# Gaara vs. Toph



## Karma Monster (Feb 15, 2009)

Made because, now that I think about it, my last thread isn't even a real fight.

This fight is in Naruto verse. They are on solid, plain ground.


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## Onomatopoeia (Feb 15, 2009)

Toph uses bloodbending to make Gaara's head explode.

No, I don't know how she could do that either, she's just awesome like that.

Kazekage Gaara or Chunin exams Gaara?  With or without the Shukaku?


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## Karma Monster (Feb 15, 2009)

Kazekage Gaara.

...I'll give him the Shukaku. I can't make it too easy for Toph.


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## Narcissus (Feb 15, 2009)

Easy for Toph?



You must be joking!  Gaara's sand control is far superior to Toph's earth bending, especially since he can turn earth into sand, which she can't do anything with.

Gaara rapestomps this with ease.


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## Herekic (Feb 15, 2009)

what gaara did in his post-skip fight>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any feat toph has ever shown.


his control rapestomps hers. she dies horribly.


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## Karma Monster (Feb 15, 2009)

Toph can sandbend. Watch the finale.

@the laughing person-I was exaggerating her awesomeness. This wouldn't be easy for either of them.

I love how you guys get all passionate and snarky about this. You know I don't CARE. XD


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## Herekic (Feb 15, 2009)

> Toph can sandbend. Watch the finale.



I have, and I'm aware of what she can do.

he still trumps her horribly.



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he did that in an open, grassy plain sorrounded by forest.



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compare that to the buildings below



> love how you guys get all passionate and snarky about this. You know I don't CARE. XD





then why are you posting here


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## Narcissus (Feb 15, 2009)

> Toph can sandbend. Watch the finale.



Already have, and what she did is nothing compared to Gaara, not to mention she is not at her best when standing on sand.



> @the laughing person-I was exaggerating her awesomeness. This wouldn't be easy for either of them.



Toph is an awesome character, but it WOOULD be easy for Gaara to crush her completely.



> I love how you guys get all passionate and snarky about this. You know I don't CARE. XD



What on earth are you babbling about?  Not once in my post was I "snarky."  I simply found it funny that you even thought Toph had any chance of winning this.  Truly amising.


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## White Knight (Feb 15, 2009)

this is a tough argument but id go with toph because she can also bend metal gara has only got sand so if their at any village besides the sand then toph would have a little advantage


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## Herekic (Feb 15, 2009)

> his is a tough argument but id go with toph because she can also bend metal gara has only got sand so if their at any village besides the sand then toph would have a little advantage



how would that help her in any way?


garra is going to drop a few hundred tons of sand on her before she can do much of anything


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## Yagami1211 (Feb 15, 2009)

Wow someone hates Toph here.


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## Banhammer (Feb 15, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Easy for Toph?
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Is this really agravating sarcasm or just pure honnesty?


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## Karma Monster (Feb 15, 2009)

I posted this to entertain myself, not because I'm passionate about it. Why else? *facepalm* 

@Narcissus- Why are you assuming that Toph has no chance? She has some great feats. even if she didn't win, she'd hold her own.

And Toph and Gaara are on solid ground, not sand.

If Toph can bend sand, then she won't get stomped. Gaara may still win (I haven't analyzed this) but it wouldn't be a stomp.


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## Narcissus (Feb 15, 2009)

> Is this really agravating sarcasm or just pure honnesty?



Whatever Toph can do  with sand, it utterlly pales in comparison to Gaara, and her vision is "fuzzy" when standing on sand.  In other words, Gaara is the worse opponent she could face.

So it doesn't matter what she can do with the sand.  Note that you gave absolutely no argument in her favor, at all.


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## Pintsize (Feb 15, 2009)

If Toph metalbends a shell around herself, Garaa may not be able to do anything to her. With Kimmimaro, he had to push him 200 meters underground, where he was unable to move. Toph wouldn't have that problem.

Not that Toph has anyway to catch a flying Garaa.


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## Herekic (Feb 15, 2009)

> @Narcissus- Why are you assuming that Toph has no chance? She has some great feats. even if she didn't win, she'd hold her own.
> 
> And Toph and Gaara are on solid ground, not sand.
> 
> If Toph can bend sand, then she won't get stomped. Gaara may still win (I haven't analyzed this) but it wouldn't be a stomp.



she does have some nice feats. but nothing even approaching what gaara can do.


yes, she can bend sand. and it means absolutely nothing, as gaara's power over it totally dwarfs hers.


just because she can do some of what he can, doesn't mean she can do it on a level equal to his. this is crucial to why she will die horribly.



also, gaara's sand flies, remember?


toph reads movements through the ground to tell whats coming her way. for bending, she reads the mvoes the oppnent sued to bend, and thus can know what they did.

gaara does not move an inch while using his sand, and his sand stays airborne.


she will literally not even see it coming.


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## Karma Monster (Feb 15, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Whatever Toph can do  with sand, it utterlly pales in comparison to Gaara, and her vision is "fuzzy" when standing on sand.  In other words, Gaara is the worse opponent she could face.
> 
> So it doesn't matter what she can do with the sand.  Note that you gave absolutely no argument in her favor, at all.



Her vision isn't fuzzy anymore. She had little to no trouble seeing on sand in the finale.

I didn't give an argument in either of their favor, because I haven't looked into this. I'm not debating. I don't care who would win this. I don't *know* who wins this.
I was curious, and so I made this thread to see the responses. I have no opinion on this.


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## Narcissus (Feb 15, 2009)

^

I was replying to Banhammer, not you.


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## Karma Monster (Feb 15, 2009)

Narcissus said:


>



Facepalm? Really?

When I saw this image, I thought: 'kay, gaara wins. But since I wasn't really disagreeing that he could win in the first place, why facepalm? 

Sorry, didn't know you were replying to Banhammer on that last post.


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## Darth Nihilus (Feb 15, 2009)

Wow, just wow.


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## Narcissus (Feb 15, 2009)

Anything else?


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## Estrecca (Feb 15, 2009)

So let's make a breakdown:

-Despite Toph's much improved ability to bend sand, Gaara can control a greater amount of material (greater than even the blocks of stone that Bumi manipulated during the eclipse).

-If Gaara goes for high ground, Toph is going to be unable to see him, period, unless Gaara decides to start speaking. Moreover, his ability to remotely manipulate the ground is going to be merry hell for Toph's "vision".

-Toph has no defense against the Sand Coffin.

Conclusion: Toph loses. Badly.


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## Banhammer (Feb 15, 2009)

That or, Gaara caries a block of eart in his back that he has saw in the begining of the fight.
She can sense airborne projectiles allright, not that she needed to, so she cruses Gaara within his own armor.
Gaara looses. Badly.

It's like having Iron Man vs Magneto.


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## Banhammer (Feb 15, 2009)

Narcissus said:


>



Toph outbends that in sludge alone, also, turn all the sand into rock with just a little imagination in far less time than what it takes for gaara to make some, completly and effectivly castrating him.
What else?


Also, something I have out-tard really quick

Gaara manipulates his chakra. Chakra, being manipulated manipulates earth.
Toph's abilities are tied to the earth directly itself.
Toph control and jurisidiction>Gaara.
If Toph tells the earth to go down and gaara tells his chakra to tel the earth to go up, make no mistake, Gaara will be ignored.


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## Narcissus (Feb 15, 2009)

> Toph outbends that in sludge alone, also, turn all the sand into rock with just a little imagination in far less time than what it takes for gaara to make some, completly and effectivly castrating him.
> What else?



Please tell me when Toph ever consumed a large section of a forest with sludge, or anything for that matter.



> Gaara manipulates his chakra. Chakra, being manipulated manipulates earth.
> Toph's abilities are tied to the earth directly itself.
> Toph control and jurisidiction>Gaara.
> If Toph tells the earth to go down and gaara tells his chakra to tel the earth to go up, make no mistake, Gaara will be ignored.



Where in the world did you get that logic from?  Benders manipulate the elements through their chi energy and martial arts, not naturally.  It was why Aang was able to use energybending on Ozai.  If what you are saying was true, Toph would have feats superior to Gaara's, but she does not.

Toph has never bent as much earth as what Gaara is displaying in the scans I posted.  In fact, she was captured by the Dai Lee, who were using some rocks.

Make no mistake, she will lose this match horribly.


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## Ippy (Feb 15, 2009)

1. Gaara fights two ways, by standing still or by hovering on sand.  Either way, Toph would be trying to fight a guy she cannot "see"...

2. Gaara's control of sand greatly trumps hers.

3. Nothing she throws at him can get past Suna no Tate or Suna no Yoroi.

4. Sabaku Kyu ---> Sabaku Sousou --->  Toph


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## Darth Nihilus (Feb 15, 2009)

It almost sounds like you're saying that Gaara is an Earthbender.


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## Banhammer (Feb 15, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Please tell me when Toph ever consumed a large section of a forest with sludge, or anything for that matter.


He's not consuming anything on that pannel he's making a wall. Even the siege has more conforting feats-



> Where in the world did you get that logic from?  Benders manipulate the elements through their chi energy and martial arts, not naturally.  It was why Aang was able to use energybending on Ozai.  If what you are saying was true, Toph would have feats superior to Gaara's, but she does not.


The mechanics of earthbending are very well explain throughout all the series.
Benders are mistically atuned with that element of the earth, but their power is not a third party controlling, or a technique they can just learn, much like Ninjutsus (wich are Gaara's).
They're much like magical mutants, while Gaara is about as much of a terrakinetic as a man with a flamethrower is a pyrokine.
What Aang does, feasible since he is the Avatar of the Earth itself, is to shut Oozai's allignment away. His ability to tap on his power. If what he did was bend his energy away, then he'dd just regenerate it.

The same way a bender can't functionally control a logia, a ninja can't controll a bender. It's simplistically called, a matter of jurisdiction.


> Toph has never bent as much earth as what Gaara is displaying in the scans I posted.  In fact, she was captured by the Dai Lee, who were using some rocks.


In part 2 Gaara is given ample time and a whole desert to play with. Here he fights in *solid ground*. By the time he uncorks his gourd, he allready has an earth spike through his head, made from his own sand
Also, Toph being caught by several people elitly trained with the same powers as her somewhat little after she joined the cast hardly counts as an argument against her.


> Make no mistake, she will lose this match horribly.


Generic coment is generic. Bored now.


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## Banhammer (Feb 15, 2009)

The MMAthematician said:


> 1. Gaara fights two ways, by standing still or by hovering on sand.  Either way, Toph would be trying to fight a guy she cannot "see"...


She has displayed the ability to sense either way. Standing still is not an effective was to hide from her, by a longshot, and gaara dosen't hover unless he has too.
Hover on a bigass chunk of Earth, while covered on earth I might add, wich she knows and sees him trying to hover on.
Turn the earth she needs not to see into rock and watching him crash and crack his eath for great lulz


> 2. Gaara's control of sand greatly trumps hers.


Or not. Second party trumps third party.
See it this way. Imagine Gaara's top sand ability involved manipulating four blocks of sand.
Toph's ability allows her to manipulate two blocks of sand at best.
There is three blocks of sand in this field.
Toph gets two, gaara get's whatever it's left untill it amounts to four.
The amount of sand she can bend against the amount of sand Gaara bends is certainly arguable, but that she does not have to fight for the one she has is not.
And gara dosen't start this fight with much sand at all.
Also, Toph can turn sand into rock wich Gaara canot fuck with.


> 3. Nothing she throws at him can get past Suna no Tate or Suna no Yoroi.


Except if she decides to through the Suna no Tate or Suna no Yoroi against him.
If he even got to that step. Wich he won't


> 4. Sabaku Kyu ---> Sabaku Sousou --->  Toph





			
				Banhammer said:
			
		

> If he even got to that step. Wich he won't


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## Herekic (Feb 15, 2009)

> He's not consuming anything on that pannel he's making a wall. Even the siege has more conforting feats-



move on to the page after that one.

that sand covers the whole landscape as far as we can see.




> The mechanics of earthbending are very well explain throughout all the series.
> Benders are mistically atuned with that element of the earth, but their power is not a third party controlling, or a technique they can just learn, much like Ninjutsus (wich are Gaara's).
> They're much like magical mutants, while Gaara is about as much of a terrakinetic as a man with a flamethrower is a pyrokine.
> What Aang does, feasible since he is the Avatar of the Earth itself, is to shut Oozai's allignment away. His ability to tap on his power. If what he did was bend his energy away, then he'dd just regenerate it.
> ...




the mechanics don't matter. the issue here is, one way or another, he can exert control over sand. 

and the control he has exerted is more powerful then what she has been shown able to do.

rememebr katara and the old lady's fight? when two people try to control the same thing, the stronger one will overpower the weaker.

it doesn't matter how he does it, gaara can exert much more power over the sand then toph can. 





> In part 2 Gaara is given ample time and a whole desert to play with. Here he fights in solid ground. By the time he uncorks his gourd, he allready has an earth spike through his head, made from his own sand
> Also, Toph being caught by several people elitly trained with the same powers as her somewhat little after she joined the cast hardly counts as an argument against her.




lol@toph blitzing gaara with a spike. toph and aang together could not even pin down powerless azula.

gaara's reaction speed>tophs. rememebr in the chunin exams when he used the split second of lee wincing in pain to totally escape him in mid-air? and that was gaara years ago.

gaara can react with his own powers way before toph can do what you said.

you forget gaara is superhuman in more then just his powerset.








> In part 2 Gaara is given ample time and a whole desert to play with. Here he fights in solid ground. By the time he uncorks his gourd, he allready has an earth spike through his head, made from his own sand
> Also, Toph being caught by several people elitly trained with the same powers as her somewhat little after she joined the cast hardly counts as an argument against her.



yea, like how he fought on a wide, lush grassy plain in the middle of a forest against kimmi.

he manually created enough sand to cover the landscape.


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## Narcissus (Feb 15, 2009)

> He's not consuming anything on that pannel he's making a wall. Even the siege has more conforting feats-



Wait what?  Have you read Gaara's fight with Kimimaro? O_o



> The mechanics of earthbending are very well explain throughout all the series.
> Benders are mistically atuned with that element of the earth, but their power is not a third party controlling, or a technique they can just learn, much like Ninjutsus (wich are Gaara's).
> They're much like magical mutants, while Gaara is about as much of a terrakinetic as a man with a flamethrower is a pyrokine.
> What Aang does, feasible since he is the Avatar of the Earth itself, is to shut Oozai's allignment away. His ability to tap on his power. If what he did was bend his energy away, then he'dd just regenerate it.
> ...



Toph has never been shown to bend the amount of sand that Gaara has, so even if what you're saying is true, Gaara can simply overwhelm her.



> In part 2 Gaara is given ample time and a whole desert to play with. Here he fights in solid ground. By the time he uncorks his gourd, he allready has an earth spike through his head, made from his own sand
> Also, Toph being caught by several people elitly trained with the same powers as her somewhat little after she joined the cast hardly counts as an argument against her.



Gaara can create sand from the grond with a clap of his hands, as shown in the first scan I posted.



> Generic coment is generic. Bored now.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sP_5Gt49Ts[/YOUTUBE]


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## Banhammer (Feb 15, 2009)

Herekic said:


> move on to the page after that one.
> 
> that sand covers the whole landscape as far as we can see.



I'm not doubting Gaara's exponential growth of sand. Don't need to doubt his ability to do something he won't.



> the mechanics don't matter. the issue here is, one way or another, he can exert control over sand.
> 
> and the control he has exerted is more powerful then what she has been shown able to do.
> 
> ...



Of course it matters, it matters imensly. If an evenly powerfull Hidrokine and Telekine fight for the controll of a puddle of water, who do you think it's going to win?
Now, gaara might even have greater scale feats, but Toph packs as much or more punch with a pound of earth as Gaara with the same amount.
Hama and Katara fought on the same level, with the same powerup, and with same jurisdiction over water. Then the only difrent factor between them, the power prevailed. But Katara did not have the jurisdiction advantage over hama that Toph has here.



> lol@toph blitzing gaara with a spike. toph and aang together could not even pin down powerless azula.
> 
> gaara's reaction speed>tophs. rememebr in the chunin exams when he used the split second of lee wincing in pain to totally escape him in mid-air? and that was gaara years ago.
> 
> ...


Gaara's weakness is that his lack of speed could be exploited, Toph's strength is that she can predict movements.
Also, Chuunin exam speed is so lulzworthy it's not even on Avatar season One level. Chuunins runing speed feats through trees and whatnot were being just as easly replicated by people on Jet level.
Who then got outspeeded by an earthbender beneath Toph.
And Azula? You wanna bring azula into this? Bitch was on par and above with guys able to react to natural lightning.
So pay a litte more atention, and forget about abstract and arbitrary speed of Lee, who fighted a guy whose defensive powers work defensivly (yes, that is on purpose) and pre-emptivly with no conection to his will. In fact, they worked against his will if necessary. No reaction there. (they're actually pretty explicit how Gaara could not react to Lee, who again, has no speed that you can bring into this debate)
Speaking of Gara's relevant superhuman feats... He has none. He is specially known for being a ninjutsu bomber, with no taijutsu to his name.
Like I'm saying from the begining of this fight, Gaara's power is his own weaknes, Toph makes his weapons his coffin.





> yea, like how he fought on a wide, lush grassy plain in the middle of a forest against kimmi.
> 
> he manually created enough sand to cover the landscape.


Yeah, the day he manipulated a fuckton of sand, but he never had to fight anyone for the controll of it?
Gets pwned long before he gets the chance to make a whole lot of indirect manipulation

Ever heard the saying "You can stop a train with a well placed feather?"
Well, Gaara is covered with feathers up to his ass in his fight, and while he's got the amount, Toph's got the strength.


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## Banhammer (Feb 15, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Wait what?  Have you read Gaara's fight with Kimimaro? O_o


Probably long before you have 
This is a confession, not a bragging.



> Toph has never been shown to bend the amount of sand that Gaara has, so even if what you're saying is true, Gaara can simply overwhelm her.


With what? He needs at least a grain wich toph won't give him if she dosen't want to, and he dies before he gets to that


> Gaara can create sand from the grond with a clap of his hands, as shown in the first scan I posted.


No, no, no, Gaara grasps his sand, even if just a grain, and he breaks rock with it, making other grains, and then controlls those grains and breaks more rock to make more grains, etc... He explains this.
He needs sand to make sand. If he has none, he's helpless. unless you count filler. He seems pretty skilled with a ninja yoyo.



> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sP_5Gt49Ts[/YOUTUBE]


[/QUOTE]


> You must spread reputation before giving it to Narcissus again





I think of this scene so many times while watching "How I met your mother"


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## Herekic (Feb 15, 2009)

> I'm not doubting Gaara's exponential growth of sand. Don't need to doubt his ability to do something he won't.



well of course he won't, as he'd have no need to. she would not live that long.





> Of course it matters, it matters imensly. If an evenly powerfull Hidrokine and Telekine fight for the controll of a puddle of water, who do you think it's going to win?
> Now, gaara might even have greater scale feats, but Toph packs as much or more punch with a pound of earth as Gaara with the same amount.
> Hama and Katara fought on the same level, with the same powerup, and with same jurisdiction over water. Then the only difrent factor between them, the power prevailed. But Katara did not have the jurisdiction advantage over hama that Toph has here.




not only does gaara have far more raw power then toph(remember when he slammed lee into the wall with a stream of sand? just lee's back hittign the wall made a big crater in it), he has also shown much finer control. when was the last time toph created fine shapes out of her bending material? gaara maks shuriken, clones, arms and even a full sized statue.

so not only does he outclass her in raw power, but his fine control is better too.

and why would toph have jurisdiction here?

toph controls earth. gaara uses a special energy that can manipulate sand. 

just because toph is controlling the thing directly does not automatically give her the advantage, especially not when gaara has shown both more power and skill in his use.


and on top of all this, gaara has the standard superhuman reaction times of narutoverse characters.

so not only can he come at her with more power and finnesse then she has, but he can also do it much faster. she tries to bend his sand, he will react and conter before she even realize he did anything.






> eah, the day he manipulated a fuckton of sand, but he never had to fight anyone for the controll of it?
> Gets pwned long before he gets the chance to make a whole lot of indirect manipulation
> 
> Ever heard the saying "You can stop a train with a well placed feather?"
> Well, Gaara is covered with feathers up to his ass in his fight, and while he's got the amount, Toph's got the strength.




gaara has shown to outclass toph in power in every way. he not only bends far greater 
amounts then she can, but he is also more skilled in using it. she has absolutely nothing on him in terms of sand. her trying to fight him in a sandbending battle would be suicide. she'd be better off sticking to things he can't overpower her control over.


the problem with toph's "use gaara's weapon against him" strategy is that gaara is not only much stronger then her in the weapons use, but more skilled. then, you have to account for the fact he has superhuman reaction times.


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## Banhammer (Feb 15, 2009)

He bests her in control because he calls spit sized balls shurikens and bunshing?

Dude, Toph sandbent  a real scale sized copy of Ba Sing Se in one move, with individual citizen with all of their personal detais, with every rock and brick and house from memory, and at any single moment, she can hold imense palaces arguably on the scale of Gaara's greatest sand feats, in a single instant.
And a crack on a wall?
Really?

REALLY?
I find nothing else to be gained in this thread let alone on that post
Comon sense and obviousness choke on my heart before words can reach my fingers.
Leaving now.


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## Herekic (Feb 15, 2009)

> He bests her in control because he calls spit sized balls shurikens and bunshing?
> 
> Dude, Toph made a real scale sized copy of Ba Sing Se in one move, with individual citien with all of their personal detais, with every rocks and brick and house from memory.
> And a crack on a wall?
> ...



doing that while relaxing casually and doing that in the middle of a fight are two diffreint things.

toph never does things like that in fights, likely because it would be too difficult to focus on that whiel in combat.


gaara makes these shapes in the middle of combat while usally also doing other things with his sand at the same time.

oh, and he also made a fully functional EYEBALL out of sand.


I also like how you just totally skipped over the rest of the argument. well done sir.


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## Banhammer (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok, then you're wrong, he does not, and you're wrong.
I'm an OBD senior for damn well long enough to not to have to repeat the same feats on the same threads everytime they pop up, over and over again just so I can let the next guy know an answer to old OBD questions.


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## Herekic (Feb 15, 2009)

> k, then you're wrong, he does not, and you're wrong.
> I'm an OBD senior for damn well long enough to not to have to repeat the same feats on the same threads everytime they pop up, over and over again..



every feat brought up supports gaara being more powerful then her.


your only argument is that because she controls earth directly, she can somehow get past this fact.

as in use her sand against him before he can do anythign with it, despite the fact he should have much faster reaction speeds then her(and just about every other kind of speed)




gaara has more power then her, and he has superhuman reflexes and reaction times on top of that.


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## Narcissus (Feb 15, 2009)

I know how Gaara creates his sand, but he does it extremely fast, with a mere clap.  He used the minimal amount of sand he had to create enough to swallow a large section of a forest in seconds.  Toph can try to bend all she wants, but she'll be overwhelmed and buried alive.  Desert Requiem will end it.

And yeah, I thought you might like that little vid. 
To be honest, I wondered if you were quoting her.


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## The777Man (Feb 15, 2009)

Gaara owns for reasons I shouldn't even have to explain.


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## ipakmann (Feb 15, 2009)

THE ULTIMATE said:


> Gaara owns for reasons I shouldn't even have to explain.


No just no


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## neodragzero (Feb 15, 2009)

...Gaara wins. The moment you claim that a character with retardedly lesser feats wins a bout, you are in serious denial. He's better in scale and so on. It's obvious. He's at a level she can only dream of reaching.


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## Herekic (Feb 15, 2009)

> ..Gaara wins. The moment you claim that a character with retardedly lesser feats wins a bout, you are in serious denial. He's better in scale and so on. It's obvious. He's at a level she can only dream of reaching.



no no no, you don't understand.

see, just because gaara has shown to be more powerful then toph, and has superhuman reflexes and reaction times, doesn't mean he would horribly stomp her.


after all, she, uh...wait, where was I going with this?


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## Commander Shepard (Feb 16, 2009)

Didn't Kimminaro, whose skin/bones were as hard as steel, last through a few attacks from Gaara?

So if Toph covers herself in steel armor, she may have a chance.

She still probably loses, though.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 16, 2009)

Lyncher3190 said:


> this is a tough argument but id go with toph because she can also bend metal gara has only got sand so if their at any village besides the sand then toph would have a little advantage



How does that help her in any way? Gaara made a freakin TSUNAMI of sand in a forest surronded by trees. Show me 1 feet that Toph has done that can beat Gaara


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## Marth6789 (Feb 16, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Didn't Kimminaro, whose s*kin/bones were as hard as steel,* last through a few attacks from Gaara?
> 
> So if Toph covers herself in steel armor, she may have a chance.
> 
> She still probably loses, though.



His bones were harder than steel.


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## Commander Shepard (Feb 16, 2009)

And they allowed him to survive a while.  So, Kimminaro's bones were harder than steel, but not hard enough for a comparison with a much harder substance.  Steel armor, or perhaps titanium armor, could allow Toph a few minutes.  But she still loses.


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## Herekic (Feb 16, 2009)

> And they allowed him to survive a while. So, Kimminaro's bones were harder than steel, but not hard enough for a comparison with a much harder substance. Steel armor, or perhaps titanium armor, could allow Toph a few minutes. But she still loses.




kimmi had to make extra bone "masks" under the skin of his whole body. he said had he not, he'd have been crushed. and even then, he still bled alot from the attack, he wasn't unaffected

so yea, gaara can even crush kimmi's steel bones. 




also where would toph get a ready supply of titanium?


----------



## Commander Shepard (Feb 16, 2009)

If she had titanium or a comparably resilient metal, she would stand a chance.

Otherwise Gaara wins that much faster.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Feb 16, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Didn't Kimminaro, whose skin/bones were as hard as steel, last through a few attacks from Gaara?
> 
> So if Toph covers herself in steel armor, she may have a chance.
> 
> She still probably loses, though.



And where does the steel come in? She would have to have metal in order to do that, would she not?


----------



## kageyame (Feb 16, 2009)

Well, just putting my 2cents, (not that I think that this will change much the outcome of the battle...)

1) Toph did hold a whole castle from sinking under the sand for quite a while, and the castle/Library was f*ing huge. So simply say "she would be buried lololol" is not as simple

2) why people keep talking about steel armor, in many instances we see avatar (and Toph being a more competent bender more likely could do it to.), create an Emerald Like Shield (is that really Emerald or some Cristal is unknown...)


That being said, is probable that Gaara, due to his training and specially if he still have Shukaku is able to overpower her, but I don't think it will  as simple as many here is making out to be.


----------



## Kai (Feb 16, 2009)

Once Gaara realizes levitation is all that is required to win, Toph will be forced to attack with a costing disconnection in her senses.

Even worse with Shukaku in play Gaara has perfect freedom to resort to bijuu powers, causing this fight to no longer be a competition on earth manipulation.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Feb 16, 2009)

> Didn't Kimminaro, whose skin/bones were as hard as steel, last through a few attacks from Gaara?



Last through a few attacks nothing, he tanked them all. He would have killed Gaara if his TB hadn't killed him first.


----------



## nordic (Feb 16, 2009)

Desert Coffin ends it...Gaara wins


----------



## ipakmann (Feb 16, 2009)

Toph wins this 

Greater control (bending) > Limited control ( limited amount of charkra)


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## Senbonzakura (Feb 17, 2009)

gaara's sand is faster than toph and shukaku is  the sand spirite which has control over the sand wayyyyy better than toph so gaara stomps with shukaku.


----------



## Pintsize (Feb 17, 2009)

Actually, in terms of control, I'd say Toph controls earth and sand much better than Garaa, if only in smaller amounts. She can turn earth into sand or dust, and vice versa, while Garaa has a protective layer of sand over his skin, Toph often has a protective layer of solid earth, or at times crystal, which would presumably be harder to mold due to its greater cohesion and mass, she can bend the earth in steel. Also, she's been able to get immense strength from sand, something that is her weak element, to the point where she was able to stop a gigantic library being pulled under the ground.

If anything, my question is this: what would Garaa do to Toph if he covered her in sand? She could just meld it back to earth, and use it as a protective skin. It's possible that he could never successfully put her in a desert coffin, at least if the amount of sand he used to attack Deidara (at one time, not the total amount of sand floating in the air) was any indication. She's bent that much earth at one time casually just running toward the earth kingdom's capitol near the end of season 2.


----------



## Agmaster (Feb 17, 2009)

Desert COffin....won't hurt her.  Even if she doesn't do so prematurely, soon as the dirt touches her, she will be in control of it..even if only to disperse it.  Also...Gaara floats....on sand right?

Yeah, I'm with Ban here.  Gaara just happened to have a more violent medium to show off in.  Toph with any sense of seriousness rapes.


----------



## Vynjira (Feb 17, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Gaara manipulates his chakra. Chakra, being manipulated manipulates earth.
> Toph's abilities are tied to the earth directly itself.
> *Toph control and jurisidiction>Gaara.*


Similarly, Toph tells the Earth what to do then the Charka tells the Earth what to do giving Gaara the greater jurisdiction...

Kinda like Local Government that is most directly involved has less authority than the Federal Government...
*Spoiler*: _Or_ 



you play

then on my turn I cast

Even tho you own the permanent, I still gain control of it via a spell.


Hell Puppet Master controls people thru the dolls he creates.. 
By your logic; People have direct control over their own bodies. The Puppet Master cannot then control those people thru his dolls.

So I'm just wondering where you get the idea Toph has jurisdiction over Gaara?


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Feb 17, 2009)

Stop it. 
Stop it right now.
Avatar Vs Naruto Threads always bring out the worst in people. 
Stop it.

The above is just my opinion, and in no way is true cannon.


----------



## ipakmann (Feb 17, 2009)

.....So yeah Toph is the winner

FYI Shukaku is a wind spirit 

someone please prove that the released Shukaku can do sand attacks because all i saw were air bullets. :/


----------



## Gunners (Feb 17, 2009)

Gaara would beat the shit out of her.

someone please prove that the released Shukaku can do sand attacks because all i saw were air bullets. :/ 

He wrapped Naruto in sand. A wind Bullet would kill Toph anyway.


----------



## Narcissus (Feb 17, 2009)

ipakmann said:


> .....So yeah Toph is the winner
> 
> FYI Shukaku is a wind spirit
> 
> someone please prove that the released Shukaku can do sand attacks because all i saw were air bullets. :/



Bullshit.  Gaara clearly won this match.

In fact, I'll go ahead and add this to his list of wins in the OBD wiki.


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## ipakmann (Feb 17, 2009)

Hanabishi Recca said:


> Gaara would beat the shit out of her.
> 
> someone please prove that the released Shukaku can do sand attacks because all i saw were air bullets. :/
> 
> He wrapped Naruto in sand. A wind Bullet would kill Toph anyway.


That was halve released I mean the full body tankui form that fought Gamma

Also Gaara is to limited both in move set and in tactics to defeats Toph 
what's next Gaara vs Terra??????


----------



## ipakmann (Feb 17, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Bullshit.  Gaara clearly won this match.
> 
> In fact, I'll go ahead and add this to his list of wins in the OBD wiki.



Okay but our info will be invalid. Also there is still no proof that Gaara is is better terrakentic than Toph also he can run out of Charkra, Toph can't run out of bending so this whole argument makes no sense.


----------



## Agmaster (Feb 17, 2009)

You realize Avatar bloodlusted is...a different series than canon avatar?  Just saying people think that Avatarverse is soft, but when it coes to OBD they get auto BL.  That buff is sick, like I mean technically what's stopping Toph from ending most fights with a wiggled pinkie toe.  And if she has that much control with such a tertiary limb, actual stance shifts and focus should have an enchanced effect not unlike Byakuy using his hands to control SBZ.  The point is I see Toph having more control over the sand than Gaara.

It is ONLY debatable because Toph in season 1 or 2 displayed a lack of skill with sand.


----------



## neodragzero (Feb 17, 2009)

Pintsize said:


> Actually, in terms of control, I'd say Toph controls earth and sand much better than Garaa, if only in smaller amounts. She can turn earth into sand or dust, and vice versa, while Garaa has a protective layer of sand over his skin, Toph often has a protective layer of solid earth, or at times crystal, which would presumably be harder to mold due to its greater cohesion and mass, she can bend the earth in steel. Also, she's been able to get immense strength from sand, something that is her weak element, to the point where she was able to stop a gigantic library being pulled under the ground.
> 
> If anything, my question is this: what would Garaa do to Toph if he covered her in sand? She could just meld it back to earth, and use it as a protective skin. It's possible that he could never successfully put her in a desert coffin, at least if the amount of sand he used to attack Deidara (at one time, not the total amount of sand floating in the air) was any indication. She's bent that much earth at one time casually just running toward the earth kingdom's capitol near the end of season 2.



...How exactly does she earthbend when she can't move? Restraining her bodily movements leaves her pretty blown. Unless you guys have a shot of her earthbending without being able to use her limbs.


----------



## Narcissus (Feb 17, 2009)

Agmaster said:


> You realize Avatar bloodlusted is...a different series than canon avatar?  Just saying people think that Avatarverse is soft, but when it coes to OBD they get auto BL.  That buff is sick, like I mean technically what's stopping Toph from ending most fights with a wiggled pinkie toe.  And if she has that much control with such a tertiary limb, actual stance shifts and focus should have an enchanced effect not unlike Byakuy using his hands to control SBZ.  The point is I see Toph having more control over the sand than Gaara.
> 
> It is ONLY debatable because Toph in season 1 or 2 displayed a lack of skill with sand.



And I say unto you, you are wrong.  Gaara will win with a mere clap of his hands by burying her alive and then crushing her.  She dies because his feats are far greater.


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## Senbonzakura (Feb 17, 2009)

hello the sand protects him on its will  so toph cant control whats protecting him on its own plus shukaku is a sand sprite cus dont u remember wat gamabunta called him? he called him ''shukaku the sand spirite''


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## Commander Shepard (Feb 17, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> ...How exactly does she earthbend when she can't move? Restraining her bodily movements leaves her pretty blown. Unless you guys have a shot of her earthbending without being able to use her limbs.



Except, what's restraining her happens to be earth.  Which she can tear free from.

[DB]_Bleach_207_[2A3BA5FC].avi

The fact that Toph is an earthbender gives her a better chance against Gaara than other benders.  But she still loses.


----------



## Pintsize (Feb 17, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> ...How exactly does she earthbend when she can't move? Restraining her bodily movements leaves her pretty blown. Unless you guys have a shot of her earthbending without being able to use her limbs.



Garaa's sand covering you doesn't completely restrict movement, or else Deidara wouldn't have been able to eat his sand and reform it to clay. When it completely restricted Kimimaro's movements, it was because he was 200 meters underground, not because Garaa's sand was all around him. It's possible for benders to bend without their limbs: King Bumi did it. Not saying that means Toph automatically can, but seeing as she has more feats than Bumi does earthbending wise, I wouldn't call it unlikely.

But either way, she could just immediately cover herself with Earth, and that would give her breathing room against the sand.


----------



## Senbonzakura (Feb 17, 2009)

yea but gaara's sand is way faster than tophs earth and people are saying gaara has his sand armor when he really only has it wen the get through his sand


----------



## Herekic (Feb 17, 2009)

why is this thread still going?

gaara's feats of control and power>>tophs, so any of her trying ot use his sand agaisnt him would just be easily countered. 


and another thing people are not realizing is gaara is a ninja. ie, he has superhuman physical traits.


gaara's reflexes and reaction times>>>>>tophs. he can react to anything she does and counter it very easily.

also, gaara's sand is fast enough to hunt down ninjas. people with superhuman speed.


toph is dead. she will die before she really even gets do do much of anything.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Feb 17, 2009)

Redux-shika boo said:


> Stop it.
> Stop it right now.
> Avatar Vs Naruto Threads always bring out the worst in people.
> Stop it.
> ...



^^^ This. 

And


----------



## neodragzero (Feb 17, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Except, what's restraining her happens to be earth.  Which she can tear free from.
> 
> [DB]_Bleach_207_[2A3BA5FC].avi
> 
> The fact that Toph is an earthbender gives her a better chance against Gaara than other benders.  But she still loses.



Your pic isn't showing. There's a difference between Gaara making one of her arms explode and her being in the middle of simple earth material not trying to hurt her.


Pintsize said:


> Garaa's sand covering you doesn't completely restrict movement, or else Deidara wouldn't have been able to eat his sand and reform it to clay. When it completely restricted Kimimaro's movements, it was because he was 200 meters underground, not because Garaa's sand was all around him. It's possible for benders to bend without their limbs: King Bumi did it. Not saying that means Toph automatically can, but seeing as she has more feats than Bumi does earthbending wise, I wouldn't call it unlikely.
> 
> But either way, she could just immediately cover herself with Earth, and that would give her breathing room against the sand.



Speaking of Deidara, what happened to one of his arms again?

Seriously, there's a difference between King Bumi being restrained in a hollow coffin that gives him room to move and a collapsing mass of sand that squeezes you to death. While Gaara in general can of course just simply destroy Toph's limbs.

Covering herself in earth doesn't mean much when Gaara still has the given capability to turn minerals in the surrounding area into sand with ease before the timeskip even happened. Easily bringing her up and clobbering at her with greater scale still gives him the win. Especially if he simply decides to make her go airborne and focus on battering upon her while she's mid air. He still has more options. The level of range and choice in placement of his body is still more varied.


----------



## Pintsize (Feb 17, 2009)

Deidara didn't have earth bending powers to stop the sand or turn it into Earth, though. With the amount of time that he gave Deidara, Toph should easily be able to break free.

Also, King Bumi wasn't able to move inside the coffin, when he got out, his arms were locked firmly against his sides. 

And I seriously doubt that he'd be able to hoist Toph into the air, as she could turn whatever sand was touching her into sandstone, breaking his control of it. I'm not arguing that he couldn't turn earth back into sand, but it takes more time for him to transmute earth to sand than it takes Toph to do the reverse, if the Kimimaro fight was any indication.


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## Narcissus (Feb 18, 2009)

Pintsize said:


> Deidara didn't have earth bending powers to stop the sand or turn it into Earth, though. With the amount of time that he gave Deidara, Toph should easily be able to break free.
> 
> Also, King Bumi wasn't able to move inside the coffin, when he got out, his arms were locked firmly against his sides.
> 
> And I seriously doubt that he'd be able to hoist Toph into the air, as she could turn whatever sand was touching her into sandstone, breaking his control of it. I'm not arguing that he couldn't turn earth back into sand, but it takes more time for him to transmute earth to sand than it takes Toph to do the reverse, if the Kimimaro fight was any indication.





Surely you jest.  With a mere clap Gaara creates enough sand to swallow a large section of a forest.  Toph doesn't do anything faster than him.  Also, bending-wise, Bumi is stronger than Toph; he bent an entire city, so she would only have her earth sense as an advage against Bumi.

You may wanna look at the two scans I posted again. 

Anything else?


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## neodragzero (Feb 18, 2009)

Pintsize said:


> Deidara didn't have earth bending powers to stop the sand or turn it into Earth, though. With the amount of time that he gave Deidara, Toph should easily be able to break free.


Toph doesn't fly. Gaara has no curiosity nor any reason in general to think beyond just collapsing sand upon her entire body and squeeze till the blood flows out. Crushing just an arm alone rather than simply enveloping the entire body is somewhat a PIS IMO.


> Also, King Bumi wasn't able to move inside the coffin, when he got out, his arms were locked firmly against his sides.


He was still able to make a movement, no matter how small. The coffin still gave him space to make a slight enough movement to earth bend. It's just as simple coffin rather than a substance shifting to cause him harm. Gaara on the other hand will be wrapping Toph in a moving mass of sand that left Kimimaro looking...the horrible way he did.


> And I seriously doubt that he'd be able to hoist Toph into the air, as she could turn whatever sand was touching her into sandstone, breaking his control of it.


A quick burst of sand to send her into the air. With what he has done in terms of scale, it's incredibly likely. Turning the sand he quickly hoist her upon into some clumps of dirt still leaves her airborne and open for a pummeling. 


> I'm not arguing that he couldn't turn earth back into sand, but it takes more time for him to transmute earth to sand than it takes Toph to do the reverse, if the Kimimaro fight was any indication.



He quickly made a landslide with a clap of the hands. He solidified it with a clap of the hands. Not exactly a lot of time and effort there. That's before the time skip.


----------



## Optimus Andrew (Feb 18, 2009)

How about gaara just floats up in the air where Toph cant see him, and just throws a few kunai or shuriken at her? Wouldnt that not kill her quick?


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## Pintsize (Feb 18, 2009)

> Toph doesn't fly. Gaara has no curiosity nor any reason in general to think beyond just collapsing sand upon her entire body and squeeze till the blood flows out. Crushing just an arm alone rather than simply enveloping the entire body is somewhat a PIS IMO.



Really? Not when Toph can control the same thing he does, without seals the way he can?

Also, he never seemed to use desert coffin or desert funeral immediately. Garaa usually seems to wait a few moments to play with his victims.



> He was still able to make a movement, no matter how small. The coffin still gave him space to make a slight enough movement to earth bend. It's just as simple coffin rather than a substance shifting to cause him harm. Gaara on the other hand will be wrapping Toph in a moving mass of sand that left Kimimaro looking...the horrible way he did.



It was a point in the episode that Bumi couldn't move inside the coffin, several people asked him how he did it. I think he said he might have wrinkled his forehead, or something.



> A quick burst of sand to send her into the air. With what he has done in terms of scale, it's incredibly likely. Turning the sand he quickly hoist her upon into some clumps of dirt still leaves her airborne and open for a pummeling.



Those "clumps of dirt" that Toph and Aang have used as armor have been strong enough to resist numerous firebending techniques that were able to match waterbending that could cut through steel like butter. I'd say they're at least comparable to Kimmimaro's skeleton.



> He quickly made a landslide with a clap of the hands. He solidified it with a clap of the hands. Not exactly a lot of time and effort there. That's before the time skip.



Garaa never solidifies sand, #1, and #2, it took the entire time of all the fighting before to make all the sand he used to make the landslide.


----------



## Herekic (Feb 18, 2009)

> Really? Not when Toph can control the same thing he does, without seals the way he can?
> 
> Also, he never seemed to use desert coffin or desert funeral immediately. Garaa usually seems to wait a few moments to play with his victims.



gaara uses sealf only fo specific things. he can control the sand without moving at all normally.


fyi, this would also majorly fuck with toph's sight, sicne she sees bending techniques using the movements the bender did in order to understand what he did.


some guy just standing completly still while attacking her would be a totally new experience.





> It was a point in the episode that Bumi couldn't move inside the coffin, several people asked him how he did it. I think he said he might have wrinkled his forehead, or something.




bumi can bend using only his neck and head. 






> Those "clumps of dirt" that Toph and Aang have used as armor have been strong enough to resist numerous firebending techniques that were able to match waterbending that could cut through steel like butter. I'd say they're at least comparable to Kimmimaro's skeleton.




What?

fire is not a solid object. it matching the water was a result of it being fire hittign water.

it does not automatically mean that the fire is somehow as "strong" as the water, it's a diffreint kind of force(in this case, heat) 


th rocks are a good defense from fire, because they are good against heat. thats it.





> Garaa never solidifies sand, #1, and #2, it took the entire time of all the fighting before to make all the sand he used to make the landslide.



#1: he does it ALL THE TIME. how do you think he stands on his sand? then you have his sand armor, the shukaku shield, and even his own auto-defense, when iot's struck by a piercing attack, cracks like a solid wall. 

#2 and exactly how long was that? kimmi launched some bones. gaara blocked, attacked kimmi back. then gaara revelas he has been making sand under the ground.


it did not take him long at all.


----------



## Pintsize (Feb 18, 2009)

> gaara uses sealf only fo specific things. he can control the sand without moving at all normally.
> 
> 
> fyi, this would also majorly fuck with toph's sight, sicne she sees bending techniques using the movements the bender did in order to understand what he did.
> ...



Think you're arguing under the impression that I think Toph can effectively attack Garaa. I don't.

That's why I don't talk about Garaa standing still at all.



> What?
> 
> fire is not a solid object. it matching the water was a result of it being fire hittign water.



And yet fire has cut through stone pillars like a knife before, and was blocked by those earth shells they protect themselves in. In short, in the Avatar verse, fire can be almost as much of a cutting force as steel can.



> it does not automatically mean that the fire is somehow as "strong" as the water, it's a diffreint kind of force(in this case, heat)
> 
> 
> th rocks are a good defense from fire, because they are good against heat. thats it.



In the last episode, fire was actually much stronger than water, due to the comet. Aang was able to survive against Ozai's fire for a while with a simple rock shield, and I don't have to elaborate on how destructive that was.

When he was in the rock ball, Ozai was shooting bursts of flame that were cutting rivets in the ground.  Didn't do anything to the rock Aang was using.



> #1: he does it ALL THE TIME. how do you think he stands on his sand? then you have his sand armor, the shukaku shield, and even his own auto-defense, when iot's struck by a piercing attack, cracks like a solid wall.



Thought he was talking about turning sand into sandstone. Woops.



> #2 and exactly how long was that? kimmi launched some bones. gaara blocked, attacked kimmi back. then gaara revelas he has been making sand under the ground.
> 
> 
> it did not take him long at all.



Hrm, seemed a lot longer in the anime.

Still, it's not instantaneous, like Toph's transmutations are.


----------



## neodragzero (Feb 18, 2009)

Pintsize said:


> Really? Not when Toph can control the same thing he does, without seals the way he can?


That's the thing though, he still can easily turn a way more massive amount of mineral into something he can use. He still has better feats in terms of scale and overall movement variety.


> Also, he never seemed to use desert coffin or desert funeral immediately. Garaa usually seems to wait a few moments to play with his victims.


He at least used desert coffin upon Deidara's arm in terms of how Deidara has flight to keep moving. If Deidara wasn't airborne and moving around so much, it's clear that Gaara would of just Desert Coffin his entire body anyway. For Gaara not to simply use such a simple but lethal attack as a given is more along the lines of PIS rather than CIS IMO.

But of course, even before the time skip, he always aims for:
Killerbee was just pretending.

While he still clearly wants to put the squeeze on Deidara but, again, the whole flying around thing makes it difficult.


> It was a point in the episode that Bumi couldn't move inside the coffin, several people asked him how he did it. I think he said he might have wrinkled his forehead, or something.


Like I said before, there's a difference between a simple coffin that gives him enough room to breath and actually see what's going on outside, and a collapsing mass that crushes you throughout the surface of your body with intent to kill.


> Those "clumps of dirt" that Toph and Aang have used as armor have been strong enough to resist numerous firebending techniques that were able to match waterbending that could cut through steel like butter. I'd say they're at least comparable to Kimmimaro's skeleton.


With Kimmimaro needing to produce more skel and general regen to keep going. Toph still uses the technique while in a setting surrounded in the substance she needs. Her performing the feat just as well while airborne isn't as easy a given. While a giant sand bijuu hand crushing down on her isn't exactly a good idea as that type of defense goes. Unless you want to suggest that such a huge mass can squeeze steel drastically smaller in scale. We're talking about a proverbial squeeze of two anvils upon an early Cold War era can of corn.


> Garaa never solidifies sand,



Killerbee was just pretending.

100 meters




> #1, and #2, *it took the entire time of all the fighting before to make all the sand he used to make the landslide.*


No, it doesn't.
100 meters
100 meters
100 meters
Killerbee was just pretending.
100 meters
Killerbee was just pretending.
Killerbee was just pretending.
Killerbee was just pretending.
Killerbee was just pretending.
Killerbee was just pretending.

There's no suggestion whatsoever that he was prepping before the landslide.

And again, we're using Kazekage Gaara here.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 18, 2009)

Okay, time to clean house.

Some people around here are just sticking a dong on a stick and calling it cake.. Really.
Gaara being stronger than Toph at earthbending is agravating, and prepare to be humiliated with one word
Metalbending
That's right. Toph's controll over strength is so fucking strong she can push the tiniest dust particles, many of wich unseen to the human eye, with enough strength to bend fucking steel.
Saying Gaara who'se crushing strength doesn't even stop Deidara's hand from making bombs is three kinds of ....dumb.
At any any any given point, Toph wins this match by snaping her fingers.
And that's one rape.
People claim Gaara has more subtle control over sand.
Oh my...
Comparing making pretty statues and shuriken, wich is something any earthbender has to be retarded consider a feat, Toph with a minor gesture builts AN* ENTIRE FUCKING CITY REPLICA.* Real city, with every fucking brick and citizen. Shuriken? Really ladies? As if she didn't playfully make those with meteor steel, known to be alot more durable than steel?
That's right OBD, toph treats something that far surpasses the durability of steel like playdo, only by using EARTH PARTICLES.
Gaara faster than toph.. 
You guys.
Gaara is a known slowpoke. He never mooves around, he just stays put and chucks alot of sand around. He has no good reaction feats. When he fights Lee, the pre-emptive nature of his powers is what saves him, wich in this fight, is what is giong to get him killed!
His best sand speed feat is chasing after Deidara, a running speed feat wich ass is kicked by stoph running at the same speed as Appa, a monster that flies through the world in a single day if needed in where narutoverse, top traveling speed takes thre days to get out of a forest.
So yeah.
Someone who who memorizes and knows every sing thing, and I do mean everything, lamps and people and pets in two days, and while having a range of a NY sized city, does so with with a carefulness of sensing ants and shifts in heartbeats, and spends her entire life, always planing mooves long before the battle even starts getting outmooved by Gaara?
Be still my beating heart:face

People claim Gaara can make tsunamis of sand by claping his hands.
Said like that, it sounds like another kind of dumb. Clapping hands dosen't have anything to do with causing to sand to appear. He uses his sand to break the rock and make more sand.
So assuming Toph, who can allready at beginng of the fight sense his body is covered with sand, turn it to stone, and making Gaara a castrated twat, she let's him do that.
Then what?
She can controll the sand that cames her way (which here will be none because Gaara is dead by now) 
She held up an Asgardian sized Library. Against it's god.
Is alof sand going to scare her? PAH!
She fucking travels under sand unscathed, and then snaps her fingers and kills Gaara with his own sand. It's extremly comon for earthbenders to do that. Hell, she does that in the drill. Why does everyone think Range = Power now?
Range by the way it takes alot of advantages to make.
First one being that he isn't dead by now, when there is no way short of spontaneous combustion that has taken out the Mellon Lord by now.
Second one involves in how I like it how people who aren't me know nothing about ground and soil.
But you're going to have something taught to you by now, by someone who far surpasses all of you in this field
Forest ground is loose. It's allready dirt.
Wich will also quickly exausts him.
Kage gaara had the advantage of fightning in the ground.
You know what the OP says?
Solid ground.
That says granith, or feldspar. Gaara is not going to whip up deserts here. 
Even with his feats, the best you can give him is about a pound of dust.
So you can't have none of that either. All he has is his own sand, wich starts out trapped in a jar, and that's another reason why he gets raped
Wich is another thing people are forgeting.
Gaara has a jar of dirt.
And guess what's inside of it?
That's right, all of his sand starts at the inside of the gourd.
So Toph most definitly has the first moove.
And all of the raping equipment needed.
But hey, I'm really having fun crushing all of you guys hopes and dreams
Some of you say Toph can't see Gaara in the air

HER FIRST EPISODE HAS FEATS OF HER CONTROLLING AIRBORNE PARTICLES!
Gaara, (who has allready died in many funny ways) is going to make it past the first twenty seconds or so that it takes for his dust to be the way he needs it to, while Toph patiently waits for him to get up in the air.
She knows he's there. Claiming she can't see him getting his sand under him and getting the sand up, is prooving you have no place in the OBD.
All toph has to do now, is laugh a little, and then rip off all of the sand beneath and around gaara and watch him splatter to his death.
Another Gaara is destroyed.
But hey. Let's say toph has a steel beam through her brain right now, and she's a little slow, being almost dead and all, so she patiently wait, doing nothing, for Gaara to get all that sand around her.
Toph has bent with as little as wiggling her forhead, her heel and her toes.
And Kazekage gaara couldn't stop the spasms of Deidara, who has absolutly no strength feat whatsoever. And you can't proove he has the "standard" ones (whatever the hell that's suposed to mean), because you can't proove Deidara's ninja aptitude didn't came only from his bloodline limit.
You have now just given her Rock armor, to further rape Gaara with.
I would love too keep on going, showing where more and more many have you have fallen, but I don't have to.
Range isn't power.
Quantity isn't Quality.
For my sake, please, let's stop arguing with Gaara's lesser feats.
And I'm gonna take the liberty to cock block you in the wiki.


Quick Edit: Gaara Solidifying Sand? Now that's just ludacriss. He can pack it in tight but he can't turn it back into rock, and he can't controll it as such. It's stated in the manga. He needs to make sand with his sand to controll ANY sand.
Don't even begin to chalenge this if you can't pull a single moment of him hurling rocks at anyone.


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## Herekic (Feb 18, 2009)

> Gaara being stronger than Toph at earthbending is agravating, and prepare to be humiliated with one word
> Metalbending
> That's right. Toph's controll over strength is so fucking strong she can push the tiniest dust particles, many of wich unseen to the human eye, with enough strength to bend fucking steel.



gaara is so powerful, he can compress normal sand to be stronger then steel.


rememebr kimi and his steel strength bones?

remember the extremly thick bone lance kimmi made, that shattered on gaara's shukkaku shield?

gaara doesn't need to bend metal because he can simply give his sand hardness and strength superior to metal anyways.

bending metal is great and all, but let's see toph exert enough power over sand to compress the tiny rock bits so hard that they surpass steel in strength.





> Comparing making pretty statues and shuriken, wich is something any earthbender has to be retarded consider a feat, Toph with a minor gesture builts AN ENTIRE FUCKING CITY REPLICA. Real city, with every fucking brick and citizen. Shuriken? Really ladies? As if she didn't playfully make those with meteor steel, known to be alot more durable than steel?



that petty statue, while made of pure sand, was stronger then steel.

and the thing about toph's control is, she has to hold her moves to keep them up. she can't bend a complex shape, then use other bending moves while keeping that shape in place. this is because bending is based on the movement and position of your body.



gaara can do as much shape changing as he wants, and all at the same time as using his sand in other ways.





> Gaara faster than toph..
> You guys.
> Gaara is a known slowpoke. He never mooves around, he just stays put and chucks alot of sand around. He has no good reaction feats. When he fights Lee, the pre-emptive nature of his powers is what saves him, wich in this fight, is what is giong to get him killed!




This


This



lee flinched for just a moment, and gaara used that time to completely escape his attack, in mid air.

because gaara doesn't move around has little to do with anything. his sand does not attack automatically. he has to manually control and guide it.


gaara uses said sand to kill people with superhuman speed. his sand was even keeping up with weighted lee, the guy who speedblitzed sasuke.

gaara's reaction times, reflexes etc are superhuman. to say otherwise is foolishness.





> So assuming Toph, who can allready at beginng of the fight sense his body is covered with sand, turn it to stone, and making Gaara a castrated twat, she let's him do that.




if you paid any attention to the series, you'd understand that armor of sand is something gaara activates. he is not constanrtly covered with sand.


did you miss the part where it said the armor is very heavy and chakra consuming?

he only puts it on in an emergency.






> s alof sand going to scare her? PAH!
> She fucking travels under sand unscathed, and then snaps her fingers and kills Gaara with his own sand. It's extremly comon for earthbenders to do that. Hell, she does that in the drill. Why does everyone think Range = Power now?


\

see, to do that she'd need to have more power over the sand then gaara does. but she doesn't. so, you know

ain't happening. 

also she needs to get around the fact that his superhuman reaction times will be there to counter her little menuver.






> ut you're going to have something taught to you by now, by someone who far surpasses all of you in this field
> Forest ground is loose. It's allready dirt.
> Wich will also quickly exausts him.
> Kage gaara had the advantage of fightning in the ground.
> ...





gaara's shukaku shield is made by CRUSHING the hardest MINERALS underground. it was also stated just for his normal sand that he crushed ROCKS and other minerals underground.

do you think he was making dirt into sand or something? sand is tiny particles of ROCK and other minerals.


in other words, he can and will bust the shit out of the rock ground and turn it into sand.

also, the whole gourd thign would matter if gaara and his sand was not much faster then toph. 

do you forget who gaara uses the sand againt?

lee was not dodging it by much, and even kimmi wa just barely able to move out of the way. 


gaara's sand is going to be out of his gourd and in toph's face before she can do much of anything, unless you think she is >>>lee of kimmimaro in speed.






> uick Edit: Gaara Solidifying Sand? Now that's just ludacriss. He can pack it in tight but he can't turn it back into rock, and he can't controll it as such. It's stated in the manga. He needs to make sand with his sand to controll ANY sand.
> Don't even begin to chalenge this if you can't pull a single moment of him hurling rocks at anyone.





he can turn it into dense masses hard enough to shatter steel.


even his normal shield stopped kimmi's finger bullets. rememebr, kimmi's bones=hard as steel. 


though all of this does not matter, as gaara's gourd sand is going to blitz toph into oblivion anyways. the people it keeps up with>>>toph in speed. 


the final nail in the coffin is that, all the things I used here came from pre-skip gaara.

in otehr words, a years younger and weaker version of the gaara used in thsi thread.


lastly, could you maybe not post in the "GIANT WALL OF TEXT" STYLE? it makes your post hard to read, and even harder to quote(though that may have been intentional, seeing all the holes in yoru argument).


spacebar is your friend.


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## Narcissus (Feb 18, 2009)

What's this drivel about Gaara not being faster than Toph?  Bull.  Gaara is slow among the ninjas in his world, but not by avatar standards at all.  In his fight with Lee, he managed to slip out of a sand shell in a second and hide himself with sand without anyone noticing.

In his fight with Deidara, he created his sphere of sand with Deidara's bombs in his face.
So yes, he is faster than she is.

And what is this babble about Gaara needing time to convert the soil into sand?  Bullshit.  There is no support for that, and it is a desperate attempt to argue in toph's favor.

Toph is able to metalbend because she can sense the particles of earth within the metal due to her eatrh-sight.  Otherwise, not so special.  In no way is this proof of her being stronger than Gaara.  If she was, she would have better feats, which she doesn't.


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## Commander Shepard (Feb 18, 2009)

Just saying.

Gaara's sand speed>Toph's reaction speed>Gaara's physical speed.


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## Onomatopoeia (Feb 18, 2009)

> remember the extremly thick bone lance kimmi made, that shattered on gaara's shukkaku shield?



That shield had all kindsa funky minerals and shit in it. He didn't do it all with sand. 



> gaara doesn't need to bend metal because he can simply give his sand hardness and strength superior to metal anyways.



With enough prep.



> bending metal is great and all, but let's see toph exert enough power over sand to compress the tiny rock bits so hard that they surpass steel in strength.



Let's see Gaara do that. 




> hat petty statue, while made of pure sand, was stronger then steel.



Not pure sand. 



> he can turn it into dense masses hard enough to shatter steel.



No he can't.



> even his normal shield stopped kimmi's finger bullets. rememebr, kimmi's bones=hard as steel.



He never said "My bones are always hard as steel no matter what" I seem to recall him saying something to the effect that "For this special technique I will(have) increase(d) the hardness of my bones"


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## Herekic (Feb 18, 2009)

> That shield had all kindsa funky minerals and shit in it. He didn't do it all with sand.




Kekkai Houjin

gaara only has power over sand.

therefore, for him to form a statue out of it like that, it had to be sand.

sand=tiny bits of rock. 

AKA, minerals.

that pretty much answers most of the other stuff you said.





> He never said "My bones are always hard as steel no matter what" I seem to recall him saying something to the effect that "For this special technique I will(have) increase(d) the hardness of my bones"




100 meters



why would the thickest bone in his body, meant to be used as a strong piercing  weapon, be weaker then his other bones?

even if you where right and he only makes them steel hard for his "special techniques", guess what that was?

thats right, a special technique. had a name and everything.


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## Onomatopoeia (Feb 18, 2009)

So his mega spear of doom is steel-strength. How's that prove his finger bullets are steel strength?

And for another thing where's this "Hard as steel" bit comnig from?


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## Herekic (Feb 18, 2009)

> So his mega spear of doom is steel-strength. How's that prove his finger bullets are steel strength?




the bones he uses to attack are steel strength. if he's proven capeable of making steel strength bones, exactly why would he use normal bones to attack?


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## Onomatopoeia (Feb 18, 2009)

Why wouldn't Kakashi use spam the shit out of kamui for all his fights? 
Why wouldn't Sasuke and Itachi just use Amaterasu right from the get go and not use anything else in their fights?

Kimimaro was using his strongest move to try and pierce Gaara's strongest shield. When he first started the fight he was all "This punk ain't got nuthin on me, yo." so he didn't use his strongest attacks.

Also, where's this  "hard as steel" bit coming from?


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## Herekic (Feb 18, 2009)

> Why wouldn't Kakashi use spam the shit out of kamui for all his fights?
> Why wouldn't Sasuke and Itachi just use Amaterasu right from the get go and not use anything else in their fights?
> 
> Kimimaro was using his strongest move to try and pierce Gaara's strongest shield. When he first started the fight he was all "This punk ain't got nuthin on me, yo." so he didn't use his strongest attacks.
> ...



he saw fit to use his steel hard bones while easily owning naruto.

and kimmi himself stated that because he can control their density, he can make them as hard as steel.

keep in mind even a normal human's bones are actually significantly stronger then concrete to begin with.


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## Commander Shepard (Feb 18, 2009)

Herekic said:


> the bones he uses to attack are steel strength. if he's proven capeable of making steel strength bones, exactly why would he use normal bones to attack?



Ok, yes he can make some of his bones steel-strength.  But that does not prove that they are all steel-strength, or that they are constantly steel-strength.  You'll need separate proof for that.

Because Buu can do a planetbusting attack, does that mean all of Buu's attacks are planetbusters?  No.  Same with Kimmi.  Just because some of his bones are steel-strength does not prove that they all are.


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## Banhammer (Feb 18, 2009)

So what, Gaara can muster up a a fat racoon made of the hardest undergound mineral.
Newsflash, from someone who knows far more about this than you, 200 meters underground, wich seemed a limit of where he could sen Kimimaro, still has nothing that really compares itself to steel. And the denser calcium is, the easier it cracks.
Just because he stated it to be steel, dosen't mean he knows what the hell he's talking about.
Fire Nation steel however, has been prooven and often exemplified how it is the real deal, and Toph's strength feats with much much muuuuuuuuch less sand (and much less than the amount she can control) still top Gaara's.
Yes, even gaara's amazing ability that deplets most of his chakra and creates a single stationary dool, that she can just wack off with a single punch, because durability of a rock means nothing to a terrakinetic that can mess with any high end silicates the same way she plays with mica. Specially since it's stationary, and Toph can just ignore it and crush Gaara's head from behind it.


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## Herekic (Feb 18, 2009)

> Newsflash, from someone who knows far more about this than you, 200 meters underground, wich seemed a limit of where he could sen Kimimaro, still has nothing that really compares itself to steel. And the denser calcium is, the easier it cracks.
> Just because he stated it to be steel, dosen't mean he knows what the hell he's talking about.




I like how you claim to know more about the subject them me despite not knowing who I am, what I do, or really anything about me(and while giving no qualifications for yourself).

200 metres is how far gaara could push down kimi while making ALL the ground around him into sand. crushing and stirring all the ground in that sace for 200 m down.


keep in mind he did this at the very end of the fight, after expending lots of power using other large scale jutsu.


and gaara's sand crushes rocks and other hard minerals with no problem, yet him crushing down on kimmi did not break his bones, even desert requiem didin't. 


so yea, I think we can safely surmise kimi's bones are not brittle.






> ire Nation steel however, has been prooven and often exemplified how it is the real deal, and Toph's strength feats with much much muuuuuuuuch less sand (and much less than the amount she can control) still top Gaara's.
> Yes, even gaara's amazing ability that deplets most of his chakra and creates a single stationary dool, that she can just wack off with a single punch, because durability of a rock means nothing to a terrakinetic that can mess with any high end silicates the same way she plays with mica. Specially since it's stationary, and Toph can just ignore it and crush Gaara's head from behind it.





I like how you ignored most of my argument and only stuck to what you could counter.


you are still working under the assumption toph is actually going to get the chance to do much of anything, when, honestly, she's not.

gaara's sand is enough to keep kimmimaro on his toes, somebody who is at least as fast as unweighted lee. it also has the power to make a crater behind lee's back just from slamming him into the wall with a straight shot of it.

gaara's sand is going to shoot out of his gourd and slam toph in her face, smashing her head in. the end. 

if gaara's sand was fast enough to keep kimimaro on his toes TWO YEARS AGO, as he is now toph doesn't have a prayer of doing much of anything berfore his sand slams into her.


toph, despite all her earthbending prowess, is still physically a 12 year old, 3 foot tall little girl. none of her powers are going to help her in any way ounce gaara's sand hits her, and unless you want to try and attribute WAY more speed to toph then she has ever demonstrated, it WILL hit her.



Sand that is able to hunt down and catch people like lee and kimmi nearly THREE YEARS AGO(he has significantly improved since then)>>>>toph. 


bending doesn't help much if you are dead before you get to use it.


also, for god's sake


Space.         Bar.


nobody likes walls of text.


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## Narcissus (Feb 18, 2009)

The desperate attempts and straw grasping for Toph is astounding.  If there is evidence that Toph can bend anthing close to what Gaara has controlled, please post it.

Otherwise, I accept the concession.


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## Ippy (Feb 18, 2009)

Pintsize said:


> Garaa's sand covering you doesn't completely restrict movement, or else Deidara wouldn't have been able to eat his sand and reform it to clay.


He has mouths in his hands.... all they had to do was open.  Mind you, they were mouths *without jaws*, which means they had less of a potential to be manipulated or restricted with outside force.

You cannot compare a mouth, without a jaw, opening to the Hun Gar movements Toph needs to perform in order for her to bend....


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## Banhammer (Feb 18, 2009)

Whatever I did not bother to counter was just subjective crap that it would be more trouble than what was worth.

My Qualifications are the second semester of the European Equivalent of the MIT in Mining and Geo-Enviromental engeneering.
Only ten people are acepted in this course.
So yeah. I'm quite positive that I am far more qualified then you in this subject.


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## Banhammer (Feb 18, 2009)

The MMAthematician said:


> He has mouths in his hands.... all they had to do was open.  Mind you, they were mouths *without jaws*, which means they had less of a potential to be manipulated or restricted with outside force.
> 
> You cannot compare a mouth, without a jaw, opening to the Hun Gar movements Toph needs to perform in order for her to bend....



First of all, Toph dosen't do Hun Gar exactly, toph does Southern Mantis. Very few kicks, and mooves are essentially quick hand gestures.
But she has earthbend with as little as a tilt of a forehead.
While Bumi,  with less feats, and isolated in a steel cage, has earthbent by wiggling his chin.
Now, I may be still lifetimes away from his level in hun gar, but I'm pretty shure Chin-Fu is not something I have to worry about in a master.


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## Herekic (Feb 18, 2009)

> Whatever I did not bother to counter was just subjective crap that it would be more trouble than what was worth.
> 
> My Qualifications are the second semester of the European Equivalent of the MIT in Mining and Geo-Enviromental engeneering.
> Only ten people are acepted in this course.
> So yeah. I'm quite positive that I am far more qualified then you in this subject.



not a problem, try countering my last post now. the one that brings up the fact toph is going to get blitzed.


also, my whole point in bringing up the shukaku shield(and why I don't really get why your "credentials" or knowledge of this subject matter) was that the minerals he used where NOT as hard a steel. thats the entire point.


it was to show gaara's powers are so strong he compressed a bunch of random minerals in the ground so densely that they shattered a very thick bone that was in all likelyhood as strong as steel.

the fact he would not likely have access to material that can compete with steel only SUPPORTS my argument.


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## Onomatopoeia (Feb 18, 2009)

Heheh, chin-fu.


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## Banhammer (Feb 18, 2009)

Not really. In order for calcium to became denser without restructurization, you need to empty the spaces between the molecules, and as such, it becames more susceptible to actually break, as it looses flexibility, and it's always isocharged so it's more likely to to spontaneously crack once constant conraction ceases. The fact that it has endurance feats against it, makes it less encouraging then actual bone.
Just about any element that you can find in the ground in it's elemental state is more durable than bone, and when in sand form, it has more flexibility, so it will most certainly hold against attacks of Kimiaro's nature, but Gaara's sand durability can only be stipulated from the fact that he could simulate structurization, or meteorization with his chakra, wich against toph, becames useless, since she fucks around with particles, connected by far stronger bonds than any shown by gaara.
In fact, his power has revealed the limitation of needing particular weak bonds in order for him to screw with.
Therefore, even if toph has shown as much range as Gaara, she is far more stronger than him with less sand.
Much like a nail punches deeper through wood than a hammer.

Now we were going to talk about Toph not getting blitzed right?
BRB

Your speed argument was based practly all on kimimaro. But truth is, Gaara did not keep up speed with kimi. All of his speed relevant defenses depend on the pre-emptive nature of the sand, wich is invalid since the nature of Toph's threat is completly difrent, depend on we assuming Kimimaro is some sort of speed god, when all you have is some relative scaling next to a very injured and rather drunk Lee with all of his gates closed, whose speed is something Gaara could not deal with.
Kazekage Gaara has even fewer and lamer speed feats. He ties around the taunting, Deidara, who ranks while flying around aapa, wich is something Toph has prooven to be par with.
Also, he attacks with something toph can see, predict control and counter, before he has the tme to learn some way around it.

I'dd also like to add something about toph's earth durability. She can tank serious buisnes firebenders with her stone armor. Serious buisness firebender, like, say Zuko and Iroh, have busted through steel before. Something noted by the fact that it is something Gaara couldn't do, even if Kimimaro's bones were harder than steel, wich they weren't.


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## Herekic (Feb 18, 2009)

> Your speed argument was based practly all on kimimaro. But truth is, Gaara did not keep up speed with kimi. All of his speed relevant defenses depend on the pre-emptive nature of the sand, wich is invalid since the nature of Toph's threat is completly difrent, depend on we assuming Kimimaro is some sort of speed god, when all you have is some relative scaling next to a very injured and rather drunk Lee with all of his gates closed, whose speed is something Gaara could not deal with.
> Kazekage Gaara has even fewer and lamer speed feats. He ties around the taunting, Deidara, who ranks while flying around aapa, wich is something Toph has prooven to be par with.
> Also, he attacks with something toph can see, predict control and counter, before he has the tme to learn some way around it.
> 
> I'dd also like to add something about toph's earth durability. She can tank serious buisnes firebenders with her stone armor. Serious buisness firebender, like, say Zuko and Iroh, have busted through steel before. Something noted by the fact that it is something Gaara couldn't do, even if Kimimaro's bones were harder than steel, wich they weren't.




100 meters

100 meters

Link removed


in the first one you see his sand chasing kimmi down. kimmi himself even says getting close will be difficult. if gaara's attack speed was slow, this would not make alot of sense.


in the second and third ones, gaara actually intercepts CS2 kimmi's attack before it could strike lee. rememebr gaara had just bee knocked flat, and this was a speedy suprise attack by kimmi.


as for deidara, we have no idea how fast he flies. never have. though even so, at several points he had to use his bombs to intercept gaara's attacks. 

also remember gaara was using normal sand to attack deidara. it was stated gaara's gourd sand is on an entirely diffrient level in terms of speed and power.


I'm aware if toph's earth armor and what it can do, but the problem here is eh won't get to use it. by the time she can take her stance and make the move to form up the armor, gaara's sand will have already struck her.


as I've shown, gaara's sand is well into the superhuman range of speed, has been for years. 

gaara's sand was able to chase down kimmi, and even block a suprise attack by him. nearly 3 years ago. 


in the post-skip arc, you have gaara's gourd sand beng able to block a bomb that was right in his face when it went off.also, the one time gaara employed his gourd sand to attack deidara was the time where deidara barely escaped. this also prompted deidara to make the statement that gaara's gorud sand is compeltely diffreitn from the sand he makes or uses from other sources.


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## Slim Debater Chen (Feb 19, 2009)

Why is this being debated?  Gaara uses Desert Funeral.  GG.


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## ipakmann (Feb 19, 2009)

Jesus Christ Toph wins bending<charkra


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## rockonyx (Sep 30, 2009)

Necro post!

Fun fact: Power has nothing to do with this fight. What this comes down to is speed and versatility. It has been demonstrated that, when she's first introduced, Toph can react instantly to any movement done on ground. It has also been demonstrated that she can physically move earth at LEAST 20ft (if The Boulder is 6 ft. tall) before The Boulder can step down. If someone wants to calculate the speed per second, go right ahead. Toph is faster than you!

Gaara's offensive sand is by no means faster than human movement. It's been outrun and out-maneuvered in almost every fight he's been in. Plus, in order for Gaara to use any jutsu, he has to make a seal. He's never been shown to have Itachi's hand speed, so it's not going to be near-instant by any means. Gaara's strength has always been in volume, and in surprise attacks. He can't surprise Toph.

Toph can immobilize Gaara's hands, presumably from the start of the fight if they are both aware of the other's existence. This makes any offensive sand manipulation by Gaara impossible. She can either completely encase Gaara in rock from the ground, or take minerals from Gaara's sand and encase him in that. Match, Toph.


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## Onomatopoeia (Sep 30, 2009)

> Toph is faster than you!



Perhaps, but is she faster than Gaara?


> Gaara's offensive sand is by no means faster than human movement. It's been outrun and out-maneuvered in almost every fight he's been in.



Gaara's sand has been avoided by people who are blatantly superhuman. Therefore, it is slower than human speed.

If I could neg you twice I would.



> Toph can immobilize Gaara's hands, presumably from the start of the fight if they are both aware of the other's existence.



How, exactly?



> This makes any offensive sand manipulation by Gaara impossible



Except for the part where Gaara can control sand with his mind and doesn't need to use his hands at all.


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## rockonyx (Sep 30, 2009)

1) If you clicked on the link, you would have seen her react instantly to vibration.

2) I concede Gaara's sand speed. I based it on Naruto speed, as opposed to "real" human speed. That said, Toph can react instantly to the shift in weight from Gaara moving his sand from the gourd.

3) I explained how she would encase his hands. Gaara can't do any jutsu without making seals. This is basic Naruto rule. He can only control the sand from his gourd without seals, and it's the same as an earth bender throwing sand. Toph, being an earth-bending master, could easily put up a rock shield and attack from there. She did it when she was first introduced. 

4) If Toph takes the minerals from his gourd to trap him, he's finished before he even starts, and she has the speed to do so. Technically, she could trap his whole body by simply separating the minerals from the sand. We know from metalbending that she can sense and manipulate minerals.


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## Onomatopoeia (Sep 30, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> 1) If you clicked on the link, you would have seen her react instantly to vibration.



And that proves she's faster than Gaara...how?



> 2) I concede Gaara's sand speed. I based it on Naruto speed, as opposed to "real" human speed. That said, Toph can react instantly to the shift in weight from Gaara moving his sand from the gourd.



Uh huh. And can she prevent the sand itself attacking her, when she has no way of sensing it?



> 3) I explained how she would encase his hands.


No you didn't.



> He can only control the sand from his gourd without seals, and it's the same as an earth bender throwing sand.



Wrong and wrong. The sand in the gourd is easier for Gaara to control because it's infused with his chakra, but there's nothing stopping him from making more sand and controlling it. Evidence, his fight with Deidara




> Toph, being an earth-bending master, could easily put up a rock shield and attack from there. She did it when she was first introduced



THing about that tactic is, it assumes that Gaara is only capable of making a frontal assault, and that he is incapable of piercing a measly wall of rock. Both assumptions are untrue.




> 4) If Toph takes the minerals from his gourd to trap him, he's finished before he even starts





> Technically, she could trap his whole body by simply separating the minerals from the sand.




Any evidence she's capable of doing this before he kills her/at all?




> and she has the speed to do so


 Evidence? 




> We know from metalbending that she can sense and manipulate minerals.



A: Close range only. B: How will this help her if Gaara decides to Imperial Funeral her ass?


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## Banhammer (Sep 30, 2009)

Last post adress.

She can manipulate all sorts of minerals and rocks.
She has also manipulated metal at range in comic books and in the finale.

Although the range of toph is shown to be somewhat more limited, even though I could argue there are no feats of post shukaku gaara to proove that, she is stronger with what she can handle, and ffs if my name dosen't mean anything in the obd any more, speacially when it cames to earth arguments


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## Onomatopoeia (Sep 30, 2009)

There're comic books?


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## rockonyx (Sep 30, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> And that proves she's faster than Gaara...how?
> 
> *In order to use any of his actual jutsu, he has to make the seals with his hands. She could hit him from where she was before he could make the seal.*
> 
> ...



She can detect things as minute as heartbeats through the ground (used against Azula). There's nothing that Gaara could do on the ground, that she wouldn't "see" coming.

I'd like to see some evidence that Gaara can move as fast as Toph.


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## Onomatopoeia (Sep 30, 2009)

> In order to use any of his actual jutsu, he has to make the seals with his hands. She could hit him from where she was before he could make the seal.



He's fast enough to make a sand clone in the split second five gates Lee closed his eyes, something only noticed by Kakashi and Gai despite everyone in the building watching.



> I'm sorry, did you just say that the girl who detects movements through earth, can't detect EARTH? How many times does she need to catch or break flying rocks?



She detects movements through earth via vibrations. Catching flying rocks is simple trajectory prediction. Gaara's sand is not limited to a single path.



> There's no sand on the ground in this scenario.



Gaara has already proven that he's capable of making more sand.



> He HAS to make a frontal assault.


 No, he doesn't.



> Throwing a bunch of sand against a rock won't inherently break it, and the density of the shield is yet undetermined.



It's a rock. Its density is rock.



> Remember the whole, rocks on his hands, and minerals from his gourd on his hands?



I'm still not seeing how that prevents him from attacking her. Or, for that matter, why she would do so in the first place, given that she has no way of knowing that traditional jutsus(of which Gaara possess few to begin with) require hand signs.



> The sand he controlled was part of the jutsu he used. Thus, he needed to make the seals. When he used all that extra sand, what did it do? It attempted to capture him for the Burial move. When he made the sand shield, his hands were hidden, so your "proof" is gone.



Jutsus Gaara requires seals for: Quicksand in the Style of a Waterfall and Feigning Sleep Technique(also very handy).

That's pretty much it. Gaara can control the sand he has, and create more sand, without using seals.

His sand shield is automatic. It doesn't require seals. This is an established fact.




> She'd most likely make a shield that splits the sand, taking as little direct force as possible. Again, it's established that she can do that easily.



Thing about that tactic is, it assumes that Gaara is only capable of making a frontal assault. This is an untrue assumption.



> We know how fast she can move earth, and we know that Gaara can't move his sand the same speed. If he could, then the first time Lee did his triple backflip, Gaara would have impaled him.



So what you're saying is, Toph can move earth as fast as weightless Lee.



> Again, she can encase his hands with rock/earth/minerals/whatever before he can make the seal.



Good thing he doesn't need to use seals to kill her since all but two of his jutsus can be performed without them. Though I still don't know why she would try that tactic in the first place. 



> She could just impale him with the minerals in the gourd.



And Gaara could crush her with Sand Binding Coffin(which doesn't require seals remember).



> There's nothing that Gaara could do on the ground, that she wouldn't "see" coming.



Gaara's typical methods in battle: Stand still and move the sand with his mind since he doesn't need to use seals. What's there to detect?


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## Banhammer (Sep 30, 2009)

too late to reply toanything else





> She detects movements through earth via vibrations. Catching flying rocks is simple trajectory prediction. Gaara's sand is not limited to a single path.



Toph senses and manipulates airborn particles since her first showing, and senses and screws with earth she had never had any direct contact with or with earth in contact with at all.
Fine controll of sand _used_ to be fuzzy, but she got over that by final season.
It would be funny to see Gaara tr and start desert funeral to find out he has just given her a > steel armor.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 30, 2009)

Oh yeah, this has never been done before


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## Onomatopoeia (Sep 30, 2009)

This is one of the ones that's been done before. Whatshisface necroed it.


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## rockonyx (Sep 30, 2009)

I saw the Toph page and that she lost to Gaara. I came here, and it made no sense. Everything points to Toph. So, I necroed this instead of making another one.



What's that he's doing with his hands?

You're right that she wouldn't go for his hands. She has the power to impale him with his own sand. If she won't do that, she can just enclose him in dirt. Even if his shield somehow got between his body and the ground beneath him, Toph could add layers until he suffocated from lack of oxygen.

Also, if rock has the density of rock, sand has the density of sand. How do things manage to get stopped by Gaara's shield?

I'm streamlining this. There are more variables being presented than actually matter in this fight.


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## Onomatopoeia (Sep 30, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> What's that he's doing with his hands?



He is forming a hand seal from the looks of it. There's nothing stopping him from using one if he wants to, but that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't _need_ to.



> He has the power to impale her with his sand. If he won't do that, he can just enclose her in sand. Even if she somehow managed to survive that long Gaara could add layers until she suffocated from lack of oxygen.



Look at that, by changing a few words I made an argument that's just as effective as the one you put up.



> Also, if rock has the density of rock, sand has the density of sand. How do things manage to get stopped by Gaara's shield?



Toph moves rocks, pulling them out of the ground or what have you. 
Gaara infuses sand with his chakra, making it much more powerful than normal.



> I'm streamlining this. There are more variables being presented than actually matter in this fight.



In other words, you concede. I accept your concession. Thank you and good night.


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## rockonyx (Sep 30, 2009)

KnJ needs to be defined, because in this scenario, he has nothing to substitute with. He's never shown himself capable of moving sand as far as Toph at the same speed. See the Deidara fight. If he could do it, he would have. At best, his autoguard allows him to block things faster than he can react to them.

If his sand is so powerful, why was Chuunin Sasuke able to tear through it with a basic palm strike? Why was Deidara's clay able to crawl through it? The only thing you have going for you is the one time that Gaara managed to keep Kimi from going through SEVERAL FEET of packed sand. Guess what? The bone simply cracked after extensive abrasion. Busted.

Prove that he doesn't need a seal, thank you. No, instances in which we can't see his hands don't count.

These are the various scenarios in which Toph completely dominates.

1) The one initially presented. She traps him with minerals from his own gourd. The autoguard, which comes from his gourd, is completely useless in this scenario.

2) She impales him with his own gourd *where the gourd touches him*. It's a logical move for her to make, and he can't block it because it's already touching him.

3) She encases him in the ground beneath him. He can't counter it, because the ground is already touching him.

There is nothing that proves that Gaara could do ANYTHING offensively to Toph before she does either of those three things. There is nothing that proves that Gaara could stop her from doing those things, either.


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## Onomatopoeia (Sep 30, 2009)

Seeing how you already conceded, and seeing how you're just resorting to saying the same thing over and over in the hopes that I'll eventually agree with you, I've already won this so there's really no need to continue, but I'm nothing if not a masochist. 



> If his sand is so powerful, why was Chuunin Sasuke able to tear through it with a basic palm strike?


 To my memory, Sasuke was faster than the sand. 



> Why was Deidara's clay able to crawl through it?



Because it's sand, not stone. 

It wasn't as tightly packed as it could have been as Gaara wasn't expecting it.



> The only thing I have going for me is saying "LOL TOF RAYPS CUZX GARA IZ A ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)!!1!!ONE!!!!EXCLAMATIONPOINT!!"



Indeed.


> Prove that he doesn't need a seal.



Prove he does. Every fight he's in he just stands there and moves the sand with his mind. Show me scans, in every fight he's in, of Gaara using seals.



> 1) The one initially presented. She traps him with minerals from his own gourd. The autoguard, which comes from his gourd, is completely useless in this scenario.



Trapping him will not hinder his ability to attack in any way, as already established.



> 2) She impales him with his own gourd where the gourd touches him. It's a logical move for her to make, and he can't block it because it's already touching him.



CIS. 



> 3) She encases him in the ground beneath him. He can't counter it, because the ground is already touching him.



Provided he's not using Desert Suspension, or Sand Clone. 



> There is nothing that proves that Gaara could do ANYTHING offensively to Toph before she does either of those three things


 You mean Toph can move faster than Gaara can *think*? That's pretty fast. I trust you have something to back this up.



> There is nothing that proves that Gaara could stop her from doing those things, either.



Other than those previously mentioned, of course.


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## rockonyx (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm not the one who has to provide Gaara's case, you do. It's common knowledge that he doesn't control his autoguard, and I've proven that he can't move the sand under his own control as fast as you want to believe. YOU have to prove YOUR point, because you have yet to do so. All you've done is make fallacies left and right, which means that you don't have an actual counter to my evidence.

By the way, All characters are considered bloodlusted unless otherwise stated. CIS doesn't apply here.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 1, 2009)

> I'm not the one who has to provide Gaara's case, you do.



There's plenty of evidence for my side. You're the one claiming that Gaara needs to use a seal. Show me these seals. Your reluctance to prove it suggests you've got nothing.

Gaara may make a few arm movements here and there, but there's not a seal in sight. Very conspicuously so.

I can't find these seals you insist are present in every fight Gaara is in. Maybe I've got some sort of selective blindness.

I'd very much like to see these seals of yours. Show me the seals.



> All I've done is make fallacies left and right, which means that I don't have an actual counter to your evidence.



Indeed, and it's getting rather irksome. I must insist you stop.



> By the way, All characters are considered bloodlusted unless otherwise stated. CIS doesn't apply here.



Check again, Skippy. CIS is on unless otherwise specified. 

In any event, I'm done with you. Block.


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## rockonyx (Oct 1, 2009)

Bloodlust is generally assumed to be true in OBD matches, unless indicated otherwise by the OP. A bloodlusted character will not be victim to CIS, and will be much more likely to speedblitz (if doing so is within their powerset).

You were saying?








Whatever you want to call them, he HAS to make them in order to do his jutsu.

Now, as I've supported Toph enough to prove that Gaara can't possibly be faster than her, or do anything she won't notice, I think this case is closed. Checkmate.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 1, 2009)

Pfft, that's not true and you know it. Toph is easily cooler than Gaara, how dare you suggest otherwise.


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## neodragzero (Oct 1, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> Bloodlust is generally assumed to be true in OBD matches, unless indicated otherwise by the OP. A bloodlusted character will not be victim to CIS, and will be much more likely to speedblitz (if doing so is within their powerset).
> 
> You were saying?


He's probably referring to this:
Hwon

CIS is a given to be on. The forum assumptions sticky overrides a wiki post. At the very least, a character is limited to their shown level of general competence but not to a point that heavily relies upon plot.


> Whatever you want to call them, he HAS to make them in order to do his jutsu.
> 
> Now, as I've supported Toph enough to prove that Gaara can't possibly be faster than her, or do anything she won't notice, I think this case is closed. Checkmate.



He commented on Gaara making arm movements. You haven't done a thing here. Especially when Toph by comparison has to move her body while she also needs to be within short range of Gaara to do anything to him. He easily beats her in variety and scale to a ridiculous degree. You have no proof whatsoever that she's faster than him at all. Raising your arms or holding your hands together is a lot easier than the amount of physical movement needed for short range earth bending.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 1, 2009)

That last one doesn't even count, because that's Quicksand in the Style of a Waterfall, one of the two jutsus I acknowledged that require the use of hand seals.


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## rockonyx (Oct 1, 2009)

The video I showed way back proves it. Before her opponent could complete a step (from mid step to putting his foot down) she sent physical earth from her spot to his. This included the minor movement it took for her to do it. How minor? She kicked the ground. She did this the first episode she was in. In comparison, Gaara caught Deidara off-guard, and couldn't catch him before he jumped onto his bird. Nor could he catch the bird when it made its ascent.

Where do you get that she's restrained to a short distance, and how short is "short"? According to the Assumptions (Thanks for the info, by the way), they start 20 paces from each other.

Scale isn't important in this fight. There won't be time for Gaara to launch some massive attack. Toph can bend any rock, mineral, and now metal. Gaara can't compete on variety.

She received instant knowledge about the Boulder when he touched the ground. She can tell Gaara's weight and build, and she'd be able to detect the sand on his back. If she couldn't do that much, she'd be bumping into things left and right.


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## neodragzero (Oct 1, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> The video I showed way back proves it. Before her opponent could complete a step (from mid step to putting his foot down) she sent physical earth from her spot to his. This included the minor movement it took for her to do it. How minor? She kicked the ground. She did this the first episode she was in. In comparison, Gaara caught Deidara off-guard, and couldn't catch him before he jumped onto his bird. Nor could he catch the bird when it made its ascent.


Here's the problem with your comparison. You are comparing two characters without proving whatsoever how one of them is slower than other. Even more so when the character Toph is facing already has all his movements made predictable because of her special ground sense ability. How exactly is stomping a fodder bender mean anything in comparison to facing a high level S-class shinobi with a flight option and other things of a ridiculous difference in combat power?


> Where do you get that she's restrained to a short distance, and how short is "short"? According to the Assumptions (Thanks for the info, by the way), they start 20 paces from each other.


In comparison to the range Gaara can pull off, she's short distance. He has more numerous ways of dealing with her.


> Scale isn't important in this fight. There won't be time for Gaara to launch some massive attack. Toph can bend any rock, mineral, and now metal. Gaara can't compete on variety.


Won't be time how? He easily pulled off the sand coffin the very first time we see him fight. Gaara can change any mineral into sand. Gaara can float in the air. Gaara can actually create clones of himself. He automatically has sand armor defense. Throwing around rocks and a rock armor isn't much variety.


> She received instant knowledge about the Boulder when he touched the ground. She can tell Gaara's weight and build, and she'd be able to detect the sand on his back. If she couldn't do that much, she'd be bumping into things left and right.


She was able to tell that the guy was going to throw a rock. That doesn't equate to knowing that your opponent can easily manipulate sand to block a barrage of steel projectiles and crush a person to death with sand. It's a world of difference between the bender fodder you keep bringing up and what Gaara does for combat.


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## Kage no Yume (Oct 1, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> KnJ needs to be defined, because in this scenario, he has nothing to substitute with.



You haven't actually read the manga have you?  If you had, you wouldn't have necroed a thread and argued for the person who clearly lost in it, after the winner recently showed off more impressive feats.



> He's never shown himself capable of moving sand as far as Toph at the same speed.



As mentioned, he escaped from Lee's assault faster than superhumans who are above Toph could notice.  And he caught up with Deidara pretty quickly.



> See the Deidara fight. If he could do it, he would have. At best, his autoguard allows him to block things faster than he can react to them.



So you think Toph is faster than Deidara now?  



> If his sand is so powerful, why was Chuunin Sasuke able to tear through it with a basic palm strike?



Because he didn't tear through the shield, he broke through the small portion of it that was only starting to form due to his speed advantage.



> Why was Deidara's clay able to crawl through it?



Because it didn't .  Deidara mixed the clay into his gourd sand when it crushed his arm.  *He had to sacrifice an arm to get past the gourd shield.*  Then when the gourd sand went to protect Gaara, he detonated it.



> The only thing you have going for you is the one time that Gaara managed to keep Kimi from going through SEVERAL FEET of packed sand. Guess what? The bone simply cracked after extensive abrasion. Busted.



Rescue arc Gaara can condense sand to the point where it's harder than steel.

What the hell has Toph ever done with sand?  



> Prove that he doesn't need a seal, thank you. No, instances in which we can't see his hands don't count.



Neither of us is going to post entire fights for you, but here are a few pages:

Link removed

Read on up to page 9:  Link removed

Link removed
Link removed

Stock

Stock
Stock
Stock


He uses a few arm motions for large movements (large meaning giant claws as big as houses), and for the variations of desert grave and funeral.  He uses a few seals for the sand tsunami, his third eye justu, and the sinking move.

He can still move his sand without even uncrossing his arms, as well as use the sand bullet jutsu, as shown in the above links.


Not that it matters as Toph doesn't know jack shit about the seals nor movements, or what they imply.  Since when did clapping your hands together translate into sending a 50 ft+ wall of sand in one's direction?

Unless you were implying that putting his hands together or lifting his arm is going to be too slow?  Fast enough to overcome superhuman Naruto characters, but too slow to take on Toph .



> These are the various scenarios in which Toph completely dominates.
> 
> 1) The one initially presented. She traps him with minerals from his own gourd. The autoguard, which comes from his gourd, is completely useless in this scenario.



Because she has been shown manipulating sand in such a way right?  Moreover, sand that's already in the constant control of someone who can manipulate it 100x better than her, and is basically infused with his lifeforce (she'd have to spirit bend and sand bend at the same time really).



> 2) She impales him with his own gourd *where the gourd touches him*. It's a logical move for her to make, and he can't block it because it's already touching him.



Again, she's shown this ability when, and how is she going to take control of his personal sand?



> 3) She encases him in the ground beneath him. He can't counter it, because the ground is already touching him.



You know, except for flying with superhuman speed (kind like he did pre-skip to avoid Dance of the Seedling Ferns, which even Lee's speed couldn't avoid), or turning the ground into more usable sand (like he converted more than a football field's worth in a few seconds).



> There is nothing that proves that Gaara could do ANYTHING offensively to Toph before she does either of those three things. There is nothing that proves that Gaara could stop her from doing those things, either.



He just stopped an attack from the notoriously fast Raikage, and forced the also notoriously fast Sasuke to use Amaterasu to stop his sand.

Hell, he's shown good enough speed feats pre-skip:  stopping Kimimaro's sand bullets which must have been moving pretty fast to nearly pierce his "stronger than 5mm of steel" shield, pressuring Kimimaro with his sand, and avoiding DotSF.  Not to mention the above feat of escaping 1 gate Omote Renge in a flash, and keeping up with Deidara and his explosions.


So to sum it all up:

-Superior speed all around, and flight, which completely screws Toph over as he needs to be in contact with solid ground for her to get a clear picture of anything he's doing, or even his general position (he's not going to be buzzing incessantly like those flying bees, which means she probably won't be able to sense him at all if he's airborne).

-Stronger offense with more variations, that are pretty much unavoidable.

-Impenetrable defense due to special gourd sand and being able to summon walls, waves, or giant claws of sand on a whim (even if the terrain starts as solid, it won't stay that way for long).


Rescue Arc Gaara could take this more often than not.  
Kazekage Gaara crushes Toph.  
Current Gaara is still sorta unknown, but is definitely above Rescue Arc Gaara so I'd say it's still a sure bet.


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## rockonyx (Oct 1, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> Here's the problem with your comparison. You are comparing two characters without proving whatsoever how one of them is slower than other. Even more so when the character Toph is facing already has all his movements made predictable because of her special ground sense ability. How exactly is stomping a fodder bender mean anything in comparison to facing a high level S-class shinobi with a flight option and other things of a ridiculous difference in combat power?



How is moving earth 20ft in less than a second (timing myself putting my foot down) not faster than Gaara being unable to stop a guy from jumping what, 10-15 ft in the air, land, and getting away? The distance was considerably less as well!



> In comparison to the range Gaara can pull off, she's short distance. He has more numerous ways of dealing with her.





> Won't be time how? He easily pulled off the sand coffin the very first time we see him fight.



He had how much time to send sand out there? If he didn't send the sand out, it doesn't prove anything, as there's no sand besides what he's got in his gourd.



> Gaara can change any mineral into sand. Gaara can float in the air. Gaara can actually create clones of himself. He automatically has sand armor defense. Throwing around rocks and a rock armor isn't much variety.



That's simplifying and ignoring Toph's abilities, while stating that Gaara can "manipulate sand". His manipulation of sand is great, but that's not variety, that's specialization.



> She was able to tell that the guy was going to throw a rock. That doesn't equate to knowing that your opponent can easily manipulate sand to block a barrage of steel projectiles and crush a person to death with sand. It's a world of difference between the bender fodder you keep bringing up and what Gaara does for combat.



For the guy that threw the rock, she knew it's exact trajectory. I never said she knew Gaara could do that. She knows that he's got a gourd on his back, what his build is, any shift in weight from him or the gourd (which is NOT WEIGHTLESS) and even his heart rate. She knows that she has to take him down. If she has CIS to prevent lethal force, the simplest course of action is to encase him by using the ground, the gourd, or both.

The moment Gaara (or more specifically, his sand) makes an aggressive move, she'll know what it's going to do.

To Kage:

Defensive sand isn't in his control. It states this in the manga. It's why Gaara got blown up in the Deidara fight. It clearly shows Deidara's bugs crawling into view, too.

Yes, I'm saying that she would have been able to catch Deidara under the same conditions. Those being that she caught him off guard from the same distance.

Sasuke broke through his sand clone's HEAD. It was clearly defined.

In 464, Gaara's hands aren't shown until afterwards, so it's invalid.

You all keep forgetting that when Toph grabs a hold of him with the earth, he's screwed. He's not going to just stand there concentrating when it happens, either. He doesn't have the affinity to see what she's doing until it's too late. He can't move away from it, and his only course of action is to hope that he can hit her before she Earth Buries him.

What I saw in here was a guy jump in mid-discussion and simply award Gaara the win.


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## neodragzero (Oct 1, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> How is moving earth 20ft in less than a second (timing myself putting my foot down) not faster than Gaara being unable to stop a guy from jumping what, 10-15 ft in the air, land, and getting away? The distance was considerably less as well!


I'm still waiting for your little explanation as to how exactly Toph is faster than any of these characters at all.


> He had how much time to send sand out there? If he didn't send the sand out, it doesn't prove anything, as there's no sand besides what he's got in his gourd.


And again, he easily makes sand up to the distance of a football field on a whim.


> That's simplifying and ignoring Toph's abilities, while stating that Gaara can "manipulate sand". His manipulation of sand is great, but that's not variety, that's specialization.


Not variety how? He can float with it, use it to replace himself with a decoy, etc. multiple different ways of using a single type of medium. Toph on the other hand doesn't have anywhere near as many options with her earth bending. It's really simple.


> For the guy that threw the rock, she knew it's exact trajectory. I never said she knew Gaara could do that. She knows that he's got a gourd on his back, what his build is, any shift in weight from him or the gourd (which is NOT WEIGHTLESS) and even his heart rate.


Which is meaningless. She can easily tell which way the guy will throw the rock when it's a simple action of throwing a rock. It's not hard to figure that out especially when he's of course going to throw it at her. Gaara on the other hand isn't logically sending out the message of huge sand tidal wave by clapping hands together.


> She knows that she has to take him down. If she has CIS to prevent lethal force, the simplest course of action is to encase him by using the ground, the gourd, or both.


It doesn't prevent lethal force, it prevents her from doing anything she never showed the competence of doing.

WHEN did she ever manipulate sand? Especially sand infused with spirit? That's without simply having him float out of her reach.


> The moment Gaara (or more specifically, his sand) makes an aggressive move, she'll know what it's going to do.


Because she can predict the bodily movements of a fodder earth bender...

Since when did she predict the movements of fluid tons and tons of sand? None of the earth benders compare at all.


> Defensive sand isn't in his control. It states this in the manga. It's why Gaara got blown up in the Deidara fight. It clearly shows Deidara's bugs crawling into view, too.


He got blown up because there was clay mixed into his own defensive sand. The defensive sand has a will upon it at the end of the day.


> You all keep forgetting that when Toph grabs a hold of him with the earth, he's screwed. He's not going to just stand there concentrating when it happens, either. He doesn't have the affinity to see what she's doing until it's too late. He can't move away from it, and his only course of action is to hope that he can hit her before she Earth Buries him.


...When? She's not going to grab him. You're still making an empty "she's faster" claim with no proof. Blitzing fodder isn't proof.


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## Kage no Yume (Oct 1, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> How is moving earth 20ft in less than a second (timing myself putting my foot down) not faster than Gaara being unable to stop a guy from jumping what, 10-15 ft in the air, land, and getting away? The distance was considerably less as well!



Deidara = superhuman.  Fodder earth bender is probably normal human speed, going off the fight animation.



> He had how much time to send sand out there? If he didn't send the sand out, it doesn't prove anything, as there's no sand besides what he's got in his gourd.



And the football field's worth he created in seconds?  Really now, if you're going to jump ahead and ignore the majority of my post, at least address the most pressing issues.  You know, the ones that completely tear your arguments apart .



> That's simplifying and ignoring Toph's abilities, while stating that Gaara can "manipulate sand". His manipulation of sand is great, but that's not variety, that's specialization.



No, it's going off of what Toph has shown compared to the large variety of tactics and moves Gaara has.  Sand bullets, sinking her with so much pressure that the incredibly strong CS2 Kimimaro wouldn't have been able to move a finger (and she can't bend without moving can she?), desert grave to immobilize her, desert funeral to crush her, stone-wall crushing sand blasts like he used against Lee, giant sand claws that could crush her by merely falling on her, etc.




> For the guy that threw the rock, she knew it's exact trajectory. I never said she knew Gaara could do that. She knows that he's got a gourd on his back, what his build is, any shift in weight from him or the gourd (which is NOT WEIGHTLESS) and even his heart rate. She knows that she has to take him down. If she has CIS to prevent lethal force, the simplest course of action is to encase him by using the ground, the gourd, or both.



And Gaara, being faster, can completely avoid or nullify her attacks.



> The moment Gaara (or more specifically, his sand) makes an aggressive move, she'll know what it's going to do.



He put his hands together!  Surely that means he's going to send a 50 ft+ wall of sand at me!

Oh, his arms are crossed and he hasn't moved!  He must be ready to fire bullets of sand at me!

He lifted his arm!  Surely he's going to encase me in a ton of sand and crush me!  You know, despite the fact that I know nothing of his abilities!?



> To Kage:
> 
> Defensive sand isn't in his control. It states this in the manga. It's why Gaara got blown up in the Deidara fight. It clearly shows Deidara's bugs crawling into view, too.



Which is why he's shown controlling it constantly, even in that very fight where he sends it over to crush Deidara's arm?

Also, there's no crawling.  He noticed the clay igniting right before it blew him up.  It didn't have to move since it was already a part of his shield and the shockwaves would be contained therein.



> Yes, I'm saying that she would have been able to catch Deidara under the same conditions. Those being that she caught him off guard from the same distance.



Again, you think a fodder earth bender is faster and more experienced than Deidara...



> Sasuke broke through his sand clone's HEAD. It was clearly defined.



Sand clone created by Gaara not moving his hands =/= his defensive wall.  Completely different techniques, completely different durability level, and it doesn't even matter since that was during the chuunin exams.



> In 464, Gaara's hands aren't shown until afterwards, so it's invalid.



So he used a seal and then crossed his arm again before the jutsu was even used?

And the lone page from 464 has him sending out his sand with his arms crossed.

Not to mentions the other examples I cited.




> You all keep forgetting that when Toph grabs a hold of him with the earth, he's screwed. He's not going to just stand there concentrating when it happens, either. He doesn't have the affinity to see what she's doing until it's too late. He can't move away from it, and his only course of action is to hope that he can hit her before she Earth Buries him.



Or he merely turns the earth around him into sand and counters her move.  Or uses kawarimi to escape.  Or flies into the air the instant the earth begins to move due to his large speed advantage and flight ability.  Or his auto-defense spreads out below him, blocking any undesired movement/attack.



> What I saw in here was a guy jump in mid-discussion and simply award Gaara the win.



A blatant fallacy .  

Try to avoid those and address my arguments instead.


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## rockonyx (Oct 1, 2009)

A guy jumped in the air and threw rocks at her, she deflected them. This dispels the belief that she can't sense airborne earth.

Distance feat: A tired Toph shook her arms twice and sent earth from her position, about a mile away (Azula and her gang were barely shapes in the distance). She created multiple ~10 ft high pillars, blocking the lizards that Azula's gang were riding.

Pushed Aang back from inside her stone armor. This proves that she doesn't need to move at all to bend earth touching her, even against someone trying to bend in opposition.

Manipulation feat: Took a meteorite of unknown composition (sharp enough to cut through steel as a sword) and was able to bend it.

Manipulation feat: Cleared the Earth Bending arena of airborne dust. Demonstrates the ability to control fine earth particles.

Manipulation feat: Metal bending. Proves that she can manipulate objects with fine earth particles in them.

Manipulation feat: Turned sand into solid ground so that she would have a solid base for stopping a tower from being buried in the sand. Proves that she can turn sand into solid ground.

Speed feat: Reacted to Azula revealing a knife and sent a rock projectile that pinned her to a wall from over 15 feet away. Azula has faster than eye reaction speed.

This shows that she can move objects faster than the eye can track, can detect airborne objects, can bend foreign materials, bend sand into solid ground, and bend without moving. How's that for proof?


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## Banhammer (Oct 1, 2009)

> Toph moves rocks, pulling them out of the ground or what have you.
> Gaara infuses sand with his chakra, making it much more powerful than normal.



Arbitrary statement

Toph can pull huge boulders and hold asgardian builldings. Gaara can't lift anything much bigger than two millimeters. So I can easly argue Gaara's method of using chakra to use sand is actually much weaker.


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## rockonyx (Oct 1, 2009)

One more thing. The only example of Gaara moving at faster than eye speed is through KnJ. It's the only technique that allows him to move like that. That's the ruling I want for KnJ. It's an ability that allows the person to teleport and switch places with an object. It has no bearing on overall speed!

He has nothing to KnJ with, so he has no way of stopping Toph from catching him from below. Gaara saw Kimi's bone field coming, and Rock had more than enough time to react to it. He simply was unable to move because of his exhaustion.


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## Kage no Yume (Oct 1, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> A guy jumped in the air and threw rocks at her, she deflected them. This dispels the belief that she can't sense airborne earth.



When was this?



> Distance feat: A tired Toph shook her arms twice and sent earth from her position, about a mile away (Azula and her gang were barely shapes in the distance). She created multiple ~10 ft high pillars, blocking the lizards that Azula's gang were riding.



They weren't that far.  Didn't Mai reach Toph a few seconds after that?  It's hard to argue these feats without evidence though.  As the one espousing it, you could at least provide the episode number.



> Pushed Aang back from inside her stone armor. This proves that she doesn't need to move at all to bend earth touching her, even against someone trying to bend in opposition.



Again, need evidence.



> Manipulation feat: Took a meteorite of unknown composition (sharp enough to cut through steel as a sword) and was able to bend it.



How did she bend it?  And what does this have to do with this fight?



> Manipulation feat: Cleared the Earth Bending arena of airborne dust. Demonstrates the ability to control fine earth particles.



Free floating dirt =/= chakra enforced sand.



> Manipulation feat: Metal bending. Proves that she can manipulate objects with fine earth particles in them.



Still not very relative to the fight.  Massive amounts of chakra enforced sand =/= a few specks of rock in metal.



> Manipulation feat: Turned sand into solid ground so that she would have a solid base for stopping a tower from being buried in the sand. Proves that she can turn sand into solid ground.



She's still not as good with sand as Gaara.  Nowhere near it.

And she wouldn't have been able to do anything to the tower were it not made of stone.



> Speed feat: Reacted to Azula revealing a knife and sent a rock projectile that pinned her to a wall from over 15 feet away. Azula has faster than eye reaction speed.



And faster than the eye can see reaction speed was shown when?  Note how we can see all attacks in real-time, even when no bullet-timing is used.

Not only that, but with her vibration sensing, she knew that Azula was pulling the knife before she actually revealed it.



> This shows that she can move objects faster than the eye can track, can detect airborne objects, can bend foreign materials, bend sand into solid ground, and bend without moving. How's that for proof?



Speed is still insufficient, sand still messes with her senses and I need more evidence for the airborne feat, foreign materials feat is rather pointless, sand bending still nowhere near Gaara's level (solid football field worth of ground into sand in seconds), and you didn't even mention bending without moving.



rockonyx said:


> One more thing. The only example of Gaara moving at faster than eye speed is through KnJ. It's the only technique that allows him to move like that. That's the ruling I want for KnJ. It's an ability that allows the person to teleport and switch places with an object. It has no bearing on overall speed!



No teleportation involved.  It's a physical switch, mentioned both in the manga itself and the databook.

Not that it matters as it's only a small speed feat.  Better ones include blocking explosions (very, very fast), keeping up with Kimimaro (faster than weightless Lee), blocking Raikage's strike mere inches from its target, and forcing the shunshin master Sasuke to use Amaterasu to guard.



> He has nothing to KnJ with, so he has no way of stopping Toph from catching him from below. Gaara saw Kimi's bone field coming, and Rock had more than enough time to react to it. He simply was unable to move because of his exhaustion.



Lee was tired from what?  He only got a few scratches from the fight, and nothing indicated that he put too much strain on himself.  Gaara had to restrain him from jumping back into the fight.

And again you forget the auto-shield which would nullify any attack from below, as well as the kawarimi speed which he could use to escape.






Banhammer said:


> Arbitrary statement
> 
> Toph can pull huge boulders and hold asgardian builldings. Gaara can't lift anything much bigger than two millimeters. So I can easly argue Gaara's method of using chakra to use sand is actually much weaker.



He blocked a village destroying explosion and lifted what was surely hundreds of tons of sand.  I'll give you Toph's strength advantage only when it concerns large pieces of earth or stone being manipulated.


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## rockonyx (Oct 1, 2009)

Kage no Yume said:


> When was this?



First episode she was in. Chap. 2, Ep. 6.



> They weren't that far.  Didn't Mai reach Toph a few seconds after that?  It's hard to argue these feats without evidence though.  As the one espousing it, you could at least provide the episode number.



She was farther than any distance Gaara has ever been from his opponent. The lizards just move extremely fast. They keep a pace with Appa. Chap. 2, Ep. 8.



> Again, need evidence.



Chapt. 2, Ep. 9. Also, has Gaara ever had to contend with someone controlling his sand? I think not. This give Toph an edge when she bends his sand into earth.



> How did she bend it?  And what does this have to do with this fight?



She made a spiral, a five-pointed star, and an abstract shape. She did this moments after receiving it. It proves that she can bend earth of questionable composition with ease. Chakra-laced sand is still sand. Chap. 3, Ep. 4.



> Free floating dirt =/= chakra enforced sand.



Still not very relative to the fight.  Massive amounts of chakra enforced sand =/= a few specks of rock in metal.[/quote]

It demonstrates her ability to pick out specks and manipulate them. Combined with her proven ability to change sand into solid ground, this proves that she has the means to solidify and use Gaara's sand.



> She's still not as good with sand as Gaara.  Nowhere near it.



Not arguing that. I'm arguing that she would solidify it into earth.



> And she wouldn't have been able to do anything to the tower were it not made of stone.



Irrelevant.



> And faster than the eye can see reaction speed was shown when?  Note how we can see all attacks in real-time, even when no bullet-timing is used.



I'm going by the profile on this one. I know that Azula's done plenty of crazy things, but I'd have to try and find specific examples. You'd literally have to freeze frame to see if there's motion of Azula being thrown back before she gets pinned. Viewing it normally, it's literally, empty frame, impact, recoil. Chap. 3, Ep. 11.



> Not only that, but with her vibration sensing, she knew that Azula was pulling the knife before she actually revealed it.



Regardless, she reacted and hit Azula before Azula could even begin to react. Chap. 3, Ep. 11.



> Speed is still insufficient, sand still messes with her senses and I need more evidence for the airborne feat, foreign materials feat is rather pointless, sand bending still nowhere near Gaara's level (solid football field worth of ground into sand in seconds), and you didn't even mention bending without moving.



I could have sworn we covered the sand thing. If not, here's the proof. She creates an finely detailed replica of the entire city of Bah Sing Sei, including accurate depictions of people. This was Chap. 3, Ep.5.



> No teleportation involved.  It's a physical switch, mentioned both in the manga itself and the databook.



Yet, Gaara never shows himself capable of that speed outside of the technique. I contend that the move itself is a special speed boosting technique, and not indicative of a character's real movement ability.



> Not that it matters as it's only a small speed feat.  Better ones include blocking explosions (very, very fast), keeping up with Kimimaro (faster than weightless Lee), blocking Raikage's strike mere inches from its target, and forcing the shunshin master Sasuke to use Amaterasu to guard.



Again, defensive feats are not Gaara's. The sand acts on its own to defend Gaara, regardless of his will. He blocks Raikage's hit, but how long was he standing there? For all we know, he started as they began fighting.



> Lee was tired from what?  He only got a few scratches from the fight, and nothing indicated that he put too much strain on himself.  Gaara had to restrain him from jumping back into the fight.



Except that he recently got out of surgery, was fighting Kimimaro past his normal capabilites for an unknown length of time, and was drunk just before Gaara stepped in.



> And again you forget the auto-shield which would nullify any attack from below, as well as the kawarimi speed which he could use to escape.



The ground is already touching him. There's no room for the guard to intercept. Grabbing his legs is merely an act of moving the earth upward. I also argue that he'd barely have time to process how the earth grabbed his feat without any seals.

Remember, in this scenario, Gaara has no reason to believe that she can manipulate earth. Toph can reasonably deduce that he needs the sand gourd for something, and she's used to earth benders. She can expect him to use the sand from his gourd.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 1, 2009)

> Arbitrary statement
> 
> Toph can pull huge boulders and hold asgardian builldings. Gaara can't lift anything much bigger than two millimeters. So I can easly argue Gaara's method of using chakra to use sand is actually much weaker.



Arbitrary argument.

Size or volume or what have you isn't the point of the presented quote. 

Toph's rocks are normal rocks that she pulls out of the ground. 
Gaara's sand is infused with his chakra. Not normal at all.

Maybe Toph can lift more than Gaara can, but if a rock is still a rock, it must have the strength of rock, non? 

Rock Lee's got rock shattering kicks, but it couldn't get past Gaara's sand.



> Also, has Gaara ever had to contend with someone controlling his sand? I think not. This give Toph an edge when she bends his sand into earth.



Has Toph ever had to contend with someone opposing her earthbending that isn't a rank amateur like Aang?



> Yet, Gaara never shows himself capable of that speed outside of the technique. I contend that the move itself is a special speed boosting technique, and not indicative of a character's real movement ability.



He clones himself behind Toph and snaps her neck like a twig. 



> Remember, in this scenario, Gaara has no reason to believe that she can manipulate earth


 Saving when she starts throwing rocks at him.


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## rockonyx (Oct 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Has Toph ever had to contend with someone opposing her earthbending that isn't a rank amateur like Aang?



You're right. Bad example. It only proves that she can bend against opposition while immobile. For strength, see Chap. 2, Ep. 10. The constantly mentioned feat where she holds up a library against the spirit controlling it. It's the equivalent of bending against a chakra force. Hey, isn't there something like that controlling Gaara's sand? Note that she does this for an extended amount of time, as Aang and Co have time to do research, AND escape before she lets go. Find an equivalent strength or stamina feat for Gaara.



> He clones himself behind Toph and snaps her neck like a twig.



Has no way of doing so. There's no sand save what he has in his gourd, nor anything else to replace himself with. Even if he could teleport, he'd certainly not be able to snap her neck. He's got no hand-to-hand strength. It would actually be better for her. Her ability to bend is faster and stronger when she's touching the object. She could go for a punch, and when the autoguard intercepts, bend it back through Gaara's face.



> Saving when she starts throwing rocks at him.



She's not throwing rocks.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 1, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> Note that she does this for an extended amount of time, as Aang and Co have time to do research, AND escape before she lets go.



Yeah...no. They'd already done the research and were escaping when Wan Shi Tong started chasing them. You act as if she'd done it for hours.



> Has no way of doing so. There's no sand save what he has in his gourd, nor anything else to replace himself with.



Yeah, because it's not like he can make more...oh wait, he can can't he? Not that he needs to, seeing how the sand in his gourd will more than suffice, as already demonstrated. 



> She's not throwing rocks.



Throwing rocks, bending earth, tomayto tomahto.


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## rockonyx (Oct 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Yeah...no. They'd already done the research and were escaping when Wan Shi Tong started chasing them. You act as if she'd done it for hours.



Aang and Sokka went BACK to the Planetarium, and manually adjusted it for each day for up to two months. This is a three part process. They have to set the day, pull the lever, and then wait for the planetarium to adjust. Then, they had time to knock out beat Wan Shi and escape. That's a considerable amount of time.



> Yeah, because it's not like he can make more...oh wait, he can can't he? Not that he needs to, seeing how the sand in his gourd will more than suffice, as already demonstrated.



Irrelevant if he CAN make more, since he won't have time to. He has a fraction of a second to make enough sand on reaction to KnJ her grabbing his feet from contact. You have no proof that he can pull this off.


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## neodragzero (Oct 1, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> Aang and Sokka went BACK to the Planetarium, and manually adjusted it for each day for up to two months. This is a three part process. They have to set the day, pull the lever, and then wait for the planetarium to adjust. Then, they had time to knock out beat Wan Shi and escape. That's a considerable amount of time.


The Planetarium takes nowhere near the amount of time it skips over to for the comet reveal. It's not a long process.


> Irrelevant if he CAN make more, since he won't have time to. He has a fraction of a second to make enough sand on reaction to KnJ her grabbing his feet from contact. You have no proof that he can pull this off.


Actually, you keep posting the positive that she's simply faster than him. You still haven't proven that. The burden is still on you.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 1, 2009)

> Aang and Sokka went BACK to the Planetarium, and had time to adjust it for each day up to two months. Then, they had time to knock out beat Wan Shi and escape. That's a considerable amount of time.



If by "a considerable amount of time" you mean "a few minutes at most" then yes.



> Irrelevant if he CAN make more, since he won't have time to.



Yeah, because he'll be totally and completely incapacitated .0000000000001 yoctoseconds into the fight.



> He has a fraction of a second to make enough sand on reaction to KnJ her grabbing his feet from contact.



Alternately, he could swap with a Sand Clone and make sand to his heart's content while Toph is still trying to kill the clone.


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## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> If by "a considerable amount of time" you mean "a few minutes at most" then yes.



It took 20 seconds of real time to do the whole thing the first time. 20 secs x 60 times= 1200 seconds, or 20 minutes. She was holding up the building for over 20 minutes.



> Yeah, because he'll be totally and completely incapacitated .0000000000001 yoctoseconds into the fight.



Pulling random numbers doesn't help you.



> Alternately, he could swap with a Sand Clone and make sand to his heart's content while Toph is still trying to kill the clone.



You keep mentioning a sand clone, yet provide no means for him to make this clone from anything other than the gourd on his back. Again, the gourd is ON HIS BACK. He has nowhere to KnJ.



neodragzero said:


> The Planetarium takes nowhere near the amount of time it skips over to for the comet reveal. It's not a long process.



See above.



> Actually, you keep posting the positive that she's simply faster than him. You still haven't proven that. The burden is still on you.



There's never been any evidence that Gaara's reaction speed is faster than eye. His ability to move sand has never been shown to be faster than eye. His autoguard doesn't count, as he doesn't control it.

His fight with Deidara shows that: 
1) His reaction speed is rather slow. By the time Gaara noticed the bird Deidara sent, it was in his face, and his autoguard was defending it.
2) Within a certain distance, his autoguard can't protect him.
3) He isn't attuned to his sand. He wasn't even aware of the bugs until they showed up.

If you all want to challenge Azula's reaction speed, which is posted on her profile, perhaps you should do what I did to Gaara's supposed speed. Disprove it. I'm tired of putting up all the feats Toph has, and you all offering nothing besides, "Gaara's better".


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## neodragzero (Oct 2, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> See above.


Nope, I simply said it doesn't take long. 20 minutes isn't a big deal.


> There's never been any evidence that Gaara's reaction speed is faster than eye. His ability to move sand has never been shown to be faster than eye. His autoguard doesn't count, as he doesn't control it.


He was able to easily make a sand clone while fighting Rock Lee with gates open. The sand clone isn't an automatic defense. The Sand Coffin isn't an automatic defense. The sand armor isn't automatic defense. He has caught both Rock Lee and Kimmimaro before the time skip even happened. Both of those characters are obviously well beyond just peak human speed.


> His fight with Deidara shows that:
> 1) His reaction speed is rather slow. By the time Gaara noticed the bird Deidara sent, it was in his face, and his autoguard was defending it.
> 2) Within a certain distance, his autoguard can't protect him.
> 3) He isn't attuned to his sand. He wasn't even aware of the bugs until they showed up.


In other words, you're making a claim that Gaara is slow, while ignoring past bouts in general, by claiming that Deidara and his clay animals are slow...because what again?


> If you all want to challenge Azula's reaction speed, which is posted on her profile, perhaps you should do what I did to Gaara's supposed speed. Disprove it. I'm tired of putting up all the feats Toph has, and you all offering nothing besides, "Gaara's better".


Disprove what? You haven't proven Toph's speed to be superior.


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## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> Nope, I simply said it doesn't take long. 20 minutes isn't a big deal.



Against the spiritual force that controls it? Yeah that is. Especially since this proves that she can bend against powerful opposition.



> He was able to easily make a sand clone while fighting Rock Lee with gates open. The sand clone isn't an automatic defense. The Sand Coffin isn't an automatic defense. The sand armor isn't automatic defense. He has caught both Rock Lee and Kimmimaro before the time skip even happened. Both of those characters are obviously well beyond just peak human speed.



Already been there about KnJ. He caught a broken down Lee with Sand Coffin, and Kimi was held at the ankles after Gaara used a diversion. That doesn't demonstrate speed at all. He never touched Kimi with his sand until that point, even when Kimi was in midair. 

We don't know when he created the Sand Armor, we only know that he had it when Lee hit him. Considering that Lee was already showing incredible speed, why wouldn't he put up Sand Armor the moment Lee showed it, or when Lee first tore through his guard? He couldn't even track Lee when he took off the weights.



> In other words, you're making a claim that Gaara is slow, while ignoring past bouts in general, by claiming that Deidara and his clay animals are slow...because what again?



No, I'm claiming that Gaara is slow, but his autoguard is fast. In the Deidara fight, Deidara wasn't even moving at faster-than-eye speeds. The people below could track him. Gaara still had a hard time catching him, and did so only by leading him into a situation so his personal sand could finally move straight at him (think pack of lions versus faster prey). I was being polite by not mentioning how he couldn't physically track Weightless Lee. Okay, that's a lie. I was waiting for you to bring that up.


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## neodragzero (Oct 2, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> Against the spiritual force that controls it? Yeah that is. Especially since this proves that she can bend against powerful opposition.


She bends with the involvement of a stone structure. One that's simply committing a single action rather than moving around in differing angles. It doesn't compare at all.


> Already been there about KnJ. He caught a broken down Lee with Sand Coffin, and Kimi was held at the ankles after Gaara used a diversion. That doesn't demonstrate speed at all. He never touched Kimi with his sand until that point, even when Kimi was in midair.


In other words, you're trying to say that Gaara is slow because Toph suddenly has the same speed as Lee and Kimi since when exactly? Kimi still finds himself claiming after the sand coffin that he won't get caught again...until he has a football field+ worth of sand dump on top of him. He even reacts in time to float Lee and himself up out of harm's way against Kimi's last technique.


> We don't know when he created the Sand Armor, we only know that he had it when Lee hit him. Considering that Lee was already showing incredible speed, why wouldn't he put up Sand Armor the moment Lee showed it, or when Lee first tore through his guard? He couldn't even track Lee when he took off the weights.


He only uses it when his automatic defense fails to keep up. This much was explained. There's no suggestion whatsoever he keeps it on beforehand like that. Especially when using it has drawbacks. I rather trust Kankuro's comments than yours.


> No, I'm claiming that Gaara is slow, but his autoguard is fast. In the Deidara fight, Deidara wasn't even moving at faster-than-eye speeds. The people below could track him.


Superhuman shinobi from a far distance can see what Deidara is doing. I guess that means that jets are slow then. You really don't comprehend the concept of relative distance vision?

You do realize that faster-than-eye speed refers to a general peak human limit. It's about as great as minimum feat level goes as a verse simply having superhuman characters. Stop putting so much weight upon it being special in a verse like Narutoverse.


> Gaara still had a hard time catching him, and did so only by leading him into a situation so his personal sand could finally move straight at him (think pack of lions versus faster prey). I was being polite by not mentioning how he couldn't physically track Weightless Lee. Okay, that's a lie. I was waiting for you to bring that up.


In other words, you keep claiming that Toph is fast because Gaara is slower than characters with actual speed feats that Toph doesn't have at all. I still see no proof that her speed compares at all to characters that are beyond that of general low level shinobi with superhuman performance.


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## Plague (Oct 2, 2009)

Listen up tricks. Gaara wins this in his sleep. He can make clones for god sake! Plus, Toph CAN'T SEE IN SAND!

Then theres Gaaras Sand Ocean, not to mention the guy blocked a bomb with the strength to destroy an entire village with his sand! 

Anyone who chose Toph was a fucking moron. Shes good in her own way, but she can't even hope to defeat Pre-Time skip Gaara. She has no chance against Kazekage Gaara.


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## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

Time out, so the OBD profile speeds aren't universal? Then what's the point of them?


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 2, 2009)

> It took 20 seconds of real time to do the whole thing the first time. 20 secs x 60 times= 1200 seconds, or 20 minutes. She was holding up the building for over 20 minutes.



Where are you getting this sixty times number? Did they run back and forth from where Wan Shi Tong was and the observatory sixty times? Cause I gotta say I don't remember that.

Or are you just arbitrarily labeling a second of Avatar time with a minute of real time, cause if you're just gonna make shit up at least go for the gold. 1 second=five days. That makes what? 100 days? That's nearly a third of a year.



> Pulling random numbers doesn't help you.



He said, conspicuously avoiding making any real argument.



> You keep mentioning a sand clone, yet provide no means for him to make this clone from anything other than the gourd on his back. Again, the gourd is ON HIS BACK. He has nowhere to KnJ.



In a split second, while dozens of feet in midair, Gaara created a sand clone, using the sand on his back, switched places with it, and hid himself so as to be undetectable. All so fast that only Kakashi noticed, despite there being a building full of people watching.

Downplaying Gaara's abilities will get you nowhere.


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## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Where are you getting this sixty times number? Did they run back and forth from where Wan Shi Tong was and the observatory sixty times? Cause I gotta say I don't remember that.
> 
> Or are you just arbitrarily labeling a second of Avatar time with a minute of real time, cause if you're just gonna make shit up at least go for the gold. 1 second=five days. That makes what? 100 days? That's nearly a third of a year.



2 months equals 60 days. 20 seconds for the three actions I mentioned. It's simple math.



> He said, conspicuously avoiding making any real argument.



Argument against what? You pulled a random number out for no apparent reason.



> In a split second, while dozens of feet in midair, Gaara created a sand clone, using the sand on his back, switched places with it, and hid himself so as to be undetectable. All so fast that only Kakashi noticed, despite there being a building full of people watching.
> 
> Downplaying Gaara's abilities will get you nowhere.



Really? I could have sworn that he used his sand armor to do it, and then hid himself in the sand that had been tossed around the entire fight. The "clone" was hollow, which means it wasn't an actual sand clone like what he used against Sasuke. He WAS covered in sand when he reappeared.

I argue that if there's no sand on the ground, he has no way of using the technique. The counter argument is apparently that he made his sand armor just before Lee hit him, which I counter is highly improbable, since it shows in the source that he couldn't physically react to Lee at the time.


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## Kage no Yume (Oct 2, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> First episode she was in. Chap. 2, Ep. 6.



Well, considering that she knew exactly what he was holding, she heard him throw it, and her sense of hearing is superhuman, that doesn't point to much.




> She was farther than any distance Gaara has ever been from his opponent. The lizards just move extremely fast. They keep a pace with Appa. Chap. 2, Ep. 8.



Except for, you know, Gaara pulling tons of sand from outside of his village.  

And I suggest watching the episode again.  They weren't father than Deidara was during their airborne fight.  Also, it wasn't the lizards keeping pace with Appa, it was the tank they were traveling in.



> Chapt. 2, Ep. 9. Also, has Gaara ever had to contend with someone controlling his sand? I think not. This give Toph an edge when she bends his sand into earth.



She did perform a bending move.  If she hadn't gotten in that stance, she wouldn't have been able to exert that force.  So unless she gets caught while in that stance, she's not going to be able to use that one forward movement.

It's not as though she's been shown performing anything other than sliding forward under the same circumstances.



> She made a spiral, a five-pointed star, and an abstract shape. She did this moments after receiving it. It proves that she can bend earth of questionable composition with ease. Chakra-laced sand is still sand. Chap. 3, Ep. 4.



Since when is chakra related to composition?  And no, the tower doesn't count.  It was bending, not chakra controlled movement.  Unless you have evidence otherwise?



> It demonstrates her ability to pick out specks and manipulate them. Combined with her proven ability to change sand into solid ground, this proves that she has the means to solidify and use Gaara's sand.
> 
> Not arguing that. I'm arguing that she would solidify it into earth.



She made a small platform about 4 feet wide.

Gaara created enough to fill a football field with even less movement (she had to bend down and touch and twist the sand.  He just spread his legs and clapped his hands together).



> I'm going by the profile on this one. I know that Azula's done plenty of crazy things, but I'd have to try and find specific examples. You'd literally have to freeze frame to see if there's motion of Azula being thrown back before she gets pinned. Viewing it normally, it's literally, empty frame, impact, recoil. Chap. 3, Ep. 11.



Then speed calc it, or have someone do it for you.  Either way, it's not going to stack up against someone like Kimimaro



> Regardless, she reacted and hit Azula before Azula could even begin to react. Chap. 3, Ep. 11.



Again, relative speed.  Azula probably couldn't keep up with weighted Rock Lee, let alone weightless Lee or Kimimaro.



> I could have sworn we covered the sand thing. If not, here's the proof. She creates an finely detailed replica of the entire city of Bah Sing Sei, including accurate depictions of people. This was Chap. 3, Ep.5.



Are you sure?  Looked through it, but didn't spot anything.

Either way, the question is on the size and strength capabilities of her sand bending.  She hasn't shown anything on pre-skip Gaara's level, let alone Kazekage Gaara.



> Yet, Gaara never shows himself capable of that speed outside of the technique. I contend that the move itself is a special speed boosting technique, and not indicative of a character's real movement ability.



That's because he doesn't have to move.  That's not his style of fighting.  All he normally does is stand in one place and use his sand, or fly and use his sand.



> Again, defensive feats are not Gaara's. The sand acts on its own to defend Gaara, regardless of his will. He blocks Raikage's hit, but how long was he standing there? For all we know, he started as they began fighting.



There was no sand in the immediate area when Raikage's leg was inches from Sasuke's Amaterasu.  So unless you're implying that the sand was invisible or something...

Defensive feats still protect him from anything Toph throws against him, unless you think his auto-defense is off in this match or something.  And the Raikage feat and Kimimaro feats still stand and put him far beyond anyone in the Avatar verse.



> Except that he recently got out of surgery, was fighting Kimimaro past his normal capabilites for an unknown length of time, and was drunk just before Gaara stepped in.



He showed no signs on exhaustion, was even ready to use omote renge and the first gate, and his drunkenness actually improved his fighting ability.



> The ground is already touching him. There's no room for the guard to intercept. Grabbing his legs is merely an act of moving the earth upward. I also argue that he'd barely have time to process how the earth grabbed his feat without any seals.



His sand can infuse itself with the ground, so it could easily disarm such a tactic.  Or he could just turn the earth into sand or create sand under it and lift the area up with him at which point Toph would lose control due to loss of contact.

He'd have ample time due to the immense speed difference, even without his auto-guard.  As mentioned, he can kawarimi or fly with the same speed that avoided DotSF.



> Remember, in this scenario, Gaara has no reason to believe that she can manipulate earth. Toph can reasonably deduce that he needs the sand gourd for something, and she's used to earth benders. She can expect him to use the sand from his gourd.



Because no one in the Naruto verse uses earth.  And because he won't notice the rumbling and movement as the attack travels to him right?



rockonyx said:


> Time out, so the OBD profile speeds aren't universal? Then what's the point of them?



To give a general idea.  They are pretty much worthless otherwise though.



> Really? I could have sworn that he used his sand armor to do it, and then hid himself in the sand that had been tossed around the entire fight. The "clone" was hollow, which means it wasn't an actual sand clone like what he used against Sasuke. He WAS covered in sand when he reappeared.
> 
> I argue that if there's no sand on the ground, he has no way of using the technique. The counter argument is apparently that he made his sand armor just before Lee hit him, which I counter is highly improbable, since it shows in the source that he couldn't physically react to Lee at the time.




That argument doesn't work.  He wasn't on the ground at the time he used it, and the only sand in the arena was that from his gourd.  So he can do it with the sand in his gourd alone, much faster than Toph can attack him.

And again, more than a football field's worth in seconds, with less movement than it took Toph to make a small 4 ft wide platform.  And that was pre-skip.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Oct 2, 2009)

> 2 months equals 60 days. 20 seconds for the three actions I mentioned.



Yay for for more arbitrary(I just love that word. Arbritrary. ^_^) numbers that have nothing to do with eachother.





> Argument against what? You pulled a random number out for no apparent reason.



He said, in order to further avoid the argument.



> Really? I could have sworn that he used his sand armor to do it


 Think for a moment, where he got the sand armor in the first place. Since there's no sand anywhere in the vicinty except for that handy gourd he always carries around, it doesn't take a leap to assume that he got it from the gourd.

I believe the appropriate term here is "Derp"



> I argue that if there's no sand on the ground, he has no way of using the technique.


A completely baseless argument.



> The counter argument is apparently that he made his sand armor just before Lee hit him, which I counter is highly improbable, since it shows in the source that he couldn't physically react to Lee at the time.



He was relying on his sand shield, having no reason to doubt that it would protect him, and was therefore caught off guard.

He later proved that he was fast enough to perform two or three different jutsus in the time it takes for Lee to blink, to the point where, again, only Kakashi out of an entire building full of people noticed.

I'll say it again. Downplaying Gaara's abilities will get you nowhere.


----------



## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

Kage no Yume said:


> Well, considering that she knew exactly what he was holding, she heard him throw it, and her sense of hearing is superhuman, that doesn't point to much.



Then how is Gaara supposed to make any move with his sand, outside of KnJ, that she won't immediately be able to react to? Even when he comes out of it, she'll know where he is and what he's doing.



> Except for, you know, Gaara pulling tons of sand from outside of his village.
> 
> And I suggest watching the episode again.  They weren't father than Deidara was during their airborne fight.  Also, it wasn't the lizards keeping pace with Appa, it was the tank they were traveling in.



You're right. I watched it again and Deidara's distance compared to Gaara's when he was getting flung back into the Sand Coffin was around or greater.



> She did perform a bending move.  If she hadn't gotten in that stance, she wouldn't have been able to exert that force.  So unless she gets caught while in that stance, she's not going to be able to use that one forward movement.
> 
> It's not as though she's been shown performing anything other than sliding forward under the same circumstances.



What stance? She was standing straight up with her arms outstretched. Sliding forward means that she can get out of Sand Coffin, which is assuming that it ever gets the chance to hit.



> Since when is chakra related to composition?  And no, the tower doesn't count.  It was bending, not chakra controlled movement.  Unless you have evidence otherwise?



Since fusing things with chakra makes them denser.



> She made a small platform about 4 feet wide.
> 
> Gaara created enough to fill a football field with even less movement (she had to bend down and touch and twist the sand.  He just spread his legs and clapped his hands together).



Anime shows him doing seals first, then clapping. It also shows the process of the sand rising being a lot slower. The first time it shows her bending sand, she has to do more. In episode 318, where she makes Ba Sing Se, she just touches the ground.



> Then speed calc it, or have someone do it for you.  Either way, it's not going to stack up against someone like Kimimaro



She just needs faster-than-eye reactions. Gaara doesn't have that, and I've demonstrated that on multiple occasions.



> Again, relative speed.  Azula probably couldn't keep up with weighted Rock Lee, let alone weightless Lee or Kimimaro.



Weighted Lee wasn't even faster-than-eye. Gaara couldn't keep up with Kimi either. That's why he had to trap him.



> Are you sure?  Looked through it, but didn't spot anything.
> 
> Either way, the question is on the size and strength capabilities of her sand bending.  She hasn't shown anything on pre-skip Gaara's level, let alone Kazekage Gaara.



My mistake. It's 318. 305 is the one with the "villains" going to the beach. The question is not about the size or strength. It's about speed.



> That's because he doesn't have to move.  That's not his style of fighting.  All he normally does is stand in one place and use his sand, or fly and use his sand.



So you're saying that he has faster-than-eye reaction because he never showed it, showed that he didn't have it, and because he never had a reason to train it?



> There was no sand in the immediate area when Raikage's leg was inches from Sasuke's Amaterasu.  So unless you're implying that the sand was invisible or something...



Again, we didn't see when Gaara came in, or how much time he had to send the sand out. If I show a close up of a ball about to hit the ground, and then my hand catching it an inch from the ground, does that mean I have superhuman speed? No. You have no other information about my location or actions previous to that moment.



> Defensive feats still protect him from anything Toph throws against him, unless you think his auto-defense is off in this match or something.  And the Raikage feat and Kimimaro feats still stand and put him far beyond anyone in the Avatar verse.



She's not throwing anything at him. She's coming from under him. Her basic bending feats show that she can move earth almost instantly. Since she doesn't need a lot to trap Gaara, she doesn't have to make grand gestures.



> He showed no signs on exhaustion, was even ready to use omote renge and the first gate, and his drunkenness actually improved his fighting ability.



Yes, he had better fighting ability while drunk. Not sober, so he could actually feel the strain he was causing his body. Even Tsunade said that he should be resting, and wasn't even ready to train (without hurting himself) yet.



> His sand can infuse itself with the ground, so it could easily disarm such a tactic.  Or he could just turn the earth into sand or create sand under it and lift the area up with him at which point Toph would lose control due to loss of contact.
> 
> He'd have ample time due to the immense speed difference, even without his auto-guard.  As mentioned, he can kawarimi or fly with the same speed that avoided DotSF.



Already disproved his speed against DotSF. He saw it coming from where Kimi was sunk. He had plenty of time to fly. KnJ is a speed boosting technique. Lee wasn't moving at faster-than-eye as he lifted Gaara, so Gaara didn't need faster-than-eye reflexes to KnJ. Gaara hasn't shown physical speed outside of that.

Toph's ability to see and move floating earth has already been proven.



> Because no one in the Naruto verse uses earth.  And because he won't notice the rumbling and movement as the attack travels to him right?



Jiroubou is the only one (off-hand) to use earth so far. Gaara never met him. She makes no seals, and has no equipment. She's not moving anything at him from her. She's literally moving the earth at point blank to catch him. Even the Dai Li haven't been able to counter that, and she lifted them to the ceiling!



> That argument doesn't work.  He wasn't on the ground at the time he used it, and the only sand in the arena was that from his gourd.  So he can do it with the sand in his gourd alone, much faster than Toph can attack him.



There was at LEAST the sand from his autoguard, which was attempting to catch up with him and Lee. In fact, that sand magically disappeared only after Lee wrapped up Gaara. It seems rather apparent that the sand was no longer there because Gaara KnJ'ed to it. This confirms that he needs to KnJ to sand present outside of physical contact.

Here's the play-by-play.

Toph gets an instant reading on Gaara, and assumes he's an earth bender, and probably a sand bender because of the gourd (210 & 211 shows knowledge of sand benders). 

Toph steps on the ground. 

Gaara, expecting a seal, uncorks his gourd. Toph bends the earth underneath him a split-second after she steps, shooting up in front of him (feat shown throughout the series). 

This surprises Gaara, keeping him from doing another action for the next second (ref: vs Lee). In this time, Toph steps again, making the earth rise behind him. 

Gaara reacts.

Toph claps hands and crushes him between the two. END MATCH.

If autoguard keeps him from being crushed, Toph simply adds layers, as Gaara has no room to make the seals needed to turn the earth into sand (ref: vs. Kimi fight). Gaara is suffocated.

IF Gaara KnJs (which assumes a lot for Gaara's case), she can literally grab him with earth the moment he reappears wherever he is. She repeats the process.



> To give a general idea.  They are pretty much worthless otherwise though.



This may all be pointless then, if faster-than-eye in Avatar isn't the same as faster-than-eye in Naruto.


----------



## Narcissus (Oct 2, 2009)

Who the hell made a dupe to revive this shit? All the evidence in this proves that Gaara would destroy Toph. All this is is wanking. Gaara's earth manipulation was well above Toph's back in his fight with Kimimaro. This is just sad.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 2, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> Toph gets an instant reading on Gaara, and assumes he's an earth bender, and probably a sand bender because of the gourd (210 & 211 shows knowledge of sand benders).
> 
> Toph steps on the ground, only to discover she's suddenly dead on account of Gaara's Sand Coffin.
> 
> Gaara does a funk-tastic dance, and gives a thumbs up. The end



I'm glad you agree.


----------



## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Who the hell made a dupe to revive this shit? All the evidence in this proves that Gaara would destroy Toph. All this is is wanking. Gaara's earth manipulation was well above Toph's back in his fight with Kimimaro. This is just sad.



Explain. I've shown that Gaara's reaction speed is less than faster-than-eye, that Toph can move earth almost instantly, with little movement, and that Gaara needs seals to turn ground into sand. I've shown that Gaara's offensive sand has never been shown to be anywhere near faster-than-eye, that in order to do any jutsu, he needs signs/seals/whatever, which are far below faster-than-eye speed, and he needs sand outside of himself to KnJ. I've shown instances where she bent earth without moving, because it was touching her. She has reaction, ability, and movement speed feats that eclipse Gaara's.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 2, 2009)

How dare you suggest that Gaara has no rythm!



> I've shown that Gaara's reaction speed is less than faster-than-eye,


No you haven't.



> that Gaara needs seals to turn ground into sand



Except that he doesn't.



> I've shown that Gaara's offensive sand has never been shown to be anywhere near faster-than-eye,


 Based on your downplaying the ability of every relevant Naruto character. 



> that in order to do any jutsu, he needs signs/seals/whatever,


He's got like one jutsu that requires seals. 



> which are far below faster-than-eye speed


Based on your downplaying the ability of every relevant Naruto character. 



> and he needs sand outside of himself to KnJ



Which he both has and can make at any point.



> She has reaction, ability, and movement speed feats that eclipse Gaara's.



Yes, but only if you completely ignore all of Gaara's feats.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 2, 2009)

Gaara wins. The loli with the big feet loses because she lacks the power.


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## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

You should watch more anime. Lee fight proves he can't react to faster than eye, and that to KnJ, he needs sand outside his person (not on his back). Kimi fight shows him doing seals, and the databook puts Kazekage Gaara's speed at Dosu's level. Dosu has never shown faster-than-eye movement, either. A weighted, off-balanced, injured Lee caught up with him. Gaara's SLOW.


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## Plague (Oct 2, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> You should watch more anime. Lee fight proves he can't react to faster than eye, and that to KnJ, he needs sand outside his person (not on his back). Kimi fight shows him doing seals, and the databook puts Kazekage Gaara's speed at Dosu's level. Dosu has never shown faster-than-eye movement, either. A weighted, off-balanced, injured Lee caught up with him. Gaara's SLOW.




Even if he is, he still survived an 8 gate beating from Lee. An endurance feat Toph couldn't possibly fathom. 

So after a little pummeling, Gaara uses Sand Ocean.


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## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

You should read my posts, first. She could restrain him before he could do anything. Covering his face eliminates the line of sight he would need to target the sand with his mind. This has nothing to do with power or endurance. This is all about speed. Gaara suffocates with no oxygen.

Since his defenses have never shown themselves to react to anything not trying to strike him, you can't claim that they'll be of any use. In fact, being packed in with all that sand will suffocate him faster.


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## RWB (Oct 2, 2009)

Rosuto_and_Meshi said:


> Even if he is, he still survived an *8 gate beating from Lee.* An endurance feat Toph couldn't possibly fathom.



No. Just no.

5 gates. And Gaara's sand armor took all the damage. Too bad Toph can actually stab him with it.


I still say Gaara win through speed, though.


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## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

RWB said:


> I still say Gaara win through speed, though.



Prove it. It'll help you to see the things I've debunked about Gaara's speed, first.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 2, 2009)

> Lee fight proves he can't react to faster than eye,



So Toph is as fast as weightless Lee is she? I'm gonna need proof. Proof that doesn't exist so your utterly baseless argument remains baseless.



> that to KnJ, he needs sand outside his person (not on his back).



If there's sand present, he can create a clone with it. If there's a clone, he can switch with it. There's always sand present and he can make more at will.



> Kimi fight shows him doing seals


Yes, for a jutsu called Quicksand in the Style of a Waterfall. One of the very few of his techs that requires hand seals.



> and the databook puts Kazekage Gaara's speed at Dosu's level.



The databook has never been regarded as accurate here, and regardless that would do more to promote Dozu's speed than downplay Gaara's.



> Toph's SLOW.


Agreed.



> She could restrain him before he could do anything.



Even if that were true(which it isn't), restraining him would do nothing.



> Covering his face eliminates the line of sight he would need to target the sand with his mind.


 There is literally no basis for this claim, but regardless, Gaara uses his Third Eye.



> Toph gets crushed by Sand Coffin.



Indeed.



> It'll help you to see the things I've debunked about Gaara's speed, first.



Case to point out where you've actually done this instead of just downplaying Gaara's abilities?

That's a rhetorical question of course, because you obviously haven't.


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## RWB (Oct 2, 2009)

First off, everyone keeps talking about Toph's reaction speed.

How fast is it? Instant? No. reacting to someone putting their foot on the ground due to vibration does not mean instantenous reactions.


She might be slightly above peak human at best, without more feats.

Lee while weighted was speedblitzing Sasuke who was at that point able to move at superhuman speeds. Gaara was following that Lee without effort.

Gaara has superior reaction speed despite having lame reaction feats for a Naruto character. His sand is also faster than Toph's reaction speed feats.

Gaara desert coffins my second favorite Avatar character and kills her before she can react.


Unless you want to put Zuko and Iroh as well as Aang as lightningtimers.


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## Banhammer (Oct 2, 2009)

Reaction feats might be a tad pointless when you base yourself off of precog.


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## RWB (Oct 2, 2009)

Except it is not really precog, but reactions to vibrations in the earth. Thus if her reaction speed is slow enough, then the attack of her opponent will hit her before she'll actually notice anything.


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## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

How are you more accurate than the databook? Her reaction and bending speed are proven in her debut. More proof of near-instant.



Are those three not Lightningtimers? Iroh caught natural lightning and redirected it.

Correction, Gaara's autoguard was following him. Gaara never even reacted to him because his shield was doing fine.

Is there any reason to doubt that it's less than sonic? She got Shin Fu's position when he thrust his hand down, and started moving before he could pull it up. 

Exactly what do you all have to back up this stuff? Where are your sources? You haven't demonstrated jack. You're not following the data book OR your own profiles, so exactly what are you using that backs up anything you claim?


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 2, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> How are you more accurate than the databook?



The databook has proven unreliable in the past and should never be taken as canon over the manga.




> Her reaction and bending speed are proven in her debut. More proof of near-instant.



Yeah...that's not proof.




> Are those three not Lightningtimers?



No, no they are not. Though I don't know what it has to do with anything.



> Iroh caught natural lightning and redirected it.



A: You act as if the bolt came down, after which point Iroh moved and intercepted it, which is just not true. He got lucky, or perhaps he could draw it to him, but he isn't a lightning-timer.

B: Irrelevant.



> Correction, Gaara's autoguard was following him. Gaara never even reacted to him because his shield was doing fine.



That's quite possibly the most pointless statement ever. 



> Is there any reason to doubt that it's less than sonic? She got Shin Fu's position when he thrust his hand down, and started moving before he could pull it up.



So now Toph is supersonic is she? What's next, you gonna say Toph is faster than light?

Toph vs Wally West. Who would win?



> Exactly what do you all have to back up this stuff?



I extend the same question to you.



> Where are your sources?


See previous.



> You haven't demonstrated jack.









> So exactly what are you using that backs up anything you claim?



Mainly the manga. You know, the primary canon source? The one you keep dismissing to fuel your completely baseless claims to the effect of Toph's victory?


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## rockonyx (Oct 2, 2009)

HAHAHA! You've been claiming things in the manga that were disproven in the anime! Seriously, I've sourced all of Gaara's fights in the anime, and you use still images. For that to be your sole basis shows that nothing you have can be relied on.

For RWB, when she fights The Boulder, he starts yelling. Sound stops as the vibration starts her, and resumes AFTER she moves into a stance. Supersonic.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 2, 2009)

The manga is the primary canon source and trumps the anime.

I'd rather like to see proof that Toph is supersonic. 

Real proof, not you just saying "LOL SHE IZ TEH SOOPERSONIK!!!1!!1!Q!!" over and over.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

I gave you proof. The PRIMARY SOURCE. The cartoon. You should watch it.

Time for more numbers. Taking a scan of the masked guy, I measured his head size, and used the average human head length, 22 cm, as a base. Using the scan I posted, the pillar Toph makes is 70.4 cm high, or 2.3 feet. She made a 2.3 foot pillar in a fraction of a second. I don't have the cartoon, or I'd give you the frame by frame calculation. I can say in complete confidence that it's no more than half a second. It takes a full second for her to raise her foot, put it down, and for the pillar to hit the masked guy. So, at 1 second, she can raise a pillar 140.8 cm feet high in no more than 1 second. Gaara is 166.1 cm tall. The human body is 6 heads tall, and Gaara's head is the only thing exposed. In one second, Gaara is completely immobilized from the neck down, against Toph at her debut.

Provide some math for your side or concede.

EDIT: Unless you can do calculations based on the manga stills (which you can't in any of these situations), the manga is a worthless source for judging time.


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## neodragzero (Oct 3, 2009)

In other words, you're saying that she easily does to Gaara what she did to a guy with nowhere the defenses and general feats that Gaara has? I just keep seeing you making claims along the lines of "stomping fodder" automatically means stomping a character with worlds more feats.

Besides that, the feat doesn't make her attack all that impressive as attack speed goes.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 3, 2009)

> I gave you proof.


No you didn't, you gave me bullshit.




> I don't have the cartoon, or I'd give you the frame by frame calculation. I can say in complete confidence that it's no more than half a second.



I am disinclined to believe your confidence, complete or otherwise, considering you've spent this entire argument confident that Toph would win based on your dismissing Gaara's abilities.



> Taking a scan of the masked guy, I measured his head size, and used the average human head length, 22 cm, as a base. Using the scan I posted, the pillar Toph makes is 70.4 cm high, or 2.3 feet. She made a 2.3 foot pillar in a fraction of a second. It takes a full second for her to raise her foot, put it down, and for the pillar to hit the masked guy. So, at 1 second, she can raise a pillar 140.8 cm feet high in no more than 1 second. Gaara is 166.1 cm tall.



And this proves that Toph is supersonic does it? Forgive me but math is not my forte.




> In one second, Gaara is completely immobilized from the neck down, against Toph at her debut.



Oh, too bad, it was a Sand Clone. Gaara Desert Coffins her. GG Toph.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

Gaara physically reacted to Lee kicking his autoguard with human reaction speed. There's an obvious gap between the sound and Gaara's movement. This is at normal animated speed. This also happened for each other attack on his guard, and was demonstrated in his Deidara fight.

How far would you say Weighted Lee and Gaara were at the beginning of the fight? More than 50 meters? The top athlete in the world can cover 50 meters in the time it took for Lee to reach Gaara.

How would Gaara's autoguard react to the ground rising up in his face? It's not the same as a strike. The best he could hope for is the autoguard to come between him and the earth, which doesn't even leave him wiggle room.

This onomatopoeia guy just doesn't follow posts very well.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 3, 2009)

So what you're saying is, you've got no proof that Toph is supersonic, no proof that Toph can win and are only desperately hanging on to your "argument" by saying that Gaara is weaker than he is. Good to know, good to know.

And while I am shocked that you actually spelled by name right, you left out the capital O. It's Onomatopoeia, not onomatopoeia.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

In Episode 218, she bent 6 Dai Lee to the ceiling of the palace in less than 4 seconds, from however far away this is. That's 4 seconds for the 6th one to hit the ceiling. Two seconds for the first to hit. I'm far too tired to go through calculations right now, but you can clearly see the scale, and they're farther from her than Gaara is, and farther than the benders she stomped on her debut. Obviously, her skill increased greatly.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> So what you're saying is, you've got no proof that Toph is supersonic, no proof that Toph can win and are only desperately hanging on to your "argument" by saying that Gaara is weaker than he is. Good to know, good to know.
> 
> And while I am shocked that you actually spelled by name right, you left out the capital O. It's Onomatopoeia, not onomatopoeia.



You've got no numbers. You literally have nothing.


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## neodragzero (Oct 3, 2009)

Is it really that hard to grasp? You're making a fallacy that she blitz Gaara just because she blitz a bunch of fodder. At least you do better with bringing up the Dai Lee but they're still pretty lame with no real reaction timing feats to speak of. While they again still don't have anywhere near the combat ability as Gaara.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

It's not a fallacy if I've shown that Gaara lacks the reaction speed to counter her. He was able to move his head with normal reaction speed, and he still has to make seals to use his jutsu. 

I've provided two examples of supersonic reaction speed at Toph's base abilities, which holds true regardless of who it's against. Moving fast enough that there's no sound is still supersonic. You could say that the circumstances allowed her concentration that she hasn't had in fights against multiple enemies. Since I also provided an example of her reacting to, and pinning Azula, it provides further support. Since this is a one-on-one fight, with no outside distractions, it provides even better conditions.


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## neodragzero (Oct 3, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> It's not a fallacy if I've shown that Gaara lacks the reaction speed to counter her. He was able to move his head with normal reaction speed, and he still has to make seals to use his jutsu.


Shown how? She hasn't done anything that compares to the speed of Rock Lee and Kimmaro. Your claim that Deidara is slow is empty.


> I've provided two examples of supersonic reaction speed at Toph's base abilities, which holds true regardless of who it's against. Moving fast enough that there's no sound is still supersonic. You could say that the circumstances allowed her concentration that she hasn't had in fights against multiple enemies. Since I also provided an example of her reacting to, and pinning Azula, whom has dodged lightning, it provides further support. Since this is a one-on-one fight, with no outside distractions, it provides even better conditions.


Moving around without making a sound isn't a property of breaking the sound barrier. Heck, breaking the sound barrier realistically includes a sonic boom sound. Supersonic and silence don't go together like that.

Azula has never dodged real lightning. Shooting out "cold fire" doesn't count as real lightning at all.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> Shown how? She hasn't done anything that compares to the speed of Rock Lee and Kimmaro. Your claim that Deidara is slow is empty.



I haven't been making comparisons to Lee and Kimi. I've been making comparisons to Gaara. I've been disproving that Gaara's physically reacted to the things people claimed he did. For some reason, people have been using Gaara's autoguard as a speed feat for him, which is preposterous.



> Moving around without making a sound isn't a property of breaking the sound barrier. Heck, breaking the sound barrier realistically includes a sonic boom sound. Supersonic and silence don't go together like that.



Not moving without making a sound, moving while there is no sound around her. Realistically, none of this chakra and bending nonsense would be possible. Blame fiction.



> Azula has never dodged real lightning. Shooting out "cold fire" doesn't count as real lightning at all.



Looked back at the episode I was thinking of and edited. My mistake.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> Shown how? She hasn't done anything that compares to the speed of Rock Lee and Kimmaro. Your claim that Deidara is slow is empty.



I haven't been making comparisons to Lee and Kimi. I've been making comparisons to Gaara. I've been disproving that Gaara's physically reacted to the things people claimed he did. For some reason, people have been using Gaara's autoguard as a speed feat for him, which is preposterous.

The silly argument against Toph raising the earth to seal him was that he would either Sand Coffin her before she could do it, or he would turn the earth into sand. His reaction speed is too slow to do either one. His real speed can't be faster than his reaction speed, and the only characters that have shown that speed are Itachi and Sasuke.



> Moving around without making a sound isn't a property of breaking the sound barrier. Heck, breaking the sound barrier realistically includes a sonic boom sound. Supersonic and silence don't go together like that.



Not moving without making a sound, moving while there is no sound around her.



> Azula has never dodged real lightning. Shooting out "cold fire" doesn't count as real lightning at all.



Looked back at the episode I was thinking of and edited. My mistake.


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## Kage no Yume (Oct 3, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> Then how is Gaara supposed to make any move with his sand, outside of KnJ, that she won't immediately be able to react to? Even when he comes out of it, she'll know where he is and what he's doing.



Unless he's flying, which is what he'll most likely be doing the instant she tries attacking him with the earth beneath him.

And she sucks when it comes to flying enemies.  Even when they make a loud buzzing sound and there are multiple targets, she still shot in the opposite direction without guidance.



> What stance? She was standing straight up with her arms outstretched. Sliding forward means that she can get out of Sand Coffin, which is assuming that it ever gets the chance to hit.



She used a bending move to cover herself in rocks.  She then moved into what looked like a dashing stance before she started to slide.



> Since fusing things with chakra makes them denser.



Last I checked, chakra has no mass.  Nothing to do with density at all.



> Anime shows him doing seals first, then clapping. It also shows the process of the sand rising being a lot slower. The first time it shows her bending sand, she has to do more. In episode 318, where she makes Ba Sing Se, she just touches the ground.



Anime = worthless.  You're in the OBD now, only the primary source is used unless otherwise specified (which would be the manga for Naruto).

But is it anywhere near the speed and breadth (a football field's worth, *pre-skip*) of Gaara's abilities?



> She just needs faster-than-eye reactions. Gaara doesn't have that, and I've demonstrated that on multiple occasions.



She doesn't have it either.  We can clearly see the movements of her attacks.  If they were faster than the eye can see they wouldn't be visible when animated.

Jump cuts don't count as that's merely a part of the animation process...less frames per second = cheaper, and even though Avatar is pretty high in quality, they still tend to use the least amount possible.  When viewed at normal viewing speed, it doesn't look like a jump cut, which is what they aim for.



> Weighted Lee wasn't even faster-than-eye. Gaara couldn't keep up with Kimi either. That's why he had to trap him.



Haku was faster than the eye can see for normal humans (without his mirrors).  Sasuke was faster than Haku.  Lee pwned Sasuke.  Weightless Lee was even faster.  Kimimaro was faster than weightless Lee.  Gaara managed to keep up with Kimimaro's movements (the sand he chases Kimi with is only a few steps behind him), and has other speed feats against people far above weightless Lee (forcing Sasuke to use Amaterasu instead of shunshin which takes far less chakra; blocking Raikage).



> My mistake. It's 318. 305 is the one with the "villains" going to the beach. The question is not about the size or strength. It's about speed.



No, it's about both.

Toph's shallow pit (lets overestimate and call it a foot deep) that's ten feet in diameter in 3-4 seconds = about *63 sq. ft. of sand*.

Gaara's sand wave that covered the area of a football field (let's underestimate and say it's half that) and buried Kimimaro (lets underestimate and say it's only 3 feet deep)  in about 4-6 seconds = *33,750 sq. ft. of sand* (very, very, very low end estimate).


Furthermore, *she made a sand sculpture*.  She didn't turn it into stone.  Watch the episode again, it has the same consistency as the other sand sculptures they were making.



> So you're saying that he has faster-than-eye reaction because he never showed it, showed that he didn't have it, and because he never had a reason to train it?



He did have a reason.  Assassins have been hunting him since he was six, and he enjoys killing these people.  Most of them were probably chuunin like Yashamaru, maybe even jounin.

And he does have feats, which you seem to keep ignoring.  Heck, here's another one for you:

Chidori Nagashi



> Again, we didn't see when Gaara came in, or how much time he had to send the sand out. If I show a close up of a ball about to hit the ground, and then my hand catching it an inch from the ground, does that mean I have superhuman speed? No. You have no other information about my location or actions previous to that moment.



If the ball was moving near or above supersonic speeds and it was 2-4 inches from the ground before you caught it, then yes, that means you have superhuman speed, even if your hand was only an inch away, let alone the foot or two of clearance Gaara's sand must have had before Raikage's strike landed.

Also, Raikage himself didn't notice the sand until he hit it, and he's arguably one of the fastest people in the Naruto verse.



> She's not throwing anything at him. She's coming from under him. Her basic bending feats show that she can move earth almost instantly. Since she doesn't need a lot to trap Gaara, she doesn't have to make grand gestures.



Neither does he:  Chidori Nagashi



> Yes, he had better fighting ability while drunk. Not sober, so he could actually feel the strain he was causing his body. Even Tsunade said that he should be resting, and wasn't even ready to train (without hurting himself) yet.



That doesn't do much to disprove his abilities, only his stamina and potential.  He was still healthy enough to use the first gate, and you seem to be forgetting just how good Kimimaro is.  He took on over a hundred Kyuubi Naruto clones, and Naruto can move faster than the eye can see in Kyuubi mode.  

Also, don't bring up the shitty anime fight, read the manga.  That's actually around the area where the anime dropped in quality regarding fights.



> Already disproved his speed against DotSF. He saw it coming from where Kimi was sunk. He had plenty of time to fly. KnJ is a speed boosting technique. Lee wasn't moving at faster-than-eye as he lifted Gaara, so Gaara didn't need faster-than-eye reflexes to KnJ. Gaara hasn't shown physical speed outside of that.



Again, Lee couldn't outrun it, meaning that it was sprouting pretty damned fast.

Also, only Kakashi seemed to notice Gaara's kawarimi, which means it must have been faster than most of the contestants could see, and they're already above the Avatar verse in speed.



> Toph's ability to see and move floating earth has already been proven.



Don't you mean disproved?  If not, then what proof that hasn't already been disproved are you referring to?



> Jiroubou is the only one (off-hand) to use earth so far. Gaara never met him. She makes no seals, and has no equipment. She's not moving anything at him from her. She's literally moving the earth at point blank to catch him. Even the Dai Li haven't been able to counter that, and she lifted them to the ceiling!



All of her bending has moved through the earth to the opponent.  The result may be point blank, but not the process.

Also, earth is a major element in the Naruto verse.  Gaara is a kage.  I think he'd be wary of justu that uses a major element.



> There was at LEAST the sand from his autoguard, which was attempting to catch up with him and Lee. In fact, that sand magically disappeared only after Lee wrapped up Gaara. It seems rather apparent that the sand was no longer there because Gaara KnJ'ed to it. This confirms that he needs to KnJ to sand present outside of physical contact.



Or just outside of the attack's range.  If moving to his back puts him out of harms way, he can just move there instead of moving several yards away.  Heck, it would be easier and faster since he'd be moving less.  Also, the sand had simply fallen behind due to the speed difference.



> Here's the play-by-play.
> 
> Toph gets an instant reading on Gaara, and assumes he's an earth bender, and probably a sand bender because of the gourd (210 & 211 shows knowledge of sand benders).



She'll likely be confused due to how densely the sand is packed though.  And she'd wonder how he's keeping it in place without bending.



> Toph steps on the ground.
> 
> Gaara, expecting a seal, uncorks his gourd. Toph bends the earth underneath him a split-second after she steps, shooting up in front of him (feat shown throughout the series).



And the auto-guard blocks the attack (being stronger than steel), or Gaara uses his superior speed and takes flight.



> This surprises Gaara, keeping him from doing another action for the next second (ref: vs Lee). In this time, Toph steps again, making the earth rise behind him.



Toph is already screwed as Gaara has sent a powerful sand wave at her from multiple directions.



> Gaara reacts.



Toph is forced to defend and Gaara changes the field to his advantage.



> Toph claps hands and crushes him between the two. END MATCH.



Toph gets crushed by a tidal wave of sand.



> If autoguard keeps him from being crushed, Toph simply adds layers, as Gaara has no room to make the seals needed to turn the earth into sand (ref: vs. Kimi fight). Gaara is suffocated.



Gaara never needed seals to turn earth into sand (see the above pic where he captures Kimi), and even if he did he'd have enough room.  His auto-guard can block steel penetrating attacks, when he actually focuses on his guard it gets even stronger.

He could also just turn the rocks Toph tries to crush him with into sand, which Toph isn't very good with.



> IF Gaara KnJs (which assumes a lot for Gaara's case), she can literally grab him with earth the moment he reappears wherever he is. She repeats the process.



She can grab flying people with earth?  Let alone flying people who have defenses far more powerful than any of her offenses?



> This may all be pointless then, if faster-than-eye in Avatar isn't the same as faster-than-eye in Naruto.



Avatar verse = peak human and a little above.  Haku would be faster than the eye can see for them.  

Raikage > PTJ Sasuke >/= Kazekage Gaara > Kimimaro = pre-skip Gaara = Weightless Lee > Chuunin exam Gaara > Weighted Lee > pre-training Sasuke > Haku > Toph.



rockonyx said:


> How are you more accurate than the databook? Her reaction and bending speed are proven in her debut. More proof of near-instant.



Impressive, but still not faster than the eye can see.  Peak humans can draw, aim and shoot in about the same amount of time.  Toph is a bit over peak human.  Haku was well above peak human.



> Are those three not Lightningtimers? Iroh caught natural lightning and redirected it.



He started moving before the lightning began to strike.  Thus it's just a precog for lightning, and nothing to do with reaction speed.



> Is there any reason to doubt that it's less than sonic? She got Shin Fu's position when he thrust his hand down, and started moving before he could pull it up.



The show itself shows that it's not anywhere near sonic.  Sonic would be the sound waves that are portrayed moving outward from the touch.  Note how this takes place in an instant and how Toph is basically frozen in time during it.

Also, as mentioned, she has semi-precog due to her vibration sensing and earthbending expertise (remember that bending has specific moves.  She probably knew what move he was going to use by his position and her knowledge).



> Exactly what do you all have to back up this stuff? Where are your sources? You haven't demonstrated jack. You're not following the data book OR your own profiles, so exactly what are you using that backs up anything you claim?



The manga.  Databook and profile are pretty arbitrary in the OBD.  Only the canon (in this case the manga) is considered true evidence.



rockonyx said:


> I gave you proof. The PRIMARY SOURCE. The cartoon. You should watch it.
> 
> Time for more numbers. Taking a scan of the masked guy, I measured his head size, and used the average human head length, 22 cm, as a base. Using the scan I posted, the pillar Toph makes is 70.4 cm high, or 2.3 feet. She made a 2.3 foot pillar in a fraction of a second. I don't have the cartoon, or I'd give you the frame by frame calculation. I can say in complete confidence that it's no more than half a second. It takes a full second for her to raise her foot, put it down, and for the pillar to hit the masked guy. So, at 1 second, she can raise a pillar 140.8 cm feet high in no more than 1 second. Gaara is 166.1 cm tall. The human body is 6 heads tall, and Gaara's head is the only thing exposed. In one second, Gaara is completely immobilized from the neck down, against Toph at her debut.



Auto-guard protects him.  He can then turn the stone into sand at his leisure, or playfully toy with Toph from that position.

Or she never catches him due to kawarimi or the speed difference + flight.



> Provide some math for your side or concede.
> 
> EDIT: Unless you can do calculations based on the manga stills (which you can't in any of these situations), the manga is a worthless source for judging time.



Calcs have put Killer Bee at supersonic speeds.  Raikage is likely faster (given how Sasuke matched up to him), and as I mentioned, Gaara intercepted his attack, as well as forced Sasuke to use a chakra consuming ability rather than dodge with his shunshin.

Alternatively, Haku has better speed feats than Toph, and the chain has been outlined for you.



> Not moving without making a sound, moving while there is no sound around her.



...

So I suppose when things go silent in a movie and people move around without making sounds, they're moving at supersonic speeds?

They added the silence to accentuate her ability to "see" vibrations.  It's not that she was moving so fast that there was no sound (really now, how the heck did you come up with that ?).


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## neodragzero (Oct 3, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> I haven't been making comparisons to Lee and Kimi. I've been making comparisons to Gaara. I've been disproving that Gaara's physically reacted to the things people claimed he did. For some reason, people have been using Gaara's autoguard as a speed feat for him, which is preposterous.


And again, the sand clone and others aren't auto guard. She has no knowledge whatsoever of replacement jutsu.


> Not moving without making a sound, moving while there is no sound around her. Realistically, none of this chakra and bending nonsense would be possible. Blame fiction.


No, it's just you making an empty claim. There's no suggestion whatsoever anywhere that supersonic equates to not making sounds. It doesn't work that way in both reality and fiction.


> The silly argument against Toph raising the earth to seal him was that he would either Sand Coffin her before she could do it, or he would turn the earth into sand. His reaction speed is too slow to do either one. His real speed can't be faster than his reaction speed, and the only characters that have shown that speed are Itachi and Sasuke.


Nope, Kimmimaro and Gate Lee still have more speed than Toph. Kimmimaro got hit by Gaara's sand even after making the claim he wouldn't get caught by it again. Gaara is fast enough to bury someone of Kimmimaro's speed with ease. All the more when you keep acting like he can't simply turn into sand a simple small pillar when he creates a football field of sand on a whim.


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## The World (Oct 3, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> I haven't been making comparisons to Lee and Kimi. I've been making comparisons to Gaara. I've been disproving that Gaara's physically reacted to the things people claimed he did. For some reason, people have been using Gaara's autoguard as a speed feat for him, which is preposterous.



about giving the power of a bijuu to Sasuke.
about giving the power of a bijuu to Sasuke.

Oh Really? Looks like he reacted to an explosion to me. Pretty fast reflexes.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

This is ridiculous. You use still images to determine speed, when it is grossly unsuited to do so, and when an equally canon, ANIMATED source is available. You do this solely so you can make up how fast someone is going, despite evidence to the contrary.

Notice that I made a request for numbers, and you gave NONE. You simply made an arbitrary chain, which isn't even correct. If Gaara was truly equal to Kimi's speed, he wouldn't have had to distract him with the sand, and then sneak attack him from below. Using him drowning in a tidal wave of sand doesn't equate him to that speed at all. It's simply volume.

Gaara blocking Kimi's sand is a HUGE speed discrepancy, as his autoguard didn't even have time to save him from Kimi's rush. Gaara's never been faster than his autoguard, and if you try arguing that he controls it at this point, why didn't he use it when he had plenty of time to respond to Kimi coming at him? Even Lee mentions that Kimi is slower than he was before, which is demonstrated by an injured, sober(ish at least) Lee having time to yell before kicking him.

Using a KnJ that Kakashi, and at least Neji saw (he displayed shock at neither Gaara's shell, nor at Kakashi's explanation), proves nothing. There were more than the eleven people they showed. You have nothing to prove that Shino's team didn't notice it, and Gai simply had his eyes closed. So the total number of people to definitely NOT follow the KnJ, were Naruto, Kankurou, Temari, Shikamaru, Chouji, Ino, the official (don't know his name) and Baki. Maybe Asuma didn't see it. He definitely shows that his movements are faster than the eyes of low-ranked genin, and characters of unknown reaction speed.

However long it took for Lee to wince in pain, it had to be no less than Gaara's shown reaction time. If you used the anime, which can actually GIVE you a timeframe, you would see that there's more than enough time, especially since Lee was moving substantially slower than when he was knocking Gaara around.

The best part is you all downplaying the entire Avatarverse, which has Toph body splashing rocks, earth fodder (as you all put it) eating rocks and moving an arena platform by jumping, Iroh stopping lightning as it starts (Ep. 209), and Ty Lee doing the same movement feats as a genin, without need for chakra augmentation. There aren't superhumans in Avatar, oh no.

Numbers please, we shall settle this like men. With math.


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## The World (Oct 3, 2009)

Anime is non-canon. The anime team does whatever it feels like it, probably in attempt to make it look more "cool."

And an explosion is the time-frame. It has been shown since Gaara was 8 that his sand shield was able to block explosions.

Also where are the numbers from you? I don't see any calcs for Avatarverse.

Killerbee in base form is calced around Mach 2, in 3 tails he probably is close to hypersonic. Gaara is a kage high-tier he should be around that level.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> about giving the power of a bijuu to Sasuke.
> Link removed
> 
> Oh Really? Looks like he reacted to an explosion to me. Pretty fast reflexes.



He didn't react to an explosion. He reacted to a bird that had gone from Deidara to him, without his notice. His autoguard prevented him from damage before Deidara detonated the bomb.

My numbers are on the last page, when I asked for them.


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## The World (Oct 3, 2009)

He reacted to the explosion, unless Deidara decided to have it go off many seconds after flying it right in front of him. HURR HURR, that's nice logic there rockonyx. Now you're just reaching, and it's sad.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

The image you have doesn't show the bird detonating and Gaara reacting to it. It shows the bird there, and Gaara reacting to that. That's irrefutable. If there were some sort of partial explosion, then yes, Gaara would be reacting to the explosion. He didn't notice it just as it entered his field of vision (self evident from panel), and by the time he noticed it, his autoguard was already headed that way.

Regardless, the sand moves on its own to defend him. As it has been shown throughout the series, it only moves when it absolutely has to.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

Kage no Yume said:


> Avatar verse = peak human and a little above.  Haku would be faster than the eye can see for them.



Just noticed this. I concede. It makes more sense to show superhuman feats in Avatarverse than to try and argue when the base stats are stacked against me.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 3, 2009)

So, then. Are we all agreed that Gaara wins and that there was never any need to necro this eight month old thread?


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## The World (Oct 3, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> The image you have doesn't show the bird detonating and Gaara reacting to it. It shows the bird there, and Gaara reacting to that. That's irrefutable. If there were some sort of partial explosion, then yes, Gaara would be reacting to the explosion. He didn't notice it just as it entered his field of vision (self evident from panel), and by the time he noticed it, his autoguard was already headed that way.
> 
> Regardless, the sand moves on its own to defend him. As it has been shown throughout the series, it only moves when it absolutely has to.



Stop arguing semantics. You know he reacted to the explosion. Deidara doesn't make delayed explosions. It went off instantly.

And his sandguard has already been shown to block explosions since he was 8 against Yashamaru.

It only makes sense as Kazekage a top tier, that he has alot better reaction times. Typical shounen law, duh.


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## rockonyx (Oct 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> So, then. Are we all agreed that Gaara wins and that there was never any need to necro this eight month old thread?



Yep. At least until I show superhuman feats for Avatarverse in another thread. That shouldn't be a problem, since they're everywhere. Then again, I'm getting kind of bored with this. 

Might I suggest that if you're going to make profiles for characters, that they actually have some bearing on matches? It would also help if there was an actual thread for Narutoverse calculations. The "Narutoverse speed" thread has more bickering and off-topic posts than numbers. And those numbers weren't even agreed upon.


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## Kage no Yume (Oct 4, 2009)

rockonyx said:


> Yep. At least until I show superhuman feats for Avatarverse in another thread. That shouldn't be a problem, since they're everywhere. Then again, I'm getting kind of bored with this.



We were kinda bored with it back when the thread died.



> Might I suggest that if you're going to make profiles for characters, that they actually have some bearing on matches? It would also help if there was an actual thread for Narutoverse calculations. The "Narutoverse speed" thread has more bickering and off-topic posts than numbers. And those numbers weren't even agreed upon.



It's hard to do calcs with manga.  Especially when there's very little to go off of to determine the time and distance.

And profiles only give a general idea of what level a character is on (so you don't do something stupid like put Luffy against Blackbolt).  When it comes to the match itself, everything is measured by feats and canon evidence.


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## Banhammer (Oct 4, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> So, then. Are we all agreed that Gaara wins and that there was never any need to necro this eight month old thread?



No.

Toph still crushes his skull into a pulp with his own sand.

I understand the concept lore and mechanics of both Earthbending and Gaara's Sand, ever since each ones respective inception, and I'm perfectly familiar with Toph's and Gaara's correct assumptionable speed, and I'm also the supreme authority of the OBD when it cames to geology, not that it plays a very relevant part in this discussion, and I can still say and know to be correct that Gaara is just matched with someone that couldn't be more tailor made to kill him if her power were to be "Turns everyone named Gaara around her into blood pudding".


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## The World (Oct 4, 2009)

Does anyone take you seriously anymore?


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## neodragzero (Oct 4, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> No.
> 
> Toph still crushes his skull into a pulp with his own sand.
> 
> I understand the concept lore and mechanics of both Earthbending and Gaara's Sand, ever since each ones respective inception, and I'm perfectly familiar with Toph's and Gaara's correct assumptionable speed, and *I'm also the supreme authority of the OBD when it cames to geology, not that it plays a very relevant part in this discussion,* and I can still say and know to be correct that Gaara is just matched with someone that couldn't be more tailor made to kill him if her power were to be "Turns everyone named Gaara around her into blood pudding".


...What?


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## Banhammer (Oct 4, 2009)

I'm a second year student of mining and geo-enviromental engineering. Being on my fifth and sixth class on the subject and having performed above average on all of them, I challenge you to find anyone here above me in this field.

I'm not as active for I have to study and work to pay for it.


This has been comon knowledge for quite some time now.


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## Banhammer (Oct 4, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Does anyone take you seriously anymore?



coming from you, I guess it says more about where this place has gone than it does about me.


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## The World (Oct 4, 2009)

I'm glad you think i'm popular. Where ever did that hammer go?


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## neodragzero (Oct 4, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> I'm a second year student of mining and geo-enviromental engineering. Being on my fifth and sixth class on the subject and having performed above average on all of them, I challenge you to find anyone here above me in this field.
> 
> I'm not as active for I have to study and work to pay for it.
> 
> ...



Nah, I just find it weird how you threw that in there as you keep suggesting that Toph is tailor made to defeat someone with more destructive feats and techniques she has no way of knowing about.


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## Banhammer (Oct 4, 2009)

Gaara's defense is pre-emptive
Toph's strikes are pre-emptive and rely on the use of the supplies Gaara needs.
Gaara's preception and obstacles caused often by his owns powers have been explored against him.
Toph's perception will only improove

Gaara dosen't manipulate the earth, but rather throws it around using extensions of himself(chakra)
Toph goes right into it, manipulating it down to the bonds.
Gaara can controll vasts amount of grain in this post shukaku, but his strength with individual sediments is actually very weak. He can't throw around gravile or boulders. Toph once held up The Library, not against it's weight, but against the strength of the Owl, bends steel using nothing but trace amounts of sediment and compacts rock to withstand blasts that have casually destroyed steel objects aswell.
It's range Vs power. Powerwise Think of it like a canon Vs a hundred paperball and straw spitters, only the canoneer can also controll a really good deal of paperballs too.
The same or more than the amount that post shukaku Gaara has been shown to.

A smarter me would make you focus on the fact that we should discuss this on Post Shukaku Gaara, but even if you do consider Kazekage Gaara, who even if he did took the battle up, would be meaningless, and even if he was in a very auspicious battleground, he sure has some almost Avatarian level of range, but still, his individual strenght on each grain would be so insuficient, and toph could just cause the sand that is always wraped around his fave to crush his skull in itty bitty bits.
I mean, she bents steal with trace amounts and zero effort, while Gaara can't even pick them up if they're too big. How many couple of grains that are allready there, and to wich he puts no effort or atention or has any senses of, or proper reaction (even if despite all that, it mattered) do you think she needs to put her back into to end this fight in a lulzy way.

Before reminding yourself this is Gaara with no shukaku?


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## neodragzero (Oct 4, 2009)

Karma Monster said:


> Kazekage Gaara.
> 
> ...I'll give him the Shukaku. I can't make it too easy for Toph.



What fact again? Did something about the OP scenario change after this?

Also, I still see an utter lack of any feat show from Toph that compares to the conversion rate for Gaara before the time skip even happened. It's all the more worse with the level of force Gaara was able to block to keep Sand Village in one piece. There's no proof whatsoever of her taking over sand that he already controls to such a massive scale. And what's this about Gaara not being able to pick up steel depending on mass?


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## Banhammer (Oct 4, 2009)

Gaara can't. He can pick up enough grains that they will eventually lift a steel bar, but it will take him a poud as to where Toph would take her what's allready in it. But individualy speaking his power is rather weak. It's only because he can repeat it several trillion times.
Also, conversion feat is invalid. Gaara will not have the chance to find himself in the position of doing in it time, also, requires an exponential base number of grains for  him to shred minerals from, and it has never been an attack Gaara normally resorts to, but if it were, while he's using the mineral break, leaves himself vunerable to rock bullet of his own armor.

Think of Gaara's power like Raasenshuuriken. A fuckillion little air blades. Individually speaking their less of an inconvinence that a tenth of a paper cut. Together, shishikaboom.
The difrence is, in here, he's fighting someone that can't controll as many air currents, but can controll all the ones you start with and this one that sends naruto flying off to new jersey.
Only this one is allready in his face at the begining of the battle and naruto dosen't know it.
And can turn all the existing air at the begining off the fight into farts (assuming the ground is made of farts) to which Naruto can't controll, and which  without he can't make more air, but she can.

I think this analogy got a little lost now.


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## Kage no Yume (Oct 4, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Gaara's defense is pre-emptive
> Toph's strikes are pre-emptive and rely on the use of the supplies Gaara needs.
> Gaara's preception and obstacles caused often by his owns powers have been explored against him.
> Toph's perception will only improove



But there are several other factors:

1.  Toph's strikes are pre-emptive based on the opponent's movements and the fighting styles she's used to.  Against an earthbending opponent she's like a damned jedi since she can read their movements and know, based on her knowledge of earthbending, what move they're going to do.

This will not work against Gaara, someone who doesn't use any physical attacks, and whose movements don't give away his attacks or defenses.


2.  As you mentioned, his sand automatically protects him.  So if Toph wants to do any skull crushing, she'll have to overpower both the auto-defense, and Gaara's own massive power as he reacts to her attack.

3.  Toph's perception will definitely not improve once Gaara takes flight.



> Gaara dosen't manipulate the earth, but rather throws it around using extensions of himself(chakra)
> Toph goes right into it, manipulating it down to the bonds.



Well, jutsu and bending are two completely different things.  But some jutsu (like Gaara's sand jutsu, rassenshuriken, kirin, amaterasu, spit-out-a-lake jutsu, mokuton (as compared to those swamp benders), etc.) are above what most benders can do even if they're more limited in scope.



> Gaara can controll vasts amount of grain in this post shukaku, but his strength with individual sediments is actually very weak.



His regular sand shield can block attacks that can pierce 5mm of steel.  His ultimate guard pre-skip was stronger than steel.

He blocked a village destroying attack with sand he pulled from the desert.

He could crush a human being effortlessly at the age of six.


Even if his power is displayed with insanely large amounts of sand as opposed to small amounts of sand that are insanely strong, he still has considerable power with that insanely large amount of sand.



> He can't throw around gravile or boulders.



Irrelevant.



His jutsu is all about sand, not about control over earth in general.  He can make sand, he can move sand, he can condense sand, etc.

Might as well complain that Kisame's shark bullet jutsu doesn't use ice.



> Toph once held up The Library, not against it's weight, but against the strength of the Owl,



If the library were made of sand, Gaara could have probably lifted it out of the desert.

Heck, he could easily uncover the whole thing and could probably form a sand platform under it in order to lift it.



> bends steel using nothing but trace amounts of sediment



Not sure how well she does it...I should really finish watching that series someday.



> and compacts rock to withstand blasts that have casually destroyed steel objects aswell.



Episode?



> It's range Vs power. Powerwise Think of it like a canon Vs a hundred paperball and straw spitters,



I'd say it's more like a canon vs a tidal wave.



> only the canoneer can also controll a really good deal of paperballs too.
> 
> The same or more than the amount that post shukaku Gaara has been shown to.



Did you not see the 63 sq. ft.  vs. 33,000 sq. ft. comparison?  And that was from pre-skip Gaara.



> A smarter me would make you focus on the fact that we should discuss this on Post Shukaku Gaara, but even if you do consider Kazekage Gaara,



As mentioned, the TC chose Kazekage Gaara.  Also, we really don't have enough feats from current Gaara to see if his power really decreased or not.

Shukaku wasn't fused with him the same way Kyuubi was fused with Naruto.  It may not have had as big an impact on his chakra level, especially considering how he turned away from Shukaku's power after the chuunin exams and still grew exponentially.



> who even if he did took the battle up, would be meaningless,



If by "up" you mean "up in the air", then it wouldn't be meaningless.  Toph is pretty much blind against airborne enemies unless they start shouting or something.

Gaara could probably finish her off with kunai or shuriken if he goes airborne.

[/quote]and even if he was in a very auspicious battleground, he sure has some almost Avatarian level of range, but still, his individual strenght on each grain would be so insuficient,[/quote]

He could easily crush humans when he was 6.  Compressed his sand even further during the chuunin exams.  Made an even stronger compression against Kimi.  And blocked a village destroying attack with a paltry amount compared to the targeted area of effect.

I'd say his strength is more than enough.



> and toph could just cause the sand that is always wraped around his fave to crush his skull in itty bitty bits.
> 
> I mean, she bents steal with trace amounts and zero effort, while Gaara can't even pick them up if they're too big. How many couple of grains that are allready there, and to wich he puts no effort or atention or has any senses of, or proper reaction (even if despite all that, it mattered) do you think she needs to put her back into to end this fight in a lulzy way.



Already rebutted .  I should add though, that Toph has never demonstrated such abilities using sand as the medium.  So mentioning it further is rather pointless.

Earth bending is not fully compatible with sand bending.  She herself admits to this, and I don't recall her getting any sand bending lessons, nor performing any useful feats with sand.  She hasn't even converted sand to rock outside of that small 4 ft. wide platform, so that's out of the question.


As for conversion, it takes Gaara "no effort".  Although you're right about the time thing.  I think he'll have killed Toph long before he has the need or time to create more sand.  If he does feel like it though, he could turn the entire area into a bunch of sand dunes, completely screwing Toph over.


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## Herekic (Oct 4, 2009)

so, exactly what stops gaara from killing toph before she can even move?


gaara's sand is one thing most people don't give it credit for:


Really fucking fast.

think about his fights with lee, sasuke and kimmimaro. unless they where going absolute max speed, his sand was right on their ass. kimmimaro especially, he was just barely avoiding it(and was caught in short order)


it's like this:

Toph is blind. using earthbending, she can sense vibrations and the like through the ground to tell whats happening.


her porblem here is, gaara generally stays nearly stone still when he fights. he can attack without moving a muscle. 


For example:


Link


he launches a high-speed barrage without physically lifting a finger. how will toph react to it?


even if she could see it, keep in mind this is a superhuman verse gaara lives in. if his normal sand can keep pace with guys like kimmimaro, what do you think an especially fast version of his attacks is like?


toph is very unlikely to even be able to react in time.


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## Banhammer (Oct 5, 2009)

God, my spelling sucks.

Anywhom, Pre-Skip gaara has many bullshits, like the ability to remove grain from the center of the earth where there isn't any, or making a silicial sand out somewhere where there is no silicates , and yet, arrising no underwater veins, even though he was in the middle of a forest, or claiming that increasing calcium's density would increase it's resistance, when it should make it crumble into dust. Kishimoto has always been stating and doing things like this. Really fast teleport anyone?
Also, 5mm of steel isn't that much. Zuku bursted steel crap to smithereens, combustion man assploded buildings and cliffs with a thought, and roku vaporized steel with nothing resembling to effort , and toph was there, keeping up with these guys.
Also, by end of season 3 Toph has long perfected Sandbending.
The airborn thing, moot point by the way, Gaara dosen't take it up unless his enemy forces him to, isn't relevant for Toph has oprooven to be able to handle airborne particles.
Aang caused confusion, but Aang dosen't really use sand or boulders to travel, now does he?

Again, you have to understand, Gaara will be able to control (not that he will choose to do so since this is a huuuuuuge last resort attack he almost never resorts to) 65466996848968463849348888839848349348897786191357984494687986 grains, but toph will make 7386951968416 her bitches and shove them through Gaara's skull. The ones allready there will do it nicely.


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## Kage no Yume (Oct 5, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> God, my spelling sucks.
> 
> Anywhom, Pre-Skip gaara has many bullshits, like the ability to remove grain from the center of the earth where there isn't any, or making a silicial sand out somewhere where there is no silicates , and yet, arrising no underwater veins, even though he was in the middle of a forest, or claiming that increasing calcium's density would increase it's resistance, when it should make it crumble into dust. Kishimoto has always been stating and doing things like this. Really fast teleport anyone?



It's manga .  What were you expecting?



> Also, 5mm of steel isn't that much. Zuku bursted steel crap to smithereens, combustion man assploded buildings and cliffs with a thought, and roku vaporized steel with nothing resembling to effort , and toph was there, keeping up with these guys.



Episodes numbers?  And why are you comparing Toph to the likes of Roku?  Not to mention firebending against earthbending?

And that was chuunin exam Gaara's auto-shield.  With no effort from him behind it.



> Also, by end of season 3 Toph has long perfected Sandbending.



Again, where's the proof?  Give me an episode number or at least an overview of what happened during the episode so I can find it and confirm your statement.



> The airborn thing, moot point by the way, Gaara dosen't take it up unless his enemy forces him to, isn't relevant for Toph has oprooven to be able to handle airborne particles.



Enemy used earth to attack.  Me thinks flying will be the first thing Gaara does when Toph tries to raise a pillar into his face.

And clearing some dust out of the air doesn't explain how she's going to track Gaara, nor how she's going to reach or defend against him.



> Aang caused confusion, but Aang dosen't really use sand or boulders to travel, now does he?



Sorry, not sure what you're referring to here.



> Again, you have to understand, Gaara will be able to control (not that he will choose to do so since this is a huuuuuuge last resort attack he almost never resorts to) 65466996848968463849348888839848349348897786191357984494687986 grains, but toph will make 7386951968416 her bitches and shove them through Gaara's skull.



She hasn't demonstrated enough power to overcome the mass, speed, or power of Gaara's abilities.  When has she ever hit with enough force or speed to break through Gaara's defenses?  Regular sand blocked a village destroying attack.  His gourd sand is much stronger and faster due to chakra suffusion.


Also, how is it a last resort attack?  It's the second thing he tries against Kimi:

1.  Catch Kimi and use desert funeral.

2.  Bury Kimi with a tidal wave of sand and use desert requiem (note that this points to desert requiem having even more crushing power than desert funeral, since he expected it to break through Kimi's bone armor).

He also summons a mass of sand off the bat against Deidara.



> The ones allready there will do it nicely.



You just up and ignored my entire post didn't you?

1.  Gaara's sand automatically protects him.  She'd need to over power his auto-guard.

2.  Gaara has faster reflexes and even better control over his gourd sand.  She'd have to overpower him in addition to his auto-guard.

3.  When has she ever demonstrated the ability to manipulate earth from a range that's not connected to the ground in some way?

4.  Again, proof of sand bending that shows she can do any of the stuff you say she can?


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## Banhammer (Oct 5, 2009)

> You just up and ignored my entire post didn't you?


I've been scyting shirtless and working all day. I don't care any more.


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## rockonyx (Oct 5, 2009)

This is the real reason I conceded. Trying to debate with people who simply don't read posts (and pick-and-choose what they want to be canon source) isn't worth it. I chose to start working on the verse as a whole, and thus move from there.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 5, 2009)

It seems we have an impassable impasse here, so I have ammended  Gaara and Toph's profiles:



> Disputed OBD Matches:
> 
> [Insert technical mumbojumbo here] Popular vote goes to the G-man, but it is heavily disputed by prominent OBDer Banhammer as well as by some tard that no one cares about whose name escapes me.










> This is the real reason I conceded. Trying to debate with people who simply don't read posts (and pick-and-choose what they want to be canon source) isn't worth it.



Yeah, that's why. We _totally_ believe you nudge nudge wink wink,


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## Banhammer (Oct 5, 2009)

QQ. I learned that from World of Warcraft, and I like it.


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## Banhammer (Oct 5, 2009)

she could just earthbend her bracelet into a spike and chuck it at him. That would end the fight real quick, earth shield be damned.


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## The World (Oct 5, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> QQ. I learned that from World of Warcraft, and I like it.


So that's where you've been spending all your time.


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## Banhammer (Oct 5, 2009)

Not really. Work and College are a troubling mistress. I'm here today because it's a portuguese holliday.

But I did have a try out account for a week.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 5, 2009)

World of Warcraft is the devil!


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## The World (Oct 5, 2009)

It's too addicting, it's best to leave it be and never play.

WoW to nerds is like crack to crackheads.


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## neodragzero (Oct 5, 2009)

Wait until Starcraft 2 comes out into South Korea...


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## The World (Oct 5, 2009)

Or Diablo III.


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## neodragzero (Oct 5, 2009)

...Christ. It's like two epidemics on top of each other there.


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