# Kaido vs Zoro and Sanji



## Great Potato (Jan 5, 2022)

I pit this duo against Rayleigh and he got shut out in the poll, so now I'm curious if the WSC will have better luck. 

Fight takes place on the Rooftop


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 5, 2022)

I didn't see the Rayleigh poll but the result should be the same. Rayleigh and Kaido are practically the same level.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MO (Jan 5, 2022)

kaido wins. He's been going through like 15 people here. A few clubbed hits and it's light outs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A Optimistic (Jan 5, 2022)

Zoro is a low top tier and Sanji is a YC1 at this point. I think they can win with very high difficulty.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 4 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 5, 2022)

A healthy Kaido high diffs. Neither Zoro nor Sanji can maintain their power ups for more than a few minutes or so which is far from being enough time to take down Kaido.


They are strong enough that Kaido would take them seriously from the start ergo without their power ups, they are getting fucked, worse so when they eventually run out of stamina.


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## oiety (Jan 5, 2022)

Current Zoro and Sanji with rest after their matches, correct? So CoC Infusion and DNA Enhancements? Given the way they treated King and Queen after proper utilization of their powerups it should be high diff, as imo King+Queen is a mid diff win for Kaido, so one person soundly superior to King and one person soundly superior to Queen should assuredly up the difficulty.


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## ShadoLord (Jan 5, 2022)

Kaido is no Primebeard.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Dunno (Jan 5, 2022)

Zoro alone is a toss-up. Sanji makes this a certain win for the duo.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 11


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## Empathy (Jan 5, 2022)

Kaidou with high difficulty. I don’t think Sanji adds all that much. A YC2 is close to nothing against Kaidou.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 6, 2022)

Kaido high diff .TB fkes anyone of them up , Zoro's great ap & Sanjis great speed is still not enough to take down Kaido yet .

Reactions: Like 1


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## convict (Jan 6, 2022)

2 Zoros definitely win but I don't think Sanji is significant enough help in this to push it to victory. Kaido in a very tough fight.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 5


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## BenMazino01 (Jan 6, 2022)

Dunno said:


> Zoro alone is a toss-up. Sanji makes this a certain win for the duo.


Are you serious ??

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

Zoro stalls kaido whilst sanji brews sake with poison in it.
Sanji uses parage shot to alter zoros face to look like odens, the psychological aspect allows the duo to win.
Zoro gives Sanji enma and he turns invis/goes high speed, Kaido can sense Enma but can’t see him so logically deduces odens ghost has come back to haunt him. This gives them the edge.
Sanji launches zoro who goes King of hell with the added speed he does kaido a nasty injury.
They have a few options

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 6, 2022)

Anyone that doesn't vote Kaido is a certified goofy goober

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Anyone that doesn't vote Kaido is a certified goofy goober


In a 1v1 I’d agree ‍

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Amol (Jan 6, 2022)

Kaido wins *obviously *.


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## Corax (Jan 6, 2022)

If he is fresh here  Kaido extreme. Zoro+Sanji>Luffy. Fresh Luffy is high diff for fresh Kaido as it seems.


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## ClannadFan (Jan 6, 2022)

Good fight, but like we'll see with Big Mom, 2 YC1's prove to be too much for the Yonkou.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 6, 2022)

ClannadFan said:


> Good fight, but like we'll see with Big Mom, 2 YC1's prove to be too much for the Yonkou.


Law & Kidd have not even beat BM and we dont even know yet how she will fall but we r still Limiting Law & Kidd to only YC1 . Law being relatively ok after TB is already enough to give him YC1+ imo , so let's just keep an open mind until the fight ends .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Anyone that doesn't vote Kaido is a certified goofy goober


How do Sanji and Zoro not beat someone Luffy can on his own?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ClannadFan (Jan 6, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Law & Kidd have not even beat BM and we dont even know yet how she will fall but we r still Limiting Law & Kidd to only YC1 . Law being relatively ok after TB is already enough to give him YC1+ imo , so let's just keep an open mind until the fight ends .


I'd agree that they are YC1+, but factoring in that they started off injured is enough for me to be able to confidently say when they beat Big Mom that 2 YC1>1 Top Tier

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> How do Sanji and Zoro not beat someone Luffy can on his own?


1. Stretching the definition of ‘on his own’
2. the same way other second and third strongest crew members often cant compete with their captains.
3. It’s the magic number.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

Perrin said:


> 1. Stretching the definition of ‘on his own’
> 2. the same way other second and third strongest crew members often cant compete with their captains.
> 3. It’s the magic number.


Luffy becomes stronger than everyone he defeats. That's a basic principle of this series. It's going to become very clear to you Kaido apologists that Luffy will be stronger than him when the fight concludes

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 6, 2022)

ClannadFan said:


> I'd agree that they are YC1+, but factoring in that they started off injured is enough for me to be able to confidently say when they beat Big Mom that 2 YC1>1 Top Tier


Everyone was fighting B4 this 2v1 , and who took what % damage , who use what % haki/stamina etc is up for debate . But , as I said & u agree Law & Kidd was already YC1+ coming into the fight . I think that's still not enough to take down BM, there will be another PU to take down the monster that is a  Yonkou . Same with Luffy vs Kaido .

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Luffy becomes stronger than everyone he defeats. That's a basic principle of this series. It's going to become very clear to you Kaido apologists that Luffy will be stronger than him when the fight concludes


Interesting. I was just going by current feats.
Do you think current zoro and sanji would beat hypothetical end of kaido fight luffy?


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## A Optimistic (Jan 6, 2022)

Lots of Zoro and Sanji underestimation in this thread.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Luffy becomes stronger than everyone he defeats. That's a basic principle of this series. It's going to become very clear to you Kaido apologists that Luffy will be stronger than him when the fight concludes


If Oda wanted to portray Luffy as stronger than Kaido post Wano, then pointing out that Kaido was already significantly weakened would be very counterproductive to that narrative.

Reactions: Agree 7


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## Kroczilla (Jan 6, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Lots of Zoro and Sanji underestimation in this thread.


Fixed

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Fixed


He just feels like a step behind the other two now with no emphasis on CoA or CoC.
He’ll alays be the best dressed tho.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 6, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Lots of Zoro and Sanji underestimation in this thread.


Kaido & BM is not down yet while Zoro & Sanji already showed their limit . So, may b after Kaido & BMs fall we will have clear idea that what it takes to take down a yonkou .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Kaido & BM is not down yet while Zoro & Sanji already showed their limit . So, may b after Kaido & BMs fall we will have clear idea that what it takes to take down a yonkou .


Whitebeard rolls in grave


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 6, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Whitebeard rolls in grave


Heart attack did more damage then akainu

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Heart attack did more damage then akainu


Nah, u can fix a heart attack. Ed had holes in him.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 6, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Kaido & BM is not down yet while Zoro & Sanji already showed their limit . So, may b after Kaido & BMs fall we will have clear idea that what it takes to take down a yonkou .


Fair point. Though tbh given the punishment they've taken so far, I don't see Zoro and Sanji having the stamina to last long enough to eventually get the win. Maybe if they were given more stamina for this match up.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClannadFan (Jan 6, 2022)

This is what happens with almost every Luffy fight, esspecially post time skip: He beats someone who started off stronger than him in a controversial way, for Doffy he needed help, with Katakuri stabbing himself, and now with Kaido being tired. He becomes arguably stronger than said character, depending what side of the fence you're on. Then in the next Arc he clearly passes them. There will always be hardcore fans of the bad guy that got powercrept, but the majority will understand that Luffy has moved on to bigger and badder enemies.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## A Optimistic (Jan 6, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Kaido & BM is not down yet while Zoro & Sanji already showed their limit . So, may b after Kaido & BMs fall we will have clear idea that what it takes to take down a yonkou .



I feel like knowing that Kidd and Law are going to defeat Big Mom is enough info in order to include that Zoro and Sanji are strong enough to defeat a Yonko together but maybe I'm just in the minority with that opinion.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 6, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Nah, u can fix a heart attack. Ed had holes in him.


U mean half the face ,right


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> U mean half the face ,right


Maybe it was metaphorical.
Ace died so WB lost his core,
Then when he failed his mission he lost face.
Metaphors are deadly.

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> I feel like knowing that Kidd and Law are going to defeat Big Mom is enough info in order to include that Zoro and Sanji are strong enough to defeat a Yonko together but maybe I'm just in the minority with that opinion.


Kid and Law aren’t reading from the same script as Zoro and Sanji though.
They have both shown a mad powerup but then (gasps in shonen rulebreaking) didn’t have a nap.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 6, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Kid and Law aren’t reading from the same script as Zoro and Sanji though.
> They have both shown a mad powerup but then (gasps in shonen rulebreaking) didn’t have a nap.


To be fair, Kid and Law at least have had some experience with their power ups, enough to understand perfectly the side effects unlike Zoro and Sanji who are using theirs for the first time.


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## Dellinger (Jan 6, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> I feel like knowing that Kidd and Law are going to defeat Big Mom is enough info in order to include that Zoro and Sanji are strong enough to defeat a Yonko together but maybe I'm just in the minority with that opinion.


Zoro and Sanji barely defeated King and Queen. Kaido is on another level.


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> To be fair, Kid and Law at least have had some experience with their power ups, enough to understand perfectly the side effects unlike Zoro and Sanji who are using theirs for the first time.


True. Maybe naptime was observed previously


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 6, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> I feel like knowing that Kidd and Law are going to defeat Big Mom is enough info in order to include that Zoro and Sanji are strong enough to defeat a Yonko together but maybe I'm just in the minority with that opinion.


Why Kidd and Laws crazy feat & achievement has anything to do with Zoro or Sanji ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Jan 6, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Why Kidd and Laws crazy feat & achievement has anything to do with Zoro or Sanji ?



Oh you're one of those people who think Kidd and Law are a lot stronger than Zoro and Sanji? Well nevermind then.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 6, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Oh you're one of those people who think Kidd and Law are a lot stronger than Zoro and Sanji? Well nevermind then.


No but I do think Kidd & Law individually slightly stronger than Zoro & obviously Sanji atm  . But I predict to take down BM this is not enough they would need a PU or show something extraordinary to take down BM


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## A Optimistic (Jan 6, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> No but I do think Kidd & Law individually slightly stronger than Zoro & obviously Sanji atm



I see. We can agree to disagree then.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> If Oda wanted to portray Luffy as stronger than Kaido post Wano, then pointing out that Kaido was already significantly weakened would be very counterproductive to that narrative.


Is Kaido more weakened than Luffy is? Yes or no.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Is Kaido more weakened than Luffy is? Yes or no.


Obviously Yes. Luffy has had a ship's worth of food. Food typically recovers Luffy's stamina and even heals his injuries at times. Kaido on the other hand has been running a gauntlet and can barely maintain his flame cloud which he previously used casually.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Duhul10 (Jan 6, 2022)

Kaido...of course...


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## A Optimistic (Jan 6, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido...of course...



how dare you rate me optimistic after I defended Kaido in another thread today

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Duhul10 (Jan 6, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> how dare you rate me optimistic after I defended Kaido in another thread today


But it's your name

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 10


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> how dare you rate me optimistic after I defended Kaido in another thread today


Lol @Duhul10 has been through the whole mill recently with all the kaido downplay that comes with the eventual end of his fight.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Duhul10 (Jan 6, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Lol @Duhul10 has been through the whole mill recently with all the kaido downplay that comes with the eventual end of his fight.


I had to fight a little, but I calmed the beasts, as usual


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## Perrin (Jan 6, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> I had to fight a little, but I calmed the beasts, as usual


Of course, at the end of the day, beasts are just creatures.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 6, 2022)

*Zoro and Sanji *with *extreme*-ish diff.

The Zoro and Sanji downplay is ridiculous.

Fresh Kaido beats Luffy with high-ish diff. and Zoro + Sanji could beat Luffy a bit easier than Kaido.



ClannadFan said:


> Good fight, but like we'll see with Big Mom, 2 YC1's prove to be too much for the Yonkou.


Depending on which tendency of YC1 ..

Zoro > Marco >/~ Sanji >/~ King 

I can see Marco and King still losing against solid top tier. 
But Zoro and Sanji are somewhat stronger higher YC1 duo so they might take most top tiers for now in a close matchup.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Van Basten (Jan 6, 2022)

Kaido.


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## Heart Over Blade (Jan 6, 2022)

Kaidou high diff or so. Upper YC1 + upper YC2 is nowhere near enough to beat Kaidou.

They both wear our in under a half hour and Kaidou clubs them both.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Luffy becomes stronger than everyone he defeats. That's a basic principle of this series. It's going to become very clear to you Kaido apologists that Luffy will be stronger than him when the fight concludes


Luffy was still weaker than moria and enel after they were defeated. Moria he had a giant temporary powerup, enel was a huge matchup disadvantage (which is what kaido has now, after fighting 15 different people)

Reactions: Like 1


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## trance (Jan 6, 2022)

kaido very high diff


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## Mylesime (Jan 6, 2022)

Good fight. Kaido high diff, maybe extreme diff.
But Kaido should still win, without PIS/CIS he would have already won this war (had litteraly the opportunity to slice the throats of the scabbards and Luffy  but decided not to do so.....), Oda has been nerfing him while wasting his strength/stamina in the process.


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## Eustathios (Jan 6, 2022)

Kid and Law vs Big Mom will let us know, just like a lot of other matchups here. If the duo just barely wins against Big Mom, Kaido takes it. I see them as slightly stronger than the Strawhats albeit still on the same general level.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Kaido takes it, next arc zoro and sanji take it


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## Dunno (Jan 6, 2022)

BenMazino01 said:


> Are you serious ??


Zoro just beat a guy who one-shot Big Mom. Given the nature of the one-shot, we of course need to cut her some slack. She could have probably given him a good fight if they were fighting on even ground. But then we also have the fact that King beat the guy she ran away from, and the vivre card statement that King is the strongest after Kaido, not Big Mom. This means that Zoro beat a guy who was between Kaido and Big Mom in strength. Now, depending on if King was closer to Kaido or Big Mom, Zoro could have surpassed Kaido as well, but that's hard to say, which is why it's a toss-up.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 5 | Tier Specialist 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 6, 2022)

Dunno said:


> Zoro just beat a guy who one-shot Big Mom. Given the nature of the one-shot, we of course need to cut her some slack. She could have probably given him a good fight if they were fighting on even ground. But then we also have the fact that King beat the guy she ran away from, and the vivre card statement that King is the strongest after Kaido, not Big Mom. This means that Zoro beat a guy who was between Kaido and Big Mom in strength. Now, depending on if King was closer to Kaido or Big Mom, Zoro could have surpassed Kaido as well, but that's hard to say, which is why it's a toss-up.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 7


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## Bash24 (Jan 6, 2022)

I don't see how they can win. Sanji can't deal damage to Kaido. Maybe he can offer distractions for Zoro to deal damage?


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Luffy was still weaker than moria and enel after they were defeated. Moria he had a giant temporary powerup, enel was a huge matchup disadvantage (which is what kaido has now, after fighting 15 different people)


luffy was stronger than moria and enel though.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Obviously Yes. Luffy has had a ship's worth of food. Food typically recovers Luffy's stamina and even heals his injuries at times. Kaido on the other hand has been running a gauntlet and can barely maintain his flame cloud which he previously used casually.


i'll bet my account that luffy will be conclusively stronger than kaido after this arc. you good?


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## Conxc (Jan 6, 2022)

Current Zoro alone is high end mid diff imo. Add Sanji and they push him to solid high diff tops. Luffy and Zoro win though.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> luffy was stronger than moria and enel though.


He wasnt at all, he only won against enel due to being immune to enels primary fighting style, he only won against moria due to getting a gigantic buff from morias powers

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> He wasnt at all, he only won against enel due to being immune to enels primary fighting style, he only won against moria due to getting a gigantic buff from morias powers


You can make the argument Luffy will need a Nightmare Luffy form to fight Kaido but you seem to be arguing that he will only be weakened and thus we can't say conclusively that Luffy is stronger.

Luffy was stronger than Enel when his devil fruit was countered.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> You can make the argument Luffy will need a Nightmare Luffy form to fight Kaido but you seem to be arguing that he will only be weakened and thus we can't say conclusively that Luffy is stronger.
> 
> Luffy was stronger than Enel when his devil fruit was countered.


No luffy wasnt stronger than Enel


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> No luffy wasnt stronger than Enel


How did he beat him?


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> How did he beat him?


Because enels hax fruit was completely useless against luffy. Enel would have destroyed much stronger people than luffy at that point. Literally >75% of enels power was just completely unusable against luffy. He was severely handicapped


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Because enels hax fruit was completely useless against luffy. Enel would have destroyed much stronger people than luffy at that point. Literally >75% of enels power was just completely unusable against luffy. He was severely handicapped


But Luffy did have that power, and he beat him because of it. He was stronger than Enel. If you want to give Luffy a super powerup like Nightmare mode then that's not really fair because that's not his own personal power. That's why I asked if you think he will have a Nightmare mode against Kaido, because other than that I've established that Luffy becomes stronger than every opponent he defeats. Kaido being stronger than Luffy at the end of their fight is out of place, it's uncommon. That's why I can't believe it.


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## Great Potato (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> But Luffy did have that power, and he beat him because of it. He was stronger than Enel. If you want to give Luffy a super powerup like Nightmare mode then that's not really fair because that's not his own personal power. That's why I asked if you think he will have a Nightmare mode against Kaido, because other than that I've established that Luffy becomes stronger than every opponent he defeats. Kaido being stronger than Luffy at the end of their fight is out of place, it's uncommon. That's why I can't believe it.



DarkRasengan is talking about power in the general scope and not just the specific match-up where Luffy hard-countered his ability. 

Enel would have scored a clean win against Zoro and Sanji at the time.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> DarkRasengan is talking about power in the general scope and not just the specific match-up where Luffy hard-countered his ability.
> 
> Enel would have scored a clean win against Zoro and Sanji at the time.


Yeah I know he is.

I'm just not sure how Enel's incredibly overpowered counter against any non-haki users is relevant to Luffy beating Kaido in a punching match.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> But Luffy did have that power, and he beat him because of it. He was stronger than Enel. If you want to give Luffy a super powerup like Nightmare mode then that's not really fair because that's not his own personal power. That's why I asked if you think he will have a Nightmare mode against Kaido, because other than that I've established that Luffy becomes stronger than every opponent he defeats. Kaido being stronger than Luffy at the end of their fight is out of place, it's uncommon. That's why I can't believe it.


Luffy had a powerup that he will never have again for 1 specific fight that was given by the enemy, so he wasnt stronger, he was much weaker and needed a powerup to defeat him. Luffy wasnt stronger than enel, i gave logical concrete reasons and you keep denying and not admitting youre wrong with nothing to back up what youre saying at all. Luffy wont have a nightmare mode against kaido, kaido just fought 15 people in a row and they whittled him down enough to be a more fair fight for luffy



Shunsuiju said:


> Yeah I know he is.
> 
> I'm just not sure how Enel's incredibly overpowered counter against any non-haki users is relevant to Luffy beating Kaido in a punching match.


Its relevent where you said luffy was stronger than everyone he defeated, which is flat out wrong and enel is perfect proof

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Its relevent where you said luffy was stronger than everyone he defeated, which is flat out wrong and enel is perfect proof


If Enel and Luffy fought 100 times Luffy would win _most times_. He's stronger.


DarkRasengan said:


> Luffy had a powerup that he will never have again for 1 specific fight that was given by the enemy, so he wasnt stronger, he was much weaker and needed a powerup to defeat him. Luffy wasnt stronger than enel, i gave logical concrete reasons and you keep denying and not admitting youre wrong with nothing to back up what youre saying at all. *Luffy wont have a nightmare mode against kaido, kaido just fought 15 people in a row and they whittled him down enough to be a more fair fight for luffy*


Do you have any proof that Kaido is "whittled down" or are you just pulling that out of your ass?


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

_Sanji and Zoro beating Luffy doesn't mean they beat Kaidou , what Logic is that?
Can Sanji and Zoro hurt Kaidou? 100% Sure
Can they beat him? No

Kaidou fought 9 Scabbards , he fought the R5 (with some help from BM) , fought Luffy again , defeated Luffy , fought Yamato and is now fighting Luffy again.
He High Diffs both , Zoro is more a threat here than Sanji and i'm not downplaying or overrating anyone.

Zoro is also inconsistent with AdvCoC , and I don't think Sanji has enough Haki/firepower to contend here , even with the DNA PU.
Now if Kaidou pulls awakening it becomes even more evident how far ahead a Top Tier is from YC's._

Reactions: Like 1


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> If Enel and Luffy fought 100 times Luffy would win _most times_. He's stronger.
> 
> Do you have any proof that Kaido is "whittled down" or are you just pulling that out of your ass?


No hes not do you understand matchups? If enies lobby zoro fought skypea luffy 100 times zoro would win every time. If enel fought enies lobby zoro 100 times, enel would win every time. Enel is stronger. Enies lobby zoro is much stronger than skypea luffy, and enel is even stronger than that.

My proof of kaido being whittles down is all of the panels he has taken damage from everyone, scabbards, killer, zoro, luffy, yamato, everyone did damage to him. Its not out of my ass its literally what has happened in the manga

I cant believe i have to resort to an analogy this dumb but i do, what wins in a confrontation a fire extinguisher or fire?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> No hes not do you understand matchups? If enies lobby zoro fought skypea luffy 100 times zoro would win every time. If enel fought enies lobby zoro 100 times, enel would win every time. Enel is stronger. Enies luffy *zoro is much stronger than skypea luffy, and enel is even stronger than that.*
> 
> My proof of kaido being whittles down is all of the panels he has taken damage from everyone, scabbards, killer, zoro, luffy, yamato, everyone did damage to him. Its not out of my ass its literally what has happened in the manga


Wrong , the thing with Enel is just Intagibility , sure he has good CoO , and with his fruit that CoO has better range and all that , but he still got tagged by a Luffy with a golden ball on is arm.
Zoro is Physically stronger than Enel , even Enies Lobby Sanji is , Enis Lobby Zoro with Basic CoA would fold Enel , has some potential but he is a glass cannon.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> Wrong , the thing with Enel is just Intagibility , sure he has good CoO , and with his fruit that CoO has better range and all that , but he still got tagged by a Luffy with a golden ball on is arm.
> Zoro is Physically stronger than Enel , even Enies Lobby Sanji is , Enis Lobby Zoro with Basic CoA would fold Enel , has some potential but he is a glass cannon.


Enies lobby zoro with asura is much stronger than skypea luffy, so im correct. Enel can defeat wayyyyy more people than skypea luffy, hence hes stronger. Enes lobby zoro has no CoA so thats a dumb argument

If you pit skypea luffy, enies lobby zoro, and enel against 1000 different fighters in the one piece world. Enel will defeat the most, enies lobby zoro will defeat the second most, skypea luffy defeats the least

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Enies lobby zoro with asura is much stronger than skypea luffy, so im correct. Enel can defeat wayyyyy more people than skypea luffy, hence hes stronger


But that's not the Point , the point is Luffy gets a free pass against Enel because he is made of Rubber , the likes of Wiper withstood Enel's attacks.
Enel isn't a monster like you're claiming , he is average and is lucky that he ate a logia.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> But that's not the Point , the point is Luffy gets a free pass against Enel because he is made of Rubber , the likes of Wiper withstood Enel's attacks.
> Enel isn't a monster like you're claiming , he is average and is lucky that he ate a logia.


Im not claiming enel is a monster, im claiming hes wayy stronger than skypea luffy which he is.


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Im not claiming enel is a monster, im claiming hes wayy stronger than skypea luffy


But he is not , Enel is actually Weak from durability to AP he was mediocre , like I said , he does have potential.
He is like a weaker version of Ace except with good CoO.
If Luffy didn't had the Gomu Gomu and Enel didn't have intagibilily , Luffy would still win.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> But he is not , Enel is actually Weak from durability to AP he was mediocre , like I said , he does have potential.
> He is like a weaker version of Ace except with good CoO.
> If Luffy didn't had the Gomu Gomu and Enel didn't have intagibilily , Luffy would still win.


But he is, enel from a total power point of view is much stronger than skypea luffy, hell lucci couldnt do anything to enel and lucci is >>> skypea luffy. Enel is just that much stronger because of his fruit. Enels intagibility makes him invincible to 80% of OPs fighters, luffys lightning immunity makes him almost invincible to enel and nami and thats it. Enel is just that much stronger and im baffled why i have to explain this to 1 person let alone 2

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> But he is, enel from a total power point of view is much stronger than skypea luffy, hell lucci couldnt do anything to enel and lucci is >>> skypea luffy. Enel is just that much stronger because of his fruit.


A fruit can only get you so far.
I understand your point and respect it , but I have a different opinion regarding Enel


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## Great Potato (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Do you have any proof that Kaido is "whittled down" or are you just pulling that out of your ass?



Why are you playing so obtuse?

We just spent dozens of chapters watching Kaido get jumped by several waves of fighters landing tons of hits that had him drawing blood or hollering in pain, and we even have direct statements that he's now struggling to carry the island because of how much he's been weakened. To pretend like you don't know what he's talking about is one of the most disingenuous statements I've seen here of late.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> A fruit can only get you so far.
> I understand your point and respect it , but I have a different opinion regarding Enel


Yes it can, but enels fruit literally makes him invincible to anyone without haki or luffy, and a ton of them are stronger than skypea luffy. Luffys fruit makes him resistance to bludgening damage, which only makes him invincible to people that dont have haki and only punch and kick, which is wayyyyt less people.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> My proof of kaido being whittles down is all of the panels he has taken damage from everyone, scabbards, killer, zoro, luffy, yamato, everyone did damage to him. Its not out of my ass its literally what has happened in the manga


Which of those attacks actually whittled down Kaido?

And no Luffy is not included he's the one fighting him.


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> Why are you playing so obtuse?
> 
> We just spent dozens of chapters watching Kaido get jumped by several waves of fighters landing tons of hits that had him drawing blood or hollering in pain, and we even have direct statements that he's now struggling to carry the island because of how much he's been weakened. To pretend like you don't know what he's talking about is one of the most disingenuous statements I've seen here of late.


Yamato even pointed out if I'm not wrong. 
That's why I am saying Sanji and Zoro can't beat Kaidou, the dude is still standing strong against Luffy for like the third time.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Which of those attacks actually whittled down Kaido?
> 
> And no Luffy is not included he's the one fighting him.


All of them, thats what whittling is, they all drew blood or showed damage, do i need to give you some time to go back and re-read the manga again?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Which of those attacks actually whittled down Kaido?
> 
> And no Luffy is not included he's the one fighting him.


Law dealt damage, Luffy dealt damage, the Scabbards although it didn't amount much dealt damage to him, Kidd, Zoro even scarred him and Killer also. 

Yamato stated he was getting weakened, Kaidou is far from fresh.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> All of them, thats what whittling is, they all drew blood or showed damage


What I'm saying is that none of those attacks did any significant damage. Kiku can draw blood from Kaido, that doesn't mean he lost any power.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> Law dealt damage, Luffy dealt damage, the Scabbards although it didn't amount much dealt damage to him, Kidd, Zoro even scarred him and Killer also.
> 
> *Yamato stated he was getting weakened, Kaidou is far from fresh.*


Can you give me that quote?


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> What I'm saying is that none of those attacks did any significant damage. Kiku can draw blood from Kaido, that doesn't mean he lost any power.


They add up, thats what whittling is, the 40 attacks have been weakening him which was even stated in the manga. The manga as has been stated before said kaido is being worn down. Yamato said it with the clouds holding onigashima.

We even had the exact same theme.in the sanji queen fight, queen looked like he was fine and sanji said all of his attacks were taking a toll on queen, and they were.


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> What I'm saying is that none of those attacks did any significant damage. Kiku can draw blood from Kaido, that doesn't mean he lost any power.


It's not the blood that made him lose power, it's the damage he let build up, the accumulation of attacks that he got hit by started to get him tired, that and the fact that he as currently a island in the air also helps on his current state. 
His own daughter stated that.



Shunsuiju said:


> Can you give me that quote?


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

I get that his powers are weakening. He's been holding up Onigashima for a long ass time.

But you guys are acting like he's walking on one limb. There is absolutely no evidence that Kaido has been weakened to the point that Luffy's victory over him would be in question


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I get that his powers are weakening. He's been holding up Onigashima for a long ass time.
> 
> But you guys are acting like he's walking on one limb. There is absolutely no evidence that Kaido has been weakened to the point that Luffy's victory over him would be in question


We never said one limb, we said getting worn down. There is evidence because the author said it and the panel has been posted. You just cant admit when your wrong even if it's right in front of you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I get that his powers are weakening. He's been holding up Onigashima for a long ass time.
> 
> But you guys are acting like he's walking on one limb. There is absolutely no evidence that Kaido has been weakened to the point that Luffy's victory over him would be in question


From my point of view, headcannon or not, Kaidou is at 30%.
 And I didn't say Luffy's victory is questionable.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> We never said one limb, we said getting worn down. There is evidence because the author said it and the panel has been posted. You just cant admit when your wrong even if it's right in front of you.


Kaido's ability to hold up Onigashima is weakening. It didn't say he's at half power or anything drastic.


Gokou08 said:


> From my point of view, headcannon or not, Kaidou is at 30%.
> *And I didn't say Luffy's victory is questionable.*


That's exactly what you're saying.

If Kaido's at 30% then Luffy's victory would mean nothing. He just beat him because of luck and chance. Which completely contradicts his intention to take Kaido on himself and beat him fair and square which he's said many times. Yamato may as well stay and help him.


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## Gokou08 (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Kaido's ability to hold up Onigashima is . It didn't say he's at half power or anything drastic.
> 
> That's exactly what you're saying.
> 
> *If Kaido's at 30% then Luffy's victory would mean nothing. He just beat him because of luck and chance. Which completely contradicts his intention to take Kaido on himself and beat him fair and square which he's said many times.*


But that legit didn't happen, it won't be fair and square since Luffy lost 2 times and was resting and eating, and if it wasn't for the submarine catching him he would be death at the bottom of the sea. 

Luffy vs Kaidou was anything but a fair fight. 
Luffy would never beat Kaidou in a fair fight in this arc as he is currently. 

While Luffy was resting and eating Kaidou was still fighting, how is it fair?


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Kaido's ability to hold up Onigashima is weakening. It didn't say he's at half power or anything drastic.
> 
> That's exactly what you're saying.
> 
> If Kaido's at 30% then Luffy's victory would mean nothing. He just beat him because of luck and chance. Which completely contradicts his intention to take Kaido on himself and beat him fair and square which he's said many times. Yamato may as well stay and help him.


Luffys victory means wano is free and everyone from wano is safe and one of the yonkou is out of comission, what do you mean it means nothing?

He also beat enel because of luck and chance, he was lucky he fought a guy who he was pretty much totally immune to all his damage.

He also beat moria because of luck and chance, luffy got lucky that he received a temporary powerup with the enemies powers, without it he wouldnt have won.

Have you read one piece?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> But that legit didn't happen, it won't be fair and square since Luffy lost 2 times and was resting and eating, and if it wasn't for the submarine catching him he would be death at the bottom of the sea.
> 
> Luffy vs Kaidou was anything but a fair fight.
> Luffy would never beat Kaidou in a fair fight in this arc as he is currently.
> ...





DarkRasengan said:


> Luffys victory means wano is free and everyone from wano is safe and one of the yonkou is out of comission, what do you mean it means nothing?
> 
> He also beat enel because of luck and chance, he was lucky he fought a guy who he was pretty much totally immune to all his damage.
> 
> ...


How do you explain this?


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> How do you explain this?


He wants to fight kaido one on one to get stronger, because he needs to get stronger to become pirate king. Hell he already got significant powerups during the battle, he'll probably get another.

That's how this panel is explained.

Are you gonna keep posting irrelevant points that have easy explanations to drag us further away from the original argument so you can hope we forget about it or are you gonna finally admit youre wrong and we can all move on with our lives.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> He wants to fight kaido one on one to get stronger, because he needs to get stronger to become pirate king. Hell he already got significant powerups during the battle, he'll probably get another.
> 
> That's how this panel is explained.


You don't think Luffy wants to get stronger than Kaido by defeating him in a fair fight? That's not at all implied?


DarkRasengan said:


> Are you gonna keep posting irrelevant points that have easy explanations to drag us further away from the original argument so you can hope we forget about it or are you gonna finally admit youre wrong and we can all move on with our lives.


What am I wrong about?


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 6, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> You don't think Luffy wants to get stronger than Kaido by defeating him in a fair fight? That's not at all implied?
> 
> What am I wrong about?


He wants to get stronger, it's long passed being a fair fight. You're wrong about luffy being stronger than enel during skypie, wrong about luffy being stronger than Moria when they fought. Wrong about luffy is going to be stronger than kaido after this fight. Wrong about pretty much everything you said. I feel like I should take you through from chapter 1 till the current chapter and explain every panel to you individually and maybe you'll understand the manga.

If you want to know what you're wrong about, read all of your posts and all of my posts again. But I'm guessing you've erased that from your memory already.

Now you got me thinking maybe that's the problem, you read something and forget about it immediatly after, if that's the case I'm sorry for my comments.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> He wants to get stronger, it's long passed being a fair fight.


I'll ask one more time. Does he want to become stronger than Kaido?



I feel the need at this point to summarize both of our arguments because you keep making claims that I'm back tracking or that I've been proven to be wrong.

-I started off by claiming that every opponent Luffy faces and defeats is weaker than him. The only two cases in the entire series this was put into question was two side villains in Enel and Moria where Luffy needed to use arguably unfair means to defeat them. I'm willing to walk back Moria as I had forgotten parts of the fight and _maybe _Enel though that seems to be more of a semantical argument rather than it being one way or another. My original premise that Luffy becomes stronger than all of his opponents is changed to all but one or two. Still, assuming that Kaido will remain stronger than Luffy after their fight is on the side of very unlikely based on Luffy's track record.

-From my perspective, you're argument is that since Kaido's been attacked so many times by people other than Luffy, and that his power was stated to be "weakening" then Luffy's defeat will no longer be confirmation that he's stronger.

My only response to this is by asking for any evidence that Kaido is now significantly weaker than before. You have a single panel referencing Kaido's decreasing power, which does not tell us anything about exactly how much power he has lost.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 6, 2022)

I also find it funny that you think I need to reread One Piece when you're trying to refute one of the most basic and understood storytelling styles of the series. Luffy goes to an island, someone hurts his friends, he says he's going to beat them up, and then beats them up and saves his friends. Kaido's entire purpose in the story is to act as an all-powerful milestone Luffy must surpass. You think Kaido has the title of World's Strongest because it sounds cool? Obviously that's going to come into play when Luffy finally overcomes the invincible creature when no one else could. Almost every chapter of the raid is emphasizing Kaido's unmatched strength and you think that's not going to be contested? There's a serious lack of understanding simple storytelling here on your part, not mine.


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## Corax (Jan 7, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Luffy had a powerup that he will never have again for 1 specific fight that was given by the enemy, so he wasnt stronger, he was much weaker and needed a powerup to defeat him. Luffy wasnt stronger than enel, i gave logical concrete reasons and you keep denying and not admitting youre wrong with nothing to back up what youre saying at all. Luffy wont have a nightmare mode against kaido, kaido just fought 15 people in a row and they whittled him down enough to be a more fair fight for luffy


Luffy just hard countered Enel. According to Oda as a pirate Enel pre TS would've been a 500 million pirate. Unprecedented pre TS bounty, later surpassed only by Ace in MF arc. Obviously Luffy as a pirate was weaker,but hard countered Enel's skillset.


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## Purple Pheasant (Jan 7, 2022)

Fresh Kaido takes this But Zoro and Sanji could beat the Kaido that Luffy is fighting as of right now.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 7, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I also find it funny that you think I need to reread One Piece when you're trying to refute one of the most basic and understood storytelling styles of the series. Luffy goes to an island, someone hurts his friends, he says he's going to beat them up, and then beats them up and saves his friends. Kaido's entire purpose in the story is to act as an all-powerful milestone Luffy must surpass. You think Kaido has the title of World's Strongest because it sounds cool? Obviously that's going to come into play when Luffy finally overcomes the invincible creature when no one else could. Almost every chapter of the raid is emphasizing Kaido's unmatched strength and you think that's not going to be contested? There's a serious lack of understanding simple storytelling here on your part, not mine.


I find it funny that you dont understand that i answered all of this already, luffy will beat kaido up, its a weakened kaido but he will still be beaten. And yes luffy wants to be stronger than kaido, but that wont happen this arc because kaido is weakened. I literally already refuted all of this but as weve come to the conclusion you dont read, or if you do, you forget it immediatly afterwords
Its like arguing with a goldfish


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## Intus Legere (Jan 7, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Luffy becomes stronger than everyone he defeats.



I don't think Luffy was stronger than Enel after defeating him, until gears came up.

That said, I don't disagree with your reasoning. This battle shouldn't be one sided at all, going by what we saw on this arc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Jan 7, 2022)

8 fan boys circle jerking each other.
2 Zoros and 2 Sanjis still wouldn’t beat Kaidou.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Gokou08 (Jan 7, 2022)

Beast said:


> 8 fan boys circle jerking each other.
> 2 Zoros and 2 Sanjis still wouldn’t beat Kaidou.


Now this is a stretch, 2 Zoros and 2 Sanji's definitely beat Kaidou.


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## Beast (Jan 7, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> Now this is a stretch, 2 Zoros and 2 Sanji's definitely beat Kaidou.


No they fucking don’t.

2 Zoros and 2 Sanjis get slapped by the original RT5.
RT5>~ Kaidou> 2 Sanji and Zoros


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## Gokou08 (Jan 7, 2022)

Beast said:


> No they fucking don’t.
> 
> 2 Zoros and 2 Sanjis get slapped by the original RT5.
> RT5>~ Kaidou> 2 Sanji and Zoros


A>B>C logic like this doesn't work, you're telling me Kaidou can handle 2 Zoros with AdvCoC and 2 Sanji's like nothing? 

Kaidou is not beating 2 Zoro's and 2 Sanji's after they reached their own PU's, I agree Kaidou beating Zoro and Sanji, but this is too much. 
Luffy isn't so above in power regarding Sanji and Zoro, much less 2 of each.


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## Beast (Jan 7, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> A>B>C logic like this doesn't work, you're telling me Kaidou can handle 2 Zoros with AdvCoC and 2 Sanji's like nothing?
> 
> Kaidou is not beating 2 Zoro's and 2 Sanji's after they reached their own PU's, I agree Kaidou beating Zoro and Sanji, but this is too much.
> Luffy isn't so above in power regarding Sanji and Zoro, much less 2 of each.


Yes.

4 Zoros now we might be talking but even then, given Kaidou is not done and still standing in his two feet, it’s more so Zoro and Sanji that do not have enough to take him down.
you might have gotten lost somewhere in the last couples weeks and months of the fake Zoro wank but Kaidous been eating CoC coated attacks from Luffy all day long, from Yamato and Zoro himself. So, no I don’t think 2 Zoros is gonna be enough as Sanji can only stall and do superficial damage and I’m not to sure how much Heat type attacks will hurt Kaidou.
and this is all while Kaidou isn’t holding up an island?


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## Gokou08 (Jan 7, 2022)

Beast said:


> Yes.
> 
> 4 Zoros now we might be talking but even then, given Kaidou is not done and still standing in his two feet, it’s more so Zoro and Sanji that do not have enough to take him down.
> you might have gotten lost somewhere in the last couples weeks and months of the fake Zoro wank but Kaidous been eating CoC coated attacks from Luffy all day long, from Yamato and Zoro himself. So, no I don’t think 2 Zoros is gonna be enough as Sanji can only stall and do superficial damage and I’m not to sure how much Heat type attacks will hurt Kaidou.


4 Zoros???

First of all I'm not wanking Zoro, I can't relate much to the character here because of some wank he gets, what I'm doing is stating the facts, someone like Yamato who is comparable to Zoro was holding down fairly well against Kaidou , and yes I do know Kaidou was a bit Weakened, but 4 Zoros would trash Kaidou, you think he gets a free pass?
Zoro is not stronger than Luffy, but he is more lethal, and 4 Zoros would absolutely destroy any Yonkou besides maybe and its a big maybe, all the legends.

Sanji isn't weak like you are claiming, you are either underestimating Zoro and Sanji or overrating Kaidou.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Beast (Jan 7, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> 4 Zoros???
> 
> First of all I'm not wanking Zoro, I can't relate much to the character here because of some wank he gets, what I'm doing is stating the facts, someone like Yamato who is comparable to Zoro was holding down fairly well against Kaidou , and yes I do know Kaidou was a bit Weakened, but 4 Zoros would trash Kaidou, you think he gets a free pass?
> Zoro is not stronger than Luffy, but he is more lethal, and 4 Zoros would absolutely destroy any Yonkou besides maybe and its a big maybe, all the legends.
> ...


Clearly I’m just straight up hating on Zoro.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Lmao (Jan 7, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Current Zoro alone is high end mid diff imo. Add Sanji and they push him to solid high diff tops. Luffy and Zoro win though.


Your most reasonable Zoro take I've seen in the last 5 months I've been in the OL.

This is progress! I'm proud of you

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Conxc (Jan 7, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Your most reasonable Zoro take I've seen in the last 5 months I've been in the OL.
> 
> This is progress! I'm proud of you


I think ZKK is most reasonable, but to each their own...

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Freechoice (Jan 7, 2022)

What a surprise the people voting Zoro and Sanji are Zoro wankers

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mercurial (Jan 7, 2022)

What is exactly Sanji doing here?

Sanji at best hits as hard as Pre Udon Rufy. Which did literally nothing to Kaido.

Zoro needs a partner that surpasses that level, like Yamato, Kidd or Law, otherwise Kaido wins this sure.

Oh before the crying rants from the widows. No one says that Sanji is weak. Hell, being almost as strong as Pre Udon Rufy is an enormous certificate or strength. Enormous. Just, even that level can't do much here, something even greater it's needed.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 7, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> What is exactly Sanji doing here?
> 
> Sanji at best hits as hard as Pre Udon Rufy. Which did literally nothing to Kaido.
> 
> ...


Sanji has the speed and durability to engage kaido and gives zoro openings to do the heavy damage, sanji is the perfect partner(around zoros level) for a fight like this. Zoro brings the kill moves, sanji engages and gives him openings

The problem is they are both a level too low to defeat kaido with combined forces, zoro has the AP but not the speed or defense, sanji has the speed and defense but not the AP


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## Perrin (Jan 7, 2022)

Kaido feels like the Cell of one piece.
Doesn’t matter how many fighters come at him or what their collective strength is, until one dude has a finisher stronger than kaidos finisher the guy aint going down.


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## Dunno (Jan 7, 2022)

Freechoice said:


> What a surprise the people voting Zoro and Sanji are Zoro wankers


Wanking Zoro is impossible. The only thing we can hope to do is downplay him to a lesser extent.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Optimistic 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 7, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> I find it funny that you dont understand that i answered all of this already, luffy will beat kaido up, its a weakened kaido but he will still be beaten. And yes luffy wants to be stronger than kaido, but that wont happen this arc because* kaido is weakened. *I literally already refuted all of this but as weve come to the conclusion you dont read, or if you do, you forget it immediatly afterwords
> Its like arguing with a goldfish


This line is so important.

How weakened? It was never stated how much Kaido's physical power had been weakened, only that it was weakening.

A majority of the evidence is pointing to Luffy being stronger than Kaido not the other way around.


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## Mihawk (Jan 7, 2022)

Not sure where this Zoro hype is coming from. He and Sanji lived up to the level they were supposed to reach atm. Nothing more, nothing less.

Kaido still wastes them...


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 7, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Not sure where this Zoro hype is coming from. He and Sanji lived up to the level they were supposed to reach atm. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> Kaido still wastes them...


What about current duracell Kaido?


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## Mihawk (Jan 7, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> What about current duracell Kaido?


Who’s that


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 7, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Who’s that


Kaido lite, basically

The guy Luffy is facing right now


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## Mihawk (Jan 7, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Kaido lite, basically
> 
> The guy Luffy is facing right now


So Kaido lite < admirals?


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 7, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> So Kaido lite < admirals?


Don't ask me


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## Eustathios (Jan 7, 2022)

Gauntlets are not the same as getting jumped. People are somehow concluding that since Kaido fought so many characters, he can take them on all at once. If WB is anything to go by, then Kaido is still very much good to go.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bil02 (Jan 7, 2022)

Is Kaido fresh? If yes he takes it very high diff.
I'm a believer of Luffy needing another crazy powerup to defeat Kaido so current Zoro and Sanji can't win this imo.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 7, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Is Kaido fresh? If yes he takes it very high diff.
> I'm a believer of Luffy needing another crazy powerup to defeat Kaido so current Zoro and Sanji can't win this imo.


Enma/Raid Suit/Gear 5 is the equivalent of Ashura/DJ/G2, they already had their powerups, Luffy needs to catch up

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Jan 8, 2022)

Lopsided results in Kaidou's favor so far, Even more so if he has something like Awakening in his pocket. If current Luffy and Kaidou's casual attacks can split the sky,  imagine how strong Kaidou's ultimate is going to be. Hakai was just two Yonkous using their non-aCoC imbued attacks, not their ultimates.


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 8, 2022)

That votings are weird.  I'm sure this fight would be close and not in favor of Kaido. I can't imagine them not being able to beat Luffy with high (low) diff. at most. And Luffy is pushing Kaido definitely closer to high (_high_) diff. at least. 

If they can't beat Kaido, then Fresh Luffy get's mid diffed by Fresh Kaido at worst. Is that what you think?

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 8, 2022)

Captain Altintop said:


> That votings are weird.  I'm sure this fight would be close and not in favor of Kaido. I can't imagine them not being able to beat Luffy with high (low) diff. at most. And Luffy is pushing Kaido definitely closer to high (_high_) diff. at least.
> 
> If they can't beat Kaido, then Fresh Luffy get's mid diffed by Fresh Kaido at worst. Is that what you think?


Luffy is just that much stronger than both of them, plus kaido has his crazy durability thats helps deal with multiple opponents

Zoro and sanji vs luffy can go either way.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 5


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## Beast (Jan 8, 2022)

Dunno said:


> Wanking Zoro is impossible. The only thing we can hope to do is downplay him to a lesser extent.


Just because you use your left doesn’t mean you arent jerking shit all the same.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Jan 8, 2022)

Results are what they are. A few people's opinions about what they think the gap  should be between Kaidou and Luffy's subordinates isn't going to sway anyone who isn't already swayed.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 8, 2022)

Luffy vs Sanji and Zoro doesn’t go either way, it’s a completely one-sided massacre 



Heart Over Blade said:


> Lopsided results in Kaidou's favor so far, Even more so if he has something like Awakening in his pocket. If current Luffy and Kaidou's casual attacks can split the sky,  imagine how strong Kaidou's ultimate is going to be. Hakai was just two Yonkous using their non-aCoC imbued attacks, not their ultimates.


Zoro could easily match Kaido’s attacks with Emma if Luffy’s doing it in base

Reactions: Agree 5


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 8, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Zoro could easily match Kaido’s attacks with Emma if Luffy’s doing it in base


base luffy splits sky now so . . . .no .


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 8, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> base luffy splits sky now so . . . .no .


I mean... Zoro has adCoC too.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 8, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I mean... Zoro has adCoC too.


so does Yamato , so does Roger . not everyones advCoC r on same lvl .


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 8, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> so does Yamato , so does Roger . not everyones advCoC r on same lvl .


And those two characters could fight Kaido.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 8, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> And those two characters could fight Kaido.


may b u did not understand my reply . the point for bringing up Yamato & Rogars advCoC to prove that just because Zoro has advCoC does not mean its on Luffys lvl . So, u claming Zoro can EASILY match Kaidos attack just because base Luffy is doing it , does not make sense .


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 8, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> may b u did not understand my reply . the point for bringing up Yamato & Rogars advCoC to prove that just because Zoro has advCoC does not mean its on Luffys lvl . So, u claming Zoro can EASILY match Kaidos attack just because base Luffy is doing it , does not make sense .


I didn't say it's on Luffy's level. I don't know if he could split the sky yet, but Enma should make up for that gap if Luffy's doing these things in his weakest form.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jan 8, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I didn't say it's on Luffy's level. I don't know if he could split the sky yet, but Enma should make up for that gap if Luffy's doing these things in his weakest form.


Thats the thing tho , in this supposed weakest form he splits the sky ( feat only Yonkou & Yonkou + did ) . So, i dont this its that weak but we will see more after Luffy vs Kaido ends .
As for Zoro matching kaidos attack , i can see Zoro fight like Yamato did or do a bit better than yamato but i dont think Zoro can EASILY match Kaidos attack just yet .


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 8, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Thats the thing tho , in this supposed weakest form he splits the sky ( feat only Yonkou & Yonkou + did ) . So, i dont this its that weak but we will see more after Luffy vs Kaido ends .
> As for Zoro matching kaidos attack , i can see Zoro fight like Yamato did or do a bit better than yamato but i dont think Zoro can EASILY match Kaidos attack just yet .


Ok I agree.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Corax (Jan 8, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Thats the thing tho , in this supposed weakest form he splits the sky ( feat only Yonkou & Yonkou + did ) . So, i dont this its that weak but we will see more after Luffy vs Kaido ends .
> As for Zoro matching kaidos attack , i can see Zoro fight like Yamato did or do a bit better than yamato but i dont think Zoro can EASILY match Kaidos attack just yet .


Zoro for sure has haki stronger than Yamato. His ambitions are far greater. Luffy and Zoro have similar ambitions (Luffy's are greater though).


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 8, 2022)

Corax said:


> Zoro for sure has haki stronger than Yamato. His ambitions are far greater. Luffy and Zoro have similar ambitions (Luffy's are greater though).


So the guy who just unlocked conquerers haki has stronger haki than the person who was clashing equally with kaido with it?


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## Corax (Jan 8, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> So the guy who just unlocked conquerers haki has stronger haki than the person who was clashing equally with kaido with it?


It is ambition related. Luffy unlocked it 1 hour ago and can split skies and trade blows evenly with Kaido who has had it for years. Very likely it is capped,since Yamato has had it for 20 years but still can't do this.


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 8, 2022)

Corax said:


> It is ambition related. Luffy unlocked it 1 hour ago and can split skies and trade blows evenly with Kaido who has had it for years. Very likely it is capped,since Yamato has had it for 20 years but still can't do this.


Thats certainly possible, i was going to chalk it up to luffy being a battle genius who figured out how to use futuresight mid battle, but zoro did something similar with breath of all things

I guess wanting to have a family is a greater ambition than freeing wano, since whitebeard could do it


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 8, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Luffy is just that much stronger than both of them, plus kaido has his crazy durability thats helps deal with multiple opponents
> 
> Zoro and sanji vs luffy can go either way.



Monster Trio have been and will be still remaining as we know since BoS. 

Look at my signature. Luffy get's not "demolished" but still overwhelmed with mid-high diff.

I accept your opinion since by feats alone, it really looks like that Luffy is somewhat above them. But feats can mislead ...

Crocodile feat was to block Mihawk's slash, but by portrayal and in reality, he is neg diff material for any top tier.


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## Magentabeard (Jan 8, 2022)

They beat Luffy but not Kaido (Luffy is not equal to Kaido who is sandbagging and very nerfed)


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## DarkRasengan (Jan 8, 2022)

Captain Altintop said:


> Monster Trio have been and will be still remaining as we know since BoS.
> 
> Look at my signature. Luffy get's not "demolished" but still overwhelmed with mid-high diff.
> 
> ...


Yeah im just goin by feats, portrayal zoro and sanji were always just slightly behind luffy individually. Just now luffy has g4, futuresight, better ACoC on them. I agree with your sig the whole story up until dressrosa, which is where luffy started pulling ahead by feats, though I hope it's the same as the rest of the story.
Zoro wont be able to keep up or handle many hits, sanji wont be able to do enough damage


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## Heart Over Blade (Jan 8, 2022)

Corax said:


> Luffy unlocked it 1 hour ago and can split skies and trade blows evenly with Kaido who has had it for years. Very likely it is capped,since Yamato has had it for 20 years but still can't do this.


Luffy specializes in CoC and had Conqueror's beyond his own tier to begin with. That's why his CoC has been able to clash evenly with opponents in higher tiers like Katakuri and Kaidou.  His CoC feats prove it. Also we know CoC potency isn't static. It grows with the character. Luffy couldn't knock out 50k fishmen when he first awakened it.


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## Beast (Jan 9, 2022)

Just like at the start of the arc, I wouldn’t even bet against Luffy beating these two nevermind Kaidou with the way things are going.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eustathios (Jan 9, 2022)

Corax said:


> Zoro for sure has haki stronger than Yamato. His ambitions are far greater. Luffy and Zoro have similar ambitions (*Luffy's are greater though*).


Equal I think. Unlike other crews where the subordinate bends to the captain's will, Luffy and Zoro are both chasing their dreams together and Zoro wouldn't hesitate to take out Luffy if he got in the way during the beginning of their journey. They are both conquerors/kings.


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 9, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Equal I think. Unlike other crews where the subordinate bends to the captain's will, Luffy and Zoro are both chasing their dreams together and Zoro wouldn't hesitate to take out Luffy if he got in the way during the beginning of their journey. They are both conquerors/kings.


Luffy's goals are grander. Becoming the Pirate King is above becoming the World's Strongest Swordsman, like Mihawk said. But Zoro isn't far off.


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## Eustathios (Jan 9, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Luffy's goals are grander. Becoming the Pirate King is above becoming the World's Strongest Swordsman, like Mihawk said. But Zoro isn't far off.


Greater goal, but similar willpower. Becoming the PK was a far more glorious goal than just raising a family, yet Roger and WB were equal at the end of the day. It isn't all about that sometimes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fel1x (Jan 9, 2022)

lol this thread is something else
Kaido wins low-mid diff


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## Fel1x (Jan 9, 2022)

Dunno said:


> Zoro just beat a guy who one-shot Big Mom. Given the nature of the one-shot, we of course need to cut her some slack. She could have probably given him a good fight if they were fighting on even ground. But then we also have the fact that King beat the guy she ran away from, and the vivre card statement that King is the strongest after Kaido, not Big Mom. This means that Zoro beat a guy who was between Kaido and Big Mom in strength. Now, depending on if King was closer to Kaido or Big Mom, Zoro could have surpassed Kaido as well, but that's hard to say, which is why it's a toss-up.


Can Zoro solo C3?


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