# Strongest GT character Beerus can beat?



## xmysticgohanx (Aug 9, 2014)

Who is it?


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## Iwandesu (Aug 9, 2014)

All.
He has the Best backed up statements and portrayal.(solar system+ against dozens of large star+ folks)
Their only chance is via blitzing which might be a thing.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Aug 9, 2014)

He beats them all


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## Imperator100 (Aug 9, 2014)

I have to disagree...
DBGT characters are signifigantly faster then Bills and have at least the DC enough to hurt him. 
Besides, we say "Large Star Level" but Buu dimmed a galaxy over x years. Considering it wasn't millions of years I think Solar System Level isn't a stretch for end of DBZ Anime characters, let alone GT characters.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 9, 2014)

there's certainly enough room for that interpretation, yeah

and that's all I'm gonna say here


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 9, 2014)

Wait... how fast are GT characters, and how fast is Beerus?

I know they are both MFTL, but how much for either?


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## Imperator100 (Aug 9, 2014)

MFTL?
O.O
I was under the impression Bills was Sub-Relativistic to Relativistic and DBZ Anime was Marginally FTL+ from King Kai being unable to track Frieza and Goku yet being able to track Namek Spaceships.


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## DreamySunday (Aug 9, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> Wait... how fast are GT characters, and how fast is Beerus?
> 
> I know *they are both MFTL*, but how much for either?




When did this happen?


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## Iwandesu (Aug 9, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> Wait... how fast are GT characters, and how fast is Beerus?
> 
> I know they are both MFTL, but how much for either?


Dbz anime is ftl+.
Only whiss is likely mftl on bog(1/10000 of his staff speed)
The others are either relativistic+ via kaioken or subrelativistic+ via gotenks


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## Imperator100 (Aug 9, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Dbz anime is ftl+.
> Only whiss is likely mftl on bog(1/10000 of his staff speed)
> The others are either relativistic+ via kaioken or subrelativistic+ via gotenks



So Bills is at a speed disadvantage of at least 10x, likely more?


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 9, 2014)

DreamySunday said:


> When did this happen?



Just me talking out my ass again apparently, I do that a lot.


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## Iwandesu (Aug 9, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> So Bills is at a speed disadvantage of at least 10x, likely more?


Yep , as I said in my first post try a blitz is the Only hope.
Sadly, even if they are 10 or even 100 times faster, Bills solar system busting is well above a average solar system busting. (Which is already far stronger than a star busting)
They eventually Will be hit and die.


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## Imperator100 (Aug 9, 2014)

Where does it say Bill's Solar System Busting is particullarly powerful? Honestly he is featless at that level, and might as well just blow up the Solar System's Sun "destroying" it. Even assuming they mean Solar System Busting as we mean it in the OBD, we can only really assume baseline SS busting for Bills.

Conversly we actually have a feat from the DBZ anime that if you calced would likely be way OVER Solar System Busting and those characters should theoretically be nothing compared to DBGT characters.


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## Gibbs (Aug 9, 2014)

So Basically a SS4 Gogeta vs Bills thread in disguise?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 9, 2014)

So how literally are we taking Toriyama's statement that Whis is only 1.5 times stronger than Beerus?


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## Iwandesu (Aug 9, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> So how literally are we taking Toriyama's statement that Whis is only 1.5 times stronger than Beerus?


"Whiss pl is 1,5 times bigger than bills" .Which doesn't change anything at all. 
Example?
Jump put Roshi's at 139 and daimao's at 200+. The latter can pretty much one shot the former.(0,5 times bigger)
Arriving namek Goku is 60k , he one shots rikum Which is 40k. (0,5 times bigger)
The stats are unquantifiable bigger.


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## Kazu (Aug 9, 2014)

Taken as we do other power level things. 

Whis is > than Beerus, but not actually 1.5 times. 

I mean, people like Arcueid who are stated to be 4x servant don't literally get 4x servant stats.


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## Iwandesu (Aug 9, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> Where does it say Bill's Solar System Busting is particullarly powerful? Honestly he is featless at that level, and* might as well just blow up the Solar System's Sun* "destroying" it. Even assuming they mean Solar System Busting as we mean it in the OBD, we can only really assume baseline SS busting for Bills.


Nothing suggests it.
Whiss states if z fighters irritate bills he will destroy the entire SS with an attack.
The explosion would then start in the earth and take over the SS.
Destroying the whole SS using earth as landmark takes more energy than just outright destroying it out the SS.


> Conversly we actually have a feat from the DBZ anime that if you calced would likely be way OVER Solar System Busting and those characters should theoretically be nothing compared to DBGT characters.


Which would be ?
Omega Shenron dark energy would collapse the universe over a period of time. 
There is no SS level feat on DBZ out wiss statement. (Goku galaxy busting statement is unreliable )


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 9, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> The explosion would then start in the earth and take over the SS.



We don't know that. All that's stated is that Beerus will destroy the solar system, not how or from where.


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## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Nothing suggests it.
> Whiss states if z fighters irritate bills he will destroy the entire SS with an attack.
> The explosion would then start in the earth and take over the SS.
> Destroying the whole SS using earth as landmark takes more energy than just outright destroying it out the SS.


Where does he say that? I haven't actualy seen Battle of Gods and thought Solar System Level came from something like Whis saying that when Bills got angry Solar Systems disappeared.



iwandesu said:


> Which would be ?
> Omega Shenron dark energy would collapse the universe over a period of time.
> There is no SS level feat on DBZ out wiss statement. (Goku galaxy busting statement is unreliable )


I'm taking about Anime Buu destroying a galaxy over in ... I think "hundreds of years" was it, maybe less. That wold be signifigantly over Solar System Level and that's just late DBZ anime.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

It's a complete unknown on how he'd do. The only comparison we can make is by the GT guidebook saying Vegito is "perhaps" stronger than SSJ4 Goku. Beerus is far above Vegito and thus one can conclude he'd be able to deal with anyone from the Baby Saga with a fair amount of ease. 

The rest though? Unknown. Not sure why anyone cares though as GT is nothing but garbage filler.


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## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> It's a complete unknown on how he'd do. The only comparison we can make is by the GT guidebook saying Vegito is "perhaps" stronger than SSJ4 Goku. Beerus is far above Vegito and thus one can conclude he'd be able to deal with anyone from the Baby Saga with a fair amount of ease.


Baby Saga characters were explicitly stated in GT to be stronger then Vegito. Plus Anime Vegito>Manga Vegito so even is Bills is far above Manga Vegito that means nothing compared to Anime Vegito



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> The rest though? Unknown. Not sure why anyone cares though as GT is nothing but garbage filler.


I personally didn't think GT was THAT bad. Honestly I thought it was mostly just boring. Although that might be because I don't watch most shonen.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> Baby Saga characters were explicitly in GT to be stronger then Vegito.



No they weren't and it makes no difference as there's an official statement saying Vegito is perhaps stronger than SSJ4 Goku. 



> Plus Anime Vegito>Manga Vegito so even is Bills is far above Manga Vegito that means nothing compared to Anime Vegito



And it's not like anime Vegito is above his manga counterpart by an astronomical margin so it matters not.

Either way, it's impossible to compare Beerus to GT as there's no proper scaling for it. He can be astronomically stronger or weaker. It's unknown. The best comparison is the GT Guide saying Vegito is perhaps stronger than SSJ4 Goku and Beerus is leagues above SSJ3 Vegito as Goku stated that even if he had merged with Vegeta they'd still lose and this was after receiving a beat down in which Beerus used nowhere near his full power. Goku's obviously not going to refer to a lower ssj form when making this statement.  



> I personally didn't think GT was THAT bad. Honestly I thought it was mostly just boring. Although that might be because I don't watch most shonen.



Except it was. Inconsistencies everywhere. Terrible plot. Terrible fights. Terrible transformations. Terrible villains. The only decent villain was Omega Shenron.


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## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> No they weren't and it makes no difference as there's an official statement saying Vegito is perhaps stronger than SSJ4 Goku.


Yes they were. Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta said tthat he had something like the highest amount of ki and Goku (who has gone up to SSJ Vegito) said that it was true, and it was a ki more powerful then anything he had ever felt. Golden Oozaru Baby Vegito>SSJ Vegito.

A Guidebook is a semi-questionable source, specially when it says someone only is only "perhaps" stronger. I think Goku's word expliccitly stating otherwise has more validity.




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And it's not like anime Vegito is above his manga counterpart by an astronomical margin so it matters not.


Yes he is. Manga Vegito is only Small Stellar and Sub-Relativistic whereas Anime Vegito is Solar System Level+ and FTL.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Either way, it's impossible to compare Beerus to GT as there's no proper scaling for it. He can be astronomically stronger or weaker. It's unknown. The best comparison is the GT Guide saying Vegito is perhaps stronger than SSJ4 Goku and Beerus is leagues above SSJ3 Vegito as Goku stated that even if he had merged with Vegeta they'd still lose and this was after receiving a beat down in which Beerus used nowhere near his full power. Goku's obviously not going to refer to a lower ssj form when making this statement.


The best comaprison would be taking the two different contunities and treating them as two different fictions since they have differnet feats. Manga Vegito is not the same as Anime Vegito. DBZ Anime has far greater feats that shown in the DB Part 2 Manga. Bills is more powerful then anyone in the DB Part 2 Manga but he DBZ Anime has him beat in speed feats and arguably in DC/Durability.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Except it was. Inconsistencies everywhere. Terrible plot. Terrible fights. Terrible transformations. Terrible villains. The only decent villain was Omega Shenron.


Mostly Opinion. And I have a rather large tolerance for bad things.


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## RandomLurker (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Except it was. Inconsistencies everywhere. Terrible plot. Terrible fights. Terrible transformations. Terrible villains. *The only decent villain was Omega Shenron.*



I don't know how you could say that when Omega Shenron was the most generic possible doomsday villain with no motivation other than to do evil things because he's evil. In my books all of them are bad. Baby's background was pretty much ripped off from Hatchiyack (although when GT was being made not too many people probably knew of "Plan to Destroy the Saiyans" existing, so that would not be obvious to a casual viewer), Super 17 was just ultra lazy and the Shadow Dragons came off as tired and boring.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> Yes they were. Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta said tthat he had something like the highest amount of ki and Goku (who has gone up to SSJ Vegito) said that it was true, and it was a ki more powerful then anything he had ever felt. Golden Oozaru Baby Vegito>SSJ Vegito.



Which is only another inconsistent mess with GT. Like I said, none of it proves they were deliberately created to be stronger than Vegito. 



> A Guidebook is a semi-questionable source, specially when it says someone only is only "perhaps" stronger. I think Goku's word expliccitly stating otherwise has more validity.



Just like I said above, another inconsistent mess that's consistent with GT. 



> Yes he is. Manga Vegito is only Small Stellar and Sub-Relativistic whereas Anime Vegito is Solar System Level+ and FTL.



Unless the time frame for Buu destroying a galaxy was specified then no he's not. 



> The best comaprison would be taking the two different contunities and treating them as two different fictions since they have differnet feats. Manga Vegito is not the same as Anime Vegito. DBZ Anime has far greater feats that shown in the DB Part 2 Manga. Bills is more powerful then anyone in the DB Part 2 Manga but he DBZ Anime has him beat in speed feats and arguably in DC/Durability.



Like I said above, unless the time frame for Buu destroying a galaxy was specified then no they don't. 



> Mostly Opinion. And I have a rather large tolerance for bad things.



The fact that it's despised world wide, I'd say it's a little more than mostly opinion. 

And once again, this is all pointless. Whis said Beerus could wipe out the solar system in an instant if he was irritated. That's not even said to be his limit, which makes this thread and the comparisons in it moot. 

There's nothing to go by to properly scale Beerus to GT.


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## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Which is only another inconsistent mess with GT. Like I said, none of it proves they were deliberately created to be stronger than Vegito.


You're arguing authorial intent. In-universe Goku said that Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta had the ki of any he had ever felt. This means that Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta had the highest ki of any character Goku had even seen, unless Goku was lying for absolutetly no reason whatsoever.




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Just like I said above, another inconsistent mess that's consistent with GT.


You can't really argue authorial intent here, Statement from the main Character that is Definite>Statemant from a Guidebook that is indefinite.




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Unless the time frame for Buu destroying a galaxy was specified then no he's not.


They said hundreds of years. Using a milky-way like galaxy and 1,000 years, it would still be over 9.5 stars a seconds and that's assuming he did nothing but teleport from star to star destroying them as opposed to fighting any defenders that showed up.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Like I said above, unless the time frame for Buu destroying a galaxy was specified then no they don't.



What I said above.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And once again, this is all pointless. Whis said Beerus could wipe out the solar system in an instant if he was irritated. That's not even said to be his limit, which makes this thread and the comparisons in it moot.
> 
> There's nothing to go by to properly scale Beerus to GT.


Just because something is stated to be a lower-feat for a character dosen't mean we can really assume them to be any higher. Bills is Solar System Level based of Whis's statement, but DBZ Anime characters have better speed and probably similar to better DC and Durability. So no, I think we can compare them and Bills dosen't have the feats to compete.


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## tari101190 (Aug 10, 2014)

I doubt anybody introduced in GT is more powerful that Beerus. SSj4 Gogeta may be the only character able to attempt to put up a fight though.

And it's not an opinion. GT made no sense. You can have your own opinion about liking it, but it wasn't good. I probably  enjoyed when I first watched it when younger, but that doesn't mean it was good. Liking something doesn't necessarily have anything to do with quality.


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## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

tari101190 said:


> I doubt anybody introduced in GT is more powerful that Beerus. SSj4 Gogeta may be the only character able to attempt to put up a fight though.


Citation needed.
Powerscaling wise GT characters are probably stronger.



tari101190 said:


> And it's not an opinion. GT made no sense. You can have your own opinion about liking it, but it wasn't good. I probably  enjoyed when I first watched it when younger, but that doesn't mean it was good. Liking something doesn't necessarily have anything to do with quality.


I don't like it, I said before that I didn't. That doesn't mean I am going to downplay it as weaker then it is.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> You're arguing authorial intent. In-universe Goku said that Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta had the ki of any he had ever felt. This means that Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta had the highest ki of any character Goku had even seen, unless Goku was lying for absolutetly no reason whatsoever.



You're saying the same shit over and over again and I'm telling you that with the inconsistent mess that GT is it's not exactly a defining statement. 



> You can't really argue authorial intent here, Statement from the main Character that is Definite>Statemant from a Guidebook that is indefinite.



Both of which contradict each other. And with as many contradictions as there are in GT, I don't know which is necessarily correct. 



> *They said hundreds of years.* Using a milky-way like galaxy and 1,000 years, it would still be over 9.5 stars a seconds and that's assuming he did nothing but teleport from stat to star destroying them as opposed to fighting any defenders that showed up.



And this is where? It's not in the dub and I haven't see the sub version. Never cared for the anime all that much to bother. 



> Just because something is stated to be a lower-feat for a character dosen't mean we can really assume them to be any higher. Bills is Solar System Level based of Whis's statement, but DBZ Anime characters have better speed and probably similar to better DC and Durability. *So no, I think we can compare them and Bills dosen't have the feats to compete*.



No we really can't. Beerus only ever used 70 percent of his power in the film. Secondly, it's never stated at what percentage of his power he'd need to be at to bust the solar system in an instant. Thirdly, we've no idea of Beerus's limit in terms of his DC. And finally, we don't know exactly where GT characters are in terms of DC. If it did take Buu hundreds of years then the top tiers of the anime DB Buu saga counterparts would be solar system level. It tells us jack shit about where GT characters would stand other than them being at solar system level dc as well based on power-scaling. 

So once again, no you cannot compare him to GT. At least not on an accurate basis as there's too many unknowns.


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## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> You're saying the same shit over and over again and I'm telling you that with the inconsistent mess that GT is it's not exactly a defining statement. .





The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Both of which contradict each other. And with as many contradictions as there are in GT, I don't know which is necessarily correct.


I...I honestly don't know how to argue this in any other way. One is in the very show and definite. One is in a databook and only say "perhaps." I don't know how else to say this, this seems like it would be the sort of a scenario OBD would have agreed to a while ago. Doesn't matter if GT is inconsistent, don't we usually use the highest end-feats unless they are outliers? Or are you going to suggest that Goku can't lift 40 tons?




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And this is where? It's not in the dub and I haven't see the sub version. Never cared for the anime all that much to bother.


In the sub it says "in hundreds of years". If you wait a moment I will dig up the scene.




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> No we really can't. Beerus only ever used 70 percent of his power in the film. Secondly, it's never stated at what percentage of his power he'd need to be at to bust the solar system in an instant. Thirdly, we've no idea of Beerus's limit in terms of his DC. And finally, we don't know exactly where GT characters are in terms of DC. If it did take Buu hundreds of years then the top tiers would of the anime DB Buu saga counterparts would be solar system level. It tells us jack shit about where GT characters would stand.


The second point contradicts your first point. Yes he was only using 70% but we don't know what percent what percent to actually SS bust. It could have 1%, it could have been 100%. We can't really assume he is anything past Solar System level though. If we start allowing assumptions you can say that GT characters should be waywayover the level of DBZ Anime and then you get into widl speculation and hyperbole.

GT characters are way over DBZ Anime characters in terms in terms of power. Goku said that General Rildo, in his first form, has a much power as Buu and fought him evenly while in base form.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> So once again, no you cannot compare him to GT. At least not on an accurate basis.


I disagree. Just because he hasen't shown his full strength doesn't mean we can just assume he is any stronger then his maximum. Otherwise you can make the argument that every character is fiction was secretly holding back and should really be stronger, and we would never get anywhere.

If Bills gets an upgrade from new feats then great but if he stayed eternally at this level then we coud "accuratly" compare him against GT characters.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> I...I honestly don't know how to argue this in any other way. One is in the very show and definite. One is in a databook and only say "perhaps." I don't know how else to say this, this seems like it would be the sort of a scenario OBD would have agreed to a while ago. Doesn't matter if GT is inconsistent, don't we usually use the highest end-feats unless they are outliers? Or are you going to suggest that Goku can't lift 40 tons?



GT is a massive inconsistency so I don't really go with anything regarding it. Hence the reason I hate debating about it. 



> The second point contradicts your first point. Yes he was only using 70% but we don't know what percent what percent to actually SS bust. It could have 1%, it could have been 100%. We can't really assume he is anything past Solar System level though. If we start allowing assumptions you can say that GT characters should be waywayover the level of DBZ Anime and then you get into widl speculation and hyperbole.



I'm not assuming he's above solar system or only solar system level. I'm saying it's unknown because it is. We have no clue what level of power he'd need to use to do it nor is it implied that it's his limit. Whis says if Beerus is irritated the solar system will be wiped out in an instant.  



> *GT characters are way over DBZ Anime characters in terms in terms of power.* Goku said that General Rildo, in his first form, has a much power as Buu and fought him evenly while in base form.



Which tells us jack shit about their DC. A higher power level tells us absolutely nothing about what they can blow up. We know Whis can blow up the solar system based on him being stronger than Beerus, but it doesn't tell us if he can blow up something bigger. 



> I disagree. Just because he hasen't shown his full strength doesn't mean we can just assume he is any stronger then his maximum. Otherwise you can make the argument that every character is fiction was secretly holding back and should really be stronger, and we would never get anywhere.



Except we never witness his maximum and it's never implied or stated that solar system busting is his maximum, so no you cannot *accurately* scale him to GT. 



> If Bills gets an upgrade from new feats then great but if he stayed eternally at this level then we coud "accuratly" compare him against GT characters.



No we couldn't because the most we see is him using 70 percent of his power and as I've said above, it's never implied or stated in the movie that solar system busting was his maximum. The way Whis put it made it seem like it'd be quite casual for him.


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## Iwandesu (Aug 10, 2014)

9,5 stars of different sizes is not solar system . 
The GBE of a solar system is more than 50 times the one of large star , let alone small star and average star.
And assuming he would destroy everything from earth give us roughly 100 times more iirc .


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## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> GT is a massive inconsistency so I don't really go with anything regarding it. Hence the reason I hate debating about it.


...Then why are you debating it? Ignoring that, inconsistent or not we should only disregard high-end feats when they are outliers.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> I'm not assuming he's above solar system or only solar system level. I'm saying it's unknown because it is. We have no clue what level of power he'd need to use to do it nor is it implied that it's his limit. Whis says if Beerus is irritated the solar system will be wiped out in an instant.


Still we shouldn't just assume that he is stronger. If we can't say he is at Solar System Level or Above Solar System Busting then we can't use him at all because his DC would be just "unknown". Since we are debating him we should use the conservative esimate of Solar System Level.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Which tells us jack shit about their DC. A higher power level tells us absolutely nothing about what they can blow up. We know Whis can blow up the solar system based on him being stronger than Beerus, but it doesn't tell us if he can blow up something bigger.
> I was just making the point that most DBGT characters can be scaled to Buu's feat which means most of them are Solar System+ in terms of power.
> 
> 
> ...


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> ...Then why are you debating it? Ignoring that, inconsistent or not we should only disregard high-end feats when they are outliers.



I didn't debate it. I came in here and specifically said Beerus' power relative to GT is unknown and then you proceeded to start a debate. 



> Still we shouldn't just assume that he is stronger. If we can't say he is at Solar System Level or Above Solar System Busting then we can't use him at all because his DC would be just "unknown". Since we are debating him we should use the conservative esimate of Solar System Level.



Use him all you want, but you can't *accurately* scale him to GT because there's too many unknowns. I'm not saying it again. 



> I was just making the point that most DBGT characters can be scaled to Buu's feat which means most of them are Solar System+ in terms of power.



And that's it. There's nothing else placing them above that DC. 



> If we can't take the conservative estimate and say he is at Solar System Level then we can't use him at all because we don't know his maximum DC.



Already discussed it. Not discussing it again. 



> And what would you have assume he is at, Solar System+, which is about the same, Multi-Solar System, which is assuming he's stronger. Each one could still be beaten by DBGT characters.



No they can't. Do you not get that a higher power level tells us jack shit about what they can blow up? The only Anime DB feat that is even debatable is Buu's galaxy destroying feat (which you still haven't provided proof of a time frame for) and that at best puts GT characters at solar system level (provided that time frame is hundreds of years). There's no feats in GT that puts them beyond that.


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## Iwandesu (Aug 10, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> And what would you have assume he is at, Solar System+, which is about the same, Multi-Solar System, which is assuming he's stronger. Each one could still be beaten by DBGT characters.


Again , debatable . 
Wasn't the timeframe a thousand years ? (Too much time since I watched the animu...)


> Ignoring the fact that Kid Buu isn't a particullarly efficient destroyer...
> Stars aren't bunched up together like that, you are corrent in that the energy to destroy 9 stars bunched together would be less tehn Solar System Level. However to actually destroy create a blast that could acutally destroy 9 stars would require over it.


It spam ? 
More seriously , we need an anime frame/ video.
I will see if I found one


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## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> I didn't debate it. I came in here and specifically said Beerus' power relative to GT is unknown and then you proceeded to start a debate.


You are debating it, right now, with me. If you didn't want to... why did you enter the thread and start commenting? This is a debate of GT character vs. Bills. Are you saying you planned on entering a debate of GT character vs. Bills just to say "You can't debate GT characters vs Bills"? 




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Use him all you want, but you can't *accurately* scale him to GT because there's too many unknowns. I'm not saying it again.





The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Already discussed it. Not discussing it again.


If you didn't want to debate or thought it undebateable then why mention it once? This is a Bills vs. thread. As such it should be clear that we have to assume that Bills is Solar System just to debate this. I assumed that you entering this thread meant you intrisically agree to assume Bills was Solar System Level or at least were prepared to argue he was something else.




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And that's it. There's nothing else placing them above that DC.


That's over Bill's only feat though so...




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> No they can't. Do you not get that a higher power level tells us jack shit about what they can blow up? The only Anime DB feat that is even debatable is Buu's galaxy destroying feat (which you still haven't provided proof of a time frame for) and that at best puts GT characters at solar system level (provided that time frame is hundreds of years). There's no feats in GT that puts them beyond that.


That feat (which I will find, it's just because I can't remeber what the episode was) would be in the Solar System Level-to Multi Solar System Level and even conservatively it means they are stong enough to beat Bills, especially when you factor in the fact that they are faster.



iwandesu said:


> Again , debatable .
> Wasn't the timeframe a thousand years ? (Too much time since I watched the animu...)


IIRC he said something like "in hundreds of years Buu turned thousands of planets into worlds of death" and then we see the entire galaxy disappearing.




iwandesu said:


> More seriously , we need an anime frame/ video.
> I will see if I found on.


Thanks that would be helpful since I'm not as familiar with DBZ.


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## Lurko (Aug 10, 2014)

It's s shame we don't know how strong Goku really became after he fused with Shenron in Gt and we don't know Ss4 Gogeta's feats when serious.  Anyway those two could probably stop him although I'm not sure.


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## King Kakarot (Aug 10, 2014)

Kid buu feat is actually even better it was only a few years

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

Thank you! That was exactly what I was looking for. What episode was it?


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Aug 10, 2014)

I hate Dragon Ball so hard for it's fanboys ... I used to love it ... Fuck you fanboys, I can't hear " kamehameha " without getting angry .


----------



## King Kakarot (Aug 10, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> Thank you! That was exactly what I was looking for. What episode was it?




Episode is called energy drain

So I guess you can make the case for solar system lvl kid buu 

Although kid buu is absolute shit tier in GT ssj4 goku straight up tanked baby vegeta death ball lol


----------



## Imperator100 (Aug 10, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> Episode is called energy drain
> 
> So I guess you can make the case for solar system lvl kid buu
> 
> Although kid buu is absolute shit tier in GT ssj4 goku straight up tanked baby vegeta death ball lol



You could make a case for Nebula Level. If it was only a few years then it would likely be thousands of stars a second.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 10, 2014)

I told myself I'd stay out of this, but I guess I haven't hammered GT powerscaling down yet hard enough



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Super Baby Vegeta 1 is stated by Goku to be the highest ki he's ever felt, which makes him superior to Anime Buuhan, whose power was enough to make Vegetto put serious effort into breaching his barrier
> 
> once more, GT powerscale:
> 
> SSJ4 Gogeta > Omega Shenron > Limits Surpassed SSJ4 Goku > Syn Shenron > Full power SSJ4 Goku > Great Ape Baby Vegeta > Super Baby Vegeta 2 > Super Baby Vegeta 1 > Buuhan and likely Vegetto > Base Baby Vegeta > SSJ3 GT Goku (Baby Saga) > Base GT Goku > Possibly Kid Buu



After the introduction of the Golden Great Ape and SSJ4, SSJ Vegeto isn't all that special anymore


----------



## Superrazien (Aug 11, 2014)

I feel like anyone strong enough to make Vegeta pretty much speaks enough volume on his power. [Youtube]mV8v9WVGiqk[/Youtube]


----------



## Iwandesu (Aug 11, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I hate Dragon Ball so hard for it's fanboys ... I used to love it ... Fuck you fanboys, I can't hear " kamehameha " without getting angry .


Where are you from Black and what site did you go?
Unless you actually give a darn bout YouTube or animevice, dbz fanbase isn't *that* disguting.
I see almost as much dbz downplay as overrate on dumb facebook matches.(comic vs anime aside)


----------



## LoveLessNHK (Aug 11, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Where are you from Black and what site did you go?
> Unless you actually give a darn bout YouTube or animevice, dbz fanbase isn't *that* disguting.
> I see almost as much dbz downplay as overrate on dumb facebook matches.(comic vs anime aside)



I don't think it is so much about the dbz fanbase and what they do to battle forums, but the fanbase in general with how cringe worthy they are as human beings.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Aug 13, 2014)

Anime Cell is also a ss buster because an anime guidebook confirmed it. So basically it depends on who can  outspeed Beerus?


----------



## Imperator100 (Aug 13, 2014)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Anime Cell is also a ss buster because an anime guidebook confirmed it. So basically it depends on who can  outspeed Beerus?


Guidebooks aren't evidence.


----------



## King Kakarot (Aug 13, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> Guidebooks aren't evidence.



well kid buu wrecked an entire galaxy in a few years so i guess * anime * cell does have some proof to his claim since stronger characters have showed solar system busting


----------



## Imperator100 (Aug 13, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> well kid buu wrecked an entire galaxy in a few years so i guess * anime * cell does have some proof to his claim since stronger characters have showed solar system busting


Key word there being STRONGER. Cell can't really be powerscaled to them considering that Buu Saga characters are made out to being signifigantly stronger then Cell Saga characters.


----------



## King Kakarot (Aug 13, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> Key word there being STRONGER. Cell can't really be powerscaled to them considering that Buu Saga characters are made out to being signifigantly stronger then Cell Saga characters.



but you need to realize that *kid buu nuked an entire galaxy in only a few years* that's some serious firepower that should be much above the baseline for Solar system busting

Cell can be scaled to that because he did say he had the power to destroy the solar system and then we see stronger characters outright nuke a galaxy which gives credit to cell claim


----------



## Iwandesu (Aug 13, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> but you need to realize that *kid buu nuked an entire galaxy in only a few years* that's some serious firepower that should be much above the baseline for Solar system busting
> 
> Cell can be scaled to that because he did say he had the power to destroy the solar system and then we see stronger characters outright nuke a galaxy which gives credit to cell claim


Kid buu never nuked an entire galaxy.
He emptied the astral bodies of it in few years spam. 
The way it was phrased seems much more of a mftl speed feat with potentially solar system level + dc if you would ask me. 
Which is actually an easier beat considering the huge amount of ftl feats anime had.
Cell was clearly buffling, Gohan scared and humillated the shit out him. Also ,on cell situation is easier to spot the "solar system busting=destroying sun" argument , even more when stronger folks like broly rampaged the galaxy by destroying the suns and planets.


----------



## Imperator100 (Aug 13, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> but you need to realize that *kid buu nuked an entire galaxy in only a few years* that's some serious firepower that should be much above the baseline for Solar system busting
> 
> Cell can be scaled to that because he did say he had the power to destroy the solar system and then we see stronger characters outright nuke a galaxy which gives credit to cell claim



Kid Buu seemingly destroyed a galaxy over a period of years. Also it's not like Dragon Ball hasn't had huge increases in power before:
End of Dragon Ball Part 1 is Island Level and yet start of Dragonball Z are Moon Level. You can't scale weaker characters to stronger character unless they outright fought and the weaker was able to hold their own in some way.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Aug 14, 2014)

Just remembered, isn't Anime Buuhan Universal?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Aug 15, 2014)

Not even close.


----------



## Iwandesu (Aug 15, 2014)

You mean when he opened a dimensional hole ?
Nope , not at all.(not even close actually)


----------



## trance (Aug 15, 2014)

He clears. 

He's solar system level+ against star level beings.


----------



## Imperator100 (Aug 15, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> He clears.
> 
> He's solar system level+ against star level beings.



Hes a Sub-Relativistic Solar System Level beings going up against FTL Large Star Level, probably Solar System to Multi-Solar System Level beings. Forgive me if I have my doubts.


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 15, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> Hes a Sub-Relativistic Solar System Level beings going up against FTL Large Star Level, probably Solar System to Multi-Solar System Level beings. Forgive me if I have my doubts.



"probably" tends to mean nada on the OBD, doesn't it? We stick to the lowest end unless we have good reason to believe otherwise.


----------



## Imperator100 (Aug 15, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> "probably" tends to mean nada on the OBD, doesn't it? We stick to the lowest end unless we have good reason to believe otherwise.



We do, Buu dimmed a galaxy in not centuries so DC should be well into Solar System to Multi-Solar System. When I said "Probably" I meant "it is, it just hasen't been calced to any definite number yet."


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 15, 2014)

Imperator100 said:


> We do, Buu dimmed a galaxy in not centuries so DC should be well into Solar System to Multi-Solar System. When I said "Probably" I meant "it is, it just hasen't been calced to any definite number yet."



Doesn't that(as others have pointed out) again, possibly be several factors, like speed? All he really would have to do is trigger supernovas, would he not?


----------



## Plague (Aug 15, 2014)

I think Beerus could beat Rildo and the first two forms of Baby Vegeta but not anything higher.


----------



## Imperator100 (Aug 15, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Doesn't that(as others have pointed out) again, possibly be several factors, like speed? All he really would have to do is trigger supernovas, would he not?


He'd have to be absuredly quick to do that, he was destroying I think dozens of stars a second. Even using teleportation that'd be pretty insane.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Aug 16, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> You mean when he opened a dimensional hole ?
> Nope , not at all.(not even close actually)


Dende said Buuhan was going to destroy the universe when Buuhan was ripping the dimensions in ep 270. I'm never wrong bruh 



Imperator100 said:


> Hes a Sub-Relativistic Solar System Level beings going up against FTL Large Star Level, probably Solar System to Multi-Solar System Level beings. Forgive me if I have my doubts.


I thought Beerus was accepted as mftl?


----------



## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Aug 16, 2014)

Why is beerus even being used in discussion? all we know is that he is massively stronger than ss3 goku and mystic gohan. 

- all he has is character statements. Since when are character statements taken literally in dbz ?? What happened to power scaling and feats?? -- the most any dbz character ( manga) has destroyed ( instantly) in 1 attack was a planet and that was kid buu. Frieza's feat of destroying a planet isnot "obd standard " DC. 

Frieza sent a blast through the earth to its core, destabilizing it. If a character destroyed a pillar which consequently leads to a collapsed building, we don't call the character building level, that character destroyed a pillar, so he is pillar level. 

Frieza's attack destroyed all the ground from the earths crust to its core in a fairly small AOE. - the whole that frieza created ( while deep) isnot that wide. That attack is hadly planet level dc, even though it caused the plane to fall apart.

I don't see how we go from at best destroying planets to lol confirmed solar system busting. 

A strategically placed juubi dama "could" destroy a planet. Does that mean kaguya is planet level since she should be able to warp juubidamas to the center of the earth?? 

I don't understand why a statement in dbz is taken for fact, especially when the best feat in the series is planet level ( kid buu) again, the best dc feat in dragon ball z is kid buu incinerating the earth in 1 attack. 
Does it make sense, no since fodder teir dbz is moon teir, but it's true. 

We won't even get new feats for beerus atleast till the next movie- he may not even be in it, he might never get feats. 

Any conjecture is grasping at straws, might was well be talking about TOAA.

About kid buu dimming star systems, the amount of time is vague, and we don't know how kid buu did it.

Remember it was kid buu + babidi . So it could be lol magic, teleport disrupt sun, time stop or some other tidbit.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Aug 16, 2014)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Why is beerus even being used in discussion? all we know is that he is massively stronger than ss3 goku and mystic gohan.
> 
> - all he has is character statements. Since when are character statements taken literally in dbz ?? What happened to power scaling and feats?? -- the most any dbz character ( manga) has destroyed ( instantly) in 1 attack was a planet and that was kid buu. Frieza's feat of destroying a planet isnot "obd standard " DC.



Reliable character statements that don't contradict anything are fine. King Piccolo was a delusional character that had plenty of time to show his planetbusting but didn't and the maximally destructive blast of someone stronger than him only leveled an island. Cell had only gained his current form of a short amount of time and didn't know his own power even before hence the idea of the cell games, and he and characters much stronger than him had plenty of time to show solar system busting but didn't. Whis, meanwhile, has been Beer's tutor for centuries, and Beers and his peers have only had a short amount of time to demonstrate otherwise.


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 16, 2014)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Why is beerus even being used in discussion? all we know is that he is massively stronger than ss3 goku and mystic gohan.
> 
> - all he has is character statements. Since when are character statements taken literally in dbz ?? What happened to power scaling and feats?? -- the most any dbz character ( manga) has destroyed ( instantly) in 1 attack was a planet and that was kid buu. Frieza's feat of destroying a planet isnot "obd standard " DC.
> 
> ...


The difference is beerus has obviously had plenty of time to know his limits, holds all the cards, and neither he nor whis have reason to lie - they're really not overconfident, because they have no reason to be - they are and still are the strongest beings in the galaxy. Overall, it's a pretty reliable usage of statement.

Last I checked Kaguya's actually small planet level or more from the creating the moon feat, so she actually IS a form of planet level. I'm not sure where you're getting this "if juubidama teleported into the earth then it would just blow it up" idea from. you'd still need a large explosion.

Frieza's explosion IS usable as planet level, due to 
-the actual explosion it caused being incredibly violent
-The fact that the only reason it was delayed in the first place being that Frieza held back a little bit 
-The fact that both he and Goku agree on this, and know that he could just fire again and blow the whole planet up, as stated right there, and later in the fight. this is casual power output even for tired, fighting for many minutes, drained from injuries frieza.
-The fact that by calcs Namek is much bigger than earth

Meanwhile Buu's planet vaping, by calcs, I do believe hits small star level.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 16, 2014)

How exactly is it confirmed that Beerus is stronger than Vegito?
This matchup is something I've been wondering about for a while, actually. 
As far as power portrayal goes, the two seem around equal. Vegito bitch-made Gohanbuu only slightly less effortlessly than Beerus did SSJ3 Goku. So if you consider that Gohanbuu >>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Goku, the standings are pretty even.


Also, it's a GT topic that included mention of Gogeta, so ...
*Spoiler*: __ 



MY GOD did GT fuck up SSJ4 Gogeta! This has got to be one of the biggest missed opportunities in the entire junkpile that is GT. You've got this unstoppable, insurmountably powerful guy, and he does fuck all. And why? Because the monkeys who wrote GT didn't realize that Vegito goofballing all over Gohanbuu wasn't in-character, but a trick to make Buu absorb him. Super Gogeta in fusion reborn is what happens when a Goku-Vegeta fusion isn't playing around. That's what they were supposed to base SSJ4 Gogeta on -.-


/GT hating


----------



## King Kakarot (Aug 16, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> How exactly is it confirmed that Beerus is stronger than Vegito?
> This matchup is something I've been wondering about for a while, actually.
> As far as power portrayal goes, the two seem around equal. Vegito bitch-made Gohanbuu only slightly less effortlessly than Beerus did SSJ3 Goku. So if you consider that Gohanbuu >>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Goku, the standings are pretty even.
> 
> ...



Before the movie beerus was called the strongest being in the history of Z


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 16, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> Before the movie beerus was called the strongest being in the history of Z




Which evidently isn't true since Whis is stronger than him, so...


----------



## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Aug 16, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> Before the movie beerus was called the strongest being in the history of Z



That's just a exaggeration, it's baseless hype that is so common in dbz. It's
Not even factual , whis is the strongest character in DBZ. 

Now Comparing vegeto to bills . 
- stomping ss3 goku isnot that great of a feat. 
-  unless goku got massively stronger between buu arc and battle of gods, then we assume- 

Super buu could beat  goku. 
- Buhan would absolutely slaughter goku ss3, on a similar scale as bills 


Feat wise- I don't think bills did anything buhaan couldnot do. - and vegeto was slaughtering him. 

Word of
God puts bills above, but I wonder if we should take Akira's words as fact- he is notoriously uninformed about his own work. 

- besides, if current goku and vegeta fused, then I'm confident vegeto/gogeta would win.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 16, 2014)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Why is beerus even being used in discussion? all we know is that he is massively stronger than ss3 goku and mystic gohan.
> 
> - all he has is character statements. Since when are character statements taken literally in dbz ?? What happened to power scaling and feats?? -- the most any dbz character ( manga) has destroyed ( instantly) in 1 attack was a planet and that was kid buu. Frieza's feat of destroying a planet isnot "obd standard " DC.
> 
> ...



If the statement is from a reliable source then it's perfectly fine. Whis taught Beerus and would obviously have a firm grasp of what he is and isn't capable of. Not to mention he has no reason to lie as he nor Beerus are insanely arrogant beings.



BigIsaac said:


> *How exactly is it confirmed that Beerus is stronger than Vegito?*
> This matchup is something I've been wondering about for a while, actually.
> As far as power portrayal goes, the two seem around equal. Vegito bitch-made Gohanbuu only slightly less effortlessly than Beerus did SSJ3 Goku. So if you consider that Gohanbuu >>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Goku, the standings are pretty even.
> 
> ...



Because word of god says he is. He's stated to be the strongest being in the history of Z and that includes Vegito. In the extended edition of BoGs Goku also stated that he wouldn't be able to beat Beerus even if he merged with Vegeta and this was after getting destroyed by a Beerus who used nowhere near his full power.




			
				BigIsaac;51490583[B said:
			
		

> ]Which evidently isn't true since Whis is stronger than him, so...[/B]



Obviously you're not capable of grasping the context of the statement. It specifically says the strongest being in the *HISTORY* of DBZ, which means anything proceeding BoGs. Not to mention Whis being revealed to be stronger than Beerus was an end of the movie tease and they very well couldn't reveal that before the movie launched. 



Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> *That's just a exaggeration, it's baseless hype *that is so common in dbz. It's
> Not even factual , whis is the strongest character in DBZ.
> 
> Now Comparing vegeto to bills .
> ...



No it's not. It's a factual statement that comes from word of god. And once again, discrediting the statement because Whis is stronger is ridiculously ignorant as the statement says in the HISTORY of Z, which means anything preceding BoGs and that information was exclusive to the movie (the ending at that) and they couldn't just reveal it before the movie even launched. Use some common sense.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 16, 2014)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> - besides, if current goku and vegeta fused, then I'm confident vegeto/gogeta would win.




If Beerus is stronger than Buu saga Vegito, then a current fusion would only be stronger if it involves the potara, not the dance.
Right now, SSJ1 Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ2 Vegeta thanks to the SSJG boost. That boost would  more than likely carry over to Vegito, but not to Gogeta. Unlike the potara, the dance requires both fusers to be at the same strength level, meaning Goku would have to pass on the boost he got from SSJG to meet Vegeta's level.

That being said, I'm positive that that's not how it's gonna go. I can't imagine a storyline where Beerus wakes up after 3 years, goes to earth again, inevitably loses the fight with SSJ1G Goku and then just leaves. Doesn't make for an exciting movie, especially now that both Beerus and Whis have been firmly cast as completely neutral. In fact I doubt they'll fight again at all.

My guess is that Akira will pull yet another "strongest guy in the universe" thing out of his hat. I imagine whoever is gonna get revived in the next movie is gonna be it. Maybe a former god of destruction or something. Eventually, Vegeta is gonna go SSJG as well and the whole thing will end with either a big huge slapfest between the evil god and Goku, Vegeta, Beerus and Whis, or with SSJG Vegito/Gogeta. 




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Obviously you're not capable of grasping the context of the statement. It specifically says the strongest being in the *HISTORY* of DBZ, which means anything proceeding BoGs. Not to mention Whis being revealed to be stronger than Beerus was an end of the movie tease and they very well couldn't reveal that before the movie launched.




Scale the condescension back a notch or two, why don't you?
Marketing statements like this should always be taken with a grain of salt. Also it was known well before the movie came out that Whis was stronger than Beerus. Plus, if secrecy was the only reason for this statement, then you're already admitting that it's dishonest, so who's to say that it isn't entirely hyperbole from the start?

Goku guestimating that even fusing with Vegeta wouldn't allow them to beat Beerus is a lot more reliable.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 16, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Scale the condescension back a notch or two, why don't you?
> Marketing statements like this should always be taken with a grain of salt. Also it was known well before the movie came out that Whis was stronger than Beerus. Plus, if secrecy was the only reason for this statement, then you're already admitting that it's dishonest, so who's to say that it isn't entirely hyperbole from the start?



It doesn't really matter what you think as it's a statement from word of god and nothing contradicts it. You can't dismiss something due to the fact that you don't like it. And no, Whis was never revealed to be stronger than Beerus until the movie was released. I followed everything related to BoGs and there was nothing that came out that officially stated Whis was stronger than Beerus. Fan assumptions? Yes. Official statements? No. 

And it's not dishonest. What don't you get about the statement being that he's the strongest in the history of Z? Do you conveniently miss the word history? It means anything before BoGs. Whis does not precede BoGs. I've said it 3 times now. 



> Goku guestimating that even fusing with Vegeta wouldn't allow them to beat Beerus is a lot more reliable.



They're both reliable. You saying it isn't doesn't change that.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 16, 2014)

Perhaps you shouldn't think that everything is directed at you. As I assume you realize now (since you edited that part out), my prediction of the next movie was very obviously directed at Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha, not you. 



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> It doesn't really matter what you think as it's a statement from word of god and nothing contradicts it. You can't dismiss something due to the fact that you don't like it. And no, Whis was never revealed to be stronger than Beerus until the movie was released. I followed everything related to BoGs and there was nothing that came out that officially stated Whis was stronger than Beerus. Fan assumptions? Yes. Official statements? No.




I'm not dismissing it because I dislike it. I'm _doubting_ it because Akira said it. I'd rather have in-universe, in-character evidence than word of god from a guy who is as inconsistent as he is.

You can't have followed it too closely, since I distinctly remember that Whis being Beerus' tutor was revealed several weeks before the movie released. Then again, that doesn't matter at this point.




> And it's not dishonest. What don't you get about the statement being that he's the strongest in the history of Z? Do you conveniently miss the word history? It means anything before BoGs. Whis does not precede BoGs. I've said it 3 times now.




Why are you taking this so personally? First of all, you brought up the possibility of them wanting to keep Whis' strength a secret. YOU said it. Not I.




> They're both reliable. You saying it isn't doesn't change that.




So, I already said that I accept Beerus being stronger than Vegito, and yet you still harp on about this just because you don't like the reason I accept it?
Honestly, this is utterly pointless. I'm not gonna continue arguing about the validity of a fucking hype-aiming marketing statement, especially since we have a different, much more reliable source confirming the same thing.
So yeah, Beerus > Vegito. I get it. End of story.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 16, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Perhaps you shouldn't think that everything is directed at you. As I assume you realize now (since you edited that part out), my prediction of the next movie was very obviously directed at Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha, not you.



And it was my mistake. 



> I'm not dismissing it because I dislike it. I'm _doubting_ it because Akira said it. I'd rather have in-universe, in-character evidence than word of god from a guy who is as inconsistent as he is.



That's even worse. You're doubting it BECAUSE it was a quote from word of god. 



> You can't have followed it too closely, since I distinctly remember that Whis being Beerus' tutor was revealed several weeks before the movie released.



Then you won't mind providing the official statement with the link saying so? 



> Why are you taking this so personally? First of all, you brought up the possibility of them wanting to keep Whis' strength a secret. YOU said it. Not I.



I'm not taking anything personally. You're trying to throw out a quote due to your perceived notion of it being dishonest which it is not. I've already mentioned why 3 times and will not again. 




> So, I already said that I accept Beerus being stronger than Vegito, and yet you still harp on about this just because you don't like the reason I accept it?
> Honestly, this is utterly pointless. I'm not gonna continue arguing about the validity of a fucking hype-aiming marketing statement, especially since we have a different, much more reliable source confirming the same thing.
> So yeah, Beerus > Vegito. I get it. End of story.



If you didn't want to discuss it then you should have never bothered responding in the first place. The fact is that it's a factual statement from a legitimate source which you can only claim isn't worth taking seriously because it's promotional material. Not because it's disproven or any other legitimate reason.  That's not a valid reason nor will it ever be one, but you can choose to believe whatever you'd like.


----------



## LordPerucho (Aug 16, 2014)

Toriyama said Bills was the strongest villain the Z fighters encountered,  Bills is around Super Yi Xing Long level based on feats.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 16, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> That's even worse. You're doubting it BECAUSE it was a quote from word of god.




Indeed. Because the god in question is very inconsistent. 
I don't find his statements outside of his works reliable, so I chose to question it. What the fuck is so bad about that?





> Then you won't mind providing the official statement with the link saying so?





I said I distinctly remember it, not that I have a source. 





> I'm not taking anything personally. You're trying to throw out a quote due to your perceived notion of it being dishonest which it is not. I've already mentioned why 3 times and will not again.





Stop trying to spin the argument. 
I called the statement dishonest in the case of a hypothetical scenario YOU came up with. It's the scenario in which the statement tried to hide that Whis is in fact the strongest DBZ character. YOU mentioned this possibility. Not I. If this scenario were true, then it would indeed be dishonest. 





> If you didn't want to discuss it then you should have never bothered responding in the first place.




I don't want to discuss this any more because it no longer has any meaning. Whether the statement is reliable or not matters jack shit, because Goku already confirmed in-universe, in-character that Beerus is stronger than Vegito. 
I wasn't aware of that fact until after I questioned Akira's statement.




perucho1990 said:


> Toriyama said Bills was the strongest villain the Z fighters encountered,  Bills is around Super Yi Xing Long level based on feats.




Christ, which is it? Is Beerus supposed to have been the strongest _character_ or the strongest _villain_?
If it's the latter, then that makes this argument even more meaningless


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 16, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Indeed. Because the god in question is very inconsistent.
> I don't find his statements outside of his works reliable, so I chose to question it. What the fuck is so bad about that?


Yet you approve the statements in the film that he writes.  Sorry if I actually take the word of the man who writes the damn series at face value. 



> I said I distinctly remember it, not that I have a source.



Which doesn't help your case at all. If you're going to claim something then provide evidence to back that claim up. 



> Stop trying to spin the argument.
> I called the statement dishonest in the case of a hypothetical scenario YOU came up with. It's the scenario in which the statement tried to hide that Whis is in fact the strongest DBZ character. YOU mentioned this possibility. Not I. If this scenario were true, then it would indeed be dishonest.



No it wouldn't because there was nothing dishonest about the statement to begin with. Them trying to keep something hidden as a means to avoid spoilers does not constitute dishonesty. 



> I don't want to discuss this any more because it no longer has any meaning. Whether the statement is reliable or not matters jack shit, because Goku already confirmed in-universe, in-character that Beerus is stronger than Vegito.
> I wasn't aware of that fact until after I questioned Akira's statement.



Then why are you still responding? 



> Christ, which is it? Is Beerus supposed to have been the strongest _character_ or the strongest _villain_?
> If it's the latter, then that makes this argument even more meaningless



There were two statements. One confirming he's the strongest villain they've ever faced and another confirming he's strongest character in DBZ history.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 16, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> No it wouldn't because there was nothing dishonest about the statement to begin with. Them trying to keep something hidden as a means to avoid spoilers does not constitute dishonesty.




dis?hon?es?ty noun 
: lack of honesty : the quality of being untruthful or deceitful

Them saying something that's not true means they're being dishonest.
Honestly, are you being serious? This is little more than arguing semantics. As I said multiple times already, this whole argument became meaningless the moment I was informed that Beerus > Vegito has been confirmed in-universe.




> Then why are you still responding?




Because to simply stop responding is bad form.




> There were two statements. One confirming he's the strongest villain they've ever faced and another confirming he's strongest character in DBZ history.




I see.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 16, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> dis?hon?es?ty noun
> : lack of honesty : the quality of being untruthful or deceitful
> 
> Them saying something that's not true means they're being dishonest.
> Honestly, are you being serious? This is little more than arguing semantics. As I said multiple times already, this whole argument became meaningless the moment I was informed that Beerus > Vegito has been confirmed in-universe.



Except they never said something that wasn't true. Beerus being the strongest being in DBZ history (which means anything preceding BoGs and that is now the 4th time I've said it) is true as Whis didn't exist before BoGs. 

So no, them concealing something as a means to avoid spoilers does not constitute dishonesty in this case. 




> Because to simply stop responding is bad form.



No it's not, especially if you have nothing more to say on the matter. In fact I'm done with this debate as there's really not much more to discuss.


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## Sablés (Aug 16, 2014)

> No it's not, especially if you have nothing more to say on the matter. In fact I'm done with this debate as there's really not much more to discuss.



Shocking how undervalued the skill of knowing when and what not to post, is in this section.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Has this turned to Vegito vs Beers? Beers was so powerful they couldn't even detect his ki, Vegito wasn't. That's in-series evidence.


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## Xiammes (Aug 18, 2014)

No Beers didn't have Ki, he had godly energy or someshit so they couldn't detect it.


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## Sablés (Aug 18, 2014)

Doesn't matter. Goku stated he and Vegeta fused couldn't take Beers in a fight, this being before Beers got serious.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> No Beers didn't have Ki, he had godly energy or someshit so they couldn't detect it.



Didn't the same thing happen to SSG goku?


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## God Movement (Aug 19, 2014)

Why does it matter if Beers had ki or not? In one of the extra scenes it was stated that even if they were to fuse they probably wouldn't stand a chance. Beers beats Vegito decisively unfortunately.


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 19, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> My guess is that Akira will pull yet another "strongest guy in the universe" thing out of his hat.



It was also revealed in that movie that there are other universes outside their own that have sired stronger fighters than Beerus and Whiz.

I think it's all too possible that those universes could be introduced, and that their strongest fighters, who are equal to and/or stronger than Beerus and Whiz, could be introduced as combatants (if not necessarily enemies in a strict sense).

_______________


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## BigIsaac (Aug 19, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> It was also revealed in that movie that there are other universes outside their own that have sired stronger fighters than Beerus and Whiz.
> 
> I think it's all too possible that those universes could be introduced, and that their strongest fighters, who are equal to and/or stronger than Beerus and Whiz, could be introduced as combatants (if not necessarily enemies in a strict sense).




Yeah, that's definitely a possibility. There's this line in the teaser trailer that someone is supposedly gonna be revived, though. Perhaps it's gonna be both - i.e. a guy from one of the other universes comes to the main one and uses earth's dragon balls to bring someone back to life, who would then serve as the main villain of the movie. 

What I'm wondering is how the parallel universe thing works. Are they completely separate, or do they work similarly to DBZ multiverse, where there's a Goku, Vegeta, etc in every alternate universe who all different in only a few key areas.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 19, 2014)

All of them. 

Beerus literally stands in a dimension of power above every character in Dragonball GT, *as none of them possess the power of a God, as Beerus does.*  It was stated that Beerus was the most powerful entity in all of Dragon Ball Z (barring Whis), and that includes Vegito.


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 19, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Yeah, that's definitely a possibility. There's this line in the teaser trailer that someone is supposedly gonna be revived, though. Perhaps it's gonna be both - i.e. a guy from one of the other universes comes to the main one and uses earth's dragon balls to bring someone back to life, who would then serve as the main villain of the movie.
> 
> What I'm wondering is how the parallel universe thing works. Are they completely separate, or do they work similarly to DBZ multiverse, where there's a Goku, Vegeta, etc in every alternate universe who all different in only a few key areas.



From what I gathered they were completely separate adverse to being parallel. It could be either though, there is no definitive proof of anything.

I'd laugh so hard if the universes were parallel, only differing in minor elements, and if one of these parallel universes was GT.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 19, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> From what I gathered they were completely separate adverse to being parallel. It could be either though, there is no definitive proof of anything.
> 
> I'd laugh so hard if the universes were parallel, only differing in minor elements, and if one of these parallel universes was GT.




That's basically what the DBZ multiverse manga is.
In one universe, Goku never came to earth, leading Krillin to be the hero, and eventually becoming 
In another, Gohan lost the kamehameha struggle against Cell, causing all the heroes to die. 
In yet another, Bardock somehow managed to kill Frieza
etc etc
Basically a selection of "what if?" stories


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 19, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> That's basically what the DBZ multiverse manga is.
> In one universe, Goku never came to earth, leading Krillin to be the hero, and eventually becoming
> In another, Gohan lost the kamehameha struggle against Cell, causing all the heroes to die.
> In yet another, Bardock somehow managed to kill Frieza
> ...



Oh, I guess I misunderstood what you meant.

I've never heard of these 'what if' stories.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 19, 2014)

Still more canon than GT


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 19, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Still more canon than GT



Oh, fanfiction, still seems interesting though.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Aug 20, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> That's basically what the DBZ multiverse manga is.
> In one universe, Goku never came to earth, leading Krillin to be the hero, and eventually becoming
> In another, Gohan lost the kamehameha struggle against Cell, causing all the heroes to die.
> In yet another, Bardock somehow managed to kill Frieza
> ...


But in DBM the "prime" universe takes stuff from the anime like broly, and the other universes are completely new stuff apart from doctor slump and future trunks's universe.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 20, 2014)

Toriyama has said every dimension (I don't remember the actual word) with a version of Goku is in the 7th universe so the universes are completely different. BTW just cause Beerus has god ki doesn't mean mortals can't beat him, just look at Kaioshin (Supreme Kai in English). All we know it means is that a mortal can't sense them and on average, gods > mortals: Kaioshin being stronger than Freeza and Beerus being stronger than Vegetto.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 23, 2014)

Sorry to bump but how fast would kid buu have to be to do his feat?


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## King Kakarot (Aug 23, 2014)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Sorry to bump but how fast would kid buu have to be to do his feat?





Since it was only a few years I good degree FTL


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2014)

Didn't Bibidi have that teleportation spell like Babidi?


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