# Who is the overall strongest of the current Five Kage?



## trance (Sep 3, 2013)

Who is it?


----------



## Bonly (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki followed by Tsunade or Tsunade followed by Onoki, whichever tickles your fancy but it's one of those two. I personally go with the former.


----------



## Blu-ray (Sep 3, 2013)

Judging by there performance against Madara and skills in general, I have to say Onoki, and by a decent margin. People can say Ay can blitz or dodge all his attacks, but for me, that is simply because Ay's abilities match up better, not because he is better. The fact that he carried the other Kage's and they were outright helpless without him makes me believe as a ninja, not who would win in a fight, that he is better than the rest.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki
Tsunade
Ei
Gaara
Mei

Match-up wise, Onoki and Tsunade are probably more difficult against a wide variety of the verse because of Jinton and Byakugo. Raikage's speed and durability comes third, while Gaara's sand and Mei's KG are the easier matchups because their power derives from simple elemental techniques. The less versatile you are, the weaker you ultimately will be ranked.

If you're asking to rank them based on their five individual abilities- in other words, like a 5 way free for all, the list would differ because a few of them draw power from the ability to support and powerup others (Onoki, Tsunade), aside from the fact that the only way to really rank someone is by the scale of the entire verse- not by this list. In my view, I rank ninja by how difficult of a matchup they would be against the average high-level opponent, which is why Tsunade is above Raikage- who is relatively non-versatile.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki is at the top, followed by Ei, then Tsunade, Gaara, and lastly Mei.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 3, 2013)

Onnoki
Tsunade
Ay
Gaara
Mei


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Sep 3, 2013)

when considering Oonokis age as well as the ''GouKages'' collective feats & tied-in portrayal, they're all equals.

But Oonoki is a tier above the other 4 ''on paper'' imo


----------



## zimmawannatuba (Sep 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Onoki followed by Tsunade or Tsunade followed by Onoki, whichever tickles your fancy but it's one of those two. I personally go with the former.



Why is everyone picking Onoki?
He farts and his back goes out FFS!

Gaara has carried his old ass during the whole war!


Gaara is the strongest Kage.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> Why is everyone picking Onoki?
> He farts and his back goes out FFS!
> 
> Gaara has carried his old ass during the whole war!
> ...



Onnoki survived Both of Madara's meteors dead on. Don't downplay his durabilty.


----------



## Ennoia (Sep 3, 2013)

Hard to chose just one but I would think it depends on how you view strength. If we are talking about who can beat the most people then Onoki would probably be the strongest but if we go with the person thats best equipped for the most situations then Gaara. Onoki is pretty much limited to nuking and while Gaara can beat most people he is much more versatile with sealing, defenses, and what not. Tsunade is pretty much limited to punching an healing and Mei's abilities just dont seem to match up against top tiers; she needs more feats. A, while powerful, dosent have the devastation that Onoki does and is pretty much limited to fighting. So Onoki or Gaara.


----------



## zimmawannatuba (Sep 3, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Onnoki survived Both of Madara's meteors dead on. Don't downplay his durabilty.



He didn't survive 2 of them.
He could fly, and lightened one.  Gaara picked it up as well.

The force of the 2nd impact primarily was consumed crushing the 1st rock.  He took a huge hit, but he got heals too.  He was in no shape to fight.


How many times has Gaara saved his ass already?
Sorry, but he is just too old.


----------



## Bonly (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> Why is everyone picking Onoki?



Because they view him as the strongest as well.



> He farts and his back goes out FFS!



Always nice to see exaggerations.



> Gaara has carried his old ass during the whole war!



No he didn't.




> Gaara is the strongest Kage.



Nope.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 3, 2013)

Oonoki.

Ten characters.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> He didn't survive 2 of them.
> He could fly, and lightened one.  Gaara picked it up as well.
> 
> The force of the 2nd impact primarily was consumed crushing the 1st rock.  He took a huge hit, but he got heals too.  He was in no shape to fight.
> ...


General nonsense. Onoki single-handedly wiped out an army of Susano clones with his weight manipulation and Jinton Release while Gaara was laying on the ground, Tsunade was getting impaled, Raikage was getting Genjutsu GG'd and Mei was about to give up. 

In several instances it was obvious when all the cards were out that Onoki was by far the strongest combatant of the 5- he was the one staring down Madara when the other 4 were shitface scared. He is the leader, and he is the strongest.


----------



## zimmawannatuba (Sep 3, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> General nonsense. Onoki single-handedly wiped out an army of Susano clones with his weight manipulation and Jinton Release while Gaara was laying on the ground, Tsunade was getting impaled, Raikage was getting Genjutsu GG'd and Mei was about to give up.
> 
> In several instances it was obvious when all the cards were out that Onoki was by far the strongest combatant of the 5- he's also the most versatile.



Good for him, when he isn't completely uses crying over his broken back, then occasionally he can do something useful.  Well, sorta useful anyways, because that really didn't accomplish much.  

He has a lot of destructive power no doubt, but his age puts him in a very bad position when facing strong opponents.  He does well against fodder though!

How is he suddenly the leader?

He sure as hell isn't the most versatile!
You can argue strength if you want, but versatility clearly goes to Gaara.


----------



## ShinobisWill (Sep 3, 2013)

Oonoki and Ei are definitely the top two.

Gaara is 3rd. Mei and Tsunade fight for 4th/5th.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Sep 3, 2013)

How does Gaara have versatility over Oonoki?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> Good for him, when he isn't completely uses crying over his broken back, then occasionally he can do something useful.  Well, sorta useful anyways, because that really didn't accomplish much.
> 
> He has a lot of destructive power no doubt, but his age puts him in a very bad position when facing strong opponents.  He does well against fodder though!
> 
> ...


Not useful? He single-handedley destroyed 20+ towering Susano clones when the other 4 kage were virtually defeated. 

His character and determination when the shit hit the fan was remarkable- the man's reaction to a fucking meteor being pulled out of space to crash down and obliterate him was to fly up and stop it from moving- which he did. 

What he has done in the war, the character he is, and the versatility that is his arsenal CLEARLY shows the other 4 to be insufficient peers. The next time you suggest Gaara as a superior combatant over Onoki, a Kekkei Tota master, I will immediately negative rep you.


----------



## zimmawannatuba (Sep 3, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Not useful? He single-handedley destroyed 20+ towering Susano clones when the other 4 kage were virtually defeated.
> 
> His character and determination when the shit hit the fan was remarkable- the man's reaction to a fucking meteor being pulled out of space to crash down and obliterate him was to fly up and stop it from moving- which he did.
> 
> What he has done in the war, the character he is, and the versatility that is his arsenal CLEARLY shows the other 4 to be insufficient peers.



Well they were tired from carrying his old ass up to that point probably.

You act like Gaara wasn't even there for the meteor incident.

Insufficient piers, yet Gaara had to keep saving him...


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 3, 2013)

Ōnoki was specifically pointed out by Madara as being the best among the Five Kage. The rest are all fairly comparable.​


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> Well they were tired from carrying his old ass up to that point probably.
> 
> You act like Gaara wasn't even there for the meteor incident.
> 
> Insufficient piers, yet Gaara had to keep saving him...



Onoki immobilized and systemically erased an army of Madara Susano clones in an instant. Onoki stopped a gargantuan meteor from dropping to the earth and destroying an army. 

Gaara, Ei, Mei, and Tsunade did not do this. Gaara, Ei, Mei, Tsunade and the alliance would have been decimated if Onoki was not there.  

Onoki is superior.


----------



## zimmawannatuba (Sep 3, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Negative repped.
> 
> Onoki immobilized and systemically erased an army of Madara Susano clones in an instant. Onoki stopped a gargantuan meteor from dropping to the earth and destroying an army.
> 
> ...


Ohh no, don't neg me, QQ!

Why do you keep saying Onoki stopped the meteor?  Gaara helped!

You are giving no other Kage credit for their accomplishments.  Any Kage would look superior if we talk about his feats, and ignore everyone else's.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> Ohh no, don't neg me, QQ!
> 
> Why do you keep saying Onoki stopped the meteor?  Gaara helped!
> 
> You are giving no other Kage credit for their accomplishments.


He put up a half-assed sand pillar support- what the fuck is sand going to do against a dropping meteor alone? He offered minimum help.

Onoki manipulated the weight to nothing, then he stopped the momentum of it's trajectory via Madara's Gravity pull with "help" from Gaara's sand pillars, which he had time to put up after Onoki slowed it's drop speed to a near crawl. 

At this point, you've brought nothing to the table that suggests Gaara has done anything worthy of mention compared to a man who obliterated a Susano army and stopped a meteor.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 3, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Onoki immobilized and systemically erased an army of Madara Susano clones in an instant. Onoki stopped a gargantuan meteor from dropping to the earth and destroying an army.
> 
> Gaara, Ei, Mei, and Tsunade did not do this. Gaara, Ei, Mei, Tsunade and the alliance would have been decimated if Onoki was not there.
> 
> Onoki is superior.



I do think Onnoki is the strongest, but your forgetting all the support he needed from Tsunade. If Tsunade wasn't there in the first place, he would have died of his injuries. And wiping out Sussano clones was impossible if not Tsunade helped.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I do think Onnoki is the strongest, but your forgetting all the support he needed from Tsunade. If Tsunade wasn't there in the first place, he would have died of his injuries. And wiping out Sussano clones was impossible if not Tsunade helped.


There are other medics. 

There's a number of scenarios where each ninja was needed to successfully combat Madara. Moreover, he'd already inflated the weight of 5 of them to the point of complete paralysis and saved Raikage, so they would have defeated the rest anyway.


----------



## zimmawannatuba (Sep 3, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> He put up a half-assed sand pillar support- what the fuck is sand going to do against a dropping meteor alone? He offered minimum help.
> 
> Onoki manipulated the weight to nothing, then he stopped the momentum of it's trajectory via Madara's Gravity pull with "help" from Gaara's sand pillars, which he had time to put up after Onoki slowed it's drop speed to a near crawl.
> 
> At this point, you've brought nothing to the table that suggests Gaara has done anything worthy of mention compared to a man who obliterated a Susano army and stopped a meteor.



What do you think holds up the building your sitting in?  Jesus?  
Support columns.  

There was no Madara's Gravity pull.  It was just a big ass rock falling.

You are just so biased that this discussion is pointless.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> What do you think holds up the building your sitting in?  Jesus?
> Support columns.
> 
> There was no Madara's Gravity pull.  It was just a big ass rock falling.
> ...


Are you seriously suggesting that sand pillar could support 3% of that dropping meteor at full speed? He didn't even manage to cover the full bottom of the circular meteor. 

Do you think he summoned the meteor? He pulled it with his Rinnegan.


----------



## Veracity (Sep 3, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> There are other medics.
> 
> There's a number of scenarios where each ninja was needed to successfully combat Madara. Moreover, he'd already inflated the weight of 5 of them to the point of complete paralysis and saved Raikage, so they would have defeated the rest anyway.



The other medics are booty. And probably couldn't even heal his wounds in time for him to fight. Madara would've just wiped out his useless ass. 

Even so, I'm not under the impression he could've destroyed those Sussano clones without Tsunade  Moreover, not as easily as he did with the aid of Tsunade.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 3, 2013)

1. Onoki: Madara called him the most dangerous of the Kages and the hardest to break over the course of the battle. Has the feats of stopping Madara's meteor on his own, saving A from five Susano'o clones, and vaporizing 25 Susano'o clones when Tsunade supercharged him.
2. Tsunade: Byakugo allows her to heal from almost any attack, could destroy Susano'o through sheer physical strength alone, only Kage able to regain consciousness after the battle with Madara and enabled them to survive the battle with her summoning of Katsuyu. 
3. Gaara: Defeated the Second Mizukage and the Fourth Kazekage, could hold his own against his five Susano'o clone opponents, and could seal various enemies.
4. Mei Terumi: Two Kekkei Genkai-Yoton and Futton which can burn through Susano'o and she can counter Madara's Katons with her own huge Suitons on her lonesome.
5 A: Sad to say but the manga's original Lightning Bruiser is the weakest of the current five. He couldn't do two shits to Madara's Susano'o on his own, lacks overall power in his blows, is shit for support. I have a feeling he should be stronger, but sadly isn't due to his lack of versatility and strategic sense.


----------



## ShinobisWill (Sep 3, 2013)

There's no way in hell that Tsunade is above Ei or Oonoki.

She contributed greatly to the Madara fight because she was a healer and had back-up. But all Madara has to do is cut off her head or rip her in half instead of stabbing her repeatedly like an idiot, and she's done for. 

She's one of the weakest of the Gokages. She would lose to Ei, Oonoki and probably even Gaara in a one on one fight. Mei is a toss up simply from her lack of feats.

 Though Tsunade is still probably the most vital to the team as a whole.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 3, 2013)

Tsunade or Ohnoki.

I feel more comfortable siding with Tsunade because of who she shares her titles with as one of the Prodigal Three and one of the Hokages.

Her Hokage predecessors have consistently been the strongest of their generations. For me, that immediately sets a precedent unless it is specifically highlighted otherwise, and it would just seem weird from a storytelling perspective for Kishi to suddenly break this pattern off for a village the main character doesn't even belong to and hardly associates with near the end of the manga. (Madara saying he was beginning to see a difference in experience, not strength, while observing Ohnoki and Ay is not specifically highlighting otherwise, btw.)



*Spoiler*: __ 



Analyzing the Susano'o clone fight:

_Susano'o_ went and punched _through_ whatever Mei hit it with and sent her flying into what was almost her death. Ay and Gaara couldn't phase _Susano'o_ and could only evade/defend, getting put down as soon as their attention was divided.

Tsunade was basically to her set of clones what Kamiccolo was to Android 17: Whilst she sustained no "net damage" because of her ultimate regeneration jutsu this level of _Susano'o_ was able to restore the damage from the strikes she dealt out in retaliation before she broke all the way through to the clones. The issue was that her stamina was finite whereas the stamina of her opponent was constantly being replenished via _ET_. Summoning Katsuyu would have been a waste of chakra as well, so she would have just continued knocking her clones across the field until she ran out of juice like she did after the following mega-ultra-supercharged _Jinton_ and Katon flurry regenerating.

Ohnoki couldn't _Jinton_ his clones to death because they could activate Preta to absorb it (as long as it wasn't the combination effort I-wasn't-expecting-that-kind of big _Jinton_ where they didn't have a sufficient amount of time to do so) and rock golems could be smashed. All he could do was weigh his set down. Problem? The effect is temporary, and he was admittedly about out of chakra by the time he was able to pull it off. So, like Tsunade it was simply waiting on his chakra to run out, except his would have run out faster than hers, and he couldn't say "at least I rattled mine up some before I went out".


Madara calling Ohnoki the most experienced (which we all already knew anyway), does not mean he was the "best". He wanted to break Ohnoki's will because his pep talks kept raising the determination of the Kages _(1)_, _(2)_ which he had been trying to break down since his revelation of Hashirama's face on his chest _(3)_.

But if we're going by that the number one spot still goes to the Hokage, who Madara pointed out was the one responsible for keeping the others in the fight so long _(4)_ and who despite being targeted as the Kage Madara vowed to kill first _(5)_ was the only one who could have possibly survived the results of his off-panel rampage _(6)_ and wound up saving the others once more _(7)_, 
_(8)_.





So yes, I think I'm going to just side with Tsunade here.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 3, 2013)

Oonoki actually annoyed me by doing so well.  I'd sort of expected for the Hokages to always be the best, since Hiruzen was supposed to be the best of the kages, and Minato was the genius that comes along every 500 years who soloed wars, and Hashirama was evidently too OP for the universe.  Tobirama was Hashirama's brother, and Tsunade was his granddaughter, and Hiruzen's apprentice, and able to fight Orochimaru, who killed two kage.  So I didn't expect Oonoki to show up and suddenly show off 50 jutsu and OP disintegration rays, as well as be a super support and fly.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 3, 2013)

I only have a problem with (well. . .as in I find it kind of odd, not annoying or anything) how he was doing beforehand and how he's doing now.

I mean his performance against the Edo Kage was good, but it didn't seem to really be any better than Gaara's, though later this same day he was doing a whole lot better than the Kazekage once Madara showed up.

. . . . . .what happened when?


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Sep 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I only have a problem with how he was doing beforehand and now.
> 
> I mean his performance against the Edo Kage was good, but it didn't seem to really be any better than Gaara's, though later this same day he was doing a whole lot better than the Kazekage once Madara showed up.
> 
> . . . . . .what happened when?



Because of Madara? He desires to defeat Madara so much instead of Mu and Trollkage.

Actually I like the spotlight Onoki gains, I get annoyed why Konoha must always be the main focus on everything lol. This is Shinobi world war, not Konoha civil war.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I only have a problem with (well. . .as in I find it kind of odd, not annoying or anything) how he was doing beforehand and how he's doing now.
> 
> I mean his performance against the Edo Kage was good, but it didn't seem to really be any better than Gaara's, though later this same day he was doing a whole lot better than the Kazekage once Madara showed up.
> 
> . . . . . .what happened when?




Oonoki got a WILL OF STONE power-up and jumped tiers.  

Actually, he was low on chakra when he started supporting Gaara, because Muu ran him down.  So normal Gaara is equal to tired Oonoki I guess?



Legendary Itachi said:


> Because of Madara? He desires to defeat Madara so much instead of Mu and Trollkage.
> 
> Actually I like the spotlight Onoki gains, I get annoyed why Konoha must always be the main focus on everything lol.



I enjoyed seeing Gaara get to have another real fight.  What bothered me about Oonoki was that he didn't really seem to ever stop being useful since the moment he showed up, and I wanted to see more from everyone else.  He was half or more of the reason they beat Muu, he was a contributor against Trollkage, he stopped the meteor and a half, he came up with the back pack Raikage plan, he saved them from flower world, he beat his 5 Madara clones, he was the moral support every time they got their spirit crushed, and on and on and on.

In retrospect, it's fine now, and I like him, but at the time I kept thinking, "Who the hell is this old man making everyone look bad?"


----------



## ThunderCunt (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki so far seems strongest, he was in front line with gara dealing with meteors and stuff.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 3, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Because of Madara? He desires to defeat Madara so much instead of Mu and Trollkage.
> 
> Actually I like the spotlight Onoki gains, I get annoyed why Konoha must always be the main focus on everything lol.



Konoha is where Naruto is from, though.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Oonoki got a WILL OF STONE power-up and jumped tiers.
> 
> Actually, he was low on chakra when he started supporting Gaara, because Muu ran him down.  So normal Gaara is equal to tired Oonoki I guess?



Will of Fire > Stone Will. 

Gaara had just beaten his predecessor Kazekage, though, and then went to go help Ohnoki (and Naruto) with Mu, who they only half sealed, before becoming more than half of the reason they beat Nidaime Mizukage.

Then Madara appeared and I was like "yeah Ohnoki, definitely Ohnoki".


----------



## Sans (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki clearly lead the fight against Madara.


----------



## Ersa (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki.

Jinton is amazingly good offense, flight and Doton are solid defense and support jutsu and Madara praised him for both experience and power over the other Kage. He was easily the strongest.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Sep 3, 2013)

Easily Onoki. He did the most during the fight (stopping a meteor, destroying the flower world, immobilizing his batch of susanoo clones, and was able to vaporize 25 susanoo clones. Not to mention Madara singled him out as the one he needs to deal with the most. 

Everything points to Onoki being the strongest among them.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki or Tsunade are both perfectly legitimate choices. Onoki was the moral support of the Gokage, his experience was highly beneficial in protecting them too, and certainly his jutsu are probably the most lethal out of the five. However, I don't think its actually fair to say that he led the fight against Madara. Tsunade did that more than he did, imo. She was the one to engage him in CQC by herself, shatter his defenses and go on to punch a hole in his chest - the other Kage merely acted as support. Even before/after that, she was _directing_ _allies_ on the battlefield, making _team decisions_, and repeatedly attempting to protect the Gokage. In the end, she was the last one standing - showcasing how far her resilience is above the other Kage (especially considering her injuries were the most severe).

Personally I would side with Tsunade, and from a portrayal perspective I think that makes more sense.​​


----------



## Garcher (Sep 3, 2013)

Itachi's dead corpse


----------



## zimmawannatuba (Sep 3, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that sand pillar could support 3% of that dropping meteor at full speed? He didn't even manage to cover the full bottom of the circular meteor.
> 
> Do you think he summoned the meteor? He pulled it with his Rinnegan.



Unless he made the meteor lighter than air, then that is exactly what I am saying. 
Did you see the meteor fly off?  No?  Well then the sand absorbed the impact, and was supporting its reduced weight.


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade or Ohnoki.
> 
> I feel more comfortable siding with Tsunade because of who she shares her titles with as one of the Prodigal Three and one of the Hokages.
> 
> ...



This is a great analysis.
As far as the fight goes you have to give it to Tsunade imo, as she is king of support.

As far as all around strength, then I have to go with Gaara.
He is young and inexperienced, but I think he could handily beat the other kage in 1v1.  Hell he has already single handedly defeated 2.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 3, 2013)

Strongest - Onoki
Best Shinobi - Tsunade & Onoki


----------



## Baroxio (Sep 3, 2013)

If I had to rate their effectiveness as Kage I'd do so as follows:


*Onoki*, because Jinton is OP and weight manipulation is pretty freaking HAX.
*Tsunade*, ridiculous strength, ridiculous regen, can protect a village where the others have trouble.
*Gaara*, because he's great pretty much all around. Flight, anti-Doton, sealing and generally very good at juggling offense and defense. Can protect village easily.
*Mei*, because she has pretty huge Suitons that can even protect against Madara's ridiculous army-threathening Katons, meaning that they are fucking huge to the nth power,  plus she has tons of utility with Hidden mist and acid mist. Arguably she and Gaara could switch places, but Gaara has a much stronger defense, and if he's back in his village he's pretty much God.
*Ei*, because while he's an incredibly powerful combatant, he's too limited to really do much on the scales the other Kage can function on. Onoki's Jinton is fucking huge, Mei's suitons are fucking huge, the amount of sand Gaara can control is fucking huge, and the amont of people Tsunade can heal is fucking huge. Ei can't really do much besides running up to you and smashing your face in. Furthermore, he kinda fails hardcore when compared to his Dad/previous Kage, who had a stronger and better version of his Raiton shroud, plus an actual ranged technique that he passed on to Darui instead of his own son. Seriously, WTF?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki is the strongest mainly because of his Earth style jutsus (being able to withstand Madara's Senju technique is pretty OP) along with his determination as a ninja that helped all the Kages fight at their best puts him at the top IMO.

 The weakest is possibly the Raikage simply because he's not versatile and focuses more on striking an opponent head on instead of ranged combat which puts him at a huge disadvantage against foes like Sasuke.


----------



## Blu-ray (Sep 3, 2013)

zimmawannatuba said:


> Good for him, when he isn't completely uses crying over his broken back, then occasionally he can do something useful.  Well, sorta useful anyways, because that really didn't accomplish much.
> 
> He has a lot of destructive power no doubt, but his age puts him in a very bad position when facing strong opponents.  He does well against fodder though!
> 
> ...



Are you serious right now? Go re-read the fight. Onoki, in the entire fight against Madara, never broke his back. That is simple comic relief. He carried the five kages. He inspired them, led them, saved them, and when they couldn't handle five susano'o clones, he handled his share, and had to go save the rest of them. What did Gaara even offer in that fight aside from the final combination attack, and his mother shield with the rock golem? Cause I don't remember.


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> Are you serious right now? Go re-read the fight. Onoki, in the entire fight against Madara, never broke his back. That is simple comic relief. He carried the five kages. He inspired them, led them, saved them, and when they couldn't handle five susano'o clones, he handled his share, and had to go save the rest of them. What did Gaara even offer in that fight aside from the final combination attack, and his mother shield with the rock golem? Cause I don't remember.



That is more of a feat for Tsunade tbh.  Handled his share, lol.  He delayed them with his boulder jutsu, and ran out of chakra.
He was fairing no better than the others really.

Are you forgetting before that, when he pretty much single handedly defeated 2 Edo Kage?

Gaara was holding his own against Madara just like all the others. 
The only one to really shine was Tsunade, as she kept their team going.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade or Ohnoki.
> 
> I feel more comfortable siding with Tsunade because of who she shares her titles with as one of the Prodigal Three and one of the Hokages.
> 
> ...



You do realize that out of all those titles, she is portrayed as the weakest. I don't understand why she is on the same level in combat as Jiraiya or Orochimaru. It doesn't make much sense, considering they have spent all their life trained to be a combatant, and she has trained all her life to be a medic. Therefore, at least in combat, she is weaker than Jiraiya and Orochimaru.


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> You do realize that out of all those titles, she is portrayed as the weakest. I don't understand why she is on the same level in combat as Jiraiya or Orochimaru. It doesn't make much sense, considering they have spent all their life trained to be a combatant, and she has trained all her life to be a medic. Therefore, at least in combat, she is weaker than Jiraiya and Orochimaru.



The title is Legendary Sannin.
Not Legendary Badass combatant.

We can see by this fight why she deserves that title.
*EASILY *the most important Kage on that battlefield.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> The title is Legendary Sannin.
> Not Legendary Badass combatant.
> 
> We can see by this fight why she deserves that title.
> *EASILY *the most important Kage on that battlefield.



She might be a Sannin, but she still doesn't compare to her counterparts.

But this isn't about them, it's about the Gokage. Onoki is certainly the strongest out of that bunch.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 3, 2013)

1) Oonoki

2/3/4) Gaara/Ei/Tsunade 

5) Mei


----------



## RedChidori (Sep 3, 2013)

Oonoki by far. That Jinton is ridiculously powerful


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> She might be a Sannin, but she still doesn't compare to her counterparts.
> 
> But this isn't about them, it's about the Gokage. Onoki is certainly the strongest out of that bunch.



Not in battle alone, but as a support she is certainly legendary.

In destructive potential I might go with Onoki, but I still sayTsunade's support was the only thing holding these guys up.  
For instance, if Kakashi was Hokage and out there instead, then they would have been fucked a long time ago.


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 3, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Ōnoki was specifically pointed out by Madara as being the best among the Five Kage. The rest are all fairly comparable.​



This ^

Any other answer is wrong       .


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 3, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> You do realize that out of all her titles, *she is portrayed as the weakest*. I don't understand why she is on the same level in combat as Jiraiya or Orochimaru. *It doesn't make much sense, considering they have spent all their life trained to be a combatant, and she has trained all her life to be a medic.* Therefore, at least in combat, she is weaker than Jiraiya and Orochimaru.



I strongly disagree, and that's with me being a bigger Jiraiya fan than a Tsunade fan.

She has never been portrayed as the weakest, and to be quite honest you don't even base the abilities of characters on a traditional power-deadlock in even the loosest sense unless they're relative equals.

If that were the case I'd have expected Hanzo to say something like "The two of you guys are awesome and that blonde chick in the back is good at healing" instead of "The three of you are strong".

That isn't the only implication either, as the belief that to defeat one of the Sannin another member of the Sannin is required would include Tsunade. Being Jiraiya was never the requirement, that statement means any one of them can at least compete with either of the remaining two. That's the entire reason everybody was okay with her taking the position instead of Jiraiya. And I don't want any of this "Jiraiya was there so it didn't matter" excuse because Jiraiya was rarely ever in the village to begin with as he was always traveling around running his spy organization, and he took a two and a half year leave as soon as Tsunade got put in office, and obviously he can't do crap if he isn't there.



She was recognized as an exceedingly gifted child _before_ she took up medicine. How do I figure this? Because of Orochimaru's words to Kabuto.

*Humph. It was pure and simple war experience that laid the groundwork for that idea. . .the sacrifice. . .of so many lives. People only realize the true value of something after they've lost it. And what brought about one of the prodigal shinobi three. . .becoming a medical specialist. . .was simply the desire to avoid more loss of life. . .*​
And his words to Jiraiya and Tsunade after Nawaki's death.

*This is the inevitable end for a shinobi, since there are no medics on the battlefield.*​
(The Sannin were present during this war and actively participating in it, so. . .)

*But there are still none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle, or medical ninjutsu.*

*She may have retired from the front lines. . .but what power. . .so this is a living legend?*​
We know Tsunade doesn't view being the medic as any excuse to be subpar in the field of battle through Sakura's flashbacks, and this isn't any sort of surprise given what we've seen from her either, because all she went and did was integrate medical ninjutsu _into her fighting style_ as she picked it up. It was never her excuse to slack off in combat ability.

Chakra enhanced strength? An application of medical ninjutsu. Lol.
_Shosen_? An application of medical ninjutsu. She was two seconds away from killing Orochimaru with it.
_Ranshinshō_? An application of medical ninjutsu. She fucked up Kabuto's nervous system with it.
_Chakra no Mesu_? An application of medical ninjutsu. Ask Kabuto, and it's implied that her skill with the jutsu is comparable to his own.
_Sōzō Saisei/Byakugō no Jutsu_? The ultimate application of medical ninjutsu. She pile-drives _Susano'os_ with it.

Even her ability to transfer chakra can be used to fight if we keep in mind that she incorporates summons into her arsenal and then put things into perspective. Just imagine how dangerous a supercharged spray of Katsuyu's already sizable _Zesshi Nensan_ would be.


So, by no means do her skills as a medic do not preclude her skills in combat; that is a huge (and unfortunately common) misunderstanding. She did not become _feared_ as one of the _strongest three_ for lagging behind the other two. She, a _member of the three_ ninjas, never has and probably never will be presented as the weak link who can only compare because she can support others.

Kishi isn't too sexist to allow it either (though the way in which he said it sounded kind of offensive):

*But she, the object of this admiration, is one of those rare individuals who is not limited by being a woman ninja nor by any other constraints of a ninja.*​
I don't think her being a medic (which has really only allowed her to become more lethal) has any more of an effect on her than Jiraiya being a spy has on him (as we saw against Pein, slip away and fight from the shadows are tactics he has come to use), or Orochimaru being a mad scientist has on him (hello True Form with the hax paralytic vapors and body-snatching we saw against Pre-hebi Sasuke), because she is first and foremost a gifted field ninja expected to do combat.

If you still want to go ahead and say she's weaker anyway, that's fine. But I hope you don't expect me to suddenly switch to your interpretation from mine.

Tsunade isn't Sakura, plain and simple. There is a reason Madara was only ever cornered once Tsunade began going on the offensive instead of healing her peers.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 3, 2013)

1 - Onoki
2 - Raikage
3 - Gaara
4 - Tsunade
5 - Mei


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> This ^
> 
> Any other answer is wrong       .



He said the most experienced.
He just had the best skill set to deal with the Susanoo.

I mean, this really proves nothing!


----------



## Naiad (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki and tsunade by far


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 3, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> I mean if like Kakashi was Hokage and out there instead, then they would have been fucked a long time ago.






While it's true Kakashi couldn't provide the Kages' with the support Tsunade provided, there is no denying that the Copy Ninja would have provided a genuine threat to Uchiha Madara whilst being aided by four Kages due to his diverse movepool, god like intellect, and the ability to send opponents into another dimension. Kakashi's in-battle tactics are second to none, the battle would have panned out much differently.

Essentially, the Gokage would have posed more of a threat to Madara, offensively, while with Tsunade, it was merely a case of delaying the inevitable.


----------



## egressmadara (Sep 3, 2013)

Onoki (guy is ridiculous for an old man. He'd be even more capable back in his prime)
Raikage - with his speed, durability, stamina, and strenth he'd maul any of the kages.
Tsunade - versatile, is stronger than the Raikage physically, number 1 medic.
Gaara - would have placed gaara much higher if he had access to his desert.
Mei - so.... so... disappointing.


----------



## Cord (Sep 3, 2013)

Base on their performance against Madara?



Strategoob said:


> Ōnoki was specifically pointed out by Madara as being the best among the Five Kage. The rest are all fairly comparable.​





Santoryu said:


> This ^
> 
> Any other answer is wrong       .





Couldn't think of a better answer either.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I strongly disagree, and that's with me being a bigger Jiraiya fan than a Tsunade fan.
> 
> She has never been portrayed as the weakest, and to be quite honest you don't even base the abilities of characters on a traditional power-deadlock in even the loosest sense unless they're relative equals.
> 
> ...


I never said she was weak,I said she was*weaker*. Her support could make her as good as Jiraiya and Orochimaru, but overall combat-wise, she isn't as strong as them. But she isn't sub-par, either. To engage Tsunade in a CQC battle is not a good idea, and she shouldn't be taken lightly like Sakura. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



We're probably just too bias for our own good .


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 3, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Base on their performance against Madara?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



/thread? /thread.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 3, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> I never said she was weak,I said she was*weaker*. Her support could make her as good as Jiraiya and Orochimaru, but overall combat-wise, she isn't as strong as them. But she isn't sub-par, either. To engage Tsunade in a CQC battle is not a good idea, and she shouldn't be taken lightly like Sakura.



I know you weren't saying she was weak, but I don't agree that she's been _portrayed_ as being any weak_er_ than her two contemporaries.

The way I see it, her medical prowess isn't a way of compensating for a strength-gap but simply her jutsus proving to be multi-purpose. In one field or the other, she is right there with them, not because we have to add up both of her fields up for that to be the case.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> We're probably just too bias for our own good .



Oh yes, I'm definitely going to argue that my _favorite_ Sannin _isn't_ stronger than another out of _bias_.

/sarcasm

But like I said we can agree to disagree.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I know you weren't saying she was weak, but I don't agree that she's been _portrayed_ as being any weak_er_ than her two contemporaries.
> 
> The way I see it, her medical prowess isn't a way of compensating for a strength-gap but simply her jutsus proving to be multi-purpose. In one field or the other, she is right there with them, not because we have to add up both of her fields up for that to be the case.
> 
> ...



I still find it hard to believe you have a favorite. 

And we're both certainly not changing opinions because some dude on the internet tried to convince us otherwise. 

I would go into moar detail, but that would be off-topic, wouldn't it?


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I know you weren't saying she was weak, but I don't agree that she's been _portrayed_ as being any weak_er_ than her two contemporaries.
> 
> The way I see it, her medical prowess isn't a way of compensating for a strength-gap but simply her jutsus proving to be multi-purpose. In one field or the other, she is right there with them, not because we have to add up both of her fields up for that to be the case.
> 
> ...


I must add one moar thing here, FlamingRain.



And this:


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> /thread? /thread.



Again, that only means he was the strongest in that situation.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 3, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Again, that only means he was the strongest in that situation.



Yeah. In another situation, against a weaker opponent. He would still be.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 3, 2013)

_I Am Probably Wrong_, The Toad Sage will forever be my favorite Sannin. (Character period, really)



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> I must add one moar thing here, FlamingRain.



If he hadn't left the battlefield so quickly that would have been the second time he retracted his statement. Since, y'know. . .she kept them alive more than a few seconds.



> And this:



I went over the meaning of this in my initial post already. 



> He wanted to break Ohnoki's will because his pep talks kept raising the determination of the Kages _(1)_, _(2)_ which he had been trying to break down since his revelation of Hashirama's face on his chest _(3)_.


----------



## johnsuwey (Sep 3, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Yeah. In another situation, against a weaker opponent. He would still be.



You mean like when Gaara carried his old ass?



FlamingRain said:


> I know you weren't saying she was weak, but I don't agree that she's been _portrayed_ as being any weak_er_ than her two contemporaries.
> 
> The way I see it, her medical prowess isn't a way of compensating for a strength-gap but simply her jutsus proving to be multi-purpose. In one field or the other, she is right there with them, not because we have to add up both of her fields up for that to be the case.
> 
> ...


When it comes to pure combat she is obviously the weakest of the 3.  However, that isn't what makes her legendary.  It is her support and medical skills that make her legendary.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Sep 3, 2013)

Combat wise it's Onoki but when you take into account her Medical Ninjutsu Supprt abilities Tsunade is overall the better ninja 

Tsunade/Onoki 
Gaara
Raikage
Mei


----------



## Kazekage94 (Sep 3, 2013)

Well Gaara is the most supportive without him some of the Kages couldn't even face madara. They would be dead


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> _I Am Probably Wrong_, The Toad Sage will forever be my favorite Sannin. (Character period, really)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Onoki still seems like the better ninja to me, even after I read your post. He has an incredibly strong one-hit-kill ninjutsu, and tons of Doton to back it up.

Tsunade, while strong, has Taijutsu, essentially, and a rather predicatable style to go from that. She punches and heals. Punches and Heals. A lot of shinobi can get through her, while less can get through Onoki.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 3, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Onoki still seems like the better ninja to me, even after I read your post.



Well there isn't much I can do if you believe his jutsus can take on a wider range of opponents than hers.

I just don't think that particular statement is a testament to power is all.


----------



## raizen28 (Sep 3, 2013)

Gaara and Onoki relevant


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Well there isn't much I can do if you believe his jutsus can take on a wider range of opponents than hers.
> 
> I just don't think that particular statement is a testament to power is all.



Statements are normally the worst way of portraying something, especially if they are indirect.

I just like to annoy.

What Tsunade really lacks for me is range. I'm not sure she could take down many long-range ninja, i.e. Deidara, Gaara, and Onoki and Mu to a certain extent.


----------



## Jagger (Sep 3, 2013)

Even Madara whose arrogance is beyond imagination stated Onoki is a pain in the ass due the fact he kept on fighting and saving the Kage multiple times.


----------



## Jad (Sep 3, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 1 - Onoki
> 2 - Raikage
> 3 - Gaara
> 4 - Tsunade
> 5 - Mei


Combat wise I agree with this.


----------



## Ennoia (Sep 3, 2013)

Jad said:


> Combat wise I agree with this.



Why Raikage over Gaara? I can name so many more people that A cant beat that Gaara can or at least stands a better chance against. Also A isnt really useful in team fighting.


----------



## Jad (Sep 3, 2013)

Yeah, but I have my reasons. I pictured that if Gaara went into the skies (with gourd sand), he would be defeated by Ei due to a battle of attrtion. Ei can't reach him but Gaara can't hit him, and Ei has more Chakara. Also, while Gaara can create more sand by landing on the ground, Ei is not going to let him out of his sight, so if his flying further away, on the ground Ei is giving chase. 

For a Desert battle, again more of the same thing, question is if Ei can keep up with dodging the sand attacks which would be greatly intensified? Can Gaara keep up the assault before his Chakara gives way? I think once Ei gets caught, Gaara might smother him in sand and bury him. Could he break out? Possibly...I mean if Gaara sand grabs him by the foot, Ei would most likely have enough strength to break out of it before more sand piles on him. So would he even get cocooned in sand before he could escape? I don't  think so. Although I definitely don't believe Ei can Raiton no Shunshin multiple times, and if Gaara forces that, then Gaara wins.

Mind you I can't be arsed referencing, if you want I can populate it after with examples. Little stretched for time at the moment.


----------



## Tsunami (Sep 3, 2013)

1st. Onoki
1st. Ay
2nd. Tsunade
3rd. Gaara
5th. Mei

Onoki and Ay are very close in skill that's why I put them as a tie. Tsunade and Gaara could flip positions possibru.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 3, 2013)

Overall eh....i would say onoki because he can clean up enemies very well and enable his team to do so as well through his various earth style ninjutsu. I swear giving A the ability to fly, make stronger punches and move faster is one reason A even looked that good during the battle with madara.

Tsunade is a very, very close second though with her superb healing, superb support summon and above average battle strength.


----------



## tracytracy22 (Sep 4, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Who is it?



Is this based on the their performance against Madara? If so...

1 - Oonoki/Tsunade > both equally as useful. I cant pick them apart tbh. 
2 - Mei/Gaara > despite having to be saved and giving up, she proved just as useful as Gaara, if not more.
3 - Ay > needed help from Oonoki in order to damage his susanoo, something Oonoki, Tsunade and Mei, were able to do themselves. 

In terms of battle power...well thats very difficult to tell. A lot of factors must be considered, especially location, which is a large determinant for Mei's success. When you think about it, she's capable of defeating her fellow Kage but it all depends on location. But I'd still pick Oonoki - he's in a different class t o the rest of them.


----------



## Rai (Sep 4, 2013)

Based on 1 vs 5 Susano'o:

1 - Onoki
2 - Raikage 
3 - Tsunade
4 - Gaara
5 - Mei


----------



## convict (Sep 4, 2013)

1. Onoki (class above the rest)
2. Gaara (when all is said and done will be the greatest of these five)
3. Tsunade (really shined this arc)
4. Raikage (big mouth disappointment)
5. Mei (token fodder of the kages)


----------



## J★J♥ (Sep 4, 2013)

Onoki
He can lift islands, stop falling meteors and destroy everything on subatomic level.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Sep 4, 2013)

Going by the Madara fight:

1. Oonoki

2. Gaara

3. Tsunade

4. One-armed A

5. Mei


----------



## Hero (Sep 5, 2013)

1. Tsunade
2. Onoki
3. Mei
4. Gaara
5. A

I think Mei and Gaara could switch places. But when I look at Mei's jutsu, I think they are far too devastating for Gaara's sand to handle. Her mist could melt him to the bone. Suitons can wash away his sand. And the lava will eventually get through as well.

However he does seem to be more skilled and has more endurance. But with her hidden mist, I doubt he could beat her one on one.

Tsunade beats Onoki through portrayal. Honestly they are a toss up


----------



## Mane (Sep 5, 2013)

Overall strength? Definitely Ōnoki.


----------



## tracytracy22 (Sep 6, 2013)

Hero said:


> 1. Tsunade
> 2. Onoki
> 3. Mei
> 4. Gaara
> ...



With Mei, like I said in my previous post, location is a huge factor. With Tsunade, in a neutral location (no water, just an open field) it might go 50/50 or slight edge Tsunade. In an enclosed space or in an ocean or something then you would have to favour Mei.

Against Gaara, in a desert she has no chance. In a neutral area, its hard to say maybe 50/50 but again, in an enclosed space or in an ocean you would have to favour Mei.

Same story with Onoki except the enclosed space must have a low ceiling because if he gets too high up he's out of range. Low ceiling = greater chance. Her water dragon jutsu would be perfect in this kind of a situation - huge, difficult to avoid and if Onoki has to keep moving around, then Mei wouldnt have to worry about Jinton.

With Ei I think starting distance would be a bigger factor.

As for Tsunade vs Onoki, Onoki has the big edge IMHO. But their both comparable tbh - they just have a different skill-sets, with one a ranged fighter and the other one close ranged. But both are equally as versatile and skilled but just in different areas.


----------



## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 7, 2013)

Onoki is the strongest of the current Gokage.
Tsunade is the second strongest.
Then Gaara.
Then A.
And last Mei.


----------



## Ersa (Sep 7, 2013)

1. Onoki
2. A / Tsunade
3. Gaara
4. Mei


----------



## joshhookway (Sep 7, 2013)

Onouki
A
Mei
Gaara
Tsunade


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 7, 2013)

*As Fighters:*

Onoki
Tsunade
A
Gaara
Mei

*As Kages:*

Tsunade
Onoki
Gaara
Mei
A


----------

