# Itachi vs. Tsunade



## Soul (Dec 11, 2009)

*Location*: The Great Naruto Bridge
*Knowledge*: Full.
*Distance*: 40 m.
*Restrictions*: Itachi's Amaterasu and Susano'o.
*State of Mind*: Both are bloodlusted.


----------



## Indestructible (Dec 11, 2009)

Itachi captures Tsunade in a genjutsu, which she breaks but it's too late and she dies shortly after. If she somehow manages to counter that technique and attack Itachi it'll be an exploding bunshin and she'd have already wasted half her chakra on her creation rebirth, Itachi's speed will wear her down extremely fast + Itachi's allowed Amaterasu.
Tsunade might also very likely just get blitzed and lose in 10 seconds.


----------



## Maerala (Dec 11, 2009)

Tsukuyomi's not that bad against her. You probably should've restricted something else since she can heal from it, like she did to Kakashi and Sasuke. It would give her somewhat of an advantage if he wastes so much chakra on it if she can heal afterwards. Doubt he'd use it anyway. With full knowledge, he'd know she can recover.

Itachi takes this either way, especially since he's bloodlusted. That's a pretty dangerous Itachi for anyone.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Dec 11, 2009)

If it's on the Great Naruto Bridge and it's misty (it is in Kirigakure), Tsunade stands a much better chance because as Zabuza proved- the sharingan is next to useless.

Unfortunately, Itachi's speed and clones will likely still win this for him. However, with full knowledge I see no reason why this won't turn into a war of attrition- which Tsunade will undisputably win. 

There are scenarios in which Tsunade could win handily. She could summon Katsuyu and have her break into her smaller bushnin where they can act as radios to allow a larger portion of the misty bridge to seen. She can easily one-shot Itachi if she manages to either sneak up on him or create an opening (both of which are unlikely).

In the end, Itachi's likely to win because it's on a bridge (he can use suitons) and he's quick and crafty enough to avoid an equally blind Tsunade. However, I believe that with Katsuyu bushnin acting as spys and Souzou Seisai allowing temporary immortality that it will be a long and grueling battle.


----------



## Agony (Dec 11, 2009)

Itachi wins.he ends it with sharingan genjutsu with a kunai or exploding bunshin.tsunade will definitely have a hard time dispelling the genjutsu.itachi wins.restrict ms then We'll have a match.


----------



## Maerala (Dec 11, 2009)

Agony said:


> Itachi wins.he ends it with sharingan genjutsu with a kunai or exploding bunshin.tsunade will definitely have a hard time dispelling the genjutsu.*itachi wins.restrict ms then We'll have a match*.



I agree with the bolded bit. You should probably restrict Mangekyou Sharingan altogether so this match can be discussed more at length.


----------



## Soul (Dec 11, 2009)

Watermelon Lover said:


> In the end, Itachi's likely to win because it's on a bridge (he can use suitons) and he's quick and crafty enough to avoid an equally blind Tsunade. However, I believe that with Katsuyu bushnin acting as spys and Souzou Seisai allowing temporary immortality that it will be a long and grueling battle.



Itachi's only Suiton shouldn't be able to reach, since the bridge is very high.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Dec 11, 2009)

I happily stand corrected 



I appreciate the way you set up this thread- there was obviously a great deal of thought behind the restrictions. It looks deceptively one-sided in favor of Itachi, however I think you're right in assuming it's a farily equal fight. 

This is especially true when you consider AIDs and the blindness and general deterioration that Itachi will be experiencing. That will certainly compound his inherent stamina issues- an area that Tsunade excels at. I expect that as a medic she might even be able to use this knowledge to her advantage. Chakra no Mesu or Rashinshou, really anything could be lethal.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't see how Tsunade can overcome Sharigan Genjutsu. She will likely end up like Oro, but she can't regenerate her hand at least not completely


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Dec 11, 2009)

Not to meddle but Souzou Seisai could regenerate entire organs and limbs, that's why it's such an impressive jutsu as opposed to simple healing. Also, I think the setting was meant to almost 'ban' sharingan genjutsu. In mist as thick as the Kirigakure no jutsu, the sharingan is proven to be ineffective.


----------



## King Of Gamesxx (Dec 11, 2009)

If worse comes to worse then Susano'o should take care of Tsunade for good.


----------



## SharinganSkill (Dec 11, 2009)

I would like to see a hokage battle - Tsunade x Kakashi. This is kinda one sided cause of genjutsu and speed. Tsunade vs Kakashi needed here.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Dec 11, 2009)

Itachi is just too strong for her, he has better speed and his Sharingan can capture her in genjutsu in any minute.


----------



## Creator (Dec 11, 2009)

I really dislike threads like these, as i alway get negged and it alway tends to be spite threads against Tsunade and threads which let Itachi fans wank over his genjutsu. 


I say Tsunade. Katsuyu isnt restricted, so Itachi has little means to kill Tsunade, unless he uses his Black Fire in which case Katsuyu can split up, but it costs Itachi a hell of a lot and the 30 seconds with Susano'o is a laughing matter. Plus with Full knowledge Tsunade will avoid it.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 11, 2009)

Id think the last person to be caught in a genjutsu in this manga would be tsunade, however its wayyy too close to call.


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 11, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Tsukuyomi's not that bad against her. You probably should've restricted something else since she can heal from it, like she did to Kakashi and Sasuke. It would give her somewhat of an advantage if he wastes so much chakra on it if she can heal afterwards. Doubt he'd use it anyway. With full knowledge, he'd know she can recover.
> 
> Itachi takes this either way, especially since he's bloodlusted. That's a pretty dangerous Itachi for anyone.



I completely disagree with the ''healing from tsukiyomi part''.She could heal those guys from Tsukiyomi when she had all his mental abilities and it took her time.After she takes Tsukiyomi,she has neither the first point nor the second.Imagine what would be Tsunade's mental state when she takes a Tsukiyomi.It's impossible for her to heal properly.
Yes i agree with the last part about a bllodlusted Itachi(why don't you join the itachi fanclub, you've assimilated all the arguments,the only one you should add is  wins by genjutsu rape,which is the case here :ho)


----------



## Panos (Dec 11, 2009)

Itachi takes this. His Genjutsu alone would be enough to kill Tsunade. Tsunade would be affected sooner than later, most probably in the beggining of the fight. Of course Itachi would still use his superior speed and kill her with exploding bushins. Or even Amaterasu.

Restrict Sharingan from Itachi so as to have something to discuss.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Dec 11, 2009)

itachi, he's probably the second strongest character to be introduced right after pain. gen jutsu would completly dominate tsnude no chance for her


----------



## Creator (Dec 11, 2009)

See. Like i said. Another thread to hype Itachi why degrading Tsunade. 



godtachi said:


> I completely disagree with the ''healing from tsukiyomi part''.She could heal those guys from Tsukiyomi when she had all his mental abilities and it took her time.



It took her time to wake Sasuke and Kakashi up?  Reread mate. Reread. She touched their forehead and they were awake.


----------



## Highgoober (Dec 11, 2009)

She'll be in not fit state to begin healing herself if she eats a Tsukiyomi, anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. Kakashi even stated that Itachi could have killed him with Tsukiyomi had he intended to, so a bloodlusted Itachi wouldn't leave any room for error.

Because it happens so fast, you can't prepare a defense against it, you can't begin preemptively healing, you won't even have the focus after 3 days of complete mental rape to try and use perfect chakra control to heal yourself.

Also in b4 Sozu Sensei tanks it. Just no, it regenerates the body, not the mind. 

Also before anyone says "Kakashi was standing up after Tsukiyomi, Tsunade can use that time to begin healing", Kakashi ate a no killing intent Tsukiyomi and was barely able to stay conscious long enough to talk to Itachi before collapsing. If it was a killing intent Tsukiyomi there's no question that the person is going down instantly and not getting back up.


----------



## G-Man (Dec 11, 2009)

Tsunade's only chance is to summon Katsuyu, use Katsuyu to protect herself, and pray Amaterasu can't kill the slug boss.

Otherwise Itachi will connect with something nasty and fatal.  He has too many ways of coming at you not to connect eventually if you can't take him out immediately.


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 11, 2009)

Creator said:


> See. Like i said. Another thread to hype Itachi why degrading Tsunade.
> 
> 
> 
> It took her time to wake Sasuke and Kakashi up?  Reread mate. Reread. She touched their forehead and they were awake.



Will she able to gather her chakra and use the technique when her mental state is very weak after taking a tsukiyomi


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Dec 11, 2009)

...Tsunade with knowledge isn't going to look in his eyes, which would be hard to do even if she wanted to given the location where the mist is canonically thick enough to block the sharingan. 

With AIDs and his sight deterioration, Itachi's going to have a lot of problems going the distance and taking out Tsunade if she dodges as well as Sakura. She'll pretty easily wear him down and make him resort to either Susan'oo or Amaterasu, both of which are arguable methods of killing Tsunade at best. 

Close fight.


----------



## Panos (Dec 11, 2009)

Watermelon Lover said:


> ...Tsunade with knowledge isn't going to look in his eyes, which would be hard to do even if she wanted to given the location where the mist is canonically thick enough to block the sharingan.
> 
> With AIDs and his sight deterioration, Itachi's going to have a lot of problems going the distance and taking out Tsunade if she dodges as well as Sakura. She'll pretty easily wear him down and make him resort to either Susan'oo or Amaterasu, both of which are arguable methods of killing Tsunade at best.
> 
> Close fight.



You are 100% wrong. Tsunade has not shown the ability to fight while avoding eye contact. Untill now only Gai is capable of doing it and maybe(a big maybe) Lee. Furthermore, there is no mist. As fas as i remember it was Zabuzas zutsu and kakashis inability to defend properly against it.

Itachi is much faster and quicker than Tsunade so what you are saying is not going to happen. Not in this manga. Susanoo and Amaterasu are jutsus Tsunade does not even dream of defending against. All in all, Tsunade would be able to kill Itachi if op restricted his Sharingan.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 11, 2009)

Even with knowledge, it's going to be hard for Tsunade.

She may know not to look into his eyes, but it's easier said than done. You would have great difficulty fighting him, and Itachi could always force Tsunade to look. Theres also the finger, how is she going to not look at his fingers? She won't be able to predict(not Sharingan predict, but judge what jutsu is going to be used from seals) what jutsu he's going to use. Not that she would be able to see his seals anyway, but there is always the possibility.


----------



## Pyro (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't see how anyone can say that any of his MS techniques "might" be able to kill Tsunade. Of course they can. 

Amaterasu burns whatever Itachi looks at, and we know for a fact that Tsunade is not fast enough to dodge that like Raikage was. This will hit her, and once it does, it will keep going till she is dead. With or without her regeneration. 
Susanoo doesn't kill in the convential way. It seals. One hit with this will also kill her, and seeing as how she is not as fast as either Orochimaru, or Sasuke, who got hit by this, then it's safe to assume she would get hit.
Tsukiyomi would sincerely wound Tsunade mentally. This is something that she cannot heal from as it is mental damage and Tsunade has been shown to be prone to mental damage. She was scared of blood, her brother's death, her lover's death, I would say that it would hit her harder than any other shinobi.
Other ways that Itachi could kill her would be the exploding bushin, or even a kunai to the neck. Fighting Tsunade is basically like fighting Hidan with only two lives. You kill her once, she heals, then her Regeneration seal is gone and all you need to do is kill her again and she's done.
Also, the mist that was there was Zabuza's jutsu. It's not there normally and thus will not be present on the battlefield.
And the slug? The slug has no way of killing Itachi, all it can do is relay info and heal, yet it's healing abilities are not as good as Tsunade's and in fact, the amount it can heal is based on Tsunade's chakra anyway. Summoning it will do nothing to stop Itachi from killing Tsunade.

Itachi wins this easily. Get rid of sharingan and this becomes more even but Itachi still wins.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 11, 2009)

> Not to meddle but Souzou Seisai could regenerate entire organs and limbs, that's why it's such an impressive jutsu as opposed to simple healing. Also, I think the setting was meant to almost 'ban' sharingan genjutsu. In mist as thick as the Kirigakure no jutsu, the sharingan is proven to be ineffective.


I think Souzou Seisai can just repair fatal damage to organs not re-grow them. So if Tsunade get her hand chopped of it would heal the wound, but not re-grow her hand.

As for the location preventing Sharigan Genjutsu i don't know what people are talking about. Sharigan can see through normal mist and normal mist is not as thick as Zabuza's technique. But anyway what Sharingan couldn't see through was Zabuza's Mist Specifically since it had chakra running through it.


----------



## Soul (Dec 11, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> I agree with the bolded bit. You should probably restrict Mangekyou Sharingan altogether so this match can be discussed more at length.



Tsunade would have the upper hand if I restrict MS, it would be a one-sided match


----------



## Maerala (Dec 11, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Tsunade would have the upper hand if I restrict MS, it would be a one-sided match



It's a one-sided match _now_.


----------



## Soul (Dec 11, 2009)

Creator said:


> See. Like i said. Another thread to hype Itachi why degrading Tsunade.



If this was a thread to hype Itachi and degrade Tsunade, I would make this:



> > Location: The Great Naruto Bridge
> > Knowledge: None.
> > Distance: 15 m.
> > Restrictions: _Itachi's Susano'o and Tsukuyomi. Also, *he doesn't has arms*_ .
> ...



This one is a fair thread.


----------



## Vergil642 (Dec 11, 2009)

Itachi rapes. You need to restrict Sharingan for this to be a fight.

No wait, equalize speed and then Tsunade can win.

Eye contact made? Genjutsu rape ensues.

They get into Taijutsu? Even if you ignore the fact Itachi can move faster than someone _faster_ than Tsunade can see, you can't ignore the fact he can pull off the same feat as he did in the manga to that person who's faster than Tsunade. Against Kurenai he _easily_ created a KB and zipped around behind Kakashi. All Kurenai saw was an Itachi appearing behind Kakashi. In other words, she didn't see him move until he'd finished. Tsunade doesn't see him move, gets murdered.

Aside from that, he sees her already much slower attacks in slow motion and sees them before they're done. And her skill is only a half tier above his. She's getting raped in Taijutsu.

Ninjutsu? Shit, Itachi can easily blast away with whatever he likes here. She'll dodge basic attacks, but considering someone with _vastly_ superior reactions found it hard to counter Suigadan, I can see Tsunade failing to do anything about it. On the other hand, she is good at dodging, so if she somehow can anticipate it (by perhaps spontanously developing precognition) she could probably evade it.

But what about Sozo Saisei you ask? Shit. Worthless. It lets her keep on truckin' for awhile until the chakra runs out. She still has no way of hitting Itachi and Itachi can easily hold her in a layered Genjutsu and let her stew until the chakra's run out. Or y'know, just run away, he's more than fast enough to do that.

Katsuyu? The only threat as Itachi can't kill her without MS. Amaterasu one shots though, so Tsunade can at least claim to force MS.

This is all assuming she doesn't just get her head cut off by Itachi, which is very possible.

Itachi rapes this hard, the only problem the enemy poses is summoning a giant slug. But as I've said, Amaterasu one shots easily.


----------



## GCokes (Dec 11, 2009)

Unfortunately, as much as I love Tsunade, Itachi would take this hands down. I don't see my lovely slug queen avoiding Amateratsu, as much as I love her. Even if she tries to tank it with souzou seisai, the amount of chakra to continually heal that would be inimaginable. Tsukuyomi is where I'm split. Is her chakra control mighty enough to break out of such a high level genjutsu, let alone a Mangeykou Sharingan technique? Only Kishi would be able to tell us that. In the end Susano'o takes the win hands down. There is absolutely nothing known to us that Tsunade has that could possibly destroy Susano'o. Like said before, get rid of the Mangeykou and she has a much better chance, if not guaranteed.


----------



## Creator (Dec 11, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Tsunade would have the upper hand if I restrict MS, it would be a one-sided match



One sided towards Itachi right? Genjutsu rapes right? 







Its not a fair fight now. 

Lets face it, in the battledome Tsunade can be paired against a tree and people will argue that as she hits the tree splinters will get into her eyes and she will die.

Pair Itachi against the Naruto verse and i can tell you this right now, the first 20 posts will be 'Itachi rapes because of Genjutsu and Susano'o'

So yes, this is a spite thread against Tsunade. Atleast i regard it as that. Its similar to the Sasuke VS Tsunade thread for which i got negged in even though it was a troll thread. 

Thus i will stick to my guns. I say Tsunade wins since Katsuyu is present. Nothing Itachi can do will help him win and he will get raped once his chakra is finished.


----------



## G-Man (Dec 11, 2009)

Creator said:


> One sided towards Itachi right? Genjutsu rapes right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So... you think Katsuyu can tank Amaterasu altogether or just at least long enough for Tsunade to defeat Itachi (though how she's going to beat him is still in question)?


----------



## Creator (Dec 11, 2009)

G-Man said:


> So... you think Katsuyu can tank Amaterasu altogether or just at least long enough for Tsunade to defeat Itachi (though how she's going to beat him is still in question)?



Yes. 

Amaterasu spreads until what it hit is destroyed.

Katsuyu can split up. 

One or two Amaterasu almost completely drains Itachi. So thats two mini clones lost to completely drain Itachi. After which Tsunade proceeds to punch his head in since he will be too tired to move.

Using Susano'o will only get him killed.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 11, 2009)

NF enjoys trolling my fandom. 

Itachi most likely wins. That doesn't make it impossible for Tsunade, mind you. I'd give it to him, 6-7/10.


----------



## King Of Gamesxx (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't think Tsunade can tank Tsukuyomi, I mean Kakashi keeled over from 1 Tsukuyomi, I doubt Tsunade would casually tank it and proceed to heal herself.

Also if Amaterasu connects with Katsuya, even if she splits wouldn't it be on the little Katsuyas too?


----------



## G-Man (Dec 11, 2009)

Creator said:


> Yes.
> 
> Amaterasu spreads until what it hit is destroyed.
> 
> ...



Good point about splitting up, though I doubt Itachi will waste more than one shot of Amaterasu on Katsuyu to begin with, so he'll hardly be keeling over.

That said, I don't see how Tsunade beats Susanoo.  That's the one thing Katsuyu can't tank and it didn't seem slow!


----------



## G-Man (Dec 11, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> *Kishimoto* enjoys trolling my fandom.
> 
> Itachi most likely wins. That doesn't make it impossible for Tsunade, mind you. I'd give it to him, 6-7/10.



Blame the author!


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 12, 2009)

With 2 out of 3 of the MS jutsu restricted Tsunade has a much better chance here. 

First off to cover genjutsu:

With full knowledge I assume Tsunade should be alright here. If NOTHING else she can simply place a mini Katsuya or 2 in her pocket and have them constantly inject her with chakra. 

Tsukiyami may still be an issue but again, with full knowledge I am assuming she avoids it or plans some sort of counter.

This is not to say Tsukiyami isn't still a threat, simply that it loses a lot of its value in a scenario where this is knowledge.

Next order of business. Itachi HAS to avoid getting caught by Tsunade because 1 hit probably equates to death. That said I think he is going to attempt faints and mid ranged ninjutsu (Katon's) to throw her off balance. 

Although based on Tsunade's reputation and how I view her when not rusty I believe she will be able to deal (at least mostly) with a lot of that stuff. Then of course there is Rebirth to consider even if she does slip up. 

Itachi has knowledge on that and I am not so naive as to assume he wouldn't take advantage but Tsunade SHOULD be able to avoid most fatal connections. 

Not sure where to go with this. I don't believe it will be easy for Itachi to take Tsunade out but I also don't think she has a very good chance of taking him out either. So I foresee a pretty long and hard fought battle where an advantage goes to Tsunade due to more stamina, but I still am not sure she would pull it off.

She could last resort and go Katsuya, but that probably isn't all that likely.

I am thinking Itachi 7/10 or so.


----------



## Griever (Dec 12, 2009)

hmm, i can see it going either way. 

Itachi without Susanno and Amaterasu can be beat by Tsunade, I think that Tsunade's Genisis Rebirth could give her a chance to get the drop on Itachi.

And i can see Tsunade not being able to do much agesnt Tsukiyomi.

I'd give it 50/50.
Though i give the edge to Itachi.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Dec 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> *Location*: The Great Naruto Bridge
> *Knowledge*: Full.
> *Distance*: 40 m.
> *Restrictions*: Itachi's Amaterasu and Susano'o.
> *State of Mind*: Both are bloodlusted.



I love how half the people here are totally ignoring Itachi's restrictions.

Even if MS is restricted entirely, I think he could still take her out using his normal Sharingan and back-up jutsu.

It's always hard to see Tsunade in these fights though, as we really haven't seen much of her actual offensive attacks. She can only heal herself so much and so quickly, and using her rebirth technique not only kills her chakra, but takes years off of her life. Her best bet would be Katsuyu, and hiding on her head while healing herself as necessary. She could also use her attack where she can screw up someone's neural signals, but considering Itachi's intelligence, I don't think that would confuse him for very long.

If she pulls out Katsuyu, he can turn into his crows, which can still perform jutsu (or just be used as long-range weapons). Katsuyu may be able to turn into dozens/hundreds of smaller slugs, but they are grounded, and his crows could take them out probably even without using jutsu depending on their size. 

Larger slugs could be washed away by his water release attack (if they're on a bridge over water, he could use that to his advantage) or burned up with his fireball technique.


With Tsukuyomi available, which I don't think is necessary:

*Spoiler*: __ 





Itachi could likely take her out with Tsukuyomi. Not to say that Tsunade is emotionally or mentally weak or anything, because she is clearly NOT, but there is a lot in her past that Itachi could torture her with if he managed to catch her in Tsukuyomi. Kakashi said it can't be escaped, and only Sasuke was known to break it with his own Sharingan (evidently it's a skill Kakashi doesn't even have). Tsunade may be able to cure someone else of the effects, but she can't cure herself if she's trapped in it.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Dec 12, 2009)

What meaningless propaganda says Souzou Seisai takes Tsunade's base chakra? If that were true there would be no point at all to the chakra seal on her head.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Dec 12, 2009)

Watermelon Lover said:


> What meaningless propaganda says Souzou Seisai takes Tsunade's base chakra? If that were true there would be no point at all to the chakra seal on her head.





If you're talking about what I said, the manga was the meaningless propaganda that said her rebirth technique shortens her lifespan, as it doesn't repair old cells but generates new ones, essentially speeding her life up at the moment. It's a Kinjutsu, after all.


----------



## Creator (Dec 12, 2009)

G-Man said:


> Good point about splitting up, though I doubt Itachi will waste more than one shot of Amaterasu on Katsuyu to begin with, so he'll hardly be keeling over.
> 
> That said, I don't see how Tsunade beats Susanoo.  That's the one thing Katsuyu can't tank and it didn't seem slow!



The same Susano'o which caused him to die? 

I mean as long as Tsunade avoids a speech dictating how she plans to win and take the sharingan, Itachi cant hit her.



G-Man said:


> Blame the author!



No, blame the fans who hype Itachi to the stongest Shinobi in the Narutoverse.

I wouldnt be surprized if some even say Itachi is stronger then the Jubi.


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 12, 2009)

@creator.Do you really believe Tsunade can defend against one of the MS jutsu??


----------



## Creator (Dec 12, 2009)

godtachi said:


> @creator.Do you really believe Tsunade can defend against one of the MS jutsu??



You really want me to go into this?


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 12, 2009)

Creator said:


> You really want me to go into this?



Yes,please


----------



## Creator (Dec 12, 2009)

godtachi said:


> Yes,please



Yes. And thats my answer. I wont go into detail.


----------



## Vergil642 (Dec 12, 2009)

Not that it affects the thread all that much, but no, Tsunade cannot stop MS jutsu.

Tsukuyomi: Ok, she can heal others. But look at the state Kakashi was in after he took a pretty effortless one. All Itachi did was stab him for a few days nonstop and he was barely able to stay conscious. He was in no position to fight. He also had a Sharingan to put up a bit of a defence against it, meaning there's no reason to assume Tsunade can do any better. Sozo Saisei heals the body, it's never been stated to do anything to the mind, so that's out too. In such a weakened state, if not outright unconscious if Itachi wants to get creative or downright nasty with Tsukuyomi (remember he's effectively omnipotent within it) she won't be capable of healing the mental damage done to her.

Amaterasu: This one shots Tsunade easily, but people have said Katsuyu can deal with it. This is just silly. Amaterasu tends to engulf it's target near immediately. Against the Katons, Itachi's was as big as them. Against Hachibi, Sasuke's Amaterasu also became huge. Why not against Katsuyu? Let's say she seperates her body. That's cool, it'll save at most half of her mass. This is assuming the flames haven't gone all around her body. That's half of her dead, minimum. She's doing to be ineffectual as hell now, or outright unable to do anything as she's going to lack the mass (already lacks the speed) to stop Itachi killing Tsunade.

Susanoo: Someone with much better reactions couldn't see the Totsuka sword coming at him, why is Tsunade going to be able to dodge it? Remember as well, one hit=sealed Tsunade/Katsuyu.

Tsunade can't deal with MS jutsu. It's nothing to be ashamed of, you can probably count the number of characters who have counters to it on one hand. The fact she can force Itachi to use MS is good in itself as most characters can't get past catching sight of his eyes; Tsunade at least stands a chance of surviving the Genjutsu blitz.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Dec 12, 2009)

PikaCheeka said:


> I love how half the people here are totally ignoring Itachi's restrictions.
> 
> Even if MS is restricted entirely, I think he could still take her out using his normal Sharingan and back-up jutsu.
> 
> ...





PikaCheeka said:


> If you're talking about what I said, the manga was the meaningless propaganda that said her rebirth technique shortens her lifespan, as it doesn't repair old cells but generates new ones, essentially speeding her life up at the moment. It's a Kinjutsu, after all.



I actually never disputed the jutsu taking years off of her life... I dispute the bolded, it won't touch her base chakra. That's why she has the forehead seal...


----------



## αce (Dec 12, 2009)

So how does Itachi get hit by Tsunade?

I mean the genjutsu rape here is intense. She can't heal mind rape.


----------



## Maerala (Dec 12, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> She can't heal mind rape.



Yes she can.  I mean, I still think Tsunade loses, but yes she can.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 12, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Yes she can.  I mean, I still think Tsunade loses, but yes she can.



How would she heal herself from that condition. If you say because she did it to sasuke and kakashi, that's because she was completely sane and they were the ones who needed healing. She wouldn't be as proficient if she wasn't sane.


----------



## Maerala (Dec 12, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> How would she heal herself from that condition. If you say because she did it to sasuke and kakashi, that's because she was completely sane and they were the ones who needed healing. She wouldn't be as proficient if she wasn't sane.



Tsukuyomi doesn't immediately drop you. Tsunade has a lot more willpower than both pre-timeskip Kakashi and Sasuke. She overcame her fear of blood, which causes extreme mental breakdowns, and was still standing up after having suffered several life-threatning blows, including one through her chest. Even after those hits, she was still able to release Infuuin and use Sozou Saisei. Going by these feats, she can still control her chakra long enough after having taken Tsukuyomi to heal herself from it.

Though I've been hearing a lot about a bloodlusted Tsukuyomi being able to kill right off the bat or somethin'. I'm not the biggest Uchiha fan, so can anyone give him some information on this? Never heard of it before.


----------



## Panos (Dec 12, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Tsukuyomi doesn't immediately drop you. Tsunade has a lot more willpower than both pre-timeskip Kakashi and Sasuke. She overcame her fear of blood, which causes extreme mental breakdowns, and was still standing up after having suffered several life-threatning blows, including one through her chest. Even after those hits, she was still able to release Infuuin and use Sozou Saisei. Going by these feats, she can still control her chakra long enough after having taken Tsukuyomi to heal herself from it.
> 
> Though I've been hearing a lot about a bloodlusted Tsukuyomi being able to kill right off the bat or somethin'. I'm not the biggest Uchiha fan, so can anyone give him some information on this? Never heard of it before.



She doesnt have Sharingan though which offers some protection to Genjutsu. Tsukuyomi according to kakashi could have killed him had Itachi wanted. Itachi did not want hence the logical conclusion that Itachi can kill even someone with Sharingan if he uses Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 12, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Tsukuyomi doesn't immediately drop you. Tsunade has a lot more willpower than both pre-timeskip Kakashi and Sasuke. She overcame her fear of blood.



Just to point out, when itachi used tsukuyomi on kakashi and sasuke, he could have killed them if he wanted to, even kakashi admitted that. And both of them have the sharingan, which weakens the attack barely. Tsunade is a different story, and itachi is bloodlusted here, which pretty much makes tsunade out cold or even dead as soon as it's over.


----------



## Maerala (Dec 12, 2009)

Well, obviously, during the time she's on the ground healing herself he could kill her.  Though if Katsuyu's out before Tsunade's caught she could offer some protection by melding with her until Tsunade finishes healing, but only if she's out beforehand, like I said.

How much protection does Sharingan offer against Tsukuyomi, exactly?


----------



## Panos (Dec 12, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Well, obviously, during the time she's on the ground healing herself he could kill her.  Though if Katsuyu's out before Tsunade's caught she could offer some protection by melding with her until Tsunade finishes healing, but only if she's out beforehand, like I said.
> 
> How much protection does Sharingan offer against Tsukuyomi, exactly?



Sasuke due to Sharingan had enough power to break Itachis Tsukuyomi. One could argue that Itachi did not go for the kill but, in my opinion, Sasuke would not have been killed even if Itachi wanted.


----------



## Creator (Dec 12, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Sasuke due to Sharingan had enough power to break Itachis Tsukuyomi. One could argue that Itachi did not go for the kill but, in my opinion, Sasuke would not have been killed even if Itachi wanted.



I love how this post has both Plot No Jutsu, Itachi hyped and Sasuke hype. 

Not to mention stretching the power of Itachi's MS genjutsu.


----------



## Maerala (Dec 12, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Sasuke due to Sharingan had enough power to break Itachis Tsukuyomi. One could argue that Itachi did not go for the kill but, in my opinion, Sasuke would not have been killed even if Itachi wanted.



Well, what I mean is, was Kakashi still standing after having taken a Tsukuyomi due to some kind of protecting from his single Sharingan? If he was, then I question whether Tsunade's willpower alone would be enough to sustain the mental damage from Tsukuyomi long enough to heal herself from Tsukuyomi while Katsuyu surrounds her. Still, she's shown a great deal of both mental and physical durability. My only point, however, is that his MS genjutsu is not the biggest threat to Tsunade, but I still think he takes this. Possibly... Is he sick though? Is he going blind here? Those could be factors that would alter the outcome.


----------



## Panos (Dec 12, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Well, what I mean is, was Kakashi still standing after having taken a Tsukuyomi due to some kind of protecting from his single Sharingan? If he was, then I question whether Tsunade's willpower alone would be enough to sustain the mental damage from Tsukuyomi long enough to heal herself from Tsukuyomi while Katsuyu surrounds her. Still, she's shown a great deal of both mental and physical durability. My only point, however, is that his MS genjutsu is not the biggest threat to Tsunade, but I still think he takes this. Possibly... Is he sick though? Is he going blind here? Those could be factors that would alter the outcome.



Kakashi after taking a Tsukuyomi was not able to move and that was while having a Sharingan and Itachi not going for the kill. In this battle nothing from these two would happen. Tsunade doesnt have Sharingan and Itachi will go for the kill.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 12, 2009)

Creator said:


> I love how this post has both Plot No Jutsu, Itachi hyped and Sasuke hype.
> 
> Not to mention stretching the power of Itachi's MS genjutsu.



How is he stretching the power of itachis ms genjutsu, please explain. You complaining about tsunade losing to itachi isn't going to help.


----------



## Creator (Dec 12, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> How is he stretching the power of itachis ms genjutsu, please explain. You complaining about tsunade losing to itachi isn't going to help.



For example how one MS Genjutsu is instant kill yet it hasnt killed anyone.  Then to use the Databook to back up the point and then later on disagree with the Databook since it doesnt agree with your point. The contradition is what i find amusing. 

I will complain because this isnt the first Tsunade VS Uchiha thread. These threads are blatent bashing threads.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 12, 2009)

Creator said:


> For example how one MS Genjutsu is instant kill yet it hasnt killed anyone.  Then to use the Databook to back up the point and then later on disagree with the Databook since it doesnt agree with your point. The contradition is what i find amusing.
> 
> I will complain because this isnt the first Tsunade VS Uchiha thread. These threads are blatent bashing threads.



SO you're saying kakashi was bluffing to himself when he admitted that itachi could have easily killed him if he wanted to?.


----------



## Creator (Dec 12, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> SO you're saying kakashi was bluffing to himself when he admitted that itachi could have easily killed him if he wanted to?.



Is Kakashi dead or not? No. Then Manga doesnt sustain the argument.

I am not dismissing it powerful. But there is a limit to hype. 

To say just because Itachi can genjutsu, doesnt alway mean he can win. In this match i dont think Genjutsu helps Itachi since Tsunade can summon bloody fast. And will full knowledge Tsunade wont look at Itachi's eyes. This however doesnt mean that Tsunade ca fight without looking at him. It only means that as the match starts Tsunade wont make eye contact.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 12, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> So how does Itachi get hit by Tsunade?
> 
> I mean the genjutsu rape here is intense. *She can't heal mind rape. *



Ace, you now we're cool. Home skillet biscuits and all that. 

But no. She instantly healed both a comatose Sasuke and Kakashi, before Sakura's tears could even fall. You know it's fast when that happens.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 12, 2009)

Creator said:


> Is Kakashi dead or not? No. Then Manga doesnt sustain the argument.
> 
> It only means that as the match starts Tsunade wont make eye contact.



The 
does sustain the argument. And how would she be able to fight on the same caliber if she were to not look at his eyes when he could shoot an amaterasu at her. The only thing keeping this argument on hold is your stubbornness.



Lady Tsunade said:


> Ace, you now we're cool. Home skillet biscuits and all that.
> 
> But no. She instantly healed both a comatose Sasuke and Kakashi, before Sakura's tears could even fall. You know it's fast when that happens.



How would she heal herself from a comatose state?


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 12, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> How would she heal herself from a comatose state?



They weren't immediatley put into a comatose state. They were still able to function for a while, in Kakashi's case, there was enough time for:

-Gai to appear and Dynamic Entry the fuck out of Kisame
-Itachi to chastise Kisame, and saying they needed to leave, not start a war.
-Itachi and Kisame to disappear
-Kakashi to stand there, huffing for a bit, before collapsing

And that's just what I recall off the top of my head. More is sure to have occured than that. But even then, this is enough to press her chakra-glowing hand to her forehead and heal herself in moments.


----------



## Creator (Dec 12, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> The
> does sustain the argument. And how would she be able to fight on the same caliber if she were to not look at his eyes when he could shoot an amaterasu at her. The only thing keeping this argument on hold is your stubbornness



Is Kakashi dead? No. Simple. You cant get simpler then that. 

The jutsu is meant to cause 'a breakdown in ones spirit'. Actually i have no clue what spirit refers to :S. 

Again, i said as long as initially she avoids eye contact and summons Katsuyu, its over. Genjutsu wont effect her at all. She has full knowledge. 

Amaterasu, as per the manga, can be used twice before Itachi is almost fully drained. Amaterasu against someone who can split, is useless. 


My stubbornness has nothing to do with this thread. I already made my views on this thread clear. Its an Uchiha vs Tsunade. This match Itachi could have had a 100 battles against Kages, and have 3 seconds left to live vs a fully powered pumped up Tsunade and Itachi would still win.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 12, 2009)

Creator said:


> Is Kakashi dead? No. Simple. You cant get simpler then that.
> 
> The jutsu is meant to cause 'a breakdown in ones spirit'. Actually i have no clue what spirit refers to :S.
> 
> ...



DO you think really we're basing this on nothing more than hype, what makes you think she'll be able to fight perfectly while avoiding eye contact, summon katsuyu with ease, be able to survive tsukuyomi, and so on. Besides katsuyu can possibly be hypnotized like how manda was by sasuke, and itachi is much faster than tsunade. Don't get me wrong, tsunade is a great ninja in her own right. She just doesn't have any long distance attacks to hit itachi with, but if itachi were to get hit by her it's over. But all in all itachi is probably going to win this.

*and as for the kakashi thing, as I've said itachi did not want to kill him but could have. Kakashi even said he could have killed him, which is stated in the manga. Itachi just DID NOT WANT TO KILL HIM. Please don't repeat I've said this two times already.



Lady Tsunade said:


> They weren't immediatley put into a comatose state. They were still able to function for a while, in Kakashi's case, there was enough time for:
> 
> -Gai to appear and Dynamic Entry the fuck out of Kisame
> -Itachi to chastise Kisame, and saying they needed to leave, not start a war.
> ...



As i said, itachi didn't want to kill them (especially sasuke). And both sharingan which weakens tsukuyomi a little, and kakashi still admitted that he could have killed him. Tsunade doesn't have sharingan and itachi in this case is wanting to kill her. Which means she'd be dead if she were to get caught in it.


----------



## `Monster (Dec 12, 2009)

This is suicide! 

But its a 60 to 40 chance.

Tsunade gets the 60% chance at winning. Itachi gets the 40% chance at winning.
Considering Tsunade can Summons Katsuyu...although Katsuyu will crush the bridge and land in the water 

She can still spit acid, considering we don't know how deep the water is.


----------



## Creator (Dec 12, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> DO you think really we're basing this on nothing more than hype



Yes. 



> what makes you think she'll be able to fight perfectly while avoiding eye contact, summon katsuyu with ease, be able to survive tsukuyomi, and so on. Besides katsuyu can possibly be hypnotized like how manda was by sasuke, and itachi is much faster than tsunade. Don't get me wrong, tsunade is a great ninja in her own right. She just doesn't have any long distance attacks to hit itachi with, but if itachi were to get hit by her it's over. But all in all itachi is probably going to win this.



Because her hand seals arent shabby either. She summoned Katsuyu quite fast. 

And if you saw the panel where she was healing herself against Kabuto. 

She has to avoid Eye contact for 3 seconds and Bang Katsuyu is out. 

And no. Katsuyu cant be hypotised since Tsunade is there. It works both ways. 

She doesnt need long distant attacks to pwn an Uchiha. They pwn themselves. 



> and as for the kakashi thing, as I've said itachi did not want to kill him but could have. Kakashi even said he could have killed him, which is stated in the manga. Itachi just DID NOT WANT TO KILL HIM. Please don't repeat I've said this two times already.



It doesnt matter if Itachi didnt want to do it or not. We base it on what we have seen. What we have seen thus far is that Itachi's techs kill him, and someone with a good chakra control, or a grasp of Genjutsu + Boss summon beats him.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 12, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> As i said, itachi didn't want to kill them (especially sasuke). And both sharingan which weakens tsukuyomi a little, and kakashi still admitted that he could have killed him. Tsunade doesn't have sharingan and itachi in this case is wanting to kill her. Which means she'd be dead if she were to get caught in it.



All well and good. But this entire thing is dependant upon eye contact.

Edit: I just realized: Itachi never showed it. By battledome standards, he can't utilize it here then.


----------



## Soul (Dec 12, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Tsukuyomi doesn't immediately drop you. Tsunade has a lot more willpower than both pre-timeskip Kakashi and Sasuke. She overcame her fear of blood, which causes extreme mental breakdowns, and was still standing up after having suffered several life-threatning blows, including one through her chest. Even after those hits, she was still able to release Infuuin and use Sozou Saisei. Going by these feats, she can still control her chakra long enough after having taken Tsukuyomi to heal herself from it.



I don't know why, but people do think that willpower can help you overcome Tsukuyomi?
I don't think so.

Evem so, I don't believe that Tsunade has much more willpower than Pre Time-Skip Kakashi, and Kakashi has a Sharingan, which helps you to resist the illusion.



> Though I've been hearing a lot about a bloodlusted Tsukuyomi being able to kill right off the bat or somethin'. I'm not the biggest Uchiha fan, so can anyone give him some information on this? Never heard of it before.



Well, a non-bloodlusted Itachi without killing intent fucked Kakashi for a week.
We can speculate than an Itachi bloodlusted would fuck you immediately if you get caught in Tsukuyomi.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> *I don't know why, but people do think that willpower can help you overcome Tsukuyomi?*
> I don't think so.



Not necessarily overcome, but allow her to stay conscious enough even more so than the time already allotted, so she can heal herself.



> Evem so, I don't believe that Tsunade has much more willpower than Pre Time-Skip Kakashi, and Kakashi has a Sharingan, which helps you to resist the illusion.



She broke out of a phobia through will power. Kakashi has nothing on that.



> Well, a non-bloodlusted Itachi without killing intent fucked Kakashi for a week.
> We can speculate than an Itachi bloodlusted would fuck you immediately if you get caught in Tsukuyomi.



Which is unlikely to happen, as both sides have full knowledge.


----------



## Soul (Dec 12, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Not necessarily overcome, but allow her to stay conscious enough even more so than the time already allotted, so she can heal herself.



Itachi won't stop attacking, not Bloodlusted.
If Tsukuyomi hits Tsunade, it's over.



> She broke out of a phobia through will power. Kakashi has nothing on that.



OMFG ITACHI IS GOD; NO ONE CAN WITHSTAND IT
True.



> Which is unlikely to happen, as both sides have full knowledge.



While this is true, it may happen.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Itachi won't stop attacking, not Bloodlusted.
> If Tsukuyomi hits Tsunade, it's over.



Meld with Katsuyu to buy time, or have Katsuyu attack while Tsunade heals for a bit.



> OMFG ITACHI IS GOD; NO ONE CAN WITHSTAND IT
> True.



TSUNADE SOLOS ITACHI BECAUSE HE USES HIS SHARINGAN TO WATCH HER BOOBS BOUNCE IN SLOW MOTION AND DIES OF BLOOD LOSS THROUGH NOSE!!! 

Glad you agree.



> While this is true, it may happen.



May or may not?


----------



## Soul (Dec 12, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Meld with Katsuyu to buy time, or have Katsuyu attack while Tsunade heals for a bit.



How would she meld with Katsuku that fast?
Tsukuyomi's effects fuck the opponent pretty much instantaneously, after that, Itachi can attack immediately with freedom.



> TSUNADE SOLOS ITACHI BECAUSE HE USES HIS SHARINGAN TO WATCH HER BOOBS BOUNCE IN SLOW MOTION AND DIES OF BLOOD LOSS THROUGH NOSE!!!
> 
> Glad you agree.



FUCK NOOOOOOO





> May or may not?



Tsunade may be caught with Tsukuyomi, with or without knowledge.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> How would she meld with *Katsuku* that fast?
> Tsukuyomi's effects fuck the opponent pretty much instantaneously, after that, Itachi can attack immediately with freedom.



I don't know who the hell Katsuku is. 

Katsuyu can meld with anything. It can do it rather quickly, as shown with the Chou Shinra Tensei thing. Within the few moments that it began and ended, Tsunade gave up her chakra to save the villagers, and when it showed the others, Katsuyu had already been on them (rapist ) and was just detaching after the blow.



> FUCK NOOOOOOO



He's gay then? 





> Tsunade may be caught with Tsukuyomi, with or without knowledge.



Highly, highly unlikely.


----------



## Soul (Dec 12, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> I don't know who the hell Katsuku is.



Really?
I am disappointed...



> Katsuyu can meld with anything. It can do it rather quickly, as shown with the Chou Shinra Tensei thing. Within the few moments that it began and ended, Tsunade gave up her chakra to save the villagers, and when it showed the others, Katsuyu had already been on them (rapist ) and was just detaching after the blow.



What if Katsuyu isn't summoned already?



> He's gay then?



"NOOOOO" for discovering his weak point, although...
*Spoiler*: __ 



HE IS BLIND 











> Highly, highly unlikely.



Why?
Knowledge of it doesn't means that you won't be gaught in it.
We have example, like Deidara and Naruto


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 12, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Really?
> I am disappointed...



I don't really have a memory for fodder. Which makes me question why I'm in an Itachi thread.





> What if Katsuyu isn't summoned already?



Summoning takes a few seconds. Shunshin to a respectable difference, and summon before he capitalizes on her stationary behaviour.



> "NOOOOO" for discovering his weak point, although...
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



 Of course. All are susceptible. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



When he feels them, then. He dies from a nose bleed, or for feeling them, since Tsunade will one-shot him. Either way. 







> Why?
> Knowledge of it doesn't means that you won't be gaught in it.
> We have example, like Deidara and Naruto



Because unlike Naruto, Tsunade's actually competent with information.  As shown when she instantly formulated a plan to counter-act Shinra Tensei with the information Chouji gave her. And Pein even acknowleged it'd work, but said it would be useless against an overwhelming power like Chou Shinra Tensei. She topped that too.


----------



## Highgoober (Dec 13, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Tsukuyomi doesn't immediately drop you. Tsunade has a lot *more willpower than* both pre-timeskip Kakashi and *Sasuke*. She overcame her fear of blood, which causes extreme mental breakdowns, and was still standing up after having suffered several life-threatning blows, including one through her chest. Even after those hits, she was still able to release Infuuin and use Sozou Saisei. Going by these feats, she can still control her chakra long enough after having taken Tsukuyomi to heal herself from it.
> 
> Though I've been hearing a lot about a bloodlusted Tsukuyomi being able to kill right off the bat or somethin'. I'm not the biggest Uchiha fan, so can anyone give him some information on this? Never heard of it before.



He watched his parents and clan die mercilessly through Tsukiyomi and and in real time but still didn't develop a crippling fear of Katana's or Itachi.

Tsunade watched one person die once and developed a crippling fear of blood.

Good going with that willpower there Tsunade, way to show us how mentally tough you really are.


----------



## Creator (Dec 13, 2009)

Roka said:


> He watched his parents and clan die mercilessly through Tsukiyomi and and in real time but still didn't develop a crippling fear of Katana's or Itachi.
> 
> Tsunade watched one person die once and developed a crippling fear of blood.
> 
> Good going with that willpower there Tsunade, way to show us how mentally tough you really are.



Umm.....Tsunade watched Dan die in her hands as she tried to heal him. Tsunade's only younger brother also died because of War. 

Add in the fact that as a medic she sees alot of blood, its not a stretch to say that she will eventually fear blood especially if she failed to heal the one she loved. 


That isnt the test of her will power though. Her test of will power was overcoming this fear to protect Naruto. Thats her real will power.


----------



## Highgoober (Dec 13, 2009)

Creator said:


> Umm.....Tsunade watched Dan die in her hands as she tried to heal him. Tsunade's only younger brother also died because of War.
> 
> Add in the fact that as a medic she sees alot of blood, its not a stretch to say that she will eventually fear blood especially if she failed to heal the one she loved.
> 
> ...



Sasuke watched his whole clan, including his parents be executed by his older brother over and over and over again. He also walked in on the whole thing when it originally happened. How exactly is seeing one person you love die comparable to seeing your family and clan die?

Add in the fact that he was a mere child when this first happened and again still very young when he was forced to relive it all for three days and his inability to be strong enough to save them. He still never developed any kind of phobia regarding the incident.

Developing a phobia, especially a crippling _irrational_ fear of something she's been around for years is a mental weakness. All it took was one death to send her over the deep end and people actually think she's stable enough to survive reliving that experience again for 3 days straight and then still manage to be in any kind of state to heal herself.


----------



## Ragormha (Dec 13, 2009)

Creator said:


> Umm.....Tsunade watched Dan die in her hands as she tried to heal him. Tsunade's only younger brother also died because of War.



Sasuke watched Itachi kill his parents and clan *for days*. When he was a kid. 

What does he do? He resolves to kill him. 



> Add in the fact that as a medic she sees alot of blood, its not a stretch to say that she will eventually fear blood especially if she failed to heal the one she loved.



Creator, this is not true and you know it. Repeated exposure brings _desensitisation _ not increased susceptibility. 

Of course, you could argue that if she was always on the field her stress levels would run too high, but regardless, it's small apples. 


> That isnt the test of her will power though. Her test of will power was overcoming this fear to protect Naruto. Thats her real will power.



Eh, Sasuke not turning into an obsessed Oro-slave after being around him for years trumps that.


----------



## Winchester Gospel (Dec 13, 2009)

Has this really become a debate about willpower? Regarding the one Sannin that decided to throw her success away and drown her sorrows in materialism?

Let's not make this more of a bashing thread than it already is. Tsukuyomi was stated to be fatal if Itachi wants it to be. Even if it doesn't kill, the victim is in no position to continue fighting or perform techniques. We have seen this every time it has been performed. That should be enough to determine that the battle will end if Tsunade is hit with Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Kai (Dec 13, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> They weren't immediatley put into a comatose state. They were still able to function for a while, in Kakashi's case, there was enough time for:
> 
> -Gai to appear and Dynamic Entry the fuck out of Kisame
> -Itachi to chastise Kisame, and saying they needed to leave, not start a war.
> ...


That 'time' was made available because Kakashi had a) minimal Sharingan resistance and b) mercy from Itachi, as already expressed by himself and Kisame.

Simple deduction here. Itachi's bloodlusted and Tsunade doesn't have any counter for such. There's no room for convenience or error. She's gonna get raped.


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 13, 2009)

Is this thread still going on??

Tsunade can't win against Itachi,she's not in the same tier.If you restricted MS then it would be a closer match(but still Tsunade looses via genjutsu rape ).People who think that Tsunade can heal herself from the effects of Tsukiyomi are very .When she takes a Tsukiyomi,her mental abilities will be so low that she won't even be able to perform a single hand-seal,much less concentrate her chakra and use it on herself.

Amaterasu:she doesn't have the speed to counter it,and even if Katsuyu is there,it doesn't have the speed to cover Tsunade before the flames hit her.

Susanoo: rapestomp

Tsunade will never be able to hit Itachi,ninja who are faster couldn't(sasuke,when he wasn't  suffering from blindness,kakashi or Oro).Itachi is much faster than her and has sharingan.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 13, 2009)

Kai said:


> That 'time' was made available because Kakashi had a) minimal Sharingan resistance and b) mercy from Itachi, as already expressed by himself and Kisame.
> 
> Simple deduction here. Itachi's bloodlusted and Tsunade doesn't have any counter for such. There's no room for convenience or error. She's gonna get raped.



Itachi hasn't displayed the ability, even if it was stated, to kill people with Tsukuyomi. He hasn't displayed that feat, so it's not useable. Something people always use against me.


----------



## Highgoober (Dec 13, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Itachi hasn't displayed the ability, even if it was stated, to kill people with Tsukuyomi. He hasn't displayed that feat, so it's not useable. Something people always use against me.



Deidara didn't show the seal for Kage Bunshin but we know he has it.

Anyway, he can kill. Kakashi stated that for a reason.

Give an example of Tsunade being stated to have something that people don't let you use and you might actually have a point.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 13, 2009)

Roka said:


> Deidara didn't show the seal for Kage Bunshin but we know he has it.
> 
> Anyway, he can kill. Kakashi stated that for a reason.
> 
> Give an example of Tsunade being stated to have something that people don't let you use and you might actually have a point.



The infamous "I am undefeatable in battle (when Souzou Saisei's on)", yet though she hasn't shown to have Souzou Saisei top things such as decaptiation, cut limbs ,etc (despite her stating the limbs/organs for sure, decapitation debatable), they say " No, she can die via [INSERT METHODS HERE]."


----------



## Highgoober (Dec 13, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> The infamous "I am undefeatable in battle (when Souzou Saisei's on)", yet though she hasn't shown to have Souzou Saisei top things such as decaptiation, cut limbs ,etc (despite her stating the limbs/organs for sure, decapitation debatable), they say " No, she can die via [INSERT METHODS HERE]."



You can have that but I counter with only an uchiha can defeat me, Itachi.

PARADOX

See why characters talking about themselves is rarely accepted as truth? Kakashi stated Itachi could have killed him, he should know since he was the one that felt the effects of the jutsu and must have known he was close to death and that Itachi could have done much worse to him.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 13, 2009)

Roka said:


> You can have that but I counter with only an uchiha can defeat me, Itachi.
> 
> PARADOX
> 
> See why characters talking about themselves is rarely accepted as truth? Kakashi stated Itachi could have killed him, he should know since he was the one that felt the effects of the jutsu and must have known he was close to death and that Itachi could have done much worse to him.



Tsunade's statement was also backed up by Shizune. Itachi, however, is a notorious liar. His entire life was a shroud of mystery that he had to lie to protect Sasuke/Konoha. Tsunade, albeit gambling debt instances, has not been shown to lie. And as the best medic so far, I'm pretty sure she knows what she's capable of.


----------



## Highgoober (Dec 13, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Tsunade's statement was also backed up by Shizune. Itachi, however, is a notorious liar. His entire life was a shroud of mystery that he had to lie to protect Sasuke/Konoha. Tsunade, albeit gambling debt instances, has not been shown to lie. And as the best medic so far, I'm pretty sure she knows what she's capable of.



Lying about only being able to be defeated by an Uchiha in no way helped his great lie so you'd need to provide a valid reason to believe it's a lie. As one of the most intelligent and strong people in the manga, I'm sure Itachi had a good idea of how he compared to other ninja.

Tsunade was a drunk, gambler who had spent years away from battle. How exactly did she test run her jutsu? Did she have Shizune lop of her head to check if she could regrow it? There's a difference between theory and practice.

Kakashi is one of the most intelligent people in the manga, he knew about MS in some way and felt the effects of it first hand. I'm pretty sure his opinion on it being able to kill are correct. 

Tsunade's statement doesn't even make sense unless you think she can tank things like Ameratsu or the Tsuchikage's Dust Release box of doom simply by regenerating. If the jutsu kills her instantly then it'd be impossible for her to regenerate, that's just common sense.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 13, 2009)

Roka said:


> Lying about only being able to be defeated by an Uchiha in no way helped his great lie so you'd need to provide a valid reason to believe it's a lie. As one of the most intelligent and strong people in the manga, I'm sure Itachi had a good idea of how he compared to other ninja.
> 
> Tsunade was a drunk, gambler who had spent years away from battle. How exactly did she test run her jutsu? Did she have Shizune lop of her head to check if she could regrow it? There's a difference between theory and practice.
> 
> ...



Onoki's Rubix Cube of Death, I'm sure she can't regenerate from. 

However, Amaterasu doesn't kill instantly. It burns away until it does. Say Itachi got Amaterasu on her arm. It's not too hard to believe that should she cut off her arm and regenerate it, she won't die from that Amaterasu.

But how silly of me. I have such high, unrealistic expectations of someone most consider fodder. Who am I to say?


----------



## Highgoober (Dec 13, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Onoki's Rubix Cube of Death, I'm sure she can't regenerate from.
> 
> However, Amaterasu doesn't kill instantly. It burns away until it does. Say Itachi got Amaterasu on her arm. It's not too hard to believe that should she cut off her arm and regenerate it, she won't die from that Amaterasu.
> 
> But how silly of me. I have such high, unrealistic expectations of someone most consider fodder. Who am I to say?



I'd say she's too slow to only get her arm engulfed and I'd wager that it burns her faster than she can regenerate. 

Sorry if I don't buy into some drunk person without knowledge of the vast majority of the Shinobi world at that time claiming she cannot be defeated in battle, even though we've seen moves that would instantly end fight with her being dead.

Even just one move being able to kill her completely voids her whole statements claim to reliability. She either said that to sound awesome or she really does believe that there are no moves that can kill her which would make her wrong.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 13, 2009)

Roka said:


> I'd say she's too slow to only get her arm engulfed and I'd wager that it burns her faster than she can regenerate.
> 
> Sorry if I don't buy into some drunk person without knowledge of the vast majority of the Shinobi world at that time claiming she cannot be defeated in battle, even though we've seen moves that would instantly end fight with her being dead.
> 
> Even just one move being able to kill her completely voids her whole statements claim to reliability. She either said that to sound awesome or she really does believe that there are no moves that can kill her which would make her wrong.



Unless Kishimoto actually shows Tsunade in a fight where her capabilities are showcased to their fullest. Then again, she's a kunoichi. In a Shounen manga?

Such wasted potential.


----------



## Neji-Hyuuga (Dec 13, 2009)

Where was it said that Sōzō Saisei can regrow limbs, or is this some fanfic


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 13, 2009)

Neji-Hyuuga said:


> Where was it said that Sōzō Saisei can regrow limbs, or is this some fanfic



I'm honestly questioning whether you read the Sannin fight part. Every post that I make, there's always a post from you asking where this happened, and "if I could just get a scan of this...", which is seriously becoming irritating.


----------



## Kai (Dec 13, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Something people always use against me.


Probably cause it's beyond reason or likelihood.



			
				Lady Tsunade said:
			
		

> The infamous "I am undefeatable in battle (when Souzou Saisei's on)", yet though she hasn't shown it, they say " No, she can die."


You'll always have difficulty getting self inflation popular among other people. What she said is subjective and would challenge all other characters and jutsu against Sozou Saisei. 

Tsukiyomi is confirmed to kill, and we don't need an illustration to make it any more or less truth. It's focused on just one issue, and that's on its capacity to kil. Kakashi and Kisame have verified it for us with no retcons, so that's all what is necessary. 

But playing the semantics game, although Tsunade says that she'll never "die", it doesn't protect her from being defeated either. 

And since statements can have such staggering ranges of difference and unpredictability, there isn't one law or fallacy that can universally satisfy. Nothing's really absolute. Though common sense is probably hands down, the greatest approach in deducting anything.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 13, 2009)

Kai said:


> Probably cause it's beyond reason or likelihood.
> 
> 
> You'll always have difficulty getting self inflation popular among other people. What she said is subjective and would challenge all other characters and jutsu against Sozou Saisei.
> ...



 Check bolded.

I'm reduced to grasping straws....


----------



## kingcools (Dec 13, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Because unlike Naruto, Tsunade's actually competent with information.  As shown when she instantly formulated a plan to counter-act Shinra Tensei with the information Chouji gave her. *And Pein even acknowleged it'd work*, but said it would be useless against an overwhelming power like Chou Shinra Tensei. She topped that too.



Source for that?


----------



## Maerala (Dec 13, 2009)

kingcools said:


> Source for that?





He notices the chakra concentrated in her feet and asks whether she's doing it to protect herself from his jutsu. Then he acknowledges that she managed to somehow learn how it works. He's essentially saying that she figured out a way to defend against his jutsu.


----------



## Neji-Hyuuga (Dec 14, 2009)

^Notice that he goes on to say, all efforts are futile agaisnt overwhelming force. Imagine what would happen if your feet are stuck to the ground and your body is being pushed back with great force


----------



## Maerala (Dec 14, 2009)

Neji-Hyuuga said:


> ^Notice that he goes on to say, all efforts are futile agaisnt overwhelming force. Imagine what would happen if your feet are stuck to the ground and your body is being pushed back with great force



But nothing _did_ happen, did it? Five seconds after Chou Shinra Tensei, Tsunade's standing firmly on the ground and her body is intact with no protection from Katsuyu. Nagato was just too conceited and he believed no one could challenge "God."


----------



## Ragormha (Dec 14, 2009)

Lady Tsunade said:


> Tsunade's statement was also backed up by Shizune. Itachi, however, is a notorious liar. His entire life was a shroud of mystery that he had to lie to protect Sasuke/Konoha. Tsunade, albeit gambling debt instances, has not been shown to lie. And as the best medic so far, I'm pretty sure she knows what she's capable of.



Then Pain is God, right? 

I'm pretty sure, LT, that you want some golden rule to apply. Something that doesn't exist.

When considering a character's statements you have to consider their bias and their knowledge at the time. CE TenTen can say Neji's Kaiten is an impenetrable absolute defence, because she's never seen it broken...and hey as far as she knows that's true.

It doesn't actually mean it is true, though. 

Likewise, Tsunade can _say_ she can't be defeated in battle, but there's a whole slew of information she isn't privy too, especially after twenty years (a generation of ninja) she has no idea about.   




Godaime Hokage said:


> But nothing _did_ happen, did it? Five seconds after Chou Shinra Tensei, Tsunade's standing firmly on the ground and her body is intact with no protection from Katsuyu. Nagato was just too conceited and he believed no one could challenge "God."





That's the next scan we see after Pain uses Shinra Tensei. She's both injured and no longer standing.


----------



## Maerala (Dec 14, 2009)

Ragormha said:


> That's the next scan we see after Pain uses Shinra Tensei. She's both injured and no longer standing.



I meant to say that she was still in one piece and still on the ground unlike Neji suggested, seeming to think that Chou Shinra Tensei would blow your head off if you're glued to the ground.


----------



## Ragormha (Dec 14, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> I meant to say that she was still in one piece and still on the ground unlike Neji suggested, seeming to think that Chou Shinra Tensei would blow your head off if you're glued to the ground.



Oh, I thought you were implying chakra feet was a viable counter. My bad.


----------



## Highgoober (Dec 14, 2009)

I find it highly amusing that Tsunade was on the ground hurt despite her _counter_ but the ANBU guy was standing and unscathed without any protection from Katsuya.

That ANBU guy must have some crazy power.


----------



## kingcools (Dec 14, 2009)

Godaime Hokage said:


> He notices the chakra concentrated in her feet and asks whether she's doing it to protect herself from his jutsu. Then he acknowledges that she managed to somehow learn how it works. He's essentially saying that she figured out a way to defend against his jutsu.



nowhere does this mean he admits it works. He just asks her if she does that for defence against his jutsu, without, in any way, admitting it would work


----------



## Canute87 (Dec 14, 2009)

I think Tsunade can break out of any Genjutsu itachi throws at her.


----------



## Creator (Dec 14, 2009)

Canute87 said:


> I think Tsunade can break out of any Genjutsu itachi throws at her.



I agree with this.


----------



## Highgoober (Dec 14, 2009)

Canute87 said:


> I think Tsunade can break out of any Genjutsu itachi throws at her.





Creator said:


> I agree with this.



She'd need to use Kai to break the genjutsu and Tsukiyomi does not leave the opponent time to make any sort of defence. Apart from that she'd probably be pretty capable but it still doesn't happen instantly and Kage Bunshins could quite happily assail her whilst she's breaking out of regular genjutsu.


----------



## `Monster (Dec 14, 2009)

Tsunade can break out of the genjustu most likely.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 14, 2009)

I think she could break out of Itachi's regular Genjutsu.

However, something similar to what happened to Orochimaru would occur. Whilst she's in the process of breaking out, Itachi could simply chop her hand off. Or just kill her.


----------



## Vergil642 (Dec 14, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think she could break out of Itachi's regular Genjutsu.
> 
> However, something similar to what happened to Orochimaru would occur. Whilst she's in the process of breaking out, Itachi could simply chop her hand off. Or just kill her.



I'd basically agree with this. She could certainly resist something like Kasegui no Jutsu, not necessarily break out (alas, Oro didn't ever actually manage it, so we can't say for sure he would've, though it makes the matter a questionable one) but more crucially Itachi would off her before she succeeds.


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 14, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think she could break out of Itachi's regular Genjutsu.
> 
> However, something similar to what happened to Orochimaru would occur. Whilst she's in the process of breaking out, Itachi could simply chop her hand off. Or just kill her.



At least some common sense +reps


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 14, 2009)

Well. Time to actually input my thoughts into this thread.

*Itachi wins. With moderate difficulty at most.

*IC, Itachi normally starts fights off with his Genjutsu. Like I stated a few posts ago, I believe Tsunade will at least be able to resist the Genjutsu, similar to that of Orochimaru. But she will suffer the same fate, she won't be able to counter it before Itachi manages to close the distance and chop a limb off. Theres also the fact that she's less adept in Genjutsu than her former fellow Sannin. Also, if Tsunade manages to avoid(not counter, avoid) the Genjutsu, I doubt she would hit Itachi. Itachi has shown to monuver extremely well and is a excellent dodger, Tsunade's linear attacking pattern won't be able to hit him, not with his Sharingan and superior speed anyway. Also, if she DOES hit him, it could very well be a Karasu Bushin. From that point, two things can happen, the crows emerge and put her into a Genjutsu. Itachi comes out and kills her or the Bushin blows up and causes heavy damage.

Any of those options will cause Tsunade some lasting damage, Bushin Explosion was something to not be taken lightly(see Deidara's Bushin explosion to get a grasp of how powerful it is). If Sozo Saisei is activated, it would do more bad than good. Since eventhough she is, essenstially invincible while in that state, she STILL won't be able to hit him and once the effects wears off. She is screwed.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 14, 2009)

Ragormha said:


> Then Pain is God, right?



We know God was back-talked by a certain kunoichi. :ho



> I'm pretty sure, LT, that you want some golden rule to apply. Something that doesn't exist.



I don't want some "golden rule" to be applied. People use the logic "she hasn't shown it, so she doesn't have it despite her statement", but when I use it against them, it's suddenly not fair game.



> When considering a character's statements you have to consider their bias and their knowledge at the time. CE TenTen can say Neji's Kaiten is an impenetrable absolute defence, because she's never seen it broken...and hey as far as she knows that's true.
> 
> It doesn't actually mean it is true, though.
> 
> Likewise, Tsunade can _say_ she can't be defeated in battle, but there's a whole slew of information she isn't privy too, especially after twenty years (a generation of ninja) she has no idea about.



Fair enough, but for the information she does have knowledge on, she remains invincible to those.  I find it hard to believe that a 50+ kunoichi who's been through wars and such wouldn't have a good bit of info under her belt, and know that Souzou Saisei trumps them all. But for the ones she doesn't know, it's debatable whether she could tank it with Souzou Saisei. Alaas, we won't see how far it can go without another fight.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm surprised this thread is still going on, when theres not much to back it up. Itachi traps tsunade in a genjutsu itachi comes in and either chops off her hand so she can't break the genjutsu or kills her. But let's go down the path as if she avoided (AVOIDED not RELEASED) the genjutsu, then she runs up to hit itachi, and either she hits him and its a kage bunshin, it's an exploding clone, or he dodges her. If it were a kage bunshin or if he dodged her then he attacks her with amaterasu or a katon or a kunai. Honestly I don't see how tsunade could win this as easily as some people (Creator, and Lady Tsunade) claim she could. And tsunade is a legendary ninja because of her medical ninjutsu, that doesn't defend well against an uchiha prodigy that slayed his entire clan overnight.


----------



## Naruto1992Lover (Dec 31, 2009)

Itachi wins the fight by prisioning Tsunade on a MS Genjutsu, as we've never saw or knew that she could break Genjutsus, and Itachi's ones are fantastic


----------



## Maerala (Dec 31, 2009)

I've been inclined to believe that Itachi wins throughout this whole thread, but I do have to say that no common genjutsu _should_ work on Tsunade if she's prepared. By prepared, I mean having a palm-sized version of Katsuyu stick to her shoulder and inject her with chakra should she ever be trapped in an illusion. Unless, of course, Itachi uses Tsukuyomi, in which case, I doubt Katsuyu will be fast enough, as that technique is near-instantenous.


----------



## Federer (Dec 31, 2009)

Gotta go with my man Itachi here. 

Tsukuyomi > Tsunade. 

Even Shi (a sensor) couldn't move after getting cought by (MS) genjutsu, from Sasuke, who's not as good as Itachi in *casting* genjutsu. 

Sensors have very impressive chakra control, Karin and Ao might be top notch. Katsuyu is not a big deal here too. Even summons can be affected by genjutsu, add in the fact that Itachi can create a shadow clone to keep Katsuyu busy, there's no worries for him, here. 

Kinda stupid, that a restricted Itachi can still beat one of the Densetsu no Sannin, it's just shows us once again, that Tsunade doesn't have the feats that "fit" to her title. 

Unfortunately, Tsunade gets comatosed.


----------



## Demonx3 (Dec 31, 2009)

itachi will win. with his sharigan and even if its on the great naruto bridge he will use susano and tsunade will lose.


----------



## Soul (Dec 31, 2009)

Canute87 said:


> I think Tsunade can break out of any Genjutsu itachi throws at her.



I am quoting this shit 



Creator said:


> I agree with this.


----------



## Creator (Dec 31, 2009)

Creator said:


> I really dislike threads like these, as i alway get negged and it alway tends to be spite threads against Tsunade and threads which let Itachi fans wank over his genjutsu.





TheYellowFlash10 said:


>



I am sorry if you expected more from me in this thread, but i made my opinion on this thread and match heard in the first page. 

And i dont take it back. I stand by it.


----------



## Katana King (Dec 31, 2009)

I think a better fight would have been Itachi w/o sharingan 

Tsunade really has no counter for his sharingan genjutsu and tsukuyomi


----------



## Yang Wenli (Dec 31, 2009)

Itachi wins. Tsunade won't be able to break Tsukiyomi, and clone explosions will nuke Katsuyu. He might throw in Amaterasu for good measure, but that would be overkill.


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

Itachi would genjutsu-brainwash Tsunade. Then Itachi would stick a glass peanut butter jar up Tsunade's ass and hit it with a hammer. That'll think that would've finished this fight. Even though he didn't manage to bumb on her OhSoGodlyBoobs.


----------



## Shizune (Dec 31, 2009)

I think this is a very even match.

With full knowledge, Tsunade should immediately summon Katsuyu and avoid eye contact (which won't be difficult from atop the giant slug on the extremely misty bridge). Even if he does catch her in Tsukiyomi, she can simply heal it away like she did for Kakashi and Sasuke. Itachi is going to have to flee to the water to avoid the acid slime, which will span the width of the bridge. From there, what can he do? Long range katons/suitons? It's doubtful if they'll even reach Tsunade atop Katsuyu, but if they do, Katsuyu can meld with her and block the damage, or she can simply heal it. If Itachi tries to close in on Tsunade, it'll become harder for him to avoid the waves of acid slime.
If necessary, smaller Katsuyus can also break off to stall Itachi with their own slime.

I believe Tsunade is extremely well equipped to deal with Itachi and has an extremely good chance at winning-- I daresay 6-7/10 times.


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

Tsunade had trouble with Orochimaru while being teamed up with Jiraiya. Itachi beat Orochimaru on his 13th with merely a simple kunai.

Says enough.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Shizazzle said:


> From there, what can he do? Long range katons/suitons?



_Karasu Bunshins_ and _Karasu Genjutsu_ may still end it.


----------



## Shizune (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> _Karasu Bunshins_ and _Karasu Genjutsu_ may still end it.



His Karasu illusion will be sniped down with acid slime.

If everything goes wrong, Tsunade can simply release her seal and start over again. To push her to this point, Itachi will already have had to work very hard and pull out lots of clever tricks; she can just outlast him.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

I agree with the Tsunade advocates on this match. Where's Suu?


----------



## Maerala (Dec 31, 2009)

Genjutsu won't work if she keeps a palm-sized Katsuyu within her clothes like she did during Pain's invasion.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

itachi has genjutsu, he has a massive speed advantage over her and he has sharingan, he also is one of the smartest shinobi in the naruto series definetly much smarter then tsunade.
itachi stomps in this scenerio, i cant ever see tsunade beating itachi.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 1, 2010)

It's pretty much consensus that Itachi's one stumbling block is stamina- something Tsunade trumps everyone short of jinchuriiki in. With her forehead seal, her threshold for lethal wounds, and her medical ninjutsu she's not going to down very fast or getting 'blitzed.'

It's also consensus that his major strengths are his sharingan, genjutsu, and general speed.

...

The location and restrictions negate the majority of these. It'll be too foggy to see (or see well at least), with knowledge he loses any tiny chance he had of catching Tsunade in genjutsu (though she could quite easily break out of them), and it would be pure folly to try and tangle with Tsunade in close-range. 

Susan'oo and Amaterasu are to valuable weapons that shouldn't be forgotten, but Tsunade is easily going to outlast Itachi. The second he pulls out a taxing or 'lethal' attack and Tsunade either dodges, heals, or tanks it- he's effed.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

I love how people are just coming in and saying "Itachi is badass, he wins" without even bothering to give some reasoning or read ours.

In my post I forgot to include that Katsuyu will break Tsunade out of genjutsu. Essentially, Tsunade has several big advantages here while he has almost none.



Illusory said:


> I agree with the Tsunade advocates on this match. Where's Suu?



Suu doesn't bother with debates involving Uchihas. Who can blame her?

But then again, I haven't seen Suu on lately.


----------



## Panos (Jan 1, 2010)

Basically why is this still up. Tsunade has no answer to Tsukuyomi or anything Genjutsu related.


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

^^She was able to heal Kakashi's and Sasuke's mental damage with impressive ease.Plus she has Sozosaisei.
And She's the greatest medic in the world,meaning she has the best chakra control around,which would also mean she's immune to basic genjutsu to some extent.


----------



## Panos (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^She was able to heal Kakashi's and Sasuke's mental damage with impressive ease.Plus she has Sozosaisei.
> And She's the greatest medic in the world,meaning she has the best chakra control around,which would also mean she's immune to basic genjutsu to some extent.



Basic Genjutsu?  Oro was shown to be a much more efficient Genjutsu user yet he was wtfpwnd by an eleven yers old Itachi who had no inent to kill him. Tsunade will be raped mentally at first and then physically.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Basically why is this still up. Tsunade has no answer to Tsukuyomi or anything Genjutsu related.



Despite the fact that she won't be making eye contact to allow for Tsukiyomi (and even if she did she can heal it), and Katsuyu can break her out of other genjutsu.



Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Basic Genjutsu?  Oro was shown to be a much more efficient Genjutsu user yet he was wtfpwnd by an eleven yers old Itachi who had no inent to kill him. Tsunade will be raped mentally at first and then physically.



You just restated your disproven point.


----------



## Panos (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Despite the fact that she won't be making eye contact to allow for Tsukiyomi (and even if she did she can heal it), and Katsuyu can break her out of other genjutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> You just restated your disproven point.



What? Tsunade will not make eye contact? Since when can she fight like that? As far as i remember only Gai can do that. If she is hit she gets raped. 

And Katsuyu will get Genjutsued too. If she understands that Tsunade is Genjutsued.


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Basic Genjutsu?  Oro was shown to be a much more efficient Genjutsu user yet he was wtfpwnd by an eleven yers old Itachi who had no inent to kill him. Tsunade will be raped mentally at first and then physically.



How is she genjutsu'd,when she has the greatest control over her chakra in the world,plus she has Katsuyu(and mini katsuyu)as external source of chakra


----------



## Panos (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> How is she genjutsu'd,when she has the greatest control over her chakra in the world,plus she has Katsuyu(and mini katsuyu)as external source of chakra



Since when does she summon that Slug thing immediatly?

Kakashi who had Sharingan was pwned. Oro who is the only one with 5 in Genjutsu along with Itachi was pwned by an eleven years old Itachi. Tsunade will be raped by basic Genjutsu.

If she breaks out of it(something that would contradict manga) she would get killed by Tsukuyomi.

Well if Itachi wants to have fun he will not use Genjutsu but he will play around with clones, speed blitz.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

It's funny how Tsunade fans think that with strenght and stamina,Tsunade can win:

1.Strenght:do u think that Tsunade can land a hit on Itachi??
2.Stamina:In all his fights,Itachi was the one who had less stamina,and guess what,he always won.

And those Tsunade fans are really funny,Oro who is like 100000000000 times superior to Tsunade was raped by itachi

Here is how it goes:let's imagine Tsunade magically knew how to avoid eye contact with Itachi,Itachi uses a karasu bunshin to force her to make eye contact like he did with Sasuke,if she magically don't look at his eyes,Itachi amaterasu her ass and neither genesis rebirth nor anything will help her against this(the flames keep burning her until her genesis rebirth is off)


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

And Tsunade would simply dodge.
Seriously,i don't even know wher did the 'speedblitz' thing come from,Itachi never speedblitzed anyone,even Kurenai reacted to his assault.
And having the greatest chakra control in the world means you have tools to break from genjutsu by yourself,as stated by Jiraiya.


----------



## Panos (Jan 1, 2010)

Amaterasu is banned. 



Nagatosama said:


> And Tsunade would simply dodge.
> Seriously,i don't even know wher did the 'speedblitz' thing come from,Itachi never speedblitzed anyone,even Kurenai reacted to his assault.
> And having the greatest chakra control in the world means you have tools to break from genjutsu by yourself,as stated by Jiraiya.



What? Read the manga and watch the fight against Kakashi. -Negged-


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> And Tsunade would simply dodge.
> Seriously,i don't even know wher did the 'speedblitz' thing come from,Itachi never speedblitzed anyone,even Kurenai reacted to his assault.
> And having the greatest chakra control in the world means you have tools to break from genjutsu by yourself,as stated by Jiraiya.



Greatest chakra control in the world?? what's with this shit??

C who has a great chakra control was raped by a sharingan genjutsu


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

^^She the greatest medic in nthe woeld,and medics have great chakra control,so we can assume she has the greatest chakra control in the world.
BTW,who told u C had great chakra control??
PS P.U:thx for the neg


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^She the greatest medic in nthe woeld,and medics have great chakra control,so we can assume she has the greatest chakra control in the world.
> BTW,who told u C had great chakra control??
> PS P.U:thx for the neg



 what's this fucking logic?

Who told you that a medic has more chakra control than a sensing type shinobi 
Man,stop trolling and use evidence.
C has great chakra control because he is a sensing type shinobi.


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

^^I never said it was true,i said we can 'assume' she has great chakra control.
How did u know Sensing type shinobi have great chakra control?


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^I never said it was true,i said we can 'assume' she has great chakra control.
> How did u know Sensing type shinobi have great chakra control?



They can easily hide their won chakra without any problem,they can sense other chakra's shinobi......great chakra control


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

^^Manga page.?
At least with medic shinobi,we have manga proof:ho


----------



## Soul (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> She was able to heal Kakashi's and Sasuke's mental damage with impressive ease.



Is that your reasoning?
So...since Tsunade cured the effect from Tsukuyomi a week after Kakashi got fucked by it, she is immune to it?
That is nonsense.



> Plus she has Sozosaisei.



Firstly, I doubt that Tsunade uses Sozo Saisei before being affected by Tsukuyomi; and after that she won't have enough time/energy to do it.

She won't tank that, with or without Sozo Saisei.



> And She's the greatest medic in the world,meaning she has the best chakra control around



That isn't necessarily true.



> which would also mean she's immune to basic genjutsu to some extent.



Good theory; but, do you have proof?


----------



## SharinganSkill (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> And Tsunade would simply dodge.
> Seriously,i don't even know wher did the 'speedblitz' thing come from,Itachi never speedblitzed anyone,even Kurenai reacted to his assault.
> And having the greatest chakra control in the world means you have tools to break from genjutsu by yourself,as stated by Jiraiya.



Ah, Itachi has never "speedblitzed" anyone  damn, I should have known that. I know it´s pretty cool these days saying Itachi would lose every match, cause you can have fun with those "Itachi tards who are so biased". But the truth is most of them just speak the truth, because most of the time Itachi faces a weaker opponent, like here for example.

I dont say he would defeat Pein, but this. Tsunade´s one of the best matchups for Itachi from those top rated guys. 

Now some facts for you, mr... You dont even know where the "speedblitz" thing came from and Tsunade would dodge it of course, right? You should start reading manga from the biginning again. Do you know what the sharingan is? It allows you to predict your opponent´s moves. So if two opponents (same speed) face each other, the one with sharingan can hit his opponent and the other one cant (dont include any hax thing please, this is just talking about sharingan only, regardles of the abilites of any other shinobi, that will come later). Ever heard about the technique called the Raikiri? Point of that technique is that your opponent cant dodge it, because you´ll see his movement with sharingan  that´s why it´s S-classed.

So do you know what will happen if two opponents face and the faster one has a sharingan? Tsunade´s chance of hitting Itachi is equal zero  What´s the point of having such power when you cant hit your opponent? And Tsunade absolutely cant dodge the attack of a faster opponent who predicts her moves 

And if you´re going to talk about Kurenai dodging anything, can I just tell you Itachi didnt want to hurt anyone there? Yeah you dont believe it, I forgot  so have a nice day having fun with biased Itachi fans


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 1, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> It's pretty much consensus that Itachi's one stumbling block is stamina- something Tsunade trumps everyone short of jinchuriiki in. With her forehead seal, her threshold for lethal wounds, and her medical ninjutsu she's not going to down very fast or getting 'blitzed.'



He still did pretty well in his fight against Sasuke. He made a Karasu Bushin for Naruto and Genjutsu'd Naruto before his fight. Then in his fight against Sasuke he did multiple layers of Genjutsu, one Kage Bushin, then another to block Sasuke's Shuriken, Tsukuyomi, Gourkakayuu, Amaterasu, Gourkakyuu to avoid Sasuke's Chidori then finally his Susanoo.




> The location and restrictions negate the majority of these. It'll be too foggy to see (or see well at least), with knowledge he loses any tiny chance he had of catching Tsunade in genjutsu (though she could quite easily break out of them), and it would be pure folly to try and tangle with Tsunade in close-range.



I'm pretty sure the Sharingan's Genjutsu effects were only blocked by Zabuza's mist. If I read the OP correctly, this is natural mist. Also if the Sharingan is affected, wouldn't Tsunade be too? And this mist doesn't stop Bushin feints from happening either. 



> Susan'oo and Amaterasu are to valuable weapons that shouldn't be forgotten, but Tsunade is easily going to outlast Itachi. The second he pulls out a taxing or 'lethal' attack and Tsunade either dodges, heals, or tanks it- he's effed.



Lol. Lol. Lol. Dodge, heal or tank Susanoo's sword or Amaterasu? Lol.

Dodge Susano'o sword I can understand, but Amaterasu? For something like Amaterasu, you need something other than good dodging abilities. You need very good speed, something Tsunade hasn't got, Sasuke had very high speed and was still caught.

Heal from Susanoo...? It tore a massive hole through Orochimaru's chest, I don't care if Tsunade is awesome at Medical jutsu but she isn't healing that with normal Medical jutsu. She needs Sozo Saisei. Even then she's going to get Genjutsu'd by the sword. And she isn't going to heal from Amaterasu with normal Medical jutsu either, I shouldn't even have to explain this.

And no, you don't tank Susanoo or Amaterasu. You don't tank getting your chest torn through by a sword then getting trapped in the strongest Genjutsu ever. Amaterasu...I shouldn't even have to explain.



Shizazzle said:


> I love how people are just coming in and saying "Itachi is badass, he wins" without even bothering to give some reasoning or read ours.



I did read yours. A few were good, however some just didn't make sense or were clearly biased.

In my post I forgot to include that Katsuyu will break Tsunade out of genjutsu. Essentially, Tsunade has several big advantages here while he has almost none.[/quote]



Shizazzle said:


> Suu doesn't bother with debates involving Uchihas. Who can blame her?



If your going to bash someone's fandom, at least do it right. Suu's a guy.




Shizazzle said:


> Despite the fact that she won't be making eye contact to allow for Tsukiyomi (and even if she did she can heal it), and Katsuyu can break her out of other genjutsu.



Lol, I know she could do it. But would she know she's in a Genjutsu and would she do it fast enough for Itachi to do some damage? Probably not.



Nagatosama said:


> How is she genjutsu'd,when she has the greatest control over her chakra in the world,plus she has Katsuyu(and mini katsuyu)as external source of chakra



No she doesn't. She's merely the greatest Medic in the world and being a Medic simply requires great Chakra control. She's certainly one of the best but not the best.

And Katsuyu shouldn't pose much or a problem. Could she do it before Itachi did some damage?


----------



## Creator (Jan 1, 2010)

Illusory said:


> I agree with the Tsunade advocates on this match. Where's Suu?



He does not take part in battles where an Uchiha is involved. Clearly he understood that debating with an Uchiha is impossible since they alway have 'Lolz genjutsu'. 

I should learn that aswell.


----------



## ? (Jan 1, 2010)

itachi wins.

even if tsunade tries to look away from itachi's eyes or fingers, which is harder than it sounds, she has no way to read his handseals and can easily fall for an exploding bunshin.


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Good theory; but, do you have proof?



If all else fails, she can get a palm-sized clone of Katsuyu, seep it into her robes like she did during Pain's invasion, and get it to inject her with some chakra should she fall prey to a genjutsu.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 1, 2010)

Itachi takes this.

Tsunade has no way to break through Susanoo. And Itachi knows hes fighting a Sannin. Hes more than likely to use it.On top of that Itachi is much faster than Tsunade. And using his sharingan he can dodge most of Lady Tsunades attacks. The only way Tsunade can really hit Itachi is with Katsuyu. Acid Slime Bombs are very wide range. Therefore very difficult to dodge. However Summoning takes time. And with Itachis speed, I dont think he'll make Summoning Katsuyu easy for her. 

In any case if Tsunade does Summon Katsuyu. Itachi will probably use Susanoo to protect him from attacks. Susanoo cant take Katsuyu though, thanks to her multiplying abilities. So for how long he can use I dont know. In any case,its more likely that Itachi wins.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Since when does she summon that Slug thing immediatly?



I love this argument.

Alright, so in her first fight against Kabuto, she didn't summon Katsuyu immediately. Let's look at the reasons.


She had blood-o-phobia and therefore could not draw blood to summon Katsuyu.

She was, as far as she knew, up against a single person, who was not hyped to be anything special.

She was in a blind rage.

They began fighting in a town.

The most important one is that she physically could not due to her phobia.

However, after recovering, she immediatly summoned Katsuyu. Later, when Pein invaded, her first course of action was to summon Katsuyu. Seems that she does rely on Katsuyu in dangerous situations, aye? And this will be no different, especially since she knows she's up against someone as skilled as Itachi.



Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Kakashi who had Sharingan was pwned. Oro who is the only one with 5 in Genjutsu along with Itachi was pwned by an eleven years old Itachi. Tsunade will be raped by basic Genjutsu.



For the love of god...

This would be because both Kakashi and Orochimaru made eye contact, could not heal themselves from the mental trauma, and did not have external sources to break them out of genjutsu. Tsunade has all the counters to his technique.



Peaceful Uchiha said:


> If she breaks out of it(something that would contradict manga) she would get killed by Tsukuyomi.



Katsuyu is an external chakra source. It's actually extremely cannon that she can break Tsunade out of genjutsu, who will in turn not be making eye contact from atop a giant slug on an extremely misty bridge.



Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Well if Itachi wants to have fun he will not use Genjutsu but he will play around with clones, speed blitz.



Let's see what Acid Slime has to say about that.



godtachi said:


> It's funny how Tsunade fans think that with strenght and stamina,Tsunade can win:
> 
> 1.Strenght:do u think that Tsunade can land a hit on Itachi??



No, she probably won't be engaging him in taijutsu.



godtachi said:


> 2.Stamina:In all his fights,Itachi was the one who had less stamina,and guess what,he always won.



Because he has yet to face someone with ridiculously high stamina, chakra, pain threshold and healing.



godtachi said:


> And those Tsunade fans are really funny,Oro who is like 100000000000 times superior to Tsunade was raped by itachi



Orochimaru got caught in a genjutsu, which he had nothing to counter with. That is not and will not be the case with Tsunade.



godtachi said:


> Here is how it goes:let's imagine Tsunade magically knew how to avoid eye contact with Itachi,



Full knowledge is full. 



godtachi said:


> Itachi uses a karasu bunshin to force her to make eye contact like he did with Sasuke,



And Katsuyu breaks her out of the genjutsu.



godtachi said:


> if she magically don't look at his eyes,



She won't, because his genjutsu will have been dispelled.



godtachi said:


> Itachi amaterasu her ass and neither genesis rebirth nor anything will help her against this(the flames keep burning her until her genesis rebirth is off)



Except Amaterasu was banned. Way to make your argument seem intelligent. 




godtachi said:


> what's this fucking logic?
> 
> Who told you that a medic has more chakra control than a sensing type shinobi
> Man,stop trolling and use evidence.
> C has great chakra control because he is a sensing type shinobi.



The greatest medic in the world who can heal and protect thousands of people at a time. Do I really need to say more?


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Is that your reasoning?
> So...since Tsunade cured the effect from Tsukuyomi a week after Kakashi got fucked by it, she is immune to it?
> That is nonsense.



No, she simply won't be making eye contact at this distance on an extremely misty bridge from atop a giant slug when she knows to avoid eye contact.

Furthermore, we simply mean that Tsukuyomi will have little effect even if she is hit by it because she can heal the mental trauma caused by it.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Firstly, I doubt that Tsunade uses Sozo Saisei before being affected by Tsukuyomi; and after that she won't have enough time/energy to do it.
> 
> She won't tank that, with or without Sozo Saisei.



Sozo Saisei is irrelevant as far as Tsukuyomi is concerned. It's basic healing that will heal the damage away. Furthermore, she is not making eye contact.



SharinganSkill said:


> *Ah, Itachi has never "speedblitzed" anyone*





SharinganSkill said:


> I dont say he would defeat Pein, but this. Tsunade´s one of the best matchups for Itachi from those top rated guys.



Actually, she's one of the worst, and this is the worst location for him. Why? Because she is extremely well equipped to avoid eye contact, which the mist reinforces, and she has an outside force to dispel his genjutsu. Furthermore, she can heal anything he can do. If worst comes to worst she can release her seal and basically start the fight over, whereas he will have had to done a lot to push her to that point.



SharinganSkill said:


> Now some facts for you, mr... You dont even know where the "speedblitz" thing came from and Tsunade would dodge it of course, right? You should start reading manga from the biginning again. Do you know what the sharingan is? It allows you to predict your opponent´s moves. So if two opponents (same speed) face each other, the one with sharingan can hit his opponent and the other one cant (dont include any hax thing please, this is just talking about sharingan only, regardles of the abilites of any other shinobi, that will come later). Ever heard about the technique called the Raikiri? Point of that technique is that your opponent cant dodge it, because you´ll see his movement with sharingan  that´s why it´s S-classed.



If Itachi attempts to blitz, he'll be running headfirst into the first blast of acid slime. Tsunade is not stupid, she will not allow him to get close, and she will open with Katsuyu.



SharinganSkill said:


> So do you know what will happen if two opponents face and the faster one has a sharingan? Tsunade´s chance of hitting Itachi is equal zero  What´s the point of having such power when you cant hit your opponent? And Tsunade absolutely cant dodge the attack of a faster opponent who predicts her moves



Taijutsu is irrelevant. I love how you're not bothering to address Katsuyu, which is Itachi's major downfall in this fight.



SharinganSkill said:


> And if you´re going to talk about Kurenai dodging anything, can I just tell you Itachi didnt want to hurt anyone there? Yeah you dont believe it, I forgot  so have a nice day having fun with biased Itachi fans



An attack is still an attack. One that Kurenai had ample time to react to.



Atlantic Storm said:


> He still did pretty well in his fight against Sasuke. He made a Karasu Bushin for Naruto and Genjutsu'd Naruto before his fight. Then in his fight against Sasuke he did multiple layers of Genjutsu, one Kage Bushin, then another to block Sasuke's Shuriken, Tsukuyomi, Gourkakayuu, Amaterasu, Gourkakyuu to avoid Sasuke's Chidori then finally his Susanoo.



Except all this genjutsu has been dispelled by Katsuyu. Really, all this "genjutsu rapes" is getting very annoying.



Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm pretty sure the Sharingan's Genjutsu effects were only blocked by Zabuza's mist. If I read the OP correctly, this is natural mist. Also if the Sharingan is affected, wouldn't Tsunade be too? And this mist doesn't stop Bushin feints from happening either.



The mist won't be doing much more than making eye contact difficult. On top of this, Tsunade knows not to make eye contact and will be atop Katsuyu. It won't be difficult. Bunshin feints will be rather useless in the face of giant waves of acid.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Lol. Lol. Lol. Dodge, heal or tank Susanoo's sword or Amaterasu? Lol.
> 
> Dodge Susano'o sword I can understand, but Amaterasu? For something like Amaterasu, you need something other than good dodging abilities. You need very good speed, something Tsunade hasn't got, Sasuke had very high speed and was still caught.
> 
> ...



Nice waste of text here. Seems neither side is bothering to read the OP, where Susanoo and Amaterasu are very clearly banned.



Atlantic Storm said:


> I did read yours. A few were good, however some just didn't make sense or were clearly biased.



What you didn't read was the OP.



Atlantic Storm said:


> If your going to bash someone's fandom, at least do it right. Suu's a guy.



I wasn't bashing anything.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Lol, I know she could do it. But would she know she's in a Genjutsu and would she do it fast enough for Itachi to do some damage? Probably not.



Full knowledge is full. 



Atlantic Storm said:


> And Katsuyu shouldn't pose much or a problem. Could she do it before Itachi did some damage?



Katsuyu is the number one problem. She's why Itachi cannot get close or catch Tsunade in genjutsu.



Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Itachi takes this.
> 
> Tsunade has no way to break through Susanoo. And Itachi knows hes fighting a Sannin. Hes more than likely to use it.On top of that Itachi is much faster than Tsunade. And using his sharingan he can dodge most of Lady Tsunades attacks. The only way Tsunade can really hit Itachi is with Katsuyu. Acid Slime Bombs are very wide range. Therefore very difficult to dodge. However Summoning takes time. And with Itachis speed, I dont think he'll make Summoning Katsuyu easy for her.



What is with you people and not reading the OP?

Amaterasu and Susanoo are banned.



Gondaime Tsunade said:


> In any case if Tsunade does Summon Katsuyu. Itachi will probably use Susanoo to protect him from attacks. Susanoo cant take Katsuyu though, thanks to her multiplying abilities. So for how long he can use I dont know. In any case,its more likely that Itachi wins.



Tsunade will summon Katsuyu. Itachi cannot use Susanoo.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Oh now,here is Tsunade's new arguments:
1.she magically can avoid itachi's eyes like Gai(who trained a lot to obtain good results).And can avoid eye contact even if itachi forces her(like naruto in the forest).
2.Tsunade can summon Katsuyu and will magically stick to her so that it dispels tsukiyomi,despite .
3.Tsunade won't engage Itachi in taijutsu,so how is she gonna win??By staying there??
4.Tsunade(without katsuyu) should fare better than Oro against genjutsu,nice fanfic here
5.Tsunade has the greatest chakra control in the world,which is literally stupid.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Oh now,here is Tsunade's new arguments:
> 1.she magically can avoid itachi's eyes like Gai(who trained a lot to obtain good results).And can avoid eye contact even if itachi forces her(like naruto in the forest).



Yes, she can. She's not fighting CQC like Gai would, so it will be far easier. She's at a distance. There's a lot of mist. She's on top of an extremely tall, thick slug. Avoiding eye contact will be extremely easy.



godtachi said:


> 2.Tsunade can summon Katsuyu and will magically stick to her so that it dispels tsukiyomi,despite .



I never said Katsuyu can break her out of Tsuikyomi, I said Tsunade will not make eye contact and fall to it in the first place. And even if she did (which she won't) she can heal from it.



godtachi said:


> 3.Tsunade won't engage Itachi in taijutsu,so how is she gonna win??By staying there??



Itachi has low stamina, and he'll have no choice but to constantly shift from the water to the bridge, spamming suitons and katons and always staying on his toes to avoid the acid slime.



godtachi said:


> 4.Tsunade(without katsuyu) should fare better than Oro against genjutsu,nice fanfic here



I never said that, I said that Katsuyu is the reason that Tsunade will not have to deal with genjutsu.



godtachi said:


> 5.Tsunade has the greatest chakra control in the world,which is literally stupid.



Again, I never said that. She has amazing chakra control, but surely there's better.

Are you only reading half my post or something? I covered all of this several times.


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Oh now,here is Tsunade's new arguments:
> 1.she magically can avoid itachi's eyes like Gai(who trained a lot to obtain good results).And can avoid eye contact even if itachi forces her(like naruto in the forest).
> 2.Tsunade can summon Katsuyu and will magically stick to her so that it dispels tsukiyomi,despite .
> 3.Tsunade won't engage Itachi in taijutsu,so how is she gonna win??By staying there??
> ...



1.Gai is not the genius type,u know,he could've trained a lot,but Tsunade could achive the same results in less time.Though i agree it's pure speculation.
2.He never tried the method,so i guess what he said is irrelevant.
3.leveling the ground,finding openeings to engage him in tai,then rapes him.
4.Why not,she has great control over her chakra.
5.Why not??again pure speculation.
The problem with Tsunade is that she never had a proper fight,the only way to judge her fighting abilities is consequently speculation,Itachi,on the other hand,went all out against sasuke,so we know all of his jutsu and his fighting style.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> 1.Gai is not the genius type,u know,he could've trained a lot,but Tsunade could achive the same results in less time.Though i agree it's pure speculation.



You're mistaken here. Tsunade isn't going to be able to engage Itachi in CQC without making eye contact. However, with full knowledge this won't be an issue for her.



Nagatosama said:


> 2.He never tried the method,so i guess what he said is irrelevant.



Katsuyu cannot break her out of Tsukiyomi.



Nagatosama said:


> 3.leveling the ground,finding openeings to engage him in tai,then rapes him.



Thank god you're not Tsunade's strategist. If she gets close to him like this she will be genjutsu raped. She needs to, and will, stay atop Katsuyu, protect/heal herself from his attacks and wait for him to tire out and get destroyed by acid slime. She is intelligent and analytical, she will know this is the best course of action and proceed accordingly.



Nagatosama said:


> 4.Why not,she has great control over her chakra.
> 5.Why not??again pure speculation.



It's ridiculous to say that Tsunade has the best control in the world, or that she can break genjutsu simply by fluctuating her chakra. Stop making our side look bad.



Nagatosama said:


> The problem with Tsunade is that she never had a proper fight,the only way to judge her fighting abilities is consequently speculation,Itachi,on the other hand,went all out against sasuke,so we know all of his jutsu and his fighting style.



No, we know plenty about Tsunade right now. No speculation is necessary.


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

^^I'm not in your side.
And you keep contradicting yourself in each post you make,so pleasz stop giving me advices on the way i should post.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^I'm not in your side.
> And you keep contradicting yourself in each post you make,so pleasz stop giving me advices on the way i should post.



It's easy to tell someone they contradict themselves and try to convince them that, therefore, their posts are meaningless and they should stop posting.

What's difficult is pointing out where the hell I'm being self-contradictory.

-snip-


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> You're mistaken here. Tsunade isn't going to be able to engage Itachi in CQC without making eye contact. However, with full knowledge this won't be an issue for her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just so ya know,I absoloutly 100% agree with everything you have posted.And I am starting to side with Tsunade now. But I still do not know how Tsunade gets past Susanoo. Or where she gets the time to Summon Katsuyu?


----------



## αce (Jan 1, 2010)

> Lies and slander.




No but seriously, Tsunade doesn't get past any of the MS techniques. None of them.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Just so ya know,I absoloutly 100% agree with everything you have posted.And I am starting to side with Tsunade now. But I still do not know how Tsunade gets past Susanoo. Or where she gets the time to Summon Katsuyu?



Susanoo, along with Amaterasu, is banned.

Summoning Katsuyu, like any other summon, takes no time. She bites her thumb, places it on the ground and bam, it's summoned. See how long it takes you to do that (except allow for the fact that biting their thumb to the point of drawing blood is no big deal to them and can be does very quickly and easily).



♠Ace♠ said:


> No but seriously, Tsunade doesn't get past any of the MS techniques. None of them.



I've covered Tsukiyomi multiple times. Go read my many posts on the last page. The other MS techniques are banned.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Yes, she can. She's not fighting CQC like Gai would, so it will be far easier. She's at a distance. There's a lot of mist. She's on top of an extremely tall, thick slug. Avoiding eye contact will be extremely easy.


We saw in the sanin fight that Jiriaya could climb on Oro's summon and fight on it,Itachi can obviously do it.


Shizazzle said:


> I never said Katsuyu can break her out of Tsuikyomi, I said Tsunade will not make eye contact and fall to it in the first place. And even if she did (which she won't) she can heal from it.


When Itachi gets on Katsuyu and faces Tsnade,he can force her to look into his eyes(like he did with sassuke and naruto,who had full knowledge on how to fight sharingan).And how can Tsunade heal from Tsukiyomi when she wouldn't even be able to lift a finger??


Shizazzle said:


> Itachi has low stamina, and he'll have no choice but to constantly shift from the water to the bridge, spamming suitons and katons and always staying on his toes to avoid the acid slime.


No,her slime are like avoiding shuriken for itachi,and as i said before,itachi can easily climb on the summon.


Shizazzle said:


> I never said that, I said that Katsuyu is the reason that Tsunade will not have to deal with genjutsu.


Sorry,but katsuyu is non-factor here.


Shizazzle said:


> Again, I never said that. She has amazing chakra control, but surely there's better.


Yeah,there are better,that's sure.And what's having great chakra control allow you to do if you can't even know whether you're in a genjutsu or not?


----------



## αce (Jan 1, 2010)

Ms is banned

Wow. Ok.

I'll read tsukiyomi posts. Hopefully it's not just "oh she has good chakra control", because feats come before speculation.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> We saw in the sanin fight that Jiriaya could climb on Oro's summon and fight on it,Itachi can obviously do it.



It's been shown many times that airborne shinobi are extremely vulnerable. Meaning, Katsuyu will be able to utilize this to snipe him down.



godtachi said:


> When Itachi gets on Katsuyu and faces Tsnade,he can force her to look into his eyes(like he did with sassuke and naruto,who had full knowledge on how to fight sharingan).And how can Tsunade heal from Tsukiyomi when she wouldn't even be able to lift a finger??



Why won't she be able to lift a finger? Furthermore, you're drastically underestimating this "greatest medic in the world" thing.



godtachi said:


> No,her slime are like avoiding shuriken for itachi,and as i said before,itachi can easily climb on the summon.





Like avoiding... shuriken?

Okay, let's see:

It's easily as wide as the bridge.

It can easily cover the length of the bridge.

It will melt through whatever stands in its way.



godtachi said:


> Sorry,but katsuyu is non-factor here.



Except that Katsuyu is Tsunade's genjutsu immunity, damage protection and ranged offensive.



godtachi said:


> Yeah,there are better,that's sure.And what's having great chakra control allow you to do if you can't even know whether you're in a genjutsu or not?



With full knowledge, Tsunade will know all about Itachi's genjutsu. Furthermore, she is an extremely intelligent war veteran who, we can assume, has fought everything you can imagine, including dozens of genjutsu users. While I agree she has almost certainly never faced someone with illusions of Itachi's caliber, her vast experience, intelligence and complete knowledge on his arsenal will mean she won't have any issues recognizing she's been genjutsu'd.


----------



## SharinganSkill (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Taijutsu is irrelevant. I love how you're not bothering to address Katsuyu, which is Itachi's major downfall in this fight.



I love how I was responding to some dude who was thinking Tsunade could easily dodge his attack. I just told him why she couldnt. I wasnt talking about Katsuyu, because I wasnt talking about anything else either, as you could read.



SharinganSkill said:


> dont include any hax thing please, this is just talking about sharingan only, regardles of the abilites of any other shinobi



But yes, take half of my post and criticize something that is described in the second half


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> It's been shown many times that airborne shinobi are extremely vulnerable. Meaning, Katsuyu will be able to utilize this to snipe him down.


,and if Katsuyu tries something when Itachi and Tsunade are on her,tsunade may get hurt.





Shizazzle said:


> Why won't she be able to lift a finger? Furthermore, you're drastically underestimating this "greatest medic in the world" thing.



Oh my,Tsukiomyi mind fucks (look at kakashi),she can't lift a finger after.Her medical abilities won't serve her much if she can't make a single hand-seal.


Shizazzle said:


> Like avoiding... shuriken?
> 
> Okay, let's see:
> 
> ...


Yeah,kakashi can evade a gokakyou at point blank,same goes for Deva with FRS,itachi who is faster can do better.Thsi acid is child play for him.



Shizazzle said:


> Except that Katsuyu is Tsunade's genjutsu immunity, damage protection and ranged offensive.


No,Itachi can even genjutsu her summon like sasuke did.And when itachi is on Katsuyu's top,she won't do shit.


Shizazzle said:


> With full knowledge, Tsunade will know all about Itachi's genjutsu. Furthermore, she is an extremely intelligent war veteran who, we can assume, has fought everything you can imagine, including dozens of genjutsu users. While I agree she has almost certainly never faced someone with illusions of Itachi's caliber, her vast experience, intelligence and complete knowledge on his arsenal will mean she won't have any issues recognizing she's been genjutsu'd.



Yep,naruto also had full knowledge.And the same could be said about Oro,and guess what he was genjutsu-raped.


----------



## Soul (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> If all else fails, she can get a palm-sized clone of Katsuyu, seep it into her robes like she did during Pain's invasion, and get it to inject her with some chakra should she fall prey to a genjutsu.



I don't think that what you are suggesting will be an option for Tsunade at this distance while Itachi is bloodlusted.

Even if she has time to summon, Itachi would notice that she is using Katsuyu.
Also, how would the Summon notice that Tsunade is a Genjutsu?

And I haven't covered the possibility in Itachi using Genjutsu on the summon; and we know that Sharingan users can do it.

Clearly your argument is quite flawed in this scenario.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> ,and if Katsuyu tries something when Itachi and Tsunade are on her,tsunade may get hurt.



I don't recall Orochimaru or Kabuto ever attempting to jump on Katsuyu. Furthermore, she was preoccupied with Orochimaru's summons.



godtachi said:


> Oh my,Tsukiomyi mind fucks (look at kakashi),she can't lift a finger after.Her medical abilities won't serve her much if she can't make a single hand-seal.



Tsunade's pain threshold and endurance and ridiculously high, whereas Kakashi's (especially pre-skips) are fairly low. They aren't for comparing.



godtachi said:


> Yeah,kakashi can evade a gokakyou at point blank,same goes for Deva with FRS,itachi who is faster can do better.Thsi acid is child play for him.



Fire is not as fast as the acid slime. Furthermore it's obvious when it's about to be cast, whereas Katsuyu can just launch hers with no forewarning. In addition, the location will make it more of a hassle.



godtachi said:


> No,Itachi can even genjutsu her summon like sasuke did.And when itachi is on Katsuyu's top,she won't do shit.



Except that Tsunade could then dispel the genjutsu on Katsuyu, or Katsuyu could bring out a mini-Katsuyu to break the genjutsu. Dispelling illusions is a two-and-a-half-way street; Katsuyu can do it on herself and Tsunade, and Tsunade can do it on Katsuyu.



godtachi said:


> Yep,naruto also had full knowledge.And the same could be said about Oro,and guess what he was genjutsu-raped.



I'm going to stop debating this genjutsu thing with you. You're clearly ignoring everything I'm saying about it and just restating the point I'm continuously disproving.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> I don't think that what you are suggesting will be an option for Tsunade at this distance while Itachi is bloodlusted.
> 
> Even if she has time to summon, Itachi would notice that she is using Katsuyu.
> Also, how would the Summon notice that Tsunade is a Genjutsu?
> ...



Why do people think it takes anything more than a second to summon? Bite your thumb, place it on the ground, and shazam. Yes, Itachi would notice, but he will be expecting it anyway due to full knowledge and won't have much to prevent it at this distance.

Also, it won't be difficult for Tsunade to tell her summon that she is in a genjutsu. All it would take is half a shriek about genjutsu and Katsuyu would know to react.

See my above post; Tsunade can in turn dispel genjutsu on Katsuyu.


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> I don't think that what you are suggesting will be an option for Tsunade at this distance while Itachi is bloodlusted.
> 
> Even if she has time to summon, Itachi would notice that she is using Katsuyu.
> Also, how would the Summon notice that Tsunade is a Genjutsu?
> ...



Even if he notices, what's he gonna do? Katsuyu would know Tsunade's in a genjutsu if she randomly stops moving and talking. She can also just inject her with chakra periodically. Also, Katsuyu has no visible eyes, and Itachi's genjutsu work through eye contact, or finger-to-eye contact.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

itachi can dodge the acid slime >.>
we dont even know if she can free her self from genjutsu...unless you can prove it

all he has to do is keep evading her which is not hard to do since shes slow.

i just love how tsunadards say "she will punch ground and then he'll lose his balance" wtf is that shit he can easily jump away


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

If he jumps away, it could mean even more trouble for him if Katsuyu's been already summoned seeing as he would be an easy target in the air, unable to manuever very well.


----------



## Soul (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> For the love of god...
> 
> This would be because both Kakashi and Orochimaru made eye contact, could not heal themselves from the mental trauma, and did not have external sources to break them out of genjutsu. Tsunade has all the counters to his technique.



Mental trauma?
Orochimaru didn't suffered for mental trauma; and, unless that you really think that Tsunade can stand Tsukuyomi, Kakashi's point is irrelevant.



> Katsuyu is an external chakra source.



She would have to summon it first and they use it, which won't happen in this scenario.



> It's actually extremely cannon that she can break Tsunade out of genjutsu



False.

Even if she has time to summon it, Itachi would notice that she is using Katsuyu.

How would the Summon notice that Tsunade is a Genjutsu?

And Itachi can use Genjutsu on the summon; that _*is*_ cannon.



> No, she probably won't be engaging him in taijutsu.



Good that you can recognize that.



> Because he has yet to face someone with ridiculously high stamina, chakra, pain threshold and healing.



Irrelevant.
She doesn't has a real counter to Genjutsu nor to MS Jutsus {that is why I banned them}; also, Tsunade can't do much with Ninjutsu and she hasn't showed Genjutsu.



> Orochimaru got caught in a genjutsu, which he had nothing to counter with. That is not and will not be the case with Tsunade.



Orochimaru has more counter to Genjutsu than Tsunade, as Tsunade doesn't has any that can be reliable in this scenario.



> Full knowledge is full.



Knowledge of it doesn't means that you know how to avoid it.
Provide how full knowledge will help her in making Genjutsu useless.



> And Katsuyu breaks her out of the genjutsu.



Tsunade needs to summon her first, than Katsuyu would have to get on Tsunade; which Itachi will notice with ease.



> She won't, because his genjutsu will have been dispelled.



When you provide a good argument, that is.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

narutoNonepiece said:


> itachi can dodge the acid slime >.>
> we dont even know if she can free her self from genjutsu...unless you can prove it



Yes he can, but constantly evading it will stop him from closing in on her and will exhaust him. Also, Katsuyu will be breaking Tsunade out of genjutsu.



narutoNonepiece said:


> all he has to do is keep evading her which is not hard to do since shes slow.



But considering he has nothing that can do much damage at a range, he'll be hard pressed to keep up an offensive and a defense. He will be outlasted.



narutoNonepiece said:


> i just love how tsunadards say "she will punch ground and then he'll lose his balance" wtf is that shit he can easily jump away



I wholeheartedly agree that the old break-the-ground-and-oneshot-them combo is extremely overrated and would never work against a skilled opponent.

Why am I bothering to respond to people that clearly haven't read any of the rebuttals?


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Why do people think it takes anything more than a second to summon? Bite your thumb, place it on the ground, and shazam. Yes, Itachi would notice, but he will be expecting it anyway due to full knowledge and won't have much to prevent it at this distance.
> 
> Also, it won't be difficult for Tsunade to tell her summon that she is in a genjutsu. All it would take is half a shriek about genjutsu and Katsuyu would know to react.
> 
> See my above post; Tsunade can in turn dispel genjutsu on Katsuyu.



Le finger or crow genjutsu >>> bite your thumb, place it on ground , shazam + make it smaller and fit into her clothes which it i don't remember it being able to disrupt genjutus. 

Another thing is Itachi can put Katsuyu under his genjutsu. 

And finally he can easily do a crow + headshot combo, like he clearly did with Sasuke and made him look into his Tsukiyomi (which Tsunade has no way to counter, and no her treating the side effects of =/= being immune to it and let us not forget the fact that even after her healing it took Kakashi + Sasuke a whole week to recover. 

Itachi can also kill you with Tsukiyomi so no chance to heal.)


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

They were in the hospital for a week. The woke up a couple of minutes after being healed.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

well she doesnt have time to heal herself...


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> They were in the hospital for a week. The woke up a couple of minutes after being healed.



I stand corrected  .

He can still kill her with Tsukiyomi though .


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> I don't recall Orochimaru or Kabuto ever attempting to jump on Katsuyu. Furthermore, she was preoccupied with Orochimaru's summons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you doing this on purpose?
1.I proved evidence that two fighters can fight on the top of a summon(Oro and jiraiya).Not attempting to jump on katsuyu is irrelevant since she's not different from a snake summon.
2.Kakashi saw his Obito die when he was a teen,he participated in the third ninja war...tsunade cries a lot(never seen kaakshi crying),had a blood-phobia(shows a weak personality)...Kakashi had better mental resistance than Tsunade and yet fell on his knees(plus,he had sharingan which provide some resistence,unlike Tsunade).Kisame was even surprised thatKakashi withstood Tsuki.Tsunade can't do shit to it.

3.FRS is much faster than the slime(who told you taht fire is not as fast??),and Deva evaded it.Itachi can easily do the same.

4.Tsunade has no mean to see that katsuyu is on genjutsu(she's not a sensor type shinobi).All itachi has to do is to jump on katsuyu(after he genjutsu'd her)and the fight begins.

5.That's assuming the mini-katsuyu is fast enough to appraoch tsunade before itachi closes the distance with Tsunade and do whatever he wants(remember that Itachi is tier 5 in speed).Breaking Tsukiyomi like this is out of question(Tsukiyomi is instant)/

6.Man,all your arguments can't even be called since all you do is speculating(katsuyu can prevent itachi from jumpiong on her top)and giving scenario that are too-far fetched(mini katsuyu breaking al genjutsu)


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

He can't kill her with Tsukuyomi, he can just kill her after she's hit with it, assuming that she'll be on the floor panting for breath and such. It takes like two seconds, so I doubt even Katsuyu will have time to dispel it unless she doesn't stop injecting chakra into Tsunade's body until it's all over, but that probably can't be due to the fact that she'll eventually run out, mostly due to her small size, meaning less chakra that will probably not allow her to last very long. That's why, even though Katsuyu can dispel the other genjutsu, Tsunade'll still be affected by Tsukuyomi. Even if she does heal herself, though, she'll probably fall unconscious for a couple of minutes, which is more than enough time for Itachi to bypass Katsuyu and kill Tsunade, assuming that Katsuyu melds with Tsunade to shield her from attacks.

Overall, I don't think it'll be as fast a win for Itachi as many people claim, but he will be able to win in the end, I believe, through Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Mental trauma?
> Orochimaru didn't suffered for mental trauma; and, unless that you really think that Tsunade can stand Tsukuyomi, Kakashi's point is irrelevant.



Mental trauma was what completely shattered Kakashi and Sasuke. IIRC it was just basic genjutsu followed by a kunai that was used on Orochimaru.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> She would have to summon it first and they use it, which won't happen in this scenario.



Why wouldn't it happen? What is Itachi going to do to prevent it?



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> False.
> 
> Even if she has time to summon it, Itachi would notice that she is using Katsuyu.



How will she not have time to summon it? It takes all of one or two seconds. Also, Itachi wouldn't notice that Katsuyu was injecting chakra into Tsunade, but even if he did how is that relevant?



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> How would the Summon notice that Tsunade is a Genjutsu?



Because Tsunade wouldn't just stand there and take it. Her relationship and teamwork with Katsuyu are great; she would easily say "HALP, GENJUTSU HAX" and Katsuyu would break her out.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> And Itachi can use Genjutsu on the summon; that _*is*_ cannon.



It's also cannon that Tsunade is an external chakra source, meaning she can break Katsuyu out of genjutsu and Katsuyu breaks her out of genjutsu.

Like I said, neither of them are just going to sit there and take the genjutsu; they won't hesitate to request help.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Good that you can recognize that.



Thank you. 



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Irrelevant.
> She doesn't has a real counter to Genjutsu nor to MS Jutsus {that is why I banned them}; also, Tsunade can't do much with Ninjutsu and she hasn't showed Genjutsu.



How can you still say this?

Katsuyu is the perfect counter to genjutsu. She can and will dispel any illusions by injecting her master with chakra. Tsunade will easily avoid eye contact for the reasons I've listed several times (go back through my posts if you want them, I'm not retyping them, and they're in about five different posts, sometimes multiple times). With ninjutsu she'll be ensuring that no damage Itachi manages to inflict on her stays.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Orochimaru has more counter to Genjutsu than Tsunade, as Tsunade doesn't has any that can be reliable in this scenario.



Yes, he probably does, but she begins on Katsuyu, which is a great counter. At the time he was not prepared to face genjutsu and thus had nothing out (like a summon) to help free himself. Furthermore, he lacked knowledge so the illusion distorted him. Tsunade has what he lacked; a countermeasure completely ready and full knowledge.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Knowledge of it doesn't means that you know how to avoid it.
> Provide how full knowledge will help her in making Genjutsu useless.



Because she'll immediately recognize it and tell Katsuyu that she needs to be broken out.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Tsunade needs to summon her first, than Katsuyu would have to get on Tsunade; which Itachi will notice with ease.



I can't tell exactly who you're replying to here. How is Katsuyu 'getting on Tsunade'? Tsunade bites her thumb and places it on the ground, and Katsuyu is summoned. Let's say that takes two, at most three seconds. Itachi has nothing to prevent this. If he begins rushing her then Katsuyu will be out in plenty of time to meet his charge with a wave of acid. By simply standing on top of her summon, like every summoner begins, Tsunade will be able to break Katsuyu out of genjutsu and vice verse. No doubt Itachi will recognize every bit of this, but there's nothing he can do.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> When you provide a good argument, that is.



Buddy system is cannon. Katsuyu is Tsunade's big buddy.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

prove Katsuyu can dispell genjutsu


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

narutoNonepiece said:


> prove Katsuyu can dispell genjutsu



She can use chakra. It's not that hard...



			
				godtachi said:
			
		

> Are you doing this on purpose?
> 1.I proved evidence that two fighters can fight on the top of a summon(Oro and jiraiya).Not attempting to jump on katsuyu is irrelevant since she's not different from a snake summon.



People are always insisting that Katsuyu can be killed by salt, aren't they? Because she's a slug? Well, slugs also have the ability to cover themselves in a thick and sticky substance to escape predators, meaning that, if Itachi tries to climb up, he'll just slip down.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Le finger or crow genjutsu >>> bite your thumb, place it on ground , shazam + make it smaller and fit into her clothes which it i don't remember it being able to disrupt genjutus.



Where did this idea of Katsuyu becoming smaller come from? First of all, a smaller Katsuyu is unnecessarily and not helpful at all. We need the big, tankariffic Katsuyu with huge waves of acid. The moment Katsuyu is summoned, Tsunade can say she's in a genjutsu and Katsuyu can break her out of it.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Another thing is Itachi can put Katsuyu under his genjutsu.



And Tsunade can break Katsuyu out of it. 



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> And finally he can easily do a crow + headshot combo, like he clearly did with Sasuke and made him look into his Tsukiyomi (which Tsunade has no way to counter, and no her treating the side effects of =/= being immune to it and let us not forget the fact that even after her healing it took Kakashi + Sasuke a whole week to recover.



No he can't, because his karasu illusion will be dispelled. Your point on her healing has already been disproven.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Itachi can also kill you with Tsukiyomi so no chance to heal.)



Except Tsunade has shown an incredible pain threshold and fortitude. Tsukiyomi will not kill her if three completely lethal stab wounds from a legendary blade did not. In fact, they hardly seemed to affect her, save for provoking her phobia.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> I stand corrected  .
> 
> He can still kill her with Tsukiyomi though .



Nope.



Godaime Hokage said:


> He can't kill her with Tsukuyomi, he can just kill her after she's hit with it, assuming that she'll be on the floor panting for breath and such. It takes like two seconds, so I doubt even Katsuyu will have time to dispel it unless she doesn't stop injecting chakra into Tsunade's body until it's all over, but that probably can't be due to the fact that she'll eventually run out, mostly due to her small size, meaning less chakra that will probably not allow her to last very long. That's why, even though Katsuyu can dispel the other genjutsu, Tsunade'll still be affected by Tsukuyomi. Even if she does heal herself, though, she'll probably fall unconscious for a couple of minutes, which is more than enough time for Itachi to bypass Katsuyu and kill Tsunade, assuming that Katsuyu melds with Tsunade to shield her from attacks.
> 
> Overall, I don't think it'll be as fast a win for Itachi as many people claim, but he will be able to win in the end, I believe, through Tsukuyomi.



Okay, I'd like to restate my reasons why she will have no issues making eye contact one last time. Hopefully people will bother to read them, unlike in my previous posts, although I'm sure it'll be no different.


Reasons why Tsunade will not make eye contact:

They are at a good distance.

The location is bathed in thick mist.

Tsunade has complete knowledge.

She is atop a very tall, very thick slug.


I'll go find the scan if need be, but I'm sure you all remember that Katsuyu was easily as tall as Konoha's tallest scyscrapers.

What the hell can Itachi do?


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

Well, wasn't the mist in the bridge created by Zabuza?  Plus, they'll eventually have to get closer to each other.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

it was proven in the manga that only people who have bijuu and have mastered there bijuu can break out of any gen jutsu like Tsukuyomi 

Katsuyu isnt a bijuu...


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Well, wasn't the mist in the bridge created by Zabuza?  Plus, they'll eventually have to get closer to each other.



The location is naturally very misty. Furthermore, the point of this is that Tsunade will keep Itachi at a helpless range.


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> He can't kill her with Tsukuyomi, he can just kill her after she's hit with it, assuming that she'll be on the floor panting for breath and such. It takes like two seconds, so I doubt even Katsuyu will have time to dispel it unless she doesn't stop injecting chakra into Tsunade's body until it's all over, but that probably can't be due to the fact that she'll eventually run out, mostly due to her small size, meaning less chakra that will probably not allow her to last very long. That's why, even though Katsuyu can dispel the other genjutsu, Tsunade'll still be affected by Tsukuyomi. Even if she does heal herself, though, she'll probably fall unconscious for a couple of minutes, which is more than enough time for Itachi to bypass Katsuyu and kill Tsunade, assuming that Katsuyu melds with Tsunade to shield her from attacks.
> 
> Overall, I don't think it'll be as fast a win for Itachi as many people claim, but he will be able to win in the end, I believe, through Tsukuyomi.


Man oh man, I haven't came here for over a year now, and I always have to show people this scan, ah well I had it ready.


Now add to this the simple fact that Itachi came solely for telling Danzou he was still alive, and that he is a pretty cool guy, loves peace and doesn't afraid of anything and we have a killer Tsukiyomi.


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

narutoNonepiece said:


> it was proven in the manga that only people who have bijuu and have mastered there bijuu can break out of any gen jutsu like Tsukuyomi
> 
> Katsuyu isnt a bijuu...



I never said Tsunade can break out of Tsukuyomi. And I never said Katsuyu can snap her out of it. In fact, I said Tsukuyomi was what would actually make Itachi win this. The other genjutsu, however, Katsuyu can dispel for Tsunade because she can just insert chakra into her body. She already has a similar technique where she melds with people by using a technique to extend her body into theirs and cover them up, shielding them from attacks. By the way, bijuu and jinchuuriki in perfect harmony are not immune to genjutsu, the bijuu can just snap the jinchuuriki out by giving them chakra.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Man oh man, I haven't came here for over a year now, and I always have to show people this scan, ah well I had it ready.
> 
> 
> 
> Now add to this the simple fact that Itachi came solely for telling Danzou he was still alive, and that he is a pretty cool guy, loves peace and doesn't afraid of anything and we have a killer Tsukiyomi.



Tsukuyomi is Tsukuyomi and Tsunade is very strong-willed, which has been proven time and again. Not even Sasuke died after taking a Tsukuyomi, even though he was like 13.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

i never said you did

but doesnt Katsuyu need to be fueled with chakra by tsunade

and it was stated that foriegn chakra is needed to break you out of genjutsu(bijuu's)


----------



## ConsumedByDarkness (Jan 1, 2010)

Itachi would probably win this one i think because of his shadow clones and genjutsu abilities. His is very fast to so i dont think tsunade would have a chance to get in and go for some cqc(close quarters combat).there are possible scenarios that could give tsunade the victory but there really isn't much in tsunade's favor in this fight.


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

narutoNonepiece said:


> i never said you did
> 
> but doesnt Katsuyu need to be fueled with chakra by tsunade
> 
> and it was stated that foriegn chakra is needed to break you out of genjutsu(bijuu's)



Foreign chakra is any chakra that isn't your own. Time and again people have been snapping each other out of genjutsu by injecting their chakra into the victim's Chakra Pathway System. It's no different with bijuu. It's easier for jinchuuriki to be broken out of genjutsu because there's something inside them with chakra different from their own that can snap them out the moment they're caught. It's no different with Katsuyu and Tsunade if a smaller clone is hidden within Tsunade's cloak, like during Pain's invasion. Katsuyu was only fueled with Tsunade's chakra because hers alone wasn't big enough to sustain an entire village.


----------



## ConsumedByDarkness (Jan 1, 2010)

AND WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP SAYING THAT THE BRIDGE IS COVERED IN MIST THE OP SAID THAT IT WAS JUST AT THE GREAT NARUTO BRIDGE NOT THAT THERE WAS MIST!!! THERE WAS ONLY MIST AT THE BRIDGE BECAUSE ZABUZA USED THE HIDDEN MIST JUTSU!!!! XP


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

^^Godaime Hokage,you're giving a natural ability of skugs and try to apply it here(you may be right).I once said that Snakes could detect the chameleon because of their natural abilities.iI got negged for it (by some stupid guys).It may be true,and that's why i sad itachi would genjutsu Katsuyu(and Tsunade has no mean to know Katsyuy is in genjutsu)


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Where did this idea of Katsuyu becoming smaller come from? First of all, a smaller Katsuyu is unnecessarily and not helpful at all. We need the big, tankariffic Katsuyu with huge waves of acid. The moment Katsuyu is summoned, Tsunade *can say* she's in a genjutsu and Katsuyu can break her out of it.


lol what ? 



Shizazzle said:


> And Tsunade can break Katsuyu out of it.


and she will know... how ? we're speaking of Itachi here, he doesn't waste a single moment.



Shizazzle said:


> No he can't, because his karasu illusion will be dispelled. Your point on her healing has already been disproven.


 Aren't the crows real ? 




Shizazzle said:


> Except Tsunade has shown an incredible pain threshold and fortitude. Tsukiyomi will not kill her if three completely lethal stab wounds from a legendary blade did not. In fact, they hardly seemed to affect her, save for provoking her phobia.


 Mental pain =/= Physical pain, nice true though, not to mention Itachi can show her anything he likes, like her past so yes he can kill her, and do not forget the fact that she doesn't have the Sharingan which gives little resistance to Tsukiyomi. 

And did you forget Kakashi's comment 




Shizazzle said:


> Okay, I'd like to restate my reasons why she will have no issues making eye contact one last time. Hopefully people will bother to read them, unlike in my previous posts, although I'm sure it'll be no different.
> 
> 
> Reasons why Tsunade will not make eye contact:
> ...


Distance is nothing thanks to Shunshin, mist won't do you any good, that noob shit worked on Kakashi, who is not a true heir of the sharingan , did you forget that Sasuke was able to see Deidara's bombs underground, thus giving him an advantage while Tsunade never had any battle experience in heavy thick mist in fact Itachi is the assassin here.


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

But Katsuyu has no visible eyes, so how can he put her under a genjutsu?


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

I really like how the only member who thinks that Itachi loses to Tsunade had no counter to my previous post.Were you convinced Shizazzle??:ho


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Tsukuyomi is Tsukuyomi and Tsunade is very strong-willed, which has been proven time and again. *Not even Sasuke died after taking a Tsukuyomi, even though he was like 13*.


 




He was unable to kill his own brother. 



He even tried to kill me with the MS *shows pictures of Tsukiyomi + Amaterasu* 
You would have been had Itachi been serious. 

More evidence Tsukiyomi can kill you, and that's against Sasuke a true heir of the Sharingan and one who was praised greatly for having eyes that will surpass Itachi's.


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

I mean the Tsukuyomi he used against Sasuke when Itachi and Kisame came to take Naruto, which put him in a coma that Tsunade had to heal for as long as Kakashi.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Are you doing this on purpose?



Yes, I am intentionally proving you wrong time and time again.



godtachi said:


> 1.I proved evidence that two fighters can fight on the top of a summon(Oro and jiraiya).Not attempting to jump on katsuyu is irrelevant since she's not different from a snake summon.



So Jiraiya vs. Orochimaru on a fodder snake summon is going to be anything like Itachi vs. Tsunade on the big boss slug summon?

How is Katsuyu anything like this random snake?



godtachi said:


> 2.Kakashi saw his Obito die when he was a teen,he participated in the third ninja war...tsunade cries a lot(never seen kaakshi crying),had a blood-phobia(shows a weak personality)...Kakashi had better mental resistance than Tsunade and yet fell on his knees(plus,he had sharingan which provide some resistence,unlike Tsunade).Kisame was even surprised thatKakashi withstood Tsuki.Tsunade can't do shit to it.



What is this... I don't even...
Tsunade cried once when Orochimaru was taunting the memories of her lost brother and lover. Tsunade was hailed as a key factor in Konoha's victory in that war, while Kakashi's participation was hardly ever even noted, so I'm surprised you would try to use that against her when all it does is hype her. Furthermore it's irrelevant.

A phobia is a mental disorder. It does not show weakness of personality or mental fortitude. Also, she has long since recovered from it and seems to have only grown emotionally and mentally stronger since she ended her gambling and drinking spree.

Kakashi has nowhere near Tsunade's stamina.



godtachi said:


> 3.FRS is much faster than the slime(who told you taht fire is not as fast??),and Deva evaded it.Itachi can easily do the same.



I wholeheartedly agree that Itachi will be able to evade Katsuyu's Acid Slime. However, I don't believe he'll be able to avoid it at pointblank range, AKA if he gets close. He needs to be close to be able to do anything to Tsunade. The acid will keep him at good range and eventually tire him out to the point that he will slip up and get hit. What can Itachi really do if Tsunade has her own elite healing and Katsuyu's melding technique protecting her? Furthermore, he basically has to kill her twice, as Creation Rebirth is not to be forgotten. He simply isn't going to be able to keep up a strong enough offense for long enough.



godtachi said:


> 4.Tsunade has no mean to see that katsuyu is on genjutsu(she's not a sensor type shinobi).All itachi has to do is to jump on katsuyu(after he genjutsu'd her)and the fight begins.



So Katsuyu is going to be completely silent about the fact that she has been rendered helpless, when her master is completely free and able to free her?

Riiiight...



godtachi said:


> 5.That's assuming the mini-katsuyu is fast enough to appraoch tsunade before itachi closes the distance with Tsunade and do whatever he wants(remember that Itachi is tier 5 in speed).Breaking Tsukiyomi like this is out of question(Tsukiyomi is instant)/



The large Katsuyu that Tsunade will be standing on can surge chakra into her and break her out at any time. A mini-Katsuyu is unnecessary. Itachi has never showed tremendous speed, so I don't know where his amazing speed hype is coming from. I agree that Tsukiyomi will not be broken, but I'd like for you to read my reasons that he has no hope of catching her with it, as I've posted it many, many times in the past few pages. 



godtachi said:


> 6.Man,all your arguments can't even be called since all you do is speculating(katsuyu can prevent itachi from jumpiong on her top)and giving scenario that are too-far fetched(mini katsuyu breaking al genjutsu)



How am I speculating anything? It's ridiculous to think that Itachi can jump such a huge height without being vulnerable long enough for Katsuyu to acidrape.

How is it far fetched to think that Katsuyu can break Tsunade out of genjutsu? For the love of god, I know you read the 30% Itachi fight, Kakashi specifically said all it takes is an outside chakra source to break illusions. It was then proven on Naruto, and who was the caster of the broken genjutsu? Itachi!



narutoNonepiece said:


> prove Katsuyu can dispell genjutsu



It's cannon that an outside chakra source can disrupt someone's chakra and thus free them of all illusions. Meaning that Tsunade and Katsuyu can do this to eachother.



narutoNonepiece said:


> it was proven in the manga that only people who have bijuu and have mastered there bijuu can break out of any gen jutsu like Tsukuyomi
> 
> Katsuyu isnt a bijuu...



Stop putting words in our mouth, we have agreed many times that Tsunade is not going to be breaking out of Tsukiyomi. It's very annoying to debate with you when you're very clearly not reading our posts.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Man oh man, I haven't came here for over a year now, and I always have to show people this scan, ah well I had it ready.



Care to read the gigantic letters in my previous post that explain that Itachi's Tsukiyomi will not succeed?



godtachi said:


> Now add to this the simple fact that Itachi came solely for telling Danzou he was still alive, and that he is a pretty cool guy, loves peace and doesn't afraid of anything and we have a killer Tsukiyomi.



I agree that Tsukiyomi might end the match, but on top of the fact that there's a .1% chance he'll be able to make eye contact, Tsunade has shown she can very easily heal from it, and that she has a ridiculously high pain threshold. If she can keep away from Itachi for a minute she can disregard the Tsukiyomi via medical ninjutsu.



Godaime Hokage said:


> Tsukuyomi is Tsukuyomi and Tsunade is very strong-willed, which has been proven time and again. Not even Sasuke died after taking a Tsukuyomi, even though he was like 13.



I would like to say this point is irrelevant and will spark a lot of hate, as obviously Itachi would never use a killer Tsukiyomi on Sasuke.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

Katsuyu doesnt need eyes to be put in genjutsu, itachi can use his fingers or other methods. he probably could put Katsuyu and tsunade in genjutsu at the same time


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

narutoNonepiece said:


> Katsuyu doesnt need eyes to be put in genjutsu, itachi can use his fingers or other methods. he probably could put Katsuyu and tsunade in genjutsu at the same time



... He still has to point at her eyes.


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> I mean the Tsukuyomi he used against Sasuke when Itachi and Kisame came to take Naruto, which put him in a coma that Tsunade had to heal for as long as Kakashi.


So Itachi had a change of heart when he came to Konoha and he was ready to kill Sasuke ? then he changed his mind again when Sasuke was 16 years old and decided not to kill him... 

Damn Itachi is one moody motherf***er.


Godaime Hokage said:


> But Katsuyu has no visible eyes, so how can he put her under a genjutsu?


If Katsuyu can see then she can see his finger he doesn't need to make eye contact


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> So Itachi had a change of heart when he came to Konoha and he was ready to kill Sasuke ? then he changed his mind again when Sasuke was 16 years old and decided not to kill him...
> 
> Damn Itachi is one moody motherf***er.
> 
> If Katsuyu can see then she can see his finger he doesn't need to make eye contact



Itachi used a Tsukuyomi on Sasuke when he was thirteenish. He did not die. He just slipped into a coma. That's all I know. Tsukuyomi has never killed anyone.

Just because Katsuyu can see his finger doesn't mean she's gonna look at it. Being as big as she is, she has an extremely wide field of vision. Furthermore, if she splits, he'll be using Tsukuyomi on a bunch of clones if they do decide to look at his finger.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

narutoNonepiece said:


> i never said you did
> 
> but doesnt Katsuyu need to be fueled with chakra by tsunade
> 
> and it was stated that foriegn chakra is needed to break you out of genjutsu(bijuu's)



...
Are you stupid or just a really good troll?



Godaime Hokage said:


> If a smaller clone is hidden within Tsunade's cloak, like during Pain's invasion.



Okay, this is causing some confusion.

A Katsuyu bunshin is not necessary. The ordinary sized Katsuyu can inject chakra into her master. Please stop posting things involving a mini-Katsuyu as people think that such a thing would give Itachi an opening to kill Tsunade (it's ridiculous and untrue, but just don't even give them the ammo).



godtachi said:


> and Tsunade has no mean to know Katsyuy is in genjutsu



Why are people assuming that Tsunade and Katsuyu, who have worked together for many years and have the best master-summoning relationship we've seen so far, are going to stay silent when they could just speak up and get help?



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> and she will know... how ? we're speaking of Itachi here, he doesn't waste a single moment.



Because both the summon and her master can speak.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Aren't the crows real ?



No, they're part of an illusion.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> And did you forget Kakashi's comment



Not canceling it midway, but Tsunade has been shown to easily heal away the damage.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Distance is nothing thanks to Shunshin, mist won't do you any good,



Itachi isn't covering everything with a simple Shunshin. It will take him enough time for Katsuyu and Tsunade to dispel illusions on each other or whatever. The mist is just another contributor as to why eye contact will be difficult.



Godaime Hokage said:


> But Katsuyu has no visible eyes, so how can he put her under a genjutsu?



He can capture her under a normal, non-sight based illusion, but Tsunade can simply do what Chiyo and Sakura did to Naruto and free her from it. No, Katsuyu is not going to stay silent, she's going to tell Tsunade that she needs genjutsu-freeing.



godtachi said:


> I really like how the only member who thinks that Itachi loses to Tsunade had no counter to my previous post.Were you convinced Shizazzle??:ho



Nah, I just completely forgot to quote your post, to.


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Itachi used a Tsukuyomi on Sasuke when he was thirteenish. He did not die. He just slipped into a coma. That's all I know. Tsukuyomi has never killed anyone.
> 
> Just because Katsuyu can see his finger doesn't mean she's gonna look at it. Being as big as she is, she has an extremely wide field of vision. Furthermore, if she splits, he'll be using Tsukuyomi on a bunch of clones if they do decide to look at his finger.



So if I stabbed you in the hand with a knife, and you didn't die, that means knifes are incapable of killing? 

Do you not get it ? Itachi did not want to kill anyone, why the hell would he use a lethal Tsukiyomi on the brother he could not kill FFS. are you doing this to piss me off ? because it seems like a straight forward argument to me. 

Itachi doesnt want to kill Sasuke or anyone ----->>> use non lethal Tsukiyomi so that Sasuke doesn't die.

Wider filed of vision = higher chance to look at his finger = get put to sleep by Itachi-kun. 

I hardly think Itachi will use Tsukiyomi on a split Katsuyu.


----------



## Soul (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Even if he notices, what's he gonna do?



Use Genjutsu on Katsuyu?
That would work quite well.



> Katsuyu would know Tsunade's in a genjutsu if she randomly stops moving and talking.



As both of us know; Itachi has showed to be able to trick the opponents by making them see things in his Genjutsu that actually seems like the real shit.

Tsunade wouldn't notice, nor Katsuyu.

Also, Itachi has layered Genjutsu.



> She can also just inject her with chakra periodically.



That is terribly OoC.



> Also, Katsuyu has no visible eyes, and Itachi's genjutsu work through eye contact, or finger-to-eye contact.



Then, you are arguing that Katsuyu is blind?
Really?


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> ...
> Why are people assuming that Tsunade and Katsuyu, who have worked together for many years and have the best master-summoning relationship we've seen so far, are going to stay silent when they could just speak up and get help?
> 
> 
> ...


 When one is in a Genjutsu he can not speak, and we're speaking of Itachi's genjutsu here he can put you to sleep in seconds. 



Shizazzle said:


> No, they're part of an illusion.


hmmm just checked you're correct.



Shizazzle said:


> Not canceling it midway, but Tsunade has been shown to easily heal away the damage.


 Tsunade can heal death  holy shit she's Jesus... the hot version 




Shizazzle said:


> Itachi isn't covering everything with a simple Shunshin. It will take him enough time for Katsuyu and Tsunade to dispel illusions on each other or whatever. The mist is just another contributor as to why eye contact will be difficult.


 Itachi is an Anbu assassin the Mist will pretty much make Tsunade vulnerable to Itachi's Kunai, while he can make his first attack an exploding bushin.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Use Genjutsu on Katsuyu?
> That would work quite well.



Until Katsuyu says "HALP GENJUTSU" and Tsunade injects her with chakra, breaking the illusion in an instant.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> As both of us know; Itachi has showed to be able to trick the opponents by making them see things in his Genjutsu that actually seems like the real shit.



Yes, but we both also know that having two people is the bane of Itachi's illusions.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Tsunade wouldn't notice, nor Katsuyu.
> 
> Also, Itachi has layered Genjutsu.



And why wouldn't they just ask each other for some quick anti-genjutsu help?



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> That is terribly OoC.



Agreed. However, it is also terribly OOC for Katsuyu and Tsunade not to communicate and ask for help when they are bound by genjutsu.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Then, you are arguing that Katsuyu is blind?
> Really?



I also think the Katsuyu-won't-be-affected-by-sight-based-genjutsu-and-has-no-eyes argument is ridiculous. The fact is that Tsunade and Katsuyu can and will talk to each other and free each other from genjutsu as necessary.


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Ohohoho... saying Tsunade is stronger than Itachi... you should be a comic because im laughing my damn ass off..


itachi used tsukuyomi on a teen-sasuke and sasuke didn't die, WHY? ITACHI NEVER WANTED TO KILL SASUKE YOU... --.


He would kill Tsunade with Tsukuyomi, make her handicapped and then -snip- she's done. Seriously, he would kill her mentally with Tsukuyomi.

He wouldn't even break a sweat for God's sake... this is Itachi we are talking about, the guy who killed the strongest clan, UCHIHA - when hewas only 13 years old..


----------



## Soul (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Why do people think it takes anything more than a second to summon? Bite your thumb, place it on the ground, and shazam.



I don't think that.
What I think is that she isn't going to do it immediately.



> Yes, Itachi would notice, but he will be expecting it anyway due to full knowledge and won't have much to prevent it at this distance.



That may be true.



> Also, it won't be difficult for Tsunade to tell her summon that she is in a genjutsu. All it would take is half a shriek about genjutsu and Katsuyu would know to react.



How would Tsuande know that _*she*_ is in a Genjutsu?



> See my above post; Tsunade can in turn dispel genjutsu on Katsuyu.



So you really think that your previous post proves that Katsuyu can dispell Itachi Genjutsu?


You are assuming that:

Katsuyu knows that Tsuande is in a Genjutsu.
Tsunade, after being dispelled of the Genjutsu {if she is} will react to an attack made by Itachi to take advantage of the situation.

Even if Katsuyu could dispell the Genjutsu, it doesn't means that Tsunade will have time to react to a bunshin Bakuha or any other shit that Itachi will be using while Tsuande is in the Genjutsu.

Also, you are just ignoring layered Genjutsu


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

I just want to know how Tsunade will know katsuyu is on genjutsu??the purpose of a good genjutsu is to buy time for the enemy to attack you in the real world,Itachi is the master in this(deidara,genjutsu with sasuke..)

Shizazzle,you won't be able to prove that tsunade will know that katsuyu is in genjutsu(unless you  believe they work like bijuu),and that iatchi can't jump on katsuyu,katsuyu can only throw acid ,she can't use it on her body.


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> When one is in a Genjutsu he can not speak, and we're speaking of Itachi's genjutsu here he can put you to sleep in seconds.



Since when are people rendered mute in genjutsu, and since when has Itachi shown sleep-inducing illusions? 



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> hmmm just checked you're correct.







-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Tsunade can heal death  holy shit she's Jesus... the hot version



The problem with Tsukiyomi is that we have never seen Itachi assault someone with it in a situation where we can speculate he was holding back. We have ample reason to assume it will not kill Tsunade, and evidence that if the target is not killed she can heal the intense mental damage it causes.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Itachi is an Anbu assassin the Mist will pretty much make Tsunade vulnerable to Itachi's Kunai, while he can make his first attack an exploding bushin.



And Tsunade is a war veteran. She shouldn't have trouble fighting in mist. The only thing it does is make it even harder for Itachi to make eye contact with her. The problem is that anything that gets close will be melted with acid.


----------



## Soul (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Until Katsuyu says "HALP GENJUTSU" and Tsunade injects her with chakra, breaking the illusion in an instant.



Funny how you keep ignoring my arguments.

Itachi _*controls the summon while they are in Genjutsu*_, at least we saw it when Sasuke managed to get into Manda while Manda was in the Genjutsu.



> Yes, but we both also know that having two people is the bane of Itachi's illusions.



False; we have seen that Sharingan Genjutsu can affect multiple targets.
Also, we have also seen that Itachi can use Genjutsu on a target and keep fighting.



> And why wouldn't they just ask each other for some quick anti-genjutsu help?



Please _*read*_.
How would they know that they are in a Genjutsu?



> Agreed. However, it is also terribly OOC for Katsuyu and Tsunade not to communicate and ask for help when they are bound by genjutsu.



Can you please start reading?
_*How would they know that they are in a Genjutsu?*_



> I also think the Katsuyu-won't-be-affected-by-sight-based-genjutsu-and-has-no-eyes argument is ridiculous.



Then why did quote me on that?


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle,please tell me how Tsunade heals mental damage??It sisn't something that she has inside her.She uses ninjutsu.And after taking a tsukiyomi,Tsunade will be for sure not able to do a handseal.


----------



## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Since when are people rendered mute in genjutsu, and since when has Itachi shown sleep-inducing illusions?


Since the time Zetsu did not know what the brothers where talking about in their genjutsu and he only said that they were having a battle of genjutusu ? 
also this for the sleep inducing gen.



Shizazzle said:


> The problem with Tsukiyomi is that we have never seen Itachi assault someone with it in a situation where we can speculate he was holding back. We have ample reason to assume it will not kill Tsunade, and evidence that if the target is not killed she can heal the intense mental damage it causes.


 Any situation against Sasuke he was holding back, I mean Madara spoke of it for 4-5 chapters , about how Itachi loved him and blah blah and how he went to Konoha only to warn the elders. 

And since Kisame says he was Surprised that Kakashi didn't die means that he had already seen someone die to it.



Shizazzle said:


> And Tsunade is a war veteran. She shouldn't have trouble fighting in mist. The only thing it does is make it even harder for Itachi to make eye contact with her. The problem is that anything that gets close will be melted with acid.


on what basis can you say that ? for Itachi his sharingan heat-chakara sensory ability will make him see Tsunade but how will she spot him ?


----------



## Soul (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Mental trauma was what completely shattered Kakashi and Sasuke. IIRC it was just basic genjutsu followed by a kunai that was used on Orochimaru.



Then why did you mentioned Orochimaru?



> Why wouldn't it happen? What is Itachi going to do to prevent it?



The question is:
Why would Tsunade summon immediately?

My point is that Tsunade won't summon immediately. Itachi will be attacking from the start.



> Because Tsunade wouldn't just stand there and take it. Her relationship and teamwork with Katsuyu are great; she would easily say "HALP, GENJUTSU HAX" and Katsuyu would break her out.



Reading is important when debating; please start to do it.
As I pointed out several times before, Tsunade won't even know that she is in a Genjutsu if Itachi wants to.



> It's also cannon that Tsunade is an external chakra source, meaning she can break Katsuyu out of genjutsu and Katsuyu breaks her out of genjutsu.



If they know that they are being affected by a Genjutsu, that it.
Also, you are disregarding layered Genjutsu.



> Katsuyu is the perfect counter to genjutsu.



It is not.


Katsuyu may not even know that Tsunade is in a Genjutsu.
No counter to Layered Genjutsu.
If Tsukuyomi was available, Katsuyu can't do shit.

As we know, a Bijuu _*is*_ the perfect counter to Genjutsu, summon are just a possibility.



> Because she'll immediately recognize it and tell Katsuyu that she needs to be broken out.



Why would she recognize it?


----------



## Shizune (Jan 1, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> I don't think that.
> What I think is that she isn't going to do it immediately.



Why not? The two times she was put up against powerful opponents she immediately summoned Katsuyu. This is no different.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> How would Tsuande know that _*she*_ is in a Genjutsu?



She has full knowledge and is a highly regarded war veteran. I would think she'd be pretty clued in on genjutsu in general, and now especially his.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> So you really think that your previous post proves that Katsuyu can dispell Itachi Genjutsu?



Clearly all that it takes a surge of chakra from another source.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> You are assuming that:
> 
> Katsuyu knows that Tsuande is in a Genjutsu.



Because Tsunade will announce it.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Tsunade, after being dispelled of the Genjutsu {if she is} will react to an attack made by Itachi to take advantage of the situation.



Dispelling the illusion will only take a second or two, and there's not much Itachi can do in that time.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Even if Katsuyu could dispell the Genjutsu, it doesn't means that Tsunade will have time to react to a bunshin Bakuha or any other shit that Itachi will be using while Tsuande is in the Genjutsu.



Even if? Of course she can. It's completely cannon that an outside source [KATSUYU] and free a genjutsu-caught person [TSUNADE].



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Also, you are just ignoring layered Genjutsu



No I'm not. It's just that all his illusions, which rely on the distortion of Tsunade's chakra flow, will be broken at once.



godtachi said:


> I just want to know how Tsunade will know katsuyu is on genjutsu??the purpose of a good genjutsu is to buy time for the enemy to attack you in the real world,Itachi is the master in this(deidara,genjutsu with sasuke..)



Because Katsuyu will not stay silent and take it. She will tell Tsunade that she needs help.



godtachi said:


> Shizazzle,you won't be able to prove that tsunade will know that katsuyu is in genjutsu(unless you  believe they work like bijuu),and that iatchi can't jump on katsuyu,katsuyu can only throw acid ,she can't use it on her body.



You won't be able to prove that Katsuyu will be unable to request help.

You also can't prove that there is any chance in hell that Itachi is leaping up to a scyscraper without being plenty vulnerable to incoming acid.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Funny how you keep ignoring my arguments.
> 
> Itachi _*controls the summon while they are in Genjutsu*_, at least we saw it when Sasuke managed to get into Manda while Manda was in the Genjutsu.



I don't believe it's outright mind control; that's an entirely different technique altogether. It's making them sense false things, nothing more. Sasuke obviously caused Manda to think there was no incoming threat, causing him to stay there and tank the attack. Itachi will not be able to convince Katsuyu that she should not speak out and request help.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> False; we have seen that Sharingan Genjutsu can affect multiple targets.
> Also, we have also seen that Itachi can use Genjutsu on a target and keep fighting.



Yes, but we've also seen that an outside party can free said trapped person in an instant. Katsuyu and Tsunade can do this to each other, there is no debate on it, it's complete cannon. Itachi's genjutsu will be rendered useless.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Please _*read*_.
> How would they know that they are in a Genjutsu?



Because, in addition to their many, many years of fighting, which surely put plenty of genjutsu experience on their belts, they have complete knowledge of his entire arsenal of techniques.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Can you please start reading?
> _*How would they know that they are in a Genjutsu?*_



Funny thing is, I've gone over their ability to recognize that they're caught in an illusion many times.



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Then why did quote me on that?



I just want to make it clear where I stand on some things are. It's already happened in this thread, as it does in every thread; people get the opinions of others mixed up with mine just because our opinion on the end product is the same,



godtachi said:


> Shizazzle,please tell me how Tsunade heals mental damage??It sisn't something that she has inside her.She uses ninjutsu.And after taking a tsukiyomi,Tsunade will be for sure not able to do a handseal.



You do realize she healed dramatic mental damage on both Sasuke and Kakashi within minutes, right? And I'm relying on her ridiculously high stamina to allow her to heal herself.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Since the time Zetsu did not know what the brothers where talking about in their genjutsu and he only said that they were having a battle of genjutusu ?
> also this for the sleep inducing gen.



We saw nothing except vague dialogue that suggests it would have a sleep effect.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> Any situation against Sasuke he was holding back, I mean Madara spoke of it for 4-5 chapters , about how Itachi loved him and blah blah and how he went to Konoha only to warn the elders.



But what about Kakashi?



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> And since Kisame says he was Surprised that Kakashi didn't die means that he had already seen someone die to it.



But Kakashi, who has a very low pain threshold, lived to be healed by Tsunade.



-= Ziggy Stardust =- said:


> on what basis can you say that ? for Itachi his sharingan heat-chakara sensory ability will make him see Tsunade but how will she spot him ?



The mist isn't so thick that they can't make each other out at all.

This is my final post on the topic. I've responded to everything many different times in many different ways. There's nothing more to say; we're just rephrasing everything we've already said now.

I stand by everything I've said and have backed all my claims up, as has the opposing party. Was a good debate but, like almost every other, it's ended in a complete stalemate, a clash of opposite opinions that cannot agree.


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

^^Shizazzle: all your posts are based on pure speculation.Yet u told me that we don't need speculation and that we had enough feats.U see where the contradiction is??


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Dispelling the illusion will only take a second or two, and there's not much Itachi can do in that time.
> 
> 
> Even if? Of course she can. It's completely cannon that an outside source [KATSUYU] and free a genjutsu-caught person [TSUNADE].
> ...



itachi throws a kunai at her head by the time she dispells the gen jutsu she'd be dead

ya but we dont know if summons can dispell genjutsu

ya and itachi will be listening to them the whole time, and he can put them both under genjutsu at the same time

killing summons isnt that hard im sure itachi can harm it 

serously stop with the acid bull shit, it wont work

we havnt seen summons dispell jutsu for anyone yet.

ok your exagerating 

kakashi is stronger then tsunade

what i have seen kakashi has a very high pain threshold


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Because Katsuyu will not stay silent and take it. She will tell Tsunade that she needs help.



Katsuyu:''Tsunade i'm in a genjutsu,i need help''
never seen such an absurdity,first tell me how she can see she's in a genjutsu??and then we'll move to the second point.


----------



## Creator (Jan 1, 2010)

Can i just argue one point.

godtachi said how will she know shes in a genjutsu. Until now, everyone caught in a genjutsu knew immidiately they were in a genjutsu.

Kurenai.
Kakashi.
Sasuke.
Naruto.
Shikamaru.
Random girl used to lure Jiraiya away. So Jiraiya.
Oro.
Hell all the Shinobis at the Chuunin Exam bar from some of the rookies knew. 

So really. Tsunade will know immidiately the moment shes in it. 

Another point was made about Itachi fighting against Tsunade while shes on Katsuyu. Thats a bit hard isnt it considering Katsuyu can literally absorb Tsunade and even Itachi if he steps on it and stop him from doing jack all. 

Genjutsu wont work on Katsuyu since Tsunade is there, and Katon can be dealt with by splitting up. 



narutoNonepiece said:


> kakashi is stronger then tsunade
> 
> what i have seen kakashi has a very high pain threshold



Kakashi is not stronger then Tsunade. His MS does give him the edge, but IC he leaves that as his last move. 

When have you seen Kakashi's threshold for pain? He spends more time in the hospital then Tsunade does. And shes a medic.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

Creator said:


> Kakashi is not stronger then Tsunade. His MS does give him the edge, but IC he leaves that as his last move.
> 
> When have you seen Kakashi's threshold for pain? He spends more time in the hospital then Tsunade does. And shes a medic.



ok firstly... she is in a coma right now for exausting her chakra supply 
and she has been the hokage for what now 3 years she hasnt been doing anything, so therefore she doesnt need a hospital as much as kakashi does.

kakashi is infact stronger then she is, he was able to fight on par with pain in taijutsu the very pain who fought HM jiryia in taijutsu battle and kakashi was able to do it.

taijutsu kakashi=tsunade
speed kakashi>tsunade
intellegience kakashi>tsunade
ninjutsu kakashi>tsunade
genjutsu kakashi>tsunade
chakra tsunade>kakashi
kakashi has an arensal of jutsu, tsunade is a medic

when he was fighting kakuzu he was being slamed around all over the place, and when he was fighting pain thats all the evidence i need to conclude, his threshold for pain is definetly above average. 

dont under estimate kakashi


----------



## Creator (Jan 1, 2010)

Since i dont want to completely derail this thread. I will respond to this last post revolving around Kakashi VS Tsunade and then stop. 



narutoNonepiece said:


> ok firstly... she is in a coma right now for exausting her chakra supply
> and she has been the hokage for what now 3 years she hasnt been doing anything, so therefore she doesnt need a hospital as much as kakashi does.



Kakashi was dead. 

Tsunade has alot more chakra, and a back up supply. I didnt see Kakashi summon a Boss Summon and then exhaust all his chakra. 

I would say that Akatsuki died under her watch, but thats far fetched. They died while she was Hokage. That sounds better. 



> kakashi is infact stronger then she is, he was able to fight on par with pain in taijutsu the very pain who fought HM jiryia in taijutsu battle and kakashi was able to do it.



Deva Realm and Jiraiya never fought. Although there were hints to it, it was never official.

Kakashi was bullied by Deva Realm and needed help. 



> taijutsu kakashi=tsunade
> speed kakashi>tsunade
> intellegience kakashi>tsunade
> ninjutsu kakashi>tsunade
> ...




*Spoiler*: _Kakashi_ 



Databook statistics (out of 5):
*Ninjutsu: 5*
*Taijutsu: 4.5*
Genjutsu: 4
*Intelligence: 5*
*Strength: 3.5*
*Speed: 4.5*
*Stamina: 3*
Seal Knowledge: 5





*Spoiler*: __ 



Databook Stats (out of 5):
*Ninjutsu: 5*
*Taijutsu: 5*
Genjutsu: 3.5
*Knowledge: 5*
*Power: 5*
*Speed: 3.5*
*Stamina: 4*
Seal: 4




Kakashi is faster then Tsunade. Everything else, Tsunade is better if not tied. 

Keep in mind that Tsunade's is DB2, i believe, and Kakashi's is DB3. Things may have changed.

Overall. They are decently balanced. What does tip the match in Tsunade's favour to the point where Kakashi needs MS, is simply Genesis Rebirth and Katsuyu. Infact, even with MS, Kakashi isnt dealing with Katsuyu.



> when he was fighting kakuzu he was being slamed around all over the place, and when he was fighting pain thats all the evidence i need to conclude, his threshold for pain is definetly above average.
> 
> dont under estimate kakashi



Tsunade got impaled through her rib cage. Had muscles cut, and had a huge cut across her back. 

She also tanked Choo Shinra Tensei. Her threshold > His. Well even in real life females have a much higher threshold for pain. 

And i dont underestimate Kakashi. You underestimate Tsunade. Two different things.


----------



## SharinganSkill (Jan 1, 2010)

Creator said:


> Kakashi was bullied by Deva Realm and needed help.



He sure was, but I would like to see Tsunade against Pein. Her only offensive abilities are Katsuyu (by the way, S-rank shinobi > summon) and strenght when having speed tier 3.5 (and yes she can hax your nervous system, but that doesnt matter since she still needs to touch you, still the same problem). Katsuyu (would be probably there for another villagers, so Tsunade would be alone, but if not, it) would be Shinra Tensei?ed the same way as all the frogs. Then Tsunade wont lay a finger on Deva no matter what. Kakashi at least put there some fight.

I think the whole missconception of Tsunade has reached an epic level. She is maybe the best support character in the series and she?s the best medic, but that is all. She?s not a completely useless fighter, but she?s nowhere close to the top guys. And in every second topic you see "Tsunade yes, she?s better than Kakashi, she?s better than Itachi."  Next time there will be people talking about Gai being the second best medic in the series.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 1, 2010)

Creator said:


> Since i dont want to completely derail this thread. I will respond to this last post revolving around Kakashi VS Tsunade and then stop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ugh dude... he died because he saved chouji

i agree that she has more chakra

well deva realm is the strongest out of all the pain bodies and that just proves how strong kakashi is he was able to go toe to toe with it with out any info, what really messed kakashi up was asura path. pain also said he would kill kakashi because failing to kill someone like him would mean trouble for him, while tsunade who is the hokage...well he didnt even bother she was no threat to him.

and kakashi has been improving, and i think his stats should go up in the next databook.madara himself has commented that kakashi is fast, and numerous shinobi aswell. nothing probably changed for tsunade since she's been doing paper work the past 3 years. she probably lost strengh

he can kill her with MS he just just warps her head into another dimention, he wins. his accuracy with it is incredible since he was able to warp a high speed moving pin to save chouji

Genesis Rebirth shortens her life and doesnt seem to last very long. the only feat she has shown is barley owning a crippled orchimaru with the help of jiryia and naruto.

kabuto was bitch slapping her and almost killed her if it wasnt for naruto using rasengan

she might have Katsuyu but he's got his ninja hounds. 

imagine tsunade toke kakashi's place agaist deva path, i wouldnt think she would of fared any better then kakashi did. she would of got one shotted by this 

and also she could barley react to asura path


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Jan 1, 2010)

narutoNonepiece said:


> ok firstly... she is in a coma right now for exausting her chakra supply



If becoming comatose because one defended their village is a laughable thing, I don't think you're worth taking seriously.

Also, if you want to play like that, Kakashi was killed because he exhausted his chakra supply.

I'm pretty sure comatose > death.



> and she has been the hokage for what now 3 years she hasnt been doing anything, so therefore she doesnt need a hospital as much as kakashi does.



How about running a damn village?

How about bringing said village back to prosperity after it was at less than a third of its normal power after Orochimaru's invasion?

How about healing the injured villagers?

How about turning Sakura into something useful, compared to what she was before?

How about actively pursuing Akatsuki, while all other countries ignored them?

Again, if you think she's been doing "nothing", I'm not going to take you seriously, and I doubt others will too.



> kakashi is infact *stronger* then she is, he was able to fight on par with pain in taijutsu the very pain who fought HM jiryia in taijutsu battle and kakashi was able to do it.



Bad choice of words. Physically, she is unparalled in strength (HM Jiraiya and SM Naruto come close). A better word would've been more versatile, but she's only been in a single fight. I'm not going to accept that as all she has, but we'll have to see if she displays more.



> taijutsu kakashi=tsunade



Tsunade > Kakashi in taijutsu. It's more of her forté, in terms of offense. He's more of a ninjutsu user.



> speed kakashi>tsunade



Fair enough.



> intellegience kakashi>tsunade



No. It takes high intelligence to be able to conquer the limitations of the body and provide yourself a form of immortality, even if temporarily. He's shown to be tactically smart, but then again, she's only been in one fight, so it's not really fair to put all his fights (in which he can show off his tactics) against her single one.



> ninjutsu kakashi>tsunade



Fair enough.



> genjutsu kakashi>tsunade



Even so, she has the perfect chakra control to negate it. Shouldn't even be much of a factor.



> chakra tsunade>kakashi



You mean Village-healing Tsunade >>>>>>>>>> Kakashi in terms of chakra. And she also has her second source of it.



> kakashi has an arensal of jutsu, tsunade is a medic



Who can kill in a single hit. Not to be taken lightly.



> when he was fighting kakuzu he was being slamed around all over the place, and when he was fighting pain thats all the evidence i need to conclude, his threshold for pain is definetly above average.



She took her muscles in her upper arms and lower legs being cut, as well as a beating from Kabuto while immobile, then took would-be fatal stabbings from Orochimaru's legendary kusanagi sword. She's no slouch in regards to her threshold for pain either.



> dont under estimate kakashi



You heavily underestimated Tsunade.

And honestly...when did this become about Tsunade vs Kakashi?


----------



## Soul (Jan 2, 2010)

Shizazzle said:


> Why not? The two times she was put up against powerful opponents she immediately summoned Katsuyu. This is no different.



This is entirely different.
In those scenarios, summoning Katsuyu was the only thing that she could do to compete.



> She has full knowledge and is a highly regarded war veteran. I would think she'd be pretty clued in on genjutsu in general, and now especially his.



Sasuke still had full knowledge {and much more experience in Genjutsu} and he got tricked at least once by Itachi.

This is mere specualtion.



> Clearly all that it takes a surge of chakra from another source.



What about the possibility of Layered Genjutsu?
What about the possibility of Katsuku being fucked by Genjutsu?

You are also disregarding that, even if Katsuyu manages to break it, Itachi may have time to attack her directly, causing severe damage that Tsunade may not be able to heal, like cutting her head.



> Because Tsunade will announce it.



Tsunade {most likely} won't even know that she is in a Genjutsu.



> Dispelling the illusion will only take a second or two, and there's not much Itachi can do in that time.



You are saying that high level shinobi can't blitz a defenseless person in 2 seconds at less than 40 m?

That is ridiculous.



> Even if? Of course she can. It's completely cannon that an outside source [KATSUYU] and free a genjutsu-caught person [TSUNADE].



First, you failed to reply at that quote.
Second, I know that it may do it, but I don't really think that Tsunade iwll be able to perform it.



> Because Katsuyu will not stay silent and take it. She will tell Tsunade that she needs help.



Please learn to read. If you already know how; do it.
Katsuyu won't have knowledge of it being in a Genjutsu.

If you have a problem with that address it, don't ignore it.



> I stand by everything I've said and have backed all my claims up, as has the opposing party. Was a good debate but, like almost every other, it's ended in a complete stalemate, a clash of opposite opinions that cannot agree.



False; most of your posts are speculation or scenarios in which Tsunade may win.

The battle won't happen just as you say so just because it gives your character a better chance to win.

Bloodlusted Tsunade won't summon Katsuyu immediately against a fighter without Summons; and we have seen it before; she will most likely go after him for the kill by herself, which Itachi would take as a shot to fuck her.

Bloodlusted Itachi won't "lol exploding clone speedblitz kill" or "lol Shunshin+kunai kill", either.

Now, I am not saying that I am completely right, but you have failed to give proof to your claims, while {In my opinion} I have provided evidence

You call this stalemate?
I call this a surrender from you.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

narutoNonepiece said:


> ugh dude... he died because he saved chouji
> 
> i agree that she has more chakra
> 
> ...



...and the speculation flies!

First off, your second link is incredibly skewed. This is the Tsunade that just sustained an entire village after summoning a boss slug. The fact that she wasn't dead is a huge endurance feat in itself. The fact that she still managed to dodge Asura realm is also quite a laudatory thing to as Asura has some decent speed.

...you're speculating that Tsunade hasn't improved in the last three years, you're speculating that Kakashi has, you're speculating that Pain didn't view Tsunade as a threat or someone necessary to kill... 

You also aren't acknowleding the handicap Tsunade had during the sannin fight. She was hemophobic, and fighting an elite Jounin who had complete knowledge on her as well as a crippled (yet lethal) Orochimaru. When you word it like that it doesn't seem like a raging alcoholic who was 20+ years out of practice fared too badly.



Yeah I just fueled this off-topic fire, but it really does grind my gears to see Tsunade and her few feats skewed and taken out of context. I agree that Kakashi is incredibly skilled, however Tsunade has earned her title. 

She is perhaps the only ninja in the manga who can OHKO basically anyone and OHKO boss summons. She can rearrange the landscape, and heal victims of an MS genjutsu that is S-ranked in seconds. She has one of the largest chakra resevoirs as well as a back up. She can sustain thousands of villagers and has a slug that can shrug off eight-tailed Kyuubi chakra and CST etc.

These all make her a fairly perfect counter to Itachi. His genjutsu and speed should be fairly nullified by the location. His strongest attacks are banned, and the mist's effectiveness will be compounded by his blindness. His AIDs and stamina have always been his big problems. With knowledge, Tsunade will know to outlast him and avoid eyecontact.


----------



## Soul (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> ...you're speculating that Tsunade hasn't improved in the last three years, you're speculating that Kakashi has



he isn't speculating; that is what we saw in the manga.



> you're speculating that Pain didn't view Tsunade as a threat or someone necessary to kill...



It was clear that Tsunade wasn't the main target; Pain target was Naruto.
No speculation here either.



> You also aren't acknowleding the handicap Tsunade had during the sannin fight.



Everyone was handicapped.


Yeah I just fueled this off-topic fire, but it really does grind my gears to see Tsunade and her few feats skewed and taken out of context. I agree that Kakashi is incredibly skilled, however Tsunade has earned her title. 


*Spoiler*: _Hype for Tsunade_ 





> She is perhaps the only ninja in the manga who can OHKO basically anyone and OHKO boss summons. She can rearrange the landscape, and heal victims of an MS genjutsu that is S-ranked in seconds. She has one of the largest chakra resevoirs as well as a back up. She can sustain thousands of villagers and has a slug that can shrug off eight-tailed Kyuubi chakra and CST etc.






Good feats; however, this doesn't means that Itachi can't kill her.



> These all make her a fairly perfect counter to Itachi.



False.
She doesn't has any answer to MS Jutsus; that is why they are banned.

Also, no one of the people arguing on Tsunade's favor have proved a viable counter for normal Genjutsu, let alone layered.


Katsuyu is a maybe. And that is if you assume that Itachi won't do shit about Katsuyu + Tsunade summoning it immediately.



> His genjutsu and speed should be fairly nullified by the location.



?????
Why would Genjutsu be nullified by the location?



> His strongest attacks are banned, and the mist's effectiveness will be compounded by his blindness.



The mist was created by Zabuza...


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> he isn't speculating; that is what we saw in the manga.


We haven't seen anything to suggest Tsunade has declined in strength.



> It was clear that Tsunade wasn't the main target; Pain target was Naruto.
> No speculation here either.


While this is true, it certainly didn't stop Pain from killing anyone he could get his hands on. There's no reason to suggest he spared Tsunade because he felt she wasn't a threat. If so, why bother attempting to kill Chouji? Because he's a threat?



> Everyone was handicapped.


The degree of handicapping is debateable, though I would argue Tsunade was by far the most hindered. Also, this does not change the fact that Tsunade fought 2 on 1 for quite some time- she also ended the fight.


The sharingan genjutsu would be quite difficult to use in the mist. Although it wouldn't be as opaque as it was with Zabuza's involvement, it would still be thick enough to make distinguishing someone's eyes quite difficult. This is especially true of someone who has enough sense to konw not to look in Itachi's eyes. 

Tsunade's excellent chakra control should allow her to break most genjutsu by herself, if Katsuyu is summoned she could act as shield for the mere seconds it would likely take for Tsunade to dispell an illusion.


----------



## Soul (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> We haven't seen anything to suggest Tsunade has declined in strength.



Nor something that make her look stronger.



> While this is true, it certainly didn't stop Pain from killing anyone he could get his hands on. There's no reason to suggest he spared Tsunade because he felt she wasn't a threat.



Naruto protected her.



> If so, why bother attempting to kill Chouji? Because he's a threat?



Indeed.




> The degree of handicapping is debateable, though I would argue Tsunade was by far the most hindered.



I would argue that Orochimaru was the most handicapped.



> Also, this does not change the fact that Tsunade fought 2 on 1 for quite some time- she also ended the fight.



When?
If I recall correctly, Orochimaru didn't attacked at all.



> The sharingan genjutsu would be quite difficult to use in the mist.



Which mist?
There is no mist without Zabuza there.



> Tsunade's excellent chakra control should allow her to break most genjutsu by herself, if Katsuyu is summoned she could act as shield for the mere seconds it would likely take for Tsunade to dispell an illusion.



Again, speculating to make better Tsunade's chances.

What if she doesn't?
She will die; and, most likely, that is what will happen.


----------



## NoBodyFamous (Jan 2, 2010)

> Tsunade's excellent chakra control should allow her to break most genjutsu by herself, if Katsuyu is summoned she could act as shield for the mere seconds it would likely take for Tsunade to dispell an illusion.



Tsukuyomi is not like all other genjutsus. I think it will take a lot more to dispell it.. 

But from what i've read over here is that many underastimate Tsunade.. And describe her as an old useless hag.. while that's not true.. Anyways personally I think that she's not capable of beating Itachi in a one on one fight.. And that's not a shame because you can count the ones who can beat him one on one on one hand..

*never used the word one that much :amazed


----------



## Soul (Jan 2, 2010)

NoBodyFamous said:


> Tsukuyomi is not like all other genjutsus. I think it will take a lot more to dispell it..



There is no time to dispell it; Tsukuyomi's power affects the opponent instantaneously.


----------



## NoBodyFamous (Jan 2, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> There is no time to dispell it; Tsukuyomi's power affects the opponent instantaneously.



Didn't know about that..


----------



## Soul (Jan 2, 2010)

NoBodyFamous said:


> Didn't know about that..



You can see Kakashi stating it himself  {Bottom left panel}.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Nor something that make her look stronger.


...exactly.




> Indeed.


Not information that even marginally hindered Pain



> I would argue that Orochimaru was the most handicapped.


Irrelevant, but I'd say that since he had 20+ years more time to create jutsu and stay in shape he would definitely be less handicapped. He also had full knowledge on Tsunade's phobias as well as an elite jounin helping him.



> When?
> If I recall correctly, Orochimaru didn't attacked at all.


You don't recall him stabbing Tsunade multiple times with the kunsangi sword only to be knocked aside and eventually bulldozed by a Tsunade-punch? 



> Which mist?
> There is no mist without Zabuza there.


I acknowledged that the mist would be less opaque. However, it is still the village hidden in the mist and even in natural mists it can be quite difficult to perceive even large objects (like cars, or buildings)- seeing something as specific as an eye would be debateable at best. This is assuming Tsunade's attempting to look Itachi in the eyes. With full knowledge she won't be.


----------



## Soul (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Not information that even marginally hindered Pain



Full Knowledge from Deva didn't hindered Nagato?
That is ridiculous.



> You don't recall him stabbing Tsunade multiple times with the kunsangi sword only to be knocked aside and eventually bulldozed by a Tsunade-punch?



That wasn't 2 on 1
Jiraiya and Naruto were helping her....



> I acknowledged that the mist would be less opaque. However, it is still the village hidden in the mist and even in natural mists it can be quite difficult to perceive even large objects (like cars, or buildings)- seeing something as specific as an eye would be debateable at best. This is assuming Tsunade's attempting to look Itachi in the eyes. With full knowledge she won't be.





You can't see any see of mist here; while you can see it immediately after Zabuza got there.


When he is almost dead, there isn't mist either.


There is nothing to suggest that there will be mist in this scenario other that speculation, when I just showed that, normally, there isn't any mist.


----------



## Creator (Jan 2, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10: I didnt read through most of your posts but i read one or two points i completely disagree with. 

1) Everyone, including the most Genjutsu ignorant, ie Naruto, knew immidiately they were in a genjutsu. Katsuyu seems to semi function by channeling Tsunade's chakra, so Genjutsu wont even hit her since she has two sets of chakra running through her.

2) She can OHKO most people. Remember she doesnt only possess physical strenght, but her chakra enhanced strenght is monsterous. MONSTEROUS. Its not farfetched to say that a person who gets hit would die. Infact, if it wasnt for Oro's fake body and his jelly like physic, he would have died, from one punch.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 2, 2010)

1.No,sasuke never htought he was in genjutsu(until weird staff started to happen,his friends turning to itachi,itachi flying..);manda no,sasuke(in Tsukiyomi)no,Deidara no.The genjutsu can only be noticed when weird staff start happening or when it's a binding genjutsu....
2.It's impossible for Tsunade to hit Itachi,impossible


----------



## Creator (Jan 2, 2010)

Nope. Everyone realizes they are in genjutsu immidiately. Genjutsu makes things weird. Thats what it is. Its meant to confuse you. 

So yah. 

Actually explain Kabuto's genjutsu at the Chuunin Exam. The Jounins, Chuunins, SAKURA and Shikamaru knew immidiately they were in genjutsu. Even Gai knew. 

So genjutsu is a lolzworthy technique used by Itachi fans to hype Itachi.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 2, 2010)

^^No,i gave you evidence where guys don't know they are in genjutsu immediately,why are you denying it??


----------



## Creator (Jan 2, 2010)

What? Everyone who was in a genjutsu knew immidiately.

Kurenai knew. 
Naruto, Kabuto, Sakura and Sasuke did in the Chuunin exam.
Shikamaru, SAKURA, Gai, Kakashi and other jounins/chuunins knew immidiately.
Sasuke and Sakura knew about Oro's killer instinct. 
Kakashi knew immidiately when he fought Kakashi.
Kurenai knew immidiately when she was in genjutsu by Itachi. 
KISAME knew immidiately when Kurenai trapped her. 
Asuma knew when Kurenai engaged her genjutsu. 

I think thats all part one.  Dont get me started on part 2. Its just one big Uchiha genjutsu. 

But yes. You can see. Characters who are completely Genjutsu ignorant, ie Naruto and Kisame and Asuma knew immidiately when they were in genjutsu. They knew it before the opponent could really do anything. 

So i am sorry if i dont believe the 'Lolz Genjutsu' argument.


----------



## Rampage (Jan 2, 2010)

Naruto knew he was in genjutsu right?


----------



## Chainer (Jan 2, 2010)

Not immediately, no. It was only after he killed the two 'bunshin' and they dispersed that he realized it.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> What? Everyone who was in a genjutsu knew immidiately.
> 
> Kurenai knew.
> Naruto, Kabuto, Sakura and Sasuke did in the Chuunin exam.
> ...



That doesn't necessarily mean they can counter it.


----------



## Creator (Jan 2, 2010)

You need good chakra control to defeat Genjutsu. Tsunade has the best chakra control in the manga.

Breaking out of genjutsu is nothing for her the moment she realizes shes in it.


----------



## Rampage (Jan 2, 2010)

Chainer said:


> Not immediately, no. It was only after he killed the two 'bunshin' and they dispersed that he realized it.



Indeed, i was trying to point out that they don't realize as quickily as Creator was stating them to.


----------



## Chainer (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> You need good chakra control to defeat Genjutsu. Tsunade has the best chakra control in the manga.
> 
> *Breaking out of genjutsu is nothing for her the moment she realizes shes in it.*



And Itachi can make it so she doesn't, as shown against Naruto _and_ Sasuke.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> What? Everyone who was in a genjutsu knew immidiately.
> 
> Kurenai knew. Kuranai knew because she was trapped in a big tree appearing from nowhere.
> Naruto, Kabuto, Sakura and Sasuke did in the Chuunin exam.Waw,kabuto saw there were lot of weird guys coming and not dying even if they were stabbed
> ...



Now,let's see:
*Itachi vs naruto:* ,he knew it until 

*Itachi vs Deidara:* 
 ,and if itachi didn't interrupt it,Deidara would've been dead..

Sasuke vs Itachi didn't know he was in a genjutsu...

Even the reader can't know that a genjutsu was casted until something strange happened,that's the point of a genjutsu.


----------



## Creator (Jan 2, 2010)

uzumaki lee said:


> Naruto knew he was in genjutsu right?





Chainer said:


> Not immediately, no. It was only after he killed the two 'bunshin' and they dispersed that he realized it.





uzumaki lee said:


> Indeed, i was trying to point out that they don't realize as quickily as Creator was stating them to.





godtachi said:


> Even the reader can't know that a genjutsu was casted until something strange happened,that's the point of a genjutsu.





 This is Naruto.











 Actually, i will give you this one. He three 3 kunais this time.









The effect of Genjutsu, bar from the second Naruto one, is immidiate. Infact, even in that one Naruto saw Kakashi charge so the Genjutsu was already in action.

The effect of the genjutsu is immidiate. Anyone with know of genjutsu, with a good presense of mind and good chakra control can break free. 



Chainer said:


> And Itachi can make it so she doesn't, as shown against Naruto _and_ Sasuke.



His only real chance is to cut her hands off.

But with full knowledge, i highly question how Itachi will trap her in Genjutsu. 

Thats all i am saying. Genjutsu wont work on someone who can easily break free of it. 

With that said. I wont debate genjutsu anyone. It gets on my nerves.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 2, 2010)

^^Are you doing this on purpose???Giving scans don't help your case since i told you what happened:In all cases,Something weird happened:

1.Sasuke being kunai'd in the head,and being able to speak.
2.Naruto knew nothing,he just asked because again weird things happened.
3.yeah,when feathers start flying in the area,kakashi and Gai won't know it's a gnejutsu(again somethign weird)
4.When Hashirama brought darkness to the area,Hiruzen will believe it's an eclipse rather than a genjutsu,right??
5.Jiriaya didn't discover the genjutsu immediately,the girl must have behaved strangely so that Jiriaya suspects somethhing
6.Binding genjutsu,if i can't magically move,how would i explain it??My muscles start hating me,or genjutsu??
7.Deidara didn't know he was in a genjutsu until itachi showed him(he would've died otherwise)I explained this in my previous post 7
 I thought you were more sensible,but i was clearly wrong


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> This is Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with what your saying -however, experts like Itachi generally try not to make strange things happen in his Genjutsu so that his opponent doesnt realise that they are in one. Tsunade has exellent chakra control, the best in the series. However we cant be sure whether or not Tsunade has good experience of Genjutsu, and has experience in knowing when she is one.Needless to say they are at long range ,so catching her in one is unlikely.


----------



## Panos (Jan 2, 2010)

By the way why is everyone focusing on Genjutsu. He can destroy her with a kunai+bushin+speed too.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 2, 2010)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> By the way why is everyone focusing on Genjutsu. He can destroy her with a kunai+bushin+speed too.


At long range?While Tsunade sits atop Katsuyu? theres a 0% chance that would give him the win.


----------



## Panos (Jan 2, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> At long range?While Tsunade sits atop Katsuyu? theres a 0% chance that would give him the win.



What?


----------



## Highgoober (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> You need good chakra control to defeat Genjutsu. Tsunade has the best chakra control in the manga.
> 
> Breaking out of genjutsu is nothing for her the moment she realizes shes in it.



All medics need perfect chakra control, which means she's actually tied with every other half decent medic out there. lol


----------



## Avengel (Jan 2, 2010)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> By the way why is everyone focusing on Genjutsu. He can destroy her with a kunai+bushin+speed too.



90% of the thread is itachi  + genjutsu nuthuggin/worshippin.

tsunade got this one imo


----------



## Panos (Jan 2, 2010)

Avengel said:


> 90% of the thread is itachi  + genjutsu nuthuggin/worshippin.
> 
> tsunade got this one imo



Tsunade got this? With what?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 2, 2010)

Roka said:


> All medics need perfect chakra control, which means she's actually tied with every other half decent medic out there. lol


She is the best medic in the world,she can heal wounds most Medic Nin would consider a lost cause. On top of that she has her super punches, you dont see Ino using super chakra enhanced punches . She is by far the best at chakra control in the series.



Peaceful Uchiha said:


> What?



Yup , no chance of a Kunai or clone reaching Tsunade when shes on top of Katsuyu at long range. As well as that, speed doesnt mean anything at long range. Even Itachi will have trouble dodging Acid Slime Bombs.


----------



## Panos (Jan 2, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Yup , no chance of a Kunai or clone reaching Tsunade when shes on top of Katsuyu at long range. As well as that, speed doesnt mean anything at long range. Even Itachi will have trouble dodging Acid Slime Bombs.



40 metres is long distance?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 2, 2010)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> 40 metres is long distance?



Yeh it is.


----------



## Highgoober (Jan 2, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> She is the best medic in the world,she can heal wounds most Medic Nin would consider a lost cause. On top of that she has her super punches, you dont see Ino using super chakra enhanced punches . She is by far the best at chakra control in the series.



Irrelevant.

All medics need perfect chakra control.

Her having more skillful application of medical techniques and being more knowledgeable in her field than other medics doesn't mean she has better chakra control.

Ino doesn't use the punches because she wasn't taught to, Sakura can use them and she's a genjutsu type, does that mean she's got better chakra control than Tsunade?

No, because all medics have perfect chakra control otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to mess around trying to heal people and what not. Just because she's more skillful doesn't mean she has better control, it just means she's better.


----------



## Panos (Jan 2, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Yeh it is.



Nope. Actually it is medium distance that can be covered in seconds. Especially if that one is Itachi.


----------



## Avengel (Jan 2, 2010)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Nope. Actually it is medium distance that can be covered in seconds. Especially if that one is Itachi.



disadvantage for itachi
its 40 meters upward..not just streight forward.
besides that itachi is nearly blind so good luck aimin with the kunai.
at same time u have to dodge the summons attacks.


----------



## Goobtachi (Jan 2, 2010)

^^ Itachi could deflect all sasuke's shuriken


----------



## Creator (Jan 2, 2010)

Roka said:


> All medics need perfect chakra control, which means she's actually tied with every other half decent medic out there. lol



What? 

Roka you should know not to question me. 

And Tsunade has the best chakra control. Its manga fact.


----------



## Federer (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> What?
> 
> Roka you should know not to question me.
> 
> And Tsunade has the best chakra control. *Its manga fact.*



Don't remember it, manga page, please?


----------



## Creator (Jan 2, 2010)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> Don't remember it, manga page, please?



Its not a page exactly. Rather proven by the Manga.

Medics need perfect Chakra control.

She has alot of chakra. 

Her style of fighting requires perfect chakra control. Sakura proved it. Tsunade is just ALOT better then Sakura. The difference between Sakura and Tsunade is the difference between a tadpole and Naruto in Sage mode.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> The difference between Sakura and Tsunade is the difference between a tadpole and Naruto in Sage mode.



your exagerating

sakura was said to have the potentail to surpass tsunade, i would say sakura is about 30% of tsunade


----------



## Federer (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> Its not a page exactly. Rather proven by the Manga.
> 
> Medics need perfect Chakra control.
> 
> ...



Basically you pulled that statement out of your ass, so to speak?

Sensor type shinobi have excellent chakra control, Karin (on screen) can even check her own chakra and others and see if they are in a genjutsu and if needed she can even hide her own chakra. Shi doesn't have more impressive feats than Karin when it comes to being a sensor, but he also has great chakra control, he can use genjutsu, which requires very good chakra control and like I said, he's a sensor and a medic. (Medic, Sensor, Genjutsu user)

And even Shi was paralyzed after witnessing Sasuke's genjutsu (whether it was a MS genjutsu or not). 

If Itachi shunshin's towards Tsunade, just like how Sasuke did against Danzou, it's very hard for Tsunade to NOT LOOK into Itachi's eyes, even with knowledge. 

Having good chakra control doesn't mean shit anymore, sorry.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> Basically you pulled that statement out of your ass, so to speak?
> 
> Sensor type shinobi have excellent chakra control, Karin (on screen) can even check her own chakra and others and see if they are in a genjutsu and if needed she can even hide her own chakra. Shi doesn't have more impressive feats than Karin when it comes to being a sensor, but he also has great chakra control, he can use genjutsu, which requires very good chakra control and like I said, he's a sensor and a medic. (Medic, Sensor, Genjutsu user)
> 
> ...



I don't recall any scan stating sensors require perfect chakra control- I do know I see it stated alot but could you be so kind as to post it.?

...yeah I also don't recall a scan stating genjutsu users all have perfect chakra control either.

It's a little comical that you claim having perfect chakra control means very little. I would point you towards the beginning of the manga where Sakura explains why it's important, but I'm far too lazy. I'll suffice to say that Tsunade's style revolves around her flawless chakra control. That's the only reason her strength is signature to her and Sakura. If it was easy or 'didn't mean shit,' than the entire Narutoverse could easily copy her strength. There's no secret to how it works, and Kakashi has seen it with his sharingan.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Ok what is this "having good chakra control" bullshit?

It seems Tsunade fans are more willing to use speculation and hype than actual feats. When was it ever stated that medic ninjas are good at dispelling genjutsu?

It never has.


Shii was a *medic ninja, a genjutsu user and a sensor type*. And he wasn't a pushover. He was one of Raikages body guards.

Being a genjutsu type(something tsunade isn't), he should have some way of knwoing how to counter genjutsu.
Being a sensor type, he should know whensomeones chakra is fluctuating
Being a medic type, he should have good chakra control. He was such a good medic he stopped Raikages amputated arm from bleeding. Yet it was in half.

He had three ways of countering a genjutsu.

Yet he was one shotted by a *three tomoe *sharingan Sasuke. From over 20 ft away. It completely paralyzed his body and he wasn't able to do anything.

Sharingan genjutsu is on a different level.


Also, people realize tsukiyomi happens in one second right? No one in the manga is dispelling a genjutsu in one second by themselves. By the time katsuya realizes she is in a genjutsu she'd be dead.

And before anyone brings up Hachibi, you should realize that Hachibi is part of Killerbee's mind. He knows when a genjutsu is coming, therefore he could dispell it.


Tsukiyomi is her downfall. She isn't dispelling it.


When someone get's me a page showing that good chakra control dispells genjutsu, we have the Shii moment to counter that claim.


And this is besides the fact that she won't touch him.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

Well you're speculating that Shii's a 'genjutsu type', you're also speculating that sensors have chakra control necessary to dispell genjutsu. You're also speculating the distance...

Unlike Shii, Tsunade's chakra control really cannot be questioned. Also, according to Jiraiya you can break genjutsu with decent chakra control. Sharingan genjutsu is no exception. Especially in the mist and with knowledge, I see no reason Tsunade would look Itachi in the eyes. 

I agree that if she happens to stare intently into Itachi's eyes and wait, that Tsyukiyomi would indeed by incredibly hard to endure.


----------



## Highgoober (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> What?
> 
> Roka you should know not to question me.
> 
> And Tsunade has the best chakra control. Its manga fact.



Prove it then.



Creator said:


> Its not a page exactly. Rather proven by the Manga.
> 
> Medics need perfect Chakra control.
> 
> ...



All medics need perfect control, you can't get _better than perfect_ because that would be an oxymoron.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Well you're speculating that Shii's a 'genjutsu type', you're also speculating that sensors have chakra control necessary to dispell genjutsu. You're also speculating the distance...
> 
> Unlike Shii, Tsunade's chakra control really cannot be questioned. Also, according to Jiraiya you can break genjutsu with decent chakra control. Sharingan genjutsu is no exception. Especially in the mist and with knowledge, I see no reason Tsunade would look Itachi in the eyes.
> 
> I agree that if she happens to stare intently into Itachi's eyes and wait, that Tsyukiyomi would indeed by incredibly hard to endure.



1. I never speculated sensors have good chakra control.
2. Shii said "I can't believe I lost out in genjutsu". He was a genjutsu type.
3. 20 ft is extremely generous.

No one is questioning Tsunades chakra control. Also, if everyone with decent chakra control broke genjutsu I see no reason why Shii was affected. Go ahead and say that Tsunade is better at it, but you still have no proof. Shii stopped an arm that was cut in half from bleedig. He was a good medic, like it or not.

If she doesn't look into Itachi's eyes, it becomes harder than it already is. Especially if she wants to use hand to hand combat. It's not as easy as it looks.

If she get's caught in tsukiyomi. She loses. End of story.


----------



## Federer (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> I don't recall any scan stating sensors require perfect chakra control- I do know I see it stated alot but could you be so kind as to post it.?
> 
> ...yeah I also don't recall a scan stating genjutsu users all have perfect chakra control either.
> 
> It's a little comical that you claim having perfect chakra control means very little. I would point you towards the beginning of the manga where Sakura explains why it's important, but I'm far too lazy. I'll suffice to say that Tsunade's style revolves around her flawless chakra control. That's the only reason her strength is signature to her and Sakura. If it was easy or 'didn't mean shit,' than the entire Narutoverse could easily copy her strength. There's no secret to how it works, and Kakashi has seen it with his sharingan.



Jiraiya's explanation of genjutsu, to Naruto:





He basically tells Naruto that a genjutsu user controls the opponents chakra and creates illusions, it requires serious skill. 

About sensor types, you are right, I looked and couldn't find any manga panel to back me up, however, a sensor type can sense when someone messes up with their chakra or someone else his chakra. See Karin. 

Shi is a medic, thus he must have good chakra control, like Tsunade, no?



> Well you're speculating that Shii's a 'genjutsu type',



Are you serious? Shi used 1 offensive jutsu, which was a genjutsu. Calling him a taijutsu type of ninja for example, is based on nothing. 

A medic, sensor and a genjutsu user, and still couldn't move after a three tomoe sharingan genjutsu (or so it seems). 

Even Orochimaru, one of the Densetsu no Sannin (like Tsunade) couldn't break the basic Sharingan genjutsu. Why would Tsunade be able to do it? Because her fanboys claim she can, based on nothing?

In the midst of the battle, if they are close, like Danzou versus Sasuke, Tsunade can look into Itachi's eyes, she has not trained (nothing hints it) to look to people's abdomen.


----------



## Kai (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:
			
		

> Also, according to Jiraiya you can break genjutsu with decent chakra control. Sharingan genjutsu is no exception.


You need to drop the nonsense and wake up. Itachi made Deidara experience such comfort and delusion in the confines of the genjutsu that he was about to commit suicide with joy. Itachi caught Sasuke's 3 tomoe Sharingan in a genjutsu _stacked upon_ another genjutsu. 

Chakra control, genjutsu expertise, or other 'tips' similarly fail to impress. Orochimaru who scores a perfect 5 in genjutsu was facing mobility problems when face to face with Itachi's genjutsu. Itachi left no room for error and cut off his hand the instant he sensed resistance. This isn't even mentioning Tsukuyomi which is straight up *unbreakable* without Sharingan or bijuu aid.

Tsunade will be drowning on borrowed time through every stage of the fight and on major struggles just to keep up.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Sensors don't have to be good at chakra control. 

They should be able to tell when their opponents chakra is fluctuating. Yet Sasuke one shotted.


----------



## Federer (Jan 2, 2010)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Sensors don't have to be good at chakra control.
> 
> They should be able to tell when their opponents chakra is fluctuating. Yet Sasuke one shotted.



Karin checked her own chakra, maybe she's very talented and not your average sensor ninja, however, if a sensor can sense chakra from miles away, why not their own chakra?


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

What Kai said.

It doesn't even matter if she breaks the genjutsu. Itachi was able to cast multiple layered genjutsus on Sasuke, even after he saw through them with his sharingan. Break through one, and you are in another.

He doesn't waste time. Once she's in it, he's going to be casting more just in case. He doesn't just stand there watching her struggle for the lawls.

Orochimaru was bitchslapped by a genjutsu that wasn't a tsukiyomi.


Tsukiyomi rapes her. And she has no way to break it.

Even if her chakra control helped her break genjutsu, she isn't breaking the strongest genjutsu in tne manga in one second. The time limit before your mental breakdown.


----------



## Creator (Jan 2, 2010)

Roka said:


> Prove it then.
> 
> All medics need perfect control, you can't get _better than perfect_ because that would be an oxymoron.



So she has perfect control. She wastes no chakra. 

Thats all you need. And ofcourse you can get better then perfect. You can alway achieve 110%. That increase becomes 100% since 100% is the base. 

And i didnt hyperbole the difference between Sakura and Tsunade. Sakura isnt close to Tsunade in any manor. 



> Basically you pulled that statement out of your ass, so to speak?



No. The manga clearly hints to it. 



> Sensor type shinobi have excellent chakra control, Karin (on screen) can even check her own chakra and others and see if they are in a genjutsu and if needed she can even hide her own chakra. Shi doesn't have more impressive feats than Karin when it comes to being a sensor, but he also has great chakra control, he can use genjutsu, which requires very good chakra control and like I said, he's a sensor and a medic. (Medic, Sensor, Genjutsu user)



Medics and sensors are different fields. 



> And even Shi was paralyzed after witnessing Sasuke's genjutsu (whether it was a MS genjutsu or not).



Actually i am almost certain it was a MS genjutsu. It was all dark and what not. Shi was distracted and thats when Sasuke caught him. 



> If Itachi shunshin's towards Tsunade, just like how Sasuke did against Danzou, it's very hard for Tsunade to NOT LOOK into Itachi's eyes, even with knowledge.



I dont get it. If Itachi gets that close, why would he use Genjutsu? 

Infact in all the fights we have seen Itachi starts with a flashy genjutsu. Something Tsunade can deal with especially since she has full knowledge.



> Having good chakra control doesn't mean shit anymore, sorry.



Ofcourse it does. 

Great chakra control = No genjutsu.


----------



## Federer (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> Great chakra control = No genjutsu.



Tell that to Shi.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

> Great chakra control = No genjutsu.



So if Madara managed to cast a Tsukiyomi off the moon, Tsunade would be the only one unaffected?


----------



## Creator (Jan 2, 2010)

♠Ace♠ said:


> So if Madara managed to cast a Tsukiyomi off the moon, Tsunade would be the only one unaffected?



Your assuming Madara will do it.


----------



## Federer (Jan 2, 2010)

♠Ace♠ said:


> So if Madara managed to cast a Tsukiyomi off the moon, Tsunade would be the only one unaffected?



Obviously. 

His "masterplan" to put everyone in a genjutsu is useless, there's Tsunade, no? The savior of the manga, with the BEST CHOKE-RA CONTROL IN THE WORLD, yippieee yeah, fuck yeah.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

> Actually *i am almost certain it was a MS genjutsu*. It was all dark and what not. Shi was distracted and thats when Sasuke caught him.



Stopped taking you seriously.

Go back and read the manga, then make your case.




Oh and again.

You don't have to make _direct_ eye contact.


Shii casually glanced over in Sasuke's vague area and was caught in a genjutsu that ended up paralyzing him. I'm not even sure eye contact is clear at that distance.


----------



## Kai (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> Actually i am almost certain it was a MS genjutsu. It was all dark and what not.


Your conscience tells you it was MS genjutsu because it was "dark?" Could you really tell anyone that with a straight face?


----------



## Highgoober (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> So she has perfect control. She wastes no chakra.
> 
> Thats all you need. And ofcourse you can get better then perfect. You can alway achieve 110%. That increase becomes 100% since 100% is the base.
> 
> And i didnt hyperbole the difference between Sakura and Tsunade. Sakura isnt close to Tsunade in any manor.



All medics have perfect chakra control.

You cannot get better than perfect, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Perfect means it is as good as it can possibly be, if she has 110% chakra control(I find myself laughing uncontrollably from the sheer absurdness of the statement and need to explain this) then the standard would be moved up so she was 100% and therefore perfect and everyone else was 90% and not perfect.

As it stands she is the same as every other medic at chakra control, she's just a little more creative when it comes to application of her control. 

Honestly Creator, there are limits to what you can argue and her somehow surpassing what is perfect is one of them. The statement is a contradiction is and of itself and you either need to learn what the word means or rethink how stupid you want to come across when talking about Tsunade.

Have fun making your favourite character look worse than she is.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> Tell that to Shi.



Shii's level of chakra control is debateable at best. He was in one fight, and did very little. Tsunade has a tremendous reputation and title as well as decades of experience. Her strength revolves around flawless chakra control... Jiraiya clearly said you can break a genjutsu if you have good chakra control. That why Naruto's shitty at genjutsu.


----------



## Highgoober (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Shii's level of chakra control is debateable at best. He was in one fight, and did very little. Tsunade has a tremendous reputation and title as well as decades of experience. Her strength revolves around flawless chakra control... Jiraiya clearly said you can break a genjutsu if you have good chakra control. That why Naruto's shitty at genjutsu.



He's a medic and therefore possesses perfect chakra control.


----------



## Karma カルマ (Jan 2, 2010)

Right Shi's level of chakra control must be crap for the sake of your argument. Why on earth would a tracker/medical nin/genjutsu user have good chakra control. I mean that would just be absurd right?

ALSO ZOMG ALL MS GENJUTSU IS DARK.
100% PROVED


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

Kai said:


> You need to drop the nonsense and wake up. Itachi made Deidara experience such comfort and delusion in the confines of the genjutsu that he was about to commit suicide with joy. Itachi caught Sasuke's 3 tomoe Sharingan in a genjutsu _stacked upon_ another genjutsu.
> 
> Chakra control, genjutsu expertise, or other 'tips' similarly fail to impress. Orochimaru who scores a perfect 5 in genjutsu was facing mobility problems when face to face with Itachi's genjutsu. Itachi left no room for error and cut off his hand the instant he sensed resistance. This isn't even mentioning Tsukuyomi which is straight up *unbreakable* without Sharingan or bijuu aid.
> 
> Tsunade will be drowning on borrowed time through every stage of the fight and on major struggles just to keep up.



Not sure Deidara's the best example here. He was quite young and extremely overconfident and without knowledge. Tsunade will not rashly look at his eyes... also Deidara did eventually commit suicide. 

You can't debate Jiraiya's method of breaking genjutsu- which seems almost tailor made to fit Tsunade and her flawless control.


----------



## Federer (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Shii's level of chakra control is debateable at best. He was in one fight, and did very little. Tsunade has a tremendous reputation and title as well as decades of experience. Her strength revolves around flawless chakra control... Jiraiya clearly said you can break a genjutsu if you have good chakra control. That why Naruto's shitty at genjutsu.



bla bla bla.......

Shii is a medic, which require good control of chakra, he cast a genjutsu, which also requires high skill and is a sensor. He got owned.

Orochimaru wanted to learn every jutsu in the world, has a 5 in the genjutsu departement and he got owned too. 

You have no manga panels where Tsunade breaks a single genjutsu, let alone genjutsu on the level of Itachi's. 

kthanxbai



Watermelon Lover said:


> Actually I said debateable and I don't like words being shoved in my mouth
> 
> *I'm sure you'd agree Tsunade's chakra control if far greater than his.*



A big fat NO. Based on what? Your opinion?


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

Gally said:


> Right Shi's level of chakra control must be crap for the sake of your argument. Why on earth would a tracker/medical nin/genjutsu user have good chakra control. I mean that would just be absurd right?



Actually I said debateable and I don't like words being shoved in my mouth 

I'm sure you'd agree Tsunade's chakra control if far greater than his.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Shii's level of chakra control is debateable at best. He was in one fight, and did very little. Tsunade has a tremendous reputation and title as well as decades of experience. Her strength revolves around flawless chakra control... Jiraiya clearly said you can break a genjutsu if you have good chakra control. That why Naruto's shitty at genjutsu.



Drop.The.Bullshit.

Feats before statements.


Orochimaru was beat by a paralysis genjutsu. And Oro has a better stat in genjutsu then Tsunade.

Do you want to argue that Orochimaru is shitty at chakra control?

How about Kakashi? Is he shit at it too?

Or what about Gai?

Or what Pain? He was clearly annoyed by a high level genjutsu, yet with Nagato in control he should have flawless chakra control. Even better than Tsunade's.

Yet he was caught in one.

Chakra control doesn't mean jack.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Shii's level of chakra control is debateable at best. He was in one fight, and did very little. Tsunade has a tremendous reputation and title as well as decades of experience. Her strength revolves around flawless chakra control... Jiraiya clearly said you can break a genjutsu if you have good chakra control. That why Naruto's shitty at genjutsu.



and tsunade has only been in one battle aswell well actually two.
1) being bitch slapped by kabuto, she tried but in the end failed due to his speed.(had to be saved by naruto).shizune was also protecting her..

2)with the help of jiryia fighting a crippled orchimaru who could not use both his hands.


not very impressive feats... the only thing that is going for her is her "reputation"


----------



## Karma カルマ (Jan 2, 2010)

Ok so now on to a serious argument.

Knowledge is full in both directions, Itachi has access to his suiton here and starting distance favors Itachi more than it does Tsunade. Why is this you ask? Well because unlike Tsunade Itachi actually has ranged ninjutsu and he can do more than just break things. Now of course the Tsunade fans all need Katsuya to be present lest they cry. So I am going to say Tsunade opens with Katsuya. Who Itachi having full knowledge of will Tsukuyomi the son of a bitch or hit that slug hard with some suitons. At any rate Katsuya is going to die one way or another given Itachi knows it can actually pose him some harm. 

At which point it becomes Tsunade Vs Itachi who has expended some chakra ridding the world of Katsuya. At which point Tsukuyomi ends the battle or a Karasu Bunshin feint. Tsunade simply does not have the speed or technique to deal with Itachi in this scenario. Itachi is well aware of Tsunade's strength and with his speed, sharingan prediction and advantages he will pummel Tsunade to death in safe manner.


----------



## Rampage (Jan 2, 2010)

Gally said:


> Ok so now on to a serious argument.
> 
> Knowledge is full in both directions, Itachi has access to his suiton here and starting distance favors Itachi more than it does Tsunade. Why is this you ask? Well because unlike Tsunade Itachi actually has ranged ninjutsu and he can do more than just break things. Now of course the Tsunade fans all need Katsuya to be present lest they cry. So I am going to say Tsunade opens with Katsuya. Who Itachi having full knowledge of will Tsukuyomi the son of a bitch or hit that slug hard with some suitons. At any rate Katsuya is going to die one way or another given Itachi knows it can actually pose him some harm.
> 
> At which point it becomes Tsunade Vs Itachi who has expended some chakra ridding the world of Katsuya. At which point Tsukuyomi ends the battle or a Karasu Bunshin feint. Tsunade simply does not have the speed or technique to deal with Itachi in this scenario. Itachi is well aware of Tsunade's strength and with his speed, sharingan prediction and advantages he will pummel Tsunade to death in safe manner.



Pretty much this

sick set


----------



## Karma カルマ (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Actually I said debateable and I don't like words being shoved in my mouth
> 
> I'm sure you'd agree Tsunade's chakra control if far greater than his.



No I wouldn't agree with that because there is no evidence to support such tardism. 

Not only is Shi a medic but he is also a tracker and a genjutsu user. All of which require excellent chakra control. Tsunade as far as we know is just a medic. 

So no I don't agree with Tsunade having far greater chakra control than Shi.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Like I said before. She get's caught in genjutsu eventually. It's inevtiable.

One glance towards Itachi's finger or eyes is game over.If she glances at his fingers, she can probably break that genjutsu.

But by the time she does, she get's caught in a multi layer genjutsu. Itachi won't waste the moment. He'll know shes in it because her chakra flow will be different.

One genjutsu and it's over. No matter how weak.


----------



## Kai (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:
			
		

> You can't debate Jiraiya's method of breaking genjutsu- which seems almost tailor made to fit Tsunade and her flawless control.


I told you already in examples and detail why that strategy is beyond ineffective and you're telling me I can't debate against it. 

Talk about selective reasoning.


----------



## Karma カルマ (Jan 2, 2010)

Did I really just read people saying Tsunade can heal, herself, from Tsukuyomi?


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Nagato>Tsunade in chakra control. No one even bother arguing.

But he was caught in genjutsu.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

Gally said:


> Ok so now on to a serious argument.
> 
> Knowledge is full in both directions, Itachi has access to his suiton here and starting distance favors Itachi more than it does Tsunade. Why is this you ask? Well because unlike Tsunade Itachi actually has ranged ninjutsu and he can do more than just break things. Now of course the Tsunade fans all need Katsuya to be present lest they cry. So I am going to say Tsunade opens with Katsuya. Who Itachi having full knowledge of will Tsukuyomi the son of a bitch or hit that slug hard with some suitons. At any rate Katsuya is going to die one way or another given Itachi knows it can actually pose him some harm.
> 
> At which point it becomes Tsunade Vs Itachi who has expended some chakra ridding the world of Katsuya. At which point Tsukuyomi ends the battle or a Karasu Bunshin feint. Tsunade simply does not have the speed or technique to deal with Itachi in this scenario. Itachi is well aware of Tsunade's strength and with his speed, sharingan prediction and advantages he will pummel Tsunade to death in safe manner.





Gally said:


> No I wouldn't agree with that because there is no evidence to support such tardism.
> 
> Not only is Shi a medic but he is also a tracker and a genjutsu user. All of which require excellent chakra control. Tsunade as far as we know is just a medic.
> 
> So no I don't agree with Tsunade having far greater chakra control than Shi.



Tsunade has been shown to heal the after effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds. The only thing Itachi would be doing if he used Tsukiyomi in Katsuyu would be blinding himself and wasting a ton a chakra. 

Also there's nothing to suggest a genjutsu user or a sensor need abnormally high chakra control skills. A medic does, and Tsunade is the best medic alive. Shii is a medic... but so is Karin, we know very little about his skills and how advanced in medical ninjutsu he is.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Tsunade has been shown to heal the after effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds. The only thing Itachi would be doing if he used Tsukiyomi in Katsuyu would be blinding himself and wasting a ton a chakra.
> 
> Also there's nothing to suggest a genjutsu user or a sensor need abnormally high chakra control skills. A medic does, and Tsunade is the best medic alive. Shii is a medic... but so is Karin, we know very little about his skills and how advanced in medical ninjutsu he is.



My god....

She healed Kakashi's worn out body after Itachi pitied his life. She didn't go under mental tortue.

Considering she was mentally retarded after having only her brother and husband die, if Itachi replayed konoha getting slaughtered thousands of times in her head she would die. Period.

Also, Nagato's chakra control is *much* better than Tsunades. Don't bother arguing.

Pain was caught in a genjutsu.

Tsunade isn't genjutsu immune. Cut. The. Bullshit.


----------



## Karma カルマ (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Tsunade has been shown to heal the after effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds. The only thing Itachi would be doing if he used Tsukiyomi in Katsuyu would be blinding himself and wasting a ton a chakra.
> 
> Also there's nothing to suggest a genjutsu user or a sensor need abnormally high chakra control skills. A medic does, and Tsunade is the best medic alive. Shii is a medic... but so is Karin, we know very little about his skills and how advanced in medical ninjutsu he is.



You aren't serious?

So you are saying Itachi is going to stand there and watch Tsunade heal Katsuyu instead of killing her because she let her guard down. Right because that makes sense. 

I am not sure what kind of logic you are employing but taking out Tsunade's greatest weapon is not a waste of chakra since the battle ends with Katsuyu's incapacitation. 

There is nothing to suggest a genjutsu user or a sensor need abnormally high chakra control skills? Do we all read the same manga here? Do you even understand how genjutsu works? Or how sensing works? 

So it was my imagination that Shi stopped the bleeding and sealed the area where Raikage had cut off his own arm. Oh wait that wasn't my imagination that happened.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

I actually was arguing that he would be wasting his time Tsukiyomi-ing Katsuyu. I made no mention of her taking Tsukiyomi. If you remembered your post, and read me this wouldn't be a problem.

I agree that Tsukiyomi is quite problematic- in the off chance that is lands it would be quite the deciding factor. However, Tsunade can heal the effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds. If he used Tsukiyomi on Katsuyu, Tsunade would heal her and the fight would resume. Itachi would have only wasted his chakra and blinded himself.

...and to restate... Tsunade can heal the after effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds.


----------



## Karma カルマ (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> I actually was arguing that he would be wasting his time Tsukiyomi-ing Katsuyu. I made no mention of her taking Tsukiyomi. If you remembered your post, and read me this wouldn't be a problem.
> 
> I agree that Tsukiyomi is quite problematic- in the off chance that is lands it would be quite the deciding factor. However, Tsunade can heal the effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds. If he used Tsukiyomi on Katsuyu, Tsunade would heal her and the fight would resume. Itachi would have only wasted his chakra and blinded himself.
> 
> ...and to restate... Tsunade can heal the after effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds.



I am going to assume this was directed at Ace because I just addressed this.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> I actually was arguing that he would be wasting his time Tsukiyomi-ing Katsuyu. I made no mention of her taking Tsukiyomi. If you remembered your post, and read me this wouldn't be a problem.
> 
> I agree that Tsukiyomi is quite problematic- in the off chance that is lands it would be quite the deciding factor. However, Tsunade can heal the effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds. If he used Tsukiyomi on Katsuyu, Tsunade would heal her and the fight would resume. Itachi would have only wasted his chakra and blinded himself.
> 
> ...and to restate... Tsunade can heal the after effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds.



And if he kills Katsuya?
Or what if she gets put in a multi layered genjutsu?


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

How would you recommend killing something that tanked CST and eight-tailed chakra? If he does want to kill Katsuyu he'll only end up using what little stamina he has left to try. If he puts Katsuyu in a genjutsu- even a layered one, she has Tsunade who can break her out of them.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Ok I'm officially done talking to the tards who think Itachi sits and watches while Tsunade heals someone.

btw, KN8 protected katsuya from dying from chibaku tensei.


----------



## Karma カルマ (Jan 2, 2010)

Using Stamina to try kill Katsuyu? Tsukuyomi will put the slug down at which point Itachi has still shown he has a few more MS shots. I like how you ignore the argument about Tsunade leaving herself open Itachi if she tries to heal Katsuyu. It just makes it obvious that you have no rebut for it. Which means my work here is done.


----------



## Highgoober (Jan 2, 2010)

She'll be in not fit state to begin healing herself if she eats a Tsukiyomi, anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. Kakashi even stated that Itachi could have killed him with Tsukiyomi had he intended to, so a bloodlusted Itachi wouldn't leave any room for error.

Because it happens so fast, you can't prepare a defense against it, you can't begin preemptively healing, you won't even have the focus after 3 days of complete mental rape to try and use perfect chakra control to heal yourself.

Also in b4 Sozu Sensei tanks it. Just no, it regenerates the body, not the mind. 

Also before anyone says "Kakashi was standing up after Tsukiyomi, Tsunade can use that time to begin healing", Kakashi ate a no killing intent Tsukiyomi and was barely able to stay conscious long enough to talk to Itachi before collapsing. If it was a killing intent Tsukiyomi there's no question that the person is going down instantly and not getting back up. He was in no state to even attempt to mold or use chakra.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

I don't see what opening healing Katsuyu will give. Itachi would have to scale Katsuyu in less than a second.



From touching his forehead, Tsunade healed Sasuke before Sakura's tears hit the ground. Not even Itachi can launch a substantial attack in the time period.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Roka said:


> *Because it happens so fast, you can't prepare a defense against it, you can't begin preemptively healing, you won't even have the focus after 3 days of complete mental rape to try and use perfect chakra control to heal yourself.*



/tsukiyomi debate.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

Well scans are the only real way I can judge your argument as legitimate or not, so...

Also, I was arguing that Tsunade could heal Katsuyu if Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Katsuyu. Obviously this means Tsunade was not Tsukiyomied as well. I posted manga scans of Tsunade healing the after effects of Tsukiyomi in the time it took for Sakura's tears to hit the ground. Not even Itachi can assail Katsuyu and Tsunade in that time span- especially when Tsukiyomi compounds his blindness and weakens him significantly.


----------



## Highgoober (Jan 2, 2010)

He won't have to as she can't heal in that state, it's be impossible to focus on anything that delicate as healing with perfect control after 3 days of mental torture. That's assuming she doesn't fall down and become a quivering wreck after seeing her worst nightmare for three days straight and experiencing excruciating pain.

She might even fall into a coma or lay on the ground unable to move, she does have a habit of doing those things after all.



Watermelon Lover said:


> Well scans are the only real way I can judge your argument as legitimate or not, so...
> 
> Also, I was arguing that Tsunade could heal Katsuyu if Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Katsuyu. Obviously this means Tsunade was not Tsukiyomied as well. I posted manga scans of Tsunade healing the after effects of Tsukiyomi in the time it took for Sakura's tears to hit the ground. Not even Itachi can assail Katsuyu and Tsunade in that time span- especially when Tsukiyomi compounds his blindness and weakens him significantly.



I didn't know she was a vet.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 2, 2010)

You're obviously not reading...

this is a conversation about Tsunade healing Katsuyu if Katsuyu was hit by Tsukiyomi and Tsunade wasn't. Does that make more sense? Please read the thread before jumping into it with half-baked conclusions.



yeah and slugs can talk. :ho

If Tsukiyomi affects Katsuyu at all it will be in the same way it affected Kakashi and Sasuke- who Tsunade healed almost instantly.


----------



## Agony (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Also, I was arguing that Tsunade could heal Katsuyu if Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Katsuyu. Obviously this means Tsunade was not Tsukiyomied as well. I posted manga scans of Tsunade healing the after effects of Tsukiyomi in the time it took for Sakura's tears to hit the ground. Not even Itachi can assail Katsuyu and Tsunade in that time span- especially when Tsukiyomi compounds his blindness and weakens him significantly.


itachi will not tsukuyomi katsuyu.probably sharingan genjutsu but not tsukuyomi.he will use tsukuyomi on tsunade instead of katsuyu


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 2, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> You're obviously not reading...
> 
> this is a conversation about Tsunade healing Katsuyu if Katsuyu was hit by Tsukiyomi and Tsunade wasn't. Does that make more sense? Please read the thread before jumping into it with half-baked conclusions.
> 
> ...



Tsunade cant heal Katsuyu once shes in the Genjutsu but if she gives Katsuyu some chakra before hand ,Katsuyu can get Tsunade out of the Genjutsu if she does get caught in it.Katsuyu has precise enough chakra control that she can use Medical Ninjutsu. So Dispelling a Genjutsu should certainly be do-able.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade cant heal Katsuyu once shes in the Genjutsu but if she gives Katsuyu some chakra before hand ,Katsuyu can get Tsunade out of the Genjutsu if she does get caught in it.Katsuyu has precise enough chakra control that she can use Medical Ninjutsu. So Dispelling a Genjutsu should certainly be do-able.



YOU are obviously not reading. You run from every argument we give you.


Chakra control does not prevent genjutsu. Nagato has the best chakra control in the manga, yet he was caught in a genjutsu.


----------



## itachi52496 (Jan 2, 2010)

thats because he is weak on genjustu, he has so many other justus that deal with a cat and mouse kind of play and not many know nin ja are very very good at genjustu, itachis tsukyomi does damage biut tsunade has reserves and her stamina is significantly high


----------



## Soul (Jan 2, 2010)

Creator said:


> TheYellowFlash10: I didnt read through most of your posts but i read one or two points i completely disagree with.



Good to hear that someone reads them 



> 1) Everyone, including the most Genjutsu ignorant, ie Naruto, knew immidiately they were in a genjutsu.



Maybe you aren't understanding my point.

If you read the Itachi versus Sasuke fight, or versus Deidara, you saw that those opponents were fooled: They thought that they were fighting, but they were in a Genjutsu without even knowing what the fuck was happening.

Itachi can do the same with Tsuande, which will happen, at least in my opinion.



> Katsuyu seems to semi function by channeling Tsunade's chakra, so Genjutsu wont even hit her since she has two sets of chakra running through her.



Although good, that is just a theory; that we accept it because it makes sense doesn't means that the Genjutsu will be dispelled.

If the chakra is a small Katsuyu isn't enough to _*completely*_ disrupt Itachi's _*the Genjutsu won't be dispelled*_.



> 2) She can OHKO most people. Remember she doesnt only possess physical strenght, but her chakra enhanced strenght is monsterous. MONSTEROUS. Its not farfetched to say that a person who gets hit would die. Infact, if it wasnt for Oro's fake body and his jelly like physic, he would have died, from one punch.



....?
I know that.
I haven't said that Itachi will tank/take/survive one of her hits....



Creator said:


> Nope. Everyone realizes they are in genjutsu immidiately.



False; please re read the Deidara vs. Itachi "fight" to see why you are wrong.



> Genjutsu makes things weird. Thats what it is. Its meant to confuse you.



If the users wants, that is.



Creator said:


> Breaking out of genjutsu is nothing for her the moment she realizes shes in it.



Speculation.



Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade has exellent chakra control, the best in the series.



Mere speculation.



Creator said:


> And Tsunade has the best chakra control. _*Its manga fact.*_



Really? 
Can you show me this fact in the manga?



Watermelon Lover said:


> Tsunade has been shown to heal the after effects of Tsukiyomi in seconds.



This is quite funny.
How are you comparing healing the after effects from a non-bloodlusted Itachi on Kakashi and Sasuke {Which have Genjutsu resistance due to his Sharingan} after a week of being in the hospital to healing Tsukuyomi from a bloodlusted Itachi on a real battle without Sharingan??


----------



## Karma カルマ (Jan 2, 2010)

If Tsunade had Katsuyu's chakra running through her she would be a lot less likely to run out of chakra given boss summons must have massive chakra capacities given their size. Katsuyu has Tsunade's chakra running through her not the other way around.


----------



## itachi52496 (Jan 2, 2010)

even though that will happen...tsunade still has mitotic regeneration...and that could help get out of the genfustu in the first place


----------



## Karma カルマ (Jan 2, 2010)

Not only did that not make sense but there is no evidence to support that.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 2, 2010)

♠Ace♠ said:


> YOU are obviously not reading. You run from every argument we give you.
> 
> 
> Chakra control does not prevent genjutsu. Nagato has the best chakra control in the manga, yet he was caught in a genjutsu.



I dont run from arguements, If I havent replied to it, then clearly I havent seen it.There are two ways to dipell Genjutsu

1)Stop the flow Of chakra in your body, then apply a stronger flow of chakra to disrup the chakra flow of the caster of the Genjutsu(Can be done by other people)

2)Inflict Pain upon self. Then utilizing that Pain to bring back your senses.(Can be done by other people)

All Katsuyu must do is stop her flow of chakra then insert some of the chakra in Tsunades body to increase her chakra flow and snap her out of the Genjutsu. Chakra control helps to control the amount of chakra flowing around your body. So naturally- having good chakra control helps in dispelling genjutsu.


----------



## Rampage (Jan 2, 2010)

itachi52496 said:


> even though that will happen...tsunade still has mitotic regeneration...and that could help get out of the genfustu in the first place





cool story man


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> I dont run from arguements, If I havent replied to it, then clearly I havent seen it.There are two ways to dipell Genjutsu
> 
> 1)Stop the flow Of chakra in your body, then apply a stronger flow of chakra to disrup the chakra flow of the caster of the Genjutsu(Can be done by other people)
> 
> ...



Yeah that's cool. I never disagreed with that.

But she can't do it in one second.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 2, 2010)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Yeah that's cool. I never disagreed with that.
> 
> But she can't do it in one second.


Well you did say having good chakra control doesnt matter, when actually it is a a big beneficial factor for dispelling Genjutsu. Tsunade doesnt need to do it herself. If she is caught in Genjutsu, she has Katsuyu to break her out of it if she doesnt realise shes in one straight away.


----------



## αce (Jan 2, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Well you did say having good chakra control doesnt matter, when actually it is a a big beneficial factor for dispelling Genjutsu. Tsunade doesnt need to do it herself. If she is caught in Genjutsu, she has Katsuyu to break her out of it if she doesnt realise shes in one straight away.



I said that having good chakra control yourself doesn't matter. Katsuya is irrelevent because she can't react in one second.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 2, 2010)

♠Ace♠ said:


> I said that having good chakra control yourself doesn't matter. Katsuya is irrelevent because she can't react in one second.


Soo?What does that matter? She can still dispell the Genjutsu quickly and have other Katsuyu prevent Itachi from geting anywhere too quickly.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 7, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think she could break out of Itachi's regular Genjutsu.
> 
> However, something similar to what happened to Orochimaru would occur. Whilst she's in the process of breaking out, Itachi could simply chop her hand off. Or just kill her.



Yes, but unfortunately, Tsunade has shown much higher chakra control, and less overconfidence, she could come out faster than Orochimaru did. Just speculating, doesn't have to be true.

Plus, she could regenerate a hand with her Yin Seal's healing chakra, too.


----------



## MSAL (Jan 7, 2010)

Shinobi Naruto said:


> Plus, she could regenerate a hand with her Yin Seal's healing chakra, too.



I cant remember myself, but i thought her creation rebirth technique stimulated her proteins for a higher rate of cell division, meaning she can regrow organs and tissue.

Is she able to regrow a bodypart?


----------



## sanji's left eye (Jan 7, 2010)

i may be missing something so someone correct me if im wrong. whats stopping itachi from looking into her eyes and catching her in a genjutsu. she doesnt have like crazy speed, bunshins, sharingan, amazing genjutsu abilities, a partner, or a kekkai genkai to counter act this somehow. maybe a skillful combo with katsuya on her shoulder feeding her chakra can keep her out genjutsu. but then a tsukiyomi could just be used.


----------



## αce (Jan 7, 2010)

Ok Itachi wins.


The first factor that comes into play is Itachi's speed and his sharingan advantages. With the sharingan, it makes it near impossible for Tsunade to hit Itachi with taijutsu and it gets even harder with Itachi's immense speed abilities. Itachi is well above Sasuke in speed. The speed difference between the two is simply one sided.

Now, to bring Katsuya into this, because Tsunade fans seem butthurt if you don't. Katsuya is almost a non factor. She can heal Tsunade yes, but I'll eloborate later on how that is also useless. People like to bring up the acid "bombs" without realizing that they are extremely innacurate, and failed to miss a Manda at point blank range. Katsuyas offensiveness in this match is a non factor, but her defense might pose a threat.

Tsunade is pretty much screwed with any level of genjutsu Itachi uses. Itachi is able to use multi layered genjutsus. In other words, the simplest of genjutsus is your downfall. For example, if Tsunade was caught in the "finger genjutsu", before she breaks out of it, Itachi will cast another stronger genjutsu on top of the one she just overcame. These are near impossible to break out of and Itachi can also make it so you hurt your teammates or potentially yourself.

It also doesn't take much to get caught in sharingan genjutsu. Shii _casually_ looked over in Sasuke's vague direction, and was immediately caught with a the sharingan eyes which were well over 20 ft away froom Shii at the time.

Itachi also doesn't waste time. After catching Orochimaru in a paralysis genjutsu, he cut Orochimarus hand off at the first sign of resistance.


Mindfuck is unhealable. If she get's caught in a tsukiyomi it's over. If she get's caught in a multi layered genjutsu, it's over.


No matter how great your genjutsu dispelling is, you aren't breaking the _strongest_ genjutsu in the manga in a _seconds_ time. It simply isn't possible unless you are a jinchuuriki or sharingan user. 


There really is nothing Tsunade can do to him. She struggles trying to keep up. Fighting Itachi at close range without getting caught in a genjutsu is impossible. The lowest levels of genjutsu will be her downfall no matter how horrible the genjutsu is. Katsuya is irrelevent, as she can't heal mind fuck.

Tsukiyomi is her automatic death.


Itachi wins.


----------



## Watermelon Lover (Jan 7, 2010)

Tsunade with knowledge won't look at Itachi's eyes, she'll know to expect genjutsu and realize the importance of breaking out of it quickly. She has the best chakra control in the series... I'm bored just typing this, I've already said it in around thirty different ways. 

Even more alarming, Tsunade can have Katsuyu split and coat the battlefield in slugs. Allowing her a much wider sight and having Katsuyu act as little indestructible acid spitting video cameras. At this point as long as she stays hidden in the mist she can let Itachi run blindly around getting sprayed with acid.

She can essentially win without even coming face to face with Itachi as long as Katsuyu isn't restricted and the mist is thick enough to hide them both.

Tsunade might not survive an encounter with Tsukiyomi; but if he uses it on Katsuyu, Tsunade can heal the damage in seconds.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 7, 2010)

Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> I cant remember myself, but i thought her creation rebirth technique stimulated her proteins for a higher rate of cell division, meaning she can regrow organs and tissue.
> 
> Is she able to regrow a bodypart?



Yes, she said that it is able to regrow organs or lost limbs. 
She did in the anime to say the least. Besides, if she is able to grow back lost organs, then when why not limbs?


----------



## αce (Jan 7, 2010)

Ok, if you cut her legs off, it wouldn't matter if she could grow them back. Just blitz her.
If she lost her arm, just blitz.

Losing a limb is game over.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 7, 2010)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Ok, if you cut her legs off, it wouldn't matter if she could grow them back. Just blitz her.
> If she lost her arm, just blitz.
> 
> Losing a limb is game over.



Considering she healed back the many many stab wounds Orochimaru gave in a mere few seconds with MR, Limbs should be regenerated quickly too. Plus ,while she heals Katsuyu is more than enough to defend her. It would be a different story if Tsunade wasnt fast at healing and didnt have a defensive Summon. In any case-I dont see Tsunade losing a limb any time soon.If she feels that her opponent may land a fatal atack she can always use MR before hand to vastly reduce the damage.


----------



## `Monster (Jan 7, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Even with knowledge, it's going to be hard for Tsunade.
> 
> She may know not to look into his eyes, but it's easier said than done. You would have great difficulty fighting him, and Itachi could always force Tsunade to look. Theres also the finger, how is she going to not look at his fingers? She won't be able to predict(not Sharingan predict, but judge what jutsu is going to be used from seals) what jutsu he's going to use. Not that she would be able to see his seals anyway, but there is always the possibility.



Shes not going to look at his finger because she has knowledge. 

Almost every ninja who went up against him said he could trap you with a flick of his finger. So obviously, she won't look.


----------



## MSAL (Jan 7, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Yes, she said that it is able to regrow organs or lost limbs.
> She did in the anime to say the least. Besides, if she is able to grow back lost organs, then when why not limbs?



Growing limbs isnt the same as growing internal organs. She has immediate access to grow her organs through the cell division. Growing limbs is a much larger prospect.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 7, 2010)

Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> Growing limbs isnt the same as growing internal organs. She has immediate access to grow her organs through the cell division. Growing limbs is a much larger prospect.


As long as she has the chakra to heal the damage, she can heal any sort of injury. Unless the Jutsu destroys Tsunades body entirely (therefore making recovery impossible) Mitotic Regeneration can heal any wound.

There are cells everywhere in our bodies. While the Jutsu may begin healing from the inside -the cells are dividing so fast,it doesnt really matter. All injuries will be healed in almost no time considering the Jutsus effectiveness.


----------



## Neji-Hyuuga (Jan 8, 2010)

I actully do not think that Sōzō Saisei is able to regrow limbs, reading the description, it says "This allows her to recreate all organs and tissues. The technique itself does not regenerate the old cells, rather it hastens the creation of new ones through division". So all this jutsu does is hasten the creation of new cells which our bodies do naturally. But our bodies, naturally are not able to reform the limbs with the creation of new cells, meaning tsunade should not be able to either


----------



## Maerala (Jan 8, 2010)

Neji-Hyuuga said:


> I actully do not think that Sōzō Saisei is able to regrow limbs, reading the description, it says "This allows her to recreate all organs and tissues. The technique itself does not regenerate the old cells, rather it hastens the creation of new ones through division". So all this jutsu does is hasten the creation of new cells which our bodies do naturally. But our bodies, naturally are not able to reform the limbs with the creation of new cells, meaning tsunade should not be able to either



Makes perfect sense.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jan 8, 2010)

Itachi wins.

Tsunade would just get trapped in Genjutsu, and would get cut up over and over again. Even if she took Itachi by surprise with her rebirth, she wouldn't be able to get in close enough for any suitable offense. Itachi is too quick and skilled to let someone with such a predictable style get in close. It doesn't help that Itachi can predict her strikes.

If Tsunade summons giant slug, then Itachi can just use genjutsu on the slug or use Tsyukinomi (which I think is legal for this fight) on it. 

Tsunade's only hope is out lasting Itachi in till he tires out. But even then, if Itachi attacks Tsunade's brain then she's done for. Brain cells are in short supply


----------



## Tipster74743 (Jan 8, 2010)

19 pages?

Why hasn't Tsukuyomi gg not ended this yet?


----------



## MSAL (Jan 8, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> As long as she has the chakra to heal the damage, she can heal any sort of injury. Unless the Jutsu destroys Tsunades body entirely (therefore making recovery impossible) Mitotic Regeneration can heal any wound.
> 
> There are cells everywhere in our bodies. While the Jutsu may begin healing from the inside -the cells are dividing so fast,it doesnt really matter. All injuries will be healed in almost no time considering the Jutsus effectiveness.



Even if the process of Mitosis is sped up through the technique, it would not be able to divide fast enough to grow back an entire limb instantly.

Tbh, if you look at the description of Creation Rebirth, i really dont think it has the capacity available to regrow severed limbs. It just divides rapidly, to create new cells..hence, the reason shes able to regrow organs.

If she can do this, i want to see a scan.

Cutting off a limb will leave her open to attack.




Neji-Hyuuga said:


> I actully do not think that Sōzō Saisei is able to regrow limbs, reading the description, it says "This allows her to recreate all organs and tissues. The technique itself does not regenerate the old cells, rather it hastens the creation of new ones through division". So all this jutsu does is hasten the creation of new cells which our bodies do naturally. But our bodies, naturally are not able to reform the limbs with the creation of new cells, meaning tsunade should not be able to either



Precisely the point i was trying to make.


----------



## gtw1983 (Jan 8, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> *Location*: The Great Naruto Bridge
> *Knowledge*: Full.
> *Distance*: 40 m.
> *Restrictions*: Itachi's Amaterasu and Susano'o.
> *State of Mind*: Both are bloodlusted.



Itachi will win after a decent battle I'm thinking.

Tsunade has the superhuman strength and possible stamina to outlast Itachi if they were on the same level of ability.

Unfortunately Itachi is likely to be Waaaayyy faster than Tsunade could handle,as seen in his battle in Konoha and with Sasuke.

She may be able to forcefully break out of a lower level Genjutsu,but Tsukuyomi will be too much I'm thinking.

That particular jutsu attacks and weakens the mind,meaning her recovery abilities would be pretty much useless if Itachi used the full powered genjutsu.

Physical attacks she can handle,mental ones not so much.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 9, 2010)

Creator said:


> I really dislike threads like these, as i alway get negged and it alway tends to be spite threads against Tsunade and threads which let Itachi fans wank over his genjutsu.
> 
> 
> I say Tsunade. Katsuyu isnt restricted, so Itachi has little means to kill Tsunade, unless he uses his Black Fire in which case Katsuyu can split up, but it costs Itachi a hell of a lot and the 30 seconds with Susano'o is a laughing matter. Plus with Full knowledge Tsunade will avoid it.



Or Itachi can just, you know, cover the distance with Shunshin no Jutsu before Tsunade can blink and establish eye-contact, thus trapping her in Tsukuyomi and effectively ending the fight before it can even begin.

Since, you know, he's bloodlusted here.


----------

