# Nagato vs. Hashirama



## trance (Jun 6, 2013)

Location: VotE

Intel: Full for Nagato, moderate for Hashirama

Distance: 30m

Mindset: IC

Scenarios-

Scenario 1: Six Paths of Pain against Hashirama

Scenario 2: Healthy Nagato (who can move at Tendo's speed) against Hashirama


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## Bonly (Jun 6, 2013)

Hashi vs Nagato.

I'd favor Hashi more times then not.

Nagato has the means to do a decent job here with Asura+Deva path. Nagato has missiles,head canons,rocket boots to fly, and an arm canon. 
With Deva path he has normal size ST, a ST that was used on Gamatrio and a ST that destroyed the leaf as well as CT.

So with all of the above Nagato can use his Asura+Deva path powers to constantly destroy wood that comes towards him so he wouldn't get completely stomped, the problem is that he's likely to get overwhelmed due to the sheer size of Hashi's wood(:ho) coming from multiple angles eventually. This would likely come down to who can outlast who. Both are chakra tanks but I believe after seeing how Hashi is taking on EMS Madara with Kurama and doing multiple wood techs on such huge levels as well as has a Sage Mode to further increase every stat and all his jutsu, as well as Hashi having his own version of Byakugo, Hashi should outlast Nagato. Nagato's good and at a high level but Hashi is on a higher level.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 6, 2013)

hashirama would take this match in base. 

- hashirama arsenal in base is casually village level. jukai koutan, flower world.

-nagato needs to use the absolute limits of his rinnegan power to reach such a scale.

-nagato said that 50% kyuubi in its 8-tailed state was stronger than chibaku tensei:


-hashiramas arsenal of map changing jutsus hold more power than the kyuubis physical strength.

conclusion: nagato is hardly suited for fighting someone like hashirama when he can barely fight on the scale that hashirama operates on casually,* in base*. this isnt even including sage mode, which if hashirama used, he would one shot nagato.
hashirama wins this with the flower world.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 6, 2013)

At best Nagato pushes Hashi into SM where he eradicated after

With full knowledge Nagato is going straight into the air with the Bird and having Gedo Mazo, Cerberus and every other summon rampage. Hashirama is going to damn near casually counter with _Mokuton_ leaving Nagato with no oher options than uber nuke

At this point Nagato is gonna either opt for CST & CT at this point. The former isn't killing Hashi unless its at point-blank... which it won't be due to Nagato staying out of range, while CT usage just gets met with SM Gigazord obliteration 

Nagato is simply outclassed... in literally almost every way.... he'll feat wise Hashi can beat Madara + Nagato/Naruto 

Different tier this man is


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 6, 2013)

Don't really understand what 'moderate' knowledge entails, for Hashirama. Does he have a basic understanding of each and every ability of Nagato's? For example, will he be aware that the latter's Deva ability is essentially a repel-attract technique? That was Kakashi's 'moderate' knowledge.

Still, Base Hashirama absolutely destroys him. Nagato's best chance for victory, with full knowledge of Hashirama's exceedingly superior firepower, is using Bansho Ten'in to bring him close for a Soul Removal or stab from a Chakra Rod. However, knowledge or not, Hashirama can easily counter by latching onto a piece of rock with Wood Style. Or using said Wood Style to throw off Nagato's balance while he's flying towards him.

From there, Base Hashirama absolutely dominates. Strong as Nagato's techniques are, they can't hope to compete with Wood Style: Laughing Buddha, or even scratch the likes of Wood Style: Wood Explusion, given that it tanked a Tailed Beast Bomb from 100% Kyuubi. Said appendages of the Wood Style: Laughing Buddha was also strong and fast enough to effortlessly block a 132-megaton slash from Perfect Susano'o, that's more than enough to destroy even Chibaku Tensei.

Nagato has no way of deflecting Hashirama's techniques nor enough firepower to do a damned thing against his defensive arsenal. Sage Mode isn't even required here. Base Hashirama takes this with zero difficulty.


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## Jagger (Jun 6, 2013)

I was going to say we're underestimating Nagato a little bit, but I saw Sage Mode was unrestricted, so yeah...


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## Nikushimi (Jun 7, 2013)

Where are the restrictions?



...Oh, there are none?


Well then.


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## Trojan (Jun 7, 2013)

Well, Hashi will win more than not. However, I don't believe in all the nonsense about how he'll stomp
everyone and blah blah blah. Kakuzu fought him and survive even though he did not had his strongest jutsu
(the 5 hearts and the 5 elements.) 

Nagato can use his ST or his Asura's canon to destroy the wood that Hashi use against him, saying the wood
will attack from everywhere is nonsense and the same with saying that they won't be stooped. As we have seen Naruto was able to stop Madara's jutsu and Onoki was also able to destroy that lower jutsu, Hiruzen
destroyed Hashi's jutsu with his stuff as well. Also, the jutsu is ONLY attacked from forward as we saw it's 
exaggerating things  to say its from everywhere, hell Madara was fighting it with basic Fire jutsu. 

Nagato can also use his summon to fly and therefore he can dodge all Hashi's wood without even trying!  
some fanboys may say "oh the wood will grow up and cover the sky," and all of their fiction, but well, we have
never seen such thing from him or any other wood user in the manga. 

CT can easily defeat any wood jutsu that we saw other than the Buddha. He also has the GM and those
dragons that can kill anyone with one touch, or as we saw in the war he has another jutsus that it used against Choji and the others. 

Hashi cannot win in base against Nagato, however, he can win with his SM and the Buddha. 
I'm not sure if Nagato used BT against Hashi to take him away from the Buddha, is that going to stop it?
more likely, yes. But still I would give it to Hashi more times than not.


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## Sarry (Jun 7, 2013)

Hashi will win this with ease. 

Nagato is certainly a tough oponent. But Hashi, and by extension, Madara are both in a league of their own. 
Hashi has shown jutsus on tremendous scale, something that Nagato has struggled to reach. 


Hashi wins.


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## Jozu (Jun 7, 2013)

severe nagato underestimation here. 

nagato is a RINNEGAN user. the same as the sage of the six paths who solo'd the juubi.

the rinnegan is the most haxed tech. in the manga.

petra path means all of wood boys jutsu are useless.
asura path means insta-huge chakra cannons
human path means soul suck _with a sinlge touch_
deva path means insta chibaku tensei, which hashi is NOT surviving

Even if nagato _does_ die he still has *outer path* wich according to the wiki



> The Outer Path (外道, Gedō) is the seventh path, an ability granted to the wielder of the Rinnegan. With the Outer Path, the user is able to control life and death by reviving the dead, binding and restricting foes, as well as creating and controlling the Six Paths of Pain.



he can control *life and death*. that's more haxed than izanagi. 

nagato wins mid diff.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 7, 2013)

Hashi Wins. There aren't any Ninja outside of his Era than can compete with him.

But Nagato doesn't get stomped most definitely not aside from Naruto and Bee ,
Nagato chakra levels are stupid retarted legit Bijuu level.

1.Control'd 6 Different Bodies/6 Different Jutsu
2.Attack'd Konoha with 6 Bodies. 6 Different missions/ 6 Different multiple battles. Only 1 died.
3.He then Ground Zero'd The Leaf Village....He can only do this controlling 1 body.
4.He was able to controll his 6bodies again shortly after. Fight and defeat SM Naruto,Ma, Pa and 3 Boss Summons.
5.He fought a 6tails Kyuubi, got closer to his original body to use CT, which a 8-9tails escape. But he was still going to make it bigger.
6.He still fought naruto after, and then revived every ninja that he killed with his Pein bodies and Shinra Tensei.
7...This was a malnourished physically weak Nagato.

So yes Yami no Shinobi Hashi has vast environment range jutsu, Summon size wood creations that stop bijjuu bombs with thier palms, and tallest shit ever Bhudda Statues. He still has to work hard to kill Nagato our favorite Rinnegan user.

Hashi wins mid difficulty. Who can argue that Cho Shinra Tensei can't destroy the Bhudda Statue, and I'm not talking bout the whole thing but the Bhudda itself.


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## Trojan (Jun 7, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> Hashi Wins. *There aren't any Ninja outside of his Era than can compete with him.*
> .



Who said that? 
may you give me the manga page?


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 7, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Who said that?
> may you give me the manga page?



Kabuto says it. 
I write from my IPhone sorry that's juss unnecessary work for me. 

The only ninja anywhere close to Madara and Hashi's level in the current Era is BM Naruto, BM KB, Nagato.....only 3 ninja capable of causing maps to be remade. Garra can but not on the same level as part 1.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 7, 2013)

There are not many people currently in the manga who can compete with Hashirama or not die against him. Nagato is not part of that group, partly because he's not actually in the manga any more, but mostly because he's too weak. No matter which way you look at it, Nagato has no chance against Hashirama, who was, even in base, outclassing both Madara and the Kyūbi individually. Even once Madara coated the Kyūbi with Susano'o and tried to attack, base Hashirama was still able to deflect and block. Once he entered sage mode, it was a completely one sided fight, with Hashirama simultaneously punching back hundreds of Bijū dama with Susano'o swords, destroying perfect Susano'o and taking down the Kyūbi. 

I don't believe Nagato can absorb Mokuton; maybe the chakra from the wood itself, but certainly not the material or the actual wood. Whether or not he can absorb the chakra is still irrelevant, because even if he did, he still wouldn't be able to stop tonnes of wood flying at him or killing him.

If we compare hype and literary intent, Hashirama still murders him. In the manga, Madara was used as Kabuto's trump card, not Nagato. Though he's more powerful, Madara still lost against Hashirama, and I can't imagine Kishimoto ever possibly writing Nagato actually being able to defeat Hashirama. By hype, Hashirama is pretty much a God who has never lost a battle, and whose only peer in battle is Madara (who he could still defeat without a huge level of difficulty), whereas Nagato is just some guy who never lost a battle (even though his only on-screen battle prior to the story events was against Hanzō, who, as we've seen, is not really that strong), specifically mentioned that the eight tailed Kyūbi would be difficult to capture even with Chibaku Tensei and was only strong because Madara gave him his eyes.


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## trance (Jun 7, 2013)

Haha, looks like the verdict rules. I thought Nagato could at least push him to Sage Mode but not even.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 7, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> There are not many people currently in the manga who can compete with Hashirama or not die against him. Nagato is not part of that group, partly because he's not actually in the manga any more, but mostly because he's too weak. No matter which way you look at it, Nagato has no chance against Hashirama, who was, even in base, outclassing both Madara and the Kyūbi individually. Even once Madara coated the Kyūbi with Susano'o and tried to attack, base Hashirama was still able to deflect and block. Once he entered sage mode, it was a completely one sided fight, with Hashirama simultaneously punching back hundreds of Bijū dama with Susano'o swords, destroying perfect Susano'o and taking down the Kyūbi.
> 
> I don't believe Nagato can absorb Mokuton; maybe the chakra from the wood itself, but certainly not the material or the actual wood. Whether or not he can absorb the chakra is still irrelevant, because even if he did, he still wouldn't be able to stop tonnes of wood flying at him or killing him.
> 
> If we compare hype and literary intent, Hashirama still murders him. In the manga, Madara was used as Kabuto's trump card, not Nagato. Though he's more powerful, Madara still lost against Hashirama, and I can't imagine Kishimoto ever possibly writing Nagato actually being able to defeat Hashirama. By hype, Hashirama is pretty much a God who has never lost a battle, and whose only peer in battle is Madara (who he could still defeat without a huge level of difficulty), whereas Nagato is just some guy who never lost a battle (even though his only on-screen battle prior to the story events was against Hanzō, who, as we've seen, is not really that strong), specifically mentioned that the eight tailed Kyūbi would be difficult to capture even with Chibaku Tensei and was only strong because Madara gave him his eyes.



The same weak Nagato that pawned KB and CM Naruto. Or the weak Nagato that has Bijuu level chakra and a feat of successfully using 6 bodies to invade Konoha and destroy. Something the Sand/Sound village couldn't do.

SM Hashi was battle worn at the end of his fight with Madara. So yes he's stronger but Madara pluses Kyuubi an Susanoo is just a notch under him, seeing how he fought Hashi out off Sm without the Kyuubi.

Madara sucked up Garra's sand it lost its chakra, and Petra absorbed boiling hot oil. So Nagato can absorb the chakra out of the wood. 

ST is also spammable on grand scales due to his chakras levels. Hoe is the wood suppose to touch him? SM is gonna be needed to break out of CT. It's not an easy fight for Hashi period.

Nagato is part of the Top5 strongest characters being IMO

BM Naruto
Obito R/S
Nagato
SM Kabuto
EMS Sasuke/Itachi


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 7, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> The same weak Nagato that pawned KB and CM Naruto. Or the weak Nagato that has Bijuu level chakra and a feat of successfully using 6 bodies to invade Konoha and destroy. Something the Sand/Sound village couldn't do.



The same weak Nagato who had to exploit very obvious character/plot induced stupidity on Naruto's part to bind Naruto, and the very same Killer Bee who underestimated Nagato and tried to bail Naruto out, yes. 

You realize, of course, that almost everybody who is top tier has Bijū-level chakra. It's not impressive, and having Bijū-level chakra at this point is about as unique or special as having Hashirama's cells in you. Hashirama could do all of this, and with greater ease; his destructive capability dwarfs anything Nagato has apart from his big shinra tensei and chibaku tensei. 



> SM Hashi was battle worn at the end of his fight with Madara. So yes he's stronger but Madara pluses Kyuubi an Susanoo is just a notch under him, seeing how he fought Hashi out off Sm without the Kyuubi.



Hashirama in base was holding up against the Kyūbi with Susano'o and Madara just fine. The moment he entered sage mode, he completely obliterated them with one attack. What happened after that, we don't know.



> Madara sucked up Garra's sand it lost its chakra, and Petra absorbed boiling hot oil. So Nagato can absorb the chakra out of the wood.



I never denied this. But that doesn't stop the substance from still existing; Nagato is still going to get impaled, or pummeled to death by the momentum of Hashirama's attacks. 



> ST is also spammable on grand scales due to his chakras levels.



By definition, shinra tensei is not spammable. It has a five second interval between each shot.



> Hoe is the wood suppose to touch him?



By overwhelming it. You seem to be underestimating how strong it is. Nagato's shinra tensei is impressive, yes, but Hashirama's techniques are on a completely different scale.



> SM is gonna be needed to break out of CT.



This, I won't argue with. But for chibaku tensei, Nagato has to get out of it's immediate pull range.


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## Sans (Jun 7, 2013)

Gaara's sand was mixed with Mei's ninjutsu, specifically so its physical properties could bypass Preta.

GG?


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## Krippy (Jun 7, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Once he entered sage mode, it was a completely one sided fight, with Hashirama simultaneously punching back hundreds of Bijū dama with Susano'o swords, destroying perfect Susano'o and taking down the Kyūbi.



I dont remember it being as one sided as you seem to imply, Hashirama's buddah had it's hands demolished by the bijuudama volley and it later subdued the Kyubi, Madara was left unharmed and continued to fight

or did I miss something?


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## Dr. White (Jun 7, 2013)

Krippy said:


> I dont remember it being as one sided as you seem to imply, Hashirama's buddah had it's hands demolished by the bijuudama volley and it later subdued the Kyubi, Madara was left unharmed and continued to fight
> 
> or did I miss something?



-The fact that EMS Madara needed the Kyuubi to even push Hashirama past base.
-Hashi trying to compromise the whole fight, and fighting on par w/ a top tier and strongest Bjuu.
-Shinsu taking atleast a dozen Susano Bjuudama's out, and Hashi being able to weave in and nestle the Kyuubi to sleep in SM.

In fact we don't really know what else happened to the Buudha, he atleast had a hand to grab the Kyuubi with, and it in of itself house Wood: Human/Dragon on its crown meaning even if the 1, 000 hands(which can apparantly match the DC of a Dozen SUBjuu's) he still has backup.

Kishi had Hashi and Madara tired after that as a way to make the fight more interesting, and writable. It would have been very anti-climatic for Hashi to just squash Madara with Shinsensenju.


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## Krippy (Jun 7, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> -The fact that EMS Madara needed the Kyuubi to even push Hashirama past base.



Kurama was Madara's summon, so I guess Hashi needed his own Buddah summon to defeat Kurama + PS



> -Hashi trying to compromise the whole fight, and fighting on par w/ a top tier and strongest Bjuu.



So you are saying Hashirama had no killer intent, while Madara did? what supports this?



> -Shinsu taking atleast a dozen Susano Bjuudama's out, and Hashi being able to weave in and nestle the Kyuubi to sleep in SM.



Okay, still doesn't seem very one sided to me



> In fact we don't really know what else happened to the Buudha, he atleast had a hand to grab the Kyuubi with, and it in of itself house Wood: Human/Dragon on its crown meaning even if the 1,000 hands(which can apparantly match the DC of a Dozen SUBjuu's) he still has backup.



And Madara still went on to fight Hashirama to a close loss

not very one-sided



> Kishi had Hashi and Madara tired after that as a way to make the fight more interesting, and writable. It would have been very anti-climatic for Hashi to just squash Madara with Shinsensenju.



Implying Wood Buddah could have simply one-shotted Madara anytime it wanted?


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## Jagger (Jun 7, 2013)

Hashirama vs Madara fight was nowhere one-sided at any point. Did you saw how bad was Hashirama's state after the fight?


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## Octavian (Jun 7, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Hashirama vs Madara fight was nowhere one-sided at any point. Did you saw how bad was Hashirama's state after the fight?



yeah but that's not really relevant. Nagato isn't even close in power to EMS madara with Kyuubi/ Perfect Susano'o combo.


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## Dr. White (Jun 7, 2013)

Krippy said:


> > Kurama was Madara's summon, so I guess Hashi needed his own Buddah summon to defeat Kurama + PS
> 
> 
> Shinsensenju was a part of Hashi's SM arsenal, and a Mokuton construct stemming from his original powers. Madara after years of losing to Hashirama with his Sharingan set, needed to go out and seek the strongest Bjuu in order to have a fight to the death with Hashi.
> ...


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 7, 2013)

Upon witnessing the ridiculous sight of branches, Nagato will be forced to use CST - just for survival - while Mokuton: Kajukai Kourin, accompanied by several Bunshin, proceed to incapacitate/kill him. If Chibaku Tensei happens to enter the battlefield, Hashirama has the choice to destroy or evade its onslaught, considering he possesses the respective firepower and speed to accomplish such a task.

Other than that, any summons are restrained quite easily.


Hashirama wins with low difficulty.


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## Krippy (Jun 7, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> *Shinsensenju was a part of Hashi's SM arsenal, and a Mokuton construct stemming from his original powers.* Madara after years of losing to Hashirama with his Sharingan set, needed to go out and seek the strongest Bjuu in order to have a fight to the death with Hashi.



Anything that supports this or is this just an assumption?



> Without Kyuubi, Hashirama doesn't even have a need for Shinsensenju.



Featwise, maybe. EMS Madara has only shown a fraction of his power so don't jump the gun and assume what that flashback showed was the full extent of their powers



> Hashirama knew he had to protect the village at all cost, but he was still desperately trying to talk Madara out of it, and asked him mid fight to change his ways: the only reason being because he was literally fighting his best friend from childhood.



This really doesn't prove or disprove either one had killer intent or not



> Madara on the other hand had tried to kill Hashirama  dozen times, and didn't give two shits about their friendship compared to gaining power.(not including the superiority complex he has): can you not tell their isolated feelings just from reading the fight?



Again, Hashirama stabbed Madara pretty swiftly at the end of their fight, there not much to say either one was holding back from killing the other

especially when Hashirama actually kills Madara (or so he thought)




> It wasn't a one sided fight because Madara had Kyuubi. But once Hashi pulled out SM it was over. You do realize Base Hashirama fought against EMS Madara and Full Power Kyuubi for about 90% of their fight, right? That should tell you something.



No, it wasn't 90% of their fight, because there were portions that were off paneled and will probably be shown in the future

Kyuubi was his summon so I don't see why you are speaking as if he has to use his own natural powers to beat hashirama when we really don't know alot about mokuton besides it's anti-bijuu properties



> EMS Madara sits there and dies against Shinsensenju. Without the sheer DC capabilities of Kyuubi, and his continuous Bjuudama Madara get's pummelled, even in PS.



This is assuming Madara's only EMS power is PS which obviously it's not

there's a lot about the fight we don't know yet, and even the parts we've seen prove it wasn't a stomp either way

Hashi was in the same condition as Madara at their final clash and that was not simply "plot" as you are implying, he gave him the fight of his life with his own power, Kyuubi helped, but it was Madara who did the bulk and gave hashi a run for his money


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## Jagger (Jun 7, 2013)

Octavian said:


> yeah but that's not really relevant. Nagato isn't even close in power to EMS madara with Kyuubi/ Perfect Susano'o combo.


Some users are saying Hashirama steamrolled Madara and that's not even close to the truth.


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## tanman (Jun 7, 2013)

Believe what you like, but it's clear that Madara and Hashirama have been put above every other character.
Nagato simply isn't quite there. His stamina and spam power are also well behind Madara and Hashirama. Similarly, Minato, Itachi, and even Naruto lack the versatility and scale to compare at this stage in the game.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 8, 2013)

You mean to tell me this won't destroy a field Mokuton.....
three minutes

Andreas than half of Hashi vs Madara was shown,and after Hashi took out the Kyuubi. The fight was off-paneled and they were in the same condition...except Hashi could still use clones.

Didn't SM Naruto, Garra and Ooniko Pawn EMS Madara, he had to use the rinnegan.

We can't debate Hashi and Madara can cut down mountains and own Bijuu. But it's proven with certain Tier of Skill and numbers , Onslaughts can be beat.

Hashi also died through means of war or battle...So he's beatable the mofo can be dragged off his Bhudda Statue. Or have it sucked up into  CT. Which was way bigger than the Kyuubi it was just able to break free. And Naruto already mentioned Nagato's jutsu are stronger than The Pein bodies.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jun 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Anything that supports this or is this just an assumption?



You can't be serious with this can you? Hashirama's shinsusenjuu is a jutsu that stems from his mokuton hence it being called *MOKUTON*: Shinsusenjuu. The Kyuubi was an outside variable that Madara had to go and get and control to use it. It wasn't something that stemmed from his original powers. Comparing the two is utterly ridiculous and it's clear that you're only grasping at straws.

It's really not even debatable.

Back on topic: Hashirama wrecks Nagato. In base he'd take it with mid difficulty. In SM he takes it with low difficulty.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Anything that supports this or is this just an assumption?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol, you have to be joking. Hashirama clearly says :"Senpo Mokuton: Shinsuusenju" Did you see him use a Summoning Jutsu? Clearly you didn't.

Um, before Hashirama entered Sage Mode he clearly said that he didn't want to kill Madara.

It doesn't matter what his other EMS powers are. cause if they would have helped in the final clash against Shinsuusenju its pretty damn obvious he would have used them. Meaning the only thing that could help him is PS and the Kyuubi...and they both failed, yet you think another tech Madara didn't bother to use is going to help? Not likely.

Kyuubi is the only reason Shinsuusenju ended up in the condition it ended up in during that fight. Hashirama had no problem dealing with PS's sword nor did he have a problem dealing with Bijuu Dama in base. Its the combo of these two attacks and the combo of PS and Kyuubi that pushed him to Sage Mode.


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## Krippy (Jun 8, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Um, before Hashirama entered Sage Mode he clearly said that he didn't want to kill Madara.



So did Madara want to kill him? 



> It doesn't matter what his other EMS powers are. cause if they would have helped in the final clash against Shinsuusenju its pretty damn obvious he would have used them.



Wood buddah was mangled and was restraining Kurama, he had no need to bother with it when Hashirama was closing in on him.



> Meaning the only thing that could help him is PS and the Kyuubi...and they both failed, yet you think another tech Madara didn't bother to use is going to help? Not likely.



No, that's not what it means, The rest of the fight was off-panel and Hashimara and Madara were in the same worn out condition at the end, obviously his other powers helped push SM Hashirama to his limits.



> Kyuubi is the only reason Shinsuusenju ended up in the condition it ended up in during that fight.



And who has a summoning contract with Kurama?



> Hashirama had no problem dealing with PS's sword nor did he have a problem dealing with Bijuu Dama in base.



It blew through his rashomon gates like wet tissue paper and crossed an entire ocean before detonating 

Not to mention it forced Hashirama to resort to SM.



> Its the combo of these two attacks and the combo of PS and Kyuubi that pushed him to Sage Mode.



And Madara still went on to fight SM hashirama down to base.

It wasn't a stomp by any means.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> So did Madara want to kill him?


Apparently.




> Wood buddah was mangled and was restraining Kurama, he had no need to bother with it when Hashirama was closing in on him.


If these so called EMS powers could have helped him in that fight he would have used them to stop the Buddha from ever putting Kurama to sleep and destroying his Susanoo. But he didn't so it doesnt matter what they were.



> No, that's not what it means, The rest of the fight was off-panel and Hashimara and Madara were in the same worn out condition at the end, obviously his other powers helped push SM Hashirama to his limits.


An SM Hashirama (SM has a time limit) who didn't have his Buddha and was already showing signs of exhaustion while Buddha destroyed Susanoo.



> And who has a summoning contract with Kurama?


 You clearly said that Kyuubi helped but Madara used the bulk of his own power to push Hashirama that far.  Kyuubi is the one who did the bulk when it came to Shinsuusenju vs PS Kyuubi, not Madara. Your post clearly differentiated Kyuubi from Madara's power. 



> It blew through his rashomon gates like wet tissue paper and crossed an entire ocean before detonating
> 
> Not to mention it forced Hashirama to resort to SM.


Read the manga before you reply. 
damages the organs.
Bijuu Dama combined with PS blade is what tore through Rashomon, not Bijuu Dama or the sword by itself. If the Bijuu Dama wasn't equipped with a sword Hashirama would have simply caught it and tossed it back at Madara, again.
damages the organs.




> And Madara still went on to fight SM hashirama down to base.


Again, he fought an SM Hashirama, who was exhausted, had no Buddha, *and his SM has a time limit like all Sage Modes have*. Hashirama's time in Sage Mode ran out. Not has impressive as you make it seem.



> It wasn't a stomp by any means.



Never said it was.


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## Krippy (Jun 8, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Apparently.



No proof?




> If these so called EMS powers could have helped him in that fight he would have used them to stop the Buddha from ever putting Kurama to sleep and destroying his Susanoo. But he didn't so it doesnt matter what they were.



We didn't see what happened after that event so obviously the Buddah was no longer a threat to Madara or else he wouldn't have been about to fight Hashirama down to base



> An SM Hashirama (SM has a time limit) who didn't have his Buddha and was already showing signs of exhaustion while Buddha destroyed Susanoo.



Kabuto's SM has no time limit while Naruto's does IIRC. We have no idea about Hashirama's. This statement contradicts what you said earlier about his other EMS powers making no diffrence. Obviously they did or Hashirama would have simply steamrolled Madara while in SM.




> You clearly said that Kyuubi helped but Madara used the bulk of his own power to push Hashirama that far.  Kyuubi is the one who did the bulk when it came to Shinsuusenju vs PS Kyuubi, not Madara. Your post clearly differentiated Kyuubi from Madara's power.



Kurama is Madara's summon, so it's a part of his power no matter how you look at it. If Madara was just controlling Kurama for that one instance, it would be a diffrent story

This is also assuming Buddah is the bulk of Hashirama's power in SM, when it's more or less the only thing he's shown in SM so a conclusion can't be drawn about how much power was needed to control Kurama and use PS vs. using Buddah




> Read the manga before you reply.
> damages the organs.
> Bijuu Dama combined with PS blade is what tore through Rashomon, not Bijuu Dama or the sword by itself. If the Bijuu Dama wasn't equipped with a sword Hashirama would have simply caught it and tossed it back at Madara, again.
> damages the organs.



.....This doesn't disprove anything I said 



> Again, he fought an SM Hashirama, who was exhausted, had no Buddha, *and his SM has a time limit like all Sage Modes have*. Hashirama's time in Sage Mode ran out. Not has impressive as you make it seem.



I already covered the part about Sage mode. Show scans of Hashirama's overwhelming exhaust and his SM running out against a fresh Madara if that's what you're implying.



> Never said it was.



The person I originally quote said it was.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> No proof?


Obvious if you read the manga.





> We didn't see what happened after that event so obviously the Buddah was no longer a threat to Madara or else he wouldn't have been about to fight Hashirama down to base


What are you talking about? I'm talking about the Buddha vs PS Kyuubi confrontation, not what happened after and not what happened before.




> Kabuto's SM has no time limit while Naruto's does IIRC. We have no idea about Hashirama's.* This statement contradicts what you said earlier about his other EMS powers making no diffrence. Obviously they did or Hashirama would have simply steamrolled Madara while in SM.*



All Sage Modes have time limits, again, obvious if you read the manga. Kabuto's doesn't have one because he can continuously gather natural energy while he is moving. Naruto and Hashirama can't.

No they don't make a difference, Why would Hashirama steamroll Madara when he is exhausted and lost his Buddha statue? 





> Kurama is Madara's summon, so it's a part of his power no matter how you look at it. If Madara was just controlling Kurama for that one instance, it would be a diffrent story


Never said it wasn't his power. YOU were the one who differentiated Kurama from Madara's power so I have no idea why you are accusing me of doing so.



> *This is also assuming Buddah is the bulk of Hashirama's power in SM,* when it's more or less the only thing he's shown in SM so a conclusion can't be drawn about how much power was needed to control Kurama and use PS vs. using Buddah


Is it just me, or do you like to label obvious facts as assumptions? The fact that out of all the SM techs Hashirama brought out, Buddha was called, is proof that its his strongest tech in Sage Mode, thus the bulk of his power.




> .....This doesn't disprove anything I said


-I said that Bijuu Dama nor PS blade were trouble for Hashirama in Base.
-You said that it broke through Rashomon (It is referring to one of them as it is singular)
-Except neither of them broke through. Only the combo of them did.

So either you can't keep track of what you yourself said or your previous reply to my post was useless, as a later stated that the Bijuu Dama combined with the Blade is what pushed him to Sage Mode.




> I already covered the part about Sage mode. Show scans of Hashirama's *overwhelming *exhaust and his SM running out against a fresh Madara if that's what you're implying.


Putting words in my mouth? Where did I say that he was *overwhelmingly *exhausted.

Hashirama was clearly exhausted here. Hence the SFX: Pant Pant.
Edo Itachi is not fast enough to evade Susano'o

Not to mention its manga fact that if you don't have a way to constantly collect Nature Energy while in motion, your SM will run out, hence a time limit. Asking for scans of something that has been established multiple times in the manga is completely idiotic.


> The person I originally quote said it was.


I'm not the guy you originally quoted obviously.


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## Krippy (Jun 8, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Obvious if you read the manga.



Concession accepted 




> What are you talking about? I'm talking about the Buddha vs PS Kyuubi confrontation, not what happened after and not what happened before.



I know, PS + Kurama was enough to keep the Buddah busy, and Madara went on to fight Hashirama.




> All Sage Modes have time limits, again, obvious if you read the manga. Kabuto's doesn't have one because he can continuously gather natural energy while he is moving. Naruto and Hashirama can't.



You just contradicted yourself in the same sentence  

Show proof that Hashirama can't gather natural energy while moving please or that his Sage mode isn't passive like Juugo and Kabuto.




> No they don't make a difference, Why would Hashirama steamroll Madara when he is exhausted and lost his Buddha statue?



Why are you putting so much emphasis on his Buddah when he more mokuton jutsu in his arsenal? Madara's fought against SM Hashirama and survived till he ran out of SM. Period.



> Never said it wasn't his power. YOU were the one who differentiated Kurama from Madara's power so I have no idea why you are accusing me of doing so.



Kurama + PS is Madara's power and Buddah is Hashi's power. End of story.



> Is it just me, or do you like to label obvious facts as assumptions? The fact that out of all the SM techs Hashirama brought out, Buddha was called, is proof that its his strongest tech in Sage Mode, thus the bulk of his power.



It's just you. You're trying to make it seem like Hashi was exhausted from using Wood buddah when Madara controlling Kurama and PS wasn't despite the obvious difference in chakra between the two.



> -I said that Bijuu Dama nor PS blade were trouble for Hashirama in Base.
> -You said that it broke through Rashomon (It is referring to one of them as it is singular)
> -Except neither of them broke through. Only the combo of them did.
> 
> So either you can't keep track of what you yourself said or your previous reply to my post was useless, as a later stated that the Bijuu Dama combined with the Blade is what pushed him to Sage Mode



You obviously misunderstood, because it's that's what I meant 





> Putting words in my mouth? Where did I say that he was *overwhelmingly *exhausted.
> 
> Hashirama was clearly exhausted here. Hence the SFX: Pant Pant.
> Rule #4: Only those who have mastered Byakugo, the mitotic regeneration ninjutsu...are allowed to break all three rules!



not exhausted enough to make a difference obviously, Sasuke was panting his guts out halfway through his fight with Danzo and he still outlasted Izanagi and went on to fight Kakashi

unless you think MS Sasuke > Hashi in stamina 



> Not to mention its manga fact that if you don't have a way to constantly collect Nature Energy while in motion, your SM will run out, hence a time limit. Asking for scans of something that has been established multiple times in the manga is completely idiotic.



So how do you know Hashi can't collect Natural energy passively?

what part of my post was established many times in the manga? 



> I'm not the guy you originally quoted obviously.


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## αce (Jun 8, 2013)

You don't fire a bijuu dama with a Susano-o sword in the middle and launch it at someone if you aren't aiming to kill them. Use your brain. Holy shit.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Concession accepted


So you fire Bijuu Damas mixed with PS blades and you aren't trying to kill someone? Are you an idiot? Use your damn head.




> ]I know, PS +Kurama was enough to keep the Buddah busy, and Madara went on to fight Hashirama.


Uh, no. The Buddha and PS Kyuubi clashed. Shinsuusenju lost all its arms but it raped Madara's Susanoo in the process. Then it snatched up Kyuubi, Wood God put it to sleep and then it became Hashirama vs Madara. 





> You just contradicted yourself in the same sentence
> 
> Show proof that Hashirama can't gather natural energy while moving please or that his Sage mode isn't passive like Juugo and Kabuto.


No I didn't. All Sage Modes have time limits, then I went on to give an example of an exception to this rule.

Lmao, no. Fukasaku already said its impossible to gain Nature Energy while your moving. Again, read the damn manga. Jugo and Kabuto don't have passive Sage Modes, they can get Nature Energy while their moving, an ability Hashirama hasn't displayed so he doesn't have it.
his guts out 
his guts out  




> Why are you putting so much emphasis on his Buddah when he more mokuton jutsu in his arsenal? Madara's fought against SM Hashirama and survived till he ran out of SM. Period.



Either way, its not as big as a deal as you are making it seem.



> Kurama + PS is Madara's power and Buddah is Hashi's power. End of story.


God, are you fucking retarded or something? *I *NEVER SAID IT WASN'T. *YOU *are the one who said it wasn't. Read your own damn post before you type shit like this.

The fact Madara needed to go find Kurama just to take on Hashirama says something...lol.



> It's just you. You're trying to make it seem like Hashi was exhausted from using Wood buddah when Madara controlling Kurama and PS wasn't despite the obvious difference in chakra between the two.


He was exhausted from the whole fight, I already showed scans of him panting, meaning he was exhausted so any other reply that disagrees on this point will be disregarded as fanfiction.




> You obviously misunderstood, because it's that's what I meant


Next time word your post right so there is no room for anyone to misunderstand.





> not exhausted enough to make a difference obviously, Sasuke was panting his guts out halfway through his fight with Danzo and he still outlasted Izanagi and went on to fight Kakashi
> 
> unless you think MS Sasuke > Hashi in stamina



Again, doesn't really make a difference so I'm not gonna waste my time arguing with you over something so trivial.




> So how do you know Hashi can't collect Natural energy passively?
> 
> what part of my post was established many times in the manga?


How the hell do you know he can when it hasn't been said or hinted he can. Until its shown or at least hinted he can, anything you say implying he can is pure nonsense.


I'm done wasting my time with you.


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## bleakwinter (Jun 8, 2013)

I believe Hashirama would extinguish the six paths of pain with little difficulty. Bringer of Darkness genjutsu is an excellent counter to Pain's ability, as it both exploits his self-admitted vulnerability to genjutsu, as well as disrupts the shared visions. This leaves all six bodies vulnerable to being ensnared and destroyed. Nagato himself, on the other hand, would be able to sense Hashirama's location, making bringer of darkness worthless. Additionally, I would like to know what Hashirama has in order counter to Chibaku Tensei. Additionally, what is Hashirama's counter to simply beeing reeled in with Bansho Tenin and having his soul removed with Human path? It's an easy route to claim that Hashirama wins by virtue of him being a different tier, but this does little when he has no counters to several of the techniques that Nagao possess.

*Scenario 1: Hashirama wins

Scenario 2 (Nagato wins - High Difficulty)*


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## Bonly (Jun 8, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Additionally, what is Hashirama's counter to simply beeing reeled in with Bansho Tenin and having his soul removed with Human path?



When Kakashi was being BT'd he was able to go into his pocket, get a chain and then threw it on to a broken piece of a building. Hashi should be able to make a Mokuton to catch himself. Hashi was also able to make five Moku Bunshin's while keeping the same handsign he used when he first started to put up a barrier against the Juubi. Hashi could then have his clones district Nagato so he could stop his attack. So Hashi should be able to stop this combo from finishing him off.


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## Sans (Jun 8, 2013)

Lol you got your rep back.


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## Jagger (Jun 8, 2013)

Madara pushed Hashirama into SM and use his strongest technique and even then, he resorted to use a trick instead of just beating Madara through brute force, it's nowhere one-sided.


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## Hamaru (Jun 9, 2013)

Hashirama was dealing with at least 12 fused mountain cutting/busting attacks + an ultimate defense. Nagato doesn't pack the power needed to win.


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## Krippy (Jun 9, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> So you fire Bijuu Damas mixed with PS blades and you aren't trying to kill someone? Are you an idiot? Use your damn head.



So they both had killer intent, good to know. 



> Uh, no. The Buddha and PS Kyuubi clashed. Shinsuusenju lost all its arms but it raped Madara's Susanoo in the process. Then it snatched up Kyuubi, Wood God put it to sleep and then it became Hashirama vs Madara.



WTF? how does this contradict what I just said? now you are just wasting my time.




> No I didn't. All Sage Modes have time limits, then I went on to give an example of an exception to this rule.
> 
> Lmao, no. Fukasaku already said its impossible to gain Nature Energy while your moving. Again, read the damn manga. Jugo and Kabuto don't have passive Sage Modes, they can get Nature Energy while their moving, an ability Hashirama hasn't displayed so he doesn't have it.
> Link removed
> Link removed



That's exact what a passive sage mode is, it's indefinite because the user collect natural energy _passively_. I'm still waiting for proof that Hashirama's sage mode is akin to Naruto's and not kabuto's. "hasn't displayed it?" he's had one showing with it and I don't see anything that steers a conclusion like this.




> Either way, its not as big as a deal as you are making it seem.



You're the one making a big deal out of this 




> God, are you fucking retarded or something? *I *NEVER SAID IT WASN'T. *YOU *are the one who said it wasn't. Read your own damn post before you type shit like this.
> 
> The fact Madara needed to go find Kurama just to take on Hashirama says something...lol.



yah, keep telling yourself that





> He was exhausted from the whole fight, I already showed scans of him panting, meaning he was exhausted so any other reply that disagrees on this point will be disregarded as fanfiction.



weak evidence, weak argument. Deal with it.




> Again, doesn't really make a difference so I'm not gonna waste my time arguing with you over something so trivial.



Concession accepted. 



> How the hell do you know he can when it hasn't been said or hinted he can. Until its shown or at least hinted he can, anything you say implying he can is pure nonsense



The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. You assume he has a time limit to his sage mode, which is baseless, and I assume he had none because there's nothing to indicate otherwise.

It's subjective at this point.



> I'm done wasting my time with you.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2013)

Given Hashirama uses Mokuton chakra to manipulate actual wood, he isn't stopped by the Preta Path. 

Though that only means Nagato would be relying on summons and the Demon Path powers to be destroying whatever Mokuton comes his way. 
Whether we want to believe it or not, a summon which multiplies each time its hit will be a problem. If Hashirama binds it, then Nagato can simply summon it to another location where it will still continue to be a problem. 

Nagato has full knowledge, and Hashirama doesn't. So it is arguable that Hashirama doesn't know that a single touch from Nagato could end his life (Human/Hell Realms). Though you can also say this is somewhat negated given how Mokuton is often used. It is still however, something worth noting. 

Now, base mode Hashirama can stall and keep a distance. That's really all he'll be doing against Nagato. He also has to make more use of his defensive Mokuton given the nature of the Demon Realm powers (alongside the God Realm powers which can be used when needed). Both of which would be significantly stronger than they were when Pain displayed them. 

Sage Mode ups things up for Hashirama. Though as we've seen with three Sages already, it doesn't mean you'll stomp a high tier foe. Sage Mode will provide a lot of physical benefits, however against a foe who can use something like Shinra Tensei and even instant kill moves like those from the Human and Hell Paths... Taijutsu won't be a good idea. Especially when there will be a lot of summons in the picture. 

Gedo Mazo itself presents a threat. So focusing on a lot of summons, including Gedo Mazo whilst fighting Nagato wouldn't even be easy for Sage Hashirama. So I guess that's where the Budda Statue comes in. 
Though I'm unsure how it'd help to be punching the dog summon continuously.

Its quite tough to call considering the particular workings of both these guys' arsenal. 

If you do want to look at portrayal, Nagato (crippled) was Kabuto's second strongest Edo Tensei. Only topped by Madara Uchiha. Not the Madara Uchiha that lost to Hashirama; a Madara Uchiha who possesses his own power, Hashirama's power and even Nagato's ocular powers. 
This composite, dare I say, is even stronger than Hashirama. So I wouldn't use Edo Madara being a trump card to support the idea that Hashirama stomps this thread. That's because there is a very clear distinction between the Madara that Kabuto banked on, and the one Hashirama fought.

Of course, at the moment I do lean towards Nagato because I have gotten no sufficient reason to believe that any Mokuton (even the Budda) would beat Chibaku Tensei. To put it simply, I doubt something made from the same raw materials (pieces of the earth, like trees) that Chibaku Tensei would do anything to it, but help speed up the process.

That's if we talk Nagato vs Hashirama.

---

Pain is a special case. Though Pain is weaker than Nagato, Pain Rikudou can endure more damage than Nagato due to being comprised of dead bodies. So similar to the above, the powers do help Pain resist. Especially seeing as Pain's entire strategy relies keeping together. A strategy that will be hard to break considering the amount of summons that Pain can spawn in the field, including Gedo Mazo. The large number of Rinnegan eyes mean that Pain would be able to see incoming attacks more effectively than Nagato. 

Now, Hashirama can still cause a lot of problems. Especially since Mokuton seems to be tailored to fight just about any foe (except the actual Juubi), so Pain would still have to count on not making any mess ups. Though given the knowledge, so long as Naraka is fine, Pain is fine too. 

The main problem I find with Hashirama winning in the end (with all that we know) is that as I said before, I don't see Mokuton beating CT. 

Remember, the attacks that did CT in were 'energy' attacks. So unless you've got something like PS slashes, Enton: Kagutsuchi, FRS, Bijuu-Dama or attacks of that scale, which _*don't*_ use the same things CT uses to build itself... CT would always win. 
==

Of course, my conclusions aren't definitive (they're limited to what we have to work with). It can change depending on what Hashirama shows in the manga in the coming weeks; the same Hashirama that Madara (who can be seen as a mobile Nagato with EMS and Mokuton) seems to think is a worthy challenge.


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## Luftwaffles (Jun 9, 2013)

Does Nagato have a counter to Bringer of Darkness?


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## Ashi (Jun 9, 2013)

Shinsuusenju then roflstomp that simple


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## joshhookway (Jun 9, 2013)

Hashirama uses buddha to easily win


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Given Hashirama uses Mokuton chakra to manipulate actual wood, he isn't stopped by the Preta Path.
> 
> Though that only means Nagato would be relying on summons and the Demon Path powers to be destroying whatever Mokuton comes his way.
> Whether we want to believe it or not, a summon which multiplies each time its hit will be a problem. If Hashirama binds it, then Nagato can simply summon it to another location where it will still continue to be a problem.
> ...



Sheesh finally somebody with some decent insight on the actuall firepower of Nagato. 
I disagree with you on a few point however.

1. Being Hashi's Wood Jutsu. The dude can literally sprout a tree an bind you with it. I believe Preta path will cause it to he brittle and weak.

2. CT, I believe Hashi's wood jutsu can destroy CT from the inside out. However I believe SM would be needed plus his Flower World Jutsu. That surely would destroy a soild rock sphere.

I pretty much agree with all the other point you've made. At the end of the day Nagato with full knowledge can give Hashi a fight for his money because ST simply owns shyt. 

How can Ngato counter Bringer of Darkness......Chou Shinra Tensei!


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 10, 2013)

Hashi's megazord can literally play bowling with ct as the ball and nagato's body as the pin 


I mean a 8 tailed kyubi beat ct, granted it was tendo but look at the sheer size and power difference between Buddha and the kyubi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 10, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> Sheesh finally somebody with some decent insight on the actuall firepower of Nagato.
> I disagree with you on a few point however.
> 
> 1. Being Hashi's Wood Jutsu. The dude can literally sprout a tree an bind you with it. I believe Preta path will cause it to he brittle and weak.
> ...



Thanks. 

1. Actually, that's an interesting take on it. The Preta Path's effect on Mokuton actually makes a huge difference. I assumed that the Mokuton chakra is used to accelerate the growth of actual tree roots, thus when absorbed the tree stops being mobile. Though, if the effect the Mokuton chakra had on the Mokuton would be negated altogether... Never thought of that, actually. 

2. Sort of like how Hachibi Naruto broke out of CT? If so, then I can agree with that.

About the Genjutsu, it being a Genjutsu may suggest a clue as to how Nagato would counter it. We know Nagato mastered the mechanisms of chakra and all the essential/mainstream (depending on your translation) Ninjutsu. Arguably, the 'release' jutsu commonly used against Genjutsu is among those mastered jutsu; to add perspective sensing was among them.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 10, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Hashi's megazord can literally play bowling with ct as the ball and nagato's body as the pin
> 
> 
> I mean a 8 tailed kyubi beat ct, granted it was tendo but look at the sheer size and power difference between Buddha and the kyubi.



What's your point? The same Kyuubi used Bijjudama Susanoo swords and destroyed all those arms.

The same Nagato that controlled 6 six bodies invade Konoha wrecked it with 1 casualty on his side. Turned the village to ground zero, defeated SM naruto plus his frog subordinates, and captured a 8tails Kyuubi......Most of what I mentioned is fears from 1 pein body. not Nagato who is stronger.

Are you enlightened to Nagato's strength now? He has the fire power to combat the wood jutsu.


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## Jagger (Jun 10, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> What's your point? The same Kyuubi used Bijjudama Susanoo swords and destroyed all those arms.
> 
> The same Nagato that controlled 6 six bodies invade Konoha wrecked it with 1 casualty on his side. Turned the village to ground zero, defeated SM naruto plus his frog subordinates, and captured a 8tails Kyuubi......Most of what I mentioned is fears from 1 pein body. not Nagato who is stronger.
> 
> Are you enlightened to Nagato's strength now? He has the fire power to combat the wood jutsu.


The problem is that only one attack from Nagato is capable of matching the same attack Madara + Kyuubi combo did and the latter can casually do it. That's the difference between both.

A village without knowledge of their abilities and most of skilled ninjas were gone. I'm not going to say what Pain did is unimpressive, because I fanboy him for that. But you have to see both sides have advantages over the other one.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jun 10, 2013)

Lazers said:


> Location: VotE
> 
> Intel: Full for Nagato, moderate for Hashirama
> 
> ...



Six paths of pain can beat hashirama, but I think Nagato by himself will not be able to though...

First scenario: Six paths of pain are all high speed, high powered beasts who fight using overwhemling numbers and force in a team formation that can allow then to hela, revive, counter all jutsu and likely beat anyone...

ShInre tensai easily defeats forest creation, huge pollen gas flower and even wood dragon... as well as a small mass of wood clones...

Demon realms abilites is pureley offensive nightmares for hashirama's clones becuase it can produce many appendages and extra weapons too...

Animal realms summon easily keep the bushins busy...

Hell realms stays back to revive any beaten realms...

Human realm is taking souls and stealing info to locate the real body...

And preta realm is absorbing wood jutsu left and right making them ineffective...

And since chibaku tensai can defeat all mokuton clones and SM buddha summon... while human realm locates the real body...
Six paths of pain wins...

Second scenario: Nagato vs hashirama... Without the 5 extra bodies and shared vision vs hashirama and his many clones... even using chikabu tensai to defeat the clones, hashirama still has the advantage and likely wins by overwhelming nagato's defenses...

Unless nagato knows how to use Kage bushin no jutsu... Nagato is not going to win IMO... Hashirama wins the second scenario...


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 10, 2013)

Jagger said:


> The problem is that only one attack from Nagato is capable of matching the same attack Madara + Kyuubi combo did and the latter can casually do it. That's the difference between both.
> 
> A village without knowledge of their abilities and most of skilled ninjas were gone. I'm not going to say what Pain did is unimpressive, because I fanboy him for that. But you have to see both sides have advantages over the other one.



I just want people to admit Nagato can hold his own and not get steamed rolled. Because he has the juice needed not tO get dwarf by giant Mokuton jutsu.

With multiple summons
Lasers an Missle that destroyed Konoha's infrastructure.
Shinra Tensei
Gedo Mazu

A good debater can argue a win scenario for Nagato.


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## Jagger (Jun 10, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> I just want people to admit Nagato can hold his own and not get steamed rolled. Because he has the juice needed not tO get dwarf by giant Mokuton jutsu.
> 
> With multiple summons
> Lasers an Missle that destroyed Konoha's infrastructure.
> ...


I never said Nagato gets horribly stomped. Depends, is SM included or not?


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## Joakim3 (Jun 10, 2013)

If it's base Hashirama he beats Nagato with mid-possibly hard difficulty at worst

....SM Hashirama stomps him worse then Edo Madara or RinneObito w/ _Pein Rikudo_ would, and they would quite literally steamroll Nagato


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