# Saber vs Zoro



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

post-skip Zoro obviously

*Saber under Rin* (  ) .. she has the prana she had with Rin as Master


Scenario 1: CQC swordplay only, they start in melee, nothing except melee swordfighting allowed

Scenario 2: unrestricted, start @ standart 20m distance .. she has Avalon


mostly interested in scenario 1, because of re-reading this thread about Mach 26 Saber


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## Seyta (Jun 18, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> post-skip Zoro obviously
> 
> *Saber under Rin* (  )
> 
> ...



For Scenario 1, does sword-fighting only ban Excalibur's Anti-Fortress properties?

For Scenario 2: Avalon


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

> does sword-fighting only ban Excalibur's Anti-Fortress properties?




how would those manifest/aid her in a pure swordfight ? 


but if they're *passive* properties of the sword, then probably no - not banned


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## Seyta (Jun 18, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> how would those manifest/aid her in a pure swordfight ?
> 
> 
> but if they're *passive* properties of the sword, then probably no - not banned



By anti-fortress properties, I mean when she screams "EXCALIBUUUURRRRR" and an energy-blast emerges

But judging by your wording of "pure swordfight", I'd assume that it's banned.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

that is banned of course, yeah

no flashy blasts, just slicing the other one with a sword

no ranged air slashes/tatsumakis for Zoro too (in Scenario 1)


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## Amae (Jun 18, 2012)

Saber has been under Rin. 

Scenario One: Zoro's far stronger than Saber physically. 
Scenario Two: Comparable speed leads me to believe Zoro gets a Excaliblast.


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jun 18, 2012)

Does she have to stand still while using Excalibur or anything?


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## Estrecca (Jun 18, 2012)

Some sort of zombie said:


> Does she have to stand still while using Excalibur or anything?



She needs to use both hands for the swing, at least. This is a plot point in Fate Zero.


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## Amae (Jun 18, 2012)

Saber also has Avalon - hides behind it, charges Excalibur, gg Zoro.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

Amae said:


> Saber has been under Rin.


good 




> Scenario One: Zoro's far stronger than Saber physically.


true  .. is that Mach 26 thing from the linked thread legit ?


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## Imagine (Jun 18, 2012)

Those mach 26 swings are gonna be a bitch to deal with. Zoro still is stronger would his multi city block durability still stand well against cutting attacks?

Scenario 2: Giving to Saber avalon and excaliblast are just too much. (broken bitch)


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm not really sure if she can fight @ Mach 26 even with Rin .. that feat described one dodge (and not at melee range) with difficulty

but she shouldn't be slower then Zoro

but he's stronger

she has an "invisible" sword, doubt that'll help much though



I figured Scenario 1 would go to Zoro


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## Amae (Jun 18, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> good


Shit's canon. 



> true  .. is that Mach 26 thing from the linked thread legit ?


Given the legitimacy of the feat (dodging Hrunting as she's propelling herself at the same speed when they meet at the same point - it was melee range, btw) and the explanation as to why her reactions would be that fast, yeah. Admittedly, willy's more knowledgeable than me on things Fate-related.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

so strength (and likely durability) vs speed 


maybe willy will shed some light


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## Imagine (Jun 18, 2012)

In scenario 1 Zoro and Saber have a epic duel were they both compliment each other on there swordsmanship. Then after that they decide not to have a duel to the death and thus Zoro asks Saber to join the SH's. She says yes.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

Who'd be her Master ?


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## Imagine (Jun 18, 2012)

Grandmaster Zoro.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

Does he know how to replenish mana ?


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## Imagine (Jun 18, 2012)

Easy by fucking her its canon.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

ImagineBreakr said:


> Easy by fucking her its canon.


that was the question

if it's not training, drinking/eating or fighting - will Zoro do it ?


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## Imagine (Jun 18, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> that was the question
> 
> if it's not training, drinking/eating or fighting - will Zoro do it ?



He'll have to its for a nakama. If not then Sanji will gladly take his place once his nosebleed ends.


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jun 18, 2012)

Sanji is probably a virgin.


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## Spirit King (Jun 18, 2012)

Amae said:


> Saber also has Avalon - hides behind it, charges Excalibur, gg Zoro.



No she doesn't this being Rin's Saber meaning she lacks it.


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## DestinyDestroyer (Jun 18, 2012)

Zoro takes the first scenario

In the 2nd Scenario, he eats an EKSUKARIBAAAHHH to the face


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## Seyta (Jun 18, 2012)

ImagineBreakr said:


> In scenario 1 Zoro and Saber have a epic duel were they both compliment each other on there swordsmanship. Then after that they decide not to have a duel to the death and thus Zoro asks Saber to join the SH's. She says yes.



Oh please, she turned down ISKANDER's offer to join him.

There's no way Zoro could ever hope to convince her to subject herself to their buffoon of a captain that is Luffy.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2012)

Amae said:


> Shit's canon.
> 
> Given the legitimacy of the feat (dodging Hrunting as she's propelling herself at the same speed when they meet at the same point - it was melee range, btw) and the explanation as to why her reactions would be that fast, yeah. Admittedly, willy's more knowledgeable than me on things Fate-related.



She needed a command mantra from Shirou/Avenger, prana burst and her barrier of the wind king. She also has precognition which let's her dodge attacks/block in time before.

Saber does not move at mach 10 or even close, nor does she fight at such speed in either Fate or Fate/Zero. Fate/Zero Saber is stronger than regular Fate Saber which is the one in F/HA. 



> Saber also has Avalon - hides behind it, charges Excalibur, gg Zoro



This is'nt how Avalon works(or refresh my memory if I'm wrong), Avalon is only useable when it's used and she can't do anything while behind it. This combo worked on Gil in Fate route because he stood still charging up his EA while forgetting to fire off his swords to keep her back. 



> Oh please, she turned down ISKANDER's offer to join him.
> 
> There's no way Zoro could ever hope to convince her to subject herself to their buffoon of a captain that is Luffy



And this, Iskander has more charisma in his finger than Luffy in his whole rubber body.

Anyway CQC: Zoro
All out: Saber her Excalibeam, regen, precog and Avalon give her good odds, she needs to avoid CQC though.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2012)

so what would be her consistent combat speed @ full power (as Arturia/with Rin as Master - same thing ?)


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2012)

Supersonic to hypersonic should be perfectly reasonable because even Berserker Herakles can move at sound speed. We can't really quantify how much her speed increases between versions. She's monstrous by servant standards in her best levels though.

"Command spells allow for the strengthening of servants"
"the order of the command spell is fly"

This only works if a command spell is given to strengthen the servant or user. If the OP allows it, it can be done in threads but otherwise she cannot move anywhere near this level.

The whole "knight king who ruled battlefields will be reborn" can either be taken as that amped saber=original King arthur Saber or reborn can just be used to mean Saber has gotten stronger. Comes down to how you interpret this. The rest is upto her precog to let her dodge or parry the Hrunting so you can't get a slash speed/reaction speed when there is some degree of having your guard up in advance by being able to know.


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## Spirit King (Jun 19, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> She needed a command mantra from Shirou/Avenger, prana burst and her barrier of the wind king. She also has precognition which let's her dodge attacks/block in time before.
> 
> Saber does not move at mach 10 or even close, nor does she fight at such speed in either Fate or Fate/Zero. Fate/Zero Saber is stronger than regular Fate Saber which is the one in F/HA.
> 
> ...



TBF she did ally herself with Shirou and this was UBW Shirou so without the love crap and stayed with him despite the fact her master (Rin) was in danger. Really she only allies herself with people similar enough to her with the only time she gave up on her was both times Shirou showing her another way. Plus Iskander didn't even acknowledge her as a king for a while so she wouldn't have joined him regardless of his charisma.   

Avalon doesn't  simply separate Saber away it can also reflect attacks back to it's source as show with shirou against gilgamesh, in fate. But avalon's not in this match as Rin's Saber does not have it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2012)

> But avalon's not in this match as Rin's Saber does not have it.


it is actually, Rin's Saber was meant for her prana level, so she isn't gimped that way

she has Avalon too, since it's her NP





> Avalon doesn't simply separate Saber away it can also *reflect* attacks back to it's source as show with shirou against gilgamesh, in fate


that happen in the VN too ?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2012)

Avalon does not reflect attacks back, that was anime only and probably because the anime writers minsinterprated the feat

-Gil says he'll put back EA because of how unimpressed he was by them
-Shirou pulls out Avalon
-Gil charges
-Some white light described as being weaker than Excalibur if I recall
-Gil is shown hurt and the weapon in his hand gone

It could just be Gilgamesh tried to attack with something, that something smashed against Avalon causing him to get hurt when it broke. Don't remember this ever happening in Avalon's other use so it can't be reflecting attacks back.



> Really she only allies herself with people similar enough to her



This is true if she's given a choice. But Luffy is about adventure who wants to save his Nakama when they get in trouble in a nutshell, Shirou/Saber are not about adventure. Only way Saber joins Luffy is if his current goals overlap with hers, any other time she'll not accept. If Iskander can't convince her with his charisma, she's not joining because Zoro asks her but this would now go off topic.



> it is actually, Rin's Saber was meant for her prana level, so she isn't gimped that way
> 
> she has Avalon too, since it's her NP



Avalon is her NP but she does not have it as Rin Saber, it's always either inside Shirou or Kiritsugu is carrying it. You could just say Avalon is allowed in the OP and end this.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2012)

> Avalon is her NP but she does not have it as Rin Saber, it's always either inside Shirou or Kiritsugu is carrying it.


yeah I know, but want her @ full power here



> You could just say Avalon is allowed in the OP and end this.


that's what I meant, I'll edit it in


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## Spirit King (Jun 19, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Avalon does not reflect attacks back, that was anime only and probably because the anime writers minsinterprated the feat
> 
> -Gil says he'll put back EA because of how unimpressed he was by them
> -Shirou pulls out Avalon
> ...



Gil used a ranged attack, excaliblast (original caliburns version), there's little else you could explain it by. He did not physically attack avalon as was made obvious.

It pretty much goes gil charges up caliburn both Shirou and saber becomes extremely worried, Shirou traces avalon attack hits and then Gilgamesh is shown hurt. Using your going to say gilg fired a weapon that was not shown or made ap physical attack when it was not remotely implied to have done some of his attack came back at him. It not work for all attacks but for Excaliblast energy type attacks over short range it does.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> Gil used a ranged attack, excaliblast (original caliburns version), there's little else you could explain it by. He did not physically attack avalon as was made obvious.
> 
> It pretty much goes gil charges up caliburn both Shirou and saber becomes extremely worried, Shirou traces avalon attack hits and then Gilgamesh is shown hurt. Using your going to say gilg fired a weapon that was not shown or made ap physical attack when it was not remotely implied to have done some of his attack came back at him. It not work for all attacks but for Excaliblast energy type attacks over short range it does.




He covered it up in energy, Saber can cover excalibur with energy to enhance the slash(has done it more than once). Gil charges with a charged up blade and it smashes, there is no other explaination because Avalon does not do reflect anything back to it's opponent(note it repels attacks but does not send them back onto the enemy like people are implying) in it's later use against Gil a second time. 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFftAG2xXuA&feature=relmfu[/YOUTUBE]

1 min 38 secs "With Ea straight ahead of her, her noble phantasm is activated"

1 min 52 seconds "the sheath repels all light from Ea"
"No, it goes beyond the level of mere defending"
"It is complete isolation"
"The barrier from a fairyland that keeps out all filth outside the land"
"A complete world separation from this one that can never be reached"
"She is blocked off from all matter in this world"

2 min 22 seconds "The raised Ea will not stop turning and he cannot manage to jump back"

He's still holding EA and no mention of damage or any damage shown visible like the time after Avalon in his first Saber fight in the route, if it really could do what you claimed in it's first use, Gil would have been blasted with his own EA in this instance and not be just fine holding it. You can't claim that EA will do no damage reflected back while something weaker than Excalibur could, he is fine(his face has that marking from Saber stomping his face). Repelling an attack does not necessarily mean reflecting it back onto the user.

2 min 39 secs, what I mentioned about making the energy swirl around the blade for better slash.

3 min 9 secs should sum up what Gil tried back when Avalon came up the first time.



> It not work for all attacks but for Excaliblast energy type attacks over short range it does



If you mean like what I meant(making the energy swirl around the blade and slashing) then yes I agree because the blade will shatter back onto the user. If you're implying close range beamspam then Ea vs Avalon in the final fight proves you otherwise. Gil is not damaged from his EA, he's also still holding it and can jump just fine(just not in time due to the short distance between him and Saber).

Avalon vs Gil first time= them showing us he's hurt
Avalon vs Gil when he's using beamspam= no mention or shown damage


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## steveht93 (Jun 19, 2012)

Seyta said:


> Oh please, she turned down ISKANDER's offer to join him.



True,zoro can only dream to become half the man iskander is.even if he tried ,he will fails horribly.

If saber didn't join king of conquerors and turned down king of heros marriage proposal then those straw hats bitches can only dream.

BTW, saber should be equal in power to zoro since she was trading blows with FSN berserker. And how fast is zoro swings?


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## Amae (Jun 19, 2012)

steveht93 said:


> BTW, saber should be equal in power to zoro since she was trading blows with FSN berserker. And how fast is zoro swings?


A fully powered Saber would own FSN Berserker and she would still be weaker than Zoro, it isn't anything impressive.


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## Spirit King (Jun 19, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> He covered it up in energy, Saber can cover excalibur with energy to enhance the slash(has done it more than once). Gil charges with a charged up blade and it smashes, there is no other explaination because Avalon does not do reflect anything back to it's opponent(note it repels attacks but does not send them back onto the enemy like people are implying) in it's later use against Gil a second time.
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFftAG2xXuA&feature=relmfu[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> 1 min 38 secs "With Ea straight ahead of her, her noble phantasm is activated"
> ...



Your example falls apart when you realise Ea isn't an energy weapon. It destroys dimensions rather than a conventional blast it's completely different to excaliblast. So you can't use that as an example. Explain the first example before using another that's not comparable.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 19, 2012)

> Your example falls apart when you realise Ea isn't an energy weapon



You claimed Avalon could do something never mentioned in the game or any source material based on one example which has enough room for something other than firing a beam directly i.e slashing with the energy around the blade, then when I give you another example where it does'nt reflect back you argue that the properties of the NP are different?(depending on how one interprets EA it either has two properties beam and distortion or the beam is not an actual beam)So basically, only one point for both us and both have 50/50. We are both arguing over an unknown NP with unknown properties, assuming it's related to Caliburn/Excalibur which would give either beamspam or beam slash equal odds.

So even taking the EA scene out of the equation, it becomes an impasse, unless you have more proof that it was a beamspam over a beam slash, neither of us have anything over the other now. Your original argument was it could reflect attacks close enough, there is mention of the EA attack being repelled but nothing of it being sent back onto Gil. Avalon magically(yes I know) reflecting only one kind of attack back onto the user especially at close range is however hilarious because nothing like this is ever mentioned anywhere, I atleast gave canon evidence of Saber using Excalibur to do a beam slash. 

But I suspect this thread has been settled and now we're just arguing over the properties of Avalon. I'm done here.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 19, 2012)

I wouldn't mind settling once and for all what the Servants consistent combat speed is (@ full power/prana, but no command spells)

because I know willy mentioned hypersonic+ several times


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## Amae (Jun 19, 2012)

A fully powered Saber's mach 13+. TF's issues with that are bullshit.



> She needed a command mantra from Shirou/Avenger, prana burst and her barrier of the wind king. She also has precognition which let's her dodge attacks/block in time before.



Saber was restored to her original strength with the command spell. She only used a combination of a prana burst and Invisible Air to leap towards Archer, but doesn't change the fact she can move that fast and can achieve that level of speed. The precognition that's always on ... ? C'mon.


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## Imagine (Jun 19, 2012)

Seyta said:


> Oh please, she turned down ISKANDER's offer to join him.
> 
> There's no way Zoro could ever hope to convince her to subject herself to their buffoon of a captain that is Luffy.



Nope she doing it because she respects him.  Shes already on the thousand sunny right now.


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## ggultra2764 (Jun 20, 2012)

Scenario 1: Zoro wins due to higher strength coming from his blows than Arturia could handle. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Zoro has better speed feats than Saber since she topped out at Mach 14 at best with a command spell.

Scenario 2: Avalon's abilities and regen should protect her against Zoro's attacks to allow her to adapt enough to Zoro's attacks to deliver an Excaliblast.


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## Zihawk (Jun 20, 2012)

Both scenarios end with consensual mana replenishing


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