# Itachi - Speed



## Itachі (Mar 14, 2016)

How fast?


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## Arles Celes (Mar 14, 2016)

I think about as fast as Base Guy. They also both have a 5 in speed in the databook.

Though Itachi surprising Bee twice with his shunshin was more impressive than any speed feat that Base Guy had...


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## Jad (Mar 14, 2016)

Arles Celes said:


> I think about as fast as Base Guy. They also both have a 5 in speed in the databook.
> 
> Though Itachi surprising Bee twice with his shunshin was more impressive than any speed feat that Base Guy had...



How about surprising the man himself, Itachi....


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## Saru (Mar 14, 2016)

*Speedsters:*

Naruto (KCM)
V2 Yondaime Raikage

--

Sandaime Raikage
Minato
Tobirama
V2 Killer B
*Itachi* / Gai

--

Sasuke (EMS) [Kabuto Fight] / Kakashi / Obito

***​
He's pretty fast. He should be fast enough to keep up with some of the fastest characters in the manga (the characters in his tier) on foot IMO.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 14, 2016)

Out of curiosity, where do you rank Sage Naruto on that list, Saru?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 14, 2016)

...how is Minato below KCM Naruto and the Raikages, Saru?


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## Itachі (Mar 14, 2016)

SM Naruto probably has the godliest interception feat in the whole Manga, lol.


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## Trojan (Mar 14, 2016)

Meh, he is supposedly fast, but honestly I don't think he has shown any super impressive feats.

And no, going behind B is not that much when Nagato who can't even walk could do it.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 14, 2016)

On-topic, Itachi is base Guy's speed, yes.


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## Saru (Mar 14, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Out of curiosity, where do you rank Sage Naruto on that list, Saru?




Probably on par with Itachi and Gai--who has an impressive interception feat of his own [1]. Maybe in the tier below (the tier below is already very close to the one above it). Sage Mode Naruto's speed is hard for me to qualify, honestly. He dodged a strike from Sandaime Raikage at the last moment, but Sasuke could do that as well. He attacked Nagato's Asura Path with Rasengan before it could do anything, but then he wasn't able to outspeed any of the other Paths when he fought them, even after the shared vision of the Rinnegan had diminished. So it's hard to say.

I also have to keep in mind that Naruto was not at all fast prior to attaining Sage Mode, and the boost from Sage Mode can only have increased Naruto's speed but so much.




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...how is Minato below KCM Naruto and the Raikages, Saru?




The list is based on movement speed. Hiraishin is not taken into account, as the users' placement there would be rather obvious. Movement speed is a more purposeful criteria for assessing the speed of Hiraishin users.




Hussain said:


> Meh, he is supposedly fast, but honestly I don't think he has shown any super impressive feats.
> 
> And no, going behind B is not that much when Nagato who can't even walk could do it.




That never happened. ​


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2016)

Arles Celes said:


> I think about as fast as Base Guy. They also both have a 5 in speed in the databook.
> 
> Though Itachi surprising Bee twice with his shunshin was more impressive than any speed feat that Base Guy had...



He surprised Bee so much that every time he attacked Bee, after being warned about the attack, Bee was saying "i know".


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Probably on par with Itachi and Gai--who has an impressive interception feat of his own [1]. Maybe in the tier below (the tier below is already very close to the one above it). Sage Mode Naruto's speed is hard for me to qualify, honestly. He dodged a strike from Sandaime Raikage at the last moment, but Sasuke could do that as well. He attacked Nagato's Asura Path with Rasengan before it could do anything, but then he wasn't able to outspeed any of the other Paths when he fought them, even after the shared vision of the Rinnegan had diminished. So it's hard to say.



He outspeeded Asura Path from like 500 meters away when Asura Path was only around 30-40 from Tsunade.

Keep in mind this is the same Asura Path that saved Deva Path, who was two inches from having his face torn in two. Asura Path is _fast as hell_, faster than Kakashi, and more on Guy's level for doing something like that, in all honesty.

I tend to think Sage Naruto is as fast as the Third. He didn't just duck two inches like Sasuke did, he curved his entire body in an orientation that allowed him to land that strike as it was passing by. So not only is Naruto's movement speed impressive, his striking speed also has to be for being quick enough to tag the Third's arm mid-transit. 



> I also have to keep in mind that Naruto was not at all fast prior to attaining Sage Mode, and the boost from Sage Mode can only have increased Naruto's speed but so much.



That's the point though, Sage Mode makes him that fast...



> He surprised Bee so much that every time he attacked Bee, after being warned about the attack, Bee was saying "i know".



Yeah, seriously. Itachi didn't blitz or surprise shit with his speed.

People who say Itachi blitzed Bee, please show me a scan of Bee actually looking at him before the former appeared behind him, because with the giant bird and dog materializing in front of him, I'm damn certain Bee had something else of greater intrigue to focus on.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 14, 2016)

Speed-wise, Itachi has never faced any of the top speedsters of the Manga in a serious fight. The only one he has seriously faced and matched is Kakashi, and Kakashi is slower than several characters. What he did against Hebi Sasuke isn't that impressive because there are several other characters who could have done just as well and even better. When he was revived, he fought base B and NTCM Naruto who had no desire to hurt Itachi in the first place and clearly never used Shunshin once. So even if you want to argue that NTCM Naruto was not holding back that doesn't help your argument as V1 A can take on and overpower NTCM Naruto (without Shunshin of course) and Naruto wasn't overpowered by Itachi at all (nor commenting on his incredible speed) in their brief Sasuke discussion scuffle. Even B wasn't impressed by his speed and flat-out said "I Know" during his fight with Itachi that Itachi was behind him, BASE B. 

Later, when Itachi fought alongside Sasuke against SM Kabuto Itachi was hit by two attacks that would have killed him had he been alive. However, Itachi never wanted to kill Kabuto in the first place and Kabuto was being arrogant and reckless. Itachi was also protecting Sasuke during one of the times he got "killed" I believe, but regardless Kabuto isn't a speedster at all and never was. So his performance in the physical prowess department against Kabuto isn't extremely impressive either. It's impressive enough to make him a fast character but definitely not one of the fastest. Especially considering how much faster Kakashi himself has gotten since he has fought Itachi and how fast Guy is as well. In conclusion, I'm not saying Itachi is slow. That'd be foolish, but he hasn't done anything impressive enough speed-wise to put him up there with the fastest characters in the Manga.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 14, 2016)

I like using Raikage forms as a basis.

*1. v2 Raikage*
KCM/BM Naruto
Gated Lee/Gai (not including 8)
Living Madara
*2. v1 Raikage*
v1/v2 Bee
Sage Naruto
Sage Kabuto
Minato (no Hiraishin)
Tobirama (no Hiraishin)
Itachi 
Base Gai
CS-boosted Sasuke
*3. Base Raikage*
Base Raikages
MS Sasuke 
Kakashi
Obito
100% Deva Path
Base Killer Bee
Base Lee
*4. Below Base Raikage*
Everybody else to varying degrees



StarWanderer said:


> He surprised Bee so much that every time he attacked Bee, after being warned about the attack, Bee was saying "i know".



Not in the actual, official translation of the manga. And in even the translation you're referencing, Bee only said it once. The other time all he said was "!!?" which (spoilers!) isn't the same as "I know."


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 14, 2016)

What did he say in the actual and official translation then?


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## Saru (Mar 14, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> He outspeeded Asura Path from like 500 meters away when Asura Path was only around 30-40 from Tsunade.
> 
> Keep in mind this is the same Asura Path that saved Deva Path, who was two inches from having his face torn in two. Asura Path is _fast as hell_, faster than Kakashi, and more on Guy's level for doing something like that, in all honesty.




Those distances you're tossing out don't sound right. The distance between Naruto and Tsunade and Nagato's Asura Path and Tsunade seemed more comparable. Naruto also started moving before Nagato's Asura Path did, as denoted by the movement lines in the panels prior to the Path rushing at Tsunade. 



I don't think that Asura's interception feat is particularly impressive, and that Path is certainly not as fast as Gai. Kakuzu intercepted Kakashi's attack too just a few chapters prior to that, and Kakuzu is not a speedster. In fact, Kakuzu was able to not only intercept Kakashi's attack, but kick him several meters after Kakashi presumed him to be dead.




> I tend to think Sage Naruto is as fast as the Third. He didn't just duck two inches like Sasuke did, he curved his entire body in an orientation that allowed him to land that strike as it was passing by. So not only is Naruto's movement speed impressive, his striking speed also has to be for being quick enough to tag the Third's arm mid-transit.




That seems like an overestimation to me considering that Sandaime is one of the fastest characters in the manga and is a Kage whose fighting style is based around speed. Naruto simply hasn't proven himself to be that fast in Sage Mode. They're definitely in the same ballpark though, so it's not like I think you'd be way off base in thinking that.​


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Those distances you're tossing out don't sound right. The distance between Naruto and Tsunade and Nagato's Asura Path and Tsunade seemed more comparable.



You looking where I'm looking?

You can't even see Naruto in the upper right panel, that's how far away he is. He was _way_ farther from Tsunade than Asura Path was.



> Naruto also started moving before Nagato's Asura Path did, as denoted by the movement lines in the panels prior to the Path rushing at Tsunade.



What are you talking about? Those movement lines are *Asura Path's*.



> I don't think that Asura's interception feat is particularly impressive, and that Path is certainly not as fast as Gai. Kakuzu intercepted Kakashi's attack too just a few chapters prior to that, and Kakuzu is not a speedster. In fact, Kakuzu was able to not only intercept Kakashi's attack, but kick him several meters after Kakashi presumed him to be dead.



Define 'speedster'.

I think anyone who can just casually intercept Kakashi like that is pretty damn fast, at least Kakashi's speed as well. But more to the point, Kakuzu intercepted Kakashi's assault a couple meters out from Hidan, so it's not that impressive.

Asura Path did it while Raikiri's hand was inches from Deva Path's face. He's faster than Kakuzu, who's on-par with Kakashi in speed considering they've tangoed in taijutsu evenly before. I don't even think base Guy is _that_ much faster than Kakashi to begin with. In your tier list, he's just above him, too.

So Asura Path being on par with base Guy in speed sounds right to me.



> That seems like an overestimation to me considering that Sandaime is one of the fastest characters in the manga and is a Kage whose fighting style is based around speed. *Naruto simply hasn't proven himself to be that fast in Sage Mode*.



He did.

He dodged the shit out of him and slammed his arm into his chest before Sandaime could react at all.


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## Veracity (Mar 14, 2016)

If you honestly re-read some fights, you'll find some crazy ass interception feats-  that clearly aren't always valid. I think the validity of an interception feat depends on if the character consistently remains that fast.

Tobirama intecepting KCM Minato = Valid
Kakuzu intercepting Kakashi = Valid
Killer Bee intercepting Minato's Kunai slash = Invalid
Lee, Kakashi, Gaara and Minato intercepting Red Aura Gai = Invalid.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 14, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> *1. v2 Raikage*
> KCM/BM Naruto



Huh?



Sadgoob said:


> *Kakashi*
> Obito
> *100% Deva Path*



Bro...


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## Sadgoob (Mar 14, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> What did he say in the actual and official translation then?



_Above you!_



_Behind you._



People that think Bee wasn't struggling with Itachi's movements are wrong. Two warnings of losing track of Itachi's movement in half a chapter? The author couldn't make it more clear that there was a gap there.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 14, 2016)

Again, that feat is moot.

You can't prove Killer Bee was even looking at him, so Itachi 'catching him by surprise' when Bee possibly and likely wasn't even paying attention to him as opposed to the giant summons on the horizon is hardly a good feat.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 14, 2016)

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. The author had Bee lose track and receive warnings because of Itachi's movements two times in two pages. Then the next  also highlights Itachi's superior movement.

You can see Itachi's kick-strikes against KCM Naruto _BOOM-BOOM-BOOM_ as Killer Bee is _SHOOM_-ing in. But by the time Killer Bee covers the two feet, Itachi's in a totally different position against Naruto.

Then he easily dodges Bee, even though Bee is striking from behind him and Itachi is mid-strike with Naruto. And then Itachi zooms backward with a _SCREEECH_, all the while Killer Bee and Naruto remain in the exact same position.

In reality, Bee had a much better showing against Minato. He  , and even intercepted Hiraishin against A. On the other hand, Bee had Naruto intercept Itachi for him .

Itachi's fast. Real fast. And living Itachi without his sickness may have been even faster, as we've seen several Edos notably slow down reflexively from their living selves (Madara, Sasori, Asuma, Deidara, Hanzo.)

We know Living Madara was faster than Minato in foot-speed by virtue of him blitzing Sage Naruto easily. So why is it so preposterous to think that Living Itachi, prior to sickness, may have been as fast as Minato in foot-speed?


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Naruto looks to be about thrice the distance from Tsunade that Nagato's Paths were. That number is a lot smaller than 500 meters.



Thrice? Where did you get that magical number? You can't even _see_ Naruto in that scan.

I'm getting from the fact that even the boss frogs look distant from Tsunade. And the boss frogs are like, 100 meters tall according to the databook.



> The panel with Naruto's shocked expression.



It means he sensed something was going to happen.

That's not movement, genius.



> Kakashi and Kakuzu did not tango evenly in taijutsu before.



The entire time Shikamaru was setting Hidan up to trap him in Kage Mane, Kakashi and Kakuzu were duking it out in close-quarters.



> I don't think that the distance from Hidan detracts from the fact that Kakuzu not only intercepted Kakashi's attack but attacked Kakashi before he was able to do anything. Both interception feats happened off panel, and both Kakuzu and Nagato's Asura Path had to travel a similar distance to intercept Kakashi's attack.



I'm not saying it detracts from it.

I'm saying Asura Path was more impressive on account of the distance. Because from what we saw, Kakashi started dashing at Hidan from several meters away, next panel he's kicked. Kakashi thrust his Raikiri at Deva Path with only a couple of inches between them, next panel, Asura Path saves him. 

There's a clear distinction between those feats that you're weirdly not acknowledging.



> I would probably define a speedster as someone who is around Kakashi's level in speed. He's the bare minimum. Usually speedsters tend to have significant feats and/or hype to back up their standing. Nagato's Asura Path has no hype or feats on the level of Gai or anyone above him, so he's definitely not in that tier of speed IMO.



Intercepting Kakashi at that distance makes Asura Path _at the bare minimum_ Kakashi's speed, if not faster by all means. So he's a speedster by your own definition, and in my opinion, as fast as Guy because of the distance by which he performed that feat.

Again, base Guy isn't that far above Kakashi. He's one line above him in your own damn tier list, so Asura Path's feat makes him faster than Kakashi marginally and thus on par with Guy.

This isn't rocket science.



> Again, Sasuke did the same thing to the faster Yondaime Raikage with Chidori, who is also faster than Sasuke. Both Sasuke and Yondaime Raikage even charged at each other same way that Sandaime and Naruto charged at each other. I don't think that Naruto's feat required more speed than Sasuke has. I actually never noticed the parallel until now, but the circumstances were extremely similar.



The circumstances leading up to the dodge were yes, similar.

How the feint was performed was completely different. I've explained this. Sasuke ducked a couple of inches, Naruto moved his entire body several feet to the right to tag the Third's arm before the Third can even react. Sasuke's Chidori was already meeting with Ay's chest as Sasuke/Ay were running towards each other. Naruto had to hit the Third' arm as the Third went by. Completely different.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 14, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. The author had Bee lose track and receive warnings because of Itachi's movements two times in two pages. Then the next  also highlights Itachi's superior movement.



The first time you're referring to was Itachi using a clone, so that wasn't movement.

The second time, I've already explained.



> You can see Itachi's kick-strikes against KCM Naruto _BOOM-BOOM-BOOM_ as Killer Bee is _SHOOM_-ing in. But the time Killer Bee covers the two feet, Itachi's in a totally different position against Naruto.
> 
> Then he easily dodges Bee, even though Bee is striking from behind him and Itachi is mid-strike with Naruto. And then Itachi zooms backward with a _SCREEECH_, all the while Killer Bee and Naruto remain in the exact same position.



Yeah, this is all cool.

And then Bee pressures the hell out of him with his swords when neither of them are gaining a significant edge over the other.

And for the record, I never argued Bee is faster or as fast than Itachi in base. Just that Itachi never 'blitzed' him as some overzealous fans like to say.



> Itachi's fast. Real fast. And living Itachi without his sickness may have been even faster, as we've seen several Edos notably slow down reflexively from their living selves (Madara, Sasori, Asuma, Deidara, Hanzo.)



The only Edo Tensei that was ever explicitly said to be weaker than their real selves was Madara, Hashirama, and Tobirama.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 14, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Yeah, this is all cool.
> 
> And then Bee pressures the hell out of him with his swords when neither of them are gaining a significant edge over the other.



It's commonly accepted in the BD that sophisticated taijutsu technique can neutralize speed advantages. The massive weapon advantage of eight swords against one kunai helps too.



ATastyMuffin said:


> And for the record, I never argued Bee is faster or as fast than Itachi in base. Just that Itachi never 'blitzed' him as some overzealous fans like to say.



I'd argue that without those warnings, Bee may have endured a swift loss after losing track of Itachi's movements, especially if Itachi used his deadly techniques at a point when Bee lost track of him. Itachi  when Nagato didn't see him coming, and Nagato was a hell of a lot more reflexive than Bee.



ATastyMuffin said:


> The only Edo Tensei that was ever explicitly said to be weaker than their real selves was Madara, Hashirama, and Tobirama.



It may not have been said explicitly for others, but I think it was clearly shown. Deidara and Sasori would not be blitzed by Sai. Hanzo would not be blitzed by Mifune. Asuma would not be hit by Ino. Zabuza would not be blitzed by Kakashi (well, maybe. Kakashi improved a lot.)

We saw how much faster Madara got when living. We know that Hashirama and Tobirama's speed was nerfed hugely in part one. We know Kabuto improved the technique, but clearly not enough if Living Madara's speed improved so hugely even though Madara was the only one he "enhanced beyond what he was in life."

And most of the Edos that performed well, like the Kage, Nagato and Itachi, were never seen at their peaks in life. I think it's highly plausible that they were all faster to some degree. p2 Orochimaru with Hashirama's DNA > Kabuto > p1 Orochimaru in the Edo Tensei. I considered it like 90% > 75% > 30%.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 14, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. The author had Bee lose track and receive warnings because of Itachi's movements two times in two pages. Then the next  also highlights Itachi's superior movement.
> 
> You can see Itachi's kick-strikes against KCM Naruto _BOOM-BOOM-BOOM_ as Killer Bee is _SHOOM_-ing in. But the time Killer Bee covers the two feet, Itachi's in a totally different position against Naruto.
> 
> ...



This still doesn't change the fact that Base B and NTCM Naruto (Without Shunshin) are both slower than V1 A, who is slower then V2 A, who is slower than Minato. As established multiple times. But after seeing that I will accept that Itachi is faster than I thought he was, but I don't see any true blitzing. As for the Nagato example, Nagato's sensing was turned off and he was being mindlessly controlled by Kabuto remember? Who had a one-track mind and entirely ignored Itachi's presence. The Edo Tenseis are only slightly weaker than when alive anyway, as Kabuto had perfected it more than anyone else did.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 14, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> When you're a dancing ball of swords against a _kunai_, it can neutralize a speed advantage pretty well. It's commonly accepted in the BD that sophisticated taijutsu technique can neutralize speed advantages. The massive weapon advantage would also likewise neutralize that speed advantage somewhat.



Then with Itachi's amazingly superior speed and such, he should have been able to dance all over Bee, no?

Didn't happen.



> I'd argue that without those warnings, Bee may have endured a swift loss after losing track of Itachi's movements, especially if Itachi used his deadly techniques at a point when Bee lost track of him. Itachi took Nagato's arms when Nagato didn't see him coming, and Nagato was a hell of a lot more reflexive than Bee.



Okay?

Itachi still never blitzed Bee, he's never come close to it. This is the only point I'm making. Bee never 'lost track' of his movements because there's no proof he was even keeping track of them when Nagato summoned two giant-ass summons in front of him and Itachi. 



> It may not have been said explicitly for others, but IMO it was shown.



Sure.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 14, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Then with Itachi's amazingly superior speed and such, he should have been able to dance all over Bee, no?
> 
> Didn't happen.



Yeah, he only deflected them with a mere kunai, then used that speed advantage to gain some space so he could kill the Cerberus and knock out Nagato. No big deal. Totally unimpressive if you ask me.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2016)

Itachi has a 5 in speed, Sharingan Prediction, and some of the fastest hand-seal feats in the manga, plus a 4.5 in Taijutsu. His movement speed is easily going to out perform most high-tiers, but since he doesn't have any Jutsu specifically enhancing speed (Hiraishin, RNY, Bijuu Shroud, SM, Gates), he's not among the fastest high-tiers and he is not fast enough to straight blitz any High-tiers, and more has to rely on out maneuvering them over time w/ speedy combinations.


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 15, 2016)

I'd peg him at around equal to or slightly faster than base Gai. I'd lean towards Itachi being the quicker of the two, but it would be pretty damn close. Of course, it's quite debatable.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2016)

Itachi can fight at quicker speed than base gai due to Sharingan enhancing his perceptions 

I would put itachi at the same speed as V1 raikage or killer bee with his bijuu cloak on

So he can blitz who u think these guys would blitz 

Though note V1 A flaied to blitz Jugo 

So itachi speed being a problem for high tier in a straight up blitz is hilarious . With distractions though , should happen everytime


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## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2016)

> Not in the actual, official translation of the manga. And in even the translation you're referencing, Bee only said it once. The other time all he said was "!!?" which (spoilers!) isn't the same as "I know."



The fact is - when Itachi attacked Bee and the "!!?" appeared, Bee wasnt blitzed. When Itachi appeared behind Bee, he wasnt blitzed either and he knew Itachi was behind him, meaning that he could react to his speed.

I'd say that Itachi is at SM Naruto's/SM Kabuto's level when it comes to overall speed. He is pretty fast.



> Above you!
> 
> !!?
> 
> ...





Since when your translation is the official one? Can you prove it is official?


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## Jad (Mar 15, 2016)

Gai's top speed is appearing infront of Itachi and Kisame without him noticing. That's a fact. And the fact Gai's speed is littered, LITTERED, in the Databook waaay more than say Itachi. Then I'd say quite comfortable  Gai should be considered faster then the two if you wanted a straight answer. A person that solely fixates on physical speed and power should be the answer.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2016)

> I'd argue that without those warnings, Bee may have endured a swift loss after losing track of Itachi's movements, especially if Itachi used his deadly techniques at a point when Bee lost track of him. Itachi cut off Nagato's arms when Nagato didn't see him coming, and Nagato was a hell of a lot more reflexive than Bee.



Sensing is not a passive ability, as it was shown in the manga. Nagato probably didnt use his sensing ability at that time and he was busy dealing with both Naruto, who opposed his Ningendo, and Bee. 



> It may not have been said explicitly for others, but I think it was clearly shown. Deidara and Sasori would not be blitzed by Sai. Hanzo would not be blitzed by Mifune. Asuma would not be hit by Ino. Zabuza would not be blitzed by Kakashi (well, maybe. Kakashi improved a lot.)
> 
> We saw how much faster Madara got when living. We know that Hashirama and Tobirama's speed was nerfed hugely in part one. We know Kabuto improved the technique, but clearly not enough if Living Madara's speed improved so hugely even though Madara was the only one he "enhanced beyond what he was in life."
> 
> And most of the Edos that performed well, like the Kage, Nagato and Itachi, were never seen at their peaks in life. I think it's highly plausible that they were all faster to some degree. p2 Orochimaru with Hashirama's DNA > Kabuto > p1 Orochimaru in the Edo Tensei. I considered it like 90% > 75% > 30%.



Sai improved a lot, and he is the guy who stopped Hebi Sasuke's attack thanks to his speed. Ino improved a lot. Hanzo fought young Sannin and we dont know how powerfull they were at that moment compare to their prime. So nothing wrong with Mifune doing what he did in canon.

Didnt Kabuto perfect his Edo Tensei? There is nothing in the manga that proves the rest of Edos were weaker than in their living prime. Madara could be weaker because, well, his chakra alone sh*ts on any other Edo's chakra reserves. Dont you think it could be harder to ressurect Madara than Itachi?


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## Veracity (Mar 15, 2016)

Jad said:


> Gai's top speed is appearing infront of Itachi and Kisame without him noticing. That's a fact. And the fact Gai's speed is littered, LITTERED, in the Databook waaay more than say Itachi. Then I'd say quite comfortable  Gai should be considered faster then the two if you wanted a straight answer. A person that solely fixates on physical speed and power should be the answer.



Have you seen Sage Naruto's interception feat in front of all 6 Paths?


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2016)

I don't think he has 

As that was certainly more impressive than what gai did when he kicked kisame in part 1


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## Jad (Mar 15, 2016)

I don't remember Naruto's feat. But Gai ran a massive distance in the OPEN which Itachi could see in front of him, and was visibly surprised by Gai's appearance still. Meaning Gai ran a massive distance in clear view and Itachi still didn't notice him. To save Kakashi he was most likely moving his top speed. This is funnily enough BACKED UP by the databook statement of that scene.

But I guess with a lot of Gai's feats they fall under art error, inconsistent, not allowed this and that all under the sun to belittle the feat.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 15, 2016)

Are you looking for hard numbers or comparison with other characters?

It's hard to place the numbers, exactly. We know characters have been supersonic in this manga ever since Sasuke with the first stage Curse Mark dodged Zaku's supersonic Zankuuha while carrying Naruto and Sakura. Itachi is...many...many times faster than that. People are going to nitpick about when exactly he reacted, but he did block lightning. You also have guys physically comparable to Itachi, like Deva Path Pain for example...who jumped Naruto's FRS when it was about an inch from his body...an attack that crossed the entire length of Chibaku Tensei in one second. The OBD has a bunch of fan-made calcs, but they get revised or thrown out so much and the methodology is often so shoddy that it's not worth the time, imo. The best we can say is probably that Itachi moves at several times the speed of sound and react to speeds at a much higher threshold. He's faster than sound, but slower than lightning; and his reaction time is just barely shorter than the duration of a lightning strike.

In comparison with other characters, there are more than a handful in his tier...guys like Minato, Nagato, Tobirama, Gai, Killer B, Kakashi, Obito, and so forth. Any differences between their movement speeds are too marginal to make or break a fight, normally.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2016)

Jad said:


> I don't remember Naruto's feat. But Gai ran a massive distance in the OPEN which Itachi could see in front of him, and was visibly surprised by Gai's appearance still. Meaning Gai ran a massive distance in clear view and Itachi still didn't notice him. To save Kakashi he was most likely moving his top speed. This is funnily enough BACKED UP by the databook statement of that scene.
> 
> But I guess with a lot of Gai's feats they fall under art error, inconsistent, not allowed this and that all under the sun to belittle the feat.



Sounding 

Or perhaps that specific feat was simply unimpressive considering what SM naruto did and what killer bee did to taka

Not everyone feels the need to overhype gai


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2016)

I'd say Itachi is overall faster than Base Gai. Konoha Jounins were shitting their pants against Itachi, granted it was his jutsu exection and handseal speed but it should be factored in overall speed. So that means it was the kind of speed that they weren't used to seeing. 

I'd say Itachi is among the fastest steroid free(power ups) shinobi.


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

He's fast, that's all you need to know.

Now when people start putting him on Minato's level, that's when we're gonna have a problem.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> He's fast, that's all you need to know.
> 
> Now when people start putting him on Minato's level, that's when we're gonna have a problem.



Itachi is fast enough to compete with Minato in a taijutsu match, that's for sure.


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## Jad (Mar 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say Itachi is overall faster than Base Gai. Konoha Jounins were shitting their pants against Itachi, granted it was his jutsu exection and handseal speed but it should be factored in overall speed. So that means it was the kind of speed that they weren't used to seeing.
> 
> I'd say Itachi is among the fastest steroid free(power ups) shinobi.


Here you go Mr. Novel

Rahyo instantly takes the open opportunity, and catches Guy off-guard. His fist goes through Guy?s abdomen. Guy?s eyes widen. However, at the next instant, the spot where the enemy?s fist should have penetrated Guy?s body ..is actually empty! Guy?s body has vanished like a flickering mirage.


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi is fast enough to compete with Minato in a taijutsu match, that's for sure.


Not for long.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Not for long.



If Minato's Hiraishin is restricted? Itachi beats him.


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

Aren't you the guy who said Bruce Lee isn't good enough for the UFC? Sorry but i can't take you seriously.


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## Sapherosth (Mar 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Aren't you the guy who said Bruce Lee isn't good enough for the UFC? Sorry but i can't take you seriously.




Does bruce lee have any ground game?


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## Santoryu (Mar 15, 2016)

As fast as Kakashi. Maybe slightly faster, but not enough to make a difference.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> He's fast, that's all you need to know.
> 
> Now when people start putting him on Minato's level, that's when we're gonna have a problem.



I think the problem arises when people think Minato without Hirashin is as fast as Minato with it.


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think the problem arises when people think Minato without Hirashin is as fast as Minato with it.


Hiraishin Minato > Minato > Itachi


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## hbcaptain (Mar 15, 2016)

Since when Itachi can launch a Kunai with V2 Ei at 5cm form his head  .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Hiraishin Minato > Minato > Itachi



I don't think there is any evidence thats suggests Minato without Hirashin is faster than Itachi.
But feel free to point me towards it if you think there is.


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## Rocky (Mar 15, 2016)

He probably is. Minato is a speed-centric character, so his reflexes and normal speed are probably the peak of what you can get unenhanced. The gap between Minato without Hiraishin and Itachi isn't going to be noticeable, though, and Itachi can do certain things (like seal weaving/clone feinting) faster than Minato can.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2016)

Minato without hirashin does have more speed hype than itachi though 

Wondering why one would ignore that 

If minato using shunshin remains true to his monicker as clearly stated in the manga I think that should indicate to most normal people that minato is still at the height of speed without hirashin 

But I guess people logic is to claim he always used hirashin therefore his base speed is unimpressive . Guessing this is the same reason why people think base A is somehow slow 

Despite more than likely being faster than the likes of killer bee


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2016)

Minato may have faster shunshin, I have nothing against that. 
But shunshin alone doesn't define speed.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 15, 2016)

When Tobirama said Minato acts at a very fast rate , that means he is at the peak of non god and Sage Hashirama/Madara's move speed .

The fact that he can launch a Kunai with V2 Ei at 5cm in front of his face is an enough proof I think .


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## Garcher (Mar 15, 2016)

Faster than Minato without FTG


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think there is any evidence thats suggests Minato without Hirashin is faster than Itachi.
> But feel free to point me towards it if you think there is.


Copy paste Itachi? I don't think so.

And as hbcaptain pointed out, Minato's feat against A shows he's not just all about Shunshin.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2016)

Is there any evidence that Minato didn't use Hirashin ? I am pretty sure he did, because it has always been the only relevant talk between him and Tobirama.

As for Hbcaptains post, it is a negligible thing. Minato was able to flick his wrist during the time A crossed 10 meters. Big fucking deal.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 15, 2016)

Grimm said:
			
		

> As for Hbcaptains post, it is a negligible thing. Minato was able to flick his wrist during the time A crossed 10 meters. Big fucking deal.


Not 10 meters but 5cm , Itachi never showed such a raw move speed .


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Is there any evidence that Minato didn't use Hirashin ? I am pretty sure he did, because it has always been the only relevant talk between him and Tobirama.
> 
> As for Hbcaptains post, it is a negligible thing. Minato was able to flick his wrist during the time A crossed 10 meters. Big fucking deal.


That makes no sense. Then why didn't he warp everyone with him? Also, Hiraishin to what tag? And Tobirama clearly said Shunshin.

The kunai is still in his hand. He flicked it before A could cover 1 cm.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> That makes no sense. Then why didn't he warp everyone with him? Also, Hiraishin to what tag? And Tobirama clearly said Shunshin.



It actually does, for the following reasons :

1 - It was implied that they would travel with Hirashin.hand

2 - Contextually, comparing their shunshin wouldn't make sense, as the only thing they have in common is Hirashin. A technique used by both of them.

3 - There were other instances where teleportation was referred to as Shunshin : hand

4 - There is no way in hell Hiruzen is as fast as Tobirama and Hashirama. Also Madara made it clear that Tobirama was the fastest dude in his time, meaning he was the fastest Hashirama included. 

It is pretty clear that Tobirama taxi'd Hashirama and Hiruzen between certain points and Minato simply took off on his own.Maybe he thought he'd arrive to the battlefield faster if he moved individually, I don't know.



> The kunai is still in his hand. He flicked it before A could cover 1 cm.



Thats the thing, Minato couldn't react until A was in his face, in other words Minato couldn't properly react before A could cross 10 meters and the flick of a wrist can't compare to the displacement of the body of a 400 pound man. No matter how you try to spin it, the flick of Minato's wrist doesn't prove anything in compariosn to A's movement.



hbcaptain said:


> Not 10 meters but 5cm , Itachi never showed such a raw move speed .



Flick of a wrist isn't movement speed. And Itachi's hands move so fast that 3 tomoe sharingan can't keep up, which was something that geniunely surprised Kakashi. If Minato had faster hands than Itachi then Kakashi wouldn't be surprised. And Kakashi didn't have 3 tomoe sharingan when he was around Minato.

Let it go.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 15, 2016)

Kakashi coulnd't see Minato' moves when he was young . So it's not an argument , 

His moves (excluding Shunshin) are faster than V2 Ei .


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It actually does, for the following reasons :
> 
> 1 - It was implied that they would travel with Hirashin.hand
> 
> ...


1. Fly outside, not to the war zone. And again, warp to what tag?

2. They both share the Shunshin technique, and both were hyped to be the fastest of their era. So yes, it does contextually make sense, very much so.

3. Ok? Everytime Shunshin is mentioned now it's actually Hiraishin?

4. Maybe they didn't arrive on the actual battle field at the same time, but jumped next to Minato together. They were all behind Minato, that's all that matters.

Also, tell me why Tobirama would say Minato's Hiraishin is faster? Hiraishin is instant.



> Thats the thing, Minato couldn't react until A was in his face, in other words Minato couldn't properly react before A could cross 10 meters and the flick of a wrist can't compare to the displacement of the body of a 400 pound man. No matter how you try to spin it, the flick of Minato's wrist doesn't prove anything in compariosn to A's movement.


Minato physically outpacing A doesn't prove anything?

Looks like you're in denial. The truth is harsh sometimes


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 15, 2016)

Minato's Shunshin is godly. I think it's safe to say his is a bit faster than Itachi's.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 15, 2016)

V2 A is so fast that he can dodge a point-blank Amaterasu, but his full speed couldn't hit Minato at point-blank. Not only did Minato teleport away but he also put himself in a position to counterattack while A was still in the same position. Showing how fast it was done. Tobirama openly admitted that Minato's Shunshin and Hiraishin were faster and/or superior to his own and Tobirama was the fastest of his era, an era that had Hashirama, Madara, and Izuna in it. 

Minato was able to summon Gamabunta and Shunshin to Gamabunta (across the whole village) to land on Kurama's head before Kurama could finish charging a TBB. Later, Kakashi accidentally mistook Naruto for Minato when he first entered KM. Minato's speed's portrayal and hype is consistent throughout the entire series all the way up until the end. No one later on in the series (or earlier in the series for that matter) was very impressed or shocked by Itachi's speed nor commenting on it up until the end of the series. Itachi is fast, fast enough to pressure base B and combat NTCM Naruto (although they were talking about Sasuke and NTCM Naruto never used Shunshin). But when you start putting him on the same level as the top-tier speedsters in the series, especially Minato, is when you start getting crazy.


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> V2 A is so fast that he can dodge a point-blank Amaterasu, but his full speed couldn't hit Minato at point-blank. Not only did Minato teleport away but he also put himself in a position to counterattack while A was still in the same position. Showing how fast it was done. Tobirama openly admitted that Minato's Shunshin and Hiraishin were faster and/or superior to his own and Tobirama was the fastest of his era, an era that had Hashirama, Madara, and Izuna in it.
> 
> Minato was able to summon Gamabunta and Shunshin to Gamabunta (across the whole village) to land on Kurama's head before Kurama could finish charging a TBB. Later, Kakashi accidentally mistook Naruto for Minato when he first entered KM. Minato's speed's portrayal and hype is consistent throughout the entire series all the way up until the end. No one later on in the series (or earlier in the series for that matter) was very impressed or shocked by Itachi's speed nor commenting on it up until the end of the series. Itachi is fast, fast enough to pressure base B and combat NTCM Naruto (although they were talking about Sasuke and NTCM Naruto never used Shunshin). But when you start putting him on the same level as the top-tier speedsters in the series, especially Minato, is when you start getting crazy.


Well said. Itachi is fast, but Minato's on another level.

And i completely forgot about Kakashi mistaking BM Naruto for Minato lawl.

his eye was blind
Sexy


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2016)

Comparing itachi's shunshin speed to Minato's is a terrible joke. 

Minato was able to cross the entire goddamn village in like 1 second when he dropped the frog on Kurama.
What has itachi shown that even close to this? Lol

He also marked the area around the Juubi and no one even noticed him. And that a huge freaking area, what
has itachi shown that even close this?

Not to mention when he saved Kushina from Kurama's attack and then used shunshin to the Tree.

itachi's speed was only in regard to his hand-seals or shadow-clone use. Other than that, I guess he is a bitt better than Kisame

his eye was blind

Who couldn't even comprehend Narudo's speed when he first used Shunshin. lol


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> 1. Fly outside, not to the war zone. And again, warp to what tag?



I don't think such distinction was made. 

Minato had random tags around, maybe Tobirama did as well. I'm not saying that they teleported from Konoha to the Battlefield btw, but they must have used Hirashin when it is convenient. 



> 2. They both share the Shunshin technique, and both were hyped to be the fastest of their era. So yes, it does contextually make sense, very much so.


Everyone shares the shunshin technique, its not exclusive to them. 
What made them stood out was the Hiraishin though. Saying the opposite is like saying Gai's taijutsu hype excluded the usage of gates.

Contextually Hiraishin makes more sense imo.



> 3. Ok? Everytime Shunshin is mentioned now it's actually Hiraishin?


I didn't say that. I am just pointing out that there are instances that Hiraishin as refered to as "shunshin". 



> 4. Maybe they didn't arrive on the actual battle field at the same time, but jumped next to Minato together. They were all behind Minato, that's all that matters.


Thats one assumption. The more likely assumption is that they arrived at the same time.


> Also, tell me why Tobirama would say Minato's Hiraishin is faster? Hiraishin is instant.



I have no idea tbh. From my point of view their Hirashin is exactly the same but the manga and databook keeps saying Minato's is better.

I may be wrong, however, I don't see why they wouldn't use Hirashin whenever it is convenient. 



> Minato physically outpacing A doesn't prove anything?


He never did that, so I have no idea what you are talking about.



> Looks like you're in denial. The truth is harsh sometimes



TBH I really don't care, I call it as I see it.



Hussain said:


> Comparing itachi's shunshin speed to Minato's is a terrible joke.
> 
> Minato was able to cross the entire goddamn village in like 1 second when he dropped the frog on Kurama.
> What has itachi shown that even close to this? Lol
> ...



Or maybe from the story telling perspective it would make no sense for Itachi to leave Kisame in the dust because, you know, they are a unit.
I guess tenten is as fast as Lee his eye was blind
his eye was blind


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato may have faster shunshin, I have nothing against that.
> But shunshin alone doesn't define speed.



No it certainly doesn't 

Hirashin does 

However obito simply won't have said he is true to his monicker if his shunshin speed wasn't very impressive to begin with 

Illustrated by the feat of catching his son mid air before obito could stab him


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## hbcaptain (Mar 15, 2016)

For the 1- :
Tobirama told to Hashirama he can't teleport without marking so he didn't use Hiraishin . :


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## Sadgoob (Mar 15, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Since when your translation is the official one? Can you prove it is official?



The version I have is bought from the author while the one you're referencing is a free fan scan with a fan translation. Both are fun to read, but if we're talking "official," the one I have is more reliable.


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## Dr. White (Mar 15, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Minato's Shunshin is godly. I think it's safe to say his is a bit faster than Itachi's.



Well Itachi's teacher was better and at a younger age


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## Sadgoob (Mar 15, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Well Itachi's teacher was better and at a younger age



Hide yo' wife, hide yo' kids. Shisui of the Shunshin is coming.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Aren't you the guy who said Bruce Lee isn't good enough for the UFC? Sorry but i can't take you seriously.



Yes, Bruce Lee isnt good enough for the UFC. Never compete professionally, didnt have any kind of ground game. 

Minato doesnt have feats to say that he can beat Itachi in a taijutsu match without Hiraishin.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> The version I have is bought from the author while the one you're referencing is a free fan scan with a fan translation. Both are fun to read, but if we're talking "official," the one I have is more reliable.



Imgur is Naruto's author? Cool, i didnt know about that.


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm not saying that they teleported from Konoha to the Battlefield btw





> Thats one assumption. The more likely assumption is that they arrived at the same time.


Make up your mind mate.



> I have no idea tbh.


Kinda hard to convince someone of your argument when you can't even make sense of it yourself mate.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Make up your mind mate.



How are they connected ? 



> Kinda hard to convince someone of your argument when you can't even make sense of it yourself mate.



I think the difference between their Hiraishin is application. 
Tobirama uses the word "better" rather than "faster."
And we know that Minato's Hiraishin is better.


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## ImSerious (Mar 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How are they connected ?


You say you don't think they warped directly to the battlefield, but then say you think they arrived together. Wouldn't Tobirama still outspeed Hashirama and Hiruzen if they didn't warp there directly?




> I think the difference between their Hiraishin is application.
> Tobirama uses the word "better" rather than "faster."
> And we know that Minato's Hiraishin is better.


So Minato uses Hiraishin so much better that he can get there and dispose the Juubidama, have a chat with Naruto and Sakura and spread his tags across the battlefield(which Tobirama and Hiruzen didn't see happen) before the other 3 arrive, also with Hiraishin? Breh.


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2016)

Does star have something to alert him every time Minato is being mentioned
to come and downplay him or is someone paying him? 

This guy disappear for months, and as soon as Minato being brought up he comes to say how much he sucks.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 15, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Imgur is Naruto's author? Cool, i didnt know about that.



I took pictures of the manga I bought, and uploaded it to imgur. Imgur (pronounced /ˈɪmədʒər/, like the word "imager"[1]) is an online image sharing community and image host founded by Alan Schaaf. Imgur allows users to create an account and post images of all sorts. The images can be about games, memes, people, places or anything of personal interest.


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## Veracity (Mar 15, 2016)

Actually the viz Translation has Tobirama saying that Minatos teleportation is better . which most likely refers to Minato's superior FTG usage.


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## Dr. White (Mar 15, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Actually the viz Translation has Tobirama saying that Minatos teleportation is better . which most likely refers to Minato's superior FTG usage.



especially since his FTG has been called shushin before (when Kumo fodder identified FTG with younger Ei).


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2016)

Minato is better than Tobirama at both Shunshin & FTG. Why is this being argued anyway? 

Also, Tobirama is superior to Hashirama in term of speed because of FTG, not because of his Shunshin. So, using that argument is not the smartest thing. The same way how Minato is faster than A with FTG rather than in shunshin. So, if Tobirama's shunshin is equal to Hashirama's shunshin, that does not contradict madara's statement about Tobirama being the fastest in his time because that takes in consideration his FTG as well.


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## Veracity (Mar 15, 2016)

In terms of feats, Minato does not have a better flicker than Tobirama. If your go to argument is " LOL THE KAGE ARRIVED AT THE SAME TIME ," then I'll gladly pass on that debate.

I see no reason for Madara or Hashirama to posses a faster flicker than Tobirama, when his whole arsenal revolves around speed. He has FTG, his body movements are insanely quick, and he has speedy hands- all outright above his brother. I personally see no reason for him to atleast have an equal flicker


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 15, 2016)

Well, Minato crossed the entirety of Konoha and summoned Gamabunta on top of Kurama while he was charging a TBB using Shunshin. As he didn't have any seals on Kurama or Gamabunta, therefore, Shunshin is the only logical deduction. Also, what exactly did Tobirama and the others teleport too? Minato could teleport there because Naruto has his father's seal on him. What does Tobirama have?


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## Veracity (Mar 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Well, Minato crossed the entirety of Konoha and summoned Gamabunta on top of Kurama while he was charging a TBB using Shunshin. As he didn't have any seals on Kurama or Gamabunta, therefore, Shunshin is the only logical deduction. Also, what exactly did Tobirama and the others teleport too? Minato could teleport there because Naruto has his father's seal on him. What does Tobirama have?



Who is this directed towards? 

Base Hashirama outspeed a BD that crossed an entire sea in the blink of an eye.

Sage Naruto could climb the God Tree( countries in length) in mere moments.

Deva jumped clean over a pointblank FRS, that can cross Konoha in a sec.

So yeah..


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## Rocky (Mar 15, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Actually the viz Translation has Tobirama saying that Minatos teleportation is better . which most likely refers to Minato's superior FTG usage.



Typically, "Teleportation" is Shunshin and "Flying Raijin" is Hiraishin. There's also Hiruzen's little "Fast as always, Minato!" remark, so the context of the scene was speed. I'm leaning towards Tobirama praising Minato's Body Flicker, which is most likely how all of the Hokage were traveling to begin with. 

Since they were all going together, none of them would have been going full speed, but Minato might have used his full speed to run ahead and place the markings for the barrier formation (and save the alliance). Tobirama then saw it and noticed it was better than his own, and this interpretation also best explains Hiruzen's comment.


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## Veracity (Mar 15, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Typically, "Teleportation" is Shunshin and "Flying Raijin" is Hiraishin. There's also Hiruzen's little "Fast as always, Minato!" remark, so the context of the scene was speed. I'm leaning towards Tobirama praising Minato's Body Flicker, which is most likely how all of the Hokage were traveling to begin with.
> 
> Since they were all going together, none of them would have been going full speed, but Minato might have used his full speed to run ahead and place the markings for the barrier formation (and save the alliance). Tobirama then saw it and noticed it was better than his own, and this interpretation also best explains Hiruzen's comment.


Yeah no not at all. We have disagreed on this countless amounts of times. 

I'm gonna lean towards teleportation meaning actual teleportation as opposed to body movements. That seems a lot more logical to me. I'm pretty sure FTG has been called teleportation more than once in this manga.

Hiruzens fast as always comment could have been aimed towards a lot of things. Minato is known as the fastest man of his generation literally because of FTG, why are you writing off FTG as in option here?

But honestly the main reason I think Tobirama meant FTG is because he said better as opposed to faster. I feel like if one was to praise the speed of an individuals flicker, they would say faster as opposed to better. It also defeats the whole FTG can't be faster argument that many have made.

I don't think shinobi use flicker to move between battlefields, I mean they all move in unison generally and Im pretty they dont have the ability to perfectly equalize their flickers - especially whole platoons. So I'm not seeing how the Kage landed together while using flickers yet they all posses different flicker speeds. 

So at the very best, you could assume that Tobirama did mean body flicker and that the Kage were moving together using traveling speed, and that Minato alone used flicker. Which would mean that nobody except kishi knows how large gap between tobirama and Minato's flickers are. But via feats , that gap would basically be nonexistent. 

☻


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## Rocky (Mar 16, 2016)

LB said:
			
		

> Hiruzens fast as always comment could have been aimed towards a lot of things.



Sounds like a weak excuse to me. Just what is it you think Hiruzen was commenting on? 



			
				LB said:
			
		

> The main reason I think Tobirama meant FTG is because he said better as opposed to faster.



Oh, so your interpretation doesn't make any sense then, because Tobirama is capable of teleporting Bijūdama too. He was going to do just that against Jesusbito. If you can tell me why Minato warping away Tailed Beast Ball prompted Tobirama to admit inferiority in teleporting things _despite Tobirama believing himself to be capable of the same fucking feat a few chapters later_, then maybe I'll see your point. 



			
				LB said:
			
		

> Which would mean that nobody except kishi knows how large gap between tobirama and Minato's flickers are. But via feats , that gap would basically be nonexistent.



Tobirama doesn't even have any Body Flicker feats. Minato barely has any himself, and he was in KCM for most of the time they were on-panel together. "Via feats," the data is way too limited to conclude anything.


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## Veracity (Mar 16, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Sounds like a weak excuse to me. Just what is it you think Hiruzen was commenting on?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You whole interpretation as to why teleportation means body flicker is pretty weak. I really don't know why you're trying to point fingers here.

FTG = the reason Minato is hailed as super fast. You gotta deal with the fact that FTG refers to speed.

What the hell are you talking about? Minato is more diverse in terms of FTG. He has FTG barrier( which tobirama has never shown) and prepped kunai. He is better than Tobirama at FTG, your argument is irrelevant.

If Tobirama is anything close to Alive Madara ( hyped to be ) in terms of flicker then yes he does.


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## Rocky (Mar 16, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> You whole interpretation as to why teleportation means body flicker is pretty weak.



I own the official translation. Guess what Shunshin is in the Viz? Teleportation Technique. So no, it isn't weak. It's the most straightforward interpretation.  



Likes boss said:


> FTG = the reason Minato is hailed as super fast. You gotta deal with the fact that FTG refers to speed.



And unless Minato teleported to the battlefield by himself without taking anybody with him for no reason at all, then Hiruzen's comment wouldn't have had anything to do with Hiraishin because _teleporting Bijūdama has nothing to do with speed._



Likes boss said:


> What the hell are you talking about?



Do I really need to spell it out? If your argument is that Tobirama said "your teleportation is better than mine" because Minato teleported Bijūdama, then it doesn't make any sense because Tobirama can teleport Bijūdama. 



Likes boss said:


> If Tobirama is anything close to Alive Madara ( hyped to be ) in terms of flicker then yes he does.



One, Tobirama isn't Madara. Two, Madara isn't better than Minato because, for a second time, Minato barely has any feats with the Body Flicker. I'd like to know what you're using to compare.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 16, 2016)

Shisui the Shunshin = Shisui the teleport , Shunshin no Jutsu can be translated as teleportation Jutsu lol .

But Hiraihsin is exclusively tanslated by "Flying Thunder God technique" .

As for the Hokage ,Tobirama clearly told to Hashirama they can't use it to join the battle *because there was no marking *. Learn to read the manga before blablating nonsens .


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## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2016)

For me it's quite clear tobirama meant minato hirashin is better 

1) minato claimed with seals he could wrap 2 juubito dama . Tobirama claimed he could only wrap 1 

2) minato can use S/T barrier 

3) minato got a more diverse hence faster application

However minato is physically faster as of the 2 he is the only one whose physical speed was said to also be a representation of his monicker 

So minato >> tobirama in hirashin and shunshin 

As to getting to the battlefield it's obvious he used hirashin we see him Landing while holding a Kunai 

Not sure how people want to use that to claim minato is physically faster than hashirama . Whether he is or not is irrelevant in battle minato certainly is thanks to hirashin


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## hbcaptain (Mar 16, 2016)

If it was the case , then you hav to agree than Kunai's speed is better/higher than Shunshin .


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 16, 2016)

If he used Hirashin to get there, then the kunai would be stuck in the ground. If he's holding it, that would mean he threw his kunai all the way there then teleported. Or am I missing something?


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## fyhb (Mar 16, 2016)

When did Minato said that he can Teleport 2 Juubidamas ?

And Tobirama coul Teleport 1 but how!?

About FTG I would say that Minato one is Better not Faster,the Speed is the same but Minato just devised his whole Fighting Style around it and Rasengan so for that purpose he devised more practical and diversal use of the FTG with caring already Tagged Kunais while Tobirama Tagged them as he go,and devised his S/T FTF Barrier  although Tobirama may have had something similar since he claimed he can teleport one Juubidama,and FTG Level 2 is Basically something Tobirama uses also but didn't have a hame for it. So what I mean is Minato has more practical use if FTG than Tobirama to compensate for his lack of big Arsenal,while Tobirama has bigger Arsenal l,Kenjutsu,Genjutsu and FTG,he just didn't rely so much on it.

As for Body Speed I would say Tobirama is fatser but when it goes for Shunshin and Reflexes I would say they are equal.


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## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> If it was the case , then you hav to agree than Kunai's speed is better/higher than Shunshin .



Erm yes that's obviously the case 

This has been shown multiple times in the manga 

Bee intercepting Amaterasu 

Sasuke intercepting Amaterasu 

Kakashi throwing a Kunai as fast or almost as fast as TSB 

Also all humans trained at knife throwing will throw said knife faster than they can sprint


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## hbcaptain (Mar 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:
			
		

> Kakashi throwing a Kunai as fast or almost as fast as TSB


No that was because of distance , if it's not the case then Kakashi can one shot Kage levels with a Kunai .


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## ImSerious (Mar 16, 2016)

weak ass arguments in this thread. tell us where minato could have warped to w/o a tag, or why he wouldn't bring the rest with him.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 16, 2016)

> I took pictures of the manga I bought, and uploaded it to imgur. Imgur (pronounced /ˈɪmədʒər/, like the word "imager"[1]) is an online image sharing community and image host founded by Alan Schaaf. Imgur allows users to create an account and post images of all sorts. The images can be about games, memes, people, places or anything of personal interest.



There is no reason to believe you, actually. Let me know when you have a VIZ translation and can actually prove it is VIZ.


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## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> No that was because of distance , if it's not the case then Kakashi can one shot Kage levels with a Kunai .



Minato opted to throw a Kunai to Kakashi who threw it . After TSB was already moving 

Neither opted for Shunshin. The fact is Kunai throw > shunshin speed


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## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> weak ass arguments in this thread. tell us where minato could have warped to w/o a tag, or why he wouldn't bring the rest with him.



What's weak is ignoring on entry to the battlefield he lands where a Kunai is . Which he most likely threw 

All could have seen or sensed the Juubidama and minato went ahead with hirashin to deal with it


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## Jad (Mar 16, 2016)

6 Gates Lee > Minato Shunshin confirmed.


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## ImSerious (Mar 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> What's weak is ignoring on entry to the battlefield he lands where a Kunai is . Which he most likely threw
> 
> All could have seen or sensed the Juubidama and minato went ahead with hirashin to deal with it


? How did Minato go ahead with Hiraishin without a tag on the battlefield?


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## StarWanderer (Mar 16, 2016)

Minato used Shunshin in order to get to the battlefield. Most likely in a combination with Hiraishin, but there was a Shunshin, no doubt about it.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Minato opted to throw a Kunai to Kakashi who threw it . After TSB was already moving
> 
> Neither opted for Shunshin. The fact is Kunai throw > shunshin speed


You are neglecting theconcept of "distance" , Gai was many times closer to Minato&Kakashi than Madara .

Plus you didn't answer me about my question : How the hell the other Kage are going to dodge such a fast kunai (even V3 Ei pale in comparison) .


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## Jad (Mar 16, 2016)

Minato and Kakashi weren't close to Gai. Gai's Hirudora was the size of 10 percent  Katsuya in diameter. That's massive distance.


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## trance (Mar 16, 2016)

His speed never seemed to be anything truly out of this world but he still has a fairly nice compilation of speed feats to draw from. I'd say he was above average when it came to movement speed when compared to similarly highly regarded, elite ninja.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 16, 2016)

No Gai was much much closer to the Senseis , he was projected back after the impact .

And as I said do you think Kakashi can OS most of Kage level only using a Kunai ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 16, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> You say you don't think they warped directly to the battlefield, but then say you think they arrived together. Wouldn't Tobirama still outspeed Hashirama and Hiruzen if they didn't warp there directly?



They probably used him as a taxi. He warped them whenever he could.

For some reason the 3 of them moved as a unit and Minato got seperated.
Tobirama wouldn't call Minato's Shunshin/teleportation better than his if he didn't move as fast he could. So you can rule out Tobirama going slower than usual to keep pace with Hiruzen.

That leaves 2 options. Either Hiruzen can move as fast as Tobirama or Tobirama used Hiraishin so that 3 of them could move @ the same speed.



> So Minato uses Hiraishin so much better that he can get there and dispose the Juubidama, have a chat with Naruto and Sakura and spread his tags across the battlefield(which Tobirama and Hiruzen didn't see happen) before the other 3 arrive, also with Hiraishin? Breh.



Kishimoto thinks so, not me.



Rocky said:


> Typically, "Teleportation" is Shunshin and "Flying Raijin" is Hiraishin. There's also Hiruzen's little "Fast as always, Minato!" remark, so the context of the scene was speed. I'm leaning towards Tobirama praising Minato's Body Flicker, which is most likely how all of the Hokage were traveling to begin with.



deadlock Kisame



> Since they were all going together, none of them would have been going full speed, but Minato might have used his full speed to run ahead and place the markings for the barrier formation (and save the alliance). Tobirama then saw it and noticed it was better than his own, and this interpretation also best explains Hiruzen's comment.



Read above. Why would Tobirama tell him that his shunshin/hiraishin is better than his if he wasn't moving @ full speed ?


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## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> ? How did Minato go ahead with Hiraishin without a tag on the battlefield?






He threw the mark and landed next to the Kunai we literately see him on entry holding a Kunai crouched down


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## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2016)

Notice Kunai in bottom left panel 
deadlock Kisame

Notice minato entry holding a kunai

deadlock Kisame

Clearly used hirashin to get there . Or there won't be 2 panels with his Kunai being shown


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## hbcaptain (Mar 16, 2016)

He used FTG to get here not in the middle of his running form Konoha to the battlfield . Plus Tobirama clearly stated Minato has better Shunshin so ....


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## ImSerious (Mar 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They probably used him as a taxi. He warped them whenever he could.
> 
> For some reason the 3 of them moved as a unit and Minato got seperated.
> Tobirama wouldn't call Minato's Shunshin/teleportation better than his if he didn't move as fast he could. So you can rule out Tobirama going slower than usual to keep pace with Hiruzen.
> ...


It sounds to me like you don't even believe in your own argument. I think ima stick with my more logical interpretation.




Icegaze said:


> He threw the mark and landed next to the Kunai we literately see him on entry holding a Kunai crouched down





Icegaze said:


> Notice Kunai in bottom left panel
> deadlock Kisame
> 
> Notice minato entry holding a kunai
> ...


 Minato clearly threw that kunai after he had already gotten to the battlefield.

You're saying Minato used Hiraishin _to get to the battlefield_, so again, what tag did he warp to?


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## fyhb (Mar 16, 2016)

May be the Hokage decided to split and while Tobirama FTG with Hashirama and Hiruzen,Minato FTG on his own to get to the Battlefield and get things ready for the Barrier.

And this way they would all get there faster than just Shinobi Running or Shunshin to there.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 16, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> It sounds to me like you don't even believe in your own argument. I think ima stick with my more logical interpretation.



So you gonna keep livin in denial.. fine 

Seriously though read Minato's and Hiraishin's databook entries, it is emphasized over and over again how Minato improved Hiraishin.

Contextually, Hiraishin is relevant talk between Minato and Tobirama when it is about speed.




ImSerious said:


> You're saying Minato used Hiraishin _to get to the battlefield_, so again, what tag did he warp to?



The tag on Hachibee ?

Hiraishin mark never dissapears you know


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## ImSerious (Mar 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you gonna keep livin in denial.. fine
> 
> Seriously though read Minato's and Hiraishin's databook entries, it is emphasized over and over again how Minato improved Hiraishin.
> 
> Contextually, Hiraishin is relevant talk between Minato and Tobirama when it is about speed.


I don't even know what your argument is anymore bro. It's like you're writing your own fanfic just so you don't have to accept that Minato's faster than Itachi.






> The tag on Hachibee ?
> 
> Hiraishin mark never dissapears you know


The same tentacles that get cut off left and right. I'm pretty sure if the tag was still on Bee it would have been noted.


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## fyhb (Mar 16, 2016)

Isn't Shunshin just as Super Speed Boy Moving Tech.although it is trasnalted as Teleporation it is still just Runing Moving !?


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## Saru (Mar 16, 2016)

Jad said:


> 6 Gates Lee > Minato Shunshin confirmed.




That's not hard to buy at all. It would be pretty messed up if Lee had to open Six Gates just to outspeed Minato with none when Lee's already supposed to be a relatively fast character.​


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## Itachі (Mar 16, 2016)

turning an itachi thread into a minato thread


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## ImSerious (Mar 16, 2016)

Don't act surprised


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## fyhb (Mar 16, 2016)

But that would mean that Hiruzen is faster with Shunshin than Hashirama and Tobirama!?

Although I think the order of which they arrived bar Minato is just symbolic of their Order and how Hashirama and Tobirama are brothers or something like that.


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## Veracity (Mar 16, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I own the official translation. Guess what Shunshin is in the Viz? Teleportation Technique. So no, it isn't weak. It's the most straightforward interpretation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I take it you probably didn't go through ever chapter FTG was mentioned and see what it was referred to. Wouldn't be surprised if it was called teleportation. Kishi doesn't necessarily call things one name all the time. I mean he calls FTG flicker or shunshin at times, let's be real here.

Who said Tobirama and Hiruzen were referring to the same thing? He easily could have been referring to the way in which Minato placed kunai around the Juubi.

☻
Lol what? There is no proof that Tobirama can open up a portal and warp a BD. That is Minato's technique. Tobirama easily could have capitalized on his Edo Body, and warped the BD away with his own body in that instance.

I don't see why Tobirama would be physically slower than Madara. And barely any, isn't none.☻ He still has feats.


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