# Middle-Earth (Lord of the Rings) vs Hyrule (The Legend of Zelda)



## androidmuppet (Aug 12, 2013)

Between the two worlds which one do you think has a good chance of winning.

Note: Yes it can be any version of Hyrule from any Zelda game.


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## PlotHax (Aug 13, 2013)

What version of middle earth are we talking about?

The strength varies depending on the age.


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## androidmuppet (Aug 13, 2013)

PlotHax said:


> What version of middle earth are we talking about?
> 
> The strength varies depending on the age.



First Age of Middle Earth.


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## midgetoverlord (Aug 14, 2013)

LotR stomps imo. First age middle earth means we still have the continent level, non coporeal valar. Also, I assume the Golden Goddesses and Eru are restricted? Anyways only the really high hitters are going to hurt Middle Earth.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 15, 2013)

even not supposing that we have shit like Feanor, Fingolfin, and a still undamaged Melkor, which should be more than enough to destroy even top-tier LoZ characters low-mid diff.
Middle-earth takes this.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 15, 2013)

Eru solos he is omnipotent, even if you include the Goddesses he stomps.


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## midgetoverlord (Aug 15, 2013)

Yeah, LoZ doesn't really have a chance until mid to late second age IMO.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 15, 2013)

The unified Triforce might be able to do something, since apparently is the closest thing to omnipotence there is in Zelda. But it does not win, not with Eru at least.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 15, 2013)

Eru's only universe level last i checked.
but that's more than enough to clear with even if you divided his strength by a billion


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 15, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> Eru is omnipotent


shut your mouth


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 15, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> Eru solos he is omnipotent, even if you include the Goddesses he stomps.





Fluttershy said:


> shut your mouth



Using "omnipotence" as a argument.


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## Red Angel (Aug 15, 2013)

lol, omnipotence is as meaningless as being a 'god'


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## Solrac (Aug 15, 2013)

Deja vu. 

I've debated in another thread like this back in January and I believe I've given my full verdict there. But again debating any verse-on-verse threads based only on knowledge of top-tiers and not anything else, is something anyone can easily do. So I got nothing much more to say for this thread. 



Orochibuto said:


> Eru solos he is omnipotent, even if you include the Goddesses he stomps.



Please explain to me how are the GG's not? Other than "Eru's the Biblical God lol and the GG's are not".    

Supreme Beings vs. Supreme Beings stalemate in most cases.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 15, 2013)

Eru made the entire universe and controlled everything that happened in it afterwards, which is in fact the same universe we live in.
What are Din, Farore, and Nayru going to do that remotely amoutns to that?
Even leaving it out, Morgoth stomps


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 15, 2013)

Pecola said:


> Supreme Beings vs. Supreme Beings stalemate in most cases.


lolnope.jpg


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## Solrac (Aug 15, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> Eru made the entire universe and controlled everything that happened in it afterwards, which is in fact the same universe we live in.
> What are Din, Farore, and Nayru going to do that remotely amoutns to that?
> Even leaving it out, Morgoth stomps



If Eru wins because you argue that "he's the Christian God", then fine so be it, but why does everyone keep using the "it's the same universe as we live in, because Tolkien-kun says so" argument when the same logical could arguably be applied to almost any other verse set in our world? 

And I think you're undercutting the GG's a bit too much here. They created the whole Zelda-verse (along with several dimensions, but I'll most likely get responded with "but those dimensions are smaller than a planet") and the Triforce.

edit - Oh yes, I also forgot, they created the laws of nature, physics, and order. Or something like that.


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## Solrac (Aug 15, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> lolnope.jpg



Logically speaking, yes. 

And I was just playing the Devil's Advocate, cause it seems people here are blatantly ignoring the GG's powers/feats while saying "lol Eru stomps" (regardless of whether or not that is correct).


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 15, 2013)

Pecola said:


> Logically speaking, yes.


Supreme beings powers vary between fictions
thus
lolnope.jpg


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## Solrac (Aug 15, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Supreme beings powers vary between fictions
> thus
> lolnope.jpg



Yes.

But outside of the overall scope/setting of said fictions, most people assume they're equal or think up whatever arguments they can and want to argue that one supreme being is greater than the other.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 15, 2013)

"supreme beings" still go by feats like everyone else


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## Darkmaiar (Aug 15, 2013)

Pecola said:


> If Eru wins because you argue that "he's the Christian God", then fine so be it, but why does everyone keep using the "it's the same universe as we live in, because Tolkien-kun says so" argument when the same logical could arguably be applied to almost any other verse set in our world?



LOGICALLY, I'm pretty sure that it's meant to be a feat. I don't know if that's what AgentAAA intended, but that's how I would use. LOTR is basically Tolkien's interpretation of how our world was created and evolved. Thus, Eru controlling all things that happen up to now is just showing that he has complete control over the fate of everything. Since before the creation of Arda to now.

Besides, what's it matter if another verse has the same conditions. If The One Above All in Marvel has complete control over Marvel, thus earth, and is still be viable in our times; why can't Eru who has complete control over Arda (Earth)? TOAA still could still solo our planet here and now, therefore so could Eru.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 15, 2013)

do we not do that for realistic fiction? I would figure that we would, given it gives a good scaling, but regardless, as far as the game canon goes, the Hylian goddesses existed within a distant nebula, or, the heavens, before they ever deigned to come to hyrule, before it goes into detail purely about them making that one thing. There's nothing saying the goddesses made other parts of the universe, basically, is what I'm saying, and they're stated to have "Made order out of chaos, and created hyrule from it" which leads me to believe that they simply seeded and terraformed the planet rather than actually creating it. Even if they did though - Din, Nayru, and Farore worked together to create it, Eru did all the same stuff on his own.


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## Solrac (Aug 15, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> "supreme beings" still go by feats like everyone else



I am aware of that, thank you very much. 

But sometimes, common sense and logic shouldn't have to be ignored.


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## Darkmaiar (Aug 15, 2013)

Pecola said:


> I am aware of that, thank you very much.
> 
> But sometimes, common sense and logic shouldn't have to be ignored.



Just because the argument is not provided, does not mean that it lacks logic or common sense. Generally it is assumed - although not proven - that Eru is omnipotent. Although it's not the best argument to make, by feats: it's true and thus Eru would provide the win.


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## Regicide (Aug 15, 2013)

What is this argument I'm hearing now of universals being omnipotent?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 15, 2013)

I would like to see a ~universal "omnipotent supreme being" go up some Marvel/DC characters  


there are mutants that could kick his ass


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 15, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> there are mutants that could kick his ass



Franklin Richards?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 15, 2013)

> Franklin Richards?


MJJ

Clyde Wyncham/Marquis

Jean probably now that she IS Phoenix


Legion and Jamie Braddock maybe 


Wanda at her strongest , but I think her strongest (temporary) levels don't come from her mutant powers, but from something else


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## Neruc (Aug 15, 2013)

Regicide said:


> What is this argument I'm hearing now of universals being omnipotent?



What,you dare say that Haruhi is NOT omnipotent? 

Heretic


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## Regicide (Aug 15, 2013)

Neruc said:


> What,you dare say that Haruhi is NOT omnipotent?
> 
> Heretic


You're right, I was foolish to doubt the power of our supreme lord.


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## Solrac (Aug 15, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> LOGICALLY, I'm pretty sure that it's meant to be a feat. I don't know if that's what AgentAAA intended, but that's how I would use. LOTR is basically Tolkien's interpretation of how our world was created and evolved. Thus, Eru controlling all things that happen up to now is just showing that he has complete control over the fate of everything. Since before the creation of Arda to now.
> 
> Besides, what's it matter if another verse has the same conditions. If The One Above All in Marvel has complete control over Marvel, thus earth, and is still be viable in our times; why can't Eru who has complete control over Arda (Earth)? TOAA still could still solo our planet here and now, therefore so could Eru.



I meant that just because a verse takes place in a fictionalized version of the real-world, doesn't automatically mean it's the real-real world or Earth-Prime other than the author trying to state it is. At least not from a real-life point of view. 

TOAA has control over Marvel Earth/Earth-Prime, not the real Earth in real-life (whom is just Stan Lee) where you and I are typing on the computer, other than having similar appearances. Don't confuse the two. No fictional character has control over the real-real world we live in, outside of being stated/implied by the author of their respective verses. But yes any fictional omnipotent can solo our planet alone, but that's irrelevant to this topic. 

I will respond to the rest later.



Darkmaiar said:


> Just because the argument is not provided, does not mean that it lacks logic or common sense. Generally it is assumed - although not proven - that Eru is omnipotent. Although it's not the best argument to make, by feats: it's true and thus Eru would provide the win.



Well my view is that any fictional character that is a supreme being is only truly omnipotent within their verse (unless the author decides otherwise on who  the supreme being is) and/or is accepted as such by the people supporting/defending the verse they're in. 

Anything outside of that, a supreme being being stronger than another supreme being is based on level of creation feats and sometimes opinion (if the fight's close enough at least).

and I could argue that the Golden Goddesses (together at least) are omnipotent/creators too and have somewhat similar feats of creation based on my research of both entities. So unless one uses the "Eru's the real Christian God blahblahblah" argument, they stalemate. Simple as that.

Anyways, I have no interest in debating this thread any further.


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## Darkmaiar (Aug 16, 2013)

Pecola said:


> I meant that just because a verse takes place in a fictionalized version of the real-world, doesn't automatically mean it's the real-real world or Earth-Prime other than the author trying to state it is. At least not from a real-life point of view.
> 
> TOAA has control over Marvel Earth/Earth-Prime, not the real Earth in real-life (whom is just Stan Lee) where you and I are typing on the computer, other than having similar appearances. Don't confuse the two. No fictional character has control over the real-real world we live in, outside of being stated/implied by the author of their respective verses. But yes any fictional omnipotent can solo our planet alone, but that's irrelevant to this topic.
> 
> ...



1. I'll respect you don't want to debate, so I'll make this my last reply.

2. The point isn't wether we would be controlled or not. Sorry for making it seem like that. Middle-Earth = Our Earth, all the things from Tolkien to all real world events is controlled by Eru. Perhaps not directly here, but in an alternate universe. That is an astronomical feat, period.

3. I don't think Eru is the "Christian God", only you directly stated that. Heck, I'm not even religious.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 16, 2013)

Isn't omnipotence a valid argument anymore in OBD? My bad for bringing it up if so.

It has been valid for many years and there was even a rule that if a being in fiction was omnipotent he or she would win automatically and was pointless bringing it up.

I didn't knew that changed.


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## Nevermind (Aug 16, 2013)

What a sorry state the OBD is in.


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## Solrac (Aug 16, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> 1. I'll respect you don't want to debate, so I'll make this my last reply.
> 
> 2. The point isn't wether we would be controlled or not. Sorry for making it seem like that. Middle-Earth = Our Earth, all the things from Tolkien to all real world events is controlled by Eru. Perhaps not directly here, but in an alternate universe. That is an astronomical feat, period.
> 
> 3. I don't think Eru is the "Christian God", only you directly stated that. Heck, I'm not even religious.



Okay fine. I do get what you're saying about #2, but I will take it with a grain of salt. And I think we both have our own views on things, so we can only agree to disagree. I have only been debating Eru vs. Golden Goddesses here, everything outside, I don't have too much knowledge on both verses other than stuff I hear about from other Nintendo or LotR fans, seeing as both series are pretty iconic and popularly used in versus debates. 

It seems the laziest way that anyone can debate a verse-on-verse debate is to have little to no pre-requisite knowledge on both verses, except for the supreme beings/top-tiers they keep hearing about so much. 

As for #3, well it's others that keep stating and thinking that "Eru is lolonehundredpercenttherealChristianGod" everywhere in every thread related to LotR I go to, not only in this forum, but others as well. Same thing goes for any other fictional character claiming to actually be any real religious deity imo. 

And yes thanks for respecting my right to not debate anymore. I'm glad we could be as civil as that and I was nearly anxious that this thread would escalate into another shitstorm just like the last one I've been in January.

So without further ado, I think I should really step out of this thread and let it rest in peace and have the mods lock it.


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 17, 2013)

Pecola said:
			
		

> There's always two routes people can take to answering a match-up like this in general.
> 
> Either whoever supposedly has the better feats wins clear as day.


The right way



			
				Pecola said:
			
		

> Alternatively other people choose the option/argument that supreme beings are well basically equal to each other by virtue of having the same/similar roles and that logically a supreme being is assumed to be capable of performing any feat regardless of their respective verse's settings





			
				 No - limits fallacy (NLF) said:
			
		

> This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).
> 
> Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."
> 
> The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.


The wrong way
Supreme beings vary in power
There’s no logic in saying that a guy who created a single universe can stalemate someone like TOAA



			
				Pecola said:
			
		

> But if the settings/scope of both opposing verses are roughly the same, then the supreme beings would have to be assumed equal.


Ah I see what you mean



			
				Pecola said:
			
		

> I mean, if someone were to step aside from "*his verse is bigger than his opposition's*", how else would you argue supreme being vs supreme being?


There's no other way to argue over it when dealing with cosmic reality warpers
The size of the verse show the limit of its creator


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## Solrac (Aug 17, 2013)

But SOME omnipotent vs omnipotent matches will have one person saying that "this supreme being is stronger than the other because he created a multiverse and the other only created a universe"... 

and which the argument in return may be immediately refuted by the other person using the "but the multiverse of that supreme being is so much smaller and more unquantifiable in size than the single universe that this supreme being has created" or "but it's not a multiverse, it's just several dimensions and dimensions =/= universes lollolololololololoolol" excuses. 

And so on, back and forth. 

anyways, why hasn't this thread been locked yet?


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## Weather (Aug 17, 2013)

This thread...


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## midgetoverlord (Aug 17, 2013)

This thread came up a while ago and it was generally agreed that with eru and the GG's restricted LotR would win. Without them restricted it just became a shitstorm.


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## Nevermind (Aug 17, 2013)

It's not really a shit storm at all. Eru has better feats and therefore LotR would still win.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 17, 2013)

It shouldn't be Eru is clearly stronger, because even if we put the Goddesses at Eru's level to all 3 of them were required to create.

Honestly the Triforce seems to be more dangerous than the Goddesses considering it is their combined power.


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## Solrac (Aug 17, 2013)

^ Sorry bro, but I think you have it backwards, Orochibuto. The Triforce is nothing more than a mere fragment of the Golden Goddesses's power that can grant wishes and the removed appendix of their very divine essence contained within itself. The Triforce is even said to be below the Goddesses themselves. 

Honestly, I just find it really funny how everyone else is mostly ignoring the GG's feats while repeatedly chanting "Erustompseveryonelol" in one chorus. How entertaining. 

Anyways, why hasn't the damn mods come and put their shiny locks on this thread yet? :/


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## Orochibuto (Aug 17, 2013)

Pecola said:


> ^ Sorry bro, but I think you have it backwards, Orochibuto. The Triforce is nothing more than a mere fragment of the Golden Goddesses's power that can grant wishes and the removed appendix of their very divine essence contained within itself. The Triforce is even said to be below the Goddesses themselves.
> 
> Honestly, I just find it really funny how everyone else is mostly ignoring the GG's feats while repeatedly chanting "Erustompseveryonelol" in one chorus. How entertaining.
> 
> Anyways, why hasn't the damn mods come and put their shiny locks on this thread yet? :/



Because all 3 Goddesses were required for creation, and only 1 Eru was required. Because as stated before it is implied the Goddesses came from a Nebula or some shit and used pre-existing materials to create.

Eru as far as we know did everything from nothing. This is why.

Thanks for the Triforce information I then concede on that argument.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 17, 2013)

well, even not regarding that, Illuvatar's also been stated to know and control how past, present, and future will go, and his power is stated to have made many other places other than earth, if I remember correctly, as spirits such as maiar and valar are stated to go other places. 
So, short answer, Illuvatar made many worlds, so far as we know the golden goddesses seeded one with some effort and time. there's about as much evidence for supreme Kai being universe-level as the golden goddesses.


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## midgetoverlord (Aug 17, 2013)

Although debatable, I think Eru made at least three universes of undetermined size. The first was the Void, the first place where the Valar existed before the song, the second was Arda, and the third was when he "removed Valinor from the world". Like I said, the first and the last are highly debatable, but I think it might be worth discussing. Also, it just occured to me that LotR has something similar to the Triforce. It's stated in the Silmarillion that the Flame Imperishable will give the being who possesses it great power. However, it is also stated that it is with Eru and therefor it might be a moot point.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 17, 2013)

The FE gives the user the ability to create life, though as you stated we don't even know if it can even be wielded by someone else than Eru.


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## Solrac (Aug 17, 2013)

^ I do believe I was the one who just researched and stated the "Flame Imperishable" in one of my posts in the previous January thread I was in (dear god, reading the old thread, especially a certain someone's tl;dr post, just gave me a bit brain cancer now). 

And if you want to use that argument, I suppose just about any creator deities (especially real religious/mythological ones imo, but they're not or should not be a part of this topic anyway) that can create about one or two external realities/dimensions that include but are not limited to Heaven and Hell, outside of the main universe/world he created can be argued as somewhat multiversal/decidedly multi-dimensional as well. And i suppose we have that Aslan guy casually creating the multiverse as well. 

And anyways, as I already stated in my previous thread, the Goddesses have created separate dimensions and realms as well: Sacred Realm, Twilight Realm, World of the Ocean King, and Termina. And there's also the Sacred Flame, another thing that the Goddesses created. And I don't give a rat's ass if someone tries to bash me over the head with the "but all those dimensions are small planet-sized ones" excuse. 

And once again, where are the stupid mods when you need them?


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 17, 2013)

Dimensions =/= Universes 
Unless stated otherwise
You're a bit dense


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## Solrac (Aug 17, 2013)

Louis Cyphre, I know that. I was simply playing the Devil's Advocate by using the opposition's logic. 

No need to snap at me. 

And again, I'm getting really tired of debating this already and I need to go to bed now.

And...


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 18, 2013)

Basically the Goddesses created some tiny dimensions and planets whereas Eru created a universe
Seems we have a winner here


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## Linkofone (Aug 18, 2013)

It seems like we had a similar situation like this before ... or was this the same one?


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## KaiserWombat (Aug 19, 2013)

Yeah, upon actually reviewing the nature of your "last post", I do not think it would be remotely fair to conclude this thread on such misinformed content.

For one thing, you're the only person I've seen on this site puporting that the Goddesses of the Zeldaverse are capable of creating even a single universe: from the information provided in the blurb, "millions of worlds" only means million of planets were formed, not any other cosmological features like stars, for example (especially considering that Termina itself is explicitly referenced in an individual capacity).

And your assumption that the Tolkienverse doesn't correlate in size or scale to the RL universe despite direct author references to the contrary is pretty dire, I have to admit. (I will provide appropriate links soon, busy atm).

Next time Pecola, please provide a link to the thread in question so I may have an immediate opportunity for a look at the topic myself before I make such decisions: this closure was predominantly my fault for not paying sufficient attention, but it is also a helpful policy to provide links to any discussion when conversing with a mod (or really, any poster on the site).


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## Solrac (Aug 19, 2013)

Alright, I WAS going to let this thread die before I made my last post. But I didn't want to end it without me having my final rebuttal. 

And the second this thread was re-opened, I decided to delete my last post and just... well...


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## TehChron (Aug 19, 2013)

You got called out.


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## Solrac (Aug 19, 2013)

^ I don't care anymore. 

I just want this thread to die already. Cause it's boring me to death with the same bullcrap over and over. 

I only came here and argued for the Zelda side/GG's in the first place, because everyone else kept ignoring/downplaying their feats and I felt fit to correct them (and no I don't think I'm the only person who believes that GG's can create a universe, if they're the supreme creators of the Zelda series, why couldn't they? But i'm not going to argue that any further). And regardless of whether their claim that Eru would win is correct, I just felt like arguing against the crowd and arguing for the side that is less argued for in this context, since what fun is a debate if nearly everyone just argues for one side only? 

That said, if anyone else wants to continue debating in this useless thread (as long as KaiserWombat is keeping it re-opened), then fine go ahead, it's the lot of you's problems.

But I have better threads in the OBD to focus on and post in. 

Now if the mods can really close this thread sooner, I would totally appreciate it. Thanks.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 20, 2013)

Pecola said:


> ^ I don't care anymore.



Then why are you still responding?

You DO care.  You'd ignore this thread otherwise.

So, if you don't care, don't respond again.

I find it hilarious when someone says "I don't care" in this sort of context.  They're always lying through their teeth.



> I just want this thread to die already. Cause it's boring me to death with the same bullcrap over and over.



Of course you want it to die, its pissing you off.

On the flip side of things, it seems to grate the living shit out of you if you don't get the last word in.

Hence your contradictory behavior of keeping it alive anyway.

Log out, do something else, ignore us.  You're not helping yourself here.  At all.



> I only came here and argued for the Zelda side/GG's in the first place, because everyone else kept ignoring/downplaying their feats and I felt fit to correct them (and no I don't think I'm the only person who believes that GG's can create a universe, if they're the supreme creators of the Zelda series, why couldn't they? But i'm not going to argue that any further).



No one was ignoring anything.

Its your job to defend your stance and provide evidence to support it.  You gave your evidence, yet it proved insufficient to conclusively prove your point.  There are numerous interpretations to your quote, and Occam's Razor doesn't support yours.



> And regardless of whether their claim that Eru would win is correct, I just felt like arguing against the crowd and arguing for the side that is less argued for in this context, since what fun is a debate if nearly everyone just argues for one side only?



No, it is correct.  Eru has the better supporting evidence.  

Arguing against the crowd for the sake of arguing against the crowd is unproductive and can be construed as trolling dude.  If you had a valid reason for it, sure, that's fine, the majority isn't always right, but you're (trying to anyway) making it sound like you did it for the hell of it whether you were right or wrong.



> That said, if anyone else wants to continue debating in this useless thread (as long as KaiserWombat is keeping it re-opened), then fine go ahead, it's the lot of you's problems.



I genuinely suggest doing something far away from here.



> But I have better threads in the OBD to focus on and post in.



You don't need to inform us.  Just go and do it.


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## Red Angel (Aug 20, 2013)

lolAsasssin

Though yea Eru does have better feats (universe creating, although I thought the Tolkien-verse had a different cosmology or something?)


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