# {Chapter 658} Current Gaara + Shukaku vs Itachi Uchiha



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 11, 2013)

Battlefield: Edo Kages vs Fourth Division
Starting Distance: 60 Meters
Restrictions: None
Knowledge: Itachi knows of Gaara's Sand Abilities up to the point of the knowledge Deidara gained, and Gaara knows of Itachi's Sharingan and Mangekyo and its danger.

Who wins?


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## Ersa (Dec 11, 2013)

Mangekyo Sharingan can control the Kyuubi so the weakest Bijuu is no problem. While Gaara tries to break Shukaku out of the genjutsu, Itachi blindsides him and burns him to a pulp with Amaterasu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Mangekyo Sharingan can control the Kyuubi so the weakest Bijuu is no problem. While Gaara tries to break Shukaku out of the genjutsu, Itachi blindsides him and burns him to a pulp with Amaterasu.


Only Madara and Obito have been able to control Biju with their MS. Itachi, despite having the MS showed no affinity to being able to control any Biju. Gaara also can defend against Amaterasu. And what's so hard about using a Kai to break the genjutsu, if Itachi can actually do it, on Shukaku?


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## Trojan (Dec 11, 2013)

Gaara without his Bijuu can win more times than not against itachi, with his Bijuu
he still win more times than not with some bonus.


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## Ersa (Dec 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only Madara and Obito have been able to control Biju with their MS. Itachi, despite having the MS showed no affinity to being able to control any Biju. Gaara also can defend against Amaterasu. And what's so hard about using a Kai to break the genjutsu, if Itachi can actually do it, on Shukaku?


MS grants the power to control the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi is on a different level to Shukaku, if Sasuke was able to suppress a portion of the strongest Bijuu's power without MS you really think Itachi who shits on Sasuke in terms of genjutsu, has the requirements to control the Kyuubi can't control Shukaku? That's like saying if Itachi can't control Madara with genjutsu then he can't control Uchiha fodder. Cause the difference between Kyuubi and Shukaku is kinda big you know? 

Gaara defended against flames manipulated by Enton, you know this SSM12. Check the Viz translation if you don't believe me and you think his sand can move at V2 Ei speeds?

While Gaara tries to Kai him, Itachi can hit him with Amaterasu. The dude almost blindsided Killer B (Viz suggested he needed a warning), Gaara with his 3 in speed isn't doing anything nor can his sand.


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## Chaelius (Dec 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only Madara and Obito have been able to control Biju with their MS. Itachi, despite having the MS showed no affinity to being able to control any Biju. Gaara also can defend against Amaterasu. And what's so hard about using a Kai to break the genjutsu, if Itachi can actually do it, on Shukaku?



That's not Amaterasu, it's enton, it's right there on the page, why do people still confuse this


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## Ersa (Dec 11, 2013)

Because they need to downplay Amaterasu 

The comment Sasuke makes confirms it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> MS grants the power to control the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi is on a different level to Shukaku, if Sasuke was able to suppress a portion of the strongest Bijuu's power without MS you really think Itachi who shits on Sasuke in terms of genjutsu, has the requirements to control the Kyuubi can't control Shukaku? That's like saying if Itachi can't control Madara with genjutsu then he can't control Uchiha fodder. Cause the difference between Kyuubi and Shukaku is kinda big you know?


But Itachi has _no feats in that regard_, nor was it alluded to be that at all. Hell he had a chance to try to suppress at least Kurama's power on Naruto on _multiple occasions_ but again, never showed the ability. The only Uchiha who have managed to control Tailed Beasts are Madara and Obito Uchiha, that is it. That's manga canon.


> Gaara defended against flames manipulated by Enton, you know this SSM12. Check the Viz translation if you don't believe me and you think his sand can move at V2 Ei speeds?


Enton can mean just 'flames' instead of 'Blaze Release', you know that right? And the Amaterasu would have to be launched before Enton could manipulate it. And why wouldn't it? Gaara's sand speed and strength have been improved a lot since Part I.


> While Gaara tries to Kai him, Itachi can hit him with Amaterasu. The dude almost blindsided Killer B (Viz suggested he needed a warning), Gaara with his 3 in speed isn't doing anything nor can his sand.


Itachi isn't hitting him with Amaterasu. And no, I have volume right here: it never suggested Bee needed a warning _at all_ with how casually he dealt with it.


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## Trojan (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Because they need to downplay Amaterasu
> 
> The comment Sasuke makes confirms it.



Amaterasu is weaker than Enton.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 11, 2013)

SSM12 made an Itachi thread.

WELL, THERE'S NOTHING OBVIOUS ABOUT THAT.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Battlefield: Edo Kages vs Fourth Division
> Starting Distance: 60 Meters



Desert environment and absurd starting distance that's well outside of Itachi's fighting range?

NOPE, DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH THIS, EITHER.



> Knowledge: Itachi knows of Gaara's Sand Abilities up to the point of the knowledge Deidara gained, and Gaara knows of Itachi's Sharingan and Mangekyo and its danger.



Gaara knows virtually everything while Itachi knows virtually nothing?

I'M STARTING TO THINK THERE MIGHT BE SOME KIND OF AGENDA HERE...



> Who wins?



HMM, THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION

THESE CIRCUMSTANCES MAKE IT A REAL TOSS-UP

I DUNNO





































*Spoiler*: __ 



Gaara and Shukaku spam ranged attacks, which Itachi either dodges or no-sells with Susano'o if he is unable to dodge. At this point, Gaara has already seen Soutaisou fail against Susano'o, so he's probably not going to go for that right away and risk the same thing happening again. Gaara will probably try to buy time and keep Itachi at a distance until he can seize an opening.

Itachi, on the other hand, will realize his time with Susano'o is extremely limited and look for the first possible opportunity to switch with a clone. Given the speed at which he can accomplish this, the tactic's almost guaranteed to buy him enough time to slip into close range.

Then come Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Shukaku's pretty much nothing more than a giant target; he can probably remove large slabs of his sandy body to escape Amaterasu, but I'm unsure of how he can handle Tsukuyomi (or Itachi's more conventional Genjutsu, for that matter). Gaara can also counter Amaterasu, but Tsukuyomi is something he can't defend against and there's no apparent warning when the Jutsu is executed. Itachi's regular Genjutsu also poses a threat to Gaara, and not knowing about Itachi's ability to cast Genjutsu from his fingers puts Gaara in a position to be caught off-guard by that.

Ultimately, it's a race against the stamina clock for Itachi; he has to sink or swim with his MS hax, superior speed, and superior wit in the time he can effectively make use of these advantages, or Gaara and Shukaku are going to very comfortably hold him off and overwhelm him.

Susano'o itself is probably Itachi's best bet to end this; the Totsuka no Tsurugi can remove Shukaku from the battlefield, and then Itachi can focus all of his attention on Gaara.

Most likely, Itachi just blitzes and ragdolls him with Susano'o once Shukaku is out of the picture; Gaara doesn't seem able to stop that Jutsu without backup, considering the fact that it penetrated his ultimate shield and now his and Shukaku's ultimate sealing Jutsu as well.

Worst-case scenario, Itachi has to start thinking about Izanami.

All things considered, this match can probably go either way and there are a lot of variables that can determine the outcome. I might actually be inclined to say Gaara would be the probable victor if not for the simple fact that his opponent is Itachi and we've been down that road enough times to know better by now.

Itachi has to play a perfect or near-perfect game to win, but that's not uncharacteristic of him at all. On the other hand, Gaara really can't afford to make any mistakes, either.

So I guess the irony here is that this is actually a very close match.


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## Ersa (Dec 11, 2013)

Niku, 60m isn't that much for some of Naruto's faster characters like Itachi. The FRS crossed the CT crater before Pein had counted a second and he moved fast enough to dodge that. Itachi is much faster then Pein.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But Itachi has _no feats in that regard_, nor was it alluded to be that at all. Hell he had a chance to try to suppress at least Kurama's power on Naruto on _multiple occasions_ but again, never showed the ability. The only Uchiha who have managed to control Tailed Beasts are Madara and Obito Uchiha, that is it. That's manga canon.


He never had to suppress it, why would he? Naruto is a Konoha shinobi. Twice he simply trapped Naruto in genjutsu, the third time he had a brief taijutsu skirmish with him then fought B.

So what? Just because someone lacks the feats but has the requirements to do it doesn't mean they can't do it. Obito hasn't used Human Path but he has it. Itachi has an MS, he has been shown to control Perfect Sages, I don't think the weakest Bijuu is a problem. Shukaku is an ant compared to the Kyuubi.

Also Tsukiyomi works, it only takes 2-3 seconds and Shukaku doesn't have mindfuck resistance like Kyuubi does.


> Enton can mean just 'flames' instead of 'Blaze Release', you know that right? And the Amaterasu would have to be launched before Enton could manipulate it. And why wouldn't it? Gaara's sand speed and strength have been improved a lot since Part I.


He manipulated the Amaterasu from his Ei fight...



> Itachi isn't hitting him with Amaterasu. And no, I have volume right here: it never suggested Bee needed a warning _at all_ with how casually he dealt with it.


Amaterasu was so fast KCM Naruto from 20m leapt after the flames hit and thought they'd missed. Gaara isn't dodging them, nor can his sand intercept it. And yes B needed the warning, Got it implies he wasn't aware Itachi was there. Also Killer B missed Itachi's Shunshin the first time in the fight if you notice the "?!"


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> He never had to suppress it, why would he? Naruto is a Konoha shinobi. Twice he simply trapped Naruto in genjutsu, the third time he had a brief taijutsu skirmish with him then fought B.


If he suppressed it in Part I, he could have buyed a bit more time for Jiraiya to arrive and convince Kisame not to chop off Naruto's legs. And in Part II, he could have suppressed Naruto's KN0 without him making contact with the Odama Rasengan. And when he fought Naruto and Bee, _he was forced to go all out_ due to the tag in his mind and he STILL couldn't suppress the Fox's power. All points to he CAN'T.


> So what? Just because someone lacks the feats but has the requirements to do it doesn't mean they can't do it. Obito hasn't used Human Path but he has it. Itachi has an MS, he has been shown to control Perfect Sages, I don't think the weakest Bijuu is a problem. Shukaku is an ant compared to the Kyuubi.


He can't do it. Giving him the feats of others means he can't do it at all. And all the Biju barring Kurama are about even in power. Finally, Obito _said he can use Human Path_ but explicitly didn't want to use it on Yamato due to it killing him. And he never 'controlled a perfect Sage' with genjutsu. He trapped Kabuto in a genjutsu _specifically designed for him_. Stop wanking Itachi and giving him feats he does. Not. Have.


> Also Tsukiyomi works, it only takes 2-3 seconds and Shukaku doesn't have mindfuck resistance like Kyuubi does.


When has Tsukuyomi ever been shown strong enough to affect a Biju at all? Show the feats.


> He manipulated the Amaterasu from his Ei fight...


You mean the same Amaterasu which had disappeared? Sasuke had to create new Amaterasu for his Enton to manipulate.



> Amaterasu was so fast KCM Naruto from 20m leapt after the flames hit and thought they'd missed. Gaara isn't dodging them, nor can his sand intercept it. And yes B needed the warning, Got it implies he wasn't aware Itachi was there. Also Killer B missed Itachi's Shunshin the first time in the fight if you notice the "?!"


You mean after KCM Naruto was still recovering _from a fucking crow clawing its way out of his insides_ on 7% chakra? Gaara has Amaterasu blocking feats, has intercepted A's speed, and even defended himself from attacks from Madara.

And Killer Bee never needed the warning. He said 'Got it' so casually he knew it was coming. Not only THAT, Killer Bee exclaimed that since he wasn't expecting a fight when they were just TALKING. 

Stop. Wanking. Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Niku, 60m isn't that much for some of Naruto's faster characters like Itachi.



The problem is that Gaara also has superhuman speed/reaction time, and this distance only gives him ample opportunity to prepare himself.

And it also gives him attack priority over Itachi, which he would not have otherwise.



> The FRS crossed the CT crater before Pein had counted a second and he moved fast enough to dodge that. Itachi is much faster then Pein.



I actually wouldn't say Itachi is much if at all faster than Pain Tendou.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 11, 2013)

Itachi can't control bijū with genjutsu. Ignore canon

Gaara blocked Amaterasu, not an Enton. Ignore canon.

The Totsuka can't pierce Shukaku. Only teapots work on him.​


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## Nikushimi (Dec 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Stop. Wanking. Itachi.



Why even make this thread if you're just going to accuse anyone who rules in favor of Itachi of wanking him?


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## Ersa (Dec 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The problem is that Gaara also has superhuman speed/reaction time, and this distance only gives him ample opportunity to prepare himself.
> 
> I actually wouldn't say Itachi is much if at all faster than Pain Tendou.


Why isn't Itachi faster then Tendou? Tendou was slower then Pein Arc Sage Mode Naruto. Itachi tussled with a weakened KCM Naruto (who is still much faster then Pein Arc SM Naruto), feinted SM Kabuto (again much faster then Pein Arc SM Naruto). And a weakened Tendou dodged that FRS. Gaara may have superhuman reactions but he's still average for a Kage, 3 in speed isn't going to cut it here.


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## ZE (Dec 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> SuperSaiyanMan says Itachi can't control bijū with genjutsu? Shocker. What's next, that Gaara blocked Amaterasu and not an Enton?​



The manga stated the MS is just to control the Kyuubi. The other bijuus weren't mentioned 



Kyokan said:


> Niku, 60m isn't that much for some of Naruto's faster characters like Itachi. The FRS crossed the CT crater before Pein had counted a second and he moved fast enough to dodge that. Itachi is much faster then Pein.



What do you base this on? Just curious. 
Pain is at least as fast as the third Raikage considering that the alliance flipped out at how fast he was just because he dodged the FRS after having it as close to him as it was when Deva dodged it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Why even make this thread if you're just going to accuse anyone who rules in favor of Itachi of wanking him?


Since wanking here is giving Itachi not only feats he doesn't have, but ignores the advantages Gaara and Shukaku have. At least your analysis, Nikushimi, gave a good reason for the fight going either way. Kyokan though didn't.



Kyokan said:


> Why isn't Itachi faster then Tendou? Tendou was slower then Pein Arc Sage Mode Naruto. Itachi tussled with a weakened KCM Naruto (who is still much faster then Pein Arc SM Naruto), feinted SM Kabuto (again much faster then Pein Arc SM Naruto). And a weakened Tendou dodged that FRS. Gaara may have superhuman reactions but he's still average for a Kage, 3 in speed isn't going to cut it here.


Since Itachi doesn't have the feats for it? A weakened KCM Naruto moved _just as fast as base Naruto does_. Clone feints aren't speed which Itachi used on SM Kabuto-who doesn't have the feats to say he's faster than SM Naruto at all. And it took a Raikage to dodge FRS too, only he and Tendo have been able to dodge it. Gaara isn't an 'average Kage' considering he defeated _two_ Kages, defended himself from five Susano'o's, and could _control a person's body by just scratching_ after injecting sand in. Gaara's reactions and speed are a lot higher than the 3 he got in the outdated databook Kyokan.


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## ZE (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Why isn't Itachi faster then Tendou? Tendou was slower then Pein Arc Sage Mode Naruto. Itachi tussled with a weakened KCM Naruto (who is still much faster then Pein Arc SM Naruto), feinted SM Kabuto (again much faster then Pein Arc SM Naruto). And a weakened Tendou dodged that FRS. Gaara may have superhuman reactions but he's still average for a Kage, 3 in speed isn't going to cut it here.



Using these type of comparisons will lead you nowhere.
Deva wounded Kakashi in a taijutsu fight in mere three panels, proving to be at least comparable in speed to the same guy who could cope with Itachi's speed. And that was a Deva with 1/6 of Nagato's chakra. 

He also could deal with SM Naruto's speed without too much hassle, the problem was the difference in strength. Naruto never blitzed Deva, on the contrary, Deva was the one who blitzed base Naruto.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Why isn't Itachi faster then Tendou? Tendou was slower then Pein Arc Sage Mode Naruto. Itachi tussled with a weakened KCM Naruto (who is still much faster then Pein Arc SM Naruto), feinted SM Kabuto (again much faster then Pein Arc SM Naruto). And a weakened Tendou dodged that FRS.



I really don't see any apparent difference in speed between Sage Naruto and 1/13 KCM Naruto. Not saying they're equivalent, but I just don't see any _evident_ difference.



> Gaara may have superhuman reactions but he's still average for a Kage, 3 in speed isn't going to cut it here.



It was good enough for the four Edo Kage and Madara at shorter distances.


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## Ersa (Dec 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If he suppressed it in Part I, he could have buyed a bit more time for Jiraiya to arrive and convince Kisame not to chop off Naruto's legs. And in Part II, he could have suppressed Naruto's KN0 without him making contact with the Odama Rasengan. And when he fought Naruto and Bee, _he was forced to go all out_ due to the tag in his mind and he STILL couldn't suppress the Fox's power. All points to he CAN'T.


He still saved Naruto's ass. Kisame stated the two of them could've taken Jiraiya (check the Viz) with Itachi's power. Shoten Itachi didn't want to win the fight, why hinder his own people? 

So taijutsu is all-out? KCM Naruto was going all out 



> He can't do it. Giving him the feats of others means he can't do it at all. And all the Biju barring Kurama are about even in power. Finally, Obito _said he can use Human Path_ but explicitly didn't want to use it on Yamato due to it killing him. And he never 'controlled a perfect Sage' with genjutsu. He trapped Kabuto in a genjutsu _specifically designed for him_. Stop wanking Itachi and giving him feats he does. Not. Have.


But Obito doesn't have the feat. Itachi doesn't but they both have statements saying they can. Stop committing logical fallacies. If you accept Obito has Human Path then Itachi can control the Kyuubi.



> When has Tsukuyomi ever been shown strong enough to affect a Biju at all? Show the feats.


When has Shukaku been able to tank one of the strongest MS genjutsu? Kyuubi can because he's been chained to a rock for 15+ years but he's the Kyuubi. Shukaku is an ant.



> You mean the same Amaterasu which had disappeared? Sasuke had to create new Amaterasu for his Enton to manipulate.


Not going to bother, you are lost. Everyone in this thread agrees it's not Amaterasu.



> You mean after KCM Naruto was still recovering _from a fucking crow clawing its way out of his insides_ on 7% chakra? Gaara has Amaterasu blocking feats, has intercepted A's speed, and even defended himself from attacks from Madara.
> 
> And Killer Bee never needed the warning. He said 'Got it' so casually he knew it was coming. Not only THAT, Killer Bee exclaimed that since he wasn't expecting a fight when they were just TALKING.
> 
> Stop. Wanking. Itachi.


He wasn't 7%, he was weakened. People need to stop pulling this card, 7% KCM Naruto claimed he was much stronger then SM Naruto. Gaara didn't intercept anything. He intercepted Ei in free-fall, good job.

Got it means he got the warning. How come Naruto could track it then? Weakened KCM Naruto > B in speed.

It's not wanking when it's true.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since wanking here is giving Itachi not only feats he doesn't have, but ignores the advantages Gaara and Shukaku have. At least your analysis, Nikushimi, gave a good reason for the fight going either way. Kyokan though didn't.



My analysis was also predicated on feats Itachi does not have (e.g., sealing Bijuu and possibly downing them with Genjutsu, which I know you don't agree with).

Kyokan gave his reasoning, which you also evidently don't agree with.

So I'm not seeing how Kyokan's assessment is any less valid than mine here; you seem to be accusing him of wanking simply because he interpreted his evidence differently than you do.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 11, 2013)

ZE said:


> The manga stated the MS is just to control the Kyuubi. The other bijuus weren't mentioned



That's true, but the databook says that same genjutsu control was used with the 3-tomoe to control other bijū, and Manda. Hence the "extrapolation" that it can work on pretty much any animal.



> [Eye power]
> The main reason why the "Sharingan" was feared by everyone, including the inhabitants of the village, is the power hidden in those eyes, able to subdue even "bijuu". Sasuke, who is rapidly mastering his skills as an Uchiha, is also gradually awakening to that cursed power.



And that's not even addressing the fact that Itachi's  is above any other Uchiha, as stated by Shikaku and friends. Itachi's a genjutsu specialist with a supposed Yin affinity...​


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## ZE (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Got it means he got the warning. How come Naruto could track it then? Weakened KCM Naruto > B in speed.



Yet Nagato was the first one to note Itachi's movement and warned them even before Naruto said anything. And who was the one controlling Deva again? So how come Itachi is that much faster than Deva as you say?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 11, 2013)

Deva's a puppet controlled from a mile away, not Nagato. It makes sense that there would be some lag between Nagato's mental reflex and it reaching the puppet from that distance .​


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## Ersa (Dec 11, 2013)

ZE said:


> Yet Nagato was the first one to note Itachi's movement and warned them even before Naruto said anything. And who was the one controlling Deva again? So how come Itachi is that much faster than Deva as you say?


Nagato has Rinnegan sensing and top notch reflexes himself, he's probably got better reflexes then a weakened KCM Naruto. Plus he was kinda next to Itachi while Naruto wasn't. Distance helps.

Itachi is faster then Deva, the latter was indeed pressured by Naruto's strength but also his speed. He was slower, albeit not by much. War Arc Naruto is stronger and faster then Pein Arc Naruto, so his SM is superior and his KCM is even stronger. Even weakened he shouldn't be much different from SM Naruto from the Pein Arc and Itachi held up fine. Not to mention he clone-feinted SM Kabuto who can dodge Susanoo arrows (meaning he's much faster then Kakashi).


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## Nikushimi (Dec 11, 2013)

I feel like there are some highlights I should briefly address for the sake of keeping this discussion honest:


Itachi and base Killer B are not significantly different in speed one way or the other. Even if you believe Itachi got B's back without his knowledge, B still reacted to the attack despite only being warned during it, which probably doesn't speak better of Itachi than if B simply anticipated the blitz himself, actually.
If you believe that KCM Naruto was holding back because he didn't use chakra arms or Rasengans, then you HAVE to accept that Itachi was holding back because he didn't use Susano'o or any other Jutsu. Taking it at face value, they just had a brief Taijutsu exchange and performed equally.
Itachi never had an opportunity to face a Bijuu, so claiming that he was never shown able to control one or that Tsukuyomi doesn't have the feats of affecting one doesn't prove anything.
As you were, gentlemen.


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## ZE (Dec 11, 2013)

If anything, Deva should be faster given that he can walk and move at will. Nagato's movements should be slow as it happens when you barely have any muscle on your body. All things considered, SM Naruto's speed was never a problem. Nor was the FRS,  Kakashi or KN6. So we have a low-end here. 

He's at least on par with the third Raikage and Kakashi and KN6.
He could be even faster than that depending on how weakened Shinra Tensei left Nagato.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> He still saved Naruto's ass. Kisame stated the two of them could've taken Jiraiya (check the Viz) with Itachi's power. Shoten Itachi didn't want to win the fight, why hinder his own people?


How'd Itachi save Naruto's ass there? And the Viz never said that, Kisame was expressing annoyance at a retreat when the fight was just getting good. Not only that, he apparently didn't notice Itachi _panting in exhaustion there_ and being unable to use his Sharingan.

And Itachi is a pretty sucky double agent. He's shown that he's fine with killing Konoha Shinobi and hindering them. 


> So taijutsu is all-out? KCM Naruto was going all out




1. Edo Tensei are programmed to respond on their own and Kabuto had no reason to hold Itachi back. 
2. KCM Naruto wasn't going all out.



> But Obito doesn't have the feat. Itachi doesn't but they both have statements saying they can. Stop committing logical fallacies. If you accept Obito has Human Path then Itachi can control the Kyuubi.


There is no 'logical fallacy'. Obito said he can use Human Path. Now where did Itachi ever say he could control Kurama huh? Not only that, where's the fucking FEATS of it? Where has Itachi ever thought or shown he can do it?



> When has Shukaku been able to tank one of the strongest MS genjutsu? Kyuubi can because he's been chained to a rock for 15+ years but he's the Kyuubi. Shukaku is an ant.


When has Tsukuyomi ever been useful on a high level opponent? Shukaku, as this chapter showed, is equal to Biju 1-7 or 1-8. He isn't an 'ant' especially in the desert.



> Not going to bother, you are lost. Everyone in this thread agrees it's not Amaterasu.


Except the manga shows that Sasuke dispelled his flames before the fight with Gaara started. Sasuke had to create new Amaterasu and then attack with it.



> He wasn't 7%, he was weakened. People need to stop pulling this card, 7% KCM Naruto claimed he was much stronger then SM Naruto. Gaara didn't intercept anything. He intercepted Ei in free-fall, good job.


He was practically at 7%. He fucking lost KCM after the battle after all. Gaara intercepted A's speed (not freefall giving how A attacks) and Enton: Kagutsuchi.


> Got it means he got the warning. How come Naruto could track it then? Weakened KCM Naruto > B in speed.


Fucking prove it other than Itachi wanking then? 'Got it' means 'I know!' He said it so casually he wasn't even bothered by Itachi's speed.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 11, 2013)

Hmm, I don't remember anybody giving Itachi warnings because of Bee's movements.​


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## Sadgoob (Dec 11, 2013)

ZE said:


> If anything, Deva should be faster given that he can walk and move at will. Nagato's movements should be slow as it happens when you barely have any muscle on your body. All things considered, SM Naruto's speed was never a problem. Nor was the FRS,  Kakashi or KN6. So we have a low-end here.
> 
> He's at least on par with the third Raikage and Kakashi and KN6.
> He could be even faster than that depending on how weakened Shinra Tensei left Nagato.



Is that to my last response to you? Moving isn't a factor in noticing movement. Edo Nagato reacted to Edo Itachi's flicker before Bee because Edo Nagato has better reflexes.

And like you mentioned before, Nagato's superior reflexes and ninjutsu ability allow him to use Asura cybernetics to move, which is better than muscular speed anyway.

Nagato using Asura > Deva = v1 Raikage​


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## ZE (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Itachi is faster then Deva, the latter was indeed pressured by Naruto's strength but also his speed. He was slower, albeit not by much.



Never happened. 
Remember, dodging Naruto's punches and kicks was not an option, Deva had to block them. See what happened to Fat Pain. Every instance Deva blocked Naruto's attacks, he did so effortlessly. Naruto was never shown to be faster than Deva. If he was, he would've gotten murdered considering that Naruto was that much stronger than a Deva lacking ST. So your premises has a flaw on it from the get go.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 11, 2013)

I said along time ago that Gaara was one of the few characters that could give Itachi a run for his money since he literally counters everything they have shown thus far. People laughed ....Gaara IMO is vastly underrated

He has defense against Genjutsu:
Flight
Third Eye
Sand shield

Has Defense against Amaterasu:
Sand Shield(will be to slow unless the distance is great)
Sand Armor - Gaara seems to always have this ready....
Sand Clone
Flight

Has Defense & Great offense vs Susanoo
Prison Sand Burial
Sand Coffin
Sand tsunami
Sand Prison
Wind Release: Infinite Sand Cloud - can be accomplished by Shukaku. Similar technique Danzo used to break Sauske Susano defense however instead of inhaling it exhales
Flight

Basically we have seen him block sasuke Enton, Madaras Magatama(with the help of Onoki), rip Madara out of Susanno and etc

It's going to come down to if Itachi can land the sword of totsuka.

Do not get me wrong Itachi is vastly superior to Gaara overall however Gaaras unique style gives him a HUGE advantage


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## ZE (Dec 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Is that to my last response to you? Moving isn't a factor in noticing movement. Edo Nagato reacted to Edo Itachi's flicker before Bee because Edo Nagato has better reflexes.​



And I just told you that your physical condition should also affect your reflexes. 



> And like you mentioned before, Nagato's superior reflexes and ninjutus ability allow him to use Asura cybernetics to move, which is better than muscular speed anyway.


But he didn't use it when Itachi went to attack the jinchuurikis. So that was not needed. 



> Deva Path is on par with the v1 Raikage though, IMO.


That's a low-end. 

Also, you forgot that the Deva Naruto fought was weakened. 
Before the ST, Deva easily dealt with Kakashi's speed in what was a three-panel skirmish. 



Basically, what I'm saying here. Saying that Itachi is so much faster than Deva is nonsense as that would mean Itachi is so much faster than KN6, Kakashi etc. The only characters that are much faster than these guys are Minato, Ei, Jyuubi and Naruto.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 11, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Madaras Magatama(with the help of Onoki)



Without Ōnoki he'd be boned though. Itachi has that jutsu.



Complete_Ownage said:


> rip Madara out of Susanno and etc



With Ōnoki's and others' help, mind you. The sand was lightened.

And Madara's focus was split.



Complete_Ownage said:


> It's going to come down to if Itachi can land the sword of totsuka



On Shukaku?


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## IchLiebe (Dec 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except the manga shows that Sasuke dispelled his flames before the fight with Gaara started. Sasuke had to create new Amaterasu and then attack with it.



Sasuke used Enton without amaterasu when he protected himself from Raikages karate chop.



> He was practically at 7%. He fucking lost KCM after the battle after all. Gaara intercepted A's speed (not freefall giving how A attacks) and Enton: Kagutsuchi.



That doesn't mean shit. Naruto's abilities weren't affected at all that fight. They weren't stated or shown to have been affected. Just made up shit.

Itachi wins 10/10 no dif.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 11, 2013)

ZE said:


> Basically, what I'm saying here. Saying that Itachi is so much faster than Deva is nonsense as that would mean Itachi is so much faster than KN6, Kakashi etc. The only characters that are much faster than these guys are Minato, Ei, Jyuubi and Naruto.



Deva, KN6, Kakashi, etc. have not and would not bltiz Bee like Edo Itachi did. Minato and Jūbito would. Given that Edos are slowed from their living selves e.g. Deidara, Sasori, Madara and resurrected as they were when they died i.e. not their prime e.g. Hiruzen, Chiyo, Hanzō, Nagato etc. Itachi wasn't a special case like Madara.

Then that means living peak Itachi was indeed comparable to Minato in shunshin speed. And to your credit, that also means that peak Nagato with his Asura abilities would be just as fast, which is scary. 

There's no real reason to believe that's not the case either. Itachi was a freak of nature in terms of talent, capable of creating jutsu and clones faster than the 3-tomoe Sharingan could see, and was indeed shown blitzing multiple 3-tomoe Sharingan users as a child. With a 5/5 in speed and the 3-tomoe, he's certainly comparable.

The reason I'm an Itachi fan is because of his savant like focus on hyper-developing fundamental abilities like weapons, seals, and yes, the D-rank flicker jutsu. It's those fundamental skills, his intellect, and his genjutsu power that makes him special. Not his Mangekyō Sharingan and polarizing, hyped legendary items.​


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Without Ōnoki he'd be boned though. Itachi has that jutsu.



Itachi is not Madara. You can not compare the same technique when Itachi doesn't even come close to Madara in power



> On Shukaku?



Was thinking gaara alone


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## RedChidori (Dec 11, 2013)

Sword of Totsuka GG .


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## Sans (Dec 11, 2013)

> Itachi leaps forwards and uses basic ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu. His Mangekyou is never used once against Kirabi and Naruto.

> Itachi was going ALL OUT.

> It makes sense.


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## ARGUS (Dec 11, 2013)

The only bijuu that the MS was stated to control was kyuubi so I dnt think Itachi can control shukaku 
Furthermore this match is much much closer than ppl claim it out to be 
I'm assuming that gaara and shukaku are working together in this which is why I think genjutsu will not be an effective way for Itachi to win 

Gaara should be able to block Amaterasu like he did against sasuke... But I'm not sure what offence does he have which is powerful enough to overcome susanoo 

The only way I see gaara winning if he sees Itachi in V1 susanoo and then slips him out of susanoo other than that I would say that Itachi wins this high diff


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## Nikushimi (Dec 11, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> That doesn't mean shit. Naruto's abilities weren't affected at all that fight. They weren't stated or shown to have been affected. Just made up shit.
> 
> Itachi wins 10/10 no dif.



It doesn't matter which side you're rooting for; there is no such thing as 9/10 in your universe, is there?


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 11, 2013)

Shukaku fucking solos.


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## ZE (Dec 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Deva, KN6, Kakashi, etc. have not and would not bltiz Bee like Edo Itachi did. Minato and Jūbito would. Given that Edos are slowed from their living selves e.g. Deidara, Sasori, Madara and resurrected as they were when they died i.e. not their prime e.g. Hiruzen, Chiyo, Hanzō, Nagato etc. Itachi wasn't a special case like Madara.
> 
> Then that means living peak Itachi was indeed comparable to Minato in shunshin speed. And to your credit, that also means that peak Nagato with his Asura abilities would be just as fast, which is scary.
> 
> There's no real reason to believe that's not the case either. Itachi was a freak of nature in terms of talent, capable of creating jutsu and clones faster than the 3-tomoe Sharingan could see, and was indeed shown blitzing multiple 3-tomoe Sharingan users as a child. With a 5/5 in speed and the 3-tomoe, he's certainly comparable.​



If Itachi is so much faster than someone like Kakashi, he certainly didn’t show it when they met.

Being much faster than Kakashi equals the capacity of blitzing Kakashi in battle, and that’s something I’m not willing to accept unless Itachi’s speed feats and portrayal changes in the future. Make a base Kakashi vs base Itachi fight and see how many people respond that Itachi blitzes. No one, or practically no one. 

There are two things to consider here as far as speed is concerned:
-Feats
-Portrayal

Base Minato for instance has top-tier feats (crossing half of konoha in under a second) and he also has portrayal by being known as the fastest ever. 
Ei also has both. 

Itachi on the other hand has what is a dubious top-tier feat, which is semi-blitzing Bee. And that was the only instance where he actually blitzed someone, whereas Minato and Ei have done it countless times. 
Still, even if we take it into account, he lacks the hype. Kishi certainly didn’t want us to think he’s capable of ending most of his fights with just his speed alone. That’s reserved for his genjutsu skill. When it comes to that, he’s unrivalled. If Itachi was as fast as he is skilled at performing genjutsu, you could say he could blitz people with V1 shrouds, but he’s not. 




> The reason I'm an Itachi fan is because of his savant like focus on hyper-developing fundamental abilities like weapons, seals, and yes, the D-rank flicker jutsu. It's those fundamental skills, his intellect, and his genjutsu power that makes him special. Not his Mangekyō Sharingan and polarizing, hyped legendary items.


I'm also a sucker for those type of characters. Kakashi was my favorite character during part one due to his ninja-like qualities. Yet I was never fond of Itachi. Could it be that his portrayal wasn't as it was supposed to be? After all, if he was as skilled with fundamental skills as you say, I would be his biggest fan. 


Here's my take on it; there's few moments in this manga that made me doubt my sanity due to how genius-like they were, and Itachi was never involved in those moments. For instance, I don't consider taking Orochimaru down with a sharingan dojutsu as mind-blowing as the following:


_-Naruto defeating the most durable character with an A-rank rasengan._

Let's imagine a scenario where Kakashi and the third Raikage are fighting Itachi. Kakashi uses raikiri on Itachi and Itachi copies it. Then Raikage charges in with his finger jutsu only for Itachi to do what Naruto did but instead of using the rasengan, using the raikiri. That would be comparable to what Naruto did. 



Another moment:
_-Base teen Naruto planting an explosion tag beneath Gaara's tail using nothing but a couple of kage bushins and a kunai._

For Itachi to do something comparable, he would've to use his kunai skills to target the same spot. If he did that, I certainly wouldn't say Itachi's genius failed me to impress me as I'm saying now. Maybe he could do it, but it was never shown. Instead we see him targeting the eyes of three huge distracted summons that were immobile at the time. 



And one more:
_-Sasuke using his sword to not only reach Deidara, but also to test whether or not Deidara's bombs exploded when pierced by raiton_

Sasuke looked way more smart when he did this than when he was using genjutsu on Deidara. See where I'm going with this? Has Itachi ever done something comparable to this? 




Another moment worthy of being mentioned was Kakashi's entire performance against Hidan and Kakuzu... with a kunai and Raikiri. No sharingan genjutsu involved. No MS involved even though he had the most powerful MS ability to date. Just genius.


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## Rocky (Dec 11, 2013)

People who argue that Naruto wasn't at 7 percent Chakra are literally making an argument against the long established fact that Kage Bunshin no Jutsu equally divides Chakra among the original body and created clones. Naruto made twelve clones on panel for everybody to see, so there is _no_ debating it. The amount of Chakra powering him was only a thirteenth of what he could normally use.That's even supported by the fact that Narurto was unable to create another clone without loosing his shroud. It was incredibly weak. 

Yeah, one can make the argument that Kishi didn't have _"Naruto's abilities must be proportionately reduced according to the number of clones he creates"_ in his mind during those fights. However, then it becomes no different than any other power scaling we do here, such as all the recent crap with Edo Tensei. Bottom line is that we don't know what goes through the authors mind. We can guess, but that isn't better than following the rules that he established long ago, such as clones cutting Chakra.


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## Ersa (Dec 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How'd Itachi save Naruto's ass there? And the Viz never said that, Kisame was expressing annoyance at a retreat when the fight was just getting good. Not only that, he apparently didn't notice Itachi _panting in exhaustion there_ and being unable to use his Sharingan.
> 
> And Itachi is a pretty sucky double agent. He's shown that he's fine with killing Konoha Shinobi and hindering them.


He convinced Kisame to run.



> *Kisame*: Why did we have to retreat...? With your power...
> *Itachi*: There's no need to be impatient... None. Besides which I must also... rest my body in one place for the foreseeable future. For not only Tsukuyomi, the nightmare realm... But I was forced to use the Amaterasu as well...


Kisame think they could have beaten Jiraiya.

Itachi didn't kill any Konoha shinobi, he spared Kakashi.



> *Kakashi*: (Thinking) Unh... I see... Three days in that realm and less than a moment passed in this one... Why not kill me? If he wanted to he could...





> 1. Edo Tensei are programmed to respond on their own and Kabuto had no reason to hold Itachi back.
> 2. KCM Naruto wasn't going all out.


> Not using Susanoo/Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi/genjutsu
> Going all out.






> There is no 'logical fallacy'. Obito said he can use Human Path. Now where did Itachi ever say he could control Kurama huh? Not only that, where's the fucking FEATS of it? Where has Itachi ever thought or shown he can do it?


Sasuke said blindness was the consequence for the power to control the Kyuubi. We saw Sasuke suppress a portion of the Kyuubi without MS. Obito has no feats of using Human Path, this is no different. They both have statements saying they can.



> When has Tsukuyomi ever been useful on a high level opponent? Shukaku, as this chapter showed, is equal to Biju 1-7 or 1-8. He isn't an 'ant' especially in the desert.


Kabuto blocked his eyesight so it doesn't matter. No MS genjutsu would have worked there. When has FRS killed a high tier opponent? Answer: Never. Is it powerful? Fuck yes.

Kakashi who had 4 in Genjutsu, Sharingan to further protect him from genjutsu was one-shotted by a non-bloodlusted Itachi. Now let's take Shukaku, a Bijuu with no dojutsu and subject him to something worse. Like what the Kyuubi had to tank except this time Itachi reduces his durability to zero in the Tsukiyomi dimension. Kyuubi has feats suggesting he could survive Tsukiyomi, Shukaku has nothing. He gets his mind fucked and put into a coma.




> Except the manga shows that Sasuke dispelled his flames before the fight with Gaara started. Sasuke had to create new Amaterasu and then attack with it.


No he didn't. Reread the panels.



> He was practically at 7%. He fucking lost KCM after the battle after all. Gaara intercepted A's speed (not freefall giving how A attacks) and Enton: Kagutsuchi.


And you act like the battle was easy, he almost got soul ripped, got blasted by ST, tangoed with Itachi, used 2 FRS, Rasengan and then tried to split his chakra again. All this would have Pein Arc SM Naruto running on zero. He wasn't at full power, I never refuted this. But no one commented on it, Kishimoto didn't give him an excuse for his performance. At best we can suggest a healthy KCM Naruto would have fared much better then he did in terms of ninjutsu he can use. His reflexes, speed were still relatively good. He reacted faster then B to Itachi's initial Shunshin assault.

I don't agree with 7% Naruto because it implies Naruto is only at 7% power which I find ludicrous as he reacted faster then B to Itachi's first Shunshin on top of no one commenting on it. To suggest he went into the fight at less then a tenth of his full power doesn't go well with me. Kishimoto gives excuses for poor performances (Sasuke injured against B, Itachi sick against Sasuke, Kimimaro against Gaara). I think if Kishimoto didn't give a reason we shouldn't make up theories that he is close to 5% power. This is a manga for fifteen year olds and we analyse it more then Kishimoto himself does, most of our theories would be baloney in his eyes.

So basically Naruto in that fight, was a bit slower/less reflective/didn't have access to clones but his stats themselves were generally fine, at least better then B. And he was portrayed as the stronger of the two.



> Fucking prove it other than Itachi wanking then? 'Got it' means 'I know!' He said it so casually he wasn't even bothered by Itachi's speed.


No it doesn't. Got it means he received Itachi's warning, I know means he already knew.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 11, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Itachi is not Madara. You can not compare the same technique when Itachi doesn't even come close to Madara in power



Itachi's Magatama were considerably larger, and clustered. Madara's more powerful with perfect Susano'o, but there's no reason to think his v3 Susano'o stomps Itachi's v4 Susano'o.​


ZE said:


> If Itachi is so much faster than someone like Kakashi, he certainly didn’t show it when they met.



You mean that time Kakashi said he was holding back before he knew of the Mangekyō, or that other time Chiyo said Itachi was clearly only stalling and we learned it was a 30% clone?​


ZE said:


> Being much faster than Kakashi equals the capacity of blitzing Kakashi in battle



That's not true at all IMO. Kakashi can't move as quickly as Minato or Itachi can with a flicker, but he wouldn't be blitzed either. Like how Edo Madara was able to react and block v2 A.​


ZE said:


> Itachi on the other hand has what is a dubious top-tier feat, which is semi-blitzing Bee. And that was the only instance where he actually blitzed someone



Aside from the three 3-tomoe users and Kurenai. But Itachi rarely fights ninja that even Minato would shunshin blitz, as they're Sharingan users with 4.5 reflexes. Plus Itachi holds back.

Also, relative to covering large distances, we saw Itachi stand on a telephone pole on the night of the massacre, have Sasuke look up, and then vanish completely before Sasuke saw anything.​


ZE said:


> Kishi certainly didn’t want us to think he’s capable of ending most of his fights with just his speed alone.



That was the point of Bee getting repeated warnings. Similarly, the author also had Hebi Sasuke need to summon shuriken directly to his hands to keep up with weakened Itachi's weapon speed. 

Kakashi also couldn't keep up with tricky ninjutsu with a 3-tomoe in part one, meaning that without it, Itachi's sheer speed would be enough to deal with someone with 4.5 speed.

Yeah, I need to reiterate that Kakashi didn't know of the Mangekyō when he said Itachi was holding back. Itachi was just casually standing in place being crazy-fast with jutsu.

Moreover, the person Kakashi was comparing that Itachi too was Itachi when he last saw them, or 13 year old ANBU Itachi, who was shown bltizing three adult 3-tomoe users.​


ZE said:


> Maybe he could do it, but it was never shown. Instead we see him targeting the eyes of three huge distracted summons that were immobile at the time.



IMO hitting multiple Rinnegans that Kabuto set up to scout _while_ flickering in and using complex ninjutsu to save Naruto and Bee is a great example of stupid amounts of basic skill. 

There's also his base feats against Bee, where we he sublimely used genjutsu, ninjutsu, and weapon all in mid-air, when he created shuriken masked them in fire, then cast genjutsu, then threw more.

But the one against Hebi Sasuke is best. Keeping in mind that Itachi was weakened, Sasuke needed kuchiyose to keep up with his weapon throwing, and Itachi created and hid a clone during that.

The reason I make base Itachi threads is because I'm so fascinated with those elements of Itachi's skill set. Not Susano'o or Amaterasu. It's the application skill and speed of the basics.​


ZE said:


> Sasuke looked way more smart when he did this than when he was using genjutsu on Deidara. See where I'm going with this? Has Itachi ever done something comparable to this?



Hebi Sasuke was brilliant, I agree. Itachi was even more brilliant in battle though. Against Sasuke, he was seven steps ahead and planned out every single move of their fight, as stated by Obito.​


ZE said:


> Another moment worthy of being mentioned was Kakashi's entire performance against Hidan and Kakuzu... with a kunai and Raikiri. No sharingan genjutsu involved. No MS involved even though he had the most powerful MS ability to date. Just genius.



True. But Itachi's performance against Killer Bee was comparable, no? Or Itachi's performance against Kakashi, Asuma, and Kureani before he wanted to wag his big dick around with Tsukuyomi?​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> He convinced Kisame to run.


After he had _exhausted himself._ Itachi was panting, he couldnt' maintain his Sharingan, and Kisame never noticed. Strange how you ignore that panel.



> Kisame think they could have beaten Jiraiya.


And Itachi refutes him, saying the best they could do was tie.


> Itachi didn't kill any Konoha shinobi, he spared Kakashi.


Itachi ORDERED Kisame to kill Kurenai and Asuma and capture Kakashi. Itachi isn't a sensor, so he couldn't sense the arrival of Gai and the ANBU. He was willing to kill Konoha Shinobi to keep his cover.





> > Not using Susanoo/Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi/genjutsu
> > Going all out.


Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi all have a fricking charge time for Itachi. Edo Tensei are specifically programmed to attack all out with the best methods available. Itachi couldn't hold back if he wanted to, Kyokan.




> Sasuke said blindness was the consequence for the power to control the Kyuubi. We saw Sasuke suppress a portion of the Kyuubi without MS. Obito has no feats of using Human Path, this is no different. They both have statements saying they can.


And Kurama explicitly compared Sasuke to Madara when he did that particular feat. Itachi has no feats, has nothing said that he can even DO that, yet you want him to have it. Obito said explicitly he can use Human Path. Itachi never said he could control Kurama. He has no feats or anything to say he could. 



> Kabuto blocked his eyesight so it doesn't matter. No MS genjutsu would have worked there. When has FRS killed a high tier opponent? Answer: Never. Is it powerful? Fuck yes.


Throughout Part II, Tsukuyomi has been reduced to an almost non-entity. Its useful against non-Kage Level opponents like Kakashi was in Part I or Part I Sasuke. But against Kage level, it has no feats and there isn't any reason why to believe its a jutsu that useful anymore. 


> Kakashi who had 4 in Genjutsu, Sharingan to further protect him from genjutsu was one-shotted by a non-bloodlusted Itachi. Now let's take Shukaku, a Bijuu with no dojutsu and subject him to something worse. Like what the Kyuubi had to tank except this time Itachi reduces his durability to zero in the Tsukiyomi dimension. Kyuubi has feats suggesting he could survive Tsukiyomi, Shukaku has nothing. He gets his mind fucked and put into a coma.


 Subduing a fucking Part I Kakashi doesn't equate to Itachi putting a Biju under in it. I highly doubt a creature as old and powerful as Shukaku would succumb to it. Wanking Itachi's Tsukuyomi which hasn't been useful since Part I doesn't help your argument, it hurts it.




> No he didn't. Reread the panels.


Amaterasu Susano'o fades here when he activates Susano'o again there are no flames. Sasuke would have to create a new Amaterasu to use Enton. Plain and simple.



> And you act like the battle was easy, he almost got soul ripped, got blasted by ST, tangoed with Itachi, used 2 FRS, Rasengan and then tried to split his chakra again. All this would have Pein Arc SM Naruto running on zero. He wasn't at full power, I never refuted this. But no one commented on it, Kishimoto didn't give him an excuse for his performance. At best we can suggest a healthy KCM Naruto would have fared much better then he did in terms of ninjutsu he can use. His reflexes, speed were still relatively good. He reacted faster then B to Itachi's initial Shunshin assault.


His reflexes and speed were that of his base levels during that fight. He used zero of the speed and strength he displayed earlier. He wasn't fighting at all at the level we saw earlier. Naruto created 13 clones and split his chakra 13 ways, he was literally operating on fumes that fight.


> I don't agree with 7% Naruto because it implies Naruto is only at 7% power which I find ludicrous as he reacted faster then B to Itachi's first Shunshin on top of no one commenting on it. To suggest he went into the fight at less then a tenth of his full power doesn't go well with me. Kishimoto gives excuses for poor performances (Sasuke injured against B, Itachi sick against Sasuke, Kimimaro against Gaara). I think if Kishimoto didn't give a reason we shouldn't make up theories that he is close to 5% power. This is a manga for fifteen year olds and we analyse it more then Kishimoto himself does, most of our theories would be baloney in his eyes.


Dude, he created _13 clones_, equally splitting his chakra between them, and said chakra is EATEN BY KURAMA EXPLICITLY. He was less than 10th of full power. 


> So basically Naruto in that fight, was a bit slower/less reflective/didn't have access to clones but his stats themselves were generally fine, at least better then B. And he was portrayed as the stronger of the two.


Naruto was more than a bit slower and less reflexive. He was operating on the same level that he would have in base in terms of strength, speed, and reflexes. 



> No it doesn't. Got it means he received Itachi's warning, I know means he already knew.


From 'Got it' or 'I know' other translations, Killer Bee didn't need Itachi's warning. You're hyping that up for no reason.


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## Sans (Dec 11, 2013)

> Ordered to attack all out.

> Opens with Goukakyu followed by Taijutsu.

> Never actually uses the Mangekyou against Kirabi and Naruto.

> It makes sense.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It doesn't matter which side you're rooting for; there is no such thing as 9/10 in your universe, is there?



Problem?


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## Sans (Dec 11, 2013)

> Itachi's genjutsu is so threatening that Kabuto the perfect Sage specifically prepared counters to fight without making eye contact.

> It's a non-entity.

> It makes sense.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 12, 2013)

As soon as I saw this thread, I knew it was destined for failure.


Let's wait before we assume anyone with a recent power-up>>>>>>>Itachi, alright?


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## Ersa (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> After he had _exhausted himself._ Itachi was panting, he couldnt' maintain his Sharingan, and Kisame never noticed. Strange how you ignore that panel.


Itachi could've blasted him with Amaterasu instead of using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke. Jiraiya lacked sensing or knowledge on it at the time plus with Kisame aiding him Jiraiya could've been dead in seconds. But he chose to weaken himself and use it to run away as an excuse.



> And Itachi refutes him, saying the best they could do was tie.
> 
> Itachi ORDERED Kisame to kill Kurenai and Asuma and capture Kakashi. Itachi isn't a sensor, so he couldn't sense the arrival of Gai and the ANBU. He was willing to kill Konoha Shinobi to keep his cover.


Itachi refuted him before they saw Jiraiya's power. Itachi isn't a sensor but he's a perspective little snot, Kabuto even thought he was a sensor. With his intelligence, predicting someone coming is not actually that crazy.



> Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi all have a fricking charge time for Itachi. Edo Tensei are specifically programmed to attack all out with the best methods available. Itachi couldn't hold back if he wanted to, Kyokan.


Susanoo forms faster then Itachi himself can move, Sasuke made a ribcage before KCM Minato had moved his hand a few inches. Yes he did hold back, taijutsu is not full power. Stop avoiding my argument, why didn't he spam MS and Sharingan genjutsu if he was going all-out. Katon is not all-out.



> And Kurama explicitly compared Sasuke to Madara when he did that particular feat. Itachi has no feats, has nothing said that he can even DO that, yet you want him to have it. Obito said explicitly he can use Human Path. Itachi never said he could control Kurama. He has no feats or anything to say he could.


Um, Itachi is better at genjutsu then Sasuke. Genjutsu is how they control the Bijuu, also Itachi can control people and has an MS. Sasuke didn't. Obito having Human Path due to his claim and Rinnegan is no different from Itachi having Kyuubi suppression because of MS and Sasuke's claim.



> Throughout Part II, Tsukuyomi has been reduced to an almost non-entity. Its useful against non-Kage Level opponents like Kakashi was in Part I or Part I Sasuke. But against Kage level, it has no feats and there isn't any reason why to believe its a jutsu that useful anymore.


This is such a flawed argument. Let's look at Itachi's fights in Part II.

Shoten - Holding back, stalling for time, couldn't use MS
Base Naruto - Wanted to talk, used regular genjutsu. Konoha shinobi.
Sasuke - Person he loved the most, held back and wanted to die.
Nagato - Rinnegan user, Tsukiyomi useless.
Kabuto - No eyes, Tsukiyomi useless.

Tsukiyomi hasn't been used because either a person is immune (no eyes, Rinnegan) or Itachi has held back. Shukaku is not immune nor will Itachi hold back, so Shiki Fuujin is useless too because it hasn't be useful in Part II am I right?



> Subduing a fucking Part I Kakashi doesn't equate to Itachi putting a Biju under in it. I highly doubt a creature as old and powerful as Shukaku would succumb to it. Wanking Itachi's Tsukuyomi which hasn't been useful since Part I doesn't help your argument, it hurts it.


That's not an argument.

Kakashi had genjutsu protection, Shukaku doesn't. I'm not wanking it, I'm using canon to back up my arguments instead of saying Shukaku is old and wise. 



> Amaterasu Susano'o fades here when he activates Susano'o again there are no flames. Sasuke would have to create a new Amaterasu to use Enton. Plain and simple.


There were still flames from the samurai and whatnot. We can agree to disagree, I'm not interested. Gaara's sand is nowhere near V2 Ei speeds needed to block Amaterasu.



> His reflexes and speed were that of his base levels during that fight. He used zero of the speed and strength he displayed earlier. He wasn't fighting at all at the level we saw earlier. Naruto created 13 clones and split his chakra 13 ways, he was literally operating on fumes that fight.


Bullshit, he claimed he was superior to SM Naruto. He reacted faster to Itachi then B did. He was nowhere near base.

Does using 2 FRS, Rasengan, a clone, have enough chakra to resist Soul Rip, getting blasted by ST sound like running on fumes? No.



> Dude, he created _13 clones_, equally splitting his chakra between them, and said chakra is EATEN BY KURAMA EXPLICITLY. He was less than 10th of full power.


The Kyuubi stopped eating his chakra a long time ago, possibly when Naruto told him he was going to change him. The decrease in chakra makes for an overall decrease in performance but he is not at 7% speed or anything. His stats didn't take much of a hit as no one commented on it. Kishimoto gives excuses for poor performance unless there is none.



> Naruto was more than a bit slower and less reflexive. He was operating on the same level that he would have in base in terms of strength, speed, and reflexes.


No he wasn't, Base Naruto is far worse then Base B.



> From 'Got it' or 'I know' other translations, Killer Bee didn't need Itachi's warning. You're hyping that up for no reason.


Kishimoto is doing the hyping


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Itachi could've blasted him with Amaterasu instead of using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke. Jiraiya lacked sensing or knowledge on it at the time plus with Kisame aiding him Jiraiya could've been dead in seconds. But he chose to weaken himself and use it to run away as an excuse.


Amaterasu, which takes a significant charge time and Jiraiya wouldn't think something is up when his eye starts bleeding? Jiraiya also having a sealing jutsu perfect for Amaterasu doesn't mean anything. Itachi himself said Jiraiya was too much for them and you disagree since Itachi is your favorite.



> Itachi refuted him before they saw Jiraiya's power. Itachi isn't a sensor but he's a perspective little snot, Kabuto even thought he was a sensor. With his intelligence, predicting someone coming is not actually that crazy.


Annnnddd nothing changed when they saw Jiraiya's power. Jiraiya even forced Itachi to waste an Amaterasu to escape Gamashibari putting him in a condition where he couldn't fight. Itachi's not omniscient, he had no way of knowing Gai would arrive there. 



> Susanoo forms faster then Itachi himself can move, Sasuke made a ribcage before KCM Minato had moved his hand a few inches. Yes he did hold back, taijutsu is not full power. Stop avoiding my argument, why didn't he spam MS and Sharingan genjutsu if he was going all-out. Katon is not all-out.


Since maybe, just maybe, Itachi's in character way of fighting despite going all out ISN'T spam? We have it established that Edo Tensei's are preprogrammed to battle to the best of their ability and even respond on their own against their will.



> Um, Itachi is better at genjutsu then Sasuke. Genjutsu is how they control the Bijuu, also Itachi can control people and has an MS. Sasuke didn't. Obito having Human Path due to his claim and Rinnegan is no different from Itachi having Kyuubi suppression because of MS and Sasuke's claim.


Sasuke and Itachi's genjutsu, barring Tsukuyomi, was shown as equal Kyokan. And even then, Sasuke's Genjutsu: Sharingan was explicitly shown as Tsukuyomi's equal by Kishimoto himself. And it isn't the same thing! Itachi himself never even alluded that he has the skill, nor power to control Kurama or any Biju. Obito HAS said he could Human Path. He could use Outer Path. He could use Rinnei Tensei which can only be used after all paths had been mastered. The manga never has said or shown Itachi is capable of it, no hype, no feats, nothing. You only claim it to give him a power he has never shown and he himself has never said he possessed.



> This is such a flawed argument. Let's look at Itachi's fights in Part II.
> 
> Shoten - Holding back, stalling for time, couldn't use MS
> Base Naruto - Wanted to talk, used regular genjutsu. Konoha shinobi.
> ...


Lets look at that argument: 

Shoten: You're right he couldn't use MS, but he wasn't holding back. He couldn't afford to. Naruto had yet to prove himself to Itachi and he went for lethal moves and mind rape.
Base Naruto: He was trying to give Naruto the Koto Crow, not fight.
Sasuke: He couldn't afford to hold back to the amount your suggesting. Sasuke legitimately broke Tsukuyomi, Kishimoto alluded to that in Part I.
Nagato:: So you're claiming Tsukuyomi is useless against him?
SM Kabuto: Genjutsu was off the table. 

Shukaku has shown to be highly intelligent and all the Biju have been shown to be extremely powerful



> That's not an argument.
> 
> Kakashi had genjutsu protection, Shukaku doesn't. I'm not wanking it, I'm using canon to back up my arguments instead of saying Shukaku is old and wise.


So, pray tell, when has any Biju fallen for a technique like Tsukuyomi? Part I, Tsukuyomi was overpowered. Part II? Not so much.



> There were still flames from the samurai and whatnot. We can agree to disagree, I'm not interested. Gaara's sand is nowhere near V2 Ei speeds needed to block Amaterasu.


...despite needed to be to block the first shot. The manga made it clear he had to block Amaterasu, he attacked and Sasuke guarded himself with Enton. 



> Bullshit, he claimed he was superior to SM Naruto. He reacted faster to Itachi then B did. He was nowhere near base.


Bee, as Nikushimi said, really doesn't do situational awareness now. Even he isn't using it as a feat. And what'd stop base Naruto or SM Naruto from reacting to him considering the feats against Pain or Sandaime Raikage?


> Does using 2 FRS, Rasengan, a clone, have enough chakra to resist Soul Rip, getting blasted by ST sound like running on fumes? No.


For Naruto, most certainly yes. His chakra reserves are so big that its unfathomable he could run on fumes, but he was explicitly shown to be given that a single clone exhausted him. Hell that fight was like the first fight against Pain in terms of chakra usage from Naruto.



> The Kyuubi stopped eating his chakra a long time ago, possibly when Naruto told him he was going to change him. The decrease in chakra makes for an overall decrease in performance but he is not at 7% speed or anything. His stats didn't take much of a hit as no one commented on it. Kishimoto gives excuses for poor performance unless there is none.


Dude, its been over a year for this: call Kyubi Kurama. Not only that, Kurama didn't stop eating his chakra until well into the War. He is, for Naruto, running on fumes during the battle against Itachi and Nagato. 7%, as Rocky said, is accurate due to all the chakra he lost. 



> No he wasn't, Base Naruto is far worse then Base B.


Base Naruto is one of the most underrated fighters. He's shown high speed, reactions, and taijutsu skill over the course of the series. KCM Naruto didn't do anything during that battle his base self couldn't do due to all the chakra he had wasted.



> Kishimoto is doing the hyping


Only you think its hype for Itachi's speed. Even Nikushimi himself said he doesn't use that feat due to Bee's lack of awareness and his carefree nature. And even then, Bee acted so CASUALLY it was alluded that he knew Itachi was there before he even said anything.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 12, 2013)

The canon English translation is "Got it!!"

There's nothing casual about that.

And yeah, he looked super aware before he was warned, both times.


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## Ersa (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Amaterasu, which takes a significant charge time and Jiraiya wouldn't think something is up when his eye starts bleeding? Jiraiya also having a sealing jutsu perfect for Amaterasu doesn't mean anything. Itachi himself said Jiraiya was too much for them and you disagree since Itachi is your favorite.


Jiraiya had no knowledge nor did he have sensing. If Kisame distracted him then yeah Jiraiya would have died. And no, Itachi said a fight between them would end in a mutual KO.



> *Kisame*: Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not so sure about me...He's in a different league.
> *Itachi*: Yeah... If we faced off, we might end up killing each other.



You can't seal if you're burning to death. Also Jiraiya is one of my favourites, I think he's equal to Sick Itachi. Unlike you I don't adhere to fandoms. I don't think claiming Itachi + Kisame > Jiraiya is wanking.



> Annnnddd nothing changed when they saw Jiraiya's power. Jiraiya even forced Itachi to waste an Amaterasu to escape Gamashibari putting him in a condition where he couldn't fight. Itachi's not omniscient, he had no way of knowing Gai would arrive there.





> *Kisame*: Why did we have to retreat...? With your power...


Kisame was a little disappointed in Jiraiya's power. Itachi is not omniscient, he's one of the smartest in the series next to Shikamaru, Kakashi and Minato and has an uncanny ability to plan stuff out.



> Since maybe, just maybe, Itachi's in character way of fighting despite going all out ISN'T spam? We have it established that Edo Tensei's are preprogrammed to battle to the best of their ability and even respond on their own against their will.


Do you even know what all-out means SSM12? It means to use your most powerful technique. Itachi using Katon means he's not using his full power.



> Sasuke and Itachi's genjutsu, barring Tsukuyomi, was shown as equal Kyokan. And even then, Sasuke's Genjutsu: Sharingan was explicitly shown as Tsukuyomi's equal by Kishimoto himself. And it isn't the same thing! Itachi himself never even alluded that he has the skill, nor power to control Kurama or any Biju. Obito HAS said he could Human Path. He could use Outer Path. He could use Rinnei Tensei which can only be used after all paths had been mastered. The manga never has said or shown Itachi is capable of it, no hype, no feats, nothing. You only claim it to give him a power he has never shown and he himself has never said he possessed.


Show me Sasuke's genjutsu hype? Itachi has a higher DB score, better feats and can control people. Sasuke's ninjutsu is overall better, Itachi's genjutsu is better.

Sasuke alluded that Itachi could do it, one of the MS's damn abilities is control of the Kyuubi. Obito hasn't shown feats for HP but he has it, nor has Itachi but he has it. Itachi has statements and the manga tells us MS can control the Kyuubi.



> Lets look at that argument:
> 
> Shoten: You're right he couldn't use MS, but he wasn't holding back. He couldn't afford to. Naruto had yet to prove himself to Itachi and he went for lethal moves and mind rape.
> Base Naruto: He was trying to give Naruto the Koto Crow, not fight.
> ...


- He was holding back, why hurt his own village?
- A clone essentially beat Post-Fuuton Naruto 
- Itachi held back the whole damn fight, all he needed was Orochimaru gone and then he could plant the seal and go in peace. He loved Sasuke more then anything and he had no time left, why wouldn't he hold back? 
- Uzumaki Genes + Rinnegan can counter Tsukuyomi. Shukaku can't.
- All genjutsu was basically useless that fight so it doesn't matter.



> Shukaku has shown to be highly intelligent and all the Biju have been shown to be extremely powerful
> 
> So, pray tell, when has any Biju fallen for a technique like Tsukuyomi? Part I, Tsukuyomi was overpowered. Part II? Not so much.


Kyuubi fell for standard MS genjutsu. Why should a vastly weaker Bijuu with no genjutsu feats not fall from Tsukuyomi. *Give me evidence.*




> ...despite needed to be to block the first shot. The manga made it clear he had to block Amaterasu, he attacked and Sasuke guarded himself with Enton.


Or Sasuke could've used the samurai flames, Gaara's sand is not faster then Ei. You need that speed to intercept Amaterasu.



> Bee, as Nikushimi said, really doesn't do situational awareness now. Even he isn't using it as a feat. And what'd stop base Naruto or SM Naruto from reacting to him considering the feats against Pain or Sandaime Raikage?


It doesn't change the fact B's reflexes are top-notch. SM Naruto can react, base Naruto...fuck no. 



> For Naruto, most certainly yes. His chakra reserves are so big that its unfathomable he could run on fumes, but he was explicitly shown to be given that a single clone exhausted him. Hell that fight was like the first fight against Pain in terms of chakra usage from Naruto.


You do realize the shit KCM Naruto pulled would have had Pein Arc SM Naruto dead? 2 FRS was his limit, now add on Rasengan, a clone, almost getting soul ripped and ST and it's a fair amount of chakra. Chakra arms too.



> Dude, its been over a year for this: call Kyubi Kurama. *Not only that, Kurama didn't stop eating his chakra until well into the War.* He is, for Naruto, running on fumes during the battle against Itachi and Nagato. 7%, as Rocky said, is accurate due to all the chakra he lost.


Scans for this? 

Rocky actually said it may not be 7% but rather overall Naruto gets weaker the more clones he uses. I didn't deny he's weaker but rather it's not as big as you think as Kishimoto didn't point it out.



> Base Naruto is one of the most underrated fighters. He's shown high speed, reactions, and taijutsu skill over the course of the series. KCM Naruto didn't do anything during that battle his base self couldn't do due to all the chakra he had wasted.


KCM Naruto even weakened stomps the shit out of base Naruto. Even with his lower chakra reserves.


> Only you think its hype for Itachi's speed. Even Nikushimi himself said he doesn't use that feat due to Bee's lack of awareness and his carefree nature. And even then, Bee acted so CASUALLY it was alluded that he knew Itachi was there before he even said anything.


So does Strat, Niku is drunk 

"Got it!" is not casual, the exclamation mark is proof. He reacted yes but the warning helped considerably.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 12, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> "Got it!" is not casual, the exclamation mark is proof. He reacted yes but the warning helped considerably.



There wasn't one, but _two_ exclamation marks.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Jiraiya had no knowledge nor did he have sensing. If Kisame distracted him then yeah Jiraiya would have died. And no, Itachi said a fight between them would end in a mutual KO.


Jiraiya is also smart enough to think 'bleeding eye and a Mangekyo'. Itachi has various warning signs and in the Gamashibari Itachi and Kisame were in his turf. Jiraiya's toad was already keeping Kisame occupied and blocking his attacks and Itachi was forced to use Amaterasu, one of his best techniques to get out.




> You can't seal if you're burning to death. Also Jiraiya is one of my favourites, I think he's equal to Sick Itachi. Unlike you I don't adhere to fandoms. I don't think claiming Itachi + Kisame > Jiraiya is wanking.


Not really. Jiraiya is equal to Itachi regardless. 'Sick' Itachi is an exaggerated Itachi you subscribe to. Itachi's weakness, his stamina, was a natural one. It wouldn't go away just because he's 'healthy' as we saw in Part I. And with Edo Tensei too, Itachi's shown all his techniques have a significant charge time. 




> Kisame was a little disappointed in Jiraiya's power. Itachi is not omniscient, he's one of the smartest in the series next to Shikamaru, Kakashi and Minato and has an uncanny ability to plan stuff out.


Kisame didn't seem to be disappointed. He was just surprised Itachi did that so quickly and waste a Amaterasu there. Shikamaru, Kakashi, nor Minato could have planned Gai arriving at that moment and even Itachi _himself_ expressed surprised. You do realize that Double Agents even in real life often have to kill their own comrades to preserve their cover, right?



> Do you even know what all-out means SSM12? It means to use your most powerful technique. Itachi using Katon means he's not using his full power.


All-out means different things to different fighters. Sasuke going all out is spamming his MS. Itachi going all out is using different techniques.



> Show me Sasuke's genjutsu hype? Itachi has a higher DB score, better feats and can control people. Sasuke's ninjutsu is overall better, Itachi's genjutsu is better.


When Itachi claimed only a Sharingan user of the same blood could break Tsukuyomi, Sasuke was foreshadowed to break it. Itachi holding back to the degree that you're stating would not only blow his plans open, but would more likely kill him before he achieved his objective.

Sasuke and Itachi were shown to be equals in their genjutsu battle with them seeing through each and every one.


> Sasuke alluded that Itachi could do it, one of the MS's damn abilities is control of the Kyuubi. Obito hasn't shown feats for HP but he has it, nor has Itachi but he has it. Itachi has statements and the manga tells us MS can control the Kyuubi.


Sasuke was talking in general. Who made that part of the tablet, possibly the only Mangekyo user at the time Madara. Itachi had several opportunities to use that power but never used it nor did Itachi even say 'so you found my other trump card' or something like that. Itachi can't control Biju, he's lacking something Obito and Madara had. And again, your example does. Not. Work. Itachi never said he had the power, Obito did say he had Human Path and used other Rinnegan abilities besides that. You just want to add another power to Itachi. Do you deny that?



> - He was holding back, why hurt his own village?


Double Agents are forced to kill their own comrades to keep their cover. Itachi couldn't afford to hold back especially with Kisame and Pain breathing down his neck. Naruto, at that point, didn't prove he could be an asset to the village. 


> - A clone essentially beat Post-Fuuton Naruto


It was the real Itachi and that wasn't even a fight.


> - Itachi held back the whole damn fight, all he needed was Orochimaru gone and then he could plant the seal and go in peace. He loved Sasuke more then anything and he had no time left, why wouldn't he hold back?


Itachi couldn't hold back to that degree Kyokan. Hell he'd have to go all out to be sure Sasuke was as strong as he need be at least in the beginning, don't you think? Sasuke legitimately broke Tsukuyomi and countered Amaterasu. Itachi _freely_ admitted Kirin would have killed him. The way you make it sound it was like Itachi didn't even use a quarter of his strength.


> - Uzumaki Genes + Rinnegan can counter Tsukuyomi. Shukaku can't.


Shukaku is also a creature created by the Rikudo Sennin himself.


> - All genjutsu was basically useless that fight so it doesn't matter.


Except for Sound Based and Tactile.



> Kyuubi fell for standard MS genjutsu. Why should a vastly weaker Bijuu with no genjutsu feats not fall from Tsukuyomi. *Give me evidence.*


Kurama fell to an unknown Mangekyo Sharingan Genjutsu that Madara and Obito used. Tsukuyomi works differently than that...how the hell can Itachi even mindrape a Biju in the first place? What sort of illusion would he chose? Why would he chose it? He runs the risk of _pissing it off_ instead of knocking it out after eating away over 30% of his chakra.




> Or Sasuke could've used the samurai flames, Gaara's sand is not faster then Ei. You need that speed to intercept Amaterasu.


Gaara's sand speed has gotten hyped since the start of Part II and has gotten very good feats. Why wouldn't his sand be fast enough to block Amaterasu when Sasuke himself said that the defense was just as good as ever? You're acting like its Part I Gaara.



> It doesn't change the fact B's reflexes are top-notch. SM Naruto can react, base Naruto...fuck no.


Base Naruto reacted to Deva Pain and defended himself from his assault. Same Deva Pain _which scored a hit on Kakashi in three moves_. He also was fast enough to react and save Sakura from Sasuke's stab. Naruto's base reflexes are pretty high.



> You do realize the shit KCM Naruto pulled would have had Pein Arc SM Naruto dead? 2 FRS was his limit, now add on Rasengan, a clone, almost getting soul ripped and ST and it's a fair amount of chakra. Chakra arms too.


Pain Arc SM Naruto used: 2 FRS + 2 Senpo: Odama Rasengans + Senpo: Rasenrendan + Rasengan remember? Plus two clones. Naruto expended as much as SM Naruto did back then, give or take a little bit.



> Scans for this?


It seems it was somewhere before the battle with Obito. 


> Rocky actually said it may not be 7% but rather overall Naruto gets weaker the more clones he uses. I didn't deny he's weaker but rather it's not as big as you think as Kishimoto didn't point it out.


Then why did his jutsu rate go down and he was unable to use the speed and strength he had before and his reflexes went down?



> KCM Naruto even weakened stomps the shit out of base Naruto. Even with his lower chakra reserves.


Greatly weakened. KCM Naruto fought like he would as Base Naruto in that little clash.


> So does Strat, Niku is drunk
> 
> "Got it!" is not casual, the exclamation mark is proof. He reacted yes but the warning helped considerably.


Then why didn't Bee say 'thanks' if the warning was needed? Other translations were 'on it', 'I know', etc.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 12, 2013)

Itachi closes the distance in a flash(dodging/tanking incoming attacks on the way) and hits Gaara with Tsukiyomi, ending the match.


Itachi with low - mid difficulty(if Gaara somehow avoids getting fodderized by Tsukiyomi).


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## Garcher (Dec 12, 2013)

Itachi takes this


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## Rain (Dec 12, 2013)

YnM, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi or Totsuka to the grey matter.

Take yo pick.


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## Ersa (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya is also smart enough to think 'bleeding eye and a Mangekyo'. Itachi has various warning signs and in the Gamashibari Itachi and Kisame were in his turf. Jiraiya's toad was already keeping Kisame occupied and blocking his attacks and Itachi was forced to use Amaterasu, one of his best techniques to get out.


Did Jiraiya even know of MS at this point? I'm talking about if Itachi decided to attack Jiraiya instead of beating the shit out of his brother. They would have won. Even a tired Itachi can pull out Susanoo, he did it on his death-bed so yeah it'd probably cost him his life but if he went back in and chased Jiraiya down with V4 Susanoo, both would've died.



> Not really. Jiraiya is equal to Itachi regardless. 'Sick' Itachi is an exaggerated Itachi you subscribe to. Itachi's weakness, his stamina, was a natural one. It wouldn't go away just because he's 'healthy' as we saw in Part I. And with Edo Tensei too, Itachi's shown all his techniques have a significant charge time.


Edo Itachi is a good deal stronger, he can spam clones to keep Jiraiya on his toes, spam Amaterasu constantly and Susanoo for defense. Jiraiya dies before getting in SM and can't match Edo Itachi's firepower even with SM.



> Kisame didn't seem to be disappointed. He was just surprised Itachi did that so quickly and waste a Amaterasu there. Shikamaru, Kakashi, nor Minato could have planned Gai arriving at that moment and even Itachi _himself_ expressed surprised. You do realize that Double Agents even in real life often have to kill their own comrades to preserve their cover, right?


No he questioned why they ran, implying he thinks they could have won after witnessing Jiraiya's power. And how do you know? These are the super-geniuses of the manga, people like Minato, Itachi and Kakashi are combat pragmatists, they are always a few steps ahead.

Itachi always tried to spare when possible, perhaps he had to kill but we never saw him actually do it.



> All-out means different things to different fighters. Sasuke going all out is spamming his MS. Itachi going all out is using different techniques.


Using one of your weakest techniques is not going all out no matter how you fight. Itachi going all out would involve MS at minimum. Taijutsu and Katon are basic distractions and general combat.



> When Itachi claimed only a Sharingan user of the same blood could break Tsukuyomi, Sasuke was foreshadowed to break it. Itachi holding back to the degree that you're stating would not only blow his plans open, but would more likely kill him before he achieved his objective.


Not really, for one there was no time manipulation nor the traditional black/white scheme where the victims fell into comas.



> Sasuke and Itachi were shown to be equals in their genjutsu battle with them seeing through each and every one.


Actually Itachi wiped the floor with him in their genjutsu-taijutsu bout. Clearly he is superior.



> Sasuke was talking in general. Who made that part of the tablet, possibly the only Mangekyo user at the time Madara. Itachi had several opportunities to use that power but never used it nor did Itachi even say 'so you found my other trump card' or something like that. Itachi can't control Biju, he's lacking something Obito and Madara had. And again, your example does. Not. Work. Itachi never said he had the power, Obito did say he had Human Path and used other Rinnegan abilities besides that. You just want to add another power to Itachi. Do you deny that?


Madara making the tablet is bullshit and you know it. It was left by the RS as Madara and Obito both stated. I am logically suggesting Itachi can control Shukaku, Kurama is a toss-up but there's no doubt in my mind he can control the weakest Bijuu.

No it's the same thing, we have a statement and a power associated with the eyes.

Obito / hasn't used Human Path / HP is a Rinnegan tech / statement saying he can.

Itachi / hasn't controlled Kurama / Kurama control is an MS tech / statement saying he can.



> Double Agents are forced to kill their own comrades to keep their cover. Itachi couldn't afford to hold back especially with Kisame and Pain breathing down his neck. Naruto, at that point, didn't prove he could be an asset to the village.


Itachi let him off easy, he used one of his weakest non-Sharingan genjutsu with 30% chakra.



> It was the real Itachi and that wasn't even a fight.


It was a clone, it disperses in crows after 


> Itachi couldn't hold back to that degree Kyokan. Hell he'd have to go all out to be sure Sasuke was as strong as he need be at least in the beginning, don't you think? Sasuke legitimately broke Tsukuyomi and countered Amaterasu. Itachi _freely_ admitted Kirin would have killed him. The way you make it sound it was like Itachi didn't even use a quarter of his strength.


Tsukuyomi is questionable, Amaterasu did hit his wing and not Sasuke himself. Coincidence I think not. Tobi stated Itachi pulled his punches, despite all the shit he puts Sasuke through he'd never ever risk Sasuke's life. Would you risk your family's life even if you had to try make them hurt you? 

I never said Itachi used a quarter of his power, he used his full arsenal but pulled his punches. You also forget he was dying, blind and sick.



> Shukaku is also a creature created by the Rikudo Sennin himself.


That didn't stop MS mindfuck. Your point? Bijuu =/= RS.


> Except for Sound Based and Tactile.


There's like 2 sound based genjutsu that actually matter. Frog Song and Mugan Ousa.



> Kurama fell to an unknown Mangekyo Sharingan Genjutsu that Madara and Obito used. Tsukuyomi works differently than that...how the hell can Itachi even mindrape a Biju in the first place? What sort of illusion would he chose? Why would he chose it? He runs the risk of _pissing it off_ instead of knocking it out after eating away over 30% of his chakra.


Replicate something like Kushina's seal? Tape the Bijuu to a rock with stakes and blow him up repeatedly. Kishimoto writes in the DB Itachi can control time and space in his dimension so he'd just cause the Bijuu an intolerable amount of pain. On what grounds can Shukaku tank Tsukuyomi and *don't scale him to Kurama cause Kurama is in a different league and would stomp the living hell out of Shukaku. 
*



> Gaara's sand speed has gotten hyped since the start of Part II and has gotten very good feats. Why wouldn't his sand be fast enough to block Amaterasu when Sasuke himself said that the defense was just as good as ever? You're acting like its Part I Gaara.


Uh, no.

I think his sand as improved but a Genin Lee was outpacing his sand back in Part I. I don't think the improvement is great enough that the current second fastest man alive required his max Shunshin to dodge Amaterasu and Gaara's sand can do the same. Do you understand how fast V2 Ei is? You're the one downplaying Amaterasu.



> Base Naruto reacted to Deva Pain and defended himself from his assault. Same Deva Pain _which scored a hit on Kakashi in three moves_. He also was fast enough to react and save Sakura from Sasuke's stab. Naruto's base reflexes are pretty high.


He was backing away, kinda like how Deva was backing away from Sage Naruto.

SM Naruto > Deva > Base Naruto was obvious. And slot Itachi in Kakashi's place and he schools him. He's faster (4.5 v 5, can use Sharingan better and has a superior Shunshin to Pein Arc Kakashi).



> Pain Arc SM Naruto used: 2 FRS + 2 Senpo: Odama Rasengans + Senpo: Rasenrendan + Rasengan remember? Plus two clones. Naruto expended as much as SM Naruto did back then, give or take a little bit.


And SM Naruto was noted to have massive chakra reserves. Hardly...fumes.



> It seems it was somewhere before the battle with Obito.
> 
> Then why did his jutsu rate go down and he was unable to use the speed and strength he had before and his reflexes went down?


Reflexes didn't go down much, they are still better then B (top tier reflexes). Nothing really suggests his reflexes were any worse but we know they were due to less chakra. He still used FRS pretty easily on a boss summon. No offense but can't you understand I agree he was weakened. But Kishimoto said nothing so I don't think it was that big.



> Greatly weakened. KCM Naruto fought like he would as Base Naruto in that little clash.


Greatly weakened is rubbish. Kishimoto gives excuses for poor performances. I listed them before but you ignored it.

Itachi would've punted base Naruto, SM/KCM Naruto are the only ones who can do what they did in the skirmish. Also B would've reacted faster then Base Naruto.

Start of War Arc Base Naruto =/= Current Base Naruto too.


> Then why didn't Bee say 'thanks' if the warning was needed? Other translations were 'on it', 'I know', etc.


Because he needed all the time he could get to counterattack before Itachi stabbed him? On it implies he's working on the warning aka. he's received it.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 12, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> > Itachi leaps forwards and uses basic ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu. His Mangekyou is never used once against Kirabi and Naruto.
> 
> > Itachi was going ALL OUT.
> 
> > It makes sense.





Kyokan said:


> > Not using Susanoo/Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi/genjutsu
> > Going all out.





Komnenos said:


> > Ordered to attack all out.
> 
> > Opens with Goukakyu followed by Taijutsu.
> 
> ...



^These are all the correct responses to the claim that Edo Itachi went all-out.

The only thing Itachi went "all-out" with was Taijutsu, *the same as KCM Naruto did*. They both had bigger guns that they didn't use.



IchLiebe said:


> Problem?



Not at all. 



Komnenos said:


> > Itachi's genjutsu is so threatening that Kabuto the perfect Sage specifically prepared counters to fight without making eye contact.
> 
> > It's a non-entity.
> 
> > It makes sense.



^This is another appropriate response to a bad claim.



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Let's wait before we assume anyone with a recent power-up>>>>>>>Itachi, alright?



It's funny how that has pretty much become the standard, though.

Itachi is _still_ a benchmark by which other shinobi are measured, even to this day. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Amaterasu, which takes a significant charge time and Jiraiya wouldn't think something is up when his eye starts bleeding?



Jiraiya looks at Itachi's eyes and BAM- Genjutsu. Tsukuyomi, if he's really unlucky.



> Annnnddd nothing changed when they saw Jiraiya's power. Jiraiya even forced Itachi to waste an Amaterasu to escape Gamashibari putting him in a condition where he couldn't fight.



Itachi and Kisame were both preoccupied with other targets at the time, so Jiraiya basically got a freebie on them both. Let's not conveniently ignore context.



> Itachi's not omniscient, he had no way of knowing Gai would arrive there.



But he did know from earlier, at least, that Gai and Anbu were tracking him and Kisame. It would be stupid to just think they all gave up looking or suddenly got amnesia.



> Since maybe, just maybe, Itachi's in character way of fighting despite going all out ISN'T spam?



That doesn't make any sense; going all-out implies using the best of one's abilities, which is something that cannot be done if one's best abilities are being neglected.

Itachi was going all-out with Taijutsu, I'll grant you, but claiming that he was going _all-out_ is visibly untrue. Naruto would've been ground-and-pounded by Susano'o otherwise.



> We have it established that Edo Tensei's are preprogrammed to battle to the best of their ability and even respond on their own against their will.



Where? Where is that established? Because I can cite plenty of examples that contradict that claim, most notably Sasori and Deidara.



> Sasuke and Itachi's genjutsu, barring Tsukuyomi, was shown as equal Kyokan.



I wouldn't say that. It's tough to compare them because their strength isn't something that's readily visible; it's necessary to look at those subjugated by it. In that respect, Itachi's Kasegui as a 12-year-old did a better job of subduing Orochimaru than Sasuke's at 16.



> And even then, Sasuke's Genjutsu: Sharingan was explicitly shown as Tsukuyomi's equal by Kishimoto himself.



Well...no.

Just because Sasuke used it to break Itachi out of Mugen Onsa doesn't mean it's equal to Tsukuyomi; all it really suggests, optimistically, is that it's the best Sasuke can do. Danzou made it pretty clear that Sasuke's Genjutsu was nowhere near the level of Tsukuyomi. That may have changed with EMS, but we've yet to have any confirmation if that is indeed the case.



> And it isn't the same thing! Itachi himself never even alluded that he has the skill, nor power to control Kurama or any Biju. Obito HAS said he could Human Path. He could use Outer Path. He could use Rinnei Tensei which can only be used after all paths had been mastered. The manga never has said or shown Itachi is capable of it, no hype, no feats, nothing. You only claim it to give him a power he has never shown and he himself has never said he possessed.



The manga implicitly says that MS grants the power to control the Kyuubi. So the same logic by which you accept that Obito can use Ningendou and has mastered all the other paths also dictates that Itachi should be able to control the Kyuubi.

Which, honestly, is something every other MS user _EXCEPT_ Itachi has done so far.



> So, pray tell, when has any Biju fallen for a technique like Tsukuyomi?



Never because Itachi has never fought a Bijuu.



> Part I, Tsukuyomi was overpowered. Part II? Not so much.



Tsukuyomi never changed between parts I and II; it's still the same Jutsu.



> Only you think its hype for Itachi's speed. Even Nikushimi himself said he doesn't use that feat due to Bee's lack of awareness and his carefree nature. And even then, Bee acted so CASUALLY it was alluded that he knew Itachi was there before he even said anything.



You're really investing too much time and effort into this argument. It's unprovable either way unless you get a really good translator involved, since it's impossible to tell by anything else but B's verbal response whether or not he anticipated Itachi's attack before the warning. In addition, even if B did need the warning, he still managed to react to Itachi, so it's not like he ever lacked the speed. Given that Itachi blitzed right after Nagato summoned his Pokemon and produced a small smokescreen, it's possible Itachi took advantage of the cover (given his initial position beside Nagato, under whom the summons appeared) to get around B. Regardless, I really have to stress that speed wasn't the problem if B was really able to react at the last second based on Itachi's warning. 



Kyokan said:


> Niku is drunk



Only once; never again.


----------



## Ghost (Dec 12, 2013)

King's finest have yet again suppressed the cancer that is SSM12's logic.


----------



## Blaze Release (Dec 12, 2013)

Only Kurama has been controlled via the MS therefore that is the only bijuu that it works on.

Itachi hasn't shown us this genjutsu.

 Seriously? .

To the tackle the first point. I could just say if an ms user can control the second strongest bijuu, that should act as a precent to say they should be able to control weaker bijuu's as well. If Kurama was weaker, then we can make a claim and say well it might not work on stronger bijuus but in this case its the exact opposite. 

Even then. Madara put it clearly here



We have also seen Obito controlling the bijuu's. One of the multiple methods used to control the bijuus was via the sharingan.
*'might be stronger'*
*'might be stronger'*.

What is the difference between the Kokuo and kurama
1
*'might be stronger'*

The mangekyō sharingan can control all bijuu's.

As for Itachi cannot do it, nonsense. Itachi has been portrayed to be the greatest illusionist in the series, but also has the tools in this case the MS to control the bijuu's. To control a bijuu requires no specific MS genjutsu as the only one's we know of are Tsukuyomi and Koto. The MS merely amplifies the 3T sharingans hypnosis genjutsu. Itachi already has feats and hype for controlling and if you go back to the kabuto fight, its this genjutsu he used to gain control of the senjutsu user.

So yh, Itachi should be able to control bijuus, though due to his reserves may not be able to control for a long period of time., Should be long enough to take away gaara ally and use it against him.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 12, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> the more i see SSM12 posts the more i start to believe he's got aspergers or something



This half the things I'm reading is funny


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 12, 2013)

Itachi wins low mid diff people are really overrating gaara and shakuku. Tsyukiyomi GG


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Did Jiraiya even know of MS at this point? I'm talking about if Itachi decided to attack Jiraiya instead of beating the shit out of his brother. They would have won. Even a tired Itachi can pull out Susanoo, he did it on his death-bed so yeah it'd probably cost him his life but if he went back in and chased Jiraiya down with V4 Susanoo, both would've died.


Why wouldn't Jiraiya know about the Mangekyo given its a well known power that even the other villages know about, Kyokan? And V4 Susano'o is a big tiarget for Jiraiya's other techniques such as Yomi Numa. Itachi can maintain it what, for a few minutes? Why can't Jiraiya dodge it, trap Itachi in Yomi Numa, then use Gamarinsho?



> Edo Itachi is a good deal stronger, he can spam clones to keep Jiraiya on his toes, spam Amaterasu constantly and Susanoo for defense. Jiraiya dies before getting in SM and can't match Edo Itachi's firepower even with SM.


Edo Itachi doesn't do that though. He doesn't spam clones, spam Amaterasu, or Susano'o. He isn't Madara. And Edo Itachi's firepower doesn't change, he just doesn't have the backlash there. 



> No he questioned why they ran, implying he thinks they could have won after witnessing Jiraiya's power. And how do you know? These are the super-geniuses of the manga, people like Minato, Itachi and Kakashi are combat pragmatists, they are always a few steps ahead.


Kakashi and Minato have failed in that regard. Itachi had no way of knowing if or when Gai arrived or the ANBU back up. He flat out told Kisame to kill Asuma and Kurenai and expressed genuine surprise when Gai arrived.


> Itachi always tried to spare when possible, perhaps he had to kill but we never saw him actually do it.


Given his post, he would have had to kill to keep his cover so Akatsuki don't get suspicious. What don't you get about that?



> Using one of your weakest techniques is not going all out no matter how you fight. Itachi going all out would involve MS at minimum. Taijutsu and Katon are basic distractions and general combat.


Fanon is Itachi using MS at minimum. All out means different things to different fighter.



> Not really, for one there was no time manipulation nor the traditional black/white scheme where the victims fell into comas.


Dude, Kishimoto foreshadowed it in Part I. Only a Uchiha can break Tsukuyomi, remember? Who was the last remaining living Uchiha there? Sasuke. There is no reason to believe that he didn't do it legitimately knowing how Kishimoto works.



> Actually Itachi wiped the floor with him in their genjutsu-taijutsu bout. Clearly he is superior.


Solely genjutsu bout, the taijutsu part only happened within the genjutsu. And Kishimoto showed that their normal genjutsu were about even and Sasuke legitimately breaking Tsukuyomi which even Itachi couldn't plan for.



> Madara making the tablet is bullshit and you know it. It was left by the RS as Madara and Obito both stated. I am logically suggesting Itachi can control Shukaku, Kurama is a toss-up but there's no doubt in my mind he can control the weakest Bijuu.


How would the RS write about a Dojutsu that didn't even exist in his day? Madara and Izuna were the first two Mangekyo Sharingan users. And there's no such thing as the 'weakest' Biju, Biju 1-7 were shown to be equals in everything even in this chapter. Even the MS alone wasn't controlling the other Biju when Obito had them under control too, he had to use Outer Path.


> No it's the same thing, we have a statement and a power associated with the eyes.
> 
> Obito / hasn't used Human Path / HP is a Rinnegan tech / statement saying he can.
> 
> Itachi / hasn't controlled Kurama / Kurama control is an MS tech / statement saying he can.


Except with that logic doesn't work. Obito has shown other Rinnegan powers. Itachi hasn't even showed that power.



> Itachi let him off easy, he used one of his weakest non-Sharingan genjutsu with 30% chakra.


No, he didn't. And 'weakest non-Sharingan genjutsu'? Itachi would have killed if need be.



> It was a clone, it disperses in crows after


Or Itachi summoned crows for a special shunshin like Gaara's Suna Shunshin?


> Tsukuyomi is questionable, Amaterasu did hit his wing and not Sasuke himself. Coincidence I think not. Tobi stated Itachi pulled his punches, despite all the shit he puts Sasuke through he'd never ever risk Sasuke's life. Would you risk your family's life even if you had to try make them hurt you?


Obito exaggerated Itachi's pulling of punches. There is no nice way of burning someone. There is no nice way of mind raping someone. Itachi only genuinely pulled his punches when SUSANO'O was out which Sasuke had no knowledge of or plan against. 

And Itachi is the sort of person to do that. He fucking mindraped Sasuke at both 8 years old, and 13 years old without any reason believing he'd recover. He shattered Sasuke's arm at 13 years old. 

Itachi was shown to do what he thought was necessary without asking for help. Its his own self described flaw, remember?


> I never said Itachi used a quarter of his power, he used his full arsenal but pulled his punches. You also forget he was dying, blind and sick.


He wasn't fully blind. He wasn't dying until forced to use Susano'o. And his sickness didn't come into play until Susano'o which zapped his life force. Susano'o is the ONLY time when he could afford to pull his punches since Sasuke had no counter.



> That didn't stop MS mindfuck. Your point? Bijuu =/= RS.


And for the other Biju, the MS wasn't enough to control them alone and Outer Path was needed.


> There's like 2 sound based genjutsu that actually matter. Frog Song and Mugan Ousa.


I was just saying sound based genjutsu and tactile genjutsu (Izanami) were the only ones useful in that fight for both sides.



> Replicate something like Kushina's seal? Tape the Bijuu to a rock with stakes and blow him up repeatedly. Kishimoto writes in the DB Itachi can control time and space in his dimension so he'd just cause the Bijuu an intolerable amount of pain. On what grounds can Shukaku tank Tsukuyomi and *don't scale him to Kurama cause Kurama is in a different league and would stomp the living hell out of Shukaku.
> *


Itachi can control time and space for a certain amount of time. And an 'intolerable' amount of pain on a creature with high pain tolerance? And putting Shukaku in a seal like that in the Tsukuyomi realm is more likely to piss him off than knock him out. Seriously, 



> Uh, no.
> 
> I think his sand as improved but a Genin Lee was outpacing his sand back in Part I. I don't think the improvement is great enough that the current second fastest man alive required his max Shunshin to dodge Amaterasu and Gaara's sand can do the same. Do you understand how fast V2 Ei is? You're the one downplaying Amaterasu.


Genin Lee and Genin Gaara are _ants_ compared to current Gaara. Gaara's blocked several high speed attacks since the start of Part II. No, you're downplaying Gaara's sand speed and continually claiming its the same as Part I. He's a Kage now, with greater reserves and reflexes. And you think Kishimoto cares if A was in free fall? He was showing that Gaara can block that attack or defend against A's speed and Amaterasu. 



> He was backing away, kinda like how Deva was backing away from Sage Naruto.


He was purposely backing away and remember, and he was exhausted.


> SM Naruto > Deva > Base Naruto was obvious. And slot Itachi in Kakashi's place and he schools him. He's faster (4.5 v 5, can use Sharingan better and has a superior Shunshin to Pein Arc Kakashi).


Then why physically did Kishimoto put Kakashi and Itachi as equals? Oh right, you act like he holds back each and every time and that anyone reacting to him means Itachi just went easy.



> And SM Naruto was noted to have massive chakra reserves. Hardly...fumes.


For Naruto, it IS fumes. Naruto has one of the highest, if not the highest reserves in the entire manga. 



> Reflexes didn't go down much, they are still better then B (top tier reflexes). Nothing really suggests his reflexes were any worse but we know they were due to less chakra. He still used FRS pretty easily on a boss summon. No offense but can't you understand I agree he was weakened. But Kishimoto said nothing so I don't think it was that big.


But the degree he was weakened was shown to be high without Kishimoto hitting us over the head. He could only create one clone after that fight. During the fight with Obito he could barely do ANYTHING and was being tagged left and right remember? He was greatly weakened and even Gyuki realized that he should have been _dead_ or knocked out long before.



> Greatly weakened is rubbish. Kishimoto gives excuses for poor performances. I listed them before but you ignored it.


Has it occured to you that Kishimoto decided to show, not tell to show why Naruto was greatly weakened? His performance was so subpar, so below even that until taming Kurama you can't honestly believe he was greatly weakened especially after *a single fucking clone* forces him out of KCM.


> Itachi would've punted base Naruto, SM/KCM Naruto are the only ones who can do what they did in the skirmish. Also B would've reacted faster then Base Naruto.


Do you have any proof on that besides 'Itachi is the best' or 'Itachi is a god'? Base Naruto again has shown the feats he can compete physically against Itachi.


> Start of War Arc Base Naruto =/= Current Base Naruto too.


Current Base Naruto could spam Odama Rasengans and even create a Cho Odama Rasengan, a technique that was regulated to Sage Mode before.


> Because he needed all the time he could get to counterattack before Itachi stabbed him? On it implies he's working on the warning aka. he's received it.


Itachi 'stabbed him'? A kunai would fricking break on his skin. Bee being shown to react casually, not having a sweat drop, etc. shows that the warning was unneeded.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 12, 2013)

Considering Gaara and Shukaku were able to land their Sand Bullet Combo on a Madara enhanced w/ Senjutsu, I see no reason to believe Itachi wouldn't end up getting tagged by it here. Only difference is Itachi doesn't have Madara's durability or regen powers, so if he doesn't die from the initial sand bullets than he'll die from being shredded by Gaara using his sand to destroy him internally. If by some miracle he survive that than Gaara will at least stop his movements at which point he'll use his Fuuinjutsu to seal Itachi. Now Itachi should be able to escape w/ Stage 4 Susano'o (assuming that it's at least around Stage 3 EMS Susano'o's strength), however unlike Madara's Susano'o Itachi's will be exposed at the bottom which Gaara will than be able to exploit to rip him out of Susano'o at which point Shukaku ends him w/ Air-Bullets, Bijuu Bomb, or whatever other Sand attack. 

Gaara + Shukaku is pretty OP.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You mean the same Amaterasu which had disappeared? Sasuke had to create new Amaterasu for his Enton to manipulate.


(Stop lying)

Note the ball of enton located on top of Susano'o

Sasuke produced those flames here. Recycled them here.

He later brought back the same broken rib Enton enton affected rib cage. That was enton, as Amaterasu is referred too AS SUCH. It's not an enton per-say, it's an attack that summons enton flames.


----------



## αce (Dec 12, 2013)

Wait....so Itachi _can't_ control the Kyuubi? Yeah, I'm not going to bother wasting time in this thread. This is like saying that Madara can't copy jutsu, even though it's a universal trait of the sharingan, because he has never shown it on panel.


----------



## fior fior (Dec 12, 2013)

> chased Jiraiya down



Itachi could hardly fucking walk.

Gaara crushes him like an ant. This is high-diff at most.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> (Stop lying)
> 
> Note the ball of enton located on top of Susano'o
> 
> ...


I'm not lying. We see that same Susano'o without the Amaterasu orb. And his Susano'o and Amaterasu completely disappears here. I think its kind of obvious Sasuke created more and stronger Amaterasu flames to manipulate with Enton.



αce said:


> Wait....so Itachi _can't_ control the Kyuubi? Yeah, I'm not going to bother wasting time in this thread. This is like saying that Madara can't copy jutsu, even though it's a universal trait of the sharingan, because he has never shown it on panel.


Except there has been only two Mangekyo Sharingan Users who have ACCOMPLISHED the feat. Itach isn't one of them and hasn't been said to be even able to do it, he himself never even said he could do it.


----------



## ZE (Dec 12, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You mean that time Kakashi said he was holding back before he knew of the Mangekyō, or that other time Chiyo said Itachi was clearly only stalling and we learned it was a 30% clone?​



There were enough reasons for Kakashi to think Itachi was holding back. 
Kakashi knew that Itachi had soloed the uchiha clan. And given that Itachi wasn't doing anything that Kakashi wasn't capable of handling, Kakashi's conclusion was a correct one. 

It was obvious Kakashi was referring to the MS. At least that was Kishi's intention. 

-Kakashi fights base Itachi and concludes there's more to Itachi.
-Itachi reveals Tsukuyomi
-Kakashi turned out to be right since Itachi had the MS, an uchiha's true power as he mentioned 



> That's not true at all IMO. Kakashi can't move as quickly as Minato or Itachi can with a flicker, but he wouldn't be blitzed either. Like how Edo Madara was able to react and block v2 A.​


Madara is not Kakashi. Madara's eyes have evolved beyond the EMS. 
Sasuke's EMS were said by Madara to be the reason Sasuke is so fast. So it's only natural that Madara, who not only has the power of the eyes evolved to the max, but also has the power of the body, to be one of the fastest characters in the manga, even if there are people faster than him like Ei. 

Ei can blitz Kakashi.
EI can't blitz Madara.
Madara is way faster than Kakashi.




> Aside from the three 3-tomoe users and Kurenai.​



He failed to hit Kurenai even though Kurenai had to worry about dispelling the genjutsu. No blitz involved there. Quite the contrary. 



> But Itachi rarely fights ninja that even Minato would shunshin blitz, as they're Sharingan users with 4.5 reflexes. Plus Itachi holds back.
> 
> Also, relative to covering large distances, we saw Itachi stand on a telephone pole on the night of the massacre, have Sasuke look up, and then vanish completely before Sasuke saw anything.



Minato has blitzed practically all of the opponents he met. He even blitzed Shodai and Nidaime by arriving first at the battlefield. There's just no comparison.  



> That was the point of Bee getting repeated warnings. Similarly, the author also had Hebi Sasuke need to summon shuriken directly to his hands to keep up with weakened Itachi's weapon speed.
> 
> Kakashi also couldn't keep up with tricky ninjutsu with a 3-tomoe in part one, meaning that without it, Itachi's sheer speed would be enough to deal with someone with 4.5 speed.​



You and I have different ways on how we interpret the manga. 
In the Kakashi vs Itachi skirmish, I never saw Kakashi not being able to keep up with Itachi's ninjutsus and trickery. What I saw was Kakashi keeping up and countering Itachi's bushins with his own bushins while at the same time having to protect Kurenai and having just spent half of his chakra on a kage bushin to help Asuma against Kisame. 

Had we got something like "I can't see him. Where's he at? He disappeared" from Kakashi. That would've been a different story. 



> IMO hitting multiple Rinnegans that Kabuto set up to scout _while_ flickering in and using complex ninjutsu to save Naruto and Bee is a great example of stupid amounts of basic skill.​



It's a good example but it has nothing on the examples I provided. Itachi did that against immobile summons with huge eyes. Hitting them wasn't that hard. Apart from those kunais, all Itachi did was spam susanoo first to save Bee and Naruto and then to seal Nagato. 



> There's also his base feats against Bee, where we he sublimely used genjutsu, ninjutsu, and weapon all in mid-air, when he created shuriken masked them in fire, then cast genjutsu, then threw more.
> 
> But the one against Hebi Sasuke is best. Keeping in mind that Itachi was weakened, Sasuke needed kuchiyose to keep up with his weapon throwing, and Itachi created and hid a clone during that.
> 
> The reason I make base Itachi threads is because I'm so fascinated with those elements of Itachi's skill set. Not Susano'o or Amaterasu. It's the application skill and speed of the basics.


All those feats are great, but not the greatest. They allow Itachi to get an opening, but they aren't what dictates the end of the fight. Not to mention the level of oponents he was fighting against. Base Bee and Hebi Sasuke are far from being top-tiers. 

What Itachi did against base Bee was not more impressive than what Kakashi and Gai did against the V2 jinchuurikis and I don't see you fapping to Gai. 




> Hebi Sasuke was brilliant, I agree. Itachi was even more brilliant in battle though. Against Sasuke, he was seven steps ahead and planned out every single move of their fight, as stated by Obito.​
> True. But Itachi's performance against Killer Bee was comparable, no? Or Itachi's performance against Kakashi, Asuma, and Kureani before he wanted to wag his big dick around with Tsukuyomi?​


If they're comparable, I dunno. 

Itachi against Kakashi and co had Kisame there to help him.
It was Itachi+Kisame vs Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai. 

Obviously if your team is that much stronger than your opponents you can risk and play a little bit. Still Itachi's trickery took him nowhere. 

As for Itachi's performance against Killer Bee. Once again, his team had the upper hand (Nagato+Itachi>Bee+Naruto). And even so, Bee made him retreat and use amateratsu. Another instance where Itachi looked cool but that was pretty much it. 

Now lets look at the SM Naruto vs third Raikage fight:
Naruto had the disadvantage. Not only was he a clone, he had nothing on his arsenal that could take down his opponent. He won with trickery alone. It's different from what Itachi did. 

Kakashi vs Kakuzu and Hidan:
Kakashi had to babysit people much weaker than him. He was being put on the ropes. His trickery allowed him to save Shikamaru and kill Kakuzu at least once. But he still failed, yeah. But it's when you're fighting people stronger than you that you can see the kind of ninja you are. Kakashi even uses trickery against Pain. When Itachi faces people on his level or stronger, his base skills are never enough. He falls back to the MS, always.​


----------



## Veracity (Dec 12, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Considering Gaara and Shukaku were able to land their Sand Bullet Combo on a Madara enhanced w/ Senjutsu, I see no reason to believe Itachi wouldn't end up getting tagged by it here. Only difference is Itachi doesn't have Madara's durability or regen powers, so if he doesn't die from the initial sand bullets than he'll die from being shredded by Gaara using his sand to destroy him internally. If by some miracle he survive that than Gaara will at least stop his movements at which point he'll use his Fuuinjutsu to seal Itachi. Now Itachi should be able to escape w/ Stage 4 Susano'o (assuming that it's at least around Stage 3 EMS Susano'o's strength), however unlike Madara's Susano'o Itachi's will be exposed at the bottom which Gaara will than be able to exploit to rip him out of Susano'o at which point Shukaku ends him w/ Air-Bullets, Bijuu Bomb, or whatever other Sand attack.
> 
> Gaara + Shukaku is pretty OP.



Real talk this right here. If they could land attacks on a Madara who could blitz SM Naruto, then they dick on Itachi.

Even If Itachi somehow optd for instant AMA, then it is easily blocked at 60m.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except there has been only two Mangekyo Sharingan Users who have ACCOMPLISHED the feat.



Notice how the argument has changed:

You USED to say "Only Madara can do it."

Now it's "Only Madara _and Obito_ can do it."

Hint: It's not some unique trait; they can both do it because they have MS. This is exactly what Sasuke said and Itachi affirmed.



> Itach isn't one of them and hasn't been said to be even able to do it, he himself never even said he could do it.



The manga says anyone who awakens the Mangekyou Sharingan can do it.

And that's precisely what we've seen from the only two MS users who ever faced Bijuu on-panel. We've even gotten some strong indication that Sasuke had such potential before awakening MS at all.

So where this "Everyone can do it except for Itachi" nonsense is coming from, I have no idea.

Fun fact: Itachi was the one Akatsuki sent after the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki. I WONDER WHY.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 12, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Considering Gaara and Shukaku were able to land their Sand Bullet Combo on a Madara enhanced w/ Senjutsu, I see no reason to believe Itachi wouldn't end up getting tagged by it here. Only difference is Itachi doesn't have Madara's durability or regen powers, so if he doesn't die from the initial sand bullets than he'll die from being shredded by Gaara using his sand to destroy him internally. If by some miracle he survive that than Gaara will at least stop his movements at which point he'll use his Fuuinjutsu to seal Itachi. Now Itachi should be able to escape w/ Stage 4 Susano'o (assuming that it's at least around Stage 3 EMS Susano'o's strength), however unlike Madara's Susano'o Itachi's will be exposed at the bottom which Gaara will than be able to exploit to rip him out of Susano'o at which point Shukaku ends him w/ Air-Bullets, Bijuu Bomb, or whatever other Sand attack.
> 
> Gaara + Shukaku is pretty OP.



Itachi has better evasion feats than Madara, and he isn't blind. He'll see Gaara form an attack from miles away and react accordingly. 
Besides Madara was in mid air, he couldn't dodge them anyways.

If Itachi is in no position to dodge them, he activates Susano'O and tanks them with ease. 

And Gaara can't rip Itachi out of Susano'o like he did to Madara. His sand isn't lightened by Onoki and Itachi isn't a dickhead like Madara who was preoccupied fighting shitloads of shinobi.

IF that was so easy, then why didn't Gaara keep pulling Madara out of Susano'o through out the rest of the fight ?


Itachi can close 60 meters pretty fast, tank/dodge a few attacks and he is in his effective range to fodderize Gaara with Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi or Totsuka.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 12, 2013)

Itachi isn't getting pincushioned with sand bullets as long as he can just throw up Susano'o at will.


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## Blu-ray (Dec 12, 2013)

Oh come on. Are people really arguing that Itachi cannot control the Bijuu or Shukaku?


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## Bonly (Dec 12, 2013)

It's clear that Itachi can control Kurama, stop your normal Itachi hating crap SSM12. What's next, the Rikudō Sennin can't use Preta path because it's a feat he hasn't shown on panel?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Notice how the argument has changed:
> 
> You USED to say "Only Madara can do it."
> 
> ...


I put several times over Madara and Obito were able to do it. They're the only ones with the feat.




> The manga says anyone who awakens the Mangekyou Sharingan can do it.


Then if that's the case, why didn't we get a flashback of every MS user at least during Madara's time controlling Kurama?


> And that's precisely what we've seen from the only two MS users who ever faced Bijuu on-panel. We've even gotten some strong indication that Sasuke had such potential before awakening MS at all.


Then why hasn't Kakashi been able to control Naruto's tailed forms or force the V2 Jins or control one of the Biju himself with his MS during those instances considering he has the Mangekyo too?


> So where this "Everyone can do it except for Itachi" nonsense is coming from, I have no idea.


I was going for ONLY Madara and Obito have actually _accomplished_ the feat. Remember, Sasuke could only translate part of the tablet since he didn't have the Mangekyo at the time to read more of it.


> Fun fact: Itachi was the one Akatsuki sent after the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki. I WONDER WHY.


Since he's an incredibly powerful ninja who could overpower most of Naruto's bodyguards at the time without any trouble?



Bonly said:


> It's clear that Itachi can control Kurama, stop your normal Itachi hating crap SSM12. What's next, the Rikudō Sennin can't use Preta path because it's a feat he hasn't shown on panel?


So by this logic, can Kakashi since he has the Mangekyo control Kurama then? Or what about another Biju? The manga made it clear that only Madara and Obito had actually accomplished the feat and Itachi showed no aptitude for controlling a Tailed Beast, he couldn't even enter Naruto's mind and force him to stop drawing upon Kurama's chakra.


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## Veracity (Dec 12, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has better evasion feats than Madara, and he isn't blind. He'll see Gaara form an attack from miles away and react accordingly.
> Besides Madara was in mid air, he couldn't dodge them anyways.
> 
> If Itachi is in no position to dodge them, he activates Susano'O and tanks them with ease.
> ...



Madara has better reaction and movement feats then Itachi by a Long shot.

Considering Gaara could react to Alive Madara, he should have no problem reacting to any version of Itachi.

Madara being blinds means what? If he was blind he would give Itachi the same treatment Hashirama received. Even with Sharingan, Itachi could not react to that Madara.


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## Bonly (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> So by this logic, can Kakashi since he has the Mangekyo control Kurama then? Or what about another Biju? The manga made it clear that only Madara and Obito had actually accomplished the feat and Itachi showed no aptitude for controlling a Tailed Beast, he couldn't even enter Naruto's mind and force him to stop drawing upon Kurama's chakra.





Try as much as you like, the Manga made it clear that those who have the MS can control the Bijuu. So do you think the Rikudō Sennin can't use Preta path because it's a feat he hasn't shown on panel?


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## ueharakk (Dec 12, 2013)

Itachi's only real shot at winning is genjutsuing Shukaku and soloing gaara (in which he takes this low-no diff since shukaku + itachi >>>>>> gaara), but he's not taking them both on at the same time.

If he can't do that or gaara can somehow break shukaku out, then he pretty much loses.  Tsukuyomi isn't happening against these two long range fighters, especially considering the requirements that it takes to actually get people with that technique.  Amaterasu is useless against opponents who are either wearing a removable shield of sand, or who's entire body is made up of sand which they can shed.  Itachi can't dodge their high AoE attacks such as sand tsunami or the sand attack they used in the last chapter especially if they combine forces, he's going to have to use susanoo to deal with that. 

 I don't really know how he's going to stop gaara or shukaku from ripping him out of his construct other than putting yaata underneath his susanoo or constantly keeping on the move.  Either way he's going to have to spam at least a V3 in order to stay alive, most likely a V4.  That's going to end up killing him, exhausting his chakra reserves to that he can't use susanoo anymore and reducing his physical abilities + making him cough blood.  

Itachi's his only non-genjutsu possibility of winning is to totsuka shukaku before his stamina is drained and then deal with gaara, but I don't see that happening rather I see Itachi getting slowed down by his MS usage and giant sand manipulations leaving him an open target for shukaku's bijuudama which busts his susanoo and leaves him in the same shape post-kirin, or at the very least sends him flying far away due to the explosion if yaata has no limits.


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## Santoryu (Dec 12, 2013)

Close match, could go either way.

As for Deva wounding Kakashi, it wasn't because he was faster, seeing as how Kakashi easily evaded Deva's kick and quickly formed a doton wall? Kakashi was not expecting a rod to be stuck underneath there, it was a simple case of Deva surprising the copy-ninja. 

And if you want to bring up KCM Naruto/Bee etc 

Kakashi blitzed Rinnegan/Sharingan equipped V2 jins, the same V2 Jins that* were smacking around KCM Naruto*. Kakashi also blitzed a Sharingan-Rinnegan equipped Obito. Main point here is that Kakashi, is very, very fast; Itachi is probably comparable to him in speed.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Try as much as you like, the Manga made it clear that those who have the MS can control the Bijuu. So do you think the Rikudō Sennin can't use Preta path because it's a feat he hasn't shown on panel?


Dude, the manga also had only Madara and Obito accomplish said feat. It isn't the same thing Bonly. If ALL Uchiha or MS users could control Kurama or his chakra, why didn't we SEE it? This is something where SHOW, don't TELL  would have been helpful Bonly.

And why, if Itachi could do so, didn't he force Naruto out of each and every use of Kurama's chakra when they encountered each other?


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## Bonly (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude, the manga also had only Madara and Obito accomplish said feat. It isn't the same thing Bonly.



Does that change the fact that it was said that MS users can control the Bijuu?



> If ALL Uchiha or MS users could control Kurama or his chakra, *why didn't we SEE it? * This is something where SHOW, don't TELL  would have been helpful Bonly.



Why didn't we see it? Oh I don't know maybe it had to do with the fact that we didn't see any other Uchiha fucking go up against a Bijuu. Did you stop to think outside of the box before you asked the bold? What other Uchiha has went against a full fledged Bijuu and needed to take control over it on panel? Dear lord use some common sense. Don't you think there's a reason why the elders of the village thought it was the Uchiha's that was behind the Kurama attack(Day Naruto was born)? Also stop being a coward and answer my question. Do you the Rikudō Sennin can't use Preta path because it's a feat he hasn't shown on panel? 



> And why, if Itachi could do so, didn't he force Naruto out of each and every use of Kurama's chakra when they encountered each other?



When did he need to? Also why didn't Obito do such a thing to Naruto? Why didn't Madara do such a thing to Naruto by using his eyes instead of using Mokuton?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Does that change the fact that it was said that MS users can control the Bijuu?


It does. Since they are the only ones who even accomplished it. Think about it Bonly, if all Uchiha with the MS or MS Users could control the Biju, why do we see that it's only Madara and Obito who ACCOMPLISHED that feat?




> Why didn't we see it? Oh I don't know maybe it had to do with the fact that we didn't see any other Uchiha fucking go up against a Bijuu. Did you stop to think outside of the box before you asked the bold? What other Uchiha has went against a full fledged Bijuu and needed to take control over it on panel? Dear lord use some common sense. Don't you think there's a reason why the elders of the village thought it was the Uchiha's that was behind the Kurama attack(Day Naruto was born)? Also stop being a coward and answer my question. Do you the Rikudō Sennin can't use Preta path because it's a feat he hasn't shown on panel?


The Rikudo Sennin of course can use Preta Path but it isn't the same thing. We have an MS User (Kakashi) go up against the Biju but he's unable to control them. Itachi goes up against Naruto on four separate occasions but doesn't stop him from using Kurama's chakra in three of them. 




> When did he need to? Also why didn't Obito do such a thing to Naruto? Why didn't Madara do such a thing to Naruto by using his eyes instead of using Mokuton?


First encounter, he could have stopped Naruto from using Kurama's chakra (instead of having Kisame slash it and eat it and threaten to cut off Naruto's legs) and knock him out. Second time it could happen is when Naruto in KN0, right from the timeskip charged him with an Odama Rasengan. Third time is during the War when he's forced to fight to the best means.

Itachi, you can best say, has the _potential_ to control a Tailed Beast but never reached it.


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## Bonly (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It does. Since they are the only ones who even accomplished it. Think about it Bonly, if all Uchiha with the MS or MS Users could control the Biju, *why do we see that it's only Madara and Obito who ACCOMPLISHED that feat?*



Did you really ask the bold again? Let me ask you question again. "What other Uchiha has went against a full fledged Bijuu and needed to take control over it on panel?". You have you're answer as to why we haven't seen it again.





> The Rikudo Sennin of course can use Preta Path but *it isn't the same thing.*



We have not seen the RS use Preta path on panel using it now have we? No. Yet you say he can. We have not seen Itachi control a Bijuu on panel have we? No. Yet you say he can't? Both Preta path and control Bijuu are apart of the eyes powers yet you can grant the RS having his but not Itachi? But you're right, it's not the same thing, you like the RS(or at least more then Itachi) so you can use common sense for him.



> We have an MS User (Kakashi) go up against the Biju but he's unable to control them.



Yeah I guess we should ignore the fact that they were already being control right?



> Itachi goes up against Naruto on four separate occasions but doesn't stop him from using Kurama's chakra in three of them.



I guess him not needing to is thinking to much outside the box right?



> First encounter, he could have stopped Naruto from using Kurama's chakra (instead of having Kisame slash it and eat it and threaten to cut off Naruto's legs) and knock him out.



Do you not understand what "Need" means? Itachi didn't "NEED" to do such. Just because he could have done it doesn't mean he "NEEDED" to do it. You do understand that right?



> Second time it could happen is when Naruto in KN0, right from the timeskip charged him with an Odama Rasengan.



And why would he "NEED" to do it at that point in time?



> Third time is during the War when he's forced to fight to the best means.



And? You still haven't explained why he "NEEDED" to do it. Also why did you not tell me why didn't Madara and Obito do such a thing to Naruto by using their eye powers? Is it because you realized that they didn't need to do such a thing but chose to ignore it since they aren't Itachi?



> Itachi, you can best say, has the _potential_ to control a Tailed Beast but never reached it.



No, best we can say is that he can just like the manga has shown(which you ignore).


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 12, 2013)




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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Did you really ask the bold again? Let me ask you question again. "What other Uchiha has went against a full fledged Bijuu and needed to take control over it on panel?". You have you're answer as to why we haven't seen it again.


That panel where we see Sasuke saying 'the price for controlling Kyubi is blindness' could have benefited from more than just simple words. You are familiar with 'show, don't tell' in fiction right Bonly? 



> We have not seen the RS use Preta path on panel using it now have we? No. Yet you say he can. We have not seen Itachi control a Bijuu on panel have we? No. Yet you say he can't? Both Preta path and control Bijuu are apart of the eyes powers yet you can grant the RS having his but not Itachi? But you're right, it's not the same thing, you like the RS(or at least more then Itachi) so you can use common sense for him.


It isn't 'common sense' though. Kakashi has the Mangekyo Sharingan but he is hopeless without Yamato's help to control Naruto's tailed forms, even needing a seal Jiraiya created to force Naruto out of KN2! Itachi has never said that he himself can use his Mangekyo to control Kurama or his chakra.



> Yeah I guess we should ignore the fact that they were already being control right?


If the eyes are linked, why couldn't Kakashi fight for the control? Why would Danzo who gained Shisui's MS, from Obito's own musings, need also Mokuton to control Kurama then? Why couldn't Kakashi control Naruto's tailed forms or suppress them with his MS? 



> I guess him not needing to is thinking to much outside the box right?


Or he lacks what Madara and Obito have that enabled them to fully control Kurama?



> Do you not understand what "Need" means? Itachi didn't "NEED" to do such. Just because he could have done it doesn't mean he "NEEDED" to do it. You do understand that right?


He could do it according to your logic, but he let Kisame nearly bisect Naruto after shaving the chakra off. Why wouldn't you say he needed it?



> And why would he "NEED" to do it at that point in time?


Since he was _about to be defeated_ and the fact that Team Kakashi wasn't stalled for nearly enough time?



> And? You still haven't explained why he "NEEDED" to do it.


Force Naruto to a weaker form while preprogrammed by Kabuto to attack with the the best possible means. Itachi, against his will would have been forced to put Naruto out of KCM or even turn him into his own puppet by controlling Kurama's chakra there, don't you think?




> No, best we can say is that he can just like the manga has shown(which you ignore).


I don't ignore. I keep saying that there's obviously something more than just the Mangekyo Sharingan that is needed to control Biju since only two Uchiha have accomplished the feat.


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## Brooks (Dec 12, 2013)

Five pages of debating about whether Itachi can control Kurama or Bijūs in general with Mangekyō Sharingan?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Brooks said:


> Five pages of debating about whether Itachi can control Kurama or Bijūs in general with Mangekyō Sharingan?


More like five pages trying to determine what exactly is needed to control Kurama or the Biju's in general. 

Think about it everyone, if it just too the Mangekyo Sharingan to control Kurama, why hasn't it been done more in history? Did Madara and Izuna trade control over Kurama while Izuna was still alive? How come Kakashi, who has the Mangekyo Sharingan, was helpless to stop Naruto's tailed forms without Jiriaya's seal or Yamato's Mokuton?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 12, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Madara has better reaction and movement feats then Itachi by a Long shot.


Not really, at least not by a long shot.

Madara's general CIS shadows his overall capabilities, he rushes in and tanks attacks instead of dodging them.



> Considering Gaara could react to Alive Madara, he should have no problem reacting to any version of Itachi.


I didn't say he can't react to Itachi. 
Besides, anyone can react to Madara from this distance : the best possible means
Including mid tiers.




> Madara being blinds means what?


Madara being blind means he can't see shit.



> If he was blind he would give Itachi the same treatment Hashirama received.


Whats that treatment ? 



> Even with Sharingan, Itachi could not react to that Madara.


The Madara Sasuke had no trouble against ? 

Itachi'd casually react to him.


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## Bonly (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That panel where we see Sasuke saying 'the price for controlling Kyubi is blindness' could have benefited from more than just simple words. You are familiar with 'show, don't tell' in fiction right Bonly?



You failed to answer my question yet again.




> It isn't 'common sense' though.



Yes. Yes it is, you just seem to lack it when it comes to Itachi.



> Kakashi has the Mangekyo Sharingan but he is hopeless without Yamato's help to control Naruto's tailed forms, even needing a seal Jiraiya created to force Naruto out of KN2!



And? Did Kakashi know he could use his MS that way? Did he ever try to use his MS that way? How is he suppose to do something when he doesn't know he can do it and he has no way to stumble upon it?



> Itachi has never said that he himself can use his Mangekyo to control Kurama or his chakra.



And? RS never said that he himself can use his Rinnegan to use preta path either. I bet your tune start changing and say it doesn't count right?



> If the eyes are linked, why couldn't Kakashi fight for the control?



Who said he couldn't fight for control? Just because he didn't try doesn't mean he couldn't have tried and this is ignoring that Obito wasn't solely using his MS to control them.



> Why would Danzo who gained Shisui's MS, from Obito's own musings, need also Mokuton to control Kurama then?



It was never said that Danzo "NEEDED" Mokuton to control Kurama.




> Why couldn't Kakashi control Naruto's tailed forms or suppress them with his MS?



Read above. 


[





> Or he lacks what Madara and Obito have that enabled them to fully control Kurama?



Nope, he has what they had which allows them to do such, you're just grasping at straws.




> He could do it according to your logic, but he let Kisame nearly bisect Naruto after shaving the chakra off. *Why wouldn't you say he needed it?*



You answered your own question. If Kisame can also get rid of the chakra then there is no "NEED" for him to do it.



> Since he was _about to be defeated_ and the fact that Team Kakashi *wasn't stalled for nearly enough time?*



Says who? I don't know what manga you're reading but the manga i'm reading shows me that Gaara had his Bijuu full extracted just as team Gai got to the hideout, the same team Gai that got to said hidout before Kakashi's team.



> Force Naruto to a weaker form while preprogrammed by Kabuto to attack with the the best possible means. Itachi, against his will would have been forced to put Naruto out of KCM or even turn him into his own puppet by controlling Kurama's chakra there, don't you think?




Assuming you can read it right, it doesn't say that Edo will react with the best possible means, just simple that they would react. If that was the case then non of the Edo Kage would have just sat there in Gaara's sand, the jutsu would've kown that Gaara jutsu stop their movements and could've gotten them out. But it didn't and they just sat there. 






> I don't ignore. I keep saying that there's obviously something more than just the Mangekyo Sharingan that is needed to control Biju since only two Uchiha have accomplished the feat.



No, you ignore it and hide behind the bold while ignoring the fact that no one else has went up against a Bijuu in the same type of situation that Madara+Obito has.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 12, 2013)

itachi takes this totsuka and yata all he needs


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## Veracity (Dec 12, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not really, at least not by a long shot.
> 
> Madara's general CIS shadows his overall capabilities, he rushes in and tanks attacks instead of dodging them.
> 
> ...



Yes by a long shot. Blitzing SM Naruto is far superior to anything Itachi what's shown.

As long as we agree he can react to Itachi.

He still has SM sensing which allows him to react to high speed attacks. He's still as reflexive as ever and has been outpacing top tiers. 

Doesn't really Matter anyways, cause Itachi would hardly be able to react to that Madara even at far distances.

Being caught by the throat. Except Madara chokes him to death.

Sasuke did not casually react to anything. Madara was dodging all of his swings no problem. Then he purposely got his arm stabbed, preta pathed, then Katon'd Sasuke away, and kept on moping the Kyuubi clocked alliance. I'm pretty sure Sasuke had some trouble there.

Also, don't even compare Itachi to this Sasuke. Completley different Sasuke. One goes from Itachi reactions to reacting to Juubito.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> It's clear that Itachi can control Kurama, stop your normal Itachi hating crap SSM12. What's next, the Rikudō Sennin can't use Preta path because it's a feat he hasn't shown on panel?



The Rikudou Sennin is not Itachi. 

Wait...

Is he? 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I put several times over Madara and Obito were able to do it. They're the only ones with the feat.



Yeah, and Sasuke and Kakashi are the only ones with the feat of copying Jutsu with Sharingan (and Itachi, inside Izanami).

Madara and Obito don't have those feats, so I guess they can't do it.



> Then if that's the case, why didn't we get a flashback of every MS user at least during Madara's time controlling Kurama?



We don't even know of any other MS users in Madara's time.

And Madara was pretty much the Queen Bitch of the Uchiha clan anyway; Kyuubi was HIS plaything.



> Then why hasn't Kakashi been able to control Naruto's tailed forms or force the V2 Jins or control one of the Biju himself with his MS during those instances considering he has the Mangekyo too?



Kakashi is not a true Uchiha, although it's interesting that you use him as an example when his Sharingan belongs to the same guy who does have feats of controlling the Kyuubi.

It's also doubtful that Kakashi knows about this power in the first place without having read the Uchiha Tablet in the Nakano Shrine.



> I was going for ONLY Madara and Obito have actually _accomplished_ the feat. Remember, Sasuke could only translate part of the tablet since he didn't have the Mangekyo at the time to read more of it.



Itachi _does_ have MS and confirmed that what Sasuke read was correct.

Furthermore, you're only assuming that a higher stage of Sharingan is necessary to decipher a deeper truth about this information from the tablet, which has not been indicated thus far.



> Since he's an incredibly powerful ninja who could overpower most of Naruto's bodyguards at the time without any trouble?



So could everyone in Akatsuki not named Hidan or Konan or Zetsu.

Akatsuki had no problem sending its other members off to hunt the other Jinchuuriki/Bijuu. Deidara knocked out and stole the Kazekage right in front of his whole bloody village, and they were all powerless to do anything about it.



> So by this logic, can Kakashi since he has the Mangekyo control Kurama then? Or what about another Biju?



Possibly; the manga seems to suggest that is the case.

Whether Kakashi himself lacks the ability because he is not of Uchiha blood or whether he just doesn't know about that power, or if there's some other reason he can't do it, or even if he CAN do it without a problem...it remains to be tested.



> The manga made it clear that only Madara and Obito had actually accomplished the feat and Itachi showed no aptitude for controlling a Tailed Beast,



Just like Madara and Obito showed no aptitude for copying Jutsu.

Not every user has to demonstrate every single power implicit to a Doujutsu for it to be understood that certain prescribed powers are innate qualities of that Doujutsu. It is stated, as a general rule, that blindness is the price one pays for obtaining the power to control the Kyuubi, in direct response to Itachi claiming that the Mangekyou Sharingan loses its light. No specifics are given; Itachi/Sasuke does not just say "This was Madara's unique skill." Sasuke says blindness is the cost of obtaining the power and Itachi acknowledges that he must've read the Uchiha Tablet.

MS=blindness=power to control the Kyuubi.



> he couldn't even enter Naruto's mind and force him to stop drawing upon Kurama's chakra.



Not even Madara and Obito were able to do that.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> More like five pages trying to determine what exactly is needed to control Kurama or the Biju's in general.
> 
> Think about it everyone, if it just too the Mangekyo Sharingan to control Kurama, why hasn't it been done more in history?



We don't have any perspective on the Uchiha clan's history in detail to be able to say that.

Evidently it's happened enough times for a stone tablet *predating Madara* to display a written record of it, visible only to those who possess the eyes.



> Did Madara and Izuna trade control over Kurama while Izuna was still alive?



Who knows? Did Madara even come in contact with the Kyuubi back then? I was under the impression he got Izuna's eyes, then signed the truce, then left Konoha, THEN encountered and tamed the Kyuubi before coming back.



> How come Kakashi, who has the Mangekyo Sharingan, was helpless to stop Naruto's tailed forms without Jiriaya's seal or Yamato's Mokuton?



1. He didn't have his Mangekyou Sharingan activated.

2. He (apparently) has no knowledge of this ability, or at least no known way of knowing about it.

3. He is not an Uchiha, and this has been discussed as a point of weakness in his potential with the Doujutsu. It may have some bearing on why his ability to control the Kyuubi is limited, if not nonexistent (assuming it is either).


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 12, 2013)

This whole Itachi being able to control kurama and the other bijuu debate again....

We have one page suggesting those that awaken MS have the ability to control the nin tails chakra yet through out the entire series we have learned of only two people to accomplish this feat. You can also add sasuke surpressing the chakra. However we know there were numerous other uchicha that had MS through the war.

Tgis whole story is filled with hyperboles and shit. Itachi has zero feats of this so how can you say for a fact he can


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## Nikushimi (Dec 12, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> This whole Itachi being able to control kurama and the other bijuu debate again....
> 
> We have one page suggesting those that awaken MS have the ability to control the nin tails chakra yet through out the entire series we have learned of only two people to accomplish this feat. You can also add sasuke surpressing the chakra. However we know there were numerous other uchicha that had MS through the war.
> 
> Tgis whole story is filled with hyperboles and shit. Itachi has zero feats of this so how can you say for a fact he can



Because the manga says for a fact that anyone who awakens the Mangekyou Sharingan can.

It's funny how you can point out that Madara can do it, Obito can do it, and even Sasuke can do it, and then in the same post be completely serious when you say "How can you say Itachi can do it?!"

How many more people need to repeat the same feat with a common Doujutsu before it becomes evident that the Doujutsu is responsible, particularly when that's _exactly_ what the manga says in the first place?


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## Veracity (Dec 12, 2013)

I honestly think you just have to have a shit load of chakra to control a Bjuii. 

Itachi has pussy chakra levels, I doubt he could control any tailed beast for an extended period.


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 12, 2013)

Everyone sit the fuck down.

Jak is here...ultimate representative of the Tailed GODS.

"Itachi & casual Mangekyo users can control Kurama/Bijuu."

-Pause.
I am sorry to inform you but there is something in the manga called chakra levels.
The persons who have been capable of controlling Lord Kurama with their eyes have been established to have ridiculous chakra levels and stamina - Madara and Obito w/Hashirama's DNA.

Itachi is not blessed with such attributes unfortunately.
Itachi controlling Kurama/Bijuu in general would look *NO DIFFERENT* from what happens to Madara / Obito when Ino attacks them with the Mind Transfer Jutsu.
Their chakra levels are just THAT far above Itachi's.

Genjutsu is all about injecting the user's chakra into someone's mind. Itachi in NO SHAPE OR FORM will be capable of overwhelming a Bijuu's mind with his average chakra levels.

They just utterly overpower his surge of chakra in their minds with a surge of their own. Its not even funny.

And as my brother SSM12 has been throwing at you...Kakashi was staring down 5 of those fuckers. Kakashi is a wise fucker. Bijuu control was not even a frikin OPTION he debated in his mind to perform.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> This whole Itachi being able to control kurama and the other bijuu debate again....
> 
> We have one page suggesting those that awaken MS have the ability to control the nin tails chakra yet through out the entire series we have learned of only two people to accomplish this feat. You can also add sasuke surpressing the chakra. However we know there were numerous other uchicha that had MS through the war.
> 
> Tgis whole story is filled with hyperboles and shit. Itachi has zero feats of this so how can you say for a fact he can


EXACTLY. Thank you Complete_Ownage. More to the point if any Uchiha who could control the Biju why weren't they added here:

Danzo: In any event, the *only ones* who can truly be said to control Tailed Beasts are Uchiha Madara, Shodaime Hokage Senju Hashirama, Yondaime Mizukage Yagura, and the Yondaime Raikage's brother Killer Bee. Needless to say that list has grown by now but its quite small (Madara, Hashirama, Obito, Yagura, Bee, Naruto, and Minato)

Why didn't Danzo add "Now Uchiha's who have achieved the Mangekyo Sharingan also can do this." Danzo knew of the Mangekyo's powers though it seems he didn't think it was enough since he integrated Hashirama's cells into himself too.

Tobi/Obito: The power of Uchiha and Senju in one man...probably all so he could control the Nine-Tails. (thinks) _He's after Naruto too..._


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## iFlappyNuts (Dec 12, 2013)

If Gaara uses his third eye while he's in his sand shield, does Tsukuyomi affect him?


Bonly said:


> It's clear that Itachi can control Kurama, stop your normal Itachi hating crap SSM12. What's next, the Rikudō Sennin can't use Preta path because it's a feat he hasn't shown on panel?


When did Itachi show in any way an ability to completely control a 100% Kurama like Obito or Madara?


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## ueharakk (Dec 12, 2013)

Not only that, but we also know that Madara and Obito had a summoning contract with Kurama just like Sasuke had a summoning contract with Manda (who he controlled).  Once that contract was removed, guess what? * No more control over Kurama.*

I don't think itachi has a summoning contract with Shukaku nor do I think he's going to gain one mid-battle.

And yes, the only two uchihas who've controlled Kurama in canon also had what itachi doesn't: way more chakra, an EMS or Hashirama's cells.  So it's definitely not the obvious answer that Itachi can control Shukaku in this match.


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## Bonly (Dec 12, 2013)

iFlappyNuts said:


> When did Itachi show in any way an ability to completely control a 100% Kurama like Obito or Madara?



Read the manga or continue to read the rest of the post after the one you quote to get your answer.


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## CrimsonRex (Dec 12, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi closes the distance in a flash(dodging/tanking incoming attacks on the way) and hits Gaara with Tsukiyomi, ending the match.
> 
> 
> Itachi with low - mid difficulty(if Gaara somehow avoids getting fodderized by Tsukiyomi).



This, Garra..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Read the manga or continue to read the rest of the post after the one you quote to get your answer.


Even though the manga itself only said three to four people could do it and only seven people have accomplished said feat? Bonly, you're latching onto a statement that had been contradicted chapters later and Danzo didn't even amend 'The Mangekyo however has the ability to control Tailed Beasts, anyone with it can do so'.


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## Bonly (Dec 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even though the manga itself only said three to four people could do it and only seven people have accomplished said feat? Bonly, you're latching onto a statement that had been contradicted chapters later and Danzo didn't even amend 'The Mangekyo however has the ability to control Tailed Beasts, anyone with it can do so'.



Already answered this via VM. Don't reply to me here if you're going to reply to me in the VM's. I'm not gonna waste my time going back and fourth, either the thread or the VM, pick one or i'll just chose to ignore you outright on this.


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## Coppur (Dec 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It's funny how that has pretty much become the standard, though.
> 
> Itachi is _still_ a benchmark by which other shinobi are measured, even to this day.





Seriously though,  Gaara has had a new showing as of late but doesn't mean he can take down the solo king. New feats does not always equate to better feats, so following in suit, simply because Gaara has the added help of Shukaku doesn't necessarily mean he can evade Totsuka no tsurugi, Amaterasu, or (especially this one) Tsukuyomi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 12, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Yes by a long shot. Blitzing SM Naruto is far superior to anything Itachi what's shown.
> 
> As long as we agree he can react to Itachi.
> 
> ...



Why wouldn't Itachi be able to react to Madara @ far distances ? Even Gaara easily could.

And no, Madara didn't get himself stabbed. There is nothing that indicates anything like it.

And there is also no evidence that Sasuke has gained better reactions since his fight against Kabuto.


ueharakk said:


> Not only that, but we also know that Madara and Obito had a summoning contract with Kurama just like Sasuke had a summoning contract with Manda (who he controlled).  Once that contract was removed, guess what? * No more control over Kurama.*
> 
> I don't think itachi has a summoning contract with Shukaku nor do I think he's going to gain one mid-battle.
> 
> And yes, the only two uchihas who've controlled Kurama in canon also had what itachi doesn't: way more chakra, an EMS or Hashirama's cells.  So it's definitely not the obvious answer that Itachi can control Shukaku in this match.



I think the summoning contract allows them to summon him. 


I don't know why taking the summoning contact away from Tobi dispelled his control over Kyuubi, but we know that he didn't use any kind of contract when he first controlled it.


Also Madara met Kyuubi  @ some point and said "tailed beasts are nothing but slaves to those with blessed eyes" and then uttered the word "obey."

Seriously it is stated and shown that sharingan is what allows them to control Kyuubi. And there is no solid argument against it.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 12, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Not only that, but we also know that Madara and Obito had a summoning contract with Kurama just like Sasuke had a summoning contract with Manda (who he controlled).  Once that contract was removed, guess what? * No more control over Kurama.*
> 
> I don't think itachi has a summoning contract with Shukaku nor do I think he's going to gain one mid-battle.
> 
> And yes, the only two uchihas who've controlled Kurama in canon also had what itachi doesn't: way more chakra, an EMS or Hashirama's cells.  So it's definitely not the obvious answer that Itachi can control Shukaku in this match.



I am confused. Are you somehow attributing the fact that those that have gained control of an animal did so because they had a contract with it?. Needless to say this same genjutsu (hypnosis) has been shown by sasuke when he has used it to retrieve info from fodders to zetsu. This same genjutsu has been used by obito to gain info from konan. This same genjutsu was used by itachi to distract jiraiya via taking control of the girl and a far more impressive feat, controlling a sennin modo user who was still in sm (to undo the seals of edo tensei) until orochimaru came and turned it off.

Chakra should also play a part but for a long period of time, otherwise that has never been what has been stated to be one of its requirements.

EMS, might increase the bind however the MS is canon.

Hashirama's cells should also increase the mind, but again not the requirements.

All 3 points you have stated have never been the rule

To those saying there has been many uchiha's with the ms and so far none have managed this feat. I agree that is a point, but you neglect the fact that mastery of the MS and particularly genjutsu is what will ultimately lead a person to achieve this. Two abilities itachi has. But also the bijuu's have been distributed amongst the villages and were most likely sealed in hosts, therefore there wasn't bijuus running around in the wilderness (like where madara found kurama) at the time the village system was in operation

Also didn't the elders suspect the uchiha for the attack on the village because as its was put in the manga, their eyes is what can control bijuu's in this case kurama, so the manga does hype and lets us know that it can be done by others and not restricted to obito/madara


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## Veracity (Dec 12, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why wouldn't Itachi be able to react to Madara @ far distances ? Even Gaara easily could.
> 
> And no, Madara didn't get himself stabbed. There is nothing that indicates anything like it.
> 
> ...



That's a reaction feat for Gaara not Itachi. 

I am under the impression that Madara was fucking with him. Doesn't matter though, being able to stab Madara is a feat for SASUKE. Stop acting like Sasuke and Itachi are the same character. They aren't even close anymore. Sasuke is FAR stronger at this moment.

Are you serious? The evidence is him reacting to Juubito. That's that. If he can react to Juubito his reactions are atleast an entire tier higher then Itachis.


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## ueharakk (Dec 12, 2013)

@grimmjow 
I'm not saying that the MS isn't what allows them to control the beasts, I'm saying that the summoning contract is what allows them to control the beasts with the MS.  Take away the MS and leave them with the summoning contract and they can't control the beasts, and that is a solid argument against a sharingan user walking up to a TB and just genjutsu gg them without having the contract.  You can't just wave off minato taking away control of the beast from obito as "we don't know".  That feat begs for an explanation and the only explanation is that a summoning contract is required to control it with the MS.

As for how they got the seal, Madara could have got it before he genjutsu'd the kyuubi in that panel which he most likely did considering that was probably right before Hash and Mads fought at VoTe.  Obito was taught everything madara knew during his stead, even how to summon GM, I don't see why he wouldn't have been taught to summon Kurama as well.

@blaze release
Sasuke obviously doesn't use the same genjutsu against the fodders and white zetsu or any of those examples you've listed as their eyes never turn into sharingans like what happens to manda and the tailed beasts so it's nothing like what is used on those.

It's manga canon that EMS Madara couldn't even *control Kurama for long,* and that's with the summoning contract, it's an extreme extrapolation to say MS Itachi with far lesser reserves can even control kurama for any significant time especially if he doesn't even have the contract.

Hey maybe I'm wrong, maybe in the next chapter, madara will just genjutsu GG a bijuu or two, however up until now, the sharingan users have never genjutsu gg even any boss or regular summons that they don't possess a contract with.


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## Rocky (Dec 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> right in front of his whole bloody village




You're British now eh


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Because the manga says for a fact that anyone who awakens the Mangekyou Sharingan can.
> 
> It's funny how you can point out that Madara can do it, Obito can do it, and even Sasuke can do it, and then in the same post be completely serious when you say "How can you say Itachi can do it?!"
> 
> How many more people need to repeat the same feat with a common Doujutsu before it becomes evident that the Doujutsu is responsible, particularly when that's _exactly_ what the manga says in the first place?



Scan of Itachi accomplishing such feats?

The manga says lots of things. Some are true while others aren't. We can only go by actual feats not some shitty fairy tales or he said she said crap. For everyone that's true there's probably 10 that are not

Common doujustu...seriously?  Lol

Jiraiya is superior to juubito, itachi, nagato then. Hey it was said in the manga
Itachi must be invincible but yet would get merked in a fight agaisnt nagato or kabuti
Sarutobi must be the god of shinobi since every fodder says so

You can't say for sure if itachi can or can not when more then half the stuff we learn isn't true. Hell he may very well be able to but he hss shown no such skill thus far


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## Blaze Release (Dec 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> @blaze release
> Sasuke obviously doesn't use the same genjutsu against the fodders and white zetsu or any of those examples you've listed as their eyes never turn into sharingans like what happens to manda and the tailed beasts so it's nothing like what is used on those.



The 3 tomoe grants 3 forms of genjutsu.
The generic reality simulation genjutsu, the paralysis genjutsu, the hypnosis genjutsu. If logic dictates it should be the last one that is used to control/gain info if needed. Also there has been many scans where kurama is being controlled however the sharingan design isn't in its eye for the whole duration of the time. 

Manda even confirmed that it was a hypnosis based genjutsu which controlled him, but also the manga says that its this form of genjutsu that was used on kurama





ueharakk said:


> It's manga canon that EMS Madara couldn't even *control Kurama for long,* and that's with the summoning contract, it's an extreme extrapolation to say MS Itachi with far lesser reserves can even control kurama for any significant time especially if he doesn't even have the contract.



Nope, that is false. We know that what minato said is nonsense and the latest chapters shows us this. Madara was able to use kurama from start to finish agains't hashirama. For almost the whole duration of the fight he managed to to control it, i will not exactly call the fight where he controlled it for that long as short, not likely at all. So what minato said is false, we have already seen how the fight went down and madara controlled it for a significant amount of time, even the moon which depicts time in naruto was shown several times during the fight. But again it has nothing to do with controlling it for that long anyway. Just for the briefest of moments control it to give him a huge advantage over gaara. It then becomes gaara vs itachi + shukaku. That will not last too long



ueharakk said:


> Hey maybe I'm wrong, maybe in the next chapter, madara will just genjutsu GG a bijuu or two, however up until now, the sharingan users have never genjutsu gg even any boss or regular summons that they don't possess a contract with.



There is no maybe here, you are wrong. Madara just went up to kurama and told him to obey, that is canon, it has already been done. Unless you are trying to say madara had a summoning contract prior to meeting kurama and controlling it casually. Its rather obvious that, it was the first time they have met and just controlled it without effort, not needing a contract.

As for your contract argument it is weak. Firstly if we assumed that a contract is needed to control, it can be said that kurama will not be forced into accepting a contract, therefore he would have been subdued from the very start to accept a contract. Secondly if a contract is all you need to control a summoning, then how come jiraiya and orochimaru have trouble controlling gamabunta and manda. Thirdly Sasuke doesn't exactly have a contract with manda. Sasuke has a contract with the generic snakes, but for manda another contract is needed. Absorbing orochimaru gave him this, but he himself had no contract with manda.

Nothing says a contract is needed to control a summoning.
*control Kurama for long,*.

Anyway it appears people like to limit Itachi or a character they are agains't usually brining up fan fiction or false logic, or something that is not stipulated in the manga, but rather going by their own theory. Another one is that the totsuka cannot seal bijuu's, yet there is nothing in the manga saying this. We do however have counters for the usual argument against this. These are:
1. Bijuu have large reserves the totsuka cannot contain that much chakra
2. Bijuu are giants, the totsuka cannot contain such size
3. Bijuus have great durability orochimaru's sword wasn't able to pierce it.

Firstly. Bijuu's have large reserves, however as we have seen their strength differs. Secondly nagato whom we can consider to have bijuu level reserves due to feats and hype was sealed without hesitation by the totsuka. Sure we cannot determine nagato's reserves but at the very least it could rival the weakest of the bijuu's which ironically it is shukaku. This was also a nagato that had absorbed a large chunk of the hachibi's chakra to return bee from v2 form to base form.Totsuka has feats of sealing bijuu level reserves in nagato.

Secondly, Gamanbunta can be considered bijuu size. Against shukaku and kurama it was slightly smaller, but the gap wasn't that great. This same gamabunta faced manda and the size between the two were roughly even. Neither dwarfed the other. So it can be said manda could also rival a bijuu in size. Now the yamato no jutsu which was said to be bigger than manda
 ("-Boasting a gigantic frame, even moreso than that of Manda, who is dreaded as the strongest of pythons. Ferociously baring its fangs, it is ominous in appearance. Transcending an Orochi*, it is more akin to a King Dragon...!!") was sealed by the totsuka again without hesitation, at the very least the hydra rivals bijuu in size if its bigger than manda. The totsuka has feats of sealing bijuu size creatures.

Finally orochimaru sword couldn't stab naruto, therefore the totsuka cannot as well. Ignoring the fact that they are two different swords, we know for a fact that, the bijuu's chakra/powers differ. The chakra shroud protecting naruto was highly concentrated chakra, given to him by the second strongest bijuu. That doesn't mean that because orochimaru's katana failed agains't kurama naruto, it will fail agains't the lesser tailed beasts. The other jin's durability and strength clearly differs from that of kurama. So much that kakashi managed to slice a few of their chakra arms without a Raiden. Yes to pierce and slice are two different things, but if this supposed high durability is consistent amongst all the jin's and their bijuus, regardless of what method is used, kakashi should not have managed to do what he did, but he did. So to say the totsuka cannot pierce a bijuu and use firstly orochimaru's sword and secondly kurama's durability is moot. 

There are more ways for itachi to win this that just control.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> @grimmjow
> I'm not saying that the MS isn't what allows them to control the beasts, I'm saying that the summoning contract is what allows them to control the beasts with the MS.  Take away the MS and leave them with the summoning contract and they can't control the beasts, and that is a solid argument against a sharingan user walking up to a TB and just genjutsu gg them without having the contract.  You can't just wave off minato taking away control of the beast from obito as "we don't know".  That feat begs for an explanation and the only explanation is that a summoning contract is required to control it with the MS.



"I don't know" is the best and the most honest explanation you'll get from anyone @ this point.
Because as far as we know summoning contract allows you to summon an animal and vice versa and that is all.

The contract itself doesn't enforce anything on the summoned animal. We know this because when Oro summoned Manda, he had to convince him to fight for him. We know that Gamakichi showed up instead of Gamabunta because he was "busy".

But whenever the control was mentioned or shown happening, sharingan was highlighted both visually and verbally.

So maybe, but maybe, the contract allowed them to control the Kyuubi for longer periods of time.



> As for how they got the seal, Madara could have got it before he genjutsu'd the kyuubi in that panel which he most likely did considering that was probably right before Hash and Mads fought at VoTe.  Obito was taught everything madara knew during his stead, even how to summon GM, I don't see why he wouldn't have been taught to summon Kurama as well.



I don't disagree with any of this. I just have trouble understanding why a contract would have any effect on the control is all.



Likes boss said:


> That's a reaction feat for Gaara not Itachi.



Gaara is slower than Itachi, so is shukaku or any other bijuu for that matter.



> I am under the impression that Madara was fucking with him. Doesn't matter though, being able to stab Madara is a feat for SASUKE. Stop acting like Sasuke and Itachi are the same character. They aren't even close anymore. Sasuke is FAR stronger at this moment.


I absolutely agree that they are different.
Itachi is a better taijutsu fighter with better reactions as far as we know.




> Are you serious? The evidence is him reacting to Juubito. That's that. If he can react to Juubito his reactions are atleast an entire tier higher then Itachis.



While Itachi has no feats of reacting to juubito, the two of them never met.

But we can make a comparison through Sasuke, and unless you can prove to me that Sasuke had a significant upgrade in his speed since his fight against Kabuto(where he still had the EMS) my argument stands.


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## Baroxio (Dec 13, 2013)

@ Blaze Release

For the third point, you could have just brought up Sasuke cutting up Hachibi with Chidori Eiso, or Minato doing the same with a Kunai, or Gamabunta cutting off Shukaku's arm with his basic sword.

V2 Cloaks might be durable, but the Bijuu themselves certainly are not.

And what am I hearing about Kakashi not "choosing" to use Bijuu control against already controlled Edo Jinchuriki? Bare in mind that the secret to Bijuu control is something writen on the Uchiha tablet that Kakashi has likely never seen before.

Such a bullshit argument. 

The "chakra" argument is similarly stupid, since not only is such a requirement never stated, but it doesn't even invalidate Itachi from using it, at most it just puts an arbitrary and baseless time limit on how long he can use it. Even then we still have Sick Itachi outlasting Partial Sage Mode Sasuke in their bout, so if Sasuke could put it to great use against Deidara, Itachi should easily be able to do the same. 

Of course, none of this is really necessary since Itachi can facetank anything Gaara and Shukaku attempt with Susano, run up to him, and Totsuka him in the face with little difficulty. This assumes that "genjutsu, gg" is disabled, though.

EDIT: The summoning contract idea also fails since Obito gained control of Kushina's Kyuubi before showing a summoning contract with it. Considering Obito is younger than Kushina, he would have to have been born with such a summoning contract for that to work, and that's only possible if all Uchiha are born with summoning contracts, so the point is mute regardless.


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## Veracity (Dec 13, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> "I don't know" is the best and the most honest explanation you'll get from anyone @ this point.
> Because as far as we know summoning contract allows you to summon an animal and vice versa and that is all.
> 
> The contract itself doesn't enforce anything on the summoned animal. We know this because when Oro summoned Manda, he had to convince him to fight for him. We know that Gamakichi showed up instead of Gamabunta because he was "busy".
> ...



Not necessarily. That was a speed feat for Gaara. You think Itachi is faster then Gaara based on what? ; feats. Exactly

No he is not. Why don't you understand that Sasuke received better reactions throughout that fight.

They do not to meet so Itachi can react is a piss poor excuse. especially considering Juubito could blitz Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato and Naruto. Not to mention Sasuke at some moments could react faster then Minato.

Sakura has never seen Ay, but we both know she'd get her ass blitzed. It's the same for Itachi here. 

Sasuke simply has far better reactions now.


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## ueharakk (Dec 13, 2013)

Blaze Release said:


> The 3 tomoe grants 3 forms of genjutsu.
> The generic reality simulation genjutsu, the paralysis genjutsu, the hypnosis genjutsu. If logic dictates it should be the last one that is used to control/gain info if needed. Also there has been many scans where kurama is being controlled however the sharingan design isn't in its eye for the whole duration of the time.
> 
> Manda even confirmed that it was a hypnosis based genjutsu which controlled him, but also the manga says that its this form of genjutsu that was used on kurama


1) When did kurama haven normal eyes while being controlled?
2) It doesn't matter if he's controlled by hypnosis-like genjutsu, Manda has the three tomoe sharingan on his eyes while being controlled, no humans or zetsu show that, thus it's not the same thing.




Blaze Release said:


> Nope, that is false. We know that what minato said is nonsense and the latest chapters shows us this. Madara was able to use kurama from start to finish agains't hashirama. For almost the whole duration of the fight he managed to to control it, i will not exactly call the fight where he controlled it for that long as short, not likely at all. So what minato said is false, we have already seen how the fight went down and madara controlled it for a significant amount of time, even the moon which depicts time in naruto was shown several times during the fight. But again it has nothing to do with controlling it for that long anyway. Just for the briefest of moments control it to give him a huge advantage over gaara. It then becomes gaara vs itachi + shukaku. That will not last too long


What minato said wasn't in refuted by madara's performance.  The total time we've seen Mads controlled kurama was for 2 chapters and during those chapters from the time he fired his TBB at mokuryu till after he busts shinsuusenjuu's backpack.  That's not a long time at all.




Blaze Release said:


> There is no maybe here, you are wrong. Madara just went up to kurama and told him to obey, that is canon, it has already been done. Unless you are trying to say madara had a summoning contract prior to meeting kurama and controlling it casually. Its rather obvious that, it was the first time they have met and just controlled it without effort, not needing a contract.


It's definitely not obvious that it's his first time meeting Kurama.



Blaze Release said:


> As for your contract argument it is weak. Firstly if we assumed that a contract is needed to control, it can be said that kurama will not be forced into accepting a contract, therefore he would have been subdued from the very start to accept a contract. Secondly if a contract is all you need to control a summoning, then how come jiraiya and orochimaru have trouble controlling gamabunta and manda. Thirdly Sasuke doesn't exactly have a contract with manda. Sasuke has a contract with the generic snakes, but for manda another contract is needed. Absorbing orochimaru gave him this, but he himself had no contract with manda.
> 
> Nothing says a contract is needed to control a summoning.
> *control Kurama for long,*.


1) Who said kurama's consent was needed in order to make the contract?  None of jiraiya's toad's were there when naruto made his contract with them.
2) Never did I imply that the contract was ALL one needed to control a summoning, only that it is one of the requirements to control a summoning with the MS.
3) Sasuke obviously summoned manda so he had to have had a contract with him.



Blaze Release said:


> Anyway it appears people like to limit Itachi or a character they are agains't usually brining up fan fiction or false logic, or something that is not stipulated in the manga, but rather going by their own theory. Another one is that the totsuka cannot seal bijuu's, yet there is nothing in the manga saying this. We do however have counters for the usual argument against this. These are:
> 1. Bijuu have large reserves the totsuka cannot contain that much chakra
> 2. Bijuu are giants, the totsuka cannot contain such size
> 3. Bijuus have great durability orochimaru's sword wasn't able to pierce it.
> ...


was this directed at me?


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## ueharakk (Dec 13, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> "I don't know" is the best and the most honest explanation you'll get from anyone @ this point.
> *Because as far as we know summoning contract allows you to summon an animal and vice versa and that is all*.


No, the unbolded doesn't logically follow from the bolded as the bolded isn't mutually exclusive to the point where you are claiming we 'don't know'.  And pretty much every argument one makes that isn't directly stated by the manga are things that we 'don't know', yet we accept as true due to the evidence either requiring that to be true or the evidence making it more plausible than not.  So no, you can't jerrymander this argument out of existence, if you don't have some kind of answer for that, then you'd concede that point.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The contract itself doesn't enforce anything on the summoned animal. We know this because when Oro summoned Manda, he had to convince him to fight for him. We know that Gamakichi showed up instead of Gamabunta because he was "busy".


I don't see how those examples apply to genjutsuing the summon.  Plus, it doesn't really matter what evidence you bring to the table, unless it's evidence that would mean it's impossible for the contract to be a requirement to control the beast, then it doesn't refute the argument since Minato taking away control by taking away the contract makes it impossible for the contract not to have been a requirement for control.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But whenever the control was mentioned or shown happening, sharingan was highlighted both visually and verbally.


which means the sharingan was the thing that was controlling the summon, the contract doesn't control them, it only allows control.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> So maybe, but maybe, the contract allowed them to control the Kyuubi for longer periods of time.


I don't see how that could be true, yet at the same time, minato knows that obito lost the kyuubi immediately after using the contract seal on him.  Or the fact that no one has controlled a bijuu or being with the sharingan while not having a contract with it.


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## Turrin (Dec 13, 2013)

Why not just wait till next chapter and see if madara runs around able to easily control the bijuu


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 13, 2013)

Since when did Madara become Itachi?


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## Turrin (Dec 13, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Since when did Madara become Itachi?


Madara isn't Itachi, but we should still get some insight from his actions here.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 13, 2013)

@Baroxio, you are right. Also didn't sandaime raikage cut all of the hachibi's tails and Ei cut one of its horns aswell?. So yh the bijuus apart from their durability much like their strength differing, it also appears that, they aren't as durable in their full form as when within a host in v2.

Also i didn't catch those claiming kakashi didn't control the bijuu as a counter . But yh, when somebody has a superior bind, in the ms, rinnegan, chakra chains and chakra rods its highly unlikely that somebody can wrestle control of the bijuu from them. Also this special chakra that is created in an uchiha's brain to unlock both the sharingan and the ms, might also have something to do with the control, something that kakashi doesn't posses regardless of him having the ms.



ueharakk said:


> 1) When did kurama haven normal eyes while being controlled?
> 2) It doesn't matter if he's controlled by hypnosis-like genjutsu, Manda has the three tomoe sharingan on his eyes while being controlled, no humans or zetsu show that, thus it's not the same thing.



To show but a few
*control Kurama for long,*
*control Kurama for long,*
*control Kurama for long,*

Inconsistent perhaps.
Out of the 3 genjutsu's it must be this one that is used on bijuu's but in this case through the application of the ms. The basic sharingan one is what sasuke used on manda though



ueharakk said:


> What minato said wasn't in refuted by madara's performance.  The total time we've seen Mads controlled kurama was for 2 chapters and during those chapters from the time he fired his TBB at mokuryu till after he busts shinsuusenjuu's backpack.  That's not a long time at all.



Er not exactly. Hashirama merely brought us to the middle of the fight. We do not know how either got there. Whether madara rode on kurama's head, or after arriving summoned kurama. We don't know how hashirama arrived there. Hashirama's depiction was summarised, however we have been given hints that the fight wasn't exactly short. Both are stamina freaks especially hashirama, for both to be panting and out of chakra for madara to lose the sharingan and hashirama sm like they were, it must mean that the fight was a long gruesome one with it being almost evenly matched. Madara has already fought hashirama and the senju for 24 hours before and for their final fight which has all the elements of a grand finale to be anything less makes no sense. That and also the significance of the moon, all points towards a long heated exchange and no less



ueharakk said:


> It's definitely not obvious that it's his first time meeting Kurama.



Madara has fought the senju for sometime and has never used kurama, until the final fight. That is enough to say he had never approached kurama before the final battle. Secondly the way madara approaches makes  it almost certain that, it was the first initial meeting between the two




ueharakk said:


> 1) Who said kurama's consent was needed in order to make the contract?  None of jiraiya's toad's were there when naruto made his contract with them.
> 2) Never did I imply that the contract was ALL one needed to control a summoning, only that it is one of the requirements to control a summoning with the MS.
> 3) Sasuke obviously summoned manda so he had to have had a contract with him.




Sasuke only gained manda's contract because he absorbed orochimaru and not because he himself has a contract with manda. There is the generic snake contract that, sasuke, anko, kabuto and orochimaru himself has and there is another which appears to be a tattoo which is only for manda. But more importantly, absolutely nothing backs needing a contract to control a summoning via the ms. That has never been the requirements so i am not sure where you are getting this from. I can upload the requirements needed to control a bijuu and i am certain a contract isn't one of them, unless you have scans that i don't, if so please upload them.

Anyway, hashirama was said to have a few under his control. Perhaps he also has a contract with the bijuu's. 

Danzo was said to be stocking up on hashi's dna and sharingans because he wanted to control kurama, perhaps he also has a contract.

The uchiha were suspected for the attack on the village. Perhaps they all have a contract.

Obito was controlling the bijuu's, perhaps he has a contract with them.

Again this contract issue is something you have brought forward with no backing from any source.

Again




ueharakk said:


> was this directed at me?


Nope. I hardly participate in the dome, i just read some stuff and it appears some of the stipulations slapped on characters abilities even though the manga says something else goes beyond belief


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## ueharakk (Dec 13, 2013)

Blaze Release said:


> To show but a few
> *control Kurama for long,*
> *control Kurama for long,*
> *control Kurama for long,*
> ...


Those aren't inconsistencies, if you look back when obito first casts the genjutsu,* he makes it so that the sharingan tomoes disappear,* most likely so that the villagers don't suspect it's being controlled.




Blaze Release said:


> Er not exactly. Hashirama merely brought us to the middle of the fight. We do not know how either got there. Whether madara rode on kurama's head, or after arriving summoned kurama. We don't know how hashirama arrived there. Hashirama's depiction was summarised, however we have been given hints that the fight wasn't exactly short. Both are stamina freaks especially hashirama, for both to be panting and out of chakra for madara to lose the sharingan and hashirama sm like they were, it must mean that the fight was a long gruesome one with it being almost evenly matched. Madara has already fought hashirama and the senju for 24 hours before and for their final fight which has all the elements of a grand finale to be anything less makes no sense. That and also the significance of the moon, all points towards a long heated exchange and no less


Considering Kurama seems completely undamaged and Madara immediately brings up PS to defend against the bijuudama getting shoved by mokujin, the fight couldn't have been going on for long before then.

The long heated exchange happened after kurama was sealed, the focal point of the fight was when both were at maximum strength.




Blaze Release said:


> *Madara has fought the senju for sometime and has never used kurama, until the final fight.* That is enough to say he had never approached kurama before the final battle. Secondly the way madara approaches makes  it almost certain that, it was the first initial meeting between the two


What do you base the bolded on?  Even if that was the first time he genjutsu'd kurama, it doesn't mean that he didn't have to get that contract in order to do it.  Finally, imagine if what you said is true: that he didn't have the contract and genjutsu'd kurama.  That means he had to have found kurama's location, and then from wherever that location was, moved to konoha and started the fight with hashirama since he opts to genjutsu kurama right there and then.  It's too much of a coincidence for Kurama to have been roaming around konoha at the exact time Madara decided to use it to crush the village.





Blaze Release said:


> Sasuke only gained manda's contract because he absorbed orochimaru and not because he himself has a contract with manda. There is the generic snake contract that, sasuke, anko, kabuto and orochimaru himself has and there is another which appears to be a tattoo which is only for manda. *But more importantly, absolutely nothing backs needing a contract to control a summoning via the ms. *That has never been the requirements so i am not sure where you are getting this from. I can upload the requirements needed to control a bijuu and i am certain a contract isn't one of them, unless you have scans that i don't, if so please upload them.


The bolded is flat out false as I've given 2 reasons, one which seems necessary, for the person to have a contract in order to control it with MS.  If you disagree with those reasons, you have to go and address them.

The generic snake contract applies to all of the snakes just like the generic toad contract applies to all of the toads.  Orochimaru had the tatoo on his arms because he couldn't make the seals to summon them the normal way.  Plus, if sasuke gained the summoning contract with manda after absorbing oro, then i don't see any inconsistencies with the reasoning that you have to have the sumoning contract in order to control them.



Blaze Release said:


> Anyway, hashirama was said to have a few under his control. Perhaps he also has a contract with the bijuu's.


We've yet to see how hashirama even controls bijuu, so maybe maybe not.  Plus, it doesn't apply since it's not an MS.



Blaze Release said:


> Danzo was said to be stocking up on hashi's dna and sharingans because he wanted to control kurama, perhaps he also has a contract.


Sure maybe he had one or maybe he was planning on eventually getting one.



Blaze Release said:


> The uchiha were suspected for the attack on the village. Perhaps they all have a contract.
> 
> Obito was controlling the bijuu's, perhaps he has a contract with them.
> 
> ...


I don't see any contradiction with needing the contract seal in order to tame the beasts with those occular powers.



Blaze Release said:


> Nope. I hardly participate in the dome, i just read some stuff and it appears some of the stipulations slapped on characters abilities even though the manga says something else goes beyond belief


That would only be an issue if the manga said that the MS was the only thing one needed to control the bijuu with, or if minato didn't straight up cancel the MS's control by sealing the contract between Obito and Kurama.  So there is no contradiction.  In addition to that, the manga has made many statements about abilities of jutsu that are untrue and ironically, in that very fight where they talk about the MS controlling kurama, we get a bunch of them.


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## αce (Dec 13, 2013)

Umm I'm not sure what this contract seal stuff is about. Madara genjutsu'd the Kyuubi after verbally abusing him and then summoned him some time afterwards. I highly doubt the Kyuubi gave him a contract seal by choice - it was forced. You don't need a contract seal to simply genjutsu the Kyuubi otherwise Madara wouldn't have been able to control it at all. The Mangekyou's power of bijuu control is the Uchiha equivalent of Hashirama's ability to control bijuu's.


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## Turrin (Dec 13, 2013)

Another thing, people keep arguing about whether you need a contract or if the Mangekyo by itself can control the Kyuubi (or other Tailed Beast), but rather the questions shouldn't be can Mangekyo do something, but can Itachi do it.  Just because Mangekyo has the ability to tame the fox doesn't mean Itachi can utilize the Mangekyo to tame the fox. We've never seen someone w/ just the Mangekyo exercise the ability to control Bijuu, so we don't know the prerequisites and conditions necessary to awaken or utilize this ability. We also don't know the cost of utilizing the ability on the Uchiha. 

After-all it's not like just because an Uchiha has the Mangekyo they are able to utilize all the Mangekyo Jutsu or abilities. They need to awaken each ability individually and than train w/ that ability in battle to fully master it.  Itachi has never demonstrated he awakened the ability to control Bijuu & we are never told he has trained this ability. These two things are more important to answering the question of whether Itachi can control a Bijuu than whether Mangekyo itself is capable of it.

Furthermore not every Mangekyo user can use every Mangekyo Jutsu or ability and it is indicate that different types of Mangekyo possess different abilities. It may very well could require gaining a certain Mangekyo to awaken this ability. For example Madara indicates Sasuke's Mangekyo has special perceptive abilities due to possessing the Choku Tomoe. It may very well also require the Choku Tomoe to control Tailed Beasts. After all Madara only demonstrated the ability to control Kurama after gaining the Choku Tomoe by taking Izuna's eyes and it was Sasuke's chakra that was compared to Madara's, not Itachi's, who just so happens to also possess a Choku Tomoe. Or maybe it has nothing to do w/ Tome Formation, but it is something unique to certain Mangekyo's.

These are all things we do not know and therefore while we may know that Mangekyo can control the Fox, that tells us nothing in regards to whether Itachi can control the Fox (or other tailed beast). Granting Itachi this ability simply because Mangekyo can exercise this ability, is just as flawed of a premise as granting every Mangekyo user Stage 4 Susano'o w/ Enton Kagatsuchi Sword/Arrow, simply because Mangekyo can do it.

Edit: Like I said before next chapter may clear some of this up


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 13, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi can't control bijū with genjutsu. Ignore canon
> 
> Gaara blocked Amaterasu, not an Enton. Ignore canon.
> 
> The Totsuka can't pierce Shukaku. Only teapots work on him.​



MS controlling *the Kyuubi* ≠ MS controlling *all* Bijuu. Why say "ignore canon" when you're asserting that controlling Kurama means controlling all the other Bijuu?

Blocking a Kagutsuchi does suggest he can block Amaterasu. Sasuke would've used Amaterasu rather than Kagutsuchi if it was really a good jutsu to use on Gaara. 



αce said:


> The Mangekyou's power of bijuu control is the Uchiha equivalent of Hashirama's ability to control bijuu's.



Where are you getting this? If anything, the manga suggests:

_"The Mangekyou's power of *[Kyuubi]* control is the Uchiha equivalent of Hashirama's ability to control bijuu's."_​

-----

Now it makes me wonder:


*Spoiler*: _Latest Chapter Spoilers_ 



With Hashirama's Bijuu control... wasn't Madara able to control the Bijuu? Would've stopped him from becoming their pinball.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 17, 2013)

Genjutsu is a non factor considering Gaara can fly and he knows about Genjutsu. This is the Shukaku and Gaara I am pretty sure they win, with their Massive Amounts of Sand


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## genii96 (Dec 20, 2013)

If itachi is facing both gaara and shukaku,he is fucked. If only gaara,he looses high diff


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 8, 2014)

Gaara can solo this, his sand defence is essentially the perfect counter to MS Jutsu, and Shukaku is also. Both of them cannot really get killed by Amaterasu for they can both shed the sand that is getting burned, this was demonstrated in his short fight against Sasuke. Gaara also does not directly have to look at Itachi's eyes for he can use his third eye whilst being inside his sand ball that he used against Deidara. If Shukaku gets Genjutsu'd Gaara can break him out of it. Gaara _should _ also be able to take Itachi out of Susanoo for he has not shown materialization of the legs for Susanoo to eliminate that possibly the way Madara did. Even if Gaara somehow gets hit by Ametarasu, shedding his sand armour ( that he wears constantly) should always be an option. Gaara can also make Sand clones, which no Sharingan user other than Madara qnd maybe now potentially Sasuke should be able to tell apart. Itachi will have to stay within Susanoo at all times, and eventually he would get too tired to sustain it. If Gaara can indeed take Itachi out of Susanoo without Ōnoki's help then this match would end rather fast,


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 8, 2014)

I can agree that Gaara w/ Shukaku has a chance against Itachi without Susano'o, considering he seems to counter illusions and Amaterasu rather well.

With Susano'o, Itachi fights on another level, so Gaara would be lucky to last 30 seconds against V4 and its legendary weapons. 


If Itachi is able to control Shukaku with his MS (not hard to believe), this match-up can easily turn into a stomp.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 8, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> I can agree that Gaara w/ Shukaku has a chance against Itachi without Susano'o, considering he seems to counter illusions and Amaterasu rather well.
> 
> With Susano'o, Itachi fights on another level, so Gaara would be lucky to last 30 seconds against V4 and its legendary weapons.
> 
> ...



Gaara without Shukaku stomps Itachi without Susanoo, Gaara without Shukaku can _probably _ win against Itachi with Susanoo, with Shukaku its a _confirmed_ win. Itachi *can* put Shukaku under Genjutsu but Gaara can just as easily break him out, seeing as they are both  long range fighters they would likely stay next to each other (like they did against Madara) so its not like he will need to gain much distance to snap him out.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 8, 2014)

The Totsuka no Tsurugi can eliminate Shukaku rather conveniently.

Then Gaara's on his own.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 8, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The Totsuka no Tsurugi can eliminate Shukaku rather conveniently.
> 
> Then Gaara's on his own.



I would not be too sure, Shukaku can turn his parts into sand , in the same way, he can avoid getting sealed by Totsuka (It seals souls, not sand).


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## Nikushimi (Jan 8, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> I would not be too sure, Shukaku can turn his parts into sand , in the same way, he can avoid getting sealed by Totsuka (It seals souls, not sand).



I don't know where "Totsuka seals souls" came from; we've seen it seal the physical bodies of its targets both times it was used in the manga. It even sealed Nagato's Edo Tensei dust body and the sacrificial corpse inside.

Even if Shukaku manages to avoid being sealed completely, he's still bound to lose a very large portion of his body. I'm not sure how effective he'd be after that, and there's nothing stopping Itachi from trying to seal him a second time.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 8, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't know where "Totsuka seals souls" came from; we've seen it seal the physical bodies of its targets both times it was used in the manga. It even sealed Nagato's Edo Tensei dust body and the sacrificial corpse inside.
> 
> Even if Shukaku manages to avoid being sealed completely, he's still bound to lose a very large portion of his body. I'm not sure how effective he'd be after that, and there's nothing stopping Itachi from trying to seal him a second time.



We don't know just how much it would seal from an inanimate object, as it has only shown to seal things with souls (and its entourage). Not to mention Shukaku can replace what would be sealed with more sand which is what makes his specific ability just as usful agaisnt Ametarasu/Enton.


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## Trojan (Jan 8, 2014)

Itachi fans: the MS can control the Bijuu, therefore, itachi can do it no problem. 
Itachi's fans: It's true that the MS can control the Bijuu, and Kisame is the best amond the Akatsuki to hunt the
Bijuu, but they were talking about Kurama inside Naruto that can defeat them, even though itachi can control it. 

Meaning, this whole controlling stuff depend weather it'll help itachi to win (in this case can do it), or to take him out of statement and in this case itachi magically can't do it. U_U

With that bing said, I think the Sharingan can control any Bijuu as we know that obito did control Yagura
even though he has the 3tails within himself, and obito also made the Sharingan appear in the 5tails eye
which mean he did control him.

Tobirama explicitly said that Minato's Shunshin was faster.

IT. I have always believed that Gaara is stronger than itachi if they fought, but they are around the same level. U_U
it's just that Gaara is a bad match up for him. U_U


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## Jagger (Jan 8, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only Madara and Obito have been able to control Biju with their MS. Itachi, despite having the MS showed no affinity to being able to control any Biju. Gaara also can defend against Amaterasu. And what's so hard about using a Kai to break the genjutsu, if Itachi can actually do it, on Shukaku?


Ok, no offense, budy. But I don't understand your constant underestimation of Itachi's genjutsu skills. You can claim he isn't the bes genjutsu out there or that his genjutsu are not the most powerful, but he's definitely skilled *and* powerful at the same time.

The feat of controlling the perception of time is something that has not been shown with anyone else other than possibly Obito when he was the Juubi's Jinchuuriki. Other than that, Itachi is unique in such regard. Several other characters such as Shikaku remarked once about Itachi's impressive ocular abilities as he was the first shinobi that came to his mind when he theorized that someone was controlling the soldiers of the Alliance out from the radar of sensor shinobi.

That's damn impressive if you ask me. Not only that, but the MS was specifically said to control the Kyuubi, not that Obito and Madara had something "special" that allowed them to control the beast. I see no reason why Itachi can't do the same as them. 

I'm not saying he wins or anything, but I think you need to stop about that.


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