by Seiya's attack and can't even chase after him. What Hypnos says is that even with a divine cloth, Seiya is much stronger than he should be. Something that's supported outright by his far better performance against Hades than the others.
> 
> edit: shit, i'm pretty sure seiya even blitzed him


this has nothing to do with what i said but okay

And no. hypnos wasn`t staggered, Ikki blocked him 



but i digress. this isn`t the topic here 



Gutts X3 said:


> Is unknown how much energy of the technique came to the dimension of Aiolos. In the scene we can not observe the ray of the Athena Exclamation in the dimension of Aiolos. In this case are five Gold Saints surpassed by the power of Thanatos (and the Bronze Saints are stronger than Shura or Deathmask).
> 
> Saint Seiya Online:


by this logic, Aiolo`s attacks would be shit ton weaker too. 

also the video ends with goldies using the AE. do you have the full video?


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> by this logic, Aiolo`s attacks would be shit ton weaker too.
> 
> also the video ends with goldies using the AE. do you have the full video?


Aiolos seems to have the ability to move with freedom between different worlds, dimensions and timelines. The ray of the Aioros attacks can be clearly seen in the Underworld.

No, but in the Wiki in Spanish indicate that the Twin Gods withdraw from the Sanctuary when the avatar of the player supports the Gold Saints.


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## Sablés (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> except shun usually holds back, and barely fights back. and this was proven when shun easily broke parts of hypnos`s cloths



Yeah, he hold back attacking. Not *defending*. There is no excuse for getting thrown back like that if he was stronger than Hypnos.



> >uses his greatest technique which ignore Raw power and durability
> >Shun just stays still while Hypnos uses his technique on him
> >Hypnos Admits Shun will reawaken soon if he doesn`t kill him
> >Not in any danger



Sorry. Was Shun not the one on the ground and needed to be bailed out by Hyouga and Shiryu while Hypnos barely had  a scratch on him

Selective reading OP,




> this has nothing to do with what i said but okay



It absolutely does because the original point was that Seiya had no business holding back when he hit Hypnos.

You used Shun somehow doing less damage to Hypnos as a point which makes no sense.



> And no. hypnos wasn`t staggered



>Nearly shit himself after taking Seiya's hit 
>Wasn't able to react to it at all
>Seiya is literally already leaving by the time Hypnos turns around to face him
>Not staggered

lol




> but i digress. this isn`t the topic here



This is true.


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## Fang (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> A god like Eris and Athena surpasses the power of Aiolos. Aiolos is the servant of Chaos Athena or Tomoe (the Athena of a alternative world). In this case Saga surpassed Milo and Aiolia with half of its power (before becoming god).



This doesn't work as they don't share the same continuity but otherwise yes, Saintia Sho Saga vastly eclipses G-A's Aiolos in power.


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## SF latif (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Aiolos seems to have the ability to move with freedom between different worlds, dimensions and timelines. The ray of the Aioros attacks can be clearly seen in the Underworld.


your assuming stuff now bud. aiolos himself can travel across space-time like any other gladiators. not his attacks. and if the attack didn`t travel to another dimension aiolos wouldn`t be bleeding. com` son


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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

LOL Gutts, Thanatos doesn't even have full control over his 9th sense unlike Aiolos does, and Aiolos is already > Sigurd who fought a God Cloth Seiya to a slight win before the latter pulled out a Miracle the likes of which he used to hit Hades with.

Which means that Aiolos is either equal to or greater than Seiya with a God Cloth. And you still haven't proven Saga is comparable to Eris.

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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> your assuming stuff now bud. aiolos himself can travel across space-time like any other gladiators. not his attacks. and if the attack didn`t travel to another dimension aiolos wouldn`t be bleeding. com` son



If Aiolos had actually been there with them, he would have suddenly appeared on Earth together with them since they broke through the Underworld at that location. Also, the background is clearly different.


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## SF latif (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> If Aiolos had actually been there with them, he would have suddenly appeared on Earth together with them since they broke through the Underworld at that location. Also, the background is clearly different.


eh? what you mean


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> LOL Gutts, Thanatos doesn't even have full control over his 9th sense unlike Aiolos does, and Aiolos is already > Sigurd who fought a God Cloth Seiya to a slight win before the latter pulled out a Miracle the likes of which he used to hit Hades with.
> 
> Which means that Aiolos is either equal to or greater than Seiya with a God Cloth. And you still haven't proven Saga is comparable to Eris.


Lol, that's never said in history. Tanathos or Hypnos son gods on the contrary to Aiolos. In this case Seiya is under the effect of the curse of Hades, even he does not consider himself able to continue fighting. Seiya to the maximum far surpasses to Aiolos.
Episode G - Special 30th Anniversary

In this case, Saga demonstrates the power of a god. Aiolos shows nothing that equals the power of Hypnos or Thanatos. Saga mentions that he can fight with Athena.


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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

SF latif said:


> eh? what you mean



When the AE overpowered the Lightning Void, the protagonists were transported back to the Living World, if Aiolos was there with them, then he would have been transported too. Also, Aiolos has a blue and black background whenever he's shown, while the Gold Saints are in a red and black background, indicating that the two are in separate places.


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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Lol, that's never said in history. Tanathos or Hypnos son gods on the contrary to Aiolos. In this case Seiya is under the effect of the curse of Hades, even he does not consider himself able to continue fighting. Seiya to the maximum far surpasses to Aiolos.



The curse of Hades doesn't even weaken him much. Paracelsus said in the omake that Seiya had mostly had recovered his strength, and Ikki said that he didn't see Seiya as weakened. So Seiya is practically the same as he was used to be, except he has to continue to burn his Cosmo to stay alive.


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> The curse of Hades doesn't even weaken him much. Paracelsus said in the omake that Seiya had mostly had recovered his strength, and Ikki said that he didn't see Seiya as weakened. So Seiya is practically the same as he was used to be, except he has to continue to burn his Cosmo to stay alive.


The curse has weakened him much as Seiya indicates. Ikki only motivates Seiya to continue fighting, after all even in that condition he defeated Sigurd. And the Gladiators are only of the level of a Gold Saint.


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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The curse has weakened him much as Seiya indicates. Ikki just told him that to motivate, after all even in that condition he defeated Sigurd.



Seiya is still be above the likes of Saga's level considering that he was able to punch away Aiolos' Lightning Telios with his bare hands, while Saga had to use Another Dimension so BFR it instead of taking it. So his base Cosmo is much stronger than anyone in the series bar Aiolos.

Seiya didn't weaken much at all.


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## Fang (Jan 23, 2017)

>ignoring it was a sneak attack on a clothless naked Saga


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Seiya is still be above the likes of Saga's level considering that he was able to punch away Aiolos' Lightning Telios with his bare hands, while Saga had to use Another Dimension so BFR it instead of taking it. So his base Cosmo is much stronger than anyone in the series bar Aiolos.
> 
> Seiya didn't weaken much at all.


The curse weakened much to Seiya (he indicates that he can not fight like before). In this case Seiya seems to be only Gold Saint level, he even faints by the effort at the end of the fight. Saga is superior to Seiya weakened by the curse of Hades, even Seiya with Seventh Sense and the cosmos of all Bronze Saints could not defeat Saga in the Classic.


SF latif said:


> your assuming stuff now bud. aiolos himself can travel across space-time like any other gladiators. not his attacks. and if the attack didn`t travel to another dimension aiolos wouldn`t be bleeding. com` son


In this case Aiolos is who moves between different worlds or timelines. The attack of Aiolos is visible in Underworld. The Athena Exclamation is not visible in the dimension of Aiolos. The Gold Saints used the Athena Exclamation to escape the world of death, not against Aiolos.


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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

Fang said:


> >ignoring it was a sneak attack on a clothless naked Saga



There was no "sneak attack" on Saga since he noticed that the attack was coming already, but even if you think that, Aiolos' first attack was _Lightning Flame_, not his Lightning Telios. That only came on his third attack where Saga was well aware of it.

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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The curse weakened much to Seiya (he indicates that he can not fight like before). In this case Seiya seems to be only Gold Saint level, he even faints by the effort at the end of the fight. Saga is superior to Seiya weakened by the curse of Hades, even Seiya with Seventh Sense and the cosmos of all Bronze Saints could not defeat Saga in the Classic.



He's definitely way above Gold Saint level considering that Shiryu, who was training for around 20-25 years or so after the war with Hades was getting absolutely whomped by an even weaker Sigurd, yet a Bronze Cloth Seiya (which was broken) was already putting up a fight against a much stronger Divine Sigurd who had to gank Shiryu in order to take Seiya down. And that was before he went into his God Cloth. Seiya is at the very least in the Minor Gods level now, if not higher.


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## Fang (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> There was no "sneak attack" on Saga since he noticed that the attack was coming already, but even if you think that, Aiolos' first attack was _Lightning Flame_, not his Lightning Telios. That only came on his third attack where Saga was well aware of it.



Only thing the French version says is that Saga can't "maintain" his current "form" for long. Then Aiolos bitches at Saga's intervention and attacks him, which Saga notes after the attack is already underway in the panel, which is why he's wounded immediately on the next page and Shura is freaking out. Any attack like that is considered a "sneak" attack.

You are wrong.


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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

Fang said:


> Only thing the French version says is that Saga can't "maintain" his current "form" for long. Then Aiolos bitches at Saga's intervention and attacks him, which Saga notes after the attack is already underway in the panel, which is why he's wounded immediately on the next page and Shura is freaking out. Any attack like that is considered a "sneak" attack.
> 
> You are wrong.



He set the underworld ablaze and both Shura and Saga looked at it and were able to comprehend what it is and who was doing this. They were fully aware of the attack. Just because Saga let it hit him doesn't make it less true.

Besides, the subject was the Lightning Telios strike which Seiya easily punched away unlike Saga who had to use Another Dimension for it.


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> He's definitely way above Gold Saint level considering that Shiryu, who was training for around 20-25 years or so after the war with Hades was getting absolutely whomped by an even weaker Sigurd, yet a Bronze Cloth Seiya (which was broken) was already putting up a fight against a much stronger Divine Sigurd who had to gank Shiryu in order to take Seiya down. And that was before he went into his God Cloth. Seiya is at the very least in the Minor Gods level now, if not higher.


20 or 25 year after of Hades?. In history there is no mention of how many years it is after Hades. Shun continues training to become in a dignied successor of Virgo. Sigurd only defeats Shiryu attacking to the maximum when he does not wear his Gold Cloth. In this case Seiya is weakened by the curse of Hades, he can not fight as before. Is impossible for him to have the strength of a god like Hypnos or Thanatos (who have the power of five Gold Saints). Seiya has the strength of a middle-level Gold Saint.


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## Fang (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> He set the underworld ablaze and both Shura and Saga looked at it and were able to comprehend what it is and who was doing this. They were fully aware of the attack. Just because Saga let it hit him doesn't make it less true.
> 
> Besides, the subject was the Lightning Telios strike which Seiya easily punched away unlike Saga who had to use Another Dimension for it.



No.

The attack is already upon him when he reacts to Aiolos' Lightning Flame. When Aiolos uses Lightning Telos, the attack has already reached him when he decides to use Another Dimension.

Saga was never fully aware of the attack and was bleeding both times, this is as much bullshit as you and Matthew lying about Kanon giving Saga a "HP +1" when Kanon sent the Gemini Cloth to Saga in the Underworld. You are curiously blind if you think the attack reaching Saga already and him taking an injury for it while only the panel shows him looking as it hits them is him reacting "before" it when Aiolos first attacks Saga.

You also like to brag about Aiolos stalemating an AE from the trio but you fail to also account for the fact that both Saga and Shura are heavily injured and wounded even before performing it.


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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> 20 or 25 year after of Hades?. In history there is no mention of how many years it is after Hades. Shun continues training to become in a dignied successor of Virgo. Sigurd only defeats Shiryu attacking to the maximum when he does not wear his Gold Cloth. In this case Seiya is weakened by the curse of Hades, he can not fight as before. Is impossible for him to have the strength of a god like Hypnos or Thanatos (who have the power of five Gold Saints). Seiya has the strength of a middle-level Gold Saint.



Hades' war occurs in 1991. Assassin's setting is in the modern era. There are even touch screen phones and other modern technology lying around. And this is based on the real Earth. Most likely it corresponds to Assassin's starting sate: 2014, just like how the Classic began around 1986/1987.

No, he definitely doesn't have the strength of a middle-level Gold Saint. Shiryu was still wailed on even after he donned the Gold Cloth (who Shura admitted was powerful), and both Aiolia and Shura were stomped by Aiolos' techs unlike Seiya who knocked them away. Seiya is just that strong that even while weakened, he still retains his power. Kronos, for instance, is also a formidable force while weakened.


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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

Fang said:


> No.
> 
> The attack is already upon him when he reacts to Aiolos' Lightning Flame. When Aiolos uses Lightning Telos, the attack has already reached him when he decides to use Another Dimension.
> 
> ...



Never said that, and Saga clearly says "Aiolos" before tanking the attack while Shura pretty much thinks "Damn, the entire Underworld is set on fire".

Also, you love to brag about how an injured and senses deprived Shura and Saga were able to stalemate the AE of some healthy Gold Saints (which rivaled a Big Bang nonetheless), yet in this case, you say, "Oops, jk, they were weakened lol, never mind. Aiolos is weak lolololol. He would never be able to rival an actual AE", even though they were not as weakened. We have seen time and time again that injured Saints can perform quite well in battle conditions and sometimes even become stronger than they were before.

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## Gutts X3 (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Hades' war occurs in 1991. Assassin's setting is in the modern era. There are even touch screen phones and other modern technology lying around. And this is based on the real Earth. Most likely it corresponds to Assassin's starting sate: 2014, just like how the Classic began around 1986/1987.
> 
> No, he definitely doesn't have the strength of a middle-level Gold Saint. Shiryu was still wailed on even after he donned the Gold Cloth (who Shura admitted was powerful), and both Aiolia and Shura were stomped by Aiolos' techs unlike Seiya who knocked them away. Seiya is just that strong that even while weakened, he still retains his power. Kronos, for instance, is also a formidable force while weakened.


Is possible that in the universe of SS there is better technology. For example in the anime are presented the Steel Saints or phones with video call. In Assassin does not indicate a precise date, but it is possible that they were not so many years.

Seiya is in a bad condition by the curse, and he also did not train to improve his skills, is impossible that he has all his strength to the maximum. In this aspect Seiya seems to be the weakest of the Bronze Saints and his powers is the of a Gold Saint of a middle-level Gold Saint. Shiryu admits he's pathetic after his fight against Sigurd. Hyoga also indicates that Deathmask has fearsome power. This does not mean that Deathmask is a powerful Gold Saint (is possible that Deathmask is the weakest).

Aiolos knows the techniques of Aiolia and a technique does not work twice against a Saint. And Aiolia or Shura were ready to attack Aiolos. Seiya only intervened to keep them from fighting.
Assassin 48:

*Spoiler*: __


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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Is possible that in the universe of SS there is better technology. For example in the anime are presented the Steel Saints or phones with video call. In Assassin does not indicate a precise date, but it is possible that they were not so many years.
> 
> Seiya is in a bad condition by the curse, and he also did not train to improve his skills, is impossible that he has all his strength to the maximum. In this aspect Seiya seems to be the weakest of the Bronze Saints and his powers is the of a Gold Saint of a middle-level Gold Saint. *Shiryu admits he's pathetic after his fight against Sigurd.* Hyoga also indicates that Deathmask has fearsome power. This does not mean that Deathmask is a powerful Gold Saint (is possible that Deathmask is the weakest).
> 
> ...



When did he ever say that? Hyoga stated that Deathmask's power was dreadful, as in, it was a kind of "evilish" power. Not that it was amazing, or anything like that. Seiya is quite clearly powerful than any Gold Saint in Assassin barring Aiolos and maybe Lancelot. Shiryu gets wrecked by an even lesser version of Sigurd.

Also, your point about Aiolos knowing Aiolia's techniques is a moot point. His Lightning Bolt wouldn't have worked on him regardless. And the main thing here is Shura and Aiolia couldn't block Aiolos' attacks while Seiya could.

Oh, and do you really think Shura and Aiolia would have been able to stop Aiolos' attack had Seiya not interfered? The very same Shura, who later on got a powerful weapon and was pretty much amped by his teacher, that couldn't stop the very same Aiolos' Lightning Telios?

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## Fang (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Never said that, and Saga clearly says "Aiolos" before tanking the attack while Shura pretty much thinks "Damn, the entire Underworld is set on fire".







Are you blind?

The attack is already happening and in effect when Saga says Aiolos' name.



> Also, you love to brag about how an injured and senses deprived Shura and Saga were able to stalemate the AE of some healthy Gold Saints (which rivaled a Big Bang nonetheless), yet in this case, you say, "Oops, jk, they were weakened lol, never mind. Aiolos is weak lolololol. He would never be able to rival an actual AE", even though they were not as weakened. We have seen time and time again that injured Saints can perform quite well in battle conditions and sometimes even become stronger than they were before.



So Shura questioning Saga's ability to fight while he's still covered in wounds and bleeding even after getting the Gemini Gold Cloth from Pope Kanon, and Shura being wounded and already exhausted from his fight with Chakravartin are clearly going to be ignored now? Good god, you are quite unbelievably daft.

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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

The attack is in action of being initiated, but Saga was not hit until the very next panel. He had quite an ample bit of time to do something about it, and he noticed it happening before it hit him. It's not a sneak attack.

Shura was constantly questioning Saga if he's okay, but he's a huge worrywart in this manga in general, constantly attempting to interfere into fights (like with Shiryu). Saga was much more healthier than he was when he shot the AE in Classic.

And I'm not pretending that they weren't injured, they were. But they were much more healthier than in Classic when tehy shot off their AE and Saints have time and time again shown that they can fight just fine even during injuries as long as they burn their Cosmo. Their AE + Rhada pouring his Cosmo in was very impressive. More impressive than what Saga has done so far in Sho. No need for ad hominem though, I know you can't do without them, but still.

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## tivanenk (Jan 23, 2017)

Now you're just playing semantics. It's quite obvious that by "got attacked", I meant that he was "hit". It doesn't change my point whatsoever. Saga already knew that he was going to get hit, it wasn't a sneak attack. A sneak attack is when someone gets hit without knowledge of it. If someone clearly displays his intent, it's not a sneak attack, it's a dead on challenge.

Or do you consider the trio's AE to be a sneak attack as well? Since Aiolos didn't know that it was coming until it actually occurred.

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## Id (Jan 23, 2017)

It stands to reason that Saga is not dumb enough to belive he is not going be attacked when he appeared. He is effectively jumping in the line of fire to rescue Shura from the antagonizer.

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## Fang (Jan 23, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Now you're just playing semantics.



You don't know what semantics means either for that matter.

You said Saga stated Aiolos name before he was attacked, it was literally the inverse of this. This is textbook common sense 101, kiddo.



> It's quite obvious that by "got attacked", I meant that he was "hit".



You were arguing Saga was already aware of Aiolos' attack on him and claimed he said his name indicating somehow that Saga was already under the belief he knew Aiolos was gunning for him right then and there. The manga shows again, the opposite of this. Which is continually demonstrated with Saga's back to the attack and him turning his face partly as he says Aiolos' name for the viewer.

Not buying it.



> It doesn't change my point whatsoever. Saga already knew that he was going to get hit, it wasn't a sneak attack.



The point of contention you goal post moving fallacy-abusing disingenuous poster, is that you claimed Saga had perfect awareness of the attack before it happened. Now you are shifting your argument and claim that Saga knew he was going to get "hit" no matter what, which is not your initial or original claim.

Are you incapable of debating honestly?



> A sneak attack is when someone gets hit without knowledge of it. If someone clearly displays his intent, it's not a sneak attack, it's a dead on challenge.



A sneak attack or cheap shot is attacking somehow in a dishonest manner. Aiolos shooting his attack at a naked Saga's back who realizes it just as it hits is the epitome of a sneak attack, launching an attack to catch the opponent whose off-guard or unaware of it.

This is what Aiolos did.

The scanslations that you work towards even show this as I posted them.

There is no wiggle room around this.



> Or do you consider the trio's AE to be a sneak attack as well? Since Aiolos didn't know that it was coming until it actually occurred.



Do you consider the fact that your nonsensical comparisons aren't going to work? Because the example doesn't fly and no one is falling for it.


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## NightmareCinema (Jan 23, 2017)

It doesn't matter what continuity you guys use, what timeline, what version, etc. Much like Ikki getting decked in the face by a Gemini or Seiya ending up in a wheelchair, it's a multiversal constant as well that Saga will always make Aiolos feel right at home six feet under the ground.

/thread

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## Gutts X3 (Jan 24, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> When did he ever say that? Hyoga stated that Deathmask's power was dreadful, as in, it was a kind of "evilish" power. Not that it was amazing, or anything like that. Seiya is quite clearly powerful than any Gold Saint in Assassin barring Aiolos and maybe Lancelot. Shiryu gets wrecked by an even lesser version of Sigurd.
> 
> Also, your point about Aiolos knowing Aiolia's techniques is a moot point. His Lightning Bolt wouldn't have worked on him regardless. And the main thing here is Shura and Aiolia couldn't block Aiolos' attacks while Seiya could.
> 
> Oh, and do you really think Shura and Aiolia would have been able to stop Aiolos' attack had Seiya not interfered? The very same Shura, who later on got a powerful weapon and was pretty much amped by his teacher, that couldn't stop the very same Aiolos' Lightning Telios?


Shiryu mentions: "Was I able to prove my worth to Shura?. I'm pathetic. I couldn't even protect him". Hyoga is impressed with the power of Deathmask, those words not have importance in the manga, considering that Shiryu seems more than a real Gold. No, the power of Seiya is currently the mid-level of the Gold Saints, is weaker that an elite Gold. Is because Seiya is weakened by the curse of Hades, he can not fight as before is even weaker that in the Classic. In this case Hyoga, Ikki or Shun are stronger than Seiya (in the old generation: Shaka, Saga, Kanon, Dohko, Shion), even the Gladiators (like the unnamed gladiator) are impressed by the power of Shun close to the power of Shaka.

Aiolos is the master of Aiolia, he knows all the techniques of Leo, and this version of Sagittarius (of the alternative world) attacks with improved techniques to those used by Leo. The same technique does not work twice against a Saint (is a basic principle in the combats of the Saints).

At that moment the Gold Saints thought to stop the attack of Aiolos with his techniques. Seiya only prevented that the Saints continued whit the fight because he trusted in Aiolos (or Aiolos of his world). Shura was severely injured in his fight against Chakravartin.


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## tivanenk (Jan 24, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Shiryu mentions: "Was I able to prove my worth to Shura?. I'm pathetic. I couldn't even protect him". Hyoga is impressed with the power of Deathmask, those words not have importance in the manga, considering that Shiryu seems more than a real Gold. No, the power of Seiya is currently the mid-level of the Gold Saints, is weaker that an elite Gold. Is because Seiya is weakened by the curse of Hades, he can not fight as before is even weaker that in the Classic. In this case Hyoga, Ikki or Shun are stronger than Seiya (in the old generation: Shaka, Saga, Kanon, Dohko, Shion), even the Gladiators (like the unnamed gladiator) are impressed by the power of Shun close to the power of Shaka.
> 
> Aiolos is the master of Aiolia, he knows all the techniques of Leo, and this version of Sagittarius (of the alternative world) attacks with improved techniques to those used by Leo. The same technique does not work twice against a Saint (is a basic principle in the combats of the Saints).
> 
> At that moment the Gold Saints thought to stop the attack of Aiolos with his techniques. Seiya only prevented that the Saints continued whit the fight because he trusted in Aiolos (or Aiolos of his world). Shura was severely injured in his fight against Chakravartin.



Now you're just taking things out of context. Shiryu only said that because he fell unconscious after his fight with Sigurd and he was guilt ridden about it. Shura himself stated that Shiryu's power is great. Also, considering the Shiryu already had become mid to high tier Gold Saint even back when he was a Bronze Saint, it's quite disingenuous to think he's become weaker all of a sudden after all these years, especially since he would need to build up Cosmo to compensate for his eyesight. Hyoga was never impressed by Deathmask's power, he only stated that it's a demonic power that strikes fear into his opponents. Also, no Gladiator was ever impressed by Shun's power, in fact, it was Shura who was amazed by Shun's power.

Your second paragraph has nothing to do with anything, Aiolia was weak, that's all there is. By that logic, you would think Saga wouldn't be scared faceless about Aiolos' Lightning Flame later on, but nope, he had to use Galaxian Explosion just to stave it off. Also, this is the first time that Aiolos sees Lightning Bolt from this version of Aiolia, so the adaptation isn't as effective.

And the Gold Saints wouldn't have been to deflect Aiolos' attack regardless. According to you, they were weakened. I mean totally, it's not like Aiolos was simply stronger than them. And it's not like Seiya just had his heart stop beating and was extremely exhausted from his fight with Sigurd and had taken a beating from him. Nope, Seiya was totally fine and not severely injured when he did that. Seriously, Seiya is vastly stronger than 2 mid tier Gold Saints by that point, without his Cloth, compared to an amped high tier Shura with a Cloth who wasn't able to stop Aiolos' Lightning Telios.

Also, Fang's argument makes no sense. He would probably consider me winding up a punch for three seconds before throwing it into someone's face a sneak attack, even though they had enough time to prepare to a counter move.

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## SF latif (Jan 24, 2017)

seiya is weakened by the curse of hades, yes. but not to the point he can master less cosmos than high-tier gold saints bruh 

seiya even in his very exhusted form (I.E after his fight sigurd), could still deflect a Teilos from Aiolos who Shura with his newly technique, Eclipse Calibur, couldn`t. he is far above mid-tier at this point. it`s abvious af


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Also, Fang's argument makes no sense. He would probably consider me winding up a punch for three seconds before throwing it into someone's face a sneak attack, even though they had enough time to prepare to a counter move.



I like how I called out your post, gave a detailed explanation for why you are wrong, caught you red handed changing your arguments and claims and you just again resort to the "nah", even though I even posted evidence from the manga itself showing you wrong.

Just another day in your life of denying reality I guess.


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## trexalfa (Jan 24, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Saintia Sho continue with the argument of the Classic and Next Dimension (in the manga is presented a summary of the battle in the Sanctuary, the Olympus and the Temple of the Moon: the Satellites, Callisto and Artemis).  In the last interview of Kouri it was indicated that Kurumada supervises the history and contributed with details or the general draft to follow of the history of the manga.
> 
> In this case Aiolos is weaker than a god like Athena or even the Twin Gods/Hypnos or Thanatos in the Classic (for the moment). The best feat of Aioros is fight with Gold Saints weakened and injured, who were affected by the power of the Underworld. And Saga surpassed two Gold Saints (to the maximum) with the half of his power and is much more powerful as a god (is comparable with Athena and Eris).


Is there any damn mention of people getting nerfed when in the Underworld in Assassin? If so, scans please. Cause the only nerf related shit I remember from the Classic Manga is the barrier around Hades' Castle on Earth, and it was specifically there. There's no nerf present in Meikai itself. Hell, Kanon said so when facing Radamanthys for the first time. He wasn't nerfed like Mu, Milo and Aiolia were when facing him. The thing about Meikai is that setting foot in it without the 8th Sense means Hades has total owner rights over your soul.

Also

>God Cloth Seiya
>Weaker than mid tier Gold Saints even while still suffering from Hades' Curse.

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## Fang (Jan 24, 2017)

The entrance to Makai was a barrier created by Hades that reduced a Saint's power and Cosmos to 1/10th its normal level. Outside of that we don't know but Saga does say the underworld is trying to "drag them down", which may imply some kind of influence. It might've been something similar to Pontos using the pressure of Tartaros to slow down and weaken the Cosmos of the Titans when the Gold Saints invaded.

That's all we know so far.


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## SF latif (Jan 24, 2017)

trexalfa said:


> >God Cloth Seiya
> >Weaker than mid tier Gold Saints even while still suffering from Hades' Curse.


seiya did not even had his god cloth. he could barely stand his ground from exhustion  

and still mastered enough cosmos to deflect Teilos from Aiolos

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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 24, 2017)

IIRC Shura partially giving in to the Baphomet Surplice during his duel with Chakravarting accelerated the process of the Underworld trying to "drag him down" so it's probably something akin to a much more powerful version of the Underworld Waves Deathmask and co use.

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## Gutts X3 (Jan 24, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Now you're just taking things out of context. Shiryu only said that because he fell unconscious after his fight with Sigurd and he was guilt ridden about it. Shura himself stated that Shiryu's power is great. Also, considering the Shiryu already had become mid to high tier Gold Saint even back when he was a Bronze Saint, it's quite disingenuous to think he's become weaker all of a sudden after all these years, especially since he would need to build up Cosmo to compensate for his eyesight. Hyoga was never impressed by Deathmask's power, he only stated that it's a demonic power that strikes fear into his opponents. Also, no Gladiator was ever impressed by Shun's power, in fact, it was Shura who was amazed by Shun's power.
> 
> Your second paragraph has nothing to do with anything, Aiolia was weak, that's all there is. By that logic, you would think Saga wouldn't be scared faceless about Aiolos' Lightning Flame later on, but nope, he had to use Galaxian Explosion just to stave it off. Also, this is the first time that Aiolos sees Lightning Bolt from this version of Aiolia, so the adaptation isn't as effective.
> 
> And the Gold Saints wouldn't have been to deflect Aiolos' attack regardless. According to you, they were weakened. I mean totally, it's not like Aiolos was simply stronger than them. And it's not like Seiya just had his heart stop beating and was extremely exhausted from his fight with Sigurd and had taken a beating from him. Nope, Seiya was totally fine and not severely injured when he did that. Seriously, Seiya is vastly stronger than 2 mid tier Gold Saints by that point, without his Cloth, compared to an amped high tier Shura with a Cloth who wasn't able to stop Aiolos' Lightning Telios.


Shiryu indicates how pathetic he is. The impress a Gold is not impressive, the Golds are impressed by the Bronze in the next dimension, but the Golds are stronger. In this case Hyoga indicates that Deathmask has a fearsome power. The Bronze Saints does not maintain their maximum power in this case Shiryu in the ND lost against Ecarlate (even with the power up of the dragon's pearl). Lol, Shiryu is recovering his eyesight naturally (indicated in Next Dimension). The Gladiator (unnamed) is impressed by the power of Shun (Gladiator: what…? what is this powerful pressure?!. it’s so calm, yet fearsome and intimidating at the same time… it’s almost as if though it belongs to a divine will!!.), and Shun has been training to become in a dignified successor to Virgo not as Shiryu.

No, only his brother knows his techniques. In this case Saga was weakened and injured, and he was not expected the attack of Aiolos. In this case Aiolos is a simple Gold, the only thing that increases its strength is the ninth sense, but at a level below a god.

You have not read the next dimension. The injured weaken the cosmos of the Saints. A good example is Suikyo's fight against Deathtoll. In this case Seiya to the maximum in the Classic with his God Cloth surpasses the power of Aiolos. But in Assassin, Seiya is weakened by the curse of Hades, even Seiya indicates that he can not fight as before.


trexalfa said:


> >God Cloth Seiya
> >Weaker than mid tier Gold Saints even while still suffering from Hades' Curse.


The fake God Cloth with colors of a Bronze Cloth?. The true God Cloth in the continuity of the manga is golden and Seiya only reached the true God Cloth for a second defeating Sigurd with a hit.

The strength of a God Saint changes depending of the series. In Soul of Gold several God Saint had a lower power to Saga or an elite Gold. A good example Aioria with God Cloth fights in equality with Frodi at the beginning of the series or Dohko, Saga and Mu fought better against Andreas that Aiolia with God Cloth.


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## Sablés (Jan 24, 2017)

Aiolia was nerfed to hell by the tree and had a fake God Cloth. While at full strength, he easily beats Frodi with just his regular leo cloth

The God warriors in SoG were mostly second stringers who a Gold Saint wouldn't have much trouble with ordinarily.


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## SF latif (Jan 24, 2017)

Frodi surviving a hit from god cloth aiolia was nothing but an outlier tbh


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## Gutts X3 (Jan 24, 2017)

Saga affected by the Yggdrasil (and Saga was closer to Yggdrasil than Aioria) fights with two God Warriors and Camus at the same time.


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## Sablés (Jan 24, 2017)

Saga shits on Aiolia, what's new?

and even then, two of the god warriors and Camus were able to no-sell his strongest attack.

You're not really making an adequate comparison here.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2017)




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## tivanenk (Jan 25, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Shiryu indicates how pathetic he is. The impress a Gold is not impressive, the Golds are impressed by the Bronze in the next dimension, but the Golds are stronger. In this case Hyoga indicates that Deathmask has a fearsome power. The Bronze Saints does not maintain their maximum power in this case Shiryu in the ND lost against Ecarlate (even with the power up of the dragon's pearl). Lol, Shiryu is recovering his eyesight naturally (indicated in Next Dimension). The Gladiator (unnamed) is impressed by the power of Shun (Gladiator: what…? what is this powerful pressure?!. it’s so calm, yet fearsome and intimidating at the same time… it’s almost as if though it belongs to a divine will!!.), and Shun has been training to become in a dignified successor to Virgo not as Shiryu.
> 
> No, only his brother knows his techniques. In this case Saga was weakened and injured, and he was not expected the attack of Aiolos. In this case Aiolos is a simple Gold, the only thing that increases its strength is the ninth sense, but at a level below a god.
> 
> ...



All of your own opinions are rendered moot by the fact that Seiya without a Cloth can reflect something even an amped Shura with a Cloth can't. You're taking both Shiryu and Hyoga's statements out of context.

And no, the God Cloth Seiya was wearing wasn't fake. And no, it never turned gold in the Assassin, it only radiated a golden light. Pay better attention (and lol at me not reading ND).

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## Id (Sep 17, 2017)

Bump. 

We got updated info since then.


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 17, 2017)

Saga was knocked out by Athena's staff and it seems that was the plan all along, where does  God saga stand now?

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## GiveRobert20dollars (Sep 17, 2017)

1 Knocked out whole God > 1 dead chopped up lion

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## Id (Sep 17, 2017)

Aiolos Killing Zeus > Saga getting his ass stomped by Athena.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2017)

>alternate reality Zeus whose nothing compared to the real thing

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## Id (Sep 17, 2017)

Did I forget to mention this is Saga as a Host of Ares with a Divine Cloth got wtf crushed by a Clothless Athena.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2017)

>still an alternate reality Zeus whose practically featless while the same Aiolos gets stopped by three near dead Gold Saints and humiliated by Pope Kanon

Ayyyy

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## ebonyLogic (Sep 17, 2017)

Reading the manga now, Athena wanted to be captured making the feat irrelevant and was one shot by a clothless Athena. Still he was not outright right killed which should mean something. Aiolos defeated with the combined might of the other saints defeated zeus who is multiversal. Aiolos defeated the avatar of zeus, Hades avatar is easily above God cloth bronze saints. Aiolos can't take the full scale do to the avatar not being 100% but zeus is likely well above hades in power so it's still a great feat.   At this point  Aiolos should take it easy.

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## Id (Sep 17, 2017)

Same Aiolos that tanked Athena's Exclamation without wearing his cloth and taking zero damage.

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## ebonyLogic (Sep 17, 2017)

To quote Mathew when I asked the scaling question. 

"It's pretty obvious that the Parallel World is a split-timeline of the main universe. They reference Aiolia killing the Titans with the Keraunos (Episode G), and they treat Zeus's War as being the Final War, implying that there were others before (Which is confirmed by Hades' appearance in Shun's body).

Also Alice way back in Chapter 11 or so said that for every world that exists, a "Mirror World" also exists, so this parallel universe is a mirror of the main universe.

And all the Gold Saints from that universe are stronger than their main universe counterparts, so far.

And it's also been stated / implied that both universes will merge and become one again.

So yes, you can scale AU Zeus to MU Zeus, since it's basically the same character."

So yes at this point we can safely assume that zeus was equally as strong.

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## Fang (Sep 17, 2017)

>you can scale AU Zeus to MU Zeus
No you can't.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 17, 2017)

>bumping this thread

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## Id (Sep 17, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> To quote Mathew when I asked the scaling question.
> 
> "It's pretty obvious that the Parallel World is a split-timeline of the main universe. They reference Aiolia killing the Titans with the Keraunos (Episode G), and they treat Zeus's War as being the Final War, implying that there were others before (Which is confirmed by Hades' appearance in Shun's body).
> 
> ...



Lets not ignore Saga, Deathmask, and Shura completely scale. And despite their best efforts plus support from Rhada and Kanon (who also scale), could only run for their dear lives. 3 Gold Saints with their Gold Cloths vs clothless Aiolos best effort amounted to dish out Athena Exclamation and run. 

Run Motherfuckers. Run!!!

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## Gutts X3 (Sep 17, 2017)

Id said:


> Did I forget to mention this is Saga as a Host of Ares with a Divine Cloth got wtf crushed by a Clothless Athena.


Saga is not host of Ares, it is only the evil spirit (evil personality) of Saga with a new body. He only becomes the new god of war, taking the place of Ares. Athena with her cosmos to the maximum and using the power of the goddess nike. It is the power of two goddesses to the maximum.

Aiolos could only defeat Zeus with the help of all the Gold Saints. He is weaker than the goddess Athena, even Tomoe (half of power or half of Athena) is superior to Aiolos.


ebonyLogic said:


> "It's pretty obvious that the Parallel World is a split-timeline of the main universe. They reference Aiolia killing the Titans with the Keraunos (Episode G), and they treat Zeus's War as being the Final War, implying that there were others before (Which is confirmed by Hades' appearance in Shun's body).


The lost world is a world completely different of the main world. The Bronze Saints are weaker than the Bronze Saints of the main universe.

You can not scale to Zeus of the Lost World with Zeus of the Main Universe.


> Also Alice way back in Chapter 11 or so said that for every world that exists, a "Mirror World" also exists, so this parallel universe is a mirror of the main universe.


This is the world of the mirror of Lewis Carroll in the history: *Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There.*
7th gate


> And all the Gold Saints from that universe are stronger than their main universe counterparts, so far.


Not only Aiolos is stronger by the ninth sense. The rest of the Saints is for the power of the "dance" (the power of Yoshino and Tomoe, Athena), the power that transforms the Gold Cloths into God Cloths permanently.


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 17, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The lost world is a world completely different of the main world. The Bronze Saints are weaker than the Bronze Saints of the main universe.
> 
> You can not scale to Zeus of the Lost World with Zeus of the Main Universe.
> 
> ...




Bronze saints being weaker is a theory you had with no evidence to, just assumptions you had that no one agreed with and not fact, So at the moment yes he scales.

Sho  saga is unquantifiable at this point while Aiolos has shown to be universal+multi-universal, so again Aiolos win's.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 17, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> Bronze saints being weaker is a theory you had with no evidence to, just assumptions you had that no one agreed with and not fact, So at the moment yes he scales.
> 
> Sho  saga is unquantifiable at this point while Aiolos has shown to be universal+multi-universal, so again Aiolos win's.


The Bronze Saints are defeated by God in a human body, even their God Cloths are not gold like in the Main Universe. In the Main Universe the Bronze Saints fought against Hades with his true body and surplice, and when they fought together their power could damage the god. Is another universe with a different story to the main universe. You can not scale to Zeus of the Lost World with Zeus of the Main Universe.

Saga can resist an attack of the goddess to the maximum, and can leave unconscious to the goddess with an attack, even its spirit resists the power of the shield of Athena. Aiolos only fought against three Gold Saints debilitated, and can only defeat Zeus (another universe) with the help of all the Saints, even Tomoe (half of the power or half of Athena) is superior to Aiolos.


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 17, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The Bronze Saints are defeated by God in a human body. In the Main Universe the Bronze Saints fought against Hades with his true body and surplice, and when they fought together their power could damage the god, even their God Cloths are not gold like in the Main Universe. Is another universe with a different story to the main universe.
> 
> Saga can resist an attack of the goddess to the maximum, and can leave unconscious to the goddess with an attack, even its spirit resists the power of the shield of Athena. Aiolos only fought against three Gold Saints debilitated, and can only defeat Zeus (another universe) with the help of all the Saints, even Tomoe (half of the power or half of Athena) is superior to Aiolos.




Hades true body>>>Shun Hades>>>>God saints in bronze cloth it's just that simple.

Non of that can really be scaled in terms of power sense he was knocked out. 3 saints and a judge using EA while clothless. He simply has better feats then anything saga has ever did.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 17, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> Hades true body>>>Shun Hades>>>>God saints in bronze cloth it's just that simple.
> 
> Non of that can really be scaled in terms of power sense he was knocked out. 3 saints and a judge using EA while clothless. He simply has better feats then anything saga has ever did.


No, the power of Hades with his true body is far superior  to the power of God in a human body. In the main universe the Bronze Saints fight with Hades with his true body and surplice, they damaged the god with their combined power.
Hades with his true body >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hades in a human body.
Bronze Saints (main universe with golden god cloths) >>>>>>>>> Bronze Saints (lost world without golden god cloths).
The answer is the same.
You can not scale to Zeus of the Lost World with Zeus of the Main Universe.

Fight with a goddess to the maximum and resist his most powerful attack is impressive. God Saga (without Gold Cloths) with the half of his power (before absorbing all the power of discord) is superior to Aiolia and Milo. The power of three Gold Saints (weakened) and a Judge overcame the power of his most powerful technique with ease.


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## Sablés (Sep 17, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> three Gold Saints (weakened)


Does this really matter in Saint Seiya?

Because as far as I know, Saints are some of the most resilient fuckers around. Hell, the sanctuary saga that's in multiple installments involves bronzies going through a gauntlet of gold saints with barely any rest in-between. Doesn't stop them from going leaps and bounds beyond their previous selves by achieving miracles..

And even a weakened Saga, Shura and Camus could still produce enough power to match the AE of  Mu, Aiolia and Milo.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2017)

Sablés said:


> And even a weakened Saga, Shura and Camus could still produce enough power to match the AE of  Mu, Aiolia and Milo.



You mean massively weakened. The traitor trio had lost their five senses to Shaka but were still trucking on due to the 7th Sense.


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## Sablés (Sep 17, 2017)

Fang said:


> You mean massively weakened. The traitor trio had lost their five senses to Shaka but were still trucking on due to the 7th Sense.


That and including how the three had broken surplices, which even at their best are inferior to Gold cloths.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 18, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Does this really matter in Saint Seiya?
> 
> Because as far as I know, Saints are some of the most resilient fuckers around. Hell, the sanctuary saga that's in multiple installments involves bronzies going through a gauntlet of gold saints with barely any rest in-between. Doesn't stop them from going leaps and bounds beyond their previous selves by achieving miracles..
> 
> And even a weakened Saga, Shura and Camus could still produce enough power to match the AE of  Mu, Aiolia and Milo.


In that moment the Gold Saints were not in the underworld (Saga is an owl and Shura fought with all his power against Trivikramasena), and the loss of the senses can increase the cosmos for a moment (as Ikki explains in the fight against Shaka).

In Next Dimension, Suikyo is very weakened by his fight against the Gold Saints, as Dohko and Deathtoll explain to him, even Dohko (a rookie Gold Saint) defeats and surpasses Suikyo in the combat. Shijima is weakened by his fight against Cardinale and Shaka.


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## tivanenk (Sep 18, 2017)

Hint: AU Zeus defeated Cronus and stripped the protection off Athena's Sanctuary. Also, since this universe is heavily implied to be the same as Ep.G's, then you all will have to downplay that precious Saga vs. Cronus fight I know you all so love.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Id (Sep 18, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Hint: AU Zeus defeated Cronus and stripped the protection off Athena's Sanctuary. Also, since this universe is heavily implied to be the same as Ep.G's, then you all will have to downplay that precious Saga vs. Cronus fight I know you all so love.


And its not just that. 

If Aiolos killed a Featless Zeus. Than God Saga got lol stomped by an equally featless Athena. Athena has not done much of anything, as she is also not canonical to Main Saint Seiya-verse.



Gutts X3 said:


> The Bronze Saints are defeated by God in a human body, even their God Cloths are not gold like in the Main Universe. In the Main Universe the Bronze Saints fought against Hades with his true body and surplice, and when they fought together their power could damage the god. Is another universe with a different story to the main universe. You can not scale to Zeus of the Lost World with Zeus of the Main Universe.
> 
> Saga can resist an attack of the goddess to the maximum, and can leave unconscious to the goddess with an attack, even its spirit resists the power of the shield of Athena. Aiolos only fought against three Gold Saints debilitated, and can only defeat Zeus (another universe) with the help of all the Saints, even Tomoe (half of the power or half of Athena) is superior to Aiolos.


Sticking to the main point. 

I get it, perspective is reality especially when it comes to debating characters in the OBD. However what Saga did to Athena does not compare to Aiolos vs Zeus. 

Saga launched a sneak attack on Athena and Flash K.O.ed her. The problem is, this was all part of Athena's plan. The fact that Athena anticipated and played possum puts a "HUGE" question mark on said feat, meaning Saga may not have had the power to K.O. her in a straight up match. This is confirmed when when Saga ONCE AGAIN decides to attack what he assumes to be a helpless Athena (lol again), and Athena overwhelms him and crushes his transgression along with his God Cloth. Look at the end of the Chapter, Saga is about to be put to sleep but is saved thanks to Eris. 

On the other hand Aiolos killed Zeus in his true body and soul which is legit as fuck. Only his astral self remained, and Zeus conscious claimed Aiolia as he is the chosen body/host in that reality. Yes Aiolos holds back Zeus conscious from attacking, but the fact Aiolos awakens the 9th sense and proceeds to crush (and I mean CRUSH) Zeus/Aiolia along with his Gold Armor makes it a confirm kill and a feat that is laughably greater than God Saga getting stomped by Athena.


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## Sablés (Sep 18, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> In that moment the Gold Saints were not in the underworld (Saga is an owl and Shura fought with all his power against Trivikramasena), and the loss of the senses can increase the cosmos for a moment (as Ikki explains in the fight against Shaka).
> 
> In Next Dimension, Suikyo is very weakened by his fight against the Gold Saints, as Dohko and Deathtoll explain to him, even Dohko (a rookie Gold Saint) defeats and surpasses Suikyo in the combat. Shijima is weakened by his fight against Cardinale and Shaka.


What is your point? My argument is that saints in pivotal moments can overcome issues like stamina and damage by raising their cosmo. The Bronze Saints prove this time and again.


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## tivanenk (Sep 18, 2017)

Id said:


> And its not just that.
> 
> If Aiolos killed a Featless Zeus. Than God Saga got lol stomped by an equally featless Athena. Athena has not done much of anything, as she is also not canonical to Main Saint Seiya-verse.
> 
> ...



I think it's laughable that some people are still using the 'cloth color scheme' argument, considering it is very clear by this point that Okada is following the anime coloring scheme, and maybe mixing in manga hair colors occasionally. Nevertheless, it's not part of the story and shouldn't be used as an argument.

And where do people get that host bodies are weaker all of a sudden? Because Julian? Well, Poseidon hadn't exactly finished taking over and integrating his soul into the body. Because Alone? Well, his soul resisted Hades long enough, and Hades never really got full control until his soul was kind of forced out by Tenma and Athena, and even then Alone was still resisting. We never saw a full takeover yet, and it was never stated in the stories that host bodies are weaker than true bodies. It was most likely a faulty assumption by us.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Id (Sep 18, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> I think it's laughable that some people are still using the 'cloth color scheme' argument, considering it is very clear by this point that Okada is following the anime coloring scheme, and maybe mixing in manga hair colors occasionally. Nevertheless, it's not part of the story and shouldn't be used as an argument.
> 
> And where do people get that host bodies are weaker all of a sudden? Because Julian? Well, Poseidon hadn't exactly finished taking over and integrating his soul into the body. Because Alone? Well, his soul resisted Hades long enough, and Hades never really got full control until his soul was kind of forced out by Tenma and Athena, and even then Alone was still resisting. We never saw a full takeover yet, and it was never stated in the stories that host bodies are weaker than true bodies. It was most likely a faulty assumption by us.



Deplorable theories are a result of poor fact analysis.


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## Fang (Sep 18, 2017)

Still waiting for evidence AU Zeus and Cronos have the same scaling as the real continuity versions of them


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## Id (Sep 18, 2017)

@tivanenk two questions. 
1) Is there a Cronos for ever reality, or just One Cronos for the entire Multiverse?
2) At this point Shouldn't AU Zeus scale to AU Hades Shun?


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## tivanenk (Sep 18, 2017)

Id said:


> @tivanenk two questions.
> 1) Is there a Cronos for ever reality, or just One Cronos for the entire Multiverse?
> 2) At this point Shouldn't AU Zeus scale to AU Hades Shun?



1) No confirmation as of yet, but here's the deal. If there's only one Cronos, then the Zeus who defeated him is singular as well due to logistics, which means that there's no such thing as an AU Zeus and Aiolos gets direct scaling from him and Cronos. If there's one for every reality, then the assumption that Ep. G Cronos affected the multiverse is faulty, as only time was ever mentioned, which Matt took to mean the multiverse. But that would not be the case. Either way, Saga fans lose out on something, they need to compromise. Most likely there's one for every reality due to there being different Athena's and shit (even if it is Chaos Athena and Yoshino).

2) I don't think so. Mainly because Shiryu seems to imply that the universe he's looking at is a completely different one from the Lost World altogether. It seems he's started to penetrate the boundaries between universes and "gaze" and receive memories from a whole lot. Shiryu OP. :')


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## SF latif (Sep 18, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> the assumption that Ep. G Cronos affected the multiverse is faulty, as only time was ever mentioned, which Matt took to mean the multiverse.


time throughout the past, present, and future to be precise.


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## tivanenk (Sep 18, 2017)

SF latif said:


> time throughout the past, present, and future to be precise.



Precisely. Is that a single timeline's worth or any entire set? Who knows.


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## SF latif (Sep 18, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Precisely. Is that a single timeline's worth or any entire set? Who knows.


well, it could be that each "world" has it`s own parallal universes. i think it was mentioned in recent Assassin chapter?
we also see multiple parallal universes being warped inside the Sanctuary in ND (who we assume to be Odysseus doing)


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## tivanenk (Sep 18, 2017)

SF latif said:


> well, it could be that each "world" has it`s own parallal universes. i think it was mentioned in recent Assassin chapter?
> we also see multiple parallal universes being warped inside the Sanctuary in ND (who we assume to be Odysseus doing)



Well, it could be referring to personal universes such as Hades' realm. But the number that we've seen is pretty small thus far. It wouldn't number more than a few dozens per timeline.


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## SF latif (Sep 18, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Well, it could be referring to personal universes such as Hades' realm. But the number that we've seen is pretty small thus far. It wouldn't number more than a few dozens per timeline.


im` pretty excited to see them expand more on the multiverse right now. they seem to be going into megaverse route with this tbvh


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## Id (Sep 18, 2017)

SF latif said:


> well, it could be that each "world" has it`s own parallal universes. i think it was mentioned in recent Assassin chapter?
> we also see multiple parallal universes being warped inside the Sanctuary in ND (who we assume to be Odysseus doing)


Have you gotten a chance to read Chapter 80? Because it implies that goes beyond just its own parallel world.


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## SF latif (Sep 18, 2017)

Id said:


> Have you gotten a chance to read Chapter 80? Because it implies that goes beyond just its own parallel world.


i have been keeping track on every saint seiya series (with the exception of light novels)
and what exactly you mean by that btw?


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## Id (Sep 18, 2017)

@SF latif Ill post the scan and translated it for you. 


```
https://imgur.com/a/2eCfw
```
-  Different universes and worlds exists very close to each other within the Multiverse. Its just that no one is capable of perceiving borders/boundaries between them.

-  But if someone was capable of noticing (or becoming aware), its possible to intermingle/Combine.

-  The reason  for all this Shiryu, is because you were able to perceive (or become aware), you recognized me despite me being from another world and for that reason…the memories of another world have seeped into you.

-  (Shiru) this must mean that this other world…is another…?reality!??

-  That’s right, that world was everything to me.

-  As of this moment the memories of those worlds  are mixing with yours, being from whatever reality they are from.


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## SF latif (Sep 18, 2017)

that`s what i was saying tho

diffrent universes in diffrent worlds.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Id (Sep 18, 2017)

I am going to grab some visuals to make sense of it, because G.A. is throwing a ton of info and expanding structure and lore of its multiverse.


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## Id (Sep 18, 2017)

Realities from Divergent point in time.

```
https://imgur.com/Z89Dyxk
https://imgur.com/2pH6UI7
```
The way that I understood the Multiverse per how it was explained here, is that its multiverse stems from a universe, and from it alternate realities derived from divergent timelines that can hold different presents and futures. Similar to how the Multiverse is visually explained in Marvel.  Kool I dig it.
================================================================================

Realities existing next to each other.

```
https://imgur.com/a/2eCfw

https://imgur.com/2GG1U5G
```
However it was expanded even farther in the recent chapter, since its not just talking of realities from divergent points of time. But you have parallel realities with completely different beginning and endings that exists next to each other. Which would imply that they also hold divergent realities with different presents and futures. I really dig it.

This means that Saint Seiya Multiverse is massively layered and complex.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 18, 2017)

Sablés said:


> What is your point? My argument is that saints in pivotal moments can overcome issues like stamina and damage by raising their cosmo. The Bronze Saints prove this time and again.


In Next Dimension you can see that serious damage or use his energy in powerful techniques affects the stamina and strength of warriors of the level of Gold Saint. For example: Shijima and Suikyo


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## Sablés (Sep 18, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> In Next Dimension you can see that serious damage or use his energy in powerful techniques affects the stamina and strength of warriors of the level of Gold Saint. For example: Shijima and Suikyo


You aren't refuting my point.

Saints *can *bypass these stipulations through cosmo/miracles shit. Once again, Bronzes do it all the fucking time.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 18, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> I think it's laughable that some people are still using the 'cloth color scheme' argument, considering it is very clear by this point that Okada is following the anime coloring scheme, and maybe mixing in manga hair colors occasionally. Nevertheless, it's not part of the story and shouldn't be used as an argument.


The color scheme of the Cloths is used to indicate an increase of power in the story of Episode G Assassin. In the fight against Sigurd, Seiya is more powerful with a God Cloth of golden color (the color of the God Cloth in the Classic) than with the God Cloth with the colors of the Bronze Cloth.


Id said:


> Saga launched a sneak attack on Athena and Flash K.O.ed her. The problem is, this was all part of Athena's plan. The fact that Athena anticipated and played possum puts a "HUGE" question mark on said feat, meaning Saga may not have had the power to K.O. her in a straight up match. This is confirmed when when Saga ONCE AGAIN decides to attack what he assumes to be a helpless Athena (lol again), and Athena overwhelms him and crushes his transgression along with his God Cloth. Look at the end of the Chapter, Saga is about to be put to sleep but is saved thanks to Eris.
> 
> On the other hand Aiolos killed Zeus in his true body and soul which is legit as fuck. Only his astral self remained, and Zeus conscious claimed Aiolia as he is the chosen body/host in that reality. Yes Aiolos holds back Zeus conscious from attacking, but the fact Aiolos awakens the 9th sense and proceeds to crush (and I mean CRUSH) Zeus/Aiolia along with his Gold Armor makes it a confirm kill and a feat that is laughably greater than God Saga getting stomped by Athena.


No, is more impressive because she was the goddess to the maximum. And the goddess is much more powerful than Aiolos, even Tomoe is superior to Aiolos, and Tomoe is only the half of Athena.

The first attack left unconscious to the goddess, but she prepared to Nike for the second attack and she uses a definitive attack with his cosmos to the maximun. Saga does not use a special attack or the galaxian explosion in the second attack. Saga can withstand the attack of Athena with Nike and the attack of the shield (Athena) in the Sanctuary. Eris only appears to destroy the goddess Nike, because Athena uses all its power against Saga.

Aiolos solo did not defeat Zeus. Aiolos had the help of the Saints in the Sanctuary and the goddess Athena, and uses a bow and arrow with the cosmos of Athena. Aiolos solo does not have the power of a god. He only destroyed Zeus in the body of Aiolia, because Aiolia controls his body and allows to attack it. Is an situation similar to the Classic with Hades in the body of Shun, Ikki could defeat Hades with a blow, because Shun controls his body.


Sablés said:


> You aren't refuting my point.
> 
> Saints *can *bypass these stipulations through cosmo/miracles shit. Once again, Bronzes do it all the fucking time.


Seiya did not have the strength for the last attack against Saga, even the Bronze Saints had to help him with his energy for the last attack against Saga. The Saints lose strength and stamina for serious damage and use their energy in a special technique. A Gold Saint like Shijima loses his strength after of his fight against Cardinale and Shaka, and Suikyo loses his strength by his fight against Shion, Ikki, Ox and Abel/Cain.


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## tivanenk (Sep 19, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The color scheme of the Cloths is used to indicate an increase of power in the story of Episode G Assassin. In the fight against Sigurd, Seiya is more powerful with a God Cloth of golden color (the color of the God Cloth in the Classic) than with the God Cloth with the colors of the Bronze Cloth.



Nope.

Re-read that part once more. Seiya's Cloth didn't turn gold like the original. He began _shining a golden light to represent his induction of Miracles._ It states that very crystal clear within the story. Seiya's cloth is its anime color.


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 19, 2017)

> The color scheme of the Cloths is used to indicate an increase of power in the story of Episode G Assassin. In the fight against Sigurd, Seiya is more powerful with a God Cloth of golden color (the color of the God Cloth in the Classic) than with the God Cloth with the colors of the Bronze Cloth.



That is incorrect, Seiya's Cloth shinned do to the infinite potential of man and created a  miracle, this is all the manga. indicates.  



> No, is more impressive because she was the goddess to the maximum. And the goddess is much more powerful than Aiolos, even Tomoe is superior to Aiolos, and Tomoe is only the half of Athena.
> 
> The first attack left unconscious to the goddess, but she prepared to Nike for the second attack and she uses a definitive attack with his cosmos to the maximun. Saga does not use a special attack or the galaxian explosion in the second attack. Saga can withstand the attack of Athena with Nike and the attack of the shield (Athena) in the Sanctuary. Eris only appears to destroy the goddess Nike, because Athena uses all its power against Saga.



Brah I know you jumped head first on the saga bandwagon When God saga appeared but you have to let it go, everything that happened to Athena was all apart of her plan, She made  saga think he was really that strong when he was nowhere near, so that feat is irrelevant .  Right now saga's best feat is getting knocked out by a clothless Athena and it's not enough.



> Aiolos solo did not defeat Zeus. Aiolos had the help of the Saints in the Sanctuary and the goddess Athena, and uses a bow and arrow with the cosmos of Athena. Aiolos solo does not have the power of a god. He only destroyed Zeus in the body of Aiolia, because Aiolia controls his body and allows to attack it.



All of which is more impressive then anything saga has ever done, He contributed  in the defeat of the top 3 strongest character in the series, a character who's power  is levels above that of hades and athena.



> Seiya did not have the strength for the last attack against Saga, even the Bronze Saints had to help him with his energy for the last attack against Saga. The Saints lose strength and stamina for serious damage and use their energy in a special technique. A Gold Saint like Shijima loses his strength after of his fight against Cardinale and Shaka, and Suikyo loses his strength by his fight against Shion, Ikki, Ox and Abel/Cain.



They only show grave loss in energy and stamina  after long onslaught or specific hindrance, seiya fought  hard battles against, black seiya and ikki but right after managed to defeat the silver saint misty. Seiya being able to fight saga at that point at all after what he went through is  another display on   how incredible saint's resilience is. Shijima's weakening came from being struck in the heart, not mounting a offensive  to  carrying Athena.  Suikyo literally had his power cut in half by ikki. Saints stamina is not limitless, It takes a hell of a lot to make a saint weak enough to not use most of there power for an attack power 100%.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 19, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Nope.
> 
> Re-read that part once more. Seiya's Cloth didn't turn gold like the original. He began _shining a golden light to represent his induction of Miracles._ It states that very crystal clear within the story. Seiya's cloth is its anime color.


Nope.

The Cloth becomes golden when Seiya reaches his maximum cosmos for a moment (a miracle), and defeats to Sigurd with a simple blow. The Golden Gold Cloth is the maximum power of Seiya, the power that the Bronze Saints reached against a god like Hades in the Classic. The Cloth with the colors of the anime, is the Cloth that Seiya reaches by the curse of Hades in his body, he does not have all his power as he says it afterwards. The true God Cloth is golden in the Classic, the Cloth that defeats a god like Thanatos (infinitely more powerful than Sigurd).


ebonyLogic said:


> Brah I know you jumped head first on the saga bandwagon When God saga appeared but you have to let it go, everything that happened to Athena was all apart of her plan, She made  saga think he was really that strong when he was nowhere near, so that feat is irrelevant .  Right now saga's best feat is getting knocked out by a clothless Athena and it's not enough.



The plan was to use all of her cosmos to defend herself from the second attack of Saga, but the first attack left unconscious and was captured by Eris in the tree. Is all the power of the goddess Athena with his most powerful weapon, the goddess Nike, the power of two goddesses to the maximum (the Cloth does not grant more powerful to Athena, is only a protection for the goddess, the most powerful weapon is the goddess Nike).


> All of which is more impressive then anything saga has ever done, He contributed  in the defeat of the top 3 strongest character in the series, a character who's power  is levels above that of hades and athena.



Is the power of all Saints in the Sanctuary and Athena, using a weapon with the protection of Athena (a divine weapon). Is a feat of all Saints and Athena. You can not scale to Zeus from the Main Universe with Zeus from Lost World. Aiolos does not have the power of a god like Athena, even the half of Athena is superior to him.


> They only show grave loss in energy and stamina  after long onslaught or specific hindrance, seiya fought  hard battles against, black seiya and ikki but right after managed to defeat the silver saint misty. Seiya being able to fight saga at that point at all after what he went through is  another display on   how incredible saint's resilience is. Shijima's weakening came from being struck in the heart, not mounting a offensive  to  carrying Athena.  Suikyo literally had his power cut in half by ikki. Saints stamina is not limitless, It takes a hell of a lot to make a saint weak enough to not use most of there power for an attack power 100%.


And then he was defeated by a Silver Saint as Asterion, and has problems with a Silver Saint like Jamian (previous fights weakened Seiya), even was damaged by a fall of several meters (a fall, Seiya is very debilitad). Suikyo does not have its power weakened by the attack of Ikki, is only a error in the translation in the english version, in the spanish version (the official color tome of Ivrea) does not say that its power was reduced to the half.


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## SF latif (Sep 19, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The first attack left unconscious to the goddess


key word pretended to get knocked out by saga



Gutts X3 said:


> she prepared to Nike for the second attack and she uses a definitive attack with his cosmos to the maximun


correction: athena hasn`t even awakaned her full power in Saintia-sho and she is being weakened as we know right now. and a casual attack from her and manifistation of her nike is her full power? wut? stop with you head canon. 



Gutts X3 said:


> Tomoe is only the half of Athena.


again, stop with you head canon. this was never stated or implied in series!


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## tivanenk (Sep 19, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Nope.
> 
> The Cloth becomes golden when Seiya reaches his maximum cosmos for a moment (a miracle), and defeats to Sigurd with a simple blow. The Golden Gold Cloth is the maximum power of Seiya, the power that the Bronze Saints reached against a god like Hades in the Classic. The Cloth with the colors of the anime, is the Cloth that Seiya reaches by the curse of Hades in his body, he does not have all his power as he says it afterwards. The true God Cloth is golden in the Classic, the Cloth that defeats a god like Thanatos (infinitely more powerful than Sigurd).
> 
> ...



Nope.

Directly stated that Seiya himself was glowing, not the cloth. You can post the scan directly here, fool.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 19, 2017)

SF latif said:


> key word pretended to get knocked out by saga
> correction: athena hasn`t even awakaned her full power in Saintia-sho and she is being weakened as we know right now. and a casual attack from her and manifistation of her nike is her full power? wut? stop with you head canon.
> again, stop with you head canon. this was never stated or implied in series!


The goddess only prepare his most powerful attack to defeat Saga, the goddess can not win without concentrating all his cosmos in attack. Is an awesome feat.

Athena has all his power in Saintia Sho, the two goddesses awaken in the invasion to the Sanctuary. An attack with all its cosmos to the maximum and using to the goddess Nike.

Yoshino and Tomoe are Athena, a single Athena of the Lost World, the two form Athena complete.


tivanenk said:


> Nope.
> 
> Directly stated that Seiya himself was glowing, not the cloth. You can post the scan directly here, fool.


Nope.

The Cloth reached a golden glow (a miracle when reaching its maximum cosmos, even with the curse of Hades), the true form (or color) of the God Cloth in the Classic. I can post the scan of the official color of the God Cloth in the classic.

In the classic or main universe are golden.

In ND is golden as the cloth o kamui of Athena and Artemis (the armor of a olympic goddess).

In Assassin the maximum cosmos (a miracle) of Seiya turns the God Cloth in golden. And defeat Sigurd (is infinitely weaker than a god like Thanatos, is only of the level of a Gold Saint) with a single blow.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Shura describes the infinite potential of human that can surpass to the gods. Sigurd describes that the God Cloth is radiating a golden glow (the true color or the true god cloth in the classic).






Sigurd resists attacks of Seiya with God Cloth with the colors of a bronze cloth. Seiya does not have all his power in Assassin, he can only reach his maximum for a moment, otherwise he would kill Sigurd with a blow.


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## SF latif (Sep 19, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The goddess only prepare his most powerful attack to defeat Saga, the goddess can not win without concentrating all his cosmos in attack. Is an awesome feat.
> 
> Athena has all his power in Saintia Sho, the two goddesses awaken in the invasion to the Sanctuary. An attack with all its cosmos to the maximum and using to the goddess Nike to the maximum.


>a casual attack from a mere manifistation of her nike knocks God saga out
> it`s  stated that athena has not awakened her full power in Saori`s body yet
> getting constandly weaker by eris`s curse
> maximum cosmo
lel
also just in case your reading a diffrent manga, since most of what your saying is head canon lol:




Gutts X3 said:


> Yoshino and Tomoe are Athena, a single Athena of the Lost World, the two form Athena complete.


it was a countermeasure. no where in the series does it say that tomoe is any weaker. both are athena`s
if anything the whole series been implying the opposite of what your saying with your head canon bud.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 19, 2017)

SF latif said:


> >a casual attack from a mere manifistation of her nike knocks God saga out
> > it`s  stated that athena has not awakened her full power in Saori`s body yet
> > getting constandly weaker by eris`s curse
> > maximum cosmo
> ...


- In that scene, Shaka describes that the two goddesses (Eris and Athena) fully awakened in the invasion in the Sanctuary. Eris and Athena have all their power after of the invasion.
Shaka: Furthermore, I have the impression the resurrected Eris is not yet fully awakened... *Most likely, she will become a true God during this battle... That's the feeling I have. And it is the same for Athena.*
- A attack with all the power of Athena with the goddess Nike (his most powerful weapon)
- The medicine created with the roots of the tree of the goddess Demeter healed Athena of the curse of Eris, that is why Athena travels to Eden to fight against Eris.

The two are only an Athena that reincarnate as two twins. Tomoe and Yoshino are only half of an Athena (the Athena of a different world).


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## Id (Sep 20, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Aiolos solo did not defeat Zeus. Aiolos had the help of the Saints in the Sanctuary and the goddess Athena, and uses a bow and arrow with the cosmos of Athena. Aiolos solo does not have the power of a god. He only destroyed Zeus in the body of Aiolia, because Aiolia controls his body and allows to attack it. Is an situation similar to the Classic with Hades in the body of Shun, Ikki could defeat Hades with a blow, because Shun controls his body.


You are wrong. You need to reread G.A. Capter 79 Page 1 over. We are informed Aiolos alone struck down Zeus with his Killshot. There is no other description of anyone else contributing their cosmos to the arrow. Just Aiolos.


```
https://imgur.com/K6coWBg
```

It pierced him.

I fired the golden arrow after I deposited all of my cosmo.

It was great sacrifice, in a flash many lives disappeared. 

My hearts sorrow was transformed into strength and I placed all my sentiments into the arrow.

Without a doubt, this pierced through the Great God Zeus.

No just his body, but his spirit was also destroyed.

Although a God can never be truly killed, Zeus will fall into a deep sleep.

This war will reach its end.

Reactions: Like 2


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## tivanenk (Sep 20, 2017)

Id said:


> You are wrong. You need to reread G.A. Capter 79 Page 1 over. We are informed Aiolos alone struck down Zeus with his Killshot. There is no other description of anyone else contributing their cosmos to the arrow. Just Aiolos.
> 
> 
> ```
> ...



Waoooooooah!!! *orgasms*

To be fair, he can argue that the "many lives were lost" line is a result of inputting their life force into the arrow ala Wailing Wall. I would probably argue this as well. Regardless, impressive as hell.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Id (Sep 20, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Waoooooooah!!! *orgasms*
> 
> To be fair, he can argue that the "many lives were lost" line is a result of inputting their life force into the arrow ala Wailing Wall. I would probably argue this as well. Regardless, impressive as hell.



"It was great sacrifice, in a flash many lives disappeared.

My hearts sorrow was transformed into strength and I placed all my sentiments into the arrow."

Look at this way. if you want to spin it that way it does not add up. Shooting the Wailing Wall, and shooting Zeus are a completely different situations. Per the description of the scene, it just does not add up. The Gold saint died due to the implosion/explosion (however you want to look at) and not from adding their cosmo to the arrow...er no one has ever died from contributing cosmo to Sagittarius shot.

However we are told the arrow went right through Zeus, with no details of any kind of implosion/explosion following after, otherwise Aiolos would have been killed along the way just like in the Wailing Wall scenario.


In reality the sentence does not mention any contribution of cosmo by anyone else. Only Aiolos reflecting on the lives that where quickly lost, and him turning his sorrow into strength, and Aiolos deposit his newfound cosmo/strength into his killshot. And we are told very clearly the Arrow was shot after Aiolos deposited all his comso.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 21, 2017)

Id said:


> You are wrong. You need to reread G.A. Capter 79 Page 1 over. We are informed Aiolos alone struck down Zeus with his Killshot. There is no other description of anyone else contributing their cosmos to the arrow. Just Aiolos.
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


The arrow of Sagittarius absorbs the power of the cosmos and the spirit of the Saints, and Aiolos says that multiple lives were sacrificed to defeat Zeus.

Fue un gran sacrificio, el destello de muchas vidas desapareció.
(It was great sacrifice, the flash many lives disappeared.)

Aiolos always uses the power of souls and cosmos to increase the power of his arrow.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Zeus says that they could only defeat him with the bow and arrow with the blessing of Athena (a divine bow and arrow, a weapon to defeat a god).

El arco y flecha dorada que poseían la bendición de Athena han sido destruidos.
(The golden bow and arrow that possessed the blessing of Athena was destroyed.)
Ahora que he adquirido un nuevo cuerpo será imposible que puedas atacarme.
(Now that I have acquired a new body it will be impossible for you to attack me.)

Is a feat of all the Saints in the Sanctuary and Athena, not Aiolos solo, who is infinitely weaker than a god.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DarkLordDragon (Sep 21, 2017)

@Gutts


> And defeat Sigurd (is infinitely weaker than a god like Thanatos, is only of the level of a Gold Saint) with a single blow.



Sigurd infinitely weaker than Thanatos? How you reached this conclusion?


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## tivanenk (Sep 21, 2017)

DarkLordDragon said:


> @Gutts
> 
> 
> Sigurd infinitely weaker than Thanatos? How you reached this conclusion?



Especially considering that Sigurd was a god himself...


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 21, 2017)

DarkLordDragon said:


> @Gutts
> 
> 
> Sigurd infinitely weaker than Thanatos? How you reached this conclusion?



He was twice compared to Gods as well.

Nothing in that G scan show's him literally using the soul's to empower himself, just the showing standard humans can do anything speech.


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## tivanenk (Sep 21, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> He was twice compared to Gods as well.
> 
> Nothing in that G scan show's him literally using the soul's to empower himself, just the showing standard humans can do anything speech.



Exactly. Shiryu even said he could feel the same Cosmo emanating from him as that of the gods he fought before.


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## Id (Sep 21, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The arrow of Sagittarius absorbs the power of the cosmos and the spirit of the Saints, and Aiolos says that multiple lives were sacrificed to defeat Zeus.
> 
> Fue un gran sacrificio, el destello de muchas vidas desapareció.
> (It was great sacrifice, the flash many lives disappeared.)
> ...


We are going by the scene as it was described and not fall in victims assuming things. You are assuming, and assumptions are not facts.

You claim is compromised by two elephants in the room.

Elephant 1) It is stated twice that Aiolos invested his cosmo into the Bow & Arrow. No one else. If you claim otherwise, it falls as burden of proof for you to validate your claim. Show me where Aiolos took the cosmos of other characters in his fight with Zeus. If you can not prove it, than you claims are hollow with no leg to stand on.

Elephant 2) Athena Blessing the Bow and Arrow. The weapons of Gold Saints are blessed. This is common & general knowledge. It does not imply that external power was added. The scans do not mention any form of empowerment by Athena in Aiolos giving the kill shot. Refer to point 1, where it is stated twice that the Arrow was shot by Aiolos only after he deposited all *HIS* cosmo. If you want to challenge and prove your claim. Burden of Truth is on your hands, show us a scan from that scene where Aiolos charged his weapon with Athenas power.


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## tivanenk (Sep 21, 2017)

@Id I think the arrow might be the same arrow that Gestalt got and shot at her. But it's still a part of his power.


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## Id (Sep 21, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> @Id I think the arrow might be the same arrow that Gestalt got and shot at her. But it's still a part of his power.


If that is the case we would have to wait for confirmation. What leaves me in doubt is the fact that Zeus mentions his Bow and Arrow are destroyed, and not specifically that he does not have a Special Arrow to fire.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 21, 2017)

DarkLordDragon said:


> @Gutts
> Sigurd infinitely weaker than Thanatos? How you reached this conclusion?


Thanatos has more power than five gold saint (or bronze saint with the power of gold saint). The gladiators are only of the level of a gold saint.


Id said:


> We are going by the scene as it was described and not fall in victims assuming things. You are assuming, and assumptions are not facts.
> 
> You claim is compromised by two elephants in the room.
> 
> ...


Aiolos is infinitely weaker than a god, he is weaker than Tomoe, the half of Athena. And he could only damage to Zeus with the bow and arrow blessed by Athena. Zeus says that Aiolos can not damage him without the bow and arrow.

Aiolos says that many lives were sacrificed in the attack on Zeus. He uses the cosmos and souls of the Saints (as against the soul of typhon), the cosmos of Athena and his cosmos to the maximum to defeat the god.

Not only the divine weapons have the blessing of Athena (or other god). 
A weapon with the blessing of a god has the cosmos of the god as the Hagoromo Lunar and Golden Hazanshi that use the Saintias has the cosmos of Artemis. It is a divine weapon to kill a god. Even Zeus says that only the bow and arrow with the blessing of Athena could damage him.


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## Id (Sep 21, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Aiolos is infinitely weaker than a god, he is weaker than Tomoe, the half of Athena. And he could only damage to Zeus with the bow and arrow blessed by Athena. Zeus says that Aiolos can not damage him without the bow and arrow.
> 
> Aiolos says that many lives were sacrificed in the attack on Zeus. He uses the cosmos and souls of the Saints (as against the soul of typhon), the cosmos of Athena and his cosmos to the maximum to defeat the god.


If he is/isnt weaker to Tomoe is a moot point, and not relevant to his take down of Zeus. God Saga serves Eris, does that make him weaker than Athena? No he is weaker to Athena because Athena bodied him.  

The Bow and Arrow are legit weapons of his as they are standard equipment to his cloth. Aiolos taking a shot at Saga with his bow and arrow is a valid tactic. 

We know Aiolos can charge his arrow with the comos of those deceased. However that does not mean he did so in his fight with Zeus, since it described more than once that he charged his arrow with *his* cosmo and no one else. If you claim he did prove it.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 21, 2017)

Id said:


> If he is/isnt weaker to Tomoe is a moot point, and not relevant to his take down of Zeus. God Saga serves Eris, does that make him weaker than Athena? No he is weaker to Athena because Athena bodied him.
> 
> The Bow and Arrow are legit weapons of his as they are standard equipment to his cloth. Aiolos taking a shot at Saga with his bow and arrow is a valid tactic.
> 
> We know Aiolos can charge his arrow with the comos of those deceased. However that does not mean he did so in his fight with Zeus, since it described more than once that he charged his arrow with *his* cosmo and no one else. If you claim he did prove it.


Saga says that he just using Eris to fulfill his plans. Saga is not a servant of Eris. Tomoe is superior to Aiolos, and she is only the half of Athena.

No, the normal arrow and bow of Sagittarius are his standard equipment, not an arrow and bow with the blessing of Athena that have the power to damage a god. And the normal bow and arrow of Sagittarius can only scratch to a god in a human body.

Aiolos always uses an arrow with the cosmos and souls of the Saints (or other people) for example: the scene of the wailing wall or against the soul of typhon. In the scene it is described that many Saints were sacrificed in the attack against Zeus. The arrow has the cosmos of Aiolos, the cosmos of all Saints and the blessing and cosmos of Athena.


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## Id (Sep 21, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Saga says that he just using Eris to fulfill his plans. Saga is not a servant of Eris.
> 
> No, the normal arrow and bow of Sagittarius are his standard equipment, not an arrow and bow with the blessing of Athena that have the power to damage a god. And the normal bow and arrow of Sagittarius can only scratch to a god in a human body.
> 
> In the scene it is described that many Saints were sacrificed in the attack against Zeus.



Weather you think if the Bow and Arrow by Anti-Pope Aiolos is amped or not by Athenas blessing is a moot point. As this is Anti-Pope who is drafted to fight and along with his gear. However you have to prove that blessing actually relates to amp/buff, and not just some poetic phrase to describe how saints are blessed to have the equipment. And its your burden to prove so, since the manga states Aiolos charged his arrow with his power and no one else's.

Saints where sacrificed in the battle against Zeus, means lives where lost in battle. Shion and Dhoko use the exact explanation was used to describe how severe the previous Holy War against Hades. Does this mean that they charged thier cosmo attacks with the corpses of fallen saints? *NO!*. It simply means lives where lost. Can you actually point out and prove where Aiolos used thier cosmo to Genkidama his arrow or are you still just assuming?


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 21, 2017)

Id said:


> Weather you think if the Bow and Arrow by Anti-Pope Aiolos is amped or not by Athenas blessing is a moot point. As this is Anti-Pope who is drafted to fight and along with his gear. However you have to prove that blessing actually relates to amp/buff, and not just some poetic phrase to describe how saints are blessed to have the equipment. And its your burden to prove so, since the manga states Aiolos charged his arrow with his power and no one else's.
> 
> Saints where sacrificed in the battle against Zeus, means lives where lost in battle. Shion and Dhoko use the exact explanation was used to describe how severe the previous Holy War against Hades. Does this mean that they charged thier cosmo attacks with the corpses of fallen saints? *NO!*. It simply means lives where lost. Can you actually point out and prove where Aiolos used thier cosmo to Genkidama his arrow or are you still just assuming?


Zeus says that Aiolos can not damage him without the arrow and bow with the blessing of Athena. Aiolos does not have the power of a god, he can only damage to Zeus by the arrow with the blessing of Athena. Aiolos without divine arrow and bow is weak even against a god in a human body,  even with ninth sense is surpassed by the power of three Gold Saints (weakened and affected by the underworld) and a Kyoto.

In this case, the Saints and Athena were sacrificed to defeat and weaken Zeus. It is a feat of all Saints in the Sanctuary and Athena. And Aiolos always uses the cosmos and souls of the humans to attack and it is the power of the arrows of Sagittarius that have the capacity of use the cosmos of the humans.


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## tivanenk (Sep 21, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Thanatos has more power than five gold saint (or bronze saint with the power of gold saint). The gladiators are only of the level of a gold saint.



Bro. These gold saints have matured to their 40s and are far stronger than themselves and other Gold Saints in the past. Case in point: Shun is able to stop God Cloth Mu's attack from penetrating with chains made out of cosmo without even donning his Gold Cloth. Hell, even Kiki put up somewhat of a fight, and he has way less experience than the main Five. Shiryu is also gearing up to fight his Master Roshi who probably has the Libra God Cloth of his own. The same Shiryu who got clobbered by Sigurd numerous, numerous times in a _weaker form_ and even a miracle-induced Excalibur did not get him the win. And then Shiryu was completely eviscerated by Sigurd when he came back.

Sigurd is a God-Cloth level character, deal with it.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 21, 2017)

I've changed my mind a while ago on Sigurd's level 

he should be above Thanatos since he endured a pummeling from God Cloth Seiya before his Cloth turned gold, and I don't see that Seiya being way below the one that easily shattered Thanatos's surplice

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 21, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I've changed my mind a while ago on Sigurd's level
> 
> he should be above Thanatos since he endured a pummeling from God Cloth Seiya before his Cloth turned gold, and I don't see that Seiya being way below the one that easily shattered Thanatos's surplice


Seiya with golden god cloth (the true god cloth in the classic) defeated Sigurd with a simple blow. And Seiya says that he does not have all his power by the curse of Hades (en el capitulo especia). Seiya with golden god cloth or true god cloth uses two attacks (a special attack) to defeat Thanatos, and Seiya has an cosmos infinitely more powerful than before in the Hades Arc.


tivanenk said:


> Bro. These gold saints have matured to their 40s and are far stronger than themselves and other Gold Saints in the past. Case in point: Shun is able to stop God Cloth Mu's attack from penetrating with chains made out of cosmo without even donning his Gold Cloth. Hell, even Kiki put up somewhat of a fight, and he has way less experience than the main Five. Shiryu is also gearing up to fight his Master Roshi who probably has the Libra God Cloth of his own. The same Shiryu who got clobbered by Sigurd numerous, numerous times in a _weaker form_ and even a miracle-induced Excalibur did not get him the win. And then Shiryu was completely eviscerated by Sigurd when he came back.
> 
> Sigurd is a God-Cloth level character, deal with it.


Seiya has the curse of Hades, he did not train or fight in 22 years. He even says that he can not fight like before, he does not have all his power. Even after of the Hades Arc, the Bronze Saints are level Gold Saint, and Gold Saints like Gestalt, Kaiser, Ecarlate, Cain/Abel and Shijima are more powerful than the Bronze Saints. The Gold Saints of the Lost World do not have a infinite cosmos, the Gold Cloths of Lost World are transformed by the cosmos of Tomoe (the power of the dance), not by the cosmos of the Saints, that's why Cloths always have the form of a God Cloth even when they are not used by the Saints. An God Cloth returns to its original form after of the battle (said in Next Dimension). Shiryu is very weak, he is weaker than the Gold Saints of the past, and the Gold Saints of the past can fight and resist multiple attacks of the Gladiators. Thanatos defeated five Gold Saints with an attack (and Bronze Saints like Ikki, Shun and Hyoga are more powerful than the middle-level Gold Saints in Hades). Hyoga can only reach absolute zero with his maximum (used to defeat Wadatsumi definitively), and Hyoga with God Cloth exceeds hundreds of times the absolute zero.


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## tivanenk (Sep 21, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Seiya with golden god cloth (the true god cloth in the classic) defeated Sigurd with a simple blow. And Seiya says that he does not have all his power by the curse of Hades (en el capitulo especia). Seiya with golden god cloth or true god cloth uses two attacks (a special attack) to defeat Thanatos, and Seiya has an cosmos infinitely more powerful than before in the Hades Arc.
> 
> Seiya has the curse of Hades, he did not train or fight in 22 years. He even says that he can not fight like before, he does not have all his power. Even after of the Hades Arc, the Bronze Saints are level Gold Saint, and Gold Saints like Gestalt, Kaiser, Ecarlate, Cain/Abel and Shijima are more powerful than the Bronze Saints. The Gold Saints of the Lost World do not have a infinite cosmos, the Gold Cloths of Lost World are transformed by the cosmos of Tomoe (the power of the dance), not by the cosmos of the Saints, that's why Cloths always have the form of a God Cloth even when they are not used by the Saints. An God Cloth returns to its original form after of the battle (said in Next Dimension). Shiryu is very weak, he is weaker than the Gold Saints of the past, and the Gold Saints of the past can fight and resist multiple attacks of the Gladiators. Thanatos defeated five Gold Saints with an attack (and Bronze Saints like Ikki, Shun and Hyoga are more powerful than the middle-level Gold Saints in Hades). Hyoga can only reach absolute zero with his maximum (used to defeat Wadatsumi definitively), and Hyoga with God Cloth exceeds hundreds of times the absolute zero.



Loooooool. Seiya without a Cloth and injured punched away a Lightning Telios. A stronger version of Lightning Telios than the one that Shura and Saga had to face (because it was consolidated around his fist). The same Lightning Telios Saga got spooked of and had to use Another Dimension to BFR, and the same Lightning Telios Shura's Eclipse Calibur couldn't do shit against. The same Lightning Telios that Kanon struggled to block with his Golden Hexagram.

And Seiya punched that away casually using no technique whatsoever and you call him weak? Lolololololol.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 21, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Loooooool. Seiya without a Cloth and injured punched away a Lightning Telios. A stronger version of Lightning Telios than the one that Shura and Saga had to face (because it was consolidated around his fist). The same Lightning Telios Saga got spooked of and had to use Another Dimension to BFR, and the same Lightning Telios Shura's Eclipse Calibur couldn't do shit against. The same Lightning Telios that Kanon struggled to block with his Golden Hexagram.
> 
> And Seiya punched that away casually using no technique whatsoever and you call him weak? Lolololololol.


Shura (even weakened) also stops the attack, and Aiolia even without Cloth resists (without damage) the attacks of Aiolos, , and Shura without Cloth resists the attack of Aioros with little damage. Saga is an owl does not have all its power. And Aiolos used all his power in that fight, even had to activate the ninth sense.


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## tivanenk (Sep 21, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Shura (even weakened) also stops the attack, and Aiolia even without Cloth resists the attacks of Aiolos. Saga is an owl does not have all its power. And Aiolos used all his power in that fight, even had to activate the ninth sense.



How cute. Shura himself said that he could not stop the attack with his Eclipse Calibur. Directly in the text. Now I know you just flat-out lie. Saga as an owl, yes. In his human form? Definitely no. He has his power. Shura even compares it to the power of the Aiolos he used to know back in the day.

Aiolia was fucking crippled after he took his Telios, Shura had to catch him and he could barely stand, which is why he stood behind Shura to catch Aiolos off-guard when he strikes.

Yes, Aiolos unleashed his power... after the three Saints unleashed an AE (for a forbidden technique, it sure gets used a lot). Before that, he was simply toying with them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 21, 2017)

> Thanatos has more power than five gold saint (or bronze saint with the power of gold saint). The gladiators are only of the level of a gold saint.



The gladiators  sigured and even Chakravartin are clearly on another level from the rest, Sigured did just  fight a gold saint, he fought 40+ year very experienced dragon shiryu,  He withstood a attacks from God cloth and shining cloth seiya. even  a  weekend  seiya would have easily destroyed the twins with those attacks.



> Aiolos is infinitely weaker than a god, he is weaker than Tomoe, the half of Athena. And he could only damage to Zeus with the bow and arrow blessed by Athena.



Almost find your mannerisms funny now, "Character way stronger, character way weaker because they need to be for my head canon"  No  Aiolos is not "infinitely weaker than a god" especially  considering gods like the twins, all evidence point's toward Aiolos being very op, and arrow or not he's proved to be beyond anything God saga can handle in his encounter with  the saints EA and a older kanon who's likely much more powerful than saga.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 21, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> How cute. Shura himself said that he could not stop the attack with his Eclipse Calibur. Directly in the text. Now I know you just flat-out lie. Saga as an owl, yes. In his human form? Definitely no. He has his power. Shura even compares it to the power of the Aiolos he used to know back in the day.
> 
> Aiolia was fucking crippled after he took his Telios, Shura had to catch him and he could barely stand, which is why he stood behind Shura to catch Aiolos off-guard when he strikes.
> 
> Yes, Aiolos unleashed his power... after the three Saints unleashed an AE (for a forbidden technique, it sure gets used a lot). Before that, he was simply toying with them.


Shura weakened by his combat against Trivikramasena and affected by the Underworld. No, Saga is an owl can not maintain his human form for long time and is affected by his evil side trying to take control of his body.

Aiolia has no serious damage by the attack of Aiolos, even attempting to fight at the end of the battle, and Shura without Cloth resists the attack of Aioros with little damage.

No, Aiolos used all his power against the Saints in the underworld (he used all his techniques to the maximum, with the exception of Lightning Void), and he used the ninth sense to fight whit the Athena Exclamation of the Gold Saints.


ebonyLogic said:


> The gladiators  sigured and even Chakravartin are clearly on another level from the rest, Sigured did just  fight a gold saint, he fought 40+ year very experienced dragon shiryu,  He withstood a attacks from God cloth and shining cloth seiya. even  a  weekend  seiya would have easily destroyed the twins with those attacks.
> 
> Almost find your mannerisms funny now, "Character way stronger, character way weaker because they need to be for my head canon"  No  Aiolos is not "infinitely weaker than a god" especially  considering gods like the twins, all evidence point's toward Aiolos being very op, and arrow or not he's proved to be beyond anything God saga can handle in his encounter with  the saints EA and a older kanon who's likely much more powerful than saga.


Trivikramasena is the most powerful (in the words of Aiolos). Gladiators are Gold Saint's level, even the Gold Saints of the past can fight against the Gladiators. Shiryu is not stronger, he did not fight in 22 years of peace, even Hyoga can only reach absolute zero with his maximum, and Shun is only close to the level of Shaka.

The twin gods are much weaker than Athena or a great god, even the twin gods can defeat five Gold Saints with one attack, and Hypnos can defeat Shun with God Cloth (with infinite cosmos).


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## Id (Sep 22, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> In this case, the Saints and Athena were sacrificed to defeat and weaken Zeus. It is a feat of all Saints in the Sanctuary and Athena.  .



Pay attention to what you are claiming. Where do we see or read Athena & Her Saints sacrifice their lives to charge Aiolos Arrow? Where is it Gutts? Where is the Proof!?!?




Gutts X3 said:


> And Aiolos always uses the cosmos and souls of the humans to attack and it is the power of the arrows of Sagittarius that have the capacity of use the cosmos of the humans.




Aiolos has the ability to do so does not mean that he did so. Again where is your proof Anti-Pope charged his arrow with the cosmo of anyone elses but his own? Prove IT!




*“It pierced him.

I fired the golden arrow after I deposited all of my cosmo.”*

The dialogue is clear. The arrow was shot only after Aiolos charged it with his power. No mention of outside help.




*“It was great sacrifice, in a flash many lives disappeared. 

My hearts sorrow was transformed into strength and I placed all my sentiments into the arrow.”*

Again a description of caulties of war, and lives being lost because of it. Not that there was any partaking in Aiolos charging his arrow. With the second sentence confirming the fact. *HIS* sorrow, which is singular. Was transformed into strength and used it to charge is his arrow. This again reaffirms that Aiolos charged his arrow solo dolo.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 22, 2017)

Id said:


> Pay attention to what you are claiming. Where do we see or read Athena & Her Saints sacrifice their lives to charge Aiolos Arrow? Where is it Gutts? Where is the Proof!?!?
> 
> Aiolos has the ability to do so does not mean that he did so. Again where is your proof Anti-Pope charged his arrow with the cosmo of anyone elses but his own? Prove IT!
> 
> ...


The Saints and Athena were sacrificed to defeat Zeus. The Saints and Athena weakened Zeus and their cosmos and soul are used in the final arrow against Zeus. The ability (a skill that is always active) of the arrows is amplify their power with the cosmos and souls of the Saints (or humans) around of Sagittarius (for example Seiya versus Poseidon).

Aioros can not damage a god in the body of a human (without complete control of his avatar), without the divine weapons like the arrow and bow blessed by Athena.

El arco y flecha dorada que poseían la bendición de Athena han sido destruidos.
(*The golden bow and arrow that possessed the blessing of Athena was destroyed.*)
Ahora que he adquirido un nuevo cuerpo será imposible que puedas atacarme.
(*Now that I have acquired a new body it will be impossible for you to attack me.*)

Aiolos is trash for a god like Zeus of Lost World, even can not damage it without the bow and arrow with the blessing of Athena.

In what part of the manga is it said that Aiolos has the power of a god. In the manga he is even overcome by the power of three Gold Saints (weakened) and a Kyoto. Even for feats is inferior to Hypnos and Thanatos, who can defeat five gold saints with an attack. Tomoe is superior to Aioloa, she is only half of Athena of other world, the half of the goddess, the half of his power.


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## Id (Sep 22, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The Saints and Athena were sacrificed to defeat Zeus. The Saints and Athena weakened Zeus and their cosmos and soul are used in the final arrow against Zeus.



Your words! this was never shown.




Gutts X3 said:


> Aioros can not damge a god in the body of a human, without the divine weapons like the arrow and the bow blessed by Athena.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Try again. We are not here to justify the use of Aiolos Bow and Arrow, its part of his cloth set and standard equipment. If Saga gets shot by his Arrow, Saga is legitimacy fucked.  The arrow is charged with Cosmo not by blessing.




Gutts X3 said:


> In what part of the manga is it said that Aiolos has the power of a god.



He killed a God, which is the only real point that needs to be made. 
Chapter 78 page 20




Chapter 79 page 01





Gutts X3 said:


> In the manga he is even overcome by the power of three Gold Saints (weakened) and a Kyoto. Even for feats is inferior to Hypnos and Thanatos, who can defeat five gold saints with an attack. Tomoe is superior to Aioloa, she is only half of Athena of other world, the half of the goddess, the half of his power.



None of this has *ANYTHING* to do with the fact that Manga states he Killed Zeus.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 22, 2017)

Id said:


> Your words this was never shown.
> 
> Try again. We are not here to justify the use of Aiolos Bow and Arrow, its part of his cloth set and standard equipment. If Saga gets shot by his Arrow, Saga is legitimacy fucked.  The arrow is charged with Cosmo not by blessing.
> 
> ...


In the manga it is said that the Saints were sacrificed to defeat Zeus. And Zeus says that Athena was sacrificed, or defeated in the battle (Aiolos could not save anyone). And the skill (a skill that is always active) of the arrow is use the cosmos and souls of the Saints around Sagitarario.

The arrow and bow with the blessing of Athena is not a standard equipment of the character. He only possesses a simple arrow and bow that only has the power (even amplified by the cosmos of the bronze) to scratch a god in a human body.

Never says that he has the power of a god. And he only defeated Zeus (with blows or a blow), because Aiolia controls his body, even Ikki could defeat Hades with a blow, because Shun controls his body.


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## Id (Sep 22, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> In the manga it is said that the Saints were sacrificed to defeat Zeus. And Zeus says that Athena was sacrificed, or defeated in the battle (Aiolos could not save anyone). And the skill (a skill that is always active) of the arrow is use the cosmos and souls of the Saints around Sagitarario.


That does not mean that Aiolos arrow was charged by other members. It simply stating the lost their lives in battle. The Arrow does not act as magnet absorbing cosmo power. Cosmo Power needs to be deliberately deposited, to which the only detail of it being done is by Aiolos.

Seriously it says just that in the manga.



Gutts X3 said:


> I
> The arrow and bow with the blessing of Athena is not a standard equipment of the character. He only possesses a simple arrow and bow that only has the power (even amplified by the cosmos of the bronze) to scratch a god in a human body.



Prove that blessing is associated with charging the arrow. Saint Seiya lore specifically describe Cosmo as being its source to power.


Gutts X3 said:


> Never says that he has the power of a god. And he only defeated Zeus (with blows or a blow), because Aiolos controls his body, even Ikki could defeat Hades with a blow, because Shun controls his body.



He now has the 9th sense and thus the power equivalent to the Gods. However that’s not the point.

Aiolos killed Zeus true form with his bow and arrow with no outside help. And this irks you, because you cant prove otherwise and continue to make claims that are not related to what is described on a single page of this manga.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 22, 2017)

Id said:


> That does not mean that Aiolos arrow was charged by other members. It simply stating the lost their lives in battle. The Arrow does not act as magnet absorbing cosmo power. Cosmo Power needs to be deliberately deposited, to which the only detail of it being done is by Aiolos.
> 
> Seriously it says just that in the manga.
> 
> ...


All the Saints in the Sanctuary and Athena fought against Zeus. They sacrificed their lives to defeat the god. Not the arrow absorbs the power of the Saints around Sagittarius, as in the fight against Poseidon.

A weapon that has the blessing of a god, is a weapon with the cosmos of the god, like the lunar hagoromo or hazanshi with the blessing of Artemis and has the cosmos of the goddess. Aiolos can not damage Zeus without the arrow and bow with the blessing of Athena, because his cosmos is infinitely weaker than the cosmos of the god.

All the gods have the ninth sense, but even among the gods there is a difference of power, is impossible to compare the power of the twin gods with Athena, or the giants with the twin gods.

Aiolos is trash for the power of Zeus, he can only damage the god with the arrow and bow with the blessing of Athena. He can not even damage Zeus in a human body. And he can only defeat Zeus is a human body, because Aiolia controls his body.


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## Id (Sep 22, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> All the gods have the ninth sense, but even among the gods there is a difference of power, is impossible to compare the power of the twin gods with Athena, or the giants with the twin gods.


Again Moot Point.
I am not arguing Aiolos ranking with his 9th sense, you are twisting a claim to make an argument out of it.


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## Id (Sep 22, 2017)

@Gutts X3 Is that it are you done? Repeating and Recycling dribble will always be dribble. 

Come back when you have proof, instead of editing your post after replied to it.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 22, 2017)

Id said:


> Again Moot Point.
> I am not arguing Aiolos ranking with his 9th sense, you are twisting a claim to make an argument out of it.


It's because he does not have the power of a great god. The ninth sense proves nothing, because all the gods have the ninth sense.


Id said:


> @Gutts X3 Is that it are you done? Repeating and Recycling dribble will always be dribble.
> 
> Come back when you have proof, instead of editing your post after replied to it.


It is because in the manga it is said that he can not damage to Zeus, without the bow with the blessing of Athena. This confirms that he is infinitely weaker than the god and can not dagame the god with his cosmos.

Aiolos does not have the power of a great god.


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## Id (Sep 22, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> It's because he does not have the power of a great god. The ninth sense proves nothing, because all the gods have the ninth sense.
> 
> It is because in the manga it is said that it can not damage to Zeus, without the bow with the blessing of Athena. This confirms that he is infinitely weaker than the god and can not dagame the god with his cosmos.
> 
> Aiolos does not have the power of a great god.


Weather you chose to accept it or not, he had the power to kill Zeus in his true body. Even if it was for an instant, its his feat.

Read the manga, and confirm that the description Zeus has over his Bow and Arrow is not flowery statement or a purple prose. In the End it does not matter, because even if its true that Aiolos weapon was farther empowered by Athena. Its Aiolos weapon, and valid equipment. But until than prove it.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 22, 2017)

Id said:


> Weather you chose to accept it or not, he had the power to kill Zeus in his true body. Even if it was for an instant, its his feat.
> 
> Read the manga, and confirm that the description Zeus has over his Bow and Arrow is not flowery statement or a purple prose. In the End it does not matter, because even if its true that Aiolos weapon was farther empowered by Athena. Its Aiolos weapon, and valid equipment. But until than prove it.


Only with a special weapon to damage the god, because he can not damage the god without this weapon.

The arrow and bow with the blessing of Athena is not a standard equipment, it is like the dagger to kill gods of Seiya and Saga, and the other weapons of the Saints to fight against the gods. The standard equipment of Sagittarius is only its normal bow and arrow without the blessing of Athena.


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## Id (Sep 22, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Only with a special weapon to damage the god, because he can not damage the god without this weapon.


And than Zeus/Aiolia gets chopped into mice meat. 



Gutts X3 said:


> The arrow and bow with the blessing of Athena is not a standard equipment, it is like the dagger to kill gods of Seiya and Saga, and the other weapons of the Saints to fight against the gods. The standard equipment of Sagittarius is only its normal bow and arrow without the blessing of Athena.


Again you have no proof. 

In your quest to make a case for Saga and discredit Aiolos, your effectively saying Anti-Pope has a mega powerful God Killing Bow and Arrow. Go ahead keep making smart arguments for me.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 22, 2017)

Id said:


> And than Zeus/Aiolia gets chopped into mice meat.
> 
> Again you have no proof.
> 
> In your quest to make a case for Saga and discredit Aiolos, your effectively saying Anti-Pope has a mega powerful God Killing Bow and Arrow. Go ahead keep making smart arguments for me.


Only because Aiolia controls his body.

The bow and arrow with the blessing of Athena were destroyed in the battle, and Aiolos does not have the blessing of Athena.


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## Id (Sep 22, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> Only because Aiolia controls his body.
> 
> The bow and arrow with the blessing of Athena were destroyed in the battle, and Aiolos does not have the blessing of Athena.


Saga cheap shoted Athena and only Flashed K.O.ed her. And there is this thing called a Gods Aura that reflects cosmo attacks and this other thing called Gold Cloth. It didn't save Zeus/Aiolia from getting crushed leaving nothing but a head and torso. Go ahead put your finger over the Sun. 

Just because its destroyed does not mean it cant be repaired. And no you do not lose a Gods Blessing over time. You better get your facts in line. Gutts your clearly up-playing and downplaying Aiolos to fit your argument.


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## Gutts X3 (Sep 22, 2017)

Id said:


> Saga cheap shoted Athena and only Flashed K.O.ed her. And there is this thing called a Gods Aura that reflects cosmo attacks and this other thing called Gold Cloth. It didn't save Zeus/Aiolia from getting crushed leaving nothing but a head and torso. Go ahead put your finger over the Sun.
> 
> Just because its destroyed does not mean it cant be repaired. And no you do not lose a Gods Blessing over time. You better get your facts in line. Gutts your clearly up-playing and downplaying Aiolos to fit your argument.


The goddess Nike is the most powerful weapon of Athena and the goddess used his cosmos to the maximum. Aiolia controls his body, is like Shun controlling his body so that Ikki defeats to Hades with a blow. Aiolia does not defend himself against Aiolos' attack. Even  Suikyo (weakened) can destroy the Gold Cloth of Libra with a attack, Niobe destroys and disintegrates the body of Aldebaran (after of his death), and Thanatos destroys five Gold Cloths with a attack.

Aiolos does not have the bow and arrow with the blessing of Athena in the present time. You're just overestimating Aiolos. He does not have the power of a great god.


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## Id (Sep 22, 2017)

Gutts X3 said:


> The goddess Nike is the most powerful weapon of Athena and the goddess used his cosmos to the maximum. Aiolia controls his body, is like Shun controlling his body so that Ikki defeats to Hades with a blow. Aiolia does not defend himself against Aiolos' attack. Even  Suikyo (weakened) can destroy the Gold Cloth of Libra with a attack, Niobe destroys and disintegrates the body of Aldebaran (after of his death), and Thanatos destroys five Gold Cloths with a attack.
> 
> Aiolos does not have the bow and arrow with the blessing of Athena in the present time. You're just overestimating Aiolos. He does not have the power of a great god.


Look at you. This is nonsense.

Your quick to bring Zeus/Aiolia stopped his attack. And fail to recognize that it does nothing to take away from Gold Cloths durability and God Empowerment of reflecting attacks. Yet despite the fact Aiolos killed Zeus/Aiolia.

Compare it to Saga sneak attack on a Clothless Athena. He only manged to K.O. her and its a questionable one. Never mind Athena handing out an unholy ass-stomping in the rematch.

Because the bottom line is at least Aiolos got the Win and God Saga has nothing but a humiliating loss to show for it efforts.

Now take your tears and dry them up with buckets of salt.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 22, 2017)

Ok this needs to end, we are at the stage of constant repeating and no one's looking to stop. 

With all do respect to gutt's, most people agree  Aiolos win's this, and there is much evidence to support why, anybody reading this even big saga fan's have to see this as a victory for Aiolos. 

As far as the arrow situation goes, at the moment looks like he empowered the arrow himself but we will know for sure in the future,  saga really does not have any quantifiable feats but he is sure to be back with more feat's, same with Aiolos, but for now aiolos outclasses here.


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 22, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> With all do respect to gutt's, most people agree Aiolos win's this, and there is much evidence to support why, anybody reading this even big saga fan's have to see this as a victory for Aiolos.


Yeah Fang doesn't agree, CD doesn't agree, Blade doesn't agree and NC doesn't agree. Don't assume that because only Gutts is arguing here that it's unanimously behind Aiolos.

And by the way ebonyLogic, my friend NightmareCinema added this to Saga's Victories.


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 22, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Yeah Fang doesn't agree, CD doesn't agree, Blade doesn't agree and NC doesn't agree. Don't assume that because only Gutts is arguing here that it's unanimously behind Aiolos.
> 
> And by the way ebonyLogic, my friend NightmareCinema added this to Saga's Victories.




There not participating making there thought's Irrelevant, I'm sure even they agree deep down but aren't man enough to admit it. Anyone reasonable reading this has it for  Aiolos. Also Looking at those obd  profiles, there  trash nobody  care's or should care what they put there.


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 22, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> There not participating making there thought's Irrelevant, I'm sure even they agree deep down but aren't man enough to admit it. Anyone reasonable reading this has it for  Aiolos. Also Looking at those obd  profiles, there's  trash nobody with a care's or should care what they put there.


You're aware NightmareCinema is banned and can't respond right? The others have their reasons for not getting involved either.

And don't pull the "any reasonable person sees Aiolos winning." I'm not even interested in this but I'm quite frankly not liking what you're selling here. Don't pretend that everyone is agreeing to Aiolos winning because they're silent, that's simply dishonest.

An echo chamber is not a sign of unanimous agreement.


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 22, 2017)

> You're aware NightmareCinema is banned and can't respond right? The others have their reasons for not getting involved either.



Fang also has a bad habit of getting banned I wonder why. Whatever reason is irrelevant, there thought's aren't enough, and there's no reasonable counter here right now.



> And don't pull the "any reasonable person sees Aiolos winning." I'm not even interested in this but I'm quite frankly not liking what you're selling here. Don't pretend that everyone is agreeing to Aiolos winning because they're silent, that's simply dishonest.



My friend, I'm not selling anything, the truth is always free.



> An echo chamber is not a sign of unanimous agreement.



Considering saga fan's, the irony is strong here.


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 22, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> Fang also has a bad habit of getting banned I wonder why. Whatever reason is irrelevant, there thought's aren't enough, and there's no reasonable counter here right now.


You can't claim yourself as the arbiter of what is and isn't reasonable here. I'm getting annoyed at you pulling that crap.


ebonyLogic said:


> My friend, I'm not selling anything, the truth is always free.


I'm not your friend kid. And you obviously don't get the expression. Besides, as far as I can tell, it's been nothing but you claiming victory when the other side can't defend themselves.


ebonyLogic said:


> Considering saga fan's, the irony is strong here.


It's been hashed out over the years. Whether or not Saga is stronger is something I'm not interested in because I've seen this shit since 2009, I'm simply telling you that you don't have a moral high ground to stand on. So to put it simply, knock that crap off.


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 22, 2017)

> You can't claim yourself as the arbiter of what is and isn't reasonable here. I'm getting annoyed at you pulling that crap.



Only  the arbiter of fact's and reason.





> I'm not your friend kid. And you obviously don't get the expression. Besides, as far as I can tell, it's been nothing but you claiming victory when the other side can't defend themselves.



What a missed opportunity to do a "i'm not your friend buddy" thing there. Anyway if that victory for saga was added before the bump then there was no point in bringing it up, if it was added after with no debate, then there the ones that  clamed victory in there own superficial  way.



> It's been hashed out over the years. Whether or not Saga is stronger is something I'm not interested in because I've seen this shit since 2009, I'm simply telling you that you don't have a moral high ground to stand on. So to put it simply, knock that crap off.



I'm simply stating the obvious here, and want the  repeating and redundancy to end, I can't make anyone do anything but can help bring the situation to a close. You on the  other hand are not adding anything but bringing up people who aren't commenting and if they were would likely won't say anything of value.  So unless you have something to add here you are wasting my and everyone's time.


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 22, 2017)

You're right this is a waste of time. Bumping the thread to begin with was stupid and shouldn't have been done.

@KaiserWombat 

Can you take care of this please? This thread is going to go nowhere.


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## Fang (Sep 22, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> Fang also has a bad habit of getting banned I wonder why. Whatever reason is irrelevant, there thought's aren't enough, and there's no reasonable counter here right now.



Man you really are weird. Half the time in the SS thread when presented with evidence that contradicts your really goofy arguments, you resort to nonsense red herrings and the other times you have this awful habit of flatly ignoring stuff that goes against your biased personal narrative like Id and Tivanenk do.

Birds of a feather I guess.

Also do not remotely speak about me or the others like you know anyone of the regulars.


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## ebonyLogic (Sep 22, 2017)

Fang said:


> Man you really are weird. Half the time in the SS thread when presented with evidence that contradicts your really goofy arguments, you resort to nonsense red herrings and the other times you have this awful habit of flatly ignoring stuff that goes against your biased personal narrative like Id and Tivanenk do.
> 
> Birds of a feather I guess.
> 
> Also do not remotely speak about me or the others like you know anyone of the regulars.




Rearrange some names and I can say the same of you. I was on hear long ago, got busy, lurked and  come back now and then, i'm familiar with you and others here. beyond that I don't want to know more, would not have said your name if not brought up.


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## Atem (Sep 22, 2017)

I get banned from a bunch of forums all of the time. The fact is it's not something that determines that validity of what someone is saying. Particularly, since a lot of forums can be moderated by people who don't know what they're doing and can easily be convinced into a certain course of action. They tend to do whatever suits them personally, and it says more about them (and whatever "principles" they have or lack thereof) than it does the person being banned. 

You should treat each argument separate from the individual. Otherwise, you end up lumping together the lies with truth and the truth with the lies.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Fang (Sep 23, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> Rearrange some names and I can say the same of you. I was on hear long ago, got busy, lurked and  come back now and then, i'm familiar with you and others here. beyond that I don't want to know more, would not have said your name if not brought up.



"No u"

Yeah you are done. But if you want to make an argument about credibility, you've already done enough to poison your own by admitting to blatantly ignore statements involving G for example in the past and bury your head in the sand and have admitted that outright over and over. Almost as bad as unmentionables who post in this thread.

So stop now kiddo. You don't know anyone of the regulars here. Period.

Actually I'll make it easier for myself here by redacting myself from seeing your posts in the future.


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## Countless Insect (Sep 23, 2017)

ebonyLogic said:


> Rearrange some names and I can say the same of you. I was on hear long ago, got busy, lurked and  come back now and then, i'm familiar with you and others here. beyond that I don't want to know more, would not have said your name if not brought up.


I suppose the reason why you only "lurked" "years" ago was because you knew that you'd get laughed out with your monkey-level grasp of the English language and unwarranted self-importance.

INB4 you cry to your new mod boyfriend about "flaming" and "bullying"


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