# Two Aces vs Vista



## Zyrax (Jan 29, 2013)

who wins this?
The same condition and location as the Ace Vs BB fight


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## GrizzlyClaws (Jan 29, 2013)

2 Aces would win.


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## Extravlad (Jan 29, 2013)

Hard battle.

I give to Vista extrem diff.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm sorry, what? How the hell does Vista fight two Aces and not expect to die in the first minute? What am I missing?


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## Mys??lf (Jan 29, 2013)

Aces win low diff
btw , entei is not restricted O.o ?


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## White (Jan 29, 2013)

^^That Vista is massively above him. Vista being able to cross swords with Mihawk, and not getting completely blitzed, is the only feat we need.


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## Skream (Jan 29, 2013)

Snarl said:


> ^^That Vista is massively above him. Vista being able to cross swords with Mihawk, and not getting completely blitzed, is the only feat we need.



Any whitebeard commander could hold him for a minute or 2

2 Aces would be too hard for vista to handle, Aces win mid diff.


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## Jouten (Jan 29, 2013)

I think Ace can hold his own against the other Whitebeard Commanders, don't know why people think that he's weaker than Jozu or Vista. 2 Aces definitely would defeat Vista


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## RF (Jan 29, 2013)

The only way Ace can win here is Entei. 

Vista can block everything else in his arsenal with ranged slashes,and if Ace tries to engage him in CQC,he isn't going to last long. 

Ace with Entei wins depending on how early he uses the ability,loses without it.


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## Imagine (Jan 29, 2013)

Vista gets slaughtered.


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## RF (Jan 29, 2013)

Jouten said:


> don't know why people think that he's weaker than Jozu or Vista.



There are many reasons.

First of all,just the fact that they were aboard back in Roger's era tells a lot about their experience and strength. Their feats are far better than Ace's,both of them stalemated an admiral level fighter,and the fights either ended in a stalemate or loss *due to their distraction*. However,Ace was almost broken apart from a single punch when he lost his fruit,and Akainu made him his bitch without even trying. If he tries to even get close to Vista,a single haki slash would end his life.

He was obviously an exception between the top 5 commanders,since he only got the 2nd division place due to it being free. 

He was a pirate no less than 2 years.

The gap between him,and Jozu,Marco and Vista is quite large in fact.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Jan 29, 2013)

Vista gets smashed with low to mid difficulty, I don't even need to explain myself.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Jan 29, 2013)

But it's two Aces, Red Guardian.


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## RF (Jan 29, 2013)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> But it's two Aces, Red Guardian.



Still giving Vista the benefit of doubt unless Ace immediately starts with Entei.


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 29, 2013)

Red Guardian said:


> Akainu made him his bitch without even trying. If he tries to even get close to Vista,a single haki slash would end his life.



Akainu mentioned having the DF advantage, I do believe that he could give a medium difficulty fight to Aokiji due to better DF matchup.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Jan 29, 2013)

I don't think he deserves the benefit of the doubt, he clashed with Mihawk, and didn't get instantly destroyed, a feat which post time skip Zoro could pull of with ease.


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## αce (Jan 29, 2013)

PoP thought 3 Ace's would lose to Vista
Someone get him on an IM chat system and see his response to this thread


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## Bonly (Jan 29, 2013)

Two Ace's would win. I believe one Ace would put up a good fight and it would be high diff either way,add a second Ace and it tips the scales. Also Vista is banned.


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## Luis209 (Jan 29, 2013)

1 Ace was capable of counter attack a attack from Aokiji. I think 2 Ace's would be too much for Vista.


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## Jouten (Jan 29, 2013)

Red Guardian said:


> There are many reasons.
> 
> First of all,just the fact that they were aboard back in Roger's era tells a lot about their experience and strength. Their feats are far better than Ace's,both of them stalemated an admiral level fighter,and the fights either ended in a stalemate or loss *due to their distraction*. However,Ace was almost broken apart from a single punch when he lost his fruit,and Akainu made him his bitch without even trying. If he tries to even get close to Vista,a single haki slash would end his life.
> 
> ...



Ace stalemated with Aokiji, though


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## White (Jan 29, 2013)

Let me put it another way. Ace at this point is barely above PS Luffy, could two post skip Luffys defeat someone who was given the responsibility of holding off at the very least an Admiral level fighter? No they would get slaughtered. The majority of this forum agrees that an Admiral level fighter could blitz the entire strawhat crew, so why is it that most of you are saying Vista loses _horribly _. Either you think Vista is far, far, _far_ weaker than Marco and Jozu or else your idea of powerscaling is very warped.


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## Bepper (Jan 29, 2013)

This isn't even a contest, Aces takes it low/mid difficulty ...


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## ZeroWolf123 (Jan 29, 2013)

Isn't vista banned?

2 Aces should win.


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## JoJo (Jan 30, 2013)

Jouten said:


> Ace stalemated with Aokiji, though



 Only because of nature of there respective DFs.

You also skipped the fact that ace was murked by akainu who is a nit stronger than Aokiji.


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## SsjAzn (Jan 30, 2013)

Vista wins.


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## Shinthia (Jan 30, 2013)

JoJo said:


> *Only because of nature of there respective DFs.*
> 
> You also skipped the fact that ace was murked by akainu who is a nit stronger than Aokiji.



yes people should also consider or mention that while saying Akainou stomp Ace.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Jan 30, 2013)

Obviously two Aces win this. Probably mid difficulty.


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## Heretic (Jan 30, 2013)

Vista gets stomped hard.

Proof is required that an admiral level fighter can stomp Ace without a handicap.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Mar 20, 2013)

Vista high diffs two aces

Though I disagree with Vista defeating three Aces


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## Mihawk (Mar 21, 2013)

Jouten said:


> Ace stalemated with Aokiji, though



One shouldn't ignore the circumstances of that clash. It was a single moment of a clash of projectiles, and ranged attacks. It wasn't a stalemate, and it definitely can't be compared to the brief yet more substantial clashes of Vista/Mihawk, Jozu/Aokiji, Kizaru/Marco etc. 

Also, it was pretty much Oda letting Ace do something cool before he killed him off. 
You don't honestly think that having him wipe out marine fodder, back to back with Luffy is somehow badass enough as something he does before he gets killed, do you?




Snarl said:


> Let me put it another way. Ace at this point is barely above PS Luffy, could two post skip Luffys defeat someone who was given the responsibility of holding off at the very least an Admiral level fighter? No they would get slaughtered. The majority of this forum agrees that an Admiral level fighter could blitz the entire strawhat crew, so why is it that most of you are saying Vista loses _horribly _. Either you think Vista is far, far, _far_ weaker than Marco and Jozu or else your idea of powerscaling is very warped.



Yea, pretty much this. Although I personally think that Ace is still stronger than any of the M3 members(which makes Vista much stronger than any of them individually), I agree with everything else. 

Powerscaling plays a huge factor here in a fight like this, and Vista is most assuredly superior to Ace in every way. 

Still, I'll give two Ace's the benefit of a doubt, and I think that if they coordinate well, and spam their larger scale attacks in quick succession, such as Hiken, or have prep techniques around like Hotarubi, or Hidaruma, they can pull it off at mid-high diff, IF they play it smart.

Vista will lose, but he definitely doesn't to a stomp at all. He might take one Ace down with him, and leave the other with some injuries. 

Vista has the feats, hype, experience, history, and haki prowess, to make him superior to Ace individually, in every regard.

Ace was definitely weaker than Jozu & Vista. Him being weaker than Vista has already been proven, and him being weaker than Jozu isn't even something that people can attempt to dispute, as there is literally a tier worthy difference between Jozu & Ace.


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## cry77 (Mar 21, 2013)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> 2 Aces would win.





MeMyselfandI said:


> Aces win low diff
> btw , entei is not restricted O.o ?





Skream said:


> Any whitebeard commander could hold him for a minute or 2
> 
> 2 Aces would be too hard for vista to handle, Aces win mid diff.





Jouten said:


> I think Ace can hold his own against the other Whitebeard Commanders, don't know why people think that he's weaker than Jozu or Vista. 2 Aces definitely would defeat Vista





Imagine said:


> Vista gets slaughtered.





Kirin Thunderclap said:


> Vista gets smashed with low to mid difficulty, I don't even need to explain myself.





GrizzlyClaws said:


> But it's two Aces, Red Guardian.





Lord Melkor said:


> Akainu mentioned having the DF advantage, I do believe that he could give a medium difficulty fight to Aokiji due to better DF matchup.





Bonly said:


> Two Ace's would win. I believe one Ace would put up a good fight and it would be high diff either way,add a second Ace and it tips the scales. Also Vista is banned.





Luis209 said:


> 1 Ace was capable of counter attack a attack from Aokiji. I think 2 Ace's would be too much for Vista.





Bepper said:


> This isn't even a contest, Aces takes it low/mid difficulty ...





ZeroWolf123 said:


> Isn't vista banned?
> 
> 2 Aces should win.





Qhorin Halfhand said:


> Obviously two Aces win this. Probably mid difficulty.





Heretic said:


> Vista gets stomped hard.
> 
> Proof is required that an admiral level fighter can stomp Ace without a handicap.


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## RF (Mar 22, 2013)

Honestly,this is one of the most stupid cases of double standards in the OL and OPBD. Replace Vista with Marco or Jozu in this scenario,and most of you (bar a few of course) would be saying that any of the two would stomp,so why are people saying that Vista loses _horribly_? I don't see a single thing in the manga indicating that Vista is on a whole different level than the other two,considering his feats are equally as impressive as the feats of his fellow commanders. (All of them stalled an admiral level fighter for an extended period of time,and unlike the other two,Vista didn't get one-shot due to a distraction)

As it seems,most of you are just throwing your subjective opinions on a character you don't like,completely neglecting manga facts,and having no proof of your own to base your arguments off;and frankly said,we have no use of such posters.


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## zorokuma (Mar 22, 2013)

the 2 aces win low diff...what the hell @ this match up.


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## zorokuma (Mar 22, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Honestly,this is one of the most stupid cases of double standards in the OL and OPBD. Replace Vista with Marco or Jozu in this scenario,and most of you (bar a few of course) would be saying that any of the two would stomp,so why are people saying that Vista loses _horribly_? I don't see a single thing in the manga indicating that Vista is on a whole different level than the other two,considering his feats are equally as impressive as the feats of his fellow commanders. (All of them stalled an admiral level fighter for an extended period of time,and unlike the other two,Vista didn't get one-shot due to a distraction)
> 
> As it seems,most of you are just throwing your subjective opinions on a character you don't like,completely neglecting manga facts,and having no proof of your own to base your arguments off;and frankly said,we have no use of such posters.



vista does not have the durability jozu and marco have. he doesnt have a diamond fruit or a self healing fruit.


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## RF (Mar 22, 2013)

zorokuma said:


> vista does not have the durability jozu and marco have. he doesnt have a diamond fruit or a self healing fruit.



Yes,but he is more impressive in the offensive department. The human body has basic resistance against blunt damage,and Marco and Jozu specialize in dealing that kind of damage. However,cuts are a completely different story. Vista's sword cuts are a lot deadlier and efficient,so it makes up for his inferior defense.


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## zorokuma (Mar 22, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Yes,but he is more impressive in the offensive department. The human body has basic resistance against blunt damage,and Marco and Jozu specialize in dealing that kind of damage. However,cuts are a completely different story. Vista's sword cuts are a lot deadlier and efficient,so it makes up for his inferior defense.



well from what we have seen, ace has more attack power than vista. 2 aces...2 entei...what is vista gonna do??


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## cry77 (Mar 22, 2013)

Is ace gonna bust out entei before or after he gets sliced to pieces?


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## RF (Mar 22, 2013)

zorokuma said:


> well from what we have seen, ace has more attack power than vista. 2 aces...2 entei...what is vista gonna do??



You're completely disregarding the conditions of the match-up...

The OP said that the conditions are the same as the conditions of the Ace Vs Blackbeard fight.

That means Ace is in character. Vista can cut most of Ace's long ranged techniques with hakified ranged slashes,and he should be able to easily avoid Hidaruma or Higan considering that his movement speed is definitely higher than Van Augurs. Ace HAS to fight Vista in CQC to successfully put him down,and one slash is all Vista needs to kill Ace.

By the time Vista kills one Ace,the other would start to panic and use Entei. As for how Vista responds to Entei,well Mihawk was easily able to cut an iceberg at worst as large as Entei,and if not several times bigger,so Vista should be capable of pulling that off as well if we go by powerscaling,but obviously with more difficulty than Mihawk had.


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## cry77 (Mar 22, 2013)

Using entei as a way for ace to win because it's so big is like saying he could beat rayliegh or mihawk with it as well..big and flashy moves arent instant wins


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## Imagine (Mar 22, 2013)

No but two of them are.


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## Coruscation (Mar 22, 2013)

So two Luffys beat up Rayleigh any day, right?

Vista should be multiple times deadlier than Ace. It's well known that swordsmen pretty much defeat their opponent with a single hit if they land it cleanly. By virtue of being able to go at it with Mihawk in close quarters combat it's virtually impossible that Vista isn't substantially superior to Ace in all kinds of physicality and Haki usage. That also means the requirements to take down Ace in a single hit are even lower than they'd be for someone close to or at his own level. Single attacks from a distance do little to nothing against someone who should be able to deal with Mihawk's ranged arsenal. Double are only causing moderate trouble. On the contrary we now know that putting Haki into ranged sword slashes is easily done, which makes Ace even more vulnerable. Finally there is no reason that Vista shouldn't be able to deal with Ace's trump card. That high class swordsmen can deal and deal with large scale damage quite effectively is a safe inference. Two at once wouldn't be a walk in the park but it's questionable both if it would get to that point and if it would manage to finish Vista.

The odds are stacked in Vista's favor.


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## HaxHax (Mar 22, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> That means Ace is in character. Vista can cut most of Ace's long ranged techniques with hakified ranged slashes



???

Only Kinemon has displayed fire-cutting abilities - and that was not through the use of haki.


Ace is (as an extension of blackbeard) one of the most underrated characters on this forum. People refuse to believe that Blackbeard is monstrously strong simply because he doesn't act like Zoro or Mihawk. And so, because Blackbeard defeated Ace, people think that Ace isn't worth two shits.

Blackbeard > Vista. There, I said it. This match-up isn't even a contest. Aces take it.


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## Alaude (Mar 22, 2013)

I would say that Aces would win since there are 2 of them and I think it's too much for Vista still not sure.


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## Sure (Mar 22, 2013)

Double standards are being exposed again. 

The Majority don't consider Ace miles ahead of Luffy. (Some say they're on the same level). Yet they say Vista is the toughest opponent the SHs can take.
Yet, people are saying 2 Aces takes Vista EASY or Medium....


OTT:  I'd say high diff for Ace as well. He still has some inexperienced reliance on his Logia powers. Even though Vista has been shown to be a more experienced WB member than Ace, his lack of overall impact on the war (In contrast to Jozu/Marco) suggests he really shouldn't be put in the same group as them two. We either overate Vista or we have a double standard being formed.


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## blueframe01 (Mar 23, 2013)

2 Ace would Barbecue Vista with mid difficulty at most. There is nothing to suggest that Vista is much stronger than current Zoro. Ace, being a year older than Luffy at the time of his death, should in all possibility should still be a little ahead of Luffy (considering that both of them had crazy growth rate, being 1 year senior makes a different). The two factors should put Ace around Vistas level, with Vista a little above him. Having 2 Aces in the battle would be an overkill in favor of the duo.


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## RF (Mar 23, 2013)

HaxHax said:


> ???
> 
> Only Kinemon has displayed fire-cutting abilities - and that was not through the use of haki.



Any top notch swordsman can obviously cut fire. Basically,what you're saying is that even though Vista is able to equally cross swords with Mihawk, who can effortlessly cut humongous icebergs from who knows how many kilometers away,can't cut fire. I hope you understand how idiotic that sounds.



HaxHax said:


> Blackbeard > Vista.



Great debating skills.Blackbeard is >Vista because you said so. 

As I already said,people just seem to state their subjective opinions without anything to back them up. I,on the other hand can prove you why Vista is superior,and it's fairly easy actually.

Whitebeard who was literally about to die,and was missing HALF of his face for good 10 minutes, made a fool out of Blackbeard by easily striking him down and was ready to kill him,while Vista was fighting with a serious Mihawk,who is vastly superior to Halfbeard,for an extended amount of time and he even earned Mihawk's respect. That itself is enough for me to say Vista > Blackbeard.

Now let me see your great arguments please.


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## cry77 (Mar 23, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> So two Luffys beat up Rayleigh any day, right?
> 
> Vista should be multiple times deadlier than Ace. It's well known that swordsmen pretty much defeat their opponent with a single hit if they land it cleanly. By virtue of being able to go at it with Mihawk in close quarters combat it's virtually impossible that Vista isn't substantially superior to Ace in all kinds of physicality and Haki usage. That also means the requirements to take down Ace in a single hit are even lower than they'd be for someone close to or at his own level. Single attacks from a distance do little to nothing against someone who should be able to deal with Mihawk's ranged arsenal. Double are only causing moderate trouble. *On the contrary we now know that putting Haki into ranged sword slashes is easily done, *which makes Ace even more vulnerable. Finally there is no reason that Vista shouldn't be able to deal with Ace's trump card. That high class swordsmen can deal and deal with large scale damage quite effectively is a safe inference. Two at once wouldn't be a walk in the park but it's questionable both if it would get to that point and if it would manage to finish Vista.
> 
> The odds are stacked in Vista's favor.


everything points to the contrary. We have never seen haki being imbued into air itself


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## cry77 (Mar 23, 2013)

Imagine said:


> No but two of them are.


so two enteis would kill WB? or even hit him in the first place?


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## Girl I don't care (Mar 23, 2013)

one ace stomp


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## cry77 (Mar 23, 2013)

Girl said:


> one ace stomp


enttei solos the world amirite?


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## Whimsy (Mar 23, 2013)

I see one of the Ace's dying horribly while the other one lobs an entei at the back of Vista's head.


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## RF (Mar 23, 2013)

Whimsy said:


> I see one of the Ace's dying horribly while the other one lobs an entei at the back of Vista's head.



I don't know. Vista only needs one clean cut to kill Ace,and he should be capable of imitating Mihawk's iceberg cutting feat to slash Entei in two. 

In my honest opinion,I'm leaning towards Vista but with no less than high-extreme difficulty.


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## Coruscation (Mar 23, 2013)

> everything points to the contrary. We have never seen haki being imbued into air itself



No, we've actually seen Zoro cut Monet, a Logia, from a distance. It's not arguably anymore.


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## Kishido (Mar 23, 2013)

Damn Ace is underrated


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## HaxHax (Mar 23, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Any top notch swordsman can obviously cut fire. Basically,what you're saying is that even though Vista is able to equally cross swords with Mihawk, who can effortlessly cut humongous icebergs from who knows how many kilometers away,can't cut fire. I hope you understand how idiotic that sounds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And Crocodile who got beat by pre-skip Luffy.. blocked Mihawk's attack and sent Doflamingo flying. It's not proof of anything. Don't pretend that you are being objective, because you are not.

And just because somebody is stronger does not mean they are capable of doing everything that someone weaker can do.


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## Shinthia (Mar 23, 2013)

KiShiDo said:


> Damn Ace is underrated



My thought exactly.


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## White (Mar 23, 2013)

KiShiDo said:


> Damn Ace is underrated



*No he isnt. If people want to think two Aces can beat Vista I couldnt care less, but when they go on to say things like an Admiral can low diff the strawhats after it then its pure nonsense.*


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## RF (Mar 23, 2013)

HaxHax said:


> And Crocodile who got beat by pre-skip Luffy.. blocked Mihawk's attack and sent Doflamingo flying.



What?

He blocked a single attack that was aimed at Luffy,and he sent Doflamingo flying with literally zero damage.

Don't compare that to Vista who actually fought Mihawk for an extended amount of time,and Mihawk declared it a stalemate. And you know why he called it a stalemate? Cause Vista ain't a pushover that he can one shoot,unlike Crocodile.



HaxHax said:


> Don't pretend that you are being objective, because you are not.



Yes,I am. My entire previous argument consisted of nothing but manga proof,unlike your argument which was basically saying " Blackbeard is massively strong because he beat Ace,but people think he isn't so strong,because Ace is horribly underrated because he was beaten by Blackbeard who is massively strong"



HaxHax said:


> And just because somebody is stronger does not mean they are capable of doing everything that someone weaker can do.



I don't know whether you're referring to me claiming that Vista can replicate Mihawk's feat,or that he can cut fire so I'm going to address both points.

Vista could cut a similarly sized iceberg if we go by powerscaling,because Mihawk was capable of easily doing so,so Vista could do something at least as impressive,but with higher difficulty of course.

As for him cutting fire,well,I believe that every high high tier (or low top in my opinion) swordsman can do so. Of course,I have nothing to back it up,but neither have you,to prove the opposite,so I guess we just don't agree here and that's it.


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## RF (Mar 23, 2013)

Okay,I'm quite certain that the majority of you would say that Marco would easily solo 2 Ace's.

All I want is for you to show me why Marco is THAT much above Vista,and I will forfeit.


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## Sintra (Mar 23, 2013)

Two Aces wins.
Vista has no feats besides his rank in the WB pirates and fighting a non serious mihawk


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## Coruscation (Mar 23, 2013)

> Okay,I'm quite certain that the majority of you would say that Marco would easily solo 2 Ace's.
> 
> All I want is for you to show me why Marco is THAT much above Vista,and I will forfeit.



I think Vista would likely win with mid to highish difficulty and Marco with lowish but I can probably explain people's train of thought with this. Some fighters have abilities that make them virtually invulnerable to weaker enemies unless they have special ways of getting around them. Marco is one such. As much faster and stronger as Vista may be he is still vulnerable to Ace's attacks, like a normal human. Marco might as well be invincible to Ace on top of his great superiority in physical power. So naturally there would be considerably less difficulty involved in Marco beating Ace and his clone than there would be for Vista.


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## Typhon (Mar 23, 2013)

???

Hold up a sec. What exactly has Vista shown to even claim he could beat 2 Aces? It can't be Vista holding off a non-serious Mihawk who was watching Luffy the entire time.


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## RF (Mar 23, 2013)

Omnation said:


> ???
> 
> Hold up a sec. What exactly has Vista shown to even claim he could beat 2 Aces? It can't be Vista holding off a non-serious Mihawk who was watching Luffy the entire time.



Hold up a sec. What exactly has Marco shown to even claim he could be a top tier? It can't be Marco holding off a non-serious Kizaru who was giving sarcastic remarks during the entire fight.

Oh wait. It is.


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## Shinthia (Mar 23, 2013)

Omnation said:


> ???
> 
> Hold up a sec. What exactly has Vista shown to even claim he could beat 2 Aces? It can't be Vista holding off a non-serious Mihawk who was watching Luffy the entire time.



Dont you know if u cant noticeably damage an Admiral while he is off guard you can beat 2 Ace no prob.


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## RF (Mar 23, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Dont you know if u cant noticeably damage an Admiral while he is off guard you can beat 2 Ace no prob.



Completely the same scenario happened with Whitebeard and Aokiji when they encountered each other in the plaza. Whitebeard failed to inflict any kind of damage,even though it was stated he used haki.

Does that mean Whitebeard is not a top tier ?


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## Shinthia (Mar 23, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Completely the same scenario happened with Whitebeard and Aokiji when they encountered each other in the plaza. Whitebeard failed to inflict any kind of damage,even though it was stated he used haki.
> 
> Does that mean Whitebeard is not a top tier ?



If WB did not had the hype he had,was not said to be WSM , did not beat the crap out off Akaino and *only had that feat to go with, then yes,*that would mean WB is not a top tier.


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## RF (Mar 23, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> If WB did not had the hype he had,was not said to be WSM , did not beat the crap out off Akaino and *only had that feat to go with, then yes,*that would mean WB is not a top tier.



Yes,but the thing is,that is not Vista's only feat. Mihawk requested to end the battle and called it a stalemate. That itself means that Vista can likely push Mihawk to mid difficulty,since Mihawk simply would have one shot him otherwise. And in my book,anyone who could push Mihawk,or an admiral for that matter to mid or high difficulty,is immediately classified as a "low-top tier"


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## Typhon (Mar 23, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Hold up a sec. What exactly has Marco shown to even claim he could be a top tier? It can't be Marco holding off a non-serious Kizaru who was giving sarcastic remarks during the entire fight.
> 
> Oh wait. It is.



What does Vista have? Lets see:

1.) 3rd commander of the Whitebeard pirates
2.) Held off a non-serious Mihawk who was able to watch someone else while fighting. (That says something about the power difference)
3.) Couldn't even wound a true top tier when he got a free shot.

I'm calling bull shit on Vista beating two Aces. He would have a hard time with one as it is. Ace isn't considered remotely close to the other commanders when he really is. He got one shotted by Akainu, the same guy who almost took WB's head off. Jozu and the others barely had better showings. Jozu also got one shotted, Vista couldn't do shit, and Marco got cuffed by a VA.

Ace fought BlackBeard just fine who I know for a fact is stronger then Vista even at the time. How? Lets see...

1.) Strong enough to be a commander along with Vista back in the day.
2.) Scarred Shanks (Did both without a DF to boot.)
3.) Took an assault from WB and was up fighting Sengoku and Garp later.

And above all else, ACE WASN'T IN PEAK SHAPE AND STILL MATCHED AN ADMIRAL. 

Vista is so overrated it's ridiculous, just like the other top commanders. It also doesn't help that Ace and Luffy are so underrated on this forum.


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## White (Mar 23, 2013)

*Of course Mihawk werent fighting seriously. Its not like he was in the middle of a damn war or something.

And neither could Marco before you start pulling out the Akainu feat. There was clearly extenuating circumstances surrounding the whole moment, if Marco can react and send an Admiral flying.*


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## RF (Mar 23, 2013)

Omnation said:


> What does Vista have? Lets see:
> 
> 1.) 3rd commander of the Whitebeard pirates
> 2.) Held off a non-serious Mihawk who was able to watch someone else while fighting. (That says something about the power difference)
> 3.) Couldn't even wound a true top tier when he got a free shot.



1) Okay.

2) Mihawk called it a stalemate. That means he knows that Vista is powerful enough to give him a legitimate fight,otherwise he would have one shot him and proceeded to pursue Luffy.

3) Neither could Whitebeard,nor Marco for that instance. You can't base off such things by one hit,Whitebeard failed to injure Aokiji and Kizaru,yet he was easily capable of getting past Akainu's intag. If Vista were to fail 5/5 times,yes I would consider him fodder against an admiral,but he only tried once,in a chaotic war situation,against a logia. Honestly,this feat is overrated.



Omnation said:


> I'm calling bull shit on Vista beating two Aces. He would have a hard time with one as it is. Ace isn't considered remotely close to the other commanders when he really is. He got one shotted by Akainu, the same guy who almost took WB's head off. Jozu and the others barely had better showings. Jozu also got one shotted, Vista couldn't do shit, and Marco got cuffed by a VA.



Except that Ace is not as powerful as the other commanders. You're trying to argue that some brat that was in the NW for 2 years is as powerful as the peers that accompanied Whitebeard even during Roger's era,before Ace was even born. 

Also,there is a reason why Oda made the commanders distracted,but there was no such thing going against Ace. It's because the commanders can fight an admiral legitimately,while Ace could not. ANYONE,in this manga could be one shot by an admiral if they loosen their guard. They're not the most lethal combat force in the world for no reason. Jozu fought the person that could freeze him by touch in CQC for an entire chapter,and nobody had the upper hand.
Ace on the other hand,got outright fodderized when he tried to take on an admiral himself.

Also,Marco getting chained by a VA is not as negative as you make it out to be. His father's innards were full of magma,and he completely left his guard down in a war. Given the circumstances,even an admiral would have been caught.



Omnation said:


> Ace fought BlackBeard just fine who I know for a fact is stronger then Vista even at the time. How? Lets see...
> 
> 1.) Strong enough to be a commander along with Vista back in the day.
> 2.) Scarred Shanks (Did both without a DF to boot.)
> 3.) Took an assault from WB and was up fighting Sengoku and Garp later.



Okay,lets see these so called "facts"

1) So what if he was capable of becoming a division commander? 
Curiel and Marco were both division commanders as well,and yet one was ridiculously stronger than the other. Them having the same rank means jacksquat. Oda has stated in a SBS that Number of division=/=strength of the commander. They only have the same authority.

2) Oh yes,because we know that fight in and out,with all the explicit details. 
Hell,we don't even know when it happened,Shanks could have been a lot weaker than his current self.

3) Oh,you mean was made a complete fool by a Whitebeard that was literally about to die,and lacked a half of his face for 10 minutes.

And why don't you mention the little fact that Blackbeard got Whitebeard's fruit when he fought Sengoku? If I can even call that a fight. That was basically Blackbeard eating up Sengoku's shockwaves,and then blocking one of them. Did Garp even do something relevant in that fight?



Omnation said:


> Vista is so overrated it's ridiculous, just like the other top commanders. It also doesn't help that Ace and Luffy are so underrated on this forum.



Nope. They are exactly where they are supposed to be,and you are massively overrating Ace and Luffy. Even some of the best posters such as Coruscation and Pimp of Pimps agree on Vista's standing,and the standing of the top 3 Whitebeard commanders in general.


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## Typhon (Mar 23, 2013)

Snarl said:


> *Of course Mihawk werent fighting seriously. Its not like he was in the middle of a damn war or something.
> 
> And neither could Marco before you start pulling out the Akainu feat. There was clearly extenuating circumstances surrounding the whole moment, if Marco can react and send an Admiral flying.*



Neither Kizaru or Aokiji were serious when Marco kicked them. Akainu was.


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## White (Mar 23, 2013)

Omnation said:


> Neither Kizaru or Aokiji were serious when Marco kicked them. Akainu was.



*Why wouldnt they be serious? Hes the first mate of the Worlds Strongest Man. Kizaru has never shown a serious complexion even when he was standing feet away from Whitebeard himself. 

And Aokiji wasnt even able to sense Marcos attack, when he tried to kill Luffy, someone who was given a top priority after Whitebeards and Aces death *


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## Forcer (Mar 23, 2013)

I would give it to Ace, i don't think theres any significant difference in strength between both of them


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## Shinthia (Mar 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Yes,but the thing is,that is not Vista's only feat. Mihawk requested to end the battle and called it a stalemate. That itself means that Vista can likely push Mihawk to mid difficulty,since Mihawk simply would have one shot him otherwise. And in my book,anyone who could push Mihawk,or an admiral for that matter to mid or high difficulty,is immediately classified as a "low-top tier"


Holding an casual Mihawk for few sec and not got one shooted does not make him stronger than 2 Ace. That means Vista is strong enough to be a true commander of WB pirates. Vista does not have feats or hype that will make him so far above Ace. I see both of them at the same level.

and plz, dont go to the tier list. It differs from poster to poster hugely.


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## Yonkou (Mar 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Also,there is a reason why Oda made the commanders distracted,*but there was no such thing* going against Ace.



But clearly there was and just because you choose to ignore it doesn't make it untrue. Selective reading is being exhibited here. The commanders were distracted yes, however if their reactions were good enough there was still the possibility, however slim it was, that they could've avoided their hits. Oda put Ace in such a position that it was impossible for him to avoid a hit as his whole goal was to sacrifice himself to protect Luffy. Oda also endeavored to highlight the DF disadvantage Ace was subject to. Akainu himself obviously thought it was a point worth mentioning.



Sakazuki said:


> It's because the commanders can fight an admiral legitimately,while Ace could not.



Since we've established the previous statement to be false your logic no longer holds. If anything Oda showing Ace and Aokiji clashing, out of the blue, when it really didnt need to happen and wouldnt have happened if it was not within his power seems to suggest the contrary to what you are saying. This was right before the sequence of events with Akainu where his DF superiority is highlighted and Oda creates a set of circumstances where Ace MUST take a hit from Akainu.

Ace takes a hit from Akainu and is one shotted. On the other hand Jozu takes a hit from Aokiji and is one shotted.




Sakazuki said:


> 3) Oh,you mean was made a complete fool by a Whitebeard that was literally about to die,and lacked a half of his face for 10 minutes.



That same half-faced Whitebeard was the one that effectively put down Akainu.


It would be nice if you would look at things objectively and not omit the details that don't add up with your reasoning.


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## RF (Mar 24, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Holding an casual Mihawk for few sec and not got one shooted does not make him stronger than 2 Ace.



 First of all,it was not 2 seconds,it was a legitimate battle,which Mihawk decided to call a stalemate,because he couldn't win easily. Meanwhile,Ace gets smacked like a bitch by Yami Teach,whom Mihawk can most likely fodderize,and an admiral level fighter wipes the floor with him,although I will note that there was an elemental advantage in play. (even though I highly doubt that the outcome of the battle would have been different without the advantage)




Lionel Messi said:


> That means Vista is strong enough to be a true commander of WB pirates.



Curiel is also as true WB commander and he was fighting equally with Moriah.



Lionel Messi said:


> Vista does not have feats or hype that will make him so far above Ace. I see both of them at the same level.



Vista has the hype of being the strongest swordsman of the Whitebeard pirates,Marco was confident that he could stop an admiral level fighter in his tracks (which he did),he was praised by Mihawk,and he was on Whitebeard's ship during Gold Roger's era.

Ace's hype is jackshit compared to his.

As for feats,Vista was able to equally fight an admiral level fighter for a good amount of time,and it ended in a stalemate,while Ace was slapped around by a fighter faaaaaar below admiral level. That's the only feat we need to say Vista>>Ace.

They are not equal. Not even close. Do you believe Ace and Jozu are nearly equal as well?

Because I don't see manga proof that Vista is far below Jozu. 

Honestly,Ace is the most overrated character in this section. smfh


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## Shinthia (Mar 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> First of all,it was not 2 seconds,it was a legitimate battle,which Mihawk decided to call a stalemate,because he couldn't win easily. Meanwhile,Ace gets smacked like a bitch by Yami Teach,whom Mihawk can most likely fodderize,and an admiral level fighter wipes the floor with him,although I will note that there was an elemental advantage in play. (even though I highly doubt that the outcome of the battle would have been different without the advantage)



You answered your own question. So, there is no point. And *Yonkou* posted what i was about to post on this point.



> Curiel is also as true WB commander and he was fighting equally with Moriah.


Rakuyo was going against Kizaru and survived.




> Vista has the hype of being the strongest swordsman of the Whitebeard pirates,Marco was confident that he could stop an admiral level fighter in his tracks (which he did),he was praised by Mihawk,and he was on Whitebeard's ship during Gold Roger's era.
> Ace's hype is jackshit compared to his.
> As for feats,Vista was able to equally fight an admiral level fighter for a good amount of time,and it ended in a stalemate,while Ace was slapped around by a fighter faaaaaar below admiral level. That's the only feat we need to say Vista>>Ace.
> They are not equal. Not even close. Do you believe Ace and Jozu are nearly equal as well?
> Because I don't see manga proof that Vista is far below Jozu.



Crocodile stopped Mihawk too , so u think Croc can beat 2 Ace no problem ?

Mihawk was casual and was looking at Luffy and phrased him the whole time. A serious and focused Mihawk would have beat the crap out of Vista any day any time. Mihawk is the WSS and he did not even had the interest to fight Vista seriously even tho he never fought him b4. Mihawk knows he is far above Vista and can kill 2 Vista at the same time.



> Honestly,Ace is the most overrated character in this section. smfh


Its just the opposite.

Oda showed Ace had the enough firepower (even in that fucked up state) to deal with a serious Aokiji's attack and also technically showed Akaino did not one shoot Ace, Ace let himself get one shooted to save Luffy.
Most of the fucking strong guy in OP universe (except WB) would probably die if he chose to get hit by Akaino like that.


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## RF (Mar 24, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Rakuyo was going against Kizaru and survived.



What are you trying to do here? 

Obviously,it's because Kizaru doesn't take anything seriously. If it were Akainu,he would have decimated Rakuyo just liked he did Curiel.



Lionel Messi said:


> Crocodile stopped Mihawk too , so u think Croc can beat 2 Ace no problem ?
> 
> Mihawk was casual and was looking at Luffy and phrased him the whole time. A serious and focused Mihawk would have beat the crap out of Vista any day any time. Mihawk is the WSS and he did not even had the interest to fight Vista seriously even tho he never fought him b4. Mihawk knows he is far above Vista and can kill 2 Vista at the same time..



Just stop. Please. 

First of all,both of us know that Crocodile's powerlevel was ridiculously inconsistent on Marineford.

God,you are underplaying Vista's feat so much. Mihawk was serious against Vista. He acknowledged him as a powerful opponent,and they fought for several panels,whereas Croc simply stopped one of his inferior cuts aimed at_ Luffy_.

Comparing these situations is absolutely ridiculous. 

If Mihawk was far above Vista,he would have simply stomped him,and continued to pursue Luffy. But he did not. Why is that ? It's because he is not far above Vista. What is the point in asking for a stalemate,and thus losing the chance to prove your superiority to another swordsman if you are far above him,as you are implying. Answer this question,and I'll concede.



Lionel Messi said:


> Oda showed Ace had the enough firepower (even in that fucked up state) to deal with a serious Aokiji's attack and also technically showed Akaino did not one shoot Ace, Ace let himself get one shooted to save Luffy.
> Most of the fucking strong guy in OP universe (except WB) would probably die if he chose to get hit by Akaino like that.



What weakened state? The man had enough endurance to fight for 5 days straight,hanging in a cell for some time is not going to kill him.

Oh boy the Aokiji feat. The fucking Aokiji feat that you bring up as if it were impressive. I'm not sure whether you know,but fire is the perfect natural counter against ice. If you gave Ace's fruit to some random marine soldier,and replaced him with Ace in that scenario,the outcome would have been completely the same. That scene in no testament of Ace's strength,since Ace's fruit is the_ perfect_ counter against Aokiji's fruit. 

And also,you seem to miss the fact that Akainu sent Ace flying like a bitch before actually killing him,which he did fairly. And while there was an elemental advantage with Ace and Akainu,it was not even remotely as big as the advantage Ace had over Aokiji.


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## blueframe01 (Mar 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Also,there is a reason why Oda made the commanders distracted,but there was no such thing going against Ace.



Really? So you conveniently ignore the fact that he put his body in the line to save Luffy?? Replace Ace with Vista and he'll still have a hole in his chest. Replace Ace with anyone else and they will suffer the same fate. Anyone except WB of course as he is the only one who has survive (for a while) with hole in his chest. 



> It's because the commanders can fight an admiral legitimately,while Ace could not. Ace on the other hand,got outright fodderized when he tried to take on an admiral himself.


As both the Admirals were practically equal in power, Ace's being more successful at blocking Aokiji than Akainu showed that The DF Advantage of Akainu played a huge part in that small battle.



> Also,Marco getting chained by a VA is not as negative as you make it out to be. His father's innards were full of magma,and he completely left his guard down in a war. Given the circumstances,even an admiral would have been caught.


Oh you remember that part. Too bad you conveniently forgot the fact that Ace died to to save Luffy.



> Nope. They are exactly where they are supposed to be,and you are massively overrating Ace and Luffy.


There is a reason both Mihawk & Vista are banned in BD section. And that's because they are widely know as the most overatted characters in OP. And no, going toe to toe against a half assed Mihawk for 2 panels is not a legitimate feat. Its fanwank at its best.


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## Shinthia (Mar 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> First of all,both of us know that Crocodile's powerlevel was ridiculously inconsistent on Marineford.
> God,you are underplaying Vista's feat so much. *Mihawk was serious against Vista*. He acknowledged him as a powerful opponent,and they fought for several panels,whereas Croc simply stopped one of his inferior cuts aimed at_ Luffy_.
> Comparing these situations is absolutely ridiculous.
> If Mihawk was far above Vista,he would have simply stomped him,and continued to pursue Luffy. But he did not. Why is that ? It's because he is not far above Vista. .



Mihawk sure showed he is serious,focused and interested in Vista's almighty strength by looking at Luffy instead of Vista. :rofl



> What weakened state? The man had enough endurance to fight for 5 days straight,hanging in a cell for some time is not going to kill him.


if you dont chose to see all the scratch in his body than i cant help you.



> Oh boy the Aokiji feat. The fucking Aokiji feat that you bring up as if it were impressive. I'm not sure whether you know,but fire is the perfect natural counter against ice. If you gave Ace's fruit to some random marine soldier,and replaced him with Ace in that scenario,the outcome would have been completely the same. That scene in no testament of Ace's strength,since Ace's fruit is the_ perfect_ counter against Aokiji's fruit.
> And also,you seem to miss the fact that Akainu sent Ace flying like a bitch before actually killing him,*which he did fairly*. And while there was an elemental advantage with Ace and Akainu,it was not even remotely as big as the advantage Ace had over Aokiji.



Why the double standard ?




> What is the point in asking for a stalemate,and *thus losing the chance to prove your superiority to another swordsman* if you are far above him,as you are implying. Answer this question,and I'll concede



He already is the fucking Worlds strongest swordsman. He has nothing to prove.


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## Mihawk (Mar 24, 2013)

Mihawk would destroy Vista.

He would wreck Ace even more in a fight.

I do regard Vista and Ace as being in the same tier, but I consider Vista as the strongest High-High Tier bordering close into low top tier territoty, and Ace as an average High-High tier. 

Hype wise, Vista shits on Ace.

Feats wise too.

As for the Commanders, it's pretty obvious that Ace had a ways to go before he could catch up to the likes of Vista(whom I don't see being very far apart from Ace, but is still clearly stronger), let alone Jozu & Marco.

Marco & Jozu are just a cut above the others, and that is hard to deny.


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## RF (Mar 24, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Mihawk sure showed he is serious,focused and interested in Vista's almighty strength by looking at Luffy instead of Vista. :rofl



He looked at Luffy at one instance,stop over exaggerating. If he is far above Vista,then he would have destroyed him,not end the match with a draw. It's up to you to prove that Mihawk didn't give absolutely two shits about Vista,and that he could have destroyed Vista easily (which is not true.)



Lionel Messi said:


> if you dont chose to see all the scratch in his body than i cant help you.



Sengoku had a lot of scratches on his body by the end of the war as well. Poor fella must have been horribly injured and exhausted.



Lionel Messi said:


> Why the double standard ?



It's not a double standard. It was obvious that Ace's advantage was a lot more massive,considering he had to do nothing but raise his arm and shoot some fire,which required zero effort,while Akainu's advantage was just one of the things Akainu had over Ace,alongside more powerful haki and physical strength,which contributed to him sending Ace flying.



Lionel Messi said:


> He already is the fucking Worlds strongest swordsman. He has nothing to prove.



He doesn't have to prove anything to you,he wants to prove it to himself. He spends his entire life searching for people that have the potential to surpass him. Since he never encountered Vista before.he entered in a fight,to see if he is capable of defeating him. So why would he back out? If he believed that Vista was not worth his time,he would have done 
and then he would continue pursuing Luffy. But he did not. Instead,he chose to call it a stalemate. Why is that ? Because Vista IS a worthy opponent.


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## Shinthia (Mar 24, 2013)

Either you are very respectful to my post only or you cant see other 2 poster's (*Yonkou* & *blueframe01*) QUOTE at all (like the half of manga)



Sakazuki said:


> He looked at Luffy at one instance,stop over exaggerating. If he is far above Vista,then he would have destroyed him,not end the match with a draw. It's up to you to prove that Mihawk didn't give absolutely two shits about Vista (although he never even injured him in the clash,and they were crossing blades equally),and that he could have destroyed Vista easily (which is not true.)



Mihawk was not serious.One instance or not he looked at Luffy and admire his special power while fighting Vista. Mihawk's attention was fully on Luffy.If Mihawk had the mindset as Akaino , believe me Mihawk would have destroyed Vista.



> Sengoku had a lot of scratches on his body by the end of the war as well. Poor fella must have been horribly injured and exhausted.



I will not at all be surprised if Sengoku get injured/exhausted by a Gura Gura no mi user.



> It's not a double standard. *It was obvious that Ace's advantage was a lot more massive*,considering he had to do nothing but raise his arm and shoot some fire,which required zero effort,while Akainu's advantage was just one of the things Akainu had over Ace,alongside more powerful haki and physical strength,which contributed to him sending Ace flying


.

I give up. There is no point in talking to you if you debate like this. Its clearly a double standard from you and u cant even admit it. Even Akaino himself thought it was worth to mention about the advantage. 




> He doesn't have to prove anything to you,he wants to prove it to himself. He spends his entire life searching for people that have the potential to surpass him. Since he never encountered Vista before.he entered in a fight,to see if he is capable of defeating him. So why would he back out? If he believed that Vista was not worth his time,he would have done
> and then he would continue pursuing Luffy. But he did not. Instead,he chose to call it a stalemate. Why is that ? Because Vista IS a worthy opponent.



Why Mihawk had to prove it to himself ? Do you think in Mihawks's heart he had doubt about being superior to Vista ? :rofl

Dont make me laugh. Mihawk is someone who is hinted to be equal to an Yonko . He does not need to prove to anyone (specially himself) that he is stronger than someone who is not even in top 3.


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## RF (Mar 24, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Either you are very respectful to my post only or you cant see other 2 poster's (*Yonkou* & *blueframe01*) QUOTE at all (like the half of manga)



I'll address their points sooner or later. This shouldn't even be any of your concern,since their posts are irrelevant to our discussion.




Lionel Messi said:


> Mihawk was not serious.One instance or not he looked at Luffy and admire his special power while fighting Vista. Mihawk's attention was fully on Luffy.If Mihawk had the mindset as Akaino , believe me Mihawk would have destroyed Vista.



This is where you need proof,otherwise your argument sinks. 

If Mihawk could _"destroy"_ Vista,why didn't he do so ? Obviously,as seen on panel,fighting Vista was not his primary objective,so why did he ask for a draw? Just answer me,why did he ask for a draw,if he could do anything even remotely close to destroying Vista.



Lionel Messi said:


> I will not at all be surprised if Sengoku get injured/exhausted by a Gura Gura no mi user.



Yes that's right,because fighting someone weaker than you for 2 minutes,with that someone not even laying a hand on you is very exhausting...



Lionel Messi said:


> I give up. There is no point in talking to you if you debate like this. Its clearly a double standard from you and u cant even admit it. Even Akaino himself thought it was worth to mention about the advantage. .



It may be a double standard,but it's fact that Ace's advantage was MUCH bigger. All Ace had to do is raise his hand and shoot out fire,which requires.I repeat zero effort,while Sakazuki had to use physical strength,and possibly haki to send Ace flying 100 meters away. Obviously,everything was performed by Ace's fruit,while that was not the case in Akainu's fight.



Lionel Messi said:


> Why Mihawk had to prove it to himself ? Do you think in Mihawks's heart he had doubt about being superior to Vista ? :rofl
> 
> Dont make me laugh. Mihawk is someone who is hinted to be equal to an Yonko . He does not need to prove to anyone (specially himself) that he is stronger than someone who is not even in top 3.



Mihawk never fought Vista,so how can he be certain that he is superior? Remember,I am discussing his view,not the view of the readers. Just the fact that Mihawk acknowledged Vista as a worthy opponent means a lot.


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## Bonly (Mar 24, 2013)

I view Ace and Vista to be close to each other in power so two Ace's should take this.


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## RF (Mar 24, 2013)

Yonkou said:


> But clearly there was and just because you choose to ignore it doesn't make it untrue. Selective reading is being exhibited here. The commanders were distracted yes, however if their reactions were good enough there was still the possibility, however slim it was, that they could've avoided their hits. Oda put Ace in such a position that it was impossible for him to avoid a hit as his whole goal was to sacrifice himself to protect Luffy. Oda also endeavored to highlight the DF disadvantage Ace was subject to. Akainu himself obviously thought it was a point worth mentioning.



Why are you ignoring the little fact that Akainu prior to fisting Ace sent him flying like 100 meters away?

If you are going to argue that everything was performed by Akainu's devil fruit,which was the case in the Aokiji vs Ace fight,then go ahead.




Yonkou said:


> Ace takes a hit from Akainu and is one shotted. On the other hand Jozu takes a hit from Aokiji and is one shotted..




I don't remember Aokiji laying a hand on Jozu before he got distracted.



Yonkou said:


> That same half-faced Whitebeard was the one that effectively put down Akainu.



>Whitebeard was bloodlusted,meaning the adrenaline made his body ignore the injuries. 
>Whitebeard knocked out Akainu literally a second after he lost half of his face,thus the injury could not have made a clear impact on Whitebeard
>Whitebeard was a whole lot weaker when he fought Blackbeard as evident when we compare the quake Teach took,and the quake that busted Marineford

The conditions of Akainu's fight were completely different. It's like comparing apples and oranges.


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## RF (Mar 24, 2013)

blueframe01 said:


> Really? So you conveniently ignore the fact that he put his body in the line to save Luffy?? Replace Ace with Vista and he'll still have a hole in his chest. Replace Ace with anyone else and they will suffer the same fate. Anyone except WB of course as he is the only one who has survive (for a while) with hole in his chest.





Whether Ace was forced to take the attack or not is irrelevant,he stood no chance against an admiral from the very beginning.



blueframe01 said:


> As both the Admirals were practically equal in power, Ace's being more successful at blocking Aokiji than Akainu showed that The DF Advantage of Akainu played a huge part in that small battle.



No. Ace's advantage against Aokiji was just that massive,since fire is the perfect counter to ice. If you gave pre-skip Coby the Mera Mera No Mi,and replaced him with Ace in that scenario,the outcome would have not been different.




blueframe01 said:


> There is a reason both Mihawk & Vista are banned in BD section. And that's because they are widely know as the most overatted characters in OP. And no, going toe to toe against a half assed Mihawk for 2 panels is not a legitimate feat. Its fanwank at its best.



That's not the reason at all. The reason is that they're often recurring characters in the battledome,but lack the feats,so it ends up with a lot of speculation and possible shitstorms.

And I just can't believe that Marco fighting a non-serious Kizaru for 2 panels gives him a top tier status,while Vista fighting Mihawk rightfully for several panels,forcing him into a stalemate,and gaining his respect is "fanwank".


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## tanman (Mar 24, 2013)

Vista's only feat is clashing with Mihawk. We've seen time and time again that almost any One Piece character is capable of clashing with any other One Piece character. I'm going to need a lot more evidence before I see him beating two of his fellow commanders.  Marco, on the other hand, has been able to cause actual damage to admirals. 

Furthermore, it seems silly to use Mihawk as a benchmark when we hardly know how strong Mihawk is in the first place. The same goes for Jozu's Mihawk-tanking feat. Mihawk's ice cutting feat is impressive, but we have no idea what level of fighter could do that. For example, Jozu could likely crack that iceberg into several pieces. Mihawk's clean cut is simply a swordsman's equivalent.


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## RF (Mar 24, 2013)

tanman said:


> Vista's only feat is clashing with Mihawk. We've seen time and time again that almost any One Piece character is capable of clashing with any other One Piece character. I'm going to need a lot more evidence before I see him beating two of his fellow commanders.  Marco, on the other hand, has been able to cause actual damage to admirals.
> 
> Furthermore, it seems silly to use Mihawk as a benchmark when we hardly know how strong Mihawk is in the first place. The same goes for Jozu's Mihawk-tanking feat. Mihawk's ice cutting feat is impressive, but we have no idea what level of fighter could do that. For example, Jozu could likely crack that iceberg into several pieces. Mihawk's clean cut is simply a swordsman's equivalent.



The majority,and the poster I'm debating with agree on Mihawk being admiral level so I can consider Mihawk admiral level when I'm trying to powerscale a character off of him...

and you just can't call Mihawk vs Vista a clash like every other...

they fought for several panels,Mihawk acknowledged him as a worthy opponent,and praised him,ending the match himself,calling it a draw. That was a legitimate battle,not just a clash.

As for the damage argument,you can't compare the two. A cut is a lot more significant than a kick/punch. There's a reason why Luffy lands dozens,if not hundreds of punches before defeating his opponent,and why Zoro lands approximately 3 cuts per battle,

Vista cutting Mihawk,or vice versa would overhype one of them,and completely dehype the other,and Oda knows that very well. That's why he made both of them just cross their swords.


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## Shinthia (Mar 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> This is where you need proof,otherwise your argument sinks.
> If Mihawk could _"destroy"_ Vista,why didn't he do so ? Obviously,as seen on panel,fighting Vista was not his primary objective,so why did he ask for a stalemate? Just answer me,why did he ask for a stalemate,if he could do anything even remotely close to destroying Vista.



For the last time Mihawk was not serious and did not give a darn. Remember Mihawk did not beat Don kreg because he had enough fun. Mihawk is that kind of a guy. His only intention in the war was to test Luffy and he was doing that in casual mode. 
He does not need get serious over a guy that he certainly knows he is superior to.



> Yes that's right,because fighting someone weaker then you for 2 minutes,with that someone not even laying a hand on you is very exhausting...



Yes, if that weak guy has Gura DF which was tilting the sea.



> It may be a double standard,but it's fact that Ace's advantage was MUCH bigger. All Ace had to do is raise his hand and shoot out fire,*which requires.I repeat zero effort*,while Sakazuki had to use physical strength,and possibly haki to send Ace flying 100 meters away. Obviously,everything was performed by Ace's fruit,while that was not the case in Akainu's fight.



You should give me 1 of your *EFFORT MEASUREMENT* machine. May be than i will have idea where the hell did u get that idea.



> *Mihawk never fought Vista,so how can he be certain that he is superior?* Remember,I am discussing his view,not the view of the readers. Just the fact that Mihawk acknowledged Vista as a worthy opponent means a lot.


Well may be , and just may be because Mihawk is the WSS. I guess thats not enough to be above the almighty Vista-kun . Poor Mihawk, he does not have a clue


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## RF (Mar 24, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> For the last time Mihawk was not serious and did not give a darn. Remember Mihawk did not beat Don kreg because he had enough fun. Mihawk is that kind of a guy. His only intention in the war was to test Luffy and he was doing that in casual mode.
> He does not need get serious over a guy that he certainly knows he is superior to.



So now we're comparing Vista and Don Krieg ? 

You are an idiot if you believe that the strongest swordsman of the Whitebeard pirates is someone Mihawk can be casual with.

There is absolutely no proof that Mihawk was not serious,you're just pulling shit out of your ass because you want your precious Ace to be above Vista. 

On the contrary,everything in that fight indicates that he WAS serious,especially him praising Vista and calling him a worthy opponent. 

And please answer me this question. *IF YOU BELIEVE THAT A SERIOUS MIHAWK CAN DESTROY VISTA,THEN WHY DID HE NOT DO SO?WHY DID HE ASK FOR A DRAW?*



Lionel Messi said:


> Yes, if that weak guy has Gura DF which was tilting the sea.



Regardless of whether the gura was tilting the sea or not,Blackbeard was inferior to Sengoku,so he couldn't exhaust him a lot in mere 2 minutes.



Lionel Messi said:


> You should give me 1 of your *EFFORT MEASUREMENT* machine. May be than i will have idea where the hell did u get that idea.



Fire melts ice. What did Ace have to do except for raising his hand and shooting a bit of fire to melt Aokiji's technique?



Lionel Messi said:


> Well may be , and just may be because Mihawk is the WSS. I guess thats not enough to be above the almighty Vista-kun . Poor Mihawk, he does not have a clue



Again,I'm discussing Mihawk's point of view,not the readers.

Just because he has the tile of the world's strongest swordsman immediately makes him stronger than every other swordsman,even if it's a swordsman who he never even fought?

That logic is flawed as fuck,and I'm quite certain that an intelligent person like Mihawk does not think that way.


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## PrinceUtopia (Mar 24, 2013)

Wasn't it said in a sbs that all WB commanders are close in power? Any way even if it wasn't I don't see vista dodging one entei, let alone two.


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## RF (Mar 24, 2013)

PrinceUtopia said:


> Wasn't it said in a sbs that all WB commanders are close in power? Any way even if it wasn't I don't see vista dodging one entei, let alone two.



Nope.No such thing was ever said.

The opposite is actually backed up with the fact that Marco could tango with the admirals,while Curiel couldn't get past Moria.


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## Doma (Mar 24, 2013)

PrinceUtopia said:


> Wasn't it said in a sbs that all WB commanders are close in power? Any way even if it wasn't I don't see vista dodging one entei, let alone two.



That was a mistranslation. Oda was talking about a different kind of power. He meant it as Marco doesn't have any more authority than one of the generic WB commanders. But obviously any WB pirate would probably listen to him because I'm sure they all respect him immensely.


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## Mihawk (Mar 24, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Dont make me laugh. Mihawk is someone who is hinted to be equal to an Yonko . He does not need to prove to anyone (specially himself) that he is stronger than someone who is not even in top 3.



Ahh nice, at last.

So you finally accept that Mihawk is Yonko level? 




PrinceUtopia said:


> Wasn't it said in a sbs that all WB commanders are close in power? Any way even if it wasn't I don't see vista dodging one entei, let alone two.



That's a redundant argument. You can clearly see that someone like Marco was superior to someone like Namur, or Atmos.

Out of all the Commanders in the war, Ace was most likely the 4th strongest.

1. Marco
2. Jozu
3. Vista
4. Ace


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## Typhon (Mar 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> No. Ace's advantage against Aokiji was just that massive,since fire is the perfect counter to ice.* If you gave pre-skip Coby the Mera Mera No Mi*,and replaced him with Ace in that scenario,the outcome would have not been different.



I was gonna reply to these points until I saw this. You can't be serious right now? 

There's obviously some double standards and favoritism going around for you to have come to this conclusion. Oh and I'm not overrating Ace and Luffy. Like someone already said, there's a reason Vista and Mihawk are banned.


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## Mihawk (Mar 24, 2013)

It's not like it matter anyways, since Ace VS Aokiji was the most insubstantial of "clashes". It was mere ranged attacks projectiled against each other for a single instant. It can't be compared to Vista/Mihawk, Marco/Kizaru, Jozu/Aokiji, which were actual, brief, fights.

Had Aokiji gone in on Ace during that moment, he would have demolished him just as badly as Akainu did.


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## HaxHax (Mar 24, 2013)

Ugh, why is this thread still here. Vista is banned.


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## Typhon (Mar 24, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> It's not like it matter anyways, since Ace VS Aokiji was the most insubstantial of "clashes". It was mere ranged attacks projectiled against each other for a single instant. It can't be compared to Vista/Mihawk, Marco/Kizaru, Jozu/Aokiji, which were actual, brief, fights.
> 
> Had Aokiji gone in on Ace during that moment, he would have demolished him just as badly as Akainu did.



I guess, although that instance of Akainu Magma fisting Ace isn't a good indicator. It's true that Ace can't handle an Admiral, but what really proved that was Teach and his crew running away from Akainu.


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## Mihawk (Mar 24, 2013)

Omnation said:


> I guess, although that instance of Akainu Magma fisting Ace isn't a good indicator. It's true that Ace can't handle an Admiral, but what really proved that was Teach and his crew running away from Akainu.



Yea Ace not being able to handle an Admiral is my main point, and yes the Teach part proved it further.


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## Shinthia (Mar 25, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> So now we're comparing Vista and Don Krieg ?
> You are an idiot if you believe that the strongest swordsman of the Whitebeard pirates is someone Mihawk can be casual with.
> There is absolutely no proof that Mihawk was not serious,you're just pulling shit out of your ass because you want your precious Ace to be above Vista.
> On the contrary,everything in that fight indicates that he WAS serious,especially him praising Vista and calling him a worthy opponent.
> ...


I never said Ace > Vista.I consider Vista to be stronger than Ace but not a level above that Vista can beat 2 Ace at the same time.

Are u a retarded ? *I HAVE BEEN SAYING MIHAWK WAS NOT SERIOUS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING*.

Also do u think Mihawk thinks there is a possibility he could lose to Vista ?



> Regardless of whether the gura was tilting the sea or not,Blackbeard was inferior to Sengoku,so he couldn't exhaust him a lot in mere 2 minutes.



What feat does sengoku has in his old age that u r so confident ? All Sengoku has is hype to be strong at his prime.Do u even know how strong old Sengoku is or his stamina exactly to say things like that ?



> Fire melts ice. What did Ace have to do except for raising his hand and shooting a bit of fire to melt Aokiji's technique?


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## Shinthia (Mar 25, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Ahh nice, at last.
> 
> So you finally accept that Mihawk is Yonko level?



I always thought Mihawk is admiral/yonko level. Its just that i have some complain about his feats and sometime i bitch about it


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## RF (Mar 25, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Are u a retarded ? *I HAVE BEEN SAYING MIHAWK WAS NOT SERIOUS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING*.



Why would he not be serious?

Also,if you are claiming that he could destroy Vista,why did he not do so? Why did he ask for a fucking draw if he could destroy Vista? Answer me this question.



Lionel Messi said:


> What feat does sengoku has in his old age that u r so confident ? All Sengoku has is hype to be strong at his prime.Do u even know how strong old Sengoku is or his stamina exactly to say things like that ?



He has the feat off stalemating Blackbeard and his entire MF crew by himself.



Lionel Messi said:


>



Sorry,but no matter how many facepalms you post it won't make your arguments any more significant.

Does fire naturally melt ice when the two make contact? Yes.

So what did Ace have to do instead of shooting out fire,which requires minimal effort ?


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## Shinthia (Mar 25, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Why would he not be serious?
> 
> Also,if you are claiming that he could destroy Vista,why did he not do so? Why did he ask for a fucking draw if he could destroy Vista? Answer me this question.



I am tired of repeating my self over and over again. Just look at all the previous post and if u have the brain u will understand.



> He has the feat off stalemating Blackbeard and his entire MF crew by himself.


If by himself u mean with Garp then sure.



> Sorry,but no matter how many facepalms you post it won't make your arguments any more significant.
> Does fire naturally melt ice when the two make contact? Yes.
> So what did Ace have to do instead of shooting out fire,which requires minimal effort ?




 u r not sure if it was 0 effort or minimal effort by Ace. First decide what u really believe than start debating . Dont just make a fool out of yourself by posting random shit.


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## RF (Mar 25, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> I am tired of repeating my self over and over again. Just look at all the previous post and if u have the brain u will understand.



So Mihawk can't destroy Vista,because he was not serious,and so he decides to call the match a draw instead of getting serious and destroying Vista? 

Great arguments,keep it up.



Lionel Messi said:


> If by himself u mean with Garp then sure.



Did Garp do anything relevant in that fight at all?



Lionel Messi said:


> u r not sure if it was 0 effort or minimal effort by Ace. First decide what u really believe than start debating . Dont just make a fool out of yourself by posting random shit.



Yes I am sure. Fire melts ice. As simple as that. Ace had to do nothing but shoot out fire. And that requires minimal effort.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Mar 25, 2013)

Lionel Messi's arguments are weak and he's grasping at strawman.

It doesn't matter whether Mihawk was serious, half-serious or not serious at all because Mihawk himself asked Vista to stop the fight. Meaning he acknowledged he can't just steamroll him like he did for example with Mr 1. Logically Mihawk is not destroying Vista. Otherwise he would just one shot him, but it's evident that he can't, unless Vista gets distracted like Jozu. He would win obviously, but Vista would put up a good fight and Mihawk knows this.

And Fire > Ice, no point in debating this.


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## Teach (Mar 25, 2013)

Vista is probably abit stronger than Ace. 2 Ace's would beat him pretty easily.


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## Shinthia (Mar 25, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> So *Mihawk can't destroy Vista*,because he was not serious,and so he decides to call the match a draw instead of getting serious and destroying Vista?
> 
> Great arguments,keep it up.


No, Mihawk chose not to destroy Vista.

and as u did not ans my question i am asking it again 

*Do u think Mihawk thinks there is a possibility he could lose to Vista ?* 



> Did Garp do anything relevant in that fight at all?



No, Garp was just there with Sengoku and was enjoying the show obviously. 



> Yes I am sure. Fire melts ice. As simple as that. Ace had to do nothing but shoot out fire. And that requires *minimal* effort.


no u r not


Sakazuki said:


> It may be a double standard,but it's fact that Ace's advantage was MUCH bigger. All Ace had to do is raise his hand and shoot out fire,*which requires.I repeat zero effort*,while Sakazuki had to use physical strength,and possibly haki to send Ace flying 100 meters away. Obviously,everything was performed by Ace's fruit,while that was not the case in Akainu's fight.


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## Shinthia (Mar 25, 2013)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> And Fire > Ice, no point in debating this.



Like Magma > Fire , r8 ?



Teach said:


> Vista is probably abit stronger than Ace. 2 Ace's would beat him pretty easily.



Yes , my point exactly


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## blueframe01 (Mar 25, 2013)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> And Fire > Ice, no point in debating this.



No its simply silly to think that Fire > Ice with all the evidence shown in the story so far. Akainu himself claimed that his Magma was hotter than Ace's Fire. He even said that his magma burns Ace flames. and yet both Akainu & Aokiji who had identical stats spent 10 days straight fighting equally on an island, both literary at deaths door at the end. If Fire > Ice as you blindly claim, then by your logic Magma >> Fire > Ice. If that was the case Aokiji wouldn't have even lasted a day against Akainu, Unless the latter was much weaker physically which we would all agree is bullocks. But hey, till today Aokiji's ice is pretty much equal to Akainu's Magma, the prove is Punk hazard having 2 halves of ice & magma.  

By manga evidence, Magma = Ice >> Fire.



Teach said:


> Vista is probably abit stronger than Ace. 2 Ace's would beat him pretty easily.


Exactly. If anything, this match-up is pretty much identical to Zoro vs Sanji. Zoro by feats & hype would beat Sanji 10 times out of 10. But he will do it with nothing less than hard to extreme difficulty. But if he takes on 2 Sanjis he get his ass kicked with low difficulty since he's get overwhelmed from the get go. Vista may have a bigger gap in strength to Ace than Zoro has on Sanji, but it is no where near big enough for him to take on 2 Ace simultaneously.


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## RF (Mar 25, 2013)

blueframe01 said:


> -snip-



Nope. Aokiji could freeze Akainu's magma since it's a liquid,so they were both pretty much even. A>B>C logic doesn't work here.


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## RF (Mar 25, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> No, Mihawk chose not to destroy Vista.
> 
> and as u did not ans my question i am asking it again
> 
> *Do u think Mihawk thinks there is a possibility he could lose to Vista ?*



Why would Mihawk spare Vista? He never spared anyone,in the manga including Zoro,so why would he spare Vista?

You're just grasping at straws,everything in the manga indicates that Vista can give Mihawk a run for his money,and you're just stating your own opinion ; which is irrelevant in this discussion.

And no,I never doubted that Mihawk would defeat Vista,but I believe that Vista can give him a mid-diff fight before being defeated.



Lionel Messi said:


> No, Garp was just there with Sengoku and was enjoying the show obviously.



I just skimmed through the war chapters,and it appears that Garp never fought alongside Sengoku. All of that was just anime filler,

I don't see any point in continuing this debate,since neither of us seemingly don't plan to give in soon,so lets just agree that we disagree,and leave it at this,okay ?


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## cry77 (Mar 25, 2013)

> If anything, this match-up is pretty much identical to Zoro vs Sanji


what the fuck is this shit?

If you want to compare this to the SHs then the better comparison would be zoro vs brook or something like that..And dont come telling me that zoro couldnt beat two brooks


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