# Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto vs Sage Mode Kabuto



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 1, 2013)

Battlefield: Kabuto's cave where he fought Sasuke and Itachi
Starting Distance: 30 Meters
Restrictions: Biju Mode, Edo Tensei
Knowledge: Naruto has general knowledge of Kabuto's abilities, Kabuto has general knowledge of Naruto's

Who wins?


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## EnergySage (Apr 1, 2013)

I'd give it to Naruto more times than not.

He has the speed to actually tag Kabuto, and the damage output to force his regen into overdrive, making him run out of chakra quickly.

FRS will actually be highly effective in this scenario. If Kabuto doesn't keep his regeneration active, then he'll die to the blades. If he does keep it active, it's going to be forced to regenerate millions of cuts on a cellular level, something that will quickly drain his chakra


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2013)

Due to Suigetsu's liquification ability and Karin's accelerated healing factor, Naruto really has no way to kill Kabuto.

Naruto really doesn't have any way to deal with Hakugeki, either, and this environment is ideal for Muki Tensei (although it's unclear how much damage that would actually do to Naruto; my guess is, not much).

Mugen Onsa probably wouldn't work, since Naruto's a perfect Jinchuuriki.

Kabuto's also got Senjutsu-powered Kumo Nenkin to restrain Naruto, something I don't think he'd be able to tear through with brute strength alone, which means it's game over if he gets caught.

Honestly, Kabuto's pretty well-equipped to beat Naruto here, though it'll take plenty of time and effort and he's likely to be on the losing end of the fight until Naruto gets tired.

I think the deciding factor here is chakra. While Naruto has more of it, by a longshot, Kabuto won't run out. Ever. Thanks to Jugo's ability, his Sennin Moodo is effectively unlimited. In contrast, Naruto _will_ eventually run out, and then he's easy-pickings.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 1, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Battlefield: Kabuto's cave where he fought Sasuke and Itachi
> Starting Distance: 30 Meters
> Restrictions: Biju Mode, Edo Tensei
> Knowledge: Naruto has general knowledge of Kabuto's abilities, Kabuto has general knowledge of Naruto's
> ...



Naruto will certainly make things harder for Kabuto. For example, if Kabuto wasn't in Sage Mode already then it could have _arguably_ been harder for him to achieve Sage Mode. However I would take what I just said with a grain of salt because Kabuto adapted his methodology to his opponents at the time (the Uchiha brothers) so he would've probably done similar with Naruto given his knowledge.

So the main difference here is Kabuto will adapt to Naruto's fighting style, or at least what he knows of it. Same with Naruto.

Thinking about it, it can go almost either way because of the nature of both their attacks and abilities, Naruto and SM Kabuto literally have an answer for everything the other will throw their way. For example for White Rage and Inorganic Life, Naruto has his emotion detection alongside things like multiple arms or jutsu absorbing Rasengan. 
Whereas in response to FRS and Bijuu-Dama, Kabuto has Orochimaru's oral rebirth he can time well due to his enhanced perceptions. 

On top of that Naruto's regeneration helps him brush off what Kabuto throws and Kabuto has similar, though he may lack durability in that he can be stabbed/cut, he makes up for it by being able to turn into water or with his super Sage+White Snake+Karin+his own regeneration combination. With his own regeneration coupled with Karin and Orochimaru's rapidly enhanced by the Sage Mode... it is possible he will be able to recover from an FRS... possibly (but doubtful) mini-Bijuu Dama.


With the knowledge though, I would probably give it to Kabuto.
Naruto has general knowledge, not complete knowledge. Ergo he won't know of Kabuto having the Sound 5's powers.
I can see a combination of Kimimaro and Kidomaro's powers keeping Naruto at bay while Kabuto lands Tayuya's Genjutsu.

However thinking about it if Naruto has Kurama's help then Genjutsu will not work throwing this back to this fight possibly going either way.

EDIT

Reading Nikushimi's post, I just realised I missed out chakra capacity. It is true that Naruto is more prone to running out than Kabuto is. So on that basis, I would lean towards Kabuto especially since the main ways to finish Kabuto (within Naruto's ability) require BM.

Though I guess Naruto could fuse with the toads to remove the the factor which would result to Kabuto's eventual win. However that would turn KCM Naruto into SKM Naruto, possibly, and this is about KCM Naruto.


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## TraderJoe (Apr 1, 2013)

FRS from Naruto could really damage Kabuto. His speed could overwhelm him, but the unlimited Sage mode means that Kabuto will outlast him. If Naruto can finish him before he runs out of chakra he wins, but if not then Kabuto is the winner. I think Kabuto wins more times than not.


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## ueharakk (Apr 2, 2013)

I don't see how Kabuto wins this.

FRS will end Kabuto as it not only vaporizes him, but it also attacks his chakra network which disables him from being able to use any chakra process (ninjutsu, hydrification, healing), and large rasengan variants will massively drain his stamina.  

It seems that people in this thread are still under the false assumption that SM = unlimited chakra.  However this is easily false as Sage chakra requires natural energy in addition to the user's own chakra so while the former ingredient is infinite, the later is just not so and thus they still are limited in the amount of sage chakra they can use.  On the other hand KCM Naruto was able to spam his form for an entire night and over half a day despite Kurama eating his base chakra and Naruto splitting his reserves 13+ ways a while before he ran out (which increases the drainage by a factor of 13).

I do not see Kabuto being able to dodge a FRS flash shunshined into him nor do I see him capable of dodging multiple FRS being guided into him in the same manner that it was done on sandaime raikage (who despite being faster than Kabuto could not dodge 1).

Muki tensei can be busted by FRS and SM Naruto who has weaker defensive feats than KCM Naruto took zero damage from cave spikes, so it would only be a means of restraining Naruto's movements rather than damaging him.

In Hakugeki, Naruto can still sense and use chakra arms since they only require thought, so he'd be able to fend Kabuto off in addition to the possibility that his localized chakra cloak would allow him to resist the affects of the tech (it seemed because Itachi had an edo body, he was able to take the tech better than sasuke).

Tayuya's genjutsu is broken via partner method, Kidomaru's webs and Kimimaro's bones are easily cut by FRS or even a rasengan varient, jirobou's earth techniques aren't very offensive and would be easily busted by a normal rasengan, and chakra scalpels aren't doing much (if any) damage to KCM Naruto considering his durability feats in the war.

I don't see Kabuto lasting long at all, I see him being overwhelmed and being taken out by one of multiple guided FRS.


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## Totsuka Blitz (Apr 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't see how Kabuto wins this.
> 
> FRS will end Kabuto as it not only vaporizes him, but it also attacks his chakra network which disables him from being able to use any chakra process (ninjutsu, hydrification, healing), and large rasengan variants will massively drain his stamina.
> 
> ...


This. I think Kabuto has a better chance if he summons Manda 2.0 as I am thinking 1 frs certainly will not put it down.

With chakra arms and mini rasenshurikens at his disposal, naruto should defeat Kabuto comfortably.


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## Csdabest (Apr 2, 2013)

Naruto has nothing that cant really hurt Kabuto. At best he will make him splash up.


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## joshhookway (Apr 2, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Naruto has nothing that cant really hurt Kabuto. At best he will make him splash up.



Cutting him on a cellular level could.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 2, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Cutting him on a cellular level could.



Kabuto can turn his body to water, to say nothing of his ridiculous combination of healing factors (Karin's + White Snake) and his ability to generate an entirely new body via Oral Rebirth. Even the damage caused by FRS can be fully mitigated- assuming Naruto even manages to hit him with it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Kabuto can turn his body to water, to say nothing of his *ridiculous combination of healing factors (Karin's + White Snake)* and his ability to generate an entirely new body via Oral Rebirth. Even the damage caused by FRS can be fully mitigated- assuming Naruto even manages to hit him with it.



Actually it is a more ridiculous combination than you outlined. Indeed Kabuto has Karin and the White Snake's healing. However he has more, his own healing (he's obviously not constrained by chakra now) as well as the Sage Mode healing. Bear in mind the Sage Mode will rapidly boost all the aforesaid, this is also supported by the databook.


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## ueharakk (Apr 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually it is a more ridiculous combination than you outlined. Indeed Kabuto has Karin and the White Snake's healing. However he has more, his own healing (he's obviously not constrained by chakra now) as well as the Sage Mode healing. Bear in mind the Sage Mode will rapidly boost all the aforesaid, this is also supported by the databook.



that stuff is all fine and dandy, however i think there are 3 points that I would like the Kabuto-supporters are not taking into account.

1) FRS deals cellular damage that cannot be repaired by any kind of jutsu that we know of.  When Kabuto is hit with an attack, his hydrification is not instant.  We see that after getting hit with the arrow, he takes time to liquify and sasuke is able to draw blood from him when he hits him with the sword.  Kabuto getting his horn cut off is also another example.  So when he gets hit with FRS, he is going to take a lot of damage before he can even properly liquify.

2) suigetsu was K.O.'d while in a lake from just having a bijuudama pass through him.  The actual explosion occured miles behind himself.  Assuming Kabuto can properly liquify before taking any damage, he is going to be trapped in the wind sphere which is far far more damaging than having a bijuudama pass through oneself.  

3) in KCM even naruto's non-FRS rasengans are so powerful that it takes edo tenseis chapters before they can even start to move again let alone heal from the full damage.  Edo tensei's regeneration is by far the greatest regen out of anything we've seen in the manga.

I think that if we include these three points, then the evidence suggests that Kabuto would not be able to withstand a FRS, and that even normal rasengans done in KCM would either do good damage to him or drain his stamina noticeably.


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## RBL (Apr 2, 2013)

kabuto modificated sage mode stomps, i do actually think he is at BM naruto's level.


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## Negrito (Apr 2, 2013)

Some of you guys need to go back and re-read the effects of F:RS.

F:RS attacks on a cellular level like a poison. *Severing the chakra tubes on every cell.*

Whether Kabuto has massive regen and can liquify  or not it won't matter. He won't be able to use his severed chakra tubes for such actions. And yes liquification doesn't magically take way the chakra tubes on every one of Kabuto's cells, Kabuto just turns into a puddle of water unable to reform himself.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> 1) FRS deals cellular damage that cannot be repaired by any kind of jutsu that we know of.  When Kabuto is hit with an attack, his hydrification is not instant.  We see that after getting hit with the arrow, he takes time to liquify and sasuke is able to draw blood from him when he hits him with the sword.  Kabuto getting his horn cut off is also another example.  So when he gets hit with FRS, he is going to take a lot of damage before he can even properly liquify.



Kabuto's own regeneration makes new cells to replace the old, but not enough to heal from a base Rasengan. However this function is rapidly enhanced with Sage Mode. That's complemented by all the other sources of healing Kabuto has; also rapidly boosted by the Sage Mode. 

Regardless, Kabuto has Suigetsu's DNA, if he wills it, he can liquify instantly. 



> 2) suigetsu was K.O.'d while in a lake from just having a bijuudama pass through him.  The actual explosion occured miles behind himself.  Assuming Kabuto can properly liquify before taking any damage, he is going to be trapped in the wind sphere which is far far more damaging than having a bijuudama pass through oneself.



Suigetsu doesn't have Kabuto's insane mix of regeneration, on top of that Kabuto explicitly said he modified Suigetsu's ability. So it is unlikely Kabuto would suffer the same fate.



> 3) in KCM even naruto's non-FRS rasengans are so powerful that it takes edo tenseis chapters before they can even start to move again let alone heal from the full damage.  Edo tensei's regeneration is by far the greatest regen out of anything we've seen in the manga.



However Kabuto's combined regeneration has a different nature to Edo Tensei, for instance Kabuto is always recovering because he takes in natural energy.
On top of that he can always do what he did against Rasengan on a much higher level; he can heal like Karin on a much higher level; he can heal like how Sasuke did after Deidara on a much higher level. What you're missing is these forms of healing are all _combined_ and _rapidly_ enhanced by the Sage Mode, which in turn also contributes to healing.

Plus unlike an Edo Tensei, assuming a non-FRS jutsu could be lethal for Kabuto, he can always get a new body.



> I think that if we include these three points, then the evidence suggests that Kabuto would not be able to withstand a FRS, and that even normal rasengans done in KCM would either do good damage to him or drain his stamina noticeably.



The points are weak because it takes a reductionist approach i.e. you separate bits and pieces and comment. It doesn't consider enhancements (Suigetsu's ability) nor does it consider the Sage Mode enhancements. Further it doesn't consider how all these regenerative abilities work together to create one of the most broken tanks in the manga. 

Naruto's only shot is to Kabuto inside FRS and hope Kabuto's rapidly enhanced healing won't keep up. However we need to bear in mind Kabuto's perception and reflexes are greatly enhanced in Sage Mode, so he may be able to dodge FRS or prepare his healing.


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## Pirao (Apr 2, 2013)

I don't see how Kabuto lasts long against a dozen KCM clones shooting guided FRS at him that fuck up even his regenerating body. Naruto takes this comfortably.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto's own regeneration makes new cells to replace the old, but not enough to heal from a base Rasengan. However this function is rapidly enhanced with Sage Mode. That's complemented by all the other sources of healing Kabuto has; also rapidly boosted by the Sage Mode.
> 
> Regardless, Kabuto has Suigetsu's DNA, if he wills it, he can liquify instantly.



But all those other sources of healing are irrelevant when you can't use chakra, which is exactly what FRS does.



> Suigetsu doesn't have Kabuto's insane mix of regeneration, on top of that Kabuto explicitly said he modified Suigetsu's ability. So it is unlikely Kabuto would suffer the same fate.



It isn't the same attack either. His regeneration is nullified by FRS properties.




> However Kabuto's combined regeneration has a different nature to Edo Tensei, for instance Kabuto is always recovering because he takes in natural energy.
> On top of that he can always do what he did against Rasengan on a much higher level; he can heal like Karin on a much higher level; he can heal like how Sasuke did after Deidara on a much higher level. What you're missing is these forms of healing are all _combined_ and _rapidly_ enhanced by the Sage Mode, which in turn also contributes to healing.



Yes, you already mentioned that Kabuto has great regeneration, we get it. That regeneration is irrelevant if you're unable to use it, which is what FRS properties would cause.



> Plus unlike an Edo Tensei, assuming a non-FRS jutsu could be lethal for Kabuto, he can always get a new body.



Get a new body like by shedding his skin? Yes, but that consumes chakra.



> The points are weak because it takes a reductionist approach i.e. you separate bits and pieces and comment. It doesn't consider enhancements (Suigetsu's ability) nor does it consider the Sage Mode enhancements. Further it doesn't consider how all these regenerative abilities work together to create one of the most broken tanks in the manga.



It is not reductionist at all. If you can't use chakra, you can't use any of those regenerative properties.



> Naruto's only shot is to Kabuto inside FRS and hope Kabuto's rapidly enhanced healing won't keep up. However we need to bear in mind Kabuto's perception and reflexes are greatly enhanced in Sage Mode, so he may be able to dodge FRS or prepare his healing.



Dodge a FRS? Possible. Dodge a dozen FRS from different angles that can be redirected by chakra arms? Quite doubtful.


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## ueharakk (Apr 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto's own regeneration makes new cells to replace the old, but not enough to heal from a base Rasengan. However this function is rapidly enhanced with Sage Mode. That's complemented by all the other sources of healing Kabuto has; also rapidly boosted by the Sage Mode.


not talking about rasengan, talking about FRS, the one that does damage that tsunade can't heal.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Regardless, Kabuto has Suigetsu's DNA, if he wills it, he can liquify instantly.


that is not true, just because he has the DNA does not mean that he can use his abilities as well as they can.   The manga canon has shown many times that he can't liquify instantly.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Suigetsu doesn't have Kabuto's insane mix of regeneration, on top of that Kabuto explicitly said he modified Suigetsu's ability. So it is unlikely Kabuto would suffer the same fate.


Kabuto's insane mix of regeneration is countered by the fact that he does not have a lake and that being in the FRS vortext is far far move damaging than having a bijuudama merely pass through you.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However Kabuto's combined regeneration has a different nature to Edo Tensei, for instance Kabuto is always recovering because he takes in natural energy.


um... edo tenseis are always recovering as well, just at a much faster pace.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> On top of that he can always do what he did against Rasengan on a much higher level; he can heal like Karin on a much higher level; he can heal like how Sasuke did after Deidara on a much higher level. What you're missing is these forms of healing are all _combined_ and _rapidly_ enhanced by the Sage Mode, which in turn also contributes to healing.


yeah i get all that, but his current rasengan is levels beyond levels stronger than the one that kabuto was K.O'd by before.  So once again it balances out, and I'm still giving the benefit of the doubt as I'm not arguing that the rasengan one-shots him like last time.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Plus unlike an Edo Tensei, assuming a non-FRS jutsu could be lethal for Kabuto, he can always get a new body.


oral rebirth does not heal the chakra network, no kind of healing does that.  Heck oral rebirth didn't even give Sasuke new wings after he lost one against deidara and the next against itachi. Tsunade's medical ninjutsu is so advanced it could heal Orochimaru's arms, yet she can't heal FRS damage.  If oral rebirth could heal from something tsunade can't then Orochimaru would just oral rebirth and walla, arms are fixed.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The points are weak because it takes a reductionist approach i.e. you separate bits and pieces and comment. It doesn't consider enhancements (Suigetsu's ability) nor does it consider the Sage Mode enhancements.* Further it doesn't consider how all these regenerative abilities work together to create one of the most broken tanks in the manga. *


Um..... my post does consider the enhancements, which is why I show you how the pros of FRS would counterbalance the pros of the enhancements that Kabuto has.

In addition to that, I don't know how you can say the bolded.  Surely Kabuto is a regenerating monster, but he has not given us any feats that firmly establish's that claim.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto's only shot is to Kabuto inside FRS and hope Kabuto's rapidly enhanced healing won't keep up. However we need to bear in mind Kabuto's perception and reflexes are greatly enhanced in Sage Mode, so he may be able to dodge FRS or prepare his healing.


Sandaime Raikage (who is faster than kabuto but lacks his sensing) wasn't able to dodge 1 guided FRS, Kabuto is going to be up against multiple guided FRS, there is no way he is dodging that.

then there's always naruto flash shunshining a FRS right into him.

I don't know how Kabuto's rapid enhanced healing will be able to keep up.  I've shown you that we have suigetsu in a lake getting K.O'd by a bijuudama merely passing through him.  That feat counterweights kabuto's enhancements as he does not have a lake and is taking a much more powerful hit that persists for a while.  And that's all on the assumption that he manages to fully liquify before being hit, as if even a part of him gets hit before liquifying, he will not be able to liquify that part as that part does not have any chakra flowing into it.


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## Negrito (Apr 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't know how Kabuto's rapid enhanced healing will be able to keep up.  I've shown you that we have suigetsu in a lake getting K.O'd by a bijuudama merely passing through him.  That feat counterweights kabuto's enhancements as he does not have a lake and is taking a much more powerful hit that persists for a while. * And that's all on the assumption that he manages to fully liquify before being hit, as if even a part of him gets hit before liquifying, he will not be able to liquify that part as that part does not have any chakra flowing into it.*



I wouldn't even matter if he got to liquify or not. Kabuto's cells are still there and they still have chakra tubes connected to them when he liquifies; F:RS will, as per it's own effect, attack and destroy these. He will just be reduced to a puddle of water not able to use chakra any more.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> not talking about rasengan, talking about FRS, the one that does damage that tsunade can't heal.



Kabuto may have healing above Tsunade's healing capacity given he's brought together, and rapidly enhanced, some of the strongest healing abilities.



> that is not true, just because he has the DNA does not mean that he can use his abilities as well as they can.   The manga canon has shown many times that he can't liquify instantly.



That is generally what it means. Manga canon has shown he has the DNA, which is good enough. Just because he hasn't been put in a situation where he needed to liquify, doesn't mean he can't. That's like saying Kabuto cannot use Orochimaru's jutsu despite the manga suggesting he can, all because he didn't show it.



> Kabuto's insane mix of regeneration is countered by the fact that he does not have a lake and that being in the FRS vortext is far far move damaging than having a bijuudama merely pass through you.



How on earth is the lack of a lake going to impact Kabuto's insane healing? :S

If he really needs water, he can use his Suiton jutsu to bring it.



> um... edo tenseis are always recovering as well, just at a much faster pace.



Same deal with Kabuto, hence he wounding him is a useless move. That's considering healing alone. 



> yeah i get all that, but his current rasengan is levels beyond levels stronger than the one that kabuto was K.O'd by before.  So once again it balances out, and I'm still giving the benefit of the doubt as I'm not arguing that the rasengan one-shots him like last time.



And I'm saying look at that page, his healing was constrained by his chakra capacity. It wouldn't be now, now it would be rapidly boosted and complemented by other healing abilities which are also rapidly boosted.

So Rasengan got stronger, but then again Kabuto's healing got more insane.



> oral rebirth does not heal the chakra network, no kind of healing does that.  Heck oral rebirth didn't even give Sasuke new wings after he lost one against deidara and the next against itachi. Tsunade's medical ninjutsu is so advanced it could heal Orochimaru's arms, yet she can't heal FRS damage.  If oral rebirth could heal from something tsunade can't then Orochimaru would just oral rebirth and walla, arms are fixed.



You don't know for sure what oral rebirth does and does not heal. Apparently it can bring back entire limbs, which is something Tsunade's regeneration can't even do. Sasuke didn't have all the modifications Kabuto has, any real things lost could be reshaped with Suigetsu's power; if what is lost really needs replacing.

Tsunade's medical jutsu isn't comparable to various healing factors brought together all enhanced by a perfect Sage Mode whilst being aided by the form's own healing.



> Um..... my post does consider the enhancements, which is why I show you how the pros of FRS would counterbalance the pros of the enhancements that Kabuto has.



You looked at individual parts, and didn't focus too much on enhancements. You didn't put everything together, just how FRS would do against _one_ form of healing each time. Nothing about them all put together.



> In addition to that, I don't know how you can say the bolded.  Surely Kabuto is a regenerating monster, but he has not given us any feats that firmly establish's that claim.



We've seen the other healing factors at work; we know Senjutsu rapidly enhances your base attributes and provides its own healing; we know Kabuto has all of these things. It is not hard to put the dots together.



> Sandaime Raikage (who is faster than kabuto but lacks his sensing) wasn't able to dodge 1 guided FRS, Kabuto is going to be up against multiple guided FRS, there is no way he is dodging that.



The Raikage was not able to outmaneuver a Sage, and Kabuto is one. So the speed argument is not going to fly against Kabuto. Especially when Kabuto was able to compete against two fighters who predict movements while he was blind.




> I don't know how Kabuto's rapid enhanced healing will be able to keep up.  I've shown you that we have suigetsu in a lake getting K.O'd by a bijuudama merely passing through him.  That feat counterweights kabuto's enhancements as he does not have a lake and is taking a much more powerful hit that persists for a while.  And that's all on the assumption that he manages to fully liquify before being hit, as if even a part of him gets hit before liquifying, he will not be able to liquify that part as that part does not have any chakra flowing into it.



Read this part. You showed me how an un-enhanced Suigetsu gets KOd. You don't consider that it is modified by Kabuto and he has other healing alongside this. 

You can't make a case claiming Kabuto's healing isn't that fast when you're only looking at individual aspects and not once putting them all together. The latter gives you the actual picture.


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## EnergySage (Apr 2, 2013)

Kabuto's liquification is BASED ON the Hozuki clan technique, not the same technique. Different things


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## Bonly (Apr 2, 2013)

With his increased healing factor via Karin and his ability to slowly turn into liquid via Suigetsu along with his healing jutsu makes it so it'll be hard for Naruto to hurt him. With the ability to constantly draw in the force of nature via Jugo this means Kabuto can stay in SM as for quite some time once in it and with his perceptual abilities it'll be hard to hit Kabuto. This means that almost everything in Naruto's arsenal can't put Kabuto down making this a very tough fight for Naruto without even bringing up anything else Kabuto can do.

There's Hakugeki which will blind Naruto as well as paralyze them, which will be quite helpful in landing a killing blow and with Muki Tensei it will keep Naruto on his toes.

With the sound 5 jutsu Kabuto can work on a way to trap Naruto just like he did to Itachi+Sasuke. Add in how using the Tayuya's genjutsu will trap Naruto for a second or two which could lead him to getting hit by Muki Tensei or something else.

Naruto's good but in this location I'd favor Kabuto more times then not.


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## ueharakk (Apr 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto may have healing above Tsunade's healing capacity given he's brought together, and rapidly enhanced, some of the strongest healing abilities.


those abilities only stack as in allow him to heal better/quicker/easier against attacks/damage that he actually can heal against.  And no, tsunade is stated to be the best medical nin in the manga, rectified by her abilities 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That is generally what it means. Manga canon has shown he has the DNA, which is good enough. Just because he hasn't been put in a situation where he needed to liquify, doesn't mean he can't. That's like saying Kabuto cannot use Orochimaru's jutsu despite the manga suggesting he can, all because he didn't show it.


that is in no way good enough.  Your stance would only be correct if we didn't have the feats of him not being able to liquify quickly. The manga canon has shown positive evidence of him not being able to liquify quickly, getting hit by attacks, bleeding and so on.  therefore we follow the evidence where it leads, and that is to the conclusion that he does not liquify quickly like suigetsu.  




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How on earth is the lack of a lake going to impact Kabuto's insane healing? :S
> 
> If he really needs water, he can use his Suiton jutsu to bring it.


brotherin, are you actively blinding yourself to the logic of my argument or are you serious?  Kabuto obviously still has his insane healing, but Suigetsu having a lake goes to show that SUIGETSU had a major buff when he took the attack, yet was still K.O.'d.  Thus it counterweights Kabuto's buffs.






Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Same deal with Kabuto, hence he wounding him is a useless move. That's considering healing alone.


brotherin, reread what you wrote.  You said that Kabuto has healing that is of a different nature than Edo tenseis and went on to list how SM healing actively heals him.  Your post is attacking a strawman.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> And I'm saying look at that page, his healing was constrained by his chakra capacity. It wouldn't be now, now it would be rapidly boosted and complemented by other healing abilities which are also rapidly boosted.


I already know all of this and my post has taken it into account.  The rasengan being much much more powerful than the one he used back then means that kabuto would NEED a far greater chakra capacity, and buffs in order to just come out as bad as he did back then.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So Rasengan got stronger, but then again Kabuto's healing got more insane.


which is why I said it no longer one-shots.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You don't know for sure what oral rebirth does and does not heal. Apparently it can bring back entire limbs, which is something Tsunade's regeneration can't even do. Sasuke didn't have all the modifications Kabuto has, any real things lost could be reshaped with Suigetsu's power; if what is lost really needs replacing.


you have just as much of a burden of proof to show that oral rebirth can heal one's chakra network.  I have met my burden of proof by showing that tsunade is by far the best healer in the manga and despite having karin's DNA, Juugo's cells, the white snake ability, Suigetsu's DNA, and oral rebirth and even a pseudo hashirama body, orochimaru could not heal from wounds that Tsunade could.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsunade's medical jutsu isn't comparable to various healing factors brought together all enhanced by a perfect Sage Mode whilst being aided by the form's own healing.


what is this based on?  That's just an assertion.  And that's a false assertion anyway because Kabuto's healing may increase his ability to heal from attacks that he can heal from, but that in no way means that he can suddenly heal from damage that was said to be unhealable.  

Give tsunade sennin mode and the KCM chakra cloak and she still would not be able to heal chakra network damage because those powerups only boost damage that she can actually heal from.  All of Kabuto's jutsus are either just stat multipliers or stackables.  Being able to use 2 healing abilities that can't repair chakra networks does not mean that if you use both at the same time, it suddenly can.  This holds true for 3, 4, 5, 6 as many as you want, merely stacking abilities in no way means that they do what they could not do before.  




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You looked at individual parts, and didn't focus too much on enhancements. You didn't put everything together, just how FRS would do against _one_ form of healing each time. Nothing about them all put together.


Of course I did took into account all of the healing factors.  Stacking healing enhancements does not change the dimensions of those enhancements can heal from.  I showed you the pros of FRS and how it counterbalances the stacked enhancements.  if you don't think the claims of my post are valid, then attack them. 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We've seen the other healing factors at work; we know Senjutsu rapidly enhances your base attributes and provides its own healing; we know Kabuto has all of these things. It is not hard to put the dots together.


but that's just a resume post, basically just listing "kabuto has this and kabuto has that" yet not bringing up quantifiable feats of the individual powerups or evidence that would show how those powerups stack in order to make him a greusome tank.  




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The Raikage was not able to outmaneuver a Sage, and Kabuto is one. So the speed argument is not going to fly against Kabuto. Especially when Kabuto was able to compete against two fighters who predict movements while he was blind.


That's a false comparison as the raikage was on the offensive against SM Naruto which is why naruto was able to land a blow on him, however against KCM Naruto, he was on the full defensive trying to avoid the attack and he could not.  

In addition to that, you completely ignored the fact that it's not going to be 1 KCM Naruto but multiple KCM Narutos.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Read this part. You showed me how an un-enhanced Suigetsu gets KOd. You don't consider that it is modified by Kabuto and he has other healing alongside this.


In no way is that an un-enhanced Suigetsu as he has a lake.  I DO consider that it is modified by Kabuto and that he has other healing alongside it, however the pros on the opposite end make up for Kabuto's pros.  You are welcome to try and show that the pros on my end don't, however you can't just state that they don't and leave it at that.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You can't make a case claiming Kabuto's healing isn't that fast when you're only looking at individual aspects and not once putting them all together. The latter gives you the actual picture.


I'm in no way only looking at the individual aspects of his healing, I am including the total picture which is why I show the pros on the opposite end.  In addition to that, in no way does stacking abilities that can't repair a chakra network together all of a sudden allow one to repair the chakra network, stacking abilities only adds the individual abilities together, it does not give them new properties.  Once again, Tsunade was able to heal Oro's arms while oro had all of the powers kabuto had at his disposal, yet that same tsunade can't heal cellular damage.  

So I have fullfilled my burden of proof by showing you why Kabuto can't heal from cellular damage and how even if he was able to fully liquify before getting hit, he'd still be K.O'd by the wind sphere.



Bonly said:


> With his increased healing factor via Karin and his ability to slowly turn into liquid via Suigetsu along with his healing jutsu makes it so it'll be hard for Naruto to hurt him. With the ability to constantly draw in the force of nature via Jugo this means Kabuto can stay in SM as for quite some time once in it and with his perceptual abilities it'll be hard to hit Kabuto. This means that almost everything in Naruto's arsenal can't put Kabuto down making this a very tough fight for Naruto without even bringing up anything else Kabuto can do.


How would those healing abilities prevent him from suffereing permanent chakra network damage from FRS?  Does him having karin's healing stacked with suigetsus hydrification stacked with sage mode powering them both up mean that he can suddenly heal from damage that none of those abilities can heal from?
How is Kabuto dodging multiple guided FRS when the faster sandaime raikage while on the complete defensive wasn't able to dodge 1?
Or a flash shunshined FRS?



Bonly said:


> There's Hakugeki which will blind Naruto as well as paralyze them, which will be quite helpful in landing a killing blow and with Muki Tensei it will keep Naruto on his toes.


How is Kabuto landing a killing blow on the guy who takes V2 slicing attacks to the face without damage?  How is blinding or paralyzing Naruto going to do anything when Naruto canonically can fight while blinded and can generate chakra arms with mere thought?



Bonly said:


> With the sound 5 jutsu Kabuto can work on a way to trap Naruto just like he did to Itachi+Sasuke. Add in how using the Tayuya's genjutsu will trap Naruto for a second or two which could lead him to getting hit by Muki Tensei or something else.


How would muki tensei even damage Naruto when in the less durable sage mode, he takes zero damage from muki tensei's spikes?  How is tayuya's genjutsu trapping him for any duration of time when Bee gets snapped out of genjutsu (after he realizes he's in it) with enough time to block itachi's shuriken despite it being thrown before he was told.



Bonly said:


> Naruto's good but in this location I'd favor Kabuto more times then not.


the heck?


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## PDQ (Apr 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> When Kabuto is hit with an attack, his hydrification is not instant.  We see that after getting hit with the arrow, he takes time to liquify and sasuke is able to draw blood from him when he hits him with the sword.


It's not that it took time to liquify, it's that he wanted to lure them in by making them think he was trapped.  It was already liquified, it just didn't slough off so it would look like he couldn't move.


> Kabuto getting his horn cut off is also another example.


Only because he didn't care about his horns to regenerate them.  It didn't affect him in battle.


> 2) suigetsu was K.O.'d while in a lake from just having a bijuudama pass through him.  The actual explosion occured miles behind himself.  Assuming Kabuto can properly liquify before taking any damage, he is going to be trapped in the wind sphere which is far far more damaging than having a bijuudama pass through oneself.


It engulfed his entire body and practically vaporized him and he survived.  And Bijuudama >>> FRS.  Hence Naruto trying to do Bijuu Rasengan after FRS failed on Sandaime Raikage.


Negrito said:


> I wouldn't even matter if he got to liquify or not. Kabuto's cells are still there and they still have chakra tubes connected to them when he liquifies


Not really, we've seen Hydrification basically changes the overall structure of the body, like Konan into paper.  We've seen even he can reform even when *splattered* by Juugo's punch.  That's far beyond the limits of any healing.


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## Bonly (Apr 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> How would those healing abilities prevent him from suffereing permanent chakra network damage from FRS?  Does him having karin's healing stacked with suigetsus hydrification stacked with sage mode powering them both up mean that he can suddenly heal from damage that none of those abilities can heal from?
> How is Kabuto dodging multiple guided FRS when the faster sandaime raikage while on the complete defensive wasn't able to dodge 1?
> Or a flash shunshined FRS?



1) I never said that the healing abilities would help with damage done by FRS nor did I say nothing in Naruto arsenal can't harm Kabuto. I said most of Naruto's arsenal can't harm Kabuto and never said which jutsu would or would not do any damage.

2) The FRS throw by KCM Naruto shouldn't be as fast as the one thrown by SM Naruto nor should it be too much for Kabuto to handle. Just read the spoiler for more info about it.

*Spoiler*: __ 



There are some things that need to be addressed about the Rasenshuriken when used by KCM Naruto and when it is used by Sage Naruto. The velocity at which this jutsu travels is wildly different depending on which enhanced state Naruto is using. Essentially, Naruto's Rasenshuriken does not travel as fast as when thrown in KCM as it does when thrown in Sage Mode. I will elaborate, but first I will explain the physics behind it all.

As we all know, when a person throws an object, there are multiple factors that come into play which determine the velocity at which it will travel. The wind resistance, the object's mass, gravity, but most importantly (as far as the needs of this debate are concerned) the throwing strength of the person that is throwing it. Naruto has displayed feats that show he possesses 100+ ton levels of physical strength when he is in Sage Mode.

Observe how effortlessly he stops these giant creatures from charging at him at full speed. After this, he then tosses these gargantuan creatures into the sky as though they are mere rag dolls.

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When considering this, one must take into account how this incredible amount of physical strength plays a part in the velocity that a Sage Mode Rasenshuriken travels when thrown. As we know, the Rasenshuriken was calculated (this is one of the few calculations that I somewhat agree with lol) at being of Hypersonic levels of speed. The feat that this calculation was based on was when Naruto hurled a Rasenshuriken at Deva Path just after he disengaged his Chibaku Tensei. When Deva Path dodged this attack, he was counting down from five to keep in mind how much longer the five second interval would last so he could use another Shinra Tensei. This particular Rasenshuriken was stated to travel the distance of approximately one kilometer in one second.

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It seems to have never been considered that the only reason the Rasenshuriken could travel at Hypersonic velocities was purely due to the fact that it was being thrown by an individual who possessed highly superhuman levels of strength. The Rasenshuriken itself does not possess any forms of self-propulsion. The jutsu itself is not what is producing this speed. What is producing this speed is the fact that it is being thrown by Naruto while he is in Sage Mode and has the same throwing arm that allows him to hurl creatures into the sky that are easily in excess of 100 tons. Keep in mind that when thrown, the Rasenshuriken behaves exactly like your typical shuriken. Naruto has even used Shuriken-based ninjutsu upon the Rasenshuriken. Not only has Naruto used the Henge no Jutsu to transform himself into the likeness of the Rasenshuriken, but Naruto has even used the Shadow Shuriken no Jutsu in an attempt to land a decisive blow against Deva Path.

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By comparison, we see that KCM Naruto has displayed some comparatively less impressive feats in the area of raw physical strength. We see that Naruto is easily repelled by Ay's casual punches. Keep in mind that at this point, Ay was not trying to hurt Naruto, but merely was trying to delay him until he and Tsunade could discourage Naruto and Bee from getting involved in the war.

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We even see that Han (the Jinchurriki or the 5 Tails) was able to nearly overwhelm KCM with the strength of just one on his punches. During another exchange, Han connects with a single kick which sends Naruto flying (Bee is prompted to catch Naruto himself).

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Once the Jinchurriki begin transforming into their Biju, KCM Naruto finds himself trying to prevent himself from being eaten by the 4 Tails. Despite his best efforts, he is not able to prevent the 4 Tails from chomping down and eating him. Now we must ask ourselves....would Naruto have trouble getting himself out of this quandary if he was in Sage Mode? No he would not.

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Keep in mind that the 4 Tails is around the same size of Animal Path's Kuchiyose creatures. These creatures can be effortlessly thrown into the sky and stopped in their tracks as a result of the gargantuan amount of physical strength that Sage Mode grants him. What this is all establishing is the fact that Naruto possesses vastly more physical strength in Sage Mode than he could ever hope to achieve while in his KCM. This subsequently means that KCM Naruto has a significantly weaker throwing arm, and the laws of physics dictate that the Rasenshuriken would travel significantly slower than that of a Rasenshuriken thrown by Sage Mode Naruto. In essence....KCM Rasenshuriken is quite slow compared to a Sage Mode Rasenshuriken. Quite frankly, I doubt a KCM Rasenshuriken travels any faster than any other normal shuriken that would be thrown. Many tend to misinterpret the feat Naruto accomplished when he hit the 3rd Raikage with his Rasenshuriken. Keep in mind that when 3rd Raikage dodged it the first time, Naruto did not throw it at all, but rather extended one of his chakra arms.

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In the following attempt, Naruto's extended chakra arm merely flicked it's wrist to fling the Rasenshuriken back towards Raikage. However, this maneuver was more akin to a "toss" more than a full strength throw. I would think it unnecessary to point out the fact that this small chakra hand is certainly not throwing the Rasenshuriken with the same amount of power as Sage Mode Naruto.

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Finally when Naruto connected, he was already inches behind 3rd Raikage so speed was of no issue.




3) As for multiple guided FRS, thats unlikely to happen as Naruto barely uses many clones while fighting just one person more times then not. I doubt he'll make many and have many of them use FRS for it to be a problem. 




> How is Kabuto landing a killing blow on the guy who takes V2 slicing attacks to the face without damage?



He has many ways.



> How is blinding or paralyzing Naruto going to do anything when Naruto canonically can fight while blinded and can generate chakra arms with mere thought?



In canon was Naruto ears ringing and making him feel pain? No it was not, so don't compare Naruto only being blinded by Fu's jutsu to the increased power of a sage jutsu which made EMS Sasuke lose focus and drop his Susanoo to imply Kabuto's jutsu won't be effective.



> How would muki tensei even damage Naruto *when in the less durable sage mode, he takes zero damage from muki tensei's spikes?*



I'd assume the spikes would pierce him. Ueharakk please tell me that you are not referring to normal rock spikes instead of the sage jutsu which increases the power of all jutsu to implying yet again that one of Sage Mode Kabuto's jutsu will not be effective.



> *How is tayuya's genjutsu trapping him for any duration of time* when Bee gets snapped out of genjutsu (after he realizes he's in it) with enough time to block itachi's shuriken despite it being thrown before he was told



Is this a trick question? Tayuya's genjutsu will put Naruto under for a second or two until Kurama gets him out thus he will be trapped for a duration of a few seconds. This is also assuming Kurama gets him out in a few seconds like Gyūki does because as we have seen in the past, just because your a perfect Jin doesn't mean you can't be under genjutsu for quite a while.


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## joshhookway (Apr 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Kabuto can turn his body to water, to say nothing of his ridiculous combination of healing factors (Karin's + White Snake) and his ability to generate an entirely new body via Oral Rebirth. Even the damage caused by FRS can be fully mitigated- assuming Naruto even manages to hit him with it.



Naruto could hit kabuto with FRS. Even though SM Kabuto has insane reflexes, Naruto shows us with Raikage that sometimes, it's physically impossible to dodge his FRS.

Oral Rebirth is the only thing that save Kabuto from FRS. Kabuto's liquidification has weaknesses. FRS can disperse the liquid into pieces to the point that Kabuto can't turn solid away. Karin's regeneration can't deal with FRS.

Oral Rebirth takes a lot of Chakra though.


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## ueharakk (Apr 2, 2013)

PDQ said:


> It's not that it took time to liquify, it's that he wanted to lure them in by making them think he was trapped.  It was already liquified, it just didn't slough off so it would look like he couldn't move.


that would be speculation at best if and only if that was a standalone feat that i built my entire argument on.  But it's not so.  We have kabuto failing to liquify when susanoo grabs both him and his snakes failing to liquify and bleeding after sasuke throws his sword at one of kabuto's snakes, and failing to liquify his horn when itachi cuts it off.



PDQ said:


> Only because he didn't care about his horns to regenerate them.  It didn't affect him in battle.


he didn't even know his horn was cut off until it was cut off which also suggests that his liquification is nothing like suigetsus which happens regardless of his will.  In addition to this, if his liquification was truly as good as suigetsu's and instant, his horn would have turned into water after being cut off.



PDQ said:


> It engulfed his entire body and practically vaporized him and he survived.  And Bijuudama >>> FRS.  Hence Naruto trying to do Bijuu Rasengan after FRS failed on Sandaime Raikage.


but that's all irrelevant since the bijuudama merely passed through suigetsu and exploded a mile behind him.  Therefore Suigetsu only took the traveling damage of the bijuudama, not the explosion which holds the vast majority of the technique's power.



PDQ said:


> Not really, we've seen Hydrification basically changes the overall structure of the body, like Konan into paper.  We've seen even he can reform even when *splattered* by Juugo's punch.  That's far beyond the limits of any healing.


in order for Kabuto to mold chakra, he must have a chakra network.  Hydrification is a technique which requires chakra and thus it requires a chakra network in order for the cells to actively use it.


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## Negrito (Apr 2, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Not really, we've seen Hydrification basically changes the overall structure of the body, like Konan into paper.  We've seen even he can reform even when *splattered* by Juugo's punch.  That's far beyond the limits of any healing.



Yes really. The Hydriffication jutsu still uses chakra and it doesn't magically make the chakra network or the chakra tubes in each individual cell disappear. Suigetsu can come back together because those "splattered" parts are still brimming with his chakra and his chakra network isn't destroyed. Once he has no way to mold chakra how do you think he will be able to reform himself?

Konan will meet the same fate if hit with F:RS. She is a human using a jutsu with chakra to take on the properties of paper. Her cells are still there, so is her chakra network and her chakra tubes from each individual cell.

Suigetsu doesn't "heal", he reforms himself with his jutsu. Or do you think that if Suigetsu takes damage from an attack, then liquifies and reforms the damage will magically disappear?



Bonly said:


> 3) As for multiple guided FRS, thats unlikely to happen as Naruto barely uses many clones while fighting just one person more times then not. I doubt he'll make many and have many of them use FRS for it to be a problem.



Why would this be an unlikely scenario or action for Naruto? Naruto's style of fighting is based on KBs. Naruto doesn't have to use "many" KBs 2-3 would be more then enough.




> In canon was Naruto ears ringing and making him feel pain? No it was not, so don't compare Naruto only being blinded by Fu's jutsu to the increased power of a sage jutsu which made EMS Sasuke lose focus and drop his Susanoo to imply Kabuto's jutsu won't be effective.



Whether the jutsu was increased by SM or not didn't really stop Itachi from using partial Susanoo. Naruto shouldn't by any means be hindered or stopped from making Chakra Arms and a Rasengan to destroy the orb or counter attack/defend.



> I'd assume the spikes would pierce him. Ueharakk please tell me that you are not referring to normal rock spikes instead of the sage jutsu which increases the power of all jutsu to implying yet again that one of Sage Mode Kabuto's jutsu will not be effective.



Well do you have any proof that jutsu doesn't only let Kabuto control the spikes? Or that they are made any more sharp, strong or better in any way from their previous state?


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## ueharakk (Apr 2, 2013)

Bonly said:


> 1) I never said that the healing abilities would help with damage done by FRS nor did I say nothing in Naruto arsenal can't harm Kabuto. I said most of Naruto's arsenal can't harm Kabuto and never said which jutsu would or would not do any damage.


okay.



Bonly said:


> 2) The FRS throw by KCM Naruto shouldn't be as fast as the one thrown by SM Naruto nor should it be too much for Kabuto to handle. Just read the spoiler for more info about it.



so basically to sum up the argument (and tell me if i missed any points):
Assertion: SM Naruto is more physically stronger than KCM Naruto

Evidence:
- SM Naruto rhino toss while KCM Naruto can't open the jaws of Roshi
- KCM Naruto got sent back by V1 Ei's punches
- KCM Naruto was struggling against Han's power

Assertion 2: Because SM Naruto is physically stronger than KCM NAruto, SM Naruto can throw an object with more velocity than KCM Naruto.

Well first off, I'll attack the evidence of the first assertion because I do not agree that SM Naruto is more physically stronger than KCM Naruto.

1) SM Naruto can toss bosses while KCM Naruto can't open the jaws of 4 tails.  
I don't understand how this means SM Naruto is physically stronger than SM Naruto.  
First off, if SM Naruto would have done any better, naruto would have just entered SM and opened Roshi's jaws.
Second, tailed beasts are far physically superior than normal boss summons.
Third, while the muscles of a jaw may not weigh as much as the animal, the amount of force they can exert can be exponentially heavier than the said animal.
Take an alligator for instance.  A normal human could probably toss around a 4 foot aligator if they grabbed it by the tail, yet it would take the strength of many to pry open the gator's mouth.

Next, KCM Naruto got punched back by Ei's V1 punches.  I don't see how this makes him physically weaker either.  Why would SM Naruto not get sent flying back as well if he is getting punched while trying to run passed Ei?  I can see him possibly repeating the rhino feat if Ei comes at him in V1, but that's not what was happening with KCM Naruto, it was naruto who was trying to advance therefore he had no opportunity to plant his feet.

Next Han overpowering KCM Naruto.  I also don't see why this is contradictory either.  That could just mean Han is a physical powerhouse himself.  The hit that he delivered to KCM Naruto is probably one of the most powerful physical blows a human-sized fighter has done to another.

Finally, Assertion 2) that because SM Naruto is physically stronger than KCM Naruto, his throwing speed would be greater.  I have no idea why this would be true.  Does an Olympic power-cleaner throw a faster baseball than an MLB starting pitcher?  Most likely not, yet obviously the power-clean competitor is probably far stronger.  It's the same thing with KCM Naruto vs SM Naruto, FRS is never stated or implied to be significantly heavy (base naruto can carry it and run after all) so SM Naruto having more physical strength is not going to be a significant factor.  On the other hand, KCM Naruto being the faster of the two would be a better case for throwing something that isn't heavy with more speed.  However since there's basically zero evidence on both sides of the table, I say they are for all intents and purposes equal in speed.  

Also I forgot to add the most important point: *kcm frs doesn't have to be as fast as his SM frs for him to land it on kabuto.*
why is that?  It's because I bring up guided FRS and its implicit feat of hitting sandaime raikage whom is faster than kabuto in order to support my stance that kabuto can't dodge multiples of those.  Thus even if he throws it significantly faster in SM, it's irrelevant to my argument.




Bonly said:


> 3) As for multiple guided FRS, thats unlikely to happen as Naruto barely uses many clones while fighting just one person more times then not. I doubt he'll make many and have many of them use FRS for it to be a problem.


I don't understand where this assertion that naruto barely uses many clones while fighting just one person comes from and even so, that would in no way mean that he does not use multiple clones on Kabuto as Naruto has never fought another sage mode user or someone who has anything resembling Kabuto's skillset, so the IC argument does not apply here.  

Throughout the entire war, he couldn't use clones because he had his chakra split over 13+ ways and that was after he spent an entire night and morning spamming the KCM cloak.  

If you are talking about KCM Naruto vs Obito, that was 4 vs 1 situation and he still used clones.  In addition to that, Naruto was still very low on KCM chakra as he was only seen able to re-enter the mode in chapter 592, and even then he was very conservative with it proven by shutting it off at any opportunity he had. 





Bonly said:


> He has many ways.


like.....



Bonly said:


> In canon was Naruto ears ringing and making him feel pain? No it was not, so don't compare Naruto only being blinded by Fu's jutsu to the increased power of a sage jutsu which made EMS Sasuke lose focus and drop his Susanoo to imply Kabuto's jutsu won't be effective.


Ears ringing and pain?  Naruto not only used chakra arms but made a rasengan with a chakra arm while grabbing lava.   And unlike Susanoo, chakra arms are generated by mere thought it's not something that he has to mold chakra in order to do.   
Would bee be incapable of using his partial transformed tentacles while in hakugeki?  I wouldn't think so.




Bonly said:


> I'd assume the spikes would pierce him. Ueharakk please tell me that you are not referring to normal rock spikes instead of the sage jutsu which increases the power of all jutsu to implying yet again that one of Sage Mode Kabuto's jutsu will not be effective.


Muki tensei only gives life to the cave, it in no way was stated or implied to make the cave more durable.  Yes, it's true that using sage chakra for a jutsu makes it far more powerful than one done with normal chakra, but that's irrelevant to muki tensei because kabuto isn't making the spikes, he's merely animating them and controlling them with his technique.  Now if we were to compare doton structure created by normal chakra to the same doton structure but created by sennin chakra, then you might have a case, however even then it's not necessarily true that the sennin doton will be more durable, it could just be way more massive.




Bonly said:


> Is this a trick question? Tayuya's genjutsu will put Naruto under for a second or two until Kurama gets him out thus he will be trapped for a duration of a few seconds. This is also assuming Kurama gets him out in a few seconds like Gyūki does because as we have seen in the past, just because your a perfect Jin doesn't mean you can't be under genjutsu for quite a while.


how is that a trick question?  I just explained how bee got snapped out of genjutsu so quickly he could block the shurikens that itachi threw BEFORE bee even realized he was in genjutsu.  Unlike itachi's genjutsu, tayuya's paralyzing one is not a tricking one, once you are in it, you know you are in it, and thus in no way will it be a few seconds.


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## Bonly (Apr 3, 2013)

Negrito said:


> Why would this be an unlikely scenario or action for Naruto? Naruto's style of fighting is based on KBs. Naruto doesn't have to use "many" KBs 2-3 would be more then enough.



You mean besides the fact that in canon Naruto doesn't use many clones at once let alone use multiple FRS at once against one person?




> Whether the jutsu was increased by SM or not didn't really stop Itachi from using partial Susanoo. Naruto shouldn't by any means be hindered or stopped from making Chakra Arms and a Rasengan to destroy the orb or counter attack/defend.



So what I got is that because Itachi was barely able to make Susanoo you assume Naruto should be able to destroy the orb which we have no proof that doing such an action will actually work.





> Well do you have any proof that jutsu doesn't only let Kabuto control the spikes? Or that they are made any more sharp, strong or better in any way from their previous state?



Not sure if serious or trolling.



ueharakk said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But their not equal in speed, unless you can provide some evidence that KCM is as physically strong as SM Naruto. Whether you think "Thus even if he throws it significantly faster in SM, it's irrelevant to my argument" doesn't matter as I already said Kabuto should be able to handle it. As you said in this post "I say they are for all intents and purposes equal in speed" so this was to show you how it isn't and due to it not being as fast Kabuto should be able to dodge it.



> I don't understand where this assertion that naruto barely uses many clones while fighting just one person comes from



I'd assume from reading the manga. Just like the assertion that Kakashi won't use Kamui to snipe someone's head right off the bat.



> and even so, that would in no way mean that he does not use multiple clones on Kabuto as Naruto has never fought another sage mode user or someone who has anything resembling Kabuto's skillset, so the IC argument does not apply here.



What do you view to be a persons "IC" state of mind?  



> Throughout the entire war, he couldn't use clones because he had his chakra split over 13+ ways and that was after he spent an entire night and morning spamming the KCM cloak.



And yet he had clones making clones and using chakra draining techs. So the whole "he couldn't use clones because he had his chakra split over 13+ ways" flies out the window.



> *If you are talking about KCM Naruto vs Obito*, that was 4 vs 1 situation and he still used clones.  In addition to that, Naruto was still very low on KCM chakra as he was only seen able to re-enter the mode in chapter 592, and even then he was very conservative with it proven by shutting it off at any opportunity he had.



No I was not.




> like.....



Read my posts.



> Ears ringing and pain?  Naruto not only used chakra arms but made a rasengan with a chakra arm while grabbing lava.   And unlike Susanoo, chakra arms are generated by mere thought it's not something that he has to mold chakra in order to do.


 
By any chance do you actually know the jutsu and its effectiveness fully or do you barely do and just read what I post? The body goes starts to go numb, they are blinded, ear's are being messed with to the point where Sasuke was distracted and couldn't maintain Susanoo. When has Naruto been through this for you to to compare this to Fuu's blinding jutsu and say "welp he's dealt with being blind so he'll deal with this"?



> Would bee be incapable of using his partial transformed tentacles while in hakugeki?  I wouldn't think so.



Im not sure as well as your conclusion being baseless as nothing backs it up.



> Muki tensei only gives life to the cave, it in no way was stated or implied to make the cave more durable.  Yes, it's true that using sage chakra for a jutsu makes it far more powerful than one done with normal chakra, but that's irrelevant to muki tensei because kabuto isn't making the spikes, he's merely animating them and controlling them with his technique.  Now if we were to compare doton structure created by normal chakra to the same doton structure but created by sennin chakra, then you might have a case, however even then it's not necessarily true that the sennin doton will be more durable, it could just be way more massive.



So a jutsu that gives life to something and then controlling it and you think all he can do is stretch it?



> how is that a trick question?  I just explained how bee got snapped out of genjutsu so quickly he could block the shurikens that itachi threw BEFORE bee even realized he was in genjutsu.  Unlike itachi's genjutsu, tayuya's paralyzing one is not a tricking one, once you are in it, you know you are in it, and thus in no way will it be a few seconds.



How was it a trick question? You asked "How is tayuya's genjutsu trapping him for any duration of time" yet go on to mention someone else genjutsu breaking feat after they was already in a genjutsu for a second or two to imply Naruto will be the same. Thus asking how is her genjutsu trapping him for any duration of time while pointing out *he would be in the genjutsu* in order to break it points out to him being trapped for a very short duration of time makes the question redundant.


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## Negrito (Apr 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> You mean besides the fact that in canon Naruto doesn't use many clones at once let alone use multiple FRS at once against one person?



In canon Naruto does use KBs, a lot. I can find you more instances where he uses clones than you can find of him not using. When ever he doesn't use them is either because he can't (KSM after using too many) or is limited to a certain number (SM, making too much getting in the way of his KBs gathering natural chakra).

If Naruto isn't restricted somehow he will use KBs, it is part of his fighting style since day one. And again Naruto doesn't have to use a lot of clones 2-3 will be more than enough.




> So what I got is that because Itachi was barely able to make Susanoo you assume Naruto should be able to destroy the orb which we have no proof that doing such an action will actually work.




What you should of gotten was that Naruto has ways to counter said move. If Itachi, who wasn't protected by a chakra cloak, could activate Susanoo then Naruto can definitely use his chakra arms for attack or defense. Unless you have absolute proof of Naruto not being able to. Why wouldn't a Rasengan destroy the orb? What's so durable about it?



> Not sure if serious or trolling.



Trolling? Is that what you turn to when you can't come up with evidence supporting your statement?

Where is the proof? As far was we know and the manga has shown us, Kabuto just gives life to inanimate objects. Unless you have proof of the spikes getting any type of strength or endurance boost, just drop this point.




> I'd assume from reading the manga. Just like the assertion that Kakashi won't use Kamui to snipe someone's head right off the bat.



You're being very selective on your reading. It is more of an IC action for Naruto to use KBs than it is for Kakashi to use Kamui. The manga proves this.




> And yet he had clones making clones and using chakra draining techs. So the whole "he couldn't use clones because he had his chakra split over 13+ ways" flies out the window.



Naruto's KBs making clones and using whatever jutsu is due the amount of chakra Naruto invested in each of them. Naruto himself didn't have enough to make anymore KBs that's a fact. And even when he knew that he was still thinking of making KBs as diversions, that's how much of an IC action it is for Naruto to use KB.





> By any chance do you actually know the jutsu and its effectiveness fully or do you barely do and just read what I post? The body goes starts to go numb, they are blinded, ear's are being messed with to the point where Sasuke was distracted and couldn't maintain Susanoo. When has Naruto been through this for you to to compare this to Fuu's blinding jutsu and say "welp he's dealt with being blind so he'll deal with this"?



Whether Naruto has gone through the same scenario or not doesn't change the fact that Naruto can counter this jutsu. His chakra arms don't need any of the effected areas to work and function. Naruto has a chakra cloak protecting him so at the very least the numbing effect will be less severe. 



> Im not sure as well as your conclusion being baseless as nothing backs it up.



What would stop Bee from using his partial transformation? There isn't any evidence of such, as a matter of fact is is evidence against it in what Itachi did.



> So a jutsu that gives life to something and then controlling it and you think all he can do is stretch it?



Do you have proof of it doing anything more?


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## ueharakk (Apr 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> But their not equal in speed, unless you can provide some evidence that KCM is as physically strong as SM Naruto. Whether you think "Thus even if he throws it significantly faster in SM, it's irrelevant to my argument" doesn't matter as I already said Kabuto should be able to handle it. As you said in this post "I say they are for all intents and purposes equal in speed" so this was to show you how it isn't and due to it not being as fast Kabuto should be able to dodge it.


Bonly, it's like you didn't even read my post, you are basically restating assertions that I have knocked down in the post you have quoted.

Assertion 1) SM FRS is faster than KCM FRS if SM Naruto is physically stronger than KCM NAruto:
I already showed you that none of the arguments you've used to show that SM NAruto is stronger hold water, and I've shown you that the very logic of your assertion is fallacious as a physically stronger person does not mean he can throw something faster than a physically weaker person.  Example was the major league pitcher vs olympic weight lifter.  If you ignore my argument and just restate an assertion, it's a concession on your part.  If you feel so strongly about your point that you want to agree to disagree then that's another issue, however if you just ignore my points and post stuff that I've directly addressed then by rules of debate it's a tacit concession of those points.

Assertion 2) Kabuto should be able to handle FRS if it is thrown significantly slower than a SM FRS
Here you basically just assert this point without providing any evidence, while I on the other hand have shown you that KCM FRS being slower than SM FRS is irrelevant, as someone who is even faster than SM Kabuto can't dodge 1 of them, thus Kabuto would not be able to dodge multiples of them.  So a SM FRS could be infinintely faster than a KCM FRS, and it still would not change anything as Sandaime raikage still could not dodge a guided KCM FRS.




Bonly said:


> I'd assume from reading the manga. Just like the assertion that Kakashi won't use Kamui to snipe someone's head right off the bat.


show me an example that leads you to that conclusion from the manga then.



Bonly said:


> What do you view to be a persons "IC" state of mind?


in character against a particular foes moveset, danger level and having intent to kill.



Bonly said:


> And yet he had clones making clones and using chakra draining techs. So the whole "he couldn't use clones because he had his chakra split over 13+ ways" flies out the window.


Are you serious bro?  I'm really surprised at the level of your arguments on this thread.  What's the difference between the clones who make clones and the real?  The clones who make clones are making only BASE clones, I am arguing the real KCM Naruto makes KCM clones, and the author gave us explicit proof of what will happen if the real tries to make a clone to aid him after he had his chakra split 13+ ways.   Whether it be the hachibi's explanation, Kurama telling Naruto he's squandering his chakra by just holding up the cloak,  the link i gave about naruto trying to make a clone, the fact that one of naruto's clones explicitly states that he can't use kagebunshins while in that mode, or that naruto is so drained of KCM chakra when he enters the neo pain fight that he loses the mode halfway through despite only using normal rasengans and chakra arms, the author has told us many times throughout the war arc why Naruto can't use clones in KCM, and Naruto isn't super drained of KCM chakra, we see that he's even willing to use clones while not even in a real fight.

So in no way does the assertion that he can't use clones because he had his chakra split fly out the window.



Bonly said:


> Read my posts.


I have responded to all of your points in this thread so far and thus if you have said something, I have already answered it.




Bonly said:


> By any chance do you actually know the jutsu and its effectiveness fully or do you barely do and just read what I post? The body goes starts to go numb, they are blinded, ear's are being messed with to the point where Sasuke was distracted and couldn't maintain Susanoo. When has Naruto been through this for you to to compare this to Fuu's blinding jutsu and say "welp he's dealt with being blind so he'll deal with this"?


Another post that just surprises me coming from someone like you.  Not only have I addressed the fact that the body going numb, naruto being blinded and ears being messed up is irrelevant to naruto's ability to fend off kabuto due to his sensing, but also it's irrelevant to Naruto being able to use chakra arms since unlike an actual jutsu, they are activated by mere thought and thus he would not fall into the same problem as Sasuke who couldn't maintain susanoo because it requires him to mold chakra like any other technique.  Finally, you completely ignored the fact that I gave you an example of naruto not only being able to use a chakra arm but also make a rasengan with that chakra arm while holding lava.




Bonly said:


> Im not sure as well as your conclusion being baseless as nothing backs it up.


how does hakugeki paralyze?  By making bones rattle correct?  how would that affect tentacles which have no bones?



Bonly said:


> So a jutsu that gives life to something and then controlling it and you think all he can do is stretch it?


That's not what I said, I said that giving life to it and controlling it does not change it's physical properties.  He's merely animating a construct made of natural minerals, that's completely different from creating that same construct with sage chakra.



Bonly said:


> How was it a trick question? You asked "How is tayuya's genjutsu trapping him for any duration of time" yet go on to mention someone else genjutsu breaking feat after they was already in a genjutsu for a second or two to imply Naruto will be the same. Thus asking how is her genjutsu trapping him for any duration of time while pointing out *he would be in the genjutsu* in order to break it points out to him being trapped for a very short duration of time makes the question redundant.


When I said "for any duration of time" I don't mean litterally 0 time in the genjutsu, I mean that the time will be so insignificant that for all intents and purposes, its no time.  I see no reason why bee's genjutsu breaking feat would not apply to naruto as they are both perfect jinks and their bijuu break them out the same way: via partner method.  Kurama has shown even better chakra controlling abilities than the hachibi so you can't use the "he might not be skilled enough" argument.   
And thus since bee's feats apply to naruto in the genjutsu breaking department, after he realized he was in one, bee was able to break the genjutsu so quickly that he could pull out his swords and deflect itachi's shuriken despite only noticing he was in the genjutsu after the shuriken were thrown.  

Now remember that your initial stance was that it paralyzes naruto for "1 or 2 seconds" yet that is false as FRS can multiple kilometers in just 1 second and once bee can snap out of it before Itachi's shuriken can cross 1 to 2 meters.  So given that timeframe for breaking out, I see no way that tayuya's genjutsu will be advantageous to kabuto at all in this fight.


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## Rosencrantz (Apr 3, 2013)

A potential 13+ FRS's? Kabuto can't survive that. They both can deal with the other's attacks but it comes down to can Naruto put him down. And this comes down to how well you know jutsu mechanics. FRS should screw your whole chakra system so he can't heal. Kabuto should lose. And if he survives one, do people honestly think he can survive even 1/4 of the next 12 FRSs? Just 3? His regenerative capabilities have not been shown to be good enough to do that.


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