# A (Fourth Raikage) vs Mereum (Chimera Ant King)



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 28, 2015)

vs.



Who wins? Battlefield is Netero vs Mereum


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 28, 2015)

A is much faster and has higher DC.


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## Yami Munesanzun (Mar 28, 2015)

Oh look, it's Cell.


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## Alita (Mar 28, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> A is much faster and has higher DC.


This. A wins.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 28, 2015)

Wait what? When did A gain more DC then Meruem?


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## Aphelion (Mar 28, 2015)

Someone remind me, what exactly is A's speed and where does it come from?

Also this


Freddie Mercury said:


> Wait what? When did A gain more DC then Meruem?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 28, 2015)

Aphelion said:


> Someone remind me, what exactly is A's speed and where does it come from?
> 
> Also this



He's around the speed of KCM Naruto who should get CFRS scaling.

A is small city compared to Meruem who's town level with small city durability. He damaged Susanoo and could match up with KCM Naruto is the wiki's listed reasoning.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2015)

A also damaged the Hachibi, whose body withstood multi-Gigaton Juubidama in a confined space.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 28, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> He's around the speed of KCM Naruto who should get CFRS scaling.
> 
> A is small city compared to Meruem who's town level with small city durability. He damaged Susanoo and could match up with KCM Naruto is the wiki's listed reasoning.



How is he small city level when he only cracked a rib...


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## Aphelion (Mar 28, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> He's around the speed of KCM Naruto who should get CFRS scaling.
> 
> A is small city compared to Meruem who's town level with small city durability. He damaged Susanoo and could match up with KCM Naruto is the wiki's listed reasoning.



alright

Could you link the speed calc?


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## Iwandesu (Mar 28, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> How is he small city level when he only cracked a rib...


He also overpowered kcm and is said to the able to match hachibi.
also madara susanno completely lol nopes gaara sand who is physically above shukaku.
so yeah... small city Ay is likely.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 28, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> He also overpowered kcm and is said to the able to match hachibi.
> also madara susanno completely lol nopes gaara sand who is physically above shukaku.
> so yeah... small city Ay is likely.



No.

He overpowered KCM Naruto a little after he gained the form, and the only attack he had that was at that level was FRS.


The damage he did to madara's susanoo was also due to a combination attack with Onoki, not his own strength.


Again, what feat does A has that gives him more dc than Meruem who is a legit town buster?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 28, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> How is he small city level when he only cracked a rib...



I'm pretty sure Susanoo as a whole is city level from tanking Kirin or something.




Aphelion said:


> alright
> 
> Could you link the speed calc?



I can't find it offhand but I've seen it before. It's that one we had as the old MHS calc, but the time frame got increased a few times before it finally dropped to like somewhere over mach 100. It's from when Naruto tossed the CFRS at the Shinju tree.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 28, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'm pretty sure Susanoo as a whole is city level from tanking Kirin or something.



That was Itachi's full form Susanoo with the Yata Mirror.

A only cracked a single from from Sasuke's incomplete Susanoo at the Kage summit.


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## Jag77 (Mar 29, 2015)

Didn't A damage the Hatchibi like alot?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2015)

Jag77 said:


> Didn't A damage the Hatchibi like alot?


He did cut off Gyuki's horn, yep.



Freddie Mercury said:


> That was Itachi's full form Susanoo with the Yata Mirror.
> 
> A only cracked a single from from Sasuke's incomplete Susanoo at the Kage summit.


Actually, A shattered Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage twice. The first by accident with the Liger Bomb, the second on purpose with his horizontal chop.


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## Alita (Mar 29, 2015)

In addition to A cutting off hachibi's horn, he also threatened to behead kisame who tanked gai's AT.

I feel like he should be more than just small city level, though I guess it has to due with surface area shinnenagans.


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## God (Mar 29, 2015)

A is not even close to city-level, he is mcb at best. No one in here has posted anything even remotely close to a valid feat.

Cracking an incomplete Susanoo from an amateur Sasuke, and breaking Hachibi's horn does not grant him the power output to take out a a small city. No.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 29, 2015)

Cubey said:


> A is not even close to city-level, he is mcb at best. No one in here has posted anything even remotely close to a valid feat.
> 
> Cracking an incomplete Susanoo from an amateur Sasuke, and breaking Hachibi's horn does not grant him the power output to take out a a small city. No.



All Kages scale to town level to begin with and the Hachibi's durability is much higher than that to be honest.


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## God (Mar 29, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> *All Kages scale to town level to begin with* and the Hachibi's durability is much higher than that to be honest.


Lol at the bolded. Secondly, A did not overpower the Hachibi's durability. He merely cut off a horn.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> All Kages scale to town level to begin with and the Hachibi's durability is much higher than that to be honest.


More like City Level, Low City but City Level none-the-less since they're superior to shinobi like Kitsuchi who has 17 Megatons under his belt.


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## Alita (Mar 29, 2015)

Cubey said:


> Lol at the bolded. Secondly, A did not overpower the Hachibi's durability. He merely cut off a horn.


Hachibi's horn was in tact both times he took his own bijuu bomb in the manga....


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> Hachibi's horn was in tact both times he took his own bijuu bomb in the manga....


Not to mention that all the Kage's are stronger than Kitsuchi who has 17 megatons under his belt.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 29, 2015)

Isn't A Small city level do to Phsyically matching Madara's Susano'o which could overpower Gaara's sand that's comparable to a Bijuu physically? Or did people have problems with that for some reason?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 29, 2015)

That's probably fine too to be honest.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> In addition to A cutting off hachibi's horn, he also threatened to behead kisame who tanked gai's AT.
> 
> I feel like he should be more than just small city level, though I guess it has to due with surface area shinnenagans.




So breaking horns count as doing actual damage now?

Keep in mind that Sakura broke Kaguya's horn, is Sakura a continental threat now? No. A has no small city level feats plain & simple. The only Raikage that could fight Hachibi to a standstill was the Third.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

Also Kage is a title, not a scale of power so stop that shit right now.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Also Kage is a title, not a scale of power so stop that shit right now.


There is the term Kage-level used several times, Freddie Mercury. All the Kages are stronger than Kitsuchi, thus they have similar DC.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 29, 2015)

They wouldn't get Kitsuchi scaling actually. He's a top tier as far as Doton jutsu goes so only someone like the Tsuchikage would get that and they have better DC feats, the only other person I can think of on that level with Doton might be Jiraiya or Hiruzen or something.


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## Monna (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> So breaking horns count as doing actual damage now?
> 
> *Keep in mind that Sakura broke Kaguya's horn, is Sakura a continental threat now?* No. A has no small city level feats plain & simple. The only Raikage that could fight Hachibi to a standstill was the Third.


That "feat" is disregarded entirely for being an outlier. Not the best of examples.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> There is the term Kage-level used several times, Freddie Mercury. All the Kages are stronger than Kitsuchi, thus they have similar DC.



Mei & Hiruzen do not focus on DC. Neither did the second Mizukage or Danzo.


The term itself is redundant when it can mean anybody in power from Tsunade, who is small city level at best to Hashirama & Minato who can contend with Bijuus.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> *Mei *& Hiruzen do not focus on DC. Neither did the second Mizukage or Danzo.



Mei actually does. It's literally all she has. Perhaps not in Raw AOE but she's still a straight forward attacker (ignoring hidden mist of course.)

EDIT: Admittedly I forgot about her acid mist which is more indirect. Still, that just 1 particular ability that is considered no where near her best.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Mei & Hiruzen do not focus on DC. Neither did the second Mizukage or Danzo.
> 
> 
> The term itself is redundant when it can mean anybody in power from Tsunade, who is small city level at best to Hashirama & Minato who can contend with Bijuus.


There are kind of levels of Kage level ninja. Low, Mid, and High.


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## Alita (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> So breaking horns count as doing actual damage now?
> 
> Keep in mind that Sakura broke Kaguya's horn, is Sakura a continental threat now? No. A has no small city level feats plain & simple. The only Raikage that could fight Hachibi to a standstill was the Third.


Sakura's feat was obviously PIS. You know that Freddie. Also read waka's post.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

Jane Crocker said:


> That "feat" is disregarded entirely for being an outlier. Not the best of examples.



Technically speaking, and i really hate to say this, but Sakura gained a power up recently and has not shown any feats weaker after that. Dismissing it by case of old feats will mean we will have to do the same for the Raikage since he couldn't even break Sasuke's incomplete Susanoo while serious.


Or we can be smart and just say that horn level durability doesn't mean shit.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Mei actually does. It's literally all she has. *Perhaps not in Raw AOE* but she's still a straight forward attacker (ignoring hidden mist of course.)



Well i was actually talking in that sense. Since her ability focuses on melting enemies, and needless to say her feats in that have not been impressive to say the least, we have nothing to scale her from.


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## Alita (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Well i was actually talking in that sense. Since her ability focuses on melting enemies, and needless to say her feats in that have not been impressive to say the least, we have nothing to scale her from.


She destroys some meteors in the last naruto movie from what I remember watching it.


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## Monna (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Technically speaking, and i really hate to say this, but Sakura gained a power up recently and has not shown any feats weaker after that. Dismissing it by case of old feats will mean we will have to do the same for the Raikage since he couldn't even break Sasuke's incomplete Susanoo while serious.
> 
> 
> Or we can be smart and just say that horn level durability doesn't mean shit.


I don't think you understand exactly why the feat is an outlier. Oh well, it's irrelevant to this thread.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Technically speaking, and i really hate to say this,* but Sakura gained a power up recently and has not shown any feats weaker after that.* Dismissing it by case of old feats will mean we will have to do the same for the Raikage since he couldn't even break Sasuke's incomplete Susanoo while serious.
> 
> 
> Or we can be smart and just say that horn level durability doesn't mean shit.



Not even remotely the same. Kaguya just tanked a barrage of attacks from Naruto head on and was no worse for wear, yet gets damaged by Sakura. 

On the other end the defensive capabilities of Sasukes Susano'o are completely unknown at this time and the Raikage was directly compared to a tailed beast.

In one case the hype stacks up, and in the other it's completely lobotomized.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> She destroys some meteors in the last naruto movie from what I remember watching it.



Well in that case fine, but that's the Last and i don't see how A gets the scaling regardless.



LazyWaka said:


> Not even remotely the same. Kaguya just tanked a barrage of attacks from Naruto head on and was no worse for wear, yet gets damaged by Sakura.



You're missing the point. Sakura's attack didn't do shit to Kaguya other than break a horn. It didn't make her bleed or anything. It's similar to how we claim that the Hachibi's tail are not as durable as his body because Sasuke was able to slice one off. It's the same shit.



> On the other end the defensive capabilities of Sasukes Susano'o are completely unknown at this time and the Raikage was directly compared to a tailed beast.



Speculations. And you know for a fact that Sasuke's susanoo ribs were no more durable than town level so i don't even know why you are trying to go this route.




> In one case the hype stacks up, and in the other it's completely lobotomized.




Other than his speed, the Raikage had no hype. Tsundere is physically stronger than him and the rest of the kages have higher DC as well. He's not small city level because he never shown the feats, simple as that.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

This isn't even reasonable powerscaling. It's claiming that a character should be at a certain level of power merely because of a title he or she owns, in which the owners of said titles varies in strength as well by rather notable boundaries. 


That's like saying Buggy from One Piece is equal to Mihawk because they are both shichibukai. It makes no damn sense.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> This isn't even reasonable powerscaling. It's claiming that a character should be at a certain level of power merely because of a title he or she owns, in which the owners of said titles varies in strength as well by rather notable boundaries.
> 
> 
> That's like saying Buggy from One Piece is equal to Mihawk because they are both shichibukai. It makes no damn sense.


Not really. Kage-level characters are shown to be generally above the likes of Elite Jonin such as Kitsuchi by leaps and bounds.


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## Sablés (Mar 29, 2015)

Naruto and Sasuke are Genin

Now with that retarded argument out of the way. You're looking too much into this Freddie and the rest of you too little. Hachibi's tails get cut off all the damn time but we don't assume his body is that fragile (in which case, I can't fathom why he gets the durability he's been suggested), don't see a point in making a case for the horns either.


Not like I care either way tho


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not really. Kage-level characters are shown to be generally above the likes of Elite Jonin such as Kitsuchi by leaps and bounds.



Are you trying to scale the DC of a specific jutsu to the DC of that of others?

More into it, do you not realize that you are shooting yourself in your own foot by making it clear that you don't need to be a kage to have that much DC, and that the rank itself is irrelevant?

Once again

Danzo
Mei (pre-Last)
Hiruzen
Second Mizukage
Tobirama


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## LazyWaka (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Are you trying to scale the DC of a specific jutsu to the DC of that of others?
> 
> More into it, do you not realize that you are shooting yourself in your own foot by making it clear that you don't need to be a kage to have that much DC, and that the rank itself is irrelevant?
> 
> ...



Tobirama was actually considered a threat to Madara who at that point tanked a barrage of attacks from the Bijuu. He does have a lot of power, it's just more focused.


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

There's also a feat where Hiruzen neutralized the Juubi's elemental attack.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> There's also a feat where Hiruzen neutralized the Juubi's elemental attack.



Hiruzen >> Hashirama


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Also Kage is a title, not a scale of power so stop that shit right now.



stop being dumb

Kage is a rank, if you cannot hold it you do not get it for any extended period of time

inb4 part 1 hiruzen arguments


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> stop being dumb
> 
> Kage is a rank, if you cannot hold it you do not get it for any extended period of time
> 
> *inb4 part 1 hiruzen arguments*




darthg you can't be this fucking dense.

The point is you can't say Raikage is small city level just because he's a kage, when the power of each and every kage varies, with some of them relying more on hax than actual DC. In this case Raikage relies on his speed which was clear quite clear in the manga while tsunade is the physical power house.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 29, 2015)

It's not just because he's a kage freddie

his strength is acknowledged by the Jinchuuriki of the two strongest Tailed beasts

Karin says he has bijuu level chakra

He can damage Madara's Susanoo

he can damage a bijuu

he's the son of and trained extensively by the man who tanked a FRS to the face using the exact same techniques, the third Raikage even straight up says that the next generation will surpass his own, i.e A's generation>his own and implicitly A>him

Also he's a kage and has been for over a decade

basically you're a complete retard on the level of people who think Sakura is weaker than Tsunade if you believe that A doesn't get scaled to small city level


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## Monna (Mar 29, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> basically you're a complete retard on the level of people who think Sakura is weaker than Tsunade if you believe that A doesn't get scaled to small city level


Stop being such an insufferable dumbfuck. There is no reason to place Sakura above or at the level of Tsunade.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 29, 2015)

Also A shits on his son A


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

> who think Sakura is weaker than Tsunade if you believe that A doesn't get scaled to small city level



Dartg by feats and Portrayal. Sakura hasn't done anything to be above Tsunade at best she is her equal in chakra... The only reason people peg her to being above Tsunade is because of Hashirama praising her....

And Hashirama died before Tsunade even became a ninja....

inb4 someone uses anything that involved events in Kaguya.



> Sakura's attack didn't do shit to Kaguya other than break a horn. It didn't make her bleed or anything.



The problem here is Naruto before this happened threw 9 rasenbijudama to Kaguya and they didn't even damage a single strand of her hair,, And yet sakura's punch broke her horn...


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 29, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> It's not just because he's a kage freddie



Are we back to this shit again? Stop being a broken record and post some damn scans.



> his strength is acknowledged by the Jinchuuriki of the two strongest Tailed beasts



No shit, your point? I'm not saying he's weak, i'm saying that people are wanking the hell out of him.



> Karin says he has bijuu level chakra



>"H-he has Bijuu level chakra!!!"

darthg just shut up. He uses his chakra to increase the potency of his Raiton, which makes him one of the fastest and most durable characters in the manga. Now you tell me, how the fuck does that imply his DC should be scaled to them as well because the Bijuus are island busters, and last i checked Raikage was nowhere near that. In fact the people here arguing for him won't even claim it.

You know who else has Bijuu level chakra? Kisame and yet he couldn't take on Bee in direct combat and his best attack got snuffed by Afternoon Tiger.



> He can damage Madara's Susanoo



With the help of Onoki, and damage is not the same as destroying. Only Tsunade & Onoki could do that.



> he can damage a bijuu



Read the thread.



> he's the son of and trained extensively by the man who tanked a FRS to the face using the exact same techniques, the third Raikage even straight up says that the next generation will surpass his own, i.e A's generation>his own and implicitly A>him



>speculation
>implying he can get the Third Raikage's feats just because he's his son
>*next generation* bullshit

darthg you're going into Unknown tier now. This is not even an argument.



> Also he's a kage and has been for over a decade



your point?



> basically you're a complete retard on the level of people who think Sakura is weaker than Tsunade if you believe that A doesn't get scaled to small city level



I'm a retard for asking for proof that you and others are failing to deliver?


Excuse me, but are you new to the OBD? You do realize that in order to debate here you have to actually back up your claims? Your entire argument is he say/she say and speculation. Completely ignoring how ninjutsu in the Narutoverse work.


Oh and the tsunade comment needs no words, it's just that insane.


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## Monna (Mar 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Dartg by feats and Portrayal. Sakura hasn't done anything to be above Tsunade at best she is her equal in chakra... The only reason people peg her to being above Tsunade is because of Hashirama praising her....
> 
> And Hashirama died before Tsunade even became a ninja....


Don't forget the precious databook that says she's the same level as EMS Sasuke and some form of Kyuubi Naruto


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

BM Naruto.... which is retarded as far as the manga is concern... considering EMS is not even equal to BM to begin with.....


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## Source (Mar 29, 2015)

Yeah, the horn argument doesn't seem all that solid, but, as Waka said, physically contending with Madara's Susano'o should put him in the small city level range. 

Also Kitsuchi's feat is irrelevant.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> BM Naruto.... which is retarded as far as the manga is concern... considering EMS is not even equal to BM to begin with.....



Kishi is a try hard with the whole equality thing but it doesn't work whatsoever.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 1, 2015)

Jane Crocker said:


> Stop being such an insufferable dumbfuck. There is no reason to place Sakura above or at the level of Tsunade.


Other than doing all of her feats? Showing superior firepower? Showing regen just as good?


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## shade0180 (Apr 1, 2015)

> Other than doing all of her feats? Showing superior firepower? Showing regen just as good?




.... What regen?... 

You mean that little stab madara did to her...

Tsunade was cut in half and still had enough chakra to heal the 4 kage

Sakura right after healing herself couldn't even replenish shikamaru...

....
What superior fire power?

If you meant the feat punching the ground that didn't even get up to city level..

Tsunade has feats of being superior to the likes of A and Gaara... in DC department

who has a City level feat on their own..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 2, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> .... What regen?...
> 
> You mean that little stab madara did to her...
> 
> ...


Sakura has the same regeneration technique Tsunade has. She achieved Byakugou no Jutsu. Madara made the direct comparison to it.

Sakura couldn't replenish Shikamaru since her own chakra had been consumed by the Shinju. And she was busy healing everyone else. 

Show a striking feat from Tsunade superior to the one Sakura made.

The manga made it quite clear Sakura has surpassed her master.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 2, 2015)

Technically speaking, Sakura's Juubi clone punch is quantifiably stronger than anything we can calc for Tsuande.

Tsunade just benefits from power scailing feats better do to who she's fought.


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## Monna (Apr 2, 2015)

Not really. That would imply that Sakura is around the level of Madara's susanoo which you'd have to be a mouth-breathing fucking retard to believe.


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## Iwandesu (Apr 2, 2015)

Jane Crocker said:


> Not really. That would imply that Sakura is around the level of Madara's susanoo which you'd have to be a mouth-breathing fucking retard to believe.


why so ? because she is sakura ?
this is just argument from belief
she has the feats and the hype to be at least comparable to tsunade she just is always shadowned by her teammates 
if sakura > tsunade so is she above base madara susanno.


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## Monna (Apr 2, 2015)

Don't believe in dumbfucks like Davychan and Nightbringer. There is no manga proof that Sakura is around Tsunade's level.


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## Regicide (Apr 2, 2015)

This debate looks like it's going well.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 2, 2015)

Jane Crocker said:


> Don't believe in dumbfucks like Davychan and Nightbringer. There is no manga proof that Sakura is around Tsunade's level.


Other than showing a greater striking feat, achieving Byakugo no Jutsu, and getting the title of Konoha's Strongest Medical Ninja. Yeah, no proof. Just because you hate Sakura doesn't mean you can ignore her feats.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 3, 2015)

The "strongest medical ninja" claim, that was a statement from the Last correct? From what I recall their was some debate over whether it was strongest medical ninja or best medical ninja.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Technically speaking, Sakura's Juubi clone punch is quantifiably stronger than anything we can calc for Tsuande.
> 
> Tsunade just benefits from power scailing feats better do to who she's fought.



So does everyone. Sakura has no business being City level or fourth fo that matter. Circular scaling is getting irritating at this point.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 3, 2015)

How is it circular?

4th Raikage = Madara's Susano'o >= Gaara's Sand >= Bijuu physical strength.

That's not circular, that's just basic power scaling.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

When in the world was Raikage in same level as Madara's susano? Please don't bring up the attack which was combined effort of him & Onuki. I know you are not that idiot.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 3, 2015)

He physically stopped one of its attacks. That kinda requires him to be of comparable strength.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> The "strongest medical ninja" claim, that was a statement from the Last correct? From what I recall their was some debate over whether it was strongest medical ninja or best medical ninja.


It was later confirmed it was 'Strongest Medical Ninja' by Seelantau. Sakura clearly surpassed Tsunade during the course of the War.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 3, 2015)

I don't see why we'd apply that to War arc Sakura if it was made in regards to her power in the last.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

First you will have to prove every one of those Susano has city level physical strength. 

And deciding he is city level from one single panel? One panel? That's pretty desperate. Inconsistency exist.You need more than one panel of Raikage stopping unverified striking power of a Susano clone to justify it. Even if those have city level striking strength you will still need more than one panel.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> I don't see why we'd apply that to War arc Sakura if it was made in regards to her power in the last.


Well War Arc Sakura could do everything that Tsunade could do at the end of it, and she doesn't have to maintain a youthful appearance like Tsunade does. She had shown superior striking ability, the ability to heal thousands of shinobi (Just like Tsunade), and the Byakugo no Jutsu just like Tsunade.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 3, 2015)

She doesn't have as good regen feats though. To be honest though, her seal makes no sense. I don't understand how she stored that much chakra in such a short time when she has shit tier reserves.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> She doesn't have as good regen feats though.


She was bathed in acid and regenerated from it. She was stabbed by a fricking GUDODAMA which causes permanent damage to Edo Tensei and regenerated from it. She has the exact same technique as Tsunade. No reason why her's is inferior other than bias against Sakura for being Sakura.


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## Regicide (Apr 3, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> And deciding he is city level from one single panel? One panel? That's pretty desperate. Inconsistency exist.


Uhh, since when? 

That's like saying we can't use a hypersonic feat in some fighting shounen manga because it hasn't been replicated in dozens or hundreds of chapters, even though we do exactly that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> She doesn't have as good regen feats though. To be honest though, her seal makes no sense. I don't understand how she stored that much chakra in such a short time when she has shit tier reserves.


How is it a short time? She has stored it ever since she learned it during the timeskip-thus years of chakra are stored within said seal.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How is it a short time? She has stored it ever since she learned it during the timeskip-thus years of chakra are stored within said seal.



Tsunade ran dry when she's been doing it for decades. She also never had the seal on her until the War Arc.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Tsunade ran dry when she's been doing it for decades. She also never had the seal on her until the War Arc.


Sakura had been storing the chakra for the seal for at least three years, ever since she first started to learn under Tsunade. Tsunade ran dry due to her lack of practice in Part I.

Tsunade also had even LESS chakra stored than Sakura by the time of the War Arc. Remember, she used it all up to save everyone in Konoha. Then by the time of the War she had what, a month, to regenerate enough chakra for her seal?


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## Iwandesu (Apr 3, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> First you will have to prove every one of those Susano has city level physical strength.
> 
> And deciding he is city level from one single panel? One panel? That's pretty desperate. Inconsistency exist.You need more than one panel of Raikage stopping unverified striking power of a Susano clone to justify it. Even if those have city level striking strength you will still need more than one panel.


this is the same susanno that no diffs gaara sand so yeah... city level striking strength for him
and what ?
he and tsunade were fighting those susannos off panel the whole time just like mei and gaara the difference being they didn't get rekt like them
waka just showed the panel where he clearly stops the attack
also the one panel argument is dumb, a feat is a feat is like saying robin is not town level despite grappling that guy becaus eit only happened one time 
or that akainu doesn't have small country endurance because he only got up after being hit by a quake once


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Uhh, since when?
> 
> That's like saying we can't use a hypersonic feat in some fighting shounen manga because it hasn't been replicated in dozens or hundreds of chapters, even though we do exactly that.



Cause I don't know , we can't always calc it maybe?

There is a reason why speed feats are so rare in manga. Cause even though characters crazy fast you can't always calc them because of limitation.  

Just like low end exist outlier & inconsistent feat exists as well. A character holding an arm of susano in a single panel no way indicates you have same level as striking strength as said character.

Also there is difference between calcing a feat & using one small single panel to power scale a feat to a character who hasn't even shown town level striking strength.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> this is the same susanno that no diffs gaara sand so yeah... city level striking strength for him
> and what ?
> he and tsunade were fighting those susannos off panel the whole time just like mei and gaara the difference being they didn't get rekt like them
> waka just showed the panel where he clearly stops the attack
> ...


Shhhh, don't bring up Sherlock's double standards when he's trying his damnedest again to downgrade and downplay the Narutoverse.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> this is the same susanno that no diffs gaara sand so yeah... city level striking strength for him



Correction. Gaara stopped one Susano but he couldn't when multiple ganged up on him. There is a difference.



> and what ?
> he and tsunade were fighting those susannos *off panel* the whole time just like mei and gaara the difference being they didn't get rekt like them



Great argument you got there to support it.



> waka just showed the panel where he clearly stops the attack
> also the one panel argument is dumb, a feat is a feat is like saying robin is not town level despite grappling that guy becaus eit only happened one time



She probably is,probably not. Her ability is unique to stop characters & she didn't do it with one hand , she needed multiple & big ones.  



> or that akainu doesn't have small country endurance because he only got up after being hit by a quake once



He stopped Whitebeard's attack twice & took two quake not one. So yeah he has more than once argument.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 3, 2015)

that is not what inconsistency means


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## Source (Apr 3, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> First you will have to prove every one of those Susano has city level physical strength.



If original Madara's complete Susano'o is city level via powerscaling then so are these.

The Susano'o's level (ribcage, complete, etc.) purely depends on the amount of chakra injected into it. If they were both in the complete stage then they have a similar level of chakra/power in them.

Not like it's a stretch for Edo Madara (or any Madara) to make many of city level Susano'os. The fact that he can create PS at all means that is child's play.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

Source said:


> If original Madara's complete Susano'o is city level via powerscaling then so are these.
> 
> The Susano'o's level (ribcage, complete, etc.) purely depends on the amount of chakra injected into it. If they were both in the complete stage then they have a similar level of chakra/power in them.
> 
> Not like it's a stretch for Edo Madara (or any Madara) to make many of city level Susano'os. The fact that he can create PS at all means that is child's play.



Whether is child's play to him or not is irrelevant. Original madara's Susano has durability to show its city level not striking strength unless I missed a feat where he matched or overwhelmed an attack that is legit city level.


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## shade0180 (Apr 3, 2015)

> She was stabbed by a fricking GUDODAMA which causes permanent damage to Edo Tensei



Gudodama stops active ninjutsu from working not regeneration. 

That's why Sakura can heal and Edo tensei can't. Because edo is not really healing, they are reforming their body because of the passive effect of the Edo tensei Jutsu...



> he has the exact same technique as Tsunade. No reason why her's is inferior other than bias against Sakura for being Sakura.



What bias..... seriously

having the same tech doesn't mean equal power..

You're practically saying that Konohamaru, Minato, Jiraiya and Naruto's rasengan is equal in strength because they are using the same tech..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Gudodama stops active ninjutsu from working not regeneration.
> 
> That's why Sakura can heal and Edo tensei can't. Because edo is not really healing they are reforming their body because of the passive effect of the Edo tensei Jutsu...


But we also have Madara saying that Sakura's usage of Byakugo no Jutsu is the exact same as Tsunade's from said stab.




> What bias..... seriously


That's what it is coming across. 'She's Sakura, so she sucks and we will ignore what the manga's said or shown for her. Since she sucks!'


> having the same tech doesn't mean equal power..





> You're practically saying that Konohamaru, Minato, Jiraiya and Naruto's rasengan is equal in strength because they are using the same tech..


No. Madara said it was the exact same. The only characters who can use Byakugo no Jutsu are granted the same overlapping feats. Madara made the direct comparison it was the same.


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## shade0180 (Apr 3, 2015)

> Original madara's Susano has durability to show its city level not striking strength unless I missed a feat where he matched or overwhelmed an attack that is legit city level.



it did tank a bijudama at point blank range...

*Spoiler*: __ 











> But we also have Madara saying that Sakura's usage of Byakugo no Jutsu is the exact same as Tsunade's from said stab.





> Madara said it was the exact same.





> No. Madara said it was the exact same. The only characters who can use Byakugo no Jutsu are granted the same overlapping feats. Madara made the direct comparison it was the same.



and konohamaru and Naruto's rasengan has the same exact usage.  doesn't mean they are the exact same strength...

They are the same tech. they obviously work the same way as each other...

That's what Madara is saying in the lower left panel...


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> it did tank a bijudama at point blank range...



I was actually talking about the half assed susano he was using on himself against Kage before he got serious.


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## shade0180 (Apr 3, 2015)

Pretty sure Madara's susanoo defences doesn't just magically become weaker considering it's used for defensive purposes...

You're practically saying just because a character lowers its guard, his durability, gets weaker..


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

Are you really going to argue on the premise that his Susano that he used against kages while playing has same level of dc , durability as the one that cut mountains ? I hope not. 

Cause that half assed susano got his its rabcage cracked by Tsunade while the big one tanked bijuu bomb.

Unless of course Tsunade is island level.


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## shade0180 (Apr 3, 2015)

I'm not saying the DC is the same. because DC is far more complicated than that... I'm saying it should be as Durable as before. 



There's no reason for its durability to go down just because it is only showing half of its body..


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

Edited previous post.


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## shade0180 (Apr 3, 2015)

> Unless of course Tsunade is island level.



You do know there's this thing called concentrated damage, right? where a lower tier DC can damage something that's a few tier higher in a concentrated location. 

We have a term for it. 

I forgot what it is called.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

Yeah I do know it. And if you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting then I am leaving this thread.

Don't be desperate enough to justify Raikage's city level so much that you would make Tsunade Island level.


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## shade0180 (Apr 3, 2015)

I'm not saying tsunade is Island level, I'm saying the difference in the surface area between Susanoo's body and Tsunade's fist made a difference, that's why she could crack a small portion out of it...

It's basically a concept of a needle making a small hole out of a wall...


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

I know the concept thank you very much. 

That concept would probably work if the said attack wasn't 1000000 times more powerful than yours & was not tanked in point blank range.


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## shade0180 (Apr 3, 2015)

> 1000000 times more powerful




Er 1,000,000?

City level -> island 

pretty sure the difference is not that much...


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## Sherlōck (Apr 3, 2015)

Kyuubi Bijju Bomb is teraton level if I remember it right.  

Even if its tripple digit Gigaton its still 100000 times more powerful .


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## LazyWaka (Apr 3, 2015)

Wait, why is his PS being brought up? That's by far superior to his regular Susano'o.

Also, I just double checked, actually it was filler when Madara's complete susano'o overpowered Gaara's sand. It still has city level durability, but not striking power. The best it has is when 5 of them broke through Gaara's sand, meaning you have to divide the overall value by 5 to get a value for a single complete Susano'o.

Basically it means that the Raikage is more along the lines of Town level+ rather than city level.


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## Source (Apr 3, 2015)

What do the Bijuu get city level striking strength from anyway? 

aside from that controversial KE calc

they _can_ damage each other with physical attacks from what I remember.


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## TheGloryXros (Apr 3, 2015)

Their tail slap feat.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 3, 2015)

Well, theirs Hachibi's forest spin. But yeah, mostly the KE calc.


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## Tir (Apr 3, 2015)

PS is, at the very least, as strong and as durable as Kyuubi. Heck, official translation even noted that it is stronger than the meteor feat.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 3, 2015)

I know PS is way beyond that. It's stated to pack as much power as a Bijuu which puts it solidly in the island level+ range. I'm just talking about his regular Susano'o.


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## Tir (Apr 3, 2015)

It should be solid city level range. The incomplete one was about to block SM Naruto's RS. There was a reason why Gaara pull him out of it. I mean, it'd be weird if Madara who can tank continuous slaps from the bijuu (including Kyuubi) to be as durable as Susano'o. Susano'o gotta be stronger than that. Oh well.

Anyway, a feat is a feat even if it only showed just once in the manga. Since when do we start nitpicking about feat that did happen? Too many excuses that it is laughable and comes off as a sign of insecurity.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> iand konohamaru and Naruto's rasengan has the same exact usage.  doesn't mean they are the exact same strength...


Konohamaru's the size of a golfball, while Naruto's is the size of a basket ball. Don't make an erroneous comparison since you hate Sakura and don't want her to have the same feats as Tsunade/


> They are the same tech. they obviously work the same way as each other...


Correct me if I'm wrong-was Sakura's Byakugo ever shown inferior to Tsunade's in size? No, then stop using that comparison. It doesn't work and you know it. Its just showing bias.



Sherlōck said:


> Kyuubi Bijju Bomb is teraton level if I remember it right.


7 Teratons or more.



LazyWaka said:


> Wait, why is his PS being brought up? That's by far superior to his regular Susano'o.
> 
> Also, I just double checked, actually it was filler when Madara's complete susano'o overpowered Gaara's sand. It still has city level durability, but not striking power. The best it has is when 5 of them broke through Gaara's sand, meaning you have to divide the overall value by 5 to get a value for a single complete Susano'o.
> 
> Basically it means that the Raikage is more along the lines of Town level+ rather than city level.


Even though A's Gyuki horn chop smashed the Eight Tails to the ground as a passive effect?


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## shade0180 (Apr 3, 2015)

> you *hate* Sakura and don't want her to have the same feats as Tsunade/



The fuck.  

Seriously... .why is it every time that we are talking about sakura, it always end up with this hate thing just because you disagree with people who inflate her.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 3, 2015)

Tir said:


> It should be solid city level range. The incomplete one was about to block SM Naruto's RS. There was a reason why Gaara pull him out of it. I mean, it'd be weird if Madara who can tank continuous slaps from the bijuu (including Kyuubi) to be as durable as Susano'o. Susano'o gotta be stronger than that. Oh well.



That would only be for it's durability. Also he had senjutsu at the time.


That was when Madara was being amped by Senjutsu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> The fuck.
> 
> Seriously... .why is it every time that we are talking about sakura, it always end up with this hate thing just because you disagree with people who inflate her.


Since that is what it seems to be coming down to, Shade. The manga made it abundantly clear Sakura surpassed her master. _The Last_ even called Sakura the 'Leaf's Strongest Medical Ninja'. Her Byakugo no Jutsu wasn't shown to be inferior in size or power to Tsunade, yet you cat like it is just because _Sakura_ used it over Tsunade's. Hell, Sakura could  while Tsunade


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## Deer Lord (Apr 3, 2015)

It doesn't seem to make much sense to put raikage at city-level honestly

He was shown to bust sussano rib-cage (which is city-block~mcb level) 
but he failed to bust complete sussano without oonoki amping him.
He was also shown to matching V1 bee's physical power when they beheaded Not!Kisame.

So I'd say town-level.


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## Source (Apr 3, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Well, theirs Hachibi's forest spin. But yeah, mostly the KE calc.



Technically the KE calc divided by 5 is ~3 megatons so small city level.


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## Alita (Apr 4, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> It doesn't seem to make much sense to put raikage at city-level honestly
> 
> He was shown to bust sussano rib-cage (which is city-block~mcb level)
> but he failed to bust complete sussano without oonoki amping him.
> ...


Kakuzu tanked a physical attack from a bijuu and I don't see why itachi, sasuke, and or madara's susano would be any less durable than him. we also have A threatening to one shot KCM naruto who has city level dura at the least.



Source said:


> Technically the KE calc divided by 5 is ~3 megatons so small city level.


It's actually 14.5 megatons. The total energy to knock away all 5 bijuu charging simultaneously is 72.5 megatons.


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## Source (Apr 4, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> It's actually 14.5 megatons. The total energy to knock away all 5 bijuu charging simultaneously is 72.5 megatons.



Yeah but that's for Naruto's roar.

According to Waka it took five complete Susano'os to overwhelm Gaara's sand which is equal to a Bijuu's physical strength which is 14.5 megatons.

14.5 divided by 5 is 2.9 megatons for one Complete Susano'o then.

Still not quite sure that calc is OK but whatever.


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## Deer Lord (Apr 4, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> Kakuzu tanked a physical attack from a bijuu and I don't see why itachi, sasuke, and or madara's susano would be any less durable than him. we also have A threatening to one shot KCM naruto who has city level dura at the least.


Kakuzo has Dumo doesn't he?
And I could buy into complete sussano having city-level dura, but A can't break it so why does it matter?

And what dura feats does KCm naruto have?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 4, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Kakuzo has Dumo doesn't he?
> And I could buy into complete sussano having city-level dura, but A can't break it so why does it matter?
> 
> And what dura feats does KCm naruto have?


Kakuzu didn't even get to use Doton: Domu when Matatabi stomped him. He was flattened...but perfectly fine. 

KCM Naruto is at least as durable as Sage Mode Naruto, who could survive being .

A could probably break through a straight MS complete Susano'o given Danzo was able to fillet Sasuke's.


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## Alita (Apr 4, 2015)

Source said:


> Yeah but that's for Naruto's roar.
> 
> According to Waka it took five complete Susano'os to overwhelm Gaara's sand which is equal to a Bijuu's physical strength which is 14.5 megatons.
> 
> ...



Oh okay. I still think it can be argued that A is city level based on some of the characters he has threatened to harm though like KCM naruto and kisame.



Deer Lord said:


> Kakuzo has Dumo doesn't he?
> And I could buy into complete sussano having city-level dura, but A can't break it so why does it matter?
> 
> And what dura feats does KCm naruto have?



What saiyaman said.


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