# Edo Itachi vs Nagato



## WinNo1929 (Oct 24, 2022)

Who do you think wins and why?

Location: same place they fought, they have intel on one another, and are both bloodlusted.

Im just going to post some arguments ive compiled, let me know what you guys think of them

Itachi arguably dodged ST. Look at the panel again, all three were standing besides each other yet when ST was launched Itachi suddenly disappeared without none of them noticing his existence went missing.

And also using the Kabuto controlling Nagato excuse isn't working here because that same Nagato controlled or not fought far smarter than Nagato has ever shown himself, Nagatos power didn't go down because Kabuto a genius controlled him, he still folded bee and Naruto easily and they were about to die. When Nagato was in control of his body he canonically got hit with amaterasu, fell down and was on the floor for a period of time

And Nagato had something called shared vision like his six paths of pain and still he was still blitzed. Itachi factually bypassed shared vision with a fucking Kunai and Nagato didn't go blind because if his vision was suddenly cut off he and Kabuto would be seeing a black screen but that didn't happen as Itachi actually blitzed him. Even if you say "he was proccupied holding the two of them" Nagato has shown the capabilities to combine multiple rinnegan abilities at once, he could have used Shinra Tensei to block the susanoo arm skeleton thing, but couldnt

No matter how much damage control you want to do it will remain a fact that Itachi blitzed Nagato. He blitzed Bee the same and was factually unbothered when facing both Naruto and Bee at the same time.

And lastly no matter how much you don't want to accept this fact also, Totsuka blitzed Nagato. Don't even come with the smoke bullshit because *Naruto launched a Rasenshuriken from a smoke screen yet Pain reacted to it, yet Nagato who was standing about 11 meters away from the smoke screen couldn't react to Totsuka extending from it. Nagato got blitzed..... TWICE. Kabuto even says Nagato wasnt mobile enough to dodge it*

Nagato is also a sensor too - there is zero excuse to be made

Arguments coming from Nagato was distracted but he actually wasn't. Nagato has proved he has no problem multitasking with six bodies all at once yet people argue he was distracted by two opponent's.

And mentioning that "Nagato's linked vision was destroyed thats why he couldnt see Itachi", THEY WERE TAKEN OUT BY ITACHI. His kunai moved so fast that Nagato/Kabuto couldnt even percieve the fact their linked vision was taken out

Then we say, is Kabuto using Nagato's powers over Nagato himself? The original Pain body was running for his life against 6 tails cloak naruto and getting bodied, while Kabuto/Nagato nearly killed a much stronger version of naruto AND bee at the same time in about 2 minutes. Before Kabuto "Took over" as well *Nagato already lost to Amaterasu, his summons also got destoyed by amaterasu.*

Every single time Itachi attacked Nagato he severely hurt him

Regarding CT, which, IMO, is Nagano’s only win con here.

1 . Yata mirror .

In DB 3 page 274-275 , it's stated it can negate astral objects / change it properties in accordance with facing attack to negate it

CT is a core that produces gravity forces (which is astral power ) to pull all things in it's range

Now , the gravity force will try to pull yata (will make a contact with it )

Yata will reflect this force , make it ineffective on it , then it won't be pulled

That's why " astral bodies.. physical.. material or ninjustu .. all lose their *effect "*

This one is iffy though

2 . Totsuka

While the core is early performed ( it take seconds to be surrounded by rocks )

Itachi can strike towards it ( he is faster than these rocks ) and the gravity will help him to reach it faster

The core itself has no durability feats , what makes it strong is the big number of rocks around it

Please let me know what you guys think, the only part i think is honestly truly debatable is the CT
@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask @Black zetsu @Aegon Targaryen @Paradise @TraderJoe @MaruUchiha @Mad Scientist

Reactions: Winner 8 | Disagree 1


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## Djomla (Oct 24, 2022)

Nagato.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Kage 1 | Disagree 1


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

TraderJoe said:


>


The best is always "Kabuto was controlling Nagato thats why he got blitzed"

Acting like when Nagato was in control of himself he didnt get blitzed either

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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

Djomla said:


> Nagato.


What makes you say that

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TraderJoe (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> The best is always "Kabuto was controlling Nagato thats why he got blitzed"
> 
> Acting like when Nagato was in control of himself he didnt get blitzed either


My favorite is “but but but…. Dust!”… I am always tempted to give them dust because they have basically conceded that all Itachi needs to do is produce some dust to solo Nagato.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Shazam (Oct 25, 2022)

Nagato (the solo king) wins low diff.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## ARGUS (Oct 25, 2022)

much easier to have those feats against nagato when hes occuppied in stomping bee and naruto 

in a 1v1, itachi stands no chance

Reactions: Winner 2


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

TraderJoe said:


> My favorite is “but but but…. Dust!”… I am always tempted to give them dust because they have basically conceded that all Itachi needs to do is produce some dust to solo Nagato.


The dust that stopped him from reacting to Naruto's rasenshuriken (while fatigued) but couldnt react to the Totsuka blade when he wasnt fatigued and was amped from absorbing an entire V2 mode of 8 tails chakra

Or the fact he is one of the better sensors in the show and with his rinnegan should be able to see chakra through dust - yet still got blitzed

Or the fact that Kabuto literally said the reason he got hit was because he "wasnt mobile enough" and nothing about the dust

Reactions: Winner 3


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Nagato (the solo king) wins low diff.


He got solod by the king though so how tf does he win this lowdif

Amaterasu GG
Totsuka GG
its CT or bust for Nagashit here


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## Quanta314159265 (Oct 25, 2022)

Is this you? Or at least someone posted it for you. You can check it out to know what others think. 



MalikethBlackBlade said:


> Who do you think wins and why?
> 
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Useful 1


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

ARGUS said:


> much easier to have those feats against nagato when hes occuppied in stomping bee and naruto
> 
> in a 1v1, itachi stands no chance


He wasnt preoccupied when he got blitzed by Amaterasu

Him being occupied with bee and Naruto (after he was amped) is irrelevant because 
1. He had his connected vision summons (they got blitzed and he was completely unaware btw)
2. He was able to react to Bee and Naruto's attacks without issue yet couldnt sense or dodge the Susanoo blade coming through and ripping his arms off his body
3. Him being blitzed by Totsuka had nothing to do with Naruto and Bee, he simply couldnt react

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

Quanta314159265 said:


> Is this you? Or at least someone posted it for you. You can check it out to know what others think.


Yeah i had posted this elsewhere so he must have gotten it from that, thanks for sharing ill check it out


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## ARGUS (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> He wasnt preoccupied when he got blitzed by Amaterasu


he wasnt trying to fight them, he was helping them there 
it was only once kabuto took control of him, was when he countered it 
he didnt get blitzed either though, since his chakra detection and built up sensing exceeded even KCM narutos 
in a battle he would just sense it and absorb the flames 


WinNo1929 said:


> Him being occupied with bee and Naruto (after he was amped) is irrelevant because
> 1. He had his connected vision summons (they got blitzed and he was completely unaware btw)


this is where kabutos usage of him is still an argument. he was too busy wanting to get the bijuus out of them to get back at obito and one up him 
this wont happen in a 1v1, 



WinNo1929 said:


> 2. He was able to react to Bee and Naruto's attacks without issue yet couldnt sense or dodge the Susanoo blade coming through and ripping his arms off his body


again, he was occuppied, he either lets go of naruto and bee and then kabutos plan gets put to a stop, or he deals with susanoo 
cant do both at the same time 
this would never happen in a 1v1 beause susanoo would just get absorbed and negged by preta 


WinNo1929 said:


> 3. Him being blitzed by Totsuka had nothing to do with Naruto and Bee, he simply couldnt react


him being crippled is blamed, but then again, in a 1v1 battle, itachi cant deal with CT, its why he needed naruto and bees help to bust the core so that he can target him 

again, this wont apply in a 1v1 battle 

so all the examples youre mentioning are solely possible because nagato was also dealing with 2 more opponents where each of them at Full power is on the same level as itachi

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Quanta314159265 (Oct 25, 2022)

Why do you think Nagato could sense while under Kabuto's full control, though?

Kabuto was wondering what kind of moves Nagato knew while fondling KCM Naruto. In chapter 580 we have more evidence that Kabuto didn't know about his edo's sensory prowess. He quite clearly set up Rinnegan kuchiyose to cover blindspots which would be largely unnecessary for an adept sensor like Nagato.

Also....Kabuto was the one who needed to multitask, not Nagato. SM Kabuto was the guy who got tagged by a Susanoo arrow in a 1v2 against the Uchiha bros. Even as six paths of pain, Nagato never needed to fight this many high-level opponents at once for "distraction" to become relevant.

Also also....Nagato did mentally react to Amaterasu by saying "I see..", and he has two mentally activated jutsus at his disposal. This suggests the possibility that Edos aren't programmed to counter their allies.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 25, 2022)

Itachi only wins against white hair nagato.
pull + susanoo absorb (yata+totsuka get absorbed too) + soul rip should settle it.


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

ARGUS said:


> he wasnt trying to fight them, he was helping them there
> it was only once kabuto took control of him, was when he countered it
> he didnt get blitzed either though, since his chakra detection and built up sensing exceeded even KCM narutos
> in a battle he would just sense it and absorb the flames


For starters, he was never trying to help them. He attempted several attacks against them including almighty pull and using his summons
He did get blitzed, him being able to sense something doesnt mean he can physically react to it. He got blitzed with amaterasu and fell off his bird and got half burnt to death. If we wasnt an Edo he would have died


ARGUS said:


> this is where kabutos usage of him is still an argument. he was too busy wanting to get the bijuus out of them to get back at obito and one up him
> this wont happen in a 1v1,


CT is still a finishing move - he wasnt holding back, and he literally TRIED TO KILL BE AND RIP OUT NARUTOS SOUL


ARGUS said:


> again, he was occuppied, he either lets go of naruto and bee and then kabutos plan gets put to a stop, or he deals with susanoo
> cant do both at the same time
> this would never happen in a 1v1 beause susanoo would just get absorbed and negged by preta


Again, he had shared vision which got blitzed and he didnt realise, and he didnt process that he got tagged with susanoo until after he got hit with it.
He has already shown the ability to multitask his abilities. He was using soul rip and Asura path again Bee and Naruto, and he showed he could absorb Narutos rasengan during this as well

So why couldnt he absorb Itachi's susanoo? is it because he got blitzed and didnt process the attack happening


ARGUS said:


> him being crippled is blamed, but then again, in a 1v1 battle, itachi cant deal with CT, its why he needed naruto and bees help to bust the core so that he can target him


He didnt say he couldnt do it without him, and re read my post where i adress CT


ARGUS said:


> again, this wont apply in a 1v1 battle


Not a counterargument because he got straight up blitzed and even Kabuto said he wasnt fast enough to do it.


ARGUS said:


> so all the examples youre mentioning are solely possible because nagato was also dealing with 2 more opponents where each of them at Full power is on the same level as itachi


He could deal with those two fine but was unable to combat Itachi

Nice damage control


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## Wolfgang (Oct 25, 2022)

Tsukuyomi GG/CT gg

50/50.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 25, 2022)

Nagato stomps.


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 25, 2022)

Wolfgang said:


> Tsukuyomi GG/CT gg
> 
> 50/50.


No proof Genjutsu would work on Nagato

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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> No proof Genjutsu would work on Nagato


What makes Nagato an exception?


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> What makes Nagato an exception?


Rinnegan

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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Rinnegan


Didnt Kakashi put Obito in a genjutsu

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## Wolfgang (Oct 25, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> No proof Genjutsu would work on Nagato



Sounds genjutsu worked

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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Didnt Kakashi put Obito in a genjutsu


No? When did this happen?

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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 25, 2022)

Wolfgang said:


> Sounds genjutsu worked


Worked on Pain not Nagato. Plus that was sound genjutsu Itachi uses visual genjutsu.

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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> No? When did this happen?


In Kamui him and Obito were using genjutsu against one another and then he said

"enough of these tricks im over it"

Reactions: Agree 2


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> In Kamui him and Obito were using genjutsu against one another and then he said
> 
> "enough of these tricks im over it"


Obito was using genjutsu on Kakashi

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## Ssj2Hokage (Oct 25, 2022)

It already happened and Itachi blitzed him.

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## Wolfgang (Oct 25, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Worked on Pain not Nagato. Plus that was sound genjutsu Itachi uses visual genjutsu.



Their vision is linked.

All genjutsu works on your five senses.





On top of this, Ocular genjutsu > Sound Genjutsu

whats more is that Tsukuyomi has its own rules as to how it can be broken.

Go back and read part 1 when Itachi pulled up to the Leaf with Kisame, he explained how Tsukuyomi can be countered.

I'm tried of linking The Tsukuyomi scan.

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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 25, 2022)

Wolfgang said:


> Their vision is linked.
> 
> All genjutsu works on your five senses.


Show a scan of Nagato being put in genjutsu. I’ll wait.


Wolfgang said:


> On top of this, Ocular genjutsu > Sound Genjutsu
> 
> whats more is that Tsukuyomi has its own rules as to how it can be broken.


If that’s the case why do you think Itachi didn’t use it when he fought Nagato? It’s clear it would’ve been useless.


Wolfgang said:


> Go back and read part 1 when Itachi pulled up to the Leaf with Kisame, he explained how Tsukuyomi can be countered l.


Irrelevant. Nagato is way stronger than Itachi.


Wolfgang said:


> I'm tried of linking The Tsukuyomi scan.


Sasuke literally showed that the Rinnegan can  counter even the strongest genjutsu (Infinite Tsukuyomi). It’s safe to say genjutsu is ineffective against a real Rinnegan user like Nagato. Not one of the paths like Pain.

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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Irrelevant. Nagato is way stronger than Itachi.


Doesnt mean he fits the criteria to break Tsukuyomi


YonkoDrippy said:


> Sasuke literally showed that the Rinnegan can  counter even the strongest genjutsu (Infinite Tsukuyomi). It’s safe to say genjutsu is ineffective against a real Rinnegan user like Nagato. Not one of the paths like Pain.


His susanoo blocked out the light which was manifested through his Rinnegan as well. It doesnt mean the Rinnegan negates visual genjutsu - because we know it only blocked out the light through his Susanoo, but Sasuke said that you can combat Rinnegan genjutsu with a Rinnegan

Nothing in the series points towards the Rinnegan being capable of negating visual genjutsu

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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Doesnt mean he fits the criteria to break Tsukuyomi
> 
> His susanoo blocked out the light which was manifested through his Rinnegan as well. It doesnt mean the Rinnegan negates visual genjutsu - because we know it only blocked out the light through his Susanoo, but Sasuke said that you can combat Rinnegan genjutsu with a Rinnegan



Black Zetsu literally says “his rinnegan can counter even this Jutsu?” His Susanoo has nothing to do with it. He only used it to protect Naruto from the genjutsu, not himself.


WinNo1929 said:


> Nothing in the series points towards the Rinnegan being capable of negating visual genjutsu


Except Sasuke showed that it does? He countered the strongest genjutsu. Infinite Tsukuyomi >>>>> Itachi’s Tsukuyomi. Nagato negs with his rinnegan


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Black Zetsu literally says “his rinnegan can counter even this Jutsu?” His Susanoo has nothing to do with it. He only used it to protect Naruto from the genjutsu, not himself.


The EXACT line before that is "the light isnt able to shine through the susanoo" and after that he says "his rinnegan must be able to fight off this jutsu


YonkoDrippy said:


> Except Sasuke showed that it does? He countered the strongest genjutsu. Infinite Tsukuyomi >>>>> Itachi’s Tsukuyomi. Nagato negs with his rinnegan


Infinite Tsukuyomi is different from a normal Tsukuyomi, for one, and two Sasuke's rinengan isnt the same as Nagato's

So you cant prove Nagato could counter Tsukuyomi

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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> The EXACT line before that is "the light isnt able to shine through the susanoo" and after that he says "*his rinnegan must be able to fight off this jutsu*


Exactly, so wtf are you talking about


WinNo1929 said:


> Infinite Tsukuyomi is different from a normal Tsukuyomi, for one, and two Sasuke's rinengan isnt the same as Nagato's


Doesn’t mean Nagato wouldn’t counter it as well. 


WinNo1929 said:


> So you cant prove Nagato could counter Tsukuyomi


You can’t prove genjutsu works on Nagato. Unless you can show a scan of Nagato getting caught in one

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## Halcyonite (Oct 25, 2022)

No point making these threads if its just gonna be a circle-jerk between Itachi fans with you not actually wanting any kind of discussion

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## Halcyonite (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Or the fact he is one of the better sensors in the show and with his rinnegan should be able to see chakra through dust - yet still got blitzed


btw this is wrong, it's been shown countless times that the Rinnegan can't see through opaque objects and smokescreens. When I say countless I'm not exaggerating, you'll see this happen once every chapter in the Naruto vs Pain fight and once in the Pain vs Jiraiya fight.

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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> btw this is wrong, it's been shown countless times that the Rinnegan can't see through opaque objects and smokescreens. When I say countless I'm not exaggerating, you'll see this happen once every chapter in the Naruto vs Pain fight and once in the Pain vs Jiraiya fight.


Fair point, however it doesnt detract from the fact he cant react to a Totsuka stab through the dust yet can react to a Rasenshuriken


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Exactly, so wtf are you talking about


Crosses out my point which is what i was talking about


YonkoDrippy said:


> Doesn’t mean Nagato wouldn’t counter it as well.


Nagato doesnt meet the conditions to break it


YonkoDrippy said:


> You can’t prove genjutsu works on Nagato. Unless you can show a scan of Nagato getting caught in one


You cant prove Kaguya one shots Iruka with ash bones unless you show a scan of Iruka getting hit with one


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## Quanta314159265 (Oct 25, 2022)

Rinnegan can't see through smokescreen (or not as well as sharingan) as Rinnegan Obito attempted to see through a dust cloud with sharingan

*Spoiler*: __ 








Clearly Totsuka blitz is faster than FRS but Nagato would be able to see it coming sooner with sensory power (while not under Kabuto control as I said in the earlier post). With that, he sensed chakra-buildup faster than KCM Naruto. He would then be able to repel the sword/susanoo itself with ST. You argued Itachi with intel could "totsuka the CT core" but Nagato with intel would also have ways to fight Itachi's jutsus.

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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

Fair point with the Obito scan, i agree with you 


Quanta314159265 said:


> Clearly Totsuka blitz is faster than FRS but Nagato would be able to see it coming sooner with sensory power (while not under Kabuto control as I said in the earlier post). With that, he sensed chakra-buildup faster than KCM Naruto. He would then be able to repel the sword/susanoo itself with ST. You argued Itachi with intel could "totsuka the CT core" but Nagato with intel would also have ways to fight Itachi's jutsus.


The issue isnt about whether or not he can see it coming, but whether he can effectively dodge it - thats the issue

He wasnt able to dodge or effectively counter all of Itachi's Jutsu - and if he wasnt an Edo he would have died several times.

The fact that he got stabbed is based on his mobility, not his lac of vision as Kabuto outlines, and if all it takes is a simple smokescreen to Totsuka blitz its still not in Nagato's favour


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## Quanta314159265 (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Fair point with the Obito scan, i agree with you
> 
> The issue isnt about whether or not he can see it coming, but whether he can effectively dodge it - thats the issue
> 
> ...



as I said, Nagato didn't have sensory power while he got Totsuka stabbed in canon, or anytime under Kabuto full control.

why don't you think shinra tensei is a counter to a stab attempt if Nagato could perceive it sooner with sensory power?

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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

Quanta314159265 said:


> as I said, Nagato didn't have sensory power while he got Totsuka stabbed in canon, or anytime under Kabuto full control.
> 
> why don't you think shinra tensei is a counter to a stab attempt if Nagato could perceive it sooner with sensory power?


Because he simply isnt fast enough

He was completely unaware his summons got negged too

Even if you want to say he counters it, sure, but its a 5 second interval which means his immobile body is a sitting duck for another stab, or amaterasu etc.

Not to mention lets say he defends the first blow, then Itachi throws down a bunch of smoke bombs - what is Nagato doing then.

His lack of Mobility will always cost him these kind of fights


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## Quanta314159265 (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> He was completely unaware his summons got negged too


You could argue he's "blitzed" by kunai disabling shared vision. but Kabuto being occupied by two perfect jinchurikis is a mitigating factor. See my earlier post.


WinNo1929 said:


> Even if you want to say he counters it, sure, but its a 5 second interval which means his immobile body is a sitting duck for another stab, or amaterasu etc.


A basic shinra tensei was able to send three boss toads hundreds of metres away. Why do you think Itachi can cover the distance+attempt another stab by the time ST can be used again? 

He can use animal path to block projectiles and activate preta path to absorb Amaterasu meanwhile. 

Also, hindered mobility doesn't mean he's immobile. He body-flicered behind Bee just after ST then dodged a claw swipe. He also moved towards KCM Naruto to drag his soul out before the latter could react to the invisible chameleon. He could fly with bird summon, move around with invisible chameleon or use asura rocket boots too.


WinNo1929 said:


> Not to mention lets say he defends the first blow, then Itachi throws down a bunch of smoke bombs - what is Nagato doing then.


As I said above Nagato doesn't need to be a sitting duck. He also has sensor power now to monitor Itachi's action from kilometers away.

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## MHA massive fan (Oct 25, 2022)

Nagato little to no contest

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## Halcyonite (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Fair point, however it doesnt detract from the fact he cant react to a Totsuka stab through the dust yet can react to a Rasenshuriken


That just goes to show that Totsuka > Rasenshuriken in speed

If Nagato saw the wind-up of Totsuka instead of just it hurtling towards him while he wasn't expecting an attack at that moment, that could have been the difference between getting sealed and the fight continuing. It's also implied his sensing wasn't active because Itachi had to INFORM Kabuto of the fact that Nagato was a sensor. 

Also, Itachi putting down a smokescreen himself wouldn't help, because then that would PROMPT Nagato to expect something coming. Whenever Naruto threw down a smokescreen, Pain braced himself. This smokescreen was a byproduct of the CT explosion, meaning Nagato had no reason to expect an attack to hurtle towards him at that exact moment. He also has no intel on Totsuka Blade.

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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> That just goes to show that Totsuka > Rasenshuriken in speed


Agreed


Halcyonite said:


> If Nagato saw the wind-up of Totsuka instead of just it hurtling towards him while he wasn't expecting an attack at that moment, that could have been the difference between getting sealed and the fight continuing. It's also implied his sensing wasn't active because Itachi had to INFORM Kabuto of the fact that Nagato was a sensor.


But nothing suggests he can react to that level of speed
Itachi didnt let Kabuto know that, he just said he has no ability to sense like that, it was Nagato who did it because Kabuto was surprised Itachi was able to sense that far


Halcyonite said:


> Also, Itachi putting down a smokescreen himself wouldn't help, because then that would PROMPT Nagato to expect something coming. Whenever Naruto threw down a smokescreen, Pain braced himself. This smokescreen was a byproduct of the CT explosion, meaning Nagato had no reason to expect an attack to hurtle towards him at that exact moment. He also has no intel on Totsuka Blade.


Disagree here, because by that same logic Nagato should have expected something through the dust already - their was no reason for him to lower his guard, nor can you prove that he
1) didnt expect an attack to hurdle towards him at that exact moment
2) has no intel on the Totsuka blade


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## Halcyonite (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> But nothing suggests he can react to that level of speed


It's unquantifiably higher, and there are already two hindrances (debatably three) on Nagato:
- Offguard hit
- Smokescreen
- An implication that he didn't switch on his sensory powers

So I think anyone who isn't biased can admit that this feat isn't that fair to use against Nagato




WinNo1929 said:


> Itachi didnt let Kabuto know that, he just said he has no ability to sense like that, it was Nagato who did it because Kabuto was surprised Itachi was able to sense that far


Kabuto wouldn't have reached his conclusion if he knew of Nagato's sensory powers. We also know that Nagato could sense him through a sensory barrier miles away, and could also monitor ALL of Amegakure. Think about it logically. If Nagato was capable of all of this, do you really think he was unable to sense a giant V4 Susanoo 10ft in front of him? It's obvious his sensing wasn't active.



WinNo1929 said:


> Disagree here, because by that same logic Nagato should have expected something through the dust already - their was no reason for him to lower his guard, nor can you prove that he
> 1) didnt expect an attack to hurdle towards him at that exact moment
> 2) has no intel on the Totsuka blade


It's not the same logic though is it, because the smokescreen wasn't directly placed by Itachi, therefore Nagato had no cue to expect an attack at that moment. It's perfectly reasonable that his guard was lowered considering he did not know what happened during that titanic explosion that included a TAILED BEAST BOMB. He may have been waiting for the smoke to clear, and it certainly looks like that.

1) That's pretty stupid to ask me to prove Nagato didn't expect it, considering it is literally laid out as a surprise attack. Itachi launched an attack under the guise of a smokescreen. It's not much of a surprise attack if it doesn't surprise your opponent. On top of that, Nagato was literally shocked when it hit him hence the "!", implying he did not expect it.

2) You have the positive claim that Nagato knows about Totsuka Blade. Nothing in the entire series suggests he knows about it, therefore I'm making a negative claim saying he has no intel on it. It's on you to fulfill the burden of proof.


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> It's unquantifiably higher, and there are already two hindrances (debatably three) on Nagato:
> - Offguard hit
> - Smokescreen
> - An implication that he didn't switch on his sensory powers
> ...


Except as i already established it is fair


Halcyonite said:


> Kabuto wouldn't have reached his conclusion if he knew of Nagato's sensory powers. We also know that Nagato could sense him through a sensory barrier miles away, and could also monitor ALL of Amegakure. Think about it logically. If Nagato was capable of all of this, do you really think he was unable to sense a giant V4 Susanoo 10ft in front of him? It's obvious his sensing wasn't active.


Kabuto never says he doesnt know Nagato's sensory abilities, he says he doesnt understand how Itachi sensed it, and was later corrected that he doesnt have those abilities, Nagato does.


Halcyonite said:


> It's not the same logic though is it, because the smokescreen wasn't directly placed by Itachi, therefore Nagato had no cue to expect an attack at that moment. It's perfectly reasonable that his guard was lowered considering he did not know what happened during that titanic explosion that included a TAILED BEAST BOMB. He may have been waiting for the smoke to clear, and it certainly looks like that.


Already established this as well, he has no reason to lower his guard in a moment where his vision is obscured and he is potentially vulnerable. He could have pushed the dust away too, but didnt


Halcyonite said:


> 1) That's pretty stupid to ask me to prove Nagato didn't expect it, considering it is literally laid out as a surprise attack. Itachi launched an attack under the guise of a smokescreen. It's not much of a surprise attack if it doesn't surprise your opponent. On top of that, Nagato was literally shocked when it hit him hence the "!", implying he did not expect it.


It isnt a surprise attack, the ! doesnt always mean you are taken abacked, it refers to a reaction - something Nagato only percieved once it hit him. He was unable to process the movement of the blade from the sword, or even the sound of the Susanoo


Halcyonite said:


> 2) You have the positive claim that Nagato knows about Totsuka Blade. Nothing in the entire series suggests he knows about it, therefore I'm making a negative claim saying he has no intel on it. It's on you to fulfill the burden of proof.


Which is irrelevant because even if you make a negative claim there is still an obligation for you to substantiate upon it - which is what proof of impossibility or an evidence of absence

Therefore, if you have nothing to base the argument that Nagato is not aware of the Totsuka blade it is a fallacious argument - especially considering Kabuto was controlling Nagato and he knows that Itachi killed Orochimaru with the Totsuka blade

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## TraderJoe (Oct 25, 2022)



Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Except as i already established it is fair


You absolutely didn’t




WinNo1929 said:


> Kabuto never says he doesnt know Nagato's sensory abilities, he says he doesnt understand how Itachi sensed it, and was later corrected that he doesnt have those abilities, Nagato does.


If he doesn’t know how Itachi got to his barrier, then that means he didn’t know of Nagato’s sensory powers.




WinNo1929 said:


> Already established this as well, he has no reason to lower his guard in a moment where his vision is obscured and he is potentially vulnerable. He could have pushed the dust away too, but didnt


Again you didn’t establish anything, you just stated your own interpretation of events. If you’re surrounded by smoke that wasn’t put in place for an attack, it’s extremely unlikely that you’re gonna be expecting an attack to fly out at that _exact _moment. He also has no knowledge of Totsuka Blade.



WinNo1929 said:


> It isnt a surprise attack, the ! doesnt always mean you are taken abacked, it refers to a reaction - something Nagato only percieved once it hit him. He was unable to process the movement of the blade from the sword, or even the sound of the Susanoo


It is if you’re launching an attack under the guise of a smokescreen. You’re attacking someone when they are unaware of your location. What you’re saying is super disingenuous.




WinNo1929 said:


> Which is irrelevant because even if you make a negative claim there is still an obligation for you to substantiate upon it - which is what proof of impossibility or an evidence of absence



This is completely wrong. If you make a claim and I challenge you on that claim to prove it, the burden is your responsibility. If I made a dumbass claim like Tenten using Chibaku Tensei, I would have to be the one to substantiate it. Your claim is less dumb, but there’s zero evidence to say Nagato has intel on something as obscure as the Totsuka Blade.



WinNo1929 said:


> Therefore, if you have nothing to base the argument that Nagato is not aware of the Totsuka blade it is a fallacious argument - especially considering Kabuto was controlling Nagato and he knows that Itachi killed Orochimaru with the Totsuka blade


Burden of Proof Fallacy

This is when someone with a positive claim attempts to make the other person provide proof against it instead. The burden is always on the positive claim and the person who has made the positive claim.

Here is another example of me challenging one of your positive claims: prove that Kabuto knew that Itachi sealed Orochimaru with the Totsuka Blade. Now are you still gonna attempt to lie and shift the burden onto me or are you actually gonna fulfill it? This and the last claim btw.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 25, 2022)

Itachi isn’t really on the level to take Nagato on alone, unless you’re talking about the manga version (crippled, malnutrition)

Edo or Living Nagato is commonly put against Madara, Hashirama’s rival, without thread closing


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## Halcyonite (Oct 25, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Itachi isn’t really on the level to take Nagato on alone, unless you’re talking about the manga version (crippled, malnutrition)
> 
> Edo or Living Nagato is commonly put against Madara, Hashirama’s rival, without thread closing


Let’s not go that far


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## Grinningfox (Oct 25, 2022)

Nagato is clearly stronger peak for peak than Itachi.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 25, 2022)

Halcyonite still accusing people of "lying" for no reason at all, lmao. I'd argue it would be weirder if Kabuto didn't know about the Sword of Totsuka and what it did to OG Oro, especially given he knew Hebi Sasuke harbored OG Oro and is almost certain to know Kabuto fight Sasuke no longer did. That, and he saw Totsuka in action through Kabuto...not hard to connect the dots, and Kabuto knew even weirder things he had less reason to know, like how and where Jiraiya died and how to summon Nagato.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sleepless (Oct 25, 2022)

Top of Akatsuki has always been Obito>Nagato>Pain>Itachi

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Bonly (Oct 25, 2022)

The manga already answered this for us 






*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TraderJoe (Oct 25, 2022)

Bonly said:


> The manga already answered this for us
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But but but… dust.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yagami Uchiha (Oct 25, 2022)

Let’s put it this way: if Izanami works on Nagato, he’s done for. If Izanami doesn’t work, then Nagato wins this high difficulty.

Edit: Itachi might take this after all since Nagato shouldn’t be able to resist Tsukuyomi.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Yagami Uchiha (Oct 25, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> In DB 3 page 274-275 , it's stated it can negate astral objects / change it properties in accordance with facing attack to negate it
> 
> CT is a core that produces gravity forces (which is astral power ) to pull all things in it's range
> 
> ...


This is a HUGE stretch. It doesn’t seem like something Kishimoto would do tbh.


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 25, 2022)

Yagami Uchiha said:


> This is a HUGE stretch. It doesn’t seem like something Kishimoto would do tbh.



Kishi showed six tails Kurama physically outmuscle gravity or Shinra Tensei.


And also reflect that gravity back onto Pain after he overpowered it.

So it's very much something that Kishi would do.


And Yata will definitely reflect Nagatos gravitational pull.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 25, 2022)

TraderJoe said:


> But but but… dust.


B-but he's got cool red eyes!!1!


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 25, 2022)

Nagato literally had Itachi beat as a crippled immobile version of himself while being nerfed yet further due to Kabuto openly stating he doesnt know how to properly use the Rinnegans abilities AND not knowing anything about Nagatos sensory ability

Nagato nearly slapped 3 Itachi level fighters at the same time

It is trash tier SethTP and YT comment section cope to suggest Itachi can do anything to the real Nagato

Nagato low diffs his ass, no fucking cap.

If we assume white haired Nagato has access to CT, that version is unironically too much for Itachi ffs.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 25, 2022)

Either Nagato extrene diff or draw. Forthe simple reason that Kishimoto mirrors Itachi to Sasuke and Nagato to Naruto and a fight between Naruto and Sasuke typically ends in a draw or extreme diff.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 25, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> You absolutely didn’t


Except i already did, there is still time that the blade would have had to pass through the smoke and Nagato was unable to react to it


Halcyonite said:


> If he doesn’t know how Itachi got to his barrier, then that means he didn’t know of Nagato’s sensory powers.


You keep ignoring my point, he thought Itachi worked it out on his OWN, which was why he surprised


Halcyonite said:


> Again you didn’t establish anything, you just stated your own interpretation of events. If you’re surrounded by smoke that wasn’t put in place for an attack, it’s extremely unlikely that you’re gonna be expecting an attack to fly out at that _exact _moment. He also has no knowledge of Totsuka Blade.


Few things here
1) You are arguing he would be offguard when he is in a vulnerable position. Not only can you not prove this whatsoever, it makes zero sense to lower your guard when you have *no idea when an attack will come*, rather you would brace yourself and prepare for any surprise attacks
2) Him not knowing about the Totsuka blade is irrelevant too, for starters


Halcyonite said:


> It is if you’re launching an attack under the guise of a smokescreen. You’re attacking someone when they are unaware of your location. What you’re saying is super disingenuous.


Just means Itachi has significantly better perception that Nagato does


Halcyonite said:


> This is completely wrong. If you make a claim and I challenge you on that claim to prove it, the burden is your responsibility. If I made a dumbass claim like Tenten using Chibaku Tensei, I would have to be the one to substantiate it. Your claim is less dumb, but there’s zero evidence to say Nagato has intel on something as obscure as the Totsuka Blade.


For starters thats false, and secondly him not knowing about the Totsuka blade is irrelevant


Halcyonite said:


> Burden of Proof Fallacy
> 
> This is when someone with a positive claim attempts to make the other person provide proof against it instead. The burden is always on the positive claim and the person who has made the positive claim.


No, you making a negative claim still means the burden is on you and you need to substantiate upon it. Negative or positive, whatever claim you make the burden lies upon you to prove it


Halcyonite said:


> Here is another example of me challenging one of your positive claims: prove that Kabuto knew that Itachi sealed Orochimaru with the Totsuka Blade. Now are you still gonna attempt to lie and shift the burden onto me or are you actually gonna fulfill it? This and the last claim btw.


Fair point, but him not knowing about the Totsuka blades properties is irrelevant here - because Kabuto still says that Nagato simply isnt mobile enough to dodge it, and never once blames the smoke, blames being unsure of what will happen, nothing of the sort

Therefore Itachi can just repeat exactly what happened and you have no way of proving he can react to an attack that Kabuto says he isnt mobile enough to dodge

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## Wolfgang (Oct 26, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Show a scan of Nagato being put in genjutsu. I’ll wait.



Don't need to.

Pain was put in genjutsu who is linked to Nagato.

They hear and see the same shit.



You'd have to be preety dense to deny this.




YonkoDrippy said:


> If that’s the case why do you think Itachi didn’t use it when he fought Nagato? It’s clear it would’ve been useless.



Because a battle doesn't go a certain way doesn't mean it can't. 

Maybe he didn't need to.



YonkoDrippy said:


> Irrelevant. Nagato is way stronger than Itachi.



Irrelevant. Tsukuyomi is a hax sharingan genjutsu with its own rules.



YonkoDrippy said:


> Sasuke literally showed that the Rinnegan can counter even the strongest genjutsu (Infinite Tsukuyomi). It’s safe to say genjutsu is ineffective against a real Rinnegan user like Nagato. Not one of the paths like Pain.



But he was caught in a genjutsu though.

Sasuek said that "Rinnegan genjutsu can probably counter Rinnegan genjutsu" in the same sense that a sharingan can counter a sharingan genjutsu.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 26, 2022)

Wolfgang said:


> Don't need to.
> 
> Pain was put in genjutsu who is linked to Nagato.
> 
> ...


Nagato and Pain aren’t the same person idiot.  If Jiraiya’s genjutsu worked on Nagato he wouldn’t have been able to bring out the 3 other paths of pain that killed him.


Wolfgang said:


> Because a battle doesn't go a certain way doesn't mean it can't.
> 
> Maybe he didn't need to.
> 
> ...


Nagato stomps Itachi. Deal with it

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Except i already did, there is still time that the blade would have had to pass through the smoke and Nagato was unable to react


Meaning that it's not a valid feat. If he's compromised in more than one way which he is, then that means the feat isn't valid

I'd be willing to bet money that if the roles were reversed and it was Itachi that had all of these hindrances, you and the others wouldn't let anyone forget it. I don't care if you try and deny it either 




WinNo1929 said:


> You keep ignoring my point, he thought Itachi worked it out on his OWN, which was why he surprised


You can't "work out" where someone is without having sensory powers, especially if they're miles away in a SENSORY BARRIER  If Kabuto didn't know how Itachi was able to pinpoint his location, then that simply means he was unaware of Nagato's god-tier sensory powers. I'm not ignoring a thing.



WinNo1929 said:


> ew things here
> 1) You are arguing he would be offguard when he is in a vulnerable position. Not only can you not prove this whatsoever, it makes zero sense to lower your guard when you have *no idea when an attack will come*, rather you would brace yourself and prepare for any surprise attacks
> 2) Him not knowing about the Totsuka blade is irrelevant too, for starters


You're actually ratting hard  If you are unaware of your opponent and then they suddenly stab you under the guise of smoke, that is what most people would call a surprise attack. This is supported by the fact that Nagato expresses fucking surprise.

Nagato not knowing he has Totsuka also matters a lot - if you don't know that your opponent has a super fast attack that seals whatever it pierces, you wouldn't be caught off guard by it.




WinNo1929 said:


> Just means Itachi has significantly better perception that Nagato does


Apples are a fruit. Therefore Itachi has significantly faster perception than Nagato does

That's how retarded your conclusion is




WinNo1929 said:


> For starters thats false, and secondly him not knowing about the Totsuka blade is irrelevant


Already addressed this




WinNo1929 said:


> No, you making a negative claim still means the burden is on you and you need to substantiate upon it. Negative or positive, whatever claim you make the burden lies upon you to prove it


I literally cited the fallacy directly and you're still in denial. Are you this afraid of being objectively wrong?

It's ALWAYS the positive claim that has the burden. ALWAYS.

You're unironically telling me that if you claimed Tenten can use Chibaku Tensei, I would have to be the one to provide evidence against, rather than you providing evidence for?

Please look up Hitchen's razor. You're dreadfully wrong here and there's no need for further discussion on this particular point.




WinNo1929 said:


> Fair point, but him not knowing about the Totsuka blades properties is irrelevant here - because Kabuto still says that Nagato simply isnt mobile enough to dodge it, and never once blames the smoke, blames being unsure of what will happen, nothing of the sort


If you believe Kabuto's assessment, then you're inadvertently conceding that Nagato can perceive Itachi and the Totsuka Blade. If he's ONLY blaming mobility, then that means Nagato's reactions aren't at fault. Which means he would react even better without the smokescreen in place and when he's onguard. Pick your poison


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Meaning that it's not a valid feat. If he's compromised in more than one way which he is, then that means the feat isn't valid


Cope harder, because its already established he was unable to react to the speed of the Totsuka and the man controlling him NEVER ONCE MENTIONED HIM BEING COMPROMISED

Simply "damn it.... Nagato isnt mobile enough"


Halcyonite said:


> I'd be willing to bet money that if the roles were reversed and it was Itachi that had all of these hindrances, you and the others wouldn't let anyone forget it. I don't care if you try and deny it either


Sounds like copium and headcanon to me


Halcyonite said:


> You can't "work out" where someone is without having sensory powers, especially if they're miles away in a SENSORY BARRIER  If Kabuto didn't know how Itachi was able to pinpoint his location, then that simply means he was unaware of Nagato's god-tier sensory powers. I'm not ignoring a thing.


Nope, youre ignoring that Kabuto though Itachi was the one who sensed him, hence why he was surprised because he knew Itachi shouldnt have been able to do that. 


Halcyonite said:


> You're actually ratting hard  If you are unaware of your opponent and then they suddenly stab you under the guise of smoke, that is what most people would call a surprise attack. This is supported by the fact that Nagato expresses fucking surprise.


He doesnt express surprise, he does a ! which can indicate a variety of things, but most importantly recognising the attack 

When it hits you  


Halcyonite said:


> Nagato not knowing he has Totsuka also matters a fucking lot - if you don't know that your opponent has a super fast attack that seals whatever it pierces, you wouldn't be caught off guard by it.


Prove he wouldnt be caught offguard by it when he canonically is too slow to react or dodge it, per the man literally controlling an AMPED version of him


Halcyonite said:


> Apples are a fruit. Therefore Itachi has significantly faster perception than Nagato does


Not an argument


Halcyonite said:


> That's how retarded your conclusion is


Cope


Halcyonite said:


> Already addressed this


Nope, you adressed nothing and made a baseless claim which id love for you to provide how Nagato is going to gain more speed in order to dodge the Totsuka blade as he was unable to do so beforehand

yet he could dodge the FRS which he also knew nothing about prior

Just shows Nagato's ceiling unfortunately - perhaps he needs another whole V2 cloak of Bijuu chakra to contend this time?


Halcyonite said:


> I literally cited the fallacy directly and you're still in denial. Are you this afraid of being objectively wrong?


Nope


Halcyonite said:


> It's ALWAYS the positive claim that has the burden. ALWAYS.


Nope, its actually the person who makes the claim, irrespective of whether its negative or positive to prove their claim. A quick google search on "your logical fallacy is:burden of proof" should help you out here


Halcyonite said:


> You're unironically telling me that if you claimed Tenten can use Chibaku Tensei, I would have to be the one to provide evidence against, rather than you providing evidence for?


Strawman and i never said this. If i claim tenten can use CT, its up to me to prove that claim - not you

I also addressed above him not knowing wasnt detrimental as he was unable to react/percieve it anyways


Halcyonite said:


> If you believe Kabuto's assessment, then you're inadvertently conceding that Nagato can perceive Itachi and the Totsuka Blade. If he's ONLY blaming mobility, then that means Nagato's reactions aren't at fault. Which means he would react even better without the smokescreen in place and when he's onguard.


What else does mobility mean? it has nothing to do with perception - he explicitly says he WAS.NOT.MOBILE.ENOUGH to react to the strike.

In fact, Kabuto literally FOCUSES ON HIS FEET IN THE PANEL and blames his lack of movement speed - this is the entire reason he sets up shared vision to help his lack of vision, per Kabuto's statements.

Still waiting on you proving he was off-guard and that he would react better without the smokescreen (you cant)

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Cope harder, because its already established he was unable to react to the speed of the Totsuka and the man controlling him NEVER ONCE MENTIONED HIM BEING COMPROMISED
> 
> Simply "damn it.... Nagato isnt mobile enough"


Mobility entails physical movement, which doesn't encompass perceptions and mental reactions

You can cope harder tbh 




WinNo1929 said:


> Sounds like copium and headcanon to me


Nah it's the truth. Y'all would pumping out disagrees left right and center if Itachi was this hindered and people were ignoring it




WinNo1929 said:


> Nope, youre ignoring that Kabuto though Itachi was the one who sensed him, hence why he was surprised because he knew Itachi shouldnt have been able to do that.


Kabuto is one of the most intelligent people in the entire series. Him thinking that in the first place indicates to us that he was unaware of Nagato's sensory powers.




WinNo1929 said:


> He doesnt express surprise, he does a ! which can indicate a variety of things, but most importantly recognising the attack
> 
> When it hits you


It most often indicates surprise, because it's always paired with a shocked face. Hence why it's called an *EXCLAMATION* mark you troglodyte  And given that it occurred alongside a surprise attack, that makes it all the more obvious




WinNo1929 said:


> Prove he wouldnt be caught offguard by it when he canonically is too slow to react or dodge it, per the man literally controlling an AMPED version of him


B-bu-but according to Kabuto, it wasn't his reactions that were the issue!! Weren't you the one to bring that up?




WinNo1929 said:


> Not an argument


Correct, it's a mockery of _your _argument




WinNo1929 said:


> Nope, you adressed nothing and made a baseless claim which id love for you to provide how Nagato is going to gain more speed in order to dodge the Totsuka blade as he was unable to do so beforehand
> 
> yet he could dodge the FRS which he also knew nothing about prior
> 
> Just shows Nagato's ceiling unfortunately - perhaps he needs another whole V2 cloak of Bijuu chakra to contend this time?


Never said he needed to dodge, all he needs are mental reactions to yeet Itachi's Susanoo the same distance as he did the Boss Toads. And according to Kabuto........ 



WinNo1929 said:


> Nope


Stay objectively incorrect then I guess




WinNo1929 said:


> Nope, its actually the person who makes the claim, irrespective of whether its negative or positive to prove their claim. A quick google search on "your logical fallacy is:burden of proof" should help you out here


How are you not embarrassed? 




WinNo1929 said:


> Strawman and i never said this. If i claim tenten can use CT, its up to me to prove that claim - not you
> 
> I also addressed above him not knowing wasnt detrimental as he was unable to react/percieve it anyways


It's an analogy forehead

@Sufex This one of the guys reppin your boy?




WinNo1929 said:


> What else does mobility mean? it has nothing to do with perception - he explicitly says he WAS.NOT.MOBILE.ENOUGH to react to the strike.


I can tell you didn't even read my responses  I was the one arguing that they have nothing to do with perception




WinNo1929 said:


> In fact, Kabuto literally FOCUSES ON HIS FEET IN THE PANEL


Thanks for helping me out pal!




WinNo1929 said:


> Still waiting on you proving he was off-guard and that he would react better without the smokescreen (you cant)


Already did


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Mobility entails physical movement, which doesn't encompass perceptions and mental reactions


Because it was stated he simply could not move fast enough to dodge the attack, not that he was "offguard" a claim you havent proven, or that "he would perform better without the smokescreen" a claim you also, havent backed up


Halcyonite said:


> You can cope harder tbh


Concession accepted


Halcyonite said:


> Nah it's the truth. Y'all would pumping out disagrees left right and center if Itachi was this hindered and people were ignoring it


Prove it


Halcyonite said:


> Kabuto is one of the most intelligent people in the entire series. Him thinking that in the first place indicates to us that he was unaware of Nagato's sensory powers.


Nope, wrong once again. He was shocked that he thought Itachi was capable of doing such a thing, and Itachi just says it was Nagato who did it, which prompts zero surprise from Kabuto. 


Halcyonite said:


> It most often indicates surprise, because it's always paired with a shocked face. Hence why it's called an *EXCLAMATION* mark you troglodyte  And given that it occurred alongside a surprise attack, that makes it all the more obvious


It is also used to show when someone reacts to something

Such as Obito in the 5KS when he reacted to and dodged Ay

Or when Nagato reacted to and dodge - oh wait


Halcyonite said:


> B-bu-but according to Kabuto, it wasn't his reactions that were the issue!! Weren't you the one to bring that up?


Already established he wasnt fast enough to dodge it - not that he couldnt see it whatsoever


Halcyonite said:


> Correct, it's a mockery of _your _argument


An argument i never made


Halcyonite said:


> Never said he needed to dodge, all he needs are mental reactions to yeet Itachi's Susanoo the same distance as he did the Boss Toads. And according to Kabuto........


Unfortunately thats fanfiction considering Nagato is unable to dodge the Totsuka blade, or the amaterasu, or his Susanoo arms, or his Kunai

Oof


Halcyonite said:


> Stay objectively incorrect then I guess


Not an argument


Halcyonite said:


> How are you not embarrassed?


Not an argument


Halcyonite said:


> It's an analogy forehead
> 
> @Sufex This one of the guys reppin your boy?


An analogy that is false


Halcyonite said:


> I can tell you didn't even read my responses  I was the one arguing that they have nothing to do with perception


And i already explained thats not an excuse for him simply not having the movement speed to dodge it


Halcyonite said:


> Thanks for helping me out pal!


Concession accepted considering you lack a rebuttal to that entire point that debunks your fanfiction Nagato being able to dodge Itachi's attacks under "better" circumstances when the circumstances themselves arent the issue per Kabuto - Nagato is.


Which is exactly why Kabuto wanted to set up shared vision - because Nagato wasnt fast enough. Itachi was the same guy who blitzed these summons btw



Halcyonite said:


> Already did


Nope, you actually didnt, and ducked the point earlier - feel free to prove that he was offguard as well as that he would react better without the smokescreen (which we explicitly know isnt the case per Kabuto's statement of blaming his lack of mobility regarding his speed, not his perception)

Ill gladly accept your concession here, as you cannot prove your claims, duck my points which are supported with evidence

It ultimately just ends up that the guy controlling an AMPED Nagato simply just says Nagato isnt fast enough to dodge Itachi's attacks, which we know considering he got blitzed 3 times by him

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Because it was stated he simply could not move fast enough to dodge the attack, not that he was "offguard" a claim you havent proven, or that "he would perform better without the smokescreen" a claim you also, havent backed up


Meaning that Kabuto didn't blame his perceptions  Double-edged sword there




WinNo1929 said:


> Concession accepted


I already accepted yours, no refunds




WinNo1929 said:


> Prove it


This entire argument is proof




WinNo1929 said:


> Nope, wrong once again. He was shocked that he thought Itachi was capable of doing such a thing, and Itachi just says it was Nagato who did it, which prompts zero surprise from Kabuto.


Kabuto making this conclusion indicates he wasn't aware of Nagato's sensory powers




WinNo1929 said:


> It is also used to show when someone reacts to something
> 
> Such as Obito in the 5KS when he reacted to and dodged Ay
> 
> Or when Nagato reacted to and dodge - oh wait


And more often than not they are paired with shocked/surprised faces

Hilarious how the only two examples you have are with a guy that wears a mask 




WinNo1929 said:


> Already established he wasnt fast enough to dodge it - not that he couldnt see it whatsoever


So what's the issue? Nagato can react to it with ST when it's not behind a smokescreen and where he's not offguard




WinNo1929 said:


> An argument i never made


You did. You tried to push the burden onto me when its the positive claim's burden. Concession accepted 




WinNo1929 said:


> Not an argument


You're right, it's a conclusion! A conclusion that you will gladly be wrong and continue arguing anyways to avoid losing a debate.




WinNo1929 said:


> An analogy that is false


You thought it was a strawman earlier dumbass 




WinNo1929 said:


> And i already explained thats not an excuse for him simply not having the movement speed to dodge it


You actually didn't



WinNo1929 said:


> Concession accepted considering you lack a rebuttal to that entire point that debunks your fanfiction Nagato being able to dodge Itachi's attacks under "better" circumstances when the circumstances themselves arent the issue per Kabuto - Nagato is.
> 
> 
> Which is exactly why Kabuto wanted to set up shared vision - because Nagato wasnt fast enough. Itachi was the same guy who blitzed these summons btw


The only thing I concede to is mistaking you for a normal functional human being that can actually engage in discourse without lying out their ass 



WinNo1929 said:


> Nope, you actually didnt, and ducked the point earlier - feel free to prove that he was offguard as well as that he would react better without the smokescreen (which we explicitly know isnt the case per Kabuto's statement of blaming his lack of mobility regarding his speed, not his perception)
> 
> Ill gladly accept your concession here, as you cannot prove your claims, duck my points which are supported with evidence
> 
> It ultimately just ends up that the guy controlling an AMPED Nagato simply just says Nagato isnt fast enough to dodge Itachi's attacks, which we know considering he got blitzed 3 times by him


There are multiple things that point towards him being off-guard that you're yet to address properly

I already conceded to you not being a human, dw  

CT gg kid


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## Black zetsu (Oct 26, 2022)

I'm a delusional , nagato solos , excuse my blindness
 
If I just watched fuckin canon ..

Reactions: Funny 3 | Lewd 1


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> So what's the issue? Nagato can react to it with ST when it's not behind a smokescreen and where he's not offguard


Prove it - still waiting on you to prove he can react to his attacks, something he was unable of doing 4 seperate times


Halcyonite said:


> You're right, it's a conclusion! A conclusion that you will gladly be wrong and continue arguing anyways to avoid losing a debate.


Yet you are unable to respond to and substantiate


Halcyonite said:


> You actually didn't


No i did because the guy who controlled him pointed it out - concession accepted


Halcyonite said:


> The only thing I concede to is mistaking you for a normal functional human being that can actually engage in discourse without lying out their ass


Concession accepted 


Halcyonite said:


> There are multiple things that point towards him being off-guard that you're yet to address properly
> 
> I already conceded to you not being a human, dw
> 
> CT gg kid


All this for you to fail that he can react to the Totsuka blade if he knew about it
Failed to prove he could react without a smokescreen
Failed to prove he was offguard

Yet i proved he wasnt fast enough to avoid getting blitzes, so its a repeat of the canon fight that occured between the two of them

Concession accepted

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Black zetsu said:


> I'm a delusional , nagato solos , excuse my blindness
> 
> If I just watched fuckin canon ..


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Prove it - still waiting on you to prove he can react to his attacks, something he was unable of doing 4 seperate times
> 
> Yet you are unable to respond to and substantiate
> 
> ...


Stay stubborn and wrong kid, you and your dysfunctional bandwagon

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Damn, Itachi's eyesight is so bad yet he can still blitz Nagato

Whats Nagato's excuse for not reacting to the Totsuka blade despite having bijuu level amps

Reactions: Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Damn, Itachi's eyesight is so bad yet he can still blitz Nagato
> 
> Whats Nagato's excuse for not reacting to the Totsuka blade despite having bijuu level amps


Imagine, it takes a Bijuu amount of chakra to restore Nagato to normal   stay mad


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Imagine, it takes a Bijuu amount of chakra to restore Nagato to normal   stay mad


Yet normal isnt enough to prevent getting solo'd


Still waiting on you to prove
- He was offguard
- He would react better without a smokescreen
- He would react to the Totsuka blade if he knew about it


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Yet normal isnt enough to prevent getting solo'd
> 
> 
> Still waiting on you to prove
> ...


Go nab a frontal lobe from the local morgue and then we can get started, 'kay?


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Go nab a frontal lobe from the local morgue and then we can get started, 'kay?


Concession accepted


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

I don't get it? Nagato loses to Itachi HARDER than Pain does....

First, it's obvious Toad Song is close range and only hit the 3 pain bodies nearby, tells us NOTHING about Rinnegan granting immunity to genjutsu. But even ignoring this, lets just go with the bad head canon argument that Rinnegan grants immunity to Tsukoyomi lol,

Chibaku Tensei? Amaterasu to break concentration, forced to use rinne-absorption, he will never get off CT and there are no other bodies to distract Itachi from doing that.

Nothing else besides Human Path soul rip could work, which... He couldn't touch through Yata.

Maybe Soul Dragon? But he would almost certainly die to amaterasu or totsuka before he got desperate enough to do that.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Kage 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Concession accepted


I mean, I just agreed to help you, but I guess you can't understand that without a frontal lobe  

Isn't it crazy how Itachi with back-up couldn't stop Nagato from using CT? Wild


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I don't get it? Nagato loses to Itach HARDER than Pain does....
> 
> First, it's obvious Toad Song is close range and only hit the 3 pain bodies nearby, tells us NOTHING about Rinnegan granting immunity to genjutsu. But even ignoring this, lets just go with the bad head canon argument that Rinnegan grants immunity to Tsukoyomi lol,
> 
> ...


Try and ask a Nagato fan why he couldnt dodge the Totsuka blade

They dont have an argument?

Exactly - he just gets blitzed again per canon. Nagato has had this community in a chokehold for years


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Try and ask a Nagato fan why he couldnt dodge the Totsuka blade
> 
> They dont have an argument?
> 
> Exactly - he just gets blitzed again per canon. Nagato has had this community in a chokehold for years


We only have arguments if you have the capacity to read them

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> I mean, I just agreed to help you, but I guess you can't understand that without a frontal lobe


Help me by 
- Proving he was offguard
- Proving he would have reacted to the Totsuka blade
- Prove he would react better without a smokescreen


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Help me by
> - Proving he was offguard
> - Proving he would have reacted to the Totsuka blade
> - Prove he would react better without a smokescreen


Did you get a frontal lobe yet?


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Prove he would react better without a smokescreen


This is actually hilarious though, you're unironically typing this


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> This is actually hilarious though, you're unironically typing this


Burden is on you, no matter how many lewd reactions you give me or bad reps

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Burden is on you, no matter how many lewd reactions you give me or bad reps


Hitchen's razor


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Hitchen's razor


Not really considering Kabuto blames his speed, not the smokescreen

But its not my job to fulfill your burden for you


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Not really considering Kabuto blames his speed, not the smokescreen
> 
> But its not my job to fulfill your burden for you


Hitchen's razor


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Hitchen's razor


Concession accepted

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Black zetsu (Oct 26, 2022)

Yeah this is the solo king looking at a fodder , so what 
 
Am I missing something, or maybe Sasuke doubled himself to match near dead and 0.004% of solo king's overpowering force

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Concession accepted


 No u




Black zetsu said:


> Yeah this is the solo king looking at a fodder , so what
> 
> Am I missing something, or maybe Sasuke doubled himself to match near dead and 0.004% of solo king's overpowering force


Lay off the shrooms Black zetsu

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Black zetsu (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Lay off the shrooms Black zetsu


It's " shrooms must Lay off me "

Chill , BZ had passed from here


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Black zetsu said:


> It's " shrooms must Lay off me "
> 
> Chill , BZ had passed from here


I think WinNo1929 must have stolen my frontal lobe, because I had an aneurism reading this

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

@Halcyonite 

Try to prove Nagato didnt get blitzed by SoloKing 4 Times challenge (impossible)


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> @Halcyonite
> 
> Try to prove Nagato didnt get blitzed by SoloKing 4 Times challenge (impossible)


1) he didn’t
2) he didn’t
3) he also didn’t
4) your dad

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> 1) he didn’t
> 2) he didn’t
> 3) he also didn’t
> 4) your dad


Prove it then


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Prove it then


1) Nagato sensed Ama on panel, meaning he reacted to it
2) Distracted by Naruto and Bee, had shared vision cut off so he was unable to see Itachi coming
3) Smokescreen + caught offguard
4) There was no 4th blitz


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> 1) Nagato sensed Ama on panel, meaning he reacted to it


Mentally reacted, physically couldnt


Halcyonite said:


> 2) Distracted by Naruto and Bee, had shared vision cut off so he was unable to see Itachi coming


Yep, shared vision got blitzed and was unable to sense the Susano arm coming when we already saw from above he could sense Ama.


Halcyonite said:


> 3) Smokescreen + caught offguard


Prove the smokescreen stopped him from reacting + that he was offguard


Halcyonite said:


> 4) There was no 4th blitz


Ama, Kunai, Totsuka, Susanoo


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> 2) Distracted by Naruto and Bee, *had shared vision cut off *so he was unable to see Itachi coming



Sorry, but Nagato wasn't distracted, he was looking at everywhere on the field all at once with his summons.

Naruto and Bee were already dismantled and waiting to die.


Two: Shared vision wasn't cut off, if it was then Nagato and also Kabuto would be seeing a black screen, Itachi aimed at the blindspots of the summons.

He didn't bust their eye balls.


Three: Ironically the person who bypassed Shared vision was still Itachi himself who then still blitzed Nagato.

It's a double feat for Itachi.


Kabuto even states this flat out, that what Itachi did was unavoidable and he couldn't dodge it.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Mentally reacted, physically couldnt


Most of Nagato’s resourceful abilities require mental activation only




WinNo1929 said:


> Yep, shared vision got blitzed and was unable to sense the Susano arm coming when we already saw from above he could sense Ama.


The shared vision didn’t get blitzed, Kabuto said Itachi threw his kunai from blindspots, meaning that they couldn’t see the kunai coming

When you’re preoccupied fighting two Itachi level fighters, it’ll be a hindrance keeping an eye out for the third one




WinNo1929 said:


> Prove the smokescreen stopped him from reacting + that he was offguard


What is the point of any character using any smokescreen then Win, please tell me. What makes it worse is that Nagato didn’t even see anyone specifically deploy this smokescreen to expect a strategy coming




WinNo1929 said:


> Ama, Kunai, Totsuka, Susanoo


I already explained why the Kunai wasn’t a blitz. Amaterasu is fine I guess, a physical blitz, but where Nagato shines are his perceptions. Totsuka is a blitz only with multiple extraneous variables, and Susanoo hit due to distractions


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Sorry, but Nagato wasn't distracted, he was looking at everywhere on the field all at once with his summons.
> 
> Naruto and Bee were already dismantled and waiting to die.


He was, considering that Kabuto was unveiling his whole strategy of ripping out their souls and storing them in Jigokudo. He was SPECIFICALLY focused on the 8 and 9 tails, meaning he was not currently inputting orders to deal with Itachi.

Like I said, if the roles were reversed and the three were ganging up on Itachi, you guys wouldn't dismiss the fact that Naruto and Bee were distractors




Asura barracuda said:


> Two: Shared vision wasn't cut off, if it was then Nagato and also Kabuto would be seeing a black screen, Itachi aimed at the blindspots of the summons.
> 
> He didn't bust their eye balls.


It literally shows their eyeballs covered in Kunai, and we're given no timeframe for when Itachi blinded them. It could've been simultaneous




Asura barracuda said:


> Three: Ironically the person who bypassed Shared vision was still Itachi himself who then still blitzed Nagato.
> 
> It's a double feat for Itachi.


It's not a blitz because Nagato wasn't even focusing on Itachi




Asura barracuda said:


> Kabuto even states this flat out, that what Itachi did was unavoidable and he couldn't dodge it.


because of the circumstances which Kabuto literally DETAILS in the same page you're quoting. How can you quote a sentence and then ignore the rest of the context provided alongside it?


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> He was considering Kabuto was unveiling his whole strategy of ripping out their souls and storing them in Jigokudo. He was SPECIFICALLY focused on the 8 and 9 tails, meaning he was not currently inputting orders to deal with Itachi.
> 
> Like I said, if the roles were reversed and the three were ganging up on Itachi, you guys wouldn't dismiss the fact that Naruto and Bee were distractors for Itachi




Huh?

Do you know what Multitasking is?


Shared vision gives you live constant feedback of what's going on around you.

So there's no such thing as focusing on someone, the other eyes are still constantly giving feedback.


Nagato was seeing and talking to Konan although Yahiko wasn't doing anything, but Nagato still had live feed of what was going on.


So using multi tasking as some evidence of being off guard or focusing on an opponent doesn't work.

The eyes were still actively looking at the open battlefield, that's what Kabuto positioned them for.

He even says he does this because of Itachi thinking it would be enough to alert him of when Itachi arrives or does something.

It clearly failed.





Halcyonite said:


> It literally shows their eyeballs covered in Kunai, and we're given no timeframe for when Itachi blinded them. It could've been simultaneous



The manga states Itachi singlehandedly aimed at all their blind spots.


That's where all those Kunais are lodged, they're not thrown there in a brute manner, that was all precise.


When Shared Vision was actually cut off we see that Kabuto couldn't see anything anymore, we see that everything is black when he loses connection.





Halcyonite said:


> It's not a blitz because Nagato wasn't even focusing on Itachi




Focusing argument doesn't work, shared vision was statistically placed to monitor the open field which they were.

So anything that moved was directly being fed to Nagato and Kabuto.

So the focusing argument doesn't work when it comes to shared vision.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Huh?
> 
> Do you know what Multitasking is?


Just because people have the ability to multitask, that doesn't mean fighting one person is as easy as fighting three people. That's a pretty strange assertion to make.

No matter how you look at it, a 3v1 is an unfair fight.




Asura barracuda said:


> Shared vision gives you live constant feedback of what's going on around you.
> 
> So there's no such thing as focusing on someone, the other eyes are still constantly giving feedback.


But there's no feedback to gain if Itachi had gotten rid of shared vision via blindspots before he made his big move. That's literally the POINT of his strategy.




Asura barracuda said:


> Nagato was seeing and talking to Konan although Yahiko wasn't doing anything, but Nagato still had live feed of what was going on.
> 
> 
> So using multi tasking as some evidence of being off guard or focusing on an opponent doesn't work.


You're trying to equate a conversation with an ally with 3 people trying to kill him in hard-to-predict ways. I don't think I need to tell you why this isn't accurate.



Asura barracuda said:


> The eyes were still actively looking at the open battlefield, that's what Kabuto positioned them for.
> 
> He even says he does this because of Itachi thinking it would be enough to alert him of when Itachi arrives or does something.
> 
> It clearly failed.


Itachi had blinded them so Nagato wouldn't see him coming. This is what happened:

Bee tries to save Naruto. Shared Vision spots Bee. Nagato is aware. Nagato catches Bee.
Itachi saw all of this unfold ^^^
Itachi takes out shared vision from blindspots. Itachi can now attack without alerting Nagato. Itachi successfully saved Naruto and Bee.




Asura barracuda said:


> The manga states Itachi singlehandedly aimed at all their blind spots.
> 
> 
> That's where all those Kunais are lodged, they're not thrown there in a brute manner, that was all precise.
> ...


Nope. It doesn't say Itachi aimed it at their blind spots. It says he . This is supported by the fact that he's throwing curved Kunai in the panel, meaning he's throwing it from a point where the shared vision can't see him - AKA, a blindspot.




Asura barracuda said:


> Focusing argument doesn't work, shared vision was statistically placed to monitor the open field which they were.
> 
> So anything that moved was directly being fed to Nagato and Kabuto.
> 
> So the focusing argument doesn't work when it comes to shared vision.


It does when Itachi removed said shared vision in order to execute an attack, and given how efficient we know Itachi to be, it's entirely likely he did this strategy fluidly and near-simultaneously, allowing little room for Kabuto and Nagato to clock what happened

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Mujiefujie (Oct 26, 2022)

Nagato wins. @Aegon Targaryen  didn't I see a post like this a couple of weeks back?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Mujiefujie (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Bee tries to save Naruto. Shared Vision spots Bee. Nagato is aware. Nagato catches Bee.
> Itachi saw all of this unfold ^^^
> Itachi takes out shared vision from blindspots. Itachi can now attack without alerting Nagato. Itachi successfully saved Naruto and Bee.


Oof I never thought about this lol. Itachi was watching and analysing how shared vision was being operated. Hence, why he had to blind his summons. Which goes to show he can't blitz him with shared vision being in play, even then Itachi didn't Totsuka him before he launched CT.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 26, 2022)

Mujiefujie said:


> Nagato wins. @Aegon Targaryen  didn't I see a post like this a couple of weeks back?



That would make two of us


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## Serene Grace (Oct 26, 2022)

Chibaku tensei gg


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Serene Grace said:


> Chibaku tensei gg



In response, Itachi Amaterasus. Does Nagato burn to death to continue using CT or interrupt it to use rinne-absorption?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Serene Grace (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> In response, Itachi Amaterasus. Does Nagato burn to death to continue using CT or interrupt it to use rinne-absorption?


Nagato just negs that garbage with ST or Preta


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## Serene Grace (Oct 26, 2022)

Also what is the proof that using anothet path during CT will cancel it out? Nagato has already shown he can use multiple paths simutaneously(ala the bee and naruto fight)


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Serene Grace said:


> Nagato just negs that garbage with ST or Preta



Absolutely, but he has to stop using CT to do that as it takes all of his attention.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 3


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Serene Grace said:


> Also what is the proof that using anothet path during CT will cancel it out? Nagato has already shown he can use multiple paths simutaneously(ala the bee and naruto fight)


Specifically not CT or Shinra Tensei, both require he stop doing everything else at multiple points. They are his all or nothing moves.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Serene Grace (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Specifically not CT or Shinra Tensei, both require he stop doing everything else at multiple points. They are his all or nothing moves.


Nah you made that up, the only restrictions he had with CT was when he utilizes them through the paths, there is 0 evidence that suggests he cant use other paths during CT

Its funny though because you say Amaterasu would be a good counter, and yet none od that was actually true when Itachi fought it in canon. Always cute to read itachi fanfic once in a while

Reactions: Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Serene Grace said:


> Nah you made that up, the only restrictions he had with CT was when he utilizes them through the paths, there is 0 evidence that suggests he cant use other paths during CT
> 
> Its funny though because you say Amaterasu would be a good counter, and yet none od that was actually true when Itachi fought it in canon. Always cute to read itachi fanfic once in a while



Using PIS as your argument for something is... Beyond terrible.

Give me one panel, one time anywhere, where he is doing anything else, as PAIN OR NAGATO, while using either ability. Please.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 26, 2022)

@Serene Grace The burden of proof is on you here. Prove Nagato can use other jutsu while using Chibaku Tensei.  

@Hyugadoobadoo Amaterasu likely can't handle Chibaku Tensei. Itachi said it would require his, Naruto's, and Bee's strongest long range jutsu to destroy the core.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Serene Grace The burden of proof is on you here. Prove Nagato can use other jutsu while using Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> @Hyugadoobadoo Amaterasu likely can't handle Chibaku Tensei. Itachi said it would require his, Naruto's, and Bee's strongest long range jutsu to destroy the core.



I am not saying he uses Amaterasu to break up Chibaku Tensei, I am saying he targets Nagato when Nagato goes to use Chibaku Tensei, since it's a slow ability. Either die to Amaterasu, or interrupt CT to use rinne-absorption.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I am not saying he uses Amaterasu to break up Chibaku Tensei, I am saying he targets Nagato when Nagato goes to use Chibaku Tensei, since it's a slow ability. Either die to Amaterasu, or interrupt CT to use rinne-absorption.



What makes CT a slow ability? 

Nagato can also probably complicate things by sending Itachi far away with his gravitational push, then use CT to suck him in from a distance.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What makes CT a slow ability?
> 
> Nagato can also probably complicate things by sending Itachi far away with his gravitational push, then use CT to suck him in from a distance.



By all demonstrations? It's a slow but inevitable power that pulls everything in, but they had ample time to launch attacks both at CT when being sucked in at from the surface of CT (9 tails) when waiting to be pulled in. Lots of attack opportunities.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Using PIS as your argument for something is... Beyond terrible.
> 
> Give me one panel, one time anywhere, where he is doing anything else, as PAIN OR NAGATO, while using either ability. Please.


It’s true that we haven’t seen him do it, but Nagato has only used CT once while other Paths were available. Pain doesn’t count because Tendo is only capable of the Deva Path anyways.

A precedent has been set for Nagato being able to use all Paths simultaneously - I don’t see why Nagato wouldn’t be able to use something like Preta Path while using CT (which would only HELP him mind you, by giving him more chakra). Not that he necessarily needs more chakra to do CT as an Edo.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> It’s true that we haven’t seen him do it, but Nagato has only used CT once while other Paths were available. Pain doesn’t count because Tendo is only capable of the Deva Path anyways.
> 
> A precedent has been set for Nagato being able to use all Paths simultaneously - I don’t see why Nagato wouldn’t be able to use something like Preta Path while using CT (which would only HELP him mind you, by giving him more chakra). Not that he necessarily needs more chakra to do CT as an Edo.



...Itachi is the Edo not Nagato. And it matters immensely because he would never get the chance to use CT. He has no evidence of being able to do it, and explicit evidence of not being able to in other cases.

Itachi wins easier than he would against Pain.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I am not saying he uses Amaterasu to break up Chibaku Tensei, I am saying he targets Nagato when Nagato goes to use Chibaku Tensei, since it's a slow ability. Either die to Amaterasu, or interrupt CT to use rinne-absorption.


If it was that simple, why didn’t Itachi suggest it in canon? You’re using the logic of “well we didn’t see Nagato use CT and one other Path” to say it can’t happen. I’ll use that against you and say Itachi not burning Nagato with Amaterasu during CT means it’s either out-of-character for him or Itachi figured that it wouldn’t work after seeing the Preta Path in action.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Itachi is the Edo not Nagato.


Doesn’t really matter if we’re applying Edo feats. Alive Nagato pre-emaciation is featless so I don’t give a darn




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> And it matters immensely because he would never get the chance to use CT. He has no evidence of being able to do it, and explicit evidence of not being able to in other cases.


Even though Nagato got the chance to do it in canon while Itachi had back-up. Nice.

you know, it’s never even stated that Chibaku Tensei takes that long. When Nagato uses it against the trio, they got pulled up almost immediately.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Itachi wins easier than he would against Pain.


This is just wrong


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> If it was that simple, why didn’t Itachi suggest it in canon? You’re using the logic of “well we didn’t see Nagato use CT and one other Path” to say it can’t happen. I’ll use that against you and say Itachi not burning Nagato with Amaterasu during CT means it’s either out-of-character for him or Itachi figured that it wouldn’t work after seeing the Preta Path in action.




You are teetering right on the edge of bad faith arguments.

We can say it's more likely Nagato cannot do that as we have never seen him do it AND we have seen explicit examples of all of his bodies collapsing as Pain when attempting those high power abilities.

Itachi simply not using Amaterasu against Nagato tells us nothing besides that he didn't use it. By this logic you are implying he simply CAN'T use Amaterasu against Nagato. Not because of preta, or ST, but because he didn't in the fight. It's a beyond shit argument.

So you are at the point where your argument is incredibly dumb or bad faith. Please be careful.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Kage 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> By all demonstrations? It's a slow but inevitable power that pulls everything in, but they had ample time to launch attacks both at CT when being sucked in at from the surface of CT (9 tails) when waiting to be pulled in. Lots of attack opportunities.



It isn't the fastest jutsu ever, but even if it's "slow", the fact remains that Itachi needed help to survive it even with all the time he had to deal with it.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It isn't the fastest jutsu ever, but even if it's "slow", the fact remains that Itachi needed help to survive it even with all the time he had to deal with it.




Because he didn't target Nagato's face with Amaterasu.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Because he didn't target Nagato's face with Amaterasu.



Nagato can pre-empt Amaterasu. He can sense it, dispel (or potentially absorb) it, and his jutsu seems to have even less lag time.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nagato can pre-empt Amaterasu. He can sense it, dispel (or potentially absorb) it, and his jutsu seems to have even less lag time.



ABSOLUTELY BUT HE HAS TO INTERRUPT CT TO DO SO. I AM NOT SAYING AMATERASU BEATS NAGATO. I AM SAYING CT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO USE AGAINST EDO ITACHI.

I have repeated this too many times in this conversation now.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1 | Dislike 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> ABSOLUTELY BUT HE HAS TO INTERRUPT CT TO DO SO. I AM NOT SAYING AMATERASU BEATS NAGATO. I AM SAYING CT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO USE AGAINST EDO ITACHI.



Why are you yelling? 

Anyhow, it's not impossible to use. I already proposed a strategy that makes it easy and safe to get off. Nagato just needs to create distance, which he can easily do with a gravitational repulsive blast that sends Itachi across the battlefield or possibly raising dust with Asura's cannons and getting away himself in his Chameleon.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> You are teetering right on the edge of bad faith arguments.


So one rule for me and another for you?



Hyugadoobadoo said:


> We can say it's more likely Nagato cannot do that as we have never seen him do it AND we have seen explicit examples of all of his bodies collapsing as Pain when attempting those high power abilities


CST and CT are not the same thing.

The former is an ability that literally _shortens his lifespan _and is an dangerously amplified version of his standard technique. Whereas when he used CT, a standard Rinnegan ability, he was on death’s doorstep and low on chakra. Konan even says that using CT is an issue of chakra-quantity, not that it has some adverse effect like CST. You’re applying the requirements and consequences of CST to CT.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Itachi simply not using Amaterasu against Nagato tells us nothing besides that he didn't use it. By this logic you are implying he simply CAN'T use Amaterasu against Nagato. Not because of preta, or ST, but because he didn't in the fight. It's a beyond shit argument.


I actually didn’t say that at all.

If you use the eyes God gave you to read what I wrote properly, I said that Itachi likely opted not to because he saw the Preta Path in action. And like I said, it’s an assumption that he can’t use another Path in addition to CT. You tried to call my argument “bad faith”, but yours is speculative. Based on what we saw Nagato was capable of, the narrative is stacked against you.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So you are at the point where your argument is incredibly dumb or bad faith. Please be careful.


Are we upset that someone challenged your shitty assumption?


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> So one rule for me and another for you?
> 
> 
> CST and CT are not the same thing.
> ...



No. And this is the last time I will be responding since you clearly can't take this seriously.

Shortening lifespan or not is not relevant at all to this conversation, and bringing it up is a misdirection, he isn't showed using his higher end techniques simultaneous to each other. By failing to provide proof otherwise and constantly attempting to redirect the argument away from this is a bad faith argument. Glad I had to explain that to you.

"Itachi opted not to probably because of my headcanon reason". Is a bad faith argument. In case you weren't aware.

You have challenged nothing besides the limits of my civility towards you.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1 | Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> still waiting on you to prove he can react to his attacks


Bruh White haired Nagato was able to sense Amaterasu (itachis fastest attack) so far ahead of time the man could verbally and physically warn Naruto about it

Its asinine to argue the real Nagato cant react to Itachi when he did this on panel casually


WinNo1929 said:


> the guy who controlled him pointed it out


The guy who controlled him also stated numerous times he had no idea what nagatos capabilities were and severely nerfed him as a result

And even then Nagato was still finessing 3 Itachi level fighters at the same time and would have literally clap diffed Itachi if the dude was solo

Without 2 Jins there to back him up, Itachis fodder to instant CT spam which Nagato can do easily


WinNo1929 said:


> you to fail that he can react to the Totsuka blade


Ama > Enton = Susanoo striking speed per direct feats and statements

White haired Nagato could sense and shit on Amaterasu eons before it was fired

Even if you wanna believe Nagato is too slow to physically do anything to Susanoo, which is asinine, thats made irrelevant when his sensory ability is added to the equation which shits on Itachis best speed feats in a 1:1 comparison even in the hands of a nerfed Nagato

Itachi arguments on life support as always when it comes to this matchup

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Why are you yelling?
> 
> Anyhow, it's not impossible to use. I already proposed a strategy that makes it easy and safe to get off. Nagato just needs to create distance, which he can easily do with a gravitational repulsive blast that sends Itachi across the battlefield or possibly raising dust with Asura's cannons and getting away himself in his Chameleon.



"I have repeated this too many times in this conversation now."

Do you like talking to a wall? How many times do you feel okay being led in a circle repeating the same things to people who think that's winning a conversation?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> "I have repeated this too many times in this conversation now."
> 
> Do you like talking to a wall? How many times do you feel okay being led in a circle repeating the same things to people who think that's winning a conversation?



Well, you were conversing with other people, not me. Their opinions aren't mine and mine aren't theirs. 

No, but you're the one who ignored my points, not the other way around.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Well, you were conversing with other people, not me. Their opinions aren't mine and mine aren't theirs.
> 
> No, but you're the one who ignored my points, not the other way around.




Okay. I will humor this. You think Nagato is knocking Itachi all the way out of line of sight with ST but still in range of CT?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 26, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Bruh White haired Nagato was able to sense Amaterasu (itachis fastest attack) so far ahead of time the man could verbally and physically warn Naruto about it



True.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Its asinine to argue the real Nagato cant react to Itachi when he did this on panel casually
> 
> The guy who controlled him also stated numerous times he had no idea what nagatos capabilities were and severely nerfed him as a result



Facts.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And even then Nagato was still finessing 3 Itachi level fighters at the same time



This never happened. Nagato got mid diffed at worst when all three joined forces.



WorldsStrongest said:


> and would have literally clap diffed Itachi if the dude was solo



Nope, mid-high diffed and he'd need CT.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Without 2 Jins there to back him up, Itachis fodder to instant CT spam which Nagato can do easily



See above.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Ama > Enton = Susanoo striking speed per direct feats and statements



Amaterasu is Enton. You mean Kagutsuchi, which is a separate jutsu from Amaterasu - Enton is just the element they share. Secondly, no feats or statements actually say that; Totsuka, unlike Amaterasu, is actually a threat to Nagato, which implies it could be faster.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> No. And this is the last time I will be responding since you clearly can't take this seriously


Good, your responses have been pathetic. Your attempts at patronising and insulting me show that you don't have much faith in your own arguments 




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Shortening lifespan or not is not relevant at all to this conversation, and bringing it up is a misdirection, he isn't showed using his higher end techniques simultaneous to each other.


You're lumping them together because "muh they are BIG KABOOM!" That is LITERALLY your logic 

It's not misdirection, you're committing an association fallacy because they're both "higher-end techniques" despite me saying that they both have had different requirements, different circumstances when used, and different consequences. The only common theme behind them is that they're under the same Path. That's it.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> By failing to provide proof otherwise and constantly attempting to redirect the argument away from this is a bad faith argument. Glad I had to explain that to you.


You said that Nagato can't use CT and any other Path simultaneously. I disagreed and gave evidence for him demonstrating such abilities on a lower scale, and said that you were applying CST variables to CT. You failed to rebut this.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> "Itachi opted not to probably because of my headcanon reason". Is a bad faith argument. In case you weren't aware.


If Itachi literally TOLD us that the best option was them all working together rather than him using Amaterasu on Nagato, what does that fucking tell us? It tells us that Itachi didn't consider your headcanon strategy because it's not a good strategy, to begin with.

You're the one using headcanon to find a way for Itachi to worm his way out of an unwinnable scenario. If Nagato uses Chibaku Tensei, it's ggs. Amaterasu is absorbed and merely nourishes Nagato while he continues to cast CT.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> You have challenged nothing besides the limits of civility towards you


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## Quanta314159265 (Oct 26, 2022)

There’s no guarantee Itachi could even aim that accurately with ama while under chibaku tensei. They are implied to have trouble with accuracy of their projectiles and the wise man’s solution was to take advantage of the gravity of the core. Nagato could even hop inside chameleon or just use summoning meat shield to block Amaterasu, assuming CT somehow disables all other paths. It’s a shame Nagato’s versatile moveset doesn’t inspire as much creativity as the solo king  u_u

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Okay. I will humor this. You think Nagato is knocking Itachi all the way out of line of sight with ST but still in range of CT?



Well, yes, but he doesn't necessarily have to blast Itachi out of line-of-sight, just out of Amaterasu range. Chibaku Tensei can swallow entire mountains, so distance isn't a problem anyway.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Quanta314159265 said:


> There’s no guarantee Itachi could even aim that accurately with ama while under chibaku tensei. They are implied to have trouble with accuracy of their projectiles and the wise man’s solution was to take advantage of the gravity of the core. Nagato could even hop inside chameleon or just use summoning meat shield to block Amaterasu, assuming CT somehow disables all other paths. It’s a shame Nagato’s versatile moveset doesn’t inspire as much creativity as the solo king  u_u


IIRC Deva Path hid behind a tree while casting CT (can't remember if this is manga or anime), I don't see why Chameleon is out of the equation

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Well, yes, but he doesn't necessarily have to blast Itachi out of line-of-sight, just out of Amaterasu range. Chibaku Tensei can swallow entire mountains, so distance isn't a problem anyway.



..What do you think the range of Amaterasu is? I will give you a hint. Gamers know it as LOS.

Sorry. I will tone it down. Some people on here frustrate me when they can't have productive conversations.

Amaterasu is basically a hit scan, LOS ability with like a 1 or 2 frame wind up. Distance actually favors Itachi because Amaterasu doesn't have travel time except for like the last inch of travel. It appears right in front of the target. Knocking Itachi further away makes Amaterasu a more effective counter.

Chameleon does nothing because MS can see chakra.


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## Quanta314159265 (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Amaterasu is basically a hit scan, LOS ability with like a 1 or 2 frame wind up. Distance actually favors Itachi because Amaterasu doesn't have travel time except for like the last inch of travel. It appears right in front of the target. Knocking Itachi further away makes Amaterasu a more effective counter.


Databook says it has a finite range. Sasuke jumped towards Danzo just for an Amaterasu shot. Also there would be aiming issues which you never addressed. 


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Chameleon does nothing because MS can see chakra.


Feel free to explain why no one in the trio react to the chameleon until Nagato opened its mouth for a shinra tensei.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Okay. I will humor this. You think Nagato is knocking Itachi all the way out of line of sight with ST but still in range of CT?


D...Do you think Nagato CANT do this?

Do you seriously think Nagato cant knock Itachi out of Amaterasus effective range but still keep him within CTS effective range?

Kiddo...

Fucking LOOK at the AoE of CTs pull even when used by the weaker Pain who is FURTHER nerfed on top of that 



But naw you rite

Im sure Amaterasu can be used further than that right

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> D...Do you think Nagato CANT do this?
> 
> Do you seriously think Nagato cant knock Itachi out of Amaterasus effective range but still keep him within CTS effective range?
> 
> ...




It's crazy because all of this is in line of sight.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> You said that Nagato can't use CT and any other Path simultaneously.


I mean..Technically he already showed he can use multiple paths while using CT as far back as the pain arc

When he used CT in the Pain arc he was using it through Tendo, and in order to even have a Tendo that means hes using the Gedo path to animate the body  

Bam 2 paths in tandem right there

Reactions: Like 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> It's crazy because all of this is in line of sight.


Once CT has cleared all the obstacles and sealed Itachi inside it it sure is champ 

Good chat

Glad you so quickly exposed yourself as a waste of air

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Chameleon does nothing because MS can see chakra.


Itachi wasn't able to see the chameleon when it would have been convenient to. He could've avoided Naruto and Bee's near-death way earlier on.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Itachi wasn't able to see the chameleon when it would have been convenient to. He could've avoided Naruto and Bee's near-death way earlier on.



Point conceded, must have a chakra cloaking ability, didn't occur to me.

But he also wouldn't have Chameleon?  No one else has demonstrated any of those summons with Rinnegan have they? He obviously went and spiked those creatures after impaling himself and developing the paths of pain. Initially, his only summon is Soul Dragon right? These are serious questions, I don't remember if he demonstrated using them beforehand.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Oct 26, 2022)

totsuka blitz gg

Reactions: Winner 5 | Dislike 1


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## TraderJoe (Oct 26, 2022)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> totsuka blitz gg


Per canon.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Lewd 1


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## Gin Ichimaru (Oct 26, 2022)

TraderJoe said:


> Per canon.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> But he also wouldn't have Chameleon? No one else has demonstrated any of those summons with Rinnegan have they? He obviously went and spiked those creatures after impaling himself and developing the paths of pain. Initially, his only summon is Soul Dragon right? These are serious questions, I don't remember if he demonstrated using them beforehand.


Sure, you can argue that. I already made it clear that if we’re using Edo Nagato feats, we’re basically using Edo Nagato for this match-up. Alive pre-emaciation Nagato is featless.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Sure, you can argue that. I already made it clear that if we’re using Edo Nagato feats, we’re basically using Edo Nagato for this match-up. Alive pre-emaciation Nagato is featless.




Presumably, he would have the abilities Edo Nagato has MINUS the summons. They were clearly a thing he made. Living Nagato is Edo Nagato minus summons. Or at the very least, things he could only attune to with the spikes, which happened after soul dragon, when he was on his way to Pain.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Presumably, he would have the abilities Edo Nagato has MINUS the summons. They were clearly a thing he made. Living Nagato is Edo Nagato minus summons. Or at the very least, things he could only attune to with the spikes, which happened after soul dragon, when he was on his way to Pain.


All we saw him do was a Shinra Tensei or two, and Gale Wind Palm or whatever it was called. Then the Gedo Mazo.

If Young Nagato was as proficient with the Rinnegan as Pain was (or Edo Nagato with Pain’s experience), he would’ve decimated Hanzo and his troops without needing to sacrifice his body like that.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 26, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> All we saw him do was a Shinra Tensei or two, and Gale Wind Palm or whatever it was called. Then the Gedo Mazo.
> 
> If Young Nagato was as proficient with the Rinnegan as Pain was (or Edo Nagato with Pain’s experience), he would’ve decimated Hanzo and his troops without needing to sacrifice his body like that.




Isn't that a greater argument against Nagato winning?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Oct 26, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Once CT has cleared all the obstacles and sealed Itachi inside it it sure is champ
> 
> Good chat
> 
> Glad you so quickly exposed yourself as a waste of air


Its a shame you and @Halcyonite 
couldn't have waited to solo the debate before i got off work.. shame on you lewdmen


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## WinNo1929 (Oct 26, 2022)

Mujiefujie said:


> Nagato wins. @Aegon Targaryen  didn't I see a post like this a couple of weeks back?


I had made this post on another site, one of the members must have used my post on here


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 26, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> I had made this post on another site, one of the members must have used my post on here



Nahh .

I have said the same shit nearly word for word with you and I don't use any debate site other than fanverse and comicvine.

It took me ages to write the thread.


That's why it felt so familiar to me, I almost thought I had created this same thread again.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Isn't that a greater argument against Nagato winning?


Like I said, I was only talking about Edo Nagato.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Like I said, I was only talking about Edo Nagato.



Yes but this match is about living Nagato. Who, yes, while healthier has less techniques.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Yes but this match is about living Nagato. Who, yes, while healthier has less techniques.


Cool, young inexperienced Nagato loses.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Cool, young inexperienced Nagato loses.



But also, Rinnegan imparts no immunity to Tsukoyomi so even edo nagato would lose to sick living Itachi. 

Again, Pain is a harder fight for Itachi than Nagato is.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> But also, Rinnegan imparts no immunity to Tsukoyomi so even edo nagato would lose to sick living Itachi.
> 
> Again, Pain is a harder fight for Itachi than Nagato is.


It granting immunity to the strongest visual genjutsu in the entire series, as well as there being no example of the Rinnegan being trapped under visual genjutsu is a strong enough basis to argue otherwise. The Rinnegan’s sheer hype throughout the series and being more exalted than the Sharingan only supports this.

Edo Nagato shits on Alive Itachi, and it’s not even close. Itachi dies of chakra AIDS before he even remotely poses a threat. Nagato ends it with a few Boss Toad STs while laughing at 90% of Itachi’s arsenal.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> It granting immunity to the strongest visual genjutsu in the entire series, as well as there being no example of the Rinnegan being trapped under visual genjutsu is a strong enough basis to argue otherwise. The Rinnegan’s sheer hype throughout the series and being more exalted than the Sharingan only supports this.
> 
> Edo Nagato shits on Alive Itachi, and it’s not even close. Itachi dies of chakra AIDS before he even remotely poses a threat. Nagato ends it with a few Boss Toad STs while laughing at 90% of Itachi’s arsenal.



Please provide any examples of Rinnegan providing Genjutsu immunity or resistance. I will accept hype or feats. Whatever you got. Just not headcanon.


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> It granting immunity to the strongest visual genjutsu in the entire series, as well as there being no example of the Rinnegan being trapped under visual genjutsu is a strong enough basis to argue otherwise. The Rinnegan’s sheer hype throughout the series and being more exalted than the Sharingan only supports this.



What the hell is this reasoning?


Edo Tensei too resisted the strongest genjutsu in the series but it's nothing special and Edo tensei can still fall prey to normal Sharingan Genjutsu.


The Rinnegan doesn't give you immunity to Genjutsu, it's not even exalted as one of it's strengths.

What's with this narrative the Rinnegan makes people immune to Genjutsu?


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Please provide any examples of Rinnegan providing Genjutsu immunity or resistance. I will accept hype or feats. Whatever you got. Just not headcanon.


Infinite Tsukuyomi is touted as the strongest visual genjutsu and Sasuke's Rinnegan is credited for his immunity. The only difference between his Rinnegan and a normal Rinnegan is that it also possesses his Left-EMS's abilities (Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi). Arguing Tsukuyomi or even 3T genjutsu negs a Rinnegan user despite them resisting IT is like saying they can tank a nuke but succumb to a slingshot.



Asura barracuda said:


> What the hell is this reasoning?


Wait a second, _you _are criticising _someone else's _reasoning? Weren't you unironically arguing that Itachi didn't cut off shared vision just because "a black screen wasn't shown" 




Asura barracuda said:


> Edo Tensei too resisted the strongest genjutsu in the series but it's nothing special and Edo tensei can still fall prey to normal Sharingan Genjutsu.


I don't know what you're talking about




Asura barracuda said:


> The Rinnegan doesn't give you immunity to Genjutsu, it's not even exalted as one of it's strengths.


I provided an example of when it did give immunity to the strongest visual genjutsu. It doesn't have to be specifically exalted for genjutsu neither. Why would it be touted as the superior Dojutsu if it succumbs to a basic 3T Sharingan genjutsu according to you?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> ..What do you think the range of Amaterasu is? I will give you a hint. Gamers know it as LOS



0-5m, IIRC. 

LoS is much bigger than that and it can be obscured anyway, as I stated earlier.



Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Sorry. I will tone it down. Some people on here frustrate me when they can't have productive conversations



 



Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Distance actually favors Itachi because Amaterasu doesn't have travel time except for like the last inch of travel. It appears right in front of the target. Knocking Itachi further away makes Amaterasu a more effective counter



No, it doesn't. See above.



Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Chameleon does nothing because MS can see chakra.



Itachi didn't see the Chameleon in the fight (and it's not like him to be totally off-guard, IMO), and on top of that, I did mention a LoS blocker.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Infinite Tsukuyomi is touted as the strongest visual genjutsu and Sasuke's Rinnegan is credited for his immunity. The only difference between his Rinnegan and a normal Rinnegan is that it also possesses his Left-EMS's abilities (Amaterasu). Arguing Tsukuyomi or even 3T genjutsu negs a Rinnegan user is like saying they can tank a nuke but succumb to a slingshot.
> 
> 
> Wait a second, _you _are criticising _someone else's _reasoning? Weren't you unironically arguing that Itachi didn't cut off shared vision just because "a black screen wasn't shown"
> ...



Infinite Tsukoyomi is a power of the Tsukoyomi, an extension of the Sharingan. Obito lost his MS powers when using Rinnegan and Nagato has never demonstrated any genjutsu proficiency or resistance to genjutsu. Also, Nagato NEVER had an MS, so the idea that he would get any of it's conferred benefits makes no sense.

Where does it say Sasuke's rinnegan grants him immunity to any Genjutsu?

And also, to answer your metaphor about a nuke and a slingshot. It's more like being able to tank a nuke but still being able to drown (hashirama for example). Different strengths and weaknesses for different ocular techniques. Why didn't Madara just Izanagi Zetsu's attack?

But again, anything directly from source material that proves Rinnegan increases genjutsu resistance.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Wait a second, _you _are criticising _someone else's _reasoning? Weren't you unironically arguing that Itachi didn't cut off shared vision just because "a black screen wasn't shown"



Umm, yes.


Shared vision wasn't cut off

Like I said. If shared vision was cut off Kabuto would notice a black screen.





Halcyonite said:


> I don't know what you're talking about




Edo tensei resisted infinite Tsukuyomi.

Yet it's not immune to Genjutsu, that's my freaking point.





Halcyonite said:


> I provided an example of when it did give immunity to the strongest visual genjutsu. It doesn't have to be specifically exalted for genjutsu neither. Why would it be touted as the superior Dojutsu if it succumbs to a basic 3T Sharingan genjutsu according to you?



Umm, anytime something has a strong affinity for genjutsu or a supposed strong resistance, then Kishi makes sure to exalt it.


The Rinnegan is never given genjutsu immunity as one of it's powers.


So unless something is noted to have genjutsu immunity or resistance, then giving it genjutsu immunity based on headcannon is baseless.



Perfect Jinchuriki we're specifically noted to have a strength against genjutsu, Kishi had all the time in the world to give the Rinnegan genjutsu immunity or resistance yet never once did.


Blatantly obvious it wasn't a part of his plan.

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Infinite Tsukoyomi is a power of the Tsukoyomi, an extension of the Sharingan. Obito lost his MS powers when using Rinnegan and Nagato has never demonstrated any genjutsu proficiency or resistance to genjutsu. Also, Nagato NEVER had an MS, so the idea that he would get any of it's conferred benefits makes no sense.


Infinite Tsukuyomi and Tsukuyomi are not the same. I bet you said this just because they both have Tsukuyomi in their names Functionally, they are completely different. I only brought it up as an example of Rinnegan resisting IT, a more potent VISUAL genjutsu. IT is also from a more powerful eye, so go figure.

When in the fuck did Obito lose his MS powers by gaining the Rinnegan? He only lost the ability to use the full extent of Kamui due to being the Ten Tails Jinchuriki.
Nagato not being exposed to visual genjutsu is not a sufficient reason - it's also telling that he's fought multiple genjutsu users (Kakashi, Itachi) and not once did they even try and use genjutsu on him. I wonder why  The only time genjutsu worked on Nagato was when it was auditory.

On top of that, your logic that Nagato wouldn't get any of the conferred benefits is presupposing that the Rinnegan's resistance to genjutsu comes from the Sharingan pre-evolution. This is not the case, otherwise Black Zetsu would've credited Sasuke's Sharingan and not his Rinnegan. Sasuke's Rinnegan has something that the Sharingan does not i.e. a higher level of resistance to visual genjutsu.

And before you come up with this bogus point (I've already predicted it), Genjutsu Usage =/= Genjutsu Resistance. Just because the Rinnegan doesn't utilise genjutsu, that doesn't mean it doesn't boast a resistance. We've seen "genjutsu specialists" get slammed by genjutsu (C, Danzo), and we've seen people that never use genjutsu EVER, resist genjutsu (Deidara).




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Where does it say Sasuke's rinnegan grants him immunity to any Genjutsu?


Black Zetsu says it right after Infinite Tsukuyomi ends.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> And also, to answer your metaphor about a nuke and a slingshot. It's more like being able to tank a nuke but still being able to drown (hashirama for example). Different strengths and weaknesses for different ocular techniques. Why didn't Madara just Izanagi Zetsu's attack?


They're both visual genjutsus. One is drastically stronger than the other. Rinnegan resists it perfectly. It would make sense and be consistent for the Rinnegan to resist a 3-Tomoe Sharingan genjutsu. You saying one is like a nuke and one is like drowning bears no weight if you don't substantiate it.

Madara lost the ability to do anything once Zetsu inserted Kaguya's chakra into him. Including using Izanagi. It was also offguard.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> But again, anything directly from source material that proves Rinnegan increases genjutsu resistance.


So basically, what just happened is:
You asked for proof. I give you proof. You proceed to ignore it and then ask for proof. Logic.




Asura barracuda said:


> Umm, yes.
> 
> 
> Shared vision wasn't cut off
> ...


Are you not embarrassed? I'm gonna reiterate what I said earlier ONE last time, and that's it. I'm not entertaining this garbage further.

Kabuto expressly said that he thought the shared vision of the Rinnegan would help against the trio, but Itachi used blindspots to TAKE OUT the shared vision with Kunai - allowing him to get the jump on Nagato. Why in the flying fuck would Itachi throw Kunai at shared vision if not to cut it off? Just for shits and giggles?

And the reason why Kabuto didn't notice "a black screen" is probably because Itachi did it simultaneously. He's efficient like that. No timeframe for when he cuts off shared vision and when he attacks Nagato is given, so you're basing your ENTIRE SKEPTICISM of this on an assumption. Stupid.




Asura barracuda said:


> Edo tensei resisted infinite Tsukuyomi.


Read the manga with eyes OPEN this time.




Asura barracuda said:


> Umm, anytime something has a strong affinity for genjutsu or a supposed strong resistance, then Kishi makes sure to exalt it.
> 
> 
> The Rinnegan is never given genjutsu immunity as one of it's powers.


It's explicitly shown AND stated when Sasuke resists the most powerful visual genjutsu with it. Hiruzen and the others being immune to IT is not an anti-feat for Rinnegan > Sharingan in visual genjutsu resistance.




Asura barracuda said:


> So unless something is noted to have genjutsu immunity or resistance, then giving it genjutsu immunity based on headcannon is baseless.


It's not headcanon if it's canon




Asura barracuda said:


> Perfect Jinchuriki we're specifically noted to have a strength against genjutsu, Kishi had all the time in the world to give the Rinnegan genjutsu immunity or resistance yet never once did.
> 
> 
> Blatantly obvious it wasn't a part of his plan.


Except he OUTRIGHT SHOWED AND STATED IT. What is up with you jesus christ


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Read the manga with eyes OPEN this time.



I don't get what this is supposed to entail.


Was the Edo Tensei immune or not immune to the Infinite Tsukuyomi?





Halcyonite said:


> It's explicitly shown AND stated when Sasuke resists the most powerful visual genjutsu with it. Hiruzen and the others being immune to IT is not an anti-feat for Rinnegan > Sharingan in visual genjutsu resistance.




Edo Tensei> Sharingan in visual genjutsu resistance too, of course.


I'm still waiting for when the Immunity to Genjutsu is listed as an ability of the Rinnegan.


I'm sure you've read the Databooks haven't you?

So perhaps you can find it under the Rinnegan page.





Halcyonite said:


> Except he OUTRIGHT SHOWED AND STATED IT. What is up with you jesus christ



Stated the Rinnegan is immune to Genjutsu?

Where?

Showed the Rinnegan is immune to Genjutsu?

Where again?


The six paths, all bearing the Rinnegan that Nagato linked to them fell under genjutsu.

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

It's pretty telling that you ignored many other points (probably because you knew you were ratting)  




Asura barracuda said:


> I don't get what this is supposed to entail.
> 
> 
> Was the Edo Tensei immune or not immune to the Infinite Tsukuyomi?


It doesn't take much to understand that the Edo Tensei zombies do not fulfill the purpose of Infinite Tsukuyomi in the first place.

IT places the world under genjutsu so that the Divine Tree can extract its chakra from all living creatures with minimal effort. Edo Tensei zombies aren't genuine living humans, so it's likely that the genjutsu only targets the living in order to fulfill its purpose. That doesn't mean Edo Tenseis have cracked genjutsu resistance, it just means that they have a loophole due to not adhering to a facet of Infinite Tsukuyomi.

So no, this doesn't serve as an anti-feat to the Rinnegan. Sharingan failed to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi. Rinnegan resisted it.


Asura barracuda said:


> Edo Tensei> Sharingan in visual genjutsu resistance too, of course.


Already addressed this.




Asura barracuda said:


> I'm still waiting for when the Immunity to Genjutsu is listed as an ability of the Rinnegan.


Rinnegan was stated to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi. Rinnegan was shown to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi.

You're stupid



Asura barracuda said:


> I'm sure you've read the Databooks haven't you?
> 
> So perhaps you can find it under the Rinnegan page.


Bro referred me to the DATABOOKS  Was the manga too accurate for you? Would you like to surf Reddit to find an expert there that agrees with you on your "muh Edo Tensei > Sharingan" stance?



Asura barracuda said:


> Stated the Rinnegan is immune to Genjutsu?
> 
> Where?


Stated to resist the strongest visual genjutsu in the entire series - you need eyes for this Asura barracuda



Asura barracuda said:


> Showed the Rinnegan is immune to Genjutsu?
> 
> Where again?


Shown to resist the strongest visual genjutsu in the entire series - you need eyes for this Asura barracuda




Asura barracuda said:


> The six paths, all bearing the Rinnegan that Nagato linked to them fell under genjutsu.


Not all six of them, and it was an auditory genjutsu. Wrong on two accounts? You must be a casual.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Infinite Tsukuyomi and Tsukuyomi are not the same. I bet you said this just because they both have Tsukuyomi in their names Functionally, they are completely different. I only brought it up as an example of Rinnegan resisting IT, a more potent VISUAL genjutsu. IT is also from a more powerful eye, so go figure.
> 
> When in the fuck did Obito lose his MS powers by gaining the Rinnegan? He only lost the ability to use the full extent of Kamui due to being the Ten Tails Jinchuriki.
> Nagato not being exposed to visual genjutsu is not a sufficient reason - it's also telling that he's fought multiple genjutsu users (Kakashi, Itachi) and not once did they even try and use genjutsu on him. I wonder why  The only time genjutsu worked on Nagato was when it was auditory.
> ...



Do you have proof of that about Infinite Tsukoyomi? I don't have proof, but the imagery typically shows the EMS over the moon, not the Rinnegan. Or a Rinne-Sharingan, but never JUST a Rinnegan as far as I can tell. Nothing seems to indicate the Rinnegan grants ANY genjutsu capabilities that isn't a rinne-*sharingan*.


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Do you have proof of that about Infinite Tsukoyomi? I don't have proof, but the imagery typically shows the EMS over the moon, not the Rinnegan. Or a Rinne-Sharingan, but never JUST a Rinnegan as far as I can tell. Nothing seems to indicate the Rinnegan grants ANY genjutsu capabilities that isn't a rinne-*sharingan*.


It was either a Sharingan or Rinnesharingan visual genjutsu that the Rinnegan resisted, and it’s touted as one of the most powerful. And unless you’re genuinely trying to argue that Sharingan genjutsu > Rinnesharingan genjutsu based on nothing, it doesn’t matter.

It’s also funny how earlier on you guys weren’t fond of categorising genjutsu, keeping it all as one big vague umbrella - that Pain being caught by Frog Song, an auditory genjutsu, means that he’s susceptible to all genjutsu. And now that I’ve presented this IT example to to you guys, you’re now distinguishing Rinnesharingan genjutsu, Sharingan genjutsu and Rinnegan genjutsu. It’s… it’s almost as if you guys have an agenda

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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> It was either a Sharingan or Rinnesharingan visual genjutsu that the Rinnegan resisted, and it’s touted as one of the most powerful. And unless you’re genuinely trying to argue that Sharingan genjutsu > Rinnesharingan genjutsu based on nothing, it doesn’t matter.
> 
> It’s also funny how earlier on you guys weren’t fond of categorising genjutsu, keeping it all as one big vague umbrella - that Pain being caught by Frog Song, an auditory genjutsu, means that he’s susceptible to all genjutsu. And now that I’ve presented this IT example to to you guys, you’re now distinguishing Rinnesharingan genjutsu, Sharingan genjutsu and Rinnegan genjutsu. It’s… it’s almost as if you guys have an agenda



No I am not. I am saying the EYES ARE different and the power the EYES give you are different as a result. Does the Byakugan grant resistance to genjutsu because it's an eye kekkei genkei?

We have seen the Byakugan, the Sharingan, the Rinnegan, the Rinne-Sharingan, whatever the name of the guy on the moons eyes are, and others.

The each have different powers and properties.

The Rinnegan may be an offshoot of the Sharingan (So is the Byakugan, or vice versa), but it does not possess the innate genjutsu abilities that seem to be associated with the sharingan, at no point and in no demonstration. Please provide something canon here if I am wrong.

The Rinne-*sharingan*, an eye that contains BOTH the Rinnegan and Sharingan seems to have both properties, per YOUR example with Sasuke and with Madara.

Nagato *never even had a sharingan*, and ONLY ever demonstrated powers of the Rinnegan, not including genjutsu. What you are saying is not logically consistent.

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> No I am not. I am saying the EYES ARE different and the power the EYES give you are different as a result. Does the Byakugan grant resistance to genjutsu because it's an eye kekkei genkei?


If the Byakugan had genjutsu resistance feats, then it would be worth bringing up. The Rinnegan resisted the strongest visual genjutsu in the entire series. Maybe you should tattoo this sentence on the inside of your eyelids so every time you blink, you remember.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> We have seen the Byakugan, the Sharingan, the Rinnegan, the Rinne-Sharingan, whatever the name of the guy on the moons eyes are, and others.


Not all of them have genjutsu resistance feats, nor the hype. Byakugan's hype pales in comparison to the Rinnegan's hype. Rinnegan also LIVES UP to its hype.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> They each have different powers and properties.


Yes.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> The Rinnegan may be an offshoot of the Sharingan (So is the Byakugan, or vice versa), but it does not possess the innate genjutsu abilities that seem to be associated with the sharingan, at no point and in no demonstration. Please provide something canon here if I am wrong.


It's not though - it's the same way how if Hashirama got Madara or another Indra reincarnate's DNA, he likely would've acquired the Rinnegan.

And I already told you, you don't need genjutsu abilities to have genjutsu resistance. They're like two completely different stats. Deidara, who has zero genjutsu abilities, could resist the Sharingan's genjutsu.

You also have genjutsu specialists like C and Danzo, getting trapped in genjutsu. Knowing genjutsu does not necessitate you being good at resisting them. It certainly helps, but it isn't the definitive factor.

I already told you that the Rinnegan is stated and shown to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> The Rinne-*sharingan*, an eye that contains BOTH the Rinnegan and Sharingan seems to have both properties, per YOUR example with Sasuke and with Madara.


This is a fallacy:

The *nominal fallacy*, also known as the *naming-explaining fallacy*, is a  in which it is incorrectly assumed that giving something a name is tantamount to explaining it.  has described the fallacy as "...the error of believing that the label carries explanatory information."

Just because the Rinnesharingan has "Rinne" and "Sharingan" in it, that doesn't just mean it's just the Rinnegan and Sharingan combined into one and nothing else. It is its own thing.

And even if I were to steelman your point, Black Zetsu specifically credits the Rinnegan for resisting IT. If the Sharingan's powers played any part in resisting it, Black Zetsu would have mentioned both.




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Nagato *never even had a sharingan*, and ONLY ever demonstrated powers of the Rinnegan, not including genjutsu. What you are saying is not logically consistent.


He doesn't need to have had the Sharingan. What are you not understanding? If the Rinnegan is credited for resisting the genjutsu in question, then it is the Rinnegan's inherent powers that are responsible for said resistance.

You can't even call it logically inconsistent, because I've given you two examples earlier where you don't need to be a genjutsu user to resist genjutsu.

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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> If the Byakugan had genjutsu resistance feats, then it would be worth bringing up. The Rinnegan resisted the strongest visual genjutsu in the entire series. Maybe you should tattoo this sentence on the inside of your eyelids so every time you blink, you remember.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So, are Sasuke eye and Nagato's eyes the same?

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## Trojan (Oct 27, 2022)

Kishi didn't make it 3 on 1 to tell you that anyone of them could have solo'd Nagato... 
it clearly shows that Nagato was the strongest one there...

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So, are Sasuke eye and Nagato's eyes the same?


This is the same guy who cried for "productive discussions" btw


No they're not the same, but we're explicitly shown that the only difference they have is that Sasuke can use his Left-EMS powers with them. Now guess what. *DID SASUKE'S LEFT EMS HAVE THE ABILITIES NEEDED TO RESIST INFINITE TSUKUYOMI?*

No it fucking didn't - Sasuke gaining the Rinnegan gave him SOMETHING that allowed him to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi. If he could already resist Infinite Tsukuyomi, his right-EMS would have been mentioned. In every regard, his eye is functionally identical to a normal Rinnegan bar keeping Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> This is the same guy who cried for "productive discussions" btw
> 
> 
> No they're not the same, but we're explicitly shown that the only difference they have is that Sasuke can use his Left-EMS powers with them. Now guess what. *DID SASUKE'S LEFT EMS HAVE THE ABILITIES NEEDED TO RESIST INFINITE TSUKUYOMI?*
> ...




...Bar keeping it's EMS properties... Which include genjutsu and genjutsu resistance.

The same properties Nagato's eye lacked.

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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> This is the same guy who cried for "productive discussions" btw
> 
> 
> No they're not the same, but we're explicitly shown that the only difference they have is that Sasuke can use his Left-EMS powers with them. Now guess what. *DID SASUKE'S LEFT EMS HAVE THE ABILITIES NEEDED TO RESIST INFINITE TSUKUYOMI?*
> ...





Zetsu credited the Susanoo for blocking the light.


Sasuke never resisted or faced the Infinite Tsukuyomi, another fanfiction you just made up.


His Susanoo is what blocked the light, his eyes didn't or body didn't touch the light.


Zetsu then credited Sasukes rinnegan(*Which Hagoromo is stated to have gifted Sasuke*) for being special enough to produce a a strong enough Susanoo which came from his fucking Sharingan for blocking the light of the Susanoo.


So it was both the combination of the Sharingan and Rinnegan that Sasuke blocked the light of infinite Tsukuyomi.


Fucking read the manga.

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> ...Bar keeping it's EMS properties... Which include genjutsu and genjutsu resistance.
> 
> The same properties Nagato's eye lacked.


If the genjutsu resistance needed to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi was already in the EMS, he wouldn't have needed Rinnegan to resist it. The Rinnegan is what had the property to resist IT.

It's actually SO simple and you can't understand it. How do you even string sentences together at that point?




Asura barracuda said:


> Zetsu credited the Susanoo for blocking the light.


Thanks to the Rinnegan. The only reason Sasuke used the Susanoo was to protect Team 7.




Asura barracuda said:


> Sasuke never resisted or faced the Infinite Tsukuyomi, another fanfiction you just made up.
> 
> 
> His Susanoo is what blocked the light, his eyes didn't or body didn't touch the light.


Thanks to the Rinnegan

You're unironically arguing that the Rinnegan can't resist IT, but the Rinnegan's power can resist IT.




Asura barracuda said:


> Zetsu then credited Sasukes rinnegan(*Which Hagoromo is stated to have gifted Sasuke*) for being special enough to produce a a strong enough Susanoo which came from his fucking Sharingan for blocking the light of the Susanoo.
> 
> 
> So it was both the combination of the Sharingan and Rinnegan that Sasuke blocked the light of infinite Tsukuyomi.
> ...


The Rinnegan that allowed him to protect the others with his Susanoo

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## TraderJoe (Oct 27, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Zetsu credited the Susanoo for blocking the light.
> 
> 
> Sasuke never resisted or faced the Infinite Tsukuyomi, another fanfiction you just made up.
> ...


I've seen a lot of people argue RInnegan gives you resistance to all genjutsu since Sasuke's Susano'o amped by Hagoromo's chakra/Rinnegan blocked the light from IT. Crazy leaps of logic.

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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Are you being dumb on purpose? If the genjutsu resistance needed to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi was already in the EMS, he wouldn't have needed Rinnegan to resist it. The Rinnegan is what had the property to resist IT.
> 
> It's actually SO simple and you can't understand it. How do you even string sentences together at that point?
> 
> ...


You are just not right. But I wish you the best.

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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Thanks to the Rinnegan. The only reason Sasuke used the Susanoo was to protect Team 7.


Not really.

It's thanks to the Sharingan that Sasuke has a fucking Susanoo in the first place for blocking light.

And thanks to fucking Hagoromos chakra that flowed through Sasuke that he was able to resist it.


And the Susanoo is noted to have protected everyone, including Sasuke don't bring the it was only protecting Naruto and Sakura headcannon.

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> You are just not right. But I wish you the best.


You failed to prove anything in the hours worth of discussion we had

You literally cucked to every point and resorted to letting Asura take the wheel 




Asura barracuda said:


> Not really.
> 
> It's thanks to the Sharingan that Sasuke has a fucking Susanoo in the first place for blocking light.
> 
> ...


So you're unironically arguing that Sasuke's Rinnegan can't resist Infinite Tsukuyomi, but the power granted by the Rinnegan allows him to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi.

If a normal perfect Susanoo can't resist IT, but a Perfect Susanoo requires a Rinnegan to do so, what does that tell you? The only reason he needed Susanoo was to protect his teammates.

You literally headcannoned right now saying it was just Hagoromo's chakra - if that was the case, Sasuke wouldn't have needed to protect Naruto.


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> So you're unironically arguing that Sasuke's Rinnegan can't resist Infinite Tsukuyomi, but the power granted by the Rinnegan allows him to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi.




You quite mistake Something here bud.

It's the power granted by Hagoromo that allows Sasuke to power up the Susanoo to block the light for him.


Sasukes rinnegan is Hagoromos eyes, specifically said to have been directly gifted to him by Hagoromo.






Halcyonite said:


> You literally headcannoned right now saying it was just Hagoromo's chakra - if that was the case, Sasuke wouldn't have needed to protect Naruto. Hypocrite as usual



Headcannon that the Rinnegan is Hagoromos chakra?

Wow, look at someone who read the manga, freaking embarrassing.


The Rinnegan Sasuke has is Hagoromos own, it has his Chakra.

Sasuke also had Hagoromos chakra living directly in his body and his eyes.

Freaking read.

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> You quite mistake Something here bud.
> 
> It's the power granted by Hagoromo that allows Sasuke to power up the Susanoo to block the light for him.
> 
> ...


But it's specifically the Rinnegan credited for it

Not Hagoromo's chakra. With that logic, Naruto should have been able to do something. But the Rinnegan is what allows Sasuke to resist it.

You're the mistaken one friend




Asura barracuda said:


> Headcannon that the Rinnegan is Hagoromos chakra?
> 
> Wow, look at someone who read the manga, freaking embarrassing.


You don't know how to read. I know why you love Itachi so much now, you can relate to his blindness 




Asura barracuda said:


> The Rinnegan Sasuke has is Hagoromos own, it has his Chakra.
> 
> Sasuke also had Hagoromos chakra living directly in his body and his eyes.
> 
> Freaking read.


Was it stated that Hagoromo's chakra deters Infinite Tsukuyomi? Or is this more of the refined Asura barracuda headcanon?


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> But it's specifically the Rinnegan credited for it
> 
> Not Hagoromo's chakra. With that logic, Naruto should have been able to do something. But the Rinnegan is what allows Sasuke to resist it.
> 
> ...




Serious question, why is yours not headcanon but his is?

The problem is you are making illogical leaps and refuse to see it. Refuse to acknowledge it even.

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Serious question, why is yours not headcanon but his is?


Because mine was stated in the manga whereas his isn't

Pretty simple, but I can understand why you'd need to ask that question


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Because mine was stated in the manga whereas his isn't
> 
> Pretty simple, but I can understand why you'd need to ask that question


Please tell me where.


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> But it's specifically the Rinnegan credited for it
> 
> Not Hagoromo's chakra. With that logic, Naruto should have been able to do something else.
> 
> You're the mistaken one friend




Zetsu notes that Sasukes rinnegan is incredibly special for being able to produce a Susanoo strong enough to block the infinite Tsukuyomis light, hence Zetsus fucking surprise.




Sasukes rinnegan is owned and created by Hagoromo.





Hagoromos chakra flows through Sasuke and his eyes.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Please tell me where.


When Madara casts Infinite Tsukuyomi. He credits the Rinnegan for deterring the Jutsu


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Zetsu notes that Sasukes rinnegan is incredibly special for being able to produce a Susanoo strong enough to block the infinite Tsukuyomis light, hence Zetsus fucking surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why wouldn't Zetsu credit Hagoromo's chakra then, instead of Sasuke's Rinnegan? You still haven't answered this

Oh I know why, because you've realised your argument has holes in it


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Why wouldn't Zetsu credit Hagoromo's chakra then, instead of Sasuke's Rinnegan? You still haven't answered this



Fucking hell.

The Rinnegan was created by Hagoromo and gifted to Sasuke, that's Hagoromos power doing this feat.

Zetsu had to note how special Sasukes rinnegan was for being able to achieve that feat 


It's right there in the damn manga.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Fucking hell.
> 
> The Rinnegan was created by Hagoromo and gifted to Sasuke, that's Hagoromos power doing this feat.
> 
> ...


That's incorrect given that Hagoromo directly acknowledges that merging the chakra of his two incarnates forms his own chakra. Meaning Madara's Rinnegan would have the same chakra as Hagoromo.


Zetsu quite literally acknowledged that Sasuke's Rinnegan could resist IT, in a clear and cut statement. You've thrown in other things like Hagoromo's chakra, that aren't even mentioned. You are headcannoning. This is the definition of headcanon. Like I said, if it was truly Hagoromo's chakra, Naruto would have been able to resist IT as well.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> When Madara casts Infinite Tsukuyomi. He credits the Rinnegan for deterring the Jutsu




They both have the same specific eyes, Madara and Sasuke, a Rinnegant with highly visible sharingan patterns on it. As pointed out by @Asura barracuda that was gifted to Sasuke by Hagoromo who shared ten tails chakra (as did madara). 

Nagato never did any of that and didn't have the same eyes. In fact there is a precedent of non natural eye holders to be severely hampered in usage or chakra drain by those eyes. He can't revert them out of Rinnegan, this only reinforces not having access to the full power set.

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> They both have the same specific eyes, Madara and Sasuke, a Rinnegant with highly visible sharingan patterns on it. As pointed out by @Asura barracuda that was gifted to Sasuke by Hagoromo who shared ten tails chakra (as did madara).


Rinnesharingan and Rinnegan are not the same thing

Association Fallacy confirmed




Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Nagato never did any of that and didn't have the same eyes. In fact there is a precedent of non natural eye holders to be severely hampered in usage or chakra drain by those eyes. He can't revert them out of Rinnegan, this only reinforces not having access to the full power set.


This does nothing for arguing genjutsu resistance in the Rinnegan. Genjutsu Resistance is not an active ability that people are limited from. It's an inherent quality of the eye. Not once in the ENTIRE SERIES have transplant users been exempt from genjutsu use/genjutsu resistance, depending on which specific eye they gain. 

The only thing you're correct on for once is the fact that he can't revert them.


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> That's incorrect given that Hagoromo directly acknowledges that merging the chakra of his two incarnates forms his own chakra. Meaning Madara's Rinnegan would have the same chakra as Hagoromo.



This is incredibly useless.


Madara never awakened Hagoromos chakra, he doesn't have Hagoromos chakra.

Only when he became the Juubi Jin did he get Hagoromos chakra.





Halcyonite said:


> Zetsu quite literally acknowledged that Sasuke's Rinnegan could resist IT, in a clear and cut statement. You've thrown in other things like Hagoromo's chakra, that aren't even mentioned. You are headcannoning. This is the definition of headcanon. Like I said, if it was truly Hagoromo's chakra, Naruto would have been able to resist IT as well.





Sorry, but Sasukes rinnegan belongs to Hagoromo.

Thereby Hagoromos feat.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> This is incredibly useless.
> 
> 
> Madara never awakened Hagoromos chakra, he doesn't have Hagoromos chakra.
> ...


Correct, he merged the two reincarnates' chakra to gain a derivation of Hagoromo's chakra

Congrats, you're learning!



Asura barracuda said:


> Sorry, but Sasukes rinnegan belongs to Hagoromo.
> 
> Thereby Hagoromos feat.


Nice headcanon kid


All chakra belongs to Kaguya, therefore all feats are Kaguya's!!!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Asura barracuda (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Nice headcanon kid
> 
> 
> All chakra belongs to Kaguya, therefore all feats are Kaguya's!!!



Ummm...... that's how it fucking works.

All chakra belongs to her and all the feats belong to her.

This is simple maths here.


Kurama, the tailed beast, Hashirama and Madara and the rest.

Everything they did is with a piece of her chakra that Hagoromo passed down to the freaking world.


Hagoromos chakra and power too belongs to Kaguya.



And Sasukes rinnegan was created by Hagoromo, it's his damn power that Sasuke is using here.


Sasukes chakra is half as potent as Hagoromos chakra itself and Sasukes eyes are just Hagoromos.

So that feat belongs to Hagoromo.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Ummm...... that's how it fucking works.
> 
> All chakra belongs to her and all the feats belong to her.
> 
> This is simple maths here.


Thanks for the late night entertainment  




Asura barracuda said:


> Kurama, the tailed beast, Hashirama and Madara and the rest.
> 
> Everything they did is with a piece of her chakra that Hagoromo passed down to the freaking world.
> 
> ...


Quick maths




Asura barracuda said:


> And Sasukes rinnegan was created by Hagoromo, it's his damn power that Sasuke is using here.
> 
> 
> Sasukes chakra is half as potent as Hagoromos chakra itself and Sasukes eyes are just Hagoromos.
> ...


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Rinnesharingan and Rinnegan are not the same thing
> 
> Association Fallacy confirmed
> 
> ...




Tell me, do Sasuke and Nagato have the same eye? Do they look identical? No? Different pattern? Obtained a different way? With clearly different abilities?

Feats of Sasuke's Rinnesharingan have literally nothing to do with feats of Nagato's Rinnegan.

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## Halcyonite (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Tell me, do Sasuke and Nagato have the same eye? Do they look identical? No? Different pattern? Obtained a different way? With clearly different abilities?
> 
> Feats of Sasuke's Rinnesharingan have literally nothing to do with feats of Nagato's Rinnegan.


Association fallacy

Just because things look similar, that does not mean they are the same.

it works conversely too. Just because they look differently, doesn't mean they _can't _be similar


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> *With clearly different abilities?*


And no actually, you're absolutely wrong. They're almost identical in ability. They both have the 7 Paths, as well as chakra rods, chakra perception, everything.

The only difference is Amenotejikara, because that is EXPLICITLY stated to be the case. Madara has Limbo has his special ability. This is excluding Sasuke retaining his old EMS powers.

So no, your headcanon and fallacy-ridden arguments don't bode well here either


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## Charisma (Oct 27, 2022)

I'm not sure if the current argument has any merit. Sasuke can resist Infinite Tsukuyomi because of his Rinnegan, not Susanoo. This is made direct by Black Zetsu. Sasuke literally goes on to speculate that Rinnegan can resist Rinnegan genjutsu. He himself says this. It's revealed that with just a Rinnegan and Tailed Beast chakra, you can quite literally deactivate Infinite Tsukuyomi as a whole. Still nothing to do with Susanoo. Genjutsu countering is a basic ability of the eye and Hagoromo's research verifies this.

Would Sasuke get caught by Infinite Tsukuyomi if he wasn't protected by Susanoo? Maybe. But even if he was, he'd know it and be able to instantly see through it. It's either that or he isn't affected at all. No in-between.

This would undoubtedly carry over to Nagato. The only difference is that Nagato doesn't have a Sharingan. He might be able to resist Rinnegan genjutsu, but not Sharingan genjutsu. Nothing leads to such an assumption, anyways.

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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 27, 2022)

Charisma said:


> I'm not sure if the current argument has any merit. Sasuke can resist Infinite Tsukuyomi because of his Rinnegan, not Susanoo. This is made direct by Black Zetsu. Sasuke literally goes on to speculate that Rinnegan can resist Rinnegan genjutsu. He himself says this. It's revealed that with just a Rinnegan and Tailed Beast chakra, you can quite literally deactivate Infinite Tsukuyomi as a whole. Still nothing to do with Susanoo. Genjutsu countering is a basic ability of the eye and Hagoromo's research verifies this.
> 
> Would Sasuke get caught by Infinite Tsukuyomi if he wasn't protected by Susanoo? Maybe. But even if he was, he'd know it and be able to instantly see through it. It's either that or he isn't affected at all. No in-between.
> 
> This would undoubtedly carry over to Nagato. The only difference is that Nagato doesn't have a Sharingan. He might be able to resist Rinnegan genjutsu, but not Sharingan genjutsu. Nothing leads to such an assumption, anyways.




This is where I keep having trouble with this argument. How exactly are you drawing this conclusion? Not just saying it, but logic it out for me.

Because, to me, they have different eyes, Nagato and Sasuke. Both by appearance, and from source of power. Presumably hagoromo Chakra would be 10 tailslike, explaining the connection to infinite tsukoyomi but not Nagato.

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## Charisma (Oct 28, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> This is where I keep having trouble with this argument. How exactly are you drawing this conclusion? Not just saying it, but logic it out for me.
> 
> Because, to me, they have different eyes, Nagato and Sasuke. Both by appearance, and from source of power. Presumably hagoromo Chakra would be 10 tailslike, explaining the connection to infinite tsukoyomi but not Nagato.


A Rinnegan is a Rinnegan. Nobody ever makes the distinct difference that only Sasuke's Rinnegan can do anything. Not even Sasuke himself. They speak in generality, just as Sasuke saying a Rinnegan can counter a Rinnegan. When Hagoromo did his research on dispelling IT, it was with his own Rinnegan. That knocks over the notion that the Sharingan mixture has anything to do with it.

Source of power is also irrelevant. A stronger chakra might boost abilities already there, but to say it just grants a whole new ability? That's far-fetched. Naruto had Hagoromo's chakra too, but it doesn't help make him immune. They both had drained all of Hagoromo's chakra from them after losing the seals and fighting to their last battle, anyways. And Sasuke could still dispel IT. He makes the suggestion that even Kakashi could do it if required. Furthermore, we have been told over and over by Obito how Madara's Rinnegan contain such strong chakra that it's difficult to control. He could manage the Ten-Tails but not both eyes. Hagoromo himself says Madara awakened some semblance of his chakra. No reason to think there is any such large disparity. Especially when it's suggested that Kakashi, a guy who constantly shoulders the burden of the Sharingan, could handle Sasuke's Rinnegan, but Obito, a real Uchiha with Senju DNA, could not handle Madara's. If anything, an argument exists that Madara's is more powerful as a pure Rinnegan. Not saying I necessarily believe that, but the argument is there.

Essentially, you are barking up a tree that doesn't exist. This topic is never made ambiguous in the story. Everyone talks about as if all Rinnegan are the same. There's zero literary reason to even question this topic. And I don't see why Madara or Nagato being resistant to Rinnegan genjutsu would mean anything at all? It's really such an unimportant topic.

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## Wolfgang (Oct 28, 2022)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Nagato and Pain aren’t the same person idiot.  If Jiraiya’s genjutsu worked on Nagato he wouldn’t have been able to bring out the 3 other paths of pain that killed him.
> 
> Nagato stomps Itachi. Deal with it

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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 28, 2022)

Charisma said:


> A Rinnegan is a Rinnegan. Nobody ever makes the distinct difference that only Sasuke's Rinnegan can do anything. Not even Sasuke himself. They speak in generality, just as Sasuke saying a Rinnegan can counter a Rinnegan. When Hagoromo did his research on dispelling IT, it was with his own Rinnegan. That knocks over the notion that the Sharingan mixture has anything to do with it.
> 
> Source of power is also irrelevant. A stronger chakra might boost abilities already there, but to say it just grants a whole new ability? That's far-fetched. Naruto had Hagoromo's chakra too, but it doesn't help make him immune. They both had drained all of Hagoromo's chakra from them after losing the seals and fighting to their last battle, anyways. And Sasuke could still dispel IT. He makes the suggestion that even Kakashi could do it if required. Furthermore, we have been told over and over by Obito how Madara's Rinnegan contain such strong chakra that it's difficult to control. He could manage the Ten-Tails but not both eyes. Hagoromo himself says Madara awakened some semblance of his chakra. No reason to think there is any such large disparity. Especially when it's suggested that Kakashi, a guy who constantly shoulders the burden of the Sharingan, could handle Sasuke's Rinnegan, but Obito, a real Uchiha with Senju DNA, could not handle Madara's. If anything, an argument exists that Madara's is more powerful as a pure Rinnegan. Not saying I necessarily believe that, but the argument is there.
> 
> Essentially, you are barking up a tree that doesn't exist. This topic is never made ambiguous in the story. Everyone talks about as if all Rinnegan are the same. There's zero literary reason to even question this topic. And I don't see why Madara or Nagato being resistant to Rinnegan genjutsu would mean anything at all? It's really such an unimportant topic.




So, even though there is a clear visible difference you just ignore that? We have seen multiple samples of the Rinnegan. It's like the Byakugan. It looks ONE way. Then there is a different variant called the rinnesharingan that Sasuke and Madara have. Am I missing something or are we just pretending to very different things are the same thing?

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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 28, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So, even though there is a clear visible difference you just ignore that? We have seen multiple samples of the Rinnegan. It's like the Byakugan. It looks ONE way. Then there is a different variant called the rinnesharingan that Sasuke and Madara have. Am I missing something or are we just pretending to very different things are the same thing?



Sasuke has the Rinnegan, m8. It just looks closer to a Rinnesharingan.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 28, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Sasuke has the Rinnegan, m8. It just looks closer to a Rinnesharingan.



What makes you think that? If someone had eyes that looked like a Sharingan you wouldn't say "Oh that's a Byakugan, it just looks like a Sharingan". I am confused how you are getting this conclusion.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 28, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> What makes you think that?



The manga, DB4, Boruto, and novels all unanimously refer to it as a Rinnegan.

It is definitely a _superior_ Rinnegan (close to a Rinnesharingan in appearance and power), but still not a Rinnesharingan.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 28, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The manga, DB4, Boruto, and novels all unanimously refer to it as a Rinnegan.
> 
> It is definitely a _superior_ Rinnegan (close to a Rinnesharingan in appearance and power), but still not a Rinnesharingan.



From my understanding, the term rinnesharingan was never used in the anime or manga, only in a databook. I am not stuck on the term rinnesharingan, my point is that Sasuke's eye is definitely different from a *normal* rinnegan.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 28, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> From my understanding, the term rinnesharingan was never used in the anime or manga, only in a databook. I am not stuck on the term rinnesharingan, my point is that Sasuke's eye is definitely different from a *normal* rinnegan.



That I agree on.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 28, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That I agree on.



And therefor, it stands to reason that you can't automatically attribute feats accomplished in a one off scenario by the already outlier eye to a normal rinnegan.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 28, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> And therefor, it stands to reason that you can't automatically attribute feats accomplished in a one off scenario by the already outlier eye to a normal rinnegan.



Agree with that too. Besides, even if they were the exact same Dojutsu, Sasuke's feats would not necessarily apply to Nagato for the same reason Itachi's feats with MS don't necessarily apply to Sasuke with MS (or vice versa).

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## Charisma (Oct 28, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So, even though there is a clear visible difference you just ignore that? We have seen multiple samples of the Rinnegan. It's like the Byakugan. It looks ONE way. Then there is a different variant called the rinnesharingan that Sasuke and Madara have. Am I missing something or are we just pretending to very different things are the same thing?


The only "clear visible difference" is that he can use his Sharingan powers through the Rinnegan. That's it. And even the extent of that is dubious. Sasuke alludes that the Rinnegan can cast genjutsu itself ("Rinnegan can probably counter Rinnegan genjutsu"). Hagoromo was not surprised at the Rinnegan being able to cast genjutsu (Sasuke against the Tailed Beasts). He knows that regular Rinnegan can dispel Infinite Tsukuyomi. Madara can still use Susanoo and discern clones from the original with the Rinnegan, the latter of which he attributed to his Sharingan prowess.

So, yes, I am going to ignore something that isn't there. None of the characters treat Sasuke's Rinnegan as any different. When they talk about the Rinnegan and genjutsu, they talk about the Rinnegan in general. You can bring up a visual difference, but at the end of the day, not a single source material, including the Databook, even hints at a differentiation between Sasuke's eye from Hagoromo's or Madara's as Rinnegan. All we have is a visual, artistic difference. That's nothing concrete at all.

And to be clear, as you seem aware of, Sasuke's eye is not actually a RinneSharingan. Only the third eye is called that in the Databook, whereas Sasuke's is merely referred to as Rinnegan on multiple occasions in the book and by all characters in the story.

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## MHA massive fan (Oct 28, 2022)

Shocked this has lasted 8 pages

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Oct 29, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Shocked this has lasted 8 pages


Same. This is way too clearcut. Itachi just has too many answers and ways of applying pressure.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Neutral 1 | Disagree 1


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