# Where do you rank The Masters in the Akatsuki?



## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

​
Scenario 1: War Arc Kakashi and Gai
Scenario 2: No Sharingan Kakashi and Wheel Chair Gai 

No prime this or that, what we saw in the manga.

All these threads and not one about the most awesome duo.

Wait, this thread made before?


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## Bonly (Jun 8, 2015)

8th Gated Gai
Obito
Nagato
Itachi
Sasori
Kisame
Gai
Kakashi
Konan 
Deidara
Kakuzu
Hidan


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Bonly said:


> 8th Gated Gai
> Obito
> Nagato
> Itachi
> ...



Sasori is above Gai? Kisame and Sasori above Kakashi? You gotta explain this.

I'd honestly put the Masters as one, on Itachi's level.


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## Kai (Jun 8, 2015)

I didn't count the 8th Gate in regards to the others because Gai refuses to use it if he's alone. That is a life rule he set on himself.

Obito
Nagato
Itachi/*Kakashi*
*Gai*
Kisame
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

I'd thought Gai has reached the level by now based on all the things he has done, to be on Itachi and his equal, Kakashi's level.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

War Arc Kakashi and Gai
Everyone else.

-----------------------------

Everyone else
Wheelchair Guy

Actually non-8th gate Guy and non-kamui Kakashi are probably around Itachi level in skill, so just below the big 3.

Kamui Kakashi is kamui level, which puts him up by Obito, but he's probably a better base ninja than Obito, so I guess Kakashi reigns supreme.


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## Bonly (Jun 8, 2015)

Jad said:


> Kisame and Sasori above Kakashi?



Sasori needs one hit in order to kill somebody in three days upon which slowly starts to numb after being hit. Sasori has 298 puppets in his arsenal upon which he has some human puppets that can use jutsu from when they were alive, he doesn't have a normal body which means he doesn't feel pain for the most part and he's not getting physically tired any more. He can make up to 100(maybe more but who knows) chakra strings which can control people's+object's movements. Ect. 

Kisame has Samehada which can absorb chakra and heal Kisame or others that Kisame wants, he has alot of strength and he's quite skilled in CQC, and he has large Suitons which allows him to damn near change the battle field and you know about how dangerous his dome is. Ect.

Those are just a few things but you get the point, their abilities overall wise makes them more dangerous and stronger imo, only thing Kakashi got on them is Kamui and that's not a great as it could be


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Sasori needs one hit in order to kill somebody in three days upon which slowly starts to numb after being hit. Sasori has 298 puppets in his arsenal upon which he has some human puppets that can use jutsu from when they were alive, he doesn't have a normal body which means he doesn't feel pain for the most part and he's not getting physically tired any more. He can make up to 100(maybe more but who knows) chakra strings which can control people's+object's movements. Ect.
> 
> Kisame has Samehada which can absorb chakra and heal Kisame or others that Kisame wants, he has alot of strength and he's quite skilled in CQC, and he has large Suitons which allows him to damn near change the battle field and you know about how dangerous his dome is. Ect.
> 
> Those are just a few things but you get the point, their abilities overall wise makes them more dangerous and stronger imo, only thing Kakashi got on them is Kamui and that's not a great as it could be



Why Sasori above Gai, same reasons?


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## Bonly (Jun 8, 2015)

Jad said:


> Why Sasori above Gai, same reasons?



Yup more or less


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Yup more or less



I'm gonna have you debate yourself.



Bonly said:


> Gai should win more times then not. Once he goes into the higher gates none of Sasori attacks are likely to actually hit Gai and the big AoE of Asa Kujaku+Hirudora can take out pretty much every puppet Sasori can bring to the battle field and the same goes for Kakuzu's heart beast. The duo can put up a decent fight but they're going down.





Bonly said:


> Once Gai uses the gates it's pretty much over. Gai was sent flying quite a bit down into the water by Kisame and once Gai opened the sixth gate, he was able to pop up in front of Kisame and moved faster then Kisame could finish his thought. Gai in the sixth gate was also fast enough to land hits on a V2 Jin who had a Sharingan and Rinnegan in each eye. Sasori hasn't shown any attacks to suggest that he can hit Gai due to Gai's speed. Sasori also hasn't shown any defense to suggest he or his puppets can tank daytime tiger or morning peacock which means Sasori and his puppets are basically screwed. Unless Sasori manages to get a lucky hit in before Gai goes gates then Gai should win more times then not.



All valid points I think.


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## Bonly (Jun 8, 2015)

Jad said:


> I'm gonna have you debate yourself.



Yeah Gai would still win more times then not imo, I still think Sasori is stronger.


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Yeah Gai would still win more times then not imo, I still think Sasori is stronger.


Excuse me for my ignorance, but that doesn't make sense to me. How can Sasori be stronger than Gai when you say he defeats him more times?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Both are around or slightly below Itachi's level.

Kakashi without Sharingan-drain is god-tier


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## Bonly (Jun 8, 2015)

Jad said:


> Excuse me for my ignorance, but that doesn't make sense to me. How can Sasori be stronger than Gai when you say he defeats him more times?



Simple. As I've told you and many other people, I don't care too much if character X can or can not beat characters Y,Z,W,MNOP, ect. That's not too important to me when I rank characters, I look at hype,potential,feats,portrayal, ect. things of nature when I rank them, otherwise a person would miss out on a characters ability which can boost them up.  

Look at Tsunade for example. She went and heal herself,healed Gaara+Onoki, and healed Mei on panel. She then used Byakugo and was constantly healing herself from attacks and as we saw when Madara made the clones it was daytime yet they were still fighting at night time which means they was fighting for quite a bit. Now when Onoki used a cubed Jinton(which it turning into a laser beam) it was about slightly bigger then Sasuke height wise yet a Tsunade who was no where near 100 percent was able to boost his Jinton to be about one/third to half the size of Madara's PS. Just think about that for a second. Now think about how many other jutsu she'll be able to boost like that, hell and she wasn't even at 100 percent and to put more salt into the wound Tsunade can keep storing chakra in her seal which means that depending on the time she could be able to boost a jutsu even further. Think of all the possibilities that have now opened up thanks to that ability(not even gonna mention Katsuyu either) which can be capitalized in team battles. 

And yet if we were to be so small minded as to simply look at things with a mindset of "Character X and beat Character Y" when it comes to who is stronger, then you would have to ignore that great ability of Tsunade's when ranking her because it doesn't do much in a 1V1 match. In my honest opinion I find that to be a laughably stupid thing to do because there is more then simple 1V1 fights when it comes to Naruto. 

Ino is another person who doesn't have to much going for her in a 1V1 battle but when it comes to team battles and being supports, her stock rises quite a bit thanks to all of her abilities. I would name why but I'm sure you don't care, all you care about is that Ino's Da Best which is a respectable thing to think 

So yes even if I think Gai would beat Sasori more times then not, that doesn't mean Gai is outright stronger *overall wise* in my opinion.


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## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

1- obito (in term of winning) 
2- 8th gate guy (cant really do anything to obito lol) 
3- nagato
4- ms kakashi 
5- full power kisame (tho would lose to deidara)
6- 7 gates guy ~ 50% kisame 
7- kakuzu 
8- konan 
9- sasori 
10- deidara 
11- hidan 
12- no sharingan kakashi 
13- especial need guy

Edit: itachi after kakashi btw, i forgot about this fodder. Lol


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Jad said:


> Excuse me for my ignorance, but that doesn't make sense to me. How can Sasori be stronger than Gai when you say he defeats him more times?



He means that Sasori is generally going to beat more people than Gai will, but Gai can beat Sasori.

Match-up is a thing. Minato is typically seen as stronger than tanks like the 3rd Raikage or Tsunade, but he may lose (or draw) with them due to his limited offense. 

That doesn't make him weaker.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Sasori's ability to create puppets that retain people's jutsu puts him above Gai(without 8th Gate). It's more about potential but still. Imagine him having Puppet Onoki/Mu. Yeah, gg.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

^ Why without 8th Gate?

What if Sasori had an 8th Gate Gai puppet.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

I don't think he can create a proper Gai Puppet. Gates are about the whole body. While Sasori's puppets have only a chunk of specially prepared flesh that holds chakra.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

8 Gated Gai
Double MS PS Kakashi
------------------------------------
Itachi / Pain
Obito
Kisame(water dome + shark mode)
*Gai / Kakashi*
Deidara
Kakuzu/Sasori
Kisame(no chakra)
Hidan
Konan
Zetsu


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## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

And u r the one who was luaghing at ranking jman with pain, and u just putted a weaker guy with pain and above obito.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And u r the one who was luaghing at ranking jman with pain, and u just putted a weaker guy with pain and above obito.



I was laughing because you placed Jiraiya, the guy Pain completely annihilated, on par with Pain. Also some other shit that outright contradict with the manga.


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## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

Win or lose does not really mean they are on different level. Pain would fodderstomps itachi much worst, and yet you placed on the sam level. 



> Also some other shit that outright contradict with the manga.



Mmm, such as what?


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## Icegaze (Jun 8, 2015)

Gai 
obito
nagato
itachi
kakashi
orochimaru

and then rest


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## Ghost (Jun 8, 2015)

Wheelchair Guy


Obito/Pain/Itachi
Guy/Kakashi
Kisame
Deidara
Sasori/Kakuzu/No Sharingan Kakashi
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 8, 2015)

Nagato
Itachi
Sasori
kisame
Kakuzu
deidara
1 MS kakashi war arc
Konan
Zetsu
Hidan
base Gai


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## RBL (Jun 8, 2015)

*Scenario 1:*

1- Gai
2- Kakashi
3- Juubito
[Big Gap]
Nagato
Itachi
Kisame
Deidara
Sasori
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan

*Second Scenario*

1 -Obito
2 - Nagato
3 - Itachi
4 - Kisame
5 -Deidara
6 - Sasori
7 - Kakuzu
8 - Wheelchair Gai/Kakashi
9 - Konan
10 - Hidan

*Without the 8th Gate*

1 - Obito
2 - Nagato
3 - Itachi/Gai
4 - Kisame/Kakashi
*everyone else*


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 8, 2015)

Obito/Kakashi
Gai
Nagato
Itachi
Kisame

___________________

The rest.

___________________

Not enough info on Kakashi and Gai post war arc.


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## Icegaze (Jun 8, 2015)

Quick question 
whats faster tskuyomi or kamui ?

also whats faster susanoo activation or kamui

these questions answer where itachi should be relative to kakashi

i am surprised though but i keep seeing people put kisame above orochimaru 

for me only those who can deal or stop him from using it ET or yamata should be considered above him. 

kakashi and gai in my opinion are more dangerous to the Naruto verse than orochimaru is


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## Deer Lord (Jun 8, 2015)

8th Gate Gai 
-Astronomical Gap-
Pain
7th Gate Gai
Edo Itachi
MS Obito
Living Itachi
Orochimaru
Kisame
Sasori
MS Kakashi/6th Gate Gai
Kakuzo
Deidara
Konan
3T Kakashi/Base Gai
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Nagato
Itachi
MS Obito
*Kakashi*
*Gai*
Kisame
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Empathy (Jun 8, 2015)

A lot lower than most:


Pain
Obito
Itachi
Sasori
Deidara
Orochimaru (start of part II)
Kisame
Kakuzu
*Kakashi*
*Gai*
Konan
Hidan
I don't know what to make of Zetsu. I'm not sure about Obito (pre-Rinnegan) above Itachi and Kakuzu above Kakashi. War arc Orochimaru is obviously at the top, unless _Shimon_ Gai and Double Mangekyou Kakashi are included. Start of part I Orochimaru would probably go just underneath Itachi, but we never got to see his full strength. Kakashi, I'm pretty sure should be higher, but I don't like having him and Gai being noticeably apart, as they're portrayed as rivals (Gai's kind of holding back Kakashi's placement for me). 

For the record, I think Gai would defeat Sasori and Kakashi would defeat Deidara and Kakuzu, but match-up influences that as much as it does them losing to the ones above them that I didn't mention. I can at least understand where the notion of Kakashi on Itachi's level stems from, even if I don't agree with it. But the logic of Gai on Itachi's level is completely lost on me (I mean we clearly saw him give it his all against base Kisame), and to me really seems to stem from wanting to keep Gai on Kakashi's level (which really isn't flawed logic)—the same line of thinking I have that's keeping Kakashi below most of Akatsuki.

*Edit:* Upon review, I'd put Kakashi just under Kisame, because there's no way part I Kakashi and Gai were close in strength.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Empathy said:


> A lot lower than most:
> 
> 
> Pain
> ...



*Spoiler*: __


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## ThunderCunt (Jun 8, 2015)

Obito with rinnegan
Nagato
7th Gate Gai/Kakashi
Itachi
Kisame
Others.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 8, 2015)

Why do i see a few people putting Gai below Kisame? 

Da hell?


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## Empathy (Jun 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> *Spoiler*: __



There isn't any sense in Gai being well above Kisame, and make no mistake that there is an implied big gap between Itachi and Kisame. The gap between Kakashi and Gai can't be similar to Itachi and Kisame, because that isn't reflective of their status as rivals. Then you have the problem that Gai can't be at Itachi's level, while he and Kakashi are suppose to be close in strength (I also just plain don't agree with Itachi and Kakashi being close in feats). Gai was a great match for Kisame and fought him without Samehada, where he couldn't heal. If anything, that implies Kisame with his full strength is stronger than Gai, even if Gai is a bad match-up. Gai needing the _Keimon_ against 30% Kisame and being defeated by armless Deidara doesn't help Gai's portrayal either (and Gai's portrayal affects Kakashi's portrayal). 

Akatsuki being stronger than the good guys they fought against was a strong theme for the majority of the series before the war arc (as shown with Kisame and Gai) and was displayed for nearly every member. Nearly everyone had to team up to defeat Kakuzu, including Kakashi, who twice was going to be killed by him on an individual level. Kakashi, I only think is about as strong as base Naruto at contemporary junctures in the same vein that I think Jiraiya is on the same level as Pain-arc _Sennin_ Naruto, or KCM Naruto is at Minato's level. Kakashi states he and post-fuuton Naruto are on the same level in the Immortals arc, but it's ignored for some inexplicable reason beyond that point, despite both still progressing after then (war arc base Naruto had crazy feats). Kakuzu was definitely stronger than Kakashi and Naruto at concurrent junctures. I'd have thought I had earned enough accolades here where a dissenting opinion of mine wouldn't be dismissed with an, "_eternally bored_," image by one of our top members.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

It wasn't a bored bear. It was a sad bear. Seeing a solid post about Kakashi/Gai being that low while being unable to properly refute it.


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## Empathy (Jun 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> It wasn't a bored bear. It was a sad bear. Seeing a solid post about Kakashi/Gai being that low while being unable to properly refute it.



[QUOT**E=Alex Payne;5375**0864]
*Spoiler*: __


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Oh, that's a site with tons of random pics that I frequently check. I can recommend it.


*Spoiler*: __


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

I was thinking about Empathy's point yesterday.  It's sort of ridiculous for Guy to be struggling with Shoten Kisame, and later saying he can't do anything but get in the way of Naruto against Pain, to opening up one more gate and shooting an island tiger and Kisame, with something he was supposed to always be able to do.  

By feats you could argue that he could one shot at least several paths with that, but that doesn't fit with the credit Sage Jiraiya gave them, or Guy's appraisal of himself and Sage Naruto, or his relationship to Pain Arc Kakashi.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Gates got the same boost as Kakashi's Kamui. Asa Kujaku jumped from roughly one-person AoE(with DB confirming that) up to 100+ Sharks/Biju Acid Cloud. Power inflation and all. I am not sure what was Kishimoto's original plan for Kakashi and Gai in terms of power. Gai did one-shot Shoten Kisame decisively and Kakashi had "I was going to use Kamui so you saved me from a hospital" against Kakuzu. I think they were supposed to be comfortably in the middle Akatsuki section(Sasori/Kisame/Deidara/Kakuzu) but with high-risk/high-reward trumps. Back when Akatsuki were the main Antagonists... If Pain would have stayed Top Tier in the verse then I would have placing similar to Empathy's. Things changed and Masters were needed to fight alongside BM Naruto/Killer B against new Top Tiers. Kishimoto had a chance to upgrade Edo Tensei Akatsuki up to current power standards. But he did the opposite for whatever reason. So Masters were able to ride on power inflation with past threats staying the same(plus losing a massive amount of respect points due to Sai/Kankuro and other bullshit). So imo - War Arc Masters are closer to Itachi than to whoever is below him in your personal rankings.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Empathy said:


> There isn't any sense in Gai being well above Kisame, and make no mistake that there is an implied big gap between Itachi and Kisame. The gap between Kakashi and Gai can't be similar to Itachi and Kisame, because that isn't reflective of their status as rivals. Then you have the problem that Gai can't be at Itachi's level, while he and Kakashi are suppose to be close in strength (I also just plain don't agree with Itachi and Kakashi being close in feats). Gai was a great match for Kisame and fought him without Samehada, where he couldn't heal. If anything, that implies Kisame with his full strength is stronger than Gai, even if Gai is a bad match-up. Gai needing the _Keimon_ against 30% Kisame and being defeated by armless Deidara doesn't help Gai's portrayal either (and Gai's portrayal affects Kakashi's portrayal).



Kisame's power fluctuates drastically depending on how much chakra he's eaten up. Mr. Mountain Buster _lost_ to Kisame, and I (along with many others) see B as _Itachi's_ superior. Kisame even _said this himself_ to an extent. A man with the potential handle a High-Kage Perfect Jinchuriki is most definitely not _always_ so far below the level of Itachi or the Sannin that he wouldn't be relevant in a fight between them

Early PII Gai obliterated Shoten Kisame in one move upon ascending to the Sixth Gate, and War Arc Gai obliterated a Juiced Kisame (Samehada would have been irrelevant here without absorbed chakra to heal Kisame with) in one move upon ascending to the Seventh Gate. Kisame was never competitive with those Gates like Madara was with the Eighth. As soon as Gai used them, Kisame lost ten seconds later. 

There isn't _always_ a "big gap" between Itachi & Kisame and Gai smashed a Kisame that wasn't so far away from him, so I personally see no reason that Gai (and Kakashi by extension) couldn't be closer to Itachi than you have them. Just step back and look at the techniques Kisame used. Daikodan is not something that would be irrelevant in Itachi vs. Jiraiya. Daikodan is likely better than everything Base Jiraiya can throw out, and most of his Sage techniques too.

You also talk about The Masters' early portrayal, but that _clearly_ changed once the war started. They went to being Wind Naruto level and irrelevant in a fight with a battle worn Pain to dancing with Rinnegan Obito and, in Gai's case, JJ Madara. He even fought roughly on par with Madara in the Eight Gate; you think _one_ Gate takes him from below Kakuzu all the way up to Jubi Madara?

I don't know if they're equal to Itachi, but they're much closer to him than they are Kakuzu or Deidara.


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Funny seeing you guys talk about portrayal of Gai in your own tongue. How about we use the thoughts and opinion of the actual author of the story, who states it pretty black and white that Gai is *more than equal to anyone in the Akatsuku* [] There is another piece of portrayal, and that's Itachi running away from Gai knowing full well what his capable of, as per the Databook []. You also have Itachi twice, once telling Kisame not to underestimate him, and another when he spoke to the entire Akatuski organization. Even Zetsu believed Might Gai to be a powerful foe. There is also the fact that 7th Gated Gai did what Minato, Gaara, Kakashi, probably a whole host of other people as well can't do, and that was actually force the Juubi Jinchuuriki back without getting instantly blitzed.

Now, Gai finished off Kisame in the 6th Gate in a blitz/stomp. Yet people believe they are somewhat equals? Comparable? He was forced to use the 6th Gate to literally get out of the bottom of the ocean which happened while he was in *base*, not in Gated form. What person wouldn't need to use a technique to get out of an opponents VAST field advantage? Plus how many Kage's can one shot another Kage in one move within a chapter without getting injured? That's what Gai did, with large amounts of energy to spare.

Yes, Empathy, you can keep showing me Gai collapsing after some unknown period of time in, with Naruto touching him to the point he feels pain. But I will keep proving you wrong, and showing you canon material that Gai if he was serious enough, to fight through such pain, like he did with the more intense 8th Gate. I mean the guy initiated his final Ultimate Attack in state where he was literally on the verge of death. I don't know any characters that can unleash their ultimate attack nearing exhaustion and near death physical condition. Can you even compare what Gai felt when Naruto touched to him, to when he first got over the effect of Evening Elephant? [3] This was after he was physically exhausted to continue and need Lee carry him, after he saved Kakashi in an unknown Gated form, this is after he used a 7th Gated Combo on Madara and unleashed *Hirudora*, this was after he was nailed by his own failed *Hirudora* and injured, and this was after he initiated his first *Evening Elephant*

Also Pirate, when did Gai ever mention he himself, would get in Naruto's way? I distinctly remember he was going to help, but Katsuya told him not to.



Bonly said:


> So yes even if I think Gai would beat Sasori more times then not, that doesn't mean Gai is outright stronger *overall wise* in my opinion.



Are you trying to say that you believe Sasori is just more versatile ninja than Gai, that because he'd be more useful as a ninja, his thus stronger than Gai? Since I purposefully made this thread based on combat ability alone against other ninja.

If the latter of what I just said is what you are getting across, who does Sasori beat that Gai couldn't. Because I can't think of anyone.​


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Gai's straightforwardness, devotion to study and aspiration to achieve greater goals... makes him equal to someone like Pain? 

Come on, Jad. You can do better than that.


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Gai's straightforwardness, devotion to study and aspiration to achieve greater goals... makes him equal to someone like Pain?
> 
> Come on, Jad. You can do better than that.



Kishimoto said it, not me.

However, the point I'm actually trying to make is that Gai is not just above Konan and Zetsu in terms of portrayal, if that's what you use. With statements like "*more than equal to anyone in the Akatsuki*" by Kishimoto himself, that should actually mean something of value to accredit Gai as a ninja. You even believe yourself he hovers close to Itachi.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Kishimoto said *a lot* of things in DB. A lot of them pure bullshit.


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## Bonly (Jun 8, 2015)

Jad said:


> Are you trying to say that you believe Sasori is just more versatile ninja than Gai, *that because he'd be more useful as a ninja, his thus stronger than Gai?*



See now you're catching on.



> Since I purposefully made this thread based on combat ability alone against other ninja.



You said rank them and that's what I did, don't care if you intended them to be ranked based on something else.



> If the latter of what I just said is what you are getting across, *who does Sasori beat that Gai couldn't*. Because I can't think of anyone



"I don't care too much if character X can or can not beat characters Y,Z,W,MNOP, ect. *That's not too important to me when I rank characters, I look at hype,potential,feats,portrayal, ect. things of nature when I rank them*"

Who Sasori can beat that Gai couldn't doesn't matter to much when ranking them to me


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Bonly said:


> See now you're catching on.
> You said rank them and that's what I did, don't care if you intended them to be ranked based on something else.
> "I don't care too much if character X can or can not beat characters Y,Z,W,MNOP, ect. *That's not too important to me when I rank characters, I look at hype,potential,feats,portrayal, ect. things of nature when I rank them*"
> Who Sasori can beat that Gai couldn't doesn't matter to much when ranking them to me



It's clearly up to you how you want to rank them. I just wanted to pin point why, that's all. I must have forgotten the bold  part of your post because I read it all, and only came back to it after a few hours.

However, you sought of confused me with 8th Gate Gai at the top of your list. 8th Gate Gai in terms of versatility is no more than Gai in his 7th Gate or any of his Gates for that matter.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Win or lose does not really mean they are on different level.* Pain would fodderstomps itachi much worst, and yet you placed on the sam level. *


Thats your opinion.
On the other hand, Pain stomping Jiraiya is a fact. It happened.



> Mmm, such as what?


Orochimaru and Tsunade being on par with Itachi contrary to Itachi's superior portrayal and feats.
Hell, Itachi is outright stated to be stronger than Orochimaru and destroyed him on panel twice.


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## RBL (Jun 8, 2015)

Jad said:


> If the latter of what I just said is what you are getting across, who does Sasori beat that Gai couldn't. Because I can't think of anyone.​



exactly this

people who think that sasori is an stronger ninja overall


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## Duhul10 (Jun 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats your opinion.
> On the other hand, Pain stomping Jiraiya is a fact. It happened.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Umbrella (Jun 8, 2015)

I really have a hard time seeing either of them being Itachi's peer... or even close. Honestly though it's difficult to say considering Itachi's own awkward portrayal, and how the Edo Akatsuki were treated. I don't think I'd consider them peers of the Sannin for that matter tbh.

Nagato > / = Itachi, pt. 1
Obito 
Orochimaru, pt. 1
Sasori - the Masters would either go here.
Deidara /  Kisame - or, more likely, here.
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu

...I guess this is it? Maybe...? *sigh* the War Arc really did a number on the coherency of this series. Almost feels like Bleach.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

Jiriaya didn't dance with *6 *paths.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats your opinion.
> On the other hand, Pain stomping Jiraiya is a fact. It happened.
> 
> 
> ...



- just like how itachi running from base Jiraiya is fact, after the latter using 1 jutsu. 
- There is absolutly no superior portrayed or feats for him. As a matter of fact, at the end both of them
surpassed him by a huge gap. Oro having almost perfected the ET and gaining Zetsu body, and Hashirama's cells. Tsunade has better feats of fighting against 5 susanoos at the same time. 

Yeah, Oro without his perfected ET, or Zetsu body. 
That's like saying Lee is still stronger than Naruto and Sasuke because he defeated them in part 1. 
Do you also believe that Lee is stronger than madara, and Tayuya is stronger than itachi because she 1 shotted him?


Itachi's hype and portrayed has ALWAYS been together with the sannin. From the manga statements, to the Databooks stats, to his role with Sasuke compared to Jiraiya's role with Narudo. He just so happened to have a larger fan-base. That's all. 

People compare him to Tobirama and Minato which he has NEVER been compared to, which is the real laughable thin there my dear. I can give you where
itachi has been compared to them several times (and I already gave you some), but neither you, nor any of itachi's fanboys will be able to bring where itachi
has ever been compared to those characters that perviously mentioned.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - just like how itachi running from base Jiraiya is fact, after the latter using 1 jutsu.


Itachi was on Konoha's side, he wanted to retreat from Kakashi & Co as well. Had to defeat them when they pressed on. Jiraiya made no attempt to pursue, so there was no reason to fight a battle he had absolutely no reason to.



> There is absolutly no superior portrayed or feats for him. As a matter of fact, at the end both of them
> surpassed him by a *huge gap*.


How did that happen  ?



> Oro having almost perfected the ET and gaining Zetsu body, and Hashirama's cells.


Oh, so you think War ARC Oro is weaker than Jiraiya ? 
Because you seemed to have placed him below.



> Tsunade has better feats of fighting against 5 susanoos at the same time.


Irrelevant. 
Every kage fought 5 susano'o at the same time, does Mei also have higher portrayal because of that ? 



> Yeah, Oro without his perfected ET, or Zetsu body.
> That's like saying Lee is still stronger than Naruto and Sasuke because he defeated them in part 1.
> Do you also believe that Lee is stronger than madara, and Tayuya is stronger than itachi because she 1 shotted him?


You'r starting to contradict yourself. You placed Orochimaru, Itachi and Tsunade in the same spot and Jiraiya above them, along with Pain.

But now you are using Oro's war arc ET to justify his superiority to Itachi but how come he isn't superior to Jiraiya or Tsunade too ? 
If he is, then why isn't he placed above them in your list ? 




> Itachi's hype and portrayed has ALWAYS been together with the sannin.


Itachi's hype and portrayal exceeded Sannin the moment we learned that he defeated Orochimaru with no difficulty when he was basically a kid.
Listen to your own advice.
Is Lee stronger than Sasuke and Naruto because he defeated them in part 1 ?



> From the manga statements, to the Databooks stats, to his role with Sasuke compared to Jiraiya's role with Narudo. He just so happened to have a larger fan-base. That's all.


you mean how both Naruto and Sasuke hung out with a Sannin during the 2.5 yearst skip ? How Sasuke had the snake theme like Oro and how Naruto had the frog theme like Jiraiya ? 
Ok but how does Itachi fit in ?


----------



## The 64 Gates of Jyuuken (Jun 8, 2015)

Obito
Nagato
8 Gated Gai
Itachi 
Orochimaru
Sasori/Kakashi
Kakazu
Gai
Kisame
Deidara
Konan
Hidan


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## S (Jun 8, 2015)

DMS Kakashi

8 Gate Gai











Obito
Gai
Nagato
Kakashi
Itachi
than the rest


----------



## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

> [=Grimmjowsensei;53752064]Itachi was on Konoha's side, he wanted to retreat from Kakashi & Co as well. Had to defeat them when they pressed on. Jiraiya made no attempt to pursue, so there was no reason to fight a battle he had absolutely no reason to.


Must be why he was trying to kill Kurnai here, right? 
Link removed
As for the second part, he only retreated when Gai came in

Also, please explain to us how is trying to kidnap Naruto is on Konoha's side? 


> How did that happen  ?
> 
> 
> Oh, so you think War ARC Oro is weaker than Jiraiya ?
> Because you seemed to have placed him below.



Nice try, but I believe I said , no? 



> Irrelevant.
> Every kage fought 5 susano'o at the same time, does Mei also have higher portrayal because of that ?


Fighting 5 Susanoo at the same time for hours surely does not support itachi's fans claim on how he will defeat everyone on no time. And yes, Mei got a better betrayed on that. Keep in mind that Mei couldn't even use her special jutsu (The Acid) so she won't be hurting her allies, and we know that her acid's effect on the susanoo is better than her lava. 

With that being said, it is unfortunate that we haven't been given the chance to actually see the battle, so we don't really know what they used or what not... 



> You'r starting to contradict yourself. You placed Orochimaru, Itachi and Tsunade in the same spot and Jiraiya above them, along with Pain.


I putted the link above. I SPECIFICALLY stated that I placed Oro WITHOUT his ET, and since it's a HUGE different, yes, I placed him under Jiraiya because of that. 



> But now you are using Oro's war arc ET to justify his superiority to Itachi but how come he isn't superior to Jiraiya or Tsunade too ?
> If he is, then why isn't he placed above them in your list ?


I placed him in their level based on HIS own power. However, in the quote you quoted in the previous post is in regard to his full power WITH ET, so I am making 2 claims there. 

1- Oro WITH ET, he is above all of them obviously.
2- Oro WITHOUT ET, he is one the same level as Tsunade and itachi.

And yes, I do know that match ups WILL make a different, but I am rating them as on a general level.
So, although I putted him on the same level as Oro, but I know that itachi will win against Oro, and although I place Jiraiya above Oro, but chances are, Oro is going to win against him.

Just like how I place Kisame higher than Deidara, but I always mention that Kisame will lose against him, and so on. 



> Itachi's hype and portrayal exceeded Sannin the moment we learned that he defeated Orochimaru with no difficulty when he was basically a kid.
> Listen to your own advice.
> Is Lee stronger than Sasuke and Naruto because he defeated them in part 1 ?



Lol no. Oro is obsessed with the sharingan, and he is another uchiha wanker. You won't see Tsunade and Jiraiya trying to ride itachi's dick and have fantasies about his body as Oro do around the uchiha. As such, we have seen Tsunade taking on 5 clones with V3 Susanoo by herself.


Thinking itachi defeating Oro means he will defeat 2 other people that have COMPLETELY different fighting style, and has absolutly NOTHING to do with each other in regard of fighting style and mindset if absolutly laughable.  

Hell, you, yourself don't apply that logic when it comes to itachi even tho he is compared to characters that have EXACTLY the same damn thing. Like if you wanna compare itachi to the Kages based on Sasuke fighting them, or itachi compared to Minato and Tobirama in term of Obito and Izuna

and here we were comparing characters that ALL from the same clan, that have MS, and when it comes to Sasuke, who has Susanoo and Amatersu/Enton, and yet people assume that the Kages who dealt with those same jutsus will stand helpless if it were itachi.

And here you think that logic applies better to characters who have completetly different fighting styles? Don't you think that's a little bit,,,, you know, a hyp...or let's say, not fair? 



> you mean how both Naruto and Sasuke hung out with a Sannin during the 2.5 yearst skip ? How Sasuke had the snake theme like Oro and how Naruto had the frog theme like Jiraiya ?
> Ok but how does Itachi fit in ?



How does Itachi fit in? Let me see. 

1- In term of the story itself, when itachi fought Sasuke, JIRAIYA was fighting Pain at the same time.
2- Both of them died at the same arc so their STRONGEST move would be passed down to Naruto and Sasuke so they would be *comparable*. 

Because you don't see Sasuke getting Oro's 8-headed snakes to be compared to Narudo's SM. 
Rather, they got MS and SM, which made the rivalry between them continue, although NARUTO was the one superior as indication that SM > MS. 

3- When Sasuke learned about what happened with itachi, he decided to avenge him by going against Konoha. When Narudo learned about Jiraiya, he decided to avenge him to go against Pain. 

4- When the Databook came out, it was Oro & Tsunade = 35/40, and itachi AND JIRAIYA = 35.5
seems pretty comparable to me. 

5- When Kishi wanted to tell us about their power, he told us that itachi is stronger than Oro after the Hiruzen battle. However, when it came to Jiraiya, he told us that Jiraiya is stronger than itachi.

So, itachi fits in between the two. 

and then we got the whole Senju and uchiha being comparable as well, and what do you know, Tsunade IS a senju which is compared to the uchiha, AND a sannin, that itachi's level has always been compared to.  


Notice those comparisons are about their power level  either directly or indirectly. 


But, then we come to the Hokages, and although I view Tobirama as a watered down copy of those who came after him (I.E Oro, Minato, Kabuto, and Naruto), but besides that, has itachi EVER been compared to any Hokage in term of power? I sure don't remember any moment.  

You said previously that itachi defeating Oro means he is superior to the other sannin. Then why not seeing the Hokages defeating MS users who are most likely more powerful than itachi does not?  

Sorry for writing too much.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 8, 2015)

Okay let's be real here..... Itachi clearly parallels Minato, while Jirayia parallels Oro. That's blatantly obvious.  
Itachi is like a father figure to Sasuke.


----------



## Empathy (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kisame's power fluctuates drastically depending on how much chakra he's eaten up. Mr. Mountain Buster _lost_ to Kisame, and I (along with many others) see B as _Itachi's_ superior. Kisame even _said this himself_ to an extent. A man with the potential handle a High-Kage Perfect Jinchuriki is most definitely not _always_ so far below the level of Itachi or the Sannin that he wouldn't be relevant in a fight between them



I'm aware Kisame's power level fluctuates. I also agree that Bee is on Itachi's level, even if I don't consider him Itachi's superior. It was heavily emphasized that Kisame's fighting style is a great counter to jinchuuriki, and that he was best of Akatsuki at capturing jinchuuriki alive. It's why most don't consider Kisame around Bee's level, even though he defeated him—the match-up conditions heavily favored Kisame. Also, Bee was lowered beneath Kisame's level just as much as Kisame grew to supplant him. I don't really see the relevance in bringing it up, as Kisame was only restored to his standard level when fighting Gai. It's not as if Kisame did things he couldn't ordinarily do against Gai. 

My point in bringing it up was that Gai's a good match for Kisame, for relying on taijutsu instead ninjutsu, whereas Kisame's fighting style hinges on countering the latter (which the vast majority of shinobi rely on). It played a large role in Kisame's defeat. Without Samehada, Kisame lost a means to heal. He looked much worse after Bee's _rariatto_ than he did after _Hirudora_ (or at least comparable). He already rejuvenated himself with stolen chakra on his own, and I don't see a reason he couldn't have stolen chakra from Gai before the fight escalated. Kisame always dominated base Gai physically. The point of the thread is merely to rank based on strength. I think Gai, Kisame, Deidara, Orochimaru et cetera can all potentially give Itachi high difficulty, but the point is that Itachi is always established as clearly superior to them all. I don't think Itachi would stomp Kisame, but the relationship between the two is clear that Itachi is the recognizable better (and this shouldn't be the case with Kakashi and Gai). 



> Early PII Gai obliterated Shoten Kisame in one move upon ascending to the Sixth Gate, and War Arc Gai obliterated a Juiced Kisame (Samehada would have been irrelevant here without absorbed chakra to heal Kisame with) in one move upon ascending to the Seventh Gate. Kisame was never competitive with those Gates like Madara was with the Eighth. As soon as Gai used them, Kisame lost ten seconds later.



Kisame wasn't, "_juiced_," against Gai. He was just restored from being an emaciated weakling. You and Jad honestly don't seem to understand hype when taken into context. The point of the Itachi and Kisame clones being defeated after all that effort was to hype the Akatsuki members. We, as the readers, are suppose to hear Kisame mention that they were only using 30% of their strength and think, "_Wow! They're *that* strong with only 30%?_. 75% of _Hachimon_ had to be opened against just less than a third of Kisame's strength. Gai versus _Shoten_ Kisame was meant to hype Kisame. I don't see the relevance in _Asa Kujaku_ defeating _Shoten_ Kisame in, "_one move_," especially when it's not like that one move consists of one casual punch, but is essentially just a ton of moves. 

If Deidara kills all of the Sannin with _C4_ in one move, or Kakashi instantly defeats Hashirama with _Kamui_ in one move, does that mean they weren't required to use the best of their ability to not get annihilated?—or should we consider it a testament to their strength that they're capable of such things and doing so right of the bat to avoid defeat constitutes no difficulty, and thus Kakashi should be placed ahead of Hashirama? I'm aware the disparity between Gai and Kisame is not the same, but the fact of the matter is that Gai was *required* to use that level of his strength to defeat that level of Kisame. It's a portrayal argument. Do you mean to tell me that if Lee succeeded in defeating Gaara, it would've qualified as a low difficulty win, despite Lee having to go all out to survive? The exact same thing happened with Gai versus base Kisame. 

Gai had to go all out to survive, or Kisame would've killed him. Madara was hardly putting up a fight against Gai, and just got stomped to a lesser degree, because Gai never could've killed him through physical means. The nature of _Hachimon_ has always been a double-edged sword, because really the only way of stopping it has been with defense necessary to outlast it and then finish them once they're exhausted. It's how Gaara defeated Lee and Madara defeated Gai. The only difference with Kisame is that he didn't have the means to outlast Gai without Samehada once the aftereffects kicked in. 

The fact that Kisame wasn't somehow matching _Kyomon_ Gai blow-for-blow in a dragged-out slug-fest doesn't change the fact that Gai was still incapacitated for days as a result of his fight with Kisame. Also, while Kakashi is a dynamic character, whose strength grew continuously from the start of the series to the end, early part II Gai means the same thing to me as part I Jiraiya, part I Asuma, or start of part II Yamato. Gai is a static supporting character, who should be as strong as he was in part I as he was in part II. When we first saw Gai use the _Keimon_ or _Kyomon_, we don't think that Gai just newly acquired and learned this ability, but rather Gai is merely showing something he was already capable of. Gai's always been suspected as capable of opening all eight gates, which had the greatest hype of all at the time they were first mentioned. 



> You also talk about The Masters' early portrayal, but that _clearly_ changed once the war started. They went to being Wind Naruto level and irrelevant in a fight with a battle worn Pain to dancing with Rinnegan Obito and, in Gai's case, JJ Madara. He even fought roughly on par with Madara in the Eight Gate;



As I mentioned earlier, I don't think Gai changed at all (I don't think his power is irrelevant to Itachi or Jiraiya either). I also mentioned earlier that I only consider Kakashi at base Naruto's level during concurrent junctures; so Immortals arc Kakashi and fuuton Naruto on the same level, Kage Summit Kakashi compared to Kage Summit base Naruto, war arc Kakashi compared to war arc base Naruto, etc. There are plenty of high tiers capable of, "_dancing with Rinnegan Obito_," when grouped together. Gai was only fighting in base, and he didn't show any newly found ability or aptitude. Base Gai wouldn't accomplish anything against Obito on his own, nor would he be any use against Pain. Honestly, Confining Jinchuuriki arc Gai could defeat Pain (only Animal Path could stand in his way) if he caught Deva on cool-down like Naruto. 

Katsuyu's statement was only to save Naruto the glory, and I guess it meant that his attacks could harm Naruto and other survivors. Gai's power-up to top tier I don't consider any more relevant than Kakashi's power-up top tier, unless you're talking about _Kyomon_ Gai getting defeated in a few more panels than everybody else—which is more a testament to his incredible striking speed, and not something you can assume that Gai couldn't have done during the Confining Jinchuuriki arc. Kakashi had to neuter Obito to stand a chance against him (Obito loses a lot more without _Kamui_ than Kakashi does), and even then Obito was only trying to have Kakashi impale his heart. Itachi, however, was treated as a credible threat to Obito using his full strength to the extent where I couldn't decide who was stronger in my list. I consider Itachi comparable to Minato in strength, and we saw how Minato fared against Obito. _Sennin_ Naruto fared a lot better than Kakashi against Pain (Kakashi also wondered how Jiraiya could fight all six), and blindness saved Kakashi from having more arrows fire at him than he could warp against MS Sasuke. 



> you think _one_ Gate takes him from below Kakuzu all the way up to Jubi Madara?



Of course I do. 

_Hirudora_ didn't show the strength to defeat Kakuzu with _Doton: Domu_ (base Kisame survived it, and Kakuzu survived base Naruto's _Rasenshuriken_ without _Domu_). Therefore, Kakuzu would survive the beating with only his doton heart remaining, and be able to take Gai's heart once he exhausts himself. The same would happen with Orochimaru versus Gai. We've known since part I that opening the last gate grants the user strength that eclipses all Hokages combined (the absolute strongest thing we knew of at the time). Even if Gai somehow were on Itachi's level, the gap from him to only above Hashirama (not to mention plus Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Minato) is absolutely gargantuan. What difference does it make if Gai goes from Kisame's level to Juubi jinchuuriki Madara's level with just one gate (the last one), or if instead it's merely a transition from Itachi to Juubi jinchuuriki. Kakuzu and Itachi are both universes apart from Juubi jinchuuriki Madara. 



> I don't know if they're equal to Itachi, but they're much closer to him than they are Kakuzu or Deidara.



This is only the case if you consider Kisame recognizably stronger than Deidara and Kakuzu, which I do not. Anyway, Kakashi had to be saved from getting killed Kakuzu and Gai had to be saved from getting killed by Deidara, so I think you could've picked better Akatsuki members to use as examples. Kakashi gets a pass, since he was allowed to progress after Kakuzu's death (I still don't think he'd beat him easily), but Gai hasn't shown anything that would prevent exactly what happened against Deidara from happening again. 

Jad doesn't seem to understand that one _Sekizo_ would kill Gai just as much as six _Sekizos_ and a _Yagai_ would. It's more of a time limit once opening it than it is a physical limit.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> and I (along with many others) see B as _Itachi's_ superior.



Ridiculous. ​


Rocky said:


> A man with the potential handle a High-Kage Perfect Jinchuriki is most definitely not _always_ so far below the level of Itachi or the Sannin that he wouldn't be relevant in a fight between them.



Itachi said that, not Kisame. All Kisame said was that the title of Sannin shadowed them, and he wasn't sure how he'd fair. Itachi's the one that exaggerated the threat.​


Rocky said:


> Early PII Gai obliterated Shoten Kisame in one move upon ascending to the Sixth Gate



Which the real Kisame (with Samehada) would regenerate from. It should also be noted that the clone casually captured Neji and Lee and smacked Gai to the bottom of the ocean before the trump.​


----------



## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

Likes boss;53752297[B said:
			
		

> ]*Okay let's be real here*[/B]..... Itachi clearly parallels Minato, while Jirayia parallels Oro. That's blatantly obvious.
> Itachi is like a father figure to Sasuke.



the irony. 

1- paralleling means jackshit. 

Naruto, Obito, Hashirama, Nawaki, Minato, Dan, B, Kiba, Jiraiya, Yahiko, Nagato, Kushina, and Bolt.

All of them parallels each other =/= they are on the same level. And there is nothing to says that
the parallel has to be with 1 person, is there? 

2- What are those imaginary parallels exactly? Because I sure can't remember Kishi making them. 
Perhaps you can bring to us those manga scans you have for Kishi comparing itachi to Minato?

Go ahead, you have 700 chapters, and you have all the time you need. 



> itachi is like a father figure to Sasuke.



No, he is his brother. I believe that has been made obvious. 
Not as if that means jackshit, all people have parents. 

I guess then itachi true rival is Iruka?


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## Veracity (Jun 8, 2015)

I mean it's pretty blatant. I really shouldn't have to explain it to you. But when I say that Minato and Itachi parallel eachother, I don't mean in strength at all. Minato's clearly a cut above Itachi,


----------



## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

The thing is, they don't. 

the parallels between those characters (and others) are fan-made. Kishi just loves to recycle things over and over and over again. It, however, does not go anything beyond that. It almost as bad as when people were comparing Sakura to Kushina, and basing their entire argument in a false ground. 

The fans, do make those stuff base on their own agenda. Hell, people even say Hinata is just like Minato as well. 
everyone can made those parallels with the characters they want even if they have nothing to do with each other. lol


----------



## Empathy (Jun 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Gates got the same boost as Kakashi's Kamui. Asa Kujaku jumped from roughly one-person AoE(with DB confirming that)



I'm interested in the DB entry for that. Is it from the fourth one?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The thing is, they don't.



Saying Minato is Itachi's parallel is a disservice to Itachi anyway. Minato's a less intelligent, less versatile version of Itachi.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Must be why he was trying to kill Kurnai here, right?
> _said this himself_
> As for the second part, he only retreated when Gai came in
> 
> ...



This completely off  topic, and I am not really going to spoon feed very clear and basic information to you, the same information that everyone here learned by themselves by readin the manga.

If contextually, we are talking about Orochimaru without ET(you said you placed him on par with Itachi discounting ET), then why are you trying to justfiy his superiority by mentioning his ET ? 
Also if the databook stat total is indicator of anything, then why did you place Itachi among with Oro and Tsunade and not Jiriaya ?

Also I just want to hear it one more time, do you really think 5 kage have better portrayal than Itachi because they fought 5 Susano'o clones ?


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## StickaStick (Jun 8, 2015)

Nagato
Obito (MS)
Itachi / *Kakashi (War-Arc) / Gai (7th-Gate capped)*
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakazu
Konan
Hidan / *Sharingan-less Kakashi*
*Wheelchair Gai*

Obviously this is based on overall levels and not match-ups. I didn't place Gai w/8th-Gate considering it's difficult to place him above, say, a Nagato when despite that fact that he dwarfs him power-wise once in the 8th-Gate, the mere usage of the 8th-Gate results in an automatic draw. So to say he's _stronger _ than a Nagato is imo true and not true at the same time, if that makes sense.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Which the real Kisame (with Samehada) would regenerate from. It should also be noted that the clone casually captured Neji and Lee and smacked Gai to the bottom of the ocean before the trump.



There's no chakra in Asa Kujaku for Kisame to use, so he wouldn't regenerate.


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## Mercurial (Jun 8, 2015)

*Kakashi (DMS with PS + Rikudo chakra)
Gai (8th Gate)*

 - abysmal gap -

Obito (MS + Rinnegan)
Obito (MS)
*Kakashi (War Arc 1 MS)
Gai (up to 7th Gate released)*
Nagato
Nagato (Six Paths of Pain)

*Kakashi (Shippuden pre War Arc)*
Itachi
Zetsu
Kisame
*Kakashi (post War Arc with no Sharingan)*
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori

Konan
Hidan

I didn't rank post War Arc wheelchair Gai because it's hard to do that... he can't move on his feet but in the novel he performed very well also showing his arms are perfectly fine (he even used the Soshuga nunchaku); if he can still release Asa Kujaku and Hiru Tora he has still hella strong attacks at his disposal, and technically he can open the 8th Gate again.



Rocky said:


> There's no chakra in Asa Kujaku for Kisame to use, so he wouldn't regenerate.



Kisame wouldn't even able to do anything in first place, he would be completely blitzed by Gai's speed.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Empathy said:


> I'm interested in the DB entry for that. Is it from the fourth one?


From DB3



> Morning Peacock (朝孔雀, Asa Kujaku)
> Taijutsu, A-rank, Offensive, *Short range (0-5m)*
> User: Might Guy
> 
> ...



To me it looks like it was originally a concentrated barrage of flamy punches. With those mini-fireballs being an aftereffect of Gai punching the shit out of his enemy. And not a vital offensive part.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 9, 2015)

Below Nagato and Obito while on the same tier as Itachi.


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## RBL (Jun 9, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> *Kakashi (DMS with PS + Rikudo chakra)
> Gai (8th Gate)*
> 
> - abysmal gap -
> ...



i thought some months or a year ago you said you admitted gai being stronger than kakashi, why did u change ur opinion now.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

Literally Sasori is one of Gai's worst match ups in Akatsuki alongside Obito and Nagato, because Gai starts matches by fighting in CQC in Base and he can poison Gai before Gai gets a chance to up his game to 6th, 7th, and 8th Gates. Obito and Nagato are the only worse match ups because Obito can use Kamui/Izanagi to stall while Gates run their course and Nagato is thee absolute worst because even if Gai beats Pain-Rikudo with 8th-Gate Nagato would still be fine and Gai would be dead. 

Everyone else in Akatsuki gets murdered by Gai and it's only a matter off how many Gates he needs to use to own them. 

As for the overall rankings of the masters i'll copy and paste my list from the other thread:

* Gai [8th-Gate]
    Kakashi [DMS]*
1. Orochimaru [Edo-Tensei]
2. Nagato
3. Obito
*Gai [6th/7th-Gate]*
4. Kisame [Hopped up on Bijuu chakra]
5. Hiruzen [Prime]/Edo-Itachi
6. Jiraiya
7. Sasori/Orochimaru [P1-Edo-Tensei]
*    Kakashi [War-Arc]*
8. Itachi [Hebi-Sasuke Fight]/Hiruzen [Old]
9. Tsunade [War-Arc]
10. Orochimaru [Armless and Bodyless]
* Kakashi [Kages/Pain-Arc]*
11. Kakuzu
*Gai [5 or less Gates]*
12. Deidara
13. Kisame [No Bijuu Chakra]
* Kakashi [P1]*
*Gai [Base]*
14. Hidan

Gai's power fluctuates dramatically that's why I ranked him many times based on what Gated Form he's using, rather than putting him on a 1 specific spot, which I think is impossible because Base-Gai is so tremendously weaker than 8th-Gate Gai, that he could loose to shinobi much weaker than his 8th-Gate Self, like a Sasori. 

Kakashi on the other hand is a bit easier to rank. In P1 he was strong enough to give Non-Bijuu-Chakra Kisame significant problems, but Itachi still seemed to think Kisame would win, hence his placement. Than after PII improvements Kakashi was implied capable of defeating Kakuzu if push really came to shuve, but he would end up in the hospital for the effort and Kakuzu was already down a few hearts due to their team effort, so he may have even needed to die if he went up against Kakuzu alone to win, so I think he was fairly close to Kakuzu throughout most of PII. Than came the war-arc and Kakashi's skills improved, but he still suffered side-effects from MS, so I place him a bit higher than Old-Hiruzen and Sick-Itachi, as his side-effects were no longer that bad, but still bad enough where he isn't quite as good as Edo-Hiruzen and Edo-Itachi. I also tend to think he still wasn't quite up to par with a Sannin or Sasori, but I can see that being debated. DMS-Kakashi is clearly above every Akatsuki though.


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## Jad (Jun 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Literally Sasori is one of Gai's worst match ups in Akatsuki alongside Obito and Nagato, because Gai starts matches by fighting in CQC in Base and he can poison Gai before Gai gets a chance to up his game to 6th, 7th, and 8th Gates. Obito and Nagato are the only worse match ups because Obito can use Kamui/Izanagi to stall while Gates run their course and Nagato is thee absolute worst because even if Gai beats Pain-Rikudo with 8th-Gate Nagato would still be fine and Gai would be dead.
> 
> Everyone else in Akatsuki gets murdered by Gai and it's only a matter off how many Gates he needs to use to own them.
> 
> ...


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

^Can't tell if you have a problem or like the list Jad with that gif


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## Jad (Jun 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> ^Can't tell if you have a problem or like the list Jad with that gif



It's good. Maybe I don't read enough of your posts lol


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## Santoryu (Jun 9, 2015)

0.DMS Kakashi
0.5 Final Gate Gai
1. Rinnegan obito
2. Nagato
*3. Kakashi
3. Gai*
3. Itachi
4. Kisame
5.Kakuzu
6. Sasori
6. Deidara
7. Konan
8. Hidan
9. Zetsu

Even before their most powerful forms (DMS and final gate) were presented, it was quite clear they were a cut above most of the akatasuki. Relevant characters like the masters kept getting stronger throughout the war at an astonishing pace. Akatasuki members like Sasori were surpassed by Kankuro. Even the likes of Rikuddo-Sennin and Sage Madara praised the masters. Their portrayal is top-tier.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

Santoryu said:


> Even before their most powerful forms (DMS and final gate) were presented, it was quite clear they were a cut above most of the akatasuki. Relevant characters like the masters kept getting stronger throughout the war at an astonishing pace. Akatasuki members like Sasori were surpassed by Kankuro. Even the likes of Rikuddo-Sennin and Sage Madara praised the masters. Their portrayal is top-tier.


So according to you it's more logical to believe Kankuro > Sasori, Deidara, Konan, Hidan, and Zetsu. Than it is to accept the downright fact that Kankuro was referring to Edo-Sasori who had none of his puppets.


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## Jad (Jun 9, 2015)

Santoryu said:


> 0.DMS Kakashi
> 0.5 Final Gate Gai
> 1. Rinnegan obito
> 2. Nagato
> ...



Almost the exact same way I ranked my tier list.


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## Santoryu (Jun 9, 2015)

Take it up with the author. 

But the likes of Sasori being closer to Kankuro is more believable than than these mid akatasuki soldiers being anywhere close a duo that gave the likes of Sage Madara trouble. The fact of the matter is that the author intended for the new generation to surpass the previous one, no matter how unconvincing his writing was.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Or maybe Kankuro is suddenly a high-tier Akatsuki level guy. Kishi is funny like that.


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## Umbrella (Jun 9, 2015)

Even a puppet master is nothing without his puppets. Sasori said that.


Also... the Masters ABOVE Itachi is really out there imo. 
Even just being on par is a hard sell. A really hard sell.


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## Santoryu (Jun 9, 2015)

Sasori was merely a reference point. The dude didn't get any stronger since Rescue-Gaara arc. It's no surprise he's significantly weaker than characters that hold their own against end game bosses.






> also... the Masters ABOVE Itachi is really out there imo.


Ranked them all as 3, but not really



> Even just being on par is a hard sell



I don't need to sell it when the author depicts them to be relevant against characters like Sage-Madara.


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## RBL (Jun 9, 2015)

Jad said:


> Almost the exact same way I ranked my tier list.



i read your tier list and it is outdated!


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## Jad (Jun 9, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> i read your tier list and it is outdated!



Very much so...haven't found the time to sit down and change it.


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## Santoryu (Jun 9, 2015)

And while I'm online, I've seen many posters treat Gai's final gate as if it's some external power that doesn't belong to Gai-and use it as an excuse to downplay his "portrayal", 

The author, of course, thinks otherwise: [2]
[2]
[2]


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## Kai (Jun 9, 2015)

The final gate is for all intents and purposes Gai's power; The issue is Gai would rather die by other means than resort to the final gate if he's in a one on one situation. Any Gai fan would acknowledge that as an eternal life rule Gai imposes on himself.

What does that mean for the BD's sake? IC Gai would *not* use Shimon in any 1v1 match.


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## Mercurial (Jun 9, 2015)

Yeah, seems logical. Better die or better die after you have defeated yourself, I guess what's more logical. Gai wouldn't just go and say "let's go 8th Gate for fun" but if he has no other choice, he definitely will.


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## Kai (Jun 9, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Yeah, seems logical. Better die or better die after you have defeated yourself, I guess what's more logical. Gai wouldn't just go and say "let's go 8th Gate for fun" but if he has no other choice, he definitely will.


If Gai has nothing precious around him to protect, he will not use the 8th Gate.


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## Mercurial (Jun 9, 2015)

Santoryu said:


> 0.DMS Kakashi
> 0.5 Final Gate Gai
> 1. Rinnegan obito
> 2. Nagato
> ...



I don't see why either Kakashi (War Arc with 1 MS) or Gai (8th Gate excluded) should be under Nagato's level. Kakashi with Kamui can oneshot Nagato without the latter being able to counter it or to do anything before, Gai can blitz Nagato and release Hiru Tora in his face. Gai is said from the 3rd databook to be able to fight more than equally with everyone in the Akatsuki, and Kakashi is obviously portrayed to be his slightly superior rival (8th Gate excluded, clearly). Both Masters' portrayal in the War Arc speaks alone, let alone their feats.


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## Mercurial (Jun 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> If Gai has nothing precious around him to protect, he will not use the 8th Gate.



So in your logic, let's say Gai is walking randomly, meets opponent X and fights him. Even opening the 8th Gate, he has to admit that he can't win the fight, and that the opponent will probably defeat and kill him. Do you think that Gai will stand still letting himself being killed, continue wasting energies with unsuccessful attacks and then being killed, or open the 8th Gate, rape his opponent and then die because of the effort? The "nothing precious around him to protect" is something that hasn't to be taken literally. It's just to say that one has to use the Gates only when really needed, it's the same thing that goes for every Gate, not only the last one. Gai teached that to Lee with things like 1st Gate, or 3rd or 5th Gate to say. It goes the same for Gai if he has to open the 5th Gate for example. If he feels he has to, he will. Simply as it is.


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## Umbrella (Jun 9, 2015)

Being able to not be instantly annihilated and contribute in a team setting is hardly material imo. In that sense Gaara may as well be arbitrarily Itachi level too. Any competent Kage or S-rank character could do the same.

And tbh there really is no reason given by the narrative for us to believe that these two have improved so drastically that they go from nearly being solo'd by an exhausted, armless Deidara - a guy self admittedly weaker than Sasori to begin with... to being Itachi's peers. No super special training, no new modes of any kind, nada. This isn't Nardo and Sauce we're talking about here.


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## Kai (Jun 9, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> So in your logic, let's say Gai is walking randomly, meets opponent X and fights him. Even opening the 8th Gate, he has to admit that he can't win the fight, and that the opponent will probably defeat and kill him. Do you think that Gai will stand still letting himself being killed, continue wasting energies with unsuccessful attacks and then being killed, or open the 8th Gate, rape his opponent and then die because of the effort? The "nothing precious around him to protect" is something that hasn't to be taken literally. It's just to say that one has to use the Gates only when really needed, it's the same thing that goes for every Gate, not only the last one. Gai teached that to Lee with things like 1st Gate, or 3rd or 5th Gate to say. It goes the same for Gai if he has to open the 5th Gate for example. If he feels he has to, he will. Simply as it is.


I suggest you read Chapter 668 again.

It visits how Gai learned the Hachimon Tonko techniques, but more importantly the purpose and reason behind using the 8th and final gate. 


So yes, Gai would rather die against his opponent than unleash the 8th Gate if he is by himself. Why would he do that? Gai is the type of person to put his life on the line to uphold his life rules.

He would never use the 8th Gate just to win a fight. Winning or losing doesn't factor in to the decision.


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## Mercurial (Jun 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> I suggest you read Chapter 668 again.
> 
> It visits how Gai learned the Hachimon Tonko techniques, but more importantly the purpose and reason behind using the 8th and final gate.
> 
> ...



That's exactly what it's said to Rock Lee. Rock Lee used the Gates for a completely individual fight.



Umbrella said:


> Being able to not be instantly annihilated and contribute in a team setting is hardly material imo. In that sense Gaara may as well be arbitrarily Itachi level too. Any competent Kage or S-rank character could do the same.
> 
> And tbh there really is no reason given by the narrative for us to believe that these two have improved so drastically that they go from nearly being solo'd by an exhausted, armless Deidara - a guy self admittedly weaker than Sasori to begin with... to being Itachi's peers. No super special training, no new modes of any kind, nada. This isn't Nardo and Sauce we're talking about here.



You must have been not reading Naruto since chapter 001, or somewhere around that.

Are you joking? Deidara admitted inferiority to Kakashi twice times at least, if not three. He even said he was weaker than Sasori to make Kakashi go to help Sakura and Chiyo against the puppet master thus leaving Naruto alone. Because by feats Deidara blows up Sasori 24 hours everyday. That was a Kakashi that hasn't mastered his Mangekyo, had far less chakra, showed inferior feats in speed, jutsu and so on. Team Gai was exhausted having fought against theirselves for a long period of time, and Deidara evaded only fucking Tenten, Gai would have kicked his shit in the space if he had tried to. Gai is said from the 3rd databook to be able to fight more than equally with everyone in the Akatsuki, and Kakashi is obviously portrayed to be his slightly superior rival (8th Gate excluded, clearly). Both Masters' portrayal in the War Arc speaks alone, let alone their feats. Madara, the same person who seed the Gokage as flies and talks shit about EMS Sasuke's Amaterasu, fucking acknowledged Kakashi's Kamui as a worthy thread wielded by a powerful dojutsu user, and 7th Gate Gai showed a performance that eclipses SM Minato's. KCM Minato was out of options against the Gedo Mazo, while Kakashi could oneshot it. And there are many and many things I don't even waste my time to write, because you missed like 97% of the manga.


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## RBL (Jun 9, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> That's exactly what it's said to Rock Lee. Rock Lee used the Gates for a completely individual fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i agree with ur post, but why would u think kakashi is a slighty superior rival than gai?

even kakashi admitted and showed respect with the sakumo flashback, that gai had surpassed him, not contradicting you tho, i just want to hear your opinion because i always tend to agree with the majority of your posts.


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## Mercurial (Jun 9, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> i agree with ur post, but why would u think kakashi is a slighty superior rival than gai?
> 
> even kakashi admitted and showed respect with the sakumo flashback, that gai had surpassed him, not contradicting you tho, i just want to hear your opinion because i always tend to agree with the majority of your posts.



Well because in databook 3rd Kakashi is said to be Konoha's number one shinobi (1), and mostly because Gai seems to imply that Kakashi is slightly, but someway, above him (2), and I feel like Kakashi admitting that Gai is stronger than him only after having witnessed Gai's power in the 8th Gate state (3) kinda like implies this. Anyway these two's power levels are totally close one to another, they're basically equals with both having oustanding feats.


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## Yagura (Jun 9, 2015)

Below the Dojutsu trio and Orochimaru, on par with Kisame and Deidara. Maybe Kakuzu too. Above Konan, Hidan, and Zetsu. Sasori is either on par or above.


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## RBL (Jun 9, 2015)

Yagura said:


> Below the Dojutsu trio and Orochimaru, on par with Kisame and Deidara. Maybe Kakuzu too. Above Konan, Hidan, and Zetsu. Sasori is either on par or above.



Gai and kakashi, are on itachi's level, and tiers above sasori.


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## Yagura (Jun 9, 2015)

Gai is taken out by finger Genjutsu. Kakashi by either Amaterasu or Susano'o. 
He could arguably take both on at once.

They aren't on his level.


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## Mercurial (Jun 9, 2015)

Yagura said:


> Gai is taken out by finger Genjutsu. Kakashi by either Amaterasu or Susano'o.
> He could arguably take both on at once.
> 
> They aren't on his level.



Sadly, part 1 ended almost 10 years ago. Time to move pal.

Gai just rapes Itachi, plain and simple. Kakashi negs him too, long range Kamui is an offense far faster and more haxxed than Amaterasu, and can simply bypass Susanoo, warping either Susanoo with Itachi in it or Itachi in Susanoo.

Move on. We are in 2015.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

Santoryu said:


> Take it up with the author.


I don't have to take it up with Kishi, because Kishimoto is very clear in the original Japanese that Kankuro is referring to Edo-Sasori, who no longer has any puppets and has lost his will. 



> But the likes of Sasori being closer to Kankuro is more believable than than these mid akatasuki soldiers being anywhere close a duo that gave the likes of Sage Madara trouble. The fact of the matter is that the author intended for the new generation to surpass the previous one, no matter how unconvincing his writing was.


I would believe Sasori getting a lucky hit and poisoning Sage-Madara, before i'd believe Kankuro beating Sasori at full power. That's how ridiculous that is. 

And Kakashi could never step to Sage-Madara outside of DMS and I never said Gai is inferior to Sasori.


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## Kai (Jun 9, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> That's exactly what it's said to Rock Lee. Rock Lee used the Gates for a completely individual fight.


Shimon was the connection between the flashback and the present, not the Hachimon no Tonko as a whole.

Gai would never use the 8th Gate just to win a fight. He has a strict rule he will never break.


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## LostSelf (Jun 9, 2015)

If said opponent is a threat to Konoha, like the Akatsuki, he might be able to.

however, Gai should still be respectfully placed counting his last gate. Because he still has that power.


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## Ersa (Jun 9, 2015)

Obito
Nagato
Itachi
*Kakashi
[*]Gai*
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Konan
Kakuzu
Hidan
Zetsu
Given their War feats they are decisively above mid tier Akatsuki level but that's about it. They don't win against people above that although they can give them trouble. And if we're talking about the cream of the crop Akatsuki (Rinnegan Obito, Edo dojutsu duo) they might as well lube up because they'll get stomped.


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## Yagura (Jun 9, 2015)

> Gai just rapes Itachi, plain and simple. Kakashi negs him too





> I don't see why either Kakashi (War Arc with 1 MS) or Gai (8th Gate excluded) should be under Nagato's level.


You're trying too hard.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 15, 2015)

These lists make me cringe.


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## RBL (Jun 15, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> These lists make me cringe.



i know.

gai already soloed whole akatsuki with his weights on.

he should be 1.- and with a huge gap.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2015)

i think the bone of contention here is again how itachi is ranked compared to kakashi and gai which again i dont know why but it was an obvious turn of events 

as for gai, i really dont see how he can go into gates before amaterasu burns him should itachi opt for that right of the bat 

kakashi of course can deal with such. What however i dont see him being able to deal with is itachi off the bat using V4 susanoo. kakashi cant wrap something that big, V4 susanoo is bigger than GM arm btw 

*itachi also cant deal with kamui off the bat. let that just be said. kakashi opts for that. itachi dies, straight and simple *

i think what everyone denies is even if its polled it would be 50/50 

gai can take out itachi depending on the circumstances as can itachi

same for kakashi here

they are all on the same level, hence why NF cant seem to not clash when it comes to where to place them


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