# CQC Fight 01: Sage Naruto vs Itachi



## Kyu (Sep 15, 2014)

Inspired by RedChidori's Taijutsu fight series.

*War Arc SM Naruto vs Healthy Itachi*

*Location:* Uchiha Compound
*Knowledge:* Itachi knows everything about Naruto's Sage Mode; Naruto knows what he does in the manga
*Mindset:* BL
*Rules:* 
Combatants begin 3 meters apart from each other.
No Summoning jutsu
No MS
No FRS/COFRS or any other elemental jutsu
No Rasengan variants 
No KCM or Biju Mode
No Genjutsu
No clones for Naruto
Itachi has Kusanagi(Sasuke's)
Naruto is armed with two kunai

*Scenario two*

Same stipulations as Scenario 1 but no weapons. Pure hand to hand.

Can Naruto lay out the Uchiha prodigy or is Itachi too skilled for the young Sage?


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2014)

A 1 meter distance...

Kawazu Kumite GFG.


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## Kyu (Sep 15, 2014)

Edited. Itachi has Sauce's katana btw.


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## Csdabest (Sep 15, 2014)

Itachi wins. He already was able to go toe to toe with a Superior Sage in Kabuto despite Edo tensei not bringing back people to full power.

KCM Naruto>SM Naruto. And Itachi was able to fend off both KCM Naruto and killer Bee in CQC combat. One on one with a Naruto in a weaker form. I just dont see it happening


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## Veracity (Sep 15, 2014)

KCM Naruto( without shunshin) would get trashed by Sage Naruto in CQC.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 15, 2014)

Without it, he'll do alright, and keep up for awhile, and disengage when he's going to lose, but his attacks can't really hurt Naruto, and he'll be hard pressed to even land them against Naruto's sage enhanced reflexes and frog katas.  Meanwhile, it only takes Naruto landing one blow to mess up Itachi.  

With Sasuke's katana Itachi should win, or at least should win sometimes, since he gains reach and lethality for his shots.


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## Bonly (Sep 15, 2014)

Naruto should win more times then not. When it comes to CQC Naruto can use Frog Kata so even if Naruto miss a hit, Itachi will still get hit and with how good his reactions are Naruto could likely dodge/parry most of Itachi's attacks while hurting him badly. A few encounters should be all there is.


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## Sorin (Sep 15, 2014)

Naruto wins, low diff.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 15, 2014)

Naruto wins low diff.

Itachi's kenjutsu isn't great, and Naruto's canonically shown to be able to stop a sword from a kenjutsu user without difficulty.

Frog Katas are GfG.


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## Ghost (Sep 15, 2014)

With* full knowledge and Kusanagi* Itachi can takes this most of the time. Naruto can't keep track who is the real Itachi. Range of Frog Kata is troublesome, but Itachi can manage it.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 15, 2014)

saikyou said:


> With* full knowledge and Kusanagi* Itachi can takes this most of the time. Naruto can't keep track who is the real Itachi. Range of Frog Kata is troublesome, but Itachi can manage it.



No bunshins.


Sasuke's Kusanagi isn't a true Kusanagi as it has been stopped even when raiton was flowing through it, so it can't cut anything...And as I said Naruto can catch it.

Naruto has sage sensing, Itachi can't manage against Frog Katas as when he goes into attack he gets floored.


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## Ghost (Sep 15, 2014)

I see only clones restricted for Naruto.


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## Kai (Sep 15, 2014)

Itachi would never be able to mirror let alone surpass this level of pressure in base, close quarters combat.


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## Ghost (Sep 15, 2014)

How do you even compare that situation to Itachi's high speed bunshin feinting?


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## Kai (Sep 15, 2014)

I wouldn't, because Itachi can't hold a candle to a shrouded 3rd Raikage in CQC. Sure, Itachi is intelligent and reflexive enough to feint, but he does not possess a full package to end a Sage in a CQC fight. To make matters worse, Naruto's Sage durability combined with his healing factor is just a steep hill Itachi would be trying to push his boulder past.

In fact, at the first sight of Frog Katas Itachi would instinctively know to not even get close to Naruto.


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## Itachі (Sep 15, 2014)

Naruto wins this quite easily, I can't see Itachi getting close to Naruto with his Frog Katas.



IchLiebe said:


> Naruto's canonically shown to be able to stop a sword from a kenjutsu user without difficulty.



Could you show me please?


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## Bonly (Sep 15, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Could you show me please?



Here ya go mate. Well at least I believe he's talking about that one


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2014)

But....3-Tome Itachi > Omoi.


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## Itachі (Sep 15, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Here ya go mate. Well at least I believe he's talking about that one



Thanks.

Lol at the panel of Sakura getting kicked.


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## Ghost (Sep 15, 2014)

Kai said:


> I wouldn't, because Itachi can't hold a candle to a shrouded 3rd Raikage in CQC. Sure, Itachi is intelligent and reflexive enough to feint, but he does not possess a full package to end a Sage in a CQC fight. To make matters worse, Naruto's Sage durability combined with his healing factor is just a steep hill Itachi would be trying to push his boulder past.
> 
> In fact, at the first sight of Frog Katas Itachi would instinctively know to not even get close to Naruto.



But Itachi had to protect Kabuto from Sasuke's shuriken. 

Anyways, I think it can go either way.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 15, 2014)

Itachi low difs.
What the fuck, too many restructions on Naruto


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## Kyu (Sep 15, 2014)

Modifying the op one last time. Gave Itachi his sister's sword so he'd have something to combat Naruto's _Kawazu Kumite_.


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## Legendary Itachi (Sep 15, 2014)

Itachi has no sister. 

And not like a sword can counter an invincible ghost punch really. Itachi will be smart enough to avoid Frog Kata in all costs.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 15, 2014)

Naruto very low difficulty. Invisible force punches pummels Itachi to the ground + frog sensing and durability, Itachi gets stomped.


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## Kyu (Sep 15, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Itachi has no sister.






> And not like a sword can counter an invincible ghost punch really. Itachi will be smart enough to avoid Frog Kata in all costs.



We've only seen Phantom punches work when Nardo's fist is inches away from his foe's face. Itachi slashing with a katana should prevent one of those dangerous strikes from getting close enough to snap his neck.


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2014)

Naruto can casually snap that Katana in half like he did Tendo's Rinnegan Rod.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Naruto can casually snap that Katana in half like he did Tendo's Rinnegan Rod.



Just as casually as Itachi can stick it through his skull.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 15, 2014)

With a katana, Itachi wins nearly 100% of the time. 
He's more skillful, reflexive and probably faster than Sage Naruto. Naruto only has the power in his strikes going for him, which Itachi would know to avoid with full knowledge. The likelihood of one landing is quite low in this case.


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## JuicyG (Sep 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Just as casually as Itachi can stick it through his skull.





King Itachi said:


> With a katana, Itachi wins nearly 100% of the time.
> He's more skillful, reflexive and probably faster than Sage Naruto. Naruto only has the power in his strikes going for him, which Itachi would know to avoid with full knowledge. The likelihood of one landing is quite low in this case.




The itachi fan force is strong in these two...


If Naruto managed to dodge the 3rd Raikages attack and also counter at the same time, he will have no problem dealing with a base Itachi's sword play.

----------------------------------------

The likelihood of Naruto landing a major blow far exceeds the chances of Itachi landing a fatal blow. Thinking that Itachi has the upper hand is just being bias. Naruto's frog sensing alone would make it very difficult for Itachi to land blows, let alone the frog katas. A single blow from Naruto could possibly end the match here as well. There's no way Itachi can win this.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> The itachi fan force is strong in these two...
> 
> 
> If Naruto managed to dodge the 3rd Raikages attack and also counter at the same time, he will have no problem dealing with a base Itachi's sword play.
> ...



Sasuke did the same to A. And Itachi is faster than Sasuke.

Now what genius ?


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## IchLiebe (Sep 16, 2014)

And Sage Naruto has shown some of the best reaction and sensing feats...Naruto wins hands down, tied behind his back.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 16, 2014)

Itachi has caught a perfect Sage off guard. Won't be a problem this time either.


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## Ghost (Sep 16, 2014)

How is it so easy for Naruto to hit (real) Itachi in midst of the clones when the latter's jutsu execution and switching places with the clones is faster than Naruto can track?


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## richard lewis (Sep 16, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has caught a perfect Sage off guard. Won't be a problem this time either.



Didn't itachi get sliced in half when he attacked kabuto in CQC?

Itachi would never even risk fighting naruto in CQC due to his superior strength and frog kata, so I'm not necessarily saying itachi is weaker but in CQC w/o having access to genjutsu he isn't winning.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 16, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Didn't itachi get sliced in half when he attacked kabuto in CQC?


No he didn't.



> Itachi would never even risk fighting naruto in CQC due to his superior strength and frog kata, so I'm not necessarily saying itachi is weaker but in CQC w/o having access to genjutsu he isn't winning.



Itachi has full knowledge and a weapon that is as equally dangerous to Naruto as Naruto's fists are to him.
Itachi can create clones too, so he'd pretty much low dif Naruto, considering the restrictions on Naruto.


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## SSMG (Sep 16, 2014)

Hmm naruto was able to easily react and counter all of edo itachis cqc attacks.. naruto was able to hold a convo with itachi during this which means he was barely trying.... i think a faster and better reacting verison of naruto will beat itachi due to this.. and frog katas make it a stomp.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2014)

KCM is slower than Sennin Modo outside of Shunshin, as Naruto himself states, due to Sennin Modo sensing. So the very fact that KCM kept up with Itachi tells us Sennin Modo would be too much for him. This ontop of the fact that the way Itachi defended KCM, would resulted in his leg being broken and his neck being broken from Frog Katas. Tells us Itachi stands no chance here. 

Saying he was able to defend one of SM-Kabuto's strikes does nothing to change that because SM-Kabuto did not exhibit the insane enhancement to strength that Toad Sennin Modo grants the user or Frog Katas (and it was one fricking strike, not a prolonged match). This is most likely because Snake Sennin Modo focuses on the mental aspect more than the physical; hence Sasuke being associated with Snake Sennin Modo (and having attributes of it when given Hagoromo's Senjutsu), while Naruto is associated with the Toad Sennin Modo.

Ether way there are very few times when we see one character act precisely in a way that would lead to his downfall, against an enemy he's put up against in the BD; fortunately this is one of those times, and it makes the victor very easy to call.


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## Hachibi (Sep 17, 2014)

ItachiGetSoloed

For the reason everyone already stated.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Hmm naruto was able to easily react and counter all of edo itachis cqc attacks.. naruto was able to hold a convo with itachi during this which means he was barely trying.... i think a faster and better reacting verison of naruto will beat itachi due to this.. and frog katas make it a stomp.



Itachi easily reacted to Naruto's attacks as well. He was also holding a convo and he proceeded to casually evade a blind siding B in the midst of all that.

KCM Naruto is alot faster than SM Naruto, so there is absolutely no way SM naruto could hope to land a hit on Itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 17, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi easily reacted to Naruto's attacks as well. He was also holding a convo and he proceeded to casually evade a blind siding B in the midst of all that.
> 
> KCM Naruto is alot faster than SM Naruto, so there is absolutely no way SM naruto could hope to land a hit on Itachi.



Naruto himself said he had better reactions in SM. Itachi wasn't being held back there due to ET's instructions. His body reacted no matter what he was doing. Naruto was as he had to talk and move simultaneously.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 17, 2014)

Why the fuck is this thread still open? Naruto destroys Itachi in every conceivable way.

A single punch and Itachi dies. Hell, Naruto doesn't even need to connect that punch, as even if Itachi dodges it, he's going to get hit by the natural chakra surrounding Naruto's fist, and get his neck snapped - just like what happened to Preta Path. If Pain's Rinnegan couldn't see natural chakra (only ninja who actively use natural chakra, aka sages like Naruto himself, can even see it in the first place), Itachi sure as hell isn't going to either. He is a dead man, pure and simple - and will be needing a burial soon after this fight.

Itachi may have gone up against Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto and held his own, but it's worth noting that not only was Naruto actively holding back and trying to converse with Itachi more than anything else (hell, he didn't even use his chakra arms against Itachi!), his proficiency in CQC and physical strength (outside of chakra arms at least) are _vastly inferior_ to what he possesses in Sage Mode. Unlike in Sage Mode, Naruto possesses no special Taijutsu style in Nine-Tails Mode, and has even implied that his reflexes are actually _superior_ in Sage Mode, during his clone's fight against the Third Raikage. And his speed has always been consistently better in that mode too.

I mean, Nine-Tails Naruto couldn't even hold up a biju's jaws for more than a few seconds, whereas Sage Naruto was capable of restraining the entire body of a biju-sized Rhinoceros that had been charging at him with enough force to tear up the ground underneath it, before literally tossing it far and high into the stratosphere. So high, that even several seconds later, the Gama Trio needed to jump up an incredible height (while being the same height as biju themselves) in order to attack them, as they were still falling, 

Even if Itachi has Sasuke's Kusanagi, it isn't going to change the outcome any single bit. It's worth noting that Sasuke's Kusanagi isn't the same as Orochimaru's Kusanagi, as it clearly lacks all the special attributes of the latter - which include the ability to extend for miles, split into snakes in order to return to the user if either of them is too far away from the other, and last but not least - its ability to cut or pierce through virtually any substance. Even Enma, whose body is as hard as diamond, outright stated that he'd be feeling sore after a clash with the Kusanagi in weapon form - and in human form, gets cut by the blade when he tries to prevent it from impaling Sarutobi during the latter's fight against Orochimaru. Compare and contrast to Sasuke, who needs to use chakra flow on his so-called Kusanagi just to cut through a mere _kunai_ in Yamato's possession.

Itachi also hasn't demonstrated the ability to use chakra flow (like his younger brother Sasuke could), and is thus left with a pretty regular sword, without any special attributes (other than size, I guess) to differentiate it from the average katana. Yes, Itachi was able to go up against Sage Kabuto and deflect his chakra scalpel strike, but not all sages are created equal. It's worth noting that Sage Kabuto has absolutely no strength feats in the first place, and has never been noted for his physical prowess, unlike Sage Naruto. 

In fact, It seems that Sage Mode _basically makes your strong points stronger,_ as whereas CS2 Jirobou and Kimimaro (both Taijutsu specialists) became physically stronger and tougher, CS2 Kidomaru and Tayuya (long-range fighters) never did. SM Kabuto (who used Genjutsu even in base) became a Genjutsu powerhouse capable of challenging and beating Uchihas, while SM Naruto (always bad at Genjutsu since day one) was still absolutely shit at it and needed Ma and Pa to use their own illusions against Pain. 

Also, Sage Naruto was capable of not only blocking, but also shattering Pain's extremely durable chakra rods with his bare hands - these rods were so incredibly durable, that they damaged every scalpel Shizune used to extract just a simple sample of them (and scalpels, I may add, can be _very durable_, and it is not at all uncommon for them to be made of substances such as _diamond and titanium_). Yet they not only failed to pierce Naruto's skin, but they also broke on contact with his bare hands alone.

It's also worth noting that these chakra rods were durable enough to display resistance when struck by Nine-Tails Naruto's Rasengan, subsequently  forcing him to use _two_ of these Rasengan just to destroy one of these rods quickly and reliably enough. If Sasuke's sword makes contact with Sage Naruto's fists, it would probably suffer the same fate as Pain's chakra rods and shatter on contact, while doing absolutely no damage to Naruto whatsoever. And a single hit, direct or indirect, crushes Itachi like a big fat bug. 

I'm sorry, but this is a horrible mismatch. 

Naruto absolutely brutalizes Itachi, end of story. 

Mods, _please_ lock this thread.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Naruto himself said he had better reactions in SM.


He said that after he ran out of KCM. So he was comparing SM to his base, not to KCM.
KCM obviously gives him better reactions and most certainly more body speed.



> Itachi wasn't being held back there due to ET's instructions.


Naruto "holding back" is fanfiction.



> His body reacted no matter what he was doing. Naruto was as he had to talk and move simultaneously.



Shinobi can hold a conversation and fight @ the same time. This isn't real world, wake the fuck up.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 17, 2014)

^It's already obvious to anyone reading the manga that Sage Naruto has better speed and reflexes than his base counterpart, so Naruto comparing his Sage Mode abilities to those of his base form is pretty redundant. And as far as feats go, Sage Naruto _completely blows Nine-Tails Naruto out of the water,_ in speed and reflexes both - save some highly rare and inconsistent displays of speed from the latter. Nine-Tails Naruto struggled to hit or evade Version 2 Jinchuriki that Kakashi had no issues hitting or evading.

On the other hand, Kakashi was unable to tag the Asura Path with his Raikiri (his fastest physical attack), even though the latter wasn't using its rocket boots, whereas Sage Naruto blitzed Asura with its rocket boots activated, while cutting it off from finishing its sentence. Going by A > B > C logic, Sage Naruto > Kakashi > Nine-Tails Naruto in speed.


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## Amol (Sep 17, 2014)

While Itachi is decent in CQC , genjutsu is his forte.
Naruto wins without any doubt.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 18, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> ^It's already obvious to anyone reading the manga that Sage Naruto has better speed and reflexes than his base counterpart, so Naruto comparing his Sage Mode abilities to those of his base form is pretty redundant. And as far as feats go, Sage Naruto _completely blows Nine-Tails Naruto out of the water,_ in speed and reflexes both - save some highly rare and inconsistent displays of speed from the latter. Nine-Tails Naruto struggled to hit or evade Version 2 Jinchuriki that Kakashi had no issues hitting or evading.


SM Naruto doesn't  come close to KCM in speed, so I guess for guys like you, stating "reduntant" facts seem pretty essential, otherwise you don't seem get it.




> On the other hand, Kakashi was unable to tag the Asura Path with his Raikiri (his fastest physical attack), even though the latter wasn't using its rocket boots, whereas Sage Naruto blitzed Asura with its rocket boots activated, while cutting it off from finishing its sentence. Going by A > B > C logic, Sage Naruto > Kakashi > Nine-Tails Naruto in speed.


Those two instances are completely irrelevant from each other. Not even going to bother explaining why. Because a guy who has been here for 5 years should have known by now. If you don't, then well, there is nothing I can do to change that.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *SM Naruto doesn't come close to KCM in speed,* so I guess for guys like you, stating "reduntant" facts seem pretty essential, otherwise you don't seem get it.
> 
> *Those two instances are completely irrelevant from each other.* Not even going to bother explaining why. Because a guy who has been here for 5 years should have known by now. If you don't, then well, there is nothing I can do to change that.



You're right, Sage Naruto really doesn't come close to Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto in speed - in fact, most of the time, he's far faster and a hell lot more agile than the latter. Apart from blitzing the Fourth Raikage a grand total of _once,_ Naruto has done absolutely _nothing_ in Nine-Tails Chakra Mode that he couldn't have done in Sage Mode, in terms of speed at least. Hell, even Sage Naruto's _clone_ performed better against the Third Raikage's speed, than the real Naruto in Nine-Tails Chakra Mode did against the Fourth Raikage at his initial speeds - at which point, he was about the same speed as his father the Third. And Itachi may be fast, but he sure ain't _Raikage fast_ by any means.

How are those two instances completely irrelevant from one another, by the way? It's a pretty simple and obvious comparison. Perhaps you actually believe I'm right, but just don't want to admit it? Which is why all you can do is make some random, half-assed statement that makes no sense whatsoever and does absolutely nothing to prove me wrong? 

My point is simple: the Asura Path dodged Kakashi's fastest physical attack (Raikiri) with ease, without utilizing any rocket boots or propulsion to augment his movement speed. Yet, in spite of Asura moving at increased speeds via his rocket boots, Sage Naruto was easily fast enough to tag him and smack him down with his Rasengan, and that too before he could even complete his sentence. That makes him _much_ faster than Kakashi is, and Kakashi is clearly one of the manga's faster characters, as fast as Itachi or faster.

Anyone with a brain can clearly see that's an incredible speed feat, possibly one of the best speed feats in the entire manga. We're talking about Naruto completely eclipsing Kakashi in terms of physical speed - the same Kakashi Hatake that was capable of evading multiple attacks from one of Obito's Version 2 Jinchuriki and launching a counter-attack with enough speed and power to tear all of its chakra arms apart. That shits on anything Itachi has done, speed-wise, especially when you consider the following point.

Keep in mind that any one of these Version 2 Jinchuriki was easily, and I repeat, _easily_ pressuring Naruto in his Nine-Tails Chakra Mode with its speed. Even Base Guy seemed as fast as or faster than Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto in some instances. Outside of Yellow Flash Shunshin shenanigans, I'd even go as far as say that Nine-Tails Naruto isn't much faster than his base form at all, with even KN0 Naruto showing superior speed overall. You're so proud of Itachi keeping up with Nine-Tails Naruto, yet completely neglect the fact that Kakashi didn't just keep up with the latter, he literally _outpaced_ the latter if their respective portrayals against Obito's Jinchuriki are any indication whatsoever.

Let's also not forget that Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto wasn't exactly going all out against Itachi either, and was only trying to talk to him at first, as opposed to fighting him.

And you haven't even debated my other points.


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## SSMG (Sep 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi easily reacted to Naruto's attacks as well. He was also holding a convo and he proceeded to casually evade a blind siding B in the midst of all that.
> 
> KCM Naruto is alot faster than SM Naruto, so there is absolutely no way SM naruto could hope to land a hit on Itachi.



Naruto never attacked itachi.. he just defended himself from itachis attacks. 
itachis body was moving on its own so him having a convo back to naruto isnt the same. naruto had to move his body while having the convo which means he was casually defending against itachi.

And what? its stated that sm has better reactions and speed.. and since we already know sm gives better reactions and speed than his base it must have been about kcm mode.


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## ueharakk (Sep 19, 2014)

both have similar speed and reactions, however itachi is probably more finess while naruto has a massive durability, massive strength/striking advantage, regen, the ability to throw attacks that itachi canʻt even perceive and his precognition extends in all directions not just within his LoS.

With or without katana, naruto should dominate Itachi in CQC just like he dominated pain in CQC despite the later having shared vision and the physical reactions and speed to keep up with people like kakashi.  

Itachi only stalemating KCM Naruto in CQC is even more proof that heʻd be dominated by SM Naruto as KCM Naruto (especially one who doesnʻt want to fight) doesnʻt normally move at his fastest speeds, at best he moves at V1 Ei speeds shown by the speed he constantly uses against Ei and shown by the fact that he considered both Ei and Sandaime to be very fast.  SM Naruto blitzed sandaime raikage, had he fought KCM Naruto he would have had the clear upperhand in a pure taijutsu exchange even if heʻs not throwing ghost punches.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 19, 2014)

The cross-comparisons of speed. Truly the most controversial topic of them all.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> My point is simple: the Asura Path dodged Kakashi's fastest physical attack (Raikiri) with ease



When pure speed/reactions are involved it is made clear by the author. That was not the case.  


As for actual match... I think that Itachi is more _skilled_ in taijutsu(and CQC in general). With a slightly better perception-enhancer in a form of Sharingan(more up to a personal preference really - Naruto's 2-layered sensing that eliminates blind-spots and boosts perception of close-range attacks is awesome also). But he is outclassed in everything else. He can't take any clean hits, he can't even block them. He can't hurt Naruto with normal physical punches and kicks and would have difficulties harming him with weapons. He must also be on a constant look out of ghost-punches which he can't visually perceive. He would also tire earlier(assuming SM time limit is disabled obviously)... Movement speed is roughly equal with maybe slight edge to Itachi - his feats against Killer B and Kabuto were pretty decent.

So Itachi must evade both physical and aura attacks completely while also being in range for his own offense. And land several clean hits to Naruto's vitals using Kusanagi. For which he must outperform SM perks and Naruto's own CQC skills(which are solid also). Itachi's slight advantage in pure tai skill and expertise isn't enough to do all that imo.


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## Sorin (Sep 19, 2014)

Why the hell isn't this thread closed?

3rd raikage who dodged KCM Naruto's FRS twice in CQC was goddamn outmaneuvered by SM Naruto in one swift action. Anything Itachi throws at Naruto is going to get dodged and swiftly countered with a punch to the face/gut/whatever.

Also, Deva was contending with Kakashi in CQC, Kakashi himself would not get blown away by Itachi in CQC, and yet he was freaking mauled both times he came in contact with SM Naruto. 

You must do dome pretty impressive mental ballet to turn this rape into Itachi's favor.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 19, 2014)

Naruto wins with some difficulty, itachi is prolly more skilled in cqc and hand to hand, but naruto's durability and strength make up for his lack of skill.


I could see itachi gaining a upper hand on sage naruto if base genjutsu was allowed or clone feints, as this is how itachi normally gains the upper hand on his opponent by distracting them, then going for a opening but all of those things are restricted here.


he can dodge naruto's moves and attempt to capitalize but sensing would come into play and allow naruto to get himself out of harms way, after a long fight i see naruto ending it with a frog kumite


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 19, 2014)

Itachi has full knowledge here, frog katas aren't a problem. He knows how much they can extend and what he needs to do to avoid em. He certainly has the speed and agility to be able to do so. He can also block Naruto's hits with the katana, most likey a trade Naruto isn't willing to take. 
On the other hand, Naruto is up against someone who reads his movements perfectly, sage or not, sharignan precognition makes a taijutsu battle easy mode. Refer to Sasuke vs Naruto @ Vote.

Itachi can also create clones and use crow summonings if he needs to, which have been proven to be able to mess with a perfect  sages sensory capabilities and leave them momentarily defenseless.

Itachi has a weapon that can kill Naruto if he manages to strike a vital area, or at the very least leave him wounded pretty badly.

Naruto wank train needs to stop. 

I remember the times when people thought KCM Naruto'd shit stomp Itachi with just taijutsu right after Naruto revealed his new power up. Does Kishimoto really need to draw a chapter and show how Itachi dances around SM Naruto just like he did with Naruto & B to burry this terrible fanboy logic as well ? 
Jeez.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 19, 2014)

Wait, clones and summoning aren't restricted?


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has full knowledge here, frog katas aren't a problem. He knows how much they can extend and what he needs to do to avoid em. He certainly has the speed and agility to be able to do so. He can also block Naruto's hits with the katana, most likey a trade Naruto isn't willing to take.
> On the other hand, Naruto is up against someone who reads his movements perfectly, sage or not, sharignan precognition makes a taijutsu battle easy mode. Refer to Sasuke vs Naruto @ Vote.
> 
> Itachi can also create clones and use crow summonings if he needs to, which have been proven to be able to mess with a perfect  sages sensory capabilities and leave them momentarily defenseless.
> ...



What about the strength difference? if itachi blocks a hit, he can still be sent flying much like deva path was.

I though bushins and summoning where restricted?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 19, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Wait, clones and summoning aren't restricted?



Ok the crows are restricted, not the clones though. Which can disperse in to crows and replicate the same thing.
Clones are restricted for Naruto only.



Bkprince33 said:


> What about the strength difference? if itachi blocks a hit, he can still be sent flying much like deva path was.
> 
> I though bushins and summoning where restricted?



Itachi wouldn't block with his hands, but use his katana to do so. Which may end up as badly as Naruto as well. 

Clones are restricted for Naruto.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi wouldn't block with his hands, but use his katana to do so. Which may end up as badly as Naruto as well.
> 
> Clones are restricted for Naruto.



Well considering he blocked kabuto with a katana and kabuto was fine, i think naruto should be good to.
i know he wasn't trying to kill kabuto, but i don't see why that would stop him from cutting his hand.

 even if he blocks naruto with the katana the force from naruto's strength should still send him flying.




Hmmm if clones aren't restricted for itachi it makes it a little harder to decide a winner, the main thing would be if itachi can overload his sensing but how would he do it?


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## SSMG (Sep 19, 2014)

How does itachi block narutos punches with his katana effectively? if he blocks his actual fist the frog katas will still hit itachi and even at that naruto could snap pains chakra rod with his hands so he should be able to snap the katana, if he gets ahold of it. which he should be able to due to superior speed and sm sensing.coupled in with bis shown technique of grabbing a foes sword.

likewise how does itachi hurt sm naruto? Sm naruto fell on rocky spikes from atleast several meters up and wasnt hurt at all.. i see no reason why itachis katana will cut him.

this isnt factoring naruto is going to be dancing around itachi in this fight.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 19, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Well considering he blocked kabuto with a katana and kabuto was fine, i think naruto should be good to.
> i know he wasn't trying to kill kabuto, but i don't see why that would stop him from cutting his hand.
> 
> even if he blocks naruto with the katana the force from naruto's strength should still send him flying.



Kabuto had chakra scapels coated in his hands. The jutsu that turns his hands into surgical razor sharp tools you know ? Why would Naruto be able to do the same thing ? 



> Hmmm if clones aren't restricted for itachi it makes it a little harder to decide a winner, the main thing would be if itachi can overload his sensing but how would he do it?



Same way he did to Kabuto.



SSMG said:


> How does itachi block narutos punches with his katana effectively? if he blocks his actual fist the frog katas will still hit itachi


Just like they hit deva realm after he blocked right * 



> and even at that naruto could snap pains chakra rod with his hands so he should be able to snap the katana, if he gets ahold of it.


Any proof that he can do it ? 



> which he should be able to due to superior speed and sm sensing.coupled in with bis shown technique of grabbing a foes sword.


Naruto isn't faster or more skilled than Itachi. So no, he isn't grabbing Itachi's sword. Itachi on the other hand disarmed and grabbed a perfect sages sword before. 
Food for thought.



> likewise how does itachi hurt sm naruto? Sm naruto fell on rocky spikes from atleast several meters up and wasnt hurt at all.. i see no reason why itachis katana will cut him.


Sasuke's katana > rocks.
Any steel sharp weapon > rocks.



> this isnt factoring naruto is going to be dancing around itachi in this fight.


No he won't.
Also negged because you don't know shit about this manga.


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## Sorin (Sep 19, 2014)

Some arguing about Itachi using the katana like he's on some Killerbee level or shit.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 19, 2014)

Some arguing nothing but just making stupid remarks or shit


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## Sorin (Sep 19, 2014)

I already made my case in my previous post bruh. 

Fact is, Itachi's skill with a katana has never been so impressive, that it allows him to hit SM Naruto. While Naruto outclassed a dude in CQC which is quite above Itachi.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 19, 2014)

*Alex Payne,* feats are what matter most in the Battledome. It doesn't matter if Sage Naruto's speed was never actively hyped,  does that somehow make it any less impressive now? Character statements are secondary to feats, as far as combat goes. Hype can easily be false or based on imperfect knowledge, e.g. Kid Sasuke soloing Zabuza and Haku, or Hagoromo making the current Moon in his own. Guy was never hyped as much as Kakashi was, yet came out AS the stronger shinobi by _miles._ And much, much more.

Don't see what your issue is, anyway. Feats are a huge part of character portrayal, and arguably the most important part, all as far as combat goes, - both in the manga and in the Battledome. Kakashi's speed with the Raikiri has also been hyped and praised by Obito, yet it failed to tag the Asura Path, who in turn was speed blitzed by Sage Naruto.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 19, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> *Alex Payne,* feats are what matter most in the Battledome. It doesn't matter if Sage Naruto's speed was never actively hyped,  does that somehow make it any less impressive now? Character statements are secondary to feats, as far as combat goes.
> 
> Hype can easily be false or based on imperfect knowledge, e.g. Kid Sasuke soloing Zabuza and Haku, or Hagoromo making the current Moon in his own. Guy was never hyped as much as Kakashi was, yet came out the stronger shinobi.
> 
> ...


Kakashi didn't use Raikiri properly - he tried to flank Asura and simply cut him with a sweeping motion. You can see movement lines clearly. Kakashi moved into Asura's "blind spot" first and then swung his hand. Proper speedy Raikiri is a straight dash with a stab - see Kakuzu, Zabuza and Gaiden. He also clearly states the reason why he failed - shared vision. We later saw another speedy fighter(Killer B) failing in a similar fashion against slower targets due to shared vision countering his blind-spots usage.

SM Naruto *never blitzed* Asura Path in actual combat. Stop misusing the term. Dynamic Entry + Pain completely focused on another target. Asura also was in-motion created by propulsion which makes it difficult to change one's trajectory. We later see Fat Pain dodging Naruto's physical punch. When Pain is actually focused and using Shared Vision. What now - Preta >> Asura in speed?


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## SSMG (Sep 19, 2014)

"Just like they hit deva realm after he blocked right *" 
When did pain block sm narutos punches without s/t?

"Any proof that he can do it ?" 
Proof of what? That he can snap pains chakra rod? 

"Naruto isn't faster or more skilled than Itachi. " 
Except for the fact that naruto in a slower and less reactive form was able to effortlessly keep up with a edo itachi in cqc? The kabuto example just means that sm naruto is faster than kabuto.

"Sasuke's katana > rocks. Any steel sharp weapon > rocks."

You mean like when sasukes sword got stuck in rock when he threw it at kabuto? Do you have any examples of sasukes sword(without being enhanced with raiton) cutting through rock ?


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## IchLiebe (Sep 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto had chakra scapels coated in his hands. The jutsu that turns his hands into surgical razor sharp tools you know ? Why would Naruto be able to do the same thing ?


And SM gives Naruto more durability and he has caught a sword barehanded in the manga. Nothing is stopping him from doing that.





> Same way he did to Kabuto.


Yet their sensing ability is different. Naruto was able to sense the entire villages and could distinguish Kakashi's yet couldn't find it. That means that he was actively looking for Kakashi's chakra. So he knows Itachi's chakra and can actively look for it within a reasonable radius and nothing Itachi throws at him can hit him. Fact is that Itachi had a hard time fighting against Kabuto.[/quote]
Naruto isn't faster or more skilled than Itachi. So no, he isn't grabbing Itachi's sword. Itachi on the other hand disarmed and grabbed a perfect sages sword before. 
Food for thought.[/quote]But his reactions are better than Itachi's and yes he is more skilled. Frog Kata is a fighting technique it isn't just about ghost punches. If Itachi keeps running, Naruto can just stand still and wait for Itachi to attack and Naruto counters and ends it much like he did against the Raikage, at the very last moment.



> Sasuke's katana > rocks.
> Any steel sharp weapon > rocks.


Not in this since though. Itachi weakness means that he can't put out as much force as the spires did against Naruto since he fall and gravity increased him momentum.  Not to mention, Naruto will not get hit. He is a perfect sage, unlike Kabuto who still displayed animal characteristics unlike Naruto.





> No he won't.
> Also negged because you don't know shit about this manga.



Oh the irony.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto had chakra scapels coated in his hands. The jutsu that turns his hands into surgical razor sharp tools you know ? Why would Naruto be able to do the same thing ?



didn't naruto fall on spikes from a tremendous height during his training and came out undamaged? 
his sm durability should come into play and allow for a similar feat and even if not i can see naruto allowing himself to get cut so he can land a clear blow or kumite on itachi.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Same way he did to Kabuto.



i don't doubt he could do it with magatama but that's restricted here what will he overload it with?

will be a close fight either way but my main problem with itachi is, i don't see a practical way for him to create a opening on a sensor without genjutsu or something to overload his sensing


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 21, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Kakashi didn't use Raikiri properly - he tried to flank Asura and simply cut him with a sweeping motion. You can see movement lines clearly. Kakashi moved into Asura's "blind spot" first and then swung his hand. Proper speedy Raikiri is a straight dash with a stab - see Kakuzu, Zabuza and Gaiden.



Kakashi also attempted the 'proper speedy' version of Raikiri on the Deva Path, yet the Asura Path was fast enough to intercept it with its own body, even though it was previously lying down on the ground and damaged, and further off from the Deva Path than Kakashi at the time. And it accomplished this speed feat even _without_ its rocket boots. 

So my point still stands.



alex payne said:


> He also clearly states the reason why he failed - shared vision. We later saw another speedy fighter(Killer B) failing in a similar fashion against slower targets due to shared vision countering his blind-spots usage.



The Rinnegan's shared vision doesn't allow you to react to faster attacks, it merely allows you to see attacks coming from your blind spots. It's not like the Sharingan's precognition - they are two _completely different_ things. During the fight against Obito and his Jinchuriki minions, Gyuki remarked that Obito gave his Jinchuriki a Sharingan and a Rinnegan each, to heighten their precognitive abilities and cover their blind spots, _respectively._ And Nagato may have been slower than Bee physically, due to having his legs damaged and crippled by Hanzo at an earlier date, but his reflexes and jutsu speed are a completely different story. Reflexes take precedence over moving speed in this manga.

Also, unless your reflexes are already good enough for dealing with the attack's speed on their own, being able to see the attack coming isn't going to save you from it. Do you think your ability to merely see a light speed laser or a hypersonic speed missile coming at you from behind is going to save you on its own? Absolutely not, you still need to be fast enough to react to either and also get out of the path of either. But unless you have the speed to do so - how are you supposed to avoid it in the first place? Be logical!



alex payne said:


> SM Naruto *never blitzed* Asura Path in actual combat. Stop misusing the term. Dynamic Entry + Pain completely focused on another target. Asura also was in-motion created by propulsion which makes it difficult to change one's trajectory. We later see Fat Pain dodging Naruto's physical punch. When Pain is actually focused and using Shared Vision. What now - Preta >> Asura in speed?



There it is again, the classic 'dynamic entry' cop-out argument. To be honest, your argument doesn't have _any_ merit in this case, as most of the time 'dynamic entries' occur in the manga, they are performed by characters who literally come out of nowhere to attack or intercept someone. I would say Naruto intercepting Sasuke before he could use Sakura's own poisoned kunai to kill her, while coming out of completely nowhere, is a real 'dynamic entry' speed feat. And 'dynamic entry' feats are _still_ speed feats, though they need to be taken with a grain of salt. Kishimoto makes a lot of odd things happen in his own manga, but even he isn't foolish enough to let 'dynamic entry' feats happen _just because_.

This isn't the case for Naruto and the Asura Path, as we clearly saw Naruto's initial position before the Asura Path started flying at Tsunade. He was standing on top of Gamahiro (who was perched on top of his father Gamabunta) and was more or less completely stationary. And Pain completely focusing on another target suddenly makes him completely unable to react to Naruto now? I'm sorry, sir, but you're reaching for straws here. Was he even _completely_ focusing on Tsunade in the first place for that matter?

So much that he forgot _the entire world around him?_ I think not.

You seem to forget the fact that Pain acknowledged Naruto's presence, it's not like he was unaware of Naruto being there or anything. You also ignore the fact that Naruto and the toads were right behind Tsunade, and even if the Asura Path focused on the latter, it still had the benefit of shared vision via the other Pain bodies, who were all staring in that same general direction, and should have been able to see Naruto coming. Or do you seriously believe all of them were _intently focusing on Tsunade and Tsunade alone, while blocking out everything else in the world?_ Even though the only reason why Pain came to the village is because he needed to capture the Nine-Tails residing inside of Naruto?

Also, Tsunade had been brought near the verge of death by using up nearly all of her chakra to heal and protect Konoha from Pain's village-scale Shinra Tensei. She was clearly panting in the scan I provided above, and only mere seconds away from falling comatose. It makes absolutely no sense for Pain to focus so much on a helpless, defenseless woman who is running on empty (as far as stamina is considered) while completely ignoring the Nine-Tails Jinchuriki standing behind her, with three gigantic toad summons and the two toad sages (the ones who previously fought Pain alongside Jiraiya) as allies - with the same Nine-Tails Jinchuriki, I repeat, being Nagato's real target. Nagato even outright states (through the Asura Path) that he has no use for Tsunade and is about to say that he came here for Naruto, before the latter cuts him off with superior speed .

You also ignore the obvious fact that the Asura Path didn't fail to dodge Naruto's Rasengan simply because he was in-motion - which is a purely bullshit argument with nothing to back it up - he simply failed to dodge Naruto's Rasengan because he couldn't react to it. Period. _He wasn't even capable of completing a simple sentence_ before the Sage pounced on him with superior speed. If that's not speed blitzing, then I don't know what is. It's a speed feat in every single way, whether you like it or not. Stop denying reality.

But there's more. It's not difficult at all for moving things to change their trajectory while still being in motion. People do it all the time, when running laps around a park or any other similar area - and for that matter, even missiles (homing missiles specifically) can easily alter their trajectory while they're still in flight. As can pretty much any moving vehicle, be it a car or an airplane. And again, you clearly and completely misinterpret how shared vision works. Shared vision does not increase your reaction time one single bit, it only allows you to see attacks coming from your blind spots - and if you're fast enough - help you avoid them. It's not the same as the Sharingan at all, my friend.

It's been explained well enough in the manga already. Being able to _see_ is *not* the same as being able to _react._

Also, dodging a single punch from Sage Naruto doesn't prove shit, and isn't in any way the same as actually dodging a speed blitz from him. I mean, _Suigetsu_ was able to react to and block a punch from the Fourth Raikage too, I guess you think he could also react to the latter's maximum speed too _(which dodged Sasuke's Amaterasu), am I right?_

Tsunade was capable of toppling one of her Susano'o clones, when a similar one was capable of holding down the Fourth Raikage on its own. I guess that means Tsunade is faster than the Fourth Raikage too, am I right? Just because you land your hits faster in close-quarters combat than the other guy, doesn't mean you're outright faster than the other guy in terms of movement speed. It just means you're more proficient in hand-to-hand combat. Striking speed is not the same as running speed, simple enough.

It's like Bruce Lee and Usain Bolt. One has striking speed, the other has running speed. 

In a fight, Lee owns Bolt with super fast strikes before the latter can react. But in a race, Bolt clearly leaves Lee in the dust, every single time.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And SM gives Naruto more durability


proof it gives him enough durability to stop a blade ?



> and he has caught a sword barehanded in the manga.


Catching and blocking are different things. Everyone can catch a sword with bare hands.



> Yet their sensing ability is different.


Yes, Kabuto's is superior as he can fight blind. Thats a better feat than anything Naruto has ever done.



> Naruto was able to sense the entire villages and could distinguish Kakashi's yet couldn't find it. That means that he was actively looking for Kakashi's chakra. So he knows Itachi's chakra and can actively look for it within a reasonable radius and nothing Itachi throws at him can hit him. Fact is that Itachi had a hard time fighting against Kabuto.


I don't see your point. You just described what Naruto can do with his sensing, which everybody here knows.




> But his reactions are better than Itachi's


No they are not. Naruto's feat against Sandaime raikage is the exact replication of 3 tomoe Sasuke's. Itachi is faster than Sasuke. 



> and yes he is more skilled.


There is actually no evidence for this.



> Frog Kata is a fighting technique it isn't just about ghost punches. If Itachi keeps running, Naruto can just stand still and wait for Itachi to attack and Naruto counters and ends it much like he did against the Raikage, at the very last moment.


Itachi isn't raikage, he won't charge in brainlessly, he can use clones and weapons. He also has sharingan precognition, he'll read Naruto's movements and counter accordingly. 



> Not in this since though. Itachi weakness means that he can't put out as much force as the spires did against Naruto since he fall and gravity increased him momentum.  Not to mention, Naruto will not get hit. He is a perfect sage, unlike Kabuto who still displayed animal characteristics unlike Naruto.


Thats where the durability factor comes in. Rocks basically crumbled under Naruto's momentum. Itachi doesn't need to plunge as hard as that. Steel is more durable than Naruto's skin.



> [Oh the irony.


Its even better coming from you.



Bkprince33 said:


> didn't naruto fall on spikes from a tremendous height during his training and came out undamaged?


I've been over this before. Unless you can prove me that those rocks are more durable and sharper than a steel weapon, this argument holds no weight.



> i don't doubt he could do it with magatama but that's restricted here what will he overload it with?


Crows.
They allowed Itachi to disarm Kabuto and blindside him.



> will be a close fight either way but my main problem with itachi is, i don't see a practical way for him to create a opening on a sensor without genjutsu or something to overload his sensing


Naruto's sensing doesn't make him omnipotent. He is still bound by the restrictions of his body. Also Itachi has ways to exploit or create openings.


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## JuicyG (Sep 21, 2014)

In strictly CQC theres no way Itachi will beat Naruto. Itachi is literally about genjutsu, MS techs and susanoo. Other than that Itachi is more or less a jounin. So we have a jounin sharingan user goin CQC against a Sage user....Come on, anybody who thinks Itachi kills Naruto here is just stuck in the fanboyism 

Naruto wins Mid Diff


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## IchLiebe (Sep 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> proof it gives him enough durability to stop a blade ?



Right here. Scalpels broke against them.



> Catching and blocking are different things. Everyone can catch a sword with bare hands.



. Go try and catch a sword and tell me how it works. It's okay, "hasfhioueqeru" will tell me everything I need to know.



> Yes, Kabuto's is superior as he can fight blind. Thats a better feat than anything Naruto has ever done.



 Naruto closed his eyes to fight Third Raikage. And fought blind against Pain.



> I don't see your point. You just described what Naruto can do with his sensing, which everybody here knows.



Just making sure.



> No they are not. Naruto's feat against Sandaime raikage is the exact replication of 3 tomoe Sasuke's. Itachi is faster than Sasuke.



Sasuke has better speed feats than Itachi. But we'll save that for later. Third was said to have the same speed as Ei. Naruto who beat Ei in speed while using RM switched to SM so he could beat the Third..



> There is actually no evidence for this.



In their taijutsu exchange Naruto blocked everything Itachi did. Naruto wasn't serious and was held back, trying to talk. While for Itachi it was physically impossible to hold back.



> Itachi isn't raikage, he won't charge in brainlessly, he can use clones and weapons. He also has sharingan precognition, he'll read Naruto's movements and counter accordingly.



Itachi isn't as fast or as skilled in taijutsu. Naruto will sense the clones. His sensing is far better than Kabuto and he has danger sensing. When has sharingan precog done anything to someone in Naruto's league. By that logic, Edo Itachi would've trashed Naruto and he couldn't land a hit.



> Thats where the durability factor comes in. Rocks basically crumbled under Naruto's momentum. Itachi doesn't need to plunge as hard as that. Steel is more durable than Naruto's skin.



A fall from 150 feet, means your falling 66 mph. That means a sharp object hit Naruto going that fast and couldn't pierce him. Then Naruto breaking Pain's black rods.



> I've been over this before. Unless you can prove me that those rocks are more durable and sharper than a steel weapon, this argument holds no weight.



If you hit water hard enough, it can tear off your limbs and break every bone in your body.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Right here. Scalpels broke against them.


Those rods didn't break on Naruto's skin. Naruto broke them with his hands.
Learn to read.



> . Go try and catch a sword and tell me how it works. It's okay, "hasfhioueqeru" will tell me everything I need to know.


Catching a blade doesn't involve tanking. them.




> Naruto closed his eyes to fight Third Raikage.


his eyes were open when he landed the hit.



> And fought blind against Pain.


No he didn't. 
Attacking *someone who can't see *in a *confined space i*sn't the equavalent of what Kabuto did.


> Sasuke has better speed feats than Itachi.


No he doesn't.



> Third was said to have the same speed as Ei. Naruto who beat Ei in speed while using RM switched to SM so he could beat the Third..


Naruto didn't switch to SM from KCM. His KCM ran out when he was trying to gather chakra for the bijuudama.

He was in base, and he activated SM.



> In their taijutsu exchange Naruto blocked everything Itachi did. Naruto wasn't serious and was held back, trying to talk. While for Itachi it was physically impossible to hold back.


We've been over this before.
There is absolutely no evidence that Naruto held back.




> Itachi isn't as fast or as skilled in taijutsu.


By feats he is.



> His sensing is far better than Kabuto


completely baseless.



> and he has danger sensing.


What the fuck is that ?



> When has sharingan precog done anything to someone in Naruto's league. By that logic, Edo Itachi would've trashed Naruto and he couldn't land a hit.


Sasuke outmanuevered A with it.
Edo Itachi and Naruto only engaged briefly in mid air, it wasn't a full fledged fight. And KCM Naruto is faster than SM Naruto anyway.



> A fall from 150 feet, means your falling 66 mph. That means a sharp object hit Naruto going that fast and couldn't pierce him. Then Naruto breaking Pain's black rods.


That means the rocks aren't durable enough to withold that momentum. That doesn't transfer to being stabbed by a steel blade.

Deva was also able to break  those rods with one hand. Naruto used 2 to break them.



> If you hit water hard enough, it can tear off your limbs and break every bone in your body.



Actually it is a pretty decent example. 

Try to jump on a water from 6 meters flat on your stomach. And then try to the same but this time dive straight. Guess which one will hurt you more ? 

Water is Naruto. First example is Rocks. Second example is the blade.


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## Garcher (Sep 22, 2014)

Itachi is more skillful than Nardo will ever be. He solos him with his sword


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## IchLiebe (Sep 22, 2014)

^U have feats that suggests even the slightest.

I respond later Grimmy.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Those rods didn't break on Naruto's skin. Naruto broke them with his hands.
> Learn to read.


But skin encompasses all of Naruto's body, so even if he did it with his hands, he would've still got cut, which was not the case. 





> Catching a blade doesn't involve tanking. Pain


And that guy has great reflexes. As if he doesn't catch it fully and it keeps moving he can get cut. You are right doesn't involve tanking, it involves skill and reflexes, the durability part is just an extra bonus.





> his eyes were open when he landed the hit.


And was still able to sense the Raikage with his eyes closed just fine.





> No he didn't.
> Attacking *someone who can't see *in a *confined space i*sn't the equavalent of what Kabuto did.


But Naruto as well couldn't see and had to passively sense for the path. Your right not the equivalent of what Kabuto did, but comparatively it is. Both had to fight blind and sense the opponents location.



> No he doesn't.


Thats your delusion that despite me posting scans you will never believe.





> Naruto didn't switch to SM from KCM. His KCM ran out when he was trying to gather chakra for the bijuudama.


And turned SM on, to be able to react to the Raikage's attack instead of running and defending like they have been.



> He was in base, and he activated SM.


Well of course at that time he had to be in base.





> We've been over this before.
> There is absolutely no evidence that Naruto held back.


No there is no evidence that Naruto was serious, while there is evidence that Itachi didn't hold back. How many rasengans did Naruto use against Itachi? How many techniques did Naruto use against Itachi? 

You know you're wrong. You know Naruto was holding back because if not he would've been serious from the get go and would've been using Rasengan, chakra arms, and everthing else in his arsenal instead of taijutsu which is kinda out of character for Naruto to do wouldn't you say?





> By feats he is.


What feats? Enlighten me plz. Just naruto's little skirmish witht eh cloud ninja imo puts him above anything Itachi showed. Just look at the Bee fight where Bee was pushing Itachi back. Now since Sasuke was able to manage the 7 sword dance somewhat by what you say Itachi should've stole Bee's swords and impaled him...but that isn't what happened, Bee forced Itachi back in CQC.





> completely baseless.


No its not. Kabuto was having to use Nagato's/Itachis'(he had no idea whoms) sensing to track Naruto and Bee, and never showed village level sensing such as Naruto did when he came back to Konoha and actively searched for Kakashi's chakra signature.





> What the fuck is that ?


You know spider man right, you know his spidey senses right? Kinda like that. And we have seen Naruto employ it many times, most notable against the Raikagenaut when he used Sage sensing to dodge at the very last moment possible. You can't refute this.





> Sasuke outmanuevered A with it.


I believe that Sasuke was ligerbombed within the first few moments of that fight, and ended that fight on the ground having to defend himself with Susanoo.

Also it isn't precog, but reading one's movements and making a intellectual choice on what the opponent will do...so enhanced perception. While SM gives the ability of enhanced perception aswell, but Sharingan doesn't give sensing abilities, which is crucial in perceiving the entire battlefield during a fight... So yes Naruto's perceptive abilities are far greater than someone with sharingan.





> Edo Itachi and Naruto only engaged briefly in mid air, it wasn't a full fledged fight. And KCM Naruto is faster than SM Naruto anyway.


yes Kcm is faster but not as reflexive. You're right wasn't a full fledged fight, Naruto didn't even use Rasengan which is OOC.





> That means the rocks aren't durable enough to withold that momentum. That doesn't transfer to being stabbed by a steel blade.


Do we know that it is steel? Also don't know the composition of the rocks so we can't say so for sure. Also NARUTO HAS CANONICALLY STOPPED A SWORD.





> Deva was also able to break  those rods with one hand. Naruto used 2 to break them.


And, deva isn't Itachi.





> Actually it is a pretty decent example.
> 
> Try to jump on a water from 6 meters flat on your stomach. And then try to the same but this time dive straight. Guess which one will hurt you more ?


 yes  you are right. but it depends on the situation. If you are jumping into a shallow pool of water from a significant height, belly flopping will ensure you survive, while diving will break your neck. Also there are rocks and minerals harder than steel and that is why they need diamond tips to drill into some types of rocks instead of steel.





> Water is Naruto. First example is Rocks. Second example is the blade.


no idea where you are going with this.


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## JuicyG (Sep 22, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Itachi is more skillful than Nardo will ever be. He solos him with his sword




Itachi is bottom tier compared to Nardo...please.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Those rods didn't break on Naruto's skin. Naruto broke them with his hands. Learn to read.



Is this a fucking joke? *Skin encompasses all of a person's body,* _including the hands_.

You don't just need to learn how to read.

It's pretty damn obvious that one shouldn't be capable of shattering _the sharp and pointed end_ of an _extremely sharp and durable weapon_ with his or her _bare hands_ and taking absolutely no damage in the process, without being durable enough to avoid getting cut by the sharp, pointed end of said weapon - especially considering that the bladed end of Pain's chakra rod is also the very same end that Naruto broke off with his bare hands. Try blocking a sword strike with your bare hands, and not only is the sword going to take zero damage, your hands are going to be cut, possibly even cut right off from your arms. In Naruto's case, not only did his hands suffer no damage at all (in spite of making contact specifically with the sharp and bladed end of a weapon durable enough to shatter scalpels with ease), _but the rod (especially its pointed end) is what broke off on impact._

If you can't see how that's a feat of extreme durability, there's clearly something wrong with you.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Edo Itachi and Naruto only engaged briefly in mid air, it wasn't a full fledged fight. And KCM Naruto is faster than SM Naruto anyway.



That's absolute bullshit, and you know it. Naruto wasn't trying to fight Itachi so much as talk to him, I thought that was made obvious in the manga. And Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto, outside of one fucking random moment, has always been consistently slower than Sage Naruto. And by his own admission, the latter has better reflexes too.

Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto was having his ass handed to him by Obito's Jinchuriki minions as far as speed and Taijutsu were concerned, whereas Kakashi was able to react to, dodge and counter the latter's attacks just fine. However, Kakashi had issues with the Asura Path's speed (both with, and without its rocket boots), whereas the Asura Path (with its rocket boots active) was decisively blitzed by Sage Naruto _before he could even complete a simple sentence or hurt Tsunade._ Sage Naruto is way faster.

By the way, speed and proficiency in Taijutsu aren't the same thing. Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto hasn't proven to be any better than his base self in Taijutsu, quite honestly, and hasn't given us any reason to believe that's the case either. And even so, Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto also didn't use any *chakra arms* against Itachi, which would've made mincemeat of the latter in CQC. You know, the chakra arms that Naruto can not only fire several of at the same time, but also from nearly any point on his body? 

And with enough strength to restrain one of Son Goku's hands? Those chakra arms are the only thing Nine-Tails Naruto has over his base and Sage incarnations in CQC.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> That means the rocks aren't durable enough to withold that momentum. That doesn't transfer to being stabbed by a steel blade.



Sage Naruto is a hell lot more durable than mere steel, but nice try.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deva was also able to break those rods with one hand. Naruto used 2 to break them.



Any proof of the former? As far as I remember, the Deva Path never broke his chakra rods with his bare hands, and even if he did, that just proves that the Deva Path's physical strength and durability are both extremely high. He was capable of surviving a couple of superpowered hits from Sage Naruto (the same one that snapped chakra rods like twigs and broke them by just brushing his hands with them) without being seriously injured, after all. He also survived Six-Tailed Naruto's Biju Bomb literally exploding in his face, with only damaged clothing and minor burns on his body. Only an idiot would even dare to question Pain's durability after seeing this happen. That is insanely durable.

Even an 'immortal ninja' like Orochimaru admitted that he had no hope of surviving a weaker version of this Biju Bomb (from Four-Tailed Naruto, that is), and said Biju Bomb was also still capable of _completely vaporizing Orochimaru's ultimate defense (three biju-sized steel gates),_ while leaving a large crater in the ground. The fact that the Deva Path took a similar blast head-on with comparatively no damage whatsoever, makes him insanely durable indeed - and since his durability is so high, _and since durability and physical strength originate from the very same body,_ shouldn't he be capable of _outputting blows as strong as the ones he can withstand_ too? Simple logic, my friend.

Considering how damn strong the Human Path (and all of Pain's other bodies, for that matter) were physically - with the Human Path going toe-to-toe with Sage Jiraiya, the Asura Path breaking off Sage Jiraiya's arm with ease and snapping his neck (once he was in base) with equal ease, and with even the Animal Path being strong enough to tank direct hits from Sage Jiraiya without taking any serious damage, in spite of not being suited for direct combat (mainly operating through summons), that just proves Pain is super tough.

All things considered, Naruto should literally _crush Itachi like an insect here_. If he can't use Amaterasu or Susano'o, Itachi is nothing compared to a Sage in terms of power.

*P.S. The Deva Path is physically inferior to Sage Naruto, not stronger or even his equal. *
*
Even a 'blocked kick' from Sage Naruto was capable of smashing through the Deva Path's guard and send him flying across the ground like a ragdoll.*


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Is this a fucking joke? *Skin encompasses all of a person's body,* _including the hands_.
> 
> You don't just need to learn how to read.
> 
> ...




Bro, its about time you retire from posting in BD. Your Alzheimer's keeps getting worse every year.


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## JuicyG (Sep 22, 2014)

Its hard to debate against people who are total bias to one side...its mere futile I suppose.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Bro, its about time you retire from posting in BD. Your Alzheimer's keeps getting worse every year.



Concession accepted, bro. I only really came here to contest Alex Payne's points, because unlike you, he is actually a pretty competent debater and member whom I have respect for. Of course, once I saw the retarded bullshit you were spouting, I had to come in and do something to prevent people from being deluded by it all. And your _*complete fucking inability to contest my points with actual logic, manga feats or even fucking manga statements - as usual - shines through!*_ But what else could I expect of you?

Also, if my posts bother you so much, why bother replying to them at all? You are free to choose not to post.

Or maybe _you_ should retire from the Battledome instead? 

You've been here long enough and are getting progressively more retarded over the day, since your beloved Itachi isn't there in the manga any more.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 22, 2014)

Hmmm...didn't Nagato pierce SM Naruto's body when he dd shoot his black rods causing Naruto to bleed?

Also apart from his performance against Asura realm, SM Naruto doesn't have any more impressive speed feats while KCM Naruto has quite a few.

Regarding SM Naruto VS Itachi I think Naruto may be somewhat faster than Itachi perhaps(though Itachi has a databook stat ranking 5 and was kinda able to blitz Bee), much stronger physically, having more chakra and a perception that is probably around the level of Itachi's sharingan. Taijutsu-wise it is kinda complicated as Itachi's taijutsu was high enough to keep up with Kakashi's who is one of the best taijutsu users in the manga and both have 4,5 in it according to the databook. If Itachi decides to dodge then he may get knocked out like Hunger realm or at least dazed long enough for SM Naruto to land the finishing blow. If Itachi has knowledge of ghost punches and focuses on deflecting SM Naruto's attacks then he stands a chance of putting up a fight. Same with using a blade to block SM Naruto's attacks as he did against SM Kabuto who was strong enough to bisect Itachi with a clean hit.

I say high diff victory for SM Naruto.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I've been over this before. Unless you can prove me that those rocks are more durable and sharper than a steel weapon, this argument holds no weight.



i would say it should at least tell us naruto has beyond normal durability and the kusanagi shouldn't saw threw his hand like butter, i do believe he can be harmed by the sword but naruto can sustain a injury to his hand if it means he will ohko itachi.

he can use a similar stragety he used on kabuto when he was younger.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Crows.
> They allowed Itachi to disarm Kabuto and blindside him.



i concede this point the crows could provide a opening, but i don't think it will be clear enough to ohko naruto, he may be able to score a blow or harm him at the very least with a crow feint tho.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto's sensing doesn't make him omnipotent. He is still bound by the restrictions of his body. Also Itachi has ways to exploit or create openings.



im not saying he's omnipotent, but itachi has about 2 good feint opportunity before naruto catches on to the clone feinting strategy and naruto has a feat of avoiding the third raikage and tagging him.

so the way i see it is, naruto can potentially recover from the feint in time to at least trade with itachi and very likely ohko him at that point.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I know that he has beyond average durability. That in no way indicates that he can stop a blade from harming him.



i believe the blade will harm him, but it won't saw threw him, meaning he can allow himself to be cut, to trade and hit itachi harder.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke's sword penetrated both SM Madara and JJ Madara.



very true if itachi decides to do a stab motion, but that may be easier to dodge for naruto.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats what I am arguing. In no way I said crows guarantee a win. Its just a method Itachi can use to confuse Naruto or exploit an opening, like he did to Kabuto.



i give you that i can see him opening up naruto with a crow feint



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, avoiding Raikage and tagging him doesn't mean anything here. Sasuke was able to do the same, and we've seen how easily Itachi dispatched him in taijutsu in their genjutsu skirmish.



what i am saying is, naruto's ability to react last minute, like the way he reacted to raikage means, it will be harder for itachi to capitalize  after he feints him, itachi can successfully feint him and naruto can see him last minute and avoid a critical blow, or possibly trade, which is how i see it more or less going down, because i don't think naruto can outpace him and score a clean blow without clones so i see him trading blows.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Shinbi don't usually trade hits, unless they are sure they will come out on top. I doubt Naruto can take the risk when Itachi has a weapon that can potentially kill him. So @ the very best case, he may choose to trade and die, or die and take Itachi with him.



naruto has canonically traded hits before on more then one occasion, with superior strength why would he not op for this strategy?


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## ueharakk (Sep 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I
> Again, avoiding Raikage and tagging him doesn't mean anything here. Sasuke was able to do the same, and we've seen how easily Itachi dispatched him in taijutsu in their genjutsu skirmish.


If you want to use genjutsu feats, then:



not that a fight which took place in pure genjutsu should have anything to do with how both shinobi stack up against each other in the real world.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 23, 2014)

Sm naruto obviously wins what can itachi do


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 23, 2014)

Sorin said:


> I already made my case in my previous post bruh.
> 
> Fact is, Itachi's skill with a katana has never been so impressive, that it allows him to hit SM Naruto. While Naruto outclassed a dude in CQC which is quite above Itachi.



Who the heck did naruto outclass in CQC


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> If you want to use genjutsu feats, then:
> 
> 
> 
> not that a fight which took place in pure genjutsu should have anything to do with how both shinobi stack up against each other in the real world.



Unless you have evidence that Itachi somehow made himself more skilled in taijutsu or made Sasuke less skilled, then yes, the genjutsu feats do count. We saw what happened frame by frame, there were no tricks involved.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 24, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> Who the heck did naruto outclass in CQC



The Deva Path and the Third Raikage come to mind. Sage Naruto thoroughly schooled both of them in CQC, albeit in separate instances. This is the same Deva Path that outmaneuvered and tagged Kakashi with a chakra rod in CQC without much effort, and the same Third Raikage that literally ripped through nearly an entire division of ninja with Nin-Taijutsu.


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## Ruse (Sep 24, 2014)

Naruto beats Itachi's ass, I'm not even sure what Itachi can do here seeing as Naruto fell into a bunch of spikes took no damage and broke one of Pain's rods with his bare hands. 

Also what are Itachi's Kenjutsu feats? Seeing as you gave him a sword.


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## Hachibi (Sep 24, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Naruto beats Itachi's ass, I'm not even sure what Itachi can do here seeing as Naruto fell into a bunch of spikes took no damage and broke one of Pain's rods with his bare hands.
> 
> Also what are Itachi's Kenjutsu feats? Seeing as you gave him a sword.



Cutting SM Kabuto's horn


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 24, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Hmmm...didn't Nagato pierce SM Naruto's body when he dd shoot his black rods causing Naruto to bleed?



It was an intimidation tactic on Naruto's part. Nagato even realizes that Naruto let the chakra rod pierce him on purpose, and we know that most of the time, the durability feats shown by most characters can be attributed to flowing chakra through their body. Even in Part I, when Lee (and this is someone who can't even USE Ninjutsu!) blocks Sasuke's strike with his arms, the latter notes upon the chakra in the former's arms. It's possible that Naruto just stopped the chakra flowing through his body, allowing Nagato to seemingly pierce and subdue him at first, and then taking advantage of that moment to shock Nagato into submission by reversing his control back at him. His durability is still legit.

Outside of chakra enhancements, Naruto isn't particularly durable. The only reason Sage Naruto is so strong and so durable is because of the strength of his chakra, which he uses to strengthen his body, like all other shinobi do. It's only because of the sheer strength and nature of his 'Sage' chakra that he is so freaking strong and durable as a Sage.



Arles Celes said:


> Also apart from his performance against Asura realm, SM Naruto doesn't have any more impressive speed feats while KCM Naruto has quite a few.



Sage Naruto blitzed 50% Kurama, when 50% Kurama proved to be too fast for one of Sage Naruto's clones. Yet it was one of these very same clones that outmanuevered the Third Raikage, an immensely fast shinobi, during the last second of the latter's charge - in a similar fashion to Sasuke outmanuevering the Fourth Raikage, the Third's son. It's made even more impressive by the fact that whereas Sasuke was in motion against the Fourth Raikage (and was travelling at great speeds at that), Naruto started from rest.

And Naruto implies that the Third is about the same speed as his son in his initial speed levels.

The Third Raikage also evaded Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto's Rasenshuriken not once, but twice - in spite of the Rasenshuriken having enough speed to cross an entire mountain range in a second - and in spite of the elder Raikage being blinded by the Sun in the first instance and also being in a difficult position in the second instance. He was blitzing his way through an entire division of shinobi from across the world, and looked like a freaking lightning bolt while doing so.

It's also worth noting that A only replicated this 'lightning bolt' speed at his maximum speed levels. 

As for Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto? He crashes into a wall while blitzing Kisame, crashes into a tree while attempting to blitz Black Zetsu, gets bounced around by Obito's Jinchuriki minions when Kakashi is perfectly able to avoid their hits and land hits on them, does much worse against Obito than Base Guy does, and is also outpaced by Sasuke.

Yes, he dodged A's punch that one time. And that too, after failing to get past A's INITIAL SPEED several fricking times. Or do I need to post scans of those too?

As far as I'm concerned, Sage Naruto outspeeds Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto more than half the time. Probably about 7/10 to 8/10 times IMHO.



Arles Celes said:


> Regarding SM Naruto VS Itachi I think Naruto may be somewhat faster than Itachi perhaps(though Itachi has a databook stat ranking 5 and was kinda able to blitz Bee), much stronger physically, having more chakra and a perception that is probably around the level of Itachi's sharingan. Taijutsu-wise it is kinda complicated as Itachi's taijutsu was high enough to keep up with Kakashi's who is one of the best taijutsu users in the manga and both have 4,5 in it according to the databook. If Itachi decides to dodge then he may get knocked out like Hunger realm or at least dazed long enough for SM Naruto to land the finishing blow. If Itachi has knowledge of ghost punches and focuses on deflecting SM Naruto's attacks then he stands a chance of putting up a fight. Same with using a blade to block SM Naruto's attacks as he did against SM Kabuto who was strong enough to bisect Itachi with a clean hit.



Sage Kabuto bisected Itachi with chakra scalpels, not his bare hands. If you look closely, Kabuto's hands are glowing. Do you seriously see Itachi and Sasuke's sword holding off the physical strength of someone who can shatter Pain's chakra rods (durable enough to break actual scalpels with ease, when the latter were used to extract just a small fragment from the former) like twigs and while in motion, toss 100-metre tall rhinoceros summons into the stratosphere and even suplex 50% Kurama, with nothing more than strength? 

And do you seriously see this sword cutting through Sage Naruto, when chakra rods didn't? These rods broke on contact with Naruto's _*bare hands.*_



Arles Celes said:


> I say high diff victory for SM Naruto.



You are entitled to your opinion, but I say no diff victory for Sage Naruto.

*P.S.* To the smelly idiot talking about Sasuke piercing Sage Madara and Juudara with his sword. That's absolute bullshit - Madara clearly _let_ Sasuke stab his arm, in much the same way Naruto let Pain stab him. Though in Madara's case, it may have been out of literal _blood lust_ (we are talking about a guy who wanted to 'feel the fight' after all, even biting himself on purpose and relishing the taste of his own blood, outright _LAUGHING_ in delight at having his blood forced out of his body). He was in _full-blown masochist mode._

Or does anyone TRULY believe that Sasuke's sword is sharper than the Five-Tails's horn or the spikes on the Three-Tails's shell? 

Or Gaara's super-durable gourd sand bullets, powered further by the Shukaku's forest-erasing Fuuton?

I guess you think ALL those would bounce off the Fourth Raikage's Raiton no Yoroi too, am I right? 

Sasuke only cut through Juudara clearly because he was flowing Chidori through his blade, and on top of that, had already gained half of Hagoromo's power by that time, greatly supplementing and enhancing the power of his existing Ninjutsu.  The fact you even bring this example up shows your stupidity. Don't even bother any more.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

Itachi can win with the sword, SM Naruto isn't faster than Itachi and their reactions are on par (Itachi's feats of reacting to Kirin and Mukai Tensei pit him over him a bit imo) with one another. That said Itachi's sharingan, movement speed, and tactics advantage is gonna be alot to deal with, especially with clone game allowed. I'd give the edge to Itachi.

In a bear handed contest, refer to Rocky's post.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi can win with the sword, SM Naruto isn't faster than Itachi and their reactions are on par _(Itachi's feats of reacting to Kirin and Mukai Tensei pit him over him a bit imo__)_ with one another. That said Itachi's sharingan, movement speed, and tactics advantage is gonna be alot to deal with, especially with clone game allowed. I'd give the edge to Itachi.
> 
> In a bear handed contest, refer to Rocky's post.



Itachi didn't simply react to Kirin, he had advance warning that the jutsu was coming, from Sasuke himself. Sage Naruto is faster than Itachi, he was able to surpass Kakashi in speed against the Asura Path in individual performances, the same Kakashi who in turn out-did Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto in individual performances against Obito's Jinchuriki minions, the same Nine-Tails Naruto that went toe-to-toe with Itachi and perfectly reacted to and dealt with his speed. Need scans? Look through the rest of the thread.

Itachi isn't doing shit to Sage Naruto with a mere sword. Unless it's the Sword of Nunoboko, the Sword of Totsuka or maybe even Orochimaru's actual Sword of Kusanagi (the one that actually has its piercing and cutting properties, as well as durability, _hyped_ and shown in full demonstration), a random sword isn't doing jack to someone who can tank the sharpened ends of chakra rods with his bare hands while smashing them to bits, the same rods that break scalpels (like what Kabuto used against Sasuke's Kusanagi, but in physical form) when the latter are used to extract portions of the former. Sage Kabuto's chakra scalpels don't seem any stronger than normal, nor does his physical strength.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 24, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> It was an intimidation tactic on Naruto's part. Nagato even realizes that Naruto let the chakra rod pierce him on purpose, and we know that most of the time, the durability feats shown by most characters can be attributed to flowing chakra through their body. Even in Part I, when Lee (and this is someone who can't even USE Ninjutsu!) blocks Sasuke's strike with his arms, the latter notes upon the chakra in the former's arms. It's possible that Naruto just stopped the chakra flowing through his body, allowing Nagato to seemingly pierce and subdue him at first, and then taking advantage of that moment to shock Nagato into submission by reversing his control back at him. His durability is still legit.
> 
> Outside of chakra enhancements, Naruto isn't particularly durable. The only reason Sage Naruto is so strong and so durable is because of the strength of his chakra, which he uses to strengthen his body, like all other shinobi do. It's only because of the sheer strength and nature of his 'Sage' chakra that he is so freaking strong and durable as a Sage.
> 
> ...



So...you think that Naruto may turn off his SM durability when he wants? I can imagine his durability decreasing when he starts running low on sage chakra but making his skin less resistant at will I'm not sure.

As for blitzing Kurama wasn't it just Naruto fooling the latter with a KB feint and using a surprise attack while Kurama was focused on said KBs? Also I recall SM Naruto barely keeping up with Kurama's speed and have him state how fast is the bijuu.

How durable do you think is SM Naruto? As durable as Ei? As Ei's dad? As PS? I recall when Hundry Realm punched him Naruto's expression did make it look as if it hurt him a little bit. Also we had Asura Realm ripping off SM Jiraiya's arm with ease. I doubt he is truly impossible to hurt. Being unhurt after falling on a stalactite is definitely impressive but I'm not convinced if it really makes him as much of a tank as the 3rd Raikage.

Guess the main problem is that we didn't see much of SM Naruto after the Pain fight except during the short skirmish against the 3rd Raikage or to take out the stakes from the bijuus. SM Naruto's clone looked quite damaged after Madara's meteor despite being protected by Dodai and later we saw how Juubi did dislocate his shoulder.

Granted Itachi is no Madara or Juubi especially since this is a taijutsu fight.

 I could see SM Naruto winning with low to mid diff against Itachi if steel truly is unable to damage him at all...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 24, 2014)

NEWSFLASH: Sasuke's sword is no sharper or tougher than your average kunai.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Itachi didn't simply react to Kirin, he had advance warning that the jutsu was coming, from Sasuke himself.


Kishi made it a point that it didn't matter what anyone did because the moment said person made a move Sasuke would  drop the nuke on them (hence the whole speed stat Kishi gave). Itachi didn't have Susano up until after Kirin began to to come down (highlighted by us seeing the light illuminate the panel with no Susano shown as the initial light begins to touch down). So regardless if he knew, he chose not to use Susano until after it was launched meaning he pulled up susano faster than Kishi's own stat 




> Sage Naruto is faster than Itachi, he was able to surpass Kakashi in speed against the Asura Path in individual performances, the same Kakashi who in turn out-did Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto in individual performances against Obito's Jinchuriki minions,


 No...So much wrong with this terrible argument.
-Sage Naruto is not faster than Itachi. Itachi's feats far surpass Sage Naruto's one good speed feat of blitzing Asura interception style. that is not even close to what Kakashi was facing. Brining kakashi up is irrelvant because he is slower than Sasuke, who in turn is slower than Itachi.

Kakashi outperformed the jin minions with the help of Gai. Kakashi didn't show any speed feats surpassing KCM Naruto. I don't know why you are equating the effect of Kakashi dealing with them better than Naruto, with Kakashi being faster than KCM Naruto lol. 



> the same Nine-Tails Naruto that went toe-to-toe with Itachi and perfectly reacted to and dealt with his speed. Need scans? Look through the rest of the thread.


Once again Kakashi is not faster than KCM Naruto. Kakashi had help and wasn't relying on speed to accomplish anything. KCM Naruto is much faster than SM Naruto or Kakashi, so Itachi keeping up with him and Killer Bee in Cqc is far more impressive.

Like bro, Sasuke is faster than Kakashi. Sasuke's lol blitzed pt. 2 Naruto, and Yamato when they first found him. He then went on to blitz the crap out of diedara who escaped because Sasuke "cut down" Tobi first. He then went on to fight on par with V1 Ei. 



> A random sword isn't doing jack to someone who can tank the sharpened ends of chakra rods with his bare hands while smashing them to bits, the same rods that break scalpels (like what Kabuto used against Sasuke's Kusanagi, but in physical form) when the latter are used to extract portions of the former. Sage Kabuto's chakra scalpels don't seem any stronger than normal, nor does his physical strength.


dude are you fucking stupid?
-Kabuto's chakra rods aren't better than regular scalpels? Pt. 2 Kabuto was able to cut through Yamato's Mokuton... you think a regular scalpel would accomplish that 
On top of this Sage Kabuto's scalpel was being sage enhanced  and on top of that his sage mode was being enhanced by Juugo's cell making him a solar panel for Nature energy. 

So that means not only was his Chakra scalpel being enhanced by his Senjutsu (w/ regular scalpel being able to cut through Mokuton), but his natural strength was being enhanced as well. On top of Kabuto being a battery of Nature energy (making his attacks more potent).

For the second stupid as hell point, not only did Sasuke's sword withstand that impact, but it cut through a freaking Sage who was better at collecting/refining nature energy than Naruto. Sasuke's sword also didn't break after being reflected meters by Yata mirror, for reference Danzo's Kunai lolbroke after simply touching Susano. It clearly isn't a regular sword. Itachi can also fireflow it if he chooses. We already saw Katon hurt Sage Naruto before.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm just going to have to agree with the majority of people on this topic....naruto wins 

I honestly couldn't put an argument together where Itachi has any chance of winning


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2014)

You never have.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 24, 2014)

^That's because I don't overate his abilities to the extreme and I support Itachi a lot more then I ever have in the past


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## ueharakk (Sep 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Unless you have evidence that Itachi somehow made himself more skilled in taijutsu or made Sasuke less skilled, then yes, the genjutsu feats do count. We saw what happened frame by frame, there were no tricks involved.



why is the burden of proof on me?  Since when has itachiʻs genjutsu reflected reality, and why would a fight that involves skill in genjutsu be indicative of oneʻs abilities w/o genjutsu?  If Itachi is more skilled in genjutsu than sasuke, then obviously if they fight with genjutsu, itachi is going to be stronger than Sasuke is.  

So unless you first assert that Sasuke = Itachiʻs skill/prowess in genjutsu and then bring up some positive evidence for itachiʻs abilities in the genjutsu world = his abiliites in the real world vs Sasukeʻs, then you donʻt have an argument.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> why is the burden of proof on me?


Because you are the one making the claim.




> Since when has itachiʻs genjutsu reflected reality,


Since he wanted it to ?



> and why would a fight that involves skill in genjutsu be indicative of oneʻs abilities w/o genjutsu?


Because skill is something you learn and practice. It is impossible to get more skilled without learning anything new or practicing. 
So Itachi can't make himself more skilled in taijutsu, or make someone less skilled. That doesn't even make sense.



> If Itachi is more skilled in genjutsu than sasuke, then obviously if they fight with genjutsu, itachi is going to be stronger than Sasuke is.


Which has nothing to do with their abilities within genjutsu. Itachi had the upperhand as he kept layering genjutsu on top of the other, thats what proves him as being the better genjutsu user, not his taijutsu prowess within the genjutsu. That just proves he is the better Taijutsu user.



> So unless you first assert that Sasuke = Itachiʻs skill/prowess in genjutsu and then bring up some positive evidence for itachiʻs abilities in the genjutsu world = his abiliites in the real world vs Sasukeʻs, then you donʻt have an argument.


I already debunked it.
You can't make yourself more or less skilled.

Also you should look @ the context of their engagement. Kishimoto kept all the genjutsu bits interlaced with reality, to increase suspense. We ought to think whats happening was real. That includes even Tsukiyomi.

Itachi was also testing Sasuke. Cheating, aka making himself stronger than he already was within genjutsu(not sure if thats even possible, was never done before), would beat the purpose.




Complete_Ownage said:


> ^That's because I don't overate his abilities to the extreme and I support Itachi a lot more then I ever have in the past



Yeah yeah.


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## CatnipAvenger (Sep 25, 2014)

I still wonder how Naruto is going to stay SM for the entire fight. While we are at it lets start giving itaci infinite Amaterasus or Gai infinite time in 8 gates. Or Kakashi infinite Kamui. 

Anyway, Naruto wins mid diff. But that happens when one character can go "stage 2" and the other can't. Give Itachi his Susano'o blade and Naruto gets sealed.


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## t0xeus (Sep 25, 2014)

6 pages in a topic that got decided by the first reply. 

Itachi has no defence against Kawazu Kumite and loses hard, he may actually get killed even if genjutsu would be enabled, since 1m distance is simple overkill.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

t0xeus said:


> 6 pages in a topic that got decided by the first reply.
> 
> Itachi has no defence against Kawazu Kumite and loses hard, he may actually get killed even if genjutsu would be enabled, since 1m distance is simple overkill.




Thank you

I deeply appreicate reasonable people like yourself here.


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## ueharakk (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because you are the one making the claim.


oh, so youʻre not making the claim that their abilities in their genjutsu exchange were = to their abilities in the real world?  Well, if thatʻs the case then you donʻt have any argument.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Since he wanted it to ?


based on what did he want it to reflect reality?  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because skill is something you learn and practice. It is impossible to get more skilled without learning anything new or practicing.
> So Itachi can't make himself more skilled in taijutsu, or make someone less skilled. That doesn't even make sense.


Yet itachi can make himself more physically stronger, physically faster and more reflexive which has nothing to do with taijutsu skill.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Which has nothing to do with their abilities within genjutsu. Itachi had the upperhand as he kept layering genjutsu on top of the other, thats what proves him as being the better genjutsu user, not his taijutsu prowess within the genjutsu. That just proves he is the better Taijutsu user.


Since when did Itachi show an upperhand in that genjutsu exchange?  And why does that show that itachiʻs physical abilities within the genjutsu realm = his abilities in the real world?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I already debunked it.
> You can't make yourself more or less skilled.
> 
> Also you should look @ the context of their engagement. Kishimoto kept all the genjutsu bits interlaced with reality, to increase suspense. We ought to think whats happening was real. That includes even Tsukiyomi.
> ...


thatʻs basically a concession on your part as Itachiʻs abilities within his tsukuyomi world have absolutely no bearing on his abilities in the real world.  Are you saying that Itachi lost his arms and legs and was bleeding profusely and cast a jutsu on kid naruto or kid sasuke, itachi would lose or would appear in the genjutsu without arms and legs?  

If itachi wants to push Sasuke to X amount of difficulty, then heʻll give himself the speed, reactions and physical strength in the genjutsu world to push Sasuke to X amount of difficulty.  The exchange had no bearing on reality, else kishi would have had Itachi do something similar in the real world, not get pushed on the defensive and being forced to use tsukuyomi and amaterasu on Sasuke.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 25, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> So...you think that Naruto may turn off his SM durability when he wants? I can imagine his durability decreasing when he starts running low on sage chakra but making his skin less resistant at will I'm not sure.



Considering that pretty much every ninja uses chakra to harden their body parts (at will, obviously), be it for offense or defense - and considering the fact that it is sage chakra which provides Sage Naruto with his awesome durability, yes I do.



Arles Celes said:


> As for blitzing Kurama wasn't it just Naruto fooling the latter with a KB feint and using a surprise attack while Kurama was focused on said KBs? Also I recall SM Naruto barely keeping up with Kurama's speed and have him state how fast is the bijuu.



Sage Naruto's clone was the one who was barely keeping up with Kurama, not Sage Naruto himself. I already provided a scan where Sage Naruto HIMSELF blitzed Kurama with a FRS.



Arles Celes said:


> How durable do you think is SM Naruto? As durable as Ei? As Ei's dad? As PS? I recall when Hundry Realm punched him Naruto's expression did make it look as if it hurt him a little bit.



I would say he is more durable than A, but less durable than the others you mentioned.

Sage Naruto wasn't hurt by the Preta Punch's punch more so than startled by it. And it was timed with the pull of the Deva Path's Bansho Tennin, greatly increasing the amount of force that Narutoo would take. Yet he tanked the punch.



Arles Celes said:


> Also we had Asura Realm ripping off SM Jiraiya's arm with ease. I doubt he is truly impossible to hurt. Being unhurt after falling on a stalactite is definitely impressive but I'm not convinced if it really makes him as much of a tank as the 3rd Raikage.



You don't have to be the Third Raikage to be able to tank basic ninja tools, which Sasuke's sword is no sharper or tougher than. The Asura Path's feat of ripping Sage Jiraiya's arm off is a strength feat for him, not proof of Sage Jiraiya not being durable. Keep in mind that J-Man took a direct headbutt from one of Pain's hundred-metre tall summons and was smashed into a wall, only to emerge with no damage whatsoever.

It just means the Asura Path is several times more powerful than that summon, that's all.

Or is suddenly being damaged by a super-strong attack suddenly proof of you not having super durability yourself? The Third Raikage impaled himself on his own Nukite, I guess that means his durability is super weak, right? Give me a break.

Being immensely durable =/ being impossible to hurt. Get it right.

Yet this same Sage Jiraiya was cleanly pierced and fatally wounded by a chakra rod stab from the Animal Path. The same kind of chakra rod that broke on contact with Sage Naruto's hands. Sage Naruto clearly blows his former master (also in Sage Mode) out of the water in terms of durability, speed and all other physical aspects, primarily because he was able to balance the sage chakra a hell lot better with his other chakra, allowing him to use a lot more of it in combat, instead of wasting a good portion of it into altering his appearance significantly.



Arles Celes said:


> Guess the main problem is that we didn't see much of SM Naruto after the Pain fight except during the short skirmish against the 3rd Raikage or to take out the stakes from the bijuus. SM Naruto's clone looked quite damaged after Madara's meteor despite being protected by Dodai and later we saw how Juubi did dislocate his shoulder.



Madara's meteors obliterated Madara himself and that too through his v2.5 Susano'o. Clones aren't supposed to be durable anyway, they pop with non-fatal hits easily enough. The Juubi is the Juubi, and Naruto reverted to base by the time he hit he ground, after being slapped by the beast's chakra arms. He wasn't injured in Sage Mode. Bad analogies.

Granted Itachi is no Madara or Juubi especially since this is a taijutsu fight.



Arles Celes said:


> I could see SM Naruto winning with low to mid diff against Itachi if steel truly is unable to damage him at all...



Since you and others doubt Sage Naruto's durability so much, let me compare his durability to someone whose durability is NOT underrated quite as much - Kakuzu. With Doton: Domu active, Kakuzu tanked a direct sword strike from Raidou without taking any damage whatsoever, while also cracking (not shattering) Raidou's blade in the process. And that's more of a regular sword to be honest, not an ultra-durable weapon like Pain's chakra rods.

In contrast, Sage Naruto outright shattered the sharpend ends of Pain's chakra rods with his bare hands, in spite of these rods being far more durable and much sharper than any normal sword (including Raidou's own), when a normal sword only cracked on contact with Kakuzu's Domu skin.

At the very least, it means Sage Naruto is at least as durable as a Domu-powered Kakuzu (the same one who is stated to be so durable, that the number of techniques that can breach his skin is close to zero! Dumb hype, of course, but still something worth mentioning), who in turn has confirmed _diamond-level durability_, and is easily capable of tanking conventional ninja tools, ranging from several exploding tags to Raidou's sword.

Thing is, we've never seen Sage Naruto get injured outright, while remaining in Sage Mode throughout the time he took said injury or while he was actively trying to resist injury with his body - so downplaying his durability is a dumb thing to do.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 25, 2014)

I leave for a day or two and this happens.

If you're going to debate, do it with the respect and etiquette you would expect to be applied to yourself, or don't do it at all. I'd hand out punishments, but I'm going to be lenient here and just lock this thread instead since it took me a few days to process all of these.


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