# Who is the Strongest Person, Tsunade can beat?



## Kazekage94 (Jan 31, 2014)

Title says it all

Location: Open field
Distance : 10 Meters
Knowledge: Full
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Katsuyu

Is she useless without her summon?


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## GKY (Jan 31, 2014)

Orochimaru maybe. She doesn't have the feats to back it up, but it was kind of portrayed like that in part 1. Then again, part 1 is ancient and doesn't apply much anymore to the manga. 

She can beat Kakashi under the right circumstances. So probably him.


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## Tarot (Jan 31, 2014)

maybe Kakuzu? She's only been in 2 fights, so it's hard to tell with minimal feats.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 31, 2014)

Death Arcana said:


> maybe Kakuzu? She's only been in 2 fights, so it's hard to tell with minimal feats.



She's shown the extent of her power against Madara, we know her arsenal inside out now, and she can't beat Kakazu. 



GKY said:


> Orochimaru maybe. She doesn't have the feats to back it up, but it was kind of portrayed like that in part 1. Then again, part 1 is ancient and doesn't apply much anymore to the manga.
> 
> She can beat Kakashi under the right circumstances. So probably him.




Going off of portrayal Part 1 Orochimaru =<Tsunade AND Jiraiya. Orochimaru should be able to easily handle her. 

Anyways IMO she can maybe beat Old Hiruzen, maybe not.


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## Turrin (Jan 31, 2014)

She could still beat a-lot of characters if they don't have knowledge on Byakugo, as that gives her a chance to ambush them when they believe she's dead and she only needs to land one blow. The problem is that while this gives her a chance against many people (despite lacking Katsuya), it's still kind of hailmary thing which doesn't make her odds of killing her opponent in many cases with something like this better than their odds of killing her. Also she's exposed her Byakugo to a-lot of people now, which also hurts her chances.


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## Bonly (Feb 1, 2014)

Without Katsuyu the strongest I see Tsunade being able to beat is Mei, although I personally find that to be a 50/50 shot which could lean in Mei's favor depending on the location.


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## asstonine (Feb 1, 2014)

GKY said:


> Orochimaru maybe. She doesn't have the feats to back it up, but it was kind of portrayed like that in part 1. Then again, part 1 is ancient and doesn't apply much anymore to the manga.
> 
> She can beat Kakashi under the right circumstances. So probably him.



Nothing that happened in part 1 suggests that at all.


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## Doge (Feb 1, 2014)

Living Madara.  Judging by calcs derived from Sakura's blasting blow and Tsunade's V2 Raikage speed (she has feats stop lying against facts) she'd kill him in like 3 seconds.


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## Kyu (Feb 1, 2014)

_Perhaps_ a Kamuiless Kakashi under these conditions.

Although Kakashi is pretty damn crafty, so I'm iffy on him.


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## katanalauncher (Feb 1, 2014)

Sasori, most likely.


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## wooly Eullerex (Feb 1, 2014)

katanalauncher said:


> Sasori, most likely.



 **


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## katanalauncher (Feb 1, 2014)

diadora Lotto said:


> **


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## ARGUS (Feb 1, 2014)

Old hiruzen, sasori (with antidote knowledge and prep) and maybe Mei under favorable conditions 
But I still think Mei would win more times than not


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Feb 1, 2014)

I'd say the Mizukage at the very least, and the Raikage at the absolute best, I.e. _incredibly_ favorable conditions for the Godaime. And even then, her odds are still worse than Ē's.

FlamingRain, it's your time to show us why we are all wrong.


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## Kai (Feb 1, 2014)

I'd go with the 2nd Mizukage, as Tsunade has way more stamina than he does and her regeneration is beyond even his most potent offense, Joki Boi. His method of hiding isn't beyond Tsunade's ability to discover, especially with Katsuyu's division ability.


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## asstonine (Feb 1, 2014)

Kai said:


> I'd go with the 2nd Mizukage, as Tsunade has way more stamina than he does and her regeneration is beyond even his most potent offense, Joki Boi. His method of hiding isn't beyond Tsunade's ability to discover, especially with Katsuyu's division ability.



Where did you see his low stamina?


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## LostSelf (Feb 1, 2014)

I should say Mei, 50/50 depending on the circunstances for both here.


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## Grimsley (Feb 1, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> She's shown the extent of her power against Madara, we know her arsenal inside out now, and *she can't beat Kakazu*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



dont kid yourself. tsunade would destroy kakuzu's old wrinkly ass - stay wanking.


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## Bonly (Feb 1, 2014)

Kai said:


> I'd go with the 2nd Mizukage, as Tsunade has way more stamina than he does and her regeneration is beyond even his most potent offense, Joki Boi. His method of hiding isn't beyond Tsunade's ability to discover, *especially with Katsuyu's division ability*.



OP said Tsunade without The Great Katsuyu-Sama though


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## GKY (Feb 1, 2014)

asstonine said:


> Nothing that happened in part 1 suggests that at all.





Destiny Monarch said:


> Going off of portrayal Part 1 Orochimaru =<Tsunade AND Jiraiya. Orochimaru should be able to easily handle her.
> 
> Anyways IMO she can maybe beat Old Hiruzen, maybe not.



I see where you guys are coming from. But I got the impression after part 1 that it was Oro>Jiraiya>Tsunade>Oro. Especially how Kishi let Tsunade have the final blow that KO'ed Oro. With that said, I've been wrong before so what do I know. 

Old Hiruzen seems like another possible option, but I think he's just about to get feats so I'm holding back on that one.


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## Synn (Feb 1, 2014)

Tsunade can destroy living Madara (with limited chakra and no Rinnegan).


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 1, 2014)

Without her summon? Well, a lot of her techniques require Katsuyu, so that's a bit of a big restriction. Though with or without Katsuyu, the answer to this question depends on a number of things:

1) Does the opponent have knowledge on Tsunade? If they don't know of her super strength, regeneration and resilience, they're at a massive disadvantage. 
2) How much chakra does she have stored inside her seal? If she has the same amount as she did during the Pein arc for example, her battle potential increases exponentially.
3) What location is she fighting on? In an enclosed area her smashy smashy tactics work very effectively, and in fact on any ground-based terrain these tactics will work well to some extent. On an ocean field her super strength and slug summon don't work nearly as effectively as they could on other fields.

With all that in mind, I would say Tsunade has the _potential_ - ie. with a lot of chakra stored up, Katsuyu unrestricted, and fighting an opponent without much knowledge of her on an advantageous field, to beat foes as strong as Deidara, Sandaime Raikage, Tobirama and Minato (alive).

However, under your stipulations, OP, where her opponents have full knowledge on her, and she can't use Katsuyu, I'd say she peaks at Mei Terumi. She has a shot against Orochimaru, but that could go either way . . and to be honest I would side with Orochimaru. Anyone else is simply going to avoid CQC or find creative ways to kill/decapitate her.​​


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## LostSelf (Feb 1, 2014)

Doge said:


> *Living Madara*.  Judging by calcs derived from Sakura's blasting blow and Tsunade's V2 Raikage speed (she has feats stop lying against facts) she'd kill him in like 3 seconds.





Synn said:


> Tsunade can destroy* living Madara *(with limited chakra and no Rinnegan).


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 1, 2014)

^ Synn means living Madara pre-death. As in no Sage Mode, mokuton or anything else, and . . to be honest, its not _that_ much of a stretch to assume that she could defeat that Madara.

Perfect Susano'o could kill her, that much is true, but if Tsunade had stored up considerable amounts of chakra in her seal and used it to bring out a big ass Katsuyu, she could at least avoid death against Madara. That way she could try to wait until he runs out of chakra. 

That isn't really a fool-proof strategy though, because Madara's reserves are enormous. Tsunade is by no means guaranteed a victory. Still, don't rule out the potential she has with her Yin Seal.​​


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## LostSelf (Feb 1, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> ^ Synn means living Madara pre-death. As in no Sage Mode, mokuton or anything else, and . . to be honest, its not _that_ much of a stretch to assume that she could defeat that Madara.
> 
> Perfect Susano'o could kill her, that much is true, but if Tsunade had stored up considerable amounts of chakra in her seal and used it to bring out a big ass Katsuyu, she could at least avoid death against Madara. That way she could try to wait until he runs out of chakra.
> 
> That isn't really a fool-proof strategy though, because Madara's reserves are enormous. Tsunade is by no means guaranteed a victory. Still, don't rule out the potential she has with her Yin Seal.​​



Katsuyu is restricted. There is also no proof that she could summon a bigger version of the Katsuyu we've seen her summoning. We don-t know much about living Madara, though. But this Madara was sure above the likes of Itachi, and confortably above Onoki and Muu together, that alone puts him probably more than two tiers above Tsunade (especially without Katsuyu).

Of course, it is Madara without being nerfed to Synn's version. However, just having PS makes any argument of Tsunade beating living Madara pretty, pretty hard to believe.

Unless she brings out Katsuyu The Forbidden One, that is.


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## Jagger (Feb 1, 2014)

Doge said:


> Living Madara.  Judging by calcs derived from Sakura's blasting blow and Tsunade's V2 Raikage speed (she has feats stop lying against facts) she'd kill him in like 3 seconds.


No, I'm pretty sure she doesn't have such level of speed.

However, you're most likely a troll and we've already seen Living Madara (without the amplifications caused by Hashirama's Senjutsu) completely outspeeding SM Naruto, the same man that was able to dodge the 3rd Raikage's speed with relatively ease.

So, yes, before you ask, that is EMS Madara as even Hashirama stated he gained back his old powers, which even reforces my point.


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> ^ Synn means living Madara pre-death. As in no Sage Mode, mokuton or anything else, and . . to be honest, its not _that_ much of a stretch to assume that she could defeat that Madara.






_VotE Madara?_



^ _Him?_

No, she looses bad. I mean real bad. Madara pushed Hashirama to the limit. Tsunade, with all the preparation in the world, stands no chance.


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## Jagger (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm still quite bothered at that comma in the middle of the title. :S


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Feb 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> _VotE Madara?_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, you beat me to it. Was about to post the same image, lol.


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## richard lewis (Feb 1, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> She's shown the extent of her power against Madara, we know her arsenal inside out now, and she can't beat Kakazu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol tsunade beats kakuzu pretty easily considering her strength was able to crack susanoo I'd go ahead and ay her punches would be enough to shatter doton domu and harm kakuzu underneath. Kakuzu's elemental jutsu/masks won't do much of anything here due to tsunade's healing so she eventually bashes his skull in and it's game over.

I'd say she has a decent shot at beating Ei she also has a pretty gos shot at beating Gai as well. I doubt she could beat jiraiya or Oro though.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 1, 2014)

She can beat a lot of people "stronger" than her under no knowledge circumstances, by merit of them allowing or trying standard CQC, or not knowing she can spring back to life and sucker punch them.  Though that's not always enough to beat them 6+ times out of 10.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 1, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Lol tsunade beats kakuzu pretty easily considering her strength was able to crack susanoo I'd go ahead and ay her punches would be enough to shatter doton domu and harm kakuzu underneath. Kakuzu's elemental jutsu/masks won't do much of anything here due to tsunade's healing so she eventually bashes his skull in and it's game over.



No, she has no answer to his tendril form and he can simply outlast her Byakougo.



> I'd say she has a decent shot at beating Ei she also has a pretty gos shot at beating Gai as well. I doubt she could beat jiraiya or Oro though.



Ei blitzes her, Gai blitzes her. 



What the hell is up with this Tsunade wank lately? Now she can beat EMS Madara? Is that some kind of joke? Madara can beat her with Ribcage Susanoo alone, scratch that, Madara can blitz her in base and cut her in half with Kenjutsu or simply Genjjutsu her off the get go. That s possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And don't go around calling me a hater, I don't hate Tsunade, I'm neutral with her, but the mere idea of beating any version of Madara bar sleeping, dead or old Madara is ridiculous.


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## asstonine (Feb 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> What the hell is up with this Tsunade wank lately? Now she can beat EMS Madara? Is that some kind of joke? Madara can beat her with Ribcage Susanoo alone, scratch that, Madara can blitz her in base and cut her in half with Kenjutsu or simply Genjjutsu her off the get go. That s possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And don't go around calling me a hater, I don't hate Tsunade, I'm neutral with her, but the mere idea of beating any version of Madara bar sleeping, dead or old Madara is ridiculous.



Gai might blitz her, but his gates are a dual edged sword.  He would be feeling the effect long before he could put her away, and then it's done.  Unless you want to talk 8 gates, but that's mostly meaningless.  If he is forced to go 8 gates he dies, thus she still technically beat him.


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## richard lewis (Feb 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> No, she has no answer to his tendril form and he can simply outlast her Byakougo.



Kakuzu tendrils won't do jack squat to tsunade, she caves his face in with one punch. With 3-4 punch she turns him into a puddle of mush. If I recall correctly tsunade was able to keep up Byakougo for several chapters, she probably could have kept it up much longer if she didn't have to waist chakra healing the other kages. I don't see stamina being much of an issue for her here. If naruto was able to catch kakuzu twice in a row with FRS I think tsunade would be able to get a punch in on him.



Destiny Monarch said:


> Ei blitzes her, Gai blitzes her.



sure they do, but she tanks their attack and punches a hole in their chest. Also you should note that I said she could *POSSIBLY* beat them. That doesn't mean that she wins more times than not, if you think she only wins 2/10 that still means it is possible for her to win under favorable circumstances. The OP says who is the strongest person it is possible for her to beat and I answered.



Destiny Monarch said:


> What the hell is up with this Tsunade wank lately? Now she can beat EMS Madara? Is that some kind of joke? Madara can beat her with Ribcage Susanoo alone, scratch that, Madara can blitz her in base and cut her in half with Kenjutsu or simply Genjjutsu her off the get go. That s possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And don't go around calling me a hater, I don't hate Tsunade, I'm neutral with her, but the mere idea of beating any version of Madara bar sleeping, dead or old Madara is ridiculous.



When did I ever say she was stronger than madara?


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## asstonine (Feb 2, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Kakuzu tendrils won't do jack squat to tsunade, she caves his face in with one punch. With 3-4 punch she turns him into a puddle of mush. If I recall correctly tsunade was able to keep up Byakougo for several chapters, she probably could have kept it up much longer if she didn't have to waist chakra healing the other kages. I don't see stamina being much of an issue for her here. If naruto was able to catch kakuzu twice in a row with FRS I think tsunade would be able to get a punch in on him.



Naruto is easily kage level in base.   He was able to get in close with clone distractions.  How many clones do you see Tsunade using?  Also, did you forget the part where kakuzu schooled Kakashi like a lil bitch in taijutsu?  She isn't hitting Kakuzu, and honestly even if she could there is reason to believe he would easily survive.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> _VotE Madara?_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



With the Kyuubi he stomps, though he only had the Kyuubi for one battle, so I generally don't consider it to be a main part of his arsenal. Without it, he wouldn't win without a lot of difficulty first.​


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## fior fior (Feb 2, 2014)

People actually believe that Tsunade stands a chance against Madara? He brings out his V3 Susano'o and murders her.

W/ Katsuyu, Itachi is the strongest opponent she can beat.

W/out Katsuyu, maybe Mei.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 2, 2014)

There's no way any Sannin is beating Itachi - let alone Madara - and Tsunade is the weakest one, anyway.

Without Katsuyu, the strongest individuals she can defeat are Hidan and Mei. 
With Katsuyu, the strongest individuals she can defeat are Ei and Kakuzu.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Feb 2, 2014)

Lol at people saying she stands any sort of chance against EMS Madara. She gets insanely stomped by him with or without the kyuubi. She has nothing that's getting through any version of his susanoo above the ribcage version. And get this Katsuyuu nonsense out of here. She's never displayed the ability to summon a full powered Katsuyuu. Period. 

Madara slaughters her.


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## KawaiiKyuubi (Feb 2, 2014)

Gai. 10char


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## Dominus (Feb 2, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> ^ Synn means living Madara pre-death. As in no Sage Mode, mokuton or anything else, and . . to be honest, its not _that_ much of a stretch to assume that she could defeat that Madara.​​



If you mean this Madara, then I agree.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Perfect Susano'o could kill her, that much is true, but if Tsunade had stored up considerable amounts of chakra in her seal and used it to bring out a big ass Katsuyu, she could at least avoid death against Madara. That way she could try to wait until he runs out of chakra.
> 
> That isn't really a fool-proof strategy though, because Madara's reserves are enormous. Tsunade is by no means guaranteed a victory. Still, don't rule out the potential she has with her Yin Seal.​​



Madara that you're talking about fought Hashirama for a full day, there are more chances of the Kuchiyose time running out before Madara becomes exhausted than vice versa, Katsuyu wouldn't be able to win this and he/she/it is restricted anyway.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 2, 2014)

^^^Dude you're awesome!


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> If you mean this Madara, then I agree.
> 
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> 
> ...



Time is not even the issue, of course Madara has ten folds more chakra then Tsunade. But he can also blitz SM Naruto and Sai. He can easily blitz Tsunade, she can't land a blow on him. And then there is Genjutsu. EMS Madara can beat her in base Easy-Diff. She's just a punching bag for him.



asstonine said:


> Gai might blitz her, but his gates are a dual edged sword.  He would be feeling the effect long before he could put her away, and then it's done.  Unless you want to talk 8 gates, but that's mostly meaningless.  If he is forced to go 8 gates he dies, thus she still technically beat him.



He can go into 6th and then 7th gate for a fairly long time and he did not feel the side effects until Kisame broke free from the trap. 



richard lewis said:


> Kakuzu tendrils won't do jack squat to tsunade, she caves his face in with one punch. With 3-4 punch she turns him into a puddle of mush. If I recall correctly tsunade was able to keep up Byakougo for several chapters, she probably could have kept it up much longer if she didn't have to waist chakra healing the other kages. I don't see stamina being much of an issue for her here. If naruto was able to catch kakuzu twice in a row with FRS I think tsunade would be able to get a punch in on him.



No, they have shown to be able to pierce a body with ease, Tsunade is not durable, her healing factor plays in after the damage is done but if he skewers her face there is nothing she will be able to do. She did not keep Byakougo active for a lot of chapters, it went on and off. Naruto catching Kakazu tide in a row was a prime example of plot armour and PIS, EVERYONE is fully aware of that and acknowledge it  Tsunade does not have the luxury of clones either, replace Tsunade with his clones that got stabbed and that's what would happen int here fight. 





> sure they do, but she tanks their attack and punches a hole in their chest. Also you should note that I said she could *POSSIBLY* beat them. That doesn't mean that she wins more times than not, if you think she only wins 2/10 that still means it is possible for her to win under favorable circumstances. The OP says who is the strongest person it is possible for her to beat and I answered.



No, they blitz her she gets sent flying, she gets back up, they blitz her again. Its POSSIBLE to beat Gai 2/10 for her, sure, but its IMPOSSIBLE to beat Ei for her, she stands no chance against him. 





> When did I ever say she was stronger than madara?



I was referring to the people who actually did. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> With the Kyuubi he stomps, though he only had the Kyuubi for one battle, so I generally don't consider it to be a main part of his arsenal. Without it, he wouldn't win without a lot of difficulty first.​



No, Madara blitzes her in the true sense of the word, and then if he is the mood for some rape he uses Genjutsu on her and does whatever he wants with her body from there. She does not stand a single chance against even base Madara.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 2, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Madara that you're talking about fought Hashirama for a full day, there are more chances of the Kuchiyose time running out before Madara becomes exhausted than vice versa, Katsuyu wouldn't be able to win this and he/she/it is restricted anyway.



I don't believe there's a time limit to a Kuchiyose, its not like it requires a continual drain of the user's chakra or anything.​​


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## richard lewis (Feb 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> No, they have shown to be able to pierce a body with ease, Tsunade is not durable, her healing factor plays in after the damage is done but if he skewers her face there is nothing she will be able to do. She did not keep Byakougo active for a lot of chapters, it went on and off. Naruto catching Kakazu tide in a row was a prime example of plot armour and PIS, EVERYONE is fully aware of that and acknowledge it  Tsunade does not have the luxury of clones either, replace Tsunade with his clones that got stabbed and that's what would happen int here fight.



Kakuzu's tendrils have never shown the ability to pierce the skin, let alone tare through bone. Every time he's used them it was used to grab people but not wound them. 4 4 both times he used tendrils on kakashi they did not pierce the skin. Show me a scan of kakuzu's tendrils tearing through bone and I will agree with you, but that has never happened so tsunade just rips the tendrils off or she pulls kakuzu towards her with them and punches him square in the face.

BTW tsunade activated byakugo in chapter 577 and kept it on until chapter 591. So I dont see her having to release it anytime soon. The fight likely wont even come down to stamina tsunade will kill him long b4 that.




Destiny Monarch said:


> No, they blitz her she gets sent flying, she gets back up, they blitz her again. Its POSSIBLE to beat Gai 2/10 for her, sure, but its IMPOSSIBLE to beat Ei for her, she stands no chance against him.



Eh I would have to disagree to be honest I think she beats gai more times then not. Considering kisame was able to tank his strongest jutsu tsunade definitely can. and against Ei think it's 50/50. But neither of us will be able to convince the other so I guess well have to agree to disagree.


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## Dominus (Feb 2, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't believe there's a time limit to a Kuchiyose, its not like it requires a continual drain of the user's chakra or anything.​​


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## LostSelf (Feb 2, 2014)

I thought this was a joke. But hell, how can we _seriously_ debate that Tsunade would stand a chance against EMS Madara? Sorry for laughing, but, fuck, Tsunade. You god tier level kage . I mean, she surpassed Nagato already .

And she is not overrated at all. Not even a bit .


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 2, 2014)

Authoritah said:


>



Good point, though Gamakichi's kuchiyose maintainability seems a lot weaker than Katsuyu's. Katsuyu was healing Tsunade and the other Kages for a hell of a long time before Orochimaru showed up and saved her (34 chapters). The fact that she maintained the Kuchiyose no jutsu for that long despite the fact that she was healing and trying to put Tsunade back together, is truly something to credit. Even after healing the other Kage and informing them of their current situation, Katsuyu still remained on the field [1] In fact, Katsuyu was _still_ on Tsunade's shoulder while she travelled from her battlefield to Naruto and co's. [1] Let's not forget that Katsuyu was _also_ on Sakura's field too healing and protecting the injured, maintaining the kuchiyose in two completely different areas at once. 

Even in Chapter 649 when Katsuyu disappears, she reappears again in the following chapter bigger and better than ever. She doesn't seem to require a rest like Gamakichi did. [1]

With that in mind, Katsuyu's contract running out doesn't seem likely at all, no more and no less so than Madara running out of chakra. 

And yes, I'm aware that Katsuyu is restricted, if you had read previous posts, you would know that this is hypothetical.​​


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## Dominus (Feb 2, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Good point, though Gamakichi's kuchiyose maintainability seems a lot weaker than Katsuyu's. Katsuyu was healing Tsunade and the other Kages for a hell of a long time before Orochimaru showed up and saved her (34 chapters). The fact that she maintained the Kuchiyose no jutsu for that long despite the fact that she was healing and trying to put Tsunade back together, is truly something to credit. Even after healing the other Kage and informing them of their current situation, Katsuyu still remained on the field [1] In fact, Katsuyu was _still_ on Tsunade's shoulder while she travelled from her battlefield to Naruto and co's. [1] Let's not forget that Katsuyu was _also_ on Sakura's field too healing and protecting the injured, maintaining the kuchiyose in two completely different areas at once.
> 
> Even in Chapter 649 when Katsuyu disappears, she reappears again in the following chapter bigger and better than ever. She doesn't seem to require a rest like Gamakichi did. [1]
> 
> ...



Too bad we don't know for how long Katsuyu can stay there, but it doesn't really matter in a battle with a man who has PS.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Kakuzu's tendrils have never shown the ability to pierce the skin, let alone tare through bone. Every time he's used them it was used to grab people but not wound them. 3 3 both times he used tendrils on kakashi they did not pierce the skin. Show me a scan of kakuzu's tendrils tearing through bone and I will agree with you, but that has never happened so tsunade just rips the tendrils off or she pulls kakuzu towards her with them and punches him square in the face.



He covers Narutos entire body here. With the kind of force he applied there its going through her cleanly. How do you think he gets his hearts anyways? He obviously uses his tendrils to dig through the persons body. 



> BTW tsunade activated byakugo in chapter 577 and kept it on until chapter 591. So I dont see her having to release it anytime soon. The fight likely wont even come down to stamina tsunade will kill him long b4 that.



On the contrary, Kakazu will kill her long before that. 





> Eh I would have to disagree to be honest I think she beats gai more times then not. Considering kisame was able to tank his strongest jutsu tsunade definitely can. and against Ei think it's 50/50. But neither of us will be able to convince the other so I guess well have to agree to disagree.



Gai simply forces her to regenerate for several minutes straight until her Byakougo disappears. 6th gate blitz is perfect for this. Ei blitzes her, how is that even debatable, if he was able to bliz Sasuke who had the MS and was physically faster then Tsunade too, then he would be able to blitz Tsunade even easier.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I thought this was a joke. But hell, how can we _seriously_ debate that Tsunade would stand a chance against EMS Madara? Sorry for laughing, but, fuck, Tsunade. You god tier level kage . I mean, she surpassed Nagato already .
> 
> And she is not overrated at all. Not even a bit .



The only way I can imagine is if it played out like in the manga, where he thought he killed her, and she sucker attacked him.  The Susano blade was extremely close to cutting into him, and without ET or Hashirama's regen, it probably would have been a fatal blow.  Even if it was only a mortal blow, and he then got pissed off and blew her up with perfect susano, he'd still die from having a sword embedded in his shoulder, or from one of her hits because she can canon explode his torso. So I suppose it's arguable that if she hadn't shouted "ORAAAAAA!" at the top of her lungs like a moron, or was a couple feet when she started the rush, or both, she might have pulled it off.  

However, I mean, she tried that in the manga, and it didn't work, and it's still Madara.  So I kind of think he'd just get out of it anyway because it's Madara.  But if someone said they see that strategy working a low percentage of the time in different circumstances against normal EMS Madara with no knowledge, I guess, okay.  I definitely don't buy her outlasting him or anything else like that working ever.  

The other method I'd entertain is one where Tsunade rides in on a magic chakra bird created from the memory of Dan, and she spring boards off Raikage in the 7th gate to spin kick Madara.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The only way I can imagine is if it played out like in the manga, where he thought he killed her, and she sucker attacked him.  The Susano blade was extremely close to cutting into him, and without ET or Hashirama's regen, it probably would have been a fatal blow.  Even if it was only a mortal blow, and he then got pissed off and blew her up with perfect susano, he'd still die from having a sword embedded in his shoulder, or from one of her hits because she can canon explode his torso. So I suppose it's arguable that if she hadn't shouted "ORAAAAAA!" at the top of her lungs like a moron, or was a couple feet when she started the rush, or both, she might have pulled it off.



Please show me where it was anywhere close to his actual body? It did not harm him, it did not even go through his Ribcage Susanoo. Susanoo's base swords are pretty weak, they won't be breaking through even Ribcage. 



> However, I mean, she tried that in the manga, and it didn't work, and it's still Madara.  So I kind of think he'd just get out of it anyway because it's Madara.  But if someone said they see that strategy working a low percentage of the time in different circumstances against normal EMS Madara with no knowledge, I guess, okay.  I definitely don't buy her outlasting him or anything else like that working ever.
> 
> The other method I'd entertain is one where Tsunade rides in on a magic chakra bird created from the memory of Dan, and she spring boards off Raikage in the 7th gate to spin kick Madara.



Madara blitzes her is really the not thing that is needed to be said.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 2, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Too bad we don't know for how long Katsuyu can stay there, but it doesn't really matter in a battle with a man who has PS.



By that same merit, we don't know how long Madara can keep up his PS. We can presume both can stick around for a hell of a long time, and that's good enough for me.​​


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 2, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The only way I can imagine is if it played out like in the manga, where he thought he killed her, and she sucker attacked him.  The Susano blade was extremely close to cutting into him, and without ET or Hashirama's regen, it probably would have been a fatal blow.  Even if it was only a mortal blow, and he then got pissed off and blew her up with perfect susano, he'd still die from having a sword embedded in his shoulder, or from one of her hits because she can canon explode his torso. So I suppose it's arguable that if she hadn't shouted "ORAAAAAA!" at the top of her lungs like a moron, or was a couple feet when she started the rush, or both, she might have pulled it off.
> 
> However, I mean, she tried that in the manga, and it didn't work, and it's still Madara.  So I kind of think he'd just get out of it anyway because it's Madara.  But if someone said they see that strategy working a low percentage of the time in different circumstances against normal EMS Madara with no knowledge, I guess, okay.  I definitely don't buy her outlasting him or anything else like that working ever.
> 
> The other method I'd entertain is one where Tsunade rides in on a magic chakra bird created from the memory of Dan, and she spring boards off Raikage in the 7th gate to spin kick Madara.



I guess Madara found out when she punched the blade.

But i think Madara can create a ribcage like he did (of course, if he finds out that she is still alive before being hit) considering he reacted and blocked to a surprise assault of V1 Ei when Madara was in the air And that punch was pretty close to his face. COnsidering how fast ribcage Susano'o can be activated (It seems Sasuke activated it before he hit the floor with enough speed/force when he was about be liger bombed. Or Itachi activated it before Kirin hit him (In Itachi's case he knew what was going to happen, but it's still fast), i think he can defend properly.

Unless he is never hit before noticing. If he, with no knowledge goes CqC then yeah, he's fucked. Considering how arrogant he is. But my point about that was Tsunade beating Madara with PS and his ninjutsu, like it was seemed the claim in the posts i quoted.

But i just don't see Kishi making her defeat EMS Madara, considering the huge hype he has been giving. Beating two jinton users without PS and easily, for example.

Oh, and Spirit-Gated Tsunade can only be defeated by Katsuyu The Forbidden One, Base Jiraiya or Toon Deva. But it would be 50/50 in my opinion.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Please show me where it was anywhere close to his actual body? It did not harm him, it did not even go through his Ribcage Susanoo. Susanoo's base swords are pretty weak, they won't be breaking through even Ribcage.



Bottom right corner when it's phasing out.  You can see the Susano sword actually penetrated and almost touched his shoulder.  It's difficult to tell in other pictures.  But that's why I think if someone

But Susano swords aren't weak.  They're made of Susano, and therefore, just as strong as susano, but thinner and sharper because they're formed into a blade.  They only get snapped by Tsunade because she's Hercules.



> Madara blitzes her is really the not thing that is needed to be said.



I don't get why you'd even say this.

The entire scenario pre-supposes Madara stabs her and assumes she's dead.  Why should I bother to explain how?  If people can't imagine Tsunade getting stabbed by Madara, I'll show a picture to them.

But the fact of the matter is, Madara has only been genuinely surprised twice in all his battle.  The first time was when Tsunade pulled possum, and the second was the chakra bird thing when super Lee blitzed him.  If you think the entire fight ends the moment Tsunade is stabbed, I'll show a picture to you.  Madara didn't turn around and blitz her then or anything, he threw up Susano ASAP to defend himself.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I ghess Madara found out when she punched the blade.
> 
> But i think Madara can create a ribcage like he did (of course, if he finds out that she is still alive before being hit) considering he reacted and blocked to a surprise assault of V1 Ei when Madara was in the air And that punch was pretty close to his face. COnsidering how fast ribcage Susano'o can be activated (It seems Sasuke activated it before he hit the floor with enough speed/force when he was about be liger bombed. Or Itachi activated it before Kirin hit him (In Itachi's case he knew what was going to happen, but it's still fast), i think he can defend properly.
> 
> ...



Ah, it was when she snapped the blade.  

My point was just that she was inches away from slicing him, so if she was closer, or maybe if he made the sword vanish after stabbing her so he didn't get a warning, one could argue it's possible without making me feel awkward.  

I'm with you in that I don't see Tsunade winning.  Especially against PS ninjutsu spamming Madara.  Mei even said they couldn't do jack against it, and the 5 of them put together were having a really hard time against just his regular Susanos.  Madara is just too far away from her level, and I don't think it would happen.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Bottom right corner when it's phasing out.  You can see the Susano sword actually penetrated and almost touched his shoulder.  It's difficult to tell in other pictures.  But that's why I think if someone
> 
> But Susano swords aren't weak.  They're made of Susano, and therefore, just as strong as susano, but thinner and sharper because they're formed into a blade.  They only get snapped by Tsunade because she's Hercules.



I see, whatever he still avoided it. 





> I don't get why you'd even say this.
> 
> The entire scenario pre-supposes Madara stabs her and assumes she's dead.  Why should I bother to explain how?  If people can't imagine Tsunade getting stabbed by Madara, I'll show a picture to them.
> 
> But the fact of the matter is, Madara has only been genuinely surprised twice in all his battle.  The first time was when Tsunade pulled possum, and the second was the chakra bird thing when super Lee blitzed him.  If you think the entire fight ends the moment Tsunade is stabbed, I'll show a picture to you.  Madara didn't turn around and blitz her then or anything, he threw up Susano ASAP to defend himself.



Madara CAN blitz her if he so wished, the fact that he was an Edo might have also had something to do with it. Point stands that he blitzed SM Naruto and Sai at the same time, Tsunade's reflexes are no where near that of SM Narutos, heck Sai might even have the same level of reflexes as Tsunade or a but worse, Madara can blitz her.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 2, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> By that same merit, we don't know how long Madara can keep up his PS. We can presume both can stick around for a hell of a long time, and that's good enough for me.​​



It doesn't matter when Madara is stronger.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2014)

> Madara CAN blitz her if he so wished, the fact that he was an Edo might have also had something to do with it. Point stands that he blitzed SM Naruto and Sai at the same time, Tsunade's reflexes are no where near that of SM Narutos, heck Sai might even have the same level of reflexes as Tsunade or a but worse, Madara can blitz her.



When did I ever say he couldn't?

Seriously.  What difference does it make if he walks up and slowly impales a byako Tsunade with a sword, or if he warps to her and impales byako Tsunade with a sword?

She's still going to survive the stab, and she's still going to regenerate from the stab wound.  It doesn't play any factor.



> I see, whatever he still avoided it.



And if Tsunade had been 10 feet closer, and he had less time to react, would his ribcage have made it in time?

What if she was right next to him?  

What if he had dismissed the sword and he didn't get a warning that she was alive?  Would the ribcage have made it in time?


----------



## Kickflip Uzumaki (Feb 2, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> When did I ever say he couldn't?
> 
> Seriously.  What difference does it make if he walks up and slowly impales a byako Tsunade with a sword, or if he warps to her and impales byako Tsunade with a sword?
> 
> ...



She's not surviving decapitation. Madara would know its like to fight a healer, having himself said Hashirama's regen was better, and would swiftly take her head off during said blitz if he was serious and not fucking around like vs the Gokage. Or would simply overwhelm Byakugou with constant mutilation and damage to her body til it runs out. He's that much faster than her with stellar Katon on top of it, she's got no prayer.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 2, 2014)

Kickflip Uzumaki said:


> She's not surviving decapitation. Madara would know its like to fight a healer, having himself said Hashirama's regen was better, and would swiftly take her head off during said blitz if he was serious and not fucking around like vs the Gokage. Or would simply overwhelm Byakugou with constant mutilation and damage to her body til it runs out. He's that much faster than her with stellar Katon on top of it, she's got no prayer.



He said that Hashirama and Tsunade had similar regeneration. Regardless, Tsunade has proved better regeneration then SM Madara btw.

And Madara "knew " how to handle Tsunade then why did he fail to when fighting her the entire time ?


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 2, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Ah, it was when she snapped the blade.



Yes, it was before that when he got the warning. But:



> My point was just that she was inches away from slicing him, so if she was closer, *or maybe if he made the sword vanish after stabbing her so he didn't get a warning, one could argue it's possible without making me feel awkward.  *



Even though i don't think the blade penetrated or if he did, it didn't penetrated completely to touch him, because in my eyes, the ribcage is more durable than the blade (Tsunade with more momentum cracking the ribcage, but breaking the blade with one hit). Even thinking that, i agree with this. 



> I'm with you in that I don't see Tsunade winning.  Especially against PS ninjutsu spamming Madara.  Mei even said they couldn't do jack against it, and the 5 of them put together were having a really hard time against just his regular Susanos.  Madara is just too far away from her level, and I don't think it would happen.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2014)

Kickflip Uzumaki said:


> She's not surviving decapitation. Madara would know its like to fight a healer, having himself said Hashirama's regen was better, and would swiftly take her head off during said blitz if he was serious and not fucking around like vs the Gokage. Or would simply overwhelm Byakugou with constant mutilation and damage to her body til it runs out. He's that much faster than her with stellar Katon on top of it, she's got no prayer.



In a no knowledge battle, Madara stabbed her in the torso and thought she was dead.  It happened in the manga.

Then when Madara gained knowledge, and learned she was a tank with regeneration, he bisected her.  It also happened in the manga.

Neither did he cut off her head, or over-whelm her regeneration with multiple slashes with or without knowledge.

As far as my scenario, I proposed that Madara had to have no knowledge, in order for her to genuinely surprise him.  I tried to be pretty clear in outlining how I thought it had to go down in order for it to be debatable, because otherwise there isn't even a question or doubt about how Madara beats her.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> When did I ever say he couldn't?
> 
> Seriously.  What difference does it make if he walks up and slowly impales a byako Tsunade with a sword, or if he warps to her and impales byako Tsunade with a sword?
> 
> She's still going to survive the stab, and she's still going to regenerate from the stab wound.  It doesn't play any factor.



Do you know what the implication of blitz means? She won't be able to touch him, while he will be able to kick her around like a ragdoll and she won't be able to do anything. She can't regenerate limbs, he could cut them down one by one and then decapitate her.  





> And if Tsunade had been 10 feet closer, and he had less time to react, would his ribcage have made it in time?
> 
> What if she was right next to him?
> 
> What if he had dismissed the sword and he didn't get a warning that she was alive?  Would the ribcage have made it in time?



He would still dodge it. And Edo body's are not as good as the originals.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2014)

Why would he keep hitting her after he thinks she's dead?


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## PAWS (Feb 2, 2014)

Tsunade defeats all these top tiers: High diff most

Hidan
Old Hiruzen
Kakuzu
Mei
Konan(No prep)
Hebi Sasuke
Orochimaru(No ET)
Second Mizukage


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Tsunade defeats all these top tiers: High diff most
> 
> Hidan
> Old Hiruzen
> ...



She gets raped by the bolded (Dude she can't even hurt the 2nd Mizukage, what -snip-) and she gets beaten by the characters underlined Mid-High Diff


----------



## Veracity (Feb 2, 2014)

If Ay starts in V1 he gets trashed. If he immediately goes V2 and uses a chop instead of a punch he might win.

2nd Mizukage can be drenched in acid. Water gun is dodged. Joki Boi is tanked. The clam is ripped to shreds and found via slug division.


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## PAWS (Feb 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> She gets raped by the bolded (Dude she can't even hurt the 2nd Mizukage, what kinda BS is that) and she gets beaten by the characters underlined Mid-High Diff



And why exactly cant she hurt him? is he indestructible? No she does not you underrate the shit out of her its not even funny.

Sure Ay is fast but he will NOT put her down. Speed means shit if you cant kill your opponent.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

PAWS said:


> And why exactly cant she hurt him? is he indestructible? No she does not you underrate the shit out of her its not even funny.
> 
> Sure Ay is fast but he will NOT put her down. Speed means shit if you cant kill your opponent.



-snip- Its called hydrification. She also cannot locate him in the mist. No she does not? Are you fcking kidding me? You think she has better reflexes then Sasuke with MS? Sasuke is both physically faster and has MS and even he got blitzed by Ei, Tsunade is getting blitzed twice as hard. 

Ei chops her head off, no counter to that sorry. 



Likes boss said:


> If Ay starts in V1 he gets trashed. If he immediately goes V2 and uses a chop instead of a punch he might win.
> 
> 2nd Mizukage can be drenched in acid. Water gun is dodged. Joki Boi is tanked. The clam is ripped to shreds and found via slug division.



-snip-How doe she get trashed in V1? Even in V1 he is considerably faster then Tsunade, and if Part 1 Kabuto can dodge ever attacks Ei does it 5 times easier. He might win? Stop wanking dude. 

No he does not get drenched in acid, Katsuyu nor Tsunade will ever find him in the mist. Water gone is not dodged if she is blinded by the mist. Joki boy hits her until Byakougo runs out. Slug division LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL


-snip-  She can now beat EMS Madara, Ei and the 2nd Mizukage LOLOLOLOLOL


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2014)

You guys should probably try to refrain from throwing around the words wank, over-rate, under-rate, calling people's posts BS, and responding with LOLOLOLOL.

Those kind of responses tend to be considered disrespectful and baiting, and often get your posts deleted.  Plus they're kind of just not constrictive.  But hey, I'm not a mod or your parent, so.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You guys should probably try to refrain from throwing around the words wank, over-rate, under-rate, calling people's posts BS, and responding with LOLOLOLOL.
> 
> Those kind of responses tend to be considered disrespectful and baiting, and often get your posts deleted.  Plus they're kind of just not constrictive.  But hey, I'm not a mod or your parent, so.



Well its not like they where the only words in my post, I followed them up with an explanation. If the Mod wants he can delete said words I don't really care. And I'm sorry if I am being disrespectful, but I like when people disregard all logic just to support one of there fav characters, people have to know there limits.

BTW saying LOLOLOLOLOLOL and wanking is not really disrespectful, neither is saying over and under rated.


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 2, 2014)

Come on *Monarch*, don't be a bad guy.

For the record, Ei _can_ kill her. He chopped his arm with a karate chop and his body is more durable than the Hokage. And chopped Hachibi's horn, wich is several times bigger than her.

If she dies of bisection or not is not proven, however this won't matter much, because if an opponent is as skilled/fast/strong to do that to her once, then it won't matter if she can heal. That opponent is troo strong, or, is a bad matchup for her and not be necessarily stronger as a shinobi when it comes to tiers.


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## PAWS (Feb 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> -snip- Its called hydrification. She also cannot locate him in the mist. No she does not? Are you fcking kidding me? You think she has better reflexes then Sasuke with MS? Sasuke is both physically faster and has MS and even he got blitzed by Ei, Tsunade is getting blitzed twice as hard.
> 
> -snip-  She can now beat EMS Madara, Ei and the 2nd Mizukage LOLOLOLOLOL



What are the Mizukage's chakra reserves? Oh thats right his only feats have been shown through edo tensei, so there is no way his hydrification is lasting out her yin seal. Unless you have a scan that shows he has a large chakra reserve?

Its also been said to use his clam justu he needs to be in range so Tsunade may not find him but Katsuyu in her liquid form can.

No knowlegde on Tsunade's regeneration he will shoot his water gun at her chest and she will survive and end him.


As for Ay I guess Tsunade cant take him down. But With no knowlegde he wont take her head off at first and I thought at that moment of surprise she would one shot him but his relfexes are too great.

I never once stated she takes down ems madara so go lololol somewhere else.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

PAWS said:


> What are the Mizukage's chakra reserves? Oh thats right his only feats have been shown through edo tensei, so there is no way his hydrification is lasting out her yin seal. Unless you have a scan that shows he has a large chakra reserve?



Dude. Hydrification is not chakra taxing to someone from the Hozuki clan. 



> Its also been said to use his clam justu he needs to be in range so Tsunade may not find him but Katsuyu in her liquid form can.



No, Katsuyu in any form cannot. And what IS Katsuyus liquid form? Do you mean her getting smaller? Yeah either way that's not going to work, even sensors where not able to find him. 



> No knowlegde on Tsunade's regeneration he will shoot his water gun at her chest and she will survive and end him.



She CAN'T end him, Taijutsu cannot harm someone in hydrification state. He will shoot a water gun at her head anyway. 




> As for Ay I guess Tsunade cant take him down. But With no knowlegde he wont take her head off at first and I thought at that moment of surprise she would one shot him but his relfexes are too great.



Actually he goes for head shots casually, he did so against Sasuke on all three occasions that he attack him. And she will not be fast enough to touch him even if it is a surprise attack, he dodged Ametarasu after all. 





> I never once stated she takes down ems madara so go lololol somewhere else.



Did I specify I was glaring about you? I was talking about the extreme that the wank has gotten to in general. IT was not directed at you.

BTW  sorry for being so harsh.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> -snip- Its called hydrification. She also cannot locate him in the mist. No she does not? Are you fcking kidding me? You think she has better reflexes then Sasuke with MS? Sasuke is both physically faster and has MS and even he got blitzed by Ei, Tsunade is getting blitzed twice as hard.
> 
> Ei chops her head off, no counter to that sorry.
> 
> ...


V1 Ay was countered by Jugo and Suigestu, and Darui kept pace with him.

Tsunade is of that speed level, and she's physically stronger, and is a better taijustu specialist then Ay. She also can take a hit from Ay, while Ay will die from one attack from her.

Water gun has one unimpressive feat. She can anticipate the attack and dodge it. Or just straight tank it.

Mizukage has less chakra then Tsunade therefore she outlasts him. And Katusyu divisions eventually find him and slaughter him.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Feb 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> V1 Ay was countered by Jugo and Suigestu, and Darui kept pace with him.



Intercepting ones attack does not make him fast enough to keep up under normal battle circumstances. Ei blitzed CS2 Jugo. Either way, he blitzes her in V2 no quests asked. 



> Tsunade is of that speed level, and she's physically stronger, and is a better taijustu specialist then Ay. She also can take a hit from Ay, while Ay will die from one attack from her.



No she's not. Yes she is. No she's not. No she can't. No he won't. 

Ei can blitz her. There is nothing you can say to deny this. She is both physically slower then Sasuke and does not have the luxury of MS and yet still Sasuke was blitzed. Ei cleanly cuts her head off. 



> Water gun has one unimpressive feat. She can anticipate the attack and dodge it. Or just straight tank it.



Are you saying cleanly going through a body is unimpressive  
She can't anticipate the attack if her vision is clouded by mist, she won't see the original. 
Tank it? To the head? No. I fact, she can't tank it but she can regenerate with Byakougo.  



> Mizukage has less chakra then Tsunade therefore she outlasts him. And Katusyu divisions eventually find him and slaughter him.



She can't outlast him if he kills her far before he wastes much chakra. Eventually is not enough, eventually Byakougo runs out and Mizukage snipes her in the head.


----------



## PAWS (Feb 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Dude. Hydrification is not chakra taxing to someone from the Hozuki clan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- That is not even countering my point, whether or not its chakra taxing he cant stay in the form long. Also its not stated anyway its not chakra taxing. She has more chakra than him. 

- Do I need to post scans? 

Katsuyu can telepathically talk to Tsunade so if Katsuyu is on someone, she can tell Tsunade if they are alive, where they are. Katsuyu's liquid form covered a large area so if she touches the Mizukage, she can tell Tsunade where he is. Now the Mizukage can stay out of the liquid's range but then he would be out of range for clam justu and wouldn't be able to use the water gun. This also helps against the mist as Katsuyu can point out which direction he is coming form. 

- Sure not in taijustu but as I have stated when he uses the form he uses chakra and she will outlast him and once he is back to normal, she will kill him. No the only time he has used the justu he aimed at Onoki's back, without knowledge he would do the same to her, he wont get a chance to use it if Katsuyu is in her liquid form as sh would tell Tsunade where the Mizukage is coming from. 

- Its cool, everyone gets heated.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 3, 2014)

First off, Mizukage's hydrofication hasn't shown to be anything like Suigetsu's.  Sui's was probably modified by Orochimaru to be more about turning into water and less about excreting oil.

Secondly, she has Raishinsho anyway, so it hardly matters.  She can just zap his system, and then punch him when he's helpless and can't make his body use jutsu or obey basic commands.


----------



## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> He can go into 6th and then 7th gate for a fairly long time and he did not feel the side effects until Kisame broke free from the trap.
> .



A couple minutes maybe, and that won't be long enough to finish tsunade.  I don't think he even has anything to finish her with.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Feb 3, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> First off, Mizukage's hydrofication hasn't shown to be anything like Suigetsu's.  Sui's was probably modified by Orochimaru to be more about turning into water and less about excreting oil.



Do you know how hydrification works? Just because Mizukage's is more oil like does not mean he can't comepletly turn his body into liquid. 



> Secondly, she has Raishinsho anyway, so it hardly matters.  She can just zap his system, and then punch him when he's helpless and can't make his body use jutsu or obey basic commands.



Raishinsho won't affect the Mizukage all that much. He would still be ale to perform hydrification and Jokey Boy is a technique that he does not need to control with his own body. She won't find him in the mist anyway though. 



asstonine said:


> A couple minutes maybe, and that won't be long enough to finish tsunade.  I don't think he even has anything to finish her with.



This ? 



PAWS said:


> - That is not even countering my point, whether or not its chakra taxing he cant stay in the form long. Also its not stated anyway its not chakra taxing. She has more chakra than him.



What are you talking about dude? Think before posting. If it is not chakra taxing why can't he stay in it for long? That makes no sense whatsoever. If it was not stated that it was not not chakra taxing then show me a panel where someone gets drained using it. Mizukage was in a weakened state after using Jokey Boy and he was still able to use it. 



> - Do I need to post scans?



Yes.



> Katsuyu can telepathically talk to Tsunade so if Katsuyu is on someone, she can tell Tsunade if they are alive, where they are. Katsuyu's liquid form covered a large area so if she touches the Mizukage, she can tell Tsunade where he is. Now the Mizukage can stay out of the liquid's range but then he would be out of range for clam justu and wouldn't be able to use the water gun. This also helps against the mist as Katsuyu can point out which direction he is coming form.



But she won't be on anyone. Mizukage easily avoids a slug, that's not even an option to find him. Katsuyu will be affected by the mist herself. 



> - Sure not in taijustu but as I have stated when he uses the form he uses chakra and she will outlast him and once he is back to normal, she will kill him. No the only time he has used the justu he aimed at Onoki's back, without knowledge he would do the same to her, he wont get a chance to use it if Katsuyu is in her liquid form as sh would tell Tsunade where the Mizukage is coming from. .



He does not use chakra as he has shown to use it in a very weakened state. He can stay in that form as long as he wants. Besides, she will be facing Jokey Boy which will keep pushing her back and eventually killing her. And she can't find him in the mist. Katsuyu will also be affected by the mist, how would she know.


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## Veracity (Feb 3, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Intercepting ones attack does not make him fast enough to keep up under normal battle circumstances. Ei blitzed CS2 Jugo. Either way, he blitzes her in V2 no quests asked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



V2 Yes, V1 no. If V1 is as fast as Darui who has never been mentioned to be fast at all, then Tsunade can keep pace no problem.

Ay specializes on slams and single hits, Tsunade is a taijustu master with a better stat then Kakashi. That's what she specializes in.

Ay could not floor Jugo with a single attack, and several landed attacks on KCM Naruto and Base bee didn't kill them. Tsunade has survived being Completley bisected for 34 chapters, has had her spine severed, her intercostal lungs severed, and survived several panels with her midsection in pieces, and still could blitz her opponent. Ay is not flooring her in one hit. Especially with Katsuyu division as a defense.

Ay does not have ribcage/body Sussano durabilty. He will not survive a hit.

- That's where Katsuyu comes into play. 
- Mizukage could not water gun a caught off guard Onoki so Tsunade is not getting headshotted.
- the technique does not have the speed feats to headshot her.
- any attacks landed get regenerated.

or Mizukage gets caught in the most by thousands of immortal Katsuyu clones, gets located. Once located his nervous system is scrambled and he is blown to pieces.


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## Krippy (Feb 3, 2014)

Wait, people actually believe a Mid - tier like tsunade wouldn't get blitzed and one shotted by a top - tier like EMS Madara?

Who ever believes this needs to leave the battledome and never come back.

On topic: The strongest she could beat is Orochimaru due to the bad matchup.


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## PAWS (Feb 4, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> What are you talking about dude? Think before posting. If it is not chakra taxing why can't he stay in it for long? That makes no sense whatsoever. If it was not stated that it was not not chakra taxing then show me a panel where someone gets drained using it. Mizukage was in a weakened state after using Jokey Boy and he was still able to use it.



Whether it takes up a lot of chakra or a little bit, its still takes up chakra. He has infinite chakra of crouse he will still be able to use it. If he is in a weakened state after using the tech as an edo I dont even want to imagine what it would do when he is alive. 



> But she won't be on anyone. Mizukage easily avoids a slug, that's not even an option to find him. Katsuyu will be affected by the mist herself.




*Spoiler*: __ 










Katsuyu will melt and spread out in each direction, Tsunade stands in the middle so if the Mizukage wants to get close he will have to step on katsuyu to get near Tsunade. 



> He does not use chakra as he has shown to use it in a very weakened state. He can stay in that form as long as he wants. Besides, she will be facing Jokey Boy which will keep pushing her back and eventually killing her. And she can't find him in the mist. Katsuyu will also be affected by the mist, how would she know.



Exactly my point he wont have the chakra to keep up with her. 
Joki boy takes up trememdous amount of chakra so he has to kill Tsunade quickly but with her byakugo tech he wont be able to. As for not seeing Joki boy any damage taken wont affect Tsunade as she will be standing in Katsuyu's liquid form.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 4, 2014)

> *Destiny Monarch*
> Do you know how hydrification works? Just because Mizukage's is more oil like does not mean he can't comepletly turn his body into liquid.



He hasn't shown the feats for it, and neither has his brother.  It was made clear that Suigetsu was kidnapped by Orochimaru solely for his clan's jutsu, and that his body was experimented on by Orochimaru to modify and enhance the jutsu.  Even the version shown by Kabuto is a far cry from the feats Suigetsu has performed.  

This is KN0 Naruto.

This is KN0 Naruto.

Pretty sure Minato has a tag on Kushina.


This is KN0 Naruto.

These are all the times Nidaime used the jutsu.

Pretty sure Minato has a tag on Kushina.


This is Kabuto's use of the jutsu.

Pretty sure Minato has a tag on Kushina.


This is Mangetsu's use of the jutsu.

So you notice something in common?  All of their hydrofication jutsu involve excreting oil through their skin, sloughing it off, or becoming slightly liquidy.  None of them have modified bodies or were kidnapped or experimented on by Orochimaru.

Now look at Suigetsu's hydrofication.







Pretty sure Minato has a tag on Kushina.


Do you see a marked different in speed, volume, and the ability to completely change his entire body into a thin watery liquid with the use of suika?  He's the only one who's been kidnapped and experimented on, and he's the only one who's shown this level ability with the suika no jutsu.  I don't think that's a coincidence, and I don't think we should assume that every member of the Hozuki clan has that same level of power.  

It also shouldn't be crazy to think that the jutsu might have been improved upon since the days of the Second Mizukage.  After all, even Shikamaru's shadow imitation jutsu used to be called the shadow binding jutsu back in the day, and that's probably because the clan technique underwent some changes as well.  

That isn't even considering the possibility that Suigetsu is just that much more talented in the jutsu than other members of his clan, which is another thing we've seen though the series.  Lots of fodder Uchiha had sharingan genjutsu, but Itachi and Shisui were vastly superior with their use of it.  All the Hyugas have byakugan and jyuken, but Neji was clearly better at it than Hinata, and despite Hinata, Neji, and Hiashi all having access to the airpalm, Hiashi is the only one who can high five the Juubi hand with his.  So I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I don't think that two people knowing the same jutsu automatically means they can use it to the same degree.  If we got or get a feat or even a statement hyping the Nidaime's use of suika no jutsu, or I see some fodders from the Hozuki clan turning a limb or their body totally to water, I'll change my stance in a heartbeat, but until then, I'm not willing to grant it.

And running an electric current through water should definitely have an effect.  Suigetsu himself has repeatedly stated that he's just too weak against electricity.  He's also shown that a sufficiently harsh impact can still KO him through hydrofication, as when he got KO'd by the shockwave from the bijuudama.  His water also still has a circulatory system, so Tsunade can apply a reverse shosen to overload his chakra network and cause a coma, as Kabuto did here.


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## nmwn93 (Feb 4, 2014)

I would say MINATO w/o the 9 tail chakra.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He hasn't shown the feats for it, and neither has his brother.  It was made clear that Suigetsu was kidnapped by Orochimaru solely for his clan's jutsu, and that his body was experimented on by Orochimaru to modify and enhance the jutsu.  Even the version shown by Kabuto is a far cry from the feats Suigetsu has performed.
> 
> This is KN0 Naruto.
> 
> ...



Kabuto became full liquidy, otherwise he would have also suffered someone of the side effects of his white rage. The Mizukage was very liquidy, but did not turn ful liquid, why would he have to? Hydrification is something that all those from the Hozuki clan can do. 




PAWS said:


> Whether it takes up a lot of chakra or a little bit, its still takes up chakra. He has infinite chakra of crouse he will still be able to use it. If he is in a weakened state after using the tech as an edo I dont even want to imagine what it would do when he is alive.



No, it does not take up chakra, its a natural ability to the Hozuki clan, unless you can prove me wrong I won't change my view. 




> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She obviously does not fully melt. That really does not mean anything. Besides, Tsunade can only summon 1/2 of that. 





> Exactly my point he wont have the chakra to keep up with her.
> Joki boy takes up trememdous amount of chakra so he has to kill Tsunade quickly but with her byakugo tech he wont be able to. As for not seeing Joki boy any damage taken wont affect Tsunade as she will be standing in Katsuyu's liquid form.



Joki Boy is not chakra taxing once its made, he only looses a lot of chakra after making it and it will continue to reform. Eventually Tsunade will die and no Kastuyu can save her. 



Likes boss said:


> V2 Yes, V1 no. If V1 is as fast as Darui who has never been mentioned to be fast at all, then Tsunade can keep pace no problem.



She is slower then Darui and Sasuke. She only has average pace, you have to face that fact. 



> Ay specializes on slams and single hits, Tsunade is a taijustu master with a better stat then Kakashi. That's what she specializes in.



Ay specializes inwrestling moves, Tsunade specializes in charging and attempting to land blows. She has no skill in combat. Kakashi is not in the slightest a Taijutsu specialist, he's fast but he does not use Taijutsu against opponents like Gai does. He's a Ninjutsu specialist. 



> Ay could not floor Jugo with a single attack, and several landed attacks on KCM Naruto and Base bee didn't kill them. Tsunade has survived being Completley bisected for 34 chapters, has had her spine severed, her intercostal lungs severed, and survived several panels with her midsection in pieces, and still could blitz her opponent. Ay is not flooring her in one hit. Especially with Katsuyu division as a defense.



He actually did knock out Jugo with a single attack after dodging his chakra cannon and he blitzed him, Jugo in CS2 is probably about the same speed as Tsunade. KM Naruto is durable as fck. He can cut her head off, its as simple as that. And she never blitzed her opponent.. Ay rams her in the head and its over. 



> Ay does not have ribcage/body Sussano durabilty. He will not survive a hit.



His durability is enhanced by V2 just like all his other physical attributes. In V2 I'm inclined to say he can take a hit from her. 



> - That's where Katsuyu comes into play.
> - Mizukage could not water gun a caught off guard Onoki so Tsunade is not getting headshotted.
> - the technique does not have the speed feats to headshot her.
> - any attacks landed get regenerated.



What are you talking about..........he clearly water gunned Ōnoki. She is getting head shotted. It pierced Ōnoki's clone in a second so I don't know how you came up with the idea that it does not have enough speed. Its basically a gun. From behind Tsunade he would hit her. She can regenarate until she does not have Byakougo left and then he finishes her off. 



> or Mizukage gets caught in the most by thousands of immortal Katsuyu clones, gets located. Once located his nervous system is scrambled and he is blown to pieces.



By the time they find him Tsunade will already have lost


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## asstonine (Feb 4, 2014)

Neko White said:


> I would say MINATO w/o the 9 tail chakra.



How does minato not plant a rasengan in her face?


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 4, 2014)

asstonine said:


> How does minato not plant a rasengan in her face?



I don't see why Minato would not  just troll her, teleporting from one Kunai to another every time she gets close until her Byakougo runs out.


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## PAWS (Feb 4, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> I don't see why Minato would not  just troll her, teleporting from one Kunai to another every time she gets close until her Byakougo runs out.



That would work against him as it would tire him and out and allow Tsunade to come up with a strategy against him having seens his tech over and over.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 4, 2014)

PAWS said:


> That would work against him as it would tire him and out and allow Tsunade to come up with a strategy against him having seens his tech over and over.



Ok he can teleport from Kunai to Kunai slicing and dicing her until her Byakougo runs out. Or quiet franckly he just decapitates her from the start.


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## Alita (Feb 4, 2014)

Anyone who thinks tsunade has a chance in hell against any version of madara that isn't his kid version or near death/really old version is wanking tsunade hard. Without katsuyuu the strongest she can beat would be either orochimaru or kitsuchi.


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Kabuto became full liquidy, otherwise he would have also suffered someone of the side effects of his white rage. The Mizukage was very liquidy, but did not turn ful liquid, why would he have to? Hydrification is something that all those from the Hozuki clan can do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Darui is not faster then Tsunade. Get that BS out of here. Darui is an elite Jounin leveled Shinobi who has never once been mentioned for his speed.

Yeah no. Tsuande specializes in taijustu. That's why she has a perfect score in that stat. And though Kakashi may not be a taijustu specialist, he is very talented in that regard. Able to out perform many high level opponents with only a kunai in CQC( MS Sasuke and legendary sword mans)

His very first hit against Jugo did not kill him, that's what I'm talking about. He was also only able to blitz Jugo to him directly thinking he killed Ay and literally laughing his ass off. Then he got blitzed.

Saying Tsunade is of CS2 Jugos speed is based on nothing. He has very limited feats( literally on fight) so you are going to have to provide feats for both them ha hate comparable, considering it's a statement you decided to say.

Cutting off her head is out of character. He has never once done that to an opponent. And he can only do so in V2. Sasuke was though to have killed his brother, and yet Ay only used V1. 

Okay that's shit. Provide some feat for Ay to suggest his durabilty increases in V2. Because in V1 he was pierced more then 3 inches by Sasukes Chidori. His durabilty is NO WHERE near Sussano. Tsuande kills him in one hit, and you know this. 

Where exactly did it pierce Onnoki? In his head ? Yeah exactly. It also pierced an exhausted Onoki clone. That is not impressive. A kick from PTS Lee appeared in Gaara's Adam's apple in .2 seconds. That doesn't mean that same kick will appear on Juubito in .2 seconds. Tsunade has the speed feats to at VERY least dodge the water blast enough for it to not headshot her.

Well considering Tsunade had Byakago activated for hours against Madara and considering he could simultaneously heal thousands of ninja, then we both can agree that she has massive amounts of chakra.  Joki boy takes massive amounts of chakra from the Mizukage, and just water gunning a moving Tsunade + Katsuyu division isn't as easy as you make it out to be.


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## Trojan (Feb 4, 2014)

Tsunade is on the same tier as her teammate IMO. The strongest she can beat is Oro without ET. 
she has a 50/50 chance against itachi. Those 4 are around the same level.


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## Kai (Feb 4, 2014)

Elia said:


> Tsunade is on the same tier as her teammate IMO. The strongest she can beat is Oro without ET.
> she has a 50/50 chance against itachi. Those 4 are around the same level.


Tsunade has absolutely no counter, reinforced by no knowledge, against Itachi's Sword of Totsuka. It defeated "Oro without ET" and his strongest jutsu effortlessly moments before Itachi's death.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Darui is not faster then Tsunade. Get that BS out of here. Darui is an elite Jounin leveled Shinobi who has never once been mentioned for his speed.



He blitzed Kinkaku and Ginkaku, better speed feats then Tsunade has ever shown. Him not being mentioned for speed means nothing. 



> Yeah no. Tsuande specializes in taijustu. That's why she has a perfect score in that stat. And though Kakashi may not be a taijustu specialist, he is very talented in that regard. Able to out perform many high level opponents with only a kunai in CQC( MS Sasuke and legendary sword mans)



Strength is part of Taijutsu. She specializes in regen and strength, this is a fact, being able to outmaneuver someone does not fall into the category of Taijutsu, that's close to Kenjutsu then anything. Also, he never outmaneuvered MS Sasuke. Unless you mean when he came out of nowhere and pushed a nearly blind Sasukes hand down. 



> His very first hit against Jugo did not kill him, that's what I'm talking about. He was also only able to blitz Jugo to him directly thinking he killed Ay and literally laughing his ass off. Then he got blitzed.



Ay blitzed Jugo before his second blitz, he knocked him agaisnt a wall before Jugo was able to do anything and then the second time he knocked Jugo out comepletly. 



> Saying Tsunade is of CS2 Jugos speed is based on nothing. He has very limited feats( literally on fight) so you are going to have to provide feats for both them ha hate comparable, considering it's a statement you decided to say.



Base Jugo has about the same level of speed feats as Tsuande, a bit lower. CS2 increases physical attributes. 



> Cutting off her head is out of character. He has never once done that to an opponent. And he can only do so in V2. Sasuke was though to have killed his brother, and yet Ay only used V1.



Its not out of character, he had went for Sasukes head several times in there encounter. 



> Okay that's shit. Provide some feat for Ay to suggest his durabilty increases in V2. Because in V1 he was pierced more then 3 inches by Sasukes Chidori. His durabilty is NO WHERE near Sussano. Tsuande kills him in one hit, and you know this.



Umm its pretty sad if you did not know that lighting armour increases the physical attributes. Seeing the huge gap between V1 and V2 in speed, we can only compare the diffrence in durability by ratio comparison. 



> Where exactly did it pierce Onnoki? In his head ? Yeah exactly. It also pierced an exhausted Onoki clone. That is not impressive. A kick from PTS Lee appeared in Gaara's Adam's apple in .2 seconds. That doesn't mean that same kick will appear on Juubito in .2 seconds. Tsunade has the speed feats to at VERY least dodge the water blast enough for it to not headshot her.



He shot his Kneck. She won't know he is behind her, she does not have sensing powers. 



> Well considering Tsunade had Byakago activated for hours against Madara and considering he could simultaneously heal thousands of ninja, then we both can agree that she has massive amounts of chakra.  Joki boy takes massive amounts of chakra from the Mizukage, and just water gunning a moving Tsunade + Katsuyu division isn't as easy as you make it out to be.



She did not heal thousands of ninja while fighting Madara, she did not heal anyone bar the Kages while fighting Madara. Joki boy does not require any chakra other then its initial usage. After the exploding clone is made Mizukage does not have to waste any more chakra. Slugs are slow, in case you did not know  and Tsunade won't be moving around randomly anticipating an attack, she will start to go on a rampage attempting to hit him.


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## Veracity (Feb 5, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> He blitzed Kinkaku and Ginkaku, better speed feats then Tsunade has ever shown. Him not being mentioned for speed means nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Speed feats for kin and gin please ? 
Also rusty Tsunade was able to blitz Oro, and current Tsunade could move as fast as Onoki could fly which is as fast as Deidara can fly. 

Yeah no, Strength is part of the strength category. Her regeneration is part of her hand seals and Ninjustu category. Nonetheless, she has a 5 in all 3 categories btw 

Do you even know what kenjustu is ? Lol. You aren't even close. It's simply fighting with swords.

Moves his arm ,dodges his kick, then kicks the shit out of Sasuke yeah ; this
This Sasuke had already been charms replenished from Karin btw. 

Ay did not blitz Jugo seeing as he was able to put up a defense before getting hit; this
Though his defense was destroyed, Jugo was able to survive and clearly use a jutsu  on Ay. 

Just saying Jugo is Tsunades speed means nothing. You are going to have to provide sound feats. Or atleast some evidence. Oro is faster then base Jugo, and rusty Tsunade was able to blitz him.

Ay aimed for Sasukes head twice in that entire fight. And the first time was purely based on the nature of an elbowed attack. The second time was probably due to the fact that ay was trying to stop Sasukes from spitting black flames. Regardless, the first time was in V1 , which would be Suicide against Tsunade who can react to Darius level of speed. Unless Ay automatically unleashes V2, then he loses this. And considering Tsunade is not as lethal as Madara Uchiha or Minato the yellow flash, then I assume Ay starts off V1.

Explain to me how that is sad? Just because a jutsu increases speed does not mean it increases durabilty. You are saying that 7th gated Gai is more durable then base Gai ? Especially considering it has never said such in the manga. Matter of fact , because you are pushing this so far, id like to see the direct scan where it says RnY Lvl 2 increases durabilty.

It's not like any of that matters anyway ^ as Ay is NOWHERE close to the level of durabilty as a Sussano Ribcage/ Body defense as the legendary Uchiha ; Madara Uchiha.

Feat for him getting hit in the *neck?

Actually it's right here; this
He had a clear chance to headshot but didn't. Shooting Tsunade through the neck won't even phase her. She's survived having her intercostal lungs severed. Which supercedes the act of drowning an individual and she survived this without Byakago and she was still able to blitz Kabuto without regeneration completely. It's also to note that the only reason Mizukage could even hit Onnoki was because he was incapable of moving. So hitting an unmovable object is not a speed feat, and still leaves that technique easily able to dodge.

That's why she has Katsuyu. 

I labeled those as two separate feats. 

The initial use of if takes a shit ton of chakra, especially considering he did l these feats as an Edo.  And using the Justu itself, weakened his body heavily; this


And the slugs do not have to be speedy. They just have to serve as distractions, and find the Mizukage with the sheer amount of them( thousands). They also can latch onto Tsunade and just move at her speed btw.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 5, 2014)

Kai said:


> Tsunade has absolutely no counter, reinforced by no knowledge, against Itachi's Sword of Totsuka.



She could _snap_ it before it sealed her if she had knowledge.

That's not to say she beats Itachi, though....


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## asstonine (Feb 5, 2014)

PAWS said:


> That would work against him as it would tire him and out and allow Tsunade to come up with a strategy against him having seens his tech over and over.



Well you have seen it over and over, whats the strategy?!

That's ok, I will wait.

Let's hear it!  Cuz as far as I am aware it has no weaknesses, thus no strategy can be created to avoid it.



Kai said:


> Tsunade has absolutely no counter, reinforced by no knowledge, against Itachi's Sword of Totsuka. It defeated "Oro without ET" and his strongest jutsu effortlessly moments before Itachi's death.



All she has to do is not get hit by it, or she could simply break it!

Something Orochimaru wasn't aware of!  
He got trolled by the plot, because he didn't have knowledge.  
Also, ET is Oro's strongest jutsu.



Elia said:


> Tsunade is on the same tier as her teammate IMO. The strongest she can beat is Oro without ET.
> she has a 50/50 chance against itachi. Those 4 are around the same level.



Sickly Itachi is not on the sannin level, hell he said it himself.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 5, 2014)

B fight Sasuke was still injured too.

If you read this page again, you'll see that Kabuto's jutsu was one he created after researching and _altering_ Suigetsu clan ability.

The jutsu isn't the same across the board.

So my question is, why would Kabuto need or want to alter the Suika jutsu and create his own version that allows him to liquify his organs, if the standard version lets him do all that and more?


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## Kai (Feb 5, 2014)

asstonine said:


> All she has to do is not get hit by it, or she could simply break it!
> 
> *Something Orochimaru wasn't aware of*!
> He got trolled by the plot, because he didn't have knowledge.
> Also, ET is Oro's strongest jutsu.


Bro, it's something Tsunade isn't aware of either.

As shown in her fight with Madara, she tanks any and all of Susanoo's attacks indiscriminately. The Sword of Totsuka will strike her decisively and Tsunade will enable it due to her incorrect choice of defense fueled by no knowledge.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 5, 2014)

^^^^^^

I think she'd probably tank it without knowledge.  It also seems really fast and hard to dodge in its extension, so not getting hit by it is probably easier said than done.

Choosing to tank is what screwed Oro, and he didn't bother even thinking about dodging for the same reasons Tsunade would.  It's a tiny little stab that won't phase them with their regen.  If byako is off, and it probably shouldn't be, then it's more likely she'd try to dodge, for the same reason Oro would if he couldn't regenerate.

I kind of assume the sword is really fast because it seems that way, but honestly we don't have a clear cut usage of it where anyone tried to evade it, so it's difficult to gauge the speed of it.  Orochimaru didn't care, and Nagato had obscured vision, was controlled by Kabuto, and had compromised mobility to begin with.  His eyes switched back to Nagato's self-control color scheme in a time frame that leaves it ambiguous as to whether he gained control before or after being stabbed.  If it's after, it's arguable Nagato wanted to get stabbed, and stood there on purpose in the same way he just let himself get burned up by ameterasu for a long time until Kabuto took over and made him ST it away.  The ameterasu feat also seems to violate the auto-counter protocol of edo tensei, which I've always found wierd.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 5, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Speed feats for kin and gin please ?
> Also rusty Tsunade was able to blitz Oro, and current Tsunade could move as fast as Onoki could fly which is as fast as Deidara can fly.



They where fast enough not to get blitzed by Tobirama back in there day, they also Shunshined to Darui very fast through he got his arm off. Tsunade did not blitz Oro, this was already explained, he was surprised and caught off guard by the fact that she overcame her fear of blood. THIS WAS CLEAR. Besides, Orochimaru was at his peek of sickness at that time, so she caught a dying man off guard. She is not faster then Ōnoki in flight either, jumping in the air to intercept a attack you know you can tank is not much of a speed feat.



> Yeah no, Strength is part of the strength category. Her regeneration is part of her hand seals and Ninjustu category. Nonetheless, she has a 5 in all 3 categories btw



And where does durability fall under? 



> Do you even know what kenjustu is ? Lol. You aren't even close. It's simply fighting with swords.



It falls closer to the category of Kenjutsu then it does to Taijutsu, dude, is that so hard to understand. 



> Moves his arm ,dodges his kick, then kicks the shit out of Sasuke yeah ; B fight Sasuke was still injured too.
> This Sasuke had already been charms replenished from Karin btw.



Do you not see his state? Sasuke was nearly blind at that point. 



> Ay did not blitz Jugo seeing as he was able to put up a defense before getting hit; B fight Sasuke was still injured too.
> Though his defense was destroyed, Jugo was able to survive and clearly use a jutsu  on Ay.



Still blitzed him as Jugo was not able to physical dodge. 



> Just saying Jugo is Tsunades speed means nothing. You are going to have to provide sound feats. Or atleast some evidence. Oro is faster then base Jugo, and rusty Tsunade was able to blitz him.



Tsunade did not blitz Oro. Stop ignoring CLEAR statements to try to help your argument. He was surprised she had overcome her fear of blood, that's all. 



> Ay aimed for Sasukes head twice in that entire fight. And the first time was purely based on the nature of an elbowed attack. The second time was probably due to the fact that ay was trying to stop Sasukes from spitting black flames. Regardless, the first time was in V1 , which would be Suicide against Tsunade who can react to Darius level of speed. Unless Ay automatically unleashes V2, then he loses this. And considering Tsunade is not as lethal as Madara Uchiha or Minato the yellow flash, then I assume Ay starts off V1.



Except the first one would knock her out cold if she is not using Byakougo. Once she activates Byakougo Ay will know to step up his game as well and blitz her in V2. Your ignoring the fact that Tsunade does not activate Byakougo at the start off the fight. 



> Explain to me how that is sad? Just because a jutsu increases speed does not mean it increases durabilty. You are saying that 7th gated Gai is more durable then base Gai ? Especially considering it has never said such in the manga. Matter of fact , because you are pushing this so far, id like to see the direct scan where it says RnY Lvl 2 increases durabilty.



The more chakra he pours into his armour the thicker it gets and the more stimulative it gets. 



> It's not like any of that matters anyway ^ as Ay is NOWHERE close to the level of durabilty as a Sussano Ribcage/ Body defense as the legendary Uchiha ; Madara Uchiha.





> That's true. But Tsunade only cracked Ribcage Susanoo by herself.





> Feat for him getting hit in the *neck?
> 
> Actually it's right here; B fight Sasuke was still injured too.
> He had a clear chance to headshot but didn't. Shooting Tsunade through the neck won't even phase her. She's survived having her intercostal lungs severed. Which supercedes the act of drowning an individual and she survived this without Byakago and she was still able to blitz Kabuto without regeneration completely. It's also to note that the only reason Mizukage could even hit Onnoki was because he was incapable of moving. So hitting an unmovable object is not a speed feat, and still leaves that technique easily able to dodge.



She never blitzed Kabuto, another non-existent asspull your giving her. He dodged all her attacks until he, like Orochimaru, got to cocky. And Tsunade won't be able to see him, so it does not matter. 



> That's why she has Katsuyu.



Katsuyu for what?



> I labeled those as two separate feats.



What? Fighting Madara and healing thousands of Ninja? No you did not, or you simply do not know what simultaneously means. 



> The initial use of if takes a shit ton of chakra, especially considering he did l these feats as an Edo.  And using the Justu itself, weakened his body heavily; B fight Sasuke was still injured too.



Yes it does, but aft that he simply hides. 



> And the slugs do not have to be speedy. They just have to serve as distractions, and find the Mizukage with the sheer amount of them( thousands). They also can latch onto Tsunade and just move at her speed btw.



Why would Mizukage attack the slugs when his inital opponent is Tsunade?


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## Veracity (Feb 6, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> They where fast enough not to get blitzed by Tobirama back in there day, they also Shunshined to Darui very fast through he got his arm off. Tsunade did not blitz Oro, this was already explained, he was surprised and caught off guard by the fact that she overcame her fear of blood. THIS WAS CLEAR. Besides, Orochimaru was at his peek of sickness at that time, so she caught a dying man off guard. She is not faster then Ōnoki in flight either, jumping in the air to intercept a attack you know you can tank is not much of a speed feat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That entire battle is completely Featless. Not to mention that kin and gin were aided by 20 elite Jounins( PTS Kakashis level btw) and probabaly had weeks of prep. Tobirama had no prep, knowledge, and was probaably ambushed. Don't ever use them "defeating" Tobirama as a speed feat, especially when there is no feat to begin with. This shit stems back to Kakzuzu surviving against Hashirama, so he has the speed and overall power feat to hold Hashirama back right ? 

How can you shunshin somewhere to where it appears fast ? Shunshin looks the same when anyone does it. It's just the characters or attack they shunshin to blitz or avoid that makes the shunshin impressive. When Lee went 5th gate, his speed appeared more impressive then V2 AY for that matter.

You never explained anything at all. You CLAIMED that he was only blitzed due to him thinking Tsunade was dead. This is false because Oro has just saw her get back up from 3 other slashes that Completley tore though her organs, and knew then that he wasn't putting her down by simply slashing more. He also has knowledge of her extreme pain tolerance, her regeneration, and the fact that she is the most advanced medical ninja to date. He knew damn well he wasn't doing shit. You also CLAIMED that it wasn't a blitz due to the question marks, yet these all have question marks and are solid blitzes; disagrees
disagrees
Not to mention the position Tsunade was in. She had get up from on her back( mid section in pieces) and fully uppercut Oro who has a 4 in speed, and this is a slower version of Tsunade.

Doesn't matter. Tsunade most certainly is not a 5 if there was a Durabilty stat , and heavily relies on her regen which is Ninjustu.

Do you know what kenjustu is ? Tell me what kenjustu is because you are pretty wrong.

Yeah no. He had bitten Karin ; disagrees 
Who completely heals your body up, and after that only created 2 Chidori's, then talked with Tobi for a bit. He then almost blitzed Sakura then Kakashi stepped in. He wasn't even close to blind. His eye was open the entire time, and his body was moving perfectly fine.

That's not a blitz at all? That's like saying Kakashi blitzed Sasuke considering he wasn't able to Completley dodge his kick. A blitz is not being able to react at all. Jugo was CLEARly able to react and block Ay's attack.

So he wasn't surprised after he saw her get up from his same attack 3 other times ? 

She usually does activate it at the start before fighting. That's kind of a rule btw; disagrees and she activated such before fighting Madara.

Ay will not have the chance to step up his game and activate V2. If he rushes in V1, a punch connects to his chest and kills him.

That doesn't mean anything and is proven by what ? Scan ? And it's still doesn't quantify he survives something that comptetely obliterated Sussano. 

disagrees 
She was also not able to breath when she did this.

Other then the fact that Mizukage could say entire sentences and Onnoki even noticed him before he fired his gun; disagrees
And the only reason Onoki didn't Jinton his ass was because he was incapable of moving. Tsunade should react perfectly fine. She also has Katusyu units to find and inform Tsuande on the mizukages whereabouts. She also can wear Katsuyu as extra defense which should comfortably block water gun.

For finding the Mizukage.

Ahh well whatever. It's 2 separate feats.

And gets caught by the Katsuyu division which could alone solo him at that
moment because he will be chakra exhausted .

Because that are attacking him?


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 6, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> That entire battle is completely Featless. Not to mention that kin and gin were aided by 20 elite Jounins( PTS Kakashis level btw) and probabaly had weeks of prep. Tobirama had no prep, knowledge, and was probaably ambushed. Don't ever use them "defeating" Tobirama as a speed feat, especially when there is no feat to begin with. This shit stems back to Kakzuzu surviving against Hashirama, so he has the speed and overall power feat to hold Hashirama back right ?



No. They also attacked Tobirama and the 2nd Raikage by themselfs and broug both to the brink of death. Its obvious some kind of speed was used against them which they dealt with. And no, Hashirama is faster then Kakuzu, and back then Kakuzu did not even have his tendrils nor his elemental hearts (not that would have mattered). 



> How can you shunshin somewhere to where it appears fast ? Shunshin looks the same when anyone does it. It's just the characters or attack they shunshin to blitz or avoid that makes the shunshin impressive. When Lee went 5th gate, his speed appeared more impressive then V2 AY for that matter.



That's because he was fighting someone that would have gotten blitzed by Hebi Sasuke easily alone. While Ay dealt with Sasuke (who is FARFARAFAR stronger then Chunin exams Gaara). 



> You never explained anything at all. You CLAIMED that he was only blitzed due to him thinking Tsunade was dead. This is false because Oro has just saw her get back up from 3 other slashes that Completley tore though her organs, and knew then that he wasn't putting her down by simply slashing more. He also has knowledge of her extreme pain tolerance, her regeneration, and the fact that she is the most advanced medical ninja to date. He knew damn well he wasn't doing shit. You also CLAIMED that it wasn't a blitz due to the question marks, yet these all have question marks and are solid blitzes; [2]
> [2]
> Not to mention the position Tsunade was in. She had get up from on her back( mid section in pieces) and fully uppercut Oro who has a 4 in speed, and this is a slower version of Tsunade



No if you actually bothered to read and not just skip the dialogue and look at the pictures you would know that he was clearly surprised that she got over her fear of blood. He also had knowledge of her fear of blood, which is why it surprised him when she managed to overcome it. The signs where there to reinforce the fact that Oro was surprised at her getting back up. And BTW, this was also a slower version of Oro. Oro was much more restricted then Tsunade was. 



> Doesn't matter. Tsunade most certainly is not a 5 if there was a Durabilty stat , and heavily relies on her regen which is Ninjustu.



My point was that things like speed and strength, or any other physical attributes fall under thenTaijutsu category. If you do not know what Taijutsu is then look it up. 



> Do you know what kenjustu is ? Tell me what kenjustu is because you are pretty wrong.



It is a battle style with a sword. Do yo know what Taijutsu is? Because if you did then you would know that battle with a Kunai falls much closer into the Kenjutsu area then Taijutsu. 



> Yeah no. He had bitten Karin ; [2]
> Who completely heals your body up, and after that only created 2 Chidori's, then talked with Tobi for a bit. He then almost blitzed Sakura then Kakashi stepped in. He wasn't even close to blind. His eye was open the entire time, and his body was moving perfectly fine.



No, don't spout BS. Sasuke was nearly *blind *, are you seriously denying this? It is a fact. 



> That's not a blitz at all? That's like saying Kakashi blitzed Sasuke considering he wasn't able to Completley dodge his kick. A blitz is not being able to react at all. Jugo was CLEARly able to react and block Ay's attack.



Ay rammed Jugo into the wall before he was able to do anything short of moving his hand. Sure it was not the most impressive blitz we have seen but it was a blitz nevertheless. 



> So he wasn't surprised after he saw her get up from his same attack 3 other times ?



I'm done spoon feeding you the answers. Read *carefully * and your answer will be found. 



> She usually does activate it at the start before fighting. That's kind of a rule btw; [2] and she activated such before fighting Madara.



She did not activate it when she charged Kabuto and Oro.........She did not activate it against Naruto...........She did not instaly activate it agaisnt Madara.



> Ay will not have the chance to step up his game and activate V2. If he rushes in V1, a punch connects to his chest and kills him.



No. A punch from a Non-Byakougo Tsunade is not killing him. She is not  dodging his elbow thrust if she charges herself. 



> something that comptetely obliterated Sussano.



The proper word would be cracked Ribcage Susanoo actually. 



> Other then the fact that Mizukage could say entire sentences and Onnoki even noticed him before he fired his gun; [2]
> And the only reason Onoki didn't Jinton his ass was because he was incapable of moving. Tsunade should react perfectly fine. She also has Katusyu units to find and inform Tsuande on the mizukages whereabouts. She also can wear Katsuyu as extra defense which should comfortably block water gun.



Jinton who? Mizukage? Well lets not forget that Ōnoki had no way to find Mizukage. Tsunade is NOT reacting if she is blind by the mist and he comes behind her. Katsuyu is not finding him either. Weak Katsuyu? LoL Katsuyu can now be armour LOL. 




> For finding the Mizukage.
> 
> Ahh well whatever. It's 2 separate feats.
> 
> ...



Katsuyu is not finding Mizukage. Katsuyu cannot do anything other then spit acid. Which gets lol dodged by any character in the manga.


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