# List of characters who are decisively stronger than Itachi



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 11, 2016)

Based solely on feats. No hype or portrayal. Don't factor in match ups. 

Just list shinobi who are decisively stronger than Itachi(all incarnations) based on feats, overall. 

Filler characters like Kaguya and Rikodou sennin excluded of course.


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## ARGUS (Mar 11, 2016)

Excluding the super obvious ones. 

Naruto - BM and above 
Sasuke - EMS And above 
Madara 
Hashirama 
Edo minato - BM 
Obito - Rinnegan and above 
Nagato 
Kabuto
Toneri


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## Mercurial (Mar 11, 2016)

Kaguya
Hagoromo/Rikudo Sennin/Sage of Six Paths
Madara (Juubi full power) (Juubi 1 Rinnegan) (SM + 1 Rinnegan) (Edo) (EMS + Kyuubi) (EMS) (MS)
Kakashi (DMS + Rikudo chakra) (War Arc 1 MS)
Naruto (Adult) (Rikudo Senjutsu) (BSM) (BM) (KCM)
Sasuke (Adult) (Rinnegan) (EMS)
Gai (up to 8th Gate but 6th Gate Gai is already > Itachi)
Obito (DMS + Rikudo chakra) (Juubi) (War Arc MS + Rinnegan) (MS)
Momoshiki
Hamura
Toneri
Kinshiki
Hashirama 
Minato (Edo) (Alive)
Nagato (Edo) (Six Paths of Pain)
Tobirama
Kabuto (SM + various upgrades)


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## Bonly (Mar 11, 2016)

8th Gated Gai 
Orochi
Kabuto
Hashi
Madara
Edo Minato
Rinnegan Obito
BSM Naruto
BM Naruto
EMS Sasuke
Nagato


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## Clowe (Mar 11, 2016)

Sage Kabuto
EMS Sasuke
KCM Naruto
MS Obito
Nagato
War Kakashi
Minato
Hashirama
Madara
8th gate Guy


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## Sadgoob (Mar 11, 2016)

Sasuke 
Naruto
Hashirama 
Madara 
Edo Minato
Kabuto with Edo Tensei
Orochimaru with Edo Tensei
Obito Uchiha with tailed beasts
Nagato with tailed beasts

Gai is stronger in the 8th Gate, but he has no genjutsu defense, and would lose before he got to use it. All the above names actually have quite potent genjutsu defense, with Orochimaru being the arguable exception. Tobirama and living Minato also notably have no special genjutsu defense.


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## ImSerious (Mar 11, 2016)

God tiers
Minato
Nagato
SM Kabuto
Obito
Pain
Tobirama
Gai 8th gate
Hashirama

off the top of my head


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## Jad (Mar 11, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Itachi beats Gai before the 8th Gate comes out.



Nah. Gai could beat him in 7 anyways.


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## LostSelf (Mar 11, 2016)

Bonly said:


> 8th Gated Gai
> Orochi
> Kabuto
> Hashi
> ...



I go with this list.


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 11, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Excluding the super obvious ones.
> 
> Naruto - BM and above
> Sasuke - EMS And above
> ...



This is on point maybe add Tobirama


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## Matty (Mar 11, 2016)

Konan
Ibisu
Iruka
Base CE Lee
Prime Hidan

To name a few


*Spoiler*: __ 



For real though, Tobirama is not stronger than Itachi. I actually think he's quite overrated. Extremely powerful but he can't hang with high tiers at all. He's on the low end of high kage for me


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## Jad (Mar 11, 2016)

Adult Lee abd The Last Lee as well.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 11, 2016)

1. 




...Well, that's all of them.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 11, 2016)

Orochimaru with Edo Tensei is not stronger than Itachi, get that shit out of here.


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## Mercurial (Mar 11, 2016)

That's true, Itachi can simply Tsukuyomi GG or Totsuka GG Orochimaru before he can summon the Edo Tensei.


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## Empathy (Mar 11, 2016)

What about Danzo? He's been left off of every list so far.


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## Matty (Mar 11, 2016)

Empathy said:


> What about Danzo? He's been left off of every list so far.



Because he's not stronger


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## Empathy (Mar 11, 2016)

Danzo has _Kotoamatsukami_, which worked on Itachi canonically.


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## Matty (Mar 11, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Danzo has _Kotoamatsukami_, which worked on Itachi canonically.



Fuck my life, you're right


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## ARGUS (Mar 11, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> This is on point maybe add Tobirama



Thanks, and yeah I forgot about him 
Though I wouldn't consider him to be on another level to him, which is what the OP seems to be asking for


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## Saru (Mar 11, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Excluding the super obvious ones.
> 
> Naruto - BM and above
> Sasuke - EMS And above
> ...




This list is on point. However, I think that Itachi and Nagato are on the same general level, even if Nagato is "decisively stronger." For Nagato to be on another level from Itachi, he would have to be in the same tier as Madara and Hashirama, and he simply doesn't belong there. The alternative is a "Nagato" tier with no one in it but Nagato and Kabuto (and maybe Rinne Obito), which doesn't make a lot of sense either.​


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## LostSelf (Mar 11, 2016)

I've always seen Nagato as the bridge to the semi god tiers.

So yeah, he can be in a tier on his own, above Itachi, below Madara. At least, by my standards .


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> This list is on point. However, I think that Itachi and Nagato are on the same general level, even if Nagato is "decisively stronger." For Nagato to be on another level from Itachi, he would have to be in the same tier as Madara and Hashirama, and he simply doesn't belong there. The alternative is a "Nagato" tier with no one in it but Nagato and Kabuto (and maybe Rinne Obito), which doesn't make a lot of sense either.​



I put nagato in a tier of his own. kabuto/rinne obito would be a tier under nagato but above itachi/minato tier


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## Drake (Mar 11, 2016)

Can Kabuto beat Itachi, though? The only time Itachi fought him was when he could not risk killing Kabuto and was forced to protect Sasuke as well. Also Itachi beat him with Izanami. Not trying to wank, I'm actually curious.


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## Matty (Mar 11, 2016)

Kabuto could probably do it. Logically he is way more powerful but Itachi (Main characters in general) got bailed out by plot jutsus. Not even a cool one  would've been much more satisfying if he Tsukuyomi'd him.

Long story short, he can, logically him and healthy itachi are about same level but he really can't as per canon


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2016)

1. Kaguya
2. Hagoromo
3. Indra
4. Ashura
5. Gai (8th-Gate)
6. Sasuke
7. Naruto
8. Madara
10. Hashirama
11. Obito
12. Nagato
13. Kabuto
14. Danzo
15. Shisui
16. Ginkaku + Kinkaku (I know they are two people, but they are typically considered one, exclude them if it's an issue)
17. Dai (8th-Gate)

Than we get into the grey area, where it depends how one defines decisive. Like I think the following are stronger than Itachi, but I don't think the gap is all that big. So if decisive means a big gap, than exclude these characters, but if it just means we believe they are clearly ahead, even if it's just a bit than include them:

18. Tobirama
19. Minato
20. Jiraiya
21. Killer-B

Though I'd probably put Edo-Itachi >= Jiriaya & B, but here I assume were talking living.

I'd also put Sakura (War-Arc) and Tsunade, above Itachi, but not in individual strength but in terms of overall ability as Shinobi.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 12, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Danzo has _Kotoamatsukami_, which worked on Itachi canonically.



It worked in giving Itachi a command he made no resistance toward whatsoever, because it's something he wanted. That's not really a metric on whether Kotoamatsukami can truly make Itachi submit in ways he doesn't want. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> 16. Ginkaku + Kinkaku
> 17. Dai (8th-Gate)
> 18. Tobirama
> 19. Minato
> ...



Turrin being Turrin.


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## Empathy (Mar 12, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> It worked in giving Itachi a command he made no resistance toward whatsoever, because it's something he wanted. That's not really a metric on whether Kotoamatsukami can truly make Itachi submit in ways he doesn't want.



Itachi also thought it'd work on EMS Sasuke with Itachi's eyes to make him protect the village of Konoha, which would be the complete antithesis of his actual wishes. In the case of Edo Itachi, it doesn't really matter what Itachi wants, but what Kabuto wants. If Kabuto willed him to resist it and Itachi were capable of doing so, then that would've been the case.



Turrin said:


> 1. Kaguya
> 2. Hagoromo
> 3. Indra
> 4. Ashura
> ...



No Orochimaru with Edo Hokages?


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## Kyu (Mar 12, 2016)

Besides Kaguya and Hagoromo...


Naruto (KCM and up)
Sasuke (EMS and up)
Toneri
Momoshiki
Kinshiki
Madara 
Hashirama 
Edo Minato
Obito (Rinnegan and up)
Nagato
Six Paths of Pain
Sage Mode Kabuto


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## Nikushimi (Mar 12, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Danzo has _Kotoamatsukami_, which worked on Itachi canonically.



Itachi knows about Koto, though. That's not gonna work. Itachi can logically divorce his actions from his feelings, as proven when he shoved a katana through his parents' backs like a kebab.

Danzo commands "Serve me" and Itachi's gonna be all "Fuck you. Izanami!"


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## StarWanderer (Mar 12, 2016)

I can see MS Obito beating Itachi 7 out of 10 times. There is no need for "Rinnegan and above".


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## Nikushimi (Mar 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> 13. Kabuto



Totsuka Blade seals.



> 14. Danzo



Izanami > Izanagi.



> 15. Shisui



Shisui is just an Itachi with no Tsuku/Ama or spiritual weapons. And a Genjutsu once every ten years, per eye, that Itachi has full knowledge of and can intentionally deviate from.



> 16. Ginkaku + Kinkaku (I know they are two people, but they are typically considered one, exclude them if it's an issue)



Itachi would rape Kinkaku and Ginkaku at the same time like Jared Fogle running naked through a field of kindergarteners. There is fuck-all they can do about his Genjutsu, Amaterasu, or Totsuka Blade.



> 17. Dai (8th-Gate)



Completely featless and liable to be killed before the 8th Gate is ever an issue, if anything even indicated he could use it to begin with.



> 20. Jiraiya
> 21. Killer-B



Itachi owns them both with Susano'o.



> I'd also put Sakura (War-Arc) and Tsunade, above Itachi, but not in individual strength but in terms of overall ability as Shinobi.



Well, there was really no need for me to bother with any of this, was there?


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## Sapherosth (Mar 12, 2016)

God tiers...... pretty much it.     With no-intel. 


With intel and prep, there will be a few who can probably beat him. But with no intel, it's not gonna happen.

There are many who are decisively stronger in fire-power, but fire-power isn't the only factor in a fight. 


I don't even think EMS Sasuke is "decisively stronger" than Itachi either. Given the showings in their fight against Kabuto, it's clear who's above. (Excluding fire power) as I've said before. It won't be an easy fight.



In order to be concluded as decisively stronger, they'll need to be able to :

Avoid Tsukuyomi (no eye contact/even for jins)
Avoid Amateratsu (Not that hard anymore tbh but slow starters are fucked)
Get through V4 Susano (Need fire power)
Combat taijutsu (With susano arms popping out instantaneously)
Get through Yata Mirror (Need MORE fire power)
Avoid Tosuka sword (Well, 2 stabs 2 kill so far, albeit both opponents lacked mobility) Still doesn't mean it's not going to land on other characters. A lot of techniques require time to charge up.


Possibly Izanagi as well, given the fact that  Uchiha's have been known to use Izanagi's in the past without Senju DNA, and given Itachi's knowledge on uchiha jutsu's and skill, it's not a stretch to say he can very well use it, but we just haven't been given the scenario where he needed it.

You'll also have to outsmart him when he's reading your thoughts and analyzing.

You'll also have to be able to overcome his reflexes, knowledge and mindset (ending fights quickly, no BS).


There isn't anyone who is decisively stronger that you can say with confidence to deal with all these without being Semi-God- God tier.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

By decisively stronger I mean who can consistently beat him regardless of the circumstances, I'm not talking about characters who have a shot @ beating him, so you can exclude characters like Minato or Tobirama or whoever you think falls into that category.

I am iffy about Nagato as I think there are circumstances in which Itachi can defeat him, although I don't mind people putting him in their list.

For me it is VOTE Madara & Hashirama and above. 

Kaguya and her lineage(sons, cousins, aunts, uncles, best friends, etc.) excluded like I said in the op. Also please don't throw in filler characters and characters with no feats, just to make the list long like Turrin.


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## Dr. White (Mar 12, 2016)

I don't care about ya'll rankings. I'm just here to remind ya'll that Tobirama gets his shit rocked. That is all.


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## Saru (Mar 12, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> I put nagato in a tier of his own. kabuto/rinne obito would be a tier under nagato but above itachi/minato tier




Eh, I understand why people would do that, I just don't think the gap between Itachi (or Minato for that matter) and Nagato is drastic enough to warrant a separate tier of sorts, although I agree that Nagato is stronger by a good margin.

Rinne Obito *>>* Nagato. He has all of Nagato's abilities and Kamui, Izanagi, and Mokuton on top of that. Then if we take the Juubi into account, Obito's obviously far stronger.



Drake said:


> Can Kabuto beat Itachi, though? The only time Itachi fought him was when he could not risk killing Kabuto and was forced to protect Sasuke as well. Also Itachi beat him with Izanami. Not trying to wank, I'm actually curious.




Itachi didn't have to fight Kabuto's army of Edo Tensei. IMO, It's a huge stretch to say that Itachi would be able to prevent Kabuto from summoning a single Edo Tensei (i.e. Nagato) in a one-on-one battle with Itachi. I think one can feasibly make that argument against Orochimaru, but not Kabuto.​


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## The Third Raikage (Mar 12, 2016)

Matty said:


> Konan
> Ibisu
> Iruka
> Base CE Lee
> ...


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2016)

Empathy said:


> No Orochimaru with Edo Hokages?


I'm not sure how well Orochimaru can actually control the Hokages, if they aren't complaint in his plans.



			
				Grimmjowsensei;55344484s said:
			
		

> , aunts, uncles, best friends, etc.) excluded like I said in the op. Also please don't throw in filler characters and characters with no feats, just to make the list long like Turrin.


What characters did I include w/o feats? 



Nikushimi said:


> Totsuka Blade seals.


He needed Sasuke's help to hit him, he's not landing Totsuka blade.



> Izanami > Izanagi.


A Crow armed w/ Kotoamatsukami beat Itachi; Danzo > Crow.



> Shisui is just an Itachi with no Tsuku/Ama or spiritual weapons. And a Genjutsu once every ten years, per eye, that Itachi has full knowledge of and can intentionally deviate from.


A Crow armed w/ Kotoamatsukami beat Itachi; Shisui > Crow.



> Itachi would rape Kinkaku and Ginkaku at the same time like Jared Fogle running naked through a field of kindergarteners. There is fuck-all they can do about his Genjutsu, Amaterasu, or Totsuka Blade.


Gin & Kin beat Tobirama, that's enough for me to say that your not being fair to them w/ a post like this.

Anyway given Grim's stipulation that they need to be able to beat Itachi 100% of the time under any circumstances, I'd probably take them off the list.



> Completely featless and liable to be killed before the 8th Gate is ever an issue, if anything even indicated he could use it to begin with.


I specifically stipulated that if he's in 8th-Gate.



> Itachi owns them both with Susano'o.


Itachi and Jiraiya are roughly equals, get over it. Jiraiya is however the overall the better Ninja because he can use his strongest moves w/o moving closer to being blind or dead. Same thing w/ Killer-B.



> Well, there was really no need for me to bother with any of this, was there?


If you don't think Tsunade and Sakura (War-Arc) are better all around Shinobi your being biased. Both of them can provide ridiculous jutsu boosting powers, healing off entire armies, while at the same time providing Kage level fire power. Itachi is stronger in 1v1 combat, but he is vastly dwarfed in support and team/platoon combat.

Though again we can exclude these based on Grim's clarification.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Mar 12, 2016)

I would say:

Madara
Hashirama
BM Naruto
EMS Sasuke
Eight Gates Gai
Sage Kabuto w/ Edo Tensei (i.e. he has a couple of powerful Edos present and supporting him on the battlefield)


I haven't seen The Last, so I can't speak to characters like Toneri and Momoshiki (and they might fall under Grimm's exclusion of god-tiers anyway).


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## Sadgoob (Mar 12, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Itachi also thought it'd work on EMS Sasuke with Itachi's eyes to make him protect the village of Konoha, which would be the complete antithesis of his actual wishes. In the case of Edo Itachi, it doesn't really matter what Itachi wants, but what Kabuto wants. If Kabuto willed him to resist it and Itachi were capable of doing so, then that would've been the case.



It overrode Edo, but that doesn't mean it can't be resisted. We saw Mifune resist when he made aware of the manipulation by Ao. We know Danzo beat Shisui and took one eye from him. 

The power of Koto is its subtlety in implanting thoughts. Ao's initial hype of the jutsu was "change thoughts without the person even realizing it." If you realize the change, you can counter it. 

It may have worked on EMS Sasuke because Sasuke had no knowledge of what Kotoamatsukami was, and was thus in a poor position to be mindful and defend himself against the manipulation.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I
> What characters did I include w/o feats?



Without feats : 
Hagoromo
Indra
Ashura
Shisui
Dai

Kin & Gin don't have the feats to beat Itachi even together, so I guess you also put them there only because of hype or some other shit. They are filler/fodder anyways, so I wouldn't put them even if they had proper feats.

It is meaningless to put Kaguya in the list as she is not just filler but she will be there in every list as she is stronger than everybody that we know of.

You also have a couple of characters who have a shot @ beating Itachi like Minato, Danzo, Tobirama, rather than being able to beat him consistently and characters who have no realistic shot @ beating him like Jiraiya or Kirabi, so you gotta trim that list down a bit.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 12, 2016)

I think starting from Post-Juubito EMS Sasuke and above . 

He got a chance aainst anyone weaker than this .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

^
My man.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 12, 2016)

The list is not in any specific order, these are characters that just came to mind as I was thinking about it.
Kaguya/Hagoromo/Indra/Ashura (obvious enough)
Madara (all version except Edo Madara)
Hashirama (all versions, living or dead)
Tobirama (more so on hype than Hiraishin)
Minato w/Kyuubi
Orochimaru (w/ET)
Danzo (only w/KA)
Nagato
Shisui
Obito (All versions except Gaiden)
Kakashi (War Arc, DMS)
Gai (7th Gate or higher)
Naruto (Post-Kyuubi Shroud)
Sasuke (Post-Kage Summit/Danzo fight, essentially EMS)
Kabuto (Dragon Sage Mode, no ET)
I didn't include movie characters because I didn't see many of them anyway nor are they memorable at all.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 12, 2016)

Hashirama
Madara
Naruto(BM and above)
Kabuto with prep
Sasuke(EMS and above)
Edo Minato
DMS Kakashi
Obito(Rinnegan+Jins and above)

Some powerful folks lack feats and/or are on Itachi's general level.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> He needed Sasuke's help to hit him, he's not landing Totsuka blade.



No, actually he ran up and parried Kabuto by himself with Sasuke's sword. Replace with Totsuka Blade and Kabuto is finished.



> A Crow armed w/ Kotoamatsukami beat Itachi; Danzo > Crow.
> 
> A Crow armed w/ Kotoamatsukami beat Itachi; Shisui > Crow.



Edo Itachi wasn't "beaten"; the Edo Tensei contract was overwritten. Itachi then gained autonomy, which would have included continuing to back up Nagato and support Kabuto if he wanted to do that.



> Gin & Kin beat Tobirama, that's enough for me to say that your not being fair to them w/ a post like this.



This is the same nonsense Hussain keeps trying to sell. The brothers had back up from 18 other guys we know nothing about and we didn't see the fight play out.



> Anyway given Grim's stipulation that they need to be able to beat Itachi 100% of the time under any circumstances, I'd probably take them off the list.



Kinkaku and Ginkaku have 0% chance of beating Itachi unless he is on the verge of dying from his own poor health. If he has even 10 seconds left in him, he is going to skewer and seal them both or light them up with Amaterasu...or rape their minds.



> Itachi and Jiraiya are roughly equals, get over it.



Nothing suggests Itachi and Jiraiya are equals. Drugged Jiraiya was on the losing end of comparable in his fight against an armless, Taijutsu-only Orochimaru, under what the latter observed as a mutual handicap. And look how badly Oro got his shit pushed in by Itachi. He never even had a chance to use his Jutsu, which completely dissolves any notion that Jiraiya's moveset would fare him better.



> Jiraiya is however the overall the better Ninja because he can use his strongest moves w/o moving closer to being blind or dead. Same thing w/ Killer-B.



Itachi has to put up with the drawbacks in exchange for Jutsu that can one-shot Jiraiya or B.



> If you don't think Tsunade and Sakura (War-Arc) are better all around Shinobi your being biased. Both of them can provide ridiculous jutsu boosting powers, healing off entire armies, while at the same time providing Kage level fire power. Itachi is stronger in 1v1 combat, but he is vastly dwarfed in support and team/platoon combat.
> 
> Though again we can exclude these based on Grim's clarification.



Support is a role within a group, not an individual skill.

Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Intelligence, Speed, and Seals... Itachi surpasses them in all of these.


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 12, 2016)

Lists in no particular order

Beats him:
Kaguya
Hagoromo
Asura
Indra
Madara - Any version
Naruto 
Sasuke - EMS and above
Obito - Any version
Hashirama 
Nagato
Minato 
Tobirama
Kabuto - DSM should be enough -- Edo Tensei he stomps
Gai - 8th gate obviously - 7th gate can push itachi to his limits
Kakashi - DMS + Rikudo chakra for sure - War arc kakashi can put up a good fight
Momoshiki
Hamura
Toneri
Kinshiki

50/50 or what ifs:
Danzo - Koto
Shisui - Hype puts him on par if not superior to Itachi
Muu - Can Itachi detect him if not I give him the slight edge
Genjutsu - Can Itachi see through the illusion fast enough to not be killed by joki boi
Ginkaku + Kinkaku - Hype and off panel feats suggest they can - actual edo tensei feats not so much - still a mystery 
Bee - Can Totsuka seal a bijuu? Dont see Itachi surviving Tailed Beast Bomb Barrage 
Jiraiya - needs to make it into SM to stand a chance


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

That one actually could be worse than Turrin's list I'm not sure. Stopped reading @ Ashura.


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## Dr. White (Mar 12, 2016)




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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

Now thats a good list


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## Rocky (Mar 12, 2016)

1.) Sasuke with Itachi's eyes.

2.) Itachi.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 12, 2016)

After watching the latest Anime I'm not sure anymore but in all seriousness if you're talking about a shadow of the doubt , Itachi has zero chance of beating 


1.Kaguya
2.Hagoromo
3.Indra
3.Ashura
4.Naruto(BM>)
5.Sasuke(P.S>)
6.Kabuto
7.Hashirama
8.Madara
9.Obito(Rinnegan)

M.S Obito, Danzo,Nagato,Minato,Tobirama,Jiraiya,Bee are all shinobi who I think in a good scenario could go either way 

Everyone else he beats


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That one actually could be worse than Turrin's list I'm not sure. Stopped reading @ Ashura.



I don't think he meant the pain body.


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That one actually could be worse than Turrin's list I'm not sure. Stopped reading @ Ashura.



Asura * and not the pain path lol

As always quick to comment negativly with zero argument


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## Itachі (Mar 12, 2016)

*Beats Itachi in neutral conditions*

Nagato
Hashirama
Madara
Pain
Edo Minato
SM Kabuto
EMS Sasuke
KCM Naruto
Danzo 

*50/50 in neutral conditions*

Minato
Tobirama 
MS Obito [More 55/45 to Obito]
MS Kakashi [Kakashi probably wins if Itachi doesn't have knowledge on Kamui]


*Have a shot at beating Itachi in neutral conditions*

Jiraiya 
Onoki


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Asura * and not the pain path lol
> 
> As always quick to comment negativly with zero argument






Ryuzaki said:


> I don't think he meant the pain body.



I know who he meant. Asura has 0 feats. I specified the rules in the op and later on in the thread.
No filler characters and characters without feats.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Without feats :
> Hagoromo
> Indra
> Ashura
> ...


Hagoromo has the feat of summoning the spirits of every undead Kage to aid him in combat, which by itself is enough to fodder fuck Itachi.

Indra has the feat of Giant P-Susano'o and Ashura has the feat of Bijuu Avatar fighting against it. Again more than enough to fodder fuck Itachi

We've seen Shisui's Koto used and even a fodder crow armed w/ it beat Edo-Itachi

Dai has the feat of going 8th-Gate, which again is enough to own Itachi.



> Kin & Gin don't have the feats to beat Itachi even together, so I guess you also put them there only because of hype or some other shit. They are filler/fodder anyways, so I wouldn't put them even if they had proper feats.


Gin&Kin beat Tobirama and are stated to have power surpassing the Gokage when using the treasure tools, so call them fodder is just a denial of authorial intent.

As for whether they have the feats, that's opinion based, and imo they do considering how broken the treasures are and the power of V2-KN6.



> It is meaningless to put Kaguya in the list as she is not just filler but she will be there in every list as she is stronger than everybody that we know of.


It's not pointless, you asked whose stronger than Itachi and I answered. Hence the point. Just be happy I didn't include Tonrei, Kinshiki, and Momoshiki.



> You also have a couple of characters who have a shot @ beating Itachi like Minato, Danzo, Tobirama, rather than being able to beat him consistently and characters who have no realistic shot @ beating him like Jiraiya or Kirabi, so you gotta trim that list down a bit.


I didn't know what you were going for precisely, see my response to Niku.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 12, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> No, actually he ran up and parried Kabuto by himself with Sasuke's sword. Replace with Totsuka Blade and Kabuto is finished.


Replace it w/ the Totsuka sword and Kabuto dodges instead of opting to clash w/ him.



> Edo Itachi wasn't "beaten"; the Edo Tensei contract was overwritten. Itachi then gained autonomy, which would have included continuing to back up Nagato and support Kabuto if he wanted to do that.


Edo-Itachi had knowledge of Koto and was programmed to automatically defend attacks against himself, even still he was helpless against a fodder crow using Koto. Given that there is no way in hell he doesn't loose to Danzo or Shisui wielding Koto.



> This is the same nonsense Hussain keeps trying to sell. The brothers had back up from 18 other guys we know nothing about and we didn't see the fight play out.


No they didn't, there are two separate events. 1)Kinkaku Squad kills Tobirama 1v20, and 2)Gin&Kin beat the piss out of Tobirama 1v2



> Kinkaku and Ginkaku have 0% chance of beating Itachi unless he is on the verge of dying from his own poor health. If he has even 10 seconds left in him, he is going to skewer and seal them both or light them up with Amaterasu...or rape their minds.


They beat Tobirama and were called stronger than any current Gokage in the DB, clearly they have a chance to beat Itachi.



> Nothing suggests Itachi and Jiraiya are equals. Drugged Jiraiya was on the losing end of comparable in his fight against an armless, Taijutsu-only Orochimaru, under what the latter observed as a mutual handicap. And look how badly Oro got his shit pushed in by Itachi. He never even had a chance to use his Jutsu, which completely dissolves any notion that Jiraiya's moveset would fare him better.


Your standpoint is based on taking a villain's boast seriously and a biased interpretation of Itachi vs Orochimaru, so i'm not going to waste my time on your denial of cannon



> Itachi has to put up with the drawbacks in exchange for Jutsu that can one-shot Jiraiya or B.


And J-man & B have Jutsu that can one-shot Itachi w/o as steep drawbacks



> Support is a role within a group, not an individual skill.


Which is exactly what I said, they are better as a total package. Most Ninja battles are 4 Man Cell or platoon battles.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I know who he meant. Asura has 0 feats. I specified the rules in the op and later on in the thread.
> No filler characters and characters without feats.



Oh well yeah then ignore the top few, I just bunched them in one but you know even based on hype and flashback, I don't see them winning though. Indra's Arrow is probably stronger than anything Itachi has in his arsenal and likewise I don't think I could put Itachi beating BM Naruto or BM Minato, so I don't know if I would say that Ashura loses especially with his kyuubi mode.

*Definitely a cut above Itachi:*

Kaguya
Hagoromo (should be obvious)
Madara (all version except Edo Madara)
Hashirama (all versions, living or dead)
Minato w/Kyuubi
Orochimaru (w/ET)
Danzo (only w/KA)
Nagato
Obito (All versions except Gaiden)
Kakashi (War Arc, DMS)
Gai (7th Gate or higher)
Naruto (Post-Kyuubi Shroud)
Sasuke (Post-Kage Summit/Danzo fight, essentially EMS)
Kabuto (Dragon Sage Mode, no ET)
*Maybe need some more feats:*
Indra/Ashura (probably not enough feats but Indra's Arrow/BM Ashura?)
Tobirama (more so on hype than Hiraishin)
Shisui
These last few should be able to do it despite not showing having the exact feats to do so.


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## ARGUS (Mar 12, 2016)

Saru said:


> This list is on point. However, I think that Itachi and Nagato are on the same general level, even if Nagato is "decisively stronger." For Nagato to be on another level from Itachi, *he would have to be in the same tier as Madara and Hashirama,* and he simply doesn't belong there. The alternative is a "Nagato" tier with no one in it but Nagato and Kabuto (and maybe Rinne Obito), which doesn't make a lot of sense either.​




thanks, but i have to disagree with Nagato. If you said the Six Paths of Pein then I would definitely agree as they're in the same general tier, but Nagato is above 
Especially when we saw the crippled controlled man almost kill KCM Naruto and Bee 
And when we canonically saw Itachi require the help of both the jins to take CT out 

you are right about Nagato being on the tier of his own. thats where I put him too since he isn't quite at the top tier but is much stronger than the guys below. To me that makes more sense than pittimg him with guys much stronger like BM Naruto/BM minato or putting him as low as base minatos level 

Hashirama and Madara level is overkill doe. I consider any one on BM Narutos level or EMS Sasuke w/PS to be decisively stronger than him. Hashirama or Madara would obliterate even Naruto and Sasuke decisively 



​


----------



## Empathy (Mar 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I'm not sure how well Orochimaru can actually control the Hokages, if they aren't complaint in his plans.



Tobirama tried to go against his wishes, and immediately got shut down. The only one he said he couldn't control was Hashirama. He has Hashirama's DNA, which was what was credited for his subjugation of the other Edo Hokages.



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi knows about Koto, though. That's not gonna work. Itachi can logically divorce his actions from his feelings, as proven when he shoved a katana through his parents' backs like a kebab.
> 
> Danzo commands "Serve me" and Itachi's gonna be all "Fuck you. Izanami!"



Itachi wanted to kill his parents, though. I mean he didn't want to kill his parents, but he didn't want them to revolt more. If Itachi feels he wants to do whatever Danzo tells him to, then there's going to be no divorce between him wanting to do that and him not actually doing that for some apparent reason. 



Sadgoob said:


> It overrode Edo, but that doesn't mean it can't be resisted.​



Schematics. Overriding _Edo Tensei_ is the same as overriding Kabuto's will, and Kabuto's will is Edo Itachi's will. If it were within Itachi's capability to resist _Kotoamatsukami_, Kabuto would've had him do so, instead of trying to have him do so and failing. 



> We saw Mifune resist when he made aware of the manipulation by Ao.​



Mifune likely doesn't have any genjutsu resistance whatsoever (beyond trying to preempt it being cast on him), let alone resistance to mangekyou genjutsu. Danzo just ended it when he was found out. 



> We know Danzo beat Shisui and took one eye from him.



Shisui can only use _Kotoamatsukami_ every ten years. It's more likely that Danzo fought Shisui on one of the three-thousand-six-hundred-and-forty-nine days (that's how many days are in a decade, according to google []) that Shisui wasn't stronger than him, rather than the one day he is. 



> The power of Koto is its subtlety in implanting thoughts. Ao's initial hype of the jutsu was "change thoughts without the person even realizing it." If you realize the change, you can counter it.​



You don't need to quote Ao for its initial hype. Itachi says almost the same thing verbatim, at the same time he calls it a most powerful genjutsu. [1] 



> It may have worked on EMS Sasuke because Sasuke had no knowledge of what Kotoamatsukami was, and was thus in a poor position to be mindful and defend himself against the manipulation.​



Shisui was hailed as, "_the most powerful genjutsu user of the Uchiha_," and greatly admired by Itachi. He has one jutsu he only has the capability of using a handful times in his entire life. I refuse to believe the ultimate genjutsu of the ultimate genjutsu user of the Uchiha, which has a ten year interval, amounts to mere thought influence that totally fails the moment the target notices they're thinking something they wouldn't ordinarily think; which can be accomplished by someone with no genjutsu training whatsoever like Mifune of all people. The context of Itachi's fail-safe was that Sasuke betrays Konoha after Itachi's death and implants Itachi's eyes, and then tries to cast mangekyou jutsu on Naruto. 

In this scenario, Sasuke loathes Konoha and Naruto has to be the only one who can stop him, whilst Sasuke attempts to cast a fatal mangekyou jutsu on Naruto. Itachi's belief was that EMS Sasuke, someone with greater doujutsu fortitude than himself, in the midst of attempting to murder Naruto and destroy Konoha, Sasuke would be overwhelmed with feelings to suddenly protect the village of Konoha instead and do a complete 180? on his actions that are _actively in progress_; and Itachi's belief was that this would work on EMS Sasuke without him ever noticing that something was off about a crow with mangekyou sharingan suddenly flying into his face from Naruto's mouth during his attempted murder of Naruto right before his abrupt change-of-heart. 

You said yourself that the jutsu can change the victim's thoughts without the person ever realizing it, and it's hyped that way by both Ao and Itachi, along with being hyped as the ultimate genjutsu of the Uchiha's ultimate genjutsu user. The only thing worthy of Shisui's ten year hype is complete mind control—not easily defeated subtle thought placement. If _Kotoamatsukami_ can do all that to EMS Sasuke without him ever suspecting anything weird, then there's no way Danzo can't make Itachi do his bidding or just have Itachi kill himself without Itachi ever realizing those thoughts weren't his own. Danzo also firmly believed it'd work to defeat Obito, who he thought was EMS Madara. Itachi's got nothing to defeat the level of hype I've compiled in the last few paragraphs.


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## Itachі (Mar 12, 2016)

I agree with Empathy on Kotoamatsukami's potency.


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## ARGUS (Mar 12, 2016)

If Sasuke never fought Danzo 
Do you guys think Danzo would have taken Tobi down with KA? 
Or would Tobi just have escaped with Izanagi and eventually taken Danzo out?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Hagoromo has the feat of summoning the spirits of every undead Kage to aid him in combat, which by itself is enough to fodder fuck Itachi.



And what will the spirits do ?
Again, Hagoromo is featless.



> Indra has the feat of Giant P-Susano'o and Ashura has the feat of Bijuu Avatar fighting against it. Again more than enough to fodder fuck Itachi


Knowing what they can do can't be considered as a feat. We haven't seen them in action.

We also know he and his brother sealed Kaguya, going by what we know they should be stronger than everyone bar Kaguya and Hagoromo.  
But thats not the point of the thread.



> We've seen Shisui's Koto used and even a fodder crow armed w/ it beat Edo-Itachi


Thats not a feat.
When did Shisui fight on panel ? 



> Dai has the feat of going 8th-Gate, which again is enough to own Itachi.


Again thats not a feat.
And he went 8 gates against 7 swordsman, which makes him relatively weak compared to Gai, so we can't transfer Gai's feats to him.



> Gin&Kin beat Tobirama and are stated to have power surpassing the Gokage when using the treasure tools, so call them fodder is just a denial of authorial intent.


Unjustified hype, and again not a feat.



> As for whether they have the feats, that's opinion based, and imo they do considering how broken the treasures are and the power of V2-KN6.


Going by feats they lost to Darui and a few fodder.



> It's not pointless, you asked whose stronger than Itachi and I answered. Hence the point. Just be happy I didn't include Tonrei, Kinshiki, and Momoshiki.


It is pointless because like I said Kaguya will be in the list you'll make for every known character.

My point stands, you included lots of unrelated shit just to make the list longer.


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## Big Mom (Mar 12, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> It worked in giving Itachi a command he made no resistance toward whatsoever, because it's something he wanted. That's not really a metric on whether Kotoamatsukami can truly make Itachi submit in ways he doesn't want.



Koto was hyped as being a genjutsu that can make a person do something they didn't want to do. It was Shisui's technique, and we know how Itachi regarded Shisui. There is nothing to suggest that Koto won't work on Itachi, now you are giving Itachi feats he doesn't even have.



Drake said:


> Can Kabuto beat Itachi, though? The only time Itachi fought him was when he could not risk killing Kabuto and was forced to protect Sasuke as well. Also Itachi beat him with Izanami. Not trying to wank, I'm actually curious.



Yes, yes he can. Immunity to Genjutsu, Sage Mode, and a wide variety of techniques along with near immortality plus Edo Tensei, the answer is yes, every time. 



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi knows about Koto, though. That's not gonna work. Itachi can logically divorce his actions from his feelings, as proven when he shoved a katana through his parents' backs like a kebab.
> 
> Danzo commands "Serve me" and Itachi's gonna be all "Fuck you. Izanami!"



Then the same can be said for Danzo. Danzo knows all about the MS techniques, he will logically avoid them.

And Izanami isn't Itachi's technique, it was an asspull technique that he somehow revealed post death. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> By decisively stronger I mean who can consistently beat him regardless of the circumstances, I'm not talking about characters who have a shot @ beating him, so you can exclude characters like Minato or Tobirama or whoever you think falls into that category.
> 
> I am iffy about Nagato as I think there are circumstances in which Itachi can defeat him, although I don't mind people putting him in their list.
> 
> ...



I knew this thread stunk of bait.


----------



## Empathy (Mar 12, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I agree with Empathy on Kotoamatsukami's potency.



Thank you.



ARGUS said:


> If Sasuke never fought Danzo
> Do you guys think Danzo would have taken Tobi down with KA?
> Or would Tobi just have escaped with Izanagi and eventually taken Danzo out?



I was thinking about making a thread of it the other day, cause I dunno.


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## Big Mom (Mar 12, 2016)

I'm glad you brought up Danzo Empathy, I was about to come into the thread and comment on that when I noticed nobody was mentioning him.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 12, 2016)

LMFAO....GJ taking measure he can for Itachi, I respect it.


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## ARGUS (Mar 12, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking about making a thread of it the other day, cause I dunno.



Danzo vs Shisui makes me think that Izanagi can counter the KA. 
but then its all about how inept Obito is on finding out hes been caught, because only then can he really use Izanagi to break free. 

Danzo can also just go for the kill the second obito is caught. 

this would have been interesting route to take


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And what will the spirits do ?
> Again, Hagoromo is featless.
> My point stands, you included lots of unrelated shit just to make the list longer.


No it doesn't. It just shows that you have a different definition of what a "feat" is. For you the "feat" needs to be in battle. Like we  need to see Indra's P-Susano'o fight in battle for it to count as a "feat", while imo Indra being able to pull out P-Susano'o is the feat, and that alone is enough to place him above Itachi. Same thing w/ Kotoamatsukami, you say Shisui & Danzo himself needs to be able to use it in battle for it to be a "feat", but as far as i'm concerned we saw Koto > Itachi via the Crow and that's the feat, which can be applied to Shisui, because we know he also had the ability to use his Mangekyo. And So on.

Plus, I could easily claim the same of you, that your intentionally trying to shorten the list, by only allowing characters w/ feats, only making it characters that can defeat Itachi 100% of the time, and than on top of it apply a very strict definition for what constitutes a "feat". 

And the rest of this post is honestly just bias against Gin&Kin and denial of cannon as to how powerful Kishimoto obviously intends those brothers to be.



Empathy said:


> Tobirama tried to go against his wishes, and immediately got shut down. The only one he said he couldn't control was Hashirama. He has Hashirama's DNA, which was what was credited for his subjugation of the other Edo Hokages.


Stopping Tobirama's movements outside of battle is a different story than being able to control Tobirama to fight, while also still competently defending himself. That's what i'm not sure


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Danzo vs Shisui makes me think that Izanagi can counter the KA.
> but then its all about how inept Obito is on finding out hes been caught, because only then can he really use Izanagi to break free.
> 
> Danzo can also just go for the kill the second obito is caught.
> ...


Can Izanagi even counter Genjutsu? It never countered Sasuke's Genjutsu and Izanami would kind of be pointless as a counter to Izanagi, if Izanagi could counter Genjutsu.


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## Marsala (Mar 13, 2016)

Chapter 3 Sakura
Chapter 2 Konohamaru
Inari
Zabuza's bunny rabbit
The 40-year-old Genin
Pretty much everyone


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## Jad (Mar 13, 2016)

Marsala said:


> Chapter 3 Sakura
> Chapter 2 Konohamaru
> Inari
> Zabuza's bunny rabbit
> ...



Dude. That's the list of who can beat Gai


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> No it doesn't. It just shows that you have a different definition of what a "feat" is. For you the "feat" needs to be in battle. Like we  need to see Indra's P-Susano'o fight in battle for it to count as a "feat", while imo Indra being able to pull out P-Susano'o is the feat, and that alone is enough to place him above Itachi. Same thing w/ Kotoamatsukami, you say Shisui & Danzo himself needs to be able to use it in battle for it to be a "feat", but as far as i'm concerned we saw Koto > Itachi via the Crow and that's the feat, which can be applied to Shisui, because we know he also had the ability to use his Mangekyo. And So on.



Feat is an action performed by a character. No performance = no feat.
Its not my definition, it is what the majority of the BD agrees on.

Indira using PS is not a feat because you need to use feats of other guys using PS to make an argument for him.
The same goes for Dai's 8 gate or Shisui or other characters who didn't perform on panel.

Transfering other characters feats =/= feat
10 years of posting in BD and you still don't know that ? Thats on you my friend.



> Plus, I could easily claim the same of you, that your intentionally trying to shorten the list, by only allowing characters w/ feats, only making it characters that can defeat Itachi 100% of the time, and than on top of it apply a very strict definition for what constitutes a "feat".



No you couldn't. I made this thread just so that people could focus on characters we've seen perform for more quality debates. Characters with no feats don't spark healthy debates.
But you are insisting on overlooking the OP just so you can make the list seem longer.

Its like granting characters full knowledge in a thread where the knowledge is specified as "none." You are something else man. I've never seen a person who rabidly hates a manga character as much as you do.



> And the rest of this post is honestly just bias against Gin&Kin and denial of cannon as to how powerful Kishimoto obviously intends those brothers to be.



Again, in a thread made specifically to debate around feats, you are trying to argue about 2 guys(why not include 7 swordsmen as a group then or Akatsuki like a single entity ?) solely based on portrayal and hype.

I'm going to keep saying this till you admit it and trim down your list. You are just trying to make the list longer, you have no interest for the actual thread.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Feat is an action performed by a character. No performance = no feat.
> Its not my definition, it is what the majority of the BD agrees on.
> 
> Indira using PS is not a feat because you need to use feats of other guys using PS to make an argument for him.
> ...


And I disagree, and I can make the same exact claim that 10 years in the NBD and you still don't know that most people agree activating P-Susano'o would be a feat, and so on.



> No you couldn't. I made this thread just so that people could focus on characters we've seen perform for more quality debates. Characters with no feats don't spark healthy debates.
> But you are insisting on overlooking the OP just so you can make the list seem longer.
> .


I'm not ignoring the opening, you don't see me putting Prime Hanzo, Hamura, White-Fang, Prime-Hiruzen, and so on, on that list  

We have a different interpretation of what constitutes a feat, that's all.



> Again, in a thread made specifically to debate around feats, you are trying to argue about 2 guys(why not include 7 swordsmen as a group then or Akatsuki like a single entity ?) solely based on portrayal and hype.


I said right in my first post, that I acknowledge they are two individuals, but because they are pair and whose fighting style are heavily based on combo play, most people consider them a single unit; so the may or may not be qualified. If they aren't take them off the list. That doesn't however excuse your  biased downplaying off them, which you are now backing away from by attacking this totally different point, which was never in contention from the start.


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## S (Mar 13, 2016)

There are to many to list, beside the god tiers..(obviously) i would say,

Hashirama, Madara VOTE
Nagato
Minato
Tobirama
Gai (over 6 gate is overkill)
Kakashi (1 Ms only)
Sakura (end of series)
Danzo
Hanzo
A
Killerbee



trolling much XD


----------



## Kai (Mar 13, 2016)

The named Ōtsutsuki clan members:
Kaguya
Hagoromo
Hamura
Ashura
Indra
Toneri
Momoshiki
Kinshiki

Naruto
Sasuke
Hashirama
Madara
Obito
Kakashi (DMS)
Gai (8th Gate)
Nagato
Kabuto
Minato
Danzo

Him vs. Tobirama goes either way imo.


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## Platypus (Mar 13, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Shisui can only use _Kotoamatsukami_ every ten years. It's more likely that Danzo fought Shisui on one of the three-thousand-six-hundred-and-forty-nine days (that's how many days are in a decade, according to google []) that Shisui wasn't stronger than him, rather than the one day he is.



Danzo snatched his eye the same day Shisui was going to try mindfuck the Uchiha with Kotoamatsukami though.


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## Empathy (Mar 15, 2016)

That sort of confirms it wasn't used on him though, doesn't it? He either used it already or had to save it to be used for later, but Danzo preempted him; either way he was unable to use it against Danzo.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> If Sasuke never fought Danzo
> Do you guys think Danzo would have taken Tobi down with KA?
> Or would Tobi just have escaped with Izanagi and eventually taken Danzo out?



He has to prepare Izanagi, as he did against Konan. If he prepares it before Danzo attacks him with Koto, then yeah - he can escape.


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## Ramenfighter (Mar 15, 2016)

Dai? Wouldn't his eight gates be extremely weak as he was weaker in the gates, compare to Gai? 

Similar to how Goku's super saiyan 1 at the end of dragonball, is as strong as strong as his saiyan 2 form in Cell saga.


----------



## Ramenfighter (Mar 15, 2016)

Nagato vs Itachi would be an interesting fight.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Apr 12, 2016)

*A warrior beyond Itachi.*

Which fighters are stronger then Itachi?


----------



## Matty (Apr 12, 2016)

Idk how to answer. Sick itachi? A lot. Healthy itachi? Not that many besides god tiers


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## Android (Apr 12, 2016)

kaguya
hagoromo + hamura 
juudara
naruto / adult base / - teen / SM and above
sasuke / adult base / - teen / MS and above
minato
DMS kakashi
might guy / 7th gate and above /
momoshiki
kinshiki
toneri
obito
indra 
asura




EMS madara
fodderama
killer bee
nagato 
tobirama
pain rikudou
kabuto 
danzo 
hanzo
*jiraiya* 
hiruzen prime 
orochimaru + ET


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## Ashi (Apr 12, 2016)

Anyone jiraiya+


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## Zensuki (Apr 12, 2016)

Healthy Itachi is notably above Jiraiya


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## Ashi (Apr 12, 2016)

^ In your fanfics I'm sure


----------



## Android (Apr 12, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Healthy Itachi is notably above Jiraiya



kishimoto begs to differ


----------



## Zensuki (Apr 12, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> ^ In your fanfics I'm sure





cctr9 said:


> kishimoto begs to differ



Jiraiya stays in Oro's league while Itachi long surpassed it while having a possible illness. Its not even close


----------



## Turrin (Apr 12, 2016)

I'm going to talk about which Shinobi are overall superior to him, which means i'm including support capabilities (in no specific order):


Hamura
Tonrei
Kaguya
Hagoromo
Momoshiki
Kinshiki
Naruto 
Sasuke
Indra 
Ashura
Hashirama
Madara
Obito
Kabuto
Nagato
Prime-Hanzo
Danzo
Minato
Tobirama

Debatable:


Prime-Hanzo
Prime-Hiruzen
Tsunade
Sakura (War-Arc)
Orochimaru (PII-Edo-Tensei)
White Fang
Mito
Kushina
Mu
Gengetsu
Jiraiya
Onoki
Killer B
Shisui
Izuna
Shin (original)


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## Android (Apr 12, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Jiraiya stays in Oro's league while Itachi long surpassed it while having a possible illness. Its not even close



 

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Zensuki (Apr 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> *Spoiler*: __



I see no valid argument. Try again, though I doubt much would change in that regard.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Apr 12, 2016)

Im going to say:

God Tiers
Madara/Hashi
Gai/War Arc Kakashi
Minato
Onoki
MS Obito
Pain/Nagato




Jiraiya 





SM Kabuto
Hashi cells Orochimaru
Tobirama
Prime Hiruzen
Killer Bee
Ei
Danzo
MS Sasuke

Thats all I can think of for now.


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## Android (Apr 12, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> I see no valid argument. Try again, though I doubt much would change in that regard.



so you concede , i thought so 
bye bye


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## Zensuki (Apr 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> so you concede , i thought so
> bye bye



Provides no argument. When asked for one, runs away


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## Android (Apr 12, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Provides no argument. When asked for one, runs away



i post manga scans , you posted jackshit ..........keep crying


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## Zensuki (Apr 12, 2016)

None of your posts have manga scans but I don't even have to see to know what panel you will post: an outdated scan thats been replaced by newer developments.


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## Itachі (Apr 12, 2016)

Excluding anyone on/above Madara/Hashirama's level...

SM Kabuto
Nagato
EMS Sasuke
War Arc Sage Mode Naruto
Six Paths of Pain
Minato/Tobirama [I think Itachi can beat them but they're stronger overall imo]


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## Android (Apr 12, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> None of your posts have manga scans but I don't even have to see to know what panel you will post: an outdated scan thats been replaced by newer developments.



is something wrong with your eyes 
i posted the scan already in my second post in this thread 

newer developments indeed 
itachi and Jiraiya statement got only stronger, with time 
Part 1 itachi had both of his most powerfull jutsu, which are his MS techniques. And yet, Kishi made it clear that Jiraiya is stronger than him. .
 part 2. 
jiraiya was fighting pain , itachi was fighting hebi sasuke 
pain said that if jiraiya had full knowledge about him , he would've defeated him 
pain >>>> itachi and it's not even funny 
and then comes the databook , and slaps you itachi fans in the face 

so much development indeed


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## Itachі (Apr 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> is something wrong with your eyes
> i posted the scan already in my second post in this thread
> 
> newer developments indeed
> ...



It wouldn't actually be too hard for Jiraiya to defeat Pain in that situation as long as Pain had little knowledge on him. All Jiraiya would have to do is take out Naraka & Deva at the beginning then defeat the other paths. That's if he used guerrilla tactics such as hiding though, if J-Man was against all six of them at once like Naruto was he would have been stomped. And if you're one for portrayal, we know that Pain Arc Naruto > Jiraiya. 

Jiraiya is > Pain when he's already in Sage Mode, the Six Paths aren't together in a collective unit, Nagato has little knowledge and when the battle takes place in a location like Amegakure which suits J-Man's guerrilla tactics

Pain as a whole is aeons above both Jiraiya and Itachi.


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## Drake (Apr 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> is something wrong with your eyes
> i posted the scan already in my second post in this thread



There's something wrong with whatever link you're using. I remember asking you once for proof that Jiraiya was stronger than Itachi and you replied with an empty spoiler tag, just as you did in this thread.

To answer the question, anyone Nagato-level and above can probably beat Itachi, though some of them can be defeated by Izanami. If Izanami is restricted, then I could see the likes of MS Sasuke also beating him. Definitely wouldn't include Jiraiya in the list of ninja that are stronger than Itachi, though.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Apr 12, 2016)

Drake said:


> There's something wrong with whatever link you're using. I remember asking you once for proof that Jiraiya was stronger than Itachi and you replied with an empty spoiler tag, just as you did in this thread.
> 
> To answer the question, anyone *Nagato-level and above can probably beat Itachi, *though some of them can be defeated by Izanami. If Izanami is restricted, then I could see the likes of MS Sasuke also beating him. Definitely wouldn't include Jiraiya in the list of ninja that are stronger than Itachi, though.



I think you mean anyone Nagato level and above will utterly rape Itachi. Izanami was only a plot device so Itachi could beat a OP SM Kabuto.


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## Drake (Apr 12, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I think you mean anyone Nagato level and above will utterly rape Itachi. Izanami was only a plot device so Itachi could beat a OP SM Kabuto.



He would have a tough time actually catching those Nagato-level shinobi in a loop, but if he did, then he could definitely beat a few of them. It's unlikely, though.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2016)

Kaguya
The Sage
Juubi Jin Madara
Six Paths Naruto
Rinnegan Sasuke
Juubi Jin Obito
Eighth Gate Gai/Double MS Kakashi
Orochi
Kabuto
Edo Madara
Hashi
VotE Madara
Edo Minato
Rinnegan Obito
BSM Naruto
BM Naruto
EMS Sasuke
Nagato
Pain
Danzo

Those are the only ones I see stronger then Itachi


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## cyberbu11y (Apr 12, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Im going to say:
> 
> God Tiers
> Madara/Hashi
> ...


I think SM Naruto can defeat Itachi, or KCM Naruto.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Apr 13, 2016)

cyberbu11y said:


> I think SM Naruto can defeat Itachi, or KCM Naruto.



KCM naruto definitely. SM Naruto? Possibly but you have to remember naruto is a moron and only wins due to plot so I might actually give it to Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 13, 2016)

Hashirama / Madara and beyond.


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## ImSerious (Apr 13, 2016)

God tiers
Kushina
Minato
Gai
BM Naruto
EMS Sauce
Hashi
Madara
Nagato
Pain
SM Kabuto
Obito
Bee
Kakashi
KCM Naruto

off the top of my head.


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Jiraiya stays in Oro's league while Itachi long surpassed it while having a possible illness. Its not even close



Before or after Oro's ET? 
itachi is not even a bug compared to Oro.


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## Zensuki (Apr 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> is something wrong with your eyes
> i posted the scan already in my second post in this thread
> 
> newer developments indeed
> ...



You can't even write coherent sentences. Your spoiler tag shows nothing as well. Jiraiya's hype died down where as Itachi's hype and feats only increased his level till his departure in a latter stage of the manga. Furthermore, Itachi's tactical intelligence is portrayed as almost second to none in the manga.

Also the correct parallel (not that it has much holding here) is Naruto vs Pain and Hebi Sasuke vs Sick Itachi.


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

Anyway, itachi's level is not anything special. He is quite the ordinary fighter. There are tons of Shinobi who are stronger than

Hagoroumo, Hamaru, Kaguya, Indra, Ashura, Toneri, Momoshiki, Kinshiki
Minato, Naruto, Jiraiya, Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara, Shisui, Nagato, B, 
Pain, Kinkaku/Ginkaku, Kabuto, Oro, Sasuke, Obito, The 3rd Raikage, SZ

Arguable on the same level or would defeat him

A the 4th, Onoki, Mu, Gaara, Gengetsu, Tsunade, Mei (assuming she pull of her Mist jutsu)
4rth and 3rd Kazekage, Sakura, Kakashi, Danzo 

and there are probably many others

Edit:

Forgot Gai and Dai are also stronger than him.


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> You can't even write coherent sentences. Your spoiler tag shows nothing as well. *Jiraiya's hype died down* where as Itachi's hype and feats only increased his level till his departure in a latter stage of the manga. Furthermore, Itachi's tactical intelligence is portrayed as almost second to none in the manga.





Is that so?


I bet Obito saying that is better than Hashirama saying that itachi is better than he is
considering Obito >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hashirama. 



> Itachi's tactical intelligence is portrayed as almost second to none in the manga.



More like stupidity seeing how his so called plans always ended up in a massive failure.


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## Android (Apr 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Is that so?
> 
> 
> I bet Obito saying that is better than Hashirama saying that itachi is better than he is
> considering Obito >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hashirama.



ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh snnnap !!!!! i forget about this


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

Itachi is dense. 


must be a Contagious disease


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## Android (Apr 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Itachi is dense.
> 
> 
> must be a Contagious disease



hohohoooooo, oh my god


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## Itachi san88 (Apr 13, 2016)

> Excluding anyone on/above Madara/Hashirama's level...
> 
> SM Kabuto
> Nagato
> ...


I agree.....The difference is that instead of SM Naruto, i put KCM Naruto.


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## LostSelf (Apr 13, 2016)

Gai, of course.

Itachi made the right move when he ran away from Gai's wrath.


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## ImSerious (Apr 13, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Gai, of course.
> 
> Itachi made the right move when he ran away from Gai's wrath.


damn i never i thought about that.

Itachi feared the power of youth the 8th Gate


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## Senjuclan (Apr 13, 2016)

*Warriors Who Fodderstomp Itachi*

The members of that weird alien family 
Indra
Asura
Naruto
Sasuke
Hashirama
Madara
Obito

*Warriors Who Defeat Itachi Consistently*

Nagato
Minato
Tobirama
Kabuto
Kakashi

*Warriors Who Tie / Have Chance to Defeat Itachi*

Sage Mode Jiraiya (no explanation needed)
Kirabi (if he avoids tsukuyomi)
Orochimaru (should be higher but too cocky)
Gai (ties w/ 8th gate, i.e. both die)
Third Raikage (if he avoids tsukuyomi)
Muu (if he plays it smart with splitting)
Gengetsu (if sharingan can't see through his genjutsu, which I doubt)


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## Zensuki (Apr 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Is that so?
> 
> 
> I bet Obito saying that is better than Hashirama saying that itachi is better than he is
> ...



I literally cannot understand what you are saying here 
The only mistake Itachi made was underestimating his brother's love for him once he found out the truth or the consequences of such a circumstance. We are talking in battledome, so with respect to tactics and knowledge in battles Itachi is nearly second to none.

Wisdom of a hokage at age 7, ANBU leader at teens....his hype is near unparalleled.


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## Senjuclan (Apr 13, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> I literally cannot understand what you are saying here
> The only mistake Itachi made was underestimating his brother's love for him once he found out the truth or the consequences of such a circumstance. We are talking in battledome, so with respect to tactics and knowledge in battles Itachi is nearly second to none.
> 
> Wisdom of a hokage at age 7, ANBU leader at teens....his hype is near unparalleled.



wisdom of hokage just means putting the village above oneself and one's clan. It is not such a big deal bro. ANBU leader in teens, that's what Kakashi was too, right?


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

> I literally cannot understand what you are saying here


You were saying Jiraiya's hype died down or something, and I am giving you a panel of hype for him
after Obito's defeat which happened very late in the manga.


> The only mistake Itachi made was underestimating his brother's love for him once he found out the truth. We are talking in battledome, so with respect to tactics and knowledge in battles Itachi is nearly second to none.



"The only" 
I am pretty sure the ones who died in the War wouldn't appreciate itachi making Deidara join the Akatsuki, or him sealing the Bijuu with them, or him getting in Konoha's way so the Akatsuki can get Gaara's Bijuu. 

No, he is not nearly second to none. lol
You could argue that Konan even did a far better job with tactics to get Obito than itachi did. 


> Wisdom of a hokage at age 7,



There is no such thing as "Hokage wisdom" Are you saying that all the Hokages are at the same level of "wisdom"
Or that they need to meet a certain-level of wisdom to be Hokage?

What that statement means is basically itachi, unlike the uchiha clan, was thinking of the village as a whole rather
than focusing on his clan only. That's what connect the Hokage because they have to protect the village as a whole, not only 1 clan. Got it?




> ANBU leader at teens...


Not impressive. The ANBU got shifted so much throughout the manga and they became just as fodders.
Obito destroyed the ANBU and jonin as a teen without a scratch, and as soon as he got the MS. And there
was tens of them. 


> .his hype is near unparalleled.



Lol, no.


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> wisdom of hokage just means putting the village above oneself and one's clan. It is not such a big deal bro. ANBU leader in teens, that's what Kakashi was too, right?



I think it is a big deal since not many would have the mindset that that particularly age, otherwise Hiruzen wouldn't have hyped him for it. Kakashi hyped Itachi for being an ANBU captain at 13, I'd imagine that Kakashi became an ANBU captain at a later age.


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## Senjuclan (Apr 13, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I think it is a big deal since not many would have the mindset that that particularly age, otherwise Hiruzen wouldn't have hyped him for it. Kakashi hyped Itachi for being an ANBU captain at 13, I'd imagine that Kakashi became an ANBU captain at a later age.



The wisdom of hokage is irrelevant to his fighting ability though. Being ANBU captain means nothing when we consider how weak most ANBU were shown to be


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> The wisdom of hokage is irrelevant to his fighting ability though. Being ANBU captain means nothing when we consider how weak most ANBU were shown to be



Of course it's irrelevant in terms of battle prowess, but the hype is still valid. How does it mean nothing? It was a big deal, otherwise Kakashi wouldn't have hyped him for it. Not many other characters would be ANBU captain at 13. The statement was also in Part 1 where being an ANBU captain would have been a big thing since Jonin were still considered to be powerful. Surpassing the rank of Jonin and becoming ANBU captain at 13 is even more impressive. It's like how Madara was taking down adult Senju around that age, not many children could do that.


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

Viz only translated it as "he thought quite like a Hokage" 
and I believe takL translated it as "perspective" 

The "wisdom" is not the most accurate translation. 



> Kakashi hyped Itachi for being an ANBU captain at 13, I'd imagine that Kakashi became an ANBU captain at a later age.


In part 1, ranks did actually mean something. However, in part 2, they did not really mean anything.

And frankly, those ranks do not necessarily prove how powerful/weak someone is. For example, out of K11, only Shikamaru was selected as a chunnin, and yet that was not because he was the strongest out of them or anything.

Where Naruto and the rest who actually won their battles did stay as gennin.


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## Senjuclan (Apr 13, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Of course it's irrelevant in terms of battle prowess, but the hype is still valid. How does it mean nothing?



It was nothing significant bro. He grew up in a unified village where he went to school with kids from other clans and was indoctrinated in the WoF philosophy. Big freaking deal. We are not talking about the guys who thought those things in the war era here 



Itachі said:


> It was a big deal, otherwise Kakashi wouldn't have hyped him for it. Not many other characters would be ANBU captain at 13.



Part I bro. Also, you should know after the war that most characters are fodder



Itachі said:


> The statement was also in Part 1 where being an ANBU captain would have been a big thing since Jonin were still considered to be powerful. Surpassing the rank of Jonin and becoming ANBU captain at 13 is even more impressive. It's like how Madara was taking down adult Senju around that age, not many children could do that.



Thanks for making my point. It was part I. Are you also going to tell me that Haku is extremely fast because Sasuke said so in Part 1?


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Viz only translated it as "he thought quite like a Hokage"
> and I believe takL translated it as "perspective"
> 
> The "wisdom" is not the most accurate translation.
> ...



Pretty much the same thing though, since it's referring the values of a Hokage rather than intelligence in general.

Yes, but the hype was in Part 1, so it does mean something. It means the author wants to hype a certain character. It's like when Tobirama was hyped for using a decent sized Suiton without a water source when in Part 2 everybody could do it.

Shikamaru already passed his exams but he was selected for his leadership. Being an ANBU Captain would require both strength and leadership. Since to become an ANBU Captain you'd have to become a Jonin before that, and that requires strength too.


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## Finalbeta (Apr 13, 2016)

Beyond Itachi?
A shit ton of characters


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> It was nothing significant bro. He grew up in a unified village where he went to school with kids from other clans and was indoctrinated in the WoF philosophy. Big freaking deal. We are not talking about the guys who thought those things in the war era here
> 
> Part I bro. Also, you should know after the war that most characters are fodder
> 
> Thanks for making my point. It was part I. Are you also going to tell me that Haku is extremely fast because Sasuke said so in Part 1?



Then why would Hiruzen praise him for it? Hiruzen singled him out and said that he was interested in the history of his ancestors and shit like that. By doing that he differentiated Itachi from the rest, insinuating that Itachi's mindset was significant. If it wasn't then there would be no reason to point it out. 

Yes, but we can scale. We know that being an ANBU in Part 1 was a big deal and that the author wanted us to think it was a big deal. Regardless of whether ANBU are fodder, how many 13 year old kids would make Jonin, let alone ANBU captain? ANBU are fodder by Part 2 sure, but the fact that Itachi made it there at such a young age is meant to tell us something. Compare Itachi to prodigies at 13 like Sasuke, Neji and Rock Lee. It's not just that he became an ANBU Captain, it's the age at which he accomplished it.


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## Senjuclan (Apr 13, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Then why would Hiruzen praise him for it? Hiruzen singled him out and said that he was interested in the history of his ancestors and shit like that. By doing that he differentiated Itachi from the rest, insinuating that Itachi's mindset was significant. If it wasn't then there would be no reason to point it out.



Because he was not an insular moron like the rest of the Uchiha not because he was anything special



Itachі said:


> Yes, but we can scale. We know that being an ANBU in Part 1 was a big deal and that the author wanted us to think it was a big deal. Regardless of whether ANBU are fodder, how many 13 year old kids would make Jonin, let alone ANBU captain? ANBU are fodder by Part 2 sure, but the fact that Itachi made it there at such a young age is meant to tell us something. Compare Itachi to prodigies at 13 like Sasuke, Neji and Rock Lee. It's not just that he became an ANBU Captain, it's the age at which he accomplished it.



Sure we can scale. Here is how it works. Most ANBU are fodder. Itachi was ANBU captain, therefore Itachi was a standout amongst fodder


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Because he was not an insular moron like the rest of the Uchiha not because he was anything special



There's a difference between considering the lives of others that aren't your own and _thinking like a Hokage_.



> Sure we can scale. Here is how it works. Most ANBU are fodder. Itachi was ANBU captain, therefore Itachi was a standout amongst fodder



But Itachi was a prodigy amongst the Uchiha so he was a prodigy among prodigies. 

Regardless, the point is that it's meant to hype Itachi and show us how powerful he was. I don't see how it's even irrelevant anyway since again, Itachi accomplished that feat at the age of 13. If he became an ANBU Captain at 17 or something it would still be impressive by Part 1 standards, not many characters have been shown to have such power at the age of 13. As I said before, you have prodigies like Sasuke, Neji and Rock Lee who weren't even Jonin at Itachi's age. Forget becoming an ANBU captain. Not to mention that Itachi finished the academy earlier than any of them as well.


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Pretty much the same thing though, since it's referring the values of a Hokage rather than intelligence in general.
> 
> Yes, but the hype was in Part 1, so it does mean something. It means the author wants to hype a certain character. It's like when Tobirama was hyped for using a decent sized Suiton without a water source when in Part 2 everybody could do it.
> 
> Shikamaru already passed his exams but he was selected for his leadership. Being an ANBU Captain would require both strength and leadership. Since to become an ANBU Captain you'd have to become a Jonin before that, and that requires strength too.



- That point was to distinguash itachi from his OWN CLAN. He was the only one with Shisui who were not think only about the clan. What do you want Hiruzen to say? 

"Oh, he thought exactly like that fodder from the Inuzuka clan"?? 

At the end of the day, only his clans had agenda regarding their own good, so that's why the point was made.



> t's like when Tobirama was hyped for using a decent sized Suiton without a water source when in Part 2 everybody could do it.


Indeed, and that's why that Tobirama hype is discredited now. 

- No he did not. He withdraw against Temari, so he teachincally lost the battle. 
So, he was not on a higher level than them because of his power.

- ANBU are selcted based on their assassination skills. And for the most part, they only showed how much they sucked, so it's hard to take that as much of a big deal to be honest.


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - That point was to distinguash itachi from his OWN CLAN. He was the only one with Shisui who were not think only about the clan. What do you want Hiruzen to say?
> 
> "Oh, he thought exactly like that fodder from the Inuzuka clan"??
> 
> At the end of the day, only his clans had agenda regarding their own good, so that's why the point was made.



Like what I said to Senjuclan, there's a difference between simply considering the lives of others and actually stepping into a Hokage's shoes and seeing how one would look at things. Just like there's a difference between not being a Genin and being a Jonin. They aren't the same.



> Indeed, and that's why that Tobirama hype is discredited now.



I disagree, the line was clearly about hyping up Tobirama. It was relevant in Part 1 and going by power inflation he'd receive some similar hype in Part 2. If Hiruzen in Part 1 was revived and started living again in Part 2 he wouldn't be the same as he was then, he'd adapt. Same way Tobirama adapted and got good hype during the War Arc in Part 2.



> - No he did not. He withdraw against Temari, so he teachincally lost the battle.
> So, he was not on a higher level than them because of his power.



But he beat Temari, regardless of technicalities, he had the strength to become a Chunin.



> ANBU are selcted based on their assassination skills. And for the most part, they only showed how much they sucked, so it's hard to take that as much of a big deal to be honest.



But you still need to become a Jonin, and that's a big deal at the age of 13.


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## Platypus (Apr 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Itachi is dense.
> 
> 
> must be a Contagious disease



Can't tell for sure if trolling or not, due to your and your dupe's spam and misuse of emotes, but in what way does
*"* _Heh... You seem to be denser than Itachi._ *"*

or

*"* _Heh… It seems that you are duller than Itachi…_ *"*​imply that Zetsu's saying that Itachi is dense or dull? Maybe if you throw the word 'even' into the mix, which isn't the case here.


*Edit:* At least use your main account to neg people, more rep power and all that 

​


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## Senjuclan (Apr 13, 2016)

Itachі said:


> There's a difference between considering the lives of others that aren't your own and _thinking like a Hokage_.



No ... That's all thinking like a hokage is. That is why Hiruzen was selected as hokage and not Danzou



Itachі said:


> But Itachi was a prodigy amongst the Uchiha so he was a prodigy among prodigies.
> 
> Regardless, the point is that it's meant to hype Itachi and show us how powerful he was. I don't see how it's even irrelevant anyway since again, Itachi accomplished that feat at the age of 13. If he became an ANBU Captain at 17 or something it would still be impressive by Part 1 standards, not many characters have been shown to have such power at the age of 13. As I said before, you have prodigies like Sasuke, Neji and Rock Lee who weren't even Jonin at Itachi's age. Forget becoming an ANBU captain. Not to mention that Itachi finished the academy earlier than any of them as well.



Are you prepared to say that anyone who finished the academy earlier than ITachi was a bigger prodigy?


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> No ... That's all thinking like a hokage is. That is why Hiruzen was selected as hokage and not Danzou



Then every sensible person could think like a Hokage, in your mind. Kushina couldn't understand why Minato even did what he did right away.  



There are many things to being a Hokage, sacrifice in the case of Minato/Hiruzen and killing people you may not want to kill or making decisions for the greater good, in the case of Hashirama (and Hiruzen since he tried to kill Oro I guess).

Where does it say that? Hiruzen was a prodigy and Danzo admitted being behind him every step of the way, Danzo had nowhere near the hype that Hiruzen had. 



> Are you prepared to say that anyone who finished the academy earlier than ITachi was a bigger prodigy?



It depends really, if they were also as skilled or more skilled than Itachi in general then yeah.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

Minato 

Simply based on how he fights . He already high kage tier with no stamina consequence . Itachi can't fight at those levels without issues 

Yes itachi got more hax techniques this is true 

But how many ninja in the manga can't just be killed with a kunai any ways ?

Would rather be minato fighting any higher tier or a bijuu than being itachi


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Minato
> 
> Simply based on how he fights . He already high kage tier with no stamina consequence . Itachi can't fight at those levels without issues
> 
> ...



I agree with all of your points except the last one, Itachi is much more suited to fighting Biju because of his Mangekyo.


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## Senjuclan (Apr 13, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Then every sensible person could think like a Hokage, in your mind.



Almost all shinobi do. All the fodders who died fighting the kyuubi had hokage wisdom



Itachі said:


> Kushina couldn't understand why Minato even did what he did right away.



Too bad for her



Itachі said:


> There are many things to being a Hokage, sacrifice in the case of Minato/Hiruzen and killing people you may not want to kill or making decisions for the greater good, in the case of Hashirama (and Hiruzen since he tried to kill Oro I guess).



All of that = putting the village above self. There is no more to it than that



Itachі said:


> Where does it say that? Hiruzen was a prodigy and Danzo admitted being behind him every step of the way, Danzo had nowhere near the hype that Hiruzen had.



Hiruzen was selected because he inherited the WoF according to the databook. WoF = putting village over self. Danzou did not have the WoF and poo-pooed it



Itachі said:


> It depends really, if they were also as skilled or more skilled than Itachi in general then yeah.



tsunade and Jiraiya graduated at 6. Both of them are as skilled if not more skilled than Itachi. So, are they more prodigious?


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