# 1 Squad of Space Marine Terminators vs. Narutoverse



## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

Bloodlust on


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

Terminator armor is built to withstand operating inside a active plasma reactor, there is almost nothing that Narutoverse will be able to do that's gonna hurt them


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## Watchman (Sep 12, 2009)

What armament do the Terminators have? How many Assault Cannons, Cyclone Missile Launchers, etc.?

And a full squad is 10, right? *does not have the latest Space Marine Codex*


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## Rice Ball (Sep 12, 2009)

I only know via the rulebooks of the game.

1 every 5 carry a heavy weapon.


I'd imagine the Narutoverse would win, enough landscape altering jutsu will take them down in the evn (or i should say trap them)


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

Watchman said:


> What armament do the Terminators have? How many Assault Cannons, Cyclone Missile Launchers, etc.?
> 
> And a full squad is 10, right? *does not have the latest Space Marine Codex*



10 Terminator units, 3 of them are equipped with shoulder-mounted cyclone launchers and powerfists, 2 use the shield-and-hammer combo, 1 of them uses a chainfist and a heavy flamer, 2 use assault cannons, 1 uses lightning claws and the last one is a chaplain wielding a Crozus Arcanum(I can't remember right now if Chaplains are allowed Terminator honors though). 

If that's not enough add in a Land Raider


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## noobthemusical (Sep 12, 2009)

FRS and Shinra Tensai FTW.


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## skiboydoggy (Sep 12, 2009)

noobthemusical said:


> FRS and Shinra Tensai FTW.


FRS scratches their armour. Shinra Tensei sends them flying and they get back up.


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> FRS scratches their armour. Shinra Tensei sends them flying and they get back up.



Would Shinra Tensei even be powerful enough to push them back?


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## Slice (Sep 12, 2009)

battlerek said:


> 10 Terminator units, 3 of them are equipped with shoulder-mounted cyclone launchers and powerfists, 2 use the shield-and-hammer combo, 1 of them uses a chainfist and a heavy flamer, 2 use assault cannons, 1 uses lightning claws and the last one is a chaplain wielding a Crozus Arcanum(I can't remember right now if Chaplains are allowed Terminator honors though).
> 
> If that's not enough add in a Land Raider



Talk about a strange combination, but even if you include all this, unfortunately this:



Rice Ball said:


> I'd imagine the Narutoverse would win, enough *landscape altering jutsu* will take them down in the evn (or i should say *trap them*)



will happen


Make it Deathwing Terminator and give them teleportation devices and they might win. But as always magic / jutsu > technology


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

Slice said:


> Talk about a strange combination, but even if you include all this, unfortunately this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've always been one for non-standard combos 

Aren't all Terminators equipped with teleporters? And whatever landscape-altering justu thrown at them can be dug away eventually by the hammer-wielders and/or krak grenades. And if that's not enough there's always the land raider.


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

battlerek said:


> Would Shinra Tensei even be powerful enough to push them back?



I would think so, it sent gama & co flying


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## skiboydoggy (Sep 12, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> Kamui     .


Kakashi runs out of chakra. Only one is dead at best.


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## The Space Cowboy (Sep 12, 2009)

...The terminators eventually run out of ammunition


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

The Space Cowboy said:


> ...The terminators eventually run out of ammunition



Which is why half of them wield melee weapons


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## The World (Sep 12, 2009)

Nagato uses Gedo Mazou when they run out of bullets , GG Space Marines.


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Nagato uses Gedo Mazou when they run out of bullets , GG Space Marines.



About half of the Terminators are wielding Melee weapons


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

battlerek said:


> About half of the Terminators are wielding Melee weapons



Doesn't all of the termies have powerfists?


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## The World (Sep 12, 2009)

battlerek said:


> About half of the Terminators are wielding Melee weapons




That's why I said when they run out of bullets. 

And even then he doesn't have too, he can just Shinra Tensei them.

Oro had those too, remember ?

Or use Gedo Mazo

Oro had those too, remember ?
Oro had those too, remember ?

Long range soul suck FTW.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 12, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> Doesn't all of the termies have powerfists?



Some of them equip it I think

I think chainfists are standard equipment for them also


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> That's why I said when they run out of bullets.
> 
> And even then he doesn't have too, he can just Shinra Tensei them.
> 
> ...



You are aware that the standard ammunition of a Space Marine's basic sidearm packs as much punch as a rocket and can be fired at the same rate as machine guns are, right?


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## The World (Sep 12, 2009)

Shinra Tensei is an invisible force, it matters not.


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## Klue (Sep 12, 2009)

I'd call Nagato, he'll unleash Chibaku Tensei - Terminator, Terminated.


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

Klue said:


> I'd call Nagato, he'll unleash Chibaku Tensei - Terminator, Terminated.



Terminator armor is strong enough to protect its wearer from being stepped on by 200-foot high battle cathedrals. 

@Roxxas- Shinra Tensei has a 5 second cooldown, bolters do not.


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## Grrblt (Sep 12, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Kakashi runs out of chakra. Only one is dead at best.



Kakashi already used it three times in one go against Deidara.


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> Kakashi already used it three times in one go against Deidara.



How large was the aoe per hit?


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

battlerek said:


> Terminator armor is strong enough to protect its wearer from being stepped on by 200-foot high battle cathedrals.
> 
> @Roxxas- Shinra Tensei has a 5 second cooldown, bolters do not.



Not to mention that it was built to allow its users to essentially walk on the surface of the sun


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> Not to mention that it was built to allow its users to essentially walk on the surface of the sun



Now how hot was Amaterasu again?


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## skiboydoggy (Sep 12, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> Kakashi already used it three times in one go against Deidara.


I'm pretty sure Space Marines can walk around missing large chunks of their body. Kakashi uses it three times and kills one or vaguely injured three.


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## Storminator Steel (Sep 12, 2009)

As if they'd survive the attack Nagato used to anhilate Konoha, we all no bolters couldn't accomplish that, unless this is current Narutoverse where Nagoto is dead.


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> I'm pretty sure Space Marines can walk around missing large chunks of their body. Kakashi uses it three times and kills one or vaguely injured three.



It depends which chunks of the body are ripped out. Obviously if the head gets hit that one's dead, but you'll just encourage the survivors to rip you a new one for the Emprah.


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## Slice (Sep 12, 2009)

battlerek said:


> Terminator armor is strong enough to protect its wearer from being stepped on by 200-foot high battle cathedrals.
> 
> @Roxxas- Shinra Tensei has a 5 second cooldown, bolters do not.



Thats a bit much hype here, these guys go down on a regular basis to Imperial flashlights Lasguns 

But even fluff wise i doubt a terminator surviving beeing stepped on by a emperor class titan.


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

Storminator Steel said:


> As if they'd survive the attack Nagato used to anhilate Konoha, unless this is current Narutoverse where Nagoto is dead.



It's not like they couldn't shoot him out of the air, being hundereds of year old supersoldiers inside some of the finest power armor crafted in a civilization that spans the galaxy

and that armor comes equipped with teleportation devices(I think)



Slice said:


> Thats a bit much hype here, these guys go down on a regular basis to Imperial flashlights Lasguns
> 
> But even fluff wise i doubt a terminator surviving beeing stepped on by a emperor class titan.



First of all, since when do Space marine terminators fight imperial guardsmen? Second of all, being stepped on by a titan and surviving happened(though it was more of the ground being weaker than a terminator thing).


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## Slice (Sep 12, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> First of all, since when do Space marine terminators fight imperial guardsmen? Second of all, being stepped on by a titan and surviving happened(though it was more of the ground being weaker than a terminator thing).



Chaos renegades are made up of billions of former guardsmen who still use their original weaponry.

Also take an Imperial Guard army and go to any local gaming store, i bet 50 bucks that 3 out of 5 people there will throw Marines against you so the chance is pretty good that Termies will go down to Lasgun fire


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## Zoidberg (Sep 12, 2009)

Slice said:


> Thats a bit much hype here, these guys go down on a regular basis to Imperial flashlights Lasguns
> 
> But even fluff wise i doubt a terminator surviving beeing stepped on by a emperor class titan.



Well we are using the fluff versions here, and you need hundreds of lasgun shots to break through Terminator armor.

Warlord class then.


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

Slice said:


> Chaos renegades are made up of billions of former guardsmen who still use their original weaponry.


Oh yes, my bad


Slice said:


> Also take an Imperial Guard army and go to any local gaming store, i bet 50 bucks that 3 out of 5 people there will throw Marines against you so the chance is pretty good that Termies will go down to Lasgun fire


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 12, 2009)

Terminators are usually equipped with enough ammunition to kill thousands of Orcs. They're hardly going to be running out of ammunition anytime soon. And no ninja is going to tank a bolter round.


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 12, 2009)

As usual, guns > Narutoverse.

Especially when that gun happens to be a .50 Caliber Rapid Fire Grenade Launcher launched from the steady aim of a centuries long veteran supersoldier equipped in some of the finest power armor in the galaxy that's durable enough to be stepped on by a titan and walk around in a active plasma generator.

Besides, Pain needs 5 seconds every time he does that deflecting jutsu. 5 second cooldown < Assault Cannon.

In fact, everything in Narutoverse < Assault Cannon.  Let alone all the rest of the stuff they have.

GG Narutoverse.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

*Oh yeah, and Terminators do have teleportation devices. They require support from a orbiting ship in order to fully function however.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 12, 2009)

Are people resorting to using game mechanics to downplay 40K here?


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## Platinum (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm just getting into warhammer 40K so I do not know their full power but would they be able to tank a bijuu chakra blast or do they have resistance to soul sucking?


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

Platinum said:


> I'm just getting into warhammer 40K so I do not know their full power but would they be able to tank a bijuu chakra blast or do they have resistance to soul sucking?



Doesn't he have to make contact with a person's flesh? I don't know if he could just rip them out by touching their PAs.


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## Platinum (Sep 12, 2009)

Dante10 said:


> Doesn't he have to make contact with a person's flesh? I don't know if he could just rip them out by touching their PAs.



I'm talking about Gedo Mazo. The soul sucking dragon thing that he can use.


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

Platinum said:


> I'm talking about Gedo Mazo. The soul sucking dragon thing that he can use.



They could just shoot him before he rips their souls, but otherwise they would'nt stand much of a chance against soul-sucking


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Sep 12, 2009)

Any Librarians in the Marine Unit?


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

Kamen Rider Ryoma said:


> Any Librarians in the Marine Unit?



Nope, just a chaplain


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 12, 2009)

Like stated before, uh, why aren't they merely shooting him before he attempts the soul sucking again?

Autocannon for the win.

Not to mention the storm bolters. 

Not to mention the direct teleportation plus thunderhammer and Crozius Arcanum to the face.

Jutsus be damned. The Autocannon terminators alone should be able to solo'd narutoverse, let alone with support.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## Endless Mike (Sep 12, 2009)

I am not an expert on the chaplains but do they have psyker powers?


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## The World (Sep 12, 2009)

TheHolyDarkness said:


> Like stated before, uh, why aren't they merely shooting him before he attempts the soul sucking again?
> 
> Autocannon for the win.
> 
> ...



Um, like stated before why would they be shooting him when a whole verse is gangbanging their asses?

Even fodder in Narutoverse can alter the landscape. A simple multiple earth wall jutsu will protect him, while his ethereal dragon sucks all their souls out.


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Um, like stated before why would they be shooting him when a whole verse is gangbanging their asses?
> 
> Even fodder in Narutoverse can alter the landscape. A simple multiple earth wall jutsu will protect him, while his ethereal dragon sucks all their souls out.



are you implying that a fucking rock wall will offer more than a split second of protection against a fucking terminator squad armed with anything more than their raging boners for the emprah


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 12, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> I am not an expert on the chaplains but do they have psyker powers?



Chaplains are particularly tough and stubborn bastards.  Due to their connections with the ecclesiarchy, they come equipped with a rosarius. It's basically a personal shield generator so powerful that it casually stops *plasma fire* in its tracks.

Given that our rosarius fielded Chaplain is also in a terminator suit, teleporting around with his Crozius Arcanum, I don't see what these ninjas and their little kunai and jutsus are going to do to this particular individual. Hell, he alone could arguably solo the Narutoverse.

By the way, bolters can tear up light vehicles. Vehicles made of plasteel, adamantium, and/or exotic warp based materials. What the hell are "earth shields" going to do?  They don't even have to shoot it. For crying out loud, space marines run through **cement**walls in their "normal" power armor (EDIT: excuse me, I meant to say **rockrete**, which is better than cement, let alone generic "earth"). So what the hell they going to do when that terminator teleports right up to it and flicks it down with his pinky? Or better yet merely teleports past it to a better tactical position? Such as right in front of their faces?

I don't recall the OP stating that they fight the entire Narutoverse at once. I'm under the impression that they land in the Narutoverse and go on a campaign to conquer it. Irregardless, they all die. Each and every Emperor-forsaken one of them. You may as well drop it.

None shall be able to dodge these super-sonic bolter rounds one shoting them. Buushins will just delay the inevitable, giving the smart ones a chance to run away and become hermits for the rest of their life. The Narutoverse will now belong to the Emperor. 

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

*Haven't these 40k vs. Naruto murderstomp threads been done before?


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## The World (Sep 12, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> are you implying that a fucking rock wall will offer more than a split second of protection against a fucking terminator squad armed with anything more than their raging boners for the emprah



That's why I said multiple rock walls. And fodder can even make them as high as skyscrapers.


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

Ummmm Teleporters..........


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## The World (Sep 12, 2009)

Ummmm thousands of other ninja to distract....


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

Distract against Assault cannon fire. .....


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## Quelsatron (Sep 12, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> That's why I said multiple rock walls. And fodder can even make them as high as skyscrapers.



I don't recall fodder doing a feat on this magnitude

Irregardless, we're talking about people who's standard firearm fire tankkilling RPGs at full auto x2, and that's not accounting for heavy weapons



> Ummmm thousands of other ninja to distract....


asscan termie turns 180 degrees while firing, bye bye fodder


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## The World (Sep 12, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> I don't recall fodder doing a feat on this magnitude
> 
> Irregardless, we're talking about people who's standard firearm fire tankkilling RPGs at full auto x2, and that's not accounting for heavy weapons
> 
> ...



lightning

Not exactly skyscraper, but very large buildings. I also remember some rock ninja's doing the same thing during Kakashi Gaiden when Yondaime was fighting them too. There's also the Yamato thing.....


Look if you throw in some Necrons, Dark Eldars and Tau then this would be rape.


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 12, 2009)

Kamen Rider Ryoma said:


> Any Librarians in the Marine Unit?



And you know what? I'm glad there are no librarians in this matchup. This is horrid rape enough as is, let alone having some Theta+ psyker (who incidentally also happens to be a supersoldier) mindraping all these poor smucks as they're being shot.



Roxxas said:


> Look if you throw in some Necrons, Dark Eldars and Tau then this would be rape.



lol wut? 

No. This is already rape. Right now.  Throwing other factions of 40k into this would require a new term in describing a babyshake.

But for now, the term "babyshake" is adequate enough already.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 12, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> lightning
> 
> Not exactly skyscraper, but very large buildings. I also remember some rock ninja's doing the same thing during Kakashi Gaiden when Yondaime was fighting them too. There's also the Yamato thing.....
> 
> ...



 

"Throw in some Necrons" lmao. One Necron would almost wreck the whole verse. Some lmao.


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## Grrblt (Sep 12, 2009)

battlerek said:


> How large was the aoe per hit?



Varies greatly, largest one took out this explosion


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

So the Narutoverse is just gonna use stall tactics now?


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## The World (Sep 12, 2009)

It's the only way they win.


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 12, 2009)

Tanthius would not stand for this


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 12, 2009)

Dante10 said:


> So the Narutoverse is just gonna use stall tactics now?



The smart ones who recongize that they're in a FUBAR situation will do it to survive I suppose. The question isn't really who can defeat the Terminators (none of them can), but who can survive this massacre of righteous Autocannon and Storm Bolter fire that's being supported by teleporting 8-foot (or are they more like 10 foot in termie armor?) tall monsters with hammers who keep smashing people's faces in with hulk-like strength?

The smart ones better discover their newfound faith in the Emperor damn quick. For the Narutoverse henceforth shall serve in His name. All heathens will die.

And there's not a damn thing they can do about it.
~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

Using the Marvel Strength scale where would a average Termie be?


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 12, 2009)

Dante10 said:


> Using the Marvel Strength scale where would a average Termie be?



I have no idea. I used the term "hulk like strength" as hyperbole, for whatever their strength classification is, its well beyond that of the Narutoverse.

Lets see, given that they regularly drop out of the sky in flaming pods and hit the earth without slowing down, and have been known to hike literally for *weeks* on end without ever feeling winded, what would that make you in comic terms? 

Who cares? For the purposes of this thread, all I'm saying is that with every blow, pieces of ninja are going to be violently thrust around in this bloody massacre. No amount of medical jutsu is fixing those he get hit by those hammers, powerfists, chainfist, power claws, or the mighty Crozius Arcanum. Every blow = instant death. Not stunned, not winded, not unconscious. Dead. Just friggin dead.  Head snapped off of the neck dead.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

That's just durability feats for the armor and running for weeks could put them at a metahuman level of endurance.


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 12, 2009)

Dante10 said:


> That's just durability feats for the armor and running for weeks could put them at a metahuman level of endurance.





			
				Lexicanum said:
			
		

> Catalepsean Node
> 
> Phase 6: Implanted into the back of the brain, this pea-sized organ influences the circadian rhythms of sleep and the body's response to sleep deprivation. If deprived of sleep, the catalepsean node cuts in. The node allows a Marine to sleep and remain awake at the same time by switching off areas of his brain sequentially. This process cannot replace sleep entirely, but increases the Marines survivability by allowing perception of the environment while resting2. This means that a Space Marine needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day, and can potentially go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all.



When I said they can run around for weeks, I meant it quite literally. I shouldn't have to quote the secondary heart and third lung that goes into that equation.

Yeah, endurance wise, these guys are already badass motherf***ers even with out the bonus of their armor alright. Would defiantly be described as metahuman by Marvel's standards. Not quite clear where they are strength wise, so I'll harbor a guess and say that they'd have to be as strong if not stronger than Iron Man at the very least. Maybe Colossus? Maybe, but I'm guessing somewhere above any strength feat Iron Man can demonstrate.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

Ironman is officially ranked at class 80 I believe... but is really class 100+


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 12, 2009)

The Terminators come to the Sand Village and start wreckin its shit, and Gaara sinks them into the desert. Enjoy hibernation followed by death.



rawrawraw said:


> "Throw in some Necrons" lmao. One Necron would almost wreck the whole verse. Some lmao.



How so? Only if they regenerate from every single attack, and we know that's not the case. They do eventually die.


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 12, 2009)

Dante10 said:


> Ironman is officially ranked at class 80 I believe... but is really class 100+



Class 80+ Tons? Makes sense to me. That puts them high enough to push tanks around, which they can and will do.

If Master Chief goes around moving the tanks of his verse (I recall the scorpion as 66 tons), then Space Marines who have better augmentations than his, using armor as advanced as the Terminator suite will defiantly perform not only similarly, but significantly better. 

Yeah, a guestimate of at least 80+ Tons is making sense to me.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> The Terminators come to the Sand Village and start wreckin its shit, and Gaara sinks them into the desert. Enjoy hibernation followed by death.
> 
> 
> 
> How so? Only if they regenerate from every single attack, and we know that's not the case. They do eventually die.



Teleporters?



> Class 80+ Tons? Makes sense to me. That puts them high enough to push tanks around, which they can and will do.
> 
> If Master Chief goes around moving the tanks of his verse (I recall the scorpion as 66 tons), then Space Marines who have better augmentations than his, using armor as advanced as the Terminator suite will defiantly perform not only similarly, but significantly better.
> 
> Yeah, a guestimate of at least 80+ Tons is making sense to me.



A "average" SM BB would wreck MC so it makes sense.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 12, 2009)

TheHolyDarkness said:


> Class 80+ Tons? Makes sense to me. That puts them high enough to push tanks around, which they can and will do.
> 
> If Master Chief goes around moving the tanks of his verse (I recall the scorpion as 66 tons), then Space Marines who have better augmentations than his, using armor as advanced as the Terminator suite will defiantly perform not only similarly, but significantly better.
> 
> ...


That's a game mechanic. Do we also assume he can take falls from any altitude so long he doesn't spontaneously die in mid air? Without armor, a Space Marine can lift 75 kilograms easy. In armor, there is evidence of them flipping a humvee which is likely only 3-4 tons. That's a multiplier of 53 in the armor. You're suggesting a multiplier of a 1000+ with your class 80 estimate.


Dante10 said:


> Teleporters?


They'll run out of energy eventually. And Gaara would have already done Desert Funeral on them. Their weapons would be jacked up so no more range.


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

This is Gaara after the bjuu removal right? Does he have any feats on that level?


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## The World (Sep 12, 2009)

Why would you use a featless Gaara?


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## Dante10 (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm thinking it's current Naurtoverse.... Where dead characters are dead.... If current Gaara has no feats...... then...... guess what


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 13, 2009)

I wasn't using current, I was using the ones with feats.


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## The World (Sep 13, 2009)

By you I meant anyone, and by anyone I meant Dante.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 13, 2009)

HolyDarkness, I like how you yourself mentioned that the teleporters need an orbiting support ship to function, then proceed to counter all Narutoverse defenses with "WELL THEY JUST TELEPORT AROUND IT LULS."

If you meant that the teleporters work without support, but with reduced range, then what's the furthest they've ever teleported unaided? And what's the accuracy like unaided? Are the teleporters prone to misfiring and making you reappear inside a rock? 

Also, I'm assuming the Autocannon is the deadliest long range weapon they carry, and the Thunderhammer is the deadliest melee weapon. What are their best destruction feats? What is the effective range of an Autocannon? 

And about that terminator that got stepped on by a Titan: what type of ground was he on? If he was in a spongy, marshy swamp where the ground is soft, then it's really not a big feat, given that the armor just has to be stronger than mud in order for the marine to live.

What are the marine's reaction-times like? Can they track and accurately bring down multiple targets moving at super-sonic speeds? Can they hit foes like these in close combat?

Can the terminators swim? If they were submerged in a lake, could they get out, given that the bottom is probably muddy and they're heavy armor would sink into the mud?

What kind of blast does it take to puncture terminator armor? 

Are all of them wearing full Terminator gear, or do we have a brave captain without his helmet on, like classic Warhammer captains are?


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## Endless Mike (Sep 13, 2009)

Just FYI Iron Man has feats in the many millions of tons range


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 13, 2009)

The Master Chief can move a tank. Otherwise it wouldn't be a "game mechanic" in the first place. Not saying he lifts it above his head. If he can do it, then a Battle Brother who'd tear him to shreds could do it better.

?

How can there not be a ship orbiting over them if they're on a Narutoverse conquest campaign? In fact, considering that its kinda a space marines thing to drop in from space from their "space ships",  how can there ever not be a ship involved with Terminators?  Unless the OP says so, the terminators are not having that system handicapped by a petty logistical detail, just as ammunition isn't being considered here.

And yes, teleportation basically works for the lulz when we are talking combat distances. The risks of something loopy happening in warp travel is proportional to the range you are attempting to go. There is no technical "range" to teleporting. In theory, a personal teleporter could take you to the other side of the galaxy, but that would be like saying "in theory, I could swim across the Pacific Ocean", so they don't do it that way.  

Furthest I read as far as personal teleporter use was concerned, was when a squad of Warp Spiders jumped themselves and a Farseer from their Craftworld direct to a planet they were orbiting since Chaos was afoot down there and speed was of the essence. It was a stated as a jump of about the equivalent distance of Earth from its moon, and no, the warp spiders weren't enthusiastic about going that far, and by all normal circumstances would have preferred a shuttle, but they knew it was possible and they all came out in one piece.

So there's your explanation on 40k teleportation technology for you. In combat distance, they could be teleporting around for the lulz while in Konoha, then maybe decide to risk direct teleportion to sand village, jack crap up there, and on the return teleport to Konoha, maybe one of them could be lost.  Maybe.

And yes, they indeed come with internal safety devices that prevent crap like someone teleporting into a rock.  So by all means no, don't expect incidents to occur as far where visual ranges are concerned.  The odds of that occurring are far too low to be seriously considered a factor.

?

Oh yeah. The best destructive feats of a thunderhammer includes tank killing and greater daemon slaying.  Tanks made of damn adamantium, and warp fueled beasts so powerful, they required significant taint and hundreds of human sacrifices to manifest themselves in a form worthy of containing their power.

As for the assault cannon....wait do I really have to give you a feat of the assault cannon in order to convince you that it'll outrange and penetrate ninjas in flimsy flak jackets?  All these weapons will more than suffice in the purpose of overkilling these ninjas. That's all that has to be said.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 13, 2009)

TheHolyDarkness said:


> How can there not be a ship orbiting over them if they're on a Narutoverse conquest campaign? In fact, considering that its kinda a space marines thing to drop in from space from their "space ships",  how can there ever not be a ship involved with Terminators?  Unless the OP says so, the terminators are not having that system handicapped by a petty logistical detail, just as ammunition isn't being considered here.
> 
> And yes, teleportation basically works for the lulz when we are talking combat distances. The risks of something loopy happening in warp travel is proportional to the range you are attempting to go. There is no technical "range" to teleporting. In theory, a personal teleporter could take you to the other side of the galaxy, but that would be like saying "in theory, I could swim across the Pacific Ocean", so they don't do it that way.
> 
> ...



The OP never specified that you have orbital support. There doesn't have to be a ship in orbit. The ship could have launched the drop pod and jumped out, away to another system.

Now, how well does the personal teleporter system work without any support? If it still works, has there ever been an established range on it without a support ship?

Also, the feat you gave regarding the warp spiders shouldn't really apply, since those are Eldar, and Eldar are much more adept at manipulating the warp than the Imperium and have much more advanced technology. Just because a group of warp spiders could do jumps from the Moon doesn't mean a terminator squad can do the same thing.


About the destructive feats of a Thunderhammer: what kind of firepower were the greater demons able to tank before the hammer killed them? I'm trying to establish how tough they were so I can judge how powerful the hammer is. 

Same thing with the tank, how durable was it? I've heard about Leman Russ's getting hit so hard the whole tank flew backwards, but the armor wasn't penetrated. Was it a Leman Russ that got destroyed by a Thunderhammer? 

Also, was the hammer wielded by a named character, or a fodder? Reason being, it might just be that the wielder was that awesome, not that the weapon is particularly powerful. Minako was able to kill dozens of fodder with a kunai, but it doesn't mean the kunai is a powerful weapon.

And yes, I'd like ranges on the Autocannon. Reason being, ninjas have showcased long-range jutsu before. Is the Autocannon accurate enough to snipe people from long range? 

And what about underwater feats? I know the suits are pressurized, but how much air do they usually carry with them? 

How will they deal with Genjutsu? 

You also still haven't answered how fast the marines are in combat. Can they track supersonic fighters and shoot them accurately? Can they go hand-to-hand with a supersonic fighter?

Lastly, are all of these marines fully armored, or do we have someone not wearing their helmet? OP, please answer this.


----------



## Darklyre (Sep 13, 2009)

Thunderhammers can definitely take out a Leman Russ if wielded by a Space Marine. And yes, there was an instance where a tank shell hit a Leman Russ and the Russ literally got thrown a couple of feet to the side, but was still fully operational and its armor wasn't punctured. Thunderhammers build up energy and release it on impact, releasing a wave of energy that penetrates into the target while also knocking back anyone around the hammer.

Genjutsu will not work against a Terminator, because all Terminators have helmets on. Arguing that genjutsu works on someone viewing the battlefield through a computerized HUD is like arguing that Itachi can use a camera to record his Mangekyo, mail it to Sasuke, and saying the genjutsu works. Plus, Space Marines have alternate vision modes (Terrorsight).

Marines are good enough with regular bolters to peg people from 2 kilometers away, and can go hand to hand with enemies fully capable of deflecting bullets with melee weapons. Marines don't use autocannons (it's an IG weapon), but instead pack heavy bolters or stormbolters. For heavy support they use lascannons (let's see Shinra Tensei deflect THAT).


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 13, 2009)

TheHolyDarkness said:


> The Master Chief can move a tank.


No, he can't. Read the books.



> Otherwise it wouldn't be a "game mechanic" in the first place. Not saying he lifts it above his head. If he can do it, then a Battle Brother who'd tear him to shreds could do it better.


So he can flip a Rhino or whatever too, right? I guess that means Terminators can flip Baneblades and Land Cruisers. 

Game mechanic.

And attributing Chief feats to Space Marines is ridiculous. In the end, all we get is Chief is stronger than Space Marines. Nothing else.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 13, 2009)

Well it is fucking Master Chief. Even his name suggests a motherfucking badass


----------



## Quelsatron (Sep 13, 2009)

Master chief is his rank, not his name


----------



## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 13, 2009)

Darklyre said:


> Marines don't use autocannons (it's an IG weapon)



Yeah, that was always a typo. Its called the Assault Cannon. Autocannon is a different beast altogether, and not used by terminators.

?

Space Marines keep up with Eldar. How fast are Eldar? I once got into a whole nother conversation on that (which I can provide the link for later if you want. This post has to be a quick reply), but it's certainly enough for Naruto's "supersonic" ninjas as you put them.

Since when the hell was Naruto about a bunch of "supersonic" bullet timers? This isn't DBZ.  Special movement jutsus doesn't count for reaction time feats.

?

I still disagree. For normal movement, the chief has to think about it lest he overshoots. Master Chief can move a tank around if he puts is muscles into it.  Not saying he lifts it over his head. Not saying its an exertion he could do all day. We can argrue whether is counts as pure game mechanic or not, but regardless, are you trying to tell me that a ninja isn't going to be splattered by the strength of a terminator hitting it with a fist, claw, or hammer wrapped in a energy field that are disruptive to matter, because somehow the Terminators aren't strong enough? You are arguing another moot point...again because? 

None of the Naruto characters have the durability for tanking any of these weapons, precisely quantified strength or not.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


----------



## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 13, 2009)

If we're going to resort to game trailers, that one is a bit out of date if you ask me. 

[YOUTUBE=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQoFwy1eu94]Even better[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 13, 2009)

TheHolyDarkness said:


> Since when the hell was Naruto about a bunch of "supersonic" bullet timers? This isn't DBZ.


Since Lee broke the sound barrier.



> I still disagree. For normal movement, the chief has to think about it lest he overshoots.


Your point?



> Master Chief can move a tank around if he puts is muscles into it.


Provide something, anything, that would support your theory. Because I have a few events I can cite.



> but regardless, are you trying to tell me that a ninja isn't going to be splattered by the strength of a terminator hitting it with a fist, claw, or hammer wrapped in a energy field that are disruptive to matter, because somehow the Terminators aren't strong enough?


Go back to read what I responded to to begin with before you make this assumption. I'm just calling bullshit on Terminators being class 80+. I'd say they're about class 10.


----------



## Darklyre (Sep 14, 2009)

Master Chief moving a tank or not isn't even an issue, because regular Space Marines in Mark VIII armor can drag Chimeras and Hellhounds around by themselves. Terminator armor pumps your strength up even more.

Hell, there's a documented case of an Ogryn pulling a broken-down Chimera about 100 feet with his bare hands.


----------



## Slice (Sep 14, 2009)

To say it once again, a Terminator squad would rape the Narutoverse IF (and only if) they have a support ship guiding their teleporters.

Because if you are buried under a large amount of sand / earth / rock / mud you wont be able to move and without beeing able to move you cant dig yourself out.




To the person that asked about Terminators swimming: I think they would need to walk to the shore, these guys are heavy. (They have a very large air support, else they would not be able to spend hours in Space Hulks)


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 14, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Since Lee broke the sound barrier



Um, no he didn't.

Only the top tiers of Narutoverse are supersonic. Even Killerbee was only slightly supersonic.


----------



## Grrblt (Sep 14, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Um, no he didn't.
> 
> Only the top tiers of Narutoverse are supersonic. Even Killerbee was only slightly supersonic.



All Naruto characters are massively supersonic.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 14, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> All Naruto characters are massively supersonic.



ROFLMAO


----------



## Quelsatron (Sep 14, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> All Naruto characters are massively supersonic.



Yes, I distinctly recall ten ten breaking the sound barrier


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 14, 2009)

Darklyre said:


> Thunderhammers can definitely take out a Leman Russ if wielded by a Space Marine. And yes, there was an instance where a tank shell hit a Leman Russ and the Russ literally got thrown a couple of feet to the side, but was still fully operational and its armor wasn't punctured. Thunderhammers build up energy and release it on impact, releasing a wave of energy that penetrates into the target while also knocking back anyone around the hammer.
> 
> Genjutsu will not work against a Terminator, because all Terminators have helmets on. Arguing that genjutsu works on someone viewing the battlefield through a computerized HUD is like arguing that Itachi can use a camera to record his Mangekyo, mail it to Sasuke, and saying the genjutsu works. Plus, Space Marines have alternate vision modes (Terrorsight).
> 
> Marines are good enough with regular bolters to peg people from 2 kilometers away, and can go hand to hand with enemies fully capable of deflecting bullets with melee weapons. Marines don't use autocannons (it's an IG weapon), but instead pack heavy bolters or stormbolters. For heavy support they use lascannons (let's see Shinra Tensei deflect THAT).



I need more feats of durability from Greater Demons and Leman Russes. Could they have withstood a bijuu chakra cannon? Still trying to determine the durability of these targets so I know the highest damage a Thunder Hammer can do.

Genjutsu doesn't always work through sight. And again, are we assuming all the terminators have their helmets on, or is the captain/commander too cool 4 skool and goes helmetless?

This 2 kilometer feat, how often has it been duplicated? Is this something they can all do, or is this like Roshi moon-busting, an outlier feat that really doesn't mean much?



Slice said:


> To say it once again, a Terminator squad would rape the Narutoverse IF (and only if) they have a support ship guiding their teleporters.
> 
> Because if you are buried under a large amount of sand / earth / rock / mud you wont be able to move and without beeing able to move you cant dig yourself out.
> 
> ...



I was basically asking if water would significantly slow them down, given muddy lake bottoms + heavy power armor = Halp I can't move!

I was also wondering if it would be possible to drown them. Exactly how much air are they carrying? Can the suits filter oxygen from water?

*Now, is it the general consensus that the terminators cannot win without orbital support enabling their teleporters?* Am I correct in assuming that without support, they couldn't teleport their way out of a cardboard box, or can they still teleport, but with reduced ranged?

Just for the sake of argument, lets say they have orbital support.

Do they have the necessary armament to penetrate KN4+'s chakra shroud?

The shroud was able to be punched through hundreds of meters of dirt and rock on the point of a sword, and remain completely unpenetrated. The amount of force sitting on the point of that sword was very, very high. I believe there have been calculations done, if anyone cares to look it up.

What do they do about Madara's intangibility, or Zetsu's ability to blend into his environment? You can't kill these people with bullets.

What about Kamui? Assuming Kakashi is smart enough to remain hidden with Henge or Bushins to confuse/distract, does terminator armor have any resistance to reality warping?

How about C3/C4/suicide bushin/suicide bomb from Deidara? People have already stated that Terminator armor was designed to walk on suns. Have any terminators ACTUALLY proven this with feats? Besides getting stepped on by a titan, what other durability feats do the suits have?


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 14, 2009)

No proof that Madara can't be blasted by an attack that is simply too fast for him to react to. Also Kamui is not reality warping.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 14, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> No proof that Madara can't be blasted by an attack that is simply too fast for him to react to. Also Kamui is not reality warping.



Sasuke nailed Madara with Amteratsu. 

Madara was already on fire, and did not react to dodge the attack. It took him completely by surprise.

Madara used his intangibility, and was fine afterwards.

EDIT: And Kamui sends the target to a different dimension. If that's not reality warping, what would you call it? Dimension bending?


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 14, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Sasuke nailed Madara with Amteratsu.
> 
> Madara was already on fire, and did not react to dodge the attack. It took him completely by surprise.
> 
> Madara used his intangibility, and was fine afterwards.



Yeah, he teleported parts of himself away, but his body was fine, it wouldn't happen if his body was blown apart completely before he could react


----------



## Gig (Sep 14, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> I am not an expert on the chaplains but do they have psyker powers?



No but a nameless Ultramarine chaplain without terminator Armour was capable of defeating a Bloodthirster in a winter assault cinematic 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgeVH5wOS7Q[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 14, 2009)

Another fallacy I find with bringing up Rock Lee (who represents the absolute top tier in speed for the Narutoverse, and by no means is a representation of the average that these Terminators will face), is that even after going all out in that battle with Gaara, he still lost.

Why?

Because he couldn't penetrate armor made out of a _layer of sand_. 

If people like Lee can't deal with Sand Armor, what in the Golden Throne do they intend to do to ship grade Adamantium?

It'll be no different from fighting a Warp Spider. Easier in fact, since the guy with the flamer can just light the area on fire. Or they can just stand there like Gaara did and wait for Lee to break his foot off trying to melee these guys. Either way, it ends the same way its going to end for everyone else who fails to repent:  Bolt round to the head. Chainfist to the torso.

Oh yeah, and as to how they typically deal with water, Space Marines don't swim, they just move along the floor of water unimpeded. The Cleansing of Laeran featured underwater operations.

Furthermore:



			
				Lexicanum said:
			
		

> Multi-lung
> 
> Phase 9: This additional lung activates when a Space Marine needs to breathe in low-oxygen or poisoned atmospheres, and even water. The natural lungs are closed off by a sphincter muscle associated with the multi-lung and the implanted organ takes over breathing operations. It has highly efficient toxin dispersal systems.



~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## RivFader (Sep 14, 2009)

Shit, that is a new definition of rape.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 14, 2009)

TheHolyDarkness said:


> Another fallacy I find with bringing up Rock Lee (who represents the absolute top tier in speed for the Narutoverse, and by no means is a representation of the average that these Terminators will face), is that even after going all out in that battle with Gaara, he still lost.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...



Firstly, Lee isn't top tier in speed. People like Yondaime, Sage Mode Naruto, Raikage, and Killer Bee are.

Secondly, nobody is arguing that Narutoverse punches can puncture adamantium.

What I AM asking, however, is what type of durability do these suits have? Can they withstand bijuu chakra cannons? C3? Suicide explosion?

You claim they can walk on the sun. Has any of them actually demonstrated this? Besides being stepped on by a titan, what other durability feats do terminator suits have?

Also, lake bottoms typically have mud. Lots of mud. How are you supposed to move through mud when you weigh 3000 pounds? 

Also, how much air are they carrying with them? Narutoverse contains oceans. Even if they could move along the bottom without getting hindered by mud, they would still have to traverse the ocean fast enough to not run out of air and drown.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 14, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Firstly, Lee isn't top tier in speed. People like Yondaime, Sage Mode Naruto, Raikage, and Killer Bee are.
> 
> *Going by feats, he is arguably the fastest. Possibly only Killer Bee beats him in that aspect.*
> Secondly, nobody is arguing that Narutoverse punches can puncture adamantium.
> ...



replies in bold


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 14, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Um, no he didn't.




*Spoiler*: __ 






That doesn't look like



at all to you? What, then, is that big wave?








			
				rawrawraw said:
			
		

> being in a plasma reactor's core. that's almost like in the sun


Nothing suggest the plasma core is activated. It's be moronic to conduct repairs on something while it's on. It's be even dumber to walk into an active plasma core.


----------



## Darklyre (Sep 14, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> I need more feats of durability from Greater Demons and Leman Russes. Could they have withstood a bijuu chakra cannon? Still trying to determine the durability of these targets so I know the highest damage a Thunder Hammer can do.
> 
> Genjutsu doesn't always work through sight. And again, are we assuming all the terminators have their helmets on, or is the captain/commander too cool 4 skool and goes helmetless?
> 
> This 2 kilometer feat, how often has it been duplicated? Is this something they can all do, or is this like Roshi moon-busting, an outlier feat that really doesn't mean much?



Thunderhammers are fully capable of blasting apart a superheavy like the Baneblade or Shadowsword with a couple of hits.

Leman Russes can't withstand the chakra cannon, but then again a Terminator suit is more durable than Leman Russ armor. Greater Daemons, on the other hand, vary according to the sacrifices used to summon them. Sacrifice a couple dozen cultists and you'll get a daemon that can kill Space Marines with one hit. But sacrifice entire hive cities and put forth a living vessel and you'll get a monster like Ghargatuloth, which would literally laugh off a chakra cannon blast.

Your average Greater Daemon's abilities and durabilities depend on which Chaos God they follow. Lords of Change are straight up bullet timers, as seen in the Blood Angels books. They can swat bolter shells out of the air with ease, can move at near-sonic speeds, and have precognition. Keepers of Secrets lack durability, but have insane speed and mental attacks. Greater Unclean Ones are slow, but incredibly durable, plus are completely immune to any sort of poisons, diseases, or other biological weapons (they don't die to virus bombs, but they will die to the ensuing planetary firestorm). The most nasty in battle would be the Bloodthirsters. It took 99 Grey Knight Terminators to kill 12 Bloodthirsters, in order to let the Grey Knight Chapter Master banish Angron back to the Warp.

If you want a REALLY nasty Bloodthirster, there was one that was so powerful it was ripping apart thousand-foot walls by itself, and was able to summon tens of thousands of lesser daemons at will.

And if genjutsu doesn't work through sight, what DOES it work through? Hearing poses the same problem - you have to get past the helmet's auditory sensors. You obviously can't do it by touch because no one's getting through that armor.

As for targeting, there was one Iron Snake who was completely blinded (took a choppa to the face), yet managed to headshot Orks at will via his HEARING. Space Marines are expected to kill their enemies with one shot.

As for the plasma reactor thing...I do believe it's for when the reactor is still ON.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 14, 2009)

Darklyre said:


> Thunderhammers are fully capable of blasting apart a superheavy like the Baneblade or Shadowsword with a couple of hits.
> 
> Leman Russes can't withstand the chakra cannon, but then again a Terminator suit is more durable than Leman Russ armor. Greater Daemons, on the other hand, vary according to the sacrifices used to summon them. Sacrifice a couple dozen cultists and you'll get a daemon that can kill Space Marines with one hit. But sacrifice entire hive cities and put forth a living vessel and you'll get a monster like Ghargatuloth, which would literally laugh off a chakra cannon blast.
> 
> ...



That would be Ss'll Sh'Karr from Ben Counter's Daemon World. His death was pretty ghey though :/

As for Genjutsu, prayers really help and since there is a chaplain here, I doubt it's going to effect them.


----------



## neodragzero (Sep 14, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Generic shockwave from air displacement. It pops up from time to time. It's all the more less proof of breaking the sound barrier when you have numerous fictional series filled with supersonic+ character that don't create such a visual effect. It would be like claiming that Saint Seiya Gold Saints aren't hitting past the sound barrier just because the artist doesn't bother with shockwaves all the time. Gumn: Last Order, Bakiverse, etc. actually bother to present and even explain sonic booms.


----------



## Fang (Sep 15, 2009)

I swear to god at one point in a old Space Marine thread, CD posted an excerpt of normal Space Marines being stepped on by Titans and working in an active plasma reactor.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 15, 2009)

Darklyre said:


> Thunderhammers are fully capable of blasting apart a superheavy like the Baneblade or Shadowsword with a couple of hits.
> 
> Leman Russes can't withstand the chakra cannon, but then again a Terminator suit is more durable than Leman Russ armor. Greater Daemons, on the other hand, vary according to the sacrifices used to summon them. Sacrifice a couple dozen cultists and you'll get a daemon that can kill Space Marines with one hit. But sacrifice entire hive cities and put forth a living vessel and you'll get a monster like Ghargatuloth, which would literally laugh off a chakra cannon blast.
> 
> ...



And what is the durability of Superheavies like?

Here's my point in trying to assess the damage potential of the Thunderhammer: Can it kill KN4+.

KN4 was pushed through hundreds of meters of rock and dirty on the point of a legendary sword that can supposedly cut diamond. It was completely uninjured. All forms above KN4 only get stronger after that. 

Same thing for the durability of Terminator suits, I'm trying to assess if Narutoverse's strongest attacks can puncture the armor. 

Bijuu chakra channon, C3, suicide explosion, etc. 

Genjutsu would work on any foolish, brave captains that weren't wearing their helmets, like many WH40k captains seem to like doing. The OP hasn't specified if they're all wearing full armor or not.

As for the targetting feat, could all Space Marines do this? Or was this one Iron Snake a main character in a book, and therefore could perform feats beyond most of his battle brothers? Not all Space Marines are equal in combat, and I need to determine what the average combat strength of a marine in Terminator armor is.

As for the plasma reactor feat, first we need to get a consensus on whether the thing was actually ON. 

Then we need to see how long he was in the reactor, where exactly in the reactor he was, as I'm betting there are temperature variations, and what he was like when he got out.


----------



## Fang (Sep 15, 2009)

Considering there are plenty of Space Marine chapters and legions that have commanders who are always donning their helmets unless their damaged heavily or destroyed, there's no reason to assume they'll be off.


----------



## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 15, 2009)

The original poster specified *full* terminator gear.  He never made any mention of a captain. They are being lead by a Chaplain, who by their nature of their jobs, never go helmetless.

Also, as already mentioned by one person above, prayers and litanies indeed strengthen the soul against outside corruption and delusions. This is why Battle Brothers and Sisters remain so calm in scenarios in which entire populations are going mad from the touch of Chaos.  Even if genjustu could get past the filters of their suit, these people are already hardened against mindrape.

I haven't considered Naruto's bijuu since I presume he'd be shot dead long before he'd resort to KN Mode. Not fully decided on Killer Bee yet. Haven't read in awhile since the Pein arc, but apparently the shift went back to the Rock village, so I'll need to catch up on the latest feats of the manga to see if there've been any changes with that particular individual. 

I'll consider that if anyone could survive and even cause causalities to this team, it might be KB considering he has no moral predisposition against exploiting his bijuu mode. Again, since I'm not up to date with Killer Bee you'll have to excuse me for now as I am not aware if he's been nerfed since his apparent capture by Hawk. If not, then I might concede that the Terminators may require some support for his exceptional case, presuming they are not quick enough to plug bolter shells into him before he activates his inner daemon.  This still may remain moot however, based on how holy promethium fares up against the hyperboled Amatarasu, which was evidently adequate.  If that flame could bring him low, so too could promethium arguably fare, especially when stacked with the destructive potential of assault cannons and cyclon missile launchers. I would definitively be assured of their win if any of these marines carried plasma with them, but since they don't I'll allow the jury to remain out on this point.

Unlike Killer Bee however, Naruto would be bolter blitzed just as everyone else before consulting the deamon option. Buushins or not, 2 assault cannons plus a flurry of storm bolters wouldn't miss, making KN mode a moot point.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 15, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> Generic shockwave from air displacement.


A.K.A. Sonic boom.  



> It would be like claiming that Saint Seiya Gold Saints aren't hitting past the sound barrier just because the artist doesn't bother with shockwaves all the time.


Not if you have another source that tells us they're supersonic.


----------



## Darklyre (Sep 15, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> And what is the durability of Superheavies like?
> 
> Here's my point in trying to assess the damage potential of the Thunderhammer: Can it kill KN4+.
> 
> ...



Superheavies laugh off everything short of entire tankbuster platoons. There is absolutely nothing in the Narutoverse short of a bijuu chakra blast or Kakashi's Sharingan that could get through a superheavy's armor. These things laugh off direct hits from everything short of another superheavy's guns. Terminator suits have armor comparable to a superheavy (less thick, but higher quality than regular SM armor). The main problem with those giant Narutoverse attacks is that they're all explosive. Not all of the power will actually hit the targets.

And oh yeah, thunderhammers will definitely kill KN4 with a direct hit. For one thing, not all of a thunderhammer's energy is expended in an explosion. It's still a power weapon, meaning the energy field it creates is a matter disrupter. 

All Space Marines are able to hit long-distance targets. Considering they're nigh-identical biologically it stands to reason that marines in the same chapter will exhibit similar combat performance. The only thing that pushes some marines over others is their specialties or previous training before they became SMs, or things like bionics and experience. 

Oh, and plasma reactors, at the very least, are more energetic than fusion reactors. The IoM abandoned fusion reactors because they were _too weak_.


----------



## neodragzero (Sep 15, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> A.K.A. Sonic boom.


Nope.


> Not if you have another source that tells us they're supersonic.


Except that there isn't another source that blatantly has said Naruto character as supersonic. It's just for visual show. You're making a big deal out of something involving the sudden impact of two people, with one of them surrounded by sand.

And for the love of god, Kusanagi has NEVER cut through diamond. I repeat, NEVER.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 16, 2009)

TheHolyDarkness said:


> The original poster specified *full* terminator gear.  He never made any mention of a captain. They are being lead by a Chaplain, who by their nature of their jobs, never go helmetless.
> 
> Also, as already mentioned by one person above, prayers and litanies indeed strengthen the soul against outside corruption and delusions. This is why Battle Brothers and Sisters remain so calm in scenarios in which entire populations are going mad from the touch of Chaos.  Even if genjustu could get past the filters of their suit, these people are already hardened against mindrape.
> 
> ...



Fine, Genjutsu is out.

You're underestimating Narutoverse tactics. You keep saying that they all just get mown down by bolters without doing anything. You assume they'll charge head on like Samurai or something?

The entire manga's theme is that ninja act steathly and sneak attack for kills. Naruto himself was ridiculed for always standing out and not following traditional tactics. 

Henge and the various different bushins can certainly serve to protect the ninja while they prepare their jutsus. Besides the obvious D-rank jutsus, many of them have exotic camouflage jutsu. Nameless Hidden Rock fodder were able to hide themselves and even mask their scents in Kakashi Gaiden.

Speaking of jutsus, the only one that involves significant prep-time is Kirin. The others, even Kakashi's Mangekyo, come out very quickly. The bushins, henge, and cannon fodder only need to give them a second or two to form seals.

Regarding Naruto, even if you've only read until the end of the Pein arc, you can see that he still has difficulty suppressing Kyuubi, and after he gets KN8 sealed, continues to access Kyuubi chakra, as shown when he confronts Nagato. His bijuu is definitely part of this fight.

His SOP for combat is Kage Bunshin, either for scouting or for actual combat. After the initial scout, he'll either go Kyuubi or Sage Mode when he sees how badly his clones get owned.

Even if he shuns his bijuu, Sage Mode is still nothing to laugh at. There are numerous durability feats for his time in Sage Mode, and while he isn't at KN4 levels, he definitely won't die to a few bolter shots. It'd take the heavy weapons or a very precise shot with an ordinary bolter to bring him down, and even then, they'd still have to hit a target that is moving at supersonic speeds, and also has bushins to create diversions/do flanking attacks.

As for your comparison between the heavy flamer carried by squad and Amteratsu, you're assuming Killer Bee is dumb enough to get within range of this weapon.

His bijuu cannon seems to have a range on the other of several miles. Why would he get up close and in your face to shoot you?

Also, what about other large-scale attacks? Can C3/suicide bushin/C4/suicide explosion from Deidara hurt them? Again, have we established that the Terminator did indeed walk inside a working plasma reactor that was on? How long was he in the reactor for? What kind of shape was he in when he came out? 

Also, one other thing: I was reading that virus bombs penetrate space marine breathing apparatuses. Could C4 potentially do the same, since it works on a microscopic level? 

Even if we assume none of Deidara's attacks work, there's still bijuu chakra cannons, Gedo Mazo, and Kamui. 

The marines also have to figure out a way to kill Madara and Zetsu. 



Darklyre said:


> Superheavies laugh off everything short of entire tankbuster platoons. There is absolutely nothing in the Narutoverse short of a bijuu chakra blast or Kakashi's Sharingan that could get through a superheavy's armor. These things laugh off direct hits from everything short of another superheavy's guns. Terminator suits have armor comparable to a superheavy (less thick, but higher quality than regular SM armor). The main problem with those giant Narutoverse attacks is that they're all explosive. Not all of the power will actually hit the targets.
> 
> And oh yeah, thunderhammers will definitely kill KN4 with a direct hit. For one thing, not all of a thunderhammer's energy is expended in an explosion. It's still a power weapon, meaning the energy field it creates is a matter disrupter.
> 
> ...



Would a bijuu chakra cannon blast be on the level of a baneblade's main gun?

And I really don't get why you're telling me this stuff about power weapons. I really don't care about the fluff behind why WH40k tech works. I need feats and figures.

You claim a direct hit will kill KN4; I need more feats from thunderhammers before I can agree or disagree with you. Like, maybe thunderhammers penetrate super heavy armor because unlike an explosion, the force is concentrated on a single point? The baneblade weighs alot, so the force needed to move the entire tank is less than the force needed to pierce a square foot of its armor.

However, KN4 doesn't weigh several thousand tons like a baneblade. Maybe if he was hit with a thunderhammer, it would simply knock him a mile away, because his chakra shroud could take the blunt force, but the marine's strength is enough to launch him.

And we still don't have any details about the plasma reactor feat. Someone needs to find the source and elaborate.



neodragzero said:


> Nope.
> 
> Except that there isn't another source that blatantly has said Naruto character as supersonic. It's just for visual show. You're making a big deal out of something involving the sudden impact of two people, with one of them surrounded by sand.
> 
> And for the love of god, Kusanagi has NEVER cut through diamond. I repeat, NEVER.



Notice why I had the word "supposedly" in my sentence.

Even if he was just a regular sword, the fact that KN4 was stuck on it and pushed through tons of rock and earth and was unharmed still says something about his durability.


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## neodragzero (Sep 16, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Notice why I had the word "supposedly" in my sentence.


Notice how you aren't the only person to bring it up at all. How about bothering to ask for a scan instead of just typing in supposed statements.


> Even if he was just a regular sword, the fact that KN4 was stuck on it and pushed through tons of rock and earth and was unharmed still says something about his durability.


But not enough to take on something that disrupts matter on impact. It's more than just blunt force.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 16, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> Nope.


What explanation do you have that isn't a cop out then? I can take your "it's just show" explanations and apply it to every feat. Quit with the crap and make a proper rebuttal. Explain why sonic booms would be appearing around them when they're not moving above mach 1? Would you also consider the same waves appearing around Sasori's sand spikes to be more graphic appeals?



> Except that there isn't another source that blatantly has said Naruto character as supersonic.


There isn't one for Bleach, yet people are saying they're massively hypersonic. Is there one for One Piece either? I don't recall one. Just more things that can be chalked up to "visual show."

And about the plasma reactor feat. The thing was off at the time, it's be stupid as hell to think people walked into active plasma reactors to fix shit. It goes against all logical protocol.

And the KN4 blast would fuck up the Terminator's shit. Whether or not the Terminators let him charge it up is another story.

8-Tails solos them with its megaton energy blast. Demolish a mountain, something a sustained barrage IoM earth shaker cannons mounted on battleships for orbital fire can not do, is more than enough to vape the Terminators.

And there is an event where a Terminator was stepped on by a Warhound Titan and had to pull himself (damaged) out of a concrete floor. All this gives us it that the Terminator armor is stronger than concrete and dirt.


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## neodragzero (Sep 16, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> What explanation do you have that isn't a cop out then? I can take your "it's just show" explanations and apply it to every feat. Quit with the crap and make a proper rebuttal.


No, you actually can't apply it to every feat. Too many shows of supersonic+ characters that don't create shockwaves while still having the generic shockwave shown even for characters that are obviously not supersonic.


> There isn't one for Bleach, yet people are saying they're massively hypersonic. Is there one for One Piece either? I don't recall one. Just more things that can be chalked up to "visual show."


Just more things to further prove how usually random the usage of the shockwave effect is. Just too many series that just simply go without using it while we have others that do it without any back up for it. Fairy Tail, Veritas, etc. present the latter among other examples. Sudden air displacement feats are still impressive in their own way.

I can easily also bring up how destructive a sonic boom can be in variance between series such as Alita and Baki that bring up the destructive force that can occur near the source of a sonic boom. Something that isn't presented whatsoever in Naruto. There just isn't really a consistent usage of the visual effect for just the medium of manga alone.

To further add to that:
 rock is easy enough to break with hypo power on.


Show Gai has no shockwave with the gate release to such a level... I guess he's slower than a younger version of Lee that uses less gates. Or maybe Kishimoto really doesn't care.



> And about the plasma reactor feat. The thing was off at the time, it's be stupid as hell to think people walked into active plasma reactors to fix shit. It goes against all logical protocol.


Do you happen to even know the specific scene? In combat or not during combat? You don't really turn off your ship's plasma reactor depending on the situation.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 16, 2009)

Gig said:


> No but a nameless Ultramarine chaplain without terminator Armour was capable of defeating a Bloodthirster in a winter assault cinematic
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgeVH5wOS7Q[/YOUTUBE]



Holy crap, is that the same music from Big O?

As for the so-called "sonic boom", if it really was one it would cause a huge sound in that enclosed building and everyone would be covering their ears or at least commenting on it. It's just a generic visual effect that is used all the time, even for characters who are obviously nowhere near sound speed.



> Nothing suggest the plasma core is activated. It's be moronic to conduct repairs on something while it's on. It's be even dumber to walk into an active plasma core.



What if the damage made it impossible to shut off?


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 16, 2009)

*Special Effects =/= Supersonic*

Concerning the whole shockwave thing, have you not heard of a concept called the "rule of cool?"

No, they are not supersonic. In the case of Naruto its mere artistic license from a inconstant Kishimoto. The "shockwave" in this case is a mere dramatic tool, not a indication that Lee punched Mr. Sand Armor so hard that he literally accelerated to mach speeds.

Only to get back up again. Because, you know, armor made of sand and all.

?

The plasma reactor feat is commonly known, first originating from a codex entry. IIRC, it may also have been on the Game Workshop's website back when it actually made itself useful. It was something along the lines of how the terminator suit had been based upon a Dark Age of Technology STC for a civilian maintenance suit that could provide protection as the mechanic worked on a reactor (likely in a time for emergency repairs). Since GWI has long since pulled any life out of its website, as far as web resources go, the next best thing is the lexicanum, which in this case cites its primary sources as the 4th Edition Codex, WH40k Compendium, and White Dwarf 109.



			
				Lexicanum said:
			
		

> Development History
> The creation of Terminator armour was prompted to provide heavy armour and firepower to troops fighting in cramped battle zones, such as the claustrophobic tunnels of hive worlds and space hulks, too confined for Dreadnoughts and vehicles.
> 
> Terminator armour was developed thousands of years ago by the Adeptus Mechanicus Tech Adepts of Mars. Its design is a blend of Dreadnought armour, standard Marine power armour and heavy suits used by engineers working in the most hostile environments (such as micro-debris plagued orbits or the radioactive engine cores of stellar frigates).



~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 16, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> No, you actually can't apply it to every feat. Too many shows of supersonic+ characters that don't create shockwaves while still having the generic shockwave shown even for characters that are obviously not supersonic.


Can you connive an argument that wasn't founded on TVTropes.com? Your argument is a few centimeters different from Blathiron's Bitesize's "The authors don't think about physics when they write thus calculations should be ignored." 


> Just more things to further prove how usually random the usage of the shockwave effect is. Just too many series that just simply go without using it while we have others that do it without any back up for it. Fairy Tail, Veritas, etc. present the latter among other examples. Sudden air displacement feats are still impressive in their own way.


Irrelevant. 



> I can easily also bring up how destructive a sonic boom can be in variance between series such as Alita and Baki that bring up the destructive force that can occur near the source of a sonic boom. Something that isn't presented whatsoever in Naruto. There just isn't really a consistent usage of the visual effect for just the medium of manga alone.


Still irrelevant.  As for destructive force of a sonic boom. Lee is probably a little over four feet tall. Do you think a sonic boom from somebody that small is going to be really destructive or loud?


> To further add to that:
> BUT THEN
> 
> Show Gai has no shockwave with the gate release to such a level... I guess he's slower than a younger version of Lee that uses less gates. Or maybe Kishimoto really doesn't care.


Or perhaps there is a lower air density due to a higher elevation? I don't know, doesn't affect me.



> Do you happen to even know the specific scene? In combat or not during combat? You don't really turn off your ship's plasma reactor depending on the situation.


It was, IIRC, said by a narrator when explaining Terminator armor. The armor itself is derived from Dark Age tech that was used to fix plasma reactors. That's it.



Endless Mike said:


> As for the so-called "sonic boom", if it really was one it would cause a huge sound in that enclosed building and everyone would be covering their ears or at least commenting on it.


Not if the size was smaller. Sonic booms from aircraft are due to their large volume. Bullets are above supersonic, there isn't a massive boom.


> It's just a generic visual effect that is used all the time, even for characters who are obviously nowhere near sound speed.


"all the time"? Kishimoto has used it *twice*, once was for Lee after getting a massive speed increase, the other depicting Sasori's sand spears moving into attack. Explain how it is obvious that 4-gate lee is nowhere near the speed of sound.


> What if the damage made it impossible to shut off?


Unless the plasma reactor has unlimited energy in it, they can cut off its fuel supply.


TheHolyDarkness said:


> Concerning the whole shockwave thing, have you not heard of a concept called the "rule of cool?"


I don't apply it when analyzing fiction. It's a cop out so people don't have to accept visual based feats. 



> Only to get back up again. Because, you know, armor made of sand and all.


Because chakra reinforced sand that can stand up to a point blank explosion comprised of multiple grenade-level tags is pretty weak and all.


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 16, 2009)

neodragzero has a point screenxsurfer. if gai opened more gates than lee did and there was no sonic waves than either a: he's slower than gai which is improbable or b: kishi didn't feel like drawing it and lee's feat is accepted as an inconsistency. i don't think it has anything to do with density levels, they on land and kisame flooded the place.

although KB has been calced at mach 1.7 i think, and SM naruto is low super sonic


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## Darklyre (Sep 16, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Fine, Genjutsu is out.
> 
> You're underestimating Narutoverse tactics. You keep saying that they all just get mown down by bolters without doing anything. You assume they'll charge head on like Samurai or something?
> 
> ...



Simple hiding isn't enough against Space Marines. Space Marine armor has more than just regular vision, it includes infrared, ultraviolet, radar, and terrorsight, which allows them to look through walls and objects.

The reason a thunderhammer is so dangerous is because it's a power weapon. If it were just an explosive hit a Baneblade would laugh it off. The reason it can threaten a superheavy is because the energy field surrounding the weapon literally disrupts normal matter and tends to disintegrate things on contact. While you can argue that a chakra shroud could stop the power field, anyone trying to use a regular weapon or their body to stop it would be in for a very fatal surprise.

Deidara's attacks are NOTHING compared to Exterminatus-grade virus bombs. It's not that the virus bombs can get into the breathing apparatuses, it's that they're so virulent, poisonous, and corrosive that they will eat right through everything but adamantium-hardened bulkheads and bomb shelters. This stuff can literally liquify a Space Marine, armor and all, within 30 seconds of slight contact.


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## Hodo Astartes (Sep 16, 2009)

The Terminators can not possibly lose. That is technically impossible since them being defeated wold result in sending something more disposable like let's say some batallions of Guardsmen including Arty, Tanks and Valkyries.
Also would any Battlecruiser bringing them down also provide orbital support like sweeping strikes against any settlement larger than 10 houses.
Also Marines including their brethren in Terminator Armor are capable of performing gurillia tactics. Thus they would not bother fighting the whole haxwurst-party but run about burning the rice harvest to drive the ninja into hunger and despear. No one can ever find them and force them to fight since they simply port home.
With their homes destroyed, no food around and their families dead, leave alone all those powerhouses vaporized by His blessed orbital Lance Strikes the ninja will be mere prey reminding the terminators of their time in the Scout Company.
Thus technically the terminators are not even needed they'd rather have some noobish scouts with merely a 200 battles of eperience do such a lame job. Extinguishing a population that doesn't even utilise vehicles let alone space-fare is just far too easy.
Because no matter how strong they are, they must eat, drink and sleep. 
By the way... why the heck does the Narutoverse contain advanced electricity but no cars or firearms?


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 16, 2009)

rawrawraw said:


> neodragzero has a point screenxsurfer. if gai opened more gates than lee did and there was no sonic waves than either a: he's slower than Lee which is improbable or b: kishi didn't feel like drawing it and lee's feat is accepted as an inconsistency. i don't think it has anything to do with density levels, they on land and kisame flooded the place.


I take sonic booms when I get them. Inconsistencies are when the same character/device does the same thing and the same effect is not observed. And how else can you explain those shockwaves if not sonic booms? Can anybody give an answer other than, "Well Kishimoto was just drawing it that way but it isn't that way because he wasn't thinking about it." (sound familiar? Sorry Blathiron(sp))


As for Terminators, I think there is an instance where one was overrun and killed by a mass of tribal humans(will do a search). For every 40k feat of godliness, there is a weak and frail shadow.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 17, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> Notice how you aren't the only person to bring it up at all. How about bothering to ask for a scan instead of just typing in supposed statements.
> 
> But not enough to take on something that disrupts matter on impact. It's more than just blunt force.



Why would I ask for a scan when I know that there is no visual proof of the sword cutting a diamond? The only time it was referenced was during Orochimaru's fight with Sandaime. Which is why I said "supposedly" because it's information we're given by a character, with no feats to back it up.

And define "disrupts matter" for me. What does the field do to objects without any blunt force behind the blow? Like, if a Thunderhammer was brushed against concrete, would it melt? 



Darklyre said:


> Simple hiding isn't enough against Space Marines. Space Marine armor has more than just regular vision, it includes infrared, ultraviolet, radar, and terrorsight, which allows them to look through walls and objects.
> 
> The reason a thunderhammer is so dangerous is because it's a power weapon. If it were just an explosive hit a Baneblade would laugh it off. The reason it can threaten a superheavy is because the energy field surrounding the weapon literally disrupts normal matter and tends to disintegrate things on contact. While you can argue that a chakra shroud could stop the power field, anyone trying to use a regular weapon or their body to stop it would be in for a very fatal surprise.
> 
> Deidara's attacks are NOTHING compared to Exterminatus-grade virus bombs. It's not that the virus bombs can get into the breathing apparatuses, it's that they're so virulent, poisonous, and corrosive that they will eat right through everything but adamantium-hardened bulkheads and bomb shelters. This stuff can literally liquify a Space Marine, armor and all, within 30 seconds of slight contact.



So now you expect all the ninja in the entire world to find a cubby hole, curl up in a ball, and wait for death as the marines use infared and find them?

If you've got thousands of ninja in the field, some of which may or may not be bushin, some of which may or may not be Kage/Mizu/Suna/etc bushin which can actually hurt you and take hits and bleed, some of which are henged into rocks/trees, and then there are more using exotic camouflage jutsu like the Hidden Rock ninja, what do you do?

Shoot them? Sure, go ahead. Good luck telling which ones are fodder, and which ones are deadly, elite ninja with jutsu that WILL kill you on contact ,like Gedo Mazo, or Kamui. 

Say Kakashi takes the field with 1000 cannon fodder. The fodder make clones, henge, throw explosive tags to distract, and generally be a nuisance. Kakashi hides in some bushes/goes underground, and Kamui's one of the terminator's heads off. He does this one or two times, then the entire group retreats with whoever survives.

He can literally repeat this task over and over in the next days/weeks until the whole squad is headless. After all, this is the entire WORLD versus what, a dozen terminators?

As for the Thunderhammer, fine, whatever, I don't know enough to disprove your argument about it's damage. What I want to know is, how fast does the field disrupt matter? Like, if you gently brush it against something, say concrete, how fast is the concrete disrupted? Can a Jinchurriki possibly regenerate faster than the field disrupts?

Lastly, from your descriptions of the virus bombs, it seems they secrete acid? Otherwise, how could a virus break down inorganic material? 



Hodo Astartes said:


> The Terminators can not possibly lose. That is technically impossible since them being defeated wold result in sending something more disposable like let's say some batallions of Guardsmen including Arty, Tanks and Valkyries.
> Also would any Battlecruiser bringing them down also provide orbital support like sweeping strikes against any settlement larger than 10 houses.
> Also Marines including their brethren in Terminator Armor are capable of performing gurillia tactics. Thus they would not bother fighting the whole haxwurst-party but run about burning the rice harvest to drive the ninja into hunger and despear. No one can ever find them and force them to fight since they simply port home.
> With their homes destroyed, no food around and their families dead, leave alone all those powerhouses vaporized by His blessed orbital Lance Strikes the ninja will be mere prey reminding the terminators of their time in the Scout Company.
> ...



Way to bring up a bunch of terms that the OP specifically banned, and a red herring about Narutoverse tech.

Orbital support was neither banned nor allowed by the OP. Right now, it seems that without support and therefore without teleporters, the Terminators would be relatively easy to stop. 

And good luck doing guerilla attacks against fortified military installations manned by superhumans. 

I love your comment about the guardsmen though, lol.

So I guess Nami can't be beaten by Narutoverse or Bleach, because if she was, the whole Strawhat Crew would come avenge them? These threads are about a certain party vs. a certain party, not a certain party *and everyone that could possibly aid them from their own universe.* Seriously, you need to lurk more and learn how OBD works before you post.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Why would I ask for a scan when I know that there is no visual proof of the sword cutting a diamond? The only time it was referenced was during Orochimaru's fight with Sandaime. Which is why I said "supposedly" because it's information we're given by a character, with no feats to back it up.



Uh no, wrong. The statement about Orochimaru's Kunsangi affecting diamond was specifically only in the anime: ie Sarutobi/Sandaime's personal Summon said even in his pole form he was being harmed.

It's from filler.



> And define "disrupts matter" for me. What does the field do to objects without any blunt force behind the blow? Like, if a Thunderhammer was brushed against concrete, would it melt?



Assuming your not liquidated by the concussive force and kinetic force behind the Thunderhammer's blow, they have personalized energy fields to fuck up matter if pure force doesn't work.


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## Darklyre (Sep 17, 2009)

Unlike regular power weapons, Thunderhammers don't have constantly active energy fields. If you brushed concrete with a power sword you'd see the concrete disintegrate before your eyes as the energy field rips the matter apart atom by atom. With a Thunderhammer, only a strong kinetic impact will activate the energy field. However, the Thunderhammer's energy field is much more powerful than a regular power weapon's. If you brushed concrete with a Thunderhammer nothing would happen, but if you slammed it onto the concrete you'd both disintegrate a hole into the concrete and explode everything that it didn't directly touch.

And virus bombs aren't acidic. They're genetically engineered viruses that, yes, eat inorganic materials. Think of them as microscopic Tyranids, only at 500x the speed.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 17, 2009)

TWF said:


> Uh no, wrong. The statement about Orochimaru's Kunsangi affecting diamond was specifically only in the anime: ie Sarutobi/Sandaime's personal Summon said even in his pole form he was being harmed.
> 
> It's from filler.
> 
> ...



Ok, so the diamond thing is filler, disregard it then.

And I still haven't gotten a definition of "fuck up matter," or any rates at which is "fucks up matter," nor the extent to which it "fusks up matter." 

Seriously, I've been asking for almost the past two pages for concrete examples of feats, and this is what I get. 

Me cutting a tree down with a hatchet is technically "fucking up the matter" of the tree. 



Darklyre said:


> Unlike regular power weapons, Thunderhammers don't have constantly active energy fields. If you brushed concrete with a power sword you'd see the concrete disintegrate before your eyes as the energy field rips the matter apart atom by atom. With a Thunderhammer, only a strong kinetic impact will activate the energy field. However, the Thunderhammer's energy field is much more powerful than a regular power weapon's. If you brushed concrete with a Thunderhammer nothing would happen, but if you slammed it onto the concrete you'd both disintegrate a hole into the concrete and explode everything that it didn't directly touch.
> 
> And virus bombs aren't acidic. They're genetically engineered viruses that, yes, eat inorganic materials. Think of them as microscopic Tyranids, only at 500x the speed.



Finally, something concrete I can work with.

At what rate does the field on normal power weapons disintegrate matter? Could rapid-regeneration offset it's effects? I understand that even the molecules are being broken up, but if cells divided quickly enough and generated new cells, they could still close the wound.

As for the Thunderhammer, how big of a hole does it make on impact? Jinchuriki and Orochimaru regenerate from some pretty devestating injuries, so unless a significant portion of their bodies were atomized, they might be able to survive it.

And I thought Tyranids only consume biomass. This virus consumes everything.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2009)

Considering "normal" power weapons easily cut through ten millenia+ old enhanced and magically amped power armors of Chaos Marines on an atomic level almost like a lightsaber, there's nothing in Naruto regenerating from that.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 17, 2009)

TWF said:


> Considering "normal" power weapons easily cut through ten millenia+ old enhanced and magically amped power armors of Chaos Marines on an atomic level almost like a lightsaber, there's nothing in Naruto regenerating from that.



Orochimaru regenerated from being fully cut in half. 

Durability is not the same thing as regeneration.

Bone claw Wolverine has insane regeneration. He has average durability.

Never once have I argued that Power Weapons cannot cut something in Naruto. What I am asking is whether they can regenerate from such an attack, which has nothing to do with how good a power weapon can cut, unless it somehow also disables any regenerative techniques.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 17, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> As for destructive force of a sonic boom. Lee is probably a little over four feet tall. Do you think a sonic boom from somebody that small is going to be really destructive or loud?
> 
> Not if the size was smaller. Sonic booms from aircraft are due to their large volume. Bullets are above supersonic, there isn't a massive boom.



Except the panel you posted shows the shockwave being huge, much larger than their bodies. At least as large as the one in that picture of the fighter jet. So it would be large.



> Unless the plasma reactor has unlimited energy in it, they can cut off its fuel supply.



What if doing so requires entering the reactor itself, or igniting the fuel in a huge explosion? And they have to shut it down quickly or it will overheat and melt down?


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## Darklyre (Sep 17, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Finally, something concrete I can work with.
> 
> At what rate does the field on normal power weapons disintegrate matter? Could rapid-regeneration offset it's effects? I understand that even the molecules are being broken up, but if cells divided quickly enough and generated new cells, they could still close the wound.
> 
> ...



If a Space Marine used a power sword on another Space Marine's armor they'd be lucky to make it through the armor. If the energy field was on they'd cut through like a hot knife through butter. Thunderhammer energy fields are so powerful that each hit is like a grenade explosion. Only Terminators can use it because a regular Space Marine would be knocked off his feet from the blast. You're looking at a grenade-sized explosion per hit, with at least a few cubic feet of material being disintegrated by the swing itself.

And Tyranids do consume inorganic matter. That's how they get the minerals and adamantium in their bodies.


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 17, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> I take sonic booms when I get them. Inconsistencies are when the same character/device does the same thing and the same effect is not observed. And how else can you explain those shockwaves if not sonic booms? Can anybody give an answer other than, "Well Kishimoto was just drawing it that way but it isn't that way because he wasn't thinking about it." (sound familiar? Sorry Blathiron(sp))
> 
> 
> As for Terminators, I think there is an instance where one was overrun and killed by a mass of tribal humans(will do a search). For every 40k feat of godliness, there is a weak and frail shadow.



well just because it looks like a sonic boom =/= it is a sonic boom. at the same time it's hard to disprove that wasn't a sonic boom, so it's kind of a dilemma where it looks like a sonic boom but with no concrete proof to support the theory. imo it's not so far-fetched that lee was going at super-sonic speeds but you know well enough that we can't just go by the looks of things in fiction.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 17, 2009)

Darklyre said:


> If a Space Marine used a power sword on another Space Marine's armor they'd be lucky to make it through the armor. If the energy field was on they'd cut through like a hot knife through butter. Thunderhammer energy fields are so powerful that each hit is like a grenade explosion. Only Terminators can use it because a regular Space Marine would be knocked off his feet from the blast. You're looking at a grenade-sized explosion per hit, with at least a few cubic feet of material being disintegrated by the swing itself.
> 
> And Tyranids do consume inorganic matter. That's how they get the minerals and adamantium in their bodies.



How hard does the impact of the hammer have to be to trigger the energy field? 

Like, if a terminator hit a guardsmen with it, would the field trigger, or would the guardsmen's body not have enough mass and momentum?


----------



## Darklyre (Sep 17, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> How hard does the impact of the hammer have to be to trigger the energy field?
> 
> Like, if a terminator hit a guardsmen with it, would the field trigger, or would the guardsmen's body not have enough mass and momentum?



It'll trigger on a normal-sized human. If nothing else, you can clear out groups by slamming it on the ground for the explosion effect.

And yes, there was an instance where a Space Marine (possibly Grey Knight, but it wasn't a Terminator) was killed by a tribe of humans. However, they were all tainted by Chaos and I believe they managed to lodge the sword through a gap in the armor.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 17, 2009)

Darklyre said:


> It'll trigger on a normal-sized human. If nothing else, you can clear out groups by slamming it on the ground for the explosion effect.
> 
> And yes, there was an instance where a Space Marine (possibly Grey Knight, but it wasn't a Terminator) was killed by a tribe of humans. However, they were all tainted by Chaos and I believe they managed to lodge the sword through a gap in the armor.



Wait, there are GAPS in air-tight Space Marine armor? This makes no sense. How can it be air-tight and allow marines to survive in space when there are gaps?

Ok, this changes things completely. If there are gaps, you can be sure that an entire world of ninja will eventually find them, even if it's just through trial and error. Do Terminators also have such gaps, or is that regular armor only?

Also, I just realized how ridiculous this "works in a plasma reactor" feat is. The only proof of this is some fluff in a codex about how Terminator armor is based off civilian suits used for working in dangerous conditions, like reactors? Heck, does the codex even mention that it is an active reactor? Because working in an inactive one is still dangerous, given that it mentions these reactors being highly radioactive.

Unless someone can give me a better source, this plasma reactor feat is completely useless. It's an insinuation based on a vague codex statement, with no actual feats to back it up.

If we take this plasma reactor feat at face value, I guess Warcraft Titans have shaped 100 million worlds and are galaxy-creators, and only a Sharingan user can beat another Sharingan user.


----------



## Dante10 (Sep 17, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Wait, there are GAPS in air-tight Space Marine armor? This makes no sense. How can it be air-tight and allow marines to survive in space when there are gaps?
> 
> Ok, this changes things completely. If there are gaps, you can be sure that an entire world of ninja will eventually find them, even if it's just through trial and error. Do Terminators also have such gaps, or is that regular armor only?
> 
> ...



Its just the regular armor. It's the old model anyway, the new Mark V8 suits have no such "gaps". " (gap aka weakpoint)

I think the weakpoint was at the neck where the helmet meets the rest of the suit. I can't tell you anything about the plasma reactor feat.


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 17, 2009)

new mkviii aquila armor has more armor plating and muscle wiring involved than regular space marine suits making them much more bulky. not to mention the various field projector technologies and thermal plating which allow it to withstand the force and heat of lascannons, plasma reactors and battle cannon shells alike


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## madcow3005 (Sep 17, 2009)

rawrawraw said:


> new mkviii aquila armor has more armor plating and muscle wiring involved than regular space marine suits making them much more bulky. not to mention the various field projector technologies and thermal plating which allow it to withstand the force and heat of lascannons, plasma reactors and battle cannon shells alike



What does this have to do with anything?

Are you saying that this Mark 8 Aquila suit works in active plasma reactors?


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## Dante10 (Sep 17, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> What does this have to do with anything?
> 
> Are you saying that this Mark 8 Aquila suit works in active plasma reactors?



You asked about the "gaps aka weakpoints" in the regular SM armor. Which doesn't exist any longer due to the new upgraded armor. 

He didn't say anything about the Termie armor.....


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## Darklyre (Sep 17, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> What does this have to do with anything?
> 
> Are you saying that this Mark 8 Aquila suit works in active plasma reactors?



The Grey Knight that got killed by the tribe of humans was wearing an older suit of armor. The older suits had a gap between the chestplate and the helmet that had only a flexible covering, instead of actual armor. Newer Mk. VIII suits added a gorget, eliminating that weakness.

Terminator suits, on the other hand, are fully sealed, with no gaps. You can't pull the "sword in armor gap" trick like you could with the older regular suits.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 18, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Except the panel you posted shows the shockwave being huge, much larger than their bodies. At least as large as the one in that picture of the fighter jet. So it would be large.


Fighters have a wingspan greater than 40 feet meaning its sonic boom dwarfs the one in the Lee fight.



> What if doing so requires entering the reactor itself, or igniting the fuel in a huge explosion? And they have to shut it down quickly or it will overheat and melt down?


Then they're incompetent and fucked. Or they eject it. It's not like the repair suit was meant to run into an _active plasma reactor_ which provides energy for the ship is going to survive. Let me remind you, energy that allows a several million ton ship to fly .75 the speed of light, unleash megaton suppressive fire and gigaton broadside. To think terminator armor is going to jump into that and not be instantly incinerated is quite simply wank. Or daft! And to avoid overheating and meltdowns, they simply have to divert all that power into weapons and acceleration. Drain the energy faster than the reactor can put it out. Also notice how many "what ifs" you have going?



rawrawraw said:


> well just because it looks like a sonic boom =/= it is a sonic boom. at the same time it's hard to disprove that wasn't a sonic boom, so it's kind of a dilemma where it looks like a sonic boom but with no concrete proof to support the theory. imo it's not so far-fetched that lee was going at super-sonic speeds but you know well enough that we can't just go by the looks of things in fiction.



Alright. I'm here more for the terminator plasma reactor stuff and ending Holy Darkness' "what naruto ninjas are this great since when?" garbage.


----------



## neodragzero (Sep 18, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Can you connive an argument that wasn't founded on TVTropes.com? Your argument is a few centimeters different from Blathiron's Bitesize's "The authors don't think about physics when they write thus calculations should be ignored."
> 
> Irrelevant.


Except that Kishimoto doesn't bother to use shockwaves for other characters of the same or higher level of speed. Lee and Sasori are a weird minority in series filled with characters that either are at the same level or more in speed. It's still a giant inconsistency.


> Still irrelevant.  As for destructive force of a sonic boom. Lee is probably a little over four feet tall. Do you think a sonic boom from somebody that small is going to be really destructive or loud?


Gunm: Last Order has two characters creating sonic booms with their thumbs alone that still expand beyond the size of their own bodies and slice in half other surrounding people. Katsumi can create a sonic boom that takes up the inner space of Tokyo Stadium. Yet Lee can't create a sonic boom that doesn't easily surpass the confines of the fighting area? Natsu and Gazille couldn't create shockwaves while not touching each other but do create one the movement their fist collide? Heck, Oda only goes as far as to show off that kind of shockwave to give off the simple show of high kinetic energies hitting each other rather than back and forth random uses of a shockwave.


> Or perhaps there is a lower air density due to a higher elevation? I don't know, doesn't affect me.


The difference in elevation between the two scenes is meaningless at best. Gai wasn't fighting Kisame up in the sky or some other ridiculous elevation.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 18, 2009)

Darklyre said:


> The Grey Knight that got killed by the tribe of humans was wearing an older suit of armor. The older suits had a gap between the chestplate and the helmet that had only a flexible covering, instead of actual armor. Newer Mk. VIII suits added a gorget, eliminating that weakness.
> 
> Terminator suits, on the other hand, are fully sealed, with no gaps. You can't pull the "sword in armor gap" trick like you could with the older regular suits.



Ok fine, no gaps to exploit.

Besides the getting stepped on by a Titan feat, which isn't really that impressive, there still aren't any feats for Terminator armor durability that have been shown in this thread. What other feats are there?

Also, what is the counterargument for my theoretical battle plan for Naruto? Just for reference, I'll repost it:


> If you've got thousands of ninja in the field, some of which may or may not be bushin, some of which may or may not be Kage/Mizu/Suna/etc bushin which can actually hurt you and take hits and bleed, some of which are henged into rocks/trees, and then there are more using exotic camouflage jutsu like the Hidden Rock ninja, what do you do?
> 
> Shoot them? Sure, go ahead. Good luck telling which ones are fodder, and which ones are deadly, elite ninja with jutsu that WILL kill you on contact ,like Gedo Mazo, or Kamui.
> 
> ...



Naruto could also replicate this feat entirely with Kage Bushins, using FRS as the kill jutsu. Heck, even his Kage Bushins can perform FRS, so good luck stopping thousands of clones all attempting to perform FRS at the same time with only a dozen terminators.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 18, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> Except that Kishimoto doesn't bother to use shockwaves for other characters of the same or higher level of speed. Lee and Sasori are a weird minority in series filled with characters that either are at the same level or more in speed. It's still a giant inconsistency.


How the hell is anybody close to being as fast as Gate 4 Lee? Can anybody jump from surface to surface to kick somebody up before they traveled 3 meters down from a previous kick? No. There is no inconsistency. 



> Gunm: Last Order has two characters creating sonic booms with their thumbs alone that still expand beyond the size of their own bodies and slice in half other surrounding people. Katsumi can create a sonic boom that takes up the inner space of Tokyo Stadium. Yet Lee can't create a sonic boom that doesn't easily surpass the confines of the fighting area? Natsu and Gazille couldn't create shockwaves while not touching each other but do create one the movement their fist collide? Heck, Oda only goes as far as to show off that kind of shockwave to give off the simple show of high kinetic energies hitting each other rather than back and forth random uses of a shockwave.


You're citing other fiction for a source. 



> The difference in elevation between the two scenes is meaningless at best. Gai wasn't fighting Kisame up in the sky or some other ridiculous elevation.


Lee could have been near sea level while Gai may have been fighting somewhere of considerable elevation.


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## Darklyre (Sep 18, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Ok fine, no gaps to exploit.
> 
> Besides the getting stepped on by a Titan feat, which isn't really that impressive, there still aren't any feats for Terminator armor durability that have been shown in this thread. What other feats are there?
> 
> ...



Bunshins aren't actually real. Terrorsight allows a Space Marine to literally look into a person's body, to the point where they can view your heart and circulatory systems. Anybody that switches to Terrorsight would instantly know which ones are real and which aren't. Then it's heavy bolter/lascannon time.


----------



## Fang (Sep 18, 2009)

Considering even the lightest of Titans weigh hundreds of tons...it's a pretty impressive durability feat.


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## Darklyre (Sep 18, 2009)

There's also the feat where a Heresy-era Marine in regular armor got hit by a lightning bolt, and his buddies laughed at him for actually falling down.

This means that a Terminator shouldn't even be phased by a lightning bolt strike.


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 18, 2009)

I never cared about ninjas having special movement Jutsu. Only the original insinuation that 4 Gate Lee can move "extra fast" and if Yondaime can teleport, then that means we are to accept that everyone moves and reacts on a "supersonic" level.

Because they don't. They don't casually move at the speed of a bullet and their reactions are peak human at best. They won't be ripping off matrix-like slow mo stunts against the assault cannons. This. Isn't. DBZ. This isn't even Yu Yu Hakesho. 

They're not bullet timers. Bullets work here.

And in that case, the Terminators treat such characters the same way they deal with Warp Spiders of their universe: By shooting it as they overwhelming outlast it.

The Terminators don't need to move at supersonic speeds themselves for their weapons already do that for them. Besides, they also have their own "special movement" technique in the form of teleporting to balance this out anyway.  Adept as these ninjas may be at killing each other, virtually all of them lack the power to stop the Terminators from turning them into mangled pieces of gore. It doesn't matter if there are some "extra fast movement" characters in Naruto, as all that amounts to is for said mangled pieces to be attributed to bolter shot or promethium rather than by power fist or thunderhammer.

To reiterate, one of the primary reasons Naruto loses here is simply because there are no ninjas who could possibly tank the Terminator's weaponry.  The only valid argument I've heard so far is Killer Bee (who may yet lose to the flamer and krak missles in his face after putting up the only decent resistance), and that's about it.

 "Supersonic" or not, Rock Lee is a outlier. Rock Lee is irrelevant.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 19, 2009)

TheHolyDarkness said:


> I never cared about ninjas having special movement Jutsu. Only the original insinuation that 4 Gate Lee can move "extra fast" and if Yondaime can teleport, then that means we are to accept that everyone moves and reacts on a "supersonic" level.
> 
> Because they don't.


Nobody said they did.



> They don't casually move at the speed of a bullet and their reactions are peak human at best.


Prove it.



> They're not bullet timers.


Some of them are.



> To reiterate, one of the primary reasons Naruto loses here is simply because there are no ninjas who could possibly tank the Terminator's weaponry.  The only valid argument I've heard so far is Killer Bee (who may yet lose to the flamer and krak missles in his face after putting up the only decent resistance), and that's about it.


Killerbee nukes them for laffs before they can say "Oh Shit". 


> "Supersonic" or not, Rock Lee is a outlier. Rock Lee is irrelevant.


Rock Lee will fuck the Terminator's shit up. Unlike their armor, the Terminator's weapons do not have incredible durability. I'm sure even mook ninjas could destroy Terminator weapons will a well place explosive tag. Hell, I wonder how the Terminators will react to having a bunch of mook ninjas rushing them and sticking explosive tags all over their helmets, weapons, and hands.

Now what will Terminators do when all except their strongest melee weapons are destroyed?


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## neodragzero (Sep 19, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> How the hell is anybody close to being as fast as Gate 4 Lee? Can anybody jump from surface to surface to kick somebody up before they traveled 3 meters down from a previous kick? No. There is no inconsistency.


High tiers like Sennin Naruto. The kind that are obviously in the supersonic level but aren't busting out shockwaves.


> You're citing other fiction for a source.


I'm citing other fiction as blaring examples of a general medium.


> Lee could have been near sea level while Gai may have been fighting somewhere of considerable elevation.


Except that both aren't of an elevation difference that matters at all. Naruto fighting Pein in Konoha isn't busting out shockwaves.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 19, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> High tiers like Sennin Naruto. The kind that are obviously in the supersonic level but aren't busting out shockwaves.


I already answered this, if there is another way of figuring out the speed then use it.



> I'm citing other fiction as blaring examples of a general medium.


And it's still irrelevant. 



> Except that both aren't of an elevation difference that matters at all.


Prove it.



> Naruto fighting Pein in Konoha isn't busting out shockwaves.


Confusing isn't it?


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## madcow3005 (Sep 19, 2009)

Darklyre said:


> Bunshins aren't actually real. Terrorsight allows a Space Marine to literally look into a person's body, to the point where they can view your heart and circulatory systems. Anybody that switches to Terrorsight would instantly know which ones are real and which aren't. Then it's heavy bolter/lascannon time.



Kage/Mizu/Suna/etc bushins appear real enough to bleed, trick Sharingan/Byakugan which works like Terrorsight, and fight on their own.

Also, does this squad even have a lascannon? I thought it was 2 assault cannons and 1 heavy flamer?

Also, need durability feats for the Terminators.



TWF said:


> Considering even the lightest of Titans weigh hundreds of tons...it's a pretty impressive durability feat.



Not really, it just proves that terminator armor is harder than duracrete, or whatever the name of concrete is in WH40k.

If you stuck me in a pool filled with cotton, then put 1000 pounds on my body, I'd probably be fine as long as I could still breath when stuck in the cotton, since my body is harder than cotton is.



Darklyre said:


> There's also the feat where a Heresy-era Marine in regular armor got hit by a lightning bolt, and his buddies laughed at him for actually falling down.
> 
> This means that a Terminator shouldn't even be phased by a lightning bolt strike.



Or it could just be the fact that his buddies were jackasses and liked to make fun of people? 

Normal people have survived getting hit by lightning. 

Heck, a Space Marine suit is completely sealed off from the body by various layers of insulating material, isn't it? Like, the suit isn't touching their flesh, is it? So, lightning wouldn't even reach their flesh, instead just traveling from their helmets into the ground.



TheHolyDarkness said:


> I never cared about ninjas having special movement Jutsu. Only the original insinuation that 4 Gate Lee can move "extra fast" and if Yondaime can teleport, then that means we are to accept that everyone moves and reacts on a "supersonic" level.
> 
> Because they don't. They don't casually move at the speed of a bullet and their reactions are peak human at best. They won't be ripping off matrix-like slow mo stunts against the assault cannons. This. Isn't. DBZ. This isn't even Yu Yu Hakesho.
> 
> ...



And why exactly do you think ninjas need to be able to tank bolters to fight Space Marines?

Do Eldar sit there and tank bolter rounds? No, they use their superior maneuverability to their advantage. Why can't Narutoverse ninjas do this?


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## Crimson King (Sep 19, 2009)

Why the fuck is this still going on?

The Terminator Squad can literally stand in place and win. With the exception of Kakashi's eye, there is nothing in the Narutoverse that can even dent Terminator armor.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 19, 2009)

Never mind. I've been down this road before and nobody changes.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 19, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Kage/Mizu/Suna/etc bushins appear real enough to bleed, trick Sharingan/Byakugan which works like Terrorsight, and fight on their own.
> *You forget they pop at the weakest attacks.*
> 
> Also, does this squad even have a lascannon? I thought it was 2 assault cannons and 1 heavy flamer?
> ...



Answers in bolded


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 19, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> Why the fuck is this still going on?
> 
> The Terminator Squad can literally stand in place and win. With the exception of Kakashi's eye, there is nothing in the Narutoverse that can even dent Terminator armor.



Bijuu cannon, Gedo Mazo, and until some more durability feats are posted, C3/C4/Suicide Bushin/Suicide Explosion, and FRS.

They also still have to find a way to hurt Madara/Zetsu.



rawrawraw said:


> Answers in bolded



Firstly, stop posting your responses within my quotes. I can't see them when I quote your post, so I have to open a second window and keep your post there just so I can reread for reference as I write my response. Either quote my post then write your response below it, or if you want to answer each section of my post separately, them make separate quotes. 


> You forget they pop at the weakest attacks.



Sandaime's Kage Bushin withstood numerous blows without popping. 

Gaara's Suna Bushin took a full Omote Renge and was still able to fool everyone into thinking it was Gaara's real body. Heck, Lee had his hands on Gaara's Suna Bunshin before and during the descent, but he still thought he got Gaara himself.

Naruto's Kage Bushin was able to speak after getting hit by Neji before it popped.

Kakashi's Kage Bushin was able to take attacks from Kakuzu's masks and fake being injured, and not pop.

Even if they do pop on contact like you claim, which they don't always do, 1000 clones can still provide enough distraction for one of the elite ninjas to take out 1 or 2 terminators.

And the OP of this thread mentioned that the terminator squad has 1 heavy flamer, and 2 assault cannons. Don't go facepalming me for something the OP stipulated else wrote.



> There are several mentioned.



Which feats?

The plasma reactor feat is unusable for reasons I've already stated.

The titan feat just means their armor is stronger than WH40k concrete. Still not enough to tank the highest-tier Narutoverse attacks.



> Which is more durable than anything in naruto.



Feats for WH40k concrete? Because KN4 can tank being stuck on the point of a sword and slammed through hundreds of meters of rock and dirt, and come out perfectly fine. There are calculations floating around of the amount of force that was concentrated on about 0.1mm of surface area, and it's pretty astounding. 



> The point is not that. The point is nothing short of a killer bee chakra blast is denting the armor.



My point is, getting hit by lightning is nothing special when you're encased in a metal suit and insulated from it. It just means the electricity never even reaches your flesh, instead being conducted into the ground.

And again, when normal people have tanked lightning, a space marine tanking it really means nothing.

And you still need to give me durability feats for the armor before you go off spouting that only one thing in Naruto can dent it. Not to mention, even if nothing can dent the armor, Narutoverse still has Gedo Mazo and Kamui to kill them.



> only warp spiders can out maneuver a terminator's punishing assault because they can teleport. anything else would get shreaded with bolter rounds. last i've heard, naurto ninja's cannot teleport.



Yondaime teleports. Madara teleports. Not to mention, even high tiers of Naruto who can't teleport can still use their speed to their advantage. 

Everyone says Space Marines can tag super-sonic targets, but nobody has shown any quotes from books or comics or games or codexes to back this up.

By the way, it's not really conducive to your argument when your sig is so blatantly anti-naruto. Everyone can tell you're not arguing from an objective standpoint.

Lastly, Screensurfer brings up a good point: explosive tags might not hurt the terminators, but couldn't they damage the weapons? 

What happens to a cyclone missile rack that gets hit by multiple explosive tags? Have there ever been instances of misfire/the missiles blowing up after getting shot at?


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 19, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Bijuu cannon, Gedo Mazo, and until some more durability feats are posted, C3/C4/Suicide Bushin/Suicide Explosion, and FRS.



Cannon scratches their paint

Pain gets turned to flying bits of flesh before he can use his attack

explosions won't even touch their paint

FRS might scratch their paint

Terminator armor can take shots from bolters, which are basically RPG on auto. The pitiful explosions in Naruto are going to do jack shit.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 19, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> Cannon scratches their paint
> 
> Pain gets turned to flying bits of flesh before he can use his attack
> 
> ...



Are you serious? You're comparing an automatic RPG with bijuu chakra cannons?

Stop trolling.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 20, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Are you serious? You're comparing an automatic RPG with bijuu chakra cannons?
> 
> Stop trolling.


Those same bijuu cannons have done jack shit to show that they can punch through Terminator armor.

Show me proof that a Bijuu cannon can punch though adamantium.


----------



## Ark 2.0 (Sep 20, 2009)

Argh...quick question, do they deep strike into the narutoverse, because if the imperial fists have tought us one thing, is that teleportation can go horribly, horribly wrong...argh


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## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 20, 2009)

Ark 16.0 said:


> Argh...quick question, do they deep strike into the narutoverse, because if the imperial fists have tought us one thing, is that teleportation can go horribly, horribly wrong...argh



For the sake of argument nothing wrong occurs for the termies in using teleporters. That would be considered a PIS fluke.



madcow3005 said:


> They also still have to find a way to hurt Madara/Zetsu



They shoot him. Yes. Its surprisingly that simple. To put it elegantly in the words of a great solver of (practical) problems:_ "The answer: use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun."_

He's not always intangible.



madcow3005 said:


> Sandaime's Kage Bushin withstood numerous blows without popping.
> 
> Gaara's Suna Bushin took a full Omote Renge and was still able to fool everyone into thinking it was Gaara's real body. Heck, Lee had his hands on Gaara's Suna Bunshin before and during the descent, but he still thought he got Gaara himself.
> 
> ...



Looks like you got us there. With buushin durability feats like that, I guess we can now reason that they will tank bolter shells. 

Guess there's no more point in arguing. 

/thread 



madcow3005 said:


> Feats for WH40k concrete? Because KN4 can tank being stuck on the point of a sword and slammed through hundreds of meters of rock and dirt, and come out perfectly fine. There are calculations floating around of the amount of force that was concentrated on about 0.1mm of surface area, and it's pretty astounding.



The terminator suit would perform similarly. If its not a power sword, then its harmless.  Using Kusinagi in the same manner, Orichimaru would be the one getting pushed by the terminator.

I don't care if it can cut diamond according to an anime filler spoken hyperbole. It can't cut a Terminator.

On that note, I wonder how Naruto would stand to a power weapon? Granted, these things cut like lightsabers. They enable its user to perform things like literally jamming their fist into the side of a tank.

You prove to me that Killer Bee is more durable than a 40K tank in Bijuu mode. And I say Killer Bee, because he is the only Bijuu (and by extension, the only opponent in this verse) that I will acknowledge in this fight. Naruto gets shot trying to pussyfoot around with Sage mode. 



madcow3005 said:


> Yondaime teleports. Madara teleports.



Warp Spiders teleport too. And have verifiable beyond human reactions. Yet they still fear the Space Marines. Let alone the terminators.



madcow3005 said:


> Everyone says Space Marines can tag super-sonic targets...



They will tag them by virtue that they are a squad of century long elite veteran marksmen superhumans using multiple rapid fire weaponry against a target that in no way can maintain infinite levels of high speed the way you seem to imagine, and all it takes is one. Which is just find and dandy, since Mr. High Speed can run around all he wants as he still has no way of damaging the Terminators.

Seems you need a concept of just what sort of fire rate the Assault Cannon has. Here. The assault cannon from the walker you see here is considered the same as that which is used on the Tactical Dreadnought Armor. Save that its even more accurate in the TDA configuration:

[YOUTUBE=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFkFo5SBx-g]This Dred uses an Assault Cannon[/YOUTUBE]

Our Mr. High Speed needs to perfectly dodge a pair of these, whilst perfectly evading fire from 4-5 storm bolters and a flamer. And it has to be perfect.



madcow3005 said:


> Lastly, Screensurfer brings up a good point: explosive tags might not hurt the terminators, but couldn't they damage the weapons?



I can't imagine that crap breaking down from something as weak as a explosive tag knowing what these things tank. Nor can I imagine a ninja even getting that close n the first place without a powerfist in the face. Regardless I'm not even going to argue this, because for the sake of argument, you can't just say crap like "they run out of ammo" or "their weapons break down" or "the termies get hungry during the campaign and go home."

What if their weapons break down? Well, what if some of the ninjas repented and allied with the termies? What if some of the ninjas run out of Kunai (lol)? What if Sasuke stopped being gay? What if a Imperator Titan suddenly descended from the sky?  See, this is not arguing, this is an weak attempt to nerf the subject so that they are below their default combat power via PIS. Only the OP has the right to do that. 

You have acknowledged that explosive tags do jack squat to the terminators. Then it does jack squat to their gear.



Crimson King said:


> Cannon scratches their paint





madcow3005 said:


> Are you serious? You're comparing an automatic RPG with bijuu chakra cannons?
> 
> Stop trolling.





Crimson King said:


> Those same bijuu cannons have done jack shit to show that they can punch through Terminator armor.
> 
> Show me proof that a Bijuu cannon can punch though adamantium.



You know what? It occurs to me now that it doesn't really matter whether the chakra cannon scratches their paint. 

Chaplain steps in front of his squad, and the Rosarius does the rest.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 20, 2009)

Madcow just ignore Crimson King. He's just an ignorant troll spouting "hurf durf, 40k is teh cool" and pulling crap out of his ass to debate. Chakra cannons not scratching their paint? So when did the terminator's withstand an omnidirectional blast capable of clearing out mountains?



TheHolyDarkness said:


> For the sake of argument nothing wrong occurs for the termies in using teleporters. That would be considered a PIS fluke.



No, it would be considered bad engineering. Why do people always beg for cop outs for stupid shit in franchises? 




			
				Holy said:
			
		

> Chaplain steps in front of his squad, and the Rosarius does the rest.


And that's what? Sway a little before being vaporized?


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 20, 2009)

as I said, Killer Bee is the only real threat here with his chakra cannon and naruto 8 tails. but as veteran space marines, that means space marines who've been fighting for centuries maybe even millenniums, they'll instantly recognize whos the bigger threat and take them out first.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 20, 2009)

That's only if they can indentify the Jinchuuriki in the army of Ninjas attacking them. I doubt they'll be able to find it, or stop the transformation while everybody is throwing up distractions.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 20, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> That's only if they can indentify the Jinchuuriki in the army of Ninjas attacking them. I doubt they'll be able to find it, or stop the transformation while everybody is throwing up distractions.



Hello, bolters. RPGs on auto.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 21, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Fighters have a wingspan greater than 40 feet meaning its sonic boom dwarfs the one in the Lee fight.



First of all, that sonic boom doesn't cover the entire wingspan. Second of all, that shockwave in the manga is at least dozens of times wider than Gaara's body. Thinking people wouldn't notice it at all is retarded.

Of course the real problem is judging speed based on visual effects. Take afterimages for example. The way they are most commonly displayed in manga/anime would be impossible in real life. No amount of speed could create that kind of effect unless the afterimage creator was actually traveling through time to leave multiple images of themselves in different places simultaneously. So by your logic, all afterimage users = time travelers. See the problem?


----------



## Glued (Sep 21, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> That's only if they can indentify the Jinchuuriki in the army of Ninjas attacking them. I doubt they'll be able to find it, or stop the transformation while everybody is throwing up distractions.



Okay, if I see a gigantic hillsized bull in theed middle of an army of human ninjas, I think I would be able to identify that the bull is probably a huge threat. Its call common sense, you don't need advanced training or whatever. I don't know if Space Marines have it or not, since I never played Warhammer, but they probably do.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 21, 2009)

They most certainly do


----------



## TheHolyDarkness (Sep 21, 2009)

What about the rosarius? It occures to me that they can not only dodge the slow building, blatantly charge up chakra cannon via teleportation, but in addition to that, the chakra cannon has to deal with the repulsor field of the rosarius, which, for all we know, may cause to shot to either curve around the Chaplain or even outright nullified.

If anyone knows more about it, please add. Unarmored, normal human beings equipped with a rosarius are supposed to be hardass to kill, let alone a superhuman who has a layer of tactical dreadnaught armor underneath even that.  These things are said to stop las*cannon* hits. In otherwords, even a jo smo guardsmen is supposed to be able to tank vehicle grade weaponry with that thing.

Not 100% sure how it works though; if its always on or manually activated etc. I'll look more into it, but if someone already knows, let us know.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


----------



## strongarm85 (Sep 21, 2009)

Ben Grimm said:


> Okay, if I see a gigantic hillsized bull in theed middle of an army of human ninjas, I think I would be able to identify that the bull is probably a huge threat. Its call common sense, you don't need advanced training or whatever. I don't know if Space Marines have it or not, since I never played Warhammer, but they probably do.



Space Marine Terminators are veterans of a a thousand wars. They lay seige and deffend countless worlds over a period of hundreds or even thousands of years.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 21, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> Those same bijuu cannons have done jack shit to show that they can punch through Terminator armor.
> 
> Show me proof that a Bijuu cannon can punch though adamantium.



Bijuu cannons level miles of terrain. They're multi-cityblock-busters at the low end, and mountain busters high end. 

YOU are the one that needs to show durability feats for terminator armor. So far in this thread, the only usable feat is getting stepped on by a Titan, which doesn't mean much.



TheHolyDarkness said:


> For the sake of argument nothing wrong occurs for the termies in using teleporters. That would be considered a PIS fluke.



That depends. Do teleporter accidents routinely occur? If yes, then it would just be a fluke for them NOT to materialize into a rock. 

Of course, since they don't usually malfunction, in this case yes, you're correct in that it would be a fluke.


TheHolyDarkness said:


> They shoot him. Yes. Its surprisingly that simple. To put it elegantly in the words of a great solver of (practical) problems:_ "The answer: use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun."_
> 
> He's not always intangible.



And that works against Zetsu, how?

You expect him to materialize himself in the middle of the squad and say "shoot me?"


TheHolyDarkness said:


> Looks like you got us there. With buushin durability feats like that, I guess we can now reason that they will *tank bolter shells*.
> 
> Guess there's no more point in arguing.
> 
> /thread



The bolded statement has been your problem this entire thread. For the last freaking time, I never stated ninjas can tank bullets. 

What I did state is that fodder ninja/various bushins can successfully distract and disorient opponents while the elites that actually matter excecute jutsus to kill the terminators. My statement about bushin durability is to show that they can successfully trick opponents even after suffering a lethal attack.

Now again, stop claiming I said ninjas can tank bolters. Reading comprehension.



TheHolyDarkness said:


> The terminator suit would perform similarly. If its not a power sword, then its harmless.  Using Kusinagi in the same manner, Orichimaru would be the one getting pushed by the terminator.
> 
> I don't care if it can cut diamond according to an anime filler spoken hyperbole. It can't cut a Terminator.



Awesome, now give me durability feats. This entire thread you've claimed terminators tank anything and everything in Naruto, yet the only feats you have to back that claim up is getting stepped on by a titan, and a piece of codex fluff about the origins of terminator armor.


TheHolyDarkness said:


> On that note, I wonder how Naruto would stand to a power weapon? Granted, these things cut like lightsabers. They enable its user to perform things like literally jamming their fist into the side of a tank.
> 
> You prove to me that Killer Bee is more durable than a 40K tank in Bijuu mode. And I say Killer Bee, because he is the only Bijuu (and by extension, the only opponent in this verse) that I will acknowledge in this fight. Naruto gets shot trying to pussyfoot around with Sage mode.



Nobody cares who you personally acknowledge. Naruto has been shown to use Kyuubi chakra even after he promises never to use it, and even after he has it resealed by Yondaime. Kyuubi is a part of this fight, whether you acknowledge it or not.

And again, why do ninjas have to tank power weapons? You seem to think this is a universe of mindless zombies, who's only tactic is to march forward in straight lines and eat bolters shots in the face.

Killer Bee's chakra cannon has been shown to have miles of range. Why does he need to get into power weapon range?


TheHolyDarkness said:


> Warp Spiders teleport too. And have verifiable beyond human reactions. Yet they still fear the Space Marines. Let alone the terminators.



Maybe that's because Eldar are outnumbered by the Imperium significantly?

So, a Warp Spider has to take a whole squad of marines down with him, or else the Imperium will win the war of attrition. But, since the Warp Spider can't take a whole squad down, he fears engaging Space Marines head on because Eldar aspect warriors are less replaceable than marines. 


TheHolyDarkness said:


> They will tag them by virtue that they are a squad of century long elite veteran marksmen superhumans using multiple rapid fire weaponry against a target that in no way can maintain infinite levels of high speed the way you seem to imagine, and all it takes is one. Which is just find and dandy, since Mr. High Speed can run around all he wants as he still has no way of damaging the Terminators.



Kamui. Gedo Mazo. Chakra cannon. And until you have some durability feats, C3/suicide bushin/suicide explosion. 

All it takes is one of those jutsu to take out a terminator. Good luck figuring out where Kakashi is when you're fighting an army of fodder ninja/clones.


TheHolyDarkness said:


> Seems you need a concept of just what sort of fire rate the Assault Cannon has. Here. The assault cannon from the walker you see here is considered the same as that which is used on the Tactical Dreadnought Armor. Save that its even more accurate in the TDA configuration:
> 
> [YOUTUBE=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFkFo5SBx-g]This Dred uses an Assault Cannon[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Our Mr. High Speed needs to perfectly dodge a pair of these, whilst perfectly evading fire from 4-5 storm bolters and a flamer. And it has to be perfect.



And why do they need to be in flamer range again? You've already claimed that bolters are accurate for a mile or two, but flamers are definitely not. 

And, even without the flamer being involved, while the squad is shooting down the speedster ninja, what is Kakashi doing? Kamuiing heads off. What is Pein doing? Stealing souls with Gedo Mazo. 

What is the rest of the fodder ninja/clone army doing? Throwing explosive tags at the weapons of the Terminators, potentially jamming a bolter or cracking the casing on a missile or whatever.



TheHolyDarkness said:


> I can't imagine that crap breaking down from something as weak as a explosive tag knowing what these things tank. Nor can I imagine a ninja even getting that close n the first place without a powerfist in the face. Regardless I'm not even going to argue this, because for the sake of argument, you can't just say crap like "they run out of ammo" or "their weapons break down" or "the termies get hungry during the campaign and go home."



Guns in Wh40k have durability feats now? Show me, cause just because a terminator won't break down doesn't mean his bolter is unaffected.

And again, kunai attached to explosive tags require ninja to be in melee range to use now?

And ninjas specifically breaking their weapons is not a viable tactic? Why? 


TheHolyDarkness said:


> What if their weapons break down? Well, what if some of the ninjas repented and allied with the termies? What if some of the ninjas run out of Kunai (lol)? What if Sasuke stopped being gay? What if a Imperator Titan suddenly descended from the sky?  See, this is not arguing, this is an weak attempt to nerf the subject so that they are below their default combat power via PIS. Only the OP has the right to do that.



How is a battle strategy of disabling your opponents weapons a nerf?



TheHolyDarkness said:


> You have acknowledged that explosive tags do jack squat to the terminators. Then it does jack squat to their gear.



Oh, so now bolters are designed to operate in an active plasma reactor too?



TheHolyDarkness said:


> You know what? It occurs to me now that it doesn't really matter whether the chakra cannon scratches their paint.
> 
> Chaplain steps in front of his squad, and the Rosarius does the rest.



The rozarius protects against soul snatching and dimension warping too? Cause bijuu cannon is the most obvious and least deadly weapon in the elite ninja's arsenal.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 21, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> Hello, bolters. RPGs on auto.



Hello thousands of fodder ninjas throwing up distractions.

Good luck finding Kakashi in a group of ninjas before he sends your head into a different dimension.



Ben Grimm said:


> Okay, if I see a gigantic hillsized bull in theed middle of an army of human ninjas, I think I would be able to identify that the bull is probably a huge threat. Its call common sense, you don't need advanced training or whatever. I don't know if Space Marines have it or not, since I never played Warhammer, but they probably do.



The bull would be miles away. Killer Bee's cannon has that much range, so he can stand back and just blast the squad from a distance. 



TheHolyDarkness said:


> What about the rosarius? It occures to me that they can not only dodge the slow building, blatantly charge up chakra cannon via teleportation, but in addition to that, the chakra cannon has to deal with the repulsor field of the rosarius, which, for all we know, may cause to shot to either curve around the Chaplain or even outright nullified.
> 
> If anyone knows more about it, please add. Unarmored, normal human beings equipped with a rosarius are supposed to be hardass to kill, let alone a superhuman who has a layer of tactical dreadnaught armor underneath even that.  These things are said to stop las*cannon* hits. In otherwords, even a jo smo guardsmen is supposed to be able to tank vehicle grade weaponry with that thing.
> 
> ...



If the shot curves, all the chaplains buddies standing behind him get wasted.

If it's totally nullified, then there's still soul-stealing, dimension warping, and weapon-destruction.

Besides, even if the rozarius can tank the blast, the chaplains buddies will suffer damage if they're not standing directly behind him.

And as an aside, HolyDarkness, I find it hilarious that you're using a cutscene from a video game as evidence, when plenty of cutscenes show Marines having decidedly less than super-human reaction times.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 21, 2009)

Okay Mike, I'll concede. I don't know what that thing surrounding Lee was so I guess we'll just call it a random air-wave generated from speed. I say random because it doesn't appear on calc'd supersonic characters. 



Crimson King said:


> Hello, bolters. RPGs on auto.



Hello clones, erratic movement, flashbangs and a ton of other shit. They're dead, quit wanking.



Ben Grimm said:


> Okay, if I see a gigantic hillsized bull in theed middle of an army of human ninjas, I think I would be able to identify that the bull is probably a huge threat. Its call common sense, you don't need advanced training or whatever.


Learn to read, it's called literacy. I never said Bijuu, I said Jinchuuriki. Here's some fun, identify the jinchuuriki.



			
				HolyDarkness said:
			
		

> What about the rosarius? It occures to me that they can not only dodge the slow building, blatantly charge up chakra cannon via teleportation,


Slow? It happens only moments after Suigetsu gets into lake form. "Shit, their is a giant lake in my way, I'm going to casually destroy it and the surrounding landscape."



> but in addition to that, the chakra cannon has to deal with the repulsor field of the rosarius, which, for all we know, may cause to shot to either curve around the Chaplain or even outright nullified.


Great, it curves around, explodes, and wipes them all out with the shockwave.



> If anyone knows more about it, please add. Unarmored, normal human beings equipped with a rosarius are supposed to be hardass to kill, let alone a superhuman who has a layer of tactical dreadnaught armor underneath even that. These things are said to stop lascannon hits. In otherwords, even a jo smo guardsmen is supposed to be able to tank vehicle grade weaponry with that thing.


Cite me the last time a lascannon leveled a small mountain.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 22, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> *snip*



RPG. on *AUTO*

Clones will last less than a second.

What the gibbering fuck are flashbangs going to do to Terminators?

They have something called TARGETERS.

Get your head out of your fucking ass and use your shit-filled brain for once.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 22, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> RPG. on *AUTO*
> 
> Clones will last less than a second.
> 
> ...



Kakashi needs less than 1 second to decapitate a terminator with Kamui.

GL picking him out in a group of thousands of ninja before he whacks you.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Sep 22, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Kakashi needs less than 1 second to decapitate a terminator with Kamui.
> 
> GL picking him out in a group of thousands of ninja before he whacks you.


Great. He picks off one, maybe two. RPGs on auto kill his face off.

And I recall Space Marines are bullet timers regardless, being able to snipe speedsters with their bolters at long range and all, meaning they actually outspeed most of Narutoverse casually.


----------



## Grrblt (Sep 22, 2009)

Do space marines have hearing?


----------



## Quelsatron (Sep 22, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> Do space marines have hearing?



Yes, but I imagine all sounds are filtered through their suit.


----------



## Grrblt (Sep 22, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> Yes, but I imagine all sounds are filtered through their suit.



So they actually don't have hearing.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 22, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Kakashi needs less than 1 second to decapitate a terminator with Kamui.
> 
> GL picking him out in a group of thousands of ninja before he whacks you.



Whoop de fucking doo. He might kill one. Now the rest rip him apart.

Or hey, they could, you know, shoot him first. they have TARGETERS for a reason.

And if you're gonna try to neg rep me for tearing apart your shitty excuse of an argument, try having a high rep first.


----------



## Quelsatron (Sep 22, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> So they actually don't have hearing.



Why do you ask?


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 22, 2009)

Killerbee needs to transform to Bijuu form to use his chakra cannon. And do you really think he would use it in combination with your tactics of having thousands of fodder ninjas swarm the Terminators at close range? He would be taking out his own side. As for having a "range of miles" IIRC the blast was about half a kilometer across. That's hardly miles, and hardly out of range of bolter shots.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 22, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> RPG. on *AUTO*
> 
> Clones will last less than a second.


Jinchuuriki only needs a second.



> What the gibbering fuck are flashbangs going to do to Terminators?
> 
> They have something called TARGETERS.


Which are still affected by light, fucking idiot.



> Get your head out of your fucking ass and use your shit-filled brain for once.


[/quote]]
Says the dumb-ass that stated chakra cannon will only scratch their paint. Just what the fuck do you know about 40k anyway?



skiboydoggy said:


> Great. He picks off one, maybe two. RPGs on auto kill his face off.


1 guy getting a 25-50% of the enemy wiped out is nothing to scoff at. 



> And I recall Space Marines are bullet timers regardless,


Prove it. 



> being able to snipe speedsters with their bolters at long range and all, meaning they actually outspeed most of Narutoverse casually.


"Snipe speedesters with their bolters at long range" what? I recall one instance where a Space Marine snipes a guy at 200m with a bolter, but he had to lock his arm servos so the accuracy wouldn't be all over the place. I recall Eldar giving Space Marines a hard target, and they're not as fast as Naruto ninjas.



Grrblt said:


> Do space marines have hearing?



Good hearing, in fact. They can kill Orks with their eyes closed. Mind you, Orks are the loud bastards that go "WAAAAAAGH!" before charging into battle.



Endless Mike said:


> Killerbee needs to transform to Bijuu form to use his chakra cannon. And do you really think he would use it in combination with your tactics of having thousands of fodder ninjas swarm the Terminators at close range? He would be taking out his own side. As for having a "range of miles" IIRC the blast was about half a kilometer across. That's hardly miles, and hardly out of range of bolter shots.



Yeah, actually I think I do if all this wank with Terminators steam rolling entire villages happens.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 22, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Jinchuuriki only needs a second.
> 
> 
> Which are still affected by light, fucking idiot.
> ...



A second and he's dead.





Do you see that? It's called a HELMET. Do you see those things that look like eyes? they have things called FILTERS.

More than the fucknut retard I'm replying to.


----------



## Darklyre (Sep 22, 2009)

You can't use flashbangs against helmeted Marines. Their autosenses have the same tech used in current NVGs, which automatically decreases light amplification to compensate for flash effects.

Plus, Marines can't be disoriented from flashbangs due to their physiology. Eldar flashbang effects work because they include a Warp component.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 22, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Great. He picks off one, maybe two. RPGs on auto kill his face off.
> 
> And I recall Space Marines are bullet timers regardless, being able to snipe speedsters with their bolters at long range and all, meaning they actually outspeed most of Narutoverse casually.



Wow, I love how all the people debating against me have no reading comprehension.

Have I not mentioned SPECIFICALLY that he's with an army of fodder ninja who provide distractions for him?

*Again, for the last fuking time, READ THIS:*



> *Hello thousands of fodder ninjas throwing up distractions.
> 
> Good luck finding Kakashi in a group of ninjas before he sends your head into a different dimension.*



How the hell are the terminators going to shoot ONE ninja out of thousands, when they have NO CLUE which one is blowing their heads off?

And as for speed feats, there still haven't been any posted. Everyone CLAIMS they're bullet-timers/supersonic/have supersonic reflexes, but when I ask for quotes/scans, all I get is a bunch of nothing. Until I get that, I'll go by the only piece of evidence that's been posted, which is a game cutscene. In that cutscene, the Space Marines are notably NOT supersonic or have anywhere near supersonic reaction times.
*
I ask again: feats for Terminator reaction time?*




Crimson King said:


> Whoop de fucking doo. He might kill one. Now the rest rip him apart.
> 
> Or hey, they could, you know, shoot him first. they have TARGETERS for a reason.
> 
> And if you're gonna try to neg rep me for tearing apart your shitty excuse of an argument, try having a high rep first.



Targeters let you distinguish which ninja in a group of thousands is using a dimensional-warping jutsu to warp your head off? Since when?

Get some reading comprehension and actually understand my argument please.

And rofl, you're actually raging at a neg-rep. Really tells me how much you have invested in this thread and in these forums and your rep bar.



Endless Mike said:


> Killerbee needs to transform to Bijuu form to use his chakra cannon. And do you really think he would use it in combination with your tactics of having thousands of fodder ninjas swarm the Terminators at close range? He would be taking out his own side. As for having a "range of miles" IIRC the blast was about half a kilometer across. That's hardly miles, and hardly out of range of bolter shots.



Who cares if he takes out his own side, as long as he severely injures/wounds/kills some space marines? This is the entire Narutoverse vs. a squad, Narutoverse could lose thousands of ninjas and still win due to having more fodder to throw around.

His transformation took *2 panels*. It is fast enough that the fodder can cover for him.

I concede that we don't have exact figures for how far Killer Bee's blast travels. It is several city blocks wide, but there is no shot of how far it goes. If we go by "typical" energy blasts, which are much longer than they are wide, then the blast should be several miles, but that is just an assumption about the blast's range.




Crimson King said:


> A second and he's dead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Has the power

Do you see that? That's called a BIJUU CHAKRA CANNON. Do you see those things around Killer Bee? Those are small MOUNTAINS. 

Freaking LOL at a mountain buster not harming terminators when you haven't even given any durability feats for them.


----------



## dr.psycho (Sep 22, 2009)

How will marines deal with Gedou Mazou? It bypasses armor and goes straight for the soul. Has the power

How will they deal with Susano? Or 9 Bijuu?


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 22, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Imma trollin da forums



They shoot Killerbee before he can transform

Plasma>Bijuu cannon that can be stopped by water


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 22, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> A second and he's dead.


Are you saying 4 terminators are going to kill dozens of ninjas with clones, illusions, and other distractions in a single second? 

You're a fucking dumb-ass. Ninjas can travel fast enough to throw off Terminator aim while using common fucking debris to block vision. Yes, they have terror sight, but it's not activated 24/7. 

To finally make you shut the fuck up, Killerbee transforms from behind a hill or some shit, destroys the hill, then casually vaporizes the Terminators. 



Crimson King said:


> They shoot Killerbee before he can transform


No they don't. Their weapons have already been destroyed long before this fight by mook ninjas.



> Plasma>Bijuu cannon that can be stopped by water



Prove that Bijuu cannon can be stopped by water.


Why are you so desperate to have Terminators win? You're not even good at trolling here. "Bijuu cannon that can be stopped by water" yet a fucking mountain cant? Moses does better trolling than your bullshit.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 22, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> They shoot Killerbee before he can transform
> 
> Plasma>Bijuu cannon that can be stopped by water



Except this squad has no Plasma Cannon. Read the fuking OP for god's sake, Jesus Christ.

And are you retarded? I specifically posted the scan of the blast travelling THROUGH Suigetsu's best attempt to block it, and then blowing up a huge tract of land behind him.

Freaking trolls.


----------



## Fang (Sep 22, 2009)

Terminators still have built-in combi-bolters and repeater heavy bolters. I don't know what you guys are talking about genjutsu but since no genjutsu seems to have been shown to be effective against technology, that won't work. 

As for stuff like Bunshins and Kage Bunshins, terror sight is superior to Byakugan or Sharingan when it comes to seeing through that sort of stuff so it won't work there. As for ninja speed, even low level ninjas have been taken down by normal humans in Naruto. Just to be clear though I'm talking about low level fodder ninjas but even throughout Part 1 of Naruto the top tiers weren't established at mach speeds, they really don't get big speed jumps till the later half of Part 2 for the top tiers like Killer Bee being around mach 2.

Now for ninjutsu: elemental stuff like  Katon ninjutsu has been consistantly shown to be wacky magical fire with more properties indicating it works by blasting its opponents with concussive force than actual heat. That wouldn't bother Terminator armor.

Raitons will vary, stuff Raikage and Killer Bee have shown will be a problem. Stuff Sasuke has shown? Pretty bad, best cutting feat he has is slicing apart the tip of a iron kunai when augmenting his blade with the Chidori Nagashi.

Also given how ninjas have been shown to utilizate fast movement/quasi teleporation techniques like Shunshin only to run away or hide, well that isn't too big of an advantage.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 22, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Are you saying 4 terminators are going to kill dozens of ninjas with clones, illusions, and other distractions in a single second?




Yes, they can. Easily. Bolters>>>>fodder


ScreenXSurfer said:


> You're a fucking dumb-ass. Ninjas can travel fast enough to throw off Terminator aim while using common fucking debris to block vision. Yes, they have terror sight, but it's not activated 24/7.



Prove it.


ScreenXSurfer said:


> To finally make you shut the fuck up, Killerbee transforms from behind a hill or some shit, destroys the hill, then casually vaporizes the Terminators.


I don't see prep time being allowed



ScreenXSurfer said:


> No they don't. Their weapons have already been destroyed long before this fight by mook ninjas.



Last I checked, the OP never stated they had weapons in bad condition


ScreenXSurfer said:


> Prove that Bijuu cannon can be stopped by water.



*Cough*SUIGETSU*cough*



ScreenXSurfer said:


> Why are you so desperate to have Terminators win? You're not even good at *trolling* here. "Bijuu cannon that can be stopped by water" yet a fucking mountain cant? Moses does better trolling than your bullshit.


Oh the irony...

I'm not even taking you seriously. I'm just fucking around, tearing apart your shitty arguments.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 22, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> I can't fucking read



Plasma weapons are fare more powerful than Bijuu cannons. Terminators were originally designed to work in plasma generators.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 23, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> Yes, they can. Easily. Bolters>>>>fodder


Wrong argument. Bolters > durability was never under question. Bolter RoF was never under question. How fast the Terminators can move from target to target is under question. Provide feats.



> Prove it.


Space Wolves Omnibus, there are countless times where Terrorsight would have been useful to Ragnar, yet it isn't activated. This includes when a Chaos Ogryn ambushed a comrade and nearly killed him, when he was nearly killed by an assassin, and all the times they use stealth through the city.



> I don't see prep time being allowed


You're an idiot. In a "vs Xverse" thread, "Xverse" will have prep due to obvious geographical conditions. Terminators vs Narutoverse, they arrive in Narutoverse and where are they going to go? It's completely random, but they will have to travel. Terminators aren't fast or stealthy, they're going to be noticed. And given how slow they are, there's going to be days of prep.



> Last I checked, the OP never stated they had weapons in bad condition


Mook ninjas make it that way. I did say by mook ninjas, you blind moron.



> *Cough*SUIGETSU*cough*


I asked for evidence that chakra cannon is stopped by water. If suigetsu stopped it, then the blast would have been contained at Suigetsu. That obviously didn't happen. 



> Oh the irony...
> 
> I'm not even taking you seriously. I'm just fucking around, tearing apart your shitty arguments.


Rofl, go play OPverse vs Narutoverse and leave the Sci-fi debates to the people who read Sci-fi.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 23, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> Plasma weapons are fare more powerful than Bijuu cannons.


More vague waffling. Plasma weapons have varying yields, provide a feat for the plasma weapons utilized by Terminators. Kyuubi's 6-tail chakra cannon has, IIRC, at least a nuke's worth of energy. I'll find the calc in a second. EDIT: *Al-Yasa* So nine times the energy output of Tsar Bomba.


> Terminators were originally designed to work in plasma generators.


Shows how much you don't know. Terminators were never designed to work in plasma generators. The original suit that the armor is based on was. However nothing indicates it's supposed to work in active plasma generators.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 23, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Wrong argument. Bolters > durability was never under question. Bolter RoF was never under question. How fast the Terminators can move from target to target is under question. Provide feats.



So Terminators now need more than 1 second to move their arms to another direction? 


ScreenXSurfer said:


> Space Wolves Omnibus, there are countless times where Terrorsight would have been useful to Ragnar, yet it isn't activated. This includes when a Chaos Ogryn ambushed a comrade and nearly killed him, when he was nearly killed by an assassin, and all the times they use stealth through the city.



Using low-end feats now? OK, let's play that game. All the ninjas need 5 seconds to do anything.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> You're an idiot. In a "vs Xverse" thread, "Xverse" will have prep due to obvious geographical conditions. Terminators vs Narutoverse, they arrive in Narutoverse and where are they going to go? It's completely random, but they will have to travel. Terminators aren't fast or stealthy, they're going to be noticed. And given how slow they are, there's going to be days of prep.



No location was specified. So Terminators on one side of the HBTC, Narutoverse on the other. Fight starts, Terminators open fire. Narutoverse dies.

Mook ninjas make it that way. I did say by mook ninjas, you blind moron.[/QUOTE]

Right, random mooks are suddenly going to know how bolters work and know exactly how to disable them 



ScreenXSurfer said:


> I asked for evidence that chakra cannon is stopped by water. If suigetsu stopped it, then the blast would have been contained at Suigetsu. That obviously didn't happen.


Yet, he managed to take most of it while being WATER.


ScreenXSurfer said:


> Rofl, go play OPverse vs Narutoverse and leave the Sci-fi debates to the people who read Sci-fi.



Go back to your mom and cry about how you can't debate for shit.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 23, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> More vague waffling. Plasma weapons have varying yields, provide a feat for the plasma weapons utilized by Terminators. Kyuubi's 6-tail chakra cannon has, IIRC, at least a nuke's worth of energy. I'll find the calc in a second. EDIT: *Al-Yasa* So nine times the energy output of Tsar Bomba.
> 
> taking calcs from Fuujin?
> 
> ...


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 23, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> So Terminators now need more than 1 second to move their arms to another direction?


Straw man. It will take more than 1 second to move their arms in several different directions while taking accurate aim. Do you think they can spray and pray, and magically hit every target? 



> Using low-end feats now? OK, let's play that game. All the ninjas need 5 seconds to do anything.


How the hell are there low-end feats or high-end feats for fucking terrorsight? And my "low-end feats" () are more consistent than your high end feats wait, you never provided feats. :rofl

If I wanted to only use low-end feats for Space Marines I'd reference to every single Dawn of War Trailer and the Space Marine video game where SM's can't shoot slow charging targets and get their assess handed to them my fodder Orks.



> No location was specified. So Terminators on one side of the HBTC, Narutoverse on the other. Fight starts, Terminators open fire. Narutoverse dies.


"Narutoverse" is a location. 



> Right, random mooks are suddenly going to know how bolters work and know exactly how to disable them


They're going to know to throw bombs at the guns, given that's where all the damage is coming from. People understand what guns do. It's not like you didn't know WTF was going on after the first few seconds of a fight in an action movie.



> Yet, he managed to take most of it while being WATER.


Completely irrelevant to what was posted. Provide evidence that chakra cannons are *stopped* by water.


> Go back to your mom and cry about how you can't debate for shit.



Is that the best you can do? Tweentards on Youtube come up with better insults than this shit. I'm sure everybody heard this bullshit back in middle-school, where mom-subjects were the cookie-cutters of insults.




Crimson King said:


> taking calcs from Fuujin?


Aside from the obvious Appeal to Ridicule fallacy, ignoring the fact that it was the low-end calc smaller than Vynjira's, I still get 3 digit megatons using _any_ figure from that thread. Concession accepted.


> There's your answer. Try again.



Quelsatron is wrong, plain and simple. I went over this a few pages back and nobody contested it.  Now STFU.


----------



## Grrblt (Sep 23, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> Why do you ask?



Because if they do have hearing, Jiraiya would like to introduce them to the world of drooling on the floor.


----------



## Hadesama (Sep 23, 2009)

Rikudou Sennin can take out both factions on his own


----------



## Quelsatron (Sep 23, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Quelsatron is wrong, plain and simple. I went over this a few pages back and nobody contested it.  Now STFU.


I agree with this statement


Grrblt said:


> Because if they do have hearing, Jiraiya would like to introduce them to the world of drooling on the floor.



And sonic genjutsu was never proven to work any way other than the target directly hearing it, unless there is a scan of Itachi or someone going all ringu on some poor schmuck that I am not aware of



> How will marines deal with Gedou Mazou? It bypasses armor and goes straight for the soul. Yes he shed his skin(Look at the lower-left panel)
> 
> How will they deal with Susano? Or 9 Bijuu?


Well, if I was a marine and saw a fuckhuge warpdemon appear from a enemy combatant then I would probably shoot him.


----------



## iander (Sep 23, 2009)

Terminators get destroyed.  There is way too much being thrown at them.  The bijus alone could solo not to mention Susanoo or soul sucking and the vast amount of other hax being thrown their way.  I like 40k too but cmon this is just fanwanking to the extreme.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 23, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Straw man. It will take more than 1 second to move their arms in several different directions while taking accurate aim. Do you think they can spray and pray, and magically hit every target?



With that much people they won't need to aim. They can shoot in their general direction and hit them.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> How the hell are there low-end feats or high-end feats for fucking terrorsight? And my "low-end feats" () are more consistent than your high end feats wait, you never provided feats. :rofl



So you're saying that Naruto character really do need 5 seconds to do anything? Ok, got it.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> If I wanted to only use low-end feats for Space Marines I'd reference to every single Dawn of War Trailer and the Space Marine video game where SM's can't shoot slow charging targets and get their assess handed to them my fodder Orks.



Except those aren't canon. Space Marines are able to hit Harlequins, who can dodge shots. Hm, a bullet-timing feat and space Marines are able to hit them.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> "Narutoverse" is a location.



And...? So the characters are all cramped into one location. 



ScreenXSurfer said:


> They're going to know to throw bombs at the guns, given that's where all the damage is coming from. People understand what guns do. It's not like you didn't know WTF was going on after the first few seconds of a fight in an action movie.



....So, ancient bombs and exploding scrolls are going to destroy Bolters and chainswords. Right. 



ScreenXSurfer said:


> Completely irrelevant to what was posted. Provide evidence that chakra cannons are *stopped* by water.



Suigetsu stopped most of it. He's water.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> Is that the best you can do? Tweentards on Youtube come up with better insults than this shit. I'm sure everybody heard this bullshit back in middle-school, where mom-subjects were the cookie-cutters of insults.



I don't bother spending time thinking of insult for some who has shit for brains. They're too fucking retarded to understanding.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> Aside from the obvious Appeal to Ridicule fallacy, ignoring the fact that it was the low-end calc smaller than Vynjira's, I still get 3 digit megatons using _any_ figure from that thread. Concession accepted.




I see alot of different figures, from 3-10 kt to 3-4 mt.

:faceplam star trek beating Star Wars


ScreenXSurfer said:


> Quelsatron is wrong, plain and simple. I went over this a few pages back and nobody contested it.  Now STFU.





> Terminator armour was developed thousands of years ago by the Adeptus Mechanicus Tech Adepts of Mars. Its design is a blend of Dreadnought armour, standard Marine power armour and heavy suits used by engineers working in the most hostile environments (such as micro-debris plagued orbits or the *radioactive engine cores of stellar frigates*).



Try again.

Also, where are the durability feats for Killerbee's bijuu form? If he lacks any, the cyclone missile launchers take him down.

Edit:Quelsatron, where did you get that "Walking on the sun" thing from? I've never read anything close to that.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 23, 2009)

yeah what I still don't get is the nature of this battle. is everyone in narutoverse in one location or are they in their respective villages.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 23, 2009)

rawrawraw said:


> yeah what I still don't get is the nature of this battle. is everyone in narutoverse in one location or are they in their respective villages.



Past verse fights usually had them all jammed in one place.


----------



## Quelsatron (Sep 23, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> Edit:Quelsatron, where did you get that "Walking on the sun" thing from? I've never read anything close to that.



Not literally walking on the sun, more like surviving at those temperatures if they were to survive in a active plasma reactor(which I'm probably wrong about). You can't even walk on the surface of the sun as you would just fall in


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 23, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> Past verse fights usually had them all jammed in one place.



then if Killer Bee does a chakra blast and the terminator's are in the thick of things, he'd wipe out his side too. and he wouldn't do that with cis on


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 23, 2009)

Crimson King said:


> With that much people they won't need to aim. They can shoot in their general direction and hit them.


No they can't. Space Marines are not capable of randomly shooting in a general direction and hitting a target- they have to aim. This is found in every Space Marine book and codex. The only time your bullshit is supported is when they're fighting Tyranids, who's forces fill up the entire horizon. 



> So you're saying that Naruto character really do need 5 seconds to do anything? Ok, got it.


So you're saying Space Marine's can't shoot slow moving targets less than 10 meters away and bolters are actually small calibre weapons that won't harm Naruto Ninjas? Okay, got it.



> Except those aren't canon.


GW has never issued a statement on canon. 



> Space Marines are able to hit Harlequins, who can dodge shots. Hm, a bullet-timing feat and space Marines are able to hit them.


Prove it.


> And...? So the characters are all cramped into one location.


No they're inside of Narutoverse, on the Ninja continent.



> ....So, ancient bombs and exploding scrolls are going to destroy Bolters and chainswords. Right.


Just rough it up enough to not function. And I'm not talking about chainswords here, only bolters. If the Terminators only have melee on them then it's rape in Narutoverse favor. EDIT: And I just realized that only 5 terminators have ranged weapons, and two of them are heavy weapons with limited ammo. :rofl They run out of ammo and then it's a shooting gallery for Narutoverse.



> Suigetsu stopped most of it.


Prove it.



> I don't bother spending time thinking of insult for some who has shit for brains. They're too fucking retarded to understanding.


So you ask your 8 year old kid brother for advice on how to insult people. 


> I see alot of different figures, from 3-10 kt to 3-4 mt.


No you don't.



> Try again.


Wow, you prove that they're more NBC shielded than other NBC suits. Find where it says active plasma reactor. You can't. Concession accepted.



> Also, where are the durability feats for Killerbee's bijuu form? If he lacks any, the cyclone missile launchers take him down.


Provide feats for cyclone missile launchers. I'm just humoring you btw, the Terminators were already nuked to hell to begin with.


----------



## TasteTheDifference (Sep 23, 2009)

What stops Deva from killing them with Chou Shinra Tensei?  They weigh less than those Frogs that he blasted back.  Even if they aren't hurt directly by the shock wave, I'm pretty sure that they'd suffer trauma, something like whiplash, which they'd be badly hurt or even killed by.

That said I think that or Gedou Mazdou are just about the only things that would work, since they just bypass the armour.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 23, 2009)

Give up ScreenSurfer. CK isn't even arguing valid points anymore, instead just repeating the same "LOL BOLTERS>NARUTO ROFL" statement over and over. He hasn't provided any feats in any of his posts despite both of us repeatedly asking for them. He's a troll, don't feed him anymore. I already have him on ignore.



TWF said:


> Terminators still have built-in combi-bolters and repeater heavy bolters. I don't know what you guys are talking about genjutsu but since no genjutsu seems to have been shown to be effective against technology, that won't work.
> 
> As for stuff like Bunshins and Kage Bunshins, terror sight is superior to Byakugan or Sharingan when it comes to seeing through that sort of stuff so it won't work there. As for ninja speed, even low level ninjas have been taken down by normal humans in Naruto. Just to be clear though I'm talking about low level fodder ninjas but even throughout Part 1 of Naruto the top tiers weren't established at mach speeds, they really don't get big speed jumps till the later half of Part 2 for the top tiers like Killer Bee being around mach 2.
> 
> ...



We already established that Genjutsu wouldn't be effective.

How is Terrorsight superior to Byakugan, which lets you see microscopic points on a person's body and interior?

And, how does Terrorsight differentiate Kage Bushin with actual people when the bushin has a real body that bleeds, has a mind of its own, and no connection to the original?

Which low level ninja are you talking about that got taken out by civilians?

Most jutsu wouldn't be of very much use against Terminators. Only Gedo Mazo, Kamui, bijuu chakra cannons, and possibly FRS/Deidara's big bombs will be of use against them.

Ninja have used teleportation techniques offensively plenty of times. Yondaime comes to mind immediately. There are other people besides him who use Shunshin to attack, but he's the most obvious example.



Quelsatron said:


> I agree with this statement
> 
> 
> And sonic genjutsu was never proven to work any way other than the target directly hearing it, unless there is a scan of Itachi or someone going all ringu on some poor schmuck that I am not aware of
> ...



No Genjutsu has been shown to work through tech that amplifies sight/sound. Genjutsu isn't a factor in this fight, the pro-Naruto side admitted this pages ago.

Gedo Mazo is a bit easy to spot, especially when it connects to Pein with the spikes. However, again, the fodder ninja/bushin can throw up distractions/walls/take bolter rounds to the face and somewhat protect Pein. 

However, Kamui is incredibly hard to spot. Nothing comes out of Kakashi's eye to give away his position. A hole in reality just appears where he looks, and takes your head off.

Bijuu chakra cannons are likewise hard to spot if the jinchuriki hide themselves well. KN4 is very small. Hiding behind a big boulder would conceal his attack well. 



rawrawraw said:


> yeah what I still don't get is the nature of this battle. is everyone in narutoverse in one location or are they in their respective villages.



Good question. The OP has long abandoned this thread, since he hasn't posted in a while. I say we should debate each scenario differently.

If it's the whole verse at once, then all characters past and present should be alive. 

If it's each village, then only currently alive characters would logically be available. 



rawrawraw said:


> then if Killer Bee does a chakra blast and the terminator's are in the thick of things, he'd wipe out his side too. and he wouldn't do that with cis on



Again, the Terminators are outnumbered hundreds to one. Narutoverse can afford to sacrifice waves of fodder to Killer Bee's cannon as long as the terminators take damage/die as well.



TasteTheDifference said:


> What stops Deva from killing them with Chou Shinra Tensei?  They weigh less than those Frogs that he blasted back.  Even if they aren't hurt directly by the shock wave, I'm pretty sure that they'd suffer trauma, something like whiplash, which they'd be badly hurt or even killed by.
> 
> That said I think that or Gedou Mazdou are just about the only things that would work, since they just bypass the armour.



Yea good point. He wouldn't need to charge up his Chou Shinra Tensei. His normal one knocked 3 Gamabunta-sized frogs hundreds of feet into the air.

He waves his hand, the whole squad gets thrown up in the air. While they're in the air, they have no control over their direction, so they can't aim well. They're also out in the open in midair, so Gedo Mazo/bijuu chakra cannon/Kamui have easy targets.


----------



## Fang (Sep 23, 2009)

Only Taijuu Kage Bunshins have minds and corporeal bodies. Normal bunshins do not, and only Naruto has the stamina and chakra to spam them.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 23, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Who cares if he takes out his own side, as long as he severely injures/wounds/kills some space marines? This is the entire Narutoverse vs. a squad, Narutoverse could lose thousands of ninjas and still win due to having more fodder to throw around.
> 
> His transformation took *2 panels*. It is fast enough that the fodder can cover for him.



A panel is a measure of time now? I can show you comics where 1 panel = thousands of years.



> I concede that we don't have exact figures for how far Killer Bee's blast travels. It is several city blocks wide, but there is no shot of how far it goes. If we go by "typical" energy blasts, which are much longer than they are wide, then the blast should be several miles, but that is just an assumption about the blast's range.



The aftermath was shown. The damage was roughly spherical. Anyway, the space marines could just teleport out of the way.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> Space Wolves Omnibus, there are countless times where Terrorsight would have been useful to Ragnar, yet it isn't activated. This includes when a Chaos Ogryn ambushed a comrade and nearly killed him, when he was nearly killed by an assassin, and all the times they use stealth through the city.



Isn't that just PIS, like how the Flash doesn't beat all of his enemies in 0.00001 seconds?



ScreenXSurfer said:


> More vague waffling. Plasma weapons have varying yields, provide a feat for the plasma weapons utilized by Terminators. Kyuubi's 6-tail chakra cannon has, IIRC, at least a nuke's worth of energy. I'll find the calc in a second. EDIT: biar So nine times the energy output of Tsar Bomba.



That calc fails since it assumed all of the rock was vaporized, and there is no evidence for that.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> They're going to know to throw bombs at the guns, given that's where all the damage is coming from. People understand what guns do. It's not like you didn't know WTF was going on after the first few seconds of a fight in an action movie.



If I had never seen a gun before, and I saw someone shoot something else, all I would know is that there was a loud sound, and a hole suddenly appeared in the target. I wouldn't know how it happened.



TasteTheDifference said:


> What stops Deva from killing them with Chou Shinra Tensei?  They weigh less than those Frogs that he blasted back.  Even if they aren't hurt directly by the shock wave, I'm pretty sure that they'd suffer trauma, something like whiplash, which they'd be badly hurt or even killed by.



Shooting him when he flies up in the air to use it?


----------



## RoomBurnerZ (Sep 23, 2009)

Space marines lose because they lack hatred


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 23, 2009)

TWF said:


> Only Taijuu Kage Bunshins have minds and corporeal bodies. Normal bunshins do not, and only Naruto has the stamina and chakra to spam them.



Uh, that's not how it went in the manga. 

Kakashi has himself and Naruto both make 1 Kage Bushin each, and go into the forest. Then they play Rock/Paper/Scissors, and Naruto successfully absorbs the knowledge.

He doesn't need to make a mass amount of Kage Bushin.

Regardless, even if Naruto is the only one who can produce Taijuu Kage Bushin, there's still thousands of actual fodder ninja to make distractions.



Endless Mike said:


> A panel is a measure of time now? I can show you comics where 1 panel = thousands of years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The page shows Karin's reaction to the transformation in a panel. This means that it didn't take long lengths of time, since Karin has a notable expression of surprise, and there was one of those "surprise" sparks near her head.

The aftermath shot never shows what's in front of Killer Bee, only what's behind him.

High tier Ninja have super-sonic reactions. Even if they can't react to the shot, they could definitely make out a projectile.

Not to mention, bolters have tracer rounds. 

Pein doesn't need to fly up in the air to use normal Shinra Tensei, and a normal one is plenty to send the whole squad flying.

EDIT: Also, how do personal teleporters in WH40k work on the user's part? Can they teleport accurately even when disoriented, like after they're in the air from Shinra Tensei?


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 23, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> A panel is a measure of time now? I can show you comics where 1 panel = thousands of years.


Panels can be roughly measured by how quickly the characters react. 


> The aftermath was shown. The damage was roughly spherical. Anyway, the space marines could just teleport out of the way.


I would like to have feats for Terminator teleporter. I know they can't just teleport as much as they want as fast as they want.



> Isn't that just PIS, like how the Flash doesn't beat all of his enemies in 0.00001 seconds?


No, it isn't PIS. PIS would be not having a helmet on and being head shotted. This shows us that Terrorsight is not always activated.



> That calc fails since it assumed all of the rock was vaporized, and there is no evidence for that.


Okay Endless Mike, just where do you think the dirt went. Explain where all the dirt below ground level vanished to. Because it wasn't piled up on the side, it wasn't located in any of the screen panels, and it wasn't pushed aside a la impact crater. And any amount of energy that moves that much dirt will require a vast amount of energy. Don't count on Terminators being impaled by Genestealers to survive it.


> If I had never seen a gun before, and I saw someone shoot something else, all I would know is that there was a loud sound, and a hole suddenly appeared in the target. I wouldn't know how it happened.


Okay, well when you have dozens of your fellows falling to these guns, you get an understanding of cause and effect. Especially when only a few factors change before and after them being splattered. 1. There was a loud noise coming from the unknown device. 2. A flash erupted from the unknown device. 3. The unknown device was pointing in the direction of your friend. 4. The enemy's hands are all over this unknown device. People are not stupid, they can connect the dots.



> Shooting him when he flies up in the air to use it?


With what? The assault cannon or the cyclonic missiles? The first is a close range anti-infantry weapon that does not have the range of a bolter or the ability to destroy heavy armor. It's also has a few defects, including jamming and overheating, if Lexicanum is to be believed. The second is meant for anti-armor, which won't be used on a single flying person.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 23, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> The page shows Karin's reaction to the transformation in a panel. This means that it didn't take long lengths of time, since Karin has a notable expression of surprise, and there was one of those "surprise" sparks near her head.



Yeah, that's not vague or anything.



> The aftermath shot never shows what's in front of Killer Bee, only what's behind him.



Heads Up.

Looks pretty straightforward to me.



> High tier Ninja have super-sonic reactions. Even if they can't react to the shot, they could definitely make out a projectile.



Keyword: *High-tier*. There are what, a few dozen of those guys in total?



ScreenXSurfer said:


> No, it isn't PIS. PIS would be not having a helmet on and being head shotted. This shows us that Terrorsight is not always activated.



But if there it was not activated when there was a good reason to activate it, that's PIS.



> Okay Endless Mike, just where do you think the dirt went. Explain where all the dirt below ground level vanished to. Because it wasn't piled up on the side, it wasn't located in any of the screen panels, and it wasn't pushed aside a la impact crater.



How about you explain why there wasn't a cloud of superheated vapor covering the area for multiple kilometers in every direction, as would have happened if it was all vaporized? 



> Okay, well when you have dozens of your fellows falling to these guns, you get an understanding of cause and effect. Especially when only a few factors change before and after them being splattered. 1. There was a loud noise coming from the unknown device. 2. A flash erupted from the unknown device. 3. The unknown device was pointing in the direction of your friend. 4. The enemy's hands are all over this unknown device. People are not stupid, they can connect the dots.



They're going to do this while they are getting ripped apart completely?



> With what? The assault cannon or the cyclonic missiles? The first is a close range anti-infantry weapon that does not have the range of a bolter or the ability to destroy heavy armor. It's also has a few defects, including jamming and overheating, if Lexicanum is to be believed. The second is meant for anti-armor, which won't be used on a single flying person.



Just bolters would do.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 23, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> We already established that Genjutsu wouldn't be effective.
> 
> How is Terrorsight superior to Byakugan, which lets you see microscopic points on a person's body and interior?


Wtf are you talking about? The Byakugan can only see the chakra circulation inside a persons body. Where are you getting this microscopic points on a persons body shit from? As well, a normal space marines body is so messed up from a regular humans body that it doesn't make a difference.


> And, how does Terrorsight differentiate Kage Bushin with actual people when the bushin has a real body that bleeds, has a mind of its own, and no connection to the original?


Proof of this please.



> Most jutsu wouldn't be of very much use against Terminators. Only Gedo Mazo, Kamui, bijuu chakra cannons, and possibly FRS/Deidara's big bombs will be of use against them.


Gedo Mazo and Kamui would never be used since the user would be shredded to bit by bolter fire so they don't matter. The chakra cannon is the big threat here and I've said Killer Bee wouldn't use it if it's going to wipe out everyone on his side.


> Ninja have used teleportation techniques offensively plenty of times. Yondaime comes to mind immediately. There are other people besides him who use Shunshin to attack, but he's the most obvious example.


Shunshin isn't teleportation though, and you forget the Terminators can teleport as well. Terminators react to bullet-timing eldars anyways so nowhere is getting close to them without being shredded to bits of pulp.




> No Genjutsu has been shown to work through tech that amplifies sight/sound. Genjutsu isn't a factor in this fight, the pro-Naruto side admitted this pages ago.


Prayers are more than enough with a Chaplain with them, to ward off any mindfuckery. The fact that Terminators don't go insane looking at a Greater Daemon and ripping their insides out is a feat of its own.



> However, Kamui is incredibly hard to spot. Nothing comes out of Kakashi's eye to give away his position. A hole in reality just appears where he looks, and takes your head off.


Good thing it worked on Deidara right? Not.



> Bijuu chakra cannons are likewise hard to spot if the jinchuriki hide themselves well. KN4 is very small. Hiding behind a big boulder would conceal his attack well.


are you kidding me? naruto transforming will stick out like a sore thumb.


> Again, the Terminators are outnumbered hundreds to one. Narutoverse can afford to sacrifice waves of fodder to Killer Bee's cannon as long as the terminators take damage/die as well.


Waves of fodder? How much people do you think there are in naruto?



> He waves his hand, the whole squad gets thrown up in the air. While they're in the air, they have no control over their direction, so they can't aim well. They're also out in the open in midair, so Gedo Mazo/bijuu chakra cannon/Kamui have easy targets.


Why would they get thrown up in the air again? Also these are vertern space marines with centuries even millenia's of service. They'll rip through ninja's just the same in the air or on the ground.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 24, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Yeah, that's not vague or anything.


It's not. Character gets surprised and has no time to react to the transformation. None of them do, in fact, even though he would have been vulnerable if it took longer than a few seconds.



> look what happened next
> 
> Looks pretty straightforward to me.


Notice the hills all over the place we're missing as shown in the aftermath. 




Endless Mike said:


> But if there it was not activated when there was a good reason to activate it, that's PIS.


Why is it PIS? Do you know the specifics of Terrorsight better than a Space Marine? Do you know better when and when not to use it?



> How about you explain why there wasn't a cloud of superheated vapor covering the area for multiple kilometers in every direction, as would have happened if it was all vaporized?


Because it was blown into the atmosphere, as that is what would have happened. 

Because if it wasn't vaporized, and it wasn't blown apart in chunks, it was magically teleported away. Okay. Marines are magically teleported into oblivion.




> They're going to do this while they are getting ripped apart completely?


With two autocannons? Yeah they will. 



> Just bolters would do.


There aren't bolters in this thread. Autocannons and cyclonic missile launchers with the bulk being pure melee.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 24, 2009)

rawrawraw said:


> Wtf are you talking about? The Byakugan can only see the chakra circulation inside a persons body. Where are you getting this microscopic points on a persons body shit from? As well, a normal space marines body is so messed up from a regular humans body that it doesn't make a difference.



WTF are YOU talking about? Byakugan allows you to see Tenketsu, microscopic chakra openings in a person's body. Jesus Christ, if you don't know the material don't argue against me.

And who the hell cares about Space Marines' bodies? The reason I brought up Byakugan and Sharingan is because TWF claimed Terrorsight was better than those two techniques, not because I claimed looking inside a Space Marine's body is going to be useful. Reading comprehension please.



rawrawraw said:


> Proof of this please.



I already gave proof earlier in the thread. If you're not going to read my responses don't bother arguing.


> Gedo Mazo and Kamui would never be used since the user would be shredded to bit by bolter fire so they don't matter. The chakra cannon is the big threat here and I've said Killer Bee wouldn't use it if it's going to wipe out everyone on his side.



Already addressed this NUMEROUS times earlier. You are pretty bad at reading.



> *Again, for the last fuking time, READ THIS:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...





rawrawraw said:


> Shunshin isn't teleportation though, and you forget the Terminators can teleport as well. Terminators react to bullet-timing eldars anyways so nowhere is getting close to them without being shredded to bits of pulp.



Proof of reaction speeds? I've asked time and time again, and all you do is just spout the same bullshit back to me without any evidence whatsoever.



rawrawraw said:


> Prayers are more than enough with a Chaplain with them, to ward off any mindfuckery. The fact that Terminators don't go insane looking at a Greater Daemon and ripping their insides out is a feat of its own.



Um ok? I already admitted Genjutsu wouldn't be of use, wtf do you want from me? More inane rambling. 



rawrawraw said:


> Good thing it worked on Deidara right? Not.



Good thing it worked on Deidara's suicide bushin, and on Pein's attacks. Way to cherry pick feats that support your claims. Kakashi's Kamui is accurate and fast by the current chapter of the manga.



rawrawraw said:


> are you kidding me? naruto transforming will stick out like a sore thumb.



So? Bijuu cannons are the least subtle of Narutoverse's attacks. You still haven't come up with a way to counter Kakashi backed by fodder ninja. All you keep doing is rehashing your same tired argument which I've already countered over and over again.


rawrawraw said:


> Waves of fodder? How much people do you think there are in naruto?



An entire continent's worth?



rawrawraw said:


> Why would they get thrown up in the air again? Also these are vertern space marines with centuries even millenia's of service. They'll rip through ninja's just the same in the air or on the ground.



WTF do you mean why would they get thrown into the air? Pein casually sent 3 Gamabunta-sized frogs flying several hundred feet into the air with a wave of his hand. Why would the squad NOT go flying?

And it's really hard to aim when you have no control over the direction you're facing. It has nothing to do with how much experience you have. But then again, this is just another example of you rehashing previous statements when you have nothing to counter Shinra Tensei sending your squad into the air, vulnerable.

So far I've provided all the feats and evidence, and all you've done is ignore all my counterpoints and spout BS about Space Marines surviving in plasma reactors, having super sonic reflexes, and tanking everything Narutoverse has. Show some feats, or you're going up on the ignore list next to Crimson King.


----------



## Quelsatron (Sep 24, 2009)

RoomBurnerZ said:


> Space marines lose because they lack hatred



Oh belive me, if there is one thing that space marines lack it's certainly not hatred


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## TasteTheDifference (Sep 24, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Shooting him when he flies up in the air to use it?



Why would they kill Deva as opposed to any of the other creatures or ninja the entire verse would likely be sending against the marines?  One man in a black cloak, even a floating one, wouldn't be conspicuous against a backdrop of giant Birds, Rhinos, Frogs etc.   Besides, the Naruto-verse should at least be able to come up with a plan to distract 5-10 men for a few seconds. :/


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 24, 2009)

I'm as big a 40k fan as any, but Termies can't solo universes that can alter landscape. I can see nothing they can do to get out of something like Swamp of the Underworld or Dotons of that fashion. Just burying them so that they can't move would be enough.

This isn't downplaying Termies (I do recall writing Grey Knights defeating the Jedi Temple), but this is a skill-set disadvantage, and Termies have been specifically noted multiple times for their more ponderous speed.

And to clarify something I saw earlier (I skipped through most of this thread), Termies do not carry enough ammunition to take out "Thousands of Orks". Terminators are a Strike Force within a Strike Force; they're meant to hit hard, then get out (hence why they are often teleported in). They do not carry nearly enough ammunition to take on that many Orks. Hell, they'd probably run out of ammo against a hundred or so, depending on their weapon load-out.


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2009)

That was movie only Jedi that they beat.


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 24, 2009)

TWF said:


> That was movie only Jedi that they beat.



Eh, I'd give them a chance against the original "Clone Wars" cartoon Jedi. They are equipped to take on pskyers who are of similar levels.

Book Jedi, though, are stupidly powerful. Seriously, time travel?


----------



## Fang (Sep 24, 2009)

If your talking about Vector, that was suppose to be Star Wars version of Civil War which crossed over Empire, Rebellion, and KoTOR.

As for Clone Wars era Jedi, which is rather an accurate description of thousands of Force Users policing the entire galaxy, I doubt it. Windu was capable of leaping multiple kilometers, TKing around hundreds of tons of rubble and debris, and punching through heavily armored SB2s.

EU Luke could probably solo a Grey Knight company with little effort.


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## Sindri (Sep 24, 2009)

Guy Gardner said:


> I'm as big a 40k fan as any, but Termies can't solo universes that can alter landscape. I can see nothing they can do to get out of something like Swamp of the Underworld or Dotons of that fashion. Just burying them so that they can't move would be enough.
> 
> This isn't downplaying Termies (I do recall writing Grey Knights defeating the Jedi Temple), but this is a skill-set disadvantage, and Termies have been specifically noted multiple times for their more ponderous speed.
> 
> And to clarify something I saw earlier (I skipped through most of this thread), Termies do not carry enough ammunition to take out "Thousands of Orks". Terminators are a Strike Force within a Strike Force; they're meant to hit hard, then get out (hence why they are often teleported in). They do not carry nearly enough ammunition to take on that many Orks. Hell, they'd probably run out of ammo against a hundred or so, depending on their weapon load-out.



This i like 40k alot more than Naruto but c'mon against the whole verse? the sheer numbers would be too much.  The main problem the Naruto verse is going to have is getting through their armour cause half the things people have mentioned just won't work, the chakra cannon might that's if the Chaplin's Rosarius doesn't negate/deflect it.  Now if this was the villages one after another then the outcome would probably be in the Terminators favor.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 24, 2009)

TWF said:


> EU Luke could probably solo a Grey Knight company with little effort.


Only if you remove PIS and CIS. Might as well not even call it EU luke then. Call it OBD Supreme Jedi shell vs. X


----------



## Fang (Sep 24, 2009)

PIS has nothing to do with it. CIS might but current Luke still has new abilities like teleporting, massive telepathy and empathic abilities, TKing star destroyers, speed, Shatterpoints, ect...

I don't see Grey Knights surviving TK from a guy who snaps apart city size warships which on his part from the author is described as "like snapping the spine of a branch with a thought".


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 24, 2009)

TasteTheDifference said:


> Why would they kill Deva as opposed to any of the other creatures or ninja the entire verse would likely be sending against the marines?  One man in a black cloak, even a floating one, wouldn't be conspicuous against a backdrop of giant Birds, Rhinos, Frogs etc.   Besides, the Naruto-verse should at least be able to come up with a plan to distract 5-10 men for a few seconds. :/



Deva wouldn't even have to use Chou Shinra Tensei. The normal technique, which he can execute with a wave of his hand, send Gamabunta and 2 other giant frogs flying hundreds of feet into the air. 



Guy Gardner said:


> I'm as big a 40k fan as any, but Termies can't solo universes that can alter landscape. I can see nothing they can do to get out of something like Swamp of the Underworld or Dotons of that fashion. Just burying them so that they can't move would be enough.
> 
> This isn't downplaying Termies (I do recall writing Grey Knights defeating the Jedi Temple), but this is a skill-set disadvantage, and Termies have been specifically noted multiple times for their more ponderous speed.
> 
> And to clarify something I saw earlier (I skipped through most of this thread), Termies do not carry enough ammunition to take out "Thousands of Orks". Terminators are a Strike Force within a Strike Force; they're meant to hit hard, then get out (hence why they are often teleported in). They do not carry nearly enough ammunition to take on that many Orks. Hell, they'd probably run out of ammo against a hundred or so, depending on their weapon load-out.



Yea, since you skipped most of the thread, you wouldn't know this, but we already established that without personal teleporters the terminators get bent over and raped by people like Gaara and Jiraiya. So, we stipulated that this was a squad WITH teleporters.

The question now is how durable/fast are terminators. Only one feat has been provided for durability, in that a terminator was stepped on by a titan and lived. This feat isn't that amazing, since it just means terminator armor is stronger than the ground the guy was standing on. No feats have been provided for terminator reaction speed/aiming speed/melee speed.

As of right now, the Naruto side's path to victory is to use either thousands of fodder or various bushin(kage/suna/miza/etc.) to distract the squad while bijuu charge their chakra cannons, Pein gets Gedo Mazo ready, and Kakashi prepares Kamui. Naruto's FRS and Deidara's various explosions can also be used, since durability of the terminators hasn't been provided.

The WH40k side's counter to this strategy is to repeat over and over that "BOLTERS > NARUTO LULS" without any specific tactics. Nor have they provided any feats to support their claims about the terminators. 



Sindri said:


> This i like 40k alot more than Naruto but c'mon against the whole verse? the sheer numbers would be too much.  The main problem the Naruto verse is going to have is getting through their armour cause half the things people have mentioned just won't work, the chakra cannon might that's if the Chaplin's Rosarius doesn't negate/deflect it.  Now if this was the villages one after another then the outcome would probably be in the Terminators favor.



Can the Rozarius deflect/absorb attacks from Titans? Because that's how much output the Bijuu Chakra Cannons have. And even if the Rozarius can protect the Chaplain, what about his teammates? They would have to stand directly behind the Chaplain, or get hit by the energy that's sliding around the Rozarius' field. 

Besides, Pein could just Shinra Tensei the whole squad into the air. How's the Chaplain supposed to protect his teammates now, when he has no control over which direction he's going?

Also, like I've said before, chakra cannons are the most obvious and least deadly of the attacks available to Narutoverse. Gedo Mazo, Kamui, and perhaps FRS and Deidara's biggest bombs could do that same job as chakra cannons, and are much less obvious/must harder to spot coming.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 24, 2009)

TWF said:


> PIS has nothing to do with it. CIS might but current Luke still has new abilities like teleporting, massive telepathy and empathic abilities, TKing star destroyers, speed, Shatterpoints, ect...


CIS most definitely. I spoke to soon when I said PIS, SW PIS seems to be centered on space ships.



madcow3005 said:


> Deva wouldn't even have to use Chou Shinra Tensei. The normal technique, which he can execute with a wave of his hand, send Gamabunta and 2 other giant frogs flying hundreds of feet into the air.


Likely wouldn't kill them, tbh. A Grey Knight Master being thrown into the upper atmosphere by a Greater Daemon survived, and killed the Daemon.


> The question now is how durable/fast are terminators. Only one feat has been provided for durability, in that a terminator was stepped on by a titan and lived. This feat isn't that amazing, since it just means terminator armor is stronger than the ground the guy was standing on. No feats have been provided for terminator reaction speed/aiming speed/melee speed.


He was pretty screwed up by it as well.



> The WH40k side's counter to this strategy is to repeat over and over that "BOLTERS > NARUTO LULS" without any specific tactics. Nor have they provided any feats to support their claims about the terminators.


QFT. Popularity and spam-trolling seems to decide who wins and who loses among some in the OBD.


----------



## Fang (Sep 24, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> CIS most definitely. I spoke to soon when I said PIS, SW PIS seems to be centered on space ships.



I know.



> Likely wouldn't kill them, tbh. A Grey Knight Master being thrown into the upper atmosphere by a Greater Daemon survived, and killed the Daemon.



He wasn't actually thrown into it per say IRRC, and he survived thanks to his armor and landing on a shitload of corpses. He still died, and so did his entire company for that matter.



> He was pretty screwed up by it as well.



edit: I thought you were talking about EU Luke for a second before noticing you meant Deva Pain.

Also that Deva Pain feat against Gamabunta and his brothers is still contested. A lot of people hold onto the fact that since the summons are magical creatures, you can't accurately claim that they're made like normal animals.

Take that as you will.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 24, 2009)

TWF said:


> Also that Deva Pain feat against Gamabunta and his brothers is still contested. A lot of people hold onto the fact that since the summons are magical creatures, you can't accurately claim that they're made like normal animals.
> 
> Take that as you will.



Well I can show the Toads sinking below the water, showing they have a density higher than water. That's higher than real life toads. Given their volume, that's all that you really need.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 24, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> WTF are YOU talking about? Byakugan allows you to see Tenketsu, microscopic chakra openings in a person's body. Jesus Christ, if you don't know the material don't argue against me.
> 
> And who the hell cares about Space Marines' bodies? The reason I brought up Byakugan and Sharingan is because TWF claimed Terrorsight was better than those two techniques, not because I claimed looking inside a Space Marine's body is going to be useful. Reading comprehension please.


You just answered your own fucking question. The Tenketsu points are on keirakurei which is in a fucking chakra circulation system, which the Terminators don't fucking have. Are you born stupid or what.



> Already addressed this NUMEROUS times earlier. You are pretty bad at reading.


No you're underestimating the fucking Terminators. 3 of them have shoulder-mounted cyclone launchers. When you have a thousand ninja's in a clustered area when a cyclone missile detonates what the fuck do you think happens. 1 ninja dies? And 2 of them have Assault cannons. Terminators can fire them on the move with pinpoint accuracy and they spit around 250 rounds per second. So don't give me this bullshit about Kakashi getting even a second to use his Kamui before he torso explodes. Add in Storm Bolters which fire 2x the rate of normal Boltguns which rip through power armor, so 1 bolt round might even rip through a couple of ninja's before detonating and killing more ninjas.
Not to mention the fact that they can see out for miles and their power armor adds various imaging system and depending on the chapters, like the Space Wolves, they can identify a person by smell alone.



> Proof of reaction speeds? I've asked time and time again, and all you do is just spout the same bullshit back to me without any evidence whatsoever.


In Brothers of the Snake, Praid, a newbie space marine was moving at super-sonic speeds killing Dark Eldar. 
Space Marines also casually disappear from human sight.
Some of them are bullet-timers and by this I mean dodging bolter fire but most aren't. Besides they don't need to dodge much.



> Um ok? I already admitted Genjutsu wouldn't be of use, wtf do you want from me? More inane rambling.


Then don't bring that shit up again.




> Good thing it worked on Deidara's suicide bushin, and on Pein's attacks. Way to cherry pick feats that support your claims. Kakashi's Kamui is accurate and fast by the current chapter of the manga.


Way to cherry pick yourself. But what you forgot to mention was that the chakra used is propotional to the mass of the object. How heavy do you think that little missile from Pain was? Certainly nowhere near the mass of even a regular space marines head. A regular space marine without power armor already weighs 700-800 pounds, with armor they weigh an extra 1-1.2 tons depending on the type of armor. Terminator armor is much more dense and heavy than normal power armor what with adamantium components and the extra muscle wiring. Kamui will more than likely exhaust all of Kakshi's chakra and it won't even do anything.




> An entire continent's worth?


 Which is about a thousand maybe 2000 ninja's. you can't obviously expect there to be millions of ninja's right?
Which brings me to an official fluff on marines where 5 Terminators stood behind in a ravine to hold off a massive waaaaghhh in which they killed hundreds of thousands or even millions of orcs before they succumbed.



> WTF do you mean why would they get thrown into the air? Pein casually sent 3 Gamabunta-sized frogs flying several hundred feet into the air with a wave of his hand. Why would the squad NOT go flying?
> 
> And it's really hard to aim when you have no control over the direction you're facing. It has nothing to do with how much experience you have. But then again, this is just another example of you rehashing previous statements when you have nothing to counter Shinra Tensei sending your squad into the air, vulnerable.
> 
> So far I've provided all the feats and evidence, and all you've done is ignore all my counterpoints and spout BS about Space Marines surviving in plasma reactors, having super sonic reflexes, and tanking everything Narutoverse has. Show some feats, or you're going up on the ignore list next to Crimson King.


Wait are you referring to this: 2
2
Cause 1. The Terminators would be nowhere near him.
2. I would hardly call Shinra Tensei a casual attack but whatever floats your boat.
3. Anti-tank rockets bounce of Terminator armor and that's not even adding the energy fields that surround them being generated from their Crux Terminatus.

And again, it's really not hard to aim when you're a vertern space marine with enhanced reflexes, senses, everything and add in the fact that you've been in every possible war scenario x100. If you think combat experience, especially the amount Terminators have, won't matter in this fight, you're fucking wrong.

And how is it that a Terminator surviving being stepped on by a Warlord Titan no less, surviving in a plasma reactor core, or disappearing from Guardsmen sights BS? Is it BS because you just can't believe it. It's nowhere near BS that Terminator armor can tank everything Narutoverse has to throw at them if you've even read one Space Marine chapter book. Face it, you know absolutely nothing about Space Marines, you're the one that's spouting profuse amounts of BS on a subject you know jack-shit.


----------



## madcow3005 (Sep 25, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> CIS most definitely. I spoke to soon when I said PIS, SW PIS seems to be centered on space ships.
> 
> 
> Likely wouldn't kill them, tbh. A Grey Knight Master being thrown into the upper atmosphere by a Greater Daemon survived, and killed the Daemon.
> ...



Shinra Tensei's purpose isn't to kill the Terminators.

Its purpose is to knock the whole squad into the air, where they have a harder time aiming and has no cover from whatever Narutoverse chooses to hit them with.

In the air, they're perfect targets for bijuu cannon, Gedo Mazo, Kamui, C3, and FRS. The Chaplain can't protect his squad with the Rozarius because they can't hide behind him in the air.



rawrawraw said:


> You just answered your own fucking question. The Tenketsu points are on keirakurei which is in a fucking chakra circulation system, which the Terminators don't fucking have. Are you born stupid or what.



Wow Really? I like how you quote my post which specifically says that I never claimed Byakugan/Sharingan to be useful against Terminators, then go on to state that I claimed Byakugan/Sharingan would be useful against Terminators. Apparently you're so retarded you can't even understand when No means No, and actually think No means Yes.

Go back and actually read the exchange I had with TWF where I brought Sharingan/Byakugan into the discussion. He claimed that Terrorsight could tell a Kage Bushin from a real person, and was superior to Sharingan/Byakugan, which couldn't do this. I then asked how Terrorsight could be superior to Byakugan, which allows you to see microscopic points of chakra openings inside a person's body. 

*Never have I claimed that Byakugan/Sharingan would be useful against Space Marines. What I did claim is that Terrorsight is NOT superior to those two eye techniques.*



rawrawraw said:


> No you're underestimating the fucking Terminators. 3 of them have shoulder-mounted cyclone launchers. When you have a thousand ninja's in a clustered area when a cyclone missile detonates what the fuck do you think happens. 1 ninja dies? And 2 of them have Assault cannons. Terminators can fire them on the move with pinpoint accuracy and they spit around 250 rounds per second. So don't give me this bullshit about Kakashi getting even a second to use his Kamui before he torso explodes. Add in Storm Bolters which fire 2x the rate of normal Boltguns which rip through power armor, so 1 bolt round might even rip through a couple of ninja's before detonating and killing more ninjas.
> Not to mention the fact that they can see out for miles and their power armor adds various imaging system and depending on the chapters, like the Space Wolves, they can identify a person by smell alone.



Yes, they immediately know to target Kakashi first in an army of thousands of ninja, even when he's not doing anything special that they can see.

Kakashi hides some distance away and pops a head off. Since nothing comes out of his eye giving away his location, the squad has no way to know it's him doing it. Instead of targeting him, the Space Marines target the giant Bijuu, and Gedo Mazo, and some of the more threatening fodder ninja like Yamato, who's busy making forests. In this way, Kakashi has more than enough time to kill multiple terminators.



rawrawraw said:


> In Brothers of the Snake, Praid, a newbie space marine was moving at super-sonic speeds killing Dark Eldar.
> Space Marines also casually disappear from human sight.
> Some of them are bullet-timers and by this I mean dodging bolter fire but most aren't. Besides they don't need to dodge much.



Narutoverse mid-tiers like Kakashi casually disappear from sight. And give me the exact quote that shows him moving at super-sonic speeds.

Also, if Praid is a newbie space marine and he can move faster than sound, all space marines that are more experienced/faster than him should be able to dodge bolters. Yet, you state that most marines can't dodge bolter fire. This is a contradictory statement.



rawrawraw said:


> Then don't bring that shit up again.



I was agreeing with the person I was replying to. Jesus Christ, lack of reading comprehension is rampant in your posts. Do you even read anything I write, or just glance at the first two words and start pounding away on your keyboard?



rawrawraw said:


> Way to cherry pick yourself. But what you forgot to mention was that the chakra used is propotional to the mass of the object. How heavy do you think that little missile from Pain was? Certainly nowhere near the mass of even a regular space marines head. A regular space marine without power armor already weighs 700-800 pounds, with armor they weigh an extra 1-1.2 tons depending on the type of armor. Terminator armor is much more dense and heavy than normal power armor what with adamantium components and the extra muscle wiring. Kamui will more than likely exhaust all of Kakshi's chakra and it won't even do anything.



How exactly am I cherrypicking when I'm using Kakashi's latest feats from the manga, and you're the one claiming he can't hit a terminator because he failed to hit Deidara, which was earlier on in the manga?

Going by your terms, Goku can't destroy the planet because even though at the end of the manga he could, in the first chapter he can't planet-bust. Good job.

And you assume that chakra used is proportional to mass transported. It could just as easily be chakra used is proportional to distance away from target, or how much chakra the target has, etc.

Kakashi has warped away a suicide explosion bushin that looked and weighed as much as Deidara himself. Is a terminator's head more massive than Deidara's entire body now?



> Which is about a thousand maybe 2000 ninja's. you can't obviously expect there to be millions of ninja's right?



Wow, ok troll. An entire continent of 5 major ninja villages and multiple smaller villages only contains 2000 ninjas. I had more people in my high school than 2000, but an entire continent can't contain more than that.

I guessed you were a troll before, but now you've proven it.


rawrawraw said:


> Which brings me to an official fluff on marines where 5 Terminators stood behind in a ravine to hold off a massive waaaaghhh in which they killed hundreds of thousands or even millions of orcs before they succumbed.



Rofl, millions of orcs? People have already stated that they would run out of ammo for their bolters long before that number. Show me the quote that says millions, and show me the armaments they were using, and show me the technology level of the orcs. A wagh that large should have had gargants supporting them.



rawrawraw said:


> Wait are you referring to this: doing one's duty
> doing one's duty
> Cause 1. The Terminators would be nowhere near him.
> 2. I would hardly call Shinra Tensei a casual attack but whatever floats your boat.
> 3. Anti-tank rockets bounce of Terminator armor and that's not even adding the energy fields that surround them being generated from their Crux Terminatus.



He's shown the ability to manipulate objects from far away before. The squad doesn't have to be near him.

Shinra Tensei requires a handmotion and leaves no visable stress on Deva, unlike Chou Shinra Tensei. How is it not a casual attack?

Who cares about how tough the terminators are? Once again, your reading comprehension failed you. Shinra Tensei isn't meant to kill the squad, it's meant to put them into the air where they have no control over their movements, making it harder for them to aim, and making them easy targets for all of Narutoverse's attacks.



rawrawraw said:


> And again, it's really not hard to aim when you're a vertern space marine with enhanced reflexes, senses, everything and add in the fact that you've been in every possible war scenario x100. If you think combat experience, especially the amount Terminators have, won't matter in this fight, you're fucking wrong.



Experience doesn't matter when you're facing up, and the enemy is behind you on the ground. All the experience in the world won't make your arms somehow able to reach behind you and aim your gun directly behind your back, or make your head somehow able to turn all the way backwards to see behind you.

Once again, red herring, trying to use experience to somehow make up for the fact that you have no counter for the whole squad being flung into the air, with some of the marines facing away from the ground and therefore unable to fire their weapons.



rawrawraw said:


> And how is it that a Terminator surviving being stepped on by a Warlord Titan no less, surviving in a plasma reactor core, or disappearing from Guardsmen sights BS? Is it BS because you just can't believe it. It's nowhere near BS that Terminator armor can tank everything Narutoverse has to throw at them if you've even read one Space Marine chapter book. Face it, you know absolutely nothing about Space Marines, you're the one that's spouting profuse amounts of BS on a subject you know jack-shit.



I've already explained why the titan feat isn't impressive, and why the plasma reactor feat isn't usable. Just because you don't bother to read my posts doesn't mean I'm like you, and provide no explanations for my points.

You're obviously a troll, so on the ignore list you go. But, on the off chance that you aren't trolling, and are just really bad at reading and comprehending ideas, good luck on your high school/college exams.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Sep 25, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Wow Really? I like how you quote my post which specifically says that I never claimed Byakugan/Sharingan to be useful against Terminators, then go on to state that I claimed Byakugan/Sharingan would be useful against Terminators. Apparently you're so retarded you can't even understand when No means No, and actually think No means Yes.
> 
> Go back and actually read the exchange I had with TWF where I brought Sharingan/Byakugan into the discussion. He claimed that Terrorsight could tell a Kage Bushin from a real person, and was superior to Sharingan/Byakugan, which couldn't do this. I then asked how Terrorsight could be superior to Byakugan, which allows you to see microscopic points of chakra openings inside a person's body.
> 
> ...


*

Your right, it won't do anything to the Terminators so there's no point in arguing about that anymore.




			Yes, they immediately know to target Kakashi first in an army of thousands of ninja, even when he's not doing anything special that they can see.

Kakashi hides some distance away and pops a head off. Since nothing comes out of his eye giving away his location, the squad has no way to know it's him doing it. Instead of targeting him, the Space Marines target the giant Bijuu, and Gedo Mazo, and some of the more threatening fodder ninja like Yamato, who's busy making forests. In this way, Kakashi has more than enough time to kill multiple terminators.
		
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Where's he going to hide? Behind ninja's? How's he going to use Kamui with hundreds of ninja's in front of him. All the times he used it, the path in front of him was clear as day. How do you know he won't kamui a ninja's head off instead of a Terminators if he's all the way back.
Bijuu's, Gedo Mazo, and making forests all take time. Holding on to the trigger of an Assault Cannon takes no time at all. 




			Narutoverse mid-tiers like Kakashi casually disappear from sight. And give me the exact quote that shows him moving at super-sonic speeds.
		
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It was a feat not a quote. He dispapeared from the sights of 3 Dark Eldars and killed them in less than a second.




			Also, if Praid is a newbie space marine and he can move faster than sound, all space marines that are more experienced/faster than him should be able to dodge bolters. Yet, you state that most marines can't dodge bolter fire. This is a contradictory statement.
		
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 See this is why you don't know shit about space marines or even wh40k and you shouldn't be in this fucking thread in the first place if you don't know jack-shit about one side. Bolter rounds move at fucking hypersonic speeds. Are you going to tell me, that supersonic > hypersonic. Because ignorance is one thing, but you're on a whole new level of stupidity. My god. I'm sorry but I don't know how any of your friends, if you even have any, put up with the shit that's coming out of your mouth.







			Kakashi has warped away a suicide explosion bushin that looked and weighed as much as Deidara himself. Is a terminator's head more massive than Deidara's entire body now?
		
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 Why not? Deidara weighs like 60-100 kilograms maybe? A Terminator weighs like 2500 - 3000 kilograms.





			Wow, ok troll. An entire continent of 5 major ninja villages and multiple smaller villages only contains 2000 ninjas. I had more people in my high school than 2000, but an entire continent can't contain more than that.

I guessed you were a troll before, but now you've proven it.
		
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How am I a troll? We're not counting civilians of course. That would be like if we used the real world of Bleach in a Bleachverse battle. People that have nothing to do with the manga shouldn't be used and that's how I came up with 2000. But I guess that still is a pretty low number. If we go by 500 ninja's each in the big 5 villages and then 500 more from smaller various villages we'll have 3000 which is pretty reasonable.




			Rofl, millions of orcs? People have already stated that they would run out of ammo for their bolters long before that number. Show me the quote that says millions, and show me the armaments they were using, and show me the technology level of the orcs. A wagh that large should have had gargants supporting them.
		
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Obviously you don't use your brain. What happens after they run out of ammo? What would you do when if you were the space marines and ran out of ammo? Stand there and get slaughtered right.
There's something called melee weapons.
And i said it could have been millions depending on the edition. The general number was hundreds of thousands possibly in the millions, not "millions".





			He's shown the ability to manipulate objects from far away before. The squad doesn't have to be near him.
		
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 Scans of of him manipulating 10 objects that weigh 2500 - 3000 kilograms each and being miles away.





			Once again, red herring, trying to use experience to somehow make up for the fact that you have no counter for the whole squad being flung into the air, with some of the marines facing away from the ground and therefore unable to fire their weapons.
		
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 So now narutoverse has perfect coordination somehow? Pain flings them in the air and everyone just happens to be ready to unleash their strongest attacks at them when they're vulnerable. With no prep, no information on the Terminators, and bloodlust is on? Are you serious? The average ninja in naruto isn't even that intelligent. You're giving them too much credit.




			I've already explained why the titan feat isn't impressive, and why the plasma reactor feat isn't usable. Just because you don't bother to read my posts doesn't mean I'm like you, and provide no explanations for my points.
		
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No all you said was for the titan feat:



			Besides the getting stepped on by a Titan feat, which isn't really that impressive, there still aren't any feats for Terminator armor durability that have been shown in this thread. What other feats are there?
		
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Oh wow that was your explanation? Should I be conceding?

and for the plasma reactor feat:




			Also, I just realized how ridiculous this "works in a plasma reactor" feat is. The only proof of this is some fluff in a codex about how Terminator armor is based off civilian suits used for working in dangerous conditions, like reactors? Heck, does the codex even mention that it is an active reactor? Because working in an inactive one is still dangerous, given that it mentions these reactors being highly radioactive.
		
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First of all, if you're going to paraphrase something, at least get it correct.
1.) a terminator suit was originally made and used to maintain a plasma core reactor for extended periods of time. obviously the reactor would be on or why would they need to be there to maintain it for extended periods of time.
2.) As we all know those kinds of reactors can get several times hotter than a star (more recent ones can even go 3x hotter than the sun)




			You're obviously a troll, so on the ignore list you go. But, on the off chance that you aren't trolling, and are just really bad at reading and comprehending ideas, good luck on your high school/college exams.
		
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Great! I'm a troll, and you're a naruto wanker. I guess we're even now.*


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## Endless Mike (Sep 25, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> It's not. Character gets surprised and has no time to react to the transformation. None of them do, in fact, even though he would have been vulnerable if it took longer than a few seconds.



You just contradicted yourself, earlier you said she was reacting.



> Notice the hills all over the place we're missing as shown in the aftermath.



What? All the hills in the background are intact.



> Why is it PIS? Do you know the specifics of Terrorsight better than a Space Marine? Do you know better when and when not to use it?



You're the one who said they should have used it.



> Because it was blown into the atmosphere, as that is what would have happened.



All of it somehow magically blasted upwards multiple kilometers despite the fact that the blast was horizontal, and no effects from this ridiculous wind displacement?



> Because if it wasn't vaporized, and it wasn't blown apart in chunks, it was magically teleported away. Okay. Marines are magically teleported into oblivion.



More likely it was shattered into debris or pushed down into the ground.



> With two autocannons? Yeah they will.



Two is plenty enough to take on any "army" ever seen in Narutoverse. I don't know why people are talking about "thousands of ninjas", when have we ever seen a force that large? In fact usually fights don't involve more than a few dozen at the same time. Even during the Konoha invasion there couldn't have been more than 100 ninjas fighting at once.

Note that I am assuming that the Space Marines just appear in Narutoverse and plan their attacks, going from village to village or attacking various towns in hit - and - run attacks.



> There aren't bolters in this thread. Autocannons and cyclonic missile launchers with the bulk being pure melee.



I thought bolters were so standard that they wouldn't need to be mentioned.



TasteTheDifference said:


> Why would they kill Deva as opposed to any of the other creatures or ninja the entire verse would likely be sending against the marines?  One man in a black cloak, even a floating one, wouldn't be conspicuous against a backdrop of giant Birds, Rhinos, Frogs etc.   Besides, the Naruto-verse should at least be able to come up with a plan to distract 5-10 men for a few seconds. :/



So they would take out their own side? Brilliant.



Guy Gardner said:


> I'm as big a 40k fan as any, but Termies can't solo universes that can alter landscape. I can see nothing they can do to get out of something like Swamp of the Underworld or Dotons of that fashion. Just burying them so that they can't move would be enough.



Teleportation


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## Fang (Sep 25, 2009)

Combi-bolters are standard weapons for your generic or run-of the-mill patterned Terminator...


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## madcow3005 (Sep 25, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> You just contradicted yourself, earlier you said she was reacting.



She reacted and had a look of surprise on her face. Then the next panel, Killer Bee is fully formed. I don't see what the confusion here is, Kishi is clearly showing us that it took very little time for the transformation to finish.

In any case, the speed of the transformation is still fast enough that the fodder can cover for the Bijuu. AND, even if the transformation is interrupted by the Terminators shooting them down, that's still buying time for Gedo Mazo, Kamui, and tentatively FRS and Deidara.



Endless Mike said:


> What? All the hills in the background are intact.



You never see the front of Killer Bee like you did in the panel when he shoots the blast. This means you don't see the full extent of the damage.

And tell me, you're very keen on pointing out that the area surrounding Killer Bee doesn't look like it suffered much damage. However, that area wasn't even in the range of the blast. So, if ground that isn't in the blast radius has small mountains being toppled and craters everywhere, what do you suppose the area in front of him looks like?



Endless Mike said:


> All of it somehow magically blasted upwards multiple kilometers despite the fact that the blast was horizontal, and no effects from this ridiculous wind displacement?



Look, even if you don't believe that Kyuubi's blast was equal to a nuke, Killer Bee and KN4's blasts are confirmed multi-block busters. Explain how Terminators tank weaponry that is equal to Titan weaponry.



Endless Mike said:


> Two is plenty enough to take on any "army" ever seen in Narutoverse. I don't know why people are talking about "thousands of ninjas", when have we ever seen a force that large? In fact usually fights don't involve more than a few dozen at the same time. Even during the Konoha invasion there couldn't have been more than 100 ninjas fighting at once.



Oh really, now you're going to try and take this ridiculous stance? An entire ninja village only has a few dozen ninja in it?

There's a simple explanation for why only a few ninja have been shown: the rest are nameless fodder. 

Going by your standards, there's only been a few dozen important people in One Piece that have names/plot significance, so therefore the entire world only consists of a few dozen pirates and world government members.

Yondaime by himself took out several dozen ninja in Kakashi Gaiden. Going by your numbers, that's the entire Hidden Rock army. 

Heck, look at the last panel of the Rescue Gaara arc. That's easily a few dozen ninja, and it's just an expeditionary force, not the entire mobilized army of Sand and Leaf.

Heck, going by your logic, Konoha has roughly 60% of all the named characters in the show, with other villages like Mist only having 12 named characters.

Does Hidden Mist village only contain 12 ninja now?

Quit downplaying Naruto. Just because we've only see a few dozen characters of importance doesn't mean the entire continent can only field a few hundred ninja.



Endless Mike said:


> I thought bolters were so standard that they wouldn't need to be mentioned.



Terminators can be armed with Thunderhammers and Stormshields AND Stormbolters now? Or double Lightning Claws and Stormbolters? Or Assault Cannon and Stormbolters?



Endless Mike said:


> So they would take out their own side? Brilliant.



So? As long as it also takes out the terminators, who cares? Whichever side is left standing wins in a bloodlusted battle, and sacrifices don't matter.

Besides, they wouldn't have to take out their own side if Pein sent all the terminators into the air with shinra tensei.


Endless Mike said:


> Teleportation



Which only works with orbiting support ships. So, you're already conceding that without orbital support, the terminators are easily dealt with.

WITH teleporters, this is a debatable match. Not a rapestomp as the WH fans suggest.

BTW, when are these scans/quotes of terminator feats going to finally show up?

It's page 13 and the only verified feat we have is getting stepped on by a titan.


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 25, 2009)

TWF said:


> Combi-bolters are standard weapons for your generic or run-of the-mill patterned Terminator...



Combi-bolters are only run-of-the-mill for Chaos Terminators. Stormbolters are different, and have different advantages/disadvantages.

On Teleportation: Space Marine teleportation, the way I've always seen it portrayed is that it is not only risky (A short story in _White Dwarf_ has Brother-Captain Stern talking about how he specifically didn't like teleportation, specifically because you're traveling through the Warp), but time-consuming. I've never heard of Terminators (or anyone else who was teleport-equipped) using it for true tactical movement besides insertion and retreating (Third War of Armageddon Battle Report has Marshall Helsbrech teleporting out of a Kill Krooser after taking substantial casualties). I mean, if they could, what would make Warp Spiders so special?

Banking on it to get you out of one tight spot, okay. But I don't think they'd redeploy quickly enough to do anything. It's certainly not a trick they could do multiple times without serious risk of something going wrong.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 25, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> She reacted and had a look of surprise on her face. Then the next panel, Killer Bee is fully formed. I don't see what the confusion here is, Kishi is clearly showing us that it took very little time for the transformation to finish.



What does that mean? It could be anything from 1 to 30 seconds or more.



> In any case, the speed of the transformation is still fast enough that the fodder can cover for the Bijuu. AND, even if the transformation is interrupted by the Terminators shooting them down, that's still buying time for Gedo Mazo, Kamui, and tentatively FRS and Deidara.



All of these won't be in the same battle at once....



> You never see the front of Killer Bee like you did in the panel when he shoots the blast. This means you don't see the full extent of the damage.
> 
> And tell me, you're very keen on pointing out that the area surrounding Killer Bee doesn't look like it suffered much damage. However, that area wasn't even in the range of the blast. So, if ground that isn't in the blast radius has small mountains being toppled and craters everywhere, what do you suppose the area in front of him looks like?



Pretty much the same? As there is no evidence otherwise.



> Look, even if you don't believe that Kyuubi's blast was equal to a nuke, Killer Bee and KN4's blasts are confirmed multi-block busters. Explain how Terminators tank weaponry that is equal to Titan weaponry.



Rosarius, or teleport away, or just kill them before they fire.



> Oh really, now you're going to try and take this ridiculous stance? An entire ninja village only has a few dozen ninja in it?



As many as can be mobilized at once. It's not like a village is an easy place to navigate or form large masses of armies.



> There's a simple explanation for why only a few ninja have been shown: the rest are nameless fodder.



And thus worthless.



> Going by your standards, there's only been a few dozen important people in One Piece that have names/plot significance, so therefore the entire world only consists of a few dozen pirates and world government members.



Luffy fought 10,000 marines at Enies Lobby....



> Yondaime by himself took out several dozen ninja in Kakashi Gaiden. Going by your numbers, that's the entire Hidden Rock army.



Strawman. I said that that is generally the most we see engaging in battle at any given time.



> Heck, look at the last panel of the Rescue Gaara arc. That's easily a few dozen ninja, and it's just an expeditionary force, not the entire mobilized army of Sand and Leaf.



I'm too lazy to look it up. Post a scan.

Anyway, any less than 1000 at once will be easy for the Terminators to kill, unless there are tons of top tiers.



> Heck, going by your logic, Konoha has roughly 60% of all the named characters in the show, with other villages like Mist only having 12 named characters.



When did I say named characters? I said characters we have actually seen fighting, that have actually been shown.



> Does Hidden Mist village only contain 12 ninja now?



Of course not. But show me one scene where there are thousands, or even hundreds, of ninjas fighting at once.



> Quit downplaying Naruto. Just because we've only see a few dozen characters of importance doesn't mean the entire continent can only field a few hundred ninja.



Of course they can field maybe a few thousand. Just not at once in the same battle.



> Terminators can be armed with Thunderhammers and Stormshields AND Stormbolters now? Or double Lightning Claws and Stormbolters? Or Assault Cannon and Stormbolters?



I was claiming normal bolters.



> So? As long as it also takes out the terminators, who cares? Whichever side is left standing wins in a bloodlusted battle, and sacrifices don't matter.
> 
> Besides, they wouldn't have to take out their own side if Pein sent all the terminators into the air with shinra tensei.



They would if they were surrounded by so many enemies that Pain would not be an opportune target. It would hurt the ninjas more than the Terminators anyway.



> Which only works with orbiting support ships. So, you're already conceding that without orbital support, the terminators are easily dealt with.



Wrong. It's just shorter ranged without them.



> WITH teleporters, this is a debatable match. Not a rapestomp as the WH fans suggest.
> 
> BTW, when are these scans/quotes of terminator feats going to finally show up?
> 
> It's page 13 and the only verified feat we have is getting stepped on by a titan.



You missed a few on the last page.


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## TasteTheDifference (Sep 26, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> So they would take out their own side? Brilliant.





Shinra Tensei didn't kill any of the toads it was used against, as for the other summons, why  would Pain care about killing Generic Rinnegan summons?

Whether living ninja are involved in an attempt at a distraction to allow Shinra tensei is neither here nor there, given that the summons by themselves should be enough, but Naruto-verse has plenty of ways of creating facsimiles of real humans, e.g bunshins, kage Bunshin, the other Pain bodies.


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2009)

What's the difference between Combi-Bolters and Storm-Bolters? Are combi-bolters just something that's been phased out after the Horus Heresy in the Imperium?


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 26, 2009)

TWF said:


> What's the difference between Combi-Bolters and Storm-Bolters? Are combi-bolters just something that's been phased out after the Horus Heresy in the Imperium?



I'm not sure if I can get an exact date of when they were phased out, but yes, they were phased out after the Horus Heresy. There are small functional differences (A stormbolter is fed with a large drum clip, while a combi-bolter is fed with two separate bolter clips), and the game mechanics indicate that a stormbolter is maximized for rate-of-fire (Assault 2, 24", meaning a unit can move and fire 24" with 2 dice). A combi-bolter counts as a twin-linked bolter (Rapid Fire 24", where it can fire twice at 12" and once at 24", but rerolls misses). Another important difference: A user can fire a stormbolter and then move into hand-to-hand because it is listed as "Assault". A combi-bolter user can not.

So, essentially, the stormbolter fires faster and is meant for troops who are going to be moving close and into hand-to-hand. Combi-bolters are more accurate, but limit their options when it comes to long-range fire and assaulting.


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## TasteTheDifference (Sep 26, 2009)

Btw both the active Plasma reactor and being stepped on by a Titan things are definitely true, in the latter case it was explicitly a durability feat as it was used to illustrate a new rule making terminators more survivable.


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## marshalteach (Sep 26, 2009)

Ninja fodder would be scared shitless as great amounts of allies are being blown apart in seconds.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 26, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> You just contradicted yourself, earlier you said she was reacting.


No I didn't.



> What? All the hills in the background are intact.


What happened to the one _right next to_ the demon? Or the one that we see being engulfed by the fireball. 


> You're the one who said they should have used it.


Yes I did. But since they didn't they must have a reason not to. A limitation, most likely. I believe the Space Marines know the specifics of Terrorsight and its applications better than me or you.


> All of it somehow magically blasted upwards multiple kilometers despite the fact that the blast was horizontal, and no effects from this ridiculous wind displacement?


How was the blast horizontal? The blast clearly ovoid, almost spherical. And the fact that it actually destroyed much of the dirt below ground level proves this. And imagine what happens when you put 400 megatons of direct energy into the ground. That vapor cloud isn't going to be floating around on the ground at all, it'll be soaring. 


> More likely it was shattered into debris or pushed down into the ground.


You can't do that unless you move the dirt already down there, the dirt would have to be piled up on the sides. And even if that was the case, that would require more force than the Tsar Bomba. Only a difference of a factor of ten, but still enough to vape its opponent.


> Two is plenty enough to take on any "army" ever seen in Narutoverse. I don't know why people are talking about "thousands of ninjas", when have we ever seen a force that large?


Official translation has Kakashi state ten thousand ninja are divided up between the 5 great nations. 

And just how many bullets do you think are in assault cannons? How many od you think they could carry? Terminators are a strike squad meant for quick in an out via teleporters, not for long drawn out fights. 



> In fact usually fights don't involve more than a few dozen at the same time. Even during the Konoha invasion there couldn't have been more than 100 ninjas fighting at once.


A city-wide battle involving only 100 or less ninja? There were probably a 100 ninja in the stadium alone.


> Note that I am assuming that the Space Marines just appear in Narutoverse and plan their attacks, going from village to village or attacking various towns in hit - and - run attacks.


Good, I am assuming you can reference how quickly teleporters can be used.


> I thought bolters were so standard that they wouldn't need to be mentioned.


The OP stated what equipment they have. And bolters aren't standard for Terminators.



TasteTheDifference said:


> Btw both the active Plasma reactor and being stepped on by a Titan things are definitely true,


For the former, you're wrong. There is no indication that Terminators can survive in active plasma reactors.



> in the latter case it was explicitly a durability feat as it was used to illustrate a new rule making terminators more survivable.


And he was seriously fucked up by it. Crimson Dragoon can cite the passage if you want, the guy was bleeding all over himself.


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 26, 2009)

To quote the "Plasma Generator" feat from the Space Marine Codex (5th Edition)



> It is even said that Terminator Armour can withstand the titanic energies at a plasma generator's core, and that this was in fact the armor's original purpose.



It's left somewhat ambiguous, really, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. It depends on how you interpret them in the core; are they simply being bathed in said fantastic energies, or are they walking through the core itself?

Edit: 100 ninja in the stadium _alone_? I think that's pretty wishful thinking. I don't think any village has more than a hundred or so true ninja (i.e. Chuunin or above). When you get to wars, you have to assume that you also have help from their home country's army as well as mercenary ninja (which there are probably thousands of but are of miserably low levels of skill).


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm talking about 100 ninja divided between the three village fighting. And I doubt genin, children, make up 95% or so of the villages ninja armed forces.


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## TasteTheDifference (Sep 26, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> And he was seriously fucked up by it. Crimson Dragoon can cite the passage if you want, the guy was bleeding all over himself.



I don't disagree, his armor breaks and he's bleeding etc, I looked it up from my pile of Warhammer stuff I haven't looked at in X years.


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 26, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> I'm talking about 100 ninja divided between the three village fighting. And I doubt genin, children, make up 95% or so of the villages ninja armed forces.



You're working on an unproven assumption, however. The manga clearly indicates that the size of the villages are much, much smaller than "1,000" ninja.

1) The Chuunin Exam clearly indicates that it is much smaller than this. It's held twice a year, but the near 20-person class that passed the Forest of Death was specifically noted as being an abnormally huge class. Considering that they compete in an 8-person tournament to become a Chuunin and that all 8 or _none_ of them could pass, having a thousand ninja (with a decent amount of Chuunin and Jounin is almost impossible. Hell, my count is fairly high.

2) The number of Genin out of the Naruto's graduating class clearly indicates much fewer. Only 12 made it as genin; considering that we never hear of there being multiple academies (You'd think they'd mention something like that) and that it seems like they operate on a normal "school year" (Since Naruto didn't want to be held back for another year), You're getting barely over double-digits for genin. Also, it's clear that the vast majority of ninja are Genin-level; the way things are structured, there is a definite chokepoint at getting beyond this level. Look at what you need to become a Genin, and what you need to become a Chuunin.

3) After the Chuunin war, they talk about the village being stretched due to the losses that occurred. When we look at the funeral, there can't be more than 20-30 pictures there. If they have thousands of ninja, such losses wouldn't be anything.

To me, these numbers indicate not much more than a hundred real ninja; Chuunin or above who go out on combat missions. I doubt support ninja (The scientist ones, the dedicated medical ones) ever have to take the chuunin exam as they aren't meant to see active combat duty, which allows villages to have skilled support staff without having to put them through the ridiculous testing process against combat-oriented ninja.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 26, 2009)

You're right, I was operating under a bunch of unproven assumptions. I find it odd though, that Kakashi would state ten thousand ninja if they weren't hard core. Also, would you consider the ninja seen in the Kakashi Gaiden arc as "fake" ninja? I'm assuming here that the "close to a thousand" strong Iwa force headed to Konoha could have been of similar skill. Obviously the chuunin exam couldn't possibly promote that many ninja, given only one person managed a promotion (although there were extenuating circumstances). Or a single academy doing it.

I'm left to wonder if there are other methods of promotion not covered in the manga. I'd say it's likely; if I was the leader of a military city that operates under espionage, I wouldn't want to publicize all of my force's promotions and skill. And given the nature of the Chuunin exam, finding the best ninja of the generation and sending them to promote their villages to the wealth in the continent, it's probably just an exception and not the rule. We see no adults compete in the chuunin exams (the oldest people there were around Kabuto's age) that I find it hard that there are any adult genin at all. 10 of the other ninja managed to be promoted to chuunin, and one even to jounin, in 2 year time-skip; that may be an indication of different methods of promotion if the first chuunin exam is to go by. IIRC, Kabuto taking it 6 times was an outlier. 

It's a wonder why they even bother with their training methods if there's only a 5% efficiency. We have canon numbers stating 10k ninja(I'll confirm this tomorrow morning), the idea that 9,500 of ninja are pulling weeds, fixing houses and picking up litter is ridiculous. Especially the fact that each set of 3 would require a jounin instructor, meaning there are at least 2.5k jounins out there. 

You mentioned the village would be using mercenary ninja, an idea I do not think to be true. Villages mercilessly hunt down and kill missing-nins to keep their secrets. Hiring outside ninja for a duration would be too much of a security risk for any village to take. And the home countries army are likely not involved in this fight, I do recall this being called a "ninja war". This is also supplemented by the idea that non-ninja armies ceased to be since the founding of the ninja villages. They were specifically hired to protect the country, not vice-versa. 

Anyway stuff doesn't make sense for only 100 chuunin level ninja to exist. Especially with the idea of 2,500 genin teams, and by extension, the elite-jounin.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 26, 2009)

TasteTheDifference said:


> Shinra Tensei didn't kill any of the toads it was used against, as for the other summons, why  would Pain care about killing Generic Rinnegan summons?
> 
> Whether living ninja are involved in an attempt at a distraction to allow Shinra tensei is neither here nor there, given that the summons by themselves should be enough, but Naruto-verse has plenty of ways of creating facsimiles of real humans, e.g bunshins, kage Bunshin, the other Pain bodies.



So if it was just Pain, they would obviously concentrate on the guy who was summoning all of this crap.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> No I didn't.



I was talking to madcow.



> What happened to the one _right next to_ the demon? Or the one that we see being engulfed by the fireball.



Obviously those two are gone. Do you even know what I'm trying to say here?



> Yes I did. But since they didn't they must have a reason not to. A limitation, most likely. I believe the Space Marines know the specifics of Terrorsight and its applications better than me or you.



Or it is simply PIS.

How was the blast horizontal? The blast clearly ovoid, almost spherical. And the fact that it actually destroyed much of the dirt below ground level proves this. And imagine what happens when you put 400 megatons of direct energy into the ground. That vapor cloud isn't going to be floating around on the ground at all, it'll be soaring.[/quote]

It was horizontal as it was moving across the ground, not high up into the air like Deidara's explosion, for example. Putting 400 megatons into the ground would cause significant heating and molten rock, which we saw none of. 



> You can't do that unless you move the dirt already down there, the dirt would have to be piled up on the sides. And even if that was the case, that would require more force than the Tsar Bomba. Only a difference of a factor of ten, but still enough to vape its opponent.



Can we just leave it with the fact that this feat is inconsistent?



> Official translation has Kakashi state ten thousand ninja are divided up between the 5 great nations.



Already covered. Most of them are probably fodder, and they're definitely not all going to be fighting at once.



> And just how many bullets do you think are in assault cannons? How many od you think they could carry? Terminators are a strike squad meant for quick in an out via teleporters, not for long drawn out fights.



Which is why I specified the use of hit-and-run tactics. Which, incidentally, makes most of the secret weapon broken techniques people are naming useless as they will not have time to activate them.



> A city-wide battle involving only 100 or less ninja? There were probably a 100 ninja in the stadium alone.



Covered already.



> Good, I am assuming you can reference how quickly teleporters can be used.



They wouldn't need to use them more than once every few hours or so, except to escape large attacks.


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## Grrblt (Sep 26, 2009)

Guy Gardner said:


> You're working on an unproven assumption, however. The manga clearly indicates that the size of the villages are much, much smaller than "1,000" ninja.


right next to


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 26, 2009)

Yeah, obviously their information was wrong since that many ninja have never been seen at once.


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## TasteTheDifference (Sep 26, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> So if it was just Pain, they would obviously concentrate on the guy who was summoning all of this crap.
> .



Why would Pain, other summoners, or Ninja using Tajuu KB need to go into the Terminators' LOS while summoning, unless they're on some endless plain?


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## TasteTheDifference (Sep 26, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Terrorsight



So you're saying that they would ignore both the Giant summons which can knock them to the floor and Deva Pain in favor of fodder summoners?  It's not even specified in the OP that they have a Cyclone missile launcher or the like which can ignore terrain.   All other Terminator Weapons attack linearly.


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 26, 2009)

Even if Killer Bee's blast do hit the Terminators, they're not taking the full blast, they're only taking a portion of the blast because it's a wide-spread attack. Now if it was a focused energy attack like the Reigun or a Kamahamaha then it would be different. With the Crux Terminatus and Rosarius, tanking it wouldn't be difficult. It would be like comparing a water jet cutter to a tidal wave.


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 26, 2009)

TasteTheDifference said:


> So you're saying that they would ignore both the Giant summons which can knock them to the floor and Deva Pain in favor of fodder summoners?  It's not even specified in the OP that they have a Cyclone missile launcher or the like which can ignore terrain.   All other Terminator Weapons attack linearly.



it's not in the first post but a little bit down, he explains what the terminators get.


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## TasteTheDifference (Sep 26, 2009)

rawrawraw said:


> it's not in the first post but a little bit down, he explains what the terminators get.





**

If he did that he should have told us how much ammo they've got


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## Endless Mike (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm going to revise my assessment to say that with infinite ammo the Terminators win, but without it they would eventually get taken down after doing a lot of damage.


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 26, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> You're right, I was operating under a bunch of unproven assumptions. I find it odd though, that Kakashi would state ten thousand ninja if they weren't hard core. Also, would you consider the ninja seen in the Kakashi Gaiden arc as "fake" ninja? I'm assuming here that the "close to a thousand" strong Iwa force headed to Konoha could have been of similar skill. Obviously the chuunin exam couldn't possibly promote that many ninja, given only one person managed a promotion (although there were extenuating circumstances). Or a single academy doing it.



The 1,000 ninja quote doesn't necessarily mean that they're all Iwa ninja. Their enemy is the rock, but that doesn't mean that their allies and mercenaries aren't there to boost their size. Also, consider that during war they likely promoted people much faster than normal. Again, you base your argument on a lot of unsupportable assumptions that fly in the face of what is obvious today.



> I'm left to wonder if there are other methods of promotion not covered in the manga. I'd say it's likely; if I was the leader of a military city that operates under espionage, I wouldn't want to publicize all of my force's promotions and skill. And given the nature of the Chuunin exam, finding the best ninja of the generation and sending them to promote their villages to the wealth in the continent, it's probably just an exception and not the rule. We see no adults compete in the chuunin exams (the oldest people there were around Kabuto's age) that I find it hard that there are any adult genin at all. 10 of the other ninja managed to be promoted to chuunin, and one even to jounin, in 2 year time-skip; that may be an indication of different methods of promotion if the first chuunin exam is to go by. IIRC, Kabuto taking it 6 times was an outlier.



I'm not sure taking it 6 times was an outlier as making it past the forest so many times was.

And having alternate ways of promoting combat ninja complete defeats the purpose of the Chuunin exam, which was pretty much there to limit how many ninja could be promoted in peace time. If they are promoting ninjas without it, why even have it?

The _only_ exception I could possibly think of would be that non-combat ninja would be allowed to go up in ranks as they are simply acting in a support staff manner. But that's it.



> It's a wonder why they even bother with their training methods if there's only a 5% efficiency. We have canon numbers stating 10k ninja(I'll confirm this tomorrow morning), the idea that 9,500 of ninja are pulling weeds, fixing houses and picking up litter is ridiculous. Especially the fact that each set of 3 would require a jounin instructor, meaning there are at least 2.5k jounins out there.



Let's take this post apart:
- 9,500 people is actually not as much as you think for minor chores and jobs, especially considering that they could be hired all across the world.
- You use an extremely flawed number. A more accurate number of genin would be something around, say, the 87 that were trying out for the Chuunin exam from Konoha. This is more accurate because it is much more recent as gives us a definite number of genin who are trying out for the Chuunin exam. Considering you do agree that the vast majority would still likely be Genin, 100 ninja would not be a bad number. I'd probably increase the number of genin to something like 150 or 200, as not necessarily all Genin would be taking the exam at that year.
- Again, I also must bring up the fact that only 12 out of the ninja academy graduated to Genin rank. There's no way that it's at the same number anymore.
- Heck, considering the age of some of the genin in there, they might not even need a master anymore. This would be certainly understandable; by the time you reach maybe 15 or 16, you'd be old enough to take missions without need for an instructor. You could still be reasonably skilled without passing the Chuunin exam, anyways.



> You mentioned the village would be using mercenary ninja, an idea I do not think to be true. Villages mercilessly hunt down and kill missing-nins to keep their secrets. Hiring outside ninja for a duration would be too much of a security risk for any village to take. And the home countries army are likely not involved in this fight, I do recall this being called a "ninja war". This is also supplemented by the idea that non-ninja armies ceased to be since the founding of the ninja villages. They were specifically hired to protect the country, not vice-versa.



- They hunt missing nin because they know secrets to the villages. Mercenary nin do not. Don't compare the two.
- Ninja war or no, it's going to affect the countries involved. I doubt they would stay uninvolved as a massive war raged in their lands.
- Having your ninja village destroyed would be a serious risk for the home country. Thinking that the relationship between the two isn't mutual is foolish, since having your own ninja village is a massive strategic benefit.
- Hiring out mercenary ninja would not necessarily be a "massive security risk". They don't need to let them in the village.



> Anyway stuff doesn't make sense for only 100 chuunin level ninja to exist. Especially with the idea of 2,500 genin teams, and by extension, the elite-jounin.



Keep using those magic numbers when there's no proof that they are accurate at the current level. Nothing we know of the training infrastructure indicates that they could sustain a thousand ninjas over any extended period of years.

The logical explanation of this would be as follows: Due to massive wars (Wasn't the last one called the Third Great Ninja War?) and simple desertion (Which is completely possible), the 10,000 number decreased to where it is today. Considering these times are much more peaceful, it seems logical that they wouldn't want to wield such large forces anymore.


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2009)

Just to point out Konohagakura aka the Hidden Leaf is suppose to be the largest and most powerful of the Five Great Countries in terms of military power. And the entire point of the Hidden Sand back-stabbing and assaulting them when the Yondaime Kazekage was allied with Orochimaru didn't even show thousands of ninjas actively fighting them.

Hell 30 Chuunins was considered a "major" force to the Suna-Nins and Hyuga Hiashi wiped them out.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 26, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> I was talking to madcow.





> Obviously those two are gone. Do you even know what I'm trying to say here?


If you weren't contesting that any hills were destroyed, just that the hills many miles away from the fight weren't knocked over, it's a  straw man response.


> Or it is simply PIS.


Prove it.


> It was horizontal as it was moving across the ground, not high up into the air like Deidara's explosion, for example. Putting 400 megatons into the ground would cause significant heating and molten rock, which we saw none of.


I can't explain chakra, but that isn't the case here. It only...what's the word that won't cause nitpicking...erased several million cubic meters of dirt from existence with no evidence to suggest where it went. 



> Can we just leave it with the fact that this feat is inconsistent?


I'll leave it with the fact that it's unquantifiable.



> Already covered.


No it wasn't. You suggested only a few hundred.



> Most of them are probably fodder, and they're definitely not all going to be fighting at once.


Fodder relative to what? Naruto or Warhammer 40k?


> Which is why I specified the use of hit-and-run tactics.


How are they going to get the information for Hit-and-Run tactics. They have no surveillence.  



> Which, incidentally, makes most of the secret weapon broken techniques people are naming useless as they will not have time to activate them.


If it comes down to it, they'll be used. Terminators won't be able to get out of the way quickly enough.


> Covered already.


You can just say "I'm going to leave this debate to somebody else" if you don't want to debate with me over it.


> They wouldn't need to use them more than once every few hours or so, except to escape large attacks.


I didn't ask how often they can be used, I ask how quickly they can be used. Prove Terminators can do something similar to this with their teleporters. But if you can tell me how often they can use their teleporters, that would be great.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 26, 2009)

Guy Gardner said:


> The 1,000 ninja quote doesn't necessarily mean that they're all Iwa ninja. Their enemy is the rock, but that doesn't mean that their allies and mercenaries aren't there to boost their size.


What allies and mercenaries. The only mercenaries I can recall are the Akatsuki, and only because they're powerful and efficient.



> Also, consider that during war they likely promoted people much faster than normal. Again, you base your argument on a lot of unsupportable assumptions that fly in the face of what is obvious today.


What is obvious today? It's not obvious that out of ten thousand ninja, most if not all of them are genin. I think a majority of the genin took the chuunin exam with the others, there were not that many. Most ninja we see have chuunin-vest on as well. Chuunin are even called the "average", whereas the genin are apprentice and jounin are elite.



> I'm not sure taking it 6 times was an outlier as making it past the forest so many times was.


No, because he didn't take it in the forest of death 6 times. The competition is held in different nations each time. He probably only took it in Konoha once before and nothing says that it was the forest of death twice.



> And having alternate ways of promoting combat ninja complete defeats the purpose of the Chuunin exam, which was pretty much there to limit how many ninja could be promoted in peace time. If they are promoting ninjas without it, why even have it?


As I said, to show of their village's abilities to people. That's why it was important to look good during the stadium fight.


> The _only_ exception I could possibly think of would be that non-combat ninja would be allowed to go up in ranks as they are simply acting in a support staff manner. But that's it.


Why would they promote people if they're just going from weed pickers to pencil pushers.



> Let's take this post apart:
> - 9,500 people is actually not as much as you think for minor chores and jobs, especially considering that they could be hired all across the world.


It's inconceivable that people would hire likely high cost ninja to do menial labor duties. Especially when they can hire a group of local children to do it at a fraction of the cost. Just traveling to the village would require time and money best spent elsewhere. Only the Konoha villagers are the source of D-rank missions; they're closer to the village and it supports it.


> - You use an extremely flawed number.


My "extremely flawed number" is based on the 10k figure from chapter 9, divided by 5 between the kages, then divided by your estimate. The flaw is from simple deduction. If there's a flaw then you should re-estimate your "~100 real ninja" guess.



> A more accurate number of genin would be something around, say, the 87 that were trying out for the Chuunin exam from Konoha. This is more accurate because it is much more recent as gives us a definite number of genin who are trying out for the Chuunin exam. Considering you do agree that the vast majority would still likely be Genin,


No I don't. I find that extremely unlikely. I actually there's more jounin than genin.



> 100 ninja would not be a bad number.


Your number is based on...what? An 87:1 ratio of applicants to the chuunin exam and those promoted? This is flawed given one chuunin exame is not evident of all others. At least 10 people promoted over 4 chuunin exams is evident of this.

Or is it based on something else?


> I'd probably increase the number of genin to something like 150 or 200, as not necessarily all Genin would be taking the exam at that year.


Let me get this straight, you think that there are only 150-200 genin and 100 chuunin+, despite the -fact- that there are 10k ninja in 5 villages. 


> - Again, I also must bring up the fact that only 12 out of the ninja academy graduated to Genin rank. There's no way that it's at the same number anymore.


I can't remember correctly, but is this true? That only 12 graduated? Or just 12 that were introduced into the storyline?



> - Heck, considering the age of some of the genin in there, they might not even need a master anymore. This would be certainly understandable; by the time you reach maybe 15 or 16, you'd be old enough to take missions without need for an instructor. You could still be reasonably skilled without passing the Chuunin exam, anyways.


Is this one of those unproven assumptions that you've been berating me about?


> - They hunt missing nin because they know secrets to the villages. Mercenary nin do not. Don't compare the two.


Mercenary nin are a security risk. Just look at the Hyuuga fiasco. They would not invite foreign ninja into their village, especially ones that are bought. There is no way to tell whether or not they could be working for somebody else. 



> - Ninja war or no, it's going to affect the countries involved. I doubt they would stay uninvolved as a massive war raged in their lands.


This begs the question of what can the countries do to retaliate? Look at the scene with Orochimaru where he destroyed a famous castle. Did we see any retaliation from that act?


> - Having your ninja village destroyed would be a serious risk for the home country. Thinking that the relationship between the two isn't mutual is foolish, since having your own ninja village is a massive strategic benefit.


It's no different than an IRL nation having its military destroyed. It's a serious damn risk, but you can't expect non-trained non-military to fight against another nation's military, one that was capable of killing your own. The relationship is to fund the military, the military protects you. In this case, fund the village, village protects you.


> - Hiring out mercenary ninja would not necessarily be a "massive security risk". They don't need to let them in the village.


How would they get into contact with these mercenary ninjas? If the mercenary ninja's give away their location, they're likely to be tracked by whatever village they came from and killed. If they're from some unknown ninja clan, it's unlikely that their forces are as good as a dedicated force (as they have to do much in the way of their own survival as well as train). Mercenary ninjas should be considered less-than-fodder. Then the only way for an arrangement to be had is if the mercenary ninja came to the village itself and hired themselves out, and I doubt the village will allow unknown ninjas to approach them.



> Keep using those magic numbers when there's no proof that they are accurate at the current level.


Kakashi stated it in chapter 9 page 16. Though the fan-translated version states "thousands" the official states "ten thousand". The context is quite clear that they're not talking about mercenary ninja, but ninja from their own village. Are you suggesting that thousands of ninja just, what, retire or died over...nothing?



> Nothing we know of the training infrastructure indicates that they could sustain a thousand ninjas over any extended period of years.


How wouldn't they be able to sustain that many? They're an effective labor force that export themselves out to generate income for the village. They'd be cheap to maintain to an advanced city like Konoha. To say they couldn't sustain ninja is like saying they couldn't sustain a small army. Not even a small army. Two thousand is not that much.



> The logical explanation of this would be as follows: Due to massive wars (Wasn't the last one called the Third Great Ninja War?) and simple desertion (Which is completely possible), the 10,000 number decreased to where it is today. Considering these times are much more peaceful, it seems logical that they wouldn't want to wield such large forces anymore.


The "today" is the 10k quote. And the more ninja they have the better, as they can take in more missions and generate more income.


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 26, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> What allies and mercenaries. The only mercenaries I can recall are the Akatsuki, and only because they're powerful and efficient.



In time of war, you need numbers sometimes. I don't see why Iwa wouldn't hire mercenaries to round out their forces.



> What is obvious today? It's not obvious that out of ten thousand ninja, most if not all of them are genin. I think a majority of the genin took the chuunin exam with the others, there were not that many. Most ninja we see have chuunin-vest on as well. Chuunin are even called the "average", whereas the genin are apprentice and jounin are elite.



It's obvious that the majority would be genin because the majority wouldn't make it _past_ genin. Survivability, along with the rigorous testing indicates that the vast majority of ninjas don't seem to make it past genin. Heck, look at how many failed to make it _to_ genin.



> No, because he didn't take it in the forest of death 6 times. The competition is held in different nations each time. He probably only took it in Konoha once before and nothing says that it was the forest of death twice.



Regardless, the fact is that he took the test 6 times and dropped out at the same spot: Just before the tournament.



> As I said, to show of their village's abilities to people. That's why it was important to look good during the stadium fight.



Except that they state that it's a way to keep the amount of qualified ninjas under control.



> Why would they promote people if they're just going from weed pickers to pencil pushers.



...

Are you serious? Do you think that all medics in the army are the same rank? Or all the quartermasters? Outside of combat, there is still a hierarchy that needs to be maintained.



> It's inconceivable that people would hire likely high cost ninja to do menial labor duties. Especially when they can hire a group of local children to do it at a fraction of the cost. Just traveling to the village would require time and money best spent elsewhere. Only the Konoha villagers are the source of D-rank missions; they're closer to the village and it supports it.



Why hire a ninja to do menial tasks if they're high cost? You defeated your own argument by automatically assume they do such tasks at a premium cost.



> My "extremely flawed number" is based on the 10k figure from chapter 9, divided by 5 between the kages, then divided by your estimate. The flaw is from simple deduction. If there's a flaw then you should re-estimate your "~100 real ninja" guess.



And yet everything in the manga goes against it. It could simply be a case of "32,000 beans" all over again.



> No I don't. I find that extremely unlikely. I actually there's more jounin than genin.



How?! Logically speaking, there would be fewer Jounin than Genin because genin is the easiest rank to achieve, as everyone has to go through it to become a Chunin and then a Jounin. And let's not forget that missions get riskier as you go on: you are unlikely to lose Genin on missions due to their low risk, unlike that of a Chunin's mission.

By your logic, there should be more Sergeants than Privates in the Army.



> Your number is based on...what? An 87:1 ratio of applicants to the chuunin exam and those promoted? *This is flawed given one chuunin exame is not evident of all others.* At least 10 people promoted over 4 chuunin exams is evident of this.
> 
> Or is it based on something else?



The bolded statement is false. They outright say that there were way more applicants that got through than normal, which is why they did the preliminary matches: They needed to cut down the numbers to get to the regular tournament numbers.

And to maintain the "Thousand Ninja" number, they'd need dozens to become chuunins.

Hell, answer me this: If the village can promote people outside of the Chuunin exam, why didn't any of the others get promotions that way? They all took the Chuunin exam and passed. It doesn't make sense to risk your best students like that if they don't _need_ to be risked. At the very least, not all of them do.

Also: The timeskip was 3 years long. With 2 Chuunin exams a year, that means there were 6 exams. Theoretically, you could have 4 out of 10 (Because, remember, they were prepared to take 10 people for the tournament) graduating every year, and you'd have 24 Chuunin in 3 years. That sounds about right.



> Let me get this straight, you think that there are only 150-200 genin and 100 chuunin+, despite the -fact- that there are 10k ninja in 5 villages.



Except it's not beyond the author to get it wrong.

Or the author could have gotten the number wrong (We've seen this happen before), as everything in the manga indicates that there are much fewer ninjas.



> I can't remember correctly, but is this true? That only 12 graduated? Or just 12 that were introduced into the storyline?



I believe it states this, but I could check. Considering the difficulty advancing between classes, it's not 



> Is this one of those unproven assumptions that you've been berating me about?



Except mine doesn't fly in the face of all the conventions introduced in the manga, but yours does. 

Logically older students need less attention than younger ones, unless you want to believe that old, sweater-wearing guy absolutely needed a Jounin to function as a genin. 



> Mercenary nin are a security risk. Just look at the Hyuuga fiasco. They would not invite foreign ninja into their village, especially ones that are bought. There is no way to tell whether or not they could be working for somebody else.



No shit, but that's _inside their own village_. When projecting force outside their own village, there is considerably less risk. Did you not notice how I said they don't have to invite them back into their village to help out with their campaign?



> This begs the question of what can the countries do to retaliate? Look at the scene with Orochimaru where he destroyed a famous castle. Did we see any retaliation from that act?



How do you marshall an army and find _two guys_, especially when Konoha can't find them? Who do you retaliate against?



> It's no different than an IRL nation having its military destroyed. It's a serious damn risk, but you can't expect non-trained non-military to fight against another nation's military, one that was capable of killing your own. The relationship is to fund the military, the military protects you. In this case, fund the village, village protects you.



This would be true, except that we've seen chakra traditions outside of ninjas. They might not have the same versatility, but that doesn't preclude an alternate military force directly under the control of the Fire Daimyo. In fact, it only intelligent to have some sort of military force that reports directly to you; just because there are ninjas doesn't mean that marshalling considerably larger traditional forces wouldn't do something.

The comparison to a regular military are not correct, either. This would be closer to paying for more protection from a Private Military Company than a traditional military, as there is literally no oversight on the behalf of the Fire Country. They are essentially separate entities which have a working relationship.



> How would they get into contact with these mercenary ninjas? If the mercenary ninja's give away their location, they're likely to be tracked by whatever village they came from and killed. If they're from some unknown ninja clan, it's unlikely that their forces are as good as a dedicated force (as they have to do much in the way of their own survival as well as train). Mercenary ninjas should be considered less-than-fodder. Then the only way for an arrangement to be had is if the mercenary ninja came to the village itself and hired themselves out, and I doubt the village will allow unknown ninjas to approach them.



Wow, where do I begin.
- Not all ninjas necessarily start in villages. You have to believe that there are people born outside of villages who can mold and use chakra; hell, we've seen it with the Fire Country monks. It makes sense that there would be villageless ninja clans.
- Yes, they might not be as good as your normal forces. But using them allows you to free up your quality ninjas.
- Why would they "need" to come to the village? It wouldn't be impossible for the countries to actually seek them out. I mean, they have to promote their services _somehow_, why not reach them through the normal channels?



> Kakashi stated it in chapter 9 page 16. Though the fan-translated version states "thousands" the official states "ten thousand". The context is quite clear that they're not talking about mercenary ninja, but ninja from their own village. Are you suggesting that thousands of ninja just, what, retire or died over...nothing?



What's the quote from the "official version"? The fan version does not make it explicit that they are talking about their villages, but about all ninja. I want to see the exact quote.

And before you say "Well, how are all ninja under their command if there are some outside of the villages", it could be in the same way that the President of the United States is the "leader of the free world".


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 26, 2009)

> How wouldn't they be able to sustain that many? They're an effective labor force that export themselves out to generate income for the village. They'd be cheap to maintain to an advanced city like Konoha. To say they couldn't sustain ninja is like saying they couldn't sustain a small army. Not even a small army. Two thousand is not that much.



Except to advance to the rank of Chuunin, you have to go through the Chuunin exam. If they didn't have to go through that, why doesn't Tsunade just upgrade Naruto to a Chuunin? Why does Shikamaru ask Naruto what he's going to do about the Chuunin exam?

There's no indication that there is _any_ way to advance outside of the Chuunin exam. Otherwise Naruto could just _ask_ for the promotion.



> The "today" is the 10k quote. And the more ninja they have the better, as they can take in more missions and generate more income.



It's not beyond the author to give a misquote (Such as the infamous "32,000 beans") when it's obvious that it's wrong given how you advance in rank.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 27, 2009)

Okay, you've convinced me.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 27, 2009)

This whole argument hinges upon one point: Is this all of Narutoverse working together in the same battle, or each village at a time? Without this bit of info that only the OP can provide, this argument is at a stalemate. 

If it was all of Narutoverse, then my tactic of stalling for Kamui works and the terminators lose.

If it's each village at a time, only Konoha stands a chance, since no other village possesses techniques that can harm the terminators.

EDIT: Here's a more detailed response to one of the posts earlier



Endless Mike said:


> What does that mean? It could be anything from 1 to 30 seconds or more.



It means that the transformation time didn't take hours. The time period is short enough for a normal person like Karin to react in surprise without being able to formulate a plan of action to combat the transformation. 

If the transformation had taken a significant length of time, they would have retreated to formulate a new plan of attack, given that Sasuke was out of the fight, Juugo was tired, Karin was out of chakra, and Suigetsu was their only fresh combatant. Either that or Suigetsu would have launched an attack at Killer Bee while he was transforming.



Endless Mike said:


> All of these won't be in the same battle at once....



That depends on whether the OP meant terminators vs. all of Narutoverse at once, or whether he meant they go around taking on villages one at a time. 


Endless Mike said:


> Pretty much the same? As there is no evidence otherwise.



That doesn't even make sense. How would ground that wasn't hit by the blast suffer the same amount of damage as ground that was in the way?

By your logic, you don't even need to aim the blast at all, since all targets in a 360 degree area around the bijuu will suffer the same damage.



Endless Mike said:


> Rosarius, or teleport away, or just kill them before they fire.



Rosarius tanking feats? All I've heard is that they can tank Lascannon shots, which are nowhere near main Titan weaponry.

Feats of teleporters being used tactically to dodge attacks?



Endless Mike said:


> As many as can be mobilized at once. It's not like a village is an easy place to navigate or form large masses of armies.
> 
> And thus worthless.



How is fodder worthless? Each bolter round a fodder tanks is one less being shot at the elites who can damage/kill the terminators.



Endless Mike said:


> Luffy fought 10,000 marines at Enies Lobby....



How many of them had names? By your logic, they were all worthless.



Endless Mike said:


> Strawman. I said that that is generally the most we see engaging in battle at any given time.



The manga takes place in a time of peace, after two great ninja wars have already been fought. That's a good explanation for why we haven't seen huge armies engaging each other. 



Endless Mike said:


> I'm too lazy to look it up. Post a scan.



this



Endless Mike said:


> Anyway, any less than 1000 at once will be easy for the Terminators to kill, unless there are tons of top tiers.



Each fodder can also do jutsu to distract the terminators. They aren't just running around yelling and shouting and waving their arms.

For example, out of the named characters who's abilities we know, Sai can create numerous attackers and distractions made of ink, and doesn't even have to involve his own body in the battle until he runs out of ink/chakra.

Yamato can create wooden attacks and defenses. A wall of wood could tank 2 or 3 bolter shots, meaning less shots hitting ninja.

Sasori is 300 ninja by himself. Until he runs out of puppets, he won't have to involve himself in the battle personally. 

All of these jutsu won't harm the terminators, but it will serve to distract them long enough for jutsu that WILL harm them to be prepared.



Endless Mike said:


> When did I say named characters? I said characters we have actually seen fighting, that have actually been shown.



There have been dozens shown fighting in small skirmishes, and those aren't even full-blown wars or large battles. 

The only large battle that's taken place in the entire manga is the invasion of Konoha, and that was still only Sound, a tiny village, and and small group of Sand ninja. We know it wasn't a huge portion of Sand's standing army because Sand's military wasn't significantly weakened by being defeated in Konoha. 



Endless Mike said:


> Of course not. But show me one scene where there are thousands, or even hundreds, of ninjas fighting at once.



Sasuke vs. Orochimaru's fodder ninja.

such

That's the most obvious example that comes to mind.

There are others, I'm sure, but I don't want to spend hours digging through the chapters to find them.



Endless Mike said:


> I was claiming normal bolters.



Do Terminators even carry normal bolters? I thought they used Stormbolters. And in any case, how does a Terminator hold a Thunderhammer and a Stormshield, and a bolter?
[QUOTEhttp://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/343/04-05/]
They would if they were surrounded by so many enemies that Pain would not be an opportune target. It would hurt the ninjas more than the Terminators anyway.[/QUOTE]

The squad should be roughly in the same area. Pein just targets that area and sends the ground flying into the air, along with everyone standing on that piece of ground. With the whole squad in the air along with several ninja, the bijuu open fire on defenseless targets who can't control where they're going.


Endless Mike said:


> Wrong. It's just shorter ranged without them.



Feats for terminator teleportation without orbital support?



Endless Mike said:


> You missed a few on the last page.



Like what? The plasma reactor feat isn't usable because it's based on a piece of codex fluff, with no actual feats to back it up.



TasteTheDifference said:


> Btw both the active Plasma reactor and being stepped on by a Titan things are definitely true, in the latter case it was explicitly a durability feat as it was used to illustrate a new rule making terminators more survivable.



The plasma reactor fluff isn't a feat. It's just a piece of codex fluff that people have twisted to include things like terminators walking on the sun.



Guy Gardner said:


> To quote the "Plasma Generator" feat from the Space Marine Codex (5th Edition)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The feat has no data to back it up.

How long can the armor withstand those temperatures? How injured is the marine upon exiting the reactor? Etc.

And again, just because we see less than 100 named characters for each village doesn't mean there's only that many ninja in the entire village.

Think about this: before the Chunnin exams, we had no idea who Team 10, Team 8, and Team Gai were. Then, we're suddenly introduced to them, and our character list is more than doubled. Does this mean they didn't exist before this?

Instead of stating that "oh, since we've only seen a few dozen named characters, that means all of konoha probably only has around a hundred ninja," think about the actual events which have taken place. Two major world wars have been fought between the 5 great villages. You can't have wars between groups of a hundred people. 

And think about this: grass is supposed to be a small ninja village. If Konoha only has around 100 people like you say, then shouldn't grass consist of a dozen ninja? Instead, we see a pretty big group meeting with Hanzou. 

Then there's the Sound army. Sound is also a small village, but they were able to field dozens of combatants in invading Konoha.


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 27, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Rosarius tanking feats? All I've heard is that they can tank Lascannon shots, which are nowhere near main Titan weaponry.



Lascannons, in numbers, can take down larger titans. They have enough armor-piercing capacity, it's more an issue of not causing enough damage across the titan which is the issue.



> The feat has no data to back it up.
> 
> How long can the armor withstand those temperatures? How injured is the marine upon exiting the reactor? Etc.



I never presented it as proof, I simply presented the quote.



> And again, just because we see less than 100 named characters for each village doesn't mean there's only that many ninja in the entire village.
> 
> Think about this: before the Chunnin exams, we had no idea who Team 10, Team 8, and Team Gai were. Then, we're suddenly introduced to them, and our character list is more than doubled. Does this mean they didn't exist before this?



The logistics of the Chuunin exam and how many genin showed up disprove the idea of thousands of ninjas. It's not sustainable when you're getting maybe two or three Chuunin a year for your village.



> Instead of stating that "oh, since we've only seen a few dozen named characters, that means all of konoha probably only has around a hundred ninja," think about the actual events which have taken place. Two major world wars have been fought between the 5 great villages. You can't have wars between groups of a hundred people.



Certainly you could, depending on how big the world actually is and how powerful the people are. Ninjas are damn powerful, can cover a great deal of ground and can secure a large area if it isn't contested.

And if you need to round out those numbers, mercenary ninja clans could certainly make up the large amount of the occupying forces.



> And think about this: grass is supposed to be a small ninja village. If Konoha only has around 100 people like you say, then shouldn't grass consist of a dozen ninja? Instead, we see a pretty big group meeting with Hanzou.



Is it said that the Grass is a small village, or simply not one of the major ones? Size does not necessarily reflect quality, either; they could have the same amount of ninjas as the Leaf, but they wouldn't be nearly as good.



> Then there's the Sound army. Sound is also a small village, but they were able to field dozens of combatants in invading Konoha.



That's perfectly logical, as they certainly weren't up to the quality that the Leaf had. The Sound probably had inferior ninja rounding out their ranks, unlike the Leaf who have only a hundred or so ninja, but they are _quality_ ninja.

And if I were invading the greatest ninja village in the world, I'd certainly commit the majority of my forces.

For those of you who are preaching a larger village, you need to explain how that can exist within the bounds of what the Chuunin Exam has shown us. At the moment, anything more than a hundred or so would be unsustainable.


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## Sylar (Sep 27, 2009)

I think people just can't wrap their heads around the fact that Kishi is a bad writer.


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 28, 2009)

There's no point in debating with madcow. He'll just put you on his ignore list when he knows he's grasping for straws and all his points have been countered numerous times.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 28, 2009)

Guy Gardner said:


> Lascannons, in numbers, can take down larger titans. They have enough armor-piercing capacity, it's more an issue of not causing enough damage across the titan which is the issue.



That may be true, but a Lascannon still isn't as powerful as main Titan weaponry, is it?

Just because you can tank a Lascannon shot, doesn't mean you can tank a Volcano Cannon shot.



Guy Gardner said:


> The logistics of the Chuunin exam and how many genin showed up disprove the idea of thousands of ninjas. It's not sustainable when you're getting maybe two or three Chuunin a year for your village.



How does the Chunnin exam numbers coincide with how many nameless Anbu there are, then?

If only roughly 3 people make Chuunin per year, and all of Anbu is Chuunin or Jounin, and Anbu die like fodder by the dozens, doesn't this mean Konoha is losing soldiers many, MANY times faster than they churn them out?


Guy Gardner said:


> That's perfectly logical, as they certainly weren't up to the quality that the Leaf had. The Sound probably had inferior ninja rounding out their ranks, unlike the Leaf who have only a hundred or so ninja, but they are _quality_ ninja.



Unskilled fodder in large numbers can still tank bullets with their bodies. It's even better for Narutoverse if you claim that all the small villages has as many ninja as the large villages.


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## Fang (Sep 28, 2009)

ANBU are made up of Chuunins of Jounins, Itachi when he became a Missing-Nin despite working for ANBU was technically still a Chuunin. Hence the creation of a sub-division or unit in ANBU such as the Hunter Killers who track down missings ninjas like Zabuza or Itachi from Konohagakura or Kirigakura.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 28, 2009)

I quoted the wrong post. Sue me.



> If you weren't contesting that any hills were destroyed, just that the hills many miles away from the fight weren't knocked over, it's a  straw man response.



What? I'm saying that the damage was localized. There is no evidence it stretched for miles as some people are claiming.



> Prove it.



Occam's razor. It's more likely to be PIS than some random unexplained factor about Terrorsight that can't even be accurately described or predicted.



> I can't explain chakra, but that isn't the case here. It only...what's the word that won't cause nitpicking...erased several million cubic meters of dirt from existence with no evidence to suggest where it went.



Except only Kakashi's technique has shown the ability to do something like that. 



> No it wasn't. You suggested only a few hundred.



I was talking about Guy's response.



> Fodder relative to what? Naruto or Warhammer 40k?



Both



> How are they going to get the information for Hit-and-Run tactics. They have no surveillence.



They can stake out the areas and observe from longe range for a bit.  



> If it comes down to it, they'll be used. Terminators won't be able to get out of the way quickly enough.



Prove it



> You can just say "I'm going to leave this debate to somebody else" if you don't want to debate with me over it.



I don't see the point in restating what has already been said.



> I didn't ask how often they can be used, I ask how quickly they can be used. Prove Terminators can do something similar to this with their teleporters. But if you can tell me how often they can use their teleporters, that would be great.



In Nightbringer they teleported aboard a Dark Eldar ship which would have to be pretty fast since those ships are fast and can get out of range quickly.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 29, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> I quoted the wrong post. Sue me.
> 
> 
> 
> What? I'm saying that the damage was localized. There is no evidence it stretched for miles as some people are claiming.


So twice you bring up red herrings because it's somebody else's argument? 



> Occam's razor. It's more likely to be PIS than some random unexplained factor about Terrorsight that can't even be accurately described or predicted.


Occam's Razor does not work for outside context answers like PIS. Do you think "God did it" is the correct answer over evolution, because it's more simple? No. Provide in-universe reasoning as to why Terrorsight is not activated 24/7 or concede the subject.



> Except only Kakashi's technique has shown the ability to do something like that.


Apparently not anymore. We have a huge chunk of land missing with no indication as to where it went. 


> I was talking about Guy's response.


Of course, you just had to mention that now instead of making it appear as if you brought it up before.



> Both


Naruto fodder are comparable to Eldar in speed, who can aim dodge Space Marines.



> They can stake out the areas and observe from longe range for a bit.


You can't look at a city of buildings with a huge wall around it and get intel from sight. You need maps and a strategy, things that take specific equipment and a long time to develope.



> Prove it


By any WH40k standard, Terminator's are slow. A titan steps on one is evident enough of this. 

Inb4PIS.



> I don't see the point in restating what has already been said.


Then why don't you mention what you're referring to next time instead of waffling "Already covered."



> In Nightbringer they teleported aboard a Dark Eldar ship which would have to be pretty fast since those ships are fast and can get out of range quickly.


You told me that they can teleport and have long range. 

Now what we need for your "they teleport to safety" argument to happen is:
1. Charge Time. How long does it take to charge up between jumps?
2. Activation speed. How fast can they activate it once charged?
3. Re-usability. How many times can they use this in a period of time?

Everything I recall about Terminators are they teleport once inside to kill important objectives, and teleport out after that. They don't teleport around in a firefight to dodge gunfire.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 29, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> So twice you bring up red herrings because it's somebody else's argument?



Are you even paying attention? I said I responded to the wrong post by accident. 



> Occam's Razor does not work for outside context answers like PIS. Do you think "God did it" is the correct answer over evolution, because it's more simple? No. Provide in-universe reasoning as to why Terrorsight is not activated 24/7 or concede the subject.



PIS is acceptable when there is no other explanation. You don't have one.



> Apparently not anymore. We have a huge chunk of land missing with no indication as to where it went.



So unquantifiable, I guess like you said. I don't see the point since they would kill Naruto before he got to that state. If they fought him at all.



> Of course, you just had to mention that now instead of making it appear as if you brought it up before.



What?



> Naruto fodder are comparable to Eldar in speed, who can aim dodge Space Marines.



But still get killed by them. BTW I found a quote for speed.



			
				Ultramarines Omnibus said:
			
		

> Heavy calibre shells ripped a path towards him, but he jinked to one side, avoiding the hail of bullets.



Regarding Uriel Ventris, who is a normal SM.



> You can't look at a city of buildings with a huge wall around it and get intel from sight. You need maps and a strategy, things that take specific equipment and a long time to develope.



They have all the time in the world. Narutoverse doesn't even know they're there until they decide to attack. They could also capture someone and interrogate them.



> By any WH40k standard, Terminator's are slow. A titan steps on one is evident enough of this.
> 
> Inb4PIS.



No one has yet posted the context of that feat anyway.



> Then why don't you mention what you're referring to next time instead of waffling "Already covered."



What are you talking about? It was already covered, why should I need to say anything more? You are just being obnoxious now for no reason.



> You told me that they can teleport and have long range.
> 
> Now what we need for your "they teleport to safety" argument to happen is:
> 1. Charge Time. How long does it take to charge up between jumps?



The fight on the Dark Eldar ship couldn't have lasted more than a few minutes.



> 2. Activation speed. How fast can they activate it once charged?



Fast enough to escape the Dark Eldar



> 3. Re-usability. How many times can they use this in a period of time?



Really no limit, but every time they use it it has a risk. So it shouldn't be used that often.



> Everything I recall about Terminators are they teleport once inside to kill important objectives, and teleport out after that. They don't teleport around in a firefight to dodge gunfire.



I'm only suggesting they would do that against a huge attack they couldn't avoid, which would be very rare anyway.


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## Guy Gardner (Sep 29, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> That may be true, but a Lascannon still isn't as powerful as main Titan weaponry, is it?
> 
> Just because you can tank a Lascannon shot, doesn't mean you can tank a Volcano Cannon shot.



There is a difference, yes. But tanking a lascannon shot is no small feat.



> How does the Chunnin exam numbers coincide with how many nameless Anbu there are, then?
> 
> If only roughly 3 people make Chuunin per year, and all of Anbu is Chuunin or Jounin, and Anbu die like fodder by the dozens, doesn't this mean Konoha is losing soldiers many, MANY times faster than they churn them out?



Simple: They don't all die. You'd be surprised at the number of people in war who are simply wounded rather than dead at the end of the day. I don't remember all too many Konoha nins "dying in dozens", however. Only during the Pein invasion, and the fallout from that has yet to be fully explored (And likely never will be).

Also, now that I think about it, more than 3 could theoretically make it per year. Konoha is likely to be the majority of any Chuunin exam finalists, so they'll probably have 4, 5, or 6 at any given exam. Since they make the promotions themselves, you probably could have 4-6 per exam, or 3 on a really conservative end (Maybe it was a really bad year for talent). You'll still get between 6 and 12 Chuunin, which will offset any losses you take in the field and maybe net you a few extra. To be honest, I'd wager that the exam we saw probably would have gotten 3-5 Chuunin from Konoha if the Sand/Sound hadn't attacked: Shikamaru, Shino, and Sasuke were certainly ready. Neji and Naruto would have been toss-ups.

At any rate, that's enough to sustain a hundred or so ninja (Maybe 150, 200 might be pushing it). It's still far off the level you'd need to sustain thousands over multiple years.



> Unskilled fodder in large numbers can still tank bullets with their bodies. It's even better for Narutoverse if you claim that all the small villages has as many ninja as the large villages.



But I'm not arguing that. I _agree_ with you on that. I'm simply stating that lesser villages don't necessarily have fewer people. They likely have the same amount, simply at a lower quality. That's all. 

I reiterate: I don't think the Terminators win this battle. A lot of Space Marine dominance comes from them being the masters of multi-level warfare and consolidated command: They have direct naval and air support for everything they need to do, where-as other forces have to go through other command structures, etc. Terminators have a lot of impressive feats, but they _will_ lose to the Narutoverse. There are simply too many ninja, and people are really underrating how powerful superior numbers is when combined with firepower.


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