# Superman vs. Son goku II (rematch)



## blaster (Feb 7, 2006)

Don't mad @ me if i post this second version .I just want to clarify if Superman could win against Goku on their rematch(NO TRAINING just both eat sensuu bean in the same time & fight).i dont know whos the winner on their first bout but again..this is very different.

You know that the saiyan characteristic are: once the saiyan experience a very hard fight or survive from near death experience, they will become stronger than ever.specially the fight between vegeta vs. sarra whom i think has no big difference(w/c means sarra is 2 or 3 times stronger than vegeta) unlike ssj3 goku vs. bebe vegeta,who has totally huge advantage in strenght than goku! or vegeta vs. perfect freeza(the white one).
In case of superman's Race,I dont know if he had like that.

Again,Who would win?


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## Orotachi (Feb 7, 2006)

You heard the man, I'll gave it to Goku.


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## Rice Ball (Feb 7, 2006)

Superman has to meny abilities available to him, hes at least as fast as Goku but doesn't suffer from Ki useage, for instance Goku would lose energy fighting him, superman could just wait till goku as used all his energy and then kill him in a single attack.


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## Battlemaster (Feb 7, 2006)

*Son goku 4 ever*

Son goku is the best fighter ever i think,he is more powerful and nothing
can stop him!!


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## Rice Ball (Feb 7, 2006)

Theres been a few retarded DBZ threads lately, what the hells happening to this place


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## Orotachi (Feb 7, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> Theres been a few retarded DBZ threads lately, what the hells happening to this place


I know what you think mate. but i think he's just want to clarify if theres a big difference in the second bout or rematch regardless of these both superpower creatures.because the saiyan(Goku) would become strong after experiencing a great fight or a horroble defeat.I dont know if Superman has it.


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## atom (Feb 7, 2006)

Super Saiyan 4 > Superman


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## Atlast (Feb 7, 2006)

I think in this second match,Goku has now a RIGHT to beat Superman. Because some episode of DBZ proves that oncea saiyan(goku) encounters a dangerous technique like san shenlong's ICE sealed,it wont work again on the *second chance*.the other one is sara vs. vegeta w/c i considered a closed horroble defeat for vegeta.
Meaning to say.that if superman unleashes his whole abilities on their first fight w/ goku, i think it won't effect anymore.

And last one.The saiyans i mean Son Goku can push his limits.I really think if he can make a SUPERSAIYAN 5 after he ate the sensuu beans and experiencing The man of steel before the second fight starts,how about superman,honestly i don't know if he can push his limits.


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## Final Ultima (Feb 7, 2006)

Grah, why did you revive such an irritating versus thread match-up, *why?*


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## Seany (Feb 7, 2006)

Goku wins.


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

> No DBZ vs non DBZ or cosmic or *really powerful superhero*


 

Superman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Goku please. Stop I love dragonballz. Why must you kill it pitting him against a god.


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## Gunners (Feb 7, 2006)

Evil_Itachi said:
			
		

> Super Saiyan 4 > Superman




Actually, no, ssj4 gokou sucked, the gokou from dbz imo was stronger, but due to the plot they would say ssj4, my reason is he struggled with a building.

Anyway, i think gokou wuld win, that is just my though, i beleive he could move fast enough to match superman, and is strong enough to hurt him.


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## ~ Masamune ~ (Feb 7, 2006)

Goku,he actually knows martial arts and has a lot of "jutsus".


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## Bullet (Feb 7, 2006)

Superman (again) wins.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 7, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> Superman has to meny abilities available to him, hes at least as fast as Goku but doesn't suffer from Ki useage, for instance Goku would lose energy fighting him, superman could just wait till goku as used all his energy and then kill him in a single attack.



The same way Goku loses energy fighting, Superman can lose solar energy the same way, you forget he is a battery hero.

Once again, i'm sticking with Goku, and with the senzu bean thing is even more tilted to goku.  Heat vision is not really gonna work, Freezing him couldn't work in the beginning of DBZ or probably even Dragonball.  Goku's techniques are top-notch and Superman cannot and will not beat Goku.


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## Bullet (Feb 7, 2006)

> The same way Goku loses energy fighting, Superman can lose solar energy the same way, you forget he is a battery hero.



Except Superman can fight for weeks, while Goku in ssj3 can only fight for a few minutes.



> Once again, i'm sticking with Goku, and with the senzu bean thing is even more tilted to goku.



And again Goku will lose in any form quit easily if Superman goes all out from the start.

Heat vision is not really gonna work, Freezing him couldn't work in the beginning of DBZ or probably even Dragonball.

Heat Vision will kill him and Goku can be frozen, but one good punch from Superman and ssj3 Goku whould be either dazed or KOed.



> Goku's techniques are top-notch and Superman cannot and will not beat Goku.



Superman's technique's and intellect are also top notch, and will beat ssj3 Goku.


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## keikun17 (Feb 7, 2006)

Goku wouldnt even need to fight.. *shows kryptonite* ''Haha!!''


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## Rice Ball (Feb 7, 2006)

Superman is above Goku in almost every aspect, the only thing Goku has more than Superman is a better sex life.


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## Gunners (Feb 7, 2006)

> Except Superman can fight for weeks, while Goku in ssj3 can only fight for a few minutes.



Does he need ssj3? personally i think ssj2 is enough, and if it is in gokous world, considering the sun could be diffrent, he could be weakened already.



> Heat Vision will kill him and Goku can be frozen, but one good punch from Superman and ssj3 Goku whould be either dazed or KOed.



My manga and anime get crossed sometimes, but i swear gokou has been near the sun before without dieing, if we count dbgt ( though he is underpowered) sun heat doesnt make him sweat.



> Superman's technique's and intellect are also top notch, and will beat ssj3 Goku.



Superman has the same technique an adverage man would have with superpowers, gokou actually has a fighting style.


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## Bullet (Feb 7, 2006)

> Does he need ssj3? personally i think ssj2 is enough, and if it is in gokous world, considering the sun could be diffrent, he could be weakened already.



SSJ2 whould break his hand on Superman, he doesn't have enough punching power to take him down, even in ssj3, Goku's punches won't be that threatning to Superman.



> My manga and anime get crossed sometimes, but i swear gokou has been near the sun before without dieing, if we count dbgt ( though he is underpowered) sun heat doesnt make him sweat.



Goku has never been near the sun (in DBZ) and GT isn't cannon (even though Goku wasn't hit with that much heat from Nova Shinron, they were interrupted).



> Superman has the same technique an adverage man would have with superpowers, gokou actually has a fighting style.



Superman has been trained by Mongul II, Batman, WW, has a 1,000 years of battle experince and trainning, and know's Kyptonian MAs (which is there own fighting style), he's a very skilled fighter and has actullay used them in combat.


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

wtf superman is losing..


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## Bullet (Feb 7, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> wtf superman is losing..




Goku has alot more fans then any character I have ever know. 

Anyways I'll vote for the Man of Steel!


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## unknowndanex (Feb 7, 2006)

i know you're not blaming anything on fans bullet.

you're already in question on the WW thread.


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## Bullet (Feb 7, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i know you're not blaming anything on fans bullet.
> 
> you're already in question on the WW thread.



Yes I am, along with haters!


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## Rice Ball (Feb 7, 2006)

If you made a matchup-  Living Tribune v Goku.

I'm sure Goku would get more votes on this forum.
Logic go's like this-

DBZ fan- Whos the Living tribune
Random- Think of him as God
DBZ fan- Well Goku kicks Kami's ass so Goku wins.


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

This battledome used to be really well informed....I blame cartoon network.


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## Zoro - inactive (Feb 7, 2006)

Goku again.


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

> Goku again.


 

If you picked Goku in this battle you shouldn't be allowed in the Battledome...seriously.


Superman moves 99% the speed of light. If you use the strongest versions Superman really not a fight. But we will use post.

1. Superman can survive is space.

2. He's stronger.

3. He's faster.

4. He's more durable.

5. He's invunerable as there will be no Kryptonite in this fight.

6. wtf thats all he needs right there no more listing.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 7, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> If you picked Goku in this battle you shouldn't be allowed in the Battledome...seriously.
> 
> 
> Superman moves 99% the speed of light. If you use the strongest versions Superman really not a fight. But we will use post.
> ...




you don't know the extent of Goku's strength, because while superman is lifting things, Goku is fighting.  Goku has been training under several times Earth's gravity, meaning that someone used to normal gravity wouldn't be able to see Goku really move.  Its like a cheating way of hitting the speed of light.  You can't say Superman is more durable cause he hasn't faced a DBZ character to make that comparison.

You just listed superman powers and think thats it.

Goku is fast, strong, very durable, will power is out of this world.  and the most important factor, his skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>superman.

just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they should be put out of a battledome.

and no i'm not one to put Goku over Living Tribunal.  or even Silver Surfer for that matter.  i wouldn't put him over Genis-Vell.  i wouldn't put him over Superman Prime or the Spectre.  stop whining because boy in blue ain't gettin the votes yall want him to get.


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

> you don't know the extent of Goku's strength, because while superman is lifting things, Goku is fighting. Goku has been training under several times Earth's gravity, meaning that someone used to normal gravity wouldn't be able to see Goku really move. Its like a cheating way of hitting the speed of light. You can't say Superman is more durable cause he hasn't faced a DBZ character to make that comparison.
> 
> You just listed superman powers and think thats it.
> 
> ...


 
Because it is it. You must have never read any superman comics. You can't debate with just dbz knowledge. 

Goku isn't even the strongest in his own manga.


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## Atlast (Feb 7, 2006)

Some people says that SSJ2 is enough to beat the man of steel,okay lets recall from vegeta saga(before they go to planet earth).as you see,vegeta doesn't seems to be use all his effort just to explode that planet.in that case those THIN POWER BLAST of vegeta totally explodes that planet instantly.

Now if we recalling back to freeza who less effort exploding the planet vegeta together with the millions of population of the saiyans was amazingly horrable.meaning on that particular event freeza including his final stage of transformation CAN explodes the whole solar system instantly or maybe the whole galaxy(i'm not sure).

Now that there something exist like SUPERSAIYAN,BEFORE that particular event which they can explodes a planet less effort instantly, how much more about SSJ2 and SSJ3 series?the fact that they have cares from their planet earth and someone innocent ppl will involved is said to be,pushing them to be careful or minimize their fight.
On the Super Android 17 vs. SSJ Goku,goku punches Super A17 on his chest and push 17 or thrown him ALMOST AROUND THE WORLD!


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 7, 2006)

Atlast said:
			
		

> Some people says that SSJ2 is enough to beat the man of steel,okay lets recall from vegeta saga(before they go to planet earth).as you see,vegeta doesn't seems to be use all his effort just to explode that planet.in that case those THIN POWER BLAST of vegeta totally explodes that planet instantly.



That was filler, never happened in the manga so it dosnt count.



			
				Atlast said:
			
		

> Now if we recalling back to freeza who less effort exploding the planet vegeta together with the millions of population of the saiyans was amazingly horrable.



Im pretty sure that was a special attack designed to destroy planets. The explosion was not "planet engulfing" in magnitude, what happens is that it burrows down to the core of the planet and then detonates ripping the planet apart. Its still a powerful blast, but not anywhere near enough to destroy a planet straight out. If you want to know more about the difference between blowing something up from the outside and blowing something apart from the inside, watch Armageddon 



			
				Atlast said:
			
		

> meaning on that particular event freeza including his final stage of transformation CAN explodes the whole solar system instantly or maybe the whole galaxy(i'm not sure).



Where in the world did you get this???? Frezia could never destory solar systems....not even close.


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

> On the Super Android 17 vs. SSJ Goku,goku punches Super A17 on his chest and push 17 or thrown him ALMOST AROUND THE WORLD!


 

 Sigh. Seriously, Goku couldn't even beat him as ssj 4 but turns into a kid then beats him.... that made no sense.


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## Atlast (Feb 7, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Sigh. Seriously, Goku couldn't even beat him as ssj 4 but turns into a kid then beats him.... that made no sense.


It was Super A17 who suck his energy so it doesnt count for superman.


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## Reznor (Feb 7, 2006)

> Sigh. Seriously, Goku couldn't even beat him as ssj 4 but turns into a kid then beats him.... that made no sense.


 Situations are almost MORE important than tiers in GT.

17 let himself die.

I'm staying out of this.


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

> It was Super A17 who suck his energy so it doesnt count for superman.


 
Yet It took goku how long to figure out energy attacks wouldnt work? Yeah brilliant strategist.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 7, 2006)

Superman's been punched nearly around the world before and got up completely unphased. Next.


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## Atlast (Feb 7, 2006)

> Im pretty sure that was a special attack designed to destroy planets. The explosion was not "planet engulfing" in magnitude, what happens is that it burrows down to the core of the planet and then detonates ripping the planet apart. Its still a powerful blast, but not anywhere near enough to destroy a planet straight out. If you want to know more about the difference between blowing something up from the outside and blowing something apart from the inside, watch Armageddon



I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT SCIENTIFICALLY _honestly speaking its not what you think_.but base that, even the millions of saiyan population DOESNT stop that giant energy ball of freeza is said to be powerful than you think.its not scientifically marks/target the crater or inner core of planet vegeta nor that energyball was really powerful enough for them.



> Where in the world did you get this???? Frezia could never destory solar systems....not even close.


Thats why i'm assuming things like that(its not an assumption) its because freeza hasnt show his all might.so if you are judging freeza on his fight inside the planet namek it will be an nonsense.he doesnt want to end the fight before goku become Supersaiyan but rather he wants him/all of them to suffer!


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 7, 2006)

You know what, I was thinking. If DBZ characters can supossedly blow up entire planets straight out, then how come when Vegita (Majin, SSJ2) self destructed and expelled ALL of his energy at once, Earth wasnt blown up? He couldnt really have been holding back in that type of situation, if he can make a bigger blast without self destructing why did he self destruct? The explosion he caused was huge, but no where near planet destroying in the least. Why is this?


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## Atlast (Feb 7, 2006)

Basically. the intension of vegeta is to target Fatbuu which i think is very close to vegeta's distance.the other one was vegeta who has a good/clean intension that he was not fighting for himself at all(as for now) -accroding to Piccolo.
Vegeta was totally surrender of attacking Fatbuu because it's useless,he keeps regenarated and regenarated.all the punches and body blow of vegeta doesn't credit against the immortal like body of Fatbuu.
And it features that.Fatbuu was the only one who Hit the selfdestruct of Vegeta which cause fatbuu to polvarize into pieces(before he revived)w/c he thought it was over.Plus,you know that fatbuu is really hard to hurt nor damage and polvariz, Don't you?
So it is a pleasure that nothing happens on EaRTH.

And the last but not the least.Vegeta was almost running out of energy Due of Fatbuu's rubber jelly that coils him up and then punches him several times.
So the self destruct wasn't show it's full potential afterall.


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

Um id none of your pics work.... you musta didnt copy the direct link.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 7, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Um id none of your pics work.... you musta didnt copy the direct link.



They work if you copy and paste the url into your address bar manually.

Those scans are only the begginning of it all too, if anyone needs more proof I can pull out more scans 

EDIT: nvm, the links are messed up I guess


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## Atlast (Feb 7, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Yet It took goku how long to figure out energy attacks wouldnt work? Yeah brilliant strategist.



In the case like that.Superman will be a punchingBag over the great martial artist and godlike strenght by Goku!its because Superman can't suck energy.


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## Orotachi (Feb 7, 2006)

Atlast said:
			
		

> In the case like that.Superman will be a punchingBag over the great martial artist and godlike strenght by Goku!its because Superman can't suck energy.


Hey! dont felt like that.You know this is the rematch,so Goku will absolutely immune against superman attacks!
EDIT:This rematch is Unfair for Superman.he's not a saiyan


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

um what?


He can't become immune to being grabbed and put in space....


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## Orotachi (Feb 7, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> um what?
> 
> 
> He can't become immune to being grabbed and put in space....



As we seen early on, that before freeza destroyed planet Vegeta,We already saw that the saiyans including Bardock was already outside their orbit(planet)Without any Astronomical suit.meaning they CAN Breath at any cost.

So anyway,is that the new strategy of superman?


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## Shiron (Feb 7, 2006)

Bardock is filler...


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## Tousenz (Feb 7, 2006)

Read the Battledome powers sticky. Like Id suggested.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 7, 2006)

number one superman is more likely gonna lose because its a rematch.

i have read many superman comics, and they don't tell me that goku would win.  i don't even like to compare it honestly because the universes are too different.  but if u are referring to planet destroying attacks, the dbz characters know exactly how to target their attacks, Frieza's attack was a planet destroying only attack, it was just directed to destroy the planet.

why would the dbz characters blow up the earth and everyone they know and love, think about it will you.

anyways, Superman's speed will not be a factor cause i don't believe him to be faster than goku, you can show all the pics you want but they are not relative to DBZ so it wouldn't matter.  Goku's skill level is far above superman, he lives and breathes the martial arts.  He fights constantly, and when he ain't fighting, he is training.  Goku lives to fight.

Goku will beat Superman in the first match, and the rematch.


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## K I S K E (Feb 7, 2006)

Super Man.  he is on earth, as is Goku.  Super Man has an infinite amount of energy, and hits harder.  I say SUpes.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 7, 2006)

since when did superman have an infinite amount of energy???????????????

dbz characters mess up their whole surroundings from standing in one spot.


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## Orotachi (Feb 7, 2006)

Meijin no Kori said:
			
		

> Bardock is filler...


Fillers or non fillers,its the same(the Saiyan can breath through space). the only none,is the story existence or enough feature in manga(TV series).
Bardock was the flashback of freeza right before he transform against vegeta(thinking,he doesnt need to transform)and looking at those weakling saiyans AT THE OUTSIDE OF PLANET VEGETA! to suffer against his Giant energy ball.


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## K I S K E (Feb 7, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> since when did superman have an infinite amount of energy???????????????
> 
> dbz characters mess up their whole surroundings from standing in one spot.



What I meant is this:  Super Man gets energy from the sun...the sun is out...So, you know.


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## Orotachi (Feb 7, 2006)

> Super Man. he is on earth, as is Goku. Super Man has an infinite amount of energy, and hits harder. I say SUpes.


Son Goku. he's a veterran in terms of many opponents he handled and BEAT!and the most frightenening there was CELL w/c i think he knows alot about Goku and his former opponents Skills! which we didnt seen goku reclaimed at all and perhaps he loves fighting.

As for Superman.................???????????????


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## Orotachi (Feb 7, 2006)

Missing Sannin said:
			
		

> What I meant is this:  Super Man gets energy from the sun...the sun is out...So, you know.


Gengkidama is what i think more powerfull in terms of sharing ENERGIES!than what you think(Supers)
Now that you said that,Goku would use all the ENERGIES AROUND the universe and then BOOM it to superman.To be safe Goku will just teleport to kaioh sama's world.


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## K I S K E (Feb 8, 2006)

Yeah, I sppose Goku can do that, but that takes alot of concentration, and in that time... Supes could kill him with ease.  Not to mention, Goku has to power up to atleast SS3 to get anywhere near Supes,a nd that takes time too.


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## Orotachi (Feb 8, 2006)

Missing Sannin said:
			
		

> Yeah, I sppose Goku can do that, but that takes alot of concentration, and in that time... Supes could kill him with ease.  Not to mention,


NO.I'm comparing their energy shared usage(gengkidama)against supers.But if someone like superman betrayed Goku while he's performing the Gengkidama,Well Son goku should move on the fight.
Not to mentioned that Goku could deattached his hands from those loaded energy ball that would make him hide or teleport somewhere Supers don't know.Until the Gengkidama was fully loaded.A good example is freeza vs. Goku.Unless his hands are up!



> Goku has to power up to atleast SS3 to get anywhere near Supes,a nd that takes time too.


If you look at goku vs. Superbuu.you finally realize that Goku could transform automatically into SSJ3 instantly!


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 8, 2006)

You know what, if there is any doubt in anyones mind as to whether Superman will beat the crap out of Goku (which there really shouldnt, Superman would kill him) Superman can always just go for a little sun dip. Goku is beyond royally screwed then, he wouldnt even be able to put up a fight.

Superman wins anyways, but if you somehow thing Goku would win, Superman goes for the sundip and wins. Game over.


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## Atlast (Feb 8, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> You know what, if there is any doubt in anyones mind as to whether Superman will beat the crap out of Goku (which there really shouldnt, Superman would kill him) Superman can always just go for a little sun dip. Goku is beyond royally screwed then, he wouldnt even be able to put up a fight.
> 
> Superman wins anyways, but if you somehow thing Goku would win, Superman goes for the sundip and wins. Game over.



NO! Wrong line,its Son goku who'd win this rematch,he's already immune on their first bout. live it!


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## konflikti (Feb 8, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> Son Goku. he's a veterran in terms of many opponents he handled and BEAT!and the most frightenening there was CELL w/c i think he knows alot about Goku and his former opponents Skills! which we didnt seen goku reclaimed at all and perhaps he loves fighting.
> 
> As for Superman.................???????????????


The amount of super-villains Superman has beated is way over the amount of super-villains Goku has defeated. Superman ain't brawler, he knows martial arts. 



			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> Gengkidama is what i think more powerfull in terms of sharing ENERGIES!than what you think(Supers)
> Now that you said that,Goku would use all the ENERGIES AROUND the universe and then BOOM it to superman.To be safe Goku will just teleport to kaioh sama's world.


Genkidama doesn't work on Superman since he is pure of heart.



			
				Atlast said:
			
		

> NO! Wrong line,its Son goku who'd win this rematch,he's already immune on their first bout. live it!


Saiy-jin ability gives power boost, no immunity. If immunity were the case, there hardly would have been matches.

Goku has slightly bigger possibility of win in re-match(than the first), but Superman still dominates he in pretty much every area. (speed, strenght, ranged attacks)


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## acritarch (Feb 8, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Goku has alot more fans then any character I have ever know.
> 
> Anyways I'll vote for the Man of Steel!



I think Bruce Lee has more fans than Goku................

btw, how can anyone say Goku can match Supes speed? That's really really really really *reaaaaaaaaaally* stupid. Supes owns Goku even with his IT.

quoted for truth:



			
				tousen said:
			
		

> If you picked Goku in this battle you shouldn't be allowed in the Battledome...seriously.
> 
> 
> Superman moves 99% the speed of light. If you use the strongest versions Superman really not a fight. But we will use post.
> ...


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 8, 2006)

Atlast said:
			
		

> NO! Wrong line,its Son goku who'd win this rematch,he's already immune on their first bout. live it!



Do you even know what sun dipping does to Superman? Lets just say you can think of it as Superman going Super Kryptonian  lol

Goku could get like twice a strong after losing the first match, it wouldnt matter, the shortest amount of sun dipping increases Supermans strength, speed, and power in general by large multiples. It would be over almost before it started after that.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 8, 2006)

i gotta say there are way more superman fans than goku considering everytime a thread comes up with these two, its a majority of superman fans against goku.   and they all say the same thing, its goku fans.  look back on the threads and re-think the situation.

Superman would lose though, you can't really say Supes is faster than him.  You have nothing to base it on.


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## konflikti (Feb 8, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> Superman would lose though, you can't really say Supes is faster than him.  You have nothing to base it on.


Umm... We have numbers?


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## Rice Ball (Feb 8, 2006)

Supes is the near the same speed as Flash.
One Comic they had a race to find out who was fastest (through space etc).


Think we all agree Flash Speed > Goku right?


As for fans-

Theres 4 types of people who vote in this sort of thread.

1. Dragonball Z fans, who vote for Goku without knowing facts (See Zoro's post)
2. Superman Fans who vote without knowing the facts.
3. People who read the thread, look at the list of powers and vote for the ones they feel are the strongest 
4. People who have a good knowledge of both and vote for the one they believe would win.

Look at the replys by the people who have voted for Goku and figure out which zone they belong in.


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## Orotachi (Feb 8, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Do you even know what sun dipping does to Superman? Lets just say you can think of it as Superman going Super Kryptonian  lol
> 
> Goku could get like twice a strong after losing the first match, it wouldnt matter, the shortest amount of sun dipping increases Supermans strength, speed, and power in general by large multiples. It would be over almost before it started after that.



Looks like you don't understand what immune means heh. 
Anyway, if you're basing superman who's dipping on the sun,it was a very very very different when he was taking alot of punishment coming by Goku.Supers would LOSE all of his energy and almost undressed him with the Assault.besides he doesn't know enough against a brilliant martial artist like goku.
Meaning to say...that the former enemies are not big deal for Son Goku,they are just Crap on his Way.(see the 6 evil dragonballs against Goku)

And to know that goku is alot of faster than superman:

1.As we seen on freeza saga he actually training(exercise) a couple of THOUSAND TIMES again THOUSAND TIMES OR REPEATETION between 20 to 50 times of gravity and the 100 times of gravity was said to be IMMUNE together with his suffer of pain(heavy load) when he was tight on the sellings.
so what can you say about that?

2.Before goku visit his love ones on earth(before buu saga),we saw him training.he was quickly punching and kicking there loaded with 2 tons of weight,each arms and legs.FLYING! again FLYING! he has no hard effort with that.
And if we are talking about the 10 tons or weights that he couldn't resist,think again he wasnt a supersaiyan afterall.so when he transform itself,those each 10 tons of weight will surely no effort.

How about Supermans Achievement or training in his life?

1.????????????????????
2.????????????????>>>>>>>>>>???????????

YOU MEAN NONE? so meaning if the fight goes on in the gravity room he would just like a sitting dock target there for Goku!
You know its possible its because he doesn't experience it before.RIGHT!


----------



## Rice Ball (Feb 8, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> How about Supermans Achievement or training in his life?
> 
> 1.????????????????????
> 2.????????????????>>>>>>>>>>???????????
> ...




Does that mean you don't know or do you honestly think Superman has had no training and hasn't faught against anyone?


----------



## Orotachi (Feb 8, 2006)

What i mean there is,the above list of mine was, Supers has no record of doing those grueling exercise.like Son Goku.
and if we're talking about the Achievement or faught against anyone,think again,superman is NOT a SAIYAN compared to Son Goku.its because Son Goku would be immune after he recover from supermans(or anyother) attacks on their first bout.and most of all he's recovery system is far different than the prince of the saiyan,he's more powerful after he recover than vegeta.and dont answer me like SCORPIO3.14 that superman was dipping on the sun.         Note: that they are fighting,not dipping on the sun.

Again.............Supermans Potential is now nothing with this second fight,Live it!


----------



## Rice Ball (Feb 8, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> What i mean there is,the above list of mine was, Supers has no record of doing those grueling exercise.like Son Goku.
> and if we're talking about the Achievement or faught against anyone,think again,superman is NOT a SAIYAN compared to Son Goku.its because Son Goku would be immune after he recover from supermans(or anyother) attacks on their first bout.and most of all he's recovery system is far different than the prince of the saiyan,he's more powerful after he recover than vegeta.and dont answer me like SCORPIO3.14 that superman was dipping on the sun.         Note: that they are fighting,not dipping on the sun.
> 
> Again.............Supermans Potential is now nothing with this second fight,Live it!



Have you read any JLA or Man of Steel comics?
Second thoughts i know the answer by what you have typed up so far.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 8, 2006)

I'm pretty sure Orotachi's a troll at this point, but just to be sure would someone mind posting the pic of sun-dipped Superman pushing against the 400-quintillion ton weight with one hand?


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## konflikti (Feb 8, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> 1.As we seen on freeza saga he actually training(exercise) a couple of THOUSAND TIMES again THOUSAND TIMES OR REPEATETION between 20 to 50 times of gravity and the 100 times of gravity was said to be IMMUNE together with his suffer of pain(heavy load) when he was tight on the sellings.
> so what can you say about that?


Err, do you write your shit with other language and then toss it in Babelfish or something?


----------



## Nice Gai (Feb 8, 2006)

Well I just remember when the kids were on the school bus and it went over the ledge Goku was struggling to keep it up in his regular form! Didnt Piccolo help him? I just think on the fighter side Goku is more skilled but in strength I have to give it to supes.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 8, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Umm... We have numbers?



numbers on who, superman.  thats about it, you have numbers on superman's speed. 

like i have said too many time, while DC is writing impressive numbers, DBZ characters are fighting.  DBZ is not busy talkin bout 99 percent light speed and how much someone can lift.  they are busy training and fighting.  thats all goku does, train and fight, train and fight.  the guy lives and breathes fighting.

gravity training says a lot considering that they have chi, they alter gravity around them at will because they are too used to 450x gravity and above.

superman cannot beat goku, i actually think superman would win against just SSJ Goku to be honest.  he'll struggle with 20x kaioken


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## Rice Ball (Feb 8, 2006)

unknowndanex Please answer this before you post anything else.

Have you read any JLA or Man of Steel/Superman Comics?
Have you seen fights between superman and Darksied/Doomsday/lobo?

Is your impression of superman from the TV show or something?


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## unknowndanex (Feb 8, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> unknowndanex Please answer this before you post anything else.
> 
> Have you read any JLA or Man of Steel/Superman Comics?
> Have you seen fights between superman and Darksied/Doomsday/lobo?
> ...



i've read plenty of JLA, MoS, and Superman comics, and none of them says Superman can beat goku.  i haven't made one false statement about superman, don't question me just cause i don't believe you.

i've seen him fight doomsday and get killed, i've seen him fight doomsday after imperiex beat the hell out of him and put fear in his heart (so superman used it to his advantage).  i've seen him beat the downgraded darkseid that used to kick his ass all over the place.  i already posted plenty of darkseid kicking supes ass picks in the hulk vs superman thread.  supes has also lost to lobo before.  so what is your point here.  actually in their first meeting superman got the shit kicked out of him by lobo.  but superman has uppercut into orbit but this just proves my point i made in another thread on the history of superman.

he normally loses the first fight against someone on his level.  and i don't watch justice league on cartoon network to answer your other question cause i don't like the way they characterize some of the people.

now back to my current argument, superman can't beat goku.

any other questions???????


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## konflikti (Feb 8, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> numbers on who, superman.  thats about it, you have numbers on superman's speed.
> 
> like i have said too many time, while DC is writing impressive numbers, DBZ characters are fighting.  DBZ is not busy talkin bout 99 percent light speed and how much someone can lift.  they are busy training and fighting.  thats all goku does, train and fight, train and fight.  the guy lives and breathes fighting.
> 
> ...


Yes, we have numbers on Superman. You don't have numbers on Goku. So logically, you don't go telling that they are equal, or that Goku is faster, unlike you just did. Comparing the feats in DBZ and numbers of Superman points that Superman is faster though.

Altering gravity and stuff is cool and all, but only a theory. Unless you can point me to canon hint of that though.


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## Orotachi (Feb 8, 2006)

> Have you read any JLA or Man of Steel comics?
> Second thoughts i know the answer by what you have typed up so far.


Ofcourse. YES! 
Second thought,stop making excuses regarding GOKU'S IMMUNITY AGAINST HIS OPPONENTS SPECIALLY LIKE superman.

you don't have any evidense on how would the saiyan stop them from becoming strong!



[KnKF-Doremi]Kasimasi ~Girl Meets Girl~ - 03 [8250FD10].avi 



[KnKF-Doremi]Kasimasi ~Girl Meets Girl~ - 03 [8250FD10].avi 

[KnKF-Doremi]Kasimasi ~Girl Meets Girl~ - 03 [8250FD10].avi 

[KnKF-Doremi]Kasimasi ~Girl Meets Girl~ - 03 [8250FD10].avi 



> I'm pretty sure Orotachi's a troll at this point, but just to be sure would someone mind posting the pic of sun-dipped Superman pushing against the 400-quintillion ton weight with one hand?


You funny mess bogger.what are you saying with that 


> Err, do you write your shit with other language and then toss it in Babelfish or something?


WTF,are you talking about? sorry for my wrong grammar(i'm in hurry eh!)well atleast i've got something to used on my word rather than your ERRRRRRRR.....statement.Anyway are you a dog?


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## Rice Ball (Feb 8, 2006)

I don't believe you.

And i don't think anyone else here does 

Your main arguement is that Goku trained at 100x earths gravity, and thats the reason hes so strong. Yes thats a commonly known DBZ fact, another one is that Goku can't breathe in space, Freezer has already stated that Goku would die with Namak  should the planet be destroyed.

Goku training at higher gravitys doesn't in any way show us Goku's speed or his power.  Dragonball Z in general changes its laws of physics and gravity on an almost episode bases, for example, Vegita at the begining of the Sajyan Saga was able to destroy a planet with ease, while at the begining of the Boo Saga, at SS2+ his full power blast was destroyed at part of a stadium instead of the planet (like it should of).
 His strenght at the begining of the Cell saga, he wasn't able to lift a bus full of children, so clearly all that training at 100x earths gravity really helped him.


On the other hand the DC writers gave us facts about supermans strenghts and speed.  Like how meny tonnes he can press and how fast he moves.

as for other questions yes i do have some.

Please post when Goku moved at his fastest speed. (Instant Translocation is a teleportation, not fighting speed)
Please post when Goku lifted the heavyest weight.


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## Orotachi (Feb 8, 2006)

> Altering gravity and stuff is cool and all, but only a theory. Unless you can point me to canon hint of that though.



If i ask you something,if a ordinary person for example controls the 100 times gravity does he become strong and faster? of course yes!

In reality.many weight lifters prove that,weight training makes you strong or even faster.thats why its the only thing to make a person strong not unless you are relying on supermans unexplainable strenght Edit: unexplainable not theory.


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## Orotachi (Feb 8, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> I don't believe you.
> 
> And i don't think anyone else here does



Believe what you believe,I Don't Care.



> Your main arguement is that Goku trained at 100x earths gravity, and thats the reason hes so strong. Yes thats a commonly known DBZ fact, another one is that Goku can't breathe in space, Freezer has already stated that Goku would die with Namak  should the planet be destroyed.



My statement about goku,not only because of weight training is he's previews fights or even horrable defeat makes him strong.thats why i say it again he's now immune on anyother attack of superman.
And about the breathing outside the earth is totally cancel with mine.
again.as you see freeza was looking at those saiyans right before he explodes the planet vegeta.you notice that those saiyan was outside from their planet without any astronomical suit.
As for goku,he stated that he believes that he could do that like freeza if the planet namek would destroyed.but since he didn't test it before,he just have to find a way get out on that planet immediately.


> Goku training at higher gravitys doesn't in any way show us Goku's speed or his power.  Dragonball Z in general changes its laws of physics and gravity on an almost episode bases, for example, Vegita at the begining of the Sajyan Saga was able to destroy a planet with ease, while at the begining of the Boo Saga, at SS2+ his full power blast was destroyed at part of a stadium instead of the planet (like it should of).
> His strenght at the begining of the Cell saga, he wasn't able to lift a bus full of children, so clearly all that training at 100x earths gravity really helped him.


Now this is what i called uncreadible argument.

What do you mean by full power blast?if that is his full power blast well vegeta wouldnt fight with goku.because of wasted energy.most of the DBZ episode featured that they are not rely at all damages they've made perhaps they proven them selves that their priority is to hurt their enemy rather than
destroying nonsense 
and if i ask you.why did vegeta stop the planet destroyer attack of kidbuu's first appearance attack? you know that kidbuu can destroyed the earth already without CARE! you know also that vegeta could do that too.
and why did he loss to kidbuu. right?

In that case. DBZ fight is not all about destroying something like planets or lifting something.its major priority is to defeat the one who could destroyed anything.




> On the other hand the DC writers gave us facts about supermans strenghts and speed.  Like how meny tonnes he can press and how fast he moves.
> 
> as for other questions yes i do have some.
> 
> ...


Pushing is simple,But:
1.Pressing is too different from wearing the weight(gravity) during a thousand times of exercise.Push-up,Sit-up and Dumbbell punching.
2.Pressing is different from lifting while quickly punching nor kick.


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## konflikti (Feb 8, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> If i ask you something,if a ordinary person for example controls the 100 times gravity does he become strong and faster? of course yes!
> 
> In reality.many weight lifters prove that,weight training makes you strong or even faster.thats why its the only thing to make a person strong not unless you are relying on supermans unexplainable strenght Edit: unexplainable not theory.


Let me translate this to english first, because most people don't read retard:
"Do you think that if ordinary person is able to train in 100x gravity, he becomes stronger and faster? Well, yes he does!"

"In reality, you can see from weight-lifters that weight training makes you strong or even fast. That's because weight-lifting and training is the only way to gain more strenght. Unless if there is some unexplained factor of course."

Wtf, dude? Goku is a super-human from the day one too. The only reason he is able to do his stuff is because he isn't ordinary human. He doesn't control gravity, he doesn't become immune to stuff, *THERE IS NO IMMUNITY*. Weight-lifting doesn't make you that much faster. Supermans strenght is perfectly explained. He is alien, and is powered up by our Sun. How hard was that to understand?



			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> WTF,are you talking about? sorry for my wrong grammar(i'm in hurry eh!)well atleast i've got something to used on my word rather than your ERRRRRRRR.....statement.



Like this one then:


			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> You funny mess bogger.what are you saying with that


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## Gunners (Feb 8, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> You know what, I was thinking. If DBZ characters can supossedly blow up entire planets straight out, then how come when Vegita (Majin, SSJ2) self destructed and expelled ALL of his energy at once, Earth wasnt blown up? He couldnt really have been holding back in that type of situation, if he can make a bigger blast without self destructing why did he self destruct? The explosion he caused was huge, but no where near planet destroying in the least. Why is this?




My guess is the energy for compressed to a specific location, if he wanted to he could have spread it out to the size of the earth and done more damage.

The same way you could stab a wall with a knife, it would go though a specific point, put the same force on a hammer and i could wipe the wall out.


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## Orotachi (Feb 8, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Let me translate this to english first, because most people don't read retard:
> "Do you think that if ordinary person is able to train in 100x gravity, he becomes stronger and faster? Well, yes he does!"
> 
> "In reality, you can see from weight-lifters that weight training makes you strong or even fast. That's because weight-lifting and training is the only way to gain more strenght. Unless if there is some unexplained factor of course."


HEY.don't call me Retarded! its not a competetion of grammar afterall. or even in spelling.ANYWAY,theres no prize at all after this.Right?



> Wtf, dude? Goku is a super-human from the day one too. The only reason he is able to do his stuff is because he isn't ordinary human. He doesn't control gravity, he doesn't become immune to stuff, *THERE IS NO IMMUNITY*. Weight-lifting doesn't make you that much faster. Supermans strenght is perfectly explained. He is alien, and is powered up by our Sun. How hard was that to understand?




Stop making excuses,Goku could handled now superman on this rematch and Goku can push his limits.i don't know if there such thing as Supersaiyan 5 after that first big battle,its possible!


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## unknowndanex (Feb 8, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Yes, we have numbers on Superman. You don't have numbers on Goku. So logically, you don't go telling that they are equal, or that Goku is faster, unlike you just did. Comparing the feats in DBZ and numbers of Superman points that Superman is faster though.
> 
> Altering gravity and stuff is cool and all, but only a theory. Unless you can point me to canon hint of that though.



yeah, goku charging up and making the ground shatter around him and go up in the air sometimes.............hmmmmmmmmm i would call that altering gravity.  and i never said goku is faster than superman, i said superman isn't faster than goku, so i could've said they're equal.  i also said speed wouldn't be a factor.  comparing feats you say???????

vegeta could blow up a planet back in the saiyan saga, when they were no way near the power they are now.  what are you talkin bout man.  going faster than the eyes can see, and they only way you can see them fight is by focusing chi. come on man get serious.



			
				 Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> You know what, I was thinking. If DBZ characters can supossedly blow up entire planets straight out, then how come when Vegita (Majin, SSJ2) self destructed and expelled ALL of his energy at once, Earth wasnt blown up? He couldnt really have been holding back in that type of situation, if he can make a bigger blast without self destructing why did he self destruct? The explosion he caused was huge, but no where near planet destroying in the least. Why is this?



ok i'm really tired of seeing this same thing brought up by so many people.  but scorpio you asked nicely so you're not included.  dbz characters can blow up planets at will if they want to, but why would goku blow up a planet killing his friends.  when vegeta blew up the stadium, why would he blow up a planet and kill goku when he is trying to coerce him to fight him.  when frieza wanted to blow up a planet, he did it.  when vegeta wanted to blow up earth, he could've but goku stopped him.  when cell wanted to blow up earth, he could've but Goku IT'd him and blew up King Kai's.  are you asking me is Cell stronger than Majin Vegeta?  Frieza?  or the Vegeta from back in the saiyan saga?  the answer would be no.  Vegeta didn't want to blow a planet up that his wife and child were living on.



> Wtf, dude? Goku is a super-human from the day one too. The only reason he is able to do his stuff is because he isn't ordinary human. He doesn't control gravity, he doesn't become immune to stuff, THERE IS NO IMMUNITY. Weight-lifting doesn't make you that much faster. Supermans strenght is perfectly explained. He is alien, and is powered up by our Sun. How hard was that to understand?



actually, weight-lifting can make you faster.  if you run right after lifting doing leg weight-lifting your legs feel extra light, and if you run like that a lot it can make you faster because your legs get used to it.  i jumped from a 4.8 to a 4.4 40-yard dash off of doing that back in high school.

look at Vegeta.  when he trainied at 450x gravity, when he was finished that became normal gravity to him.  when he is charged up everything in normal gravity seems slow to him.  in DBZ it is the higher one's power level, the higher one's gravity, that is a fact.

come on now, when two characters lock up they create a crater in the ground sometimes.  if thats not proof, then i don't know what is.

either way, Goku wins the fight.


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## Gunners (Feb 8, 2006)

Can someone tell me, when gokou was fighting piccolo seniour, when he powered up did it cripple kid gokou, like make it harder for him to move.

And yeh, i think dbz characters somewhat alter gravity, that to me is the only explanation why the ground sinks in when they charge up, or why some characters can't move as well.


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## konflikti (Feb 8, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> yeah, goku charging up and making the ground shatter around him and go up in the air sometimes.............hmmmmmmmmm i would call that altering gravity.  and i never said goku is faster than superman, i said superman isn't faster than goku, so i could've said they're equal.  i also said speed wouldn't be a factor.  comparing feats you say???????
> 
> vegeta could blow up a planet back in the saiyan saga, when they were no way near the power they are now.  what are you talkin bout man.  going faster than the eyes can see, and they only way you can see them fight is by focusing chi. come on man get serious.


Do you need to focus chi to see cartoon characters fight? Just kidding, but personally I would call ground shatter/float a power-up effect. I don't think it has been hinted that it had anything to do with gravity. Feel free to prove me wrong.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> actually, weight-lifting can make you faster.  if you run right after lifting doing leg weight-lifting your legs feel extra light, and if you run like that a lot it can make you faster because your legs get used to it.  i jumped from a 4.8 to a 4.4 40-yard dash off of doing that back in high school.
> 
> look at Vegeta.  when he trainied at 450x gravity, when he was finished that became normal gravity to him.  when he is charged up everything in normal gravity seems slow to him.  in DBZ it is the higher one's power level, the higher one's gravity, that is a fact.
> 
> ...


I did say weight training can make you faster, but not by much. If you wanna run fast, do some other excersize. Even if this theory was canon, which is apparently isn't since you can't show any canon proof for it, how is some 450x gravity going to make Supes lose to either one of them? The guy can escape Sun gravitational pull with ease, and has hassled around black holes multiple times. Superman > gravitation


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## unknowndanex (Feb 8, 2006)

i don't know if it was canon or not, but didn't Goku blast himself away from a the gravitational pull of a star at kaioken 20?

you damn right i focus my chi when i watch the show.  

wasn't really hinted at during the manga or anime, but when you look at the way DBZ operates, thats the only thing there is.  think about it, other than going SSJ , how did Goku get stronger and faster and most importantly increased his power level...........gravity training.  same with Vegeta, the biggest jumps in power level came when they were doing gravity training.  it also explains why they are not creating sonic booms while they're fighting.

you can tell that DBZ is going off of physics kind of when SSJ3 comes into play.  you can't reach SSJ3 unless you're in another dimension.  look at it, Goku does in the Afterworld, and Gotenks did in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.  thats becasue the laws of physics were different.  even though they don't refer to gravity being the reason the ground is moving up, doesn't mean it isn't.  toriyama never really specified, but if you think about it, altering gravity can do that, and they are doing gravity training to increase power-levels.

and of course superman can escape the pull of a black hole and stuff i wasn't doubting that.  but superman has never been tested against a gravity altering being, in which that if he alters the gravity, superman will appear slower than everyone else sees him as.  enough for goku to see him..

JUST A BUNCH OF THEORY, BUT I'M USING FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!

i don't know how superman would appear to goku cause DC has never grasp that concept, but that is my reason for why superman's speed will not really be the factor in this fight.

and i believe Goku will win because his skill level is too high.


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## Rice Ball (Feb 8, 2006)

I think its best to just leave it as it is, its pretty clear hes not going to change his mind.

Going further would just degenerate this into a mindless flame war.


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## Tousenz (Feb 8, 2006)

I was just coming in here to say that rice ball.

I cant believe superman lost in the polls though...


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 8, 2006)

Wow, ignorant DBZ fans are a scary sight, I tell ya.


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## Tousenz (Feb 8, 2006)

> you can tell that DBZ is going off of physics kind of when SSJ3 comes into play. you can't reach SSJ3 unless you're in another dimension. look at it, Goku does in the Afterworld, and Gotenks did in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. thats becasue the laws of physics were different. even though they don't refer to gravity being the reason the ground is moving up, doesn't mean it isn't. toriyama never really specified, but if you think about it, altering gravity can do that, and they are doing gravity training to increase power-levels.


 

Thats not true... wth were you a dub watcher only? Goku could do ssj3 after he died and he knew Gotenks would be stronger than he was.

Had nothing to do with the Room of spirit and time.


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## Bullet (Feb 8, 2006)

Atlast said:
			
		

> In the case like that.Superman will be a punchingBag over the great martial artist and godlike strenght by Goku!its because Superman can't suck energy.



Superman waaay stronger than Goku (in any incarnation), Goku will be the punching bag, not Supes. And Superman knows MAs too.

Superman moves the Moon (Superman was weaker in this form, but was like a energy manipulator instead though).














> and i believe Goku will win because his skill level is too high.



And I think Superman skill level is much higher than Goku's.




> vegeta could blow up a planet back in the saiyan saga, when they were no way near the power they are now.



Superman is greater than a planet (he's not going to stand in one spot while there energy blast sunk into him) though. Also, Goku and Vegeta them also gets badly hurt by punches and kicks that's not even in the same league as Superman's, if Supes hit any of them with full force, I think he whould KO any of one of them; Moutain/city destroying blasts also are able to badly wound them, not planet destroying. The DBZ characters aren't that durable either, Goku in ssj2 was trying to avoid being forced into a rock from Vegeta in the cave (during there second battle in the Buu saga); that's not very good durability if he can't even take that.


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## acritarch (Feb 8, 2006)

Doesn't SSJ2/3 or whatever powerful Goku had make him slower? I think this was sometime during the Cell Saga...

I am in the process of trying to reorganize my DBZ manga files so I can scroll through them with ease (which requires taking them out of each of the folders and renaming them.. thankfully using a prog). I will try to find that.. there is no way Goku is either stronger or faster tha Supes or more durable. Goku loses.


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## Tousenz (Feb 8, 2006)

It was only when he got bigger it was ultra. Ssj3 is stronger and faster...but his endurance is like nilch.


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## Bullet (Feb 8, 2006)

> braindx said:
> 
> 
> 
> > Doesn't SSJ2/3 or whatever powerful Goku had make him slower? I think this was sometime during the Cell Saga...



I think that was only if when they increase there muscles, like Trunks did when he fought Cell; But they were still ssj, not ssj2 or 3 yet.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 8, 2006)

Let me just clear up a few things. 

1. SAIYANS DONT GET IMMUNITIES!!! When they lose they get stronger for the next fight, they dont get any immunities or anything like that, they just get a bit stronger.

2. Gravity training? Who cares. At 500 times Earth's gravity, a human who weighs 175 pounds would weigh 87,500 pounds. That is only about 43 tons. That is nothing compared to what Superman has carried. To quote Batman, "Clark can spin mountains on his little finger."

3. DBZ characters have never been shown to blow up a planet straight out. They have to blow up the core to do that which takes FAAAAAR less energy. You can blow up every single nuclear device in existance at a single point on Earth's surface and hardly dent the inner crust of the Planet (although leave a huge creater ). That same explosion at the core of the Earth would rip the planet to pieces. Superman has lived perfectly fine through an explosion that was on the surface of a moon and completely disinigrated the planetoid.

4. Sure, we cant prove beyond a doubt that Superman is faster then Goku, however every bit of evidense supports it. Goku has never shown the kind of speed Superman has shown plain and simple. Superman fans have provided evidense as to why they think Superman is faster, where is the evidense that  Goku is even close to Superman's speed?

5. Superman would win, plain and simple.


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## Id (Feb 8, 2006)

Say Goku was close to death and has achived SS3. (Sticking to the DBZ storyline) Superman was more of a match for Goku to begin with. You think just because he raises his power level its going to make a difference?

Superman vulnerable to
Magic Attack
Psychic attacks
Kryptonite
Red Sun.

Compared to Goku weakness. 

Starvation (If he fights for to long he starves, and his power goes down quick)
Can not maintain SS3 for to long. (seriously He cant, there is no way around it)

I mean what can Goku do to hurt Supes? And it wont be long before Goku starts to give in to exhaustion or starvation pitting him in a vary dangerous situation.


What superman is capable of

Superman Flies at the speed of Light or beyond.

Superman Can vibrate his molecules to avoid being hit. (that’s faster than the speed of light)

Superman Has bin shown to be able to move the moon.

Superman Heat vision, is hotter the Sun. 

Fight in outer space unaided.

Lots and Lots of Stamina (how much, more than a days worth that’s for sure.)

Superman hits so hard the earth trembles, and side effects occur (sounds familiar DBZ fans?)

Has hold a black hole in the palm of his hands. 

Superman surviving the destruction of a sun eater at ground zero. The sun eater is an enormously energetic cloud that literally eats both the energy and mass of whole stars. The sun eater was considerably larger than a star, had been in existence for millennia and had consumed the energy of many stars by traveling from galaxy to galaxy.

Supes catching a moon sized ship in travel and tossing it casually...

Supes analyzing and understanding genetic structures by just "glancing."

I mean the list just goes on. 
Now any fusion/powerup version of Goku does not match up to Superman Prime. You think a Sajin achieving a golden state is powerful, think again when you come a cross a Kriptionian achiving his golden state.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 8, 2006)

Canon Argument, a character can only be as strong as the canon evidence has shown them to be.  You might get away with a brief step beyond that by extrapolation, but going into the theoretical makes this sort of argument worthless.

For example, under times of emotional distress, Spider-man has been shown to lift upwards of 30-tons, despite the fact that his classification is "Class 15".  Under the right conditions it is not unreasonable to say he has this level of strength.  On the other side of things, Spider-man's actual durability (if you get a hit on him) is not that much better than a normal person's.

So the question of this thread comes down to how much power can the characters put out, how likely are they to hit, and how long can they stand up to the hits?

To get this ball rolling, I'll pose this:

*Spoiler*: _Big Pic_ 




Just a note, 200 Quintillion Tons = 200,000,000,000,000,000,000 Tons = 400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Pounds





That gives us a good level of strength for Superman.  Does anyone honestly think "Rematch Goku" could take this sort of punishment?  Or even "Rematch Rematch Goku"?

Feat-based Superman is 99% speed of light (that's about 663,910,463 mph) pre-sun-dip.  What's the fastest feat-based speed for Goku?  I know that early in the series he can manage to move faster than (normal) eyes can focus on him, that's about 600mph being generous.  Is he really a million times faster later in the series than he is when fighting Vegeta?  He never gave me that impression.

Duribility wise, Superman has been hit through the entire planet, and keeps on fighting.  He takes planet busting attacks in stride, that's status quo for him.  Goku tends to dodge or deflect planet busting attacks, because he has a nasty habit of dieing in the series when he doesn't.  Short of ITing to another dimension and hiding there, he's not going to be able to avoid getting hit in this fight.

There is *no contest* here.  None.  Please give up.  If we went to "What if Goku was beaten by Superman X times, how would the fight go then?" we might eventually find an "X" big enough to make him win, but that's really getting kind of far away from the actual Goku.


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## shibigoku (Feb 8, 2006)

I know that this is not Goku's style but he could teleport to Bulma, ask for some Kryptonite, go back to Superman and blast him to bits. Goku wins, a Genkidama made out of the enerygy of the people of the 4 quadrants of the universe and the people of HFIL would beat Superman. I don't he'll have the time to do one, though. It's a draw. Super speed, super strenght, combat experience and high endurance: they both have it.


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## Id (Feb 8, 2006)

shibigoku said:
			
		

> I know that this is not Goku's style but he could teleport to Bulma, ask for some Kryptonite, go back to Superman and blast him to bits.



Its not his style but Superman can fly so fast he can go back in time and kill Goku when he was younger.



			
				shibigoku said:
			
		

> Goku wins, a Genkidama made out of the enerygy of the people of the 4 quadrants of the universe and the people of HFIL would beat Superman.



That’s if Superman gives him time to gather enough energy. On the other hand Superman has already survived a similar attack, why would this be any less difference.

On the other hand, can Goku survive temperatures that exceed the sun itself?



			
				shibigoku said:
			
		

> . It's a draw. Super speed, super strenght, combat experience and high endurance: they both have it.



Strength, show me a similar feat were Goku matches Superman “moving the Moon, thowing Space ships)

Combat Experiece- I give Goku that much credit to say the least.

High Endurance - I have not seen Goku train for one day in high intensity and not be starving or exhausted. Let alone SS1, SS2 and we all know he cant maintain SS3 for to long.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 8, 2006)

Like I said this thread proves whether or not your opinions in the battledome should even matter. Goku cannot win this fight at all.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 8, 2006)

last time i checked this was Goku vs Superman, not the overpowered All-Star Superman so whats with the 200 quintillion ton picture.

either way, if yall want a feats list match then make that.  last time i checked this was a fight.  and superman's vulnerabilites does include someone kicking his ass as well.  ask lobo, grundy, doomsday, darkseid, and mongul.  they didn't use magic, they just kicked his ass.

all yall can really do is take advantage of the fact that DBZ is busy having a more entertaining manga and anime and DC is running around doing shit that has nothing to do with anything.

Bullet, Goku's skills is way above Superman, thats a crazy statement.

Goku fights nothing but universal threats, 

Frieza- threat to universe
Cell- threat to universe
Buu- threat to universe

not saying superman hasn't fought any, but yall act like goku's opponents are nothing compared to superman.  compare fights instead of feats for once in your life.

and for whoever said something about, the dub anime SSJ3 thing.  in the manga, where the hell was he when he was dead............OTHERWORLD!!!!!!!!!  where the hell was gotenks when he achieved SSJ3...............Hyperbolic Time Chamber.  did he do it before then, no.  

i see all the superman fans coming in full force, what yall held a meeting or something and said its time to take down goku once and for all.  lets go get a list of feats.

Superman can't beat Goku, and in the stipulations of this match, his chances dropped even more.

probably need another meeting, cause the polls still have goku up


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## Id (Feb 8, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> last time i checked this was Goku vs Superman, not the overpowered All-Star Superman so whats with the 200 quintillion ton picture.
> 
> either way, if yall want a feats list match then make that.  last time i checked this was a fight.  and superman's vulnerabilites does include someone kicking his ass as well.  ask lobo, grundy, doomsday, darkseid, and mongul.  they didn't use magic, they just kicked his ass.
> 
> ...




Show me scans were Goku feats are = or > Supermans.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 8, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> last time i checked this was Goku vs Superman, not the overpowered All-Star Superman so whats with the 200 quintillion ton picture.



Actually, sun dipped All-star Superman isnt that much different from sun dipped regular superman. Sun dipped regular superman pushed war world which was atleast the size of Pluto (probably bigger) and Pluto weighs about 20 quintillion tons and superman was pushing against the mass of the planet PLUS enough thrust to push the mass of the planet to light speeds. I dont think you want me to calculate how much thrust that must have been  



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> superman's vulnerabilites does include someone kicking his ass as well.  ask lobo, grundy, doomsday, darkseid, and mongul.  they didn't use magic, they just kicked his ass.



All those people were atleast as strong or stronger then superman and as durable or moreso then Superman. Goku is not even close to Superman's strength or durability. Plus most of those defeats were when Superman was at a weaker state then he is now. 



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> Goku fights nothing but universal threats,
> 
> Frieza- threat to universe
> Cell- threat to universe
> ...



First off, neither Frieza nor Cell were threats to the universe.

Secondly, Superman would destroy any one of Goku's opponents except maybe Buu for similar reasons to why Goku couldnt kill Buu without an attack that wouldnt work on Superman anyway.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> Superman can't beat Goku, and in the stipulations of this match, his chances dropped even more.



You have failed to show that Goku is even close to as strong as Superman. You have failed to show that Goku is even close ot Superman's speed. You have failed to show that Goku is even close to as durable as Superman. The only thing thing Goku has going for his is a) his energy attacks which Superman could take and b) he is a better fighting then Superman but that means little to nothing when your punches cant even phase your opponent.

Sorry, Superman wins.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> probably need another meeting, cause the polls still have goku up



Funny how Superman fans actually justify their opinions better though. Seriously look through this thread and look at the average Goku supporter and compare them to the average Superman supporter and you should really notice something there


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## Atlast (Feb 8, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Superman waaay stronger than Goku (in any incarnation), Goku will be the punching bag, not Supes. And Superman knows MAs too.
> 
> Superman moves the Moon (Superman was weaker in this form, but was like a energy manipulator instead though).
> 
> ...



I doubt it.Supers skills(punch & kick) of fighting style can't compare to goku's kungfu since childhood.Superman can't avoid instant transmission plus kamehameha!
And if you're talking that superman moves the moon,Okay! its not with his hands,together with his full force,i believe it and its a slight thing,there's no INTERSTING PIC there.Orotachi is still right that, pressing is different between lifting while doing a thousand times of exercise during floating on air.
And if i ask you about whats more interesting.planet destroyer of vegeta(before he came to earth) or supers moves slightly the moon(with i think all his might)?

AND LAST ONE.Did you know that piccolo lifted up the PYRAMID with ease using his mind(not with something energy unleashes)?and did you know that each blocks of pyramid contains more than 3 tons of weight?and that was before vegeta saga which piccolo admits there that he can't beat a single saiyan on that strenght.

And don't get me wrong,According to Gohan(when videl wants to fly),To strenghten the ki usage,is you must trainned hard your physical body,that's why we saw videl punching a heavy sandbag(after she learns).
Meaning,the strenght of your energy ki blast(which planet destroyed) is also the strenght of your physical body.(recall from what goku did on his space ship during 100x of gravity,he throws energy blast plus one energy ball and then suddenly the 2 energies hitted Goku,knowing that he couldn't survive that!)


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## unknowndanex (Feb 8, 2006)

once again, the only reason superman fans can say anything, is because DC comics unlike Toriyama goes around stating numbers and trying to show feats to say they're guy is the top dog.

but u can't say that superman is better than goku just because Toriyama chose not to fill DBZ with nothing but feats, and he concetrated more on the fighting aspect.  

superman fans justify they're opinions with nothing but numbers and feats, but yet don't wanna talk about his ass whuppings.  i'm not worried bout the average goku supporters cause i have proved that i'm not one of them.

but unless you want to ask Toriyama to make a new manga and fill it with feats you're not gonna have them.  but that doesn't mean superman is better in any of those areas.  i'd see if DBZ stated numbers that were lower than superman, but that hasn't happened.  so u really have no basis to superman being better than goku.  

why u think a thread is up saying DBZ vs All and not Superman vs All, did you notice that.  

and actually Frieza and Cell were threats.  Cell was a serious threat but he didn't care about destroying the universe cause he just wanted to fight someone stronget than him.  but Cell could blow planets up with ease if Vegeta could do it in Saiyan Saga.  and if you blow up enought planets, the backlash could have a bad effect on the universe.

and as korican has seen me say all the time, this is a bench pressing competition.  i bench 265, but just because someone benches 500 doesn't mean i can't beat them.  if you compare actual fighting instead of pulling things maybe we can get somewhere.  

master roshi could blow up the moon in Dragonball with an attack Goku could actually allow to hit him, or swat away like nothing.  whats saying superman's punch would have an effect on goku.  nothing...........but the fact that superman can lift something?

don't ask me to find something that hasn't been written or drawn by the creator cause thats just stupid, and a stupid way of trying to win an argument.

and you can't prove that superman can take goku's energy attacks or that goku's punches won't phase superman.  

and whats not saying Goku can grab supes by the hand and IT him to otherworld, or hell where there is no sun to help him??????  he doesn't have to focus hard to find those two places.

superman doesn't fight at blinding speeds as much as goku does either, no one has to focus chi to see him.  heck superman and batman was looking at flash fight WW on a screen and saw them pretty clearly, and flash was using his speed.  yet sometimes even focusing chi doesn't help see goku like when he beat recoome.   gohan, krillin, vegeta, jeice, burter, and recoome, did not even see Goku.  

and then yall will bring up snake way, look at like this.  snake way was not 10,000 miles long, it was 1,000,000 km.  the earth's circumference is 40,076 km.  so here's your speed feat

1,000,000 km in a day............ back in the saiyan saga.  well snake way is like going around the earth about 25 times.  Goku did that back in the saiyan saga, do i need to explain more Scorpio???????

any other questions about speed?

oh yeah, and it was base form, like i said Superman will struggle with kaioken times 20 after Goku's gravity training.  cause that most likely put him at the speed of light.  because superman traveling 99 percent c would do snake way in 3 seconds so of course back at that time superman was way faster.

before training under king kai Goku was going at about 114 km/h cause it took him about a year to travel snake way to king kai's even though he took a nap and fell off track.
so lets see Goku was traveling at about 41.667 km/h when he ran snake way after JUST 10x gravity training
so at that point in time kaioken times 20 would up goku to 833,340 km/h
superman is 99 percent light speed so that is about 1,079,252,849 km/h

you factor in 100x gravity training and kaioken times 20 and what do you have. you already saw how much just kaioken did when he fought vegeta.

you already see what 10x gravity did, going form 114 km/h to over 40,000 km/h is a big jump

so now lets not be stupid and say that goku with all that gravity training after i just explained how much speed he can gain from just 10x gravity training with weighted clothes i might add hasn't hit or passed the speed of light by the time he reached namek let alone the buu saga.

oh yeah and Goku had 100 kilos of weights on when he did the 100x gravity training.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 8, 2006)

Uh, Superman is only a brawler in the cartoon. He's a trained fighter with a LOT more experience than Goku. Also, Goku's IT wouldn't help him at all since Supes has reflexes that just as fast as his speed. The very second Goku tries to IT next to Clark to kamehameha him, Supes could turn his head into a fine pink mist from one single punch, or decapitate him, or burn him alive, or freeze him and then break him into thousands of pieces if he so chooses.



> And if i ask you about whats more interesting.planet destroyer of vegeta(before he came to earth) or supers moves slightly the moon(with i think all his might)?


This isn't about what's more "interesting". Vegeta blowing up a planet means nothing because Supes can planet-bust as well.



> AND LAST ONE.Did you know that piccolo lifted up the PYRAMID with ease using his mind(not with something energy unleashes)?and did you know that each blocks of pyramid contains more than 3 tons of weight?and that was before vegeta saga which piccolo admits there that he can't beat a single saiyan on that strenght.


And your point is? Why should we give a damn about what Piccalo said when A) He's not involved with the fight and B) He's weaker than Supes to begin with.

Okay, enough with the mindless babble that has nothing to do with the fight because it does nothing to show how Goku could actually BEAT SUPERMAN. Seriously, Superman holds every single advantage and Goku's best last-ditch technique(Genkai Dama) wouldn't even faze Supes because he is pure of heart and even before that, Clark wouldn't give Goku enough time to charge it anyway because he's not a run-of-the-mill shounen villian who'll stand around and take someone's best shot just to do it.


Now can we PLEASE have some sanity for once?


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 8, 2006)

> and you can't prove that superman can take goku's energy attacks or that goku's punches won't phase superman.


There are ki-users in DC and they don't hurt him. As for his punches, unless he's as strong as Doomsday or stronger, he wouldn't really do much damage to Superman(of course, that depends on whether Clark lets him hit him, though).



> and whats not saying Goku can grab supes by the hand and IT him to otherworld, or hell where there is no sun to help him?????? he doesn't have to focus hard to find those two places.


He stores energy like a battery. Taking him away from the sun wouldn't affect him at all unless the fight spanned a week or two. Hell, if Goku gets close enough to try and grab him, the fight would be over because Supes would wreck his ass right that very second. I thought you read Superman before because a lot of the crap your spewing is stuff anybody who's read even a little of post-Crisis Supes would know.



> and then yall will bring up snake way, look at like this. snake way was not 10,000 miles long, it was 1,000,000 km. the earth's circumference is 40,076 km. so here's your speed feat
> 
> 1,000,000 km in a day............ back in the saiyan saga. well snake way is like going around the earth about 25 times. Goku did that back in the saiyan saga, do i need to explain more Scorpio???????


And Goku didn't even run the entire path. He was jumping over entire sections of it to cut down on time(which completely negates the calculations you stated later on in that post), so that's not much of a speed feat.


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## Atlast (Feb 8, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:
			
		

> And your point is? Why should we give a damn about what Piccalo said when A) He's not involved with the fight and B) He's weaker than Supes to begin with.



My point is,


> "and that was before vegeta saga which piccolo admits there that he can't beat a single saiyan on that strenght."


Which means how much more about the continues episode of DBZ to GT,you know that Goku can push his limits,from Supersaiyan to  ssj4(w/c has no legend)*The Son Goku that Supers face was much more powerfull on this rematch(after he recover,read the instruction from the master mind of this thread).Don't you get it!*
And your point was?


> Okay, enough with the mindless babble that has nothing to do with the fight because it does nothing to show how Goku could actually BEAT SUPERMAN. Seriously, Superman holds every single advantage and Goku's best last-ditch technique(Genkai Dama) wouldn't even faze Supes because he is pure of heart and even before that, Clark wouldn't give Goku enough time to charge it anyway because he's not a run-of-the-mill shounen villian who'll stand around and take someone's best shot just to do it.



Is that a reason?you know that after performing instant transmission plus kamekameha or continues blows,makes supers CONFUSED! Come to think of it!what if, it would be the pattern of Son Goku?

Okay.enough with your mindless babble that has nothing to do with this rematch,its becuase Goku already immuned from all phyiscal attack coming by superman on their first bout.HOW ABOUT SUPERS,i guess he needs more training.you should be better than that.


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## Tousenz (Feb 8, 2006)

> that Goku can push his limits,from Supersaiyan to ssj4(w/c has no legend)


 

You do realize that ssj4 is weaker than ssj3 dont you?


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## Atlast (Feb 8, 2006)

Wtf.. are you talking about?


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## Tousenz (Feb 8, 2006)

> Wtf.. are you talking about?


 
Your beloved Ssj4 Goku had problems with lifting  buildings...


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 8, 2006)

> Which means how much more about the continues episode of DBZ to GT,you know that Goku can push his limits,from Supersaiyan to ssj4(w/c has no legend)The Son Goku that Supers face was much more powerfull on this rematch(after he recover,read the instruction from the master mind of this thread).Don't you get it!
> And your point was?


First off, like Tousen said, SSJ4 is weaker than SSJ3. Secondly, it doesn't matter if Goku is fully recovered from the previous fight because Superman is STILL STRONGER! Superman can fight for WEEKS without losing all that much stamina, Goku can't even go all-out for more than 20 MINUTES and even if he could, the fight wouldn't last that long anyway. Goku can eat all the senzus he wants, it still won't cover the massive gap in power between him and Superman.



> Is that a reason?you know that after performing instant transmission plus kamekameha or continues blows,makes supers CONFUSED! Come to think of it!what if, it would be the pattern of Son Goku?


He wouldn't have time to hit Supes with a kamehameha. As stated before numerous times, Superman has reflexes that are just as fast as his speed, which means the very second Goku ITs next to him, Clark could and would kill him. Also, it's considered a BAD IDEA to go melee with Supes unless you're as fast and/or as strong as he is. That's "bad" spelled as A-B-S-O-F-U-C-K-I-N-G-L-U-T-E-L-Y.



> Okay.enough with your mindless babble that has nothing to do with this rematch,its becuase Goku already immuned from all phyiscal attack coming by superman on their first bout.HOW ABOUT SUPERS,i guess he needs more training.you should be better than that.


How the hell is Goku immune to physical attacks? Make some damn sense for once.


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## Atlast (Feb 8, 2006)

> How the hell is Goku immune to physical attacks? Make some damn sense for once.


So you do really don't know much about the saiyans don't you,well i guess i won't explain it to yah.in case you don't know.


> Your beloved Ssj4 Goku had problems with lifting buildings...


Now thats what you called an irritating comment.Anyways,its all lie.it won't make a dirt on truth.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 8, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> once again, the only reason superman fans can say anything, is because DC comics unlike Toriyama goes around stating numbers and trying to show feats to say they're guy is the top dog.



Numerical evidence > speculation. 



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> but u can't say that superman is better than goku just because Toriyama chose not to fill DBZ with nothing but feats, and he concetrated more on the fighting aspect.



then you cant say that Goku is anywhere close to Superman because you dont have numbers or feats to back it up.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> superman fans justify they're opinions with nothing but numbers and feats



Which is hell of a lot better then what Goku fans use. Feats and numbers > speculation.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i'm not worried bout the average goku supporters cause i have proved that i'm not one of them.



I never said you were one of them, but since you felt compeled to bring up that there were a greater number of Goku supporters, I felt I should bring up that there is a greater quality of Superman supporters. Neither prove anything however.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> so u really have no basis to superman being better than goku.



Then you have no basis to say Goku is as good as Superman let alone beat him.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and actually Frieza and Cell were threats.  Cell was a serious threat but he didn't care about destroying the universe cause he just wanted to fight someone stronget than him.



No, Frieza and Cell were a small scale galactic threats at best. If Frezia was anywhere near a universal threat a Kai would have stopped him a looooooong time ago.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> but Cell could blow planets up with ease if Vegeta could do it in Saiyan Saga.



The Vegita thing was filler



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i bench 265, but just because someone benches 500 doesn't mean i can't beat them.



True, but if you bench 265 pounds and someone else benches 265 tons, you are dead  Not to mention if that same guy is way faster then you and way more durable then you.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> don't ask me to find something that hasn't been written or drawn by the creator cause thats just stupid, and a stupid way of trying to win an argument.



Stupid like trying to win a argument based purely on speculating how strong Goku is when you have very little facts and feats to back it up?



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and you can't prove that superman can take goku's energy attacks or that goku's punches won't phase superman.



Superman has been bunched through the Earth and has been practically unphased, thats a million times better then any punch Goku has ever thrown. 



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and whats not saying Goku can grab supes by the hand and IT him to otherworld, or hell where there is no sun to help him??????  he doesn't have to focus hard to find those two places.



Goku cant just IT to a random place, he has to focus on a Ki signature. This is of course if Goku can even hold superman long enough to concentrate on ITing.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> superman doesn't fight at blinding speeds as much as goku does either, no one has to focus chi to see him.



There is no Chi in DC universe. This proves nothing.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and then yall will bring up snake way, look at like this.  snake way was not 10,000 miles long, it was 1,000,000 km.  the earth's circumference is 40,076 km.  so here's your speed feat
> 
> 1,000,000 km in a day............ back in the saiyan saga.  well snake way is like going around the earth about 25 times.  Goku did that back in the saiyan saga, do i need to explain more Scorpio???????
> 
> ...



Please please please get your facts straight. Goku never fell of snake way, that was filler. It took him 6 months to reach the end of snake way the first time, not almost a year. It took him TWO days to reach earth after the training with king Kai. As already pointed out, Goku didnt travel the whole 1,000,000 km on the way back but took tons of short cuts. Goku got such a speed boost because he trained for 6 months at 10x earth's gravity, he only trained in 100x for only 1 day. Plus you fail to recognize that it gets exponentially harder to gain strength and speed. It may take me a few months to get my mile time down a minute, but it may take me a year to get my mile time down another 20 seconds and then years to get it down another 5 seconds. For the 100m it can take years to get your time down by 1 second lol. You assume speed and strength increases are linear with training, they are not.

Oh ya, and Im pretty sure that pyramid thing was filler.


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## acritarch (Feb 8, 2006)

Atlast, please go read the manga. You will find that a bunch of what you saw in the anime/dub is filler. You can find it on the FTP based on the thread in my signature.

Immune to physical attacks? Come on we're talking about SAIYANS not DOOMSDAY!!!!!!!!!!

----------------------------------------

Unknowndanex, you are basically the only educated person here arguing for Goku... without comparable feats to Supes no less. I mean, this is the battledome and we are supposed to post feats/stats to back up character(s) so how can you still argue against that? Feat-wise Supes is stronger, more durable, has more stamina, is faster, etc. How exactly can Goku beat him?

BTW, Supes at 99% speed of light is ~1,069,200,000,000 km/hr not 1,079,252,849 km/h.. you forgot about 1000 zeros there. Snake way is not straight. Kaioken isn't/shouldn't/couldn't something Goku can use at SSJ levels otherwise he would've used it later on against Cell and Buu. 

In any case, all of that is just speculation. I mean, are we going to believe that the Flash moved the hundreds of thousands of people miles away from a nuclear blast in less than .0000001 seconds or whatever it was? That equates to a hefty 50,000 times light speed or some absurd number that people calculated based on the 'feat'.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 8, 2006)

> So you do really don't know much about the saiyans don't you,well i guess i won't explain it to yah.in case you don't know.


How about you stop with the bullshit already? Saiyans aren't immune to physical damage nor has there been any evidence to the contrary. Goku(as well as Vegeta and Trunks) was getting his ass handed to him by friggin CELL JRS, so tell me how the hell that shows he's immune to physical attacks.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 9, 2006)

> Please please please get your facts straight. Goku never fell of snake way, that was filler. It took him 6 months to reach the end of snake way the first time, not almost a year. It took him TWO days to reach earth after the training with king Kai. As already pointed out, Goku didnt travel the whole 1,000,000 km on the way back but took tons of short cuts. Goku got such a speed boost because he trained for 6 months at 10x earth's gravity, he only trained in 100x for only 1 day. Plus you fail to recognize that it gets exponentially harder to gain strength and speed. It may take me a few months to get my mile time down a while minute, but it may take me a year to get my mile time down another 20 seconds and then years to get it down another 5. For the 100 it can take years to get your time down by 1 second lol. You assume speed and strength increases are linear with training, they are not.



he did it in one day, king kai PREDICTED it would take two days.  you refer to how long he trained, one day in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber = 1 year so whats you point and that was at 150x gravity.  but i did mean to take off the fall off of snake way part when i was editing though.  Goku trained at 20x, 50x, and 100x on the way to Namek and that was 5 days.  Along with that he was blasting himself near death to become stronger as a saiyan, so thats another added bonus.  He was also stronger and faster before stepping on the spaceship to namek because of the fight with vegeta.

these numbers are from the Daizenshyu 7 so they are facts.  i don't assume speed and strength increases are linear with training.  and i never said it increased in exactly the same magnitude.  but it does cause a major increase when even vegeta can't even see his movements after he basically beat goku back in the saiyan saga.  this information isn't speculation, these are facts.

and you really can't compare your training under optimal earth conditions to goku's training under increasing optimal conditions.  so actually he could change at the same magnitude.  did you do gravity training or something?????

all i have to say is by the time goku makes it to the buu saga or the fight with frieza, he is running circles around superman.   

also if you look at the buu saga, babidi said it takes 300kilos to destroy a planet and goku had 3000 KILOS at just SSJ, so thats a statement of how powerful this guy is.   and that was manga buddy.

goku can use IT in battle, he used it on Cell and didn't have to focus on a damn thing, and considering he IT's to king kai's like nothing these days and to other world, he wouldn't struggle ITing superman.  and otherworld is not a random place considering Goku has been there plenty of times.  he didn't have a problem ITing and doing the kamehameha, so get your facts straight.

and there is chi in the DC universe, no one uses it though.  everyone has inner energy = chi.  thats just something thats around.  i'm sorry if superman didn't learn fighting styles to that extent.

then look at the kais, they are like the Gods of DBZ and Goku is stronger than them, what the hell. 

oh yeah, now that u mention it, Frieza was a galactic threat.  but Cell and Buu were universal threats.


personal comment............

i've faced someone benching 500 and dropped him inside of two minutes in a boxing match.  benching doesn't increase the power of your punching as much as actually training.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 9, 2006)

> i've faced someone benching 500 and dropped him inside of two minutes in a boxing match. benching doesn't increase the power of your punching as much as actually training.


 
Still doesnt matter... Goku can't touch Superman. Superman would break his hand if he hit him. Even if Goku was on Supermans level he would tire out way faster as nothing he would do would actually really hurt Superman. Seriously. Goku can't win.


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## acritarch (Feb 9, 2006)

WTF!  Flash can't run circles around Supes unless he steals all his speed. How the hell is Goku going to do that???????


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 9, 2006)

braindx said:
			
		

> Atlast, please go read the manga. You will find that a bunch of what you saw in the anime/dub is filler. You can find it on the FTP based on the thread in my signature.
> 
> Immune to physical attacks? Come on we're talking about SAIYANS not DOOMSDAY!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



thanks for the compliment.


yeah thats why i'm thinking it was from point a to point b, instead of the winding road itself being 1,000,000 km.  but thats speculation though, u just know from the entrance to afterworld to King Kai's planet was 1,000,000km.  i wasn't really referring to Goku using kaioken in SSJ mode, i was actually talking bout regular goku using 20x kaioken cause it increases his strength and speed 20-fold.  SSJ is an even bigger boost in strength and speed.  and kaioken shouldn't be able to be used in SSJ cause i think you have to pure of heart to use that as well as the spirit bomb.  but i was actually saying that by the time the buu saga comes, superman would struggle with Goku by him just using kaioken 20x.

and for the Flash thing, its pretty a consistent notion that DC is inconsistent with what people do sometimes.  well comics period, i can't keep putting DC there by itself.  sometimes they are so busy trying to display a feat that they don't even think about the boundaries they placed on a character that they are gonna use the next issue after they did it.

For Tousen, sure buddy, whatever u say.  u just made no sense.  if goku was on superman's level he would hurt him, that was just a dumb comment that wasn't thought about.

and goku is above supes level anyway, so whatever.  goku won't really tire out fighting superman considering i doubt he'll need SSJ3 to beat superman, SSJ should be about as high as he need.  considering he did walk around in SSJ like it was his base form.


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Still doesnt matter... Goku can't touch Superman. Superman would break his hand if he hit him. Even if Goku was on Supermans level he would tire out way faster as nothing he would do would actually really hurt Superman. Seriously. Goku can't win.



Goku's most powerful attacks dont come from hand to hand combat with the opponent, its from energy ki blasts powerful enough to destroy planets, galaxies, solar systems etc. ANd I seriously doubt Goku would injure himself punching Supes. Far weaker people have hit supes and knocked him back without getting injured. How many blasts capable of destroying a solar system has Post Crisis Supes sustained? 
people stay talking about him surviving a ground zero explosion capable of destroying the sun like its the most incredible feat. DBZ characters go through incredible blasts like that all the time by the end of the series. People stay trying to find ways to downplay the dbz characters whether its in speed strength durability etc. all for the most bs reasons. Bringing up Supes vibrating between an attack. Did you all forget Goku phasing between Jeice and Burters attacks all the way back on planet namek during the freeza saga? Seriously, Post Crisis Supes Can't win.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 9, 2006)

> For Tousen, sure buddy, whatever u say. u just made no sense. if goku was on superman's level he would hurt him, that was just a dumb comment that wasn't thought about.
> 
> and goku is above supes level anyway, so whatever. goku won't really tire out fighting superman considering i doubt he'll need SSJ3 to beat superman, SSJ should be about as high as he need. considering he did walk around in SSJ like it was his base form.


 
No he wouldn't hurt him. Superman would just keep getting back up. Only if he was far above superman could he actually hope to even damage him. Not to mention he CAN'T touch Superman. 


Superman Grabs Goku and puts him in space and watches him die. Thats the end of the fight. Thats all there is to it.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 9, 2006)

um, Goku would just IT out of space, he can hold his breath so thats not a smart comment as well.

and if superman is faster than goku that would mean they are not on the same level and your basis of argument u started is just null and void.  u don't even know if he can touch superman or not.  as i've been in this thread, you have complained a lot but you really haven't came with any real reason why superman would win.  u just got mad more people were for goku, and the jist of all your comments can just be one sentence.  superman can beat goku, u're not really saying anything else in your comment.


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> No he wouldn't hurt him. Superman would just keep getting back up. Only if he was far above superman could he actually hope to even damage him. Not to mention he CAN'T touch Superman.
> 
> 
> Superman Grabs Goku and puts him in space and watches him die. Thats the end of the fight. Thats all there is to it.



wtf. If supes grabs onto goku he'll either knock him off via energy or use Shunkan Idou to teleport back to a signal on the planet. You act like Goku hasnt faced an opponent who can breath in space before. If youre going to bring up that BS of a way for superman to have a chance at winning I might as well say Goku blows up the sun, waits for supes energy to drain then kills him. But thats not even necessary for Goku to win. Besides Supes Cant lock onto ki so Goku could always send blasts flying his way at light speed from several directions, since youre bringing up cheap ass victory possibilities.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 9, 2006)

and superman flying goku into space gives goku enough time to IT him to otherworld for him where there is no sun.  so supes would be doing him a favor.  come with a better method please.


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## konflikti (Feb 9, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> u don't even know if he can touch superman or not.  as i've been in this thread, you have complained a lot but you really haven't came with any real reason why superman would win.  u just got mad more people were for goku, and the jist of all your comments can just be one sentence.  superman can beat goku, u're not really saying anything else in your comment.



Too bad you are doing just the same, so you don't have much right to complain. None of your reasons for victory has a thing to do with Goku's canon feats or anything that you could actually prove right. Every single point that leads you to believe that Goku would win is speculation or theory.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> How many blasts capable of destroying a solar system has Post Crisis Supes sustained?


How many has Goku shot?



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> people stay talking about him surviving a ground zero explosion capable of destroying the sun like its the most incredible feat. DBZ characters go through incredible blasts like that all the time by the end of the series. People stay trying to find ways to downplay the dbz characters whether its in speed strength durability etc. all for the most bs reasons.


I haven't seen ki blast that destroyed Sun so far. No-one really tries to downplay DBZ characters, we just try to bring the fan-boys down from the clouds. 

Premise is this: Goku gets damaged from punches from other DBZ people, right? Is there any hitter in DBZ capable of the damage that single Supes punch can do? I do not think so. Thus, when Supermans hit connects, Goku is going to be in a world of hurt. Keeping in mind the speed Superman fights when not holding back, the world of hurt is the last thing Goku is going to experience. The DBZ cast can launch a flurry of blows to each other, why do you think Superman couldn't do the same to DBZ people? The difference is, Superman's punches are way more powerful. You block it, you lose an arm.


----------



## acritarch (Feb 9, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Goku's most powerful attacks dont come from hand to hand combat with the opponent, its from energy ki blasts powerful enough to destroy planets, galaxies, solar systems etc.



Wait a second... destroy solar systems and galaxies? LMAO. Cell definitely said that; however, a case can be made against it. A very convincing case at that -- all of the Kamehameha blasts, Vegeta's suicide explosion using all his energy (after the Cell saga no less), and a majority of other of the strongest attacks of characters don't even do major damage to the EARTH. The only way the Saiyans and other characters are blowing up planets are if they specifically shoot at the planets' core which takes EXPONENTIALLY less energy than litereally blowing it up from the outside in (which someone already stated). 

In fact here is a good article on destroying the earth (how hard it is ), Naruto Fight . Check out #3.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> people stay talking about him surviving a ground zero explosion capable of destroying the sun like its the most incredible feat. DBZ characters go through incredible blasts like that all the time by the end of the series. People stay trying to find ways to downplay the dbz characters whether its in speed strength durability etc. all for the most bs reasons. Bringing up Supes vibrating between an attack. Did you all forget Goku phasing between Jeice and Burters attacks all the way back on planet namek during the freeza saga? Seriously, Post Crisis Supes Can't win.



Downplay DBZ characters? Not quite. Feats and facts have been posted on Superman. If you can do that for Goku to show that he actually CAN match up, then we will be talking! Other than that, from what it seems in the manga, he is not at all close to the light speed (much slower than Supes) and is not as strong or durable as Supes is feat and fact wise. The only chance he might have is energy blasts, which, from the look of things and Supes speed, Supes can dodge them very easily. IT doesn't do anything when you are significantly slower than your opponent. Supes will literally punch a hole in any DBZ character.


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## TheHolyDarkness (Feb 9, 2006)

*Goku vs. Superman? VEGETTO/GOGETA vs. Superman would be more like it.*

When we're comparing anything the DBZ universe has got to _the _SUPERMAN...

I'm sorry but only a fusion character could possibly by any stretch of the imagination hope to stand against the Man of Steel.  Simply by himself, even at SSJ3, *Goku could never come out on top in a fight against Superman.  *

Now I like Goku and I'll give him his props:  He just might not get killed right out from one punch, which would be amazing enough feat as is. The Super Saiya-jin might even be able to hold up a resistance for a few minutes. Heck, he might even give Supes a good stretching workout.  But at any rate, its going to be a downhill battle.  Goku will be lucky enough as is to survive against the Man of Steel, let alone defeat him. 

I love DBZ, but I gotta admit, Goku's is definatly going to _*need *_some miracle aid in the form of a fusion technique with Vegeta for this one.  It's the only way I see the DBZ universe having any hope of defeating the kryptonian without resorting to kryptonite. 

And even then I wouldn't be suprised if it turned out to be one hell of a battle, though at least it would make the title bout of the century.


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## mUcHo LoCo (Feb 9, 2006)

goku would strap bars of kryptonite on a belt then kamehameha when superman cant get near, GOKU>>>SUPERMAN


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> How many has Goku shot?


Goku's aim isnt to destroy solar systems so youre not going to see any images of him doing so. Cell who wasnt exactly notorious for bluffing claimed to be capable of this, and Goku's far stronger than him by the end of the series. If a blast Kid Buu builds and fires with ease destroys the earth like nothing I think Cell's statement  wasnt too unreasonable.



> I haven't seen ki blast that destroyed Sun so far. No-one really tries to downplay DBZ characters, we just try to bring the fan-boys down from the clouds.
> 
> Premise is this: Goku gets damaged from punches from other DBZ people, right? Is there any hitter in DBZ capable of the damage that single Supes punch can do? I do not think so. Thus, when Supermans hit connects, Goku is going to be in a world of hurt. Keeping in mind the speed Superman fights when not holding back, the world of hurt is the last thing Goku is going to experience. The DBZ cast can launch a flurry of blows to each other, why do you think Superman couldn't do the same to DBZ people? The difference is, Superman's punches are way more powerful. You block it, you lose an arm.



Maybe not you in particular but I definately call negelecting facts downplaying, such as saying Gotenks went around the world in half an hour at top speed, when actually he wasnt maxed out, wasnt trying very hard, took a nap, went about twice the radius out from the earth and wround 5 times. And what are you basing how much damage a dbz character's punch can do off of? Most of the time their seriously hitting something its eachother in the air. Superman's comic fight with Wonderwoman didnt look to far off from an early dbz battle, and you can see both parties grimacing in pain without but so much damage being done to the surrounding area.

The biggest statement of Supes punching power we've heard is him saying his punch could split a moon. We havent heard any similar statements made by dbz characters but thats no proof that they can or can't either way. Cell's flick easily sent a strong man flying an arc a kilometer long, without him trying. The truth is we really have no idea how much damage a punch from an SSJ3 could do to the surrounding area if aimed at the ground or something. We only know supes because his comics been around long enough for him to make a statement like that. I mean can you really tell something like tha from the fight where he died to doomsday? And if all the dragonball fights are like that its not like we can really tell punching power one way or another with them either.


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## acritarch (Feb 9, 2006)

mUcHo LoCo said:
			
		

> goku would strap bars of kryptonite on a belt then kamehameha when superman cant get near, GOKU>>>SUPERMAN



If Goku starts out the fight with Kryptonite, then Superman starts out the fight with nerve gas or some other instant killing device. Seriously. Why do people always say that the opponent starts out with someone's weakness? ESPECIALLY in Supes vs. threads. WTF???????

Only if you're able to transmute elements AND have cosmic awareness like silver surfer or something can you do that kind of stuff.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 9, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Too bad you are doing just the same, so you don't have much right to complain. None of your reasons for victory has a thing to do with Goku's canon feats or anything that you could actually prove right. Every single point that leads you to believe that Goku would win is speculation or theory.



actually i was proving that speed is not gonna play a factor in this fight because there is no big difference in speed between them.  as i have said this whole time, goku would beat superman off of skill level.  goku being a skilled martial artists is fact and that includes all his techniques.  and is not speculation to calculate using kilometers and days and years, considering they were given in the manga.  so no, thats not speculation.  i basically calculated Goku's saiyan saga speed, and the way i got to it was factual information.  and if you're saying that the leap between saiyan saga and end of buu wasn't a QUANTUM leap then you're just saying that for sake of argument.

and about planet and solar-system destroying attacks, why would goku destroy his friends and family and possibly the dragonballs to beat one person.  thats why u don't see him blowing them up, its called common sense.  vegeta will not do a planet destroying attack to kill his wife and child.  they know how to use they're powers, its called skill.  the factor that wins the fight.

*Premise is this: Goku gets damaged from punches from other DBZ people, right? Is there any hitter in DBZ capable of the damage that single Supes punch can do? I do not think so. Thus, when Supermans hit connects, Goku is going to be in a world of hurt. Keeping in mind the speed Superman fights when not holding back, the world of hurt is the last thing Goku is going to experience. The DBZ cast can launch a flurry of blows to each other, why do you think Superman couldn't do the same to DBZ people? The difference is, Superman's punches are way more powerful. You block it, you lose an arm.*

the punches are hurting goku probably becasue along with goku being better than superman, the people he's fighting that are stronger than him are better than superman.  i'll see if you brought up a DC villain doing it, but u brought up a DBZ character.  i got Chou Gohan over supes, Majin Vegeta over supes (if supes doesn't tell him about powering up in the sun), Super Buu, Kid Buu, and Cell over supes.  

*Downplay DBZ characters? Not quite. Feats and facts have been posted on Superman. If you can do that for Goku to show that he actually CAN match up, then we will be talking! Other than that, from what it seems in the manga, he is not at all close to the light speed (much slower than Supes) and is not as strong or durable as Supes is feat and fact wise. The only chance he might have is energy blasts, which, from the look of things and Supes speed, Supes can dodge them very easily. IT doesn't do anything when you are significantly slower than your opponent. Supes will literally punch a hole in any DBZ character.*

well lets see he traveled several trips around the earth's circumference in a day back in saiyan saga.  he went through gravity training, Hyperbolic Time training, otherworld training to reach SSJ3, hmmmmmmmm i would say he got pretty fast by then.  unlike yall, everybody doesn't need a number in a manga to figure out something, just think for once.  

all i've seen is refusals to except DBZ speeds that i have come to based on factual information from Daizenshyui 7.  and u think the word speculation will get you by in this argument.  

u say goku can't hurt superman but u're quick to say superman can hurt goku.  how the hell u come up with it.  i showed how i came up with the speed.  i based the fact that goku has fought off planet destroying attacks (Vegita's Galick Gun).  he has beaten universal threats, but superman can supposedly beat him so easy.  i seriously doubt that.  you refer to all the goku supporters as goku fanboys, where its yall who look like the fanboys by trying to call everything that isn't speculation, speculation just to disapprove it.  

Goku at SSJ2 is walking around with electricity flowing around his body, and every hit he makes is packed full of chi along with his physical force.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 9, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> he did it in one day, king kai PREDICTED it would take two days.



Yes, King Kai predicted it would take two days and there is nothing stated in the manga to suggest he did it in any less. Where did you get that it was only a day?



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> you refer to how long he trained, one day in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber = 1 year so whats you point and that was at 150x gravity.



No, the one day thing I was refering to was him training at 100x grav on the way to Namak. If you read how its worked out hes up to 50x 4 days into the trip and then goes up to 100x and then he says he needs 1 day to rest and get used to normal gravity so he turns off the machine.

Also, I remember the Hyperbolic Time Chamber being only being 10x earth's gravity not 150x. 



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> all i have to say is by the time goku makes it to the buu saga or the fight with frieza, he is running circles around superman.



I highly doubt it, nothing indicates Goku is faster then light.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> also if you look at the buu saga, babidi said it takes 300kilos to destroy a planet and goku had 3000 KILOS at just SSJ, so thats a statement of how powerful this guy is.   and that was manga buddy.



The 3,000 kilos part is from the manga but the 300 kilos to blow up a planet is from the anime. The anime highly exagerates things, especially when it comes to planet destroying.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> goku can use IT in battle, he used it on Cell and didn't have to focus on a damn thing



Yes he did, he had to focus on Cell's KI. Goku can IT to King Kai because he is familiar with his Ki. Thats the same way he was able to IT to Gohan when he was training with Supreme Kai.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and there is chi in the DC universe, no one uses it though.  everyone has inner energy = chi.  thats just something thats around.  i'm sorry if superman didn't learn fighting styles to that extent.



Ya, but inner energy is not the same as it is in DBZ as it is everywhere else. In Naruto inner energy is chakra. In YYH its spiritual energy. In HxH its nen. These all work differently. You can say Naruto is weak because he can use kamahameha, different universe different rules.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> then look at the kais, they are like the Gods of DBZ and Goku is stronger than them, what the hell.



Superman beats up Gods all the time *cough*Darkseid*cough* He has also beat some greek gods, norse gods, and some new gods like Orion and Light Ray.


----------



## Atlast (Feb 9, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:
			
		

> How about you stop with the bullshit already? Saiyans aren't immune to physical damage nor has there been any evidence to the contrary. Goku(as well as Vegeta and Trunks) was getting his ass handed to him by friggin CELL JRS, so tell me how the hell that shows he's immune to physical attacks.



No!You're the one who should stop your bullshit already.Again,the Saiyan can be immuned after they encountered dangerous opponent or technique.

Okay.to tell you the truth.if you remember the fight between li shenlong vs. ssj4 Goku,li shenlong planned to used all the 6 evil dragon that he swallow against goku,RIGHT!including su shenlong's fire ki,and san shenlong's ice ki! in that case,you notice that NONE of them works again! meaning Goku's body as he stated that*,"Once a technique are used against him,can't be used again!"*You see that goku is immuned with those Lightning,fire,ice...ETC.after those event(or maybe before)

And what i know about superman,here it is:



> Superman possesses extraordinary powers which render him faster than a speeding *bullet*, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Superman's famous arsenal of powers include flight, vast super strength and invulnerability, super speed, vision powers (including x-ray, heat, telescopic, infra-red, and microscopic vision), super photographic memory, super hearing and super breath, which enables him to freeze objects by blowing on them.



YOU SEE...NONE! NONE of those stated that superman would become immuned or strong after a WORST defeat or fight WITHOUT TRAINING!

So it remains that Superman will loss horribly after this rematch,Live it!


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## unknowndanex (Feb 9, 2006)

*No, the one day thing I was refering to was him training at 100x grav on the way to Namak. If you read how its worked out hes up to 50x 4 days into the trip and then goes up to 100x and then he says he needs 1 day to rest and get used to normal gravity so he turns off the machine.

Also, I remember the Hyperbolic Time Chamber being only being 10x earth's gravity not 150x.
*

the Daizenshyu states differently. its 150x

*I highly doubt it, nothing indicates Goku is faster then light.*

what is goku doing during the Buu saga.  oh yeah fighting someone else who is most likely light speed okay.  what is toriyama doing, oh yeah allowing us to see him cause whats the point of spending money on a manga full of stuff we can't see.

Yes, King Kai predicted it would take two days and there is nothing stated in the manga to suggest he did it in any less. Where did you get that it was only a day?

after King Kai predicted, and Goku then said he could get there quicker when he jumped the snake way instead of going the full winding road.  he said the time should be cut in half.  Vegeta and Nappa showed up before Goku left, and i don't think it was a whole day between Nappan and the saibamen fighting the Z-fighters and goku's return to earth.

*
Yes he did, he had to focus on Cell's KI. Goku can IT to King Kai because he is familiar with his Ki. Thats the same way he was able to IT to Gohan when he was training with Supreme Kai.*

did it look like he was focusing his chi that much, cause it appears to me like he was focusing on the kamehameha and when cell was gonna attack.  and if he was focusing on cell, that just shows how quickly and easily he can focus in on a person.

and in case u didn't know, Toriyama served as creative consultant, he created gregory and everything for the anime.  so stop trying to say every single thing is filler considering this is apart of Toriyama's vision.

and lets not go back to referring to superman beating up depowered people like darkseid who i don't hold over goku either.  these gods in DBZ have control over galaxies, not certain things and certain planets.



ATLAST:  saiyans do not get immune after battle.  they get stronger and faster.  if goku was beaten by frieza in the saiyan saga he would have lost to frieza again if they fought right after goku had a senzu bean.


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## konflikti (Feb 9, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> actually i was proving that speed is not gonna play a factor in this fight because there is no big difference in speed between them.  as i have said this whole time, goku would beat superman off of skill level.  goku being a skilled martial artists is fact and that includes all his techniques.  and is not speculation to calculate using kilometers and days and years, considering they were given in the manga.  so no, thats not speculation.  i basically calculated Goku's saiyan saga speed, and the way i got to it was factual information.  and if you're saying that the leap between saiyan saga and end of buu wasn't a QUANTUM leap then you're just saying that for sake of argument.



Actually, you still haven't proved a thing. Calculation based on uncertain factors is still only speculation and theory. You always seem to say that DBZ isn't about feats or numbers and thus we cannot say that Superman is faster or stronger than Goku. Then, you say that Goku is faster and stronger than Superman. Do you see the fatal flaw in here? This is why I label you as a fanboy. You only try to diminish our abilities to bring up points, while bringing up your own statements that hold nothing.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> the punches are hurting goku probably becasue along with goku being better than superman, the people he's fighting that are stronger than him are better than superman.  i'll see if you brought up a DC villain doing it, but u brought up a DBZ character.  i got Chou Gohan over supes, Majin Vegeta over supes (if supes doesn't tell him about powering up in the sun), Super Buu, Kid Buu, and Cell over supes.



You can have whoever you want over Supes, I don't care. Guess why? Because all your arguments for them are based on speculation and random theories that happen to please you. You still haven't provided a canon fact that shows that Goku is anywhere near Supes speed or strenght.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well lets see he traveled several trips around the earth's circumference in a day back in saiyan saga.  he went through gravity training, Hyperbolic Time training, otherworld training to reach SSJ3, hmmmmmmmm i would say he got pretty fast by then.  unlike yall, everybody doesn't need a number in a manga to figure out something, just think for once.



Yes, pretty fast. That doesn't equal near light-speed. Unlike you, everyone doesn't agree that you can make your own numbers for character if they weren't clearly stated.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> all i've seen is refusals to except DBZ speeds that i have come to based on factual information from Daizenshyui 7.  and u think the word speculation will get you by in this argument.



Refusals because we don't judge based what you came up with, but with the things provided in the comic or the manga. 



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> u say goku can't hurt superman but u're quick to say superman can hurt goku.  how the hell u come up with it.  i showed how i came up with the speed.  i based the fact that goku has fought off planet destroying attacks (Vegita's Galick Gun).  he has beaten universal threats, but superman can supposedly beat him so easy.  i seriously doubt that.  you refer to all the goku supporters as goku fanboys, where its yall who look like the fanboys by trying to call everything that isn't speculation, speculation just to disapprove it.
> 
> Goku at SSJ2 is walking around with electricity flowing around his body, and every hit he makes is packed full of chi along with his physical force.



Every planetary threat he has fought of was ki, right? No-one ever threated to punch the planet apart, am I right? While Goku excels in ki, it was never shown that he could compete in physical fight with someone of the level of Superman.

In case you didn't know, speculation isn't lies or anything by definition. But if you want yourself to be taken seriously, you need to be ready to prove your speculation true. Which you are incapable in most occasions it seems.

Superman at base is a planet destroying bastard with only his physical power. He doesn't need fireworks to tell you that.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 9, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> the Daizenshyu states differently. its 150x



The manga stated 10x
Link removed



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> what is goku doing during the Buu saga.  oh yeah fighting someone else who is most likely light speed okay.



speculation...



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> after King Kai predicted, and Goku then said he could get there quicker when he jumped the snake way instead of going the full winding road.  he said the time should be cut in half.



No, the only things Goku says between when he leaves King Kai's and when he gets to the beggining of snake way is "Woohoo!! I feel so light!! I'm like a living cotton ball!!!."..."Well, no time to play around. Ive got to go!!!"..."Hold on--I'm coming!!"..."Blast it!!! It's taking too long!!! Gotta go!!!"..."I see it!! The end of the road!!!"

Plus it distinctly says in the manga between when Goku leaves king kai's and when the saiyans arrive, "The next day it happened" or something like that.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> did it look like he was focusing his chi that much, cause it appears to me like he was focusing on the kamehameha and when cell was gonna attack.  and if he was focusing on cell, that just shows how quickly and easily he can focus in on a person.



The Kamehameha was a distraction, he could easily have focused on Cell's KI in the time he was powering up. Goku specifically says he has to concentrate on Ki to use IT



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and in case u didn't know, Toriyama served as creative consultant, he created gregory and everything for the anime.  so stop trying to say every single thing is filler considering this is apart of Toriyama's vision.



No, I wont stop saying it because its true. Anime filler is NOT canon. Vegeta never blew up a planet as a kid, Piccolo never picked up a pyramid with his mind, Bebi never stated anything about blowing up planets at a certain power level, Cell was never stated to be able to blow up the solar system, Goku never fell of snake way, etc... If you really want to include anime as canon then I can bring up the Gotenks flying around the world thing, but I wont because its not canon.

Manga = canon, thats just a general rule that has always been held in the battle dome.


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## Atlast (Feb 9, 2006)

> ATLAST: saiyans do not get immune after battle. they get stronger and faster. if goku was beaten by frieza in the saiyan saga he would have lost to frieza again if they fought right after goku had a senzu bean.


Perhaps.you're right.but in Goku's case against freeza,freeza is too high to reach.thats why even kaiohken doesn't work. as what geniue stated in his fight with Goku,his power was only 150,000 while freeza's attack power from the start was 530,000.times 2 after he transform(1 million),maybe times 2 again(1.5million)after he transform and lastly times 2 again after the final stage(2 million).

So in that case,You're right freeza would remain strong after that.Unlike sara vs. vegeta and Tambourine vs.Young Goku(King piccolo saga)which,Both saiyans loss horribly and then Successfully revenge their rematch!


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

braindx said:
			
		

> Wait a second... destroy solar systems and galaxies? LMAO. Cell definitely said that; however, a case can be made against it. A very convincing case at that -- all of the Kamehameha blasts, Vegeta's suicide explosion using all his energy (after the Cell saga no less), and a majority of other of the strongest attacks of characters don't even do major damage to the EARTH. The only way the Saiyans and other characters are blowing up planets are if they specifically shoot at the planets' core which takes EXPONENTIALLY less energy than litereally blowing it up from the outside in (which someone already stated).
> 
> In fact here is a good article on destroying the earth (how hard it is ), Battle . Check out #3.



That article more or less builds up my case. Its not like any stray blast that reaches the earths core will cause it to blow up, there needs to be a certain amount of power behind it, and if freeza is easily capable of firing a blast capable of slicing through several thousand miles of extremely dense earth, at a rather large radius, and the blast still has enough power to destruct the core of the planet that blast is pretty damn powerful. It's not like Goku's stray kamehameha against Buu didnt destroy a 10th of the earth anyway (and as far as galaxies I didnt mean with a single blast but rather a multitude sent out by a character without rest.). And stray blasts have been shown to cause explosions off in the distance before, while its possible they just happened to hit the core of the planet, star or whatever it was it's not proven. 

Not to mention the rate at which they fire these blasts and the sheer multitude. Super Buu fired billions of blast with ease for his human genocide attack, it doesnt seem unlikely that the SSJ 3s could do likewise, and probably far more powerful blasts if they put some effort into it. I dont see supes dodging all that. and what makes his phasing so much more special than say what Goku was doing to Burter and Jeice back during the Freeza saga?

Besides even if he did try to phase through all of them, the Z senshuu have shown the ability to control the directons of their beams for a while now,  they could make it follow him, or stay in place if thats where he's phasing. Its not like he's been shown to be capable of vibrating endlessly.


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## Rice Ball (Feb 9, 2006)

please let this die and let the ignorent remain so if they wish to be.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 9, 2006)

braindx said:
			
		

> Immune to physical attacks? Come on we're talking about SAIYANS not DOOMSDAY!!!!!!!!!!


I've been wondering that for a while now, I was going to bring it up, but realized that Supes beats Doomsday so what's the point 




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> 've faced someone benching 500 and dropped him inside of two minutes in a boxing match. benching doesn't increase the power of your punching as much as actually training.


Was he also capible of taking your best punch and not even moving his head?  And able to move twice as fast as you?


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## Anei (Feb 9, 2006)

Goku would win. Superman's a pansy xD


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

> Was he also capible of taking your best punch and not even moving his head?  And able to move twice as fast as you?



Where are you getting this twice as fast thing from? In combat the Dragonball fighters have always been shown to move much faster than when travelling linearly whether it be sidesteps, basic dodging, attacking etc. 



			
				Rice Ball said:
			
		

> please let this die and let the ignorent remain so if they wish to be.



I know you want this to end but even if it does here it will simply start up again later, so Id say the time for the best arguments to be presented is now, rather than later on by some noob who posts sites using dragonball GT as 1 source and thinking superman is capable of all the bullshit he was doing pre-crisis Ill tell you when I first started posting in the battledomes there were threads where sites would be linked to as references for Supermans power that included mainly precrisis feats so bogus everyone was saying Supes was some sort of unbeatable god, not realizing that all that was before DC decided to bring some reason to their ill-defined character, and that he's been beaten in his own series. Then theres alot of people here that think anyone who makes a pro-db point is some ignorant noob that knows nothing of comics and grew up thinking DB was made by Funimation or something. I watched and read DB since before it blew up in america. UnknowndaneX seems to be very familiar with the comics for DB, Marvel, as well as the DB manga. 

We're not DC haters, batmans one of my favorite heroes and Ive enjoyed watching several Superman series from the old b&w one to the new Smallville. 
But some DC fanboys overly biased posts containing overating of characters past their intended point, gross neglection of facts when talking about the opposing side, hypocritical points, and convictions that they are right about all details even when people on theyre own side of the argument know theyre dead wrong about points, such that a biased post from Bullet could lead someone less familiar with the comics to beleiving Hulk Thor and just about anyone else from outside of DC doesnt stand a chance against the likes of wonderwoman, has led me to be somewhat less supportive of DC and more apt to dig up information for myself to come to my own conclusions. I'm sure the comic writers themselves wouldnt overate DC characters to the point some posters here do. When it comes to listing feats often an amalgm of the greatest things the character has ever done  based on what several writers have said for them is posted. But these arent things those characters do on the regular . People feel the need to always come in and talk down to someone who supports DB especially since there are so many who come to the boards with knowledge of DBZ and little else due to its popularity in America.

Then you get all the people that feel like theyre supporters of the underground and little known facts feeling that they should be ferverously anti-db. But the truth is if DB werent an American fad rather than people digging for every thing Supermans ever done you'd get the underground people popping up and saying, "Supes cant beat these guys, they blow up F'ing planets like its nothing, theyve been moving so fast in combat theyre no longer visible to the human eye for a while now. The majority of their opponents have had the ability to fly and breath in space before and theye still managed to win. They shoot tons of controlled directional ki blasts in an instant, and if Supes loses sight of them they can always sense where he is. Long ago one of them was able to phase through attacks and theyve become far faster and more powerful since then." But instead youve got people looking up anything to give Supes a fighting chance "he's physically stronger than Goku, he moved a moon even though we have no idea the force required to move something in outer space from its planetary orbit or how strong the pull from the star system was, but DB didnt go on long enough for them to have any strength fea showing what SSJ3 is capable of so by default Superman wins! we'll just forget that the DB cast is capable of shooting blasts that reach the moon in a second and are at least light speed, or that thats their main form of attack, or that their attacking bodies in SSJ2 are surrounded by Electric ki, which would almost definately up their attacking power to something uncomparable to physical strength, or that they dodge and move much faster in close combat, or that there is evidence of Supes surpassing them in speed. We'll just focus on the two areas where there is evidence in Supermans favor of him being better, the speed at which he travels (ignoring the speed at which he fights), and his physical pulling/pushing strength." If thats not ignorant bliss and gross denial/ negation of points, I dont know what is.


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## Gunners (Feb 9, 2006)

Seriously, dudes, cut the size of the post a little, it is tedious to read.

Gokou imo would win, if he can grap superman and teleport his ass to some other planet, maybe pluto, so he is far from the sun, the more sups fights the weaker he would get.

Or he could just shoot him in the face with a kamehame ha.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 9, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Seriously, dudes, cut the size of the post a little, it is tedious to read.
> 
> Gokou imo would win, if he can grap superman and teleport his ass to some other planet, maybe pluto, so he is far from the sun, the more sups fights the weaker he would get.
> 
> Or he could just shoot him in the face with a kamehame ha.



Superman flys through space and fights there all to often. His body is a solar battery, he can keep going even without the Sun, its just that he would weaken over time, but it would take a good while. Superman even stated he was capable of intersteller travel meaning he would be flying light years away from a sun still going at top speed.

Plus Goku cant just IT to a random stop in space, he has to have a KI signature to lock on to IIRC.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 9, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Superman flys through space and fights there all to often. His body is a solar battery, he can keep going even without the Sun, its just that he would weaken over time, but it would take a good while. Superman even stated he was capable of intersteller travel meaning he would be flying light years away from a sun still going at top speed.
> 
> Plus Goku cant just IT to a random stop in space, he has to have a KI signature to lock on to IIRC.



first of all, i couldn't have said it better myself DrunkenYoshimaster.  (actually i probably could've )

i know goku could just notice kaiobit, king yemma, king kai, or someone else's chi, and IT superman to otherworld.  wait a minute, so u say if superman is on pluto he wouldn't lose his power, he would just weaken a bit faster.  yet when i bring up mongul whuppin his ass i get, he was too far away from the sun.  mongul kicked his ass from beginning to the end.  

but goku doesn't need to IT him anywhere except to Karin after the fight so he can give supes a senzu bean (he is a nice guy after all) considering he'll win on earth anyway.


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Seriously, dudes, cut the size of the post a little, it is tedious to read.



Eh my bad gunners, I just wanted to explain a justification of continuing to debate the issue and why Im for db in this argument in the first place to rice ball. I guess I went a little overboard, but I was sick with little else to do and out of it do to medicine. In the future Ill avoid making em so long.


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## Bullet (Feb 9, 2006)

> i know goku could just notice kaiobit, king yemma, king kai, or someone else's chi, and IT superman to otherworld.wait a minute, so u say if superman is on pluto he wouldn't lose his power, he would just weaken a bit faster. yet when i bring up mongul whuppin his ass i get, he was too far away from the sun. mongul kicked his ass from beginning to the end.



First when was the last time Mongul beat Superman (going all out too)? And Superman can be away form the sun, he has alot of solar energy stored inside his body over the year's that whould last him for weeks. 



> but goku doesn't need to IT him anywhere except to Karin after the fight so he can give supes a senzu bean (he is a nice guy after all) considering he'll win on earth anyway.



Superman will have the senzu bean for Goku when he wakes up from a coma!

Superman wins this, he's physically more powerful than Goku in any form.


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## Gunners (Feb 9, 2006)

> Superman will have the senzu bean for Goku when he wakes up from a coma!
> 
> Superman wins this, he's physically more powerful than Goku in any form.
> __________________



No he isnt physically more powerful, i noticed with DC, they love to throw some facts and shit in.

Dbz wasnt like that, i dont think akira toriami thought about scales he was using, so im saying gokou moves at the speed of light based on what akira would have wanted it to be.

I think he would be able to kill him with a kamehameha wave, done.


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## Tousenz (Feb 9, 2006)

> Dbz wasnt like that, i dont think akira toriami thought about scales he was using, so im saying gokou moves at the speed of light based on what akira would have wanted it to be.


 
But we have facts... Facts like Gotenks taking so long to move around the world.

Facts like them Taking forever to fly places.... Facts like them having to use IT for movement instead of just going faster than light.


Definition of Intstant transmission:It allows Goku and anyone that is in contact with him to travel great distances (from metres to thousands of kilometres; i.e. off planet) instantly in the *form of light* just by concentrating on a particular individuals energy signature and 'transmitting' to that beings location. This action is usually accompanied by Goku placing his index and middle fingers on his forehead to help him concentrate.



> The  (Supreme Kai) also knows a variation of the technique, but does not require an energy signature to home in on. He retains this knowledge after becoming


 
Theres no way Goku moves the speed of light. Hes pretty fast for anime standards but not Superman fast.


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## konflikti (Feb 9, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> No he isnt physically more powerful, i noticed with DC, they love to throw some facts and shit in.


Nice way to play yourself completely out of the discussion. "Facts and shit"


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## Gunners (Feb 9, 2006)

> But we have facts... Facts like Gotenks taking so long to move around the world.
> 
> Facts like them Taking forever to fly places.... Facts like them having to use IT for movement instead of just going faster than light.
> 
> ...



Like i said, that part was to show him moving super fast, he never intended his calculations to be wrong, not many people know how fast light travells, second, how much bigger is the dbz world than supermans?

Instant tramsmition is better for planet to planet travelling, moving at the speed of light could take seconds or minutes depending on the distance, IT distance doesnt matter, it is instant.




> Nice way to play yourself completely out of the discussion. "Facts and shit"



What?


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## Tousenz (Feb 9, 2006)

> What?


 
Lol you dont get it. Your dismissing facts in the battledome.


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## Bullet (Feb 9, 2006)

> gunners said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> > Superman is physically more powerful, he's feats prove that.
> 
> 
> He has more feats as he has an immensely greater amount of chapters for you to choose from.
> ...


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## Tousenz (Feb 9, 2006)

> You should also know that DB characters easily dodge things moving at light speed,


 
What ...please point this out.



> don't have to see their opponents to know where they are, and move much much faster in close combat with huge reaction times, than they do when traversing the land. Id also say their hand speed his almost definately higher. Goku moved his arms so fast it appeared like he had six all the way back in the 22nd bodukai



Thats still nothing.... compared to the speed of light. Its just the speed of the brain registering the images it sees.



> Goku could easily dodge Supes blast not to mention it's power isnt comparable to a blast capable of wiping out a solar system. Get real.


 
Theres never been a canon blast that could wipe out the solar system short of buu threatening existence...


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 9, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Like i said, that part was to show him moving super fast, he never intended his calculations to be wrong, not many people know how fast light travells, second, how much bigger is the dbz world than supermans?


Um, DBZ takes place on Earth yes?  Except when it's explicitly stated they're on another planet.  So, I would assume it's the same size as the Earth that Superman lives on, and the Earth that you live on.  Otherwise it wouldn't really be Earth.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Dbz wasnt like that, i dont think akira toriami thought about scales he was using, so im saying gokou moves at the speed of light based on what akira would have wanted it to be.



Well, gosh, in that case, Superman's writers pretty clearly want him to be invincible, so Goku won't be able to hurt him.

Or maybe we could use "facts and shit" instead.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 9, 2006)

*But we have facts... Facts like Gotenks taking so long to move around the world.

Facts like them Taking forever to fly places.... Facts like them having to use IT for movement instead of just going faster than light.


Definition of Intstant transmission:It allows Goku and anyone that is in contact with him to travel great distances (from metres to thousands of kilometres; i.e. off planet) instantly in the form of light just by concentrating on a particular individuals energy signature and 'transmitting' to that beings location. This action is usually accompanied by Goku placing his index and middle fingers on his forehead to help him concentrate.*

you shouldn't go to a website to get information unless its directly from the anime (except Garlic Jr. Saga), manga, or the diazenshyu considering Goku did IT on cell while he was doing the kamehameha.
*
Theres no way Goku moves the speed of light. Hes pretty fast for anime standards but not Superman fast.*

you have no reason behind saying that except for the fact Toriyama didn't throw a number in there.  but if you take the basis i gave you before the king kai training, it is more conceivable that he does move at the speed of light, especially by the Buu saga.
*
They do show feats of the DBZ characters, they just don't compare to Superman's. And none of the DBZ characters are the speed of light, you should know this if you read the manga.*

how would someone know this by reading the manga.  did you see a caption saying we don't move at the speed of light, no.  but if you read the manga and actually look at the manga to know about the characters, you would come to the conclusion theyare moving at least the speed of light.  and all their fights could be speed of light feats considering they all fight super fast.


What Gunner was saying is that Akira Toriyama doesn't go around taking time out of his story telling to put in numbers every now and then.  And the fact that all yall do is talk about numbers doesn't help the argument much.  Toriyama wanted to have a great story with great fighting, the fighting was better than anything DC ever put out.  I would rather see a great fight, than to see the writer take time out his busy schedule to go look up numbers and try to input a number just to make a feat.

*What does it matter, Superman was actually shown to be able to move at light speed, Goku wasn't without IT. 
*

why, because there wasn't a caption saying its light speed.  maybe toriyama figured he wouldn't need a caption and that people could figure it out for themselves.  if he did, he was dead wrong from what i can see.

i'm saying goku wins based off of everything i've seen in the manga and anime compared to superman's comics.  goku's feats are to me, much better.  i am more impressed with his fights against Frieza, Vegeta, Cell, and Buu, than i will ever be with superman pushing a moon or pulling war world.  

and in Buu's history he was going from planet to planet destroying them, he took out a nice chunk of the universe.  but he doesn't move at light speed?  come on now

*off topic now

look at the Sentry comics.  these early comics are much better than superman because they are not all about feats, its about deeper things.  mental illness, his marital problems, finding out who he is, etc etc.  and are u gonna say superman is faster than the sentry just because the comic didn't say so.  cause there is no caption saying he is going the speed of light.


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> What ...please point this out.



Lol didnt you just ask me the same thing in the Powers directory thread, about goku not being far below gotenks. Since I dont feel like digging up an ancient post of mine for the second time to day Ill just explain it. Roshi's blast in the 21st bodukai that blew up the moon clearly reached it and did so in a second or less.  The distance from the earth to the moon is so great that the blast was calculated to be light speed or above by those here. DB characters dodge blasts like that all the time. After that you could go in denial like bullet and say even those theres images of their blasts causing explosions in the distance a panel after being shot from earth or the like, theres no specific scan of wording that provides proof of light speed, but I think to most it should be fairly apparent how fast these blasts are capable of moving and how fast DB characters are able to dodge.



> Thats still nothing.... compared to the speed of light. Its just the speed of the brain registering the images it sees.


perhaps, but it still shows a great deal of arm movement speed and control to know how fast human eye fps are. And GOku kept this up for a long amount of time. he was still a freaking kid then. As an Adult he's easily a million times as powerful if not more, and far faster too.



> Theres never been a canon blast that could wipe out the solar system short of buu threatening existence...



Cell threatened to blow up the Solar System. Theres no absolute irrefutable definitive proof of any blast being powerful enough to do so, but I dont see how people can buy Superman's statement of being able to split the moon in half with a punch, and not beleive Cell's statement, pretending not to be biased. None of the Characters in DB seemed to think he was bluffing either, yet with Superman's deal he was in anger in front of a peon and very likely overexxagerating.


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## Tousenz (Feb 9, 2006)

> Cell threatened to blow up the Solar System.


 
With an explosion not a blast. Its a difference...



> As an Adult he's easily a million times as powerful if not more, and far faster too.


 
He might have more ki but wasn't shown that he even got close to light speed.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 9, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Lol didnt you just ask me the same thing in the Powers directory thread, about goku not being far below gotenks. Since I dont feel like digging up an ancient post of mine for the second time to day Ill just explain it. Roshi's blast in the 21st bodukai that blew up the moon clearly reached it and did so in a second or less.  The distance from the earth to the moon is so great that the blast was calculated to be light speed or above by those here. DB characters dodge blasts like that all the time. After that you could go in denial like bullet and say even those theres images of their blasts causing explosions in the distance a panel after being shot from earth or the like, theres no specific scan of wording that provides proof of light speed, but I think to most it should be fairly apparent how fast these blasts are capable of moving and how fast DB characters are able to dodge.



That was the anime, there is no way to calculate the time it took for the beam to reach the moon from what they showed in the manga.




			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Cell threatened to blow up the Solar System. Theres no absolute irrefutable definitive proof of any blast being powerful enough to do so, but I dont see how people can buy Superman's statement of being able to split the moon in half with a punch, and not beleive Cell's statement, pretending not to be biased. None of the Characters in DB seemed to think he was bluffing either, yet with Superman's deal he was in anger in front of a peon and very likely overexxagerating.



Cell threatened to blow up the EARTH!! not the solar system. Get it right.


----------



## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> He might have more ki but wasn't shown that he even got close to light speed.



In flying and doing loopdiloops around the world Id say perhaps not, but in fighting which is the main purpose of the manga, Id say yes it was shown. Not to mention Supes fans always site his vibrating phasing through enemy's attacks as him going light speed, when didnt Goku do the same thing to Jeice and Burter in the Freeza saga.

To realize the DB characters move way faster in combat than running  or traversing the landd all you have to do is look at the replayed exchange between Roshi and Krillen from the 21st bodukai when they claimed to have spat kicked at punched and had several dozen interactions in under a second. And their battle speed has only gotten faster since then. They arent even visible to the naked eye when fighting in close combat, you have to sense them with ki.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 9, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Not to mention Supes fans always site his vibrating phasing through enemy's attacks as him going light speed, when didnt Goku do the same thing to Jeice and Burter in the Freeza saga.



Again that was anime filler. Man, if I had a dollar for everytime someone used anime filler as evidence in this thread I would be rich...well maybe not rich but you get the point


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## Bullet (Feb 9, 2006)

> Not to mention Supes fans always site his vibrating phasing through enemy's attacks as him going light speed, when didnt Goku do the same thing to Jeice and Burter in the Freeza saga.



Except Goku was moving out of the way, the other DBZ characters just couldn't see him move, we can see his foot prints on the ground, so he was steping out of the way, he was just to fast for any of them to see him. Superman was able to vibrate his body through a oncoming photon from DD's Lighting/Fire breath, plus Supes can vibrate invisible with his speed.


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Except Goku was moving out of the way, the other DBZ characters just couldn't see him move, we can see his foot prints on the ground, so he was steping out of the way, he was just to fast for any of them to see him. Superman was able to vibrate his body through a oncoming photon from DD's Lighting/Fire breath, plus Supes can vibrate invisible with his speed.



If you cant see Goku at all when he's fighting but are forced to feel him with ki, isnt that the same thing as appearing to be invisible? and for the dodging thing, exactly how far apart were those footsteps from where they were attacking, it hardly looked like enough for him to run out of the way. If you cant see him when he's moving why then wouldnt he be able to move the whole time rather than standing there and dodging breifly when the enemies attack, so as to appear invisible all the time. But Scorp says its filler so I guess its not that big of an issue to me. Still if he's fast enough to dodge light speed blasts and above moving back then its apparent how fast his combat speed must bee.

As far as the Cell statement goes scorpio, my memory may be faulty on that as its been some time since I read the manga and Ive seen the anime more recently than that. So statements from people here probably made it seem familiar so I assumed the line was in the manga as well (either that or the PN scans were mistranslated). Still theres no denying the huge amount of systems Buu took out to obliterate 3/4ths of the DB Universe. And by the end of the series the DBZ characters are much closer to Buu than Cell in destructive power, even if we are to assume that the anime team was just talking out of their collective asses when they said he had enough power to destroy the Solar System.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 9, 2006)

> Still theres no denying the huge amount of systems Buu took out to obliterate 3/4ths of the DB Universe.


 
Buu could do that cuz he copied Supreme kais move which requires no ki lock on. So he could just warp places at will.


Goku cant do that.


----------



## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Buu could do that cuz he copied Supreme kais move which requires no ki lock on. So he could just warp places at will.
> 
> 
> Goku cant do that.



Im talking about what Buu did waaay in the past. Thats when he wiped out the majority of the DBZ universe. Not after he learned Kaiobitio's technique.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 9, 2006)

> Im talking about what Buu did waaay in the past. Thats when he wiped out the majority of the DBZ universe. Not after he learned Kaiobitio's technique


 

1. We have no idea how long that took as Kais live millions of years.

2. What does that have to do with this battle?  Bibidi would seal buu up and take him to another planet using a space ship and buu would kill everyone on it.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 9, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Im talking about what Buu did waaay in the past. Thats when he wiped out the majority of the DBZ universe. Not after he learned Kaiobitio's technique.



Actually, I believe that was anime filler too. Supreme Kai said, and I quote, "Buu had no fear or emotions. It was born to kill and destroy. In only a few years, he had destroyed several hundred planets." Impressive, but absolutely nothing on a universal scale.

If you hadnt noticed by now the anime reaaaaaaally exaggerates the power of DBZ people. That is one of the reason's why people overestimate Goku so much. Dont get me wrong, they are extremely powerful, but the most impressive feat in all of DBZ is Buu blowing up the Earth, that was the upper limit of DBZ feats in the manga.


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## Orotachi (Feb 9, 2006)

> If you hadnt noticed by now the anime reaaaaaaally exaggerates the power of DBZ people. That is one of the reason's why people overestimate Goku so much. Dont get me wrong, they are extremely powerful, but the most impressive feat in all of DBZ is Buu blowing up the Earth, that was the upper limit of DBZ feats in the manga.


Well,i think you missed freeza who blows-UP planet vegeta.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 9, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> If you cant see Goku at all when he's fighting but are forced to feel him with ki, isnt that the same thing as appearing to be invisible?



Can't be seen = moving faster than the eye/brain can lock on to/process images.  That's between 200 and 600mph for human sized targets at medium range observered by another human.  In DBZ I'm sure it's much higher than that, but it's all speculation.

Invisible due to vibrating = moving one's body/molecules so fast that light no longer reflects off of it.  This requires precise movements of around the speed of light.

See the difference?


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Can't be seen = moving faster than the eye/brain can lock on to/process images.  That's between 200 and 600mph for human sized targets at medium range observered by another human.  In DBZ I'm sure it's much higher than that, but it's all speculation.
> 
> Invisible due to vibrating = moving one's body/molecules so fast that light no longer reflects off of it.  This requires precise movements of around the speed of light.
> 
> See the difference?


Their dodging blasts that are capable of reaching the moon in a second (and that second is probably far bigger than what it really was), theres no way theyre fighting at only 200-600 mph. Im not even sure the exchange bettwn Roshi and Kurririn way back when couldve been done at that speed. By the Freeza saga theyre appearing as flashes of light.

And I never did see the anime for the Buu saga so I know this has to be manga specific, but after Kibito first mentioned Buu and said what he had done and before the fight between Gohan and Darbura sometime, Goku tells Kaioushin he only expects Buu to be about as strong as Cell. When in fact he turned out to be much stronger. This means Goku reasonably beleived Cell couldve obliterated the majority of the DBZ Univere (not with a single blast, but that he was poweful enough to have done so), and we all know by the end of the series theyre all much stronger than cell and Goku's more powerful than Buu. And even with Bibidi locking up Buu later on to take him from planet to planet because he was too hard to control, its illogical to assume that the obliteration took anywhere near millions of years.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 9, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> Well,i think you missed freeza who blows planet vegeta.



Again, Freiza blows up the core of the planets causeing them to eventually expload. Thats why it took so long for Namik to blow up. His attacks were not truely planet destroying blasts in the since it had the power to obliterate a planet, justs its core.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Their dodging blasts that are capable of reaching the moon in a second (and that second is probably far bigger than what it really was)



Where did you get that second from??? You cant tell from the manga how long it took.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> And I never did see the anime for the Buu saga so I know this has to be manga specific, but after Kibito first mentioned Buu and said what he had done and before the fight between Gohan and Darbura sometime, Goku tells Kaioushin he only expects Buu to be about as strong as Cell. When in fact he turned out to be much stronger. This means Goku reasonably beleived Cell couldve obliterated the majority of the DBZ Univere (not with a single blast, but that he was poweful enough to have done so), and we all know by the end of the series theyre all much stronger than cell and Goku's more powerful than Buu. And even with Bibidi locking up Buu later on to take him from planet to planet because he was too hard to control, its illogical to assume that the obliteration took anywhere near millions of years.



I repeat, and Im quoteing directly form the manga which I have right in front of me right now, "Buu had no fear or emotions. It was born to kill and destroy. In only a few years, he had destroyed several hundred planets." Supreme Kai then goes on to say that Earth was Buu's next target but one of the Kai's killed Babi-dai while Buu was sealed and that ended his rampage until Goku and them see him released.


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## Viciousness (Feb 9, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Again, Freiza blows up the core of the planets causeing them to eventually expload. Thats why it took so long for Namik to blow up. His attacks were not truely planet destroying blasts in the since it had the power to obliterate a planet, justs its core.



Thats not why it took so long, its because Freeza was scared he'd kill himself in the explosion if he put everything into it. Its not an eventually thing. it couldve happened that instant, infact Kaio Sama thought the planet was destroyed when he felt Freeza throw the blast because he knew Freeza was capable of destroying it instantly. There was no eventually about it with Kid Buu either.



> Where did you get that second from??? You cant tell from the manga how long it took.



Looking at the 2 frames back to back from when he fires it and when it blows up Yamachas hair is still up in the air and stuff is flying about from when he initially fired the blast. Theres no way it couldve reached the moon 10 seconds later and the image still looked like that from earth as a result of his initial firing. Ill post it when I have time but for now Ive gotta get started on alot of homework I was putting off since I was sick. No time to dig around for scans right now sorry, but I will post it this weekend if you want.




> I repeat, and Im quoteing directly form the manga which I have right in front of me right now, "Buu had no fear or emotions. It was born to kill and destroy. In only a few years, he had destroyed several hundred planets." Supreme Kai then goes on to say that Earth was Buu's next target but one of the Kai's killed Babi-dai while Buu was sealed and that ended his rampage until Goku and them see him released.



Oh I was talking about what Tousen said about it taking millions of years. That shows the destruction caused by Buu was much faster, and he took out the kaioshins in every other section plus the Dai Kaioshin in only " a few years" not millions like Tousen was trying to suggest.
edit: I guess you mean as far as how powerful Cell and Buu were with my earlier Goku statement. Still it doesnt give any confirmation of how many planets he took out at a time, we just know he was held by Bibidi's magic whenever it was time to move on because he was hard to control. But if you ask me to concede the solar system thing regardless its ok, you dont need to be capable of shooting millions of solar system destroying blasts at above light speed just to defeat supes. But if Freeza could destroy a planet without exhausting much energy and Goku was immensely more powerful by the end i'd say the blasts he was capable of firing were sufficient.
Anyway Ill be back with some scans next time (probably this weekend), for those like bullet that refuse to listen to arguments otherwise.


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## Orotachi (Feb 9, 2006)

> Again, Freiza blows up the core of the planets causeing them to eventually expload. Thats why it took so long for Namik to blow up. His attacks were not truely planet destroying blasts in the since it had the power to obliterate a planet, justs its core.


How can you be so sure that he target the core,during the End of the saiyans?well,i think you mis interpreted the wrong line(it was planet namek),freeza said to goku that he would END the fight w/ the destruction of this planet(namek),but none of them including freeza expect that the core was targeted.
and during the battle between ssj goku vs. freeza,freeza managed to explode goku using that giant red energyball(if you remember that)them goku suddenly punches it through outside the space! and then someone planet has been hit and you know what?that planet destroyed!
except the fact that buu has no feelings and totally evil,unlike freeza who can be negotiated after you give what he want 
see the difference?planet vegeta(intensional explosion) and planet namek(unexpected core target).


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 9, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Their dodging blasts that are capable of reaching the moon in a second (and that second is probably far bigger than what it really was), theres no way theyre fighting at only 200-600 mph. Im not even sure the exchange bettwn Roshi and Kurririn way back when couldve been done at that speed. By the Freeza saga theyre appearing as flashes of light.


I agree and by no means meant to imply that Goku's top speed is anywhere near 600mph, I was mearly trying to show the difference between Superman's "vibrate to turn invisible" trick and Goku's "he moves so fast I can't see him."

Goku's _could_ be done at a much lower speed.  We could make guesses with Goku based on how easily which characters adapt to being able to see him as he moves, and guess that multiples of strength of chi = multiples of speed, however that requires quite a few assumptions on our part.  So from his trick we really know nothing, other than he's moving at least 200mph (though probably much higher, for the record the speed of light is 3,353,083 times faster than the "minimum" needed for this feat, so excuse me if I think that this is proof that Goku is near-light-speed is streatching things).

Superman's feat requires him to be moving at nearly the speed of light in small percise movements.  It also requires him to be able to precieve things moving at the speed of light (Otherwise, HE wouldn't be able to see anything when doing this trick).


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 9, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Thats not why it took so long, its because Freeza was scared he'd kill himself in the explosion if he put everything into it. Its not an eventually thing. it couldve happened that instant, infact Kaio Sama thought the planet was destroyed when he felt Freeza throw the blast because he knew Freeza was capable of destroying it instantly. There was no eventually about it with Kid Buu either.



True, he could have destroyed it faster. I just used the time thing to show how he destroy's planets. What happened on Namik was pretty much a slow motion version of what he normally does. Either way though, Frieza still blows up the cores of planets, he just didnt put enough energy into it to destroy it fast.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Looking at the 2 frames back to back from when he fires it and when it blows up Yamachas hair is still up in the air and stuff is flying about from when he initially fired the blast. Theres no way it couldve reached the moon 10 seconds later and the image still looked like that from earth as a result of his initial firing. Ill post it when I have time but for now Ive gotta get started on alot of homework I was putting off since I was sick. No time to dig around for scans right now sorry, but I will post it this weekend if you want.



I have the manga in front of me and there was more then 2 frames, there was 4 *pages* before you see that the moon was destroyed after Roshi fired the blast.



			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> How can you be so sure that he target the core,during the End of the saiyans?well,i think you mis interpreted the wrong line(it was planet namek),freeza said to goku that he would END the fight w/ the destruction of this planet(namek),but none of them including freeza expect that the core was targeted.
> and during the battle between ssj goku vs. freeza,freeza managed to explode goku using that giant red energyball(if you remember that)them goku suddenly punches it through outside the space! and then someone planet has been hit and you know what?that planet destroyed!
> except the fact that buu has no feelings and totally evil,unlike freeza who can be negotiated after you give what he want
> see the difference?planet vegeta(intensional explosion) and planet namek(unexpected core target).



ya, Im pretty sure like 90% of that was anime filler...


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## Orotachi (Feb 9, 2006)

> ya, Im pretty sure like 90% of that was anime filler...


Freeza nor vegeta are capable of destroying planets,it won't changed
EVEN THOUGHT...its part of the story,it won't be changed by you...


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## Bullet (Feb 9, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> EVEN THOUGHT...its part of the story,it can't changed...
> Freeza nor vegeta are capable of destroying the planet,it won't changed




They can destroy a planet, just not in the way you're thinking. They can't oneshot a planet with one small "KI" blasts, they force there charged blasts through the planet towards the core or at least damage it bad enough that it's it'll explode.


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## Orotachi (Feb 9, 2006)

> They can destroy a planet, just not in the way you're thinking. They can't oneshot a planet with one small "KI" blasts, they force there charged blasts through the planet towards the core or at least damage it bad enough that it's it'll explode.


Almost all of Goku's rivals can destroyed moon and planets.how about doomsday(that cause superman fight to death)can he destroyed planets?
As what we've seen,the justice leagues are going to stop doomsday of going in metropolis w/c resulting the battle conceivably destroyed the city and kill millions of innocent people.


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## Tousenz (Feb 9, 2006)

> Almost all of Goku's rival can destroyed moon and planets.how about doomsday(that cause superman to fight to death)can he destroyed planets?
> as what ive seen,justice leagues are going to stop doomsday to go in metropolis w/c resulting the battle conceivably destroy the city and kill millions of innocent people


 
=/


Um yea we not talking about cartoons. Comics/manga only please.

And if english isn't your first language why come to this board?


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## Orotachi (Feb 9, 2006)

> Um yea we not talking about cartoons.



Um yea we not talking about cartoons. =*"Umm yeah,we're not talking about cartoons."*


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## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> Um yea we not talking about cartoons. =*"Umm yeah,we're not talking about cartoons."*


 

No where not. OBD uses canon material in the form of manga and/or comics whenever present.

If these are lacking or doesn't exist then we use the tv shows.


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## Deophite18 (Feb 10, 2006)

I wont deny that Superman does not have the same speed as goku. However seeing as Goku has the ability of instant teleportation that is the same thing as being able to move at light speed. Superman cannot move at light speed and would not be able to counter attack like that. Second, superman is used to simply pummeling his opponents brawl style. He has no martial arts skills whereas goku has trained since he was a child. Even if they have the same speed supermans attacks would be easily evaded. Lastly. Superman gets his powers from the sun. If goku wanted to win all he would have to do is teleport him to some planet in another galaxy and he would be powerless then goku would snap his neck. Goku wins.

PS. If someone like doomsday was able to kill superman by beating him to death with brute force then there is no reason goku couldnt do the same. Also the Dragonball Z RPG like D&D states that a character is able to defeat superman with like a 10k powerlevel. I know that isnt saying much since they people who wrote it are DBZ people but still im sure they took into account supermans strength and ability.


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## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> Dragonball Z RPG like D&D states that a character is able to defeat superman with like a 10k powerlevel. I know that isnt saying much since they people who wrote it are DBZ people but still im sure they took into account supermans strength and ability.


 

10k...... yeah this thread is pretty much over. People underestimate pushing moons and playing with black holes.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 10, 2006)

all you can do is talk about a feat, why don't you talk about a fight for once in your life.

your basis of statement is normally a statement of feats and numbers.  u don't say anything about fighting.  honestly this isn't a recreation bench pressing competition, this is a fight.  and you can't deny the anime of DBZ considering Toriyama had to ok all of the stuff in DBZ.  he was the creative consultant, meaning if they were to add something that wasn't in the manga, he had to give the ok.  like gregory and the otherworld tournament.  i see DBGT not being included cause that was not Toriyama's work, but DBZ manga/anime is, so stop trying to use "that wasn't in the manga" as a cop out, cause i'll just say "if its cool with Toriyama (the creator of DBZ), it must be what they can do".

oh yeah, i finally came to conclusion that goku didn't have to be pure of heart to do kaioken, just the spirit bomb.  i only saw king kai saying that he had to be pure of heart for the spirit bomb.  so he could have conceivably did SSJ Kaoiken, its just that Toriyama didn't think about Kaioken after SSJ came along.

good post Deophite18
*
10k...... yeah this thread is pretty much over. People underestimate pushing moons and playing with black holes.*

nope people are taking that into consideration and saying goku would still beat him.  what does playing with a black hole have to do with a fight, honestly.


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## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> nope people are taking that into consideration and saying goku would still beat him. what does playing with a black hole have to do with a fight, honestly


 
Saying that even with a 10k powerlevel he would beat superman... when he couldnt even  handle 40x gravity at that powerlevel.


Seriously just admit you hate the thought of Goku losing to someone and get it over with.

I be you dont even know Chou Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 goku.


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## Deophite18 (Feb 10, 2006)

No, sorry i like both DBZ and superman. I have read superman comics since i was a child.There were times when he could move celestial bodies with his strength and blow out stars with his breath...he has been upgraded and downgraded many times. You ignored all the other points i made. You are the one who needs to accept superman would be outclassed. Goku has the neccesary techniques needed to beat him. Superman never displayed power great enough to be able to destroy an entire galaxy muchless the universe. DBZ is full of planet busters or galaxy busters and goku is at the top of that list.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 10, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Saying that even with a 10k powerlevel he would beat superman... when he couldnt even  handle 40x gravity at that powerlevel.
> 
> 
> Seriously just admit you hate the thought of Goku losing to someone and get it over with.
> ...



well for the last part, you're now just saying stupid stuff that i guess are supposedly insults.  and not good ones at that.

and actually for the RPG i didn't know if they were talkin bout the real DBZ like 10k power level, or if the RPG is using a different type of power level system.  

it actually seems like u hate the thought of superman losing to goku with the type of post you put up.  you really have no points in your arguments.

it seems like you're sitting at your computer with a red towel on your neck getting mad because people aren't cheering for superman to win the fight as you want them too.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> your basis of statement is normally a statement of feats and numbers.  u don't say anything about fighting.  honestly this isn't a recreation bench pressing competition, this is a fight.


Well, this is true enough, however we use statstics such as strength and speed to determine how they'd do in a fight.  A person that can bench 300lbs on average will be able to hit harder than a person that can bench 200lbs.

Superman will hit harder (with a phyiscal punch) than anyone in DBZ.  But honestly I don't see any coherent arguments to that point.

Speed is more pressing of an issue, because it determines who is able to hit whom.  If Supes is 1000x faster than Goku, then Goku is screwed; because Supes is more than strong enough to hurt him and at that rate of speed Goku won't be able to dodge.

Goku _might_ be a better martial artist than Superman, but even in the DBZ world that really doesn't matter much it's all "power level."



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and you can't deny the anime of DBZ considering Toriyama had to ok all of the stuff in DBZ.  he was the creative consultant, meaning if they were to add something that wasn't in the manga, he had to give the ok.  like gregory and the otherworld tournament.  i see DBGT not being included cause that was not Toriyama's work, but DBZ manga/anime is, so stop trying to use "that wasn't in the manga" as a cop out, cause i'll just say "if its cool with Toriyama (the creator of DBZ), it must be what they can do".


Here's where you start to fall out.  Fights have to have boundries, that's where the whole canon evidence comes from.  Toriyama may have been a consultant on the anime, but he didn't have creative control over it, nor did he have editorial rights to say "don't do that."  He likely got asked quite a bit as to what would work well or look good, but we have no idea which changes were from him or okayed by him and which were fought by him or dismissed by him.  That's why we limit the fight to the works he actually did create.


So, basically where we're at:
1.  Superman can kill him if he can hit him.
2a.  Superman is most likely much faster than him, so most likely will be able to hit him.
2b.  A hit from Superman will kill Goku, reference "1".
3a.  Even if we assume that Goku's about the same speed as Superman, Goku's stamina limit at SSJ3 was about 3 minutes.  Superman can fight at full strength for hours (days, weeks).
3b.  That means Goku's only hope is a full force blast, and his blast of choice in this fight would be Kami-hami-ha, _a blast that has never killed a major opponent of Goku's_ (well, in DBZ at least).  It's also a blast that's biggest claim to fame was when it destroyed the Moon (which Goku didn't do), though Goku said that Cell's could have destroyed Earth if we take his word for it.
3c.  Superman has been hit by blasts that knock him through the entire planet and still been at fighting force.  So it's unlikely that Goku's last-ditch hit will end the fight.

Any uses of IT by Goku on Superman means Goku just got in arms reach of Superman, that means Goku is dead.

Any use of the spirit bomb by Goku will just eat up precious time and energy of Goku's (not that Goku would know this for sure), as Superman counts as "pure of heart" if anyone does.

I think that covers most of the discussion.  Any questions?

I read a fanfic once where Superman radiates an anti-saijin aura, with that Goku dies as soon as he gets within 1.2 parsecs of Superman.  Too bad it was pre-crisis Supes.


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## Deophite18 (Feb 10, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Well, this is true enough, however we use statstics such as strength and speed to determine how they'd do in a fight.  A person that can bench 300lbs on average will be able to hit harder than a person that can bench 200lbs.
> 
> Superman will hit harder (with a phyiscal punch) than anyone in DBZ.  But honestly I don't see any coherent arguments to that point.
> 
> ...



I honestly believe Goku is faster than superman. Don't ignore the fact that goku has teleportation and is able to attack using it. Superman cannot defend against a lightspeed attack. Sure superman flies around the world superfast but pan also did that for training purposes as a child and she was far weaker than goku. Also do not ignore the fact that this fight would be over in 2 seconds if the sun was taken care of. And there are several ways to do that. Superman also isnt THAT much stronger than goku and all superman would have is his speed and strength. His eye beams would be null and void seeing as goku could just treeat it as any other Ki attack and put a shield up or deflect it. Same goes for his super breathe. Goku can cause the same force with his hands. I love superman just as much as DBZ and i will not argue that he is probably one of the strongest heroes in the DC world but once you pit him against Goku he just wouldnt be able to measure up. After seeing superman battle countless villains in comics and after seeing Goku battle badguys in DBZ i just dont think he could measure up to DBZ's RAW power. Superman is not invincible. He bleeds. Doomsday is proof of that. If you hit him hard enough it will hurt him and eventually kill him. And like i said before he has shown awesome power. But nothing on the scaled of being capable of destroying an entire galaxy or the universe
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## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2006)

Deophite18 said:
			
		

> I honestly believe Goku is faster than superman.


Well, that's fair enough for you to believe.  Once you can bring some evidence to get me to believe it, you'll have a case 



			
				Deophite18 said:
			
		

> Don't ignore the fact that goku has teleportation and is able to attack using it.


He can teleport and attack at the new location, this is true, he can't attack while teleporting though (unless we're brining in non-canon movies/GT).



			
				Deophite18 said:
			
		

> Superman cannot defend against a lightspeed attack.


Sure he can.  He can observe attacks moving at lightspeed, and he can move at 99% of lightspeed, that's sufficient to dodge most lightspeed attacks.



			
				Deophite18 said:
			
		

> Also do not ignore the fact that this fight would be over in 2 seconds if the sun was taken care of. And there are several ways to do that.


Actually, it wouldn't.  Superman's kinda a solar-battery.  He can last for quite a while without the sun's presence.  Even if we assume Goku can destroy the sun and would want to, it wouldn't matter over the course of this fight.



			
				Deophite18 said:
			
		

> Superman also isnt THAT much stronger than goku and all superman would have is his speed and strength. His eye beams would be null and void seeing as goku could just treeat it as any other Ki attack and put a shield up or deflect it. Same goes for his super breathe. Goku can cause the same force with his hands.


Well, in physical strength I'm pretty sure he is much stronger.  Goku's never been a physical strength attack person.  I honestly don't think the energy-projection attacks are worth fighting about as I don't think Supes would need them, and I don't think Goku's attacks would be enough to hurt Superman.



			
				Deophite18 said:
			
		

> I love superman just as much as DBZ and i will not argue that he is probably one of the strongest heroes in the DC world but once you pit him against Goku he just wouldnt be able to measure up. After seeing superman battle countless villains in comics and after seeing Goku battle badguys in DBZ i just dont think he could measure up to DBZ's RAW power. Superman is not invincible. He bleeds. Doomsday is proof of that. If you hit him hard enough it will hurt him and eventually kill him.


Yes, if you hit him hard enough you can hurt him.  I don't think Goku can hit him hard enough (and just for the record, Superman had a kind of rough week before he fought Doomsday and was "killed").



			
				Deophite18 said:
			
		

> And like i said before he has shown awesome power. But nothing on the scaled of being capable of destroying an entire galaxy or the universe


Well, Superman fights people who can destroy planets all the time.  Where have we seen an attack in DBZ that can destroy more than one planet at a time?  Buu was very effecient at this, but he still blew them up one at a time.


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## K I S K E (Feb 10, 2006)

Speed wise... I think SUper Man has this... I mean, the only real time Goku was extremely fast was when he was in a battle.. Oh wait, he is.  I still think he is outclassed by Supes, and he isnt as strong as him... I think he may have more stamina... But I dunno... I say Super Man wins... but, meh.


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## Deophite18 (Feb 10, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Well, that's fair enough for you to believe.  Once you can bring some evidence to get me to believe it, you'll have a case
> 
> 
> He can teleport and attack at the new location, this is true, he can't attack while teleporting though (unless we're brining in non-canon movies/GT).
> ...




I have never seen any proof of superman being able to see things moving at light speed and i know he cannot fly at 99% lightspeed. Also Imagine someone instantly appearing behind you hitting you and before you even realize you have been hit they appear to the left hit you again then the right and hit you again. before your body has even moved an inch. That is the speed goku has with teleportation and superman would have no defense against it. Buu blew up planets one at a time but it was said he was capable of destroying the universe. Goku becomes stronger than Buu therfore someone capable of destroying the universe could kill superman. Supermans body is tough against projectile attacks but it isnt imperveuous to them a strong enough Ki attack would damage him a lot especially considering he got pretty messed up by 1 nuclear missle in a comic book i remmeber reading...i think i still actually have it. And his power does not last long without the sun...that has also been proven. It is true he would not lose it instantly but he would get weaker and im not saying destroying the sun cause that would be dumb of him. Im saying warping him to a galaxy that has no yellow sun. You are mixning in supermans powers from a lot of different points in time. Some from pre crisis and some from later on when he isnt as powerful. Pre crisis superman would be the only one to even have a snowballs chance in hell against goku.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 10, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and you can't deny the anime of DBZ considering Toriyama had to ok all of the stuff in DBZ.  he was the creative consultant, meaning if they were to add something that wasn't in the manga, he had to give the ok.  like gregory and the otherworld tournament.  i see DBGT not being included cause that was not Toriyama's work, but DBZ manga/anime is, so stop trying to use "that wasn't in the manga" as a cop out, cause i'll just say "if its cool with Toriyama (the creator of DBZ), it must be what they can do".



Do you know what a creative consultant is? A creative consultant does not get to "ok" anything, they dont have editing rights or any real say in what makes it to the final cut. Yes, some of the things added in the manga might have been oked by Toriyama or even something Toriyama came up with and told the writers and animaters to add in, but we have no way of telling now do we? Its just a basic rule that manga/comics = canon. A "creative consultant" position means nothing about the validiaty of anime filler.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 10, 2006)

*Well, this is true enough, however we use statstics such as strength and speed to determine how they'd do in a fight. A person that can bench 300lbs on average will be able to hit harder than a person that can bench 200lbs.*

thats just a false statement, punching power does not depend on benching.  thats why bruce lee had such a great punch.  u seem to not be getting the fact that goku's hits are both physically strong and ki enhanced.  bruce lee's 2-inch punch didn't come from bench pressing.

and as for this..........

So, basically where we're at:
*1. Superman can kill him if he can hit him.
2a. Superman is most likely much faster than him, so most likely will be able to hit him.
2b. A hit from Superman will kill Goku, reference "1".
3a. Even if we assume that Goku's about the same speed as Superman, Goku's stamina limit at SSJ3 was about 3 minutes. Superman can fight at full strength for hours (days, weeks).
3b. That means Goku's only hope is a full force blast, and his blast of choice in this fight would be Kami-hami-ha, a blast that has never killed a major opponent of Goku's (well, in DBZ at least). It's also a blast that's biggest claim to fame was when it destroyed the Moon (which Goku didn't do), though Goku said that Cell's could have destroyed Earth if we take his word for it.
3c. Superman has been hit by blasts that knock him through the entire planet and still been at fighting force. So it's unlikely that Goku's last-ditch hit will end the fight.*

when did we all agree on this..........i don't agree with any of those comments.  goku's kamehameha could destroy the moon easily, are you saying Roshi's kamehameha is stronger than Goku's?????????  and considering that blew the moon up but isn't even defeating opponents is another reason why DBZ character's durability is very high considering the moon is a feat done by Roshi, to say SSJ Goku couldn't do WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better would be rather stupid.  so yes, cell's kamehameha could have destroyed the earth, i'm sure goku wouldn't say it for no reason.  and with the Toriyama thing, if he gave DBZ to the company that did the animation, he is actually giving them the right to do with the story what they want.  which actually means that the anime could actually be considered canon, toriyama never came out and pointed to the anime of DBZ and said, that isn't canon.  but he did say it about the movies and GT.

*Well, Superman fights people who can destroy planets all the time. Where have we seen an attack in DBZ that can destroy more than one planet at a time? Buu was very effecient at this, but he still blew them up one at a time.*

and was doing it with ki blasts that weren't even his best.  

and about the speed, i'm not saying it'll take Goku going SSJ3 to be fast enough for superman, i'm actually thinking SSJ will be enough to take down superman.


----------



## K I S K E (Feb 10, 2006)

How?  SS3 was hella ipressive, but he lacked the strength of Dooms Day. ...  And it lasts for only a few minutes.  We established this.  Super Mans battery lasts for..weeks. And then he gets weak.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 10, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and with the Toriyama thing, if he gave DBZ to the company that did the animation, he is actually giving them the right to do with the story what they want.  which actually means that the anime could actually be considered canon, toriyama never came out and pointed to the anime of DBZ and said, that isn't canon.  but he did say it about the movies and GT.



So I guess its canon that Tsunade actually hit Orochimaru like 100 times in the face instead of 1 and he was just fine? Its also canon that Goku SSJ2 has to strugle to rip apart a small mountain and gets hurt by being hit by small bouders? Is it also canon that it took Super Gotenks most of his fusion period to travel around the world a few times? Or how about Goku struggling to pick up a school bus?

Sorry, anime =/= canon unless there is no manga its based off of. The selling of rights means nothing or else that would mean English Dubs now become canon since the rights were sold to them to make changes as they see fit.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and was doing it with ki blasts that weren't even his best.



That was Buu's best showing in DBZ. No energy attack from Buu was stronger then that. Plus there is the fact that it was basically stated that Goku and Vegita would have died in the explosion of the Earth if Supreme Kai didnt save them. Superman could survive that blast however.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 10, 2006)

when did we establish SSJ3 was weaker than doomsday, i don't see any post that says ok we agree with you that SSJ3 is weaker than doomsday.  between you and evilmoongle yall are really putting words in people's mouth in this thread.



			
				Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Do you know what a creative consultant is? A creative consultant does not get to "ok" anything, they dont have editing rights or any real say in what makes it to the final cut. Yes, some of the things added in the manga might have been oked by Toriyama or even something Toriyama came up with and told the writers and animaters to add in, but we have no way of telling now do we? Its just a basic rule that manga/comics = canon. A "creative consultant" position means nothing about the validiaty of anime filler.



is that why Toriyama himself was responsible for Gregory.  DrunkenYoshimaster actually had an interview from Toriyama talking about what he did for the anime.  and yes he was getting calls saying is it ok to do this and that.  but i'm actually gonna stick to the manga because thats the rules.

now about the speed.........

i just saw on the last page that it was said in just a few years Buu destroyed several hundred planets.  um that means buu was outside of our solar system destroying several hundred planets in a few years.  so he must've been traveling past the speed of light considering some planets are light years apart.  i mean the closest star other than our sun is 4.32 light years away.  and a light year is the distance light travels in a year.  so i would have to say DBZ characters are moving past the speed of light.

*That was Buu's best showing in DBZ. No energy attack from Buu was stronger then that. Plus there is the fact that it was basically stated that Goku and Vegita would have died in the explosion of the Earth if Supreme Kai didnt save them. Superman could survive that blast however.*

well i was referring to when the anime had him destroying planets, but that wasn't in the manga and it was only stated in the manga.  so no biggie.  look above though.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 10, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> now about the speed.........
> 
> i just saw on the last page that it was said in just a few years Buu destroyed several hundred planets.  um that means buu was outside of our solar system destroying several hundred planets in a few years.  so he must've been traveling past the speed of light considering some planets are light years apart.  i mean the closest star other than our sun is 4.32 light years away.  and a light year is the distance light travels in a year.  so i would have to say DBZ characters are moving past the speed of light.



Goku traveled between solar systems in 6 days in a space ship with normal Saiyan tecnology and Saiyans wernt even _that_ technologically advanced. Buu was being controlled by Babi-dai and was sealed up between planet destroying. While its theoretically possible that Buu traveled all that distance on his own (but then how was Babi-dai able to keep up with him????) its far more likely that they used a ship. Its not really proof of anything, just more speculation.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 10, 2006)

actually considering that the kai basically said buu was destroying the planets, it would be moreso speculation that bibidi had him sealed and kept re-sealing him.  it would be more speculation considering that bibidi couldn't even control buu.

kaoishin even stated that majin buu was a creation bibidi couldn't handle.  he was only sealed after he turned into fat buu because his original state was uncontrollable.  so yes it is more than likely that buu was doing this on his own than not considering bibidi couldn't even seal him back then.


----------



## Rice Ball (Feb 10, 2006)

This is still going on 

unknowndanex is just in a hyper state of Fanboisum.
He basiclly isn't backing up any claims hes making, hes disputing everything said about superman, rubbishing it with no proof otherwise :|

And everyones just repeating whats being said, 



> when did we all agree on this..........i don't agree with any of those comments.



Thats fine, there your own views, lets leave it at that.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> when did we all agree on this..........i don't agree with any of those comments.



If you really think that Superman isn't capible of hurting Goku if he can get his hands on him, there's no point in continuing this argument, you've obviously got a view of Goku that's impossibly different from mine.

Goku gets killed 2-3 times in his own series.  By hits that didn't take the planet with them.  Take him off the freaking pedestal already.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 10, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> This is still going on
> 
> unknowndanex is just in a hyper state of Fanboisum.
> He basiclly isn't backing up any claims hes making, hes disputing everything said about superman, rubbishing it with no proof otherwise :|
> ...



but my statement is true, bidibi couldn't control buu meaning he couldn't seal him up after every planet buu destroyed.  considering he had to wait for him to become fat buu to seal him because his demeanor had changed.

now for the superman thing, i never disputed anything about superman.  i'm disputing the underrating i see yall give to goku.

you're the only one on here with the exception of tousen who sounds fanboyish.  it is the both of yall who come with no argument but just say that oooooooooo he's not for superman, then he's a DBZ fanboy.  braindx even said i was the only goku supporter in this thread worth anything and wasn't comin from a fanboy point of view, and it appeared as if he was for superman as well.  DrunkenYoshimaster has also made good claims.

but you're doing the same thing all the other supes fanboys do, try to be the first to call someone else fanboys, especially when you get stumped.


*If you really think that Superman isn't capible of hurting Goku if he can get his hands on him, there's no point in continuing this argument, you've obviously got a view of Goku that's impossibly different from mine.

Goku gets killed 2-3 times in his own series. By hits that didn't take the planet with them. Take him off the freaking pedestal already.*

you misinterpreted me...............i said superman wouldn't beat goku in one hit which was in one of the points you made.  now i'm not stupid enough to say goku can't hurt superman cause thats bullshit.  yall are the ones acting as if goku can't hurt superman though which is also ridiculous.

and lets see, how did Goku die let me think.............

oh yeah back when Piccolo killed him with the Special Beam Canon which went through both raditz and goku, hmmmmmmmm he didn't even go to king kai's by that time (so now we're comparing Superman to Goku in the Raditz series).  and the second time was when Cell self-destructed with a planet destroying move.  

your comments were pretty idiotic.  it seems like you're just running off at the mouth because i don't think superman will win.  it seems like you're the one with superman on the pedestal thinking he can beat goku with one hit.  and when is this 3rd death that u seem to think about.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> ut my statement is true, bidibi couldn't control buu meaning he couldn't seal him up after every planet buu destroyed. considering he had to wait for him to become fat buu to seal him because his demeanor had changed.


 


He sealed him when he was kid buu. That was his only threat. Thats why it buu didnt kill he.


*SON GOKOU* 
-Killed by Piccolo's Makankonsappo while holding Raditz in it's path [Saiya-jin saga] 
-Blown up by Cell when he teleported him off the Earth [Cell saga] 
-Died of Heart Diease in Future Trunks' timeline [Alternate timeline] 


He meant that goku is so lame he died from a virus.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> oh yeah back when Piccolo killed him with the Special Beam Canon which went through both raditz and goku, hmmmmmmmm he didn't even go to king kai's by that time (so now we're comparing Superman to Goku in the Raditz series).  and the second time was when Cell self-destructed with a planet destroying move.



Killed by Piccolo in one hit (less than one hit since Raditz absorbed the hit first).  I'm aware that this is fairly early in the series, but let's build from there.

Would have been killed by Freeza in one hit if he wasn't dodging (by the cutting-disk-attack-that-I-don't-feel-like-looking-up-the-name-for).

Would have been killed by Cell in one hit less than a planet-destroying hit if he didn't dodge.

Was Killed by Cell in one hit by his self destruct.

Goku's power's are generally more to the offense, if he were to fight himself, he'd lose quite quickly because he's more than capible of killing himself.  Superman vs. himself takes a lot longer because Superman can take his best hit from himself multiple times.   Goku freely admits he's mortal and can get killed by sufficient force, that's why he dodges/deflects attacks.  Why can't you?

A punch from Superman when he's going all out is a "planet destroying attack" at least as strong as Cell's explosion.  I don't feel it's a wrong statment to say it would kill Goku if Goku got hit by it, thus I don't see this as a point worthy of debate.

In general, fights have at most there phases.  When it's a "one on one" fight, they go something like this:

Phase 1 is the "speedblitz" phase, where each character reacts to the start of the fight and tries to kill eachother outright.  I'm of the opinion that the fight would end here, however in difference to you I'll go on assuming they're about the same speed and would be able to dodge the initial assaults of each other.

Phase 2 is the "tactical" phase where the characters will use their extended abilities to try to adapt to the fighting style of eachother.  Honestly I don't consider major changes to occur here because Goku isn't generally that tactical of a fighter and the plan I've proposed for Superman is rather straightforward (this is going to get me flamed, oh well.  Bring it, but please post specifics and how they'd be useful in this fight).

Phase 3 is the "stamina" phase, where if all else fails the fight goes to the one that can remain standing the longest.  Goku himself states that he can only maintain SSJ3 for 3 minutes, even if we assume that "Rematch Goku" is 5 times stronger than canon Goku, that's a 15 minute time limit before he runs out of juice.  Superman CAN go on longer than that, even when not in the presence of the yellow sun.

Assuming the fight goes past "phase 1" that means Goku has a very limited time to kill Superman -- without getting killed himself.  Superman can take planet-destroying hits, and Goku can't, so Goku also has to fight without getting into a situation where he's trading blows with Superman.  That generally means he'll have to stay out of arm's reach.

Since my arguments don't seem to work well on you, I'll pose the question to you, how does Goku do it?


----------



## Rice Ball (Feb 10, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> He meant that goku is so lame he died from a virus.



Captain Marvel died of Cancer....


----------



## Gunners (Feb 10, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Killed by Piccolo in one hit (less than one hit since Raditz absorbed the hit first).  I'm aware that this is fairly early in the series, but let's build from there.
> 
> Would have been killed by Freeza in one hit if he wasn't dodging (by the cutting-disk-attack-that-I-don't-feel-like-looking-up-the-name-for).
> 
> ...




Yeh, you do realise the force behind the attacks are designed to kill

Special beam cannon doesnt have to blow up the planet, it is a piercing attack.

Yeh he almost died of a virus, but the one we are talking about didnt.

Cell killed him with a move that would have wiped out the planet.

Gokou can take planet blowing attacks, i assume the one vegeta fired at him wouldnt even scratch him by the end of the series.



> Phase 2 is the "tactical" phase where the characters will use their extended abilities to try to adapt to the fighting style of eachother.  Honestly I don't consider major changes to occur here because Goku isn't generally that tactical of a fighter and the plan I've proposed for Superman is rather straightforward (this is going to get me flamed, oh well.  Bring it, but please post specifics and how they'd be useful in this fight).



Gokou is a fighting genius, i dont know where you get of speaking that, you are the one making up random facts. Warp kamehame ha, that is enough for now anyway.

Personally, i think gokou would win, i place him at a higher level, i can acknowledge the fact that akira used his imagination and dc made up random numbers ( quintrillion tons) that would impress people.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Yeh, you do realise the force behind the attacks are designed to kill


Of course.  The question isn't can they kill, the question is can they kill Goku or can they kill Superman.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Special beam cannon doesnt have to blow up the planet, it is a piercing attack.


So, Goku can be killed by focused attacks easier than he can by radial attacks.  That makes sense to me too.  A punch is a rather focused attack, hence the "fine pink mist" theory of Superman's punches.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Cell killed him with a move that would have wiped out the planet.


That's also fine.  One of Superman's punches could destroy the planet if he were so inclined to do so.  So one of his punches is at least roughly equal to the attack that Cell used to kill Goku.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Gokou can take planet blowing attacks, i assume the one vegeta fired at him wouldnt even scratch him by the end of the series.


When has Goku ever taken an attack -- actually been hit and not dodging/deflecting them -- and not killed by it -- that would have destroyed the planet if it hit the planet?



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Gokou is a fighting genius, i dont know where you get of speaking that, you are the one making up random facts. Warp kamehame ha, that is enough for now anyway.


Okay, he's got to either get close to Superman to use this, which leaves him open to a counter from Superman, or he's got to be far enough away that Superman could dodge the attack.  The former would be an end-of-fight for Goku (best case a draw if the kamehameha takes out Superman too), the latter just wastes some of Goku's time/energy.

Goku might be a fighting genius (so's Superman by the way), but I don't see any tactical changes that will really change how the fight developes, hence why I mostly brush off this phase in this fight.




			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Personally, i think gokou would win, i place him at a higher level, i can acknowledge the fact that akira used his imagination and dc made up random numbers ( quintrillion tons) that would impress people.


I suppose you have the right to maintain that opinion.  Bring forward some proof and maybe I'll agree with you.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> Gokou can take planet blowing attacks, i assume the one vegeta fired at him wouldnt even scratch him by the end of the series.


 
No he cant. You just said Cell killed him with it.


And Now that im thinking about it. Superman can just push the planet into the sun and watch Goku die.


Unless you going say he IT's out which is a loss by default.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 10, 2006)

> Of course. The question isn't can they kill, the question is can they kill Goku or can they kill Superman.



Well as the series progressed they rairly killed gokou, but i still beleive they would take sups down.



> So, Goku can be killed by focused attacks easier than he can by radial attacks. That makes sense to me too. A punch is a rather focused attack, hence the "fine pink mist" theory of Superman's punches.



When he got hit with special beam cannon, it had a lot of energy, it was sharp and it was moving fast, so naturally i would go through him, it would do the same to sups imo.




> That's also fine. One of Superman's punches could destroy the planet if he were so inclined to do so. So one of his punches is at least roughly equal to the attack that Cell used to kill Goku.



The two are diffrent, if i punch wodd with a force to break it, and punch someone with the same force, they wouldnt die, if i chuck a grenade at the wood, and chuck a grenade a the person, he would most likely die, do you see what im getting at.




> When has Goku ever taken an attack -- actually been hit and not dodging/deflecting them -- and not killed by it -- that would have destroyed the planet if it hit the planet?



Well if we are counting dbgt, he has, if not, why would he stand around and take the attack if he could reflect it, the way i see it, vegeeta early in the season was fired an attack to blow up the earth, i see gokou taking that attack ok by the freiza saga.




> No he cant. You just said Cell killed him with it.
> 
> 
> And Now that im thinking about it. Superman can just push the planet into the sun and watch Goku die.
> ...




No, cells attack killed because it had more energy in, as the series went on diffrent attacks had more power, vegetta planet blowing attack wouldnt have harmed gokou i doubt, cell packed alot of ki in his.

Yeh, superman would push the planet into the sun, and gokou would just stand there because he has no means of teleporting, though i doubt whether the sun would kill him.



> Unless you going say he IT's out which is a loss by default



How is that a loss by default now, you are now making things up to support yourself.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> How is that a loss by default now, you are now making things up to support yourself.


 

No thats how how the battledome works. No running away from the desginated battlefield.


If either opponents cant be killed by the convention of the word its whoever can Knock out or incapcitate there opponent.

If one of the characters are left floating in space its a loss as well.

Theres other rules we go by as well, Just cant think of them all.


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## Gunners (Feb 10, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> No thats how how the battledome works. No running away from the desginated battlefield.
> 
> 
> If either opponents cant be killed by the convention of the word its whoever can Knock out or incapcitate there opponent.
> ...



Ahh ok.

But is superman flies he and leaves the earth he should be disqualified.

Second, i know he does it, shouldnt it be impossible to push the eath since the force he puts on it, is based on the earth, at to grip the earth, he would have to be below the sky, then there is the right positioning, he could be pushing the wrong way.

Imo, strength has nothing to do with it, in my eyes it is an impossible task to do.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> Imo, strength has nothing to do with it, in my eyes it is an impossible task to do


 
So is travelling instantly. But you dont take that away from Goku.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 10, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> So is travelling instantly. But you dont take that away from Goku.




DBZ goes against our world, and rarely attempts, if ever, to use our phycics.

DC tried to use our physics, stating all these no. and what not.

Now moving the earth, i beleive it is impossible, for his size to do, strenght has nothing to do with it imo, i just dont think it is possible.

The force he would put on the earth to move it, would go back down as gravitational force, it wouldnt move the earth.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> DC tried to use our physics, stating all these no. and what not.
> 
> Now moving the earth, i beleive it is impossible, for his size to do, strenght has nothing to do with it imo, i just dont think it is possible.
> 
> The force he would put on the earth to move it, would go back down as gravitational force, it wouldnt move the earth.


 
Well he can even with physics in place.

No matter how you look at it this fight is for superman. Just wish you guys would see it. I used to think maybe Goku had a chance. But he doesn't. Not an Iota.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 10, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Well he can even with physics in place.
> 
> No matter how you look at it this fight is for superman. Just wish you guys would see it. I used to think maybe Goku had a chance. But he doesn't. Not an Iota.




No, going by certain logic, imo superman shouldnt be able to move the earth, full stop.

Now, why do you think superman would win so easy, they move at the same speed ( though you think diffrent) gokou can blow up planets, has a decent fighting style, can hit hard and his durable.

I  beleive he would take superman out, he could also blow up the planet, i doubt he would die from the earth being cold but superman would run out of power.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> No, going by certain logic, imo superman shouldnt be able to move the earth, full stop.


 
But he can. Canon feats count. No matter what you want.



> Now, why do you think superman would win so easy, they move at the same speed


No they dont


> ( though you think diffrent)


 
Know differently 



> gokou can blow up planets, has a decent fighting style, can hit hard and his durable.



Goku has never been shown to be able to blow up a planet. And if he could its using his ki energy. Not the same as punching a planet apart.

And even if he could. He would lose the fight as he dies. and Superman just sits there laughing.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 10, 2006)

> Goku has never been shown to be able to blow up a planet. And if he could its using his ki energy. Not the same as punching a planet apart.
> 
> And even if he could. He would lose the fight as he dies. and Superman just sits there laughing.
> _____________



No he wouldnt die instantly, he would live for about 5 minutes giving him time to find a new location.

Or 5 minutes to kill superman.

Anyway, im leaving the topic for today, im too tired for this.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> No he wouldnt die instantly, he would live for about 5 minutes giving him time to find a new location.


 

How would he live for 5 minutes... and How would he find superman if Superman is in space. 

Seriously do you guys think this through???

Goku is hardly the superhero you guys have in your mind.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Well as the series progressed they rairly killed gokou, but i still beleive they would take sups down.


Umm, killed 0 times in the pre "Z" saga.  Killed once in the saijin saga, killed once in the Cell saga.  He was actually killed more as the series progressed, just wasn't during the Buu arc.





			
				gunners said:
			
		

> When he got hit with special beam cannon, it had a lot of energy, it was sharp and it was moving fast, so naturally i would go through him, it would do the same to sups imo.


So's a bullet, but those bounce off of both Supes and Goku.





			
				gunners said:
			
		

> The two are diffrent, if i punch wodd with a force to break it, and punch someone with the same force, they wouldnt die, if i chuck a grenade at the wood, and chuck a grenade a the person, he would most likely die, do you see what im getting at.


Yes, that might be true (though they'd probably have broken bones if you hit them right), but if the first punch can shatter steel then it'll kill the person.

Destroying the Earth takes more force than destroying Goku (as of Cell saga, at least).  You've stated this yourself.  A punch that can destroy the earth has more concentrated energy than an explosion that can destroy the earth, a concentrated attack will affect Goku to a greater degree, you've also stated this yourself.

Why in the world would you expect that this punch not kill Goku?  Does Goku have some magic punch immunity that doesn't extend to other types of attacks?





			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Well if we are counting dbgt, he has


We're not, sorry.




			
				gunners said:
			
		

> No, cells attack killed because it had more energy in, as the series went on diffrent attacks had more power, vegetta planet blowing attack wouldnt have harmed gokou i doubt, cell packed alot of ki in his.


Then what you're really saying is Cell's attack was signifigantly stronger than just what is required to destroy a planet.  And as soon as you show me Goku getting hit by a planet destroying attack, or some sort of evidence that he would survive a planet destroying hit, you'll have an argument there.

Untill then, you're just making claims.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Yeh, superman would push the planet into the sun, and gokou would just stand there because he has no means of teleporting, though i doubt whether the sun would kill him.


You honestly think Goku can survive in the sun.  The same sun that has enough energy to destroy the Earth a million times over?

Never mind, I give up, you're a hopeless case too.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 10, 2006)

> How would he live for 5 minutes... and How would he find superman if Superman is in space.
> 
> Seriously do you guys think this through???
> 
> Goku is hardly the superhero you guys have in your mind.



5 minutes is how long you survive without air, for gokou it would probably be more as skilled people can survive longer without air by ajusting their heart beat.

Anyway, you contradicted your self by saying 





> how would gokou find superman in space



Going by your laws, superman should not be able to leave the battle field or hide in space now should he, so if he does that he looses by default.




> So's a bullet, but those bounce off of both Supes and Goku.



Piccolo provides more energy from a gun, i expected more.




> Yes, that might be true (though they'd probably have broken bones if you hit them right), but if the first punch can shatter steel then it'll kill the person.
> 
> Destroying the Earth takes more force than destroying Goku (as of Cell saga, at least). You've stated this yourself. A punch that can destroy the earth has more concentrated energy than an explosion that can destroy the earth, a concentrated attack will affect Goku to a greater degree, you've also stated this yourself.
> 
> Why in the world would you expect that this punch not kill Goku? Does Goku have some magic punch immunity that doesn't extend to other types of attacks?



What im saying is, cell put a high ammount of energy in to the attack to wipe out everyone, he probably knew gokou could IT people to king kai planet of something.

The explosion could have help more energy that supermans punch, let me do something.

I think lets say the attack vegeta fired at the earth was

100,000
cells power level would be now lower than 20 million.

See there is a great diffrence, seeing as he converted his power in to the explosion, that is how much went in.



> We're not, sorry.



Yah, i know, personally i hate dbgt so many things they did didnt make sense.



> Then what you're really saying is Cell's attack was signifigantly stronger than just what is required to destroy a planet. And as soon as you show me Goku getting hit by a planet destroying attack, or some sort of evidence that he would survive a planet destroying hit, you'll have an argument there.
> 
> Untill then, you're just making claims.



Ok, ill use some logic.

The final flash that vegeta hit cell with could have blown the planet up, cell took a direct hit, now gokou at the end of dbz is greater than cell so he could have taken the hit.

The problem is attacks fired at planets increase in energy over time, so potentially how much they could destroy is unknown.




> You honestly think Goku can survive in the sun. The same sun that has enough energy to destroy the Earth a million times over?
> 
> Never mind, I give up, you're a hopeless case too.



Sure, good day to you to.

Anyway, im leaving this thread for sure today.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> 5 minutes is how long you survive without air, for gokou it would probably be more as skilled people can survive longer without air by ajusting their heart beat.


 

Space has no air and more importantly no air PRESSURE.

Goku would explode from the inside out.



> Going by your laws, superman should not be able to leave the battle field or hide in space now should he, so if he does that he looses by default.


 
Stop taking my quotes out of context. I was referring to if goku COULD blow up the planet and teleport away.

But I see you guys are beyond reason.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 10, 2006)

> Space has no air and more importantly no air PRESSURE.
> 
> Goku would explode from the inside out.



Hmm, i really saw characters like freiza or bardok who were in space explode from the inside out.

Yeh, space has no air, im saying that he could survive a minimum of 5 minutes without air.



> Stop taking my quotes out of context. I was referring to if goku COULD blow up the planet and teleport away.
> 
> But I see you guys are beyond reason.



Nah, you contradicted yourself.

Anyway, this time i am truely out.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

> Hmm, i really saw characters like freiza or bardok who were in space explode from the inside out.


 
That was FREAKING FILLER

And Saiyans cant survive in space. Freeza can for w/e reason. Just like Superman, cell, and Buu.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 10, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> That was FREAKING FILLER
> 
> And Saiyans cant survive in space. Freeza can for w/e reason. Just like Superman, cell, and Buu.




Ok my bad.

No freeza can survive because his body can handle it, his body is no stronger than gokou so he would not explode, what would happen how ever is suffocate, he wouldnt die instantly like you said.

Now i will leave, please dont post a post that makes me want to reply.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Piccolo provides more energy from a gun, i expected more.


Most likely true, but we don't know how much more.  This is a moot argument anyway as it just goes to make the point that concentrated attacks are able to do more damage to one point than broad attacks with the same energy (which follows general logic).






			
				gunners said:
			
		

> What im saying is, cell put a high ammount of energy in to the attack to wipe out everyone, he probably knew gokou could IT people to king kai planet of something.
> 
> The explosion could have help more energy that supermans punch, let me do something.
> 
> ...


Got a source for those numbers referencing specific attacks?





			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Yah, i know, personally i hate dbgt so many things they did didnt make sense.


Never even seen it myself, but from what I've read I didn't miss anything.





			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Ok, ill use some logic.
> 
> The final flash that vegeta hit cell with could have blown the planet up, cell took a direct hit, now gokou at the end of dbz is greater than cell so he could have taken the hit.


Cell also got himself all but utterly disentegrated and regenerated from it.  Goku can't do that even though Goku in Buu saga is stronger.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 10, 2006)

First of all for Tousen's comment about kid buu.  nooooooooooooo

kid buu was sealed when he was first made, but bibidi couldn't seal him during the rampage of kid buu.  hence the word UNCONTROLLABLE, if he could seal him and knew he was a problem, why would he unseal him a several hundread times.  you're not making sense.  kid buu did that on his own, and it proves they are moving AT THE LEAST speed of light.  either way its more than 99 percent.



> Never even seen it myself, but from what I've read I didn't miss anything.



well story wise, yeah u didn't miss much.  but the later fights in Bebi saga was pretty good, the android 17 fight wasn't bad, and the last fight with Shenron was good too.  SSJ4 Gogeta was the shit.

as for the attacks in DBZ, i don't even see superman take on those types of attacks.  i've seen him take on explosions that could supposedly take out more than one planet, but you have to look at how bombs and a chi explosion operate.  a bomb can send an impact that destroys the planets, whereas the chi explosion disintegrates everything around the explosion and can disintegrate the planet it is used on as well.  superman hasn't taken on attacks like DBZ characters use.

with all this superman blowing up the planet crap, he is not gonna blow up a planet with all those innocent people and neither is goku.  once again the superman supporters gotta go for their cop out way to win the fight.  you can't say supes is faster because buu proved that wrong, and considering he blew up several hundred planets in a few years would say that they are faster than superman.


----------



## Id (Feb 10, 2006)

Well Im done debating with out claims. You want to prove your points start putting up scans to back up your claims.

Phasing


Surviving a Megaton Blast.



Supes catching a moon sized ship in travel and tossing it casually...


Supes analyzing and understanding genetic structures by just "glancing."


Supes instant Freeze:


----------



## Id (Feb 10, 2006)

Surviving an attack while being exposed to kryptonite.



Hitting hitting vary hard.


Holding a black hole in his hand.


High Speed fight.


Heat vision is greater then the temperature of the sun.


----------



## Id (Feb 10, 2006)

Pissed of Superman.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 10, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> kid buu was sealed when he was first made, but bibidi couldn't seal him during the rampage of kid buu.  hence the word UNCONTROLLABLE, if he could seal him and knew he was a problem, why would he unseal him a several hundread times.  you're not making sense.  kid buu did that on his own, and it proves they are moving AT THE LEAST speed of light.  either way its more than 99 percent.



What rampage? Buu never went on a rampage. Buu and Bebi-Di were the one's destorying planets one by one. Supreme Kai even said that Earth was Bebi-Di's next target. This also suggests that Bebi-Di sealed buu up between planets since he carried buu to Earth in his seal up state. Everytime Bebi-Di would lose control of Buu he would seal him up so he could rest. There was never talk of a rampage in the manga.

Also, how come Goku supporters ignore the fact that Goku and the DBZ gang get beat up by purely physical force all the time, punches, kicks, etc... If DBZ guys get hurt from being thrown through a mountain, how are they gunna withstand being punched completely through the Earth includeing the core


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 10, 2006)

Not to mention the Saiyans Stamina.


They always get tired all fast and start breathing hard. Even Cell had a stamina problem and Goku gave him a Senzu bean.


Like I said earlier. Goku cannot win.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 11, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> What rampage? Buu never went on a rampage. Buu and Bebi-Di were the one's destorying planets one by one. Supreme Kai even said that Earth was Bebi-Di's next target. This also suggests that Bebi-Di sealed buu up between planets since he carried buu to Earth in his seal up state. Everytime Bebi-Di would lose control of Buu he would seal him up so he could rest. There was never talk of a rampage in the manga.
> 
> Also, how come Goku supporters ignore the fact that Goku and the DBZ gang get beat up by purely physical force all the time, punches, kicks, etc... If DBZ guys get hurt from being thrown through a mountain, how are they gunna withstand being punched completely through the Earth includeing the core



i'm sorry, i kinda messed up on my other post.  the way buu's history went was that before bibidi started sealing him, he had already destroyed many plants by that time.  he soon got uncontrollable and bibidi started putting a spell on him to move between planets.  when they got on a planet he would release the spell, then put him back in the spell after the deed was done.  but that still doesn't negate the fact, that before buu was sealed he was destroying planets and wasn't being sealed away.

as for your other point, i already spoke on that awhile ago.  goku is fighting stronger people who can hit just as hard.  and they are not hurt every single time they are knocked through a mountain.  goku has put a smile on his face plenty of times from taking an ass kicking.  if you look at it, Goku is always fighting someone on or above his level in DBZ.  if he fights someone weaker, he doesn't even max out for the fight.  thats why the punches and kicks hurt.
look at the pic ID showed with superman fighting with his speed, who was it against, a slow ass opponent.  

scorpio, you seem to be a Wizard man right.  then why did Wizard have goku beating superman as well at just SSJ.  are they fanboys too.  u gave them much respect in the hulk thread. funny how i didn't even think about Wizard til now and they seem to agree with me that SSJ is all he needs.

now i'm not saying Goku wins cause Wizard says so.  i'm saying that at least Wizard understands as well that superman is not all over Goku as yall claim he is.  


you notice in the darkseid fight superman makes a statement about Darkseid being made vulnerable.  and in the doomsday fight superman makes a statement about doomsday not being the same cause he experienced fear.

i love when superman scans are posted, cause its fun to disect them.  and its normally the same damn pictures.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 11, 2006)

> scorpio, you seem to be a Wizard man right. then why did Wizard have goku beating superman as well at just SSJ. are they fanboys too. u gave them much respect in the hulk thread. funny how i didn't even think about Wizard til now and they seem to agree with me that SSJ is all he needs.
> 
> now i'm not saying Goku wins cause Wizard says so. i'm saying that at least Wizard understands as well that superman is not all over Goku as yall claim he is.


 
Wizard also had Magneto Singing "Im still Jenny from the block" and working as Magnetos janitor. They do what they have to sell magazines.

They know how testy dbz fans can be. It was a popularity battle. Did you even read how they said he won.

They said he had Superman in space Pinned to the moon.


THE MOON.


Goku cant go in space. Idc what wizard says.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 11, 2006)

> if you look at it, Goku is always fighting someone on or above his level in DBZ. if he fights someone weaker, he doesn't even max out for the fight. thats why the punches and kicks hurt.


Ummm... Superman holds back almost all the time he fights because he doesn't try to kill his opponents(obviously, there are exceptions where he has to go all out), so what exactly is the point in stating this?



> scorpio, you seem to be a Wizard man right. then why did Wizard have goku beating superman as well at just SSJ. are they fanboys too. u gave them much respect in the hulk thread. funny how i didn't even think about Wizard til now and they seem to agree with me that SSJ is all he needs.
> 
> now i'm not saying Goku wins cause Wizard says so. i'm saying that at least Wizard understands as well that superman is not all over Goku as yall claim he is.


I can't speak for Scorpio, but that fantasy battle with Goku/Supes in there seemed to be something they did to amuse themselves much like any other magazine does with fantasy matchups that will never happen(like ESPN did with comparing past college dynasties to USC's 2 year run), so I see no reason to take anything they write in regards to fantasy stuff as some sort of serious insight.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 11, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i'm sorry, i kinda messed up on my other post.  the way buu's history went was that before bibidi started sealing him, he had already destroyed many plants by that time.  he soon got uncontrollable and bibidi started putting a spell on him to move between planets.  when they got on a planet he would release the spell, then put him back in the spell after the deed was done.  but that still doesn't negate the fact, that before buu was sealed he was destroying planets and wasn't being sealed away.



We know very little about Buu and Bebi-Di's exploits in that past besides that they destroyed hundreds of planets in a few years and that Bebi-Di had major trouble controling Buu and had to seal him every so often. Outside of that we dont know much, Buu could have destroyed them all on his own, flying from one to the next at large multiples of light speed, or they could have flown on a ship, or they could have even teleported or something useing Bebi-Di's magic. We have no real idea. The manga was really vague on that stuff.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> as for your other point, i already spoke on that awhile ago.  goku is fighting stronger people who can hit just as hard.  and they are not hurt every single time they are knocked through a mountain.  goku has put a smile on his face plenty of times from taking an ass kicking.  if you look at it, Goku is always fighting someone on or above his level in DBZ.  if he fights someone weaker, he doesn't even max out for the fight.  thats why the punches and kicks hurt.



Can I ask where you get that DBZ people can hit as hard as Superman? Ive never seen one great strength feat in the DBZ manga. You cant just speculate that they are that strong without manga evidense and expect people to accept it.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> scorpio, you seem to be a Wizard man right.  then why did Wizard have goku beating superman as well at just SSJ.  are they fanboys too.  u gave them much respect in the hulk thread. funny how i didn't even think about Wizard til now and they seem to agree with me that SSJ is all he needs.
> 
> now i'm not saying Goku wins cause Wizard says so.  i'm saying that at least Wizard understands as well that superman is not all over Goku as yall claim he is.



I never brought up Wizard in the Hulk thread, atleast Im 90% sure I didnt because even I think that list is pretty much crap, or atleast only as respectable as any other fan made listing. Another think I think I should mention is that I believe that Goku vs Superman fight was done a long time before Superman became stronger, he was at one of his weaker states back then.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> you notice in the darkseid fight superman makes a statement about Darkseid being made vulnerable.  and in the doomsday fight superman makes a statement about doomsday not being the same cause he experienced fear.
> 
> i love when superman scans are posted, cause its fun to disect them.  and its normally the same damn pictures.



Maybe you should understand the context before you disect them though  Darkseid was not any more vulnerable then normal in that fight. The vulnerable comment ment that his arrogance and cold heartedness has made him vulnerable kinda like a pure heart makes you strong theme to most super hero stories.


----------



## Id (Feb 11, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> look at the pic ID showed with superman fighting with his speed, who was it against, a slow ass opponent.



Funny that you fail to mention that WW is a vary fast opponent yet Supes forze her, phasing a blast is a vary fast feat, Itself.

Plus you don?t acknowledge the written stated feats, only attack whatever you see that fits out of the picture to your benefit. But Ill continue to post.

Going beyond the speed of light and destroying a small moon of planet Saturn.



Orbital smash




Superman can create a psychic arena and?..



Alter reality becoming Kingdome come and One million Superman.


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## Id (Feb 11, 2006)

Heat Vision used in a higher potential (It took out an army of DD clones)




Superman know the pressure points and uses it against Batman!


He moves so fast, he becomes invisible and undetectable.


Goku could hide his ki but can he hide his Soul? If you didn’t know he has a Soul Vision….


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## acritarch (Feb 11, 2006)

Actually unknowndanex, I did say you were the only DBZ person here that wasn't a rabid fanboy BUT I did also state that you weren't backing up goku with any facts/numbers but just speculation. :amazed 

---------------------

DrunkYoshimaster is wrong with his 'rant' about what's going on. Pretty much ALL of those of us who are arguing for Superman have actually READ the DB manga... while pretty much 95% of those in this thread arguing for Goku have not read the manga. I would bet my life that at least 30 of the current 35 votes for Goku have not read the manga, and I think I would come out alive.

Heck, I've read the whole DB manga and only about 10 Superman comics (more about JLA stuff, crisis related stuff and Supes speed from reading The Flash)! But I know enough about Superman (mainly from Bullet's and other people's Superman scans) that he is much faster, stronger, more durable and thus able to kill Goku with relative ease. Heh, if I'm a fanboy for that.. shrug. DB is clearly more interesting than Supes comics which is why I read it all, but I don't overrate Goku enough that I think he would win.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 11, 2006)

> I never brought up Wizard in the Hulk thread, atleast Im 90% sure I didnt because even I think that list is pretty much crap, or atleast only as respectable as any other fan made listing. Another think I think I should mention is that I believe that Goku vs Superman fight was done a long time before Superman became stronger, he was at one of his weaker states back then.



you know what, i apologize for that one that was lucky who did that.  i thought it was you because i thought i responded after i stated that you would be the only one i respond to seeing as you at least knew of both hulk and superman instead of just rambling like the others.

[QUOTE = ID]Plus you don?t acknowledge the written stated feats, only attack whatever you see that fits out of the picture to your benefit. But Ill continue to post.[/QUOTE]

the same can be said towards you.  there are stated facts that support superman but there are also stated facts that support the person he is fighting or there are opponents who are not on his level.

[QUOTE = ShadowReplication1480]Ummm... Superman holds back almost all the time he fights because he doesn't try to kill his opponents(obviously, there are exceptions where he has to go all out), so what exactly is the point in stating this?[/QUOTE]

my point was that superman is not normally facing people on his level, which you just helped me prove whereas goku constantly fights people at his level or stronger than him.  i was making that statement in response to the question of why do punches and kicks from other characters hurt goku.


*Maybe you should understand the context before you disect them though Darkseid was not any more vulnerable then normal in that fight. The vulnerable comment ment that his arrogance and cold heartedness has made him vulnerable kinda like a pure heart makes you strong theme to most super hero stories.*

after i looked at the pic again, i see i was actually wrong in that one.  i give you that one.  one out of many.  but with the altering reality pic, i don't think that was a power he can just do, i believe that was because of the basis of the fight.  and his willpower pulled him through it.  but in a normal fight, he can't just alter reality at will.  its kinda like how Wolverine wasn't effected by the reality altering of Scarlet Witch, of course his reason was different, but thats what is like.

off of manga i can just point for Goku (based on actions of everyone)

Vegeta took a giant ape who was taller than mountains falling on him and crawls away from it still alive back in Saiyan Saga.

he can destroy planets at the least, his power could be stronger than that

Goku is strong enough and fast enough to train with 100 kilos in 100x gravity before the fight with frieza in base form.

fast enough to appear as if he is standing in one spot, and that wasn't afterimage.  i don't wanna refer to the anime, but i don't think the anime really exaggerated the realm of what DBZ characters can fight on

Vegeta trained in 450x gravity in base form before the arrival of the androids

Goku no longer suffers from heart disease

Goku has trained for a year in 150x gravity in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber

Cell in 2nd Form i might add could destroy a planet, 2nd Form of Cell is leaps and bounds below Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan, Goku, and Perfect Cell

Cell was strong enough to take a planet destroying kamehameha straight to the face by goku

Goku trained  for 7 years in Otherworld conquering SSJ3

he is stronger than Gods that have control over entire galaxies

registered 3000 kilos even though 300 kilos could destroy a planet (like i said the anime didn't step out of bounds of the characters powers)

unless he takes Superman to otherworld where the laws are different as far as Goku goes, the strongest he could consistently continue to fight superman at is SSJ2.

kid buu could destroy planets like nothing

now i will continue to say goku is faster than light speed, but i can't really prove that considering the manga shows and doesn't say which is what yall only take into account.


of course we all know superman's feats and skills.  do u agree with me when i say superman is starting to approach his PC form in which he is starting to pull new powers out his ass?  honestly i missed the soul vision and the psychic arena crap.

still i will side with goku on this one.........but that will be based on my perception of the manga/anime.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 11, 2006)

> Vegeta took a giant ape who was taller than mountains falling on him and crawls away from it still alive back in Saiyan Saga


 
And almost died.



> he can destroy planets at the least, his power could be stronger than that


 
He cant destroy planets. Other wise freeze wouldnt been so special.



> Goku is strong enough and fast enough to train with 100 kilos in 100x gravity before the fight with frieza in base form



Goku didnt have any weights O.o



Vegeta trained in 450x gravity in base form before the arrival of the androids

Goku no longer suffers from heart disease



> Goku has trained for a year in 150x gravity in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber


 
Its 10times....   10 times.




> Cell was strong enough to take a planet destroying kamehameha straight to the face by goku


 
um what... He was destroyed and had to regenerate.



unless he takes Superman to otherworld where the laws are different as far as Goku goes, the strongest he could consistently continue to fight superman at is SSJ2.




> now i will continue to say goku is faster than light speed, but i can't really prove that considering the manga shows and doesn't say which is what yall only take into account.





> still i will side with goku on this one.........but that will be based on my perception of the manga/anime.


 
I see nothing short of Superman and Goku literally fighting somewhere will show you the victor of this fight.


----------



## Supa Swag (Feb 11, 2006)

Superman. I actually remember being on another forum where this discussion took place and everyone said Goku but one guy brought the Superman knowledge and owned everyone. Hell, he even convinced everyone that the Hulk would beat both of them.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 11, 2006)

*Goku didnt have any weights O.o*

yeah he did have weights on, it was 100 kilos

*And almost died.*

he didn't almost die, and that was saiyan saga, its called advancement in time.  if i bring up superman losing to doomsday its he's so much stronger now.  well guess what goku has gotten stronger too.



> I see nothing short of Superman and Goku literally fighting somewhere will show you the victor of this fight.



well, that would show goku as the victor, i have no doubt goku would win.  just as yall have no doubt superman would win.

*Its 10times.... 10 times.*

i got my numbers from the official Diazenshyu, i'm not talkin bout king kai's planet.  i'm talkin bout the hyperbolic time chamber, which was 150x.


----------



## Chamcham Trigger (Feb 11, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> I see nothing short of Superman and Goku literally fighting somewhere will show you the victor of this fight.


I don't know about agreeing with anything else, but I can agree with this one in its own context.  Superman vs Goku is too hard of a battle to simply deduce from what they can and can't do since the universe and paying attention to physics is much different in each world.


----------



## Skida386 (Feb 11, 2006)

Now I'm not sure if this was said somewhere in the 13 pages of posts, but Goku and Superman is really difficult to decide, there are so many different variations of superman. If you wanted to be cute you could match Goku to the original superman character that was created way back when, who was basically invincible it was kinda rediculus which is why they've nerfed the crap out of him over the years. Back to my point, its hard to say because when you think about it Superman=Goku. They are the same Goku is animes/mangas Superman. They have so many similarites minus a few things. The biggest thing they have in common is gaining strentgh from the sun. Also they are both goody goody boy scouts. Its difficult to say who'd win, both are very powerful. There are enough versions of Superman though to find one that can match the rediculopity of Goku. Because quite frankly I havent seen superman destroy a planet with his laser eyes yet. 

So I'm going with Goku though this is a tough argument.


----------



## Perfect Moron (Feb 11, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> now i will continue to say goku is faster than light speed, but i can't really prove that considering the manga shows and doesn't say which is what yall only take into account.



Think about this. When goku shows he has learned IT, he dissapears and reapears a few seconds after, and Vegeta disregards it as Goku just using his speed to fool them. But Goku has kamesennin's sunglasses to show them he went to his house, and everyone accepts that as a proof, even Vegeta. Now, if goku was anywhere near lightspeed, wouldn't that prove nothing? He could've done the same thing by just running over to his house.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 11, 2006)

> i got my numbers from the official Diazenshyu, i'm not talkin bout king kai's planet. i'm talkin bout the hyperbolic time chamber, which was 150x.


 
Goku said it in the manga and in the anime. Its 10 times gravity...  Dragonball and dbz  it never changed.


----------



## Kamendex (Feb 11, 2006)

> yeah he did have weights on, it was 100 kilos



After training with Kaiosama....Gokuu no longer had need for weighted clothing...instead Kaiosama gave him more durable clothing that included no weights.



> i got my numbers from the official Diazenshyu, i'm not talkin bout king kai's planet.  i'm talkin bout the hyperbolic time chamber, which was 150x.



The manga is official...the diazenshuu's are not. It was stated in the manga that the RoSaT was 10x gravity....heck the diazenshuu's were made by BIRD STUDIOS....not AT. They have so many STATED power levels wrong in the diaz...


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 11, 2006)

go get the official Diazenshyu #7 which is considered the Bible of DBZ

10 times gravity is the minimum ammount that is set in the Room of Spirit and Time

the Time chamber is 150G when Vegeta and Trunk use it in the Cell saga
cause the conditions can be changed.  Goku changed the conditions as well afterwhile.



			
				 Perfect Moron said:
			
		

> Think about this. When goku shows he has learned IT, he dissapears and reapears a few seconds after, and Vegeta disregards it as Goku just using his speed to fool them. But Goku has kamesennin's sunglasses to show them he went to his house, and everyone accepts that as a proof, even Vegeta. Now, if goku was anywhere near lightspeed, wouldn't that prove nothing? He could've done the same thing by just running over to his house.



are you trying to say he is faster or at light speed, or are you disproving it.  i'm sorry i'm a bit confused at the conclusion you're trying to come to.

from what i see, you're saying he is that fast.  but i could be wrong.


----------



## Kamendex (Feb 11, 2006)

> go get the official Diazenshyu #7 which is considered the Bible of DBZ
> 
> 10 times gravity is the minimum ammount that is set in the Room of Spirit and Time
> 
> ...




What the hell? Did I not just say the diazenshuu is NOT official....it is NOT like the Naruto Data Book. It is not authorized by Akira Toriyama.

Now I see why you keep arguing....you DONT know how to accept facts. IT WAS STATED IN THE STUPID ASS MANGA THAT IT IS 10X gravity...AND NO Vegeta and Trunks never "changed" it...because you CANT....stop making random stupid shit up please.

And somebody actually said Dragonball characters move at the speed of light?

Modern Jets fly at an average speed of 790 km/h (the range is from 680 km/h to 900 km/h). Eresa said that it takes a jet 5 hours from where Gohan lives to get to Orange Star High School. That means Gohans house is roughly 3950 Km away from the school (Eresa said that it was over 1000 km away...so it makes sense then). Gohan with out any restraints because of his Saiyaman suit said "At this speed I can get to school in 20 minutes." So it takes Gohan at base 20 minutes to go 3950 Km....that is 197.5 Km per minute which is 11,850 Km per hour. Convert that into MPH...Gohan at base goes at 7363.50 MPH....which is actually Mach 11 speed at 20,000 feet above sea level.

7363.50 MPH is roughly .0011% the speed of light


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## Gunners (Feb 11, 2006)

> Modern Jets fly at an average speed of 790 km/h (the range is from 680 km/h to 900 km/h). Eresa said that it takes a jet 5 hours from where Gohan lives to get to Orange Star High School. That means Gohans house is roughly 3950 Km away from the school (Eresa said that it was over 1000 km away...so it makes sense then). Gohan with out any restraints because of his Saiyaman suit said "At this speed I can get to school in 20 minutes." So it takes Gohan at base 20 minutes to go 3950 Km....that is 197.5 Km per minute which is 11,850 Km per hour. Convert that into MPH...Gohan at base goes at 7363.50 MPH....which is actually Mach 11 speed at 20,000 feet above sea level.
> 
> 7363.50 MPH is roughly .0011% the speed of light



Yeh but in that situation, he didnt power up or anything, he was using his speed at natural level for him without having to power up, if he powered up im sure it would have been a lot faster anyway.

If he powered up 100x it is logical to say 11% light speed and what not.


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## Kamendex (Feb 11, 2006)

He was at his full speed in Base....now unless Gohan can get 100x stronger in SSj which is a random number you just chose.....which is umm NOT possible....that wont happen. SSj is not a multiplier. Gokuu, when he turned SSj in the Buu Saga, got less than a 3.75x boost...where as against Frieza he got roughly a 40-50x boost. It just adds power...it doesnt multiply it. Also, 100x stronger would make Gohan .11% the speed of light....Gohan would have to multiply his speed by 100,000x just so it is 10% faster than the speed of light....and Supes can STILL go faster than that.

Also, Volume 32, chapter 4 of Volume 32, page 56. 

Gokuu (referring to the RoSat) - This is supposed to be the same size as the earth. If you get too far away you might get lost and die. The worst part is, the temperature ranges from 122 to -40 (F). Also, the air pressure is only a fourth of the earths and the gravity is 10x.


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## Gunners (Feb 11, 2006)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> He was at his full speed in Base....now unless Gohan can get 100x stronger in SSj which is a random number you just chose.....which is umm NOT possible....that wont happen. SSj is not a multiplier. Gokuu, when he turned SSj in the Buu Saga, got less than a 3.75x boost...where as against Frieza he got roughly a 40-50x boost. It just adds power...it doesnt multiply it. Also, 100x stronger would make Gohan .11% the speed of light....Gohan would have to multiply his speed by 100,000x just so it is 10% faster than the speed of light....and Supes can STILL go faster than that.
> 
> Also, Volume 32, chapter 4 of Volume 32, page 56.
> 
> Gokuu (referring to the RoSat) - This is supposed to be the same size as the earth. If you get too far away you might get lost and die. The worst part is, the temperature ranges from 122 to -40 (F). Also, the air pressure is only a fourth of the earths and the gravity is 10x.




Im not saying it makes him 100 times stronger, i know it give him a boost.

But say his maximum strength in base is around 1 million or something, then mystic form could be 300 times powerful if the power level is around 300 million.

Second, can you show me a picture where it shows that he was going his maximum speed to get to school?


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 11, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Second, can you show me a picture where it shows that he was going his maximum speed to get to school?



You've got it backwards.  If you want to show that he can go faster than that (in base form or otherwise) you have to bring evidence of it forward.

Otherwise we're at a point "he can go this fast for sure, maybe faster" but the "maybe faster" is vague.  There are levels of reason (such as as his power increases he get proportionally faster) which make sense, but even those are waker proof.

Lets put it this way, say we're in the thread "EvilMoogle vs. Quicksilver" and someone rightly points out that Quicksilver can move at speeds of at least mach 1 (much higher, I know).

If I were to say "EvilMoogle ran a 7 minute mile back in his high school years, but where's your proof that he was going all out then, and I'm sure he's much faster now" what would be your reaction to it?  That's the same situation we have here.


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## acritarch (Feb 11, 2006)

RoSaT = 10x gravity. Not modifyable. NUMEROUS manga scans of this have been posted. THIS IS NOT ARGUABLE.

Goku traveling to namek = 5? days of sub 100x gravity (something of around 10x, 40x and 75x I think.. need to check manga again), 100x gravity one day w/ no weights, one day of rest. And he almost died.

Goku on kai's planet = 2 tons base form, 40 tons SSJ. Whatever gravity they have is irrelevent since we are talking about WEIGHTS and not masses.

Supes = much MUCH _much_ _MUCH_ *much* *MUCH* stronger.


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## Perfect Moron (Feb 11, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> are you trying to say he is faster or at light speed, or are you disproving it.  i'm sorry i'm a bit confused at the conclusion you're trying to come to.
> 
> from what i see, you're saying he is that fast.  but i could be wrong.



Really, I don't think my English is that bad. Let's try this again.

Goku uses IT to go Kamesennin's house and back in a few seconds, taking his sunglasses to prove he actually went there. Vegeta claims Goku just used his speed to dissapear, but after seeing the sunglasses, everyone has to accept he can indeed teleport, implying there's no other way Goku could have gone all the way to Kamesennin's house and back, in such a short time. Now, someone with lightspeed con go 8 times around the Earth in a second. Conclusion? Goku is nowhere near lightspeed.

Hope that clears it up.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 12, 2006)

thanks for clearing that up, it wasn't the english i just was confused with your conclusion.



> RoSaT = 10x gravity. Not modifyable. NUMEROUS manga scans of this have been posted. THIS IS NOT ARGUABLE.
> 
> Goku traveling to namek = 5? days of sub 100x gravity (something of around 10x, 40x and 75x I think.. need to check manga again), 100x gravity one day w/ no weights, one day of rest. And he almost died.
> 
> ...



well you should say 40 tons at the least for SSJ considering he did that like nothing.

[QUOTE = Kamendex]What the hell? Did I not just say the diazenshuu is NOT official....it is NOT like the Naruto Data Book. It is not authorized by Akira Toriyama.

Now I see why you keep arguing....you DONT know how to accept facts. IT WAS STATED IN THE STUPID ASS MANGA THAT IT IS 10X gravity...AND NO Vegeta and Trunks never "changed" it...because you CANT....stop making random stupid shit up please.

And somebody actually said Dragonball characters move at the speed of light?

Modern Jets fly at an average speed of 790 km/h (the range is from 680 km/h to 900 km/h). Eresa said that it takes a jet 5 hours from where Gohan lives to get to Orange Star High School. That means Gohans house is roughly 3950 Km away from the school (Eresa said that it was over 1000 km away...so it makes sense then). Gohan with out any restraints because of his Saiyaman suit said "At this speed I can get to school in 20 minutes." So it takes Gohan at base 20 minutes to go 3950 Km....that is 197.5 Km per minute which is 11,850 Km per hour. Convert that into MPH...Gohan at base goes at 7363.50 MPH....which is actually Mach 11 speed at 20,000 feet above sea level.

7363.50 MPH is roughly .0011% the speed of light[/QUOTE]

well i posted before i saw what you put, but akira did authorize for the whole thing.  which is why he is in the first diazenshyu.  which is why it is called the Bible of DBZ, whether you like or not.  i don't think akira would have interviews for the book if he didn't authorized it, that just doesn't make sense.  and the timeline in the Daizenshyu was composed by Toriyama himself.  he did the foreword as well. so stop whining all the damn time it was authorized.

about your speed, back to what i said a while ago about the saiyan saga.

snake way = 1,000,000km, Goku got to kai's planet in 6 months meaning Goku was at 228.31 km/h in base form before training

king kai predicted two days for him to return to earth after training
so thats 1,000,000km in 48 hours for Goku in base form if he took the winding road of snake way.  1,000,000/48 = 20,833 km/h in base form

1 km = 0.62 miles which means goku was predicted to travel at 12,916mph in base form during the saiyan saga.  

big difference from the number you had gohan at in the buu saga, meaning he was going significantly slower than his true base speed.

don't use jets in trying to compare, some things are just there.  i'm sure by buu he was LEAPS AND LEAPS AND LEAPS AND BOUNDS ahead of that.


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## Kamendex (Feb 12, 2006)

You dont seem to look at things closely do you.....sure Snakeway could be 1,000,000 Km....the reason Gokuu took so long the first time was because he went the ENTIRE length.....on his way back....Gokuu took GIANT jumps and he FLEW for a little bit....he didnt go the entire length....imagine how much he skipped.

I can run around an an entire football field to get to the other side and itll prolly take me a few minutes....or I can run right through the field and it would take less than 10 seconds. And both times I could've been going the same speed.

And you seem to forget...the line was "Snakeway is *RUMORED* to be 1,000,000 km."


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## Viciousness (Feb 12, 2006)

I said I'd be back with pics, sorry it took so long guys, been foolin with  this new ipod and rearrangin my room since its bad out. but here goes.



			
				braindx said:
			
		

> Actually unknowndanex, I did say you were the only DBZ person here that wasn't a rabid fanboy



Since u said that before I showed up I hope it doesnt apply to me as well. There was a time when I accepted supes would win until I learned for myself Bullet and others were biased, sided with DC no matter the opponent, and not giving a fair interpratation of the situation. 



			
				braindx said:
			
		

> DrunkYoshimaster is wrong with his 'rant' about what's going on. Pretty much ALL of those of us who are arguing for Superman have actually READ the DB manga... while pretty much 95% of those in this thread arguing for Goku have not read the manga. I would bet my life that at least 30 of the current 35 votes for Goku have not read the manga, and I think I would come out alive.



 Im not sure what 'ALL' you mean have read the manga though im sure some like scorpio and you have (in fact either you or someone with a similar name used to be on planet namek in early 2000 if I recollect right). But then theres those like Bullet who think filler episodes are made in America. I'd say its more like 50% of you havent or just saw the anime and skimmed the manga. 

As for Supes winning this fight I think since youve onl read 10 chapters you're probably how I used to be, and have let the exxaggerations and pictures posted of the combined inconsistencies of Post Crisis Supes as he is portrayed by different artists convince you there is no way he could lose this fight.
I hope at least my post will remind you of exactly what Goku and co are capable, and how much several supes supporters are downplaying his power.




			
				Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> I have the manga in front of me and there was more then 2 frames, there was 4 *pages* before you see that the moon was destroyed after Roshi fired the blast.



4 pages now?
I see how you could get that with fuzzy math using these 4 pages:


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But really all you need are the middle 2 pages to tell he's fired the blast and while everyone on earth is still affected by his initial shooting of the beam, the moon has been destroyed. Youd have to be in denial to say those two pages took any more than 3 seconds tops.

anyway theres no doubting these 2 blasts were well off the planet in under a second, and in gohans case a second after it passed the resistance of cell's blast that wouldve destroyed the planet otherwise.

SSJ2 Gohan:

CLICK HERE 
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Vegeta's Final Flash

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				Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Cell threatened to blow up the EARTH!! not the solar system. Get it right.



Either you think Im referring to a different page or you have a different translation than me. I was so confident this was in the original trans I read I went and dug up the cd I had burned it to.

Here's what * Super Perfect Cell* said: Link removed




			
				Id said:
			
		

> Heat Vision used in a higher potential (It took out an army of DD clones)



oh since were doing supes feats, lets remember what weak old nappa was capable of way back when:

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> Superman know the pressure points and uses it against Batman!



Because batman's weaker than him, slower than him, and Supes didnt want to kill him. Its going to take alot more effort for SUpes to aim for Goku's pressure points in combat, assuming he can even get through the electric ki shield surrounding him in SSJ2 and 3, but Ill assume it doesnt fall under the category of magic supes is vulnerable to and that saiyajin have the same pressure points.



> He moves so fast, he becomes invisible and undetectable.



Even Freeza moved so fast those much weaker than him couldnt see him, and those were people stronger than the Ginyu Tokusentai, and were used to seeing inasanely fast combat speeds. Imagine how much faster they are by the end of the series.

Heres what freeza was capable of, and Goku's avoiding of his blasts doesnt look too much different from what Supes is doing. Imagine what thatd look like to the common eye if we could even see it, instead of seeing it through the eyes of freeza:

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> Goku could hide his ki but can he hide his Soul? If you didnt know he has a Soul Vision.



Umm Goku doesnt need to hide his ki from Superman since supes cant detect it anyway. Do you realize how close Supes is to that guy? do you realize thats probably another bogus power made up by DC comic writer #382 he's probably only used it once and it wouldnt even be remembered by DC as one of post crisis supes abilities. But he can have it as useless as it is. Goku could be a million miles away firing off blasts and know where supes is, while Superman will only know where Goku is if hes hiding behind the wall infront of him...



			
				Id said:
			
		

> Holding a black hole in his hand.



We have no idea what physics theyre using there. Even Godzilla has deflected a Micro Black hole before, its very likely they think of it in the common sci-fi way as being small and powerful but not enough to suck in the earth like a real black hole



> Heat vision is greater then the temperature of the sun.



maybe Im just missing where it says that its greater due to the text size, but all I see is that its derived from the suns power.



			
				Kamendex said:
			
		

> You dont seem to look at things closely do you.....sure Snakeway could be 1,000,000 Km....the reason Gokuu took so long the first time was because he went the ENTIRE length.....on his way back....Gokuu took GIANT jumps and he FLEW for a little bit....he didnt go the entire length....imagine how much he skipped.



yay if it isnt my favorite battledomes poster! Maybe someday Ill become as great at personal attacks asyou but until then I guess guess Ill just do me.

Anyway if everyone thinks snake way is 1 million kilometers and the winding is only so much then wouldnt that account for Kaio-sama's 2 day estimate for goku? Goku did it faster than 2 days because as they say the saiyajin arrive the next day and he was shortcutting it, but Kaiosama calculated Goku taking Snake way in 2 days, meaning UnkowndaneZ's math is right:


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Dont forget Snake way winds back and forth so if it were a straight shot Goku could do it faster, his real speed was probably higher than what unknowndanex calculated linearly. Gohan probably wanted to limit the destruction caused and went like mach 120 in the countryside then slowed to below mach for the city. Also how can you doubt the million kilometwr thing, the mangaka gave it as a reference obviously so we can have an idea of how much Goku grows to make it back in a day as opposed to 6months as first. Toriyama doesnt think of it as less than 1million kilometers.

anyway Ill post buu saga pics next since Gokus so much better by the end of the series.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 12, 2006)

um, when goku skipped snakeway, he got back to earth in a day.  king kai predicted two days thinking he was gonna run snakeway.  

it appears there is a lot of underestimating going on here as far as DBZ is concerned.  especially with all these manga pics of things people said was not in the manga.

my speed calculations are correct, and the only way they are wrong is only by increasing the speed i calculated, mine's was a bare minimum of how fast goku was.  like i mentioned before, with weights on, and not normal charged up.  and goku's clothing is normally 100kilos.  his boots are 20 kilos each.

as for your gohan calculation, that was wrong too.  gohan's high school is 1,000km away from his house.  so gohan saying he would take 20 minutes is actually going 50 km/min, which is 3000 km/hr, which is 1860 mph.  that is way lower than goku's base speed in saiyan saga.  so that point was really for nothing, not to mention bad calculating on your part.  you should stop bringin up jets and mach speed all the time, cause i believe u did that in another goku thread.  if you knew the numbers from DBZ, which you obviously don't, you would get better numbers that are significantly higher than you think.  leading you to underestimate the hell out of their speed.  and don't talk about the what the manga says cause it seems when Superman comes up you forget a lot of things from the manga that favors goku like what drunkenyoshimaster put above.

i guess DY wanted to respond to the superman pics.  my sentiments exactly but its like a broken record coming from me with these inconsistent powers superman has.  especially with that psychic battlefield bulls*** and soul vision.  i normally stick with the powers DC established superman with which were..........

super-strength, superspeed, flight, super and freeze breath, x-ray, heat, telescopic, and microscopic visions, super hearing, GREAT durability. and the yellow sun maximizes his performance in those abilities.  

thats why i normally could care less about the crazy powers that writers make up out of nowhere which i talked about above because they are inconsistent, and something even DC writers forgot he did.  i could live with the soul vision, but as yall can see, that psychic battlefield kinda made me mad.


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## Tousenz (Feb 12, 2006)

So your basically saying his canon feats and powers dont count because he only had to use it once?


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## unknowndanex (Feb 12, 2006)

u took me the wrong way (sorry if i wasn't clear). i never said they don't count in the battledome.  i said i normally refer to those powers when i think of superman, cause that is what DC established for him, and that is what is used consistently.

like when u think of Hulk, you think of strength, regeneration, durabiltiy, great stamina, and great leaping ability, with great reflexes.  and gets stronger as he gets mad.

but hulk can perceive mystical perceptions, can breathe underwater, gets stronger from other things (as savage hulk, silver surfer found out that he got stronger and stronger from fear of dying without having bruce banner).


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## Viciousness (Feb 12, 2006)

Ahh now here the real fun starts. Just what went on in the Buu saga.



			
				Bullet said:
			
		

> They can destroy a planet, just not in the way you're thinking. They can't oneshot a planet with one small "KI" blasts, they force there charged blasts through the planet towards the core or at least damage it bad enough that it's it'll explode.



when is this? The Freeza Saga. We're talking about Goku from the Buu saga here now. Do you know how much they had to hold back on their blast power to keep from destroying the world? and nothing to do with aiming at the core:

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Let's get to feats. Goku causing the entire earth to shake by transforming (and for those who dont know Tenshinhan who feels it has moved to solitude far away from where the rest of the characters live):
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and for those who say Goku couldnt beat Fat Buu, here's what SSJ3 Goku really beleived (stated after all the other comments he made so its obviously the truth and not incentive to get Piccolo to train the kids):
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People always bring up Gotenks speed saying he went around the world in 29 minutes which is nothing compared to Supes.
Well first off as Ive said its always been obvious how much faster DBZ fighters combat speed is than their running/flying speed when travelling since the early bodukai's. But Gotenks is alot faster than you think. We see at least 5 laps at over twice the circumference of earth each, and hes not even done, since we dont know how many he did before he took a nap. He told Piccolo he went around a lot of times so it couldve easily been 1000 laps before he was through who knows. All we know is he probably intended to stay gone till his fusion was almost up to f with piccolo was usual:

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Super Buu was willing to fly to different planets to catch goku if necessary. This was before he learned Kaiobito's teleportation. if he wasnt something near light speed then were talking years here which is pretty unlikely:

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People think the ki blasts arent capable of travelling light speed? Super Buu managed to send blasts to every corner of the globe in a matter of seconds. Dodging one light speed blast is hard enough, but can you imagine supes dodging billions? Besides Superman cant even put up a ki shield so who knows how much more he'll have to absorb with his body:

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This one is big. The voleyball exchange with Buu shows the speed of fighting in which they obliterate Kami's Lookout in a single panel of fighting everywhere, it shows how powerful their punching power really is as Buu causes a gigantic meteor sized crater by getting punched into the ground, then it shows that Piccolo felt Gotenks blasts couldve destroyed the planet without aiming at the ground or anything:
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				braindx said:
			
		

> Vegeta's suicide explosion using all his energy (after the Cell saga no less), and a majority of other of the strongest attacks of characters don't even do major damage to the EARTH. The only way the Saiyans and other characters are blowing up planets are if they specifically shoot at the planets' core which takes EXPONENTIALLY less energy than litereally blowing it up from the outside in (which someone already stated).



You do realize that they can control the concentration of their blasts and what not. It seems obvious to me Vegeta wouldve conctntrated his blast into a sphere large enough to just do damage to the surrounding area and Buu, he was off the ground too. Its made especially clear when later Gohan says Super Buu's self destruct couldve blown up earth if he was trying to be fast enough to hit him with it:

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Another argument Ive heard is people say Goku isnt comparable to Gotenks and that when Toriyama said Super Gotenks was only slightly stronger than Goku and ppl wouldnt be able to tell a difference he meant SSJ Gotenks. One thing you dont realize is Gotenks only refers to himself as Super Gotenks after he has learned SSJ3 and only to that form. Not to mention Super Buu reveals to Gohan that the only person stronger than himself is Gohan, so he was just playing with Gotenks till he arrived. Gotenks couldnt permanantly destroy him just like Goku said he himself couldnt. Gotenks was cocky, just like how he wanted to beat fat buu in base form, and his last attack wouldnt have done more than the galactic donut or ghost kamikaze, both of which were supposed to be special atacks to kill buu:

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Then there's the blast speed issue. It should be already resolved, but just incase, here is Cell batting Gohans blast back at him, through the earth and out through the other side into space in an instant. I know they can throw slower beams sometimes but with all the blast pics Ive shown it should be obvious these are often light speed blasts theyre dodging, just like theyd dodge a bum rush from supes:

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Next lets see, people argue that Goku cant use the Kienzan (Destructo Disc) on Superman or people much stronger than him for whatever reason. Here's him in base form, splitting Super Buu with Gotenks absorbed in half, imagine him Shunkan Idou (teleporting) to an unsuspecting supes, and firing this to his back:

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Alright this is the last one. People love to Goku couldnt hold SSJ3 on earth at all, Despite him fighting Kid Buu in it for a good while then only falling out because he attempted to charge fully, and he hadnt adapted to being able to do it. Since we're using the most recent forms of each character and Goku has had ten years of being back on earth to learn Im sure he's mastered it by the end of the series as well if not better than he got it in the afterlife. Besides Bulma reveals hes been training for 10 years straight. And its obviously for his rematch with Buu, since he probably wanted to beat him with his own power this time instead of using the Genki Dama with all of earths help. By the end of the series I wouldnt be surprised if he surpassed Chu Gohan, and he plans on training Uub to be as powerful as Kid Buu it seems, and then fighting him after.

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I guess Ive learned from bullet you can awe people more with pics than great arguments, so Ive decided to try doing both, so let's see if this changes anyones opinions, Also if the pics load too slow for people Ive zipped them and put them in folders that go in order of their posting for the most part here:

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## Viciousness (Feb 12, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> So your basically saying his canon feats and powers dont count because he only had to use it once?



more like it's because dc comics doesnt recognize half the one timers like travelling to saturn in four minutes when they specifically say his speed just below light but not above it during serious pages.Some writers are liable to put anything in there, and the majority of DC writers dont recognize Supes of being capable of that, so those powers are no where to be found next time theyd come in handy. The standard DC Superman Post Crisis is no where near the combination of these miscelaneous one time feats. Hell Id be surprised if Superman Prime's speed was stated to be 10xlight or whatever it takes to get to saturn in 4 minutes. Things like that are obviously outliers and errors, and that junk belongs in Pre-crisis.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 12, 2006)

good gosh DrunkenYoshimaster...............

well off of those pics, and the great Gotenks pics, are we done with the speed issue?  are we done talkin bout jets and mach speeds?

are we done talkin bout planet and solar system destroying attacks?

are we done talkin bout superman beating goku with one punch?

cause if we're not, then its official, you're fanboys.  these pics have basically proved every point me and DrunkenYoshimaster have made.  

this shows Goku can and would beat superman and that Goku supporters can come with proof.  Even without writers having to input captions into the picture for us to say how fast they are.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 12, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> I said I'd be back with pics, sorry it took so long guys, been foolin with  this new ipod and rearrangin my room since its bad out. but here goes.



Well I definatly respect you more for bringing actual scans and examples, it really makes your argument more crediable. Still dissagree with it  but I respect your position more.




			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> 4 pages now?
> I see how you could get that with fuzzy math using these 4 pages:
> 
> 
> ...



But it was still several pages more before we see that it was the moon that was targeted and not Goku. It could have been destroyed at any time between when it was fired and when people realized it was gone. After all the explosion would make no sound through space so no one would notice the explosion.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> anyway theres no doubting these 2 blasts were well off the planet in under a second, and in gohans case a second after it passed the resistance of cell's blast that wouldve destroyed the planet otherwise.
> 
> SSJ2 Gohan:
> 
> ...



I still say its pretty much impossible to tell the time it takes for the beams to get that far, the only real indication is that the dust hadnt settled yet but it takes dusk quite some time to settle, in fact in the second picture Cell had the time to say "Oh no!" before the beam even reached him from already being fired from Veginta. However, assumeing the beams did only take a couple seconds to reach outerspace, space starts only about 100 km up, although both beams did go considerable past that mark and I would estimate them at maybe about the distance a satilite would orbit at ~30,000 km up. Thats still considerable slower then the speed of light. However no matter how you calculate it there are waaay to many assumptions to be made to get a good read on the speed at which they move.




			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Either you think Im referring to a different page or you have a different translation than me. I was so confident this was in the original trans I read I went and dug up the cd I had burned it to.
> 
> Here's what * Super Perfect Cell* said: Link removed



Ok, thanks for clearing that up, I thought you were refering to the self destruct thing or one of the other times Cell threatened to blow up the planet with a full powered Kamehameha. However I think Cell was either refering to the fact that he had the power to destroy the solar system now (possible cause the sun to supernova or bit by bit) or he was just blowing smoke out of his ears and was bluffing. Why do I think this? Well I will explain. Before Cell revived and got his power boost his *full power* Kamehameha was said to be able to blow upt he Earth* (This is compounded when goku's full powered Kamehameha was said to be able to blow up the Earth aswell). By my simple bare minimum calculations (your welcome to check them, I did them fast) the solar system is _at the very least_ more then 70,000,000,000,000 times bigger then the Earth. So unless you believe that Cell got a power bost of over 70 TRILLION times his power before then that feat just dosnt make sense  Atleast Superman's feats are backed up by him actually doing them lol



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Even Freeza moved so fast those much weaker than him couldnt see him, and those were people stronger than the Ginyu Tokusentai, and were used to seeing inasanely fast combat speeds. Imagine how much faster they are by the end of the series.
> 
> Heres what freeza was capable of, and Goku's avoiding of his blasts doesnt look too much different from what Supes is doing. Imagine what thatd look like to the common eye if we could even see it, instead of seeing it through the eyes of freeza:
> 
> ...



There is a big difference between what Frieza is doing (moveing faster then their eyes could see) and what superman does by turning invisible. Frieza just moves faster then his enemies brains can process. Superman vibrates his molecules so fast (near the speed of light) that even photons pass right through him and you are literally unable to see him because he reflects no light what so ever. HUGE difference.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Gohan probably wanted to limit the destruction caused and went like mach 120 in the countryside then slowed to below mach for the city.



Its pretty much well established that DBZ people dont make sonic booms or destruction to their enviroment when they move at super speeds. People have theorized as to why this is, but Toriyama didnt explain it so we will never know for sure. While I agree that it wasnt his absolute max speed I doubt he was holding back on account of the enviroment around him.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 12, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Let's get to feats. Goku causing the entire earth to shake by transforming (and for those who dont know Tenshinhan who feels it has moved to solitude far away from where the rest of the characters live):
> Link removed



Superman has made the entire planet shake with his punches. He has heated up the entire planet with his heat vision. Heck, he has powered planet moveing engines with his heat vision when he was weakend by a red sun.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> People always bring up Gotenks speed saying he went around the world in 29 minutes which is nothing compared to Supes.
> Well first off as Ive said its always been obvious how much faster DBZ fighters combat speed is than their running/flying speed when travelling since the early bodukai's. But Gotenks is alot faster than you think. We see at least 5 laps at over twice the circumference of earth each, and hes not even done, since we dont know how many he did before he took a nap. He told Piccolo he went around a lot of times so it couldve easily been 1000 laps before he was through who knows. All we know is he probably intended to stay gone till his fusion was almost up to f with piccolo was usual:
> 
> Link removed
> ...



Could have done 1000 laps, or could have just dont the 5-6. We also have no idea how long the nap is or if he even took a nap (it wasnt shown and that really sounds like something the Cocky Gotenks would say to make fun of Piccolo.) Could be a feat waaaay over light speed, or could be a feat waaaay under light speed, who knows.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Then there's the blast speed issue. It should be already resolved, but just incase, here is Cell batting Gohans blast back at him, through the earth and out through the other side into space in an instant. I know they can throw slower beams sometimes but with all the blast pics Ive shown it should be obvious these are often light speed blasts theyre dodging, just like theyd dodge a bum rush from supes:
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed



Look at the trajectory of the blast, it did not go completely through the Earth, at most it went through a small portion of it. Also I will again state that its impossible to tell that it happened in an "instant". Few seconds sure, but instant who knows.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Next lets see, people argue that Goku cant use the Kienzan (Destructo Disc) on Superman or people much stronger than him for whatever reason. Here's him in base form, splitting Super Buu with Gotenks absorbed in half, imagine him Shunkan Idou (teleporting) to an unsuspecting supes, and firing this to his back:
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed



Buu's body was extremely easy to cut/smash/break, he just healed back together all the time. Cutting Buu is not a great feat at all, I wouldnt have been surprised if Krillian could have done it. Buu's body breaks from punches and small blasts, Superman's can take a supernove. Are you really trying to compare the two???


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## unknowndanex (Feb 12, 2006)

now its ridiculous.  ok, you basically still doubt Goku's feats where here's comparisons.

i keep getting this pic of superman to be wowed at that yall call phasing even though i see to faint superman's on the side.  and this is supposed to be proof of his speed.


and here is goku's feat.  goku is dodging multiple blasts whereas superman is dodging (or "phasing") one blasts, i would have to say goku has the better showing here.
Deathprod - Deathprod
Link removed


here is proof that no one wants to comment on for superman's speed in fighting against a slow ass opponent


yet here's is this frieza pic of piccolo, gohan, and krillin doin this and frieza dodging. looks like a more impressive feat.
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

now here is the orbital smash picture



and here is gotenks circling the earth 5 times in one frame:  seems like the better feat once again
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

superman vibrating;  

Goku can just use IT, it doesn't matter if he's ITing somewhere on earth.  it didn't take him long to do it for roshi's house.  he didn't have to stick some fingers on his head and concentrate when he did it to cell.

now for you to neglect those pics, and not neglect the superman pics which are less impressive says a lot.  

anyone walking by and not knowing who goku is would say that those pics i compared are more impressive than those superman ones.  and thats not speculation, its the truth.


----------



## konflikti (Feb 12, 2006)

Nice work with the scans, much appreciated. I've tried to stick to the speed issue, since I feel like it's the most pressing one. Sorry for dissecting your post like that.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Ahh now here the real fun starts. Just what went on in the Buu saga.
> 
> People always bring up Gotenks speed saying he went around the world in 29 minutes which is nothing compared to Supes.
> Well first off as Ive said its always been obvious how much faster DBZ fighters combat speed is than their running/flying speed when travelling since the early bodukai's. But Gotenks is alot faster than you think. We see at least 5 laps at over twice the circumference of earth each, and hes not even done, since we dont know how many he did before he took a nap. He told Piccolo he went around a lot of times so it couldve easily been 1000 laps before he was through who knows. All we know is he probably intended to stay gone till his fusion was almost up to f with piccolo was usual:
> ...



Even if went around the world 1000 times, he's still way below lightspeed.
(Light-speed would do ~12000 laps in 29 minutes, with ten min nap ~8000 laps, with the basic circumference)



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Super Buu was willing to fly to different planets to catch goku if necessary. This was before he learned Kaiobito's teleportation. if he wasnt something near light speed then were talking years here which is pretty unlikely:
> 
> Link removed



Not much of evidence in my opinion. The basic "You can run, but you cannot hide" line.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> People think the ki blasts arent capable of travelling light speed? Super Buu managed to send blasts to every corner of the globe in a matter of seconds. Dodging one light speed blast is hard enough, but can you imagine supes dodging billions? Besides Superman cant even put up a ki shield so who knows how much more he'll have to absorb with his body:
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



Oh come on. Check page 30. Normal people notice and run away from them. (Lower left corner of first frame)



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> You do realize that they can control the concentration of their blasts and what not. It seems obvious to me Vegeta wouldve conctntrated his blast into a sphere large enough to just do damage to the surrounding area and Buu, he was off the ground too. Its made especially clear when later Gohan says Super Buu's self destruct couldve blown up earth if he was trying to be fast enough to hit him with it:
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



I think it's pretty clear that he just states that Buu probably knew that it wouldn't catch him. Btw, if you want to catch the inconsistancy in DBZ and the Akiras general care about facts, see 411306.gif and notice how small DBZ Earth is.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Then there's the blast speed issue. It should be already resolved, but just incase, here is Cell batting Gohans blast back at him, through the earth and out through the other side into space in an instant. I know they can throw slower beams sometimes but with all the blast pics Ive shown it should be obvious these are often light speed blasts theyre dodging, just like theyd dodge a bum rush from supes:
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed



Instant that it takes to check the next frame. Artists do picture stuff that isn't in perfect sync with what is just happening for 'amazing stuff' points.

I still don't agree that Akira ever kept any consistency with the speed or the power of the blast in DBZ. Or speed in general. But that's my opinion and it really doesn't help judging which one is the winner.





> i keep getting this pic of superman to be wowed at that yall call phasing even though i see to faint superman's on the side. and this is supposed to be proof of his speed.
> 
> 
> and here is goku's feat. goku is dodging multiple blasts whereas superman is dodging (or "phasing") one blasts, i would have to say goku has the better showing here.
> ...


The difference is that Goku dodges, Supes doesn't need to. He is completely un-touchable while vibrating.


----------



## Viciousness (Feb 12, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Well I definatly respect you more for bringing actual scans and examples, it really makes your argument more crediable. Still dissagree with it  but I respect your position more.


I appreciate that




> But it was still several pages more before we see that it was the moon that was targeted and not Goku. It could have been destroyed at any time between when it was fired and when people realized it was gone. After all the explosion would make no sound through space so no one would notice the explosion.



Not to be rude but how can you not think that that flash of light on the page after Kamesennin fires it is supposed to represent a huge explosion? every one else was just so blown back by it and covering their faces that they couldnt see what it was that blew up. Its more or less like were seeing it through their eyes but that explosion was definately sudden, not when everyone notices that the moons gone but back when we see that flash of light in the dark frame.




> I still say its pretty much impossible to tell the time it takes for the beams to get that far, the only real indication is that the dust hadnt settled yet but it takes dusk quite some time to settle, in fact in the second picture Cell had the time to say "Oh no!" before the beam even reached him from already being fired from Veginta. However, assumeing the beams did only take a couple seconds to reach outerspace, space starts only about 100 km up, although both beams did go considerable past that mark and I would estimate them at maybe about the distance a satilite would orbit at ~30,000 km up. Thats still considerable slower then the speed of light. However no matter how you calculate it there are waaay to many assumptions to be made to get a good read on the speed at which they move.




I can see how u might say it mght be impossible to tell exactly how many fractions of a second it took. But if you really think it took more than a couple seconds tops to get from cell to where it is in space in the panel, youre in denial, and thats being generous. In the gohan pic, the frame before its in space its just hitting cell, next frame the beam is way off in space so that it looks more like a star than a stream, then the frame after gohan is still in the pose he threw it in, and still two frames later cell is realizing how damaged he is and in shock making noises.

As for the Final Flash pic the dust is still spiked up in the next frame and doesnt look like its rounded and settling for like 3 more frames. besides in the frame where its in space you see a huge explosion on earth and the beam is in space, pretty far out there too. Looks like it was intended to convey light speed to me.



> Ok, thanks for clearing that up, I thought you were refering to the self destruct thing or one of the other times Cell threatened to blow up the planet with a full powered Kamehameha. However I think Cell was either refering to the fact that he had the power to destroy the solar system now (possible cause the sun to supernova or bit by bit) or he was just blowing smoke out of his ears and was bluffing. Why do I think this? Well I will explain. Before Cell revived and got his power boost his *full power* Kamehameha was said to be able to blow upt he Earth* (This is compounded when goku's full powered Kamehameha was said to be able to blow up the Earth aswell). By my simple bare minimum calculations (your welcome to check them, I did them fast) the solar system is _at the very least_ more then 70,000,000,000,000 times bigger then the Earth. So unless you believe that Cell got a power bost of over 70 TRILLION times his power before then that feat just dosnt make sense  Atleast Superman's feats are backed up by him actually doing them lol



His biggest punching power feat that bullet loves to repost when we talk about DB characters blowing up planets, is Supes telling some guy that that punch he almost hit him with in anger couldve split the moon. That sounds like it could easily be an obvious exxageration there, hes in anger and talking to someone whos a peon to him. I dont see how you could give him the benefit of the doubt there and not beleive Cell when its far less likely he's exxagerating in the context and not think youre being fanboyish. And I suppose its possible he meant he had enough energy in that one blast to destroy all the planets and the sun if they were lined up like Sephiroths ultimate attack or something but even that is significantly more than what Supes and his opponents are capable.





> Its pretty much well established that DBZ people dont make sonic booms or destruction to their enviroment when they move at super speeds. People have theorized as to why this is, but Toriyama didnt explain it so we will never know for sure. While I agree that it wasnt his absolute max speed I doubt he was holding back on account of the enviroment around him.



Im hard pressed to remember them moving top speed in residential areas late in the series except after most of the earth has been killed or destroyed. I dont think thered be a need to show sonic booms in a rural place. But even so its apparent he cant be going anywhere near top speed if Goku's speed during the Saiyajin saga was above that.



			
				Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Superman has made the entire planet shake with his punches. He has heated up the entire planet with his heat vision. Heck, he has powered planet moveing engines with his heat vision when he was weakend by a red sun.


I remember the heat the world thing and it really isnt as significant as blowing up the world or killing 1/10th of the earth with a stay blast, It shows great control, but Id have to say shaking the world without touching it is more significant.and a planet busting blast would have more of an effect than that. Honestly Id say its because of how his eyes are designed, shonron could heat the earth and hes weaker then goku since he couldnt even kill the saiyajin.




> Could have done 1000 laps, or could have just dont the 5-6. We also have no idea how long the nap is or if he even took a nap (it wasnt shown and that really sounds like something the Cocky Gotenks would say to make fun of Piccolo.) Could be a feat waaaay over light speed, or could be a feat waaaay under light speed, who knows.



exactly what I said, we dont know, but it proves people are trying to downplay him saying he did just a lap and he probably did more than was shown




> Look at the trajectory of the blast, it did not go completely through the Earth, at most it went through a small portion of it. Also I will again state that its impossible to tell that it happened in an "instant". Few seconds sure, but instant who knows.



once again if you look at the page I dont see how you could really think this took less than 2 seconds tops without being in denial. An explosion  is still spiking from where it came out on the other side as you see the blast leaving earth like a distant memory. Its just a cut over from the last fram and not meant to represent a great deal of time, and just below that ddnde and mrs statan are still ducking.




> Buu's body was extremely easy to cut/smash/break, he just healed back together all the time. Cutting Buu is not a great feat at all, I wouldnt have been surprised if Krillian could have done it. Buu's body breaks from punches and small blasts, Superman's can take a supernove. Are you really trying to compare the two???


his body definately seemed more dense as he absorbed more people. Gohan's punches at this point were knocking the stuffing out of him but rarely slicing through him. Unlike say Goku with kid buu. Im pretty sure the Kienzan would work on an opponent without a real charging ki aura to boot. and this is a cutting attack not an explosion filled with heat/


----------



## konflikti (Feb 12, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> I appreciate that
> His biggest punching power feat that bullet loves to repost when we talk about DB characters blowing up planets, is Supes telling some guy that that punch he almost hit him with in anger couldve split the moon. That sounds like it could easily be an obvious exxageration there, hes in anger and talking to someone whos a peon to him. I dont see how you could give him the benefit of the doubt there and not beleive Cell when its far less likely he's exxagerating in the context and not think youre being fanboyish. And I suppose its possible he meant he had enough energy in that one blast to destroy all the planets and the sun if they were lined up like Sephiroths ultimate attack or something but even that is significantly more than what Supes and his opponents are capable.


Umm, we have scan of him flying straight trough Saturnus's moon when Lex became president. It might not technically be a punch, but he went trough it with fist first. ;P


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## unknowndanex (Feb 12, 2006)

> Even if went around the world 1000 times, he's still way below lightspeed.
> (Light-speed would do ~12000 laps in 29 minutes, with ten min nap ~8000 laps, with the basic circumference)



well, considering gotenks wasn't even tired after doing all that, i doubt it was his full speed.  especially considering yall like to point out how DBZ characters get tired all the times.  but you're right, the world may never know.  and the world may never know how long it took superman to orbit around and hit that robot considering they had no caption, like yall love to have.


> Oh come on. Check page 30. Normal people notice and run away from them. (Lower left corner of first frame)



um thats cause the blast were scattered, its called random blasts.



> I think it's pretty clear that he just states that Buu probably knew that it wouldn't catch him. Btw, if you want to catch the inconsistancy in DBZ and the Akiras general care about facts, see 411306.gif and notice how small DBZ Earth is.



and its confirmed that buu could've done better when he admitted he did that attack to hide himself so goten and trunks could fuse themselves again.  and gohan said what he said knowing something wasn't right about what buu did.  and what are you talking bout with this how small he earth is?


> Instant that it takes to check the next frame. Artists do picture stuff that isn't in perfect sync with what is just happening for 'amazing stuff' points.
> 
> I still don't agree that Akira ever kept any consistency with the speed or the power of the blast in DBZ. Or speed in general. But that's my opinion and it really doesn't help judging which one is the winner.



well i could relate that to DC as well in regards to speed.

[QUOTE = Scorpio3.14]Ok, thanks for clearing that up, I thought you were refering to the self destruct thing or one of the other times Cell threatened to blow up the planet with a full powered Kamehameha. However I think Cell was either refering to the fact that he had the power to destroy the solar system now (possible cause the sun to supernova or bit by bit) or he was just blowing smoke out of his ears and was bluffing. Why do I think this? Well I will explain. Before Cell revived and got his power boost his full power Kamehameha was said to be able to blow upt he Earth* (This is compounded when goku's full powered Kamehameha was said to be able to blow up the Earth aswell). By my simple bare minimum calculations (your welcome to check them, I did them fast) the solar system is at the very least more then 70,000,000,000,000 times bigger then the Earth. So unless you believe that Cell got a power bost of over 70 TRILLION times his power before then that feat just dosnt make sense  Atleast Superman's feats are backed up by him actually doing them lol[/QUOTE]

and that is what i call straight up denial.  toriyama inputs that cell could blow up the solar system and it still gets doubted.  when we say something yall whine that its not in the manga and unless toriyama says it then its true, now toriyama has cell saying it and its still not true.  its called denial, this is something i would expect from bullet.


----------



## Viciousness (Feb 12, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Umm, we have scan of him flying straight trough Saturnus's moon when Lex became president. It might not technically be a punch, but he went trough it with fist first. ;P



I already pointed out how bogus that whole event was. They specifically state more than once that his max speed is less than light, yet he reaches saturn in under four minutes. If anything that is a joke exxageration page. But even so thats just him flight through it like you said not really punching it in half, and its just shows he's more durable than the planet and capable of slicing through it.. Which is basically what was said in the hulk vs Supes thread about Hulk flying through the asteroid twice the size of earth after I posted it as a feat for Hulk.
anyway its late as hell here and my schedules offf enough as it is from getting sick so Im going to bed.in case anyone wonders whats taking me to respond.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 12, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Not to be rude but how can you not think that that flash of light on the page after Kamesennin fires it is supposed to represent a huge explosion? every one else was just so blown back by it and covering their faces that they couldnt see what it was that blew up. Its more or less like were seeing it through their eyes but that explosion was definately sudden, not when everyone notices that the moons gone but back when we see that flash of light in the dark frame.



The flash of light was from the Kamehameha going off, notice at the top of that same page the light appears to being going up engulfing Ape Goku. That is why everyone though that Goku was dead, if the light was coming from above this mistake probably wouldnt have been made. Plus the light given off by the moon explodeing would be dwarfed by the sunlight during the day, it wouldnt cause such a blinding flash unless you were looking straight at it.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> I can see how u might say it mght be impossible to tell exactly how many fractions of a second it took. But if you really think it took more than a couple seconds tops to get from cell to where it is in space in the panel, youre in denial, and thats being generous. In the gohan pic, the frame before its in space its just hitting cell, next frame the beam is way off in space so that it looks more like a star than a stream, then the frame after gohan is still in the pose he threw it in, and still two frames later cell is realizing how damaged he is and in shock making noises.
> 
> As for the Final Flash pic the dust is still spiked up in the next frame and doesnt look like its rounded and settling for like 3 more frames. besides in the frame where its in space you see a huge explosion on earth and the beam is in space, pretty far out there too. Looks like it was intended to convey light speed to me.



Well I did say that a couple of seconds probably was the upper limit of the time. However, even if it was only two seconds or even one thats still probably far less then the speed of light when you do that calculations. Of course this depends not only on the time it took which we dont know but how far out into space the beams got in that time which we also cant tell. Even with generous estimates IMO its still quite a bit less then the speed of light.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> His biggest punching power feat that bullet loves to repost when we talk about DB characters blowing up planets, is Supes telling some guy that that punch he almost hit him with in anger couldve split the moon. That sounds like it could easily be an obvious exxageration there, hes in anger and talking to someone whos a peon to him. I dont see how you could give him the benefit of the doubt there and not beleive Cell when its far less likely he's exxagerating in the context and not think youre being fanboyish. And I suppose its possible he meant he had enough energy in that one blast to destroy all the planets and the sun if they were lined up like Sephiroths ultimate attack or something but even that is significantly more than what Supes and his opponents are capable.



Well the thing is, like I said, Superman backs up his feats with actions. Sure superman has said that before, but he has also done it before. When Lex was elected President, Superman was so mad he casually flew to Saturn and completely cracked one of its moon in half.





			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> I remember the heat the world thing and it really isnt as significant as blowing up the world or killing 1/10th of the earth with a stay blast, It shows great control, but Id have to say shaking the world without touching it is more significant.and a planet busting blast would have more of an effect than that. Honestly Id say its because of how his eyes are designed, shonron could heat the earth and hes weaker then goku since he couldnt even kill the saiyajin.



I know its not equivilant to blowing up the world, I was just stated how Goku shakeing the world when powering up wasnt anything special since Superman can effect the entire world quite easily.




			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> once again if you look at the page I dont see how you could really think this took less than 2 seconds tops without being in denial. An explosion  is still spiking from where it came out on the other side as you see the blast leaving earth like a distant memory. Its just a cut over from the last fram and not meant to represent a great deal of time, and just below that ddnde and mrs statan are still ducking.



Even if it took 2 seconds its still less then the speed of light depending on how far you think it went out which is impossible to tell since there is no frame of reference. Heck, even if it only took 1 second it still probably wouldnt reach those kinda speeds.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> I already pointed out how bogus that whole event was. They specifically state more than once that his max speed is less than light, yet he reaches saturn in under four minutes. If anything that is a joke exxageration page.



Superman can go faster the light in the vacuum of space now, the 99% thing is on Earth where I assumed this fight would be taken place since Goku cant breath in space.


----------



## konflikti (Feb 12, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> um thats cause the blast were scattered, its called random blasts.


I don't really care what you like to call them, but they aren't anywhere near light speed if normal people can react to them. Normal people can't really react to bullet, yet these people were running.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and what are you talking bout with this how small he earth is?


I'm talking that you need to fly significantly higher to see Earth's surface arc like that. Doesn't have much to do with the topic though. (unless you really want to think that DBZ Earth is smaller than DCs)




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well i could relate that to DC as well in regards to speed.


Except, you can't, since they state the numbers.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and that is what i call straight up denial.  toriyama inputs that cell could blow up the solar system and it still gets doubted.  when we say something yall whine that its not in the manga and unless toriyama says it then its true, now toriyama has cell saying it and its still not true.  its called denial, this is something i would expect from bullet.


This would be the case if the text were in the text box(provided by the storyteller), or said by someone else than Cell. As Scorpio pointed out, there isn't much logic backing it up either.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> I already pointed out how bogus that whole event was. They specifically state more than once that his max speed is less than light, yet he reaches saturn in under four minutes. If anything that is a joke exxageration page. But even so thats just him flight through it like you said not really punching it in half, and its just shows he's more durable than the planet and capable of slicing through it.


I don't really like the way you label canon material as 'joke exaggeration page'. While I agree that the time they provided out wasn't correct at all, you can't really say that the moon splitting feat should suffer from that.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 12, 2006)

> I don't really care what you like to call them, but they aren't anywhere near light speed if normal people can react to them. Normal people can't really react to bullet, yet these people were running.



Well yeh they could react, they would be able to see the trail of light, then if some missed them, they would have enough sense to start moving.




> This would be the case if the text were in the text box(provided by the storyteller), or said by someone else than Cell. As Scorpio pointed out, there isn't much logic backing it up either.



Cells calculations wouldnt have been that wrong, even if it didnt take the solar system out, i would have been close to doing it, and it would have dam well taken out the earth.


----------



## konflikti (Feb 12, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Well yeh they could react, they would be able to see the trail of light, then if some missed them, they would have enough sense to start moving.


One doesn't react to anything that moves even remotely close to speed of light. The whole point was to prove that the blast wasn't close to lightspeed. You don't have time to open your mouth, much less start running. You don't notice a thing.


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## Gunners (Feb 12, 2006)

> One doesn't react to anything that moves even remotely close to speed of light. The whole point was to prove that the blast wasn't close to lightspeed. You don't have time to open your mouth, much less start running. You don't notice a thing.
> __________________



What i am saying, they would have seen light trails of beams, ones that didnt hit them and tried to run for cover, then they would  be hit by what ever.


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## konflikti (Feb 12, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> What i am saying, they would have seen light trails of beams, ones that didnt hit them and tried to run for cover, then they would  be hit by what ever.


I don't think you understand lightspeed or what he was trying to prove there. If the beams were lightspeed, they would have hitted almost simulateously, giving no time for reaction.


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## Gunners (Feb 12, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> I don't think you understand lightspeed or what he was trying to prove there. If the beams were lightspeed, they would have hitted almost simulateously, giving no time for reaction.




No what im trying to say, is he fired some that missed people.

From the explosions they would have tried to run, then one of his recents energy blast would have struck them.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 12, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> People think the ki blasts arent capable of travelling light speed? Super Buu managed to send blasts to every corner of the globe in a matter of seconds. Dodging one light speed blast is hard enough, but can you imagine supes dodging billions? Besides Superman cant even put up a ki shield so who knows how much more he'll have to absorb with his body:



I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if hte blasts were going at the speed of light, it wouldn't take "seconds" to get to the farthest parts of the globe.  If they were going the speed of light, to get to the farthest edge of the world would take about .07 seconds.

And for elaboration, the speed of neurons in a normal person's brain go at a speed much slower than that of light, so if they were lightspeed blasts they'd be killed litereally before they realize they see them (super-speed superheros aren't generally affected by this, but the normal people getting killed were clearly aware that they were under attack, which means the blasts were MUCH slower than light speed).


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## Gunners (Feb 12, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if hte blasts were going at the speed of light, it wouldn't take "seconds" to get to the farthest parts of the globe.  If they were going the speed of light, to get to the farthest edge of the world would take about .07 seconds.
> 
> And for elaboration, the speed of neurons in a normal person's brain go at a speed much slower than that of light, so if they were lightspeed blasts they'd be killed litereally before they realize they see them (super-speed superheros aren't generally affected by this, but the normal people getting killed were clearly aware that they were under attack, which means the blasts were MUCH slower than light speed).




Nah, they would have seen the light trails from beams that missed, and then decide to move to safety, the ones that hit them, they wouldnt have seen.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 12, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Nah, they would have seen the light trails from beams that missed, and then decide to move to safety, the ones that hit them, they wouldnt have seen.


I'll try to explain this as simply as I can.

If the beams themselves are going faster than the speed of light, then the "light trails" from the beams won't be seen until after the attack has hit.

Cell only fires one blast that apparently breaks up into billions.  The last of those billion blasts should hit in less than .07 seconds after he fires if they're going at the speed of light.  Even if you were watching him "shoot" a normal human takes longer than .07 seconds to react.

Those scans CLEARLY show that the attacks aren't going anywhere near the speed of light.  If we wanted to do real calculations I'd point out that a normal person's sight is limited to around 3 miles on average.  And some of the people in those pictures had time to see the attack, realize the attack was actually coming for them, turn and start to run.

I'd say ballpark 5-10 seconds for them to go three miles with that.  Gives us a speed of around 1080-2160mph for the blasts, very roughly.  Fast enough that a normal person wouldn't have any chance to dodge them (and didn't, apparently), but not much of a threat to a super-speed type.  This puts them in the same ballpark as a high-powered rifle, actually.

Thanks for the scan's DrunkenYoshimaster it really helped clear up this issue.


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## Gunners (Feb 12, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> I'll try to explain this as simply as I can.
> 
> If the beams themselves are going faster than the speed of light, then the "light trails" from the beams won't be seen until after the attack has hit.
> 
> ...




What im saying, is not every beam hit, so they would see the trail of light and what it destroyed, and run.

The ones that hit them, they most likely didnt see.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 12, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> What im saying, is not every beam hit, so they would see the trail of light and what it destroyed, and run.
> 
> The ones that hit them, they most likely didnt see.



But Buu only fired once, why would he intentially hold some blasts back to hit several seconds later?

Even if he did have two "waves" I don't see why he'd wait for seconds between them.  First wave hits at T+.06 seconds, second wave hits at T+.12, that's not really within the time to do anything in reaction, even if your brain does acknowledge the first attack.

I suppose Buu could have done it intentionally to screw with humans, but nothing he says indicates that this was the case (moreso, his lines gave me the distinct impression that he was in a hurry, thus I'd assume he'd do it in the most effecient manner he could come up with).


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## Id (Feb 12, 2006)

Supermans Durability feats.

In Superman Man of Steel #66, he once again acted as an effective shield, protecting cities around the world by blocking numerous "atom-smashing" force beams with his body. At one point he had 6 such beams trained on him simultaneously. 

In Adventures of Superman #581, Superman allowed Adversary, a powerful magical foe, to hit him as hard as he could, without retaliation. Superman was literally punched halfway across the planet- from Metropolis, he literally landed in China- without any injury or loss of consciousness 

But forget about being punched across the planet to China, how about through the planet to China? In Superman #181, Superman and Bizarro (his magically-created, brain damaged, "imperfect" duplicate) switched bodies. Superman (in Bizarro's body) punched Bizarro (in Superman's body) completely through the Earth and out the other end. Bizarro (in Superman's body) was slammed in through the ground in Metropolis and came out two panels later in China. He was shown ripping straight through the Earth?s crust, mantle, and core, and coming out on the other side of the planet. Superman's body was fully conscious and completely unharmed by the blow (Bizarro was smiling as usual). 

In Man of Tomorrow #13, Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blast from Orion's Astro-Harness that blasted him across the planet from the North Pole to India. 

Action Comics # 762: Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blow from the magical demon Etrigan. The blow actually knocked Superman from Earth's surface all the way to the moon (239,000 miles), a distance that is about 10 times the diameter of the Earth. Superman was virtually unfazed. In this issue he also shrugged off magical demon-fire (which he did previously in Action #589), and his super-lungs harmlessly inhaled the demon's magical gases. 

In Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey, Superman survived, at ground zero, a blast equal to "a million nuclear bombs" (according to the energy being Waverider). The explosion was caused by the destruction of the power generator for the entire planet of Calaton; the energy was drawn from the planetary core. Superman did not suffer any physical damage, but was momentarily rendered inert, and stated that he felt concussed. He then got up and boxed a little more with Doomsday, who also survived the blast. 

In Adventures of Superman #478, as part of the Time and Time Again storyline, Superman survived- without so much as batting an eye- the nuclear destruction of the entire moon in the year 2995. The moon had been lined with sufficient nuclear devices to disintegrate it in one shot. When the moon was obliterated, Superman was actually within the moon (structures had been built beneath the surface of the moon). He did not suffer any harm and did not lose consciousness. 

Superman's ability to survive immersion in the sun is well documented by now. In Adventures of Superman #480, Superman survived immersion in the sun for the first time, but with great difficulty. This was actually a RED sun at the time, due to the Eradicator's interference. In both the Superman: Last God of Krypton one shot and Superman Man of Steel #50, Superman survived immersion in the outer layers of the Earth's yellow sun enjoyably, received extra power from the sun, and effortlessly escaped the sun?s gravitational pull. Furthermore, in both Action Comics # 782 and Superman Man of Steel #64, Superman survived the core of the sun without any problems. The pressure at the core of the sun is equal to 250 billion Earth atmospheres. 

In JLA #41, Superman absorbed the energy of the Mageddon Warhead, a device capable, at the minimum, of vaporizing half a galaxy. Writer Grant Morrison intended Mageddon to be "the primordial annihilator" capable of literally destroying everything. Visibly distressed by the absorption, Superman still suffered no harm whatsoever, and even smiled afterwards

Adventures of Superman #477: survives being at ground zero of an imploding sun-eater, followed by a plummet to Earth. KO'd; otherwise OK afterwards. 

Adventures of Superman #478: survives the nuclear obliteration of the Earth's moon )in the 31st century, IIRC) without batting an eye. 

Adventures #480: takes a dive into the outer layers of a red sun. 

Man of Steel #64, Action Comics #782: goes into the core of a yellow sun. 

Action Comics #696: takes a trip through a cosmic wormhole. 

Hunter/Prey #3: weathers ground zero of the supposed "million nukes" blast on Calaton. 

JLA/JSA Virtue/Vice: Goes through a black hole. Not sure if Sentinel protected him or not - it's not clear from the story. 

Superman #9: weathers ground zero of a 40 megaton nuke followed by a fall to Earth from outer space. KO'd for a half hour, OK afterwards. 

Superman for All Seasons #1 and Trinity #1: impressively endures ground zero nukes without loss of consciousness or injury.


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## Id (Feb 12, 2006)

Strength feats.
Man of Steel #30: Standing on Earth's surface, Superman punched Lobo into orbit and beyond with one uppercut. 

Adventure of Superman #473: From Earth, Superman threw an alien space craft clear of Earth?s gravity and into outer space. This craft was larger than an aircraft carrier and over a mile long (a typical aircraft carrier is about a 1/4 of a mile long and weighs about 100,000 tons, so this ship was about 4x that size) 

Several events show Superman as a moon-mover. In JLA # 7, as Electro-Superman, he halted the fall of the Moon towards Earth (caused by Neron's magical machinations), then moved the Moon back its proper position in orbit. He later commented that he's more powerful as "regular" Superman. Writer Grant Morrison and artist Howard Porter had originally intended the moon-moving event in JLA #7 be done by "regular" Superman , but DC forced them to use Electro-Supes. This event is butressed by several more. In JLA: The Century War, ancient "alchemical engines" were causing the moon to fall towards the Earth. Superman and Green Lantern took turns holding the moon back against the "geometrically increasing force" that was causing it to fall. Superman got the last "moon-bracing" shift. In Superman Man of Steel #30, Superman grabbed, easily broke the forward movement of, and easily threw in the opposite direction, a space ship the size of a small moon. In JLA # 58, Superman , Wonder Woman and Green Lantern collaborated to tow Earth's moon a distance of 238,900 miles in mere seconds, indicating a fantastic acceleration, and then pulled the moon out of Earth's gravity (which increases its weight tremendously). As he is universally regarded as the JLA's most powerful member, I'm inclined to give Superman more than one-third, and - conservatively - about one-half, the work effort. In the Lex 2000 special, with a single strike, Superman split one of Saturn's moons in half. Saturn's moons are small moons. 

Action Comics Annual #7: Fighting in space, Superman successfully resisted the pull from a black hole that had opened up directly below (inches from) his feet. The miniature black hole had been induced by advanced alien (Ht'ros) war technology.


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## Id (Feb 12, 2006)

Speed feats.

Superman #13: Flew around the equator in a matter of seconds, indicating a speed of well over 1,000,000 mph, or roughly 1350 times the speed of sound. 

Man of Steel #110: Standing in one spot, Superman used his super speed to vibrate his body invisible. 


Superman #175: Taking another speed trick from the Flash?s book of tricks, Superman used his super speed to vibrate his body intangible, thus allowing Doomsday's punches and fire-breath to pass harmlessly through him. A body moving at light speed within an atmosphere will become intangible (that's how the Flash does it). 

Return of Superman: Superman used his speed to vibrate his arm so fast, it shattered the Cyborg?s body into hundreds of fragments. 

After racing the Man of Steel, Impulse stated that Superman travels at 99% of the speed of light. 

War of the Gods #4: Superman actually out-raced an energy beam to its target. In JLA: Heavens Ladder, it is stated that Superman can race a photon to its target. 

Lex 2000 special: Superman made the trip from Earth to Saturn in well under 4 minutes. By comparison, light takes about 19 minutes to make this trip. He was pissed at the time.


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## Id (Feb 12, 2006)

Powers (heat vision and such.)

Superman #167: His power waning under a red sun, Superman still summoned enough heat vision to successfully power Jor-El's planet-moving ion engines. The planet in this case had a mass 16 times that of Earth's. 

Superman's heat vision has a maximum range of at least 239,000 miles (the distance from the Earth to the Moon). In Superman #101, he let out a beam from Earth's surface that scorched the surface of the moon; In Man of Steel #112, he shot a beam that bounced off the surface of the moon. Krypto did, too. 

In John Byrne's Man of Steel revamp, it was shown that Superman's microscopic vision can see on the subcellular level, as he analyzed Bizarro?s cellular structure; and even on the molecular level, as he analyzed the molecular composition of Magpie's acid-gas. 

In the JLA: Earth 2 graphic novel, the Martian Manhunter and Superman mulled over the abnormalities at "every eighth angstrom" in the DNA of the anti-matter Earth's version of Lex Luthor. An angstrom is about the size of a large atom. 

Superman #152: Superman's telescopic vision allowed him to peer across the galaxy to WarWorld. 

In Man of Steel #121, Superman's super-hearing allowed him to pinpoint a single person in a city of 11 million based on such distinctive sounds as the rustle of that person's clothing and the sound of their heartbeat.


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## Id (Feb 12, 2006)

Superman vs…..feats.


Soul Search: Fighting alone in Hell (literally), Superman single-handedly defeated Blaze, a death goddess, in her own realm. This had never been accomplished before by anyone; Blaze has magical control over the very reality of her realm. The attacks that Superman fought off included magical transmutation into a demon, which he shook off through sheer willpower ; magical energy blasts from Blaze ; a magical spell that encased him in stone, which he subsequently shattered; and immersion in the lava lakes of this magical dimension. 

Alone against the Daxamite Lar Gand, (Daxamites are the genetic cousins to, but reputed to be more powerful than, Kryptonians), Superman soundly KO'd Lar, despite the fact that Superman was operating on empty lungs on the airless surface of the moon (Lar had air in his lungs however). 

Action Comics Annual #7: Alone, Superman twice defeated alien armadas, each capable of destroying a planet. 

Superman #153: Superman became the first being ever in the history of the Universe to defeat an Imperiex probe. He used a combination of super speed and super strength to destroy an Imperiex space construct ; said construct was capable of annihilating our solar system. Note that Superman took a blast from Imperiex, the beam aforementioned as being able to vaporize a solar system.


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## Tousenz (Feb 12, 2006)

They still won't admit defeat Id.


This thread was useless once they started sprouting That goku moved light speed.


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## Id (Feb 12, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> They still won't admit defeat Id.
> 
> 
> This thread was useless once they started sprouting That goku moved light speed.



 I will contnue to post more feats as I come across them.

By all means Im not bashing on Goku. And I am not a fan of superman. But you have to realize that Superman has bin around since like the 30?s (I think) and he sure as hell has a lot more feats then the short time DBZ was around (compared to DC Superman comics that is).

Goku is strong. And I do think he does move at the speed of light. But Superman is stronger, faster, with genius like intellect, and a huge bag of powers. To me Superman is a boring character but I respect his strength. And its not some thing that can be ignored.


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## Id (Feb 12, 2006)

Small spoilers-

That wasn't a future version of Superman. It was actually the version from "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow", which was a non-canon end to the Silver Age Superman. 
Technically, he was fighting an incarnation of the Silver Age Superman, which goes to say a great deal about Superman's strength and durability.


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## Id (Feb 12, 2006)

Superman Moving a planet.



there's a darker version of V2.
there's a darker version of V2.


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## acritarch (Feb 12, 2006)

Yeah DY, you obviously use the manga so you know what you're talking about as well. However, it's basically you and unknowndanex vs. a bunch of other people knowing what they are talking about as well. Shrug.

In any case, I don't think I am overestimating Supes from not really reading much of his comics and corollary appearances and here's why: my interpretation of the battledome is that the two characters that are participating in the fight are going to go ALL OUT when they fight. When taking into account someone like the Flash (who I know a lot about), he definitely has a lot of the powers necessary to just freeze anyone in place with the speed force and kill them in .0000000000001 seconds or whatever. That is Wally going all out. Unless specifically stated, I don't take into account their character flaws in which case Wally would sit around talking for half the comic out of sheer arrogance or be going under the speed of sound in a city so he doesn't sonic boom destroy every window and create tornado vortices from the vaccuum he leaves in his wake. 

Therefore, Supes going all out against Goku going all out.. I would think Supes will most definitely win because he is stronger, faster and more durable. The fact that Goku possesses attack(s) that may be far stronger in potential destructive force is imho pretty much irrelevant if he can't hit Supes with them. 

At least, that's my take on the situation.


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## Viciousness (Feb 12, 2006)

ID out of all the posters defending Supes I'd have to say that you are the most reasonable. While I still have a good deal of respect for Braindx and Scorp, I'd have to say the latter much like Tousen is still in denial that they are intended to move and dodge much faster in close combat than when travelling linearly. That's been apparent since Kurririn vs Kamesennin back at the beggining of the series, and it seems to be true later on as well.

You make a good point that of course Supes will have more feats since he has been around far longer, a point that I have stated before. its far easier to make an awing post in his favor with more scans than are available of Goku and co.

I will say this though, several of the pictures are shown without much knowledge of the context during which they were taken.  For all we know it could be Supes Prime etc. but Ill assume its not. One good example of this is that planet moving feat you showed. Please look at that picture again * he is really struggling to move a ripped off section of a city*.And even if he could move a planet that doesnt mean he could take a blast capable of wiping out the solar system. While it shows he's physically stronger than Goku perhaps, this isnt an arm wrestling match between the two. Goku's mmain way of fighting is powerful beams that take out cities with ease and even planets, clever battle tactics with IT and ki sensing, dodging attacks that are moving at lightspeed and attacking at insanely high rates of speed that are much faster than he traverses the land.




			
				EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Cell only fires one blast that apparently breaks up into billions.  The last of those billion blasts should hit in less than .07 seconds after he fires if they're going at the speed of light.  Even if you were watching him "shoot" a normal human takes longer than .07 seconds to react.



First off I think you meant to say Buu . Second light travels around the earth linearly in 1/7th of a second, which would be much closer to .143 fractions of a second. Also Buu's blasts aren't exactly moving in a linear fashion, nor do they seem to leave in the same billionth of a second as they are all at slightly different lengths on page 28. 

My point is that the entire attack was done in a matter of seconds. People will scream much like in war of the world when you see the person next to you has been blasted by a beam from the sky, but if the beam coming for you left a half a second later than someone unsespecting in front of you there's still a chance for you to run or scream. While I dont pretend there was as much deviation between the leaving time of the beams as in the anime, I'd still say it was significant enough for some people to notice. 

Even if I bought that the beams left at the same time to prove those beams are moving slightly less than light speed, it doesnt change the fact that one beam moving a certain speed doesnt determine the beam which all move. My example of Kurririn's split beam was meant to show that as well. Piccolo notes how significantly slow kurririn is controlling his beam to move and then it splits. Ever since that first split beam attack we've seen its been apparent. Buu's Human Genocide attack is the ultimate split beam attack, if he were to fire off one beam it would probably have moved faster. If he can throw an attack from which the Super Saiyajin cant react he could definately have done one so fast Tenshinhan wouldnt have been able to defend if necessary. 
And even if they left at the same time it doesnt take away from the speed at which Buu's attack through the planet, Gohan's attack through cell's beam, and Vegeta's Final Flash all travelled, or that the Z-senshu would be able to dodge Supe's near light speed Bumrush which several in his favor have said he would use to win.



			
				konflikti said:
			
		

> I don't really like the way you label canon material as 'joke exaggeration page'. While I agree that the time they provided out wasn't correct at all, you can't really say that the moon splitting feat should suffer from that.



I could beg to differ, but I was more or less giving you the moon flying through feat, simply saying that in the same fashion several arguing in favor of Supes vs Hulk downplayed Hulk flying through an asteroid twice the size of earth, Supe's mearly Sliced through the planet, Not punched it in half like he did with the moon. That really shows no more durability than one of Freeza's Blasts, if that. But yeah I refuse to accept the time, as his max speed has been stated to be far less before then that. That speed feat has to go in one of those bogus one time feats that DC probably doesnt acknowledge as it conflicts with their own stats.



			
				Tousen said:
			
		

> They still won't admit defeat Id.
> 
> 
> This thread was useless once they started sprouting That goku moved light speed.



 I dont mean to flame you Tousen but honestly you're talking about we wont admit defeat when your points have been amongst the most useless presented. While you're more reasonable than Bullet, no less than two days ago I was forced to show you beyond any reasonable doubt that SSJ3 Goku was stated by toriyama to be slightly weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks and tell you about Roshi's beam to the moon. Thus far youve proved absolutely nothing to me. Some of the others have but not you. Dont mean to call you a cheerleader, but do you're not exactly ID humble either. You thought IT moved at only the speed of light as well, and have brought about as much to the table as Rice Ball. I dont mean to call you out but it seems like your main purpose here is to talk down to the noobs which youve devoted entire posts two more than once thus far. Perhaps its time youve had a taste of your own medicine.


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## Dark Shadowx (Feb 12, 2006)

Superman. Why this thread is still alive, I don't know >_<


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## Tousenz (Feb 12, 2006)

> I dont mean to flame you Tousen but honestly you're talking about we wont admit defeat when your points have been amongst the most useless presented. While you're more reasonable than Bullet, no less than two days ago I was forced to show you beyond any reasonable doubt that SSJ3 Goku was stated by toriyama to be slightly weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks and tell you about Roshi's beam to the moon. Thus far youve proved absolutely nothing to me. Some of the others have but not you. Dont mean to call you a cheerleader, but do you're not exactly ID humble either. You thought IT moved at only the speed of light as well, and have brought about as much to the table as Rice Ball. I dont mean to call you out but it seems like your main purpose here is to talk down to the noobs which youve devoted entire posts two more than once thus far. Perhaps its time youve had a taste of your own medicine.


 
Because this thread is useless.

Goku can't Survive in space. He doesnt move faster than light. And he can't take Planet destroying punches.



He's weaker than Chou gohan and gotenks and most forms of buu.

He Can't fight during Instant transmission. 

Superman moves faster than him can easily pull him into space and watch him die.

Superman can easily push the planet into the sun.

Superman Can easily Punch a hole through his head.



The stats suck.

And all the proof is in the several threads we already had on the subject. For me to provide "proof" is futile because you still wouldn't admit it due to clear dbz bias.


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## Rice Ball (Feb 12, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> You thought IT moved at only the speed of light as well, and have brought about as much to the table as Rice Ball..



Is that some sorta flame attempt?
Leave me the hell out of this dumbass fanboy thread :|




			
				Rice Ball said:
			
		

> I think its best to just leave it as it is, its pretty clear hes not going to change his mind.
> 
> Going further would just degenerate this into a mindless flame war.



You should have looked at this and followed my advice tbh.


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## Viciousness (Feb 12, 2006)

braindx said:
			
		

> Therefore, Supes going all out against Goku going all out.. I would think Supes will most definitely win because he is stronger, faster and more durable. The fact that Goku possesses attack(s) that may be far stronger in potential destructive force is imho pretty much irrelevant if he can't hit Supes with them.



Youre also very reasonable braindx. But IMO while we cant prove Goku is stronger,  we have shown that he very likely  moves much faster in close range than when traversing the land, neither of which are slow, now would he be likely to get caught by Supes bumrush. We've shown scans that many would interperate as beams moving at the speed of light, whether you beleive them or choose to deny is up to you. Weve also proved that Goku trained 10 years non stop till the end of the series and is likely far more durable by the end of the series based on what has happened in the past.

And Ive heard no arguments against the possibility of Goku using tactics to win if they became necessary, even if you doubt the rest of the points. Its not like nothings ever surprised Supes before, and Goku has the option of directional ki blasts from an unknown origin since he can sense where Supes is, An  Instant transmission to behind Supes with a Planet or possibly Solar System destroying blast in tow, or even a kienzan to try and Cut Supes. Plus we have no idea how a punch filled with ki that knocks ki surrounded being to the earth like meteors and through buldings like bowling balls would affect the man of steel.

IMO it comes down to whether you accept or deny the feats presented in many of the pics. I suppose there is no absolute that is good enough for most. Unlike with Superman we are never given exact figures, but saying they move faster in combat has been shown and is reasonable. Exactly how fast is intended is up to you. And while some things may appear obvious to some as conveying light speed, others may refuse to accept that possibly out of bias. My own interpretation is that Supes has never faced an opponent with as much destructive power as many of those from DB, and when he finds himself face to face with a billion near light speed blasts coming from unbenknownst origins he will be stunned, only to have Goku come from under using IT with a blast capable of wiping out the solar system, knocking him into the far reaches of space unconcious at least.
Others might be in denial that Goku has ever dodged anything close to light speed before and say Supes would bumrush him and carry him out to space while Goku is helpless, killing him, or that he would put Goku in a chokehold and for whatever reason Goku would be too helpless to fire off a ki blast from any orafice as he has ben shown to be capable since the 23rd bodukai. But like I said with the exception of those too biased to acknowledge that even buu stands a chance against superman, what it comes down to is whether youre in denial about what Toriyama seemed to be conveying Goku to be capable in close combat. Other than that, this thread could go on for ever potentially.


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## Viciousness (Feb 12, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Because this thread is useless.
> 
> Goku can't Survive in space. He doesnt move faster than light. And he can't take Planet destroying punches.
> 
> ...



First all of Goku's opponents can survive in space, if he can dodge superman from taking him there or blast him off or IT somewhere else that is obviiously not an issue.

Goku can shoot beams from IT

Goku can easily IT to him and fire a blast capable of destroying the solar system to his back.

And youre underestimating Goku


			
				Rice Ball said:
			
		

> Is that some sorta flame attempt?
> Leave me the hell out of this dumbass fanboy thread :|




Wasnt meant as a flame attempt at you, merely stating that you didnt come here to argue, so of course you werent bringing up any points. And Tousen came to argue but wasnt brining up any good points. It was a knock at him not at you really. But honestly you did bring yourself here ...

anyway Im bout to head out and get some work done. Ill bbl to see what everyones responses are.


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## Shiron (Feb 12, 2006)

About this whole "blow up the solar system" thing. Cell said he could blow up the solar system, yes. But he _*never *_said he could do this in one attack. All he said is that he had enough ki energy to do it; he never clarified by what means. Therefore, all this talk about how Cell has an attack that can destroy the entire solar system is worseless and pointless.

This is just like the Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru thing. Yeah, Itachi is stonger, but in what? All Oro said was that Itachi was stronger than him; that's it. But in what? Is Itachi stronger than Oro in ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, doujutsu, hijutsu, kenjutsu, boujutsu, or fuuinjutsu? Or is he stronger than Oro in two or more of these? We just don't know. We know Itachi is stronger than Oro currently, but not in what way.

Therefore, we cannot jump to the conclusion that Cell has an attack that can destroy the solar system in one blast, as he never said that. All he said was that he had enough ki energy to blow this thing up. That could mean that he has enought ki energy to destroy each planet seperately with one attack, enough energy to cause the sun to blow up in a supernova, which would definently destroy the solar system, or he could have a solar-system destoying attack; we just don't know. Thus, it's pointless and wrong to say that Cell has a solar-system destroying attack, when it is unknown if he actually does or not. All we know is that he had enough ki energy to, in one way or another, blow the thing up.


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## Tousenz (Feb 12, 2006)

> First all of Goku's opponents can survive in space,


What does that have to do with this fight?

Cell could have clearly blown up the earth from a distance and won but he said he wanted a challenge.

Superman can destroy the earth killing goku or w/e planet there on.


Im not even going to argue the rest you clearly blinded. I used to be the same I said I argued for goku. Read a few superman comics.  Goku can't match that crap.


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## Rice Ball (Feb 12, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Wasnt meant as a flame attempt at you, merely stating that you didnt come here to argue, so of course you werent bringing up any points. And Tousen came to argue but wasnt brining up any good points. It was a knock at him not at you really. But honestly you did bring yourself here ...
> 
> anyway Im bout to head out and get some work done. Ill bbl to see what everyones responses are.



I posted at the begining of this thread when the goku fans were at there fullest with posts like were goku's defence-



			
				Battlemaster said:
			
		

> Son goku is the best fighter ever i think,he is more powerful and nothing
> can stop him!!





			
				Evil_Itachi said:
			
		

> Super Saiyan 4 > Superman





			
				Cartoon said:
			
		

> Goku wins.





			
				Masamunenissay said:
			
		

> Goku,he actually knows martial arts and has a lot of "jutsus".




Lots of good stuff etc.
I stopped reading this thread after i posted about letting this thread die and letting people believe what they want...
Anyway, if you want me to join and post a load of pictures of superman pushing planets, punching planets, having 200 tricks up his ass etc, i don't really think theres anything that hasn't been posted by ID or Bullet as far as his abilites go.

The problem is while most of the Superman facts are solid. The Goku bits and pieces aren't solid and are up to fans to deside by themselfs. The Dragonball series has tonnes and tonnes of badly wrote parts about there powerlevel.

I'll repeat a few things for you.

Dragonball Tourny saga-
Goku uses the kamahamaha wave to put out a fire.
Master Roshi destroys the moon in a single blast, setting a new standard of what the kamahamaha wave can do.

Dragonball Z Saiyan Saga-
Both Goku and Piccalo fire full strengh blasts at Raditz, he evades them and the blasts make small craters or damage mountains, the earth isn't destroyed by these blasts... everyones wondering if Master Roshi is stronger than Goku.

Dragonball Z Saiyan Saga-
vegeta destroys a planet by firering a beam from his fingers, the planet is destroyed with little effort, they are also seen floating in space so Saiyans can survive in a vacum?
At this point Vegetas power level is around 18000

Dragonball Z Saiyan Saga-
Vegeta prepares to destroy the earth with his main attack, he says if Goku dodges this attack the earth will be destroyed, Goku Kaiokanx4 and sends vegita off the planet with the blast.
Vegeta turns into a Big Monkey, he tells everyone hes now 10x more powerful than he was before, he then fires multipul shots into the earth, earth isn't destroyed, vegeta is a liar. Everyone wonders why Master Roshi doesn't own Vegeta.

Dragonball Z Freiza Saga.
Freiza states that if he destroys the planet, Goku will loose, he tries too, at this point Freiza's powerlevel is around at least 100+million, serious he at stage4 in his transformation said he was fighting non Super Saiyan Goku with 1% of his power, at stage 1 he had over a million.
He says its gunna take 5 minutes for the planet to die (while Vegeta could do it instantly with a single finger at power level 18000)

Dragonball Z Andriod Saga.
Freiza trys to destroy the earth, trunks stops his attack, Freiza then explodes the ball and the earth is dest.....survives and theres a little hole.

Dragonball Z Andriod Saga.
goku learns to instant Translocate, instant movement from any point in the galaxy, funky trick, he can attack with it AFTER he finishs the teleport, and to move he needs to place 2 fingers on his forehead. 

Dragonball Z Andriod Saga.
Goku learns how to drive, he shows us hes powerful enough to do loads of kickass shit but not strong enough to lift a school bus, also he was pretty slow moving to it, maybe he didn't really care about the children, i know i didn't half of them were animals anyway.

Dragonball Z Andriod Saga.
More blasts hit earth, earth survives. Cell Self destructs, it kills Goku, King Kaoi and his planet.

Dragonball Z Buu Saga.
Vegeta at full power, fires a full strengh blast at Goku, Goku evades, blast hits the stadium and fries half the spectators, but the earth survives (Vegeta was SS2+ at this point, he maybe had at least 1000x the power he had during the Saiyan saga when he could remember how to kill a planet)

Dragonball Z Buu Saga.
Buu Destroys earth \o/ it is possible, the little bastard worked out that you can fight with 100% of your power instead of 0.0000001% all the time.
Unfortunately, ge soon forgets and fails to destroy the earth a few times.

I'll not bother going any further than that.
I think most people on this forum will tell you that i'm a DC hater and a DBZ hater (well after reading this thread) the reason i don't like DC comics is because there characters are retardedly powerful, i mean why the hell do you need the JLA when superman could pretty much just act smart and do all the work for them, or Hal Jordan for that matter.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 12, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> I posted at the begining of this thread when the goku fans were at there fullest with posts like were goku's defence-
> 
> 
> 
> ...




ok, once again we're back at points we already explained.  why would goku and piccolo fire attacks at raditz to destroy a planet with their friends (well goku's) and the dragonballs as well, u're not making sense.  we been proved they know how to concetrate a blast.

when vegeta fought goku, he fired an earth destroying blasts that would occur if only goku dodged knowing goku would have to stand there and compete with his blast.  if goku lost the blasts battle he would be destroyed not the planet.  but goku beat him.  now once again why would vegeta in oozaru (who could think for himself) destroy a planet and he can't survive in space. 

of course Frieza would give the planets 5 minutes of life, cause he thought he could beat goku going all out and he could leave the planet.  he could not survive the blasts, he could survive space, hence he would beat goku and fly into space.
*
Dragonball Z Andriod Saga.
Freiza trys to destroy the earth, trunks stops his attack, Freiza then explodes the ball and the earth is dest.....survives and theres a little hole.

Dragonball Z Andriod Saga.
goku learns to instant Translocate, instant movement from any point in the galaxy, funky trick, he can attack with it AFTER he finishs the teleport, and to move he needs to place 2 fingers on his forehead. 

Dragonball Z Andriod Saga.
Goku learns how to drive, he shows us hes powerful enough to do loads of kickass shit but not strong enough to lift a school bus, also he was pretty slow moving to it, maybe he didn't really care about the children, i know i didn't half of them were animals anyway.

Dragonball Z Andriod Saga.
More blasts hit earth, earth survives. Cell Self destructs, it kills Goku, King Kaoi and his planet.*

half of these points are just stupid, we're not proving if goku can lift anything.  we're saying he can hurt superman, his attacks are ki-enhanced, and i didn't see him powering up or using any ki to lift the bus.  and this isn't a bench pressing competition.  for the rest of the android saga points, i have explained them above.

*Dragonball Z Buu Saga.
Vegeta at full power, fires a full strengh blast at Goku, Goku evades, blast hits the stadium and fries half the spectators, but the earth survives (Vegeta was SS2+ at this point, he maybe had at least 1000x the power he had during the Saiyan saga when he could remember how to kill a planet)

Dragonball Z Buu Saga.
Buu Destroys earth \o/ it is possible, the little bastard worked out that you can fight with 100% of your power instead of 0.0000001% all the time.
Unfortunately, ge soon forgets and fails to destroy the earth a few times.*

i already answered this crap earlier.  why would vegeta destroy the planet with goku on it so he can fight him.  you're not making any sense in your post.    buu did not try to destroy the earth with every single attack he made.  WE HAVE SAID TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT DBZ CHARACTERS CAN CONCETRATE ATTACKS.  its not inconsistency, its called control of moves.  like superman controls his heat vision, you're quick to say that, but you're not so quick to say DBZ characters can control they're ki attacks.  use some common sense before you post next time please, and make up new points, cause these are null and void points.


as for Tousen...........Superman wouldn't blow the planet earth up to beat goku, but if they were on a barren planet answer this for me.

how does you expect Supes to destroy the planet from a distance?

and at a distance Goku couldnt sense his ki from and blast him btw?

and with the Cell destroying the solar system thing.  this is nothing but denial, thats all i can say.  if toriyama thinks cell has enough power to destroy a solar system, then yes he can because he made the character.  once again think before you speak.  enough power to destroy a solar system means in lamens terms..........................the power of an explosion that can destroy a solar system was the power that was in the kamehameha.  u talk about captions saying this and statements inside of comics.  then when there is a statement yall come with every single excuse yall can think of.  there is some serious DBZ hating going on here.

and Tousen i would have to agree with DrunkenYoshimaster, all you do is talk and bring no type of argument.  just like the other post i saw from you directing us to another thread with everyone elses points except your.  stick with this thread and make a point.  its not flaming, its the truth.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 12, 2006)

as for Tousen...........Superman wouldn't blow the planet earth up to beat goku, but if they were on a barren planet answer this for me.



> how does you expect Supes to destroy the planet from a distance?





He can punch the planet apart and survive.

And Goku can't touch superman with anything. And if he could nothing would hurt him.





> and Tousen i would have to agree with DrunkenYoshimaster, all you do is talk and bring no type of argument. just like the other post i saw from you directing us to another thread with everyone elses points except your. stick with this thread and make a point. its not flaming, its the truth.


 
Yeah ima stop posting the truth cuz you guys sad your lil childhood hero isn't what he cracks up to be. pfft


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 12, 2006)

Lets move on to another issue since we are just running in circles with the speed issue (still dont see anything to suggest that Goku is the speed of light, call me a fanboy if you want but there is just no proof.)

Strength and Endurance:

unknowndanex has thrown out some completely wild and baseless clames that Goku and the gang are as strong as superman, or atleast can punch as hard yet I have not seen one thing to back this up. Superman has punched people and has been punched half way across the world, the farthest anyone from DBZ has punched someone is about a mile being really generous towards the DBZ guys (maybe Im forgetting something?). The craters made when DBZ characters get punched to the ground and hurt by it are small potholes compared to the kind superman makes and DC characters get up from them perfectly fine. A Kai was awwed when Goku could fight with 40 tons and this is a Kai who trains some of the best fighters in the Galaxy after they die, obviously in the DBZ universe 40 tons and things like 450x earth's gravity is impressive, thats childs play in the DC Universe and Superman is pretty much the top dog there. But hey, whats talk without proof.

DBZ characters cant take physical beatings very well. This has been shown time and time again. I could bring up how Goku was on the ground after one slap into a rock from Ape Vegito in the Saiyan Saga, I could bring up how Frieza physically beat the crap out of Vegita and others in only a few punches and a smash into the ground (didnt even leave a big creator in the ground). Heck, there are tons of times when DBZ guys are hurt by only a few punches from someone stronger then them, but lets skip to later on since we all know they were much stronger later on.

Here is the entire Z-cast being beat badly from Cell Jrs. useing purely physical force and strength, they did not use a single Ki beam. Cell full power did not show one strength feat on the order even close to Superman so you think his Cell Jrs. were as strong as Superman?

AMV Hell 3.
AMV Hell 3.
AMV Hell 3.
AMV Hell 3.
AMV Hell 3.
AMV Hell 3.

Now how about Supreme Kai's supreme beat down at the hands of fat buu? Notice the size of the impact crater that Kai is laying in yet he was badly hurt by it. That kinda impact power is nothing compared to what Superman can do. Plus Buu's smash looks like nothing compared to Superman's orbital smash, Buu's didnt even leave damage to the ground under Kai.

AMV Hell 3.
AMV Hell 3.
AMV Hell 3.

Then how about SSJ Gohan's fear of being hit by one of the rocks Goten is throwing at him. Notice the damage the rock caused to the rock behind Gohan, again the damage is nothing to what Superman can do with a punch. (this can also show speed, Gohan could barely dodge it when he wasnt expecting it and even when he was expecting it he had to adjust to the speed before he had Goten move closer. For this to make sence with what you keep saying about them being able to doge things going light speed, Goten would have had to been throwing those rocks at a significat portion of light speed. Due to the damage done when the rocks hit this is hardly the case.)

AMV Hell 3.
AMV Hell 3.
AMV Hell 3.

Then there are the tireing issues, Superman can fight for weeks, Goku is limited to a very short time in comparison. And to all those who say that Goku's martial arts skill will make it so Superman never lands a punch, may I point out that Buu had absolutely no martial arts skill at all, he was closer to a Hulk type fight with Smash and Bash technics then aything else. Cell also had a pretty sloppy fighting style, he relied on more power then technique. Also the andriods had next to no martial arts.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 12, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> as for Tousen...........Superman wouldn't blow the planet earth up to beat goku, but if they were on a barren planet answer this for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



u must got a lot of red towels to wrap around your neck and jump around in, cause if u don't u need to wash that towel.  u don't post the truth, u post nothing, just like your comment just now.  it had no point what so ever.  u never prove anything.

prove superman can't be hurt by goku.  do something to contribute to the hardworking superman supporters like braindx, scorpio, and ID.  cause u have done nothing.  and once again show me superman punching a planet apart, and prove to me goku wouldn't be able to IT in time.  once again u have made no point.

stop running off at the mouth.


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## konflikti (Feb 12, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and with the Cell destroying the solar system thing.  this is nothing but denial, thats all i can say.  if toriyama thinks cell has enough power to destroy a solar system, then yes he can because he made the character.  once again think before you speak.  enough power to destroy a solar system means in lamens terms..........................the power of an explosion that can destroy a solar system was the power that was in the kamehameha.  u talk about captions saying this and statements inside of comics.  then when there is a statement yall come with every single excuse yall can think of.  there is some serious DBZ hating going on here.


It's a serious inconsistency in the feats(this isn't even feat). Just like Supes flying to Saturn in 4 minutes. Just because DBZ has only one writer doesn't mean that we should take everything as granted.


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## Tousenz (Feb 12, 2006)

> u must got a lot of red towels to wrap around your neck and jump around in, cause if u don't u need to wash that towel. u don't post the truth, u post nothing, just like your comment just now. it had no point what so ever. u never prove anything.


 
Yeah im the one making pointless posts... Ima go wash my towel now.


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## Bullet (Feb 12, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> u must got a lot of red towels to wrap around your neck and jump around in, cause if u don't u need to wash that towel.  u don't post the truth, u post nothing, just like your comment just now.  it had no point what so ever.  u never prove anything.
> 
> prove superman can't be hurt by goku.  do something to contribute to the hardworking superman supporters like braindx, scorpio, and ID.  cause u have done nothing.  and once again show me superman punching a planet apart, and prove to me goku wouldn't be able to IT in time.  once again u have made no point.
> 
> stop running off at the mouth.



Superman doesn't destroy planets, that whould be killing, which he doesn't do. But he has beaten a planet.

Here's Superman beating a PLANET.

Here, Supes goes faster than light (he still havn't shown a limit with his speed either) to quickly defeat a cosmic cannibal planet, who eats Stars to survive.

He takes out this powerful creature effortlessly. Later on, he reheats the entire earth (which I'm sure you've seen)...









And after that he reheats Earth BTW.


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## Shiron (Feb 12, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and with the Cell destroying the solar system thing.  this is nothing but denial, thats all i can say.  if toriyama thinks cell has enough power to destroy a solar system, then yes he can because he made the character.  once again think before you speak.  enough power to destroy a solar system means in lamens terms..........................the power of an explosion that can destroy a solar system was the power that was in the kamehameha.  u talk about captions saying this and statements inside of comics.  then when there is a statement yall come with every single excuse yall can think of.  there is some serious DBZ hating going on here.


 Please point me to the page in the manga where Cell said he had enough power to destroy the solar system *in one attack. *Must have missed the part where he said he could do it one attack. Please provide the actual facts from the maga befroe you claim I'm in denial. Nowhere did he say he could do it in one attack, so *you're* the one who's speculating and *you're* the one who's in denial that Cell could possibly mean anything other than being able to destroy the solar system by something other than one attack, when it's not stated how he would go about doing it at all. 

And you say Bullet has a DC bias...?  You're biases seem just as bad as me, when you start speculating like that, and say I'm in denial when I don't accept your speculation. I say Cell meant destroying each planet one by one. You say he can destroy the solar system with one attack. Both can possibly be true and it's not stated which one is right. So accept the fact that it's not written, it could possibly go either way, and move on.

Edit: @Bullet: Which version of Superman is that? Just curious.


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## Bullet (Feb 12, 2006)

Meijin no Kori said:
			
		

> Edit: @Bullet: Which version of Superman is that? Just curious.



Post-Crisis Superman, I never use Pre-Crisis Superman (and he's never really allowed in matches).


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## Rice Ball (Feb 12, 2006)

unknowndanex Please read the whole of my posts, not just the little bits you see and explode at, my point was Gokus powerlevel has soo meny dips and dives, getting a accurate measure of there abilities is a real challenge (ie impossible)



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> ok, once again we're back at points we already explained.  why would goku and piccolo fire attacks at raditz to destroy a planet with their friends (well goku's) and the dragonballs as well, u're not making sense.  we been proved they know how to concetrate a blast.



Please show me the page where it says 'Okay Goku, lets hold back our powers because if we use them to the full the earth will be destroyed.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> when vegeta fought goku, he fired an earth destroying blasts that would occur if only goku dodged knowing goku would have to stand there and compete with his blast.  if goku lost the blasts battle he would be destroyed not the planet.  but goku beat him.  now once again why would vegeta in oozaru (who could think for himself) destroy a planet and he can't survive in space.



As i said above, Vegeta CAN survive in space, at this point in the battle he had NO INTEREST in keeping earth in one piece, he just wanted Goku and friends dead.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> of course Frieza would give the planets 5 minutes of life, cause he thought he could beat goku going all out and he could leave the planet.  he could not survive the blasts, he could survive space, hence he would beat goku and fly into space.



Again show me the page where he say 'Okay i'll not blow it up instantly, i'll instead know i'm facing a superior foe and give you 5 minutes to kill me, that should also give you enough time to escape'



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> half of these points are just stupid, we're not proving if goku can lift anything.  we're saying he can hurt superman, his attacks are ki-enhanced, and i didn't see him powering up or using any ki to lift the bus.  and this isn't a bench pressing competition.  for the rest of the android saga points, i have explained them above.



Yes they are stupid, i can't explain what the writer was thinking too.
If Goku needs 15 minutes of Deep breathing and panting to power up and not the 1/2 second hes gunna get with superman moving at near lightspeed towards him, he'll not survive the first punch.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i already answered this crap earlier.  why would vegeta destroy the planet with goku on it so he can fight him.  you're not making any sense in your post.    buu did not try to destroy the earth with every single attack he made.  WE HAVE SAID TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT DBZ CHARACTERS CAN CONCETRATE ATTACKS.  its not inconsistency, its called control of moves.  like superman controls his heat vision, you're quick to say that, but you're not so quick to say DBZ characters can control they're ki attacks.  use some common sense before you post next time please, and make up new points, cause these are null and void points.



As i said to DYM, i didn't bother reading after page 7, since the fanboys were out in storm, i'd put money on your 'answering this crap' was you posting 'HE CAN TOOOOOOOo!)
If they can control there Ki attacks, why do they control them when they have no interest in anything but distruction (Fat boo, Vegeta, Andriods etc etc etc) Unless your saying every Villian in DBZ is weaker than Master Roshi.

For that matter why didn't Master Roshi take down Boo, according to your thoery he has the same power SS3 Goku has.

As for the common sence bit, i suggest you read the post fully before you reply to me again, infact feel free not to reply as the first post wasn't intended for you anyway


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## korican04 (Feb 12, 2006)

I didn't come here to argue either way, but can someone answer for me this, i couldn't figure it out. 
If goku and vegeta can travel so fast like light speed as people have been mentioning, why couldn't they grab piccolo, gohan and the two kids when they were 2000 feet away when kid buu threw that slow ass ball that blew up the earth? I mean if they were that fast it would have taken them about .00000000001 secs to get them. was it just pis.


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## Rice Ball (Feb 12, 2006)

korican04 said:
			
		

> I didn't come here to argue either way, but can someone answer for me this, i couldn't figure it out.
> If goku and vegeta can travel so fast like light speed as people have been mentioning, why couldn't they grab piccolo, gohan and the two kids when they were 2000 feet away when kid buu threw that slow ass ball that blew up the earth? I mean if they were that fast it would have taken them about .00000000001 secs to get them. was it just pis.



Writers block?
Plot holes?
Half the crap i posted about why DBZ shouldn't be used 

Ignore me, i wanna see a DBZ guy answer


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 12, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> First off I think you meant to say Buu . Second light travels around the earth linearly in 1/7th of a second, which would be much closer to .143 fractions of a second. Also Buu's blasts aren't exactly moving in a linear fashion, nor do they seem to leave in the same billionth of a second as they are all at slightly different lengths on page 28.
> 
> My point is that the entire attack was done in a matter of seconds. People will scream much like in war of the world when you see the person next to you has been blasted by a beam from the sky, but if the beam coming for you left a half a second later than someone unsespecting in front of you there's still a chance for you to run or scream. While I dont pretend there was as much deviation between the leaving time of the beams as in the anime, I'd still say it was significant enough for some people to notice.



Yeah, I meant Buu not Cell, brainfart.  *shrugs*

Assuming that the farthest any of the shots has to travel is halfway around the world, something moving at the speed of light should be able to get there in 1/14th of a second, hence my .07 seconds rather than .143.

Even if Cell shoots for several seconds (which doesn't seem to be the case) thus explaining why the blasts get there over the course of several seconds, that still doesn't explain why people are able to react.  If those were faster-than-light blasts then to observers, people would just appear to fall over dead, the source of the attack would not be readally apparent.  Thus they wouldn't run _from_ a blast like some of the normal humans were.

I am not by any means saying Buu's feat wasn't impressive.  It was quite impressive that he can (presumably) kill 5 billion people with individually controlled chi blasts.  But those blasts are not going at the speed of light, or anywhere in the same neighborhood as the speed of light.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 12, 2006)

first and foremost here is the solar system thing for mejin no kori who based his whole argument on this being speculation

recs

so you can go away now.  cause if you're gonna sit there and say he said that meaning "huh i gathered energy to destroy a solar system, but i'm not gonna put it in this attack" then you just have no common sense and you're in denial.  i explained in an earlier post the comparison that is the truth.  i said and i quote "enough power to destroy a solar system means in lamens terms..........................the power of an explosion that can destroy a solar system was the power that was in the kamehameha."  i put that in lamens terms.  so for you i guess i need to put it in a form for children.  the energy from an explosion that can take out a solar system was in that kamehameha.  cell didn't say i have enough ki to destroy planets lined up, he said i have enough energy to destroy a solar system.  now if he said that when he self-destructed then you would have an argument.  but since it wasn't, you have no argument.  

[QUOTE = Konflikti]Please show me the page where it says 'Okay Goku, lets hold back our powers because if we use them to the full the earth will be destroyed.[/QUOTE]

now we've got to the point where common sense is not used anymore.  i guess you would rather have goku say "hey guys lets blow up the earth and not care about our friends and family, or dende, or the dragonballs"

[QUOTE = RiceBall]As i said to DYM, i didn't bother reading after page 7, since the fanboys were out in storm, i'd put money on your 'answering this crap' was you posting 'HE CAN TOOOOOOOo!)
If they can control there Ki attacks, why do they control them when they have no interest in anything but distruction (Fat boo, Vegeta, Andriods etc etc etc) Unless your saying every Villian in DBZ is weaker than Master Roshi.

For that matter why didn't Master Roshi take down Boo, according to your thoery he has the same power SS3 Goku has.

As for the common sence bit, i suggest you read the post fully before you reply to me again, infact feel free not to reply as the first post wasn't intended for you anyway [/QUOTE]

you really say idiotic things.  roshi HAD to take out the moon, the moon is a lot smaller than the earth, so once again u have no point.  goku doesn't HAVE to destroy an earth, or multiple earths, etc etc etc.

[QUOTE = RiceBall]
Again show me the page where he say 'Okay i'll not blow it up instantly, i'll instead know i'm facing a superior foe and give you 5 minutes to kill me, that should also give you enough time to escape'[/QUOTE]

if you read the manga, which u probably haven't after than comment.  frieza did think he could beat goku using 100 percent full power.  

[QUOTE = Konflikti]It's a serious inconsistency in the feats(this isn't even feat). Just like Supes flying to Saturn in 4 minutes. Just because DBZ has only one writer doesn't mean that we should take everything as granted.[/QUOTE]

well i wasn't the one complaining about the flying to Saturn thing.  my basic point was that yall asked to show pictures, Drunkenyoshimaster brings the pics, and then yall come with excuses.  just like when yall kept saying Toriyama didn't do this, and thats the anime we go by the manga only.  DY brings in the manga, and now yall discredit toriyama and the manga.

[QUOTE = Bullet]Superman doesn't destroy planets, that whould be killing, which he doesn't do. But he has beaten a planet.

Here's Superman beating a PLANET.

Here, Supes goes faster than light (he still havn't shown a limit with his speed either) to quickly defeat a cosmic cannibal planet, who eats Stars to survive.

He takes out this powerful creature effortlessly. Later on, he reheats the entire earth (which I'm sure you've seen)...









And after that he reheats Earth BTW.[/QUOTE]

great pics, i was really askin for the pics cause no one goes off word of mouth these days.  i'm not doubting superman's abilities at all, i'm just tryin to prove that goku's abilities are being totally underrated in this thread.  and this crap with people now discrediting the manga makes it even more foolish.

but here's how i see the superman pic.  i look at it and say damn he is going light speed at the least.  now if that was a goku pic, everyone would be like well i see nothing that says he was going light speed.  thats all speculation.  that has been the basis of this thread ever since the manga pics were put up.

[QUOTE = RiceBall]As i said above, Vegeta CAN survive in space, at this point in the battle he had NO INTEREST in keeping earth in one piece, he just wanted Goku and friends dead.[/QUOTE]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, what, Vegeta is the evolution of a saiyan or something.  did goku happen to miss out on saiyan abilities.  vegeta's interest in the attack was to defeat goku, thats it.



> Yes they are stupid, i can't explain what the writer was thinking too.
> If Goku needs 15 minutes of Deep breathing and panting to power up and not the 1/2 second hes gunna get with superman moving at near lightspeed towards him, he'll not survive the first punch.



i swear, you post just to be posting.  show me where in the buu saga it took goku time to power up to SSJ or SSJ2.  yes he needed time for SSJ3 but that was because it was new for him.  remember goku has been training for 10 years since the buu saga.  but i still don't think he needs anything above SSJ.  no one has even responded to the post where i compared the feats of superman and goku head to head.

[QUOTE = Korican04]I didn't come here to argue either way, but can someone answer for me this, i couldn't figure it out.
If goku and vegeta can travel so fast like light speed as people have been mentioning, why couldn't they grab piccolo, gohan and the two kids when they were 2000 feet away when kid buu threw that slow ass ball that blew up the earth? I mean if they were that fast it would have taken them about .00000000001 secs to get them. was it just pis.[/QUOTE]

well in the situation of the battle goku had to think fast, and getting dende was the most important person to get considering they need the dragonballs and hercule and the puppy happened to be with him.


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## Shiron (Feb 12, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> first and foremost here is the solar system thing for mejin no kori who based his whole argument on this being speculation
> 
> Omfg, Naruto Game Hax?!?!?11
> 
> so you can go away now.  cause if you're gonna sit there and say he said that meaning "huh i gathered energy to destroy a solar system, but i'm not gonna put it in this attack" then you just have no common sense and you're in denial.  i explained in an earlier post the comparison that is the truth.  i said and i quote "enough power to destroy a solar system means in lamens terms..........................the power of an explosion that can destroy a solar system was the power that was in the kamehameha."  i put that in lamens terms.  so for you i guess i need to put it in a form for children.  the energy from an explosion that can take out a solar system was in that kamehameha.  cell didn't say i have enough ki to destroy planets lined up, he said i have enough energy to destroy a solar system.  now if he said that when he self-destructed then you would have an argument.  but since it wasn't, you have no argument.


Still could be lying there (and I still don't agree with you. He could have meant he had gathered enought ki to cause the sun to explode in a supernova. The supernova would have been more than enough to destoy the solar system. And my planet by planet thing still stands. He gathered enough ki so he could run off and start destroying the planets one by one, starting with Earth. Hence him powering up; to get ready for his first planet destroying attack). =/ And there's still this:



> However I think Cell was either refering to the fact that he had the power to destroy the solar system now (possible cause the sun to supernova or bit by bit) or he was just blowing smoke out of his ears and was bluffing. Why do I think this? Well I will explain. *Before Cell revived and got his power boost his full power Kamehameha was said to be able to blow upt he Earth** (This is compounded when goku's full powered Kamehameha was said to be able to blow up the Earth aswell). By my simple bare minimum calculations (your welcome to check them, I did them fast) *the solar system is at the very least more then 70,000,000,000,000 times bigger then the Eart**h. So unless you believe that Cell got a power bost of over 70 TRILLION times his power before then that feat just dosnt make sense*  Atleast Superman's feats are backed up by him actually doing them lol


It's just not consistent with everything else.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 12, 2006)

Meijin no Kori said:
			
		

> Still could be lying there (and I still don't agree with you. He could have meant he had gathered enought ki to cause the sun to explode in a supernova. The supernova would have been more than enough to destoy the solar system. And my planet by planet thing still stands. He gathered enough ki so he could run off and start destroying the planets one by one, starting with Earth. Hence him powering up; to get ready for his first planet destroying attack). =/



This is almost surely the case.  I'd probably vote for the super-nova attack myself.  Math sounds within reason to me:

Freeza was able to destroy Namek, which was roughly the size of earth in one attack, by shooting a Chi blast through the surface of the planet to the core and breaking apart the planet from the inside.

If we assume that the sun could be destroyed by the same method, and if we assume that it takes the same amount of effort to drill to the core of the sun that it does to drill through Namek, we can find that the Sun's about 110x the diameter of the Earth, or 55x the radius.  This would give us a base that Cell is 55x stronger than Freeza.

Looking at the other side of things, assuming Freeza's blast was 1' diameter to the core of Namek, volume wise this is just under 10,000,000m^3 of vaporization.  For Cell to vaporize the entire solar system, he would need to hit an area 1.1x10^26 m^3 (109804917001856000000000000m^3).  This would make him 1.1*10^19 times stronger than Freeza (10980491700185600000 times).

I'll give one more option that's somewhat impressive for Cell.  We know Cell can fire a kamehameha that's strong enough to destroy earth.  Maybe he was able to fire 9 of them at once thus destroying each planet in the solar system in one attack?  Being generous and saying that each blast would be able to destroy Jupiter (Jupiter's radius is about 5.5 times that of Earth) this would make him 49.5x stronger than Freeza, with signifigantly better Chi manipulation skills than the sun example above.

Now, being honest and open minded.  Which sounds closer, 55ish times stronger than Freeza or 1.1*10^19th times stronger than Freeza?  (To make things easy, the "break even" point for this is around 5,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stronger, if it's a number less than that the right answer is "55ish times stronger is closer, but I think it's more than that").

Thanks Meijin no Kori for the start-off point, sorry to include your name in a post that's not really directed at you


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 12, 2006)

Also, if you buy that Cell's blast was big enough to blow up the entire Solar System then you have to say that Cell was planning to kill himself. Cell didnt think he would be able to survive a blast that would blow up the Earth, he though he was gunna kill himself when he tried to self destruct. Instead though, Cell barely survived the blast and healed. Now, if Cell barely survived that blast that was big enough to blow up the world, do you really think that he thought he could survive a blast that was 70 *TRILLION* times bigger then that one?????

Why would cell want to kill himself? At that point he could have easily beat Gohan without a suicidal attack, Gohan was half dead for all Cell knew. He could have just beat down Gohan physically for like 5 more minutes and not killed himself in the process. Why would he want to kill himself when he didnt need to?


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## korican04 (Feb 13, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well in the situation of the battle goku had to think fast, and getting dende was the most important person to get considering they need the dragonballs and hercule and the puppy happened to be with him.


wait, that's a little far fetched if vegeta is suppose to be that fast also, because one, goku saw both, if one of them was really that fast they could have easily gotten both and still had time to talk like they were doing before the ball hit the ground. Not only that but goku couldn't even IT out of there back to the kai planet where he already visted. They weren't even in battle, they were just flying away from buu and talking to each other. Couldn't goku have just ITed to both dende and mr. statan and then IT instantaneously to gohan or the others. Or couldn't have vegeta just flown there and gotten them. But that's just something that was really a bunch of plot driven slowness lol. I mean the whole time in the manga they were talking about how fast they are yet decide not to use it.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 13, 2006)

> Still could be lying there (and I still don't agree with you. He could have meant he had gathered enought ki to cause the sun to explode in a supernova. The supernova would have been more than enough to destoy the solar system. And my planet by planet thing still stands. He gathered enough ki so he could run off and start destroying the planets one by one, starting with Earth. Hence him powering up; to get ready for his first planet destroying attack). =/ And there's still this:



funny how u create a whole situation from the manga.  just read the words and take them as is.  you created a whole different caption and you're not even the author.  he didn't say "i have enough energy to make a sun go supernova" he said "i have enough energy to destroy a solar system".  honestly it is ridiculous how u try to change a whole manga around just to say cell is lying or not that powerful.  when did cell lie in the manga that has made him so much of the habitual liar you put him out to be.



> This is almost surely the case. I'd probably vote for the super-nova attack myself. Math sounds within reason to me:
> 
> Freeza was able to destroy Namek, which was roughly the size of earth in one attack, by shooting a Chi blast through the surface of the planet to the core and breaking apart the planet from the inside.
> 
> ...



umm take into consideration that freeza wasn't at 100 percent full power when he did that blasts, and the fact that no cell was not aiming for a dag on sun, he didn't say he was.  all i saw him aim at was gohan, basically saying that with enough energy to blow up a solar system, gohan would have no means to beat his attack.  that was the point of the statement, he was not aiming to blow up the solar system.  all the math is not required.



> Also, if you buy that Cell's blast was big enough to blow up the entire Solar System then you have to say that Cell was planning to kill himself. Cell didnt think he would be able to survive a blast that would blow up the Earth, he though he was gunna kill himself when he tried to self destruct. Instead though, Cell barely survived the blast and healed. Now, if Cell barely survived that blast that was big enough to blow up the world, do you really think that he thought he could survive a blast that was 70 TRILLION times bigger then that one?????
> 
> Why would cell want to kill himself? At that point he could have easily beat Gohan without a suicidal attack, Gohan was half dead for all Cell knew. He could have just beat down Gohan physically for like 5 more minutes and not killed himself in the process. Why would he want to kill himself when he didnt need to?



Cell was a cocky guy, he had Vegeta in him, so of course he's not gonna go for the easy physical win.  plus that would end the saga kinda bad and not make the fight intense .  look at vegeta, he had cell beaten and let him go transform to be perfect because he wanted to prove how strong he was.  you are also confusing an explosion, with a blasts.  of course cell thought he would't survive the blasts that destroyed the earth, its called SELF-DESTRUCTION.  that was an explosion, not a blasts.  it was not a beam like the kamehameha.  and if it was intended to take out the solar system why would cell not think he could take it.  he thought he couldn't take the earth blasts but he did, and now he came back as Super Perfect Cell (basically SSJ2 Cell).  way more powerful than he ever was.  so he probably did think he could take it if he was actually aiming to destroy the solar system.



> wait, that's a little far fetched if vegeta is suppose to be that fast also, because one, goku saw both, if one of them was really that fast they could have easily gotten both and still had time to talk like they were doing before the ball hit the ground. Not only that but goku couldn't even IT out of there back to the kai planet where he already visted. They weren't even in battle, they were just flying away from buu and talking to each other. Couldn't goku have just ITed to both dende and mr. statan and then IT instantaneously to gohan or the others. Or couldn't have vegeta just flown there and gotten them. But that's just something that was really a bunch of plot driven slowness lol. I mean the whole time in the manga they were talking about how fast they are yet decide not to use it.



yeah i agree with you.  they have done so much with their speed and then they don't at that point.  

last post for awhile, i gotta study, biology test tomorrow.


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## Rice Ball (Feb 13, 2006)

First thing first. Learn how to Quote people please. It makes answering your posts and tedious as reading them.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> first and foremost here is the solar system thing for mejin no kori who based his whole argument on this being speculation



You haven't answered mejin no kori questions, he didn't say he could do it in a single hit




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> now we've got to the point where common sense is not used anymore.  i guess you would rather have goku say "hey guys lets blow up the earth and not care about our friends and family, or dende, or the dragonballs"



You mean they don't and you can't find one, we'll remove that bit of your argument as NULL and Void then 



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> you really say idiotic things.  roshi HAD to take out the moon, the moon is a lot smaller than the earth, so once again u have no point.  goku doesn't HAVE to destroy an earth, or multiple earths, etc etc etc.



Maybe the Idiotic one is the person who came up with this theory (that i have smashed)

Roshi destroyed the Moon with a single hit, more than likely if he fired the same blast at the earth, the earth would be destroyed (or it would ignite the earths atmosphere which would do pretty much the same thing)

According to you, Goku also has the power to do this, but hes constantly holding back, if thats the case, Master Roshi has the same abilites as a SS3 and fires the same power blasts as Goku at SS3.

I think we all agree, that isn't the case, so i guess your theory on DBZ characters focusing there energy isn't true, shame really not that it would even matter if Goku can't use this great power of his against Superman.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, what, Vegeta is the evolution of a saiyan or something.  did goku happen to miss out on saiyan abilities.  vegeta's interest in the attack was to defeat goku, thats it.



Read my above post dumbass, when Vegeta first destroyed a planet he did it from orbit, he also when he was on his 'quest to find the Super Saiyan' spent time in vacums.
Vegeta had already said before this point, this planets going down, he was in the same mindset while fighting as a giant monkey, he had no interest in earth anymore, he just wanted to kill Goku.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i swear, you post just to be posting.  show me where in the buu saga it took goku time to power up to SSJ or SSJ2.  yes he needed time for SSJ3 but that was because it was new for him.  remember goku has been training for 10 years since the buu saga.  but i still don't think he needs anything above SSJ.  no one has even responded to the post where i compared the feats of superman and goku head to head.



So your saying Goku only needs a basic SS powerlevel to beat sups now? was your 'feats' thread just like your other threads here? might be a little clue


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## Viciousness (Feb 13, 2006)

Moogle, not only are your calculations over the top, I dont see how you equate the volume of an object which a being is able to destroy as being directly and linearly related to the Power levels a Saiyajin Scouter picks up (If you dont understand I mean, we have no way of knowing that if I can destroy a rock twice the volume of a rock you can destroy that it will equate to the saiyajin scouter saying im twice as powerful), but you also act as if Freeza was doing the most he possibly could in his destruction of Namek. Super Perfect Cell seemed to be shooting off all he had in that attack. Freeza shot rather quickly and with the intention of not destroying the planet he was on for five minutes since he thought the explosion might kill him. Even Kaio sama knew he was capable of destroying the planet in an instant, and thought he had when he first realized what Freeza was doing.

To add it doesnt seem unreasonable for Super Perfect Cell to have been 55x stronger than Freeza to me anyway. Their powers were building exponentially at this point, and Freeza himself was a good 66x stronger than Ginyu. Plus a blast over a wide area doesnt mean a more powerful blast just a wider one. We learn this when Trunks talks about how he's surprised Vegeta managed to condense his Final Flash into one stream against Perfect Cell, Since it mustve blasted outwardly at a large Circumference previously,



> Roshi destroyed the Moon with a single hit, more than likely if he fired the same blast at the earth, the earth would be destroyed (or it would ignite the earths atmosphere which would do pretty much the same thing)



If Roshi fired the same blast into the earth then before the fraction of a second it takes to stream it long enough to blow up a continent or the moon then the city would probably explode killing Roshi with it. Roshi fired a short stream into the moon. If he had fired a ball that left his hands in an instant its unlikely the impact wouldve been the same.



> According to you, Goku also has the power to do this, but hes constantly holding back, if thats the case, Master Roshi has the same abilites as a SS3 and fires the same power blasts as Goku at SS3.



Goku isnt aiming concentrated streamed blasts into the earth at all his power of course not. The full powered kamehame ha's he's shooting by the time he's as strong or stronger than Buff Roshi using up all his energy are almost always fired at the horizon, or one of them was fired in direct opposition to Vegeta's Garlic Gun which was aimed at the Earth. It takes alot more than a blast capable of destroying the moon to destroy the likes of Cell and Buu. Roshi is no where near having the same power as SSJ3 Goku.



> I think we all agree, that isn't the case, so i guess your theory on DBZ characters focusing there energy isn't true, shame really not that it would even matter if Goku can't use this great power of his against Superman.


 He's not going to aim that power into the ground, but he has no problem aiming it into Superman. Just like Babidi told Buu to hold back when blowing up the city so he doesnt destroy earth, Goku would hold back any blasts that had a high chance of hitting the Earth at this point.




> Read my above post dumbass, when Vegeta first destroyed a planet he did it from orbit, he also when he was on his 'quest to find the Super Saiyan' spent time in vacums.
> Vegeta had already said before this point, this planets going down, he was in the same mindset while fighting as a giant monkey, he had no interest in earth anymore, he just wanted to kill Goku.



First the arlia bit is filler. Second Oozaru Vegeta is firing no name blasts around that probably arent much stronger than the blasts he was shooting around in normal form. His physical power is stronger definately and the magnitude of these no name blasts is 10x what it was before, but I cant remember any of these being steady blasts aimed directly at Earth, nor is there much of a chance they would compete with the power in his ultimate attack, the Garlick Gun. 

If he was firing Garlick Guns from ape form in a small stream at the earth then it wouldve been destroyed. Besides while its obvious by the Buu saga they didnt have to aim these blasts at the core of the planet any longer, and even Freeza's full powered blast probably wouldnt have needed to have been used in such a manner, back then its very possible they may have needed to since that still is a valid manner of destroying the planet slowly.

Third calling unknowndanex a dumbass is a blatant flame. I aint a snitch but if youre getting to the point where you cant control your emotions in an argument maybe you need to take some time away from this thread and chill.
Ill be gone for most of the day anyway with classes and I got a paper to finish in the next couple of hours. Hope that clears up some of the issues you were having with the manga or that you thought were from the manga.


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## Shiron (Feb 13, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> funny how u create a whole situation from the manga.  just read the words and take them as is.  you created a whole different caption and you're not even the author.  he didn't say "i have enough energy to make a sun go supernova" he said "i have enough energy to destroy a solar system".  honestly it is ridiculous how u try to change a whole manga around just to say cell is lying or not that powerful.  when did cell lie in the manga that has made him so much of the habitual liar you put him out to be.


 My point: The manga doesn't state which is true, so each stands a shot of being true. You cannot say Cell menat that, when there's no way of knowing. There was just as great of a chance for Cell to fire several attacks there, each destroying one planet, as there is a chance of him destroying the whole thing with one.

And that still leaves consistencey issues. He had absolutely 0 reason to commit suicide there, unlike when he started to blow up. Why would he commit a suicidal attack when there's no reason?

And then there's the power isssue. He said his strongest attack could destroy the Earth. Now how can he out of the blue become so many more times powerful that he can destroy the entire solar system with one attack? It just doesn't fit.

It seems that the most likely scenarios are that he was either lying or going to do a series of attacks. Of course, what you're saying is a possibility too. We just don't know. And because we don't know, this matter should be laid to rest and not be used as evidence for anything.



			
				DYM said:
			
		

> *Goku isnt aiming concentrated streamed blasts into the earth at all his power of course not.* The full powered kamehame ha's he's shooting by the time he's as strong or stronger than Buff Roshi using up all his energy are almost always fired at the horizon, or one of them was fired in direct opposition to Vegeta's Garlic Gun which was aimed at the Earth. It takes alot more than a blast capable of destroying the moon to destroy the likes of Cell and Buu. Roshi is no where near having the same power as SSJ3 Goku.


Hmm, nice of you to prove this. At least we can find evidence that Supes rarely goes full power and is very concious of what he's doing on Earth.


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## Rice Ball (Feb 13, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Third calling unknowndanex a dumbass is a blatant flame. I aint a snitch but if youre getting to the point where you cant control your emotions in an argument maybe you need to take some time away from this thread and chill.
> Ill be gone for most of the day anyway with classes and I got a paper to finish in the next couple of hours. Hope that clears up some of the issues you were having with the manga or that you thought were from the manga.



Read his above post, calling someone a dumbass when they clearly didn't bother reading what you wrote does seem justified 
As far as flaming go's, i think its funny that your the one to bring this up after your previous post 

Anyway back on topic, we can continue this in PM's if you wish.



> If Roshi fired the same blast into the earth then before the fraction of a second it takes to stream it long enough to blow up a continent or the moon then the city would probably explode killing Roshi with it. Roshi fired a short stream into the moon. If he had fired a ball that left his hands in an instant its unlikely the impact wouldve been the same.



My Point is Goku if this is the case almost never uses his full power, it would also be wise to say he wouldn't use his full power against Superman. (also his full power was only used once in the Series- Against Perfect Cell)
Whats the point of Goku having all these transformations if he doesn't bother using the strenght he gets from them?

Another thing about Oozaru's, when Gohan transformed, he fired lots of shots at the ground, he didn't have ANY control over himself and should have taken down the earth.

Unfortunatly is doesn't clear it up as most of the things your saying theres no proof of, not once in the series do they ever say they are 'holding back' so anything your saying here looks to be a guess on the characters feelings which isn't worth much at this point. As i said the whole DBZ storyline is full of problems and plot holes, thats my main problem with it.


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## Gunners (Feb 13, 2006)

> My point: The manga doesn't state which is true, so each stands a shot of being true. You cannot say Cell menat that, when there's no way of knowing. There was just as great of a chance for Cell to fire several attacks there, each destroying one planet, as there is a chance of him destroying the whole thing with one.
> 
> And that still leaves consistencey issues. He had absolutely 0 reason to commit suicide there, unlike when he started to blow up. Why would he commit a suicidal attack when there's no reason?



He would commit suicide because he would rather die on his own terms than be killed by gohan, part of the sajin pride i beleive, so he didnt have 0 reason to commit suicide, i beleive he thought the attack would kill him also.



> My point: The manga doesn't state which is true, so each stands a shot of being true. You cannot say Cell menat that, when there's no way of knowing. There was just as great of a chance for Cell to fire several attacks there, each destroying one planet, as there is a chance of him destroying the whole thing with one.
> 
> And that still leaves consistencey issues. He had absolutely 0 reason to commit suicide there, unlike when he started to blow up. Why would he commit a suicidal attack when there's no reason?



nah, the attack was probably capable, if he metioned an attack that could destroy the earth, it probably would, but with the solar system destroyer that is converting every part of energy in his body.



> Hmm, nice of you to prove this. At least we can find evidence that Supes rarely goes full power and is very concious of what he's doing on Earth.




It should be obvious to you that they are holding back, if they are able to destroy a planet and get 50 times stronger and simular attacks dont destroy the earth, you should deduce that they are holding back, unless you need everything written in bold.


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## Viciousness (Feb 13, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> Read his above post, calling someone a dumbass when they clearly didn't bother reading what you wrote does seem justified
> As far as flaming go's, i think its funny that your the one to bring this up after your previous post
> 
> Anyway back on topic, we can continue this in PM's if you wish.



Sure we can do pms but there is a difference between calling somone a dumbass or F**ing moron, and critisizing their actions throughout a thread, as I did with tousen, or any slight jests I have made at bullet.



> My Point is Goku if this is the case almost never uses his full power, it would also be wise to say he wouldn't use his full power against Superman. (also his full power was only used once in the Series- Against Perfect Cell)
> Whats the point of Goku having all these transformations if he doesn't bother using the strenght he gets from them?



He never aims his full power at earth,but he definately uses his full power in battle alot.



> Another thing about Oozaru's, when Gohan transformed, he fired lots of shots at the ground, he didn't have ANY control over himself and should have taken down the earth.



Gohans firing rondom no name blasts that arent 10x stronger than his masenko ha, only his normal no name blasts, nor where they fired in steady streams.



> Unfortunatly is doesn't clear it up as most of the things your saying theres no proof of, not once in the series do they ever say they are 'holding back' so anything your saying here looks to be a guess on the characters feelings which isn't worth much at this point. As i said the whole DBZ storyline is full of problems and plot holes, thats my main problem with it.



I can name 4 times off the top of my head it said they were holding back to avoid destroying earth. One is what I just posted scans of Babidi telling buu to be careful. 2 is piccolo telling Gotenks the same. 3 is Gohan saying buu couldve destroyed earth by blowing up if he wasnt holding back. 4 is Trunks explaining to Kurririn how Vegeta modified his blast against Cell at the last moment to avoid destroying Earth since they were shocked he aimed it towards earth from the get go.

Anyway I have to run to class Ill respond to  the rest later if I havent already addressed it .I just posted cuz I finished my paper.


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## Tousenz (Feb 13, 2006)

> critisizing their actions throughout a thread, as I did with tousen,


 

It was only anger from realizing that goku isn't god. All fanboys react that way and I forgave you.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Moogle, not only are your calculations over the top, I dont see how you equate the volume of an object which a being is able to destroy as being directly and linearly related to the Power levels a Saiyajin Scouter picks up (If you dont understand I mean, we have no way of knowing that if I can destroy a rock twice the volume of a rock you can destroy that it will equate to the saiyajin scouter saying im twice as powerful)


I agree, in the real world it generally takes more than twice as much power to do twice as much damage, however since we don't have any idea of scale, I used the easy route.




			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> To add it doesnt seem unreasonable for Super Perfect Cell to have been 55x stronger than Freeza to me anyway. Their powers were building exponentially at this point, and Freeza himself was a good 66x stronger than Ginyu.



I agree, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable within the scope of DBZ for Cell to be 55ish times stronger than Freeza (I actually went into the calculations expecting to see a jump of around 100x).  What I'm trying to do is point out to unknowndanex that it's utterly unreasonable that one attack would destroy the whole solar system.  The power jump is insane from a previous known point.

Even if we assume a stronger Freeza the number for "destroy the whole solar system in one big explosion" is an unreasonably large jump.  The "destroy all the planets in one attack that splits or goes from planet to planet" or "destroy the sun in one attack" numbers seem more realistic.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 13, 2006)

> My point: The manga doesn't state which is true, so each stands a shot of being true. You cannot say Cell menat that, when there's no way of knowing. There was just as great of a chance for Cell to fire several attacks there, each destroying one planet, as there is a chance of him destroying the whole thing with one.
> 
> And that still leaves consistencey issues. He had absolutely 0 reason to commit suicide there, unlike when he started to blow up. Why would he commit a suicidal attack when there's no reason?
> 
> ...



have you taken into consideration that Cell was at his 2nd form when he commited suicide to destroy the earth.  you are acting like perfect cell did this.  so yes Super Perfect Cell could destroy a whole solar system.  like he said.

i guess i don't have to say much to RiceBall since DY cleared that up, cause he was all over the fillers thinking he had a point.

to Evil Moongle

i never said the kamehameha could destroy the solar system, it is a beam.  i said the kamehameha had the energy that would be in an explosion to take out a solar system.  that is what i was saying.  

but if you really wanna use science.  all it really takes is the earth to happen to blow up to destroy the solar system cause it can set the whole universe off balance, DC, DBZ, or Marvel do not take this into consideration though.  just a factoid for you since u got sceintific about destroying the solar system and everything.  but yeah, i stand by that he had the energy of an explosion to take out a solar system in that kamehameha.  and there is no doubt he couldn't output that power considering he outputted an earth destroying power in just his 2nd Form.  The jump from 2nd to Perfect was humongous, and the jump from Perfect to Super Perfect was just as big.  it was actually like a jump from SSJ to SSJ2.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> have you taken into consideration that Cell was at his 2nd form when he commited suicide to destroy the earth.  you are acting like perfect cell did this.  so yes Super Perfect Cell could destroy a whole solar system.  like he said.
> 
> i guess i don't have to say much to RiceBall since DY cleared that up, cause he was all over the fillers thinking he had a point.



Math ahead, DBZ supporters turn your brains off:

Diameter of earth, this is the required radius of an explosion required for a source on the surface of the planet assuming the planet doesn't slow the explosion at all: 12756300m.

Area of an explosion with radius 12756300m = 8690455852503463440000m^3.  A very impressive number.

Radius of an explosion required for a source standing on the surface of the Earth to envelope Pluto (assuming Pluto is at it's closest point to Earth): 5768679040000m.

Area of an explosion with radius 5768679040000m ~= 8.03*10^38 m^3.

Ratio of Area 2 to Area 1: 92481519247681118:1.

That means, _assuming_ destroying an area of "2" is twice as hard as destroying an area "1" (I would expect it to be more than twice as hard), for Cell to destroy the solar system in one explosion.  That's 92 trillion times stronger than he was before.

Is Goku 92 trillion times stronger at the end of the series than he was at the start?  Even if he is, do you think Cell was anything even kinda close to that level of power jump?  No.  He was either talking about destroying the sun or some sort of sequence attack (or just making shit up).


----------



## Rice Ball (Feb 13, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> have you taken into consideration that Cell was at his 2nd form when he commited suicide to destroy the earth.  you are acting like perfect cell did this.  so yes Super Perfect Cell could destroy a whole solar system.  like he said.



Not known. So no proof (Again) thats kinda the story of both your and DYM's attempt to defend here.
Another funny 'plot hole' is the Vegeta self destruct, why was it so weak, yes he didn't want to destroy the earth(as you guys keep saying).
Btw the Spirit Bomb used to Kill Buu was used against earth, and thats said to have the power of everyone in the universe...

My Conclusion is- The Earth Rocks! Kickass strong planet thats tanked hits from everyone! 



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i guess i don't have to say much to RiceBall since DY cleared that up, cause he was all over the fillers thinking he had a point.



Don't blame everything on Fillers, you guys haven't provided a good reason why Goku never fights at full power. Theres also the fact that he wouldn't against superman, you guys can't really deny that.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 13, 2006)

> Math ahead, DBZ supporters turn your brains off:
> 
> Diameter of earth, this is the required radius of an explosion required for a source on the surface of the planet assuming the planet doesn't slow the explosion at all: 12756300m.
> 
> ...



The same way you say he couldnt do those things, it can be said for dc, just except the fact that he could.

Alot of things superman does should have a negative affect on people, like if his vision is as hot as the sun he should burn people near him, or him moving planets, i fail to see the logic in that.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 13, 2006)

to Evil Moongle

i never said the kamehameha could destroy the solar system, it is a beam. i said the kamehameha had the energy that would be in an explosion to take out a solar system. that is what i was saying.

but if you really wanna use science. all it really takes is the earth to happen to blow up to destroy the solar system cause it can set the whole universe off balance, DC, DBZ, or Marvel do not take this into consideration though. just a factoid for you since u got sceintific about destroying the solar system and everything. but yeah, i stand by that he had the energy of an explosion to take out a solar system in that kamehameha. and there is no doubt he couldn't output that power considering he outputted an earth destroying power in just his 2nd Form. The jump from 2nd to Perfect was humongous, and the jump from Perfect to Super Perfect was just as big. it was actually like a jump from SSJ to SSJ2.

didn't know yall already posted

when pointing to fillers, i was pointing out that vegeta can't survive in space.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> to Evil Moongle


Moogle.  EvilMoogle.  @#$2ing humans.  



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i never said the kamehameha could destroy the solar system, it is a beam. i said the kamehameha had the energy that would be in an explosion to take out a solar system. that is what i was saying.



Point still stands.  My calculation works for the "energy" required to destroy the solar system based on the energy in his suicide-explosion.  If he really means to destroy the solar system with a massive explosion like you've emplied, it would need to be that much stronger than his previous attempt to destroy Earth.

If he planned on destroying the solar system with a more effecient means, it could be done with a far smaller jump (or even no jump at all, if we count the "one attack at a time" method).  Did he get a power boost, yes.  Do we know anything at all about how much it is?  No.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> The same way you say he couldnt do those things, it can be said for dc, just except the fact that he could.


This is because for good or for bad Superman has always been displayed as a massive power in the DC universe.  Limiting it to post-crisis Supes, he's been fairly consistant in strength feats and powers and they're at a higher level than Goku.

That's the point the Superman supporters have been trying to make the whole thread.  Superman is stronger, faster, and more durable than Goku, thus he wins this fight.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 13, 2006)

> but if you really wanna use science. all it really takes is the earth to happen to blow up to destroy the solar system cause it can set the whole universe off balance,


 

Wtf no it can't.  Where the hell are you getting this from. If blew up the earth right now no one in the universe would even notice.

Hell if they had people on Mars and they didnt directly monitor Earth they wouldn't know either.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 13, 2006)

> Point still stands. My calculation works for the "energy" required to destroy the solar system based on the energy in his suicide-explosion. If he really means to destroy the solar system with a massive explosion like you've emplied, it would need to be that much stronger than his previous attempt to destroy Earth.
> 
> If he planned on destroying the solar system with a more effecient means, it could be done with a far smaller jump (or even no jump at all, if we count the "one attack at a time" method). Did he get a power boost, yes. Do we know anything at all about how much it is? No.



you do know about the power boost.  toriyama said he could destroy a whole solar system.  its just that yall won't accept it.

now if he self-destructed, yes i think he could've destroyed the solar system if he blew up based on the statement he made.  "i have enough ki gathered up to destroy a solar system" meaning all that ki released in an explosion could blow a solar system.



> Point still stands. My calculation works for the "energy" required to destroy the solar system based on the energy in his suicide-explosion. If he really means to destroy the solar system with a massive explosion like you've emplied, it would need to be that much stronger than his previous attempt to destroy Earth.



and once again, i did not imply that.  i said thats how much energy was in the kamehameha wave, meaning it wasn't an explosion, it was a beam.



> Wtf no it can't. Where the hell are you getting this from. If blew up the earth right now no one in the universe would even notice.
> 
> Hell if they had people on Mars and they didnt directly monitor Earth they wouldn't know either.



take a science class.  the energy that is inside the earth would release from an explosion.  that energy would be enough to throw the universe including the solar system off balance and could destroy the whole solar system.  do you know how much energy is inside the earth?  go read a book, i will not be a professor for today.  but please don't try to challenge me in intellect now.

u're thinking in explosion terms rather in universal  science terms.  there are many factors that go into play if the Earth was to blow up, it could cause a chain of reactions.  



> This is because for good or for bad Superman has always been displayed as a massive power in the DC universe. Limiting it to post-crisis Supes, he's been fairly consistant in strength feats and powers and they're at a higher level than Goku.
> 
> That's the point the Superman supporters have been trying to make the whole thread. Superman is stronger, faster, and more durable than Goku, thus he wins this fight.



this is what i don't get with yall.  yall are quick to accept the superman comics, but are quick to doubt the manga.  yall ask for the manga, DY gives you the manga, and then u still doubt that.  Gotenks flying around the earth more than 5 times, who the hell would wanna draw over 1000 lines around an earth just to point out the obvious.  u see buu destroying planets like nothing, kaio-sama saying frieza can blow up planets like nothing.  now how can u say they can't summon up enough power to take out a solar system?  its just that u refuse to accept it because superman hasn't done it or did better.

now strength feats, yall can have, i'm not out to prove goku can beat superman in a bench pressing comeptition.

but as far as durability and speed goes, no i'm not letting those go.  and when it comes to power (not strength) goku has this.  

i mean superman can go lifting all the stuff he can, but it would prove pointless.  goku can't breathe in space so why would you see goku running through planets like in superman comics.  he's not tryin to mess up planets forreal, he is trying to save them.  goku is a much better fighter, his attacks are ki-enhanced, meaning benching doesn't really matter.  that is why when he is training he is honing his skills making him stronger.  

and superman has not been consistent with powers, (psychic battlefield should i remind you and soul vision).  there are many others but i can't think of them right now.  but superman is an inconsistent character, and has been ever since the silver-age.  he got a power every other month in PC, and now he gets a power every six months in Post-Crisis (random estimate).


----------



## konflikti (Feb 13, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> take a science class.  the energy that is inside the earth would release from an explosion.  that energy would be enough to throw the universe including the solar system off balance and could destroy the whole solar system.  do you know how much energy is inside the earth?  go read a book, i will not be a professor for today.  but please don't try to challenge me in intellect now.
> 
> u're thinking in explosion terms rather in universal  science terms.  there are many factors that go into play if the Earth was to blow up, it could cause a chain of reactions.


You shouldn't lecture people about this stuff since you obviously don't know shit about astrophysics. Stars blow up all the time and no-one notices. Who cares about Earth. There might be minor effects to *our* solar system if Earth just went and blew up, but even they would not be instant.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> you do know about the power boost.  toriyama said he could destroy a whole solar system.  its just that yall won't accept it.


No, the character Cell said it.  People say things all the time, that doesn't make them true.

Plus there are quite a few different ways to "destroy a whole solar system."  You're obsessed with the most difficult one of them, but no one in the series even implied that that is what he was doing.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> now if he self-destructed, yes i think he could've destroyed the solar system if he blew up based on the statement he made.  "i have enough ki gathered up to destroy a solar system" meaning all that ki released in an explosion could blow a solar system.


Then you think he was 92 trillion times stronger than he was before.  I guess you're free to think that but that doesn't seem to fit with anything else in the series (even and especially the strength of the initial forms of Buu).




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and once again, i did not imply that.  i said thats how much energy was in the kamehameha wave, meaning it wasn't an explosion, it was a beam.


But right up above this you say that if he were to focus that chi into an explosion it would have been big enough to take out the solar system.  Who cares if the attack he used was a beam not an explosion?




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> take a science class.  the energy that is inside the earth would release from an explosion.  that energy would be enough to throw the universe including the solar system off balance and could destroy the whole solar system.  do you know how much energy is inside the earth?  go read a book, i will not be a professor for today.  but please don't try to challenge me in intellect now.


Um, pass some of your science classes before lecturing here.  The Earth isn't a star, if it were to crack apart there wouldn't be a massive nuclear explosion.  There might be a minor explosion from the core which would spread around bits of rock but the solar system as a whole wouldn't notice any more than adding a second asteroid belt.

The universe as a whole wouldn't notice at all.  I suppose you could argue that the gravitational balance of the universe would be slightly shifted, and maybe in a few trillion years something would look different because of this, but I'd hardly call it the end of the universe.

About the only threat to the solar system would be if the Earth imploded suddenly and formed a small second star, however basic knowledge will tell you that there isn't enough matter or energy contained within the Earth to do that.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> u're thinking in explosion terms rather in universal  science terms.  there are many factors that go into play if the Earth was to blow up, it could cause a chain of reactions.


I see the light now, you don't think in terms of probability.  I see.  I suppose there is a very small chance that in the Earth's destruction could send a chunk of rock fast and hard enough to collide with Mars and destroy Mars sending a small chunk or rock towards Venus...

Just like I suppose there's a small chance that Superman will slip in a pool of Goku's blood and trip into a wall of kryptonite daggers that just happened to be moving by.

But I don't think this is the average outcome of the fight.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> this is what i don't get with yall.  yall are quick to accept the superman comics, but are quick to doubt the manga.  yall ask for the manga, DY gives you the manga, and then u still doubt that.  Gotenks flying around the earth more than 5 times, who the hell would wanna draw over 1000 lines around an earth just to point out the obvious.  u see buu destroying planets like nothing, kaio-sama saying frieza can blow up planets like nothing.  now how can u say they can't summon up enough power to take out a solar system?  its just that u refuse to accept it because superman hasn't done it or did better.



I don't doubt feats that are properly accounted for in Goku's manga.  I do doubt things that are just rumor, such as vague claims that Cell makes.  I'm not bringing up times that Lois has said Superman's invincible because I don't think that's an accurate claim of his abilities.  Just like when Superman says he'll never lose "to the likes of you."  This is a claim, but not backed by concrete proof.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> but as far as durability and speed goes, no i'm not letting those go.  and when it comes to power (not strength) goku has this.


Superman's been punched through the entire planet.   Goku hasn't been hit by anything near that level of power, so you can't claim he has durability on Superman.  If you disagree I'll welcome the proof.

We've already had the speed debate, and I'm still waiting for evidence there.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 13, 2006)

> Wtf no it can't. Where the hell are you getting this from. If blew up the earth right now no one in the universe would even notice.
> 
> Hell if they had people on Mars and they didnt directly monitor Earth they wouldn't know either.
> __________________



Yeh it would, because we orbit the same sun and what not, it would have an effect on their space in space sort of thing.




> You shouldn't lecture people about this stuff since you obviously don't know shit about astrophysics. Stars blow up all the time and no-one notices. Who cares about Earth. There might be minor effects to our solar system if Earth just went and blew up, but even they would not be instant.
> __________________



Stars are far away from us, and their gravity has nothing to do with ours.


----------



## Rice Ball (Feb 13, 2006)

Sorry for calling you a dumbass unknowndanex.

Was just a little annoyed at you not reading what i wrote, no hard feelings.


----------



## Bullet (Feb 13, 2006)

> this is what i don't get with yall. yall are quick to accept the superman comics, but are quick to doubt the manga. yall ask for the manga, DY gives you the manga, and then u still doubt that. Gotenks flying around the earth more than 5 times, who the hell would wanna draw over 1000 lines around an earth just to point out the obvious. u see buu destroying planets like nothing, kaio-sama saying frieza can blow up planets like nothing. now how can u say they can't summon up enough power to take out a solar system? its just that u refuse to accept it because superman hasn't done it or did better.



They can't destroy Solar systems because even the Buu wasn't capable of that, unless you think Cell is more powerful then him. The we see them being badly hurt by physical force and only city/moutain destroying blasts, and rocks. They can blow up planets, but it's not by destoying it in one shot, they always charge there attacks, then force there blasts through.




> but as far as durability and speed goes, no i'm not letting those go. and when it comes to power (not strength) goku has this.



Superman is faster and way more durable than any DBZ character. What has any DBZ character ever shown that proves they're faster, stronger, and more durable than Superman?



> i mean superman can go lifting all the stuff he can, but it would prove pointless. goku can't breathe in space so why would you see goku running through planets like in superman comics. he's not tryin to mess up planets forreal, he is trying to save them.



Goku won't be able to do the things Superman does anyways, since he was never shown to be that strong, the stuff Goku struggled to lift, Superman could easily do with little effort. 



> goku is a much better fighter, his attacks are ki-enhanced, meaning benching doesn't really matter. that is why when he is training he is honing his skills making him stronger.



Superman is also a very skilled fighter even more then Goku. Superman was trained by WW (who's an even better fighter then Batman), Batman, Mongul II,he knows his own Kryptonian MAs, and has 1,000 of years worth of battle experince to add with that. Even before having trainning and stuff, he was still a pretty good fighter on his own. Superman even uses pressure points, so he's not just learnning for nothing.




> and superman has not been consistent with powers, (psychic battlefield should i remind you and soul vision).



Superman has stayed consistent, he has used both of those abilities a few times, so there actually real abilities that he uses.




> there are many others but i can't think of them right now. but superman is an inconsistent character, and has been ever since the silver-age.



Post-Crisis has stayed consistent.



> he got a power every other month in PC, and now he gets a power every six months in Post-Crisis (random estimate).



Look above.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2006)

Seriously, if you don't understand math and physics, don't argue in physics discussions.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Yeh it would, because we orbit the same sun and what not, it would have an effect on their space in space sort of thing.


It would have an effect, yes.  Would it be a noticable effect?  No.  Would it destroy them?  Most definatly no.




			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Stars are far away from us, and their gravity has nothing to do with ours.


Do stars have mass?  Yes.  Does mass have a gravitional effect on anything else with mass porportionate to the distance between them?  Yes.  Given the extreme range other stars are it wouldn't be a signifigant effect (much like that of the Earth blowing up on Mars), but it would have some effect that may be noticed a few trillion years later.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 13, 2006)

> You shouldn't lecture people about this stuff since you obviously don't know shit about astrophysics. Stars blow up all the time and no-one notices. Who cares about Earth. There might be minor effects to our solar system if Earth just went and blew up, but even they would not be instant.



number one, earth's gravitational rotation affects all the planets rotating around the sun.  so stars have nothing to do with this.  u need to read a book too.  get yo shit straight.

evil moogle u obviously know nothing about the energy inside of earth as i knew.



			
				EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Do stars have mass? Yes. Does mass have a gravitional effect on anything else with mass porportionate to the distance between them? Yes. Given the extreme range other stars are it wouldn't be a signifigant effect (much like that of the Earth blowing up on Mars), but it would have some effect that may be noticed a few trillion years later.



honestly the closes star is 4.3 light years away, that is much further than the planets or the sun.  really do something with your life and read a book.

if earth was to go away, it does influence that too.  because the stars are affected by the solar system as well.  the only way that everything remains stable is if the sun goes out causing the earth to go away as well.  solar systems are formed together and they die together.  if the earth goes out before its time, yes it will potentially destroy the entire solar system.

please read up on your physics and astronomy.



> They can't destroy Solar systems because even the Buu wasn't capable of that, unless you think Cell is more powerful then him. The we see them being badly hurt by physical force and only city/moutain destroying blasts, and rocks. They can blow up planets, but it's not by destoying it in one shot, they always charge there attacks, then force there blasts through.



buu was destroying the planets with minimum effort.  and like i said numerous times as well, DBZ characters are usually busy fighting instead of showing feats.  thats why its way more exciting to read or watch than DC is.



> Superman is also a very skilled fighter even more then Goku. Superman was trained by WW (who's an even better fighter then Batman), Batman, Mongul II,he knows his own Kryptonian MAs, and has 1,000 of years worth of battle experince to add with that. Even before having trainning and stuff, he was still a pretty good fighter on his own. Superman even uses pressure points, so he's not just learnning for nothing.



look goku has trainied in otherworld with a gods over galaxies and other dead people with 1000s of years of experience.  he got training from kami, he got training from karin.  i would take that over what superman got.

for the rest of your comments, no.  post-crisis is very inconsistent and DC itself is very inconsistent.



> Superman is faster and way more durable than any DBZ character. What has any DBZ character ever shown that proves they're faster, stronger, and more durable than Superman?



DrunkenYoshimaster has posted manga scans basically showin goku do what yall showed superman doing and bragging about.  aside from the psychic battlefied and stuff he does in space, and that is why? goku doesn't breathe in space.  



			
				EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> No, the character Cell said it. People say things all the time, that doesn't make them true.
> 
> Plus there are quite a few different ways to "destroy a whole solar system." You're obsessed with the most difficult one of them, but no one in the series even implied that that is what he was doing.



who wrote DBZ again?  if cell says something in the manga, isn't that coming from toriyama?  and can you show me any point where Cell has lied to have to call his character basically a liar so much?


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> number one, earth's gravitational rotation affects all the planets rotating around the sun.  so stars have nothing to do with this.  u need to read a book too.  get yo shit straight.
> 
> evil moogle u obviously know nothing about the energy inside of earth as i knew.


True, but it's the Sun that keeps them in orbit.  The Earth's affect on Mars is negligable.

The Earth could vanish tomorrow and Mars and Venus would stay in their orbits without issue.  There is no "intricate balance" between them.

If you want to give evidence to your claim, bring forward a book not written by Dr. Suess and we'll talk.  All the physics books I've read say otherwise.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> honestly the closes star is 4.3 light years away, that is much further than the planets or the sun.  really do something with your life and read a book.
> 
> if earth was to go away, it does influence that too.  because the stars are affected by the solar system as well.  the only way that everything remains stable is if the sun goes out causing the earth to go away as well.  solar systems are formed together and they die together.  if the earth goes out before its time, yes it will potentially destroy the entire solar system.


Paragraph 1: "Other stars are far away, the Earth won't affect it."
Paragraph 2: "But if the Earth has problems, boy the whole universe is screwed."

See the problem.

It could potentially destroy the solar system in the sort of random statistical fact, but essentially i won't.  Hell, *the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter is most likely from a formar planet that broke apart, but Earth managed to survive that okay.*



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> please read up on your physics and astronomy.[/quote[
> Dude, I'm a college graduate with a technical degree.  I know more about physics than you do.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 13, 2006)

1. The Earth being destroyed would have minimal effect on the solar system as a whole. Maybe change a few orbits a bit to compensate but nothing drastic.

2. If you accept Cell's statement as fact then you are basically saying that Super Perfect Cell was over 90 trillion times stronger then 2nd form Cell, and still tens of trillions times stronger then Perfect cell. You are also basically saying that Cell was gunna commit suicide when he had absolutely no reason to. Neither of these make any scense and what a character says does not automatically mean its true unless its backed up by facts and/or logic, the cell statement has neither to back it up.

3. However, lets assume cell's statement was true for a minute. That would mean, logically, that SSJ2 Vegita had enough Ki to destroy the solar system aswell right? After all he was way stronger then SSJ2 Gohan who defeated Cell. So that means that Vegita's self-destruct contained way more energy then is needed to destroy a solar system. Ok, but you guys *say* that he just condensed the energy so that he didnt destroy his family and stuff. Ok, that kinda makes sence, but lets think about this for a minute. When energy is compressed to a small volume it does far more damage then when it is spread over a large area. So that means if a full spread explosion of Vegita's was capable of destroying the solar system, a super condensed explosion would hae had billions (trillions probably) of times more destructive power then that. HOWEVER, when Vegita self-destructed Buu was hit with the full force of the blast and he was reduced to pieces on the ground, there was still fully formed pieces of Buu on the ground. Yet later when Buu shot a blast that was powerful enough to destroy the Earth, Buu was *completely vapourized*. There was no pieces of him left, just dust. Wait a minute, that dosnt make sense at all. Shouldnt have Vegita's blast been trillions^2 of times more powerful then an explosion that destroyed the Earth??? Yet Buu was more damaged by the Earth destroying explosion then he was by Vegita's supposed Solar System destroying explosion. Just another nail in the coffin for Cell's boast.

4. Whether Goku's punches are Ki enhanced or not it dosnt matter. That all is calculated into punching force whether the force comes from pure strength or Ki enhanced. When Goku punches without holding back people they go flying into the ground and make a relatively small crater. When Superman punches people they go flying halfway accross the world at super sonic speeds. No contest here, Superman punches harder then Goku by a loooooooong shot.

5. Superman is infintely more durable then Goku. Ive shown DBZ people takeing a beating and it aint pretty at all. Superman takes stronger punches then any DBZ character could throw and laughs.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2006)

Just to confirm a few things:



			
				EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> If the Earth were to be destroyed tomorrow, would there be any discernable impact on Mars?





			
				Physics BS/Applied Math PhD said:
			
		

> My guess is that there would be no effect on Mars.  I
> I would think that most asteroid debris would stay
> near Earth's current orbit and earth isn't big
> enough to affect Mars' orbit.  So, my professional
> ...



If you're going to argue this point further, please provide evidence with someone with better qualifications than a Physics BS and a Math PhD.


----------



## Bullet (Feb 13, 2006)

> unknowndanex: look goku has trainied in otherworld with a gods over galaxies and other dead people with 1000s of years of experience. he got training from kami, he got training from karin. i would take that over what superman got.



Never said that Goku havn't been trianed, I was just proving that Superman (and actually has a 1,000 years of experince, not just the people he trained with) has also been trained and has used his skills he learned in combat plenty of times, he's good a fighter no matter how much you don't like to excepted it. 




> for the rest of your comments, no. post-crisis is very inconsistent and DC itself is very inconsistent.



No. Post-Crisis has stayed consistent with Superman.


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## Id (Feb 13, 2006)

Lets compare each other.

*Who is physically stronger. Goku or Superman?- Im going with Superman
Why?
I have shown him Moving a planet.
Going right thru a mountain.
Hitting Lobo so hard he went strait into orbit.
Curling 300 quan trillion tons.
Casually throwing a space ship.

*Who is more durable. Goku or Superman? Im going with Superman.
Why?
Getting up from a Megaton nuclear weapon. 
Surviving Megadon - witch is said to have the power to annihilate half a galaxy 
Being hit so hard he goes right thru the planet and lands on another planet.
Resisting a black hole.
Resisting reality altering powers.

As well as surviving attacks and items that do critical damage.
Kryptonite- everyone know that?s one of his weakness yet I have posted scans were he is breathing kryptonite debree and still keeps on fighting.
Magical attacks- Survives encounter with Black Adam, Shazaam, Etrigan.
The Red Sun. He dipped into the red sun, he barely survived yet he did.

*Who is faster? Goku or Superman? I go with Superman.
Ok I acknowledge that Goku moves at or close to the speed of light in battle. And even has a small tactical advantage with instant transition. 

But Superman does fight at the speed of light. And goes beyond the speed of light when he enters flight mode. 

He reached the moon in Venus in 4 min. 
And has fought opponents doing Orbital smash.

Phasing is a trick that Supes learned from Flash to avoid being hit.
Vibrating- he vibrate so fast he becomes invisible (not for a short moment but for prolong period of time)

Who is to say that Superman wont do orbital smash at 4x the speed of light on Goku?

*Intellect? Goku or Superman? I have to give this one to Superman.
Why?
Supes can analyze and understanding genetic structures by just "glancing!
Supes can analyze the melting point of character!

Im sorry but I have never seen Goku do any feat that comes close to those.

Fighting. Goku or Superman? Tie.
Why?
Both have lots of experience fighting all sorts of fighters.
If anything Superman has a longer track record since he has bin out much longer then Goku has so I wont hold DBZ against that.

*Abilities. Goku or Superman?
Heat Vision- It can reach higher temperatures then the Sun. (If you cant read the text from the scan then save it to your hard drive and then magnify it. It clearly states it)

Freeze Breath- 

Physic powers- Telepathy, a certain level of Psionic powers.

Soul Vision-

Magnifying Vision

X-ray Vision. 

The ability to survive in Outer space unaided.

Grows stronger- (he states to Doomsday that after his experience with Imprex he has become stronger)

Exposure to the sun makes him more powerful. Also a quick dip in the sun rejuvenates/regenerates/supercharges him.


Most advantages go to Superman. Its not that Goku is weak, its just that Superman is written to be damn near impossible to kill with the ability to grow stronger or have quick upgrades. 
(the wind can blow and Superman can become 2x stronger)


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## Tousenz (Feb 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Physics BS/Applied Math PhD*
> _My guess is that there would be no effect on Mars._


 


			
				 The almight Tousen said:
			
		

> Hell if they had people on Mars and they didnt directly monitor Earth they wouldn't know either.


 

Yeah.... looks mighty similar.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Yeah.... looks mighty similar.



I agree, and I stated it myself, however our lowly uneducated opinions weren't apparently good enough for the scientific genious that is unknowndanex so I recruited outside aid.

Also for the record, 100% of my office agrees that there'd be no signifigant impact (though one of them was of the opinion that there would be a minor increase in cosmic dust reaching Mars and I guess I'm inclined to agree but that doesn't fall in my range of "signifigant").


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## Bender (Feb 13, 2006)

*whistles* Good analysis Id 

Let me throw some knowledge for y'all to hear.Ok, I kinda agree Super man does kinda beat Goku in all areas.But both have the same feats.As Vegeta stated as Saiyans fight they grow stronger then ever before.Also If I remember,Goku is pretty much close to traveling to the speed of light.If notice his instant transmission he transport back and forth concentrating on Super man's ki and move back and forth smacking him around.Also I'm right it takes him at least 5 seconds to find Super man and can take his back.Also added to his Kamehameha does ten times the Damage Super mans pathetic little heat vision does.

Also in Goku's technique Kaio ken doubles his speed and he's able to go faster If he does Kaio ken times X 10 which he can catch up to him.Plus,He's able to Go Super Saiyan in this battle he can beat Superman harder in Super Saiyan 2 which speed go faster. In 3 seed sky rockets and he,ll pound Super man harder.The form I hate the most Super saiyan 4 he,ll anihilate him easily since all strikes have hardly any effect against him. 

Also let's add Solar flare Goku can blind Super man using that move and then sneak away and Go Super saiyan 4 which his Spirit bomb (Jap Genki Dama)  can be the same size of the earth.Now let's think how Super man can react to that. He,ll charge Goku and what,ll happen two letters describe ths : K.O!


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## unknowndanex (Feb 13, 2006)

> If the Earth were to be destroyed the inner planets would be to first to catch a major impact.  The sun would cause an increase in radial acceleration of bodies in its vincinity.  ~Dr. Sten Oswald- NASA Astronomer - Harvard PhD (1982)



Planets move at different speeds because the sun's gravity affects them at different distances.  It would take the planets out of equilibrium which would be disastrous to the whole solar system.  The state of equilibrium is what keeps the planets in orbit around the sun, if the sun accelerates the speed of the planets spin they could drift out of the suns orbit.

and 100 percent of the people here at UVA including professors agree with me.



> Than you agree that Ranma-neko could take out Goku? Bleh. Hell, Vegeta said he could handle Goku multiple times. Vegeta said that only a Saijyin of royal blood can become SSJ. Guess we better lower Goku's abilites to match because Vegeta's lines were written by Toriyama.
> 
> Plus you're assuming when you say that he could do it in a massive explosion rather than triggering the sun to go supernova. Heck, Freeza probably couldn't have destroyed a planet if the core didn't cause it to explode.



Vegeta beat Goku in the Saiyan Saga, they stalemated when they both fought at SSJ2.  The record says...................Vegeta 1-0-1.  Vegeta also knew nothing about SSJ3 the second fight.  So that point kinda sucks.  So i guess Vegeta was pretty much right with the knowledge of goku he though the had.

And considering Frieza has already destroyed planets, then yes he can destroy planets.  He did destroy Planet Vegita.

As for the Royal Blood comment.  Vegeta looked at Goku as a low-class warrior and he was a prince.  So of course Vegeta is gonna say that a prestigious honor known as SSJ would go to the prestigous Royal Family.  But here's the difference, Cell was fully charged up with power (after he blew up a planet in his 2nd Form) saying how much power he had.  Last time i checked Vegeta wasn't standing with gold hair saying this is for royal family.


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## Tousenz (Feb 13, 2006)

> and 100 percent of the people here at UVA including professors agree with me.


 

Im sorry to say your silly community college is dumb.



Every body in the solar system (and indeed the Universe) attracts gravitationally every other body. This principle is known as Newton's Theory of Universal Gravitation. Newton deduced that the strength of the attraction (or the force) between two objects (like 2 planets or stars) depends on both their masses and the distance between them. The bigger the masses or the smaller the distance between them, the stronger they attract each other. For example, if you have two stars which are attracting one another, and you replace one of them with a star which has twice the mass, the attractive force between the two stars is doubled. Similarly, if you have two stars attracting each other and you double the distance between them, the force of attraction is 1/4 what it was. 



We can use Newton's Theory of Universal Gravitation to calculate the effect of Earth's gravity on other planets in the solar system. If we calculate the force of gravity between Earth and Venus when Venus is at its closest point to Earth (and therefore when the gravitational attraction between Earth and Venus is strongest), we find that the attraction between Earth and Venus is almost 50,000 times weaker than the attraction between Venus and the Sun! Using the same equations, the gravitational pull between Earth and Jupiter is found to be more than 200,000 times weaker than the pull of gravity between Jupiter and the Sun! 




The Sun is so much more massive than every other body in the solar system that its gravitational force dominates the motion of the planets, overwhelming the contribution of a small planet like Earth. The only body in the solar system for which Earth's gravitational attraction is close to that of the Sun is the Moon because the Moon is so close to the Earth. 





So if the Earth were suddenly to disappear entirely, the structure of the solar system would be essentially the same (minus the Earth, of course). [Also, the Moon's orbit would change substantially, though it would remain at about the same distance from the Sun and continue to orbit the Sun. Moderator] 


* Newton's Gravitational Law can be written mathematically as 

GMm F = --- r^2where F is the force, G is what is known as the gravitational constant, M and m are the masses of the two bodies, and r is the distance between them. [r^2 means that one squares the value of r or multiplies it by itself.]


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## Bullet (Feb 13, 2006)

My brain is starting to hurt from reading you guys posts now.


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## Tousenz (Feb 13, 2006)

> My brain is starting to hurt from reading you guys posts now


 
But your still young its going all come natural later.


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## Bullet (Feb 13, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> But your still young its going all come natural later.



I hope so.  Anyways, I think I'll sit back and learn from ya'll post!


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## Id (Feb 13, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> My brain is starting to hurt from reading you guys posts now.



I know. In OB were a pair of characters take on each other (who also happen to bend/break the laws of gravity and thermodynamics)

We are going a lil of topic don?t you think.


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## Tousenz (Feb 13, 2006)

and I got mines off the net anyway just to make sure I wasn't slipping. 

Im just a lowly. Electrical Engineer what do I know about gravity


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## Id (Feb 13, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> and I got mines off the net anyway just to make sure I wasn't slipping.
> 
> Im just a lowly. Electrical Engineer what do I know about gravity



Superman seems to know more than you.


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## Tousenz (Feb 13, 2006)

> Superman seems to know more than you.


 
Only way I can see him pushing with 400 quintillion tons and not being pushed through the Earth and the whole Black hole deal is absurd..... its not even a hole.


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## Bullet (Feb 13, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> I know. In OB were a pair of characters take on each other (who also happen to bend/break the laws of gravity and thermodynamics)
> 
> We are going a lil of topic don?t you think.



Yes, it is off topic, something like this always happen in a Superman or Goku thread. 

Curse Superman vs. Goku threads!


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Only way I can see him pushing with 400 quintillion tons and not being pushed through the Earth and the whole Black hole deal is absurd..... its not even a hole.


Actually, they've addressed this in the comics.  Apparently Superman has some sort of gravitational powers (though they seem to be largely unconcious) that explain why it is he can pick up a 50 ton truck but not sink into the ground.

I would guess essentially he "flys" when he picks something heavy up so that he doesn't destroy the environment around him.

Now, how the Hulk does it remains a mystery 

And Bullet, be careful who you learn from, in the OB whenever physics colilde someone's in the wrong every time, you don't want to learn the wrong things 

Now back to the question.  Mars circles the sun in a roughly eliptical orbit.  This is basic astro-physics, but it addresses a few key points in our physics lesson for the day.  First of all, you'll note that Mars circles the sun, not Earth which shows that the Sun is putting a much larger amount of force on Mars than the Earth is (if Earth was much greater it would orbit the Earth like the moon does, and if they were on the same order of magnitude then you would notice either a binary orbit or a sinusoidal orbit based on the difference in location between Earth and Mars throughout te Martian year).

As to Mr. Oswald's quote I'm going to have to ask for a source for that one as I can't seem to confirm that quote online.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 14, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> Im sorry to say your silly community college is dumb.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



your college must really suck if you don't know about the University of Virginia.

what do you know about gravity.  honestly if you goin by newton's laws for this then you are clearly mistaking.  newton's laws are facing contradictions these days and they only apply to earth.  have you ever heard of Modern Science.  Newton tested objects according to Earth's gravity.

In 1900 it was proposed by Lorentz that Newton's law of gravitation is not valid and proposed gravitational waves which propagated with the velocity of light.

Einstein also found flaws in Newton's theory when he was working on General Relativity.  He expanded on Newton's laws, but also changed a lot of them in his theory.  Venus was 10 percent heavier than what was thought back then.  Mercury advanced in perihelion 43" instead of 38" every century.

Newton's own words on his theory:"I wish we could derive the rest of the phenomena of nature by the same kind of reasoning from mechanical principles; for I am induced by many reasons to suspect that they may all depend upon certain forces by which the particles of bodies, by some causes hitherto unknown, are either mutually impelled towards each other, and cohere in regular figures, or are repelled and recede from each other; which forces being unknown, philosophers have hitherto attempted the search of nature in vain."

Although General Relativity is, as a theory, more accurate than Newton's law of gravity, it also requires a significantly more complicated mathematical formalism. Instead of describing the effect of gravitation as a "force", Einstein introduced the concept of curved space-time in which bodies move along curved trajectories.

Newton did not take planetary rotation into consideration.  Which like i said would increase due to the sun if the earth exploded.  It is a universal law that a solar system is born together and is supposed to die together.  the planets rotation are at a speed of equilibrium which is why they are neither being pulled by the sun, or drifting off into orbit.  You do know what equilibrium is right?  This is info from astronomers and modern day people, something you obviously never heard of.

To my knowledge, this distinction has never been made in physics, not even by Newton himself - action forces do not exist in our world of observations, only reaction forces exist there. Hence, Newton's third law is only mathematically correct, but physically it is wrongly formulated, as it ignores the correct definition of "force".

i think i'm approaching character limit............

but to keep in battle i'll just say uhhhhhhhhhh Goku wins


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## Viciousness (Feb 14, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> I agree, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable within the scope of DBZ for Cell to be 55ish times stronger than Freeza (I actually went into the calculations expecting to see a jump of around 100x).  What I'm trying to do is point out to unknowndanex that it's utterly unreasonable that one attack would destroy the whole solar system.  The power jump is insane from a previous known point.
> 
> Even if we assume a stronger Freeza the number for "destroy the whole solar system in one big explosion" is an unreasonably large jump.  The "destroy all the planets in one attack that splits or goes from planet to planet" or "destroy the sun in one attack" numbers seem more realistic.



But youre making three very wrong assumptions. 

One that anything showed Namek to be the greatest thing Freeza could destroy. For starters he fired a blast he barely put any effort into and seemed to have tons of energy left to fight later, not to mention he didnt want to blow the planet up instantly which Kaio-sama well knew he was capable. For all we know if Freeza put everything he had into a blast he coulde destroyed a  planet several times larger than namek if he put everything he had into it and aimed it at the ground.

Two that the volume of an object which youre able to destroy linearly relates to someones powerlevel. A person with a power level of 10 may not be able to blow up a building in their most powerful ki attack. But someone with a powerlevel off 500, 50 times that may be able to destroy a moon which is far greater than 50 times the size of any building.

And 3, that if cell truly intended to destroy the Universe in one attack, couldve avoidined condensing all that energy into a steady stream but instead blasted it outwardly in all directions across the solar system destroying every planet in its path, and with enough energy to destroy the sun. We already know from Trunks talking to Kurririn about Vegeta's Final Flash attack that it is possible for too much energy to be fired in an uncondensed form, which would cause a greater volume of destruction to the surrounding region, namely the solar system, than a single concentrated blast. 

To add you talked about cell's explosion size first off. Even if they couldnt control the size of their explosions and condense them which is already proven by Gohan's line about buu later in the series, It should be obvious that a stream blast can be fired to travel off in a direction for far longer than the person is holding it, whereas an outward exolosion might not have the radius to reach the sun even if it contains more energy. An Explosion of ki is going to go in a 3 dimensional plane , whereas a stream fired in a circle outwards can still be done in a 2 dimentional plane, reaching further with the same amount of energy.



			
				Tousen said:
			
		

> Im sorry to say your silly community college is dumb.



Tousen I'm sorry to go on you like this but honsetly that has to be the most ignorant statement Ive heard sprouted all day. You do realize that The University of Virginia is the top rated public University in the nation. Either number one or number two. It's also one of the oldest most prestigious outside of the Ivy Leagues. To call it a silly community college is pure ignorance, I hope  for your sake you were joking.

Also we're not only talking about Earth dissapearing from the Universe entirely, he's saying if the earth explodes outwardly sending shockwaves in addition to its pull on the inner planets, as long as they arent on the other side of the sun, there's a good chance they will be affected. These planets have been rotationg as is for billions of years, if something goes seriously off in that rotation its very likely it will probably have some affect on those bodies closest to it. But regardless why are we debating this when it has no real affect on the outcome of the current battle.

IMO we've proven that Goku and Co are capable of moving at light speed in close combat from the perespective of people reasonable like ID. We've proven that Goku can fire blasts at light speed, , and with far greater power than would be needed to destroy a planet much larger than earth to say the least, and possibly enough energy to destroy the solar system. They can hold these blasts and put more power into them over time while it is hitting a target, they can fire these blasts while hidden from Superman, and several at a time, they are fast enough to dodge him if he tries to bumrush them or take them to space, and Goku has a technique that will allow him to move instantly catching Supes off guard.or move himself back to earth in the event that SUpes does manage to get him that far.

We also know that Superman's max speed as stated as being 99% light speed, and this is probably the most recognized max speed for Superman by DC comics. ID posted a picture of Supes struggling to move a city through space, or maybe even a section though he said it was a planet, if you look closely you can tell that it was a city ripped from a planet. Supes may be physically stronger than Goku, but this isnt going to be a Wrestlying match. Supes may have more punching power as well, but him having more punching power than the destructive power in SSJ2 or 3 Goku's blasts is unlikely. What more is needed to destroy Superman, and has been shown in the past to be necessary to defeat him.



			
				Tousen said:
			
		

> It was only anger from realizing that goku isn't god. All fanboys react that way and I forgave you.



Let's see, even assuming I was a fanboy who beleived goku is god, wouldnt I be angry at someone who actually worked to prove something against that like say ID or Scorpio, rather than someone acting as their cheerleader? Lol tousen, you really blind?


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## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

> Let's see, even assuming I was a fanboy who beleived goku is god, wouldnt I be angry at someone who actually worked to prove something against that like say ID or Scorpio, rather than someone acting as their cheerleader?



Idk fanboyz are strange like that.


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## Viciousness (Feb 14, 2006)

lol, man u got jokes. But I guess we cant keep this thread too serious.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 14, 2006)

now for the Goku and Superman fight...............

we have proven they can condense their blasts by use of the manga.  we have proven they can fight just like superman can by comparins some of superman's pics and dbzs.

another thing, in the doomsday pic, i never saw the word phasing in that pic.  and the way yall keep discrediting the manga by saying they need to be more specific, i can just say superman wan't phasing doomsdays attack.  goku was doing a similar way of dodging between a multitude of fireballs from Frieza, the speed of which he didn't think anyone could dodge.  all i have seen since DY put up manga pics is bias.

now, i'm not an idiot, i know damn well goku can't lift more than superman, so i don't know why this goku lifting a bus and 40 ton thing keeps coming up in this thread.  Nappa could probably lift more than goku, but i see he got his handed to him pretty easily, and Recoome.  King Yemma can lift more than Goku, yet Goku is more powerful than him.  So i really don't see Superman's lifting feats coming into play.

DY talked about the cell and solar system thing, and its basically in agreeance with what i said, so i won't expand on that.  

this fight will come down to skill level which i say one too many.  yes bullet i know superman has had training from Mongul and he had 1000 years of battle experience. 

but compare Mongul training to the training from kaiosama who controls a whole galaxy.  Goku trained with people over millions of years of experience.  he is a pure trained martial artists.  superman has skills no doubt.  but i will never say superman has better skills than goku when it comes to fighting.

due to goku being able to keep up with superman, dishing out planet destroying attacks (see DY's cell pic) in people's faces in SSJ back in Cell saga.  his durability is great, you can't really doubt it just because he doesn't fight in space.  

Superman had great power but was limited to earth as well until Mongul trained him to breathe in space.  But that doesn't mean Superman couldn't do most of the feats he does now just because he was normally on earth.


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## konflikti (Feb 14, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> your college must really suck if you don't know about the University of Virginia.
> 
> what do you know about gravity.  honestly if you goin by newton's laws for this then you are clearly mistaking.  newton's laws are facing contradictions these days and they only apply to earth.  have you ever heard of Modern Science.  Newton tested objects according to Earth's gravity.
> 
> ...


You know, if you had said "If Earth suddenly explodes, our solar system will eventually get destroyed too." I might have gone "Uhh, maybe he is exaggerating a bit, no biggie." but you told us that whole fucking universe would get destroyed. This leads me to think that you were talking out of your arse. Universe doesn't equal solar system. Haven't got more to say about this, unless you want to drag it on.

Actually, the whole thing drags on. You state that you have proved Goku is lightspeed, I see no lightspeed anywhere. Only hint of lightspeed are blasts which are extremely inconsistant at least in my opinion. I do not agree that Cell was capable of destroying our solar system by big boom. It is not feasible. You also state that Goku is on similar standing in durability with Superman. I see no hints of this. Goku supposedly can withstand planet destroying attacks, but these attacks are ki, a form of attack Goku is most adept protecting himself. I don't see him taking them to face to prove his durability either. He dodges, or counters them with ki.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 14, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> what do you know about gravity.  honestly if you goin by newton's laws for this then you are clearly mistaking.  newton's laws are facing contradictions these days and they only apply to earth.  have you ever heard of Modern Science.  Newton tested objects according to Earth's gravity.



I know that the force of gravity an object is under by another object is equal to  Gm(2)/r^2.

I know that at it's absolute closest point the distance between Earth and Mars is 55,746,199,000m, and that Earth masses 5.9242*10^24kg.

I know that on average Mars is 227,388,960,000m from the Sun, and the sun masses 1.98892*10^30kg

Thus I know that the force of gravity on Mars by the Earth is about 1.27*10^-7N.

And I know the force of gravity on Mars by the Sun is about 2.56*10^-3N.

Thus it's easy to get a ratio of the force between Earth and the Sun on Mars to be about 1:20,000.  If I wanted to drive this home more I'd calculate the force of Earth on Mars at it's fathest point (it would be signifigantly less than half this) and point out that Mars manages to stay in orbit despite that change.

But hey, if you want to feel that the solar system is a delicate balance that's fine, I'm still curious about the ruins of a planet that exist between Mars and Jupiter though and how it managed to get destroyed without taking the solar system with it.


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## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

> Nappa could probably lift more than goku, but i see he got his handed to him pretty easily, and Recoome. King Yemma can lift more than Goku, yet Goku is more powerful than him. So i really don't see Superman's lifting feats coming into play.


 
No he can't we see lifting is proportionate to powerlevel when we see them train in gravity chambers. Stop making up bullshit.




> training from kaiosama who controls a whole galaxy. Goku trained with people over millions of years of experience. he is a pure trained martial artists. superman has skills no doubt. but i will never say superman has better skills than goku when it comes to fighting


 

King Kai said that Vegeta and Nappa were stronger than him. I don't see how Goku learning from him equates to a victory.

I mean lets look at this seriously. Buu has no fighting style whatsoever but clearly demonstrates what happens when you outclass your opponent.

Superman outclasses goku in EVERY freaking way and can win this fight no matter how you look at it. Stop playing stupid.


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## Bullet (Feb 14, 2006)

> but compare Mongul training to the training from kaiosama who controls a whole galaxy.Goku trained with people over millions of years of experience.



Superman has 1,000 of years of battle experince and he knows his own Kryptonian MA, which was used over a 1,000 years.



> he is a pure trained martial artists. superman has skills no doubt. but i will never say superman has better skills than goku when it comes to fighting.



I say he's just as skill or better than Goku, he's shown to be very skilled when it comes to fighting.


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## Gunners (Feb 14, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> I know that the force of gravity an object is under by another object is equal to  Gm(2)/r^2.
> 
> I know that at it's absolute closest point the distance between Earth and Mars is 55,746,199,000m, and that Earth masses 5.9242*10^24kg.
> 
> ...




Yeh, you just went on google or a book to get those figures, people dont actually remember no. to that closely unless they make them up of round them off.

Just though i would say.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 14, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> this fight will come down to skill level


This is one point I'm rather confused about.  After the start of the Saiyajin how much martial arts were really used?  From what I remember most of the fights had all the finesse of the Thing, which is to say a little but you wouldn't trust them in a china shop.

I know Goku has great martial arts skills, I'm not contesting things there, however he didn't really use them anymore after early in the series.

Really Goku's only hope in this fight is in his Chi blast skills, if he tries to duke it out physically with Superman he loses.  The question is how powerful are his Chi attacks vs. what Superman can take (and how likely is Superman to dodge and how long does it take Goku to get the attack off vs. Superman striking first).

Assuming they're both going all out from the start, the ball is in Goku's hands to screw up, if he even tries the wrong tactic from the start, he loses.  If he does everything exactly right he might still lose (but he would have a chance there).  Superman has a much easier time in this fight because his tactics do not require perfection to survive against Goku (but not to say he can be careless by any means).

That is why I'm on the position that Superman would win this fight far more often than he would lose.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 14, 2006)

Konflikti said:
			
		

> You know, if you had said "If Earth suddenly explodes, our solar system will eventually get destroyed too." I might have gone "Uhh, maybe he is exaggerating a bit, no biggie." but you told us that whole fucking universe would get destroyed. This leads me to think that you were talking out of your arse. Universe doesn't equal solar system. Haven't got more to say about this, unless you want to drag it on.



wasn't online, those were from some of the Professors here.  i tend to get a real source, not an online source.  Just like the post i made and sited a NASA astronomer but people on here like evilmoogle are still debating the issue.  but most of that was from: Ricky Patterson, Senior Scientist UVA Astronomy Dept. , SS for Galactic Astronomy Program, and SS for Virginia Parallax Program.  the rest was from me.  we had a discussion on newton in my second physics class.  Newton is really used to form a foundation, just like Copernicus and Kepler.  But no one really refers to them to talk about Universal Theory.

and i could've sworn i said destroy the solar system in the first place, not the universe, but if i said universe i was really mistaken and meant the solar system.  no need to start cursing i know u can think of other words.



> Actually, the whole thing drags on. You state that you have proved Goku is lightspeed, I see no lightspeed anywhere. Only hint of lightspeed are blasts which are extremely inconsistant at least in my opinion. I do not agree that Cell was capable of destroying our solar system by big boom. It is not feasible. You also state that Goku is on similar standing in durability with Superman. I see no hints of this. Goku supposedly can withstand planet destroying attacks, but these attacks are ki, a form of attack Goku is most adept protecting himself. I don't see him taking them to face to prove his durability either. He dodges, or counters them with ki.



you know what, i'm glad to see that you are actually stating his skills are ki-enhanced.  he takes hits with ki, but the dodging part is usually his speed.  either way it doesn't matter if its ki-enhanced guarding, its sufficient to fight superman.  and goku can roll with punches as well.  for cell destroying the solar system, last time i checked this was a manga (FANTASY) so yes it is feasible.  if thats the case i don't see it feasible superman can fly lightspeed, pull warworld, breathe in space, and all the other activities he participate in.  and if goku hasn't been shown to move in lightspeed fashions when he is fighting, then some of those superman speed pictures should be discreditec, cause like i said: side by side with superman and goku's pics that ID put up, Goku had the better ones.



> Superman has 1,000 of years of battle experince and he knows his own Kryptonian MA, which was used over a 1,000 years.



millions>>>>>>>>>>>>thousands



> I say he's just as skill or better than Goku, he's shown to be very skilled when it comes to fighting.



its amazing.  i didn't put superman in the overrated characters thread, but now i see he's bout to get put there now.



> King Kai said that Vegeta and Nappa were stronger than him. I don't see how Goku learning from him equates to a victory.
> 
> I mean lets look at this seriously. Buu has no fighting style whatsoever but clearly demonstrates what happens when you outclass your opponent.
> 
> Superman outclasses goku in EVERY freaking way and can win this fight no matter how you look at it. Stop playing stupid.



Angelo Dundee trained Ali professionally but Ali was stronger than him.  There was really no point to that.  A lot of people are trained by people that are weaker than them.  Its called experience.  Vegeta and Nappa were stronger than him, but how did goku beat Nappa again, oh yeah it was King kai's training.  How did Goku take out Vegeta's Galick Gun, oh yeah Kaioken 4x that he learned from King Kai.

actually the buu's did have styles, and they were all different for each form.  you make up funny things.  superman doesn't outclass goku in every category.  you're just bias and in denial as usual


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

> actually the buu's did have styles, and they were all different for each form. you make up funny things


 

Kid buu did not have a style nor did Majin buu. The 2 forms the goku fought.

I don't count the battle with Gotenks buu as he was just stalling for time.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 14, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i tend to get a real source, not an online source.  Just like the post i made and sited a NASA astronomer but people on here like evilmoogle are still debating the issue.


And I asked for the source you got that from, you must have missed that (I'm assuming this was from a book?)

I'm also curious as to your explination for the asteroid belt in our solar system.  The generally accepted theory is that that was a planet that was destroyed, and if that happened and didn't take the solar system with it why would Earth's destruction?

But on to more pertanant things.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> you know what, i'm glad to see that you are actually stating his skills are ki-enhanced.  he takes hits with ki, but the dodging part is usually his speed.  either way it doesn't matter if its ki-enhanced guarding, its sufficient to fight superman.  and goku can roll with punches as well.



I'm going to use Marvel's rating system, because I like them a bit better, compairing the two, please tell me what you disagree with:

Strength (raw physical strength, the amount you can lift or the damage the same non-technique-based punch will do):  Here I think you'll agree Superman is much higher rated than Goku.  Just looking at the results of their punches will tell us this (Superman knocks people into orbit, Goku knocks people a few miles at best).  I feel confident in saying there is more force behind one of Superman's punches than any other punch in the Dragonball universe.

Speed: Honestly I think Superman's much faster, but for the sake of this analisys we'll say "about the same" since I don't feel like fighting here again.

Durability:  Feat based, Goku's never been hit by anything too terribly powerful (he dodges generally), so we cannot rate his Durability anywhere near as high as Superman's.  Also it's important to note here that Goku can be hurt by physical attacks.

Stamina:  While the sun is up, Superman can keep fighting, I feel there is no argument here.  Goku has a very short time limit that he can maintain his most powerful form (3 minutes IIRC).  Superman's far ahead in stamina for what it's worth.

Intelligence:  In book-smarts, Superman's far more intelligent.  In combat/tactical intelligence, we'll say "about the same" to keep things simple.  I honestly don't consider this to be an area to worry about overall.

Energy Projection:  This is the hard one.  I would say that they're fairly close, however I'd give a distinct advantage to Goku (in flexibility if nothing else).

Fighting Skill: This one is somewhat difficult as well.  To avoid a lengthy debate, I'll go ahead and say Goku's probably got a better martial arts base than Superman.

So, what can we draw from this?  The first point I see is that "stamina" limits the fight to a few minutes, and requires Goku to move (if he waits too long he runs out of energy and Superman wins).  This is a fairly minor point IMO, but it's the first example of a "lose condition" for Goku.

Superman's "strength" vs. Goku's "durability" says that if Superman can get a solid hit on Goku, Goku will die (Goku can be killed, it's happened in the past.  Goku gets hurt by physical attacks.  Superman's physical attacks are stronger than any other we've seen in the DB universe).  This means that Goku has to fight Superman while taking care to avoid any attacks.  This really isn't that big of an issue for Goku as his "strength" wouldn't be enough to go through Superman's "durability" and he should be planning on using his chi attacks.

So my next question is, how easy is it to avoid each other's attacks?  In DBZ generally speaking people of about the same speed dodge each other's attacks fairly easily, and it's up to skill/stamina/tactics to get a sound killing hit on each other.  In the Superman universe, people of about the same speed tend to get hit by each other's attacks pretty easily and it's up to stamina and durability to survive the attacks and keep fighting until the other person drops.

With that in mind, I would say that Superman's energy attacks must move faster than Goku's energy attacks, thus I would say Goku is going to get hit more often than Superman will.  So the last question is, what length of time can Goku endure Superman's attacks (and perhaps as importantly, can he manage a hit on Superman before the "time limit" runs out)?


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 14, 2006)

> And I asked for the source you got that from, you must have missed that (I'm assuming this was from a book?)
> 
> I'm also curious as to your explination for the asteroid belt in our solar system. The generally accepted theory is that that was a planet that was destroyed, and if that happened and didn't take the solar system with it why would Earth's destruction?
> 
> But on to more pertanant things.



NOT AN ARGUMENT.............I asked that same question to my professor that helped me out on the last post.  He said the reason Earth would be so important is because its an inner planet, the closer a planet is to the sun, the more problems it could cause.  *This part is from me:*  It is true that Mercury would cause much problems because of its distance form the sun and Venus.  It's also theorized that this solar system has changed a lot over the years (MANY) and that they're used to be 12 planets and Mars is actually a moon that drifted off and got caught in orbit.  The asteroid belt is theorized as coming from an outer planet (would've been outer with that belt there).  but the planet wasn't that big considering that the total mass in the main belt is only a tiny fraction of the Earth.  Jupiter could cause a problem because of its size, but thats as far as it goes.  If Saturn and the other's were to explode, it would depend on the reaction of saturn's moons (a lot of factors, too many to be exact).  I'm done with this as well but i felt i should answer your question, dah well.......



> Strength (raw physical strength, the amount you can lift or the damage the same non-technique-based punch will do): Here I think you'll agree Superman is much higher rated than Goku. Just looking at the results of their punches will tell us this (Superman knocks people into orbit, Goku knocks people a few miles at best). I feel confident in saying there is more force behind one of Superman's punches than any other punch in the Dragonball universe.



of course, my only thing is that superman will feel goku's punches.  but not as much as goku would feel his.  there was never a debate in strength as far as i'm concerned.



> Speed: Honestly I think Superman's much faster, but for the sake of this analisys we'll say "about the same" since I don't feel like fighting here again.
> 
> Durability: Feat based, Goku's never been hit by anything too terribly powerful (he dodges generally), so we cannot rate his Durability anywhere near as high as Superman's. Also it's important to note here that Goku can be hurt by physical attacks.



well both can be hurt by physical attacks, i have seen superman busted up on several ocassions.  and his upcoming fight with Earth-2 Superman will mess him up a bit as well.  you're right on the dodging part though, i really think goku is more of a dodger.



> Stamina: While the sun is up, Superman can keep fighting, I feel there is no argument here. Goku has a very short time limit that he can maintain his most powerful form (3 minutes IIRC). Superman's far ahead in stamina for what it's worth.
> 
> Intelligence: In book-smarts, Superman's far more intelligent. In combat/tactical intelligence, we'll say "about the same" to keep things simple. I honestly don't consider this to be an area to worry about overall.
> 
> ...



well in my opinion i still think SSJ would do, but for respect i'll say Goku would most likely stick to SSJ2.  but you also can't say goku's time in SSJ3 is limited to 3 minutes because Goku did say he was new to the transformation when he was fighting fat buu.  i'm sure in 10 years, that number has rose substantially.  but yeah superman's stamina is higher, but goku's is not that low.

why u have to take it to IQ, why u gotta insult Goku?  

we're agreed



> So, what can we draw from this? The first point I see is that "stamina" limits the fight to a few minutes, and requires Goku to move (if he waits too long he runs out of energy and Superman wins). This is a fairly minor point IMO, but it's the first example of a "lose condition" for Goku.
> 
> Superman's "strength" vs. Goku's "durability" says that if Superman can get a solid hit on Goku, Goku will die (Goku can be killed, it's happened in the past. Goku gets hurt by physical attacks. Superman's physical attacks are stronger than any other we've seen in the DB universe). This means that Goku has to fight Superman while taking care to avoid any attacks. This really isn't that big of an issue for Goku as his "strength" wouldn't be enough to go through Superman's "durability" and he should be planning on using his chi attacks.
> 
> ...



well like i said above, the fight can last way longer than a few minutes because this is goku ten years after buu meaning if he did have to go SSJ3 he will probably be able to hold that for a good while. and if superman does land a shot, a believe goku can roll with punches and will not be taken out in one punch.  goku has tremendous will power and is normally not taken out by physical attacks (with the exception of Vegeta knocking him out from behind).  most defeats in DBZ happen due to ki-blasts or explosions (with the ocassional oozaru falling on u).

also in your analysis.  that would also mean that goku is a better dodger than superman considering they are normally too fast to be hit by the attacks when they are up close.  you did say when DBZ dodge they are normally not hit whereas in DC they are normally hit.  so i would say superman will take more hits than Goku is.  but yes Goku's biggest offense and defense will be his variety of uses of his ki.

also when it comes to intelligence, yes superman is smart as shit, but u should also keep in mind that Goku is very smart when it comes to a fight.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

> because this is goku ten years after buu meaning if he did have to go SSJ3 he will probably be able to hold that for a good while.


 
Um goku for 10 years after buu could be dead for all we know.




> also when it comes to intelligence, yes superman is smart as shit, but u should also keep in mind that Goku is very smart when it comes to a fight.


 
What has he done that was so smart? Really.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 14, 2006)

.................................
did u read the manga? did you look at DY's manga pics?  10 years later Goku trains Ubuu, what are you even talking about?  

how much hating on Goku do u have in u?

in the fight with frieza he was pretty smart when he had to figure out just how to beat frieza in that limited time, and figure out a way off namek in that little time.

in the cell saga, he fought Cell to see how strong he was and to let Gohan catch on to the way Cell fights (even though it Gohan a while).

he did just charge all of his power into Yakon instead of wasting his time to fight him.  

and most of all he was smart enough to tell krillin don't kill vegeta, cause that sure as hell paid off for him in the end.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

> .................................
> did u read the manga? did you look at DY's manga pics? 10 years later Goku trains Ubuu, what are you even talking about?


 
Of course I did. But did they show him going ssj3? Nope. Ubuu could have killed him for all we know.


And your examples are pretty weak.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 14, 2006)

*in this thread.*
*in this thread.*
*in this thread.*

yeesh, you just run off at the mouth.

none of your arguments are any good.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

Yeah great links right there you showed me. /sarcasm


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 14, 2006)

*in this thread.*
*in this thread.*
*in this thread.*

ok those ones work.

now let me help you since u seem to have a reading disability from what i saw in the Cage/Wolverine thread.

Now let me introduce you to the character first.  That guy with the black hair in the all black gi.  His name is Goku.  Pronounce it like this Go-ku.

Goku is telling Ubuu he wants to train him so they can have another fight.  That is Goku's real motive.  Ubuu agrees.  You see the black caption, doesn't say anything about Goku dying.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

> Goku is telling Ubuu he wants to train him so they can have another fight. That is Goku's real motive. Ubuu agrees. You see the black caption, doesn't say anything about Goku dying.


 
And  I suppose they go train in the Kamis lookout and goku turns into a little kid right.

Thanks your a life saver.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 14, 2006)

you said it not me


----------



## acritarch (Feb 14, 2006)

Screw this thread!

I still say Supes beats Goku rather easily. Heh, actually I think he would even beat the crap out of Chou Gohan.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

> I still say Supes beats Goku rather easily. Heh, actually I think he would even beat the crap out of Chou Gohan.


 
They thought I was joking when I said Chou Gohan was stronger.


----------



## Viciousness (Feb 14, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> And  I suppose they go train in the Kamis lookout and goku turns into a little kid right.
> 
> Thanks your a life saver.



Umm goku's obviously going to train him so they can rematch later according to the manga. Goku has been training for 10 years straight just before the end of the manga, and every other time he focused on training his power rose more substantially than the last. And 10 years is even longer than the 7 years between cell and buu. If he didnt do it to get stronger to the point that he could at least master using SSJ3 on earth like he did in the afterlife then why else train so much that even bulma's only seen him once during the 10 year period? From the ending line of the series it seems obvious Goku didnt die.

Its also apparent to many of the characters throughout the series that Goku is a fighitng genius. Also the Buu's did have distinctively different fighting styles. Kid Buu was a relentless fighter but he also learned to pick things up fast, just like he picked up Kaiobito's teleportation technique in an instant.

Tousen where are you continiously getting these bs arguments from? it seems obvious your knowledge on the series is low. And you thought UVA is a community college  Personally Id say leave it to people like ID and Scorp.

and who thought you were joking when you said Chou Gohan was stronger? During the Buu saga its obvous he is, since Goku is a little weaker than Gotenks, which you thought I was joking about until I had to show you the quote from Toriyama himself. But by the end of the series , its very possible Goku closed the gap.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

> Also the Buu's did have distinctively different fighting styles. Kid Buu was a relentless fighter but he also learned to pick things up fast, just like he picked up Kaiobito's teleportation technique in an instant.


 
So he was relentless while he was there laughing and sitting on the ground waiting to see who would be fighting him Goku or Vegeta... yeah okay.

I guess Majin buu was a sumo wrestler.  Yeah some fighting styles.


We all know the person with the higher powerlevel won every time.


----------



## unknowndanex (Feb 14, 2006)

somebody probably told u Chou Gohan was the strongest.  from your arguments on this thread ur DBZ knowledge is rather low.  

everybody on here already knew Chou Gohan is the strongest, yet u are the only who brings it up.  are u happy you found out something new and now u wanna share it with us.


----------



## Viciousness (Feb 14, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> So he was relentless while he was there laughing and sitting on the ground waiting to see who would be fighting him Goku or Vegeta... yeah okay.



He was relentless in battle when the actual fight started, even though he messed around a little before then. Even Super Buu was cocky and messed around when facing Gotenks, he's seen lying down sipping some drink after one of Gotenks attack. Its called mocking. You cant say someone sucks as a fighter because of their personality traits just like Goku isnt a dumb fighter simply because he's not book smart.

Even Goku complained about his continuous regeneration and the trading of blows between him and Goku doesnt make him look unexperienced. The whole point is he picks up techniques with ease, including fighting. He mastered Kaiobito's teleportation by seeing it once. that is insane.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 14, 2006)

> Even Goku complained about his continuous regeneration and the trading of blows between him and Goku doesnt make him look unexperienced. The whole point is he picks up techniques with ease, including fighting. He mastered Kaiobito's teleportation by seeing it once. that is insane.


 
The whole point is that wasn't a style. And he copied Kamehameha and kaiobitos no ki transmission move but it still doesn't make a style. He mostly did it for convience. As They were on the other side of the universe.


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## Viciousness (Feb 15, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> The whole point is that wasn't a style. And he copied Kamehameha and kaiobitos no ki transmission move but it still doesn't make a style. He mostly did it for convience. As They were on the other side of the universe.



It may be an unorthodox fighting method but he still had his own style of fighting and it was distinctive from the other forms of Buu. Of course copying two attacks doesnt make it a style but I said it to prove how easily Buu picks up on things.

Also this is a pretty small point youre quibbling over. DBZ is filled with tons of skills martial artists and from toriyama's own mouth Goku will always be the best. Didnt that Gotenks quote I had to show you earlier say that? Which pretty much implied even in the buu saga due to martial arts skill Goku couldve beat Gotenks who he was slightly weaker than. Tousen you keep making small and rather pointless points and half the time it seems like youre talking from your rear end (UVA is a silly community college for instance). I think Im going to wait for the real debaters to come back, or someone at least responds to my post before directed at evil moogle, before I spend more time posting here, because arguing with you over the pettiest of things, back and forth, while you try to prolong these issues which have little affect on the fight at hand is not worth it.


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## Kamendex (Feb 15, 2006)

The one thing I will argue for Gokuu is his fighting ability....that man was a fighting genius. The things he displayed during the budokai's as a teen...as an adult he is unequaled in the Dragonball universe.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 15, 2006)

thank you kamendex for pointing out the truth

u're for superman, but at least u're not bias


----------



## Kamendex (Feb 15, 2006)

Yep yep. But the thing is....wouldnt it make more sense if people did Superman vs Chou Gohan threads rather than Gokuu....I mean besides fighting genius Gohan pretty much destroys Gokuu in every category....especially endurance.


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## Tousenz (Feb 15, 2006)

> Goku has trained for a year in 150x gravity in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber


 
How the hell am I the one biased when you make up retarded facts like that one.

But I guess you forgot how many lies you made in this thread. I read Dragonball so long ago so yeah maybe I forgot that that it was ten years for ubuu to grow up in that dirt village before Goku found him but still doesn't make my knowledge any less than someone who sprouts off stuff like that.


----------



## acritarch (Feb 15, 2006)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> Yep yep. But the thing is....wouldnt it make more sense if people did Superman vs Chou Gohan threads rather than Gokuu....I mean besides fighting genius Gohan pretty much destroys Gokuu in every category....especially endurance.



I thought we already did that... and I think Superman got the majority of the votes IIRC which is kind of amusing.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 15, 2006)

Tousen said:
			
		

> How the hell am I the one biased when you make up retarded facts like that one.
> 
> But I guess you forgot how many lies you made in this thread. I read Dragonball so long ago so yeah maybe I forgot that that it was ten years for ubuu to grow up in that dirt village before Goku found him but still doesn't make my knowledge any less than someone who sprouts off stuff like that.



well that was settled when i explained that Toriyama did vouch for the Daizenshyu, and that 150x gravity was in the Daizenshyu.  actually that was between me and kamendex when he said toriyama didn't vouch for it.  i told him of the works Toriyama did in the Daizenshyu and that the books were authorized by him, rather he took it as truth or not is up to him.  but i forgot, DY did call you a cheerleader, so i expect this from you. 

gosh u suck.  u go dig up something from way back just to make another meaningless point.

i see what DrunkenYoshimaster means.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 15, 2006)

> gosh u suck. u go dig up something from way back just to make another meaningless point.
> 
> i see what DrunkenYoshimaster means.


 

So your saying proving your "facts" were wrong is meaningless oh yeah forgot  you go to that community college


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## unknowndanex (Feb 15, 2006)

u didn't prove my facts wrong, what the hell are u talking about once again?

kamendex said something, i responded, and it was squashed.  how u talkin bout a discussion between two people, and the two people aren't even talkin bout it anymore?

um from your arguments in this thread, and that funny ass "great" point u thought u made using Newton of all peole to prove a point about Universal theories.  i can deduce that u are probably the one from a community college, or a low-level university at that.


----------



## Tousenz (Feb 15, 2006)

> um from your arguments in this thread, and that funny ass "great" point u thought u made using Newton of all peole to prove a point about Universal theories. i can deduce that u are probably the one from a community college, or a low-level university at that.


 
Says the person who thinks the universe implodes if the earth goes missing.


No the solar system will not be affected if the earth blows up. The suns gravity is way to great.

Thats why Pluto can past inside the orbit of Neptune and not even change course.



And the sun keeps Pluto in orbit and its close to 6 trillion kms from the sun.

Stop randomly making facts and hope no one will check.


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## unknowndanex (Feb 15, 2006)

> Says the person who thinks the universe implodes if the earth goes missing.
> 
> 
> No the solar system will not be affected if the earth blows up. The suns gravity is way to great.
> ...



actually i never said the universe will explode, and if u read my earlier posts i said if i did say that, then i meant the solar system.  running off at the mouth again.

and once again u're saying dumb stuff.  in the post i made to evilmoogle in which he asked me to explain something to him.

i said the closer a planet is to the sun, they more damage it may cause.  i also said any planet past jupiter (saturn is questionable cause of the moons) wouldn't really affect much that drastically.  what do u do to counter the argument?

u bring up pluto and neptune like an idiot as usual

how did u check anything, but talk about something else.

damn, this is my last time responding to u.  cause u really are being ignorant.  all u're doing now is making up random arguments that were over and done with, and if that doesn't work u say petty stuff like buu had no fighting stlye.  go read a book and stop going online before u come back with another newton miracle.  

hey Tousen, for my last question?  

did u know we landed on the moon?


----------



## Shiron (Feb 15, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well that was settled when i explained that Toriyama did vouch for the Daizenshyu, and that 150x gravity was in the Daizenshyu.  actually that was between me and kamendex when he said toriyama didn't vouch for it.  i told him of the works Toriyama did in the Daizenshyu and that the books were authorized by him, rather he took it as truth or not is up to him.  but i forgot, DY did call you a cheerleader, so i expect this from you.
> 
> gosh u suck.  u go dig up something from way back just to make another meaningless point.
> 
> i see what DrunkenYoshimaster means.


Yes, but the Daizenshyu is nowhere NEAR as cannon as the manga. In the manga, it says 10x gravity. Therefore, tRoSaT has 10x normal gravity, not 150x. Stop using the number that's most convienent for you, when you're not even using the most cannon figure. 10x is what it said in the manga, therefore it's 10x. I thought we covered this already?


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 15, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> NOT AN ARGUMENT.............I asked that same question to my professor that helped me out on the last post.  He said the reason Earth would be so important is because its an inner planet, the closer a planet is to the sun, the more problems it could cause.


Without getting back into this fight, I'd still like to know where your quote from the NASA guy came from.  I still think you're misunderstanding something, but I don't want to get back into a very tangental physics discussion at the moment.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> of course, my only thing is that superman will feel goku's punches.  but not as much as goku would feel his.  there was never a debate in strength as far as i'm concerned.


Superman would feel them, but Goku's not going to end the fight with punches against Superman.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well in my opinion i still think SSJ would do, but for respect i'll say Goku would most likely stick to SSJ2.  but you also can't say goku's time in SSJ3 is limited to 3 minutes because Goku did say he was new to the transformation when he was fighting fat buu.  i'm sure in 10 years, that number has rose substantially.  but yeah superman's stamina is higher, but goku's is not that low.


Fair enough point, but even if we assume a longer fight than a few minutes, I still feel the stamina issue goes to Superman, so my later points remain (if somewhat less sharply than before).




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well like i said above, the fight can last way longer than a few minutes because this is goku ten years after buu meaning if he did have to go SSJ3 he will probably be able to hold that for a good while. and if superman does land a shot, a believe goku can roll with punches and will not be taken out in one punch.  goku has tremendous will power and is normally not taken out by physical attacks (with the exception of Vegeta knocking him out from behind).  most defeats in DBZ happen due to ki-blasts or explosions (with the ocassional oozaru falling on u).


The problem is, noone in DBZ has shown as much power in a punch as Superman has.  Even if Goku rolls with the punch, I think it would still take his head off, or knock him into space.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> also in your analysis.  that would also mean that goku is a better dodger than superman considering they are normally too fast to be hit by the attacks when they are up close.  you did say when DBZ dodge they are normally not hit whereas in DC they are normally hit.  so i would say superman will take more hits than Goku is.  but yes Goku's biggest offense and defense will be his variety of uses of his ki.


The basis of that logic is this.

In DC, Superman fights Bizarro, they blast each other with eye-laser-fire.  Bizarro has roughly the same speed and abilities as Superman.  Chances are they'll be able to hit each other fairly easily.  This indicates to me that relative to the speed of Superman, the eye-laser-fire is fast and hard to dodge.

If Goku fights Vegeta who's roughly the same speed and ability as him, and they shoot chi blasts at each other, they have no problem dodging the blasts.  This indicates to me that the relative speed of the blast to Goku is fairly low, and thus easier to dodge.

In that respect, when Superman fights Goku, if we're assuming that they're about the same speed, Superman's attacks would seem "hard to dodge" to Goku, and Goku's attacks would seem "easy to dodge" to Superman.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> also when it comes to intelligence, yes superman is smart as shit, but u should also keep in mind that Goku is very smart when it comes to a fight.


In my defense, I did note that in tactical knowledge they're more even.


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## konflikti (Feb 15, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> why u have to take it to IQ, why u gotta insult Goku?


I don't think he insulted Goku in any way. He just stated the facts. I see you throwing around "DC with numbers is for idiots" too(the stuff is exaggerated to bring up the point).


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## unknowndanex (Feb 15, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> I don't think he insulted Goku in any way. He just stated the facts. I see you throwing around "DC with numbers is for idiots" too(the stuff is exaggerated to bring up the point).



i didn't really think he insulted Goku.  i was just fooling around.  



			
				EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> In DC, Superman fights Bizarro, they blast each other with eye-laser-fire. Bizarro has roughly the same speed and abilities as Superman. Chances are they'll be able to hit each other fairly easily. This indicates to me that relative to the speed of Superman, the eye-laser-fire is fast and hard to dodge.
> 
> If Goku fights Vegeta who's roughly the same speed and ability as him, and they shoot chi blasts at each other, they have no problem dodging the blasts. This indicates to me that the relative speed of the blast to Goku is fairly low, and thus easier to dodge.
> 
> In that respect, when Superman fights Goku, if we're assuming that they're about the same speed, Superman's attacks would seem "hard to dodge" to Goku, and Goku's attacks would seem "easy to dodge" to Superman.



first of all i haven't forgotten u, i need to get the name of the book from my brother cause it wasn't an online source, well that i know of. well actually it wasn't a book, it was an article, but i should have it for you tonight.  i just asked for the author when he brought it up, and then looked online to see where he got the PhD from.  my brother is pretty smart at science and when i asked him about it, he pointed that out to me.

as far as your example goes.  Goku and Vegeta do fight hand to hand very often and dodge each others attacks as well fairly easy.  i don't think its because goku's attacks are easy to dodge, its just because it appears from when i look at DBZ compared to DC, the characters are better at dodging.  it could easily be said superman and bizarro are hitting each other because when their speed is matched, they can't dodge as good as they normally do.  which is normally the case.  so i really think that goku's attacks would be hard for superman to dodge considering when he matches up to someone the same speed, he is taking hits, whereas when goku matches up to someone with the same speed, he dodges rather good in CQC.

of course, i give stamina to superman. i was just stating that 3 minutes is kinda low for goku.  and i also do agree that goku will have to rely on chi attacks for the majority of the fight.  i wasn't saying goku stood a chance of knocking superman out with a punch, but is conceivable that he can knock superman down and make superman fell it.


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## Bullet (Feb 15, 2006)

> millions>>>>>>>>>>>>thousands



Yes, and it seems he's learned nothing from them but a new technique, he even gets beaten and stalmated by Vegeta who's a brawler.




> its amazing. i didn't put superman in the overrated characters thread, but now i see he's bout to get put there now.



It's amazing how you can't except that Superman is superior than Goku in every way.  

Oh and I stand by what I said, Goku is a good fighter, but Superman is just as good, if not better than Goku in fighting.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 15, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> first of all i haven't forgotten u, i need to get the name of the book from my brother cause it wasn't an online source, well that i know of. well actually it wasn't a book, it was an article, but i should have it for you tonight.  i just asked for the author when he brought it up, and then looked online to see where he got the PhD from.  my brother is pretty smart at science and when i asked him about it, he pointed that out to me.


Take your time, I'd just like to see it when you find it.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> as far as your example goes.  Goku and Vegeta do fight hand to hand very often and dodge each others attacks as well fairly easy.  i don't think its because goku's attacks are easy to dodge, its just because it appears from when i look at DBZ compared to DC, the characters are better at dodging.


I guess the question there is which is the more active task, making an attack or dodging an attack.  I view it more on the offensive side taking aim at a character and limiting their ability to defend themselves.


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## acritarch (Feb 15, 2006)

Actually, I just searched the forums and there is no Supes vs Chou Gohan thread. 

There is a Chou Gohan thread vs. SSJ3 Goku though.. and Gohan only won by a 2:1 margin of votes sadly enough heh.



I think at the end of the thread we were arguing about whether Chou Gohan would always be stronger than Goku (since his potential was unlocked). I still agree with that point. No matter if Goku gets SSJ593480584395 he will always still be behind Gohan who had his potential unlocked since his potential is waaaaaay above Goku's.


----------



## Viciousness (Feb 15, 2006)

^ He reached his full potential for hidden power he had been showing since an early age, which was gigantic., but Goku surpassed his own hidden potential a long time ago. He was a 3rd rate saiyajin and but more than grew out of that and it could be argued he became the legendary Super Saiyajin. Chou Gohan was only but so much stronger than Gotenks who was barely any stronger than Goku according to Toriyama. Even though they locked up all that power he had hidden within him and had been showing short bursts of from an early age Im not convinced he couldnt have gotten any stronger had he continued to train.
And the gap between Gohan and Goku was much larger at the end of the Cell saga, and Goku more than Surpassed that in less time training than he spent at the end of the series. Even assuming Goku would reach some new absolute unsurpassable barrier and was wasting his time training at the end, based on  techniques like Shunkan Idou and being the best fighter he still may have been able to win the fight since aftrall he wouldve beaten Cell had it not been for his regeneration.

But thats a matter for another topic anyway.



			
				konflikti said:
			
		

> I don't think he insulted Goku in any way. He just stated the facts.



True but a fact that will have no bearing on this fight nonetheless as Goku is a proven fighting genius. His lack of booksmarts have never factored intohis fights.

Oh and Bullet, out of curiosity who are you quoting and from what page? Im just lost as to what thye first part of your post is discussing.


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## acritarch (Feb 15, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> ^ He reached his full potential for hidden power he had been showing since an early age, which was gigantic., but Goku surpassed his own hidden potential a long time ago. He was a 3rd rate saiyajin and but more than grew out of that and it could be argued he became the legendary Super Saiyajin. Chou Gohan was only but so much stronger than Gotenks who was barely any stronger than Goku according to Toriyama. Even though they locked up all that power he had hidden within him and had been showing short bursts of from an early age Im not convinced he couldnt have gotten any stronger had he continued to train.
> 
> And the gap between Gohan and Goku was much larger at the end of the Cell saga, and Goku more than Surpassed that in less time training than he spent at the end of the series. Even assuming Goku would reach some new absolute unsurpassable barrier and was wasting his time training at the end, based on  techniques like Shunkan Idou and being the best fighter he still may have been able to win the fight since aftrall he wouldve beaten Cell had it not been for his regeneration.



Eh? SSJ3 Goku is a little bit below SSJ1 Gottenks.. but we'll say they're equal to avoid discussion. Then there's like 4 other characters (er, Super Buu, Buff Buu, Super Buu 1.5, SSJ3 Gottenks) in there until Chou Gohan. Chou Gohan is light years ahead of Goku in terms of power. And of course he can't get stronger... all his POTENTIAL was unlocked and Saiyan-human hybrids have a higher potential than just saiyans. Therefore, potential unlocked Gohan WILL ALWAYS BE GREATER than potential unlocked Goku. And we don't know Goku's potential, but it is worse than Gohans. Goku can't exceed his potential. That's impossible.

How are you even saying the gap was greater at the end of the Cell Saga when Goku 'almost' beat Cell and Gohan "barely" beat Cell? That makes no sense. Chou Gohan is waaaaaaaay above SSJ3 Goku. Heck, Goku could power up *infinite* times and still not beat Gohan.


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## spanishsamurai (Feb 15, 2006)

I was just about to open a thread involving this fight, but Superman has more abilities.
Superman wins


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## Kamendex (Feb 15, 2006)

Wow...i totally forgot about the whole diazenshuu deal. The diazenshuu's are made and authorized by Bird Studios. AT has some interview, drawings, and whatnot in there. He never authorized the information put into those books.

Look at the information it gives....it clearly contradicts the manga. They said Radditz was at 1,500 PL...wrong. They said Gokuu at full power on Namek while fighting Ginyu was 180,000. Which is wrong as well. They put beginning of Dragonball Gokuu at power level of 10....wrong. They put Nappa at 4,000. Which is wrong...when Nappa calms down he is nearly equal to Gokuu at just above 8,000.

Also, I gave you the manga page where it says it is ONLY 10x gravity, 1/4 the pressure of the earth, and the temperatures range from 122 to -40 Degrees Farenheight.

Heck, I doubt the 150x gravity is even IN the diazenshuu's...i bet someone just heard someone say it..and claimed it as truth.


----------



## iaido (Feb 15, 2006)

Superman easily.


----------



## Viciousness (Feb 15, 2006)

braindx said:
			
		

> Eh? SSJ3 Goku is a little bit below SSJ1 Gottenks.. but we'll say they're equal to avoid discussion. Then there's like 4 other characters (er, Super Buu, Buff Buu, Super Buu 1.5, SSJ3 Gottenks) in there until Chou Gohan. Chou Gohan is light years ahead of Goku in terms of power. And of course he can't get stronger... all his POTENTIAL was unlocked and Saiyan-human hybrids have a higher potential than just saiyans. Therefore, potential unlocked Gohan WILL ALWAYS BE GREATER than potential unlocked Goku. And we don't know Goku's potential, but it is worse than Gohans. Goku can't exceed his potential. That's impossible.
> 
> How are you even saying the gap was greater at the end of the Cell Saga when Goku 'almost' beat Cell and Gohan "barely" beat Cell? That makes no sense. Chou Gohan is waaaaaaaay above SSJ3 Goku. Heck, Goku could power up *infinite* times and still not beat Gohan.



where are you getting that he's a little below SSJ Gotenks? Ive adressed this issue several times before  even in this thread.  There can be only 2 reasons you would think this and one is because he said he and vegeta couldnt beat Super Buu. Even Gotenks couldnt beat him, Super Buu admittedly was toying with him, and only beleiuved Gohan to be stronger than himself. If Goku and Vegeta were to fave Super Buu what do you think wouldve happened? Buu wouldve absorbed Vegeta and Killed Goku, or Goku wouldve destroyed Buu a few times only to have him come back and kill him.

The other reason you might think it is because Goku told buu hed have an opponent stronger than him, and theres no way he couldve predicted SSJ3 Gotenks you might say. Not only does he later tell Vegeta much later in a scan I posted that he couldve beaten Fat Buu if he wanted and only wanted to give the boys something to do, but nothing pre-rosat made ssj gotenks seem more powerful than an SSJ3, though people were surprised by their power. After they went into RoSat they themselves talked about how no one would beleive they unlocked the power of SSJ3, showing the power of SSJ3 was probably above what they had acheived before, even if it was Goku as SSJ3.
Then Toriyama himself stated Gotenks was only slightly stronger than Goku, so and this is after SSJ3 Gotenks has been revealed. So who are you going to beleive, the creator of the series, or some theory that is flawed to begin with?

And even if there are some fusions and absorption characters between Goku and Chou Gohan that still doesnt negate the fact that the gap is alot smaller than it was at the end of the Cell Saga. I dont see Chou Gohan being capable of kicking SSj3 Goku in two with a kick the way he did the Cell Jr's. His power is more impressive, but even he got his ass whooped by Super Buu 2. And if you want to make it seem like Goku was terrified to stand toe to toe with Super Buu because he couldve killed him with ease, why then would Goku later get in the face of Super Buu 1.5 if he knew he'd be destroyed so easily. After 10 years I dont see that gap not being narrowed to the point where Goku would probably win a fight between them based on martial arts skill, and shunkan idou. Cell was way stronger than Goku before, and if he didnt have regeneration he wouldve lost to Goku.. Everything in the past has shown us Goku's huge jumps when he goes to train, why do you think this training would suddenly have no effect?  And Gohan barely beat Super Perfect Cell. Goku wasnt stronger than cell by any stretch of the imagination, he only "barely beat cell" because of his intelligent fighting tactics, but due to cell's regeneration Goku realized he had no chance. SSJ2 Gohan was immensely stronger than the SSJs, and probably couldve destroyed them each with one kick like he did the Cell Jr's they were fighting. I dont see any way of doubting  the huge gap between the power ssj2 gohan showed and what the ssjs where showing, unless you have some reasoning to promote your bias. And the gap between Chou Gohan and SSJ3 Goku is no where near that, especially if Goku isnt that far below gotenks as was said by toriyama. Hell Picollo even confused Chou Gohan's ki with Goku's, but Ill llet that slide since it didnt seem to be based solely on power though that was definately a factor.

If your statement about saiyan human hybrids is all you have to go on then its nothing. Vegeta made the statement back before he reached earth. If youre to go off that then Goku wouldnt have been a match for Nappa. What is Goku's potential? Hes a freaking 3rd class saiyajin, theres no way he shouldve been able to beat half the people he's beaten based on unlocked potential alone. He worked hard to break all barriers he had, it wasnt some anger triggered unlocking of hidden potential that got him to where he is with the exception of his initial ssj release. Do you think Goku;s suddenly just going to hit some power cap because of that?


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## Kamendex (Feb 15, 2006)

They didnt rank the saiya-jins based on potential...they ranked them based on their power level at birth. The reason Gokuu has so much potential compared to the ordinary Saiya-jin is because he IS the legendary Super Saiya-jin.


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## jemakai (Feb 15, 2006)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> They didnt rank the saiya-jins based on potential...they ranked them based on their power level at birth. The reason Gokuu has so much potential compared to the ordinary Saiya-jin is because he IS the legendary Super Saiya-jin.



No, Goku doesn't have that much potential.  Vegita states why Goku is strong when Goku is fighting kid buu, it because he always fights to protect his friends thus that gives him strength.  If Goku didn't have reasons like protecting his friends to push him then he wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as he currently is.  Vegita is currect when he says Goku is a low level warrior, Goku simply overides his own weakness.


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## acritarch (Feb 16, 2006)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> where are you getting that he's a little below SSJ Gotenks? Ive adressed this issue several times before  even in this thread.  There can be only 2 reasons you would think this and one is because he said he and vegeta couldnt beat Super Buu. Even Gotenks couldnt beat him, Super Buu admittedly was toying with him, and only beleiuved Gohan to be stronger than himself. If Goku and Vegeta were to fave Super Buu what do you think wouldve happened? Buu wouldve absorbed Vegeta and Killed Goku, or Goku wouldve destroyed Buu a few times only to have him come back and kill him.



Goku took on Fat Buu after Buu had awakened and Vegeta had already died. This is right before he is going to train the kids to become Gottenks. He fights Buu as SSJ3 Goku and even says he would've lost when he goes back to the Kami's platform in the sky. We're not even talking about Super Buu at this point who is stronger than Fat Buu... I'm sure I'm missing a few opponents in between here that signify other stuff, but you can find out why they are ranked that way in the Chou Gohan vs. SSJ3 Goku thread. Heck, both you and I posted in that thread, and a bunch of people went over the tier list of characters there.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> The other reason you might think it is because Goku told buu hed have an opponent stronger than him, and theres no way he couldve predicted SSJ3 Gotenks you might say. Not only does he later tell Vegeta much later in a scan I posted that he couldve beaten Fat Buu if he wanted and only wanted to give the boys something to do, but nothing pre-rosat made ssj gotenks seem more powerful than an SSJ3, though people were surprised by their power. After they went into RoSat they themselves talked about how no one would beleive they unlocked the power of SSJ3, showing the power of SSJ3 was probably above what they had acheived before, even if it was Goku as SSJ3.



Only wanted to give the boys something to do? ... and leave the world to be destroyed if they couldn't figure out how to fuse right? I don't think so. He did say later that he think he could've beaten Fat Buu but he would've definitely struggled doing so. Heck, I think I would still question if he could beat Fat Buu without using a Genki Dama. Seeing as how much fusion(s) and being absorbed added to characters' powers, I don't think SSJ3 Goku could match SSJ3 Gottenks AT ALL much less SSJ Gottenks (which I would concede they are 'nearly' the same I suppose).



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Then Toriyama himself stated Gotenks was only slightly stronger than Goku, so and this is after SSJ3 Gotenks has been revealed. So who are you going to beleive, the creator of the series, or some theory that is flawed to begin with?



... heh, I believe I read that article (which was posted in one of the threads on this battledome but it was 6+ months ago and I can't remember which thread) and I did not see anything about whether SSJ3 Goku was being compared to Gottenks in SSJ or SSJ3 form.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> And even if there are some fusions and absorption characters between Goku and Chou Gohan that still doesnt negate the fact that the gap is alot smaller than it was at the end of the Cell Saga. I dont see Chou Gohan being capable of kicking SSj3 Goku in two with a kick the way he did the Cell Jr's. His power is more impressive, but even he got his ass whooped by Super Buu 2. And if you want to make it seem like Goku was terrified to stand toe to toe with Super Buu because he couldve killed him with ease, why then would Goku later get in the face of Super Buu 1.5 if he knew he'd be destroyed so easily.



IIRC Goku was trying to buy time for Gohan to find the potarra earing when he jumped in front of Super Buu 2. Goku never really got in the face of Super Buu 1.5 because after Super Buu 2 unfused he stated that Chou Gohan could beat him easily. Before that when SB2 was still there, Goku was in panic mode because they were about to get trounced.

I do think Chou Gohan should be able to take Goku rather easily. Actually he also took Perfect Cell rather easily too as 2 of his punches owned Cell badly. So I do see your point there I suppose. I still say the gap is larger at the end though.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> After 10 years I dont see that gap not being narrowed to the point where Goku would probably win a fight between them based on martial arts skill, and shunkan idou. Cell was way stronger than Goku before, and if he didnt have regeneration he wouldve lost to Goku.. Everything in the past has shown us Goku's huge jumps when he goes to train, why do you think this training would suddenly have no effect?



I think the power level difference is too great. Sure Goku has martial arts and techniques, but we have Gohan who has a waaaaay higher potential as a human-saiyan hybrid with totally unlocked potential. Unlocked potential doesn't go away.

As for 10 years after... we don't even know how much Goku progressed or how strong Ubuu was. Anything beyond that is just speculation. Obviously, he would get stronger, but clearly not stronger than his potential. And Gohan's potential is clearly more vast. Vegeta wasn't the only one to state this. Radditz as well as Goku believed it as well. Especially Goku with his belief that Gohan would beat Cell.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> And Gohan barely beat Super Perfect Cell. Goku wasnt stronger than cell by any stretch of the imagination, he only "barely beat cell" because of his intelligent fighting tactics, but due to cell's regeneration Goku realized he had no chance. SSJ2 Gohan was immensely stronger than the SSJs, and probably couldve destroyed them each with one kick like he did the Cell Jr's they were fighting. I dont see any way of doubting  the huge gap between the power ssj2 gohan showed and what the ssjs where showing, unless you have some reasoning to promote your bias. And the gap between Chou Gohan and SSJ3 Goku is no where near that, especially if Goku isnt that far below gotenks as was said by toriyama. Hell Picollo even confused Chou Gohan's ki with Goku's, but Ill llet that slide since it didnt seem to be based solely on power though that was definately a factor.



Yeah, I see what you were saying and already conceded this. Quantifying Cell Jr. power levels is too hard though but we can make some inferences here. Vegeta manhandled the Cell Jrs. along with Trunks.. and I'm sure that Vegeta was not too far below Goku at that point in time. Gohan did beat a powered up Super Perfect Cell when he was partially injured. This indicates that he was at least 1 power up over Goku at this point since Goku was pretty much "even" with Perfect Cell. With Chou Gohan and SSJ3 Goku we have Gohan above Goku with about 4 characters in between them.. but at the very least 2 power ups below him or more than potentially 4. He is significantly weaker at the very least. 



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> If your statement about saiyan human hybrids is all you have to go on then its nothing. Vegeta made the statement back before he reached earth. If youre to go off that then Goku wouldnt have been a match for Nappa. What is Goku's potential? Hes a freaking 3rd class saiyajin, theres no way he shouldve been able to beat half the people he's beaten based on unlocked potential alone. He worked hard to break all barriers he had, it wasnt some anger triggered unlocking of hidden potential that got him to where he is with the exception of his initial ssj release. Do you think Goku;s suddenly just going to hit some power cap because of that?



As I said earlier in my response, not only Vegeta but also Radditz and especially Goku notes that saiyan-human hybrids have much higher potentials than regular saiyans. I still believe that Vegeta's whole lecture on "3rd class saiyans" or whatever it is/was is such BS. Just because you're a 'prince' doesn't mean shit. Why can't you be born with a low starting power level but a huge potential or genious fighting ability? Heck, Goku is/was taught by various martial arts masters which is why he has a tactical advantage. If it were reversed and it was Vegeta on earth with Goku's training and attitude, I think Vegeta would've been stronger than Goku with Vegeta's attitude and training.

Of course he is going to hit a power cap. No one has infinite potential -- otherwise Gohan's power would be infinite. Gohan's potential is higher than Goku's and it was unlocked. Goku can never get stronger than that.

Anyway, I have lots of stuff to do for the rest of the week and weekend so I might not be able to get back to this thread for a while! Just letting you know in advance that I probably won't be able to argue my side  unless someone wants to take it up for me  .


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## Orotachi (Feb 16, 2006)

Why are you guys here,trying hard to speculated that superman is much above than Goku? thats amiss!

OK.Here are some Sufficient prove:

1.Son goku can BREATH through outerspace! it was proven by the late witness Saiyans who's been nailed by freeza's giant spirit ball.Son goku doesn't even try it before,knowing that he's related to the humans habitat.but infact he's a pure saiyan blood and freeza is just only scaring him on that moment so that goku will be distract on their fight then afterwards goku says that he can breath thru outerspace just like you are. while superman, yes he can.

score:draw!    they can both breath thru outerspace....

2.Son goku can become STRONGER and FASTER than ever after experiencing a great battle,hard & heavy training and most of all,after suffering against near death experience!*Without long training!* again *without long training*in otherwords,Automatic POWER-UP.and it was proven early on despite on his horrible defeat against Tambourine,who was polvarize after young Goku brutaly assaulted him in a pattern could KA-ME-HA-ME-WAVE!

Now that i said that,i there was now deep thinking to whether the first match of Son goku vs. superman was NOT ended to a loss of son goku(or horrible defeat).in otherwords,A DRAW or in favor of Son goku.
In that case...Ofcourse,its obvious that superman will be NO MATCH! again NO MATCH! against Son goku whatever he would do..Live it!

Son goku will now recognized the same old technique coming from superman if he try to used (a good example is perfect cell vs. him)

Son goku(the saiyans) has it.they can become STRONGER & FASTER than ever and continously increasing his level or power-up(read above) while Superman has Sufficiently proven NONE!and that was a BIG point for the saiyans compared to the kryptonian.

Score:Son goku wins!   he can power-up or increased his force after a fight

Now its my turn to say to whether superman is above than cell...as what i've seen on goku when he was hunting for a new taker of the temple(dende)in the new or planet namek,Son goku was EXTREMELY amazed about cells power,simply because he SENSE HIM..even while he reach this far,who has more than thousands of light years away from earth! or it takes from the original planet namek to earth a 48000 years if you transport in a common space shuttle according to bulma.and i think that new planet namek is much farther than the original.Imagine that!

And with all those words from mine,Now its your turn to prove that superman is much above than son goku in this rematch without training!prove it.otherwise your just making an uncreadible facts.

And i think this is OVER enough....well if you want,then read my spoilers.but try to understand that this is a rematch so whatever you say,that was supposed to be for the first match and it wouldn't be counted here!and as far as blaster said, this is fully different...


*Spoiler*: _Spoilers_ 



3.Superman can press slightly the moon with his almost full force and that was said to be amiss if we used it on the real fight.did you realize?Goku will not amaze on him.infact Goku could just take supermans place there and charge his KI ENERGY and SHAKED or CRACK the moon! till it destoyed! So whats the big deal on that?(a good example is what we've seen on goku vs. cell & freeza on hell w/c son goku shaked the whole hell and heaven) Well infairness,master roshi have done it before when goku was young(destroyed the moon),RIGHT!so whats the big deal about that supermans strenght?it doesn't something to do with the actual fight!
In precision,superman "DID NOT" again "DID NOT" press the moon by his hand! as a matter of fact,he used energy in order to perform it,the sameway goku would do if he's on the situation.much less he could destroyed it.*Meaning.theres no SUFFICIENT evidence that superman is stronger than goku,understand!*

well infact..if we compared master roshi to freeza,it will be clear that freeza is 5300 times stronger than master roshi(who destroyed the moon,who has a power of more than 100 according to gainger counter),Am i right?And freeza's power was said to be 530,000 according to him before he fight Nail and he actually said that he's force power has become twice after he first transform w/c is now 1 million,plus another 530,000 which is more 1.5 million and lastly another 530,000 for the final transformation w/c approximately 2 million!(and another additional w/c is did not included his 100% against ssj goku)

So its clear to say that freeza is more than 20,000 times stronger than master roshi who destroyed the moon with his full force.and that was 20,000 moons to be waste by freeza!
So Now i would believe on Perfect CELL's words,that he's kamehameha can destroyed the entire whole solar system!and there's no doubt about it...

score: Son Goku wins! in strenght and power...



4.NOW in Goku's case of heavy training,loaded with 2 to 10 tons of weights wearing on his Both arms and legs while performing a quick punch and kick,should be a big deal on strenght & speed! since he could done it while floating on the air, there's no question regardless of his speed and strenght if he fights without those loaded heavy weights!you should conceive it in the real fight.otherwise Son Goku would be much dexterous than superman that might even miscalsulated him.

As what i've seen of supermans performance in the fight(like doomsday vs.him). yup!he was fast and strong but i think he was just posing or modelling on the air while he was on fight(althought it was a good fight)i'm not interested on his action.he's only chasing, pushing or throwing his opponent or punch it normally. Unlike Son goku who has a lot of techniques and more good action moves than any comicbook,was only saw standing and playing around with jess & bertur like a TOY!(who's said to be the fastest creature of the universe, except for freeza)that even gohan and krillin was SHOCK,despite with their hopeless loss/fear only against Reccom.
Maybe,jess & bertur will be the Flash & Superman.......NO kidding..

And...as far as the story goes,we saw ssj gotenks who traveled the whole world continuosly back and forward like a tiny planet!and thats because of his astonishing speed.some says that it was a filler but i haven't saw a filler that superman could do that and if he could do that,goku is much above than ssj gotenks.so it doesn't matter.

score:Son goku wins! ...............in speed!

Son goku has take a lot of punishment of exercising himself from weighted clothes,hundred times of Gravity and tons of training for 7 years by kaiohsama,till he was get immuned on it.

5.Performing a pattern of planet destroyer plus IT on each planet they've set to fight must considered that superman is on the desperated situation! imagine,superman will be affected too much after of taking the punishments by those planets explosion and lossed his energy by only chasing Son goku from another far far far planet which is thousands of lightyears away!anyway.you can imagine now that superman is undressed with full of damages & injury.and the fact that he's not Buu,he was said to be non immortal,RIGHT!


All in all,Son goku's aspect of fighting abilty are much above than superman.

score :Son goku wins! 

EDIT: Son Goku can win this rematch with no injury,OK!


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## Green Lantern (Feb 16, 2006)

*Note to all who are still posting in this thread.

All the people's who's opinions actually matter, have already left this thread in disgust.

That you should continue to argue your point is a reflection to your own intelligence.

Let this thread die *now*.


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## Terensu (Feb 16, 2006)

*Goku walks by Clark Kent when visiting Metropolis*
Goku: I sense that you are a strong...
Clark Kent: Excuse me?
Goku: Would you like to fight?
Clark Kent: I'm late for work.
Goku: Ok, bye...


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## Bullet (Feb 17, 2006)

Guess Superman wins then! *get dress to go to school now*


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## Viciousness (Feb 17, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Guess Superman wins then! *get dress to go to school now*


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## UchihaSSJ (Feb 17, 2006)

Superman wins easily.


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## jaks5555 (Feb 17, 2006)

UchihaSSJ said:
			
		

> Superman wins easily.




eh how, superman will shoot some crappy eye laser and goku will delfect it and then fire a kamehameha and burn him into dust. also goku can blow up a planet in under a 3 seconds as well. also he has the instend traslocation so he can go anywhere and he is SSJ2 making him even more powerful


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## UchihaSSJ (Feb 17, 2006)

> superman will shoot some crappy eye laser


That can burn almost infinitely and extremely hot



> and goku will delfect it and then fire a kamehameha and burn him into dust.


I've never seen a Kamehameha wave fired without Goku charging it up and saying the words. Thats way then enough time for someone who moves beyond light speed.



> also goku can blow up a planet in under a 3 seconds as well.



Goku has never shown the ability to blow up any planets especially not under the time contraints you just put. 



> also he has the instend traslocation so he can go anywhere


With a Ki that he is familar with.



> and he is SSJ2 making him even more powerful



Than what Ssj1....


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## Valdens (Feb 17, 2006)

omg stop. superman wins. only smoker could beat him.


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## Jackal Iscariot (Feb 17, 2006)

gah...just readin some of ya posts makes me wanna hate both goku and superman....


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## Orotachi (Feb 17, 2006)

UchihaSSJ said:
			
		

> That can burn almost infinitely and extremely hot


Burns or melts everything is different from energy blast that can wipeout an entire city or country in second than burning one part of a subject.

EDIT: this is a rematch & i think Goku recognized that same old technique.



> I've never seen a Kamehameha wave fired without Goku charging it up and saying the words. Thats way then enough time for someone who moves beyond light speed.



He doesn't to use kamehamewave instantly,energy blast is enough. kamehameha use for finishing touches.



> Goku has never shown the ability to blow up any planets especially not under the time contraints you just put.



But he beat freeza and cell who's capable of destroying planets or maybe solar system.


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## Bullet (Feb 17, 2006)

> Burns or melts everything is different from energy blast that can wipeout an entire city or country in second than burning one part of a subject.



Superman's Heat Vision is hotter than the sun and has reheated the Earth, that's far more immpressive than nuking a city.



> EDIT: this is a rematch & i think Goku recognized that same old technique.








> He doesn't to use kamehamewave instantly,energy blast is enough. kamehameha use for finishing touches.



The Kamehameha wave takes to long, and it also depends on how long he charge it up, since the longer he does, the stronger the attack, but Supes won't wait around for that to happen. The small energy blasts Supes whould either go right through, dodge them, or counter with his Heat Vision. 



> But he beat freeza and cell who's capable of destroying planets or maybe solar system.



Superman is greater than a planet, and unlike a planet that doesn't move or fight back, he will. And they can't destroy solar systems, they can barely take moutain destroying blasts or very low physical attacks that's not on par with Superman.


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## Id (Feb 17, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Superman's Heat Vision is hotter than the sun and has reheated the Earth, that's far more immpressive than nuking a city.



Not only that at a glance Superman can calculate the melting point of a given object.


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## Bullet (Feb 17, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Not only that at a glance Superman can calculate the melting point of a given object.



Indeed! Which how much he holds back when using his Heat Vision, he knows how to control it. He could easily calculate Goku's melting point, killing him in an instant.


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## Orotachi (Feb 17, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Superman's Heat Vision is hotter than the sun and has reheated the Earth, that's far more immpressive than nuking a city.


HE REHEATED the Earth but what can it do in this rematch? pierce him? which he recognized that same old trick already?

And i think Goku will make him ASH on air...





>



Doesn't understand the thread? or doesn't understand about the saiyans? or just making excuses regarding this?

EDIT: This is a rematch & i think Goku recognized that same old technique.



> The Kamehameha wave takes to long, and it also depends on how long he charge it up, since the longer he does, the stronger the attack, but Supes won't wait around for that to happen. The small energy blasts Supes whould either go right through, dodge them, or counter with his Heat Vision.


Yeah! but AS I SAID, he doen't need to used kamehameha,energy blast 
is over enough for this rematch just like he did to freeza in planet namek before it explode


> Superman is greater than a planet and unlike a planet doesn't move or fight back, he will. And they can't destroy solar systems, they can barely take moutain destroying blasts or very low physical attacks that's not on par with Superman.


To tell you the truth Read these below:



> If we compared master roshi to freeza,it will be clear to say that freeza is 5300 times stronger than master roshi(who destroyed the moon,who has a power of more than 100 according to gainger counter),Am i right?And freeza's power was said to be 530,000 according to him before he fight Nail and he actually said that he's force power has become twice after he first transform w/c is now 1 million,plus another 530,000 which is more 1.5 million and lastly another 530,000 for the final transformation w/c approximately 2 million!(and another additional w/c is did not included his 100% against ssj goku)
> 
> So its clear to say that freeza is more than 20,000 times stronger than master roshi who destroyed the moon with his full force.and that was 20,000 moons to be waste by freeza!
> So Now i would believe on Perfect CELL's words,that he's kamehameha can destroyed the entire whole solar system!and there's no doubt about it...
> ...



I KNOW you won't accept those above but its true 

But HOW much more about ssj2?



> Indeed! Which how much he holds back when using his Heat Vision, he knows how to control it. He could easily calculate Goku's melting point, killing him in an instant.



Yeah,piercing Goku which Goku can pulvarize him.


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## Id (Feb 17, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Indeed! Which how much he holds back when using his Heat Vision, he knows how to control it. He could easily calculate Goku's melting point, killing him in an instant.



I really don?t see the point of off debating and posting. 

I mean no one has really told me nothing new, or something I overlooked in the DBZ world, that can give me a definitive reason to an overall defeat of Superman.

I mean maybe destructor disk might work.

But 
Kamehame
Spiritbomb
Dragon Pucnh 

Superman has survived stronger attacks then those.


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## Id (Feb 17, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> HE REHEATED the Earth but what can it do in this rematch? pierce him? which he recognized that same old trick already?




How is that any diffrent for Goku. Superman does learn from previous fights, and the same tricks wont work on him twice as well.


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## jemakai (Feb 17, 2006)

After going ssj3, Goku faces down sun diped superman......Screw this, the first words out of either of their mouths will convince the other that they both are good guys and they won't fight after that.


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## Orotachi (Feb 17, 2006)

> I really don?t see the point of off debating and posting.
> 
> I mean no one has really told me nothing new, or something I overlooked in the DBZ world, that can give me a definitive reason to an overall defeat of Superman.
> 
> ...



OOPS..SpiritBomb?it can kill an immortal opponent like buu.goku will just go to kai's planet and earn tons of energies and used IT to get closed on superman till he finished.

Try to invited those opponents of superman and try to catch the Gengkidama so that they will end forever.

Also kamehamewave totally killed CELL's inner cell which even a self distract can't harm.

Dragon punch? it pierce's Li shenlong's body which is the final and strongest opponent. 





> How is that any diffrent for Goku. Superman does learn from previous fights, and the same tricks wont work on him twice as well.



Yeh! he learns and becomes strong too.But it seems that saiyans characteristics of being stronger after survival or having  GOOD FIGHT is much good than Supermans ability.Second superman is mostly too strong against his opponent unlike Son Goku who's opponents are way stronger than him and already study him (ex: androids,Cell)that's why he practice.


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## Id (Feb 17, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> OOPS..SpiritBomb?it can kill an immortal opponent like buu.goku will just go to kai's planet and earn tons of energies and used IT to get closed on superman till he finished.
> 
> Also kamehamewave totally killed CELL's inner cell which even a self distract can't harm.
> 
> Dragon punch? it pierce's Li shenlong's body which is the final opponent



I have posted scans of post crisis Superman (the weakest version of Superman I might add) Surviving Galaxies destroying blasts.

Hell I even posted scans ware Superman in a weakend state (by way of kryptonite and or Red Sun) taking on several powerful attacks and foes.



			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> Yeh! he learns and becomes strong too.But it seems that saiyans characteristics of being stronger after survival or having  GOOD FIGHT is much good than Supermans ability.Second superman is mostly too strong against his opponent unlike Son Goku who's opponents are way stronger than him and already study him (ex: androids,Cell)that's why he practice.



Goku is out matched to begin with. Superman is stronger than Goku?s strongest version of ascended sajin he become. 

And what keeps Superman from flying (beyond 4.5 x the speed of light) to any yellow sun and dipping in it to get a quick super charge.


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## Orotachi (Feb 17, 2006)

> have posted scans of post crisis Superman (the weakest version of Superman I might add) Surviving Galaxies destroying blasts.
> 
> Hell I even posted scans ware Superman in a weakend state (by way of kryptonite and or Red Sun) taking on several powerful attacks and foes.



And do you Honestly think that Gengkidama won't affect superman? NO!
Gengkidama is specially design to kill everything no matter how strong opponents are even IMMORTAL. Althought it doesn't showed any distractive power than planet distroyered or galaxy derstroyer thats why some other people(including you) said it's not the solution to kill superman. and after finishing an opponent by gengkidama,it would finally disappear.

In the case of Superman which is powered by sun or can dipped on sun is an excemption against Doomsday?maybe a good boxing match could KO Superman.

If you didn't remember Broly destroyed the south galaxy with a single blast.
And You know Doomsday is already Fucked by Broly. So i think Goku doesn't need to used SSJ with this Rematch is that it? 


> Goku is out matched to begin with. Superman is stronger than Goku?s strongest version of ascended sajin he become.
> 
> And what keeps Superman from flying (beyond 4.5 x the speed of light) to any yellow sun and dipping in it to get a quick super charge.



NO! again NO! superman is the one who'll be outmatch.Goku is always pushing his Limits so don't be surprise if there will be a SSJ5 if the fight starts

EDIT:I think no need to transform SSJ?


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 18, 2006)

The Spirit Bomb doesn't affect those who are pure of heart, which Superman is, btw. How many times must that be repeated before it sinks in?


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## Kamendex (Feb 18, 2006)

> OOPS..SpiritBomb?it can kill an immortal opponent like buu.goku will just go to kai's planet and earn tons of energies and used IT to get closed on superman till he finished.
> 
> Try to invited those opponents of superman and try to catch the Gengkidama so that they will end forever.



First of all, Superman is not going to get hit with the Genki Dama...he's not gonna stand there and watch Gokuu chuck it at him. Also, if Superman is pure of heart, then the Genki Dama wont affect him at all.



> Yeh! he learns and becomes strong too.But it seems that saiyans characteristics of being stronger after survival or having  GOOD FIGHT is much good than Supermans ability.Second superman is mostly too strong against his opponent unlike Son Goku who's opponents are way stronger than him and already study him (ex: androids,Cell)that's why he practice.



Saiya-jins dont get stronger faster after every battle. All fighters gain experience and become stronger after every fight. What makes Saiya-jins unique is that they get a ZENKAI (Power-Up) when they recover from NEAR death experiences. They dont get zenkais from good fights, or a long fight....a NEAR DEATH experience only.


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## xXRoyXx (Feb 18, 2006)

son goku spirt bomb = dead for superman, son goku-->  <--superman  another ex. from the smilies^.^


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## Shiron (Feb 18, 2006)

xXRoyXx said:
			
		

> son goku spirt bomb = dead for superman, son goku-->  <--superman  another ex. from the smilies^.^


Genki Dama doesn't hurt the pure of heart, and Superman would kill Goku before he even got near finishing it. Please, read at least the first and last pages before you post...


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## Orotachi (Feb 18, 2006)

> Saiya-jins dont get stronger faster after every battle


A good example is when Son goku challenges Kid buu alone even thought that they would win over the potara earrings.also goku's Power-up level is much above than vegeta who has royal blood.And You see that both vegeta and goku encountered super boo with vegeto and become strong afterwards. not to mentioned that vegeta can't compared to kid buu!


> Saiya-jins dont get stronger faster after every battle. All fighters gain experience and become stronger after every fight. What makes Saiya-jins unique is that they get a ZENKAI (Power-Up) when they recover from NEAR death experiences. They dont get zenkais from good fights, or a long fight....a NEAR DEATH experience only.


SO YOU MEAN the *part *1 of Son Goku vs. SUPERMAN ENDS WITH DRAW? or in favor with goku?
Heck.if he doesn't loss....Son goku could already handled or recognized the same old technique coming from superman.Add also that Son goku said to li shenlong that* "A technique that has been Already used can't be used again"* just like those other evil dragonballs trick that he imposed against goku and doesn't even hurt.

Su Shenlong is also as hot than sun! that's why it matches the kamehameha of goku so the eye beams of superman won't scratch him at all,if the fight starts.

So meaning. Superman is not that powerfull at all right 



> First of all, Superman is not going to get hit with the Genki Dama...he's not gonna stand there and watch Gokuu chuck it at him. Also, if Superman is pure of heart, then the Genki Dama wont affect him at all.





> Superman would kill Goku before he even got near finishing it. Please, read at least the first and last pages before you post...




As i said,goku will just go to kai's planet and earn tons of energies and used IT to get closed on superman till he finished.he won't throw till he sured that superman will hit with IT.many opponents was hitted even they are much fast than weakling goku at that time,including buu and li shenlong.



> Genki Dama doesn't hurt the pure of heart, and Superman would kill Goku before he even got near finishing it. Please, read at least the first and last pages before you post..


Now that was an assumption,Superman althought he was good guy,he seems THAT he doesn't prove that he has a pure heart.unlike Goku.who can sit and rides over the Kintoon cloud while klilin(even he's one of the good guys) can't sit over that cloud.
And imagine that even vegeta and nappa killed all his friends without any hope to bring their back,was suddenly forgive them before the fight starts.also against freeza before he slice.and that was a real pure heart.


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## Hazuki (Feb 18, 2006)

goku win of course , goku (with out be ssj) beat superman with just one punch or just a little kameha

i think that superman is at the same level of a very very low soldier of freezer
this is a joke for goku


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## Shiron (Feb 18, 2006)

Hazuki said:
			
		

> goku win of course , goku (with out be ssj) beat superman with just one punch or just a little kameha
> 
> i think that superman is at the same level of a very very low soldier of freezer
> this is a joke for goku


 -_- Have you read any Superman comics? If not, then please at least check the pics that people like Id and Bullet have posted in here.

Links:
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE


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## UchihaSSJ (Feb 18, 2006)

I can't understand what you just pasted? Was it to try and say you read super man? Or you saying since people stronger than goku hurt superman that goku should able to as well?


Because thats one messed up argument.


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## Orotachi (Feb 18, 2006)

O_O! whats that?


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## Orotachi (Mar 2, 2006)

UchihaSSJ said:
			
		

> I can't understand what you just pasted? Was it to try and say you read super man? Or you saying since people stronger than goku hurt superman that goku should able to as well?
> 
> 
> Because thats one messed up argument.



Ah! i get it, i'm just focusing with DD there 

Anyway, How bout this?

1) Superman #54: survived, without any injury at all, a ground zero atomic bomb 

2) Superman for all Seasons: Survived, without any injury whatsoever, a Russian thermonuclear warhead (from a submarine) at point blank range. Smiled afterwards. All Russian nukes from submarines are multi-megaton warheads. 

3) Superman #40: Survived, at ground zero (the bomb was in his hands) a 40 megaton thermonuclear device. Then fell to Earth (he was in outer space at the time of the explosion). Superman was knocked unconscious for a half hour; he suffered no physical damage and was merely stunned. 

4) In Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey, Superman survived, at ground zero, a blast equal to ?a million nuclear bombs? (according to the energy being Waverider). Superman did not suffer any physical damage, though was temporarily stunned and stated that he felt concussed. He then got up and boxed a little more with Doomsday, who also survived the blast. 

5) Adventures of Superman #478. As part of the Time and Time Again storyline. Superman?s body was affected by chronal displacement such that massive explosions would displace him through time. His invulnerability was the reason why the Time Trapper selected him for this- only one such as he such survive the catastrophic explosions involved in this method of time travel. Some have argued that Superman did not absorb the full brunt of these blasts but only a threshold amount that would propel him through time. This is blatantly contradicted by the fact explosions of different magnitudes hurled him through time by different amounts; also the more massive explosions (see the Sun-Eater example) caused him greater distress, hence he WAS taking the full force of the blasts (or else all the explosions would have affected him equally.) 
As part of this storyline, in Adventures #478, Superman survived- without so much as batting an eye- the nuclear destruction of the entire moon in the year 2995. He was actually within the moon itself when it was obliterated. He did not suffer any harm and did not lose consciousness. The explosion did not even register for him. Note also that two Daxamites, not affected by chronal energies, also survived. Daxamites are the genetic cousins to Kryptonians, and possess virtually identical powers under a yellow sun. Despite unsubstantiated claims that Daxamites are slightly ?more powerful? than Kryptonians, Superman was able to soundly and convincing defeat the supposedly ?more powerful? Daxamite Lar Gand in a fight in which the odds were stacked against Superman (he was deprived of oxygen before the fight and fighting an Eclipso-possessed Lar Gand). 

6) Also part of Time and Time Again, in Adventures of Superman #477, Superman survived an exploding sun eater, from within the nucleus of the sun eater. A sun eater is an enormous gaseous cloud that literally eats both the energy and mass of whole stars. 
Let my friend Captain Kal explain the physics of it: 
Re: Sun-Eater 
A supernova is the total fusion of an entire star's mass over a period of months. Fusing an entire star's mass all at once should be at least supernova level. Additionally, the Sun-Eater has eaten many stars and IIRC has consumed entire galaxies, so I'd put the Sun-Eater detonation at much greater than a mere supernova, especially since Wildfire's anti-energy was also involved and interacting in that explosion. 
Although it should be noted that it was only the core of the sun eater that was exploded; however, the explosion was sufficient to blast the rest of the massive sun eater apart into the vastness of space, thus destroying it. Likely at least a supernova-level event anyway. Following the explosion, (Action Comics #664) Superman?s body is hurled across ?hundreds of light years of space? and crash-lands on Earth. He is unconscious but physically completely unharmed. He wakes up a day later and, after a brief moment of disorientation, regains his balance and is none the worse the wear. 

7)Superman #3: survives the dreaded fire pits of Apokolips without any physical injury, but suffers a spell of amnesia. 

8) Adventures of Superman #480; Superman: Last God of Krypton one shot; Superman Man of Steel #50: Superman survives immersion in the outer layers of the sun. He also escapes from the sun?s gravity. In the first reference, survival and escape is quite difficult. In the next two, he survives easily, gets a power boost from the sun, and very easily escapes the sun?s immense gravitational pull (more than 99% of the mass of the solar system is in the sun). 

9) Action Comics # 782; Superman Man of Steel #64: very easily survives the core of the sun without any injury whatsoever. His powers are increased by the immersion in the sun. Each moment in the core of the sun, 600 billion tons of hydrogen is fused. Energy equal to literally trillions and trillions of hydrogen bombs are liberated. Since Superman does not blacken the sun by immersion in it, he must only be absorbing a portion of these energies. The rest of the energies do not destroy him because of his invulnerability. In addition to the energy liberated, the pressure at the core of the sun is equal to 250 BILLION Earth atmospheres. Such extreme pressure- literally, matter destroying pressure- does not harm the man from Krypton. In addition, he effortlessly escapes from the immense gravity at the core of the sun (gravity intense enough to fuse billions of tons of hydrogen every second). Superman?s escape from this gravity is effortless and virtually instantaneous as well- an amazing feat of raw flight power. 

10) JLA #41, the conclusion of the World War III story: Superman absorbs the energy of the Mageddon Warhead, a device stated to be capable of vaporizing HALF A GALAXY(and was implied to be able to destroy all of Creation). This is Superman?s most extreme feat of energy absorption, and his body alone did it (no magic hammer needed). Although visibly quite distressed by the absorption, Superman suffers no harm whatsoever, and even smiles afterwards. 

11) Actions Comics #586: His Omega Beams exhausted, Darkseid attacks Superman with an energy beam attuned to his ?precise molecular structure?, intended to destroy Superman. The blast causes him pain but absolutely no physical damage at all; Superman proceeds to beat down Darkseid and defeat him soundly ( a fact admitted to by Darkseid.) 

12) Adventures Of Superman #595: This time its the real thing as Darkseid unleashes the full power of his disintegrating Omega Beams (one of the most feared forces in the DCU) upon Superman with the stated intention of killing him. Superman withstands repeated full force blasts at point blank range, and shrugs them off without any harm or pain whatsoever. Note that besides Darkseid himself, only two others have withstood the beams other than Superman: Doomsday and the Cyborg (whose body was made from Superman?s own Kryptonian DNA). 

13)After his fight with Lobo, and lost in space, Superman survives passage through a cosmic wormhole- a catastrophic, matter destroying force, to say the least. Note that this was during his post-death power-up. Trying to track down the issue number for this, be patient. 

14)Also part of his post death power up, in Superman Man of Steel #30, Superman survives a so called ?force twelve disintegration beam? fired from a ship the size of a small moon with absolutely no effect at all. BTW, Lobo also survived. 

15) Though not exactly canon: in the Superman/Fantastic Four crossover, Superman shrugs off, ?like it was nothing?, a laser beam (designed by Reed Richards) capable of cutting through adamantium.


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## Orotachi (Mar 2, 2006)

And these,
16)Withstands various particle beams from a planet-powered Cyborg, one of which was said to be sufficient to level a city. See Superman Man of Steel #52 

17) In Kingdom Come, Superman was assaulted by Captain Marvel with lightning. Many see this as Captain Marvel ?almost killing Superman.?, as well as evidence of Superman?s extreme vulnerability to magic. An unbiased look at this event reveals otherwise. First of all, the lightning emanates from Shazam, one of the higher cosmic powers in the DCU. It is Marvel?s very power source and in fact conveys the power of Zeus, another higher power in the DCU. As an example of its power, Billy used it to crack open the Gulag in Kingdom Come. Said Gulag was designed by Scott Free, master escape artist, and constructed using New Genesis technology, which in past issues has been used to travel into the sun?s core. In addition the Gulag was constructed to contain literally hundreds of powerful and dangerous metahumans. Marvel busted open this Gulag with his magic lightning. 

Superman withstood at least four (that we saw) of these bolts with the power of ZEUS. He likely withstood a lot more than 4 because it is implied that Marvel was reigning lightning down on Superman off-panel the whole time that the story cuts away to Batman and Wonder Woman?s exchange. Such an assault would have easily killed virtually anyone else in the DCU. Far from being dead, however, Superman required only a couple of seconds pause to gather his wits, used his own superspeed to match the speed of Mercury, and pull Marvel back into the lightning. (And thus win the fight, a often overlooked fact). A battering like that and still he could match the speed of Mercury. From there on, although obviously bloodied, Superman appears fairly intact. In fact, he is still conscious (actually far from out of it), talking comfortably and coherently as he erases the years of brainwashing from Billy, and doesn?t even have the gravelly, uneven word bubbles used to signify serious injuries in comics. He also survives the nuclear explosion, albeit from hundreds of feet away, yet it was still sufficient to kill almost every other metahuman not protected by the Green Lantern. 
As an aside, note that in DC Vs Marvel, Thor absorbed a single hit of Billy?s lightning to the hammer- not even a direct hit- and needed a ?long pause? to recover. Contrast Thor?s long pause after just a single indirect hit with Superman?s couple of seconds to gather his wits after repeated direct hits to the torso. It should be noted however that DC vs Marvel is hardly canon and quite a lot of screwy nonsense was going on in that. 

18)In JLA: Primeval, the League battles Disciple, empowered by the ancestral magical gods. Zauriel, literally an angel from heaven, finds Disciples divinities to be impossibly ancient, even older and more powerful than his own divinities. In fact, Disciple laughs off Zauriel?s attack. Wonder Woman, herself empowered by the Greek Gods, similarly found Disciples ancestral divinities impossibly powerful. And this was BEFORE the Elder Gods gave Disciple their full power. At that point, every Justice Leaguer, including the magical beings Wonder Woman and Zauriel, were completely incapacitated by Disciple?s magical blast. Only Superman was able to walk through the blast unfazed (Is that...the best...you?ve got??), actually made a coherent speech while overcoming the ancestral god-power, overpowered Disciple, and knocked the scepter from his hand. His power exhausted, Disciple was defeated single handedly by Superman. 

19)At the last page of Superman Man of Steel #15, Superman is assaulted from all angles by hundreds of magical demons, and seemingly overcome. However, just moments later in Superman #71, Superman resumes his attack on Blaze (a powerful demon goddess) in her own dimension, in which reality bends to her will. Superman overcomes a magical blast meant to incapicatate him (Blaze: ?you can still move??) and physically restrains Blaze long enough for his ally Satannus to free the Daily Planet staffers from Blaze?s dimension. This was the first time Blaze was defeated in her own realm.

20)Superman fought in and survived the 1000 Year War in Valhalla (time was operating strangely in this magical dimension). Magic no doubt abounded here. There were many casualties amongst the gods including the DC version of Thor (though it hardly reflects on the Marvel version). See Action Comics #761. 

21)Action Comics #587: Attacked by magical ?demon flame? from the demon Etrigan, Superman feels intense pain but notes that he is not physically harmed. He fights off the pain and beats down the demon. 

22) Action Comics # 585: Superman military presses a magically animated mountain, almost (but not quite) big enough to ?crush Metropolis with one step.? Note that he does say ?unnggh!? when lifting it while land bound. However, he easily achieves flight with it (evidence that his flying strength is greater than his land-bound strength) and actually flies the massive chunk of Earth, weighing billions of tons, into Outer Space quite easily. (Leaving Earth?s gravity would require acheiving escape velocity, or 7 miles per second, with a mountain on his back.) Once there, he causally thinks to himself that he just will toss the mountain into orbit around the sun before being interrupted by the Phantom Stranger. 
Contrast this feat of raw power with Hercules? towing of Manhattan Island. Military pressing a weight is far more difficult than towing it, and flying it beyond Earth?s gravity and tossing it into orbit around the sun requires vastly more raw power than towing it. Not sure if this mountain was quite as big as the Island (although if it kept growing it would have crushed Metropolis) but what he DID with it more than makes up for any ambiguity in the weight. 

23)In Superman: The Earth Stealers, Superman propels a massive space station, cylindrical in shape and stated to be 600 miles in diameter (the length of the cylinder by the way was more than twice its diameter- maybe a mountain-range sized ship) by pushing against it. The weight was inestimable- it was constructed from all the natural resources of an entire solar system. That?s a lot of metal! A hyperspace portal was opened and Superman not only pushed it, he propelled it for 20 minutes through hyperspace (it was stated that they reached the halfway point at 10 minutes). Note that he had to exert the power to move it at the same time that he had to deal with the stresses of hyperspace unprotected. He seemed none the worse for wear by journey?s end. Note that the space station was also towing both the Earth and the Moon in a stasis field, however, being honest, I do not factor this weight into the feat as Superman himself theorized that the tractor beam was neutralizing the planet?s mass. Hence he merely resisted the space station?s weight, not the Earth and Moon?s. 

24) In Kingdom Come, Superman burrowed through the Earth (entered in Asia and came out in Gotham City, America) in seconds. 

25) In JLA: The Century War, ancient ?alchemical engines? were causing the moon to fall towards the Earth. Superman and Green Lantern took turns holding the moon back against a ?geometrically increasing? force. Superman got the longest shift before being called off to deal with an even larger threat. 

26)In Superman #181, Superman and Bizarro (his imperfect duplicate) switched bodies. Superman (in Bizarro?s body) punched Bizarro (in Superman?s body) completely through the Earth and out the other end. Bizarro (in Superman?s body) went in through the ground in Metropolis and came out seconds later in China. He is seen ripping straight through the Earth and out the other end. Note that Superman?s body was completely unharmed, conscious, and totally unaffected by the blow. 
Superman theorized that Bizarro?s body ?may be ? potentially stronger than his if Bizarro?s brain would work. However, this is highly unlikely since Bizarro was created as Superman?s imperfect duplicate and is probably at best equally strong. It is more likely that the lack of control over Bizarro?s body that Superman was struggling with the entire issue (due to Bizarro?s brain damage) had robbed that body of the usual fine control Superman has over his own body, and hence struck with greater force than would have liked to (the inability to control the extent of his strength was a recurring problem in that issue). 
Note also that this was a single punch that sent him through the Earth- more impressive than flying dive through the Earth. 

27) Superman Man of Steel #30: during his post-death power up, Superman easily grabbed, broke the forward momentum of, and easily throw in the opposite direction, a ship the size of a small moon. 

28) Luthor 2000 special: Superman split one of Saturn?s moons with a single strike.


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## Orotachi (Mar 2, 2006)

And These,

29)Superman #175: Superman for the first time, overpowers Doomsday in hand to hand combat, which he had never been able to do before, perhaps suggesting that he is now ?stronger than ever.? 

30)Action Comics #782: Superman?s greatest ever feat of raw power. After flying through the sun for an increase in power, SUPERMAN MOVES A PLANET. Specifically, WarWorld, home of Braniac. But there?s more. Braniac has stolen the energy of Imperiex. Imperiex gained his power from the consumption of thousands of whole galaxies since the dawn of time. Hence his universal reputation as the ?Devourer of Galaxies?. It is argued that Braniac wasn?t resisting Superman?s push, and that Superman ws ?merely? moving a planet. This is directly contradicted by Braniac?s narrative: ?Full thrust counter-measure! How is he moving my planet? The Kryptonian does not have that power!? The panel clearly shows the blue Imperiex energies firing from WarWorld?s engines. Yes, Superman was resisting the awesome Imperiex-begotten force, and pushed WarWorld through a boom tube to the beginning of time (big bang). 
Note that this example confirms what we?ve suspected all along: that whatever the role that metabolized solar energy stores play in granting Superman his powers, he is obviously accessing power beyond that of the solar energies he can absorb. A few minutes in the sun is piddling compared to galaxies of power. (All of Superman?s feats listed here exceed the energy he could have gleaned from 30 years of absorbed sunlight, BTW.) Apparently the solar energy is either ?hypermetabolized? (as per JLA scribe Grant Morrison), indicating energy generation via Unified Field/Big Bang, or the metabolized solar energy allows access to his deeper power, likely psionic in nature (as per John Byrne). 

31) Superman #172: Under his ?normal? power level, Superman destroys an Imperiex probe. He also destroyed another Imperiex probe in Superman #153. Imperiex probes aren?t as tough as the real Imperiex. However, they are extensions of his being and Imperiex had been using them for billions of years, and not one probe had ever been destroyed before encountering Superman. Note that Doomsday also destroyed some probes and General Zod (another Kryptonian) destroyed two probes. 

32)Superman #171: With three seconds to act, Superman flies from an about-to-explode Pluto. It?s not clear from the depiction how far away from the planet he is when it explodes (although he looks to be fairly close to the explosion). He is unaffected by the blast, which obliterates the planet. He suffers only temporary ?ringing in my ears.? This is either an invulnerability feat, or a flight speed feat, depending on how fast he got away and how far away he was from the planet when it exploded. Take your pick. 

33) Superman Man of Steel #126: Superman holds a contest of strength against an immortal god, Baal the Thundering Destroyer, and stalemates him. The gods then call Superman ?magnificent.? 

34) Superman is known to be the physical equal of Captain Marvel, a being possessing the strength of Hercules, the speed of Mercury, the stamina of Atlas, and of course, the power of Zeus.

Any Questions?


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## acritarch (Mar 2, 2006)

If you know all this about Superman... and you still think Goku would win I pity you. If you look at this feats you will see that Superman is much physically stronger, faster and more durable than Goku which equates to an easy win for Supes.

Have you even read the manga? The anime.. much less the DUBBED anime had much filler, mistranslations and the disgusting DBZ GT which isn't even canon.


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## Orotachi (Mar 2, 2006)

It happens with their, OVER UNDER CONTROLED POWER inside the earth. because DBZ, GT doesn't really fight thru space even they become MUCH MORE STRONGER after freeza saga*.(a good feats in GT was the first premier of OBB VS. GOKU, without SSJ inside an endless wide space, which they can freely used they're whole might with no disturbance! THAT LOOKS LIKE A UNIVERSE, but due to their powers, the VERSE was suddenly can't resist their striking POWERS, so the temple of DENDE was ruin, simply because their POWERS can already CRASH DIMENSIONS since before DBZ ends) *.

Without a Question,can superman fight if there is no sun?, inside the room of spirit and time? can he be able to escape if the door was RUIN?And the scene where superman cuts the saturn's moon. was can be done, if only master roshi could have BREATH and fly in the space, Using his physical max power. so how about the SSJ4 Goku? and if S A17 striked by the Mageddon Warhead which can vaporize the half of galaxy, i know that he can absorb it, much more he's become so powerfull.

And i agree with those SOLID pics of superman can withstand,much more beat goku on their first bout, HOWEVER, *with this rematch i INSIST that this one was different.* Due to the saiyans ability to become MUCH STRONGER than ever ESPECIALLY if they're opponent has no related CELL BLOOD or being capable of being a saiyan. that's why i'm telling ya. that this would be different.UNDERSTAND?


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 2, 2006)

Erm... Roshi used a ki-blast, Supes used his own physical strength to break that moon. Not the same thing at all.

And what the hell does the Mageddon warhead have to do with anything when Kal-El would kick 17's ass pretty much as quickly as he'd kick Goku's ass regardless of whether or not he could absorb it's radiation?

Finally, the saiyan ability to become stronger after a near-death experience still doesn't help Goku when Supes is still faster, stronger, and more durable in the rematch, too.

God, let's just let this topic die, already.


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## Geese (Mar 2, 2006)

Goku would rape him easily.


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## Bullet (Mar 2, 2006)

Geese said:
			
		

> Goku would rape him easily.




Can you explain why?

Supes wins IMO, until Goku is feats show to be on par or greater than Supes.


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## Orotachi (Mar 2, 2006)

> Erm... Roshi used a ki-blast, Supes used his own physical strength to break that moon. Not the same thing at all.
> 
> And what the hell does the Mageddon warhead have to do with anything when Kal-El would kick 17's ass pretty much as quickly as he'd kick Goku's ass regardless of whether or not he could absorb it's radiation?
> 
> ...



Your Question regarding to S A17 is not good compare for my first one above (the 2nd paragraph).

Anyway, No. you've no proft to whether S A17 would hurt by superman,its because non of those DBGT characters able to FEEL Their eager PUNCHES and KICKED, or atleast move his face, either his body a little bit, that they delivered. (ie: the combo of kidbuu and fatbuu in the body of uboo) see that... we saw him fixing his long hair and non of them even uboo's destructive power injured him or moved its skin's face. he can easily figured out to whether the IT of Goku will be appear.

So your the one who say that goku would become stronger after near death experience, RIGHT? so you mean that Goku DOESN'T even hurt too much on their first bout? ISN'T? so this rematch will be difficult for superman due to where goku experience the pain, or does he feel the pain by superman?

Roshi would do that to, because KI blast, and take a look at his OLDY massive muscle, for sure he would be able to do that aswell.And don't ask me if it was different,cause a person who can blocks KI blast *with physical body *that can destroyed the world(or anyothers) proves that they're physical strenght is EVEN! enough with KI blast.


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## Id (Mar 2, 2006)

Spirit bomb wont affect Superman.
Ki blast?....I seriously doubt they will do any damage to Superman, seeing how he takes earth shattering blast.

Goku, can not take an earth shattering punch.
Goku can not take Heat vision with a higher intensity then the sun.

And In case your wondering Superman can survive with out the aid of the sun. Superman is a battery. The energy from the sunlight is already stored.

So yeah I have not heard anything new. As far as I know Superman still wins this match.


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## Orotachi (Mar 3, 2006)

> Spirit bomb wont affect Superman.
> Ki blast?....I seriously doubt they will do any damage to Superman, seeing how he takes earth shattering blast.
> 
> Goku, can not take an earth shattering punch.
> Goku can not take Heat vision with a higher intensity then the sun.


With overall unreasonable ENHANCED SSJ 4 Goku *(after xi shenron and superman), *yes he can.

As i said above, a person who can blocks KI blast with physical body which can recognized to destroyed the world(or anyothers) proves that they're physical strenght is EVEN with KI.



> And In case your wondering Superman can survive with out the aid of the sun. Superman is a battery. The energy from the sunlight is already stored.



Maybe, but this is an advantage for goku,ISN'T? especially that this is a rematch, that he who already overcome his previews techniques. it would be RUN out his strenght, if the Power of goku was suddenly CAN'T resist or adjusted by superman,due to its persisting power-up. and superman won't escape if he was sealed inside the room of spirit and time.

In case of heat vision, he already countered or immunes Su shenron's fire ki blast *including previews supermans heat vision aswell*.So another ADVANTAGE. Su shenron, which is totally has the highest amount of KI (stronger than SSJ4 vegeta), with an extreme heat as a sun to where it MELTS the walls and doors, IN HIS FIRST FORM the red one, before he fights toddler goku.


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## konflikti (Mar 3, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> As i said above, a person who can blocks KI blast with physical body which can recognized to destroyed the world(or anyothers) proves that they're physical strenght is EVEN with KI.


No. You are wrong. Ki doesn't have physical strenght. The whole comparison is idiotic.


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## Orotachi (Mar 3, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> No. You are wrong. Ki doesn't have physical strenght. The whole comparison is idiotic.



What?

The one who has a greater amount of force(KI), makes a persons physical body to blocks or deflects any KI blast which is assaulting him or much less, stronger than the powerfull KI Blast, if someone returns it by just kicking it back or pushing it back.

Examples:

1.How Bout Kienzan, who has a highiest amount of Sharp KI, that CELL used to SSJ2 Gohan to cuts his arms (Note: it cuts everthing), and then suddenly stopped without any cuts or even blood on his arm. do you get it?

2.How bout Freeza Beam? which is a small, very unsee fast bullet like beam of energy which pierces the opponents, like weakling vegeta's chest, unlike what happen to goku who doesnt even dirt his face,with SSJ form?

3.How Bout trunks lifted effortless the 10x Deathball of frieza.


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## acritarch (Mar 3, 2006)

Why are you talking about so much DBZ GT? It isn't even canon. Half the senarios you are talking about as well are filler like Trunks and Frieza's "ki ball."

Ki is not physical strength clearly. The reason they can block or deflect ki blasts is because they are using ki of their own that is in their body to deflect/block the attacks. It has nothing to do with physical strength. If it did, then Goku would have been able to lift more than 2 tons in normal mode training (which was in between Cell and Buu sagas) whereas he freaking moved what looks like a 2 ton boulder in DB right a few months after he met and trained under Roshi.

Heh.

Pick up the DB and DBZ manga from the FTP in my sig. Go read it. Then come back and talk with us.


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## Orotachi (Mar 3, 2006)

And As for Goku.He's not just a 40 tonner IMO. you see he liftted up and slashed the Z sword very well. Z sword is very heavy..even kibito and kaioh shin doesn't exactly know its weight! not even kibito lifted up a few milli micro cm's away from ground! simply because once the Z sword lay on the ground it would shaked the planet and it won't be lifted again .maybe i guess its weight is half of the planet, but imagine that gohan already overcome the weight and simply performs slashing on air like an ordinary weight sword.


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## acritarch (Mar 3, 2006)

Yeah, a non-canon comic crossover. We've already gone over that in other threads.

Goku never touched the Z-sword. Gohan lifts it, but we don't know how heavy it is or how big Kaiooshin's planet is or really if it can do anything to the planet for that matter. Don't speculate. Provide feats and facts.


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## Orotachi (Mar 3, 2006)

Provide feats and facts.

SSJ3 goku dominated fatbuu alot, which he almost win.
SSJ1 or 2 gohan doesn't even scratch fatbuu either. 
Now you can't even say that goku could do that too?

So what's the feats? whats the facts? you're talking about?


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## Green Lantern (Mar 3, 2006)

FFS! How many times do I have to tell you! Let this thread die now!

This issue has been a closed book for over 6 months, and the other thread was locked for a reason!

And to Bullet and all the other OB vets, we already know the result, so there is no point responding to them


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## Orotachi (Mar 3, 2006)

Yeah,The part one was the that.

Yeah, veterans who doesn't even understand the simple thread  Question >_<


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 3, 2006)

> Your Question regarding to S A17 is not good compare for my first one above (the 2nd paragraph).
> 
> Anyway, No. you've no proft to whether S A17 would hurt by superman,its because non of those DBGT characters able to FEEL Their eager PUNCHES and KICKED, or atleast move his face, either his body a little bit, that they delivered. (ie: the combo of kidbuu and fatbuu in the body of uboo) see that... we saw him fixing his long hair and non of them even uboo's destructive power injured him or moved its skin's face. he can easily figured out to whether the IT of Goku will be appear.


17 absorbed ki-blasts, how the hell did you come to the conclusion that he can absorb sunlight(or anti-sunlight in the case of Mageddon) especially when it's not energy being shot at him(Mageddon is a bomb and Supes put his hands on it to absorb it's energy, completely different from Goku and Co. shooting ki at 17)?

As for 17(or whatever the hell you're trying to say there) shrugging off punches and whatnot: Supes is far stronger than any GT character, so yes, 17 would feel it(or wouldn't since he'd be dead instantly if Superman is going all-out).



> So your the one who say that goku would become stronger after near death experience, RIGHT? so you mean that Goku DOESN'T even hurt too much on their first bout? ISN'T? so this rematch will be difficult for superman due to where goku experience the pain, or does he feel the pain by superman?


No. As far as I'm concerned, Goku dies rather quickly in their first fight. I'm only going by the terms outlined in the first post.


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## Orotachi (Mar 3, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:
			
		

> 17 absorbed ki-blasts, how the hell did you come to the conclusion that he can absorb sunlight(or anti-sunlight in the case of Mageddon) especially when it's not energy being shot at him(Mageddon is a bomb and Supes put his hands on it to absorb it's energy, completely different from Goku and Co. shooting ki at 17)?
> 
> As for 17(or whatever the hell you're trying to say there) shrugging off punches and whatnot: Supes is far stronger than any GT character, so yes, 17 would feel it(or wouldn't since he'd be dead instantly if Superman is going all-out).



Only one punch(or any tecnique like IT) will absorbs and memorized its data that showing off on him. he's much above than a solar system or might be galaxy, unlike in vegeta, planet busting saga. and most of all, does he hurt? NO! you get? Goku punches him very far and almost travels the whole world but you never seen goku punches him again. and again he never feels the pain.he's above than CELLS ability. and if any kind of blast or bomb, it will absorbs its power if that explodes on him, and makes him even become stronger than any universal weapon. since he's the PERFECT KILLING MACHINE created by 2 universal and hell genius.




> No. As far as I'm concerned, Goku dies rather quickly in their first fight. I'm only going by the terms outlined in the first post.



NO he's not, after only 5 days of gravity training(1 days for 100x), he beats FREEZA who is an overlord in the real universe *and who is just looking at HIS ENEMIES and the mountains are NOTHING LEFT.* And after only a couple of his age, MAKES HIM EVEN STRONGER THAN ANY *2000 or 3000 *STRAIGHT YEARS OF TRAINING, UNDER THE 4 GODS OF THE GALAXIES. and as you see, he wins in the finals,

As for your actual question, only by those post above makes him even stronger than superman. he's pushing his limits,he becomes strong if he face from stronger opponents.anyway. i'll just stick on my post above.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 3, 2006)

...When did this topic start up? I never noticed it. Anyway, Superman easily wins. Honestly, if you think otherwise, please go read some Dc comics. 

Here's the short list. 

Superman is faster. Imo Even if we assume Goku moves near light speed and that their of even speed, Goku would lose in a fist to fist fight.

Superman is more durable. Superman can survive a planet destorying blast like it's a larf. Even Cell's claim that he could blow up a solar system, which was clearly an exagerration, would possibly not kill supes. 
-Meaning even if Goku instant teleports behind supes and gives him a full powered kamehameha, supes could stand there and take it. 

Superman has more powerful attacks. 
YES I said it. Superman can kill Goku in so many ways, it's hilarious. Superman can freeze Goku, if he wishes. As for his heat vision, he can expand it, so that its a large beam, think cyclops unleashed! Goku would not survive a direct blast. The heat vision would  disintergate him. Arguing otherwise is imbosiblle! Goku has been shown to have burn marks, and smoke coming from his body before. Even though it was during the frieza saga, he was still suceptible to heat, and that can't be denied. Bottomline, he's not immune to supermans heat vision. In fact, this one fact gurantee's Goku can never win.

Alo Genkidama, only works on evil people, superman is a good guy and at the very least pure of heart.

Lastly, Superman is much stronger then Goku. One punch from superman could feastably shatter every bone in Goku's body. Although I will admit, it is possible that Goku, since he use ki to strength his body, might  not die from one punch. However, if that is the case, Superman can simply rip him in half. In truth though, I don't think Goku's Ki would shield him from superman's punches. Yall don't seem to get how strong he's is. 

-Why are there so many votes for Goku? He clearly loses.

Ps: Gt is nonsense, it is not cannon and is not even remotely respectable. The series was lame, leave that shit out of the battl.e Fuck GT. I vomited after I struggle through the first 7 episodes.


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## Orotachi (Mar 3, 2006)

> ...When did topic start up, I never noticed it. Anyway Superman easily wins. Honestly, if you think otherwise,* please go read some Dc comics.*


Read on previews page.


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## Id (Mar 3, 2006)

SS Goku from DBGT....WTF!

No if you bring in feats from non canon story lines then its time to bring in 

Sun dipped Supes
Superman One Million
Pri Crissis Supes
Superman Prime.

You do know that As strong as Current Superman is, he is the weakest version.

Oh and
Goku Dies when Cell exploded (An Explosion that is suppose to destroy Earth)
Superman Survives 250 million Megaton Nuclear Explosion. 

So yea Durability, Superman deff takes this.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 3, 2006)

^ NAh, don't use that cop out man. It's not that there is a lack of proof in dbz, it's that superman is simply to powerful for Goku to contend with. 

Too strong, too fast, too smart, too durable, to many powers, too much everything. 

Supes is a couple tiers above Goku.


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## Amatsu (Mar 3, 2006)

I say they kill each other.

That way everyone wins.


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## Green Lantern (Mar 4, 2006)

...

Gooba is getting very slack in his monitoring of the Outskirts if topics such as this are still allowed to exist.

We need a new OB mod, as well as a Goku Vs Superman thread = insta ban rule, as there has been wayyyyyyyy to many of these threads.

Please Id, shikashikaboo/ubiquitous, bullet, oratachi etc you guys will never get each other to concede the point, so stop arguing about it, as it is futile

I vote that the Manga Cult be given autonomous rule over the Outskirts Battledome.


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## Rice Ball (Mar 4, 2006)

ohh noos meights

this is still alive 

I'm not really liking anything that is posted after this post, and will show it the only way i can..


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## YesimstillTousen (Mar 4, 2006)

Dam who bumped it. Im tired arguing with people who don't even read comics. Superman wins once and for all. All Incarantions.


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## Orotachi (Mar 6, 2006)

DAMN? I'm also tired of Arguing ppl who's only reading the last page.
Son Goku Automaticaly Wins, with these damn Rematch!

*Goku CAN ALREADY Destroy the UNIVERSE* Right before he fights superman!

The way Buu Crashed Dimensions THRU the endless world, like room of spirit and time and his fight with vegeto on earth, tells you how he can destroyed the endless UNIVERSE! he almost perfectly done it, but Despite on his disturbance, obviously he was stopped.*Think back to just vegetto vs Buu, he was owning Pinky, then Buu got frustrated and was gonna destroy all reality, then vegitto put a stop to it, so just imagine the damage Goku would after he healed by Sensuu benas*

Another One. Due on Above's post And feats where the first intro of GT was Introduced.  We saw Goku Sparring with a much Enhanced Ubb(after years of training) inside the Dimension of an ENDLESS Black SPACE (In THE WORLD, which they can do all they wanted, and give it all the best that they Have, without having Concerning innoscent citizen anymore). *And As you see, Even that they are in other universed (dimension), The temple was still Dominating or Trembling and almost splitted around! Dende and POPO was worrying about, what would happen if the event was held inside the world* Unfortunately after that, ENDLESS Black SPACE was EXPLODED!, after they BUSTTED OUT their KAMEHAMEHA! inside.* And the way the Endless Black space was destroyed followed by the temple of dende inside, Tells yah, that the UNIVERSE CAN'T WITHSTAND their POWER!, hands down.* Simply Because they're  already Enhanced their CRASHING'S SPACE Ability, Since before BUU Arc ends 10 YEARS ago. And thats the Truth.


Note: *Goku doesn't even exactly used SSJ There*(Obviously not even SSJ2). So he has alot of POWERS that he'd keeped inside. So it appears that DBZ fans(not me) are right, that Goku (and near his level from DBZ), CAN destroy the UNIVERSE Right before BUU Arc ends, 10 YEARS ago.

What does the super breath do against the ANTI-DIMENSIONAL SCREAM BLAST? or heat vision, against CUTTING-DIMENSIONAL universed KA ME HA ME HA? I wonder what will happen with this REMATCH, If a much powerful Goku, Returns beyond supermans limits and beyond Universal destroyer LEVEL?

CUTTING-Dimensional universed SCREAM >>> super breath>>> supermans ear.

CUTTING-Dimentional universed KAMEHAMEHA >>> wide heat vision >>> 600 billion tons of hydrogen from sun.

Room of Spirit and time >>> superman? 

Ultimate Dragon Punch(Goku's best than on above) >>> supermans invulnerability

GOKU'S Invulnerability (after taking) >>> heat vision >>> super breath,ice >>> superman

Cutting-Dimentional universed KAMEHAMEHA >>>> maggedon warhead vaporizing attack and trillions and trillions of hydrogen bomb.

Sharp KI Beam (one shot, no effort) >>> red sun >>> supernova.

Dragon punch (with krypton on Goku's fist) >>> superman


*On the other hand,*

1.Goku's death despite of piccolo's Devils cannon was simply admitted, despite that he was so weak than piccolo on that time, And even he can already destroyed the world on that time. and thats the truth.

2.Goku's death from virus heart attack was an exemption, Despite that he has already capable with that, As trunks says earlier. even sensuu beans won't do, so it was his destiny.

3.Goku died from explosion, which is Unknown how stronger it was. As you see, after cell Exploded itself, He was trap from another dimension that he did. Meaning, the Explosion is too POWERFUL enough to crashed DIMENSIONS again. and that was 7 years before the ERA of SSJ3.

What does those all arguments above, do about Goku?, who's too much FAR from his previews level. and of course his  previews level with superman? What does the heat vision do against an Ordinary Saiyan, Dimensional UNIVERSAL Destroyer KA ME HA ME HA? I think Sonic Scream is enough for his ear drum.(Imposed IT near on his Ear, and WAHHHHHHHHH!)


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## Orotachi (Mar 6, 2006)

Many of these feats regarding superman doesn't even something to do in the actual fight against a real Aggressive warrior that even the most genius, whos study and collects all the cells/data of every saiyan and char of DB, can't understand how he will beat. and wizards, who creates a real immortal and destructive power which no one could ever totally kill him, NOT EVEN THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON or WARRIOR IN DC/superman WORLD, COULD STOP, hurt and totally kill him. 

Few of these feats of superman are:

1.In Adventures 473, Superman hurled an alien starcraft that was ?bigger than an aircraft carrier? and over 1 mile long OFF Earth. Aircraft carriers generally weigh 100Kilo tons.and he Carried a mountain that towers above the Metropolis into space. The mountain, incidentally, was animated by a magic that had strength sapping effects.

2.In superman Man of Steel #30, Superman survives a so called ?force twelve disintegration beam? fired from a ship the size of a small moon with absolutely no effect at all. BTW, yes lobo also survived. 

*Erm... Before Cell games, Perfect Cell stopped a Huge coming Asteroids who's also a moon size, By Using his ONE FINGER!*

"We know that freeza can destroyed the mountains or moon by just literary looking at it(just like he did to vegeta's father who can always destroyed a planet). Simply because, he can blasted off over 20,000 moons at one time, with his Effortless freeza beam(not included his 50 to 100% stage). he can just simply look at lobo in merely second and poof! nothing left."

3.Action Comics #782: Superman?s greatest ever feat of  power. After flying through the sun for an increase power, SUPERMAN MOVES A PLANET. Braniac has stolen the energy of Imperiex. Imperiex gained his power from the consumption of thousands of whole galaxies since the dawn of time. Hence his universal reputation as the ?Devourer of Galaxies?. and in *In JLA 80 page giant no. 3*, he held up Earth?s moon for an indefinite amount of time. He was also able to push the planet Krypton (while under a Red sun) . . . with an assist from Ion engines that his own heat vision powered. According to the comics, Krypton is 16 times the density of Earth, or as one character remarked a heavy planet.

*Erm... Before Cell games, Perfect Cell stopped a coming Huge Asteroid who's also a moon size, By Resting EFFORTLESSLY Using his ONE FINGER! So he can push a Planet even Jupiter with all of his might, And that was  only CELL.

Erm... Teen Gohan simply shaked his feet while sitting on his chair(in school) and then A HUGE EARTH QUAKED was Created!, worrying videl and about how he can escape and transform into GSM. *
Erm....Since Gohan lifted the Z sword which even Kaioh Shin and kibito doesn't even exactly know its weight. and even KAIOH SHIN is the most powerful in DBZ world WHICH HE CAN SIMPLY LIFTED ANY OBJECT BY JUST USING HE'S *STRENGHT and TELEKINETIC ABILITY*, CAN'T EVEN PULL THE SWORD or Lifted it! FOR OVER 15 GENERATIONS OF THE PASS KING KAI OF THE UNIVERSE. that once the Z Sword layed on the ground, IT WILL TREMBLED THE PLANET and IT CAN'T BE LIFTED ANYMORE."


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## HonkyTonkMan (Mar 6, 2006)

Goku wins hands down, stfu, next.


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## Bullet (Mar 6, 2006)

Superman wins! *walks out ashamed to be a DBZ fan*


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## acritarch (Mar 6, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> Goku CAN ALREADY Destroy the UNIVERSE Right before he fights superman!



Ahaha. No. Goku is nowhere close to destroying TWO stars at once much less the UNIVERSE. ROFL.



> Think back to just vegetto vs Buu, he was owning Pinky, then Buu got frustrated and was gonna destroy all reality, then vegitto put a stop to it, so just imagine the damage Goku would after he healed by Sensuu benas



Buu was never going to destroy reality. Just earth. A planet.



> And As you see, Even that they are in other universed (dimension), The temple was still Dominating or Trembling and almost splitted around! Dende and POPO was worrying about, what would happen if the event was held inside the world



Never happened.



> And the way the Endless Black space was destroyed followed by the temple of dende inside, Tells yah, that the UNIVERSE CAN'T WITHSTAND their POWER!, hands down.



Never happened.



> Note: Goku doesn't even exactly used SSJ There(Obviously not even SSJ2). So he has alot of POWERS that he'd keeped inside. So it appears that DBZ fans(not me) are right, that Goku (and near his level from DBZ), CAN destroy the UNIVERSE Right before BUU Arc ends, 10 YEARS ago.
> 
> What does the super breath do against the ANTI-DIMENSIONAL SCREAM BLAST? or heat vision, against CUTTING-DIMENSIONAL universed KA ME HA ME HA? I wonder what will happen with this REMATCH, If a much powerful Goku, Returns beyond supermans limits and beyond Universal destroyer LEVEL?
> 
> ...



No. No. No. No. No. Filler. No. No. No. Filler.



> 1.Goku's death despite of piccolo's Devils cannon was simply admitted, despite that he was so weak than piccolo on that time, And even he can already destroyed the world on that time. and thats the truth.



No. If Radditz cannot destroy the earth, then Goku who is multiple times weaker than Radditz MINUS the training he did inbetween the time of the last Budokai and Radditz coming cannot destroy a planet.

By the way, Vegeta never destroys a planet.



> 3.Goku died from explosion, which is Unknown how stronger it was. As you see, after cell Exploded itself, He was trap from another dimension that he did. Meaning, the Explosion is too POWERFUL enough to crashed DIMENSIONS again. and that was 7 years before the ERA of SSJ3.



How about no. If it did then it would've been able to destroy more than Kai's small planet.



> What does those all arguments above, do about Goku?, who's too much FAR from his previews level. and of course his previews level with superman? What does the heat vision do against an Ordinary Saiyan, Dimensional UNIVERSAL Destroyer KA ME HA ME HA? I think Sonic Scream is enough for his ear drum.(Imposed IT near on his Ear, and WAHHHHHHHHH!)



Goku never screams. Only Buu does. And Goku will lose.



> Erm... Before Cell games, Perfect Cell stopped a Huge coming Asteroids who's also a moon size, By Using his ONE FINGER!
> 
> [...]
> 
> Erm... Before Cell games, Perfect Cell stopped a coming Huge Asteroid who's also a moon size, By Resting EFFORTLESSLY Using his ONE FINGER! So he can push a Planet even Jupiter with all of his might, And that was only CELL.



Never happened.



> "We know that freeza can destroyed the mountains or moon by just literary looking at it(just like he did to vegeta's father who can always destroyed a planet). Simply because, he can blasted off over 20,000 moons at one time, with his Effortless freeza beam(not included his 50 to 100% stage). he can just simply look at lobo in merely second and poof! nothing left."



We were never told how Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta. Frieza never destroyed any other planets or moons besides Namek.



> Erm... Teen Gohan simply shaked his feet while sitting on his chair(in school) and then A HUGE EARTH QUAKED was Created!, worrying videl and about how he can escape and transform into GSM.



Earthquake? Never happened.



> Erm....Since Gohan lifted the Z sword which even Kaioh Shin and kibito doesn't even exactly know its weight. and even KAIOH SHIN is the most powerful in DBZ world WHICH HE CAN SIMPLY LIFTED ANY OBJECT BY JUST USING HE'S STRENGHT and TELEKINETIC ABILITY, CAN'T EVEN PULL THE SWORD or Lifted it! FOR OVER 15 GENERATIONS OF THE PASS KING KAI OF THE UNIVERSE. that once the Z Sword layed on the ground, IT WILL TREMBLED THE PLANET and IT CAN'T BE LIFTED ANYMORE."



Nice speculation.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 6, 2006)

Why are you guys using filler in a debate?You can't use filler in a debate and furthermore if you do PRe-Crisis supes would kill any form of Goku.The guy snezed away 3 planets!!!


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## Rice Ball (Mar 6, 2006)

Please, just don't reply to this thread again.
We need some ready repers ready to deal out the reds to people :|


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## Orotachi (Mar 6, 2006)

> Ahaha. No. Goku is nowhere close to destroying TWO stars at once much less the UNIVERSE. ROFL.



BROLY Can, by a weak SSJ, he destroyed South galaxy. And yes Goku CAN do more than that.

Kaio-sama  told that a Saiyan of immense power utterly destroyed the South Galaxy( which i mean plentier than 1 galaxy only), and is now heading towards the North Galaxy bound on wreaking havoc.Meanwhile, the Z warriors have decided to venture to New Vegeta, and after arriving catch wind that the legendary Super Saiyan is heading towards the North Galaxy




> No. If Radditz cannot destroy the earth, then Goku who is multiple times weaker than Radditz MINUS the training he did inbetween the time of the last Budokai and Radditz coming cannot destroy a planet.
> 
> By the way, Vegeta never destroys a planet



kING PICCOLO  has already capable with destroying planet by full strenght. since Goku was young.



> We were never told how Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta. Frieza never destroyed any other planets or moons besides Namek.



No lying, But the filler says he destroyed Planet vegeta by just EFFORTLESS DeathBall. if your using your mind, yes a moon is just a piece of cake if you compared freeza to master roshi.



> Never happened


But nver lying.



> Nice speculation.



Nice Denying. your mind still closed.


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## acritarch (Mar 6, 2006)

Broly = filler. *go read the damn manga.*

picollo was not capable of destroying the planet. *go read the damn manga.*

we don't know how frieza destroyed Vegeta. *go read the damn manga.*

I haven't lied once in this thread. My facts are straight from the manga. *go read the damn manga.*

I am not denying anything. You're the one who is using filler and movies. *go read the fucking manga.*

ty. link to the ftp where i uploaded the manga is in my sig.


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## Bullet (Mar 7, 2006)

> I never lie, Goku can easily wins with this Damn Rematch, without SSJ (or even he did).simply because he's a saiyan and he can POWER-UP, more than vegeta and more than superman. you forgot about the damn manga and about the damn thread.



That still doesn't make Goku greater than Superman though.  He can power-up, big deal, that's not bringing any evidence that Goku is stronger, faster, or more durable than Superman at all. 



> Broly.even filler, go watch the damn movie, and see the results, compared to an Enhanced SSJ2. and SSJ 3. and BUU. its not all about straighting facts, Its all about Comparison.



Movies aren't cannon.



> SSJ3 Goku, after 10 years(still on DBZ) >>> megabuu >>> kidbuu >>> Gohan/vegeta >>> BUU >>> SSJ3 Gotenks >>> SSJ2 Gohan >>> Perfect Cell >>> BROLY's South Galaxy busting!



Superman >>>> any DBZ character


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 7, 2006)

How the hell can you claim to know the manga when you claim SSJ3 Goku is stronger than all the Super Buus and Chou Gohan and the manga has already said that they are stronger?


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## Green Lantern (Mar 8, 2006)

This discussion is closed- I don't care who you think wins.

Any post after this will recieve neg rep from *everyone* until such a time that this thread is finally off the front page of the Outskirts Battledome.

Anyone who brings back this thread from the dead will receive neg rep until this thread is off the front page.

OB Vets:If you see *anyone* replying to this thread, neg rep them. (Anonymously if you want)

Complain all you want about how this is unresolved, but get this straight: *This thread is over*


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