# KCM Naruto vs The legendary Sannin



## Psp123789 (Nov 17, 2013)

-Location : Madara vs 5 Kages

-Starting distance : 50 meters.

- Knowledge : Manga.

- State of mind : Bloodlusted 

- Restrictions : BM/BSM, and any edo besides Tobirama and Hashirama

- Conditions: 
- jirayia starts in sage mode and has ownership over all of the toad boss summons
- Tsunade can summon 100% katsuyu if she wants to
- Oro can ONLY summon Hashirama and Tobirama BUT THEY CAN ONLY USE THE ABILITIES THEY SHOWED AGAINST THE 3RD HOKAGE.
- Naruto has sealing tags


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## Coppur (Nov 17, 2013)

> Tsunade can summon 100% katsuyu if she wants to


Katsuyu the forbidden one solos


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## Trojan (Nov 17, 2013)

By portrayal Naruto only surpassed Jman with KCM. So, the sannin win this.
Also, since you allowed ET for oro, this is a stomp thread.


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## Bonly (Nov 17, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> - Tsunade can summon 100% katsuyu if she wants to



The Queen of Solo, the Itachi of summoning, the killer of Bijuu, the destroyer of two Geniuses, The Great Katsuyu-Sama solos :blindkatsuyu


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## Ersa (Nov 17, 2013)

Can Naruto even kill 100% Katsuyu?

FRS aren't doing shit to something that dwarfs the Juubi tree.


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

while KCM naruto is better overall than any sanin, all at once would be too much, especially if jiraya goes sage mode,

even if naruto manages to beat them he has to deal with the summons and the edo tensei's,

its too much for him too handle,


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## richard lewis (Nov 17, 2013)

Elia said:


> By portrayal Naruto only surpassed Jman with KCM. So, the sannin win this.
> Also, since you allowed ET for oro, this is a stomp thread.



lol what? by portrayal naruto surpassed jiraiya with SM and minato with rm.

naruto takes this, I fail to see  how the sannin can put him down when he has superior speed and strength and with KB's can have superior number as well. naruto has giant rasengan guided FRS that even the raikage couldn't dodge and immunity to genjutsu which means frog song won't work and that was pretty much the sannins only shot at victory.


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

^ i think you are confusing this with BM naruto,

this naruto is the one that fought A,


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## Trojan (Nov 17, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> lol what? by portrayal naruto surpassed jiraiya with SM and minato with rm.
> 
> naruto takes this, I fail to see  how the sannin can put him down when he has superior speed and strength and with KB's can have superior number as well. naruto has giant rasengan guided FRS that even the raikage couldn't dodge and immunity to genjutsu which means frog song won't work and that was pretty much the sannins only shot at victory.



lol what? 
Naruto surpassed them with SM only, Jman was not able to complete it, and Minato was not
able to even use it, while Naruto perfected it. 

In chapter 634 the name of the chapter IS A new three-way deadlock 
and this page linked  team 7 directly to the sannin and how they surpassed them
here

gets your facts straights.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 17, 2013)

Does Yomi Numa screw over Naruto, or can he get out of it?


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Does Yomi Numa screw over Naruto, or can he get out of it?




Naruto could push full sized Bijuudama in KCM. He swims through it.


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## Dr. White (Nov 17, 2013)

TBB =/ Yomi Numa  

If Naruto got hit with that chances are he'd be screwed. Only thing that could ave him fron that would be chakra arms


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2013)

Pushing around those dense Bijuudama speaks volumes about his physical capabilities. He escapes it in the same way Tsunade would escape it. Unless of course you believe Jiraiya can immobilize Tsunade casually with Yomi Numa.


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto could push full sized Bijuudama in KCM. He swims through it.



scan ?

i dont recall KCM naruto pushing a BD,


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## Dr. White (Nov 17, 2013)

That was BM Naruto first of all.

Second off certain attacks have different properties, hence why Naruto admitted he would have gotten soloed by amaterasu despite it's DC capability being < TBB. Yomi Numa sinks someone like quick sand, then only way one gets out of that is pure strength hence why I said his chakra arms are his only hope. Seeing as it sunk the path quite easily as well as a snake summon ot isn;t too farfetched to say it has alot of strength.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 17, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> - Tsunade can summon 100% katsuyu if she wants to


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2013)

KCM Naruto pushed Bee's Bijudama through the barrier kids.

And you keep telling me things I already know. Naruto should be plenty strong enough to just swim out of the swamp, just as Tsunade would.


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## Bonly (Nov 17, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> scan ?
> 
> i dont recall KCM naruto pushing a BD,



B shoots off a Bijuudama here and then Naruto goes and starts to push it here and keep doing it until they are out.


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## The World (Nov 17, 2013)

Sannin take this mid-high difficulty


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## Dr. White (Nov 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> KCM Naruto pushed Bee's Bijudama through the barrier kids.
> 
> And you keep telling me things I already know. Naruto should be plenty strong enough to just swim out of the swamp, just as Tsunade would.



KCM Naruto wasn't strong enough to break out of Mecha path's wires, or break out of Bjuu coral yet he can automatically break through quicksand from a kage lvl opponent.... sorry if I'm a bit questionable


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## richard lewis (Nov 17, 2013)

Elia said:


> lol what?
> Naruto surpassed them with SM only, Jman was not able to complete it, and Minato was not
> able to even use it, while Naruto perfected it.
> 
> ...



umm im confused.... are you agreeing or disagreeing that naruto surpassed jiraiya with SM? 

Wither way like I said in my previous post frog song was pretty much the sannins only shot at winning but partner method with kurama prevents that so naruto wins high diff


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> KCM Naruto wasn't strong enough to break out of Mecha path's wires, or break out of Bjuu coral yet he can automatically break through quicksand from a kage lvl opponent.... sorry if I'm a bit questionable




I don't know why Yomi Numa is now stronger than Nagato's Asura Path. It held down Bee, who overpowered the Raikage in a direct physical contest. 

The Bijuu coral is the signature ability of a Bijuu, used by a Version 2 Kage. Again, Yomi Numa is stronger why? It's greatest feat is trapping that snake summon, but those snakes aren't stronger than KCM Naruto. I'm doubtful that they're even stronger than Zero-Tailed preskip Naruto, who smacked a large snake around.


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## Dr. White (Nov 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't know why Yomi Numa is now stronger than Nagato's Asura Path. It held down Bee, who overpowered the Raikage in a direct physical contest.
> 
> The Bijuu coral is the signature ability of a Bijuu, used by a Version 2 Kage. Again, Yomi Numa is stronger why? It's greatest feat is trapping that snake summon, but those snakes aren't stronger than KCM Naruto. I'm doubtful that they're even stronger than Zero-Tailed preskip Naruto, who smacked a large snake around.



because of the nature of quicksand. Power does not patter in those situations. The paths have shown to be extremely powerful and don;t have nerves like normal humans so by your logic escaping wouldn't be hard for them. The snake summon Jiraiaya trapped was no where near the one Naruto escaped from and even then all he did was destroy the snake by creating more mass than the snake could handle not exactly Naruto outpowering him. 

You are taking the bjuu;s coral off of hype and I am taking Yomi Numa off of a kage level ninja's hype is there really a major difference? Most kage worth their salt can keep up with bjuu not named Hachibi or Kyuubi per cannon.


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## richard lewis (Nov 17, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> because of the nature of quicksand. Power does not patter in those situations. The paths have shown to be extremely powerful and don;t have nerves like normal humans so by your logic escaping wouldn't be hard for them. The snake summon Jiraiaya trapped was no where near the one Naruto escaped from and even then all he did was destroy the snake by creating more mass than the snake could handle not exactly Naruto outpowering him.
> 
> You are taking the bjuu;s coral off of hype and I am taking Yomi Numa off of a kage level ninja's hype is there really a major difference? Most kage worth their salt can keep up with bjuu not named Hachibi or Kyuubi per cannon.



and why exactly can't naruto pull himself out of the swamp with chakra arms?


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## Rocky (Nov 18, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Because of the nature of quicksand. Power does not matter in those situations.




Do you believe Yomi Numa would sink Perfect Susnao'o? Normal Susano'o? Tsunade? Gated Gai?


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## ueharakk (Nov 18, 2013)

Elia said:


> By portrayal Naruto only surpassed Jman with KCM. So, the sannin win this.





Elia said:


> lol what?
> Naruto surpassed them with SM only, Jman was not able to complete it, and Minato was not
> able to even use it, while Naruto perfected it.




and no, Sakura hasn't even surpassed tsunade seeing how tsunade can do what kyuubi cloaked sakura can't, and the fact that gamakichi and aoda are both inferior to bunta and manda.





The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Does Yomi Numa screw over Naruto, or can he get out of it?



he stretches a chakra arm, grabs dry land and pulls himself out.  He makes a kagebunshin to use as a foothold and throws himself out.  He summons a boss to use as a foothold and jumps out.  He makes an few oodama rasengans and destroys whatever swamp is around him.


As for the thread, Naruto wins this.  His clones are kage level, part 1 hashirama and tobirama are jokes. Tsunade can't handle a clone that can throw a jutsu sandaime raikage can't dodge and she can't survive.  Orochimaru's in the same boat, his feats are actually pretty bad.  Jiraiya is the tough cookie if he's in SM, it would probably require more than 1 clone to beat him but Naruto has the capacity to summon a small army.  He makes a clone or two for each of the sannin and the jokekages while the real one takes on the juubi's wife.

that's where things get interesting, I'm sure that Chou oodama FRS would destroy any katsuya caught inside the wind sphere but it probably would struggle to take out 10% of her.


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## Trojan (Nov 18, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> umm im confused.... are you agreeing or disagreeing that naruto surpassed jiraiya with SM?
> 
> Wither way like I said in my previous post frog song was pretty much the sannins only shot at winning but partner method with kurama prevents that so naruto wins high diff



Naruto surpassed Jman in SM as a jutsu, not overall. However, he surpassed him overall with
KCM. 

I was not talking about who will win! 



ueharakk said:


> and no, Sakura hasn't even surpassed tsunade seeing how tsunade can do what kyuubi cloaked sakura can't, and the fact that gamakichi and aoda are both inferior to bunta and manda.
> .



- Well, the manga seems to disagree. @.@
When Hashi stated that Sakura'a power surpassed that of Tsunade (and actually her feat is indeed greater) and when Sakura stated that she does not have the weakness of that jutsu as Tsunade! 

- How do you know that gamakichi is weaker? It has even SM, while his father does not as far as we know!


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2013)

Clone tossing works.  I forgot about it.

Also, if Naruto's clones were really or were still kage level, I expect he wouldn't have needed saving by Hiruzen, or needed kage support.

Rather, I expect he would make fifty kage clones and ended the war, or use himself at 50x kage power and soloed.  But that's not happening.  

More than likely, Naruto's clones got a temporary boost during the middle of the war arc, like Kakuzu and Hidan got a temporary nerf at the end of the Immortal's arc.  Kishi was told to bring back Naruto before he planned, so he flew him in and broke his clone limits to be present and useful.  Just like when Kishi was told to bring back Naruto and end the Immortal's arc, Kakuzu got dropped to Chunin level so he could become FRS test fodder, when he had previously been soloing Kakashi and support, and Hidan got soloed by Shikamaru.  Shikamaru, similarly, isn't viewed as a master of speed and taijutsu for his ability to pull of delicate maneuvers on, as well as evade hits from Hidan.  (The Hidan who toyed with Asuma the taijutsu specialized upper end Jonin while evading Shikamaru's shadow stitching assault.)  Now Naruto's clones, while awesome, are still back to following the rules of regular clones.  

So yeah, he may win, but the "his clones kill kages so he stomps multiple high tiers with them," argument doesn't feel right to me.  No more than the argument that Prime Hiruzen stomps everyone because he was stated to be the God of Shinobi back in Part 1 does to most people.  But hey, those things did happen, and those statements were made, so you know, read the manga how you want.


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## ueharakk (Nov 18, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Also, if Naruto's clones were really or were still kage level, I expect he wouldn't have needed saving by Hiruzen, or needed kage support.


Naruto doesn't spam clones when he has massive support and why wouldn't he need saving by hiruzen if the god tree drains all of his chakra thus no chakra to make clones?  And the whole "i'd expect" argument fails since there's a ton of things that "i'd expect" people to do in the manga that they are fully capable of doing but don't do purely because plot demands they don't beat the bad guy or good guy at that point in time.  



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Rather, I expect he would make fifty kage clones and ended the war, or use himself at 50x kage power and soloed.  But that's not happening.


how would making 50 kage level clones end the war when you are up against the juubi, Obito and Madara?  Put 50 Eis against those guys and what does he do?  Nothing.  Put 50 tsunades against those guys and what does she do?  Summon katsuya, have it get blown to smitherines and nothing.  Put 50 meis against those guys and what do they do?  Give up 50 times.  Put 50 gaaras against those guys and what does he do?  Block maybe one mountain-range buster or two mountain-range busters and then get destroyed.  Oonoki... that's debatable, but it doesn't matter since oonoki isn't the cuttoff for kage level.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> More than likely, Naruto's clones got a temporary boost during the middle of the war arc, like Kakuzu and Hidan got a temporary nerf at the end of the Immortal's arc.  Kishi was told to bring back Naruto before he planned, so he flew him in and broke his clone limits to be present and useful.  Just like when Kishi was told to bring back Naruto and end the Immortal's arc, Kakuzu got dropped to Chunin level so he could become FRS test fodder, when he had previously been soloing Kakashi and support, and Hidan got soloed by Shikamaru.  Shikamaru, similarly, isn't viewed as a master of speed and taijutsu for his ability to pull of delicate maneuvers on, as well as evade hits from Hidan.  (The Hidan who toyed with Asuma the taijutsu specialized upper end Jonin while evading Shikamaru's shadow stitching assault.)  Now Naruto's clones, while awesome, are still back to following the rules of regular clones.


How did exactly did Kakuzu drop to chuunin level?  Kakashi wasn't using kamui and was confident that he would have been able to kill kakuzu if forced to use that technique.  Naruto was explicitly stated to have been unrestricted kakashi's equal or probably superior after gaining that 50% FRS and that's all just a hype based argument. 

Naruto's clones aren't just kagelevel by hype, they are kage level by both feats and hype.  Same as madara's mokuton clones and no feats have contradicted the abilities of Naruto's KCM clones.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> So yeah, he may win, but the "his clones kill kages so he stomps multiple high tiers with them," argument doesn't feel right to me.  No more than the argument that Prime Hiruzen stomps everyone because he was stated to be the God of Shinobi back in Part 1 does to most people.  But hey, those things did happen, and those statements were made, so you know, read the manga how you want.


Um yeah, that might only be true if we were just saying his clones are kage level by hype, but even by feats they are kagelevel so the whole 'prime hiruzen' retcon does not work.  In addition to that, no one's abilities are retconned down, current hiruzen doesn't have feats that put him below  his old self back when he was hyped above hashirama, its just other people's strength have been retconned up.



Elia said:


> - Well, the manga seems to disagree. @.@
> When Hashi stated that Sakura'a power surpassed that of Tsunade (and actually her feat is indeed greater) and when Sakura stated that she does not have the weakness of that jutsu as Tsunade!


that doesn't even matter.  If Sakura has surpassed tsunade, then tsunade wouldn't still be schooling sakura on medical ninjutsu.  Thus the only case you could make is that Sakura 'might' be able to hit harder than tsunade because she's young, nothing about sakura surpassing her master.  That's why Sakura is currently not outshining her master despite being powered up by the Kyuubi chakra cloak.



Elia said:


> - How do you know that gamakichi is weaker? It has even SM, while his father does not as far as we know!


He's weaker because he's smaller.  If Gamakichi's oil has senjutsu chakra than gamabunta's oil would have senjutsu chakra as well seeing as he's way older than gamakichi and trains in the same place as gamakichi and kichi was never noted as some kind of child protegee among the toads.


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## ARGUS (Dec 3, 2013)

Considering the edos of hashi and tobirama are fodder 
Naruto KCM takes it quite easily 

Makes 3 clones to stomp tsunade 
Makes 10 clones to beat jiraiya 
Easily takes on the rest by himself


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## Mercurial (Dec 3, 2013)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Considering the edos of hashi and tobirama are fodder
> Naruto KCM takes it quite easily
> 
> Makes 3 clones to stomp tsunade
> ...



Actually 1 clone for each is more than enough.


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 3, 2013)

> > Originally Posted by xxHKCDxx  View Post
> > Considering the edos of hashi and tobirama are fodder
> > Naruto KCM takes it quite easily
> >
> ...



I see the Sannin taking this more times than not.

Tsunade
Tsunade is outclassed in terms of combat and so I don't see her engaging Naruto. 
As she can summon 100% Katsuyu, I see her attaching a Katsuyu clone on Orochimaru, Jiraiya, the toad summons and  snake summons, proceeding to camp inside a near 100% version of Katsuyu or inside one of the other summons, in order to prevent a speed blitz.

These mini clones of Katsuyu will serve 2 main purposes:
- healing; 
- to increase their field of vision;
- to relay information between the party;
- as means of chakra transfer.

Orochimaru
Orochimaru can summon his snake summons in order to make up for the number disparity if Naruto does choose to create clones. Furthermore, he can summon Hashirama and Tobirama for support. Fully aware that his edo tensei's far from perfect, I can see him using them as support rather than as means to attack Naruto.  

I think in this instance Orochimaru's best means to disable Naruto would be to use Gogyō Fūin in order to seal or disturb the latter's chakra. And with all the summons present, I find it hard believe that Naruto will be able to easily utilize his Rasengan variation techniques and or avoid constant assault from Orochimaru.

I understand that Orochimaru does not have the speed and perception that SM Jiraiya or KCM Naruto have. But I believe his insane durability, regeneration, nimbleness granted by Shirohebi no Chikara, augmented by Tsunade's healing and increased field of vision will be more than enough to make up for this.

Jiraiya
As with Orochimaru, Jiraiya will have his toad summons for support. His ability (although implied) to use Gogyō Fūin will also be one of his main techniques in order to disable Naruto. However, unlike Orochimaru, Jiraiya will be able to keep up with KCM Naruto to a greater extent, although not entirely. What he lacks in durability, he can make for with his heightened perceptiveness, further augmented by the increase field of vision provided by Katsuyu. Moreover, the constant healing that Katsuyu will provide will suffice to counteract most injuries he may sustain. The chakra transfer provided by Tsunade will also allow Jiraiya to utilise his vast arsenal of jutsus to a greater extent.

Another essential factor in Jiraiya's is Gama Rinshō, and with Katsuyu providing medical support, this may allow Fukasaku and Shima to utilise this technique more times than usual.

 EDIT: As a team they have decades of experience on Naruto coupled with experience in collaborating with each other. The Sannin have a likely win, if BM and BSM are restricted. Without restrictions, they lose more times than not. But then again, there's barely a handful of characters in Naruto who can go against BM and BSM.


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## Ghost (Dec 3, 2013)

nice necro.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 3, 2013)

Sannin win this lord Queen Katsuyu Sama takes him


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## richard lewis (Dec 3, 2013)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> I see the Sannin taking this more times than not.
> 
> Tsunade
> Tsunade is outclassed in terms of combat and so I don't see her engaging Naruto.
> ...



I dont see how camping in katsyu would achieve anything? eventually the sannin will have to some out to face naruto. Even with tsunade's healing non of the sannin are tanking an FRS, hell even a giant rasengan would be enough to put down J-man. Naruto simply dominate's them once they come out of hiding. nothing in there arsenal poses even a slight threat to KCM naruto, he can easily dodge anything they throw at him.


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## fior fior (Dec 3, 2013)

> - Restrictions : BM/BSM, and any edo *besides* Tobirama and Hashirama



Do you realize what that means? Ooro can summon both Tobirama and Hashirama and this fight ends in a brutal murder. Naruto is going to be a yogurt stain on the dirt.


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 3, 2013)

> I dont see how camping in katsyu would achieve anything? eventually the sannin will have to some out to face naruto.



First of all, I didn't say that all three Sannin would be hiding inside Katsuyu, just Tsunade in order to carry out her role as a support without being interrupted .



> Even with tsunade's healing non of the sannin are tanking an FRS, hell even a giant rasengan would be enough to put down J-man.



I didn't say that they would be tanking  a FRS. How would Naruto manage to land a FRS exactly? In terms of Jiraiya, he has enhanced reflexes and speed. Fukasaku, Shima and Katsuyu granting him greatly enhanced area of sight. A long distance FRS is not touching him.
If Naruto opts to thrust FRS then he puts himself vulnerable of being cast under Gama Rinshō,  Ranjishigami no Jutsu or Gamaguchi Shibari , either one of which will incapacitate him. This is assuming that Orochimaru or any of the summons don't attempt intercept the attack or detain him when he's focused on attacking Jiraiya.



> Naruto simply dominate's them once they come out of hiding. nothing in there arsenal poses even a slight threat to KCM Naruto, he can easily dodge anything they throw at him.



I don't think you're grasping the amount of players that are operating on the Sannin's side:
-  Jiraiya
- Orochimaru
- Tsunade
- Gamabunta
- Fukasaka
- Shima
- Gamahiro
- Gamaken
- Manda
- Numerous snake summon
- 100% Katsuyu (5% Katsuyu is the size of a tailed beast)

All of them will connected by Katsuyu which would significantly improve their collaborative capabilities. All of them will have Tsunade pumping chakra to them via Katsuyu should they need it, amplifying all of their jutsus.

It really seems like you didn't even read the whole of my previous post. You shouldn't really be quoting a whole post and replying to it as a whole when you haven't considered it in its entirety.


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## richard lewis (Dec 3, 2013)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> First of all, I didn't say that all three Sannin would be hiding inside Katsuyu, just Tsunade in order to carry out her role as a support without being interrupted .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Naruto can use FRS at mid range and guide it with his chakra arms, jiraiya isn't dodging that. As for lions mane and other hair jutsu, naruto could most likely just bat them away with chakra arms, or destroy them with reasengan. 



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> I don't think you're grasping the amount of players that are operating on the Sannin's side:
> -  Jiraiya
> - Orochimaru
> - Tsunade
> ...



Naruto's shadow clone was strong enough to face off against kage lvl ninja such as Muu and the raikage. So if he creates 6-7 clones thats equivalent to 6-7 kage lvl ninja running around. All of his shadow clones can create more shadow clones and they can all use FRS, mini buju dama, rasengan, ect.... Naruto also has chakra sensing to avoid getting hit from his blind spot if he is being double/triple teamed.

Idk how you figure 5% of katsuyu is as big as a buju? when was this stated? where are you getting these arbitrary percentages from? and regardless of how big katsuyu is it posses little threat to naruto as he can easily dodge it's acid, so all naruto has to do is chase down tsunade and once she dies katsuyu goes poof.


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## Csdabest (Dec 3, 2013)

Lol Naruto gets stomped soo hard


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## Kyu (Dec 3, 2013)

lel

Naruto checks these legendary clowns into the smackdown hotel.


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 3, 2013)

> Naruto's shadow clone was strong enough to face off against kage lvl ninja such as Muu and the raikage. So if he creates 6-7 clones thats equivalent to 6-7 kage lvl ninja running around. .....



The logic of A fought B and therefore can fight C is not a very strong argument.

Firstly, Sandaime Raikage and Mū's fighting styles are very different from Orochimaru and Jiraiya's style. Sandaime relies on Nintaijutsu which means that he has relies on his strength, armour and speed. All of which means that he has to physically assault his opponents. On other hand, Muu's style relies on his kekkei tōta, stealth and flight. 

You cannot compare this to SM Jiraiya, who has access to ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjustu, senjutsu, Kuchiyose no Jutsu, as well as collaborative technique. Same with Orochimaru, both have an infinitely larger arsenal displayed than the aforementioned kages. I'm not saying that if these party clashed that the Sannins would win. I merely want to state that their fighting styles are not even in the slightest comparable, therefore just because someone can fight the former doesn't mean they will be as successful with the latter. 

Secondly, it's inaccurate that one shadow clone was enough to face off with each of the kage mentioned. Against Sandaime, the Kage Bunshin had assistance from Ao and the Fourth Division in the battlefield and tactical assistance from Gyūki. Against Mū' , the Kage Bunshin had more substantial assistance in the from of two current kages. 



> All of his shadow clones can create more shadow clones and they can all use FRS, mini buju dama, rasengan, ect



You seem to be under the impression that they will be tanking these? They won't be. Naruto has never blitzed anyone while performing the above techniques in KCM in the same fashion as the Minato. He usually charges at them, uses his chakra arms or throws them from a distance, giving Jiraiya, Orochimaru and their summons sufficient time to react. 



> Naruto also has chakra sensing to avoid getting hit from his blind spot if he is being double/triple teamed



How is he going to protect his blind spots when Jiraiya and Gamabunta, Orochimaru, Katsuyu are all able to utilise area of effect attacks. All capable of further amplification via Tsunade's chakra.



> Idk how you figure 5% of katsuyu is as big as a buju? when was this stated? where are you getting these arbitrary percentages from? and regardless of how big katsuyu is it posses little threat to naruto as he can easily dodge it's acid, so all naruto has to do is chase down tsunade and once she dies katsuyu goes poof.



I suggest you revisit the manga before accusing me of using 'arbitrary percentages'. It makes you seem severely uninformed. 

The portion of Katsuyu summoned by Tsunade is without a doubt of the same scale as the tailed beasts. As can be seen in the Sannin showdown, Katsuyu is easily as big, if not bigger than Gamabunta. The same Gamabunta who is roughly the same size as Shukaku and Kurama (bar his tails).

In the current arc, Tsunade stated that with Sakura there with her, they will be able to summon 1/10 of Katsuyu's full form. This leads to the logical inference that each of them can summon 1/20 of Katsuyu.



​


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 3, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> Actually 1 clone for each is more than enough.



I tried to stay safe 
Just in case some fanboy disagrees 
But Yh I agree


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## richard lewis (Dec 3, 2013)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> The logic of A fought B and therefore can fight C is not a very strong argument.
> 
> Firstly, Sandaime Raikage and Mū's fighting styles are very different from Orochimaru and Jiraiya's style. Sandaime relies on Nintaijutsu which means that he has relies on his strength, armour and speed. All of which means that he has to physically assault his opponents. On other hand, Muu's style relies on his kekkei tōta, stealth and flight.
> 
> ...



1. I never stated that the sannin have a similar fighting style to anyone. All I said is that naruto's KB's where clashing with kage lvl ninja, and they where. I also never stated that naruto's KB's solo'd any of the edo kages, again I said they clashed with them. Although I do think that w/o edo regene FRS would have killed the raikage. Either way my point still stands that just 1 of naruto's KB's can compete with a kage lvl ninja regardless of their fighting style. His clones posses speed that is on par with if not superior to the 3rd raikage as well as the fire power to put down virtually any ninja or summon "with the exception of katsuyu". 

2. genjutsu is irrelevant b/c kurama can break naruto out. naruto can create a dozen+ clones which can spam rasengan variants and mini BD out the wazoo. Naruto may not have blitzed anyone but he has kept up with very fast opponents "Ei, sandaime, V2 jins, ect..." and he can use his chakra arms to tag opponents from angles where they can't dodge like he did against Muu and sandaime. I don't see how the sannin expect to kill naruto? there summons can't do much in that regard, oro lacks the fire power, and I doubt tsunade is gunna be able to land a punch nor will jiraiya be able to land rasengan. How will the even know which naruto is the real one when he has over a dozen clone running around?



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> I suggest you revisit the manga before accusing me of using 'arbitrary percentages'. It makes you seem severely uninformed.
> 
> The portion of Katsuyu summoned by Tsunade is without a doubt of the same scale as the tailed beasts. As can be seen in the Sannin showdown, Katsuyu is easily as big, if not bigger than Gamabunta. The same Gamabunta who is roughly the same size as Shukaku and Kurama (bar his tails).
> 
> ...


I stand corrected, I was under the impression that the katsuyu tsunade used in the sannin battle in part one was katsuyu's full power/size which apparently may be wrong. Either way tsunade appears to lake the chakra to summon the full sized katsuyu and she has never done so in the manga, so lets refrain from making assumptions here.


----------



## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 3, 2013)

> I stand corrected, I was under the impression that the katsuyu tsunade used in the sannin battle in part one was katsuyu's full power/size which apparently may be wrong. Either way tsunade appears to lake the chakra to summon the full sized katsuyu and she has never done so in the manga, so lets refrain from making assumptions here.



The condition of the match up allows for Tsunade to summon Katsuyu at 100% if she wishes.



> Conditions:
> - jirayia starts in sage mode and has ownership over all of the toad boss summons
> - Tsunade can summon 100% katsuyu if she wants to
> - Oro can ONLY summon Hashirama and Tobirama BUT THEY CAN ONLY USE THE ABILITIES THEY SHOWED AGAINST THE 3RD HOKAGE.
> - Naruto has sealing tags


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## richard lewis (Dec 3, 2013)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> The condition of the match up allows for Tsunade to summon Katsuyu at 100% if she wishes.



I see, well it's impossible to say what 100% katsuyu could do, but assuming it's just a bigger version I don't see how that changes anything. like I said b4 naruto just targets tsunade and pays katsuyu no mind. all it can do is spit acid which naruto easily dodges.


----------



## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 3, 2013)

> 1. . Either way my point still stands that just 1 of naruto's KB's can compete with a kage lvl ninja regardless of their fighting style. His clones posses speed that is on par with if not superior to the 3rd raikage as well as the fire power to put down virtually any ninja or summon "with the exception of katsuyu".



You misunderstood the point of my post. It was intended to show that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are far more versatile (which may be down to better character development) than the Sandaime and Mū. Naruto is all about match-ups, regardless of ranking, one character will always be more effective or less effective against another character. 

I understand that Naruto has speed comparable to Minato but how does this further your argument. The sheer number of opponents he has to face will overwhelm him. I have already mentioned how each Sannin and their summon will perform an integral role in taking him down i.e. Katsuyu acting as a telepathic link between the Sannin and all their summon, providing them with virtually no blind spots, and allowing them to intercept or detain Naruto if his target is unable to. 

Please read my previous post this has been explained extensively.

Why does is matter that if he has the fire power to kill them? Ten Ten has the ability to kill every character in the Narutoverse with a kunai to the head but it does not mean she will be able to. 
You're re-iterating your point about Naruto's techs which I have already addressed. 



> 2. genjutsu is irrelevant b/c kurama can break naruto out.



The point of the genjutsu is not to permanently detain Naruto but to provide them time to physically constrain him or seal his chakra while he is breaking out of the genjutsu, at which point he would be physically immobilized. This doesn't require a massive amount of time, 3 seconds should be more than enough to do this. 

Breaking out of a genjutsu is not instantaneous, although jinchurikis can do this with ease, it will take a few seconds for them to realise that they're in a genjutsu and for the tailed beast to break them out. 



> naruto can create a dozen+ clones which can spam rasengan variants and mini BD out the wazoo.



Has already been addressed.



> Naruto may not have blitzed anyone but he has kept up with very fast opponents "Ei, sandaime, V2 jins, ect..." and he can use his chakra arms to tag opponents from angles where they can't dodge like he did against Muu and sandaime


.

Addressed. Please refer to my post regarding Tsunade and Katsuyu's role in the match-up.



> I don't see how the sannin expect to kill naruto?



I did not say once that they would kill Naruto while in KCM mode. Jiraiya and Orochimaru both have techniques which can effectively seal his chakra. When this happens, he will revert back to base Naruto and will not stand a chance.

Otherwise, I'm sure an Ōdama Rasengan amplified with Tsunade's chakra, Katsuyu's acid or Gamayu Endan (among other things) will do it



> there summons can't do much in that regard, oro lacks the fire power...





> nor will jiraiya be able to land rasengan



They are more than capable of killing base Naruto.



> and I doubt tsunade is gunna be able to land a punch



It obvious that you don't read my posts properly, as I have stated that she will take a supplementary role in this fight. 



> How will the even know which naruto is the real one when he has over a dozen clone running around?



As I said, the Sannin party have numerous area of effect jutsus that they can utilise. Not to mention the area a 100% Katsuyu will be able to cover with her acid. 



> I stand corrected, I was under the impression that the katsuyu tsunade used in the sannin battle in part one was katsuyu's full power/size which apparently may be wrong. Either way tsunade appears to lake the chakra to summon the full sized katsuyu and she has never done so in the manga, so lets refrain from making assumptions here.



The condition of the match up allows for Tsunade to summon Katsuyu at 100% if she wishes.



> Conditions:
> - jirayia starts in sage mode and has ownership over all of the toad boss summons
> - Tsunade can summon 100% katsuyu if she wants to
> - Oro can ONLY summon Hashirama and Tobirama BUT THEY CAN ONLY USE THE ABILITIES THEY SHOWED AGAINST THE 3RD HOKAGE.
> - Naruto has sealing tags



It's clear that you just went straight in and decided to aimlessly support KCM Naruto, without reading previous posts nor the match-up conditions.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 3, 2013)

I'm gunna take up this argument if yall don't mind



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> The logic of A fought B and therefore can fight C is not a very strong argument.
> 
> Firstly, Sandaime Raikage and Mū's fighting styles are very different from Orochimaru and Jiraiya's style. Sandaime relies on Nintaijutsu which means that he has relies on his strength, armour and speed. All of which means that he has to physically assault his opponents. On other hand, Muu's style relies on his kekkei tōta, stealth and flight.



It's only there to counter a hyped based argument, not a feat-based one.

You cannot compare this to SM Jiraiya, who has access to ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjustu, senjutsu, Kuchiyose no Jutsu, as well as collaborative technique. Same with Orochimaru, both have an infinitely larger arsenal displayed than the aforementioned kages. I'm not saying that if these party clashed that the Sannins would win. I merely want to state that their fighting styles are not even in the slightest comparable, therefore just because someone can fight the former doesn't mean they will be as successful with the latter. [/QUOTE]
It's only there to counter a hyped based argument, not a feat-based one.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Secondly, *it's inaccurate that one shadow clone was enough to face off with each of the kage mentioned.* Against Sandaime, the Kage Bunshin had assistance from Ao and the Fourth Division in the battlefield and tactical assistance from Gyūki. Against Mū' , the Kage Bunshin had more substantial assistance in the from of two current kages.


this A>B>C logic again is only there to counter a hype based argument.  In addition to that, the bolded isn't true, the correct phrase you are looking for is not 'face off' it's 'defeat', and we are talking about edo kages who have massive boosts over their real counterparts.  For instance, KCM Naruto's clone would probably have been able to defeat sandaime raikage on his own if he didn't have edo regeneration.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> You seem to be under the impression that they will be tanking these? They won't be. Naruto has never blitzed anyone while performing the above techniques in KCM in the same fashion as the Minato. He usually charges at them, uses his chakra arms or throws them from a distance, giving Jiraiya, Orochimaru and their summons sufficient time to react.


Just because he's never attempted to blitz someone while using those techniques doesn't mean he can't.  In addition to that none of the people you've listed are even remotely close to sandaime raikage's speed, yet he was unable to dodge guided FRS.  So sure they can react, but their chances of dodging are abysmal.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> How is he going to protect his blind spots when Jiraiya and Gamabunta, Orochimaru, Katsuyu are all able to utilise area of effect attacks. All capable of further amplification via Tsunade's chakra.


Tsunade has never ever healed someone with mini katsuyu and she's never powered up anyone with that either.  literally all the people you've mentioned are going to have at least 1 KCM clone to deal with, a clone who's much faster than they are and throws attacks which sandaime raikage can't dodge.  So it's never going to be this 1 vs 4 situation, if anything it's 'how is jiraiya going to protect his bind spots when he has 2 kcm clones who are both faster than him, better sensors are guiding attacks at him?'  Same for all the rest.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> I suggest you revisit the manga before accusing me of using 'arbitrary percentages'. It makes you seem severely uninformed.
> 
> The portion of Katsuyu summoned by Tsunade is without a doubt of the same scale as the tailed beasts. As can be seen in the Sannin showdown, Katsuyu is easily as big, if not bigger than Gamabunta. The same Gamabunta who is roughly the same size as Shukaku and Kurama (bar his tails).
> 
> ...


And KCM Naruto destroys that slug with COFRS considering the attack is as large as gamakichi and the wind sphere to FRS ratio is far greater than 1:20.  Katsuyu is not surviving disintegration on the cellular level and damage that tsunade can't even heal.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> You misunderstood the point of my post. It was intended to show that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are far more versatile (which may be down to better character development) than the Sandaime and Mū. Naruto is all about match-ups, regardless of ranking, one character will always be more effective or less effective against another character.
> 
> I understand that Naruto has speed comparable to Minato but how does this further your argument. *The sheer number of opponents he has to face will overwhelm him.* I have already mentioned how each Sannin and their summon will perform an integral role in taking him down i.e. Katsuyu acting as a telepathic link between the Sannin and all their summon, providing them with virtually no blind spots, and allowing them to intercept or detain Naruto if his target is unable to.


Katsuyu is telepathically linked to each katsuyu, not telepathically linked to the summon on person that they are attached to.  Even if katsuyu has shared vision like pain, she has to first mentally process what's happening (katsuyu), then verbally describe the situation to the person she's helping and then the person has to mentally process and imagine the picture that she's trying to paint for them with words.  That's got nothing to do with covering blind spots like pain or the byakugan does, the response time, accuracy and efficiency is far lower.

Next, the bolded is flat out false as kagebunshins make overwhelming naruto tthrough sheer numbers an impossibility, in fact it would be jiraiya, tsunade and orochimaru who are overwhelmed due to them having to fight more than one kage level bunshin.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> The point of the genjutsu is not to permanently detain Naruto but to provide them time to physically constrain him or seal his chakra while he is breaking out of the genjutsu, at which point he would be physically immobilized. This doesn't require a massive amount of time, 3 seconds should be more than enough to do this.


Naruto has created the most advanced seal bar the one that seals the ten tails.  It's a seal that even surpasses Minato's one, so even if we pretend that orochimaru can seal naruto's KCM, naruto simply undoes orochimaru's seal like jiraiya did.  in addition to that, Orochimaru was able to seal off KN0 part 1 naruto's chakra, which has absolutely nothing to do with sealing KCM Naruto it would only work if you extrapolate that feat to no limits which of course is a no limits fallacy.  In addition to that, 3 seconds is an eternity when fighting KCM Naruto, the hachibi snapped Bee out of genjutsu in less than a split second considering bee only noticed he was in genjutsu after itachi threw his shuriken and was snapped out so quick that he had enough time to deflect them despite the distance they had to travel being only a couple of meters.  Finally, how do they even know which is the real naruto when they are all fighting bunshins?  Answer: they don't.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Breaking out of a genjutsu is not instantaneous, although jinchurikis can do this with ease, it will take a few seconds for them to realise that their in a genjutsu and for the tailed beast to break them out.


Gamarinshou puts you into a genjutsu world, it's not trickery like itachi's, that instantly alerts naruto that he's in genjutsu and allows him to snap out of it just as fast as bee snapped out of itachi's once bee realized he was in it.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> As I said, the Sannin party have numerous area of effect jutsus that they can utilise. Not to mention the area a 100% Katsuyu will be able to cover with her acid.


and all of those jutsu are either too weak to pop a clone, get overpowered by naruto's much more powerful jutsu, or are straight up easily dodged via ei level speed take your pick.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> KCM Naruto wasn't strong enough to break out of Mecha path's wires, or break out of Bjuu coral yet he can automatically break through quicksand from a kage lvl opponent.... sorry if I'm a bit questionable



KCM Naruto was not binded by Demon Realm's wires. As for why he didn't break from the Animal Realm's grip, he was losing his soul - literally.

That Bijuu coral probably has qualities that the Sannin's jutsu don't have.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 3, 2013)

If we scale from _the_ _Shinju's_ _roots_, shouldn't 100% Katsuyu be _much more_ than twenty times the size of a Bijū?


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## richard lewis (Dec 3, 2013)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> You misunderstood the point of my post. It was intended to show that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are far more versatile (which may be down to better character development) than the Sandaime and Mū. Naruto is all about match-ups, regardless of ranking, one character will always be more effective or less effective against another character.
> 
> I understand that Naruto has speed comparable to Minato but how does this further your argument. The sheer number of opponents he has to face will overwhelm him. I have already mentioned how each Sannin and their summon will perform an integral role in taking him down i.e. Katsuyu acting as a telepathic link between the Sannin and all their summon, providing them with virtually no blind spots, and allowing them to intercept or detain Naruto if his target is unable to.
> 
> ...



Naruto's odama FRS is so big I doubt any of the sannin could completely escape the blast radius. If each of naruto's clones chuck an FRS that 12+ FRS comming at the sannin, they can't dodge all of them, rinse and repeat. Naruto can continue to constantly bombard them from all angles with an assault of FRS, giant rasengan, mini BD, ect. The sannin can't do anything to stop him, even if they did manage to catch naruto in frogg song and buy a few seconds how will they know which naruto is the real one and which is a clone? if naruto has 12+ clones that gives them less than a 10% chance of killing the real naruto and I doubt they could destroy all of the clones along with the original b4 breaks out. and this is assuming jiraiya survives long enough to prep SM and them prep frog song. 

Jiraiya and Oro are highly versatile.... whoppdy doo! they still have to counter to a boss sized giant FRS coming at them. Naruto releases a constant onslaught of attacks until the sannin are dead. They have no way of stopping him or slowing him down.


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## richard lewis (Dec 3, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> If we scale from _the_ _Shinju's_ _roots_, shouldn't 100% Katsuyu be _much more_ than twenty times the size of a Bijū?



He wouldn't need to aim FRS at katsuyu he can aim it at the sannin themselves. It's not like all 3 of them can hide inside of katsuyu all the time, they have to come out in order to win anyway. and when the do a boss sized FRS says hello, or 12+ regular sized ones.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 3, 2013)

It was just a general question about the true size of 100% Katsuyu because someone said 5% = Bijū sized.


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## Psp123789 (Dec 3, 2013)

fior fior said:


> Do you realize what that means? Ooro can summon both Tobirama and Hashirama and this fight ends in a brutal murder. Naruto is going to be a yogurt stain on the dirt.


Try reading further dude .


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 4, 2013)

> It's only there to counter a hyped based argument, not a feat-based one.



I respectfully disagree. 

The point of my post was to show that Naruto operates on match ups.  The assumption that due to the fact that a character does well against one character does not mean that he would do well against another of the same 'rank' .



> In addition to that, the bolded isn't true, the correct phrase you are looking for is not 'face off' it's 'defeat', and we are talking about edo kages who have massive boosts over their real counterparts.



I stand corrected as to the use of the term 'face off'. However, it's a useless point to make as it adds nothing to your argument. 

Can you please provide a scan that states that the Edo kages had a 'massive boost'?
To my knowledge Kabuto's edo tensei(s) (bar Madara) were revived to virtually full power and no more. The only boost they received was that Kabuto had greater control of them and could therefore switch from full, partial and no control, using the best option for the circumstances. 



> For instance, KCM Naruto's clone would probably have been able to defeat sandaime raikage on his own if he didn't have edo regeneration



Unlikely, his strongest KCM techniques was not very effective. When Sandaime was hit with FRS, he sustained very minor injuries. I doubt that this would have stopped him even if he was alive. 

​
The KCM kage bunshin on the other hand failed to connect his attack numerous times, and would have dispersed if Dodai wasn't there to protect him after he overexerted himself.



> Just because he's never attempted to blitz someone while using those techniques doesn't mean he can't.



Please refer me to the point in my previous post where I said he couldn't do it.
My argument was that in character, he does not use this ability sparingly and would only use it against speedsters. For example, when the KCM kage bunshin fought Mū and  the Zetzu army, he  doesn't utilize his speed to overwhelm, but prefers to overwhelm with Rasengan variant justus.



> In addition to that none of the people you've listed are even remotely close to sandaime raikage's speed, yet he was unable to dodge guided FRS. So sure they can react, but their chances of dodging are abysmal.



Yes, none of them are as fast as Sandaime. But Sandaime did not have reinforcement to assist him nor did he have justsus  to restrain an incoming opponent. E.g.

JIraiya:
Gama Rinshō, Ranjishigami no Jutsu or Gamaguchi Shibari 

Orochimaru
Sen'ei Tajashu, Jagei Jubaku

Hashirama
Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kōtan



> Tsunade has never ever healed someone with mini katsuyu and she's never powered up anyone with that either.



So what was she doing during the invasion of Pein arc? 
How do you think Katsuyu healed the villagers and the Kages? In order to heal Tsunade channels her chakra to Katsuyu. In regards to chakra transfer, how do you think the Kages chakra got replenished after being demolished by Madara. 

​


> And KCM Naruto destroys that slug with COFRS considering the attack is as large as gamakichi and the wind sphere to FRS ratio is far greater than 1:20. Katsuyu is not surviving disintegration on the cellular level and damage that tsunade can't even heal.



Is this assuming that Katsuyu does nothing to defend herself, or that Hashirima, Tobirama, Jiraiya, Orochimaru and the other summons don't attempt to intercept the attack. Katsuyu can turn her self into slime, akin to Seigetsu, so to definitively claim that she is not surviving disintegration is moot.

​


> Katsuyu is telepathically linked to each katsuyu, not telepathically linked to the summon on person that they are attached to. Even if katsuyu has shared vision like pain, she has to first mentally process what's happening (katsuyu), then verbally describe the situation to the person she's helping and then the person has to mentally process and imagine the picture that she's trying to paint for them with words. That's got nothing to do with covering blind spots like pain or the byakugan does, the response time, accuracy and efficiency is far lower.



Apologies, I didn't mean to say that they would be linked telepathically. The point I was trying to convey was that Katsuyu would be able relay communication between all members of the party.
That whole process you outlined is very long-winded and an obvious exaggeration. 
In reference to Pein v Naruto, how long exactly did it take Naruto to "mentally process and  imagine the picture that she's trying to paint" for him when she was advising him about Pein's technique. It doesn't take that long. 

In response to reaction speed, you seem to be under the impression that each party member would only be watching out for themselves. That is not the case. This would be a collaborative effort, he is not fighting them one by one.



> Next, the bolded is flat out false as kagebunshins make overwhelming naruto tthrough sheer numbers an impossibility, in fact it would be jiraiya, tsunade and orochimaru who are overwhelmed due to them having to fight more than one kage level bunshin.



Admittedly, I shouldn't have included the comment about overwhelming Naruto with numbers. I agree that is unlikely.  This is not Naruto and his clones vs Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru. Please review my previous post regarding this. As I've previously mentioned, the clones will be taken out by area of effect attacks.



> Naruto has created the most advanced seal bar the one that seals the ten tails. It's a seal that even surpasses Minato's one.



Fair enough. To seal maybe going too far, but all they need to do is disrupt his chakra and he won't be able to enter any of his modes.  If he does attempt to undo the seal, he will be preoccupied making him more vulnerable. 



> In addition to that, 3 seconds is an eternity when fighting KCM Naruto, the hachibi snapped Bee out of genjutsu in less than a split second considering bee only noticed he was in genjutsu after itachi threw his shuriken and was snapped out so quick that he had enough time to deflect them despite the distance they had to travel being only a couple of meters.



Please provide a scan regarding Gyūki breaking Bī. I didn't get the impression that Bī was placed under a genjutsu from the Manga or Anime. Team Sannin has more than enough technique to restrain Naruto and go for the kill, 3 seconds is enough. 



> Finally, how do they even know which is the real naruto when they are all fighting bunshins? Answer: they don't.


Area of effect jutsus.



> and all of those jutsu are either too weak to pop a clone, get overpowered by naruto's much more powerful jutsu, or are straight up easily dodged via ei level speed take your pick..



​
Too weak? Unlikely. I doubt he can dodge an area that large. 

​
Katsuyu covered a greater distance than that between her and Manda.  Again, I doubt he can escape its vicinity at 5%, nevermind at 100%.


----------



## richard lewis (Dec 4, 2013)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> I respectfully disagree.
> 
> The point of my post was to show that Naruto operates on match ups.  The assumption that due to the fact that a character does well against one character does not mean that he would do well against another of the same 'rank' .
> 
> ...



REALLY! naruto couldn't have beat the raikage when in their first clash he planted an FRS square in his face? GTFO, you have lost all reputation here. and don't give me that crap about him tanking FRS No his body was ripped apart by a weaker fuuton no way he would have survived FRS w/o having been an edo.

No sasuke put bee under a paralysis jutsu No b4 sasuke could even respond bee had already broken it and proceeded to cave sasuke's chest in. naruto should be able to break out of frog song just as fast as bee, the sannin arent doing squat.

Naruto will simply outlast the sannin if the attempt to draw out the fight since he has wayyy more  stamina, so the sannin are the ones who will have to be the aggressors. even if you want to argue that just 1 of naruto clones < raikage 3 clone would definitely beat him. naruto makes 3 clones for each sannin plus the original for extra support and he systematically breaks them down. Oro has absolutely nothing in his arsenal that can threaten naruto, he gets raped. jiraiya and tsunade will give naruto a little more trouble but will ultimately suffer the same fate.


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## ueharakk (Dec 4, 2013)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Can you please provide a scan that states that the Edo kages had a 'massive boost'?
> To my knowledge Kabuto's edo tensei(s) (bar Madara) were revived to virtually full power and no more. The only boost they received was that Kabuto had greater control of them and could therefore switch from full, partial and no control, using the best option for the circumstances. [/SIZE][/FONT]


The phrase that you quoted was "edo kages who have massive boosts over their real life counterparts"

So it's comparing edo kages to living kages, and thus like madara explained edo tenseis have 2 advantages: immortal bodies, unlimited chakra.  Those are the massive boosts.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Unlikely, his strongest KCM techniques was not very effective. When Sandaime was hit with FRS, he sustained very minor injuries. I doubt that this would have stopped him even if he was alive.
> 
> The KCM kage bunshin on the other hand failed to connect his attack numerous times, and would have dispersed if Dodai wasn't there to protect him after he overexerted himself.


Sandaime raikage sustained minor surface injuries, however he was damaged internally by the cellular level damage that FRS also does to its opponents as seen by him not being able to get up until the sealing tags were around him despite only sufferring surface level cracks and emitting little papers.  Contrast that to other edo tenseis who can move even after getting their arms blown off or bisected and it's clear that had he been alive, he would have not been able to fight at 100% for the duration of the match.

Doesn't really matter if Sandaime could dodge the FRS twice, the point is that with naruto's ability to guide and redirect the FRS with his chakra arms, he ultimately can't avoid being hit by the technique.  And dodai never protected the KCM clone as the clone reverted to base when dodai did that so it doesn't apply to the clone while it's in KCM. 




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Please refer me to the point in my previous post where I said he couldn't do it.
> My argument was that in character, he does not use this ability sparingly and would only use it against speedsters. For example, when the KCM kage bunshin fought Mū and  the Zetzu army, he  doesn't utilize his speed to overwhelm, but prefers to overwhelm with Rasengan variant justus.


Naruto had 2 other kage levels assisting him against Muu and the fight was in midair.  He doesn't need to use super speed in order to deal with the zetsu army.  Now unless jiraiya and orochimaru aren't people that super speed wouldn't make a difference against, then he uses it here.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Yes, none of them are as fast as Sandaime. But Sandaime did not have reinforcement to assist him nor did he have justsus  to restrain an incoming opponent. E.g.



Naruto never had any assistance in landing the FRS on Sandaime raikage, so reinforcements factor is out the window.   If Sandaime raikage couldn't even dodge a guided FRS, how are orochimaru and jiraiya going to even have time to use a restraining jutsu, let alone one that's fast enough to catch naruto with it?



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> JIraiya:
> Gama Rinshō, Ranjishigami no Jutsu or Gamaguchi Shibari


by the time gama rinshou activates, Jiraiya would have had to dodge multiple FRS, and the clone just snaps out of it. 
Show that those other techniques are fast enough to catch the clone, and then show how jiraiya deals with another clone attacking him while he uses that technique to attack one clone.

Orochimaru
Sen'ei Tajashu, Jagei Jubaku[/QUOTE]
english please and show how those techniques are going to be able to catch the clone.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Hashirama
> Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kōtan


a base clone dealt with a much more powerful version of this than edo hashirama used.  Naruto sends a FRS right through it and it ends Hashirama while he sits there and grows his tree.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> So what was she doing during the invasion of Pein arc?
> How do you think Katsuyu healed the villagers and the Kages? In order to heal Tsunade channels her chakra to Katsuyu. In regards to chakra transfer, how do you think the Kages chakra got replenished after being demolished by Madara.





Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> ​


Yeah none of those katsuyus in the pain arc were 'mini katsuyus' if you go back and reread, they were all at least as big as a human, and I doubt jiraiya or oro are going to fight with a human-sized slug wrapped around themselves.  




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Is this assuming that Katsuyu does nothing to defend herself, or that Hashirima, Tobirama, Jiraiya, Orochimaru and the other summons don't attempt to intercept the attack. Katsuyu can turn her self into slime, akin to Seigetsu, so to definitively claim that she is not surviving disintegration is moot.
> 
> ​


This is assuming that KCM Naruto has used bunshins who are currently dealing with those you've mentioned.  Katsuyu has not shown the ability to turn into slime akin to suigetsu, as that would require that she can divide herself into water sized particles.  No, all she's shown the ability to do is split small enough that she looks like goo, and that's not evidence that claims she can split into pieces smaller than human cells.  And lets pretend that she can split so well it's basically hydrification.  Well, she still gets destroyed by the FRS since suigetsu while in a lake was defeated by a bijuudama merely passing through him, that's a force that's magnitudes weaker than the wind sphere of a FRS.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Apologies, I didn't mean to say that they would be linked telepathically. The point I was trying to convey was that Katsuyu would be able relay communication between all members of the party.
> That whole process you outlined is very long-winded and an obvious exaggeration.
> In reference to Pein v Naruto, how long exactly did it take Naruto to "mentally process and  imagine the picture that she's trying to paint" for him when she was advising him about Pein's technique. It doesn't take that long.



that's completely different.  She's giving him information about pain's abilities, and she's doing it while he has some distance to travel.  That requires much much less information and interpretation that describing what is happening on the battlefield well enough that it gives your comrade a visual.  Give pain katsuyu instead of his shared vision and human path doesn't stop jiraiya's punch without looking nor does animal path summon the panda before jiraiya's attack hits him.  Relaying that kind of fine positional and detailed information with just words instead of 
a live camera feed is going to take much longer.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> In response to reaction speed, you seem to be under the impression that each party member would only be watching out for themselves. That is not the case. This would be a collaborative effort, he is not fighting them one by one.


Oh then it's the same thing for Naruto, his clones will be watching out for themselves around, so that factor cancels itself out. 



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Fair enough. To seal maybe going too far, but all they need to do is disrupt his chakra and he won't be able to enter any of his modes.  If he does attempt to undo the seal, he will be preoccupied making him more vulnerable.


Simply disrupting naruto's chakra won't take him out of his modes or prevent him from entering them, and neither will putting a seal that was successful in sealing KN0 on him.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Please provide a scan regarding Gyūki breaking Bī. I didn't get the impression that Bī was placed under a genjutsu from the Manga or Anime.* Team Sannin has more than enough technique to restrain Naruto and go for the kill*, 3 seconds is enough.


*
Bee realizes he's in genjutsu after the crows start flying at him.  The hachibi breaks him out quick enough that he deflects the shurikens hidden in the crows.*
Bolded is something you are arguing for, unless you give some kind of reasoning or evidence to support it, it's just baseless.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Area of effect jutsus.


Please specify what these AoE jutsus are and how they will land on KCM bunshins, how they won't be overpowered by KCM jutsu, or how they won't just be outright tanked by the KCM cloak.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Too weak? Unlikely. I doubt he can dodge an area that large.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


1) He easily can dodge that, Naruto in SM shunshined halfway across konoha in a moment manda dodged that too
2) He doesn't need to dodge it as his KCM cloak that he and his clones posses make him and people with the weaker V1 chakra cloaks immune to *even madara and obito's giant katons*.
3) even if he wasn't fast enough to dodge or durable enough to walk through it, he can defend himself with FRS or giant rasengans as a *normal rasengan was able to protect him from sasuke's roof katon.*



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Katsuyu covered a greater distance than that between her and Manda.  Again, I doubt he can escape its vicinity at 5%, nevermind at 100%.


What are you talking about?  What attack is naruto trying to escape from?


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## Baroxio (Dec 4, 2013)

Bonly said:


> The Queen of Solo, the Itachi of summoning, the killer of Bijuu, the destroyer of two Geniuses, The Great Katsuyu-Sama solos :blindkatsuyu


^ The only true answer. 

Were Grand Katsuya Sama restricted though, Naruto could take it alone.


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 4, 2013)

This Sannin Kunoichi Hokage person is raising my opinion of the sannin w. I had came to this thread thinking naruto soloes in mind.


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## ueharakk (Dec 4, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> This Sannin Kunoichi Hokage person is raising my opinion of the sannin w. I had came to this thread thinking naruto soloes in mind.


but of course you'll never come out and say what points he/she has brought to the table that have raised that opinion of yours.


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 5, 2013)

> but of course you'll never come out and say what points he/she has brought to the table that have raised that opinion of yours.



I have a bad habit of just dropping an opinion and leaving .

The major turning point in my head was that picture of Jiraiya's collaborative katon. What the sannin need most to win against KCM Naruto is a method of dealing with his clones imo. I don't think the clones, as fast as they are, can evade the aoe / expansion speed of that katon. Jiraiya can likely additionally maintain and turn the katon to torch any and every clone.

I don't think just 1 Naruto without his clones is soloing sm jiraiya / orochimaru / tsunade.


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## richard lewis (Dec 5, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> I have a bad habit of just dropping an opinion and leaving .
> 
> The major turning point in my head was that picture of Jiraiya's collaborative katon. What the sannin need most to win against KCM Naruto is a method of dealing with his clones imo. I don't think the clones, as fast as they are, can evade the aoe / expansion speed of that katon. Jiraiya can likely additionally maintain and turn the katon to torch any and every clone.
> 
> I don't think just 1 Naruto without his clones is soloing sm jiraiya / orochimaru / tsunade.



1. if naruto's clones get destroyed why can't he just make more clones?
2. I think this senjutsu could force through jiraiya's katon. mind you that is just one of the 12 clones that naruto initially made to go to different battlefields, that one clone proceeded to make 50+ more clones while the 11 other clones where still fighting on other battlefields.


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 5, 2013)

> This Sannin Kunoichi Hokage person is raising my opinion of the sannin w. I had came to this thread thinking naruto soloes in mind.



Thank you, I'm glad I'm able to do the Legendary Three justice. 



> The phrase that you quoted was "edo kages who have massive boosts over their real life counterparts" So it's comparing edo kages to living kages, and thus like madara explained edo tenseis have 2 advantages: immortal bodies, unlimited chakra. Those are the massive boosts.



That's true. However, Sandaime even when he was alive had enormous chakra reserves and a near invulnerable body (with Raiton no Yoroi)  referred to as the "strongest shield", therefore this advantage would not apply to the same extent in the short run.



> Sandaime raikage sustained minor surface injuries, however he was damaged internally by the cellular level damage that FRS also does to its opponents as seen by him not being able to get up until the sealing tags were around him despite only sufferring surface level cracks and emitting little papers. Contrast that to other edo tenseis who can move even after getting their arms blown off or bisected and it's clear that had he been alive, he would have not been able to fight at 100% for the duration of the match.



I still find it arguable as to whether FRS would actually damage Sandaime if he were alive. 
Edo tensei bodies are logically more fragile that human bodies, due to the fact that it is constructed by material comparable to paper and ash. This is then remedied by infinitely regenerating. Therefore, the 'minor surface injuries' may be due to this, as human's do not crack. We can not definitively state that Sandaime sustained internal injuries, as although I am aware that it's the nature of injury inflicted by the jutsu, it has never collided with someone with Sandaime's level of defence before. Even Naruto in the scan that I've provided is unsure whether damage was actually inflicted.

In reference to your argument regarding his inability to stand up immediately. This may have been because he was staggered due to the impact and fact that the attack was unexpected .



> Doesn't really matter if Sandaime could dodge the FRS twice, the point is that with naruto's ability to guide and redirect the FRS with his chakra arms, he ultimately can't avoid being hit by the technique. And Dodai never protected the KCM clone as the clone reverted to base when Dodai did that so it doesn't apply to the clone while it's in KCM.



I feel that I'm not truly able to asses Sandaime's fighting ability based on his feats against the KCM clone. When he fought the KCM kage bunshin, he was under Kabuto's control therefore would not have fought as he would have if he was alive. For example, although reputed to have access to Kuroi Kaminari, he did not utilise this once. 

I didn't say that Naruto needed saving while in KCM. I stated that it was due to overexertion as Naruto thought that it was necessary to attempt to use a mini bijūdama. If he was to fight Sandaime, it is not unlikely that he would attempt to do this again and if he does, he will revert back to base and will not have Dodai there to save him.

To be honest, I don't really want to continue discussion on this as it strays away from the principal topic. I understand its relevance but it is contentious enough to be a stand alone thread.



> Naruto had 2 other kage levels assisting him against Muu and the fight was in midair. He doesn't need to use super speed in order to deal with the zetsu army. Now unless jiraiya and orochimaru aren't people that super speed wouldn't make a difference against, then he uses it here.



Fair enough regarding the comment about airbourne combat. 

Nevertheless, in his brief scuffle with Madara, it would have been more efficient and easier to take the others, enter KCM and evade. Given his speed he would have been capable of this. Instead, he decided to use a more chakra consuming method, and offensively counter with Ōdama Rasengans. 

In addition, when he fought the version 2 Jinchūrikis, he did not use his Minato-esque speed at all, regardless of their formidability.

The only time we have seen him utilise his KCM speed was against the Raikages. For this reason, it is not unreasonable to infer that Naruto only uses his speed as necessary to match his opponents and not to overwhelm. He does not fight in the same manner as Minato or the Raikages.

I am not doubting as to whether he can blitz, I'm doubting his tendency to do so.



> Naruto never had any assistance in landing the FRS on Sandaime raikage, so reinforcements factor is out the window. If Sandaime raikage couldn't even dodge a guided FRS, how are orochimaru and jiraiya going to even have time to use a restraining jutsu, let alone one that's fast enough to catch naruto with it?





> by the time gama rinshou activates, Jiraiya would have had to dodge multiple FRS, and the clone just snaps out of it.



Although I don't agree with the entirety of this post, I do acknowledge that  Gama Rinshō will not be able to intercept a close range attack from Naruto. Nevertheless, as the fight goes on the toads will eventually synchronise their melodies, not that this takes that much time to do. It's far from instantaneous but also far from being sluggish.



> Show that those other techniques are fast enough to catch the clone, and then show how jiraiya deals with another clone attacking him while he uses that technique to attack one clone.



Orochimaru and Jiraiya are vastly more versatile than Sandaime as I've stated numerous times. 
In order for the Sandaime to restrain anyone, he would need to grasp them with his hands or arms. While the two Sannin are able to do with alternative methods, as I've discussed before.


Jiraiya

Method of defence/ intervention whilst using Ranjishigami no Jutsu

1. Zessenbaku (Also works for capture)

*Spoiler*: __ 



​



2. Zessenzan

*Spoiler*: __ 



​



3. Senpō: Kawazu Naki

*Spoiler*: __ 



​



In reference to your point about speed, please refer to my previous points about Naruto's fighting style (i.e. he doesn't perform blitz  attacks against non-speedsters), katsuyu as a means of communication and assistance from party members (the topic of clones will be addressed later). Naruto usually uses chakra arms or simply thrusts his jutsu. These means of attack, although fast, allow a greater chance of interception. Moreover, Sandaime could not evade or defend as he had his back turned. This will not present a similar problem for Jiraya due to Ranjishigami no Jutsu.

Once snared in Ranjishigami no Jutsu, Jiraiya can then use Gamaguchi Shibari, this allow him to trap KCM Naruto or KCM kage bunshin in an environment which is fully under his control, similar to Kabuto's cave. Here, Jiraiya can ensnare his victim to land the finishing blow or leave them to be digested.



> english please and show how those techniques are going to be able to catch the clone.



Sen'ei jashu - Many hidden snake hands


*Spoiler*: __ 



​



These snakes appears from the Orochimaru's sleeve, acting in collaboration each serving a purpose. May it be to create a divergence or to capture the target. This can wrap around Naruto's chakra arm or Naruto himself should he choose to attack head on.

Jagei Jubaku - Binding Snake Glare Spell


*Spoiler*: __ 




​



Like Ranjishigami no Jutsu, this technique does not require any movements or gestures from the user. The victim does not even need to be in his line of sight as the snakes have autonomy. As can be seen when Sasuke utilised them, the jutsu is near instantaneous.


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 5, 2013)

> a base clone dealt with a much more powerful version of this than edo hashirama used. Naruto sends a FRS right through it and it ends Hashirama while he sits there and grows his tree


.

Are you referring to Edo Madara? he used Mokuton for a different purpose than what I have suggested. I'm not saying that it would overwhelm Naruto, but merely restrain him when he's distracted. This is edo Hashirama as you said they have 'immortal bodies'.



> Yeah none of those Katsuyus in the pain arc were 'mini Katsuyus' if you go back and reread, they were all at least as big as a human, and I doubt jiraiya or oro are going to fight with a human-sized slug wrapped around themselves.



I would just like to point out that the Katsuyus used in the Pein arc were 'mini' Katsuyus, as they were all small scale versions of Katsuyu. Moreover, as your stated (which I have referred to below) she was able to split into such a minuscule entities that she appears to have liquefied. Yet all the shinobis have to do is stand on her and they will begin to be healed. If they are able to recover just by making contact with Katsuyu with just the surface area of their soles, then I find unlikely that a mini Katsuyu or two mini Katsuyus on each Sannin ( and larger version on each summon) won't be able to perform this feat.



> Katsuyu has not shown the ability to turn into slime akin to suigetsu, as that would require that she can divide herself into water sized particles. No, all she's shown the ability to do is split small enough that she looks like goo, and that's not evidence that claims she can split into pieces smaller than human cells. And lets pretend that she can split so well it's basically hydrification. Well, she still gets destroyed by the FRS since suigetsu while in a lake was defeated by a bijuudama merely passing through him, that's a force that's magnitudes weaker than the wind sphere of a FRS.



From the manga, it was unclear whether she merely divided herself or did turn into liquid. But as she has not been said to have the ability to utilise the latter ability, I will take your word for it and assume that she did in fact divide into smaller versions.

Again it is still unlikely whether KCM Naruto would be able land a hit on Katsuyu. Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Hashirama, Tobirama and the summons are to intercept his attack. 




> that's completely different. She's giving him information about pain's abilities, and she's doing it while he has some distance to travel. That requires much much less information and interpretation that describing what is happening on the battlefield well enough that it gives your comrade a visual. Give pain Katsuyu instead of his shared vision and human path doesn't stop jiraiya's punch without looking nor does animal path summon the panda before jiraiya's attack hits him. Relaying that kind of fine positional and detailed information with just words instead of
> a live camera feed is going to take much longer.




Katsuyu is not giving them map coordinates but basic notifications i.e. he's behind you, he's moving towards [party member]. It will not take that long to process.


> Oh then it's the same thing for Naruto, his clones will be watching out for themselves around, so that factor cancels itself out.



For this point I would like to refer back to comment above about fighting styles. When has KCM Naruto ever produced KCM clones during battle? Not to disperse them but to use them as companions for the battle that he is currently taking part in? The extent that I've seen him utilise KCM kage bunshins in battle is to provide support for jutsu formation, if that.

Following your logic, he would have used them against Itachi and Nagato and against the V2 jinchūrikis. Moreover, this would mean that Edo Madara would have spammed meteors during the current arc.

Bloodlusted as a character is, they utilise a specific fighting style. For example, when Ei fought Sasuke bloodlusted in his impression that the latter had killed or captured Bī, he still didn't Blitz him with Raiton No Yoroi spear, although it was well within his capabilities.




> Simply disrupting naruto's chakra won't take him out of his modes or prevent him from entering them, and neither will putting a seal that was successful in sealing KN0 on him.



Can you please explain to me how KCM works? My understanding is that he is able to enter this mode by integrating Kurama's chakra into his chakra network. If a seal was put on him disrupting the flow of chakra from Kurama into his chakra network, surely that would cause him complications. Admittedly, perhaps not enough to completely take him out of KCM or prevent him from entering it, but at the least limits his use of his KCM abilities. 



> *Bee realizes he's in genjutsu after the crows start flying at him*. The hachibi breaks him out quick enough that he deflects the shurikens hidden in the crows.
> Bolded is something you are arguing for, unless you give some kind of reasoning or evidence to support it, it's just baseless.



Please re-read the manga. This did not happen. Even in the Anime this did not occur.
This is why I asked for scans to be provided.



> Please specify what these AoE jutsus are and how they will land on KCM bunshins, how they won't be overpowered by KCM jutsu, or how they won't just be outright tanked by the KCM cloak.



I will assume that you responded too fast without reading the entirety of my previous post as this was addressed. However, I'm intrigued as to what defence feats KCM cloak has exhibited. Can you please provide scans?



> 1) He easily can dodge that, Naruto in SM shunshined halfway across konoha in a moment manda dodged that too
> 2) He doesn't need to dodge it as his KCM cloak that he and his clones posses make him and people with the weaker V1 chakra cloaks immune to even madara and obito's giant katons.
> 3) even if he wasn't fast enough to dodge or durable enough to walk through it, he can defend himself with FRS or giant rasengans as a normal rasengan was able to protect him from sasuke's roof katon.



1) Can you please provide a scan for this? I understand he can shunshin a great distance, but half a village? I've re read the Manga and I can't seem to find anything to back up this point. Manda dodged it by burrowing underground, he did not slither out of the range of the jutsu per say, but hid from it. Moreover, Jiraiya will be using a Tsunade amplified version.
2) Where are you getting this from? Can you please refer me to a Manga chapter or provide a scan? Nevertheless, this is katon in combination with oil and will therefore reach a greater temperature.
3) Again, it's not simply katon, it is mixed with oil. 



> What are you talking about? What attack is naruto trying to escape from?



Apologies I thought this was obvious as Katsuyu has only ever use one offensive technique. I'm refering to acid slime. 

Edit: found a typo.


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Hi there, before I start, I'd like to request that you put your images as either spoilers or hyperlink them to text so they don't take up such big portions of the post.  Thank you.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> That's true. However, Sandaime even when he was alive had enormous chakra reserves and a near invulnerable body (with Raiton no Yoroi)  referred to as the "strongest shield", therefore this advantage would not apply to the same extent in the short run.


The chakra reserves I can agree with, the near invulnerable body not so much if he's facing attacks that don't just chip away at his body but actually do damage.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> I still find it arguable as to whether FRS would actually damage Sandaime if he were alive.
> Edo tensei bodies are logically more fragile that human bodies, due to the fact that it is constructed by material comparable to paper and ash. This is then remedied by infinitely regenerating. Therefore, the 'minor surface injuries' may be due to this, as human's do not crack. We can not definitively state that Sandaime sustained internal injuries, as although I am aware that it's the nature of injury inflicted by the jutsu, it has never collided with someone with Sandaime's level of defence before. Even Naruto in the scan that I've provided is unsure whether damage was actually inflicted.



Not really, other than Madara the vast outlier of edo tensei strength, edo tensei bodies were never implied to be more or less durable than human ones.  Dodai was there the whole time and he never noted Sandaime to be less durable than he was in real life, in fact he was surpised that he could take FRS despite long range fuutons being able to canonically damage sandaime when he was alive.
Cracks on edo tenseis can be equated to 'scuff marks' or 'scratches' that the living get when injured.  But even then sandaime did emit papers so we know he was damaged.

I'm not trying to make any definite statements because I don't think anyone can sustain that kind of burden of proof for pretty much any argument.  So I don't subject your arguments to that standard and I don't burden mine with that standard either because neither of us can fullfill that.  However due to the evidence of sandaime not getting up despite barely any visible damage to him, and the fact that FRS doesn't have to mangle the body in order to do cellular damage, i believe that's it's more plausbile than not that sandaime was damaged internally by FRS.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> In reference to your argument regarding his inability to stand up immediately. This may have been because he was staggered due to the impact and fact that the attack was unexpected .


No, FRS envelopes him in a wind sphere so even if he didn't expect the attack he's got plenty of time to mentally process that he's been attacked, I also don't see how the impact of the attack would prevent him from getting up or even moving after the attack is done with him.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> I feel that I'm not truly able to asses Sandaime's fighting ability based on his feats against the KCM clone. When he fought the KCM kage bunshin, he was under Kabuto's control therefore would not have fought as he would have if he was alive. For example, although reputed to have access to Kuroi Kaminari, he did not utilise this once.



I don't see how this would change the outcome of him vs KCM Naruto where he gets hit by FRS.  Using black lightning would be even worse as the FRS would cut right through it and hit sandaime raikage while he's using that technique.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> I didn't say that Naruto needed saving while in KCM. I stated that it was due to overexertion as Naruto thought that it was necessary to attempt to use a mini bijūdama. If he was to fight Sandaime, it is not unlikely that he would attempt to do this again and if he does, he will revert back to base and will not have Dodai there to save him.


Sure if it's KCM Naruto's clone back then against edo sandaime.  However against a living one, FRS would have probably been effective, and if its current KCM Naruto, he wouldn't fail at making the bijuurasengan.....




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Nevertheless, in his brief scuffle with Madara, it would have been more efficient and easier to take the others, enter KCM and evade. Given his speed he would have been capable of this. Instead, he decided to use a more chakra consuming method, and offensively counter with Ōdama Rasengans.



Naruto didn't get enough chakra from Kurama in order to use KCM which is why he's still in base after he gets the chakra



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> In addition, when he fought the version 2 Jinchūrikis, he did not use his Minato-esque speed at all, regardless of their formidability.[/QUTOE]
> That's probably because he was running on such little chakra that he was phasing in and out of that mode and was restricted to using only normal rasengans and chakra arms despite having super durable bijuus as his opponents.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> .
> Are you referring to Edo Madara? he used woodstyle for a different purpose than what I have stated. I'm not saying that it would overwhelm Naruto but merely restrain after being distracted. This is edo Hashirama as you said they have 'immortal bodies'.


How would the result been any different if Madara used the technique to restrain rather than kill?  It doesn't matter if hashirama has an immortal body, Naruto has sealing tags and it takes edos a long time to regen from naruto's attacks.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> .
> I would just like to point out that the Katsuyus used in the Pein arc were 'mini' Katsuyus, as they were all small scale versions of Katsuyu. Moreover, as your stated (which I have referred to below) she was able to split into such a minuscule entities that she appears to have liquefied. Yet all the shinobis have to do is stand on her and they will begin to be healed. If they are able to recover just by making contact with Katsuyu with just the surface area of their soles, then I find unlikely that a mini Katsuyu or two mini Katsuyus on each Sannin ( and larger version on each summon) won't be able to perform this feat.


That's a good point about the surface area, i'll concede that.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> .
> Again it is still unlikely whether KCM Naruto would be able land a hit on Katsuyu. Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Hashirama, Tobirama and the summons are to intercept his attack. [/SIZE][/FONT]


how do they intercept his attack when they have their own opponents to deal with?  If they shift their focus they get ended by the clones.  Naruto can also make a clone or two to defend himself while he makes that attack.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> .
> Katsuyu is not giving them map coordinates but basic notifications i.e. he's behind you, he's moving towards [party member]. It will not take that long to process.


well then if it's limited to that, it's not going to be anywhere near as effective as pain's shared vision or the byakugan.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> .
> For this point I would like to refer back to comment above about fighting styles. When has KCM Naruto ever produced KCM clones during battle? Not to disperse them but to use them as companions for the battle that he is currently taking part in? The extent that I've seen him utilise KCM kage bunshins in battle is to provide support for jutsu formation, if that.



KCM Naruto has never been in a situation where he was both outnumbered and could make KCM clones, in every fight he's been in he either didn't have that ability or outnumbered his opponents from 5 to over 10,000.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> .
> Following your logic, he would have used them against Itachi and Nagato and against the V2 jinchūrikis. Moreover, this would mean that Edo Madara would have spammed meteors during the current arc.


He never had the ability to use them against ether opponent, he wasn't outnumbered in the itachi nagato fight, and when he started to get serious, itachi was already on his team.  




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> .
> Can you please explain to me how KCM works? My understanding is that he is able to enter this mode by integrating Kurama's chakra into his chakra network. If a seal was put on him that disrupting the flow of chakra from Kurama into his chakra network, surely that would cause him complications. Admittedly, perhaps not enough to completely take him out of KCM or prevent him from entering it, but at the least limits his use of his KCM abilities.


Doesn't really matter, orochimaru's seal has been proven to withhold up to KN0 chakra, that's nothing to say that it can seal KCM which is enough to turn kurama emaciated. 



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> .
> Please re-read the manga. This did not happen. Even in the Anime this did not occur.
> This is why I asked for scans to be provided.


I gave you the scans, it's called a hyperlink, you click on the red/underlined text and it brings you to the page I was talking about. * Here's the scan again.* bee only thinks to himself "genjutsu" after the crows fly.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> 1) Can you please provide a scan for this? I understand he can shunshin a great distance, but half a village? I've re read the Manga and I can't seem to find anything to back up this point.



sorry not half a village, *but a pretty good* portion of it.




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Jiraiya will be using a Tsunade amplified version.


unless tsunade is there on jiraiya's back like she was with oonoki it's not going to be amplified through mere katsuyus.  Also, it's gamabunta who she has to amplify not jiraiya since gama is the one who provides the oil.



Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> 2) Where are you getting this from? Can you please refer me to a Manga chapter or provide a scan? Nevertheless, this is katon in combination with oil and will therefore reach a greater temperature.


The giant katon is simply a katon, it's only created via katon + oil, so it's not any more potent than a normal katon of that size.
*And here's the scan where KCM Naruto and shrouded alliance members are hit by Madara and Obito's battlefield-wide katon and are completely unharmed.
*




Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Apologies I thought this was obvious as Katsuyu has only ever use one offensive technique. I'm refering to acid slime.


Okay, so what are you trying to say about the slime?  That naruto can't dodge it because it's too wide?


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 6, 2013)

Responding like a professionaaal

Cant spread rep ATM. Lolz.


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## Shinryu (Dec 6, 2013)

4TK Naruto is enough to actually kill Base Jiraiya and Base Orochimaru.Speaking of which he fodderizes Orochimaru without his summons to aid him and even then its possible he could oneshot the boss summons if he can rape Rinnegan summons casually in SM.This means the summons dont mean squat as Naruto could easily kill them without even trying.Remember he is stronger than Pein at this point in time.Now he can casually generate rasenshurikens out of nowhere and I doubt any of the Sannin can live after getting hit with it.He can spawn shadow clones that can fodderize kage level opponents like A.He has evil intent sensory so they could never sneak attack him.Tsunade's Byakugou can only heal her so far.

Seriously he kills them with no difficulty at all he is in another tier of power.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 6, 2013)

Tsunade can pump chakra into her team-mates to increase their ninjutsu's potency significantly. Yomi numa will be colossal in size, Orochimaru can barf up mountains of snakes, while sticky oil blasts, water bullets, and katons will recieve significant boosts too. 

Factor in that all three Sannin are both incredibly durable and resilient, never mind the uber meatshield that is Katsuyu to shield and heal them. SM Jiraiya has sufficient speed to cope with KCM Naruto's rasengans and spar with him to some extent in CQC. The others can take attacks and live.

Rasenshuriken will end them, with knowledge the Sannin will surely try to combat it before it reaches them, though if Naruto makes enough clones they could be screwed. Though the  sheer volume of summons may be enough to keep clones at ba. Furthermore, combination ninjutsu attacks may end Naruto before he gets the opportunity to hit them . . this match could go either way.​​


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## Shinryu (Dec 6, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade can pump chakra into her team-mates to increase their ninjutsu's potency significantly. Yomi numa will be colossal in size, Orochimaru can barf up mountains of snakes, while sticky oil blasts, water bullets, and katons will recieve significant boosts too.
> 
> Factor in that all three Sannin are both incredibly durable and resilient, never mind the uber meatshield that is Katsuyu to shield and heal them. SM Jiraiya has sufficient speed to cope with KCM Naruto's rasengans and spar with him to some extent in CQC. The others can take attacks and live.
> 
> Rasenshuriken will end them, with knowledge the Sannin will surely try to combat it before it reaches them, though if Naruto makes enough clones they could be screwed. Though the  sheer volume of summons may be enough to keep clones at ba. Furthermore, combination ninjutsu attacks may end Naruto before he gets the opportunity to hit them . . this match could go either way.​​



I dont think you get that RM Naruto can fodderize them in seconds do you.The mere fact his kage bunshin can dick around with A is proof he can beat very easily.

Yomi Numa lol Naruto breaks out

Katsuyu gets liquified via rasenshuriken

Manda gets oneshot

Bunta gets oneshot

SM Jiraiya got murked by Pein and needed genjutsu to win against him lol Naruto destroys him

Ma and Pa get blitzed

Orochimaru can be taken out 4TK bijuudama so RM Naruto's rasengan oneshots him and every sannin.


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Dec 7, 2013)

Will be posting a response to you arguments soon. Just haven't had the time to look at your arguments, and there's a lot of them as it's me against the world in this thread.

This is my first/second time debating in the Battledome so I'm still getting used to it all. 


Edit: Sorry about the photos, I've put them under spoiler tags now. Thanks for the tip!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 7, 2013)

Honestly, what can the Sannin do if Naruto uses a FRS this big?


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