# Prime Garp vs Old Whitebeard



## DanElectro (Apr 12, 2015)

Location: Dressrosa
Knowledge: Full
Distance: 1000m

Both bloodlusted. Whitebeard has no heart attacks and is not sick.

I think Garp takes it, what do you guys think? I heard some say WB is still stronger...


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## Bernkastel (Apr 12, 2015)

Garp wins.Not sure about the difficulty but it will be something between very high and extreme.
Prime Garp is very close to Roger/Prime WB.


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## Beckman (Apr 12, 2015)

I'd say prime Garp is stronger, but WB would win.

If Garp played it smart, stalled and waited for WB to tire he would eventually outlast him, but that's not Garps style. Garp would go straight in and trade punches and then WBs superior attack power would give him the win.


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## Amol (Apr 12, 2015)

Prime Garp was extremely close to Primebeard's level .
He definitely wins against Old WB.
If he looses to Old WB then it would just mean that Prime Garp was as strong as MF Akainu which is bullshit.
Garp wins with some variation of High diff .


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## Sauce (Apr 12, 2015)

Old Whitebeard by a mile. Old Whitebeard with half of his blown off and suffering countless injuries still took on Warlords and Admirals.

Na, Whitebeard got it.

Edit: Prime Garp.


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## Canute87 (Apr 12, 2015)

Garp wanking at it's finest.


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## StrawHat4Life (Apr 12, 2015)

So this isn't an illness ridden WB prone to having his body betray him  at any moment? Then he obviously takes it. I always felt that it was his sickness that handicapped him much more so than age. Old WB still retains his offensive ability and his quake powers are a good counter for a purely physical brawler like Garp, who likely still makes it a close fight though. WB wins with extreme difficulty.


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## Etherborn (Apr 12, 2015)

Prime Garp stated he was a mountain buster with punches alone. He isn't losing to Whitebeard because of a lack of offensive power. He should logically win against old Whitebeard very high difficulty.


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## Beckman (Apr 12, 2015)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Prime Garp stated he was a mountain buster with punches alone. He isn't losing to Whitebeard because of a lack of offensive power. He should logically win against old Whitebeard very high difficulty.


It's not that he lacks offensive power, it's just inferior to WBs. Their durability and endurance should be fairly similair, so if it boils down to a straight punching contest (which I think it will) Garp should lose.


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## Etherborn (Apr 12, 2015)

Beckman said:


> It's not that he lacks offensive power, it's just inferior to WBs. Their durability and endurance should be fairly similair, so if it boils down to a straight punching contest (which I think it will) Garp should lose.



Why would he lose? Garp in his prime should definitely have superior armaments and observation haki, and he's most likely faster as well. His physical strength feats are better than Whitebeard's even in his old age, which makes sense because Whitebeard relies on his devil fruit for most of his DC whereas Garp doesn't. Prime Whitebeard is a different story, but Garp isn't losing to old Whitebeard just because the latter has a devil fruit that amplifies his attacks. Garp won't win by much, but he should still win with Whitebeard's decline in strength. 

Edit: I see what you mean though. If they both stood in one place and threw punches at each other Garp would most likely drop first, but no one actually does that in a real fight.


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## Canute87 (Apr 12, 2015)

Beckman said:


> It's not that he lacks offensive power, it's just inferior to WBs. Their durability and endurance should be fairly similair, so if it boils down to a straight punching contest (which I think it will) Garp should lose.



The most whitebeard did was his powers though was split marineford.

Garp according to him brought the mountains to dust.  That seems rather powerful.


Pretty sure prime Garp who's primary focus was haki and his physical strength should more than stand up the the force when akainu was blocking WB quake clash with essentially his DF foot and Kizaru held down his bisento as well.

Then there's the whole speed factor, endurance and will power to which  Prime Garp should have over whitebeard.   The only problem really is WB's damage soak  but if a clear shot to akainu's head didn't take him out by extension it's not reaching Garp under normal circumstances.


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## StrawHat4Life (Apr 12, 2015)

Why would prime Garp have superior haki? This WB has no illness to sap him of his strength. Also I see no reason why the same quake smash that nearly put Akainu out of commission wouldn't have comparable results against Garp.


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## Canute87 (Apr 12, 2015)

StrawHat4Life said:


> Why would prime Garp have superior haki? This WB has no illness to sap him of his strength.



Because whitebeard is old.

I believe age has an effective on haki, don't you?

Plus there's also the point of how much COA does whitebeard really need to use to own his opponents given that his DF is ridiculously potent in that regard.  Who has he really fought in 22 years to keep up that level of strength and why would he need to?

Garp primarily used COA to deal finishing blows and he wasn't against practice as he actually practiced to take out chinjao's head,   fact of the matter is that he was  seemingly done better things with his fists that old whitebeard seemed to have done with his powers.


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## StrawHat4Life (Apr 12, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Because whitebeard is old.



And? 

He still retains his willpower and vitality. 



Canute87 said:


> I believe age has an effective on haki, don't you?



Not really. I see haki as a manifestation of willpower and drive. Anyway this WB isn't sick. Also you're assuming that whatever level of haki that prime WB possessed has degraded to the point that prime Garp's haki totally surpasses it.  



Canute87 said:


> Plus there's also the point of how much COA does whitebeard really need to use to own his opponents.
> 
> Garp primarily used COA to deal finishing blows and he wasn't against practice.  *fact of the matter is that he was done better things with his fists* that old whitebeard seemed to have done with his powers.



Like what? Give Marco a bruise?


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## Beckman (Apr 12, 2015)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Edit: I see what you mean though. If they both stood in one place and threw punches at each other Garp would most likely drop first, but no one actually does that in a real fight.


They would obviously block, but I don't see either jumping around dodging. Might be wrong here, but it doesn't fit with their personalities. Whitebeard is a pretty stationary fighter and Garp wouldn't back down from a challange head on.



Canute87 said:


> Because whitebeard is old.
> 
> I believe age has an effective on haki, don't you?


Why would it? If anything it would give them more experience and control over it. Unless their willpower weakens, but that didn't seem to be the case with WB.


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## Canute87 (Apr 12, 2015)

StrawHat4Life said:


> And?
> 
> He still retains his willpower and vitality.



Will power is retained at old age?  Never knew that.

Just figured that since everything else went down so would will.




> Not really. I see haki as a manifestation of willpower and drive. Anyway this WB isn't sick. Also you're assuming that whatever level of haki that prime WB possessed has degraded to the point that prime Garp's haki totally surpasses it.



I always saw Garp with better COA haki than whitebeard by virture of the fact he has to use it more, personality attitude all things considered. 

COO is going to be in Garp's favour because his reflexes are also top notch because age has an effect on that I'm very much sure of.

Everybody loses physical strength when they get old.  I don't see Prime Whitebeard's strength being superior to Prime Garp's.



> Like what? Give Marco a bruise?



Old Garp did that.  I'm talking about when Garp levelled mountains to dust and one shot chinjao as a result.


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## Yuki (Apr 12, 2015)

StrawHat4Life said:


> So this isn't an illness ridden WB prone to having his body betray him  at any moment? Then he obviously takes it. I always felt that it was his sickness that handicapped him much more so than age. Old WB still retains his offensive ability and his quake powers are a good counter for a purely physical brawler like Garp, who likely still makes it a close fight though. WB wins with extreme difficulty.



The thing is though, his health problems were caused by age, as such taken them away pretty much makes this Primebeard vs Prime Garp.


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## AdventureNinja (Apr 12, 2015)

My 2 cents is this: Prime Garp was on the same level/directly under Prime Roger and Prime Whitebeard. An old Whitebeard, even without the heart attacks at the Marineford War, is not winning. Both Whitebeard and Garp in their prime were Roger's rivals/on the same level in strength. An old Whitebeard beating the Pirate King's Marine rival in his prime is illogical since he is not as strong as them anymore regardless of whether he is healthy or not. He is old, he gets weaker, so therefore Old Whitebeard loses no matter what. Since Old Whitebeard in this scenario is healthy, he can use his Haki, but Garp in his prime is ridiciously monstrous. Prime Garp's Armament Haki is only surpassed in strength by Prime Roger's Armament Haki, and his physical strength also has his speed behind it since he blitzed Sanji in Water 7 to get to Luffy. An aged Whitebeard is not on the same level anymore as Garp at his peaked strength.

Prime Garp mid-diff. 

My opinion though.


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## Yuki (Apr 12, 2015)

AdventureNinja said:


> My 2 cents is this: Prime Garp was on the same level/directly under Prime Roger and Prime Whitebeard. An old Whitebeard, even without the heart attacks at the Marineford War, is not winning. Both Whitebeard and Garp in their prime were Roger's rivals/on the same level in strength. An old Whitebeard beating the Pirate King's Marine rival in his prime is illogical since he is not as strong as them anymore regardless of whether he is healthy or not. He is old, he gets weaker, so therefore Old Whitebeard loses no matter what. Since Old Whitebeard in this scenario is healthy, he can use his Haki, but Garp in his prime is ridiciously monstrous. Prime Garp's Armament Haki is only surpassed in strength by Prime Roger's Armament Haki, and his physical strength also has his speed behind it since he blitzed Sanji in Water 7 to get to Luffy. An aged Whitebeard is not on the same level anymore as Garp at his peaked strength.
> 
> Prime Garp mid-diff.
> 
> My opinion though.



... Just how weak do you think the world grew in 20 years. >_>

No one is mid diffing fking WB while healthy... Not even like 2 admirals at once.


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## King plasma (Apr 12, 2015)

WB may be old but he's not sick in this scenario. He should win this. I also don't buy into Garp being on the same level as Roger. Garp could give him a good ass fight but he never had any real chance of winning. In fact he never won a single fight/or tied with Roger as far as i can recall, even though they fought numerous times... I peg prime Garp closer to prime Ray than Roger.


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## Yuki (Apr 12, 2015)

King plasma said:


> WB may be old but he's not sick in this scenario. He should win this. I also don't buy into Garp being on the same level as Roger. He could give him a good ass fight but he never had any real hope of winning, in fact he never won a single fight/or tied as far as i can recall. I peg prime Garp closer to prime Ray than Roger.



Roger said he tried to kill Garp, Roger has killed before so we know he has it in him.

He failed every time.


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## Lawliet (Apr 12, 2015)

Garp definitely takes this. I'd be ashamed if he can't even beat a weakened version of a person he used to dance with in his best shape. 

@sh4l, so you think Rayleigh's Haki during SA, a time where he went to the point of drinking all day and selling himself to steal the money back from people is the same as his prime? A time when his butt probably itched if he didn't slice someone down, and a time where he was ready to flip the world around with his captain and partner?


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## King plasma (Apr 12, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Roger said he tried to kill Garp, Roger has killed before so we know he has it in him.
> 
> He failed every time.



No i believe the correct translation is (paraphrasing) we nearly killed each other multiple times or something to that effect.  

There's no reason for Roger to kill Garp, if he wanted him dead his whole crew would have jumped him long ago. If Roger was anything like Luffy which he is, than you should know they don't fight to kill. They just kick that person's ass, and if they die in the process of getting beat up... well too bad so sad. Would Luffy ever kill Smoker?


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## Extravlad (Apr 12, 2015)

WB wins.

He's still too far above Garp in offensive power.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 12, 2015)

Prime Garp = Primebeard. Therefore, its pretty obvious Old WB loses. Prime Garp takes this high (high) difficulty.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Apr 12, 2015)

Prime Garp got to the top and could fight Roger using nothing but his physical stats and Haki. Even in old age, Garp was fast enough to seemingly blitz Marco, and knock him out of his full Phoenix form. While Old Whitebeard has top tier stats, they're not as good as Prime Garp's (durability is debatable though, but even then, doubt they're that far apart), and his Haki   . Not sure of the diff (though it's at least solid high), but Garp definitely wins.


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## Imagine_Breaker (Apr 12, 2015)

Garp, high-mid difficulty.


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## Typhon (Apr 12, 2015)

Garp nearly killed Roger many times. Why wouldn't he be able go beat old WB? Garp wins with high diff.


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## Gohara (Apr 12, 2015)

It can go either way, but if I have to choose I lean towards Old Whitebeard winning with extremely high difficulty.  That's basically speculation, as there's not much to go by.  We just know that both can put up a good fight against Roger.


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## Dunno (Apr 13, 2015)

Could go either way with WB's sickness. Garp wasn't as close to Whitebeard as some people believe. Otherwise he would have been the WSM after Whitebeard's health deteriorated. Without sickness, WB takes it high diff or so.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Apr 13, 2015)

StrawHat4Life said:


> Why would prime Garp have superior haki? This WB has no illness to sap him of his strength. Also I see no reason why the same quake smash that nearly put Akainu out of commission wouldn't have comparable results against Garp.





Canute87 said:


> Because whitebeard is old.
> 
> I believe age has an effective on haki, don't you?
> 
> ...


What Canute said and also because Garp is a man who from what we've seen solely relies on his fist and Haki. If Garp's haki is <= whitebeard's haki who has an island busting df   then he wouldn't be able to keep up with primebeard and Roger.


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## StrawHat4Life (Apr 13, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Will power is retained at old age?  Never knew that.
> 
> Just figured that since everything else went down so would will.



Will power is a product of inner drive and state of mind. Physical age is irrelevant.



> I always saw Garp with better COA haki than whitebeard by virture of the fact he has to use it more, personality attitude all things considered.
> 
> COO is going to be in Garp's favour because his reflexes are also top notch because age has an effect on that I'm very much sure of.



I don't think that by virtue of being a purely physical brawler we should assign Garp superior CoA. Or CoO for that matter. WB has shown that he's also a physical fighter as well and not just DF reliant. We know for a fact that his CoO was good enough to detect attacks in his sleep. In order  for Garp to win his haki will have to be overwhelmingly stronger. Against the WSM? No.



> Everybody loses physical strength when they get old.  I don't see Prime Whitebeard's strength being superior to Prime Garp's



Garp may have had greater pure punching power, but I think that WB was just  as _physically_ strong. Even if there was a difference I think it was a relatively small margin, certainly not enough to give Garp the overwhelming  edge he would need to win.



> Old Garp did that.  I'm talking about when Garp levelled mountains to dust and one shot chinjao as a result.



Is that really a special statement anymore? Mountain leveling scale attacks are already within the capability of Luffy and Zoro.


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## StrawHat4Life (Apr 13, 2015)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> What Canute said and also because Garp is a man who from what we've seen solely relies on his fist and Haki. If Garp's haki is <= whitebeard's haki who has an island busting df   then he wouldn't be able to keep up with primebeard and Roger.


You're assuming that Garp kept up with them. The fact is there was only Roger and WB atop the world, then came everyone else.



oOLawlietOo said:


> @sh4l, so you think Rayleigh's Haki during SA, a time where he went to the point of drinking all day and selling himself to steal the money back from people is the same as his prime? A time when his butt probably itched if he didn't slice someone down, and a time where he was ready to flip the world around with his captain and partner?



Let's ask Kizaru if Rayleigh fought like someone who sat on his ass for over a decade. A man who then proceeded to swim the calm belt just to see Luffy. Once a monster, always a monster.


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## Vengeance (Apr 13, 2015)

> Whitebeard has no heart attacks and is not sick.


Um, normally I would say Prime Garp should take it most likely, but under these conditions I think the odds are slightly in favor of Whitebeard.


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## Extravlad (Apr 13, 2015)

> Prime Garp = Primebeard.


In your fucking dreams.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 13, 2015)

Garp Prime with solid high diff.

Primebeard vs Garp Prime can go either way, favouring WB.


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## AdventureNinja (Apr 13, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> ... Just how weak do you think the world grew in 20 years. >_>
> 
> No one is mid diffing fking WB while healthy... Not even like 2 admirals at once.



WhiteBeard is still a monster 20 years later, but he is not in his prime anymore. It's inevitable that he has weakened. 

Mid-diff does seem a bit far too low, so Prime Garp high-diff. 

P.S. I don't use high-diff unless a matchup's fighters are on the same level. I still think mid-diff. It is *Old* Whitebeard vs *Prime* Garp afterall, but I will go with mid-diff.


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## Nekochako (Apr 13, 2015)

I give the slight edge to Prime Garp but Old Whitebeard withouth health problems could win this too. While i don?t think health was the only reason Old WB was weaker then Prime WB i do believe it was the major reason why he got weaker so he could wins this without his health problems since he is still extremely strong, totally able to use his powers and all.


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## mastergimmy (Apr 13, 2015)

Honestly Garp hasnt shown anyhting to be Old Whitebeard level. Something that surprises me is that prime Garp even needed to train (as he stated) just to overpower Don Chinjao. And lets be honest, if Old Chinjao is this shit, how good can he be in his prime. If Old WB can beat an admiral, think about how strong he was in his prime.

Of Course, you guys will chuck in the Garp=Roger argument. But putting that aside, Old garp hasnt shown destructive power equal to WB at al


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## Tenma (Apr 13, 2015)

mastergimmy said:


> Honestly Garp hasnt shown anyhting to be Old Whitebeard level. Something that surprises me is that prime Garp even needed to train (as he stated) just to overpower Don Chinjao. And lets be honest, if Old Chinjao is this shit, how good can he be in his prime.l



Garp wasn't in his Prime yet at that point.

Beating Chinjao was just one more step towards reaching the top. The fact he was still improving through training should tell you he wasn't 'Prime'. He should have only reached his Prime at the apex at Roger's era where Roger himself was at the peak of his strength.


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## Raiden34 (Apr 13, 2015)

I think Garp is the weakest member of 3 legends ; Roger - Primebeard - Prime Garp, but still, he is one of the strongest and he was close kill Roger, of course we don't know in what situation Garp manage to do that, but I doubt he used some trickery, so yeah Garp is at Whitebeard's level, and his Prime version would beat Whitebeard's Old version.


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## King plasma (Apr 13, 2015)

Honestly i can see Shiki and Rayleigh giving Roger enough trouble in a fight for him to warrant the comment "we nearly killed each other."  

You don't need to be near equal to someone to nearly kill them.

Arlong nearly killed Luffy...
Don Kreig nearly killed Luffy...
and many other examples...

Garp's hype comes from cornering Roger many times, and not for being as strong as him. Only WB was said to be and that's a fact. So old WB without any health problems should still beat prime Garp imo.


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## Kai (Apr 13, 2015)

Whitebeard still wins extreme difficulty.

Garp is slightly overrated imo, despite the fact that he cornered the Pirate King many times. Roger and Whitebeard are/were simply on a separate plane than everyone else.

Whitebeard is the only top tier who can crush a young top tier while as an old man. That's what separates him (and Roger) from everyone else.


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## Pirao (Apr 13, 2015)

Prime Garp no doubt. Old WB is not beating prime legends.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2015)

Lol @ the Roger/Primebeard wank. These dudes are no stronger than Dragon or Prime Garp and barely above the likes of people like Shanks. 

Prime Garp nearly killed Roger many times, which indicates that they have fought each other numerous times (not 2 or 3 times). So when Roger was @ his prime, Garp had enough strength to nearly kill him.


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## Kai (Apr 13, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Prime Garp no doubt. Old WB is not beating prime legends.


Old Whitebeard was the strongest in the whole world that is filled with prime legends.



Elite Uchiha said:


> Lol @ the Roger/Primebeard wank. These dudes are no stronger than Dragon or Prime Garp and barely above the likes of people like Shanks.


Roger and Whitebeard are decisively stronger than everyone in the manga.


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## Extravlad (Apr 13, 2015)

> Lol @ the Roger/Primebeard wank. These dudes are no stronger than Dragon or Prime Garp and barely above the likes of people like Shanks.


They're not even on old WB's lvl.


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## Amol (Apr 13, 2015)

The amount of Garp underestimation and twisting logic to suit their facts is sickening here .
If Prime Garp looses to Old WB, then he is only as strong as MF Akainu.
How the fuck that makes any sense?
Old Garp was superior to likes of Marco.
Either Oda fucked up in portrayals or people just stopped thinking before posting.


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## Beckman (Apr 13, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Lol @ the Roger/Primebeard wank. These dudes are no stronger than Dragon or Prime Garp and barely above the likes of people like Shanks.



So Dragon = Primebeard yet Oldbeard > Dragon? Yeah, makes sense.


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## Kai (Apr 13, 2015)

Why would losing to old WB make Garp as strong as Akainu?

Garp would push WB to extreme difficulty limits. Akainu doesn't have what it takes to push WB to extreme difficulty *by himself.*


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## Extravlad (Apr 13, 2015)

> The amount of Garp underestimation and twisting logic to suit their facts is sickening here .
> If Prime Garp looses to Old WB, then he is only as strong as MF Akainu.
> How the fuck that makes any sense?
> Old Garp was superior to likes of Marco.


Prime WB is an S
Old WB and Prime Garp are S- (Old WB would extreme diff Prime Garp and Prime WB would high-high diff Prime Garp).
Akainu and Old Garp are A+, they'd get high-high diff by Old WB and high-low diff by Prime WB.


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## Raiden34 (Apr 13, 2015)

Amol said:


> Old Garp was superior to likes of Marco.
> .



Just because Old Garp punched Marco one time (and Marco didn't even bleed) that doesn't mean he is in a different league than Marco, Old Rayleigh cut Kizaru's cheek but then in time, he failed to keep up with him due to his old age, we never see full potential Old Garp, I doubt he would take people like Marco that ease. For example, he never try to beat MF-Gura Teach, especially while Teach was trying to provoke both Sengoku and Garp into the battle.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> Old Whitebeard was the strongest in the whole world that is filled with prime legends.
> 
> 
> Roger and Whitebeard are decisively stronger than everyone in the manga.



No, Prime Whitebeard = Roger = Prime Garp. Garp nearly killed Roger multiple times, which obviously includes during Roger's golden era (prime). 

Dragon is going to be at least as strong as Prime Garp given his hype/portrayal. Not to mention if we use Sabo as a template (since he was trained under Dragon), one must assume that Dragon = Sabo + 25yrs of experience + DF Mastery + CoC + greater haki proficiency + D lineage.




Beckman said:


> So Dragon = Primebeard yet Oldbeard > Dragon? Yeah, makes sense.



No, Prime Dragon > Old WB. I bet you are one of those people who still think Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage since it was stated in the manga


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## Pirao (Apr 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> Old Whitebeard was the strongest in the whole *world that is filled with prime legends.*



Such as who?


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## Kai (Apr 13, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:
			
		

> No, Prime Whitebeard = Roger = Prime Garp. Garp nearly killed Roger multiple times, which obviously includes during Roger's golden era (prime).
> 
> Dragon is going to be at least as strong as Prime Garp given his hype/portrayal. Not to mention if we use Sabo as a template (since he was trained under Dragon), one must assume that Dragon = Sabo + 25yrs of experience + DF Mastery + CoC + greater haki proficiency + D lineage.


I was referring to the pre-skip era, not Roger's. Which is still filled with prime legends in the current Yonko and Admirals.



Pirao said:


> Such as who?


Kaido, Big Mom, Shanks? Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji? Dragon?

All of whom I'd assume are about at the peak of their strength. Whitebeard in his old age is stronger them all.


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## Bohemian Knight (Apr 13, 2015)

Prime Garp extreme diff

Roger=Primebeard>=Prime Garp>=MF WB>MF Akainu>=Old Garp

I believe that WB was affected less by aging because of his DF, but the fact is that Garp should have only been a half step behind WB to begin with. With this being said, I think Garp should have enough stamina and tanking ability to withstand WB's quakes and should have the speed to continually press him. Ultimately I see Garp wearing WB down in his old age


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## Captain Altintop (Apr 13, 2015)

Prime Garp high (high) diffs Old WB


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## Beckman (Apr 13, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> No, Prime Dragon > Old WB. I bet you are one of those people who still think Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage since it was stated in the manga



Nope, but I am one of those people capable of separating one author from another. Just because Kishi decided to retcon something doesn't in any way indicate that Oda will.


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## jNdee~ (Apr 13, 2015)

How awfully wanked are Roger and WB prime? They were the two strongest, but I never viewed them as the only people in their league. Prime Garp is the same park as them.

Srsly, ppl always underestimate the marines.


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## Extravlad (Apr 13, 2015)

You tards who say Garp was on the same lvl as Roger/WB have no brains.
He wasn't, and it's proven by Buggy's statement and Old WB's title.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> I was referring to the pre-skip era, not Roger's. Which is still filled with prime legends in the current Yonko and Admirals.
> 
> 
> Kaido, Big Mom, Shanks? Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji? Dragon?
> ...



Apparently Akainu wasnt in his prime, considering he supposedly got stronger post skip. 





Extravlad said:


> You tards who say Garp was on the same lvl as Roger/WB have no brains.
> He wasn't, and it's proven by Buggy's statement and Old WB's title.



Nope, was proven by Roger's statements that Prime Garp = himself. Roger's words >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buggy's.


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## King plasma (Apr 13, 2015)

Amol said:


> The amount of Garp underestimation and twisting logic to suit their facts is sickening here .
> If Prime Garp looses to Old WB, then he is only as strong as MF Akainu.
> How the fuck that makes any sense?
> Old Garp was superior to likes of Marco.
> Either Oda fucked up in portrayals or people just stopped thinking before posting.



Old Garp is stronger than Marco who isn't even considered Admiral level. Also worth mentioning he didn't see Garp coming at him either, and Marco came out with just a bruise.

Old Garp is not stronger than Akainu. BB was ready to rumble with Garp and Sengoku no problem but ran away scared when it was Akainu.

You're just underestimating Akainu and the middle generation in general...Akainu is likely to be nearly as strong as prime Garp. Also i don't see what the difference is between MF Akainu and current Akainu? He's  likely reached his prime, and as fleet admiral he's stuck doing a desk job. Shanks is likely as strong as prime Rayleigh...only WB and Roger have been highlighted to be a level above the rest.


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## StrawHat4Life (Apr 13, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> You tards who say Garp was on the same lvl as Roger/WB have no brains.
> He wasn't, and it's proven by Buggy's statement and Old WB's title.



Keep it civil.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2015)

King plasma said:


> Old Garp is stronger than Marco who isn't even considered Admiral level. Also worth mentioning he didn't see Garp coming at him either, and Marco came out with just a bruise.



How did Marco not see Garp considering he was flying to Ace, who was exactly in the same vicinity as Garp. That means he either saw Garp and tried to endure the hit (not likely) or Old Garp blitzed the FM of the "WSM" 

Moreover, no one is underestimating the mid generation. Dragon (mid gen) is on par with Prime Garp, who nearly killed Roger multiple times.


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## King plasma (Apr 13, 2015)

Sengoku was about to do the same to Marco as well but Garp beat him to it. It was a chaotic war filled with thousands of people so it's understandable if he didn't notice them. Marco hasn't been shown to be any more exceptional than you're average Yonko FM. Beckman and Marco seem about similarly strong which seems right. 



> Moreover, no one is underestimating the mid generation. Dragon (mid gen) is on par with Prime Garp, who nearly killed Roger multiple times.



Yes that's what i been saying the entire time. I guess you view Roger and WB being only trivially stronger? Imo if Roger/WB are 100% than Garp is 90% and old WB(no sickness) is 95%.


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## Zeus. (Apr 13, 2015)

As long as Whitebeard stays healthy, it might go either way. But if it goes like what happened in Marineford, then Garp handily takes it shortly. 

We know Garp was very close to Roger/Prime Newgate, but that's it. So in that sense, Garp would likely end up on top 6/10.



Juvia. said:


> ... Just how weak do you think the world grew in 20 years. >_>
> 
> No one is mid diffing fking WB while healthy... Not even like 2 admirals at once.


Er, two admirals at the same time would arguably be hard even for a guy like Roger sis.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2015)

King plasma said:


> Sengoku was about to do the same to Marco as well but Garp beat him to it. It was a chaotic war filled with thousands of people so it's understandable if he didn't notice them. Marco hasn't been shown to be any more exceptional than you're average Yonko FM. Beckman and Marco seem about similarly strong which seems right.



Thats definitely not an excuse. If you are flying towards Ace, Garp is in your vision. He was right next to Ace for heavens sake. 



> Yes that's what i been saying the entire time. I guess you view Roger and WB being only trivially stronger? Imo if Roger/WB are 100% than Garp is 90% and old WB(no sickness) is 95%.



Yes, if you nearly kill somebody, that implies an extremely difficult fight. If Roger/Garp are 100%, then Prime Garp is either 100% or 99%. Prime Dragon should be around 100% as well considering I put him on par if not above Prime Garp. 

EOS Luffy > Prime Dragon >= Prime Garp


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## Freechoice (Apr 13, 2015)

Prime Garp high diff

It's like fighting Old WB vs Prime WB, but with more badassery and greatness.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 13, 2015)

Garp breaks Whitebeard like a rice cracker.

Reasons:

1) Garp was matched with Roger, and in his prime should have an edge over old Whiteabeard
2) Garp actually has a white beard, unlike Mr white stache over here.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 14, 2015)

This is the forum where people once argued that Whitebeard can beat three admirals at once. I am not surprised to see Old Whitebeard wank TBH.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 14, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> 2) Garp actually has a white beard, unlike Mr white stache over here.


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## Freechoice (Apr 14, 2015)

Beckman said:


> I'd say prime Garp is stronger, but WB would win.
> 
> If Garp played it smart, stalled and waited for WB to tire he would eventually outlast him, but that's not Garps style. Garp would go straight in and trade punches and then WBs superior attack power would give him the win.





StrawHat4Life said:


> So this isn't an illness ridden WB prone to having his body betray him  at any moment? Then he obviously takes it. I always felt that it was his sickness that handicapped him much more so than age. Old WB still retains his offensive ability and his quake powers are a good counter for a purely physical brawler like Garp, who likely still makes it a close fight though. WB wins with extreme difficulty.





StrawHat4Life said:


> Why would prime Garp have superior haki? This WB has no illness to sap him of his strength. Also I see no reason why the same quake smash that nearly put Akainu out of commission wouldn't have comparable results against Garp.



*Here are the only three times that make you think stuff​*






Here are some motherfucking points, SH4L > Me 


Two quotes > One quote from a plebian ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) clown
Something more closer to the present is usually more valid; for reference see the entirety of recorded history
Nearly killing countless times > Tied in a fight
Garp is marine parallel to Roger equivalent noobs
*HERO OF THE MARINES
*
Whitebeard is heavily reliant on his DF, Garp got to the top with physical prowess and monstrous haki alone, according to BashFace


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## Pirao (Apr 14, 2015)

Kai said:


> Kaido, Big Mom, Shanks? Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji? Dragon?
> 
> All of whom I'd assume are about at the peak of their strength. Whitebeard in his old age is stronger them all.



And since when are those guys legends? Legends = Roger, WB, Rayleigh and Garp, which are of coure > all those guys.


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## Beckman (Apr 14, 2015)

lol said:


> *Here are the only three times that make you think stuff​*
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Don't see how that is relevant to anything I said tbh. 



But if you want to argue that Prime Garp = Roger = Primebeard you need to explain why Sengoku thought old WB > old Garp, especially since WB seems to have declined more with his disease. It doesn't add up.


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## trance (Apr 14, 2015)

Garp with very high difficulty. Whitebeard has more destructive power but that's really it.


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## Extravlad (Apr 14, 2015)

> Nope, was proven by Roger's statements that Prime Garp = himself. Roger's words >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buggy's.


Roger's statement doesn't mean he and Garp were equal.
It says Garp almost killed Roger many times.
Just like Smoker almost caught him many times preskip it doesn't mean he'll be as strong as EoS Luffy.

Buggy's statement mean a lot more, it says NOBODY could fight on par with Roger aside of WB.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Apr 14, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> Roger's statement doesn't mean he and Garp were equal.
> It says Garp almost killed Roger many times.
> Just like Smoker almost caught him many times preskip it doesn't mean he'll be as strong as EoS Luffy.
> 
> Buggy's statement mean a lot more, it says NOBODY could fight on par with Roger aside of WB.


Almost killed him= Almost caught him
what are you even saying vlad kun
also how does someone *almost* killing you not mean he's your equal in strength


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Apr 14, 2015)

Also nice selective reading
Taking Buggy's words but completely ignoring Roger's words which came much later


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## Freechoice (Apr 14, 2015)

Chrollo


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## Extravlad (Apr 14, 2015)

> Almost killed him= Almost caught him
> what are you even saying vlad kun


Smoker never tried to kill Luffy 
It's the exact same thing, except that Garp tried to murder Roger not to catch him.



> also how does someone almost killing you not mean he's your equal in strength


I feel like you're trolling me.
How the fuck is Garp almost killing Roger IN THE PAST, relevant to Prime Garp vs 
Roger?
Crocodile almost killed Luffy twice at Alabasta, if Eos Luffy tell him "we almost killed each other" it won't mean shit regarding EoS Luffy vs EoS Croc.
Buggy was on Roger's ship in the last 3 years of his journey, the most relevant ones.

He saw every single fight of PK Roger and the only one who could rival him was Edward Newgate


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Apr 14, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> Smoker never tried to kill Luffy
> It's the exact same thing, except that Garp tried to murder Roger not to catch him.
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, ok. So we just gon say the almost killing never happened in their prime days cuz that would ruin the WB/Roger>Garp notion
cool


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## Ghost (Apr 14, 2015)

Primebeard > Prime Garp > Old Whitebeard


Garp wins extreme diff.


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## Extravlad (Apr 14, 2015)

> Oh, ok. So we just gon say the almost killing never happened in their prime days cuz that would ruin the WB/Roger>Garp notion


We're gonna say it never happened because someone that was actually on Roger's ship during their prime days told us it didn't.

Also the fact that an ill Newgate is still stronger than a healthy Garp at Marineford.


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## Vengeance (Apr 14, 2015)

"Nearly killed each other" is not an unambiguous statement. It doesn't validate that Garp and Roger were equal in their Prime, nor does it validate that they were even equals. Garp giving Roger very high difficulty could also result in such a statement by Roger. 
Then we have other information which is unambiguous and does contradict the interpretation of them being equals in their Prime (which is only seen individually the more logical interpretation ):
- Whitebeard being the WSM, apparently even undisputed despite his sickness
- Buggy's statement that Whitebeard was the only man who ever tied against Roger in a a fight
And the distinct indication that Whitebeard has been the WSM for a long time: "I can't be the strongest forever". (Since it could be argued that Garp lost more strength than Whitebeard as time passed)
Thus the interpretation of Prime Garp = Prime Whitebeard doesn't fit in the overall picture Oda has presented.


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## Kai (Apr 14, 2015)

Whitebeard is the *only* one to ever draw with Roger.

Garp never won or even tied with Roger. They almost killed each other many times.

Get it?

This "Garp is the Roger of the Marines so Garp ~ Roger" is nothing but complete fanfiction.


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## Freechoice (Apr 14, 2015)

You are wrong because I said so


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## ShadoLord (Apr 14, 2015)

Old WB wins extreme-diff. Quake Fist>Garp's Fist


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## felixng2008 (Apr 14, 2015)

Garp with extreme difficulty. Garp wasn't Roger's equal but he was strong enough to threaten his life and corner him. 

People are underestimating how much weaker Old WB is compared to his prime. No way does he beat Prime Garp.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 14, 2015)

Prime Garp wins.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 14, 2015)

Roger's statements > Buggy statements. End of discussion.

Garp nearly killed him multiple times, implying multiple extreme difficulty fights. If people try and imply that these were all fights during the beginning of Roger's career, then there would be no way he could trust Garp like he did. These guys battled often, often enough to establish trust. 

People really overrate Roger/WB. Lets not forget Buggy is the same person who thought Shiki could beat Roger


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## Bohemian Knight (Apr 14, 2015)

^Buggy feard Shiki's fleet, which dwarfed Roger's. Even if Shiki had no chance of taking Roger, he still could have used his manpower to sink the Oro. Then Buggy drowns. So you can say that Buggy feared the situation and that he never doubted Roger's ability to beat Shiki in a 1v1


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 14, 2015)

Bohemian Knight said:


> ^Buggy feard Shiki's fleet, which dwarfed Roger's. Even if Shiki had no chance of taking Roger, he still could have used his manpower to sink the Oro. Then Buggy drowns. So you can say that Buggy feared the situation and that he never doubted Roger's ability to beat Shiki in a 1v1



So your implying that a fleet of fodder can sink the PK's ship? Haven't we learned that numbers don't matter in this manga? If you sink the Oro, you are essentially defeating Roger in a sense (especially if he had a DF). Since Buggy "has seen Roger in his Prime", there should have been no worries. 

In essence, stop wanking Roger/WB as if they were leagues above everyone. If you really want to take Buggy's words as the Gospel, then Shiki fleet > Roger's Fleet.


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## Raiden34 (Apr 14, 2015)

Wait, is this turned into Prime Garp vs. Prime Whitebeard ? E.Oda already decided that by giving the title of ''World Strongest Man'' to Whitebeard, we don't need Buggy's statement for that.

And Garp has already admitted Whitebeard's superiority with saying ''Ruler of the Seas''....


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## Tenma (Apr 14, 2015)

Garp doesn't have to be functionally equal (as extreme diff would imply) to Roger to nearly kill him. We don't know the circumstances behind these near-death events but it is unlikely to be a fair 1v1 fight with both fighters at 100% with no interruption.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 14, 2015)

> And Garp has already admitted Whitebeard's superiority with saying ''Ruler of the Seas''....



Ruler of the sea who only had 1/4th of the territory of new world. 

Anyway Garp could have been WSM & still wouldn't be ruler of sea. You need to actually rule to be one & Garp never had such ambition.


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## Freechoice (Apr 14, 2015)

- Nearly killing each other countless times implying they weren't close in strength and Garp was high diffed often or some shit ???? something something ?? 

One of the two interpretation's of Roger's statement is more likely. And it's not that one.






What intention do you think Oda had when he illustrated Roger saying that? Pls tell me


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## MrWano (Apr 14, 2015)

Garp edges it out against the WB we've seen fight.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 14, 2015)

Old WB = Prime Garp


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## Captain Altintop (Apr 14, 2015)

100 = Roger, Prime WB 
97 = Prime Garp
95 = Prime Rayleigh , Prime Sengoku
94 = Old WB
92 = Shanks , FA Akainu , Mihawk
91 = Old Garp, Kizaru
90 = Old Sengoku
89 = Old Rayleigh, Fuji, Marco

The biggest difference between the prime and old legends is Roger/WB to Old Rayleigh. 

Prime Garp's role will be substituted by  EoS Smoker who fits in between Zoro and Luffy.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 14, 2015)

If Whitebeard has no injuries or sickness whatsoever (albeit still old in age), Prime Garp defeats him with around high difficulty.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 14, 2015)

Tenma said:


> *Garp doesn't have to be functionally equal (as extreme diff would imply) to Roger to nearly kill him*. We don't know the circumstances behind these near-death events but it is unlikely to be a fair 1v1 fight with both fighters at 100% with no interruption.



This.

Smoker can "almost kill" Luffy if he gets a cheap shot in with his Jutte. But he his nowhere near Luffy's level.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 14, 2015)

Now people are making up scenarios on how Garp nearly killed Roger (trying to discredit Garp). Can't believe people are acting like Garp is the type to go for cheap shots. Moreover, Roger should have top tier CoO


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## Freechoice (Apr 14, 2015)

It's not open to interpretation when you take into account what is was that Oda's trying to convey with that quote. 

There is a right answer, and a wrong one.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 14, 2015)

I don't think Prime Garp is stronger than Prime Roger or Prime WB, but the guy is strong enough to push either of them to extreme difficulty with his own strength. 
He should win around 4.5/10 times.

He has been pretty underrated as of late. His Haki is portrayed to be absolutely monstrous and probably only rivaled by Dragon/Roger/Shanks.


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## Vengeance (Apr 15, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Now people are making up scenarios on how Garp nearly killed Roger (trying to discredit Garp). Can't believe people are acting like Garp is the type to go for cheap shots. Moreover, Roger should have top tier CoO




Why was sick old Whitebeard still considered WSM, also by Sengoku?




lol said:


> What intention do you think Oda had when he illustrated Roger saying that? Pls tell me



That Garp is one badass mofo who can even hang with (Prime) Roger. Not necessarily in the sense of being his equal, especially not in view of the other information he gave us.


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## MrPopo (Apr 15, 2015)

Prime Garp high diff. Prime Garp is on the same level as Rodger and Prime Whitebeard.


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## Tenma (Apr 15, 2015)

Garp doesn't have to be functionally equal to Roger to be his rival. Not to mention they have different growth rates. As long as he is in the same league and can give him high-very high diff is sufficient.

Extreme diff implies that two fighters are for all intents and purposes practically equal and it is not clear who is stronger. The fact _everyone_ knew that Whitebeard was stronger than Garp despite WB being sick and shit (and hence deteriorating more) shows that WB was superior by a small but clearly existent and noticeable margin, which means it is fair to say Garp gives him high-high diff. 

There's a reason why there is no holder of the WSM title today, because who is the strongest is not so immediately obvious. WB>Garp now, and it was more than likely the same in the past.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 15, 2015)

High difficulty fights don't result in near death occurrences, extreme difficulty fights do. 

Moreover, no one actually knew the severity of WBs condition going into MF. Once he got the WSM title, no one tried to take it away from him (ala WSS title). People here actually think WB has had any battles since his Prime. If you don't have current information on something, you must base it on the past.


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## Zeus. (Apr 15, 2015)

"Nearly killed each other numerous times" is ambiguous. Croc and Luffy have done that to each other. Smoker and Luffy. Luffy and Buggy. At the very least, Roger acknowledged Garp as one of his greatest and closest rivals. We can all agree that Garp was on Roger and Newgate's level, and probably only one half-step below them.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 15, 2015)

Zeus. said:


> "Nearly killed each other numerous times" is ambiguous. Croc and Luffy have done that to each other. Smoker and Luffy. Luffy and Buggy. At the very least, Roger acknowledged Garp as one of his greatest and closest rivals. We can all agree that Garp was on Roger and Newgate's level, and probably only one half-step below them.



Crocodile: Because luffy couldn't hit him
Smoker: Same thing
Buggy: Lol are you kidding me?

Garp unlike these is a straight up brawler, no funny tricks, no devil fruit. Pure power house who chased him throughout his journey.


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## Zeus. (Apr 15, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Crocodile: Because luffy couldn't hit him


Even when Luffy figured out Croc's weakness, he still nearly died 2nd and 3rd round.


> Smoker: Same thing


He still nearly "killed" Luffy, especially at Marineford. 


> Buggy: Lol are you kidding me?


 First fight and when Luffy was caught in the cage from Nami. The execution stand at Loguetown, and during Impel Down.



> Garp unlike these is a straight up brawler, no funny tricks, no devil fruit. Pure power house who chased him throughout his journey.


Then why was Garp willing to listen to Sengoku's tactics at undermining the Whitebeard pirates? 

The statement is ambiguous because Roger doesn't specify anything. He didn't mention that their encounters always involved a 1 on 1 skirmish with no interruptions. Shiki nearly defeats Roger at the Battle of Edd War, but it's mentioned that they were saved by that storm.


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## Typhon (Apr 15, 2015)

The heck is this about "if Garp was on their level in prime, how come he wasn't when they got old?"

Maybe because WB has the strongest paramecia class devil fruit that is capable of sinking islands even in the hands of a newbie.


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## Canute87 (Apr 15, 2015)

I feel that people are overhyping the gura gura abilities when it comes to top tiers.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 15, 2015)

Zeus. said:


> Even when Luffy figured out Croc's weakness, he still nearly died 2nd and 3rd round.



2nd Round: He was impaired by his body becoming weird.
3rd Round: He still fucked croc up, overwhelmingly. The only reason he almost died was because of Croc's Poison blade grazing him. Like I said, garp is a straight up brawler type from his portrayal and won't use stuff like Poison etc to bring roger down to that level.



> He still nearly "killed" Luffy, especially at Marineford.


Again luffy couldn't touch him or push him away. Really doesn't matter what smoker did to luffy at marineford (as much as I hate to say it, since I'm a massive smoker fan)




> Then why was Garp willing to listen to Sengoku's tactics at undermining the Whitebeard pirates?



Garp barely participated. He was more or less there to observe and watch over his grandson's execution. He wasn't the one following orders, others were. When he attacked marco, that was going against sengoku actually and it was borne out of an emotional reaction. When BB stepped in, he stood up on his own accord, without being ordered to help.



> The statement is ambiguous because Roger doesn't specify anything. He didn't mention that their encounters always involved a 1 on 1 skirmish with no interruptions. Shiki nearly defeats Roger at the Battle of Edd War, but it's mentioned that they were saved by that storm.



Then buggy's statement could be considered ambiguous too. Tied meaning their crews reached a standstill when they clashed.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 15, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> I feel that people are overhyping the gura gura abilities when it comes to top tiers.



How so? It's pretty powerful...


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## Canute87 (Apr 15, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> How so? It's pretty powerful...



It's powerful but people pretend that Garp for some strange reason can't deal with it.

There's nothing about the power that can't be countered.  Admirals were able to block and counter it the few times they clashed.

The FREE attack Whitebeard got on the back of akainu's head was answered instantly and the second attack kept him down for a few minutes at best.


It's just  not the deus x machina people think it is. If Prime Garp can deal with Akainu and that level of lethality he just as well can deal with whitebeard and that power. For christ sake Roger dealt with it and Whitebeard couldn't beat him at any point.


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## Zeus. (Apr 15, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> 2nd Round: He was impaired by his body becoming weird.
> 3rd Round: He still fucked croc up, overwhelmingly. The only reason he almost died was because of Croc's Poison blade grazing him. Like I said, garp is a straight up brawler type from his portrayal and won't use stuff like Poison etc to bring roger down to that level.


The point is that Croc nearly killed Luffy several times, regardless of the conditions of both characters. The words "We killed each other many times" wouldn't work because it's vague. We don't know if Roger and Garp only dueled or if there was interference. Yes, knowing Garp's nature (And a clear example with his conflicts with Chinjao) he and Roger likely dueled more than once.



> Garp barely participated. He was more or less there to observe and watch over his grandson's execution. He wasn't the one following orders, others were. When he attacked marco, that was going against sengoku actually and it was borne out of an emotional reaction. When BB stepped in, he stood up on his own accord, without being ordered to help.


He ultimately lended himself under Sengoku and respected his decisions to make moves towards Whitebeard, because he also saw to it that he be defeated. Otherwise, he'd have participated in the war much earlier and further ignored orders regardless.



> Then buggy's statement could be considered ambiguous too. Tied meaning their crews reached a standstill when they clashed.




"_The only one who tied in a fight against Gold Roger, the Pirate King! Without a doubt, he is currently the strongest pirate of the world!"_"

Buggy's words are clearer and indicative of Whitebeard's stature. He refers to the two men alone, in a duel. The two were dead equals, and after Roger's death, Whitebeard was left unequaled, and hence the Strongest Man title. Also take note how he mentions that Newgate is the _only one_ to tie Roger. That says a lot.

I would probably advocate that Garp was physically the strongest tho.


----------



## Freechoice (Apr 15, 2015)

Canute


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 15, 2015)

Zeus. said:


> The point is that Croc nearly killed Luffy several times, regardless of the conditions of both characters.



My point being that those circumstances would not be in place for Garp and roger considering Garp's personality or fighting style.



> The words "We killed each other many times" wouldn't work because it's vague. We don't know if Roger and Garp only dueled or if there was interference. Yes, knowing Garp's nature (And a clear example with his conflicts with Chinjao) *he and Roger likely dueled more than once*.



Okay, and in those duels they nearly killed each other many times. Roger is a man willing to kill, but he wasn't able to kill Garp in any of these duels and neither was garp. I consider Roger's words to hold more weight than buggy's



> He ultimately lended himself under Sengoku and respected his decisions to make moves towards Whitebeard, because he also saw to it that he be defeated. Otherwise, he'd have participated in the war much earlier and further ignored orders regardless.



He was very conflicted. He had an attitude of "whatever happens, happens" during the war, much like his grandson, Ace. He would not have participated earlier or likely ever. After ace died however, his objective changed and became clear, and he jumped into the fray right away to defend MF against BB without any orders, because there was no conflict.



> "_The only one who tied in a fight against Gold Roger, the Pirate King! Without a doubt, he is currently the strongest pirate of the world!"_"
> 
> Buggy's words are clearer and indicative of Whitebeard's stature. He refers to the two men alone, in a duel. The two were dead equals, and after Roger's death, Whitebeard was left unequaled, and hence the Strongest Man title. Also take note how he mentions that Newgate is the _only one_ to tie Roger. That says a lot.



he was referring to wb as the only pirate who tied with Roger (considering the context of the conversation, and what he said afterwards about WB being the *strongest pirate*) And like we've been saying we also don't know the circumstances under which they tied.


----------



## Zeus. (Apr 15, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> My point being that those circumstances would not be in place for Garp and roger considering Garp's personality or fighting style.


 Croc and Luffy fought directly, in spite of those circumstances and conditions. Luffy can literally repeat Roger's words when re-telling his past with Croc in Alabasta. What Roger's statement means many things. A battle between leaders and their companions like a typical marine vs pirate war, is one example. 

Remember when Law said that the Yonkou used to fight over the throne? That of which included Whitebeard? Could we draw the conclusion that the Yonkous dueled each other individually and, as indicative of the current hierarchy, are dead equals? That's the complication.



> Okay, and in those duels they nearly killed each other many times. Roger is a man willing to kill, but he wasn't able to kill Garp in any of these duels and neither was garp. I consider Roger's words to hold more weight than buggy's


 We don't know that for sure. Buggy sure as hell knows what he's talking about. He understands that Whitebeard was the top pirate and was the closest to One Piece. The statement was meant to be basic exposition about who the hell Whitebeard is and his status. From the context of the scene, he seemed pretty serious considering one of WB's members was on his ship.



> He was very conflicted. He had an attitude of "whatever happens, happens" during the war, much like his grandson, Ace. He would not have participated earlier or likely ever. After ace died however, his objective changed and became clear, and he jumped into the fray right away to defend MF against BB without any orders, because there was no conflict.


Conflicted with participating in the war, not agreeing with it. He was all for Ace being executed because that was his fault as a very notorious pirate with a dangerous bloodline, but the conflict was between his duty and family. He had no disagreement with following Sengoku's tactics to disrupt the Whitebeard pirates.



> he was referring to wb as the only pirate who tied with Roger (considering the context of the conversation, and what he said afterwards about WB being the *strongest pirate*) And like we've been saying we also don't know the circumstances under which they tied.


Then why is it that Whitebeard is considered the strongest man? Not pirate as per say?


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 15, 2015)

Zeus. said:


> Remember when Law said that the Yonkou used to fight over the throne? That of which included Whitebeard? Could we draw the conclusion that the Yonkous dueled each other individually and, as indicative of the current hierarchy, are dead equals? That's the complication.



The Yonkos can't fight off each other or go all out against each other. That would not be in their best interest, since it could lead to even the winner weakening significantly enough for his territories and power being taken by another opportunistic yonko. Put frankly, it'd be a pyrrhic victory.



> We don't know that for sure. Buggy sure as hell knows what he's talking about. He understands that Whitebeard was the top pirate and was the closest to One Piece. The statement was meant to be basic exposition about who the hell Whitebeard is and his status. From the context of the scene, he seemed pretty serious considering one of WB's members was on his ship.



Again, he was a cabin boy. Sure, he'd be the one closest to one piece, because it's a treasure the pirates are hunting for. The conversation is in context of pirates.



> Conflicted with participating in the war, not agreeing with it. He was all for Ace being executed because that was his fault as a very notorious pirate with a dangerous bloodline, but the conflict was between his duty and family. He had no disagreement with following Sengoku's tactics to disrupt the Whitebeard pirates.



Even on agreeing with it he was conflicted. He had his duties as a marine to kill ace. He knew ace was notorious a pirate. But he was still a family man. He didn't follow sengoku's tactics, but he didn't oppose them either. He didn't agree with the war but he couldn't disagree with it either. Every aspect of his association with the war over ace was in conflict. Sengoku could even see that.



> Then why is it that Whitebeard is considered the strongest man? Not pirate as per say?



One aspect of his power being reliant on the devil fruit. The other aspects of his body may fade in power from age (like with garp), but his usage of his fruit and it's power should be pretty constant. This fruit can turn the ground and crack the sky. In terms of influence it'd be pretty handy. Even after Sengoku saw Whitebeard get stabbed by squardo which indicated how his refexes have deteriorated, he still called him WSM. He was said to have the power to destroy the world.


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## Zeus. (Apr 16, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> The Yonkos can't fight off each other or go all out against each other. That would not be in their best interest, since it could lead to even the winner weakening significantly enough for his territories and power being taken by another opportunistic yonko. Put frankly, it'd be a pyrrhic victory.


 You can argue both ways for why Garp and Roger would bother to fight in many times in fears of endangering their territories and crew. Can't forget the power and influence of pirates like Shiki either. 

Garp was also noted to have "cornered" Roger many times. That likely translates to Roger's words in which Garp's personal crew chased out and trapped Roger's crew in many occasions. We see this parallel between Smoker's G5 and the Strawhats.



> Again, he was a cabin boy. Sure, he'd be the one closest to one piece, because it's a treasure the pirates are hunting for. The conversation is in context of pirates.


 Seemed pretty accurate to me so far. Strongest Man is universal. Oda has went out of his way to hype Newgate up not only as one of the greatest pirates, but one of the strongest characters. Sure Garp is up there with him, but a dead equal? Questionable.

Being the closest to One Piece means he was the closest pirate to become the next King. Buggy explicitly states that Whitebeard was the only _man_ to have tied with Roger. Surely it wasn't just a discussion of pirates. Whitebeard's supreme title holds true.

Would you say current Garp was at all equal to Old Whitebeard? Even with the latter deteriorating his health much worse over the years?



> Even on agreeing with it he was conflicted. He had his duties as a marine to kill ace. He knew ace was notorious a pirate. But he was still a family man. He didn't follow sengoku's tactics, but he didn't oppose them either. He didn't agree with the war but he couldn't disagree with it either. Every aspect of his association with the war over ace was in conflict. Sengoku could even see that.


Garp definitely agreed with the war. He felt Ace's execution was necessary, to bring out and finally take down Whitebeard. In preparation of the Marineford battle, Garp was clearly in favor of drawing the old man out, because that is the most favorable way to battle a Yonkou at this point in the story without interference from others.

Of course Garp is a man of honor and would rather take a fight head on, but he still places his duty as a marine above everything else except family. Did he like the fact that Roger turned himself in without a fight? Probably not. But he accepted it for the sake of the marines. Also, he willingly tag-teamed with Sengoku to take out Shiki at Marineford rather than a fair duel for the good of Marineford.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 16, 2015)

Please stop using Buggy's statement when he believed Shiki's crew could beat Roger's 

If you haven't notice, Buggy is a "clown" in every since possible.


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## Zeus. (Apr 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Please stop using Buggy's statement when he believed Shiki's crew could beat Roger's
> 
> If you haven't notice, Buggy is a "clown" in every since possible.


That's a very bad direction you're taking that argument through. Nothing Buggy said of Whitebeard was inherently wrong. 

It was stated that the storm _saved_ Roger's crew from their demise.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 16, 2015)

Zeus. said:


> That's a very bad direction you're taking that argument through. Nothing Buggy said of Whitebeard was inherently wrong.
> 
> It was stated that the storm _saved_ Roger's crew from their demise.



So essentially you are saying Shiki > Roger? That means Roger/WB are overrated and people like Shiki and Garp could potentially kill them. Glad we are in agreement.


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## Zeus. (Apr 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> So essentially you are saying Shiki > Roger? That means Roger/WB are overrated and people like Shiki and Garp could potentially kill them. Glad we are in agreement.


Er, no. Roger escaped from Shiki's grasp despite losing half his fleet because he knew the odds were against the Pirate King. That is not a testament to Shiki's sole strength obviously. He's not personally challenging Roger in a duel, with Roger running in fear. It's a battle of fleets in which Roger was heavily outnumbered.

Roger and Whitebeard were the undisputed strongest characters in a fight. Garp and Shiki can kill them, but not in a duel. I actually do believe that Shiki is underrated here though. He's definitely in line with the other legends.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 16, 2015)

Zeus. said:


> Er, no. Roger escaped from Shiki's grasp despite losing half his fleet because he knew the odds were against the Pirate King. That is not a testament to Shiki's sole strength obviously. He's not personally challenging Roger in a duel, with Roger running in fear. It's a battle of fleets in which Roger was heavily outnumbered.
> 
> Roger and Whitebeard were the undisputed strongest characters in a fight. Garp and Shiki can kill them, but not in a duel. I actually do believe that Shiki is underrated here though. He's definitely in line with the other legends.



It honestly should matter how many more men Shiki had in comparison to Roger. Haven't we learned that its quality of quantity? If you think adding a couple more ships increases the chances of beating a WB/Roger, then I have severely overestimated their strength.


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## Zeus. (Apr 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> It honestly should matter how many more men Shiki had in comparison to Roger. Haven't we learned that its quality of quantity? If you think adding a couple more ships increases the chances of beating a WB/Roger, then I have severely overestimated their strength.


While Newgate and Roger were indeed the GOAT, Shiki and Garp are definitely not far from them at all. Shiki could fight a Prime Garp and Sengoku together for a length of time. 

And adding a couple of ships? Shiki had a gargantuan fleet to Roger's Oro Jackson. They escaped for a reason. But that doesn't mean Shiki > Roger individually. Oda really did not make it hard to understand this at all.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 16, 2015)

Zeus. said:


> While Newgate and Roger were indeed the GOAT, Shiki and Garp are definitely not far from them at all. Shiki could fight a Prime Garp and Sengoku together for a length of time.
> 
> And adding a couple of ships? Shiki had a gargantuan fleet to Roger's Oro Jackson. They escaped for a reason. But that doesn't mean Shiki > Roger individually. Oda really did not make it hard to understand this at all.



You are avoiding my question. Do you honestly believe an extra 10 ships of Fodder make a difference vs individuals like Ray and Roger? If so you are either mistaken or these pirates are overrated. One CoC blast should have eliminated 90% of the fleet


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## Vengeance (Apr 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Please stop using Buggy's statement when he believed Shiki's crew could beat Roger's
> 
> If you haven't notice, Buggy is a "clown" in every since possible.



The two statements are completely different. One depicts what Buggy thought back at the Edd War before the battle actually occurred, the other reveals what Buggy has witnessed - that nobody except Whitebeard tied in a fight against Roger. A statement which has to be taken at face value unless proven otherwise, which hasn't happened.


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## Freechoice (Apr 16, 2015)

You can place ambiguity on any statement to further your own prejudices,


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## Vengeance (Apr 16, 2015)

lol said:


> You can place ambiguity on any statement to further your own prejudices,



What's more ambiguous?
Whitbeard's WSM title and "only man who ever tied against Roger" or "almost killed each other"?


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## Freechoice (Apr 16, 2015)

The one that further reinforces my side of the argument, of course


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## Vengeance (Apr 16, 2015)

lol said:


> The one that further reinforces my side of the argument, of course



From a neutral perspective it's pretty clear which one. But this is even coming from a huge Garp fan
...
Anyway, I won't discuss this with you any further, don't want to fall out with you.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 16, 2015)

Vengeance said:


> The two statements are completely different. One depicts what Buggy thought back at the Edd War before the battle actually occurred, the other reveals what Buggy has witnessed - that nobody except Whitebeard tied in a fight against Roger. A statement which has to be taken at face value unless proven otherwise, which hasn't happened.



The two statements aren't different at all. Buggy thought, after seeing Roger in battle (presumably vs WB too), that they did not have a chance vs Shiki. Stop using one statement and not the other because it fits your argument. Personally, I just disregard Buggy in general and listen to Roger.

Roger's statements >>>>>> big ass clown Buggy's statement > your statements


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## Zeus. (Apr 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The two statements aren't different at all. Buggy thought, after seeing Roger in battle (presumably vs WB too), that they did not have a chance vs Shiki. Stop using one statement and not the other because it fits your argument. Personally, I just disregard Buggy in general and listen to Roger.


 This is just backwards logic. Buggy is just like Usopp in that scenario, that isn't a reason to deny obvious, clear expositions given to characters. What Buggy said about Whitebeard was all true, *and Ace himself was there to hear it*. It's stupid to argue against that. Guess what? Whitebeard does end up being the strongest man, and he was Roger's number one rival.

The two statements _are_ different. Any english teacher will tell you which statement is concise and which is vague and ambiguous. "We killed each other multiple times" means many things, and I've pointed out those possibilities already.


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## Vengeance (Apr 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The two statements aren't different at all. Buggy thought, after seeing Roger in battle (presumably vs WB too), that they did not have a chance vs Shiki. Stop using one statement and not the other because it fits your argument. Personally, I just disregard Buggy in general and listen to Roger.
> 
> Roger's statements >>>>>> big ass clown Buggy's statement > your statements



What the heck, seriously 
You're the one who disregards a statement because it doesn't fit your opinion.
Buggy's Edd War statement: His thoughts, his prediction about something that has yet to occur at that point of time.
Buggy's WB statement: His testimony about a circumstance he has witnessed. 
And these are not different at all?
Or lets just give an example:
Statement 1: Back in the days, Yosaku: "Zoro might beat Mihawk".
Statement 2: Today, Yosaku: "Damn, Mihawk shit all over Zoro".
Are these statements not different, does statement 1 make statements like 2 irrelevant?
Also what you don't get is that Buggy's statement doesn't contradict Roger's statement, but only an interpretation of it.


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## Zeus. (Apr 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> You are avoiding my question. Do you honestly believe an extra 10 ships of Fodder make a difference vs individuals like Ray and Roger? If so you are either mistaken or these pirates are overrated. One CoC blast should have eliminated 90% of the fleet


This is getting ridiculous. Shiki had around 25 ships and was known to have the largest fleet and surely they were not filled with fodder alone. Shiki probably had a crew as strong as your typical Yonkou. He best stood out for his pirate fleet, which you're severely underestimating. 

Please learn to understand the context and the author's intent. It really isn't all that difficult to comprehend.


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## LyricalMessiah (Apr 16, 2015)

Prime Garp should win with High extreme difficulty against Whitebeard. At his prime, he should have had the requisite physical strength, Haki and speed to defeat Old Whitebeard as he was stated to have nearly killed Rodger on several occasions and viceversa. It should be a tough match because they're both extremely powerful foes who're the elits amongst the elites.


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