# The Problems with Modern-day Shonen



## Bluebeard (Apr 4, 2010)

No, I'm not making a list or anything. I just want to see what people have to think about any problems that plague the Shonen genre nowadays.


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## ensoriki (Apr 4, 2010)

Manga's focusing too much on one moment/character or idea, messing with their pacing and screwing with their hype.

Uninteresting resolutions to conflicts, or resolutions that leave far too many holes that don't get resolved.
Finally relatively unintelligent(or spiky haired) protagonists that are really adept at fighting, think it's been overused and takes away from manga's now.


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## Jetshade (Apr 4, 2010)

Too many damn enemies, power-ups, etc.


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## Gallant (Apr 4, 2010)

The oversaturation of Goku clones since Dragonball.

The lack of consistently good writing. Far too many shounen these days have that one good arc(or two sometimes) that will draw in a massive amount of fans. Then from that point on the writing takes a hit and its almost always all downhill from there. I bet most people can identify these arcs among the most popular shounen floating around. Although in some cases this also happens because a manga is getting rushed to end so the mangaka can work on a new series. Most recent example I can think of this is Seishi rushing 666 Satan which was good to start the garbage that is Blazer Drive. Or a manga just gets cancelled.

Shounen being watered down these days. Some series that ran two decades ago would get classified as a seinen manga in a lot of cases. Unless its running in the likes of Weekly Shounen Magazine or something. You can tell the effect when you see people being amazed that manga like Death Note and Bloody Monday are actually shounen and not seinen.

The rise in harem manga and a lot of the downright tiresome tropes that come along with them. Despite what people complain about regarding ecchi in general, ecchi stories have been a part of shounen ever since the 60s and started with Go Nagai. It is just that too much pandering and the growing Otaku vermin in Japan have made the genre static somewhat. You can pretty much take all the cliches in the book and just repackage them slightly and they will still eat it up. This also keeps the genre far too static so that when mangaka actually do go outside of the box, an army of Otaku degenerates throw a bitch fit and screw with the mangaka. If anyone remembers the Kannagi and Good Ending incidents, those are prime examples of what I mean.

Mangaka spawning series that become too big that they can't end it when they want and when the story is still making sense. Togashi and Toriyama are probably two of the biggest examples from WSJ's golden age. In the case of Togashi, if I remember right they kept trying to get him to extend Yu Yu Hakusho which is probably why it fizzled out the way it did. Toriyama wanted to initially end Dragonball at the Freiza saga and leaving Gohan to be the next generation defender of Earth. We see this even more blatantly played out when Toriyama extended the story and the events of the Cell saga happened the way they did to once again remove Goku from the picture at the end of the arc and leaving Gohan behind. By the time the Buu saga comes around, the amount of executive meddling becomes clearer and Toriyama couldn't really tell the story exactly how he wanted. Which, in my opinion, showed because the writing for the Buu saga was the weakest part of the story for me and the least enjoyable. Thankfully, Dragonball didn't get dragged out any further after that. But even in recent shounen, you can see traces of this same exact syndrome. It is fine for a shounen manga to be popular, but its popularity shouldn't be what actually ends up killing the story.

Also sequels, Part 2s, and time-skips tend to not live up to the first portions of their stories 9 times out of 10 from my experience. At least when it comes to modern shounen. Breaking things up disrupt the flow for one and mangaka often love retconning events that happened in the first portions just to fit what is happening in their current story. Too bad the current story by that time mostly tends to suck.


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## Will Smith (Apr 4, 2010)

Too many people living in Toriyama's shadow.


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## Inuhanyou (Apr 4, 2010)

The simple lack of real innovation in the marketplace  

But personally, the fans of those series's eat up whatever is put out regardless, so i doubt the industry sees any real reason to change.


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## Bluebeard (Apr 4, 2010)

ensoriki said:


> Manga's focusing too much on one moment/character or idea, messing with their pacing and screwing with their hype.
> 
> Uninteresting resolutions to conflicts, or resolutions that leave far too many holes that don't get resolved.
> Finally relatively unintelligent(or spiky haired) protagonists that are really adept at fighting, think it's been overused and takes away from manga's now.



I dislike this as well as it is sort of lame to focus on just one major event or have the main character be the center of everything, I believe a central theme gives the series a flow of connectivity. Note, not a gimmick, but a theme such as the importance of friends (although it is overdone), hope in the darkest moments, or an emphasis on family (real family which his something that needs to be done more often instead of the orphan protagonist). 

I also hate when a writer leaves an unsatisfying conclusion to a battle or a story arc. If during the whole battle the hero has been getting knocked around through buildings, don?t have him pull a new technique out of his ass and roll with it, but instead give us a logical conclusion. Same with the build-up to a resolution of the end of an arc; it should wrap up the arc, not leaves holes open. 

I also dislike unintelligent heroes. It has gotten to the point that it not only affects the story, but the battles as well. I want to see a hero who uses his brain and strategy to fight, not just who can fire the most energy beams or punch harder. I would also like to see a character who sets traps in the area before the battle starts, which would be a creative method of fighting and something not usually done in Manga. 

Spiky haired heroes are also a problem. Not the whole problem though. Uninspired designs are the real problem. Too many artists copy off each other instead of giving themselves a central art style and unique character designs and the result is a bunch of Bishonen, generally boring motherfuckers.


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## yo586 (Apr 5, 2010)

Inuhanyou said:


> The simple lack of real innovation in the marketplace



Agreed, formulaic writing is the main issue I see.

Except there are a lot of good new Shonen out there that are unique and have potential (ie Toriko, Gamaran, Psyren, etc).  Seems there was just a bit of a rough period.


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## Blinky (Apr 5, 2010)

> The oversaturation of Goku clones since Dragonball.



That sums it up for me .


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## LUCIFE2 (Apr 5, 2010)

Copying off of Toriyama? how?

alot of different authors have uniqe styles and technique.

youre too narrow minded


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## MdB (Apr 5, 2010)

Too much Otaku garbage, manga entirely depending on titillation instead of good writing and storytelling. This applies for anime as well. And the hypocrisy of it, people bitch and moan how there's simply too much fanservice trite, nonetheless eat it up because it's from a Japanese storytelling medium. If anything, that's plain retardation.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Apr 5, 2010)

Cliche speeches about friendship and courage and how friendship and courage resolves every problem of the world, this kind of thing has been used to death in shonen manga and is one of those things that tend to annoy me when i see it, specially because not many authors can make them good and so 90% of the time those said speeches barely make any sense and sound incredible cheesy and dumb.


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## Freija (Apr 5, 2010)

ensoriki said:


> Manga's focusing too much on one moment/character or idea, messing with their pacing and screwing with their hype.
> 
> Uninteresting resolutions to conflicts, or resolutions that leave far too many holes that don't get resolved.
> Finally relatively unintelligent(or spiky haired) protagonists that are really adept at fighting, think it's been overused and takes away from manga's now.



Where's Recca


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## seaofjealousy (Apr 5, 2010)

Gallant said:


> The oversaturation of Goku clones since Dragonball.


This.

The reason why manga has been Ideally dead since 1980.


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## The Imp (Apr 5, 2010)

seaofjealousy said:


> This.
> 
> The reason why manga has been Ideally dead since 1980.



You do realize that Dragonball wasn't even being published until the mid 80's, right?


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## Momoka (Apr 5, 2010)

Girls with big boobs to get some attention


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## iamthewalrus (Apr 5, 2010)

seaofjealousy said:


> This.
> 
> The reason why manga has been Ideally dead since 1980.



disagree,  Dragonball was a fun manga when it came out.  There is plenty of stuff from the 90s that was good, however with dragonball getting so popular you could start to see the influence it had on the other mangas.  By 2010, shonen mangas have become either dragonball clones or purely for fanservice. 

Its not all glum, there are some good dragonball clones out there (one piece) and there are some mangas that I believe are pretty original such as psyren or fma.

Its just otakus and the kids have shown to eat up whatever given to them so the medium has yet to change.  There will always be fanservice manga (its in the culture), but we can at least have some refreshing mangas that raise the bar once in awhile...

Or we can just move to seinen


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## MdB (Apr 5, 2010)

iamthewalrus said:


> Or we can just move to seinen



Because seinen manga aren't doing the exact same thing. Who told you that?


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## iamthewalrus (Apr 5, 2010)

MdB said:


> Because seinen manga aren't doing the exact same thing. Who told you that?



You're right , I haven't read that much of newer seinen out there.  I would hope that it would better then the shonen that is coming out at the moment though.


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## MdB (Apr 5, 2010)

You can't compare the quality of seinen with shounen and vice versa since they're nothing more than categories specifically made to target a demographic. They have no inherent storytelling value.


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## emROARS (Apr 5, 2010)

Moe
Harem
Overused Goku plot
Rushing

That's it methinks


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## iamthewalrus (Apr 5, 2010)

MdB said:


> You can't compare the quality of seinen with shounen and vice versa since they're nothing more than categories specifically made to target a demographic. They have no inherent storytelling value.



but they play on different tropes a lot of the time, therefore if you're sick of typical shonen tropes (goku, harem, etc) you can move on to another category that might not have as many.

I wasn't trying to compare them quality wise.  In my initial post I was trying to say that if you're sick with a category, maybe you should try another one that targets a different demographic.


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## Dream Brother (Apr 5, 2010)

Gallant said:


> You can tell the effect when you see people being amazed that manga like Death Note and Bloody Monday are actually shounen and not seinen.



Mhm, I remember being really surprised when I heard that _Death Note_ was shounen. And speaking of that series, I'm always puzzled at the negative reception it receives from a lot of hardcore manga fans. It's one of the most original manga series' I've ever read (let alone within the shounen genre), and has a pretty damn good execution, to boot. It's obviously flawed and has issues, but I really enjoyed it when it was at its best, and it certainly flies in the face of the usual formula. (Granted, it isn't completely free of formulaic elements, such as the traditional Shounen Rival dynamic, but I think on the whole it really takes things to an interesting level, especially in comparison to the less gutsy series' around.)


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## Superstars (Apr 5, 2010)

COPY PASTA DRAGONBALL

That's why I commened series like YUGIOH and Death Note!


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## cha-uzu (Apr 5, 2010)

2 things for me... 

- Too much fan driven storylines. Just because a characters popular don't sacrifice the story to make them look good.

- Too many curvacious dime body gals/women, yet nobdy wants to smash/hit/sex em at all! Like... Come'on... Like damn the nose bleeds... Grab somethin!


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## Sasaki Kojirō (Apr 5, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> Mhm, I remember being really surprised when I heard that _Death Note_ was shounen. And speaking of that series, I'm always puzzled at the negative reception it receives from a lot of hardcore manga fans. It's one of the most original manga series' I've ever read (let alone within the shounen genre), and has a pretty damn good execution, to boot. It's obviously flawed and has issues, but I really enjoyed it when it was at its best, and it certainly flies in the face of the usual formula. (Granted, it isn't completely free of formulaic elements, such as the traditional Shounen Rival dynamic, but I think on the whole it really takes things to an interesting level, especially in comparison to the less gutsy series' around.)



I'd say the first half was excellent.  Then after a certain someone dies the author pretty much recycled the character and it became incredibly boring.  I hear the author was also pressured to change the original ending which would explain why it was so OOC and lame.

It does get more hate then it should considering what's popular right now.


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## DarkLordOfKichiku (Apr 5, 2010)

Let's see...

- Too many similar main characters, maybe. The image of the to a lesser or greater degree stupid, good-hearted, unswelfing - maybe even Jesus-like pacifist main character is getting old.  People are starting to wish for more unscrupulous, practial, badass characters now. It's why characters like Toriko in Toriko or Shioon in The Breaker are more interesting as min characters. The mangakas seem to have forgotten that a good-natured character doesn't have to be pacifists nor stupid to be good...

- mangakas appear to get lazy at some point. Bleach's was great up until after the Soul Society arc, but thereafter... Same with Part 1 of Naruto. It's like when they've finailly succeeded with making their stuff great, the mangakas lose their edge and it goes downhill from there.

- non-main characters - often, it seems like the author will lose interest in all other characters besides the main character(s) , meaning they get hardly any development or attention as time go by. Ont hat subject, I believe that non-main characters could use a higher mortality rate as well. It gets boring and predictable - not to mention unrealisitic, but as this is fiction, it's not a major point - when character supposedly use lethal techniques that are supposed to be their deaths or are killed or lethaly injured oinly to be miraculously saved...

- Repeated arc ideas - "Save arcs" and "Training arcs" are usually rather similar and can get rather boring...



cha-uzu said:


> 2 things for me...
> - Too many curvacious dime body gals/women, yet nobdy wants to smash/hit/sex em at all! Like... Come'on... Like damn the nose bleeds... Grab somethin!



Haha, you know, the main characters that actually do try to "grab on soemthing" are usually the ones that gets their face kicked and stuff, you know?  . Though maybe that's preferravle to seeing characters (and teenagers no less) that who are passive, waiting forever for the female character(s) to me the first move...


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## cha-uzu (Apr 5, 2010)

DarkLordOfKichiku said:


> Let's see...
> 
> - Too many similar main characters, maybe. The image of the to a lesser or greater degree stupid, good-hearted, unswelfing - maybe even Jesus-like pacifist main character is getting old.  People are starting to wish for more unscrupulous, practial, badass characters now. It's why characters like Toriko in Toriko or Shioon in The Breaker are more interesting as min characters. The mangakas seem to have forgotten that a good-natured character doesn't have to be pacifists nor stupid to be good...
> 
> ...


Well, i think its more or less that when I was in school i would have killed to have so many options! LOL they always seem horrorfied when a gal is dressed a lil risque. 

I guess according to shonun law... 
Training >>>>> Boobs

Chasing a best friend >>>>>> Gettin some.

I agree with all you said. I wonder is it the mangakas or the businessmen behind the scenes that cause the seemingly lazy writing.


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## Lord Genome (Apr 5, 2010)

bad writers


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## MdB (Apr 5, 2010)

iamthewalrus said:


> but they play on different tropes a lot of the time, therefore if you're sick of typical shonen tropes (goku, harem, etc) you can move on to another category that might not have as many.



They're age categorizations, not genres. The content or subject matter indicate the tropes and conventions.


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## Pompous (Apr 5, 2010)

Gintama is a good example of modern shonen that does it's own thing and fucking owns. 


Lord Genome said:


> bad writers


Bad artists


MdB said:


> They're age categorizations, not genres. The content or subject matter indicate the tropes and conventions.



Truth. Look at Ultra Jump, sure it's seinen but most aren't exactly that different from Shonen Jump.


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## Superstars (Apr 5, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> bad writers



This.
I mean we got video game writers that are better than anyone in shounen right now. Hideo Kojima can write stories and good epic battles in Metal Gear Solid series.


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Apr 5, 2010)

DarkLordOfKichiku said:


> - Too many similar main characters, maybe. The image of the to a lesser or greater degree stupid, good-hearted, unswelfing - maybe even Jesus-like pacifist main character is getting old.  People are starting to wish for more unscrupulous, practial, badass characters now. It's why characters like Toriko in Toriko or Shioon in The Breaker are more interesting as min characters. The mangakas seem to have forgotten that a good-natured character doesn't have to be pacifists nor stupid to be good...



But stupid is easier to write. A stupid main character means that the world can be explained to that character and through that also to the reader.

In a series where the main character knows everything beforehand then someone else will have to pick up the role of the "stupid". Compare Toriko and Naruto.

I do agree, however. Just wanted to point out why it's done.



DarkLordOfKichiku said:


> - mangakas appear to get lazy at some point. Bleach's was great up until after the Soul Society arc, but thereafter... Same with Part 1 of Naruto. It's like when they've finailly succeeded with making their stuff great, the mangakas lose their edge and it goes downhill from there.



I think it has to do with several things
A: Pressure from editors to improve the potential for merchandise
B: The authors are pressured to work on a VERY tight schedule. Gets tired of pace.
C: They work for long duration on the same thing and will naturally get a bit tired of it.



DarkLordOfKichiku said:


> - non-main characters - often, it seems like the author will lose interest in all other characters besides the main character(s) , meaning they get hardly any development or attention as time go by. Ont hat subject, I believe that non-main characters could use a higher mortality rate as well. It gets boring and predictable - not to mention unrealisitic, but as this is fiction, it's not a major point - when character supposedly use lethal techniques that are supposed to be their deaths or are killed or lethaly injured oinly to be miraculously saved...



I think it has less to do with interest and more to do with the previous point. If they lose interest in the manga as a whole then if they keep on working on it the least they will have to do is write about the main character... Hence everyone else gets neglected.



DarkLordOfKichiku said:


> - Repeated arc ideas - "Save arcs" and "Training arcs" are usually rather similar and can get rather boring...



Yeah... Those get so boring after a while. Let's not forget tournament arcs.


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## seaofjealousy (Apr 5, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> Mhm, I remember being really surprised when I heard that _Death Note_ was shounen. And speaking of that series, I'm always puzzled at the negative reception it receives from a lot of hardcore manga fans. It's* one of the most original manga series*' I've ever read (let alone within the shounen genre), and has a pretty damn good execution, to boot. It's obviously flawed and has issues, but I really enjoyed it when it was at its best, and it certainly flies in the face of the usual formula. (Granted, it isn't completely free of formulaic elements, such as the traditional Shounen Rival dynamic, but I think on the whole it really takes things to an interesting level, especially in comparison to the less gutsy series' around.)



Too bad it's not.


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## Bluebeard (Apr 5, 2010)

Let's talk about another problem with Shonen currently.

The lack of creative powers or techniques in _combat-based_ Shounen.


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## seaofjealousy (Apr 5, 2010)

cha-uzu said:


> I think it has to do with several things
> A: Pressure from editors to improve the potential for merchandise
> B: The authors are pressured to work on a VERY tight schedule. Gets tired of pace.
> C: They work for long duration on the same thing and will naturally get a bit tired of it.





DarkLordOfKichiku said:


> - mangakas appear to get lazy at some point. Bleach's was great up until after the Soul Society arc, but thereafter... Same with Part 1 of Naruto. It's like when they've finailly succeeded with making their stuff great, the mangakas lose their edge and it goes downhill from there.



that's the way the manga system works, the majority of the time it plays harder on shounen, where popularity, deadlines, and most freaking annoyingly, questionnaires and popularity polls(damn you Ozamu Tezuka!) breaks most artists, the ones who actually pass this like Kishimoto and Kubo can afford to relax since they are constantly meeting expectations in those things, and don't really focus intensely on the art or the  writing in general.


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## Dream Brother (Apr 5, 2010)

seaofjealousy said:


> Too bad it's not.



Is there a reason why you linked an April Fools article alongside a seemingly serious article? Is there some mistake there, or was that just random fun? Bit confused.

Anyway, in regard to the second article, 'tis a very interesting read. I'd actually love to read that series they mention, just to see the parallels and differences between that and DN.



> I'd say the first half was excellent. Then after a certain someone dies the author pretty much recycled the character and it became incredibly boring. I hear the author was also pressured to change the original ending which would explain why it was so OOC and lame.
> 
> It does get more hate then it should considering what's popular right now.



Aye, agreed. In fact I actually got a bit bored before that point...but the point you mention is the most definite pivot into a 'slump'. Wonder what would have happened if the author had finished it just after That Guy's death. Major downer, would have been fun to see the reactions of the fans.


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## seaofjealousy (Apr 5, 2010)

Dream Brother said:


> Is there a reason why you linked an April Fools article alongside a seemingly serious article? Is there some mistake there, or was that just random fun? Bit confused.


just dry humor, I couldn't resist.


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## Judge Fudge (Apr 5, 2010)

A thread about people looking into the over saturation of comic books made for young boys 

Really?



DarkLordOfKichiku said:


> - mangakas appear to get lazy at some point. Bleach's was great up until after the Soul Society arc, but thereafter... Same with Part 1 of Naruto. It's like when they've finailly succeeded with making their stuff great, the mangakas lose their edge and it goes downhill from there.


This is what happens when you start reading comics after the age of twelve


seaofjealousy said:


> that's the way the manga system works, the majority of the time it plays harder on shounen, where popularity, deadlines, and most freaking annoyingly, questionnaires and popularity polls(damn you Ozamu Tezuka!) breaks most artists, the ones who actually pass this like Kishimoto and Kubo can afford to relax since they are constantly meeting expectations in those things, and don't really focus intensely on the art or the  writing in general.


Well, yes and no, it's alot to say that the mangaka is lazy rather than just admitting that you don't like how the story is going, if they weren't giving their all then people would stop buying their manga, it's as simple as that. 
If you were to deconstruct any shounen manga they'll are wind up being pretty shitty by comparison.


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## Will Smith (Apr 5, 2010)

Another problem is that the only good shounen magazine left is Monthly Gangan. Everything else either looks like shit or is shit.



Superstars said:


> COPY PASTA DRAGONBALL
> 
> That's why I commened series like YUGIOH and Death Note!



And, how long have those series been finished?



cha-uzu said:


> Too much fan driven storylines. Just because a characters popular don't sacrifice the story to make them look good.



WORD, rep.


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## Bluebeard (Apr 5, 2010)

Bluebeard said:


> Let's talk about another problem with Shonen currently.
> 
> The lack of creative powers or techniques in _combat-based_ Shounen.


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## Judge Fudge (Apr 5, 2010)

Tekken said:


> Another problem is that the only good shounen magazine left is *Monthly Gangan*. Everything else either looks like shit or is shit.





cha-uzu said:


> - Too much fan driven storylines. Just because a characters popular don't sacrifice the story to make them look good.


The irony in this is that almost every shounen has done this is some shape or form, fans shouldn't drive the story but they have in alot of occasions, it doesn't distract any significance in the story unless you don't like the character  


cha-uzu said:


> - Too many curvacious dime body gals/women, yet nobdy wants to smash/hit/sex em at all! Like... Come'on... Like damn the nose bleeds... Grab somethin!


May I remind you you're reading a manga which target demographic are young boys?


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## Will Smith (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm sorry, but was that suppose to be witty? lol. ^


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## gumby2ms (Apr 5, 2010)

my favorite manga are all seinin. shounen are popular because they can remove elements of real life. It would be nice if shounen main character could be background, ie, the medic, or loose battles or straight out loose friends, battles and support. They get close but often these kinds of things only happen in seinin and that is why I like them. In combat based shounin battles have to be lengthened out for no reason, i prefer quick and ruthless. Also the idea of split personalities is annoying in that it is overplayed. Basically the inability to make the main character inferior and let him stay that way, but it wouldn't be cool to have a protagonist without a A type personality, I guess,? so I stick with what I like and enjoy the shounen that I can still tolerate.


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## Judge Fudge (Apr 5, 2010)

Tekken said:


> I'm sorry, but was that suppose to be witty? lol. ^


The first step in refuting a point is denial, but hey it's still funny that you can't even back up your own opinion


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## Superstars (Apr 5, 2010)

Tekken said:


> And, how long have those series been finished?.



True! They have been finished for some time now.But for people who haven't seen them i thought it would be good to let them know about it.


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## Judge Fudge (Apr 5, 2010)

gumby2ms said:


> my favorite manga are all seinin. shounen are popular because they can remove elements of real life.


You're joking right? Or do you only read manga with little to no supernatural occurrences whatsoever, most Seinen titles are removed from reality as shounen


gumby2ms said:


> It would be nice if shounen main character could be background, ie, the medic, or loose battles or straight out loose friends, battles and support. They get close but often these kinds of things only happen in seinin and that is why I like them. In combat based shounin battles have to be lengthened out for no reason, i prefer quick and ruthless.


The only difference between seinen battles and shounen battles is that seinen tend to be more bloodier, nothing changes in terms of tactics or general fortitude the only thing that changes is the demographic it appeals to.


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## Will Smith (Apr 5, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> but hey it's still funny that you can't even back up your own opinion



This is funny, but alright, I'll play along since this will be worth a few laughs. Between: FMA, Soul Eater, and Dragon Quest. What other Shounen magazine can compare with their respective series?


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## yo586 (Apr 5, 2010)

There is a truth to the over recycling of common tropes, but kids of today's generation don't know that so they are successful.  Still, although one piece has elements similar to DB and is definitely directed a younger audience, I can appreciate it.  It has moments with powerful moral quality and lessons that a younger crowd can benefit from.  It deals with some very real issues (ie- death, treachery) in a very respectable way in my opinion.

Other series do not share this quality and are unimaginative clones.  Or, perhaps worse, start out very promising and devolve into horrible emo whining.  I would not want children to model any of their behavior on some of the more popular manga today.  I work with kids and when I see that many kids look up to characters like Sasuke, it makes me cringe.  The reasons behind this are fairly obvious and I've seen more than one kid rationalize their antisocial and masochistic tendencies by pointing to examples in a couple of manga.

I still believe that there is a lot of hope in the newer generation of jump manga.  It seems the editorial department has learned that originality counts in the long run and are taking more chances on concepts.  Of course it is only smart business to hold down the fort with a few tried and true formulaic series, but we don't have to read those.

Now even American series are catching on.  For example, I love how well Avatar was received, and it sent a very positive message.  So hopefully we will see more of that in the near future.


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## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> This funny, but alright, I'll play along since this will be worth a few laughs. Between *FMA, Soul Eater, and Dragon Quest*. What other Shounen magazine can compare with their respective series?


And you activated my trap card by choosing obvious titles, but I already know you're not the sharpest tack here so I'll give a it a shot.

FMA-Now that the manga is coming to a close I can safely say that the series is overrated, no about of melodrama and mature (if you call it that) themes can change the fact that the plot is incredibly mediocre like everything else about it, it gets by because of a few "powerful moments" but the exceedingly amounts are dragged out becomes melodrama and it doesn't help that Arakawa tends to use comedic timing at wrong occasions, of course given that the series has reached a level of ignorance among many groups of fandom like yourself you're automatically gonna be called out as a troll and of course there's always the "AT LEAST ITS BETTER THAN BLEACH" routine people tend to overused.

Soul Eater- 
Yeah, the point of this exercise is to choose "good" manga titles, as it stands Soul Eater is the same as Bleach in which style becomes the deciding factor over substance, the characters are one dimensional archetypes that no more parody the shounen drama but relishes in it's mediocrity, sure the art looks "kewl" and mangaka has a sick sense of humor but those elements doesn't distract it's glaring flaws

Dragon Quest-

The reason why people don't call out these series is because they don't have to deal with them on a weekly basis and dissect them


yo586 said:


> There is a truth to the over recycling of common tropes, but kids of today's generation don't know that so they are successful.  Still, although one piece has elements similar to DB and is definitely directed a younger audience, I can appreciate it.  It has moments with powerful moral quality and lessons that a younger crowd can benefit from.  It deals with some very real issues (ie- death, treachery) in a very respectable way in my opinion.


So in short when you like something you're willing to forgive it's shortcomings, hmmmmmm, you sound like every other pretentious fanboy.


yo586 said:


> Other series do not share this quality and are unimaginative clones.  Or, perhaps worse, start out very promising and devolve into horrible emo whining.  I would not want children to model any of their behavior on some of the more popular manga today.  I work with kids and when I see that many kids look up to characters like Sasuke, it makes me cringe.  The reasons behind this are fairly obvious and I've seen more than one kid rationalize their antisocial and masochistic tendencies by pointing to examples in a couple of manga.


So in short we you see kids, i.e. the target demographic, read something they enjoy for the hell of it you go into a ridiculous nerd rage that it's a title you find unfavorable, hmmmmmm, you sound like every other pretentious fanboy. 


yo586 said:


> I still believe that there is a lot of hope in the newer generation of jump manga.  It seems the editorial department has learned that *originality counts in the long run* and are taking more chances on concepts.  Of course it is only smart business to hold down the fort with a few tried and true formulaic series, but we don't have to read those.


But then you state here;


yo586 said:


> Now even American series are catching on.  For example, *I love how well Avatar was received, and it sent a very positive message*.  So hopefully we will see more of that in the near future.


----------



## yo586 (Apr 6, 2010)

Ah Chocolatebar, seems you are looking for a fight and have an axe to grind.  I can assure you I'm not a pretentious fanboy of any manga save maybe Vagabond.  And yes, I am willing to forgive shortcomings of things I like, are you not?

You are right, Avatar is not original but then again the Jump editorial dept didn't have anything to do with that.

Anyways why so angry bro?  I don't feel like raging against you.


----------



## iamthewalrus (Apr 6, 2010)

lol I love how you have yet to answer tekken's question.  All you do is post funny pictures and call it an argument.  It really would help you in the long run if you stopped insulting people while arguing,  then people would take what you have to say more seriously.  Its just a thread on a forum, theres nothing to rage about here.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> And you activated my trap card by choosing *obvious titles*.



And, it's pretty obvious I picked the magazine because of those titles. Wit is not your forte, spare yourself.



ChocolateBar999 said:


> FMA-Now that the manga is coming to a close I can safely say that the series is overrated, no about of melodrama and mature (if you call it that) themes can change the fact that the plot is incredibly mediocre like everything else about it, it gets by because of a few "powerful moments" but the exceedingly amounts are dragged out becomes melodrama and it doesn't help that Arakawa tends to use comedic timing at wrong occasions, of course given that the series has reached a level of ignorance among many groups of fandom like yourself you're automatically gonna be called out as a troll and of course there's always the "AT LEAST ITS BETTER THAN BLEACH" routine people tend to overused.




*First Bleach*​:

Bleach is incredibly dragged out, as of late. I mean we are pushing a four year saga which defining characteristics are endless amounts of battles. Any if not all the characterization that has been done as of late is in the form of flashbacks. Very lazy, since the flashbacks are basically a device used to develop characters who didn't get enough screen time. Simply because the series juggles way too much characters, and the story moves way too slowly. The audience has little to no time too form an attachment with any of the antagonist or new characters, since Kubo's slow style take priority over everything. If FMA at _very least_ wasn't better than that I wouldn't have bothered. 

*About FMA*​:

What standards are we measuring the series by? In terms of what is being produced in the demograph nowadays. There is nothing better and I certainly _never_ mentioned anything about the series being mature or whatever the fuck you just babbled about.




ChocolateBar999 said:


> Soul Eater-
> Yeah, the point of this exercise is to choose "good" manga titles, as it stands Soul Eater is the same as Bleach in which style becomes the deciding factor over substance, the characters are one dimensional archetypes that no more parody the shounen drama but relishes in it's mediocrity, sure the art looks "kewl" and mangaka has a sick sense of humor but those elements doesn't distract it's glaring flaws



No, it's not the same as Bleach.  Since, Soul Eater doesn't waste the audience time by dragging out endlessly *with no real resolution to any of the plot points for four fucking years*. I'm haven't gotten to the other big problem with Bleach: Aizen. Can you please show me any shounen Manga that has a villain as terrible as Aizen? Anyone will do.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

yo586 said:


> Ah Chocolatebar, seems you are looking for a fight and have an axe to grind.  I can assure you I'm not a pretentious fanboy of any manga save maybe Vagabond.  And yes, I am willing to forgive shortcomings of things I like, are you not?


Of course and I can list more than a few titles I've indulged in for many shallow reasons, I was merely trying to establish that it's senseless to blame to the current industry or the mangaka from problems you have with the actual story, for example many people liked Death Note and thought it was a masterpiece, I strongly disagreed and thought it was one of the worst tripe ever written and it was hard to generally feel any sort of connection with the characters or care for them in any sort of way but many people didn't see it the same way I did. Also Vagabond is awesome. 


yo586 said:


> You are right, Avatar is not original but then again the Jump editorial dept didn't have anything to do with that.


It's just ironic that you complain about originality being the beneficiary that manga titles desperately need today but praises a film for not being original of thought out in concept alone but gave it a pass because it was stunningly beautiful and while they're both completely different forms of art and media they attract a swarm of different age groups as fans


yo586 said:


> Anyways why so angry bro?  I don't feel like raging against you.


Not angry, just upset that we once again have a topic to needlessly bitch and troll our hearts out


iamthewalrus said:


> lol I love how you have yet to answer tekken's question.  All you do is post funny pictures and call it an argument.  It really would help you in the long run if you stopped insulting people while arguing,  then people would take what you have to say more seriously.  Its just a thread on a forum, theres nothing to rage about here.


So you can't read or are you just going about starting something that you obviously can't finish


----------



## KatonBLAST (Apr 6, 2010)

> I'm haven't gotten to the other big problem with Bleach: Aizen. Can you please show me any shounen Manga that has a villain as terrible as Aizen? Anyone will do.



Umm, Majin Buu. How exactly is Aizen terrible?


----------



## yo586 (Apr 6, 2010)

Ah, I meant Avatar the last airbender the Nick show (more relevant to this discussion).  And yes Vagabond rocks, glad we agree there.

And honestly, no one here is really trolling, there are some well thought out opinions and it was an interesting topic to read.  Yea it is needless but then again so is this whole discussion board so whatever.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> And, it's pretty obvious I picked the magazine because of those titles. Wit is not your forte, spare yourself.


It's the fact that you picked those titles makes it aggravatingly predictable, as oppose to just picking something not based on popular opinion, but I'm afraid your thought process doesn't run knee-deep now does it? 





Tekken said:


> stuff


Yeah, I know why Bleach sucks kid, you don't have to move away from the argument by using one of the worse titles in JUMP as a scapegoat to your own medicority


Tekken said:


> What standards are we measuring the series by? In terms of what is being produced in the demograph nowadays. There is nothing better and I certainly _never_ mentioned anything about the series being mature or whatever the fuck you just babbled about.


<"I LIKE THIS MANGA AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT WELL FUCK YOU">

Christ you sound like a fucking baby, if you can't back up your own opinion other than what groups say just admit your defeat, I already gave reasons why I believe it is so 




Tekken said:


> No, it's not the same as Bleach.  Since, Soul Eater doesn't waste the audience time by dragging out endlessly *with no real resolution to any of the plot points for four fucking years*. I'm haven't gotten to the other big problem with Bleach: Aizen. Can you please show me any shounen Manga that has a villain as terrible as Aizen? Anyone will do.


Majin Buu, Naraku, Sora, and almost every other villain in One Piece from the top of my head
I understand reading comprehension isn't your forte as you've proven in these countless of discussions, but I already gave my stance regarding why Soul Eater is very similar to Bleach and you go off in a whole nother direction missing the point


yo586 said:


> Ah, I meant Avatar the last airbender the Nick show (more relevant to this discussion).  And yes Vagabond rocks, glad we agree there.


My apologies then.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

KatonBLAST said:


> Umm, Majin Buu. How exactly is Aizen terrible?



Because he's a stu of grand proportions.


----------



## Nuzzie (Apr 6, 2010)

Fat Buu is many times better than Aizen you two are crazy


----------



## KatonBLAST (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> <"I LIKE THIS MANGA AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT WELL FUCK YOU">
> 
> Christ you sound like a fucking baby, if you can't back up your own opinion other than what groups say just admit your defeat, I already gave reasons why I believe it is so



Thumbs up. XD
Throw that troll under the bridge!


----------



## Lord Genome (Apr 6, 2010)

you know this wasnt a bad thread when it started

look what youve done


----------



## Superstars (Apr 6, 2010)

Buu is a good villain.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Buu is better than all Jump's villains. He skipped the bull and blew crap up.


He was conceived when Akira Toriyama went off the deep end and stopped giving a crap about his own creation and is the representation of everything that went wrong with DBZ after the Frieza Saga


----------



## dream (Apr 6, 2010)

I utterly loathe main characters that gain powers from an inner darkness/demon/god/magical rock inside of them.  Kenshiro Kasumi don't need an inner hippe to get an increase in strength.


----------



## Superstars (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> He was conceived when Akira Toriyama went off the deep end and stopped giving a crap about his own creation and is the representation of everything that went wrong with DBZ after the Frieza Saga



I'm sorry that Buu didn't give lame emo long winded speeches or forced emo backstories that many of you fans can connect with while curling up with a pillow or take entire stories for a cliche diabolical plan to unfold that many of you like M. Night would call twists...Nah that villain did what he was suppose to do it wasn't for the so called intellectuals he skipped the bull and sent stuff to hell for the lulz and barely even spoke.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> It's the fact that you picked those titles makes it aggravatingly predictable, as oppose to just picking something not based on popular opinion, but I'm afraid your thought process doesn't run knee-deep now does it?



How did you come to that conclusion? If you're going to accuse me of riding a bandwagon, at least come correct. FYI, I read Bleach and I even defend it from time to time along with other unpopular manga. Doesn't change it's fatal flaws. I mean, you accuse me of taking a "mature" stand point that many pseudo intellectual manga fans take, meanwhile we both read Fairy Tail. You're trying too hard.




ChocolateBar999 said:


> Yeah, I know why Bleach sucks kid, you don't have to move away from the argument by using one of the worse titles in JUMP as a scapegoat to your own medicority



Mediocore huh? 

I mean you laughed at my choices, and say that they are mediocore. Fair enough, but what are your standards for current crop of shounen based off? I mean, if you're claiming my choices are mediocore, then you must be comparing them too another standard. What exactly is that standard, choco? Based off whatever standard you're using, what would be considered a high quality shounen series out of what is currently being serialized?



ChocolateBar999 said:


> <"I LIKE THIS MANGA AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT WELL FUCK YOU">
> 
> Christ you sound like a fucking baby, if you can't back up your own opinion other than what groups say just admit your defeat, I already gave reasons why I believe it is so



lol, I mean who exactly are you quoting? 

You're reasons were paper-thin, and most of all they critique my choices off an ambiguous standard. I mean, you're really playing it safe. I show the standard I base manga off of: FMA and Soul Eater and you critique it. Yet, you fail to post your standard manga. Hmm,, I wonder why, lol.



ChocolateBar999 said:


> I understand reading comprehension isn't your forte as you've proven in these countless of discussions, but I already gave my stance regarding why Soul Eater is very similar to Bleach and you go off in a whole nother direction missing the point



It certainly isn't yours either, especially if you claim I went on another point when I elaborated on Bleach. But, just in case you didn't get it, Soul Eater or FMA don't fail as much as Bleach due to better bare bones writing. I agree, it may be mediocore, but it's consistent which is why I like it and I certainly prefer it over the aforementioned problems with Bleach.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

Superstars said:


> I'm sorry that Buu didn't give lame emo long winded speeches or forced emo backstories that many of you fans can connect with while curling up with a pillow or take entire stories for a cliche diabolical plan to unfold that many of you like M. Night would call twists...Nah that villain did what he was suppose to do it wasn't for the so called intellectuals he *skipped the bull and sent stuff to hell for the lulz and barely even spoke*.


And that makes him good why? Ora re you just gonna repeat the same bullshit over and over 
No instead he was a pink retard that manage to drag out a story far longer than he should of, whether he has an "emo" backstory isn't the case, he was shitty villain who's own conceived  structure revolved around what type of chocolate he should eat next, but of course it's easy to make an argument when you compare villains of yesteryear to today's standards while not necessarily putting character in the picture


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> And that makes him good why? Ora re you just gonna repeat the same bullshit over and over
> No instead he was a pink retard that manage to drag out a story far longer than he should of, whether he has an "emo" backstory isn't the case, he was shitty villain who's own conceived  structure revolved around what type of chocolate he should eat next, but of course it's easy to make an argument when you compare villains of yesteryear to today's standards while not necessarily putting character in the picture




So, who's a good villain choco? An example from your standard for shounens as of now would be nice.


----------



## KatonBLAST (Apr 6, 2010)

Tik-tok.

Gonna ignore me, Bomber?


----------



## Superstars (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> And that makes him good why? Ora re you just gonna repeat the same bullshit over and over
> No instead he was a pink retard that manage to drag out a story far longer than he should of, whether he has an "emo" backstory isn't the case, he was shitty villain who's own conceived  structure revolved around what type of chocolate he should eat next, but of course it's easy to make an argument when you compare villains of yesteryear to today's standards while not necessarily putting character in the picture



 I gave you the reasons why Buu was a good villain he simply destroyed stuff with raw might. Not caring about anything else but causing havoc. If I have to repeat stuff it's because you tried to ignore it. Buu was action first, emo backstories or lame planning wasn't needed. Again, you talk about character as if he didn't have one, he had a character it was based on destruction. But you say he is a bad villain cause he was structured around his taste for chocolate [which killed people]? Nah, that is wrong, he was centered around sending everything around him to hell, nothing more nothing less. That's a villain, didn't need pages of gibberish just action.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> How did you come to that conclusion? If you're going to accuse me of riding a bandwagon, at least come correct. FYI, I read Bleach and I even defend it from time to time along with other unpopular manga. Doesn't change it's fatal flaws. I mean, you accuse me of taking a "mature" stand point that many pseudo intellectual manga fans take, meanwhile we both read Fairy Tail. You're trying too hard.


Touche'
I was merely reinstating the notion that you chose these titles due to critical acclaim and or "if it's not Naruto or Bleach then it's good" sort of fashion argument, what put into it was that FMA has ascended to the realms of Monster, Slam Dunk, or classic status in which any criticism given to it is taken by a grain of salt by on goers. And I believe that I've already admitted to reading certain titles for shallow entertainment, so what exactly are you trying to prove?




Tekken said:


> Mediocore huh?
> 
> I mean you laughed at my choices, and say that they are mediocore. Fair enough, but what are your standards for current crop of shounen based off? I mean, if you're claiming my choices are mediocore, then you must be comparing them too another standard. What exactly is that standard, choco? Based off whatever standard you're using, what would be considered a high quality shounen series out of what is currently being serialized?


Most titles in Shounen Sunday are fairly high quality, among my favorites is Kekkashi to which I consider one of the best shounen titles out there, another is Zettai Karen Children from the same mangaka behind Ghost Sweeper Minami, it's quite campy despite it's serious social commentary but I still greatly enjoy reading it given Shiima's own humorously style and the fact that he generally enjoys his work and last there's the workings of Detective Conan which despite it's length I still think is a generally good read. I was merrily giving you my stance on those titles, it shouldn't effect the over quality of those manga or the people who reads them, what does it matter to you if I say it's tripe when my opinion in this situation doesn't matter at all?




Tekken said:


> lol, I mean who exactly are you quoting?


...I'll let you figure out for yourself 



Tekken said:


> You're reasons were paper-thin, and most of all they critique my choices off an ambiguous standard. I mean, you're really playing it safe. I show the standard I base manga off of: FMA and Soul Eater and you critique it. Yet, you fail to post your standard manga. Hmm,, I wonder why, lol.


You mean like your critique of Bleach? It's easy to write off something if it has to do with your favorite manga now does it? 
And yet you believe two manga titles from one publication beat out all of JUMP? That's a bit ludicrous if I do say so myself but given the animosity every here feels towards the current lineup of titles saying anything differ will put you on the receding end so you'll look better in the end, it's easy to make an argument against it starting with "FMA is shit but at least it's better than _____________."



Tekken said:


> It certainly isn't yours either, especially if you claim I went on another point when I elaborated on Bleach. But, just in case you didn't get it, Soul Eater or FMA don't fail as much as Bleach due to better bare bones writing. I agree, it may be mediocore, but it's consistent which is why I like it and I certainly prefer it over the aforementioned problems with Bleach.


You're giving an opinion, your point?


----------



## Nuzzie (Apr 6, 2010)

how is it, whenever i see tekken post, his sig is ALWAYS so applicable to the situation


----------



## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> So, who's a good villain choco? An example from your standard for shounens as of now would be nice.


I know what you're doing, but I'll humor you by not choosing a popular opinion like you have a knack for doing, in fact I'll do the opposite and choose a villain from Bleach, Nnoitra Jiruga, he's essentially one of the better written characters in Bleach but many put him off as a cheating, sexist, maniac that was killed with a two handed strike. Part of what makes him great is his own ruthlessness and lack of moral (like any other villain) and the fact that he doesn't grovel to his superior like the majority of the Espada did on occassion, part of what made him so great was his backstory with Nel, the very fact that she was his superior drove him to the point of obsession even after the fact that he underhandedly got his way in the end, was it love? was it the fact that she was a woman? no it was the fact that she took pity oh him, something he hated more than anything else which worked well with his theme.


----------



## Fran (Apr 6, 2010)

Nuzzie said:


> how is it, whenever i see tekken post, his sig is ALWAYS so applicable to the situation



 

These threads are the gems of KL2.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> Touche'
> I was merely reinstating the notion that you chose these titles due to critical acclaim and or "if it's not Naruto or Bleach then it's good" sort of fashion argument, what put into it was that FMA has ascended to the realms of Monster, Slam Dunk, or classic status in which any criticism given to it is taken by a grain of salt by on goers. And I believe that I've already admitted to reading certain titles for shallow entertainment, so what exactly are you trying to prove?



I don't understand how you could have arrived at that conclusion in first place. I never made any mention of classics anywhere here, we were clearly talking about _current_ shounen.

You never mentioned what series in specific, though. I mean I gave you explicit examples and explained in depth _why_ I support my standards just like you asked. I expect the same, that's all.




ChocolateBar999 said:


> Most titles in Shounen Sunday are fairly high quality, among my favorites is Kekkashi to which I consider one of the best shounen titles out there, another is Zettai Karen Children from the same mangaka behind Ghost Sweeper Minami, it's quite campy despite it's serious social commentary but I still greatly enjoy reading it given Shiima's own humorously style and the fact that he generally enjoys his work and last there's the workings of Detective Conan which despite it's length I still think is a generally good read.
> 
> 
> I was merrily giving you my stance on those titles, it shouldn't effect the over quality of those manga or the people who reads them, what does it matter to you if I say it's tripe when my opinion in this situation doesn't matter at all?



Shounen sunday, you mean the people who produce Kenichi? lol, okay, my turn to laugh. I haven't read Case closed in a long time, but that's like Kochikame in terms of shounen.

Not familiar with those series too much, I've read Kekkashi and I thought the art was horrible. But, the series might be good. So, who knows. I'm open to read any manga and I don't play favorites.

Your opinion obviously matters enough for me to write a wall o' text response. So, how did you arrive at that conclusion? I've repeatedly asked for your standard, now why would I do that if it did not matter? again, you try too hard.



ChocolateBar999 said:


> You mean like your critique of Bleach? It's easy to write off something if it has to do with your favorite manga now does it?



And, what exactly would my favorite manga be? You're jumping the gun as always. You mention Bleach, so I jump off that point. We are obviously doing comparisons, based off our standards. If you want me to make another comparison, simply mention another manga. I mean how hard is that? 




ChocolateBar999 said:


> And yet you believe two manga titles from one publication beat out all of JUMP? That's a bit ludicrous if I do say so myself but given the animosity every here feels towards the current lineup of titles saying anything differ will put you on the receding end so you'll look better in the end, it's easy to make an argument against it starting with "FMA is shit but at least it's better than



Yeah, I do, because jump imo sucks nowadays. W/ the exception of say HXH, they essentially offer nothing imo worth looking at, except a mindless collection of third rate series at best. I don't mind poor quality manga, but an over saturation said manga with an absence of first class  shounens to boot is a bad thing. 




ChocolateBar999 said:


> You're giving an opinion, your point?



That's what this thread is about and I just stated my point, please try to follow.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> I know what you're doing, but I'll humor you by not choosing a popular opinion like you have a knack for doing, in fact I'll do the opposite and choose a villain from Bleach, Nnoitra Jiruga, he's essentially one of the better written characters in Bleach but many put him off as a cheating, sexist, maniac that was killed with a two handed strike. Part of what makes him great is his own ruthlessness and lack of moral (like any other villain) and the fact that he doesn't grovel to his superior like the majority of the Espada did on occassion, part of what made him so great was his backstory with Nel, the very fact that she was his superior drove him to the point of obsession even after the fact that he underhandedly got his way in the end, was it love? was it the fact that she was a woman? no it was the fact that she took pity oh him, something he hated more than anything else which worked well with his theme.



What exactly am I doing? Because I think Aizen is a shit villain? It's not like I used him as a critique of villains in Bleach, he just sucks period. Again, with the wild conjecture.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> I don't understand how you could have arrived at that conclusion in first place. I never made any mention of classics anywhere here, we were clearly talking about current shounen.


It was through my assumption that you picked those titles, I don't consider Soul Eater to be better than anything in JUMP, FMA yes or at least compared to JUMP's top selling titles but I won't deny my stance on it. 






Tekken said:


> Shounen sunday, you mean the people who produce Kenichi? lol, okay, my turn to laugh.


Better than Gangan's current catalog of manga series that aren't FMA, but seriously Kenichi sucks in comparison to the series that run in Sunday, you shouldn't judge a publications' stature let alone one that's not it's top selling series.



Tekken said:


> Your opinion obviously matters enough for me to write a wall o' text response. So, how did you arrive at that conclusion? I've repeatedly asked for your standard, now why would i do that if it did not matter? again, you try too hard.


My question to you is why do you care? It's not a matter of I'm right or you are wrong wordplay, it's a matter of two different opinions being brought up in an endless cycle going nowhere until we both just agree to disagree.







Tekken said:


> And, what exactly would my favorite manga be? You're jumping the gun as always. You mention Bleach, so I jump off that point. We are obviously doing comparisons, based off our standards. If you want me to make another comparison, simply mention another manga. I mean how hard is that?


It was an rhetorical response, to which a manga you like gets painted in a negative light you go off the deep end never they I insinuate it was Bleach but rather you had the knack to rip apart Bleach but write off my complaints about FMA and Soul Eater as shallow in comparison to yours on Bleach.  




Tekken said:


> Yeah, I do, because jump imo sucks nowadays. W/ the exception of say HXH, they essentially offer nothing imo worth looking at, except a mindless collection of third rate series at best. *I don't mind poor quality manga, but an over saturation of it is a problem.*


Like Gangan and every other manga publication magazine? 


Tekken said:


> What exactly am I doing? Because I think Aizen is a shit villain? It's not like I used him as a critique of villains in Bleach, he just sucks period. Again, with the wild conjecture.


So you can judge my critique of what a good villain is as oppose to choosing obvious candidates like Dio, Shishio Makoto, or Zabuza.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> It was through my assumption that you picked those titles, I don't consider Soul Eater to be better than anything in JUMP, FMA yes or at least compared to JUMP's top selling titles but I won't deny my stance on it.



Jumps top selling titles, I mean if you are talking about the Big three than I strongly disagree. Unless, you are talking about Gintama, Kochikame or HXH, jump has nothing to compare as of late. That could always change over time, but jump is the weakest shounen magazine as of now. It's that simple.



ChocolateBar999 said:


> Better than Gangan's current catalog of manga series that aren't FMA, but seriously Kenichi sucks in comparison to the series that run in Sunday, you shouldn't judge a publications' stature let alone one that's not it's top selling series.



I'm pretty sure Kenichi is a top series in sunday. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I still rank Gangan higher because they have a higher entertainment value even if the series are not top notch all the time. Their manga generally has great art and their series are passable enough to edge out other series of that calibur. 




ChocolateBar999 said:


> My question to you is why do you care? It's not a matter of I'm right or you are wrong wordplay, it's a matter of two different opinions being brought up in an endless cycle going nowhere until we both just agree to disagree.



Matter of opinion, huh. i mean weren't you the one that called me out in the first place? I said this would be funny, obviously it's because I knew how this would play out. Also, I never stated anything negative about you're opinion. You on the other hand called my taste mediocore, and tried to make it seem that I support a populist P.O.V. despite the fact that we both read shit like Fairy Tail? You can't play the: "It's only my opinion card" _and _ argue so personally. It's a contradiction.




ChocolateBar999 said:


> It was an rhetorical response, to which a manga you like gets painted in a negative light you go off the deep end never they I insinuate it was Bleach but rather you had the knack to rip apart Bleach but write off my complaints about FMA and Soul Eater as shallow in comparison to yours on Bleach.



Yeah, maybe it's because I read more Bleach than the other series?  

Assuming you meant "Manga I like gets painted in a positive light" I actually like Bleach, I'm just aware of it's flaws and I have qualms of critiquing them when they rear their ugly head. Just like I have no qualms pointing out FMA superiority in bare bone writing. 




ChocolateBar999 said:


> Like Gangan and every other manga publication magazine?



Sure.




ChocolateBar999 said:


> So you can judge my critique of what a good villain is as oppose to choosing obvious candidates like Dio, Shishio Makoto, or Zabuza.



Dude, I just agreed with you. Nnoitra is a great villian, Aizen is not. that was my point, c'mon.


----------



## SAFFF (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> He was conceived when Akira Toriyama went off the deep end and stopped giving a crap about his own creation and is the representation of everything that went wrong with DBZ after the Frieza Saga



i don't see what was wrong with the android/cell sagas. It was more entertaining than freiza saga in my eyes and there was a better cast in that saga than freizas. cell was also a better saga villan. Starting off as a mid-tier grasshopper running from the Z senshi to absorbing the androids and becoming the strongest in the universe. 

We never had such awesome results from freiza who was just a big bad alien who ruled the solar systems and had an army of goons who dressed like pro wrestlers and acted homoerotic. Whereas you have badasses like 15,17 and 18 in android sagas, vegeta is cooler, trunks is just pure badassness and goku doesn't save the day like always. What more could you want? Shit even Piccolo shines more than he did during his 5 second developement in freiza saga and Tien actually gets to fight in android/cell sagas.


But yeah Buu saga was the worst. Lasted too long, the good guys looked like shit over and over and the entire Z Senshi consisted of sayians. blah.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

^Complete agreement, Cell saga was my favorite as well


----------



## cha-uzu (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> The irony in this is that almost every shounen has done this is some shape or form, fans shouldn't drive the story but they have in alot of occasions, it doesn't distract any significance in the story unless you don't like the character
> 
> May I remind you you're reading a manga which target demographic are young boys?


Ummm then why are they so curvacious in the first place? LOL Take Miu for example.... 

Like please.


----------



## Judge Fudge (Apr 6, 2010)

cha-uzu said:


> Ummm then why are they so curvacious in the first place? LOL Take Miu for example....
> 
> Like please.


Uh, twelve year old boys like to ogle at attractive looking characters, granted Kenichi is the worse offender of this since the majority of the female cast has breast bugger than their heads


----------



## cha-uzu (Apr 6, 2010)

ChocolateBar999 said:


> Uh, twelve year old boys like to ogle at attractive looking characters, granted Kenichi is the worse offender of this since the majority of the female cast has breast bugger than their heads


LOL this is true.


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Apr 6, 2010)

it is no good to generalize.. some shonen are very good and slightly innovative.


----------



## firefist (Apr 6, 2010)

I don't like the overused arc-types à la rescue-arcs or training-arcs. Either way they fight to protect or to save someone.
I don't like that most character types are basically the same. It's either a psycho-madman, naive protagonist, always the ideal type of person and you can put them into fitting categories.
Popularity over story.
Too many battle-focused shonen types. Death Note was really refreshing (even though part 2 lacked some quality).
Gintama and Death Note are some good examples of nice modern-day Shonen.


----------



## Champagne Supernova (Apr 6, 2010)

Too much yaoi and too many bishies.

Hitman Rebore is an example.


----------



## Yamata no Orochi (Apr 6, 2010)

Supreme Alchemist Fan said:


> i don't see what was wrong with the android/cell sagas. It was more entertaining than freiza saga in my eyes and there was a better cast in that saga than freizas. cell was also a better saga villan. Starting off as a mid-tier grasshopper running from the Z senshi to absorbing the androids and becoming the strongest in the universe.
> 
> We never had such awesome results from freiza who was just a big bad alien who ruled the solar systems and had an army of goons who dressed like pro wrestlers and acted homoerotic. Whereas you have badasses like 15,17 and 18 in android sagas, vegeta is cooler, trunks is just pure badassness and goku doesn't save the day like always. What more could you want? Shit even Piccolo shines more than he did during his 5 second developement in freiza saga and Tien actually gets to fight in android/cell sagas.
> 
> ...


Frieza was the ultimate villain, cruel and ruthless, and he actually wanted to use the Dragon Balls to wish for invincibility despite being the most powerful being of his time in the universe while being the leader of a vast empire. He was racist and xenophobic toward the saiyan race (whom the main character is of) because of a legend of a certain level a saiyan can achieve every thousand years which was said to be powerful enough to eclipse even Frieza in power. In response to this Frieza commited an act of mass genocide by destroying the planet Vegeta along with most of the Saiyan race. All these facts alone put Frieza in another league compared to other DB villains...

Cell was like what, a green, taller vegeta who ripped off other people's moves including Frieza himself?

seriously though, the Cell saga was never intended to happen and should not have happened, plot wise everything after Frieza was totally unnecessary and cheap


----------



## Papaya (Apr 6, 2010)

The very fact that it's classed as shounen's the problem. With the main audience being kids it's obviously really hard to bring out new series involving decent plots without resorting to battle/ecchi/comical scenes. So obviously to keep up in the ranking authors play it safe and re-use failsafe plots, this isn't necessarily a terrible thing, there's often enough creative differences between series to keep them fresh. And, really, what doesn't jump onto the friendship, love and peace themes.


----------



## DarkLordOfKichiku (Apr 6, 2010)

> Well, i think its more or less that when I was in school i would have killed to have so many options! LOL they always seem horrorfied when a gal is dressed a lil risque.
> 
> I guess according to shonun law...
> Training >>>>> Boobs
> ...



Heh, That may be so 

Though as has been mentioned, this is a comic for young boys/teenagers, so potentially, that could work both ways: Either they're at the age where, figuratively speaking, playing indian and cowboy would be much more interesting than chasing girls, OR they would be at the age where they've just discovered that girls exist and can't take their eyes off a set of boobs  . Hence, authors may decide on one approach or another - more action-oriented shounen would be more focused on the first and therefore gets little or no romantic stuff and vice-versa - althorugh on the oppsite end, things end up being more ecchi than anything else, alas...



Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> But stupid is easier to write. A stupid main character means that the world can be explained to that character and through that also to the reader.
> 
> In a series where the main character knows everything beforehand then someone else will have to pick up the role of the "stupid". Compare Toriko and Naruto.
> 
> I do agree, however. Just wanted to point out why it's done..



I guess you're right that it's better to explain the world through such a character. And yet, I sometimes can't help but think that they go too far - "stupid" is simple froma story-telling perspective, I guess, but that doesn't mean that I want all main characters to be overly smart and complicated people like Lelouch, Light or Sasuke. I mean, it shouldn't be too hard to writte normal people as main characters, now, would it? People who are not overly stupid or simple/single-minded like so many shounen characters, but not "geniuses" like those mentioned before either. People who aren't overly idealistic when it comes to finding solutions to things (No "solving everything by fanfiction", as the outcome of Pain/Naruto's fight was called), people who actually purse the girls they're intereste in instead of being overly interested in putting all their time to getting stronger and gaining new power-ups, as cha-uzu said. More normal people, in short!

On comparing Naruto and Toriko, well.. I see Toriko as being more simple/single-minded if anything (his whole existence revolves around food and getting to eat it after all  ), whereas Naruto is often more stupid, but I see your point: Both are the kind of simple-minded character that is easy to writte.



Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> I think it has to do with several things
> A: Pressure from editors to improve the potential for merchandise
> B: The authors are pressured to work on a VERY tight schedule. Gets tired of pace.
> C: They work for long duration on the same thing and will naturally get a bit tired of it..



Well, the very tight schedule I can easily enough forgive, the third point is a natural development that is perhaps to be expected, but the first point i find a bit hard to forgive, considering that I think that clouds the author's orignal vision  . Kishi has implied before that none reason Sasuke gets such a big role is because he's so popular, I think. Then I can only wonder what things'd have been like had he not been so popular  .



Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> I think it has less to do with interest and more to do with the previous point. If they lose interest in the manga as a whole then if they keep on working on it the least they will have to do is write about the main character... Hence everyone else gets neglected...



And thus fans of these characters ends up disappointed. Sad thing. Althrough if so they authors still don't seem quite bored of them enough to increase their mortality rate 



Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> Yeah... Those get so boring after a while. Let's not forget tournament arcs.



Those too, though I find them somewhat more amusing and intersting than rescue-arcs and training-arcs.



seaofjealousy said:


> that's the way the manga system works, the majority of the time it plays harder on shounen, where popularity, deadlines, and most freaking annoyingly, questionnaires and popularity polls(damn you Ozamu Tezuka!) breaks most artists, the ones who actually pass this like Kishimoto and Kubo can afford to relax since they are constantly meeting expectations in those things, and don't really focus intensely on the art or the  writing in general.



Woe. Pity that it works in such a way, making it difficult for the mangakas/authors to follow their visions, isntead having to pay attention to what the "fans" and not they themselves thinks (not that paying attention to what the fans say is wrong, but to that extent...?)!



ChocolateBar999 said:


> A thread about people looking into the over saturation of comic books made for young boys
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...



Heh. Well good point reminding us that this is for young boys/teenagers, primarily. An age where "plot" has yet to mean a lot and one is usually eager for a lot of action if anything.


----------



## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

All seinen are better than shounen. They were aimed at a mature auidence, so they must be better.

100% prooved. Gantz shits on Fullmetal Alchemist, Houshin Engi and Majin Tantei Nogami Neuro.


----------



## Wuzzman (Apr 6, 2010)

gantz is a shounen.


----------



## MdB (Apr 6, 2010)

No, it's not. 

It's shit, but still seinen.


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Apr 6, 2010)

Wuzzman said:


> gantz is a shounen.



if gantz is a shounen FMA is a kindergarten reading


----------



## Gallant (Apr 6, 2010)

Nice to see I am not alone in some of my sentiments. I find that Weekly Shounen Jump, while being the leading shounen magazine currently is at fault for perpetuating some of the worser problems of modern day shounen.

Not to say that other magazines don't have their share of series that don't help to get away from those matters. Fairy Tail and Negima come to mind from Weekly Shounen Magazine.

Shounen Sunday is almost as bad as Jump in terms of extending series that really do not be as long as they are. Which I think popularity plays a role in. Inuyasha and Detective Conan are examples. Although I here that Aoyama just really enjoys all of the filler cases he writes so that



Champagne Supernova said:


> Too much yaoi and too many bishies.
> 
> Hitman Rebore is an example.



That is probably the result of a women writing shounen. You can see this in the likes of D.Gray-man too.

Which is kind of funny since I think women so far have written better shounen romances in some recent cases. 



Han Solo said:


> All seinen are better than shounen. They were aimed at a mature auidence, so they must be better.
> 
> 100% prooved. Gantz shits on Fullmetal Alchemist, Houshin Engi and Majin Tantei Nogami Neuro.



Do not forget about Tenjou Tenge being much better than those 3 quality shounen just because its seinen. Top-tier manga right there.



Bluebeard said:


> Let's talk about another problem with Shonen currently.
> 
> The lack of creative powers or techniques in _combat-based_ Shounen.



What? You mean you no longer like beam spam and inner lifelines that save the protagonist's behind when he is fighting against someone he has no business fighting atm because of the massive power gap?

To be fair, there are some really interesting ways to apply the generic energy systems in shounen. Although I consider Togashi a lazy bastard, I have always commended him on how he has worked with the nen system. 

Shimabukuro who does Toriko impressed me as well. Sani/Sunny's and Coco's mash up of abilities have been thorougly entertaining. It really makes me want to see the last of the 4 heavenly kings. 

I think it isn't always so much the originality of the power but the execution for it too. You can take a standard power like shadows for instance and get people like Moria and Shikamaru to an extent that makes seeing them use the power fun.

While you can also take a standard power like fire and make it boring for them to be used by people like Natsu or Sasuke.


----------



## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

Gallant said:


> Do not forget about Tenjou Tenge being much better than those 3 quality shounen just because its seinen. Top-tier manga right there.



How did I foget the master that is Oh! Great?


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Another problem is terrible protagonist. Is there a shounen out right now, where the protagonist isn't an immature ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)?


----------



## Pompous (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> Another problem is terrible protagonist. Is there a shounen out right now, where the protagonist isn't an immature ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)?



Gintama

Actually Gintoki is immature in many ways but only because he chooses to be


----------



## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> Another problem is terrible protagonist. Is there a shounen out right now, where the protagonist isn't an immature ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)?



Toriko.**


----------



## Lord Genome (Apr 6, 2010)

Yeah

Kongou Banchou
Nurarihyon no Mago
Beezlebub
Toriko
One Piece
Kekkaishi

those are just the ones on top of my head


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> Yeah
> 
> Kongou Banchou
> Nurarihyon no Mago
> ...



lol, okay.


----------



## Fran (Apr 6, 2010)

Toriko was a really refreshing read. Initially. Haven't read the latest arcs.

I think it's because he reminds me of Kenshiro and such. Mangas need more Kenshiro's.


----------



## Lord Genome (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> lol, okay.


their immature but its not annoyingly


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Never gonna see the appeal of Luffy, he's everything that's wrong with shounen protagonist.


----------



## Gallant (Apr 6, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> Yeah
> 
> Kongou Banchou
> Nurarihyon no Mago
> ...



I'll add Psyren, Gamaran, Claymore and Yankee-kun to Megane-chan to this.


----------



## MdB (Apr 6, 2010)

Nurarihyon no Mago feels very bland to me. It does everything by the book way too straight.


----------



## Lord Genome (Apr 6, 2010)

Claymore has the problem of being incredibley boring

Psyren to to a lesser degree for me anyway



Tekken said:


> Never gonna see the appeal of Luffy, he's everything that's wrong with shounen protagonist.


I like him, hes fun to read about, likable and doesnt hyperventilate


----------



## Lord Genome (Apr 6, 2010)

MdB said:


> Nurarihyon no Mago feels very bland to me. It does everything by the book way too straight.


how far did you go? it changed up about maybe 15-20 chapters in for the better

also the art is awesome


----------



## Pompous (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> Never gonna see the appeal of Luffy, he's everything that's wrong with shounen protagonist.



I like him because he does whatever the fuck he wants and that usually means helping random people and overthrowing corrupt governments consequences be damned.


----------



## Wuzzman (Apr 6, 2010)

Bubi said:


> if gantz is a shounen FMA is a kindergarten reading



than i am corrected. gantz is seinen for 13 year olds.


----------



## Lord Genome (Apr 6, 2010)

Gantz is seinen for people who like bad manga


----------



## MdB (Apr 6, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> how far did you go? it changed up about maybe 15-20 chapters in for the better
> 
> also the art is awesome



I'm up-to-date with it. Everything feels bland and boring, like you've seen it too many times already. And I find the art partially awesome, mainly (or rather only) the Youkai designs. The rest looks dull due to the generic style.


----------



## Superstars (Apr 6, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> Claymore has the problem of being incredibley boring
> 
> Psyren to to a lesser degree for me anyway
> 
> ...



Just yells all the time, has mental breakdowns and crying emo sessions.



> I like him because *he does whatever the fuck he wants* and that usually means helping random people and overthrowing corrupt governments consequences be damned.


That's the problem right there because the so called opposition in one piece is very incompetent and results in bad writing. Again this is to be expected in shounen.

I really think it's the modern day fandom with the problem, too many fake intellectuals looking for something that they can't get in these shounens. Extraordinary intrigues and mind blowing twists with original battle techniques ect. You aren't gonna get in current jump especially with the target audience it's aimed at and where the writers influences come from [Classic Golden age jump authors]. The fighting is usually what it's about and the same themes will be recycled. It's expected, that's why I just try to enjoy the characters and the action and don't take plots or anything to do with their story seriously. I want some story and dialogue I go watch Godfather.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

How did I know superstar would post? lol sup man.


----------



## Pompous (Apr 6, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Just yells all the time, has mental breakdowns and crying emo sessions.
> 
> 
> That's the problem right there because the so called opposition in one piece is very incompetent and results in bad writing. Again this is to be expected in shounen.
> ...



Why do all your posts boil down to " I hate One Piece" ?


----------



## Mongolian Chop Squad (Apr 6, 2010)

Too many insane powerups and too predictable. The only shounen that always keeps me guessing is HunterXHunter.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Yondaime X3 said:


> Too many insane powerups and too predictable. The only shounen that always keeps me guessing is HunterXHunter.



By guessing, you mean guessing when it's coming out of hiatus.


----------



## c3zz4rr (Apr 6, 2010)

well I know that naruto hyperventilates, but luffy goes into a fucking coma lulz

*activates flame shield*


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

He _fainted_, but to be honest that shit was funny.


----------



## daouchiha (Apr 6, 2010)

They're all rip-offs of Dragonball. 

granted, it's shonen and focused on...boy things...(whatever they are, stupid gender stereotypes) But that's no excuse for poor writing. They need to focus evenly on character development and plot, and of course the action. Most shonen is incredibly predictable.


----------



## c3zz4rr (Apr 6, 2010)

I know I was just joking, cuz too many people seem to forget that oda also made luffy faint/go into a coma whatever.

Anyways imo too many shounens are trying to copy dragonball, so it creates many cliches and overused character's personalities and plots arc or stories, at least that's my beef with shounen manga today, not that I've read many shounen before dragonball except for a few that I've found translated in english.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

c3zz4rr said:


> -snip-



Oda's short comings are always forgotten, wait what short comings?


----------



## c3zz4rr (Apr 6, 2010)

you silly boy there's no such thing as oda, there's only Goda


----------



## Stevenh1990 (Apr 6, 2010)

We need more shonen like Toriko .


----------



## jazz189 (Apr 6, 2010)

c3zz4rr said:


> well I know that naruto hyperventilates, but luffy goes into a fucking coma lulz
> 
> *activates flame shield*



Well the situations were different Naruto hyperventilated after being told that his boyfriend is a dick, Luffy didn't faint his body collapsed after being pumped with so much adrenaline and being poisoned within a inch of his life all to save his brother (who isn't a dick) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



and actually succeed only for Ace to ironically die taking a hit that was meant for Luffy.


  The two situations were worlds apart.

That being said what is wrong with Shonen modern day shonen is that many of them don't try to be original, their stories are either ripped off from Dragon Ball Z, Saint Seiya or Yu Yu Hakusho. There is also the fact that some shonen take themselves way too seriously, and in a way that makes me unable to be completely immersed in the world.

There is also the problem with characterization, far too much shonen characters are way too generic. They never give their characters any defining feature or characteristic, therefore making you unable to give a damn about them. You can't get attached to a piece of cardboard. 

And while I'm on the subject of characterization, I want to say I am okay with having an idiot as the main character. It actually works well in story telling as we get to experience that world at the same time that they do, but there is a limit to how stupid they should be. Its one thing to be stupid and its another to be mentally impaired. You see cause even a idiot can be observant when it comes to dealing with people, and I don't just mean in battle. A mentally impaired character though lacks any redeeming skills, and is just a an idiot whose only talent is figuring out ways to assault others.

If a mangaka for instance you wants their idiot character to be a leader? Well then maybe they should give them some leadership skills, and people skills.

Oh yeah and just because a character is popular with the fandom doesn't mean they should take over as the main character, doing so will put out front and any annoying character which the audience didn't notice because they weren't around much. Less=more.

Then there are the fights. Seriously how much ass pulls have I witnessed in many shonen series lately? Here's an idea shonen mangaka if you're going to introduced a new move or skill then a little bit of foreshadowing goes a long way.

While we're on the subject on ass pulls there are things that should be explained with words, and there are things that should be explained by saying that example. Just saying a character is strong or that two characters are the bestest of friends does not make it so. If an mangaka wants say this character is strong, or that those two guys are best friends, I don't want your words I want solid concrete evidence of this fact, displayed from the of the character's actions and behavior.

Also way too much shonen lately have continuity problems. Its like the mangaka didn't care enough to look back at their own work to check the rules that they established for their world. A little bit of continuity isn't too much to ask for isn't it?

Last but not least is the lack of enthuiasm/ lack of care/ laziness I see many current manga. A mangaka's apathy towards their own work, is never a good thing in fact it is my belief that any manga who has an creator who is apathetic towards it should be cancelled.


----------



## The Doctor (Apr 6, 2010)

jazz189 said:


> That being said what is wrong with Shonen modern day shonen is that many of them don't try to be original, their stories are either ripped off from Dragon Ball Z, Saint Seiya or *Yu Yu Hakusho*.



no                                            .


----------



## jazz189 (Apr 6, 2010)

The Doctor said:


> no                                            .



Bleach.
/10 chara


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Jump get tons of submissions, they only pick series that appeal to the crowd. If anything shounen fans are too blame.


----------



## Gallant (Apr 6, 2010)

jazz189 said:


> Bleach.
> /10 chara



Have to agree here partly because the last Ulquiorra fight was pretty much stealing the template of the Sensui fight.

The Dragonball and Saint Seiya influences are not hard to find either.


----------



## Spirit King (Apr 6, 2010)

c3zz4rr said:


> well I know that naruto hyperventilates, but luffy goes into a fucking coma lulz
> 
> *activates flame shield*


 TBH the shit Luffy went was far FAR worse than Naruto's. I'm not bashing Naruto it's just anyone thats unbiased would realise this. 

He ditched his closest friends invaded the worlds most impregnable prison got his arse kicked and lost 10 years of his life to survive, released a former enemy that almost killed him 3 times while trying to destroy a contry, set free murders and rapists endangering the world just so he could survive and save his brother, got drugged up with hormones knowing that when he does eventually crash he will be screwed up for a very long time. 

Accepted a selfless friends sacrifice to travel to marineford essentially condemening him to death. Fought though an entire battle where he go his ass kicked so badly that he needed to get drugged up again which would lead to an even greater crash. Finally realisng the person he's sacrificed his friends and his life for only to see to die in his arms after sacrificing his life to him. 

I would probably just cry after going through all that shit sacrificing that much just to fail not to mention that his brother probably the closest person to him in the world just died.

That shit's is not even comparable to finding out your other friends want to kill your treacherous revenge obsessed friend who always treated you like shit.


----------



## Wuzzman (Apr 6, 2010)

Spirit King said:


> TBH the shit Luffy went was far FAR worse than Naruto's. I'm not bashing Naruto it's just anyone thats unbiased would realise this.
> 
> He ditched his closest friends invaded the worlds most impregnable prison got his arse kicked and lost 10 years of his life to survive, released a former enemy that almost killed him 3 times while trying to destroy a contry, set free murders and rapists endangering the world just so he could survive and save his brother, got drugged up with hormones knowing that when he does eventually crash he will be screwed up for a very long time.
> 
> ...



luffy gets some bandages and wakes up a day later. Actions with no consequences. That is why one piece is a joke amongst jokes.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Spirit King said:


> -snip-



Congrats, you just described what pretty much any shounen hero would do. Only difference is that they wouldn't faint, It's excusable though.



Wuzzman said:


> luffy gets some bandages and wakes up a day later. Actions with no consequences. That is why one piece is a joke amongst jokes.



Yeah, it truly is.


----------



## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

lol Wuzzman.


----------



## Bluebeard (Apr 6, 2010)

lol Wuzzman

Uh no. The trauma from this battle has been building up and the next chapter is even out yet so we have no idea how Luffy will be after this. 

BTW, I would prefer that we don't turn this into a big Naruto/Bleach/One Piece flame and worship fest. If we could stop right here and swallow our egos, we could continue on the reason why this thread was made.

thank you


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Bluebeard said:


> Uh no. The trauma from this battle has been building up and the next chapter is even out yet so we have no idea how Luffy will be after this.



Probably the same it's been for the last 570 plus chapters. After all, when you have *zero* character development for 500 chapters, what can you expect later.


----------



## Yorkman (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> Probably the same it's been for the last 570 plus chapters. After all, when you have *zero* character development for 500 chapters, what can you expect later.



Obviously you're retarted


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Yorkman said:


> Obviously you're retarted



Tee Hee


----------



## Bluebeard (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> Probably the same it's been for the last 570 plus chapters. After all, when you have *zero* character development for 500 chapters, what can you expect later.



When Oda does character development for his characters, it is usually minor and subtle, not big enough to suddenly change the character but slowly over time. All these events have been building up on to the current event and as Oda states "This is Luffy's last adventure as a nineteen year old" which we can assume means some pretty big stuff in store for him.

Now, can we please change the subject? If you want Tekken, you could PM me if you wish to continue, but I'd prefer that this topic stay on it's original goal instead of steering left.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

So subtle that you can't even see it for 500 chapters, okay. This topic already ended with my post.


----------



## Bluebeard (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> So subtle that you can't even see it for 500 chapters, okay. This topic already ended with my post.



The topic already ended *for you*. 

If you're done trying to insult One Piece in a thread not evening about it, then please GTFO.


----------



## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

This thread is about what's wrong with shounen series, it involved earlier people critiquing  shounen series. Yet, lo and behold when OP is mentioned its suddenly considered off-topic? OP isn't a current shounen now or is it too much "win" too critique?

No, it ended with this post:



Tekken said:


> Jump get tons of submissions, they only pick series that appeal to the crowd. If anything shounen fans are too blame.



No _wall o' text _necessary, thank you very much.


----------



## Tenacious Lee (Apr 6, 2010)

Biggest problems with modern shonen?

Crappy generic manga like KHR, Bleach, and Naruto are popular.

The good manga, like Psyren and Toriko, are largely ignored


----------



## Blinky (Apr 6, 2010)

Bluebeard said:


> The topic already ended *for you*.
> 
> If you're done trying to insult One Piece in a thread not evening about it, then please GTFO.



This thread is about the problem with shonen today . One Piece is one of the most popular Shonen right now .


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## MakeEmum (Apr 6, 2010)

BlinkyEC said:


> This thread is about the problem with shonen today . One Piece is one of the most popular Shonen right now .



but One Piece has *zero* problems thus irrelevant


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## Oxymoron (Apr 6, 2010)

People expect too much from of a series that are written for a younger audience because sometimes you will get flashes of excellent character development and in some cases very fluid and quality (when I say quality I mean when compared to what it usually is, ie shit) writing.

They are fun to read, as is discussing them because often you will encounter interesting character interaction and of course they are going for years which also makes them easy to have debates over.

And so you get discussions like these like what is a problem with them while its rather easy to see that the genre (demographic, ye whatever) was always the same and never changed. Dragonball was a mediocre manga, so is One Piece, so is Naruto. And actually the quality bar raised over time.


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## Blinky (Apr 6, 2010)

MakeEmum said:


> but One Piece has *zero* problems thus irrelevant



Everything has faults . Nothings perfect .


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## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

MakeEmum said:


> but One Piece has *zero* problems thus irrelevant



The sad thing is I can't tell if responses like this are serious or not.


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## Wuzzman (Apr 6, 2010)

Well it turns into discussions because some people have a higher definition of turd than the others. Loathing naruto, bleach and khr doesn't make you intellectual. But seems to be the prerequisite these days to enjoy the "thought provoking" series like one piece, veritas and that shounen by everything but name gantz. hell there was a time when khr was apart of the cool club, never read that shit so don't know when it started to suck for most people. 

I would love to contribute properly to this thread but my list of things that piss me off about shounen would take too long.


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## Bluebeard (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> This thread is about what's wrong with shounen series, it involved earlier people critiquing  shounen series. Yet, lo and behold when OP is mentioned its suddenly considered off-topic? OP isn't a current shounen now or is it too much "win" too critique?
> 
> No, it ended with this post:
> 
> ...





BlinkyEC said:


> This thread is about the problem with shonen today . One Piece is one of the most popular Shonen right now .



I said with I said simply because I don't want this to degrade into another "One Piece sux and Naruto is better!" or "Bow before Goda" threads. I saw that it could possibly become that and decided to intervene.


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## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

The things is I never mentioned Naruto being better than OP or vice versa.


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## Wuzzman (Apr 6, 2010)

Bluebeard said:


> I said with I said simply because I don't want this to degrade into another "One Piece sux and Naruto is better!" or "Bow before Goda" threads. I saw that it could possibly become that and decided to intervene.



never. if people start talking about medicore manga, someone will eventually have the good senses to through one piece name in the hat. the oda fans go berserk and now we have yet another oda is 3/4'th god thread.


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## MakeEmum (Apr 6, 2010)

Tekken said:


> The sad thing is I can't tell if responses like this are serious or not.



Subtle sarcasm ftw


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## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

Ahaha, I just got reminded that Phoenix and Black Jack are technically shounen.

And there is not a seinen better than Phoenix. Suck on that, you weabo's who blather on about how a seinen must be inherently better than a shounen.


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## Blinky (Apr 6, 2010)

MakeEmum said:


> Subtle sarcasm ftw



Oh I didn't know you were being sarcastic  

Fucking internet . I can't even tell if people are joking anymore .


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## MakeEmum (Apr 6, 2010)

BlinkyEC said:


> Oh I didn't know you were being sarcastic
> 
> Fucking internet . I can't even tell if people are joking anymore .



don't feel bad my comment was meant for people to take it seriously 

I'm just glad you wasn't 

"LOLROFLCOPTER!! WHAT? HOW ABOUT..
1.gfgd
2.dfdf
3.fdfds
4.dfggfd
5.fgf
...............etc"


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## Oxymoron (Apr 6, 2010)

Han Solo said:


> Ahaha, I just got reminded that Phoenix and Black Jack are technically shounen.
> 
> And there is not a seinen better than Phoenix. Suck on that, you weabo's who blather on about how a seinen must be inherently better than a shounen.


Let's see, BOTI explores the same theme as Phoenix, Boti is seinen, Boti is better! Your whole theory failed hardcore!

p.s. Reason I write this is where is that set from?


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## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

Oxymoron said:


> Let's see, BOTI explores the same theme as Phoenix, Boti is seinen, Boti is better! Your whole theory failed hardcore!
> 
> p.s. Reason I write this is where is that set from?



BOTI is damn good though. Not as good as Phoenix, but still very good.

My set is from REAL, a manga by Takehiko Inoue.


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## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Oxymoron said:


> Let's see, BOTI explores the same theme as Phoenix, Boti is seinen, Boti is better! Your whole theory failed hardcore!
> 
> p.s. Reason I write this is where is that set from?



BOTI better than phoenix, fucking rolfcopter to space. Same theme? WTF?!


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## Oxymoron (Apr 6, 2010)

@Hal Solo
Thx, looks awesome.

@Tekken
Roflcopter to space? What? And yes they explore the same theme, immortality, fear of death etc. Not to mention Boti has the greatest art ever seen in any manga to date and character development that can probably only be rivaled by Miura.

p.s. The initial post was mostly a joke and I really dont want to enter a debate what is actually a better manga since I read Phoenix ages ago and couldn't be arsed to actually go through it again although I can remember the theme explored.


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## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

I once had a person trying to convince me Berserk was better than Phoenix. What a terribly misguided soul. 

Reminded me of when I was once fending off 4 people telling me Death Note was better than Monster.

Even worse, someone once was telling me Yu Yu Hashuko was better than Tekkon Kinkreet (they're not even remotely connected so wtf?). I wanted to kill that person.


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## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

What about methodology and you know _ how_ they handle it? Yeah, "rolfcopter to space", when someone says something so inane I can only counter with an equal amount of inanity, but I couldn't match you in that.


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## Bluebeard (Apr 6, 2010)

so uh, let's discuss the problems with modern-day Shonen villains/antagonists 

also, wasn't Phoenix unfinished since Tezuka died?


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## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Berserk is was good, but it's starting to show it's age.


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## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

Hagiwara is my favorite artist.

His art just appeals to me, more than other.



Gain said:


> i can't help but feel phoenix's quality is being a little blasted out of proportion here



Kind of.

It's still my favorite manga ever, but it's not uncontested.


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## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

The problem with modern shounen is that ever since Dororo ended, things haven't been the same.


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## Oxymoron (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok two new replys, so as I said the first post about your theory failing hardcore was actually a joke.

With that said, I never said Berserk was better then Phoenix (even though it is teehee), however Miura's character development is top notch and can be compared to any manga or book there is.

Second, Boti and Phoenix are close in quality (and here again yes I think Boti is easily superior though) which means that ROFCLOPTER and other imbecilic internet memes reply does not stand, reasons I already mentioned.

Damn replys go fast here, all in all its entirely subjective and Im going to sleep. Bai


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## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

Oxymoron said:


> Damn replys go fast here, all in all its entirely subjective



Then why were you arguing it with me and on this post too boot?


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## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

Hagiwara, you have the best art.


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## Blinky (Apr 6, 2010)

That's fantastic .


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## Lord Genome (Apr 6, 2010)

i love Bastard

one of my favorite

you know what sucks

negima

ooooo


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## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> i love Bastard
> 
> one of my favorite
> 
> ...



Nuh-uh.

Negima is clearly the predecessor to Bastard!!


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## Will Smith (Apr 6, 2010)

I remember Togashi saying that Hagiwara art is why he stopped using assistants. Because, he wanted to develop a recognizable top notch art style. Of course, he couldn't get as good as Hagiwara, lol.


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## Han Solo (Apr 6, 2010)

100% cannon.

If you disgaree, your clearly just jealous that Negima got a live action movie and Bastard!! did not.


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## The Doctor (Apr 6, 2010)

jazz189 said:


> Bleach.
> /10 chara



ain't that simple son


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## jazz189 (Apr 6, 2010)

The Doctor said:


> ain't that simple son



Well first of all I'm a girl, and second of all someone already answered this.


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## Superstars (Apr 6, 2010)

Pompous said:


> Why do all your posts boil down to " I hate One Piece" ?



Nowhere in my post boiled down to that at all. It was mainly concerning the thread. The one piece fandom is just paranoid. Nice try at trying to label someone though, maybe next time.


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## The Doctor (Apr 6, 2010)

i know about the whole yyh/bleach story. there's still a difference between having a similar set and being influenced by.


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## Superstars (Apr 7, 2010)

MakeEmum said:


> but One Piece has *zero* problems thus irrelevant


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=louvZvSU9DM&feature=player_embedded#[/YOUTUBE]


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## Pompous (Apr 7, 2010)

Superstars said:


> Nowhere in my post boiled down to that at all. It was mainly concerning the thread. The one piece fandom is just paranoid. Nice try at trying to label someone though, maybe next time.



Fascinating


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## Amuro (Apr 7, 2010)

Tekken said:


> The problem with modern shounen is that ever since Dororo ended, things haven't been the same.



Yeah things haven't been the same since 1968.


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## Yagami1211 (Apr 7, 2010)

Are we talking about fighting shonens ? Cause I don't see a lot of City Hunter like animes anymore.


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## Level7N00b (Apr 7, 2010)

A lotta mangaka get lazy during their story as well. Like YYH's mangaka. The series was going great until the Chapter Black Sage where things just started to totally go downhill from whee they were. The art just got terrible, and when the Three King's Saga hit, oh man the drawing was so garbage I didn't wanna keep reading. Also, the last arc was so rushed it wasn't even funny. There were a few things that should have been elaborated on, and some things that were not better left unsaid.


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## Jugger (Apr 7, 2010)

Being lazy is more like seinen manga problem. They have more break weeks than weeks they are working.


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## Will Smith (Apr 7, 2010)

The art of early YYH was God awful, though.


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