# Kisame vs Sasori



## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 27, 2020)

Battlefield: Desert.
Distance: 5 m.
Mindset: IC.
Restrictions: None.
Knowledge: Reputation only.


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## Danisor (Jul 27, 2020)

Reputation only? Sasori can just poison Kisame or the water and it's a GG.Then again, it could be washed off... I'm leaning towards Sasori.


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## deltaniner (Jul 27, 2020)

Bad match up for Kisame. The poison is what seals this in Sasori's favor. Overall Kisame is stronger, but Sasori's poison wins him the match.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

Sasori would win with or without knowledge 
Type advantage I feel kisame isn’t a careful fighter by design
Yet sasori only needs a scratch 

Drowning won’t work as sasori doesn’t breathe 
Daikodan is featless so don’t know what sort of damage it’s going to do a regular shark bomb can be tanked by base gai with zero damage

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludi (Jul 27, 2020)

Feels like one of the worst match ups for kIsame vs akatsuki. Can see Sasori take this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi of the Leaf (Jul 27, 2020)

Sasori stomps kisame like an ant  .


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 27, 2020)

KISAMEHAAMEHAAA GG.
Kisame won't fuck around with Sasori just based on rep. He'll go balls deep from the get go.
Kisame bull dozes sasuke and his poison before they take effect. His suitors wash them off and we don't know how well Sasori and his puppets perform if submerged. Kisame has enough Chakra to match his puppets with sharks and then some.
And daikodan would just pulverize Sasori with blunt force alone. And once In the water dome and fused, the Chakra strings are like free cables to feed off of. Kisame drains him and then blasts him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Jul 27, 2020)

Could go either way I see them along with Kakuzu as top of the mid tier Akatsuki


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## deltaniner (Jul 27, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Could go either way I see them along with Kakuzu as top of the mid tier Akatsuki


Who are the mid-tier Akatsuki to you?


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## Shazam (Jul 27, 2020)

deltaniner said:


> Who are the mid-tier Akatsuki to you?




Kisame
Kakuzu
Deidara
Sasori 
Konan (to some extent)


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## Draco Bolton (Jul 27, 2020)

Kisame can eventually destroy Hiruko before getting scratched (he was scratched by Asuma in P1. But in P2 he dodged Bee first raiton pencil attack).

Once Third puppet and Satetsu Shigure are out Kisame is screwed. Third abilities+potential Sasori chakra shield (I know it's a little shield) will help him against big Suiton.

Samehada won't erase poison from body.

Sasori mid diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## cry77 (Jul 27, 2020)

Sasori is overall weaker, but has a favorable match up here with his poison.

Sasori wins very high diff.


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## Charmed (Jul 27, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Kisame can eventually destroy Hiruko before getting scratched (he was scratched by Asuma in P1. But in P2 he dodged Bee first raiton pencil attack).


No, I don't think so. 
1. He needs to land a hit on Hiruko, but he has no way to trick Sasori and Immobilize Hiruko (he does have the raw strength to break it tho).

2. Kisame should be able to block Hiruko's first needles with Sammy... 
but... it'll be impossible for him to dodge the second round, which is omnidirectional.

Why? Cuz, he's always been scratched in all his battles (by asuma, by that guy on turtle Island, by Gai, and by Bee's Pencil).
You could argue Bee's pencil is faster than Sasori's needles, but it's much easier to block cuz it's only 1 pencil. 
Hiruko throws hundreds of needles from all angles at once and the senbons are harder to see than a pencil imbued with Raiton.

So I'm pretty sure Kisame will get poisoned by that attack.

Sasori solos with Hiruko.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Jul 27, 2020)

You can't really rank Kisame above Sasori, when you think Sasori can either:


solo with Hiruko's omnidirectional poisoned needles.
solo with poisoned satetsu which will poison Kisame's waterdome with gallons of deadly poison.
solo with Jiton; he magnetizes Kisame once he touches the IS turning him into an easy target.
solo with 100 Puppets (but Sasori still has 200 more...).

Then you guys should consider that:


Kisame's brute strength gets hardcountered by poisoned Satetsu (he hits it, he gets poisoned) or Chakra Shields.
Sasori outranges Kisame.
Sasori can fly either with propellers or an Iron Sand platform.
Kisame has biju amounts of chakra, but Sasori never gets tired. Kisame said he was tired after sealing Shukaku for 3 days, Sasori was fine; he then had the longest fight in the manga (he still holds the record iirc). In Boruto, Shukaku states that the puppet jutsu is very chakra taxing (Sasori could manipulate more than a hundred puppets at once, easy).
In Boruto era, it's common knowledge that the 7SOTM (together) have the power to destroy a nation. Kisame was once a part of that group of ninjas, yet Sasori destroyed a nation by himself with a single jutsu, Performance of 100 Puppets; he then destroyed more nations as per DB.
Sasori is clearly the better ninja here:

He defeated the strongest Kazekage ever (mentioned 3 times in the manga, and twice in the DB), when he was a teenager.
He destroyed several nations, one of those nations was defeated with 100 Puppets only.
He has the strongest jutsu in his village, the Iron Sand. Even in Boruto era, the IS is still considered stronger than Gaara's.
He has a Kekkei Genkai, one of the strongest actually. Kisame doesn't.
Since he has 298 puppets and half of them are Human Puppets, it's safe to say Sasori might have access to all elemental Natures through them. Kisame only has Suiton.
Sasori has Fuinjutsu as well (that's why he can summon puppets to the battlefield; he sealed his memories inside that core of his; and he can turn ninja into puppets and keep their chakra sealed inside the puppet; he has that brainwashing jutsu too).
Since he learned everything from Chiyo, he prolly has some knowledge on Medical Ninjutsu, therefore, he can craft the most powerful poisons and he can also make antidotes.

Thus Sasori wins, not because of a bad matchup, but becasue he's stronger and deadlier.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Turrin (Jul 27, 2020)

Kisame was easily scratched by Asuma’s Hein trick and B’s sword toss. Given this, it’s highly likely that without knowledge Kisame will get scratched by Hiroku traps and loose low-diff. If this doesn’t occur he looses to Iron-Sand Mid-Diff, considering that HG realm has better absorption feats then Samehada and couldn’t absorb Gaara’s sand do to it using actual physical sand; which is the same with the Iron Sand. Kisame gets scratched by Iron Sand pretty quickly and looses.

Sasori is also portrayed > Kisame. As Sasori > Deidara who Kisame already considered one of the stronger members; and Sasori was a threat to Orochimaru who Kisame also considered very powerful (and out of his league based on being a Sannin). Not to mention Sasori better stats; and better accomplishments defeating Sandaime-Kazekage and an entire country

Reactions: Like 2


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## deltaniner (Jul 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Sasori is also portrayed > Kisame. As Sasori > Deidara who Kisame already considered one of the stronger members; and Sasori was a threat to Orochimaru who Kisame also considered very powerful (and out of his league based on being a Sannin). Not to mention Sasori better stats; and better accomplishments defeating Sandaime-Kazekage and an entire country


@Troyse22 @Lyren I summon thee!


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## Troyse22 (Jul 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Sasori was a threat to Orochimaru



In addition to all the shit in that post, this one stands out.

Oro was about to take that piece of garbage on without fucking arms

Sasori is not a threat to Oro in ANY capacity, the portrayal and feats directly contradict that.



deltaniner said:


> @Troyse22 @Lyren I summon thee!



Why bother? The kid thinks Asuma is a legit threat to him. Apparently getting a paper cut on your cheek=losing, but getting blown up, sent flying, losing an arm means Jiraiya beats Asura 1v1


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## Turrin (Jul 27, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> In addition to all the shit in that post, this one stands out.
> 
> Oro was about to take that piece of garbage on without fucking arms
> 
> ...


Correction he was about to ambush him with the help of Kabuto, rather then take him on directly.


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## Turrin (Jul 27, 2020)

deltaniner said:


> @Troyse22 @Lyren I summon thee!


Acting like your not a Troy dupe lol


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## Lyren (Jul 27, 2020)

deltaniner said:


> @Troyse22 @Lyren I summon thee!


Lol Kisame was portrayed as Itachi equal when he died, that alone shits on any portrayal Sasori have.
And by feats one mid diffed Killer B, the other was clowned by Sakura and an old hag.
Kisame is obviously better and loses strictly due to match up and lack of knowledge here


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 27, 2020)

Kisame shits

Sub Voyage ensures an invincible route straight to Sasori himself

Lake barf and staying/attacking from underwater renders puppets and poison a no-threat, even more useless if he attacks from his high speed water bubble while additionally under his lake 

1,000 sharks rolls over his puppet army, washes poison off IS

Daikodan one shots

Dome renders Sasori’s offense harmless when it washes poison off of everyone of his puppets and weapons he has out or summons after, makes puppet mobility shit, poison gas harmless, needles inoperable and harmless, his own flamethrower harmless, his flight ability inoperable, his spear rope inoperable, and likely passively absorbs chakra strings making Sasori harmless period

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> *Correction he was about to ambush him with the help of Kabuto*, rather then take him on directly.



That's not proof of anything though. Orochimaru needed Kabuto to ambush Sasori - Sasori was there to speak to Kabuto, not fight or kill Orochimaru. Besides, the dude is so heavily outclassed by Oro he probably wouldn't be much help.


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## deltaniner (Jul 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Acting like your not a Troy dupe lol


"Anyone who disagrees with me is a dupe"

Flawless fucking logic there, man. Truly, you are a master debater.

Reactions: Like 1


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## deltaniner (Jul 27, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Why bother? The kid thinks Asuma is a legit threat to him. Apparently getting a paper cut on your cheek=losing, but getting blown up, sent flying, losing an arm means Jiraiya beats Asura 1v1


The power of Sannin-Wank is not bound by such silly constraints like reason or logic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jul 27, 2020)

deltaniner said:


> The power of Sannin-Wank is not bound by such silly constraints like reason or logic.



When you're not restricted by reason and regular things like a brain, anything is possible!


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## deltaniner (Jul 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Correction he was about to ambush him with the help of Kabuto, rather then take him on directly.


Like Kabuto pre-SM could do anything. Before he got one of the biggest buffs in the series, he was only on Kakashi's level. Both Sasori and Orochimaru take a steaming dump on BoS Kakashi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jul 27, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kisame shits
> 
> Sub Voyage ensures an invincible route straight to Sasori himself
> 
> ...



Like why isn't the Chakra strings thing just a straight up win?

He can legit eliminate sasoris puppets effortlessly.


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## Lyren (Jul 27, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Like why isn't the Chakra strings thing just a straight up win?
> 
> He can legit eliminate sasoris puppets effortlessly.


My only concern in this match up is if Kisame tanks a poisoned satetsu head on and rely on his strength to deflect it instead of walling Sasori with suiton (He wouldn't approach the fight this way if he had knowledge but he doesn't in this scenario)


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## Troyse22 (Jul 27, 2020)

Lyren said:


> My only concern in this match up is if Kisame tanks a poisoned satetsu head on and rely on his strength to deflect it instead of walling Sasori with suiton (He wouldn't approach the fight this way if he had knowledge but he doesn't in this scenario)



If Sakura and Chiyo can avoid weapons, Kisame can too. He scales above them in literally every stat


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## Charmed (Jul 27, 2020)

Kisame can't even deal with  how's he supposed to cast ninjutsu and dodge Sasori's attacks while poisoned? He doesn't even have an antidote.



DaVizWiz said:


> Sub Voyage ensures an invincible route straight to Sasori himself


Sasori outranges, then he goes airborne.



DaVizWiz said:


> Lake barf and staying/attacking from underwater renders puppets and poison a no-threat,





DaVizWiz said:


> Dome renders Sasori’s offense harmless when it washes poison off of everyone of his puppets and weapons he has out or summons after, makes puppet mobility shit, poison gas harmless, needles inoperable and harmless, his own flamethrower harmless, his flight ability inoperable, his spear rope inoperable, and likely passively absorbs chakra strings making Sasori harmless period



but makes it easier for Sasori to poison Kisame. He just poisons the water and Kisame is done for. If a single senbon was about to kill Kankuro, imagine Kisame having gallons of poison inside his body... he'd die for sure.




DaVizWiz said:


> even more useless if he attacks from his high speed water bubble


Which can't even break the sound barrier, so yeah.
Sasori has jutsu that can easily break the sound barrier and he can even increase their speed if he needs to.



"_It is possible to use the repellent properties of magnetiss *to greatly increase the speed *of the pellets or to change their flight after they are launched_"




DaVizWiz said:


> 1,000 sharks rolls over his puppet army,


Nope, Puppets can't fly remember? Sharks can't unless they grow wings like Ikarus or sumthn'...



DaVizWiz said:


> Daikodan one shots


It is Kisame's strongest technique, yet it is being tanked by IS. There's no chakra there to devour, just large amounts of compressed Iron and gallons of poison.

With your arguments you pretty much just killed Kisame.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Lyren (Jul 27, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> If Sakura and Chiyo can avoid weapons, Kisame can too. He scales above them in literally every stat


Which is not my point. If Kisame dodges them he will be fine but he usually prefers blocking attacks instead of avoiding them, unless he has knowledge on Sasori poisoned IS.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 27, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Which is not my point. If Kisame dodges them he will be fine but he usually prefers blocking attacks instead of avoiding them, unless he has knowledge on Sasori poisoned IS.



So what if he blocks with Samehada?

And he dodges whenever he can, it's not like he enjoys taking hits.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

I still have not seen an argument that explains how someone who can get scratched by the likes of asuma and Base Bee not going all out 
Is immune to getting scratched here 

Barfing a lake is very nice and all 
But please explain how does that beat sasori ? He can’t drown 

what specific technique is kisame going to use that suddenly gives him the win 

I am honestly asking here 

@DaVizWiz

Reactions: Like 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kisame shits
> 
> Sub Voyage ensures an invincible route straight to Sasori himself
> 
> ...



daikodan is featless why exactly does it 1 shot based on what logic please 

We have seen suiton jutsu roughly half the size of that in part 1 hit Zabuza with no visible damage 

why exactly does daikodan 1 shot please use feats or hype a statement or a panel show casing it’s awesome power 

because daikodan GG is headcanon


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> So what if he blocks with Samehada?
> 
> And he dodges whenever he can, it's not like he enjoys taking hits.



He isn’t exactly a careful fighter asuma simple trick scratched him which is all sasori needs 

killer bee simple sword throw did as well

I don’t see how any of what’s been mentioned is harder to avoid than iron sand 

I mean even bloody hidan managed to best asuma in cqc while avoiding shikamaru shadow


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## Lyren (Jul 27, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> So what if he blocks with Samehada?
> 
> And he dodges whenever he can, it's not like he enjoys taking hits.


Well if Kisame blocks with Samehada, Sasori can follow up with a senbon the former won't see coming. Any of that shit won't happen if Kisame have knowledge on poison since he will not try to block any of Sasori attacks under any circumstance that might leave him open


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> I still have not seen an argument that explains how someone who can get scratched by the likes of asuma and Base Bee not going all out
> Is immune to getting scratched here
> 
> Barfing a lake is very nice and all
> ...


The lake provides protection against poison, puppets, ranged weapons and gas which is most of Sasori’s arsenal.

The lake doesn’t kill it gives Kisame a vehicle to eventually slash Sasori apart.


MHA massive fan said:


> daikodan is featless why exactly does it 1 shot based on what logic please
> 
> We have seen suiton jutsu roughly half the size of that in part 1 hit Zabuza with no visible damage
> 
> ...


Daikodan absorbs chakra so IS becomes inanimate iron powder that gets pushed down into Sasori’s plastic body and crushes him, assuming he is using IS defensively.

Daikodan doesn’t have to physically destroy any opponent, all it has to do is drain their chakra and they are rendered harmless or dead.

Though yes a tidal wave of that mass and speed would physically smash plastic puppets like Sasori to pieces and crush his external organ.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> The lake provides protection against poison, puppets, ranged weapons and gas which is most of Sasori’s arsenal.
> 
> The lake doesn’t kill it gives Kisame a vehicle to eventually slash Sasori apart.
> Daikodan absorbs chakra so IS becomes inanimate iron powder that gets pushed down into Sasori’s plastic body and crushes him, assuming he is using IS defensively.
> ...



How does the lake do this elaborate 
Can’t sasori just walk on water and thus keep the fight on the surface ?

You really didn’t provide any substance to your post 

daikodan can be avoided as it has no feats to suggest its impossible to side step 

we saw the likes of hidan avoid a giant bijuu sized fire ball 
We have also seen Kakashi avoid a wind blast with AOE on par with daikodan 

why would sasori opt to use Iron sand to block , he doesn’t fight at all like Gaara 

also all of this ignores how kisame normally starts a fight which is with his sword 
Even when he barfs a lake he still goes into cqc when outnumbered 4 to 1 

why would he behave any differently here ?


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 27, 2020)

sasori wins. kisame will be poisoned or dismembered by iron sand.

the initial lake, sharks & water clones are all useless since sasori can levitate and shoot myriad projectiles.
and samehada eating strings doesn't counter this, thats a myth. the puppets are a means to disguise poisoned weapons, they aren't going to grapple in cqc w/ kisame, where absorption would come into play.
Sasori would still be controlling the flow at this stage

if it progresses that kisame is still unscathed & by some incredible idiocy sasori decides not to fly away when kisame closes the lake into a dome, iron sand hard counters that jutsu.
This, either by allowing sasori to eject himself magnetically or w/ a kaihou variant, or turning kisame into a pin cushion or by forcing kisame to back off allowing sasori the edge o the bubble-->the exit.


''the poison will be lolwashed away'' - myth, its still there en masse, going into his gills & skin
''kisame can outlast sasori'' - myth, he'll get no chakra from sasori, he has no bijuu amp ITT & sasori doesn't tire
''sasori will drain & die just by being in the water'' - myth, feats give proper context to that statement combined w/ the notion that ''u can't escape'' the dome._____(and even if it were possible, sasoris essence as well as sandaimes r both safely sealed away in the human kugutsu kinjutsu, while the satetsu itself uses magnetism created by sandaimes essence.)

then as always, Wank-o-dan no jutsu is useless
kisame has a 50/50 chance of getting by hiruko alone


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

wooly Eullerex said:


> sasori wins. kisame will be poisoned or dismembered by iron sand.
> 
> the initial lake, sharks & water clones are all useless since sasori can levitate and shoot myriad projectiles.
> and samehada eating strings doesn't counter this, thats a myth. the puppets are a means to disguise poisoned weapons, they aren't going to grapple in cqc w/ kisame, where absorption would come into play.
> ...



sasori would be unfazed by water dome seeing as he doesn’t breathe

if anything he is hoping kisame rushes him then and gets poisoned 

after all a little bit of ink got in his face he couldn’t avoid that 

no way he avoids poison blasted in his face when he closes in for the kill 

strange how everything in the manga points to him loosing

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jul 27, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Well if Kisame blocks with Samehada, Sasori can follow up with a senbon the former won't see coming. Any of that shit won't happen if Kisame have knowledge on poison since he will not try to block any of Sasori attacks under any circumstance that might leave him open



It didn't leave him open when tenten threw a grenade right at his face.

No Akatsuki member dies to Sasoris senbon, they all have the capacity to push him further or beat him, and Kisame has far better reaction feats than any of them


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## Charmed (Jul 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> strange how everything in the manga points to him loosing


that's why I said that Sasori ranks higher than Kisame.
Sure, Kisame is a beast, he can take on Jins, but everything in the manga and  the DB and even the skillset, points out Sasori is clearly superior. Even in Boruto...
Hopefully this thread and the arguments made by me and other people, will make other users rank Sasori higher than Kisame; again, I'm not saying Kisame is weak, he's not, he's an akatsuki member and prolly one of the strognest ones but Sasori is stronger.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> It didn't leave him open when tenten threw a grenade right at his face.
> 
> No Akatsuki member dies to Sasoris senbon, they all have the capacity to push him further or beat him, and Kisame has far better reaction feats than any of them



what reaction feat does he have that puts him above Itachi whose eyes basically predict movement 

being blitz by 6G gate and KCM naruto isn’t far above the rest of the akatsuki by any stretch of the imagination 

in fact his only decent fight was against Bee who isn’t known at all for his speed 
Nor does he have any speed hype to boot


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## Troyse22 (Jul 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> what reaction feat does he have that puts him above Itachi whose eyes basically predict movement
> 
> being blitz by 6G gate and KCM naruto isn’t far above the rest of the akatsuki by any stretch of the imagination
> 
> ...



You want facts or are u just asking for them so u can ignore them?


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## KamuiKye (Jul 27, 2020)

Chucky Doll wins this, mid diff.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> what reaction feat does he have that puts him above Itachi whose eyes basically predict movement
> 
> being blitz by 6G gate and KCM naruto isn’t far above the rest of the akatsuki by any stretch of the imagination
> 
> ...



Bee _is_ fast - Sasuke himself acknowledged it - but Samehada did all the work against Tailed Bee.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Bee _is_ fast - Sasuke himself acknowledged it - but Samehada did all the work against Tailed Bee.



He actually only said Bee using the cloak is fast however said his eyes would have no issues keeping up And in fact said bee moves in straight lines thus more predictable 

and yes samehada did the heavy lifting there
Kisame had no reaction feats to speak of that puts him in a good light


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> He actually only said Bee using the cloak is fast however said his eyes would have no issues keeping up
> 
> and yes samehada did the heavy lifting there
> Kisame had no reaction feats to speak of that puts him in a good light



True, and it should be noted Bee was only using three of his eight tails at the time. Imagine a V2 seven-tailed Bee.

Shit would be hard to react to. Agreed on Samehada.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> True, and it should be noted Bee was only using three of his eight tails at the time. Imagine a V2 seven-tailed Bee.
> 
> Shit would be hard to react to. Agreed on Samehada.



i do not believe the speed would be increased much more remember rock lee explained this 
No point moving super fast if you don’t have the reactions to deal with the counter attack 
Bee doesn’t have anything to enhance his reflexes so while he may be able to move much faster with higher level cloaks his reactions might not keep up


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> i do not believe the speed would be increased much more remember rock lee explained this
> No point moving super fast if you don’t have the reactions to deal with the counter attack
> *Bee doesn’t have anything to enhance his reflexes so while he may be able to move much faster with higher level cloaks his reactions might not keep up*



The Tailed Beast Cloaks improve that shit too, bro. They improve all your physical capabilities. All of them.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The Tailed Beast Cloaks improve that shit too, bro. They improve all your physical capabilities. All of them.



Please provide panel evidence that has the author stating beast cloaks improve reactions

I’ll wait


So if beast cloaks improve reaction time then by that logic a jin going bijuu mode would mean his reactions are even improved further and are at a level well beyond their base level correct ?


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## Speedyamell (Jul 27, 2020)

Sasori wins period. It's not looking too good for kisame when he has a chance of doing it with just hiruko as well.
If satetsu comes out, sasori has sound barrier breaking jutsu and jutsu with crazy Aoe like world order that kisame cannot escape. 

Daikodan doesn't really work against iron sand since it's physical material controlled by magnetic force controlled by chakra. 
Waterdome is useless against a puppet.. GG.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Please provide panel evidence that has the author stating beast cloaks improve reactions
> 
> I’ll wait



Imagine not understanding that the more tails you have, the more chakra you have and the stronger your chakra mode becomes in every physical aspect (just compare KN1 to KN3). That obviously includes speed as well.

Imagine snarking at me for something the manga makes very clear and transparent. Why do you think people use higher tailed modes anyway, just for fun?


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Imagine not understanding that the more tails you have, the more chakra you have and the stronger your chakra mode becomes in every physical aspect (just compare KN1 to KN3). That obviously includes speed as well.
> 
> Imagine snarking at me for something the manga makes very clear and transparent. Why do you think people use higher tailed modes anyway, just for fun?



more chakra more power
Does not mean better reactions
What a dense comment
If it’s obvious where is the author statement of that fact
Because when there is a reaction improvement or enhancement he makes that quite clear
In the same way when there is a speed boost he does
So yes chakra mode gives one more speed and power it does not improve their reactions unless stated otherwise 

Like I said Rock lee already made this point , he can use gates to increase his physical speed but it does not improve his reactions . This is why he isn’t moving at blasting speeds in combat throughout 

I’ll wait for the scan


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## cry77 (Jul 27, 2020)

Charmed said:


> Kisame can't even deal with  how's he supposed to cast ninjutsu and dodge Sasori's attacks while poisoned? He doesn't even have an antidote.


i agree with a lot of your post, but those senbons arent omnidirectional. logically, Kisame will still only be hit from one side, the others will just fire in different directions where kisame arent. 

Omnidirectional would have kisame at the center and then hitting inwards from all sides, but these senbon-bombs still only need to be dodged from one direction, and the rest are destined to miss,

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Jul 27, 2020)

cry77 said:


> i agree with a lot of your post, but those senbons arent omnidirectional. logically, Kisame will still only be hit from one side, the others will just fire in different directions where kisame arent.


Thanks. I know what you mean, and altho some of them are gonna miss, the needles are still coming from different angles, cuz  while the arm is heading towards the location it was shot, it is rotating at the same time, shooting senbons in all directions. 



as you can clearly see, senbons are heading towards boh Chiyo and Sakura at the same time from so many different angles!
From Sakura's left side, Sakura's back, Chiyo's back, Chiyo's left side, etc.  but the angles are all different.

Thus these senbons are  much harder to dodge than the ones coming , which Kisame can easily block using Samehada as a shield. Chiyo dodged them prolly cuz of the sound the senbons make all thanks to her superb experience as a puppet master. 

They're still much harder to dodge than asuma's blade for example.

Not that Sasori can't make an omnidirectional attack with Iron Sand, but he clearly doesn't need to use it here anyway.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> more chakra more power
> Does not mean better reactions
> What a dense comment



Yes, it does. Naruto's speed comes from his chakra mode. If his chakra mode gets stronger, so does all of him.  - the . Sounds like you're the dense one, brother. You might wanna work on that.



MHA massive fan said:


> If it’s obvious where is the author statement of that fact
> Because when there is a reaction improvement or enhancement he makes that quite clear
> In the same way when there is a speed boost he does
> So yes chakra mode gives one more speed and power it does not improve their reactions unless stated otherwise



Someone doesn't seem to understand what a ''required secondary power'' is. Higher speed is useless without higher reflexes.



MHA massive fan said:


> Like I said Rock lee already made this point , he can use gates to increase his physical speed but it does not improve his reactions . This is why he isn’t moving at blasting speeds in combat throughout



Where did Rock Lee make this point?

Also, going by this logic, Eight Gated Guy and Base Guy would have the same reaction speed. Or would you seriously argue Eight Gated Guy and Base Guy have the same reaction speed? 

If so, oof. Base Guy  Eight Gated Guy .



MHA massive fan said:


> I’ll wait for the scan



Imagine needing to be spoonfed every single detail by Kishimoto. That's sad.


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## cry77 (Jul 27, 2020)

Charmed said:


> Thanks. I know what you mean, and altho some of them are gonna miss, the needles are still coming from different angles, cuz  while the arm is heading towards the location it was shot, it is rotating at the same time, shooting senbons in all directions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are coming at both Sakura and Chiyo because they are standing in different locations.

Omnidirectional would be if, let's say, they came at Chiyo from the front, back, up and down at the same time, which they dont IIRC. But perhaps Sasori can fire 2 of those clusters and have them detonate at different angles, thus making them omnnidirectional.


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## KamuiKye (Jul 27, 2020)

What do you call Kisame when he’s clogged with Sasori’s poison? 



A poisonous fish! 



Can I get a drum roll, please!


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## Speedyamell (Jul 27, 2020)

Someone needs to be told that chakra cloaks improve speed and reactions? Did you skip the whole of Vote1 or??


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## Charmed (Jul 27, 2020)

cry77 said:


> They are coming at both Sakura and Chiyo because they are standing in different locations.





cry77 said:


> Omnidirectional would be if, let's say, they came at Chiyo from the front, back, up and down at the same time, which they dont IIRC. But perhaps Sasori can fire 2 of those clusters and have them detonate at different angles, thus making them omnnidirectional.


well, it depends; picture this:

Hiruko fires the arm mrchanism.at Kisame.
Kisame, not knowing what that thing, he'll try to dodge it right? But how? well.. he can move left, right or up (jump).
If he goes left, the senbons will mostly come from his right; if he moves right, the senbons will mostly come from the left.
If he jumps, it's even worse, cuz, in the air, he won't be able to shunshin, and the needles will still reach him up in the air.
Doesn't mater where he moves, the senbons will also be coming from behind him.
So it may not be an omnidirectional attack, but since it attacks the opponents back, above and  lef/right side at the same time, it's more difficult to dodge than liner attacks. 

Ofc, Hiruko can shoot needles out of his mouth to also attack the front, too!


So yeah, this is one of Sasori's most lethal attacks, and I just noticed that most shinobi will try to dodge the arm mechanism and they'd be doomed unless they had some instant defense, like a ribcage susanoo, or Gaara's sand, or the Raikage's RnY; Oro will get hit by those but he can OR so... yeah, but most shinobi are doomed cuz this is Sasori's opening attack. I just think that Sasori vs Kisame is a clear example tha we shpuldn't underestimate Hiruko just because it got crushed by Sakura. If you have no way to immobilize or blitz the puppet, it'll be very hard if not impossible to get Sasori out of there.

I was saving this for another thread but, what happens if the opponent has no way to get Sasori out of Hiruko?
It is known that that puppet is his armor, but it's actually designed to hide Sasori's hands, thus the opponent can't read his attack pattern. Can Sasori control the Kazekage Puppet while still being inside Hiruko? He did that in the anime, but he can still make hand signs while inside the puppet (he helped the akatsuki seal Shukaku w/o getting out of Hiruko). So, if he can control the 3rd Kazekage while still being inside Hiruko, no one could read his attack pattern, that's why Chiyo needed to get him out of there asap, so she could look at Sasori's finger movements all the time and predict his attacks, a task that not all ninja are capable of.

But certainly, Sasori has a very high chance of ending this match with Hiruko only.


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## Mithos (Jul 28, 2020)

Kisame gets poisoned in the first 30 seconds and loses.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yes, it does. Naruto's speed comes from his chakra mode. If his chakra mode gets stronger, so does all of him.  - the . Sounds like you're the dense one, brother. You might wanna work on that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no further need to discuss this if you don’t know the manga 
Base gai and 8 gate gai have the same reflexes 
However massively different speeds 
There is nothing 8G gai reacted to that base gai would not 

lee made this point when sasuke copied his speed 

Kishi the author explains how the jutsu works 
However when he explains A raiton cloak reaction boost is mentioned 

No need to respond . You don’t understand


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yes, it does. Naruto's speed comes from his chakra mode. If his chakra mode gets stronger, so does all of him.  - the . Sounds like you're the dense one, brother. You might wanna work on that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







now show me a description of tailed beast chakra mode or gates that specifically mention a boost to neuro transmission which naturally improves reaction

why would Kishi bother to mention this here 
If it’s a given for all techniques 

It’s his manga not yours 
If he hasn’t said it or shown it then it’s not true 
The end


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> no further need to discuss this if you don’t know the manga
> Base gai and 8 gate gai have the same reflexes



Way to destroy what little credibility you had left. No, they do not. Are you seriously trying to argue Base Guy, who got tagged by a random Version 2 Jinchuriki, has reflexes on par with Eight Gated Guy - *who can fucking warp SPACE with his speed*?[/QUOTE]

Also, where is the Lee quote? I notice you haven't even sourced it.



MHA massive fan said:


> However massively different speeds
> There is nothing 8G gai reacted to that base gai would no



So why did Base Guy get knocked back by a random Jinchuriki, get punched in the face by Kisame, and so on?



MHA massive fan said:


> lee made this point when sasuke copied his speed



Prove it or I'm going to know you're lying.



MHA massive fan said:


> Kishi the author explains how the jutsu works
> However when he explains A raiton cloak reaction boost is mentioned



Yes, and? Ay's lightning shroud is basically a non-Tailed Beast version of the shrouds Naruto, Bee, etc. use. 



MHA massive fan said:


> now show me a description of tailed beast chakra mode or gates that specifically mention a boost to neuro transmission which naturally improves reaction



Imagine not understanding that you NEED heightened reflexes to keep up with heightened speed.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Way to destroy what little credibility you had left. No, they do not. Are you seriously trying to argue Base Guy, who got tagged by a random Version 2 Jinchuriki, has reflexes on par with Eight Gated Guy - *who can fucking warp SPACE with his speed*?
> 
> Also, where is the Lee quote? I notice you haven't even sourced it.
> 
> ...



You understand if you are the one attacking you aren’t reacting
Tell me your thick skull gets this

what exactly did 8G gai react to exactly

what you react to is an opponent counter attack 
What did juubidara do that was so fast base gai couldn’t react to ?

is it throwing tsb because fucking gaara could react to that as could Kakashi and Rock lee


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> You understand if you are the one attacking you aren’t reacting



I'm sorry, what garbage is this? You NEED to be able to react to your own speed in order to not lose control and hit a wall or something. This is common sense. KCM Naruto literally hits a wall and sprains his leg because he lost control of his speed.



MHA massive fan said:


> Tell me your thick skull gets this
> 
> what exactly did 8G gai react to exactly



His own speed, obviously. You probably think Base Guy has relativistic reflexes, which makes you not worth debating.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm sorry, what garbage is this? You NEED to be able to react to your own speed in order to not lose control and hit a wall or something. This is common sense. KCM Naruto literally hits a wall and sprains his leg because he lost control of his speed.
> 
> 
> 
> His own speed, obviously. You probably think Base Guy has relativistic reflexes, which makes you not worth debating.



look up definition of reacting. How am I reacting to something I already decided to do?

You are wow dense , I am shocked 

To even make this clear 8G gai clearly says what moves he is going to do before doing them 

that’s is the direct opposite of reacting 

seeing he already knew what was he was going to do thus cannot react .

naruto broke his foot entirely different scenario and not at all related to his reaction but his control of his speed 

again provide a scan of the author saying other modes but raiton mode specifically boost neural synapses 

why would the author make this point in manga and DB if it was not specific to the jutsu 

I mean let’s use your logic considering base bee reacted to Minato then bee being boosted by V2 should have been able to move so fast he disappears from kisame line of sight completely and kills him before he can think

you have also yet to show scans of SM naruto moving as fast or having the same speed hype as A4


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> look up definition of reacting. How am I reacting to something I already decided to do?



Imagine not being intelligent enough to understand you need to be able to REACT to your own speed. If you can't, you will lose control.

Do you not understand that the faster people run, the harder it gets to control your speed? This is literally why Kakashi needed the Sharingan to avoid losing control of Chidori lmao. At higher speeds, it becomes harder to react...unless your reflexes also increase.

SM Naruto's reflexes > KCM Naruto's reflexes which allowed KCM to dodge Ay's fastest punch. 



MHA massive fan said:


> naruto broke his foot entirely different scenario and not at all related to his reaction but his control of his speed



They're the same thing, you donut. 



MHA massive fan said:


> You are wow dense , I am shocked



Not as dense as you, apparently.



MHA massive fan said:


> To even make this clear 8G gai clearly says what moves he is going to do before doing them that’s is the direct opposite of reacting seeing he already knew what was he was going to do thus cannot react



So you're saying Base Guy can react to his own body moving at relativistic speeds and not lose control...huh.



MHA massive fan said:


> again provide a scan of the author saying other modes but raiton mode specifically boost neural synapses



I don't have to, considering how obvious this is. 

Like why would you even assume a mode that makes you faster doesn't boost your speed? 



MHA massive fan said:


> why would the author make this point in manga and DB if it was not specific to the jutsu



Because he wants to explain how the jutsu works?



MHA massive fan said:


> I mean let’s use your logic considering base bee reacted to Minato then bee being boosted by V2 should have been able to move so fast he disappears from kisame line of sight completely and kills him before he can think



Bad comparison. Reflexes =/ speed. KCM Naruto has a higher max speed, but SM Naruto has better reflexes. Base Bee is much slower than Minato and so is V2 Bee but has the reflexes to keep up with the former or guard against his attacks. 



MHA massive fan said:


> you have also yet to show scans of SM naruto moving as fast or having the same speed hype as A4



He can't move as fast as V2 Ay, something I literally said before. His reflexes > KCM's though.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Imagine not being intelligent enough to understand you need to be able to REACT to your own speed. If you can't, you will lose control.
> 
> Do you not understand that the faster people run, the harder it gets to control your speed? This is literally why Kakashi needed the Sharingan to avoid losing control of Chidori lmao. At higher speeds, it becomes harder to react...unless your reflexes also increase.
> 
> ...



good bye you are wrong


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> good bye you are wrong



Concession accepted. Try not to argue against common sense and the manga next time.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That's not proof of anything though. Orochimaru needed Kabuto to ambush Sasori - Sasori was there to speak to Kabuto, not fight or kill Orochimaru. Besides, the dude is so heavily outclassed by Oro he probably wouldn't be much help.


It proves that Orochimaru plan was to ambush Sasori with Kabuto’s help. Saying a weakened Orochimaru alone was confident he alone could kill Sasori based on this plot is simply not true as that just wasn’t the scenario.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It proves that Orochimaru plan was to ambush Sasori with Kabuto’s help



Right, but you're forgetting that Kabuto needs to be there for Sasori to turn up at all. 

If Kabuto doesn't show up, Sasori's gonna leave.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Right, but you're forgetting that Kabuto needs to be there for Sasori to turn up at all.
> 
> If Kabuto doesn't show up, Sasori's gonna leave.


Okay, and this still doesn’t change the fact that the scenario was not 1v1; straight forward fight.
So again you can’t use this instance to say weakened Orochimaru > Sasori; only that Orochimaru believed with an ambush and Kabuto’s help they could win (and even that’s dubious given Orochimaru overconfidence is usually misguided)


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay, and this still doesn’t change the fact that the scenario was not 1v1; straight forward fight



Proof? 



Turrin said:


> So again you can’t use this instance to say weakened Orochimaru > Sasori; only that Orochimaru believed with an ambush and Kabuto’s help they could win (and even that’s dubious given Orochimaru overconfidence is usually misguided)



What? I think feats say Orochimaru > Sasori.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Proof?
> 
> 
> 
> What? I think feats say Orochimaru > Sasori.


What do you mean proof? That’s literally the scenario...

And I don’t agree Sasori is >= Orochimaru imo, though P2 Edos make Orochimaru > Sasori


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> What do you mean proof? That’s literally the scenario...
> 
> And I don’t agree Sasori is >= Orochimaru imo, though P2 Edos make Orochimaru > Sasori



Proof Orochimaru intended to ambush Sasori? He didn't even ambush Team 7 lmao. Not the same thing, of course.

I think Orochimaru by hype and feats > Sasori by a tier or more. Oro is a way deadlier fighter and is the guy who killed the Third Hokage.


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## Speedyamell (Jul 28, 2020)

Orochimaru wasn't relying on kabuto to take on sasori at techni bridge.. kabuto was literally who sasori expected which is why he was there lmao.. but then again turrin can't seem to understand manga panels properly nowadays


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Proof Orochimaru intended to ambush Sasori? He didn't even ambush Team 7 lmao. Not the same thing, of course.
> 
> I think Orochimaru by hype and feats > Sasori by a tier or more. Oro is a way deadlier fighter and is the guy who killed the Third Hokage.


Sasori showing up expecting only Kabuto; Orochimaru showing up and attacking him is an ambush period. Whether he goes for a back stab or not, doesn’t change this.

Sasori beat Sandaime Kazekage the strongest Kazekage and added his power to his own. I used to think this was about as impressive as beating Hiruzen, but post-retcon old Hiruzen is 
the weakest not the strongest Hokage; and Orochimaru didn’t add Hiruzen power to his own until after he got his arms back in the WA. So I just see Sasori’s accomplishment as better. 

As far as feats go; I think Iron Sand poisoned alone is a match for Orochimaru arsenal in terms of how deadly it is, which makes sense as Sandaime should have been around Orochimaru in strength and his Iron Sand as Suna’s strongest Jutsu/weapon should have been close to Orochimaru arsenal as well; so Iron Sand Upgrade with poison should be close to Orochimaru Jutsu for sure. Then add in 100 Puppets, and Sasori has the better skill set.

With that said I think Orochimaru might be able to beat Sasori if he can create antibodies or already has done to the poison Sasori uses; or could have Kabuto do so or create antidotes. This is why I think Orochimaru was such a threat to Sasori and confident with Kabuto they could beat him. But under normal conditions alone I don’t think Orochimaru wins. The guy takes damage all the time and Sasori needs only one scratch to win, which completely shuts down Orochimaru Amin Regen / damage nullification gimmick

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Sasori showing up expecting only Kabuto; Orochimaru showing up and attacking him is an ambush period. Whether he goes for a back stab or not, doesn’t change this.
> 
> Sasori beat Sandaime Kazekage the strongest Kazekage and added his power to his own. I used to think this was about as impressive as beating Hiruzen, but post-retcon old Hiruzen is
> the weakest not the strongest Hokage; and Orochimaru didn’t add Hiruzen power to his own until after he got his arms back in the WA. So I just see Sasori’s accomplishment as better.
> ...



Read what @Speedyamell said. Sasori can't even kill Orochimaru lol.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Read what @Speedyamell said. Sasori can't even kill Orochimaru lol.


Yeah speedy all is wrong, as I said Sasori showing up expecting only Kabuto; Orochimaru showing up and attacking him is an ambush period.

And poison kills Orochimaru, it’s actually one of the most ideal weapons to overcome his Regen as I said in my previous post


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah speedy all is wrong, as I said Sasori showing up expecting only Kabuto; Orochimaru showing up and attacking him is an ambush period



No, it isn't.



Turrin said:


> And poison kills Orochimaru, it’s actually one of the most ideal weapons to overcome his Regen as I said in my previous post



He's resistant to poison.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> He's resistant to poison.


Ambush, “a surprise attack by people lying in wait in a concealed position”

Orochiamru was in a concealed position and he was planning to attack Sasori, which would have been a surprise because he wasn’t expecting Orochimaru to be there only Kabuto. 

—-
He is resistant to some poisons, not all. If he is resistant to Sasori’s then of course he will win, but that’s a type match up win.


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## Charmed (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What? I think feats say Orochimaru > Sasori.


hmm no it's actually the other way around.
It'll be kinda like a Mitsuki vs Shinki (you saw that fight right?) Shinki was trolling with Satetsu.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Right, but you're forgetting that Kabuto needs to be there for Sasori to turn up at all.


this is true but it doesn't mean they could beat Sasori. I'd argue Sasori's poison is much more lethal  than the one he used against 3rd Kazekage or the one he used when Oro was his teammate. He prolly has a wider collection too.
as a matter of fact, while Orochimaru was hiding from the akatsuki and spending 3 years mentoring Sasuke while dealing with his illness, Sasori was out there destroying countries and gaining more exp. 
I'd argue Sasori has killed more shinobi than Oro, I mean, that's the reason why he earned his title since he was a teenager.
Sasori achieved a "perfect" body (which grants him half a dozen of immunities which Oro doesn't have) as a teenager, decades before Oro achieved his, and he didn0t even need Hashi cells to do that.
a 50 y/o Oro took on Rasa with Kabuto and Kimimaro's help, iirc, but needed Sasori's help to infiltrate Suna first or sumthn' like that.
Sasori, as a teen, he didn't need Oro's help to take on teh strongest Kazekage ever who was much stronger tha Rasa, according to Chiyo, the Suna Elders,Sasori himself and the DB.
There're several reasons why Sasori is portrayed above Oro, IMHO.

at the very lest, they should be around the same level, tho I'd rank Sasori above him cuz of his unique KG, his lethal puppet, his country buster puppet army, his immunities, his ability to fly, his multitasking skills, etc...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Ambush, “a surprise attack by people lying in wait in a concealed position”



I know what an ambush is, Turrin. I'm saying there's no proof Orochimaru was planning to actually do that. I'm saying Orochimaru's plan was to use Kabuto as bait to reel Sasori in before appearing and then challenging the latter to a fight.



Turrin said:


> Orochiamru was in a concealed position and he was planning to attack Sasori, which would have been a surprise because he wasn’t expecting Orochimaru to be there only Kabuto



Depends. If Orochimaru literally attacks Sasori while Sasori is talking with Kabuto or has his back turned or something, I'd see your point. The problem is there's no proof this was Orochimaru's idea. The most you can really say is that Oro wanted to take Sasori out and needed to find a way to ensure the latter turns up to be defeated. That has nothing to do with combat strength.



Turrin said:


> He is resistant to some poisons, not all. If he is resistant to Sasori’s then of course he will win, but that’s a type match up win.



He also shrugged off KN4 Naruto's venomous claws more than once. I'd say those are comparable to Sasori's poison.

Besides, Oral Rebirth could likely help Oro override poison damage altogether.



Charmed said:


> hmm no it's actually the other way around.
> It'll be kinda like a Mitsuki vs Shinki (you saw that fight right?) Shinki was trolling with Satetsu



Tbh, I mostly ignore Boruto lol. The movie and a couple of episodes are all I'm really super familiar with, though I kinda know stuff happening in the manga like with Kashin Koji, Jigen, etc. The Genin bore me, frankly. Mitsuki isn't Orochimaru and Shinki isn't Sasori - Orochimaru can cleave through Iron Sand using the Sword of Kusanagi which can cut diamond.



Charmed said:


> this is true but it doesn't mean they could beat Sasori. I'd argue Sasori's poison is much more lethal  than the one he used against 3rd Kazekage or the one he used when Oro was his teammate. He prolly has a wider collection too.
> as a matter of fact, while Orochimaru was hiding from the akatsuki and spending 3 years mentoring Sasuke while dealing with his illness, Sasori was out there destroying countries and gaining more exp.
> I'd argue Sasori has killed more shinobi than Oro, I mean, that's the reason why he earned his title since he was a teenager.
> Sasori achieved a "perfect" body (which grants him half a dozen of immunities which Oro doesn't have) as a teenager, decades before Oro achieved his, and he didn0t even need Hashi cells to do that.
> ...



Proof Orochimaru took on Rasa with Kabuto and Kimimaro's help? That's in the anime only, I think. Using help =/ needing it. Orochimaru and Sasori were enemies by the point of P1. Sasori's ''perfect body'' would get destroyed by the stuff Oro laughs off, such as KN1 Naruto's chakra arm strikes and chakra shockwaves from KN3 Naruto or above. Your boy maybe destroyed one country, there's no proof he destroyed more. It was also very likely a fodder country considering how it's never even named. Oro has the power to destroy a nation too according to Sarutobi in P1. He was a threat to the strongest village.

We don't even know how Sasori took on the Third Kazekage - it could've been an ambush, not a straight fight. Sasori beating the Kazekage makes no real sense considering how badly Iron Sand screws over his entire fighting style. Ultimately, portrayal wise, fighting off KN4 Naruto for a prolonged period of time without even using your full power and having a body rejecting you + defeating a mutually gimped Jiraiya > having trouble with Sakura and Chiyo with prep.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I know what an ambush is, Turrin. I'm saying there's no proof Orochimaru was planning to actually do that. I'm saying Orochimaru's plan was to use Kabuto as bait to reel Sasori in before appearing and then challenging the latter to a fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again Orochimaru does not have to back stab Sasori for it to be a surprise attack; the fact that Orochimaru was there at all is a surprise to Sasori.

—-

KN4 isn’t using actual poison, so nope it’s not comparable


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Again Orochimaru does not have to back stab Sasori for it to be a surprise attack; the fact that Orochimaru was there at all is a surprise to Sasori.
> 
> —-
> 
> KN4 isn’t using actual poison, so nope it’s not comparable



1. Um, so what? A ninja not being able to handle surprise encounters is their weakness.

2. Yep, it's comparable. Both pretty much have the same effect.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. Um, so what? A ninja not being able to handle surprise encounters is their weakness.
> 
> 2. Yep, it's comparable. Both pretty much have the same effect.


1- So it’s an ambush....

2- Except their not the same; just like two different poisons act differently


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- So it’s an ambush....
> 
> 2- Except their not the same; just like two different poisons act differently



1. Ambushes are literally surprise attacks, so you're wrong. It's not an ambush at all.

AMBUSH
make a surprise attack on (someone) from a concealed position.
"they were ambushed and taken prisoner by the enemy"

Where is the proof Orochimaru did this or was going to do this?

2. But they're similar enough that we can trust Orochimaru to shrug it off. Besides, Oro has knowledge and can create new bodies.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. Ambushes are literally surprise attacks, so you're wrong. It's not an ambush at all.
> 
> AMBUSH
> make a surprise attack on (someone) from a concealed position.
> ...


1- We’ve been through this. Sasori wasn’t expecting Orochimaru to be there, hence it was a surprise attack whether Orochimaru went for a back stabbed immediately or not

2- No they aren’t; just like someone can shrug off one type of poison but not another they are different. But what’s the point of this; let’s say he has a natural resistance, that’s just a type match up thing, not him being > Sasori then


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- We’ve been through this. Sasori wasn’t expecting Orochimaru to be there, hence it was a surprise attack whether Orochimaru went for a back stabbed immediately or not
> 
> 2- No they aren’t; just like someone can shrug off one type of poison but not another they are different. But what’s the point of this; let’s say he has a natural resistance, that’s just a type match up thing, not him being > Sasori then



1. It wasn't a surprise attack. Sasori not expecting Orochimaru to be there means nothing in terms of their fight. 

2. It's both. Having poison resistance is an ability.


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## Tri (Jul 28, 2020)

Sasori eventually tags Kisame and kills him for the win here.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. It wasn't a surprise attack. Sasori not expecting Orochimaru to be there means nothing in terms of their fight.
> 
> 2. It's both. Having poison resistance is an ability.


1- Is someone showing up that you weren’t expecting a surprise; yes or no?

2- Yes it’s an ability, but again that just makes Orochimaru a bad match up that he happens to have this ability (assuming he is resistant to All poisons); it’s not like once you reach a certain level everyone gains poison resistance


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Is someone showing up that you weren’t expecting a surprise; yes or no?
> 
> 2- Yes it’s an ability, but again that just makes Orochimaru a bad match up that he happens to have this ability (assuming he is resistant to All poisons); it’s not like once you reach a certain level everyone gains poison resistance



1. It's not a surprise attack and it does literally nothing to affect the outcome of a fight. Your move, Turrin.

2. I mean, it's both lol. Having poison resistance > not having poison resistance.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. It's not a surprise attack and it does literally nothing to affect the outcome of a fight. Your move, Turrin.
> 
> 2. I mean, it's both lol. Having poison resistance > not having poison resistance.



1- Answer the question or I’m done with the discussion as your not being honest then: Is someone showing up that you weren’t expecting a surprise; yes or no?

2- Okay so how does Orochimaru winning due to match up make him a deadlier shinobi overall; when most of the verse poison resistance has zero impact on battles


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Answer the question or I’m done with the discussion as your not being honest then: Is someone showing up that you weren’t expecting a surprise; yes or no?
> 
> 2- Okay so how does Orochimaru winning due to match up make him a deadlier shinobi overall; when most of the verse poison resistance has zero impact on battles



1. A surprise =/ a surprise attack. You were trying to argue the latter when they're two different things. I'd say that's dishonest, but concession accepted. 

2. I mean, if Orochimaru can defeat more people than he could otherwise...is he not stronger? If Orochimaru can defeat only 9 ninja without poison resistance and poison resistance allows him to defeat 12, 11, or even 10 - how is he not stronger?


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. A surprise =/ a surprise attack. *You were trying to argue the latter when they're two different things. I'd say that's dishonest, but concession accepte*d.
> 
> 2. I mean, if Orochimaru can defeat more people than he could otherwise...is he not stronger? If Orochimaru can defeat only 9 ninja without poison resistance and poison resistance allows him to defeat 12, 11, or even 10 - how is he not stronger?


Okay done with this convo


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay done with this convo



Yep, concession accepted. Try to use words properly next time.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yep, concession accepted. Try to use words properly next time.


Not a concession; you just dipping into dishonest


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Not a concession; you just dipping into dishonest



I'm ''dishonest'' for explaining a word doesn't mean what you think it means? 

If you're dropping out of a discussion because I demonstrated you were wrong, that is a concession. And I have.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm ''dishonest'' for explaining a word doesn't mean what you think it means?
> 
> If you're dropping out of a discussion because I demonstrated you were wrong, that is a concession. And I have.


Nah your dishonest because you refuse to admit that Orochimaru being there was a surprise to Sasori. That’s all I ask you to admit


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Nah your dishonest because you refuse to admit that Orochimaru being there was a surprise to Sasori. That’s all I ask you to admit



I mean, that's obvious and I never even disputed that.

What I disputed was that Orochimaru being there is somehow equivalent to a surprise attack or ambush, or that it somehow affects the conclusion of a fight between the two. Also, it's ''you're'', get it right.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, that's obvious and I never even disputed that.
> 
> What I disputed was that Orochimaru being there is somehow equivalent to a surprise attack or ambush, or that it somehow affects the conclusion of a fight between the two. Also, it's ''you're'', get it right.


So was Orochimaru there to attack Sasori; Yes or No?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> So was Orochimaru there to attack Sasori; Yes or No?



Being there to attack Sasori =/ surprise attacking Sasori. 

You do realize that Orochimaru planning to surprise Sasori and then attack him is not the same as surprise attacking Sasori, right? This is like saying water is literally the same as hydrogen and oxygen coexisting together in their normal elemental states.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Being there to attack Sasori =/ surprise attacking Sasori.
> 
> *You do realize that Orochimaru planning to surprise Sasori and then attack him* is not the same as surprise attacking Sasori, right? This is like saying water is literally the same as hydrogen and oxygen coexisting together in their normal elemental states.


How are they different. Explain it


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How are they different. Explain it



Surprising Sasori and then attacking him - Orochimaru hops out of nowhere while Kabuto is talking to Sasori, but lets Sasori react to his appearance like he did in the manga. They trade words and then start fighting. Oro attacks.

Surprise attacking Sasori - While Kabuto is talking to Sasori and the latter is completely unaware of Oro's presence, Oro attacks.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Surprising Sasori and then attacking him - Orochimaru hops out of nowhere while Kabuto is talking to Sasori, but lets Sasori react to his appearance like he did in the manga. They trade words and then start fighting. Oro attacks.
> 
> Surprise attacking Sasori - While Kabuto is talking to Sasori and the latter is completely unaware of Oro's presence, Oro attacks.


I think it's possible you might be conflating sneak attack and suprise attack there a bit.

Ex: Obito attacking Minato was a sneak attack.
Pain attacking the Leaf or Naruto going after Kakuzu is a suprise attack imho.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Surprising Sasori and then attacking him - Orochimaru hops out of nowhere while Kabuto is talking to Sasori, but lets Sasori react to his appearance like he did in the manga. They trade words and then start fighting. Oro attacks.
> 
> Surprise attacking Sasori - While Kabuto is talking to Sasori and the latter is completely unaware of Oro's presence, Oro attacks.


Now explain why one is a surprise attack and one isn’t


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I think it's possible you might be conflating sneak attack and suprise attack there a bit.
> 
> Ex: Obito attacking Minato was a sneak attack.
> Pain attacking the Leaf or Naruto going after Kakuzu is a suprise attack imho.


This is exactly correct


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## Troyse22 (Jul 28, 2020)

KamuiKye said:


> What do you call Kisame when he’s clogged with Sasori’s poison?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ba dum tss


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## Troyse22 (Jul 28, 2020)

Mithos said:


> Kisame gets poisoned in the first 30 seconds and loses.



I bet Jiraiya doesn't though right despite being blitzed after being warned by Asura


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## Troyse22 (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay, and this still doesn’t change the fact that the scenario was not 1v1; straight forward fight.
> So again you can’t use this instance to say weakened Orochimaru > Sasori; only that Orochimaru believed with an ambush and Kabuto’s help they could win (and even that’s dubious given Orochimaru overconfidence is usually misguided)



All Kabuto would've done was break Hiruko, Oro would still have to contend with and beat Sasoris real body which Oro knew was under there and stronger.


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## PocketGod (Jul 28, 2020)

When people think Sasori can actually beat Kisame.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I think it's possible you might be conflating sneak attack and suprise attack there a bit.
> 
> Ex: Obito attacking Minato was a sneak attack.
> Pain attacking the Leaf or Naruto going after Kakuzu is a suprise attack imho.



How am I doing that? Turrin is doing that.

A sneak attack IS a surprise attack. Look at the dictionary definition if you don't believe me. I even shared it earlier.



Turrin said:


> Now explain why one is a surprise attack and one isn’t



Because one involves someone exploiting the element of surprise to hit someone...and one doesn't.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 28, 2020)

In reputation, Sasori is known as "Sasori of the red sand", and for Kisame he is the "tail-less tailed beast". 
Considering you started this fight 5m, Sasori is at a HUGE disadvantage.
In character, Sasori would start in Hiruko and Kisame obvi has samehada by his side.

Kisame beats Hiruko Sasori - no diff

Any version of Sasori other than Hiruko loses to Kisame - mid diff
The only argument i see in favor of Sasori is his poison, which is his most efficient surprise weapon yes. 
But based off speed feats.....
Sakura > Sasori's & his 100 puppets
Kisame > Base Gai & Killer B
Base Gai & Killer B >>> Sakura

Sasori wont be able to hit Kisame with his poison because hes just too fast for it. And even if he tried he could just put him self in a water dome and let the water absorb the poison and simply release himself from the dome. Also, people seem to underestimate Kisame's intelligence. This man literally thought moves ahead in his fight against Killer B to so he was able to infiltrate the cloud village. So if Kisame sees Sasori pull out any of his puppets, he'd use his water prison shark dance technique almost immediately, since Sasori will be unable to use his puppets under water. And at that point its just over.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> But based off speed feats.....
> Sakura > Sasori's & his 100 puppets
> Kisame > Base Gai & Killer B
> Base Gai & Killer B >>> Sakura
> ...



Lol, this is completely wrong. Sakura needed Chiyo and her 10 legendary puppets to fight Sasori and his 100 puppets, don't act like she did it anywhere near on her own (Hiruko would've killed her by itself). Kisame is not faster than Base Guy or Base Bee, he's slower and has gotten tagged by both of them as well as others like BoS Neji, BoS Lee, and Asuma. Sasori's speed >>> Kisame's from an attack standpoint, Iron Sand creates supersonic booms and shit and even outside that the former is an entire tier higher.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Lol, this is completely wrong. Sakura needed Chiyo and her 10 legendary puppets to fight Sasori and his 100 puppets, don't act like she did it anywhere near on her own (Hiruko would've killed her by itself). Kisame is not faster than Base Guy or Base Bee, he's slower and has gotten tagged by both of them as well as others like BoS Neji, BoS Lee, and Asuma. Sasori's speed >>> Kisame's from an attack standpoint, Iron Sand creates supersonic booms and shit and even outside that the former is an entire tier higher.



Yes Chiyo was there, but against the puppets Sakura fought by herself, she was able to tag and dodge a few of them comfortably. And Sakura was only a chunin at this point. I was not stating Sakura could face all 100 puppets just comparing speeds feats of characters.

A 30% chakra clone Kisame was keeping up same speed with a Base Gai and a full power Kisame was able to dodge Killer B's lightning infused pencils point blank twice.

You mentioned characters that Kisame was tagged by but fail to realize that all those characters are superior to Sakura, and this same Sakura was able to tag puppet body Sasori without him being able to react. Kisame definitely has better speed feats than Sasori.

Also what counter does Sasori have to Kisame's Water Prison Shark Dance Technique?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Yes Chiyo was there, but against the puppets Sakura fought by herself



Yeah, this is absolute carp. Reread the fight, because right now it's clear you don't know what you're talking about.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, this is absolute carp. Reread the fight, because right now it's clear you don't know what you're talking about.



I think you may need to see it again friend, because if you watch the fight Sakura was dodging and tagging some of Sasori's puppets. Even in some scenes it was 5 to 1 and she still dodged the puppets. Since you argue in favor that Chiyo was a huge help lets throw her in. 
Chiyo with the mother/father puppet kept up with Sasori using his 3rd kazekage puppet and they traded equal blows. She was able to blitz start of shippuden Naruto without any puppets. While this is the same Naruto (with Sakura's help) could not tag base Kakashi when they were sparring. Also, Kakashi + Sharingan was able to perform a plan to defeat a 30% chakra clone Itachi while Lady Chiyo sat back and watched. Also take into account that
ill itachi >= Hebi Sasuke in speed, and 
Hebi Sasuke > Team 7 including Yamato.
Base Gai & Base Kakashi = Base Jiraiya
Base Jiraiya < 4 tails Naruto
4 tails Naruto < 5 tails Killer B
Kisame > 5 tails Killer B
For the sake of argument lets say that Sasori is faster than Lady Chiyo when using puppets, (although the fight says otherwise). There's no way you can tell me with the listings above that Sasori would be able to keep up with Kisame. You still havent answered what does Sasori have to counter Kisame's Water Prison Shark Dance Technique?


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> All Kabuto would've done was break Hiruko, Oro would still have to contend with and beat Sasoris real body which Oro knew was under there and stronger.


We don’t know what Kabuto would have done; he could have had Antidote to Sasori poison or brewed one; he could have helped Orochimaru by summoning or simply fighting alongside Orochimaru. It’s pointless to speculate, but we can’t apply this to a normal 1v1 and then say Orochimaru wins because he thought he could in an ambush scenario with Kabuto there


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How am I doing that? Turrin is doing that.
> 
> A sneak attack IS a surprise attack. Look at the dictionary definition if you don't believe me. I even shared it earlier.
> 
> ...


Yeah that’s a sneak attack; not an ambush/surprise attack. Someone doesn’t have to literally physically hit the other person before they are aware of them for it to be an ambush/surprise attack.

For example The Sack of Rome by the Visigoths, A.D. 410. is a famous surprise attack, but it’d not like they literally hit every member of the Roman army before they realized they were being attacked; rather they just unexpectedly showed up at the gates of Rome and launched an attack.

Orochimaru showing up unexpectedly at a private meeting between Kabuto and Sasori is an ambush/surprise attack in the same exact way; regardless of whether Orochimaru presence becomes know prior, during, or after he physical launches his first actual attack.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> I think you may need to see it again friend, because if you watch the fight Sakura was dodging and tagging some of Sasori's puppets. Even in some scenes it was 5 to 1 and she still dodged the puppets. Since you argue in favor that Chiyo was a huge help lets throw her in.
> Chiyo with the mother/father puppet kept up with Sasori using his 3rd kazekage puppet and they traded equal blows. She was able to blitz start of shippuden Naruto without any puppets. While this is the same Naruto (with Sakura's help) could not tag base Kakashi when they were sparring. Also, Kakashi + Sharingan was able to perform a plan to defeat a 30% chakra clone Itachi while Lady Chiyo sat back and watched. Also take into account that
> ill itachi >= Hebi Sasuke in speed, and
> Hebi Sasuke > Team 7 including Yamato.
> ...


Kisame looses to Iron Sand literally nothing he can do against it. Sakura evading a few attacks from Sasori doesn’t eliminate the fact that there were tons of attacks her and Chiyo could not evade

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> We don’t know what Kabuto would have done; he could have had Antidote to Sasori poison or brewed one; he could have helped Orochimaru by summoning or simply fighting alongside Orochimaru. It’s pointless to speculate, but we can’t apply this to a normal 1v1 and then say Orochimaru wins because he thought he could in an ambush scenario with Kabuto there





Turrin said:


> Yeah that’s a sneak attack; not an ambush/surprise attack. Someone doesn’t have to literally physically hit the other person before they are aware of them for it to be an ambush/surprise attack.
> 
> For example The Sack of Rome by the Visigoths, A.D. 410. is a famous surprise attack, but it’d not like they literally hit every member of the Roman army before they realized they were being attacked; rather they just unexpectedly showed up at the gates of Rome and launched an attack.
> 
> Orochimaru showing up unexpectedly at a private meeting between Kabuto and Sasori is an ambush/surprise attack in the same exact way; regardless of whether Orochimaru presence becomes know prior, during, or after he physical launches his first actual attack.



You guys realize that Orochimaru visiting was not a "surprise" at all? Him and Kabuto literally planned it all along to take down Sasori. Atleast this is what Kabuto tells Yamato


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> You guys realize that Orochimaru visiting was not a "surprise" at all? Him and Kabuto literally planned it all along to take down Sasori. Atleast this is what Kabuto tells Yamato


It was a surprise to Sasori.....


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Kisame looses to Iron Sand literally nothing he can do against it. Sakura evading a few attacks from Sasori doesn’t eliminate the fact that there were tons of attacks her and Chiyo could not evade



How can Sasori use iron sand inside Kisame's Water Prison Shark Dance Technique? The iron sand will not be mobile inside the water, making it completely useless.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> We don’t know what Kabuto would have done; he could have had Antidote to Sasori poison or brewed one



That's baseless as fuck.

This is never even remotely implied, Sasori believed only Tsunade or a direct pupil of hers could possibly do that.

Kabuto does not share that feat.



Turrin said:


> he thought he could in an ambush scenario with Kabuto there



It would be an ambush if Oro ambushed him with Kusanagi out of no where, aiming for his true heart.

Oro simply jumped in front of them, arms crossed, said the conversation looked interesting and asked to join. That is not an ambush.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 28, 2020)

Tri said:


> Sasori eventually tags Kisame and kills him for the win here.



explain how he "tags" him
The fight starts 5m away, and since Sasori is in Hiruko form, this is a low diff scenario for Kisame


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> That's baseless as fuck.
> 
> This is never even remotely implied, Sasori believed only Tsunade or a direct pupil of hers could possibly do that.
> 
> ...


I could careless if you think Kabuto could or couldn’t make an antidote. It doesn’t change the fact that this wasn’t a straightforward 1v1 & we don’t know how Orochimaru would have engaged Sasori here


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> How can Sasori use iron sand inside Kisame's Water Prison Shark Dance Technique? The iron sand will not be mobile inside the water, making it completely useless.


Why would it not be mobile


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> For example The Sack of Rome by the Visigoths, A.D. 410. is a famous surprise attack, but it’d not like they literally hit every member of the Roman army before they realized they were being attacked; rather they just unexpectedly showed up at the gates of Rome and launched an attack.
> 
> Orochimaru showing up unexpectedly at a private meeting between Kabuto and Sasori is an ambush/surprise attack in the same exact way; regardless of whether Orochimaru presence becomes know prior, during, or after he physical launches his first actual attack.



Bad comparison. Sacking a city unprepared for is not really comparable to this scenario.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Bad comparison. Sacking a city unprepared for is not really comparable to this scenario.


How is it not comparable


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## Troyse22 (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I could careless if you think Kabuto could or couldn’t make an antidote. It doesn’t change the fact that this wasn’t a straightforward 1v1 & we don’t know how Orochimaru would have engaged Sasori here



What I'm saying is we know armless Oro is portrayed above Sasori period


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why would it not be mobile



For the same reason why sand wouldnt be. It wouldnt hold form/shape and turn into a goopy mess lol


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How is it not comparable



Also i dont see how its possible for Sasori to control the puppet in water either. It wouldnt be able to move right


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 29, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> AMBUSH
> make a surprise attack on (someone) from a concealed position.
> "they were ambushed and taken prisoner by the enemy"


As you can see in your own definition there, an ambush is a suprise attack, but specifically one from a concealed position.

Thus the sneaking is a separate thing from the suprise but the two of them together is an ambush.

So while its was an attack without warning (suprise attack) it was not a concealed attack (sneak attack).

Make sense?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 29, 2020)

Hi no Ishi said:


> So while its was an attack without warning (suprise attack)



There was no attack without warning.



Turrin said:


> How is it not comparable



Cities are not the same as ninja. Ninja are supposed to stay on their feet and always be ready.

Cities usually don't expect to be under siege, but you can tell me more if you want.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 29, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> I think you may need to see it again friend, because if you watch the fight Sakura was dodging and tagging some of Sasori's puppets



Yes, a of Sasori's... by Chiyo's *10 special puppets*, your point? Sasori also nearly kills Sakura (who took the hit for Chiyo, who got poisoned) right . 

And even then, .



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Even in some scenes it was 5 to 1 and she still dodged the puppets. Since you argue in favor that Chiyo was a huge help lets throw her in



Are you seriously trying to argue Chiyo _wasn't _a huge help? Wow. 



Chiyo literally USES Sakura as a puppet for a good portion of the fight. She's literally why Sakura survived Hiruko to begin with. 



And Chiyo saves Sakura right here again. This is also proof Sakura's earlier performance against Hiruko was to Chiyo's credit.






She's literally why Sakura survived against Hiruko, the  and the .

She was literally carrying Sakura the fight. She saves Sakura many times it's easy to lose count. Sasori even notes that Chiyo controlling Sakura is the problem here.  and only survives because she had an antidote. Chiyo also bailed her out against Sasori's... by Chiyo's *10 special puppets*, your point? Sasori also nearly kills Sakura (who took the hit for Chiyo, who got poisoned) right . 

And even then, . He would've won otherwise.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Chiyo with the mother/father puppet kept up with Sasori using his 3rd kazekage puppet and they traded equal blows





The Third Kazekage also . 

In other words, your ''hurr Sakura kept up with Sasori'' argument is bullshit.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> She was able to blitz start of shippuden Naruto without any puppets. While this is the same Naruto (with Sakura's help) could not tag base Kakashi when they were sparring



Okay, so? *I know Chiyo is fast*. Chiyo is faster than Kisame, yet Sasori was *at least as fast *if not a wee bit faster.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Also, Kakashi + Sharingan was able to perform a plan to defeat a 30% chakra clone Itachi while Lady Chiyo sat back and watched



Yes, and? Chiyo wasn't necessary, Kakashi and Naruto had it handled. Even then Chiyo helped Naruto break out of a Genjutsu.

There's also no proof 30% Itachi or 30% Kisame is slower than the real thing. They have the same bodies. 



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Also take into account that ill itachi >= Hebi Sasuke in speed



Irrelevant. Both >> Kisame in speed, so this doesn't help your argument.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Hebi Sasuke > Team 7 including Yamato



Irrelevant. All of Team 7 could individually hang with Kisame in speed (even Sakura) and Sasuke >> Kisame in speed.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Base Gai & Base Kakashi = Base Jiraiya



The_ fuck _does this have to do with anything? Base Guy and Base Kakashi are faster than Kisame lmao.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Base Jiraiya < 4 tails Naruto



This has nothing to do with speed specifically - you do know that, right? 

KN4 took Jiraiya by surprise and Jiraiya wasn't going all out as he didn't want to kill his disciple. 



Six Paths Scaling said:


> 4 tails Naruto < 5 tails Killer B



About the only correct thing you said. However...



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Kisame > 5 tails Killer B



This is bullshit. Kisame didn't keep up with Killer Bee, Samehada did - because Samehada liked Bee's chakra.

This will not happen against other opponents.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> For the sake of argument lets say that Sasori is faster than Lady Chiyo when using puppets, (although the fight says otherwise)



Um, ...your point? That proves he is at least as fast she is, maybe just a bit faster.

There's no way you can tell me with the listings above that Sasori would be able to keep up with Kisame

Yes, I can, as Chiyo and Sasori _both _> Kisame in speed (4.5 > 3.5). 



Six Paths Scaling said:


> You still havent answered what does Sasori have to counter Kisame's Water Prison Shark Dance Technique?



A) Kisame will likely die before that ever takes place. He nearly died against Bee before he got to use it. Against Sasori's poison, there will be no ''nearly''. A single scratch and Kisame dies. Samehada won't save him there.

B) Sasori could fly outside the Water Dome using Iron Sand.

C) Sasori could spread poison throughout the water. He could also likely hide some of his Red Secret Art puppets outside the Water Dome, trick Kisame into defeating his ''real body'', and then kill Kisame once the latter's guard is down by switching to those puppets.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 29, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> There was no attack without warning.


There quite literally was, though. 

He has no warning that  would  up or that  would attack him while Orochimaru followed up.
They literally had a  attack  the enemy knew nothing of until it happened AKA a suprise attack.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 29, 2020)

Are you seriously trying to argue Chiyo _wasn't _a huge help? Wow.

Literally no one here is saying that Lady Chiyo wasnt the reason Sasori was defeated other than you. Im stating the fight between Lady Chiyo and Sakura vs Sasori's 100 puppets. There are scenes showing that Sakura is dodging attacked from multiple puppets at once and even taking down a few of them. I literally never talked about any other parts of the whole fight, because i was talking about one character whos significantly weaker than Kisame being able to handle multiple of Sasori's puppets.

And where are you getting these numbers of their speed from? Im hoping you didnt pull it from the databooks because then that crumbled your whole argument.

If base Gai and Kakashi are faster than Kisame like you say they are, then with didnt Kakashi in part 1 blitz Kisame? Or why did Gai need to open up the 7th gate to handle Kisame?

And excuse me? Did you say Sasori is just gonna "fly" out of Kisame's Water Prison? First off the water revolves around Kisame so theres no escaping for Sasori. And theres no way you're gonna argue with me that in the water Sasori > Kisame fused with samehada.
Because not even Killer B could escape. Not to mention, what is a bit of poison going to do to a lake of water? Its not going to spread through all of it.

I forgot to mention, for every puppet that Sasori has in his arsenal, Kisame will just counter with his water sharks. Once Kisame makes a pool of water, he just uses his Water Style Super Shark Bomb Jutsu and one hits Sasori, and since it absorbs chakra, if Sasori tries to counter with iron sand or any of his puppets the attack just gets stronger and ultimately gives Kisame an easier win


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 29, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> There are scenes showing that Sakura is dodging attacked from multiple puppets at once and even taking down a few of them



Yes, while Chiyo was fighting the rest of them. Sasori had to focus on two opponents at the same time, which meant he couldn't attack Sakura or Chiyo alone as efficiently as he would have been able to otherwise. Not sure what's so difficult for you to understand.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> I literally never talked about any other parts of the whole fight, *because i was talking about one character whos significantly weaker than Kisame being able to handle multiple of Sasori's puppets*



You're conveniently ignoring that Sakura only dealt with like a few puppets (out of _one hundred_, maybe *ten at best*) and even then was protected by Chiyo both directly and indirectly. Those puppets are also a lot less impressive than Hiruko or the Third Kazekage individually. Against _those_ puppets, Sakura needed Chiyo to guide and protect her and would've very clearly died otherwise.

Also, Sakura would be able to handle Kisame in CQC as well if she had Chiyo's support.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> And where are you getting these numbers of their speed from? Im hoping you didnt pull it from the databooks because then that crumbled your whole argument



Imagine arguing that _Kishimoto's own words_ ''crumbled my whole argument''.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> If base Gai and Kakashi are faster than Kisame like you say they are, then with didnt Kakashi in part 1 blitz Kisame?



Bad argument. Itachi literally took over for Kisame against Kakashi, and Itachi certainly was faster than Kakashi. Also, people don't use their top speed all the time. This is why the Raikage is countered by Suigetsu one moment and blitzes Sage Juugo another moment.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Or why did Gai need to open up the 7th gate to handle Kisame?


.

More proof you don't even read the manga lol. .



Six Paths Scaling said:


> And excuse me? Did you say Sasori is just gonna "fly" out of Kisame's Water Prison? First off the water revolves around Kisame so theres no escaping for Sasori



You do realize Sasori can fly _before_ the Water Prison is created, right? Bad argument.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> And theres no way you're gonna argue with me that in the water Sasori > Kisame fused with samehada. Because not even Killer B could escape. Not to mention, what is a bit of poison going to do to a lake of water? Its not going to spread through all of it



Considering that a tiny bit of poison can kill with a scratch, ...

Also, Killer Bee couldn't use his full power against Kisame. Bad comparison. As is this whole A > B > C logic of yours...



Six Paths Scaling said:


> I forgot to mention, for every puppet that Sasori has in his arsenal, Kisame will just counter with his water sharks



The puppets are faster than featless water sharks. Also, they can fly.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Once Kisame makes a pool of water, he just uses his Water Style Super Shark Bomb Jutsu and one hits Sasori, and since it absorbs chakra, if Sasori tries to counter with iron sand or any of his puppets the attack just gets stronger and ultimately gives Kisame an easier win



Ah, yes, because that's super IC for Kisame to do in a fight lmao. Sasori can switch puppet bodies to escape being drained.

Kisame can win, but your arguments aren't very good. Sasori can realistically scratch and kill him way before.


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## Turrin (Jul 29, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> What I'm saying is we know armless Oro is portrayed above Sasori period


Yeah and I’m saying your method for coming to that conclusion is fundamentally flawed, as all we know is Orochimaru _thought_ he could win in an ambush scenario.


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## Turrin (Jul 29, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> There was no attack without warning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Soldiers are like Ninja and the Roman Soldiers were considered ambushed in that scenario even though they weren’t all hit with attacks before they saw the enemy coming. Your just adding a whole criteria to surprise attack which is non existent in how the word is used


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## Turrin (Jul 29, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> For the same reason why sand wouldnt be. It wouldnt hold form/shape and turn into a goopy mess lol


Sand has been mobile in water

Reactions: Like 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 29, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yes, while Chiyo was fighting the rest of them. Sasori had to focus on two opponents at the same time, which meant he couldn't attack Sakura or Chiyo alone as efficiently as he would have been able to otherwise. Not sure what's so difficult for you to understand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



quick one here I liked the scan you posted 

did kisame say he has known 2 other TAIJUTSU users or he has seen gai TAIJUTSU twice already 

which is the proper translation


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 29, 2020)

*Imagine arguing that _Kishimoto's own words_ ''crumbled my whole argument''.
And Kishimoto also stated that Itachi would beat Madara in a fight. A writer can say anything they want, but if it a complete 180 from what we see in a character from feats and hype in the show/manga then how are you supposed to take it seriously?

.
Surprise attack from Kisame? You do realize this was when Naruto found out Kisame was hiding in samehada lol. He never surprised attack Might Gai at all, matter of fact this version of Kisame is literally the weakest form of him we see at all, because he literally had no chakra at all. So invalid argument.

*You do realize Sasori can fly _before_ the Water Prison is created, right? Bad argument.
Yeah because of what we seen of Sasori he could just fly away to the moon before anyone can attack him.... righttttt. Like he was able to fly away before Sakura knocked him into pieces, oh wait.... 

*Considering that a tiny bit of poison can kill with a scratch, ...
*Also, Killer Bee couldn't use his full power against Kisame. Bad comparison. As is this whole A > B > C logic of yours...
And a tiny bit of poison is not going to be potent throughout a whole lake of water, and it doesnt matter because once Kisame fuses with samehada its over. Also, what evidence do we have that Sasori is able to even control his puppets in water? There is literally 0 evidence that supports that statement. Because from what we see is that whenever a character gets trapped in either water prison or water dome they are completely trapped and cant escape, example Kakashi vs Zabuza, and not to mention that Kisame has better control in water style than Zabuza does.

*The puppets are faster than featless water sharks. Also, they can fly.
The same water sharks that pushed Might Gai to open 6th gate because he was too overwhelmed, right thats featless alright. Compared to the 100 puppets that Sakura and Chiyo could take down no problem?

*Ah, yes, because that's super IC for Kisame to do in a fight lmao. Sasori can switch puppet bodies to escape being drained.
Kisame can win, but your arguments aren't very good. Sasori can realistically scratch and kill him way before.
If its in character then Sasori starts in Hiruko form, and the fight is 5m apart. What can Hiruko form Sasori accomplish before Kisame closes the gap on him. And once Kisame does, with one swing of his sword he cuts Sasori's chakra threads and smashes Hiruko. 
In the midst of Sasori hopping out of Hiruko to rethreading, lets say, his 3rd kazekage puppet, thats enough time for Kisame to flood the area with water and use hundreds of his water sharks or put Sasori in a water dome.


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## Lyren (Jul 29, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> did kisame say he has known 2 other TAIJUTSU users or he has seen gai TAIJUTSU twice already


the later.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 29, 2020)

Lyren said:


> the later.



It's the former, the viz translation has him saying "A Shinobi this skilled in Taijutsu is a rarity...although I've met two others"

Only explanation is Dai and Killer Bee, but Kisame never met Dai, perhaps he was just recalling the stories he heard about most of his 7SOTM being taken down.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 29, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> It's the former, the viz translation has him saying "A Shinobi this skilled in Taijutsu is a rarity...although I've met two others"
> 
> Only explanation is Dai and Killer Bee, but Kisame never met Dai, perhaps he was just recalling the stories he heard about most of his 7SOTM being taken down.



Kisame did not meet Gai dad though
Was he in the group that DAI died against ?

killer bee TAIJUTSU isn’t on the same level as Gai’s though

I dunno what’s your view on that ?


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 29, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> *Imagine arguing that _Kishimoto's own words_ ''crumbled my whole argument''.
> And Kishimoto also stated that Itachi would beat Madara in a fight. A writer can say anything they want, but if it a complete 180 from what we see in a character from feats and hype in the show/manga then how are you supposed to take it seriously?
> 
> .
> ...



Kishi never said itschi would beat Madara in a fight though

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Jul 29, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You're conveniently ignoring that Sakura only dealt with like a few puppets (out of _one hundred_, maybe *ten at best*)


actually, on panel, she only managed to hit 1 puppet  and a second later she was about to get killed by Sasori for the 20th time...


That's literally the only time Sakura hit one of the "red" puppets, and it's hardly a feat for her, cuz Sasori was busy dealing with Chiyo's 10, while at the same time, trying to blindside her and Sakura.
Sakura would get killed by only 1 of those puppets cuz Sasori doesn't move them with his fingers anymore, he only uses his mind. She wouldn't be able to read Sasori's movements.




Six Paths Scaling said:


> If its in character then Sasori starts in Hiruko form, and the fight is 5m apart.


Uh-huh, kinda the same distance between him and asuma, and asuma, of all people managed to scratch him...
Imagine Kisame dodging Hiruko's needles while standing only 5 meters away.





Six Paths Scaling said:


> Compared to the 100 puppets that Sakura and Chiyo could take down no problem?


wrong, Chiyo couldn't take them all down, in fact, she got blindsided and poisoned as soon as the battle started while trying to protect Sakura. Since Chiyo was poisoned and soon the poison would not allow her to control her puppets, she decided to seal Sasori's chakra so he couldn't control his puppets anymore.





Six Paths Scaling said:


> The same water sharks that pushed Might Gai to open 6th gate because he was too overwhelmed, right thats featless alright.


Why are you comparing sharks with puppets...
Sure, there're more sharks than puppets, but it's not like one of those sharks can take on a shinobi by itself.
1 Puppet when controlled by an experienced Puppet Master (such as Sasori or Chiyo) is more than enough to take on lots of ninja, if you consider the fact that said puppet has traps and poisoned weapons.




Six Paths Scaling said:


> What can Hiruko form Sasori accomplish before Kisame closes the gap on him.


Poison him with needles and call it a day, for example.




Six Paths Scaling said:


> with one swing of his sword he cuts Sasori's chakra threads


which are located on the puppets' back not infront of em...
It's not like Kisame can see the Chakra threads that are controlling Hiruko, right?



Six Paths Scaling said:


> and smashes Hiruko.


Sure, cuz I dunno why, but Hiruko will just stand there, huh? Cuz Hiruko can't even shunshin out of Kisame's range,...




Six Paths Scaling said:


> or put Sasori in a water dome.



Unlikely since Sasori is not a CQC fighter he would never get trapped inside water dome, and if he does, he automatically poisons the water and Kisame gets paralyzed and dies, cuz, Kisame doesn't know Sasori's real body is a puppet laced with gallons of poison, the IS is poisoned too, and Kisame has no way to know that. If a single scratch from a needle is enough to poison a ninja instantly and eventually, kill him, what would happen if Kisame "drinks" gallons of poison?!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jul 29, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Kisame did not meet Gai dad though
> Was he in the group that DAI died against ?
> 
> killer bee TAIJUTSU isn’t on the same level as Gai’s though
> ...






Troyse22 said:


> Kisame never met Dai, perhaps he was just recalling the stories he heard about most of his 7SOTM being taken down.



I know he didn't fight Dai.

He likely heard the stories from Fuguki as that was his leader, and he was there and survived, I forget how many of the 7SOTMs Dai killed, I think it was 5 

That accounts for one person Kisame implies he knows of

The only other we know that could he possibly be referring to is Killer Bee, it makes sense, Bee blew his entire torso open with a Taijutsu attack so it makes sense that he'd cite him as a very skilled Taijutsu expert.

Those are the only explanations.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Jul 29, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> killed, I think it was 5


He killed 4 of em but I dunno which ones.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Soldiers are like Ninja and the Roman Soldiers were considered ambushed in that scenario even though they weren’t all hit with attacks before they saw the enemy coming. Your just adding a whole criteria to surprise attack which is non existent in how the word is used



Bad argument. Ninja are expected to be prepared for combat all the time.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 30, 2020)

Charmed said:


> He killed 4 of em but I dunno which ones.



I thought it was just Raiga and Fuguki that lived, who was the third?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 30, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> And Kishimoto also stated that Itachi would beat Madara in a fight



This* never *happened. Don't make shit up to support your argument.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Surprise attack from Kisame?



Yes. , while Guy is spending time . The latter is not paying attention.
is where Guy counterattacks. Notice that Guy is literally looking the other way in the earlier scene.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> You do realize this was when Naruto found out Kisame was hiding in samehada lol. He never surprised attack Might Gai at all



The manga shows he did, so you're wrong.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> matter of fact this version of Kisame is literally the weakest form of him we see at all



Excuses. Guy was literally distracted a moment before and still reacted to Kisame's attack perfectly.

All things equal, Base Guy reacted to Kisame just fine with no issue. That's a matter of fact.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> because he literally had no chakra at all. So invalid argument



Yours is, yes. . Read the manga, noob.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> *You do realize Sasori can fly _before_ the Water Prison is created, right? Bad argument. Yeah because of what we seen of Sasori he could just fly away to the moon before anyone can attack him.... righttttt. Like he was able to fly away before Sakura knocked him into pieces, oh wait...



Sasori didn't even _have_ Iron Sand at the time Sakura - *with Chiyo's help* - ''knocked him into pieces''. What are you talking about?



Six Paths Scaling said:


> And a tiny bit of poison is not going to be potent throughout a whole lake of water



More ignorance. 



Six Paths Scaling said:


> and it doesnt matter because once Kisame fuses with samehada its over.
> 
> Also, what evidence do we have that Sasori is able to even control his puppets in water? There is literally 0 evidence that supports that statement.



What evidence do we have that Sasori can't control his puppets in water? Also, you do realize Sasori doesn't have to send his puppets into the water, right? Just attack with Iron Sand from a distance.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Because from what we see is that whenever a character gets trapped in either water prison or water dome they are completely trapped and cant escape, example Kakashi vs Zabuza, and not to mention that Kisame has better control in water style than Zabuza does



Irrelevant.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> The same water sharks that pushed Might Gai to open 6th gate because he was too overwhelmed, right thats featless alright



Exaggeration.

Guy wasn't ''too overwhelmed'', he needed to seek and destroy a shark containing an important scroll of intel before it left.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Compared to the 100 puppets that Sakura and Chiyo could take down no problem?



Sakura and Chiyo could take down those sharks too, your point?

Also, Chiyo > Base Guy and with Sakura's help, Chiyo would defeat Base Guy easily.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> If its in character then Sasori starts in Hiruko form, and the fight is 5m apart. What can Hiruko form Sasori accomplish before Kisame closes the gap on him. And once Kisame does, with one swing of his sword he cuts Sasori's chakra threads and smashes Hiruko



Bad arguments are bad. Getting close to Hiruko means Kisame gets stabbed and poisoned to death.

If fucking Asuma was able to cut Kisame and Neji was able to knock him away (with help), Hiruko very likely will poison him too.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> In the midst of Sasori hopping out of Hiruko to rethreading, lets say, his 3rd kazekage puppet, thats enough time for Kisame to flood the area with water



Cool. Flooding the area won't help Kisame at all though. He very likely gets run down and taken out by the Third Kazekage's attacks.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> and use hundreds of his water sharks or put Sasori in a water dome.



Sasori flies out of their reach using Iron Sand and showers them with projectiles from the sky.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

I don’t like all this sasori flies argument though
Considering no DB statement or feats show him flying 

Now even if sasori is caught in water dome it’s an irrelevant technique against him

Kisame by this point if he wasn’t been poisoned won’t even attempt getting close seeing that he would have experienced puppet traps and poison gas already 

If he is still silly he will swim close to try to drain sasori chakra 

if a little bit of ink caught him , poison gas will catch him and fill up the dome the same way ink did and kisame dies in the process


The only dangerous move here would be daikodan , if it had feats of destroying things say on par with FRS or something like that 

I lean towards sasori simply because it’s far more likely for sasori to scratch him than it is for kisame to land a finishing blow 

If people don’t get that then they will never understand 

if me and you fight and I only need to tap you with my finger anywhere on your body will you must punch my heart directly 

It makes sense I would tap you first


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## Turrin (Jul 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Bad argument. Ninja are expected to be prepared for combat all the time.


And Soldiers aren’t....

Realistically what is expected of someone doesn’t change the fact that what Orochimaru did would indeed be considered an ambush.


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## Charmed (Jul 30, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> I thought it was just Raiga and Fuguki that lived, who was the third?


I think it's possible that it was Hiramekarei's previous owner  (Chojuro's father?) and then he gave the blade to Chojuro!


That would make sense to me :'3


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## Charmed (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> I don’t like all this sasori flies argument though
> Considering no DB statement or feats show him flying


Well, he has those propellers which allow him to fly kinda like a helicopter.
In the page below, you can see how Sasori is actually flying cuz he can even change the direction (look at the cable near Sakura).
If Sasori couldn't fly, it would be impossible for him to change direction while in mid air.



The IS can be used to create wings as per canon in both NS and BNG




all three sands  (desert, gold and iron) can be used to create sand platforms.



Being a little creative, why not use magnetism to "levitate"? since magnetism >>>gravity.

So he actually has many ways to go airborne, which is OP considering the fact he can easily outrange his opponents and poison them form a safe distance.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Charmed said:


> Well, he has those propellers which allow him to fly kinda like a helicopter.
> In the page below, you can see how Sasori is actually flying cuz he can even change the direction (look at the cable near Sakura).
> If Sasori couldn't fly, it would be impossible for him to change direction while in mid air.
> 
> ...



Again no statement from author nor did the author show sasori doing that 
Thus he can’t use iron sand to fly and it truly doesn’t matter 

he doesn’t need to fly to win here


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## Turrin (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Again no statement from author nor did the author show sasori doing that
> Thus he can’t use iron sand to fly and it truly doesn’t matter
> 
> he doesn’t need to fly to win here


We saw all of Sasori puppets fly; and Sasori is one of his puppets; so yeah he can fly


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> We saw all of Sasori puppets fly; and Sasori is one of his puppets; so yeah he can fly



we also saw Chiyo puppets fly
Can she fly ?
Furthermore sasori puppets were flying after the 3rd puppet was defeated so it isn’t even linked to iron sand 

We also have no statement or feat that he can fly


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## Turrin (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> we also saw Chiyo puppets fly
> Can she fly ?
> Furthermore sasori puppets were flying after the 3rd puppet was defeated so it isn’t even linked to iron sand
> 
> We also have no statement or feat that he can fly


Chiyo isn’t a puppet; Sasori is


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## Charmed (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> we also saw Chiyo puppets fly
> Can she fly ?


yes they fly, no she can't fly cuz she doesn't have propellers, it's obvious...



MHA massive fan said:


> Again no statement from author


So I guess the author needs to state Gaara can fly otherwise he can't althou we've seen him doing so with his sand. Same applies to Shinki and some other characters as well. Guess the author should state they can swim as well, otherwise they'd drown immediaely underwater.



MHA massive fan said:


> Furthermore sasori puppets were flying after the 3rd puppet was defeated so it isn’t even linked to iron sand


cuz the Sandaime is levitating not only because Sasori is controlling him as a puppet but because of magnetism; Satestu users can gro wings to fly as per canon. You can't really deny that, nor you can't deny that magnetism beat gravity 24/7.



MHA massive fan said:


> We also have no statement or feat that he can fly


not needed, I literally posted several scans and in one of em, Sasori is literally flying towards Chiyo, for God's sake...

What is stopping Sasori from creating an IS platform? or he can even hover on top of one of those Satetsu blocks.
Just cuz he didn't create a plvtform on panel doesn't mean he can...
I remember back them when people thought the IS couldn't create Tsunamis nor shields nor spheres, but the manga, the anime, the databook and even boruto disagree.

Sure, Sasori doesn't even need Satetsu nor 100 Puppets nor his own body to win this macth. But can he fly? Ofc he can, one way or another. How many character have wings in this verse, huh?


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Chiyo isn’t a puppet; Sasori is



that sounds like a cheap excuse 
Kankuro puppets don’t fly and they are puppets


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Charmed said:


> yes they fly, no she can't fly cuz she doesn't have propellers, it's obvious...
> 
> 
> So I guess the author needs to state Gaara can fly otherwise he can't althou we've seen him doing so with his sand. Same applies to Shinki and some other characters as well. Guess the author should state they can swim as well, otherwise they'd drown immediaely underwater.
> ...



we have seen gaara fly so he can 

propellers those are common blades meant for cutting not flying 

flight isn’t the same thing as swimming in a manga where those with flight use a specific jutsu to fly 

nice try though

loving the head canon


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## Charmed (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> we have seen gaara fly so he can


concession accepted, since Gaara is a Jiton user and Satetsu being Jiton, was see Flying/levitating on panel.
Thank you so much <3!


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Charmed said:


> concession accepted, since Gaara is a Jiton user and Satetsu being Jiton, was see Flying/levitating on panel.
> Thank you so much <3!



asuma is a Katon user don’t mean he can use Kashin Koji jutsu 
Keep trying


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> And Soldiers aren’t....
> 
> Realistically what is expected of someone doesn’t change the fact that what Orochimaru did would indeed be considered an ambush.



No, soldiers entrusted to protect a stationary target (a town) aren't comparable to ninja on the move, no.

It's literally not an ambush going by the meaning of the word, but go on trying to push a round keg through a square hole.


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## Turrin (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> that sounds like a cheap excuse
> Kankuro puppets don’t fly and they are puppets


I fail to see how sasori being a puppet and Chiyo is not is a cheap excuse lol; and Kankuro’s puppets aren’t Sasori’s. We’ve seen all of Sasori Puppets fly

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> asuma is a Katon user don’t mean he can use Kashin Koji jutsu
> Keep trying



Dude, you're comparing apples and oranges here. All we're saying is that Sasori can do something he's already done in the manga. Remember his floating Iron Sand block against Sakura? Gaara's ability to fly was literally one of his basic Shukaku powers and the Third Kazekage's Iron Sand style was built based on the Shukaku Jinchuriki's fighting style.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I fail to see how sasori being a puppet and Chiyo is not is a cheap excuse lol; and Kankuro’s puppets aren’t Sasori’s. We’ve seen all of Sasori Puppets fly



which doesn’t mean he can is what I am saying 

We know the puppets floating is not linked to 3rd puppet


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Dude, you're comparing apples and oranges here. All we're saying is that Sasori can do something he's already done in the manga. Remember his floating Iron Sand block against Sakura? Gaara's ability to fly was literally one of his basic Shukaku powers and the Third Kazekage's Iron Sand style was built based on the Shukaku Jinchuriki's fighting style.



which doesn’t mean he can fly 
I am not doubting he can use iron sand 

Ok now can gaara turn his sand into spears and fight like sasori did ? Would that be at all something he would opt to do ?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> which doesn’t mean he can fly
> I am not doubting he can use iron sand



Look at my post again. Sasori can make his Iron Sand constructs fly. Therefore, Iron Sand can fly. Therefore, Sasori can fly.



MHA massive fan said:


> Ok now can gaara turn his sand into spears and fight like sasori did ? Would that be at all something he would opt to do ?



I mean, yes? Why couldn't Gaara do that? Lmao. Gaara's manipulated his sand into all sorts of shapes, even in Part I.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Look at my post again. Sasori can make his Iron Sand constructs fly. Therefore, Iron Sand can fly. Therefore, Sasori can fly.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, yes? Why couldn't Gaara do that? Lmao. Gaara's manipulated his sand into all sorts of shapes, even in Part I.



Again I am not saying it’s impossible for sasori to do it
I am saying it’s entirely irrelevant for him to do so and is not the way he fights 

in the same way gaara will keep trying to crush and grab his enemy Vs showering them with sand senbon isn’t that what he did against deidara ?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Again I am not saying it’s impossible for sasori to do it
> I am saying it’s entirely irrelevant for him to do so and is not the way he fight



But if Sasori needs to do it (and he will if Kisame starts trying to flood the place), he will.



MHA massive fan said:


> in the same way gaara will keep trying to crush and grab his enemy Vs showering them with sand senbon isn’t that what he did against deidara ?



I mean, Gaara would use Sand Senbon if he ever felt the need to...you remember he did use sand bullets against Madara, right?


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> But if Sasori needs to do it (and he will if Kisame starts trying to flood the place), he will.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, Gaara would use Sand Senbon if he ever felt the need to...you remember he did use sand bullets against Madara, right?



why if kisame floods the place
Why does that matter to sasori ?

he can’t drown, it changes nothing at all in regards to their fight 

iron sand will move just fine in water , poison will spread well in water seeing what a little ink did, it covered the dome entirely 


Sasori has no reason to want to fly . He is happy in water even, he can’t drown


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> why if kisame floods the place
> Why does that matter to sasori ?



Because that gives Kisame the ground advantage lol. The Water Dome in particular would be an issue.



MHA massive fan said:


> iron sand will move just fine in water , poison will spread well in water seeing what a little ink did, it covered the dome entirely



Agreed.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Because that gives Kisame the ground advantage lol. The Water Dome in particular would be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.



Why would water dome be an issue??


sasori doesn’t need to breathe , his puppets would move just fine in water and he would happily poison the water dome 

I don’t get this logic here 

sasori is one of the best counters against water dome , he straight up ignores it


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Why would water dome be an issue??
> 
> 
> sasori doesn’t need to breathe , his puppets would move just fine in water and he would happily poison the water dome
> ...



Kisame could steal Sasori's chakra inside the Water Dome.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kisame could steal Sasori's chakra inside the Water Dome.



do please explain how he manages that
He needs to come in contact with sasori

coming close to a puppet user is not smart not when he can simply spread poison

I mean bee ink got in kisame face , why can’t a poison canister do the same thing ?

Kisame swims in with confidence , sasori pops his arm open and shoots some poison in the water GG

or are we using head canon where the water itself steals Chakra ? Cuz there I’ll leave the convo as nothing in DB or manga supports that


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> This* never *happened. Don't make shit up to support your argument.
> -I never "made that shit up" just look it up its talked about everywhere.
> 
> 
> ...


-Here we go with the "Sasori flying" argument thats being posted alot. This is just more headcannon. No evidence supports that Sasori can fly. I rewatched the fight and Sasori is still in the open cave with them when throwing iron sand projectiles at them. And dont say puppet body Sasori was "flying". He was on on top of the long wire attached to him that kept him in the air. Thats why when Sakura grabbed it and gave a little wank Sasori didnt continue to "fly" at Chiyo anymore, it was the wire that kept him 1 foot above the air. Its like saying Orochimaru could "fly" in his fight against 4 tails Naruto because he extended his neck so far into the air he was able to send Naruto across the forest. Thats not flying.

Also, you have literally 0 counter to Daikoden, whether Sasori throws his puppets or iron sand at it, they will only make Kisame's attack stronger, Sasori has no counter to it at all, which is why Kisame is beyond kage level while Sasori is low/mid kage level at best.

And i hate to break it to you, but Sasori lost to Chiyo and Sakura, and dont use the argument that they had a counter for everything Sasori threw at them, because Deidara was in the same scenario, an even worse scenario to be honest, when he faught an even stronger opponent than Sasori, (Hebi Sasuke) and performed way better than Sasori ever did in his fight. Cant use the argument either that he wanted to die, its only speculation, and not to mention it was only referring to Chiyo's FINAL attack, nothing prior.

Meanwhile, it took a 7th gate Guy (arguable the strongest character at this point in the show) to stop Kisame. And not to mention Guy's Hirodura is one of a couple of ways to even counter Daikoden. Something Sasori, also doesnt have.

Sasori has nothing to take Kisame down other than poison, and even then he'd have to actually HIT Kisame, which would never happen because Kisame could just spam water release techniques that would stop any puppet or senbon or attack in its place.

Theres a reason Kisame took down a majority of the jinchuriki while Sasori took down none. Sasori is a cool character but the wank he gets is just ridiculous, when a character like start of shippuden Neji could probably beat him.

Kisame wins 10/10 times


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## Charmed (Jul 30, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> And i hate to break it to you, but Sasori lost to Chiyo and Sakura,


 




Six Paths Scaling said:


> No evidence supports that Sasori can fly.


the guy literally has wind blades, looks like a helicopter, is a puppet but he can't fly, wut?!
also, the IS itself levitates due to magnetism, so yeah, flying, levitating, hovering, whatever you call it, he can do it.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> And dont say puppet body Sasori was "flying". He was on on top of the long wire attached to him that kept him in the air.


uh-huh and as you can clearly see in the page I posted above, he can change directions in mid air. If he couldn't fly, how did he do that then? Do tell!



Six Paths Scaling said:


> This is just more headcannon.



and all this is written in stone, I believe? :




Six Paths Scaling said:


> Sasori has nothing to take Kisame down other than poison, and even then he'd have to actually HIT Kisame,





Six Paths Scaling said:


> which would never happen because Kisame could just spam water release techniques





Six Paths Scaling said:


> Theres a reason Kisame took down a majority of the jinchuriki





Six Paths Scaling said:


> Cant use the argument either that he wanted to die, its only speculation, and not to mention it was only referring to Chiyo's FINAL attack, nothing prior.





Six Paths Scaling said:


> because Deidara was in the same scenario, an even worse scenario to be honest,





Six Paths Scaling said:


> when he faught an even stronger opponent than Sasori, (Hebi Sasuke)





Six Paths Scaling said:


> and performed way better than Sasori ever did in his fight.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 30, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> -Here we go with the "Sasori flying" argument thats being posted alot. This is just more headcannon. No evidence supports that Sasori can fly. I rewatched the fight and Sasori is still in the open cave with them when throwing iron sand projectiles at them. And dont say puppet body Sasori was "flying". He was on on top of the long wire attached to him that kept him in the air. Thats why when Sakura grabbed it and gave a little wank Sasori didnt continue to "fly" at Chiyo anymore, it was the wire that kept him 1 foot above the air. Its like saying Orochimaru could "fly" in his fight against 4 tails Naruto because he extended his neck so far into the air he was able to send Naruto across the forest. Thats not flying



I like how you haven't even addressed the arguments I or others have made. Sasori literally shows he can make Iron Sand float (aka fly)  against Sakura. , and the . Put two and two together - and anyone knows Sasori can fly.

Your stupid ''examples'' don't even address my argument. Stop putting words in my mouth.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Also, you have literally 0 counter to Daikoden, whether Sasori throws his puppets or iron sand at it, they will only make Kisame's attack stronger, Sasori has no counter to it at all



Fanfiction. I'll address ''Daikoden'' in this very post, a few quotes later.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> which is why Kisame is beyond kage level while Sasori is low/mid kage level at best



Ah, that's why Kisame gets scratched by scrub characters that get killed by the likes of Hidan...oh wait lol.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> And i hate to break it to you, but Sasori lost to Chiyo and Sakura



And Kisame got maimed by fucking *Asuma *of all people as well as put in a Genjutsu by Kurenai. Chiyo alone > either of them. 

He ran like a bitch the moment he fought an ACTUAL Kage level ninja, which was Jiraiya, and needed Itachi to save his butt.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> and dont use the argument that they had a counter for everything Sasori threw at them



That's not even my argument, but keep putting words in my mouth. Anyone who is remotely intelligent can see they had a buttload of advantages in that fight: A) They had prep time in the form of two antidotes, B) They had the numerical advantage (2-to-1) and C) Sasori literally *threw* the damn fight. No one in this manga has had a fight more blatantly rigged against them.

And Sasori* still *nearly killed Sakura and Chiyo both. It's clear he's above them as a *duo*, let alone individually. Hiruko would solo one.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> because Deidara was in the same scenario, an even worse scenario to be honest, when he faught an even stronger opponent than Sasori, (Hebi Sasuke) and performed way better than Sasori ever did in his fight



Horrible fucking argument. 

*Link Removed*. Sasuke's elemental advantage over Deidara was balanced out by _Deidara's range advantage (Sasuke is a short to mid range fighter mainly and Deidara is a long range fighter who can fly) _and his Sharingan's ability to see chakra was balanced out by _Deidara's anti-Genjutsu eye (the most BS plot device that ever existed)_.

Deidara lost to Sasuke in spite of Sasuke being seriously handicapped by lack of killing intent. Sasori only lost a fight that was _horribly stacked _against him because he* chose *to throw in the towel. Kisame had trouble with a fucking Jinchuriki - the person he's _*built*_ to counter - Sasori is able to fend off people who are prepared for his abilities and skilled in countering them. 



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Cant use the argument either that he wanted to die, its only speculation, and not to mention it was only referring to Chiyo's FINAL attack, nothing prior



Yeah, I think *Chiyo* knows Sasori better than you do, sorry. The manga put that out there for a reason.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Meanwhile, it took a 7th gate Guy (arguable the strongest character at this point in the show) to stop Kisame



Fanfiction. Guy wasn't even trying to stop Kisame (he wasn't even trying to_ kill _Kisame) so much as Kisame's _sharks_.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> And not to mention Guy's Hirodura is one of a couple of ways to even counter Daikoden. Something Sasori, also doesnt have



Thank goodness Sasori can switch bodies with other released puppets, kill Kisame before ''Daikoden'' ever comes out, fly out of the way using Iron Sand, use chakra strings that are invisible to mess Kisame's handseals up if close enough, etc.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Sasori has nothing to take Kisame down other than poison, and even then he'd have to actually HIT Kisame



Not at all a hard thing to do. Asuma tagged Kisame and Sasori's attacks are even harder to avoid.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> which would never happen because Kisame could just spam water release techniques that would stop any puppet or senbon or attack in its place.
> 
> Theres a reason Kisame took down a majority of the jinchuriki while Sasori took down none



Yes, it's because *Kisame is tailor made to fight the Tailed Beasts*. He is literally a perfect counter to their abilities.

That has nothing to do with Sasori, who is_ not _a Tailed Beast or a Jinchuriki. We also don't know Sasori ''took down none''. 

Man, your arguments are absolute trash, and I've seen a lot of trash arguments - especially from Kisame stans. Yours is even worse.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Kisame is a cool character but the wank he gets is just ridiculous, when a character like start of shippuden Neji could probably beat him.



Fixed for you. Kisame consistently gets scratched by his opponents, some of who aren't even as fast or deadly as Sasori. Neji would get his butt kicked against* Hiruko* alone (and for that matter, Kisame would lose to Hiruko too - there's a chance).



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Sasori wins 10/10 times



Fixed for you.


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## Turrin (Jul 31, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> which doesn’t mean he can is what I am saying
> 
> We know the puppets floating is not linked to 3rd puppet


Huh, if he’s a puppet and all his puppets flew; then why can’t he....


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## t0xeus (Jul 31, 2020)

Waterdome hard counters. Kisame takes it.

Kisame dodges any attacks (since he swims extremely fast and Sasori's fingers and body will move much slower underwater).
Poison gets dilluted in water, ie becomes harmless.
Kisame can just hug Sasori and sap him off chakra.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 31, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Waterdome hard counters. Kisame takes it.
> 
> Kisame dodges any attacks (since he swims extremely fast and Sasori's fingers and body will move much slower underwater).
> Poison gets dilluted in water, ie becomes harmless.
> Kisame can just hug Sasori and sap him off chakra.



how does water dome counter 
Explain please
Sasori can’t drown and can Poison his water 

I don’t understand people who think water dome is a threat to sasori in the slightest


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 31, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> -Here we go with the "Sasori flying" argument thats being posted alot. This is just more headcannon. No evidence supports that Sasori can fly. I rewatched the fight and Sasori is still in the open cave with them when throwing iron sand projectiles at them. And dont say puppet body Sasori was "flying". He was on on top of the long wire attached to him that kept him in the air. Thats why when Sakura grabbed it and gave a little wank Sasori didnt continue to "fly" at Chiyo anymore, it was the wire that kept him 1 foot above the air. Its like saying Orochimaru could "fly" in his fight against 4 tails Naruto because he extended his neck so far into the air he was able to send Naruto across the forest. Thats not flying.
> 
> Also, you have literally 0 counter to Daikoden, whether Sasori throws his puppets or iron sand at it, they will only make Kisame's attack stronger, Sasori has no counter to it at all, which is why Kisame is beyond kage level while Sasori is low/mid kage level at best.
> 
> ...



asuma could hit kisame just fine , as could neji, as could lee , as could base gai as cool a jobbing killer bee 

all sasori needs is a scratch 

what are daikodan feats or hype to suggest it can even kill sasori or can’t simply be side stepped 

please provide me with information the author gave to justify this stance please no head canon 

and yes I won’t say sasori can’t fly either because my thoughts on it are irrelevant


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 31, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> asuma could hit kisame just fine , as could neji, as could lee , as could base gai as cool a jobbing killer bee
> 
> all sasori needs is a scratch
> 
> ...



-Im not only gonna address my argument to you only but also all the other kind folks who responded to my previous replies-
1. Again, you fail to mention that in those scenarios the Kisame that got tagged in he was never in full power, via part 1 Kisame and 30% chakra clone Kisame.
2. Daikodan works just like a regular water shark but much more larger and much more stronger, where as its almost sentient like. So if Sasori tries to run it would simply chase. If you rewatch the fight the evidence is shown when Kisame's Daikodan is having its own fight with Guy's Hirudora.
3. water dome is a threat to Sasori, although he may not need the ability to breathe, theres no evidence that shows that he can either A) swim or B) use puppets under water. Evidence is that Sasori lacks the bones and muscles that humans have that helps them move fluidly in water to keep them afloat. Sasori would be immobile under water, he'd just sink. And no panel shows Sasori using puppets under water so if you argue he can its headcannon.
4. If Sasori was caught in a water prison or water dome, you guys know Kisame could just summon infinite sharks until Sasori is taken down right?
5. Yes Sasori only needs a scratch, but if you guys did time to research Kisame's known jutsus you would know that he can counter everything that Sasori throws at him. From puppets to senbon to iron sand Kisame can just throw his water style techniques at Sasori and his attacks get countered in their place. 
6. the fight starts off 5m away. Kisame is a CQC fighter, meanwhile Sasori is the complete opposite. Kisame is at a HUGE advantage with the fight starting 5m away. Not to mention that Sasori is starting off in Hiruko form, literally the weakest version we see of Sasori. Kisame just has to trap him in a water dome and summon water sharks and the fight is over in seconds.
7. poison does in fact get diluted in water if the body of water is hundreds of times larger than the sample of poison being used.
8. all of Sasori's other puppets "fly" because he is controlling them in the air, just think of how a kite is used. A puppet and a puppeteer works the same way, example being that Kankuro had instances where he could also control his puppets in the air too.
9. only controversial one is Sasori's puppet body, and i still stand by my statement saying its pretty headcannon to assume that he can fly in that form, considering we've never seen it. "But what about the propellers on his back?" They are simply blades. Just think of the example you guys keep talking about Sasori and compare it to Orochimaru, because they have similar instances. Sasori uses his wire the way Orochimaru uses his extended neck to launch towards his enemies and keep his head afloat in the air, except Orochimaru was used at a greater scheme. That is why once Sakura caught Sasori by the wire he didnt simply just kept on "flying" at Chiyo, he stopped in his place and got yanked in the other direction by Sakura.
10. I like Sasori as a character, but he's outmatched by Kisame. To simply put it, Kisame would be the strongest character Sasori has ever fought against, while Kisame went up against characters that are out of Sasori's league


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 1, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> -Im not only gonna address my argument to you only but also all the other kind folks who responded to my previous replies-
> 1. Again, you fail to mention that in those scenarios the Kisame that got tagged in he was never in full power, via part 1 Kisame and 30% chakra clone Kisame



How was P1 Kisame not at full power? How is 30% Kisame slower? They have the same bodies. Stop making shit up.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> 2. Daikodan works just like a regular water shark but much more larger and much more stronger, where as its almost sentient like. So if Sasori tries to run it would simply chase. If you rewatch the fight the evidence is shown when Kisame's Daikodan is having its own fight with Guy's Hirudora



I see no proof of ''sentient like'' stuff anywhere.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> 3. water dome is a threat to Sasori, although he may not need the ability to breathe, theres no evidence that shows that he can either



Can what, exactly? His heart is literally his only human organ. He doesn't even have lungs lmao. You can't suffocate him.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> A) swim or B) use puppets under water. Evidence is that Sasori lacks the bones and muscles that humans have that helps them move fluidly in water to keep them afloat. Sasori would be immobile under water, he'd just sink. And no panel shows Sasori using puppets under water so if you argue he can its headcannon



If you argue water would affect him, that too is headcanon. Sasori can also fly to evade the Water Dome.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> If Sasori was caught in a water prison or water dome, you guys know Kisame could just summon infinite sharks until Sasori is taken down right?



Won't work against Iron Sand or if Sasori, y'know, flies.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> 5. Yes Sasori only needs a scratch, but if you guys did time to research Kisame's known jutsus you would know that he can counter everything that Sasori throws at him. From puppets to senbon to iron sand Kisame can just throw his water style techniques at Sasori and his attacks get countered in their place



Too bad Sasori's attacks are way faster than anything Kisame's got.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> 6. the fight starts off 5m away. Kisame is a CQC fighter, meanwhile Sasori is the complete opposite



Fanfiction. Both Kisame and Sasori have a 4.5 in Taijutsu, IIRC. *Asuma was able to tag Kisame and land a scratch* using similar stats and you think Sasori won't...why, exactly? A single scratch will win this fight on its own.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Kisame is at a HUGE advantage with the fight starting 5m away. Not to mention that Sasori is starting off in Hiruko form, literally the weakest version we see of Sasori



Hiruko is enough to beat Kisame. Kisame isn't evading Hiruko's poison cluster bomb. If Asuma tagged him, that will too.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Kisame just has to trap him in a water dome and summon water sharks and the fight is over in seconds



Kisame doesn't start fights like that, sorry. And good luck trapping a flying opponent.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> poison does in fact get diluted in water if the body of water is hundreds of times larger than the sample of poison being used



Too bad Sasori's poison is extremely concentrated to the point a single scratch can kill and his Iron Sand attacks are poisoned.

And huge.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> all of Sasori's other puppets "fly" because he is controlling them in the air, just think of how a kite is used. A puppet and a puppeteer works the same way, example being that Kankuro had instances where he could also control his puppets in the air too



So you agree Sasori can fly too?



Six Paths Scaling said:


> To simply put it, Kisame would be the strongest character Sasori has ever fought against



Kisame got maimed by fucking Asuma and put in a Genjutsu by Kurenai, bro. Sasori took on a Jonin as strong as either PLUS Sakura plus prep time...and still only barely lost *because he decided to throw the fight*. Kisame's only win in the manga came against a severely handicapped Killer Bee who his skillset is literally tailor made to fight otherwise (Samehada is super effective against Gyuki).

Kisame being stronger than Sasori doesn't mean he'll win 100% of the time or even most of the time. Matchups matter. This is not DBZ, bro - get out of here with that ''lol Kisame stronger so he wins'' lol bullshit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> -Im not only gonna address my argument to you only but also all the other kind folks who responded to my previous replies-
> 1. Again, you fail to mention that in those scenarios the Kisame that got tagged in he was never in full power, via part 1 Kisame and 30% chakra clone Kisame.
> 2. Daikodan works just like a regular water shark but much more larger and much more stronger, where as its almost sentient like. So if Sasori tries to run it would simply chase. If you rewatch the fight the evidence is shown when Kisame's Daikodan is having its own fight with Guy's Hirudora.
> 3. water dome is a threat to Sasori, although he may not need the ability to breathe, theres no evidence that shows that he can either A) swim or B) use puppets under water. Evidence is that Sasori lacks the bones and muscles that humans have that helps them move fluidly in water to keep them afloat. Sasori would be immobile under water, he'd just sink. And no panel shows Sasori using puppets under water so if you argue he can its headcannon.
> ...



Why wasn’t kisame at full power in part 1? Let’s solve this delusion first

Why wasn’t he against Bee? His moves are  meant to drain and by his own words he found the 4th tail tough

the rest is delusion sasori does not need to swim , his puppets float just fine . He can sink and have a laugh in water dome for the sport of it


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How was P1 Kisame not at full power? How is 30% Kisame slower? They have the same bodies. Stop making shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You either Bored or have unmatched patience 
100% of what the guy said is head canon. why address that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 1, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How was P1 Kisame not at full power? How is 30% Kisame slower? They have the same bodies. Stop making shit up.
> -Wow. This just tops it all. Please explain to me what feats part 2 Kisame uses that are shown by him in part 1? Theres no evidence proving that Kisame knew the jutsus i listed below in part 1, like theres no evidence proving Itachi had susanoo in part 1, either. Therefore part 1 versions of Kisame and Itachi are weaker than what we see in shippuden.
> 30% clone Kisame same as his full power body? Youre right, you got me. So you can agree that Naruto and Kakashi > Itachi. Doesnt matter if they defeated an Itachi 30% clone, they have the same bodies, right?
> 
> ...


-Ive made multiple arguments as to why I believe Kisame would win the fight. You on the other hand, have never tried to rebuttal some of my arguments. Instead you keep spamming the same replies after replies, from 'hurr Asuma hit Kisame so this will happen', to 'weeeee Sasori can fly although i have no evidence to support it'. You have no counter to Daikodan or Water Prison. You fail to prove evidence that Sasori can fly, or swim, or that he would be capable of using puppets under water. You failed to acknowledge that Sasori is a long range fighter and Kisame is a CQC, and that the fight starts 5m apart. Instead you went on an tangent about Asuma again. If Lady Chiyo and Sakura can dodge Hiruko Sasori's poison cluster bomb close range then Kisame will have no problem, and to state that he wouldnt be able to would mean you believe Lady Chiyo & Sakura > Kisame, which is just asinine. For every puppet Sasori has Kisame can create 5 times as many water sharks. Kisame can literally summon a tsunami of a wave and throw it at Sasori's direction alongside hundreds of water sharks and theres nothing Sasori could do about it. Samehada can cut through Iron Sand because chakra is what keeps the sand together, and samehada eats chakra of course. Hiruko doesnt use a poison cloud like the 3rd kazekage puppet uses, so he cant use that right off the bat. And even if you wanted, you stated yourself Sasori and his puppets would keep his distance away from Kisame and spam iron sand, so no poison cloud can be used from Sasori there. And in that case.... Daikodan. Sorry friendo, Sasori can not beat Kisame.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

For the love of God water prison is useless against someone who doesn’t need to breathe or swim away 
Burden of evidence is on you to prove his puppets would stop floating because of the water. Which you can prove

even if they can’t , then him and kisame stare at each other till kisame comes close and gets poison gassed

sasori can sit in water dome for decades and not give a darn


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 1, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Why wasn’t kisame at full power in part 1? Let’s solve this delusion first
> -Why wasnt he? Its like saying part 1 Itachi and shippuden Itachi are the same although one has known access to susanoo and the other version doesnt. We do not have knowledge that Kisame has access to all the jutsus that ive listed, because hes never used them, therefore they are restriced from part 1 Kisame. Like you can not make the argument that Might Guy could have fought Orochimaru instead of Hiruzen by opening the 7th gate, no. He was never seen to open any of the gates this point on in the show, therefore arguing that he could is wrong.
> 
> Why wasn’t he against Bee? His moves are  meant to drain and by his own words he found the 4th tail tough
> ...


-so you just.... gave Kisame the win then, you realize this, right? If Sasori just sinks to the bottom Kisame can fuse with samehada and blitz Sasori and the fight is over. So thank you for supporting my argument?


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## Sloan (Aug 1, 2020)

Tough battle.  Kisa-may do it


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 1, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> For the love of God water prison is useless against someone who doesn’t need to breathe or swim away
> Burden of evidence is on you to prove his puppets would stop floating because of the water. Which you can prove
> 
> even if they can’t , then him and kisame stare at each other till kisame comes close and gets poison gassed
> ...


-uhm i kinda feel that you're a bit confused, because him being stuck in a water prison IS a problem. Kisame at this point can summon hundreds of water sharks that would just take down Sasori. You know this right? Kisame doesnt physically have to get close to Sasori lol.
So again, you kinda just help my case in describing why Kisame would in fact, beat Sasori!


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> -so you just.... gave Kisame the win then, you realize this, right? If Sasori just sinks to the bottom Kisame can fuse with samehada and blitz Sasori and the fight is over. So thank you for supporting my argument?




Then kisame must come close and gets poison in the face if a little ink covered the dome so would poison 

so yes I just said kisame gets himself killed


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> -uhm i kinda feel that you're a bit confused, because him being stuck in a water prison IS a problem. Kisame at this point can summon hundreds of water sharks that would just take down Sasori. You know this right? Kisame doesnt physically have to get close to Sasori lol.
> So again, you kinda just help my case in describing why Kisame would in fact, beat Sasori!



i need scans of kisame summoning 1000 of sharks in water dome because that’s not the purpose of the jutsu

aren’t you tired of head canon

i can say Itachi can use Tsukuyomi , Amaterasu , throw yasaka beads and swing Totsuka at the same time for the lolz can’t I

because we have seen that right ?

or sasori uses thé 298 puppets one of which has genjutsu and fucks over kisame

head canon is easy


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 1, 2020)

Kisame wins.

Water Dome physically obliterates puppets due to the immense water pressure that transpires due to submergence, and he's physically 5 enough to shatter the puppets himself, as he was physically contesting Killer Bee, and put Ponta, a gargantuan 86 square foot bear on his ass with a single Samehada slash, sans the many occasions his physical power has been on display in this Manga like being a 30% of himself and legitimately manhandling Team Gai physically, and Gai possessed his legendary Soshūga that physically contested a goddamn spiritual tool in Obito's Gunbai, avoiding a Kamūi warp attempt simultaneously, and implicitly garnered compliments from KCM Naruto who was soloing Kage Lvls w/o the slightest hint of difficulty sans Mū who conveniently happened to be the greatest fighter that opposed the SA on the side of ET.

This implicates that 100% Kisame is like 1000x the power totality contrasted with KCM Naruto, as he accomplished such magnificent features, w/o the assimilation of his additional 60% fragment.

Either (Samehada or Kisame's) of thier physical absorption skillsets outright strips Sasori's puppet chakra strings not to mention the gargantuan extreme water pressure comprised of chakra implicitly obliterates them, and 1,000 Shark Explosive technique eats thier chakra reserves the instance thier teeth is physically placed on puppet chakra strings.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Sage light said:


> Kisame wins.
> 
> Water Dome physically obliterates puppets due to the immense water pressure that transpires due to submergence, and he's physically 5 enough to shatter the puppets himself, as he was physically contesting Killer Bee, and put Ponta, a gargantuan 86 square foot bear on his ass with a single Samehada slash, sans the many occasions his physical power has been on display in this Manga like being a 30% of himself and legitimately manhandling Team Gai physically, and Gai possessed his legendary Soshūga that physically contested a goddamn spiritual tool in Obito's Gunbai, avoiding a Kamūi warp attempt simultaneously, and implicitly garnered compliments from KCM Naruto who was soloing Kage Lvls w/o the slightest hint of difficulty sans Mū who conveniently happened to be the greatest fighter that opposed the SA on the side of ET.
> 
> ...



immense water pressure 
 
So immense the author made no mention of it 

killer bee said nothing to any pressure he was under and swam just fine


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## t0xeus (Aug 1, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> how does water dome counter
> Explain please
> Sasori can’t drown and can Poison his water
> 
> I don’t understand people who think water dome is a threat to sasori in the slightest


Reread my post then if you quote it. All your concerns were literally addressed there even before you typed your post.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Reread my post then if you quote it. All your concerns were literally addressed there even before you typed your post.



I’ll skip as it certainly contains nothing the author said in manga or DB
Thus it’s irrelevant

bee ink covered kisame dome
Poison will as well only difference is that kills kisame. Ink wasn’t diluted to the point when the dome burst , kisame still had ink on his body 

strangely I got panels to show ink covered the Dome, ink in a similar size and dispersal method to sasori poison.

the whole his fingers would be slowed down he can’t swim is all head canon. Killer bee swam just fine and actually never mentioned being slowed down by water only kisame being faster was mentioned

if you gonna claim you have countered a point use specific instances in the manga or DB statements


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## t0xeus (Aug 1, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> I’ll skip as it certainly contains nothing the author said in manga or DB
> Thus it’s irrelevant


As you wish.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> As you wish.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

A lot of you guys are putting forth bad arguments

Water pressure? Like what? This is never stated or implied to be a thing with his WD. It's village sized, not ocean sized.

Kisames attacks being slower than Sasoris is also bullshit. They were being evaded by fucking BOS Sakura  Kisame on the other hand put fucking Might Gai on the backfoot while Kisame was 30%. Id argue Kisame just blitzes Sasori

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> A lot of you guys are putting forth bad arguments
> 
> Water pressure? Like what? This is never stated or implied to be a thing with his WD. It's village sized, not ocean sized.
> 
> Kisames attacks being slower than Sasoris is also bullshit. They were being evaded by fucking BOS Sakura  Kisame on the other hand put fucking Might Gai on the backfoot while Kisame was 30%. Id argue Kisame just blitzes Sasori



you know what I am impressed not bad 

it’s a bad argument 

so WHats your view here ? How does kisame not get poisoned in the dome considering a little bit of ink covered the entire dome ?

not how the entire battle plays out just this specific scenario


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> How does kisame not get poisoned in the dome considering a little bit of ink covered the entire dome ?



This is of course operating under the assumption that he needs Waterdome here right?

It wasn't a little bit of ink, Bee was spitting out tons of it 

Also, ink is made to spread in water, it's tailor made to be effective underwater, where's the proof that Sasoris poison shares those same traits? That's baseless asf

The Waterdome washes it away or dillutes it.

And poison isn't a death sentence for Kisame regardless. He can keep regenerating through it. Iirc Sasoris poison works by destroying the cells of the victims organs, Kisame hardcounters this with his Regen.

But all of this is moot, Kisame just blitzes Sasori, rips his heart from his chest and eats it


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> A lot of you guys are putting forth bad arguments
> 
> Water pressure? Like what? This is never stated or implied to be a thing with his WD. It's village sized, not ocean sized.
> 
> Kisames attacks being slower than Sasoris is also bullshit. They were being evaded by fucking BOS Sakura  Kisame on the other hand put fucking Might Gai on the backfoot while Kisame was 30%. Id argue Kisame just blitzes Sasori


Nah this is a bad argument as Sakura someone trained evasion only evaded on attack from Sasori; should I scale Kisame based on Tenten, Asuma, or Sabo performances against a Kisame Troy


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Nah this is a bad argument as Sakura someone trained evasion only evaded on attack from Sasori; should I scale Kisame based on Tenten, Asuma, or Sabo performances against a Kisame Troy



TrAiNeD iN eVaSiOn 

Idc

A couple of years training doesn't not exceed Kisames lifelong high level combat experience and his outright superior feats.

Fuck you're a clown sometimes.

Or can BoS Sakura handle a Kamui manipulating Rinnegan Obito in CQC?

And you already scale Kisame that low, lower than Asuma and shit despite his insane P2 feats and even in P1 has above Kakashi level portrayal. Why would I try to convince you of anything regarding Kisame?


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> TrAiNeD iN eVaSiOn
> 
> Idc
> 
> ...


I don’t think you get it Sakura is > Tenten and Sabo is my point, and she only evaded Sasori slowest Iron Sand attack. So since your scaling Sasori of how his slowest attack was evaded by a character with better evasion then Sabo/Tentrn; it’s fair to scale Kisame to far slower then Sasoir based on the same logic of his slower attacks/Jutsu being reacted to by Tenten/Sabo; so basically according to your logic you have to agree Kisame is one of the slowest in the verse, correct?
—
Never scaled Kisame lower then Asuma don’t lie.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I don’t think you get it Sakura is > Tenten and Sabo is my point, and she only evaded Sasori slowest Iron Sand attack. So since your scaling Sasori of how his slowest attack was evaded by a character with better evasion then Sabo/Tentrn; it’s fair to scale Kisame to far slower then Sasoir based on the same logic of his slower attacks/Jutsu being reacted to by Tenten/Sabo; so basically according to your logic you have to agree Kisame is one of the slowest in the verse, correct?
> —
> Never scaled Kisame lower then Asuma don’t lie.



Huh?

I barely understood this but I'll work with it.

Sakura was evading and countering ALL of Sasoris jutsu, iron sand included, Sasoris second best Jutsu.

She also dodged dozens of puppets.

Truth of the matter is Sasori ain't fast by any measure.

30% Kisame OTOH blitzed Team Gai with mere Suiton clones and dealt with Gai alone, overwhelming him with superior speed, skill and power.

Y'know, that same Gai who was literally going even with Rinnegan Obito in CQC?


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Also I've seen you and your clown camp argue that Asuma beat Kisame because he got a paper cut on his cheek 

So yes, you guys regularly argue for Asuma being above Kisame, while ignoring the very next scene where Kisame was about to one shot Asuma with a casual Suiton shark


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Huh?
> 
> I barely understood this but I'll work with it.
> 
> ...


Yeah this is called a double standard you are evaluating Kisame by his high end showings while ignoring that at his low end Tenten, Asuma,  and Sabo reacted to his attacks/Jutsu; while doing the inverse for Sasori, evaluating him strictly on his low end showings; of Sakura evading his slower attacks. Double standards


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Also I've seen you and your clown camp argue that Asuma beat Kisame because he got a paper cut on his cheek
> 
> So yes, you guys regularly argue for Asuma being above Kisame, while ignoring the very next scene where Kisame was about to one shot Asuma with a casual Suiton shark


Except you haven’t, don’t lie


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah this is called a double standard you are evaluating Kisame by his high end showings while ignoring that at his low end Tenten, Asuma,  and Sabo reacted to his attacks/Jutsu; while doing the inverse for Sasori, evaluating him strictly on his low end showings; of Sakura evading his slower attacks. Double standards



They only dodged and evaded Kisames SLOWEST attacks, that's the point.

Once he got serious they couldn't do jack shit.

However once Sasori got serious....he couldn't do jack shit anyways...against an inferior opponent.

It's not a double standard.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Except you haven’t, don’t lie



Ohhhhh you're going back on it after realizing how stupid that is.


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> They only dodged and evaded Kisames SLOWEST attacks, that's the point.
> 
> Once he got serious they couldn't do jack shit.
> 
> ...


Your right that’s not a double standard it’s an outright lie; as Chiyo and Sakura could not evade many of Sasori’s faster attacks.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Kisame has superior speed feats against people faster than Sakura (Neji, Lee) in regard to his Jutsu speed.

Like...it's like talking to a brick wall
..


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Ohhhhh you're going back on it after realizing how stupid that is.


Find me where I said Asuma beat Kisame because he scratched him.


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame has superior speed feats against people faster than Sakura (Neji, Lee) in regard to his Jutsu speed.
> 
> Like...it's like talking to a brick wall
> ..


Again double standard.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Your right that’s not a double standard it’s an outright lie; as Chiyo and Sakura could not evade many of Sasori’s faster attacks.



Thought we were talking about Sakura 

Anyways, Chiyo states that Sakura is doing all of the movements on her own around the middle of the fight. "...that girl...she doesn't even need my help"

She then went on to tank small scratches that she'd otherwise avoid because she was under the effects of the antidote, this could not be made more clear


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Find me where I said Asuma beat Kisame because he scratched him.



You've all said it and I'm not digging through the forums looking for it.



Turrin said:


> Again double standard.



"Kisame has superior jutsu speed as his highest end stuff is faster than Sasoris"

"REEEE DOUBLE STANDARD"


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Thought we were talking about Sakura
> 
> Anyways, Chiyo states that Sakura is doing all of the movements on her own around the middle of the fight. "...that girl...she doesn't even need my help"
> 
> She then went on to tank small scratches that she'd otherwise avoid because she was under the effects of the antidote, this could not be made more clear


Yes this was Sakura’s ability to evade the large iron Sand blocks; nothing more. 

Proof she could avoid any other Iron-Sand attack or 100 Puppets on her own


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> You've all said it and I'm not digging through the forums looking for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See your just lying.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> See your just lying.



What am I lying about? Your camp being out to spite Kisame or me saying that Kisames jutsu execution and speed are faster than Sasoris?

Both are confirmable truths


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> What am I lying about? Your camp being out to spite Kisame or me saying that Kisames jutsu execution and speed are faster than Sasoris?
> 
> Both are confirmable truths


You claiming I said Asuma won because he scratch Kisame.

Edit; it’s actually confirmable by canon that Sasori is faster then Kisame as the author says this is the case in the DB, but got to ignore that like 90% of the manga to hold up your Kisame beliefs


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You claiming I said Asuma won because he scratch Kisame.



You agree Kisame would win that fight if the fight continued then yes?


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> You agree Kisame would win that fight if the fight continued then yes?


Yes dude Kisame > Asuma


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes dude Kisame > Asuma



Okay, I'm glad you've changed your mind


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Okay, I'm glad you've changed your mind


Trololo


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You claiming I said Asuma won because he scratch Kisame.
> 
> Edit; it’s actually confirmable by canon that Sasori is faster then Kisame as the author says this is the case in the DB, but got to ignore that like 90% of the manga to hold up your Kisame beliefs



The only things I ignore are retconned statements or feats, everything else is valid (maybe massive outlier like Minato and the 8g Gai interaction)

How I determine this is when we previously thought of something as an undeniable truth is changed by later evidence, such is the case with Kisame

The DB also says Temari can destroy the universe, and that Madara Uchiha is the sole user of PS.

Idc what the DB says, we've been down this road before, if you want to debate with me, you debate the manga and nothing else, if you don't like that then you can take a boat to fuck off island.



Turrin said:


> Trololo



Everyone in your camp held this belief STRONGLY just a week ago


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> The only things I ignore are retconned statements or feats, everything else is valid (maybe massive outlier like Minato and the 8g Gai interaction)
> 
> How I determine this is when we previously thought of something as an undeniable truth is changed by later evidence, such is the case with Kisame
> 
> ...


So realistically you ignore everything you have decided is a retcon, so most of the manga; and the entire DB because you have decided a few hyperbola and inconsistencies means it’s valid to ignore and entire canonical source despite the manga also having the same author and the same hyperbola/inconsistencies. I think my assessment of 90% of canon is pretty accurate

Cool so if it was just a week ago surely you can quote me then right trololo


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> So realistically you ignore everything you have decided is a retcon, so most of the manga; and the entire DB because you have decided a few hyperbola and inconsistencies means it’s valid to ignore and entire canonical source despite the manga also having the same author and the same hyperbola/inconsistencies. I think my assessment of 90% of canon is pretty accurate



Again, only things that are point blank obvious.

Kisame being explicitly stated to be=Itachi, therefore he's =Itachi regardless of his P1 statement because later statements and feats WILL ALWAYS TAKE PRIORITY over outdated ones.

So yes, I will very rarely but justifiably ignore the manga sometimes given its inconsistencies (I'll only ignore parts which are inconsistent) and I ignore all of the DB. Is that clear enough?

If you wanna have a debate about P1 I'll gladly say Jiraiya bootyclaps Kisame s


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> This is of course operating under the assumption that he needs Waterdome here right?
> 
> It wasn't a little bit of ink, Bee was spitting out tons of it
> 
> ...



Oh yh of course operating under that assumption. I don’t believe he would ever use the jutsu against someone who can’t drown would be daft

oh so Bee spat out tons of it. What’s tons of it based on again ? We saw the quantity is spat out , how’s that tons ?

proof or panel evidence or statement that ink is tailor made to spread in water

till then ... 

True I forgot kisame has panel feats of blitzing 

can you show me this in Kishi manga please Where hé blitz someone and rips their heart out 

because the only time he managed to outpace he was in water thus water dome


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> proof or panel evidence or statement that ink is tailor made to spread in water



D....do you not know how ink works?



MHA massive fan said:


> True I forgot kisame has panel feats of blitzing
> 
> can you show me this in Kishi manga please Where hé blitz someone



 Of course



And this is Kisame on 30% mind you


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> D....do you not know how ink works?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sorry this is a blitz ?
Do explain
The panel refers to his strength ....not one mention of his speed . If Gai got blitz he would have made reference to that . Not one character in 700 chapters has been blitz and not made some reference to it 


i obviously don’t know how ink works do explain
Because when an octopus in our world shoots ink it covers the ocean right

Or doesn’t it just dilute like it was never there after a couple of seconds

feel free to use Kishi manga to explain why ink is special in his manga . Also do explain this insane quantity of ink bee spewed because Kishi panels don’t show that


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> sorry this is a blitz ?
> Do explain
> The panel refers to his strength ....not one mention of his speed . If Gai got blitz he would have made reference to that . Not one character in 700 chapters has been blitz and not made some reference to it



If he could dodge it he would have as he did before.

He was blitzed and only managed to block, similar to Kisame vs Bee, except Gai's guard wasn't down in this case 



MHA massive fan said:


> i obviously don’t know how ink works do explain
> Because when an octopus in our world shoots ink it covers the ocean right



Even a small amount of ink covers a massive area in water, it's meant to do this to allow squids and octopi to escape danger, poison does not have the same traits as ink. It's like comparing water and vodka just because they look similar


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Again, only things that are point blank obvious.
> 
> Kisame being explicitly stated to be=Itachi, therefore he's =Itachi regardless of his P1 statement because later statements and feats WILL ALWAYS TAKE PRIORITY over outdated ones.
> 
> ...


Ah yes Kisame challenging Itachi means he’s as strong as him who also equals Asuma and Kurunai since them challenging him means they  are as strong as Itachi; dam maybe Kisame is in Asuma’s level after all based your logic Troy.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> If he could dodge it he would have as he did before.
> 
> He was blitzed and only managed to block, similar to Kisame vs Bee, except Gai's guard wasn't down in this case
> 
> ...



Not bad ink does spread in water ... straight Google 
Ok so rock lee blitz kisame , neji air palm blitz kisame since he didn’t dodge it and got hit 

Is that the logic ?


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Ah yes Kisame challenging Itachi means he’s as strong as him who also equals Asuma and Kurunai since them challenging him means they  are as strong as Itachi; dam maybe Kisame is in Asuma’s level after all based your logic Troy.



Itachis reaction solidifies that. He amps straight to MS, Kisame goes on to State that he hopes they don't end up as each other's final opponents, a blatant statement indicating the battle can go either way

His reaction to Asuma and Kurenai is just 3ts, we've been through this before and you cannot be convinced, just fuck off


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Not bad ink does spread in water ... straight Google
> Ok so rock lee blitz kisame , neji air palm blitz kisame since he didn’t dodge it and got hit
> 
> Is that the logic ?


It was a combo attack that Gai initiated. That's like saying Minato can blitz Madara because 8g Gai did.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Itachis reaction solidifies that. He amps straight to MS, Kisame goes on to State that he hopes they don't end up as each other's final opponents, a blatant statement indicating the battle can go either way
> 
> His reaction to Asuma and Kurenai is just 3ts, we've been through this before and you cannot be convinced, just fuck off



this indicates kisame warrants MS which he does 

not that they are equal though. In the same way kisame won’t rush at Itachi with samehada in a fight because he knows that would get him no where and he is more likely to start with big guns of the bat 

that’s really all that means


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> It was a combo attack that Gai initiated. That's like saying Minato can blitz Madara because 8g Gai did.



neji hit kisame with air palm
No combo there 

feel free to look at the scans 

so what blitz did kisame have again because Gai mentioned his strength 
Not speed


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## Troyse22 (Aug 1, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> this indicates kisame warrants MS which he does
> 
> not that they are equal though. In the same way kisame won’t rush at Itachi with samehada in a fight because he knows that would get him no where and he is more likely to start with big guns of the bat
> 
> that’s really all that means



So if Itachi wins he needs all hes got?

Sounds like u think Itachi wins with extreme difficulty, not that far off from the authors intended portrayal of the two (equals)



MHA massive fan said:


> neji hit kisame with air palm
> No combo there
> 
> feel free to look at the scans
> ...



Or Kisame didn't care cause even on 30% it looked like he was just hit with a gust of wind 

Neji was fodder and Kisame knew it 

Didn't give a darn about Mr Byakugan, just focused on Gai


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 1, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> So if Itachi wins he needs all hes got?
> 
> Sounds like u think Itachi wins with extreme difficulty, not that far off from the authors intended portrayal of the two (equals)
> 
> ...



i never said Itachi low diff’s kisame
He beats him is the only point I’ve made 

so you admit if kisame blitz base gai neji air palm blitz him Kk


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 2, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> -Ive made multiple arguments as to why I believe Kisame would win the fight



I recognize you've made multiple arguments as to why you believe Kisame would win the fight. Too bad they're all garbage.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> You on the other hand, have never tried to rebuttal some of my arguments



Already have. Not my fault your arguments are just plain bad though.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Instead you keep spamming the same replies after replies, from 'hurr Asuma hit Kisame so this will happen' to 'weeeee Sasori can fly although i have no evidence to support it'.



The manga itself is enough evidence, I'd think.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> You have no counter to Daikodan or Water Prison



Addressed both techniques plenty of times. Not my fault you refuse to acknowledge the truth.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> You fail to prove evidence that Sasori can fly, or swim, or that he would be capable of using puppets under water



The manga itself is enough evidence, I'd think.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> You failed to acknowledge that Sasori is a long range fighter and Kisame is a CQC, and that the fight starts 5m apart



Fanfiction. I think you've confused Sasori for Deidara. Deidara is the long range fighter, not Sasori. Sasori is perfectly capable in CQC.

The dude has a 4.5 in Taijutsu, exactly like Kisame - and higher speed (4.5 > 4)



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Instead you went on an tangent about Asuma again



Yes, excuse me for showing that if an inferior opponent was able to scratch Kisame, a superior one whose scratches can oneshot people WILL win.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> If Lady Chiyo and Sakura can dodge Hiruko Sasori's poison cluster bomb close range then Kisame will have no problem



Sakura didn't dodge shit, that was Chiyo who allowed her to dodge Hiruko's cluster bomb. Imagine getting basic facts wrong.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> and to state that he wouldnt be able to would mean you believe Lady Chiyo & Sakura > Kisame, which is just asinine



Yeah, Lady Chiyo and Sakura > Kisame in speed. This isn't controversial.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> For every puppet Sasori has Kisame can create 5 times as many water sharks. Kisame can literally summon a tsunami of a wave and throw it at Sasori's direction alongside hundreds of water sharks and theres nothing Sasori could do about it



Yeah, none of this will work against someone who can use Iron Sand to defend himself or, y'know, fly.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Samehada can cut through Iron Sand because chakra is what keeps the sand together, and samehada eats chakra of course



Not if the Iron Sand attacks bypass Samehada altogether, no.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Hiruko doesnt use a poison cloud like the 3rd kazekage puppet uses, so he cant use that right off the bat



Doesn't have to. The poison clusterbomb is enough.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> And even if you wanted, you stated yourself Sasori and his puppets would keep his distance away from Kisame and spam iron sand, so no poison cloud can be used from Sasori there. And in that case.... Daikodan



Who said anything about poison clouds? Sasori can fill the Water Dome with poisoned sand.



Six Paths Scaling said:


> Sorry friendo, Sasori can not beat Kisame.



''Daikodan'' won't do shit. Sasori flies out of its path.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 2, 2020)

Kisame's water sharks > Sasori's puppets

Samehada or Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage > Iron Sand

Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage > Poison Clouds

Any water jutsu > Poison Clusterbomb

Daikodan >>> Anything Sasori has available
Scenario One
-Hiruko throws poison senbon at Kisame
-A)Kisame summons a water clone in front of him to tank senbon
-B) Kisame spawns a water dome in front of him, water dome absorbs poison senbon
-Samehada breaks through Hiruko and cuts Sasori's chakra threads
-Kisame traps Sasori in Water Prison
-Spawns hundreds of Water Sharks inside
-Fight Over

Scenario Two
-Sasori throws Poison Clouds at Kisame immediately 
-Kisame dives underground with Samehada and dodges poison
-Sasori throws more poison at Kisame
-Kisame just goes right back under
-Kisame floods the whole area with water
-Hiruko immobile under water and sinks
-Kisame summons more water sharks at Hiruko
-Fight Over

Scenario Three
-Kisame lets Sasori start with 3rd Kazekage because Hiruko is fodder
-Sasori launches Iron Sand at Kisame
-Kisame swipes through it with Samehada
-Sasori throws Iron Sand in large shapes at Kisame
-Kisame goes right back underground and avoids attacks
-Kisame uses Exploding Water Colliding Wave
-Sasori decides to "fly" above the water
-Kisame uses Daikodan
-A) Sasori throws Iron Sand at Daikodan, it eats up the chakra from the iron sand and gets larger and KO's Sasori
-Fight Over
-B) Sasori tries to "fly" away from Daikodan, Sasori doesnt know how Daikodan works, sees it pursuing him, gets KO'd
-Fight Over

Dont try and bullshit me with "Daikodan cant follow". Just like puppet body Sasori, Daikodan was able to move directions, therefore both can travel wherever they want. So if Sasori can fly, then Daikodan can too


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 2, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Dont try and bullshit me with "Daikodan cant follow". Just like puppet body Sasori, Daikodan was able to move directions, therefore both can travel wherever they want. So if Sasori can fly, then Daikodan can too



This is fanfiction.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> This is fanfiction.



No its not lmao, when Kisame uses Daikodan you can see it changes movement in air. If you can argue that Sasori could do the same thing in his puppet body form then there is an argument that Daikodan can fly.

So its you either accept that Daikodan can fly and Sasori can too. 
Or that neither can fly based on the same examples that were given above.

Either way the outcome would be the same, Sasori cant outfly Daikodan traveling towards it, and grounded Sasori has no chance of escaping a grounded Daikodan.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> No its not lmao, when Kisame uses Daikodan you can see it changes movement in air. If you can argue that Sasori could do the same thing in his puppet body form then there is an argument that Daikodan can fly.
> 
> So its you either accept that Daikodan can fly and Sasori can too.
> Or that neither can fly based on the same examples that were given above.
> ...



please show me the scans of this 
i really want to see daikodan changing in the air from kishi manga


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> No its not lmao, when Kisame uses Daikodan you can see it changes movement in air. If you can argue that Sasori could do the same thing in his puppet body form then there is an argument that Daikodan can fly.
> 
> So its you either accept that Daikodan can fly and Sasori can too.
> Or that neither can fly based on the same examples that were given above.



I've provided proof to back up my argument. You haven't.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I've provided proof to back up my argument. You haven't.



Yes i have, multiple times actually. I said Daikodan works just like a regular water shark, but on a much larger and stronger scale.

(start the video at 1:00 for evidence, because for some reason it starts near the end of the video)
So if Sasori tries to fly up or swim away, Daikodan would simply follow


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Yes i have, multiple times actually. I said Daikodan works just like a regular water shark, but on a much larger and stronger scale.
> 
> So if Sasori tries to fly up or swim away, Daikodan would simply follow





MHA massive fan said:


> please show me the scans of this
> i really want to see daikodan changing in the air from kishi manga


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


>



tbe first scan is of suikodan not daikodan 
However it won’t surprise me if daikodan can change directions , however kishi never displays this 

sasori flight is irrelevant btw . Kisame wouldnt even get to this point before being scratched 

Neji, lee, asuma , base gai, base killer bee, are all people who have been able to land a hit on kisame 
People less capable than Sasori


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> tbe first scan is of suikodan not daikodan
> Different moves entirely unless you want to claim suikodan can absorb chakra as well



In case you havent noticed, Suikodan and Daikodan are relative in jutsus, almost the same thing really. Look at the panels. One's a water shark missile, and the other is a great water shark missile. The only thing that separates the two is one has a known feat of eating chakra and the other doesnt as far as we know. But they are identical in every other way.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

Neji, lee, asuma , base gai, base killer bee, are all people who have been able to land a hit on kisame
People less capable than Sasori[/QUOTE]

And an Old Lady and a chunin were able to take down Sasori
People less capable than Kisame


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> In case you havent noticed, Suikodan and Daikodan are relative in jutsus, almost the same thing really. Look at the panels. One's a water shark missile, and the other is a great water shark missile. The only thing that separates the two is one has a known feat of eating chakra and the other doesnt as far as we know. But they are identical in every other way.



actually neither have a feat of eating chakra only a description of being able to do so 

like I said daikodan hardly matters , has no feats to suggest it’s explosion can kill sasori 
Also has no hype to back it up


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Neji, lee, asuma , base gai, base killer bee, are all people who have been able to land a hit on kisame
> People less capable than Sasori
> 
> And an Old Lady and a chunin were able to take down Sasori
> People less capable than Kisame



after being poisoned 3 times
Something kisame can’t afford
Seeing as he has no antidote


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> actually neither have a feat of eating chakra only a description of being able to do so
> 
> like I said daikodan hardly matters , has no feats to suggest it’s explosion can kill sasori
> Also has no hype to back it up



So you're saying Kisame was just lying about Daikodan eating up chakra? The user of the jutsu stated how it works, which is better than any feat we could have. And it doesnt need to "explode" Sasori, Sasori has a chakra network in his body that helps him move on his own, and in the container, *"The left part of Sasori's chest held the lone human part of him and thus, the only necessary part of his body capable of controlling chakra"*. This basically confirms that if Sasori gets hit by Daikodan, he would in fact die.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> after being poisoned 3 times
> Something kisame can’t afford
> Seeing as he has no antidote



Because they had nothing to counter Sasori's poison. Kisame on the other hand, has basically the best jutsu capable of dodging any poison attacks Sasori throws at him, *Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage*


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Because they had nothing to counter Sasori's poison. Kisame on the other hand, has basically the best jutsu capable of dodging any poison attacks Sasori throws at him, *Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage*




Oh you mean the jutsu base lee, neji and fucking 1010 could dodge 

ok so kisame does that then what ? Because that sure as hell won’t hit sasori if he really wanted to get hit


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> So you're saying Kisame was just lying about Daikodan eating up chakra? The user of the jutsu stated how it works, which is better than any feat we could have. And it doesnt need to "explode" Sasori, Sasori has a chakra network in his body that helps him move on his own, and in the container, *"The left part of Sasori's chest held the lone human part of him and thus, the only necessary part of his body capable of controlling chakra"*. This basically confirms that if Sasori gets hit by Daikodan, he would in fact die.


Everyone has chakra in their body so what you are now baselessly claiming is anyone who gets hit by daikodan dies ?

so juubito who has chakra in his body gets hit and dies ? 
Please confirm


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## Quipchaque (Aug 3, 2020)

Kisame should be stronger. Kishimoto hyped him through the roof in part 2 while Sasori turned into a joke character that got manhandled by a chuunin and a woman that can't handle sharingan on her own. His role was also rather insignificant so him being stronger than Kisame would be just out of place.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Everyone has chakra in their body so what you are now baselessly claiming is anyone who gets hit by daikodan dies ?
> 
> so juubito who has chakra in his body gets hit and dies ?
> Please confirm



Sasori does not work the same way other characters do. His puppet body heavily relies on his chakra network and the chakra, brain, and heart thats sealed in the container. Getting hit by this would result in Sasori not being able to move anymore, but also not being able to cast any puppets. And im not sure if the container is entirely chakra or not. But i think not that matters.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Oh you mean the jutsu base lee, neji and fucking 1010 could dodge
> 
> ok so kisame does that then what ? Because that sure as hell won’t hit sasori if he really wanted to get hit



Did i ever say he was going to use it to hit Sasori? He doesnt need to. His water sharks and samehada are his main forms of attack. Using that jutsu Kisame basically counters any iron sand or poison attack that Sasori throws at him, because he can simply hide underground


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Sasori does not work the same way other characters do. His puppet body heavily relies on his chakra network and the chakra, brain, and heart thats sealed in the container. Getting hit by this would result in Sasori not being able to move anymore, but also not being able to cast any puppets. And im not sure if the container is entirely chakra or not. But i think not that matters.



oh so others don’t rely on their chakra network 
Guess Hyuga are essentially useless then considering that’s their trick


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> oh so others don’t rely on their chakra network
> Guess Hyuga are essentially useless then considering that’s their trick



Thats.... not was i was talking about? Sasori is not a human, the only thing inside of him is chakra and plastic. If Daikodan tags anyone else you could maybe argue that they'd survive it, while Sasori can not. Because once Daikodan hits Sasori he would not be able to use his puppet body anymore, because he relies on chakra to move, like hes basically controlling himself.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Thats.... not was i was talking about? Sasori is not a human, the only thing inside of him is chakra and plastic. If Daikodan tags anyone else you could maybe argue that they'd survive it, while Sasori can not. Because once Daikodan hits Sasori he would not be able to use his puppet body anymore, because he relies on chakra to move, like hes basically controlling himself.



why could you argue they could survive it 
Both sasori and anyone else depend on chakra to fight . So anyone can survive it so can he , as without chakra any opponent won’t be able to move anymore


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Yes i have, multiple times actually. I said Daikodan works just like a regular water shark, but on a much larger and stronger scale.
> 
> (start the video at 1:00 for evidence, because for some reason it starts near the end of the video)
> So if Sasori tries to fly up or swim away, Daikodan would simply follow



Not seeing it. Sorry, bro.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not seeing it. Sorry, bro.


It was when he used Daikodan, and Might Guy used Hirudora. If you couldnt see it thats okay because i posted 2 pics of manga panels in the upper replies if you wanna look for it


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> why could you argue they could survive it
> Both sasori and anyone else depend on chakra to fight . So anyone can survive it so can he , as without chakra any opponent won’t be able to move anymore



If that's your stand then sure, you could argue that if one were to be hit by Daikodan, (with an exception of a few characters), it would cause serious damage. But thats like saying if someone were to get hit by FRS or kirin, it would cause serious damage, which ya, is kind of obvious


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> It was when he used Daikodan, and Might Guy used Hirudora. If you couldnt see it thats okay because i posted 2 pics of manga panels in the upper replies if you wanna look for it



It's not there in the manga either.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 3, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's not there in the manga either.






To save myself from time, if you try to follow up with something like, "those arent the same justus". I have a response to that.

"In case you havent noticed, Suikodan and Daikodan are relative in jutsus, almost the same thing really. Look at the panels. One's a water shark missile, and the other is a great water shark missile. The only thing that separates the two is one has a known feat of eating chakra and the other doesnt as far as we know. But they are identical in every other way."


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> *One's a water shark missile, and the other is a great water shark missile*



I'll actually concede - this is like the first good point you've made in this entire thread. I stand corrected.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 4, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> If that's your stand then sure, you could argue that if one were to be hit by Daikodan, (with an exception of a few characters), it would cause serious damage. But thats like saying if someone were to get hit by FRS or kirin, it would cause serious damage, which ya, is kind of obvious



actually nope 
FRS has feats and hype well above daikodan and how the technique functions puts his damage potential well above what daikodan can do 

kirin is no different 

please don’t compare water to a cellular destruction technique

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 4, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> actually nope
> FRS has feats and hype well above daikodan and how the technique functions puts his damage potential well above what daikodan can do
> 
> kirin is no different
> ...



Okay, well, either way you look at it if Sasori gets hit by Daikodan its over. Suggesting he can somehow come out okay from it means you dont wanna accept that Kisame can beat Sasori in a fight


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 4, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Okay, well, either way you look at it if Sasori gets hit by Daikodan its over. Suggesting he can somehow come out okay from it means you dont wanna accept that Kisame can beat Sasori in a fight



i don’t think even Kishi accepts that


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 4, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> i don’t think even Kishi accepts that


Well considering Kishi himself portrayed Kisame superior to Sasori, id say he accepts it yeah.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> actually nope
> FRS has feats and hype well above daikodan and how the technique functions puts his damage potential well above what daikodan can do
> 
> kirin is no different
> ...



To be fair, Giant Shark Bomb is pretty baller in itself. It's a Tailed Beast level Water Style technique which can suck out chakra.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 4, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Well considering Kishi himself portrayed Kisame superior to Sasori, id say he accepts it yeah.



sure thing


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> To be fair, Giant Shark Bomb is pretty baller in itself. It's a Tailed Beast level Water Style technique which can suck out chakra.



tailed beast based on what buddy ?
Common people can’t just throw out random words for effect 
The author never links it to anything tail beast nor does he give it any hype to its power in DB
Bar to say it can absorb loads of chakra


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 4, 2020)

I generaly find Kisame's reputation and track record better than Sasori . And more resourceful but imo Sasori's kit counter Kisame pretty well.

Most of Sasori's kit arent absorbable.  They're solid . Also His poison counters Kisame's waterbase traps, area control measurements and water dome effectively. 

If Kisame able to get in cqc ofc he is gonna murk Sasori but however he is gonna choose throwing water sharks and bullets at him. Then Sasori could be the advantaged side over here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> tailed beast based on what buddy ?



Size and scale, plus the fact Kisame is the Tailless Tailed Beast who's functioning in a water battlefield.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Size and scale, plus the fact Kisame is the Tailless Tailed Beast who's functioning in a water battlefield.




Gaara sand tsunami in part 1 were that size and scale 
Should I now claim basic part 1 gaara without shukaku influence got a tailed beast  tsunami?

if not directly stated by the author in his work then it’s just ass guessing which isn’t good 

in the same way hirudora was the same scale as that yet does way less damage than a BD


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 4, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I generaly find Kisame's reputation and track record better than Sasori . And more resourceful but imo Sasori's kit counter Kisame pretty well.
> 
> Most of Sasori's kit arent absorbable.  They're solid . Also His poison counters Kisame's waterbase traps, area control measurements and water dome effectively.
> 
> If Kisame able to get in cqc ofc he is gonna murk Sasori but however he is gonna choose throwing water sharks and bullets at him. Then Sasori could be the advantaged side over here.



The fight starts off 5m away, so basically CQC lol


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Gaara sand tsunami in part 1 were that size and scale
> Should I now claim basic part 1 gaara without shukaku influence got a tailed beast  tsunami?



I mean, I have hype and feats backing me up. You don't. Kisame is explicitly compared to a Tailed Beast.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 4, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> The fight starts off 5m away, so basically CQC lol


Well then Kisame has a huge advantage.. Cuz he is clearly the faster and stronger side.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Well then Kisame has a huge advantage.. Cuz he is clearly the* faster *and stronger side.



Um, no.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, I have hype and feats backing me up. You don't. Kisame is explicitly compared to a Tailed Beast.



oh I want to see these daikodan feats
Scans please

I am not doubting kisame chakra levels
My point is what makes daikdoan a bijuu level jutsu ?

naruto has bijuu level chakra dont make rasengan a bijuu level jutsu or FRS for that matter or COFRS all jutsu less powerful than a BD


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> oh I want to see these daikodan feats
> Scans please



I mean, it's the strongest attack coming from a guy who has the chakra level of a Tailed Beast. Feat wise, it's as big as a Tailed Beast (the teeth alone are taller than an adult person, as was the case with Naruto vs Son Goku).

What more do you want?


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, it's the strongest attack coming from a guy who has the chakra level of a Tailed Beast. Feat wise, it's as big as a Tailed Beast (the teeth alone are taller than an adult person, as was the case with Naruto vs Son Goku).
> 
> What more do you want?



you said you had feats
You haven’t provided this though

it’s just your supposition

when did kisame say it’s his strongest jutsu ?

so jutsu scale is all it takes to be bijuu level

I guess kimimaro is as well 200m+ bones to cover a forest


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> you said you had feats
> You haven’t provided this though
> 
> it’s just your supposition
> ...



It's portrayed as his nuke and answer to 7G Guy's Daytime Tiger. It failed, but it's portrayed as his best attack.



MHA massive fan said:


> so jutsu scale is all it takes to be bijuu level



Um, I pretty explicitly said he has Tailed Beast level chakra...


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's portrayed as his nuke and answer to 7G Guy's Daytime Tiger. It failed, but it's portrayed as his best attack.
> 
> 
> 
> Um, I pretty explicitly said he has Tailed Beast level chakra...



As does A4 doesn’t make raiga bomb a tailed beast level jutsu now does it 

so you are saying kisame never made the claim that dAikodan is his strongest jutsu 

if he did there would be a scan of him saying that 

assuming it is , is nice and all. 
But to try compare the damage output of dAikodan to BD is as foolish as comparing raiga bomb to casual Bijuu throwing a punch


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 4, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> As does A4 doesn’t make raiga bomb a tailed beast level jutsu now does it
> 
> so you are saying kisame never made the claim that dAikodan is his strongest jutsu
> 
> ...



Considering it took a 7th gate Gai to counter Daikodan, im pretty sure thats an impressive feat within itself.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 4, 2020)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> Considering it took a 7th gate Gai to counter Daikodan, im pretty sure thats an impressive feat within itself.



actually dAikodan was used to counter Hirudora not the other way around 
Gai was going to use Hirudora regardless

however dAikodan did nothing but get beat 
Because it was not a chakra based attack 

this leads to the notion that on it’s own , I.e without absorbing additional chakra it isn’t all that 

the purpose of the jutsu is to take power from the enemy and use it against them 

it has no properties that would make it dangerous in itself . No molecular destruction like jinton or FRS, no explosion like BD , no getting drilled then exploded with chakra like rasengan variants 

nor does it even have cutting properties 

my point is it’s utterly foolish to believe dAikodan can do as much damage as a bijuu dama by itself 

no hype or feats support this, having bijuu level chakra does not yield bijuu level results as said term is extremely vague 

there is kurama and shukaku. Shukaku scale is insignificant to kurama


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## Itachi x Tenten (Aug 4, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> actually dAikodan was used to counter Hirudora not the other way around
> Gai was going to use Hirudora regardless
> 
> however dAikodan did nothing but get beat
> ...


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Um, no.


Lol . 

72 y/o retired Chiyo and Chunnin BoS Sakura sends their regards then


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Lol .
> 
> 72 y/o retired Chiyo and Chunnin BoS Sakura with prep time and Sasori forfeiting sends their regards then



Fixed. 

Better them than Asuma.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Fixed.
> 
> Better them than Asuma.


Fixed worse than Kakashi, Killer Bee and Maito Gai with several gates or even Base Gai  

(plus i don't think either of'em were faster than Asuma)


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Fixed worse than Kakashi, Killer Bee and Maito Gai with several gates or even Base Gai



Kisame never kept up with Kakashi, got cut by Base Bee, and got tagged by Base Guy. Kisame never kept up with Gated Guy.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> (plus i don't think either of'em were faster than Asuma)



Chiyo is in the same speed tier as Asuma, dawg. Her puppets were able to keep up with Sasori's.

Yet she and Sakura (whom she used as a puppet together) got tagged multiple times, so...

Sasori > Chiyo and Sakura > Asuma > Kisame (CQC only).


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kisame never kept up with Kakashi, got cut by Base Bee, and got tagged by Base Guy


Base Gai is far beyond Chiyo and Sakura's leage. 

Plus %30 Fake Kisame almost able to land a hit on 6G Gai, And he reacted to Hirudora too (ofc it was slowed than but still an impressive one) . And the dude stand still against Bee 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Her puppets were able to keep up with Sasori's.


Which is the thing make Sasori a slow one.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Chiyo is in the same speed tier as Asuma


Close but not same probably.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> got tagged multiple times


And cant be tagged other dozens of times  Sasori even amazed by Sakura's evasive skills by himself lol 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Sasori > Chiyo and Sakura > Asuma > Kisame (CQC only).


OMG ? Ok


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Base Gai is far beyond Chiyo and Sakura's leage



Fanfiction. Chiyo could beat Base Guy. Adding Sakura makes it a stomp.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Plus %30 Fake Kisame almost able to land a hit on 6G Gai, And he reacted to Hirudora too (ofc it was slowed than but still an impressive one)



6G Guy blitzed him mid-sentence and kicked his ass. Not really that impressive.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> And the dude stand still against Bee



Standing still against a Bee who didn't even have his seven swords and getting cut isn't too impressive.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Which is the thing make Sasori a slow one



How exactly does it make Sasori slow? His attacks were so fast they looked like a blur, as were Chiyo's. Sasori has a higher speed tier than Kisame (4.5 > 4), as does Chiyo. Kisame has never,_ ever_ been portrayed as fast outside of swimming.

Sasori also kept up with and even impressed Chiyo with his speed. Kisame got tagged by Asuma and pushed to use Ninjutsu.

Close but not same probably.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> And cant be tagged other dozens of times  Sasori even amazed by Sakura's evasive skills by himself lol



Bad argument, considering that Sakura was literally sweating bullets against Hiruko alone and the Third Kazekage puppet appeared as a literal blur to her and amazed her with its speed. Sakura was carried against Hiruko by Chiyo, carried multiple times against the Kazekage by Chiyo, and carried a few more times against Sasori's puppet body and army again...by Chiyo.

Also, Sakura learned to evade Sasori's attacks by reading his attack patterns, which Chiyo helped her do at first.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> OMG ? Ok



Concession accepted.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 5, 2020)

We know all it takes is asuma level of speed to push kisame to use ninjitsu and get scratched 
Certainly sasori can move his sandaime puppet faster than that 

enough said the shark man gets scratched quickly unless he wises up and uses his AOE water jutsu off the bat 

anything else he looses to quickly to make this fun


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Chiyo could beat Base Guy. Adding Sakura makes it a stomp.


I'm talking about "speed" dude. That was the main theme of our debate remember ? lol



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not really that impressive.


Far far more than what %100 Sasori did against Sakura & Chiyo in a closed space 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Standing still against a Bee who didn't even have his seven swords and getting cut isn't too impressive.


When Bee's swords become speed boosters ?  



Aegon Targaryen said:


> His attacks were so fast they looked like a blur,


Most of the genin attacks and movements are blur too. Naruto is a fast verse in general. Having a blur lines ain't explain everything by itself. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Sasori has a higher speed tier than Kisame (4.5 > 4)


Dude if you really taking DB scores into this? U can use DB as a support for your arguments (and even then it has to be consistent with manga feats) not the main pillar of your argument. Due to the same DB score Sakura was 3 in speed yet Sasori was amazed by her evasive skills. Soo?

Plus if you believe in DB so much? Then why u claimed that Chiyo is fast as Asuma ? Cuz while Asuma 4.5, Chiyo was 4.0 ?  You're officially tripping yourself.

Chiyo and BoS Sakura are ain't combatants that shines with their speed at all. On the other hand, Kisame has to deal with more speedsters such as Bee, Gai, V1-V2-V3 Jincs. Dont get me wrong Kisame ain't a speedster at all. But he is far faster than Sasori.

Even armless Deidara able to school out Team 7 Team Gai in the same time and almost kill'em all. 

So what Sasori did against Chiyo and Sakura kinda very unimpressive. 

Even Hidan who has the slowest attacks in Akatsuki due to himself. Able to keep up with Kakashi while his long-range scythe was broken. 




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kisame has never,_ ever_ been portrayed as fast outside of swimming.


Yes, he does. Read his fight against Bee. Plus neither Sasori never portrayed as a fast one too. Actually he even portrayed as a slow one cuz Sakura able to read his all hand gestures and movements after some point of the fight. And Chiyo admitted that she ain't even need her to assist to evade Sasori. And again due to DB her speed was 3 ?   IF you still wanna go with DB only. 3 taijutsu 3 speed 2.5 stamina Sakura were able to "amaze" Sasori via her evasive skills and resilience 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kisame got tagged by Asuma and pushed to use Ninjutsu.


Asuma is a dude who hailed as "best melee weapon fighter of the Konoha" . That puts him above Gai with his nunchucks and Kakashi with his kunai. So getting a scratch by Asuma ain't much of a big downside for Kisame. Plus Kisame get that scratch cuz he didn't know Asuma's reach via chakra knives. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Concession accepted.


Nope, I accepted ur bias my friend. That was that


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