# Juggernaut vs. Luke Skywalker



## Pinkie Pie (Jan 5, 2012)

The strongest incarnation of the Juggernaut against a titan from Star Wars.


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## Fang (Jan 5, 2012)

So a guy literally getting powered up extra by a being whose above Skyfathers vs Luke Skywalker? Yeah great match. How strong is current Juggs? I have a sneaking suspicion this an attempt at a bait/spite thread.


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## CrazyMoronX (Jan 5, 2012)

Is Juggernaut gonna have to choke a bitch?


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## Zaru (Jan 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion this an attempt at a bait/spite thread.



Unlike most of your Luke threads, right?



Don't bother with your usual "u mad doggie" replies, I'm out of here.


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## mali (Jan 5, 2012)

Luke could most likely take out current Jugg, but not at his strongest.


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## Fang (Jan 5, 2012)

CrazyMoronX said:


> Is Juggernaut gonna have to choke a bitch?



Isn't current Juggs depowered? Luke can probably teleport him away from himself though. Or at least cloak himself. Certainly Luke's skill and range of telepathy and illusions is well beyond what Juggers normally encounters barring Xavier.



Zaru said:


> Unlike most of your Luke threads, right?



Nope. Find a Luke thread I've made at all in the last six months. Oh wait, you can't.



> Don't bother with your usual "u mad doggie" replies, I'm out of here.



Obviously you already mad.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 5, 2012)

Mali said:


> Luke could most likely take out current Jugg, but not at his strongest.



What can current Juggernaut even do? I heard he lost his powers and only has his suit and Worthy hammer. And the hammer's Worthy entity is being fought elsewhere in Defenders.


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## Narcissus (Jan 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> How strong is current Juggs?


Cyttorak stripped him of his powers and transferred them to Colossus.


> I have a sneaking suspicion this an attempt at a bait/spite thread.


It's not.


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## Matta Clatta (Jan 5, 2012)

Juggernaut punches the ground and Luke gets pulped


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## Bit Sean (Jan 5, 2012)

Strongest Juggernaut? So Trion Juggernaut?

Fucking lol?


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## Fang (Jan 5, 2012)

Charcan said:


> What can current Juggernaut even do? I heard he lost his powers and only has his suit and Worthy hammer. And the hammer's Worthy entity is being fought elsewhere in Defenders.



Lol.



Narcissus said:


> Cyttorak stripped him of his powers and transferred them to Colossus.
> 
> It's not.



What has current Jugg shown? Capacity against teleportion powers? Illusions? Removal of the helmet still equal to easy hammering by psychics?


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## Narcissus (Jan 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> What has current Jugg shown? Capacity against teleportion powers? Illusions? Removal of the helmet still equal to easy hammering by psychics?



Currently, he is de-powered.

Though the thread is asking for the strongest incarnation, which is Trion Juggernut.


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## Fang (Jan 5, 2012)

Trion Juggernaught was still susceptible  to BFR wasn't he?


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## CrazyMoronX (Jan 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> What has current Jugg shown? Capacity against teleportion powers? Illusions? Removal of the helmet still equal to easy hammering by psychics?



Actually, in the 8th Day, he gained immense resistance, even immunity, to mind-rape.

The same character that mind-raped Xavier wasn't able to mind-rape Juggernaut after he got up to full steam.

He also has the ability to traverse the Crimson Cosmos, effectively teleporting. Granted that has only happened one time.


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## Narcissus (Jan 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> Trion Juggernaught was still susceptible  to BFR wasn't he?


That would depend on where Luke would try to BFR him to. Trion Juggernaut was punching through dimensional walls.

BFR would be the best option, because Luke really can't harm Juggernaut.


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## Fang (Jan 5, 2012)

Into hyperspace or another planet. Luke's ability to illusions is ridiculous, like cloaking entire planets from sight or making dopplegangers, etc...Right now he's fighting a Lovecraftian horror of the dark side who required two black holes made by a super civilization by normal SW standards to seal her.

He could use Fold-Space simply to move Juggs to a different planet or simply cloak himself in the Force. Not sure how Trion Juggs does against illusions either but since Luke has Shatterpoints, it'll tell him what to do to at least get away from him.


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## Narcissus (Jan 5, 2012)

Well as far as illusions go, Juggernaut's helmet protects him from mindrape in the first place; even Xavier needs it removed to affect Cain. 

Fold-space might be the best option, provided that they're fighting on a planet.

Though you have to remember that Juggernaut isn't going to stand still and allow Luke to be the only one to attack.


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## Lucifeller (Jan 5, 2012)

BFR isn't a 100% surefire option since Trion Juggernaut has shown what is basically the ability to walk through dimensions to move from one point to another. He has a means of returning to the battle, and since it involves walking through a parallel dimension where the concept of distance doesn't appear to be the same as the human world, distance is unlikely to be an issue either.

What Trion Juggs did was basically planeswalking, which is admittedly extremely broken - then again, that was Juggernaut at his most broken, so it makes sense in context.

Luke's best option there is... to run away, really. But that kind of counts as throwing the fight, doesn't it? Granted, it's also the sane thing to do - why would anyone want to fight a battle they KNOW can't be won, just delayed?


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## Emperor Joker (Jan 5, 2012)

Charcan said:


> What can current Juggernaut even do? I heard he lost his powers and only has his suit and Worthy hammer. And the hammer's Worthy entity is being fought elsewhere in Defenders.



Actually that Hulk's Worthy spiirit that the Defenders are going to fight...Nul Breaker of all Worldly laws of Continuity and physics


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 5, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Actually that Hulk's Worthy spiirit that the Defenders are going to fight...



I stand corrected.



> Nul Breaker of all Worldly laws of Continuity and physics



Lul.


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## Fang (Jan 5, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> Well as far as illusions go, Juggernaut's helmet protects him from mindrape in the first place; even Xavier needs it removed to affect Cain.
> 
> Fold-space might be the best option, provided that they're fighting on a planet.
> 
> Though you have to remember that Juggernaut isn't going to stand still and allow Luke to be the only one to attack.



He's got Precognition, Shatterpoints, his own ridiculous reflexes (even stated to his wife that putting illusions on a relativistic starship during a dog fight was tougher for him--though the first time he did it---then destroying warships with his TK), his own super speed, and Fold-Space. I meant though how Cain deals with physical illusions.

Shatterpoints tells someone how to win, what their actions should be to do so, and what the weaknesses of their opponent are. I'm not arguing Luke is going to mind-fuck the strongest incarnation of Juggs, but its likely he can just teleport him somewhere far away. Like into hyperspace, where only byronic matter can exist. Probably won't kill him, but incapacitate him long enough for a BFR.

Or just cloak himself and leave. Or maybe just confuse Cain with illusions, I dunno.

Pretty much is either Luke cloaking and leaving, or him BFRing Juggs repeatedly.


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## EpicBroFist (Jan 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> Nope. Find a Luke thread I've made at all in the last six months. Oh wait, you can't.



I don't want to be that guy but yeah....


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## Saint Saga (Jan 5, 2012)

I believe that thread was to test the get backers verse after GM finished fixing their profiles and what not.

So not sure if that counts.


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## Fang (Jan 5, 2012)

It doesn't. Lionel's old "Getbackers are multiversal for no reason" spiel. Not too mention the majority of those Luke threads are made by other posters but tend to backfire, like Fluttershy's attempt with Hazama.


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## Narcissus (Jan 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> He's got Precognition, Shatterpoints, his own ridiculous reflexes (even stated to his wife that putting illusions on a relativistic starship during a dog fight was tougher for him--though the first time he did it---then destroying warships with his TK), his own super speed, and Fold-Space.


The speed and reflexes are pretty well-matched considering that Cain has dealt with the likes of Thor while at his normal level of power. His TK won't be of much use here either.

Fold-space seems to be the most advantageous plan of action.


> I meant though how Cain deals with physical illusions.


What are "physical illusions?"


> Shatterpoints tells someone how to win, what their actions should be to do so, and what the weaknesses of their opponent are. I'm not arguing Luke is going to mind-fuck the strongest incarnation of Juggs, but its likely he can just teleport him somewhere far away. Like into hyperspace, where only byronic matter can exist. Probably won't kill him, but incapacitate him long enough for a BFR.


Depending on the settings, "somewhere far away" won't be enough against someone who could walk through dimensions. Hyperspace seems to be a good plan. I assume you have an instance of Luke teleporting someone into hyperspace?

And there is still the issue of Juggernaut going on the offensive. Just one blow from him would kill Luke.


> Pretty much is either Luke cloaking and leaving, or him BFRing Juggs repeatedly.


As far as Luke's options go, yeah, and the BFR is still questionable.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 6, 2012)

> like Fluttershy's attempt with Hazama


I'll be the judge of that


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## CrimsonAvatar (Jan 6, 2012)

Couldn't Luke just use Force Light to weaken Juggy while simultaneously increasing his own considerable powers and use Mnemotherapy to rip Juggys soul out like he did with Callista Ming and Abeloth


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## Narcissus (Jan 6, 2012)

CrimsonAvatar said:


> Couldn't Luke just use Force Light to weaken Juggy while simultaneously increasing his own considerable powers and use Mnemotherapy to rip Juggys soul out like he did with Callista Ming and Abeloth


Force lightning isn't going to weaken him.

At his normal levels, Juggernaut's forcefield has withstood Thor's godblast. The second Luke tries Juggernaut will walk through it and and kill  him.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 6, 2012)

CrimsonAvatar said:


> Couldn't Luke just use Force Light to weaken Juggy while simultaneously increasing his own considerable powers and use Mnemotherapy to rip Juggys soul out like he did with Callista Ming and Abeloth



I hope this is not a CD dupe, because getting banned for duping right before your ban was set to expire would be awful


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jan 6, 2012)

does cd even dupe


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## Endless Mike (Jan 6, 2012)

I doubt it, I just wouldn't want him to get banned again by doing something dumb like that


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## Blackfeather Dragon (Jan 6, 2012)

Charcan said:


> What can current Juggernaut even do? I heard he lost his powers and only has his suit and Worthy hammer. And the hammer's Worthy entity is being fought elsewhere in Defenders.


ninjaed 


just out of curiosity would luke fair better against worthy Juggs?


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> Fold-space seems to be the most advantageous plan of action. What are "physical illusions?"



As in Luke casts an external illusion over himself or something rather or vs  then making them think of it or broadcasting the illusion telepathically into their minds.



> Depending on the settings, "somewhere far away" won't be enough against someone who could walk through dimensions. Hyperspace seems to be a good plan. I assume you have an instance of Luke teleporting someone into hyperspace?



Abeloth can teleport herself into different places and Luke can use Fold-Space just as well as she can. Plus the fact that his telepathic senses have gone into hyperspace at his earliest (Shadows of Mindor takes place just six months after Return of the Jedi) had him mind-fucking a guy while in hyperspace.

If that's not accepted, then he just Fold-Space Juggs very far away since its a neutral universe setting. Even Cain will get tired of that I assume.



> And there is still the issue of Juggernaut going on the offensive. Just one blow from him would kill Luke.
> As far as Luke's options go, yeah, and the BFR is still questionable.



Precognition would tell Luke that yeah, that he would need his shields up constantly and avoid getting hit. Though I'm wondering if Luke's allowed to manifest himself as Force Spirit since he had no problem doing that 200 years into the future after his time ended.


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## Lucifeller (Jan 6, 2012)

Can't Trion Juggs just thunderclap, though? He's pretty much in the 'severely pissed off Hulk' ballpark strength wise in that form, and depending on proximity, a thunderclap is going to do anything ranging from turning Luke's brain to mush to rupturing his eardrums and sending his balance and awareness to hell in a handbasket. And for all that he's got precog, and amazing reflexes, that doesn't help too terribly much against an omnidirectional shockwave attack like that - only real way to avoid it is get out of the battlefield entirely, but some people around here consider any form of running away through leaving the battlefield as a loss for the one doing it.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

Luke can teleport himself, like Abeloth can. You know, the dark side Lovecraftian horror of Force energy who required a super civilization by SW standards to craft a  super weapon that could move entire star systems and destroy stars or planets across the entire galaxy, and place her on a planet which was backed up by two black holes surrounding another space station built by them to contain her.

Abeloth who can attack even powerful Force Users through their dreams, manifest her tentacles, make physical illusion, cause a Force Psychosis in dozens of Jedi Knights across the galaxy while she was still sealed around the Maw area (star system full of black holes) nearly a decade and half before she broke out, snatch bodies, destroy entire cities with Force energy waves, which cause people to either melt or implode, turn another woman into a bomb that set off a chain of volcanic eruptions on a planet, etc..


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## Gone (Jan 6, 2012)

Lucifeller said:


> Can't Trion Juggs just thunderclap, though? He's pretty much in the 'severely pissed off Hulk' ballpark strength wise in that form



Trion Juggernaut was over 100 feet tall and punching holes in reality, I'm pretty sure he was channeling the full power of Cytorak. Regular Juggy has beaten down a "severly pissed off Hulk" Trion is so far out of Lukes league this has to be a spite thread...

Idk how this is even still being debated.


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## Glued (Jan 6, 2012)

What the hell is this shit, juggernaut at his strongest was punching holes through the dimensions.

Luke does not deserve this.


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## Xelloss (Jan 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Luke can teleport himself, like Abeloth can. You know, the dark side Lovecraftian horror of Force energy who required a super civilization by SW standards to craft a  super weapon that could move entire star systems and destroy stars or planets across the entire galaxy, and place her on a planet which was backed up by two black holes surrounding another space station built by them to contain her.
> 
> Abeloth who can attack even powerful Force Users through their dreams, manifest her tentacles, make physical illusion, cause a Force Psychosis in dozens of Jedi Knights across the galaxy while she was still sealed around the Maw area (star system full of black holes) nearly a decade and half before she broke out, snatch bodies, destroy entire cities with Force energy waves, which cause people to either melt or implode, turn another woman into a bomb that set off a chain of volcanic eruptions on a planet, etc..



And be killed by a lightsaber.


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## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Trion Juggernaut was over 100 feet tall and punching holes in reality, I'm pretty sure he was channeling the full power of Cytorak. Regular Juggy has beaten down a "severly pissed off Hulk" Trion is so far out of Lukes league this has to be a spite thread...
> 
> Idk how this is even still being debated.



Nah just the full power of his gem.

Cyttorak himself, according to Tom Brevoort, is above the likes of Shuma Gorath and Zom. And Cyttorak himself, has made Classic Dr. Strange feel completely powerless. Classic Strange who has fought the fucking LT before.

And Classic Juggernaut, after spending some time in the Crimson Cosmos, gained enough magic power and know how to challenge Classic Nightmare directly to a fight, and actually hold his own. Nightmare had trapped Eternity within that story as well, and Classic Dr. Strange couldn't beat him in that story either. 

Cyttorak is beastly, and Juggernaut, when he wants to be, is far more than just a high end brick.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Cyttorak himself, according to Tom Brevoort, is above the likes of Shuma Gorath and Zom.



Link please.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

Still good enough to whoop Negima and ToAru's collective asses, Xelloss. And precognition and force barriers/shields can let him walk on fucking lava and through megaton+ turbolasers.

So not quite the glass cannon your trying to imply.


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## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

Yep. Let me look for it. 

It was a screen capture from his formsprings q and a.

edit: here:


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## Gone (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Nah just the full power of his gem.



Well I mean he was channeling the full power alloted him by Cyttorak as the Avatar of Destruction. Still puts him well above an angry Hulk (as the comment I was responding to stated) and *WAAAAAAY* the fuck ahead of Skywalker...


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Yep. Let me look for it.
> 
> It was a screen capture from his formsprings q and a.



Not that I care about this topic, but I'd rather see a Formspring link.

Also, what do you think of Brevoort's Formspring answering as relating to Vs. debating?


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## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

He answered it months and months ago. Probably way back in the summer.

I don't know how long I'd have to dig through it find that answer again.

I screencapped that answer personally btw.


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## Xelloss (Jan 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Still good enough to whoop Negima and ToAru's collective asses, Xelloss. And precognition and force barriers/shields can let him walk on fucking lava and through megaton+ turbolasers.
> 
> So not quite the glass cannon your trying to imply.



Nah I know he is strong, and that ... thing also just find funny both are beaten by lightsabers at the end of the day.

And if you are tyring to bite me with negima you got the wrong person to bite, same with toaru  but nice try, I recomend something more... toasty.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jan 6, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Well I mean he was channeling the full power alloted him by Cyttorak as the Avatar of Destruction. Still puts him well above an angry Hulk (as the comment I was responding to stated) and *WAAAAAAY* the fuck ahead of Skywalker...



regular juggs was stalemating wwh


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

When was Luke Skywalker killed by a lightsaber? He tanked a psychic attack from an entire race of beings in a gesalt hive-mind backed by several Force-Users that goes well beyond planetary mind-fucking.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Yep. Let me look for it.
> 
> It was a screen capture from his formsprings q and a.
> 
> edit: here:



Unless what he's saying is backed up by the comics themselves, I wouldn't use a vague Formspring answer that ends with "depending on the circumstances" as hard evidence especially when Brevoort has also said in his account that what he says there isn't canon as opposed to the books themselves. There's also the way he regards Vs. communities to begin with.


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## Xelloss (Jan 6, 2012)

I was refering to Abeloth, or was it defeat I don't remember but Luke basically beat her with a lightsaber.


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## Gone (Jan 6, 2012)

projectcapsule said:


> regular juggs was stalemating wwh



Wasnt regular Juggs beating WWH, with Hulk only winning by BFR? I dont have the issue on hand, but I remember Juggs landed something like 3 hits, compared to only a single good blow the Hulk got him with. Im pretty sure he even floored him with a single punch. Then Juggy was still pushing the Hulk back when they were grappling each other.

Although it dosnt really matter since we are talking about Trion Juggernaut which is an entirley different animal.


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## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

Charcan said:


> Unless what he's saying is backed up by the comics themselves, I wouldn't use a vague Formspring answer that ends with "depending on the circumstances" as hard evidence especially when Brevoort has also said in his account that what he says there isn't canon as opposed to the books themselves. There's also the way he regards Vs. communities to begin with.



Noted, but when its a character as sparsely seen and as vague as Cyttorak, editor words are about as good for evidence as anything else. Like I said, and I reiterate, 'according to tom brevoort'. 

It's not something that can be easily written off however, when you simply consider even Juggernaut's entire history. Seeing as his gem alone has enough power to have universal level warping, as seen when D'Spayre was siphoning off the gem's power from him.


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## Matta Clatta (Jan 6, 2012)

Luke is a glass canon though
His body is about as strong as any other humans.
Juggernaut could thunderclap and he'd get killed.

I remember in the Iron Man thread no one could respond to the claims that Tony could just win by firing off a blast nuking the area.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> I was refering to Abeloth, or was it defeat I don't remember but Luke basically beat her with a lightsaber.



He never killed her. She even mentions she has more bodies then he can physically kill and had lava on her back the second time, had her throat split open by a lightsaber, and several other limbs locked off while Luke is force-punching her harder then an explosion in terms of physical force and she was crushing his throat no problem with the stump of one of her arm's.



Matta Clatta said:


> Luke is a glass canon though
> His body is about as strong as any other humans.
> Juggernaut could thunderclap and he'd get killed.
> 
> I remember in the Iron Man thread no one could respond to the claims that Tony could just win by firing off a blast nuking the area.



Please stop talking like you know anything.


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## Xelloss (Jan 6, 2012)

Probably, I did read a bring resume on it, so maybe it wasn't complete.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

You brought a resume on Abeloth? Anyway the first fight between Luke and Abeloth was more then a year ago and only in the fourth book of the Fate of the Jedi novel series. We're just to book 8 with her mind-raping people through their damn dreams and physically moving through them with her tentacle rape harder then Taiga in a Japanese hentai game.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Noted, but when its a character as sparsely seen and as vague as Cyttorak, editor words are about as good for evidence as anything else.



Then I'd just note him as being vague and barely seen, because I don't like the idea of penalizing characters with actual feat histories just because of a Formspring answer that starts with "same rules don't really apply" and ends with "depending on the circumstances" which for Brevoort means, if you've been following his account, whatever the writers and the editors, including himself, feel like making up that day.

Brevoort regards the approach of Vs. communities as being limiting, this is what he's posted in that Formspring.

I don't have a problem with noting what he says as a way to back up/confirm what is already coming across in the comics proper, but that answer doesn't sit well with that.



> Seeing as his gem alone has enough power to have universal level warping, as seen D'Spayre was siphoning off the gem's power from him.



Actually post those showings then if you feel like keep advancing this point, instead of relying on 1) powerscaling based on 2) a Formspring answer that is 3) vague to boot.

Trilogy of dubious.


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## Xelloss (Jan 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> You brought a resume on Abeloth?



Read a resume of the novel around, it was due a debate about luke and abeloth which supposed end on luke stabing her on the head with a lightsaber if I recall.

Feel free to correct me.


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## Fish127 (Jan 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Please stop talking like you know anything.



I think its funny how butthurt you get every time somone tries to say that Luke Skywalker isnt some 'all powerful embodimentof the force that would make TOAA shat himself'. I mean are you really trying to say that Luke has anything he can do against Trion Juggernaut?


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## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

Charcan said:


> Actually post those showings then if you feel like keep advancing this point, instead of relying on 1) powerscaling based on 2) a Formspring answer that is 3) vague to boot.
> 
> Trilogy of dubious.



I would ask you to kindly drop the inkling of a condescending tone you are starting to uptake at this point of the post.

I only strolled in here to casually mention outlines of Juggernaut and Cyttorak's power level, in which Brevoort's opinion was simply one piece. I have no real interest in the thread.

And sure. Very well. D'Spayre after siphoning off what he could of Juggernaut's powers, mentions the very 'fabric of the universe' is his to control;


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> I would ask you to kindly drop the inkling of a condescending tone you are starting to uptake at this point of the post.
> 
> I only strolled in here to casually mention outlines of Juggernaut and Cyttorak's power level, in which Brevoort's opinion was simply one piece. I have no real interest in the thread.



And I only "strolled" in here to note why I found your approach to it problematic in that regard, since I don't care much about this thread (which I see is likely to be in need of a clean-up if going on like this) either.

If others deem your evidence satisfactory, it's between you and them.


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## Gone (Jan 6, 2012)

Charcan said:


> If others deem your evidence satisfactory, it's between you and them.



Well the thing is that Cyttorak himself almost never gets any face time, the little we actualy see of him is almost always a disembodied voice talking to Caine. So in this case author notes are the best we can come by, and Im not sure why you wouldnt consider it canon even if they werent...


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## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

Very well.

That's your opinion.

I've backed up my stance on why it is not 'problematic' nor contradictory when taking the statement in among the rest of the characters' history.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Very well.
> 
> That's your opinion.
> 
> I've backed up my stance on why it is not 'problematic' nor contradictory when taking the statement in among the rest of the characters' history.



Nothing about that showing you posted is anywhere near the ballpark of the LT though. Which was part of your original take on it.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> So in this case author notes are the best we can come by



Tom Brevoort isn't an author (by his admission in that Formspring he's not very good at it), he's an editor, and only after a certain point, and not for all Marvel titles. Like Ben said, it's his opinion, which might or might not come into consideration the next time he edits the comic of some writer that is featuring those beings in it.



> and Im not sure why you wouldnt consider it canon



If you mean his Formspring answer, it's because Brevoort himself said none of those answers are (compared to the published comics).


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## Matta Clatta (Jan 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Please stop talking like you know anything.


Is this you trying to appeal to me again?
Luke is a glass canon unless you want to make some more excuses about why he needs to deflect blaster fire instead of just walking through it with his obvious superhuman durability.

So yeah like I was saying a thunderclap would end him.


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## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

Charcan said:


> Nothing about that showing you posted is anywhere near the ballpark of the LT though. Which was part of your original take on it.



Rather, I simply neglected to mention more specifics.

LT helped Strange fight off an extradimensional being before, which Cyttorak is, on at least one occasion.

And to top that off, LT when he was fighting Dr. Strange, was invoking magic from Raggador. One of the 'members' of the Octessence, of which Cyttorak is the most famed and powerful.

Besides, the showing I posted is for Juggernaut's gem alone. 616 Juggernaut is not the only Juggernaut that is powered by the one and only Cyttorak that is in existence either.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> LT helped Strange fight off an extradimensional being before, which Cyttorak is, on at least one occasion.



Who are you talking about by the way, and in what comics did the fight occur.

Because simply not being from Strange's "dimension" (if that's what you mean) doesn't mean whoever it is was in the LT's ballpark.

Unless you can offer the LT trying and struggling to fight it off on his own and then needing Strange's help to finish the job (which would just be bizarre).



> And to top that off, LT when he was fighting Dr. Strange, was invoking magic from Raggador. One of the 'members' of the Octessence, of which Cyttorak is the most famed and powerful.



The whole idea of the LT, the arbiter of reality, needing fancy invoking from separate entities to fight Dr. Strange (who can't challenge him at all) makes me think he was doing it just for show. The LT could drag Odin into Pokemon duty if he felt like.

If that was from the Silver Age, I'd be doubly suspicious, since Marvel was young back then and some takes didn't survive to the modern day.


----------



## Es (Jan 6, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> Is this you trying to appeal to me again?
> Luke is a glass canon unless you want to make some more excuses about why he needs to deflect blaster fire instead of just walking through it with his obvious superhuman durability.
> 
> So yeah like I was saying a thunderclap would end him.



Please stop posting, your rationalization for your claim is ridiculous as fuck


----------



## EpicBroFist (Jan 6, 2012)

Es said:


> Please stop posting, your rationalization for your claim is ridiculous as fuck



Actually from what i gather Luke has peak human durability, Although this is without Force augmentation. With force augmentation his "durability" is much higher.


----------



## Es (Jan 6, 2012)

EpicBroFist said:


> Actually from what i gather Luke has peak human durability, Although this is without Force augmentation. With force augmentation his "durability" is much higher.



I know about that, I'm pointing out it's still dumb that he's calling him a glass cannon.

On topic I'm not completely sure if he could beat Juggs in his strongest incarnations


----------



## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

The character's name was Nebulos. It was in a Dr. Strange book. I'll look for scans. However, LT fought him and it was not an easy fight. He had to destroy his staff before the fight could eventually be won. 

Classic Dr. Strange could do anything. And in that fight, he got LT's respect. He broke out of LT's spells, and yet everytime he's been trapped by Cyttorak's magic, he's been helpless. The thing about Cyttorak, is that he's a character existing outside the multiverse. Thus beyond LT's jurisdiction anyway. Lots of people invoke Cyttorak (or other members of the Octaccense, for their power.) Dr. Strange for one invokes Cyttorak all the time. LT invoked Raggador against Strange (Strange invokes Raggador from time to time as well), The Ancient One who has fought with Eternity to an apparent standstill also invokes Cyttorak, Dorammau invokes Cyttorak, even Zom who was mentioned before has invoked Cyttorak. There is an entire multiverse full of Juggernauts, and only one Cyttorak empowering them all. 

It was Silver Age stuff yes, but Marvel had been around for decades by then already. And its from the Silver Age that we get feats like Thor throwing the Midgard Serpent. Stuff that is still referenced in modern times today. Marvel never retconned their decades of history into seperate eras the way DC has done so.


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## Matta Clatta (Jan 6, 2012)

Wait are you talking about the zomling that the LT defeated? Well yeah back then Zom wasn't fully manifested when that fight happened. It was very early and I think that was the first appearance of the LT anyway.


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## Gone (Jan 6, 2012)

Es said:


> I know about that, I'm pointing out it's still dumb that he's calling him a glass cannon



No he was saying that deflecting blaster bolts wasnt a durability feat, and that they would hurt him if he was hit by one, and that he wouldnt be able to deflect a shockwave from Juggs. It was just poorly worded.


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## EpicBroFist (Jan 6, 2012)

Es said:


> I know about that, I'm pointing out it's still dumb that he's calling him a glass cannon based on the fact he deflects blaster bolts



Well without Force augmentation he is a glass cannon because he has multi city to planetary DC with only peak human durability.

On topic, I see no chance for Luke to win this against Trion Jugs


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## Matta Clatta (Jan 6, 2012)

EpicBroFist said:


> Actually from what i gather Luke has peak human durability, Although this is without Force augmentation. With force augmentation his "durability" is much higher.



His durability stops at peak human.
Even while the force is amping his body to allow him to do superhuman acts like jumping really high and such, He still needs to deflect blaster fire because that can still hurt him.
If the force ever amplified his durability to the point that he can walk through sustained blaster fire we haven't seen it.

Which brings us to the point about him being a glass canon. He can dish it out but he can't take it for shit


----------



## CrimsonAvatar (Jan 6, 2012)

When did this become a Luke Skywalker Versus  Cyttorak thread?




Narcissus said:


> Force lightning isn't going to weaken him.
> 
> At his normal levels, Juggernaut's forcefield has withstood Thor's godblast. The second Luke tries Juggernaut will walk through it and and kill  him.



No offense here but your mistaken Force "Light" and Force Lightning are to completely seperate abilities Force Light is an ability given to Luke by the pure power of Ashla or the will of the Light Side of the Force it weakens those who are evil and can even purge contain or destroy said evil not only that it increases Lukes around Vast abilities beyind their limits and has been said looks already easily handle two blackholes with his normal force abilities, it can also be used to Sever bonds between entities Cyttorak and juggernaught for example.




Matta Clatta said:


> So yeah like I was saying a thunderclap would end him.



Not really Force Barriers have been shown to be able to absorb Vast ammounts of energy and Force Barriers are reflexive so their automaticly put up not tomention Luke could use Force Immersion to make himself undetectable by any means Organic or otherwise.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> The character's name was Nebulos. It was in a Dr. Strange book. I'll look for scans.Classic Dr. Strange could do anything.



Actually what I was curious about was if you could reference your claims with issue numbers.

As I said I don't care, but if these fabled showings all happen in comics that don't suck, I might end up reading them anyway and I like to be forewarned. 



> It was Silver Age stuff yes, but Marvel had been around for decades by then already.



The decades before Stan Lee and Jack Kirby launched the Fantastic Four are legendary when it comes to how little they're referenced in modern titles (other than odd stuff like Venus being brought back for short-lived stints and writing that has little or nothing to do with Golden Age tales). Heck Captain America's Golden Age adventures have been retconned/expanded/updated by at least a couple post-60s runs.

Look at Brubaker's Red Skull and compare it to the cackling, long-fingered thing he was in the Golden Age.



> And its from the Silver Age that we get feats like Thor throwing the Midgard Serpent.



And it's from that same era where Thor emits anti-matter from his hammer which he never did again and was just a cop out way of wrapping up that single issue's problem. The craziest the showings from that era, the more you should ask yourself "Is this kind of power or ability referenced again in the four decades that follow?"

Because writers back then committed mistakes or were treading water, they could be the first to acknowledge them in answers to letters, and just to give a feel of what people in the biz today can think about it, Brevoort said Stan Lee made a mistake when showing Loki lifting Thor's hammer (this led to a shitstorm in that account about Brevoort "spitting in Lee's face", but Lee sent him Christmas hugs all the same because really, who cares).


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

Are we talking about Cytorak's power level?


Nice


you people had only to ask


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

He's  a peer to the skyfather level being Mephisto


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## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

He first appeared in Strange Tales #161, Charcan

edit: He did not fight anyone, nor was there any reference to him being a peer to Mephisto. That was in one of the Journey Into Mystery titles from a few months back.


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

Demons rank themselves according to power and anyone that exceeds their station gets torn to pieces by everyone else
He stands at the same distance as mephisto from the chair
Conclusion?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

CrimsonAvatar said:


> When did this become a Luke Skywalker Versus  Cyttorak thread?



It never did. This started off from general claims about Cyttorak's power. I don't think it's an unhealthy attitude to challenge claims that involve the Living Tribunal, given how that periphery of power can beat like 99% of fictions and Cyttorak isn't exactly appearance friendly.

It's admittedly off-topic so I have no problem with dropping it.



Banhammer said:


> He's  a peer to the skyfather level being Mephisto



Cool, comics.



BenTennyson said:


> He first appeared in Strange Tales #161, Charcan



A little after the Ditko run, got it.


----------



## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

Maybe that will be the current take on him now. That he's some skyfather level 'demon'. As opposed to a monarch god of his own principality.

But it wasn't the case as far as say, the Infinity Gauntlet stuff. Where he demonstrated no concern over what would be happening to the multiverse when Strange was trying to reason with him.

Cyttorak was shown to be casually superior to Classic Sorcery Supreme Dr. Strange, several times before. Who is far, far, far, FAR above Mephisto.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 6, 2012)

BenTennyson said:


> Cyttorak was shown to be casually superior to Classic Dr. Strange. Who is far, far, far, FAR above Mephisto.



Then again I doubt Mephisto had a lot of showings compared to Strange's back then, since one of the most brought up feats for him (standing up to Galactus in Judgment) happened until the 80s.


----------



## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

Cyttorak first appeared in the early 90s iirc. but he was mentioned as far back as the 60s.


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## Narcissus (Jan 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> As in Luke casts an external illusion over himself or something rather or vs  then making them think of it or broadcasting the illusion telepathically into their minds.


I don't believe Juggernaut has encountered external illusions.





> Abeloth can teleport herself into different places and Luke can use Fold-Space just as well as she can. Plus the fact that his telepathic senses have gone into hyperspace at his earliest (Shadows of Mindor takes place just six months after Return of the Jedi) had him mind-fucking a guy while in hyperspace.
> 
> If that's not accepted, then he just Fold-Space Juggs very far away since its a neutral universe setting. Even Cain will get tired of that I assume.


Different places doesn't really explain whether or not they can directly teleport something into hyperspace though.

As for tiring Juggernaut by using fold-space to teleport him away, that wouldn't work. Juggernaut does not get tired. Unless you mean that you think he'll eventually give up on trying to get to Luke, which is also doubtful as bloodlust is on by default.





> Precognition would tell Luke that yeah, that he would need his shields up constantly and avoid getting hit. Though I'm wondering if Luke's allowed to manifest himself as Force Spirit since he had no problem doing that 200 years into the future after his time ended.


Will Luke's shields will be enough to stop Juggernaut?

What would manifesting as a force spirit allow him to do?





CrimsonAvatar said:


> No offense here but your mistaken Force "Light" and Force Lightning are to completely seperate abilities Force Light is an ability given to Luke by the pure power of Ashla or the will of the Light Side of the Force it weakens those who are evil and can even purge contain or destroy said evil not only that it increases Lukes around Vast abilities beyind their limits and has been said looks already easily handle two blackholes with his normal force abilities, it can also be used to Sever bonds between entities Cyttorak and juggernaught for example.


If you're asserting that Force Light can either "purge, contain, or destroy" the power of Cyttorak's gem, then you're going to need some good evidence to support it. 

Furthermore, Thor was able to use Mjolnir to temporarily sever some of the gem's power from Juggernaut. He *STILL* could not put the Juggernaut down even before his powers returned to him. And that is at his normal levels.

You also are not addressing the situation of Cain going on the offensive.

--

As for the Cyttorak discussion, he is constantly implied to be an extremely powerful being, and what we at least know is that he is on the cosmic scale. Especially when you consider that Dormammu, a top tier skyfather, invokes Cyttorak.

However, the comic issue that the scan Banhammer posted comes from confirms that he is not on par with the LT. Mephisto comments that ALL who go to the Infinite Embassy, demons and gods, agree to go in peace, or have their "existence privileges" revoked by the LT.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jan 6, 2012)

didn't trion juggs punked cytorrak in his own dimension?


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## BenTennyson (Jan 6, 2012)

projectcapsule said:


> didn't trion juggs punked cytorrak in his own dimension?



Nope.

Cain had a sort of mental struggle, 'battle of wills' with Cyttorak before. Pretty sure that was during the 8th day saga.

There was another time when Cain tried to attack Cyttorak directly in his realm, it was in the story where Cyttorak trapped Galactus, his herald Nova (Frankie raye), and Dr. Strange in the Crimson Cosmos. When Cain attacked him, all he ended up attacking was some human looking avatar of Cyttorak, and then Cyttorak rendered him powerless for a little while for trying to bite the hand that feeds him. Then he let him and Dr. Strange and co go.


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

Battle Field removal is not a viable tactic against juggernaut, it is within his abilities to universally teleport by using the crimson dimension.


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## Gone (Jan 6, 2012)

Ugh so much Star Wars wank...

Ok first of all force light only severs connections and contains things powered by/using the dark side of the force, not general evil. So the idea that it would work on Cyttoraks gem is absurd. It reminds me of something very retarded that I tried to argue when I first joined up involving Alucards souls and Guts's brand of sacrifice... (Charcan probably knows what I'm talking about). 

Besides Thors hammer couldn't completely sever Juggernauts power from the gem, so I doubt Luke has enough power to himself even if force light worked that way (which it dosnt).


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

I just want to point out that when Angrir possessed Cain it was explicitly stated that he could have fought him off if he had wished too by using the power of Cytorakk.
Since the Worthy take advantage of fear on people's hearts that could probably transfer some


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

EpicBroFist said:


> Well without Force augmentation he is a glass cannon because he has multi city to planetary DC with only peak human durability.
> 
> On topic, I see no chance for Luke to win this against Trion Jugs



Wrong. A glass cannon is a term that refers to someone whose durability isn't the same as their destructive capacity. Your argument is worthless, I can say Goku is a fucking glass cannon because without Ki his durability is shit.

Yeah Luke is worthless without the Force, congratulations on figuring that out. Same with the Silver Surfer without the Power Cosmic. He walks on lava, he tanked psychic entropy, he's unscathingly repulsed mental attacks that shit on and far above planetary scale mindrape, he's created barriers to tank city level Force attacks. You are reaching here. 

Anyway, people like Matta Clatta and Ryjacork have absolutely no authority or knowledge when it comes to Star Wars; so people should really not heed them. Especially the former when he's constantly shot down his own "claims" with regards to a bunch of fictions like JJBA, Star Wars, Warhammer 40,000, etc...The same style of trolling that SasuOna and Spartan1337 tried in the past year or two of the OBD.


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

Actually, glass cannon is usually reserved for people whose flash far outweighs it's tank.

It's basically just semantics to what you said really.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> I don't believe Juggernaut has encountered external illusions.



So he can at least confuse and disorient him with it at best then.



> Different places doesn't really explain whether or not they can directly teleport something into hyperspace though.



Well the people who taught Luke and his nephew Fold-Space use it to travel with their ships into hyperspace. And this is Luke pre-Codex power up which caused his psychic aura to hurt the Lost Tribe of the Sith on the other end of the galaxy proper. 



> As for tiring Juggernaut by using fold-space to teleport him away, that wouldn't work. Juggernaut does not get tired. Unless you mean that you think he'll eventually give up on trying to get to Luke, which is also doubtful as bloodlust is on by default.



I see.



> Will Luke's shields will be enough to stop Juggernaut?



Luke's telekinesis showing allows him to destroy large warships (the kinds that put out teraton+ range firepower as well as take it), throw things at relativistic velocities, and tank Force energy attacks and blasts from a being who can casually melt entire cities down with a Force Wave. Including like I mentioned earlier I think of causing people on the outskirts of said blast to implode and those in its vicinity to vaporize. Plus he can absorb energy like Anakin/Vader can, to the point of also generating passive Force shields to tank turbolaser blasts.

What is the normal level of strength shown by Trion Juggs?



> What would manifesting as a force spirit allow him to do?



He would just be incorporeal but I doubt it makes much a difference if Trion Juggs can punch out ghosts or something.



> If you're asserting that Force Light can either "purge, contain, or destroy" the power of Cyttorak's gem, then you're going to need some good evidence to support it.



Its best showing with Luke is him getting power amped to match physical strength with someone who was 12x stronger then him physically. It also gives him a faint electrically golden aura and his cells start popping with the overloading of Force energy. I think he's mistaking that with Force Holocaust. Which I doubt he could.



> Furthermore, Thor was able to use Mjolnir to temporarily sever some of the gem's power from Juggernaut. He *STILL* could not put the Juggernaut down even before his powers returned to him. And that is at his normal levels.



Doesn't Thor normally jobber to normal Juggernaught?


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## Gone (Jan 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Anyway, people like Matta Clatta and Ryjacork have absolutely no authority or knowledge when it comes to Star Wars; so people should really not heed them. Especially the former when he's constantly shot down his own "claims" with regards to a bunch of fictions like JJBA, Star Wars, Warhammer 40,000, etc...The same style of trolling that SasuOna and Spartan1337 tried in the past year or two of the OBD.



So they should heed you and your endless Star Wars worship? Don't talk shit about my posts unless your actualy going to refute what I say, you wank Star Wars more than anybody I have ever encountered on this site, saying Luke spam teleports Juggs away untill he "gets tired"? Juggernaut stomps this and Trion Juggernaut stomps this with ridiculas ease, and your Skywalker wank does not change that. And stop trying to imply that tanking psychic attacks has anything to do with his physical durability.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

I can't see when people on ignore post at me.


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

> So he can at least confuse and disorient him with it at best then.


Naturally

His shields will likely not stop the juggernaut though, but telekinetically hurling the ground he's standing onto outter space would buy him time


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

Well I like how its the absolute strongest version of the Juggernaut that has to be used against Luke.


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

He doesn't have a regular power level.
The way the Juggernaut's powers work is that he is unstoppable. what this means is, whatever momentum oposes his, unless he wills it otherwise, Juggernaut's momentum will always be greater

So if you face him with minor force, Jugg's maximum force will be minor, but if you face him with anything up to the limits of his powers, Juggs force will always match it

For this, you need more than Thor level beings. More than Heralds. The sentry would be nice but not permanent


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2012)

Of course, there are more conventional ways to take out juggernaut
It won't work for Collossus Juggernaut, but cain Juggernaut is another matter
Luke can probably lightsaber his helmet off and then mindfuck the shit out of him


----------



## EpicBroFist (Jan 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Wrong. A glass cannon is a term that refers to someone whose durability isn't the same as their destructive capacity. Your argument is worthless, I can say Goku is a fucking glass cannon because without Ki his durability is shit.
> 
> Yeah Luke is worthless without the Force, congratulations on figuring that out. Same with the Silver Surfer without the Power Cosmic. He walks on lava, he tanked psychic entropy, he's unscathingly repulsed mental attacks that shit on and far above planetary scale mindrape, he's created barriers to tank city level Force attacks. You are reaching here.
> 
> Anyway, people like Matta Clatta and Ryjacork have absolutely no authority or knowledge when it comes to Star Wars; so people should really not heed them. Especially the former when he's constantly shot down his own "claims" with regards to a bunch of fictions like JJBA, Star Wars, Warhammer 40,000, etc...The same style of trolling that SasuOna and Spartan1337 tried in the past year or two of the OBD.





EpicBroFist said:


> Actually from what i gather Luke has peak human durability, Although this is without Force augmentation. With force augmentation his "durability" is much higher.



Dude I acknowledged that in the quote above, I thought that Metta Clatta was saying that Luke was a Glass Canon without force augmentation thats why I posted that statement that you quoted me on.


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## Matta Clatta (Jan 6, 2012)

Luke has peak human durability and is a glass cannon
I don't care what powers he has or how powerful his mind is to allow him to survive psychic assaults. Were talking physical durability at this point 

The Silver Surfer doesn't need to use the power cosmic to tank a blow from Thor.
Goku doesn't need to use ki to survive getting punched by Picollo


The whole force barrier hyperbole you dropped is even more ridiculous because hes not walking round erecting city level barriers without dropping into serious meditation.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2012)

So, again: thanks for confirming you have no idea what your talking about. Gohan having to power up to avoid being harmed by rocks thrown by Goten at him, and so forth says your wrong. Stop trying to argue Star Wars to me, your knowledge is spotty and wrong to begin with. And that's being nice.


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## Narcissus (Jan 7, 2012)

Fang said:


> So he can at least confuse and disorient him with it at best then.


At the very least, yes, it does seem to be a likely option as I haven't seen Cain deal with this.


> Well the people who taught Luke and his nephew Fold-Space use it to travel with their ships into hyperspace. And this is Luke pre-Codex power up which caused his psychic aura to hurt the Lost Tribe of the Sith on the other end of the galaxy proper.


Then I suppose this is a possible method, provided the fight is set in the SWverse. Though it seems to be a bit of a stretch. 


> Luke's telekinesis showing allows him to destroy large warships (the kinds that put out teraton+ range firepower as well as take it), throw things at relativistic velocities, and tank Force energy attacks and blasts from a being who can casually melt entire cities down with a Force Wave. Including like I mentioned earlier I think of causing people on the outskirts of said blast to implode and those in its vicinity to vaporize. Plus he can absorb energy like Anakin/Vader can, to the point of also generating passive Force shields to tank turbolaser blasts.


Most of these feats are actually similar to things Juggernaut has either encountered, or done himself. The destructive power of Luke's telekinesis won't harm Juggernaut. Juggernaut at regular levels withstood Thor's godblast. The godblast actually managed to damage Exitar's armor (Exitar is a Celestial).

Juggernaut has also shown that he can throw things with enough force to reach escape velocity.

He's been reduced to a skeleton and still was continued fighting as if nothing happened.

Luke's feats are very impressive. I'm just don't think they're enough to either harm nor defend from an attack from Juggernaut.


> What is the normal level of strength shown by Trion Juggs?


His best feat is the already mentioned punching through dimensions, which is considered the most impressive physical feat by a non-cosmic entity in Marvel.


> He would just be incorporeal but I doubt it makes much a difference if Trion Juggs can punch out ghosts or something.




Admittedly, I don't know the full context here, but considering that he was ripping through space-time as Trion, and that trion is his most powerful incarnation, I think it's arguable.


> Its best showing with Luke is him getting power amped to match physical strength with someone who was 12x stronger then him physically. It also gives him a faint electrically golden aura and his cells start popping with the overloading of Force energy. I think he's mistaking that with Force Holocaust. Which I doubt he could.


Ah, I see. Thank-you for clearing that up.


> Doesn't Thor normally jobber to normal Juggernaught?


No. Juggernaut is consistently show to be on par with Thor, with Thor being pushed to great limits when they fight. Thor had to use his hammer to BFR Juggernaut to defeat him (the reason why fold-space would be much more effective against Cain while at his normal level), and another occasion when Juggernaut walks over him.





Banhammer said:


> Luke can probably lightsaber his helmet off and then mindfuck the shit out of him


To Juggernaut at his normal level, maybe. Not against Trion though.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 7, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> No. Juggernaut is consistently show to be on par with Thor, with Thor being pushed to great limits when they fight. Thor had to use his hammer to BFR Juggernaut to defeat him (the reason why fold-space would be much more effective against Cain while at his normal level), and *another occasion when Juggernaut walks over him*.To Juggernaut at his normal level, maybe. Not against Trion though.



Haha yeah:



If you are unsure about Thor's appearance, that's Masterson era Thor aka the one that punched Thanos in the face during Infinity Gauntlet.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jan 9, 2012)

> Demons rank themselves according to power and anyone that exceeds their station gets torn to pieces by everyone else
> He stands at the same distance as mephisto from the chair
> Conclusion?



What's confusing is Mephisto, Thog, and Dormammu standing near the throne

While Shuma Gorath is several dozen paces behind them.

And we know Shuma could own all three of them in his sleep.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 9, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> *Admittedly, I don't know the full context here*, but considering that he was ripping through space-time as Trion, and that trion is his most powerful incarnation, I think it's arguable.



Oh yeah that looks like Romita Jr. art so if I had to venture a guess that's from an 80s issue of Uncanny X-Men.


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## Lucifeller (Jan 9, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> What's confusing is Mephisto, Thog, and Dormammu standing near the throne
> 
> While Shuma Gorath is several dozen paces behind them.
> 
> And we know Shuma could own all three of them in his sleep.



To be fair, Shuma Gorath tends to lose a lot of power whenever he's outside his own domain, if memory serves. That may be why - the other three don't lose any of their power when crossing dimensions.

The depowering is, admittedly, the only reason Shuma Gorath hasn't tentacleraped the Marvelverse, mind you. As far as raw power goes, he's easily superior.


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## Estrecca (Jan 9, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> Admittedly, I don't know the full context here, but considering that he was ripping through space-time as Trion, and that trion is his most powerful incarnation, I think it's arguable.



If somebody has used this to argue that Juggernaut can harm intangibles/astrals, he was being a dishonest little _shit_. I recognize the scan and has nothing to do with the Trion Juggernaut.

It is from a Spiderman story, part of the Eighth Day storyline, and Juggernaut wasn't affecting Xavier at all. Rather, Bedlam (telepathic human avatar of the Ikonn entity) was teleporting Xavier to the basement of the Daily Buggle, where Juggernaut and his buddies had set up shop.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 9, 2012)

Is _it_ Romita Jr. though? That man seems to have drawn most everybody in Marvel by now.


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## Estrecca (Jan 9, 2012)

Charcan said:


> Is _it_ Romita Jr. though? That man seems to have drawn most everybody in Marvel by now.



Yes.

This is the cover of the relevant issue.


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## Narcissus (Jan 9, 2012)

Estrecca said:


> If somebody has used this to argue that Juggernaut can harm intangibles/astrals, he was being a dishonest little _shit_. I recognize the scan and has nothing to do with the Trion Juggernaut.
> 
> It is from a Spiderman story, part of the Eighth Day storyline, and Juggernaut wasn't affecting Xavier at all. Rather, Bedlam (telepathic human avatar of the Ikonn entity) was teleporting Xavier to the basement of the Daily Buggle, where Juggernaut and his buddies had set up shop.



Ah. Yeah, I took it with a grain of salt since it was cropped, hence my comment about not knowing the context.

Thank for clearing that up.


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## Lucifeller (Jan 9, 2012)

By the way, Juggernaut was also Captain Universe for a short time in a Spiderman story. Just throwing that out.


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## Fang (Jan 9, 2012)

No one really cares. Anyway even if the scan contradicts the claim or suggestion of it, since Trion Juggs can punch through dimensional walls, he can probably still punch out or at least harm an incorporeal Luke.

So yeah best bet is for Luke to dip out.


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## Banhammer (Jan 9, 2012)

Regular luke can launch juggernaut into space every once in a while, while he uses his telepathy to find someone in the planet who knows how to go to Cytorakk and bargain for his power


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## Gone (Jan 9, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Regular luke can launch juggernaut into space every once in a while, while he uses his telepathy to find someone in the planet who knows how to go to Cytorakk and bargain for his power



Cant Juggs teleport through the Crimson Cosmos? I know he did it in WWH (well Cyttorak did it for him), idk if its an ability he has been shown to use before.


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## Estrecca (Jan 9, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Cant Juggs teleport through the Crimson Cosmos? I know he did it in WWH (well Cyttorak did it for him), idk if its an ability he has been shown to use before.



He can ask Cyttorak to take him to wherever he wants to go, but that only works if Cyttorak is in a good mood or wants Juggernaut to do something for him.

This rarely happens and shouldn't be considered a valid tactic in this match.


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## Banhammer (Jan 9, 2012)

Yeah, juggernaut can reliably travel through the crimson dimension and return to earth, it's far from an instant teleport
He can return by his own power but it takes time, which luke can easily buy


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## Gone (Jan 9, 2012)

Could Trion Juggs break the planet they are on? I know Marvel stated that WWH would have destroyed the planet is he hadnt stopped himself, and Trion should be much stronger than he was.

If he can than I say Juggy just breaks apart the planet and Luke dies in space.


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## Cygnus45 (Jan 9, 2012)

> To be fair, Shuma Gorath tends to lose a lot of power whenever he's outside his own domain, if memory serves. That may be why - the other three don't lose any of their power when crossing dimensions



That would explain it if the hell-lords didn't _also_ lose power outside their domain. Even heralds can give them trouble when they're on earth.

This is speculation, and I hope I'm wrong, but Marvel may have nerfed the cosmic kraken. With all those dark figures swarming around the throne, it's not like they needed to put such an obscure unknown character in the spotlight.



> Could Trion Juggs break the planet they are on? I know Marvel stated that WWH would have destroyed the planet is he hadnt stopped himself, and Trion should be much stronger than he was.
> 
> If he can than I say Juggy just breaks apart the planet and Luke dies in space.



Regular Juggs could effortlessly crush a planet, so his strongest incarnation could do it in his sleep.

I doubt leaving Luke in space would instantly kill him given all the broken ass EU feats I've heard. He could probably protect himself with the force for a few moments long enough to teleport or something.


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## Gone (Jan 9, 2012)

Wouldn't teleporting away count as running away or forfeiting?


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## Banhammer (Jan 10, 2012)

Not really.
Teleporting away buys you time to come up with shit
If there's nothing luke could come up with, then it counts as self BFR


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## Banhammer (Jan 10, 2012)

Cygnus45 said:


> That would explain it if the hell-lords didn't _also_ lose power outside their domain. Even heralds can give them trouble when they're on earth.
> 
> This is speculation, and I hope I'm wrong, but Marvel may have nerfed the cosmic kraken. With all those dark figures swarming around the throne, it's not like they needed to put such an obscure unknown character in the spotlight.



Or maybe it's just a one eyed squid

Seriously, the look isn't so damned specific that only the cthulued one could only  possibly own it. There can be many lovecraftian beasts in all those hell dimensions


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## Narcissus (Jan 10, 2012)

I think it's pretty much established that Juggernaut would win this match, outside of some off-the-wall strategies from Luke.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

Finally, well I am putting this to rest.


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