# Castiel and Crowley vs The Avengers



## Erjey (Nov 23, 2013)

Team 1:
Base Castiel and Crowley from SPN

Team 2:
Movie Avengers

Location:Manhattan
Distance: 50 m


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## MAPSK (Nov 23, 2013)

Are we talking early Cas or post-revival Cas? If it's the former, Team 1 stomps easily. Team 1 probably stomps easily anyway, but it's particularly bad if it's Seraph Cas.


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## Stermor (Nov 23, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Are we talking early Cas or post-revival Cas? If it's the former, Team 1 stomps easily. Team 1 probably stomps easily anyway, but it's particularly bad if it's Seraph Cas.



would thor actually be affected by cas's abilities? if not he gives avengers the win.. 

crowley is a non issue btw..


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## Ulti (Nov 23, 2013)

Base Cas can BFR and his true form should fuck them up. Crowley would also get the chance to fuck shit up with mindfuck, enhanced telekinesis, BFR of his own. Only thing I can think of is speed maybe being a problem  thor should be able to take crowley at least, not sure about Cas.

Yes Seraph Castiel would make it a brutal stomp. Soulfuck, mindfuck, timefuck etc:


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## Erjey (Nov 24, 2013)

That's post-revival Cas. I thought there would have been some challenge.


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## Stermor (Nov 24, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> Base Cas can BFR and his true form should fuck them up. Crowley would also get the chance to fuck shit up with mindfuck, enhanced telekinesis, BFR of his own. Only thing I can think of is speed maybe being a problem  thor should be able to take crowley at least, not sure about Cas.
> 
> Yes Seraph Castiel would make it a brutal stomp. Soulfuck, mindfuck, timefuck etc:



i don't think true form would do jack to thor.. kinda sucks that there are no real mind/soulfuck attacks in the avengers at this point. since thor should be somewhat protected/capable of it on his own..  

also crowley telekenisis sucks. hulk wouldn't even feel its effects.. also his mindfuck is totally useless in a fight.. aswell as his bfr..


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 24, 2013)

what in the heck are movie Avengers supposed to do to Cass ?


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 24, 2013)

Stermor said:


> also crowley telekenisis sucks. hulk wouldn't even feel its effects.. also his mindfuck is totally useless in a fight.. aswell as his bfr..



Internal TK sucks?

How is mindfuck useless if they have zero resistance against it?


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## Stermor (Nov 24, 2013)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Internal TK sucks?
> 
> How is mindfuck useless if they have zero resistance against it?



because it takes to long and can be resisted by will.. something even the regular slob avengers have.... which makes it useless in a combat situation?? crowley has no instant mindrape.

and yes his tk i think at best broke a wall? not even sure if he did that much.. hulk and thor won't even feel that..


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## teddy (Nov 24, 2013)

Stermor said:


> because it takes to long and can be resisted by will.. something even the regular slob avengers have.... which makes it useless in a combat situation?? *crowley has no instant mindrape.*
> 
> and yes his tk i think at best broke a wall? not even sure if he did that much.. hulk and thor won't even feel that..



Based on what exactly? he didn't at all imply that scrubbing kevin's memory took time


not like he's needed here with cas to clean house, but still


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 24, 2013)

One of these can become intangible to take a body like say Thor or Hulk(not factoring some of his other H4X to take out the street level Avengers effortlessly), the other could take the team out by himself with all his H4X like time stop, teleportation, white light blasts(if nothing else this would kill out the street levels all at once) and what not.


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## Shoddragon (Nov 25, 2013)

Crowley takes control of Hulk and kills everybody .

Cas isn't even needed.


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## Gone (Nov 25, 2013)

Are we talking about the same Crowley who made an angel killing gun? You guys are seriously underestimating him here if you think Cas is the only one doing the stomping. The only one who could do jack to him is Thor, and he lacks feats. IMO Crowley BFRs himself right off the bat, and then takes his time figuring out how to kill them all.


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## teddy (Nov 25, 2013)

Not underestimating crowley personally. just saying he isn't even needed here

possession+mindfuck alone makes him a bitch to deal with considering the lack of feats the other side have to deal with it


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 25, 2013)

? said:


> possession+mindfuck alone makes him a bitch to deal with considering the lack of feats the other side have to deal with it



Dont forget internal TK and earthquakes


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## Ulti (Nov 25, 2013)

Unless base is referring to King of the Crossroads Crowley too


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## Gone (Nov 25, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> Unless base is referring to King of the Crossroads Crowley too



You mean the one who had Death's Scythe?


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## Ulti (Nov 25, 2013)

Oh shit yeah


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## Azzuri (Nov 25, 2013)

Does Thor get his movie feats?


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## Erjey (Nov 25, 2013)

Ok it's pretty much a win for the two bigs..What about the avengers? (not the ones in the movie)


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 25, 2013)

Which Avengers?The comics or games or some cartoon version?Comics pretty much stomp these two horribly, others depends on the version.


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## Gone (Nov 25, 2013)

Comic Avengers have versions of characters that could solo Supernatural, sans maybe God.


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## Stermor (Nov 26, 2013)

? said:


> Based on what exactly? he didn't at all imply that scrubbing kevin's memory took time
> 
> 
> not like he's needed here with cas to clean house, but still



he didn't even imply he did it himself.. or something did it for him.. we have no idee how he did it.. and really if he was so good at mind raping he required actors to even get some info from kevin.. lol  crowley has no viable mind rape aviable in combat.. 

his telekenisis best feat is flinging sam and dean against a tree and keeping them there.. or maybe braking wood.. it won't stop the more powerful avengers.. 

crowley in combat with the avengers is a non issue.. maybe with some prep he could do something but really he will get a mollnir to the face and be done.. btw wouldn't mollnir just work like the demon killing knife? beeing a godly weapon?? in supernatural it can kill gods btw 

and ye cas could beat the avengers,  since the lack to feats to defend against several of his ability's..  but again crowley is a non issue..


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## Gone (Nov 26, 2013)

Stermor said:


> he didn't even imply he did it himself.. or something did it for him.. we have no idee how he did it.. and really if he was so good at mind raping he required actors to even get some info from kevin.. lol  crowley has no viable mind rape aviable in combat..
> 
> his telekenisis best feat is flinging sam and dean against a tree and keeping them there.. or maybe braking wood.. it won't stop the more powerful avengers..
> 
> ...



Supernatural Miljoner =/= Avengers Miljoner. And pagan Gods can also be killed by pieces of wood, so I don't really know what the point of mentioning that is.

He either BFRs himself at the start of the fight and picks them all off one by one, or possesses the Hulk and beats everyone else to death. Thor is the only one here who is even a question. All the humans he can kill easily, except the Hulk, and he can just kill Banner in his sleep or something. He has possessed at different times, the Colt, Death's Scythe, and an angel killing Luger. He absolutely has what it takes to kill Thor. Movie Miljoner doesn't have the feats to say it can kill Crowley


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 26, 2013)

> crowley in combat with the avengers is a non issue..



He's pathetically underwhelming to Hulk, Thor and maybe Ironman but his H4X could literally kill any of them, won't get to do it to those three however but destroying his vessel just means he becomes intangible which they can't hurt then he takes over Hulk or Thor, preferably the latter for his AOE/weather powers. He can manhandle the street levels, does'nt have to fear dying and can jack any of their bodies which means he could solo the team himself.



> *He has possessed at different times, the Colt, Death's Scythe, and an angel killing Luger*. Movie Miljoner doesn't have the feats to say it can kill Crowley



None of which are standard equipment and the bullets melted from angel blades is a prep feat. This is like saying that in a Doctor Doom thread it's viable to mention some of the powers he's stolen considering he's done so a lot over decades, those stolen powers are no more useable in a standard thread than weapons Crowley acquired through various means for short durations(outside the Colt, he had that given to him in S3 and kept it till S5).

EDIT Angel Blade was standard equipment by S8 however before he melted it so there is that to use. Colt was in his desk and not something he carried but the Angel Blade is something he always carried with him like when he killed of the Reaper Ajay.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 26, 2013)

> btw wouldn't mollnir just work like the demon killing knife? beeing a godly weapon?? in supernatural it can kill gods btw



No because that's not how equivalence works, SPN Mjolnir is not MCU Mjolnir or Mjolnir from any other work. But sure, it killed a featless god who was tangible and not something MCU Mjolnir could'nt do but it won't work like the demon killing knife that hurts intangibles.

Crowley can solo for the fact he can become intangible and jack bodies, the street levels are'nt a threat to him considering an elite black eyes demon blocked a bullet and Wendigo's speed. 

Castiel could solo Crowley and the MCU Avengers ganging up on him even before his Seraph upgrade. Thread is'nt going to go any other way if only due to him being able to take this with hilarious ease.

Crowley's mind bending powers are dubious, he's needed to torture people for info(we can forgive this as a CIS for sadism) or black mail them(we'll forgive this because it's the Winchesters) or in Kevin's case use actors. Him being able to erase memories is possible considering King of Hell Azazel could do that but it's doubtful he can use it in a combat setting, atleast get close enough to Thor/Hulk or Ironman in flight. Street levels are possible.

In the end it's his body jacking powers that will give it to him, his other H4X will do fine for street levels like TK all three at once and killing them. Castiel is also there if Crowley can't solo(he can), arguing over his dubious advantage via telepathy is'nt needed but people are welcome to that I suppose, just adds another way he could solo or not. He is'nt even needed here, he could sip tea while watching Castiel clean house and making innuendos.


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## Gone (Nov 26, 2013)

@TF, I was just trying to make a point. Really, his ability to possess and the inability of any of them to kill him is enough to give him the win here.

EDIT: And gimmi a break, it's not like people don't mention Batman using a Green lantern ring in every thread he gets put in


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 26, 2013)

You mean threads that involve prep?


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## Ulti (Nov 26, 2013)

iirc in 8x07, 8x10, 9x02 crowley flat out says he gets off on torturing people so it is in character for him. as for the winchesters they do have massive mindfuck resistance + willpower which helps them overcome it, whether the avengers can do the same idk.

as for mind shit:

- made tommy believe a wendigo was after him, before making his head explode in 8x22
- in 8x19, he makes kevin hallucinate that his arms and legs have been hacked off among pestering him in his head, i think it was confirmed crowley was fucking with his head and it wasn't kevin flipping out as for one, kevin was captured and in 9x02 crowley references it numerous times
- in 8x21, he does scrub kevins memories numerous times and he does say that *he* was the one who did it.



> CROWLEY So, it's three trials. Three trials and the Winchesters get to lock the door on me. Ha! [to DEMON #1] You. Fake Sam. If you're gonna tip our hand, *I'll have to scrub Kevin's short-term memory again*. And that's risky, so watch the patois in there.





Edit: Also what would mindraping Kevin do? Kevin didn't know what the third trial was at that point and Crowley still needed him to translate the angel tablet and stuff. Crowley even wanted Kevin to translate the bit on the Demon tablet that gives him more power and open up all the hell gates.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 26, 2013)

Thought the Tommy thing like others was him using enchantments and hexes in that episode?Hence why the Winchesters were looking for a hex bag?If not then fair enough. Mindwiping feat was'nt really doubted by me but rather can he do it in battle?. Does he just gesture or think or have to make contact like a simple tap?i.e how does he do it?

Still the Kevin one is fair and useable here.



> iirc in 8x07, 8x10, 9x02 crowley flat out says he gets off on torturing people so it is in character for him. as for the winchesters they do have massive mindfuck resistance + willpower which helps them overcome it, *whether the avengers can do the same idk*




They're featless in resisting such and only instance it's used in the Avengers movie, it works so...they've get controlled by any decent use of such including Crowley. I don't hold it against Crowley for not working against the Winchesters or wanting to torture people as said in my original post on that(#25)



> *Also what would mindraping Kevin do?* Kevin didn't know what the third trial was at that point and Crowley still needed him to translate the angel tablet and stuff. Crowley even wanted Kevin to translate the bit on the Demon tablet that gives him more power and open up all the hell gates



Make him comply more easily instead of holding his mother hostage or going through an elaborate ruse involving a special dimension and some actors to screw with his mind to break down his will and trick him into doing the tablet translation for him?Could have just mindraped him from the start or done it later after he found him while keeping him hidden from the Winchesters?.

Still regardless of whatever reason be it some kind of CIS or PIS reason or perhaps lacking the ability to enslave people telepathically(which does not discount his other telepathy) or Kevin's possible willpower to being controlled but easier to be trolled with illusions/sense manipulation or memory wipe, Crowley has shown some offensive telepathic powers like memory wiping and his ability to screw with people's senses(Kevin and the Wendigo feat which I forgot till this thread) so he can use them. 

Maybe not the memory wipe due to circumstances of that being unknown(if not correct me on my mistake) but he trolled Kevin from far and that one victim with the Wendigo as well from quite a distance so it clearly requires no physical contact or gesture(even if it required the latter it would be useable in a fight).

So yeah he could use that sense manipulation to make them think they were him and fight each other without lifting a finger if body jacking bores him as a strategy.

EDIT Out of curiousity have we seen any demon bend someone's will i.e enslave them?If so then that could be scaled to Crowley if it's something lower than him.


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## Ulti (Nov 26, 2013)

> Thought the Tommy thing like others was him using enchantments and hexes in that episode? Hence why the Winchesters were looking for a hex bag?If not then fair enough.



The only person we know he hexed was Sarah, he shoved Jenny in the oven. IIRC the thing about the hex is that the Winchesters did not expect Crowley to pull that move at all.



> Mindwiping feat was'nt really doubted by me but rather can he do it in battle?. Does he just gesture or think or have to make contact like a simple tap?i.e how does he do it?



I don't think we see, so fair point there.



> Make him comply more easily instead of holding his mother hostage or going through an elaborate ruse involving a special dimension and some actors to screw with his mind to break down his will and trick him into doing the tablet translation for him?Could have just mindraped him from the start or done it later after he found him while keeping him hidden from the Winchesters?.
> 
> Still regardless of whatever reason be it some kind of CIS or PIS reason or perhaps lacking the ability to enslave people telepathically(which does not discount his other telepathy) or Kevin's possible willpower to being controlled but easier to be trolled with illusions/sense manipulation or memory wipe, Crowley has shown some offensive telepathic powers like memory wiping and his ability to screw with people's senses(Kevin and the Wendigo feat which I forgot till this thread) so he can use them.



It must be CIS then, though the thing is Crowley was kind of mindfucking Kevin with memory erasure but even then Kevin figured out what was going on and masterminded that plot to trick Crowley. On an unrelated note, Kevin is arguably one of the most intelligent characters in SPN 



> EDIT Out of curiousity have we seen any demon bend someone's will i.e enslave them?If so then that could be scaled to Crowley if it's something lower than him.



Come to think of it, I don't remember an instance.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 26, 2013)

Alright on those.



> On an unrelated note, Kevin is arguably one of the most intelligent characters in SPN



Yeah S8 shows he took a level in badass for a while atleast, we need more of that.


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## Mexikorn (Nov 26, 2013)

I didn't read yet, but shouldn't that be a babyshake? In favor of team 1 ofc.


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## Banhammer (Nov 26, 2013)

Holy shit, unholy rape


Angel Blade to Thor, possess Tony Stark, kill Natasha and Barton, teleport hulk to the moon, then drop a castle on Captain America


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## Mexikorn (Nov 26, 2013)

Tranquil Fury said:


> One of these can become intangible to take a body like say Thor or Hulk(not factoring some of his other H4X to take out the street level Avengers effortlessly), the other could take the team out by himself with all his H4X like time stop, teleportation, white light blasts(if nothing else this would kill out the street levels all at once) and what not.



no way they posses hulk, barely even thor
they arguably lack hax but their durability, especially hulks + regen is to much for them to get obsessed


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## Ulti (Nov 26, 2013)

Since when does durability and regen help against possession? It's a broken power for a reason.

Though I guess Hulk may be able to resist it as he has hulk's and banners mind, swimming around. Azazel while in Crowley's rank had no trouble possessing a reaper on the other hand.


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## Mexikorn (Nov 26, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> Since when does durability and regen help against possession? It's a broken power for a reason.
> 
> Though I guess Hulk may be able to resist it as he has hulk's and banners mind, swimming around. Azazel while in Crowley's rank had no trouble possessing a reaper on the other hand.



Hulk is Hulk. In the first movie his father (absorbing man?) had trouble absorbing him because of that anger management thingy. I don't think entering Hulk's mind is easy as that. Castiel never entered the mind of a HULK. Just regular humans. theres a big difference. 

And for Thor, similar thing. He may not be a hulk but he's no human either, a "god" to be exact.


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## Ulti (Nov 26, 2013)

I don't think that movie is canon to the MCU. Also Hulk does not have the feats to contend with castiel mentally, who has been in a mental battle vs 30-40 million souls and allowed people to recall memories from erased timelines as a seraph, he is also able to directly invade minds. Hulk has nothing on that. Though he needs consent to possess and he doesn't need to, so that's meaningless.

God is just a title, bring feats.


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## Gone (Nov 26, 2013)

I like how Odin explicitly says in the new movie "We are not Gods" and people are still swinging Thor's "god" title around like it means something. If he hasn't shown resistance, you can't just assume that he has it.


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## Mexikorn (Nov 26, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> I don't think that movie is canon to the MCU. Also Hulk does not have the feats to contend with castiel mentally, who has been in a mental battle vs 30-40 million souls and allowed people to recall memories from erased timelines. Hulk has nothing on that.
> 
> God is just a title, bring feats.



I didn't say god. I've said "god". Don't know why marvel insists on calling them "gods" when there are so much so much more powerful fuckers. 

You're somewhat right with that castiel thing though. Then again, I wonder how good he would be with only containing (some) leviathans. Since it was not (only) the sheer amount of souls he carried, but mainly the leviathans. Then again I wonder how good of a matchup hulk vs leviathan would be since leviathans are angelkillers... So much questions


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## Ulti (Nov 26, 2013)

The leviathans won because Castiel was slowly deteriorating for days, chipping away at him. They picked up the scraps.

Hulk would smash a leviathan, Hulk is physically stronger, they have no hax to speak of and the only reason they could kill angels was because they could negate their powers. Kind of a rock, paper scissors deal.


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## Poxbox (Nov 26, 2013)

Mexikorn said:


> Then again I wonder how good of a matchup hulk vs leviathan would be since leviathans are angelkillers... So much questions


Not a very good one. Aside from no-selling or disabling angel powers they were just shapeshifters with good regen.


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## teddy (Nov 26, 2013)

Stermor said:


> he didn't even imply he did it himself..or something did it for him.. we have no idee how he did it..



Irrelevant details that don't mean shit as far as occam's razor is concerned. and he outright said he did it himself



> and really if he was so good at mind raping he required actors to even get some info from kevin.. lol  crowley has no viable mind rape aviable in combat..



using a moment of pis/cis won't help your case here


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## Mexikorn (Nov 26, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> The leviathans won because Castiel was slowly deteriorating for days, chipping away at him. They picked up the scraps.
> 
> Hulk would smash a leviathan, Hulk is physically stronger, they have no hax to speak of and the only reason they could kill angels was because they could negate their powers. Kind of a rock, paper scissors deal.



So you say normal Castiel > any other angel of equal rank? And also normal Castiel > 1 normal Leviathan even though they are angel counters? Or do I just not get what you're trying to say.


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## Ulti (Nov 26, 2013)

Normal Castiel was above Hester and Inias, only answering to Anna who was in charge of the garrison watching over Earth. But that's not all as Cas can make up in loss of powers with his strategy and he's a damn good fighter unlike most of the angels who rely on their powers.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 27, 2013)

The outcome of this matchup depends on the following factors:

- Is Cas reactions "only" single-digit hypersonic? Mjolnir is in the triple-digits now
- Can planet-level Mjolnir bypass intagnability?

If yes to both, Thor would solo


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## Gone (Nov 27, 2013)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> The outcome of this matchup depends on the following factors:
> 
> - Is Cas reactions "only" single-digit hypersonic? Mjolnir is in the triple-digits now
> - Can* planet-level* Mjolnir bypass intagnability?
> ...



Exqueeze me?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 27, 2013)

Aether = eventually universe level

Mjolnir beat Malekith with Aether

obv universe-level Mjolnir


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 27, 2013)

He broke through the Bifrost Bridge which channels energies capable of busting planets

Its valid, deal with it


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## Gone (Nov 27, 2013)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> He broke through the Bifrost Bridge which channels energies capable of busting planets
> 
> Its valid, deal with it







Fluttershy said:


> Aether = eventually universe level
> 
> Mjolnir beat Malekith with Aether
> 
> obv universe-level Mjolnir



And it still couldn't bust Cap's shield. Dat Vibranium...

I guess we have to start considering X-Wing torpedoes planet busting, since they destroyed the Death Star


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 27, 2013)

Again, its legit

Heck, might aswell update his wikiprofile since its outdated on the speedpart anyway


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 27, 2013)

but the Bifrost only is planet level in energy DC, so to speak

it only shoots that energy, it was never hit by that energy itself, so why would it have that kind of durability ? 


also, is the energy beam used to transport them the same kind that can planet-bust ? or they gotta amp the output for that ?


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## Gone (Nov 27, 2013)

Not buying it for several reasons. First of all, fictional "magic" energy rarely works in the same way that kinetic energy does, so you can't really say that the level of energy required to destroy a magic item, is greater than the energy that the item can contain or transfer. Especially since we don't know how the Bifrost transfers the energy, or how and why it destroys the planet. Also given the mixture of magic and tech that we see the movie Asgardians use. There's also the fact that the energy being sent along the Bifrost is spread along the bridge, and it takes time to accumulate enough to destroy the planet.

By that logic, characters like Zuko and Rainbow Dash are relativistic since they can dodge lightning bolts. Except they're not, because we accept that not all fictional lightning moves at the speed of lightning, and assigning feats like this would be an absurd outlier. Even if that calc regarding the Bifrost was legit (which it's not) it's still way out of touch with everything else we've seen him do with the hammer.

Tell me, does the Kursed monster have planet busting punches because it slapped the hammer out of the way when Thor chucked it at him?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 27, 2013)

> Except they're not, because we accept that not all fictional lightning moves at the speed of light


wait, you think real life lightning moves at the speed of light ?


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## Gone (Nov 27, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> wait, you think real life lightning moves at the speed of light ?



Speed of lightning* leave me alone it's late. You get my point though, right?


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 27, 2013)

> Not buying it for several reasons. First of all, fictional "magic" energy rarely works in the same way that kinetic energy does, so you can't really say that the level of energy required to destroy a magic item



Are you going to go down this route?It's not real magic, the movie makes it clear they're just really advanced aliens(you know they use an actual wormhole to transport stuff), yes I saw the double quotation around magic but won't change what you're trying to argue and even if it was actual magic, the amount of energy to destroy something is the same. So Bifrost whatever energy it uses can generate enough joules  to destroy a planet.

If you want to argue that it's an outlier(I'll agree with this due to it not matching his personal showings) that's fine.

In theory Bifrost should be durable enough to withstand such energy and breaking it would require to generate greater but I suppose it may not be so when matching it upto his personal showings, so either the latter is true or it's an outlier.

He took hits from Malekith's Aether but it's clear Malekith could charge greater shots, Thor tricks him into wasting time to charge a big ball to capitalise once. We don't know how much energy per shot Malekith was generating.

To be fair, Odin states Mjolnir was forged in the heart of a dying star in the Thor 1 movie and he does send Thor to Earth under his own power using dark energy per the comic tie ins(it weakens him as Loki mentions in the Avengers movie however) coupled with Heimdall being able to see and hear things across lightyears(he states he can see trillions of souls in Thor 2) so there are some nice feats in both movies including Mjolnir's massively hypersonic feat and the Aether being a potential universal threat. But whether Thor is really planet level or not for the bridge feat is harder to say, his personal showings don't match but he obviously can't do that in every appearance either so hard to say.


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## Poxbox (Nov 27, 2013)

There is a very obvious reason (at least to me) to dismiss the Bifrost busting feat:
The Bifrost was already channeling (accumulating to be more precise) planet busting energy at the time. So Thor only had to use force above whatever durability the Bifrost has beyond planet busting (assuming the Bifrost even has that kind of durability).


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## Punchsplosion (Nov 27, 2013)

Poxbox said:


> There is a very obvious reason (at least to me) to dismiss the Bifrost busting feat:
> The Bifrost was already channeling (accumulating to be more precise) planet busting energy at the time. So Thor only had to use force above whatever durability the Bifrost has beyond planet busting (assuming the Bifrost even has that kind of durability).



This.  Additionally, the "destroying" Jotunheim quote seems pretty open-ended in its interpretation.  Wiping out all life on the world or making it completely uninhabitable would constitute destruction of the planet (at least for the Frost Giants).  I don't see why would we apply planet-busting capabilities to the Bifrost without seeing it literally one-shot a world.

Poxbox's explanation of the reason why the bridge shattered stands to reason more so than any claims of Thor being able to bust a planet with Mjlonir when his capabilities in the movies aren't even close to that in the three titles he has been in.


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## Punchsplosion (Nov 27, 2013)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Are you going to go down this route?It's not real magic, the movie makes it clear they're just really advanced aliens(you know they use an actual wormhole to transport stuff), yes I saw the double quotation around magic but won't change what you're trying to argue and even if it was actual magic, the amount of energy to destroy something is the same. So Bifrost whatever energy it uses can generate enough joules  to destroy a planet.
> 
> If you want to argue that it's an outlier(I'll agree with this due to it not matching his personal showings) that's fine.
> 
> ...



I call BS on the whole "not real magic" thing and it just being technological marvels.

Thor explains that Asgardian wonders are a combination of magic and science when talking to Jane Foster.

Loki uses magical illusions.

Odin straight up worthiness enchants the shit out of Thor's hammer.

There is an obvious melding of the two, science and magic, in the Asgardian ways of doing things.

Bifrost might or might not be a product of it.  However, don't say that it isn't at least possible TF.


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## Gone (Nov 27, 2013)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Are you going to go down this route?It's not real magic, the movie makes it clear they're just really advanced aliens(you know they use an actual wormhole to transport stuff), yes I saw the double quotation around magic but won't change what you're trying to argue



I said later in my post that Asgardians use a kind of magic/tech whatever you want to call it, it doesn't change. The logic behind this is still bullshit because whatever it is they use, a lot of their tech is clearly beyond out current understanding. And for the record, it was clearly stated that Loki used magic to shield himself from Heimdall's gaze, so they do have it.

That's not even the argument I'm trying to make though, just something I'm pointing out. The logic behind this "calc" is just bullshit, and that's the crux of my argument. First of all, as I said, we don't really know how the Bifrost destroys a planet, and even if it did do so just by blasting it with that much raw energy, that doesn't mean that an item capable of transferring that kind of energy in some kind of raw form, would be able to withstand any amount of energy up to that much, before it broke. If that were the case we wouldn't have any glass canons in these debates. Fictional "raw energy" that appears in some kind of bullshit light form, rarely is shown to act in the same manner as potential energy does in real physics.

There is also the simple fact that complex machines don't necessarily act in the same way as simple ones do when transferring what most people think of as energy. Lets say an electric cable is powering a jackhammer, and I cut that cable with a pair of scissors. That doesn't make my scissors capable of busting through concrete.

Something else I wanna point out.



> Destroying something means imparting enough energy into an object until it breaks. Most of the time that's kinetic energy.
> 
> Meaning Thor inserted enough energy into Bifrost that it breaks.
> 
> The same Bifrost that has no problem handling planet busting energies.



This argument only applies to objects capable of storing and putting out certain degrees of kinetic energy relative to a position in space (ie, a hammer, or a bow). In other words, an object that is itself, the source of the energy. The Bifrost bridge that Thor smashed was transferring energy from the machine that was putting out out. The same rules don't apply. See again my example about a power cable.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 28, 2013)

Planet busting Thor is of course quite bullshit.

I don't care about whether or not Bifrost can though.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 28, 2013)

stahp downplaying Dartg


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## Sherlōck (Nov 28, 2013)

Can't wait to see the movie.Wondering when it will be availabe in my country.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 28, 2013)

Isshō said:


> Can't wait to see the movie.Wondering when it will be availabe in my country.



Most countries in your region already had it

Whats taking you fuckers so long


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## Sherlōck (Nov 28, 2013)

Where do you think I am from BLS?


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## Sherlōck (Nov 28, 2013)

Why did you think that?


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 28, 2013)

Some of your earlier posts gave that impression


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## Sherlōck (Nov 28, 2013)

Nah,I live right next to India [Not Pakistan].

Anyway in India the movie released in 15 November.Movie theaters have started advertising it here.So hoping very soon.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 28, 2013)

Isshō said:


> Nah,I live right next to India [Not Pakistan].
> 
> Anyway in India the movie released in 15 November.Movie theaters have started advertising it here.So hoping very soon.



Better luck than Japan

February


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## Sherlōck (Nov 28, 2013)

I was really surprised to see the realese date in Japan.1st February is still a long way to go.


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## Saint Saga (Nov 28, 2013)

Probably because japan dubs their movies.


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## Erjey (Nov 28, 2013)

So after all is a win for cas and crowley?


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 28, 2013)

Alright, time to pass on some quotes:

[18:36:45] gunsquall8: its kinda hard to ignore a situation that was happening ON SCREEN
[18:37:11] Black Leg Sanji: pretty much
[18:37:49] Roman CoolWorld: I need to rewatch thor again
[18:37:55] gunsquall8: covering your eyes and ears and going "LALALA NEVER HAPPENED, ALL BULLSHIT" doesnt really change that Thor pretty much pounded through the Bifrost
[18:37:59] Roman CoolWorld: mainly in prep for the new movie
[18:38:12] Black Leg Sanji: good choice
[18:38:22] Black Leg Sanji: watched it twice myself, been a few months since the 2nd watch though
[18:38:28] gunsquall8: Loki can tank hits from Thor and exhange blows with him
[18:38:54] gunsquall8: I mean its not exactly out of place with Thor
[18:38:59] Black Leg Sanji: thats the thing
[18:39:08] Black Leg Sanji: cosmic marvel phase hasnt started yet
[18:39:18] Black Leg Sanji: also, mjolnir was forged from a dying star..
[18:39:26] gunsquall8: Odin's own words
[18:39:35] Neisan Qinglong: [18:38] gunsquall8: 

<<<  "LALALA NEVER HAPPENED, ALL BULLSHIT"so what LM does daily
[18:39:43] Neisan Qinglong: it's like a pattern
[18:39:55] Neisan Qinglong: "I don't like on screen feats, so they didn't happen"
[18:42:02] gunsquall8: >the Bifrost drilling Jotunheim harder than Cubey's mom during the Gegeru
>Bifrost was gonna destroy it
>Thor pounds through a vessel that was channeling planet busting energies
>bullshit
[18:42:11] Black Leg Sanji: hahaha
[18:42:28] gunsquall8: the movie >>> your bullshit


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 28, 2013)

the feat is for Bifrost alone


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## Gone (Nov 28, 2013)

Are we still arguing about the Bifrost feat? The Bifrost isn't the type of machine that uses potential kinetic energy to perform an action. It's transferring energy, like a power line. It's durability isn't linked to in any way to how much accumulating energy it can transfer.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 28, 2013)

Yuriko Omega
Yuriko Omega

[20:11:24] Wodan Ymir: obviously the bridge was made of exploding glass
[20:11:31] Roman CoolWorld: candy glass
[20:11:33] Wodan Ymir: it's made out of the tanks in the safety video
[20:11:52] Roman CoolWorld: Bridge Safety
[20:11:54] gunsquall8: might also want to include the scene of the bifrost fucking up Jotunheim
[20:12:23] Wodan Ymir: I find it hilarious
[20:12:33] Roman CoolWorld: okay, that's gonna require my rewatch then. And a seperate vid
[20:12:36] Wodan Ymir: that the scene even includes a fckhuge discharge of energy
[20:12:54] Wodan Ymir: which thor and loki no sell
[20:12:58] Wodan Ymir: >totally didn't happen
[20:13:02] Wodan Ymir: >mere wall level
[20:16:31] Wodan Ymir: >durability isn't linked to how much energy it can transfer
[20:16:35] gunsquall8: >breaks bridge
>power surge from the bridge
[20:16:38] Wodan Ymir: >Thor blows up the bridge
[20:16:40] gunsquall8: >no sells
[20:16:46] Wodan Ymir: >Bifrost Explodes to shit
[20:17:02] Wodan Ymir: >not linked
[20:17:06] Wodan Ymir: >Ok then.jpg


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 28, 2013)

someone's mad 



although the energy to push back all that water can be calced and would provide a minimum value 

someone should calc it


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 28, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> someone's mad



Nope, just dumbfounded at ODC


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## Punchsplosion (Nov 28, 2013)

Even if we accept that the Bifrost (machine) is channeling planet busting energy (which it didn't destroy its target), then the logic follows as such.

Object is essentially a power cord for a technological device.

The rainbow bridge channels energy that eventually (potentially) could reach planet busting levels from the machine itself.

Power cords don't need a durability readout equal to amount of energy that the device can eventually put out if the object has other support.

The actual Bifrost machine is attached to the side of Asgard nullifying the need for the rainbow bridge to have anywhere close to mentioned damage soak.

Therefore, the bridge only needs to have the durability to channel the energy that it is pumping through.

The explosion of energy gives us the amount of energy it is channeling at any given time.

Rainbow bridges durability is an unquantifiable amount more than then energy release.

Since it was already in the process of channeling its durablity, whatever extra Thor puts out just has to be the difference between the energy output and the durability.

That sounds pretty cut and dry.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 28, 2013)

some people must *really* like Thor


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Nov 28, 2013)

>That coming from someone who made a twitter account just to Word of God shit
>This thread's level of Autism

Forever ODC


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 29, 2013)

facts:

1. Bifrost was obviously going to destroy the planet over time, this is clear from the visuals, so the amount of energy it has to channel is already reduced massively.

2. Thor did not destroy Bifrost in one hit, so the amount of energy he has to impart is even less than whatever Bifrosts durability is.

3. Bifrost's ability to channel energies which will over time destroy a planet has absolutely jack shit to do with it's durability.

Movie Thor is not a planet buster. He cannot tank planet busting levels of energy and neither can Loki.

*IF* they could do as such then why even have the Cannon thing Loki was using to perform said planet bust in the first place? Might as well send any random Asgardian to go blow it up.


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## Gone (Nov 29, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> 3. Bifrost's ability to channel energies which will over time destroy a planet has absolutely jack shit to do with it's durability.



This should pretty much end the debate right here. The rest of the arguments, the Bifrost channeling energy over time, the Bifrost being full to capacity with energy when being struck, and Thor striking it multiple times, aren't even needed when the whole premise of the Thor being a planet buster feat is complete shit.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> facts:
> 
> 1. Bifrost was obviously going to destroy the planet over time, this is clear from the visuals, so the amount of energy it has to channel is already reduced massively.
> 
> ...


you're making too much sense Dartg


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 29, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> *IF* they could do as such then why even have the Cannon thing Loki was using to perform said planet bust in the first place? Might as well send any random Asgardian to go blow it up.



same reason why Sephiroth needed Meteor even though he had the power to hold off Holy

and implying a random Asgardian would be as powerful as Thor


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 29, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> facts:
> 
> 1. Bifrost was obviously going to destroy the planet over time, this is clear from the visuals, so the amount of energy it has to channel is already reduced massively.
> 
> ...



Escaping from the hivemind? Thats a first

For how long can you hide though


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## Sherlōck (Nov 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> although the energy to push back all that water can be calced and would provide a minimum value



It was a explosion hardly 100 meter in diameter.Even if it had same energy as a nuke it wouldn't be impressive at all.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 29, 2013)

Just re-watched that part. After a through calc you might get island to low country level energy, the result would be still high end.

Though I doubt anyone has time to do it thoughly.It will take a lot of time.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

> you might get island to low country level energy


for the water pushing explosion ?


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## Sherlōck (Nov 29, 2013)

Nah,destroying that bridge. 

If I am getting it correct the bridge is supplying the energy.If you think the energy was generated in a uniform way then you can find how much energy it was providing per second. Then use the whole bridge & use SA method to determine the amount of energy its providing m^2/second. Next use Thors hammer surface area & calc the amount of bridge volume he destroyed.That would be the energy I think.

Though we have no way to know how long it would take to destroy the planet.I saw up to 4 minutes & the planet still wasn't destroyed.So the result will be high end anyway.

As I have said lot of work.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

> That would be the energy I think.


it wouldn't be Thors or Mjolnirs energy


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## Sherlōck (Nov 29, 2013)

Yes that would be the energy the rainbow bridge can withstand without any damage.So it can be used as Thors energy since he actually damaged it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

the bridge doesn't have to tank any energy, its just "shoots" it from wherever it is coming from 

+ 





> The Bifrost was already channeling (accumulating to be more precise) planet busting energy at the time. So Thor only had to use force above whatever durability the Bifrost has beyond planet busting (assuming the Bifrost even has that kind of durability).





anyway, calc the damage to Jotunheim over time if you can


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## Sherlōck (Nov 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> anyway, calc the damage to Jotunheim over time if you can


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 29, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Spoiler for Thor 2, but i guess you'll click it since you might calc it Dastan_ 



Does anyone know how big the spaceship  that crashed into Bifrost was

From what i hear it didnt damage it at all and considering Thor did, well, might get something from there :hulos


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)




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## Sherlōck (Nov 29, 2013)

There are two speed feat I can calc,probably.



Black Leg Sanji said:


> *Spoiler*: _Spoiler for Thor 2, but i guess you'll click it since you might calc it Dastan_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not clicking it.


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## Dig (Nov 29, 2013)

Planet level or not...can't Castiel just BFR him (and the entire team) before he attack?


Also: What is the level of speed/reaction speed for *average *angels in Supernatural?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

> What is the level of speed/reaction speed for average angels in Supernatural?


any average no named angel is probably at least a bullet-timer and Castiel (as a Seraph IIRC) saved the brothers from a gas explosion after it went off - should be hypersonic


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## MAPSK (Nov 29, 2013)

Seraph Cas is quad digits hypersonic IIRC


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

maybe in MAPSK-land


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## Punchsplosion (Nov 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Seraph Cas is quad digits hypersonic IIRC



Do what say what now?


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## MAPSK (Nov 29, 2013)

Oh wait, my mistake. Looks like it's actually massively FTL+


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

> using the wiki as evidence
> MAPSK gonna MAPSK


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Seraph Cas is quad digits hypersonic IIRC



Judas calc? 

Its only over long distances though and not in battle 

Reaction speed is hypersonic+



MAPSK said:


> Oh wait, my mistake. Looks like it's actually massively FTL+



Um...., read the discussion on Annas profile

The guy who made the edit () had some ulterior motives

Besides, wiki cant be used as proof


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## Sherlōck (Nov 29, 2013)

And is Jotunheim really a planet? Cause according to Marvel official site Asgard is a flat bed with size of USA & Jotunheim is a flat ring-shaped realm with high mountains along its inner edge.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

Isshō said:


> And is Jotunheim really a planet? Cause according to Marvel official site Asgard is a flat bed with size of USA & Jotunheim is a flat ring-shaped realm with high mountains along its inner edge.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 29, 2013)

Seriously if its even as big as Asgard then belfrost's power is at best continent level.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

idk (the whatever damage from Bifrost is done over time anyway), but I had the impression that since the whole shit was in regular space that all the 9 realms were planets


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 29, 2013)

you should pay attention to that shit when you watch Thor 2


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 29, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> same reason why Sephiroth needed Meteor even though he had the power to hold off Holy
> 
> and implying a random Asgardian would be as powerful as Thor



I'm implying a random Asgardian is as physically powerful as Loki actually.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 30, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> idk (the whatever damage from Bifrost is done over time anyway),



Yeah.



> but I had the impression that since the whole shit was in regular space that all the 9 realms were planets



I had too.



Fluttershy said:


> you should pay attention to that shit when you watch Thor 2



Yes,To Natalie Portman.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 30, 2013)

> same reason why Sephiroth needed Meteor even though he had the power to hold off Holy



This one is'nt a fair comparison, he held back Holy through sheer willpower but did'nt have the offense power himself(it's like saying because you can will yourself back into existence means you can erase someone through the same willpower application), Meteor was to create a hole in the planet and allow him to enter the core to absorb the lifestream. He held back Holy enough so it would not completely destroy meteor but leave enough to do enough damage to not destroy Earth completely. In AC/ACC he tried to choke the lifestream with the J-cells of those infected with geostigma and take control of the planet's lifestream to his own power and use the planet as a vessel like his mother before him he claims, his motives probably changed here but lol AC could work as well. 

The Thor bifrost thing is'nt even similar to this considering that needed a build up of energy of the wormhole. In addition we've seen his personal power even with the hammer does not match up to that feat as per the rest of Thor 1, Thor 2 and Avengers. Maybe in Avengers 2, 3 and Thor 3 he'll do something similar.



> And is Jotunheim really a planet? Cause according to Marvel official site Asgard is a flat bed with size of USA & Jotunheim is a flat ring-shaped realm with high mountains along its inner edge



Yeah that's why the 9 realms add upto the universe as per Thor 2, Malekith was going to take the whole universe to darkness, he needed all 9 realms in the convergance which allowed him to take all of them at once, they're much bigger than just landscapes if he means to end the universe by taking them all out.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 30, 2013)

I think it was more like he needs a foothold in various locations to darken the universe.

And it just so happens that the 9 realms are sufficiently far from one another that by having them in allignment and teleporting the Aether around he can do that.


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## Kazu (Nov 30, 2013)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Judas calc?
> 
> Its only over long distances though and not in battle
> 
> Reaction speed is hypersonic+


Just curious, why is that?

And I'm guessing the profile speed is just bull.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 30, 2013)

That being said can we let this thread end, it's clear who wins this considering either could solo this team.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 30, 2013)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Yeah that's why the 9 realms add upto the universe as per Thor 2, Malekith was going to take the whole universe to darkness, he needed all 9 realms in the convergance which allowed him to take all of them at once, they're much bigger than just landscapes if he means to end the universe by taking them all out.



Haven't seen Thor 2 so.....

Anyway I think best course of action would be calcing its size from comics.It shouldn't be a problem.EM does all the comic calc & he probably has necessary scan to do it too. But he semi-retired from OBD & hasn't logged on in a long time.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 30, 2013)

Isshō said:


> Yes,To Natalie Portman.


Sif > Jane Foster


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 30, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Just curious, why is that?



Because his combat/attack speed has never shown to be anything more than peak to superhuman


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## Sherlōck (Nov 30, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> Sif > Jane Foster


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 30, 2013)




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## Shoddragon (Dec 1, 2013)

Shoddragon said:


> Crowley takes control of Hulk and kills everybody .
> 
> Cas isn't even needed.



how the thread got beyond this confuses me tbh.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 1, 2013)

implying MCU Hulk is able to kill MCU Thor


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## Gone (Dec 1, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> implying MCU Hulk is able to kill MCU Thor



Just because he's clearly able to doesn't mean he would succeed in doing so in a fight.



Black Leg Sanji said:


>



Darcy takes her jacket off and stomps them both.


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