# Sakura VS. Sasuke/Naruto Incarnations



## OG Appachai (Aug 21, 2014)

Ive read some pretty ridiculous stuff in the battledome ever since sakura punched kaguya, idk if people are trollin or what. 

So lets see if she really caught up to naruto and sasuke FEAT WISE because F*ck Portrayal (you know who you are). Sorry if this thread has been made before.

Location: Destroyed konoha
Knowledge:Manga
Mindset: To Kill
Distance: 15meters
Restrictions: none

Just to be clear the incarnations shes fighting are:

Hebi Sasuke (Kirin prepped *meaning thunder clouds are present* and not prepped)
MS Sasuke (post kage summit but clear vision)
EMS Sasuke

Bonus fighter: current sasuke

Scenario 2:
Wind Arc Naruto (allowed up to 4tails kyubi mode)
SM Nartuo (no time limit sage mode)
BM?Naruto (Before getting all 9 bijuu)

Bonus fighter: Current naruto


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2014)

She dies all, nuff said. 

Inb4 Rikudo level Sakura.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke (Kirin prepped and not prepped) - Hebi-Sasuke would ether die instantly to the shock-wave of Okasho or he'd be blown away to such an extent where he's left mid-air and open to Sakura finishing him off casually with a successive strike. 

As for w/ Kirin prepped, i'm not sure what that means. Does that mean the storm-front is already ready or does that mean the Kirin Lighting bolt is already in the sky and Sasuke only needs to lower his hand? If it's former than Sakura will have enough time to pull out Katsuya to defend and considering Katsuya w/ Byakugo tanked CST (saving an entire village worth of people) Kirin accomplishes nothing. If it's the latter than Sakura would probably only have time to activate Byakugo (not activated Byakugo and summon Katsuya), in which case it comes down to what Byakugo alone can allow Sakura to tank. Personally I think she'd still tank Kirin, but I can understand if someone disagrees, even though with her fighting Kaguya right now, I feel like the risk of that person being proven horribly wrong is extremely high.

MS Sasuke  - Again Okasho's shockwave would blow him away and force Susano'o to defend. I'm sure Susano'o can save him from the shock-wave, but it will be left air-born and an easy target for Sakura to smash through with a successive Okasho. That's where I see the match ending more often than not. Granted if Sakura does not make that opening move, Sasuke might have a chance for Amaterasu/Enton, but Sakura being hit by that w/ full knowledge of it, is extremely unlikely (and Kishi tends to troll that move anyway). On the flip side Sakura can win at any point by overpowering Sasuke with Okasho, catching him off guard with Byakugo regen, or out-lasting him. There is also the potential of Sakura summoning a large enough Katsuya to steam roll through him, as well as the tactical usages of Knock-Out Gas while Sasuke is distracted by Sakura's Okasho's and Katsuya. Ultimately Sakura's odds are much better than Sasuke's.

EMS-Sasuke - This utlimately depends on how wisely Sakura utilizes her abilities. She has the abilities to compete here and potentially even win, but she needs to use them to their peak effectiveness to be able to contend w/ P-Susano'o and Enton spamage. Usually all but the most intelligent characters don't use their abilities to peak effectiveness in the manga; Sakura being someone who is right on the edge between being one of the more intelligent characters to just being above average Jonin, makes it hard for me to say whether she'd use all the necessary strategies to win. 

Current Sasuke -  lol He'd rape the hell out Sakura.

Wind Arc Naruto  - Shockwave alone probably kills him, if not successive punch while he's rag-dolled from the shock-wave would

SM Naruto - Unlimited Sage means infinite chakra, so this SM Naruto would fodderize even Kaguya, therefore he fodderizes Sakura. As for none insane power up SM-Naruto, Sakura would most likely win. Again Shock-wave would send him flying into the air and unable to evade a successive strike. Again even if that doesn't happen to be left fighting Katsuya, while constantly having to avoid being blown into the air by Okasho shockwaves, Knock-Out Gas, Reverse-Shosen, Poisoned Kunais, etc.. and the only technique that could down Sakura being FRS which she has full knowledge of, makes SM-Naruto's victory extremely unlikely.

BM Naruto - Much like against EMS-Sasuke she'd have to play her cards perfectly to have any chance, and i'm not sure she'd do that. I also feel do to Naruto's RAW AOE power her odds are much worse here than against EMS-Sasuke. So Naruto most likely wins even if she plays her cards right. Especially if Naruto can stack BM w/ SM, in which case I don't think it will be much of a fight at all.

Current Naruto - Much like against current Sasuke she gets horribly raped.


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## Kyu (Aug 22, 2014)

> Hebi Sasuke (Kirin prepped and not prepped)



Loses versus Hebi but has a slim chance if he underestimates her.



> MS Sasuke (post kage summit but clear vision)



Shoots an arrow through her brain. Not a single fuck was given.



> EMS Sasuke



Burns her into ashes. No difficulty whatsoever.




> Wind Arc Naruto (allowed up to 4tails kyubi mode)



Sakura has a fair chance at defeating Wind Arc Naruto given the latter's base speed wasn't all that impressive until the Pain Arc - then again, Sakura's most recent speed feat is picking on Juubling fodder. But the question is  - will her 3 years worth of Yin Seal chakra be enough to outlast someone who has a natural stamina advantage over her when not even taking Kurama into account?

However once Naruto turns into KN4 he becomes a sitting duck and Sakura puts him down after a couple powerful strikes to the head.



> SM Nartuo (unlimited sage mode)



Naruto is far more skilled than Sakura in CQC. 

He kicks her in the cunt & FRS shreds her to death.



> BM?Naruto (Before getting all 9 bijuu)



The funny thing is...one of Naruto's weaker KCM/SM clones oneshots her.

That should tell you how insignificant of a threat she is to Nardo.


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## OG Appachai (Aug 22, 2014)

op edited a bit @turrin since you wanna nit pick


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## Rocky (Aug 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> EMS-Sasuke - This utlimately depends on how wisely Sakura utilizes her abilities. She has the abilities to compete here and potentially even win, but she needs to use them to their peak effectiveness to be able to contend w/ P-Susano'o and Enton spamage.



What abilities does she carry that can compete with Perfect Susano'o? Especially when Sasuke can cover his Susano'o in spiked fire to stop all of her punches.​


Turrin said:


> Again Shock-wave would send him flying into the air and unable to evade a successive strike.



He can evade with Kage Bunshin.​


Turrin said:


> Again even if that doesn't happen to be left fighting Katsuya.



He has access to all of the Gama and Sage Toads, and they can fight Katsuyu for him.​


Turrin said:


> and the only technique that could down Sakura being FRS which she has full knowledge of.



Actually he has a Genjutsu called Gamarinsho that could end the fight as well.

He can also hit her with Rasenshuriken by forcing her into the air with a shadow shuriken and throwing another where she can't avoid.​


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What abilities does she carry that can compete with Perfect Susano'o?​



Given that her Okasho did damage to Current-Kaguya and she didn't even enhance it with the chakra she has stored in her Byakugo-Seal. I'm assuming she can at least do some damage to P-Susano'o with her Max-Power Okasho and push it back a bit w/ it's shock-waves. If she covers it in Katsuya Acid weakening its defenses a bit more, she could potentially do even a bit more damage. 

Beyond that there is the fact that her chakra reserves would allow her to summon a massive portion of Katsuya. I don't see EMS-Sasuke's P-Susano'o steamrolling through a 40% or 50% Katsuya, and honestly that is a conservative estimate of what Sakura could summon, considering even now she still has chakra left in both Base and in her seal. I also feel FCD 40-50% Katsuya would do damage to P-Susano'o as well.

Than there is the simple fact she may be able to out-last it. It's not like we saw EMS-Sasuke being able to use P-Susano'o for long, and EMS-Sasuke does not have the chakra capacity feats of Byakugo-Sakura.




> Especially when Sasuke can cover his Susano'o in spiked fire to stop all of her punches.


Enton-Shield wouldn't help him at all. Sakura would just pull a Raikage and punch right through the flames, than remove her arm before the flames spread. Only difference is Byakugo can regrow limbs so this wouldn't cause her as much of an issue as Ei had.



> He can evade with Kage Bunshin.


Naruto isn't likely to be in a condition where he can create a KB, when rag-dolled by the shock-wave. 



> He has access to all of the Gama and Sage Toads, and they can fight Katsuyu for him.


Naruto never summons the Ni-Dai-Sennin, so the chances of them being an issue are slim. The Gama Trio would not be able to put up much of a fight against the amount or size of Katsuya that Sakura can summon, and would quickly be defeated. Really only Bunta at that time can compete with a single Boss-Sized Katsuya (and even he'd loose, if Sakura is channelling Byakugo through that Katsuya). Gammaken and Gammahiro, would both be defeated by a single Boss-Sized Katsuya each. Sakura can certainly summon more than 3 Boss-Sized Katsuya, so the Toads would get completely overwhelmed. Sakura would also casually one-shot the toads with a single punch, poisoned kunai, or knock-out-gas. So yeah...



> Actually he has a Genjutsu called Gamarinsho that could end the fight as well


That would be great if he ever IC summoned the Ni-Dai-Sennin, but he doesn't. Though even if he did I don't see Gamarinsho being likely to go off. The Ni-Dai-Sennin need to stay still and focus on charing Senjutsu and getting the harmony correct. A single Okasho shock-wave would ether out-right kill those 2, and if not it would certainly disrupt them.



> He can also hit her with Rasenshuriken by forcing her into the air with a shadow shuriken and throwing another where she can't avoid.


Sakura knows all about the tricky ways Naruto can use Rasenshuriken and that he can use multiple. She is not likely to simply jump into the air where she is exposed w/o a counter measure. She'd be more likely to just use Okasho to create a shock-wave to disrupt Naruto's attempt to create or properly throw the Rasenshuriken the moment that she saw Naruto and clones beginning to form it. With full knowledge of Rasenshuriken I just don't see the odds of Sakura getting done in by it being good at all.​


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## Hachibi (Aug 22, 2014)

Turrin comparing CST and Kirin when they aren't the same type of attack 



OG Appachai said:


> Hebi Sasuke (Kirin prepped *meaning thunder clouds are present* and not prepped)


Kirin GG. Either that or a Chidori Eiso to the head.


> MS Sasuke (post kage summit but clear vision)


Susano Arrow or Amaterasu/Enton GG.



> EMS Sasuke



He turn her to ash.



> Bonus fighter: current sasuke


lol.




> Wind Arc Naruto (allowed up to 4tails kyubi mode)


She kill him after a while.


> SM Naruto (no time limit sage mode)


FRS/COFRS GG. Either that or Frog Song GG if he want to wait for it (which he doesn't need)



> BM?Naruto (Before getting all 9 bijuu)



Bijuudama. That's all their is to say.



> Bonus fighter: Current naruto


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Turrin comparing CST and Kirin when they aren't the same type of attack :


They don't have to be the same type of attack. If someone tanks CST it's obvious to all who is not trolling that Kirin is a non issue. Or to put it another way if someone tanks a fucking Juubi Bijuu bomb, it's not a credible argument to turn around and say they can't tank Grand-Fire-ball because it's not the same type of attack


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## Hachibi (Aug 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> They don't have to be the same type of attack. If someone tanks CST it's obvious to all who is not trolling that Kirin is a non issue. Or to put it another way if someone tanks a fucking Juubi Bijuu bomb, it's not a credible argument to turn around and say they can't tank Grand-Fire-ball because it's not the same type of attack



Nope. You compare a Gravity Attack to a Destructive Lightning Bolt. One doesn't destroy a object but crush it while the other destroy whatever it touch. 
And no, Kirin and CST aren't that far in power.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Nope. You compare a Gravity Attack to a Destructive Lightning Bolt. One doesn't destroy a object but crush it while the other destroy whatever it touch.
> .


High powered gravity does destroy whatever it touches, it crushes shit into nothing



> And no, Kirin and CST aren't that far in power


LOL


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 22, 2014)

Just like LOLSakura give EMS SASUKE HIGH DIFFICULTY


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## Hachibi (Aug 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> High powered gravity does destroy whatever it touches, it crushes shit into nothing



Which I have exactly stated.




> LOL



Yeah, because Kirin totally didn't destroy a hill.

I admit it isn't close in power, but you are overestimating the gap.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Which I have exactly stated.
> .


No you said crushing an object to nothing does not destroy it, which makes no sense.



> Yeah, because Kirin totally didn't destroy a hill.


A Hill vs an Entire Village 



> admit it isn't close in power, but you are overestimating the gap


No I'm not. One is a hill-buster. One is city buster. The scale difference is massive. What's more Byakugo-Katsuya protect an entire village, while here it only needs to protect one person. What's even more, Sakura is better at Byakugo and has more chakra fueling it than Tsunade. She also has more chakra to summon a large version of Katsuya. So we have several major gaps here

City Buster -----> Hill Buster
Protecting an Entire Village Populace -----> Protecting one Person
Sakura Byakugo Ability -----> Tsunade's
Sakura's Katsuya -----> Tsunade's


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## Hachibi (Aug 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No you said crushing an object to nothing does not destroy it, which makes no sense.


That's because I worded it wrong. 




> A Hill vs an Entire Village



One is higher while the other is Larger 



> No I'm not. One is a hill-buster. One is city buster. The scale difference is massive. What's more Byakugo-Katsuya protect an entire village, while here it only needs to protect one person. What's even more, Sakura is better at Byakugo and has more chakra fueling it than Tsunade. She also has more chakra to summon a large version of Katsuya. So we have several major gaps here


If Katsuya can protect her since Sasuke has summon as well.
And the village is more like a town than a city btw.



> City Buster -----> Hill Buster
> Protecting an Entire Village Populace -----> Protecting one Person
> Sakura Byakugo Ability -----> Tsunade's
> *Sakura's Katsuya -----> Tsunade's*



Since when Katsuya is a jutsu?


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## richard lewis (Aug 22, 2014)

Wind arc naruto: 
Sakura should be able to pretty much dominate him until KN4 comes out. Once KN4 comes out it becomes more difficult but I'd give it to Sakura high diff. If she uses Katsuya as a meat shield she could probably survive KN4's menacing ball, and a few of her high powered punches should be able to end him.

SM naruto:
With unlimited sage chakra naruto creates 300 KB's who them make 100 frs's and nuke her into oblivion.

BM naruto and up:
Sakura get butchered.

.........??..???..........................................................

Hebi sauce:
I'll give Sakura the benefit of the doubt and say that Katsuya can protect her from Kirin. In which case Sakura should be able to beat hebi sauce mid diff.

MS sauce and above:
Amaterasu one shots.


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## Kai (Aug 22, 2014)

Sakura is above Hebi/Wind Training Naruto and Sasuke, around the level of Pain/Kage Summit Naruto and Sasuke where, given her development, she can possibly even win. 

She's no competition against Perfect Susano'o or Bijuu Mode whatsoever.

Against current versions of the fated sons is just a bad joke.


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## Rocky (Aug 22, 2014)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Given that her Okasho did damage to Current-Kaguya and she didn't even enhance it with the chakra she t do some damage to P-Susano'o with her Max-Power Okasho and push it back a bit w/ it's shock-waves. If she covers it in Katsuya Acid weakening its defenses a bit QUOTEmore, she could potentially do even a bit more damage.



Sakura's punch barley dented a Jubiling. PS no-sells it,  along with any amount of acid. Even If Sasuke was completely submerged in acid, he would die of starvation before his Susano'o corroded away... 



> Beyond that there is the fact that her chakra reserves would allow her to summon a massive portion of Katsuya. I don't see EMS-Sasuke's P-Susano'o steamrolling through a 40% or 50% Katsuya, and honestly that is a conservative estimate of what Sakura could summon, considering even now she still has chakra left in both Base and in her seal. I also feel FCD 40-50% Katsuya would do damage to P-Susano'o as well.



Clokaed Sakura and Tsunade could only manage 10%. 50% Katsuya is fanfiction. 



> Enton-Shield wouldn't help him at all. Sakura would just pull a Raikage and punch right through the flames, than remove her arm before the flames spread. Only difference is Byakugo can regrow limbs so this wouldn't cause her as much of an issue as Ei had.



You can't hit through a spike. Her hand would be impaled and all of the force behind her punch would cease to exist. 


I'll do the rest when I'm not on a shit phone.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sakura's punch barley dented a Jubiling.


The punch blew a hole straight through the Juubling, Also considering her successive Okasho blew away Juublings at mass w/ the shock-wave alone, more recently her punch damage Kaguya, and she wasn't using Byakugo-Chakra to enhance Okasho, I think it would be extremely dishonest to assert that was her strongest punch.



> PS no-sells it, along with any amount of acid. Even If Sasuke was completely submerged in acid, he would die of starvation before his Susano'o corroded away...


This is based on nothing. Madara's Stage 3 EMS Susano'o were melting from Mei's Acid over time, nothing says Sauske's P-Susano'o can simply bathe in Acid w/o Issue. In-fact, the very fact that GOD-MODE Sasuke was still wary of being blow into Lava, suggest that even Rinnegan P-Susano'o will melt over time.



> Clokaed Sakura and Tsunade could only manage 10%. 50% Katsuya is fanfiction.


Tsunade said, that two people using Byakugo should be able to summon 10% Katsuya. She never said Sakura couldn't manage more or as much on her own; that is the fanfiction. 

Sakura summoned 5% Katsuya on her own many chapters ago. Are you really telling me that summoning another 5% worth of Katsuya is more chakra consuming than everything else Sakura did in the war-arc lol.

The idea that Sakura can't even summon 10% Katsuya, makes zero sense, and is not at all supported by the manga-cannon.



> You can't hit through a spike. Her hand would be impaled and all of the force behind her punch would cease to exist.


Where the hell are Enton spikes durability feats that suggest they can tank Sakura's punches


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## Rocky (Aug 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The punch blew a hole straight through the Juubling.



I see no hole, only a bruise. 



> I think it would be extremely dishonest to assert that was her strongest punch.



She also had no reason to hold back against the thing, so not buying that. 



> This is based on nothing. Madara's Stage 3 EMS Susano'o were melting from Mei's Acid over time.



Mizukage's Corrosive Mist Kekkei genkai that melted through Ribcage Susano'o in a few seconds ≠ Katsuyu's featless acid.



> nothing says Sauske's P-Susano'o can simply bathe in Acid w/o Issue. In-fact, the very fact that GOD-MODE Sasuke was still wary of being blow into Lava, suggest that even Rinnegan P-Susano'o will melt over time.



You have this backwards. Provide one destructive feat of Katsuyu's acid that suggests it potent enough to do anything to Perfect Susano'o or I will keep telling you that he no-sells it.



> Tsunade said, that two people using Byakugo should be able to summon 10% Katsuya. She never said Sakura couldn't manage more or as much on her own; that is the fanfiction.



Naruto-enhanced Sakura + Tsunade = 10%, so I fail to see how Sakura by herself summons anything even close.



> Sakura summoned 5% Katsuya on her own many chapters ago. Are you really telling me that summoning another 5% worth of Katsuya is more chakra consuming than everything else Sakura did in the war-arc lol.



Funny thing is, Sakura was _basically out_ of chakra before Jubidara even came along, so it's she was likely healed off panel by Naruto or something.



> Where the hell are Enton spikes durability feats that suggest they can tank Sakura's punches



What the..?

That doesn't make sense. Kagutsuchi is fire, which doesn't possess durability. 

Kagutsuchi sliced a Jubiling clean down the middle though , which is more damage that Sakura did to one with _two_ direct blows. Its cutting power is obviously potent. If she punches a fucking _spike_, she loses her hand and does no damage to Susano'o.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I see no hole, only a bruise.



​
The folds in the skin I highlighed in red, demonstrate the fact that there is a parting of the skin, surrounding a whole. Also in the more upclose scan you can see how the hole is shaded black, which indicates it is extremely deep if not going right through the Juubiling



> She also had no reason to hold back against the thing, so not buying that.


Why did Naruto just punch Kaguya when he used his Sexy Jutsu combo, instead of doing something more devastating. So on and so forth.

Here there is at least a reason to hold back (conserve chakra) and there is no reason to hit the Juubling with full force given the nature of her combo. In the cited above instances there is actually no reason to hold back, and more power would have been beneficial

So the argument your putting fourth falls flat on three accounts. 

- We have seen character hold back when they have no reason to (and in-fact have a reason not to hold back)

- Sakura did have a reason to hold back, and no reason to go full force

- We know Sakura is capable of stronger blows



> Mizukage's Corrosive Mist Kekkei genkai that melted through Ribcage Susano'o in a few seconds ≠ Katsuyu's featless acid.


By featless acid, you mean acid that melted through massive boulders in no time flat:
_basically out_

And was also indicated to be one of the few things able to actually put Orochimaru down, even when utilized by a smaller Katsuya:
Link removed

And stated in the DB that, "All things it touches will melt away, losing their shapes once and for all"

Kishi clearly wants the Acid to be seen as extremely potent.



> Funny thing is, Sakura was basically out of chakra before Jubidara even came along, so it's she was likely healed off panel by Naruto or something.


And you accuse me of fanfiction 

Firstly Sakura never states she's out of chakra. Your reading the bad translation.
Secondly Sakura never even drew on the Byakugo-Seal chakra except in a single instance when summoning Katsuya, before meeting with Juubidara, and there she didn't even open the seal much.



> That doesn't make sense. Kagutsuchi is fire, which doesn't possess durability.


If it doesn't possess durability it won't have any resistance to Sakura punch. However it does have durability as shape manipulation is applied. 



> Kagutsuchi sliced a Jubiling clean down the middle though , which is more damage that Sakura did to one with two direct blows. Its cutting power is obviously potent. If she punches a fucking spike, she loses her hand and does no damage to Susano'o.


Sakura two blows OKO'd mass Juubilings, so I have no clue what your talking about.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's dented.


The skin is pushed out, not pushed in. Therefore it's a hole rather than a dent. 

It also seems to me that at this point your just reaching for the most down-played version of events you can muster. First it's a bruise, than it's a dent.... 



> If characters hold back, it is often explained like in the situation where Kakashi punched Obito in the stomach instead of using Raikiri on him.


No it's not. I literally cited an instance where it was not explained, and it took me 2 seconds to think of that instance. With more time I could compile a list of over a hundred instances, if I so choose to. But if you really want to play this game I'll give you some instances and you can try to explain them to me, if you want.



> Sakura had no reason to be so stingy with her chakra that she lessens her punching strength because Naruto could funnel her chakra through the cloak.


She up against the Juubi, every bit of chakra counts. The alliance had already experienced the limitations of Naruto's chakra and him running out, so why exactly should she waste chakra and force Naruto to latter waste chakra, for absolutely no reason? 



> No, she isn't. At least I haven't seen any.


This assertion would entail:

A) Kaguya is not that much more durable than a Juubiling
B) Juubling is more durable than the Bijuu sized rocks that were being blown apart by Sakura ground pound alone
C) Sakura can't boost her Okasho w/ chakra stored in her Byakugo seal, despite that being in contrast with the stated mechanics of both Jutsu




> So Katsuyu's acid has feats of corroding rock.
> 
> Mei corroded Susano'o.
> Rock < Susano'o.


Your asserting Mei's Acid has vastly superior corrosive capabilities than Zenshi Nendan. Okay, well  let's break this down: 

Mei's Acid corroded the lowest variant of Susano'o over time. 
Zenshi Nendan corroded a giant rock formation instantly. 

For what you assert to be true, Rib-Cage Susano'o would have to be *vastly* more durable than the rock formation, considering Zenshi Nendan corroded the rock-formation much faster than Mei's Acid corroded Rib-Cage Susano'o.

Now where exactly are the feats from Rib-Cage Susano'o that suggests it's so much more durable than a massive rock formation? I could buy that it is more durable and therefore we would not see it corrode instantly like the massive rock-formation (though I feel that's a bit of stretch as well), but that as well as the difference necessary where it wouldn't even corrode at the same rate as Mei's acid (or potentially at all, if you prefer), would require an even further gap in durability. I really don't see the feats there or even the portrayal to substantiate that.



> Katsuyu can hypothetically corrode Orochimaru.
> 
> ...whom also doesn't compare to Susano'o in durability (as he can be injured by normal things such as Kunai which break on Susano'o).


Durability no, difficulty to put down, he is much more difficult to put down than Rib-Cage Susano'o,  If Orochimaru would be killed by the Acid, it must corrode him to nothing excessively quickly, as otherwise he'd regenerate, oral-rebirth, snake-split, etc, to escape it's effects. It's a testament to the speed and level of corrosion Zenshi Nendan is capable of and therefore how it's effectivness has been portrayed. 



> So since Katsuyu isn't Mizukage and doesn't have her feats, don't bring her up. Mei didn't even corrode Pefect Susano'o anyway, so I wonder why she was even brought up to begin with...


I didn't bring Mei up, I brought the effectiveness of acid against Susano'o up. Susano'o can't simply defend against Acid and be done with it. The Acid sits on Susano'o and continues to corrode it over time. Even if it takes a long time corrosion will occur. And I see no reason why this would not apply to P-Susano'o, as P-Susano'o doesn't suddenly gain an Acid immunity, it just becomes tougher and therefore will take longer to corrode.



> She outright says she doesn't have the chakra to perform medical ninjutsu anymore.


In the bad translation. In the good translation she says:

saku: to be honest… It would be better if… tsunade-sama… shizune-senpai and I…\\
saku: stop using medical techniques and begin to fight\\

Also even w/o the difference in translation a bit of solid common sense tells you that what your asserting makes no sense. Why? Because:

A) Sakura still has not just a Kyuubi-Cloak to give her chakra, but also still clearly has chakra stored in her Byakugo-seal as it has not faded away. Yet despite all of that you want to conclude she can't use a even a simple Shosen anymore

But more importantly

B) In the very same chapter she fricking uses medical Ninjutsu lol. So how can you sit here and assert that she could not use medical ninjutsu anymore:

​


> She says she's running out later on in that translation too


Actually I believe the aegon-rokudo translation is correct. 

And the only thing I can imagine you are referring to is when Sakura says, " my chakra is…\\"

Than she never completes the sentence. Most likely would have not ended with her saying her chakra is depleted, but rather that her chakra was not working to heal Naruto. This follows perfectly with the next scene we get of Sakura from Ch 663, where she doesn't say she stopped using Shosen because she ran out of chakra, but rather that shosen isn't working on Naruto.

Inversely the assumption that Sakura's chakra was depleted in that scene makes no sense, because:

A) We see Sakura still has the Byakugo-Seal, which indicate she still has chakra stored inside of it
B) We see Sakura go on to continue to use medical ninjutsu throughout all of ch 663, all of ch 664, all of ch 665, all of Ch 666
C) Even after all of that her Byakugo Seal is still not gone, nor did she dip into it's chakra even once



> You. Cannot. Punch. A. Spike.


Sakura can surely punch a spike, it would just pierce Sakura's hand. It would not stop any of the momentum or strength behind the attack, it would just tear Sakura's arm up in the process. Which is a moot point due to Byakugo. 

However this assumes that , the spike isn't blown to nothingness by the force of the chakra explosion emitted by Sakura's punch at the moment when her fist first makes contact with the spike, but before it pierces through her flesh. And consider that spike has zero durability feats that would make it come even close to realistically withstanding something like that, it gets blown away and does nothing.


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## Bonly (Aug 22, 2014)

Honestly the best I can see her beating is Immortals Arc Naruto more times then not but otherwise I don't see her beating any other the form of Naruto+Sasuke listed


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## Rocky (Aug 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> A) Kaguya is not that much more durable than a Juubiling
> B) Juubling is more durable than the Bijuu sized rocks that were being blown apart by Sakura ground pound alone
> C) Sakura can't boost her Okasho w/ chakra stored in her Byakugo seal, despite that being in contrast with the stated mechanics of both Jutsu



A- Kaguya's horn was cracked, but there was no dent/bruise/hole on her head, or any mark at all really.
B- Rocks are not durable (in comparison to other defenses in the shinobi world), and if you increase the amount of rock, rock doesn't magically become more durable.
C- That is what she did when she activated the Byakugo seal, considering the difference between the strength of her first punch and her second & third ones.



Your asserting Mei's Acid has vastly superior corrosive capabilities than Zenshi Nendan. Okay, well  let's break this down: 



> Mei's Acid corroded the lowest variant of Susano'o over time.
> Zenshi Nendan corroded a giant rock formation instantly.



....no I'm pretty sure Susano'o began corroding as soon as the mist filled the room. I don't know where "over time" came from.



> I didn't bring Mei up, I brought the effectiveness of acid against Susano'o up. Susano'o can't simply defend against Acid and be done with it. The Acid sits on Susano'o and continues to corrode it over time. Even if it takes a long time corrosion will occur. And I see no reason why this would not apply to P-Susano'o, as P-Susano'o doesn't suddenly gain an Acid immunity, it just becomes tougher and therefore will take longer to corrode.



The effectiveness of Mei's acid against Susano'o. Not all acid is equivalent in potency. Orochimaru and plain rock are eons below Perfect Susano'o in durability and Katsuyu's acid has no feats to suggest it would even melt PS _period._ 




> Actually I believe the aegon-rokudo translation is correct.



Who?



> Sakura can surely punch a spike, it would just pierce Sakura's hand. It would not stop any of the momentum or strength behind the attack, it would just tear Sakura's arm up in the process. Which is a moot point due to Byakugo.





Did you just seriously say punching a sharp object would not stop momentum?

Think of it this way. You want to punch me, but you have to strike through a sharpened pencil. Your punch isn't going to affect me in any way if you have to go through that pencil. Your fist would most likely fail to even get through the pencil to actually hit me.

I'm Susano'o, you are Sakura, and the pencil is Kagutsuchi. 



> However this assumes that , the spike isn't blown to nothingness by the force of the chakra explosion emitted by Sakura's punch at the moment when her fist first makes contact with the spike, but before it pierces through her flesh. And consider that spike has zero durability feats that would make it come even close to realistically withstanding something like that, it gets blown away and does nothing.



The miniscule portion of Sakura's fist the tip of the spike would connect with is not going to emit enough force to inflict any kind of meaningful damage on Enton. 

Even if that insane scenario were to play out, that means the chakra explosion was wasted on Kagutsuchi and not Susano'o. Going back to the analogy, the pencil may be shattered, by I'm perfect safe and able to counter hook you in the jaw.

Sakura iwould wide open to be grabbed by Susano'o on the follow-up and pink misted like Danzo was.


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## trance (Aug 22, 2014)

She beats Wind training Naruto and only if special circumstances are in her favor, Hebi Sasuke. She gets handily beaten by SM Naruto and MS Sasuke but I can see her pushing it to low difficulty. EMS Sasuke and BM Naruto rape with zero difficulty. Those are upper echelon Kage level ninja, approaching the power bracket that EMS Madara and Hashirama occupy. Only god tiers/Juubi jinchuriki are decisively superior. 

Her against current Nardo/Sauce is just like before but even more gruesome. Then again, not like the world wouldn't be better off without her.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> A- Kaguya's horn was cracked, but there was no dent/bruise/hole on her head, or any mark at all really.


Firstly please stop with the dent/bruise stuff, when we both know it's a hole.

Secondly I fail to see your point. Kaguya is so vastly more durable than a Juublings that the two are completely incomparable. If Sakura's hit on the Juubling was suppose to be seen as unimpressive as your making it out to be as well as being Sakura strongest punch, anyone being honest knows that Sakura's punch to Kaguya wouldn't have even put smallest of scratches on her.



> Rocks are not durable (in comparison to other defenses in the shinobi world), and if you increase the amount of rock, rock doesn't magically become more durable.


Your really sitting here and telling me that a rock the size of two story building is just as easy to be broken in half as a pebble. That is a ridiculous sentiment and completely in denial of what the author was trying to portray by drawing the rocks at that size.



> That is what she did when she activated the Byakugo seal, considering the difference between the strength of her first punch and her second & third ones.


No she did not activate the Byakugo-Seal. When the chakra stored in the Byakugo seal is released the seal opens up. It did not do so here.

The difference in striking force was due to the fact that she was no longer channeling a portion of her base chakra into the seal, allowing her a greater reserve to draw on empower Okasho further.



> ....no I'm pretty sure Susano'o began corroding as soon as the mist filled the room. I don't know where "over time" came from.


It started corroding, but was not melted into nothingness instantly as the rock formation was.



> The effectiveness of Mei's acid against Susano'o. Not all acid is equivalent in potency. Orochimaru and plain rock are eons below Perfect Susano'o in durability and Katsuyu's acid has no feats to suggest it would even melt PS period.


Your right not all Acid is equal in potency, but it's 

A) unlikely that Mei's acid is as vastly more potent than Zenshi Nendan as your claiming
B) Quantity can make up some of the difference and the amount of Katsuya can produce greater quantities of Acid
C) Even if less potent it will still corrode, just at a slower rate



> Who?


His translations are posted on Manga-Helpers and have a higher degree of accuracy



> Did you just seriously say punching a sharp object would not stop momentum?
> 
> Think of it this way. You want to punch me, but you have to strike through a sharpened pencil. Your punch isn't going to affect me in any way if you have to go through that pencil. Your fist would most likely fail to even get through the pencil to actually hit me.


Lol, bring the pencil, i'll bring my fist, we'll see if you get hurt

For a spike to stop a fist, it needs to cover the entire area of the fist as well as be durable enough stop the strike w/o breaking itself. If it's smaller than the fist, the spike will just go through one part of the fist and the rest of the fist will still hit the person. If the spike isn't durable enough it will simply shatter under the force of the initial impact



> The miniscule portion of Sakura's fist the tip of the spike would connect with is not going to emit enough force to inflict any kind of meaningful damage on Enton.


Firstly if the spike is only touching a miniscule portion of the fist all it would do is pierce that part of the fist while the rest of the fist would just continue on forward hitting the enemy. 

Secondly even if it received 1/10th of Sakura's striking power it would be obliterate, considering Enton has no tanking feats period, let alone anything even remotely close to 1/10th of the striking force from Okasho.



> Even if that insane scenario were to play out, that means the chakra explosion was wasted on Kagutsuchi and not Susano'o. Going back to the analogy, the pencil may be shattered, by I'm perfect safe and able to counter hook you in the jaw.


Lol, the penicl would be shattered and the force would continue towards you. Unless the spike is durable enough to withstand all of the force, all it will do is absorb whatever amount of force it can take before being blown away, and the rest of that force will continue on hitting the target. I mean why the heck do you think Kishi portrayed Sasuke as still in danger from Ei's leg drop if Enton would have magically absorb all of the force behind the strike; and Ei's leg drop is absolutely nothing compared to Sakura's Okasho.



> Sakura iwould wide open to be grabbed by Susano'o on the follow-up and pink misted like Danzo was.


Except Sasuke would be blown away, and even if that's not the case she'd summon Katsuya and the size of Katsuya body would force the fist open, and even if she does not do that she'd touch her finger to the side of the fist blowing it open as Okasho can be used from a single finger, and even if she did not do that she'd survive with Byakugo.


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## StickaStick (Aug 23, 2014)

Any iteration of Naruto and Sasuke below BSM and EMS gets mid to low diff'd. 

Sakura can beat BSM Naruto or EMS Sasuke but it would require extremely-high difficulty and Sakura being able to summon a sizable portion of Katsuyu.

Any higher iteration than those and she's firmly out of her league.


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## Rocky (Aug 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Your really sitting here and telling me that a rock the size of two story building is just as easy to be broken in half as a pebble. That is a ridiculous sentiment and completely in denial of what the author was trying to portray by drawing the rocks at that size.



Durability has nothing to do with size. This is why the Ten Tails was far more drable than the God Tree despite being far smaller. 



> Your right not all Acid is equal in potency, but it's
> 
> A) unlikely that Mei's acid is as vastly more potent than Zenshi Nendan as your claiming
> B) Quantity can make up some of the difference and the amount of Katsuya can produce greater quantities of Acid
> C) Even if less potent it will still corrode, just at a slower rate



You don't get it.

There is no evidence that Katsuyu (or Mei) have acid that's, well, acidic enough to actually corrode Perfect Susano'o in any reasonable amount of time. Just like soda is not acidic enough to corrode us humans.



> His translations are posted on Manga-Helpers and have a higher degree of accuracy



Can you post them and links to what we discussed?



> Lol, bring the pencil, i'll bring my fist, we'll see if you get hurt



If I hold out a sharpened pencil and you punch the point, it's not going to be me.



> If the spike isn't durable enough it will simply shatter under the force of the initial impact



You know, an Amaterasu spike shattering in Sakura's face is probably detrimental to her.



> Lol, the penicl would be shattered and the force would continue towards you. Unless the spike is durable enough to withstand all of the force, all it will do is absorb whatever amount of force it can take before being blown away, and the rest of that force will continue on hitting the target.



Not in Sakura's case, because the force behind her punch is a mere explosion of chakra at impact. That explosion would be wasted on the spike and her normal strength is what would continue on to hit Susano'o.

Not that it matters.



> Except Sasuke would be blown away, and even if that's not the case she'd summon Katsuya and the size of Katsuya body would force the fist open, and even if she does not do that she'd touch her finger to the side of the fist blowing it open as Okasho can be used from a single finger, and even if she did not do that she'd survive with Byakugo.



LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLetc.

Sakura can't blow away Perfect Susano'o. She can't even make that thing budge as her striking force is still pathetic when compared to Bijūdama, which PS no-selled. Seriously, Tsunade has striking strength that is only slightly inferior if not on par with Sakura, and the best she could do with her fist was crack the fucking RIBCAGE.

Her _finger_ is not overpowering Perfect Susano'o's fucking gripping strength when even MS Stage 2 Susano'o could crush humans into nothingness.

And she isn't surviving shit with Byakugo. All that does is speed up mitosis, meaning it can't bring you back to life if you're killed instantly. 

Sasuke tosses her into the air and smashes her with the flat of a fire sword like a baseball.

And it's outta here. Walk off Home Run GFG.


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 23, 2014)

The Format said:


> Any iteration of Naruto and Sasuke below BSM and EMS gets mid to low diff'd.



Are you serious?

Tell me how she beats War Arc Sage Naruto or Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto.



> Sakura can beat BSM Naruto or EMS Sasuke but it would require extremely-high difficulty and Sakura being able to summon a sizable portion of Katsuyu.



L-O-L

Shut the fuck up, there is absolutely nothing Sakura can do to counter a barrage of Tailed Beast Bombs, and Katsuyu is doing nothing but getting vaporized in the process, not matter how large she gets.


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## Jagger (Aug 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Lol, bring the pencil, i'll bring my fist, we'll see if you get hurt


Jesus fucking Christ, Turrin. Calm down, we're having a polite discussion, not trying to kill someone.


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 23, 2014)

lol at Turrin thinking Katsuyu's acid does remotely anything to Perfect Susano'o


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## Rocky (Aug 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Shut the fuck up, there is absolutely nothing Sakura can do to counter a barrage of Tailed Beast Bombs, and Katsuyu is doing nothing but getting vaporized in the process, not matter how large she gets.



There is no need for Bijūdama.

Sakura cannot perceive Naruto's body flicker. He speed blitzes her and shoves a Mini Bijūdama down her throat.


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## Kyu (Aug 23, 2014)

> Sakura can beat BSM Naruto or EMS Sasuke



God, I hope you aren't serious.


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## trance (Aug 23, 2014)

The Format said:


> Any iteration of Naruto and Sasuke below BSM and EMS gets mid to low diff'd.
> 
> Sakura can beat BSM Naruto or EMS Sasuke but it would require extremely-high difficulty and Sakura being able to summon a sizable portion of Katsuyu.





Proof of Sakura capable of even denting Sauce's Perfect Susanoo?

Proof of Sakura capable of tagging BSM Naruto?


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2014)

The Format said:


> Any iteration of Naruto and Sasuke below BSM and EMS gets mid to low diff'd.
> 
> Sakura can beat BSM Naruto or EMS Sasuke but it would require extremely-high difficulty and Sakura being able to summon a sizable portion of Katsuyu.
> 
> Any higher iteration than those and she's firmly out of her league.



>Sakura beating BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke

  

She get stomped by both figurately and literally


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## Jad (Aug 23, 2014)

Sakura was always a threat to a good majority of the cast when it came to her striking power. No doubt. But her skill is just not there, it really isn't. That's going to fail her almost all the time, all day every day, 24/7 McDonalds open for service, 7/11 we open for business.


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Durability has nothing to do with size. This is why the Ten Tails was far more drable than the God Tree despite being far smaller.


The size of a rock absolutely has to do with the difficulty to break it apart. The Ten-Tails and Shinju are totally different materials, and are magical entities, so why they would be use to argue against a very simple concept, I have absolutely no clue.



> There is no evidence that Katsuyu (or Mei) have acid that's, well, acidic enough to actually corrode Perfect Susano'o in any reasonable amount of time. Just like soda is not acidic enough to corrode us humans.


Now your arguing something different against a point directed towards you stating Mei's Acid is much better than Katsuya's acid. 

Anyway I don't see a reason to believe that P-Susano'o is completely immune to being corroded by Acid. It may take longer or take a larger volume of Acid, but the fact that all the stages bellow it corrode over time from Acid, despite each scaling in power dramatically, does not suggest to me that the increase in power of each Susano'o stage is enough to provide outright immunity.



> Can you post them and links to what we discussed?


_dodged_



> If I hold out a sharpened pencil and you punch the point, it's not going to be me.


A couple things will happen if you did that

A) The pencil will be knocked to the side, if it is not held in place by something that can withstand the force of my punch
B) The pencil will break in half if it can not withstand the force of my punch
C) Worst case scenario Pencil will go through my hand while my punch will continue forward hitting you.



> You know, an Amaterasu spike shattering in Sakura's face is probably detrimental to her.


No I do not know that because the flames will be pushed backwards from the force of the chakra explosion rather than landing on Sakura.



> Not in Sakura's case, because the force behind her punch is a mere explosion of chakra at impact. That explosion would be wasted on the spike and her normal strength is what would continue on to hit Susano'o.


Except once again that relies on the spiking taking all of that force, otherwise the explosion would radiate outwards



> Sakura can't blow away Perfect Susano'o. She can't even make that thing budge as her striking force is still pathetic when compared to Bijūdama, which PS no-selled.


Unless i'm forgetting something, when did EMS-Sasuke's P-Susano'o no-sell a Bijuu-dama. Are you just giving it Madara's EMS-Susano'o feats?



> Seriously, Tsunade has striking strength that is only slightly inferior if not on par with Sakura, and the best she could do with her fist was crack the fucking RIBCAGE.


First off Tsunade blew through Madara's Rib-Cage Susano'o, sending Madara flying into a cliff. Secondly Madara's Susano'o is stronger than Sasuke's, mostly because he had Hashirama's Senju's DNA enhancing him. In comparison Ei blew through Sasuke's Rib-Cage Susano'o, while he didn't do anything to Madara's.

So I think this is an under sell of Tsunade. She could most likely bust higher variants of Sasuke's Susano'o than just his Rib-Cage form.

Moving on from that all that Hashirama stated was:

"hashi: what incredible superhuman strength… maybe she is even better than tsunade\\"

Hashirama is speculating that Sakura could be better than Tsunade. Sakura later goes on to demonstrate she is much better than Tsunade in her feat against Kaguy, which does not at all contradict Hashirama's statement. Basically Hashi put forth a question; is she better than Tsunade. We got the answer from her Kaguya feat.



> Her finger is not overpowering Perfect Susano'o's fucking gripping strength when even MS Stage 2 Susano'o could crush humans into nothingness.


Crushing humans is a paltry thing in comparison to force of Sakura's Okasho, that can send Bijuu sized rocks flying, when she isn't even using her strongest Base-Okasho and isn't using any Byakugo-Chakra to enhance it. Please show me these feats of gripping force that suggest Susano'o can keep it's hand clenched when such incredible force is being exerted



> And she isn't surviving shit with Byakugo. All that does is speed up mitosis, meaning it can't bring you back to life if you're killed instantly.



DBII, "If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injuried that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. It's impossible to die by any means..."



> Sasuke tosses her into the air and smashes her with the flat of a fire sword like a baseball.


Only to get Massive Katsuya FCD on his ass and crushed.

Edit: I also feel I should mention here that they way your arguing EMS-Sasuke is completely unfair and unrealistic. You act as if P-Susano'o will be up the entire battle, when EMS-Sauske primarily did not use EMS-Susano'o, and only utilized it for a short duration to strike a final blow against Juubito. Yet suddenly he both IC will and physical can spam it constantly. On-top of that you also have him stacking multiple other MS jutsu on-top of P-Susano'o, when did EMS Sasuke even show he could utilize other MS Jutsu at the same time as his P-Susano'o, let alone utilize them w/o said utilization exhausting him dramatically ? It's like your arguing God-Moe Sasuke, instead of EMS-Sasuke.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Moving on from that all that Hashirama stated was:
> 
> "hashi: what incredible superhuman strength? maybe she is even better than tsunade\\"
> 
> Hashirama is speculating that Sakura could be better than Tsunade. Sakura later goes on to demonstrate she is much better than Tsunade in her feat against Kaguy, which does not at all contradict Hashirama's statement.



The contradiction arises in the fact that if Sakura were truly "_much_ better" than Tsunade it should have been clear to Hashirama who was superior. But it wasn't. "Might" would only be there if Tsunade could produce something at least very comparable to the explosion Sakura brought about when she was even doing her trademark "shannaro" (from which one can reasonably conclude she was putting her best into that hit). Such is further supported by Shizune being more impressed that Sakura could use the distance healing technique than being able to produce an explosion of that magnitude.



> DBII, "If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injuried that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. It's impossible to die by any means..."



It seems a little dishonest to keep leaving out the rest of the paragraph like that.

"It's impossible to die by any means... for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one's comrades. That's the resolution hidden in this technique."

Unless you're going to just be asinine and claim that regeneration is some unconditional win card that will let Sakura tank things like Jinton and the Ten Tails' Bijūdama "impossible to die by any means" is nothing but the resolve Tsunade had behind the technique when she came up with it. It is not a continuation of the description of the Jutsu's mechanics, it is just a highlight of what Tsunade wanted to achieve with the Jutsu.

Sakura can obviously die. Instantaneous death would negate Byakugō.


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## StickaStick (Aug 23, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> >Sakura beating BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke
> 
> 
> 
> She get stomped by both figurately and literally


That's ironic considering there's a better chance Sakura drops a 30-40% (or more) Katsuyu on their heads then she herself actually being stomped/crushed. 

But carry on.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2014)

The Format said:


> That's ironic considering there's a better chance Sakura drops a 30-40% (or more) Katsuyu on their heads then she herself actually being stomped/crushed.
> 
> But carry on.



Katsuyu won't do anything to the Kurama Avatar at all. Same for PS.
She either get blow up by Bijuudama or killed over time via Amaterasu
And proof Sakura can drop Katsuya on their head?


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## Rocky (Aug 23, 2014)

The Format said:


> That's ironic considering there's a better chance Sakura drops a 30-40% (or more) Katsuyu on their heads then she herself actually being stomped/crushed.
> 
> But carry on.



She cannot summon that.  

Even if she could, she'd have to be absolutely nowhere bear then In order to avoid being crushed herself.


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The contradiction arises in the fact that if Sakura were truly "_much_ better" than Tsunade it should have been clear to Hashirama who was superior. But it wasn't. "Might" would only be there if Tsunade could produce something at least very comparable to the explosion Sakura brought about when she was even doing her trademark "shannaro" (from which one can reasonably conclude she was putting her best into that hit). Such is further supported by Shizune being more impressed that Sakura could use the distance healing technique than being able to produce an explosion of that magnitude.


Actually the "might" would simply be there because Hashirama had not seen Tsunade in years and he doesn't know if the Okasho Sakura used against the Juublings was her strongest attack. So he has two variables that he can't possible know, hence him posing the question, rather than him outright stating such. 



> It seems a little dishonest to keep leaving out the rest of the paragraph like that.
> 
> "It's impossible to die by any means... for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one's comrades. That's the resolution hidden in this technique."
> 
> Unless you're going to just be asinine and claim that regeneration is some unconditional win card that will let Sakura tank things like Jinton and the Ten Tails' Bijūdama "impossible to die by any means" is nothing but the resolve Tsunade had behind the technique when she came up with it. It is not a continuation of the description of the Jutsu's mechanics, it is just a highlight of what Tsunade wanted to achieve with the Jutsu.


You say dishonest, but I never once heard that interpretation of the text. 

And no I do not think that's correct. I think it was Tsunade's resolution that made her develop the technique, but the can't die in battle line was not a reference to some fantasy of what Tsunade wanted to achieve but did not; it's very clearly a reference to what she stated in the Sannin-Arc:
running circles

And no I do not need to believe Tsunade is invincible with Byakugo activated to believe her words, about not being able to die in battle. Why? Because it comes down to the simple fact that Tsunade does not know about every technique or ability in the Naruto-World. She says she's invincible, but we can interpret that to mean very simply that she has not seen a Technique yet that would be able to kill her while she's utilizing the Byakugo-Seal. Considering w/ the power of Byakugo she's survived both CST and Madara's P-Susano'o, i'm more than willing to believe that most Jutsu in the verse would not be able to kill a Byakugo-user, thus supporting the credibility of Tsunade's statement. 



> Sakura can obviously die. Instantaneous death would negate Byakugō.


Your just assuming this based on nothing.


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## Trojan (Aug 23, 2014)

Rocky

your choice of colour is goddamn awful. 


*Spoiler*: __ 










As for Sakura she has a fair chance of defeating KCM Naruto and early EMS Sasuke. That how she was portrayed. Especially with the additional punch that did more damge to Kaguya that Sasuke's PS, regardless of the poor excuses people put for Sasuke for him to not be embarrassed.


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## Kyu (Aug 23, 2014)

> As for Sakura she has a fair chance of defeating KCM Naruto and early EMS Sasuke



KCM is faster than Ei at max speed.

Enlighten me, how is Sakura avoiding getting blitzed?


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Rocky
> 
> your choice of colour is goddamn awful.
> 
> ...



What feat does Kaguya's horn have again?


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## Trojan (Aug 23, 2014)

Kyu said:


> KCM is faster than Ei at max speed.
> Enlighten me, how is Sakura avoiding getting blitzed?



A, KCM Naruto, Tobirama, 3rd Raikage...etc are faster than Hashirama.
Do you believe that he will get blitzed? 
+
It's not like Naruto use his full speed non-stop he barely used it twice. @>@


Hachibi said:


> What feat does Kaguya's horn have again?



Not being broken by current Sasuke's PS...


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> As for Sakura she has a fair chance of defeating KCM Naruto and early EMS Sasuke. That how she was portrayed. Especially with the additional punch that did more damge to Kaguya that Sasuke's PS, regardless of the poor excuses people put for Sasuke for him to not be embarrassed.



She absolutely does NOT have a fair chance of defeating either.

She won't even realize where Naruto is until a Wind Style: Rasenshuriken gets shoved into her back.


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## Trojan (Aug 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> She absolutely does NOT have a fair chance of defeating either.
> 
> She won't even realize where Naruto is until a Wind Style: Rasenshuriken gets shoved into her back.



Kishi disagree.


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Kishi disagree.



Enlighten me.


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## Trojan (Aug 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Enlighten me.



"Tsunade sama, I finally caught up to them" 
or something along this line.

He portrayed them as such and that they have surpassed the Sannin, the whole volume was about that. 

Well, of course with fan fictional scenarios like

A character will do this, then B character will do this, but too bad A character will do this and win...
Yeah, she probably would lose.

It's the same BS people use like "Amatersu GG" when it's utter crap jutsu in the manga that defeat none, but with fan-fiction it's broken...etc 

the thing is, in the manga it does not follow this logic, and whatever kishi thinks, it's the true thing...
simple. U_U


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> "Tsunade sama, I finally caught up to them"
> or something along this line.
> 
> He portrayed them as such and that they have surpassed the Sannin, the whole volume was about that.



So any self-aggrandizing statement from a character is automatically deemed as the author's portrayal and is as such, valid? 

Do you also agree with ridiculous claims such as Kabuto calling himself closer to the Sage of the Six Paths than anyone else, Suigetsu calling one of the Seven Swordsmen's blades capable of breaking any defense, Itachi saying only a Sharingan can beat another Sharingan, all true as well?

Sakura thinking that she's surpassed them is one thing. Portrayal is quite another.



> the thing is, in the manga it does not follow this logic, and whatever kishi thinks, it's the true thing...
> simple. U_U



There are *metric fucktons* of statements uttered in this manga that anyone with a functioning pulse can see are not validated by the manga itself.

If you're fool enough to follow anything the author 'says' without a fault - if Kishimoto showed an explosion levelling an entire city and later had one of his characters say, 'that blast only destroyed a couple of blocks!', would you accede to his word, or agree with what the manga has actually demonstrated to us?


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## FlamingRain (Aug 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Actually the "might" would simply be there because Hashirama had not seen Tsunade in years and he doesn't know if the Okasho Sakura used against the Juublings was her strongest attack.



So Hashirama isn't sure if Sakura's stronger than Toddlernade or not? Hashirama doesn't need to know if that was her strongest attack, for the purpose of the comparison he drew all he needs to know is the power of that particular attack- he was comparing the power of _that_ attack to Tsunade's, and its power is clear in the amount of destruction it caused. What isn't clear is that it's superior to Tsunade's, exemplified not only in Hashirama's statement but also in Shizune (who you can't say hasn't seen Tsunade in years) finding the fact that Sakura could even perform the distance healing technique to be more noteworthy than the destruction of the Ōkashō impact.



> You say dishonest, but I never once heard that interpretation of the text.



Interpretation as in my interpretation? Or as in the translation that I based my sentiments on? If it's the latter, I find it highly unlikely that you somehow always manage to stop reading at such a convenient point in the description.



> I think it was Tsunade's resolution that made her develop the technique, but the can't die in battle line was not a reference to some fantasy of what Tsunade wanted to achieve but did not; it's very clearly a reference to what she stated in the Sannin-Arc:
> Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot



It being a reference to what Tsunade said in the Search for Tsunade Arc simply means that Tsunade was voicing her resolution in said arc.

Syntax is important. "That's the resolution hidden in this technique" is written _as the antecedent to_ "It is impossible to die by any means...for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one's comrades."



> And no I do not need to believe Tsunade is invincible with Byakugo activated to believe her words, about not being able to die in battle. Why? Because it comes down to the simple fact that Tsunade does not know about every technique or ability in the Naruto-World. She says she's invincible, but we can interpret that to mean very simply that she has not seen a Technique yet that would be able to kill her while she's utilizing the Byakugo-Seal. Considering w/ the power of Byakugo she's survived both CST and Madara's P-Susano'o, i'm more than willing to believe that most Jutsu in the verse would not be able to kill a Byakugo-user, thus supporting the credibility of Tsunade's statement.



Either she absolutely cannot die fullstop, or she can die. It's a yes or no question, Turrin, there is no in-between. If you take her words to be the truth you take her words to maintain that she can tank things like Jinton and all that jazz, and if not then her words are merely the sign of her resolution, because apparently Tsunade was familiar with Mū's abilities.

Tsunade survived CST's knock back and Madara's rampage for no reason other than those injuries were not instant-deaths for her. It was not due to her regeneration because in the case of the former she had poured all her Chakra out to the rest of the villagers and in the case of the latter her regeneration technique was not active when she summoned Katsuyu.



> Your just assuming this based on nothing.



It's called logic. It's what smart people use to make provisional conclusions.


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade survived CST's knock back



Just out of curiosity - why do you claim this? Why don't we assume Tsunade survived with Katsuyu like we do everyone else?


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## Bonly (Aug 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Just out of curiosity - why do you claim this? Why don't we assume Tsunade survived with Katsuyu like we do everyone else?



If I remember correctly there was no pieces of the Great Katsuyu-Sama near Tsunade when Deva path used CST nor did we see any pieces of the Great Katsuyu-Sama near her after it


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## Trojan (Aug 23, 2014)

> =ATastyMuffin;51545611]So any self-aggrandizing statement from a character is automatically deemed as the author's portrayal and is as such, valid?



Again, Kishi spent an entire damn volume to get that point across. 


> Do you also agree with ridiculous claims such as Kabuto calling himself closer to the Sage of the Six Paths than anyone else, Suigetsu calling one of the Seven Swordsmen's blades capable of breaking any defense, Itachi saying only a Sharingan can beat another Sharingan, all true as well?
> 
> Sakura thinking that she's surpassed them is one thing. Portrayal is quite another.


I must have missed that part where Kishi spent the entire volume to portrayed them as such, and
then re-telling the same statement latter on. 


There are *metric fucktons* of statements uttered in this manga that anyone with a functioning pulse can see are not validated by the manga itself.


> If you're fool enough to follow anything the author 'says' without a fault - if Kishimoto showed an explosion levelling an entire city and later had one of his characters say, 'that blast only destroyed a couple of blocks!', would you accede to his word, or agree with what the manga has actually demonstrated to us?[/COLOR



lol
Except he did point by point, step by step. 
Kishi did not even make Naruto use BM or Sasuke to have PS. He made Naruto specifically use
KCM alone, and Sasuke to lack PS. 

to make all of them use the summoning jutsu, and to portray all of them to the Sannin who are on the same level specifically.  

Even though the statements are not to be taken lightly. The same was saying about the 8gates
before and how it's not true, until Kishi slapped those people with his cock making guy fight with JJ Madara, the same thing about Sharingan-Byakuga origin...etc

But I suppose some people never learn. 

anyway, creating scenarios is just so pointless and lead to endless debates. that's my take of how Kishi portrayed them...


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## OG Appachai (Aug 23, 2014)

@Hussain


OG Appachai said:


> So lets see if she really caught up to naruto and sasuke FEAT WISE because F*ck Portrayal (you know who you are).




ppl should really read the OP lol


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## Rocky (Aug 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The size of a rock absolutely has to do with the difficulty to break it apart.



I'm not questioning that, because we aren't talking about splitting the rock formation apart like that. Since acid eats away at material, the amount of damage it can do to vulnerable material is essentially based on the volume of acid used. 

...but that doesn't matter if the acid cannot effectively corrode the material in question. There are things Soda can corrode because it is acidic, but if I submerge you in Pepsi, you won't start dissolving. 



> Anyway I don't see a reason to believe that P-Susano'o is completely immune to being corroded by Acid. It may take longer or take a larger volume of Acid, but the fact that all the stages bellow it corrode over time from Acid, despite each scaling in power dramatically, does not suggest to me that the increase in power of each Susano'o stage is enough to provide outright immunity.



This is baseless, or based on the wrong thing, I should say. The effect acid has Susano'o's lower stages is irrelevant to our debate, because Perfect Susano'o could very easily be too tough to corrode, even if Stage 3 Susano'o is not.

So far, Katsuyu's acid has only been tested on rock. Since it has no other feats, let's just agree to disagree, because there is no way to reach a conclusion.



> Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot



In this translation, Tusande says that Sakura should only have a "little" left. 



> Everything involving the spike



I'm tired of going back and fourth on that point. If needed, Sasuke can skewer her all ever with long spikes to prevent her from coming near Susano'o.

In the case where she actually punches the fire and it somehow explodes, Sasuke can use that opening (her punching the fire) to being his blade down on her head...



> Unless i'm forgetting something, when did EMS-Sasuke's P-Susano'o no-sell a Bijuu-dama. Are you just giving it Madara's EMS-Susano'o feats?



Admittedly, yes. Since Sasuke's EMS Perfect Susano'o is largely untested, I'm scaling to the other EMS user, rather than his Rinnegan Susano'o.



> First off Tsunade blew through Madara's Rib-Cage Susano'o, sending Madara flying into a cliff. Secondly Madara's Susano'o is stronger than Sasuke's, mostly because he had Hashirama's Senju's DNA enhancing him. In comparison Ei blew through Sasuke's Rib-Cage Susano'o, while he didn't do anything to Madara's.



Tsunade's kick that blew though Madara's was a combination attack involving Mei, Ōnoki, A, and herself. Her punch only cracked the Ribcage. 

Furthermore, Madara's Susano'o has proven more durable than Sasuke's Mangekyō Susano'o, but not his Eternal Mangekyō construct.

Lastly, Madara's being stronger because of Hashirama's DNA was never said anywhere ever.



> Sakura later goes on to demonstrate she is much better than Tsunade in her feat against Kaguya.



Breaking off a horn that has not been properly tested is not in any way evidence of superiority over Tsunade. Tsunade hasn't ever hit that horn, and it's never survived a direct hot from anything as strong as Tsunade.



> Please show me these feats of gripping force that suggest Susano'o can keep it's hand clenched when such incredible force is being exerted



Show me the feats of these finger flick Okashos first. 



> Only to get Massive Katsuya FCD on his ass and crushed.



That would be suicide. Much like Madara's meteor, it would be too big to evade and Sakura would crush herself.

That said, she can't summon a big enough Katsuyu to bust Perfect Susano'o with FCD, so it doesn't matter.



> She says she's invincible, but we can interpret that to mean very simply that she has not seen a Technique yet that would be able to kill her while she's utilizing the Byakugo-Seal.



She has seen Jinton.

Jinton would kill her.

So you are wrong.

Again.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 23, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> @Hussain
> 
> 
> 
> ppl should really read the OP lol



oh well. 
whatever, I don't care enough for Sakura anyway...  
(until she carries Narudo's babies that is)


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 23, 2014)

Bonly said:


> If I remember correctly there was no pieces of the Great Katsuyu-Sama near Tsunade when Deva path used CST nor did we see any pieces of the Great Katsuyu-Sama near her after it



There were no pieces of Katsuyu near the ANBU fodder next to her either.

So are we going to assume that one random dude also has amazing durability or what?



> Originally Posted by* Hussain*
> Again, Kishi spent an entire damn volume to get that point across.



He did? He showed us one page of Sakura displaying one instance of impressive strength.

I don't know what ignorant, delusional world you operate in, but if that one feat screams to you that Kishimoto's trying to tell us she's equal to the likes of Naruto and Sasuke, but it sure as fuck doesn't compare to _Wind Style: Rasenshuriken, Amaterasu_, Naruto's incredible speed feats in _Nine-Tails Chakra Mode_, etc.



> I must have missed that part where Kishi spent the entire volume to portrayed them as such, and
> then re-telling the same statement latter on.



He spent one chapter on Sakura's *belief *that she caught up. 

It's not even Naruto and Sasuke telling us directly that she was equal, they didn't say anything at all. That's what holding me back from agreeing that she's 'caught up'.

That, and the feats she's shown that DRAMATICALLY underperform relative to her peers.



> ol
> Except he did point by point, step by step.
> Kishi did not even make Naruto use BM or Sasuke to have PS. He made Naruto specifically use
> KCM alone, and Sasuke to lack PS.



And you think them being restricted like that actually succeeds in having them lowered to Sakura's level?

Can you explain to me objectively why, using feats, how she's on their level even when not using their full power?

Tell me how that one powerful punch holds a candle to legged _Susano'o, Amaterasu, Rasenshuriken, Flash Shunshin_, etc.



> to make all of them use the summoning jutsu, and to portray all of them to the Sannin who are on the same level specifically.



That's not showing that they're on the same level, it's a throwback to each of the Sannin using the same summons, hence the parallel. 

It doesn't necessitate what you're implying at all.



> anyway, creating scenarios is just so pointless and lead to endless debates. that's my take of how Kishi portrayed them...



Okay, so concession accepted.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Just out of curiosity - why do you claim this? Why don't we assume Tsunade survived with Katsuyu like we do everyone else?



Does it really matter?

If she survived with Katsuyu she still survived for some reason besides just her regeneration.


But to answer your question, I claim it because we see Tsunade tell Katsuyu to take her Chakra and attach herself to the each of the villagers (Tsunade even needing to hurry her along- likely because she was worried about the fact that Tsunade herself would be left unprotected since all the slugs slithered out _away_ from where Tsunade was), we see before Deva shows up that Tsunade says Katsuyu is attending to virtually everyone in the village, and after CST's dust clears we see everyone being expelled from Katsuyu, and yet not a single one of those aforementioned details applies to Tsunade herself who was last seen in the air with no Katsuyu near her and only two Anbu Black Ops members that go missing after the blast (The one seen with her after the blast has longer spikes in his hair, a difference we could see from the others when Deva appeared and the Anbu surrounded Tsunade, so we can say this Anbu is different and we don't know where he came in from or whether or not he was protected. Even if we were to assume that this Anbu was also unprotected it'll just mean he and Tsunade were more durable than the other Anbu which all disappeared and were never heard from again as well as the other ninja in the village that needed to be surrounded by Katsuyu).


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> So Hashirama isn't sure if Sakura's stronger than Toddlernade or not? Hashirama doesn't need to know if that was her strongest attack, for the purpose of the comparison he drew all he needs to know is the power of that particular attack- he was comparing the power of _that_ attack to Tsunade's, and its power is clear in the amount of destruction it caused. What isn't clear is that it's superior to Tsunade's, exemplified not only in Hashirama's statement but also in Shizune (who you can't say hasn't seen Tsunade in years) finding the fact that Sakura could even perform the distance healing technique to be more noteworthy than the destruction of the Ōkashō impact.


Please show me the part of the statement where Hashirama says he is comparing Sakura to toddler Tsunade. Oh you can't and are just basing this off of a flashback. Yeah that's terrible logic at it's finest. Might as well say when Kakashi is talking about Naruto's strength he is referring to 12 Yo Naruto just because he flashes back to that Naruto from time to time. 

And yes Sakura's Okasho was not enough to say for sure her striking power is better than Tsunade's, why because Hashirama hasn't seen Tsunade in years. Tsunade could have reached the level where she can punch the earth apart in a single blow for all he knows. If I haven't seen a person play chess in several decades, than I see another person play a vastly better game of chess i'm still not going to say person-B is certainly better than person-a, because I haven't seen the grow of person-a in several decades. Instead I'd say exactly what Hashirama did that person-b may be better than person-a, as person-b played a much better game than person-b ever did 

Shizune not commenting on her striking force is an even more terrible argument. It's like saying well Kakashi never said anything about Oddoma-Rasengan being better than Minato, therefore Minato's Rasengan must still be better than than Oddoma-Rasengan. Insert a million other instances here.



> Interpretation as in my interpretation? Or as in the translation that I based my sentiments on? If it's the latter, I find it highly unlikely that you somehow always manage to stop reading at such a convenient point in the description.


Didn't stop reading, the text just doesn't say what your asserting it does. And the fact that it's an allusion to what Tsunade said to Orochimaru is so fricken obvious, that I never though someone would try and pass it off as anything else. 



> It being a reference to what Tsunade said in the Search for Tsunade Arc simply means that Tsunade was voicing her resolution in said arc.
> 
> Syntax is important. "That's the resolution hidden in this technique" is written as the antecedent to "It is impossible to die by any means...for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one's comrades."


LOL this is just sad. Tsunade voiced it in context of the mechanics of the technique, that is so clear that I can only assume your straight up lying at this point.



> Either she absolutely cannot die fullstop, or she can die. It's a yes or no question, Turrin, there is no in-between. If you take her words to be the truth you take her words to maintain that she can tank things like Jinton and all that jazz, and if not then her words are merely the sign of her resolution, because apparently Tsunade was familiar with Mū's abilities


No it's not. Tsunade is not infalible nor does she know of every technique in existence. Just because she thinks she can't die doesn't mean a new technique can't be later revealed that would indeed kill her



> Tsunade survived CST's knock back and Madara's rampage for no reason other than those injuries were not instant-deaths for her. It was not due to her regeneration because in the case of the former she had poured all her Chakra out to the rest of the villagers and in the case of the latter her regeneration technique was not active when she summoned Katsuyu.


I'm sure being curshed to nothing and cut in half by a Bijuu comparable sword slash is not instant death.



> t's called logic. It's what smart people use to make provisional conclusions.


Wow you know the definition of logic, color me impressed.


----------



## Kyu (Aug 24, 2014)

> A, KCM Naruto, Tobirama, 3rd Raikage...etc are faster than Hashirama.
> Do you believe that he will get blitzed?




....No, because Hashirama has reaction feats to back his shit up.

The dude outpaced 100% Kurama's BD & constantly fought EMS Madara in close quarters combat on equal terms. Hashi operates on a another level and while he may not be as fast as a couple of those you mentioned in terms of movement-speed, he's faster than Sakura by a vast margin.

Sakura is basically a younger Tsunade minus the durability, combat experience and self-respect.

KCM kicks her head clean off in a fight.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Kyu said:


> ....No, because Hashirama has reaction feats to back his shit up.
> 
> The dude outpaced 100% Kurama's BD & constantly fought EMS Madara in close quarters combat on equal terms. Hashi operates on a another level and while he may not be as fast as a couple of those you mentioned in terms of movement-speed, he's faster than Sakura by a vast margin.
> 
> ...



Sorry, but he did not outpace shit. 
Hashirama was already ahead of Madara and his PS, and when Madara used his TBB, Hashirama just landed directly and used the Gates, how the heck is that outpacing?  

Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
look closely, the first 3 panels, Hashirama was already running forward

THEN at the end of that page Kurama was preparing his TBB

Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
Hashirama FROM BEFORE was already ahead of it, and when Madara fired it off, Hashirama landed
immediately, I think that's painfully obvious. 

and Sakura's feats of going ahead of the Ribbit's tails that NARUTO HIMSELF who's fast as fuck described as fast is better than Hashirama's made up speed feat. 
Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot


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## Rocky (Aug 24, 2014)

Kyu said:


> The dude outpaced 100% Kurama's BD & constantly fought EMS Madara in close quarters combat on equal terms.



If you put Hashirama up against Shrouded Naruto at conversation distance (1-5 meters), he gets speed blitzed and Rasenshurikened and he dies. That's it. 

Hashirama was outpaced by that Bijūdama, which is why he had to stop and divert its course. Madara wouldn't even be able to fight against A in close combat without his Susano'o, let alone Kyūbi Naruto, so keeping up with him doesn't mean anything.

Hashirama was not noted for his speed, so he isn't going to be doing much of anything against beastly physical top-tiers except dying if the fight stays at melee range. 

His regeneration would allow him to win against these speedsters because they tend to smack people far away (inadvertently creating distance) with super moves, and Shodai could just get up, clap his hands, and start having fun. 

That wouldn't work against FRS though, 'cause of the "the chakra tube in all of your cells is gone" thing.


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## Ashi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hashirama kept up with Madara yet is somehow getting blitzed by KCM Naruto


I guess that makes him slower than Obito


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## Kyu (Aug 24, 2014)

> If you put Hashirama up against Shrouded Naruto at conversation distance (1-5 meters), he gets speed blitzed and Rasenshurikened and he dies. That's it.



I was talking about the usual starting distance of ten to twenty meters.

But at any rate I honestly don't see KCM Naruto forming an FRS and blitzing Shodai before he can do anything. 

BM? More than likely.

BSM? Without question.



Rocky said:


> Hashirama was outpaced by that Bijūdama, which is why he had to stop and divert its course. Madara wouldn't even be able to fight against A in close combat without his Susano'o, let alone Kyūbi Naruto, so keeping up with him doesn't mean anything.



After he summons the _Rashomon Gates_ the Bijudama hasn't even made contact with the first gate - meaning Hashirama managed to run and gain distance between himself & the _Bijudama_ before it got close to him. 

He outpaced the BD for a brief period *then* attempted to change its trajectory.

If Kurama's BD caught up to Hashirama, he'd be dead. End of story.



Hussain said:


> *redundant drivel*



See above.


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Kyu said:


> See above.



Sorry, but that point is not any less nonsensical(?) than the previous one. 
the summoning jutsu is a S/T jutsu, so not hitting the first gate which was teleported instantly is nothing astonishing.  

I don't know what so hard to understand that he started first and then landed immediately, it's nothing more than this.  

Link removed

talk about obvious. Using that as a feat is laughable.


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## Kyu (Aug 24, 2014)

> Sorry, but that point is not any less nonsensical(?) than the previous one.
> the summoning jutsu is a S/T jutsu, so not hitting the first gate which was teleported instantly is nothing astonishing.



Dude, Hashi was behind the gates he summoned which tells us he covered a considerable amount of ground to summon five RG and Kurama's BD hadn't even reached the first one yet. 

Then again, you believe Sakura is on KCM's level, so this might be going through one ear & out the other.


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

obviously he would be behind the damn thing as he summoned it. 
Link removed
Link removed

nothing different...
anyway, I'm done, it's hard to make the obvious even more clearer. O_o

Note: if we can use the Anime for the Hokage's arrival, Hashirama is even slower than old Hiruzen.


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## Kyu (Aug 24, 2014)

> obviously he would be behind the dame thing as he summoned it.
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> nothing different...



Exactly, and how did there become enough space to fit 5 gates between Hashirama and the nuke? He outpaced said bladed ball when it was directly behind him. Simple.



> Note: if we can use the Anime for the Hokage's arrival, Hashirama is even slower than old Hiruzen.



lolanime.


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## trance (Aug 24, 2014)

> Please show me the part of the statement where Hashirama says he is comparing Sakura to toddler Tsunade



Because Hashirama totally didn't die just a few years after Tsunade was born. That certainly never happened. 



The Format said:


> That's ironic considering there's a better chance Sakura drops a 30-40% (or more) Katsuyu on their heads then she herself actually being stomped/crushed.
> 
> But carry on.



In the time it would take her to form the necessary hand seals and slam her hands on the ground, BSM Naruto will have already lobbed several bijudama at her and Sauce will have Perfect Susanoo up, which a falling Katsuyu *isn't* damaging. 

Sakura wank. I never thought it get _this_ turrible.


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

Sakura reacted to Godrabbit's attack, which Godruto considered very fast. She was able to coordinate a combo attack with Godruto and Godsuke, against Kaguya. She's not one of the fasts characters in the verse, but her timing and reactions have risen tremendously since Ch 632. She also has ways around speedsters. Godara was incredibly fast but because of Byakugo she was still able to get in close and force Rinbo to block her surprise attack. Speed is also greatly neutralized if someone is left air-born from Okasho. Additionally as long as she can perceive an attack coming she can defend with Kuchiyose-Katsuya which happens at the speed of simply biting her finger and than S/T. 

On the flip side when has KCM-Naruto actually successfully blitz'd someone. He Shunshin-Right hand smashed Kisame, but messed up and got stock in a wall. If that was Sakura, she'd survive w/ Byakugo and than kill him while he's stuck in the wall. He tried to blitz BZ, but was thrown off course by a simple root, if that was Sakura Okasho would trip him and leave him open to successive attack. And so on.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Please show me the part of the statement where Hashirama says he is comparing Sakura to toddler Tsunade. Oh you can't and are just basing this off of a flashback. Yeah that's terrible logic at it's finest. Might as well say when Kakashi is talking about Naruto's strength he is referring to 12 Yo Naruto just because he flashes back to that Naruto from time to time.



We know that Hashirama died before Tsunade ever reached the age of six, because he died before Hiruzen became Hokage and taught the Sannin when they graduated from the academy at six. Thus your typical "doesn't care about the timeline" argument is weakened because Hashirama having a flashback about baby Tsunade and wondering if she turned out okay instead of being a spoiled brat (so he certainly wasn't aware of her accomplishments in the Second Great Ninja War) only supports the previously established fact that he died when she was tiny.

Kakashi _was_ talking about that Naruto's strength, though, _in the context that he had seen it had grown exponentially since then_.



> And yes Sakura's Okasho was not enough to say for sure her striking power is better than Tsunade's, why because Hashirama hasn't seen Tsunade in years. Tsunade could have reached the level where she can punch the earth apart in a single blow for all he knows. If I haven't seen a person play chess in several decades, than I see another person play a vastly better game of chess i'm still not going to say person-B is certainly better than person-a, because I haven't seen the grow of person-a in several decades. Instead I'd say exactly what Hashirama did that person-b may be better than person-a, as person-b played a much better game than person-b ever did



_Most people_ would say "Wow, you play even better than my old friend.", as opposed to "Hmm...you _might_ play better than my old friend", because it hurts nobody if the provisional conclusion is wrong, just like it wouldn't have hurt Hashirama to go ahead and say Sakura was far beyond what he thought Tsunade was capable of.



> Shizune not commenting on her striking force is an even more terrible argument. It's like saying well Kakashi never said anything about Oddoma-Rasengan being better than Minato, therefore Minato's Rasengan must still be better than than Oddoma-Rasengan. Insert a million other instances here.



Except it isn't like saying that because Kakashi didn't see Naruto use another of Minato's techniques and find it more impressive than the Rasengan.

My argument is not that "Shizune didn't explicitly say it was better than Tsunade's, therefore it isn't", it's that apparently, in spite of bearing witness to the Ōkashō, Shizune was only noticeably surprised that Sakura actually had the Chakra control skill necessary to perform the distance healing technique. That being the case, it means she didn't take from the Ōkashō that distance healing was a given, heavily implying that the base level of skill necessary for distance healing is above the base level of skill required for that huge impact. Since previously the distance healing technique has only been used by Tsunade otherwise, one can reasonably assume that Tsunade could replicate Sakura's explosive wave feat.

I can't think of any other instance in the manga that is similar in _that_ sense.



> Didn't stop reading, the text just doesn't say what your asserting it does.




*Spoiler*: _Databook 2 Souzou Saisei_ 



Genesis* Rebirth (創造再生, Souzou Saisei)
Ninjutsu, S-rank, Supplementary
User: Tsunade

The absolute pinnacle of medical ninjutsu~~ a "forbidden regeneration technique"!

Created by the greatest of medical ninja, Tsunade, this is the ultimate regeneration technique!! By releasing a large amount of chakra at once, the body's cell division is forcibly stimulated, reconstruction all organs and all tissues making up the human body!
If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injuried that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. It's impossible to die by any means...* for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one's comrades. That's the resolution hidden in this technique.*

[picture of Tsunade releasing her Yin Seal** and performing this technique]
↑By releasing the great volume of chakra stored in her forehead, Tsunade can make her body do the work of an untold number of years in an instant.

This wound may have brought her on the verge of death, but she won't die~~

[picture of the wound on Tsunade's shoulder healing]
↑↓The acceleration of cell division that allows for the complete recovery from wounds is paid for with the shortening of one's life span.
[picture of the wound on Tsunade's chest healing]

*Souzou means "creation". Especially a deity's creation of the world and everything in it. It isn't specifically the Christian Genesis, though. It can be applied to any religion. For example, the creation of Japan by the gods Izanagi and Izanami in Shinto is also called "souzou". I simply chose to use the word "Genesis" because I like the sound of it.
**Yin Seal (陰封印, In Fuuin). The diamond-shaped seal on Tsunade's forehead.






> LOL this is just sad. Tsunade voiced it in context of the mechanics of the technique, that is so clear that I can only assume your straight up lying at this point.



The only sad thing is your lack of elementary comprehension skills. "That" in "that is the resolution behind the technique" is an anaphor for "it's impossible to die by any means". Tsunade only voiced her resolve for the Jutsu after it had been described, she is not literally claiming that it is honest to goodness impossible to die by any means.



> No it's not. Tsunade is not infalible nor does she know of every technique in existence. Just because she thinks she can't die doesn't mean a new technique can't be later revealed that would indeed kill her



That doesn't diminish my point.

It's not the technique itself, it's the injury the technique can cause (i.e.- kills too quickly for the regeneration to take place).



> I'm sure being curshed to nothing and cut in half by a Bijuu comparable sword slash is not instant death.



It isn't he didn't instantly die. 



> Wow you know the definition of logic, color me impressed.



If you don't know the definition I have to wonder why you're in the BD.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

She beats Fuuton Training Naruto and loses to all the other versions (Naruto and Sasuke both).


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> We know that Hashirama died before Tsunade ever reached the age of six, because he died before Hiruzen became Hokage and taught the Sannin when they graduated from the academy at six. Thus your typical "doesn't care about the timeline" argument is weakened because Hashirama having a flashback about baby Tsunade and wondering if she turned out okay instead of being a spoiled brat (so he certainly wasn't aware of her accomplishments in the Second Great Ninja War) only supports the previously established fact that he died when she was tiny.
> .



- Keeps believing in a time-line that is retcon'd nearly every chapter. 
- Keeps not understanding what a flashback is
- Keeps using a faulty translation of what Hashirama said about Tsunade

That's all I got from this.




> Most people would say "Wow, you play even better than my old friend.", as opposed to "Hmm...you might play better than my old friend", because it hurts nobody if the provisional conclusion is wrong, just like it wouldn't have hurt Hashirama to go ahead and say Sakura was far beyond what he thought Tsunade was capable of.


It hurts the credibility of the speaker if they make a definitive statement w/o all the facts on the table
It hurts the credibility of a writer if they have a character who has no way of making a definitive statement, given their knowledge, make a definitive statement. 



> Except it isn't like saying that because Kakashi didn't see Naruto use another of Minato's techniques and find it more impressive than the Rasengan.


He didn't see Naruto use Oddoma-Rasengan lol



> My argument is not that "Shizune didn't explicitly say it was better than Tsunade's, therefore it isn't", it's that apparently, in spite of bearing witness to the Ōkashō, Shizune was only noticeably surprised that Sakura actually had the Chakra control skill necessary to perform the distance healing technique. That being the case, it means she didn't take from the Ōkashō that distance healing was a given, heavily implying that the base level of skill necessary for distance healing is above the base level of skill required for that huge impact. Since previously the distance healing technique has only been used by Tsunade otherwise, one can reasonably assume that Tsunade could replicate Sakura's explosive wave feat.


Shizune was used as the mouth piece to hype one feat, just because Kishi choose to make Hashirama the mouth piece for the other feat, doesn't mean anything other than Kishi not wanting to waste time having every single character that interacted with Tsunade comet on every aspect of Sakura's fighting style that is comparable to Tsunade's.



> Databook 2 Souzou Saisei:.


Wonderful, your interpretation of the entry is still just that an interpretation. An interpretation that is obviously wrong, given what the DB is referencing.



> The only sad thing is your lack of elementary comprehension skills. "That" in "that is the resolution behind the technique" is an anaphor for "it's impossible to die by any means". Tsunade only voiced her resolve for the Jutsu after it had been described, she is not literally claiming that it is honest to goodness impossible to die by any means.


That's exactly what Tsunade is claiming her technique does. Hence the entire build up explaining the mechanics of her technique. 



> t's not the technique itself, it's the injury the technique can cause (i.e.- kills too quickly for the regeneration to take place).


Show me the technique that killed Tsunade or Sakura too quickly for the regeneration to take place. Show me where Tsunade and Sakura were killed, and the regeneration didn't bring them back. Oh you can't....than your sentiment is just as much speculation as mine. Only difference is i'm not fabricating some crazy theory to ignore Tsunade's cannon statement



> t isn't he didn't instantly die.


Because of her medical skills.



> If you don't know the definition I have to wonder why you're in the BD.


I take back what I said, clearly you don't know the definition of logic, as this statement makes no sense in context with my previous one.


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## Ruse (Aug 24, 2014)

Are people still going by Sakura's statement? I thought that was meant in terms of usefulness not been equals in combat prowess...


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Are people still going by Sakura's statement? I thought that was meant in terms of usefulness not been equals in combat prowess...



We all know that.

It's pretty much just Turrin being himself.


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Are people still going by Sakura's statement? I thought that was meant in terms of usefulness not been equals in combat prowess...


You ought to tell Kishimoto to stop making it seem like it's combat prowess then. 

- In the chapter that Kishi had Sakura make that statement he focused on Sakura's combat prowess
- In the chapter where Sakura flashes back to that seen she doesn't try to catch up to Naruto and Sasuke again by using support, but fighting Madara directly
- In this chapter we don't see Sakura being useful to the combo in a support role, but rather a combat role

If Kishi wanted it to be seen as only support than he'd stop putting these instances in context of combat. 

That's not to say that her catching up to them doesn't also come from support, but there is a clear focus on her combat prowess being a large part of the equation as well. Ultimately Kishi may have had in mind that Sakura reached Naruto/Sasuke's "level", but would still loose a direct confrontation due to her being the most effective in a support role; the same way that many people consider Tsunade to be at the same "level" as Jiriaya and Orochimaru, but there somewhat better in combat, while she is somewhat better in support. But like Tsunade, Sakura shouldn't be that far off from them in combat ether, where there are multiple "level" gaps in their combat ability as people are suggesting here. 

Basically it's fine to say Ch 632 Naruto and Sasuke would beat Sakura 1v1, but it's not okay to say that Ch 632 Naruto and Sasuke would stomp her, and that she even be stomped by Naruto and Sasuke 3 incarnations ago, such as their Hebi-Sasuke. It does not follow the focus the author is giving her combat prowess. Hebi-Sasuke wouldn't be even remotely useful in combat against Kaguya, nether would MS-Sasuke for that matter.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

Anyone Kishi wants to make useful against Kaguya would be useful against Kaguya.

All Sakura did was fucking punch her, and how she even pulled that off when Kaguya can fly, travel through time and space, and has Byakugan to see completely around herself, fucking defies explanation.

Kishi pretty much just doesn't give a shit at this point. That doesn't mean the same Sakura who was barely keeping up with KCM and EMS Sasuke 50 chapters ago is now suddenly on par with their Hagoromo-induced God Forms, though.


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Anyone Kishi wants to make useful against Kaguya would be useful against Kaguya.
> 
> All Sakura did was fucking punch her, and how she even pulled that off when Kaguya can fly, travel through time and space, and has Byakugan to see completely around herself, fucking defies explanation.
> 
> Kishi pretty much just doesn't give a shit at this point. That doesn't mean the same Sakura who was barely keeping up with KCM and EMS Sasuke 50 chapters ago is now suddenly on par with their Hagoromo-induced God Forms, though.



Anyone Kishi wants to make useful against Nagato or Kabuto would be useful against Nagato or Kabuto.

Kishi pretty much just doesn't give a shit at this point. That doesn't mean Itachi is above Chuunin level when he was being fodderized by Tayuya Sound based technique

--------

That's how dumb that argument is


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## Nikushimi (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Anyone Kishi wants to make useful against Nagato or Kabuto would be useful against Nagato or Kabuto.
> 
> Kishi pretty much just doesn't give a shit at this point. That doesn't mean Itachi is above Chuunin level when he was being fodderized by Tayuya Sound based technique
> 
> ...



Itachi wasn't just useful--he actively defeated Kabuto and Nagato.

What has Sakura done except hit Kaguya?

Only a complete dipshit would believe that analogy.


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi wasn't just useful--he actively defeated Kabuto and Nagato.
> 
> What has Sakura done except hit Kaguya?
> 
> Only a complete dipshit would believe that analogy.



Now suddenly details matter, when before it was just Kishi will do whatever he wants. If Kishi will do whatever he wants is a reason to ignore someones feats, I feel perfectly justifying ignoring any feat of any character


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 24, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> Hebi Sasuke (Kirin prepped *meaning thunder clouds are present* and not prepped)


Sasuke already had owned Sakura in combination with Yamato, Naruto and Sai.

Sasuke is still much faster than her, has sharingan precog, which he used both to speedblitz her. Last I know she's increased her strength and chakra, not speed. So Sasuke speedblitzes.

With Kirin prepped, he stomps.




> MS Sasuke (post kage summit but clear vision)


Arrow to the brain or Amaterasu GG. Take your pick.



> EMS Sasuke


Perfect Susanoo slash or Amaterasu/Enton GG. Take your pick

Bonus fighter: current sasuke



> Wind Arc Naruto (allowed up to 4tails kyubi mode)


Naruto can use Tajuu KB to overwhelm her.

Naruto's biggest asset here is his knowledge of her. She knows Sakura's one and only means of winning this: punching. So he'll keep his distance, and with Tajuu Kb he can actually do that. A Kb feints eventually finishes her with FRS like Kakuzu did.



> SM Nartuo (no time limit sage mode)


This means Naruto can just use Tajuu Kaebunshin of a thousand Sage Mode clones.

Sakura gets hammered by literally hundreads of Senpou Choo Oodama Rasengan that break her head off.



> BM?Naruto (Before getting all 9 bijuu)


Even KCM Naruto's shushin trolled Ei's V2. Naruto blitzes and finishes this with FRS or any other Rasengan capable of taking her head off.



> Bonus fighter: Current naruto


Current Naruto speed blitzes and kills her with a FRS even in Base. Sasuke also wins with just Amaterasu/PS.



Turrin said:


> Anyway I don't see a reason to believe that P-Susano'o is completely immune to being corroded by Acid. It may take longer or take a larger volume of Acid, but the fact that all the stages bellow it corrode over time from Acid, despite each scaling in power dramatically, does not suggest to me that the increase in power of each Susano'o stage is enough to provide outright immunity.


So let me get this straight:

You're comparing Rib cage Susanoo to Perfect Susanoo? 

Thats like 5-6 tiers apart in difference.

V2, V3, V4, Unstablilized PS, and Stabilized PS.

No amount of acid is gonna do shit to PS, keep dreaming.

Only Kayuya levels can crack PS.


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> So let me get this straight:
> 
> You're comparing Rib cage Susanoo to Perfect Susanoo?
> 
> ...


Actually i'm comparing V3-Legged Susano'o to P-Susano'o, which for Sasuke was the stage of Susano'o just before P-Susano'o. Sasuke's P-Susano'o is not Madara's P-Susano'o or even Kakashi SO6P's chakra enhanced Susano'o.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Actually i'm comparing V3-Legged Susano'o to P-Susano'o, which for Sasuke was the stage of Susano'o just before P-Susano'o. Sasuke's P-Susano'o is not Madara's P-Susano'o or even Kakashi SO6P's chakra enhanced Susano'o.



When did Sasuke's V3 Susanoo got melted by acid?


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> When did Sasuke's V3 Susanoo got melted by acid?


Madara's V3


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## Butterfly (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't see how she gets passed the second combatants on each Sasuke/Naruto side. Sasuke's ameterasu would wipe her out and Sage Mode is still OP for 90% of the cast. 

Sakura could try her best to regenerate or Katsuyu her way out, but she still falls short. At best, the MS Sasuke would have extreme difficulty against her, Sage Mode probably high. Take it down a notch for the next updates they got. 

I can't believe some people think a punch from Sakura would be all right to tank, tho. That's just a brand new one 

Katsuyu's acid can melt Susanno though. It has better melting feats than Mei's acid (being able to vaporize rock) and Orochimaru had to be forthright the moment he heard Katsuyu gurgling, so I'm going to take that as a sign that her acidic paste is something you wanna get the fuck out of dodge for. 

As for dropping Katsuyu on their head, it's certainly feasible in terms of "it can happen" but I don't think she's likely to use that tactic. Tsunade and Sakura have both demonstrated the skill to summon Katsuyu a slight distance before them. But I feel like, for protection purposes, Sakura would summon Katsuyu below her. 

And as for Tsunade vs. Madara. Her own strength is far superior. A and Onoki struck from behind, no one else struck where Tsunade struck and tsunade's strikes busted open Susanno. 

But ,in all likely hood, I just see Hebi Sasuke's snakes being used to tug him into CQC where Sakura wins and Naruto's clones being met with Katsuyu. When he attempts to get to Sakura, either other Katsuyu will alert her and give her the time to react or he'll be partially sucked into Katsuyu which leaves him open for Sakura to kick him or punch him. Other than that, Sakura's cherry blossoms are gonna be falling tbh.


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## ueharakk (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't see what has changed.  She has a good chance of beating the first two incarnations, but she gets beaten by sennin mode naruto and MS sasuke, and destroyed by the above forms listed in this thread.

Punching kaguya's horn off with your absolute strongest punch hardly means anything when juubi jins have the physical strength to casually rip their horns off.  Sakura's strength is no greater or less than what she's been portrayed at when we've first seen her strike the ground and cause that giant shockwave.  She tries to do that, she gets an amaterasu or FRS in her face before she even makes it to the ground.  If she makes it to the ground and connects, she succeedes in sending super durable SM Naruto and susanoo protected MS Sasuke high into the air, that's about it.  They both come back down and end her with one of their non-tankables.  The argument about someone being 'useful' against Kaguya when she's busy fighting 3 top tiers and in a weakened state means absolutely nothing about that person going at her in a 1 vs 1 fight.

Prime example is lee and minato.  SM Minato got fodderized by juubidara when he tried to fight him 1 vs 1, yet armless base minato is able to be extremely 'useful' against him when he eliminates half of madara's offense/defense in a single move.  6th gate lee is able to be 'useful' against madara, in that he throws minato's kunai to him, and has saved Gai from one of madara's attacks.  That has absolutely nothing to do with lee fighting madara 1 vs 1.


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