# Strongest Kage from each generation



## ARGUS (Dec 14, 2013)

What are the overall strongest kages in each generation,, this is my opinion
1st Generation: Hashirama Senju  
2nd Generation: Tobirama Senju
3rd Generation: Third Raikage
4th Generation: Minato Namikaze 
5th Generation: Gaara 

and then state the top 5 kage overall


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## Veracity (Dec 14, 2013)

Hashirama
Tobirama
Onnoki or Sandaime Raikage
Minato
 Tsunade(overall ability)

The list is kinda one sided because we don't much about the Kages other then specifically the Hokages.

Overall;
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Muu or Sandaime Raikage
Tsunade or Onnoki


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## ARGUS (Dec 14, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Hashirama
> Tobirama
> Muu or Sandaime Raikage
> Minato
> ...



Muu is from the second generation,, apart from that i dnt mind ur list,,,, 
except that i would put trollkage at 5th overall


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Dec 14, 2013)

Every Hokage except Tsunade. 5th Gen is Gaara/Ohnoki. Counting Ohnoki as 5th gen since he's still a Kage and still top tier.

Inb4 Hiruzen haters. He was canonically stated to be the strongest, twice. #DealWithIt






And his summon is Oozaru Vegeta


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 14, 2013)

1)Hashimra
2)Tobirama
3?Third Raikage or Onoki
4)Minato
5)Gaara - Onoki is technically  the third Tsuchikage and Ei is techincally the 4th Raikage
6)Danzo - He's the only one so he wins by default


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## Bonly (Dec 14, 2013)

Hashi
Muu/Tobi
Onoki
Minato
Gaara/Tsunade


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## Jagger (Dec 14, 2013)

Kickflip Uzumaki said:


> Every Hokage except Tsunade. 5th Gen is Gaara/Ohnoki. Counting Ohnoki as 5th gen since he's still a Kage and still top tier.
> 
> Inb4 Hiruzen haters. He was canonically stated to be the strongest, twice. #DealWithIt
> 
> ...


Just like Itachi was said to be invincible? Or Pain was stated by Konan to be undefeatable? 

Character statements are not always reliable or true, at all.


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## Coppur (Dec 14, 2013)

Generation 1: Hashirama Jimi Hendrix
 :ignoramus 
Generation 2: Tobirama
Generation 3: Onoki
Generation 4: Minato
Generation 5: Tsunade

In order of the most powerful of these Kages:

Jimi
Minato
Tobirama
Onoki
Tsunade


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 14, 2013)

*Generation 1:* _Hashirama_
*Generation 2:* _Tobirama_
*Generation 3:* _Onoki_
*Generation 4: *_Minato_
*Generation 5:* _Gaara_


*From strongest to weakest:*
_Hashirama_
_Minato_
_Tobirama _
_Onoki/Gaara_ (I'm not quite sure about Gaara's current ranking at the moment.)


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## Sadgoob (Dec 14, 2013)

Shodai Hashirama
Nidaime Tobirama
Sandaime Hiruzen
Yondaime Minato
Godaime Tsunade
Rokudaime Danzō


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## Ersa (Dec 14, 2013)

Hashirama
Tobirama
Onoki
Minato
Tsunade


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## Sadgoob (Dec 14, 2013)

Everybody in this thread clearly uderestimates the overwhelming power of cloned shuriken.​


Jagger said:


> Just like Itachi was said to be invincible? Or Pain was stated by Konan to be undefeatable? Character statements are not always reliable or true, at all.



Itachi and Pain at 100% ARE invincible. Canon. ​


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## Ersa (Dec 14, 2013)

They do.


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## ARGUS (Dec 14, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Everybody in this thread clearly uderestimates the overwhelming power of cloned shuriken.​
> Ur right... Sage of the six paths defeated ten tails by that jutsu


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## Trojan (Dec 14, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> *Generation 1:* _Hashirama_
> *Generation 2:* _Tobirama_
> *Generation 3:* _Onoki_
> *Generation 4: *_Minato_
> ...



Did I read that right? 
So you think Gaara and Onoki are stronger than those above them? o_O


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## Sadgoob (Dec 14, 2013)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Ur right... Sage of the six paths defeated ten tails by that jutsu



He more likely used the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror.


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## Gibbs (Dec 14, 2013)

No love for Yagura?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 14, 2013)

Elia said:


> Did I read that right?
> So you think Gaara and Onoki are stronger than those above them? o_O



Oh shit, my bad.

Fix'd


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## Turrin (Dec 15, 2013)

Shodai - While we know little about the Shodai Kages, it seems barring a pretty random twist, that Hashirama is almost certainly the strongest.

Nindaime - While we don't know much about Nindaime Kazekage, but both are featured so little in the manga and possess no substantial hype besides being Kages. Also in Nindaime Raikage's case if he was the strongest you'd think when paired w/ Tobirama Gin & Kin would not have given those two such trouble during the treaty signing; not matter what kind of back up they had. Not selling Gin & Kin short here as I think they are very powerful, but if Nindaime Raikage was the strongest than he'd be even stronger than Tobirama, so Tobirama + a Ninja of an even higher level I can't really see loosing. Though granted I suppose it's possible that in an upset one of them could emerge as the strongest, but it's highly unlikely at this point. That brings us down to Mu vs Mizukage vs Tobirama, and this becomes a difficult question to answer. 

I am not willing to grant Tobirama the title of strongest based purely on what he's displayed so far. Mizukage and Tobirama seem relatively even imo. Tobirama's FTG offers him a very hax ability to supplement his defense and offense, but Clam Genjutsu is equally hax imo. Tobirama's KB + Tandem Explosive tags seems about as good as Joki Boi to me. Than Tobirama has his Suitons, which I think Mizukage is superior in this regard given his Suika no Jutsu is so versatile and grants him such a potent defense. Tobirama has Sensing, but Mizukage sensing Jamming thanx to the Clam, which one is better Idk. Than Tobirama also has Edo Tensei, but as things stand we don't know how good his Tensei were or how many he could summon; it's much like the fact that Mizukage says he can use In'ton (or Genjutsu), but we've only seen the Clam's Genjutsu, so they both have Jutsu we haven't seen the potential of. With that said I hold even greatly gimped Edo Tensei in higher regard than random Mizukage Genjutsu, but at the same time Edo Tensei requires prep and we don't know if Mizukage always has that prep, so there is that to consider as well. Anyway I give Tobirama a slight edge over Mizukage, but it's certainly close enough where I could see Mizukage being better.

However when it comes to comparing Mu to Tobirama, to me Mu has the decisive edge. Mu's sensing is high order like Tobirama's. Mu's Invis Jutsu is certainly as hax as Tobirama's FTG. But Dust Realse > Tandem Explosive Tags + KB (or almost any possible gimped Tensei as far as i'm concerned). Also 3 elements, Fire, Wind, and Earth > Suiton, as far as i'm concerned as well. As for other abilities Mu also has flight and splitting to make up any other difference in ability, and Mu has had less panel time than Tobirama to show off, and Mu has better hype w/ all the Kekkai Touta hype.

So based on hype, feats, and panel time I give Mu the title of strongest Nindaime Kage, but I could easily see Tobirama or Mizukage taking the title if they get more feats or hype.

Sandaime - Well Hiruzen by hype is suppose to be the strongest, but he hasn't even begun to live up to that. The two that have managed to live up to that a bit are Sandaime Raikage and Onoki, but to me Onoki given his feats in the war, Kekkai Touta hype, and just overall portrayal is by far the standout among the Sandaime Kages. I suppose it's also possible that Sandaime Mizukage could be the strongest, but he's got no feats, no screen time, and no hype, so that is highly unlikely

Yondaime - Minato is by far the strongest Yondaime Kage, enough said

Godaime - Gaara I think takes it at this moment, but I could easily see Tsunade passing him up again depending on what else she shows in the war.


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## SuperSaqer (Dec 15, 2013)

Generation 1: Hashirama
Generation 2: Tobirama
Generation 3: Hiruzen
Generation 4: Minato
Generation 5: Tsunade


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## Healing Master (Dec 15, 2013)

1st Generation: Hashirama Senju 
2nd Generation: Tobirama Senju
3rd Generation: Third Raikage/Onoki
4th Generation: Minato Namikaze 
5th Generation: Tsunade


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Dec 15, 2013)

Hashirama
Tobirama
Onoki
Minato
Gaara/Tsunade


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2013)

I'll give this a shot. 

First of all, this is only *MY OPINION*. So, if you don't agree please, don't start 
spamming nonsense toward me! 

Second of all. What I see is kishi always state the 3rd generation from each village is the strongest.
Examples:

Hiruzen was stated in the manga and the databook that he is stronger than the Senju bros & base Minato.
the 3rd kazekage was stated by the elders of his village to be the strongest Kazekage
the 3rd Raikage was stated to be the strongest Raikage as well.

Now, Onoki was stated by Tsunade that he's the only one in the SA that can defeat Mu. His feats
as well prove that he's stronger than him, but his backs issues were in his way. 

Finally, we now 4 out of 5 Mizukages, none of those we know stated to be the strongest, guess
who we do not know? Yeah, he is the 3rd Mizukage as well. 

That's from the story perspective. Now, there are those feats worshipers, that do not agree with
the statements in the manga and only cares about feats (except if the statements with them eventually). Therefore, I guess I'll relay mostly on feats and statements. 

*****
Remainder, this is ONLY *MY OPINION,*
*****
*1st Generation: *

We do not know any thing about the kages from any village except Hashirama. Therefore, there
is nothing to say here. Even his hype show that by saying that he was the strongest shinobi, thus we know he was the strongest during his area. 
*
2nd Generation: *

This absolutely the closest kage's level to each other. If they were trying to make the villages
equally powerful, then this is the area. Unfortunately, we do not know about the 2nd Kazekage,
and the the 2nd Raikage. They also have no hype, so it cannot be helped. What's left is Mu, Tobirama, and the 2nd Mizukage. We know that the Mizukage and Mu are equally powerful and they did kill each other, so we can't say someone is stronger than the others. Tobirama has more panel time than them and showed more jutsus, but his jutsus can be countered by them as well. I would say  those kages are on the same level, they can kill each other or someone
might end up winning by perhaps some of the events during their battles. 
*
3rd Generation: *

The Generation that I think kishi wants to present them as the strongest Generation out of old
kages (No Gaara, or Naruto in the future...etc). As I stated at the beginning each one of those 
was stated to be the strongest among his village's kages. Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest as well, so he should be the superior one. However, since I am not basing this purely on hype, Hiruzen as well is not the one who showed the most impressive feats. Although his
feats are still better than the 3rd Kazekage and 3rd Mizukage who we don't even know, but that's not enough. 

That leave us with 3rd Raikage and Onoki. We only know 3 or 4 jutsus from the 3rd Raikage, but
what is impressive is his feats of fighting 10,000 ninja for 3 complete days! Not only that but he
also drew with the 8tails! His body is rather strong that nothing can hurt him, but himself. 

Onoki has by far the most feats especially in his fight against madara, but we have to remember
that Tsunade was their to full them with chakra every time, it would not have been like that without her. With that being said Onoki can still use jinton and change the weight effectually. 

so, I choose Onoki for this one. 

*4th Generation*:

In this generation we have only 4 kages. We know that A & B fought Minato, and A came up
with the conclusion that no an could surpass Minato. So this is a given one. Other than that
we have the 4th kazekage, a lot of people think he is fodder, but I don't see that. He did solo the
1tails, who is not that bad, and his Gold Dust is really good, and it was the weak point against
the Mizukage, but he lost rather easily against his son. We also, have Yagura, who he was the
host of the 3tails, and we saw some of his power in this war. However, their feats does not come even close to Minato. Minato did defeat obito, and sealed Kurama who is stronger than all the Bijuu combined, not to mention that he stopped the 3rd war. Let's us not even talk about his BM. 

So, Minato is the strongest in the generation. 

*5th Generation*: 

The competition getting smaller since we have only 3 kages here. First, let's start with Tsunade
it was stated by shikaku that Tsunade is the strongest woman in the world, that put her above
Mei automatically. I also believe that she is on the same level as her teammates unlike what
a lot of people think. Her Taijutsu and her summon are really strong! 

Gaara, while he is indeed strong, but I hardly see him winning against Mei's massive water jutsus! And Tsunade can still defeat him with her Katsuyu. 

in short, I think Tsunade is the strongest here. 

The conclusion for this part, the strongest from each Generation are:
Hashirama, equal, Onoki, Minato, and Tsunade. 

*****
Reminder: this is only *MY OPINION*. 
*****

The strongest *overall*. 

1- Minato. 

*Spoiler*: __ 




Now, I know, I know, people would say Hashirama is the strongest, and I'm fanboy blah blah blah. 

Why did I choose Minato for the first place? 
I think he is overall the strongest because if we look at what they did and their hype..etc 
Has Minato ever lost a fight? No, he has not. On the other hand Hashirama lost against madara, obito (when he blew him up), Hiruzen (yes he was not at his full power, but so was Hiruzen), and he lost in the First World War. So, Minato is incredibly hard for any one to hit him,
it needed someone as powerful as the Sage himself to land a hit on him! 

If we saw their accomplishment in this War, what Minato did exceeds Hashi by FAR, like saving
the SA TWICE. I think this feats fulfilled his hype as the Savior and the child of Prophecy as he did indeed save the World and his village each of them at least TWICE. Such hype of being a Savior is linked directly to the MC & the Sage. He also the ONLY shinobi with the order "Flee on sight" as he bring victory to konoha. 

Hashi has the hype of being the strongest in his area, but Minato is not from his area anyway! 
Thus, those statements do not include him.

Also, Minato has always been Naruto's benchmark since the very beginning of the story, why
did Kishi choose Minato? Now, Hashi's fanboys will say, no Hashi is Naruto's benchmark. Really? 

IIRC throw out the story

Naruto & Minato: 

1- in the first chapter, the Hokage that Naruto mentioned was Minato. 
2- When Naruto learned his summon jutsu, he was compared to Minato.
3- When he learned the Rasengan he was compared to Minato.
4- When Tsunade talked to Jman at the par she compared Naruto to Minato. 
5- When Naruto left the village he pointed out Minato. 

6- When Naruto learned FRS he was compared to Minato. 
7- Before Jman goes to fight Pain, the compared Naruto to  his parents.
8- When Naruto learned SM he was compared to Minato. 
9- When he used his speed against Kisame he was compared to Minato. 
10- When he was against the Raikgae he was compared to Minato.

11- When he first obtained BM kakashi compared him to Minato. 
12- When he learned Chakra Transfer jutsu he was compared to Minato. 

Kishi even gave Minato KCM & BM to make them smellier to each other even further!  
*THOSE ARE POWER UPS. *

Hashirama:

1- obito compared Naruto to Hashi in term of the Well Of Fire. 
2- Tobirama compared Naruto to Hashi in term of stupidity, goofiness,,,etc 
3- Hashi compared him to himself in term of chakra. 

THOSE ARE PERSONALITY. Except the last one. It is like when Minato, Tsunade, and Jman
compare Naruto to his mother IN TERM OF PERSONALITY. 

That's why I see Minato as the benchmark for Minato in term of power.

Now, this is OVERALL, so someone may say, but Hashi has The Bijuu weakness, which is
his wood, and Minato use his BM, well even though I disagree because just because he has
a weakness, that does not make him the winner unless you believe Hashi, SM Naruto, SM Kabuto and SM Jman are stronger than the Juubi's host because they have his weakness, but
again this overall, and I think Minato is better, and you can look to their feats in Wars. 

Minato id better on both 3rd and 4th Wars, than What Hashi did in the 1st and 4th Wars. 




2- Hashirama. 
3- 3rd Raikage

The same, I did say I think Onoki is the strongest in that Generation, but I think the Raikage
overall is better than him. 

4- Tobirama. 
5- Onoki. 

I think that's *my opinion* in those.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 15, 2013)

Hashirama Senju 
Tobirama Senju 
Sandaime Raikage 
Minato Namikaze 
Tsunade 

Although we still don't know who the Sandaime Mizukage was - he/she could have been powerful. Given how young Yagura was, and the fact that he was only in office for a few years, I would guess that the Sandaime had a pretty long reign.


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## Ghost (Dec 15, 2013)

Hashi
Tobirama
Raikage
Minato
Tsunade/Gaara

1. Hashi
2. Minato
3. Raikage
4. Tobirama
5. Tsunade/Gaara


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## Lord Stark (Dec 15, 2013)

Hashirama
Tobirama
Hiruzen
Minato
Gaara


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## crisler (Dec 15, 2013)

hashi
tobirama
hiruzen
minato
gaara

overall

hashi
minato/tobirama
hiruzen
gaara


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 15, 2013)

xxHKCDxx said:


> What are the overall strongest kages in each generation,, this is my opinion
> 1st Generation: Hashirama Senju
> 2nd Generation: Tobirama Senju
> 3rd Generation: Third Raikage
> ...



I'd mostly agree with this. However for the third, feats can suggest the Raikage but portrayal suggests Hiruzen. Whereas for the fifth, I wouldn't say Gaara so readily... given there is Oonoki to consider.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2013)

Shodai: Hashirama 

Nindaime : Tobirama

Sandaime : Hiruzen

Yondaime: Minato

Godaime: Gaara

It's obvious Kishi has went out of his way to show the Hokages are usually the strongest Kages of their generation mainly thru hype and portrayal the Hokages were the power that could change the tides of the war, all 4 were at one time considered the strongest shinobi in the world at the time of their reign , Gaara is the only exception but he's sort of a main character himself but once Naruto becomes Hokage he'll be the strongest of Gaara's generation anyways.


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## Dominus (Dec 15, 2013)

*First* Hokage - _Hashirama_ 
*Second* Hokage - _Tobirama_
*Third* Tsuchikage - _Ōnoki_
*Fourth* Hokage - _Minato_
*Fifth* Kazekage - _Gaara_


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## SuperSaqer (Dec 15, 2013)

Hiruzen has the most hype out of *ALL* the Kages, so at least he should take the 3rd Generation territory.


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2013)

SuperSaqer said:


> Hiruzen has the most hype out of *ALL* the Kages, so at least he should take the 3rd Generation territory.



If the hype is not for Hashirama people don't care about it. It's only true if it was for Hashirama.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 15, 2013)

Hashirama
Muu
Oonoki
Minato
Shukaku Gaara or Tsunade


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## Nikushimi (Dec 15, 2013)

1st Generation: Hashirama 
2nd Generation: Tobirama
3rd Generation: Hiruzen (prime)
4th Generation: Minato 
5th Generation: Tsunade

Yeah, it's always the Hokage.


Top 5 Kage of All Time:

0. Hiruzen (prime)*
1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Tobirama
4. & 5. 3rd Raikage/4th Raikage (tied)

*Lacks feats and we only have one hype statement to go by, but I'm keeping an open mind to the possibility.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'd mostly agree with this. However for the third, feats can suggest the Raikage but portrayal suggests Hiruzen. Whereas for the fifth, I wouldn't say Gaara so readily... given there is Oonoki to consider.



Oonoki is the 3rd Tsuchikage, though.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 15, 2013)

Lol at selective hyping. Where is Eighth Gate Edo Hiruzen fodderizing Madara and ending this war? Great, there are multiple statements about Hiruzen's prime. Now how about trying to be honest about the hype? The fact is that hype contradicts itself. Based on statements, Haku is invincible. Based on statements, no one can beat Tsunade in a close ranged fight. Based on statements, the Third Raikage cannot be harmed. Based on statements, Gaara can't be harmed. Based on statements, no one can avoid or stop Kamui. Yata Mirror can block anything and everything. Chidori Katana can't be blocked.

If people want to believe all of Hiruzen's hype, then you accept that he has Byakugan and Sharingan and can use Gentile Fist, Shadow Possession, Expansion, Shintenshin, Eight Gates, Chidori/Raikiri, Shackling Stakes, Medical Ninjutsu, Edo Tensei, all nature affinities, Toad Oil, Evil Sealing, 5 Element Seal and Unseal, all of the Uzumaki Fuinjutsu, Hiraishin and more. 

Anyway, on topic:

1: Hashirama
2: Tobirama
3: Oonoki
4: Minato
5: Gaara


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2013)

It doesn't matter what feats Hiruzen has when the author told us point blank Hiruzen was the strongest of the 5 Kage which to my knowledge includes Onoki, Hiruzen pushed back the full 9 tails with Emma, he sliced thru the Shinju Tree like Butter, he held his own against Pt 1 Orochimaru who was stated as being stronger than Jiriyia and on par with Minato,

Statements by the author >feats 

2 panels has placed Sakura on the Kage tier, one panel could cement the hype, feats are left up to interpretation makes for good debates , but one can't argue against the authors own words and through his words he's place Hiruzen above Onoki


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## Nikushimi (Dec 15, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Pt 1 Orochimaru who was stated as being stronger than Jiriyia and on par with Minato,



Wut?

Orochimaru and Jiraiya are equals, and both are significantly inferior to Minato.

It was stated back in part 1 that Oro would not have been a problem if Minato were still around.

Prime Hiruzen (by hype)>Minato>Orochimaru=Jiraiya>Old Hiruzen


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## Gibbs (Dec 15, 2013)

I'd like to make a point here, that you all are considering Bijuu Mode Minato as something that he had during his tenure as Hokage. This is a complete farce. He died shortly after sealing Kurama. He had no time for mastering it. He doesn't even get KCM as Hokage. Get that shit out of your heads.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 15, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> It doesn't matter what feats Hiruzen has when the author told us point blank Hiruzen was the strongest of the 5 Kage which to my knowledge includes Onoki, Hiruzen pushed back the full 9 tails with Emma, he sliced thru the Shinju Tree like Butter, he held his own against Pt 1 Orochimaru who was stated as being stronger than Jiriyia and on par with Minato,
> 
> Statements by the author >feats
> 
> 2 panels has placed Sakura on the Kage tier, one panel could cement the hype, feats are left up to interpretation makes for good debates , but one can't argue against the authors own words and through his words he's place Hiruzen above Onoki



Nope, the author did not tell us point blank that Hiruzen was the strongest of the 5 Kage. Unless you think that Kishimoto thinks the exact same way as every character he writes in the Manga. You already know that isn't true. Iruka and Kabuto are not Kishimoto. 

Kishi has SHOWN us that Hashirama is the strongest.


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## Hero (Dec 15, 2013)

Generation:
1. Hashirama
2. 2nd Mizukage/Mu/Tobirama
3. Onoki
4. Minato
5. Tsunade

Overall:
1. Hashirama
2. Tobirama
3. Minato
4. 3rd Raikage
5. Tsunade


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Dec 15, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Just like Itachi was said to be invincible? Or Pain was stated by Konan to be undefeatable?
> 
> Character statements are not always reliable or true, at all.




When it's consistant, then hellz yeah. Itachi may be the Solo King, but even he bows at the might of The Professor. Tile Shuriken Jutsu > NV.



My original post was tongue-in-cheek about Hiruzen. Pretty clear Third Raikage dominates that generation.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Dec 15, 2013)

People are still hanging onto a part 1 statement made by Iruka of all people to try and suggest Hiruzen is the strongest hokage? This is pathetic.  The best the man could do against Juubito was chuck shuriken at him.  Get this delusional idea that he's the strongest out of your heads. 

And Minato isn't nor will he ever be stronger than Hashirama. Hashirama is the pinnacle when it comes to shinobi. He has enormous chakra, scale, healing, power, and versatility. Nobody comes close to matching his battle prowess. I like Minato, but the truth is the truth.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Wut?
> 
> Orochimaru and Jiraiya are equals, and both are significantly inferior to Minato.
> 
> ...



Orochimaru was stronger than Jiriyia in pt 1 even Hiruzen says so, Jiriyia was stronger in pt 2 when Orochimaru lost usage of his arms, Hiruzen says Orochimaru could take on a small country by himself , 

No Hiruzen says no one alive he knew of could face Orochimaru then they being up Minato, saying that Minato would have a chance of facing Orochimaru but it wouldn't be a guaranteed victory, it would be like saying only Naruto could face Sasuke but it wouldn't be guranteed victory, shit they same the same thing about Sage Mode Naruto vs Pain and he loss, to be honest he would've needed to die to defeat Orochimaru as well only difference is he would've been able to take Orochimaru's soul , Minato with KCM I agree is above Orochimaru pt 1 but base Minato would've also needed Shika Fujin to win the bout 

Also consider Minato and Orochimaru were both rivals for 4th Hokage and only reason Hiruzen chose Minato because Orochimaru turned evil and this was without even knowing about Edo Tensei/ 8 Branch Technique /Kusanagi sword 

I would actually say

Current Orochimaru~Edo Minato~ Prime Hiruzen> Base Minato~ Pt 1 Orochimaru> Jiriyia> Old Hiruzen > pt 2 Orochimaru


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## Nikushimi (Dec 15, 2013)

I never took Minato's Bijuu Mode into account.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Nope, the author did not tell us point blank that Hiruzen was the strongest of the 5 Kage. Unless you think that Kishimoto thinks the exact same way as every character he writes in the Manga. You already know that isn't true. Iruka and Kabuto are not Kishimoto.
> 
> Kishi has SHOWN us that Hashirama is the strongest.



Not the strongest Hokage but the strongest of the Kage of the 5 great nations 

Really at this point there can be an argument made Prime Hiruzen still is the strongest Hokage if you look at it from a standpoint we've never seen Hiruzen in his youth or what was indicated to be his Prime ,


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> People are still hanging onto a part 1 statement made by Iruka of all people to try and suggest Hiruzen is the strongest hokage? This is pathetic.  The best the man could do against Juubito was chuck shuriken at him.  Get this delusional idea that he's the strongest out of your heads.
> 
> And Minato isn't nor will he ever be stronger than Hashirama. Hashirama is the pinnacle when it comes to shinobi. He has enormous chakra, scale, healing, power, and versatility. Nobody comes close to matching his battle prowess. I like Minato, but the truth is the truth.



What's the best Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama , Madara could do to him ?

Also show me panels of Hiruzen in his youth do ya got those available for me


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Dec 15, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Not the strongest Hokage but the strongest of the Kage of the 5 great nations
> 
> Really at this point there can be an argument made Prime Hiruzen still is the strongest Hokage if you look at it from a standpoint we've never seen Hiruzen in his youth or what was indicated to be his Prime ,



Personally, I believe Hiruzen in his prime was stronger than Orochimaru without Edo Tensei, but is he stronger than Jinton and meteor tanking Oonoki? Dunno, until feats show otherwise I will pick Oonoki.


----------



## fior fior (Dec 15, 2013)

Tobirama is an overrated piece of shit. All he can do is spit out dirty water and FTG V1.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Dec 15, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> What's the best Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama , Madara could do to him ?



Well let's see, Hashirama has an enormous statue that dwarfs a full powered kyuubi with 1000 hands and created a valley with its attack. Madara has a susanoo that dwarfs bijuu and destroys mountain ranges easily. Minato has BM and with it, bijuu bombs that destroy mountains. 

Hiruzen has.....shuriken.  



> Also show me panels of Hiruzen in his youth do ya got those available for me



I don't really give a shit about his prime. Going back 20 years isn't going to give him power that surpasses Hashirama or any top tier shinobi for that matter. And the fact that people actually believe it would only makes me laugh that much harder. 

The only thing that matters is feats and until Hiruzen provides some that suggest he's anywhere near Hashirama's level of power than he's staying exactly where he belongs. Under Hashirama and every other Hokage's bar Tsunade's foot.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Well let's see, Hashirama has an enormous statue that dwarfs a full powered kyuubi with 1000 hands and created a valley with its attack. Madara has a susanoo that dwarfs bijuu and destroys mountain ranges easily. Minato has BM and with it, bijuu bombs that destroy mountains.
> 
> Hiruzen has.....shuriken.
> 
> ...



like it did not give Hashi all that power when we saw the fidderent between his power as an edo
and his fight against madara?

you do realize that kishi can give him whatever he wants, no?


----------



## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Well let's see, Hashirama has an enormous statue that dwarfs a full powered kyuubi with 1000 hands and created a valley with its attack. Madara has a susanoo that dwarfs bijuu and destroys mountain ranges easily. Minato has BM and with it, bijuu bombs that destroy mountains.
> 
> Hiruzen has.....shuriken.
> 
> ...



Yet none of that could do anything against Jubbito consider the opponent , Hiruzen was in the same posistion as every other powerhouse in that scenario they were against a common enemy they could do nothing against , how do we know how said shuriken holds up againt another shinobi

Well of you dismiss Hiruzen in his youth then you are going against the author of the manga 

No feats only matter to the fans perception , the author words are where the facts usually lie


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Dec 15, 2013)

Elia said:


> like it did not give Hashi all that power when we saw the fidderent between his power as an edo
> and his fight against madara?
> 
> you do realize that kishi can give him whatever he wants, no?



And? Hiruzen has yet to demonstrate anything near Hashirama's level and until he does he's not being placed anywhere near that level.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And? Hiruzen has yet to demonstrate anything near Hashirama's level and until he does he's not being placed anywhere near that level.



and there a different between fanfiction and manga canon. 
if kishi want, he can make Hiruzen kick Hashi's ass as he did make him fodderize Hashi in part 1.
and none of us can do a thing about that.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Dec 15, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yet none of that could do anything against Jubbito consider the opponent , Hiruzen was in the same posistion as every other powerhouse in that scenario they were against a common enemy they could do nothing against , how do we know how said shuriken holds up againt another shinobi



I don't care what they accomplished against Juubito. The fact is they're all 1000x more powerful than shuriken, which is all Hiruzen could manage to throw at him. Pitiful. 



> Well of you dismiss Hiruzen in his youth then you are going against the author of the manga



I'm not dismissing anything. That was a part 1 statement made by a very questionable source. Until Hiruzen demonstrates power rivaling Hashirama then he's staying where he belongs in my view. Far beneath him. I don't really care what you think. 



> No feats only matter to the fans perception , the author words are where the facts usually lie



And facts are that Hiruzen's done nothing to show he's anywhere near Hashirama's level. Going back 20 years isn't going to all of the sudden give him Hashirama level strength.



Elia said:


> and there a different between fanfiction and manga canon.
> if kishi want, he can make Hiruzen kick Hashi's ass as he did make him fodderize Hashi in part 1.
> and none of us can do a thing about that.



And has he? No. Your little fanfictions here aren't doing you any good. Facts are that Hiruzen hasn't demonstrated power anywhere close to Hashirama's. Period. There's nothing more to discuss.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And has he? No. Your little fanfictions here aren't doing you any good. Facts are that Hiruzen hasn't demonstrated power anywhere close to Hashirama's. Period. There's nothing more to discuss.



it seems you're confuse with the definition. 
what I'm saying is what was stated in the manga 
"canon" is what was said in the manga. 

fanfiction is anything else, like what you are saying. 
you have to learn how to separate your opinion from facts.  

Anways, I was not even talking about what he has shown, but rather about Kishi himself. 
you were talking about that as if kichi can't do a thing about him.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Dec 15, 2013)

Elia said:


> it seems you're confuse with the definition.
> what I'm saying is what was stated in the manga
> "canon" is what was said in the manga.
> 
> ...



And as I've said, when Kishi shows Hiruzen demonstrating power that suggests he's the most powerful Hokage is when I'll take that statement at face value. So far, he hasn't come close and if Kishi really wanted him to be the most powerful Hokage then he'd of had Hiruzen show it during this war. He hasn't. Instead, the best he's been able to do is chuck shuriken. 

This argument is weak, outdated, and frankly irrelevant at this point.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 15, 2013)

Elia said:


> If the hype is not for Hashirama people don't care about it. It's only true if it was for Hashirama.


But, what if it was Minato's hype?  Wouldn't you like that?


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And as I've said, when Kishi shows Hiruzen demonstrating power that suggests he's the most powerful Hokage is when I'll take that statement at face value. So far, he hasn't come close and if Kishi really wanted him to be the most powerful Hokage then he'd of had Hiruzen show it during this war. He hasn't. Instead, the best he's been able to do is chuck shuriken.
> 
> This argument is weak, outdated, and frankly irrelevant at this point.



Well, I agree with that. I was waiting for him to show something in this war, but apparently not.  
but it does not matter, I think Minato is the strongest Hokage anyway. =ر


> But, what if it was Minato's hype? Wouldn't you like that?


I take any hype for any character Not only for some. It's canon whether I like it or not.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 15, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Orochimaru was stronger than Jiriyia in pt 1 even Hiruzen says so, Jiriyia was stronger in pt 2 when Orochimaru lost usage of his arms,



Hiruzen never said any such thing; in fact, it was Ebisu who said only Jiraiya could beat Orochimaru because they were both Sannin.



> Hiruzen says Orochimaru could take on a small country by himself ,



This is news? Most Kage/Akatsuki can do that.



> No Hiruzen says no one alive he knew of could face Orochimaru



He was referring to shinobi in the village at the time, which--as far as he knew--Jiraiya wasn't.



> then they being up Minato, saying that Minato would have a chance of facing Orochimaru but it wouldn't be a guaranteed victory, it would be like saying only Naruto could face Sasuke but it wouldn't be guranteed victory,



No, Anko said "If the 4th were still alive" and trailed off, the implication being that he could handle Orochimaru because Hiruzen just said nobody in the village could.



> shit they same the same thing about Sage Mode Naruto vs Pain and he loss,



No, Pain was clearly stronger than Naruto.



> to be honest he would've needed to die to defeat Orochimaru as well only difference is he would've been able to take Orochimaru's soul , Minato with KCM I agree is above Orochimaru pt 1 but base Minato would've also needed Shika Fujin to win the bout



Or Minato could just effortlessly blitz him repeatedly with Hiraishin until he is beaten down for good.



> Also consider Minato and Orochimaru were both rivals for 4th Hokage



Irrelevant; being rival candidates does not mean they were rivals in power.



> and only reason Hiruzen chose Minato because Orochimaru turned evil and this was without even knowing about Edo Tensei/ 8 Branch Technique /Kusanagi sword



It's not stated why Minato was chosen over Orochimaru, but putting that aside, there's no doubt that he's the much stronger of the two.



> I would actually say
> 
> Current Orochimaru~Edo Minato~ Prime Hiruzen> Base Minato~ Pt 1 Orochimaru> Jiriyia> Old Hiruzen > pt 2 Orochimaru



This would make sense if Orochimaru didn't already admit and prove his inferiority to Itachi, placing him well below Minato's level.

Prime Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest of the Hokage and we have no feats to go by, so putting him between Minatos is baseless conjecture that undermines the source material.


----------



## Gibbs (Dec 15, 2013)

I'd like to make a point here, that you all are considering Bijuu Mode Minato as something that he had during his tenure as Hokage. This is a complete farce. He died shortly after sealing Kurama. He had no time for mastering it. He doesn't even get KCM as Hokage. Get that shit out of your heads.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 15, 2013)

The Phoenix King said:


> I'd like to make a point here, that you all are considering Bijuu Mode Minato as something that he had during his tenure as Hokage. This is a complete farce. He died shortly after sealing Kurama. He had no time for mastering it. He doesn't even get KCM as Hokage. Get that shit out of your heads.



it's part of his power now whether you like it or not is irrelevant.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 15, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> I don't care what they accomplished against Juubito. The fact is they're all 1000x more powerful than shuriken, which is all Hiruzen could manage to throw at him. Pitiful.


I'm not saying I think Hiruzen has at all displayed anything matching his hype, but I don't see why people sleep on Hiruzen's Shuriken Kage Bushin so much. Obito was using Mangekyo Techniques to hurl similar weapon spam at characters like BM Naruto, Hachibi, Gai, and Kakashi, and it didn't prove useless, rather it proved to present clear difficulty. 

So while not amazing it is much better than people give it credit for.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Dec 15, 2013)

> Hiruzen never said any such thing; in fact, it was Ebisu who said only Jiraiya could beat Orochimaru because they were both Sannin.



Hiruzen always believed Orochimaru to be his student with the most potential and wanted him to be his successor , and guess what Orochimaru has been depicted as the stronger of the 2 except when he couldn't use jutsu 




> This is news? Most Kage/Akatsuki can do that.



No they couldn't only Atakuski member who accomplished this other than Orochimaru is Nagato who is obviously stronger than most of the other Hokages, Kakuzu was fodderized by Wind Arc Naruto, Kisame was going blow for blow with Asuma and was warned by Itachi about pt 1 Kakashi and base Gai, he has hardly been depicted that way, Itachi has the might but his illness would hinder him, Konan could achieve this only with Paper Ocean in her terrain but anywhere else she's hardly a threat of that magnitude , Deidara he would've been crushed by a Gaara not protecting the village and this was Gaara at the beggining of pt 2 who wasn't even Kage level , he was defeated by Hebi Sasuke who I don't care what the board says is not Kage level, and last but not least was defeated by Omio and Sai, this guy isn't taking out a small country by himself , Hidan and Zetsu are givens based on what has been shown so far

the only Atakuski what could take on a small nation by feats is probably Nagato, Itachi(healthy/Edo), Konan but only in her terrain 




> He was referring to shinobi in the village at the time, which--as far as he knew--Jiraiya wasn't.



Yet he knows Minato isn't in the village either and only though of him, this could've been a Segway to at least think of his Sannin teammates but chose not to it's obvious Jiriyia wasn't even thought of in this scenario because Hiruzen knows that Jiriyia couldn't defeat him 



> No, Anko said "If the 4th were still alive" and trailed off, the implication being that he could handle Orochimaru because Hiruzen just said nobody in the village could.



That just indicates that he's probably the only person she knows that would have a chance against Orochimaru nowhere does she indicate guranteed victory for Minato that was easily hype for Orochimaru



> No, Pain was clearly stronger than Naruto.



yes he was stronger but my point was that many believed only Naruto after traning in Sage Mode had a chance to defeat him a chance they weren't guranteed victory , just like Anko was guaranteeing Minato would win only that he would have a chance 





> Or Minato could just effortlessly blitz him repeatedly with Hiraishin until he is beaten down for good.



Kunai and Rasengan he'll laugh that shit off  Minato would need Shika Fujin to kill him 




> Irrelevant; being rival candidates does not mean they were rivals in power.



 being rival candidates means everything 

Hashirama and Madara were rivals for Hokage

Danzo and Hiruzen were rivals for Hokage

Naruto and Sasuke are now rivals for Hokage 

being a rival for Hokage meant to consider Orochimaru at that time he was at least close in power to Minato when we have learned throughout the manga the Hokage is mainly chose because of strength but also the WOF, being a rival indicates he was close in power but didn't have the WOF due to his evil ways 



> It's not stated why Minato was chosen over Orochimaru, but putting that aside, there's no doubt that he's the much stronger of the two.



It is stated Orochimaru started to turn evil and go down a dark path that's why Minato was chosen



> This would make sense if Orochimaru didn't already admit and prove his inferiority to Itachi, placing him well below Minato's level.



He admitted inferiority after he lost usage of his arms , besides he only wanted to take Itachi's body not defeat him in combat, Itachi's body was the impossible dream



> Prime Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest of the Hokage and we have no feats to go by, so putting him between Minatos is baseless conjecture that undermines the source material.



No it isn't Minato has his own hype working for him being that Raikage felt Minato was the savior and Jiriyia believed Minato to be the greatest shinobi to have ever lived.


----------



## Gibbs (Dec 15, 2013)

Elia said:


> it's part of his power now whether you like it or not is irrelevant.



The OP stated from each generation. This implies that the question is regarding when they were in power. Minato had no KCM or Bijuu mode in power.


----------



## Dominus (Dec 15, 2013)

fior fior said:


> Tobirama is an overrated piece of shit. All he can do is spit out dirty water and FTG V1.



And Edo Tensei and Gojou Kibaku Fuda and other techniques that go along with Edo Tensei and is a great kenjutsu user and a very skilled sensor and is extremely intelligent and who knows what else he has up his sleeve after finding out that he created Kage Bunshin, Edo Tensei and Hiraishin.

His performance throughout the war was amazing, he organized, participated and/or alone attacked the most powerful character next to the Rikudou 4 times, he also saved Naruto 2 times and figured out Juubito's weakness and abilities.

Overrating would be saying that he's the strongest Kage of all time, but saying that he's the strongest Kage of the 2nd generation really isn't. You're just underestimating him.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 15, 2013)

its been written and it's been said..
Hiruzen was the strongest in his Kage generation..
Oonoki's portrayal of his feats does not proove him being > Hiruzen outright..
sandaime raikage and kazekage were strongest in their respective
hidden villages history's kage thrones, but never was mentioned them
being the strongest amongst other kages..

canon > your opinion..


----------



## J★J♥ (Dec 15, 2013)

1)Hashirama
2)Muu
3)Onoki
4)Gaaras Father
5)Tsunade


----------



## Veracity (Dec 15, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> 1)Hashirama
> 2)Muu
> 3)Onoki
> 4)Gaaras Father
> 5)Tsunade



Whoa whoa. Just no. You realize the 4th generation has Ay and Minato who would both murder the KazeKage.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 16, 2013)

Hashirama
Tobirama
Hiruzen 
Minato
Gaara

Lol at anyone who does not have hiruzen on their list what are you thinking


----------



## Veracity (Dec 16, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> Hashirama
> Tobirama
> Hiruzen
> Minato
> ...



Hiruzen has pussy feats. If we go by feats them the Sandaime Raikage steamrolls over him.

Hype literally means nothing. Itachi has invincibility hype. Tsunade is hyped to be equal to SM Jirayia. Darui is hyped to be Kakashis level. Kimmi was hyped to be stronger then Part 1 Kakashi and Gai.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 16, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Hiruzen has pussy feats. If we go by feats them the Sandaime Raikage steamrolls over him.
> 
> Hype literally means nothing. Itachi has invincibility hype. Tsunade is hyped to be equal to SM Jirayia. Darui is hyped to be Kakashis level. Kimmi was hyped to be stronger then Part 1 Kakashi and Gai.



we haven't seen sage of 6 paths in action himself so he has pussy feats too..lol

this guyz are ridiculous.. just because Hiruzen wasnt given the panel time
to showcase what he was in his prime in this power inflated shippuden,
he is now one of the weakest kage by their opinion.. lmao

where Kishi clearly conveyed thru manga canon that Hiruzen was
the strongest Kage of his era..

being appointed at such a young age in lieu of Tobirama himself 
was clear as daylight that he is indeed a beast..


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 16, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> we haven't seen sage of 6 paths in action himself so he has pussy feats too..lol
> 
> this guyz are ridiculous.. just because Hiruzen wasnt given the panel time
> to showcase what he was in his prime in this power inflated shippuden,
> ...



Beating the juubi and sealing his body while creating a fkn moon is the greatest feat any shinobi can achieve in the naruto verse 
The thing is hiruzen has no feats that display his hype which is why we can't consider him that strong... As he is about orochimaru level 
Yes hiruzen is a beast but the third raikage faced 10,000 shinobi and stalemated the hachibi
He easily beats hiruzen in anyones books


----------



## fior fior (Dec 16, 2013)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Beating the juubi and sealing his body while creating a fkn moon is the greatest feat any shinobi can achieve in the naruto verse
> The thing is hiruzen has no feats that display his hype which is why we can't consider him that strong... As* he is about orochimaru level *
> Yes hiruzen is a beast but the third raikage faced 10,000 shinobi and stalemated the hachibi
> He easily beats hiruzen in anyones books



As an eighty-year-old man, yes...

What was Madara doing at eighty? That's right, sitting on his arse, surviving off life support. At that point, he was about Mid Jounin level.

Edit: in case you didn't know, a ninja in the prime of their youth is a lot stronger than they are in their elderly years.

Oh, and Ooro is almost a top tier, so even an eighty-year-old Hiruzen could give most of the powerhouses a run for their money.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 16, 2013)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Beating the juubi and sealing his body while creating a fkn moon is the greatest feat any shinobi can achieve in the naruto verse
> The thing is hiruzen has no feats that display his hype which is why we can't consider him that strong... As he is about orochimaru level
> Yes hiruzen is a beast but the third raikage faced 10,000 shinobi and stalemated the hachibi
> He easily beats hiruzen in anyones books



Manga panel where it illustrates how the so6p defeated the juubi and creatied the moon?
if none? no feats at all, just like Hiruzen as you guyz claim.. 

3rd raikage easily beats Hiruzen? why didnt he do it in their era?


----------



## Veracity (Dec 16, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> we haven't seen sage of 6 paths in action himself so he has pussy feats too..lol
> 
> this guyz are ridiculous.. just because Hiruzen wasnt given the panel time
> to showcase what he was in his prime in this power inflated shippuden,
> ...



Lol the difference between the two people you just named is the So6p is ALL hype with no feats while Hiruzen is still has feats.   We also have extremely powerful creatures like the Juubi being defeated by the So6p, and all this can be confirmed because we have Obito as the new So6p, and the Juubi wrecking havoc to everyone, so someone had to stop that shit.

Then we have Hiruzen getting his ass handed to him by Juubito and providing a lot less useful support then both Tobirama and Minato. 

Then we also have Hiruzen stugfling heavily against literal 5% and 5% Tobirama who did not use any top tier Justu; FTG and Wood human. It is true he wasn't in his "prime" form, but it's no doubt that a Wood human that can stalemate PS would wipe him off the planet. Also take Into consideration that Kishi specifically at that Time made out for the Edo Kage to be at full power, then later decided to basically say they were no where near their true power, further pushing the notion that Hiruzen loses his hype.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Dec 16, 2013)

fior fior said:


> As an eighty-year-old man, yes...
> 
> What was Madara doing at eighty? That's right, sitting on his arse, surviving off life support. At that point, he was about Mid Jounin level.
> 
> ...



I hope you mean in part 1. Because he's nowhere close to top tier currently. 

And Hiruzen was in his 60s (68-69 to be exact), not his 80s. Stop trying to exaggerate his age to make him look more impressive.


----------



## Bansai (Dec 16, 2013)

1st Generation: Hashirama Senju
2nd Generation: Tobirama Senju
3rd Generation: Ōnoki (prime)
4th Generation: Minato Namikaze
5th Generation: Tsunade

Tsunade is actually the only worthy Kage of the 5th generation. We can only pick between Mei Terumi (who isn't even worthy of her title IMO) and Gaara, who isn't much of a great Kage either.


----------



## Dominus (Dec 16, 2013)

fior fior said:


> As an eighty-year-old man, yes...
> 
> What was Madara doing at eighty? That's right, sitting on his arse, surviving off life support. At that point, he was about Mid Jounin level.



I'm pretty sure Madara was older than Hiruzen who was 69 and Madara could summon the Gedou Mazou.



redfang45 said:


> 3rd raikage easily beats Hiruzen? why didnt he do it in their era?



Hiruzen easily beats the Third Raikage? Why didn't he do it in their era? 



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> I hope you mean in part 1. Because he's nowhere close to top tier currently.



With Edo Tensei, he is.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 16, 2013)

The Phoenix King said:


> I'd like to make a point here, that you all are considering Bijuu Mode Minato as something that he had during his tenure as Hokage. This is a complete farce. He died shortly after sealing Kurama. He had no time for mastering it. He doesn't even get KCM as Hokage. Get that shit out of your heads.



I am willing to bet my right arm no one here took BM into account when placing minato as the strongest. A said he could not be surpassed after fighting him multiple times and the fouth kazekage got murdered by orochimaru(anko thought minato could beat his ass). We barely know anything about the others besides yagura who was brainwashed for most his tenure. Minato is painted as the strongest of his class and that's just how the cookie crumble.

Anyway
1st. Hashirama Senju
2nd. Tobirama Senju
3rd. Hiruzen Sarutobi or Onoki
4th Minato Namikaze
5th Tsunade

As for the third i am willing to bet hiruzen was top dog during his time despite lack of feats. Hiruzen mention onoki's dust release yet he is still alive? Something tell me it's because he bested onoki despite that . Not to mention his hype is stacked pretty high despite the whole retcon business.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 16, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Lol the difference between the two people you just named is the So6p is ALL hype with no feats while Hiruzen is still has feats.   We also have extremely powerful creatures like the Juubi being defeated by the So6p, and all this can be confirmed because we have Obito as the new So6p, and the Juubi wrecking havoc to everyone, so someone had to stop that shit.
> 
> Then we have Hiruzen getting his ass handed to him by Juubito and providing a lot less useful support then both Tobirama and Minato.
> 
> Then we also have Hiruzen stugfling heavily against literal 5% and 5% Tobirama who did not use any top tier Justu; FTG and Wood human. It is true he wasn't in his "prime" form, but it's no doubt that a Wood human that can stalemate PS would wipe him off the planet. Also take Into consideration that Kishi specifically at that Time made out for the Edo Kage to be at full power, then later decided to basically say they were no where near their true power, further pushing the notion that Hiruzen loses his hype.



Its as if Hiruzen didnt intentionally tanked that Juubitard's attack to say his ass got handed to him easily..

lol comparing the feats and Kishi's portrayal on that early part 1 and now? 
do you honestly believe he had that foreseeing of the power scaling that is taking place
right now?



Authoritah said:


> Hiruzen easily beats the Third Raikage? Why didn't he do it in their era?



did I say Hiruzen beats sandaime raikage EASILY? quote me please...


----------



## Dominus (Dec 16, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> did I say Hiruzen beats sandaime raikage EASILY? quote me please...



You seem to believe in Hiruzen's hype, if you do, then if you think that in his prime he was stronger than Hashirama who can effortlessly defeat the Third Raikage, you must think that Hiruzen can also defeat him easily, unless you just believe that the statement about him being the strongest Kage of his generation is true.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 16, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> we haven't seen sage of 6 paths in action himself so he has pussy feats too..lol
> 
> this guyz are ridiculous.. just because Hiruzen wasnt given the panel time
> to showcase what he was in his prime in this power inflated shippuden,
> ...





redfang45 said:


> Its as if Hiruzen didnt intentionally tanked that Juubitard's attack to say his ass got handed to him easily..
> 
> lol comparing the feats and Kishi's portrayal on that early part 1 and now?
> do you honestly believe he had that foreseeing of the power scaling that is taking place
> ...



What? I seriously can't understand you? Seems to me like Hiruzen could not react or do anything in that battle. He got one paneled and didn't come back until like 6 or 7 chapters IIRC. Doesn't sound to worthy to me.

Lol yes I'm using feats. Why the hell would I not? His portrayal does not live up to his feats and that's what Kishi intentionally did. He was "suppose" to be god of Shinobi but his title got replaced by Hashirama. Point blank period.


----------



## J★J♥ (Dec 16, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Whoa whoa. Just no. You realize the 4th generation has Ay and Minato who would both murder the KazeKage.



Ahahaha Minato with his chunin level razengans murdering Kazekage  nice joke  not.

And whats A going to do ? punch him through 100 meters of space ? this does not even deserve a full giogio ill give you one gio.
:gio


----------



## Veracity (Dec 16, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Ahahaha Minato with his chunin level razengans murdering Kazekage  nice joke  not.
> 
> And whats A going to do ? punch him through 100 meters of space ? this does not even deserve a full giogio ill give you one gio.
> :gio



I'm not even going to bother with Minato, because you know what you said was just fucking retarded.

Ay on the other hand blitzes the shit out of the KazeKage. He has the stamina, strength, speed, and elemental advantage or KazeKage. IF somehow he manages to get caught in Sand he simply buries though with his immense strength and elemental advantage.

Not mention that Gaara( who is weaker then Ay) 2 paneled his father. So yeah you get 2:


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 16, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> You seem to believe in Hiruzen's hype, if you do, then if you think that in his prime he was stronger than Hashirama who can effortlessly defeat the Third Raikage, you must think that Hiruzen can also defeat him easily, unless you just believe that the statement about him being the strongest Kage of his generation is true.



Yeah I do believe in Hiruzen's hype.. a writer communicates his thoughts
through his characters.. and up until now, there are no statement saying
this other Sandaime Kage from other village was the strongest among all..
it was always they were the strongest in their respective village..
ONLY Hiruzen had that praise.. 

and Prime Hiruzen defeating Tobirama/Hashirama? why not?..
anything could happen in battle.. they aren't immortals..


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 17, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> It's not reading comprehension. I can't understand what you are typing.



pardon for my bad english.. what I am saying is Hiruzen purposely took that
juubito attack while taking advantage of his ET form in contrary to yours and others
thought that it wasnt on purpose and Hiruzen just got sh1t on by juubito..



Likes boss said:


> Obviously Kishi does. When he first revived Tobirama and Hashirama nothing was said about them being any weaker then normal. Which pushed the notion of Hiruzen being an animal. Hiruzen HIMSELF didn't even comment on how pitiful they were back then. Which leads to the obvious conclusion that Kishi decided for them both to be stronger in part 2 and superior to Hiruzen.



That's where Kishi's thoughts got fuqd up.. 




Likes boss said:


> Hiruzen straight got his shit stolen from him. How the hell could there be 2 " God of Shinobi"? There is only one now. And I'm going to give it to the one who could defeat  the strongest Uchiha and the nine tails same time.



There are 3 entities who has the title, its a simple fact and canon.
Hiruzen
Sage of Six Paths
Hashirama 

there were no statements that says, hey this is the NEW god,
or he is the ONLY god.. it's not the real "god" concept that 
Kishi wants to portray, all of them DIED. It's just a title of recognition.


----------



## Dominus (Dec 17, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Yeah I do believe in Hiruzen's hype



Then I was right, if you believe he's the strongest Hokage then, you must also believe that he can defeat the Raikage easily.
The statements like him being able to use all the justu that exist in Konoha are ridiculous.



> .. a writer communicates his thoughts
> through his characters.. and up until now, there are no statement saying
> this other Sandaime Kage from other village was the strongest among all..
> it was always they were the strongest in their respective village..
> ...



Because I can't even imagine Hiruzen having a justu on this level.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 17, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> pardon for my bad english.. what I am saying is Hiruzen purposely took that
> juubito attack while taking advantage of his ET form in contrary to yours and others
> thought that it wasnt on purpose and Hiruzen just got sh1t on by juubito..
> 
> ...



I'm going to have to disagree here. I'm definitely not under the impression that he tanked that attack on "purpose." Why the hell would he do that? Why not avoid getting his body bisected, and actually try to counterattack. Especially considering that specific attack put him out of the game for several chapters. People thought he was dead lol. 

Kishi intended to do that on purpose.

The Sage of the 6 paths lived in a completely different era, as Hashirama and Hiruzen lived during the same time.

Also you have to take into consideration, that when Hiruzen fought Hashirama, NOTHING was said about Hashirama being extremely powerful. Hiruzen didn't say anything about the fact that Hashirama was at like 5% compared to now. You know why? Because Kishi decided to make him powerful in part 2, and move the tittle to Hashirama.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 17, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> It's not reading comprehension. I can't understand what you are typing.
> 
> Obviously Kishi does. When he first revived Tobirama and Hashirama nothing was said about them being any weaker then normal. Which pushed the notion of Hiruzen being an animal. Hiruzen HIMSELF didn't even comment on how pitiful they were back then. Which leads to the obvious conclusion that Kishi decided for them both to be stronger in part 2 and superior to Hiruzen.
> 
> Hiruzen straight got his shit stolen from him. How the hell could there be 2 " God of Shinobi"? There is only one now. And I'm going to give it to the one who could defeat  the strongest Uchiha and the nine tails same time.



There was four Gods of Shinobi
Sage of six paths
Hashirama
Hiruzen
Nagato

Each one in a different era


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 17, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> Then I was right, if you believe he's the strongest Hokage then, you must also believe that he can defeat the Raikage easily.
> The statements like him being able to use all the justu that exist in Konoha are ridiculous.
> 
> Because I can't even imagine Hiruzen having a justu on this level.



I would believe he could defeat Sandaime Raikage but never did I state it would be easy..
or even other kage for that matter saying juggernaught is an easy opponent is ridiculous..

Its canon that Hiruzen was stated to know all the Konoha jutsus,
and you can do nothing about that..

Jutsu of that scale? Anything is possible in Kishi's dreamland..
if Kishi has to pull something close to it for Hiruzen, it is already a given..
just make Enma the real deal Son Wukong Staff and we are good to go..
If you have read Journey to the West, that might clear things up how
Adamantine staff could make Hiruzen god tier..

if you cant imagine how Hiruzen could defeat Hashirama,
I cant even imagine too how 20 elite fodders defeated your Tobirama,
while on the otherside Sandaime Raikage tanked 10k..


----------



## Dominus (Dec 17, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> I would believe he could defeat Sandaime Raikage but never did I state it would be easy..
> or even other kage for that matter saying juggernaught is an easy opponent is ridiculous..



Well if you believe that he's stronger than Hashirama who can defeat the Raikage easily, how do you not believe that prime Hiruzen would defeat him easily, I don't get your logic.



> Its canon that Hiruzen was stated to know all the Konoha jutsus,
> and you can do nothing about that..



So you believe that he can use Edo Tensei, Hiraishin, Tsunade's medical ninjutsu...?

Then there is only one thing left for me to do...

*Spoiler*: __ 










> Jutsu of that scale? Anything is possible in Kishi's dreamland..
> if Kishi has to pull something close to it for Hiruzen, it is already a given..
> just make Enma the real deal Son Wukong Staff and we are good to go..
> If you have read Journey to the West, that might clear things up how
> Adamantine staff could make Hiruzen god tier..



I wonder how strong do you think Danzou, Chiyo, Onoki and other people of Hiruzen's generation were in their youth.



> if you cant imagine how Hiruzen could defeat Hashirama,
> I cant even imagine too how 20 elite fodders defeated your Tobirama,
> while on the otherside Sandaime Raikage tanked 10k..



Those shinobi that the Raikage fought weren't of the same caliber as the ones Tobirama fought. If they were jounin-level and with Kinkaku and Ginkaku on their side, I don't find it very strange that they defeated him. Hiraishin and Edo Tensei would be useless because of the number of his enemies.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 17, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> There was four Gods of Shinobi
> Sage of six paths
> Hashirama
> Hiruzen
> ...



They weren't all stated to be God Of Shinobi. 

Hashirama and Hiruzen lived in the same time era.
Hiruzen and Nagato in the same time era.

There is never 2 God of Shinobi living at the same time. Does not make sense. And funny how in part 1 Hashirama was never revered as god of Shinobi but In part 2 he is.


----------



## Ino Yamanaka (Dec 17, 2013)

Generation 1: Hashirama
Generation 2: Tobirama
Generation 3: Onoki
Generation 4: Minato
Generation 5: Gaara


----------



## fior fior (Dec 17, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> I hope you mean in part 1. Because he's nowhere close to top tier currently.
> 
> And Hiruzen was in his 60s (68-69 to be exact), not his 80s. Stop trying to exaggerate his age to make him look more impressive.



When you're 60 years old, think back on this day and do a fitness test. You'll find that you've gotten a lot worse.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 17, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> Well if you believe that he's stronger than Hashirama who can defeat the Raikage easily, how do you not believe that prime Hiruzen would defeat him easily, I don't get your logic.



did I agree that Hashirama would defeat the Raikage easily?
normal mokuton wont do sh1t against juggernaught,
that fight wont be easy doe..



Authoritah said:


> So you believe that he can use Edo Tensei, Hiraishin, Tsunade's medical ninjutsu...?
> 
> Then there is only one thing left for me to do...
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



why blame me? Kishi wrote it.. 



Authoritah said:


> I wonder how strong do you think Danzou, Chiyo, Onoki and other people of Hiruzen's generation were in their youth.



ask Tobirama between Danzo and Hiruzen coz he knew better..
and all we know is Hiruzen got that reputation thru his entire shinobi life to be called GoS, professor and the strongest Kage in his generation.. 



Authoritah said:


> Those shinobi that the Raikage fought weren't of the same caliber as the ones Tobirama fought. If they were jounin-level and with Kinkaku and Ginkaku on their side, I don't find it very strange that they defeated him. Hiraishin and Edo Tensei would be useless because of the number of his enemies.



who said that the gold and silver brothers were there?
its still an assumption, all they were given credit for
was the near death of Tobirama in their coup..
now that would leave us purely to those 20 elite fodders..
so you believe now on the power of hype?


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 18, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> They weren't all stated to be God Of Shinobi.
> 
> Hashirama and Hiruzen lived in the same time era.
> Hiruzen and Nagato in the same time era.
> ...



Yes they were look it up.
They lived at the same time but were not god of Shinobi at the same time.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 18, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> They weren't all stated to be God Of Shinobi.
> 
> Hashirama and Hiruzen lived in the same time era.
> Hiruzen and Nagato in the same time era.
> ...



lol.. just because they met and lived at the same time,
you can already consider them comparable to each other for a reputation..

In Hashirama's reign, Hiruzen was still a kid.. cmon what a logic do you apply here?
Its as if you are saying part 1 Kakashi and Sasuke are worthy to be compared
to who was the best Sharingan user in Konoha back in those days..


----------



## Veracity (Dec 18, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> lol.. just because they met and lived at the same time,
> you can already consider them comparable to each other for a reputation..
> 
> In Hashirama's reign, Hiruzen was still a kid.. cmon what a logic do you apply here?
> ...



Yet still doesn't matter right? I refuted your entire point, and you really haven't said anything back.

We KNOW that Kishi specifically took the tittle away from Hiruzen. Like I said more then once. Hiruzen was not surprised by the power levels of the Edo Bros, even though they were at around 5% of regular power. That pushes the notion that Kishi did not intend for Hashirama to be so powerful. He wasn't even mentioned as the god of Shinobi way back in part 1. Because Kishi did not think of him as such back then. You can have your have assed part 1 Hiruzen hype. But in part 2 Hashirama trumps that and would slaughter him right? Yes he would.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 18, 2013)

What is Hiruzen's argument when he didn't do shit during the entire fight with the Jūbi? If he was such a powerhouse, we should have at least seen something superior to Tobirama. But yet, we saw nothing from him when he has had plenty of time to do so.

It's amazing to me how people still try to say he's stronger than Hashirama when not one feat he has can even come close to Shodai, especially considering he has had ample opportunity to show us said feats.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 18, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Yet still doesn't matter right? I refuted your entire point, and you really haven't said anything back.
> 
> We KNOW that Kishi specifically took the tittle away from Hiruzen. Like I said more then once. Hiruzen was not surprised by the power levels of the Edo Bros, even though they were at around 5% of regular power. That pushes the notion that Kishi did not intend for Hashirama to be so powerful. He wasn't even mentioned as the god of Shinobi way back in part 1. Because Kishi did not think of him as such back then. You can have your have assed part 1 Hiruzen hype. But in part 2 Hashirama trumps that and would slaughter him right? Yes he would.



lol it is not a Boxing belt that would stripped from one guy to the other.. 
and it was never been stated to be like that..
you've been quoted already by others too saying we have other title owner of gos..
but still you insist No, only Hashi has it now..
if that's what you are thinking and insisting, we cant do shit about it coz
we definitely cant agree with that..


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 18, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> What is Hiruzen's argument when he didn't do shit during the entire fight with the Jūbi? If he was such a powerhouse, we should have at least seen something superior to Tobirama. But yet, we saw nothing from him when he has had plenty of time to do so.
> 
> It's amazing to me how people still try to say he's stronger than Hashirama when not one feat he has can even come close to Shodai, especially considering he has had ample opportunity to show us said feats.



Try to write your own weekly released manga with such power scaling and number of relevant characters playing at the same field and see to it that every character wont contradict to its story line and we might agree that Kishi did already showcased what Hiruzen was capable of despite of his exclusive old age portrayal..


----------



## ScottofFury (Dec 18, 2013)

How the fuck can somebody even think Hirzuen is stronger still? The guy hasn't doesn't shit but throw some shurikens  ......


----------



## Dominus (Dec 18, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> did I agree that Hashirama would defeat the Raikage easily?
> normal mokuton wont do sh1t against juggernaught,
> that fight wont be easy doe..



Hashirama can defeat him effortlessly, with his wooden gates he can trap him and with the wooden dragon(s) he can absorb his chakra, he wouldn't even need SM to win this easily, Hashirama is on a completely different level.



> why blame me? Kishi wrote it..



I don't blame you for anything, I just can't believe that you think that nonsense is true.
You understand that people can change their minds right?



> ask Tobirama between Danzo and Hiruzen coz he knew better..
> and all we know is Hiruzen got that reputation thru his entire shinobi life to be called GoS, professor and the strongest Kage in his generation..



How does any of that prove that he's stronger than Hashirama or that the statements about him are true?



> who said that the gold and silver brothers were there?
> its still an assumption, all they were given credit for
> was the near death of Tobirama in their coup..
> now that would leave us purely to those 20 elite fodders..



Their were called the Kinkaku Force, why would there be their names if they weren't a part of the team, to fool us readers? If they weren't a part of that team, they would either have a different name or Tobirama wouldn't have mentioned the name at all. Even if they weren't a part of the team (but they were), we know nothing about the abilities of the other members, so why would you find it weird that they defeated him when even Tobirama called them highly skilled. 



> so you believe now on the power of hype?



Nope.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 19, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> Hashirama can defeat him effortlessly, with his wooden gates he can trap him and with the wooden dragon(s) he can absorb his chakra, he wouldn't even need SM to win this easily, Hashirama is on a completely different level.



was that Hashirama without effort? a battle that pushed him to use his wooden gates and dragon?

and how could he use wooden gate without entering SM? 



Authoritah said:


> I don't blame you for anything, I just can't believe that you think that nonsense is true.
> You understand that people can change their minds right?



was that about Hiruzen was said to know all Konoha jutsu?
we never know if Kishi just mean "know" in a sense Saru can recognize
what that technique is but not necessarily know how to use it.. 



Authoritah said:


> How does any of that prove that he's stronger than Hashirama or that the statements about him are true?



coz the author conveyed it thru his characters..  there were no direct statement that  said it was false.. and how can we judge what Hiruzen was really capable of
if all we have seen is just the old man where there are are witnesses who says
he declined horribly from his younger years?



Authoritah said:


> Their were called the Kinkaku Force, why would there be their names if they weren't a part of the team, to fool us readers? If they weren't a part of that team, they would either have a different name or Tobirama wouldn't have mentioned the name at all. Even if they weren't a part of the team (but they were), we know nothing about the abilities of the other members, so why would you find it weird that they defeated him when even Tobirama called them highly skilled.



then why would Kishi give titles such as GoS, strongest Kage of his generation to Hiruzen,
to fool us readers too?

and we know nothing about how strong Hiruzen in his prime , so why would you find it
weird that he can be the strongest Kage of his generation when even Tobirama
choose him to be HIS successor at that young age?


----------



## Veracity (Dec 19, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> lol it is not a Boxing belt that would stripped from one guy to the other..
> and it was never been stated to be like that..
> you've been quoted already by others too saying we have other title owner of gos..
> but still you insist No, only Hashi has it now..
> ...



Yet Hiruzen has showed how many feats that surpass Hashirama's? None. Exactly. Kishi has had a million years to showcase his abilities. He's been on the field for JUST as long as the other Edo Hokage yet has the worst showcasing. Since you want to go by the fact hat Hiruzen possesed this title far back in part 1. Then shall we count how many times he has been revered as God Of Shinobi in part 2? Yeah it's none bro. While Hashirama was revered as such. Hashirama had;

 - The power to break out of fucking Edo Tensei
-  Had a set of chapters based off of him and Madara( final villain)
-  Defeated the man that soloed 5 Kage + the strongest single Bjuii
- Is a sage himself
- Has a Kekkei Genkai that stems and correlates to the  freaking Juubi
- Not only created a barrier the same to the other Kage( but added an extra barrier on top of that.
- Has the ability to suppress Bjuii, which the entire show is basically revolved around.
- Was directly compared to Juubito( saying that because he was weaker then Obito, they were practically screwed.
- Has been constantly been giving moral support to the Kage.
- Another flashback of his Hokage times.
- chakra directly compared to Kurama himself.

So yeah fuck that Hiruzen shit. He has not done anything sense he has gotten back, and you seem to not understand his title was simply stripped. Kishi did not intend to do such, he had to to connect his plot.
I've explained this to you already, so I'll be expecting an answer now ; why is that way back in part 1 when Hashirama was revived Hirzuen said nothing about his shitty power? Why is that when he was revived at that time, nobody said anything about him being the god of Shinobi. Why is that currently in the manga only Hashirama has been called the god of Shinobi and has more manga time then Hiruzen? Maybe its because Kishi simply did not think of that back in part 1, but now has.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 19, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Try to write your own weekly released manga with such power scaling and number of relevant characters playing at the same field and see to it that every character wont contradict to its story line and we might agree that Kishi did already showcased what Hiruzen was capable of despite of his exclusive old age portrayal..



A guy Kishimoto considers a God of Shinobi would be a _very_ relevant character, don't you think? Even if he has many relevant characters on the battlefield, someone of that level of power shouldn't be sitting there like a bump on a log like Hiruzen did most of time since his revival.

I wasn't asking for much from him, but all we got was a couple Shuriken. That's inexcusable from someone with that level of hype, and it confirmed to me that said hype is no longer valid.

As for his old age, he was an Edo Tensei, meaning infinite Chakra. Even if that wasn't there, his power shouldn't go from "God of Shinobi" to "barely Kage level" with a few years of age.


----------



## Kyu (Dec 19, 2013)

*First Gen:* Hashirama
*Second Gen:* Tobirama 
*Third Gen:* Sandaime Raikage
*Fourth Gen:* Minato 
*Fifth Gen:* Tsunade 


*Of All Time:*

*1)*Hashirama Senju
*2)*Minato Namikaze
*3)*Tobirama Senju
*4)*Sandaime Raikage
*5)*Yagura~A​


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 19, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Yet Hiruzen has showed how many feats that surpass Hashirama's? None. Exactly. Kishi has had a million years to showcase his abilities. He's been on the field for JUST as long as the other Edo Hokage yet has the worst showcasing. Since you want to go by the fact hat Hiruzen possesed this title far back in part 1. Then shall we count how many times he has been revered as God Of Shinobi in part 2? Yeah it's none bro. While Hashirama was revered as such. Hashirama had;
> 
> - The power to break out of fucking Edo Tensei
> -  Had a set of chapters based off of him and Madara( final villain)
> ...




up until Kishi shows us what Hiruzen was capable of in his Prime,
its still pointless to compare what we see in Hashirama now and the old man..

there were no stripping off the title, how many times would I repeat this?
coz in that case even Sage of six paths would be stripped off too coz
he was also called god of shinobi before Kishi called Hashirama another gos..
unless you believe so6p isnt god of shinobi? 
and there were no statement that says Hashirama being the "new" and "only"..
that means Hiruzen and So6P still has that title..

you are contradicting yourself now..
look what I have posted..

my post..


redfang45 said:


> no author would intentionally let his statements contradict..



then your reply..


Likes boss said:


> Obviously Kishi does. When he first revived Tobirama and Hashirama nothing was said about them being any weaker then normal. Which pushed the notion of Hiruzen being an animal. Hiruzen HIMSELF didn't even comment on how pitiful they were back then. Which leads to the obvious conclusion that Kishi decided for them both to be stronger in part 2 and superior to Hiruzen.



then I replied..


redfang45 said:


> That's where Kishi's thoughts got fuqd up..



then you replied with..


Likes boss said:


> Kishi intended to do that on purpose.



then your latest statement..



Likes boss said:


> So yeah fuck that Hiruzen shit. He has not done anything sense he has gotten back, and you seem to not understand his title was simply stripped.*Kishi did not intend to do such*, he had to to connect his plot.
> I've explained this to you already, so I'll be expecting an answer now ; why is that way back in part 1 when Hashirama was revived Hirzuen said nothing about his shitty power? Why is that when he was revived at that time, nobody said anything about him being the god of Shinobi. Why is that currently in the manga only Hashirama has been called the god of Shinobi and has more manga time then Hiruzen? *Maybe its because Kishi simply did not think of that back in part 1, but now has*.



So what were you referring to when you said Kishi intended to do it on purpose
and suddenly now Kishi did not intend to do such? 

by the way,
Hiruzen saved the child of Prophecy from from certain death.
that was more than enough than the most of the main characters standing there..


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 19, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> A guy Kishimoto considers a God of Shinobi would be a _very_ relevant character, don't you think? Even if he has many relevant characters on the battlefield, someone of that level of power shouldn't be sitting there like a bump on a log like Hiruzen did most of time since his revival.
> 
> I wasn't asking for much from him, but all we got was a couple Shuriken. That's inexcusable from someone with that level of hype, and it confirmed to me that said hype is no longer valid.
> 
> As for his old age, he was an Edo Tensei, meaning infinite Chakra. Even if that wasn't there, his power shouldn't go from "God of Shinobi" to "barely Kage level" with a few years of age.



age does matter here..

lets make it simple..
You and Mohammad Ali..

Ali in his Prime would certainly brutally knock you out cold even though he is no immortal..

while say Ali in his old age now and he is ET or immortal, 
would you still say he is capable of knocking you out? or even landing a punch?


----------



## Veracity (Dec 19, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> up until Kishi shows us what Hiruzen was capable of in his Prime,
> its still pointless to compare what we see in Hashirama now and the old man..
> 
> there were no stripping off the title, how many times would I repeat this?
> ...



We don't need to see what he can do in his prime. He is an Edo. He has unlimited chakra , his Ninjustu should be just as powerful as in his "prime." 

Do you not understand that the So6p died hundreds of years ago? Do you also understand that Hashirama and Hirzuen were alive at the SAME time on 3 occasions. When Hiruzen was born( pretty irrelevant) When Hashirama was revived the first time, and when Hashirama was revived currently. Yet back then Hiruzen said nothing about Hashirama being weaker(because it was not thought of that the time for Kishi) and now Hashirama has been named the strongest Shinobi and Hirzuen has not even been considered recently. Not only that, but Hashirama has a lot more manga time then Hiruzen. Btw thanks for completely ignoring all the examples I posted.

You are grasping at straws now. You just nit understand what I meant. Originally Kishi did not intend for Hashirama to be so powerful. Not until part 2 did Kishi think of this. Then after he thought of such, then he intended for Hirzuen to lose all his hype. Which has happened.

Okay? Do you want a snickers bar for bringing that up? He was gone for around 7 chapters, it's about time he did something noteoworthy. BTW Minato and Tobirama saved Naruto many many times.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 19, 2013)

First Gen: Hashirama
Second Gen: Tobirama
Third Gen: 3rd Raikage
Fourth Gen: Minato
Fifth Gen: Gaara


Of All Time:

1) Hashirama Senju
2) Minato Namikaze
3) Tobirama Senju
4) Mu
5) Onoki - 3rd Raikage - Ei


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 19, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> We don't need to see what he can do in his prime. He is an Edo. He has unlimited chakra , his Ninjustu should be just as powerful as in his "prime."
> 
> Do you not understand that the So6p died hundreds of years ago? Do you also understand that Hashirama and Hirzuen were alive at the SAME time on 3 occasions. When Hiruzen was born( pretty irrelevant) When Hashirama was revived the first time, and when Hashirama was revived currently. Yet back then Hiruzen said nothing about Hashirama being weaker(because it was not thought of that the time for Kishi) and now Hashirama has been named the strongest Shinobi and Hirzuen has not even been considered recently. Not only that, but Hashirama has a lot more manga time then Hiruzen. Btw thanks for completely ignoring all the examples I posted.
> 
> ...



 insisting an ET of an old man could cast same scale jutsu when he was at his prime..
ET only has unlimited replenishment.. not inifinite chakra.. 
whats the point of making Madara young again if you insist age
does not matter here? 

don't you understand that it is pointless comparing a well bodied Hashirama
to a kid and an old man? 

they lived at the same time? yes indeed.. were they worth comparable
at that period of time? hell NO.
how could you compare this kid Hiruzen and Hashirama? 


Let Kishi show us this Hiruzen

and we could talk about those Hashirama jutsus and who really has the upperhand..



Likes boss said:


> He has not done anything sense he has gotten back



I was just answering this statement of yours and you are just clearly wrong with that one.
and your response was Minato and Tobirama saved Naruto many many times..lol


----------



## Dominus (Dec 19, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> was that Hashirama without effort? a battle that pushed him to use his wooden gates and dragon?



Excuse me for thinking that using two techniques and defeating him in seconds literally without breaking a sweat is an easy victory.

Hashirama > EMS Madara w/ Kurama > EMS Madara > EMS Madara not fighting seriously > Muu and Onoki > the Third Raikage.
So yeah, he can do it easily.



> and how could he use wooden gate without entering SM?


 
Both before and after he used those gates to restrain Madara he wasn't in SM and you can also see by the size of the gates that he can do it without SM. The ones he used in SM are much bigger.



> was that about Hiruzen was said to know all Konoha jutsu?
> we never know if Kishi just mean "know" in a sense Saru can recognize
> what that technique is but not necessarily know how to use it..



Orochimaru said that he knows and is able to use all the jutsu that exist in Konoha.
That is simply laughable.



> then why would Kishi give titles such as GoS, strongest Kage of his generation to Hiruzen,
> to fool us readers too?



Like I've said, he could've changed his mind. I don't remember there being any statements about how great he was in Part II, however there are statements about Hashirama's greatness.



> coz the author conveyed it thru his characters..  there were no direct statement that  said it was false.. and how can we judge what Hiruzen was really capable of
> if all we have seen is just the old man where there are are witnesses who says
> he declined horribly from his younger years?
> 
> ...



It doesn't make sense that old Hiruzen is so weak, Onoki and Danzou are stronger than him, but they are also very old. I understand that some people age differently, but _that_ differently...


----------



## Trojan (Dec 19, 2013)

> Hashirama > EMS Madara w/ Kurama > EMS Madara > EMS Madara not fighting seriously > Muu and Onoki > the Third Raikage.
> So yeah, he can do it easily.



12 years old Naruto with clones > 12 years old Naruto with sexy jutsu > old Hiruzen > Oro with Hashi & Tobi > Oro without ET.

Thus, 12 years old Naruto > oro?


----------



## Dominus (Dec 19, 2013)

Elia said:


> 12 years old Naruto with clones > 12 years old Naruto with sexy jutsu > old Hiruzen > Oro with Hashi & Tobi > Oro without ET.
> 
> Thus, 12 years old Naruto > oro?



I'm comparing real fighting.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 19, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> I'm comparing real fighting.



Shika > Temari > CS2 Tayuya > CS1 Tayuya > base Tayuya > itachi

Shika > Itachi?


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 19, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> Excuse me for thinking that using two techniques and defeating him in seconds literally without breaking a sweat is an easy victory.
> 
> Hashirama > EMS Madara w/ Kurama > EMS Madara > EMS Madara not fighting seriously > Muu and Onoki > the Third Raikage.
> So yeah, he can do it easily.



in seconds? dat exaggeration.. If Hashirama was that really overpowered,
other nations should have been easily controlled since his reign,
but no, he still seeked diplomacy and respects other Kage.. 



Authoritah said:


> Both before and after he used those gates to restrain Madara he wasn't in SM and you can also see by the size of the gates that he can do it without SM. The ones he used in SM are much bigger.



name me the jutsu then.. that wooden gate your are referring to.. 



Authoritah said:


> Orochimaru said that he knows and is able to use all the jutsu that exist in Konoha.
> That is simply laughable.



It depends really upon the reader, if you are to see it as plothole,
yeah and it will be, but if you use your creative minds, it would still fit no matter what..



Authoritah said:


> Like I've said, he could've changed his mind. I don't remember there being any statements about how great he was in Part II, however there are statements about Hashirama's greatness.



its plot relevance that's playing..
I would agree if he really changed his mind if we are shown a prime Hiruzen
still with mediocre abilities inspite of his reputation and titles plus having one of the
highest databok stats.. but up until now, no showing of the gap of prime Hiruzen
and old Hiruzen.. its no big deal for me if Hashirama turns out to be still >  Hiruzen
even after the time finally Kishi show us a prime Hiruzen.. I am for the truth..



Authoritah said:


> It doesn't make sense that old Hiruzen is so weak, Onoki and Danzou are stronger than him, but they are also very old. I understand that some people age differently, but _that_ differently...



yes it does make sense, Orochimaru waited to attack Konoha when Hiruzen already in retirement..
Enma said Hiruzen was terriblly different from his Prime..
Hiruzen has a different body from others, different bodies responds differently
on aging process.. and Oonoki is a wizard, Hiruzen is a brawler.. 
In boxing brawlers tend to suffer in old age than those slick types..
while we know Danzo had senju procedures just to fulfill his ambition
catching up with Hiruzen..


----------



## Dominus (Dec 19, 2013)

Elia said:


> Shika > Temari > CS2 Tayuya > CS1 Tayuya > base Tayuya > itachi
> 
> Shika > Itachi?



You're being ridiculous, I'm not going to waste my time on this.


----------



## Dominus (Dec 19, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> in seconds? dat exaggeration.. If Hashirama was that really overpowered,



It doesn't take much longer to use two techniques in a row.



> other nations should have been easily controlled since his reign,
> but no, he still seeked diplomacy and respects other Kage..



I don't see your point here.



> name me the jutsu then.. that wooden gate your are referring to..


 
You do realize that there are techniques such as Ōdama Rasengan and Senpō: Ōdama Rasengan, so there is Myōjinmon and Senpō: Myōjinmon.



> It depends really upon the reader, if you are to see it as plothole,
> yeah and it will be, but if you use your creative minds, it would still fit no matter what..



I'm pretty sure only an idiot would believe that statement is true.



> its plot relevance that's playing..
> I would agree if he really changed his mind if we are shown a prime Hiruzen
> still with mediocre abilities inspite of his reputation and titles plus having one of the
> highest databok stats.. but up until now, no showing of the gap of prime Hiruzen
> ...



It doesn't make sense to me, it makes sense to you. 


I'm out.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 19, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> You're being ridiculous, I'm not going to waste my time on this.



On other wards, if it has Hashi or madara is just perfectly fine. However, if it were about other
characters even if it did happen in the manga is just ridiculous. 

Ok, if that's what you want.


----------



## Dominus (Dec 19, 2013)

Elia said:


> On other wards, if it has Hashi or madara is just perfectly fine. However, if it were about other
> characters even if it did happen in the manga is just ridiculous.
> 
> Ok, if that's what you want.



I don't even like Hashirama.
I wonder whether you're just trolling or an idiot... or both.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 19, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> I don't even like Hashirama.
> I wonder whether you're just trolling or an idiot... or both.



you don't?

O.K, seems I have to spell it out to you. Basically, the logic you used is simply retarded. Extremely
retarded as a matter of fact. 

For ones, Onoki was just a kid at that time. Second, Onoki's and Mu's fighting style is COMPLETELY different from the 3rd Raikage, there is no single similarities between the two of them. By that logic, we can say the 3rd tied with the 8tails, and the 8tails is Bijuu, and since madara
said his Ps is just rival the Bijuu's power, than the 3rd is superior or as powerful as madara!

I agree, that madara is stronger than the 3rd, but the defeat of kid onoki and Mu has nothing to do
with the 3rd and his fighting style.


----------



## Dominus (Dec 19, 2013)

Elia said:


> you don't?
> 
> O.K, seems I have to spell it out to you. Basically, the logic you used is simply retarded. Extremely
> retarded as a matter of fact.
> ...



Muu, the Second Mizukage and the Third Raikage were portrayed as shinobi of the same level (not necessarily all equal). Madara and Hashirama are on a completely different level. So saying that Madara can defeat the Third because he defeated those two easily isn't that illogical. Weren't you the one who always said that Tobirama can't beat strong enemies because he lost to the Kinkaku Force, but now you're saying that logic is wrong.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 19, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> Muu, the Second Mizukage and the Third Raikage were portrayed as shinobi of the same level (not necessarily all equal). Madara and Hashirama are on a completely different level. So saying that Madara can defeat the Third because he defeated those two easily isn't that illogical. Weren't you the one who always said that Tobirama can't beat strong enemies because he lost to the Kinkaku Force, but now you're saying that logic is wrong.



Again, I agree that madara is stronger than them. 
but the 3rd has the strongest shield and an attack that break anything. His stamina is far superior
to that of kid onoki and Mu, and so is his speed. 

How on God's earth is madara going to defeat him with his normal arsenal or even V3 Susanoo?

- First of all, I said I don't see why people think he can't lose against Jman when he lost against
weaker foes. Second, which is the different, I am not saying the 3rd will win here either. 

anyway, forgot about it, I started to have a headache.


----------



## Blazing Archer (Dec 19, 2013)

1)Hashirama
2)Tobirama
3)Hiruzen Sarutobi
4)Minato Namikaze
5)Tsunade.

Yep,Kabuto was right,Konoha always has the best leaders.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 19, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> age does matter here..
> 
> lets make it simple..
> You and Mohammad Ali..
> ...



I can say without a doubt that any form of Mohammad Ali would beat the everlivin' shit out of me.

Even if he couldn't, this comparison doesn't really apply with Naruto. Ōnoki especially contradicts this statement, as he is an old timer who is still incredibly strong and is a contender for the strongest of the current Kage. And, if you have a body that never runs out of stamina, chakra and cannot give in by normal means, it should also negate most of the old age factoring in.  So, Hiruzen's power should not be that low, especially considering he is supposed to be above Hashirama going by his hype. It seems silly to me that we haven't seen one absolutely amazing Jutsu from Hiruzen yet if he is supposed to be stronger than Shodai, who could level an entire battlefield with ease.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 20, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> I can say without a doubt that any form of Mohammad Ali would beat the everlivin' shit out of me.
> 
> Even if he couldn't, this comparison doesn't really apply with Naruto. Ōnoki especially contradicts this statement, as he is an old timer who is still incredibly strong and is a contender for the strongest of the current Kage. And, if you have a body that never runs out of stamina, chakra and cannot give in by normal means, it should also negate most of the old age factoring in.  So, Hiruzen's power should not be that low, especially considering he is supposed to be above Hashirama going by his hype. It seems silly to me that we haven't seen one absolutely amazing Jutsu from Hiruzen yet if he is supposed to be stronger than Shodai, who could level an entire battlefield with ease.



lol not me.. you dont seem to have any idea how Ali had deteriorated from being the GOAT of boxing
and in his old age now.. and why not? they arent gods, they die too..

your argument doesn't hold much value.. different people respond to old age.. it is that simple..
that is why there is so called "retirement".. Hiruzen retired, while Onoki continued his service..


----------



## Veracity (Dec 20, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Hiruzen is mainly a brawl type, how could he effin swing Enma at full speed and strength
> if his body, muscles, bones, ligaments are not the same?
> 30 year old base ball player vs a near 70 old man swinging a bat?
> do you see the difference?
> ...



Lol Hirzuen is mainly a brawl type? That's cute. How would you even know what type of fighter he is, if he was one solid fight in the manga? Hirzuen was know for the amount of Justu he possessed. Nothing was said about him being a "brawler " type.  

I never said anything about him swinging Enma, just that all his elemental Justu should be exactly the same as in his prime. He just should not be able to use he as much without exhausting his chakra supply. Which means as an EDO, the scale of his Justu should be the same.

True a 70 year old could swing faster then a 30 year old, but you are under the impression that a 70 year old would be like a 100 times skiwear and less reflexive than a 30 year old. That's false.

That's a poor excuse. Hirzuen could have aged even less then Onnoki and just could have been that weak to begin with. Listing examples of other ninja is just a way to show that your judgement is piss poor. Hirzuen was weakened by age indeed, but nearly as much as you are making it seem.

I agreed with you that Hirzuen was less reflexive and slower at his age. But not by some astronomical amount. Btw Madara was a fossil at the time of his death. He was likely more then double the age of Hiruzen and it's doubtful if he could even cast a single Katon of disabled from the Gedo Mazo.

Tsunade allows herself to look likes she younger. Her physical health really just comes from the fact that's she's a Senju/Uzumaki, so I'll give you her as an excuse. Jirayia on the other hand? Yeah there's really nothing you can say other then the fact that you are over exaggerating Hirzuens age.

 We both know Hashirama was arguably weaker then that. He went from being around Hirzuens speed to doing this; *as an edo*
*as an edo*
*as an edo*
Don't even bullshit yourself and say he was even a 20/20 of his actual power.


Also saying Hiruzens power has Completley split in half just because of his age is honestly laughable. But you know, let's say he was at 30% LOL. 

Do you honestly think 3 of the Hiruzens that fought Oro, could beat Full powered Hashirama that defeated Madara + Kurama? 

I've already told you, a prime Hirzuen won't come close to Hashirama. If old Hirzuen is more then 10x weaker then Current Hashirama, then prime Hirzuen will not do anything.


----------



## Van Konzen (Dec 22, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Lol Hirzuen is mainly a brawl type? That's cute. How would you even know what type of fighter he is, if he was one solid fight in the manga? Hirzuen was know for the amount of Justu he possessed. Nothing was said about him being a "brawler " type.
> 
> I never said anything about him swinging Enma, just that all his elemental Justu should be exactly the same as in his prime. He just should not be able to use he as much without exhausting his chakra supply. Which means as an EDO, the scale of his Justu should be the same.
> 
> ...



his ultimate fighting stance is him with Enma.. and that is a brawl type..
evidenced by Oro shitting his pants when Hiruzen summoned Enma..

I wont insist anymore in effin explaining that Edos dont have infinite chakra..
coz its a wate of effort and time for those who cant get it.. smh

and its useless debating with you when all you consider is  comparing is an old Hiruzen
and a Prime Hashirama.. im effin wasting my time on you kid...

I hate repeating myself, but for the nth time, all im asking
is for Kishi to showcase a Prime Hiruzen to see if old man Hiruzen was really terrible
compared to his prime time era and if he really stands a chance being > Hashirama..
and I HAVE NO EFFIN PROBLEM conceding that Prime Hiruzen wont do shit against Hashirama
if Kishi really shows us what Hiruzen was really made of..


----------



## Veracity (Dec 22, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> his ultimate fighting stance is him with Enma.. and that is a brawl type..
> evidenced by Oro shitting his pants when Hiruzen summoned Enma..
> 
> I wont insist anymore in effin explaining that Edos dont have infinite chakra..
> ...



Also added on to the fact that he was known as the fucking "professor" in which he was known to know every Justu in the leaf. Ya think a brawler type knows over one thousand Justu? Better yet, you think a a ninja with over a thousand Justu would restrict himself to CQC attacks? 

I KNOW HOW EDOS WORK. I've explained to you that the scale of Hiruzens Justu probabaly was not much different from in his prime. When we was old he complained mostly about the amount of chakra he had, meaning as an Edo he should be just fine. BTW, if Kimmi was revived perfectly healthy, then what's different for Hiruzen ?

Im not comparing Old Hirzuen vs Prime Hashirama. I even decided to compared 10 FUCKING Hiruzens vs a prime Hashirama. You cannot sit here and tell me with a straight face that Hirzuens power was divided by 10 just because of his old age, when people older then him and people nearly his age( Onoki and Jirayia) that age barely affected.


Don't ya think if Kishi gave a shit about Hirzuen he would show some of his flashbacks? Huh ? No but instead he decided to view 5+ chapters based on entirely on the rivalry of Madara and Hashirama. Seems to me like Hashirama is the new god is Shinobi considering a huge part of the new chapters have him playing a huge role.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 22, 2013)

Hiruzen's probably the second or third smartest character in the manga.

He's canonically as wise as 7-year-old Itachi.


----------



## LeafShinobi (Dec 29, 2013)

1Hashirama
2Mu
3Third Raikage
4Yagura
5Gaara


----------



## Deleted member 175252 (Dec 29, 2013)

1st Gen: Hashirama (by such a huge distance)
2nd Gen: Tobirama or Muu (Honestly, I tie them both as both are exceptional)
3rd Gen: Sandaime Raikage (Onoki very close 2nd)
4th Gen: (Minato easily)

Overall:

Hashirama
Minato 
Tobirama/Muu/Sandaime Raikage
A/Onoki/3rd Kazekage/Trollkage

The rest...


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 29, 2013)

1st Gen: Hashirama, duh!
2nd Gen: Tobirama
3rd Gen: Oonoki
4th Gen: Minato

Overall:

Hashirama
Tobirama
Minato (not counting KCM since he did not have it as a hokage)
Trollkage / Muu

The rest...


----------



## Matty (Mar 20, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> What are the overall strongest kages in each generation,, this is my opinion
> 1st Generation: Hashirama Senju
> 2nd Generation: Tobirama Senju
> 3rd Generation: Third Raikage
> ...



1st- Hashirama
2nd- Is a tie for me with Tobi/Muu/Gengetsu
3rd- Raikage/Kazekage
4th- Minato and its not close
5th- Gaara


Top Kage

Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Mu/Gengetsu
Onoki
Sandaime Raikage
A
Sandaime Kazekage
Tsunade
Gaara
Rasa


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 20, 2016)

Messing with the dead again.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 20, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> What are the overall strongest kages in each generation,, this is my opinion
> 1st Generation: Hashirama Senju
> 2nd Generation: Tobirama Senju
> 3rd Generation: Third Raikage
> ...



Was Hirusen the strongest Kage in 3rd generation?

Can Gaara beat Ei when there is 15-10 meters distance between them? What will he do against Onoki's Jinton and weighting technique?


----------



## Saru (Mar 20, 2016)

*Shodai:* Hashirama
*Nidaime:* Tobirama
*Sandaime:* Hiruzen
*Yondaime:* Minato
*Godaime:* Tsunade

Notice a trend? 

The overall strongest list is the same, but it's hard to say who's stronger between Tsunade, Hiruzen, and Ohnoki. One gotta go.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 20, 2016)

Saru said:


> *Shodai:* Hashirama
> *Nidaime:* Tobirama
> *Sandaime:* Hiruzen
> *Yondaime:* Minato
> ...



Ei sh*ts on Tsunade, Onoki sh*ts on Tsunade, Gaara probably sh*ts on her too. Mei's acid mist can melt her. She will regenerate, of course, but she will spend lots of chakra on regenerating and eventually, she dies.


----------



## Saru (Mar 20, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Ei sh*ts on Tsunade, Onoki sh*ts on Tsunade, Gaara probably sh*ts on her too. Mei's acid mist can melt her. She will regenerate, of course, but she will spend lots of chakra on regenerating and eventually, she dies.




Can A boost Ohnoki's Jinton to almost PS levels, though? Can Gaara? Can Mei?

Not sure why you consider power to be the only measure of battle strength, or why you think some of the Kage are so much stronger than Tsunade--or even stronger than her at all.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 20, 2016)

Saru said:


> Can A boost Ohnoki's Jinton to almost PS levels, though? Can Gaara? Can Mei?
> 
> Not sure why you consider power to be the only measure of battle strength, or why you think some of the Kage are so much stronger than Tsunade--or even stronger than her at all.



Because that's what has been show in the manga. Tsunade cant do anything against Jinton, can be sealed by Gaara and can be speedblitzed by Ei. She is not the strongest Kage of 5-th generation.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 20, 2016)

Damn Matty with his bringing back threads that's years old though after a few years my opinion barely changed though I do see every Hokage taking the strongest Kage of their generation more or less


----------



## fyhb (Mar 20, 2016)

1st: Hashirama
2nd: Tobirama
3rd: Ei 3>= Ohnoki
4th: Minato
5th: Tsunade


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## Saru (Mar 20, 2016)

Hiruzen did have the reputation of being the strongest Kage, though.



So apparently Sandaime Raikage's old war story of being the "Strongest Shield" didn't stack up to Old Hiruzen's rep.



StarWanderer said:


> Because that's what has been show in the manga. Tsunade cant do anything against Jinton, can be sealed by Gaara and can be speedblitzed by Ei. She is not the strongest Kage of 5-th generation.




Well, that's a title that she would be competing with Mei and Gaara for if I understand the OP correctly, and I believe that Tsunade is superior to both of those Kage overall.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 20, 2016)

Saru said:


> Hiruzen did have the reputation of being the strongest Kage, though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What she's gonna do against Gaara's sand sealing? What she's gonna do against Onoki's Jinton? Or Ei's speed?

She is not the strongest Kage of her generation.


----------



## Lord Trollbias (Mar 20, 2016)

1st: Hashirama>>>?Rest
2nd: Tobirama>Muu=Gengetsu>>?Rest
3rd: Hiruzen (Hype)>Oonoki>=Ei>3rd Kazekage>Hiruzen (Feats)>?3rd Mizukage
4th: Minato>Yagura>Ei>Rasa>>Kurotsuchi
5th: Gaara>=<Tsunade>Mei>=<Darui
6th: Danzo>>Kakashi (As Hokage)>>Choujuro
7th: Naruto gg


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## ARGUS (Mar 20, 2016)

Who revived this? Lol this thread is 3 yrs old 



StarWanderer said:


> Was Hirusen the strongest Kage in 3rd generation?


All we have is a statement from Kabuto and iruka 
When we look at feats, then third Raikage dumps on him 



> Can Gaara beat Ei when there is 15-10 meters distance between them?


God no. He gets blitzed and then Raiton chop gets through him 



> What will he do against Onoki's Jinton and weighting technique?


not much, he can stop Jinton by attacking Onoki constantly but then weighted Boulder shuts his sand and it's GG 
Bad match up tbh


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 20, 2016)

1st gen Kage = Hashirama
2nd gen Kage = Tobirama (Muu and Gengetsu)
3rd gen Kage = Hiruzen (Oonoki is the 3rd tsuchikage, Ai)
4th gen Kage = Minato (Yagura, Ai is the 4th raikage, Kurotsuchi)
5th gen Kage = Tsunade (Mei, Gaara and Darui)
6th gen Kage = Kakashi (Chojuro)
7th gen Kage = Naruto



> When we look at feats, then third Raikage dumps on him



Not really, Third's best on panel feat is surviving FRS, We have a feat via statement of him surviving a BB, that's it.

Hiruzen was severely limited as an edo we didn't see him use enma and Unlike the other Kage he is way out of his prime.
But he did have a feat of using multiple elemental Jutsu that can encompass a whole Bijuu.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 20, 2016)

> All we have is a statement from Kabuto and iruka
> When we look at feats, then third Raikage dumps on him



Statement, made by Kishimoto himself. We dont know how powerful The Third was in his prime. Of course, he wasnt the strongest Hokage ever prior to Naruto, mainly due to Dan's words (written by Kishimoto himself, too), but hey - Iruka's and Kabuto's words havent been retconned.



> God no. He gets blitzed and then Raiton chop gets through him



With that, we agree. Good.



> not much, he can stop Jinton by attacking Onoki constantly but then weighted Boulder shuts his sand and it's GG
> Bad match up tbh



Nice. It seems you've changed your opinion over 3 years. 



> 5th gen Kage = Tsunade (Mei, Gaara and Darui)



You put Tsunade against Ei - she gets decapitated. You put Tsunade against Onoki - she gets vaporised. You put Tsunade against Gaara - she gets sealed. Mei also has a chance, with her acid mist, because Tsunade cant regenerate forever, and that mist will melt her down fast, judging from how it could melt MS Sasuke's Susanoo ribs.


----------



## Saru (Mar 20, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> What she's gonna do against Gaara's sand sealing? What she's gonna do against Onoki's Jinton? Or Ei's speed?
> 
> She is not the strongest Kage of her generation.




I think you missed the point I was trying to get across. Power is not Tsunade's only forte. Her support game is rivaled by few, and I consider that a form of battle strength. If you disagree with that viewpoint, that's fine. 

As for A's speed, Tsunade can take anything that A dishes out, and Tsunade can defeat A by camping in Katsuyu. A can't defeat Katsuyu. So that's one way for Tsunade to win.

Gaara's gourd sand can be muscled through, and if Tsunade can end the match quickly against Gaara, she can win. The longer the match goes on, the worse Tsunade's chances against Gaara get. Gaara may not be able to kill Katsuyu either if Chibaku Tensei and Naruto's corrosive Kyuubi Transformations could not.

Ohnoki is simply a bad match up for Tsunade, and Ohnoki himself is quite strong.​


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 20, 2016)

> You put Tsunade against Gaara - she gets sealed. Mei also has a chance, with her acid mist, because Tsunade cant regenerate forever, and that mist will melt her down fast, judging from how it could melt MS Sasuke's Susanoo ribs.



5% katsuyu is part of Tsunade's arsenal lets not forget that.




> Ohnoki is simply a bad match up for Tsunade.



Jinton was never implied to be stronger than CST.





> She is not the strongest Kage of her generation.



ohnoki and Ai isn't part of her generation.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 21, 2016)

I've always stated the further you get from the leaf the weaker the ninja become


All of the Hokage at their respective tenures were the strongest Kage in the Narutoverse


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## StarWanderer (Mar 21, 2016)

> As for A's speed, Tsunade can take anything that A dishes out, and Tsunade can defeat A by camping in Katsuyu. A can't defeat Katsuyu. So that's one way for Tsunade to win.



She is not durable enough to withstand Ei's chop, which was good enough to break Sasuke's ribcage Susanoo, cut off Hachibi's horn and cut off Ei's own arm. If the distance between them is 10-15 meters, he speedblitz her before she can summon Katsuyu and camp inside of her. 



> Gaara's gourd sand can be muscled through, and if Tsunade can end the match quickly against Gaara, she can win. The longer the match goes on, the worse Tsunade's chances against Gaara get. Gaara may not be able to kill Katsuyu either if Chibaku Tensei and Naruto's corrosive Kyuubi Transformations could not.



What about sealing both tsunade and Katsuyu? What about sealing Tsunade before she can summon Katsuyu? Do you have a proof Tsunade can break through his gourd sand? 



> Ohnoki is simply a bad match up for Tsunade, and Ohnoki himself is quite strong.



Yeah - stronger than Tsunade.



> 5% katsuyu is part of Tsunade's arsenal lets not forget that.



I'd like to see how she summons her while being melted, or being sealed by gourd sand.



> Jinton was never implied to be stronger than CST.



Jinton demolished Madara's V3 legged Susanoos. Katsuyu gets eradicated along with Tsunade. She can not protect herself against Kekkei Tota's desintegration.


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## shade0180 (Mar 21, 2016)

> What about sealing both tsunade and Katsuyu? What about sealing Tsunade before she can summon Katsuyu? Do you have a proof Tsunade can break through his gourd sand?



Do you have proof Gaara can seal 80,000+ beings at once.





> I'd like to see how she summons her while being melted, or being sealed by gourd sand.



The mist isn't instant it needs to travel through the air.

the gourd sand has no feat of sealing multiple characters instantly
Specially an amount and Size equal to 5% katsuyu.





> Jinton demolished Madara's V3 legged Susanoos. Katsuyu gets eradicated along with Tsunade


That doesn't prove anything. It just shows that Susanoo v3 is weaker than Jinton.

CST is stronger than Jinton which Katsuyu tanked literally

Jinton isn't scratching Katsuyu


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## StarWanderer (Mar 21, 2016)

> Do you have proof Gaara can seal 80,000+ beings at once.



Before Gaara tries, she needs to summon her.



> The mist isn't instant it needs to travel through the air.
> 
> the gourd sand has no feat of sealing multiple characters instantly
> Specially an amount and Size equal to 5% katsuyu.



However it can seal Tsunade with no problem.



> That doesn't prove anything. It just shows that Susanoo v3 is weaker than Jinton.
> 
> CST is stronger than Jinton which Katsuyu tanked literally
> 
> Jinton isn't scratching Katsuyu



1. There is a difference between gravitational attack and Kekkei Tota, which vaporises materials on a molecular level and is the highest form of Nature Transformation, except Gudoudama. 
2. Databook says hi. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Jinton

Wind, Earth, Fire, combining three natures for a moment is a "kekkai touta" ninjutsu. With both hands a large amount of chakra is charged and it's form is changed into a cube, cone, cylinder, various three dimensional objects (so it can be more than the ones we saw), and than it's released. Onoki, Mu's disciple, inherited Jinton. If it touches the target they are disintegrated at the molecular-level, defense with any ninja implement or ninjutsu is impossible. A certain death hit.

Enemy or ally, a touch results in disintegration, and so on, rest seems like the same

large scale


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## Saru (Mar 21, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> She is not durable enough to withstand Ei's chop, which was good enough to break Sasuke's ribcage Susanoo, cut off Hachibi's horn and cut off Ei's own arm. If the distance between them is 10-15 meters, he speedblitz her before she can summon Katsuyu and camp inside of her.




A is not fast enough enough to blitz Tsunade from 15 meters with his regular speed. From that distance she has a few options.


Summon Katsuyu. A is not chopping Tsunade before she can do this. A has to first activate Raiton Chakra Mode, then come at Tsunade (or do some combination of the two). Tsunade, having fought alongside A at least once, is already familiar with A's speed. Tsunade is also highly intelligent. She will not hesitate to immediately use her Boss Summon which is stated to be impervious to physical attacks if she feels that she is at a life-threatening disadvantage against A's speed.
Ground pound. A is not reaching Tsunade from 15 meters before she can touch the ground. This creates space and gives Tsunade time to think about her next step.




> What about sealing both tsunade and Katsuyu? What about sealing Tsunade before she can summon Katsuyu? Do you have a proof Tsunade can break through his gourd sand?




Tsunade can backhand or otherwise brush off Gaara's Gourd Sand with her strength that is potent enough to smash Susano'o ribcages and punch V3 Susano'o giants into the ground like toys. Gaara's gourd doesn't carry enough sand to seal 5% Katsuyu. 
​


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## Garcher (Mar 21, 2016)

the answer is Itachi


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## shade0180 (Mar 21, 2016)

> If it touches the target they are disintegrated at the molecular-level, defense with any ninja implement or ninjutsu is impossible. A certain death hit.



It is a certain death hit to normal humans, which nardo characters isn't and it isn't hax. 

Physics says hi.


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> A is not fast enough to blitz Tsunade from 15 meters with his regular speed [...] Summon Katsuyu. A is not chopping Tsunade before she can do this. [...] A is not reaching Tsunade from 15 meters before she can touch the ground.



You keep asserting things you have no way of proving.


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## shade0180 (Mar 21, 2016)

A is not strong enough to one shot any named Kage.

He might be fast enough to throw the first punch but that won't insta-kill Them.


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## fyhb (Mar 21, 2016)

Hmm I wonder what will happen if Jinton touches Tsunade,Hashirama,Madara,Tobirama,A3,A4 and many others directly no clones or kawarimi!? Yup they are death,you can't regenerate from nothingness and you can't block it. Your best bet is to avoiding it,but if you fail you are done.

And A not being able to blitz Tsunade from 15 meters is ridiculous to me. Katsuyu can't Tank Jinton if it is big enough or if it hits where Tsunade is and Dismantle her and part if Katsuyu too.


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## shade0180 (Mar 21, 2016)

> nothingness and you can't block it.



Good thing disintegration doesn't turn you into nothing. only degrades object it hits..

Regen is a perfect counter for disintegration. because it renew and recreate cells.


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## Saru (Mar 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You keep asserting things you have no way of proving.




The fact that Jugo reacted to A's Body Flicker from a similar distance and was able to put up a guard at the last minute is frankly more than enough evidence to suggest that Tsunade can summon Katsuyu or punch the ground in a similar time frame. 

Claiming that Tsunade would get blitzed and killed when A failed to accomplish something similar against a less experienced, less aware opponent in Jugo is a more outlandish claim.

 A doesn't magically start off with Raiton Chakra Mode activated either; he has to activate it. What that means is that when A first moves to strike Tsunade, his speed will either be a blend of his non-RCM speed and his RCM speed, or his speed will be increased _after_ he amps up his Raiton shroud. Either scenario gives Tsunade even more time to react than Jugo had.​


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## StarWanderer (Mar 21, 2016)

> A is not fast enough enough to blitz Tsunade from 15 meters with his regular speed. From that distance she has a few options.
> Summon Katsuyu. A is not chopping Tsunade before she can do this. A has to first activate Raiton Chakra Mode, then come at Tsunade (or do some combination of the two). Tsunade, having fought alongside A at least once, is already familiar with A's speed. Tsunade is also highly intelligent. She will not hesitate to immediately use her Boss Summon which is stated to be impervious to physical attacks if she feels that she is at a life-threatening disadvantage against A's speed.
> Ground pound. A is not reaching Tsunade from 15 meters before she can touch the ground. This creates space and gives Tsunade time to think about her next step.



He wont use his regular speed against the best medic in the world who also happens to be a legendary Sannin. He used V2 against Minato from the start. it is in his character to use his top speed against powerful opponents. V2 comes out. And we saw in the manga what she can do against V2 - nothing.



Tsunade gets speedblitzed.



> Tsunade can backhand or otherwise brush off Gaara's Gourd Sand with her strength that is potent enough to smash Susano'o ribcages and punch V3 Susano'o giants into the ground like toys. Gaara's gourd doesn't carry enough sand to seal 5% Katsuyu.



She brushes off his sand - it will come to her again. Brushes off - come again. She wont get rid of the sand and will get sealed eventually. 



> It is a certain death hit to normal humans, which nardo characters isn't and it isn't hax.



Defence with any ninja implement or ninjutsu is impossible.

Plus, Jinton =/= Shinra tensei. Katsuyu has no feats to suggest she can withstand vaporising Kekkei Tota. 



> A is not strong enough to one shot any named Kage.
> 
> He might be fast enough to throw the first punch but that won't insta-kill Them.



LOL what? 

Dude, one chop and any of them dies. Tsunade will get decapitated, just like the other Kage.


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## shade0180 (Mar 21, 2016)

> Dude, one chop and any of them dies. Tsunade will get decapitated, just like the other Kage.



Keep wanking





> Plus, Jinton =/= Shinra tensei. Katsuyu has no feats to suggest she can withstand vaporising Kekkei Tota.



vaporizing is weaker than disintegration.

vaporizing is turning a matter's state into gas
at least disintegration attacks molecular bonds.

You can change the term you are using it won't change that Katsuyu is superior to it.


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## fyhb (Mar 21, 2016)

I use nothingness as a word expression,because we haven't seen a  Character to Regenerate from being a Molecule or I am wrong!?

A not being able to cut off Tsunade Head form 15 is just ridiculous in my eyes.


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## shade0180 (Mar 21, 2016)

> because we haven't seen a Character to Regenerate from being a Molecule or I am wrong!?



we have seen character renew their body parts through regeneration.

Also disintegration don't turn you into molecule. it hits molecular bonds then degrade it. which can be counter by regeneration because regen renew and recreate degraded cells.


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## Saru (Mar 21, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> V2 comes out.




In which case Tsunade still has more time to react than Jugo did, because A needs to amp up his Raiton Chakra Mode to bijuu levels to use V2. That time frame is roughly equal to the amount of time that it takes for Sasuke to charge Amaterasu or for Minato to throw kunai all over a given battlefield. Tsunade can certainly move her hands and touch the ground in that time frame.





> And we saw in the manga what she can do against V2 - nothing.




Tsunade wasn't fighting A herself, and any damage that A could have done to Naruto would have easily been healed by her medical ninjutsu, so she was reasonably in control of the situation. Especially with Killer B supporting her. Tsunade and Killer B *>>* Yondaime Raikage.​


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## fyhb (Mar 21, 2016)

I want to see Tsunade Regenerate her Head or Heart hmmm or if her whole Body gots Jinton-ed ....


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## shade0180 (Mar 21, 2016)

> I want to see Tsunade Regenerate her Head or Heart hmmm or if her whole Body gots Jinton-ed



I want to see jinton remove a kage level head instantly first.



Durability increases with strength. Jinton turning a floor into dust doesn't mean it can easily penetrate a fictional superhuman skin when the superhuman skin can be as strong as any hard object, skin being stronger than metal just for example).


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## StarWanderer (Mar 21, 2016)

> Keep wanking



Wanking, eh?

Would you like to bring here some of the best durability feats among Kage? 



> In which case Tsunade still has more time to react than Jugo did, because A needs to amp up his Raiton Chakra Mode to bijuu levels to use V2. That time frame is roughly equal to the amount of time that it takes for Sasuke to charge Amaterasu or for Minato to throw kunai all over a given battlefield. Tsunade can certainly move her hands and touch the ground in that time frame.



I highly doubt she will be fast enough to touch the ground before Ei decapitates her. She may be able to use Byakugou, but summon? Highly doubt about that.



> Tsunade wasn't fighting A herself, and any damage that A could have done to Naruto would have easily been healed by her medical ninjutsu, so she was reasonably in control of the situation. Especially with Killer B supporting her. Tsunade and Killer B >> Yondaime Raikage.



Dude, she said that  this time, she is fighting as well. And she did absolutely nothing after those words. She couldnt react, at all.



> vaporizing is weaker than disintegration.
> 
> vaporizing is turning a matter's state into gas
> at least disintegration attacks molecular bonds.
> ...



Why it wont? Katsuyu simply doesnt have feats to say she will be able to withstand such an attack. ST is a completely different attack. It is not a near-molekular  disintegration by Kekkei Tota, the highest level of Nature Transformation except Gudoudama. There is no proof she can survive that. Oh, and why do you think ST > Jinton? Any proof? 

Plus, we have a Databook statement.


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2016)

Raikage didn't use V2 against MS Sasuke, whom he thought killed his brother. Why is he using it against Tsunade from the start?


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## fyhb (Mar 21, 2016)

You suggest that Tsunade "Incredible Tough" Skin is tougher and has better Durability than Susanoo!?

It is enough for Jinton to take half her Body or the most critical parts of it or just gets her Whole in big enough Jinton or even from a distance as Muu did with Ohnoki Iwa Bunshin!


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You keep asserting things you have no way of proving.



He doesn't have to prove it, it's the other way around, the ones saying that A is able to blitz Tsunade have to prove it.


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## Saru (Mar 21, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> I highly doubt she will be fast enough to touch the ground before Ei decapitates her. She may be able to use Byakugou, but summon? Highly doubt about that.




Why? You don't think she can do this in the time it takes for Minato to litter a battlefield with kunai or for Sasuke to build up chakra for Amaterasu?


There is an undeniable lag between the time that A amps up his Raiton shroud and the time that he uses it at full speed.



> Dude, she said that  this time, she is fighting as well. And she did absolutely nothing after those words. She couldnt react, at all.




As I said, she was in control of the situation. There is more than one way for Tsunade to join a fight. A also attacked _*Naruto*_, not Tsunade, so it's disingenuous to use those panels to suggest that Tsunade would be helpless to A's speed one-on-one.​


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> He doesn't have to prove it, it's the other way around, the ones saying that A is able to blitz Tsunade have to prove it.



Exactly. Anything less than V2 isn't blitzing Tsunade given that Jugo could react. If Tsunade is the same position as Jugo, then Ay would definitely lose his life though I doubt Ay would battle Tsunade like that.

If Ay Amps V2 from the start, then Tsunade summons 10% Katsuyu and outlasts.


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## fyhb (Mar 21, 2016)

How does Tsunade summon 10% Katsuyu!?


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> How does Tsunade summon 10% Katsuyu!?



By using the summoning justu.


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## fyhb (Mar 21, 2016)

Hmm didn't she say that now with 2 Byakugou Users they can summon 1/10 of Katsuyu,which suggests that she alone can Summon only 5% Katsuyu which she always use.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

5% Katsuyu is a lot larger than the boss-sized version we saw Tsunade use against Orochimaru and Pain.


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Hmm didn't she say that now with 2 Byakugou Users they can summon 1/10 of Katsuyu,which suggests that she alone can Summon only 5% Katsuyu which she always use.



Two users are needed to summon the slug then proceed to heal more than 50,000 shinobi yeah. But just summoning 10% by itself? I see no reason Tsuande couldn't when she can summon 5% with close to 0 chakra, and then proceed to heal the other Kage.

Edit: even if she couldn't summon a Juubi sized Katsuyu, she could summon one vastly larger than her conventional one.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

The Katsuyu that Tsunade summoned to heal the other Kage wasn't even boss sized, by looking at it or by how Orochimaru said that one was tiny.


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> The fact that Jugo reacted to A's Body Flicker from a similar distance and was able to put up a guard at the last minute is frankly more than enough evidence to suggest that Tsunade can summon Katsuyu or punch the ground in a similar time frame.



No, it isn't. That doesn't even make any sense. What does Jūgo have to do with Tsunade? When has Tsunade _ever_ summoned Katsuyu or Ōkashō'd the ground in response to an opponent charging her at legendary speeds?



Saru said:


> Claiming that Tsunade would get blitzed and killed when A failed to accomplish something similar against a less experienced, less aware opponent in Jugo is a more outlandish claim.



Experience ≠ Reflexes. 



Saru said:


> A doesn't magically start off with Raiton Chakra Mode activated either; he has to activate it.



Which he can do as he takes off, just as we saw when he bitchslapped KCM Naruto back to the ground.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 21, 2016)

> Why? You don't think she can do this in the time it takes for Minato to litter a battlefield with kunai or for Sasuke to build up chakra for Amaterasu?
> 
> Spoiler: Show
> 
> There is an undeniable lag between the time that A amps up his Raiton shroud and the time that he uses it at full speed.



SHe needs to bite herself. After that, she needs to put the blood on her other hand. After than, she needs to touch the ground. During all those actions, Ei can activate V2 and speedblitz her. 



> As I said, she was in control of the situation. There is more than one way for Tsunade to join a fight. A also attacked Naruto, not Tsunade, so it's disingenuous to use those panels to suggest that Tsunade would be helpless to A's speed one-on-one.



Stop using the fanfic of yours. She said that this time, she is fighting as well. Because, obviously, she didnt want Naruto to be killed, or hurt. She joined Naruto's side. But what she has done? Nothing. She joined the fight, but couldnt do anything while Ei warned Naruto about his attack, attacked him, missed and crushed some random rock.



> Exactly. Anything less than V2 isn't blitzing Tsunade given that Jugo could react. If Tsunade is the same position as Jugo, then Ay would definitely lose his life though I doubt Ay would battle Tsunade like that.
> 
> If Ay Amps V2 from the start, then Tsunade summons 10% Katsuyu and outlasts.



Then he cuts her head off before she can summon Katsuyu.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> When has Tsunade _ever_ summoned Katsuyu or Ōkashō'd the ground in response to an opponent charging her at legendary speeds?



What is the point of asking that question?


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## Saru (Mar 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, it isn't. That doesn't even make any sense. What does Jūgo have to do with Tsunade?




It makes plenty of sense. Jugo throwing a guard up at the last second against A means that Tsunade, who arguably has better reaction feats, would be capable of replicating that feat or doing better. In this case, since A isn't starting out with RCM already activated, Tsunade has more time to react than Jugo as well assuming that the starting distance is comparable.



> When has Tsunade ever summoned Katsuyu or Ōkashō'd the ground in response to an opponent charging her at legendary speeds?




What does A charging at Tsunade have to do with _Tsunade's_ ability to move her body?





> Experience ≠ Reflexes.




Experience = "Hey, it's that guy I fought alongside who runs really fast and can chop things. I should probably use my Boss Summon which turns physical attacks into wasted energy." Summoning Katsuyu will likely be Tsunade's first action if not a ground pound (which requires even less movement than Kuchiyose) provided that Tsunade found such action effective.





> Which he can do as he takes off, just as we saw when he bitchslapped KCM Naruto back to the ground.




I addressed that possibility twice already.​


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> It makes plenty of sense. Jugo throwing a guard up at the last second against A means that Tsunade, who arguably has better reaction feats, would be capable of replicating that feat or doing better.



Jūgo in that form has one reaction feat and it's better than every single one of Tsunade's. Jūgo's feats are better than her's in his lesser forms too. Dodging Version 1 B's Lariat, for example. 



Saru said:


> Experience = "Hey, it's that guy I fought alongside who runs really fast and can chop things. I should probably use my Boss Summon which turns physical attacks into wasted energy."



...cool. Experience ≠ reflexes. Oh, and you should probably substitute "Boss Summon" for "Byakugō: Creation Rebirth." It's far more in-character for her to begin the fight with that.  



Saru said:


> I addressed that possibility twice already.



If he attacks her at speeds that intercepted KCM Naruto, then she isn't doing anything but blocking, if that.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

Reacting to Bee from several dozen meters away, when he was only moving in that direction as a result of the force of his swing at Sasuke, isn't a better feat than a single one of Tsunade's reaction feats. 



StarWanderer said:


> Stop using the fanfic of yours. She said that this time, she is fighting as well. Because, obviously, she didnt want Naruto to be killed, or hurt. She joined Naruto's side. But what she has done? Nothing. She joined the fight, but couldnt do anything while Ei warned Naruto about his attack, attacked him, missed and crushed some random rock.



Also you- I think you're misunderstanding what Tsunade's intentions were.

Tsunade stepped _in front of Naruto_ and said Raikage's stubborn butt would have to go through her. _Naruto_ then took off _from behind Tsunade_ because _he_ thought she shouldn't have to fight his fights, and Raikage _then_ went after Naruto.

Tsunade stepped up to the plate expecting Naruto to remain in her immediate zone. She wasn't ever intent on playing catch with the Raikage and Jinchūriki; all of them knew she wouldn't be able to do anything like that with them, which is why Naruto did what he did.


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Reacting to Bee from several dozen meters away, when he was only moving in that direction as a result of the force of his swing at Sasuke, isn't a better than a single one of Tsunade's reaction feats.



Grabbing Karin & Suigetsu and dodging B from the distance in the scan is probably better than any of her reaction feats. The fastest thing she's reacted to is what, Katon: Ryūen Hōka?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Grabbing Karin & Suigetsu and dodging to B from the distance in the scan is probably better than any of her reaction feats.



Considering how sizable that distance was as well as _how_ Bee was traveling to begin with _no_ _it_ _isn't_.



> The fastest thing she's reacted to is what, Katon: Ryūen Hōka?



That's a good display of direct movement, but _in terms of reacting_ her other feats are easily more impressive imo.


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## Saru (Mar 21, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> SHe needs to bite herself. After that, she needs to put the blood on her other hand. After than, she needs to touch the ground. During all those actions, Ei can activate V2 and speedblitz her.




Trying to stretch out the process of Kuchiyose into a list of small movements to make it seem like a longer process than it truly is is pointless. Tsunade can do all of that in one swift motion. You've also decided to conveniently ignore the fact that Minato was able to litter a battlefield with kunai and Sasuke was able to build up chakra for Amaterasu in the time that it took for A to amp his chakra to bijuu levels. You should probably address that.



> She said that this time, she is fighting as well. Because, obviously, she didnt want Naruto to be killed, or hurt. She joined Naruto's side. But what she has done? Nothing. She joined the fight, but couldnt do anything while Ei warned Naruto about his attack, attacked him, missed and crushed some random rock.




I'm not surprised you don't understand where I'm coming from given that you don't consider support a form of battle strength. Everything is not as black and white as you make it out to be, and you're taking Tsunade's words and actions out of the context of both the situation and her own abilities.




Rocky said:


> Jūgo in that form has one reaction feat and it's better than every single one of Tsunade's. Jūgo's feats are better than her's in his lesser forms too. Dodging Version 1 B's Lariat, for example.




That Lariat was used from a considerable distance away (farther than is conventionally used with Lariat), and Jugo was using an enhanced form of his form Body Flicker. Tsunade would not be evading or trying to outrun someone who's faster than her because she's not lacking in battle sense.

And Jugo's feat does not outclass Tsunade's _all_ of reaction feats. Like, at all.



> ...cool. Experience ≠ reflexes. Oh, and you should probably substitute "Boss Summon" for "Byakugō: Creation Rebirth." It's far more in-character for her to begin the fight with that.




So, are you suggesting that Tsunade is less aware of her physical limitations and A's physical abilities than yourself despite Tsunade having fought alongside A?

Kuchiyose was actually Tsunade's first move in the Sannin Deadlock.

It looked as though she was about to use Kuchiyose again against Madara before Edo Tensei was released.

So no, it's not OOC for Tsunade to summon Katsuyu if she feels the needs to do so.



> If he attacks her at speeds that intercepted KCM Naruto, then she isn't doing anything but blocking, if that.




You mean after he had already activated Raiton Chakra Mode?

Those situations were different, and they don't fit into the context of this hypothetical battle. For one, KCM Naruto hadn't mastered his Hiraishin-level Body Flicker, so he wasn't using it to get away. Secondly, Naruto wasn't trying to fight A, he was trying to go around him. That's not the same thing as preparing to fight him head on.​


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2016)

Swatting away those fireballs before Mei could weave seals( consider here seal feats against Madara) is way better than anything Jugo has done. 

@Star

Ay blitzing Tsuande is based on his mindset and distance.


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2016)

The distance wasn't all that sizable by the time Jūgo grabbed his friends. Jumping over Preskip Kabuto's attack from below, throwing herself in the way of Orochimaru's sword, and the unquantifiable Heavenly Transfer feat are better how?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> It looked as though she was about to use Kuchiyose again against Madara before Edo Tensei was released.​



I thought this too.

I wondered if she was going to use Katsuyu's splitting ability and hope Madara didn't happen to hit the slugs the Kage happened to be in long enough for them to regroup out of sight or something.


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> Jugo's feat does not outclass Tsunade's _all_ of reaction feats. Like, at all.



You can see my conversation with Flamey for the Lariat, but regardless, blocking RCM A > Anything Tsunade has done. 



Saru said:


> So, are you suggesting that Tsunade is less aware of her physical limitations and A's physical abilities than yourself despite Tsunade having fought alongside A?



No.



Saru said:


> Kuchiyose was actually Tsunade's first move in the Sannin Deadlock.



That on depends on when you think the fight began. I didn't say it would be ooc for her to use Katusyu (that would be stupid). I said it'd be more in-character for her to _begin_ with Creation Rebirth.



Saru said:


> KCM Naruto hadn't mastered his Hiraishin-level Body Flicker, so he wasn't using it to get away.



His speeds didn't match Minato's until the very end, but they were still high enough to leave Kisame in awe, and he's (Naruto) tiers faster than Tsunade, so...



Likes boss said:


> Swatting away those fireballs before Mei could weave seals( consider here seal feats against Madara) is way better than anything Jugo has done.



A > Fire Dragons.


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## Saru (Mar 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The distance wasn't all that sizable by the time Jūgo grabbed his friends.




They were standing right next to him, and Jugo's arms can stretch. Jugo could have turned around, stuck his arms out, and jet-packed off into the distance, and there's no coordination or complex movement involved in that.



> Jumping over Preskip Kabuto's attack from below, throwing herself in the way of Orochimaru's sword, and the unquantifiable Heavenly Transfer feat are better how?




All of those feats you just mentioned happened at much shorter ranges, which makes them inherently more difficult to accomplish than Jugo's feat. I wasn't referring to Heavenly Transfer specifically because it's a rather ambiguous feat, but it does show that Tsunade's speed and reactions are good enough to coordinate a strike with *Base* A. 

This is why I was making a point about A not _starting_ with Raiton Chakra Mode activated.



Rocky said:


> That on depends on when you think the fight began. I didn't say it would be ooc for her to use Katusyu (that would be stupid). I said it'd be more in-character for her to _begin_ with Creation Rebirth.




And I'm saying that Tsunade is intelligent and experienced enough to adapt to different circumstances. Itachi often open matches with Goukakyu. Does that mean he's going to open with Goukakyuu if he's fighting Sasuke who already has Susano'o up?



> His speeds didn't match Minato's until the very end, but they were still high enough to leave Kisame in awe, and he's tiers faster than Tsunade, so...




The Kisame feat was an inconsistency and not Naruto's controlled speed. The speed that KCM Naruto first used against A is ambiguously higher than Tsunade's speed, and it was used under a different set of circumstances.




FlamingRain said:


> I thought this too.
> 
> I wondered if she was going to use Katsuyu's splitting ability and hope Madara didn't happen to hit the slugs the Kage happened to be in long enough for them to regroup out of sight or something.




BoC pointed it out a few weeks ago and I took notice. At first I thought she was simply using a seal for healing as she has shown to do when using Sozou Saisei, but that doesn't make good sense because she had Byakugou activated at the time.​


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## Lord Stark (Mar 21, 2016)

Shodai- Hashirama
Nidaime- Tobirama
Sandaime- Hiruzen
Yondaime- Minato
Godaime- Gaara


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The distance wasn't all that sizable by the time Jūgo grabbed his friends. Jumping over Preskip Kabuto's attack from below, throwing herself in the way of Orochimaru's sword, and the unquantifiable Heavenly Transfer feat are better how?



Half the size = twice the distance, so considering Jūgo and Bee's sizes when near each other and their sizes compared to each other in that panel the distance was very large. That also wasn't the direction Bee originally leapt in- he only shifted towards their direction _by_ swinging at Sasuke, and so couldn't have even been going anywhere near his top speed.

Kabuto's hand popped out of the ground _mere inches_ from Tsunade's ankle, and she still managed to jerk her legs up out of the way, despite Kabuto having ingested Hyōrōgan at the time (enhanced physicality) while Tsunade was at that point out-of-practice (hindered) and out-of-breath (hindered). Tsunade was lying on the floor when Orochimaru swung at Naruto, yet still flipped around in time.

The Tensō no Jutsu feat isn't unquantifiable either. Madara and Mū were moving towards Naruto, Gaara, and Ohnoki and all of them were already several times the size of Taka in the panel you posted. Tsunade and Raikage were zapped into the area _between_ them, and yet were still able to notice and strike before they simply collided with each other (because they were standing normally when Mabui warped them).

So unless you think that Kabuto wouldn't have been able to reach out or Orochimaru wouldn't have been able to swing in the time it took Bee to reach the plateau from his distance using the force of his swing, which I don't for one second buy into, all of those feats required much sharper reactions.


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## Itachi san88 (Mar 21, 2016)

The strongest in every generation are always the Hokages, with some exceptions. Kishi has a clear preference for Konoha lol


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> All of those feats you just mentioned happened at much shorter ranges, which makes them inherently more difficult to accomplish than Jugo's feat.



Dodging a punch from point-blank is still easier than dodging a bullet from a dozen meters away.



Saru said:


> And I'm saying that Tsunade is intelligent and experienced enough to adapt to different circumstances.



Creation Rebirth is just as useful as Katsuyu against A, so that argument doesn't really work. 



Saru said:


> The Kisame feat was an inconsistency and not Naruto's controlled speed. The speed that KCM Naruto first used against A is ambiguously higher than Tsunade's speed, and it was used under a different set of circumstances.



Inconsistency? Ha. It's quite literally the first demonstration of the form's super speed and the set-up for the entire Minato parallel. The first thing he said when A intercepted him was _"he can keep up with my Biju Mode?",_ indicating that Naruto wasn't really going any slower than he had been going before in that form.


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## Rafay (Mar 21, 2016)

Hashirama
Tobirama
Onoki
Minato
Gaara (or Onoki if he counts)


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## Saru (Mar 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Dodging a punch from point-blank is still easier than dodging a bullet from a dozen meters away.




Why are you still focusing on evasion? Tsunade isn't going to use that strategy against A because it won't work. Slapping the ground before A can reach her, however, is well within Tsunade's ability.




> Creation Rebirth is just as useful as Katsuyu against A, so that argument doesn't really work.




Except Raiton chops are a thing, and Tsunade's witnessed what they can do firsthand, so she has plenty of reason to summon Katsuyu quickly. She's also at a significant speed disadvantage and is fighting A one-on-one--a scenario unlike anything that Tsunade has ever encountered in the manga.




> Inconsistency? Ha. It's quite literally the first demonstration of the form's super speed and the set-up for the entire Minato parallel. The first thing he said when A intercepted him was _"he can keep up with my Biju Mode?",_ indicating that Naruto wasn't really going any slower than he had been going before in that form.




Like I said, KCM Naruto's speed is ambiguously greater than Tsunade's. But so is A's, and KCM Naruto was no faster than him prior to unlocking his fastest Body Flicker, so bringing up Naruto's response to A's speed under different circumstances doesn't serve to prove anything about what Tsunade could do here.​


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2016)

@ Rocky

I think Jugo reacting to Ay dehypes his V1 speed rather giving Jugo super reactions. I mean Suigestu was intercepting that level of speed from unfavorable positions and I'm not one to believe that Suigestu has sharingan level reactions, rather it's possible to physically possible to react to Ay at certain distances. I see Tsuande physically reacting to v1 Ay, as she's shown better reactions than both Jugo and Suigestu outside of that specific feat.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Inconsistency? Ha. It's quite literally the first demonstration of the form's super speed and the set-up for the entire Minato parallel. The first thing he said when A intercepted him was _"he can keep up with my Biju Mode?",_ indicating that Naruto wasn't really going any slower than he had been going before in that form.



It makes sense. It's an inconsistency on Naruto's part, not Kishi's.

It was the first demonstration of the form's speed, and in that demonstration Naruto got his ankle stuck in the wall. _That_ was why Yamato said he wasn't at the Fourth's level yet, and it is followed by an absence of yellow flash commentary up until the finish of the Kage and Jinchūriki encounter.

Tsunade did not say anything about a yellow flash when Naruto first tried to dart around the Raikage, even though she did think to make the comment later when Naruto went even faster than he had been going. It's plausible that since Naruto used the form's true speed and messed himself up earlier he decided to refrain from it as he adjusted to the mode, then when Raikage came at him with his own true speed Naruto utilized it again. Naruto's surprise that Raikage was able to keep up with him when they first met up can simply mean that Naruto was still going very fast in general.

That's how I understand Naruto's development with KCM anyway.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 21, 2016)

> Also you- I think you're misunderstanding what Tsunade's intentions were.
> 
> Tsunade stepped in front of Naruto and said Raikage's stubborn butt would have to go through her. Naruto then took off from behind Tsunade because he thought she shouldn't have to fight his fights, and Raikage then went after Naruto.
> 
> Tsunade stepped up to the plate expecting Naruto to remain in her immediate zone. She wasn't ever intent on playing catch with the Raikage and Jinchūriki; all of them knew she wouldn't be able to do anything like that with them, which is why Naruto did what he did.



Dude, she said that "this time, i am going to fight as well!". She joined the fight and did absolutely nothing. Because she couldnt react. 



> Trying to stretch out the process of Kuchiyose into a list of small movements to make it seem like a longer process than it truly is is pointless. Tsunade can do all of that in one swift motion. You've also decided to conveniently ignore the fact that Minato was able to litter a battlefield with kunai and Sasuke was able to build up chakra for Amaterasu in the time that it took for A to amp his chakra to bijuu levels. You should probably address that.



You should probably prove her Kuchiyose is as fast as Minato's Hiraishin preparation, or Ei's chakra pumping. Kuchiyose involves hand speed, which is not very fast in Tsunade's case. She will get decapitated before she can summon Katsuyu.



> I'm not surprised you don't understand where I'm coming from given that you don't consider support a form of battle strength. Everything is not as black and white as you make it out to be, and you're taking Tsunade's words and actions out of the context of both the situation and her own abilities.



I am going by the canon. And in the canon, she joined the fight. Hence her saying that she is going to fight as well. But what she's done later, after joining the fight? Nothing. That's how she "joined".



> Ay blitzing Tsuande is based on his mindset and distance.



I'd say distance only. He wont use his regular speed against the best ninja-medic in the world and Legendary Sannin. V2 comes out as soon as the fight starts. And then, if the distance between them is less then 20 meters, Ei decapitates her.


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> It's plausible that since Naruto used the form's true speed and messed himself up earlier he decided to refrain from it as he adjusted to the mode, then when Raikage came at him with his own true speed Naruto utilized it again.



Plausible yes, but I have my doubts. After Naruto failed once he said _"faster this time"_, but failed again. Then it was _"now's my chance"_ when A was distracted by B, but he was repelled yet again. It's the third comment, _"gotta do it!!"_, that implies he wasn't holding anything back at that point.


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2016)

@Star
He didn't use V2 against Obito( who he thought was Madara) or MS Sasuke( who he thought killed KB) or Zetsu( who is an Akatsuki member).☻ Both of the former are greater threats than Tsuande - So Im doubtful of him using V2 off the bat against Tsunade. He might, but it isn't 100%.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Mar 21, 2016)

Hashirama is pretty clearly the strongest of the Shodaime.

We don't really know anything about the Nidaime Kazekage or Raikage.  Of the remaining three, I would give Muu the edge--Jinton is really powerful, and being able to make oneself invisible makes it even more deadly.

I would say Onoki is probably the strongest Sandaime.  (I say "probably" because IIRC Yagura was supposed to be a perfect jinchuuriki, and full partnership with a bijuu tends to dramatically increase one's power level.  But we don't know enough about his abilities to say that he rivaled or surpassed Onoki.)

Minato is the strongest Yondaime, hands down.

The Godaime position is pretty easy to choose for as well; it's clearly Gaara.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

Yagura was the _fourth_ Mizukage.


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## Lord Trollbias (Mar 21, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Yagura was the _fourth_ Mizukage.


Not the first time I've seen him called the 3rd on here too. Like c'mon lads. Even though I think Minato would ultimately prevail I'd love to see a fight between the two.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> @Star
> He didn't use V2 against Obito( who he thought was Madara) or MS Sasuke( who he thought killed KB) or Zetsu( who is an Akatsuki member).☻ Both of the former are greater threats than Tsuande - So Im doubtful of him using V2 off the bat against Tsunade. He might, but it isn't 100%.



Yet he used V2 from the start against Minato. Tsunade is the best ninja-medic in the world + Legendary Sannin. Ei will most likely use V2 against her because of that. And then, Tsunade gets her head chopped off.


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 22, 2016)

Imo:

Shodai: Hashirama
Nidaime: Muu
Sandaime: Oonoki-A
Yondaime: Yagura-Minato
Godaime: Gaara
Rokudaime: Kakashi
Nanadaime: Naruto


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## Senjuclan (Mar 22, 2016)

Shodai Generation: Hashirama (no contest)
Nidaime Generation: Tobirama
Sadaime Generation: AAA
Yondaime Generation: Minato
Godaime Generation: Gaara

Tobirama to me is more powerful than Muu and Gengetsu. Most people fail to take into account edo tensei when evaluating him, even though it was a jutsu he used without compunction. Coupled with hiraishin and sensing, that arsenal is more dangerous than Muu's and Gengetsu

Gaara outclasses the other kages because of his all around abilities. He does not have the strongest offense or the best defense but taken all together, his ability for flight, increased speed through sand flight, automatic defense, sand burial and sealing is above the other kages arsenal


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## Veracity (Mar 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Yet he used V2 from the start against Minato. Tsunade is the best ninja-medic in the world + Legendary Sannin. Ei will most likely use V2 against her because of that. And then, Tsunade gets her head chopped off.



That still doesn't prove anything. He used it against Minato because he was fastest shinobi alive. I've already listed other characters with hype comparable to Tsunade and yet they didn't get the V2 treatment - thus there is no concrete evidence that Tsuande would.


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 22, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Shodai Generation: Hashirama (no contest)
> Nidaime Generation: Tobirama
> Sadaime Generation: AAA
> Yondaime Generation: Minato
> ...



Tobirama's edo tensei doesn't bring the powers of the zombie, just his appearance and is only use to set up a bomb. Muu is more powerful.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 22, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> *Tobirama's edo tensei doesn't bring the powers of the zombie, just his appearance and is only use to set up a bomb*. Muu is more powerful.



Please show me where the manga says the bolded. I must have missed it


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 22, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Please show me where the manga says the bolded. I must have missed it



When Tobirama said that Orochimaru was full for bringing the people with his memories and powers because they can go against his summoner.


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## Platypus (Mar 22, 2016)

Tobirama was referring to Orochimaru bringing them back at nearly full strength. How's that imply that the Edo Tensei doesn't acquire the abilities of the resurrected soul unless the caster is Kabuto or Orochimaru?


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## Senjuclan (Mar 22, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> When Tobirama said that Orochimaru was full for bringing the people with his memories and powers because they can go against his summoner.



You misunderstood it. Tobirama said Orochimaru was a fool because since he was at near full power, he could break free from edo tensei. 

It does not imply that Tobirama's edo tensei could not use their jutsu, only that they were not at full power


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 22, 2016)

He did say that he used the edo tensei for the bombs


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## Platypus (Mar 22, 2016)

That doesn't prove anything except for the fact that he developed a jutsu with Edo Tensei in mind.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 22, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> He did say that he used the edo tensei for the bombs



So? He said that he created strategieS to use edo tensei, using them as bombs, is just one of the way he used them


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## StarWanderer (Mar 22, 2016)

> That still doesn't prove anything. He used it against Minato because he was fastest shinobi alive. I've already listed other characters with hype comparable to Tsunade and yet they didn't get the V2 treatment - thus there is no concrete evidence that Tsuande would.



He used V2 because Minato singlehandedly prevented Kurama from being taken. He didnt think Minato is the fastest shinobi alive at that moment. 

Sasuke didnt have the hype level of Tsunade, the same thing with Zetsu. Ei used V2 from the start against Minato and Edo Madara. There is a huge possibility of him using V2.


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