# Hakuba vs Sanji



## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

In an open field, Hakuba has unlimited time


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji at worst high diffs.


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## Goomoonryong (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji wins very high diff, I can't imagine the Sanji having any trouble reacting to Hakuba given his speciality is Observation haki.


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## zenieth (Jan 15, 2015)

Unless Robin got waaaaaaay stronger and Sanji got waaaaaaaay weaker relative to each other, there's no way Hakuba could hope to push into the high diff range.


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## Ghost (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji lower end of high diff. At worst.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 15, 2015)

Said it before and I'll say it again:


Tea said:


> Sanji kicks him in the mouth.


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## maupp (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji solos at worst mid diff. Congratulation Sanji finally pitted against an opponent you can 100% guarantied defeat(lately he's been pitted against Vergo, Smoker, Zoro etc). He's got this one in the bag(to think I used to be a bit 50/50 with this one)


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## TheWiggian (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji high diff.


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## GreenStache (Jan 15, 2015)

Love cook mid diff


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## Amol (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji kicks the 'Fastest in Dressrosa' in Dressrosa in mid-sprint then goes Super Saiyan mode when he realize that Hakuba threatened Robin.
Sanji wins Mid diff.


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## Venom (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji pulls a Zoro


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Zοrο said:


> Sanji pulls a Zoro



So Sanji zolos?


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

This section and its reading comprehension deficit, I swear.

Show me one single time Robin has failed to react to the speed of someone not named Enel and Aokiji, when they're coming at cleanly from straight ahead.

Oh right. You can't.

I might have to "downgrade" Hakuba to about as strong as Sanji from about as strong as Luffy/Zoro on portrayal alone. But it's still M3 level give or take what you will. And it's more of a grading up of Robin than anything else. She just turned out to be as strong as nothing has ever indicated she wasn't.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> This section and its reading comprehension deficit, I swear



You're quite funny 

My reading comprehension was good enough to correctly pinpoint that Hakuba was weaker than Zoro and Luffy, that's more than you can say for yourself buddy, so I suggest you stop acting so high and mighty


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## Quuon (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji kicks the shit out of him.

High-Difficulty.


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

You feeling... targeted, Pirao? Because that wasn't directed at you, logically enough as you had yet to say anything, but if you're admitting you would say dumb things about Hakuba given the chance, I guess that's fine too.

Do you mean that your bias led you to assume something which turned out to now look like it's correct? Reading comprehension is showed more by how your reason your way to things and less by how they ultimately turn out in hard to predict situations. Hakuba vs. Luffy/Zoro was a toss-up or slightly in the latter's favor prior to this chapter.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You feeling... targeted, Pirao? Because that wasn't directed at you, logically enough as you had yet to say anything, but if you're admitting you would say dumb things about Hakuba given the chance, I guess that's fine too.



Not particularly, but if you think I'm going to let someone make sweeping derogative statements about other people when they in fact have been wrong about the matter at hand, you can bet your ass I'm going to call said person on his/her BS. 



> Do you mean that your bias led you to assume something which turned out to now look like it's correct? Reading comprehension is showed more by how your reason your way to things and less by how they ultimately turn out in hard to predict situations. Hakuba vs. Luffy/Zoro was a toss-up or slightly in the latter's favor prior to this chapter.



My bias? Lol. Do you mean that your bias led you to assume something which turned out to be wrong and now you're reaching at straws trying to justify it to not lose face, like a sore loser? And no, it really wasn't, and when you keep acting high and mighty instead of accepting your mistakes, it just makes you look  bad, but please, carry on, after all this kind of reactions after owneage has ensued is mainly what I post for. This is almost as good as the VA wank getting demolished


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## Luke (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji high diff.


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Not particularly, but if you think I'm going to let someone make sweeping derogative statements about other people when they in fact have been wrong about the matter at hand, you can bet your ass I'm going to call said person on his/her BS.
> 
> 
> 
> My bias? Lol. Do you mean that your bias led you to assume something which turned out to be wrong and now you're reaching at straws trying to justify it to not lose face, like a sore loser? And no, it really wasn't, and when you keep acting high and mighty instead of accepting your mistakes, it just makes you look  bad, but please, carry on, after all this kind of reactions after owneage has ensued is mainly what I post for. This is almost as good as the VA wank getting demolished



I haven't been wrong in the slightest about Hakuba being a monster speedster. Perhaps his overall strength is 96 instead of 99-100. What a chasm. I simply, along with 99.99% of the forum probably including you, underrated Robin. That I absolutely admit. I did not expect Robin to be this proficient.

Me biased against Luffy and Zoro? Heh. You must be new here. What matters isn't right or wrong, pirao. You can't read Oda's mind. I can't read Oda's mind. What matters is reasoning and critical interpretation. People have been using the most braindead "arguments" against Hakuba for a long time and appear inclined to continue doing so without any critical consideration. That's dumb whether they arrive at the right conclusion or not. If I say 2+2 is 4 because the sun is green, the conclusion may be correct but people around me would be in their full right to call my asinine reasoning out. Same principle here.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I haven't been wrong in the slightest about Hakuba being a monster speedster. Perhaps his overall strength is 96 instead of 99-100. What a chasm. I simply, along with 99.99% of the forum probably including you, underrated Robin. That I absolutely admit. I did not expect Robin to be this proficient.



You have been wrong about Hakuba's general strength. And yes, I didn't expect Robin to be the one to put an end to the Hakuba hype, I thought it would be shown by other means (mainly Hakuba having difficulty against opponents M3 would beat without much trouble), I have no problem admiting it. But I still had Hakuba's strength pegged about right.



> Me biased against Luffy and Zoro? Heh. You must be new here. What matters isn't right or wrong, pirao. You can't read Oda's mind. I can't read Oda's mind. What matters is reasoning and critical interpretation. People have been using the most braindead "arguments" against Hakuba for a long time and appear inclined to continue doing so without any critical consideration. That's dumb whether they arrive at the right conclusion or not. If I say 2+2 is 4 because the sun is green, the conclusion may be correct but people around me would be in their full right to call my asinine reasoning out. Same principle here.



Biased against Zoro and Luffy? Were have I said that? You're just one of the posters who loves hyping the sh*t out of every new side character that appears, like a lot of the OL's regulars when I first started posting, ranging from VAs to WB's commanders and allies. The rest of your post goes without saying, however when you pretend other people have arrived at the right conclusion through faulty reasoning, you better put your money where your mouth is and actually show that it is so, because otherwise you're just acting, as I said before, like a sore loser, specially when you start your post disparaging the posters of this section gratuitously.


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:
			
		

> I still had Hakuba's strength pegged about right.



Riiiight.



			
				pirao said:
			
		

> Cavendish/Hakuba is crap





			
				pirao said:
			
		

> Hakuba is mid trio level at best



THAT'S what you think is "about right"?

You are nothing but colossally biased and if the above is your best interpretation of Hakuba's strength, you are so wrong it hurts.



> Biased against Zoro and Luffy? Were have I said that? You're just one of the posters who loves hyping the sh*t out of every new side character that appears



Oh, interesting. By all means show me doing this. Or what was that about "putting your money where your mouth is" I thought I saw something about?



> however when you pretend other people have arrived at the right conclusion through faulty reasoning, you better put your money where your mouth is and actually show that it is so, because otherwise you're just acting, as I said before, like a sore loser.



You mean the thing I've been doing in every Hakuba-related debate I've been in?

I'm sorry if you can't read but I've got little and less to prove to you.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 15, 2015)

OL being the OL


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## Firo (Jan 15, 2015)

The fact that he couldnt break free maybe the bigger problem. He was literally trying and couldnt budge.


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## Tapion (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji mid-diff, He has that Observation haki, flight and is no slouch as far as speed is concerned. Hakuba is fast but that's it.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Riiiight.
> 
> THAT'S what you think is "about right"?
> 
> You are nothing but colossally biased and if the above is your best interpretation of Hakuba's strength, you are so wrong it hurts



I was trolling a bit in those instances, I'll admit it, after all I do like to gloat. But he's closer to middle trio than to M3, that's for sure.



> Oh, interesting. By all means show me doing this. Or what was that about "putting your money where your mouth is" I thought I saw something about?



I recently did it with all the VAs threads I bumped, maybe you weren't around when I did it? Or the Wb commanders threads that were created here in the battledome? Or you overhyping Oars Jr in battledome threads? I have no problem linking them to you though, even though I doubt you don't know the threads I'm talking about. But that will be after you, of course, do the same, since I asked first  




> You mean the thing I've been doing in every Hakuba-related debate I've been in?
> 
> I'm sorry if you can't read but I've got little and less to prove to you.



 Sure you have

That's great and all, but I have nothing to prove to you either, I prefer to let time show who is right and who is wrong, and guess on whose face did the Hakuba wank backfire


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> I was trolling a bit in those instances, I'll admit it, after all I do like to gloat. But he's closer to middle trio than to M3, that's for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We're allowed to simply say we were "trolling" when someone calls us out on massively biased bullshit? That's an interesting standard you set for discussion. I'll definitely be sure to keep it in mind.

Yes, link away. I might feel like killing time bickering with you over them.

No, you didn't "ask first". _You_ made the claim that I haven't backed up my statements. Just like you then made the statement I massively overhype new characters. It is entirely on you to show both.

Yes, as I said, it's not really my problem if you can't read.

The fierce backfire of having a character be 96 when I predicted 99. Dear me.



			
				Firo said:
			
		

> Kept saying that Bart not seeing what the fuck happened was some " hype " that could later be debunked with a later scenario and now look.



It was literally _anti_-debunked. Oda emphasized beyond the point of any possible question marks that Bartolomeo can't see Hakuba for shit. That same Bart was following Luffy fighting like it was nothing special at all, had no problems blocking the likes of Diamante from Rebecca, etc.

This is exclusively a credit to Robin. Not a "dehype" to anyone else.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> We're allowed to simply say we were "trolling" when someone calls us out on massively biased bullshit? That's an interesting standard you set for discussion. I'll definitely be sure to keep it in mind.
> 
> Yes, link away. I might feel like killing time bickering with you over them.
> 
> ...



If you can't see that someone may be not 100% seriously when he's using smilies and sh*t, your reading comprehension that you're so proud about may not be so great after all, I'm afraid  Maybe you should get a sense of humour too, while you're at it.

A serious post of mine about where I thought Hakuba was at prior to this chapter.





No, I'm not going to link anything until you start doing it, after all that's what I've requested in my post, so I'll be right here waiting 

Of course I did, and you haven't done it, so I'm here waiting for you to back up your statements, show our faulty logic please, go ahead. Until then, no cigar. I'm not going to be the only one doing work here, you know 

I can read, unlike you it seems. 

99, 96 what? Is that arbitrary number supposed to mean anything to me? Lol. Going from "stronger than Luffy" to getting soloed by Robin is quite a downgrade


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

Ah, nevermind. I'm quite sure I don't much feel like spending time "debating" someone who seems to fail to comprehend 60% of written words on average. Go learn a few basic concepts like what burden of proof means in a debate (big clue: it's on you) and perhaps trying again would be worth it.


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## Firo (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really?
Lel
Even Bart's VA soloing feat doesnt even look all that good anymore.Es[ecially with him struggling with Gladius. That is where the majority is his hype comes from to begin with.It does dehype his speed, dude was unable to tag Robin while catching her completely off guard. You can ignore this if you want but its in black and white.
Also, the numbers you came up with is nothing but speculation. But then again, I have no Idea on whom you're comparing it to to begin with.


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## Firo (Jan 15, 2015)

Tea said:


> In your opinion, what do you think the overall diff would be? Because at this point I can't see Hakuba pushing Sanji too far at all.



Mid-high.


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

I literally "backed up my claims" in the same post I said that.

But that just reinforces my point rather aptly, doesn't it.

Oh, by the way, I got an impulse. You've been making the claim I made the claim "Hakuba is stronger than Luffy". It is naturally your burden to prove this, but a quick google gave me this:





			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> I would rather give the benefit of the doubt to Luffy, but I can see it going the other way as well.



Isn't that interesting.



Firo said:


> Really?
> Lel
> Even Bart's VA soloing feat doesnt even look all that good anymore.Es[ecially with him struggling with Gladius. That is where the majority is his hype comes from to begin with.It does dehype his speed, dude was unable to tag Robin while catching her completely off guard. You can ignore this if you want but its in black and white.
> Also, the numbers you came up with is nothing but speculation. But then again, I have no Idea on whom you're comparing it to to begin with.



Oh, god. A person who says "Lel" =/

I don't know what manga you read but Bart owned Gladius pretty good. He only took the hit he did because he was desperate to protect Robin, and Gladius showed absolutely no ability to get past Bart's barrier.

Show me a case where someone has blitzed an attentive, aware Robin looking at her opponent coming at her. Please do. For my part I can show you, for example, Robin reacting to Trebol, Jinbe and Luffy. I could also show her making Crocodile look concerned and making Moriah sweat while being unable to break her grip. But hey. If you can't deliver on your end I'm afraid you'll just have to admit it doesn't dehype anything.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I literally "backed up my claims" in the same post I said that.
> 
> But that just reinforces my point rather aptly, doesn't it.



No, I'm afraid you didn't. All you have done all thread is claim that you're right and that you've backed up your claims without producing a single piece of evidence whatsoever, which is quite a feat.

I thought you were done with me too? What happened, changed your mind?


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## Firo (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I don't know what manga you read but Bart owned Gladius pretty good. He only took the hit he did because he was desperate to protect Robin, and Gladius showed absolutely no ability to get past Bart's barrier.


If he was really that much above Gladius, then there was no real reason to tank the explosion in the first place now was it? Not to mention him being spent in this battle and the explosion doing heavy damage.



> Show me a case where someone has blitzed an attentive, aware Robin looking at her opponent coming at her. Please do. For my part I can show you, for example, Robin reacting to Trebol, Jinbe and Luffy. I could also show her making Crocodile look concerned and making Moriah sweat while being unable to break her grip. But hey. If you can't deliver on your end I'm afraid you'll just have to admit it doesn't dehype anything.



The scenario itself is kinda different. Hakuba tried to sneak up on her, got close enough and still got pinned down. she wasnt aware until dude was rather close to her. Thats what makes it so bad.  He  tries that with Luffy and he's eating a fist.


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## maupp (Jan 15, 2015)

This is the problem with this place, people especially some don't like admitting to having made mistakes. They're practically the worst kind of posters to debate with. It's completely asinine the length they'd be willing to go in order to be right despite clearly being wrong


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> S: Sabo
> S-: (Hakuba?) (King Punch Elizabello)
> 
> A+: Burgess, Luffy, Diamante, restored Chinjao
> ...





Coruscation said:


> *Not strictly in order, but still a rough outline of strongest to weakest*.
> 
> Fujitora
> Sabo
> ...





Coruscation said:


> Clearly strong as hell. Chapter made clear Cav's base skill is in no way to be scoffed at either but Hakuba is far more aggressive and bloodlusted. Seems implied that he'd be right up there with the big dogs of the finals (Burgess, Diamante) only he comically ended up losing because he was asleep.





Coruscation said:


> I imagine Zoro would be pushed to extreme difficulty to defeat Hakuba, if he would win at all.



Indeed Corus, good ole search function. I can use it too, see


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## Ekkologix (Jan 15, 2015)

i've said it somewhere in this thread long ago.

sanji can just fly and hakuba wont be able to do anything.

sanji then air assaults hakuba.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Don Usopp said:


> i've said it somewhere in this thread long ago.
> 
> sanji can just fly and hakuba wont be able to do anything.
> 
> sanji then air assaults hakuba.



If Hakuba can't use air slashes like pre-ts Zoro could then he's even weaker than I think.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 15, 2015)

Firo said:


> Mid-high.


I'm leaning more towards mid, but that sounds fair.


Pirao said:


> If Hakuba can't use air slashes like pre-ts Zoro could then he's even weaker than I think.


So  do you think he is now?


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## Ekkologix (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> If Hakuba can't use air slashes like pre-ts Zoro could then he's even weaker than I think.



he haven't used any so far.

he just runs fast and slash the enemy.


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Indeed Corus, good ole search function. I can use it too, see



Like I said:

*You can't read.*

Literally none of those posts has me saying Hakuba > Luffy. In one I say nothing about Luffy or Zoro at all. In the other I say Zoro => Hakuba. In two others I entertain the possibility, without being the least bit conclusive, of Hakuba being superior. Together with the quote I posted this paints an obvious picture of me considering Hakuba about as strong as Luffy and Zoro. Perhaps slightly weaker, perhaps slightly stronger. Now? I consider him about as strong as Sanji. Perhaps slightly weaker or stronger. Since you had so much trouble figuring it out, this is what the 99/96 stuff referred to. I've absolutely no cause to lower my estimation further than that. His feats are absolutely beastly and what Robin managed to do by a hair is no slight on him, for reasons I described in my first post.

You're proving yourself a joke of a poster. You'd really better stop.



> Firo said:
> 
> 
> > If he was really that much above Gladius, then there was no real reason to tank the explosion in the first place now was it? Not to mention him being spent in this battle and the explosion doing heavy damage.
> ...



Not saying he's that much above Gladius. Saying he's stronger -- and Gladius has feats like taking a Jet Stamp and getting up no problems, and being clearly stronger than Dellinger, who easily low-diffed Ideo. Bart is a very strong character. And he can't even see Hakuba.

He did no sneaking. Hakuba isn't really the sneaky type if you haven't noticed. Robin was warned by Bart just as Hakuba started to dash. She then managed to put her hands up when he was a few feet from her... after he had ran many dozen yards vertically up a wall. Like I said -- *please do go ahead* and post scenes of Robin being straight blitzed by people if you think this is a detriment to Hakuba's speed. Otherwise? You've no basis of saying so, while I can provide scenes such as her reacting to Trebol, Luffy and Jinbe.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Tea said:


> I'm leaning more towards mid, but that sounds fair.
> 
> So  do you think he is now?



Between one and a half and one and three quarters (may change depending on how Rebecca does against Diamante in the following chapters)


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## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji's COO gonna help him. Sanji also has beast feats of his own (owning the sniper, Blitzing Vergo, Tagging Dofla from a couple of KM's away, Blue Walk). For now I have to say Sanji with Extreme diff. Because if Hakuba is gonna be out the whole fight, He's gonna go all Dio Brando. Sanji als has COA (as told by Luffy) so that may help a bit here.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Like I said:
> 
> *You can't read.*
> 
> ...



Lol, you had them above Luffy and Zoro in two of those posts, equal or superior to Zoro in another, and equal to Burgess in another. You can try to justify and talk your way out of this, but the posts are there for all to see. 

You've changed your opinion now that the manga has smacked you in the face with facts? Oh my, how magnanimous of you 

You're getting owned buddy, so no, I don't think I'll stop anytime soon.


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

Yes, Pirao. The posts are there for all to see. I'm quite comfortable leaving it at that. It was a long time since I saw someone so incredibly eager to demonstrate their complete inability to comprehend very simple sentences. Wouldn't want to ruin the moment.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Yes, Pirao. The posts are there for all to see. I'm quite comfortable leaving it at that. It was a long time since I saw someone so incredibly eager to demonstrate their complete inability to comprehend very simple sentences. Wouldn't want to ruin the moment.



Indeed they are, and so I am, that's why I put them there. It was a long time since I saw someone get so butthurt about being wrong and demonstrate such a complete inability of being self critic. And I'm enjoying it very much


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## Bernkastel (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji high diff.
He is stronger and has sky walk + good CoO which is what's needed against a high speedster like Hakuba.


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## Furinji Saiga (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji high diff
reaction feats+CoO specialty and sky walk can keep him safe from Hakuba's speed. 
Hell memories or Anti manner kick-course to end it.


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## Quuon (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation vs Pirao 2015.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Indeed Corus, good ole search function. I can use it too, see





1st Quote: (Hakuba*?*) Translation: Hakuba may or may not be above the people below him. 

2nd Quote: *Not strictly in order, but still a rough outline of strongest to weakest.* Translation: *Exactly what it says.*

3rd Quote: Says the manga is* Implying * he was one of the big boys in the tournament. Not above Burgess or Diamante but up their with them. 

4th Quote:* I imagine Zoro would be pushed to extreme difficulty to defeat Hakuba, if he would win at all.
* Translation: Not sure if Zoro will win but if he does its Extreme diff. 

Try again my friend.


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## jNdee~ (Jan 15, 2015)

I never bought Hakuba's hype in the first place. He's below M3.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1st Quote: (Hakuba*?*) Translation: Hakuba may or may not be above the people below him.
> 
> 2nd Quote: *Not strictly in order, but still a rough outline of strongest to weakest.* Translation: *Exactly what it says.*
> 
> ...



1:Yet he puts him above them and not below, that means he thought it was more likely that he was stronger than them.

2: Same sh*t, if he didn't think he was stronger he wouldn't have put him above.

3: Yes, and he quite clearly isn't. Burgess would take him to the woodshed.

4: Which means exactly that he's on Zoro's level, slightly weaker or slightly stronger. Guess what, he's way below those three options.

Are the big letters supposed to impress me or something? 

You try again


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## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:
			
		

> 2: Same sh*t, if he didn't think he was stronger he wouldn't have put him above.



Meet Pirao -- the genius-level intellect who knows what people mean better than themselves since January 15, 2015. What are you doing on NF? A circus or a science team out there would love to have you.

The fact that you talked about my alleged hubris in this very thread is becoming funnier with every post you make. Keep it up.


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## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2015)

Insert Reading Comprehension Pirao, you're doing it all wrong.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Meet Pirao -- the genius-level intellect who knows what people mean better than themselves since January 15, 2015. What are you doing on NF? A circus or a science team out there would love to have you.
> 
> The fact that you talked about my alleged hubris in this very thread is becoming funnier with every post you make. Keep it up.



Yes, yes you put him above because you din't believe he was stronger even though everyone else is ordered from stronger to weakest and they post itself says they're ordered by strength, how silly of me  The facts are you have always pegged Hakuba at around Luffy/Zoro lvl or higher, you came in here insulting other posters in a fit of rage after being proved wrong, and now you're trying to backtrack to not lose face and make it seem like you always thought Hakuba was weaker than that 

Since we're both having so much fun, let's keep it up for a long time.



Dr. White said:


> Insert Reading Comprehension Pirao, you're doing it all wrong.



Sure  Well I guess I better be careful that more Hakuba wankers don't come to gang up on me


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## Lord Stark (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji mid diff.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> 1:Yet he puts him above them and not below, that means he thought it was more likely that he was stronger than them.
> 
> 2: Same sh*t, if he didn't think he was stronger he wouldn't have put him above.
> 
> ...



1. Perhaps it means he is confident on where he ranked the others but not confident of Hakuba. Hence the *?* Putting Hakuba on the same bracket as Luffy and the other would not express Corus opinion at the time that hakuba may very well be strong enough to be put above him. 

2. No at best you can argue it means he is more confident that Hakuba is above luffy then vice versa. But of course you can always just ask the man himself what he thought instead of pretending to know yourself. 

3. Irrelevant. The point is Corus did not say Hakuba is stronger then Diamante/Burgess or anyone for that matter in that quote. 

4. Irrelevant. Corus has already admitted multiple times in this thread and in others that he puts Hakuba on m3 level, but he has not said with high confidence that Hakuba>Luffy/Zoro. The point of discussion currently is what Corus has stated in the past not how accurate his assessment of Hakubas strength is. 

Big Letters are for you since you seemed to miss them the first time. 

Try again.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Perhaps it means he is confident on where he ranked the others but not confident of Hakuba. Hence the *?* Putting Hakuba on the same bracket as Luffy and the other would not express Corus opinion at the time that hakuba may very well be strong enough to be put above him.



Yes, I'm aware of what it means. That placement is no different than putting an "IMO" there. You still think the guy is stronger, even though you're not completely certain (not that you could ever be completely certain about anything in this manga of course).



> 2. No at best you can argue it means he is more confident that Hakuba is above luffy then vice versa. But of course you can always just ask the man himself what he thought instead of pretending to know yourself.



It's the same as above.



> 3. Irrelevant. The point is Corus did not say Hakuba is stronger then Diamante/Burgess or anyone for that matter in that quote.



I did not say he said he was stronger than burgess, just equal, which he did.



> 4. Irrelevant. Corus has already admitted multiple times in this thread and in others that he puts Hakuba on m3 level, but he has not said with high confidence that Hakuba>Luffy/Zoro. The point of discussion currently is what Corus has stated in the past not how accurate his assessment of Hakubas strength is.



Of course he has admitted it in this thread, would be quite silly if he didn't after we've got the undeniable evidence of this chapter.  He used to think Hakuba was Luffy's level or above before that happened though.



> Big Letters are for you since you seemed to miss them the first time.
> 
> Try again.



No, I really didn't miss anything.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:
			
		

> make it seem like you always thought Hakuba was weaker than that



The hilarities never stop coming do they? From my first post in this thread:



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> I might have to "downgrade" Hakuba to about as strong as Sanji from about as strong as Luffy/Zoro on portrayal alone.



In the eyes of a person with reading comprehension, Pirao, I'm saying above that I previously rated Hakuba about as strong as Luffy/Zoro and now I'm inclined to rate him about as strong as Sanji instead.

That is the _*first*_ thing I said in this thread.

You are most definitely quite a funny troll.


----------



## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> The hilarities never stop coming do they? From my first post in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, you're downgrading him now that manga facts have smacked you in the face, as I've said. And maybe you should also look up in the dictionary the words always and before. You sure love to accuse others of having no reading comprehension when yours sucks quite a bit 

I'm having fun too, as I said, we can keep this up as long as you want, no problem


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Yes, I'm aware of what it means. That placement is no different than putting an "IMO" there. You still think the guy is stronger, even though you're not completely certain (not that you could ever be completely certain about anything in this manga of course).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1/2. No its not the same as that. 

3.





> Clearly strong as hell. Chapter made clear Cav's base skill is in no way to be scoffed at either but Hakuba is far more aggressive and bloodlusted. Seems implied that he'd be right up there with the big dogs of the finals (Burgess, Diamante) only he comically ended up losing because he was asleep.


 Where did Corus say hakuba=Burgess  Was it in another quote?

4. He said the same things in other threads(Long before this chapter came out). Based on what you quoted and what i have seen of him post on this forum and others. Corus opnion in the past was Luffy gets the benefit of the doubt, not sure on Zoro/hakuba. With the opinion that depending on how strong cavendish is and if the statement of hakuba being 2x stronger then Cavendish was true, that Hakuba could be even close to DD level without any surprise. Thats what i have seen, all of which is perfectly fine.



Pirao said:


> *Yes, you're downgrading him now that manga facts have smacked you in the face, as I've said*. And maybe you should also look up in the dictionary the words always and before. You sure love to accuse others of having no reading comprehension when yours sucks quite a bit
> 
> I'm having fun too, as I said, we can keep this up as long as you want, no problem



If that a problem?

Or is Corus suppose to formulate a opinion based off the manga, and stick to said opinion despite said manga providing more evidence at a later point? 

I use to say Zoro could beat Sanji with Extreme diff, now i say he beats him with almost mid diff. Why is that? Cause the manga provided things that changed my mind.


----------



## maupp (Jan 15, 2015)

The revisionism and backtracking from some folks around this place is hilarious. And look how shameful these same people refuse to admit to their mistakes but instead line up together backing each other while trying to ridicule someone who is showing them up 

"Pirao" mate you're wasting your breath. It's clear to everyone(themselves included) what they wrote and implied in their past posts in previous weeks but they'd rather twist things in order to hide and shield themselves from facing the truth and admitting to being wrong. It's a bit sad to be honest


----------



## Jeep Brah (Jan 15, 2015)

And at the end of the day...




Pirao was right Habuka is closer to mid trio (doubtful he's stronger than Robin) than he is the monster trio.



And Coursturcation is wrong considering he originally placed Habuka above the likes of Luffy, Zoro, and only half a tier below Sabo.


----------



## Pirao (Jan 15, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1/2. No its not the same as that.



Huh, yes, it actually is.



> 3. Where did Corus say hakuba=Burgess  Was it in another quote?



"Right up there with" actually means that.



> 4. He said the same things in other threads(Long before this chapter came out). Based on what you quoted and what i have seen of him post on this forum and others. Corus opnion in the past was Luffy gets the benefit of the doubt, not sure on Zoro/hakuba. With the opinion that depending on how strong cavendish is and if the statement of hakuba being 2x stronger then Cavendish was true, that Hakuba could be even close to DD level without any surprise. Thats what i have seen, all of which is perfectly fine.



No, it is not perfectly fine as the manga has demonstrated. He was wrong about how strong Hakuba was, plain and simple.




> If that a problem?
> 
> Or is Corus suppose to formulate a opinion based off the manga, and stick to said opinion despite said manga providing more evidence at a later point?
> 
> I use to say Zoro could beat Sanji with Extreme diff, now i say he beats him with almost mid diff. Why is that? Cause the manga provided things that changed my mind.



Of course not, it's actually the sane thing to do. But it's not the same as actually having been right since the beginning. I have no problem whatsoever with his opinions however wrong they may be. If he had posted the same in his first post without the "This section and its reading comprehension deficit, I swear." I would have just laughed it off and moved on. Making wrong predictions happens to everyone, you'll just get laughed at a bit and move on. It has happened to everyone. Disparaging other people when you've been wrong about something is not cool though.



maupp said:


> The revisionism and backtracking from some folks around this place is hilarious. And look how shameful these same people refuse to admit to their mistakes but instead line up together backing each other while trying to ridicule someone who is showing them up
> 
> "Pirao" mate you're wasting your breath. It's clear to everyone(themselves included) what they wrote and implied in their past posts in previous weeks but they'd rather twist things in order to hide and shield themselves from facing the truth and admitting to being wrong. It's a bit sad to be honest



I know, having someone to admit to being wrong in this section is close to impossible. I just want to make sure that people know the facts about the situation and what certain posters have or haven't said in the past, so they can make their own opinions based on that. As long as I get to do that I can stand a bit of bickering, no problem 



Jeep Brah said:


> And at the end of the day...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But all of that doesn't matter because I arrived at that conclusion through faulty reasoning brah (Coruscation dixit) while him and his impeccable logic have arrived to the wrong conclusion due to... I dunno, sheer bad luck I guess. 

I'm such a lucky guy, gonna go get a couple of lottery tickets just in case


----------



## Sablés (Jan 15, 2015)

No seriously. let me get this straight.

Robin reacts to Hakuba and all of a sudden this is a detriment to his speed....and not a credit to Robin's reactions? Despite the fact that Bart (who's no scrub himself) was admittedly incapable of following him?


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 15, 2015)

Sometimes I wonder if Coru is a genius troll. Cause he sure responds to more trolls than anyone else I've seen. Give it a rest. Talking walls are dense.


----------



## maupp (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Huh, yes, it actually is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Had me on the floor for a while


----------



## maupp (Jan 15, 2015)

..........


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Huh, yes, it actually is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We have to agree to disagree then.

I interpret as him saying Hakuba is on the same level as Diamante and Jesus in portrayal.  Which makes sense considering corus other posts show he does not believe Diamante=Jesus or Hakuba.

Corus already admitted he was wrong in the first post?

Corus is right bad reasoning is bad reasoning. If i say Zoro> Sanji cause he is a swordsmen it does not matter if Zoro is stronger then Sanji my reasoning is still shit and auch reasoning should not be supported. Now its a different story if someones reasonings were proved correct, if zoro> sanji cause swords and thats proven in thw manga then i waa wrong and the reasoning is not shit (usually)

Aka reading comprehension is still shit. Also lets not pretend Hakuba strength has been ethed into the stars. CAVENDISH NoR Hakuba have been in a full 1v1 fight we only know with confidence he is not a top tier nor is he a bottom level high tier.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 15, 2015)

Yeah I mean it's not like my opinion of what I meant when I wrote the thing that I wrote myself could be a deciding factor in the argument as to what I meant.

Nope.

Pirao knows best. And he's free of all hubris.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 15, 2015)

Stop this butthurt shit and admit you were wrong like a man dude... I just read sissy excuses for about 3+ pages in every fucking Hakuba thread. First Rebecca, now Robin easily reacted to him, what proof you want else? He is not a threat to the M3. They'll easily react to him and won't be kind to him like Robin, he'll receive some serious injuries by Dj, Ashura or a JG.


----------



## Suit (Jan 15, 2015)

Liquid said:


> No seriously. let me get this straight.
> 
> Robin reacts to Hakuba and all of a sudden this is a detriment to his speed....and not a credit to Robin's reactions? Despite the fact that Bart (who's no scrub himself) was admittedly incapable of following him?




*Spoiler*: _Relevant New Chapter Evidence_ 



Well, think of it this way: the M3 are very far ahead of the middle trio in terms of their battle prowess; therefore, there _must_ be a gap between Robin and Sanji, which I think everyone would agree on. Seeing that Hakuba was reacted to by Robin just means that Sanji would do it exceptionally better. It does speak volumes for Robin, but not without speaking even more volumes for Sanji.

In light of new evidence, Sanji stomps Hakuba. There's no comparison, really. Hakuba wank can slowly die now in full light of the fact that it's not even close to M3 level.


----------



## Jeep Brah (Jan 15, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Yeah I mean it's not like my opinion of what I meant when I wrote the thing that I wrote myself could be a deciding factor in the argument as to what I meant.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Pirao knows best. And he's free of all hubris.



Well he was right and you WERE wrong......



Just saying...


----------



## WGSZoro (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji mid diff

sanji will have to dodge the sword strikes but once he connects a DJ he wins


----------



## maupp (Jan 15, 2015)

Is it really that hard for some people to admit that they were wrong? This is absolutely ridiculous, madness even


----------



## Suit (Jan 15, 2015)

WGSZoro said:


> Sanji mid diff
> 
> sanji will have to dodge the sword strikes but once he connects a DJ he wins




*Spoiler*: _New Chapter_ 



Robin was able to react to Hakuba, so Sanji by scaling will be able to do so more effectively. Add in the fact that he also specializes in CoO, and there really is no difficulty involved in dodging Hakuba's attacks.

I'm really glad though that we got to see proof that Robin > most colosseum fighters this chapter. That was a badass way of keeping her relevant.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2015)

Lucky Rue said:


> *Spoiler*: _New Chapter_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not Really.

*Spoiler*: __ 



-Robin Dodged 1 Dash from Hakuba who was literally dozens of meters under her. Hakuba literally scaled the vertical wall, and got withing 5 - 10 ft of her before she could react (corus already outlined Robin's amazing DF speed), part of which was in thanks due to Bart's warning.

Place Robin, and Hakuba on the same ground level, and not from dozens of meters away and she gets tore up.


----------



## MrWano (Jan 15, 2015)

Not gonna lie, I did think he'd be on Zoro' levels or even another step or two above that (Luffy/Law). And while it's certainly still possible, I have a feeling that he'll be more on par with Sanji after the latest chapter. Gonna be optimistic and give it to Hakuba with very high diff.


----------



## King plasma (Jan 15, 2015)

Sanji most likely high or extreme difficulty.


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 15, 2015)

_The M3 are the M3 because they are monsters in terms of strength when compared to the rest of the crew. Hakuba did not look like a monster when compared to Robin._


----------



## tanman (Jan 15, 2015)

This thread is just reactionary bullshit.


----------



## Typhon (Jan 15, 2015)

Typhon said:


> Sanji wins, maybe high diff. I don't think Hakuba is even as fast as Sanji. Moving at incredibly speeds 5000 meters under water, nearly blitzing Vergo, and getting from Dressrosa to Greenbit in a small window of time > Blitzing a ring of people where Diamante had no trouble following and blitzing Dellinger, which Zoro kicked out the way like trash.



Now there's even more fuel for Sanji winning cleanly. Maybe now all the Hakuba overestimation, especially on his speed, will drop.


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 15, 2015)

tanman said:


> This thread is just reactionary bullshit.



_To be fair, that was the case with almost all relevant Dressrosa characters getting compared with the SH's after they each got their moments in the spotlight this arc. The SH's that barely got any serious fighting post time skip to make a proper estimation of their actual strength and half of them are even missing for more than a year now. That's why people looked down on Robin before this chapter or continue to look down on the likes of Chopper or Brook._


----------



## Amol (Jan 16, 2015)

Feats :
1) Strength : 
Sanji : Drew blood from Vergo in single kick .
Hakuba : Matched Old Don Chinjao's headbutt.
And failed to break Robin's hold.
So essentially below M3 level .
2) Speed :
Sanji : Said to faster than fishman under water . His feat of covering distance via Sky walk to stop DD from killing rest of the Straw Hats was great.
Hakuba : Sabo praised him.
Blitzed few fodders and Dellinger.
3) Durability : 
Sanji : Too many examples to count.
Hakuba : feat less.
4) CoO :
Sanji : Specializes in CoO. Located a Sniper when he was in a woman's company. That makes it a great feat .
Hakuba : Feat less .
5) CoA :
Sanji : Confirmed Haki user. 
Hakuba : Feat less.
6)Number of Attacks :
Sanji : DJ, Hell Memories (massive AoE).
Hakuba: Nothing other than ordinary slashes .
7) Intelligence :
Sanji : Crew strategist. Mr.Prince
Hakuba : Just Mindlessly attacks.
8) Hype :
Sanji : Member of M3. DD praised him as overall strong opponent.
Hakuba : Only his speed is hyped.
Result : 
Hakuba charges towards Sanji with his great speed. Sanji being CoO specialist dodges attacks effortlessly and kicks him with DJ. Hakuba having lesser physical stats gets injured greatly .
Sanji sky walks basically making Hakuba useless. 
Then
HM GG.
I don't see Sanji receiving a scratch from Hakuba .


----------



## Gohara (Jan 16, 2015)

Hakuba wins with around high difficulty, IMO.


----------



## maupp (Jan 16, 2015)

^ Dude Hakuba couldn't even cut it against a Mid Trio level fighter, he isn't beating the heaviest hitters of the SH crew


----------



## ciigan (Jan 16, 2015)

Robin mentioned speed means nothing to her. Hakuba is a speed based character. Just because Robin restrained him does not downplay his character at all. 
Sanji is not Robin, he can't just restrain him. He will have to deal with his speed. The fight will be difficult for both fighters.


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 16, 2015)

Sanji gets cut in half eventually. His speed and CoO will help him, but not against an opponent even Bart can't see moving up close.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 16, 2015)

The Hakuba wank don't want to die...


----------



## Venom (Jan 16, 2015)

tanman said:


> This thread is just reactionary bullshit.



That's always how it is in here.
Just look at the thread after Luffy vs Chinjao and look the  vs Chinjao fights now.
People simply overrate every character which gets a bit splotlight


----------



## maupp (Jan 16, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> The Hakuba wank don't want to die...



Seems likes some are willing to die for the cause


----------



## Kaiser (Jan 16, 2015)

The upcoming Cavendish vs Trebol will really make people mad it seems


----------



## maupp (Jan 16, 2015)

^LOL you're still at it


----------



## Ruse (Jan 16, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> The upcoming Cavendish vs Trebol will really make people mad it seems



I was under the impression Cav was done for this arc.


----------



## Kaiser (Jan 16, 2015)

Freecss said:


> I was under the impression Cav was done for this arc.


Who knows? I don't think Oda made Cavendish climb up for nothing. Imo he'll wake up soon and considering i don't see him interfering in Kyros' fight, the only option left is that he will go straight forward to the palace(which was his original target anyway) to face Trebol who still has no opponent for some reasons


----------



## Dellinger (Jan 16, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> This section and its reading comprehension deficit, I swear.
> 
> Show me one single time Robin has failed to react to the speed of someone not named Enel and Aokiji, when they're coming at cleanly from straight ahead.
> 
> ...



She could not react to Luffy's speed when he avoided Ceasar's Gastanet.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 16, 2015)

^And yet She reacted to G2 Luffy and Jinbei.


----------



## Dellinger (Jan 16, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ^And yet She reacted to G2 Luffy and Jinbei.



Caesar reacted to Luffy too yet Luffy could blitz the living shit out of him whenever he wanted.


----------



## MrWano (Jan 16, 2015)

That was't close to Luffy's top speed. We saw that in the very same arc. Luffy's top speed (smiley explosion escape) shits on the Jinbe scene in terms of how fast he moved. 

Not that Robin wasn't impressive. They're Luffy and Jinbe after all.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 16, 2015)

How do you know what Luffys top speed is exactly? 

Cause i sure as hell don't know what it is.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 16, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> She could not react to Luffy's speed when he avoided Ceasar's Gastanet.



*You don't even really know that*. The one who shat himself was Franky and Luffy was, you know, obscured by a giant explosion covering the sky, so it's not like anyone could have actually seen him move.

Funny thing about the comparison is that when Franky hyped Luffy's speed in the same instance it was clear to everyone that it was a scene meant to highlight Luffy as fast as hell. Oda doesn't just casually throw around that kind of comment and immense depiction of speed.

When Sabo, the Revolutionaries 2nd-in-command, hypes Hakuba's speed, in a situation similarly depicting insane levels of speed, elements of the OL conclude that it's throwaway and meaningless and nothing to the M3.

Double standards, double standards everywhere.


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 16, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> She could not react to Luffy's speed when he avoided Ceasar's Gastanet.



Not entirely true. There was an explosion that covers everything, how is she supposed to see anything? And I'm not quiet sure, but I think she only commented on how fast Luffy was. Won't really bother searching for the panel.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 16, 2015)

Double Standards so tasty.

I might actually get full off of them this week.

Although sadly Diamante is going to be even more underestimated then he already is. Cause if Robin can do anything to mess with diamante he is instantly fodder to sanji and by extension supper fodder to grand master zolo and Get Rekt By Bellamy Luffy.


----------



## Amol (Jan 16, 2015)

I don't even know whom to take seriously and who is trolling.
Strange how can same panels has interpretations of huge differences.
The hell happened to common sense.
Or was it always like this?


----------



## Quipchaque (Jan 16, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> *You don't even really know that*. The one who shat himself was Franky and Luffy was, you know, obscured by a giant explosion covering the sky, so it's not like anyone could have actually seen him move.
> 
> Funny thing about the comparison is that when Franky hyped Luffy's speed in the same instance it was clear to everyone that it was a scene meant to highlight Luffy as fast as hell. Oda doesn't just casually throw around that kind of comment and immense depiction of speed.
> 
> ...




To be fair Sabo sure as hell didn?t expect anyone to move with highspeed of such magnitude while on the contrary Franky knew perfectly well about Luffy?s capability to do so. So the reactions aren?t remotely comparable.


----------



## Kaiser (Jan 16, 2015)

^Sabo said he already heard of Hakuba's speed from rumours, yet he said his actual speed even exceeded his expectations


----------



## Quipchaque (Jan 16, 2015)

Then again he didn?t know about Cavendish so it?s hard to tell if he actually expected it to happen at all.


----------



## Dellinger (Jan 16, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> *You don't even really know that*. The one who shat himself was Franky and Luffy was, you know, obscured by a giant explosion covering the sky, so it's not like anyone could have actually seen him move.
> 
> Funny thing about the comparison is that when Franky hyped Luffy's speed in the same instance it was clear to everyone that it was a scene meant to highlight Luffy as fast as hell. Oda doesn't just casually throw around that kind of comment and immense depiction of speed.
> 
> ...



I"m not downplaying Hakuba's speed.Regarding Robin she was relieved that Luffy was fine meaning she did not know what happened on that instant.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 16, 2015)

Yeah but there was kind of a giant explosion covering the whole sky.

She has high perception... not heat vision.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> To be fair Sabo sure as hell didn?t expect anyone to move with highspeed of such magnitude while on the contrary Franky knew perfectly well about Luffy?s capability to do so. So the reactions aren?t remotely comparable.



What's this even referring to? Sabo knew Cavendish was in the block, clearly knew about the Cavendish-Hakuba connection (that they always show up in the same place, at the very least) and the only thing he was surprised at when Hakuba came out is _how fast he was, surpassing his expectations_.

Sabo knew Hakuba was rumored to be fast as the wind. But he was still surprised and impressed when seeing it in person. Franky knew Luffy was fast as hell in Gear 2nd. But he was still surprised and impressed when seeing it in person.

I'm not seeing any difference.


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 16, 2015)

> Yeah but there was kind of a giant explosion covering the whole sky.
> 
> She has high perception... not heat vision.



There's a very deadly virus that is killing all common sense around here. Glad to see that someone still has it.


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 16, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Yeah but there was kind of a giant explosion covering the whole sky.
> 
> She has high perception... *not heat vision.*



The next level of COO.


----------



## MrWano (Jan 16, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> How do you know what Luffys top speed is exactly?
> 
> Cause i sure as hell don't know what it is.



It's not the level of speed he used in the Jinbe scene, that's for sure. That one visibly shows that it's not full speed Luffy.

But sure, he might be even faster than the smiley explosion. Intercepting Doffy in base might have required higher speed. None of these have a point of reference though.


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 16, 2015)

MrWano said:


> It's not the level of speed he used in the Jinbe scene, that's for sure. That one visibly shows that it's not full speed Luffy.
> 
> But sure, he might be even faster than the smiley explosion. Intercepting Doffy in base might have required higher speed. None of these have a point of reference though.



Can you determine how fast flamingo was moving?


----------



## MrWano (Jan 16, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Can you determine how fast flamingo was moving?



I could do the calculation(s), but I honestly don't care enough. It was an incredibly powerful kick, which in turn requires great speed to generate such force at that short distance. And since it's Doffy we're talking about, that's really enough. And again, I stress the "might".


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 16, 2015)

MrWano said:


> I could do the calculation(s), but I honestly don't care enough. It was an incredibly powerful kick, which in turn requires great speed to generate such force at that short distance. And since it's Doffy we're talking about, that's really enough. And again, I stress the "might".



Flamingo cut off oars with a "come at me bro" stance.

Fail to see why he would need to generate some crazy speed to achieve that.  He did a strong kick and the DF did the rest.  I saw Someone of kaku's level get a decent kick rotation to cut the tower of justice in half with amedachi.

Flamingo more than likely did that with a basic kick.


----------



## MrWano (Jan 16, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Flamingo cut off oars with a "come at me bro" stance.
> 
> Fail to see why he would need to generate some crazy speed to achieve that.  He did a strong kick and the DF did the rest.  I saw Someone of kaku's level get a decent kick rotation to cut the tower of justice in half with amedachi.
> 
> Flamingo more than likely did that with a basic kick.



Intent and context. Doffy's state of mind was different. 

Because physics. So? That had a ton of prep time and Doffy's kick lifted the damn tower, it didn't just slice it. 

And it's not like I'm saying that it was his most powerful kick, just a powerful one. Certainly not a basic one. The kicks towards Luffy and Law however, I can see being basic ones. The one in the tower is visibly more powerful.


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 16, 2015)

MrWano said:


> Intent and context. Doffy's state of mind was different.
> 
> Because physics. So? That had a ton of prep time and Doffy's kick lifted the damn tower, it didn't just slice it.
> 
> And it's not like I'm saying that it was his most powerful kick, just a powerful one. Certainly not a basic one. The kicks towards Luffy and Law however, I can see being basic ones. The one in the tower is visibly more powerful.



What context?  He clean sliced oars leg standing one place.  Why does he now need to generate crazy force to do what he did?

Df still did 95% of the work dude.

Law's cut also "lifted" the mountain.


----------



## MrWano (Jan 16, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> What context?  He clean sliced oars leg standing one place.  Why does he now need to generate crazy force to do what he did?
> 
> Df still did 95% of the work dude.
> 
> Law's cut also "lifted" the mountain.



First of all, it was not with his foot. Because of the scale of the attack.

Conjecture.. And it's still a kick either way.

And that was insanely impressive :/


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 16, 2015)

MrWano said:


> First of all, it was not with his foot. Because of the scale of the attack.
> 
> Conjecture.. And it's still a kick either way.
> 
> And that was insanely impressive :/



You're missing the point.  if he can cut something without moving he's going to cut more when he moves similiar he's going to cut even more when he kicks doesn't make the physical kick itself massively powerful because the DF is doing all the work.

Without the DF augmenting it it wouldn't have done much.

For a DF feat yes it's not a test of physical strength.


----------



## MrWano (Jan 16, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> You're missing the point.  if he can cut something without moving he's going to cut more when he moves similiar he's going to cut even more when he kicks doesn't make the physical kick itself massively powerful because the DF is doing all the work.
> 
> Without the DF augmenting it it wouldn't have done much.
> 
> For a DF feat yes it's not a test of physical strength.



You're comparing apples and oranges. That paragraph also needs a rephrase :/ 
And again.. A powerful =/ the most powerful.

Unfounded, they're both essential to that result.

Yes, it is. The strings are strings, albeit strong and sharp. They'll still need force (speed) to be able to cut through that. So no, the df is absolutely not doing all the work.


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## Canute87 (Jan 16, 2015)

MrWano said:


> You're comparing apples and oranges. That paragraph also needs a rephrase :/
> And again.. A powerful =/ the most powerful.



Can't be apple and oranges  the cutting power requires no significant force behind to be able to cut in the first place, it's naturally capable of doing that that's what I was trying to explain to you.  

You think that law would need to exert anywhere near the same physical force to cut something like zoro?  Think about that.




MrWano said:


> Yes, it is. The strings are strings, albeit strong and sharp. They'll still need force (speed) to be able to cut through that. So no, the df is absolutely not doing all the work.



It's doing most of it , I've seen the physical feats from people massively weaker than flamingo.

I saw Rob lucci casually throw luffy a good mile away into into two buildings, I already mentioned the deal with Kaku two people massively weaker than flamingo.  

Fact is the all of the cutting power exists in the strings and flamingo doesn't need to generate any crazy force behind it to send it out  the strings are extremely potent when it comes to cutting power.  Flamingo just needs to send it out and with pre-time skip strength feats this requires very little from him.

The base kick he used was no more powerful than the kick he gave luffy when he was half assedly blocking him. Using the DF with it expotentially increased the power.


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## Lawliet (Jan 16, 2015)

Doffy doesn't need to generate movement speed to cut something in half. He cut his own palace while trying to assassinate Kyros without generating movement speed. He cut a random building from Green Bit without generating movement speed. His threads generate movement speed, not him in person.


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## Dr. White (Jan 16, 2015)

Wano, Dofla was able to cut half the meteor with an odd arm lunge. He diced up pressurized rock, with the same force generated to scoff someone away with your arms.


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## MrWano (Jan 16, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Can't be apple and oranges  the cutting power requires no significant force behind to be able to cut in the first place, it's naturally capable of doing that that's what I was trying to explain to you.
> 
> You think that law would need to exert anywhere near the same physical force to cut something like zoro?  Think about that.
> 
> ...




It does, it's basic physics. And this is the last time I'll explain it to you. Yes, the strings are extremely sharp and will damage somewhat on virtue of that. But not on the scale that you think.
The building being cut was a by product of the attack. It was not the aim. It will need power.

Again apples and oranges, or invalid comparison if you so will. The ope ope no mi is unique and is not like the ito ito no mi at all. Law can casually cut seastone. There is not way in hell Doffy is doing that like Law, if at all.

Which wasn't nearly as impressive as this :/ We're talking about a by product of an attack, remember that. And Doffy's kick was vastly more impressive than Kaku's charged up ultimate attack.

If it was his intent, perhaps, but still to a lesser extent that you think. This was a much more focused attack, yet still cut the palace in half. Also, I noticed from the panel(s) that Doffy was not stationary behind Kyros, but actually came at him so to speak, so there goes that argument. 

But the more important observation is that no string is in sight, so that was a flying slash actually. Which is kinda bad for your stance.

The df requires power to begin with, hence why you're wrong. Already debunked this argument though. :/

Anyways, I'm tired of repeating myself and writing the tl;dr's, so this is my last contribution.


@Lawliet: Re-read the palace scene. He did have movement. Overheat is a different type of attack. He shoots the string out backwards and launches it with his own physical strength forwards. If not he could just toss it with no prep-time.

@White: Look at his facial expression. He was desperate and then angry afterwards. That wasn't just some push. He used the power that he had in that instance.


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## Dr. White (Jan 16, 2015)

MrWano said:


> @White: Look at his facial expression. He was desperate and then angry afterwards. That wasn't just some push. He used the power that he had in that instance.


What you saying doesn't make sense. Dofla's had to react at MHS speeds to cut the meteor side that fell down on him. He literally doesn't even chrage for energy, he just swipes his hand twice. His facial expression had more t do with his internal feelings of seeing a meteor come down, not him overly exerting himself (which would have been shown). So if your argument is that Doffy had to gain mass amounts of speed and power to bust a building from the inside, surely he would have had to perform much more action to cleave through a meteor coming down at terminal velocity.


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## Canute87 (Jan 16, 2015)

MrWano said:


> It does, it's basic physics. And this is the last time I'll explain it to you. Yes, the strings are extremely sharp and will damage somewhat on virtue of that.


Basic physics can't apply so easily to DF powers.  A sword is sharp yet you need to apply significance force to cut anything.  Flamingo can cut anything from a simple flick of the fingers. 



> But not on the scale that you think.
> The building being cut was a by product of the attack. It was not the aim. It will need power.



It was nothing more than overkill, the attack was far more powerful than what was needed to take out kyros. 



> Again apples and oranges, or invalid comparison if you so will. The ope ope no mi is unique and is not like the ito ito no mi at all. Law can casually cut seastone. There is not way in hell Doffy is doing that like Law, if at all.



The cutting aspect of it is comparable that's all that matters.  Flamingo needs little effort to cut something just like law.



> Which wasn't nearly as impressive as this :/ We're talking about a by product of an attack, remember that. And Doffy's kick was vastly more impressive than Kaku's charged up ultimate attack.



But at the end of the day kaku was still capable of cuting the building in half that's why you are over exxagerating it.



> If it was his intent, perhaps, but still to a lesser extent that you think. This was a much more focused attack, yet still cut the palace in half. Also, I noticed from the panel(s) that Doffy was not stationary behind Kyros, but actually came at him so to speak, so there goes that argument.



He also ran up to luffy too before he kick him too it never sent luffy any great distance, So  what's your point exactly?



> But the more important observation is that no string is in sight, so that was a flying slash actually. Which is kinda bad for your stance.



You were doing damn good.  Why would you crash yourself like this?




> The df requires power to begin with, hence why you're wrong. Already debunked this argument though. :/



Flick of the fingers. 



> Anyways, I'm tired of repeating myself and writing the tl;dr's, so this is my last contribution.


Bye.



> @White: Look at his facial expression. He was desperate and then angry afterwards. That wasn't just some push. He used the power that he had in that instance.



Facial expression?  He saw a huge ass meteor coming towards him you expect him not to have any reaction? Like it's something he's actually seen before?


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## Lawliet (Jan 16, 2015)

> @Lawliet: Re-read the palace scene. He did have movement. Overheat is a different type of attack. He shoots the string out backwards and launches it with his own physical strength forwards. If not he could just toss it with no prep-time.


His movement done in the palace was not to launch a stronger cutting technique, it was done to get to Kyros' head. You must distinguish between the feats. He ended up doing a round kick,  and if my memory servers me right, he stopped right before launching the attack.


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## Coruscation (Jan 16, 2015)

Doffy's strings are uber sharp.

They cut Fujitora's meteor while freaking stationary. *Stationary.* _An Admiral's meteor coming down from space._

That alone tells you Dof hardly needs to put much force behind them to get insane cutting power. At least not as far as shearing through soft materials go. In order to break through something with a lot of hardness he has to put a substantial amount of force from his physical strength behind it as seen with Law.


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## Dellinger (Jan 16, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Can you determine how fast flamingo was moving?



Kyros could not even react.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 16, 2015)

I don't recall DD using his devil fruit when he was about to kill kyros.


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## Venom (Jan 16, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I don't recall DD using his devil fruit when he was about to kill kyros.



IIRC it was DD's clone who was about to chop off Kyros' head


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 16, 2015)

Zοrο said:


> IIRC it was DD's clone who was about to chop off Kyros' head



No, it was the original Doflamingo.


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## Suit (Jan 16, 2015)

Amol said:


> Feats :
> 1) Strength :
> Sanji : Drew blood from Vergo in single kick .
> Hakuba : Matched Old Don Chinjao's headbutt.
> ...



Amol Soloed.



oOLawlietOo said:


> Sanji gets cut in half eventually. His speed and CoO will help him, but not against an opponent even Bart can't see moving up close.



Rebecca can react to Hakuba, but Sanji can't? Hey everyone, let's all sing a rousing round of "Bullshit!"


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## Sablés (Jan 16, 2015)

Lucky Rue said:


> Rebecca can react to Hakuba, but Sanji can't? Hey everyone, let's all sing a rousing round of "Bullshit!"



Then I suppose you're the impression that Rebecca is far stronger than  Bart? Because that's where the dubious train of thought that strength necessitates superior reactions will lead you.


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## Suit (Jan 16, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Then I suppose you're the impression that Rebecca is far stronger than  Bart? Because that's where the dubious train of thought that strength necessitates superior reactions will lead you.



Bart isn't a CoO specialist like Rebecca and Sanji though. If you'd read between the lines, you would have realized that it's quite the perfect comparison. Someone like Sanji who is on Luffy's level but a bit weaker isn't going to have trouble reacting to someone that Robin reacted to. And even Rebecca, who is basically an extremely physically weak version of Sanji.


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## Gohara (Jan 16, 2015)

maupp said:


> Dude Hakuba couldn't even cut it against a Mid Trio level fighter, he isn't beating the heaviest hitters of the SH crew



I respectfully disagree.  I rank Hakuba a league higher than the most powerful Straw Hat Pirates outside of the Monster Trio.


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## Canute87 (Jan 16, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Kyros could not even react.



Well Flamingo did attack from behind afterall.


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## Quipchaque (Jan 17, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Yeah but there was kind of a giant explosion covering the whole sky.
> 
> She has high perception... not heat vision.
> 
> ...




How can you tell? For all we know he barely knew anything except the myth of "cutting winds". And when he saw what happened in the ring he realized that must be it.


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## Coruscation (Jan 17, 2015)

Because he *knew Hakuba's name* and wasn't surprised at what happened in the least, except for the sheer level of the speed surpassing his expectations. How exactly in your mind would Sabo know nothing more than the myth of the wind cutting people in Rommel Kingdom, and then _out of the blue_ casually and completely confidently (and being 100% right) connect that to Cavendish falling asleep and waking up cutting people, including knowing Hakuba's name?

Come on now.

We even learned in this chapter that Robin is aware of the connection. Robin was with the Revolutionaries and knows Sabo already. Put 2 and 2 together.


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## Quipchaque (Jan 17, 2015)

True Robin actually knew, forgot about that. Nvm then.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Jan 17, 2015)

Lmao seriously? Some people really think Sanji can't react to Hakuba when Robin and Rebecca could? That's some deep denial. Sanji can't react to Hakuba because someone below him (Bart) couldn't react to Hakuba? Oh yeah Sanji is a CoO specialist but  that doesn't mean jack anymore because someone below him couldn't do something. Hakuba is strong if he gets a hit off, but Sanji can react to Hakuba and can afford to take hits. The same can't be said for Hakuba. Wow!! Hakuba one shotted Dellinger, when was Dellinger shown to be impressive in the defensive category? Hakuba should never have been placed in the league of M3 ever since that Rebecca shit. The best thing going for Hakuba is that Sabo acknowledged his speed. DD acknowledged Sanji as being pretty strong. Imo being pretty strong>faster than expected.


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## blueframe01 (Jan 17, 2015)

EnyawNehc said:


> Lmao seriously? Some people really think Sanji can't react to Hakuba when Robin and Rebecca could? That's some deep denial.



Indeed. Beccy with some COO could dodge him. Robin without COO but with really good reaction speed pretty much made him useless. Sanji with COO, good reactions speed & incredible movement speed would shit on Hakuba.


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 18, 2015)

I really thought Hakuba would be M3 level, but he's close to it.

Sanji high diff's.


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