# DMS kakashi vs sharinegan sasuke



## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2015)

Sasuke is unrestricted. he can use all pain powers, and can use enton with his susanoo 
he can also do everything else seen on panel 

knowledge: none they dont know each other 
distance: 25m 
mindset: kill the SOB infront of you 

i think sasuke could win this. Both with ST jutsu make this a very very tough match. Long range kamui would be countered the first time. from there sasuke would never again be a target for kamui due to susanoo camping skills. 

Kamui shiruken are sasuke biggest threat. But nothing that sasuke cant counter by setting off the kamui with enton projectiles before they get to him 

I can only imagine a susanoo chidori should be able to break through kakashi PS 

lastly genjutsu isnt out of the question. sharinnegan>>MS 

kakashi also cant phase and kamui snipe


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## Patrick (Feb 6, 2015)

People aside from Raikiri19 give Kakashi a chance in this match up?

Sasuke stomps.


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## Deer Lord (Feb 6, 2015)

Enough with these DMS kakashi threads already
They're nothing but Raikiri19 bait 




On a side note, sasuke stomps.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 6, 2015)

Kakashi got haxxx and his reflexes are impressive as were his Kamui Shurikens.

However, with full Rinnegan mastery Sasuke can hit him with invisible energy blasts(ST) which due to his current power are infinitely greater than Pain's or Nagato's. He can absorb Kakashi's Raikiri and impale him on his own. His s/t was able to land a hit on RSM Naruto even if it scored no major damage. And hit Madara like 3 times which included one AFTER Madara started to figure out how it works.

Kakashi puts up a bit of a fight and if he stays intangible most of the time playing his game cautiously then it may take some time for Sasuke to take him down.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2015)

kk mods do lock 
i just wanted to know what people thought since they had the audacity to put him up against RSM naruto


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## Trojan (Feb 6, 2015)

Sasuke fodderstomps low difficult.

DMS Kakashi is at best at EMS Madara level (Without Kurama), more or less.


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## sabre320 (Feb 6, 2015)

1st of all give me one reason why kakashi cant use kamui snipe while intangible....obito with both eyes was this feared for this very reason camping in sussano does not protect sasuke from kamui snipe kakashi while chakra exhausted managed to warp something on gedomazous size a fresh kakashi with rikudo chakra should easily be able to kamui warp something of ps heads size sasukes ps hasnt once been shown to use enton projectiles it only has its swords..leaving it vulnerable to kamui shuriken that bypass durability not to mention if ps can apply kamui to its projectiles it should be able to apply it to his sword....kakashis kamui speed is exemplary the downplay is hilarious his feats are there but people are so bent up on chakra amounts and preconceived notions that they turn their eye to them sasuke could not with his st get a hit on kaguya kakashi uses his st and blitzes a upgraded kaguya and its because she didnt move because lol pis..if she was able to react she would have atleast attempted to defend herself she didnt even move a muscle...kaguya using the space time tech put her arm into the portal pulled sasuke in and he was helpless kakashi closes the same portal before she can even initiate an attack through it and its lol he only warped the bone he cuts off the chakra arms that blitzed rsm narutos clone and bitch slapped sasukes ps and its lol that is childs play....chakra amount dosent mean strength sasuke and naruto regularly clashed their rasengans and chidori naruto having much greater chakra amount should have easily overpowered sasukes chidori by that standard but nope sasuke has more chakra thats why his ps is much stronger...worst of all is the fact that theres a timelimit on sasukes space time tech and his only chance of dodging kamui is with it his base speed is not enough..


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> 1st of all give me one reason why kakashi cant use kamui snipe while intangible....obito with both eyes was this feared for this very reason camping in sussano does not protect sasuke from kamui snipe kakashi while chakra exhausted managed to warp something on gedomazous size a fresh kakashi with rikudo chakra should easily be able to kamui warp something of ps heads size sasukes ps hasnt once been shown to use enton projectiles it only has its swords..leaving it vulnerable to kamui shuriken that bypass durability not to mention if ps can apply kamui to its projectiles it should be able to apply it to his sword....kakashis kamui speed is exemplary the downplay is hilarious his feats are there but people are so bent up on chakra amounts and preconceived notions that they turn their eye to them sasuke could not with his st get a hit on kaguya kakashi uses his st and blitzes a upgraded kaguya and its because she didnt move because lol pis..if she was able to react she would have atleast attempted to defend herself she didnt even move a muscle...kaguya using the space time tech put her arm into the portal pulled sasuke in and he was helpless kakashi closes the same portal before she can even initiate an attack through it and its lol he only warped the bone he cuts off the chakra arms that blitzed rsm narutos clone and bitch slapped sasukes ps and its lol that is childs play....chakra amount dosent mean strength sasuke and naruto regularly clashed their rasengans and chidori naruto having much greater chakra amount should have easily overpowered sasukes chidori by that standard but nope sasuke has more chakra thats why his ps is much stronger...worst of all is the fact that theres a timelimit on sasukes space time tech and his only chance of dodging kamui is with it his base speed is not enough..



Because he cannot snipe and be intangible . Kakashi already explained only one or the other can be done.
For all this kamui babble do note ST or preta path can troll it 
Sasuke space time jutsu trolls it as well 

Sasuke beats him to the ground
Also PS>>>>> gedo mazo arm . Kakashi would have to kamui the chakra covering sasuke then sasuke . Unlikely before sasuke uses shinra tensei preta path or his ST jutsu 
Also note CT would fuck Kakashi over even if he phases to avoid it once he is solid he will be pulled back in and would have to wrap it
During that time sasuke can murder him


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## sabre320 (Feb 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Because he cannot snipe and be intangible . Kakashi already explained only one or the other can be done.
> For all this kamui babble do note ST or preta path can troll it
> Sasuke space time jutsu trolls it as well
> 
> ...



Kakashi never once stated that panel please
how da hell does preta troll or shinra tensei troll it? sasuke can use his st once before cooldown while kakashi can spam kamui..

ps head is smaller then gedo mazous arm kakashi only needs to warp the head where the jewel and sasuke are located..

sasukes ct are tiny not to mention kakashi can phase and ct will have already absorbed the ground reaching its full size or kakashi can kamui snipe or kamui shuriken the core...

generalistic statements dont help arguments i can say lol kakashi stomps sasukes ass...


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## Mercurial (Feb 6, 2015)

1) Sasuke attacks Kaguya with Rinnegan teleportation followed by Chidori, Kaguya easily dodges (1)(2).
- Kakashi attacks a stronger/faster/more powerful version of Kaguya dashing out of his Susanoo with Rikudo enhanced Raikiri combo'd with Kamui phasing effect, aka Kamui Raikiri, Kaguya is not able to dodge, not able to couter, from the lack of "!" until she is hit she is actually unable to even react ()().

2) - Sasuke can't react to Kaguya's S/T Yomotsu Hirasaka in time to dodge it activating his Rinnegan S/T instant swap, let alone dodge on foot (5)(6).
- Kakashi easily reacts to Kaguya's S/T Yomotsu Hirasaka and uses his long range Kamui to outspeed the teleportation portal and warp away both it and the bone projectile before the teleporting could complete ()(). If one it's not blind, it's easy to see the black portal that was opening before is magically no more after Kamui warp.

Logical conclusion (1) = Kakashi's physical speed is a lot, a lot faster than Sasuke, as fast as the Uchiha can be and he certainly is. Kakashi can also add Kamui phasing to his movements, and also Kamui self teleporting (at maximized speed having both eyes together + Rikudo chakra powering; it's basically a free seal-less Hiraishin). Kakashi can also use clones with top notch skill in the area, and spam them due to enough chakra (Obito's + his + some Rikudo chakra) to use Perfect Susanoo without any problem.

Logical conclusion (2) = If Sasuke is not fast enough to do something against Yomotsu Hirasaka, he is definitely not fast enough to do something against long range Kamui, as it proved to be faster, much faster, than Yomotsu Hirasaka. That means Kamui GG. That also means that Kakashi has better reactions/reflexes, so he is much more deadly in CQC (when you have to add better speed, better CQC skill, Kamui phasing and Kamui teleporting, clones with quantity and quality), and he can outspeed and oneshot Sasuke if he tries to do the same. Kakashi is also far smarter than Sasuke.

The only way Sasuke can win is Rinnegan genjutsu, assuming that it doesn't need eye contact, as it actually seems it doesn't. But if Kakashi has knowledge of it, he would use long range Kamui that is faster, or phase to defend. Anyway most of times Kakashi wins with long range Kamui GG or with Kamui Raikiri. Sasuke has more raw power but it's useless when Kakashi can defend with Kamui phasing, and the Rinnegan powers (Deva, Preta and so on) as powerful as they are are still meaningless to Kamui hax, as they can't defend from it and can't overcome his defense. Amenotejikara can't defend from long range Kamui as Sasuke can't react to it, if he failed to do with a slower attack, and can be defended from with better reactions and Kamui phasing, and also keeping the distance as it doesn't work after a certain distance. Kakashi definitely wins more times than not.

On a portrayal note. You have Sasuke, together with Naruto, struggling to fight Kaguya when 2 vs 1, and when 1 vs 1 being outclassed more than once, being unable to defend himself from her, being unable to hit her. Then you have Kakashi, alone, completely changing the course of the fight against Kaguya. The strongest version of Kaguya, don't forget, who he could counter in her giant form (Perfect Susanoo + Kamui Shuriken), who he could dodge and hit in her fastest form (Kamui phasing + Kamui Raikiri), who he could outperform in one of her most haxxed resources (long range Kamui). Then Sasuke gained more Rinnegan powers, but they are useless against Kamui, and it's not like they would cope the gap in the last performances of master and discipule. I don't know how it can be said that Sasuke not only has more chances, but would definitely win. Not with what the manga showed, sadly.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Kakashi never once stated that panel please
> how da hell does preta troll or shinra tensei troll it? sasuke can use his st once before cooldown while kakashi can spam kamui..
> 
> ps head is smaller then gedo mazous arm kakashi only needs to warp the head where the jewel and sasuke are located..
> ...



Kamui is ninjutsu preta trolls it 
ST is gravity field it pushes it away 

Feel free to make any statement you want . Going with popular reasonable opinion on this one


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 6, 2015)

This is a shame.

Sasuke could nail naruto with chidori in conjuction with his S/T ninjutsu twice(once without megazords and once inside one) so he gets hit. But unlike naruto kakashi doesn't have the durability to tank a chidori so he dies.

Though sasuke would rape kakashi before megazords come out even if they did sasuke shifts a PS chidori through it and kakashi in a instant.


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## Zef (Feb 6, 2015)

Patrick said:


> People aside from Raikiri19 give Kakashi a chance in this match up?
> 
> Sasuke stomps.





Deer Lord said:


> Enough with these DMS kakashi threads already
> They're nothing but Raikiri19 bait
> 
> 
> ...





Hussain said:


> Sasuke fodderstomps low difficult.
> 
> DMS Kakashi is at best at EMS Madara level (Without Kurama), more or less.





blackguyinpinksuit said:


> This is a shame.
> 
> Sasuke could nail naruto with chidori in conjuction with his S/T ninjutsu twice(once without megazords and once inside one) so he gets hit. But unlike naruto kakashi doesn't have the durability to tank a chidori so he dies.
> 
> Though sasuke would rape kakashi before megazords come out even if they did sasuke shifts a PS chidori through it and kakashi in a instant.



All of this.

Rinnegan Genjutsu GG
Speedblitz GG
Amenojikara followed by speedblitz GG
Perfect Susano'o  GG
Perfect Susano'o with Chidori GG
Indra's Arrow GG
Chibaku Tensei GG
Summoning Jutsu GG
Amaterasu GG
Enton GG
Preta Path GG


Sasuke stomps this fodder with negative five trillion difficulty. 

Kishi gives Kakashi fans an inch, and they go a whole mile.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2015)

Sasuke wins mid difficulty mainly due to higher chakra levels and the fact that Kamui is restricted.


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## Icegaze (Feb 7, 2015)

why is kamui restricted?
i didnt restrict it 
its just useless against sasuke who has 3 ways of trolling the jutsu


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## sabre320 (Feb 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Kamui is ninjutsu preta trolls it
> ST is gravity field it pushes it away
> 
> Feel free to make any statement you want . Going with popular reasonable opinion on this one



seriously dude u still on abput preta absorbing kamui when even guodama could not negate it and st pushing kamui away are u okay its not a projectile  and restricting phasing and snipe wow lol


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## sabre320 (Feb 7, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> This is a shame.
> 
> Sasuke could nail naruto with chidori in conjuction with his S/T ninjutsu twice(once without megazords and once inside one) so he gets hit. But unlike naruto kakashi doesn't have the durability to tank a chidori so he dies.
> 
> Though sasuke would rape kakashi before megazords come out even if they did sasuke shifts a PS chidori through it and kakashi in a instant.



sasuke could not nail kaguya with said st naruto was probably tired as shown by 3 guodama instead of 9 otherwise naruto displayed reactions enough to dodge kaguyas st which was faster then sasukes and sasuke never used st in conjunction with his ps


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## Icegaze (Feb 7, 2015)

what does that have to do with preta nullifying the jutsu? 
erm its a barrier that forms at the victims location. ST can push it away 

lool i didnt restrict it. do show me when he used both. considering you have to be physical to snipe. which means if u phased ur not physically present 

obito and kakashi explained this. but ok  

MS jutsu isnt beating a rinnegan jutsu. Yes kakashi kamui'd the black stuff big woop. not the same as defeating a jutsu which absorbs chakra which is what kamui is made out of


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## Arles Celes (Feb 7, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Kakashi never once stated that panel please
> how da hell does preta troll or shinra tensei troll it? sasuke can use his st once before cooldown while kakashi can spam kamui..
> 
> ps head is smaller then gedo mazous arm kakashi only needs to warp the head where the jewel and sasuke are located..
> ...



When Kakashi ever spammed Kamui like it was a machine gun?

Kakashi can't see ST as he couldn't against Deva despite having his sharingan. 

Sasuke can counter Kamui Shurekens either by Enton Arows or using Asura path missiles.

As for Kamui snipe Sasuke should sense how Kakashi gathers power in his eye for that and uses Amanotejikara to teleport and smack with a PS chidori which could match a Six Path Senjutsu bijuudama.

Sasuke's CT are not so tiny given that they can trap bijuus. Pain's CT couldn't contain K8 Naruto. They are as big as PS.

Besides he can move them at will and by using them to attack he can force Kakashi to stay intangible all the time...which he should only manage for like 5 minutes. Kamui's weakness is dealing with multiple targets.

Can Kakashi Kamui snipe all those meteors while dealing with ST, PS chidori, missiles and Amenojikara?

LOL if Kakashi is such a beast then he might as well try his luck against RSM Naruto with all nature energy in the world or even Kaguya. He will just snipe 100s of clones like a boss while staying intangible. What a guy 



sabre320 said:


> sasuke could not nail kaguya with said st naruto was probably tired as shown by 3 guodama instead of 9 otherwise naruto displayed reactions enough to dodge kaguyas st which was faster then sasukes and sasuke never used st in conjunction with his ps



Sasuke was as tired as Naruto himself given that he run out of chakra even a bit sooner than him. And were not all those gudoudamas destroyed when used as bijuu rasenshurikens? 

And besides Madara had like only one gudoudama left when facing Naruto and Sasuke. Was he at like 10% of his power then?

As for Sasuke using PS with Ameno, he might have done so here: [2]

Though it may have been a normal blitz....but then again it was a hit from the back instead of a frontal assault. Like his previous use of Ameno with Chidori.


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## Ersa (Feb 7, 2015)

Sasuke wins.

Kakashi hasn't shown a lot of stamina in his DMS state, he burns out quickly and Rinnegan gives Sasuke everything he needs to survive.


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## Icegaze (Feb 7, 2015)

genjutsu GG
sharinegan is like 3 levels above MS

sasuke genjutsu mind rapes him


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## ARGUS (Feb 7, 2015)

Sasuke himself calls his eye the rinnegan, and so do madara and the data book 
Yet somehow he has the rinne sharingan now? 
Where Is this coming from?
Rinne sharingan is the eye to cast IT where only Kaguya and Madara are it's weilders, and are listed in the databook to be it's only weilders as well 

So Sasukes eye is the rinnegan 

OT - Sasuke wins mid/high diff at the very most if BPS is restricted 
Otherwise sasuke turns kakashi into a smear on the ground


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## Mercurial (Feb 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> what does that have to do with preta nullifying the jutsu?
> erm its a barrier that forms at the victims location. ST can push it away
> 
> lool i didnt restrict it. do show me when he used both. considering you have to be physical to snipe. which means if u phased ur not physically present
> ...



Please, no Preta Path bullshit when even not Rikudo empowered Kamui could warp away the Gudodama despite it nullifying every other ninjutsu. Preta Path is said to absorb any ninjutsu, well Kamui is said to be uncounterable with no jutsu being able to stop it or compete with it (), and by feats so that is, you can only avoid it if you have enough reflexes and S/T or movement speed, and good luck to it LoL. 

Kamui is activated with chakra but not something made of chakra or directly vitalyzed through chakra, because the chakra is used only in the eye to open a hole in the space-time. The space-time it's not made of chakra, it's not a chakra construct or something directly vitalyzed by chakra infusion, so even if you reason about it you would know that Preta does shit.

Also, as it is said Kamui is something that can't be stopped when it is started, this by the databook and by Kakashi himself, who is a genius with full knowledge on the Rinnegan powers, when he is fighting a Rinnegan wielder who is believed to be Madara Uchiha himself; it's not only a statement because feats and logic prove it. You have Kakashi, a genius, who knows every Rinnegan power (the ones known at that moment at least) to the point he has set up countermeasures (2) and know especially about Preta Path power (3) still when his Kamui on the Gedo Mazo is stopped by someone who wields the Rinnegan, and not only that, but is also thought to be the legendary Madara Uchiha, he is completely surprised, and he doesn't think even for an instant that the opponent could have used the Rinnegan to stop his jutsu. Don't you find this clear as day, I don't know what to say. In 2015, to think that Preta Path could stop Kamui, is really delusional. You aren't a butthurt debater like other that are sadly well known for their butthurt, so please don't downlevel yourself with this.

Not to mention that anyway Sasuke is not even reacting to DMS Rikudo Kakashi's long range Kamui, as he couldn't do anything (4)(5) about a less faster attack than long range Kamui: as long range Kamui showed it could outspeed the teleportation portal and warp away both it and the bone projectile before the teleporting could complete ()(). Or Kamui teleporting with both eyes (with maximized speed because of both eyes power plus Rikudo chakra enhancing) followed by Kamui Raikiri, but this can be debated; still, even if he reacts at the last moment, and tries to hit Kakashi with Susanoo or something or to fuck up him with Amenotejikara, Kakashi just phases and then it's Kamui Raikiri GG, he's not dodging a thrust that a person who, when in a faster form than the one that dodged Sasuke himself with ease (8)(9), couldn't dodge (10)(11). 


Kakashi's physical speed is a lot, a lot faster than Sasuke, as fast as the Uchiha can be and he certainly is. Kakashi can also add Kamui phasing to his movements, and also Kamui self teleporting (at maximized speed having both eyes together + Rikudo chakra powering; it's basically a free seal-less Hiraishin). Kakashi can also use clones with top notch skill in the area, and spam them due to enough chakra (Obito's + his + some Rikudo chakra) to use Perfect Susanoo without any problem. If Sasuke is not fast enough to do something against Yomotsu Hirasaka, he is definitely not fast enough to do something against long range Kamui, as it proved to be faster, much faster, than Yomotsu Hirasaka. That means Kamui GG. That also means that Kakashi has better reactions/reflexes, so he is much more deadly in CQC (when you have to add better speed, better CQC skill, Kamui phasing and Kamui teleporting, clones with quantity and quality), and he can outspeed and oneshot Sasuke if he tries to do the same. Kakashi is also far smarter than Sasuke. Kamui Shuriken also shits a lot on Sasuke, as Kakashi can spam at least four of them together in a single row and everyone of them creates a quick Kamui warp (far faster than Kaguya's chakra arms) that is as big as a fucking Perfect Susanoo (); mind it, four all together, they can be spammable, while Kakashi can camp in Perfect Susanoo... Sasuke has more raw power but it's useless when Kakashi can defend with Kamui phasing, and the Rinnegan powers (Deva, Preta and so on) as powerful as they are are still meaningless to Kamui hax, as they can't defend from it and can't overcome his defense. Amenotejikara can't defend from long range Kamui as Sasuke can't react to it, if he failed to do with a slower attack, and can be defended from with better reactions and Kamui phasing, and also keeping the distance as it doesn't work after a certain distance. I don't think my argument it's that difficult, or biased, it seems really elementary to me. Kakashi wins more times than not with long range Kamui or Kamui Raikiri. Rinnegan genjutsu can give Sasuke the win sometimes.


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## Hachibi (Feb 7, 2015)

The only reason this is a fight is because of the Sasuke downplay around here (ie Hussain thinking that he's BM Naruto level without Bijuus, Cryorex thinking SM Hashirama has a chance, peoples putting him below Juubito)

Sasuke blitz the fuck out of him.


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## Mercurial (Feb 7, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> The only reason this is a fight is because of the Sasuke downplay around here (ie Hussain thinking that he's BM Naruto level without Bijuus, Cryorex thinking SM Hashirama has a chance, peoples putting him below Juubito)
> 
> Sasuke blitz the fuck out of him.



Must be why he was dodged like a fodder by a slower version of the same opponent that Kakashi hit like it was the simplest thing to do on the Earth.


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## Kai (Feb 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Must be why he was dodged like a fodder by a slower version of the same opponent that Kakashi hit like it was the simplest thing to do on the Earth.


Sasuke hit Kaguya too.


Kakashi's power is Obito's power. Therefore we know he isn't on the level of the endgame Rikudos, and more importantly one doesn't need to be on their level to be able to land a single hit on Kaguya.


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## Mercurial (Feb 7, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasuke hit Kaguya too.
> 
> 
> Kakashi's power is Obito's power. Therefore we know he isn't on the level of the endgame Rikudos, and more importantly one doesn't need to be on their level to be able to land a single hit on Kaguya.



What? Seriously, this only shows Kaguya dodging Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo like nothing, despite being already heavily wounded with an arm just severed by Naruto. Also, even if it was (but it clearly isn't, I mean, why did you post it as it doesn't show Sasuke hitting Kaguya more than when she dodged his Chidori?) this is a slower (and wounded) version of Kaguya compared to the one Kakashi hit with a physical thrust (amped with phasing hax), the same attack that a slower version of Kaguya could dodge when executed by Sasuke (amped by surprise attack thanks to Rinnegan teleporting).

It's Obito's power + Kakashi's own power (Kamui Raikiri wouldn't exist without Raikiri) and most of everything Kakashi's skill in using it at the best possibile. Hax and power is nothing without enough skill to use it. Also, anyway, by feats and even portrayal it is, when you have Kakashi alone performing better than both Naruto and Sasuke together against a weaker version of Kaguya.


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## Hachibi (Feb 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Must be why he was dodged like a fodder by a slower version of the same opponent that Kakashi hit like it was the simplest thing to do on the Earth.



Kakashi caught off guard Kaguya with his intangibility then process to Kamui Raikiri her while she was still surprised. Sasuke fought Kaguya head on and the only time he didn't he was slowed down by the Gravity Dimension.

That isn't comparable.


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## Max Thunder (Feb 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Must be why he was dodged like a fodder by a slower version of the same opponent that Kakashi hit like it was the simplest thing to do on the Earth.



I love how you Kakashi fans use this as some kind of proof to why Kakashi should be stronger.

It's hilarious really  

That don't mean shit.

If I managed to hit Muhammad Ali at his prime does that suddenly make me stronger than Mike Tyson?

GTFO with that shit 

Not to mention that whole Kaguya thing that Raikiri always mentions in order to feed his own illusions is incredibly flawed considering Sasuke speedblitzed fucking NARUTO.


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## Kai (Feb 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> What? Seriously, this only shows Kaguya dodging Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo like nothing, despite being already heavily wounded with an arm just severed by Naruto. Also, even if it was (but it clearly isn't, I mean, why did you post it as it doesn't show Sasuke hitting Kaguya more than when she dodged his Chidori?) this is a slower (and wounded) version of Kaguya compared to the one Kakashi hit with a physical thrust (amped with phasing hax), the same attack that a slower version of Kaguya could dodge when executed by Sasuke (amped by surprise attack thanks to Rinnegan teleporting).
> 
> It's Obito's power + Kakashi's own power (Kamui Raikiri wouldn't exist without Raikiri) and most of everything Kakashi's skill in using it at the best possibile. Hax and power is nothing without enough skill to use it. Also, anyway, by feats and even portrayal it is, when you have Kakashi alone performing better than both Naruto and Sasuke together against a weaker version of Kaguya.


Crap, you're right regarding the scan. Never mind that.

Kakashi's greatest strength is his tactical ability in a team setting. They overcame Kaguya with his strategy. In terms of power level, Kakashi's own power is useless as he stated himself. That is, without Obito's power he is useless. Therefore, it's only natural that we judge Kakashi's power by Obito's standards.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 7, 2015)

sasuke has indeed hit kaguya, so people need to stop using that as an excuse to say that kakashi is stronger.


the nature of how kakashi hit her makes the comparison irrelevant anyway.

kamui shuriken are dodged by a flying PS and kakashis susano gets opened up by a combination of slashes and PS chidori.

on ground, sasukes takes advantage of a time where kakashi attacks, swaps with something behind him, and ends him with chidori or a chidori sword.


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## sabre320 (Feb 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> what does that have to do with preta nullifying the jutsu?
> erm its a barrier that forms at the victims location. ST can push it away
> 
> lool i didnt restrict it. do show me when he used both. considering you have to be physical to snipe. which means if u phased ur not physically present
> ...



Its a freaking portal that is stated in the freaking databook to b..e unstoppable and cannot be defended against guodama is superior to preta it nullifies all ninjutsu only senjutsu works against it and kamui warped it no problem..he does not need to be tangible to snipe stop stating stuff with no proof


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 7, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> sasuke has indeed hit kaguya, so people need to stop using that as an excuse to say that kakashi is stronger.
> 
> 
> the nature of how kakashi hit her makes the comparison irrelevant anyway.
> ...



ya clearly sasuke struck kaguya there and sasuke didnt block a hit with ps


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## sabre320 (Feb 7, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasuke hit Kaguya too.
> 
> 
> Kakashi's power is Obito's power. Therefore we know he isn't on the level of the endgame Rikudos, and more importantly one doesn't need to be on their level to be able to land a single hit on Kaguya.



she dodged him while leaking fluids


----------



## Zef (Feb 7, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> ya clearly sasuke struck kaguya there and sasuke didnt block a hit with ps



or....and this is a big OR....

He hit Kaguya

OT: Sasuke speedblitzes Kakashi.

Sasuke> One eyed JJ Madara> Kakashi

Kakashi getting blitzed


Madara getting blitzed


----------



## Hachibi (Feb 7, 2015)

Zef said:


> or....and this is a big OR....
> 
> He hit Kaguya
> 
> ...



Inb4 Kakashi's reflex got enhanced by Rikudo's chakra

Also, lol at people using the "Kakashi hitted Kaguya but Sasuke couldn't, therefor Kakashi > Sasuke" when fucking Sakura did as well, which make this irrevelant (unless you believe Sakura > Rikudo Sasuke, which mean lay off the drugs).


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 7, 2015)

Max Thunder said:


> I love how you Kakashi fans use this as some kind of proof to why Kakashi should be stronger.
> 
> It's hilarious really
> 
> ...



If you managed to rip muhamad alis arm off by lunging at him from 30 meters before he could even move then ya maybe you are stronger then ricky hatton because thats how far sasuke is from kaguya..

ya lets ignore sasukes whole performance against the opponent sasuke fought against kakashi cut a stronger kaguyas arm off..naruto was holding back against sasuke was trying to talk him down and sasuke used his st against him because naruto consistently dodged a faster  opponent in kaguya and a superior st..


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## Hachibi (Feb 7, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> ya lets ignore sasukes whole performance against the opponent sasuke fought against kakashi cut a stronger kaguyas arm off..naruto was holding back against sasuke was trying to talk him down and sasuke used his st against him because naruto dodged a faster  opponent in kaguya and a superior st..





I don't understand what you are saying :sanji


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## sabre320 (Feb 7, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Inb4 Kakashi's reflex got enhanced by Rikudo's chakra
> 
> Also, lol at people using the "Kakashi hitted Kaguya but Sasuke couldn't, therefor Kakashi > Sasuke" when fucking Sakura did as well, which make this irrevelant (unless you believe Sakura > Rikudo Sasuke, which mean lay off the drugs).



lol the hate is hilarious okay lets use ems sasukes feats to downplay sasuke rikudo chakra dosent matter lol


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## sabre320 (Feb 7, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I don't understand what you are saying :sanji



you are ignoring sasukes pathetic performance against kaguya where he was blitzed easily dodged over and over again his ps bitchslapped multiple times and lets ignore kakashis ripping an upgraded kaguyas arm off before she could even move where he closed her st portal before she could initate an attack through it while just putting an arm through the same portal blitzed sasuke while kaguya was weaker and lets hype sasuke landing a hit on naruto who was trying to talk him down through his st even though naruto consistently  dodged a far faster and superior opponent in kaguya who used a superior st technique yup


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## Hachibi (Feb 7, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> you are ignoring sasukes pathetic performance against kaguya



And yet, latter he fucked up Naruto, who had blitzed Kaguya.



> where he was blitzed



Sasuke was never blitzed. He was caught off guard, big difference



> easily dodged over and over again



Kaguya only dodged him once, and that was because of the Gravity Dimension that he was slowed down.



> his ps bitchslapped multiple times



Kakashi's PS was bitchslapped as well.



> and lets ignore kakashis ripping an upgraded kaguyas arm off before she could even move



Kakashi never ripped her arm off. IDK where you found that.



> where he closed her st portal



Wrong. He warped the bone, not the portal, which isn't that impressive when half-dead Obito did it.



> while just putting an arm through the same portal blitzed sasuke



He was attacked form behind by a attack he couldn't see coming (he lack sensing).



> lets hype sasuke landing a hit on naruto who was trying to talk him down through



Holding back has *nothing* to do with reaction.



> naruto consistently  dodged a far faster and superior opponent in kaguya who used a superior st technique yup



If by consistently you mean once, then yes he did


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 7, 2015)

Sasuke wins, but i am too lazy to back up my opinion with some arguements in this thread.


----------



## Mercurial (Feb 7, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Kakashi caught off guard Kaguya with his intangibility then process to Kamui Raikiri her while she was still surprised. Sasuke fought Kaguya head on and the only time he didn't he was slowed down by the Gravity Dimension.
> 
> That isn't comparable.



Caught off guard it's not an excuse. It's the typical argument to try to justify something you (a general "you", not you as personally you) don't like. But it doesn't work. Kaguya already witnessed the phasing when Kakashi used it to dodge her bone projectile. She is one who has reflexes high enough to dodge Sasuke's Chidori post Rinnegan teleportation. It's not like my sister equipped with Kamui phasing could hit Kaguya just with the surprise effect, come on this is pathetic downplay. Kaguya can be justified with the off guard/surprise effect for Naruto's Reverse Oiroke no Jutsu, that was basically a gag applied to the fight, but actually she was totally surprised. Here she saw him phasing, as strange as it can be it's a jutsu. No more wonderful or surprising than creating a giant chakra mecha, than teleport at will, to multiply one's body to hundreds, and so on. She could just have sidestepped him if she could, phasing or not, or used her S/T. She couldn't. That's it. The rest are excuses and downplay tryings.

Come on. Kakashi rushed against Kaguya with Perfect Susanoo and Kaguya rushed against Kakashi with bone projectiles. Kaguya cracked his Susanoo, then Kakashi dashed out attacking Kaguya and hit her with Kamui Raikiri with her unable to defend or even react. Are you really saying that this is not fighting head on??? And please don't say "Naruto and Sasuke were somewhere around so she was worried" because she could handle Naruto and Sasuke (together; negging both more than once, definitely negging Sasuke every single time, Naruto did better... and you say Kakashi didn't fight her head on, LOL at it when they fought her 2 vs 1 and he basically clashed right against her alone) with relative ease all the time before, and when she was weaker than when she fought Kakashi.



Max Thunder said:


> I love how you Kakashi fans use this as some kind of proof to why Kakashi should be stronger.
> 
> It's hilarious really
> 
> ...



If you outperform him in a fight, as quick as it can be, yeah.

Naruto reacted to him and dodged/parried the hit. Also Naruto wasn't even serious against Sasuke and Sasuke tried a cover attack before the Rinnegan S/T that time. And even if we want say that he hit him (he didn't) that doesn't change that we have a direct comparison, as long as you don't like it it won't change. When Sasuke was using Rinnegan teleporting + Chidori and Kakashi just dashing with Rikudo enhanced Raikiri comboing with the Kamui phasing effect, Sasuke failed to hit a weaker and slower version of Kaguya than the one Kakashi hit. You can downplay, say things all you want, that doesn't change.



Kai said:


> Kakashi's greatest strength is his tactical ability in a team setting. They overcame Kaguya with his strategy. In terms of power level, Kakashi's own power is useless as he stated himself. That is, without Obito's power he is useless. Therefore, it's only natural that we judge Kakashi's power by Obito's standards.



He attacked her head on as she attacked him head on, and he dodged her attack and hit her without her being able to defend or counter it. You can't deny or downplay it, or you're denying the manga. I'm not making my own shit, this is just something objective. Naruto and Sasuke struggled to hit a weaker and slower version of Kaguya (only Naruto could hit her) than the one Kakashi basically made look like a piece of cake. It's not my fault.

Yeah, Kakashi's own power (without Sharingan/MS, that has been his own power for most of his life; if you want to argue whose powers are the powers, basically Gai is the only person that uses only stuff from himself: Sasuke, Naruto, Madara, Obito and so on all have powers that needed other people) was useless in a fight against fucking Kaguya, the Goddess of chakra, the strongest character in the manga, and so on. Well, what a shame. You know, 99.999999999999999% of characters would be as useless in that situation as they would be ants compared to Kaguya or even to Rikudo powered Sasuke and Naruto as Sharinganless Kakashi was. Kakashi developed Obito's power and perfected maybe even better than Obito himself. I don't actually care whose powers are people's powers, I just care about how strong they are and that's it. I don't care if Nagato had Madara's eyes and without them is basically nothing, and so on.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> sasuke has indeed hit kaguya, so people need to stop using that as an excuse to say that kakashi is stronger.



She parried the hit, otherwise she would have been damaged, also it would make no sense for her to avoid a quick surprise thrust after an instant teleporting and then not avoiding a far slower attack, when she also could avoid Sasuke's Susanoo every other single time and with ease.



Zef said:


> or....and this is a big OR....
> 
> He hit Kaguya
> 
> ...



Good thing comparing 1 MS not Rikudo enhanced tired Kakashi who can't even stand on his foot to DMS Rikudo enhanced not tired Kakashi. Yeah, it's not like you are butthurt to make a comparison like that.

Also Madara didn't care of Sasuke hitting him, he stayed with only half of his body like he was perfect for all the time of his conversation with Obito. Sasuke couldn't even hit him before he could teleport away with Kamui, remember that one eyed Kamui self teleporting is slower than Gudodama, something base Rikudo Naruto react and intercepts like it's not even moving.



sabre320 said:


> you are ignoring sasukes pathetic performance against kaguya where he was blitzed easily dodged over and over again his ps bitchslapped multiple times and lets ignore kakashis ripping an upgraded kaguyas arm off before she could even move where he closed her st portal before she could initate an attack through it while just putting an arm through the same portal blitzed sasuke while kaguya was weaker and lets hype sasuke landing a hit on naruto who was trying to talk him down through his st even though naruto consistently  dodged a far faster and superior opponent in kaguya who used a superior st technique yup





sabre320 said:


> If you managed to rip muhamad alis arm off by lunging at him from 30 meters before he could even move then ya maybe you are stronger then ricky hatton because thats how far sasuke is from kaguya..
> 
> ya lets ignore sasukes whole performance against the opponent sasuke fought against kakashi cut a stronger kaguyas arm off..naruto was holding back against sasuke was trying to talk him down and sasuke used his st against him because naruto consistently dodged a faster  opponent in kaguya and a superior st..



Yeah, the butthurt is incredible. Let's conveniently ignore everything to save our little shitty personal vision of the manga, basically... in my personal manga Ebisu came and solo'd Madara and Kaguya, LoL at least it's funnier than this pathetic downplay.


----------



## Max Thunder (Feb 7, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> If you managed to rip muhamad alis arm off by lunging at him from 30 meters before he could even move then ya maybe you are stronger then ricky hatton because thats how far sasuke is from kaguya..
> 
> ya lets ignore sasukes whole performance against the opponent sasuke fought against kakashi cut a stronger kaguyas arm off..naruto was holding back against sasuke was trying to talk him down and sasuke used his st against him because naruto consistently dodged a faster  opponent in kaguya and a superior st..



you're full of shit but that ain't nothing new


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## Mercurial (Feb 7, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> And yet, latter he fucked up Naruto, who had blitzed Kaguya.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Naruto wasn't even serious, and he reacted to that attack, sorry.

That's a great excuse. It seems to work with everything, LOL. Minato wasn't faster than Obito, he caught him off guard. Gai wasn't faster than Madara, he caught him off guard. Rock Lee wasn't faster than Gaara, he caught him off guard, and so on. In my book if one is caught off guard (and there's nothing that he has no fault of involved, like distractions and so on) it's his fault and his opponent's greatness.

She dodged or negged every single of his attacks, were they physical attacks or Susanoo attacks. She also attacked him and he couldn't defend. Don't use the dimension excuse, as the gravity works against Kaguya too, and it wasn't involved in that situation, otherwise Sasuke would have said "fuck that shit, I would have hit her if the gravity didn't slow me".

And then he dodged the attack and hit Kaguya. And later countered another of her attacks. Sasuke was helpless in both offense and defense against her, and he fought a Kaguya who was weaker than the Kaguya that Kakashi fought.

Buy a pair of glasses or stop being blind and butthurt, because it's fucking clear as day. The black portal is opening, long range Kamui enters the fray, the portal is no more. What a coincidence. That's so strange ()()  maybe the portal suddenly went to eat an ice cream  it's not like it casually disappeared when a dimensional hole was opened casually upon it. Obviously it can't be that easy, logical and simple.

It was a perfectly frontal attack. She fucking started in front of him (3)(4) Sasuke wasn't fast enough to react and dodge, not even with S/T. It's his fault and Kaguya's greatness, not other excuses and shits to minimize the thing. Naruto dodged the same attack (5). And both already witnessed it before (6)(7), so no "caught off guard from the surprise" shit please. Like people should advice their opponents before they attack, also, what is this 



Max Thunder said:


> you're full of shit but that ain't nothing new


He is just talking about what happened in the manga, but that can hurt if someone is butthurt, I know. The sound of tears is delicious.


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## Hachibi (Feb 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Naruto wasn't even serious, and he reacted to that attack, sorry.



Too bad he couldn't dodge it, which was my point.



> That's a great excuse. It seems to work with everything, LOL. Minato wasn't faster than Obito, he caught him off guard. Gai wasn't faster than Madara, he caught him off guard. Rock Lee wasn't faster than Gaara, he caught him off guard, and so on. In my book if one is caught off guard (and there's nothing that he has no fault of involved, like distractions and so on) it's his fault and his opponent's greatness.



In all the exemple you stated (bar the Minato one, which was hax), they were far faster than the other, which isn't the case for Kakashi. Kaguya didn't expect him to have intangibility.

Lack of Knowledge is a thing. 



> She dodged or negged every single of his attacks, were they physical attacks or Susanoo attacks. She also attacked him and he couldn't defend. Don't use the dimension excuse, as the gravity works against Kaguya too, and it wasn't involved in that situation, otherwise Sasuke would have said "fuck that shit, I would have hit her if the gravity didn't slow me".



Sometimes, it's not needed to say things that are obvious. Plus Kaguya's Teleport doesn't need her to *physically move*, unlike Sasuke's Chidori, so irrevelant.



> And then he dodged the attack and hit Kaguya. And later countered another of her attacks. Sasuke was helpless in both offense and defense against her, and he fought a Kaguya who was weaker than the Kaguya that Kakashi fought.



Because the portal bone was for him? Not that it matter since Obito already did that.



> Buy a pair of glasses or stop being blind and butthurt, because it's fucking clear as day.



That Ad Hominem.



> The black portal is opening, long range Kamui enters the fray, the portal is no more. What a coincidence. That's so strange ()()  maybe the portal suddenly went to eat an ice cream  it's not like it casually disappeared when a dimensional hole was opened casually upon it. Obviously it can't be that easy, logical and simple.



Just because long range Kamui was used that it mean that it could wrap the portal (which, btw, isn't logical). We've seen multiple times that Kaguya's portal close itself.



> It was a perfectly frontal attack. She fucking started in front of him (3)(4)



Just because it's frontal doesn't mean that you can't be caught off guard.



> Sasuke wasn't fast enough to react and dodge, not even with S/T. It's his fault and Kaguya's greatness, not other excuses and shits to minimize the thing.



Yes, because Sasuke has sensing and can see behind him.



> Naruto dodged the same attack (5).



Because he has sensing and already seen it used on Sasuke.



> And both already witnessed it before (6)(7), so no "caught off guard from the surprise" shit please. Like people should advice their opponents before they attack, also, what is this



That was like, a different application of her power. It's not like they would guess that she doesn't need to teleport entirely to open portal. Like,what, they are mind-reader now?


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## Arles Celes (Feb 7, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> you are ignoring sasukes pathetic performance against kaguya where he was blitzed easily dodged over and over again his ps bitchslapped multiple times and lets ignore kakashis ripping an upgraded kaguyas arm off before she could even move where he closed her st portal before she could initate an attack through it while just putting an arm through the same portal blitzed sasuke while kaguya was weaker and lets hype sasuke landing a hit on naruto who was trying to talk him down through his st even though naruto consistently  dodged a far faster and superior opponent in kaguya who used a superior st technique yup



Errr, Sasuke was not blitzed by Kaguya unless you count the time when she sneak grabbed him with a s/t portal. Sasuke does not have SM sensing like Naruto btw. Sneak attacks that his eye cannot follow since they use s/t are clearly his weakness.

And she needed her own s/t to avoid getting hit every time he used his own s/t. Hardly a casual dodge.

Granted his PS hardly did good...but then again so was Kakashi's quickly destroyed too.

As for Naruto he was fighting with all he got at least after Sasuke used the bijuus and needed the whole world nature energy to match that.

Also Naruto was willing to smack a seemingly defenseless Sasuke with a rasengan.
7

Not so much holding back and just talk I think...

And Naruto wasn't dodging Kaguya's attacks all the time. Most of the fight he used KBs which were casually ripped apart Kimimaro style.
7
7
7

There is no doubt that Sasuke's performance was worse than Naruto's but then again she was a very bad match up for him. Naruto said it himself, big jutsus are not the way to go(like PS) but rather diversions and strong taijutsu. Both which Sasuke lacks since he got no super mode and does not use clones.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 7, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> sasuke could not nail kaguya with said st


Because she countered his tactic with her own S/T+speed. Not that all these comparisons really matter in the end. Kakashi does not have reactions beyond that of kaguya who was lolblitzed by naruto who sasuke blitzed twice. So i could just say that plus instant teleportation will always out-speed kakashi. I don't think there is any other way to explain it to y'all. 



> naruto was probably tired as shown by 3 guodama instead of 9


That's because he was using them and leaving them behind and never recollected them(he put 3 inside a limbo clone to hold it down and some more insdie of BZ) leaving him with only three. Madara was at the height of his power and he still only had one because kakashi and minato warp away bunch of them. 



> and sasuke never used st in conjunction with his ps


He did. The SFX that usually appeared when he uses the rinnegan shifting jutsu appeared when sasuke got behind all of naruto's kurama avatars.

Not to mention it makes little sense for sasuke to straight out blitz past four kurama avatars and then get into a equal high speed taijutsu exchange directly afterwards.


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## Kai (Feb 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> He attacked her head on as she attacked him head on, and he dodged her attack and hit her without her being able to defend or counter it. You can't deny or downplay it, or you're denying the manga. I'm not making my own shit, this is just something objective. Naruto and Sasuke struggled to hit a weaker and slower version of Kaguya (only Naruto could hit her) than the one Kakashi basically made look like a piece of cake. It's not my fault.
> 
> Yeah, Kakashi's own power (without Sharingan/MS, that has been his own power for most of his life; if you want to argue whose powers are the powers, basically Gai is the only person that uses only stuff from himself: Sasuke, Naruto, Madara, Obito and so on all have powers that needed other people) was useless in a fight against fucking Kaguya, the Goddess of chakra, the strongest character in the manga, and so on. Well, what a shame. You know, 99.999999999999999% of characters would be as useless in that situation as they would be ants compared to Kaguya or even to Rikudo powered Sasuke and Naruto as Sharinganless Kakashi was. Kakashi developed Obito's power and perfected maybe even better than Obito himself. I don't actually care whose powers are people's powers, I just care about how strong they are and that's it. I don't care if Nagato had Madara's eyes and without them is basically nothing, and so on.


For the most part, I don't care whose powers are whose either. However, Kakashi's power level is  well defined if we see what the source of his power is. Landing a hit on Kaguya doesn't put Kakashi at her or characters closest to her level, and they don't need to be to do so. 

Naruto caught Kaguya off guard and landed a hit with reverse sexy jutsu, so why the ruckus? It's how you interpret the feats and interpreting Kakashi's single hit on Kaguya as being on Naruto and Sasuke's level is not objective in my view when we know his power is the power of a low god tier.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 7, 2015)

Kai said:


> For the most part, I don't care whose powers are whose either. However, Kakashi's power level is  well defined if we see what the source of his power is. Landing a hit on Kaguya doesn't put Kakashi at her or characters closest to her level, and they don't need to be to do so.



 It's a sad day to see that Juubidara isn't inferior to Sasuke afterall.



> Naruto caught Kaguya off guard and landed a hit with reverse sexy jutsu, so why the ruckus? It's how you interpret the feats and interpreting Kakashi's single hit on Kaguya as being on Naruto and Sasuke's level is not objective in my view when we know his power is the power of a low god tier.



 Taijutsu and Diversions are implied what works best against Kaguya. That's exactly why Minato, Gaara, and Kakashi used a diversion against Juubidara. 

 How do we know his power is that of a low god? He landed a hit on a stronger and faster Kaguya. Sasuke couldn't land a hit on a weaker Kaguya.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It's a sad day to see that Juubidara isn't inferior to Sasuke afterall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kaguya was unstable with her chakra when Kakashi landed a hit on her, as i remember.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 7, 2015)

@Hachibi

you'd better stop underestimating the kid with those pitiful excuses for your beloved sasuke. 



> And yet, latter he *couldn't defeat* *exhausted, drained, holding back *Naruto,* who still won,* who had blitzed Kaguya.



and that's more or less fixed it.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 7, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Kaguya was unstable with her chakra when Kakashi landed a hit on her, as i remember.



 Here

 Here

 Here, we see that Zetsu is more confident than ever since she is stronger and faster meaning that she was stronger overall even though the chakra was unstable.

 I'm assuming the first scan shows that she managed to keep her chakra under control, but no idea.


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## Ersa (Feb 7, 2015)

Sasuke was also exhausted and drained in their last fight so I don't see how that made a difference. Plus Naruto drew upon the energy of the entire world at the end so I don't think chakra was a problem.

Either way the manga showed they were pretty much equal, slight edge to Naruto perhaps. Certainly Kakashi is not touching them, strong as he is.


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## Trojan (Feb 7, 2015)

Did Sasuke give more than 40.000 shinobi of his chakra several times? No, I suppose not. 

Was it Sasuke who was holding Kaguya back, until the others save certain someone? No.
Did not Naruto use thousands of clones against Kaguya, which is an extremely chakra consuming jutsu?
Remember how the Kid was against Nagato when he only used 13 clone? 

Who entered the War first, Naruto or Sasuke? And how many opponent has Naruto faced in comparison to Sasuke?
Did they fight the same amount of foes? No, they did not. 



> Plus Naruto drew upon the energy of the entire world at the end so I don't think chakra was a problem.


That is his own jutsu, I do not see how does that work against him. Also, the SM chakra needs to be balanced with
the user own chakra as Pa stated. 



> Either way the manga showed they were pretty much equal, slight edge to Naruto perhaps


Yeah, that when Sasuke is using all 9 Bijuus, while Naruto does not use the other 8 Bijuus.
And when Naruto does not want to kill him, and not use his strongest jutsu. I.E the 9 different TBB FRS or the
6 FRS TBBs. And when he is exhausted and lacking 6 out of 9 of his Gedu-damas 

In this situation, yes, they are around equal, even though Naruto came on top after all of that. 
in normal conditions however, and if Naruto wants to kill him, then hell no. lol 
In that case they are not even close.


Kakashi though is getting fodderstomps. It's as foolish as thinking one of the SA can put a fight against BSM Naruto because they
have his chakra. The same massacre is happening here.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> She parried the hit, otherwise she would have been damaged, also it would make no sense for her to avoid a quick surprise thrust after an instant teleporting and then not avoiding a far slower attack, when she also could avoid Sasuke's Susanoo every other single time and with ease.


no, that isnt whats shown. kaguya got hit and she simply didnt take damage.


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## ARGUS (Feb 8, 2015)

Alright, since there seems to be some arguments, ill explain why Sasuke wins this mid/high diff 

 -- Kakashis PS gets overwhelmed by Sasukes own PS, a PS that is powered up by ALL of Hagoromos Yin Chakra is tiers above a PS that is just powered up by a minor portion of rikudo chakra that is transmitted to pseudo jin obito, so repeated slashes fromm Sasukes obliterate kakashis PS within a matter of minutes 

 -- Kamui shurikens are non factor, when enton projecties, PS swords and a PS slash alone can make them dissappear, 

 -- Kamui raikiri is also non factor, databook has already stated that it only warps what it pierces, so preta path absorbs the raikiri and renders the entire jutsu useless, amenotejikara can also be used to evade kakashis attack 

 -- Outside of PS, kakashis kamui is reacted to,and the ssecond he solidifies to attack, his kamui gets outspeeded by amenotejikara, and he gets a sword teleported to his chest, resulting in his death, 

 --  engaging sasuke in CQC is also not helpful, not when that leaves kakashi susceptible to rinnegan genjutsu, which he cant counter, since his eyes are inferior, as this case would be exactly like the tsukuyomi vs Kakashi incident where kakashi had no means of breaking free due to possessing inferior eyes


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## Ersa (Feb 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Did Sasuke give more than 40.000 shinobi of his chakra several times? No, I suppose not.
> 
> Was it Sasuke who was holding Kaguya back, until the others save certain someone? No.
> Did not Naruto use thousands of clones against Kaguya, which is an extremely chakra consuming jutsu?
> ...


Did Naruto summon 9 meteors to seal the Bijuu? Unlike Naruto, Sasuke lacks a chakra battery to top himself off constantly. Let's just agree they were both not in great shape. 

See, they're both pretty beaten up.


That doesn't mean shit what Naruto used, Sasuke used S/T, Perfect Susanoo, Enton and a whole tonne of shit as well in the Kaguya fight. What are you even trying to prove beyond the fact they were both tired?

The fight was a be all end all and it ended up with them both losing an arm and Sasuke admitting defeat which indicates a slight edge to Naruto. It doesn't change the fact it was stated that Sasuke was at Hagaromo's level and pushed Naruto to the limit.

That is not the fact of a guy holding back, not Sasuke nor Naruto.

I don't even see what you want to prove. Naruto is stronger just not by much. Why does it even matter?


----------



## Trojan (Feb 8, 2015)

I am so tired now, so


> I don't even see what you want to prove. Naruto is stronger just not by much. *Why does it even matter?*



Because that is underestimating Naruto. He is at least a full tier above Sasuke's level is he is serious and using
his full power.


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 8, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Did Naruto summon 9 meteors to seal the Bijuu? Unlike Naruto, Sasuke lacks a chakra battery to top himself off constantly. Let's just agree they were both not in great shape.


using CT  of that size is not a great chakra feat, especially when it comes to god tiers, 
the amount of chakra that naruto had used, and the amount of fights that he had fought throughout the war takes a steamy hot dump on any chakra feat that sasuke did, 

and as for chakra battery Lol No, sasuke was getting help from everyone else, was getting kyuubi cloaks, juugos senjutsu boost, and then got hagoromo roids to power himself up, 
he has ALL of his YIN chakra, that is a greater chakra battery than youur normal 50% kurama



> See, they're both pretty beaten up.


actually they both dont seem that beaten up, 
iif anyone is, itll be naruto alot more so than sasuke, 
given the fact that he fought kaguya and contributed far more than sasuke did, 
hell even Kakashi, did more than sasuke ever did in that fight despite the fact that he had his DMS only for a few minutes 



> The fight was a be all end all and it ended up with them both losing an arm and Sasuke admitting defeat which indicates a slight edge to Naruto.


Except the fact that sasuke needed the help of every single bijuu to combat naruto 
just goes to show that if he didnt  have the bijuus with him, he wouldnt have stood a chance 



> It doesn't change the fact it was stated that Sasuke was at Hagaromo's level and pushed Naruto to the limit.


THis was never stated at all, that was a mistranslation 
he was only stated to be equal to hagoromo interms of controlling and merging the bijuu chakra,
not seeing how sasuke is even above non jin hagoromo let alone prime jjin rikudo 



> That is not the fact of a guy holding back, not Sasuke nor Naruto.
> 
> I don't even see what you want to prove. Naruto is stronger just not by much. Why does it even matter?


Agreed, Sasuke with Bijjuus = VOTE2 Naruto 
narutos  kurama avatars were getting smacked left and right by BPS, to an  extent where numbers  meant jack shit 
and naruto still needed his full power which was the ashura avatar (nature energy boost) to combat sasuke,, 

take away the bijuus for sasuke and he gets spanked, especially if we go by feats,


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## Zef (Feb 8, 2015)

>People ignoring that Sasuke maintained control of the Bijuu/CT throughout the final fight.(And after it)

>People saying a jutsu capable of sealing a tailed beast isn't a good feat.


Lol, okay


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## Mercurial (Feb 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Kaguya was unstable with her chakra when Kakashi landed a hit on her, as i remember.



Well you aren't remembering well. She was stronger/faster than ever when she fought against Kakashi (1).


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## Max Thunder (Feb 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I am so tired now, so
> 
> 
> Because that is underestimating Naruto. He is at least a full tier above Sasuke's level is he is serious and using
> his full power.



HAHAHAHA this proves how delusional you are.

That is purely speculation....


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## Hachibi (Feb 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> @Hachibi
> 
> you'd better stop underestimating the kid with those pitiful excuses for your beloved sasuke.



I never underestimated Naruto. You just think that because it's true 



> and that's more or less fixed it.



>Implying it mattered in the long run

Hussain plz


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## Bonly (Feb 10, 2015)

Sasuke slices and dices Kakashi eventually thanks to Amenojikara, it's gonna get Sasuke close to Kakashi to finish him off before Kakashi can react to defend eventually.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Feb 11, 2015)

Close matchup but kakashi definitely has a good shot at winning.

Most of the posters saying, sasuke "insert OP technique here" GG, aren't even taking into account DMS kakashi's potential.

I see why you are hated Raikiri19. People must hate when someone else posts a good analysis.


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## Euraj (Feb 11, 2015)

^ Rather people hate when illogical positions are defended because of unbelievable bias. When considering what Naruto and Sasuke are actually supposed to represent in the story and previous demonstrations of the outright trouncing that occurs when someone goes one-on-one with a fighter just a step out of their league, it really isn't that hard to swallow that Naruto and Sasuke can defeat Kakashi in several ways without a massive deal of effort.


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## sabre320 (Feb 12, 2015)

Euraj said:


> ^ Rather people hate when illogical positions are defended because of unbelievable bias. When considering what Naruto and Sasuke are actually supposed to represent in the story and previous demonstrations of the outright trouncing that occurs when someone goes one-on-one with a fighter just a step out of their league, it really isn't that hard to swallow that Naruto and Sasuke can defeat Kakashi in several ways without a massive deal of effort.



no people ignoring manga feats due to their preconceived opinions and set mindset is frustrating rikudo kakashi was placed in the kaguya fight because he was on a similar tier and he outperperformed sasuke people goinglol sasuke wins lol gg is whats frustrating...


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## Kai (Feb 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> no people ignoring manga feats due to their preconceived opinions and set mindset is frustrating rikudo kakashi was placed in the kaguya fight because he was on a similar tier and he outperperformed sasuke people goinglol sasuke wins lol gg is whats frustrating...


He's not on a similar level to any of them. We know where Obito's power stands.


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## Zef (Feb 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> no people ignoring manga feats


Sasuke's manga feats are superior though.His destruction output dwarfs anything Kakashi has shown. Kamui shuriken is literally Kakashi's strongest attack, and that doesn't phase Sasuke for a plethora of reasons.


> due to their preconceived opinions and set mindset


More lIke common sense.Only those who ignore the authors intent would believe Kakashi stands a remote chance against the likes of Naruto, and Sasuke. 


> frustrating rikudo kakashi was placed in the kaguya fight because he was on a similar tier and he outperperformed sasuke people goinglol sasuke wins lol gg is whats frustrating...



Kakashi performing better than Sasuke against an opponent isn't a testament of their differing strengths, but  of how Kakashi's moveset  was more suited to dealing with Kaguya. Unless we intend to put Sakura above Sasuke as well then I suggest we stop using this "outperformed" argument.

The only reason Sakura, and Kakashi were performing better then Sasuke was because of what he said here:

Let's not act daft, and ignore the fact that Kakashi's pity power-up was there to make Sasuke eat his words.
Hence the reason Kakashi ended up directing when at first he gave the position to Sasuke. 

Then 


Later


The authors intent (obviously) wasn't to show Kakashi>Sasuke.
It was to hammer in his teamwork message, and get back at Sasuke for what he said. 

But even looking at Sasuke's performance during the Kaguya fight, alot aren't even looking at what transpired after it 


*"I've learned how to control the Rinnegan a lot better after this battle"*
What battle? The Kaguya battle.

VOTE Sasuke>>>Rinnegan Sasuke> DMS Kakashi who can only maintain pity power-up for five minutes.


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## sabre320 (Feb 12, 2015)

Kai said:


> He's not on a similar level to any of them. We know where Obito's power stands.



Thats the thing isnt it you give the same powers to different people you cant thing they are going to perform the same....a near dead obito managed to ram his fist through juubidaras chest and steal his chakra...he was practically living on will..give hashiramas sage mode to madara and he was able to troll tobiramas ftg surprise attacks..while hashirama was getting pumped full of rods by edo madara....you give half of hagoromos powerto naruto and he was blitzing kaguya and ripping her arm off...the fact is rikudo kakashi performed on a level that was on the duos level he outperformed sasuke against an upgraded kaguya so denying manga feats and downplaying his performane because you thing he is the same as obito is fallacious..


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## Crimson Flam3s (Feb 12, 2015)

If you wanna talk about pity powerups we can easily mention naruto's and sasuke's thanks to hagoromo, but that's not what this is about.

He is tactically superior to sasuke and also has a comparable strenght and phasing, he is not getting extremely outclassed anywhere.

He is always portrayed as someone who lacks the firepower but makes up for it with his strategies. 

Well in this case he has the brains and the firepower and we can see easily how he changed the tide of the battle.


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## Alucardemi (Feb 12, 2015)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> If you wanna talk about pity powerups we can easily mention naruto's and sasuke's thanks to hagoromo, but that's not what this is about.



Say whatever you want about feats and that garbage, but Kakashi's and Sakura's roles in the final fight are the paragon of mis-handled author pity. 

Think about Naruto and Sasuke's power-ups and what they represent in the story. All of it. The brother's feud, the foreshadowing of them surpassing their previous transmigrants, the fact that it had to happen to advance the plot.

Now think about Kakashi's out-of-nowhere power-up. What was its purpose?

Zero. Its the definition of a pity power-up to make Sasuke eat his words about teamwork. Which a better manga really wouldn't need to do.

And the worst of it all is that Kakashi is now utter fodder after losing Obito's power, so much so that he was saved by Sasuke after he had resigned to his death by meteor 



lolkishi


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## Altair21 (Feb 12, 2015)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> If you wanna talk about pity powerups we can easily mention naruto's and sasuke's thanks to hagoromo, but that's not what this is about.
> 
> He is tactically superior to sasuke and also *has a comparable strenght* and phasing, he is not getting extremely outclassed anywhere.
> 
> ...



Seriously?  Was Kakashi shown to have the firepower to bust meteors that utterly dwarf mountain ranges? Was Kakashi shown to be able to clash equally with a rikudo enhanced tailed beast bomb? 

Kakashi's firepower isn't anywhere near Sasuke's. If we go with The Last Sasuke then it's even worse considering the guy can bust village size meteors with a base chidori. God forbid epilogue Sasuke.


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## Euraj (Feb 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> no people ignoring manga feats due to their preconceived opinions and set mindset is frustrating rikudo kakashi was placed in the kaguya fight because he was on a similar tier and he outperperformed sasuke people goinglol sasuke wins lol gg is whats frustrating...


 What was frustrating was trying to read that run-on sentence. You're a pot calling the kettle black now. Clowns come in here, looking at only the names in the title and the circumstances only for the sake of knowing how they need to rationalize their position. He didn't "outperperform" Sasuke at all. He was deliberately given a circumstance where he can be effective to bring back Team 7's teamwork and make a point about the arrogant ass Sasuke was being after he got his last powerup. Sakura's hit-to-miss ratio against Kaguya was better than Sasuke's as well. Does that she's on the god level tier?


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## Icegaze (Feb 12, 2015)

What I just don't get in this thread is 
How people assume Shinra tensei can't do anything to kamui 
Or preta path 
Kakashi can kamui a Jinton something very similar to madara black balls 
It doesn't at all indicate he can kamui someone using something that absorbs the chakra which the barrier is made out of 

Also sasuke has his ST which btw he used to blitz naruto
I seriously don't see how he doesn't get in Kakashi face off the bat

Kakashi also can't phase and snipe at the same time

As to the naruto sasuke comparison 
Please note that naruto +SM+ 9 bijuu= sasuke+rinnengan +EMS+9 bijuu
Take away the help of other bijuu from naruto and he was very much equal to sasuke without the 9 bijuu
It's off how people forget that and try to hype naruto as stronger 

The naruto that fought kaguya had the assistance of 9 bijuu clearly he would be stronger than sasuke without the same boost 
With just kyuubi rinnegan sasuke = RSM naruto


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## Kai (Feb 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:
			
		

> Thats the thing isnt it you give the same powers to different people you cant thing they are going to perform the same....a near dead obito managed to ram his fist through juubidaras chest and steal his chakra...he was practically living on will..give hashiramas sage mode to madara and he was able to troll tobiramas ftg surprise attacks..while hashirama was getting pumped full of rods by edo madara....you give half of hagoromos powerto naruto and he was blitzing kaguya and ripping her arm off...the fact is rikudo kakashi performed on a level that was on the duos level he outperformed sasuke against an upgraded kaguya so denying manga feats and downplaying his performane because you thing he is the same as obito is fallacious..


They will perform the same when the man who self admittedly is useless without that power, is given that power. They will perform the same when Kakashi has always performed the same stunts cooperatively with and adversely against Obito using Obito's power throughout the entire war.

Different strategies have only come in play when Kakashi uses teamwork to its highest efficacy. That's his true power, which allows weaker team members to defeat a vastly stronger enemy using his unrivaled tactical ability. 

Let's not pretend Obito's power is on Naruto and Sasuke's level when Kakashi's power is exactly what that is. It's also been addressed multiple times why it doesn't require people to be on their power level to be useful and land a hit against Kaguya.


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## Mercurial (Feb 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> What I just don't get in this thread is
> How people assume Shinra tensei can't do anything to kamui
> Or preta path
> Kakashi can kamui a Jinton something very similar to madara black balls
> ...



# 2015
# Still survivors thinking that Preta Path or Shinra Tensei can counter Kamui

Not that it matters in the first place, when Sasuke can't even react to a long range Kamui, as he couldn't do anything against a S/T that Kakashi's Kamui outpaced.


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## Icegaze (Feb 12, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> # 2015
> # Still survivors thinking that Preta Path or Shinra Tensei can counter Kamui
> 
> Not that it matters in the first place, when Sasuke can't even react to a long range Kamui, as he couldn't do anything against a S/T that Kakashi's Kamui outpaced.



Sasuke did blitz naruto though 
Wonder how he did that 
Naruto is certainly fast enough to avoid kamui wouldn't you say ? 

Sasuke actually blitz naruto twice . Hmmm wonder how he pulled that off 

Kakashi can't react to sasuke using s/t and slicing him in half 

 Performing better than a sasuke who couldn't use his rinnegan properly isn't a big deal 
Unless u think Sakura is also on sasuke level now 

More even


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## Mercurial (Feb 12, 2015)

Kai said:


> They will perform the same when the man who self admittedly is useless without that power, is given that power. They will perform the same when Kakashi has always performed the same stunts cooperatively with and adversely against Obito using Obito's power throughout the entire war.
> 
> Different strategies have only come in play when Kakashi uses teamwork to its highest efficacy. That's his true power, which allows weaker team members to defeat a vastly stronger enemy using his unrivaled tactical ability.
> 
> Let's not pretend Obito's power is on Naruto and Sasuke's level when Kakashi's power is exactly what that is. It's also been addressed multiple times why it doesn't require people to be on their power level to be useful and land a hit against Kaguya.



Don't be falsely blind, Sharinganless Kakashi was feeling useless because he couldn't contribute in a fight against the Goddess of chakra, the strongest character in the manga, someone who surpasses even Juubi jin Madara. He was heavily powered down from his symbolic power being lost after so many years. Nagato would be as useless against Kaguya. Is Nagato a useless fodder because he can't do shit against Kaguya? No. Is Sharinganless Kakashi a useless fodder because he can't do shit against Kaguya of all people? 

Also it's ridiculous to say that the same people would perform equally with the same power. Do you think that Dms Tenten would be as strong as Dms Obito that would hypothetically be as strong as Dms Kakashi? Compare Shippuden beginning Kakashi with Kamui to War Arc Kakashi with Kamui. Same power. Don't count better feats in other things as chakra etc just think of a Kamui fight. But due to your philosophy they would draw...



Euraj said:


> What was frustrating was trying to read that run-on sentence. You're a pot calling the kettle black now. Clowns come in here, looking at only the names in the title and the circumstances only for the sake of knowing how they need to rationalize their position. He didn't "outperperform" Sasuke at all. He was deliberately given a circumstance where he can be effective to bring back Team 7's teamwork and make a point about the arrogant ass Sasuke was being after he got his last powerup. Sakura's hit-to-miss ratio against Kaguya was better than Sasuke's as well. Does that she's on the god level tier?


I like how you can create a great fanfiction on a hypothetical author intent. Can you provide proofs other than your personal belief? Also, even if for absurd you could, how would that deny Kakashi's feats? 

Did Sakura attack Kaguya head on, leading his team, countering some of her attacks, dodging others, wounding her 1 vs 1, stopping her counterattack? It's incredible how you are trying to grasp at straws.


----------



## Mercurial (Feb 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sasuke did blitz naruto though
> Wonder how he did that
> Naruto is certainly fast enough to avoid kamui wouldn't you say ?
> 
> ...



Naruto reacted, even with difficulty. Also a non serious Naruto vs dead serious Sasuke with killing intent.

He can. 

Having Chibaku or Preta or not having doesn't change shit against Kamui,also his reflexes are the same. And he couldn't defend from a S/ T that Kakashi's Kamui outpaced, and he was dodged, in spite of the surprise attack, by the same person that Kakashi hit when in a stronger and faster form with a direct attack.


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## Kai (Feb 12, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Don't be falsely blind, Sharinganless Kakashi was feeling useless because he couldn't contribute in a fight against the Goddess of chakra, the strongest character in the manga, someone who surpasses even Juubi jin Madara. He was heavily powered down from his symbolic power being lost after so many years. Nagato would be as useless against Kaguya. Is Nagato a useless fodder because he can't do shit against Kaguya? No. Is Sharinganless Kakashi a useless fodder because he can't do shit against Kaguya of all people?
> 
> Also it's ridiculous to say that the same people would perform equally with the same power. Do you think that Dms Tenten would be as strong as Dms Obito that would hypothetically be as strong as Dms Kakashi? Compare Shippuden beginning Kakashi with Kamui to War Arc Kakashi with Kamui. Same power. Don't count better feats in other things as chakra etc just think of a Kamui fight. But due to your philosophy they would draw...


This is the bottom line. By arguing Kakashi is on Naruto and Sasuke's level is to presume one of two things:
1. Kakashi is tiers above Obito's power.
2. Obito's power is on Naruto and Sasuke's level.

Either of which require ignorance of many plot and power progressions to believe.


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## Altair21 (Feb 12, 2015)

Why are you guys still arguing with this kid? He even puts Kakashi above Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara with 3 rinnegan whom was going to require both Naruto and Sasuke to beat.  Put him on your ignore list and be done with it. He's not worth the effort.


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## Icegaze (Feb 12, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Naruto reacted, even with difficulty. Also a non serious Naruto vs dead serious Sasuke with killing intent.
> 
> He can.
> 
> Having Chibaku or Preta or not having doesn't change shit against Kamui,also his reflexes are the same. And he couldn't defend from a S/ T that Kakashi's Kamui outpaced, and he was dodged, in spite of the surprise attack, by the same person that Kakashi hit when in a stronger and faster form with a direct attack.



Talking about reflexes 
How does not being serious dull naruto reflexes twice ?
Considering they are reflexes and aren't voluntary ?

It's nt just having 2 jutsu 
It's being Able to use his rinnegan better which is what he said 
Not btw I can use 2 new jutsu now 

Experience with any dojutsu makes all round stats better this is comically obvious 

Sasuke hit naruto twice 
U gotta prove Kakashi has better reflexes than naruto 
Till then sasuke hits Kakashi which by proxy kills him


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## Euraj (Feb 12, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> I like how you can create a great fanfiction on a hypothetical author intent. Can you provide proofs other than your personal belief? Also, even if for absurd you could, how would that deny Kakashi's feats?
> 
> Did Sakura attack Kaguya head on, leading his team, countering some of her attacks, dodging others, wounding her 1 vs 1, stopping her counterattack? It's incredible how you are trying to grasp at straws.


If "fanfiction" is your term for god damn common sense, then sure. You call it that. It's my "personal belief" that if I walk outside, I won't be in outer space. Now, I don't have a written note from the Earth saying that, but it's an easy assumption to make given the circumstances. 

Like it's an easy assumption to make that if Kakashi fought Kaguya by himself, like both Naruto and Sasuke did on several occasions that, he would have gotten rolled and smoked like a Philly Blunt. Regardless, Sasuke and Naruto are the ones with the extraordinary feats here. The burden of proof is on you to prove Sasuke just can't shift behind him and hit him with Genjutsu: Rinnegan since from what I can see, Kakashi has nothing to counter it.


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## sabre320 (Feb 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sasuke did blitz naruto though
> Wonder how he did that
> Naruto is certainly fast enough to avoid kamui wouldn't you say ?
> 
> ...



Funny thing abt that ice naruto was trying to talk down sasuke and sasuke suddenly rushed him with his st on the other hand naruto consistently dodged a faster opponent in kaguya and dodged her superior st...

sasuke blitzed narutos avatar when fueled by the bijuu..

ahan sasuke used his rinnegan better to gain tiny ct and preta how does that help him?
and plz dont compare sakura with kakashi ...sakura only landed the hit because kaguya was pressured and neutralized by saskue naruto and kakashi...

funny thing is kakashi can turn intangible so fast that not even kaguya can hit him...sasuke uses his st and it goes on cooldown he cant use it consecutively on the other hand  kakashi can spam kamui and sasuke needs his st to dodge it his base speed isnt cutting it..


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## Icegaze (Feb 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Funny thing abt that ice naruto was trying to talk down sasuke and sasuke suddenly rushed him with his st on the other hand naruto consistently dodged a faster opponent in kaguya and dodged her superior st...
> 
> sasuke blitzed narutos avatar when fueled by the bijuu..
> 
> ...



Both times sasuke blitz barite they weren't talking 
The fight had started no talking happened 
Nice fanfic though 

Naruto  was filled by the bijuu as well it's odd how people forget that 
Sasuke absorbed the bijuu to be on par with naruto who already had 9 bijuu powers 

Sasuke got better control of his s/to entirely possible the cooldown isn't all that long considering even when he was a newb at rinnegan he used it twice in the same chapter 

As for Kakashi spamming kamui that can easily be prevented by sasuke using PS

Kakasgi has 2 options either wrap the entire head of PS
Or use kamui twice on the diamond sasuke is in 

Once to get rid of the chakra there and once to actually harm sasuke 

Quite obviously sasuke has more than once way to deal with kamui snipe which is the only thing remotely threatening him 

Everything sasuke has can threaten Kakashi who can't phase forever and all his jutsu simply get trolled by preta 

Kamui could be the only exception


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## Zef (Feb 12, 2015)

Let me just say that I don't hate Kakashi. 

I just don't see why people are putting him above Naruto, and Sasuke.

1)Kaguya
2)Hagoromo
3)Adult Naruto/Adult Sasuke
4)VOTE Naruto/VOTE Sasuke
5)3 eyed JJ Madara/Toneri
6)DMS Kakashi
7)8th Gate Gai
8)JJ Obito

4 & 5 may, or may not be interchangeable...

IMO, Kakashi at his strongest is above JJ Obito, but below JJ Madara. Everyone from Madara up beat him because they pack more firepower, or simply outlast him.The time limit of DMS is the main issue here.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 12, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Naruto reacted, even with difficulty. Also a non serious Naruto vs dead serious Sasuke with killing intent.
> 
> He can.
> 
> Having Chibaku or Preta or not having doesn't change shit against Kamui,also his reflexes are the same. And he couldn't defend from a S/ T that Kakashi's Kamui outpaced, and he was dodged, in spite of the surprise attack, by the same person that Kakashi hit when in a stronger and faster form with a direct attack.



To be honest lacking killing intent does have nothing to do with dodging attacks. Its not like he has to restrict himself there as Sasuke won't die if Naruto dodges his attacks.

Using CT can force Kakashi to become tangible if he wants to destroy them and so they can work to give Sasuke an opening kinda like KBs. Sasuke can control them and move them like he wishes.

And though Kamui is quite broken I kinda doubt Kakashi can snipe while staying intangible.


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## ShinobisWill (Feb 15, 2015)

Sasuke wins mid-to-midhigh difficulty. This isn't simple work for Sasuke, but he'd overwhelm Kakashi eventually over time.

We've never seen Kakashi snipe and phase at the same time, nor Obito, however, there was simply never a situation that called for it too. We can't rule out the possibility of them being able to do that, as no, sniping with Kamui has nothing to do with being "physical", so there is no contradiction to being able to phase while doing so if you have both eyes.

Obito's MS is the only MS that seemingly could use two techniques together in combination, however. We've seen Obito warp in Kaguya's dimension using both eyes, and that alone proved that the eyes can be activated at the exact same time, which means sniping and phasing at the same time seems more likely to be true, rather than not. Even if we lack an actual feat of it, we have a feat of both eyes being used at the same time (albeit for a different function). 

If Kakashi can do that, killing him is going to be difficult for anyone around or even above Sasuke's level (it's already hard with the right MS alone). Not to mention the doubled warp speed, and yes, Kaguya was blitzed, even if it was just her being caught off guard (she should be faster than basically anyone in the series, save for Gai when he was in 8 gate). She had her eyes on Kakashi the entire time and didn't show any attempt at resistance against Kakashi's attack. 

The only reason Sakura hit Kaguya is because she had her eyes away from her while dodging much more threatening attacks from Naruto and Sasuke. That has nothing to do with true speed, reaction or reflexes. It was a timed and fortunate-situation hit. Kakashi's hit was, at least for that moment, getting the better of Kaguya objectively with no excuses.

But in either scenario, Sasuke wins in the end. He would outlast Kakashi. Kakashi's main ace over Sasuke is his brain, which would be potentially the only way to make up for the power difference between them and have a chance. Sasuke's odds look better, however.


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## Icegaze (Feb 15, 2015)

You can't snipe and phase at the same time 
Must be tangible to snipe 
Simply put . Phasing means you aren't tangible 

kakashi and obito already explained that . Having both eyes won't change that 
Considering obito used both eyes to teleport . 
Also phasing is also kamui . Not a different ability so having both eyes at best would mean he can phase even quicker it would not give him the ability to ignore the simple mechanics of his jutsu which is you must be tangible to attack your opponent


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## ShinobisWill (Feb 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> You can't snipe and phase at the same time
> Must be tangible to snipe
> Simply put . Phasing means you aren't tangible
> 
> ...




Show me Kakashi and Obito explaining that, now. Your claim holds no weight until then, and not a moment sooner. And it must be in reference to both versions of Kamui being used together.

You keep saying that Kakashi and Obito explained this: Where is the proof? I've read the entire manga, and I'm someone who keeps tabs on everything related to powers/abilities in this manga. 

Kamui snipe itself is not a tangible act attached to Kakashi's body. It's the same category as Susano'o: Which Kakashi showed he can use while using Kamui phase. The only things Kamui phase restricts are physical acts with his own body, and Kamui phase did not in any way impact Kakashi's Susano'o or negate it outright. It was still physical, still activated and still being destroyed by Kaguya's bones. Therefore, there's no reason to believe that Kamui phase would impact Kamui snipe.

Your logic "You must be tangible to attack" does not at all impact a technique like Kamui snipe. Kakashi's Susano'o had the ability to attack and stay active as Kakashi phased his body with Kamui. They are the same tech by name, but both have completely different functions and clearly are two variations, not the same technique  exactly.


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## Max Thunder (Feb 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Both times sasuke blitz barite they weren't talking
> The fight had started no talking happened
> Nice fanfic though
> 
> ...



I've told him this 1000 times before but for some reason he keeps bringing it up.


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## Icegaze (Feb 15, 2015)

ShinobisWill said:


> Show me Kakashi and Obito explaining that, now. Your claim holds no weight until then, and not a moment sooner.
> 
> You keep saying that Kakashi and Obito explained this: Where is the proof? I've read the entire manga, and I'm someone who keeps tabs on everything related to powers/abilities in this manga.
> 
> ...




Read the obito Vs naruto , Kakashi and gai 
Also keep better tabs 
Kakashi clearly says he can be either intangible or attack with his kamui and wrap U away 
Obito kamui and Kakashi kamui are the exact same thing 
Used in different ways . Obito is perfectly able to kamui smipe however never did it that way cuz he never thought of it 
For obito to wrap someone he has to be physically present 
Read the DB and manga before spouting 

Also feel free to show me an intangible Kakashi kamui snipping till then assuming he can is the dumbest thing ever . 
Kamui snipe requires physical presence . His body has to be physically in that dimension 
Only a moron would ignore that


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2015)

Zef said:


> I just don't see why people are putting him above Naruto, and Sasuke.



I don't see why people would put him even above BM Naruto or EMS Madara honestly. 
he is thee most overrated character in recent history. lol



> Naruto was filled by the bijuu as well it's odd how people forget that
> Sasuke absorbed the bijuu to be on par with naruto who already had 9 bijuu powers



:rofl :rofl
Naruto had only a little of their chakra, and he did NOT use any of it against Sasuke. 
He only used Kurama's chakra.


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## ShinobisWill (Feb 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Read the obito Vs naruto , Kakashi and gai
> Also keep better tabs
> Kakashi clearly says he can be either intangible or attack with his kamui and wrap U away
> Obito kamui and Kakashi kamui are the exact same thing
> ...



Cite me actual sources. And try using good arguments and perception next time before talking trash about my own "tabs", when yours are clearly much more lackluster. This is pathetic.

Kakashi was talking about attacking WITH HIS BODY and phasing. Not Kamui snipe + Kamui phase. Obito's way of warping something into Kamui is via touching with his hand, which is *OBVIOUSLY NOT POSSIBLE WITH KAMUI PHASE*. It's a direct counter, not a 100% rule on Obito being unable to do anything offensive potentially. It just can't be physical with his body.

Obito cannot Kamui snipe. It isn't because "he never thought of it", which is your retarded way of rationalizing the holes in your argument so you can continue believing what you want. It's because he literally cannot do it. He can potentially cancel Kamui snipe at best by warping something back out (like he did with the Mazou), but nothing more. That isn't the same thing. 

Kamui snipe is akin to Susano'o. Susano'o was active, physical and able to ATTACK if it so wished as Kakashi phased his body, which already proves your "can't attack with anything tangible while phasing" rule incorrect to begin with. The restrictions are on Kakashi/Obito's body, not on their other eye abilities that are offensive.


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## Zef (Feb 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't see why people would put him even above BM Naruto or EMS Madara honestly.
> he is thee most overrated character in recent history. lol
> 
> 
> ...



I blame Kishi tbh. He makes these characters pull ridiculous feats without putting the power scale into consideration. 

Then again, I'm sure things like power scale, or inflation are foreign concepts to most mangaka.

BM Naruto, and EMS Madara have shown much more raw power than DMS Kakashi, but people will still give the win to Kakashi simply because he touched Kaguya. Apparently who can touch who determines who wins these days.


Edit:*"He only used Kurama's chakra"*

So Rikudou Sage Mode is only Kurama's chakra?


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## ShinobisWill (Feb 15, 2015)

Obito cannot warp himself and phase at the same time because his single eye can only perform one job at a time, not two. This changes with two eyes (as seen when he used both eyes together to warp in Kaguya's dimension). Not to mention that phasing and warping yourself is sending your body to Kamui land in two different ways, therefore it might be clashing with the other function and not be possible since both are working towards the same/similar goal. But this would be different if warping other objects (but that's irrelevant towards Obito's single right eye, as he needs to be touching something to warp it into Kamui Land. Another direction clash)

And the only reason he could not warp objects/people and phase at the same time, besides the fact that his single eye can only perform one job at a time, is because he cannot touch something and phase at the same time. Obito with his single eye can only warp people into Kamui land via touch with his body/hand. His left eye, the one Kakashi is known for, does not require this to warp objects.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2015)

> =Zef;52894011]I blame Kishi tbh. He makes these characters pull ridiculous feats without putting the power scale into consideration.
> 
> Then again, I'm sure things like power scale, or inflation are foreign concepts to most mangaka.



You said it yourself. People read way too much into it. Though if you asked them is Sakura superior to Kakashi/Sasuke, and half of Naruto's chakra, they would rage. Kakashi get this treatment because he is more popular and/or likeable character than Sakura for example. 


> BM Naruto, and EMS Madara have shown much more raw power than DMS Kakashi, but people will still give the win to Kakashi simply because he touched Kaguya. Apparently who can touch who determines who wins these days.


I know, which is why he is thee most overrated character in recent history, and it's that why the Sakura example is given. lol 



> Edit:*"He only used Kurama's chakra"*
> 
> So Rikudou Sage Mode is only Kurama's chakra?


Obviously I am talking in regard of  the Bijuu's chakra.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

ShinobisWill said:


> Cite me actual sources. And try using good arguments and perception next time before talking trash about my own "tabs", when yours are clearly much more lackluster. This is pathetic.
> 
> Kakashi was talking about attacking WITH HIS BODY and phasing. Not Kamui snipe + Kamui phase. Obito's way of warping something into Kamui is via touching with his hand, which is *OBVIOUSLY NOT POSSIBLE WITH KAMUI PHASE*. It's a direct counter, not a 100% rule on Obito being unable to do anything offensive potentially. It just can't be physical with his body.
> 
> ...




Do show me a source with kamui smipe and phasing 
Till then stfu
Susanoo was active then he phased . The susanoo wouldn't instantly dissappear 
But like I said do provide a source
Also if obito can't long distance kamui how on earth did he cancel Kakashi kamui on gedo mazo 
I guess to make an argument you would say he wishfully thought it 

You cannot physically perfom any attack without being in that dimension that's like idiot proof . 

Also restricted its stated in the OP


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

ShinobisWill said:


> Kamui snipe is akin to Susano'o. Susano'o was active, physical and able to ATTACK if it so wished as Kakashi phased his body, which already proves your "can't attack with anything tangible while phasing" rule incorrect to begin with. The restrictions are on Kakashi/Obito's body, not on their other eye abilities that are offensive.


 

Bijuu who can help coach him

 You can see Susanoo diminishing right when he gets stabbed.


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## Source (Feb 16, 2015)

Max Thunder said:


> I've told him this 1000 times before but for some reason he keeps bringing it up.



9 Bijuu powers are Naruto's power. He has their chakra in his body, and their chakra combined with Senjutsu is his equivalent power-up to Sasuke's Rinnegan. He can freely use their power at any time. Sasuke getting that power isn't "evening the playing field", it's temporarily completely overwhelming Naruto by attaining both powers for a short time because of *preparation* before the fight.

It's meaningless in a battledome setting unless Bijuu amped Susano'o Sasuke is the version specified in the OP. It isn't, so him blitzing in that form Naruto is completely irrelevant and I don't know it was brought up. 

On-topic: Sasuke wins with mid-high difficulty. The remnants of Obito's Six Paths chakra made Kakashi surprisingly powerful, but Sasuke will overwhelm him.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

Source said:


> 9 Bijuu powers are Naruto's power. He has their chakra in his body, and their chakra combined with Senjutsu is his equivalent power-up to Sasuke's Rinnegan. He can freely use their power at any time. Sasuke getting that power isn't "evening the playing field", it's temporarily completely overwhelming Naruto by attaining both powers for a short time because of *preparation* before the fight.
> 
> It's meaningless in a battledome setting unless Bijuu amped Susano'o Sasuke is the version specified in the OP. It isn't, so him blitzing in that form Naruto is completely irrelevant and I don't know it was brought up.
> 
> On-topic: Sasuke wins with mid-high difficulty. The remnants of Obito's Six Paths chakra made Kakashi surprisingly powerful, but Sasuke will overwhelm him.



Bijuu powers aren't naruto power 
They all gave him their power before the SO6P gave naruto his abilities 
Therefore sasuke evened the playing field by getting the bijuu powers as well 

Since SO6P didn't give either of them bijuu powers 

Very obvious
RSM naruto with just kyuubi = sharinegan sasuke without the 9 bijuu powers 
When they both get that boost they are equal


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## sabre320 (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Bijuu powers aren't naruto power
> They all gave him their power before the SO6P gave naruto his abilities
> Therefore sasuke evened the playing field by getting the bijuu powers as well
> 
> ...



Exhausted rsm naruto with kyuubi and senjutsu charge= rinnegan sasuke with 9 biju


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

If only Kishi agrees with you 
Sadly he doesn't 
senjutsu charge taking natural energy from the whole world is a huge boost though wouldn't you say 

Naruto 9 FRS Jutsu was only possible due to having 9 bijuu inside him 
Sasuke upgraded susanoo same thing 

People got their opinions am sure . However kishi wants them to be more or less equal so they are 
The rest is well insignificant


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## Crimson Flam3s (Feb 17, 2015)

Kakashi phases his whole body to the other dimension and leaves his eye behind to warp sauce head. Discussion over.

Sasuke can win no doubt about it, but kakashi has a really good chance as well, more than people credit him for.


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## ShinobisWill (Feb 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> (1)
> 
> You can see Susanoo diminishing right when he gets stabbed.




I think you missed the fact that Kaguya's bones crumble anything it pierces, and it was crumbling well before Kakashi used Kamui phase. Ala Obito's corpse of dust. 

And Sakura was still in the Susano'o until she jumped from it, it didn't diminish at all. Susano'o was active while Kakashi was phasing his body, and the bones continued piercing the Susano'o AS he was phasing through the bones.

The fact that Susano'o and Kamui phase were used together proves that the theory "you can't attack while phasing" is absurd. That rule only applies to the users physical body, not other techniques (or at least eye techniques), proven in Kaguya's battle. That's the only source needed which provided everything I've stated. 

Anyone who couldn't figure out that Obito couldn't "attack" and "phase" at the same time simply due to the fact that he can't touch anything with his body while phasing needs help. Nothing says "Both Kamui's can't be used at the same time", which was already disproven by the manga in a slightly different way (Obito using both eyes to warp to Kaguya's dimension), and the Susano'o shows that Kamui phase does not hinder Kakashi's other eye techniques (Kamui snipe, Susano'o) from being in effect and physical.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

Well feel free to read the OP
Also Kakashi never used both
I could just say sasuke uses his S/T Jutsu And has it swap places with kakashi head 

He hasn't done that though therefore he can't


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## ShinobisWill (Feb 17, 2015)

Too bad that the manga proved Susano'o and Kamui Phase can be used together at the same time, all but sinking your theory. 

That's more weight than Sasuke has for the argument of "he can swap with body parts"


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## sabre320 (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> If only Kishi agrees with you
> Sadly he doesn't
> senjutsu charge taking natural energy from the whole world is a huge boost though wouldn't you say
> 
> ...



why are u acting like the senjutsu chare is some external powerup:/ its senjutsu narutos own power like rinnegan for sasuke....

kishi showed that an exhausted naruto with just the kyuubi when got serious managed to balance out natural energy from a portion of the planet and used it to match sasuke who had all the biju ..:/ in that they were portrayed equal 

now do the opposite give naruto all nine bijus complete chakra and give him the senjutsu charge and tell me he is equal to sasuke


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

He is equal kishi the author intends them to be that's all you need to know sabre 

Naruto outdid sasuke against kaguya because naruto had 9 bijuu boosting him . If he did not he wouldn't not have done better than sasuke . 
Naruto was tired but sorry when you can super charge urself by absorbing natural energy 
How tired can you really be

@shinobiswill
Sasuke did swap a blade into juudara gut 
So he does that and kills Kakashi 
The end 
Has Kakashj used phasing and kamui snipe btw still waiting on that feat

At least we got the feat of sasuke being able to straigjt up run a blade into Kakashi gut thus killing him 

Considering the did so to juudara who is Kakashi superior


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