# Which characters can escape Yomi Numa?



## Itachі (Jan 12, 2016)

Assume that Jiraiya has already activated Yomi Numa and that the sinking has begun.


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## Matty (Jan 12, 2016)

If there was a character who didn't need to breathe and had some sort of wings to propel him through  

I think most mid-high Kate level people can escape. I think it's better for boss summons than actual people


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 12, 2016)

All characters who aren't significantly weaker than Jiraiya.
So most high end jounins and all Kage level ninja.


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## Zef (Jan 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> All characters who aren't significantly weaker than Jiraiya.
> So most high end jounins and all Kage level ninja.



Pretty much this.


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## Duhul10 (Jan 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> All characters who aren't significantly weaker than Jiraiya.
> So most high end jounins and all Kage level ninja.



Too bad Pain did not 
I would say that only those who've got things like hiraishin, powerful and fast raitons, phasing, those who have big summons might do it, preta path for obvious reasons, deva path for obvious reasons, ohnoki and muu for obvious reasons, God tiers definetly.
That is all.


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2016)

ST users with zero difficulty 
PS susanoo users
Susanoo users
Orochimaru 
Raiton users 
Preta path , deva 
byakugan users 
onoki 
Muu

Too many people really


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 12, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> Too bad Pain did not


Human realm isn't a high end jounin or kage level tho.
And if we are talking about Pain as a whole, Animal realm could have summoned him back anytime he wanted. He was in no real danger.


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## Veracity (Jan 12, 2016)

-Jin's
-Raikages
- Sussano users 
- proficient raiton users 
- St users 
- any sannin member. Tsuande walks out and oro boss summons underneath himself. - Hashirama because he is hashirama.
- Gates users( activation might disperse the mud)
- Any God tier.
- Jinton users
- Deva, Asura, and Preta.


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## fyhb (Jan 12, 2016)

It's time to agree that Pain's three bodies were not that strong.


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## Duhul10 (Jan 12, 2016)

Foiled said:


> It's time to agree that Pain's three bodies were not that strong.



They would mop the floor with most mid kages though. Individually all those 3 are kage level. 
Human path: - exceptional reflexes
                     - great strength
                     - great speed
                     - one shoting ability

Animal path: - great hand seals speed
                     - great reactions speed
                     - chameleon 
                     - Cerberus + other hax summons with shared vision

Preta path: - really hax ability which makes ninjutsu utterly useless
                   - good reactions
                   - great strength

Preta may be the only one to not reach the border of kage level, but I think he is elite jonin for sure.
All the three of them have great endurance
As a group, shared vision makes blindsiding them sort of a dream.


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2016)

The 3 paths are that strong though

They should not be underestimated most would not do any better than jiriaya 

I think below hashirama level , BM Naruto and all that the 3 paths should be able to win 

You will need some specific advantage against them to pull it off


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 12, 2016)

>*Ei* (Raiton & Physical strength allocate the ability to move through the swamp or to it simply not activating directly underneath him). 
>*Ei's pop* (same thing)
>*Kisame* (Sub Voyage and ape strength allows him to freely move through it, might be able to manipulate the swamp if it contains enough liquid properties to use that shark bullet that surrounded him and allowed him to move through the water when he escaped Gai & company initially)
>*Gai* (entering the 7th Gate pushes the swamp away from him temporarily, allowing him to release Afternoon Tiger or Morning Peacock to create a clear cut hole protruding to the surface, he summons the turtle and follows through that hole with the same leap that he used to cross the turtle island nigh instantly)
>*Obito* (He's shown moving through matter somehow with his Kamui, not sure how, but he's mastered the ability to pop up from underneath opponents while completely phased. Teleporation obviously the easiest escape option. And Izanagi to suffocate and reappear out of the swamp.)
>*Danzo* (Izanagi to suffocate and reappear out of the swamp)
>*Naruto* (Bijuu Mode allows him to use his burst speed and strength of the avatar to climb out of the swamp or simply roar it off, then leap out)
>*Orochimaru* (Snake Burrowing Technique & Leech All Creation allow him to move freely through the swamp, transforming into Hydra may expel some of the swamp and it may simply allow one of the snake heads to protrude above the surface where he can leech out of)
>*Kabuto* (Can also use snake burrowing, or release snakes from his body to stretch completely out of the swamp and simply travel through them as he did in the cave to escape, along with partially liquefying his body to allow him to more easily move through it, Hiding like a mole technique)
>*Suigetsu* (liquid body most likely can merge with the swamp to escape to the surface)
>*Mangetsu* (same thing)
>*Gengetsu* (Oil-like body might allow him to move through the swamp, not sure if Joki Boy's explosion would affect him but that'd work to expel the swamp away from him and he could attempt to leap out, though I'm not sure if the explosion near him would kill him, from what I remember it seemed like he released a steam explosion from himself by immediately summoning the clone)
>*Minato* (warps to Konoha, might have a marker on surface)
>*EMS+ Sasuke* (legged V3 Susano can wrestle it's way out, it's a closed Susano due to legs so where the Susano moves, he will)
>*EMS+ Madara* (same thing, although merely manifesting PS would laugh off the swamp and raise him several kilometers above the surface in the mech's head)
>*Kakashi* (warps himself into box dimension, then back to a safe surface above, or uses Hiding like a mole technique to possibly move through the swamp)
>*Kaguya* (merely changes the dimension, or just flies out of it with her physical strength and graceful 360 degree free movement due to flight, or just releases budda fists or that air push that sent naruto clones flying to expel the swamp which don't require hand seals, then flies out)
>*Jubito* (uses Gudodama to push the swamp away as he did against the amaterasu/FRS attack, sends an exploding truthseeker out to explode while protecting himself destroying part of the swamp, expels the swamp with Juubi chakra arms or just straight up partially transforms into a Juubi escaping the swamp)
>*Judara* (essentially the same thing)
>*Tobirama* (I'm sure he had pre marked locations when alive, may have a marked surface above prior to being sunk)
>*Nagato* (360 degree CST would expel the swamp fully likely killing Jiraiya in the process, Preta Path doesn't seem like it would work logically because I can't see how he'd suck a swamp up, it's more likely it just drains the chakra from the swamp that's touching him currently reverting it back to whatever the surrounding matter was prior to it's transformation (underground rock usually) which doesn't help him)
>*Killer Bee, Utakata, Roshi, blah blah blah any perfect jin* (bijuu transformation alone would expel some of the swamp, maybe not to let them escape initially but give them less to wrestle out of, mini bijuudama while under would also expel the swamp way away and do minimum damage to the avatar, 3 tails and 8 tails can spin so that might help to expel it)
>*Kushina/Karin* (chains *might* be able to travel through the swamp to the top and grapple hold of something on the surface to pull them out)
>*Kakuzu* (might be able to release his hearts and blast a couple elemental techniques while he has Domu active protecting himself to expel some of the swamp, might destroy some of the hearts and possibly damage Kakuzu obviously as they'll be blasting right into their own faces and right near Kakuzu with the swamp constricting them, but it's worth it if Kakuzu can get enough room to possibly escape by either leaping through a hole they can create to the surface or allowing him to move for a second to propel his threads to the surface and possibly pull him out through the swamp, or to leap and chain Domu punch the swamp several times trying to bull through the top of the swamp while standing on a flying heart until he gets a hole before the horizontal part of the swamp splashes back inward and traps him again)
>*Choji/Choza*: Merely expanding would expel some of the swamp, possibly enough to escape altogether, but if not their size and muscle increase would allocate them swimming or wrestling their way out once initial expansion began.
>*Jugo* (If he can transform into CS2 while under there he can release some chakra cannons all around him to expel some of the swamp, giving him some room to propel himself up with another arm cannon behind him and then stream fire cannons in front of him to try and blast his way through the swamp to the surface)
>*Kimimaro* (Bracken Dance, as displayed against Gaara's Sand Funeral) 
>*Shikamaru* (Might be able to get out with his shadow by wrapping himself in it like a rope, then extending it upward to the surface to  grab hold of a tree or building and pull himself out. It's a shot in the dark, but a possibility. His tendril shadows act like physical extensions of his body)
>*Neji/Hiashi* (possibly depending upon whether or not they can body blow to create enough room around their entire body to begin spinning with Kaiten, they'll need to sustain the Kaiten for an extended period to allow the chakra to build and build under the swamp like a force wave blowing the air that has no where to escape as it's under water, but up, pushing the swamp along with it, and it can possibly create an opening for them to leap out. If given enough room with the initial body blow Hiashi can possibly escape by merely chain gunning air palms assuming he can fire one from each palm every second)

All I can think of right now


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2016)

as for non PS susanoo users, if they create susanoo behind them after they are caught, cant the susanoo simply grab on to them and yank them out 

Food for thought there

I don't see how shikamaru shadow is a more likely candidate than that


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 12, 2016)

Everything I posted was when the person was already 100m or so deep under the swamp

A Susano 100m under the swamp with a hole in the bottom isn't pulling anyone out, it needs to be closed with legs with the swamp outside of it for the user to move where the Susano will be moving.


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## LostSelf (Jan 12, 2016)

Nagato can levitate his way out. If he uses ST before.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jan 12, 2016)

deva path users
mokuton users
Susanoo users
Orochimaru 
jin'ton users
only lightning armor users, not rai'ton users
kaiten users
jinchurikis
juugo
obito only, not kakashi
Kimimaro

...and no sui'ton of any kind is getting out of yomi numa


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 12, 2016)

Tsunade likely breaks free if sheer force can break through the pressure underground much like what Kimimaro did against Gaara's Sand.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Everything I posted was when the person was already 100m or so deep under the swamp
> 
> A Susano 100m under the swamp with a hole in the bottom isn't pulling anyone out, it needs to be closed with legs with the swamp outside of it for the user to move where the Susano will be moving.





So shikamaru can extend his shadow 100m when he is buried

You sir are just confused

Exactly what you wrote for shikamaru . Explain again in your fan fic mind why that can't be done 

If u actually managed to think , you would know susanoo can be cast away from the user . So it's not around the user here but out of YN AoE and it can simply reach down and grab him

Then again YN is mostly baseless hype as it has yet to burry anyone 2M deep 

Hilarious how shikamaru shadow gets him out of it though.

From asuma level and below unless you have some special skill , you will fall to it . Above that , the jutsu would be a stall tactic at best 

Trapping one pein in a feint ain't all that . Considering that pein sever jutsu limitation


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 13, 2016)

Weakened swamp submerged vertical parts of a colossal snake, Jiraiya called it "small" and was surprised it didn't sink the snake outright, then he deemed it result contingent upon the fact he was drugged.

Full powered variant in my opinion in low estimations should easily be 100m deep. In SM, where natural energy is enhancing the technique, it should likely be even deeper than that with more powerful suction. 

Shikamaru, and many of the people on the list I provided had the possibility to escape, it's not a certainty, in fact I find it unlikely he does escape with shadows, but I put him on there because it is a possibility. The swamp, however, is a giant shadow, so it's not like he's stretching his shadow 100m in an open courtyard absent natural shadows, he's part of a massive shadow that is the swamp. 

What is certain, however, is Sasuke/Itachi/MS Madara aren't escaping with non-legged Susano. It is physically impossible. It's not a mecha that moves by itself (no legs), and it has a hole in the bottom, meaning the swamp will be inside that hole, still constricting and holding Sasuke in place whether MS Susano is activated or not, so he can't even use the arms to try and climb out, because Sasuke won't move with the Susano.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2016)

The swamp has a shadow ??? 

Oh really 

So when submerged how does he join his shadow to the swamps apparent unseen shadow


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

Well if he isn't submerged with his hands in the seal he can't do it, you're right. 

But yeah, it has a shadow, because it's big ass dark swamp with virtually no light underneath. 

I'll have to take him off the list.


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## Turrin (Jan 15, 2016)

I think the opening needs to state what level of Yomi Numa are we talking about. Yomi Numa's Size/depth is dependent on the amount of chakra put into it, which is why the swamp could be made small for Human Path, but much larger against the Snake Summon. Also part of the swamp's suction has to do with the adhesive chakra infused in the mud, so more adhesive chakra is going to make the swamp more difficult to escape.

So basically what i'm saying is, are we talking about a swamp like what Jiraiya used when drugged or are we talking about literally thee largest/deepest/most adhesive swamp Jiraiya can create  or the SM Version of that.

As this will greatly effect my answer.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Well if he isn't submerged with his hands in the seal he can't do it, you're right.
> 
> But yeah, it has a shadow, because it's big ass dark swamp with virtually no light underneath.
> 
> I'll have to take him off the list.



So this is if he isn't submerged 

So if a susanoo user isn't submerged and we know they can create susanoo behind them 

What stops susanoo from plucking them out ???

Odd how when u want YN is slow enough to let Shika get away but too fast for most people 



Ok good boy 

Nothing further


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I think the opening needs to state what level of Yomi Numa are we talking about. Yomi Numa's Size/depth is dependent on the amount of chakra put into it, which is why the swamp could be made small for Human Path, but much larger against the Snake Summon. Also part of the swamp's suction has to do with the adhesive chakra infused in the mud, so more adhesive chakra is going to make the swamp more difficult to escape.
> 
> So basically what i'm saying is, are we talking about a swamp like what Jiraiya used when drugged or are we talking about literally thee largest/deepest/most adhesive swamp Jiraiya can create  or the SM Version of that.
> 
> As this will greatly effect my answer.



This largest deepest swamp would be subject to massive bais though 

There is an obvious limit to how big or deep it can get 

Same way rasengan can only b so big despite Naruto having all the chakra in the world 

Point is we don't know the limit and some people based on nothing would claim it can sink a village 

Though against a human target , would be fairly wasteful to make it the size of a boss summon to begin with 

That's like using a car to run over an ant


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So this is if he isn't submerged
> 
> So if a susanoo user isn't submerged and we know they can create susanoo behind them
> 
> ...


I admitted my fault in adding him to the list.

The others remain.

Don't call me a boy, old man.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> I admitted my fault in adding him to the list.
> 
> The others remain.
> 
> Don't call me a boy, old man.



ok little man, 

at least you have correct yourself

 I think all akatsuki in any case bar hidan can deal with YN

I maintain what I have always said jutsu used against fodder is no indication on how it would work against actual ninja

it never has

we got pre genin sasuke or genin sasuke knocking out a giant bear, yet his kick cant take out a 4th tier character like the mist brothers


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> ok little man,
> 
> at least you have correct yourself
> 
> ...


You have provided nothing that gives Sasori, Deidara and Konan the slightest chance of escaping.

The snake feat proved a severely weakened and small variant could submerge a several-story high snake who weights several tons, most of that being muscle, and temporarily stop it's high speed movement toward Jiraiya. 

A full powered variant sinking 180 pound stationary men who are a 1.5 meters tall sounds like it would go smoothly enough to me.

Now, you on the other hand, hate the technique for some reason, because you can't fathom a B-rank technique that was used only twice in the manga soloing Kage levels.

That's your problem. Take your conservative nonsense out of the thread. This is fiction, get on board with the supernatural feats.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> You have provided nothing that gives Sasori, Deidara and Konan the slightest chance of escaping.
> 
> The snake feat proved a severely weakened and small variant could submerge a several-story high snake who weights several tons, most of that being muscle, and temporarily stop it's high speed movement toward Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



deidara has doton just like kisame. its odd u think kisame can escape but not deidara

wait I thought u were smart enough to know konan can escape, she is bloody paper, she breaks herself into several sheets then reforms. COMMON MATE!!! that's a given. you know better, if anyone else I thought u would at least agree. since its painfully obvious

sasori, again will not be submerged before he can pull out a scroll and eject his heart canister which is all he needs to do to escape

or better yet, he is a bloody puppet, he forgoes his legs. summons a new puppet body and uses that one

I don't see how that's far fetched, he can reform himself when broken into pieces. So leaving his legs behind and then transferring to  new puppet body is very very logical 

I simply need you to show me scans of it soloing anyone. once u can do that ill agree

A full powered one used by SM jiraiya didn't instantly sink human path

jiraiya had no reason not to sink him.


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## Punished Kiba (Jan 15, 2016)

Is this that thing Jiraiya did to Itachi and Kisame in part 1?

Kiba can. All he has to do is spin


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## Saru (Jan 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> *or are we talking about literally thee largest/deepest/most adhesive swamp Jiraiya can create  or the SM Version of that.*




You mean something of a scale which Jiraiya's never used or shown? That introduces ridiculous levels of speculation and subjectivity. The strongest version (or at least the only that would be *IC*, which is all that matters as far as BD discussion goes) as far as we know was against Nagato's Human Path.


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## $Kakashi$ (Jan 15, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> A Susano 100m under the swamp with a hole in the bottom isn't pulling anyone out, it needs to be closed with legs with the swamp outside of it for the user to move where the Susano will be moving.



Not to mention there isn't a bottom to a non perfect Sasuno'o, so they'll still drown in the mud.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

$Kakashi$ said:


> Not to mention there isn't a bottom to a non perfect Sasuno'o, so they'll still drown in the mud.



Just like Madara drowned in the lava.

non perfect Sasuno'o
non perfect Sasuno'o
non perfect Sasuno'o


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

what I don't get is how this jutsu that isn't even described or shown to be instant and has minimal feats cant just be avoided. 

but people have the audacity to claim, amaterasu which has loads of speed feats and shit ton of hype can be simply handled

worst I heard is jiriaya uses odama rasengan to block LOS

so its fine to have such a far fetched idea to block something that has better speed feats and hype than YN?

yh I say everyone from asuma level upwards handles it

chouji expands

asuma uses futon, the force generated propels him out of it. (Danzo has shown something along the lines of what am describing)

hebi sasuke simply avoids it. or uses snakes hands and holds on to a tree, or flies, (the guy avoided a mine he stepped on) *the guy got 5 options at least *

all akatsuki bar hidan shit on it

all kage ninja ever shown shit on it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2016)

Its not instant. It turns the ground into a swamp, which is a process. It requires handseals. So it is a jutsu that you can totally see coming from a mile away.

Its pretty easy to avoid for sharingan users especially, as they will see the doton seals, see the chakra forming beneath their feet, and simply move away. 

If Yomi Numa was half as good as it is claimed to be in BD, Jiraiya would just walk up to Pain and use it as the first thing, rather than trying to conceal it and use it as a trap in conjunction with a multi layered strategy.

Its 2016 ffs. Lets move the fuck on.


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## Itachі (Jan 16, 2016)

Yomi Numa is a good technique but I do think that it's overrated, many people class it as a one-shot technique akin to the likes of Kamui & Amaterasu. That being said, it is an A-rank Jutsu and we do lack knowledge on it.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

Rank is about difficulty not power or hax 

See nikute vs raikiri


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## Yoko (Jan 16, 2016)

The power difference between Nukite and Raikiri could be due to the difference in users.  Kakashi's physical stature and 3.5 in strength obviously won't be as effective when dealing a physical blow compared to the power-house of a body the third Raikage had and the the 5 in strength that I'm sure he would have gotten if DB4 had stats.

Give the third Raikage Raikiri and I'm sure it'd be a heck of a lot more destructive than in the hands of Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

Yoko said:


> The power difference between Nukite and Raikiri could be due to the difference in users.  Kakashi's physical stature and 3.5 in strength obviously won't be as effective when dealing a physical blow compared to the power-house of a body the third Raikage had and the the 5 in strength that I'm sure he would have gotten if DB4 had stats.
> 
> Give the third Raikage Raikiri and I'm sure it'd be a heck of a lot more destructive than in the hands of Kakashi.



Ok if you say so

We can only go by what we have seen . Raikiri is kakashi jutsu and more difficult to learn than nikute 

Which is basically poking someone to death with a shroud you already have on

Much easier than using elemental and some spatial composition to form raikiri


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yomi Numa is a good technique but I do think that it's overrated, many people class it as a one-shot technique akin to the likes of Kamui & Amaterasu. That being said, it is an A-rank Jutsu and we do lack knowledge on it.


Yomi Numa is a one-shot technique, after all it did one shot a Large Snake Summon and Human-Realm. Actually that is more successful one-shots than ether Amaterasu or Kamui accomplished 

But in all seriousness, any Technique in the entire manga can one-shot someone depending on the enemy and the circumstance. Genin-Sasuke can one-shot fodder with a simple Grand Fire-Ball for instance. So what were instead talking about is how realistic it is for the technique's ability to One-Shot High Tiers. I honestly don't find it very realistic for Kamui or Amaterasu to one-shot any High-Tiers, because despite multiple characters possessing these abilities and utilizing them a huge number of times in the manga against high tiers, they never have successfully one-shot any of them. I mean at a certain point after Kakashi, Sasuke, Itachi have all failed numerous times to one-shot with Kamui/Amaterasu, I think it become impractical to expect them to be likely to outright win matches. And that's not to downgrade the techniques, because we've seen them be highly impactful in high-tier matches and do a-lot of damage offensively and even defensively, but there is a difference between that and them actually one-shotting someone. So to me those two techniques are highly overrated.

As far as Yomi Numa goes. Jiraiya went up against Pain and he did use it to one shot, but one shot on an individual level, not Pain in general; and Human Realm individually is not a High Tier, far from it in-fact.  So considering this I do not expect Yomi Numa to likely be One-shotting High Tiers , and bare in mind i'm willing to come to that conclusion after Jiraiya failed to one-shot with it a single enemy of that level he faced, let alone the myriad of examples in the case of Kamui and Amaterasu failing to one-shot. So people claiming a one-shot with it being likely, I find to be unrealistic as well. Though with that said Yomi Numa like Amaterasu and Kamui can be extremely impactful in a battle, and lead to a characters down fall when used in conjunction with other techniques. And in that sense I think Yomi Numa is underrated, as it's an extremely useful technique, considering the logical size, scope, and strength it can attain when Jiraiya uses it at max efficiency in Sennin Modo.

Basically Yomi Numa and Kamui/Amaterasu can defeat enemies or accomplish a-lot in a match, but I find it unrealistic (overrating them) to expect any of them to easily One-Shot a high tier by themselves.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yomi Numa is a one-shot technique, after all it did one shot a Large Snake Summon and Human-Realm. Actually that is more successful one-shots than ether Amaterasu or Kamui accomplished



lol :33



> But in all seriousness, any Technique in the entire manga can one-shot someone depending on the enemy and the circumstance. Genin-Sasuke can one-shot fodder with a simple Grand Fire-Ball for instance. So what were instead talking about is how realistic it is for the technique's ability to One-Shot High Tiers. I honestly don't find it very realistic for Kamui or Amaterasu to one-shot any High-Tiers, because despite multiple characters possessing these abilities and utilizing them a huge number of times in the manga against high tiers, they never have successfully one-shot any of them. I mean at a certain point after Kakashi, Sasuke, Itachi have all failed numerous times to one-shot with Kamui/Amaterasu, I think it become impractical to expect them to be likely to outright win matches. And that's not to downgrade the techniques, because we've seen them be highly impactful in high-tier matches and do a-lot of damage offensively and even defensively, but there is a difference between that and them actually one-shotting someone. So to me those two techniques are highly overrated.



I certainly find it more realistic for kamui or amaterasu to 1 shot a high level ninja considering their feats and hype. less so for YN. which you disagree with for some reason



> As far as Yomi Numa goes. Jiraiya went up against Pain and he did use it to one shot, but one shot on an individual level, not Pain in general; and Human Realm individually is not a High Tier, far from it in-fact.  So considering this I do not expect Yomi Numa to likely be One-shotting High Tiers , and bare in mind i'm willing to come to that conclusion after Jiraiya failed to one-shot with it a single enemy of that level he faced, let alone the myriad of examples in the case of Kamui and Amaterasu failing to one-shot. So people claiming a one-shot with it being likely, I find to be unrealistic as well. Though with that said Yomi Numa like Amaterasu and Kamui can be extremely impactful in a battle, and lead to a characters down fall when used in conjunction with other techniques. And in that sense I think Yomi Numa is underrated, as it's an extremely useful technique, considering the logical size, scope, and strength it can attain when Jiraiya uses it at max efficiency in Sennin Modo.



amaterasu/kamui used on human path would have taken it out. YN simply restrained it 



> Basically Yomi Numa and Kamui/Amaterasu can defeat enemies or accomplish a-lot in a match, but I find it unrealistic (overrating them) to expect any of them to easily One-Shot a high tier by themselves.


[/QUOTE]

yet for some reason YN is this bottomless bit that can suck anyone in instantly


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Basically Yomi Numa and Kamui/Amaterasu can defeat enemies or accomplish a-lot in a match, but I find it unrealistic (overrating them) to expect any of them to easily One-Shot a high tier by themselves.



You know you are delusional when you think Yomi Numa is a jutsu on Amaterasu or Kamui's ballpark.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You know you are delusional when you think Yomi Numa is a jutsu on Amaterasu or Kamui's ballpark.



Lol I second this 

Both Amaterasu and kamui have feats and hype to death which put them sooo far above YN it's hilarious 

YN is on the level of the sandwich mountain . 

One can see why it's dangerous however it wouldn't 1 shot high tier


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## Itachі (Jan 16, 2016)

Yomi Numa can one-shot in certain situations as Turrin said but I agree that Amaterasu and Kamui have much more potential to one-shot. 

I disagree with Turrin on one point though, I do think that Amaterasu and Kamui are effective one-shot techniques against many characters, it just hasn't really been shown.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

YN can't one shot the likes of chouji

To show you its level


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## Saru (Jan 16, 2016)

Anyone Jounin level or above who's actually relevant, honestly. It's not an OHKO move. Now if you want to say YN in tandem with other moves in Jiraiya's skillset are a deadly combination, that's different.

But it's nowhere near Kamui, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Chibaku Tensei, Bijuudama, etc... In other words, actual OHKO moves.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 16, 2016)

How do Asuma, Kurenai, Shizune, Anko, Genma, Raidō, Ibiki, Ebisu, Shibi, Fū, Torune, Shikaku, Inoichi, Hayate, Dan, Chōjuro, Ao, Zabuza, Fuguki, Jinpachi, Kushimaru, Jūzō, Jinin, Mangetsu, Kankuro, Temari, Baki, Pakura, C, Samui, Toroi, Dodai, Kurotsuchi, Akatsuchi, Kitsuchi, Gari, Suigetsu, etc. escape Yomi Numa?


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## Saru (Jan 16, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> How do Asuma, Kurenai, Shizune, Anko, Genma, Raidō, Ibiki, Ebisu, Shibi, Fū, Torune, Shikaku, Inoichi, Hayate, Dan, Chōjuro, Ao, Zabuza, Fuguki, Jinpachi, Kushimaru, Jūzō, Jinin, Mangetsu, Kankuro, Temari, Baki, Pakura, C, Samui, Toroi, Dodai, Kurotsuchi, Akatsuchi, Kitsuchi, Gari, Suigetsu, etc. escape Yomi Numa?





Saru said:


> *who's actually relevant*



Who's actually relevant?



FlamingRain said:


> How do *Asuma*, Kurenai, Shizune, Anko, Genma, Raidō, Ibiki, Ebisu, Shibi, Fū, Torune, Shikaku, Inoichi, Hayate, Dan, Chōjuro, Ao, *Zabuza*, Fuguki, Jinpachi, Kushimaru, Jūzō, Jinin, Mangetsu, Kankuro, Temari, Baki, Pakura, C, Samui, Toroi, Dodai, Kurotsuchi, Akatsuchi, Kitsuchi, Gari, *Suigetsu*, etc. escape Yomi Numa?




Asuma: Fuuton (debatable). Suigetsu: Hōzuki Clan's Suika no Jutsu. Zabuza sinks because it's Zabuza. None of these people have any business fighting Jiraiya, though.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 16, 2016)

How do Fūton and Suika no Jutsu help them at all?


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yomi Numa can one-shot in certain situations as Turrin said but I agree that Amaterasu and Kamui have much more potential to one-shot.


All i'm saying is 

Yomi Numa = 2 Usages / 2 One-Shots (Snake Summon and Human Realm)
Amaterasu = Tons of Usages / 1 One-Shot (Ceberous Summon)
Kamui = Tons of Usages / 0 One-Shots

Unless i'm missing some for Amaterasu & Kamui (which is possible), Yomi Numa's track record is much better than ether Kamui or Amaterasu. 



> I disagree with Turrin on one point though, I do think that Amaterasu and Kamui are effective one-shot techniques against many characters, it just hasn't really been shown.



That's the point, it hasn't ever worked that way despite users of those techniques fighting a wide array of high tier enemies. At what point are you willing to accept that it's simply not Kishimoto's intent for Jutsu on that level to 1-shot High Tiers?


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## Saru (Jan 16, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> How do Fūton and Suika no Jutsu help them at all?




Asuma could possibly expel himself from the swamp with the sheer force of his Fūton: Fūjin no Jutsu. It's a continuous stream of wind that is propelled with a force that should certainly exceed what sheer muscle strength could ever hope to do. Suigetsu can just merge with the swamp and slip out. A swamp is a swamp after all.


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## Rocky (Jan 16, 2016)

Turrin said:


> At what point are you willing to accept that it's simply not Kishimoto's intent for Jutsu on that level to 1-shot High Tiers?



What are you talking about...

Dust Release hasn't killed anything except for when it's super boosted by Tsunade, which doesn't reflect its normal capabilities. Can that not kill people now? If Kamui or Amaterasu land, they take down most characters. Given their speed, it is quite difficult to stop them from landing. Do the math.


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## Hand Banana (Jan 16, 2016)

TenTen can with reverse summon.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Rocky said:


> What are you talking about...
> 
> Dust Release hasn't killed anything except for when it's super boosted by Tsunade, which doesn't reflect its normal capabilities. Can that not kill people now? If Kamui or Amaterasu land, they take down most characters. Given their speed, it is quite difficult to stop them from landing.


The only high-tier battle where we have a Jinton user actually being able to use Jinton w/o being impeded by circumstance was against another Jinton user, where Jinton countered Jinton. So it's much harder to tell what Kishimoto's authorial intent is there. Even still, yeah I doubt a Jinton user is one-shotting many high-tiers, by just releasing a straight forward Jinton Beam at them. 



> Do the math.


Here's the math, Kamui/Amaterasu users have had countless opportunities to use it against high tiers, and zero one-shots have occurred.

Being able to kill or heavily injure a high-tier through a strategic utilization of Kamui or Amaterasu, is different than expecting a One-Shot. Same thing for Yomi Numa and probably the same thing for Jinton.


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## Rocky (Jan 17, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Being able to kill or heavily injure a high-tier through a strategic utilization of Kamui or Amaterasu, is different than expecting a One-Shot. Same thing for Yomi Numa and probably the same thing for Jinton.



Well, then I agree with you. Kamui & Amataratsu, along with Yomi Numa & Jinton, are only tools. Their effectiveness is going to depend on how they're used, but that goes for all techniques. Kamui & Amaterasu are still among the most dangerous tools in the manga, and they're used by some of the more intelligent characters too. 

I don't know what you mean by "one-shot," but if you mean just standing there and using it, then that's dependent on knowledge. If a character is expecting an attack to come, they're going to stand there and wait to see what it is so that they can respond accordingly. Then they'd suddenly be on fire/be warped away because the attack was unavoidable.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> How do Asuma, Kurenai, Shizune, Anko, Genma, Raidō, Ibiki, Ebisu, Shibi, Fū, Torune, Shikaku, Inoichi, Hayate, Dan, Chōjuro, Ao, Zabuza, Fuguki, Jinpachi, Kushimaru, Jūzō, Jinin, Mangetsu, Kankuro, Temari, Baki, Pakura, C, Samui, Toroi, Dodai, Kurotsuchi, Akatsuchi, Kitsuchi, Gari, Suigetsu, etc. escape Yomi Numa?



Asuma - uses futon . Force generated by blasting the floor pushes him out 

Kurenai - genjutsu jiriaya into cancelling the jutsu 

Anko- snake summon 


Shizune- dies 

The others we don't know their jutsu so unfair to say it works on them 

Torune - bugs eat chakra YN is harmless chakra the bugs eat that shit 

Dan- uses his ghost tech takes possession of jiriaya and cancels the technique . Same for any yamanaka 

Kitsuchi- uses Doton . The one fodder rock nin used on deidara and sasori

Temari- uses her summon . The wind carries her away from it . 

hope my answers help . 

YN is painfully overrated and pointlessly so


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Ps : all rock ninja can shit on YN 

It's best feat is restraining human realm . Who is very 1 dimensional and far less skilled than the people you mentioned 

Anyone can scale a jutsu based on bias you know 

Any b rank jutsu or A rank can 1 shot a fodder snake . It doesn't mean it would do much to an actual ninja

Amaterasu best feats- taking down hachibi , burning sasuke in half , burning toad stomach 

Kamui best feats - ripping gedo arm off , shitting on fuu and Torune, 

Those feats are still a lot better than taking out human path 

Unless the implication is Amaterasu and kamui can't take out human path regardless of how it is used . Which we know is obviously untrue 

YN cannot be compared even slightly to kamui and Amaterasu or Jinton which all have hype and feats  deserving of 1 shotting. 

YN does not


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Well, then I agree with you. Kamui & Amataratsu, along with Yomi Numa & Jinton, are only tools. Their effectiveness is going to depend on how they're used, but that goes for all techniques. Kamui & Amaterasu are still among the most dangerous tools in the manga, and they're used by some of the more intelligent characters too.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "one-shot," but if you mean just standing there and using it, then that's dependent on knowledge. If a character is expecting an attack to come, they're going to stand there and wait to see what it is so that they can respond accordingly. Then they'd suddenly be on fire/be warped away because the attack was unavoidable.


A one-shot is a character utilizing a technique while not in conjunction with other techniques in a straight forward to kill the enemy in "One-Shot". For example had Sasuke's Amaterasu on Hachibi or Ei been Successful, those would have been a "One-Shots", as they were straight forward usages of the technique while not in conjunction with any other techniques or larger strategy. As oppose to if Sasuke killed Ei by wrapping his Susano'o in Amaterasu flames and holding out with various Kagatsuchi and Susano'o variants until Ei was covered with Flames and burned himself to a crisp, that would not a One-shot; as it would a strategic usage of Amaterasu in conjunction with other techniques to defeat the enemy. 

Likewise if Kakashi had Kamui'd Deidara's head off, that would have been a One-Shot. But let's hypothetically say Kakashi's plan had Chouza/Chouji not arrived, was to hide with Doton, while Feinting with a Raiton KB, and once a Path hit the Bushin and was paralzyed then he was going to employ Kamui to damage or kill that path. Than that would not be a one-shot, as he'd be strategically utilizing Kamui in conjunction with other techniques.

What I'm basically saying is I find the NBD proposed scenario's off Itachi/Sasuke uses Amaterasu to lite X on Fire and that's GG, or Kakashi uses Kamui to Snipe someone's head off and that's GG; to be against authorial intent and unlikely to occur in any realistic match against High-Tiers.

I'm not however saying that the techniques lack the offensive might to literally kill an enemy in One blow, as most enemies can die from one well placed Kunai blow, so I think it's obvious vastly more powerful weapons like Kamui and Amaterasu, can kill an enemy in one blow, but that's not the common usage of One-Shot in the NBD, the common usage here, is that a character literally looses the match in One-Shot (I.E. again Kamui'ing someone's head off in One-Shot).


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

Most characters don't have counters to Kamui or Amaterasu, if they're hit by either then we can't just assume that the Jutsu's not going to work because the author doesn't want it to. What Kishimoto wants is not relevant, I don't think he'd want Yomi Numa soloing Kage levels either.


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

Characters with broken jutsu are either:


 Afflicted with conveniently timed plot-induced stupidity where they decide not to apply their jutsu to their [blatantly obvious] best usage
Consistently placed in conveniently tailored adverse situations that perfectly counter / mitigate the overpowered nature of aforementioned techniques.
You cannot gauge a jutsu's effectiveness solely by its track record.  Else, Raikiri is better than every Mangekyo technique by a long shot.


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## LostSelf (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Kurenai - genjutsu jiriaya into cancelling the jutsu



What the hell?


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Characters with broken jutsu are either:
> 
> 
> Afflicted with conveniently timed plot-induced stupidity where they decide not to apply their jutsu to their [blatantly obvious] best usage
> ...



This. We can't pretend like all Kage levels have a perfect counter to Amaterasu or Kamui.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

So if we going on about yomi Numa why not mountain sandwich which has far better feats 

Not hearing anyone saying that one shots high tier . Why should yomi Numa ?

For me it's wrong to base it on track record considering kishi won't have Amaterasu used on asuma for example . Would be over kill 

Notice everyone who it has been used against had an adequate defence for it 

Everyone who yomi Numa was used against were basically defenceless due to lack of skill or fodder level 

The people a jutsu is used against should tell u the level of the jutsu . 

As well as the hype the author gives the jutsu 

Hypeless jutsu , ain't doing much in a high level match


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Most characters don't have counters to Kamui or Amaterasu, if they're hit by either then we can't just assume that the Jutsu's not going to work because the author doesn't want it to. What Kishimoto wants is not relevant, I don't think he'd want Yomi Numa soloing Kage levels either.


Really because every character that has ever gone up against a one-shot attempt from ether Jutsu has had a counter or the Kamui/Amaterasu user has deemed the Jutsu unlikely enough to work to not even bother wasting chakra attempting a one-shot. 

The characters don't have a counter to the One-shot utilization of ether Jutsu excuse, is born from A)A Failure to acknowledge how the Jutsu work (I.E. the time it takes to build up chakra to ones eyes) and B)The fact that many of the characters poster point to lacking a counter have never gone up against a Jutsu like Kamui or Amaterasu, that would warrant a direct demonstration of a counter. For example if Hachibi never went up against Amaterasu. we'd have people in here saying if B goes full Hachibi he one-shot by Amaterasu, despite the fact that he did indeed have a counter to it. For that matter for years people have debated V1/V2-B against Amaterasu saying X counter may or may not work, well turns out V1/V2 can just toss Amaterasu aside and indeed V1/V2-B could have countered it w/ chakra shroud. Something we simply did not see until a Jinchuuriki limited to V1 chakra shroud went up against Amaterasu directly. 

Again there should come a point where regardless of whether a specific character has feats or not we acknowledge a One-shot scenario is unlikely given the characters level. I use unlikely, because there probably are a handful of high-tiers who are specifically ill suited to countering ether technique, and might still have a chance to be one-shot by it, but in general the fact that both Jutsu consistently fail to accomplish this one-shot time and time again should tell anyone being intellectually honest with themselves, that the Kamui GG or Amaterasu GG One-shot scenario is very unlikely



> Yoko said:
> 
> 
> > Characters with broken jutsu are either:
> ...


There is a difference between judging a Jutsu solely on it's track record and actually being willing to acknowledge it's track record, instead of ignoring it outright. Every time a poster comes into a thread and says Kakashi most likely Kamui's X's head off, they are outright ignoring it's track record of NEVER accomplishing that once against any High Tier, despite Kakashi having access to it in myriad of battles. Because given Kamui's track record, that is definitely not the most likely thing to occur in any Kakashi battle. 

As Far as Rarikiri goes, I can't recall any instance where a straight forward Rarikiri usage one-shot any high-tiers; correct me if i'm wrong. So I'm not sure how your coming up with that conclusion. Rarikiri has proved effective in battles when used in conjunction with other Jutsu and strategies, just like Kamui would be.

And claims of PIS really amount to posters wishing to try and ignore what's IC  and you can complain about tailored adverse situations the first 1 or 2 times these Jutsu fail to one-shot, but we are talking about tons of instance against tons of enemies in tons of circumstances, so that excuse feels a bit meh to me


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Hypeless is actually kind of true. Amaterasu, Kamui, Bijuudama, etc. (I could go on but I won't)... All have tons of hype statements in the manga. Yomi Numa has none.

That alone should tell you something about where it stands in Kishimoto's mind.


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

Yes, but one-shot techniques would make the battles even shittier. I don't think anyone would be one-shotted in the actual Manga but bullshit from the plot should be scrapped here. I agree with you that it wouldn't happen in the story but this is different. If techniques like Kamui and Amaterasu are considered unlikely to one-shot in your mind, Yomi Numa should have next to no chance. Yomi Numa can definitely one-shot some characters and Kamui/Amaterasu can one-shot more.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yes, but one-shot techniques would make the battles even shittier. I don't think anyone would be one-shotted in the actual Manga but bullshit from the plot should be scrapped here. I agree with you that it wouldn't happen in the story but this is different. If techniques like Kamui and Amaterasu are considered unlikely to one-shot in your mind, Yomi Numa should have next to no chance.



And here in lies the bias in some posters 

Because one will still claim YN GG 

A slower less effective less hype jutsu than Amaterasu yet yomi Numa is stretched out and over exaggerated by every single jiriaya fan ever on this forum


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## Duhul10 (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So if we going on about yomi Numa why not mountain sandwich which has far better feats
> 
> Not hearing anyone saying that one shots high tier . Why should yomi Numa ?
> 
> ...



Did you get fired or something because of that jutsu ? You are a Little too salty .
Like it or not , after seeing both animal path and human path, maybe The second strongest path in phisycal capabilities, getting trolled by a tiny yomi numa, which was used against gravity as well, I might say
That the Jutsu has the potential of dispatching A GOOD PART of the  kage levels. 
Used in a combination with something like FCD, would be even worse for the opponents


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> And here in lies the bias in some posters
> 
> Because one will still claim YN GG
> 
> A slower less effective less hype jutsu than Amaterasu yet yomi Numa is stretched out and over exaggerated by every single jiriaya fan ever on this forum



I haven't witnessed that actually. I'm a Jiraiya fan. 

I think that Yomi Numa is overrated but I haven't seen people saying that it's near the level of Kamui or Amaterasu. It's simply a technique that works in some situations and doesn't work in others, it's an effective technique but I don't think it's as good as some users make it out to be. I don't like to factor in hype too much either, if by theory Yomi Numa should one-shot some opponents then I'm not going to assume that an opponent isn't going to fall to Yomi Numa just because of their strength. It's like when people say "lol how can minato get caught in mere scrub-tier 3 tomoe genjutsu??".


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## Duhul10 (Jan 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I haven't witnessed that actually. I'm a Jiraiya fan.
> 
> I think that Yomi Numa is overrated but I haven't seen people saying that it's near the level of Kamui or Amaterasu. It's simply a technique that works in some situations and doesn't work in others, it's an effective technique but I don't think it's as good as some users make it out to be. I don't like to factor in hype too much either, if by theory Yomi Numa should one-shot some opponents then I'm not going to assume that an opponent isn't going to fall to Yomi Numa just because of their strength. It's like when people say "lol how can minato get caught in mere scrub-tier 3 tomoe genjutsu??".



Yomi numa is not on the tier of Ama and Kamui. But even then, it can be very dangerous because it is very fast I might say.


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I haven't witnessed that actually. I'm a Jiraiya fan.
> 
> I think that Yomi Numa is overrated but I haven't seen people saying that it's near the level of Kamui or Amaterasu. It's simply a technique that works in some situations and doesn't work in others, it's an effective technique but I don't think it's as good as some users make it out to be. I don't like to factor in hype too much either, if by theory Yomi Numa should one-shot some opponents then I'm not going to assume that an opponent isn't going to fall to Yomi Numa just because of their strength. It's like when people say "lol how can minato get caught in mere scrub-tier 3 tomoe genjutsu??".




People say Yomi Numa, GG all the time. 

Go look at the Jiraiya vs. Sasori thread. The "Yomi Numa, GG" responses started before the thread even got to its second page IIRC. The sheer amount of "Yomi Numa, GG" in the NBD tells me that people do in fact rate it on the same level of Kamui and Amaterasu.


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> Yomi numa is not on the tier of Ama and Kamui. But even then, it can be very dangerous because it is very fast I might say.



I don't think we know much about its speed, in Part 1 it wasn't very clear. I'll have to check J-Man's Yomi Numa usage against Pain.

I agree that it can dispatch a decent number of opponents though, it may not have a lot of hype but it should be able to do what its designed to do.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 17, 2016)

Summoning Katsuyu enables Tsunade to counter it if she ever does get trapped underground.


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

Saru said:


> People say Yomi Numa, GG all the time.
> 
> Go look at the Jiraiya vs. Sasori thread. The "Yomi Numa, GG" responses started before the thread even got to its second page IIRC. The sheer amount of "Yomi Numa, GG" in the NBD tells me that people do in fact rate it on the same level of Kamui and Amaterasu.



Don't get me wrong, I've seen Yomi Numa GG a hell of a lot but I don't recall seeing those same users downplaying Amaterasu/Kamui at the same time. "Yomi Numa GG" is actually a suitable answer sometimes.


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

Kamui failed numerous times against Obito, Minato, and twice against Gedo Mazo (thanks to space time jutsu on both occasions).  

Ignoring why it did not work and repeatedly emphasizing it failed and thus will not work against another high tier when the high tier in question lacks the counters that caused Kamui to fail in those previous situations is unsubstantiated.

Characters don't magically get the benefit of the doubt to counter jutsu they've never showed counter-measures for just because another character had a counter.  The only occasion a track record is worth anything is if the character we're talking about has comparable counters.  It's absolutely worthless at face value.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yes, but one-shot techniques would make the battles even shittier. I don't think anyone would be one-shotted in the actual Manga but bullshit from the plot should be scrapped here. I agree with you that it wouldn't happen in the story but this is different. x.




You can't divorce X-characters or X-abilities from the author's intent this way, when discussing what level a character is actually suppose to be on in the manga. I.E. You can't say Kakashi is > a Sannin because of Kamui GG, if author never intended Kamui GG to be a likely thing in the actual manga. As your belief on how effective Kamui should be is irrelevant in the face of how effective the author depicts Kamui to actually be. 

That's like saying Jiraiya touches Kakashi once and turns his ass into a Toad GG. Pretty sure the authorial intent behind that technique is not that Jiriaya can go around GG'ing any enemy with a single touch, but instead i'm going to focus on the fact that the technique is very hard to avoid and the limitations of it are extremely ill defined, and therefore make up my own claims about how effective it should be. 

Or alternatively, saying Hanzo take off his mask and Poison Breath GG's everyone at match start, ignoring the fact that the manga makes it pretty clear that the author's intent is for Hanzo to only utilize such a strategy as a triumph card he pulls when left with little to no other options rather than something he does at match start; and just ignoring that because I find it to be silly that he doesn't do it at match start and therefore claiming PIS

As far as Yomi Numa goes, I think we haven't seen what Jiriaya's Largest Senpo Swamp looks like so it's hard to evaluate that technique. The more apt comparison to Kamui and Amaterasu would be FCD. And Yeah I think FCD can One-Shot just as many characters (if not more) than Amaterasu/Kamui if we outright ignore authorial intent in the way your suggesting we do with Kamui/Amaterasu, and just look at it's most absurd feat (overpower 100% Kurama), ignore it's draw backs, and say Jiriaya starts the match immediately with it because fuck IC.


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Don't get me wrong, I've seen Yomi Numa GG a hell of a lot but I don't recall seeing those same users downplaying Amaterasu/Kamui at the same time. "Yomi Numa GG" is actually a suitable answer sometimes.




Those same users say Jiraiya can counter Amaterasu with Rasengan and Katon-sealing scroll, bruh.


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

The only reason Kamui was never "GG" against high tiers was because every high tier it went up against either had the other version of Kamui, had Hiraishin, or was saved by another high tier via ST jutsu.  Not every high tier has Kamui or Hiraishin-level space time jutsu, thus this transitive logic does not work at all.

The only time Kamui flat out failed was against Deidara, back when Kakashi explicitly stated he could not properly control the jutsu.  Even then, it still tore off Deidara's arm.


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

@Turrin

Dude, Kamui GG is certainly an answer. Kakashi can Kamui off Jiraiya's head, Kamui is the safest option against Orochimaru and Tsunade. Kamui works and that's all we need to know, characters aren't magically countering it because Kishi wouldn't like it. Obviously I'm not saying that characters with one-shot techniques will use such techniques right away but they can and will work. I don't think Kishimoto would want characters killing each other with Kunai or Katon either, but that sure could happen.


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

Saru said:


> Those same users say Jiraiya can counter Amaterasu with Rasengan and Katon-sealing scroll, bruh.



To be fair, Jiraiya could block Amaterasu via Cho Odama Rasengan. But it's unlikely to happen, I agree. 

Lol @ the Katon sealing scroll argument...


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Yoko said:


> The only reason Kamui was never "GG" against high tiers was because every high tier it went up against either had the other version of Kamui, had Hiraishin, or was saved by another high tier via ST jutsu.  Not every high tier has Kamui or Hiraishin-level space time jutsu, thus this transitive logic does not work at all.
> 
> The only time Kamui flat out failed was against Deidara, back when Kakashi explicitly stated he could not properly control the jutsu.  Even then, it still tore off Deidara's arm.


Kakashi went up against plenty of high tiers that did not have space-time; Deidara, Hidan, Kakuzu, Pain-Realms, 7SM, and various Jinchuuriki. None of which he Kamui GG'd. 

Some of which i'm being generous to even call high tiers.

-------------

Tearing off Deidara's arm doesn't mean anything  to the conversation as it was not a one-shot.


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

For someone going on and on about authorial intent, you're flat out ignoring what the author wrote - Kakashi could not control the jutsu against Deidara, and as I said, it still wounded him.  He never used Kamui in any of those other  situations, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it failed.


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi went up against plenty of high tiers that did not have space-time; Deidara, Hidan, Kakuzu, Pain-Realms, 7SM, and various Jinchuuriki. None of which he Kamui GG'd.
> 
> Some of which i'm being generous to even call high tiers.
> 
> ...




You completely missed Yoko's point. They're talking about when Kamui _was used_. As in, offensively. He didn't use it offensively against any of those opponents bar Deidara, which is what Yoko was addressing.

No one is saying that Kakashi one-shots everyone with Kamui off the bat. It's not IC.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> @Turrin
> 
> Dude, Kamui GG is certainly an answer. Kakashi can Kamui off Jiraiya's head, Kamui is the safest option against Orochimaru and Tsunade. Kamui works and that's all we need to know, characters aren't magically countering it because Kishi wouldn't like it. Obviously I'm not saying that characters with one-shot techniques will use such techniques right away but they can and will work.


They can and will work, yet have never worked in the entire history of the manga 

In all seriousness though, Yes they can work, but the fact that they haven't ever accomplished such in the entire manga, despite going up against tons of different enemies in tons of different scenario's should tell anyone being intellectually honest that it's unlikely to occur.

And i'm not saying characters counter it through magic, i'm saying the fact that this shit has never worked once in the manga, means that people are A)Overrating the technique due to a misunderstanding of how it works (I.E. not accounting for chakra build up to the eyes) and B)Should be considering the counters people suggest many of the High Tiers could use more seriously. Rather than ignoring Point A) and Point B), and just going Kakashi will Kamui Jiraiya's head off.



> I don't think Kishimoto would want characters killing each other with Kunai or Katon either, but that sure could happen.


Really, what High Tier is being killed by a straight forward Kunai or Grand Fire Ball? I'm waiting...


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

There is no misunderstanding about how Kamui works.  

It is an ocular space time jutsu that makes anything the user looks at disappear.  It was accurate enough to snipe BM Naruto from long distance in a literal hail of spears and fast enough to interrupt Gedo Mazo's summoning teleportation.  There are numerous other examples emphasizing its speed and accuracy. 

Saying it won't work on someone like Tsunade because she is a "Kage" and a "Sannin" by falling back on the fact that it never worked all the other times it was used makes no sense when Tsunade lacks every single quality that caused Kamui to fail in those previous attempts.


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

Turrin said:


> They can and will work, yet have never worked in the entire history of the manga
> 
> In all seriousness though, Yes they can work, but the fact that they haven't ever accomplished such in the entire manga, despite going up against tons of different enemies in tons of different scenario's should tell anyone being intellectually honest that it's unlikely to occur.
> 
> ...



Mate, it's fucking difficult to counter techniques like Amaterasu or Kamui. You can't just laugh them off because Amaterasu has shitty feats. We know that Kamui works, it's not a faulty Jutsu, it does what it's supposed to. I don't see what the problem is. Again, Kamui GG or Amaterasu GG isn't going to be very entertaining. In the Manga it's not going to happen but when plot bullshit is gone then it works. Obito could have wiped out 90% of the cast if he had actually put in his full effort but that wouldn't make for an enjoyable story, would it? There is no reason that Kamui shouldn't work on any of the Sannin, you're pretending like most Kage levels can effectively counter it when it's simply not the case. Do you think that Jiraiya could survive Hidan's curse Jutsu?  

Obviously they can be dodged but most characters are going to die if their throat is slit or if they're fried by a Katon.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Yoko said:


> For someone going on and on about authorial intent, you're flat out ignoring what the author wrote - Kakashi could not control the jutsu against Deidara, and as I said, it still wounded him.  He never used Kamui in any of those other  situations, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it failed.


Maybe you should read my posts. I wasn't talking about examples where it directly failed, I was talking about the fact that it has never happened period, despite it's user going up against a wide variety of enemies. Kakashi not choosing to use it, is just another example of why it's not a likely conclusion to matches involving Kakashi. 

As far as Deidara goes, I agree he's not the best example as Kakashi wasn't as skilled, but then again I don't consider a one-armed Deidara w/ little to no clay really all that high tier ether, so I feel it evens out, or perhaps even favors Kakashi's success, yet it still didn't work.


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2016)

If Kakashi used Kamui on a low tier like Deidara there's no reason he wouldn't use it on a high tier in that situation. Replace Deidara with Itachi and see what happens.


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

You're using examples where Kakashi could not control the jutsu properly (Deidara), examples where Kakashi was exhausted (Kakuzu, and Kakashi even said he could have one-shotted Kakuzu with Kamui anyway if Naruto didn't show up), and examples where Kakashi was trying to fight conservatively (Pain attacking the village and the initial parts of the War Arc).  There are reasons Kamui wasn't used in those previous examples, some more obvious than others.

  Kakashi's chakra improved in the War Arc.  We know how liberally he can use Kamui.  We also know the speed and accuracy with which he can use it.  Constantly using outdated examples to try and make a point doesn't make for strong supporting themes to your argument.

Sure sounded like you were talking about where it failed here:



> You can't say Kakashi is > a Sannin because of Kamui GG, if author never intended Kamui GG to be a likely thing in the actual manga. As your belief on how effective Kamui should be is irrelevant in the face of how effective the author depicts Kamui to actually be.




. . . and even then, this is wrong.  The author stated, through Kakashi, that Kamui being a OHKO technique is a "likely thing in the actual manga".


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Mate, it's fucking difficult to counter techniques like Amaterasu or Kamui. You can't just laugh them off because Amaterasu has shitty feats. We know that Kamui works, it's not a faulty Jutsu, it does what it's supposed to. I don't see what the problem is.
> 
> Obviously they can be dodged but most characters are going to die if their throat is slit or if they're fried by a Katon.


I'm not laughing them off, i'm saying High Tiers are unlikely too loose the match to a specific  utilization of them, I.E. the straight forward, lacking all strategy one-shot attempt that is argued as viable in the NBD despite never being shown to be viable in the entirety of the manga against High tiers.



> Again, Kamui GG or Amaterasu GG isn't going to be very entertaining. In the Manga it's not going to happen but when plot bullshit is gone then it works. Obito could have wiped out 90% of the cast if he had actually put in his full effort but that wouldn't make for an enjoyable story, would it?


I already explained this in a previous post:




> There is no reason that Kamui shouldn't work on any of the Sannin, you're pretending like most Kage levels can effectively counter it when it's simply not the case. Do you think that Jiraiya could survive Hidan's curse Jutsu?


Actually most Kages levels do have potential counters; even more so if they have knowledge of MS, Ama/Kamui, or Sensor Capabilities. 

If were talking Jiraiya specifically he has LOS Blocking Techniques, Feinting Techniques, Stealth Techniques, and Sensing. 

If were talking about Kakashi's Kamui in a more general sense, I think the problem with Kakashi's Kamui is not the technique itself, it's the fact that Kakashi is lacking some powerful defense against high tiers and will therefore not get an opening to use a straight forward one-shot Kamui in most battles and the the strain it physical puts on him makes using it all and especially multiple times risky, so he needs to be very sure it will work, before employing it. So Kakashi's Kamui is much better in team settings where others can cover for him while he focuses on utilizing it and cover for him when it physically weakens him. That's not to say he can't use it solo at all, but he needs to employ it very strategically, like he may have been trying to do against Pain w/ the Raiton KB Feint to stop a Path's movements ensuring his next blow landed.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Yoko said:


> You're using examples where Kakashi could not control the jutsu properly (Deidara), examples where Kakashi was exhausted (Kakuzu, and Kakashi even said he could have one-shotted Kakuzu with Kamui anyway if Naruto didn't show up), and examples where Kakashi was trying to fight conservatively (Pain attacking the village and the initial parts of the War Arc).  There are reasons Kamui wasn't used in those previous examples, some more obvious than others.


So basically your counter argument that Kamui hasn't one shotted someone is cause "reasons" lol.

To which I say, yeah, but those reasons are important and should be considered when talking about other matches. But when someone says Kakashi Kamui's X's head off are they considering those reasons, no they are not.

If Kakashi didn't use Kamui for so dam long against Kakuzu, he's probably not likely to attempt it soon against X. If he didn't use Kamui GG against Pain Realms or in the war, because of it's risks he isn't likely to use any time soon against Y. And so on. 

Whatever reasons you want to come up with, the end result remains the same Kamui One-Shot is not likely to be deciding fights against High tiers.



> Kakashi's chakra improved in the War Arc. We know how liberally he can use Kamui. We also know the speed and accuracy with which he can use it. Constantly using outdated examples to try and make a point doesn't make for strong supporting themes to your argument.


Kakashi could use it with the speed and accuracy to snipe a ridiculously fast moving nail out of the sky in the Pain Arc. And being able to use it 4-5 times instead of 2-3  shouldn't mean shit, if he only needs one usage to certainly Kamui GG the enemy. So that excuse is total BS.

Kakashi didn't use Kamui because he knew, more than your willing to accept, that high tiers weren't likely to be Kamui GG'd in One-shot. So instead being smart about it he took more tactical approaches and only used Kamui in situations out of desperation, or used Kamui in situations where he was more confident in it landing or characters were covering for him if it did not.



> . . . and even then, this is wrong. The author stated, through Kakashi, that Kamui being a OHKO technique is a "likely thing in the actual manga".


That's about Obito Negating Kamui outright, with the authorial intent there being to hint at Obito's Ocular Jutsu's connection to Kakashi's. Literally has nothing to do with what your trying to twist it into.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Point is tactically used or not yomi Numa best feat is soloing a 1 dimensional weak character 

Most jutsu tactically used would have dispatched that path 

So why does yomi Numa deserve any hype at all ?


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

Turrin said:


> So basically your counter argument that Kamui hasn't one shotted someone is cause "reasons" lol.



Feeble attempt to downgrade my argument.

My counter argument is that Kamui has not one-shotted anybody due to:


Kakashi not being experienced enough with the jutsu (Deidara).
Kakashi not having enough chakra (Kakuzu, as Kakashi already complained about stamina after four Raikiri).
Kakashi fighting conservatively (there were four other Pain bodies unaccounted for, and Kakashi was the strongest person in the village at the time, and a multi-day War Arc with wave after wave after wave of enemies).
Kakashi fighting other ST users (Obito who happened to have the other Kamui eye, or Madara summoning Gedo Mazo).

The first two are no longer relevant - Kakashi has the stamina and has the experience necessary to use the jutsu effectively.  The third is only relevant if match-up conditions are there that would make Kakashi fight hyper conservatively, which is rare.  If he only has one opponent as per most BD threads, he has no reason to conserve chakra to that extent.  The fourth is only relevant if he is up against an ST user.



> If Kakashi didn't use Kamui for so dam long against Kakuzu, he's probably not likely to attempt it soon against X.



"Although using four Raikiri and Sharingan is pushing it . . . "

Kakashi was already exhausted - he himself stated it.  Even one usage of Kamui at this point would be pushing it to this version of Kakashi, and that wouldn't be enough to take down Kakuzu with three hearts flying outside of his main body.  He'd effectively cripple himself and still have enemies on the field to attack his physically impaired, if not unconscious, body.  It wasn't an option until the remaining hearts were linked up with Kakuzu (giving him only one target), at which point he almost did use it.



> If he didn't use Kamui GG against Pain Realms or in the war, because of it's risks he isn't likely to use any time soon against Y.



There were four bodies unaccounted for.  Guy was out of the village, as was Naruto.  Kakashi was the strongest active fighter on the field.  As far as he knew, he was the only person that had a shot at leading the counter-attack against Pain and stopping him.  

Gassing himself out with aggressive Kamui usage isn't the smartest option in that scenario.  He didn't have War Arc stamina at this point.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 17, 2016)

Any water, lightning, or fire user or a skilled earth user should be able to escape the Jutsu. water lowers the viscosity of the swamp allowing the person to swim out. Lightning turns the swamp back into solid ground due to the heat and the person breaks out of the ground. a fire user can simply blast fire at the swamp till it solidifies and break out. A skilled earth user could raise the earth from beneath and make them rise out the swamp or create some sort of structure that can pull them out like a golem.

As for why a path didn't get out of the mud there are two possible reasons. It could've been that Both hands and feet were trapped in the mud so it couldn't do anything. Most likely the case plot I refuse to believe Nagato doesn't know any lightning, fire, water, or earth techniques, he was train ones by jiraiya, can master any Jutsu and has definitely soul ripped more than a few people. The reason he doesn't do any elemental Jutsu is because he would've been too overpowered for the main characters to beat.


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> As for why a path didn't get out of the mud there are two possible reasons. It could've been that Both hands and feet were trapped in the mud so it couldn't do anything. Most likely the case plot I refuse to believe Nagato doesn't know any lightning, fire, water, or earth techniques, he was train ones by jiraiya, can master any Jutsu and has definitely soul ripped more than a few people. The reason he doesn't do any elemental Jutsu is because he would've been too overpowered for the main characters to beat.




The Paths don't have Nagato's elemental abilities, though. Nagato can probably use a variety of elemental jutsu, but there's no indication Nagato's Human Path could. In fact, Nagato's willingness to sacrifice that Path and its lack of other abilities shown aside from soul rip suggest that the Human Path couldn't use any other jutsu (or at least any that would have been useful).


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

@Yoko

As I've already said, you can't use stamina and fighting conservatively as an excuse while at the same time arguing Kakashi could have won by One-Shotting with Kamui. Being conservative or not shouldn't have mattered if Kakashi only needed one shot. Kakashi would not have bothered exhausting himself against Kakuzu to the point where he need to be conservative, if he was confident that he could One-Shot Kakuzu w/ Kamui. He may have been one of the strongest individuals in the Pain-Arc, but he shouldn't have needed to worry about conserving chakra, if he was confident he could have One-Shot Deva and Asura w/ Kamui, as he clearly had enough for at least 2 Kamui and many other Jutsu. He should not have worried about chakra supplies in the war in general as he had access to a shit ton of medics. And so on. 

Your arguing out of two sides of your mouth and I don't find it to be a very fair stance.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 17, 2016)

Saru said:


> The Paths don't have Nagato's elemental abilities, though. Nagato can probably use a variety of elemental jutsu, but there's no indication Nagato's Human Path could. In fact, Nagato's willingness to sacrifice that Path and its lack of other abilities shown aside from soul rip suggest that the Human Path couldn't use any other jutsu (or at least any that would have been useful).



Yes they do the paths are Nagato, it's his chakra going through them. Nagato and the paths are one in the same, deva path used water Jutsu and summoned gedo mazo. Nagato sacrificed it because the paths had more valuable abilities. The paths can use any Jutsu Nagato can since they are him.


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> Yes they do the paths are Nagato, it's his chakra going through them. Nagato and the paths are one in the same, deva path used water Jutsu and summoned gedo mazo. Nagato sacrificed it because the paths had more valuable abilities. The paths can use any Jutsu Nagato can since they are him.




Uh, Deva Path never used Water Jutsu except in the anime. And that was because that Path could use Water Release in life (Yahiko). Jiraiya made a whole point of being confused as to why Nagato wasn't using jutsu. The explanation was that Nagato was using the Paths, which seem to prevent him from utilizing that ability of the Rinnegan. The Paths weren't shown to be capable of doing anything more than what they were able to do while living.


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Kakashi would not have bothered exhausting himself against Kakuzu to the point where he need to be conservative, if he was confident that he could One-Shot Kakuzu w/ Kamui.




If you read what I actually wrote, Kakuzu was a unique case where one-shot of Kamui wouldn't work because Kakuzu's hearts were outside of his body.  Kamui only became an option when his hearts melded with his body, and at that point Kakashi was about to use Kamui until Naruto arrived.



> He shouldn't have needed to worry about conserving chakra, if he was confident he could have One-Shot Deva and Asura w/ Kamui, as he clearly had enough for at least 2 Kamui and many other Jutsu.




He shouldn't worry about conserving chakra even if there were four other bodies destroying Konoha? That makes no sense.  You're ignoring the fact that one of those Kamui was the size of a pin and one was the size of an arm.  Those weren't big Kamui, and the second one ended up killing him so it'd hardly count.



> He should not have worried about chakra supplies in the war in general as he had access to a shit ton of medics. And so on.




So basically, he should have recklessly abused the technique that causes eventual blindness.  Kakashi should've  Kamui'd everything he encountered, including the enemies he could beat without it, like Zabuza, Kisame's master, and Haku so that by the time he got to Obito, Madara, and the Juubi (you know, the enemies he would actually _need_ to use Kamui against) his Sharingan eye would be completely blind.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 17, 2016)

Saru said:


> Uh, Deva Path never used Water Jutsu except in the anime. And that was because that Path could use Water Release in life (Yahiko). Jiraiya made a whole point of being confused as to why Nagato wasn't using jutsu. The explanation was that Nagato was using the Paths, which seem to prevent him from utilizing that ability of the Rinnegan. The Paths weren't shown to be capable of doing anything more than what they were able to do while living.



I was wrong Rain Tiger at Will technique is not a water jutsu but it shows the paths can do anything nagato can do.

 Paths path are powered by nagatos chakra rods. Nagatos chakra are in these chakra rods then flowing it through the body therefore they are powered by nagatos chakra, thats how they can move. If nagato's chakra is whats moving them they can do anything nagato himself can do. The jutsu doesnt not use the host body's chakra but nagato's chakra. Since nagato can use all 5 elements the paths can use all 5 elements. All the paths are the same, the only difference is the six paths ability Nagato limits the to have.

we've already seen deva path do fuinjutsu, barrier ninjutsu and summoning jutsu so thats not true. utilizing ninjutsu is not an ability of the rinnegan, its seperate. Obito's paths used ninjutsu so nagato's can, its the exact same technique.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Kamui can't 1 shot kakuzu when 4 hearts are out of his body 

So no in that situation kakashi would have killed himself by trying to use it earlier 

And before that it was a blind side raikiri attack which he thought killed kakuzu 

From there kakuzu could no longer be 1 shotted with kamui


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

@Yoko

K so Kamui isn't viable as a one-shot when there are multiple enemies. So it isn't viable against anyone who can use Bushin, Summons, or any battle involving more than one individual. Just for starters So when exactly is it viable again?.


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

Context.

To _that_ version of Kakashi, you know, the one that was getting tired after 4 Raikiri, Kamui was a big deal.  To the one in the war that could use double the amount of Raikiri and use Kamui multiple times after splitting his chakra twice with Kage Bunshin in addition to over an entire day of sustained Sharingan usage, it is far less of a big deal.

Consistently referring to outdated versions of Kakashi is like me saying Kakashi can beat current Naruto and current Sasuke because he beat them as kids.

All your suggested counter measures ignore the speed with which Kamui can be deployed as well.


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## Rocky (Jan 17, 2016)

I wonder if unexplained increases in stamina are meant to be taken seriously after what happened with Sakura.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 17, 2016)

What's the general opinion of Hebi Sasuke using chidori nagashi to try and escape?


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

No reason why we should limit Kakashi to chapter 330 feats when everyone in the War Arc was scaled up.  Naruto and Sasuke went from being high Kage level to being stronger than the entire ninja world combined in a 48 hour time span, not to mention things like Naruto's Sage Mode weaknesses magically disappearing. Minato magically got Bijuu Mode without actually training for it.  Sakura pulled out Byakugo.  Kakashi is far from being an outlier, IMO - it was a pretty global boost for everybody.

People just notice it more for Kakashi because stamina was the only thing holding Kamui back.  With his current stamina levels, Kamui's brokenness can be applied to it's maximum capacity, which is why you've got people trying to use versions of Kakashi that are ~400 chapters outdated in BD threads.



Atlantic Storm said:


> What's the general opinion of Hebi Sasuke using chidori nagashi to try and escape?



No reason why it shouldn't work.


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Atlantic Storm said:


> What's the general opinion of Hebi Sasuke using chidori nagashi to try and escape?




Well considering Sasuke electrocuted his entire body to nullify Deidara's C0 (which is not all that different), it's a logical counter on the basis of Elemental advantage.

Likewise, I think Raiton no Yoroi would just let A hop right out of it.


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## Kyu (Jan 17, 2016)

> like Naruto's Sage Mode *weaknesses* magically disappearing



You mean its time limit? Because theoretically Sage Mode's brief duration should no longer be an inconvenience following chapter 571. Or at least once it was revealed Kurama can gather natural energy.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Context.
> 
> To _that_ version of Kakashi, you know, the one that was getting tired after 4 Raikiri, Kamui was a big deal.  To the one in the war that could use double the amount of Raikiri and use Kamui multiple times after splitting his chakra twice with Kage Bunshin in addition to over an entire day of sustained Sharingan usage, it is far less of a big deal.
> 
> ...


I repeat amount of usages shouldn't matter if Kakashi can win in One-Shot. You arguing more usages matter, just makes that obvious.



Atlantic Storm said:


> What's the general opinion of Hebi Sasuke using chidori nagashi to try and escape?


My opinion is that people take it for granted that Nagashi somehow magically makes the swamp disappear. It may counter the adhesive Doton Chakra, but than Sasuke is still left stuck in a swamp w/ no foothold to escape. He's better off summoning a large snake underneath him, to push him out of the swamp, and use as a foothold.


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## Yoko (Jan 17, 2016)

And he _can_ win in one shot.  Nobody is summoning, using Bunshin, or blocking LoS before an S/T jutsu of that speed is fired off.  Using examples where Kakashi failed due to inexperience, chakra levels, or very specific situations doesn't change that unless they prepare well before hand

Of course stamina changes everything.  Knowing that you can only use a jutsu once before being physically impaired versus knowing you can use it multiple times without being impaired will obviously affect your willingness to use it.

Think back to the Kakuzu fight.  Kakashi can use only one Kamui after four Raikiri.  He uses it on Kakuzu.  Now he cannot move, and there are still three hearts flying around shooting chakra cannons.  How exactly does using Kamui help him there? It only became an option when Kakuzu fused his hearts to his shoulders and made himself one target.  Before that point, it'd only impair him and leave him unable to defend himself or the deadweight Chunin.


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## Itachі (Jan 18, 2016)

Turrin, nobody's saying that Kamui is a 100% guaranteed win. However, you'd be very hard pressed to be able to counter War Arc Kakashi's Kamui since he doesn't only only have one shot at it.


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## Turrin (Jan 18, 2016)

Yoko said:


> And he _can_ win in one shot.  Nobody is summoning, using Bunshin, or blocking LoS before an S/T jutsu of that speed is fired off.


So were back to you ignoring how the Dojutsu actually works, I.E. building chakra to Mangekyo, before any Dojutsu can be used. K



> Using examples where Kakashi failed due to inexperience, chakra levels, or very specific situations doesn't change that unless they prepare well before hand


The very specific situation according to you is having the potential for multiple targets, to which I repeat, guess One-shot isn't viable in most scenarios



> Of course stamina changes everything. Knowing that you can only use a jutsu once before being physically impaired versus knowing you can use it multiple times without being impaired will obviously affect your willingness to use it.
> .


Kakashi has never been able to use Kamui multiple times w/o being physically impaired.



> Think back to the Kakuzu fight. Kakashi can use only one Kamui after four Raikiri. He uses it on Kakuzu. Now he cannot move, and there are still three hearts flying around shooting chakra cannons. How exactly does using Kamui help him there? It only became an option when Kakuzu fused his hearts to his shoulders and made himself one target. Before that point, it'd only impair him and leave him unable to defend himself or the deadweight Chunin


I'm sorry but this is BS. If Kakashi can one-shot characters as easily as you claim, he could have One-Shot Kakuzu multiple times before Kakuzu released his other hearts. 

I mean on one hand your arguing, characters can't even use a Bushin technique, which requires like 1 Hand-Seal before being Kamui sniped, but than on the other hand are arguing, that Kakashi couldn't use Kamui because his enemy had time to generate multiple targets.. It just doesn't add up.



Itachі said:


> Turrin, nobody's saying that Kamui is a 100% guaranteed win. However, you'd be very hard pressed to be able to counter War Arc Kakashi's Kamui since he doesn't only only have one shot at it.


If he needs more shots of Kamui to beat characters, than he isn't winning in 1 Shot. 

Again, how do you not see the contradiction your creating.

Edit:

The Bottom line guys, is if you want to argue the reason we haven't seen Kamui one-shots is because Kakashi plays it very safe with his usages of Kamui due to the heft draw-backs of the technique, than when he encounters a Ninja he's almost never going to be starting that match with Kamui, because he won't want to risk wasting a Kamui on a Bushin, Genjutsu, Other Feints, or out of the possibility that Ninja has back up. He'll use other Jutsu to feel out his enemy first, but by doing so he is also giving the enemy time to utilize techniques that could make it more difficult to land Kamui as well. At which point Kakash if he decides he has to use Kamui,i is probably left having to strategical create an opening to use Kamui to effectively damage or defeat the enemy, to be successful, rather than use it as a straight forward One-Shot. Hence why we haven't seen any One-Shots from Kamui. And no Kakashi stamina increase in the war arc isn't changing this at all, it's not like Kakashi as off the war arc can use Kamui dozens of times w/o drawbacks, he simply increased his uses from anywhere around 1-3 to 3-5; 2-3 more uses isn't going to change Kakashi's mind-set on being conservative, as we clearly saw in the war he was still holding back Kamui against the 7MS and Edo Jinchuurik


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## Yoko (Jan 18, 2016)

Turrin said:


> So were back to you ignoring how the Dojutsu actually works, I.E. building chakra to Mangekyo, before any Dojutsu can be used. K



Show me the buildup.
Show me the buildup. 
Show me the buildup. 
Show me the buildup.

The only time Kakashi has had to "buildup" chakra was against Deidara and when he was exhausted in the war after multiple KB usages (i.e. Gedo Mazo's head).  If he's fresh or even at half capacity, he doesn't need to build up chakra unless you use outdated versions of him.



> Kakashi has never been able to use Kamui multiple times w/o being physically impaired.



_False_.  Kakashi warped 3 human sized targets simultaneously (mind you, after multiple other Kamui usages so he isn't at 100% capacity) and is seen on his feet and running towards Obito's position a page later.



> I'm sorry but this is BS. If Kakashi can one-shot characters as easily as you claim, he could have One-Shot Kakuzu multiple times before Kakuzu released his other hearts.



I think you need to re-read the entire Kakuzu exchange.  Here is a refresher:

Kakashi goes for a Raikiri back-stab.  He thinks Kakuzu is dead.  Kakashi goes to Raikiri Hidan.  He gets kicked into a tree by the guy he thought he killed.
Kakuzu immediately unleashes all the hearts while Kakashi is still down.

Kakashi did not have enough chakra to use Kamui "multiple times" at this point in the manga.  Furthermore, we have no idea how good Kakashi was with Kamui at this point.  The last time we saw him use it, he was still incompetent with it.  The next time we see him use it is against Pain, roughly 100 chapters later.



> I mean on one hand your arguing, characters can't even use a Bushin technique, which requires like 1 Hand-Seal before being Kamui sniped, but than on the other hand are arguing, that Kakashi couldn't use Kamui because his enemy had time to generate multiple targets.. It just doesn't add up.



This scan right here was Kakashi's only chance to snipe Kakuzu before he unleashed the hearts, and he had just gotten kicked into a tree and was clearly still recovering and processing why the guy he just killed was still alive.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 18, 2016)

I wonder where davizwiz is

for someone who has always hopeless hyped YN you seem absent here


----------



## Turrin (Jan 19, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Show me the buildup.
> Show me the buildup.
> Show me the buildup.
> Show me the buildup.


All of those instances were mid battle, meaning Kakashi had plenty of time prior to all of those instances to build up chakra. 



> False. Kakashi warped 3 human sized targets simultaneously (mind you, after multiple other Kamui usages so he isn't at 100% capacity) and is seen on his feet and running towards Obito's position a page later.


He used 1 Kamui there to warp Naruto and Sakura. That's not multiple Kamui. And running towards Obito isn't the same thing as demonstrating unhindered reactions.



> Kakashi did not have enough chakra to use Kamui "multiple times" at this point in the manga.


He clearly used Kamui 3 Times against Deidara in the previous arc, and we must assume he could do better in the immortals arc, so try again Yoko.



> Furthermore, we have no idea how good Kakashi was with Kamui at this point. The last time we saw him use it, he was still incompetent with it. The next time we see him use it is against Pain, roughly 100 chapters later.


Oh please spare me the BS Yoko, even back in the Suna Arc Kakashi was able to quickly warp a human sized explosive clone. So he certainly had the necessary skills.



> This scan right here was Kakashi's only chance to snipe Kakuzu before he unleashed the hearts, and he had just gotten kicked into a tree and was clearly still recovering and processing why the guy he just killed was still alive.


An according to you outlandish overestimations of Kamui, that should have been far more time then he required, even factoring in him recovering from the kick. Again you can't argue Kamui is this nigh instant, where someone can't even cast KB before it's completed out one side of your mouth and than complain Kakashi didn't have enough time to warp Kakuzu out of the other.


----------



## Yoko (Jan 19, 2016)

Turrin said:


> All of those instances were mid battle, meaning Kakashi had plenty of time prior to all of those instances to build up chakra.




"All those instances were mid battle" - _what_? How is this even a counter argument? You are just ignoring the multiple examples I gave you.  There is literally no point to debate with you if you're just going to arbitrarily write stuff off that you don't like at a whim.

Against Sasuke's Susano'o, Kakashi literally went from 3T to Mangekyo on the fly when the arrows were already flying towards him.  He warped Naruto / Sakura / Gaara's sand on the fly at Obito's command.  He warped the kunai in mid air when it suddenly changed trajectory.  He warped the Gedo Mazo when it suddenly and unexpectedly popped out of Obito's dying body.  When again did Kakashi build up chakra for this?

I'll humor you, though; if Kakashi will always have chakra built up for Kamui, why are you bringing up chakra build up as a detriment in the first place? He always has it built up anyway, according to you.



> He used 1 Kamui there to warp Naruto and Sakura. That's not multiple Kamui. And running towards Obito isn't the same thing as demonstrating unhindered reactions.




My point is it wasn't a small Kamui - it warped three human sized targets.  We know Kamui's chakra strain is linked to the size of the target it warps. He could have used multiple Kamui on smaller objects instead of one big one.



> He clearly used Kamui 3 Times against Deidara in the previous arc, and we must assume he could do better in the immortals arc, so try again Yoko.




Against Deidara, Kamui was the only jutsu he used - and he charged it up for several minutes during the pursuit.  Against Kakuzu, he had sustained injuries and used four Raikiri already.  He flat out said he was starting to feel exhausted.  Are you just going to ignore that because it's convenient for you?



> Oh please spare me the BS Yoko, even back in the Suna Arc Kakashi was able to quickly warp a human sized explosive clone. So he certainly had the necessary skills.




So whenever you're flat out proven wrong, you just flail around and cry "BS".  Again, I'll humor you . . . Kakashi: "I still can't properly control the location and size of the barrier limiting the area."  Do you claim to know Kakashi's control over Kamui better than he himself does?



> Again you can't argue Kamui is this nigh instant.




Kamui tore off Gedo Mazo's arm mid-summon.  It's nigh instant.



> Where someone can't even cast KB before it's completed out one side of your mouth and than complain Kakashi didn't have enough time to warp Kakuzu out of the other.




_*Let me break it down for you, for the third time*_:  Kakuzu released his hearts while Kakashi was still on the ground, kicked into a tree.  By releasing the hearts, Kakuzu is now five separate targets - a main body and four flying hearts.  Kakashi cannot use Kamui five times in the Kakuzu Arc.  That is the amount of shots he'd need to warp Kakuzu's main body and his four hearts.  How is that hard for you to comprehend?

You're willfully ignoring the stamina disparity between the current Kakashi and the one from 400 chapters ago.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2016)

Kamui has every element of brokeness, and War Arc Kakashi gained the placement and position and status to actually win with it, whilst being given the mindset and tactics to use it in the worst possible way.  I thought we covered this.  I know I covered it way back when, at the same time I expressed my displeasure at Kishi's kamui abusing method of raising Kakashi's standing.  

If you want something super trippy, KCM Minato couldn't even catch Kakashi's usage of Kamui.  Go back to the chapter where Minato got his rasengan arm chucked at Kakashi.  Kakashi was able to react to Juudara's attack and Kamui the rasengan away the moment it touched his shirt, without Minato or anyone else noticing.  It was then established a few chapters later that it took Truth Seeker Orbs on Sage Juudara's laughing at teleports level to outpace the buildup and execution of a single kamui from combat distance, and even that is insufficient against a double kamui.  

If you want portrayal, Madara had to steal a kamui eyeball to get into kamui land, and Juubito had to lose kamui to not solo.  Furthermore, Rinnebito was paired off with Kakashi to fight in another dimension when Kishi paired everyone off by power placement, like he did with jinton v jinton and MS vs MS and Bijuu vs Bijuu and Hashirama vs Madara, because only kamui can defeat kamui.  When Kamui got upgraded along it's natural path of having two eyeballs, Kakashi cut through god with a kamui variant, and had to lose all kamui so Naruto and Sasuke could have a battle.  Oh yeah, said god had a stronger version of Kamui which she too abused because it's just that good, and used it to separate Naruto and Sasuke.  The counter to that was.... Obito's Kamui.  Kamui itself is god tier, and when Kakashi faces high tiers he attacks with kamui, he defends with kamui, he strategists around kamui, and when pushed into a corner he spams kamui and gets named mid-battle as the next Hokage.  That should pretty much tell us, "Kakashi is highly valued now and is going to win, and he's going to do it with kamui."

The best you can do is play with conditions so it isn't a oneshot, but even then the move has defencive uses and tactical ploys that make it extremely valuable in high level play.    Of course, I don't think we should ignore that Kakashi is still supposed to have stamina issues, since he repeatedly complained about his chakra usage, and they'd probably come back if the story was no longer at the climax.  But even if he can only use it a handful of times, he can whine about being tired all he wants once the opponents are gone.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> because only kamui can defeat kamui.



Minato(hirashin) and Itachi(Amaterasu) disagree.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2016)

this 
this


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato(hirashin) and Itachi(Amaterasu) disagree.



Different point in the series.  At that point in the manga kamui users went off to do kamui things, and the only way for Juudara to win was to get Kakashi's eyeball.  The only way to re-unite Sasuke and Naruto after bad bunny's successful kamui was with kamui.  Juudara also got outplayed by kamui, which at that point did fine with KCM Sage Hiraishin.  

Earlier....I disagree that ameterasu did anything, but sure.  It hardly changes anything.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Different point in the series.  At that point in the manga kamui users went off to do kamui things, and the only way for Juudara to win was to get Kakashi's eyeball.  The only way to re-unite Sasuke and Naruto after bad bunny's successful kamui was with kamui.  Juudara also got outplayed by kamui, which at that point did fine with KCM Sage Hiraishin.



He needed Kakashi's eye to get access to Kamui dimension to take back the Rinnegan, not because of the power it would grant him. He tossed aside the eye the moment he got his hands on the rinnegan



> [
> Earlier....I disagree that ameterasu did anything, but sure.  It hardly changes anything.


Amaterasu didn't do anything because of Izanagi, not because of Kamui.
Amaterasu beats Kamui.
So does Hirashin.


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## Itachі (Jan 20, 2016)

^ Didn't Databook say that Obito used Kamui to avoid it?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2016)

> He needed Kakashi's eye to get access to Kamui dimension to take back the Rinnegan, not because of the power it would grant him.



he needed the power it would grant him to combat kamui hiding shesanaynaygins bcas shesanaynaygins 2 strogg

If you have anything to say about more than one line you take minor issue with in a big ol' post that doesn't even need ancillary support, then you may freely speak your piece.  If this is really all you have to quibble with it, I don't really care anymore, because it doesn't invalidate the point I was trying to make, and I'd rather not talk on about it lest we lose sight of what's truly important.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Something about high ponies and Ino.  Probably.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2016)

Itachі said:


> ^ Didn't Databook say that Obito used Kamui to avoid it?



Nah it didn't.
Its a common misconception.


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## Hasan (Jan 20, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah it didn't.
> Its a common misconception.



Actually, it did:



			
				Databook 3 - Tobi said:
			
		

> [Enigmatic Powers]
> No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. *In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu*, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air. And here is the biggest question of all: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Actually, it did:



No it didn't. Like I said it is a common misconception.



> [Enigmatic *Powers*]
> No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's* powers* are



It never singles out Kamui.

It simply says whatever his powers are, they allow him to vanish into thin air(warping), let attacks fail to connect(phasing), keeps his body unscratched after Itachi's Amaterasu(Izanagi). Notice how 3 of them are mentioned seperately.

Kamui doesn't have the capability of negating the damage anyways. Obito got hit by Amateasu and he was engulfed and screamed for a good while before he went completely silent.

Mechanically, Kamui can't counter Amatereasu anyways. I have no idea where people got that BS from.


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## Hasan (Jan 20, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It never singles out Kamui.
> 
> It simply says whatever his powers are, they allow him to vanish into thin air(warping), let attacks fail to connect(phasing), keeps his body unscratched after Itachi's Amaterasu(Izanagi). Notice how 3 of them are mentioned seperately.



Read carefully, mate. _"His ability lets. . ."_

It let him perform all three. It was theorized by Sakura even then that his ability to vanish completely, and partially (thus giving an illusion of attacks failing to connect) were one and the same ability.

It's not talking about multiple abilities.



> Kamui doesn't have the capability of negating the damage anyways. Obito got hit by Amateasu and he was engulfed and screamed for a good while before he went completely silent.



Obito is a good actor?



> Mechanically, Kamui can't counter Amatereasu anyways. I have no idea where people got that BS from.



I know, but it's Kamui. It performs miracles.


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## Turrin (Jan 20, 2016)

Yoko said:


> "All those instances were mid battle" - _what_? How is this even a counter argument? You are just ignoring the multiple examples I gave you.  There is literally no point to debate with you if you're just going to arbitrarily write stuff off that you don't like at a whim.
> 
> Against Sasuke's Susano'o, Kakashi literally went from 3T to Mangekyo on the fly when the arrows were already flying towards him.  He warped Naruto / Sakura / Gaara's sand on the fly at Obito's command.  He warped the kunai in mid air when it suddenly changed trajectory.  He warped the Gedo Mazo when it suddenly and unexpectedly popped out of Obito's dying body.  When again did Kakashi build up chakra for this?


Are you saying he can't build up chakra to his eyes unless he has MS activated? Because that seems an awful lot like BS to me. 



> I'll humor you, though; if Kakashi will always have chakra built up for Kamui, why are you bringing up chakra build up as a detriment in the first place? He always has it built up anyway, according to you.


Because of your outlandish claim here:



Yoko said:


> And he _can_ win in one shot.  Nobody is summoning, using Bunshin, or blocking LoS before an S/T jutsu of that speed is fired off. .



Your claiming sight on scene, the moment Kakashi see's an enemy he can warp their head off w/ Kamui before they can use KB or even another ST Jutsu like Kuchiyose. But it's not going to happen because Kakashi isn't going to have chakra built up to his Dojutsu to pull Kamui out like that, unless Kakashi has prior prep.

Mid battle is a different story, because by then Kakashi has had time to A)Decide he may need MS/Kamui and B) take some time to build up chakra to his Dojutsu



> My point is it wasn't a small Kamui - it warped three human sized targets. We know Kamui's chakra strain is linked to the size of the target it warps. He could have used multiple Kamui on smaller objects instead of one big one.


Amount of uses seems more draining than size, unless we start talking about something the size of Bijuu or whatever. 

And again, running to Obito's side isn't the same thing as his reactions not being impaired. Itachi could have run around just fine after his first Tsukuyomi, but his reactions were still impaired, as seen when he failed to completely evade Sasuke's Shuriken trap.



> Against Deidara, Kamui was the only jutsu he used - and he charged it up for several minutes during the pursuit. Against Kakuzu, he had sustained injuries and used four Raikiri already. He flat out said he was starting to feel exhausted. Are you just going to ignore that because it's convenient for you?


I already agreed that Kakashi couldn't use Kamui enough to warp Kakuzu and all of the masked beasts. However as I said, that just shows that any time the enemy can increase their numbers somewhat, Kamui one-shot isn't viable.

What i'm saying is that at the start of the Kakuzu battle he clearly had enough chakra to use Kamui after only using 1 Rarikirii.



> Kakashi: "I still can't properly control the location and size of the barrier limiting the area." Do you claim to know Kakashi's control over Kamui better than he himself does?


No I just know context, which you fail to acknowledge. When Kakashi is talking about having trouble with the barrier, he is speaking about a long-rang Kamui usage. While he factually showed no issue in terms of accuracy with a short range Kamui usage against Deidara's Explosive Clone.

You can't say i'm wrong, when we flat out see Kakashi factually pull of such a warp in the manga. 



> Kamui tore off Gedo Mazo's arm mid-summon. It's nigh instant.


At that point Kakashi had been battling monsters like Madara, Obito, and Juubi for hours. He knew his Kamui was the only thing relevant in that struggle and likely consistently made sure he had chakra built up to his eye. Than when GM was summoned he went to use it immediately, knowing the danger of such a thing. 

That's a whole lot different than Kakashi being able to pull out Kamui second 1 of the battle instantly.



> Let me break it down for you, for the third time: Kakuzu released his hearts while Kakashi was still on the ground, kicked into a tree. By releasing the hearts, Kakuzu is now five separate targets - a main body and four flying hearts. Kakashi cannot use Kamui five times in the Kakuzu Arc. That is the amount of shots he'd need to warp Kakuzu's main body and his four hearts. How is that hard for you to comprehend?


Let me break it down for you 1 more time. Kakashi should have been able to warp Kakuzu before he released his hearts, if Kamui was so fast. And no I don't accept that Kakashi being kicked into the tree distracted him for that entire process; fucking Ei laiger choped Sasuke's ass and a split second later Sasuke was able to pull out Enton Kagatsuchi.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Jan 20, 2016)

Any character that can use any of the following jutsus should be logically able to evade YM
Hiding Like a Mole - change the texture of the earth into fine sand and dig a tunnel
Leech All Creation/Mayfly/Hiding in rock technique - by phasing out
Subterranean Voyage - kind of a mix of the two jutsus above

So people like Orochimaru, Kisame, Deidara, Kabuto, Tobi/Obito etc have no problems getting out

Any Preta user can counter it

Having Sharingan precog isnt enough as you need to be able to outrun the swamp in a split second and not even Itachi can cover the distance in a second. I mean, just look at the size of the swamp
Look how small Jiraiya and Orochimaru are in this image. You cant outrun that swamp.

So anyone that uses
- Preta Path
- Hiding like a mole/LAC/Mayfly etc etc

can escape Yomi Numa

Im sure Suigetsu and his clan might be able to sort something out too, though the viscous mud may absorb the water meaning they could be trapped in their fluid state. 

And obviously people like Tobirama and Minato (under the right conditions) and Obito have a high chance of getting out.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 20, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Kamui has every element of brokeness, and War Arc Kakashi gained the placement and position and status to actually win with it, whilst being given the mindset and tactics to use it in the worst possible way.  I thought we covered this.  I know I covered it way back when, at the same time I expressed my displeasure at Kishi's kamui abusing method of raising Kakashi's standing.
> 
> If you want something super trippy, KCM Minato couldn't even catch Kakashi's usage of Kamui.  Go back to the chapter where Minato got his rasengan arm chucked at Kakashi.  Kakashi was able to react to Juudara's attack and Kamui the rasengan away the moment it touched his shirt, without Minato or anyone else noticing.  It was then established a few chapters later that it took Truth Seeker Orbs on Sage Juudara's laughing at teleports level to outpace the buildup and execution of a single kamui from combat distance, and even that is insufficient against a double kamui.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but Kakashi's Kamui really is not that good or broken. Obito's Kamui or DMS-Kakashi's Kamui is a different story, because in both those instances the user can spam Kamui seemingly w/o drawbacks. War-Arc Kakashi has drawkbacks to his Kamui usage. People refusing to acknowledge the drawbacks Kishimoto blatantly put into the War-Arc, is not the manga's or Kishimoto's portraying the Jutsu as broken.

In essence there are two variants of 1MS Kakashi in the War. The one at the start of the war and the one at the end of the war before Madara steals Kakashi's MS. 

The Kakashi at the start of the war is still very much concerned with stamina and the drain of MS on him. This is seen when he comments on stamina drain in the battle against the Edo-Jinchuuriki after utilizing a KB, and illustrated by the fact that he does not pull MS/Kamui out against 7MS or even the Edo-Jinchuuriki in their V2 Forms. This Kakashi also does not yet have the skill with MS to utilize the more absurdly skillful displays he demonstrated in the later half of the war. 

Than there is the Kakashi towards the end of his 1MS run, where his skill and speed with MS increased, but in trade off for that he's fucked his vision to the point where he can't use Long-Range Kamui and needs to be carried around by Gaara into range. That Kakashi isn't going to be pulling out MS ether right away against none world ending threats (I.E. Madara and Juubi), and he needs to be in range to employ MS, and is physically enfeebled. 

People like to combine these two Kakashi's, giving Kakashi End of the War Feats and Start of the War physicality, as well as ignoring that Kakashi needs to build chakra to his eyes to us MS/Kamui, and than claim Kamui is broken. That's not Kakashi's Kamui being broken in the manga, that's fans making it broken by ignoring it's drawbacks.

Nether Start of War or End of War Kakashi can Kamui someone Second 1 of the match before they can do anything, as they need to build up chakra to their eye first to use MS/Kamui.

Start of War Kakashi isn't use MS early on because stamina and physical drain is still a huge concern for him as well. And the speed of the actual Jutsu isn't as good.

End of War Kakashi isn't using MS early on because he doesn't want to make his Sharingan go completely blind, and while the speed and efficiency of the Jutsu is increased the range has diminished greatly and Kakashi is enfeebled from his loss of eyesight.

----

Kamui looked good in the war-arc, because:

A)Kakashi was up against World Ending Threats, so he always knew he couldn't hold back Kamui and always had chakra built up to use

B)Kakashi had teammates to cover for him and support him while he suffered from the draw-backs of Kamui.

This create an illusion where it seemed like Kamui didn't have as harsh drawbacks, but the statements and scenes are there to show that this is not the case, if people are willing to acknowledge them.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Read carefully, mate. _"His ability lets. . ."_
> 
> It let him perform all three. It was theorized by Sakura even then that his ability to vanish completely, and partially (thus giving an illusion of attacks failing to connect) were one and the same ability.
> 
> It's not talking about multiple abilities.



At that point there was no distinction between his abilities because we had no idea what his abilities are. They were kept as a secret for a purpose.

How can Kishimoto explain them distincitvely without revealing what they are ?

Vanishing into thin air and letting attacks pass through are the two abilities that we know his Kamui has.
Being unscratched after getting hit by an attack isn't a trait of Kamui.




> The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone...


This is from Databook 3, Tobi's profile.

This implies that Tobi also had a jutsu that could cheat death.
Later on in the manga we learned that Madara decieved Hashirama with Izanagi.
There isn't a direct connection but it is too significant to be a coincidence.



> Obito is a good actor?


He had no reason to act @ that point, he was about to remove his mask and tell Sasuke everything.
And besides, the two situations aren't comparable because in one instance, we didn't see if the sword inflicted damage or not. In the other, we saw Amaterasu form on him and spread through his body and then heard him scream for a while. 

So no.


> I know, but it's Kamui. It performs miracles.


When it comes to performing miracles, no one is better than Itachi


----------



## Saru (Jan 20, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but Kakashi's Kamui really is not that good or broken. Obito's Kamui or DMS-Kakashi's Kamui is a different story, because in both those instances the user can spam Kamui seemingly w/o drawbacks. War-Arc Kakashi has drawkbacks to his Kamui usage. People refusing to acknowledge the drawbacks Kishimoto blatantly put into the War-Arc, is not the manga's or Kishimoto's portraying the Jutsu as broken.
> 
> In essence there are two variants of 1MS Kakashi in the War. The one at the start of the war and the one at the end of the war before Madara steals Kakashi's MS.
> 
> ...




So you think Kakashi's proficiency with Kamui drastically changed between his fight with the Jinchuriki (which was a terrible time for Kakashi to use Kamui BTW--it's three high-speed opponents vs one) and his combined Kamui warp with Obito? To the extent that he cannot accomplish what he is able to accomplish moments later? Even Sasuke's growth in proficiency with Amaterasu was not that rapid.

You also seem to think that every instance in which Kakashi _can_ use Kamui he _should_ use it, and then come to the conclusion that "he would've used it if he could have," when it's not that cut and dry. 

I also don't know where you're getting this buildup argument from. The only times Kakashi's "built up" for Kamui is when he's warping extremely large targets or when he was first using Kamui (against Deidara, some 400 chapters ago). And even then, he warped Gyuki and Naruto/Obito/Sakura without warning.


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## Rocky (Jan 20, 2016)

I don't think Kakashi would usually resort to Kamui right at the bell, but someone of his ability should be able to connect with it at _some_ point during a fight. By "ability" I mean his rather high speed, caution, and intelligence. He's good at staying alive. He should be smart enough to find a way to use something as broken as Kamui successfully during most of his battles. With Kamui, I think he caps somewhere around the Sannin. He defeats Tsunade & Orochimaru and goes either way with Jiraiya.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2016)

Kakshi uses kamui first thing against people he deems above him.  He was going to insta-kamui who he thought was Madara, and tried out on the Gedo twice.  Deidara too, maybe.  But for pretty much anyone who he doesn't feel is way out of his league, he will survive long enough to learn he needs to use it, and use it.  We saw that vs Kakuzu, and again he was going to kamui Deva before he got back-up and thought he could win without it.  For anyone below that he can beat normally.  Combine that with one of the most complete "manga," knowledge banks in the series and he's sitting pretty.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2016)

I think there is more to it.

Deidara was running away, so using Kamui was essential to stop him or slow him down because otherwise they wouldn't be able to fight against him from that range.

He attempted to use it against Tobi/Madara because @ the time he thought he had no shot @ taking him, so I guess he thought it was one of those do or die moments.

Gedo was a tool that was essential to his enemies success, and the only way he could take out Gedo was Kamui. 

As you can see, all of those situations *required* him to use it.

He was overwhelmed by Kakuzu, but not to the extend that he would 100% die if he didn't use Kamui, at least in the earlier portions of the fight. I also think he didn't use it because he first wanted to have an idea about what Kakuzu could do, so that he wouldn't waste kamui on an opponent whom he didn't have much knowledge on and put himself in a vulnerable spot. Like Sasuke was doing against Danzo.


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## Saru (Jan 20, 2016)

I love how on-topic this whole thread is. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He attempted to use it against Tobi/Madara because @ the time he thought he had no shot @ taking him, so I guess he thought it was one of those do or die moments.




I'm going to have to disagree with this one. Nagato's Deva Path was a formidable threat, but Kakashi didn't Kamui snipe his head off. And this was after Pain had attacked Konoha* (but before he had Big Bad Wolf'd Konoha, which is important). On the other hand, Kakashi's mindset prior to facing Tobi was that _Madara Uchiha_, the most fearsome ninja that has ever lived (excluding Hashirama/Rikoudou Sennin), had aided Sasuke in attacking the Five Kage with killing intent and _declared war_ on the six great nations in the faces of the Gokage. That is a much bigger deal than the threat of someone who has just attacked Konoha. Since "Madara" posed a greater threat than Pain, Kakashi opted to use Kamui immediately rather than engage him in combat as he did Pain. 

Kakashi didn't _have_ to use Kamui then and there. "Madara" wasn't threatening Team Seven or Sasuke (and given his conversation with "Madara" earlier, he wasn't planning on harming Sasuke). Madara was on his way out the door. Basic logic would suggest that the other nations were in the midst of forming a plan to fight "Madara," and Kakashi is one of the most levelheaded characters in the manga (we all can agree on this, and this is one of the reasons why Kakashi hesitates to use Kamui immediately), so I think it would be OOC for him to try to be a hero and stop Madara himself. Logically, Kakashi knows that he's weaker than the combined might of *six* _*nations*_. Even if he didn't think all six nations would align, logic should still indicate that the combined might of Konohagakure and Sunagakure (which includes Kage-level ninja like himself, Danzo, Tsunade, Naruto, and Gaara) and perhaps Kirigakure/Kumogakure/Iwagakure should be greater than his own.

However, Kakashi had so much faith in Kamui and saw "Madara Uchiha" as such a threat that he was willing to take actions into his own hands without input or support from the other nations. How convenient that "Madara" was the only one in the manga capable of completely negating Kamui at the time.

*If Kakashi had been around to see Nagato use Shinra Tensei on the village (and not fought him prior), he would've used Kamui immediately. How _convenient_ that Kakashi died before Nagato showed his true power.


----------



## Yoko (Jan 20, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Are you saying he can't build up chakra to his eyes unless he has MS activated? Because that seems an awful lot like BS to me.



In every scenario I gave you, Kakashi used Kamui as the situation called for it - it was on the fly.  There is literally no way he could have known he was going to have to Kamui his own kunai out of the air, Kamui Gedo Mazo popping out of Obito, or Kamui Susano'o arrows.  How is he building up chakra for a Kamui usage he hadn't intended on seconds earlier?

There is always a visual cue when there is Mangekyo chakra build up.  We saw Kakashi use it against Deidara and against Gedo Mazo's head - both situations where he planned to use Kamui.  None of those situations above fall into that category.  They were all purely reactive scenarios as opposed to proactive.

Kakashi has only needed to build up chakra when he was exhausted or when he was still inexperienced with the jutsu, and the examples I've posted provide ample proof of that.



> Amount of uses seems more draining than size, unless we start talking about something the size of Bijuu or whatever.



"With my current chakra, his whole body is out of the question . . . "

Size is a factor, even when dealing with human sized targets.



> And again, running to Obito's side isn't the same thing as his reactions not being impaired.



In the War Arc, Kakashi used 7 Raikiri, two Kage Bunshin, and only displayed physical impairment after the fourth Kamui.  He then got up after that fourth Kamui and proceeded to use a Doton wall, another Kamui, and another Raikiri before dropping again.

The burden on proof is on you to show me he is impaired after only a few Kamui, and that's without giving me scans that are several hundred chapters outdated.  



> Itachi could have run around just fine after his first Tsukuyomi, but his reactions were still impaired, as seen when he failed to completely evade Sasuke's Shuriken trap.



Itachi was terminally ill.



> I already agreed that Kakashi couldn't use Kamui enough to warp Kakuzu and all of the masked beasts. However as I said, that just shows that any time the enemy can increase their numbers somewhat, Kamui one-shot isn't viable.



Here is Kakashi on the ground, surrounded by smoke.

Kakuzu releases the hearts the very next page.

The page after that, Kakashi still hasn't stood up to his feet.

When did Kakashi have an opportunity to use Kamui before Kakuzu released the hearts?



> While he factually showed no issue in terms of accuracy with a short range Kamui usage against Deidara's Explosive Clone.



Accuracy was never your argument.  What you posted was this:  _"Suna Arc Kakashi was able to *quickly* warp a human sized explosive clone. So he certainly had the necessary skills."_

Here is the wormhole still closing several pages later.  You have Lee, Neji, Sakura, and even someone like _Tenten_ actually reacting to Kamui's portal closing.

Compare that to the War Arc where even Bijuu Mode Minato could not perceive what happened.

Now stop pretending that Deidara Arc Kamui  is the same as the War Arc version.  It's not even close, unless you want to open the can of worms that is comparing the reactions of early Part II rookies to Kyuubi-enhanced Minato.



> Let me break it down for you 1 more time. Kakashi should have been able to warp Kakuzu before he released his hearts, if Kamui was so fast.



While he was on the ground, and still hadn't recovered from getting kicked into a tree? While there was line-of-sight obstructing smoke around him?


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## Yoko (Jan 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but Kakashi's Kamui really is *not that good*.




Madara Uchiha: "Seems like they also have someone with a _*good eye*_."

Since you're allegedly into "authorial intent," there is one of the strongest people in the verse praising Kamui.  And he doesn't throw around praise easily, given a weaker version of him dissed an EMS-generated Amaterasu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry







> In essence there are two variants of 1MS Kakashi in the War. The one at the start of the war and the one at the end of the war before Madara steals Kakashi's MS.
> 
> People like to combine these two Kakashi's, giving Kakashi End of the War Feats and Start of the War physicality



Let's take a highly dubious position, and say you're correct.  _So what?_

People makes threads about healthy characters in top condition unless otherwise stated.  Ei has both arms.  Kushina is not post birth with the Kyuubi ripped from her.  Ect.  Then they get their latest feats and knowledge.  So Ei has both arms, and his feats against Madara and Sasuke.  That Ei never technically existed in the manga, but who cares.  If that bothers you, then go make threads with your own conditions, and maybe your gripe will be validated.


> Kamui Susano'o arrows



Kakashi had a normal sharingan right before the arrow was launched.  You can't charge an MS jutsu before turning on your MS.  That'd be like prepping a sharingan genjutsu with your sharingan turned off.  Impossibru.  Tell him that Yoko.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 21, 2016)

> deidara has doton just like kisame. its odd u think kisame can escape but not deidara


I'll have to add him to my list. I forgot he had hiding like a mole. 


> wait I thought u were smart enough to know konan can escape, she is bloody paper, she breaks herself into several sheets then reforms. COMMON MATE!!! that's a given. you know better, if anyone else I thought u would at least agree. since its painfully obvious


What's that mean specifically? Paper has a better chance of escaping then a several story several ton snake who's entire body is made virtually of muscle?

Bahahaha



> sasori, again will not be submerged before he can pull out a scroll and eject his heart canister which is all he needs to do to escape


He certainly will be, the swamp spawns nigh instantly as it appeared within the same panel and the snake could not gain any distance on Jiraiya prior to being stopped by the swamp. 

The snake was right behind Jiraiya chasing him 

And gained no distance on him as he made the seals and stopped it immediately with the swamp 



> or better yet, he is a bloody puppet, he forgoes his legs. summons a new puppet body and uses that one


There's no chance he can summon a puppet prior to the swamp dragging him under.

Detaching his legs won't do much, not that he can, because he'll be drug under before even attempting such a feat. 

Entering another puppet is fruitless, that puppet will also fall into the swamp surrounding him which does not go away.

He'll be under the swamp prior to even summoning another puppet, detaching his leg gives him arguably 1 foot on bonus feet prior to free falling into it, that's less than half a second. 

This is all assuming he reacts to the swamp's creation, considering he's slow as shit and couldn't react to Sakura pulling his cord and him over 30 meters and clobbering him into pieces. 

I'm willing to bet the swamp drags him under faster than that. 



> I don't see how that's far fetched, he can reform himself when broken into pieces. So leaving his legs behind and then transferring to  new puppet body is very very logical


It.. does nothing 

The new puppet will still be free falling... into the swamp... 

Please don't tell me you think he hops on the other puppet, that happens to still be free falling somehow because Sasori is doing this shit faster than the speed of light, and uses it as a base to leap away from the swamp 

It's all going in slow motion for Sasori... he's the god of time 

All this irrelevant because he's not fast enough to do any of this.. he's literally drug under in his original body without even reacting as he starts out sinking 

"Assume that Jiraiya has already activated Yomi Numa and that the sinking has begun."



> I simply need you to show me scans of it soloing anyone. once u can do that ill agree


What the fuck?

Daikodan, Kirin, C4, C3, Chidori, Amaterasu, Bijuudama, Paper Ocean, Katon: Gōka Messhitsu, Katon: Bakufu Ranbu, Jinton, Boil Release, Floral Mountain, Chibaku Tensei never solo'd anyone, are you arguing these techniques wouldn't kill 99% of people if cast upon them?

LOL



> A full powered one used by SM jiraiya didn't instantly sink human path


It wasn't full powered... he created it on a fucking ceiling... a ceiling... 



> jiraiya had no reason not to sink him.


To immobilize the path and keep him in the sound waves of the ensuing Sound Wave Genjutsu?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 21, 2016)

> What's that mean specifically? Paper has a better chance of escaping then a several story several ton snake who's entire body is made virtually of muscle?



When paper can fly.

Konan generally floats above the ground legless in combat.


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## Icegaze (Jan 21, 2016)

Konan can simply reform davizwiz
So even if her legs her caught which she doesn't even have in paper form 

She simply breaks apart and reforms else where 

Quite obvious

Ama burnt sasuke body in half , and 1 shotted hachibi . Kamui ripped gedo arm off , Jinton vaporised 25 susanoo 

All the jutsu have feats and hype 

YN has no feats or hype to boot

It's best feat is restraining human path which isn't worth mentioning


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## Duhul10 (Jan 21, 2016)

There was no reason for Jiraiya to totally submerge human path, because animal would have immediately unsummon him. Plus, Jiraiya wanted to put all three of them in the genjutsu+ It was executed on the ceiling. + as strong as human path is, he could not move a muscle even when helped by animal path hanging with him. + immediately after Jiraiya kicked animal, Human was almost submerged.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> I love how on-topic this whole thread is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The major difference is that Kakashi knew there were 6 paths and he was up against one of them with unknown abilities.
There was absolutely  no reason for him to go for Kamui initially. 


And there is the fact that the hype surrounding Madara is uncomparably greater the hype surrounding Nagato.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 21, 2016)

Yoko said:


> In every scenario I gave you, Kakashi used Kamui as the situation called for it - it was on the fly.  There is literally no way he could have known he was going to have to Kamui his own kunai out of the air, Kamui Gedo Mazo popping out of Obito, or Kamui Susano'o arrows.  How is he building up chakra for a Kamui usage he hadn't intended on seconds earlier?


In all cases he was fighting powerful adversaries, so it's only natural that he built up some chakra in case he needed Kamui. Kakashi isn't an idiot.



> There is always a visual cue when there is Mangekyo chakra build up. We saw Kakashi use it against Deidara and against Gedo Mazo's head - both situations where he planned to use Kamui. None of those situations above fall into that category. They were all purely reactive scenarios as opposed to proactive.


There is no visual que for molding and build up chakra, there never has been. There are ques for when someone uses specific Dojutsu that strain their eyes, but that is a totally different thing.



> Kakashi has only needed to build up chakra when he was exhausted or when he was still inexperienced with the jutsu, and the examples I've posted provide ample proof of that.


Sasuke was nether tired nor inexperienced with Mangekyo and Amaterasu, yet he needed to build up chakra to his eye to use it:
on his way out the door

Kakashi has to build up chakra to his eye to use it, because all Jutsu require chakra to use, and Mangekyo/Kamui require a-lot of chakra.



> "With my current chakra, his whole body is out of the question . . . "
> 
> Size is a factor, even when dealing with human sized targets.


Straw Man, didn't say Size wasn't a factor, I said size appears to be less of a factor than amount of uses.



> In the War Arc, Kakashi used 7 Raikiri, two Kage Bunshin, and only displayed physical impairment after the fourth Kamui. He then got up after that fourth Kamui and proceeded to use a Doton wall, another Kamui, and another Raikiri before dropping again.
> 
> The burden on proof is on you to show me he is impaired after only a few Kamui, and that's without giving me scans that are several hundred chapters outdated.


Dude every other Mangekyo user in the history of the manga has become more physically enfeebled the more times they used Mangekyo. This is because their vision becomes worse every time they use Mangekyo and apparently their body weakens as well, seen by Mangekyo usages being the main cause of flaring up Itachi's illness prior to his death, Madara being bedridden, Sasuke coughing blood the more he used Mangekyo, and Kakashi himself having trouble moving properly after using Kamui in the Kages Arc.

Now I can believe that Kakashi body got more adjust to Sharigan in general as a non Uchiha, and thus he doesn't need to goto the hospital after 3 uses anymore, but he still should have the normal Uchiha draw backs to using Mangekyo. And indeed towards the end of the war arc the manga very clearly tells us that he was suffering from those drawbacks as he is now so blind and physically enfeebled that Gaara needed to carry his ass into point blank range for him to be able to use Kamui effectively.

We simply didn't see direct issues because Kakashi had teammates to cover for him after each Kamui usage, giving him time to recover and for his vision to stabilize. But your pulling Kakashi late game feats, while refusing to acknowledge Mangekyo's drawbacks.



> Itachi was terminally ill.


Dude stop being intellectually dishonest, illness was not the issue highlighted there, it was his eyesight going to shit right after a usage of Tsukuyomi.



> Here is Kakashi on the ground, surrounded by smoke.
> 
> Kakuzu releases the hearts the very next page.
> 
> ...


Countless instances if we go by your overrated view of Kamui's speed. 



> Accuracy was never your argument. What you posted was this: "Suna Arc Kakashi was able to quickly warp a human sized explosive clone. So he certainly had the necessary skills."


Straw Man, I said range is the issue here, not accuracy. Kakashi factually had the accuracy to warp a Human Target in close range, proved by him warping an explosive clone; just accept when your wrong instead of attacking straw man.



> Here is the wormhole still closing several pages later. You have Lee, Neji, Sakura, and even someone like Tenten actually reacting to Kamui's portal closing.
> 
> Compare that to the War Arc where even Bijuu Mode Minato could not perceive what happened.
> 
> Now stop pretending that Deidara Arc Kamui is the same as the War Arc version. It's not even close, unless you want to open the can of worms that is comparing the reactions of early Part II rookies to Kyuubi-enhanced Minato.


Straw Man, never said that. I said Kakashi even back in the Suna-Arc had the necessary skills to warp a person in close range. Factually he did. 



> While he was on the ground, and still hadn't recovered from getting kicked into a tree? While there was line-of-sight obstructing smoke around him?


Again Sasuke recovered from Liager chop quick enough to use his MS, I see no reason why Kakashi couldn't recover from a kick that showed no signs of doing any real lasting damage to him, in time to use Kamui, if he really wanted to. Obviously he did not wish to us Kamui and therefore took his time recovering while analyzing the enemies next move. 

Also end of the day it doesn't really matter what the excuse is. What matters here is that Kakashi did not opt for an instant Kamui warp in the beginning of the battle and therefore his opponents had time to utilize Jutsu, which then prevented instant Kamui warp from being viable in the Mid/Late stages of the battle.



Yoko said:


> Madara Uchiha: "Seems like they also have someone with a _*good eye*_."
> 
> Since you're allegedly into "authorial intent," there is one of the strongest people in the verse praising Kamui.  And he doesn't throw around praise easily, given a weaker version of him dissed an EMS-generated Amaterasu.


*Kakashi's* Kamui

Kamui itself and Obito's Mangekyo is one of the best Mangekyo in the manga, probably only surpassed by Shishui's Mangekyo in potential. However Kakashi's ability to utilize those eyes are still limited because he isn't a pure blood Uchiha, no Senju DNA, and no EMS (or higher evolution). 

Kamui is a great ability, the problem always has been draw backs.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> So you think Kakashi's proficiency with Kamui drastically changed between his fight with the Jinchuriki (which was a terrible time for Kakashi to use Kamui BTW--it's three high-speed opponents vs one) and his combined Kamui warp with Obito? To the extent that he cannot accomplish what he is able to accomplish moments later? Even Sasuke's growth in proficiency with Amaterasu was not that rapid.


Yeah I think Kakashi's grew significantly with Mangekyo throughout the later half of the war, due to circumstance allowing/demanding him to gain a great deal of experience with it, very rapidly. 

And what do you mean Sasuke's growth was not that rapid. Sasuke developed his Mangekyo skills extremely rapidly during the Kage Summit Arc. Which in essence is very similar to how Kakashi rapidly developed his skills with Kamui during the War-Arc. In both cases we have Sasuke and Kakashi put up against very powerful enemies that required them to utilize their Mangekyo multiple times consecutively, and in both cases they received restores that allowed them to use Mangekyo more in a single day than they otherwise could. 



> You also seem to think that every instance in which Kakashi can use Kamui he should use it, and then come to the conclusion that "he would've used it if he could have," when it's not that cut and dry.


No I'm saying A)Ether he couldn't use it or B)He didn't want to risk using it.  B)Acknowledges it's not always that cut an dry, but also acknowledges that he didn't use it.



> I also don't know where you're getting this buildup argument from. The only times Kakashi's "built up" for Kamui is when he's warping extremely large targets or when he was first using Kamui (against Deidara, some 400 chapters ago). And even then, he warped Gyuki and Naruto/Obito/Sakura without warning.


No he built up for it every time, unless your arguing Kamui requires zero chakra to use. We don't see the build up because building up chakra in invisible. Any more than we see the build up of chakra for any other application.


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## Icegaze (Jan 21, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> There was no reason for Jiraiya to totally submerge human path, because animal would have immediately unsummon him. Plus, Jiraiya wanted to put all three of them in the genjutsu+ It was executed on the ceiling. + as strong as human path is, he could not move a muscle even when helped by animal path hanging with him. + immediately after Jiraiya kicked animal, Human was almost submerged.



So why didn't animal path un summon him when he was half sunk ?

No one ever argued u can muscle out of it . So pointless statement there 

Hair needle is jiriaya fastest technique which animal path could react to 

Therefore YN would be slower and easier to react to . 

Jutsu with no hype or feats worth mentioning


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## Duhul10 (Jan 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So why didn't animal path un summon him when he was half sunk ?
> 
> No one ever argued u can muscle out of it . So pointless statement there
> 
> ...



Kebari senbon is the fastest jutsu to cover a wide range, human size yomi numa is not a part of that category. + again, maybe the milionth time. Kebari senbon is faster than any other SAGE MODE attack. Prove me that Sage mode attacks are faster than summoning jutsu and I will say you are right.
Animal did not desummon because he knew that if he did that, then Jiraiya would have got out victorious because the path wouldn't have had anymore time to summon the others.
And wait a sec. Jiraiya confirmed that the only way to escape that Jutsu is to put up a shield and that is what the path did. Nagato did not even try to make the path move because it would have been useless. + what makes you think Animal did not start the summoning before Jiraiya used kebari senbon. I mean Preta saw Jiraiya coming at animal's back and then animall summons right before Jiraiya uses the jutsu.


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## Icegaze (Jan 21, 2016)

Lol scans of Jiraiya explicitly saying this is my fastest bar YN

Kebari senbon by his own words also cover the widest range 

You have zero argument here


Jiraiya can summon in sage mode though

Or are you so dense you forget

He can therefore he can use FCD which by his own admission is slower than Kensei

You have it on panel . I don't need to prove anything since , the claim was made in canon 

I didn't claim it 

Same way hirudora is gai fastest 7th Gate punch


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## Icegaze (Jan 21, 2016)

All I need to ask the Yomi numa trolls is

- does sage mode nerf the speed of your jutsu and inherently make them slower?

- why would jiraiya claim kebari senbon is his fastest attack with the widest range if this was untrue?

- considering animal path reaction to it. and its minimum feats why on earth do people try to claim you will get dragged in 100m immediately or you cant react to it?

have you ever known a jutsu to not work with great effect on a fodder snake?

if one was to base its effectiveness on the fodder snake, then sorry davizwiz and duhul 

but you have both argued amaterasu can be blocked and all type nonsense or jiraiya can use rasengan to block it

but doesn't this same jutsu have feats and hype that shit on Yomi numa?

downing hachibi for one. shitting on kaguya ice technique, burning sasuke in half, KCM Naruto failing to react to it, 1 shotting cerebrus



but what I like though is jiraiya can use rasengan to block it. a technique with speed feats and hype much faster than YN but somehow itachi for example stands no chance of avoiding YN all together, despite kebari senbon being a faster technique than YN

kmt


----------



## Yoko (Jan 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> In all cases he was fighting powerful adversaries, so it's only natural that he built up some chakra in case he needed Kamui. Kakashi isn't an idiot.



The claim that Kakashi happening to have Gedo Mazo-sized chakra on standby at all times is based on nothing.



> There is no visual que for molding and build up chakra, there never has been. There are ques for when someone uses specific Dojutsu that strain their eyes, but that is a totally different thing.



Chakra build-up.

Chakra build-up.



> Sasuke was nether tired nor inexperienced with Mangekyo and Amaterasu, yet he needed to build up chakra to his eye to use it:
> Chakra build-up.



Why are you showing me scans of Sasuke using Amaterasu? Amaterasu causes eye bleeding for every single usage, even with the EMS . . . even with the Rinnegan.  Kamui only caused Kakashi's eye to bleed _once_ out of probably two dozen usages in total.  

Amaterasu has shown to be a more straining and time consuming jutsu as far as initial casting time.



> I said size appears to be less of a factor than amount of uses.



We have a quote where Kakashi specifically highlights size over usages.  There is little basis to make that assumption.



> Sasuke coughing blood the more he used Mangekyo



Due to Susano'o. 



> Kakashi himself having trouble moving properly after using Kamui in the Kages Arc.



Again, back to using outdated feats.



> And indeed towards the end of the war arc the manga very clearly tells us that he was suffering from those drawbacks as he is now so blind and physically enfeebled that Gaara needed to carry his ass into point blank range for him to be able to use Kamui effectively.



Yeah, and that was Kakashi's 8th and final Kamui usage (not counting any Kamui used before getting recharged) in addition to several Raikiri before that.  Being tired kind of does that to you.  Good thing Kakashi doesn't start BD threads with injuries and a droplet of his stamina remaining.

You're basically implying that the Jiraiya I should envision in every BD thread involves the iteration of him with no arm and six chakra rods sticking out of his back.  Because that's exactly what you're doing here; using a tired version of Kakashi and then pointing out the obvious - "he's tired."  I guess bisected Tsunade and bedridden Orochimaru are the new norm, too.



> Dude stop being intellectually dishonest, illness was not the issue highlighted there, it was his eyesight going to shit right after a usage of Tsukuyomi.



Zetsu flat out said "it wasn't necessarily" due to overusing Sharingan, and we later get a full elaboration on his terminal illness.  Acknowledging the manga isn't intellectual dishonesty.



> Straw Man, I said range is the issue here, not accuracy. Kakashi factually had the accuracy to warp a Human Target in close range, proved by him warping an explosive clone; just accept when your wrong instead of attacking straw man.





> Straw Man, never said that. I said Kakashi even back in the Suna-Arc had the necessary skills to warp a person in close range. Factually he did.



How is it a strawman if I am literally quoting you verbatim from a previous post? It's scary that you can deny writing something that I literally copied and pasted straight out of your previous post.  I am not paraphrasing what you said - this is word for word:

Turrin:  "Suna Arc Kakashi was able to _*quickly*_ warp a human sized explosive clone. So he certainly had the necessary skills." 

We were addressing speed in that exchange, evidenced by your usage of the word "quickly" and the entire context of that discussion.



> Again Sasuke recovered from Liager chop quick enough to use his MS, I see no reason why Kakashi couldn't recover from a kick



It doesn't matter if you "see no reason he couldn't recover."   The manga showed us Kakashi still on the ground after Kakuzu released his hearts - that is a fact.  We aren't debating Kakashi's durability, but whether or not he had a chance to use Kamui - and he didn't.  He was still on the ground after the hearts were released.

Because he hadn't recovered prior to the release of the hearts, he did not have a chance to use Kamui.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 21, 2016)

Yoko said:


> The claim that Kakashi happening to have Gedo Mazo-sized chakra on standby at all times is based on nothing.


It's not strange for Kakashi to build up a large amount of chakra against world ending threats.



> Chakra build-up.
> 
> Chakra build-up.


Yeah I don't see anything in ether of those scans. 



> Why are you showing me scans of Sasuke using Amaterasu? Amaterasu causes eye bleeding for every single usage, even with the EMS . . . even with the Rinnegan. Kamui only caused Kakashi's eye to bleed once out of probably two dozen usages in total.
> 
> Amaterasu has shown to be a more straining and time consuming jutsu as far as initial casting time.


Straw Man, the point of me showing that scan was to show a Dojutsu user needs to build chakra to their eyes to use Mangekyo



> We have a quote where Kakashi specifically highlights size over usages. There is little basis to make that assumption.


This is an outright lie. He highlights size, not size over usages.



> Due to Susano'o.


Susano'o is a Mangekyo Technique.



> Again, back to using outdated feats.


Prove it.



> Yeah, and that was Kakashi's 8th and final Kamui usage (not counting any Kamui used before getting recharged) in addition to several Raikiri before that. Being tired kind of does that to you. Good thing Kakashi doesn't start BD threads with injuries and a droplet of his stamina remaining.
> 
> You're basically implying that the Jiraiya I should envision in every BD thread involves the iteration of him with no arm and six chakra rods sticking out of his back. Because that's exactly what you're doing here; using a tired version of Kakashi and then pointing out the obvious - "he's tired." I guess bisected Tsunade and bedridden Orochimaru are the new norm, too.


So basically your argument is Kakashi was magically immune to MS side effects until right before that Last MS usage? What kind of Bullshit is that.



> Zetsu flat out said "it wasn't necessarily" due to overusing Sharingan, and we later get a full elaboration on his terminal illness. Acknowledging the manga isn't intellectual dishonesty.


Zetsu's said Itachi entire performance wasn't due to simply over using Sharingan, we are directly shown Itachi failing to avoid the Shuriken trap was due to eyesight issues. We are told by Kakashi himself that Mangekyo degrades eyesight. We are told in the Data-Book. And so on.

Yes you ignoring this is intellectually dishonest as shit.



> How is it a strawman if I am literally quoting you verbatim from a previous post? It's scary that you can deny writing something that I literally copied and pasted straight out of your previous post. I am not paraphrasing what you said - this is word for word:
> 
> Turrin: "Suna Arc Kakashi was able to quickly warp a human sized explosive clone. So he certainly had the necessary skills."
> 
> We were addressing speed in that exchange, evidenced by your usage of the word "quickly" and the entire context of that discussion.


No Yoko, you tried to claim Kakashi lacked the skill to warp Kakuzu, I said he already showed the skill to warp a Human target in the Suna Arc. Than you started attacking this BS straw-man, arguing that I was saying that Kakashi's skill with Kamui in the Suna and Immortals arc was the same was his skill with Kamui in the war, which is not true. 



> It doesn't matter if you "see no reason he couldn't recover." The manga showed us Kakashi still on the ground after Kakuzu released his hearts - that is a fact. We aren't debating Kakashi's durability, but whether or not he had a chance to use Kamui - and he didn't. He was still on the ground after the hearts were released.


Being on the ground doesn't mean shit, I repeat for the third time Sasuke was on the ground after Ei's liager chop and still used MS right after that.

I also must remind you that this entire discussion is only even working, because I'm being nice enough to humor your claim that the Masked Beasts would still work with Kakuzu warped away into a different dimension, which you really have no proof of whatsoever.


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## Turrin (Jan 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Let's take a highly dubious position, and say you're correct.  _So what?_
> .


A highly dubious position that Mangekyo damages the users eye-sight over time enfeebling them. You mean that highly dubious position that has been proved time and time again, with every Mangekyo user in the history of the manga. That dubious position?



> People makes threads about healthy characters in top condition unless otherwise stated.  Ei has both arms.  Kushina is not post birth with the Kyuubi ripped from her.  Ect.  Then they get their latest feats and knowledge.  So Ei has both arms, and his feats against Madara and Sasuke.  That Ei never technically existed in the manga, but who cares.  If that bothers you, then go make threads with your own conditions, and maybe your gripe will be validated.


So like i'd agree with you, if yah know, we were in a thread that actually had those conditions

But no were in a thread about Yomi Numa discussing Kakashi ability as it was presented in the manga; in-fact your entire post I responded to was framed within the context of what Kakashi was capable of in the manga. Hence my gripe is very valid within the context of this discussion.

What's not valid, is saying Kakashi's Kamui became broken in the manga, and than justifying that by saying well some NBD threads take away drawbacks thus creating fanon versions of characters. 



> Kakashi had a normal sharingan right before the arrow was launched. You can't charge an MS jutsu before turning on your MS. That'd be like prepping a sharingan genjutsu with your sharingan turned off. Impossibru. Tell him that Yoko.


It's not about charging the Jutsu it's about building up the necessary chakra to use the Mangekyo and the Mangekyo Jutsu. And a Ninja absolute can build up chakra to their eyes before activating any Dojutsu, they just need to activate the Dojutsu to use that chakra.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 22, 2016)

> How is it a strawman if I am literally quoting you verbatim from a previous post? It's scary that you can deny writing something that I literally copied and pasted straight out of your previous post. I am not paraphrasing what you said - this is word for word:



Turrin is a the hastiest proponent of revisionist history.


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## Turrin (Jan 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Turrin is a the hastiest proponent of revisionist history.


POW is the hastiest proponent of jumping to bashing in lieu of a real argument


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## Yoko (Jan 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Turrin is a the hastiest proponent of revisionist history.



. . . And for that, I feel I've more than gotten my point across, as the redundancy is at an all time high.  Any that read my rebuttals to the increasingly uncorroborated argument being made in this thread will find the many gaping holes that have been poked into it and will easily recognize the blatant double standards that ever so plague it.

The trend seems to be the more unsubstantiated allegations I disprove (with manga scans in each and every post thus far), my status is upgraded from a "BS'er" to a liar.  The opposition's inability to maintain any form of consistency throughout the multi-page exchange was entertaining while it lasted, but this has gotten toxic enough for me.  To continue when it has escalated this far would betray my integrity as a poster.

Between denying verbatim quotes that were made to hand-waving every piece of evidence presented by creating fan-made mechanics and preaching them as gospel, I must concede to this unprecedented level of obstinacy.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Thank you
> 
> I try
> 
> ...



These people just hate Orochimaru. I made good analysis threads on him that got locked because even the mods (who're meant to be neutral) are Itachi fanboys who didn't want to believe Orochimaru _could_ be stronger than him. If the mods wank something they allow the thread to stay up. If not they lock it. They're biased and unfair. Just look how Marcelle.B has treated me lately. 

On topic anyway, @the-guys-above-arguing-for-Konan, I'm telling you she ain't getting out of Yomi Numa. The paper sticks to the swamp. She's too slow and unalert. She's half asleep in battle. She couldn't react to Z-rank jutsu's like the Aburame Clan blitz and Jiraiya's Katon: fodder no Jutsu. She's weak as hell.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 23, 2016)

Saru said:


> I love how on-topic this whole thread is.



I know lol. This should be locked. All the threads I made that went off topic got locked. Why is this still up. I love how this thread managed to get turned into a debate about how long Kakashi can sustain MS just like every OnePiece thread ends as a Zoro wank thread. I just love it.


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